# Can Someone Explain To Me Why This Won't Work



## Schmism (Aug 16, 2008)

take a close look at the rpm rage of each motor. most croch rocket ICE (ninja) make there power way up on the RPM range...6-10K that wont work if its directly coupled to an electric motor with a top RPM of say 3500.

are you planning to clutch between the ICE and electic? if not how do you plan to get round the added drag (engine braking) when the ICE is off and electric is on?

how small a vehical? remember a stock 60's VW bug was ~1800 lbs and about 35hp


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

thanks for the reply. you are indeed correct about the rpm range of the motors, I figured that a 2-1 or 3-1 reduction sprocket on the ice, would take care of the rpm disparity, so with the ice turning 8 to 10k, the ice EV motor would be turning 3 to 4K. the overrunning sprague clutch will keep the ice from turning from the revolution of the electric motor. The sprague clutch will freewheel until the ice pics up more speed than the shaft of the electric motor. Correct on the hp of the Bug, but remember that most of the hp is used in going from start to 55 mph. There are alot of charts that show that an aerodynamic car uses 15 to 20 hp at cruise speed


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

I think your idea has merit and you should try it! I am sure you may come across some technical difficulties along the way, but I think your plan is reasonable. Considering the actual wild and crazy things that people manage to make(like a motorcycle out of 24 chainsaw engines!) the naysayers around here can be a little excessive. I think sometimes you run into a little bit of group think in a environment like this, and it is hard to deviate from the original standard without getting a lot of dismissing criticism. I have seen this in a lot of other tech/diy communities before though so it not unique here. 

A sprague clutch is a type of "free wheeling" clutch, you may want to look at all of the options though. 

Take a look at this: One Way Clutch Types and Applications.

Good luck!


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

I dont see why it wouldn't work, and just to be sure I understand you idea I made a simple drawing









I think if you used an older muscle type car with a nice long front end you should have no problem fitting it all in there. 

I plan on making my car a hybrid too but I'll be doing a series set up, ice turning a generator to make electricity, my hood is too short to fit a electric motor and ice in there but I like the simplicity of your idea. You could even use it to generate power to recharge your battery's buy using your motor like a generator.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

You nailed it with your #4 from the original post.

Motorcycles are not held to the same emissions standard as cars are. Unless your conversion vehicle is old enough not to require emissions testing in your area, then putting the motorcycle engine in the vehicle will require you to pass the same emissions testing as the original vehicle... and a motorcycle engine will fail that test.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Saab Motors desgned this type of hybrid with the EV motor between the transmission and the engine.It regen brakes,starts the engine and takes the place of the alternator.GM would not have any of this,so it got shelved just like the EV-1.


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

TX_Dj said:


> You nailed it with your #4 from the original post.
> 
> Motorcycles are not held to the same emissions standard as cars are. Unless your conversion vehicle is old enough not to require emissions testing in your area, then putting the motorcycle engine in the vehicle will require you to pass the same emissions testing as the original vehicle... and a motorcycle engine will fail that test.


I see this brought up a lot as a problem in this sort of conversion but its not always a problem for everyone, not everybody lives were emissions testing is even conducted so it wouldn't matter. Another way I would think to get around testing is just register the car as and electric only and then put the bike engine in after. The way emissions is conducted seems quite stupid just because the engine is now in a 4 wheeled vehicle suddenly it has to be much cleaner.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

wiredsim thanks for the clutch ink. ioku, yes that diagram about covers it. I am in missouri and emissions tests are not done here, in fact, they never even open the hood and wouldn't even know it was an electric car if you didn't tell them. lol. The muscle car idea would certainly make more room, but I think i'll stay with the lightweight aerodynamic car and remove the radiator and squeeze the motor in. I actually think that choosing an aerodynamic car is one of the most important things when building an EV. look at a motorcycle, for example. a motorcycle that weighs only 500 pounds may get less mpg than a 2000 pound car, even when driven cautiously. the only thing that I can come up with is that the aerodynamics are so awful (rider sitting bolt upright and legs sticking out etc) that gas mileage suffers. therefore I think i'll go with a car with a low drag coefficiency. there are plenty of charts online.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

It is a much better idea, than a lot of them we get.

Most of the questions like that can be answered by telling them to sit in a wheel barrow, lift the handles and run themselves down the driveway and back!!!


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Coley said:


> Most of the questions like that can be answered by telling them to sit in a wheel barrow, lift the handles and run themselves down the driveway and back!!!


 
I like that! Reminds me of watching my 2 year old nephew trying to pick up the cardboard box "airplane" he was sitting in.

Later,
Keith


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Man, I like the idea so much I just may try it! (in a 4 wheeler that is) I am kind of doing the exact same thing with my diesel / electric hybrid ( tshtrikes.com) the problems I ran into early on is the clutch, I went with a centrifigual, and once you get above 10hp (I am using a 10hp diesel so what, about 14hp if it were gas)

I plan on doing the first "electric to diesel hand off" in a week or so once we get the body molded.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

Coley: you stated that "it's better question than most of "them" that we get here" 
Admittedly I am not a senior member here and perhaps that is why I am too dense and intellectually stunted to understand how my idea is comparabe to lifting a wheelbarrow that one is sitting in. Perhaps you can enlighten as well as humiliate. Please humor me by explaing how my proposal defies the laws of physics.


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

I don't mean to put words in Coley's mouth but I took his comment to be a compliment. He was saying your idea had merit vs a lot of the perpetual energy ideas that seem to be brought up like clockwork around here.


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## TimT (Apr 10, 2008)

Could you make the ICE drive just the front wheels and the electric motor drive just the rears? Or vise versa what ever works.

Tim


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## Zer0 (May 9, 2008)

I agree with wiredsim, i think Coley was not referring to your idea, but others that pop up periodically with ideas that are simply not feasible, unlike yours which definitely is feasible given the right skills.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Speaking as another novice, what you have described is a hybrid which has manual controls to switch between ICE and electric. I don't think there's anything stupid about that idea at all.

The only thing I would change is to put a pulley between motor and transmission and put the ICE parallel to the electric, so the motor shaft need not handle the additional torque of the ICE. I would also contemplate a sprague clutch for the motor, although all that would save you is if your electric motor locked up you could still get home on the ICE.

Come to think of it, the extra clutch is an unnecessary complication. However, the belt drive would get you a vibration damper on the ICE, as well as shorten your setup so length wouldn't be a problem so much.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

jonescade said:


> Coley: you stated that "it's better question than most of "them" that we get here"
> Admittedly I am not a senior member here and perhaps that is why I am too dense and intellectually stunted to understand how my idea is comparabe to lifting a wheelbarrow that one is sitting in. Perhaps you can enlighten as well as humiliate. Please humor me by explaing how my proposal defies the laws of physics.


I meant that your idea was much more workable, as far as I could see.

Meaning that most of what we get are impossible, as is the wheel barrow....

Those we get way too often.

Try yours, as it may have been used in the past and overlooked.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Ioku said:


> I see this brought up a lot as a problem in this sort of conversion but its not always a problem for everyone, not everybody lives were emissions testing is even conducted so it wouldn't matter. Another way I would think to get around testing is just register the car as and electric only and then put the bike engine in after. The way emissions is conducted seems quite stupid just because the engine is now in a 4 wheeled vehicle suddenly it has to be much cleaner.


Just because you may not live in an emissions-testing area doesn't mean you should try to thwart emissions requirements. EPA regulations state that if the vehicle was delivered with emissions equipment, the equipment must remain. Even when I worked as a mechanic in a rural non-emissions county, if it was apparent that the emissions equipment was removed or bypassed, the vehicle failed inspection, even though we never checked what came out the tailpipe.

It has nothing to do with where the engine came from, but rather what the engine exists in. I.E. I cannot take a diesel engine and legally put it into a gas powered car, unless that same car was available with that same diesel engine. The EPA certifies the engine/chassis combination. Furthermore, I think it's a little silly to recommend someone mechanically remove the motorcycle ICE from the vehicle once a year to get the vehicle inspected. I *like* working on things, and I wouldn't want to put up with that hassle.

Keep in mine, running your gas powered lawn mower for 1 hour puts out the same emissions as 4 hours of running on the freeway in a modern emissions-controlled vehicle. Motorcycles typically do not have emissions equipment, and in fact, 2007 was the first year that motorcycles had to ship from the factory with the same sort of emissions equipment as was required on cars and light trucks in the late 60's and early 70's. Many have catalytic converters now, as well.

But... even if you took something like the V-twin from a 2007+ motorcycle that has emissions systems, it technically would still be illegal by federal law, because that engine is not certified by the EPA for the chassis you're putting it into.

*shrug*


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

If we went under that logic TX, in some beuracracies, people who remove the catalitic converter (as part of an ev conversion) would be guilty of um... something 

Im being tounge in cheek, and its apperent that there are many reasons people convert. mainly using less (or no) gas, and creating less pollution. 

Its nice when we can do both.

I am on the side of using less gas and loosening our dependancy on foriegn oil.

With so little work by big companies to improve fuel efficiency (or so little hitting the light of day that is) I beleive that its up to the Anasari contenders, and home experimenters. Better to ask forgiveness then permission as in build the innovations, even if they smoke like hell, then make them efficient AND less polluting.

What does the group think?


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## TimT (Apr 10, 2008)

Its best to follow the local laws concerning emissions equipment. That is why I suggested a front wheel drive ICE car. Keep it stock, keep it legal. Then with minimum fabrication install a rear axle/differential with an electric motor attached strait to the pumpkin. I believe it would be easy enough to switch between the two power sources on the fly.

Tim


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## Turbotom (Jul 13, 2008)

I have thought about this approach for a while and have started laying it out, it will be going in a S10 pickup. The ICE is a 620 cc 20 HP 2 cylinder engine from John Deere Gator.










For the clutch I am thinking an electric clutch similar to an air conditioner but stronger something like on this

http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008062721104561&item=9-1737&catname=hydraulic

The engine will be gasoline to begin with but I thought of trying E85 once it is up and running.

My thought was the same, the motor will get me around town and when I want extended range the motor gets me up to 50 or so then I'll start the ICE and engage the electric clutch. I thought os controlling the ICE with a cruise control. If I come to a hill too much for the ICE I can step on the pedal and add electric assist to maintain speed. The advantage I see is the ICE only has to be geared and optimized to run at one speed range ie 50-60 MPH.

So I vote YES it will work


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## TheSeeker (Mar 19, 2008)

Wiredsim said:


> I think your idea has merit and you should try it! I am sure you may come across some technical difficulties along the way, but I think your plan is reasonable. Considering the actual wild and crazy things that people manage to make(like a motorcycle out of 24 chainsaw engines!) the naysayers around here can be a little excessive. I think sometimes you run into a little bit of group think in a environment like this, and it is hard to deviate from the original standard without getting a lot of dismissing criticism. I have seen this in a lot of other tech/diy communities before though so it not unique here.
> 
> A sprague clutch is a type of "free wheeling" clutch, you may want to look at all of the options though.
> 
> ...


I would say it has merit too, mostly because the exact setup being described is also a recommended configuration on that site for selectable power supplies. If it's good enough for industrial manufacturing processes...


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

TIMT: I suppose you could drive the front tires with one motor and the rear tires with the other motor. I have a geo tracker and that was my first thought but after I considered it for awhile I decided that it would take alot more engineering to do it that way. However, there is many a slip twixt the cup and the lip and I am not married to the configuration that I suggested early in this thread.

1CLUE: separate belt configuration is an interesting idea. It bears consideration to be sure. had thought about extending the electric motor shaft and putting an end bearing on the shaft to take the force off the electric motor bearings.

COLEY: my apologies. I'm new here and I hadn't seen all the perpetual energy suggestions here. In fact I have been running into that alot on my own from "so called" experts. I keep getting ridiculous answers such as "why don't you just add an alternator to the wheel and recharge your batteries". I thought you were comparing my ideas to that. I guess I'm getting a little irritable and i'll try to relax a bit. Hope you understand as i'm not here to make enemies, in fact, I am happy to find this forum because I know that someone here can help me with this.

TX-Dj: don't really see how this is "twarting" the emissions laws. the 250 ninja engine is allowed on the highway in everystate in the U.S. perhaps it is violating the letter of the law since it is in a different chassis, but from an environmental standpoint it is an emmisions tested engine.

THESEEKER: Wow! thanks. I went to that site off of Wiredsim's link and didn't even see that. Gives me more confidence to drop some cash now.

TURBOTOM: You are way ahead of me. Nice looking setup. What is the speed of your engine? looks like you have about a 3-1 reduction in mind. Interesting idea on the cruise control. since I don't have any hills here, I was planning on just having the gas pedal run them both, and when the EV motor was off, the pedal would run the throttle and vice versa but not having them both on at once. I think I like your idea better. Think an air conditioner clutch would have the balls to run 20 hp? I think an auto ac can be run by about 1 hp. I don't really know how strong the clutch is but the price is right. Email me at [email protected] if you want to chat sometime. I'd like to stay in contact with you.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

todayican said:


> If we went under that logic TX, in some beuracracies, people who remove the catalitic converter (as part of an ev conversion) would be guilty of um... something


True - but since an all-electric drivetrain does not produce emissions, it does not fall under the EPA's jurisdiction, thus they have no means to dictate that an electric motor is not certified for powering a specific chassis... because it has no emissions.

If it produces no emissions, it is not required to have emissions equipment.  However, not all political entities are as logical as we are.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

jonescade said:


> TX-Dj: don't really see how this is "twarting" the emissions laws. the 250 ninja engine is allowed on the highway in everystate in the U.S. perhaps it is violating the letter of the law since it is in a different chassis, but from an environmental standpoint it is an emmisions tested engine.


Correct. The Ninja 250 (motorcycle) is allowed on the highway. The Ninja 250 is subject to EPA requirements for motorcycles in its year of manufacture. Motorcycles (even in 2008) are not subject to the same emissions regulations as a passenger vehicle of the same year of manufacture.

The emissions requirements apply to the vehicle- if you have a 1998 car you intend to put a 1998 Ninja 250 engine into, the Ninja 250 engine must meet the same emissions requirements as the 1998 car- which are far more stringent than the 1998 motorcycle. Furthermore, because the Ninja 250 engine is not certified for use in that chassis, you are technically in violation of federal law, and the penalties are not inexpensive.

To recap - If your area tests emissions on motorcycles (and most do NOT) the motorcycle will not be required to be as "clean" as a passenger car of the same year of manufacture. Whereas the passenger car may have an engine that is many liters larger in displacement, with a much higher power rating, it also is required to have much lower CO, NOx, and hydrocarbon emission. The motorcycle engine of the same year of manufacture cannot meet that requirement without substantial modification, and even if it were, it would still be against federal law to do so, even if your state/county/municipality overlooks the enforcement of such.

To put it another way, if you were to build this car as you are talking about, and if for some reason it DID pass emissions tests (or if your area does not do emissions tests) and you happened to drive by the roadside passive emissions testing vans that are gaining popularity, you will be cited if your emissions are in excess of what that model year vehicle is permitted to produce.

Does this make sense? I'm not trying to crush your dreams- only trying to keep you informed to prevent a very serious possibility of enforcement.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

okay, point taken and I get it. if that emissions van pulls me over though, they will probably be more upset that i've been drinking


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

TX_Dj said:


> The motorcycle engine of the same year of manufacture cannot meet that requirement without substantial modification, and even if it were, it would still be against federal law to do so, even if your state/county/municipality overlooks the enforcement of such.


Well you say it would be against the law even if it did pass emissions, but then explain to me how people do all sorts of other engine swaps and conversions with various ICE engines. I’m am quite active on a Subaru modification forum and many people there take engines from different year cars with different displacements and put turbos and superchargers in cars that never had them or never had that engine and the ones that have to pass emissions still do and don’t have any problems just because its not the same engine that was in the car. 

I don’t think its as set in stone as you say, and even if it is then screw those government beauraucrats with all there over the top rules if I want a hybrid car that has all electric range and get over 100 mpgs then I’m building it.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

I don’t think its as set in stone as you say, and even if it is then screw those government beauraucrats with all there over the top rules if I want a hybrid car that has all electric range and get over 100 mpgs then I’m building it.[/quote]

amen to that. If politicians were really interested in the public welfare they would look more carefully into one-off cars and consider the electric range into their assessment of emission pollution. Hell, for that matter, they could allow the high mileage diesel cars that all the world is allowed to drive except for us. Just for kicks they could consider the distance driven per amount of emissions instead of the amount of emmissions over time. Politicians are more interested in furthering high gasoline prices and taxes and feathering their own nests via special interest connections. I think they would like to keep us as slaves to fuel prices that eat up so much of our incomes that we are reduced to looking toward the govt. with dewy-eyed adoration in the hopes of recieving a few crumbs of public support to insure our very existence. But don't get me started....


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

The EPA is pretty serious about it, but granted they do very little enforcement- they are there to handle certification at the manufacturer level.

However, the law is pretty clear, by my recollection- if you put in an engine not certified for the chassis, it is in violation. This affects certain year models, I want to say anything from the 80s or 90s and newer. I can put whatever I want into something older, especially in TX, where emissions testing is only required for vehicles 25 yrs and newer, though any vehicle since 1967(? whenever emissions started coming out, back then it was simple, like a PCV) must still be equipped with the correct equipment... I.E. I could put a 454 in a (insert the blank here), but if that (blank) required catalytic converters, it has to have cats to pass inspection even if the car is over 25 yrs old.


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## Turbotom (Jul 13, 2008)

jonescade said:


> TURBOTOM: You are way ahead of me. Nice looking setup. What is the speed of your engine? looks like you have about a 3-1 reduction in mind. Interesting idea on the cruise control. since I don't have any hills here, I was planning on just having the gas pedal run them both, and when the EV motor was off, the pedal would run the throttle and vice versa but not having them both on at once. I think I like your idea better. Think an air conditioner clutch would have the balls to run 20 hp? I think an auto ac can be run by about 1 hp. I don't really know how strong the clutch is but the price is right. Email me at [email protected] if you want to chat sometime. I'd like to stay in contact with you.


The engine peaks at 3600 RPM. The pullies on there are just some I had laying around it will probably be 1:1 3rd gear at 3600 is 60 MPH. Having the pedal run both would be more difficult, your carb would be operating even when it was not running. I plan to experiment some, I also thought of an electric solenoid to bring the RPMs up it could be turned on with the electric clutch or maybe a simple throttle like a lawnmower has. 

This is the clutch I was thinking








I have one similar and specs are able to handle 20HP no problem. I thought that if I could set it up with a serpentine belt and belt tensioner the belt could be easily removed to reduce drag on the motor when the ICE was not needed. 

Still planning everything out, but the good news is THE ICE IS OUT! 

I removed the engine from my conversion last night so I will be able to do more measuring and planning now.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

Nothing wrong with passion guys, it keeps us making things.

Simple fact is, I didn't start a thread entitled "Can someone quote some EPA regulations explaining why I can't do this". Right now I am only interested in the nuts and bolts of why this will or won't work. I have replied to TX_dj and accepted that he has a point and now we are going to move on. If he wants to start an EPA regulation thread....well, that is the spirit of free idea exchange that this forum is all about. Now....how bout those EV's


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Jonescade, I think we've pretty much established that your idea would work, even if there might be a better way to approach it.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

1clue said:


> Jonescade, I think we've pretty much established that your idea would work


Right... I don't think anyone's said it *wouldn't* work, though I pointed out that using a Ninja 250 engine in a passenger car isn't going to fly with emissions regulators... whether it's enforced or not...


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Right... I don't think anyone's said it *wouldn't* work, though I pointed out that using a Ninja 250 engine in a passenger car isn't going to fly with emissions regulators... whether it's enforced or not...


This means he needs to research more about laws in his area and assess his options.

He could either figure out what the law is and follow it, or decide that the penalties (whatever they are) are low enough to risk getting caught. If the latter, I don't really need to hear about it. If the former, I think a description of circumstances would be helpful to others.


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## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

Getting back to the original topic I though I would jump in here. I've been lurking around on this forum for months and have gotten a lot out of all the input everyone has. Its funny how as I try to engineer solutions to problems I seem to be thinking of the very same solutions as others. Namely the original poster on this thread.

To date I have not found a very good clutching system that I have confidence in. The electric clutch I think has merit but I am still skeptical. I've also though about a snowmobile clutch and a centrifugal clutch.

Right now though this is my personal plan (subject to change). I would like to use a Solectria ac24 in parallel with a 800 to 1000 cc gas or diesel engine and only use the engine for freeway speeds or when the batteries are at 70% DOD. I would parallel with a belt and pulley (properly sized for RPM matching) and when the ICE is not running the belt tension would be released. I was actually thinking of a second clutch pedal that was hooked to a belt tensioner. When the gas engine is not used I would make it so the clutch pedal could be locked to the floor. The spring will have to be very stong and may need to be assisted my an actuator of some kind. Call me crazy but I want to give it a try.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Why not use a small electric actuator and a switch on the dash or steering wheel to engage rather than an elaborate (and scary sounding) clutch pedal/over-center spring setup?


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## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

I still may use an actuator if I can find one. I guess the reason I was thinking a second pedal is that I have a long history of fabricating strange ways to solve problems and ignoring the obvious. Thus the reason I'm doing a conversion in the first place. Most of my family and friends think I'm completely nuts and by the time I'm done I will have spent $5000 shy of a 2009 Honda Insight. I know I know the Insight is not a plug in hybrid but I think I would still like one.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

what? we are back to talking about the original concept? I had left for awhile since my thread was hijacked about 2 pages back and has gone off on a tangent that I couldn't care less about. 

Thanks for your input ELECTRIC RAV. Indeed, the clutching system is the weak link here. My idea of a sprague clutch really won't work if you intend to have both motors working simultaneously. turbo tom has convinced me that both motors need to work simultaneously for the concept to be most effective. n Interesting idea with the manual clutch. Being the type that has been known to use mechanical actuation when electrical would be a helluvalot easier, I understand your temptation do do just that. I initially thought of a snowmobile type centrifugal clutch as you mentioned, problem is, I think the belt being driven by the EV motor will cause the the clutch to become actuated and turn the ICE when it is off. Does anyone know if this is the case? I don't have any experience with centrifugal clutches.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Just my 2 cents, but I think that in this case K.I.S.S. points in the electrical direction. But, hey, it's your project. Build whatever you are comfortable with. And please, let us know how it turned out. I know i'll never live long enough to learn everything I want to on my own.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

If you set the engine to start up at around 30, then it might be reasonable to connect the engine and motor using a torque converter off an automatic transmission. The smaller the torque converter, the higher engine RPM needed to engage the clutch, dragsters use very small ones. Maybe that translates into a higher max "towing" speed, since that's basically what is going on during pure EV mode.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Wow this thread is a real breath of fresh air... well thought out plan, constructive criticism and tossing around of ideas and most of all I can see it actually turning out really well. I decided it would be much easier for new people reading this thread if the detour was removed so I deleted his posts and edited out the replies, not as a censorship thing but just so the thread remains accessible to new readers without getting turned off by a troll. Hope you don't mind.


As an aside, how vehicle specific are catalytic converters? Any chance of getting one for a ninja engine? Also I would take a look at the BSFC map of the ninja engine, you should get a load % and RPM range for the optimum power per volume of fuel which you should try and aim for at your cruising speed for the best FE.


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## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

Admittedly I don't know much about ninja engines (that is a motorcycle engine right)? Since we were talking about clutches a little bit ago. What would happen if you took the Ninja engine and the transmission, that is normally used with it, and use the clutch in it. Make the electric motor go right into your car's tranny but on the shaft have a pulley that goes up to the output of the ninja motor tranny combo. When you need to use the ICE engine engage the clutch. I'm not sure if the clutch plates in a motorcycle transmission could take the stress of a 2500 pound car and a 1000 pounds of lead though. Also, if you were in electric only mode, the extra drag of the pulley, belt and the disengaged motorcycle transmission will cause some inefficiencies. 

My brain is also swirling around the idea of some kind of magnetic clutch. You know, like some types of water pumps where the motor and the impeller are not actually connected physically but magnetically. No belts to wear out!

As soon as I order the controller and motor I'll probably start a blog of some type where the project can be chronicled.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Electric_Rav said:


> Admittedly I don't know much about ninja engines (that is a motorcycle engine right)? Since we were talking about clutches a little bit ago. What would happen if you took the Ninja engine and the transmission, that is normally used with it, and use the clutch in it. Make the electric motor go right into your car's tranny but on the shaft have a pulley that goes up to the output of the ninja motor tranny combo. When you need to use the ICE engine engage the clutch. I'm not sure if the clutch plates in a motorcycle transmission could take the stress of a 2500 pound car and a 1000 pounds of lead though. Also, if you were in electric only mode, the extra drag of the pulley, belt and the disengaged motorcycle transmission will cause some inefficiencies.
> 
> My brain is also swirling around the idea of some kind of magnetic clutch. You know, like some types of water pumps where the motor and the impeller are not actually connected physically but magnetically. No belts to wear out!
> 
> As soon as I order the controller and motor I'll probably start a blog of some type where the project can be chronicled.


I have some input to a lot of this based on my hobby: Hovercrafts. Please permit me to use that as an example, not to divert the thread but to give a real use case and let you all apply the knowledge to cars.

There is a significant number of hovercraft racers who use motorcycle engines in them. Not so many in the USA, but in Europe and some other areas. I don't do it because I'm a bit of a purist and don't like the unnecessary weight. However, there is a significant number of people who race successfully on a global level. They are rarely in the front of the pack on standings but are usually not at the back either. If they can stay with the pack on a world class race, then it can't be too bad.

The advice I got from the more successful guys I talked to is this:


Don't modify the engine or transmission any more than you have to.
If the engine unbolts from the transmission, then go ahead and do it. You may need to plug up some oil journals. However, if your engine and transmission are the same chassis, it's not worth the effort. (this in hovercraft racing, where weight is much more critical than in cars)
A chain coupling on the output gear works best, because you just hook it up and you're done, it could be an engine right out of the bike. That's for chain drives. The shaft drive ones are sometimes more difficult, but you can usually harvest the drive shaft as well to get the spline to either modify on model a new shaft on.
Find the appropriate gear and leave it there. On a hovercraft, the prop acts exactly like a torque converter on an automatic transmission.

Regarding just disconnecting the clutch while in EV mode, that's probably not a good idea. Most motorcycle manufacturers recommend that you put the bike in neutral while stopped to prevent clutch wear. Bikes use a special motor oil with grit in it because they use a wet clutch. That means the engine, transmission and clutch are all bathed in the same oil. The clutch needs some grit to make it work. Even when the plates are loose, the grit is still there.

Regarding magnetic clutches, I know somebody who tried to make one work on a lift fan for a hovercraft and was dissatisfied with the results. It tended to slip, and when the clutch fails it generally disconnects power entirely so you can't get back home. Magnetic clutches are either normally open or normally closed, so in one mode they constantly suck power.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

clutch slip is what I was afraid of also on the magnetic clutch. it has been proposed to use a heavy duty magnetic clutch and that would be a great solution if it worked, but just a little slip would make it unworkable.

The ninja powerband is very high, in the 14,000 range and it is most efficient there. I know that sounds high, but these little buggers run 50 to 60 thousand miles turning these high rpm's. and if it does blow after 10,000 miles, just spend a coupe hundred and buy a new one. all hail the japanese bike builders.
I dont think that the clutch being in neutral will work either. It would be llike pulling a car behind an RV without the drive shaft disconnected. I think it would wear out rather quickly. just guessing though, i'm often wrong. 

thanks for the info hovercraft guy. good stuff. great ideas guys! this is what I had hoped for from this forum.


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## Electric_Rav (Aug 11, 2008)

Couple hundred for a replacement engine? Where can I buy one? 

Magnetic clutch? If I tried that I was going to use a double set of neodymium magnets. One set on the motor side and the other set on the transmission side and then mount the ICE engine and the electric motor on independent slip plates which would allow them to move close to or further away from their corresponding set of magnets eliminating the need for electromagnets. (I'm just thinking out loud). I have no idea if this would work but I'm going to the surplus outlet in a couple of weeks and I'll pick up some magnets and test with them.

I'm glad someone chimed in with the fact motorcycle transmissions don't like to be turned when in neutral or when the clutch is disengaged. I probably would have found out the hard way.


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## jonescade (Jul 9, 2008)

Electric Rav yes, that is exactly why I came here in the first place. every possible mistake I can avoid will make the EV more affordable for a poor boy such as myself. For the ninja 250 engine, try motorcycle salvage yards. Ebay is a possiblity but they are selling in the 300 to 500 range and sometimes do not have carbs. the carbs might cost nearly as much as the engine if they are in good shape. be sure to buy one with the carbs and accessories attached. Craigslist is where I find the best deals. I've bought engines for as little as 200 dollars there, And just missed a nonrunning ninja that had been down that went for 350. Try the craigslist areas around you as well. Might save big money for an hour drive. Also, try insurance salvage. sometimes you can find one that is too torn up for anyone to bother trying to repair but the engine is still good. Call around and gee whiz a few folks. I"ve found that people are really interested in folks building electric cars and are sympathetic to paying high gas prices. I've been getting stuff free that way.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Buy the whole bike if you can, before it ever gets to the scrap yard. Insurance salvage yards are great for that. That way you get everything you need to make the engine run.

I know somebody who bought a car engine for a hovercraft for $200, then had to spend $600 for a computer to make it work. He could have got the whole car for $300 and it worked.


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