# Planning a Pontia Vibe conversion



## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

Is anyone out there using higher than 144V pack voltage? Most of the equipment I've seen available to the private consumer revolves around 144V as the highest voltage. It seems that higher voltages produce better performance and range. Am I off track here?


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## MrCrabs (Mar 7, 2008)

I think doing an EV with a range 30 miles for $7K would be easier than an EV with a range 100 miles for $25k.
If you shop around, and go for a modest 96 or 120 volt conversion, you could get the 30 mile range needed for most of your work commutes, and just use your ICE when you need more range.
Lithium batteries for an 80-100 mile range would probably take up your entire 25k budget.


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

Well, my range would be 100 miles, _ideally._ However, I can always shoot for a 50-60 mile range for now. Incidentally, I looked up the coefficient of drag for the Pontiac Vibe: .33. Not too shabby. I think I should be able to get 50+ miles out of a 2850 lb. car, yes?

I'm looking at either a 120V or a 144V version with a FB1-4001 ADC motor, double shaft (as long as there's clearance in the engine bay). Has anyone been using Valence batteries? I haven't received a reply from them advising if they sell to private consumers and with their price list. I found Everspring.net, a U.S. distributor of Thunder Sky...the contact I emailed said they offer a 360 day warranty on the batteries. Honestly, I'm very leery of going with Thunder Sky.


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## MrCrabs (Mar 7, 2008)

See http://www.evalbum.com/733
And his website http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/EV/1.htm

If you download the EV Parts list (its an excel sheet), you will see he paid ~1600 per Valance battery.
Getting 12 of them puts them around $19k

That mustang I linked to above weighs in around 3000 lbs, and goes 40 miles per charge, however it doesn't say what the DOD is.

Here are all the EV Album entries with Valance batteries.
http://www.evalbum.com/battb/VALN


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

MrCrabs said:


> That mustang I linked to above weighs in around 3000 lbs, and goes 40 miles per charge, however it doesn't say what the DOD is.


It seems one could get that kind of range on PbA. I checked the price he paid for the Valence batteries against a post on EVDL. It appears the Valence batteries have gone up about $600 per unit, if I'm reading the price list correctly. Plus he paid about $1900 in shipping...you can pay less than that to ship a car. 

I can't believe that, in 20+ years of hobbyist EV building, the same old PbA batteries are still the only moderately priced battery system. I find that fact very frustrating. Then comes along Thunder Sky, promising _somewhat_ affordable lithium batteries, but no real customer service or reliability.

It seems I either take my chances with Thunder Sky and order 20% more batteries than I need to cover the bad cells, or I just go with lead. But, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

Also, depending on which website figure I use, the base line Pontiac Vibe weighs in at 2700 from the factory.


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## MrCrabs (Mar 7, 2008)

Uncle Joseph said:


> I can't believe that, in 20+ years of hobbyist EV building, the same old PbA batteries are still the only moderately priced battery system. I find that fact very frustrating. Then comes along Thunder Sky, promising _somewhat_ affordable lithium batteries, but no real customer service or reliability.
> 
> It seems I either take my chances with Thunder Sky and order 20% more batteries than I need to cover the bad cells, or I just go with lead. But, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.


From my research and reading things about ThunderSky it seems like people either get good cells, or they are totally bum and worthless....
On the EVDL in the not so distant past, ThunderSky batteries came up. One fellow (in Europe somewhere..) was going to have a Chinese partner of his test the TS cells before shipping them out. If he gets that setup, it would make it easier for hobbyist to buy them, and only have to order 5-10% extra in case a cell dies in a year or so.

I actually thaught about using C or D cells of the Energizer NiMH batteries.....until I realized I would need at least 6k of em to get any kind of range and power.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with thundersky's for my motorcycle conversion. They have had a bad rap in the past but I haven only heard good things about the LFP cells other than they only have a 5C discharge limit not the 10C they claim. There is also some issues with Patent infringement (I don't know any details). Apparently in the worlds worst ever PR move thundersky sent an entire shipment of cells that failed their quality control to a big US group buy and then didn't honour any waranties. I'll be buying through an Australian dealer so I think I should be ok. I might order a few extra cells just in case but I'm hoping they have learnt from their mistakes.


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

This is the email I received from Everspring.net (A ThunderSky dealer):



> You know all those stories are part fact and part fiction. Like all products, there will be issues. It's how we handle the problems which makes a product successful or not...it's not if the product is 100% problem free - there is no such things.
> For the Thunder Sky batteries, we offer a limited 360days warranty on them. So if there are any problems within the 360days, we will replace the defective batteries.
> 
> As a reference, we are using these batteries for all the coaches in the Bejing Olympics...all 200 of them.
> ...


I believe they ship directly from China, and Everspring is based in Hong Kong. I'm not sure if they have a U.S. office, although they do have a U.S. sales division. Since you're buying in Australia, are you also going with the Everspring dealer there?


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

I'm having trouble deciding on my voltage and motor for the Pontiac Vibe. I've decided that this is the car I want to convert. Curb weight is going to be around 2700lbs. I still want to keep the range at or around 50-60 miles, and the Vibe has a CoD of .33.

I have decided to utilize a DC motor system driving an accessory with a DC/DC converter for the accessory battery and motor (for power steering, A/C, etc). I'm absolutely certain I can use a 144V platform, but I don't know if this is necessary, or if something smaller would be adequate. I do need the vehicle to be able to drive at highways speeds....55mph at a minimum, with 60-65mph as the ideal.

Realistically, I'm probably going to do lead batteries now, and maybe upgrade to Li-Ion when I need a new pack. However, depending on when I'm ready to install the batteries, I may go lithium right away. I'm thinking of the FB1-4001 motor with a single shaft, since it looks like a double shaft will be too big/difficult to mount in the engine bay. I'll have to run a separate accessory motor.

I think once I've got the voltage and motor selection finalized, everything else will fall into place.


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