# Negative Pulse Charging Batteries



## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Does applying Negative Pulse's during the Charging cycle result in a faster charge and deeper capacity from the Lead Acid Battery?

GM says NO after a study in 1971.



> *Negative Pulse Charging: Myths and Facts *
> *Nasser Kutkut, Ph.D. - PowerDesigners, LLC - Madison, WI *​
> 
> Fast charging of industrial batteries is poised to become a main stream charging technology due to the operational savings and the increased productivity and safety that this technology offers. Users are realizing the benefits of fast charging as fast charge systems are already buzzing at manufacturing plants and distributions centers all around the US. ​
> ...


But other's say yes -​ 
Australian Dept Of Defense -​ 


> *Application of pulse charging techniques to submarine lead-acid batteries*​
> *Abstract*​
> The development of pulse charging equipment for the unique application to submarine lead-acid batteries is described. A prototype pulse charger has been developed and applied to individual twin-cell submarine batteries, plus a 20 twin-cell pulse charger has been commissioned at the battery manufacturing facility. *The paper provides a description of the pulse charging equipment and preliminary test results and analyses using the prototype twin-cell pulse charger, based on application of a range of positive and negative pulse parameters. The tests so far indicate potential benefits may arise from this form of charging, including enhancement of battery charge levels, reduced gas charging (Stage 3) times and reduced gas evolution rates.*​
> Link - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e&searchtype=a​


 
A paper published by the Institute Of Electronic And Electrical Engineers say yes -​ 


> *Research on Fast Charge Method for Lead-Acid Electric Vehicle Batteries*​
> 
> *Abstract*​
> Electric vehicle (EV) is environment friendly and high efficient. But the shortages of traction battery limited the rapid development of EV. Battery as a key part of EV has aroused lots of engineers to explore the management method and fast charge method is a key technology of battery management for electric vehicle. Constant current-constant voltage (CC-CV) and multistage constant current-constant voltage (MCC-CV) are two traditional charging ways. According to the dynamic circuit model of Lead-acid battery and fast charge theory, on the basic of CC-CV and MCC-CV method, explored the fast charge method for Lead-acid battery of electric vehicle. Compare experiment result of the fast charge method and traditional method. The two major parameters like temperature rise and the capacity-time ratio are considered in order to compare the result.* Lots of experiment result support that the negative pulse could eliminate the polarization effective. The MCC-CV with negative pulse method proves working efficient and practical.*​
> ...


 
Anyone have any thoughts, idea's or information about this?

Personally, I believe it works.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Maybe it's better you don't mix 'negative pulse charge' and 'pulse charging', it makes more sense.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

gottdi said:


> However the paper stated that it used negative or tiny discharge between charge pulses. What about just pulsing without using a tiny discharge pulse between pulses. What I gather is that the pulsing dumps in a large high amperage pulse and then is allowed to sit for just a moment before the next pulse is applied. No discharging involved. This is supposed to allow you to push high amperage into the battery while keeping things cool and since lithiums are good at taking in high amperage charging it might just be a benefit for fast charging lithiums LiFePo4 cells.
> 
> Pete


Cheers Pete.

So could that strategy help to recuperate more energy during regen breaking?

I'm not sure what comes out of the motors when switched to regen, is it steady state current? If that was converted to high voltage pulses then maybe regen can be made more efficient?


Edit: A point about GM testing and their honesty - I saw an interview with the head of GM research and a BBC reporter. The reporter asked, why GM was not building engines with greater efficiency than 25mpg back in the 90's. Citing that at the time GM said they couldn't do it. The head of research responded that at the time they could do it, but decided they didn't want to change their economic model, so they didn't do it. Effectively, they lied at the time when they said that they couldn't do it.

So should we believe everything that GM says?


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Jan said:


> Maybe it's better you don't mix 'negative pulse charge' and 'pulse charging', it makes more sense.


Well, the controversy appears to be exactly that - you do mix the charges.

A burst of positive charging energy, followed by a very short burst of negative voltage to dislodge the Hydrogen bubbles forming at the positive plate and help cool the battery before the next positive cycle.

Its been controversial since the GM study back in 1971.

As far as I'm aware, the idea that you can't fast charge a lead acid battery goes back to the 50's when they tried fast charging lead acids and got bent plates so concluded it couldn't be done.

is it feasible that with advances in manufacturing of batteries that the plates are not so susceptible to damage by fast charging?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Pi3141 said:


> Well, the controversy appears to be exactly that - you do mix the charges.


No, you mix the methodes. You post articles as if 'negative pulse charging' is the same as 'pulse charging'. They are different methodes and the articles are about one or the other. And you mix them up.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

gottdi said:


> But maybe ditch the negative discharge part and apply it to lithiums. Mmmmmmm! Yes? No? Maybe? If I had a charger like that I'd do the testing.
> 
> Pete


Yes absolutely. 

If pulse charging Lithiums 'positively' improves the charging time, then possibly not only do you get quicker recharge times but also capture more regen energy back if you chop the regen voltage to pulses before sending back to the battery.

Am I right in thinking a limitation to regen is the batteries ability to take in the power during braking?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> Am I right in thinking a limitation to regen is the batteries ability to take in the power during braking?


No, you would be wrong. I experience no limitations beyond the rubber to road.

And WTF is this crap about negative charging????? Come on.....get real. Current flows from positive to negative, or from negative to positive. You charge, or you discharge. End of story.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Jan said:


> No, you mix the methodes. You post articles as if 'negative pulse charging' is the same as 'pulse charging'. They are different methodes and the articles are about one or the other. And you mix them up.


No I don't think I am, I'm a bit confused by your response.

I've posted articles with opposing views on the same method.

The method is to use a short duration negative pulse or discharge period during a recharge cycle. 

In other words, either - 

Apply a short duration Negative Pulse periodically during a standard trickle charge cycle.

Or

Use Positive Pulse charging and occasionally apply a short duration 'Negative Pulse' in between the 'Positive Pulse'

I am simply asking if anyones knows anything about the method of utilising Negative Pulse or short discharge period to improve efficiency of charging.

I have posted articles 'For' and 'Against' as examples of the practice.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> No, you would be wrong. I experience no limitations beyond the rubber to road.


Ok, so the batteries are capable of taking all the energy produced during regen braking. I didn't know that.



major said:


> And WTF is this crap about negative charging????? Come on.....get real. Current flows from positive to negative, or from negative to positive. You charge, or you discharge. End of story.


 
Ok, I merely used the same terminology as the papers I cited, but lets put it another way.

Short discharge period during the charge cycle.

Apparently it dislodges the Hydrogen bubbles that build up and helps to cool the battery.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I saw something about micro cycling of batteries do to the pulses of charging . this was said to shorten the battery life do to cycles count .


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> Ok, so the batteries are capable of taking all the energy produced during regen braking. I didn't know that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


O.K. So I don't get you. What do you have? A bunch of babble. Nothing of any value. Please just go away.

Cheers,

major


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> O.K. So I don't get you. What do you have? A bunch of babble. Nothing of any value. Please just go away.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> major


WTF? 

I don't see what your problem is - I am bringing research to your attention - you don't like the research fine, insult the researchers not me.

If you don't know anything about the topic then just stay out of it.

Do you understand what a Negative Pulse is?

Do you understand they exist?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> WTF?
> 
> I don't see what your problem is - I am bringing research to your attention - you don't like the research fine, insult the researchers not me.


What does it do for the Joe-6-pack diy EV builder? Besides sell him your line of BS?

We have the NewsBot, thank you very much. 

What is your game?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> If you don't know anything about the topic then just stay out of it.
> 
> Do you understand what a Negative Pulse is?
> 
> Do you understand they exist?


O.K. Maybe I don't know as much about EVs and battery charging as you do. But I am familiar with Ohm's and Kirchoff's laws. I think that may outweigh you


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> What is your game?


 
My line of BS?

Whatever.
 
It simply is not worth my time to discuss this with you.

You insult me for supplying information from other sources as if that research is my own, and is unsubstantiated 'babble'.

The title of the papers clearly show that improving the recharge process and life of batteries is beneficial for Electric vehicles - if you can't work out why that is useful knowledge to people that own or build EV's then that is your problem.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> O.K. Maybe I don't know as much about EVs and battery charging as you do. But I am familiar with Ohm's and Kifchoff's laws. I think that may outweigh you


You've changed your tune.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> But I am familiar with Ohm's and Kirchoff's laws. I think that may outweigh you


Well if we're going take our dicks out and see which one is bigger - 

I studied the Bachelor of Engineering Power Systems module at Liverpool John Moores University while doing my Bsc and I studied Electronics from National Diploma Level under the man who wrote the book on Electronics for BTEC ND & HND syllabus here in the UK. 

So do you outweigh me?

If you do, why don't you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> So do you outweigh me?


You can't even read. I did not say I outweigh you. I said Ohm and Kirchoff did.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> If you do, why don't you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?


And I thought I did enlighten you on the subject of regeneration.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> I studied the Bachelor of Engineering Power Systems module at Liverpool John Moores University while doing my Bsc and I studied Electronics from National Diploma Level under the man who wrote the book on Electronics for BTEC ND & HND syllabus here in the UK.


So if you're so smart and this is such a great idea, why not draw a simple diagram for us yanks so we can go further in our EVs?

And hey, no hard feelings. Give me a hard time please 

Cheers,

major


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> You can't even read. I did not say I outweigh you. I said Ohm and Kirchoff did.


No you said 



major said:


> O.K. Maybe I don't know as much about EVs and battery charging as you do. But I am familiar with Ohm's and Kirchoff's laws. *I think that may outweigh you*


If you meant that Ohm and Kirchoff outweigh me then you sould have said that.



major said:


> And I thought I did enlighten you on the subject of regeneration.


Yes you did. Then you insulted me and told me to go away.



major said:


> And hey, no hard feelings. Give me a hard time please
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> major


Oh, so no hard feelings, but you can insult me, tell me to go away and then ask me not to give you a hard time.

Seems a bit one sided too me.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> WTF?
> 
> I don't see what your problem is - I am bringing research to your attention


Hey Pi,

You know, I think I may have confused negative pulse with free energy which these idiots keep coming around here trying to shove down our throats. I am sorry. 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> If you meant that Ohm and Kirchoff outweigh me then you sould have said that.


Yes, we are separated by a common language. And I was not precise.



> Then you insulted me and told me to go away.


Like the way I treat the idiots who come around with the free energy crap. I apologize. 

Now, why in the world a negative charge pulse not simply be a discharge? You got two directions of current. Charge and discharge. You call it something else. And I smell a rat. Oops, there I go again. Sorry. I meant I don't understand why the need to reinvent terminology.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> Oh, so no hard feelings, but you can insult me, tell me to go away and then ask me *not* to give you a hard time.


No, actually I asked you to give me a hard time.


major said:


> Give me a hard time please


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> Hey Pi,
> 
> You know, I think I may have confused negative pulse with free energy which these idiots keep coming around here trying to shove down our throats. I am sorry.
> 
> major


No problem, I've calmed down a bit now. But I can't believe the hostility on this forum.

I did post on the Renaissance chargers and the Free energy threads - but this is not about that. 

I did not reinvent the terminology GM tested 'Negative Pulse charging' and the other studies I cited talked about 'Negative Pulse' it is, in reality, merely a short discharge period during the recharge period. I simply used their terminology.

The Renaissance chargers talk about Negatively charging a battery and from what I understand this is not so outlandish but according to one research engineer I spoke with (another colleague) he was not at all surprised when i mentioned 'Negatively Charged' batteries with deeper capacity, but he commented that such a battery may be mistaken as having a gain (free energy) when really it is an expected result - I can not get my head round that. 

But this thread is not about that. 

I have been careful to seperate them and only post credible sources regarding 'Negative Pulse' charging. Call it what you will.

It is a technique known about since the 70's.

By the looks of those papers it would appear it is worth looking into.

Gottdi mentioned true 'Pulse Charging' for Lithium's again, probably well worth looking into.

For me, battery technology has not been developed as fast as other technologies so maybe there is something from the past that was looked at and previously dismissed that may be worth looking into again.

I merely bring this to your attention as obviously anyone running an EV should welcome improvements to recharge times and extended battery life.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> No, actually I asked you to give me a hard time.




Yes ok, I thought you meant the other.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> For me, battery technology has not been developed as fast as other technologies so maybe there is something from the past that was looked at and previously dismissed that may be worth looking into again.


You have to be kidding me. Battery technology is a huge industry worldwide with vast amounts going into R & D with the old school Pb-acid technology as well as advanced chemistries of all types. I have been involved with batteries for like 3 decades. I have seen a lot of schemes come and go. And I have to believe every idea with an ounce of merit is explored to the full extent because the rewards of even a one percent improvement would be so great considering the vast amount of energy stored in batteries every day. 

If you have knowledge of a way to improve charge efficiency why screw around with me here on this web site? Prove it to the world, become rich and save the planet


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> I have been involved with batteries for like 3 decades. I have seen a lot of schemes come and go. And I have to believe every idea with an ounce of merit is explored to the full extent because the rewards of even a one percent improvement would be so great considering the vast amount of energy stored in batteries every day.


So have you not come across 'Negative Pulse' charging as described in the papers I posted before?



> *Research on Fast Charge Method for Lead-Acid Electric Vehicle Batteries*​
> Abstract​
> Electric vehicle (EV) is environment friendly and high efficient. But the shortages of traction battery limited the rapid development of EV. Battery as a key part of EV has aroused lots of engineers to explore the management method and fast charge method is a key technology of battery management for electric vehicle. Constant current-constant voltage (CC-CV) and multistage constant current-constant voltage (MCC-CV) are two traditional charging ways. According to the dynamic circuit model of Lead-acid battery and fast charge theory, on the basic of CC-CV and MCC-CV method, explored the fast charge method for Lead-acid battery of electric vehicle. Compare experiment result of the fast charge method and traditional method. The two major parameters like temperature rise and the capacity-time ratio are considered in order to compare the result.* Lots of experiment result support that the negative pulse could eliminate the polarization effective. The MCC-CV with negative pulse method proves working efficient and practical.*
> 
> ...





major said:


> If you have knowledge of a way to improve charge efficiency why screw around with me here on this web site? Prove it to the world, become rich and save the planet


This is not my knowledge, although I have some evidence based on the experience of others who have experimented. I would love to become rich and save the planet but it seems there are many people way ahead of me on this one - people with published papers that I am only just now reading about.

I am simply posting the theory as it does not seem to have been discussed here on this forum at all (I've done a search and found no mention of it)

If you've been involved with battery's for decades surely you must have come across this theory before?

If you have not come across this theory before, how can you, with decades experience in batteries, be sure that all ideas with an ounce of merit have been thoroughly investigated?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> If you have not come across this theory before, how can you, with decades experience in batteries, be sure that all ideas with an ounce of merit have been thoroughly investigated?


I am by no means sure of that, but I am sure I am through with you.



Pi3141 said:


> *Aviso's on-board generator which harvests ambient energy from the surroundings, the motor ran at 133% efficiency (overunity).*


You are one of those free energy guys I try to avoid. Sorry to have wasted your time, and mine


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

major said:


> You are one of those free energy guys I try to avoid. Sorry to have wasted your time, and mine


No problem.

You are aware this thread is not about free energy and that pulse charging - either positive or negative is real science.

You do not wish to contribute thats your choice.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Don't keep this nit picking going. If there is real proof then OK. If not OK. So what.
> Pete


Your post is fair enough 

But you say I am nit picking - No sorry.

I posted credible sources about a possible worthwhile subject that is pertinent to EV users. 

Its been other's who have been nit picking, I am therefore forced to answer otherwise you will use any silence against me - like 'he can't be bothered to answer he don't know shit'

So I have to answer and that has dragged out this discussion into the farce it has been.

Only you have actually addressed the subject with any useful information. 

So far 4 pages of crap.

Why don't people just address the question??

If they have nothing to contribute then don't contribute - the thread will just die.

Whats the big problem with opening up a discussion on new research anyway?


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I fully agree that it is not of enough benefit to implement. Business is business and in the end it is about money not that it works or not. It's just not enough benefit to be useful. *Truly if it were beneficial it would be used today*.


Just found these on Ebay - 

NEW GUNSON 4 Station Auto Battery Charger PULSE CHARGE

Manufacturers website 
Link - http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=660&item=3518



> This charger is Micro Processor controlled, switches automatically to Float mode and charges 20% faster than standard chargers.​
> Link - http://www.gunson.co.uk/items/pdf/Products/77027_instructions.pdf​


 

It will either use a float charge or a pulse charge if the battery is deeply discharged.​ 

*Waits quietly*​


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

There's also this lot 



> This *Intelligent High Frequency Pulse Charger* is suitable for all modern golf trolley 12v lead acid batteries. This is a fully automatic charger that allows you to leave your battery connected until the next time you need it. Unlike 2-Stage chargers, which must be disconnected after charging to guard against “cooking” your battery, this charger will switch itself off once the optimum charge is reached, then continue to “top up” the battery as required. The whole process is indicated by an LED light.
> 
> http://www.extralifepulse.com/pages/batterychargers.html


Website looks a bit amateur to me and they're battery life extender looks dubious.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

And this lot -



> PA-120 P Series - 120W Pulse Charge Open Frame Battery Charger
> 
> Link - http://www.sunpower-uk.com/products...e-Battery-Charger/PA-120-P-Series/default.htm


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

It would seem pulse chargers are coming on to the market.

Obviously there is a question about validating manufacturer's claims.


So, whats the argument going to be about now?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Whats left?*

Buy one 
Test it
Open it up to see whats inside 
Report back to Forum

You can then expect to have your testing regime critiqued - but people will listen to you


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Duncan said:


> *Whats left?*
> 
> Buy one
> Test it
> ...


Well thats a fair comment.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

I found more info - specifically regarding negative pulses while recharging batteries.



> FAST PULSE BATTERY CHARGER
> 
> Link - http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/sea...T+PULSE+BATTERY+CHARGER)&tab=PCT+Biblio.+Data


Some interesting extracts from the patent - 



> [0036] It is known that the charging efficiency of lead acid batteries, in particular, can be improved by partially discharging them while at the same time charging the battery, or as an initial step during a charging operation.
> 
> [0041 ] Still further, reverse pulses will planarize a surface, which will also have the effect of inhibiting zinc dendrite growth.
> 
> ...


Any comments on the specifics I have highlighted here from people knowledgable about battery's?


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Here's a forum dedicated to battery charging with a section specifically about Pulse Charging and Desulphation techniques using pulse circuits.



> Pulse Charging and Desulfation
> 
> Link - http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yuku.com/forums/3/Pulse-Charging-and-Desulfation?page=1


Some interesting quotes from the forum 



> Welcome to the Pulse Charging Forum!
> 
> This forum is long overdue. It was somewhat neglected due to the efforts being expended on inductive desulfation techniques.
> 
> ...





> Yes, you're on the right path. The very brief Inductive Discharge pulses are most benefical to the lead acid battery.





> As long as the pulse currents are high and the average current is safely low the battery would be efficiently charged, desulfated, equalized and destratified all at once.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Here's another Pulse charger from China



> Automatic Reverse Pulse Battery Charger 12V 24V 36V, 48V
> 
> Link - http://jlzg2010.en.made-in-china.co...se-Pulse-Battery-Charger-12V-24V-36V-48V.html


 


> *Product Description*
> Latest pulse technology.
> Different from the old fashined 3 stage Tech.
> Rapid charging and intelligent current control
> ...


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Pi3141 said:


> Here's another Pulse charger from China


The description seems to describe a standard pulse desulphator for lead-acid batteries. Those are common. Never heard it called a negative pulse though. I'm not too familiar with desulphating though.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Pi3141 said:


> No I don't think I am, I'm a bit confused by your response.


Can you understand the concept of pulse charging without 'negative' pulses? That a pulse can be continuasly positive, negative or booth?

Do you understand that 'negative pulses' is doublespeak for discharginging?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

In the '80's a lot of charging circuits for ni-cads and other types (even lithium) were published in electronics magazines, using something like this negative pulse technology. Basically it was just a cheap way to get a working charger, and never lived up to decent chargers. This debate reminds me of the letters columns of those same magazines, with some people defending it diligently and other saying it destroy batteries faster than it can charge it.

Just my 0.02.
Dawid


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Jan said:


> Can you understand the concept of pulse charging without 'negative' pulses? That a pulse can be continuasly positive, negative or booth?
> 
> Do you understand that 'negative pulses' is doublespeak for discharginging?


Yes. 

In post number 11, the same post where you took this quote from - 



Pi3141 said:


> No I don't think I am, I'm a bit confused by your response.


I stated - 



Pi3141 said:


> The method is to use a short duration negative pulse or* discharge period* during a recharge cycle.


And in the very next post, post number 12, in response to Major I stated this - 
　


Pi3141 said:


> Ok, I merely used the same terminology as the papers I cited, but lets put it another way.
> 
> *Short discharge period during the charge cycle.*


　
So in response to your question, yes, I do understand and I already explained it to both you and to another poster in consecutive posts.

So why are you asking me if I understand? 

Obviously you did not read my response to your question properly. 

So whats you point ?


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

MN Driver said:


> The description seems to describe a standard pulse desulphator for lead-acid batteries. Those are common. Never heard it called a negative pulse though. I'm not too familiar with desulphating though.


Yes, thats exactly right. 

The circuits are similar if not identical.

Its just that after desulphating a standard charger stops pulsing and moves into steady state charging, whereas the pulse charging technology continues pulsing but at a different voltage and current value in order to effect, what is 'claimed', a quicker recharge time.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Stop with all this nit picking.


Are you still saying I am nit picking?

Have you read this thread, have you seen how many times I have had to explain what a negative pulse is?



gottdi said:


> Go get these so called pulse chargers and do your testing against the current charger technology. Don't forget to use the best of the current and do side by side testing. Get a batch of the same type batteries and check voltages while charging and time to full. Then discharge each battery to the same level of charge and do the testing again. Do the testing 100 times at least to get a good average of what each can do. I'd wager that they all come in about the same. Be sure that you match chargers to the amp output too. Differing amp outputs can skew results. If your pulse charger charges at 50 amps then set your standard charger to the same. Also check temp as well.
> 
> Set your experiment up well and write up a hypothesis and then start.
> Get to it. You can be our neutral test bed of current pulse chargers vs the standard. Also include in the mix the old stand by dumb golf cart type charger.
> ...


Yes that is a very good idea and I would love to do that - care to stump up the cash?

But are you saying a technical discussion about a subject is pointless? 

I learnt quite a lot during my years in education attending lectures and discussing the concepts raised in those lectures in addition to the coursewok and experimentation. So I don't understand your insistence in dropping a discussion on an interesting subject that is pertinent to EV users?

If you can tell me that nobody here know's anything about recharging batteries and that recharging batteries in a shorter period is of no interest to anybody on this site then yes - I will see it as being pointless and drop the topic.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

DawidvC said:


> In the '80's a lot of charging circuits for ni-cads and other types (even lithium) were published in electronics magazines, using something like this negative pulse technology. Basically it was just a cheap way to get a working charger, and never lived up to decent chargers. This debate reminds me of the letters columns of those same magazines, with some people defending it diligently and other saying it destroy batteries faster than it can charge it.
> 
> Just my 0.02.
> Dawid


You may well be right, thanks for the input.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Pi3141 said:


> So whats you point ?


One last try: You post from questionable sites about 'negative pulse charging' and from less questionable sites articles about 'pulse charging' to support the claims of 'negative pulse charging'. The only not questionable article you posted about 'negative pulse charging' says it doesn't work. That's it for me.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Jan said:


> One last try: You post from questionable sites about 'negative pulse charging' and from less questionable sites articles about 'pulse charging' to support the claims of 'negative pulse charging'. The only not questionable article you posted about 'negative pulse charging' says it doesn't work. That's it for me.


Lol!

This is an easy one.
What claims have I made?

This one?
　


Pi3141 said:


> Personally, I believe it works.


Thats not a claim, its an opinion.


Secondly, I posted an article published by The Institute Of Electronic & Electrical Engineers in support of Negative Pulse charging.



> *Research on Fast Charge Method for Lead-Acid Electric Vehicle Batteries*
> *Publisher:* *IEEE, *Pages: 1-5
> 
> *Lots of experiment result support that the negative pulse could eliminate the polarization effective. The MCC-CV with negative pulse method proves working efficient and practical.*


　
P.S IEEE is the acronym for - The Institute Of Electronic & Electrical Engineers in case you did not know.

Personally I don't think the IEEE is a 'questionable' source, it doesn't mean papers published by them are always correct but they certainly are not a 'questionable source' as you put it. 
　
But if you don't want to listen to research presented by 'The Institute Of Electronic & Electrical Engineers' then that is your perogative. 

But I do wonder - who would you listen to if not the main governing body of Electrical and Electronics engineers?

No need to answer that. Although I'm sure it would be an entertaining answer.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

So is that all you got on this forum?

Insults, intimidation, an astounding ability to misread posts and a requirement to have simple electronic terms like 'Negative Pulse' to be explained at least 3 times before you get it?

Not to mention a complete inability by some to admit they misread or misunderstood.
　
Seriously? Thats all you got?

You got nothing.
　
I have now presented the theory with arguments both for and against, I've cited sources for the theory, and resources for further information as well as products coming onto the market. 

As far as I am concerned, that is a complete discussion. I see no reason to post further information on this topic unless I am asked questions or required to explain Negative Pulses again. Lol!
　
Only a few of you have actually been able to bring something to this discussion. 

I thank those that have - Gottdi thank you for your original input - it has given me food for thought at least.
　
　
Anyone reading this thread in its entirety, do not be put off posting by the intimidation - this is a public internet discussion forum and is supposed to be used as such. Stand your ground, the idiots will expose themselves.

I was once given some advice - there are no stupid questions in science. If you don't know - ask. There's no shame in it.




> Don't ever argue with fools, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I read it all. I don't really have any credible information to add. I understand what was said and the claim. I just don't see the point in pursuing this with much vigor actually. I think the point that was eluded to...is a discussion based on opinion by those who don't really know is nothing more than "typing yourself smart" as Jack would say. Lead-acid is just not the way to go...and it won't be long before it is pretty much discarded.

BTW, there is quite a bit of very useful information on this site. Give it another go!


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> The description seems to describe a standard pulse desulphator for lead-acid batteries. Those are common. Never heard it called a negative pulse though. I'm not too familiar with desulphating though.


So called pulse chargers whether "negative" or positive always work best with a real charger behind them charging the battery, go figure.

I do see pulse charging as a recovery method for poorly maintained batteries but not as a primary charging method.

I also have never seen a charge rate increase made possible by it.


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## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Well as a result of this thread I was contacted by the author of a NASA study into Negative or Burp charging techniques. He furnished me with a copy of his disertation. I'm posting the info in case anyone is interested.

Its posted here -



> INVESTIGATION OF THE RESPONSE OF NIMH CELLS TO BURP CHARGING
> A Dissertation Presented to the Faculty of the Department of Chemical Engineering University of Houston
> 
> Link - http://corsair.flugmodellbau.de/files/elektron/NASA-II.PDF


Its cited in another paper



> Advanced Battery Charging Techniques: Pulse-Charging in Large-Scale Applications – Design of Divide and Conquer Technique for High-Capacity Batteries
> 
> Tho Nguyen, Linda Bushnell
> Department of Electrical Engineering
> ...


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## HYPRDRV (Aug 20, 2009)

Some more data on Pulse charging LifePo4's

http://www.ri.cmu.edu/video_view.html?video_id=60&menu_id=387

Technical but a good listen. About 40 mins through he brushes over the fact that Pulse charging is better and extends the life of the battery based on the battery chemistry. Robotics Institute.

Steve


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## lifer (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm with @Pi3141 in this "quest".. actually, I've just registered to this forum to post this message (well, I've watched the forum for awhile but I had notihing to say till now  ). 

Well.. @Pi3141 has tried hard to explain the "negative pulse" concept but he failed (at least, for his "enemies" on this thread). 

Wise men say: "you have to spend money to make money". What is so hard to understand that a quick discharge could be a benefit for the entire charging process? Even it's just for eliminating those oxygen bubbles.. if that make the whole process running colder and faster, then that's a good practice. 

Why is such a "revolutionary" method not being used in car industry, by example? Well.. first, it is not so easy (aka cheap) to put such a charger (mixed positive and negative pulse) on a car where the only power source is the alternator. Second.. in these days, everything is for "consumers". No one wants you to have a car battery (or any other parts) which will last (almost) forever! There are huge economical interest that overcome any "revolutionary" facts..

So.. does anyone have any schematic for such a charger?! I really want to build one.. I've read alot about desulfation process (I'm building one right now) but it will be great if by using such a charger (negative pulse included) it won't be necessary to desulfate my batteries in the future. 

Thanks for listening and sorry for my english.  

Good luck, @Pi3141!


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## Hawks (Dec 12, 2012)

Pi3141 has done an excellent job informing us what this process is. It has definitely made me curious

What I have not seen is real predictions. It could work.... well okay, a potato "works" as a battery, but I don't think it's going to revolutionize the EV industry. Maybe I have skimmed over it, but did any of the sources make predictions?
-How much does it prolong battery life?
-How much does it speed up charges?

I think these are the things that would gain attention. Right now there are hundreds of theories and possibilities when it comes to EV technology, trying to get people motivated about every possibility is just hopeless


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