# Would any of these motors be any good for a converson



## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Anything 460 volt is too high a voltage... needs far too many batteries unless you are going lithium ion which are very expensive... If your conversion is really lightweight...like a geo metro, 10hp might be doable. The 3hp are too small. 15-30 hp is what I've heard work best... I'm still a newb myself though. 

What is your conversion vehicle? Have do decided on ac motor or dc motor yet?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

adeyo said:


> Anything 460 volt is too high a voltage... needs far too many batteries unless you are going lithium ion which are very expensive... If your conversion is really lightweight...like a geo metro, 10hp might be doable. The 3hp are too small. 15-30 hp is what I've heard work best... I'm still a newb myself though.
> 
> What is your conversion vehicle? Have do decided on ac motor or dc motor yet?


Rigghhhtttt. for starters 460V is not too high, I would say that Lithium is the standard on here now and Pb is the odd one out, the prices have come a lot closer together. 30hp is not enough really for any useable conversion. 

All of the above motors are industrial 3 phase, which are not suitible for EV purposes. if you want to go down the AC route have a look at an AC50 or 75 but best bang for buck go DC with a Warp9 or similar.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

AC Industrial motors CAN be great EV motors IF you know what you are doing. Before trying to do it, you need to bone up on it...Most people are not conversant with the knowledge required, so just dis them.

I would never use an AC industrial motor under 10 HP to convert for EV usage.

The 25HP model looks ok, but I can not see it thru the wrapper. They need to have aluminum housings to reduce the weight.

AND I advocate rewinding them to use a American made controller.

To do that you need to know the stator count as all are not suitable.

It can often be done for 1/2 the cost of a DC motor.

<More information on this subject can be found at the link under my name.>

miz


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## rex39 (Aug 18, 2012)

Thanks for the info there are some other motors with higher hp but all are 3 phase and 230 to 460 volt I'm going to wait and learn more befor I get a motor.I just thought I could get these for under $100 it could be a good deal but the auction is 3 hours away so I wont fool with it. Thanks


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## rex39 (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm going to show a couple more motors just so maybe I can educate myself .

*Brand*: Toshiba
*Item Description*: 40HP/1160RPM/Frame 364 T
*Model*: 0406XSSB41A-P
*Specifications*: 460v 3ph











*Brand*: SIEMENS
*Item Description*: 25hp / 1180 RPM / TYPE RGZESO / ELEC. MOTOR
*Model*: PE-21 PLUS
*Specifications*: 460v-3PH
*Additional Information*: New











*Brand*: US MOTORS
*Item Description*: 50HP /RPM 1775 / FRAME 326T Elec Motor
*Model*: R084A
*Specifications*: 230-460v 3ph
*Additional Information*: New










For a big truck maybe (LOL}
*Brand*: Siemens
*Item Description*: 60HP / 3545RPM / Frame 364TS / ELEC. MOTOR
*Model*: RGZP
*Specifications*: 230-460v 3ph
*Additional Information*: New


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

It's almost 2013, guys. It's time to remove the phrase "unless you are going lithium ion which are very expensive". The assumption these days should be that anyone who is serious about making a conversion will probably be using lithium.


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Several here, including myself, use industrial motors just like these in their converted vehicles. Absolutely doable. 

If you're thinking about converting a truck, get the biggest one you can get your hands on, within the limits of the vehicle. The industrial controllers that go with these motors are standard, and are also available surplus/used. 

If you're concerned about the battery voltage, use a boost converter to get more voltage from fewer batteries. There is already someone here converting a car doing just this. Since most industrial motors are dual voltage, you can also use the 200/230 volt winding. 

In the end, it's usually cheaper than buying a kit made for a conversion.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

rex39 said:


> *Brand*: SIEMENS
> *Item Description*: 10HP/ RPM 1165 / ELEC. MOTOR
> *Model*: 1LA0256-6FP21
> *Specifications*: 230-460v 3ph



This would be the most suitable. 7.5kW rated, probably a 132 frame (maximum 160). Would probably weight about 90-100kg.
Going by rule-of-thumb, would give you bursts upto about 75kW peak - and would easily give 20kW+ continuous with some forced air which should be enough to sustain highway speeds

Stiive


never mind: Just checked the model number, 265T frame. Too big and heavy for EV.
You can easily get 7.5kW 132 frame - this would be better


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A major consideration is the motor speed and torque. The 1165 RPM motors are 6 pole and have about 50% more torque than a 4 pole 1750 RPM motor of the same HP. You need to overclock the motor to get at least 3000 RPM to match the usual RPM of the ICE being replaced. It may be OK to use field weakening above nameplate RPM especially if the motor is a bit larger anyway, but you can get about 2x or even 3x the horsepower if you keep the V/F ratio and use 460 VAC on the 230 VAC winding at 120 Hz. The insulation will probably be OK up to 600 VAC, but for that you will need about 800 VDC, which is a lot of batteries. You probably don't need all that much HP at high speeds unless you want a race car. About 30 HP will keep a typical small car moving at 60 MPH on a 5% grade.

Also important is the efficiency rating of the motor. A super efficient motor will probably cost more and be heavier and/or larger, but may be worthwhile in the long run. Another consideration is inverter duty, which has insulation that will not degrade from the high frequency and high voltage fast transitions from VF drives. 

The enclosure is also important. TEFC is popular (Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled), but if the motor will be exposed to the elements a severe duty type might be better. A C-face motor may be easier to adapt to a clutch and transmission, so look for that feature. Finally, there are several designs which have different torque curves. Design B is general purpose, while design C (sometimes called crusher duty) has higher maximum torque.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> A major consideration is the motor speed and torque. The 1165 RPM motors are 6 pole and have about 50% more torque than a 4 pole 1750 RPM motor of the same HP.


... but are also about 50% heavier.

In the end, it reduces to the optimum pole count of 4 -- or maybe 6 for direct drive.

No more, as they would be very heavy for their power rating, and going into high enough frequencies would be impossible. 2-pole, on the other hand, would use both iron and copper inefficiently.

Other pole counts were important in the days before VFD's, but the car runs with VFD.

Note that it may be relatively easy to reconfigure a 4-pole motor for 1/2 the original voltage, or 6-pole motor for 1/3 the original voltage, just by changing internal connections. Choose a motor that can run at 230V in delta, and then apply this modification, and you should have a very good machine that gives the nameplate horsepower at 160V battery pack voltage. Disclaimer: not tested on a car, yet.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> AC Industrial motors CAN be great EV motors IF you know what you are doing. Before trying to do it, you need to bone up on it...*Most people are not conversant with the knowledge required, so just dis them.*


Well... someone's certainly feeling froggy, eh? 

You might want to classify yourself in the category "not conversant with the knowledge required" as a consequence of these little gems from that other forum you've been advertising in your sig lately:



> Enter the *Nicola Tesla invented AC induction motor* with  no commutators, brushes or the need to mechanically induce magnetism in the rotor.


The defining characteristic of the induction motor is that the field is induced into the rotor by the stator windings!!!



> A motor's HZ rating is just a function of it's pole count.


The "Hz rating" - by which I presume you mean the frequency the motor is designed to run at its so-called "base speed" - is inversely proportional to the thickness of its stator laminations (and grade of steel used) and directly proportional the ratio of wire radius to skin depth in the stator windings.



> I really do not know or can even guess at the actual RPMs of a 400HZ motor running with a 300Hz controller.


This is a pretty basic formula for specifying AC motors:

Synchronous RPM = (120 * Frequency) / Poles

In the induction motor the rotor always spins at a slightly lower speed than the above equation predicts and this difference is called "slip".

Actual RPM = Synchronous RPM * (1 - Slip%)

Where Slip% is typically in the range of 2-5%

For example, a 4 pole motor designed for 400Hz will spin at at a speed that is 2-5% less than 9000 RPM when driven with a 300Hz fundamental. 

If the AC voltage applied to the stator at 300Hz is the same as at 400Hz then the motor will be capable of delivering approximately 33% more torque at the lower frequency.



> <More information on this subject can be found at the link under my name.>


More *dis*information, maybe... Pardon the pun.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The above post is understandable as it is written by one of the "DC" Chorus line.


Have a wonderful Christmas and a Good Holiday.

Miz


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Industrial induction motors are a dime a dozen. The only thing they are missing is a viable controller... but that is about to change.

Dr. Scott is currently implementing FOC (field oriented control) on the Scott controllers and will be tuning the controller specifically for the Siemens induction motors now in every back alley. 

This should open the door to using many many other induction motors which are commonly available and quite inexpensive used or surplus. 

Also, a note on hp ratings. Don't believe the numbers on the plate. Often a motor is available in several different configurations. The totally enclosed version may be 10hp while the blower version is 50hp. The 1000rpm wiring configuration may be 10hp and the 3600rpm wiring 30hp (E1, E2, E3, E4). So you may be able to buy a closed motor rated at 1000rpm and 5hp, add a blower and change the wiring configuration and suddenly you are looking at a 3600rpm 50hp motor.

I am looking at a spec sheet right now and the exact same 175 lb motor is rated anywhere from 10hp to 73hp (continuous) depending on the rpm and enclosure. They all have the same peak torque. Rated hp is dependent on rpm and heat dissipation. They will also de-rate the same motor for lower voltage or up-rate it for higher voltage.

So it is a good idea when looking at a prospective motor to go to the manufacturer's website and see if you can obtain more info on the motor. Generally there is a pretty fixed power-to-weight ratio that is more or less similar from brand to brand and motor to motor. 

Cheers


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The defining characteristic of the induction motor is that the field is induced into the rotor by the stator windings!!!


In his defense, he did say MECHANICALLY induce. The magnetism in an induction motor is not induced mechanically, but rather through the transformer effect.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Hollie Maea said:


> In his defense, he did say MECHANICALLY induce. The magnetism in an induction motor is not induced mechanically, but rather through the transformer effect.


 By transformer effect I think you mean Faraday's Law: emf = - change in flux with time, which is the mechanism by which axial current is induced in the rotor conductors due to the rotating flux wave set up by the AC current in the stator windings. The "magnetism" or radial air gap magnetic flux is due to the current in the stator windings, similar to a DC motor, except rather than stationary as in a DC motor, it is a rotating flux wave, rotating at the synchronous speed, Ns, determined by the frequency of the applied voltage to the stator coils. The emf and frequency of the induced current in the rotor are determined by the difference in synchronous speed and rotor speed, N, as described by the slip, s = (Ns - N)/Ns, 0< s < 1. 

More on topic, rex39, you realize you will have to rewind, or at least clip and re-connect, the stator windings for lower voltage as described by stiive correct? You might peruse the thread started on this topic in June 2009 at: 
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=1237&title=changing-an-induction-motor-voltage


-stiive's homeland. Just above it there is another thread by stiive:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=3289&title=15kw-induction-motor-overclock


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