# '79 Spitfire Conversion



## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm converting a 1979 Triumph Spitfire to electric. Seeing the other Spitfire conversions here, it seems to be at least a mildly popular choice. 

For me, when I thought through what donor to pick, I decided I wanted something with some classic style, preferably convertible, 2-seater, and fun to tool around in. I narrowed my options down to 60's to 70's Fiat, Triumph, or MG. 

I looked for a few months for an appropriate donor and finally found this 1979 Triumph Spitfire. It has a relatively decent exterior, non-functioning ICE, and overall was in decent enough condition. (I didn't want to embark on a complete restoration project.)

I began acquiring major components saving them for the day when I would have the time to put into the conversion. I've still got quite a few of the minor components to buy and piece it all together.

I've read most everything I could get my hands on about doing a conversion and I've followed these forums for a while -- which has been an unending source of inspiration, and based on how top-notch the work is in quite a few of the builds, it's also been humbling to watch the masters at work.

Builders like evmetro, steelneck, toddshotrods, favguy, skooler and others have shown me how good a quality, creative build can be. 

And of course the other Spitfire builders, Moltenmetal, ClinkK, Bottomfeeder have provided quite a bit of information on the specifics of converting a Spitfire -- which is extremely helpful!

I see my build being an evolution. I don't see, or necessarily want it to end. I'll get to my first 'completion' point and I'm sure I'll have many ideas on how to make it better. So it will continue to evolve. 

That being said, the design decisions are based on many factors, not the least of which are budget, time available, skills and tools for the mechanical fabrication, etc. 

I've been an electronics engineer for over 30 years, specializing in embedded product design including both the hardware and software. So I just couldn't leave the electronics alone. Along the way, part of my build will be about designing major electronic components of my own for the build, and build in as much style and uniqueness as possible.

I'm a lot less confident on the mechanical fabrication side of the build. I've been a bit of a 'gearhead' my whole life, but it's not my first language. So on this part I tend to plan, plan, plan, plan and re-plan before making a move -- which stretches the timeline.

During the build I welcome all suggestions, comments, etc. that will help. 


Here's the donor. The picture makes it look better than it is, but its certainly not bad.. more on the donor in the next post. 











Pic with the hard-top on. ( I had just moved so lots of boxes in the garage at the time!)










A little more moved in.. but conversion hadn't started yet.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your donor looks beautiful...I suspect you'll be done before me, because mine will continue to consume my life with rust repairs...

Keep us posted! Looking forward to seeing it progress!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Your donor looks beautiful...I suspect you'll be done before me, because mine will continue to consume my life with rust repairs...
> 
> Keep us posted! Looking forward to seeing it progress!


Hey Thanks! I've followed your conversion and really like the direction you're going with it. I'm interested to see how much you like the AC motor.. it should be pretty peppy in a car this light!

On the donor, I'm in Phoenix and this car spent its entire life here in the southwest so there isn't any rust on the exterior. There was a little rust on the interior specifically on the seat frames and under the carpet. It appears that the car took on some water (rain possibly) a few times in its past, but it's so small it's nothing to complain about. 

Also, getting into it, it appears the car has been in a pretty bad accident fairly recently. There is a fair amount of frame work and welding on the front end, and that would also explain the 'insurance adjuster special' quality of the new paint job. 

First pic is of the partially fitted motor that was in the car when I bought it. It's a Ford Zetec that was only partially mounted. The prior owner had attempted to fit this into the car, got partially through the project and had to sell. So first task was to remove it.

There were some modifications to the frame to make room for the Zetec and tranny but it looks like the mods are sturdy enough to not need to be fixed.

Second pic, ICE removed. The firewall was cut up pretty good to make room for the Zetec, so that will need some patching.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hopefully you'll be able to get a few bucks for the ztec engine- I got nothing for ny 20r, but the tranny plate from CanEV saved a heap of time. 

Yous looks to be in very good shape- don't sweat the accident, as the frame is pretty sturdy And easy to fix- you might have minor alignment problems but mine was hard on front tires too so who knows? Don't sweat the firewall either, as there's no more fire risk! You'll be glad to be rid of that 80 pounds of gas behind your back, separated from you by the seat and a piece of vinyl- covered 1/8" pressboard...you'd figure an electric conversion of this car would be far cheaper to insure on that basis alone...

Keep us up to date with the pics- my batteries come soon!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hopefully you'll be able to get a few bucks for the ztec engine- I got nothing for ny 20r, but the tranny plate from CanEV saved a heap of time.
> 
> Yous looks to be in very good shape- don't sweat the accident, as the frame is pretty sturdy And easy to fix- you might have minor alignment problems but mine was hard on front tires too so who knows? Don't sweat the firewall either, as there's no more fire risk! You'll be glad to be rid of that 80 pounds of fans behind your back, separated from you by the seat and a piece of vinyl- covered 1/8" pressboard...you'd figure an electric conversion of this car would be far cheaper to insure on that basis alone...
> 
> Keep us up to date with the pics- my batteries come soon!


Thanks! The frame does look quite sturdy and the work was professionally done so I'm not too worried about it. Yes, the gas tank nearly right behind the seat separated with nothing but the thin pressboard was alarming to see! I don't think I'd want to drive this car in it's original ICE configuration!

What batteries did you order, and how do you plan to mount them? I'm looking at putting most of my batteries up front under the hood with 14 or so mounted where the gas tank was.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

32 x180 Ah Sinopoly cells. Bought it all from CanEV which is an easy option for Canadians- in the US you have more choices without having to worry about paying importation twice. People seem to favour the CALB cells at the moment but CanEV has a lot of Sinopoly cells in service so I'm not concerned. The plan is for 18-20 up front, (The Bumblebee fit 20 so I might try that) plus ten where the gas tank was, and either 2or 4 on either side of the spare. But not doing anything with boxes etc until I have the cells, which should be next week.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I chose a Warp9 motor for my conversion for various reasons. 

After looking into transmission options, and talking to several other Spitfire owners who converted I decided on going with direct-drive on this conversion. This car is very light, the Warp9 has good torque, and going with a traditional transmission + adapter plate/coupler would require a large chunk of change. I've read and have been told that the original Triumph transmission has trouble handling the torque from the Warp9, and I've seen examples of the carnage that can result inside the gear box.

Also, Phoenix is very flat. You have to go looking for a hill around here. The biggest hill I'd have to go up with this car is the freeway on-ramp. Given that, I feel that the disadvantages of going direct drive are small enough to make it a viable option for my particular circumstances. 

So, I did the CAD work for a couple of adapter plates that will let me attach the Spitfire's tailshaft to the Warp9 and had them machined. 









After unbolting the original tailshaft from the transmission, I then bolted the adapters and tailshaft onto the Warp9. I kept the shifter because I'm planning to use it to select Forward, Reverse, or Neutral.









And then put the Warp9 in the car.









View from the interior:









Because I'm in Phoenix, heat is more of a consideration than cold (to put it mildly!) So I put a forced-air arrangement on the Warp9.











Next up... Battery Boxes!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

See, I told you that you'd likely be done before me!

Looking great- but can't imagine that aluminum for those adapter/ mounting plates was all that cheap, given what I was soaked for a 1/4" x29x 16" plate...I wish you well with your direct drive. Definitely wasn't an option for me.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, I'm not so sure about who'll be done first, I've got a long way to go on this one still, and yours is looking well in-hand! With temperatures being what they are, it's hard to get much work done during the summer here. I'm limited right now to getting all the garage work done before about 11am, so the going is a little slow until it cools down.

Yeah, direct drive wasn't my first choice. I read up on the factory trans and it doesn't seem to be the strongest transmission out there . I talked with Daniel Busby (BottomFeeder on this forum) about his experience with his Spitfire/Warp9 conversion. His transmission didn't last very long with the Warp9. I really didn't want to put much effort and money into it if the transmission was iffy for my application.

I looked at fitting a T5 manual at first, then really looked hard at going with a powerglide with direct coupling (no torque converter) and full manual valve body over the last few weeks. Both options would end up being over $1k to complete when clutch(T5), adaptor plate, motor to trans coupling and then a modified drive-shaft to mate with the new trans, are taken into account. 

So I _settled_ for direct drive but may revisit it if I really don't like how it drives. 

I used 1/2" aluminum for these mounts and it ran about $125 for the raw materials. The whole job was less than $200 (barely). Adding in the reversing contactor ~$150 and I'm in for around $350 overall. 

Paul


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Regrettably I think you made the right decision- the original gearbox wasn't even up to the job with the gutless little 1496cc engine originally in the Spitfire- mine had 1/2 tooth out of 1st gear when I got rid of it...Fortunately my Toyota 20R was a 2.2L and the tranny is a pretty robust 5 speed- and one which CanEV had mounting plates and couplings to match. Not cheap- way more expensive than what you paid for your waterjet cut pieces and drilling- but totally headache free. My AC50 is only capable of 120 ft-lbs of torque max so I suppose I could have gone clutchless- but shifts would have been slow and that would likely have robbed some of the fun in driving this car- that was a price I wasn't willing to pay.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I have worked on how to mount my batteries. I've got 48 100ah HiPower cells for this build and did a trial fit with a few bits of angle clamped on. I was working out fit issues, and figuring out how the whole thing should go together. 

I just noticed Moltenmetal posted how he put his front battery box together and it looks great -- I think I'll do that! Great to have another Spitfire conversion going on at the same time!

So, here's a couple pics of the trial fit of the batteries. Looks like I can fit 25 up front. The clearance on the front three is tight but workable. When I do the actual fit I may not include those just to have a little more room up front.










And from a different angle-









Now to go build the battery box(s).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hmm, tight but workable makes me a little nervous about mine...your 100Ah cells aren't as tall as my 180Ah. Looks like you front three end up around the same line as mine. How tall are they, and how close to the hood do they come?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I mentioned in my first post that I've been in embedded electronics hardware and software design and development for more years than I'd like to remember. 

As a result, I just had to build some of my own components for this build. First up, the battery management system! (Doesn't everyone try building one of these?)

Design goals for this:
Distributed BMS - one board per battery
-Safety, Safety, and more safety!!!
--1. BMS must survive improper installation. If this BMS board is installed backwards on a cell .. nothing happens, doesn't work, but isn't damaged either. 
--2. If one fails, the rest of the system including all communications must continue. I used a multi-drop communications system so one failure doesn't phase the rest of the system.
--3. If the cell fails open, there is little damage as in it doesn't catch fire. This is perhaps the worst possible outcome for a BMS board mounted directly to a cell. Full pack current will go thru the BMS board. I've got a self-resetting fuse on this board to help with that.
--4. Any type of catastrophic failure in the system should not damage any other part of the system. On this, no board is electrically connected to the others. This isolates catastrophic failures as much as can be done. Unfortunately, catastrophic failures tend to be, well, catastrophic in their own right.

Other considerations:
-Must use very little current from the battery. This *should* only draw about 5ma at full operation, and I'll write the software to reduce that as the battery charge drops. When the battery starts getting low, this should be able to go down into the micro-amp range by using every increasing sleep/wake cycles to lower the overall draw. 
-Reports both voltage and temperature (of course)..
-Active shunting for pack leveling and to aid with charging
-Because this is an evolution, it must be flexible to meet differing needs and experimentation. 
--Shunt can be configured for 300ma to 1.4a based on how many of the shunting resistors are placed.
--I wanted to boards to be able to be placed in either Positive up, or Negative up position so when they are on a pack, they are all facing the same direction. A simple stuffing option allows for this selection at build time.

And of course, the real reason for building it is I wan't it to look very cool! (More on that after I build the boards and take a couple of pics) 

So, the board was laid out last week, I should have everything in to build up a few on Monday.











Next will be the 'controller' that these talk to, and other items such as a current sensor. 

First cut at the board layout on the current sensor is below. It is designed to sense -800a to +800a so it detects and tracks both discharge and charge. This lets it be used as a state of charge monitor so it can drive a digital 'gas guage'.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Jealous of your electronic skill! Very much looking forward to seeing how this all works out for you!

...and if you get a chance to measure the height of your hood at the corners of your front row of batteries as a double-check on what ClintK of the beautiful Bumblebee Spitfire did for me, that would be wonderful- worrying that I may have to jack the hood again, and that's a look I don't want- been there, done that, didn't like the result. Well, an inch is no problem, but I had it up around 3.5" to fit that 20R in there and it looked [email protected]. But glad I didn't put a scoop in the hood, or I'd be undoing that now!

I noticed an unusual black strip along your bumper line- would that happen to be a piece of weatherstripping missing from my car, or was your hood lifted to fit that VTEC engine? And how did they fit that VTEC engine in there without changing the tranny?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looked up the HiPower cell dimensions- they're around the same as my 180 Ah Sinopolys- 11.1" to top of post. Whew- just put a lot of effort into that box- wouldn't want to have to change it now!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Yes that black strip is weather stripping that gets compressed by the hood when the hood is down. 

On the front most battery clearance, the edge closest to the side of the car has about 1.25" clearance between the top of the battery case and the hood. The battery bolt point stands up about an eighth above that so say 1.125" overall clearance. I say 'about' because with the hood down and the sheet metal in that the batteries are standing on it's tough to really get up in there. So there may be about another 16th of clearance.

HiPower has a couple of different models of the 100ah battery. Mine is the HP-PW-100AH, which is 163x51x278mm.. so just under 11" tall on the case, with the extra height of the bolt at about 11.1".

Weather strip picture:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

On the Zetec engine, the whole thing fit just barely under the hood so the hood wasn't lifted. The engine was mated to a '79 Mustang tranny, and the whole thing was in the car. The tranny though is quite long and doesn't fit the car well (it has a long tailshaft). There would have had to be quite a bit of modification to the drive-shaft tunnel to complete the install. I didn't want to tear it up like that so just removed the whole thing.

When I bought the car, the prior owner still had the old Spitfire tranny and it came with the car.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

When my girlfriend (now wife of 15 yrs) and I moved into our house, my dad and stepmom showed up about 3 days later with a trailer load of stuff from home- including my original Spitfire engine and tranny. We were deep in boxes and renos at the time so I put an ad in the Auto Trader and sold them cheap. Never looked back- no offence to Spitfire restorers, but that stuff was crap! I'm well shot of it. As it turns out, the differential has developed a bad leak, so it will have to come out to have the seals replaced as fluid leaks can be grounds to fail a safety here, so the Leyland demons haven't completely left me yet.

Good luck with your tail shaft- not much to screw up there!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, my BMS boards and components arrived late Monday so I didn't build them until today.

Just a few pics of the build-

Front side of boards after applying solder paste:










Next, back side with components placed in solder paste: (That CPU is a QFN-20 and it is real tricky to get down correctly without using solder paste stencils to apply the paste)












Into the reflow oven they go:












Out of the oven, through hole components attached (only top communications connectors), touched up and loaded my software, then attached to a battery:










And a short video of it in operation as the LED cycles between displaying voltage and temperature. The temp is in C, and I haven't calibrated it yet so it's showing a little bit off. Even though it was a warm day in Phoenix, it wasn't 33 on my workbench!



Next up, board for the main controller that these BMS boards communicate with should be in later this week or maybe early next week... then the fun begins writing the software for the whole system.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Just a quick update... I've been sidetracked this week on a few things so haven't done much work on the car. I've got more circuit boards in and am building up the 'control' unit for my BMS. I should have pics of it up and running in a few days.

I did manage to resolve a few decisions this week that I was agonizing over.. glad to be moving forward... 

-DC-DC Converter, or dedicated Lithium 4-cell pack?
I chose to go with 4cell 60ah LiFePo4 pack for my 12v system. It's more expensive than a cheap DC-DC converter, but not much different than a higher end unit would be for the amount of power it can put out. I picked up a cheap 4-cell charger so this small pack can charge separately from the traction pack.

-Air conditioning
Since it was 115 degrees (in the shade) here when I was making this decision, I was reminded that the Spitfire would be unusable in the summer if I didn't do something about the air conditioning. I researched 12VDC compressors, and that would be a viable option if this car had ever had air. Since this car has none of the other components for air, it would be an expensive proposition. Sooo, I decided to try using a small home window-unit and adapt it to the car... and use an AC 120v inverter to drive it. (I noticed that 'evmetro' was also going this route on his Eldorado build.) The unit I picked has a remote control that lets you handle all the settings, so the main unit doesn't have to be accessible at all. 

-Heating
Nope, decided not to go there. If I move away from Phoenix in the future, I may have to do something about heat. Since it never snows (well twice in the over 40 years I've lived here), and goes below freezing maybe a couple times a year, heating is an option that I can easily do without.

So I got all those parts ordered plus all of the other small parts (contactors, fuses, cables, lugs, etc., etc) this week. Everything should start arriving by the 1st week of August.

In the mean time, I'll have to put some effort into getting the battery boxes built and installed next week!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I got embroiled in getting the electronics designs for my build up and running with a preliminary functioning software version running as well. 

I previously posted about the BMS boards that mount on each battery. This is now the main-controller portion of the system.

First, the boards. I wanted maximum flexibility so I made the boards so they 'stack'. There are a number of signals that go through the stack including a SPI bus, an I2C bus and a few 'interrupt' lines for high-speed stuff. 

In this pic, from left to right, display/touch screen controller, relay controller, and main CPU with CAN bus and serial multi-drop bus connectors.










These boards mount together and pass through all of the bus signals. I can make new boards to add to the sandwich as needed to add functionality.

Here are the boards stacked:









I also made a 3D printed case for this board stack-up. It has a small 'card cage' design so these (and other) boards can slide right in. The LCD mounts above the cage.

Here the boards are in but LCD is not placed yet:









And now the LCD is snapped into place in its mounting posts:









Now with the face-plate attached and powered up to the main screen:










And finally, attached to two of my BMS boards. The BMS boards are attached to bench power supplies in the pic:









Lots more software to write but I'm happy with the progress. 

On the car itself, more parts are coming in so I'll be able to start really pulling it together soon.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

It's been a while since I've had an update. With temperatures down into the 'habitable' range here in Phoenix, I can again get back to work on the car. 

On the BMS, I've finalized the design and built 50 boards. Current draw per battery is 10ma when the LED's are on -- which is only for a few seconds 'on request', only when the hood or trunk are open -- 5ma during 'battery usage' (driving, and charging), and a little less than 50ua (with a once-a-minute wake-up and sample cycle) when not driving or charging.

I got back to the fabrication over the weekend because the temperatures are tolerable again. I'm looking forward to getting the build moving again now!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looking forward to it greatly!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

...just as your temperatures get decent, ours have taken a dive. Think Sunday was very likely the last time this year for a drive...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Finally, now that I can work in the garage the front battery box is in.

Doing final welding of support brackets:











In, with batteries:









Another view:









These batteries aren't all the same width! Most of them are wider at the very top, than the bottom -- usually with the glue that was used to affix the top part to the rest of the battery housing oozing out and making it wider.

Next, rear battery boxes, and another small one in front of this one. Then, take all the boxes out, clean them up, paint them and re-install.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The plastic bodies of the cells are tapered ( it's called a draft) so they can be more easily extracted from a mold when they're made.

You might think about being able to pull the cells from your battery box if they were ever to swell beyond their normal size, as sometimes they do. Maybe have one end that unbolts or have a sliding plate or frame inside one end the box to clamp and un clamp the cells. It could save you from a lot of problems if there's ever a swelling issue.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looks familiar! Very nice progress...

I think with your BMS you're not going to have to worry about swelling too much- but leaving a bit of fit tolerance to be filled with soft goods is a good idea regardless. The box needs to hold the cells securely but it isn't necessary to hold each cell in compression. I had a few issues with excessive weld on the interior corners and had to spend a lot of time grinding...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Looks familiar! Very nice progress...


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! 

I've had to do some grinding but I left a little extra room in the box to begin with so I could physically constrain them with a shim if necessary. I've been concerned about what I've read on battery 'bloat', but expect the BMS to protect them from over or under charge thus reducing the chance of that happening.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I used some strips of rubber and some PVC foam tape to take up the slop between the cells and the sides of the box so things don't vibrate.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

One piece of advice: remove the screw from the spring cover if you're putting a box where the gas tank was, so you can remove the cover without removing the box. Manhandling that box full of cells is tough and there's little clearance to do anything in place when it's in, so I made the box so you can load the cells in from the front. It's not useful though, as you need to pull the box out to attach the cell interconnect straps and BMS boards. I need to add some tabs for a piece of angle to keep the bottom of the cells from slipping forward in the box as they bounce around.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

electro wrks said:


> The plastic bodies of the cells are tapered ( it's called a draft) so they can be more easily extracted from a mold when they're made.


That makes sense... One issue I'm seeing with these batteries is the width at the very top of the battery varies from one cell to another. It looks like the variance is due to the bonding material (glue?) used to affix the top to the body of the cell. Not a real problem, just makes it difficult to line them up.



> You might think about being able to pull the cells from your battery box if they were ever to swell beyond their normal size, as sometimes they do. Maybe have one end that unbolts or have a sliding plate or frame inside one end the box to clamp and un clamp the cells. It could save you from a lot of problems if there's ever a swelling issue.


Good suggestion! My plan to remove the batteries was to have a hole in the bottom sheet metal large enough to be able to push a battery up and out the top of the box. Only need one hole per row of batteries as once you get one battery out, the others will come out easily. 

Question: If the batteries swell, does it exert a force large enough to make it difficult to remove a battery in this way?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> One piece of advice: remove the screw from the spring cover if you're putting a box where the gas tank was, so you can remove the cover without removing the box. Manhandling that box full of cells is tough and there's little clearance to do anything in place when it's in, so I made the box so you can load the cells in from the front. It's not useful though, as you need to pull the box out to attach the cell interconnect straps and BMS boards. I need to add some tabs for a piece of angle to keep the bottom of the cells from slipping forward in the box as they bounce around.


Yeah, I'm putting a row of batteries where the gas tank was. I was looking at how to work around the spring cover, I like your suggestion. 

I'm looking at the hole where the gas cap was, and there's a mounting bracket that will need to be removed to fit batteries there. It looks like one of the functions of the bracket is to give structural support to the body. Do you think it's okay to just remove it, or should I add reinforcement that works with the battery box? If weight were placed on the body where the gas cap was (such as somebody sitting on it! which as a convertible is entirely possible) I wouldn't want it to be bent.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Built a 4-battery box to fit in the small space in front of the main battery box. This will be part of the main pack. With limited space, every little bit helps...

The pic was a size-test before grinding the welds smooth and installing it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I left the rib that the gas tank was mounted to intact, and bent the one bracket down out of the way (bent it with my fingers- pretty flimsy). The gas tank did provide some support to that piece of tin the gas cap passes through, but mine also has a pretty thick plate that holds down the back of the soft top. This provides a fair bit of stiffness. I didn't put any structure in the box to support the piece of tin. I actually used a chain through the gas cap hole with a piece of units rut as a spreader beam under that piece of tin to lift the body on and off the frame so it's relatively stout. All the rust in my car is within 6" of the bottom edge of the body at any point- the rest is in good shape with a few exceptions.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Pic is upside down again- stupid ipad!  View from the trunk- note the clips I welded to the inside of the rear suspension tunnel at the bottom of the box. The box butts up against the inside edge of that bracket I bent down, which I forget what it was for. It also butts against the inner edge of the upper inner trunk lid ledge. It cannot fall backward into the trunk nor can it be pulled out from the trunk side- it's just about 1/4" too high for that, so it goes in from behind the seats.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

View between the seats, showing the clearance. I have a sheet of 1/8" clear plastic as a cell hold down and to protect the terminals and BMS boards from touching steel during installation, which is a bear. I use some wood to get the base of the pack level with the top of the rear suspension tunnel that it sits on, then slide it into place.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Baratong said:


> Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!
> 
> I've had to do some grinding but I left a little extra room in the box to begin with so I could physically constrain them with a shim if necessary. I've been concerned about what I've read on battery 'bloat', but expect the BMS to protect them from over or under charge thus reducing the chance of that happening.


Here's what Dow Kokam says about their pouch cells Re swelling (from a posting on the elmoto forum):

Swelling
As a natural result of the electrochemical reaction, cells will experience approximately 2%-3% increase in thickness between 0% and 100% SOC. In addition to this SOC growth, cell thickness will also permanently increase about 6% throughout its useful life from aging, also as a predictable result of the electrochemical reaction. When stacking multiple cells up against one another, this effect is compounded. Any design of this sort should take cell growth into consideration and provide sufficient relief.

This is for pouch cells, but I'm guessing it would apply to your prismatics as well.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

6% of the width of my front pack would be around 1.5 inches. I've never seen a prismatic cell pack that had anywhere near that kind of relief! 

Prismatic cells are pouch cells paralleled inside a plastic box. The plastic box itself isn't stiff enough to resist that amount of swelling.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The plastic housing will constrain the swelling somewhat. But, the ideal situation, it seems to me, is to have the cells clamped together with some provision for unclamping them to remove cells. I've know of a case where the battery box (in this case it was a cage) had to be cut open with a cut off wheel to replace bad cells and the cage rewelded. There were cell swelling and access issues that made this necessary. Cutting and rewelding a battery box with the cells in place is not a good idea.

The lithium cells have been around long enough to reach the end of their useful life in some of the early conversions. I suspect we will be hearing more PITA stories of difficult-to-remove, unclamped cells.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's another example of swollen lithium cells from another thread on this forum. In this case, they're Volt cells apparently left with an unintentional and unmonitered slow discharge for months until they were dead, dead, dead. Can you imagine something like this mess stuck in a tight fitting box? I don't think the cells could be removed without cutting up the box. Notice the lower, through bolted portion of the cells has stayed mostly intact. But, the unsupported upper portion has definitely gone sideways.

As pointed out, in an ideal world, this should not be a problem with newer, well monitored and maintained cells. But, near the end of the life of the cells and in a failure mode(such as this), the cells could end like this:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

*Rear battery box*

Finally had some time to work on the rear battery box.

I removed the stock access port on the rear axle cover as it was shaped to support the gas tank that used to be there and interfered with the battery box fit. Made a new aluminum cover and painted it. Also cut/drilled and welded on the two front two mounts for the battery box.










I mounted the batteries on their side so I would have room above the box to build in a lockable storage space for the passenger area. The 'Spit has virtually no storage.. not even a glove box you can close. Also this gives me an area below the box that I'll enclose and use to house the rear-pack fuse, contactor, and maintenance switch.










Rear pack from the passenger compartment:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

*Bus Bars*

I decided to make my own bus bars. I really like the 'copper' finish as opposed to the tinned. I'm going to plate the contact areas but leave the main visible top area polished copper, possibly with a clear-coat to prevent oxidation.

So, started out with some 1/16" copper plate










Spent some quality time on the metal shear making 1" wide by 3 1/2" strips























Made a bending jig, and spent some more quality time on the arbor press














Nicely bent:









Ending up with 96 bus bar strips ready for drilling. The bus bars will be doubled up to make 1" wide by 1/8" thickness suitable for a little over 300amps continuous with a >700 amp surge capability for a few seconds without overheating.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Are you telling me that the hump in that access plate isn't for travel clearance for the bolts on top of the spring when it bounces back? If not, then it would be great to be able to make it flat instead of humped...the gas tank was supported at the four coners by bolts on its seam flange. Did yours have rubber or the like on top of the cover plate- mine did not.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

On mine, when I took it apart the four bolts are outside the raised middle, possibly with a tad more clearance than the flat but not much from where they are mounted. They are also solidly bolted to the top of the differential which in turn is bolted to the frame. I could be wrong but it sure doesn't look like the diff to frame mounts would allow as much travel as it would take make contact with the plate anyway. If I'm wrong I'll have a dented aluminum cover 

There was a rubber spacer between the gas tank and the top of the cover when I took it apart. I did notice that that spacer isn't noted in the official spitfire repair manual, so not sure of it was put in by a prior owner or original.. hard to say.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Right...just couldn't figure out why they would have made that plate dished as if for clearance for the bolts...diff mounts definitely wouldn't allow the spring bolt assembly to bounce high enought to wreck your plate. Time to do the same to mine- it will leave me the room I need to put a piece of angle in place to keep the bottoms of my batteries from bouncing forward over time.

Horizontal cells sure will make accessing the cell tops easier than in my case- tough for me to see the BMS celltop board status LEDs in the small space left between them and the underside of the rear deck steel. But if the cell boxes contain liquid to take up the space between the pouches and the plastic case, horizontal won't be so good. Don't know this to be the case- have seen other builds here with horizontal cells giving good durability.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Baratong
How do you intend drilling your busbars?

I found "normal" metal drills didn't work very well with copper sheet
In the end I used wood drills - the type that look like metal drills except that they have three "points" - the middle one and the two outer ones

I was only drilling one hole at a time - drill - remove the wee copper disc - drill again

I believe that a hole punch works well


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Hi Baratong
> How do you intend drilling your busbars?
> <snip>
> I believe that a hole punch works well


Hey Duncan, I tried a punch first. It made good clean holes but I couldn't remove the punch without deforming the copper bar. I considered using a 1/8" steel bar to prevent the deformation, but decided to put it on hold and just use the trusty drill press. 

I didn't consider that there might be problems with drilling the copper. I'll have to do some experimentation...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Right...just couldn't figure out why they would have made that plate dished as if for clearance for the bolts...
> 
> .... But if the cell boxes contain liquid to take up the space between the pouches and the plastic case, horizontal won't be so good. Don't know this to be the case- have seen other builds here with horizontal cells giving good durability.


Yeah, I assumed the bulge in the plate was either to help support that tank, or the spring design changed at some point in the cars history but they didn't change the plate design.

I read and saw an explanation on here some time ago about cell placement. The gist of it was that horizontal mounting may decrease the effectiveness of the vent, but of it is mounted on edge it is no worse for the battery than mounting straight up. Horizontal mounting on it's face was considered to degrade life of the battery. This was because the internal plates are still 'up and down' mounted on edge, but not if on its face.... If I find it again I'll post it...

EVtv says on the subject that "We have yet to receive a cogent explanation of why horizontal mounting would cause any decrease in battery life or capacity. All such explanations we have found on the Internet are demonstrably nonsense."


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Baratong said:


> I didn't consider that there might be problems with drilling the copper. I'll have to do some experimentation...


So I gave drilling the copper bus bars a try. It worked fantastic. Drill bit cut through the copper just like butter! 



















The bits I'm using aren't anything special, just harbor freight titanium nitride coated 135degree bits.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I like the look of the copper!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Baratong

I didn't like the burr around the edges thrown up by the drills - I think I was using thinner sheet as well

The wood drill cut the outside of the holes - you end up with much cleaner holes

But not as useful when drilling a stack!

Your connectors look very good


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, gotcha. I put the two bars together to drill for nice clean line-up on the holes. Cutting them on the metal shear certainly isn't a precision operation so they are a 16th off here and there. I bent them on my jig in pairs so they would line up correctly, then I drill them as a pair too.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

After a while, I finally got back to my conversion.

Powder coated the wheels with "chrome'. I should have taken a picture of this wheel first.. it was found in a salvage yard and was completely coated in rust. Sandblasted and powder coated and it came out better than I expected:










Baked it for a bit and came out all shiny:









Enclosed the rear contactor in polycarbonate:









Put the pieces together:









And put the finishing touches on it:


And mounted in the trunk where the gas tank was:









Got the charger mounted in the trunk as well:


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looking very sharp indeed! Glad to see you're back at it! Thinking of having my rims powder coated too- yours look very sharp!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Btw I admire the Fat Tire in the background as welll!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Looking very sharp indeed! Glad to see you're back at it! Thinking of having my rims powder coated too- yours look very sharp!


Hey thanks! I was planning on powder coating the interior black and leaving just the outer area chrome. But then I got some translucent red powder and am going to do a test sample to see how it looks. If it looks like I think it will I'll lay down a coat or two of translucent red on the interior of the wheel.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Btw I admire the Fat Tire in the background as welll!


haha, yes I hadn't noticed the bottle was in the pic until I went to post it. Something has to keep me going!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Did a little more work on the Spit today. Finished up the main battery box and bolted it in.











The cheap camera in my phone doesn't pick it up very well though.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very nice- coming along well!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

looking great! I know I always keep a good empty bottle around for photo's. Push all the cans of Bud out of the way and grab the Fat Tire for the shot, I'm onto you!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dladd said:


> looking great! I know I always keep a good empty bottle around for photo's. Push all the cans of Bud out of the way and grab the Fat Tire for the shot, I'm onto you!


Good thing I didn't post this one from when I was bending my lexan, people might have thought I was a bit pretentious sipping a 1996 Silver Oak!










(Poor photoshop skills on display!)


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So, I've decided to re-think my transmission-less approach to my build, and have begun looking at options to select a transmission for this little beast.

I would appreciate comments from others who have been through this decision process and what you would advise as pro's/con's for making the selection?

I have a Warp9 DC motor. From the face of the motor to the end of the transmission tailshaft I have a maximum of 25" of space -- which limits my options.

Here are my needs:
-- Only need 2 forward gears -- low from about 1.82 to 2.5 would work, high at 1:1 (or even down to .8:1) would work. While I only NEED these gears, I would/could use a 3 or 4-speed -- it would just be a little more than I need.

-- Space -- must be ~25 inches or less from the Warp9's face to the end of the tailshaft. This makes most of the standard manual transmissions I've looked at difficult as I would need room for the clutch/adapter plate/bell housing.

Here are the options I see as being on the table:
-- Powerglide. Direct drive, removed Bell, probably full manual shifting. Would fit, and give me a clutchless connection.

-- Standard. Must be short(!). Downside is it would require a clutch and take up extra space. I'm not considering a standard+clutchless installation, I want my wife to be able to drive this car too.

-- Bert, Brinn, Falcon transmission. Size fits, has internal clutch, has 2-speeds + reverse. On the expensive side. Drives in an unusual (but learnable) fashion, meaning no valet parking on this one (haha, I could live with this constraint  ). More expensive than the other two options.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the Bert LMZ, but really want to hear advice from others who've been down this path before...

Thanks!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

As you know, mine has a 5spd out of a Toyota Celica RWD from about 1980. We shortened the driveshaft a bit when we added the Mating u joint to the Toyota tranny, and had to make one small notch in the frame to fit it at the angle we wanted to fit the big 20R engine, but the transmission fits just fine otherwise. We just cut the whole transmission mount including its bracket from the Celica and welded it to the underside of the Spitfire frame with some nuts to act as spacers on the mounting bolts. Your motor is a bit longer than my AC50 but you could just go back a few more inches or choose a slightly shorter standard tranny. No immediate suggestions come to mind, but what did the PO have in there mated to that IC engine it came with? Surely he didn't mate that nice engine to the craptastic Leyland tranny?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> As you know, mine has a 5spd out of a Toyota Celica RWD from about 1980. We shortened the driveshaft a bit when we added the Mating u joint to the Toyota tranny, and had to make one small notch in the frame to fit it at the angle we wanted to fit the big 20R engine, but the transmission fits just fine otherwise. We just cut the whole transmission mount including its bracket from the Celica and welded it to the underside of the Spitfire frame with some nuts to act as spacers on the mounting bolts. Your motor is a bit longer than my AC50 but you could just go back a few more inches or choose a slightly shorter standard tranny. No immediate suggestions come to mind, but what did the PO have in there mated to that IC engine it came with? Surely he didn't mate that nice engine to the craptastic Leyland tranny?


Hey thanks for the info... as I mentioned this is the type of work on the car is not my strong point. I would like to give it a try myself, but as a back-up plan may just take it to a shop and say 'do this'.

Well the 25" number is if I move my Warp9 forward from where it is until it's rear shaft contacts the front battery box. I could get another inch or so if I shorten the W9's rear shaft.

The ICE had a '79 mustang 4-speed manual... 32.5" from front of bell to end of tail. The ICE was mounted pretty far forward and the drive shaft tunnel was cut as far back as it could be without removing the parking brake lever to accommodate the tail shaft.

I could potentially get another 8 inches or so of space, but would probably have to the enlarge the diameter of the drive-shaft tunnel. With passenger room a tight fit as it is, I don't really want to do that. Also as you know, the frame narrows in that area too, which makes it awkward to lower the tranny to get more space in the tunnel area.... It's not impossible, or completely off the table, just not the first option I want to pursue.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll measure mine when I get back home again, but it too is pretty long from bell to tail. But it fits...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So, after a couple of weeks of reading, talking to suppliers, an and generally educating myself on transmissions available that might fit the Spitfire, I finally have picked one. It's a T5 WC 5-speed out of an '87 Ford Thunderbird, 2.3L turbo. It was a little unusual to find the World Class version of the T5 with a bell and input shaft sized small for a 4-cylinder. In the end I did have to do modifications to the interior of the Spitfire for the trans to fit, but it was fairly easy to do.










With adapter plates/hubs available off-the-shelf for this (btw: Randy with CanEV was exceptionally helpful!), I hope to have it in the Spitfire by end of next week. It may take longer to have a custom length drive-shaft with the Ford slip-yoke on one end and the Triumph pattern for the differential on the other, but sometime during the month of May I expect to finally be driving the little beast!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Exciting progress! That's a stout tranny and I have no doubt you will have a solid result at the end of this! Now all you have to worry about are those spindly little half shafts! Doubt i'll break mine with my AC50, but you can pull more current and hence I suspect, generate even more torque...your car is going to be awe-inspiring!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Molten
I've never heard of anybody breaking those "spindly half shafts" - even with the bigger engine in the GT6

I wonder - if you are under there sometimes - how thick are they?
Could be interesting to compare with other cars and theoretical strength


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If the shafts are the same in the GT6, then there's likely no problem! Is the differential the same between models too? Don't think the tranny is though, but am not sure about that either- again the GT6 is a foreign beast to me. Presume you're right, as the two models apparently do have most things in common. Trying to remember the source of that rumour about the half shafts Duncan- I've certainly never broken one. i think it was somebody who used to race a Spitfire with an engine swap and who hadn't modified the rear end of the car at all. The shaft itself is up to it, thickness wise, but if I recall correctly the issue was a stress concentration somewhere that made them more vulnerable than they look at first glance.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Exciting progress! That's a stout tranny and I have no doubt you will have a solid result at the end of this! Now all you have to worry about are those spindly little half shafts! Doubt i'll break mine with my AC50, but you can pull more current and hence I suspect, generate even more torque...your car is going to be awe-inspiring!


Well channeling more torque through anything Leyland could be problematic. At this point though I'm going to just see what happens. Worst case is I replace the rear end with something stronger. This looks like a pretty good replacement: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...complete-with-inverter-axles-and-HV-cables-EV !!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

That would be FUN!

It would certainly shut the old "Spitfires are pretty but slow" merchants up


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

As my nephew would say, you'd be crazy NOT to do it!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So I managed to get some time again so I made a little progress here and there on the Spitfire.

On the cosmetics of the car, I sandblasted the wheels, powder coated them chrome, then masked and powder coated the interior of the wheel black. 










After black coat...









And the final result:









I just put the stock center cap on in that pic.. I'm going to replace them with chromed caps eventually.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Today, I'm working on mounting the T5 in the spitfire. I've had to make some cuts here and there on the frame to make room but nothing other than trimming a protruding edge or two. After I get the transmission mount in place, I'll pull everything out and weld the frame in the few spots where I had to notch it deep enough to matter.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looking good!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I got the CAN-EV adapter kit for my Warp9 to T5 transmission. They are very helpful and easy to work with.










The flywheel was balanced for the ICE engine it was designed for. I took it to a machine shop and had the ring gear removed, shaved off about 3pounds of excess material, and evenly balanced









And assembled the hub, flywheel, and clutch kit onto the Warp9 --









Next up is to connect the motor to the tranny, finalize the motor mount positioning and get it in the car (finally!)


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

The tranny and motor went together pretty well, once I could get them aligned right.











Got them up in the air... 









And slid the combination in place in the Spitfire.









Motor is sitting on some spacer blocks for now. The transmission is on the mount I put in last weekend...











Tomorrow, fabricate the final motor mounts... Next week I'll start the process of having a custom drive-shaft made. It's good to finally get this part of the build going, it's been the most challenging! I'm looking forward to getting back on the electrical system as soon as this is done.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very nice progress- despite the heat no doubt!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey thanks! Last week, and this week are much cooler than normal for this time of year so I'm working hard to get it done before it gets too hot to keep working on it.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Those pictures are pretty exciting. I have been watching this build, so seeing the "meat n potatoes" in place is really cool.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Some more meat and potatoes coming up!

In working out my motor mounts, I decided to use the 'clamp' style bracket that I got for the motor a while ago. Unfortunately it really have much of a mount point except for the screws and they didn't line up with where I needed it mounted.

So after putting on my ridiculously large, and garishly colored motor mounts, I took some rectangular tube and shaped the end to match the curvature of the bracket. (one on each side of the motor).










Next, I removed the black powder-coat from the clamp bracket in the working area and welded the tube on to the bracket on both sides of the motor. And then because I can't leave well enough alone, I painted them my favorite color. It's amazing how fast the paint dries when temps are in triple-digits.










And finally, I can start putting it back together!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Nice pics! I had an EV grin just sitting here looking at them.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks EVMetro! I've been working on this for quite a while now and it's exciting now that it's all coming together. I hope to be at least test-driving this by the end of the month and you can bet I'll have quite the EV grin!

With the high quality of your builds I'll bet you've got a nearly permanent EV grin! I'm excited to see your Eldorado coming together too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

No rubber in that mounting arrangement at all? I have at least a bit in there- 1/2" thickness of rubber sheet between the bottom of my C-face mounting bracket and the frame.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> No rubber in that mounting arrangement at all? I have at least a bit in there- 1/2" thickness of rubber sheet between the bottom of my C-face mounting bracket and the frame.


Well, there's no rubber . The picture doesn't show much detail but the mounts are polyurethane mounts made by 'Energy Suspension'. It's stiffer than a traditional rubber mount, and can stand up to more abuse. 










Due to how tight the transmission fits in the tunnel, I didn't want a lot of play in the drive-train... These mounts fit the bill.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Perfect- they weren't visible in the pic- it looked like you went solid right to the frame! These should " give" just the right amount and reduce noise transmission while being very sturdy.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I use poly for motor mounts on some of my conversions, and I really like how they feel. They do transmit more noise than rubber, but I think it is worth it. Those ones you are using look pretty cool too...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Yeah, that's what I was looking for in the build so I'm looking forward to driving it..

Here's the pic of the transmission's polyurethane mount that I just put on today...









And I put in the 12volt battery/charger/switcher system. I don't have a dc/dc but have a charger and a 12volt 10amp supply that takes over the 12v system during charging. There's a relay that's used to switch 12v to the car from the battery (normal), or the power supply (during charging). The little box to the right of the battery is a circuit I made that handles the switch-over control smoothly. (I haven't connected the battery in this pic!)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If I had mine to do again, I'd skip the DC/DC converter too. A small battery and separate charger would have been significantly cheaper as well as giving perfect isolation between the HV and LV systems.

Not sure why you needed the switchover to the 12V 10A mains powered supply during charging- are you going BMS-less on your little Li-ion auxiliary battery?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> ... Not sure why you needed the switchover to the 12V 10A mains powered supply during charging- are you going BMS-less on your little Li-ion auxiliary battery?


The 12v system is a 60ah LiFePo4 pack. It is charged off the same AC used to charge the traction pack, so whenever the car is plugged in both systems charge independently.

The car's 12v systems needs to be functional during charging so the main traction pack charger, BMS controller, and other electronic suites I'm installing will still be running during charging. (Pack's main contactor takes ~1.5amps @ 12v to remain energized).

I used the separate 12v power supply and switch-over circuit so there would be no load on the batteries while they are charging. That would throw off amps-in vs amps-out calculations, potentially throw off the CC to CV switchover point (which should be measured at rest, not under load), and make the charge process take longer overall.

Plus, I may want to sit in the car and crank up the radio...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Quick update.. not a lot of time to work on the Spitfire of late, put in new brake lines up front,and finished the forced-air cowling for the warp9 and put it on yesterday.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

My youngest son came over the other day and helped me re-do the brakes... Actually, he did the work while I watched.. 










I also worked on finalizing the BMS controller's UI. I was doing a little temperature testing on the cell monitoring to make sure the UI presented the info correctly. Using a heat-gun I got the BMS temp up to 190f... I wanted to see the flame come out the top of the thermometer!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The display is awesome- as is the fact that your son redid the brakes. I see the same cupronickel brake lines kit in the background that I used...Hopefully he doesn't stand to benefit too much if they fail- if you're a rich man, I'd be inspecting his workmanship! (Grin!)


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Btw what are you using for temp measurement? Have you got a thermistor or one of those temperature transmitter chips on each cell top board, or a separate sensor that you embed in the pack somewhere?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Kenny (my son), has always been quite the 'gear-head'. As soon as he could walk, anytime I worked on the car he would be right in the middle of things enjoying every second!

When he was in high school, I got him an older/used G20 for his first car. He swapped out the auto transmission for a manual, doing it all himself. His work on the Spitfire will be more reliable than if I did it.. .

On the temp.. that's the 'cell details' screen which shows current, and historical highest and lowest voltage and temperature info on a per-cell basis. Each BMS board has temperature sensing built-in -- it's an on-board function of the microcontroller I used. I only had one cell hooked up when I took that pic so the pack voltage it's showing at the top looks a little low..


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Got a little more work done this weekend. I've been working on getting the high-voltage system completed. I used 1/4" aluminum plate to make a 'shelf' under the hood for the HV section. 

I really wanted the wiring to look neat and uncluttered. I laid out how the electronics would fit on the shelf to decide what to do next.










From there, I built a housing/cover for the electronics out of sheet aluminum and mounted it to the 'shelf'. (Don't have pic of just the cover, so it'll come up a little later.)

Next was to drill/cut the holes for all the mounting bolts, and for the cable glands. The cable glands only had 1/4" of threading, which wasn't enough to extend through the shelf. Around their holes, I milled down the aluminum to 1/8" inch so there would be enough threads for the nut. (Actually 'milled' implies finesse, an attribute that this operation certainly didn't have! It would be more accurate to say 'cut'.) 












The top of the shelf is now ready to start mounting parts.












Next step was to mount the 'cover' onto the shelf to measure for where the cable gland holes on the cover should be cut.









So after the holes were all cut and and the glands installed, I put the shelf back in the car and started routing some of the HV wiring just to get a feel for the 'fit'. I'll take it back apart before cutting and finalizing it all. (The 'end' plate is just sitting in there, not bolted, so it isn't flush.. it does look better when properly bolted in place  )


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I haven't done much work on the Spitfire lately... today's temp was 117f / 47c, which is not terribly conducive to working in the garage.

So, instead, I worked more on the BMS/Console for the car.

First, I finished the current sensor module including communications with the display unit. Here's a pic of it on my test bench where I was calibrating it.









Next, was to work on what to do with the readings from the current sensor. I worked on the software for the display unit and implemented a 'fuel gauge'. Added a 'current' flow with a bench power supply and calibrated the fuel gauge to correctly reflect AH in/out and remaining.









The rest of the 'Pack Details' screen will show highest and lowest individual cells by voltage and temperature. I just need to work on the graphics for those representations... something that I find tedious due to my very limited graphics skills..


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

*To PDWA or not to PDWA?*

After getting the brakes up and running everything looked good. I found some brake fluid near the PDWA (Pressure Differential Warning Actuator) during the process and thought some must have spilled out while filling the master cylinder. I put a couple of rags on it to soak up the fluid and didn't give it another thought.

A couple days ago I noticed the master cylinder looked empty. On investigation, it was empty. The fluid leaked out through the PDWA's electrical connection -- which should never happen unless an o-ring fails.

So, on taking the PDWA apart, I found that one side was completely missing the metal sleeve and o-ring (!). Because I already had replacement o-rings, I thought -- "no problem, just get a new sleeve and all's good!". 

Unfortunately, it seems getting parts to rebuild the Triumph PDWA is not an easy thing at all. While I really like the car, this is just one of the joys of working on an older car made by a company that's been out of business for decades...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Story of my recent life...local parts guy is next to useless. You can at least get stuff from Spitbits without having brokerage and big freight tacked on to the bill!

In my case, the thing that ruined the paint on my carefully prepared shelf above the firewall was the use of replacement screws to hold the fluid reservoir to the master cylinder. They were just a touch too long, and of course the reservoir leaked a little more each day...that leak is 100% solved, but the damage is done.

My PDWA is there and doesn't leak, but I'm not using the switch. It has never worked, even when I bought the car in 1988...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Spitfires are not too bad
I remember going with my mate for parts for his TR6
You could buy almost anything!
I was restoring my Lancia Spyder at the same time - I had to make nearly everything, the mechanical parts were not too bad - mostly Fiat 
But the bodywork and trim was all Zagota and totally unobtainable

Use of screws that were too long

I had a problem with that once
I had a mini with a 1430cc lump
To get 1430 you have to increase the bore and the stroke
I also fitted a center oil pickup (minis had the oil pick up at one side and they could starve the bearings on corners)
These were notorious for hitting on things inside the engine/gearbox and I had an extended stroke....

I carefully checked everything was clear but when I put the car together something was hitting
Out came the engine, split the engine from the gearbox
No marks on the center oil pickup!

I had modified the oil filter so that I could mount it remotely - and I had used bolts that were too long

It would have taken 5 minutes to remove the bolts, shorten them and replace
(nice and easy to get at at the front of the engine)

Instead I took the whole unit back out and stripped it all down - then I had to put it all back together again 

Bolts too long!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

http://faculty.cas.usf.edu/garey/triumph/Bumper Conversion for 1980 Spitfire.pdf

Thought you might like this- IF you can find chrome bumpers from an earlier model Spitfire. They're comparatively rare- rarer than the cars at least.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> http://faculty.cas.usf.edu/garey/triumph/Bumper Conversion for 1980 Spitfire.pdf
> 
> Thought you might like this- IF you can find chrome bumpers from an earlier model Spitfire. They're comparatively rare- rarer than the cars at least.


Hey Molten, thanks for the link. I like the chrome bumper look so much better than the 79 - 80 big black plastic.


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## theguyed (Dec 4, 2010)

That motor looked like a pise aof artwork


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks!

Now that it's cool enough to work in the garage for more than a few minutes at a time, work is proceeding once again.

I powder-coated the shelf and the HV component housing and this week am finally putting together the whole system... 









I finished the firmware and put together the completed prototype of my pre-charge controller:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

One of the things I like about these forums is you pick up ideas from others here. A while back EVMetro was working out an automatic system to allow for three different AC sources for the charger. In the forum discussion, a 2-relay solution was put up, and it struck me as an excellent idea. So when I was putting my charging system together recently, I built the 3-input AC switcher for the charger's input voltage.










I have two AC outputs, one to the traction pack charger, and one to my 12v system charger.

The charger I'm using (thunderstruck TSM2500), has a number of options. I built this small control panel that I mounted in the trunk which lets me control power to the charging system, max current cutback, and also manually override and control the state of the proximity line.

Started with a panel that was close to what I wanted, built the sheet-metal box for it:









And installed it in the trunk, near the charger:









I've been working on the 12v wiring as well. The old wiring harness in the donor was completely trashed, so I pulled out what was left and tossed it out. I've been building the new harness and upgrading parts as I go. 

To save power, I went to all LED lights in the car -- which makes a big difference in current draw on the 12v system. Here's the new front lights wired and working:









I've also been making a new dash panel. I'm going with wood like the original, so there's a sheen of sawdust all over the car...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looking good Baratong!

Keep those updates coming!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Beautiful work!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks Guys!

I finished the shelf that will hold the high voltage components. Because I built in a motor cooling fan, I 3D printed a bracket/size step-down part and mounted an air filter on top.









In the spirit of conserving my 12v batteries, instead of using traditional automotive relays, I bought an 8-SSR board and built a housing for it. I'm also a fan of the optical isolation of the control signal this provides.









Next, I mounted it in the car and started on the wiring. ( I made a lexan cover, but it's new without a scratch or dust on it and is nearly invisible in this picture).


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your build is such a beautiful riot of colour and careful workmanship- mine looks so boring and disorganized in comparison!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Your build is such a beautiful riot of colour and careful workmanship- mine looks so boring and disorganized in comparison!


I agree. All those colors look like a really fun theme.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Work has been really busy lately so haven't been able to work on the Spitfire as much as I would like.

However, the past few days I've been able to move it forward. I finished the HV wiring, got the charger up and running, bottom-balanced the cells, then charged them up. I'm a little concerned that they only took about 9kw.. should have been higher, but I'll see how they work out after a few discharge/charge cycles.

A few pics.. 

First, my BMS console, hooked up to the front pack of 30 cells during charging shows the cells' status as they were being charged. (The camera makes the display look bad.. it really looks a lot better than this picture would indicate)










With the touch screen interface, it will show detailed status of any individual cell that you touch on the screen:









And finally, the front pack while charging.. Touch the 'display' function on the console and each cell board shows the status, voltage/temp on the display. I snapped this shot while it had the voltage on the display.











Today, I'll be bringing up the motor/controller and should have the motor spinning by end of day. I tend to take the HV wiring and bring-up very slowly, checking/re-checking every step.. at this point a mistake could be very costly!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

During balancing, the shunts on the BMS boards pull down the cells to the voltage specified on the console. Shunting normally uses a PWM to fine-tune the load, but for balancing pulls down at max rate of ~1.4a. Here's a shot while in operation. At the time of the shot, the BMS LED displays were cycling to the 'show BMS address' state.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ahh work- it does tend to get in the way of life, doesn't it?

Good to see you're not wasting the cool weather! We've had a warm winter so far- only needed to burn the wood stove in the shop once so far.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Glad you're having a mild winter so far! Sounds like you could've driven your 'Spit for another month or two this year.

On my end: "SHE'S ALIVE"!!! 

Motor controller, pre-charger, safety switches, everything ALL WORKS! 
Even the 'drive away lockout' works! (while charger is on). 

Ok, so I'm happy after all this time I've finally reached this point. Now the only thing preventing me from driving (at least for a test) is that I haven't had the custom driveshaft made. If no problems pop up, I'll be driving by mid January.

My custom electronics are all working fine too. This was the first real HV test of the pre-charger, and it works great. The BMS console, battery boards, and current sensor all work nicely as well. Software needs a little tweaking but that's to be expected at this point.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Looking forward to a wicked and well deserved EV grin by mid January!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing it in action!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am checking this thread every day, waiting for that first drive. Can't wait...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

The under-the-hood HV and LV wiring is now complete.




















Trunk HV and battery pack is complete:










And the driveshaft is in place..












Unfortunately, I'll need to adjust the transmission alignment as the driveshaft is showing a .020" runout. I'm going to hold off on that for now as I can't bring myself to tear down everything under the hood to get to the motor mounts to make the adjustments. I'd rather get the thing moving and then go back and handle this later.

My next step is to put the dash together, then fabricate and install a new driveshaft/xmission cover.




..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

That's a thing of beauty, Baratong! Keep it going- expecting to see an EV grin in short order!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> That's a thing of beauty, Baratong! Keep it going- expecting to see an EV grin in short order!


Hey thanks Molten! It's been tough finding the time to work on it, but still moving forward when and where I can.


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Wow! Very nice work! Keep it up!

Rob


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

miscrms said:


> Wow! Very nice work! Keep it up!
> 
> Rob


Thanks Rob! I enjoy reading your Saab Sonett thread, and am looking forward to seeing how the project evolves.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey- just noticed- where'd the handbrake go? You'll be needing that...!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hey- just noticed- where'd the handbrake go? You'll be needing that...!


Yeah, I'll have to make a new tunnel as the shaft and tranny stand higher than the original tunnel allowed for. I'll re-fit the handbrake on the new tunnel when I get to that point. Don't want the beast rolling away when I park it!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Got some work done on the dash this weekend. 










The little LCD to the left of the speedometer is my BMS's console.. little touch-screen. I'll make a bezel for it that should match the gauges look.










The large rectangular hole in the center will hold a 7" display Android based media system... 
Info/pics on Android console link here

It was a nice change of pace to do the woodworking on the dash. When I complete the fit I'm going to veneer it with Zebra wood.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Nice, coming along slowly.

You might want to investigate a Midget/Sprite handbrake. They mount on the side of the tunnel......


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Much cleaner than my dash...that has some serious style! Does your back hurt from the raised seam of the door jamb yet? Then you're not done!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> ... Does your back hurt from the raised seam of the door jamb yet? Then you're not done!


Thanks Molten.. Yes, that seam really digs in doesn't it?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I envy you and molten having the wood dash. There is something really appealing about having the instrument panel made out of wood.


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

That dash is going to look dead sexy, nice thinking on the wood dash. I'm going to keep thisidea in the memory banks for my build.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Time for a quick update, and a question for my fellow Spitfire owners..

I've completed the 12v wiring, including all of the dash gauges etc. are up and working.

I built the new transmission tunnel (mostly). I need to finish the final segment that covers the bell and it's done. Then I'll put in the hand-brake, and the dash-mounts.










Now the question to my fellow Spitfire owners... 

When I bought this car, most of the under-dash area had been removed. Because if this I'm not sure about how a few items need to go back together.

First, in the following picture, the left circle shows where the left dash bolts to a bracket. My question is is there supposed to be a similar bracket on the right? (I would think so, but have never seen it put together).











Second, there are two 'feet' under this section of the dash with bolt holes, but I'm not sure what they were originally bolted to... 










I have the Zebra wood dash panel completed and am just waiting to get the supports put together correctly before putting it all together.

On another note, unfortunately I lost my keychain that just happened to have the only set of keys for this car. So now I'm looking to replace all of the locks.. ouch!


I picked up one of these bad boys, but haven't had a chance to set it up yet..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ouch for sure- that lock replacement is gonna hurt real bad!

Don't bother replacing the doorlocks- anyone motivated will just cut your soft top to gain entry- but you're going to want to replace the trunk/boot lock. I intended to put an additional ignition switch in the trunk for security ( I had a valve on the fuel line for that purpose before) but figured anyone wanting to steal it would be deterred by the electrics anyway.

Personally I would ditch the original ignition switch- but without a key, your steering column lock is a gonner too...that's very unfortunate and may require replacement of the whole works because who will have a key code for your car?! I hate that steering column- gave me nothing but grief. Hope yours is in nicer condition!

OK, the under-dash: in my car, there was a panel which bolted to the two tabs and then led down to land on bolt holes in the body bucket on either side of the tranny. It was used to support the stereo etc. I ripped mine out and never replaced it. The dash is stout enough without it. I did bolt a board to the two holes in the lower dash and I mounted an auxiliary plate to that (made of the same plywood I used to make my dash). It has a number of toggle switches for various functions I diverted from the original, horrible and unreliable Lucas switches (wiper and washer controls) plus a switch for my radio. My radio is mounted to this plate also. I didn't continue the rails to the body bucket, as my tranny cover was on and off too often for my pleasure. 

Your tranny cover is quite the feat of tin-whacking! Did you insulate it with something for sound? I'd be worried that it would be a resonator for any vibrations from the tranny. All I did with mine was take the old fibreboard one, chop-shop it to fit the Toyota tranny, added necessary pieces with hot glue and cardboard, and then over-glassed it with fibreglass and then gave it a few coats of epoxy. 

My car isn't actually all that quiet while driving, because I got rid of all the rot-inducing carpeting and noise suppression insulation- that stuff that never dries after the car gets soaked that one time you forget to put the top up before a rain...not as big an issue where you live, but I'm convinced those carpets are what rotted my car's floor pans out in storage and I'll be very hesitant to put them back in!

Can't wait to see your car on the road!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey, is that an engraver, or a full-on CNC router?

How do you communicate with it? Is it as simple as a plotter that comes with a driver for AutoCAD or the like?

I had a local guy make me some dash labels and some logo plates using a machine like that. He's a fellow disabled with MS who works out of his garage, and does a great job- don't know if I posted a pic on my thread or not. I don't like the size of my dash labels so will be re-doing them, but the logo plates rock! Will go back and post one!


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Yeahbutt, we all know that British cars leak more with the top up than when it's down.......


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hey, is that an engraver, or a full-on CNC router?
> 
> How do you communicate with it? Is it as simple as a plotter that comes with a driver for AutoCAD or the like?
> 
> I had a local guy make me some dash labels and some logo plates using a machine like that. He's a fellow disabled with MS who works out of his garage, and does a great job- don't know if I posted a pic on my thread or not. I don't like the size of my dash labels so will be re-doing them, but the logo plates rock! Will go back and post one!


It's a full CNC router. A dedicated PC running Mach3 is connected to it. It has a 2.2kw spindle motor, with a routing area of 21" x 14" x 5.5" (X,Y,Z). I'm anxious to get it set up, but haven't had the time...

I'd like to see the logo plates you had made... post some pics!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> ...that's very unfortunate and may require replacement of the whole works because who will have a key code for your car?!


I've made a lot of calls.. nobody has the key code. I'm looking at getting an aftermarket 'universal' switch and mount it in the dash, but am balancing that with going alternative such as biometrics, or chip-card -- which was my long-term plan anyway.



Moltenmetal said:


> OK, the under-dash: in my car, there was a panel which bolted to the two tabs and then led down to land on bolt holes in the body bucket on either side of the tranny. It was used to support the stereo etc. I ripped mine out and never replaced it.


Ok, I've got that piece, but it won't fit my new tunnel. Question: The left bolt hole mounts to the black bar behind the dash, and the panel you mentioned on the front. Does the right bolt hole mount to anything behind the dash? 




Moltenmetal said:


> Your tranny cover is quite the feat of tin-whacking! Did you insulate it with something for sound? I'd be worried that it would be a resonator for any vibrations from the tranny. All I did with mine was take the old fibreboard one, chop-shop it to fit the Toyota tranny, added necessary pieces with hot glue and cardboard, and then over-glassed it with fibreglass and then gave it a few coats of epoxy.


Yes, the tin-whacking was a learning experience and wouldn't have been possible (for me) without a CAD package that let me model it first, then unfold the model so I could correctly cut and bend the aluminum.

I haven't insulated it yet but will have some insulation with the finishing. It'll be covered with a thin foam, and a tan/beige colored vinyl. It still may make noise but that's just being true to the Triumph tradition! 




Moltenmetal said:


> Can't wait to see your car on the road!


Thanks! Yeah, me too. I'll post a video as soon as that happens. If I don't find the time to get it going in the next 2 months it may be a while. With the weather what it is now, it may be a long hot summer here.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

BWA said:


> Yeahbutt, we all know that British cars leak more with the top up than when it's down.......


Just part of their charm!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

You might ask ClintK, if he still frequents this forum. There is nothing behind the right hole on mine, but mine has been without those parts for twenty years.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

When I laid out the veneer for the new dash, it became obvious that the stripes in the zebra wood veneer would look better if they weren't broken at the seams between the Spitfire's traditional 3-piece dash. So, I made a single piece dash for the Spit and veneered that. 










After cutting the holes for the gauges, I finished it with a urethane. This pic was after the first coat, but I ended up doing 15 coats to get the texture depth I wanted.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I also got the original parking brake mechanism built into my new trans tunnel and it works pretty well..


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Looking Nice!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

The Spitfire is coming along nicely now! Here are some updates:

I tried modifying the original center dash support to fit the new trans tunnel, but it just wasn't the right geometry, so I fabricated a new one:









After a test fit, I added angled feet so it could be bolted to the floor.











Here it is mounted. Also, I removed the old, and installed a new dash pad.









I've already got the EV grin!

Then I put the gauges and android media console in the dash panel, wired it up and installed:









With all of this done, I took the Spitfire off the jack stands for the first time in a couple of years. She is just about ready for the first test drive!









I've already got the EV grin!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Eagerly anticipating the first drive!

The zebrawood looks fantastic- and with all the other crap removed, you won't miss the removability of the center dash console- I need it to get behind there.

What makes the console stick out so far proud of the dash? Not criticizing, just curious.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, I've got to add this to my car:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Eagerly anticipating the first drive!
> 
> The zebrawood looks fantastic- and with all the other crap removed, you won't miss the removability of the center dash console- I need it to get behind there.
> 
> What makes the console stick out so far proud of the dash? Not criticizing, just curious.



Thanks Molten! 

Two things make the console stick out for now. First, I used the manufacturer supplied bezel - which is on the large side. Second, unfortunately, I missed on the measurements a little. The body of the console behind the dash is in conflict with the Spitfire's support arm that bolts onto the left of the console's hole. This lifts the back of the console about 3/8" causing the console to angle at the top. 

Both of these will be remedied eventually, but for now I'm just happy it's in and works. I'm actually on the fence a little, as I'm now leaning more toward doing my original idea of using a large (10" to 15") touch-screen flush mounted to the dash with an Android stand-alone box behind the dash. I took a look at doing it yesterday and liked the clean look it has.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So here it is, the very first drive of my '79 Triumph Spitfire conversion....


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Very cool, big congrats......


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Whooohoooooo! Way to go!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Awesome! Congrats!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey thanks guys! It's been a long project and am glad to have it moving finally.

There are a few things left to do before it can become my daily driver. None of them are terribly challenging so it they should go quickly. 

And then, there are design changes/upgrades to make the car easier to drive for anyone not familiar with it's quirks.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The first drive is a big deal, so I am really excited for you. I don't think you can ever appreciate driving any car as much as you can appreciate driving your own build. Congrats, and thank you for keeping a thread going for the rest of us to enjoy!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

evmetro said:


> The first drive is a big deal, so I am really excited for you. I don't think you can ever appreciate driving any car as much as you can appreciate driving your own build. Congrats, and thank you for keeping a thread going for the rest of us to enjoy!


Thanks EVmetro. When I started reading these forums a few years ago, I read all of your builds and referred back quite often to see how you desinged your conversions. You have a very high attention to detail and extrmely high quality workmanship in all aspects of your conversions. Your builds inspired me to do more than just make the car run, and to work at making the design as elegant as I could where I could. Thank you for setting the example and showing the rest of us how high quality a conversion can be. I'm still anxioius to see you driving your Eldorado sometime soon!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Just when everything is coming together....

One of the front hood hinge's broke so I was removing the hood assembly, which is essentially the front-end of the car, when this happened...

Due to weight and bulk, I was using an engine hoist to pull the hood off. I didn't have it setup correctly but assumed it would be ok because the weight of the hood was so little comparatively. 

I got the hood off, backed the car into the driveway. My neighbor was out and we started talking about the car. After a minute or two there was a loud crash as the hood hit the garage floor and the hoist fell on top of it. 

Now I'll definitely be looking for some bodywork. (Its worse than the pictures show).


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Sorry, that sucks!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

miscrms said:


> Sorry, that sucks!


Hey thanks, well stuff happens. I should have been more careful...

btw miscrms, I sent you a PM.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Right in the feels.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This accident might be an invite for you do get carried away with the paint and body... hmm

Sorry to see what happened.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I was toying with the idea of changing the color back to its original blue. The red paint is fairly recent and not terribly high quality. Now I'm thinking I will go ahead and have the whole car repainted.

I like the blue Spitfire look much better anyway:


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea, it does indeed look good in that blue. I saw one in a similar blue a couple weeks ago here at my shop. I am two doors down from the British car shop in my area, so I get to see a whole lot of different British cars. They are mostly Triumphs, but there are many interesting cars that come here. The guy who runs that shop does not seem to have much interest in electrifying Triumphs, but he offered me a donor chassis awhile back. Anyway, I hope things work out with your paint choices or if you just get your hood fixed.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Aw Baratong...that SUCKS! But even as dinged up as it is, your hood looks nicer than mine did when I started out! Getting the nose to look right is tough, and the nose took a big bump there- hopefully whoever you pay to do the body work will be able to take that ding out and leave the metal in the right shape, otherwise the shaping in filler will take someone with EVMetro's skill to sort out!

Definitely an excuse to change away from the ubiquitous red, and of course topaz is already taken!

The blue is sharp for sure. As long as it's not white, which seems for some reason to be the most popular Spitfire colour next to red, it'll look great!

EVMetro, I'm dying to see what you'd do with a TR3...they're a gorgeous car, a "barchetta" (little boat) roadster design, with a lousy Fergusson tractor engine, and regrettably also four wheel drum brakes if I recall correctly. A TR3 is aching for a conversion, if your guy down the street gets one and wants to part with it. My brother's TR3 was what got me hooked on Brits...


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

TR2/3s had disc brakes from the get go. Possibly one of the first production cars with disc brakes.

Correction, just checked, 2s were drum, 3s from 56 on were disc.....


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't know about a TR3 - but my pal's TR6 was the "fastest tractor in the west"
Lots of power but a really stiff ride (and I was driving mini's then)

For the Spitfire I really liked the "Hurricane" body kit


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Working on my custom BMS -- specifically the user interface for the head unit.

This screen is the "Pack Details" which shows the cells with the highest/lowest voltage and temperature. When I took this picture, it was balancing the pack so the higher cell is showing a higher temperature too.










My battery pack is looking like it is problematic. The first full charge/drain cycle only showed a capacity of 9kwh (it's a 45 cell 100ah pack). I'm hoping with some conditioning I can get more out of it, but I did buy them from an individual who advertised in the classified section here so I was taking my chances I suppose.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

this a nextion display? Or what is it?

Mind sharing some more info, I am looking into what to use as a display, Im leaning towards android app via blooth if I got the data on a serial bus anyway. Because the nextion display updating is currently quite a hassle in code.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Tomdb said:


> this a nextion display? Or what is it?
> 
> Mind sharing some more info, I am looking into what to use as a display, Im leaning towards android app via blooth if I got the data on a serial bus anyway. Because the nextion display updating is currently quite a hassle in code.


I sourced the display from a Chinese company "EastRising". It's a small 2.8" TFT with resistive touch-screen. It has a built-in ILI9341 controller that I communicate with via SPI. I have a small microcontroller on my display I/F board whose job is to constantly read the state of the touch-screen and report to the main controller via i2c. There's more info on my BMS controller in post 21 ( http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=446241&postcount=21 ). The whole system is distributed with 1 board per cell, and a serial multi-drop bus that the controller communicates with the cells. I've also made a hall-effect based current sensor that sits on the same serial bus. The info on the display is real-time.

I've got a few other peripherals in the works too, but for now I'm just putting polish on the user interface, and doing real-world testing.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Battery testing results are looking much better. After a full charge, I drove 10 miles. After the drive the lowest cell was 3.29v, and the highest cell was 3.31 - plenty of distance left in the pack.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Just passed 100 EV miles. There's still a lot of work to do on the Spitfire, but I love driving it!


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## miscrms (Sep 25, 2013)

Very cool! She's such a looker too


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very nice indeed! What did you end up doing with the hood damage? And how's the BMS development coming along?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

The hood damage is still there, this side shot just doesn't show it. I'm taking her in next week to have it fixed, and fix a few other areas on the car as well.

I'm working out the final bugs/features and UI of the BMS system now. I had to wait to get some real-world experience with it before the final tweeks could be done, but it should be finished in a month or two. Then I'll make it available for more beta testing before moving it forward. 

Last week I moved from Phoenix to Prescott, AZ. Things have been up in the air for the past few weeks with packing and moving. Now that things are settling down I can get back to work on it. I'll have to re-think the 'no heater' choice in my build now.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> I chose a Warp9 motor for my conversion for various reasons.
> 
> After looking into transmission options, and talking to several other Spitfire owners who converted I decided on going with direct-drive on this conversion.
> 
> So, I did the CAD work for a couple of adapter plates that will let me attach the Spitfire's tailshaft to the Warp9 and had them machined.


please tell more about using the tailshaft to select F-N-R !

I have a '62 Sunbeam Alpine I am considering for conversion... I KNOW the original transmission won't handle the torque. I am dreading the decision of what transmission to transplant, and was going to use something matching an existing plate from CANev.

I know from experience that driving my eMiata from a stop in 4th (1:1) that the performance is 'reasonable', but the torque is very hard on the tranny and the top speed in 4th at 5000 rpm is a little lower than I would prefer.

so.... unless you are thrilled with your direct drive I will probably go with a full transmission. I am facinated to learn more about using the tailshaft as a fwd-reverse selector though.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> So, after a couple of weeks of reading, talking to suppliers, an and generally educating myself on transmissions available that might fit the Spitfire, I finally have picked one. It's a T5 WC 5-speed out of an '87 Ford Thunderbird, 2.3L turbo. It was a little unusual to find the World Class version of the T5 with a bell and input shaft sized small for a 4-cylinder. In the end I did have to do modifications to the interior of the Spitfire for the trans to fit, but it was fairly easy to do.
> 
> 
> With adapter plates/hubs available off-the-shelf for this (btw: Randy with CanEV was exceptionally helpful!),



now you're talking!
where did you locate the tranny, and ballpark the cost?
I'm thinking this is looking like what I need in my Alpine!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> The display is awesome- as is the fact that your son redid the brakes. I see the same cupronickel brake lines kit in the background that I used...Hopefully he doesn't stand to benefit too much if they fail- if you're a rich man, I'd be inspecting his workmanship! (Grin!)


can you post details on where to get the brake kit and tools... there are way too many choices in the tool catalogs. Just something basic, that works. I will have to completely replace 50 year old brakelines in the alpine.... as well as consider a switch to disc all around I think.

Have you guys run across a reasonable swap from a modern vehicle like a Miata or something of comparable size... just transplanting the entire disc and caliper?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> To save power, I went to all LED lights in the car -- which makes a big difference in current draw on the 12v system. Here's the new front lights wired and working:



ooohhhhh..... pretty!
tell more about the headlights!
WHERE do I get some?!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> please tell more about using the tailshaft to select F-N-R !
> 
> I have a '62 Sunbeam Alpine I am considering for conversion... I KNOW the original transmission won't handle the torque. I am dreading the decision of what transmission to transplant, and was going to use something matching an existing plate from CANev.
> 
> ...


disregard.... looks like you switched to a tranny.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

FABULOUS build thread.... read the whole thing with great interest and admiration!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> FABULOUS build thread.... read the whole thing with great interest and admiration!


Thanks! It has certainly been a learning experience, and I love driving my electric Spitfire. I look forward to reading about your Sunbeam, that should make a nice little EV!

To answer some of your questions:
When I first was planning on doing the direct drive setup, I bought a reversing contactor. I fabricated a metal part that would force a 3-stop pattern on the shifter with micro-switches sensing the 'D', and the 'R' positions. When the shifter was in the 'D' position the reversing contactor would be enabled on the 'forward' direction. When in the 'R' position, the reversing contactor would switch over to reverse the motor. Any other position the main contactor was turned off to simulate 'N'.

Transmission
I picked up the T5/WC tranny at a local wrecking yard for $800. It came with a guarantee so I was comfortable going that way. With the adapter from CanEV it went pretty smooth. I did have to make modifications to the Spitfires transmission and driveshaft tunnel to make it work.

Brakes
I bought a brake pads/shoes and springs, and the brake line set from spitbits.com. Moss Motors carries the kit as well. I didn't look into a transplant from a more modern car as there were plenty of options for the Spitfire.

Lights
I bought the 7" headlight housing (that includes the blue LED's around the edge), and then bought CREE XML2 LED bulbs. I like them, they work pretty well. I wired the housing's blue LED's to the 'parking lights' so they are on anytime the parking lights are on. I got both on eBay.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> Thanks! It has certainly been a learning experience, and I love driving my electric Spitfire. I look forward to reading about your Sunbeam, that should make a nice little EV!
> 
> To answer some of your questions:
> When I first was planning on doing the direct drive setup, I bought a reversing contactor. I fabricated a metal part that would force a 3-stop pattern on the shifter with micro-switches sensing the 'D', and the 'R' positions. When the shifter was in the 'D' position the reversing contactor would be enabled on the 'forward' direction. When in the 'R' position, the reversing contactor would switch over to reverse the motor. Any other position the main contactor was turned off to simulate 'N'.
> ...


thanks much for the wrap up.

for the Alpine I'd like to find SOME transmission capable of handling the torque from a Warp9 and zilla 1k... which means 250ft# or thereabouts. Best if its something that Randy at CanEV has on the shelf. I'd consider buying an entire parts car and attempting to transplant the whole drivetrain including the rear diff.... shortening the driveshaft as need be. The Alpine rear diff are not very sturdy either.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

No kidding, nothing on the Alpine was very sturdy.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

So far so good with the W50 transmission from a 1980 Celica, but I don't have the DC torque Baratong has so it's not as fair a test. I've already torn a tooth out of the crown pinion of my original diff, but it was probably my out of phase driveshaft which killed it. Fixed that, and the spare Spitfire diff seems to be holding up. CanEV had the mounting kit to match the Toyota 20R clutch and W50 transmission.

Post a build log of your Alpine- that's a very cute car and will make a stunner of an EV!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Right from my first full charge there seemed to be some problems with my traction pack. I did buy the batteries used from a stranger, so it was a gamble to start with. I did monitor them and added some juice with a bench power-supply regularly until I was ready to put them in the car and start using them.

While I drove my Spitfire a little over 100 miles, it got at best 15 miles to the charge, and my BMS was showing significant voltage sag in most of the cells. I bought a Powerlab 8 to do some checking on the cells. As it turned out the cell with the most capacity had 54ah. The lowest capacity cell I had was 43ah. Not good, as these were 100ah cells. 

So, it was time for a new traction pack. I decided to go with a name brand purchased from a reputable supplier that includes a decent warranty. I purchased 45 CALB CA100 (100ah) cells from Electric Car Parts Company. I arranged a will-call pickup from CALB USA and took a road trip out to Pamona to get them.











It was fun meeting the people at CALB USA, they were very friendly and helpful. They carefully loaded the 375 lb. container into my car, and away I went. Arrived home with no problems and started unpacking.

Now it was time to start taking apart the battery boxes that I spent so much time making. <argh> One last picture before tearing it down.



















Then I started looking at how these CALB's would fit. (No, I'm not planning on stacking them, just moving them around in this pic).









I will be able to fit 28 in the front, and perhaps 16 in the back... so time to start making the front battery box!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh Baratong, I'm so sorry to hear that!

Glad you were able to get some CALBs, which by all reports here are quite excellent cells. But to have to spend money on anything twice on one of these projects is always regrettable. And with the effort you've already invested in careful planning and workmanship, I certainly understand your reluctance to go back and stuff a Volt pack in there.

What are your plans for the bad cells? I'm sure you've got something up your sleeve...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey Molten! Yes it was unfortunate to have to buy another pack. I had plans for my second conversion and already have an AC-51 and Curtis controller for it, but having to replace this pack put those plans on hold for a while.

For now I'll move the old pack to my lab, and use them as a dedicated test-bench for finalizing my BMS. Their biggest problem is their internal resistance is high, so they have pretty bad voltage sag making them not suitable for much.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Exciting! What is the donor you have in mind?

You could probably make a hell of a ups from those bad cells- the ir is worse than you'd get from lead acids?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm looking at building a kit-car for my next project. My wife has said she would love to have a vintage Porsche 356, so that's top of my list right now:


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Picture causes envy, and drooling...Excellent choice!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Picture causes envy, and drooling...Excellent choice!


Well, I think that's the only way I'll get my wife on board for another car project!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey Baratong- how's it going?

Would you mind posting the listing of the CREE XML2 bulbs you bought for those headlight housings? Presume they're H4 bulb pattern, right? There's such a diversity of bulbs being offered, with some very pricey with large fin-fans on the back etc. I've got another retrofit reflector in mind than the one you bought, but am interested in the bulbs. LED auto lighting is such a rat's nest of crap being offered- it's tough to get a realistic idea of how the bulbs are going to work in the reflectors, and how many lumens you can realistically achieve per watt of input power etc. I do want my original sealed beams gone and going LED makes sense- just want a better shot of getting it right with my first buy!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hey Baratong- how's it going?
> 
> Would you mind posting the listing of the CREE XML2 bulbs you bought for those headlight housings? Presume they're H4 bulb pattern, right? ...


Hey Molten,
Here's an eBay listing for the same LED bulbs: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-PAIR-8000...E-WHITE-JDM-/322157261604?hash=item4b0211b324

The fins were a bit large and getting the rubber boot over them to seal the rear of the housing was not easy. I noticed that they now make bulbs with braided copper heat sink that is flexible, making it easier to fit.

I can't speak to how many lumens they produce as I haven't measured, but they are bright enough for me to see well with when night driving. I do have a lumen meter, I'll see about taking a reading and post it.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks- wow, there are so many types of these on the market! At 80W, there won't be much power savings relative to the original sealed beams- just a lot more light and hopefully longevity too.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm not sure where they are getting that 80W value in the headline. Aside from the headline, the spec's say power draw is 17W per bulb -- which tracks with my measurement of ~4amp draw on my 12v system with headlights and all other lights on.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Yeah, I found that most of them quote 80 W but really mean 40 W x 2 (2 lamps), which I presume from your comment would be the draw if you ran the HB and LB on both bulbs at the same time. 

Did yours say anything about needing to run either the LB or the HB but not both? Wonder what the drivers and heat dissipation are designed around.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, it's really just a bunch of high-bright white LED's on a stick.. .. not really two 'bulbs'. I haven't really noticed what's going on when the brights are on... whether additional LED elements turn on, or if all LED's simply get brighter. It's too bright to really see what's happening.

The 4amp figure I measured was with low+high on plus all other running lights excluding brake and reverse lights. My system was at ~13v at the time so a total of 52w. All of my lights are LED, so my estimate was that 34W total for both headlights on sounded right.


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## Tamber (Jun 29, 2010)

I think that they usually throw those figures as a "this replaces an incandescent of X wattage", rather than "this is what it actually draws/produces"; because who'd buy a 17W bulb to replace an 80W one?

Oh, also, "because marketing".


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Watts are useless as a measurement for lights, except for the draw on the power source.....

Lumens is the correct measurement for light output, and, the only real way to compare one light source to another.....


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

The new battery boxes and batteries are in, connected and ready to go!

Front box with 28 cells:



















Rear box with 16 cells:





















So, finally, she's back on the road.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your pics are too huge to display, or at least they seem to be so on my tablet...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Your pics are too huge to display, or at least they seem to be so on my tablet...


Those pics were a bit large. Here are some sized versions:

Front box


















Rear box


















The pictures bring out all the flaws that aren't very noticeable in person...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

No flaws that I see! I see a lot better layout than on mine, and a lot more room to work especially on the rear pack!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking very smart!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I got the Spitfire out on the road this weekend, and it was very fun driving it! The new batteries are much stronger than the old pack. It had quite a bit more 'pep' especially when driving uphill. 

First, I balanced the cells, and gave them a full charge. They took a little over 12kwh.










Then I took a few pictures after driving it....



























There is still a lot of work to do to 'finish' the car, but it's nice having it back on the road -- this time with good range.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is great to see!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your build is so much cleaner and classier than mine- I'm very glad you're actually out DRIVING it now!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Your build is so much cleaner and classier than mine- I'm very glad you're actually out DRIVING it now!


Your 'Spit looks fantastic, and you had a lot more work than I did to get it put together. In fact I was admiring your 'Spit while sitting in mine...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Awesome picture!!!!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

One of the fun things about having the Spit up and running again, is I can now get my BMS system completed/debugged and ready to go. 

After using my BMS to balance the pack, then a top-off charge, and a quick drive, there was only a 5mV difference between the highest, and lowest cell in my pack. 










One of the upgrades I recently made to my BMS is I moved from using a 10bit to a 12bit ADC, oversampled and averaged. I also added a manufacturing time option to calibrate the voltage reading to compensate for the inevitable small differences such as tolerance stack-up that comes with quantity production. I calibrated the 44 BMS boards in my Spitfire with a high-precision bench voltmeter against a fixed voltage source. I used a spare 100ah battery as the source for the BMS and the calibration because it's a very nice clean/constant power source with no ripple or noise. 

I'm happy with the results.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very cool- where is that display going to be mounted? Or is that what the tablet is for, when not browsing my thread?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Very cool- where is that display going to be mounted? Or is that what the tablet is for, when not browsing my thread?


The display will be mounted to the left of the speedometer. In the picture you can just see a couple holes in the dash, which are for mounting the 3d printed bezel. 

Ultimately my BMS console will have a CAN interface which will let me use the console for BMS info, in addition to browsing your build thread..


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## ponobill (May 29, 2014)

Very helpful build information. The car looks great, though those giant rubber baby buggy bumpers have to go.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

ponobill said:


> Very helpful build information. The car looks great, though those giant rubber baby buggy bumpers have to go.


Hey thanks. I'm not happy with those giant '79 bumpers, but they have grown on me over time and are true to the original. So I think I'll keep them. 😂


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So, after coming home from a week long business trip, I checked on my Spitfire, and noticed the 12v system was low. I measured the voltage and it was barely above 7v. Measuring the individual cells showed the 4 cells at: 0.4v, 1.3v, 2.9v, and 3.0v respectively

Unfortunately while I was away, I wasn't there to see the warnings, and didn't have an automatic disconnect-on-low-voltage system, so the lowest two cells are toast. I removed the cells and the lowest two are bloated. 

These cells were Hi-Power, which are no longer available, so I couldn't just buy new ones to fit in the 12v battery box. 

To replace them, I bought 'New Energy" 60Ah, aluminum case cells from Electric Car Parts Company. They are smaller and lighter than the Hi-Power and have a higher cycle life of 3700 cycles. (I think it's rather funny that they misspelled RoHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) compliance.










I bought them as a '12v' pack, which came with the bus-bars, and top and bottom plastic parts to help hold the 4 cells together. In this pic, I was checking on the fit in the Spitfire's 12v battery compartment.










Fabricated an aluminum housing for the cells:









Using 1/8th inch Makrolon, I cut the shape for a top cover, and started the bending operation:









Resulting on the top for the new 12v pack:









Dropped the cells into the new housing:









And mounted into the car. It even gave me room to install the windshield washer reservoir:










So, up and running again. The 12V system has a small continuous current draw of about 100ma from the Android entertainment system. This must have been enough to drain them down. The 1-week continuous draw would have been a little less than 17ah. I'm also guessing that the HiPower 60ah cells did not actually have 60ah capacity. I'm going to run a capacity test on one of the cells that was not damaged just to see where it stood.

I'll also setup a hard cut-off using a latching relay to cut-off all 12v power if the battery goes below 3.1v on any of the cells.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Too bad on the failure of cells in the 12V system- instead I have a constant drain on my main pack to run my DC/DC to keep my 12V U1 lawn tractor floodie full. The EV Expert Ah monitor integrates that small current wrong, but conservatively, so I always think I have a little less in my drive pack than I really have.

Your workmanship is so neat and tidy, and I love the riot of colours in your build! 

Looking forward to see what you build next! Unfortunately we can't store any more cars, so another build is out of the question for me!


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## ponobill (May 29, 2014)

Wow, is that an actual Variac you're using to control the heat to the plastic bending rig? I haven't seen one of those since high school in 1965.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

ponobill said:


> Wow, is that an actual Variac you're using to control the heat to the plastic bending rig? I haven't seen one of those since high school in 1965.


Yes it is a Variac.. ☺

Very good for regulating temperature on my heating filaments. I have a couple different lengths and with the Variac I just adjust the output voltage to get the right temperature. Simple device with not much that could break..


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I have a Variac too- lovely, bomb-proof things with all sorts of uses, as long as you remember that they're not isolated...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Quick update here... 

In process of installing complete new interior so the 'Spit is in the garage for a while.

Also latest news on performance, over the last 200 miles I am getting 215 watt hours per mile... which is a little better than I expected.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Fantastic!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

So, I've been working on the interior of the 'Spit. It's taking shape but still has work to do before it's complete.




















I have to say that driving around town is quite an experience. I just ran a quick errand to the hardware store, and was stopped 6 times by people asking about the car. They were all astounded when I told them it was electric and I was asked quite a lot of questions!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Clean Looking Ride. Impressive.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks onegreenev!

The interior is now nearly complete... only a couple touch-ups left to do and perhaps fabricate a glove box for the passenger side of the dash. (but that's for another day).


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I wanted to backup a little and show the final pieces of the trans tunnel ... the part that mates with the firewall.

Due to the limited space, and the size of the T5 transmission, it was a pretty complex piece to get built correctly and installed in the car. It may be of use to anyone else who embarks on a Spitfire conversion.

Here's what I was up against on the final piece. The T5 is bigger than the original so it was a pretty tight fit.

Metal working isn't something I have a lot of experience in so I made the final trans tunnel in several pieces. For the first two parts, I used CAD to get them right then welded together. After that I did a number of trial fits, taking measurements and adding to the piece until it was right.

Here's how it ended up. The large cut-out in the side had to be there to allow clearance for the clutch slave cylinder. I made another piece that bolts over that part.



















Getting it the car was a tight squeeze...










Ultimately, It fit nicely but wasn't easy getting it right.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I cleaned up the wiring and carpeted the trunk. I still need to put in the nema 14-50 and J1772 inlets, but that will be a bolt-on part that will rest in the right side of the battery box.

While putting the car together, I was more interested in getting the wiring correct and working than how it looked. So I had a fair amount of cleanup to do. Here's some of what it looked like










A while ago I bought a yard of outdoor black carpet for use in the trunk. I trial-fitted and cut the pieces to fit in the trunk and use spray-on adhesive to hold it down. A couple areas needed a specially cut piece.









I still need to put in an enclosure for the sub-woofer but I decided to put in a second sub-woofer so I'll build that next week.

For lighting in the trunk, I put in blue LED lighting strips around the outer edges under the interior lip of the trunk area. I like the way they look, but didn't expect it to give a black-light effect.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> I wanted to backup a little and show the final pieces of the trans tunnel ... the part that mates with the firewall.
> 
> Due to the limited space, and the size of the T5 transmission, it was a pretty complex piece to get built correctly and installed in the car. It may be of use to anyone else who embarks on a Spitfire conversion..


Can you tell us more about why you settled on a T5 transmission? Where you got your motor/tranny adaptor plate? and refresh my memory on what you ended up with from there back.... custom driveshaft I am assuming. what about rear differential/axle?

Reason I am asking is I am in planning stage for a '62 Sunbeam Alpine. Entire driveline will have to go as they were designed for less than 100 ft# of torque! I am contemplating going the WHOLE enchilada and transplanting the driveline from *something* including rear diff, and perhaps suspension, w modern disc brakes!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> Can you tell us more about why you settled on a T5 transmission? Where you got your motor/tranny adaptor plate? and refresh my memory on what you ended up with from there back.... custom driveshaft I am assuming. what about rear differential/axle?


Hey,
I looked at quite a number of options before getting the T5. Starting point of that discussion in this thread is on the page starting at: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/79-spitfire-conversion-108210p7.html

Ultimately the T5 that I picked fit better than other options I looked at, was strong enough for the Warp9's torque, and provided a standard driving experience (as opposed to the more exotic Bert tranny). Because it was from a Ford SVO turbo 4cylinder engine the bell housing was small enough to fit through my firewall and the length was good enough. 

I had a custom drive shaft made by taking the original Spitfire shaft and putting the u-joint/Yoke from the donor onto the front of the original drive shaft. 

I didn't do anything with the differential -- it's more rugged that the original transmission was and there are a few other Spitfire conversions here where it works good enough.

It looks like you'll be doing quite a bit more work than I did on the driveline. I'll be very interested to see how it turns out


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I've been enjoying driving my EV Spitfire for a while now. Here's a quick video I put together of a drive in the 'Spit...






and I've still got that EV Grin!

... If you can't see the embedded video, click this link:https://youtu.be/VMze7RdYhxY


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I finally setup my CNC and decided to test it out with a simple project. 

My shifter boot was only glued down to the console, and over time it became unglued. So in order to test/learn my CNC, I created a shifter boot holder in CAD, then milled it out.

It was in two parts, a base that screwed into the console with sheet metal screws, and a top that bolts onto the base. The shifter boot material ls clamped between the two pieces and held in place.

First, I milled the base










Next, the top component. 









Then the base mounted onto the console:










And finally, the finished/painted top piece mounted with the boot in place:









Yes, it is a pretty simplistic project, but it was a good learning experience. I'm looking forward to using the CNC for more complex part fabrication.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

very pretty work! As always on your projects. 

Reminds me to ask since you have a nice looking stereo. Do you have problems with static on FM radio? 

In my eMiata I have tremendous static on the radio, but not when I play CDs. Leads me to think it is not the power supply, but rather the way I have batteries cabled interfering with the antenna. Any thoughts on that? Any good way to test or shield the antenna?

My fear is that it is the radio proximity to the Zilla controller in the eMiata, which is almost directly opposite on the other side of the firewall. I don't know what I can try to tell where the static comes from.....


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> Reminds me to ask since you have a nice looking stereo. Do you have problems with static on FM radio?
> 
> In my eMiata I have tremendous static on the radio, but not when I play CDs. Leads me to think it is not the power supply, but rather the way I have batteries cabled interfering with the antenna. Any thoughts on that? Any good way to test or shield the antenna? ....


Hey, thanks for the compliment!

On the radio, mine works well without much interference. I live in a hilly area so it sometimes does go in and out depending on where I'm driving. I have to admit I don't use the radio very often as I have a 256GB USB drive plugged into the back of my console filled with about 9000 tracks of music  

Generally speaking, the farther you can get your antenna away from a noise generating component such as the motor or controller, the better. On my car, the antenna is on the very back of the car with a shielded cable bringing it up to the in-dash stereo. Perhaps you can add an aftermarket antenna to yours and locate it away from the noise sources?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> Hey, thanks for the compliment!


you deserve it! very nice work!



Baratong said:


> Generally speaking, the farther you can get your antenna away from a noise generating component such as the motor or controller, the better. On my car, the antenna is on the very back of the car with a shielded cable bringing it up to the in-dash stereo. Perhaps you can add an aftermarket antenna to yours and locate it away from the noise sources?


My antenna is in the right rear fender... but there are some batteries fairly close by in the spare tire wheel well, and another loop behind the seats where the gas tank was. I can't tell if this is the source of the interference, or if it is because the controller is just on the other side of the firewall from the radio itself. I am THINKING it is the antenna since there is no static when playing CDs. But, I don't know how I can add any more shielding to antenna to test theory.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I had the electric Spitfire in its first car show. It was a huge show, with hundreds of cars. A lot of people would come by the Spitfire, look under the hood, then literally do a double-take. Most figured out it's an electric car, and a lot of people had dozens of questions about it.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

beautiful day, beautiful car!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well done on the show! They're a lot of fun when you have something cool and unusual! Especially yours- it's very sharp, and must be a pleasure to show!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Well done on the show! They're a lot of fun when you have something cool and unusual! Especially yours- it's very sharp, and must be a pleasure to show!


Hey thanks... the car looks better in the pictures than it really is. I'm going to have it repainted in a month or two.

I had my EV Spitfire in another car show over the weekend. There were 192 cars in this show, and mine was the only electric.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

i came home from an extended business trip to find that my 12v pack completely drained. All 4 cells were below 1v. Fortunately, there wasn't any bloating, or physical damage to these cells. 

I carefully charged each cell up to 3.2volts, then connected the bus-bars and gave it a normal charge from the 12v charger. 










The pack recovered nicely, with no signs of damage. I'm pretty sure what happened was the lighting in the trunk didn't turn off when the lid was closed. This would have put about a 700ma constant drain that could explain what happened. I was using the original 1979 contact switch in the trunk, which is now replaced with a new one.

Like a number of others here on the forums I was using PhotoBucket to host my images I used here. They decided a month or 2 ago that they weren't going to allow 3rd party hosting anymore and turned off my pictures on my thread that were hosted by PhotoBucket. PhotoBucket also magnanimously offered to turn the pics back on if I paid them $400 -- I declined. Today I spent the time to d/l all images from PhotoBucket and upload them here to get my thread readable again.

The car is running great. I drive it almost every time I leave the house and still have my EV grin...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Baratong said:


> Like a number of others here on the forums I was using PhotoBucket to host my images I used here. They decided a month or 2 ago that they weren't going to allow 3rd party hosting anymore and turned off my pictures on my thread that were hosted by PhotoBucket. PhotoBucket also magnanimously offered to turn the pics back on if I paid them $400 -- I declined. Today I spent the time to d/l all images from PhotoBucket and upload them here to get my thread readable again.


Thanks! 

That's the best long-term solution. For a short-term fix, I added the "photobucket embed fix" extension to Chrome (the browser that I normally use), which makes the Photobucket links work.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> i came home from an extended business trip to find that my 12v pack completely drained. All 4 cells were below 1v. Fortunately, there wasn't any bloating, or physical damage to these cells.
> 
> I carefully charged each cell up to 3.2volts, then connected the bus-bars and gave it a normal charge from the 12v charger.
> 
> ...



lucky you!

I had a similar scare, not quite as bad when I left the car sitting for 2 or 3 weeks, and the small constant drain from the DC-DC (always on), and whatever the clock and radio pull in the background were enought to draw the pack down fairly low.

Now, if I know I'm not going to drive for a week or more, I disconnect the main circuit breaker, which shuts all parasitic loads off.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> lucky you!
> 
> I had a similar scare, not quite as bad when I left the car sitting for 2 or 3 weeks, and the small constant drain from the DC-DC (always on), and whatever the clock and radio pull in the background were enought to draw the pack down fairly low.
> 
> Now, if I know I'm not going to drive for a week or more, I disconnect the main circuit breaker, which shuts all parasitic loads off.



Fortunately with your traction pack, you had a deeper well to draw on. It would really be expensive if you damaged it though... I would guess it would take a lot to drain your pack low enough to cause damage?

I've been meaning to put in a cut-off switch that will disconnect if the 12v pack voltage gets low.

This isn't the first time I've done this... about a year ago I did the same thing. Post starts here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=817241&postcount=211

That time two of the cells bloated and vented. After a few weeks their bloating went down and I started experimenting. I brought them all back to life but they have reduced capacity. They were 60ah cells but those two are 42ah, and 46ah respectively. The two that didn't bloat test out at 55ah, and 57ah.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Long overdue update

I've been driving my Spitfire for a couple years now. I figured it's time to fix the cosmetics so I have it in a local body shop doing a complete 'show car' makeover. It's going to take a few weeks and I'm anxious to see the results. 

So far while evaluating the amount of work, they have found bondo up to a half inch thick in some spots on the car(!). They will be removing the bondo and doing a proper body repair. 

I'm anxious to see the results as I'm changing the color to a dark metal flake blue.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Cool! Wow, wish I had a better starting point like yours to make this worthwhile...but I do love my orange-peel E-Fire! Itching to get it back on the road- newly rebuilt diff, balanced driveshaft etc. But we're in the middle of a severe ice storm right now- between weather and business travel I doubt I'll be on the road until the 1st week of May.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Cool! Wow, wish I had a better starting point like yours to make this worthwhile...but I do love my orange-peel E-Fire! Itching to get it back on the road- newly rebuilt diff, balanced driveshaft etc. But we're in the middle of a severe ice storm right now- between weather and business travel I doubt I'll be on the road until the 1st week of May.


I like the color of your E-Fire... and your paint job looks great btw.... You would probably just need some buffing to flatten out any orange-peel? Or would it be more complicated?

Anyway, glad to see you're ready to get back on the road with the drive-train upgrades.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I got my Spitfire back from the body shop. I'm happy to finally have a nice paint job on the car. After 30 days, when the paint is fully cured, I'm taking it back to have a 'cut and buff'.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

WOW!

That paint job is stunning. What a gorgeous vehicle.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Wow, What a Sharp looking car. Hats off to you for a fine job. Now we get a video right?


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Ooohhh, shiny! Nice.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Very fancy- and all you had to do was pick a good place and open your wallet! Hey- is that a GT6 bonnet on there now?


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OMG- that's just the reflection of the building in the shine off the bonnet...hats off if that's before it's been buffed- begs the question of why bother! Unbelievable...


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## Pop-boy racer103 (Apr 26, 2018)

What a great looking car, shame about those hideous bumpers, I remember when they brought those in on the export models. Those cars just don't fetch good money compared with the chrome bumper models. I guess you are stuck with them.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

It's possible to fit chrome bumpers with some work, if you can find them- they're not plentiful either.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

When they first came out the "Hideous" bumpers were a bit of a shock

Personally I find that they grow on you - and nowadays they look just as good as the chrome bumper cars


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

We have the chrome bumpers and I prefer them - largely because they are more appropriate to the period of the body design (which ended long before Triumph stopped making them ) - but by the end they required large rubber blocks on them, which can be visually jarring. And I have misplaced one of them from the front... I need to find that!


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## rbzig (Oct 15, 2015)

Wow, beautiful build from the ground up. Thanks for sharing. What color? I have decided on a Chrysler blue for my Spit. The bumpers are shocking at first but do grow on you. Keep them...


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## Pop-boy racer103 (Apr 26, 2018)

Although the later ones had rubber bumpers the uk models never had those bits sticking out that far


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

rbzig said:


> Wow, beautiful build from the ground up.


Hey thanks.



rbzig said:


> Thanks for sharing. What color? I have decided on a Chrysler blue for my Spit. The bumpers are shocking at first but do grow on you. Keep them...


The color is GM 'Admiral Blue' code WA7O5U.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Regarding the bumpers, I have mixed feelings on them. At first I was set on retrofitting the chrome bumpers. After a while, with all the changes I made to this car, I decided to keep the original huge black bumpers. -- they kind of grew on me over time.

Now that I have the fresh paint, I'm leaning towards retrofitting the crhome ones again. The black bumpers on now are original and have scratches and generally don't look that good up close.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> OMG- that's just the reflection of the building in the shine off the bonnet...hats off if that's before it's been buffed- begs the question of why bother! Unbelievable...


Yes, this is the paint before the 'cut & buff' that I have scheduled for first week of June. They did a great job on the paint and the body work. Both rear quarter panels were mostly bondo. The accident this car was in before I got it was repaired by layering bondo on instead of fixing the metal. The body shop I had do this work took off all the bondo and properly fixed the metal -- took them 20hours of work to do repair.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Last Saturday I had the '79 Spitfire in the first car-show of the year. It was an 'electric car showcase' ad Embry-Riddle University.

While I neglected taking pictures at the show, I thought I'd share the Spitfire's pic the morning of...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

very pretty!
...what did you end up doing for transmission/adaptor/clutch ?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> very pretty!
> ...what did you end up doing for transmission/adaptor/clutch ?



I used a T5 / 'world class' 5-speed transmission. I bought the adapter from CanEV. It went together pretty easy. 



It's still running strong..


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> I used a T5 / 'world class' 5-speed transmission. I bought the adapter from CanEV. It went together pretty easy.
> It's still running strong..


GREAT! I'm glad to hear that CanEV started stocking T5 adaptors; they didn't have that design available when I checked years ago. I'm considering a '62 Sunbeam Alpine, and I did NOT want to use the original tranny! I'd have to cut the original tunnel, but no worries there.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> .... I'd have to cut the original tunnel, but no worries there.


I built a whole new trans tunnel too. The T5 was a lot bigger than the original Leyland tranny. I built the new tunnel out of aluminum sheet, and made it in a number of pieces.

Here's a pic of the back two-thirds of the tunnel: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=749962&postcount=140

Final piece: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/79-spitfire-conversion-108210p23.html


This forum has dropped all of my pictures 3 times. After the last time I was a little tired of re-uploading all of the pics, so the first 3rd or so of the build thread still doesn't have any pics.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> I also got the original parking brake mechanism built into my new trans tunnel and it works pretty well..



very nice.....!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Made some mods to the interior and had to fix the shifter as the old (bodged up) aluminum handle broke. Made the new one from steel, and won't break again.











Had the Spitfire in a car show recently. I noticed that there seems to be a lot more interest in electric cars than there used to be. This was the first car show that nobody sneered at. Most people asked lots of questions about it.


Only took a couple of pics at the car show:


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

It's been about a year since my last post. Every thing is running fine.

Just charging after taking the Spitfire out for a roll!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> It's been about a year since my last post. Every thing is running fine.
> 
> Just charging after taking the Spitfire out for a roll!


SWEEEEET! Looking really good!
How many electric miles on it now?
What did you end up doing for transmission/adaptor/differential?

I'm trying to get a picture of how various builds are holding up under use...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Dan,

I started selection at post #62, started the installation at post #74

I chose a Borg Warner T5/WC tranny. It was unusual in that it was the "World Class" version but had the small bell -- which fit my car fairly well. It came out of a Ford Thunderbird with the turbo-charged 4-cylinder.

I modeled a number of transmissions to calculate how it would run in the Spitfire. This transmission had the gearing to work well in my car.


I've worked from my home office for years, so I don't put many miles on my cars. I have just a little over 2000 miles on my Spitfire.

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=116587&stc=1&d=1588092187


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Baratong said:


> Dan,
> 
> I started selection at post #62, started the installation at post #74
> 
> ...


great info.....

Did you make any changes to rear diff to handle torque or higher gearing?

reason I ask is that I've gone thru several iterations of transmission upgrades in my eMiata, and still not very happy with it. I have 160v nominal batteries, Warp9, and Zilla1k. And the short story is:

-initial build with stock clutch, I found starting in 1st or even second to induce too much wheel spin and red-line too quickly to get thru the gears. I started in 3rd a lot. BUT, the stock clutch slipped a little after 10k miles or so.

- I upgraded to a stage 2 clutch, AL flywheel, and removed the starter ring while I was in there.... much better, but peeled all the teeth off my 3rd gear after about 10k more miles. replaced transmission, and starting in 1st for hard starts as I think the gear is stronger.... but going thru the gears fast is difficult, and my top end acceleration tails off above 80mph as I approach my programmed 'redline' at 4500 rpm.

THIS is why I'm asking if you did anything with your rear diff to raise the overall gear ratio. I was poking around diff ratios and find that the stock '94 miata was 4.1 .... and I am considering transplanting something with a MUCH lower ratio, say from a Mustang, that went down to 2.73

thoughts? comments ?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dan

I would suggest that you simply dump the gearbox! - use direct drive 
And your motor can cope with a bit more than 4,500 rpm - 6,000 rpm would be a sensible "conservative" max rpm for a Warp 9


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## 266917 (May 4, 2020)

dtbaker said:


> can you post details on where to get the brake kit and tools... there are way too many choices in the tool catalogs. Just something basic, that works. I will have to completely replace 50 year old brakelines in the alpine.... as well as consider a switch to disc all around I think.
> 
> Have you guys run across a reasonable swap from a modern vehicle like a Miata or something of comparable size... just transplanting the entire disc and caliper?


For Spitfire/GT6, they should have come with front discs, and so far in my case that's the least problematic thing on the car. The rear drum cylinders are pretty much garbage, even buying new from parts vendors. 

Before getting too elaborate trying to retrofit brakes to an axle that didn't belong to it, I'd look into just fitting a whole Miata rear end. You don't want brakes to fail, and I'll happily take advantage of the engineering that's already gone into it.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Richter12x2 said:


> For Spitfire/GT6, they should have come with front discs, and so far in my case that's the least problematic thing on the car. The rear drum cylinders are pretty much garbage, even buying new from parts vendors.
> 
> Before getting too elaborate trying to retrofit brakes to an axle that didn't belong to it, I'd look into just fitting a whole Miata rear end. You don't want brakes to fail, and I'll happily take advantage of the engineering that's already gone into it.


yeah.... I'm actually considering transplanting the driveline from a 'modern' Mustang.


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## 266917 (May 4, 2020)

dtbaker said:


> yeah.... I'm actually considering transplanting the driveline from a 'modern' Mustang.


Make sure you measure. We have a '67 Triumph GT6 and a '94 Mustang, and you can almost measure the width difference in feet.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Richter12x2 said:


> Before getting too elaborate trying to retrofit brakes to an axle that didn't belong to it, I'd look into just fitting a whole Miata rear end. You don't want brakes to fail, and I'll happily take advantage of the engineering that's already gone into it.


What do you mean by "a whole Miata rear end"? Final drive (differential), axle shafts, hubs, hub carriers, brakes, and suspension? That quickly becomes a massive project; it would be far easier (and produce a better car) to just buy a Miata and convert it to an EV.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Richter12x2 said:


> Make sure you measure. We have a '67 Triumph GT6 and a '94 Mustang, and you can almost measure the width difference in feet.


I know, the old Brits are tiny narrow, even compared to a Miata. I'll backtrack on my plans a little to say more what I'm thinking is the suspension/brakes from a Miata, but rear diff & transmission from mustang for taller gears and more torque without breaking.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dtbaker;1057089 said:


> I'll backtrack on my plans a little to say more what I'm thinking is the suspension/brakes from a Miata, but rear diff & transmission from mustang for taller gears and more torque without breaking.


It would still be easier and in many ways better to put Mustang driveline bits into an EV-converted Miata. And Camaro bits are just as strong and easier, because it has already been done many times (for the people putting LS V8's into Miatas).


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

brian_ said:


> It would still be easier and in many ways better to put Mustang driveline bits into an EV-converted Miata. And Camaro bits are just as strong and easier, because it has already been done many times (for the people putting LS V8's into Miatas).


I've already converted a Miata, and it's great, except for the transmission and rear diff.  and I may do exactly the upgrade you're talking about for the Miata.....

But I also have a nice body 1962 Sunbeam Alpine, not running, that I'm dying to convert. Knowing what I know about the Alpine, the tranny, diff, and whole suspension/brake mess has to go and switch to something modern.

but..... let's not take over this Spitfire Thread with details on the Alpine.  I'll start a thread on that if and when I start it.


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## 266917 (May 4, 2020)

brian_ said:


> What do you mean by "a whole Miata rear end"? Final drive (differential), axle shafts, hubs, hub carriers, brakes, and suspension? That quickly becomes a massive project; it would be far easier (and produce a better car) to just buy a Miata and convert it to an EV.


But then you'd have a Miata as an EV and not something really interesting. No offense to Miatas, but there were a lot of them and they're not that old. A Triumph or MG or Austin Healey will turn a lot more heads and be a lot cooler, not to mention that they're already set up for manual brakes, manual steering, etc, so that you're not having to reengineer all of those systems just to make it work.

And, yes, there are many things on a rear end, but they are all mounted to the axle. So if you're going to buy parts from the parts store, yes, you're talking about differential, axle shafts, hubs, hub carriers, brakes, springs, and shocks, but since all of those things are bolted to the axle system already, then you get all of that pretty quickly when you remove the rear end at the scrap yard. 

If they're leaf spring rear ends (probably not) then you've just got a bolt at either end of each leaf, one at the top of the shocks, the brake lines and the e-brake cable and it's off. If they're struts, then it's roughly the same but instead of a through bolt at each end of the leaf, then you'll have 3 nuts at the top of the strut package.

But better, all of those things are designed to work together, so when you hit the brakes in a panic at 80mph on the highway, the calipers won't rip off the mounts you fabricated to fit them to a part they weren't designed for. As long as the axle itself is mounted to the car, the rest is designed to work together.

There's information out there about width and dimensions of various rear axles, which is why the 1955 GMC truck I've got is getting a disc brake rear end out of a 96 Camaro, because the width is correct to a 1/2". Yes, I've got to grind off the coil perches and weld on the leaf spring perch, but the brackets, brake rotors, calipers, and all that are already designed to work together and proven to last at least 20 years.

Oh, and I didn't realize that Miatas were IRS - if they're not a solid tube axle, then you should take a look at something that is, because it'll be easier to fit to a Triumph Spitfire/Gt6 if that's your base. They used a single sideways mounted leaf spring, so it'd be much easier to mount perches for that on top of an axle tube, and then you're not having to weld in reinforcement for the coils at the top, or add regular leaf brackets to the chassis side. So instead of Miata rear ends, you might try looking at Mazda B-series pickup (or it's sister, the Ford Ranger), but even that's probably wider than you want, so you may be stuck cutting to length. 

Going to a solid rear axle in those cars would also solve one of the major problems those cars suffered from which is sudden lift-off oversteer in a corner, due to the wheels wanting to tuck underneath the car. That's why a lot of those cars, in England, have been known to go rocketing backwards through a hedge. At least for Spitfires up to about 4th gen and GT6 Series 1.


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## 266917 (May 4, 2020)

dtbaker said:


> But I also have a nice body 1962 Sunbeam Alpine, not running, that I'm dying to convert. Knowing what I know about the Alpine, the tranny, diff, and whole suspension/brake mess has to go and switch to something modern.


I'd be really excited to see that done. How much of the Alpine parts are shared with the Tiger? The Tiger had a v8 if I'm not mistaken, in the same body, so it ought to be at least marginally more built for torque. Unless you're looking for something ridiculous as far as electric power goes, then it may hold up better than stock, and be designed to fit with less effort, maybe?

This may be a case where you could also use direct drive, not just to simplify the transmission but also to reduce your instant torque to safe levels so you don't grenade the rear end?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Richter12x2 said:


> But then you'd have a Miata as an EV and not something really interesting. No offense to Miatas, but there were a lot of them and they're not that old.


If it's all about body style, with nothing of the original car underneath, then some things can be done which would make no sense otherwise.



Richter12x2 said:


> A Triumph or MG or Austin Healey will turn a lot more heads and be a lot cooler, not to mention that they're already set up for manual brakes, manual steering, etc, so that you're not having to reengineer all of those systems just to make it work.


Manual steering is available for a Miata. Yes, brake boosting is an issue, but that's nothing compared to fitting a completely different rear suspension under a Spitfire.



Richter12x2 said:


> And, yes, there are many things on a rear end, but they are all mounted to the axle. So if you're going to buy parts from the parts store, yes, you're talking about differential, axle shafts, hubs, hub carriers, brakes, springs, and shocks, but since all of those things are bolted to the axle system already, then you get all of that pretty quickly when you remove the rear end at the scrap yard.


Getting the salvaged parts out of the donor is trivial - they're all mounted to a subframe in many cases, including the Miata. That's not the issue.



Richter12x2 said:


> If they're leaf spring rear ends (probably not) then you've just got a bolt at either end of each leaf, one at the top of the shocks, the brake lines and the e-brake cable and it's off. If they're struts, then it's roughly the same but instead of a through bolt at each end of the leaf, then you'll have 3 nuts at the top of the strut package.
> 
> But better, all of those things are designed to work together, so when you hit the brakes in a panic at 80mph on the highway, the calipers won't rip off the mounts you fabricated to fit them to a part they weren't designed for. As long as the axle itself is mounted to the car, the rest is designed to work together.


It doesn't work that way. There are not frame points conveniently located in a Spitfire where a completely different suspension system needs them to be. Even between two beam-axle leaf-spring vehicles it's not trivial, between two IRS vehicles nothing is likely to line up, and of course fitting one type of suspension into a vehicle designed for the opposite means starting structural design from scratch, if the parts even fit under the body. Many project discussions in this forum start with grand plans of radical suspension changes, and few of them are actually built because it is never easy and often not practical.

Yes, parts need to work together, which also means that the rear suspension and brakes need to work properly with the front suspension and brakes.



Richter12x2 said:


> There's information out there about width and dimensions of various rear axles, which is why the 1955 GMC truck I've got is getting a disc brake rear end out of a 96 Camaro, because the width is correct to a 1/2". Yes, I've got to grind off the coil perches and weld on the leaf spring perch, but the brackets, brake rotors, calipers, and all that are already designed to work together and proven to last at least 20 years.


Yes, if you're swapping one beam axle for another, it's pretty easy. That is irrelevant to a Spitfire, or to any other IRS vehicle.



Richter12x2 said:


> Oh, and I didn't realize that Miatas were IRS - if they're not a solid tube axle, then you should take a look at something that is, because it'll be easier to fit to a Triumph Spitfire/Gt6 if that's your base. They used a single sideways mounted leaf spring, so it'd be much easier to mount perches for that on top of an axle tube, and then you're not having to weld in reinforcement for the coils at the top, or add regular leaf brackets to the chassis side. So instead of Miata rear ends, you might try looking at Mazda B-series pickup (or it's sister, the Ford Ranger), but even that's probably wider than you want, so you may be stuck cutting to length.


Right - no one has built a beam-axle sports car for decades, and if you don't know anything about the design of the proposed donor it's understandable that you would suggest nonsensical uses of the donor parts.

Beam axles were used for many years, so if you want a beam-axle car, why start with a Spitfire? Nearly any random 1950's or 1960's British sports car would be a better candidate, already designed for and equipped with a beam axle.

And putting a beam axle in a Spitfire using the transverse leaf would not be so easy, since there is only a single mounting point on each side for a control arm, and no space for most of the common upper control arm arrangements. You might be able to squeeze in the lousy rear suspension of the Chevette (and other models based on the same Opel platform), if you really want to downgrade the Spitfire.



Richter12x2 said:


> Going to a solid rear axle in those cars would also solve one of the major problems those cars suffered from which is sudden lift-off oversteer in a corner, due to the wheels wanting to tuck underneath the car. That's why a lot of those cars, in England, have been known to go rocketing backwards through a hedge. At least for Spitfires up to about 4th gen and GT6 Series 1.


That's why the Mark V / 1500 has a pivoting leaf spring which essentially fixes the problem. Putting in a completely different system which is inappropriate for the car doesn't seem like a rational solution to simply updating to the better design already found in Spitfires.


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## 266917 (May 4, 2020)

brian_ said:


> If it's all about body style, with nothing of the original car underneath, then some things can be done which would make no sense otherwise.


I feel like if it weren't about body style, at least a little bit, we'd all drive used Leafs and be done with it. We can shut the forum down boys, we've solved it!



> Manual steering is available for a Miata. Yes, brake boosting is an issue, but that's nothing compared to fitting a completely different rear suspension under a Spitfire.


First, you've taken it out of context, my suggestion was INSTEAD of trying to modify a Mustang rear suspension, you should look at something closer to the same size. Yes, it's still substantial work, but much less than Frankensteining 3 cars together and having any expectation that it'll work correctly, reliably afterwards. 



> Getting the salvaged parts out of the donor is trivial - they're all mounted to a subframe in many cases, including the Miata. That's not the issue.


My point is, as owner of a Spitfire/GT6, I know how the rear suspension mounts, and it'd be much easier to use a solid rear axle than IRS.



> It doesn't work that way. There are not frame points conveniently located in a Spitfire where a completely different suspension system needs them to be.


 Oh please tell me more about how it works - I'll try respond back when I've come back in from welding new spring perches on the rear end I have sitting in my garage right now for one of the projects I'm working on. 



> Many project discussions in this forum start with grand plans of radical suspension changes, and few of them are actually built because it is never easy and often not practical.


That's why I suggested looking into a more practical alternative than a Mustang rear-end under a Spitfire. Unless you get into fairly recently, the majority of Mustangs were solid rear-axles as well.



> Yes, parts need to work together, which also means that the rear suspension and brakes need to work properly with the front suspension and brakes.


 If only there were some sort of... valve you could get to adjust brake bias. Or some way to use the same spring that's already part of the suspension. 



> Yes, if you're swapping one beam axle for another, it's pretty easy. That is irrelevant to a Spitfire, or to any other IRS vehicle.


What makes it relevant is that Spitfire's transverse leaf spring suspension makes it suit a solid rear axle very well. I'm not sure if you've seen it, or disassembled and rebuilt it, like I have, but if you take a look, you'll see what I'm talking about.



> Right - no one has built a beam-axle sports car for decades, and if you don't know anything about the design of the proposed donor it's understandable that you would suggest nonsensical uses of the donor parts.


I guess if you exclude the Mustang, which used a solid rear axle up to 2015. Camaro started a few years earlier in 2010, but that's one decade, not 'decades'. So you'd almost have a point here if you exclude the most common sports cars in the world.



> Beam axles were used for many years, so if you want a beam-axle car, why start with a Spitfire? Nearly any random 1950's or 1960's British sports car would be a better candidate, already designed for and equipped with a beam axle.


Because the original question was about a Spitfire, and the decision to switch to a stronger rear end was already foregone conclusion.



> And putting a beam axle in a Spitfire using the transverse leaf would not be so easy, since there is only a single mounting point on each side for a control arm


Which is why I said a solid rear axle would be easier. You don't need a separate control arm. The hubs, caliper brackets, disk brakes, calipers all mount to the axle tube. The two shocks would keep the factory locations. You'd just need to add provision for the leaf spring brackets on the axle tube. Transverse leaf spring mounts to the axle tube, factory spring rate is maintained, and all the other pieces have been professionally engineered to work together. Yes, adjust your brake bias, please. 



> That's why the Mark V / 1500 has a pivoting leaf spring which essentially fixes the problem. Putting in a completely different system which is inappropriate for the car doesn't seem like a rational solution to simply updating to the better design already found in Spitfires.


Funny, most people who drive them agree that the Rotoflex was the better solution and the 'swing spring' design was better than the 'swing axle' design, but not by a lot.

I prefer IRS to a solid rear axle as well, but if the better design already found in Spitfires won't handle the torque, and keeping the stock rear suspension isn't feasible, then I still maintain a suitable width solid rear axle is going to give you better, safer results than mocking up your own custom conglomeration of parts.


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## Bakertw0 (Sep 9, 2020)

This was a great thread to read through! Excellent Quality job, love the execution. Thank you for posting all this.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Since this thread was revived, I have decided to respond to some of the nonsense which I had previously ignored...



Richter12x2 said:


> First, you've taken it out of context, my suggestion was INSTEAD of trying to modify a Mustang rear suspension, you should look at something closer to the same size. Yes, it's still substantial work, but much less than Frankensteining 3 cars together and having any expectation that it'll work correctly, reliably afterwards.


Your original suggestion was to use the live beam rear axle that you thought was in a Miata, and only advised against the Mustang live rear axle due to the excessive width. "Frankenstein" certainly describes any of the live rear axle transplants which you have proposed.



Richter12x2 said:


> My point is, as owner of a Spitfire/GT6, I know how the rear suspension mounts, and it'd be much easier to use a solid rear axle than IRS.


As owner of a Spitfire, I know how the rear suspension mounts, and there is no room for a beam rear axle to move vertically; the diff housing would be against the spring mount (that's how the car is designed) and so zero compression travel would be possible.



Richter12x2 said:


> Oh please tell me more about how it works - I'll try respond back when I've come back in from welding new spring perches on the rear end I have sitting in my garage right now for one of the projects I'm working on.


Please post your presumably now completed live rear axle Spitfire or GT6.



Richter12x2 said:


> If only there were some sort of... valve you could get to adjust brake bias.


If you think that a proportioning valve provides a proper solution to poor brake system design, you are mistaken.



Richter12x2 said:


> What makes it relevant is that Spitfire's transverse leaf spring suspension makes it suit a solid rear axle very well. I'm not sure if you've seen it, or disassembled and rebuilt it, like I have, but if you take a look, you'll see what I'm talking about.


I have certainly seen my Spitfire, and others. The transverse spring could be used with any type of suspension (although they haven't been used with beam axles on production vehicles for about 80 years), but that doesn't make any random suspension viable.



Richter12x2 said:


> Which is why I said a solid rear axle would be easier. You don't need a separate control arm. The hubs, caliper brackets, disk brakes, calipers all mount to the axle tube. The two shocks would keep the factory locations. You'd just need to add provision for the leaf spring brackets on the axle tube. Transverse leaf spring mounts to the axle tube, factory spring rate is maintained, and all the other pieces have been professionally engineered to work together.


You forgot about control arms. Yes, one control arm per side could go forward to the stock mounts. Yes, mounts could be fabricated for other control arms, but the conversion would not be a matter of just tacking some brackets on the axle tube.


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