# AC50 for medium size car?



## Tedktis (Jan 20, 2012)

Would an AC50 power a 3,100 pound ICE vehicle easily? Say a Dodge Stealth? This is before I remove ICE parts. I am looking to get decent pu with lots of range using LiFePO4 batteries. Thoughts?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

You're talking about a 50hp *peak* system; expect to be outrun by grannies on their powered wheelchairs and kids on their push scooters.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. And by "50 HP peak" Jeff meant 74 HP peak and 110 ft/lbs torque, both measured at the wheel on a dyno. The package has a design peak of 104 HP. If all goes well, you might be able to overtake those granny scooters for sure.

JR


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hi. And by "50 HP peak" Jeff meant 74 HP peak and 110 ft/lbs torque, both measured at the wheel on a dyno. The package has a design peak of 104 HP. If all goes well, you might be able to overtake those granny scooters for sure.
> 
> JR


Oops... how on earth could I forget that EVTV episode??? 

Not going to write any more on this save to tell the OP to do more research because I refuse to get dragged into Yet Another Debate on AC vs. DC.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2012)

In a little Bug or VW based Kit car it would be fine. Other than that I'd go larger and DC. It would not be a race car even in a Bug or VW based Kit car but it would be a nice vehicle to drive. I have driven two of them. Both Jack Rickards and they do a very nice job. I have considered a set up like that for a small VW. But my Fat 11" Kostov keeps winning out. 

Pete


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

JRoque said:


> Hi. And by "50 HP peak" Jeff meant 74 HP peak and 110 ft/lbs torque, both measured at the wheel on a dyno. The package has a design peak of 104 HP. If all goes well, you might be able to overtake those granny scooters for sure.
> 
> JR


Can you elaborate on how that design peak might be achieved, and with what limitations? I have a short list of motors in mind for eventual conversion of my daily-driver Echo (note to OP: that's just more than half the weight of a full-up Stealth RT) and at 50 HP peak, the AC50 would be a marginal candidate. At 74HP, it's reasonable, and at 104HP it approaches the HP rating of the ICE in the Echo (which is 108 HP), which gives acceptable but not inspiring performance.

My daily commute involves a 50 MPH, 2 mile long, 7% grade, as well as some smaller hills, and I'm not going to convert my car into something that requires the hazard flashers to be on as I slug my way up the hill... this grade is also something for which regen bubbles up higher on the list of nice-to-haves.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

74 hp is enough to move a 3100 lbs car at over 80-90 mph, but imply slow acceleration.
Also, 74 is peak power... continous power of this small systems can't be enough to push some car continously at highway speed.




TigerNut said:


> At 74HP, it's reasonable, and at 104HP it approaches the HP rating of the ICE in the Echo (which is 108 HP), which gives acceptable but not inspiring performance.
> 
> My daily commute involves a 50 MPH, 2 mile long, 7% grade


 
108hp is peak power at 6000 rpm imply than an Echo only have 54hp availiable (or less in fact) at 3000 rpm.
So if you can cruise this 2 mile long, 7% grade at 3000 rpm, you will know than 54 hp is enough.

But watch to find if the curtis controller and the motor can offer enough continous power for this 2 miles hill.
Also, take care, my exemple imply same car weight before and after conversion.

By comparison, my 1800 lbs car can cruise at 60 mph with 17kw (battery side, estimate 19 motor hp), but need close to 30 Kw (estimate 33 hp) to climb a short hill.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Tedktis said:


> Would an AC50 power a 3,100 pound ICE vehicle easily? Say a Dodge Stealth? This is before I remove ICE parts. I am looking to get decent pu with lots of range using LiFePO4 batteries. Thoughts?


I have an AC50 with 1238-7501 in a 2260 lb vehicle with nominal 115V (36 cells) pack. It does 0 to 60 in 16 seconds. The 7601 controller would reduce that by around 2 seconds. That would mean around 22 seconds (for the 7501) for a 3100 lb car, but your car may weigh more after conversion depending on how large a battery pack you have. That is pretty sluggish acceleration.




TigerNut said:


> Can you elaborate on how that design peak might be achieved, and with what limitations? I have a short list of motors in mind for eventual conversion of my daily-driver Echo (note to OP: that's just more than half the weight of a full-up Stealth RT) and at 50 HP peak, the AC50 would be a marginal candidate. At 74HP, it's reasonable, and at 104HP it approaches the HP rating of the ICE in the Echo (which is 108 HP), which gives acceptable but not inspiring performance.
> 
> My daily commute involves a 50 MPH, 2 mile long, 7% grade, as well as some smaller hills, and I'm not going to convert my car into something that requires the hazard flashers to be on as I slug my way up the hill... this grade is also something for which regen bubbles up higher on the list of nice-to-haves.


 The 74 HP is for the 1238-7601 higher peak current controller and a 36 cell, nominal 115V pack. Peak power with the 7501 controller (what I have) is about 65 HP. The 7% grade would require about 260A and 34 H.P. for my car at 50 mph. Not sure where the 104 HP came from. The 65 HP number I gave is motor shaft power. The 74 HP was measured on a dyno, so power at the wheels. The max power input to the 7601 controller would be the product of 650A and 115V, or 100 H.P. The controller has a max input voltage of 130V, but of course you can't use a pack that has this rest voltage with it, and even if you did, it would sag considerably at 650A discharge current (so the 100 HP is an overestimate too). I did talk to someone who uses 38 cells with the 7501 (also max 130V), but you would have to be very careful with regen, and likely not charge the pack completely, so it wouldn't add much to the max 100 HP input. Realistically, the pack will likely sag to around 100 - 105V with 650A discharge current, so maybe 90 H.P. input. So like gotti said, works pretty well for a light car, not so well for heavier ones.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Yabert said:


> 74 hp is enough to move a 3100 lbs car at over 80-90 mph, but imply slow acceleration.
> Also, 74 is peak power... continous power of this small systems can't be enough to push some car continously at highway speed.
> 
> 
> ...


Good insights! I can just "cruise" the hill in fourth gear (and 1 passenger at most), assuming I get it up to 80 km/h before the steepest parts. In 3rd gear I can accelerate up the hill but of course the available power is higher then. The 1NZFE engine peaks at 108 HP at 6000 RPM, and torque peak is 104 ft-lb at 4200 RPM. At 2000-3000 RPM the torque is about 90-95 ft-lbs, according to the graph I found on the interwebs. Going to have to put a tach on the dash to see where I'm at in the various gear combinations.

Getting the good performance in this scenario will definitely require sizing the pack and cell types to support short bursts of peak performance without sagging too much.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tedktis said:


> Would an AC50 power a 3,100 pound ICE vehicle easily? Say a Dodge Stealth? This is before I remove ICE parts. I am looking to get decent pu with lots of range using LiFePO4 batteries. Thoughts?


In summary, 3100lbs+ may be too much for an AC-50 to deliver ICE-like performance in your dodge. You could...

(a) get two AC-50's and mate them at the shaft or via a belt drive (they can be purchased with dual shafts) (4300 * 2 = 8,600$)
220ftlbs & ~160hp

(b) go DC. Soliton1 (3K$) & Warp9 (1.8K$) = 4,800$
250ftlbs & ~160hp


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> In summary, 3100lbs+ may be too much for an AC-50 to deliver ICE-like performance in your dodge. You could...
> 
> (a) get two AC-50's and mate them at the shaft or via a belt drive (they can be purchased with dual shafts) (4300 * 2 = 8,600$)
> 220ftlbs & ~160hp


What about controllers?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

AC50's are matched already with a Curtis 1238 controller. I don't know of anyone using something else. That cost includes motor and controller. Check out the link in my sig for more info on the HPEVS systems.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

frodus said:


> AC50's are matched already with a Curtis 1238 controller. I don't know of anyone using something else. That cost includes motor and controller. Check out the link in my sig for more info on the HPEVS systems.


Let me rephrase. You'd need 2 curtis controllers, one for each motor, yes?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes that is correct. 1 motor per controller.

I've not seen anyone doing an EV use controller for two motors with AC.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

frodus said:


> Yes that is correct. 1 motor per controller.
> 
> I've not seen anyone doing an EV use controller for two motors with AC.


I concur, I have yet to see anyone use 1 controller with two motors with AC, even HPEVS doesn't on their super secret dual motor Jetta.

http://hpevs.com/on-road-conversions/jetta-project


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## Tedktis (Jan 20, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> In summary, 3100lbs+ may be too much for an AC-50 to deliver ICE-like performance in your dodge. You could...
> 
> (a) get two AC-50's and mate them at the shaft or via a belt drive (they can be purchased with dual shafts) (4300 * 2 = 8,600$)
> 220ftlbs & ~160hp
> ...


 
Thank you! That was something I had thought about, but wasn't sure.


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## Tedktis (Jan 20, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Oops... how on earth could I forget that EVTV episode???
> 
> Not going to write any more on this save to tell the OP to do more research because I refuse to get dragged into Yet Another Debate on AC vs. DC.


Doing the best I can to research.


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## Tedktis (Jan 20, 2012)

This is on Thunderstruck site;

This Kit features a Curtis 1238-7601 controller that operates at 72-108V and can draw up to 650A producing up to 67HP and 110ft-lbs of torque. This motor is a little longer than the AC-35 giving it a bit more power. This kit works very well in a *medium sized car*, small truck or large sail boat. *Standard programming allows for a 24Volt contactor and a 0-5K throttle*. Custom programming is available upon request, please give us a call or emial for details. 

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-50.html

What weight do they consider as medium size and small truck?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It won't burn rubber, but it'll do fine if you don't mind average acceleration.


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## Quinten (Jan 14, 2012)

Tedktis said:


> Would an AC50 power a 3,100 pound ICE vehicle easily? Say a Dodge Stealth? This is before I remove ICE parts. I am looking to get decent pu with lots of range using LiFePO4 batteries. Thoughts?


I have used an AC50 with a Curtis 1238 in a converted Citroen with a weight after conversion including driver of 1280 kg and the car is performing quite well, top speed around 115 kmh

and that with only 28 Calb cells...it will do better with 32 cells

However I need to swap this motor for an EMC certified one so I put it in Ebay the other day...if someone is interested ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...49&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123#ht_500wt_922


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