# [EVDL] seating brushes



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm spinning my motor on 12V to seat the brushes. I've heard to do this =
for 8 hours. Do you want to do this until the complete brush end is cont=
oured to the armature? My brushes still have ~1/16th of an inch on the e=
dges that do not touch the armature. Keep going?

Thanks,
Chris
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was taught to shape first with "Crocus cloth strips slightly wider than
the length of the brushes. Loop the strip of cloth abrasive side toward the
brush and pull first one end then the other to shape the brush face to very
close to the shape of the commutator then do the other brushes also,
Finally run the motor after blowing out all loose dust with a can of "Air"
run it with 12 volts for about 16 hiurs, then reinstall it if it was
removed and avoid more than 1/3rd of typical current for a hundred miles of
driving and visually check for the deposit of a grey band of carbon as the
armature is buffed down by the rubbing brushes and the current transfer.
if it is fairly uniform,(NO darker or lighter banding ) then blow out the
dust again paying special attention to the groves between the segments of
the commutator. and go drive (If there are strong black and light rings,
shape the brushes again and buff the commutator the same way but with the
cloth turned to abrasive toward the commutator segments) then repeat the
seating 16 hours on 12 volts and continue.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Founder)
*"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
*[ the Forgotten Infrastructure ]*

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There is "seating" and there is "shaping". Shaping gets the brush face
> > exactly matched to the commutator. Seating conditions the brush face thru
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 18 May 2012 at 16:55, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > shape first with Crocus cloth ... after blowing out all loose dust
> > ... run it with 12 volts for about 16 hours... avoid more than 1/3rd of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not sure on dc motors but on mw sized slip ring drives for ball mills we
install the new brushes and run glass paper of 300 grade between the brush
and slip ring with rough side to the brush. We slidd the paper along back
and fourth and within minutes the brushes are shaped to the slip ring



> On 19 May 2012 08:03, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> On 18 May 2012 at 16:55, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> >> shape first with Crocus cloth ... after blowing out all loose dust
> >> ... run it with 12 volts for about 16 hours... avoid more than 1/3rd of
> >> typical current for a hundred miles of driving ... check for the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why not tape a piece of brush width sandpaper to the commutator long enough
to go around 1-1/2 times around and spin the motor with a drill? In my case
do one motor while running the other motor. Take the sandpaper off and then
run it for a day to break them in.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Ev Performance (Robert Chew)
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 6:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes

Not sure on dc motors but on mw sized slip ring drives for ball mills we
install the new brushes and run glass paper of 300 grade between the brush
and slip ring with rough side to the brush. We slidd the paper along back
and fourth and within minutes the brushes are shaped to the slip ring



> On 19 May 2012 08:03, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> On 18 May 2012 at 16:55, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've done this before.

Two caveats -
1) Need to make sure everything is clean of sandpaper grit.

2) Some sandpaper grits are conductive.

Regards



> Mark Grasser <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Why not tape a piece of brush width sandpaper to the commutator long enough
> > to go around 1-1/2 times around and spin the motor with a drill? In my case
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the recognition Lee, I learned to seat brushes in the USAF
rebuilding Motor Generators with a dc motor on 6 Volts spinning the motor
and a Generator built intertwined in the same armature and field coils but
separate commutator putting out 250 v dc for the "B+" of a Military Radio
circa 1940's style, and still in use into 1960'5 during my tour of SE Asia.
New brushes, bearings, some crocus cloth and a sealed package from 1943
which made them as fresh as some of the prepackaged rations in tin cans we
ate during Typhoons.
We were pretty primitive working in the field near the DMZ in S.Korea even
in 1968. But I helped keep the training squadrons of F-4 Phantoms flying to
train the ROC pilots "close air support" and I wore many hats back then as
Ssgt. Miles of the USAF. (Men's lives depended upon our work some days.) 
Regards, Dennis Miles

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 5/20/2012 6:14:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the recognition Lee, I learned to seat brushes in the USAF
> rebuilding Motor Generators with a dc motor on 6 Volts spinning the motor
> and a Generator built intertwined in the same armature and field coils but
> separate commutator putting out 250 v dc for the "B+" of a Military Radio
> circa 1940's style, and still in use into 1960'5 during my tour of SE 
> Asia.
> New brushes, bearings, some crocus cloth and a sealed package from 1943
> which made them as fresh as some of the prepackaged rations in tin cans we
> ate during Typhoons.
> We were pretty primitive working in the field near the DMZ in S.Korea 
> even
> in 1968. But I helped keep the training squadrons of F-4 Phantoms flying 
> to
> train the ROC pilots "close air support" and I wore many hats back then as
> Ssgt. Miles of the USAF. (Men's lives depended upon our work some days.) 
> Regards, Dennis Miles
> 
> F-4 ECM ,Ubon Thailand 1972 Dennis Berube




> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/seating-brushes-tp4644528p4647595.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have done _exactly_ that, on a non-EV motor (motor-gen setup for speed co=
ntrol on an old Monarch lathe).
- Steven ciciora



________________________________
From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <[email protected]> =

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes
=

Why not tape a piece of brush width sandpaper to the commutator long enough
to go around 1-1/2 times around and spin the motor with a drill? In my case
do one motor while running the other motor. Take the sandpaper off and then
run it for a day to break them in.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Ev Performance (Robert Chew)
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 6:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes

Not sure on dc motors but on mw sized slip ring drives for ball mills we
install the new brushes and run glass paper of 300 grade between the brush
and slip ring with rough side to the brush. We slidd the paper along back
and fourth and within minutes the brushes are shaped to the slip ring



> On 19 May 2012 08:03, "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> On 18 May 2012 at 16:55, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David Roden, In my personal opinion, after teaching my wife to drive
electric on a dc motored vehicle and then seeing her use the accelerator as
a hill holder on a slight upgrade at a traffic light, then smelling the
teletale odor of cooked commutator,(ops forgot to explain that to her) she
received a lesson on using the brake pedal to prevent rollback. and I had
the commutator rebult at the local motor shop. AC motors do not use
commutattors, and aparently reduuction in replacements for "Cooked"
commutators makes the AC motors a viable choice. but they are still
"Pricey" in single unit purchasses. One thing I have found too many times,
as a friend once told me,"You cain"t teach Home Folk !" So I sent my son to
a public driving school.


Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Founder)
*"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
*[ the Forgotten Infrastructure ]*
*[email protected] <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *
(Adviser)* EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 18 May 2012 at 16:55, Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

IMHO, the 'cooked comm bar' scenario and the lack of 'engine braking'
(translated to regen with AC drive) are two big reasons that OEMs
don't use DC drives.



> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David Roden, In my personal opinion, after teaching my wife to drive
> > electric on a dc motored vehicle and then seeing her use the accelerator =
> as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > David Roden, In my personal opinion, after teaching my wife to drive
> > electric on a dc motored vehicle and then seeing her use the accelerator =
> as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee, I have heard that if we all went back to stick shifts and clutches, we
might save up to 20% of the fuel we consume because of the losses inherent
in an automatic and its torque converter as set up for city drivers,
(Racers might do better...) that is why I am a fan of the "EV Glide"
transmission with out the torque converteras they describe on their web
page,The only inhibiting factor is the intensity with which they like their
work (High Price) perhaps one of these days I will write them a check then
my friends will all be jealous. LOL, LOL.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
*[email protected]*
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. *
*more info on Web; *
* WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechn=
icalinstitute.com/>
*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dennis Miles wrote:
> > > David Roden, In my personal opinion, after teaching my wife to drive
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The 1990s Chrysler and Peugeot electric cars used brushed, DC, sepex motors. Sepex can do regen. Sepex also can be less likely to cook a brush -- you can get more torque from raising field current without cranking way up on the commutator current. A sophisticated controller could guard against overcurrenting a comm bar. Of course, AC is another (and apparently superior in the OEM minds) solution.



________________________________
From: lektwik <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes

IMHO, the 'cooked comm bar' scenario and the lack of 'engine braking'
(translated to regen with AC drive) are two big reasons that OEMs
don't use DC drives.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> > Lee, I have heard that if we all went back to stick shifts and clutches, we
> > might save up to 20% of the fuel we consume because of the losses inherent
> > in an automatic and its torque converter as set up for city drivers
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Many do.... but many still don't seem to. And, the ones with the locking
torque converters, how much are they locked in city driving? On the new
subarus I can feel when it locks and unlocks, and in the city it's probably
unlocked half the time.

Not that stop and go city driving is efficient by any measure.........

Z



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dennis Miles wrote:
> > > Lee, I have heard that if we all went back to stick shifts and clutches,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Unlike IC, with electric, would there ever be a reason for it to have to 
unlock?

Dan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes


> Many do.... but many still don't seem to. And, the ones with the locking
> torque converters, how much are they locked in city driving? On the new
> subarus I can feel when it locks and unlocks, and in the city it's 
> probably
> unlocked half the time.
>
> Not that stop and go city driving is efficient by any measure.........
>
> Z
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Dennis Miles wrote:
> >> > Lee, I have heard that if we all went back to stick shifts and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have no problem using a automatic that is converted to a manual shift 
using a manual valve body design for torque, not rpm which is control by the 
engine. You do not need any extra external controls to operated this type of 
transmission which is a GM-TH400.

My WarP 11 motor has the sweet spot at 1800, so I chose a torque converter 
that locks up at 1700 rpm. A torque converter has about a 1.8:1 ratio where 
at 1 rpm, it is 1.8 and at 1700 rpm it is 1.0:1 which is lock up rpm.

With my old manual transmission, the maximum overall ratio was at about 19:1 
in first gear, which I needed to pull a 7000 EV up steep residential 
streets.

With the auto-manual transmission, the maximum overall ratio is now about 
27:1 in first gear. I use first to start moving and now can stay in 2nd 
gear that has a overall ratio of 16:1 going up the same steep hill. With the 
manual transmission, the 2nd gear had a overall ratio of 13:1.

As the rpm increases, the overall ratio in 2nd gear reduces to 9:1 pulling 
the same or even less motor amperes. Can stay in 2nd gear at 9:1 to 55 mph 
if I want to. I now can shift to 3rd gear which has a overall ratio of 
5.57:1 for the first time at 27 mph at the 1800 rpm sweet spot, drawing 
about the same motor ampere in 2nd gear with the old manual.

This set up is also a safety item for me. What do you do when you have to 
stop on a steep hill with a roll of vehicles behind you? You have to hold 
the EV with the brake and time it right to let up on the brake and push the 
accelerator. Just hope your vacuum boost braking systems does not give out. 
I change this to a hydro-boost braking which works great 100% of the time.

Many times I may roll back a bit. I also notice the motor amps may go to 
about 600 amps right at start up.

Do not get this with the manual-automatic. I do not even have to push the 
accelerator to keep the EV from moving. Just give it a little bit of 
accelerator to keep up the pump pressure in the torque converter. This 
takes about 300 to 500 motor rpm and the motor ampere may range from 30 to 
50 ampere to hold the vehicle.

Instead of trying to hold the motor rpm steady, I install a on-dash idle 
switch which switches in resistance in series with the accelerator circuit 
which allows the motor to idle at 300 rpm.

I also use this idle control switch after a long stop on a flat grade, so 
when the EV starts to move giving me a soft start and the motor ampere surge 
is not as great then with my manual.

My normal daily drive over the exact route will have a AH usage of 3.4 to 
3.6 ah with the automatic. With the old manual, it would range from 3.6 to 
4.0 ah.

This GM-TH400 was converted by tci.com. It also have a PUSH-START option. 
Unlike a ICE that rolls down hill where the rpm is kept at a idle to run the 
accessories. I can turn off the idle on a down hill run and let the motor 
free wheel under no power. With out the PUSH-START the motor would 
disengage from the transmission thus will have no REGEN braking action.

Roland

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes


> Many do.... but many still don't seem to. And, the ones with the locking
> torque converters, how much are they locked in city driving? On the new
> subarus I can feel when it locks and unlocks, and in the city it's 
> probably
> unlocked half the time.
>
> Not that stop and go city driving is efficient by any measure.........
>
> Z
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Dennis Miles wrote:
> > > > Lee, I have heard that if we all went back to stick shifts and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The rotational inertia of most motors is so low if yiu are using an
automatic with bands and planetary gears there is simply no need for a
torque converter. See "EV Glide" for a well documented automatic for EV
conversion. (Yes I like their concept, but, they seem to like holding on to
them {Price is high.} )
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
*[email protected]*
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. more info
on Web; WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 5/23/2012 11:12 AM, clarke1 wrote:
> > > Unlike IC, with electric, would there ever be a reason for it to have to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dennis,

Try the automatic without a torque converter by using a torque tube that is 
bolted directly to the motor coupler. The torque tube has external splines 
that allows a forward and back movement in a spline coupler which a flex 
wheel does. This torque tube replaces the torque converter.

This works fine if you are driving on level grades, but you are still trying 
to hold the EV on a hill with brakes only and have the motor turning at a 
low rpm to keep the oil pressure at the right psi to hold the EV on a hill. 
Had to time it just right to bring up the transmission oil pressure to the 
right psi while letting up on the brake. I still get a high motor amp surge 
just like in my manual transmission.

According to the transmission people, you do not want the transmission oil 
pressure high all the time which happens while acceleration which is about 
180 psi. After acceleration the psi comes back to about 80-100 psi.

Drag racers uses a on shift switch that turns on a external pump to increase 
to maximum psi of 180 psi or more during there run, and then shut it down at 
the end of the run or you will blow the seals.

I had there shop modified the front pressure pump for a external oil pump. 
It work fine if I bring up the motor rpm very slowly to about 300 rpm which 
will start to move the EV. You do not use the neutral gear, place it in 
gear first before you push the accelerator.

If I bring up the rpm to fast or go over 300 rpm, then the drive train will 
go BAM. Not good if you are park between two cars. So I remove the torque 
tube and install a torque converter design for the weight of the EV and the 
lock on rpm right at the sweet spot of the motor.

It is now a very soft start, and can push the accelerator harder for a 
faster take off at un-control intersections.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] seating brushes


> The rotational inertia of most motors is so low if yiu are using an
> automatic with bands and planetary gears there is simply no need for a
> torque converter. See "EV Glide" for a well documented automatic for EV
> conversion. (Yes I like their concept, but, they seem to like holding on 
> to
> them {Price is high.} )
> Regards,
> *Dennis Lee Miles* (863)944-9913 (call noon to midnight Eastern time)
> *[email protected]*
> *+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
> *Offering a 12 day class July 9 to 21, 2012 in Central Florida. more info
> on Web; 
> WWW.ElectricVehicleTechnicalinstitute.COM<http://www.electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com/>
> *
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 5/23/2012 11:12 AM, clarke1 wrote:
> > > > Unlike IC, with electric, would there ever be a reason for it to have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From Seating Brushes to Automatic Transmissions. Just Great 

-----
http://onegreenev.blogspot.com/
No need to wait any longer. You can now buy one off the shelf. You can still build one too. 
--
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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