# Second failure...



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Well that just sucks man. Just really, really sucks. 

Out of curiousity, how are you wiring the 12 volts to the controller? I know it's not too relevant, but I spent a good two days cursing at my autotranny for not working, and it came down to a stupid little fuse that I forgot to replace when I tore the car apart in July. It was labled "Fuel Pump" and it also did the damn PCM. And because of that I taught my 2 year old neighbor a whole lot of four letter words.......

I am really want to know what EV USA is going to do about it. I bought my Kelly from them so I could work through them if there are warranty issues, but I have not experienced any problems yet.

I just have to add that there must be some sort of relation between the recent Kelly failures and the Logisystem failures. Maybe they use a few similar parts because they both seem have be having failures in the same time frame, and that is very disconcerning.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Well that just sucks man. Just really, really sucks.
> 
> Out of curiousity, how are you wiring the 12 volts to the controller? I know it's not too relevant, but I spent a good two days cursing at my autotranny for not working, and it came down to a stupid little fuse that I forgot to replace when I tore the car apart in July. It was labled "Fuel Pump" and it also did the damn PCM. And because of that I taught my 2 year old neighbor a whole lot of four letter words.......
> 
> ...


Used the config in the photo (which came from the Kelly site and is the same config in the booklet sent with the controller, I wrote the notes to take to the bench with me to MAKE SURE I had a double check).

I would just write EVUSA and explain what happened, they do guarantee their sales, you have to have an RMA number for returns so you could call (but the phone was 'disconnected' today... ran into that a while back with them... seems it is some phone glitch so write 'em for sure!!!)

Well look at it this way, the child probably has heard worse on the tube!...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

My Kelly does work fine so far, so I am happy about that.

Did you check to make sure the 12 volts was acutally getting to the controller? I know it's stupid, but if some wire kicked the bucket or whatever. 

I find it funny how he's blaming "Your 12 volt system". Your 12 volt system still works, it theirs that doesn't.

Anyways, I have been working on a theory why so many controllers have been crapping out recently. And it's a damn good one. So good I am going to start another thread on it.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> My Kelly does work fine so far, so I am happy about that.
> 
> Did you check to make sure the 12 volts was acutally getting to the controller? I know it's stupid, but if some wire kicked the bucket or whatever.
> 
> ...


Well, I did circuit test them prior to full installation. However I am going to pull the unit in the morn and go back over it... because I just cannot believe that the controller would just up and kick it that quick! The first thing I checked was connections... however it could be in the aviation plug too... the contacts for soldering are really flimsy, so I will go over that too. Something could have shaken loose or just snapped... who knows? So dissection in the morning! I think I have some photos in the box here and I will post them of the system arrangement.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I wonder if the catastrophic failures these things are experiencing are related to the required external power supply? When using this type configuration if the controller is somehow grounded to the chassis as the 12V system is, it could create a ground fault somewhere possibly damaging the electronics.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

I use 24 volts to my Kelly and I tap that off my main pack. I put + to the PWR and the - to the B- as stated in the setup instructions. My contactor driver is not working but everything else is. However I did have one problem but I think I may have it resolved but it was not Kelly related. I do not have my Controller grounded to the body. Works just fine. There could still be some driver issues in your Kelly but they are decent controllers. I do not think your 12 volt is wrong. What is your power supply to your controller? Are you using a DC to DC to power your controller or just tapping off your main pack. Both ways are fine but are you sure you don't need 24 volts to power your controller? 

Hook up the minimal amount of systems to get the motor running. Try one thing at a time if you must. But check all your systems. I'd almost bet you have one stupid connection wrong or half wrong. 

I will be upgrading my SepEx controller and I will be purchasing a new Kelly for my series motor.

Pete : )


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Oooooh mate that sucks. I really feel bad for you. I'm not hearing a lot of good news about the Kelly controller so far. 
I hope you can get your hands on a decent yank made Curtis. They're bloody brilliant. Good luck mate.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I wonder if the catastrophic failures these things are experiencing are related to the required external power supply? When using this type configuration if the controller is somehow grounded to the chassis as the 12V system is, it could create a ground fault somewhere possibly damaging the electronics.


Well supposedly the 14500B is internally isolated, and as long as you don't have it grounded to the frame, you are protected. I made sure the ground was only to the sheetmetal box. This same grounding procedure worked with the first 14500(A). With that one thanks to some articles and posts I had read here in DIY-EC forums and elsewhere I prepared and made sure I had the controller body isolated from any metal other than a home-made heat sink and I used fairly high temp plastics to keep it in the PVC box I used for the insulation... It worked 'peachy' until I over did the pack... Ya know I took it for granted that a controller rated for 72-144VDC would TAKE 144VDC... silly me!


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I use 24 volts to my Kelly and I tap that off my main pack. I put + to the PWR and the - to the B- as stated in the setup instructions. My contactor driver is not working but everything else is. However I did have one problem but I think I may have it resolved but it was not Kelly related. I do not have my Controller grounded to the body. Works just fine. There could still be some driver issues in your Kelly but they are decent controllers. I do not think your 12 volt is wrong. What is your power supply to your controller? Are you using a DC to DC to power your controller or just tapping off your main pack. Both ways are fine but are you sure you don't need 24 volts to power your controller?
> 
> Hook up the minimal amount of systems to get the motor running. Try one thing at a time if you must. But check all your systems. I'd almost bet you have one stupid connection wrong or half wrong.
> 
> ...


I am using an Albright contactor, that has a 12VDC coil, the Kelly uses 12VDC for power on pin 1, pin 2 is the 12VDC gnd. I then ran a wire (using the wiring harness I got from Kelly) from my controller 12V+ (pin 1) to the contactor coil to power it... the gnds are properly grounded. I bench tested the config using a 12VDC deep cycle battery, the voltage worked to close the contactor (which it still does on the car), and the controller was able to be programmed complete with lights working properly. It even gave me the low voltage code 1-3 when I hooked to a low juice battery. I was running green light on the good battery all during the programming (which is accomplished by downloading software from Kelly with the upgraded v2.7 controller software. However I was not given the green on the system in the car... I am this morning, going to first charge the system battery to max., try it then again. If that fails, I will then disengage the aviation plug at J2, and check all the solder connections on the pins. If that checks out it is on to the wiring harness (the controller harness not the vehicle harness! aaauuuughh!) and check all connections and wires for breaks or shorts (nicks or cuts). From there it is a matter of wiring the contactor from the power wire (switched on the dash) directly, so the controller is wired for power without the pig-tail to the contactor. IF that fails I will again REMOVE the controller and bench test it. which for all accounts is about all I can do short of gutting the SOB and contact testing every component and connection in it... And if it is as I suspect dead. Yo~ Curtis man!!! 
P.S.
By the way I get this note from my favorite Kelly person:"So you think Curtis is made in America?" 
I have stopped replying to the notes, it is moot at this point.
Well since I have been investigating the company for some months now, I KNOW that Curtis is international, however they make controllers in Livermore, California... check this link out: "http://curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Company.dspManufacturing" so whether the parts are chinese or whatever at least I know people who are concerned with the end product are assembling them... ya know. When you are willing to put your name on a product, YOUR REAL NAME, then you make it with some pride and a closer eye to detail.
Kelly comes from China, and NO ONE NAMED 'KELLY' owns the company... that I have been able to find.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

KiwiEV said:


> Oooooh mate that sucks. I really feel bad for you. I'm not hearing a lot of good news about the Kelly controller so far.
> I hope you can get your hands on a decent yank made Curtis. They're bloody brilliant. Good luck mate.


AY YA! Kiwi, 
Did you by chance have a vid on YouTube with a drive you did... I saw a vid a bit back with a fellow from New Zealand doing a shifting demo and was just wondering?


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

You know, I was thinking that it could be that the program is not configured correctly in one or more places. Check that too. 

Be absolutely sure you are not grounding out your controller. I don't think that is your problem. I had a contact driver out and just bypassed it. Worked perfect. Gave me fits until I bypassed it. I thought mine was dead too. 

It makes no difference if a company is named by the owner. Many are not. Many have just off the cuff names anyway. I doubt Curtis is made anywhere else except here in the US but I'd bet my bottom dollar that all the components are from China. Where it's built has nothing to do with the quality. I am sure Kelly is trying to make a decent product and make the customer happy. Yes, there will always be those products that are always breaking while the others are not. It happens here too. So don't blame them. If their product was as bad as you make it sound then they would have already been out of business. I like the product they offer. I see that Curtis has many failures too. Well I kinda see that in many controllers. I can't say Alltrax has had that kind of problem but then again they produce low power controllers for golf carts. Enough of this little rant. 

On with trying to trouble shoot your issues. I'd love to see your controller work and for you to figure out the little glitch. I know it's a glitch because you have no burn smell and you had no MAGIC SMOKE and it did run for a few seconds. That leads me to think program settings. Seems like you have all your connections proper. Like I did mention earlier just connect the minimum to make it work. Like a bench test. Just bench test it in your vehicle. No need to remove it. 

Play nice and take screen clips of the different windows parameters for each section of the program and send those clips to Kelly and see if they can figure something out program wise. These guys really are very helpful. I have had nothing but good responses and they do trouble shoot OK. Granted that their english is not so hot but they do try. It is up to us to help too. 

My brain is working over time figuring this one out. Need more input. Something is missing and making it impossible to properly trouble shoot. I do this sort of thing with folks and their cars too. Over the internet is real hard so what I do is dig all the info I can and always some critical thing is left out because someone did something stupid and does not want to admit the mistake. After I squeeze that out I usually find the problem. Many times that is not the case but they leave something out because they think it is not an issue when in fact it is. 

Do a brain dump and some photos and we may be able to get this resolved. I am willing to help. That will make it easier. The more the better. 







fugdabug said:


> I am using an Albright contactor, that has a 12VDC coil, the Kelly uses 12VDC for power on pin 1, pin 2 is the 12VDC gnd. I then ran a wire (using the wiring harness I got from Kelly) from my controller 12V+ (pin 1) to the contactor coil to power it... the gnds are properly grounded. I bench tested the config using a 12VDC deep cycle battery, the voltage worked to close the contactor (which it still does on the car), and the controller was able to be programmed complete with lights working properly. It even gave me the low voltage code 1-3 when I hooked to a low juice battery. I was running green light on the good battery all during the programming (which is accomplished by downloading software from Kelly with the upgraded v2.7 controller software. However I was not given the green on the system in the car... I am this morning, going to first charge the system battery to max., try it then again. If that fails, I will then disengage the aviation plug at J2, and check all the solder connections on the pins. If that checks out it is on to the wiring harness (the controller harness not the vehicle harness! aaauuuughh!) and check all connections and wires for breaks or shorts (nicks or cuts). From there it is a matter of wiring the contactor from the power wire (switched on the dash) directly, so the controller is wired for power without the pig-tail to the contactor. IF that fails I will again REMOVE the controller and bench test it. which for all accounts is about all I can do short of gutting the SOB and contact testing every component and connection in it... And if it is as I suspect dead. Yo~ Curtis man!!!
> P.S.
> By the way I get this note from my favorite Kelly person:"So you think Curtis is made in America?"
> I have stopped replying to the notes, it is moot at this point.
> ...


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

a photo of the config in situ.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

the assembly prior to installation, with a 1/4" diamond plate aluminum 'heatsink' (diamond pattern down).


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

connector: as you can see I tagged EVERYTHING... just to make it easier to trace.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

This might be a closer, bigger shot of the config.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

This is the switch which I use to turn on the power to the controller and the coil and vacuum, located on the dash. It is wired off the power post of the battery and goes to ground from the assembly.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Not all the photos are of the situation in a completed state as you can tell by wire wraps laying about on the footboard etc.. Well now it is a matter of doing my 'run-through' on the checklist, more later.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

Since the components are 12 volt actuated are you using your Aux battery or pack battery? If Aux, is it charged up? You may want to use a DC to DC converter from your main pack. I am hooking mine up now. I have to build a voltage doubler for my coil as my coil is 24/28 volts and my DC to DC is 12 volt output. 



PS. That thin diamond plate will not be thick enough to draw heat away quickly enough to keep it cool. You need at least triple that thickness and you should have a heat sink with fins with a small 12 volt fan blowing across it. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/HEATSINK-ALUMINUM-EXTRUSION-LARGE-BIG_W0QQitemZ170275388338QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170275388338&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14






fugdabug said:


> This is the switch which I use to turn on the power to the controller and the coil and vacuum, located on the dash. It is wired off the power post of the battery and goes to ground from the assembly.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

Here is how mine is wired. Click the link below. Mine is the modified SepEx controller. My motor is wired in reverse polarity. I am not sure if yours needs to be that way so you may want to confirm that with Steven. 

Pete : )


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Here is how mine is wired. Click the link below. Mine is the modified SepEx controller. My motor is wired in reverse polarity. I am not sure if yours needs to be that way so you may want to confirm that with Steven.
> 
> Pete : )


The motor is not the problem. The controller is. I have it wired correctly, and I am about to take my computer out to the garage and check the unit... and 'Yes', I do not have the traction pack turned 'on' during the test, only the 12V system battery is 'on'. I am not familiar with the SepEx, but thanks for the note... as for Steven... I have NO desire to converse with him at this time.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Since the components are 12 volt actuated are you using your Aux battery or pack battery? If Aux, is it charged up? You may want to use a DC to DC converter from your main pack. I am hooking mine up now. I have to build a voltage doubler for my coil as my coil is 24/28 volts and my DC to DC is 12 volt output.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is contact with the shroud and should dissipate the heat with that much of a heatsink. A twelve volt fan will do nothing if the heat sink doesn't ... the box that it sits in is wide open for ventilation at this time. Well out to the garage with the computer... I did all the checks (battery level, wiring contacts... removed the interface plug and did direct wiring to the bus... even wired the contactor separately...) so now it is time to make sure that the box is programmable... if not then I know for sure it is a dead box... I tried all I know to do for tests, saved the 'hauling of the computer and monitor' for last... upward and onward!


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2008)

Just picked me up a big fat piece of aluminum for a heat sink. It is 12" X 6" X 1 1/2". I will be using this for my experiment for a water cooled heat sink. For now it will do because of the mass of the sink. 

Good luck on checking the program. I do hope you don't have a dead controller but if it is I do hope you get a replacement or refund. I've had nothing but top notch customer service. I'd can't see why they would not honor a warranty because they are trying to get into the EV market. I think they can do it and do it well. 

Pete : )


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Just picked me up a big fat piece of aluminum for a heat sink. It is 12" X 6" X 1 1/2". I will be using this for my experiment for a water cooled heat sink. For now it will do because of the mass of the sink.
> 
> Good luck on checking the program. I do hope you don't have a dead controller but if it is I do hope you get a replacement or refund. I've had nothing but top notch customer service. I'd can't see why they would not honor a warranty because they are trying to get into the EV market. I think they can do it and do it well.
> 
> Pete : )


I didn't buy it directly from Kelly, I bought it through a dealer Electric Vehicles USA... This is a warranty replacement for a controller that fried like a crispy critter... 
But I am not worried about Kelly or any of that right at this time... The tests indicate something is amiss... I have narrowed it down to either the microswitch on the Potentiometer throttle or something in the controller not allowing it to send power to the motor. Power is circulating through the controller, I have well over 112 or so volts on the meter,.. it is not getting to the motor. So I am going to do deeper surgery tomorrow. If I can't get it then, I will have to wait until Spring or a nice day this Winter, my business has suffered a bit more than I wanted it to due to all this. And my customers are more important at this time so... I hope I can nail it down tomorrow. Happy Holloween!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I never thought of the microswitch in the POT box. I have a PB5 without the switch. I just reprogrammed my Kelly and found it was limiting the current right off the get-go because it starts 110% of the value you set it too. I had it set to 56 volts on a 60 volt pack, and 110% of that is 61.6v and my pack was 62+- when sitting. 

I'd say check your microswitch and your actual POT with a OHM meter. If your High Pedal Disable is on and the POT broke, it might prevent the controller from functioning. Ditto with the microswtich.

Now back to consuming rediculous amounts of candy.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> I never thought of the microswitch in the POT box. I have a PB5 without the switch. I just reprogrammed my Kelly and found it was limiting the current right off the get-go because it starts 110% of the value you set it too. I had it set to 56 volts on a 60 volt pack, and 110% of that is 61.6v and my pack was 62+- when sitting.
> 
> I'd say check your microswitch and your actual POT with a OHM meter. If your High Pedal Disable is on and the POT broke, it might prevent the controller from functioning. Ditto with the microswtich.
> 
> Now back to consuming rediculous amounts of candy.


Yep that is what I am going to do this morning. I bought (2) PB5's when I did my ordering because I also bought a smaller motor, controller (AXE) etc., for an emergency electrical generation unit I am in the middle of building now.., so I do have a back-up should that prove to be the case with the microswitch. Man, am I glad I got into this forum... there is always someone cookin' with ideas or a suggestion...
(My thing is 'nutter-butters, or pecan sandies or graham crackers...) We are soooo remote we don't see many ghosts or goblins at the door... actually none for some years. hmmm must be the cauldron in the yard...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Any verdict yet?

We actually got over 100+ trick 'r treaters this year, which is a lot more than usually. 

It's a great day outside so now I have to go back to reinstalling the motor on my EV...


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I doubt Curtis is made anywhere else except here in the US but I'd bet my bottom dollar that all the components are from China. Where it's built has nothing to do with the quality.


I disagree.

Where the controller is built has nothing to do with the individual components quality, because the components are not built where the controller is built.

However, where (or rather by what entity, and how much diligence they had) the controller is designed and assembled has everything to do with the controller quality.

If a controller is designed (poorly) by americans in america, the controller will be poor quality even if assembled with african components.

This is why the Zilla was so expensive. First of all, Ot was very diligent in his design engineering. Second, they match the IGBTs used perfectly. Third, it is assembled to rigorous standards by technicians who care about what they're building and can see the big picture of building a quality product -> makes customers happy -> inspires other customers to buy -> increases production -> brings more money to the company -> increases their paycheck -> inspires them to continue building quality products, and the process loops.

The other reason why the Zilla is so expensive is due to supply/demand. Because Cafe Electric was created to produce QUALITY controllers, Ot was not going to sacrifice quality by speeding up the build process or cutting corners. Because of that supply was low, because it was a quality product, demand was high, and the price reflects all of that.

It really does all boil down to "you get what you pay for"... and when you buy a Curtis, you get all of Curtis' years of experience designing, building, repairing, and CUSTOMER SERVICING... As far as I've seen, Kelly doesn't really have any experience in those areas... at least not in providing a solid product.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Where the controller is built has nothing to do with the individual components quality, because the components are not built where the controller is built.
> 
> ...


you expressed what I was trying to say all along... I don't care if the parts came from Timbuktu... it is HOW they are put together and the care given to the design. But let the person rant. Because you know who I am?.. I am the person who is NEVER going to buy a Kelly controller again!.. and that is the totality of that. 
Let others sing its praises... don't mean beans to someone sitting with a doorstop for a controller. Just means my original money went for naught and now I go to a Curtis 1231... 
P.S. Am planning an autopsy sometime in the very near future on the 14500B, photos and maybe a vid... I want to make sure that what I uncover is documented for posterity's sake.
I won't be around for a bit, have customers of my own to tend to and projects that a local hospital is waiting for.
Later gang.


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## gasless (Jul 10, 2008)

*How are people going to get into electric cars if there not dependable. Seems to me that most of the problems are in the controllers. I think most of the production motors work well and are reliable. My controller gave out after 125 miles, I just dont consider that dependable. Does anyone have a electric conversion that has driven 10,000 miles with out a falure? If so, I think it would be nice to let the rest of us know what you are using for parts. And give your vender's a that a boy...Thanks* *Ed** *


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2008)

The problem I have seen so far with controllers is that most are under powered for our needs. Zilla has been good because it is a massive powerful controller. Able to handle our needs. A golf cart controller for an on freeway EV is just asking for trouble. Even with a Kelly for a Golf cart for an on Freeway EV. You are just asking for trouble. I also see many with tiny or no heat sinks for their controllers and that will increase the chance of disaster. Go get a big controller for your medium motor. You will have an ev with good life.

That is fine that you don't want a Kelly. Many don't want Curtis either. Same reasons. Cheap and noisy. Made for Golf carts. My controller is a golf cart controller and was never intended for freeway use. I must have a massive heat sink to pull the generated heat away. MUST. 

: )




Pete


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## gasless (Jul 10, 2008)

Mine is made for the road. Logisystems has a built in heat sink on top with 2- 4 inch fans on top of it. From what I see I should have gone with a Curtis 2031... Ed


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gasless said:


> Mine is made for the road. Logisystems has a built in heat sink on top with 2- 4 inch fans on top of it. From what I see I should have gone with a Curtis 2031... Ed


You should do a thread on the LogiSystems... would like to see how many folks have tried them. They look like they are not on the web as a company though(???) haven't been able to find them... they were there about a month ago I thought... hmmmmm, That may have been a product that looked like it was of Russian origin... I was going to do a search today for that controller and it was to no avail, however lost a hydraulic hose on my wood splitter this late aft. and looks like it is a town trip in the morn for a hose! I am looking pretty hard at a Curtis 1231C... and I don't care what those who try to shove down others who think Kelly is a bad item say... They aren't the ones with the doorstop 14500B. And I wouldn't trust a Kelly again if they gave it away FREE... NO way no thanks. (But I will try to get an autopsy for you all as soon as possible... supposed to snow big time up here by Thursday... and I have a lot to do before hand.. so... later. Night ya'll.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2008)

I think what you need to do is to send it back for an upgrade instead of bashing because you got a bad cookie. Just like saying Toyota is total crap because of one car that was a lemon. Hell, most manufactures have lemons. It is the nature of manufacturing products. Not every one can be properly tested before it goes out to you. Same with all automobiles and carburetors and computers and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on. Get the picture. Kelly will honor warranties but if you violated that and took apart their product then you deserve a door stop and that would not be the fault of a Kelly product. Mmmmm. How many failures has Curtis had? But you still think they have a viable product. According to your logic no product is trustworthy. Not a single one. 

Pete : )

But no one is trying to make you like Kelly but we are trying to keep you from hurting a business. Unless you went through the proper channels to resolve your issues with Kelly you have no right to bitch. I kind of think you just got hot under the collar and did nothing because it may have been after all operator error. But I still think Kelly will stand by that warranty and their product. More than I can say for some companies. Did you ask? What company would deliberately sell total crap if they really wanted to get into the market. From what these guys are doing I'd say they want the share of the market and they happen to be actually doing something about it. Ferreting out some issues is a normal thing in a growing business. You just happened to maybe get an actual defective item. I've had plenty of defective items in my life and have always had my warranties honored. Some times even getting my money back. Did you really ask?

If not you should. It's between you and them. If I have a problem I always go to the horse. Not the mouse in the hay. 



fugdabug said:


> You should do a thread on the LogiSystems... would like to see how many folks have tried them. They look like they are not on the web as a company though(???) haven't been able to find them... they were there about a month ago I thought... hmmmmm, That may have been a product that looked like it was of Russian origin... I was going to do a search today for that controller and it was to no avail, however lost a hydraulic hose on my wood splitter this late aft. and looks like it is a town trip in the morn for a hose! I am looking pretty hard at a Curtis 1231C... and I don't care what those who try to shove down others who think Kelly is a bad item say... They aren't the ones with the doorstop 14500B. And I wouldn't trust a Kelly again if they gave it away FREE... NO way no thanks. (But I will try to get an autopsy for you all as soon as possible... supposed to snow big time up here by Thursday... and I have a lot to do before hand.. so... later. Night ya'll.


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Sorry, repeat post


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Fugdabug,

I had a similar Kelly controller failure. In fact it was pretty much identical. When I saw your threads I read them carefully to see if I could glean any info that might help me avoid it in the future. In your Near Disaster thread you wrote the following:

[I have my contactor power wired to a pig-tail off the positive post of the system battery (12V). With a pull-apart connector, I also have a heavy disconnect for the IGN switch/stock system... THEN I have my Panic button between the front seats (a 160VDC 250Amp breaker- attached photo) which kills the high voltage system. And of course the ign. switch which only locks the steering and cuts stock system power (lights, etc.). I simply hooked up my 12V plug-in (which powered the contactor, fuse box and controller...) then initiated the system breaker, and got in the car turned on ignition, and put 'panic button to on... (with the new 144VDC battery bank installed and fused). The car started out I when from 1st to 2nd gear as it was lurching in first (I have a clutch and believe that a clutch IS necessary...) made it about 50' around the loop in the yard and smoke started appearing and the motor went 'runaway']

If I am reading this correctly, you energized the control voltage to your contactor, opening a high voltage path to your controller, THEN turned on your breaker and your panic button, sending full voltage across the contactor to the controller without giving the caps in the controller even a millisecond to utilize the controlled current that is supplied through the precharge resistor. The resistor is there to do just what is says, pre charge the caps in the controller. It takes as much as 20 to 30 seconds to accomplish this and the controller has to have it. The controller will take that high voltage beating a few times, sometimes several times, before blowing flames into your motor compartment, but it absolutely will eventually fail.

I am not an expert, but since I fried my Kelly controller in EXACTLY the same way, I have been doing my homework. I don't want to do it again.

I reccomend STRONGLY that you make sure the entire high voltage circuit is energized well before sending control voltage to the contactor. Give the controller the time it needs to precharge.

I would also reccomend connecting your contactor to your key switch so you are behind the wheel and in control when full voltage arrives at your controller.

Regards and good luck
Michael


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2008)

Michael,

Did Kelly honor your warranty? 

Pete : )






ZenDaddy said:


> Fugdabug,
> 
> I had a similar Kelly controller failure. In fact it was pretty much identical. When I saw your threads I read them carefully to see if I could glean any info that might help me avoid it in the future. In your Near Disaster thread you wrote the following:
> 
> ...


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Pete,

They did even though it was my fault. 

As I understand it, they are working to make their controllers impervious to "no precharge" issues.

Fugdabug,

I was just looking at your pics above in the thread, where is your precharge resistor? I must be missing it.

Michael


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I think what you need to do is to send it back for an upgrade instead of bashing because you got a bad cookie. Just like saying Toyota is total crap because of one car that was a lemon. Hell, most manufactures have lemons. It is the nature of manufacturing products. Not every one can be properly tested before it goes out to you.


Wow... just, wow. Sorry, but I totally disagree with you here and I suspect I'm not the only one!

First: your analogy comparing Toyota cars with Kelly controllers is about as misleading as it gets. Toyota has been making reliable cars for decades which has _earned_ it an excellent reputation. Kelly has neither been in business for anywhere close to as long nor, given the reports from people here and elsewhere, have their products proven to be of Toyota-like quality. Sorry, but this analogy is totally bogus.

Second: I am also totally floored that you think it is perfectly acceptable that not every product made "can be properly tested before it [gets shipped]"?!?! _Why not?_ I mean, I can understand a manufacturer not testing, say, a screwdriver or a dog's plush toy - the former has little to break on it and the latter is destined for destruction anyway - but a motor controller for an electric vehicle???? _Are you serious?_ Every motor controller should not only be tested, it should be burned-in for 24-48 hours to weed out the inevitable "infant mortality" failure. Hell, even cheap electric consumer appliances like coffee makers and toasters get tested before being boxed up, and if something that costs $20 and is sold by the millions at Wal-Mart can be tested, a $1000+ motor controller sold in the dozens certainly can! 

Besides that, if I spent hours wiring up my EV only to find out the controller was defective right out of the box, man would I be pissed! All that time and effort wasted because the manufacturer didn't test/burn-in their products before selling them? Them honoring their warranty is the _very least I would expect from them!_ And even then I'd still be pissed - after all, no warranty covers my time (or towing charges, risk to life and property, etc...)

So, while offering a good warranty (and honoring it) is certainly nice, you know what's even better? _Not having to honor a warranty in the first place!_ It's overall more profitable for the manufacturer and leads to much happier customers (who then sing your praises _with good reason_ on forums like this, generating more sales, etc...).


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I think what you need to do is to send it back for an upgrade instead of bashing because you got a bad cookie. Just like saying Toyota is total crap because of one car that was a lemon. Hell, most manufactures have lemons. It is the nature of manufacturing products. Not every one can be properly tested before it goes out to you. Same with all automobiles and carburetors and computers and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on. Get the picture. Kelly will honor warranties but if you violated that and took apart their product then you deserve a door stop and that would not be the fault of a Kelly product. Mmmmm. How many failures has Curtis had? But you still think they have a viable product. According to your logic no product is trustworthy. Not a single one.
> 
> Pete : )
> 
> ...


Firstly, you can't hurt a business,.. only the business can HURT ITSELF. Next if you had been reading this forum or these threads for any time all the way through, the way I did because I have a couple of these threads that I initiated, you would know... I DIDN"T BUY THE CONTROLLER DIRECTLY FROM KELLY and this is the second controller, sent to me under warranty from the folks I bought it from. 
Just so we are clear, you obviously have NOT read and understood what is happening here. This is personal only in the sense that when a person expresses a desire to seek out another product due to the failure (not once but TWICE) of a specific product, all of a sudden there is an avalance of wannabes jumping into the fray, and confusing the matter. 
DO YOU(?) own a Kelly controller? Did it fail or malfunction, DID YOU TRY TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK?... I would like to see you get your money back from Kelly... directly. Go ahead, TRY. See what kind of response you get...
If you will read through all the threads on this section of the forum regarding Kelly controllers (in the Technical Discussion: Controllers) and read the questions, complaints and experiences of customers... and then consider your reply it would be greatly appreciated. Because though you try to sound reasonable and level-headed you don't know what the nuances are, of the conversation you are talking into... I think that would clear up your misconception of where this FORMER Kelly customer is coming from.
Respectfully submitted,
fugdabug


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> The [precharge] resistor is there to do just what is says, pre charge the caps in the controller. It takes as much as 20 to 30 seconds to accomplish this...


How big is your precharge resistor? Typical values are between 500 and 1000 Ohms. It should only take a few seconds (2 or 3) to sufficiently charge the caps.

I use a step-start circuit (a Pic controller some opto-isolators and a few relays). When you turn the ignition key to the START (momentary) position it closes a precharge relay, placing a resistor across the main contactor. Two-and-a-half seconds later the step-start begins checking the vacuum pump status. If the pump has stopped (that is, the reservoir is "full" of vacuum) THEN the main contactor closes.


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Just so we are clear, you obviously have NOT read and understood what is happening here. This is personal only in the sense that when a person expresses a desire to seek out another product due to the failure (not once but TWICE) of a specific product, all of a sudden there is an avalance of wannabes jumping into the fray, and confusing the matter.


Wannabes eh? I assume I'm one of them. Ok, thats fine. I deffinately "wannabe" a guy with a reliable, safe ev.

I believe that the purpose of this forum is to share information and help each other to get our respective vehicles on the road safely and reliably. 

I believe that you fried your own controller. After such an energetic strung out rant with the manufacturer as your target, that would be a tough pill to swallow. Grab a beer and wash it down. Then go fix your car. Good luck with that.

I also believe that the after the mistake that you and I BOTH made, sharing the information in the hope of helping someone else avoid the same mistake would be the appropriate thing to do. In that spirit, I am going to present this information in another string. Don't worry, I won't mention your name. I'm sure that if I'm way off base, an educated member will point it out in a respectful fashion.

Keep your fire extinguisher handy

Michael


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> How big is your precharge resistor? Typical values are between 500 and 1000 Ohms. It should only take a few seconds (2 or 3) to sufficiently charge the caps.
> 
> I use a step-start circuit (a Pic controller some opto-isolators and a few relays). When you turn the ignition key to the START (momentary) position it closes a precharge relay, placing a resistor across the main contactor. Two-and-a-half seconds later the step-start begins checking the vacuum pump status. If the pump has stopped (that is, the reservoir is "full" of vacuum) THEN the main contactor closes.


20 - 30 seconds is what was explained to me by a friend who is a tech in a golf cart repair shop. Maybe he was just making sure I gave it enough time.

My resistor is 300 ohms. It was sent with the controller so I assumed it was apropriate. Do I need a larger one? Do you have a diagram of the step-start circuit? I would love to have just that.

Michael


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> 20 - 30 seconds is what was explained to me by a friend who is a tech in a golf cart repair shop. Maybe he was just making sure I gave it enough time.


I was told by two different manufacturers (One who's name starts with 'L' and another with 'C') that two seconds was sufficient. 



ZenDaddy said:


> My resistor is 300 ohms. It was sent with the controller so I assumed it was apropriate. Do I need a larger one?


You should use the value recommended by the manufacturer. What controller do you use?



ZenDaddy said:


> Do you have a diagram of the step-start circuit? I would love to have just that.


I am presently doing the final testing and evaluation of the circuit. My circuit boards are supposed to be here tomorrow. I will release the design and offer assembled units and (possibly) kits for the DIY'er soon.


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> I am presently doing the final testing and evaluation of the circuit. My circuit boards are supposed to be here tomorrow. I will release the design and offer assembled units and (possibly) kits for the DIY'er soon.


A sub assembly like that could save a lot of grief and controllers!

I am using Kelly :KDH12600B,120V,600A series/PM

Let me know when it's ready and you will have your first customer. 
(as long as I can afford it!)

Michael


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> Wannabes eh? I assume I'm one of them. Ok, thats fine. I deffinately "wannabe" a guy with a reliable, safe ev.
> 
> I believe that the purpose of this forum is to share information and help each other to get our respective vehicles on the road safely and reliably.
> 
> ...


NO... don't take things out of context... I am referring to those that are fighting so strongly against the possibility and very likely the PROBABILITY that the problem is with the controller and not 'me' the end-user. The conversation has been twisted to reflect this thread as only a 'lets bring down Kelly Controllers' thread... IT IS NOT. It is a complaint and a record of my various attempts to get the darn thing working. I may get frustrated with all the 'let's pile on the guy who says 'Steven' is not right about everything!'... So if you are offended, just read the entirety of the thread... I don't think you have participated in this thread thus far unless I overlooked some postings... this thread is about a Kelly KDHB14500(B) that doesn't work, and my rantings about how I have tried various solutions to get it working... And that I intend to dissect the sucker and post the entire dissection. And I will make a prediction here just on gut instinct, having been involved in the manufacture of IC boards and a trainer of those that assembled such for government contracts, that it is one of two things that come to mind: A bad solder joint, or a 'scratch-board' (a board that was recycled for repair and the repair was faulty but it was put out for consumption). That is my prediction... we shall see if I am right. What can I say... later.


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't want to discount your frustrating experience and I am not offended. I sincerely hope that you are able to get the second controller up and running. I don't have any useful suggestions there. I wish I did.

My participation in the thread was limited to reading it until I saw your discription of the original failure in the other thread. I didn't see any suggestions posted that would help avoid another fire and thought it might be useful to you if I pointed it out. If I have offended you I apologise.

Michael


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> I don't want to discount your frustrating experience and I am not offended. I sincerely hope that you are able to get the second controller up and running. I don't have any useful suggestions there. I wish I did.
> 
> My participation in the thread was limited to reading it until I saw your discription of the original failure in the other thread. I didn't see any suggestions posted that would help avoid another fire and thought it might be useful to you if I pointed it out. If I have offended you I apologise.
> 
> Michael


no, no offense taken. This failure was not one involving fire and smoke, like the first one...  ... this one was just a one and a half-second burst of motor coming on, and then nothing...nada... zippo!... and everything external to the controller is correct (and even corrected a wire that had come loose on the 12V neg of the controller power at position 3 on the aviation plug)... So it is 'autopsy time'... When I get back from town (gotta go get a hydraulic hose and replace a couple of connections with swivel fittings on my wood-splitter)... I will see if I can get the controller removed from its perch and prepared in the 'laboratory' for a dissection... later!


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Fugdabug,

Just a thought. In your first post of this string you discribed your startup sequence and it once again involved energizing your contactor with control voltage first and then supplying full voltage to the controller with your breaker. Again, no precharge.

I wonder if this type of failure is becoming or has become common to kelly and perhaps they put some sort of sacrificial component (fuse? fusable link? whatever?) in the second controller they sent to you to protect it from a similar failure?

Steven stated that they were working to create protection from "no precharge" situations.

I know you are not a fan of the man, but maybe it would be worth asking.

Maybe it will be a simple fix. Again, just a thought.

Michael


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Fug,

Do you mind if I call you Fug?

here is a reply from Kelly regarding your situation:

I guess it could wire throttle to wrong pin. It should be pin 7 of J2. It may need open the plug and check the wiring. If you can measure voltage on throttle pin changing, and wired it to J2 pin7, it should run.

Actually *lights should be on with proper power supply, even controller was blow out*. You need 12V to PWR, and 12 minus to GND pin (J2 pin2 or Pin3, NOT B-).

(Michael again)

I don't know if this is helpful, but what the hell.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> Fug,
> 
> Do you mind if I call you Fug?
> 
> ...


Please note: I posted pictures of the pin arrangement that came from Kelly's website, and I do have the wiring correct. Across the two poles of the main traction circuit through the contactor is a 300OHM 10W resistor (provided by Kelly... I had extras from an order I made to Kelly for extra aviation plugs, some diodes (which were different from what they had pictured on their website), and a wiring interface with harness courtesy of the 'used' parts pile from Kelly... And I conversed with the person a couple of times to make sure I was correct. So no.., it isn't a precharge matter the scheme worked beautifully with the start sequence in the 14500A with 72VDC system, it ran the system at 144VDC for as long as the controller could take the load about half a minute-(I was sold a 14500(a) in the original order that was listed as a 14500(b) from Electric Vehicles USA). The contactor coil is dioded with a 1N4004, it is a 12VDC coil. And the configuration ran for about one and a half seconds with the 14500(B)... and then the controller failed to provide a clear circuit of traction power supply. The lights come on, but nobody is home... it is done, over, finito. A doorstop is a doorstop,.. next it is on to the autopsy. That is all that is left for the 14500B that I have on my vehicle... And if I can repair it myself I will do so. But first I need to examine the guts and I intend to vid the process and take photos. 
And if I can't repair it... I am going to buy myself a 'crappy American Made'* Curtis controller that is all there is to it. I am not going to throw good money after bad. 
*I will leave it to readers of the threads to go back and see the comments made by the representative of Kelly. 
-fugdabug (technically applicable term from my computing systems days... 'fug da bug!.. I'm going for it... ' you can't let a broken system get you down... you either try to get it working or repair it yourself.., failing that move on...


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Well, motor is good (tested via direct power worked peachy!), contactor is good, battery pack is EXCELLENT, 12v system is good... Controller... is Phhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttttt~ So time to move on... 
See you all in some other thread... the box is dead. Long live the box!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I will reiterate my first post here.


TheSGC said:


> Well that just sucks man. Just really, really sucks.


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Sorry to hear about the second failure fugdabug. I almost went with the Kelly but found a used Curtis on Ebay. Now I am hoping I didn't buy a brick.
I have had good luck with Curtis and Logisystems in the past, I think I will put up with the non programmable squealer for now.
I hope the examination allows you to find and correct the problem. Will they take it back for a refund? I would send that sucker back.


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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

Fug,

I owe you an apology. I think I might have been projecting my frustration over MY mistake that fried my controller.

I hope you get resolution from Kelly.

Michael


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

ZenDaddy said:


> Fug,
> 
> I owe you an apology. I think I might have been projecting my frustration over MY mistake that fried my controller.
> 
> ...


No problem, I didn't buy it from Kelly directly. This is the second one I have had... So like I said, I intend to buy a Curtis to replace it. There have been a lot of constant changes with the Kelly product line and well, they are new to the scene and may be working out bugs. But I can't take the chance any further with being asked to buy 'up' to another update. My money is tight and the car needs to be working. That is my main issue. I hope things work out for you, and all who are having problems whatever they be, the whole thing is we are here to work out matters so we can get our vehicles on the road, reliable and keep up with the tech that comes available. If I could afford it right now I would be movin to an AC system... I have a truck I could easily convert heavy enough to take on such a task... 
but that is only a dream. And by the way, no problem... When you have 10,000 plus investment sitting there going no where on your mind... you get a bit testy... I am on a very low budget right at this time. Business is nil, and the economy is in tatters and suppliers are suddenly getting to be fewer and farther between. And I think with most of us here these projects we have undertaken are important. For what ever reason we choose, whether it is experimentation, racing, practical use or research... it is important. I wish you well with your project. Hey, just gotta keep trying and do with whatever will fill the bill right? So no hard feelings... I am a bit off the wall at times...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

fugdabug said:


> No problem, I didn't buy it from Kelly directly. This is the second one I have had... So like I said, I intend to buy a Curtis to replace it. There have been a lot of constant changes with the Kelly product line and well, they are new to the scene and may be working out bugs. But I can't take the chance any further with being asked to buy 'up' to another update. My money is tight and the car needs to be working. That is my main issue. I hope things work out for you, and all who are having problems whatever they be, the whole thing is we are here to work out matters so we can get our vehicles on the road, reliable and keep up with the tech that comes available. If I could afford it right now I would be movin to an AC system... I have a truck I could easily convert heavy enough to take on such a task...
> but that is only a dream. And by the way, no problem... When you have 10,000 plus investment sitting there going no where on your mind... you get a bit testy... I am on a very low budget right at this time. Business is nil, and the economy is in tatters and suppliers are suddenly getting to be fewer and farther between. And I think with most of us here these projects we have undertaken are important. For what ever reason we choose, whether it is experimentation, racing, practical use or research... it is important. I wish you well with your project. Hey, just gotta keep trying and do with whatever will fill the bill right? So no hard feelings... I am a bit off the wall at times...


Are you going to try to send it back again and have it repaired? Since you are going to get a Curtis, you might as well try to get your Kelly fixed anyways while it's still under warranty. It might good to have a spare or something of bartering use for more EV parts.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

They haven't talked to me except to say that the other items I have on order shipped... I wrote them and asked them 'now what?' Not one word and I figure they probably think they ate enough expense... which means also they are not going to be linked anymore from my site. 
And though I may unfortunately pay about 300 dollars more for the same Curtis controller from some other folks at least they deliver pronto. But those folks have never once turned me down or not replied unlike the folks that talked me into the Kelly over the Curtis in the first place. And since Steven and I are not on good terms and I personally cannot say I trust him (that is just my opinion!)... I am going to get some cleaner and wash off the goo that covers the components and see if I can't salvage parts, it should at least yield some good caps and transistors.. and maybe a diode or two. However I WILL have a car up and running sooner than later and with a time tested product. And that is worth all the peace of mind that will come with it. There is a lot I have to do yet with the vehicle and who knows I may change out the system to another vehicle soon due to some rust and weight issues so there is that to consider as well... Later, have an art project to finish over the weekend remaining.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

fugdabug said:


> They haven't talked to me except to say that the other items I have on order shipped... I wrote them and asked them 'now what?' Not one word and I figure they probably think they ate enough expense... which means also they are not going to be linked anymore from my site.
> And though I may unfortunately pay about 300 dollars more for the same Curtis controller from some other folks at least they deliver pronto. But those folks have never once turned me down or not replied unlike the folks that talked me into the Kelly over the Curtis in the first place. And since Steven and I are not on good terms and I personally cannot say I trust him (that is just my opinion!)... I am going to get some cleaner and wash off the goo that covers the components and see if I can't salvage parts, it should at least yield some good caps and transistors.. and maybe a diode or two. However I WILL have a car up and running sooner than later and with a time tested product. And that is worth all the peace of mind that will come with it. There is a lot I have to do yet with the vehicle and who knows I may change out the system to another vehicle soon due to some rust and weight issues so there is that to consider as well... Later, have an art project to finish over the weekend remaining.


Definitely get that EV going! I just had a nice joyride in mine today and it was great! I still haven't mounted a darn thing down, but a quick jaunt around the neighborhood was really nice.

Anyways, it must be a bad season for controllers. We just had two Solectria AC controllers die this week at school, and one dropped dead in the middle of traffic, of course right in front of me! There is this flaw in the regen system that will fry the controller if the batteries are greater than 95% charged and you hit the brakes with the regen active. Really stupid I know. This seems to be commom enough that the EV deparment has a budget for controller repair. 

I did a comparison between the Kelly KDH09401 and the Curtis 1221C and they both have the same current limitations and overall specs. The Kelly actually has a higher continuous current than the Curtis 1221C. I have the schematics for the 1221B and it scares me, so I went with the Kelly and it has treated me just fine at it's max voltage of 96 volts.

The Curtis 1231C, however, is supposed to be a real beast. I just couldn't afford it or justify the $1700 for it when my whole budget was $3K. One bit of advice with the Curtis is that you should use as short motor cables as possible. The stray inductance from the motor and long cables can destroy the freewheel diodes, and 11" and 13" Warp Motors destroy the 1231C like your Kelly because the ringing from the large motor just kills the diodes.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> The Curtis 1231C, however, is supposed to be a real beast. I just couldn't afford it or justify the $1700 for it when my whole budget was $3K. One bit of advice with the Curtis is that you should use as short motor cables as possible. The stray inductance from the motor and long cables can destroy the freewheel diodes, and 11" and 13" Warp Motors destroy the 1231C like your Kelly because the ringing from the large motor just kills the diodes.


Could you describe how this ringing is generated and is there any way besides short cable runs to stop it or reduce it's effects?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Could you describe how this ringing is generated and is there any way besides short cable runs to stop it or reduce it's effects?


The ringing is created by the motor windings and inductance created by it. There really isn't a fix that wouldn't have some weird side effect that I can think of except make the cables really short, and a very large gauge, like 4/0 for the motor to controller connections. Pretty much a 9" motor and under is fine, but the 11" and greater just have too much inductance for any of the Curtis Controllers to handle (Or most of the Kelly's and Altrax for that matter). You really need a Zilla for the larger motors since I haven't heard of anyone using the Kelly 156 volt or a Logisystems 156 volt controller on 11" and higher motors.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Pretty much a 9" motor and under is fine, but the 11" and greater just have too much inductance for any of the Curtis Controllers to handle (Or most of the Kelly's and Altrax for that matter). You really need a Zilla for the larger motors since I haven't heard of anyone using the Kelly 156 volt or a Logisystems 156 volt controller on 11" and higher motors.


Hmmm, that's a problem since I was planning exactly that, Warp11, 156 volt, and the Zilla is no longer available


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

What about a choke or wrapping the cable through a ferrite ring?
I think a choke would be a big heavy addition though. 
When I get mine running I will put the oscilliscope on it and take a look.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> The ringing is created by the motor windings and inductance created by it.


Correct... whether it is dI/dt induced ringing (spikes) killing the controller OR because the current is ramping up faster than the controller can react to it, though, is difficult to determine without a scope, current probe and, ideally, an LCR bridge (to measure the motor inductance).




> There really isn't a fix that wouldn't have some weird side effect that I can think of except make the cables really short, and a very large gauge, like 4/0 for the motor to controller connections.


Well, you could put a _large_ TVS or MOV across the motor terminals to chop off any spikes created (with maybe a little bit of series resistance to limit the surge current when it fires). Of course, there's also the venerable RC or RCD snubber, though designing that is a lot more involved that simply slapping a TVS or MOV on the motor. 




> Pretty much a 9" motor and under is fine, but the 11" and greater just have too much inductance for any of the Curtis Controllers to handle (Or most of the Kelly's and Altrax for that matter). You really need a Zilla for the larger motors since I haven't heard of anyone using the Kelly 156 volt or a Logisystems 156 volt controller on 11" and higher motors.


Sadly, this is one bit of crucial data that no motor manufacturer seems to want to provide: the field and armature inductances. Note that too little inductance can cause just as much trouble as too much! If the motor inductance is too low then the current will rise too quickly during switch turn-on for the controller to react; if the motor inductance is too high then the voltage spike produced during switch turn-off will likewise be too high for the switches to handle. And predicting what the inductance of a smaller or larger motor would be compared to another is nearly futile since there are so many variables that can affect it. About the only prediction you can reliably make is that usually a motor rated for a higher voltage but the same horsepower as an otherwise identical motor will also have a higher inductance.

But hey, it's stuff like this that makes you folks the pioneers! ...you know, the people laying face down in the mud with arrows in their backs


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Definitely get that EV going! I just had a nice joyride in mine today and it was great! I still haven't mounted a darn thing down, but a quick jaunt around the neighborhood was really nice.
> 
> Anyways, it must be a bad season for controllers. We just had two Solectria AC controllers die this week at school, and one dropped dead in the middle of traffic, of course right in front of me! There is this flaw in the regen system that will fry the controller if the batteries are greater than 95% charged and you hit the brakes with the regen active. Really stupid I know. This seems to be commom enough that the EV deparment has a budget for controller repair.
> 
> ...


I don't have cables much over 12" long. One of the first things I planned was how to make sure that the controller was as close as possible to the controller (that is why it is positioned over the motor). Electric Vehicles USA has the Curtis 1231C -8601 for about (US$1575)... 
I am currently set up with 108VDC, so I figure with the Curtis a 96-144VDC rating means that the system is safe for the simple application I have. Oh the motor is a D&D Systems ES31B (rated at 40HP max) I can tell you with the original six Optima D31A's I had with the 14500a Kelly it was a major accelerator... it would get up and go when on the flat, I don't mean stomping the accelerator pedal but just a gradual increase would get you up to good speeds in no time! Love my D&D~


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Well, you could put a _large_ TVS or MOV across the motor terminals to chop off any spikes created (with maybe a little bit of series resistance to limit the surge current when it fires). Of course, there's also the venerable RC or RCD snubber, though designing that is a lot more involved that simply slapping a TVS or MOV on the motor.


Any chance you could translate that into English for some of us   TVS, MOV, RC, RDC 





> Sadly, this is one bit of crucial data that no motor manufacturer seems to want to provide: the field and armature inductances. Note that too little inductance can cause just as much trouble as too much! If the motor inductance is too low then the current will rise too quickly during switch turn-on for the controller to react; if the motor inductance is too high then the voltage spike produced during switch turn-off will likewise be too high for the switches to handle. And predicting what the inductance of a smaller or larger motor would be compared to another is nearly futile since there are so many variables that can affect it. About the only prediction you can reliably make is that usually a motor rated for a higher voltage but the same horsepower as an otherwise identical motor will also have a higher inductance.


I read somewhere that while a Warp 11 has more inductance than a Warp 9, it's about the same as an ADC 9. Don't know if there is any proof to back that up.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is where I read that:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=469
There is also discussion of motor inductance/controller behavior, with one person suggesting that more inductance is better:


> Matt, don't worry too much about the inductance of the motor. It is fixed. You can't change it (other than add some more externally). More is actually better as it limits di/dt so controller current limit has time to act without taking up smoking.
> Inductance is constant whether measured at 1kHz or 15kHz, as is the capacitance and the DC resistance (DC obviously). It is the interaction between these that produces the reactance (that changes slightly with frequency, dominated by DC resistance) that the controller must drive into. The capacitance is small but bad for a controller (increases di/dt).


However he earlier suggested that the Warp11 had less inductance than the Warp9, so I don't know if he is correct. There is just too much I don't know about this stuff and the more I know the more I need to know


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Any chance you could translate that into English for some of us   TVS, MOV, RC, RDC
> 
> I read somewhere that while a Warp 11 has more inductance than a Warp 9, it's about the same as an ADC 9. Don't know if there is any proof to back that up.


Sorry for the techno-babble...

TVS = transient voltage suppressor; MOV = metal oxide varistor. The devices capable of handling really high surge currents also tend to have rather high voltage ratings - at least 170VDC sustaining and 200V triggering. If your controller uses 150V MOSFETs you are SOL with these babies. They do the job admirably, otherwise. 

RC/RCD = resistor-capacitor; resistor-capacitor-diode. Literally, a low-inductance power resistor (wirewounds not allowed!) in series with a large polypropylene film capacitor (several amps may flow through both in operation so bigger is better). Figuring out the values is tough, though, if you don't know the total system inductance and impossible if you don't have a scope. It is theoretically possible to calculate, or at least estimate, the values of the resistor and capacitor, but most of the time you measure the frequency of the ringing spike with a scope (assuming the controller can survive that long) then add capacitance across the switch or the inductor (motor) until the frequency is cut in half (e.g. - from 100kHz to 50kHz) or 2MHz to 1MHz, etc.) Then you insert a low-inductance resistor in series with the capacitance until the overshoot stops. The system will then be "critically damped". How much capacitance; how much resistance??? Dunno - depends on the motor inductance, ringing frequency, etc. - this is why I said it is hard to design this type of snubber without any of the relevant data ahead of time!

Also, if you are Matt on the other forum I wouldn't waste your money on an LCR meter just to measure a motor's inductance. The reason why is if the motor has ever been energized it will almost assuredly have some residual magnetism that will screw up the measuring process of most meters. The only sure way to measure a motor's inductance is to make a resonant circuit out of it and a good quality capacitor, then apply a square wave to it with a wide range frequency generator and watch for the voltage to peak (capacitor and motor inductance in series) or the current to dip (capacitor in parallel). Tedious but the only sure way to do it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No I'm not Matt, (I'm John actually), just came across that post while investigating motor inductance. Thanks for clarifying the terminology.
Can I assume from what we are seeing with Warp11s and controllers dying that 
a. The Warp11 is not similar in inductance to the ADC9
and
b.


> More is actually better as it limits di/dt so controller current limit has time to act without taking up smoking.


 is not accurate? 
and
c. Hooking up a Warp11 to anything other than the unavailable Zilla is just asking for trouble at this time?


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## Tom Thomson (Jun 11, 2008)

I have seen several mentions of precharge resistors in reference to protecting the controller. I had thought that the purpose of a precharge resistor was to protect the main contactor points when loading the controller capacitors. Any thoughts?
tommyt


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> No I'm not Matt, (I'm John actually), just came across that post while investigating motor inductance. Thanks for clarifying the terminology.
> Can I assume from what we are seeing with Warp11s and controllers dying that
> a. The Warp11 is not similar in inductance to the ADC9


A safe assumption, yes, but is the inductance of the Warp11 higher or lower than the ADC9??? *Either* higher or lower could cause problems...




> and
> b. [more inductance is better] is not accurate?


More inductance is better if you want to slow down the rate at which current rises in the motor when the switch is on. More inductance is *worse* if there is no snubber or other means to deal with the energy released when the switch turns off. It's a proverbial two-edged sword: more inductance is good for the switch when it turns on but bad for the switch when it turns off. Less inductance is the opposite.




> and
> c. Hooking up a Warp11 to anything other than the unavailable Zilla is just asking for trouble at this time?


Dunno for sure, but it sure sounds like the Warp11 is a bit ahead of current controller technology. I'll try to get more data on it tomorrow...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Tom Thomson said:


> I have seen several mentions of precharge resistors in reference to protecting the controller. I had thought that the purpose of a precharge resistor was to protect the main contactor points when loading the controller capacitors. Any thoughts?
> tommyt


The main reason is to protect the contactor contacts, definitely, but a secondary reason is to vaporizing the PC board the capacitors inside the controller are (most likely) mounted on and/or prevent the foil inside them from literally jumping if slammed with kiloamps of current.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

FWIW Here's what looking into my warp9 returns with 12" of 00.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> FWIW Here's what looking into my warp9 returns with 12" of 00.


The chart is a bit grainy and small but it looks like the self-resonant frequency is 3Mhz and with a Q of 10 or so... am I reading that right?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> c. Hooking up a Warp11 to anything other than the unavailable Zilla is just asking for trouble at this time?


If you look at the EVDL a bunch of people are saying that their Warp 11's and Warp 13's are toasting their Curtis's like crazy. The Warp 11 and 13 are torque monsters, which also means that are AMP suckers. 

I think the inductance is lower in the 11 than the 9 because the 11 is supposed to suck upwards of 900 AMPs from a dead start opposed to the 9's 750 AMPs from a dead stop, but I don't have verification on those numbers.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The chart is a bit grainy and small but it looks like the self-resonant frequency is 3Mhz and with a Q of 10 or so... am I reading that right?


Here's the raw data. I'm only joking around with this guys. My vector impedance meter won't go below 100kHz so I'm not sure how useful the data is.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Tom Thomson said:


> I have seen several mentions of precharge resistors in reference to protecting the controller. I had thought that the purpose of a precharge resistor was to protect the main contactor points when loading the controller capacitors. Any thoughts?
> tommyt


Actually I had kinda been in that thought pattern too...Also, I believe in 'K-I-S-S'... 
The vast majority of the last part of the posts have dealt with matters that require tools such as an O-scope (a couple $K for a good one), plus some high voltage test equipment that frankly a garage builder isn't going to have unless they are just fresh out of EE school or employed by an Electrical Tech facility (who has the resources available for people to get their hands on.) 
And a Joe Schmoe - '?C'est Moi'?, even with monetary resources, is not yet ready to delve into... programming for and setting a square wave at a specific level or decoding the sine angle on a motors field,.. gonna have to read the manual on that one! I want to be able to take what is at hand get it up and going on a basic level THEN work into the nuances... and at my age (though I do intend to restart some classes in the Spring... And have a bit of a background... EE not hardly!) I am looking at the practical application, and problem resolution of a specific controller... and comparitive experience of other end-users... a-si`


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