# EV air conditioning



## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Wow, it looks like you found the exact same model that they start with, all the way down to the plastic moldings. I think you're right, just add fittings to tie this system into the car's evaporator. All that's left is supplying sufficient 120VAC to the system.

Keep us posted...

Eric


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Would this run off the accessory battery? Do you have a DC/DC converter for it? Would that be able to run for any decent amount of time with pack batteries recharging the accessory battery then accessory battery going through another inverter? I sure would like A/C in my car, it gets hot here in Oklahoma, and I have a lot of window units....


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well the specs say that it runs at 4.5 amps but it needs 20amps for ten seconds to startup, so i am going to use a 1500 watt inverter with a serge of 3000watts, and that should run it, i will be changing my accessory battery to a deep cycle 105 amp hour and run the inverter from my accessory battery. it should work, I have to go to the wrecking yard and get the ac lines and take them to a line shop and have them adapted to fit the unit, but I will do that tomarrow, and if it all goes well, i will have ac on tuesday.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

billhac said:


> well the specs say that it runs at 4.5 amps but it needs 20amps for ten seconds to startup, so i am going to use a 1500 watt inverter with a serge of 3000watts, and that should run it, i will be changing my accessory battery to a deep cycle 105 amp hour and run the inverter from my accessory battery. it should work, I have to go to the wrecking yard and get the ac lines and take them to a line shop and have them adapted to fit the unit, but I will do that tomarrow, and if it all goes well, i will have ac on tuesday.


 
Lots of luck, cause you will need it.

Roy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Lots of luck, cause you will need it.
> 
> Roy


Care to expand on that with some actual information? I take it you don't think it will work?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I would even consider removing that fan to make the whole assembly smaller. Fan was required in a window unit, to remove the heat, but in a car with condenser mounted at the front grill, like all OEM AC units, the air flow should be sufficient to remove the heat without the fan. This will also save a little energy taken by the fan motor.

Overall approach should work fine, its ben done before. Ideally you'd want compressor with DC motor, but the only one on the market costs arm and a leg, so using AC driven unit with inverter should work just the same. It will put a decent load on your 12V battery, so you need to make sure it gets a good charge from DC-DC or a separate charger, depending on how you design your 12V system.

Good luck and keep the details coming, this thread would be a good WIKI addition for others to follow.


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## bliksem (Aug 3, 2009)

If you have problems starting the compressor with an inverter you can fit
a HARD START KIT which is available at most AC suppliers. It is basically just another capacitor you add to the existing cap. It is often used to start
stuck compressors. You might also be able to use a smaller inverter to run
the unit.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2010)

Nice, I got the pdf's from the Cool Blue versions and that looks great. A system like this could allow me to set up a neat little AC system in my VW. I will look forward to your work. I hope you do a complete built photo album for others to follow. That is a cheap way to have AC. Even a little is better than none. I even have a couple vacuum pumps too for evacuating the system before charging. 

Pete


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Care to expand on that with some actual information? I take it you don't think it will work?


Your working with an unknown match, all hvac system including auto a/c have to have a match between the consensing unit and evaporator unit. 

There are two types of metering systems, piston/orifice and expansion device. If piston/orifice device, you will need to know exactly what size in order to match the btu of the compressor to the btu of the evaporator. The better way is to use an expansion device, for it operates via evaporator temperature. But one still needs to have somewhat of a match, so superheat/subcool is in the ballpark of the condensing unit.

Also since you have an a/c system in motion, and the air going over the condenser is not at a constant rate, you need a low pressure control to modulate the compressor. And btw you WILL need a condensor fan motor, because if you get stuck in traffic or need to idle for a while, the system will overheat without a fan motor, in order to get the minimum amount of air over the condensor for removal of heat. You also need a high pressure control in case something goes wrong.

Not to mention advocating changing from R22 to R134A wich can bring another set of unknowns to the equation, for they operate on different saturation temps. Also if the compressor needs to be cycled due to the ever changing air over the condensor, it will be hard on the compressor, for it is not designed to cycle that many times, a hard start kit will be needed at a minimum.

I'm not saying it cant be done, what I'm telling is one better know something about refrigeration, in order to set stuff up correctly.

Yes it may work, the question is unless set up correctly......how long ??

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=nuwtTOOlCIH7lwfY1qjhCg&ved=0CDcQ9QEwAw

Roy


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

I find it interesting that there are so many naysayers about this approach when there are many EVers already using this exact kit (designed specifically for EV application).

I've rode in one local VW Golf owned by an NTEAA member which is equipped with this system, and by golly not only does it work, it works QUITE WELL.

He still does 40+ miles on a charge in the dead heat of Texas summers using this setup. This is the same setup I will use if I choose to keep AC in the S10.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Great input Roy. All this is needed to size up the project.

And all the more reason to document the project so once the trial/error/correction process has been completed, others can benefit from this inexpensive cooling apparatus.

billhac: Have at it! And let us know if you run into any of the anomalies Roy has specified. And above all, document it! 

Sounds like Roy will be a great information asset to this project.

Thanks for taking this project on, this smells like a winner to me!

Eric


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

TX_Dj said:


> I find it interesting that there are so many naysayers about this approach when there are many EVers already using this exact kit (designed specifically for EV application).
> 
> I've rode in one local VW Golf owned by an NTEAA member which is equipped with this system, and by golly not only does it work, it works QUITE WELL.
> 
> He still does 40+ miles on a charge in the dead heat of Texas summers using this setup. This is the same setup I will use if I choose to keep AC in the S10.


 
My post was not to be a naysayer, I'm giving you my professional opinion, cause I also have an electric vehicle, and was looking in to installing a/c also. In my younger years before airconditioning was a standard, I used to install aftermarket a/c units, fitted for the particular vehicle. But since those were matched systems, there was not much to contemplate over.

I'm also a hvac professional and been doing it close to 30 years, so I do have a little insight in to the subject. If anyone is thinking about an ev build, I would highly reccomend a dual shaft motor sized with a little extra power, and run a/c, vac pump, power steering etc from it, and set it up to idle x amount of rpm, to do just what the original ice did. This way you can use the original system.

There are also now dc variable speed compressors available that can adjust via temp sensors the speed of the compressor, so it adjust by demand. Many of these types are now being used in home a/c systems (mini splits) But this avenue may be too costly, and I havent realy looked in to such implementation.

If the system you mentioned worked, then that good, I was just informing as to the in's and out's of what one has to look for, in order to get such system to work properly. If you look at the link I provided and look at this system, and observing between the different states of the gases, you may understand a bit more of how it all works.

Roy


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Roy,

I wasn't picking on any single person from the respondents, and I'm not doubting your experience and knowledge.

I can't say that the installation I have first-hand experience with is optimal in efficiency, I'm sure it's far from it. But it was a very simple system to install.

If nothing else, the biggest problem is most likely with the difference in tubing/hose sizing between the car's system and the unit itself.

There most likely is a much better solution, and I'm not trying to put anyone off of that path- but I don't much care for idling the traction motor to get the power to drive accessories. I mean, first of all, I'll have to put my truck in neutral when approaching every stop just to keep from it trying to fight its way against the brakes. It also means that shifting back into gear without a clutch would be impossible.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

I am planning something similar to this approach with one major difference. I will only be using the compressor from the AC unit. The way I see it by using the stock vehicle condensor, receiver dryer and evaporator the system will be matched. In addition the thermal expansion valve will meter the correct amount of refrigerant to the evaporator, the stock thermostat can still be used to cut off the compressor should the evap get too cold and the stock condensor fan can be wired to turn off at highway speeds if so desired. I will in fact only need to install one part (the compressor). My only concern is that I'm not sure if compressors from window units can withstand being continuously bounced around while running, the motor mounting doesn't seem very sturdy. I guess time will tell.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

jehan12413 said:


> I am planning something similar to this approach with one major difference. I will only be using the compressor from the AC unit. The way I see it by using the stock vehicle condensor, receiver dryer and evaporator the system will be matched. In addition the thermal expansion valve will meter the correct amount of refrigerant to the evaporator, the stock thermostat can still be used to cut off the compressor should the evap get too cold and the stock condensor fan can be wired to turn off at highway speeds if so desired. I will in fact only need to install one part (the compressor). My only concern is that I'm not sure if compressors from window units can withstand being continuously bounced around while running, the motor mounting doesn't seem very sturdy. I guess time will tell.


Jehan,

Sounds like an interesting project. How far off is that phase of your build? I would like to hear how well that might work.

Eric


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

jehan12413 said:


> My only concern is that I'm not sure if compressors from window units can withstand being continuously bounced around while running, the motor mounting doesn't seem very sturdy. I guess time will tell.


Get the window unit approved for California, their homes shake more than some cars 

Seriously though, this sounds like even better idea, reuse as much as possible from OEM system.

I am enjoying AC in my EV right now, but I have all OEM system with a pulley on Warp9's rear shaft since I have auto tranny and I idle the motor. Only takes extra 1.5kW from the car, so I guess its about the same power as the window unit. Very comfortable cooling, can even be too cold at times.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2010)

Mount the compressor on rubber mounts to help with the vibration issue your concerned with. That should do just fine. I like the idea. 

Pete


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I called for info on this system . is compressor a scroll type and what type of refrigerant is best . they will call back with info . Patty said you can go with just the compressor and use your condenser , price tomorrow .


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

yes, using oem may be better, but that 1.5kw comes from the pack, and Hopefully mine will come fromthe accessory battery, so no range loss. (I Hope)


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

jehan12413 said:


> The way I see it by using the stock vehicle condensor, receiver dryer and evaporator the system will be matched. In addition the thermal expansion valve will meter the correct amount of refrigerant to the evaporator, ...


Not necessarily. The expansion valve should be sized to match the compressor, the mass flow rate needs to be the pretty close. If it's more than 25% off, you could flood the compressor if the expansion valve is to big. Not saying it will be the case, but I've run into it several times over my HVAC career. If your suction pressure won't get low enough and your compressor is slugging liquid, your expansion valve is probably too big for the compressor. Same problem I think Jack Rickard is having with his Mini Cooper.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

Unfortunately the AC is last on my list of things to do, so I probably won't work on it till next winter. But since the compressor will be so easy to install it should be a quick project. I will also have the advantage of being able to quickly change it out if it is the wrong size.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

jehan12413 said:


> I am planning something similar to this approach with one major difference. I will only be using the compressor from the AC unit. The way I see it by using the stock vehicle condensor, receiver dryer and evaporator the system will be matched. In addition the thermal expansion valve will meter the correct amount of refrigerant to the evaporator, the stock thermostat can still be used to cut off the compressor should the evap get too cold and the stock condensor fan can be wired to turn off at highway speeds if so desired. I will in fact only need to install one part (the compressor).


Could'nt agree more, Ive had 10 yrs low temp exp and think this is the way to go. I would estimate a 3/4 to 1 1/2 hp compressor should work. Also, install a fan cycle switch, a very common refrigeration component with adjustable or preset control.



billhac said:


> yes, using oem may be better, but that 1.5kw comes from the pack, and Hopefully mine will come fromthe accessory battery, so no range loss. (I Hope)


...But if youre acc batt is charged by dc-dc, which runs off the batt pack?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Could'nt agree more, Ive had 10 yrs low temp exp and think this is the way to go. I would estimate a 3/4 to 1 1/2 hp compressor should work. Also, install a fan cycle switch, a very common refrigeration component with adjustable or preset control.
> 
> 
> ...But if youre acc batt is charged by dc-dc, which runs off the batt pack?


 
I have a seperate 12v charger for my acc stuff, so still no range difference.


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## pariah (Oct 10, 2008)

Time for a stupid question. Would it be possible to use a system like this as a heat pump? That way you could avoid the question of ceramic or liquid heating. I admit to knowing nothing about HVAC systems.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

billhac said:


> I have a seperate 12v charger for my acc stuff, so still no range difference.


 I have wondered about that and have seen conflicting ideas on it. Do you have the lower voltage problem of the 12v(batt) as opposed to 13.8v(batt+charging)?
Also, if you do run an ac compressor off an inverter, it would have to be an inverter set up for lower voltage, otherwise, youre battery voltage will sag enough to shut off the inveter on a low voltage safety, possibly.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok here is an up date, when i built my car ac was not on my mind, but range was, so the front of the car (where the radiator was) is now filled with batteries. with out rebuilding the front of the car, it would not have been possible to mount the unit as one, so on the advice of a friend who does HVAC i seperated the condenser fron the compressor, and will run a short line between to tie them back in. here is what i have so far. I mounted the condenser there so it can blow out side air through the hole in the hood, and the bottom is open for more air. I just put the compressor where i could get it in.

I will have the lines made on tuesday.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

pariah said:


> Time for a stupid question. Would it be possible to use a system like this as a heat pump? That way you could avoid the question of ceramic or liquid heating. I admit to knowing nothing about HVAC systems.


Yeah its possible, would you want to? No way! The components would take up way more room.
you would have to set up a 3 way valve, have the pistons (allows full flow one way, metered flow the other) installed before the condenser and evap. This is the systems metering device in place a txv or cap tube. Best way to make heat is with a heating element. Electrical energy straight to heat. Way more efficient than using a compressor to remove heat via a working fluid.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Nice looking layout, I just think, IMO, that the condensing assembly is too bulky and large. Where as the compressor itself is pretty small. Thats why youre having to split the system and have lines made. By the way, when you have the lines made, will they be simple copper, aluminum, or are you going for hose? If hose, make absolutely sure they are using hose intended for refrigerants, not just some high pressure hydraulic hose.
I have a good buddy and his dad in Casa Grande, he runs a hose shop doing all types of heavy duty hydraluics and such. He has also been very busy doing ac lines. He does the aluminum welding if/when special fittings are needed and he has the correct hose, fittings and tools.
If interested.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> I have wondered about that and have seen conflicting ideas on it. Do you have the lower voltage problem of the 12v(batt) as opposed to 13.8v(batt+charging)?
> Also, if you do run an ac compressor off an inverter, it would have to be an inverter set up for lower voltage, otherwise, youre battery voltage will sag enough to shut off the inveter on a low voltage safety, possibly.


my charger takes it up to full voltage 13.8 and i have no problems with usinh the head lights, radio, an all of my 30 mile trips to work. I am using 4 lawn mower batteries for acc, but will change to the maxx29 125 ah battery when the ac is ready, i have a 12 v 2000 watt 4000w surge inverter, which should run it, it runs my fridge in my garage fine so i dont see a problem with it, but you never know, first the lines then the power.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Nice looking layout, I just think, IMO, that the condensing assembly is too bulky and large. Where as the compressor itself is pretty small. Thats why youre having to split the system and have lines made. By the way, when you have the lines made, will they be simple copper, aluminum, or are you going for hose? If hose, make absolutely sure they are using hose intended for refrigerants, not just some high pressure hydraulic hose.
> I have a good buddy and his dad in Casa Grande, he runs a hose shop doing all types of heavy duty hydraluics and such. He has also been very busy doing ac lines. He does the aluminum welding if/when special fittings are needed and he has the correct hose, fittings and tools.
> If interested.


more than likely hoses, the place that I am going to makes auto ac lines so they have all the right stuff, i took the unit in there yesterday to find out if they could do what i want, they said it was not a problem.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

billhac said:


> more than likely hoses, the place that I am going to makes auto ac lines so they have all the right stuff, i took the unit in there yesterday to find out if they could do what i want, they said it was not a problem.


 Cool beans. I plan on brazing some flare fittings on a compressor, than making connections using flares. As a refrigeration tech, I hate flared fittings, but have to respect how easy they are to work with and setup. They do leak a bit.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

I agree about the condensing assembly, but if I had planned for it in the beginning it would have been nicer looking, and in the front, but next time i will know, that what happens when you leave out something in the plan, now find a place for it and still make it look good too? i think i will only get one of those options this time.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

billhac said:


> I agree about the condensing assembly, but if I had planned for it in the beginning it would have been nicer looking, and in the front, but next time i will know, that what happens when you leave out something in the plan, now find a place for it and still make it look good too? i think i will only get one of those options this time.


You live in Phoenix and forgot ac???
I went to warped tour at cricket pavillion and spent all day(10 hours) in 110 degree heat, on black asphalt, with crowds of people. ac has to be top of the list!


billhac said:


> my charger takes it up to full voltage 13.8 and i have no problems with usinh the head lights, radio, an all of my 30 mile trips to work.


 What is youre voltage a while after the charger shuts off?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

around 11.8 by the time i get home from work, and do a few arrends after work. my inverter gives me a low voltage warning at 11.5 and shuts off around 11 volts. i may even use the maxx29 just for the ac and not tie it in to the acc, just for safety.

yea what the hell was i thinking leaving it out, i was going for cheap and ac wasent in the budget, but you can bet it is in the budget now.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Let me know if you need any help vacuuming or charging the system.
I'd like to see youre conversion.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Let me know if you need any help vacuuming or charging the system.
> I'd like to see youre conversion.


well arizona city might be a little out of my car's range, but i will need the vacuuming and charging next week some time. I have to have the lines made and that is a couple of days off so im on hold untill then.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, I drive the entire Phoenix valley, all day, every day, for work. I often find myself in the valley off hours too.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Yeah, I drive the entire Phoenix valley, all day, every day, for work. I often find myself in the valley off hours too.


well then i may take you up on your offer.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many,
do you have any thoughts on sweating copper lines to aluminum? I have'ent tried yet but just wanted to know if it can be done.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

billhac said:


> few2many,
> do you have any thoughts on sweating copper lines to aluminum? I have'ent tried yet but just wanted to know if it can be done.


 wouldnt even bother to try. Need a mechanical coupling at that point.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

yep, I figured as much, I all ready have mechanical fittings on it.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

Why don't you use O rings instead of flare fittings similar to the ones in the stock system? Those types of fittings are pretty common.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

jehan12413 said:


> Why don't you use O rings instead of flare fittings similar to the ones in the stock system? Those types of fittings are pretty common.


 
I was having trouble finding the oring fittings.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

here it is installed in the car, and the line between condenser and compressor is tied back in, on tuesday I will have the lines made and tie in the power and inverter.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

the way it is mounted looks like it will blow hot air on the controller but its hard to tell on the pic.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dexion said:


> the way it is mounted looks like it will blow hot air on the controller but its hard to tell on the pic.


 
the condenser fan is set up to blow through the condenser, so It wont blow on the controller, but maybe on the compressor


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

jehan12413 said:


> Why don't you use O rings instead of flare fittings similar to the ones in the stock system? Those types of fittings are pretty common.


Double Flare fittings are pretty easy to deal with and to diy. The o-ring fittings are usually machined and welded to the line. They are preferred, and can be done diy with difficulty, but you can get decent results with a double flare type flaring tool, If done right.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

the line place was open today, so i was able to take the car there and have them start on the lines, so they will be ready first thing in the morning. cant wait to see how this works, if it dont work good, then at least im only out a couple of hunderd bucks, instead of 449.00 for the same unit from electric blue motors.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

did I miss what model inverter you are using? 

Or are you testing it before buying one?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dexion said:


> did I miss what model inverter you are using?
> 
> Or are you testing it before buying one?


 
I have a 2000w 4000w surge inverter that i will use if it works, but i will just plug it in to a wall outlet to charge and test it.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok the lines are hooked up, and i put oil in the compressor, now just waiting to draw a vacuum on it then I will charge it and see what happens.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can feel the cool air from here  Hope it works.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

jrp3 said:


> i can feel the cool air from here :d hope it works.


 

me too...........


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## nitbolta (Jul 4, 2010)

billhac said:


> well the specs say that it runs at 4.5 amps but it needs 20amps for ten seconds to startup, so i am going to use a 1500 watt inverter with a serge of 3000watts, and that should run it, i will be changing my accessory battery to a deep cycle 105 amp hour and run the inverter from my accessory battery. it should work, I have to go to the wrecking yard and get the ac lines and take them to a line shop and have them adapted to fit the unit, but I will do that tomarrow, and if it all goes well, i will have ac on tuesday.


 I guess a dedicated battery should do the start up or circuit based on capacitors and inductors to get that current.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

From what I understand, it still has the capacitors and start circuit.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok, I drew avacuum on the unit to and charged it wth r134, and .........
no cold air, the compressor gets real hot and so do the lines, then the thermal switch kills the compressor. so I dont know if it is something that I did rong, or just that it wont work for the car, in any case, I think im done, I will try to use the factory compressor for it, but at least it wasent 449.00 like the one at electric blue motors.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hold on a second there, dont get too discouraged yet. 
You may not have alot of cash into it, but you have some and its a worthwhile investment to try a few more times.. 
Give me(or any refrigeration tech) a chance to look it over. It may be the high temp safety or something else. Most likely an obstruction in the system overloading the comp. What sensors or safeties are left in the system?
ah, this'll take too long, I'll just call ya.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

How much gas did you put in. Did you have pressure gauges on it while charging??

Did any warm/hot air come out of the condenser coil ??

I dont want to insult....but are you sure high side and low side are connected correctly ??


Roy


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Looking at youre pics more closely, Which line got hot as soon as it was on?
Are you sure thats an accumulator, not a filter drier?
Alos, bad place for the cap tube, if it were used, it would have to be right on the evap.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> How much gas did you put in. Did you have pressure gauges on it while charging??
> 
> Did any warm/hot air come out of the condenser coil ??
> 
> ...


actually, i did not feel any warm or hot air from the condenser, it is no insult to me, Im sure the high and low is right, yes I did have automotive pressure gauges, on it when I charged it.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok few2many here are the pics of all of it


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

The cap tube (coiled thin tube) has to go, thats the metering device for the original evaporator. I'm assuming your metering device is in the alum block going in to the original evap coil, but not sure. Also I dont see an accumulator/drier anywhere.

Just to say, the high pressure side from compressor goes to the top of the condenser, it puts in hot high pressure gas, so when this gas cools, it turns in to high pressure liquid out the bottom, which should be just a bit warmer then the outside air temp. It then goes to an accumulator/drier, from there it goes to evaporator, the metering device should just go before the evaporator, and it should get cold on the other side of the metering device.

Also if all is right, as your charging, the low side (large tube) should start to sweath comming out of evap. I'm sure, if I see the pics right, the cap tube needs to go, the outlet needs to be the same size as copper from condenser. And you need to make sure you have a metering device somewhere before the evap.

Now you may not need an accumulator since your compressor is running at constant rpm, but it would help.


Roy


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy,
That all sounds about right. What about the somehwat large cylinder on the suction line, along the side of the compressor? Accumulator? How about removing the evap metering device and using the cap tube? The cap tube may be straight into condenser. 
I've been trying to find specs on the damn window unit, but nothing usefull comes up.
It's a LG-zenith mod#ZW5010


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

I belive the cylinder is the filter drier, if I see it correctly.....and no no no, the cap tube needs to go. I'm pretty sure the metering device is at that square block at the evaoprator, at least from what I can make out in the pics.

What needs to be understood, is that the high pressure liquid goes to a metering device, which has the low pressure suction from compressor on the other side of the metering. So when you take a high pressure liquid and inject it in to a low pressure enviroment, the liquid boils off and absorbs heat, just like if you open a co2 cartridge too fast, it gets cold, thats the principle of refrigeration.

The metering device and the amount of refrigerant needs the correct balance so the evaporator coil gets cold throughout its length to absorp the max amount of heat it can, and that cool gas goes all the way to the compressor to help cool it. But if the metering device isnt right or if there is an overcahrge, even with the correct orifice, liquid will enter the compressor and will kill it eventually, not to mention the system will not operate correctly.

Thats why an expansion valve is so much better, for if sized right, it meters the right amount to the evaporator, no matter the small amount of pressure differences that occure normaly, for it meters by sensing the temperatur of the tube comming out of the evaporator, and adusts accordingly.

I know this may be a long explanation, but I just want to show how important it is the get this balance correctly.

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

roy, thanks for the info and explanation, that is basically what few2many said also, I was not sure about the expansion valve, but I will try your advice and see what happens.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok I did some research and here is the expansion valve for the car, looks like the one in my pics to me, so cap tube is gone


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, thats about what I was thinking. If the cylinder is a filter drier, then is that the discharge port, or the suction port?


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

While I agree with Roy on the cap tube if everything were matched, but the expansion valve should be open if the superheat were too high anyway. Can't we get some pressures on high and low side before changing parts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I noticed the pictures of the Cool Blue unit still have that copper coil in place. You can just see it on the left:










I can't remember what you're using but their manual says R24 refrigerant.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I noticed the pictures of the Cool Blue unit still have that copper coil in place. You can just see it on the left:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you mean R22.

Roy


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Just looked that up, I've never heard of R24, but one of the links mentioned RS24, I have no knowledge on this refrigerant.

Like I said on my first post, its a frankensystem, wrong gas, wrong oil, txv made for 134A and a questionable match....

Even I would have to study this hard before I would attempt it, there are too many things that need to be engineered just right, for it to work.


Roy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Apparently Cool Blue has it working. I guess R24 is also RS24 and R426A and is an automotive replacement for R12.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Well even if it is a replacement for R12, the expansion valve is a 134A type, and it isnt a match. Just for info purposes, the sensing bulbs on txv's have the same refrigerant as the original refrigerant, so R12 or its replacement going to be a no match.

As to using the cap tube, the cap tube has a certain lenght and inside diameter that is matched to the evaporator, and it would be difficult to get just right without having vital info. In this situation, considering the evaporator manifold block is also the expansion valve, there is no way, or highly unlikely, that one could adapt a cap tube.

Now having said all this stuff, if one wanted to use a window ac for a vehicle, and if it has the proper btu's for the heatload, one would want to use the original evaporator, but in most cases thats not mechanicaly adaptable in most cases.

So my advice is unless you can use a double shafted motor to hook all the original stuff to, leave it all alone, find a R134 compressor for that temp range and btu's, and hook it to the original tubing. Or have a professional look at it, to see how it could be made to work.

Now you understand why my original post said "good luck".


Roy


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey Roy, forgot to mention 10+ years doing low temp. Also, I asked about the filter dryed because its connected to the evap suction line. Billhac said his suction line also got hot when the compressor was running. Normally, on a compressor, the suction port is near the top, so the returning vapor will cool the internal motor. The discharge port is usually low, where the piston and oil supply, internal mechanical parts are. I am concerned they may be reversed. 
Bill, I'll be there in an hour or two. That area is right on the way to my next service call.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Yea I had a hard time seeing all that from the pic's, I did ask whether or not the high and low side was correct..lol.

Will be interesting to see what you will find, but you would think somewhere along the line, after the cap tube, the temp would drop, as any restriction would do...grin.

If its reversed, the can if he used such, could have blown.....not good

Also note what oil is in that compressor

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Yea I had a hard time seeing all that from the pic's, I did ask whether or not the high and low side was correct..lol.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what you will find, but you would think somewhere along the line, after the cap tube, the temp would drop, as any restriction would do...grin.
> 
> ...


 
well all of the lines were right, few2many did rework some of my f up with the copper lines, he changed the fittings on high and low to better suit the unit. now it looks like the condenser is leaking so I will take it off to see, the compressor has PAG150 oil in it, and the 134 is what is used in some of the pictures from electric blue, so 134 is apparanty working, once the condenser is fixed, it should blow cold, now how cold for that small unit will be the question. but as far as the inut working i have no doubt that it will work, and with proper planning it should fit nicely in the front or a car in the radiator spot. so dont let my nonplanning fool you, i think the unit will work, and i want to thank few2many for all his help.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to hear. Hopefully few2 will chime in and tell us exactly what he changed. Did he leave the coil in place?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Good to hear. Hopefully few2 will chime in and tell us exactly what he changed. Did he leave the coil in place?


 
no i removed that last night on the advice of him and roy, basically my job tieing the condensor and compressor was poop, so he fixed that, changed it to 3/8 copper tubing, straight through with no fittings, and he changed the machanical fittings to some that was solder on, which in my humble opnion is better, thats about it, I will post some new pics in a while.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Good to hear. Hopefully few2 will chime in and tell us exactly what he changed. Did he leave the coil in place?


 

but the cap tube coil was only removed because the car still had its expansion valve. on all of the carsthat i have workrd on the expansion valve was right neer the accumulator, and I thought when i got the lines from the wreaking yard, that I cut the lines before the expansion valve and accumulator, but nope i was rong, so I think if the car does not have an expansion valve, maybe you could use the cap tube coil, but I am not an ac guy, so it is just trial and error for me.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

You are certainly welcome for the help. You have a nice conversion there, definitely wanna take a ride, when the ac is working of course.
The biggest things that will limit the efficeincy are the undersized suction line, undersized condenser and compressor. As to how much, you let us know!
The things I didnt like about the unit in place, we had some problems with the copper. Paper thin in some spots and actually tore like paper! I've never seen copper this thin, especially on a system with design pressures for 410a refrigerant, which operates at way higher pressures.
All in all, with a few mods, it should do ok. If not, I will make it!!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

few2many said:


> The things I didnt like about the unit in place, we had some problems with the copper. Paper thin in some spots and actually tore like paper! I've never seen copper this thin, especially on a system with design pressures for 410a refrigerant, which operates at way higher pressures.


What do you expect from a $75 A/C unit?


> All in all, with a few mods, it should do ok. If not, I will make it!!!


Wish I had a HVAC pro willing to do free house calls


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well Im sure that I will own later, when few2 gets his conversion going, so I fixed the broken condenser line, using a couple of tricks that I stoled... I mean borrowed from few2, and put it back on the car, now I just need to draw a vacuum, I wnt to autozone to get a manufold set as i have a vacuum pump, but some one beat me to them, so i have to wait untill tomarrow, damn!!, I wanted to try it out tonight...


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> What do you expect from a $75 A/C unit?
> Wish I had a HVAC pro willing to do free house calls


 

hey!!!, it was 79.99 + tax dont short change me, im not that cheap, I would have paid full price for it.(99.99 + tax)


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> You are certainly welcome for the help. You have a nice conversion there, definitely wanna take a ride, when the ac is working of course.
> The biggest things that will limit the efficeincy are the undersized suction line, undersized condenser and compressor. As to how much, you let us know!
> The things I didnt like about the unit in place, we had some problems with the copper. Paper thin in some spots and actually tore like paper! I've never seen copper this thin, especially on a system with design pressures for 410a refrigerant, which operates at way higher pressures.
> All in all, with a few mods, it should do ok. If not, I will make it!!!


 
thanks for the compliment on the car, you are certainly welcome to come take a ride, I have every confidence that it will work.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok her it is finished up, i just need to vacuum and charge it. you can compair the other pics with these and note the differences, like the better fittings, for one.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Just had a thought, newer ac units gain efficiency by using smaller compressors that use less power. Yes, if its undersized you'd expect it to work to hard for the same amount. However, they use considerably more condernser area thatn needed to make up for it. 
Billhac's condenser is small with tiny tubes. We may be able to increase the potential of the small compressor by removing the condenser and putting a much larger one in the grill or laying flat under the car. Maybe even laying flat right under the openeing in the hood.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well, here is the results, I drove the car to a shop and had them draw a vacuum and leak test of the system, that all came back good, no leaks and a good vacuum, so I drove it back home and charged it with freon, I used r 134 and right now I plugged the unit in to a wall outlet, turned it on and........................






cold air came from the vents, wooo hooo, the air from the vents was getting down to 49 degrees. I ran the system for about 30 minuites and it was very comfortable inside the car.

now for the same unit from electric blue motors it would have cost $449.00 for the unit and $449.00 for the blue flash inverter to operate it, pluse the lines and metal to mount it and install it.

the total cost for this install was 370 dollars to be riding in the cool in my ev.
that cost consists of $100.00 for the ac unit from home depot (79.99 on sale)
$115.00 for the inverter from harbour freight.
$60.00 for the lines to be made.
and $95.00 for material, however some of the material did not work and had to be done different, but that is added in to the $95.00 for material. 

now the total cost from electric blue would have been $1000.00 and that is with 449.00 for the unit, and 449.99 for the blue flash inverter plus $100.00 for the lines and material (conservative estimate)

that means I saved $630 because I did it myself.

now on to run time, I may have to add an extra deep cycle battery to the accessory pack to get it to run as long as i need it.

but It did work and seems to work well.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Congratulations! This is a breakthrough for a LOT of folks who have been afraid to tackle the AC issue. You are a true pioneer and I, for one, will use this AC method for my build.

Thanks again.

Eric


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Nice experiment that seems to be working! -a couple of questions- how many btu was that unt rated at? What was the ambient temp outside when you were getting 49* duct temp, and do you think you could have used the original home depot unit's evaporator in your vehicle instead of the cars original thereby eliminating use of diferent components, oils, freon? Basicaly replace the car system with the depot system by just extending the lines.?
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great job, glad it's working for you! I have been wondering about under hood heat build up with the condenser, controller and motor all in there. I hope you have good air flow in and out of the engine compartment. A remote condenser might be a good idea if it doesn't perform as well on the road.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

The window unit was rated around 5,000 btu's, about half a ton. Its about 105-107 today. 
To install the whole unit wouldve been possible and wouldve worked good, but wouldve required some dash mods and effort and the cap tube is not a very efficeint metering device. 
There are lots of ways to do this. 
Use just the compressor and all original car parts. 
Use the whole window unit and run lines. 
Or as billhac said, "franken system". Half and half. 
The only original car part left was the evap and metering device, so it made sense to use only what was needed from the window unit.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Nice experiment that seems to be working! -a couple of questions- how many btu was that unt rated at? What was the ambient temp outside when you were getting 49* duct temp, and do you think you could have used the original home depot unit's evaporator in your vehicle instead of the cars original thereby eliminating use of diferent components, oils, freon? Basicaly replace the car system with the depot system by just extending the lines.?
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


the temp in my garage was 93 degrees with the fan blowing, sitting inside the car it was about 88-89 and after around 30 minuits it was 70 in the car with the windows rolled up, so it was comfortable.as for the rest few2 many has answered them in another post. now that was just sitting in my garage, i have not taken it out on the road with the ac on. I was waiting to feel cool air from the vents before getting the inverter, but that is next.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> The window unit was rated around 5,000 btu's, about half a ton. Its about 105-107 today.
> To install the whole unit wouldve been possible and wouldve worked good, but wouldve required some dash mods and effort and the cap tube is not a very efficeint metering device.
> There are lots of ways to do this.
> Use just the compressor and all original car parts.
> ...


few2, I believe it was roy that said it was a franken system, but In the movie when the surgery was done frankenstein was alive, just like my air conditioning.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Great job, glad it's working for you! I have been wondering about under hood heat build up with the condenser, controller and motor all in there. I hope you have good air flow in and out of the engine compartment. A remote condenser might be a good idea if it doesn't perform as well on the road.


I will see how it goes, but I think I have good air flow, where the condenser sits there is a hole in my hood and the bottom under the compressor, and beside it is all open , you can see the ground real good, so Im keeping my fingers crossed. i also positioned the controller to use some of that air from the hole in the hood and have two high output fans on top of the controller, and a big heat sink bolted underneath. also, I have a fan for cooling on my motor, so heat is minimal.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

I got a lot more questions, but its working so I'll let it be...lol

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

esoneson said:


> Congratulations! This is a breakthrough for a LOT of folks who have been afraid to tackle the AC issue. You are a true pioneer and I, for one, will use this AC method for my build.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Eric


 
thank for the compliment, but I dont think pioneer is the word to use, Im just a guy who was hot in his EV, and wanted to do something about it, with out loosing my range. but It is not done yet, I still need the inverter, I want to start with the lowest wattage one to run the unit, but I think, using this formula
amps x volts = watts, I should be able to use the 1000 watt inverter from harbor freight, so that is what i will use first, but my 2000w 4000w surge inverter will run it, I just want to keep the cost low, so that is why i will get the inverter from HF.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> I got a lot more questions, but its working so I'll let it be...lol
> 
> Roy


ask away roy, if i can answer then I will. I value everyones opnion.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Well you said that you took it to a shop for a vacuum and leak check, how did it not loose the vacuum when they disconnected from charge port ??

How much refrigerant did you put in, and how did you determine when it was full ??

And yes, good question, how you gonna get rid of all that 5k btu heat..lol

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Well you said that you took it to a shop for a vacuum and leak check, how did it not loose the vacuum when they disconnected from charge port ??
> 
> How much refrigerant did you put in, and how did you determine when it was full ??
> 
> ...


my under standing is that if there is no leaks, the vacuum will stay for a few minuites,the unit that they used was nice, I asked about vacuum, they said at the shop it might lose a little but it will still be ok when i get home. I only live a block from the place that did the vacuum, so i ran home and charged it right then. I put in 2 12oz cans of 134, I dont know if it is full, but it is blowing cold so I stopped the 134 before the second can was empty. as for the heat as i said it has a fan on the condenser, so there should be good air flow, but if not, after getting it on the road, then I will move the condenser, if i need to


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Well you said that you took it to a shop for a vacuum and leak check, how did it not loose the vacuum when they disconnected from charge port ??
> 
> Roy


Hey Bill, sorry if I jumped in and aswered the question for you earlier. 

Well, I can't speak for billhac or the shop that did the work as I wasn't on hand for the completion (dangit). However, when I go from nitrogen pressure test, to vacuum, then to charge, I do not need to change fittings. Most common gauge sets have 2 valves, high and low. Mine has 4 valves, high, low, vacuum and charge ports. I can go straight from one to the other without changing fittings. I've seen the shop all in one set ups, they're nice, but take up too much floor room.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Hey Bill, sorry if I jumped in and aswered the question for you earlier.
> 
> Well, I can't speak for billhac or the shop that did the work as I wasn't on hand for the completion (dangit). However, when I go from nitrogen pressure test, to vacuum, then to charge, I do not need to change fittings. Most common gauge sets have 2 valves, high and low. Mine has 4 valves, high, low, vacuum and charge ports. I can go straight from one to the other without changing fittings. I've seen the shop all in one set ups, they're nice, but take up too much floor room.


thanks few2, I answered as best as i could. appreciate the in put though, roy does have a good piont I do need to know if it is full or not, how can i do that here at home? I know what my 134 gauge said but I cant tell if the unit could handle more.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

You can go by the gauge on the 134a fill hose, BUT, it is a very rough estimate of charge. On a car, the pressure changes by engine/compressor speed and airflow over the condenser. On you're system, airflow and compressor are steady, easier to work with. 
There are several ways to verify charge. 
Best way, charge by weight by manufacturers spec. Not likely to work for you here. 
Next best is by Superheat. Thats the measure of suction line temp vs exit air temp vs boiling point of the working fluid. Bit of math and no regular auto techs know about it. They go the above listed only. 
Next best, figure out the volume of all parts, if liquid, suction or discharge and add it all up, lots of math. 
Or just go with the little line gauge!


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> You can go by the gauge on the 134a fill hose, BUT, it is a very rough estimate of charge. On a car, the pressure changes by engine/compressor speed and airflow over the condenser. On you're system, airflow and compressor are steady, easier to work with.
> There are several ways to verify charge.
> Best way, charge by weight by manufacturers spec. Not likely to work for you here.
> Next best is by Superheat. Thats the measure of suction line temp vs exit air temp vs boiling point of the working fluid. Bit of math and no regular auto techs know about it. They go the above listed only.
> ...


 
sounds like that is the way i will check it then, little line gauge it is.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I would charge to the top of the green zone on the gauge. You'll want to make sure you're getting a little cool vapor back to the compressor. The line should be cool and sweaty going into it. The expansion valve will adjust if its a little off.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

few2many said:


> Hey Bill, sorry if I jumped in and aswered the question for you earlier.
> 
> Well, I can't speak for billhac or the shop that did the work as I wasn't on hand for the completion (dangit). However, when I go from nitrogen pressure test, to vacuum, then to charge, I do not need to change fittings. Most common gauge sets have 2 valves, high and low. Mine has 4 valves, high, low, vacuum and charge ports. I can go straight from one to the other without changing fittings. I've seen the shop all in one set ups, they're nice, but take up too much floor room.


I asked because he stated that the shop did the vaccum and it tested, I'm assuming they just made sure it held vacuum. But since they had to remove their gauges and for him to charge it at home, how did they take the guages off without letting air back in. But since I wasnt there, not sure how it was all done. There is no such thing as a "little vaccum", its all about how many "microns". If air enters, there better be some dessicant somewhere to take up the moisture...lol

Since hes got an expansion valve superheat is going to be whatever the txv sits at, unless its adjustable. The proper way on a txv is subcool, which just means that the high side needs to be a bit higer temps then ambient, to make sure there is a solid stack of refrigerant sitting in front of the txv. If high side is too hot, its overfilled and the condensing coil has too much refigerant in it, in other words "overcharged".

In some systems there is a sight glass, so you at least can tell by looking at it, but it wont tell if its overcharged. 

As some of you can tell, there is a lot more to refrigeration, then just putting gas in.

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> I asked because he stated that the shop did the vaccum and it tested, I'm assuming they just made sure it held vacuum. But since they had to remove their gauges and for him to charge it at home, how did they take the guages off without letting air back in. But since I wasnt there, not sure how it was all done. There is no such thing as a "little vaccum", its all about how many "microns". If air enters, there better be some dessicant somewhere to take up the moisture...lol
> 
> Since hes got an expansion valve superheat is going to be whatever the txv sits at, unless its adjustable. The proper way on a txv is subcool, which just means that the high side needs to be a bit higer temps then ambient, to make sure there is a solid stack of refrigerant sitting in front of the txv. If high side is too hot, its overfilled and the condensing coil has too much refigerant in it, in other words "overcharged".
> 
> ...


what would you consider a bit higher temp? how many degrees above ambient


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> I asked because he stated that the shop did the vaccum and it tested, I'm assuming they just made sure it held vacuum. But since they had to remove their gauges and for him to charge it at home, how did they take the guages off without letting air back in. But since I wasnt there, not sure how it was all done. There is no such thing as a "little vaccum", its all about how many "microns". If air enters, there better be some dessicant somewhere to take up the moisture...lol
> 
> Since hes got an expansion valve superheat is going to be whatever the txv sits at, unless its adjustable. The proper way on a txv is subcool, which just means that the high side needs to be a bit higer temps then ambient, to make sure there is a solid stack of refrigerant sitting in front of the txv. If high side is too hot, its overfilled and the condensing coil has too much refigerant in it, in other words "overcharged".
> 
> ...


also I dont know if it helps, but the hose that they used was a clip on for 134, but it also had like a valve maybe on top of where it clicks on, after they put it on , they turned it then when the machine finished, they turned it back, then unhooked it from the line, hopefully that helps but in any case it is working, the objective of this project was to have cool air coming from the vents, and that is what I got. I agree there is alot more then just putting gas in, but give credit where it is due, i was not looking to freeze meat in my EV, just beat the heat, and with a little help, and a bit of sweat, that is what happened. if I did not have to break the unit up, it would have only needed the cap tube removed and a fitting put on the high and low side, and the lines made, and it would have worked, so again with a plan to use something like this in a build, you could do it with out belts, a second motor, and even with out taking away from range. and that is the facts, it does work I have proof, and may have someone to back me up, if they come see it for them selfs.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a question, I had a Jeep once that had a blown A/C hose and was empty for a couple years. Finally got a new hose, a few cans of 134, sprayed them in, no vacuum or anything, and it worked fine and is still working. Don't know if it's optimal at all, but the obvious question is how important is that vacuum?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Here's a question, I had a Jeep once that had a blown A/C hose and was empty for a couple years. Finally got a new hose, a few cans of 134, sprayed them in, no vacuum or anything, and it worked fine and is still working. Don't know if it's optimal at all, but the obvious question is how important is that vacuum?


 
I too have just sprayed in 134 after replacing a busted line and bad compressor, and had cold air with out a vacuum. the object is to have cool air, and just spraying it in does get it cold.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

billhac said:


> what would you consider a bit higher temp? how many degrees above ambient


 
Well some companies use the aproach method, and they say around 10 degrees higher then ambient, if my memory serves me. Now in your case thats hard to judge.....so

The evaporator picks up the heat inside the vehicle, its transferes the heat via refrigerant to the condenser which removes said heat, if it has proper airflow to remove it, and in your case doesnt recirculate that heat back in to the condenser. If all that is right, then the tubing comming out of the bottom of the condenser should have most of the heat removed. 

In order for one to know it has proper subcool, and since the condensing coil can never make refrigerant cooler then the ambient air, you fill the system til the temp of the refrigerant is about 5 to 10 degrees higher, thats how you tell on a home hvac sysem with txv, its charged correctly.

Or if you have a sight glass you can tell that there is liquid going to the txv, but subcool temps is the proper way, unless factory says, "use aproach method".

Boy, I gave you all an earfull this time...lol Sorry for all this technical, but I dont know how to describe it better.


Roy


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Air is a non-condensible, it raises the pressures and it will work, as you've seen, but kinda screws up any chance of interpreting the pressures correctly. Its best not to have any though. 
Ideally, 500 microns for 15+ minutes. If the microns drop a little at a steady rate, its moisture, if they drop a lot, probably a leak. If they hold, good to go. 
Roy 
Forgot about subcool, thanks. As I explained it to bill, the discharge line will be burning hot, the liquid line should be a few degrees above ambient, what about 5-10? The suction line should be cool to the touch, even condensating a bit. You should be able to run you're hands down the u-bends on the cond. Burning at top, hot in middle, warm at bottom. Well, I explained it, but didn't note it as subcool.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

great job , with winter just around the corner LOL , adding the 3 way valve for heat pumping will save watts , I can't remember how much but it's good in above freezing temps . GM's EV1 used it . If R12 could be used 35% better cooling , I was looking into using propane / isobutane it's just a little better then R12 but not DOT approved , approved in Canada I think . 1/5 the amount of gas is used , no explosions to date the company claims, with many years experence . PS air conditioning is one place we get more watts of cooling then the watts we put in , say 500 watts in for 1470 watts cooling (5000 btu/3.4 watt=1470 watts ) (3.4 btu= 1 watt) .


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Just a thought for efficeincy sake, change out the blower motor speed solector and resistor bank with a dc 12v pwm motor speed controller. Not sure how much power you'll save.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

few2many said:


> Air is a non-condensible, it raises the pressures and it will work, as you've seen, but kinda screws up any chance of interpreting the pressures correctly. Its best not to have any though.
> Ideally, 500 microns for 15+ minutes. If the microns drop a little at a steady rate, its moisture, if they drop a lot, probably a leak. If they hold, good to go.
> Roy
> Forgot about subcool, thanks. As I explained it to bill, the discharge line will be burning hot, the liquid line should be a few degrees above ambient, what about 5-10? The suction line should be cool to the touch, even condensating a bit. You should be able to run you're hands down the u-bends on the cond. Burning at top, hot in middle, warm at bottom. Well, I explained it, but didn't note it as subcool.


 I was adding R12 to my old pickup last week , sight glass clear , a little over ambient on condenser return, just a little cool on evaporator return . should I add a little more to get cooler on the evaporator return line for max cooling .


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I hate this part , every evaporator on my old cars needed a good cleaning , what fun to get at that thing . I was thinking of cutting a hole to eliminate disassembly .


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Just a thought for efficeincy sake, change out the blower motor speed solector and resistor bank with a dc 12v pwm motor speed controller. Not sure how much power you'll save.


im not sure if i would save any thing, I will be powering the unit fron a seperat battery just for the ac, and everything else from the accessory battery. It will be interesting to see if i can get away with powering it from accessory batteries, how long will it run? i already have all the lights, and a blower motor for cooling the motor, and now i will be runnung the fan blower in the dash for the ac too, so accessory battery might be maxed, as far as range is concerned. A battery for the ac might be needed


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> great job , with winter just around the corner LOL , adding the 3 way valve for heat pumping will save watts , I can't remember how much but it's good in above freezing temps . GM's EV1 used it . If R12 could be used 35% better cooling , I was looking into using propane / isobutane it's just a little better then R12 but not DOT approved , approved in Canada I think . 1/5 the amount of gas is used , no explosions to date the company claims, with many years experence . PS air conditioning is one place we get more watts of cooling then the watts we put in , say 500 watts in for 1470 watts cooling (5000 btu/3.4 watt=1470 watts ) (3.4 btu= 1 watt) .


winter is still 80 degrees here in phoenix.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

80 deg. , not at 5 am or at night . Heating is a bigger problem as far as watts are concerned . I spent a few nights at Falkenfeld in Feb , I had heat and used it .


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> 80 deg. , not at 5 am or at night . Heating is a bigger problem as far as watts are concerned . I spent a few nights at Falkenfeld in Feb , I had heat and used it .


 
you are right but I wont be driving my ev at 5 am, and as soon as the sun comes up it is 65 -70 just that quick. where is falkinfield because now it snows in the white mountains, not all of az is hot, just the desert parts, phoenix, parker, bullhead city, and about a hundred other small cities, but the out lieing areas are some what cooler.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

I dont even use heat in my house in the winter, muchless my car.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

i have some late day updates about the ac,it is now 111 degrees in my garage, so i parked the car in the garage after driving it around about 35 miles, I plugged the compressor in to the wall same as i did before, the compressor turned on and after 15 minuites, it temp inside the car was, about 91 degrees, which is still hot mind you, but it was blowing cold air out of the vents, i dont think i have enough freon in it yet, as my 134 gauge is reading half way in the green so i will put more in it tomarrow when I get to autozone.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

billhac said:


> you are right but I wont be driving my ev at 5 am, and as soon as the sun comes up it is 65 -70 just that quick. where is falkinfield because now it snows in the white mountains, not all of az is hot, just the desert parts, phoenix, parker, bullhead city, and about a hundred other small cities, but the out lieing areas are some what cooler.


 East side of Mesa . its Falcon field airport ,My abc check missed it .


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey aeroscott, is falken field the one off ellsworth and 202, or the one with the houses around the runway. That tripped me out, people who's homes were on the air port property, their driveways are runways and most garages are hangars!
Never mind, I see its nothern mesa.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

airport living great fun , I rented a hanger with 5 other airplanes for 200 a month . I would sleep under my plane/project , had hot and cold (shower in the sink ) . Spent the after work hours seeing what everyone was working on and doing some flying . San Jose runs it and didn't want people working on airplanes , no paint , welding ,etc . so the fun was going south . Some of the planes/ people were incredible .


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Good job billhac! I will be giving A/C a serious look for my next EV, the 86 Corolla!


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

vpoppv said:


> Good job billhac! I will be giving A/C a serious look for my next EV, the 86 Corolla!


 you could call it poormanEVac


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

billhac said:


> you could call it poormanEVac


 Haha! Yeah! I already know the window units I want to use too! I have two busted ones, and one I know for sure has a good compressor. Unfortunately, it's kind of on the big side, like 12,000btu iirc.....The price is right, and if it doesn't work, no big loss. But I wouldn't try it if I hadn't seen your success.....


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

vpoppv said:


> Haha! Yeah! I already know the window units I want to use too! I have two busted ones, and one I know for sure has a good compressor. Unfortunately, it's kind of on the big side, like 12,000btu iirc.....The price is right, and if it doesn't work, no big loss. But I wouldn't try it if I hadn't seen your success.....


 well it works, just need to fine tune it a bit, I have been told that i should have kept one of the lines that i had made the same a stock but I did not know that so i think i may change it just to see if I get any improvment out of it, but for now you cant freeze in it but it will keep you cool.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey billhac, for whatever reason, my blackberry won't let me reply to pm's or reply with quotes, the option to submit doesn't show on the page. I can only reply to thread. I would go with 1/2 or 5/8. I would have to hold them up to to compare. Before we make that change, I would like to ask roy his opinion on the matter.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Hey billhac, for whatever reason, my blackberry won't let me reply to pm's or reply with quotes, the option to submit doesn't show on the page. I can only reply to thread. I would go with 1/2 or 5/8. I would have to hold them up to to compare. Before we make that change, I would like to ask roy his opinion on the matter.


 
cool, just let me know which one you want me to get if any.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

few2many said:


> Hey billhac, for whatever reason, my blackberry won't let me reply to pm's or reply with quotes, the option to submit doesn't show on the page. I can only reply to thread. I would go with 1/2 or 5/8. I would have to hold them up to to compare. Before we make that change, I would like to ask roy his opinion on the matter.


 
Not sure which line you all are refering to.

The high side line shouldnt matter as long as there is not too much of a difference, since all you care is that you have a solid stack of refrigerant sitting in front of the expansion valve. You dont want the liquid line to see a sudden restriction. In hvac high side systems, the restriction can be seen by a temp drop on the other side of the restriction, and most of the time were talking about a filter drier plugging up, the rule of thumb says no more then 3 degrees, but in this case I wouldnt worry about it, unless its obvious.

The low side (return) is restricted by the size of the compressor and tubing, and that is what it is. The main reason in size for hvac system, is to make sure you have the proper velocity for oil return, and the copper size is specified by the factory for that model.

So in this case, I dont have a clue..lol

Roy


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Also while I'm thinking about it, be sure that all copper lines are supported with hold downs, so as to not subject them to undue vibrations. Copper is soft and will brake if shaken too much, its one of the reasons automotive tubing is rubber.

Since its not connected to an ICE, its minimal, but dont forget that road vibrations are still there.

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Also while I'm thinking about it, be sure that all copper lines are supported with hold downs, so as to not subject them to undue vibrations. Copper is soft and will brake if shaken too much, its one of the reasons automotive tubing is rubber.
> 
> Since its not connected to an ICE, its minimal, but dont forget that road vibrations are still there.
> 
> Roy


 
yea i thought abot that yesterday, and started making some supports.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Not sure which line you all are refering to.
> 
> The high side line shouldnt matter as long as there is not too much of a difference, since all you care is that you have a solid stack of refrigerant sitting in front of the expansion valve. You dont want the liquid line to see a sudden restriction. In hvac high side systems, the restriction can be seen by a temp drop on the other side of the restriction, and most of the time were talking about a filter drier plugging up, the rule of thumb says no more then 3 degrees, but in this case I wouldnt worry about it, unless its obvious.
> 
> ...


 roy, we are talking about the low side line that i had made from the origanal line that came with the car, basically it was a 1/2 inch aluminum line, the high side was 3/8, when I took the lines to the shop to have them made, I wanted to keep both lines the same, so I had the hose repair shop shrink the 1/2 inch line down to 3/8, and now both lines are the same size, it was sugested that I should have kept the low side line at 1/2 inch for better efficiency, so we were talking about changing it back to 1/2 inch and just changing the fitting that few2 welded on for me to 1/2 inch to match


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ok here is an up date, I got the inverter from harbor freight today, it is a 1200w 3200 w surge, and it will run the compressor , but my problum is run time, right now my two lawn mower batteries will only last about 5 or 10 minuites so i have to buy a deep cycle battery to riun it, but it does work, all in all im very happy with it.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

second update, after getting a new 100ah deepcycle battery from sam's club, the ac ran it the car for a whole 45 minuites, then the inverter went out, so much for 1200 watts continous. I will take it back to HF tomarrow and up grade to bigger one. I have a 2000w 4000w surge inverter that I know will run it but lets give HF inverters one more try.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

As far as those modified sine wave inverters they work fine with purely resistive loads, but my experience has been that they don't do too well with inductive loads. I have fried several over the years that way.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So even a larger modified sine inverter might still die?


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> So even a larger modified sine inverter might still die?


Not to knock HF or anything, I shop there somewhat often, just not for the big dependable type tools. Unfortunately, a HF inverter is just as likely to burn out with a light bulb as with a compressor. In favor of HF, I've had that same Chicago electric inverter you have there for the past year and a half or so, no problems with it.
With you not using a dc-dc converter, that inverter will shut down before it really has to, Low voltage safety.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well as far a I can tell, it is still working, i just went to MCdonalds for breakfast, in it and it worked fine, not sure what is going on just yet. I got a new 100 amp hour battery just to run the ac so it should have worked longer, 

But in my stupidity i did find a loose wire to my switch for the ac, so ?..............

I would like to get a hard start kit for it just to help with start up, but so far it worked good this morning, the real test will be driving to work tomarrow.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

billhac said:


> I would like to get a hard start kit for it just to help with start up, but so far it worked good this morning, the real test will be driving to work tomarrow.


 That will run about $15-20 for a 3in1 hardstart kit. There is one that operates on a range from 1/12 to i think 1/4, then 1/3, and half. Just installed one on a glycol beer chiller the other day. Built in start, run, overload protect and incredibly simple wiring. 2 leads for hot and common, 3 leads for compressor, start, run and common.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> That will run about $15-20 for a 3in1 hardstart kit. There is one that operates on a range from 1/12 to i think 1/4, then 1/3, and half. Just installed one on a glycol beer chiller the other day. Built in start, run, overload protect and incredibly simple wiring. 2 leads for hot and common, 3 leads for compressor, start, run and common.


 
yep, I was looking at this one but I will check phoenix sheet metal and AC to see if they carry one. i hate waiting on shipping.

http://www.azpartsmaster.com/Products/Supco-SPP6-Super-Boost-Hard-Start-Kit__SPP6.aspx

if they have one at Phoenix sheet metal, then I will just pick one up and add it to the circuit, it may help run time.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Bill, the one you are looking at is for a super boost, to add to existing start components. The 3in1 looks the same, but with the 3 additional leads. Also made by supco


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> Bill, the one you are looking at is for a super boost, to add to existing start components. The 3in1 looks the same, but with the 3 additional leads. Also made by supco


 
oh, the description said it ties in to the terminals on the run capacitor, so i thought it looked good, but what do i know. you think I should be looking for the 3 wire version then?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

looked at it again, the description says, installs across the run capacitor, and it contains the potential relay and large starting cap. so i just assumed it was like an all in one unit.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

That should help with the start and run. Have you tried it yet?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

few2many said:


> That should help with the start and run. Have you tried it yet?


 
no i havent went to get it yet, work got in the way. I will post an up date when it put in on.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

just an update on my electric ac,I have been running it for a few days now and it works ok, it required a deepcycle battery to operate it for a long period of time(45 minuites)to drive from work to home, it does cool the car, but I would like to get it to cool more, so now that I know it works, its time for an upgrade. I am prepairing to get all of the origional ac components like condensor, accumulator, and all of the lines and run just the compressor to maybe get more effiency from the unit. anyone have any thoughts on using all the oem stuff and just the compressor?


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

That's so awesome that it works! I was wondering if you went back to all OEM stuff, maybe you could cut back on inverter losses if you can find a cheap 12v compressor? A quick search came up with this on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/FridgeMate-B-Mo...mping_Hiking_Food_Storage&hash=item20b18c7c0b

Maybe an RV junkyard might have an old refrigerator you could take the compressor out of? Just a thought.....


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## Franky.EV (Feb 27, 2010)

I found this on INTERNET http://www.danfoss.com/BusinessArea...S_Direct_Current_Compressors_R134a_12-24V.htm
12V/24V compressors.

The datasheets give lot of numbers. I don't figure out what they mean.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

vpoppv, That compressor looks too small, way too small. 
Billhac, even if you go back to all original equipment, the compressor is still kinda small, but, the added heat rejection from the larger factory condenser would probably help.
Also, I've used the start run assemblies with success, but its intended for old compressors that have trouble starting. To put one of the boosters on a new and small compressor may overload the start windings or cause premature wear.
Franky, nice find, those look perfect for ev, no inverter needed.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

yes franky those do look nice, I found those before going with the unit that I'm using now. they want 500 bucks for their 12v compressor and that kinda defeated the purpose of what I was doing, I was trying to get air conditioning, in my Ev with out spending 500 dollars, and right now my car gets cool and i have spent 370 bucks, but i had to take the first inverter back to get a 2000w 4000w surge to start the compressor, other than that it works ok, i just want to use what i have more efficiently.


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

The DC Danfoss compressors don't look any bigger, mostly for refrigeration and spot cooling. 

You can get a spray bottle of water and mist it into the condenser to simulate a bigger condenser coil. If it cools alot better, a bigger condenser might help. 

I seem to remember auto AC's being 24,000 btus +, and back of the napkin load calculations that seems about right, if you want to cool off the cabin in a hurry. 5000 btu might keep the cabin cool in the heat if the cabin is already cool and well insulated, but to cool down 150 lbs of plastic and steel 30 degrees F in 10 minutes would probably take around 15,000 btu. My guess is down here in the south, 20,000 btu would be approaching the right amount for a small car, if you want to cool it down after it's been sitting out in the sun. All this is assuming you're not brining in a lot of outside air.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

maxvtol said:


> The DC Danfoss compressors don't look any bigger, mostly for refrigeration and spot cooling.
> 
> You can get a spray bottle of water and mist it into the condenser to simulate a bigger condenser coil. If it cools alot better, a bigger condenser might help.
> 
> I seem to remember auto AC's being 24,000 btus +, and back of the napkin load calculations that seems about right, if you want to cool off the cabin in a hurry. 5000 btu might keep the cabin cool in the heat if the cabin is already cool and well insulated, but to cool down 150 lbs of plastic and steel 30 degrees F in 10 minutes would probably take around 15,000 btu. My guess is down here in the south, 20,000 btu would be approaching the right amount for a small car, if you want to cool it down after it's been sitting out in the sun. All this is assuming you're not brining in a lot of outside air.


 
you are right, but my car is garage kept, and at work it is in a parking garage, so the cabin is 85- 90 maybe, and it stays comfortable all the way home, but i dont stop to get a coke, or any thing i just go to work and to home, it works good for me, but i would like it to be better just for showing.


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## jyanof (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm really late to the scene, but thought I'd share my experience doing this same scheme for a/c. Bill, it was interesting reading this thread because I went through a similar progression - didn't plan on doing a/c, saw the EVblue thing, didn't have room under the hood, but bought the 5k btu a/c unit from home depot, but I ended up installing it in the trunk.

Bottom line is that it only works ok for me and I'll definitely re-do it when I upgrade to lithiums (which are going to take a battery rack overhaul anyway).

I ran hoses all the way under the car from the firewall to the trunk. Both hoses are #6, so I think the suction line is grossly undersized, or the long length diminishes performance. I had a local a/c shop make the hoses, customize some fittings and they filled it with R12. 

The condenser that came with the a/c unit is mounted under the car where the spare tire compartment used to be. I have the original radiator fan sucking air through it. I think it works pretty well since the tubing temperature at the outlet is pretty much equal to ambient temperature. Can't get much better than that.

With all this, I get about a 20-25F drop in air temperature from the vents. Not great, considering that means 95 degree air when it's 115 out, but it's amazing how cool 95F air feels in comparison to the inferno outside.

The electrical works pretty well. I tried the original unit on a 1200W inverter, but the modified sine wave made the compressor sound awful and it drew a ton of amps at 12V. So, i put together my own sine wave inverter that runs off the HV pack (144v nom). I planned on doing a boost regulator pre-stage, but never got around to it, so its not voltage regulated. The peak voltage is whatever the pack voltage is, but I don't think the compressor minds. Maybe the slip increases? I'm not the most knowledgeable with induction motors. Anyway, the inverter cost me about $200 to build. The whole compressor and fan system draws about 4-5 amps from the pack in the hotter weather, and more like 3-4 when it's cooler (95F or so).

I also left the original unit's A/C knob and switch intact because it has an overcurrent switch. The reason the compressor needs high amps to start is mainly for re-starting after it's been on. If you turn it on again without waiting a couple minutes, it's incredibly hard to get started and the compressor is essentially 'seized' for a few seconds until it budges loose. It'll draw 12-15 amps or so on the AC side in this condition. But, in case it's turned on way too soon, the overcurrent switch will trip before something blows or gets ruined. So, I kept it. It automatically resets anyway.



What is totally awesome, though, is that I bought a cheap remote relay on ebay for $25 and hooked it up to turn on the a/c. It turns on the DC/DC to run the fans and closes the relay to turn on the inverter. I just set up the dash knobs and everything before I get out and can turn it on from a couple hundred feet away. So, about 10 mins before I leave work, I step out the door of the building, turn on the a/c, go back and finish up. Now, the car isn't burning hot like it is otherwise and this makes the minimal cooling usable.

In the future, I think I'd upgrade to around a 10k BTU compressor and move everything up front so I don't have to run long hoses. According to the Tango website, it uses a 12k BTU compressor, and it's half the size of a normal car. So, maybe 10k isn't even enough.

Here are some pictures:


A view of the compressor and inverter (to the right) in the trunk.










A view of the inverter. It was just a 1-off, so nothing fancy as far as PCB's and whatnot.









a view of the return hose and copper lines going up into the trunk. The high pressure line goes into the spare tire compartment.









The former spare tire compartment now houses the condenser and its fan. The high pressure line continues on the left side and back to the middle up to the firewall.


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## jyanof (Nov 11, 2008)

few2many:

I vaguely recall these numbers from the shop and was wondering what your opinion of them are:

ambient temp: 100F
vent air temp: 75F
High side temp before condenser: 120F
After condenser:103 F

High side pressure (R12): 240 psi
Low side pressure: 70 psi

I'm not too sure about the temps - they were using one of those IR guns, so... 

I feel like the low side pressure is too high - would a long undersized suction line cause that? 

Thanks


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

Sounds like the compressor is undersized. The low side is way too high, it should be in the 30-35 range and the condensor inlet and outlet should be around 130 deg. the fact that your condensor outlet is so much cooler than the inlet leads me to believe that either the compressor is too small or the thermal expansion valve is overfeeding the evaporator.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

jyanof said:


> I'm really late to the scene, but thought I'd share my experience doing this same scheme for a/c. Bill, it was interesting reading this thread because I went through a similar progression - didn't plan on doing a/c, saw the EVblue thing, didn't have room under the hood, but bought the 5k btu a/c unit from home depot, but I ended up installing it in the trunk.
> 
> Bottom line is that it only works ok for me and I'll definitely re-do it when I upgrade to lithiums (which are going to take a battery rack overhaul anyway).
> 
> ...


 
i like the condenser mounting, it sounds to me like i have the same problem, few2 came over and helped me with the welding, and said that my suction line is undersized, my pressure is not that high, and i get about the same results, I am going to try and use all the oem ac stuff to see if i can get it better, i think I will see a bit better performance, but the compressor may still be to small to cool, but i want to try everything i can first then get a bigger compressor. maybe by then it will be not-summer and i wont need it. thanks for the pics, it gives me some ideas.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

it is amazing, how cool that feels, you dont know unless you lived here and delt with it.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

what type of refrigerant was that unit originally designed to use and what evaporator are you using?


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Jyanof; Very nice layout and well done! The compressor takes up so little room by itself!
Jehan got it right on the money. Also, sounds like possible over charge, as 240 seems a bit high on the high side, but considering mis-matched components.
Instead of going to a larger compressor, maybe a second one with a set of checkvalves to isolate? have one run up to 90*, then the second one kick on at 90*. The way alot of newer high seer acs work is by running a smaller compressor under light load and then the larger one kicks on when the load beacomes high.
There is also variable speed compressors, but then the cost and complications go up.


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## jyanof (Nov 11, 2008)

jehan12413 said:


> what type of refrigerant was that unit originally designed to use and what evaporator are you using?


The side of the original window unit said R22 - I'm using the evaporator and expansion valve originally in the car (89' corolla). 



> the fact that your condensor outlet is so much cooler than the inlet leads me to believe that either the compressor is too small or the thermal expansion valve is overfeeding the evaporator.


This project was my first venture into refrigeration, can you help me understand why the inlet and outlet temp should be similar? Intuitively, it seems that the condenser and fan should be removing heat and cooling the refrigerant. I guess if the refrigerant is just above the condensation point and just enough heat is removed to condense the refrigerant, than inlet and outlet will be the same temp. But, wouldn't it be good to cool the liquid refrigerant as close to ambient temp too?



> Also, sounds like possible over charge, as 240 seems a bit high on the high side, but considering mis-matched components.
> Instead of going to a larger compressor, maybe a second one with a set of checkvalves to isolate? have one run up to 90*, then the second one kick on at 90*. The way alot of newer high seer acs work is by running a smaller compressor under light load and then the larger one kicks on when the load beacomes high.
> There is also variable speed compressors, but then the cost and complications go up.


I agree on the overcharge. We were trying different amounts and after a point, pressure just went up with no difference in temp. I don't think we took enough out at the end.

would the two compressors be in parallel or series? I'm thinking parallel, but just making sure. This might be a cheaper way of adding capacity since these units are cheap already. It would take more space though, and add some complexity.

Interesting that you mentioned variable speed compressors. Since I built the inverter, I set it up to do V/F speed control. It was more of an EE challenge for me since there's really no benefit for an undersize compressor, but I am able to control its speed. Of course, this compressor wasn't designed to change speed, so maybe it's good that I don't use the variable speed capability.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

jyanof said:


> The side of the original window unit said R22 - I'm using the evaporator and expansion valve originally in the car (89' corolla).
> 
> This project was my first venture into refrigeration, can you help me understand why the inlet and outlet temp should be similar? Intuitively, it seems that the condenser and fan should be removing heat and cooling the refrigerant. I guess if the refrigerant is just above the condensation point and just enough heat is removed to condense the refrigerant, than inlet and outlet will be the same temp. But, wouldn't it be good to cool the liquid refrigerant as close to ambient temp too?
> 
> ...


If you read some of my earlier posts on this subject, some of your questions are answered. I also posted a link way early in this tread, that shows the relationship of where vapor and liquid should reside, and it explains the refirgeration cycle.

Roy


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

jyanof said:


> This project was my first venture into refrigeration, can you help me understand why the inlet and outlet temp should be similar? Intuitively, it seems that the condenser and fan should be removing heat and cooling the refrigerant. I guess if the refrigerant is just above the condensation point and just enough heat is removed to condense the refrigerant, than inlet and outlet will be the same temp. But, wouldn't it be good to cool the liquid refrigerant as close to ambient temp too?


After a minute or two of running, the discharge line(compressor to condenser) should be burning hot, tap to test, but will seer the skin on lengthy contact. The liquid line(condenser to evap) should be a few degrees above ambient. If its too hot, too much gas may be getting through, or not condensing, or not enough heat rejection(condenser too small or fan not moving enough air)Cooling the freon as much as possible will help efficeincy, but that will change subcool and superheat(not really youre concern)


jyanof said:


> I agree on the overcharge. We were trying different amounts and after a point, pressure just went up with no difference in temp. I don't think we took enough out at the end.


Thats right where overcharge probably began. Normally, you would go a little over that point.


jyanof said:


> would the two compressors be in parallel or series? I'm thinking parallel, but just making sure. This might be a cheaper way of adding capacity since these units are cheap already. It would take more space though, and add some complexity.


Parallel.


jyanof said:


> Interesting that you mentioned variable speed compressors. Since I built the inverter, I set it up to do V/F speed control. It was more of an EE challenge for me since there's really no benefit for an undersize compressor, but I am able to control its speed. Of course, this compressor wasn't designed to change speed, so maybe it's good that I don't use the variable speed capability.


Try finding the right charge and use the v/f inverter to run the compressor a little faster. This will place more load on the little compressor, but you will get more capacity out of it. I honestly couldnt say what, if any adverse affects there would be. It would be the same electrically as speeding up any motor with a vfd. Mechanically, the scroll type compressor should do ok, my concern would be with a reciprocating piston compressor.


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## lrmills187 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bill,
How are you controlling the compressor? What are you using to turn it on and off.

Larry


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

lrmills187 said:


> Bill,
> How are you controlling the compressor? What are you using to turn it on and off.
> 
> Larry


 
I installed a 12v push botton switch in the dash, and I have a 20amp 120v icecube relay with a 12v coil, so when I push the button it sends 12v to the coil which switches the relay, and sends 120v power to the compressor from the inverter.


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

I asked about the refrigerant because a compressor designed for r-22 will have a shorter stroke and smaller bore than an identical horsepower compressor designed for r-12. Therefore if you run r-12 in an r-22 compressor you will not get as much compression and will only get about 60% of its rated cooling (I'm not sure about the scroll type compressors).
As far as the condensor it takes a large amount of heat for a substance to change states gas to liquid or liquid to gas. For example to heat water to the boiling point it takes a certain amount of heat but once there it then requires an enormous amount of heat to change it to steam with no additional temp rise. In the evaporator the air extracts a large amount of heat to change the refrigerant to a liquid with very little change in temp. Once in liquid form at the outlet any further decrease in temp is called subcool and normally is about 10 deg in an r-12 system.


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## lrmills187 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bill,
Any update on your AC project? I live in south Florida(Hot here too) and want to get my air in the ev fixed. I am thinking of using the compressor from a 5000 BTU window air conditioner(like yours), but use with with all OEM that are currently in the car. Just disconnect the standard car compressor and connect the electric compressor. Have you had any starting problems using a MSW inverter? I am told that a MSW inverter can cause the compressor to overheat. I have a 2500/5000 watt inverter, that I purchased on ebay.

Any suggestions(from anybody outthere) would be appreciated.

Regards,
Larry


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

lrmills187 said:


> Bill,
> Any update on your AC project? I live in south Florida(Hot here too) and want to get my air in the ev fixed. I am thinking of using the compressor from a 5000 BTU window air conditioner(like yours), but use with with all OEM that are currently in the car. Just disconnect the standard car compressor and connect the electric compressor. Have you had any starting problems using a MSW inverter? I am told that a MSW inverter can cause the compressor to overheat. I have a 2500/5000 watt inverter, that I purchased on ebay.
> 
> Any suggestions(from anybody outthere) would be appreciated.
> ...


yes I have been using it on the ride home from work, It works ok, but I think that I can do some things different to make it cool better, for instance I would use the stock evaporator because it is bigger and put it someware that it can get a lot of air flow, then I would use the stock lines and change the suction line on the compressor to match the stock set up, I did that rong on my car, I reduced the size of the stock suction line, which im told should not have been done, but even with all of that it still cools down enough to not sweat on the ride home, so im in no hurry to redue anything.


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## lrmills187 (Jan 11, 2010)

Have you had any problems with your inverter driving the compressor? I assume that your inverter is MSW(Modified Sine Wave). Did you wind up using the hard start kit, that you discussed in an earlier post.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

lrmills187 said:


> Have you had any problems with your inverter driving the compressor? I assume that your inverter is MSW(Modified Sine Wave). Did you wind up using the hard start kit, that you discussed in an earlier post.


well I am not entirily sure that it needed the hard start kit but I did get one. the problum was the ammount of power that it uses for that 10 second start up, my accessory battery was not able to give the power that it needed to start up. But I added an extra 105 ah deepcycle battery to it and now it works fine, but I do still have the hard start kit on it, dont know if it is helping any, but adding the battery did it for me. I replaced the first inverter with a 2000w 4000w surge, but that was before I added the battery, abd i still had the same problum, so the first inverter still might handle the load for cheaper, But i took it back to get the one that im using now, but you can try it and see, and if it dont handle the load you can take it back to HF and get a credit for it.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

the inverter seems to drive it fine.


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## resago (Sep 28, 2010)

so after all this, wouldn't you have come out better using a plate adapter and original compressor?

I know you are using a separate battery, but its also added weight.

seems like a motor with dual shaft running A/C, vacuum pump and steering pump keeps things simple and at least as efficient as a separate motor/inverter/battery running each system.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

resago said:


> so after all this, wouldn't you have come out better using a plate adapter and original compressor?
> 
> I know you are using a separate battery, but its also added weight.
> 
> seems like a motor with dual shaft running A/C, vacuum pump and steering pump keeps things simple and at least as efficient as a separate motor/inverter/battery running each system.


well doing it your way would have a cost of less range, with my way, I dont take away from the range of the car, and even with the added battery you are only talking 50lbs or so, so I dont notice any range loss at all. this set up was better for me, and my conversion because it was cheap and once I got the bugs worked out, it works good too. though I suppose the installation is just owner preferance, both ways have benifits and costs.


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Bill,

A couple questions from an A/C nubcake. I read the first 5 pages and the last 5 pages and didn't see my questions there, so forgive me if these have been answered... but I thought others might have the same questions as me so here goes:



> Well i did some research and guess what? it is a 5000btu window unit ac,but it says that it only needs about 4.5 amps of power to run, and 20 ampsfor10 seconds for start up.


First question: why can't you just buy a unit at Home Depot or wherever, gut the casing, and install it unmodified in your car? Whatever the part that gets cold (I think the evaporator from my vague understanding) and has the fan blow air into your room, you would just put that part inside the blower motor casing, right? After that, you just need the suitable power inverter and you're done... right? Clearly I'm missing something or this thread wouldn't be 18 pages.. 



> I asked some people that i know in the hvac bis. and they said it is possible to use, just evacuate and add some fill orifices to the lines and the compressor would not know the difference, now electric blue motors ( the place in flagstaff) says that it can use r134 referegerant, and my hvac friends confermed that the compressor would not care, fact is that the compressor might like the r134 better, because it needs less pressure, or something like that, any way I felt that it was worth a shot since it is 110 degrees here in phoenix.


Second question: Why do you need to change the refrigerant? Is one "auto-grade" or something? 

Third question: I was planning on doing something like this, but maybe downgrading the whole thing. My rationale was that the smallest one at Home Depot can sufficiently chill a small room. The inside of my CRX is like 1/10th that size.  So could some part of it be downgraded to make less requirements on the power inverter? For example, maybe going from a 1/2HP compressor motor (just guessing here) to a 1/16th motor and then take some of the freon out? Does anything along those lines make sense? My basic thinking is that it is just overkill for such a tiny car instead of a room.

Fourth: From your experience, how does all this compare to me taking an A/C system from a CRX that had it and running a direct DC or A/C motor to the compressor where the engine shaft used to be?

Much appreciated! Colorado gets pretty oven-like in the summers as well.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

1. You can.
2. If you are using some components from the car system you need to make sure the refrigerant is compatible.
3. Your car may be small but it has no insulation or thermal mass, it's like trying to cool a greenhouse.
4. Probably easiest.
My take anyway.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

jrp is correct, in my limited understanding, if you are using auto conponents, then you should use auto grade freon. now I think it would be easier to use the evaporater in the dash, then to duct the one that comes with it. and the one that im using is a cheapy from home depot, all id did is pull out the guts and put them in the car and have the ac lines made. but I had the suction line shrunk down one size, dont do that it is less efficent, so have it line made the same size, now you need to mount the condenser some where under the car or in the front, the way i did it did not work well, it was not getting enough air flow, so i had to move it. also i would recommend a 24v inverter instead of a 12v because the start up power is alot and the battery does not strain as much to deliver the needed power. how does it compair to using a second motor to turn the compressor, well they both have pros and cons, first using a second motor will use more pack power, reducing range, using the electric ac does not get as cold, but it does cool the car down. hope I answered all of your questions.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I can't imagine it needing too much power. I have a 5000 btu window AC and it only pulls about 60 watts.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That can't be right. It's only pulling half an amp at 120VAC?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yup. It's great for cooling just one room instead of the whole house. Power of one standard bulb and you get a small to med room cooled. That's why I don't understand why car ACs are so expensive/take away from range so much. I understand they're usually much smaller, but I think guys like this are really on to something.


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## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That can't be right. It's only pulling half an amp at 120VAC?


It's not. Most window units will have an energy efficiency rating in the 8 to 10 range (an EER or SEER), which is BTU per watt (or more correctly BTU per watt hr) averaged over time. So a 5000 BTU window unit with a 9 EER would pull roughly 5000/9 = 555 watts.

Once you chop up a window unit using different parts and refrigerants, there's no telling what the BTU and efficiency will be without measuring it. But it's unlikely that it will be greater than the manufacturer's rating.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sorry, it's a 8000 btu unit at 10.8 EER. The 60 watts is with it on low (measured via Kill-a-watt), I don't remember what it pulled on med or high as I rarely used it there, but at 60 watts it kept a small room cool in a Houston summer.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd still think the fan alone would draw that.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

the problem is converting dc power to ac power, if say it draws 5 amps continously to run the unit, then it takes roughly 25 amps of dc current from the battery, which is still ok, but here is the kicker, it takes around 20amps of ac current for ten seconds to start the compressor, care to guess how much dc current it takes to produce that much ac current, that is the reason I recommend a higher voltage inverter,which is also why cool blue motors only has an inverter for 120v dc because it the draw is roughly 1 to 1, a bit more with the 96v inverter from them.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

the ac unit in the picture works because it ont only gets its power from the battery, but from the alternator as well, the alternator will give the inverter enough current to start the compressor, in my application there is no alternator, there for you need enough power from the battery to start the compressor, 12v will work, but the battery will only lend enough current to start the compressor once and at full charge, then you need to top the battery back off again to get it to start the compressor again, or use a battery with a higher C rating, for me it was easier to just use a 24v inverter, to run it. im not sure the efficiency of the unit i use in my car, but it does cool the car down


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Sorry, it's a 8000 btu unit at 10.8 EER. The 60 watts is with it on low (measured via Kill-a-watt), ...


I'd say it has a switching inverter, and the kill-a-watt is sampling between the spikes of current. Many power meters are completely useless at measuring switching loads; they assume resistive loads.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

8000 BTU/hr is about 2.3 kW if the first conversion page I found was correct; I believe that the Coefficient Of Performance would not be better than 2 or 3. So that's at least 2300/3 = 770 W, plus losses.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Great WORK!! Can you share some info about 144v to 110v inverter?

---#*156* Originally Posted by *jyanof* on p16 ---
"So, i put together my own sine wave inverter that runs off the HV pack (144v nom)."


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Your working with an unknown match, all hvac system including auto a/c have to have a match between the consensing unit and evaporator unit.
> 
> There are two types of metering systems, piston/orifice and expansion device. If piston/orifice device, you will need to know exactly what size in order to match the btu of the compressor to the btu of the evaporator. The better way is to use an expansion device, for it operates via evaporator temperature. But one still needs to have somewhat of a match, so superheat/subcool is in the ballpark of the condensing unit.
> 
> ...


I've got a 12,000 btu window unit from LG. The fan runs all the time but the thermostat cycles the compressor dozens of times a day. Its built to cycle just like old fords used to cycle the compressor clutch for thermostatic control. The 5,000 btu unit in my shop also cycles the compressor on and off in response to the thermostatic setting. I've got the universal and mobile refrigeration licenses so if I wanted to keep the system on R-22 I could. In my shop I've got a NIB under dash unit compatible with R-12 or R-134A. A R-22 compressor running R-134A would actually pull less current due to the reduced pressure. As far as an inverter goes I'll be looking for an inverter designed to be driven by 110 or 220 VAC. As Eitscher pointed out one can strip off the input bridge rectifiers and feed DC straight into the invertor caps. At worst I'd expect to have a small DC motor controller feeding the caps from the traction batteries so that they don't get charged to too high of a voltage. I would try to avoid running the inverter from a twelve volt source, too many conversions and too many losses. With this set-up one would always have 120 VAC available on board even when AC (air conditioning) is not required. Also if you need vacuum for brakes or hydraulic power for power steering AC (alternating current) components are cheap and available.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Your working with an unknown match, all hvac system including auto a/c have to have a match between the consensing unit and evaporator unit.
> 
> There are two types of metering systems, piston/orifice and expansion device. If piston/orifice device, you will need to know exactly what size in order to match the btu of the compressor to the btu of the evaporator. The better way is to use an expansion device, for it operates via evaporator temperature. But one still needs to have somewhat of a match, so superheat/subcool is in the ballpark of the condensing unit.
> 
> ...


When charging a weird system like that for the first time I like to charge the system while the old lady has the system barreling down the freeway. Charge to minimum evaporator exhaust temp then add enough to bring it back up 5 degrees just to guard against freeze-up. Takes a set of 10' hoses on the manifold gage set though. With a modified home brew Frankenstein system books and charge scales will just not cut it.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

coulombKid said:


> I've got a 12,000 btu window unit from LG. The fan runs all the time but the thermostat cycles the compressor dozens of times a day. Its built to cycle just like old fords used to cycle the compressor clutch for thermostatic control. The 5,000 btu unit in my shop also cycles the compressor on and off in response to the thermostatic setting. I've got the universal and mobile refrigeration licenses so if I wanted to keep the system on R-22 I could. In my shop I've got a NIB under dash unit compatible with R-12 or R-134A. A R-22 compressor running R-134A would actually pull less current due to the reduced pressure. As far as an inverter goes I'll be looking for an inverter designed to be driven by 110 or 220 VAC. As Eitscher pointed out one can strip off the input bridge rectifiers and feed DC straight into the invertor caps. At worst I'd expect to have a small DC motor controller feeding the caps from the traction batteries so that they don't get charged to too high of a voltage. I would try to avoid running the inverter from a twelve volt source, too many conversions and too many losses. With this set-up one would always have 120 VAC available on board even when AC (air conditioning) is not required. Also if you need vacuum for brakes or hydraulic power for power steering AC (alternating current) components are cheap and available.


As far as I'm concerned everything that needs to be discussed has been covered here, if you know how to do it, then do it. I'm assuming you already have a condenser and evaporater on that vehicle, so just get a Masterflux unit and do it with what you have, its made for dc and has an adustable board, why reinvent the wheel. 

I dont care to be dragged in to this old subject, I'm unsubcribing.

Roy


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

well, think i would use the master flux if i were to do this again, just to not need the inverter, yes the system works, no its not ideal, if you have the funds use the master flux, if not the way i did it is a budget option. the inverter was my weakest link, soon after i went with a 120vdc to ac inverter, and havent had the same problems, except less range.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did you get the Blue Flash inverter?


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

i did end up getting the blue flash 120v inverter, it works well, i would like to try to build one myself but havent had the time to start.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

billhac said:


> hello all, I have been responding in the air conditioning options thread, but now it is time to start a new one. I came across this website a while back about a company, in flagstaff AZ that sells electric ac units for EVs, so i posted the link to there website, and got some responses saying that there unit looks like a small window unit ac that is modified to use in a car. Well i did some research and guess what? it is a 5000btu window unit ac,but it says that it only needs about 4.5 amps of power to run, and 20 ampsfor10 seconds for start up. I asked some people that i know in the hvac bis. and they said it is possible to use, just evacuate and add some fill orifices to the lines and the compressor would not know the difference, now electric blue motors ( the place in flagstaff) says that it can use r134 referegerant, and my hvac friends confermed that the compressor would not care, fact is that the compressor might like the r134 better, because it needs less pressure, or something like that, any way I felt that it was worth a shot since it is 110 degrees here in phoenix. so I have posted a link to electric blue motors website to look at there unit and compair it to the one that I bought on sale brand new for 79.99 at home depot today.
> 
> http://www.electricbluemotors.com/coolblue.html
> 
> ...


Hi all,
Just thought I'd cross post my initial efforts to address the need:

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?132197-Bootstrap-power-supplies

wish me luck!


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

billhac - excellent project. I enjoyed reading every post..
..
I also live in Phoenix, AZ. Yes it gets hot. And no - I don't use my AC all summer. My wife gets upset when I drive her car, because I tend to roll down the windows a lot. The heat isn't all that bad, especially when you are moving (look at it as your own free dry air sauna). I like a phrase I heard a few years ago ("Stick a fork in me - I think I'm Done!")
....
To reply to a post asking why Auto AC Systems are so expensive? Automotive AC Compressors are designed to run off a fan belt that is powered by the engine crankshaft (via the ballancer pulley). They also use a magnetic clutch assembly. The compressor and clutch assembly is designed to operate in the extreme environments encountered under a hood (ie: water splashing onto or around the components, mud, Ice, heat, etc, etc).
..
The main compressor specification in an automobile system is one that allows the compressor to perform at varying engine RPMs. Many "economy" cars use really cheap compressors and therefore suffer from engine ide temp loss (they tend to loose cooling when they idle in traffic too long).
...
billhac and few2many. If you need auto parts, or AC Parts give me a ring. I don't buy anything from costco or Autozone (or any retail auto parts outlets). I have a few auto parts distributorship connections (one for AC-Delco and Ford Parts, the other for General Auto Replacement parts). The AC-Delco and Ford Parts are the same as you get at the car dealers - why do I know this? Because "We" are the ones that distribute to the Ford and Chevy Dealers (they get their parts from us...). The general parts lines includes all makes and models (with over 14 warehouses spread accross the valley, we guarantee 1hr 30-minutes deliveries, anywhere in Metro Phoenix, on in-stock warehouse items that figure drops to 40-minutes). We have a Main warehouse (a virtual disney land of auto parts, and three distribution warehouses. Then we have the 11 satellite warehouses. We have trasfer drivers that just drive from the main warehouse to the distribution warehouses, then drivers that just drive from the distribution warehouses to the satellite warehouses. The individual warehouses have their own driver's that deliver parts to the customers.
..
The AC-Delco and Ford Parts Warehouse only has one main and two distribution warehouses (fewer drivers, and fewer costs - but the parts mark up at the dealership is along the line of our price + 80% to 150% (dependeing upon whether they are selling accross the counter at "full price" or 20% off to "trade".
..
I can usually walk in to any one of the warehouses and just pick the parts I need/desire up for a lot less than I could buy them from the outlets.
..
This goes for batteries as well. All of my Batteries for my solar power projects (including our solar AC conversion kits) come from "My Parts Wholesale Outlet". Yes I mark up 15% to 20% (Gotta still pay the office help) - but my point is that I may be able to drastically reduce "your" costs.
..
Oh yea, few2many - I also have an AC Contracting Business (we are seeing a radical increase in Solar Powered Home and Commercial AC systems). So I also have wholesale accounts to buy AC components as well.
..
Add the CNC Machine shop connection and you realize that anything is possible.
..
One last point. Automotive AC Systems use rubber lines in the AC lines to provide vibration dampening. Anchoring an AC Hard Line is not going to vibration proof your AC (it only eliminates line travels as a result of engine and vehicle vibrations). Using rubber ac lines eliminates the vibration movement throughout the system (another reason Automotive AC costs more - rubber AC lines cost more than copper or aluminum lines).
..
In any case - when you want something in Phoenix - Give me a call.
...
billhac - I'd like to see you car conversion. Call me.
..
Dave


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dataman19 said:


> billhac - excellent project. I enjoyed reading every post..
> ..
> I also live in Phoenix, AZ. Yes it gets hot. And no - I don't use my AC all summer. My wife gets upset when I drive her car, because I tend to roll down the windows a lot. The heat isn't all that bad, especially when you are moving (look at it as your own free dry air sauna). I like a phrase I heard a few years ago ("Stick a fork in me - I think I'm Done!")
> ....
> ...


hi dave, im in the process of building EV #2 so i will be needing a few things, the ac was not ideal, id did get the car cool enough to not sweat, but #2 will not have ac as it did not come with ac from the factory. it was very interesting to do the electric ac in the neon, and i had some help but i would do a few things different if i were doing ac in #2. i will be posting some pics of the build here in a couple of weeks, you can pm me with your phone # to come and see it.


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