# Conversion of a VW POLO with an AC industrial motor



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

*Welcome to my conversion of a VW POLO into an electric car.*​ 

The car is an ongoing project, started in August 2011. DVLA registered on February 2013.
The current power is 30HP nominal with 40HP peak (Motor limited).
This is an ONGOING project. Check back often!!​ 

*MAIN TOPICS:*​ 


How to use a standard, cheap, Induction motor to power your EV (Including voltage changes);​
All you need to know to modify an industrial VFD for high output and closed loop EV Use - Shown in the topics, fool-proof guide to be added by summer 2014!​
Using a cheap server power supply as your DC-DC converter (modifications to operate as a true CC supply by June 2014)​
Universal voltage charger (Capacitive/Inductive Based) - Cheap way to charge. Superseded by PFC charger however Ill make sure to have one of these as a backup ALWAYS.​
Advanced 3KW PFC corrected charger (1.5KW version by Feb 2014, fool proof guide by summer 2014!)​
Closed loop control using industrial automation control (On tests, details shown on last controller rev)​
Corsa B/C EPAS (Electric power steering) - Details/Pinout on page 30. Modifications to fit the Polo somewhere before (Feb 2013?)​
Battery monitoring using a cycle annalist and android app (Hopefully by Feb 2014)​
On-Board Backup generator - 3KW (Summer 2015)​
Efficient heat-Pump Heating and cooling (Planned!)​
Full Stand-alone EV Grade Inverter/Charger planned to be released by 2016​
Xenon (Low/High beam) and LED (DRL/High Beam) custom headlights - Tired of Chinese crap and glaring other drivers? (March 2014!)​
Solid State PWM heater control *Pag. 30*​
VW Gearbox Adapter for 020 and 02a* Pag. 30 *Its not compatible with the front mount on the golfs, but that should be easy to change. Dimensions are correct to +/- 0.20mm. Other cad files are available by request. feel free to comment and make some changes.​

Other future projects are reverse cycle air con for efficient heating/cooling and interface to an on-board removable the generator.


The topic will be upgraded with more information as the project goes on, so keep checking.
The project was designed on a budget, never compromising safety. Critical parts were thought during quite some time and there are attempts which are not presented here for simplicity. 

Efficiency was one of the key components, hence an AC setup together with a latest generation LIFePO4 battery pack. At some point (2016) I plan to take this project to OEM grade with a dedicated controller. Much of the hardware is being tested right now, the missing bits is some kind of interface between modules and the VFD fully replaced by an intelligent controller.
​ 
Update: As of Summer 2013 I started rebuilding the car. Higher Voltage battery pack, On-Board PFC Charger and new engine mounts are the main changes.
Final voltage was decided as 410V Nominal (320-500VDC) for several efficiency and safety reasons.

Details about public charging Stations will be provided soon, for those in the UK (Should be similar to other European countries), since the main pack is now on-board and I'm not lucky enough to have off-road parking.
​*Why convert to electric!?*​ 
A commonly asked question...​ 
On my particular case I will have an investment return due to cheaper insurance and no road tax (£240Year). The savings add up if the fuel cost (£20 instead of 60/month) and maintenance (£100 less each year in oil, coolant, filters, etc) are taken into consideration, and should help make for a better car with features such as air con, instant heating for winter and availability of mains power (230VAC or 400VDC) from the battery pack, saving me to carry additional equipment I often need (Generator, inverter, battery packs...)​ 
The project will continue slowly as i add updates. The whole setup was built from scratch to my individual needs and as such a lot of time effort and testing is required. Like many I have limited availability, hence progress will be split into several tasks over the course of a few years. 

I hope this project is a good inspiration to all those that are thinking in retrofitting a vehicle to electric. You will be able to do your own repairs, which to many people can be a saving on its own considering the prices garages charge and many times the poor workmanship provided (I've been a mechanic myself for over 6 years, gave up due to stress/time/quality related issues and I am taking an engineering degree now).​ 
*If you like the topic and find something useful, please add to the rating on the top right corner.*​ 







 



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(Original topic - Aug 2012)


Hi Everyone,

This topic will be for the conversion of my 99 VW Polo.

This Car will have an Industrial Ac Motor with a peak of 20KW. It will be driven in city to commute and the target is to have a minimum speed of 25 Miles over hills and a Maximum speed of 40 to 50 miles per hour with a range of 25 miles.

Yesterday, after driving 450M I got the motor, so my conversion is officially started, but I will probably take a year or so to convert.

Here are some pictures of my new motor:




















I will post a Video of the motor spinning. I have just tested it on all phases (I am using single phase power) and it works lovely!

I am planing to use this crankshaft end attached to the motor, however I haven't seen no one doing it this way. Is it just because no one has one or is the steel to hard? The guy on the engineering shop told me it would be fine 

Yes, I plan to keep the clutch, this is my first EV conversion, if I find I don't need it I may later take the flywheel off.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

What controller, are you planning on using? What did that motor come out of? Looks
like it was a machine type motor, high voltage and low amps.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Ivansgarage said:


> What controller, are you planning on using? What did that motor come out of? Looks
> like it was a machine type motor, high voltage and low amps.


An industrial VDF rated at 15KW Nom/20KW Peak. The motor should be good for 30KW/40HP peak to match the ICE if I ever need to upgrade. 

I have no idea where it came from, its a 4 pole motor. 
100nm up to 1400RPM, with maximum speed of 4000RPM @ 40nm with [email protected]


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)




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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> An industrial VDF rated at 15KW Nom/20KW Peak. The motor should be good for 30KW/40HP peak to match the ICE if I ever need to upgrade.
> 
> I have no idea where it came from, its a 4 pole motor.
> 100nm up to 1400RPM, with maximum speed of 4000RPM @ 40nm with [email protected]


30KW at 400 volts = 75 amps you will be pulling more amps than that
at 50 or 60 mph. Do you believe that stock motor will handle that kind 
of current? And last very long.

Read this thread.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...nduction-motor-rewinding-questions-77776.html


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Ivansgarage said:


> 30KW at 400 volts = 75 amps you will be pulling more amps than that
> at 50 or 60 mph. Do you believe that stock motor will handle that kind
> of current? And last very long.
> 
> ...


The current setup will have a peak of 20KW which will be arround 45Amp. If the conditions are favorable to get this power they will be short and limited to 10sec.

I can not pump 30KW into this motor with 400V, to do so I will have to raise the voltage, keeping the same amps, thats the reason I've chosen 15KW Nominal, otherwise the simplest approach would be to rewind the motor as it%2


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Another update,

I had to re-think about the clutch when I saw the numbers, so I have done my homework and I think I am going to skip it for the moment.

I have ordered a couple of parts to assemble in the motor shaft and they should be here by Friday. I have modified the clutch for direct drive as well.

Some more pictures,


































I have tried the assembly on the drill at 1550RPM and it didn't vibrate a lot, so should be fairly balanced, now I have to couple this to the motor. 









The picture was captured while spinning.

The log book is going into DVLA. Lets see what they ask for the conversion before taking the engine/gearbox out.

The VSD should be here tomorrow as well, its on the mitcham depot already.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

VDF has arrived today.

I have set up my infamous voltage doubler from the 220V mains, so I got about 650V at the capacitors, however no joy!

The stickers with the serial number have been removed for whatever reason as well. No nameplates on this unit.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I decided to open the unit to check for power on the fuse circuit and internal capacitors after the rectifier.





















I was not happy ith what I have found. The IGTB Module is shorted to GND on two of the outputs and the 3rd one is leaking.
The main controll board is not operating at all.

Called the seller, he told me there must have been a problem, but had to pay shipping fees again plus send the unit back, bla, bla... Ended up paying something for the damaged unit to avoid sending it back... The capacitors may come in hand later on...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

My Camera seems to be having a hard time with the focus adjusment. There is not a lot of light at this time of the day and the flash wont help.

Anyway I took some pictures of the IGBT module just to show here. I will open another topic elsewhere. I am finding it hard to see why did the module has blown the PCB as well, this usually doesnt happen as the driver fails first.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Man, what a shame about that VFD. Are you planing on using that same IGBT module or maybe swap it with something with more current?

You mentioned a voltage-doubler. Is this something you've discussed before and have a link to that? I'm interested in what kind of efficiency numbers you got.

JR


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

JRoque said:


> Hi. Man, what a shame about that VFD. Are you planing on using that same IGBT module or maybe swap it with something with more current?
> 
> You mentioned a voltage-doubler. Is this something you've discussed before and have a link to that? I'm interested in what kind of efficiency numbers you got.
> 
> JR



I haven't yet. I started the topic asking some advice about driving IGTB's and everyone started giving their own reasons why I shouldn't use a doubler but should have a 640V battery pack. I personally like the idea of having a 320V main supply, for security and for convenience as I could use the rectified output from the mains to directly drive the Aircon and other devices.
It would also save me a lot of money on BMS's as I will go with lithium.

I do Have a small prototype done with an inverter. Imput is 24V output is 320 square wave, output oscillator modified from 50Hz for 400Hz and a diode/capacitor voltage doubler on top of that. Works very well, feeding a 2HP VSD and Motor that I plan on using for Air Con/power steering.

You can find the topic here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/high-voltade-doubler-ev-igtb-driver-78511.html?p=320862#post320862

As for the VDF its really a shame. The IGTB module is not expensive at all, I can have it shipped for 240USD, the problem is when it burns the board goes with it.

I may use one of these plus the heat-sink of the failed VDS for my doubler if I choose to go with this approach.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I believe you can build a doubler with a bit more efficiency than the 92% quoted in the other thread but there will always be added losses. Have you looked into adding an inductor instead of just using a pump with capacitors?

If you're open to the idea of more cells in series to get to the ~600V you need but still want a ~300V pack so you can charge directly from mains, perhaps a few of contactors that would split and parallel your cells could do. 

If you have decided on using the doubler perhaps you can use it at the charger instead of the inverter. That way you eliminate the doubler losses from the battery driven system and put it in the A/C mains system where losses won't affect it much. You would have a ~600V pack but can charge it form ~300 mains.

If you find the cost of a doubler, the more cells needed to reach 600V and/or the additional wiring and BMS cost is getting to be substantial, you might want to look instead at how much would it cost to rewire your motor for ~300V.

Got any pictures of your Polo you can share? I had the impression that a Polo was what's known here in US as a VW Golf. But at the 1900 lbs you mention, it sounds lighter than expected.

JR


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

JRoque said:


> Hi. I believe you can build a doubler with a bit more efficiency than the 92% quoted in the other thread but there will always be added losses. Have you looked into adding an inductor instead of just using a pump with capacitors?
> 
> If you're open to the idea of more cells in series to get to the ~600V you need but still want a ~300V pack so you can charge directly from mains, perhaps a few of contactors that would split and parallel your cells could do.
> 
> ...


I was answering a question on other topic regarding this. 
I have no experience using coils or where to get the proper ones. Thats one of the drawbacks on my electronics knowledge.

I would also be happy to use 600VDC if, as you said, I could find a booster to charge the batteries, that would limit the output from the socket to 10Amp (10A @ 230V + 2.2-2.4KW). I would also need a DC DC converter to feed the Aircon/Heater/Power supply at 320V. 

I understand that the first two could be run with PWM, not sure about the power supply for the 12VDC thought.

Rewire the motor is out of question, I would need a custom VFD or controller and the actual cost to rewind the motor itself, both be cost in excess of 1500USD, I rather buy another 3KW of lithium batteries with that much money.

I don't at the moment. Its on a small garage, I can post pictures of a similar car.



























This images have been copied from this website
http://www.volkstorque.co.uk/vt/vehicles-sale/54345-1-6-glx-polo-mk4-reduced.html

The Car weights 2100lbs empty with 1/4 fuel tank (2G.)
I would estimate that my conversion would be about 1950-2000lbs without Aircon or 2100lbs with AirCon and a 5.5KW Battery pack, good for 30 miles.

Regards


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Okay, another update...

I got the bolt on hub with the exact dimensions of my clutch plate.
This should do a very good job for a fraction of the price an engineering shop would charge.

This is my template:









And here are my parts.

































I will have to drill 2 extra holes on the hub to match the four on the clutch plate.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Today I took the rivets of the clutch center assembly. They were extremely hard to remove without bending the plates as they are pressure fitted. 

Had to grind both sides, luckily I was able to do it without damage.

I am quite happy with my results.

So Far I've spent less that 100$ on the coupler, wich is far universal and protects the transmission components from some shocks, like when changing gears.

Here are some pictures of the complete assembly. It was a little dirty as this was an used clutch. The center section is floating, so it will avoid any imbalance issues.









Here is a picture after cleaning









And here is everything assembled on the motor.























Next step will be to find some stainless steel studs and some spacers to replace the nuts

I am quite sad that no one is participating on the topic. This is meant to e an affordable and easy to duplicate city car that people could make with 7000$ or so. I want to hear more from you guys!


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi, I am not an expert but in your design all the force will go to the 4 bolts because those 2 pieces connected together are not touching on the big surface area, the bolts will twist and break. ( maybe not the best explanation but my english is kind of limited in technical terms)

You can see pictures of my adapter in my build thread. Link is in my signature.

Good luck.


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

cts_casemod said:


> I decided to open the unit to check for power on the fuse circuit and internal capacitors after the rectifier.
> 
> View attachment 14062
> View attachment 14063
> ...


Too bad you got a bad inverter.
Were your plans use it unmodified?

I an curious since I am experimenting with a smallish inverter which I want to use as controller for a set of large IGBT's in my EV project. Kind of preliminary description may be found here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/saftronics-inverter-78823.html 
Regards

Agust


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> Hi, I am not an expert but in your design all the force will go to the 4 bolts because those 2 pieces connected together are not touching on the big surface area, the bolts will twist and break. ( maybe not the best explanation but my english is kind of limited in technical terms)
> 
> You can see pictures of my adapter in my build thread. Link is in my signature.
> 
> Good luck.


Hi, this is funny I have been looking into your conversion last week. Looks pretty good. Where did you get your adapter? I first thought about doing it your way, but I certainly wouldn't be able to center the plate on position.

And Yes, you are right, at 300nm this bolts will be teared apart. The ones I plan to use later are stainless steel, with proper washers and spacers and 8mm diameter, instead of the 6 I've used for test. They will be 3x as strong.

I am sure I can get away with them, due to be using an AC motor and the springs being able to absorb major impacts . Users of Series wound DC motors that may want to replicate my design must be aware of this and make their own tests.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Agust Sigurdsson said:


> Too bad you got a bad inverter.
> Were your plans use it unmodified?
> 
> I an curious since I am experimenting with a smallish inverter which I want to use as controller for a set of large IGBT's in my EV project. Kind of preliminary description may be found here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/saftronics-inverter-78823.html
> ...



Hi August,

This next one coming will be used unmodified. I have no reason to require more power for the time being, but that may change in the future, as I plan to use a Generator or a true motor assist scheme but I may leave that for my Uni last year project or something. Time will tell.

One thing you need to be aware is that you can not just replace the IGBTs on your VFD.

That would work right for V/Hz mode, where you just control the speed, but on a car what your looking into is regulating the torque. Just like a ICE if you are moving at the motorway at 80MPH and 3000RPM when you hit the clutch the engine will rev much higher because it is working in torque mode.

Problem with your approach is after you got a IGBT driver and IGBT's you have more power, but now your controller will be unable to tell how much current you are using, or if you keep the current measuring device it will limit the current to the same level, so you need to modify this circuit. Also you must muke sure your VSD will support Vector mode. Tis can be done sensor less or with an encoder on the motor shaft. 

Each VDF has a different approach. Some of them will measure the DC current and calculate how much will go over each phase (1/3), others will have a current transformer on each of the phases, others this will be a relevant part of the IGBT modules.

End of story: This can be done, yet you need to do your research and see if the hassle will be worth it. Also it will not be cheaper that buying a standard VSD, I say if you have the time and money it will be a good way to learn, if you just want to do your (one) car, its too much work.

My advice, open your VSD and find data sheets for the power section. This will help you understand whats going on and modify it.

Eric went this way because there is no commercial unit available for is motor
I believe he is the best guy to give you an idea of what to look into:

http://etischer.com/awdev/


Regards


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Where did you get your adapter?



The big spline part I got it with the motor, I got a new clutch disk matching my transmission and the piece between those 2 was done by a friend who is a machinists I just drilled and tap it.


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

cts_casemod said:


> Hi August,
> 
> This next one coming will be used unmodified. I have no reason to require more power for the time being, but that may change in the future, as I plan to use a Generator or a true motor assist scheme but I may leave that for my Uni last year project or something. Time will tell.
> 
> ...



Hi again and thanks for your advice.
I have given some thought to most of the issues you point out for me, but I am willing to accept some more if offered.

Firstly I plan to do my conversion on a car with an automatic tranny with a lockable torque converter. I believe that will allow for fair degree of driveability in V/f mode.
Secondly I consider regen as a bonus I can live without. Vector mode is therefore less important and currently am I considering using standard industrial induction async motor.
Third: I have been playing with a miniature Saftronics inverter with PS11034 IGbt's insde. These contain level converters driver circuits and safety logic to protect the output transistors. My plans are to disconnect these transistors and route their input lines instead into optocoupler driver circuits capable of driving the large IGBT's. Of course I will have to furnish isolated driver supplies for the drivers etc.
Forthly: I am doing this project for fun and for learning from it. I will not be spending any serious amount of money on it (read: BATTERIES) untill I see the light and become convinced that the motor/controller/tranny issues are solved. If I burn up my VFD and IGBT's there will hopefully be no harm done and I may look at other solutions - even DC motors if I learn to stop hating carbon dust.
B.t.w: I have read all of etischer's posts with admiration. His project was a great success and difficult to match. 

Regards

Agust


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Agust Sigurdsson said:


> Hi again and thanks for your advice.
> I have given some thought to most of the issues you point out for me, but I am willing to accept some more if offered.
> 
> Firstly I plan to do my conversion on a car with an automatic tranny with a lockable torque converter. I believe that will allow for fair degree of driveability in V/f mode.
> ...


I think you have nothing to loose. While I dont believe you will want to drive with V/Hz only mode, you will be able to have a working prototype and later you can use it to add some current sensors and add torque control.

If you can lock the torque converter you will still have regeneration as long as it stays locked it works like a manual and regen is also supported in V/Hz mode. I like regen in the way that it helps to brake and works like ABS, improving the handling of the car in wet weather as the wheels do not fully lock.

I may go your way and develop a circuit to drive the IGBT from an opto sensor. The new VSD has arrived and the IGTBS are rated at only 50Amp


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

First run of the motor today 

VSD came to life as soon as I attached the AC Voltage doubler.

Voltage has been very stable at 650V+ from a single phase 230VAC power supply. For this I have used the damaged VSD capacitors and bridge rectifier.



















I have to set up the motor. Its making a horrible noise when deacelerating, shaking the whole house. Also some issues when runing.

The shaft is quite strong even at 1or 2Hz it can not be stoped by hand.

Here are some updates pictures


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The problems with the motor were caused by a high inrush current causing an overspeed, which caused the drive to stop the motor and so on. 

This was caused at low frequencies. At high frequencies I have to implement a soft start as the motor revs too quicly, causing noise when starting. Once up to speed it runs smooth. On tests I've run at 10Hz or 300RPM with about 3Amp power comsumption and a voltage drop of 5V across the doubler and a max speed of 50Hz or 1440RPM.

Next week if I have the time I will interface the VSD with the polo Throttle body, so I can regulate the speed.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Updates, updates...

Motor now revving with the polo throttle body.All Issues solved, sensor-less torque vector now working, speed goes from 500 to 3000RPM. 
The throttle pot doesn't go any lower than this, I will later use the internal Idle switch to disable the motor, so should operate within 25 to 150% torque output.
If this is not enough I will use a comparator to have a true zero.
This is a 1440RPM 4 Pole motor.

Motor fall rate time can be programmed which is excellent to sincronise gears.

Very smooth acceleration (Rate of acceleration also programmable)


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Am I reading this right? you're using speed control and not torque control, where the motor is programmed to ramp up and down on timer and the pedal gives the speed command? 

If thats what you're saying, That might cause problems on down shifts, since downshifting causes the engine to speed up due to a change in gear ratio. The motor will still be ramping down on a timer and it will experience a torque surge if you downshift


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

subcooledheatpump said:


> Am I reading this right? you're using speed control and not torque control, where the motor is programmed to ramp up and down on timer and the pedal gives the speed command?



I am using both V/Hz and torque control. 
The clutch pedal switches between modes, so if I am pressing the clutch there is no Regen and I can use the throttle to set my desired motor speed in order to sincronise with the gearbox. There is a programmable fall time to make it easier. If I am down shifting the motor offers little resistance and as you say it will rev up. As soon as I release the clutch I have torque control with a programmable amount of regen, so if I am not pressing the gas pedal the motor will regenerate, which in turn will slowly stop the car just like an ICE would do.
If I use the brake pedal I have full Regen available.

If I am going down a small hill I can just press the clutch to let the motor flywheel to keep the vehicle speed, If I am going to fast I release the clutch, just like an ICE.

In normal driving conditions I am only using torque control, however it would be difficult to sincronise using this mode as the motor tends to either go full speed, due to the small amount of torque required, or Regen, which will quickly stop it, if out of gear.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Nice thread! I'll be keeping an eye on your progress! Curious to see how the voltage doubler you are using works under heavy loads.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

For anyone trying this conversion, I found that the gearbox is way to small and the output shaft (to the wheels) doesn't have enough space due to the electric motor size.

Lets see if I can have a way to solve this... Anyone out there with any experience on vw polo or lupo?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

If someone wants to take a look I am also posting at another forum.

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=3240&PID=39189&#39189


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> If someone wants to take a look I am also posting at another forum.
> 
> http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=3240&PID=39189&#39189


You are not the first one with that problem. Did you check out Yabert's Smart build, especially post http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235100&postcount=57 and up? You could easily cut the flange of your motor and some of the cooling fins.

hth
Ektus.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Ektus said:


> You are not the first one with that problem. Did you check out Yabert's Smart build, especially post http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235100&postcount=57 and up? You could easily cut the flange of your motor and some of the cooling fins.
> 
> hth
> Ektus.


I thought about that before, but the drive shaft CV Joint goes right into the motor, deeper than the fins by about 1.5cm. I could, like you say cut the flange and some fins, but I would still need a custom made plate with about 2" thick to accomodate the CV Joint. 
Next weekend I will take a look at the Ibiza Gearbox, by then I should be able to make a conclusion.

I will have a look at Yabert's smart build, thought.


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## electricpolo (Mar 15, 2011)

*Re: Conversion of a VW POLO to electric*

I have done a 2001 Polo a year ago & now have 18000 electric kilometres on it.
There are a few pitfalls & traps with such a little car as the Polo but once these are overcome, it is a great little runabout.
Here is the link to my conversion pages.
http://www.digitalhometech.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=68


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Where do you guys machine the adapter plates? I would like to find something more on a budget but all I see are about 600USD++

Today I started with the new Polo. Some more updates
I can finally have access to the gearbox for the measurements.
No tools to take the rest of the stuff away today. I must bring them tomorrow from my toolbox at work.






























The AirCon was still charged. It wasn't working thought. I need to check what was wrong with it after all.


I also opened the other gearbox. I have received some excellent tips from Brian @ http://www.brokevw.com
Now I have a 020 transmission open and I am thinking what do do with it. 

Some people have advise me to use direct drive.
To be honest i don't know what to do anymore. There are so many options!

Funny, when I went to scrap the other car I was surprised it was lighter that what I thought by about 150-200lbs. That has to be a good thing.

Here is a picture of the other gearbox on the car and where it sits.
Note the distance on the shaft. Its much longer.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

New updates...

_If you are not aware, the purpose of this thread is to make a car that is readily available worldwide, cheap and that you can reproduce with minimum cost and effort.

The gearbox change happened as many Polo owners known these have a reputation to fail and are among the most expensive gearboxes to find due to their wide use. This also makes the car cheap as the repair is usually worth more than the car itself._

So going back to topic again, after having all the dimensions and assembling the gearboxes on their working positions I finally confirmed that the space is more that enough to simply move the transmission to the left, and modify both transmissions accordingly. I will still need to make an adapter for the gear change mechanism and a bracket to hold the transmission as the angle is different, but these should have a minimum cost.

I will also order some parts for my gearbox as the last idiot that did the clutch job made a big mess reusing old parts (This 97K was replaced by one with twice the mileage and never opened).

Here are some pictures

(I can not upload them now - Each time it rains the 3G Base Station goes mad!!!)


I will soon have to worry about the motor coupler again.
My motor also has an outer groove that may create some trouble as I can not use a flat aluminum piece. I am going to start looking into this.


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## Tomppa (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi!



> Anyone out there with any experience on vw polo or lupo?


Hehehe I'm doing also conversion on a Polo. Mine's a bit older. Though it seems to me that the gearboxes are almost the same. I had the same problems with it. Kostov 9" (8,66" to be precise) just barely fits, but it is the largest motor that will not hit the drive shaft when using stock gearbox.
You are right about those gearboxes. They don't last very long. I replaced the original after ~180k kilometers. Maybe in the future after next gearbox will be done I'll go direct drive...

Here's my conversion, take a look!
Tomi


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## electricpolo (Mar 15, 2011)

Speaking from experience with my finished conversion, here are some points you may want to consider.
My background is metal fabrication & mechanical engineering with some electronics thrown in & I have been tinkering with cars for 35 odd years.

The largest motor you can fit is an Impulse 9 or something with similar dimensions. 
Anything longer will not fit into the chassis. Even with a 9" diameter motor, you will still need to machine out a small scallop to allow the CV joint flange to fit. It interferes with an Impulse 9" motor by about 5mm.
The gearbox should stay in it's original postion. If you move it, you will have all sorts of troubles with the drive shafts & the gear shift linkages.
Retain the gearbox and the clutch. You won't need all the gears though. I only use 2nd & 3rd for normal driving. Never use 4th or 5th. Only ever use 1st as a crawler gear to get up on a car ramp.
3rd gear @ 5000rpm is 100km/hr
There is not enough room to put a big enough motor for direct drive in this car & you have the diff/transaxle problem to contend with.
I originally did my conversion with no flywheel or clutch. Although I have driven over 18000km now with it like this, I am going to put the flywheel & clutch BACK IN! It will make it a smoother vehicle to drive at very low speed & wll let anyone else be able to drive it too. There have been a few occassions where inexperienced people have crunched the gears because the motor is spinning & they have tried to put it into gear.
A clutch fixes that problem & then it will be up to you if you use it or not. The gearboxes are not very strong but providing you don't abuse the box it will be fine. A standard clutch will be fine too even though the electric motor has more torque.
The adaptor plate for an Impulse 9 is made from flat 12mm aluminium plate that I machined & dowelled for motor/gearbox alignment.
SEAT Ibiza & VW Polo gearboxes are identical for all intents & purposes.

I used 45 x 130Ah LiFePO batteries which give me a confortable range of somewhere between 100 & 150km depending on how I drive it. 
My car still has 5 seats and weighs 40kg more than original (20kg front & 20kg back). 
There is not enough room to put in batteries that are any larger if you want to keep 4/5 seats & even if you could, you would have to lose some of the seats as not to overload the car's GVM.
The batteries will have to be spread around in the car to get the weight distribution fairly right. Mine has 13 under the boot floor close to the back axle, 14 under the back seat where the fuel tank used to be & 18 in the engine bay.
This is a link to my web pages that show how I did it all http://www.digitalhometech.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=68


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tomppa said:


> Hi!
> 
> Hehehe I'm doing also conversion on a Polo. Mine's a bit older. Though it seems to me that the gearboxes are almost the same. I had the same problems with it. Kostov 9" (8,66" to be precise) just barely fits, but it is the largest motor that will not hit the drive shaft when using stock gearbox.
> You are right about those gearboxes. They don't last very long. I replaced the original after ~180k kilometers. Maybe in the future after next gearbox will be done I'll go direct drive...
> ...


Hi Tomppa,

I have been looking for your conversion before, it looks very nice. The paint job come into my mind 
How are you going so far? Have you finished?

They are much of a problem on the newer cars. The 1.6 has something like 75 or 80HPs and they don't like people suddenly revving the engine and releasing the clutch. For your car thats actually a good mileage, the newer ones fail from 50K Miles or 80K km.

Doesn't your polo have the same engine Bay as the old golf? with the two side mounts on the rear of the engine and another one on the front?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

electricpolo said:


> Speaking from experience with my finished conversion, here are some points you may want to consider.
> My background is metal fabrication & mechanical engineering with some electronics thrown in & I have been tinkering with cars for 35 odd years.
> 
> The largest motor you can fit is an Impulse 9 or something with similar dimensions.
> ...


Hi,

I think we already spoken on AEVA forum

Thank you for your comments.

You should follow the rest of the thread as some of the info you posted wasn't exactly what I was looking for.

_The largest motor you can fit is an Impulse 9 or something with similar dimensions. Anything longer will not fit into the chassis_
First I am not using DC Motors, so some things are not the same
My Motor is 9.5 Inches wide BUT only 15 inches long as I doesn't need the space for the commutator. It has a 12" Wide Flange unlike the DC's (In my opinion makes things easier as your DC is flat)
AC Motors are cooled from the outside, unlike DC. My Motor is wider and there is no way I could use a 085 type gearbox unless it was driven by a chain. 

_The gearbox should stay in it's original postion. If you move it, you will have all sorts of troubles with the drive shafts & the gear shift linkages._
Its easier to say that do. First my original car had a damaged gearbox, which was changed twice during his life as an ICE. One was re-manufactured, other was second hand. Both Failed withing 20k miles.
I don't want to go thought the hassle again, so the same gearbox is a NO. Welding drive-shafts? Anytime  That was to be the least of my problems.

_Retain the gearbox and the clutch. You won't need all the gears though. I only use 2nd & 3rd for normal driving. Never use 4th or 5th. Only ever use 1st as a crawler gear to get up on a car ramp.
3rd gear @ 5000rpm is 100km/hr_
I have originally thought about this. I will use my car mostly on town, cost is an issue, but also efficiency. I don't know what the loss of efficiency would be having dead weight on the motor shaft going from nothing to 4 or 5k RPM several times in a journey, although this could be compensated by the Regen.

_There is not enough room to put a big enough motor for direct drive in this car & you have the diff/transaxle problem to contend with._
This guy has a very similar setup to mine:
http://www.evalbum.com/1149
He started with SLA's. If I have a differential with a ratio of 6.5 to 1 like he has it could be possible. Its like driving in 3rd all the time. Diff ain't a problem, actually it gives me more space and an extra 6KW of batteries for the same weight.


_I originally did my conversion with no flywheel or clutch. Although I have driven over 18000km now with it like this, I am going to put the flywheel & clutch BACK IN! It will make it a smoother vehicle to drive at very low speed & wll let anyone else be able to drive it too. There have been a few occassions where inexperienced people have crunched the gears because the motor is spinning & they have tried to put it into gear._
You are absolutely right. I am thinking in a system where you select the gear and some air operated mechanism applies a constant light pressure against the gearbox. This would change once it was synchronized (The low force was for the sincro ring to slow the shaft. No idea if it will work, but worth a look once I get the thing going.

_The gearboxes are not very strong but providing you don't abuse the box it will be fine. A standard clutch will be fine too even though the electric motor has more torque._
No way I am going to put an 085 on the Polo again. But I just remember yours is from 2001, does it have the same gearbox? *[EDIT]*it has I just checked your pictures.
Not so sure about the clutch. Yours is a 16v you may get away with it, mine is a 8V. Believe me at 300nm it will slip badly.

_SEAT Ibiza & VW Polo gearboxes are identical for all intents & purposes._
Thats like a lemon and an orange. The 085 is used on both, but the SEAT, golfs, passats, etc have a much broader range of transmissions that you can not fit on the Polo. Most are up to *3"* longer. Even the diesel Polos used an 085 thats why they were only offered on IDI or SDI, up to 65HP. The later TDI was a 3 Cyl for this reason with about the same power and together with the lupo/arosa it must be the only car of its age that didn't had all the range of motors from VW, like the 1.8 and 2 liter, not to mention the V6.
I still have space available and my motor can make 28KW *Nominal* at 4350RPM with 60KW Peak, so I want to invest in a transmission that can last the life of the car and allow for future upgrades.

Still have to think about the batteries. I want them to be removable in packs of 30KG/3KW.
I ike your battery box under the back seat. 
Should also send some weight into the back for better use of the rear brakes (Weight distribution)
The welding is also very professional.

I'm curious, how have you got your ABS to work? Have you kept the engine ECU or have you wired the signals directly to the ABS Unit? How long does your AC evaporator keep the temperature after you stop? What about if you're driving slowly?

I am in between using a separate AC Motor or the modified car alternator, keeping the same bracket and P. Steering pump.

Regards, Carlos


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## Tomppa (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi Carlos



> How are you going so far? Have you finished?


I'm far from finished. I'll start the disassembly in december when I'll get the garage to work in.
I planned that I will purchase all the major parts (motor, batteries and controller) before the construction will begin. Next step is ordering controller and charger. I have the motor and batteries already.



> For your car thats actually a good mileage, the newer ones fail from 50K Miles or 80K km.


Wow.

I believe the reason for my first gearbox lasting that "long" is the horsepower and torque. I have only 40kw/55hp and 96nm. My gearbox is four-speed 084 which might affect the durability also. 


I was told that I should change the gearbox oil often. Don't remember what the mileage was. 



> Doesn't your polo have the same engine Bay as the old golf? with the two side mounts on the rear of the engine and another one on the front?


I don't know if some Golf desing has the same mount places. Maybe the 1,3l Golf has? I think Polo's engine bay design is somewhat unique.
I have 2 mounts on the gearbox, left and rear, and only one with the motor, right mount. No mount goes to front.

I'll keep an eye on your conversion!
Tomi


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Carlos

Have replied to your direct drive thread, but your motor sounds quite strong. D you have spect for motor and controller performance? I think if you can get a decent rpm range and your motor has a decent period of sustained max torque a direct drive to the diff with 6:1 ratio as you mentioned a page back would be good for your application. 

Ideally I would recommend stripping your gearbox and removing the diff and gear and a few gears and fabricating a machined aluminum reduction transmission to hold the diff in the original location with the motor directly bolted to it, will save space and weight, but cost a bit for fabrication, though to a huge amount if you salvage the gears from your transmission! Actually I'm quite partial to this approach and have thought of doing it for a long while now for a flexible city vehicle with some limited motorway/higher speed driving, say max 120kmh.

Do you have some pictures showing the space to work with and your motor also?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Its an industrial motor. 
The specs are based on my VSD. The motor power can be changed with a rewire. My VSD/VDF Is a fugi AP300. Claims up to 300% torque at standstill which is 98×3nm. 

I have all the gearbox parts, just don't like the ideia of building a diff. myself. 
My motor can overdrive. I've run up to 4krpm. Torque is reduced accordingly.

My problem is not space. Its weight and efficiency. Its okay to shift gears up, shift them down is wastefull and while you wait for the gears to sinc you are not keeping the attention on the road. You will never shift enought to make full use of the gearbox anyway.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tomppa said:


> Hi Carlos
> 
> I'm far from finished. I'll start the disassembly in december when I'll get the garage to work in.
> I planned that I will purchase all the major parts (motor, batteries and controller) before the construction will begin. Next step is ordering controller and charger. I have the motor and batteries already.
> ...


Its the std polo system then. Crap  
That's what they've been designed for. Problem is VW thought it to be a good idea to put them in heavier cars with twice as much power. 

Are you sure you want to convert the same car thought? I must warn you it's very time consuming. I thought it to be easier before starting to be fare. You're likely to stay without car for a couple of months while you make your adaptations and find some new problems as you go along.


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## Tomppa (Jun 30, 2012)

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I have two cars. Other one is BMW 316i.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tomppa said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I have two cars. Other one is BMW 316i.


Lol! You're gonna end up addicted to the BMW and forget about the Polo


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more updates for this weekend, 

Currently I am busy doing my investigation on the High Voltage DC-DC Converter. Some ideas are arising and I should have a small prototype built soon.

I am also considering power from a single source 144V battery, but for now 320 is the goal.

This week I finally got the greasy ICE out, along with the transmission.

The 020 Transmission is on place and I have been taking measurements to make the brackets as this is a completely different transmission, and will require new securing brackets and an adaptation for the gear selector mechanism to use the polo cable system.

Some pictures:








Here the engine out. 







And here is the engine bay without all the crap we don't need anymore 
I've kept the drive-shafts on place to make sure they were in the exact place as they will need to me modified later.








Official figures: The gearbox is 3" longer and distance between drive-shafts is 11mm wider.
There is no provision for the lower mount, so I will have to make one attached to the electric motor.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more pictures with the gearbox in place to make some measurements.















If you ever wondered how to make an easy drawing for your gearbox to be able to check everything here is the way. You use some (new) CV Gator grease where the GB attaches to the ICE. Later you use some sheets of paper on top of this. The grease keeps them secure. You just need to mark some marks to know where both sheets come together and here you go! A perfect print!
















Notice the transmission is about 6cm inside the gearbox. The right one, which is not visible is too short by 3 cm.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that trans look really big in there! Is there room for your motor CTS?

Making good progress though, looking good sir. Going to be a good little car when you finish. Can't wait!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow that trans look really big in there! Is there room for your motor CTS?
> 
> Making good progress though, looking good sir. Going to be a good little car when you finish. Can't wait!


Thank you. Its going to take me quite some time to finish. 

Without the clutch I should have some clearance, but I may be changing my mind again and put a clutch on it. At the moment I have one more inch to play with.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Is there room to push the motor into the bell housing? One thought is to integrate the adaptor and front flange/bearing holder ie removing all that extra length? Maybe not necessary, just a thought, would help with keeping the clutch. Only problem then is mounting, which isn't one if the motor dia is smaller than bell housing.

What do you think?

Also, probably won't need gears much, 3rd around town and maybe 4th to keep up with highway traffic. Which means occasional gear changes for only this should be a breeze, with the added bonus of speed control when changing so your motor can match itself to transmission speed to give the synchros an easy time.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Is there room to push the motor into the bell housing? One thought is to integrate the adaptor and front flange/bearing holder ie removing all that extra length? Maybe not necessary, just a thought, would help with keeping the clutch. Only problem then is mounting, which isn't one if the motor dia is smaller than bell housing.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Also, probably won't need gears much, 3rd around town and maybe 4th to keep up with highway traffic. Which means occasional gear changes for only this should be a breeze, with the added bonus of speed control when changing so your motor can match itself to transmission speed to give the synchros an easy time.


I will start with only 20HP from 1500RPM. Later I will improve the VSD, and will get an 208V Motor, so I should have about 60-70HP from 3000RPM.

At the moment my power is quite reduced, so I may need to use the clutch more often. I am just worried with the down-shifts, (3rd to 2nd, etc) although I could maybe get someway to sync the motor, maybe using a sensor on the gear I want to engage.

In Theory everything should fit inside the bell housing if I cut the shaft. I am not very happy with that idea. I believe I need an extra 4-7cm to use the clutch

Clutch-less, fits nicely. I will have to measure the shafts tomorrow to have some real clearance figures.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS

Like I said, if you are having an adapter flange made to attach the motor to the trans, encorporate the motor's front bearing into it with the same motor boot pattern and replace the front of the motor. Got any pics of your motor? That could save you all you need to keep the clutch, there's normally unnecessary length in those. You could have the shaft shortened and integrate a flywheel flange into the shaft and increase the front bearing size to run outside the adapter so the flywheel is right against the adapter rather that away from it. A lot like EV Propulsion has in their adaptor design. Can't sketch it up right now, sorry.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> CTS
> 
> Like I said, if you are having an adapter flange made to attach the motor to the trans, encorporate the motor's front bearing into it with the same motor boot pattern and replace the front of the motor. Got any pics of your motor? That could save you all you need to keep the clutch, there's normally unnecessary length in those. You could have the shaft shortened and integrate a flywheel flange into the shaft and increase the front bearing size to run outside the adapter so the flywheel is right against the adapter rather that away from it. A lot like EV Propulsion has in their adaptor design. Can't sketch it up right now, sorry.


Hi tylerwatts

Pictures of my motor are on page 1 of the topic.

The front of my motor is not the actual problem, from the top of the bearing to the top of the front the distance is 12mm only. The problem is the shaft.
The shaft is 8cm long and I have to place the flywheel adapter right on the end of it. The only option is to cut the shaft by about 4 cm.

I am thinking to cutt the end of the crankshaft, machine to 38mm and and attach this to a tapper bush to hold it in place. The actual problem I am having is to find a competent machine shop that can get the tolerances right and can make a STRAIGHT hole (They usually do it angled).

I've done something similar on an Injection pump last year. The bushes had to be machined to fit the shaft: they must have machine the bush on the wrong angle causing the pump to fail after two months in service (5000Km). When the shaft and the bushes bedded in they had too much play, damaged the seal and started leaking. I had to it all again and buy new seal and bushes. I ended up getting another pump and no money back. In this precision things its always a problem because after you pay if there is any problem and they have to do something else they charge you again (so they don't really care too much).

Even bought ones have issues sometimes. Thats why I have been avoiding to keep the clutch if I am honest, although I want to.

This link is a good example

http://914ev.blogspot.co.uk/2007_08_01_archive.html


Let me get you some pictures.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

So here are some pictures.

Okay so here you can see the end of the cranckshaft. I plan to cut this, ask a machine shop to open the inside to 38mm to place on the motor shaft and then bolt to the tapper lock/flange assembly to make it secure.

The clutch thing is my clutchless adapter prototype that sits on the tapper hub (there are some pictures of it assembled on the first pages)








Here you can see the front casing of the motor. The bearing sits on the end of the shaft, the casing is 5mm thick and on the other side theres more 7mm on those groves for clearence. So 12mm in total















Here you can see the shaft. Its 8.5cm long - I will use 2.5 for the cranckshaft end and 3 for the tapper hub, so the most I could do was to cut 3.0cm of the shaft.

The bearing is not on the groove so the shaft you see is only 6.5cm out


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Was typing and pc shut down...

What I was thinking involves significant modification to your motor, so it seems whatever you do you need to shorten the motor shaft. I was trying to say that you can replace the front flange with your adaptor plate and include a larger bearing, OD and ID, and make a taper lock hub to lock to the shaft and have the flywheel bolt pattern and only protrude about an inch or bit more like the original ICE did, and the hub would double as the front bearing inner seat matching the new larger bearing ID.

Will try model it soon and post a pic/sketch. I see your predicament though, either way something needs to get shorter!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Was typing and pc shut down...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I've got some new measurements,

I will need to cut the shaft regardless, it seems, so if I use the clutch or not is just a budgetary concern now.


You just gave me a great idea. Instead of messing around with the front HUB, I could remove the rear motor fan at all and cut the rear shaft. I would gain 2" just with this, plus I wouldn't have to care with clearances for the air flux. This is a real concern right now as I am not accounting for an auxiliary electric Fan that may be needed for low speed operation.

For this I would remove the side fins and build two aluminum heat sinks to sit on the side of the motor case, where the fins were.

Given a worse case efficiency of 75% and a battery pack of 12KW used during a period of 1 hour (Motorway at 80MPH) I would only have about 3.0KW/H of heat to remove, so keeping the front radiator and a water cooling system would:


a) Allow me to effectively remove the temperature, proportionally to the speed 

b) Room for future motor mods as now I am not limited by the performance of the inbuilt fan

c) Combine motor and controller heat sink and maybe use this in winter as a complement to the electric heater

I should have an Auto-cad design of my motor and adapter plate very soon.

What experience do you have with machine shops? You seem familiar with those modifications.

Here is the motor FAN. I am waiting for a puller as I have to change the motor bearings.








And here is my proposed modification, along with what has been said as well.

I am not sure how easy this would be to accomplish, but I believe a CNC machine could easy do it, am I right?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

HI CTS

Machine shops are a bug bare of mine, always keen to help with one offs until they do the first then they always seem to hae too much on... Wasted over a month recently waiting for parts and have now asked a few large machine/fab shops who offer a one off service also (thought I'm dreading the cost difference). I googled and checked their sites, quite alot have small dedicated one off cells meaning workload shouldn't hinder them.

Regarding your heat sinks, that's no problem to make at all! I'm just wondering the best way to mount them, maybe have some clamps wrap around the whole motor, a bit like a u-clamp used on exhausts, only longer, or a strong steel band (think massive jubilee clamp) could work as long and good pressure and contact is maintained.

Good idea on losing the fan! Those 2" will give you room at the other end for the adapter I tried describing (poorly, sorry) without changing your front flange/bearing plate. Don't worry about cooling, I'd be thinking of doing somehting like the DC boys do, forcing air in radially and then through the motor axially. The heat sinks will probably be unnecessary then too!

I'll model up both adapter ideas I had tonight (in simplified form as I don't know your exact dimensions) to let you ponder over. PS, they're not even my ideas, I'm pinching from other conversions I've seen, apart from the bit about squeezing the adapter within the bearing to move it further into the motor, but that looks unnecessary...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> HI CTS
> 
> Machine shops are a bug bare of mine, always keen to help with one offs until they do the first then they always seem to hae too much on... Wasted over a month recently waiting for parts and have now asked a few large machine/fab shops who offer a one off service also (thought I'm dreading the cost difference). I googled and checked their sites, quite alot have small dedicated one off cells meaning workload shouldn't hinder them.
> 
> ...



tylerwatts,

My experience during the past six years as a mechanic is that they charge the costumer anything in between 55 and 105£, while you earn at the most 10£ and hour, and are required to have and maintain your own tools, sometimes work wear and also all the laundry (which is disgusting; I have a baby and I need to fill my washing machine with oil, grease, brake dust... plus the specific products to clean it)

Nerveless to say, while the standard mechanics earn at best 9/10£ an hour, someone from the hopeless managers and other "team liders" (that are just people that have an easy life because they are from family or friends of the employer&director...) keeps all the profit for doing nothing. We do anything from mechanical job to garage cleaning to leaflet delivery... Honestly! When I had to put food at my table and I had to tell my wife I needed to spend 600£ to buy a new tool for some model of car and I still have to pay tax on top of it as if I was spending that money for my enjoyment... Plus you are liable for all that gets broken. Accidents do happen but why didn't someone explained the costumer that that part was likely to be seized or may have needed to be replaced to carry out that job? What are those managers doing after all? I have seen everything during the years and I am not going to comment in public.
Their answer is simply that if they were to charge this the other garage could make a cheaper deal and so they would loose the job. So its up to the mechanic to either make sure it doesn’t brake or bodge the costumer, sometimes not replacing parts and gaining valuable time for the company, or guess... pay it yourself!


I have seen so many bodging done to costumers cars over the time, and most of the repairs are actually stuff that has been damaged before but has not been noted until it got more seriously.
I had several experiences, some better some worse...


Well sorry for the off-topic. 
I hope the same does not actually happen with the machine shops I don’t know how they operate but I am not happy when I am paying the same price for a certain job and they just don’t care because I am doing a prototype. I expect to be treated like any other costumer with the same level of detail. Not to say there aren’t good ones around but you will never know until you try.


Back to topic...

I have had good experiences in the past with laser cut companies, you send the CAD and they do a good job, but as you say they charge quite a lot for a one of job and if you are prototyping you need to charge just a little tiny thing its a the same as doing a newer one.

The heat-sinks are going to be mounted with screws, two or three in each side. I have about 5mm clearance after the iron where the copper makes the U turn, so I only have to thread it to secure with bolts and apply some thermal compound between both sides. I have my doubts about forcing air as the area is too small and also having a FAN in full blow is not that efficient. It will work if its on the place the original one is, but as I don’t have space, if I was to mount it at the front of the motor the back could overheat.

I am really queen on the heat sink idea, because half the size my controller is just an heat sink for the IGBT's and I will need to have twice the power as a minimum. I don’t want to fill my boot with a aluminium 

I am doing the same getting ideas around, you find lots of interesting things, that's why I have decided to share my conversion. AC motors are not very common yet, but they are the way into the future.

Your comments are helpful and I appreciate the help, I am sick of guys that just come here and tell crap because either they don’t have real life experience or they "suppose" that’s what you need and condemn your project without bringing anything useful 

Regards.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS

Totally understand your issues with mechanics/garages like that! It's the way the world is going unfortunately. But there are some good guys. I try to do what I can myself, and if I can't I take it to a high profile please, not some back yard garage, the big companies have more to lose.

Regarding machining, that is my approach now also, I've asked for quotes from a number of companies advertising good support for one offs andprototyping and with a good reputation and I will play one against the other to get a reasonable price, and if anything goes wrong I'll threaten them with cyber crucifiction of their company to show how they're thieves unless they do the job properly! But I'm sure the larger companies have built themselves up on their reputation and will aim to keep it. Biggest thing is to make sure all the information you give them is correct, and if you give them more than they need that's fine.

Also, with the world of CNC, if you can give them a model of the parts you want, they can't really go wrong and blame you. This is maybe why the laser cutting has been so successful also, because the machine just replicates your model, so you know you're getting what you've asked for. drawings can be misinterpretted etc, I always ask if I can give a model of the parts I want.

About the heat sinks, if there's room to screw them on that sounds good. I was more concerned by how much they'll be of use.

Regarding the forced air cooling, introducing hte air radially and forcing it through axially would still work, you'd just need to make holes somewhere to give you a point ot push the air in, and the holes will need to not compromise the structure and also be big enough to flow he amount of air you need.

Another idea, probably better than both heat sink and air cooling, could be to wrap the motor in copper tube as a water jacket, and liquid cool the motor that way. You'd need to ensure you have more than one point of entry so that you don't get a hot motor one end and cool at the other end. I'll have a quick go modelling this tonight also.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS

Just saw this link of Dougingraham's rx8. Look at his motor/flywheel adapter pics for inspiration, similar to what I was thinking.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tylwerwatts,

You make a good point here. Stop using machine shops or at least the manual ones and get everything done by CNC. As you say if its wrong, you can only blame yourself by providing a bad CAD.

Regarding the heat sinks I just been looking at the motor I have 8mm aluminium wall and 10mm until it hits the copper wires. I did originally thought about using copper pipe as you say, but I wouldn’t be able to properly hold it against the motor and I cant make it all round because of the foot and wire box on top. The problem I have is that I can only put a FAN facing the front and maybe the top of the motor as I don’t have space on the front/back where the fins are supposed to have the air flowing, so I come with the idea of the heat sink, which is water cooled as well. I need to investigate further on this.

The link is very good, I liked the idea of using a aluminium made flywheel. That would make things a bit easier, I guess.

On the University I am studying I know we have a CNC machine and the one that draws the CAD from the actual physical object. I don’t know if they will let me use it thought. I need to read a few books about using Autocad. Unfortunately they haven’t come with a degree that combines electronic and mechanical engineering yet, which is weird really as parts of both programmed are common for the universities that offer both.

By the way, My adapter plate wont be like you are thinking. It will just be a 5mm thick metal cut with holes. It will have no profile, although If I have access to a CNC I start to like the idea of replacing the back of the motor with custom made fascias... Not only because I can save a few millimeters, but because the motor would be customized. The rear one could be professionally built without the FAN or with provision for a 120mm electric FAN, incorporating an encoder and a suitable place for the mounting brackets.

Plus, these industrial motors have standard body sizes, so this could be duplicated with ease and swapped between motors, since the 7.5KW Can do anything up to 80HP it would beat any DC Conversion.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS

This PDF is what I was thinking for the front flange adapter. it would leave room to remove the old fan from the motor and replace it with an axial fan like the Kostov Motors use. 

I think if your heat sinks are liquid cooled they could prove quite efficient.

now regarding cooling, I've been thinking about the theory of charge cooling (whether this is efficient is unyet proven) but I thought if you run an AC system through copper pipe, rather than into a radiator (as in a standard aircon box inside the car) and coiled the copper pipe closely with a good air gap and use this pipe as the cooling circuit the pipe would almost freeze and REALLY cool the air that then gets forced over this pipework and through the motor. Bit complicated, and may need more space than you have, but it can be wound in 2 loops just round the outside of the front of your motor over the air holes and then your existing fan can remain or be replaced with an axial fan and pull the air into the motor over these cooling pipes. Just a thought.

What Uni are you at? Actually, whereabouts are you located sir? I think you could get a few Mechanical students, or even Manufacturing students interested in yoru project and they could use rebuilding your motor flanges as part of one of their projects, model the parts and have them machined for you and you'd get it for free, plus some new friends and they'd have a very interesting project as part of their degree!

I'm also surprised you say a 7,5kW motor can produce 80bhp. how did you calculate this?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes the whole idea is to have liquid cooling on motor and controller and use it for heating the cabin as well. For short journeys the coolant can act as a “thermal mass” so I don’t even have to use the FANs. I just need a low power coolant pump.

I see your design. I will have a look into it, but I believe it would require a considerable amount of machining to do it that way. 

I have also thought about the Air Con cooling, not really for the motor, but for the controller.
I would have a heat exchanger with the coolant, instead of the coolant radiator, I actually thought about that when first imagining the coil system you've used. However Air Con may be temperamental and not easy to fix if it stopped working on a journey. This happened to me on Spain on a Journey from Portugal to the UK. The weather was so hot that one of the seals just blown, letting the refrigerant out... so I always think in reliability first!

I am Located at London, on UEL. We do not have mechanical Engineering programmes. I Know Greenwich has. To be honest I chosen UEL because they had state of the art equipment for electronics, but now I start thinking about this into more detail as in Greenwich I could have some more mechanical experience. There is always a compromise...

In regards to the motor lets start with the basics:
A 7.5KW equals to 10HP. The motor can be temporarily fed (as long as you can cool it) with about 3 times the rated current (about 45Amp or 20KW) at 1450RPM (Nominal Speed for a 4 pole motor). 

Now you can also raise the voltage, in which case you keep the same current flowing.
If you raise the voltage proportionally you can keep the same torque above nameplate speed, so If I double the voltage I have the same torque up to 2900RPM. So now I have a nominal 15KW (Same current twice the voltage) or 20HP Motor with a peak power of 60HP.

You can even go further to 4350 or 5800RPM if you balance the rotor, so you can have a 120HP Motor. In practice things are different because you have added iron and copper losses, but from this 120HP you probably have 105-110 Usable, and you need to get rid of 15KW of heat. (that's where the water cooling fits!) This is your motor potential. Tesla motor can go up to 12.000RPM and its oil cooled.

You cant find controllers for 480X4=1920VAC or 2400VDC so you have to rewind the motor to a lower voltage, lets say 208V for double power or 115V for 4x the power. To keep it simple lets just find a 208V motor as they are a common voltage on the USA and use that. I Now have about 60HP of usable power.

This is similar to the forklift motors where they get one for 48V and feed 96 or more into it.
A WARP 9 Motor is actually only 28HP nominal at 90V but you can get more as peak power or if you raise the voltage. The manufacturer states a peak of 70HP @ 120 Volts DC (435 Amps).


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> CTS
> 
> This PDF is what I was thinking for the front flange adapter. it would leave room to remove the old fan from the motor and replace it with an axial fan like the Kostov Motors use.
> 
> ...


Been looking into your adapter plate and my clutch components and I think the idea is worth a try. The clutch for this gearbox is kind of weird, I can not think of a better idea with only 3 or 4cm long.
What software have you used to do the drawing?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi CTS

Just modelled in Solidworks, very rough image. Can you post some pics of your flywheel and clutch assy? Also some dims of your motor's rotor and motor housing to aid modelling of a front plate, and any measurements of your transmission bell housing, or an image of it with 2 or 3 measurements to hole centres to scale it, and I can model it better.

I saw in another thread someone used their XBox 360 motion sensor to 3D model their vehicle chassis, could be used to model the motor and transmission too. Would love to find out how to do this myself too! Always a nightmare to accurately replicate the measurements of a trans when modelling up from scratch!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Hi CTS
> 
> Just modelled in Solidworks, very rough image. Can you post some pics of your flywheel and clutch assy? Also some dims of your motor's rotor and motor housing to aid modelling of a front plate, and any measurements of your transmission bell housing, or an image of it with 2 or 3 measurements to hole centres to scale it, and I can model it better.
> 
> I saw in another thread someone used their XBox 360 motion sensor to 3D model their vehicle chassis, could be used to model the motor and transmission too. Would love to find out how to do this myself too! Always a nightmare to accurately replicate the measurements of a trans when modelling up from scratch!


Cool stuff!!

I have been working on the gearbox last night. I´ve done a CAD drawing, but it looks as I will have to bring it to have the right dimensions to the center of the holes where the bolts go. They are not in a plan.
I have also thought about cutting the flywheel and machine it to 38mm and then press it intoi the motor shaft. That would be the most cost effctive way. i can even modify the motor casing and push it down untill it almost touches the bearing. Just thoughts now.

In regards to the motor I believe that AutoCad must have a template as this industrial motors are used on the industry. I need to take a look at that


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ah that's a good posibility if you can modify the flywheel. Do you have some pictures? If an taper lock bush could be integrated into the flywheel directly it could be mounted close to the motor. Remember though, this won't help if you cannot mount the motor the same amount further into the bell housing. THe clutch MUST be in the same axial position (distance from gearbox) as it was originally, or the cluthc will not function properly, either slipping, or not disengaging properly.

Very important to get that right. I suspect the integrated front flange/adapter/taperlock arrangement I crudely modelled is the best for getting the motor shorter/closer to the transmission without unduely affecting the clutch operation. A good idea is to try get a used/broken crank and cut the end off with the flywheel mounting, turn the centre larger for a taper lock bush and use that.

There's a number of ideas to do it, but it MUST be done correctly or it'll cause no end of frustration and disappointment in the future.

Have you got pictures of the flywheel/clutch seperate and assembled on the ICE. that would be the best starting point.

PS, sell the engine to pay for the adaptor parts and machining


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Ah that's a good posibility if you can modify the flywheel. Do you have some pictures? If an taper lock bush could be integrated into the flywheel directly it could be mounted close to the motor. Remember though, this won't help if you cannot mount the motor the same amount further into the bell housing. THe clutch MUST be in the same axial position (distance from gearbox) as it was originally, or the cluthc will not function properly, either slipping, or not disengaging properly.
> 
> Very important to get that right. I suspect the integrated front flange/adapter/taperlock arrangement I crudely modelled is the best for getting the motor shorter/closer to the transmission without unduely affecting the clutch operation. A good idea is to try get a used/broken crank and cut the end off with the flywheel mounting, turn the centre larger for a taper lock bush and use that.
> 
> ...


I dont need. The Flywheel is not attached to the cranckshaft, instead the clutch pressure plate is. So I can try to modify this, and the flywheel will fit into it. Its weird. The assembly is not from the Polo, its from a 1.9D Ibiza, so everithing is different, and the Flywheel is bigger, and the release bearing works of a different way.

Adjusting couldn't be easier. I have 3cm from the face of the gearbox + the adapter plate thickness. I can even adjust using the taper bush. 

Lol, the engine is siezed. 

This is the pressure plate.



















The Flywheel goes on top of this.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that seems a wierd setup.

So all your adapter needs is to mount the clutch plate. Well this simplifies it. A machined taper lock hub and bush that uses the clutch plate's mounting holes and bolts to clamp the bosh also, 2 birds with one stone killed. And since you have adjustment of the clutch it will make positioning it alot easier.

It still looks like the adapter would be better off recessed into a new front flange with a larger bearing riding on the taper lock hub rather than the shaft, and shortening the shaft accordingly.

I can try model it again tonight with this simplified design. Do you have some basic dimensions, like rough motor dia and hole pcd, rough transmission flange dia, shaft dia etc? Just to get a better scale of things.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow that seems a wierd setup.
> 
> So all your adapter needs is to mount the clutch plate. Well this simplifies it. A machined taper lock hub and bush that uses the clutch plate's mounting holes and bolts to clamp the bosh also, 2 birds with one stone killed. And since you have adjustment of the clutch it will make positioning it alot easier.
> 
> ...


It is a weird setup 

Good news, after some recommendation from local engineering shops I found a guy that seems to know about his stuff. 
I went to speak with him and took the clutch assembly, the crankshaft end (I manage to cut it after 3 months!!) and my motor rotor.

He warned me not to rev the motor to 4K RPM and release the clutch (That would be idiot, but I know of guys that drive like that) so I have to set a limit into my controller, lets say 2000 if the clutch is pressed, other than that it should be alright.

So now lets wait and see. Sorry no pictures.
Now its time to design the adapter plate.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That sounds excellent!

Well ideally we want to see the proposed adapter design he comes up with, then go from there. Did he offer en eta? What did he propose? Was out visiting family tonight so not modeled it, sorry. Will have a go tomorrow and try capture what I expect him to do for the adapter hub using the end of your crank. Any info you have would help, if you'd like me to model it. Forgive me if I'm taking over your project!

Have some ideas to plan on mine also so I'll focus some energy there also...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

If the adaptor plate is a simple flat piece, you might want to try:
http://www.emachineshop.com/

I just designed a sample adaptor plate of 0.50" thick 6061 aluminum, 10" diameter, with 5 holes, and the cost is about $100, including shipping. They can also make gears and boxes, and other materials are available. The same part made from hot rolled steel is about $115, and even made from #304 annealed stainless steel it is just about $170.

I made it more complex with a raised center hub with internal groove, and countersunk holes, and now the price for 6061 aluminum is about $500:


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> That sounds excellent!
> 
> Well ideally we want to see the proposed adapter design he comes up with, then go from there. *Did he offer en eta? What did he propose?* Was out visiting family tonight so not modeled it, sorry. Will have a go tomorrow and try capture what I expect him to do for the adapter hub using the end of your crank. Any info you have would help, if you'd like me to model it. Forgive me if I'm taking over your project!
> 
> Have some ideas to plan on mine also so I'll focus some energy there also...


Always welcome, every title helps 

It will take a week for the thing to be ready. I was dumb and haven't measured the thickness of the thing so i will have to wait for the coupler to be ready to actually know the thickness I need for the adapter plate. This one wont be adjustable, it will sit in the end of the motor shaft.

Basically whats going to be done is what is proposed on the first page of this topic. I may go with the taper version, but my pressure plate is a little bit bent and I didn't want to risk just now (can't afford a new one just now). Besides with the crankshaft end I can use ANY VW type gearbox (Just in Case).

Do you have a Polo as well? I am making the CAD now. Also contacted another member here in South London, I am not sure if he wants to do something. He's converting an older Golf with same gearbox. 
Wish I was converting a Golf they are so much easier....! 

What do you mean with Did he offer en eta?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> If the adaptor plate is a simple flat piece, you might want to try:
> http://www.emachineshop.com/
> 
> I just designed a sample adaptor plate of 0.50" thick 6061 aluminum, 10" diameter, with 5 holes, and the cost is about $100, including shipping. They can also make gears and boxes, and other materials are available. The same part made from hot rolled steel is about $115, and even made from #304 annealed stainless steel it is just about $170.
> ...


Where are you based Paul? And what was the thicness of your adapter plate? I was wondering how much shipping would be to the UK. I definitely wanted something on stainless steel. Keeps a tidy look


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That is not a real adaptor plate. I just drew a circle and some holes and played around with the machining options to get an idea of cost. The company is located in New Jersey, so UPS ground to me in Maryland is cheap (under $10). I have no idea about international shipping. You should download the free application and contact them. There may even be a similar on-line service in the UK. The website is:

www.emachineshop.com

Oh, yeah, the plate I show is 0.50" thick and the hub is 1" thick.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> That is not a real adaptor plate. I just drew a circle and some holes and played around with the machining options to get an idea of cost. The company is located in New Jersey, so UPS ground to me in Maryland is cheap (under $10). I have no idea about international shipping. You should download the free application and contact them. There may even be a similar on-line service in the UK. The website is:
> 
> www.emachineshop.com
> 
> Oh, yeah, the plate I show is 0.50" thick and the hub is 1" thick.


I see, you updated your post 

I had a look, I went to their website. Not really worth it they charge about 120$ just for shipping and I will probably have to pay tax (overseas). 
Will look for something local. For 10$ its a real deal for you guys on the USA


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Adapter is going... Bloody gearbox...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Couldn't wait to model it, so sketched (poorly, sorry) it now.

This is the rough idea, keeps the flywheel end flange in the same locationi as on the ICE and shortens yoru motor, rather than attaching it on/over the end of your long motor shaft. Motor shaft will need to be shortened to do this obviously.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Couldn't wait to model it, so sketched (poorly, sorry) it now.
> 
> This is the rough idea, keeps the flywheel end flange in the same locationi as on the ICE and shortens yoru motor, rather than attaching it on/over the end of your long motor shaft. Motor shaft will need to be shortened to do this obviously.


I just bid on a gearbox at eBay.

Its a type 02Y or similar. I will be speaking with the seller to see if I can get some more info on it, as I do not want to buy an untested gearbox. If all goes well we have a deal. Its only 50£

Either way this one should be considerably smaller that the 020 type and the mounting is all the same, so I can use my CAD. I may also be able to use the polo flywheel, which is smaller.

Here is a rough picture


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks alright, definately seems smaller judging by the bell housing.

Make sure your engineer doesn't make an adapter that won't work with this gearbox. Should be ok as I expect the VWs all use a similar flywheel bolt pattern, at least the smaller engines should be similar.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks alright, definitely seems smaller judging by the bell housing.
> 
> Make sure your engineer doesn't make an adapter that won't work with this gearbox. Should be ok as I expect the VWs all use a similar flywheel bolt pattern, at least the smaller engines should be similar.


That has been thought before. On the petrols the distance from the block to the crankshaft bolts are about 2.5cm, on the diesels 3cm. This gearbox has the same bell housing to fit the motor side, so the only problem I may have is to make sure the polo flywheel is long enough for the clutch mechanism to trigger as this is different from the 020. I should be able to compensate on the adapter plate with only a few millimeters between different setups.

Also, if I am sure the Polo flywheel/clutch assembly does indeed fit I can do the taper bush on the flywheel assembly, making it so much easier and compact.

About the gearbox I just confirmed, is a 02A, the same used on the Passats. I have worked with them before. They are heavy duty (Used on 2L Petrol, TDI and V6 Engines and also weight a TON!

02A has a hydraulic clutch setup to keep me busy (I have a cable one). The gears are cable change like the 085, so it should make it easier here. I believe the mounts are on the angle I need so I should be able to modify the Polo one easily. 

Other modifications are driveshaft flanges need to be swapped (100mm to 90mm) and maybe I can get away with modifying only the long driveshaft, instead of both.

Would like to have the engine assembly completed and tested before the project will come to a complete stop once it gets to the battery part


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow CTS that trans is looking like a good find! Nice and strong for your torquey motor!

Why do you say the project will stop when it comes to batteries? Cost? Sorry to hear that!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow CTS that trans is looking like a good find! Nice and strong for your torquey motor!
> 
> Why do you say the project will stop when it comes to batteries? Cost? Sorry to hear that!



Yeah, cant afford for the batteries right now. 2000£
It will take some good months to have the rest ready anyway.

The trans should give me space for future upgrades. 
So what car are you planing to convert?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I have 2 actually. Wanted to convert my MaAzda Eunos (miata/MX5) for a while, unfortunately was in a road collision before Christmas last year so needs repairs at the same time, but is off the road at least to work on if I ever get time.

Secondly, I currently have a Rav4 I want to convert, trouble being it won't take a motor larger than 9"/220mm diameter which is why I've been discussing customising AC motors, and building a siamese AC motor that is essentially 2 motors in parallel (more torque) or was looking at the possibility of building a Switched RTeluctance motor, but the controller for such a mtoor scares me a little bit.

I have a brilliant (I think, but then I'm biased) design for an Axial Flux SRM that will give a good working motor diameter (Rotor/Stator air gap = torque) without being too large in diameter overall, and will allow 'stacking of motors to increase current and torque capacity, and ultimately tailor the power requirement you need. But this is a more long term project, though it looks like I'll need to sort one of these options out before I convert either car.

I could do the Eunos conversion with a large enough Industrial AC motor in the mean time. Got to save up whichever way I go. Mainly for the controller, and work out what power supply I'll need for the given conviguration. Want to keep Voltage higher and wind the motors for torque. Ideally I'd love to just go direct drive on either/both cars.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> I have 2 actually. Wanted to convert my MaAzda Eunos (miata/MX5) for a while, unfortunately was in a road collision before Christmas last year so needs repairs at the same time, but is off the road at least to work on if I ever get time.
> 
> Secondly, I currently have a Rav4 I want to convert, trouble being it won't take a motor larger than 9"/220mm diameter which is why I've been discussing customising AC motors, and building a siamese AC motor that is essentially 2 motors in parallel (more torque) or was looking at the possibility of building a Switched RTeluctance motor, but the controller for such a mtoor scares me a little bit.
> 
> ...


Hi again,

Just got my gearbox and also got a free flywheel 
I got the gearbox yesterday, in the meanwhile a good deal showed up for another gearbox this time with the flywheel, pressure plate, etc. For 30£ I had to go and see (A clutch costs double that). So I went there today to find that the 3rd and 4 gears were making a horrible noise when spun by hand, all the others seemed normal. This was a recon gearbox so my experience told me not to risk (Good luck finding good quality rebuilds here in the UK).

So, after having spent 15£ in Fuel the seller just gave me the flywheel and bits to make up for the journey.

I have also been doing my homework and the polo flywheel and pressure plate fit the new gearbox if I use the 1.4 16V clutch. Its bigger and has 28 spines for the bigger shaft on the gearbox. I have to source a clutch plate if I go this route, but I only seem to find clutch kits which are more expensive.

Now back to work 

The Miata is a popular conversion in the USA. Shame to know what happened 

The RAV 4, is going to be a bigger problem, but you may get away with it. I was helping another member with the same issue a few weeks ago, but he wanted to keep the full power (4L chipped TDI), so...

My best idea is to clear the space in front of the gearbox for the batteries and place the motor in the top driving the gearbox with a suitable chain. You can even keep the clutch if you do it nicely. You need an adapter plate like the one you were showing me for the motor with the bearing screwed into the gearbox like the ICE would be. One end goes to the coupler the other to the chain. I am talking about a proper chain, used for industrial machines. You can get a catalog. One end goes into your motor with a taper hub, and in the gearbox you need to use similar thing, so not that hard at all.

Direct drive, if you have a Hi and Low selector should be fine. If you get stuck on a high hill you put the low gear.

If you want good acceleration keep the gearbox. You can do it without but it will be slower to get up to speed. Depends on your driving habits, but again the Hi and Low selector, if you have one should do the trick if your motor is capable of good RPM (at least 6000) You need to check if you can change modes while the car is driving, clutch less. I don't think they have syncros like the GB.

One thing you need to know, if going with the AC Route the biggest motor you can probably find is a 11KW. Buy one VFD rated as this ones have the rotor balanced up to 6-10krpm already and are usually high efficiency ones as well.

Above 11KW body they are all made on cast iron.

1) Weights twice (100Kg!!!)
2) Iron heatsink-> worse heat transfer -> Possible overheat problems!!

Don't use two motors. Tooooooooo much hassle!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That's a great idea for the motor, thanks.

Regarding two motors, I want to get two identical motors and remove the cores (stator and rotor and original wiring) and fix them together in a thinner/narrower Alu housing powerfully with water cooling, to give potential double current capacity by wiring them in parallel and even in torque mode (can't remember if this is delta or wye) to give good torque. I want to use an automatic transmission also to give the various speed ranges, and have both manual and simple automatic modes with a custom ecu.

Still looking into this though, and custom DIY switched reluctance motor but not sure about controlling it yet.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> That's a great idea for the motor, thanks.
> Regarding two motors, I want to get two identical motors and remove the cores (stator and rotor and original wiring) and fix them together in a thinner/narrower Alu housing powerfully with water cooling, to give potential double current capacity by wiring them in parallel and even in torque mode (can't remember if this is delta or wye) to give good torque. I want to use an automatic transmission also to give the various speed ranges, and have both manual and simple automatic modes with a custom ecu.
> Still looking into this though, and custom DIY switched reluctance motor but not sure about controlling it yet.


I happen to bump on the other topic again, you were the one converting the RAV 4 lol 
Technically speaking the way you want to set them up may make things easier, but not much easier. 
You can not user vectorless torque mode because the VFD is going to be confused as its calculating data from one of the motors and there is some torque coming from somewhere else. You can use Vector mode with a position sensor, but even so it needs to be tested as the windings are different and different currents and toque are going to result. Also you need two VFD wich adds up to the complexity as you need to link them and only a few support this.
One approach would be to rewind this motors and place each pole in series with the one on the other motor, so the current would be shared evenly and if they are both linked together the phase angle would be the same.
You need each individual core winded up for a really low voltage like 48V-96V or so, because they are in series now, and only one VFD.

Another option would be to get an 8 pole motor, also re-winded for a low voltage. lets say you get a 7.5KW motor. Considering that you would feed the thing with twice the current That would give you 200nm at 720RPM nominal with a locked rotor toque of 600nm. If rewinded to 96 V you would have about 3000RPM max speed, at 200nm at 200Hz and most VSDs can go up to 400Hz, so you could keep up to 6000RPM if needed.
I believe this would be 15KW at 720RPM, so you will need... at least 60KW VFD or 80HP. You can take that motor up to 100HP.

You will also need water cooling because a fan designed to operate at 720RPM would make your car fly at 6000 

You need to account for iron losses thought. If you are going with a VFD rated motor the manufacturer can give you the torque curves and they usually behave much better at high speeds as the laminations and rotor are made with higher quality materials

Remember that your 350nm or so from the diesel are about 300nm at the wheels on 4th gear, considering GB losses and are about 200 in 5th gear (overdrive) so you would loose something but not as much as it first sounds.
Also I believe your motor will only develop full torque from 2000 to 3500 at the most, all the other rev ranges are limited because at lower speeds the turbo doesn’t have enough exhaust flow to boost fully and at high revs it starts to act like like an obstacle for the air flow, that now gets hotter and needs to be cooled by the intercooler. All this adds up to the losses
If you want to develop your own motor I would set up a stand to put them along with another motor to act as load/generator, so you could have some instant figures of what your system is going to behave like


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks CTS

Regarding the rewiring or two controllers. I was going to connect the wiring together so that the controller would only see one motor load, soince they are wired together in the stators and the rotors are physically locked together, and use a speed sensor to tell the controller the rotor speed and position. Does this sound reasonable? Ideally I won't have to physically rewind the stators, just connect them in parallel so they keep their 240/480VAC (probably in between with the Scottdrive) and increase the torque.

Would love to find a BIG industrial controller to convert and save some money, but my fallback is reprogramming a Scottdrive controller for induction motors. I'll start a proper dedicated thread to this soon. Also keen to try the switched reluctance motor. Any idea where to get suitable blank laminations to waterjet/laser cut to the specific requirements of a custom motor? I'll get a model up of the design soon, really simple from a construction point of view.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

*## Updated ##*

To answer your question you can drive two induction motors in parallel from the same VDF. 
They will not run at the same speed and or phase angle, and will try to balance themselves all the time if connected together.

When running multiple motors you will loose the vsd protection for each individual motor. 
Lets say motor a may be drawing 75% of the current and motor b only 25% causing one to suffer excessive current and over heat. The vsd will see the currents as 100% so will see no overload.

You can install thermal sensors and current protection, but my personal opinion is not to do it this way. If you are going to invest so much in a project you want to make sure is done properly.

If running in series as I suggested you are sure they are fully balanced and share the load evenly. 
You can also do it safely with a synchronous motor or even convert an induction into one. 

I never used laminations before, you can try to source them from some place that makes transformers perhaps, or you could make them in cad with the shape you want and add them together. Maybe it wouldn't be that expensive.

As you I am biased and prefer to work with commonly available components, stuff already made as I will have someone to sue if the thing fails catastrophically at 6krpm not no mention lethal voltages if there is a leak. The Prius detect this and its a common failure.
Remember your insurance will probably not cover that. 

I am not telling you is a bad idea but the investment and chances it might go wrong are just not worth it if you think about. We had a colleague at Uni last year that developed such kind of motor and his calculations of efficiency proved wrong. Not to say the design was It was a good experience and he learned a lot, but without access to machinery like the ones present on a factory small details can cost a few points of efficiency and you will never know how will it behave in real life unless you have a couple of models just to take to the extreme even if that means blow them.

Past experience taught me that if is too good to be true is because it really is 

You may want to do a research on the bourke engine. Its a good example of a project that never got to the market. They claimed improved efficiency, however some sources said that it was not that good. We may never know the truth, since modern engines have the efficiency boosted by electronics.

Its a shame that manufactures with millions of dollars aren't investing and reading more here in the forums. For them this would be a possibility. Each project like this would just be a hobby for some directors/managers considering their wages. An example is that an extra gear on most engines would improve an ICE efficiency by about 10% on motorway with the cost next to zero. Is that so expensive to put a little bit more iron on the gearboxes? But really unless the government pushes them because of the emissions they're never going to do anything 

In my many years as a mechanic I always wondered how the regulation still allows for cars to be leaking engine oil thought the seals after 50.000 miles, many still on warranty (both manufacturers and warranty companies don't cover rubber seals). Its an environment hazard and its not even an MOT failure to have the engine covered in oil. But if you are caught spilling used oil somewhere they can fine you. Its all about money this days... And what a shame it is!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Can anyone guess what this is?








Take a closer look


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Finished Adapter Plate


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow very nice CTS! Is it going to be accurate transfering that sketch to metal?

What is the situation like for length (width) in teh engine bay with the new transmission? I notice if the motor front plate is replaced with an integrated adapter like we discussed it will easily have clearance of the bell housing bolts of the transmission and save a good amount of length, but that might not be necessary with the new trans.

Who is going to produce that adapter plate for you?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow very nice CTS! Is it going to be accurate transfering that sketch to metal?
> 
> What is the situation like for length (width) in teh engine bay with the new transmission? I notice if the motor front plate is replaced with an integrated adapter like we discussed it will easily have clearance of the bell housing bolts of the transmission and save a good amount of length, but that might not be necessary with the new trans.
> 
> Who is going to produce that adapter plate for you?


The new transmission should give me about 4 cm clearance (its 7 cm smaller).

I am going to send the Cad to a few laser cut shops near me to get some quotes. 10mm steel should be good. The paper was only to make sure everything lined up and check the angles.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I have received the quotes for the laser shops and I am very happy with them. I will be designing the mounts this way as well. 

In the meanwhile I am now stuck because the engineering guy hasnt got my part ready. Seems like I have to wait a week more.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I hate that! Had to wait 6 weeks extra for some bits but my guy had a reasonable reason. 

Regarding the adapter, get it made in Aluminium, 10mm should be fine for the torque you're expecting. Obviously get a good grade. I believe 6028 is good, high tensile strength and high corrosion resistance, but low weldability if you ever want to weld to it... Plenty to choose though, go to matweb.com and type in your specs and it will list suitable materials.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I believe mine is retired or something. He works alone, closed door warehouse, no advertising, but everyone seems to know about him, so he must do something right. And I need quality, not a flying "flywheel" ... 

Couple of weeks ago I went to an ES. and explained the part would have a 15kg flywheel spinning at 4000RPM and wanted to attach the motor shaft to it. 
The guy asked somewhere inside if they had 38mm drill bits, got a positive. 
I politely asked what was he going to do with a 38mm drill bit since I wanted the shaft to be press fitted. He wanted to drill the crack end with a 38mm drill. Next thing flying out of the shop was me 

I might use 6082. Its a compromise between strength and thickness. If my plate is less than 10mm I will go with 316SS otherwise Aluminum will be the choice.

How's your project? Any updates?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Project is going to be slow. Am deciding about motor and controllers and trying to find some serviceable motors on the cheap to build a Siamese setup. Got a possible source at work but need to find out the legality of relieving the company of such things...

Well post soon some motor ideas, roughly modeled to check their size in my car and what sort of motors I'm looking for.

Great to see your car coming together so well though!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Project is going to be slow. Am deciding about motor and controllers and trying to find some serviceable motors on the cheap to build a Siamese setup. Got a possible source at work but need to find out the legality of relieving the company of such things...
> 
> Well post soon some motor ideas, roughly modeled to check their size in my car and what sort of motors I'm looking for.
> 
> Great to see your car coming together so well though!


It will hardly go any slower than my Polo.... It gets on my nerves how much time you have to wait for something so simple when you depend on others...
I am now considering the drive shafts as they are different size.

Option one requires the original ones to be machined and new larger inner CV joints to be fitted. I can either get after market or second hand, but you know people, if I can get a set of new after market ones for 50£, they ask me 70£ for used ones with 150000 miles on it.

Second option is to make an adapter, but will have to cut the driveshafts to accommodate for the extra thickness and thread the adapter as well.

Its so annoying... legal stuff because you're "stealing" their garbage... bla, bla, bla... 

I miss the old junk yards... when I was a kid I could get so many great parts on there to recycle for my projects... I remember "going shopping" on LED's, big brushless fans on 386 and 486 Computers, all sorts of brackets and cool stuff back in 1996 when I was a kid... I could get hold of them either free or for the price of iron. I miss those good old times, when people were genuinely selling unwanted stuff on ebay for cheap...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Well... 

Got some new bearings for my motor to replace the noisy ones.
I am not sure when will I be able to change it, so might as well take care of it.
I have been looking at the car again today.
Lots of space now, this new gearbox is the same length as the old 085. 
Next thing is to get some brackets made up, I have been checking the angles and clearances and making some more stuff on CAD.

The AirCon/Alternator and Power steering pump are going to be assembled on the body of the electric motor to keep the hoses near their original positions.
On the back and Top of the motor I will install 3 120mm DC FANs for low speed operation cooling.

I am thinking if it will be a good idea to keep the VSD on the Engine compartment as well.

Both Driveshafts will need to be shortened. I could get away modifying only one, but this gives me extra clearance for the motor FAN to operate.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Had a review yesterday about the project.
The motor will have new SNR bearings (expensive), water resistant, up to 5400RPM. Front one is installed, rear one is on order.









Next important thing is the vacuum pump. Been doing some research around and while electric ones seem to be quite expensive, they don’t seem to be so reliable, so I just thought: Lets keep it simple and use something that is tested and proven: A mechanic pump from a diesel.

I managed to source a faulty alternator from a friends scrap, with an inbuilt Vacuum pump. 
Not sure what’s wrong with it, at least needs new bearings and seals. Alternator looks like new after a GOOD clean up.
Thought about running the pump itself with a DC Motor, but due to the cost of a decent DC motor with ball bearings it seems easier to just adapt the alternator that the pump came with it into my bracket and sell the VW one. 
Should be fairly reliable, with only a motor driving the Vacuum, AirCon and Power steering. 
















Some hight comparations.









Looks like at least a 90Amp Japanese Model, bigger than the VW.


Next thing is to remove all the crap (Voltage regulator, rectifiers) and solder wires for 3 phase input + field.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Very interesting idea. What sort of controller do you plan on using? One thing to watch out for is that most diesel vac pumps require a pressurised oil feed from the engine for lubrication.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

jackbauer said:


> Very interesting idea. What sort of controller do you plan on using? One thing to watch out for is that most diesel vac pumps require a pressurised oil feed from the engine for lubrication.


For the traction motor a VFD, for the acessories I am in between another VFD or a Brushless controller, depending on cost.

I am going to modify the pump in a similar way to the vacuum pumps used in the AC industry. Should be self contained in oil, instead of having a pressure feed line.

By the way, very cool conversion, just been checking your website.


Can you give me some feedback on the headways? I have some in here for my electric bike and will also use as the 12V backup source in the polo, however I would like to have experience from someone that actually has used them in a car. Do they still have the problems with the electrods coming loose while connecting them? Do they balance ok? How long have you been using them?


Also you have a large gap in between bateries, do they get very hot or was this just a precaution? 

Regards, Carlos


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Interesting find on the vacuum pump/alternator. Why not use the alternator itself as a motor? Do a google search for "alternator motor conversion" to find information. Basically, you excite the rotor through the brushes with DC, and use a BLDC controller hooked up to the stator phases after removing the diodes. Some people use RC ESCs to do it, could probably use a cheap controller from Kelly as well.

You can get rid of the brushes all together by putting magnets in the rotor as well.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> Interesting find on the vacuum pump/alternator. Why not use the alternator itself as a motor? Do a google search for "alternator motor conversion" to find information. Basically, you excite the rotor through the brushes with DC, and use a BLDC controller hooked up to the stator phases after removing the diodes. Some people use RC ESCs to do it, could probably use a cheap controller from Kelly as well.
> 
> You can get rid of the brushes all together by putting magnets in the rotor as well.


Big mouse,
Thats exactly what I am going to do 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77784

If I use a VFD I can use it as an induction motor, without brushes, just shorting the rotor terminals inside, wich should make it even simpler.
I need to see if I can source one at a good price, otherwise the chinese Brushless controllers for the e-bikes should do it. I have a 800W/1HP one, do do the tests.


Update: Got a 12V electric vacuum pump for a volvo for 25£.
Impossible to beat, so no need to modify the alternator bracket.
Now I need to find a switch. They sell for a ridicolous price!


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> Big mouse,
> Thats exactly what I am going to do
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77784
> ...


Hello Carlos, it's me your new EV friend from London who's doing a Mk2 Golf conversion, finally read all your treads here on your forum, after all this time, and thanks to you when you told me to read on, i never knew one could just click NEXT page over to move along and reed all the treads, the numbers are sort of way up before the bottom of each page and it's so tiny to even notice it, thanks also for a small mention about my build on your tread, and i like that you took on board my idea for a Volvo Vacuum pump didn't think a professional such as you would take a newbie like me serious at all, also maybe use a switch from a household boiler they have a auto switch that runs on and off for a few seconds, you sure do know your stuff about EV's and i'm sorry to learn your having such a mission on your gearbox and drive shaft adjustments, and what with using a clutch and a AC motor instead, i do hope this all works out for you, hopefully we could meet up soon and work together as the A-Team.

This is the first time that i've ever typed anything here on this site so i hope i haven't messed up your treads or messaged you in the wrong paragraph, huge sorry and all the best of luck matey and see you soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Hello Carlos, it's me your new EV friend from London who's doing a Mk2 Golf conversion, finally read all your treads here on your forum, after all this time, and thanks to you when you told me to read on, i never knew one could just click NEXT page over to move along and reed all the treads, the numbers are sort of way up before the bottom of each page and it's so tiny to even notice it, thanks also for a small mention about my build on your tread, and i like that you took on board my idea for a Volvo Vacuum pump didn't think a professional such as you would take a newbie like me serious at all, also maybe use a switch from a household boiler they have a auto switch that runs on and off for a few seconds, you sure do know your stuff about EV's and i'm sorry to learn your having such a mission on your gearbox and drive shaft adjustments, and what with using a clutch and a AC motor instead, i do hope this all works out for you, hopefully we could meet up soon and work together as the A-Team.
> 
> This is the first time that i've ever typed anything here on this site so i hope i haven't messed up your treads or messaged you in the wrong paragraph, huge sorry and all the best of luck matey and see you soon.


Glad you are enjoying the conversion 

Was that you who gave me the idea for the volvo pump?
You will like this forum, lots of great ideas here.

Talking about your golf, you may like to take a look at ace_bridger conversion. He just got his MOT yesterday and its about to get the change done at DVLA.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=328964#post328964

In the meanwhile my clutch adapter is here. Just waiting for the new bearing to arrive. Still to decide what flywheel to use.









*##GUYS I AM LOOKING INTO A 200MM 28 SPLINE VW CLUTCH DISK USED ON THE 16V 1.4 AND 1.6 VW's, can anyone source this or know where can I get one without buying the whole kit?##*


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I believe I just found a way of doubling my motor HP rating. 
So I now may have a 60HP motor, instead of 30.

I now have 12 Conections instead of 6. There are two sets of coils in series, which i am going to change to series. 























My VSD should still limit the performance to 25HP, but since I now have the same current up to 3000RPM it will work much more efficiently and cooler.

Here is the open motor.

I have option to rewire to 2 pole, but I believe I might keep it as a 4 pole, keeping the same torque.


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> Glad you are enjoying the conversion
> 
> Was that you who gave me the idea for the volvo pump?
> You will like this forum, lots of great ideas here.
> ...


Yes it was me who told you regarding the Volvo V50 Pump when you Emailed me the question a week ago, do let me know how it works and also pass it on to the EV world.

Yes I do know all about Adam's ace_bridger conversion and read up all he's treads, and i do know he's previous Golfs owner too called David who did convert it before to EV and then sold it on to him minus everything apart from the motor, and who now lives in Germany, great car too.

I do myself have quite a collection of clutch splines as you know, however VW Golfs have only 24 spline teeth and not 28, i'll try and find you a 28 myself, but if your in an urgent rush pop over to 29B High Street, Chislehurst, BR7 5AE
phone Gary first on: 0208 851 5555 and tell him i sent you there and he'll give you one or two for free, good luck.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Yes it was me who told you regarding the Volvo V50 Pump when you Emailed me the question a week ago, do let me know how it works and also pass it on to the EV world.
> 
> Yes I do know all about Adam's ace_bridger conversion and read up all he's treads, and i do know he's previous Golfs owner too called David who did convert it before to EV and then sold it on to him minus everything apart from the motor, and who now lives in Germany, great car too.
> 
> ...


Sure it was me you've emailed? I believe I got the idea from here 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/12v-power-brake-vacuum-pump-67078.html
Maybe I am wrong  

They all have 24 splines, only the 1.4 and 1.6 *16V* use the 28 spline with a 200mm disk.(hard to find!!) The GB shaft is reinforced on this models.

I have a 28 spline from the 2L that this GB belonged to, but the disk is 220 and the flywheel is a bit too heavy (15.5kg versus 10.4).

I will call him, thanks!

How is your conversion going?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi.

"hard" to find = $$$ to find 

Does this look like what you need: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?catalog=160&partnum=826798

Start your search here, I think I saw cheaper ones in there: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,make,VOLKSWAGEN,year,1999,model,POLO,vtype,EU. Shipping could be a killer depending on where you are located.

JR


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

JRoque said:


> Hi.
> 
> "hard" to find = $$$ to find
> 
> ...


 


Not necessarily,

They are hard to find in scrapyards as 90% are 24 spline. And also I have a thing with scrapyards they want to sell to the price of new if it something small. There’s no way to negotiate so I just order it online. In the long term I win because I got a new part, but its annoying because sometimes they are hard to find. They don’t care if they don’t sell.

When I was back in Portugal they got rid of excessive stock. New car seats and parts were thrown away, because they had so much. But they wouldn’t sell them lower. Guess the same here in the UK.
The other day something similar the local bearing shop wanted 18£ for a bearing that I bought online (same P/N) for 7.45PP Inc. that arrived less than 2 days later (I ordered 29th at 6PM and got it 31 at 1PM).
If you are not in a hurry this can save you lots of money. I have nothing against their business, but I believe they kind of take advantage of people wanting things for yesterday. Other people are selling them and they have to make for a living as well so...? Why are so many differences in the same items?

I have a budget and my idea is not to save money is to have quality and do wise choices. 

This takes time, but one day when someone comes to do the same thing and they look at my project I want it to be like a reference, with every single detail, not having to guess how did that went there like I see many times?? And that is the whole idea of this topic. I look at many people projects and they inspire me and that’s the reason I do the same, to inspire and give others a chance to learn. People can then vote and rate the topics.

In the long run I wanted an electric car since I was 16, long before lithium batteries were available. I never make it because I coulnt afford it. An adapter plate for 600£? A Motor for another 600£? A controller for 2000£? And what do you get? a 30Y car converted?
At the end of the day if we all had money why would we bother converting to electric? 

Besides, what is all the fun if you just assembling the Lego's? I like new chalenges, so If I can design and be present in all steps of my build the better. I am sure I have my own personalised car, made my own way with the things I need and there is no other like that. 

This was an offtopic JR, nothing to do with you!!

*** Back to topic ****

Thats actually a good price for a Valeo unit, and yes that what I need.
The thing is, when I converted the other polo to LPG and swapped the first gearbox (7000 miles ago) I used a genuine VW clutch disk, pressure plate, etc... to avoid more GB issues.

The GB started making noises but you know how this refurbishing companies are so they kept going until the warranty gone and the noise got worse. It didnt actually failed but was about to.
I can buy an aftermarket kit (disk + pressure plate) for 60£ but I just need the disk. Sure there must be somewhere I can buy only the disk!? I saw a genuine VW one on eBay the other day for 35£ but cant find it anymore!!


Doing a conversion of this nature I must think wisely in regards to the budget otherwise I either end up with something dodgy, spend lots of money or even worse dont finish it at all! 

So 25£ here + 25£ there... Thats 150W worth of lithium batteries or a bunch of laser cut brackets instead of a crappy hand made one.
Not a lot, but I ain't spending 40£ on the conversion, so you get the picture!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

No signs of life in the topic 

Well some slow progress has been made.

I have received my Vacuum pump.

It draws 6Amps at 12VDC, gets very hot after a few minutes and takes 15 seconds to fill (empty!!) the servo, so no need for continuous operation.

I have also tested with 4V. It seems to run at a decent temperature and still pulls good vacuum (less, but still functional). Its quieter as well. 

While working with the pump I just remembered that if I wanted a duty cycle dependent on vacuum the best approach would be to use a Variable vacuum sensor. It happens the petrol ICE already has a MAP sensor, which is... a Vacuum sensor!

In the meanwhile I have been playing with my motor, next week will be ready for 208/415V Operation.

I still haven't chosen between 312/614 Voltage. Double or no doubler this is going to be a hard question. Its easier to just dump a DC bus of 600V, but everything is more expensive and the battery price will go up by 30 to 50%.

The Charger has been chosen (Not purchased).

http://www.ev-power.cz/docs/GWL-Power-POW-PFC_1-8kW-Spec.pdf










This is a 3KW model, so I will be able to use it on 13Amp charging stations.
Bigger models are all single phase up to 8KW, I dont see much use in having a 8KW Charger if I can not plug it into a 3 phase outlet. I know Europe rates their sockets at 16/32Amp but in the UK I have never seen bigger than 13.
The Charger has inbuilt active PFC and programmable output in case I have a supply with less than 3KW Available.

The Choosen Voltage is 156V. For safety the charge is done at this voltage instead of 700VDC. It also allows me to balance the packs and its high enough for the Onboard DC-DC Converter to operate, so I have power and AirCon while the car is charging.

Next week I will design the controller for the Vacuum pump and finish the motor.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Half way there... Next weekend I am going to have some fun 

















Beauty 






























Made in UK


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice CTS!

One thing, is the adapter on the motor in the correct position to locate the flywheel axially? It looks like it will protrude too far into the bell housing. This position is critical for clutch operation.

What are you up to with all those wires hanging out the motor sir?


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Also CTS,

I've noticed where your adaptor plate meets the drive shaft (the U gap) it looks a very close fit it's not that it's going to rub on your drive shaft as i know your aware of that, it's when you maybe later in time might have to remove your Electric Motor for inspection or service that you notice that you can't get it out as the plate might catch on to the drive shaft coupler, tho thats depending on how long your Motor length is, it will be a bit of a pain if you end up having to remove both the Gearbox/Transmission still attached to the Motor every time, I do like how you tilted your new motor adaptor plate holes so that when your Motor is finally fitted it will be tilted to the side slightly for easy access to your wire connection box.

Let me know when your ready to fit it as i'd like to be there to give you a hand.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Very nice CTS!
> 
> One thing, is the adapter on the motor in the correct position to locate the flywheel axially? It looks like it will protrude too far into the bell housing. This position is critical for clutch operation.
> 
> What are you up to with all those wires hanging out the motor sir?


The adaptor is universal. 
The position/distance is adjusted with the adapter you see on the motor. I have another one with diferent thickness.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Also CTS,
> 
> I've noticed where your adaptor plate meets the drive shaft (the U gap) it looks a very close fit it's not that it's going to rub on your drive shaft as i know your aware of that, it's when you maybe later in time might have to remove your Electric Motor for inspection or service that you notice that you can't get it out as the plate might catch on to the drive shaft coupler, tho thats depending on how long your Motor length is, it will be a bit of a pain if you end up having to remove both the Gearbox/Transmission still attached to the Motor every time, I do like how you tilted your new motor adaptor plate holes so that when your Motor is finally fitted it will be tilted to the side slightly for easy access to your wire connection box.
> 
> Let me know when your ready to fit it as i'd like to be there to give you a hand.



The adapter plate fits 1mm away from the driveshaft green seal. Its universal for the 02x gearbox family. 

The motor adapter is for the 02a gearbox, since that's the one on the car now. It will touch the driveshaft on the 020 and also the bolts securing the plate on the picture. I didn't bother making one for the 020 

The motor will be cut in shape with the adapter in the picture. I will be able to adjust and remove the GB independent of the motor., but regardless, temember that even on an ICE the GB needs to come out in a certain position due to the flyeheel, its not something trivial to find it, while you mess arround with a 40kg GB 
As with the motor I doubt It may be able to take it out without the GB as the clutch and flyeheel will need to come out of the bellhousing, so I need at least 6cm in the back. 

I hope It don't need to take it out, if I do that's because something was not aligned properly and that is all going to be checked before the motor goes in. Also as an AC there's not much maintance to do. 

Regards.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hello everyone,





mk1man2000 said:


> Let me know when your ready to fit it as i'd like to be there to give you a hand.


mk1man you can come if you like. Give me a ring or something
I am not there for long thought. I usually work 15-30 on Sundays, and Wednesdays, but most of the time Im doing some other work or thinking in small parts to order, etc.
ATM waiting for the termal shrinking tube to finish the motor

Got the adapter plate on the gearbox to check for aligment. 

It was a bit out, as expected, so I had to make some new holes for the motor plate to fit.
GB Dowel pins ordered from VW. Using some old ones now.

Now lets get to the pictures.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)




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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I got a little bit time today to work on the motor.

Before someone tries to reproduce this please bare in mind that the whole operation was done with extreme care not to damage any of the windings while removing the protective coatings. 

Also, this particular motor had series connected windings. Some don’t.
You need good soldering skills. Since this (and most) of the motors don’t have a single wire, but a couple of smaller ones they need to be properly welded, otherwise not all the contacts will make a good connection and this will cause overheating.

As always, do it on your own risk 

Now lets get back to work:















Notice the different readings on the multimeter. 
They are both Delta connected. Before and after the conversion.









Okay, here we see the first wire being connected.












































This is the almost finished project.










Lets cross our fingers 
More to come...soon!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

My little beauty is running!!!





 
























Modification for the Driveshaft:























Overvoltage on the Capacitor bank during Regeneration









Gearbox coupled






























Okay, so I got in trouble today.

I designed the adapter plates for the Polo Flywheel and have completely forgot that if I wanted to use a bigger flywheel that the bolts would need to be modified/recessed.

Well I figured that out today!

So now I am stuck with the polo flywheel, which is not bad, given that I was not happy with the weight of the other one.
I have the complete details of the clutch disks I need now.
I can either use 190mm from the 1.2FSI or 200mm from the 1.4 FSI. 
Both are 28 spline.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

Good work CTS, loooking good!!


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

How to embed, click the youtube icon in the advanced editing mode, then copy and paste just the letters after watch?v=

Looking pretty good. Does your drive have a brake chopper for dealing with the overvoltage during regen?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

cts_casemod said:


> ...
> Before someone tries to reproduce this please bare in mind that the whole operation was done with extreme care not to damage any of the windings while removing the protective coatings.
> ...


Another thing people ought to _bear_ in mind before trying to duplicate your work is that the magnet wire used in motors has insulation rated for 180C, and for good reason. Covering up splices with heat-shrink tubing rated for a maximum operating temperature of 135C is a huge no-no, to say nothing of using what looks like ordinary stranded hook-up wire with, at best, 105C rated insulation (and more likely 75C if its "automotive" wire).


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Not to mention the insulations voltage rating, probably only 600 and he's going to be running what I assume would be peak to peak voltage of 650~680 VDC


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks a lot, I had no clue how to do it 

I dont. The controller has a small brake resistor. If the voltage keeps rising it just lets the motor freewheel and tries to sync 5 seconds later.
I will have to set up that properly with the batteries, ATM I have nothing to do with the power on the DC link. 

The maximun I have seen today was from 640 to 660V.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Another thing people ought to _bear_ in mind before trying to duplicate your work is that the magnet wire used in motors has insulation rated for 180C, and for good reason. Covering up splices with heat-shrink tubing rated for a maximum operating temperature of 135C is a huge no-no, to say nothing of using what looks like ordinary stranded hook-up wire with, at best, 105C rated insulation (and more likely 75C if its "automotive" wire).





subcooledheatpump said:


> Not to mention the insulations voltage rating, probably only 600 and he's going to be running what I assume would be peak to peak voltage of 650~680 VDC


Good points,

The wire is rated for 150C, 1KV. 
The termal shrinking tube was the best i could get my hands on, glue lined. Its rated to 120C.
The major problem I see here is the cable ties I have used that may need to be replaced later with something else.

But, lets not forget that this is the outside of the coils that is going to have forced air blowed by the rotor fan. If they get to 120C the inside of the coils must be like 200C.
Also my VFD is rated for only 20HP so I dont expect major problems for the time being.

Any ideas of better material to replace the shrinking tube?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A few suggestions.

1. You might consider high temperature wire nuts for the connections. Here are some:
http://iseinc.com/Ceramic Wire Nut.htm
http://www.cableorganizer.com/wire-connectors/

2. Wire insulation is generally 600VAC, or 1000V peak DC, so you are probably OK there. You might want to use high tempeature wire like this:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-electrical-wire/=k3vl5j (302 F silicone)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-electrical-wire/=k3vmo8 (482 F PTFE Fiberglass)

3. You can get high temperature shrink tubing:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-shrink-tubing/=k3vo5s

You beat me to the punch with your reply!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

cts_casemod said:


> Any ideas of better material to replace the shrinking tube?


Woven nomex sleeving is typically used. Here in the US you can buy it from McMaster-Carr.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hum... 
Almost a month since list time a have seen my car, can you guys believe?









Well I went back there today. Assembly whith the 02a gearbox was soooo much easier... Lots of Space! I Dont even want to imagine if I was using the original Polo GB 

So I took the clutch and pressure plate and got the motor on the new gearbox to make some measurements for the mounts and acessories.

Considering how much free space there is now its hard to believe this is a polo  









Here we can see the space between the GB and driveshaft. Some members wore worried before, when I was using the 020, so heres a picture for comparison.









Here is the other driveshaft. I still have to build an adapter or change the inner CV Joints to 100mm.









Lots of space for ventilation of the electric motor, however I am a little bit worried about mud and water on winter. *Any advice??*

I am thinking in removing the original motor Fan and replace it with some 12V Fans, pushing the ar out, instead of pulling. This also has the advantage of less drag at higher revs and better low speed cooling.









View of the flywheel and GB Spline shaft









Front View. The rought position of the AC Compressor/PS and Alternator. 
Just before someone asks, the electric motor is *not* going to drive the acessories. I may however need to install an idler pulley on his back as I am not sure I will find a small enought belt.

There is also enought space for my future generator to be chain driven to the back of the engine. Something like a 5 or 10HP ICE sitting on top of the engine bay to use in larger trips to help the electric motor and recharge the batteries while stationary. I am thinking in Diesel or LPG.

There is also an electric FAN to be installed on the left to help the motor cool down at lower revs/high loads









Another view. Notice how much free space there is in the engine bay!!


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Looks like your making good progress there CTS, sorry i couldn't make it this weekend, also like to mention to yourself and all other local EV members out there, i'm buying a brand new Clarke Welder from Machine Mart i've received a unique 13 digit number that will give me 20% off VAT free and ends on the 19th of November i'll be buying the 135 TE that costs £275.98 so will be paying only £229.98 for it great savings, there must be something there for you that you'll need? either way do let me know.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Looks like your making good progress there CTS, sorry i couldn't make it this weekend, also like to mention to yourself and all other local EV members out there, i'm buying a brand new Clarke Welder from Machine Mart i've received a unique 13 digit number that will give me 20% off VAT free and ends on the 19th of November i'll be buying the 135 TE that costs £275.98 so will be paying only £229.98 for it great savings, there must be something there for you that you'll need? either way do let me know.


 
I was hopping to receive a phone call from you today 

I will definitely need some weding, but I have no power were the car is.

How is your golf going? You may want to use one of my adapter plates for your GB. I can get them for about 80£ for 10mm or 50£ if you want 5mm.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

One small thing. In general the in built motor fan is much more powerful in CFM than an add on fan. I wouldn't remove the in-built fan unless for space reasons or bother with an add on fan unless during testing shows overheating.

I've seen some projects use turbos to pump large amounts of air.

http://blog.evtv.me/store/proddetail.php?prod=blowme9


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS it is looking fantastic! Everything is fitting very well now! Glad to see you are having good success. And a bonus on 'getting the adapter wrong for the 020 flywheel' ha ha, free benefit from that!

I am keen to hear how your controller work goes ahead, when you get to actualy running the motor under load of course!


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> I was hopping to receive a phone call from you today
> 
> I will definitely need some weding, but I have no power were the car is.
> 
> How is your golf going? You may want to use one of my adapter plates for your GB. I can get them for about 80£ for 10mm or 50£ if you want 5mm.


Sorry CTS, could not do this weekend had a bit of an emergency come up, am still up for welding for you when your ready and i do also have a generator handy too for your power source, regarding adaptor plate, yours sounds so expensive, i can buy it new 8mm delivered for £20 but ideally i'd like a used recycle one as i'm trying to keep this a recycled EV and to showcase my work on the lowest budget, funny you should mention about how's my Golf's getting on, well it's the very same adaptor plate thats holding me back now for a month and the cold weather too, looks like it's creeping up on me fast, and as you know i'm doing my conversion outside, I may have to put it on hold tho, and that would give more time to play around with my GB/Motor/Coupler and Adaptor plate while they are all in the workshop now, and to better my research for used parts and EV contacts.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Sorry CTS, could not do this weekend had a bit of an emergency come up, am still up for welding for you when your ready and i do also have a generator handy too for your power source, regarding adaptor plate, yours sounds so expensive, i can buy it new 8mm delivered for £20 but ideally i'd like a used recycle one as i'm trying to keep this a recycled EV and to showcase my work on the lowest budget, funny you should mention about how's my Golf's getting on, well it's the very same adaptor plate thats holding me back now for a month and the cold weather too, looks like it's creeping up on me fast, and as you know i'm doing my conversion outside, I may have to put it on hold tho, and that would give more time to play around with my GB/Motor/Coupler and Adaptor plate while they are all in the workshop now, and to better my research for used parts and EV contacts.



Well, this is one of those things you dont want to have wrong.
If you finished the acrylic and you ave a press drill it should be fairly easy 
to reproduce, just make sure you use the dowels and they are spot on.
Also, your front gearbox mount may need some tweeking to fit.


I work almost in the street as well lol. My car front is right againt the garage door, so I am outside the garage while working. Its freezing sometimes. Doesnt bother me I see the car once in a month, I am more than busy making sure everything fits together nicely.

You sure are blessed with the recycled stuff!

Before I came to london i knew where to get all my stuff at scrap prices. Now I have to plan carefully wich parts and materials I use. Next month my budjet is buying Stainless steel and steel for the mounts and "upper deck".


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

CTS

Could you tell me the diameter and PCD of your motor casing without the cooling fins please, and also the length without flanges or minimum length you think with only the front flange fitted (if I attached 2 motors back-to-back).

Thanks!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> CTS
> 
> Could you tell me the diameter and PCD of your motor casing without the cooling fins please, and also the length without flanges or minimum length you think with only the front flange fitted (if I attached 2 motors back-to-back).
> 
> Thanks!


Its a 132 Frame, you can check any manufacturer datasheet.
I dont have it with me ATM, from memory the motor is 15" long and without the rear fan you can save 2", so 13 in Total.

The dimension without the fins is roughly 10".

Take a look at this link:
http://ivanbennett.com/


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks. 132 would be too tight for my Rav, 300mm approx dia. Unless I machined a hunk of steel out the stator for clearance, which scares me. 100 or 112 frame is almost there at 250mm but losing power output fast! Looks like I might need to get rid of my transmission all together if I won't decent AC power for my vehicle. Strongly thinking tat a pair of Highlander (Lexus RX) transaxle a could work. OR those beautiful Sieens/Borg Warner combos from the Azure auction that I couldn't bid on...

I'll cry myself to sleep again now, night folks


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Thanks. 132 would be too tight for my Rav, 300mm approx dia. Unless I machined a hunk of steel out the stator for clearance, which scares me. 100 or 112 frame is almost there at 250mm but losing power output fast! Looks like I might need to get rid of my transmission all together if I won't decent AC power for my vehicle. Strongly thinking tat a pair of Highlander (Lexus RX) transaxle a could work. OR those beautiful Sieens/Borg Warner combos from the Azure auction that I couldn't bid on...
> 
> I'll cry myself to sleep again now, night folks


Check the link I posted, the guy has done a very nice work with his motor.
You could use the same casing he did and just use an water jacket like we have spoken last month, but only on the sides of the motor to give a further 1 or 2 cm on the side it touches your transmission to give you clearence.

What is your available distance anyway? 
My motor is about 370mm long with 260mm diameter without the fins not 300. 
The outer flange is 300. You can also get them with the flange the same size as the body if thats an issue to you.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I dont think I will find someone here with much experience on this but here it goes anyway,

As you guys know my motor now can run at delta 208V.

Since this first conversion is only intended as a city car I am actually thinking to reduce my system voltage to 320V and raise the maximun current on the VFD to 320V * 20KW (about 60Amps), replacing the IGBT pack with a 600V unit.

This should simplify the battery electronics

Any thoughts?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks CTS, have read it before. The motor is too large unfortunately but the principal is what I was looing to do also.

I have 220mm dia before touching the transfer box. I looked up the 132 frame size and it said diameter was ~300mm, not 260, so that is getting closer. My moter can be 500mm long, which is why I was thinking to join 2 end to end on a singme rotor shaft (with the 2 original induction rotors adjacent within their respective stators) and run them in parallel (for the controller) to increase the current and therefore torque from teh smaller motor, and obviously the siamese housing would have water coolign to allow me to run the motor harder to get the torque I want.

My car is 4wd and 75% of my mileage is at highway speeds over 60mph so I need continuous power capable of maintaining this.

Re your voltage, I think it will be possible but read somewhere you need to be careful your inductance sensors can handle the rewind and the drivers can drive the bigger IGBTs.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Thanks CTS, have read it before. The motor is too large unfortunately but the principal is what I was looing to do also.
> 
> I have 220mm dia before touching the transfer box. I looked up the 132 frame size and it said diameter was ~300mm, not 260, so that is getting closer. My moter can be 500mm long, which is why I was thinking to join 2 end to end on a singme rotor shaft (with the 2 original induction rotors adjacent within their respective stators) and run them in parallel (for the controller) to increase the current and therefore torque from teh smaller motor, and obviously the siamese housing would have water coolign to allow me to run the motor harder to get the torque I want.
> 
> ...


In that case you wont be able to have 2 rotors with 500mm in this frame size. The rotor itself was about 25, but you need space for the bearings 

You will have to design your own motor if you want to keep that ratio.
Even the 5.5KW have the same frame size, so the smaller you could get was about 4KW*2.

Have you thought about having one motor for the front axle and another one for the rear axle? This way you could have 2WD or 4WD.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes thought of that but the drive system gets ALOT more complicated since my vehicle has space for a transverse engine layout. I'd need to drive 2 matching differentials, one on each axle, and the forward length needed is too great, otherwise if I turn the diff around to point the motor into the tunnel the tunnel becomes the limitting factor. Those Lexus RX/Hylander transaxles, or even better the Azure Siemens/Borg setups would be great, lots of room underneath at the rear for one, and plenty room in the engine bay for a second, but I couldn't bid...

Thinking the best option now is to either beg/borrow/steal some surplus Azure units from someone or use 2 Hybrid transaxles and find a way of boosting the power capability. Maybe a rewind for Curtis controllers (allows paring) or opening aup and trying to reconfigure the wiring like you've done to lower the voltage of the motor for hte likes of a Tritium Wavesculpter or (Heaven forbid) a Kelly or 2 if cost is limiting (which it is for most of us) and adding cooling to the oil lubrication circuit of the transaxle in the form of an inline oil cooling radiater, and possibly a boosting pump.

Edit: reading Ryan800's conversion thread at home to understand process fo rusing the Hylander transaxle. Not sure where to find them in the UK though, and not keen on thinking of shipping and tax to the UK from the US...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I might be doing that to my diesel. 

The car is old and not worth to convert to electric.
It had an SDI Engine to replace the IDI and now does an average of 5l/60Miles and 4.5l/60 Miles Motorway.

I might convert to hybrid with a "cheap" 3KW pack.

The car seems happy with the extra weight. Having only me a board or 3 people plus 2 gearboxes and a lot of junk doesnt seem to affect mileage at all.

Also, charging the batteries "on the move" is easy and I get a decent boost on Aceleration using the electric motor.

I am still not happy with the idea of a fully electric car. 
From time to time I make some large trips


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> I am still not happy with the idea of a fully electric car.
> From time to time I make some large trips


It's already invented : http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

You just got another project


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> It's already invented : http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
> 
> You just got another project


 
My waiting list is at least 2 years lol 

That particular one is a classic thought 

I just ordered some samples from maxim to start building my own BMS.

There is a huge GAP in the EV Market of a proper BMS for High Voltage operation. The ones I can find are either expensive or do not provide the functionality I want 

Individual cell monitoring throught serial interface
low battery alarm before cut out (Soc =<20%)
balancing info (Led to indicate individual cell is balancing)
Battery fuel Gauge
Last known full charge capacity
Cycle Count
My pack will be 4*48 Cells LiFePO4
If anyone has some links to were I can buy something like this
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=2753&title=low-cost-bms please share!!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more updates,

Lithium boards are being developed. 

Each cell reports to a main unit that displays lowest and highest voltage on the pack. 
It has a serial output for a PC and an output for the charger and isolation relays.









In the meanwhile I went to dig on my old alternator project again.

Here is the alternator and two wires attached to the voltage regulator. They feed the rotor to control torque/speed.








Here are some pictures of the bridge removed and the 6 phase wires. 
Its now wired the in star and its running at 36V.
Final version will run at 48V to Power A/C + Power Steering pump

I am doing some tests with the alternator runing as an induction motor
This will allow operation from a sigle power supply, but requires modifications to the controller
I have managed to induce 1A on the rotor with external sync of the controller.

The modified clutch for the Polo Flywheel to 02a GB arrived today.

More to come soon..


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some updates,

The Motor/Gearbox assembly is finally complete.

TODO: Convert hydraulic to cable clutch mechanism.

I had to modify the clutch pressure plate to fit the larger release bearing sleeve. I have learned a good lesson: Do not buy cheap files. I had to use two of them and the job was extremely hard. I removed 3mm of material.
























The original hole was 30mm, its now 36.

Everithing bolted as it should. 
I have run the motor at slow speed with a 36V controller. 
I also tried by hand. Being an AC motor two fingers are enought to spin the motor/flywheel/gearbox. Hardly any friction.

Here is a Video. The day was dark today so the quality is poor. It shows the motor spinning by pulses (the controller is not quite compatible) and me going throught the gears.





 
There is a smal rubbing noise thought. You cant here it on the Video, as the motor is running by pulses, but it can be heard if spun by hand.

Its not metalic, looks like plastic/ruber. Everithing spins free and without vibrations so I will assume maybe the clutch bearing. No noise with the clutch pressed. 

I need to run the thing at 3000RPM and check again.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hello Everyone,

Brand new year, and brand new updates on the Polo,

I have been working on background for the last couple of months so nothing much done on the actual car
The car has had a non standard gearbox for reasons quoted a few topics behind and as such I have been busy getting the drive-train (engine + gearbox) to fit on the place.

I am happy to say that the final prototype is done and the drive-train is sitting on the car. I am now working on the drive-shafts. 

After lots of research and trial, mounts wise, I have decided to go with a diesel mount on the electric motor side, and the petrol one goes in the gearbox side, replacing the old mount. They fit perfectly. I had to remove the battery tray, but since I will go with a smaller LiFePo4 that should not be a problem.
















I ordered a brand new long drive-shaft one from VW, from an automatic gearbox polo. Its a bit shorter and has the 100mm flanges just like my new gearbox. I haven't finished with the shorter one, but I believe just replacing the inner CV Joint with a 100mm one (and a bit of machining to do that) will work just fine keeping the car as standard as possible.























The other side has about 2 - 3cm clearence









The Flange Dimensions










Half of my batteries are being custom made to specs. I will go with modules, since I need to be able to remove them. Each module will have its own contactor, fuse, BMU and possibly a 500W charger. (2KW for the whole pack) A master BMS will read the signals from all the modules and display info to the driver and associated on-board systems (VFD, Charger, HVC, LVC and Precharge).


















At the moment I am also working on the charger and 12V Power supply.
I am planing to make my own chargers either 144 or 288V and a high power (80Amps+) 12V Power supply for the AirCon Fans. I will post further updates on this in the next couple of months.


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

High CTS, I too have put my Golf conversion on hold due to the dark evenings and lack of day light however it's giving me plenty of time to built a Open Revolt motor controllor and hunt around for some recycled EV parts, take look below and see what i've found and it all came from an EV Ford Transit. 















Dc to AC Inverter















240 - 305vdc Chargers and theres 2 of them































AC Motor than ran i think the power steering and A/C






















Images
Map
 















About 5 miles of thick copper power cables

 














Gear stick










Potentiometer rev foot pedal i also have the brake pedal too that has a PB6 box attached to it (forgot to picture it) and suspect that was used for Re-Gen braking.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> High CTS, I too have put my Golf conversion on hold due to the dark evenings and lack of day light however it's giving me plenty of time to built a Open Revolt motor controllor and hunt around for some recycled EV parts, take look below and see what i've found and it all came from an EV Ford Transit.


Hi Mkman, 

Daylight and weather are some issues now, but it is amazing how there is always something to do!

The other day I got my 12V headway accessory battery and attached the thing to a power inverter to run the drill and a 36W fluorescent tube. Its great not having to carry 20Kg of lead upstairs!
















Thats a good setup you have there - Contactor, fuses, cable.

Talking about the open revolt, do you come along with old IGBT's on your jobs? I was looking to source some some at a decent price (not eBay for sure!!)

I've seen a few hydraulic pumps like that used to cool down the motor/controller (oil cooled). Shame you didn't got the motor as well.

Do you have some photos of your current work?


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

I Did pick up 2 old Motor Controllers the other day 24v and 36v came from a forklift, I might have some IGBT's inside them however, you could contact me EV friend Professor Mohammed at [email protected] he'll be able to get you some brand new ones instead, he's currently helping me build the Open Revolt Controller, also i was very upset to find that someone beat me to the Ford Transit direct drive AC electric motor, Controller, and about £10,000 worth or Lithium batteries, but hey guess what too, i've found a fella who happens to have a full set of lithium cells that came out of a new 2012 written off EV Honda it's all still attached in it's casing, a well packed space saver wheel well casing and looks so advance compact and neat and could easily be made to fit in to the smallest of cars, don't really do photos but to can see my latest clips of my EV conversion on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/user/mk1man2000/videos best wishes and hope to see you some time soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> I Did pick up 2 old Motor Controllers the other day 24v and 36v came from a forklift, I might have some IGBT's inside them however, you could contact me EV friend Professor Mohammed at [email protected] he'll be able to get you some brand new ones instead, he's currently helping me build the Open Revolt Controller, also i was very upset to find that someone beat me to the Ford Transit direct drive AC electric motor, Controller, and about £10,000 worth or Lithium batteries, but hey guess what too, i've found a fella who happens to have a full set of lithium cells that came out of a new 2012 written off EV Honda it's all still attached in it's casing, a well packed space saver wheel well casing and looks so advance compact and neat and could easily be made to fit in to the smallest of cars, don't really do photos but to can see my latest clips of my EV conversion on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/user/mk1man2000/videos best wishes and hope to see you some time soon.


Ouch...! That was bad luck really! 
Maybe you can still use the chargers, thought.

Beware while purchasing lithium batteries. They might seem appealing but there are a number of issues you might have.

Real test under load (You wont be ale to do it outside the car) 
BMS (Most are undocumented so you will have to open the pack and rewire a new one)
Non Standard Voltages (You'll need to find a suitable charger)
Capacity (These batteries are only 1 or 2KWH so you will end up mixing different batteries to have reasonable size pack)

I've seen them, but nothing new yet


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

PROGRESS!!

Finally cracked the LVC on the VFD

I was looking at a smaller one on eBay, which I bought to run the A/C. Its rated at 5.5KW/7.5HP with 180% Overload capacity, so quite capable of running the car at slow speed in case the worse happened.

Well, I opened the drive to clean and have been identifying the components and was able to successfully modify it to run at 320VDC.

Some tests done with a dehumidifier (runs fine with only one output phase)

I have also sourced at 100Amps 600VDC Smart Module IGBT so this ends up the a long story of issues with battery voltage. I will now be able to run the thing at 320VDC and have room for a future upgrade at 450 or 650V if I ever need more that 25HP on the car.

UPDATE:

Hitachi VFD also running on 320V successfully, cuts out at 220VDC with current settings. Similar to the above, not so logical thought (You'll need to know what to look for).

I will probably convert this one to higher power as no major changes are necessary to the board layout (only need to make sure the power supply can hold at lower voltage)

Updates soon


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I finally got the last piece to make the drivetrain usable.

The missing driveshaft!
















CV Gator is split, have yet to take care of this with the seller, wasn't listed as such. Better of if bought new as I did with the other side...

Funny enough, the seller told me the item was not compatible with an auto gearbox (advertised as from a manual). It looked like it came from an auto and the picture was of the item so I took the risk and purchased anyway.

The part arrived, part number is for an auto GB, and he's selling other parts of the same car including an auto-gearbox. WT*? 

Now to center the gearbox with the driveshafts and see if they do really fit (fingers crossed) and make the laser cut brackets for the mounts.

My battery boxes are ready by Monday and the batteries will be shipped with them by then.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Congratulations CTS. You are making excellent progress!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Congratulations CTS. You are making excellent progress!


Still a lot of hard work to come over the next year or so, but I am happy to say that soon it will be functional.

The money I am paying for the small garage (£1100/year) is well enough to have insurance on both cars and save a bit for the rest of the conversion. 

The only thing I can tell you is I cant wait for the day I finish my degree and get well away from London. Everything is ridiculously expensive here...


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi everyone,

Nice weather out there 










Good news on the Polo, the transmissions are on and I only need to centre the drive-train now. I need to push it 2cm to the passenger side, so it gives more clearance to the motor FAN which is great.

New VW CV Gator



















Yesterday I’ve tried to run the thing with a 1KW inverter but for some reason even before the inverter was overloaded the output voltage started to drop (at less than 600 Watt output) , so only good to help push the car.

I decided to order an electric power steering pump instead of trying to find a suitable belt for the alternator. For £10+PP I thought I might save myself the hassle to re-invent the wheel again!

Now I also have updates on the charger.
To my surprise it did work first time, stable 160VDC output with some random resistor components I had lying around. (Final voltage will be 170V).

I will not give much details on the charger, instead I will give an explanation of how to do it. 
The reason for this is that these things are dangerous and if you are not able to get there with my description you probably won’t have enough knowledge to safely do it.
As with anything on this topic I take no responsibility if you kill yourself with voltages over 400V or turn your house into a ball of flames. 
My conversion uses very high voltages and if you try to duplicate my work make sure the components, cables, power supplies and anything else are rated for such. 
DO NOT TRY TO RUN 400V POWER SUPPLIES AT 600V+ AS THE INSULATION WIL BREAK AND SOMETHING MAY CATCH FIRE AT ANY MOMENT!
Working with this voltages you need to divide your circuit in blocks and they are to be DISABLED if the bonnet is open, the ignition is off, etc. so you have smaller blocks with 200V, at most!
The objective is to have a cheap enough charger, with universal input voltage, PFC, high quality, high efficiency, capable of having different charge voltages, if required and can be used on this block structure so the car will not have lethal voltages while parked or charging. Also a failure on one of the battery packs will not damage the whole pack.

For the low voltage charger “all” you have to do is modify the feedback circuit to something around 14-14.4V and add a current control circuit.
We will need a few wires coming out from the power supply
1 wire for the voltage sense,
1 wire for GND,
1 wire for the shunt resistor (If present),
1 wire to turn the PS ON,
1 wire to the master output voltage.










You will use these wires later to make a CC-CV PS able to charge batteries.
If there is not a current shunt inside you will have to place one outside. It will be used to throttle the voltage once the maximum current is reached.

For AT/ATX power supplies my advice is to use the 5V line, regulated to 7V, tie both ends in series to get 14 and rectify using external high speed diodes to keep the PS cool. This has the advantage to double output wattage (Output is PS1+PS2) and the load is well shared.
Cables should be kept SHORT because of RFI.
It can be used in both 300 to 400V circuits (parallel) and 500 to 800V circuits (series) and you should expect about 30 to 40Amps output from two ATX power supplies.
If you use a 144V system look for a power supply with active PFC. The PFC will boost the input to 400V and can work with the mains when the car is charging (say you switch the DC-DC of and run with the 12V battery if the main pack is low and you want to recharge the 12V battery at home).
Units with a 120/230VAC will not work on 144V systems as these rely on an internal voltage doubler that only works with AC.

For the main charger is an all different story.

Chinese chargers are not very high quality (over rated) and to my application I need 4 chargers. I do not want to buy 4*1.5KW as a minimum and there are no 750V chargers.
Cost is an imperative issue, and I don't want to compromise on safety/quality
I have seen a good charger here in the forum, but the output power was 12KW, so a real waste. The most I can hardwire here is 6KW and I cannot/don't want to hardwire because I live in a rented flat and I only have 13Amps sockets (3KW). I was also limited to the mains voltage, which again is barely enough to charge 2 packs in series. Another problem: No Isolation. I don't want a non-isolated charger on my car and I can’t not use them in series if they are not isolated.

For cost reasons I have used 300 Watts power supplies, but you can find anything between 250 and 1.5KW. For an ATX power supply take 200W as the output. They are mostly over rated.
My setup will take 6 to 8 hours to charge my pack from 0% SOC (10 Amps @ 640VDC Nominal = 6.4KW)
This time I used a server PSU. This kind of power supplies are very complex, and there are several protections built into them. There are no conversions on the WEB explaining the insides of these, so if you decide to go this way you have a very high quality PS unit, but you will need to know what to do. The internal PFC boosts the voltage to 400V so even if you work with 100V to test, inside 400V will be present.
I would recommend to start with an older ATX power supply. The AT type is an even better choice if they can be found (pre 1996) (I've learned about SMPS with AT power supplies 10 years ago).


With 4 chargers at 300 watts each, plus two for the 12V side, I have a total of 1.8KW, but the main pack can be upgraded for 600Watts each, so 2400+600= 3KW – Perfect for UK charging points use.

You cannot get 180V from a 12V SMPS and I don't recommend to rewire the transformers as they work with high frequencies and this may cause several issues
To get this voltage the transformer was removed from the power supply and the secondary attached to another transformer from an identical power supply. This will boost the voltage back to 400V and HERE we can regulate the output. You obviously need two identical power supplies.

Since at least one of the units is damaged so we can take a look at the layout and make some tests, some components can be sourced from it. An inductor should also be used after the output transformer secondary and before the diodes. 
The minimum output voltage will vary with the quality of the PSU, operating frequency and Load.
The maximum guaranteed output voltage for models with active PFC is 340V and for models without or with passive PFC the mains peak voltage – 50V.

For the feedback circuit current 1 to 10mA are good values. I used 2.2KOhm and 27KOhm for my voltage divider resistor. A load is needed on the secondary of the SMPS with at least 10Watts to keep proper regulation as the low voltage output resistors are not used now.










Same wires to the output for the current control circuit as with the 12V charger. This will be discussed later but is based on a reference voltage and a few comparators.

PS- What’s wrong on the forum? It used to compact images automatically now we have to do it before upload!?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Vacuum pump controler finished yesterday. 

Some problems with RFI from power supply so working on different method with good results so far.

PS Unit cold (Both high side and rectifiers) with 1.80Amps @ 100V load

More updates and pictures soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Here are some pictures from the finished Vacuum pump controller.




























It is based on a 555 Voltage to PWM converter.

The MAP Sensor reads the pressure and the pump speed is reduced as the vacuum builds up. This should fix the noise issue as the pump will never work on full speed other than a few seconds on startup (Or in case of a leak).

I might make this part of the BMS Master controller I am working on at another forum, as it is an essential part of any EV.

The power supply modifications are done, now I need to test it for a few hours, but I haven't got any Fan (at least working). Also pending create a PCB for the auxiliary HV electronics, add a Fan to the casing and double check operation with a scope.

This one is based on a voltage multiplier before the rectifiers. I has an amazing power efficiency, losses are about 15Watts at full load.

Takes 25 Amps AC from the 12V transformer and boosts into 175V (Feedback regulated)

Maximum Power was just about 400 Watt.

Total Load [email protected] + 15V @ 2Amp = 380Watts. I could still add a further 21W light bulb to the 15V line before the power supply would cut.

Rated at 325W thats not bad!

I have limited the power to 144V @ 2Amps. Runs up to 175V CV to charge a 153V LiFePO4 Battery bank.

Some pictures of the setup:

The power supply with modifications


















The whole setup
14 series connected 12V 21W bulbs and a 60W 220V Incandescent light bulb.
Voltage multiplier,
Power Supply
Multimeter.



























Some temperatures after 5-10 minutes operation at full load without FAN


















Room Temperature: 11C

Power Transformer: 65C
High Side Heatsink: 29C
Voltage Multiplier Heatsink (12 Diodes): 50C
Bulbs: too hot to touch!!!!

The multiplier circuit is upgradeable to 2 PSU's, it can do 350V or twice the current as required.

Comments Welcome!!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi CTS,

Forgive me if I have missed something but your vacuum pump controller looks a bit overcomplicated.

What is it actually controlling? pump on and off at different vacuum level?

Cheers,

Mike


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

skooler said:


> Hi CTS,
> 
> Forgive me if I have missed something but your vacuum pump controller looks a bit overcomplicated.
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

My controller varies the speed of the pump proportionally to the vacuum level, its not on/off.
I have used the original VW MAP (Vacuum) sensor to get an absolute reading.

Not complicated at all, just the 555 IC, a Mosfet, Clamping Diode, and a few decoupling capacitors to clean any noise caused by the PWM carrier frequency.

Regards


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> My controller varies the speed of the pump proportionally to the vacuum level, its not on/off.
> I have used the original VW MAP (Vacuum) sensor to get an absolute reading.
> ...


That makes perfect sense. My only comment is that keeping something like brakes simple is a good idea. What if one of you components (e.g. MOSFET) fails? do you lose vacuum?

As a comparison, I use a vacuum switch whitch opens above ~28 inches mercury. This switch controls a 5 second timer relay which in turn switches the pump relay. So vacuum gets to 28"Hg and the pump stays on for a further 5 seconds, the pump will not come back on until vacuum drops below 28"Hg and the process restarts.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your setup, just that it looks a little overcomplicated with more potential failure points.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

skooler said:


> That makes perfect sense. My only comment is that keeping something like brakes simple is a good idea. What if one of you components (e.g. MOSFET) fails? do you lose vacuum?
> 
> As a comparison, I use a vacuum switch whitch opens above ~28 inches mercury. This switch controls a 5 second timer relay which in turn switches the pump relay. So vacuum gets to 28"Hg and the pump stays on for a further 5 seconds, the pump will not come back on until vacuum drops below 28"Hg and the process restarts.
> 
> I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your setup, just that it looks a little overcomplicated with more potential failure points.


I could do that, but it is more refined to have variable speed. The pump will never operate at full speed, other than a few seconds on startup and as an added advantage I have a signal proportional to the vacuum if I want to use an electric gauge.

If there was a failure on the controller the series mosfet would short, and the pump would run at full speed, which would be quickly noticed on an EV. In the event that for some reason the fuse would blown the brake light on the dash will illuminate, giving me time before fully loosing vacuum, so its pretty much bullet proof, I think


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Back in here after two restless nights...

An error on my documentation has costed me 3 power supplies and two nights of work

I started to organise the power supply and when i come to assemble the pictures were not taken with enough resolution and I had an error telling me to reference to GND instead of VCC.

I had to start the work again, but this time I tried a coupe different methods. Good news the power supply is finnaly finished.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On my previous design I was having issues with the voltage doubler. 

Carefull examination of the circuit showed that the inductors were feeding the doubler at more that 12V and spikes were causing the diodes to conduct backwards.

New layout was designed and half wave 10 stage doubler replaced with a 4 stage (x2) full wave doubler. 
Capacitors were replaced - smaller and more suitable for higher frequency
Current controll protection was improved and power supply is silent without any visible voltage spikes
General efficiency improvements. Transformer now outputs full power (150V @ 2.10Amps) at only 15V, before was 19 (144V @ 2.0Amps) requiring change on caps on power supply.
Much smaller circuit


Current control circuit was improved.

I thought of a simple way to have CC without much hardware and have a safety feature in the case one of the diodes or capacitors shorts, since there would be no current on the secondary, however it could lead the transformer to output a very high voltage trying to compensate.

The solution i've found was simple.
The 12V original line was modified with the use of a zenner to cut at 15V.

Normally the 172V output is regulated and the 12V line is disregarded.
As the current increases the dutty cycle is increased and the voltage on the transformer slowly goes up, to a point where the 12V line voltage reaches 15V. The dutty cycle is now locked and the 172V voltage is ignored. 

As further capacity is required the current goes up and the voltage goes down (Constant Power) since the duty cycle is kept constant by the 12V line. Same happens if there is a failure on the multiplier.

So a cheap and efficient way of building a CC-CV power supply.

Some images:

(Ignore the mess, I had a few nights with 2h sleep)

Power supply - No load










60Watt light bulb (Current draw 0,40Amps @ 165V)










150V @ 2.10Ams










PS: I am late!! batteries here by monday, BMS not built yet (that comes next)!!

Speaking about batteries here is a picture of my battery boxes empty










##


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The contactors arrived today. 
They draw an impressive 3Amps @ 15VDC each.

Can someone tell me if this is a normal draw for a contactor?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I know my albright takes 1.4A, I haven't measured the EV200 but it feels like more.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

I just measured an EV200 : 0.12A (120mA), but it have an economizer.

I am sure you can build some economizer's with yours skills, just Google it


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> I just measured an EV200 : 0.12A (120mA), but it have an economizer.
> 
> I am sure you can build some economizer's with yours skills, just Google it


Many thanks, 
I just found the problem, the coil is AC.

I did something similar to an economizer, a DC DC converter, regulated for 5V. Capacitor on feedback pin, so once it starts takes about 1 second for that capacitor to charge keeping the feedback pin low and full output voltage for the contactor to engage. After one second when the contactor is engaged the voltage goes back to 5V just to keep it closed

Now drawing only 250mA @ 12V


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Many thanks,
> I just found the problem, the coil is AC.
> 
> I did something similar to an economizer, a DC DC converter, regulated for 5V. Capacitor on feedback pin, so once it starts takes about 1 second for that capacitor to charge keeping the feedback pin low and full output voltage for the contactor to engage. After one second when the contactor is engaged the voltage goes back to 5V just to keep it closed
> ...


I wasn't expected anything less from you  .

Keep up with the good work.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The Polo has hit the roads for the first time today.

I am having overload issues with my VFD. 
The car is only running at 350V, yet the unit hits overcurrent during startup. (Motor set up for 415V) After the car is up to speed drives OK, but again I am having issues with regeneration.

Maximun speed was about 35Km/h on straight line, first gear, limited by motor maximun speed (120Hz). Wont start on second gear.
After a 500m ride the motor was 5C above ambient temperature. No FAN installed.

I Plan to upgrade a different unit to twice as much current (50Amps). 

Vacuum pump installed,
Power steering pump needs to be fixed
Waiting for some more cable to finish 12V line and fix the VSD on Place

Lots of changes to the electric part to be done yet
BMS PCB's on order

Other minor stuff left to do before MOT


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more tweeking today with the unit.

I managed to stop the unit tripping with overload and some other settings with the trottle. The ride is a bit improved now. I can now start on second gear, however the unit will limit to about the same speed as 1st gear. Acceleration is faster, inrush current is higher. 

I ordered a 100Amp Smart Module, which should solve most of this issues I am having now. I am quite happy with the performance so far, acceleration after take off is quite good for the power I have available.

I dont think torque boost is working, or at least the 20% my unit does is rubish. It feels like V/Hz and I have to be carefull with the throttle.

The issue with regen is fixed, althought its very annoying when driving slowly. Its like hitting the brakes each time I take the foot of the accelerator. Tomorrow I will do some work on the car and will install a sensor on the brake to enable max regen, I will default the standard at 20% and disable it at all if the clutch pedal is pressed. Should help both parking and reversing, while keeping the same feeling as a a petrol car.

Changing gears with an AC system wont be as easy as I thought. There is a compromise between inrush current, acceleration time and regen. If a gear is changed the settings are no longer optimised. 

I will also install a switch to enable reverse (including light) and the panel on the front of the car to have some readings of whats going on.

As with system voltage, since this is a city car, I will go with a 384V. I should be able to use 600V rated devices and double the current, which should give me better low end acceleration.

I havent been posting photos as I am rushing up on the work and I am alone. I would like the car to be MOT'ed and Insured by next week.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Some more tweeking today with the unit.
> 
> I managed to stop the unit tripping with overload and some other settings with the trottle. The ride is a bit improved now. I can now start on second gear, however the unit will limit to about the same speed as 1st gear. Acceleration is faster, inrush current is higher.
> 
> ...



Hi, I just started driving my clutchless AC system and I have 2 observations : its very easy to change gears if I turn off the regeneration (my controller has a regeneration off switch), and 2nd, until I will learn to use the regeneration and coasting positions of the pedal I am just switching off the reg. until I need it.

My plan is to install the reg. off switch on the shifter.

Congratulations for your drive test.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

My VFD is acting funny. It seems to be operating on V/Hz. I had to disable regen at all. I might get an encoder. Wondering if the ones for the brushless motors can be used. They are 3 ph as well.

Took car to the MOT today. Not ready, so, expected to fail as it did.

Funny part was why it failed. 

Maybe its those HV Wires loose going into the cabin
Maybe its the servo with no vacuum
Maybe its the batteries as they are not secured

Nop.
It was the power steering, becase it wasnt electrically conected!? Lol!

By the way I am pissed as I think the unit may actually be faulty. Contacted the eBay seller to ask details. Will get another one tomorrow.

Mk2Man, any spare racks from your old golf?  lol


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> My VFD is acting funny. It seems to be operating on V/Hz. I had to disable regen at all. I might get an encoder. Wondering if the ones for the brushless motors can be used. They are 3 ph as well.
> 
> Took car to the MOT today. Not ready, so, expected to fail as it did.
> 
> ...


So, next time when you go there, they will check only the power steering or everything again ?


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

TEV said:


> So, next time when you go there, they will check only the power steering or everything again ?


Hi CTS, what racks are you referring too? would be glad to help in anyway if i can, also did i tell a found a place where I could buy used EV AGM Batteries here in London for around £40 each, they are 76Ah and are aroubnf 27 kilos.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Managed to sort some free time so lets get to the interesting bit: The photos



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Note: Most of this photos are not updated they are the last I took though.

I have thought about the PS issue and I come to the conclusion: If I am doing a lightweight and efficient car it would not make sense to pay £30 for a power steering pump and having to buy a £200 accessory battery (That I HAVE to carry upstairs).

So I have decided to ditch the hydraulic setup and go fully electric (EPAS). Again I will use the Vauxhall Parts, a pump from the corsa. The pinout is documented and I have all the required signals available on my car. 

I ordered a pump and ECU and tomorrow will take the polo apart and prepare all the stuff to send to the machine shop for the modifications. Sure my Wife will be delighted to park with only one finger, maybe I go for a park assist system as well 

Just the right time since I have the wiring for the reverse, rev counter and other systems to do.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Yor pack is 204.8V/10A ?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

My pack is currently 345.6V @ 10Ah and 12.8V @ 30Ah, lithium.
When the possibility comes I will upgrade to 384V @ 20Ah.


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## polobear (Nov 13, 2012)

Man this is inspiring!I'm doing the exact same car at the moment, about to mount the motor so im a lot further off than you, when do you plan to get it MOT'd again? Im driving the power steering pump that was driven from the accessory belt by a 24v DC scooter type motor, it will have a switch in the car, just using it for tight parking and the MOT test, otherwise it will be too much drain on the accessory battery.

I feel your pain with the VSD problems,although your drive seems to be quite simple, having trouble with an ABB ACS 800 166kW drive at work at the moment,bloody intelligent networks. makes me even happier that im going with a DC PWM system.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi CTS

Looking great! Couldn't find it in your thread, but what batteries are you using please? And what are their discharge ratings please? Were they difficult to source? Is there any examples or experience of using these cells please?

Looking forward to see how your road tests go!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

polobear said:


> Man this is inspiring!I'm doing the exact same car at the moment, about to mount the motor so im a lot further off than you, when do you plan to get it MOT'd again? Im driving the power steering pump that was driven from the accessory belt by a 24v DC scooter type motor, it will have a switch in the car, just using it for tight parking and the MOT test, otherwise it will be too much drain on the accessory battery.
> 
> I feel your pain with the VSD problems,although your drive seems to be quite simple, having trouble with an ABB ACS 800 166kW drive at work at the moment,bloody intelligent networks. makes me even happier that im going with a DC PWM system.


Thanks, Hope you can get some inspiration from this topic.

I am working on another VFD at the moment, for higher power, just waiting for the parts to get here. I will do the re-test as soon as the Power steering is on, only have 7 days left othwerwise will have to pay for the MOT again.

My original idea was with the alternator as a brushless, no need to make brakets, you use the original one. Only thing you need is a smaler belt. I give up, just because like you say its quite some drain.

If you find a small enought notor you can use the stock gearbox, so less trouble with the mounts.

Good luck


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> My pack is currently 345.6V @ 10Ah and 12.8V @ 30Ah, lithium.
> When the possibility comes I will upgrade to 384V @ 20Ah.


What range do you expect from your current configuration ?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Hi CTS
> 
> Looking great! Couldn't find it in your thread, but what batteries are you using please? And what are their discharge ratings please? Were they difficult to source? Is there any examples or experience of using these cells please?
> 
> Looking forward to see how your road tests go!


I spent quite some time looking for the cells. I tested headways, A123 and this ones and had quite some other requests for information from several vendors.

Some aspects were:
Good performance,
Cost,
Easy to assemble
SAFETY,
Support from manufacturer.

I found that many are just sellers on china selling you second grade batteries and cant tell anything about them.
As with cost these ones werent the cheapest - $15 per cell plus taxes and postage, but they have a good compromise between safety, are easy to assemble, and I had a great support from the manufacturer, including the custom made boxes you see on the pictures.

The company is Hangzhou _LIAO Technology_
You may want to contact them, they know their stuff. Look for Shelly.

The Specs are 3C Continuous Discharge and 5C Peak. They are conservative, unlike the headways that say 10C. They get hot at 3C!
Here are some graphs I asked her. I also asked for individual cells if someone wants.

View attachment test report 3.2v10ah LiFePO4 cells from Brusa.pdf


So Far I am 100% Happy the cells arrived balanced and on the first charge after use the two packs had the same voltage (158.9V). My headways will give me the rated capacity, but the voltage varies a lot between cells.

I am manually charging them. Waiting for the BMS PCB.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> What range do you expect from your current configuration ?



Theoretically 15 miles, I do daily commutes of 5 miles each way. Its not a lot but adds up to £50 a month in Diesel. I have plenty of room for an upgrade

In reality we shall see, the car is a feather, stock weights 845KG, now should be about 750-800.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> Hi, I just started driving my clutchless AC system and I have 2 observations : its very easy to change gears if I turn off the regeneration (my controller has a regeneration off switch), and 2nd, until I will learn to use the regeneration and coasting positions of the pedal I am just switching off the reg. until I need it.
> 
> My plan is to install the reg. off switch on the shifter.
> 
> Congratulations for your drive test.


 
My issue is not with the actual motor. Its all about software. I have an acceleration time set to 10 seconds. Thats great in one gear, but when I Change to the next one, the same 10 seconds take the car do double the speed so the motor pulls much more current and the unit trips.

Olther issue I always have maximun torque. So with upper gears the car just jumps foward and the unit trips. Stupid really. I am sure the unit is working in V/Hz althought the torque control is set. 
Cant wait to have the other unit readdy. Hoppefully this isues will be all gone.


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> Thanks, Hope you can get some inspiration from this topic.
> 
> I am working on another VFD at the moment, for higher power, just waiting for the parts to get here. I will do the re-test as soon as the Power steering is on, only have 7 days left othwerwise will have to pay for the MOT again.
> 
> ...


Hello there CTS, theres a MOT Testing Garage I use in E2 that is no pass no fee ideal for peace of mind and the test is only £34.99 if your car passes.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks! 
I should have no issues with the MOT. I can do a free re-test up to thursday, lets hope they dont pick with anything else.


I knew the car was gonna fail, just wanted to know exactly where, because each station picks with something different. It was, although, unfurtunate to be the power steering as that was an expensive thing... And not really needed, much more important things to take care now. Like food on the table, insurance...!!!! Poor man's life!




Wiring is all sorted out now, servo is fully working, power steering is almost ready.



The insurance for the Diesel car expired today... Problems, problems...
My premium doesnt get any lower even thought me and my mrs are both over 25 with 5y NCD. Over £800 for a 60BHP N.A. Diesel. Insane!
Half for the Polo, thankfully!



Here are some updates on the ongoing work:
I am just waiting for the new IGBT pack to come. Should triple the available power into something that can actually climb sme hills and do over 20MPH 

After 3 days of thinking I've been working with the engineering shop and got the parts machined and MIG welded. Only missing the lower bracket for the pedal box, find a suitable space for the ECU and wire it all togheter. I've run the unit on bench. I also managed to keep the car stock, no component relocation was required. Quite tight. 




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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

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I have opted to remove the adjustable steering height and keep it fixed. Its always set to maxiun anyway. The securing bolts were safety ones, I had to cut them with the grinder and tap them with a chisel.


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I took the bracket off to use it, but it was hitting the pedal box, so I just used the upper part in th end.


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One of the parts machined to secure the PS assembly and the ignition barrel/bearing.


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this was the original vauxhall spline shaft for the steering wheel being machined. It was placed inside the original VW shaft and it can be removed if required. (Picture of the outside tmorrow)


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

*
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The same shaft I was talking about before. This was my first try and adjustment.


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There was another adapter machined to fill this gap. I decided not to weld on the spline, just in case I ever need to swap the cullumn. It will also protect the bearing from the heat.


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And this is the missing bracket I need to do to secure to the pedal box.*

And thats it for today.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Great news, my insurer renewed the diesel car policy. Instead of the usual £800 a year they were now charging over £1000. I asked them if I had made a claim without knowing or something. The answer was no, but that was the best price.

In the last 3 years the insurance went from 600 to over £1000 and every year I have one more year no claims. Maybe its a claim discount instead of no claims discount. I'm confused.

Another trip with the polo today. This time to the MOT station and back home.
MOT OK. They didn't clear the advisories thought. Theres no play on the motor mounts now. They said it was because they were hand made and I had to cover the wires with some tube, not just tidy them up.
They also told me the brakes were fine, now with the servo working, but there are advisories? Whatever.



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I sent some pictures to pluginsure, so should have a quote soon. Cant take care of the tax before the car is insured. I'll pop on the DVLA office tomorrow to change the fuel type and then I only need to go to the post office to get the tax.

Will charge the batteries tonight. They've done over 10 miles now. No issues.
IGBT and BMS PCB arrived. Only need to sort out some time. Some idiot stole my wallet on the train yesterday. I have no documents. Case sent to the Police.


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Congratulation matey, you've done so well and your making me so jealous, would love to pop over to you some day to give you a hand and learn from you too at the same time, I am so proud of you and your one of a kind and so advance, are you sure this is your first build? also whats your total cost of your build so far, i bet it's a fortune especially with those new batteries you have got there, i'm hopping to keep my Golf EV build under £1,000 and it's looking good so far, and my aim is to use 100% recycled parts, well at least 90%.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Your MOT garage needs a few lessons, advisories are for issues that may become problems soon or marginal performing components.

#3 & #7 should not be there at all!

#4 is just funny, how else would your mounts be made?, by chimps or extraterestrials perhaps? 

Well done on the MOT


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

mk1man2000 said:


> Congratulation matey, you've done so well and your making me so jealous, would love to pop over to you some day to give you a hand and learn from you too at the same time, I am so proud of you and your one of a kind and so advance, are you sure this is your first build? also whats your total cost of your build so far, i bet it's a fortune especially with those new batteries you have got there, i'm hopping to keep my Golf EV build under £1,000 and it's looking good so far, and my aim is to use 100% recycled parts, well at least 90%.


Hi Mate, we need to meet one day. I want to see the golf as well.
Its my first car build, but I am used to engine conversions and crazy stuff. I also have a self build electric bike.

My conversion has been about £3000, car included. Half of this was for the shiny batteries and boxes. I have some more hardware to install (already purchased) but I lack time and its a real pain if I cant have the car on the road.

If your aim is a city car and you have space to charge outside I believe you might make it, at least in parts, if you can source some good, used batteries and a motor, which you have already. You might have to spend a bit more in machinery work and similar. My advice: don't let them think by you. They take too much time that comes out of our pocket and you might end up with something not exactly as you wanted. Make sure you tell them exactly what you want and take your time making sure is safe/will work. Some things you can do by yourself, others, like my electric steering, clutch adapter, etc I only want proper MIG welding and machined parts that are quite expensive to do. Same for the batteries, lithium is a time bomb if not taken care properly. Lead is safer, in case of a crash as the electrolyte will spill. In Case of a lithium box it will likely burn if deformed. Small things that may take you out of trouble if the worst ever happens.

Good luck with your build


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

favguy said:


> Your MOT garage needs a few lessons, advisories are for issues that may become problems soon or marginal performing components.
> 
> #3 & #7 should not be there at all!
> 
> ...


Thanks. You are right. I am not too bothered about 3 and 7, but I was a bit pi*** about 4. The car had never been driven the first time I went there, so there was some play. I fixed that and they said it was still doing it. What is doing is regenerating and stop regenerating because its working in V/Hz mode in first gear without clutch!

The wiring has also been fixed apart from under the pedals because of the power steering. They should be more specific. Gives the idea its _"all"_ the wiring

I think they are not really used to doing this sort of things and just want to make sure if the car as some kind of issue that they reported anything that might seem weird to them. After all its their license. Fair enough.

Most funny was some MOT stations that would charge me for a retest if i took the car somewhere else (read me doing the Job). I kindly asked them: Can you fix *my* particular car? Do you have an idea of how it works? They obviously don't, its *my* setup. So how can they charge me for going somewhere else if they cant do the job?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Just charging my batteries after the 10 mile drive. I didn't fully charge one of them last time, but no issues thankfully.

First pack not yet charged, all cells between 3.24 and 3.25 so not only they top balance very well they also bottom balance. The Charger is a bit slow. Did the tests at 144-153V but the batteries charging voltage is flat on the 160V Area (158 to 160) so the average charging current was 0,80 - 1 Amp.

I also checked the pack on charge and all cells between 3.32 and 3.33. 

I increased the charger output to 1.5Amps (250Watt), if there are no issues in a few hours I might go to 2 Amps. The unit is rated at 325Watt and was taken to 410 Watts during tests.

Other than the slow charge no issues to report. Another advantage is that after a few hours it warms the room 1 or 2C.

Next step is to get some more units, make a PCB and get a nice enclosure.



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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi, I just stumble on this old thread, starting in page 2 is an interesting discussion about VFD's, I didn't read to much of it, but I think it may be helpful for you (or not  ).

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/home-grown-mini-ev-38988p2.html


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> Hi, I just stumble on this old thread, starting in page 2 is an interesting discussion about VFD's, I didn't read to much of it, but I think it may be helpful for you (or not  ).
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/home-grown-mini-ev-38988p2.html


Some good information in there, yes 

PS: How did you knew I was messing around with the VFD? lol 
Just getting the proper unit built. I am using the body/heat-sink of the first unit, on page one of this topic. 
I used the bicycle today and I just realized it is actually faster than the Polo!


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Some good information in there, yes
> 
> PS: How did you knew I was messing around with the VFD? lol
> Just getting the proper unit built. I am using the body/heat-sink of the first unit, on page one of this topic.


I have some paranormal capabilities . Or maybe I just pay attention, I am not sure which one. LOL


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Finished new unit. Works lovely. I had to upgrade the power supply to drive the IGBT's. Car can start in any gear (1,2,3,4 and 5).

I made a new keypad for the unit, was working okay, but while installing on the car it just stopped working. It may have touched some other wire. Bad luck. Now I am not ale to change settings. The deceleration time is set to 10 seconds. If I want to stop the car first I have to apply the brakes against the motor for up to 15 seconds. There is no way to stop instantly as far as I know. Stupid.

I managed to discharge most of the pack in less that 5 miles.

So... Torque control now works lovely, no more issues with motor mounts. Motor is powerfull enought, but aceleration is too slow.

I burned the charger. The power was increased to 1.5Amps. I changed the pack and with only 155V the current went up to 1.7Amps. I was busy doing something else and didnt notice the temperature. These power supplies are very tight inside and require forced air circulation.
So... I thought to myself there must be a better way to charge them...

I've come up with this. The capacitor is quite efficient at handling the power. Only issue is power factor is low, so I am limited to about 1-1.5Kw maximun. Currently I am using 400Watts and drwaing 4Amps from the grid. The socket is warm.

For £18... Impossible to beat!

I need to come up with a circuit to disable charging at 170V. Or just charge the in series. My Mains supply is 245V, sometimes peaks at 255.

Car is fully licenced and taxed. I went into a local DVLA office and they've done it all in about 20 minutes.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

How could I forget... The photos

I had to cut the original IGBT. Not much copper on the unit, so didnt want to risk:


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Keypad


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)




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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very good CTS. Some pictures won't show though.

When will you have performance capability for the controller please? I'm curious and interested in trying to plagerise your dieas and build a controller myself, though I have relatively 0 experience or knowledge/understanding so will need to look to copy someone else's brilliance to do so! I hope this is ok.

Otherwise just have to try save up for a less desireable finished product (can't beat building it yourself, this is DIY electric car!)


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks,

They all show up on my computer, except for one or two I removed from the server before (low quality). Is that what you mean?

Well, performance wise I dont have a big budget for the project so it will just be for cummuting. I doubt I will ever go over 30HP to be fair. I am thinking in setting up an hybrid at some point on time, maybe in two years time for a project I need to finish. I may be able to be sponsored at the time using this one as a base idea.

As with the controller, buying a VFD is like the lottery you'll never know what you'll get untill you have it. My first unit, the Fuji uses a Smart IGBT that is not documented. I can not get a pinout/Datasheet for it. I may however get a bigger one (they are available with same pinout) but since the current is measured by the IGBT as well its a bit of trial and error. You can look for one that someone else used but usually if you want to get a cheap one you have to risk.

This one I have now is an AC Tech. Its quite a good unit. They are expensive. The IGBTs are documented and you can get them from mitsubish or fuji with full datasheet available. For a bigger IGBT you have to either reduce the swtching frequency or if a lot bigger upgrade the power supply. Pinout and control circuit are the same. There are 4 isolated 15V power supplies. 

There are other units that use standard IGBTs that are cheaper to get. In this case you can either reduce the frequency and get bigger IGBTs or upgrade the IGBT driver and power supply (this is not simple). 

You will also have to upgrade the current sensors. The drive will still display the original current, although the output will be higher.

There are other things you need to take care of like proper protection if you have a 600V power supply. I rewired my motor for 320 but for some reason the drives go into overload. Maybe some winding is in the wrong direction. Ill have to take care of this issue later.

If you are using DC get a standard PWM controller from a Drill or similar and a 300Amps+ IGBT smart module, build a small circuit with optocouplers and there you go. You only need a +/- (dual) 15V Power supply.

I like the idea of DIY too. I like to source my parts for cheap. If something goes wrong its not like its the end of the world. And you get to learn quite a lot. My project most of the cost (50%) was batteries and the two first VFD. I would not buy fuji/Jaguar (they are the same) again. You can get cheaper and better. Those 2 VFD were about 25% of my budget, the second most expensive item and I got better served with the AC tech, plus its super simple to understand as all the components are documented. Its also a good idea to source them from the USA. You end up having more to choose and cheaper price.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Well, my charger is on boost mode. I am quite happy. Charging a battery 75% empty in only 3 hours is great!

I'll adopt this system. The major drawback is the low PFC, but I can safely go to over 1.5KW on each socket (Up to 3KW if using sockets on different circuits of the house or hardwiring).

Another advantage is the lack of electronics and things to go wrong. I will put a 100uF capacitor inside the battery housing (Was designed to have a small charger inside) and Ill only have to carry an aditional 0.3KG per battery. Battery, precharge, contactor, charger BMS and instrumentation all inside one box, without the need for FANs!





























This is the first battery finishing the charge. 
I stop charge at 165-170. No need to go higher for a few mA more. Anything over 163 and the voltage goes up quicly. Charging voltage is between 158 and 162. 

0.1 to 0.2V per battery, once they are over 3.4 they wont take more charge.

The circuit is simple enought, however some advisories for those who want to try:

The circuit will NOT stop charge once the battery is charged. It is extremelly dangerous and may pose a risk of fire. If you want to use it follow this:

A circuit to switch of the mains once the battery voltage is over 170 (3.6 per cell) You may go higher depending on your cells. My manufacturer states a maximun of 3.65V.

I have a 5Watt 3.9V zenner in parallel with each battery in case of a failure of cell/BMS. It also helps balance if one cell goes high before the others

On the battery side AFTER A DIODE a 170 or 180V zenner. If anything else fails this zenner will short burning the input fuse. The diode avoids the high power from the battery to go into the zenner if it fails closed or any other related short circuit fault. The zenner should be tied to a termal fuse. So it will either dissipate power as heat untill the thermal fuse opens or it will short causing the capacitive circuit to pump current until the fuse burns. This a safety switch. the cut out should happen before the zenner even has time to warm up. The zenner should be at least 10W.

This circuit is good for batteries of 144V and over ONLY. The higher the battery the higher the PFC will be and more power you can take out of it, however the higher the voltage the bigger the capacitors will have to be.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Maybe better than a zener directly across the cell would be a small 500 mW 3V zener from collector to base of a big BJT like a 2N3055 or D44H11 which has higher gain). It will clamp the voltage at 3.6-3.7V and can handle at least 10 amps. You could also add thermal switches on the transistors wired in series so if any one starts heating up it will shut down the charger. Parts are cheap:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS/C7KvLOwmmQCdVKRF%2bFKTMA= ($0.10)

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMvplms98TlKYyI%2bsdYAyN1Nf5kctY2qjEQ= ($0.55)

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1/Wi8oN7VHZ91OksWHc%2b00thmM= ($0.67)

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMusbZ2pNxAMx/729FK%2btZH/74UYSpagaQc= ($4.80)

The thermal switch is by far the most costly item. You can get non-resettable thermal cutoffs for about $0.72:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMtmOrLGZtjyUMNtLnogjt3g4L/94VOALaI=
or
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TCF-194/THERMAL-CUT-OFF-194C/1.html

But you can get resettable types for less than $1:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/THSW-75/THERMAL-CIRCUIT-PROTECTOR-75-C/1.html

Another idea is to put an optoisolator across each transistor, so they are turned on as long as the transistor is turned off. Wire the outputs in series to the charger (or maybe a relay to handle the voltage and current). You can get a phototriac that can handle 600V and 100mA AC to drive a relay, for about $0.32 each:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMteimceiIVCB6TrUIPkZYPTkmvFux0ZDBU=

Poor man's BMS!


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Very good CTS. Some pictures won't show though.
> 
> When will you have performance capability for the controller please? I'm curious and interested in trying to plagerise your dieas and build a controller myself, though I have relatively 0 experience or knowledge/understanding so will need to look to copy someone else's brilliance to do so! I hope this is ok.
> 
> Otherwise just have to try save up for a less desireable finished product (can't beat building it yourself, this is DIY electric car!)


I'm currently building a open revolt controller myself, may be able to help you find parts and info.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> Maybe better than a zener directly across the cell would be a small 500 mW 3V zener from collector to base of a big BJT like a 2N3055 or D44H11 which has higher gain). It will clamp the voltage at 3.6-3.7V and can handle at least 10 amps. You could also add thermal switches on the transistors wired in series so if any one starts heating up it will shut down the charger. Parts are cheap:
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS/C7KvLOwmmQCdVKRF%2bFKTMA= ($0.10)
> 
> ...


I was going to use something like that, the problem was space as I have 48 cells in each case. I might do something similar to balance them from time to time outside the box The optocouplers I was going to use them for LVC. They would send a signal if the cell was > 2V, if not the main relay would cut off.
The resettable fuse is something I might place in the individual zenners to stop charge if one gets hot. They can only stand about 1Amp, I am charging a bit higher. For 100 I can get a good discount 

Here is the BMS



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Not enough time to finish it. This was an improvement from a member of another forum. I redesigned the PCB and changed a few things on the schematic.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

My wife is taking revenge on me. I have to take her to work and get her back and today she wants to go shopping lol.

So I have to carry these batteries to the 2nd floor 



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But also these ones


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I have some figures for the range now.

The accessory battery is good for about 15 to 25 miles depending if I use the headlights or not. The power steering does not seem to draw much at all. Most goes to the brake vacuum pump. Its a 70Amps Lead and I usually charge after 20 miles with 24 to 32Amps. I will upgrade to the DC-DC converter soon as the draw is small enough to use the main pack.

The vacuum pump is being operated with a resistor. I have to redesign my circuit. It appears that it draw excessive current at low speeds/high vacuum so I'll modify the circuit to operate as on/off as someone else suggested.

I also have a smaller one on the boot for the contactors and IGBT power supply. 

The bike battery is being used in series with the main pack.

Now in terms of range:

Yesterday I've done 5 miles, no traffic.

Battery voltages:

Pack 1 - 159.1
Pack 2 - 159.1
Headway Pack - 39.5

Total power: 1.2KW

Today I've done 7 miles with start/stop traffic. 

Pack 1 - 158.8
Pack 2 - 158.8
Headway Pack - 39.4

Total Power: 2KW

240 to 290w/m from the socket.

It would help if I didn't had to apply the brakes against the motor to stop the car... Many times I stop on the yellow and the motor is not stopped when the green comes back.

So for the time being I would say 12 miles per charge, instead of the original 15 I predicted.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

LOL, I wanted to ask for a video of you taking the batteries upstairs  .


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> LOL, I wanted to ask for a video of you taking the batteries upstairs  .


 
Well the MOT guys took the heavy steering from the car so now I have to exercise somewhere else 

First battery,
Second battery,
Bike Battery,
Bike,
My daughter,
The shopping...

Glad my wife doesnt demand me to carry her (yet!)

And when I am bored I come and get the 12V battery lol.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Why not throw an extension cord out of the window and charge the 12V battery in the car ?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Put daughter on bike. Attach batteries and shopping to bike. Attach bike to winch cable out 2nd floor window. Retract winch cable. Done!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> Why not throw an extension cord out of the window and charge the 12V battery in the car ?


For one I am quite happy to take the batteries home: Charging at a decent temperature, ready for regeneration when I take the car, full monitoring, etc. 

Another reason is that I dont live in one of the best areas of London. Most people in the area live on social care and others. Last week my walet was stolen on the local train station and now I cant take any money from my bank account. No one returned. All my documents were there. There was no money. Reported to the police they said no prof had to be declared as lost. If someone is using my ID card or others they just "found it". whatever...

If they ever break into the car there is not much that they can take. I cant afford that.

Another reason I park on the street, the car is not always in front of my flat. Sometimes is on the other side of the street, in front of the next flat, etc...

I dont want to get into troube with neighbours. I had a similar issue before. I used to take some VRLA batteries to power an inverter a few years ago because I worked as a mobile mechanic. I had troble trowing cables out of the window. They claimed it was dangerous because it was also in front of their windows... You know... people...

I also dont want cables on the sidewalk. If someone falls on the cable because their were playing attention to their mobile they can likely sue me for having the cable there.




Ziggythewiz said:


> Put daughter on bike. Attach batteries and shopping to bike. Attach bike to winch cable out 2nd floor window. Retract winch cable. Done!


The bike only seats one, what am I going to do to wife 

Just did another 9 mile trip on the car, this time using 3rd gear only. 
2 adults, my daughter and some shopping.

I inflated the tyres this morning (1bar for one, 1.5 to the remaining 3).
Front ones now with 2.75 and rear 2.5

About 40 miles since conversion


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## polobear (Nov 13, 2012)

What is your wh/mile from the batteries?290 from the wall is pretty good!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

polobear said:


> What is your wh/mile from the batteries?290 from the wall is pretty good!


The Charger is 98% efficient and the batteries probably loose about 5%, so I would say 270Wh/mile.

I should be able to get 250W/m with the DC DC converter pluged in. I am loosing a bit on the motor as I am not using encoder, so I need to listen to the motor sound and adjust the trottle manually. Not having gears is another issue. 

However, those tests were made using 2 gear with 1.5bars in each tyre. I am now using 3 gear with 2.5 per tyre, so I should be able to see an improvement.

I can now get to a maximun speed of 35mph, limited by the 3rd gear.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Did you got, yet, at the point of "I badly need more batteries" and "the charger is to slow" ? 

Just kidding, enjoy your ride.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

TEV said:


> Did you got, yet, at the point of "I badly need more batteries" and "the charger is to slow" ?
> 
> Just kidding, enjoy your ride.


Sadly I have other problems now. The control board just died. Now once I power the unit it just displays control unit fault. It just happened when I was installing the batteries the other night.

I have another board on order from the USA (The keypad died before this), but it will be at least another week until I have it. The guy wasn't very helpful either declaring the full value for insurance. $25, a fortune! I wonder if the $70 I paid for postage are also covered.

The unit uses a very odd power supply with Zenner diodes and resistors from the main voltage. I may have to replace all this with a proper isolated power supply like I did for one of the IGBT supplies. In fact once the time is right I may design my own controller based on a e-bike brushless IC and a micro to read the motor position and calculate the amount of slip required for the induction motor.

Cant do any work on the car due to the low temperatures outside. I still have a few things to fix like the 12V DC-DC, some more control wiring, etc.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> Sadly I have other problems now. The control board just died. Now once I power the unit it just displays control unit fault. It just happened when I was installing the batteries the other night.
> 
> I have another board on order from the USA (The keypad died before this), but it will be at least another week until I have it. The guy wasn't very helpful either declaring the full value for insurance. $25, a fortune! I wonder if the $70 I paid for postage are also covered.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. I hope to get it runing again very soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I have to agree on that one 

Well... too cold to work outside and no controller that leads us to the BMS

So... two days to select a bunch of components of Farnell (If someone knows a easier one, let me know please!)

Now Its time to bake some boards.

I have a lot of experience soldering components, SMD included, however this was my first time with an oven. The result was not the best one too see so I will post what happened here along with some tips for someone that may want to try the same.





























I tried to bake the components using SMD paste. The IC pins are so close together that even the SMD paste shorted a few. Its also harder to know were to position the component, since the paste actually covers the board tracks. Fine on bigger ones, not on this size.
I put the board on the oven. The board gt hot too quickly. I was looking to the solder melting when the board started to create some vapors. I opened the oven door just to see it catch fire. What a mess.

I managed to salvage the components and clean them. Not easy as one of them was covered in some black stuff from the burned board. Tried the procedure again. This time the board wasn't damaged, however the solder didn't melt properly when the board was starting to make some vapors again. Maybe the quality of the PCB's, who knows.


End result I ended up using my regular soldering iron and took about one hour to finish the job. Some of the IC legs were bent from removal/cleaning so some of them were a bit poor, but I am very happy with the result and thats how I am going to make my next boards. This one was just a trial. I may finish it, but unsure if the IC's got damaged from the soldering so I will leave this one as a backup.












The first and fourth ICs are very good, the second and third had some bent pins that gave me some trouble.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I have opened a new topic for an efficient heatpump climate system here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=344994#post344994

Would apreciate some colaboration for those with experience on the field.

I am also looking for some R134/R12/R22 compressors 3/4 to 1 1/2HP.


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## GW0DIV (Jan 3, 2011)

cts_casemod said:


> I have to agree on that one
> 
> Well... too cold to work outside and no controller that leads us to the BMS
> 
> ...


Isn't RS still at Reigate??

Rhys
GW0DIV


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

GW0DIV said:


> Isn't RS still at Reigate??
> 
> Rhys
> GW0DIV


No idea. 

I am back to charging batteries twice a day. Car is on the road. Decent acceleration 35MPH max speed with 3rd gear, not bothered to get the gear linkage yet. No gears to change, one pedal to work. Simplex!

Next priority is to make a decent mount for the electric motor.
With all the power available now, within two minutes of having the controller set up I just blown a 80Amps fuse from the battery bank and snapped one of the mounts from the gearbox at the same time. Over 30KW going into the batteries due to regeneration. For now Is set to coast if the pedal is not pressed and it will regenerate only when reducing speed.

The other priority is to make a nice enclosure for the VFD, upgrade the IGBT section to 200Amps @ 400V and get some coper or alluminium bars to connect the capacitor bank, a box for the precharge equipment and a auxiliar bleeder resistor.

Along with this I need to make sure the brake light turns on when regenerating. At this point is quite dangerous because the car stops quite fast. I only use the brake pedal to keep the car from moving after a stop. Thats how efficient regen is at the moment.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more updates on the Polo,

During the last week I have done a number of changes to make the car drive-able

Test mounts were removed and replaced with permanent motor mounts
Replaced Gearbox mount with the Diesel version of the Polo gearbox
Automated contactor circuit 
Automated circuit for precharge contactor
Start position on the key engages automated start up
Tweeked motor settings to allow very low RPM for easy to park
Changed Regeneration settings for a quick but smooth stop
Installed and wired 12V 50Amps DC-DC Converter
Removed auxiliary battery from engine bay and replaced with a 20Amps Lithium, located on a boot compartment
Installed reverse switch
Performed battery capacity and charger efficiency test

To do:

Pre charge contactor sometimes disengaging during regeneration
Install Gear Linkage from mk4 golf or older 8V Passat (02A gearbox)
Top up gearbox oil (ordered)
Tidy up wiring
Install modified circuit for vacuum pump
Make sure brake light comes on during regeneration
Upgrade and automate Charging circuit for better PFC/Faster charging speeds
Upgrade IGBT pack for delta connection with motor for higher output power
Instal upgraded Isolated power supplies for inverter drive (VFD)
Create circuit to automate motor torque, V/Hz and regeneration mode in closed loop
Install Gages 
Install Amp/power meter
Finish and install BMS on the battery packs

I am happy to say that the car is a success so far, completely driveable. I have used 30KW on the main pack alone and the car has done roughly 100 miles in electric mode.

main pack efficiency:
Discharge 3070W, 3200 Watts for a full charge, including charger losses.

The charger is 97% Efficient with 13W loss (405Watts Input, 392W Output). The charge is done in constant current at 1.23Amps per battery. Power is cut when the pack voltage reaches 164-165V (3.45V per cell). There is no constant voltage charge, so the batteries are charged to 95% (
They are rated 10500mAh)
12V accessory battery charged to 3.40VPC, DC-DC efficiency at full load: 81%.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Official wh per mile figures from the wall including main pack and 12V installation are 350Wh per mile loaded (two adults, one children and at least one full shopping trolley and 300Wh per mile with only me and my daughter.

This takes into account that I drive at evening/night with low to moderate traffic, headlights on, blower on for part of the way, electric power steering, ABS pump, electric Vacuum pump, contactors and some other minor loads like radio.
The 12V load is in average 35Wh per mile (Feeding the bulbs with 13.6V makes quite a difference from using a battery at 12V)

For those in other countries average is 180 to 210wh per km and it is costing me 1/4 of what i would pay for Diesel (Assuming 6l/100km/60miles)

There is no heating.

Here are some pictures of the changes done:

Power supply charging the headways









Pre-charge contactor









Batteries on a compartment in the boot 









DC-DC in the same compartment









New solid motor mount (VW branding, just for the MOT guys )









Gearbox side mount from a Diesel Polo









Lower stabilizer mount modified

















Drivetrain


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Does the donut box serve a critical function?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Does the donut box serve a critical function?


Presumably for the builder. Mine runs (only) on Powerbars and coffee at the moment


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Does the donut box serve a critical function?


Thats a geographical tag for the Beautifull streets of Croydon


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

*Another bms failure*

Ok... so I was driving to a place to top up the gear box oil and I feel the car quite heavy.

After a stop I lost motor power. Couple of seconds later the DC-DC converter goes off as well.

Went into the boot to check the equipment, no power. My small 36V pack was hotter than usual. Bi-passed to use only the two 154V batteries and I the system powered up and drove normally.

After getting home one cell in the pack open and the remaining were withing 0.80 and 1.54V.

So much for the BMS to actually do its job properly and the remaining batteries may be damaged now. I believe they were reverse charged.
Just a word of warning.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

After the incident last week I lost my bike battery and the cells are now sitting for testing to see if they lost capacity or self discharge.

So now I have the main pack with the two 154V batteries working strong as usual.
Withou the smaller battery I lost about 12% capacity in the pack I thought it would be a good idea to finish moding the VFD to acept the motor in the new 208V Delta mode for which I converted the motor a few months back.


The motor was being use in star at 415V and was using a stupid ammount of current at low revs. Also I had no voltage to keep the current constant over 1000RPM so my aceleratio over this speed was mainly due to field weakening on the AC Motor with a proportional torque reduction


I have now connected the motor in delta at 208VAC Nominal and I'm now using the second gear, since I now have enought voltage to go up to 2000RPM before using field weakening. I can report this:

Better acceleration
Current (Amperes) use is now more balanced,
I can do hills at no less than 25MPH
As Ziggythewiz refered 20% to 30% less consumption.


The numbers I have now, driving at night are about 260WH/m from the wall all inclusive of DC-DC and accessories.

I re-organised the space on the VFD enclosure to make it safer and will add plugs to att the wiring on it. System is fully automatic now and DC-DC converter starts with the pre-charge after some tweeking.

A new vfd (similar) will be purchased to make the final prototype as I found it is too time consuming and many times costly to be removing the unit on the car.

The new setup will be hermetically sealed and will compose motor controller and high power charger. 

I will design an improved version of my capacitive charger with >3KW, this time using high frequency gear for reduction in size and to take a power factor corrected DC input. In the meantime I will continue to use the simple AC version for my battery packs. 
For those wondering why I simply do not use PWM the anwser is PWM is not isolated and there is a risk of the mains voltage going into the battery or vice-versa in case of a switch failure. A capacitive charger provides a decent isolation and protection in case of a failure.
It will also be water cooled to be installed in the engine compartment.

This is a long term project, not something to be ready next month or even next year.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some new updates,

I got a chinese power meter for $13 postage included.

It reads up to 20Amps @ 90VDC. I thought... for $13 I might give it a try.

Measures:
Insantaneous Watt
Instantaneous Amps
Used Amps (Does not save the reading after powerr off)
Volts

So the unit arrived today and I have been doing some crazy stuff with it.

After some modifications I got it to read up to 100Amps @ 200V.



















Now I need to make a bezel for the panel and a few other switches on the batery box.
The wole monitoring circuit with the instruments uses 12mA. The charger restarts for about 30 seconds on low setting every three hours.

Also i got the gear linkages done on the car, but they are not very good so I am waiting for a replacement, but I can change gears. Might come usefull when starting on large hills where I need to start using 1st gear. No clutch yet.










The tower is actually the same










Looks like crap, not happy!


















And its too short.


















And it doesnt fit very well in the front. Might have to get a different bracket


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some official fuel consumpions:

*8.5 miles, no traffic, night*

DC Energy used: 6.84Ah @ 307V = 2.1KWh
Energy used to recharge: 1.9KWh
Heater use: 5 minutes to defrost @ 700W
Wh/m from batteries: 247
Wh/m from socket: 225
Gain from Regeneration: 10% Assuming 100% charge efficiency

*7.0 miles, low traffic, day*

DC Energy used: 5.66Ah @ 307V = 1.74KWh
Energy used to recharge: 1.5KWh
Wh/m from batteries: 248
Wh/m from socket: 214
Gain due to regeneration: 15% Assuming 100% charger efficiency

So I used slightly less energy overal during the day as no lights and heating were used, however a bigger percentage was used in start and stop conditions from which part was recovered by regeneration.

My meter does not take into account energy from regeneration, hence the lower values to charge that the energy consumed, since the battery is recharged each time I brake. Overally I would say 15 to 20% gain, assuming battery charging losses and charger efficiency, which is in fact higher than the 10% I originally thought.

I am quite happy with the results. I should see further improvements upon increasing the size of the battery pack as the sag will be reduced (200Wh per full charge) and also using encoder torque control to keep slip at optimun rates
This is driving inside city with constant stops from traffic lights and intersections.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

major said:


> KW is not Energy.


We make a good team, I am too lazy and you always get me! lol


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I got my meter working. 

The micro was fine, problem with the LCD.



















Would be nice if i could integrate this into the dash, where the clock is


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I am working in the new controller a bit sooner than expected due to a few issues.

I stop using the VFD and the hardware is standalone now. It can fully use the throttle including the inhibit switch at "idle" to disable the unit so I wont crash the car against a wall again while messing around with the controller in the boot like a few months back!

Still in V/Hz. I will build an add on module to work in closed loop later.

The new hardware:

1200V @ 600Amps IGBT, continuous rating of about 160HP @ 415VAC and 80HP at 208VAC, three times the peak power of my motor and batteries. Can work with most commercial Ac motors available, up to 400Amps peak.

Concept Scale 2 IGBT drivers, VCE saturation protection, alarm output to host in case of malfunction, pretty much like any Intelligent power module

I am currently finishing the interface from the IGBTs to the main board and waiting for the machined parts for the heatsink and DC BUS to arrive. No more messing around with cables, proper connectors for the outside connection, throttle uses a USB plug.

IGBTs are connected using flat ribbon cables, so all can be easily disconnected. The cables are shielded so the power module can be separated from the controller unit as required. 

Everything is modular so that other functions can be quickly replaced if necessary in case of a failure or to test new mods

The IGBTs can either be water or air cooled, the heat sink is prepared to take both systems as I plan to make the controller a physical part of the car, so it will be enclosed and not normally accessible, thus requiring external cooling

Capacitor bank will now be 12.000uF. I wanted to go with metal film but I didn't had any at hand to make the cad files and they are not always standard sizes.

Provision for center tapped +/- 320V (640) battery pack or voltage doubler input.

More updates in a few weeks.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

First Run of the new inverter.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Running good!

Some more pics


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Still waiting for the missing IGBT/Driver and it seems that is going to take some time to get here. People prefer to post using some crap to save £10 without advising the buyer... Now I'm stuck! 

I have run a few motors on the inverter. Tried a car Alternator as well, all good. These are some waveforms from the inverter output using a car alternator.

I also got a Brushless AC Compressr along with the driver card and a 60Watt 300V DC FAN that should make my life easier.

The sine is distorted because I am not using voltage feedback yet.

Some photos of the waveforms. 
I never 'scoped' a VFD drive before. There are no excessive voltage peaks, however I am a bit worried about the 'ringing'.

Feel free to comment.


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

You're scoping the output of two phase legs or the bus and one IGBT? 

Just a guess, it looks like during turn on, there is recovery delay from one of the diodes, causing excessive turn on current and therefore voltage oscillation. 

Looks really good though. Can't wait to see it finished


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

subcooledheatpump said:


> You're scoping the output of two phase legs or the bus and one IGBT?
> 
> Just a guess, it looks like during turn on, there is recovery delay from one of the diodes, causing excessive turn on current and therefore voltage oscillation.
> 
> Looks really good though. Can't wait to see it finished


 
I would like to test this thing under load, but where do I find a 200Amps Inductive Load!? Nearly Impossible !

The Car alternator uses between 3 and 10Amps RMS, the 230VAC motors I used drawed a maximum of 10Amps (nominal about 7). 

The waveforms were from the output of the H bridge (the 2 phase legs)

Here are some photos of the DC Link.
The riple is quite noticeable as I am only using one phase. 



















847mV Ripple at the IGBT Terminals. I am using 10Ah Cells 50% SOC




















I have about 450mV Ripple at 10Amps with a few inductive peaks going up to 600mV. I am using some older capacitors as snubbers, once I have the proper ones the peaks should go away

PS: This is using a 12.8V Nominal Battery. With the 307V Pack the last inverter had a maximun ripple of about 40V.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Just keep in mind that scopes can pick up radiated noise and stray magnetic fields. Try clipping the probe tip to the same place you are measuring and you may still see some peaks. You may need to use differential mode to get a clean signal. It looks pretty good to me.

You can make a 200A inductive load from an old microwave transformer with a few turns through it. You can remove the HV winding for safety. Other ideas are a welding transformer or an old motor stator with some wires wrapped through it. Or even some turns around some flat steel pieces or an iron pipe. Or maybe a starter motor. You can add a resistive load in series so you can test it at higher voltage.

Looks like you have some good test equipment.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> Just keep in mind that scopes can pick up radiated noise and stray magnetic fields. Try clipping the probe tip to the same place you are measuring and you may still see some peaks. You may need to use differential mode to get a clean signal. It looks pretty good to me.
> 
> You can make a 200A inductive load from an old microwave transformer with a few turns through it. You can remove the HV winding for safety. Other ideas are a welding transformer or an old motor stator with some wires wrapped through it. Or even some turns around some flat steel pieces or an iron pipe. Or maybe a starter motor. You can add a resistive load in series so you can test it at higher voltage.
> 
> Looks like you have some good test equipment.


Thanks,

An Induction heater would be great 

I Thought about using the Alternator straight from the 300V. I should have about 100Amps flowing from the motor to the IGBT due to the voltage difference (Low Voltage, High Amp) at a low duty cicle. The previous VFDs couldnt drive them because of the low impedance. 

Im just waiting for the last IGBT, I am quite limited using only two phases.

I am also using stainless steel to conduct from the DC-Link bus bar to the IGBTs, which has some (very small) magnetic properties. I am afraid this may cause some extra voltage peaks.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hello again,

I finished the design of my inverter and I will be selling the alluminium profiles as per photos above. This is basically the place where the IGBT sits, prepared to be water cooled with one additional part between and the DC LINK bars that interconnect the electrolytic capacitors. It fits capacitors with a maximum Diamater of 80mm and a distance between terminals of 32mm.

The profiles are prepared to take the infineon IGBTs and the more standard Fuji 2MBI200U4B that I can also sell, if required.

If interested send me a PM with an Offer. I am from the UK


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Car is that a pm for IGBTs or a whole controller? What performance are you expecting from your controller? It is very impressive how well you have done with the redesigns.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Car is that a pm for IGBTs or a whole controller? What performance are you expecting from your controller? It is very impressive how well you have done with the redesigns.


 
I am just selling the alluminium profiles as I redesigned the controller to make it more space efficient, secure and sealed (Film capacitors, DC-Link redesign, etc.) 
They might be usefull for those modifying a VFD to upgrade the capacitors/power stage or for a new design. I just dont have use for them, so if someone needs them I am happy to sell them for a fair offer.

I may also sell the 200A 1200V IGBTs as I dont expect to use them in a while, but those I only sell on hand as they can easily be damaged and its not worth the trouble.

My Controller will still be a prototype for a while to come, at the moment, yes, the hardware its quite powerfull, but the control part is still being developed, more updates by the end of the summer as I am quite busy with exams now.

The idea is to have the power hardware ready and installed on the vehicle (Will eventually take an onboard generator and soon the DC-Link Voltage is going to be increased to 750VDC). The whole electrical part will be redesigned and a second controller will be added to control the generator in a similar way to an hybrid Diesel/Electric train. So the control part will be inside the car controllng all these devices. At the moment I just dont have the time to think about any of it 

PS: Yes I drove the car 5 miles with the new controller last week and without any heatsink other than what is pictured. No issues. The batteries were cooler than usual after a trip, maybe because of the added capacitance


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Things are going well for the Polo.
I have been quite busy latelly so nothing really new for over two months.

Some minor mods on the AC inverter, fully automatic precharge circuit, added support for emergency kill butons, independent control of battery contctors.

Closed loop torque control finished, thereby increasing vehicle safety, performance and confort, which will have some final adjustments done tomorrow. Now the torque is requested based on motor rpm and driver input. I have full range of regeneration and acceleration.

A new charging point was installed this week where the car sits overnight, so I'll go forward with an additional 3KW battery to make part of the vehicle in adition to the removable 3KW packs currently in use for a total range of 20 miles @ 80%DOD.

Also planed, is the replacement of the current charger with one capable of taking a DC Supply input to take advantage of fast DC Chargers.

Updates soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I finally solved all the bugs on the hardware, I had quite a few issues with emf induced noise and had to relocate the encoder board to the front of the vehicle.

Some other minor power supply and isolation issues all sorted now.

The Polo is now working in closed loop with variable regeneration.

Hardware:

3 Phase encoder board with 6 PWM outputs for 3 phase profile creation currently working at 5KHz. Its part of the inverter setup and controls the IBGT modules with the signal received from the encoder PCB. 

Signal is also modulated based on available battery voltage and current draw.


Encoder board:

This board, currently located on the front of the vehicle, reads gearbox speed sensor and throttle input and generates a corresponding profile for the inverter. Currently closed loop torque control on 2nd and 3rd gears with regeneration on 2nd only. Maximum speed on 3rd is 50MPH.

Next step is to increase the encoder resolution and install it on the motor itself, so that it is valid on all gears. This will require the motor to be removed. I will likely remove the clutch at the same time.

As a safety the speed is limited to 10mph when the encoder signal is lost.

Here are some pictures the work done two weeks ago:

Inverter old busbar










Inverter new busbar










Inverter powered with contactor installed










Driving the car tacho with the encoder board


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking very good CTS. Waiting for performance feedback now. What power capabilities will this controller have? How easily could it run a PMAC motor?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking very good CTS. Waiting for performance feedback now. What power capabilities will this controller have? How easily could it run a PMAC motor?


Keeps up very good with the traffic. I took it to 50MPH, since thats the maximun I could go where I live. Takes about 10 seconds to reach 40MPH since I am limited by the available battery voltage. I'll plan to increase to 614V as per original design later this year.

At some point Ill also add control algorithm to disable the motor when the requested torque is less than 15% and a dynamic voltage control both intended to reduce iron losses and slip.

Other than the IGBT/Gate Drivers all the rest would have to be different for a PMAC/DC. This one is specifically tailored for ACIM, so both PCBs would be useless. You could try something with a ST7MC, it is far easier to implement that the induction control.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The generator setup is coming.

I got a Boliy 3600.

This generator has all the desirable features I might need for my project:


Since I plan to have the most efficient power transfer from every liter of petrol I need to directly control the alternator to match the current demand of my charging system. 

This generator can change the operating speed to match the load. There is a stepper on the throttle to electronically control the air fuel mixture based on load, so half my work is done. I only need to create my own control board to suit the lithium CC-CV Charge.

Brushless PM 3 Phase alternator:
Lightweight 3 phase allows operation as a motor to dynamically start the generator using the automated onboard signals

Weight: 
About 30KG for a 3KW output. Not bad, considering I can charge at 13Miles per hour with neglectable weight increase

Ill also be using the built in Sine wave inverter for mobile power. 230V 3KW. I use mobile power very often and although the batteries can supply most loads fine with DC power (lights, universal motors, etc) most power tools need an AC supply.

I expect the fuel consumption to be about 8-10 liters of fuel per every 60 miles, or roughly 1l for every 2kW. 
This is very close to what my previous 1.4l Polo would use for city driving (8L petrol or 10-11l LPG for every 60 Miles).


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Here are the photos of the generator.

I took it off the enclosure to make it easier to service. 
In the meantime I got the faulty inverter board repaired. The built in bridge rectifier was blown, so I added an external one and tried to power a few things up to 2000Watt without an issue.

Output of the alternator reads about 300VAC depending on engine speed, so all good.

Seems to fit okay in the car (It will sit a bit lower once I change the throttle location)










Inverter board being bench tested










Output from the alternator (High frequency AC)










Motor and alternator without he cover










On the car


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The other day I was looking for my charge control schematic and I realised that I havent posted it here.

Anyway I have found the original schematic.

This is how it works:

A relay is kept energized for the battery to charge. This reduces the risk of a faulty power supply or component to accidentally leave the charger on. It also means that the relay is powered all the time, altough this only draws a few mA. An opto may be used instead.

Hysteresys is provided by a 1 or 5Mohm resistor. 
1Mohm for lead does about 15V with a 144V pack
5Mohm for Lithium batteries gives about 5V histerisys for a 160V pack

This is the voltage at which the charger is re-connected after the initial turn of. If the batteries are good it should not turn back on.

The component values are valid for any pack ranging from 120 to 180V

The second part of the LM393 comparator triggers an alarm if the voltage exceeds a set value. This is usefull in case something fails or to know when to stop or reduce regeneration while driving.

The final versin will come with a low battery warning and an output to a resistor bank to balance multiple packs (in case one ends charge first). 

Ill be using it with my brand new charger to be disclosured in a few months (Currently on tests).

If someone needs PCB's please let me know, i might order a few.

ILL UPLOAD THE PHOTO LATER. I give up after half an hour trying to upload. Will have to wait for my internet to be on a better mood.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Here we have the schematic


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## rrumpe (Feb 20, 2013)

Very good work mate
Are you going to share the inverter electric scheme? 
What is the cost of the elements used for this inverter?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There seem to be some mistakes in the schematic.

1. The 10k resistor in the string from Vbat to the top comparator should go to GND, and the junction of it and the 50k pot should go to the non-inverting input.

2. Similarly, the 10k for the bottom comparator should go to GND.

3. The Vref zener seems to be shown reversed. The anode should go to GND.

4. The optocouplers do not appear to be necessary, as they share common GND and VCC. And the input LED connections are reversed. The anode should go to VCC through the 1k resistor.


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi CTS, Ive been contacted by the producer of Fifth Gear, they want me to feature my electric VW Golf in one of there programs, and seem to be very interested, i did mention that I had a few other EV friends too, yourself and Mike RX8 that might also be interested, do let me know if you want to star on TV, just wanted to ask you first before i pass on your details.

Mk1man2000...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hiya,



rrumpe said:


> Very good work mate
> Are you going to share the inverter electric scheme?
> What is the cost of the elements used for this inverter?


Not for now. It is still very beta testing, but if you have the knewledge i can give you a description of what has been done and how.
The inverter is based on the MC3PHAC, but the main idea is to interface with any standard V/Hz device. What it does is creates a feedback to add to the V/Hz loop, making it closed loop.

The main cost (kinverter wise) is down to the IGBT and gate drivers. i didnt want to save money on these, so went way overkill to make sure these components were indestructable. If you are starting you can use any IPM IGBT with the needed amps & volts for your conversion. They are still expensive, but will save you on all the power design and a big mess. You want your work to be clean if you go th diy route. 

Remember, at these power levels most of your real testing will be done on the road and while things on bench often work nicely on the car the story is different. Ask me how I know...



PStechPaul said:


> There seem to be some mistakes in the schematic.
> 
> 1. The 10k resistor in the string from Vbat to the top comparator should go to GND, and the junction of it and the 50k pot should go to the non-inverting input.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your comments Paul,

You are right mistakes on the schematic on both comparators. The voltage divider is not referenced to GND. Likely to bethe 10Kohm resistor as you mention,

Zenner is in fact acting as a normal diode (reversed) (What was I drinking that night!? )

The optocouplers: Good point: The reason I used those was because I didnt had a transistor at hand, but i have lots of optos from power supplies so I used them. They can simply be replaced by 2 PNP transistors. And yes they are reversed.

Similary, altought you didnt mention it, the relay diode is reversed as well. My mind was acting backwards... 

Ill place a decent schematic one of these days when I assemble the PCB for the new batteries/charger




mk1man2000 said:


> Hi CTS, Ive been contacted by the producer of Fifth Gear, they want me to feature my electric VW Golf in one of there programs, and seem to be very interested, i did mention that I had a few other EV friends too, yourself and Mike RX8 that might also be interested, do let me know if you want to star on TV, just wanted to ask you first before i pass on your details.
> 
> Mk1man2000...


Hy mk1man, nice to hear back from you,

Have you finished your golf yet? I would love to see it,

Yes, I would be pleased with that offer, but the car will only be back on the road by late September.

I am currently doing some major changes to the car so it is currently stopped. The rear was cut to host the new battery enclosure and while this is done I decided to stop the car to make other mods that were due:

Motor will be removed to attach the encoder and a new adapter will be done to remove the clutch. I dont feel the need for it to be fair, so might as well save some weight and get some shorter acceleration times;

The AC Inverter will be hosted on its own enclosure together with a PFC charger I am developing rated at 3.0KW for the new 460V battery pack.

If you want to show up give me a ring. Ill start back on the car by the 7th of August


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## mk1man2000 (Oct 18, 2012)

cts_casemod said:


> Hiya,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantastic will defo catch up with you soon, and i have now passed on your details to Fifth Gear, so you should be hearing from the producer anytime soon so please do let me know what they said, many thanks.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I brought the big boy back home to make some major hardware changes

Industrial hardware was used once again. A pair of transducers were chosen: RED LION IFMA0065 and IFMR0036. 

The first one reads the encoder and outputs an analog signal to drive the inverter (Closed loop) while the second makes sure than if the encoder signal is lost the output is shut down for safety reasons. 


Here are some photos:
































7.19KHz speed signal from encoder. 

At 114PPR = 63Hz -> 3784RPM
Inverter output -> 3840RPM
SLIP -> 56RPM


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

VW Polo Conversion - Part II

I dismantled the Polo for a full re-conversion. Everything was removed, including pedal cluster, steering wheel, etc.

I hope to have it on the road by the end of next month.
In The meanwhile I will start a full topic for reconversion.

Some Specs:

Battery box was designed to replace the original spare wheel Tyre space and Power electronics, as the old system used too much space on the boot.

8.2KW Main Battery Pack operating at 410V (380 to 440V) 
12V @ 40Amp Auxiliary pack (Expandable to 80Amp)
Water cooled/heated Inverter with built in 3KW PFC Charger

I will show detailed steps on the new conversion and will provide cad files for anyone trying to follow/modify my design.

Ill organize the photos by categories once the conversion is finished

The motor was opened for inspection and bearings replaced with C3 type. No damage caused to insulation or connections when the voltage was changed to 208VAC. New Encoder will also be fitted along with electric 12V FANS.


--------------------------------------------------

I managed to get some official VW dimensions for the motor dials on the 020 gearbox and made myself a new adapter plate. At this point I will also took some steps to get the clutch to work.

New Throttle (Working on a fly by wire)

More stuff to come...

Here's the battery enclosure:































Fitted inside the boot adds 10cm height for the Inverter/Charger
*The wires are just loose, they wont be visible on the final conversion






















Water cooled Heatsink


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Very slick. You must have access to a waterjet cutter or similar. Man that would be handy. I have a little Chinese CNC mill that can do most of the stuff I need, but nothing big like that battery box, and nothing harder than aluminum. I'm looking forward to seeing it all come together... again ;-)


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> Very slick. You must have access to a waterjet cutter or similar. Man that would be handy. I have a little Chinese CNC mill that can do most of the stuff I need, but nothing big like that battery box, and nothing harder than aluminum. I'm looking forward to seeing it all come together... again ;-)



Its laser cut. I send the company the files and they post them to my door in about a week. Much cheaper than CNC.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

More Photos as I gather everything together:

Some major changes on this stage of conversion are actual instruments on the front of the car.

The Inverter will display motor load and RPM using a HD44780 display on the front of the vehicle. 

2 Battery monitors will also be installed: These will light the fuel gauge when the battery voltage is low and will act as fail safe to stop the charger in case the voltages go above 3.50V per cell. Charger is set to cut at 3.40VPC.

I am currently working on an encoder to send some data via serial link, so I wont need 300 wires




















The next pictures shows the batteries resting after being balanced to 3.5V. Two weeks later the voltage was 3.47V.

Also some tests with the coolant pump for the inverter










I returned to the VFD. Simply put it I currently have no time to finish my inverter - Layout needs some consideration due to induced noise. Software needs to be created.

Here is how a VDF is modified for those looking to do the same:

Basically with a lot of pacience the IGBT and additional components not required are removed. The original power supply section is isolated, since this is linked to the main pack.












The optocouper board is used to provide the signals. and it does not have any connection to the power board (Its simply being secured by the terminals). Power now is provided from another PCB. 





















All assembled in the power board:











Violet wire is the alarm output from the IGBT drivers. A logic high signal here immediately triggers an output stage fault and disables the inverter

Yellow Wires are each individual IGBT. On picture the Low side IGBTs.
This unit does not have a 7th brake IGBT, instead a signal is provided for an external brake resistor on the terminal board. The unit shuts down on over-voltage

The 4 pin Molex terminal on the power board, close to the main capacitor, is the output for the Hall sensor. The original 5(15)Amp Sensor was removed and a 50(150)Amp sensor will be installed on the inverter drive, measuring the DC-Link Current.

More to come soon


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

This project gets more impressive as it goes CTS! Looking good sir! 
What batteries are those if I may ask annoying questions please? Very interesting structure.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> This project gets more impressive as it goes CTS! Looking good sir!
> What batteries are those if I may ask annoying questions please? Very interesting structure.


Same batteries as I used before. Model number LA 1665148 (10Ah 3.2V)

http://en.hz-liao.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?&data_ID=894


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

cts,

nice project. I skimmed your thread and didn't see the outcome of your BMS design. Did I miss it or is your BMS still a work in progress?

If it is working I would be interested in some more description of it. I apologize if the information is already in the thread.

Thanks
Jeff


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

jddcircuit said:


> cts,
> 
> nice project. I skimmed your thread and didn't see the outcome of your BMS design. Did I miss it or is your BMS still a work in progress?
> 
> ...


BMS is a work in progress. 
I use two voltage monitoring devices on a +150 0 -150V Fashion to have redundancy, so far, after 9 months of use the cells are balanced to 0.03V.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Finally, the real thing is taking shape.

Here is my progress on the electric control unit.
Steel need to order a few bits and pieces, mostly bolts, washers, and likely some insulators to cover the live parts.

This is NOT finished


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Cool I'm excited to see your progress I have a bunch of induction motors to play with.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

I want to make you happy and to keep being updated - where and how do I rate your project positive?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Logan said:


> I want to make you happy and to keep being updated - where and how do I rate your project positive?


Thanks,
Hope it serves as inspiration for your project,

To rate, there is a link on the top right corner of the page saying "Rate Thread"


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

cts_casemod said:


> I managed to get some official VW dimensions for the motor dials on the 020 gearbox and made myself a new adapter plate. At this point I will also took some steps to get the clutch to work.


Hi. How/where did you get that??? I've been looking for 020 or 02A dimensions everywhere I can think of to no avail. 

Good going on the rest, congrats

JR


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

JRoque said:


> Hi. How/where did you get that??? I've been looking for 020 or 02A dimensions everywhere I can think of to no avail.
> 
> Good going on the rest, congrats
> 
> JR


A friend from VW found me some brochures for the VW Marine Diesel Engine. These are similar to the 1.6/1.9L Diesels and 1.8T petrol

Basically you have to design the gearbox shape on cad with all the bolts and stuff which I already had done for my previous adapter. Now with the dimensions of the two locating Dials and the cranckshaft center I adjusted the cad. I knew I was 1mm out, which was manually adjusted on the flange adapter that fits the motor. Now I have the right dimensions with about +/-0.2mm precision for the laser cut.

I might post my cad sometime, but you have to design a flange adapter for your particular model. Should be easy enough.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Slowly, slowly, some progress...

The power inverter starts to look like something. I've done my first test run today, using the mains (Built in charger powered) which did run very nicely.
I have to re-wire all the speed sensors and throttle feedback to finish the tests, so its time to re-assemble the motor and get the rpm sensor working for some real closed loop action.

I finished interfacing the IGBTs with the VFD, which included a custom PCB with level shifters. I also added low impedance current driven inputs that should have higher resistance to noise than the analog voltages used by the IGBT's control circuitry. I am doing the same with the throttle, using 4-20mA signals for transmission. This will also detect a failed sensor/wiring, hence more reliable.


















































The motor also had some modifications:



Bearings replaced with C3 tolerance to accommodate increased rotor temperature,
Designed heatshield for the main Bearing
Checked all the wiring for the last re-wire to half voltage
Modifications to add motor speed sensor and electric cooling fans


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)




----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good CTS. May I say that your controller components look rather complicated and lots of them. Is there much extra stuff on the table not needed? 

I'm interested in trying to find a budget way of building an ac controller but haven't got the skills you have to build my own controller.


----------



## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Looks good! That motor looks terrifying though. Why are the windings black? Also, if you're expecting high heat, I'd reconsider the use of plastic cable ties on the leads. Those will not hold up and you don't want leads getting caught up on the rotating internal fan.

What sort of transmission coupling are you going to use? It would have been very nice for me to have been able to use such a thin adapter plate on mine. Much cheaper to have cut I'm sure.

Watching eagerly for more progress.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking good CTS. May I say that your controller components look rather complicated and lots of them. Is there much extra stuff on the table not needed?
> 
> I'm interested in trying to find a budget way of building an ac controller but haven't got the skills you have to build my own controller.


On the table yes, but everything over the aluminum base is part of the controller. In fact I have a few parts missing like fuses for the auxiliary power supplies, which I have on order, rated for 1000VDC an auxiliary 24V power supply and control circuitry for the Pre-Charge contactor.

The red PCB over the acrylics is the main contactor driving/economiser. It was modified to drive a standard 110VAC coil contactor from 12V. Draws 96-110Watts to engage and 6 watts to keep the contact. This particular contactor cuts series sections on the batteries, so that when it is not energized the battery is divided into 3 groups with 140V each for safety.

The Shunt is a 500Amp 50mV used for the battery management. There will be another one for the 12V line, but not on the same place.

The contactor next to it is the Pre-Charge device to charge the capacitors. I am designing a PWM controller board for it right now

Next to the contactor is the blade fuse link. This acts as a safety disconnect. Yes it is big and fully rated to cut 160Amps at 440VDC should the worse happen. Cuts positive, negative and center section.

The VFD is a standard 0.55KW model with a modified opto-coupler section.

Going down the control circuitry: The battery voltage cut off relays, Frequency to voltage converter for closed loop operation, frequency relay to coast the motor if the encoder signal is lost and some relay sockets for the 12V inputs. The accessory power fuses will be installed here.

Further down is one of The PCF front end boards to charge the batteries. This has been modified to output 440-480VDC for battery charging and a 40uF film capacitor was used to replace the 450V electrolytic. It is then attached to the DC-Link capacitors. The alluminium profile under transfers the heat to the IGBT water cooled heatsink. 

On winter the whole thing acts as a heater, the circulation pump is off under certain conditions and air circulating fans take the excess heat to warm the batteries, bringing them to operational temperature. A further 500Watt electric heating will be installed here to warm them up before charging begins.

The power section is composed of 6 47uF power film capacitors than can withstand ripple currents up to 600Amps and 600Amps 1.2KV IGBTs. The DC-Link is enclosed in acrylic for protection against aluminum corrosion and high voltage accidents and the IGBT power supply was installed on the top.

The wiring will be organized (HV and LV) and secured accordingly once everything is finished. This is 100% isolated from the 12V installation.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> Looks good! That motor looks terrifying though. Why are the windings black? Also, if you're expecting high heat, I'd reconsider the use of plastic cable ties on the leads. Those will not hold up and you don't want leads getting caught up on the rotating internal fan.
> 
> What sort of transmission coupling are you going to use? It would have been very nice for me to have been able to use such a thin adapter plate on mine. Much cheaper to have cut I'm sure.
> 
> Watching eagerly for more progress.


Regarding the photos, what you can see is the natural darkening of the varnish during time, together with some rests of varnish/cloth covering the original connections. 
If you look earlier in the topic you'll find a part where this motor was opened and the internal connections changed to lower the operating voltage. With the new battery pack maximum power will be developed from 70Hz, hence nearly 15 continuous HP and at least 45HP peak. 

Pretty much all of this area was under the varnish, so the top wires were carefully removed without damaging the insulation from the windings. The result was not the prettiest, but it has proven reliable over the last months and I removed the original cable ties to inspect the condition. Nothing was melted in any way, so for the time being I will keep this setup. I am likely to replace/rewire the motor should I require more power.

The coupling will be the original clutch.

The motor shaft was cut by 30 or 40mm (cant remember which) to archive 20mm adapter thickness


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Today I finished the encoder section. i got a piece of alluminium and made a bracket for the encoder

I attached the actual motor to the inverter and got it to run without any issues. The VFD was programmed and some more sensors interfaced. 

Everything worked as expected on bench, motor works in closed loop and revs to whatever speed I spin the shaft (electrical neutral).
In torque mode it revs (faster or slower) right to maximum speed, since there is no load attached

If the time allows tomorrow Ill get the pedal box to interface the fly by wire with the inverter

Here are some photos of the encoder. I need to replace the tapper bush, since this one is damaged and get some proper bolts.




































And this is the sensor. It is an induction type rated for 3KHz with water proof connector.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hello,

Some further updates to my conversion...
_
I've been ripped of by eBay member "dave8525" This guy sells PV equipment and I got some fuses from him. Luckily I got the holders from somewhere else.

Never seen the fuses and no reply to my last two messages. Don't buy from this guy._

Back to the conversion,

The inverter is basically finished and was tested today on bench. I am waiting for some hardware just to get everything on order and ill open the VFD to make some final modifications. I bought this one with a shorted PTC so ill have to fix this, otherwise I get an overload on the accessory supply.

This time I got some RJ45 connectors , so the whole thing is basically plug and play. One connector on the front to interface with the car electrical installation, one on the back to turn the HV supply on and off and command the inverter. A Few more will be installed later for battery SOC.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RJ45-LAN-...912?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e310f9a0

The front PCB relays the motor encoder, throttle, Ignition and Start commands to the inverter. Description as follows:



 0.8 to 4.2V signal from Throttle is used to drive a +/- 10mA signal proportional to the required torque. The low impedance link is immune to noise, unlike a voltage source.


 An AMPOP is driven with +/-15V and the throttle with +/- 2.5V. This allows me to set the amount of motor slip, both positive and negative, for both acceleration and regeneration and which percentage of the pedal travel is used for each.


 There is also an opto-isolated tacho output to drive the cluster, although I still need to process that signal to make it useful to the cluster.


 On the inverter the RPM output is processed and feed back to the inverter for closed loop operation. Here the signal from the throttle is processed and added to the loop.


 A 555 used as a flip flop is used to trigger a relay after the start command is received. Such relay will stay on until the ignition is switched of and powers the main pack contactor.
 
*Pre-charge:*

I don't see many pre-charge circuits around. Maybe people still use them manually or perhaps built in the software?
My pre-charge actually does two things: It is used to drive the main contactor once the voltage on the sense resistor is less than 10V
Regulates the output for the contactor, both on start and running conditions.

So whats so special about this?



 My contactors are rated 110 or 220VAC. My pack voltage is 409VDC.


 The previous version used a series resistor and a relay. One day while doing stress tests I noticed the relay wasn't able to cut the arc and melted. Cutting DC requires a special relay. And no, I will not pay over £130 for a special DC unit with a SINGLE pole.
 

 Fully solid state PWM driven. The circuit is based on the simple and cheap 555. Two of them, in fact. The first one (just because i didn't had a comparator at hand) is used to read the divided bus voltage. This is fed into a zenner so its clamped to 15V. Once below 10V, enables the second 555, which in turn enables the PWM signal to engage the contactor. When this is done, the duty cycle is reduced to about 1-2% and the coil is feed with 24VDC.
 

 Both voltages may be adjusted from 12V to 220VDC. Typical voltages are 50V for 110AC and 90V for 220AC Coils.
 

 Power is taken from the DC-Link, so it will NOT engage with less than 2/3 of the rated voltage. This acts as a protection and frees up some amps on the 12V line (over 8Amps to start!!)
 
No Photos this time, sorry!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Das auto...

I went to see the lonely Polo again.

As I am starting the conversion from zero I am also evaluating everything.
I will eventually made some changes to the frame that supports the motor and gearbox to have an "upper deck" for the generator. Not now as my landlord decided to sell the house I rent, so i am not sure where ill be for Christmas...

I am making the passenger side mount, which I haven't before. There was a temp mount which worked ok, but the alignment was a bit out. I also need to reinforce where the lower mount goes, since its bending again. All these will be taken proper care next summer or so.

The batteries will be assembled on a 128s 2p and I am waiting for some more since I want to keep one of my 144V packs as my mobile generator. 
I am also making some custom spacers for the connections and the 12V battery will be installed on the front on a "lead" style enclosure, since I decided to use the space dedicated to the 12V portion for the electric heaters used on the main pack.













I got the pedal box changed. I replaced the standard cable actuator with a fly-by-wire setup. 





























The accelerator pedal didn't match the position and will need some changes. I need to look at this.

All ready to go, power steering was re-installed. I need to make a new control board for this as well. Real pain in the ass. The whole thing is about 10KG, not a single man job to align and place, but eventually I managed to make it go in.






























At the same time I am also replacing the gear linkage. I got a 02A corrado which is a direct fit, however these are old cars and I could not find any in good condition. Quite hard to put gears, so I decided the cheapest alternative was to go with a 02J, which is used on newer cars, can be find easily and its cheaper. These require a modification to be secured, which I am still planing, but its very likely to be a laser cut bracket.

The original brackets had to be cut for the new shifter to go on:


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Here is the bracket temporarily fitted:





























Also some work done on the clutch.

The ring gear was removed 




























And everything was put into place just to check the alignment of the parts to manufacture the missing bracket.

Clutch... Yes I have a clutch. Does it work? No.
Reason being... The 02a/j are hydraulic operated gearboxes. There is a conversion kit available from older cars, but this is no longer available from VW and costs a fortune.

Part of said engine mount also be to operate the clutch. The original polo clutch cable seems to do the job but i have to explore the clearances once the gear cables are installed. I will design my own cable operated clutch mechanism.

here everything in place:



















More updates, soon...!


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi, nice build!

I've read your posts about the original gearbox not being suitable - could you please tell me if that was type 020? I just got a VW Golf GT 1.6 1997, and the gearbox is listed as 020. Is it the same one you started with? Could you post how much clearance for motor is there from the center to the side of the driveshaft?
Thanks!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

eldis said:


> Hi, nice build!
> 
> I've read your posts about the original gearbox not being suitable - could you please tell me if that was type 020? I just got a VW Golf GT 1.6 1997, and the gearbox is listed as 020. Is it the same one you started with? Could you post how much clearance for motor is there from the center to the side of the driveshaft?
> Thanks!



A 020 does not yield any significant clearance issues. I would have used one, but it was too long for the Polo. On your golf you should be able to use all the original driveshafts and mounts (you only need to fabricate one for the electric motor).

The concerns raised are only for the hatchback Polo, lupo and Seat Arosa, which have smaller engine Bays that the remaining VW models, so a gearbox change is not straightfoward and the 085 gearbox installed on these cars has a small flange, causing clearance issues with the driveshafts and due to its small size they fail easily.

If someone asked me to do it all again I would spend the aditional £500 to get a golf instead of a Polo to save on all the touble I had 

Good luck with your conversion.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Thanks!

How is your conversion progressing? I'm in the middle of the conversion of that Golf now, currently solving the motor-gearbox combo. You can see some pictures of that here
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/71mmztbfdi4p8ag/Pm-l2VEenY

My question - do you have a CAD drawing of this transmission? I remember that you had your plate machined by CNC. I guess that there is a good chance it matches mine (1.6 Golf 97, 020 type). Would you be willing to share it?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

eldis said:


> Thanks!
> 
> How is your conversion progressing? I'm in the middle of the conversion of that Golf now, currently solving the motor-gearbox combo. You can see some pictures of that here
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/71mmztbfdi4p8ag/Pm-l2VEenY
> ...


Yes, just the usual disclaimer that I offer no guarantees or take any responsibility if the engine falls down by using my adapter 

A few notes:

The golf gearbox has a front mount. The CAD as it is wont fit that. If memory serves me right it's too thick, so it will need some changes.

Engine block locating dowels (VW P/N 022103139), are needed to fix the gearbox to the adapter plate.

If your motor flange is not flat you need another piece to go between the plate and the motor. This is dependent on the particular motor used. Notice my adapter is formed of two pieces. 

To use a standard clutch allow for enough clearance for the bolts that secure the motor. This is not a problem for direct drive.

----------


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Great, I'll treat it as such  You just saved me quite some time, thanks. Also I'm not using the clutch, so the adapter plate doesn't have to be too thick (just enough to hide the screw heads inside).


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Merry Christmas to All.

Thought I would add a bit of Information on the power steering I've used. Its a OPEL/VAUXHALL CORSA C (Corsa B models have the same pinout, but they are physically different).

I just had to re-wire everything and it was a pain in the ar*e.

Its amazing that even tough these are used for over 10 years in amateur projects the documentation on the Web is quite poor and most often people just buy the dumb controllers so for everyone reading this lets make things a bit simpler.

I did not use a plug. I carefully opened the unit and soldered the required 3 wires to the right pins. I can then use a molex connector on the other end and plug this into a PCB that will receive the motor encoder and tacho signals and display the e-rpm of the induction motor and provide the right signals for the ECU depending on the speed I am traveling.

Anyway....



















Pin 1:
Ignition switch supply for the electronics. Nothing fancy here. Wire this to the run position of the ignition switch.

Pin 5:
This pin is the rev input from the tacho. Turns the PS assist on when the engine is running. Since we are running electric we don't want to wire it this way, since when the car is stationary the PS would be off. Instead it should be wired to a 555 timer producing a square wave (Circuits can be found on-line). Range goes from 10 to 200Hz

Pin 6:
This pin reads the ABS speed sensor from the car in order to reduce the assist power when the car is moving. Dummy boxes generate a variable (By a potentiometer) frequency signal to reduce or increase assist power.

The side spade connectors are the main Power connections. These should be connected directly to the battery, supplied with a 40 or 50Amp fuse and suitable cable (6-10 sqmm)

My experience:

I've found the assist power more than enough for my car. On a previous circuit i just shunted both the tacho and the abs wires (on the controller) and run a single 80-100Hz signal trough them. This gave me assist which was quite similar to the hydraulic setup and was more than enough for my needs and avoided excessive current draw when the car is stopped (at maximum assist you only need one finger to move the steering while stationary).

For those not technically inclined a 3 wire PC 12V Fan can be used for this purpose. Simply plug the negative to chassis the positive to the ignition wire (same as pin 1). and the speed signal sensor to pins 5 and 6 on the ECU. I use this setup for test purposes.

For correct speed adjust the above circuits can be used to feed pin 5. Pin 6 is wired to the wheel ABS sensor. For those that don't have ABS two transducers are needed. One reads the speedometer sensor and converts this to an analogue voltage (Like my first closed loop circuit). The other reads this voltage and converts it back to impulses. This setup is advantageous in the way that can be used to adjust the number of impulses and hence how the steering behaves depending on number of pulses per wheel revolution, car weight, tire size, the position of earth in the cosmos, etc...

I wish everyone good luck if trying this method.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice CTS thank you. And merry Christmas sir! I've wanted to use a corsa column in various projects but been weary of the electronics. Thanks for the guidance.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

This was part of a post I did on other thread.

The circuit allows PWM control of the heating element on an EV.










Specs:

temperature measuring device: 2.2K NTC

Nominal Resistance (at 21C) - 2.2K
http://uk.farnell.com/vishay-bc-components/ntcle100e3222jb0/thermistor-ntc-2k2-5-radial/dp/1187025?Ntt=NTCLE100E3222

-55 to 150C

PWM delivered at 5C - 80%
PWM Delivered at 80C - 10%

No adjustment needed if operating at 144V using 110V heating elements.

VR100 is a 100Ohm Pot for temperature regulation.

The Fan must always be on for the circuit to operate. Wire the circuit supply to the fan low speed position.

Maximum power is delivered at 10C. Cut-off at 60C. 


The IGBT Gate driver needs an isolated 15V power supply, referenced to the HV GND.
The Low side circuit needs a regulated 5V power supply referenced to the vehicle 12V GND. 
The high side DC-DC can be feed from the low side 5V regulated voltage. If using a 7805 a heat-sink might be required.


http://uk.farnell.com/murata-power-solutions/mev3s0515sc/converter-dc-dc-3w-5-to-15v-3kv/dp/1818378

5 Input, 15 Output. Can be powered by the regulated 5V supply to avoid oscillations (Models with wide input voltage (9-18V) also available but more expensive.
A 1Kohm load resistor is required to keep output regulation

http://uk.farnell.com/vishay/vo3120-x007t/optocoupler-igbt-driver-25a/dp/2251532?Ntt=vo3120

And the driver.


As always, use a suitable fuse.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The polo is almost finished (again... LOL)!

Been testing the inverter and motor yesterday. Runs supper smoothly with the new adapter plate.

Lots of cabling for the new equipment. A cycle annalist is being installed to check battery details. I decided I wanted the extra features like e-MPG, total electric distance and several other cool options like battery total energy in and out, cycle count, etc. Other meters on the market didn't account for this.

Now for the boring part. J1772 Protocols. I should update soon. 

A First Version will be very simple, just charger control up to 16Amp @ 240V

Second version will add current capability to the charger (Negotiated with the charging station) along with a charging station to use at home. I have opened a topic and since no one has any ideas i will develop my own version which should be posted here sometime.

Updates soon...


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi Folks,

Hope everyone is having a nice time.
Sadly the weather here is not really the best, so I haven't been taking photos from my setup.

Anyway I have been perfecting my system and I reached something usable. I now have very fine torque control and stuff works as it should. Few components relocated to avoid interference from the inverter

The current system is quite high in complexity. Next step is to make individual components, however at this stage it might make sense to ditch the VFD at all and make a simple board.

Member jhuebner has just the thing. His system works in the same way as mine but using a combined PCB for all modules, so for those that want to give it a try have a look. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/another-homebrew-ac-controller-45909.html

At this early stage I am unsure how I am going to evolve my system. For the time being I recommend the above link for anyone going this route.

I measured 30HP out of my motor, which meets the expectations. Not bad for 10HP nominal power. The car is noticeably faster with the new pack and revs all the way up to 3400RPM under heavy load.

The inverter itself is damn stable. I never had a stop/error or erratic behaviors. The plates seen on my previous pictures are sufficient for cooling without any fan. In fact they get only a few degrees higher than ambient, so the cooling system is in stand-by.

The PFC Charger works like a charm. A slow speed FAN is needed to cool the inductor, which reaches 70C after 45min of operation. With cooling it never gets above 30C, even with the doors closed. Currently charges to 1.5KW, since the other half is on my bench for J1772 Implementation and tests.

With 20M of 0.75mm cable and an average current of 7Amps, the voltage drop on the cables is only 10V!

The RPM and Speed sensor wires were taken to the speedometer and a circuit made to read the motor RPM from the built in encoder. Should someone need here's how:

























http://imageshack.com/a/img35/3002/7qk5.jpg









This was using a test pattern on the encoder input, which is divided by 9.

New communication cable:


















This PCB Controlls:

Throttle,
Power steering,
Tachometer
Isolated supply for the cycle analyst
Isolated signals for RPM and vehicle speed
Brake lights when regenerating
Some outputs for tests


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The headlamps were upgraded.

I was going to use LED's for the high beam, but the complexity has put me off for the time being. Maybe after the MOT. The projector does high beam too. When some more time is available Ill do a DIY about replacing lights with LEDs. Not the ones you can buy. PROPER ones that outperform stock bulbs.


















PFC Charger input by the way:










I also got some data from my car. just installed a cycle annalist. 
Here are the output screens:

























Velocity in miles per hour
















Battery is empty now!!


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi Folks.

So today I took the Family to have some lunch on Ikea.

While there I had to check out the charging points.
Bit of a messy wiring as I gathered information from following points on how to use this stuff. The charger was recently installed so it follows the most recent protocol.

Clearly the green painted pavement works. I never seen an idiot parking an ICE on there and these places are right next to the entrance, after the disabled bays.

I shall post details on the next post


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I had to gather information from a few different sources about the public charging infrastructure, so here's an idiot proof guide.

The J1772 (USA) or IEC 62196 (Europe) use the same exact signals, with a different plug.

I'm going to skip the current limit bit, since this is generic information that can be had elsewhere.

The following image illustrates how it works on a J1772 Handle (Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:J1772_signaling_circuit.gif)










Two signals are needed to power the car. These are the *Proximity Pilot* and the *Control Pilot*.

Now this is where it gets confusing. Since some folks already have the car circuitry onboard they only refer to the proximity sensor while other sources only talk about the pilot, as it seems that older EVSE's don't fully check/comply with it.
The proximity signal is the tricky one, since it requires power from an external source to operate.

The *proximity pilot* indicates whenever the plug is inserted into the car or not and also serves the purpose to stop charging before the plug is removed.

The protocol says that the car must supply ~3.0V to indicate that the plug is inserted, which drops to ~1.5V once the button is pressed. This disables power before the user takes the plug of.

The above schematic shows a possible way to make this, but bare in mind that the circuit must be self powered because all this happens before the EVSE enables power. 
The proposed circuit requires a 5 conductor cable and allows the car to disable power upon pressing the button. You dont really need this while using a true EVSE, but I heard of some blokes that simply power the live pins, in which case it is desirable that the charger stops pulling any significant current.

Assuming a correct EVSE is used a 4 conductor cable can be used instead. Since there is no power coming from the vehicle (Because there is no physical conductor for the proximity pin) a passive circuit must be built. This can be achieved with a small charged lithium battery inside the handle, attached to a switch, hence reading 1.5V when triggered. The EVSE will disable power upon pressing the switch, before the cable is detached. 

I am quite sure I could use the pilot to draw this small amount of power too. Ill check on that later.


The *control pilot* Indicates whenever the car is connected (or not) and if the car is requesting power.


The other bit is the pilot, in which the car identifies itself as present to the EVSE and later requests power. After the diode:
A voltage of 12V indicates the car is not present.
A Voltage of 8~9V indicates that the car is present, not requesting power
A voltage of 5~6V indicates that the car is present and requesting power.

Since the EVSE CC terminal is a current source, the resistor values of 1.3 and 2.74K must be respected in order to archive the correct voltages. 

This may also be useful to make extension leads, since if the two sockets are paralleled the values will be different.

The sequence of events must be respected on newer EVSE's.

I shall return with a schematic once I can see if the power for the proximity sensor can be derived from the pilot.

_*EDIT: FEB 2014*_

Hi Folks,

Time has been short and I still havent got the time to test the full passive circuit.
In the meanwhile I simplified the circuit since I didnt want a bunck of 3A Batteries falling off the cable.

*Using the schematic above as reference:*

R4 and R5 are removed and a single CR123 NON RECHARGEABLE Battery is placed inside the plug. 

R6 and R7 are replaced by two 220R Resistors. 
Under normal operation R6 in series with the battery, protecting the EVSE/Cable from any possible malfunction.
R7 is positioned in series with the proximity switch instead or R6.

When the handle button is not pressed the battery voltage seen by the EVSE is 3V since the voltage drop in R6 is neglegible
When the button is pressed R6 and R7 for a voltage divider and the output as seen by the EVSE is 1/2VCC or 1.5V signaling a power shutdown event.
*
REAL LIFE OPERATION:*

This was used on a last generation EVSE.
The EVSE ignores the proximity switch going low. It requires is presence, signaled with 3V, but does not respond to the button press.
Power is cut by when the button on the pilot line is open, and remains cut if closed again, so the proximity sensor on the plug may be used for this purpose. I will keep both just in case. One is NO and other is NC.

Since the voltage dividers were mostly removed the proximity sensor only draws about 1mA when attached to the EVSE and no power when the cable is un-attached. This is already a true standalone operation and makes possible to use a good quality 2P + E cable. using a 3P + E cable, assuming the charger draws no more than 15Amp (larger currents require negotiation).

The cable is locked to the EVSE until I swipe the acess card again, regardless of the state of the switches (They are only used for signaling and power cut).


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

wow, I just read all thirty of this "new to me" build. Thank you for all the time taken to post so much.

I have a 95% complete Mk1 (cabriolet) conversion (144v DC) and reading through yours a few thoughts came up.

Does your setup somehow require power steering? I noticed you mentioned it was "light as a feather" so it probably is similar to mine on weight. I capped off my fluid hoses for my old steering and my car steers _very _easily. With your light battery pack I really can't imagine you needing power steering whatsoever.

Also I've not yet got my brake booster vacuum pump installed and after driving 3 sessions I'm thinking it's not totally necessary either, my brakes are decent without any boost, but this logic seems sketchy at best, hehe.

I was surprised to see you couldn't really get an 020 to work due to length because my main worry was with diameter, my warp9 barely clears the drive shaft by 1/4". Is the length issue in your car mainly due to being a Polo?

Finally, is your old gas tank under the back passenger seats? Mine is , and removing it requires dropping the back axle, which I still haven't gotten around to, but what do you think of putting a battery box there instead of the rear? Seems like being in front of the back axle might yield better "center of gravity" issues for the suspension. Your battery pack is MUCH lighter than mine so maybe this isn't an issue for you. But just wondered if that location is the same for you.

great job, keep the faith!
Josh


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

bwjunkie said:


> I have a 95% complete Mk1 (cabriolet) conversion (144v DC) and reading through yours a few thoughts came up.


Not familiar with the Golf Mark1, but assuming it is similar to the mk2, these are my thoughts:



bwjunkie said:


> Does your setup somehow require power steering? I noticed you mentioned it was "light as a feather" so it probably is similar to mine on weight. I capped off my fluid hoses for my old steering and my car steers _very _easily. With your light battery pack I really can't imagine you needing power steering whatsoever.


Yes, Both.

Power steering:
You can either get a manual rack or get your converted. Options are
to either get a Electric PS or an EPAS, otherwise it is classed as an MOT Failure.
Electric hydraulic PS pumps are an easy conversion, but also a major power drain, typically 10A idling and up to 45Amp under operation. If possible use an EPAS. 



Brakes,
Not sure if the MK1 was ever offered without servo. In any case I would not recomend such setup. The brakes will have a fairly hard job with the added battery weight.
You need vacuum, or it will fail MOT on brake efficiency



bwjunkie said:


> I was surprised to see you couldn't really get an 020 to work due to length because my main worry was with diameter, my warp9 barely clears the drive shaft by 1/4". Is the length issue in your car mainly due to being a Polo?


Oh... this is a 6N1 and 6N2 POLO/LUPO and Seat Arosa Issue. Engine Bays are smaller. As to the diameter you are also right, the original type 085 GB is too small. 020 and 02A should fit without trouble.



bwjunkie said:


> Finally, is your old gas tank under the back passenger seats? Mine is , and removing it requires dropping the back axle, which I still haven't gotten around to, but what do you think of putting a battery box there instead of the rear? Seems like being in front of the back axle might yield better "center of gravity" issues for the suspension. Your battery pack is MUCH lighter than mine so maybe this isn't an issue for you. But just wondered if that location is the same for you.


Yes it is. I didnt remove the rear axle. The exhaust was the only thing on the way, but it is long gone. On my case I had to take the filler neck out of the tank (bit fiddly). Once that gets out of the way the tank can be removed. Have a look to see if you can do the same.

My battery pack/Inverter electronics and enclusure weight ~100KG and it sits where the rear tyre was. They sit sirectly on the cross members so have good support. 

Where the tank used to sit is also a good place for the batteries if you can get good mounting points, however I just dont have the facilities to do so. If I did, I would defenitivelly place the electronics and a few batteries there, but you wont have space for that many, the bigest portion will either have to sit at the engine bay or at the rear

EDIT:
The MOT failures I indicated are based on the UK Law. Since you are in a different place you might get away with it, but use caution.
Best thing after conversion is not to waste too much time and book an MOT. They will give you a list of stuff you need to change, which should clarify any doubts


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

i would absolutely an abridged version of this so i dont have to read 30 pages of it, i read the first 5 pages and ran out out of puff
iv always been a great lover of ac industrial motors


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

arklan said:


> i would absolutely an abridged version of this so i dont have to read 30 pages of it, i read the first 5 pages and ran out out of puff
> iv always been a great lover of ac industrial motors


Even if you read the 30 you'll only have an introduction to the subject, let alone 5. The intent of this topic is to give a description of my conversion, not spoon feed the reader about motor theory.

There are some very good application notes online regarding the subject, should you want to go into further detail. Also the Australian AEVA forum, is a good place to start.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Currently I am working on a more reliable battery monitoring system and vehicle management system

On the back of the vehicle a data log system will gather real time information to make battery SOC calculations. This will replace all the present electronics to enable inverter, manage charger, DC-DC etc.


As Planed last year main pack battery voltage will be read in two banks of 205V and compared to detect any problems with the pack. The main difference is the addition of full isolation. Voltage readings from the pack are opto-isolated and used for the inverter and instruments. 

Currents will be measured with the hall sensor, since I am experiencing a poor resolution using a high side shunt and 4 meters of cable, so no more HV cables and signal losses.

Most data will use bluetooth to communicate with the front slave unit which is composed of a user display and some non real time inputs, such as the start button, DC-DC Indicator, temperatures and Battery status.

The back unit will have a GSM modem for remote monitoring and GPS tracking. The vehicle can also be remotelly disabled.

Should there be any interest in the system I might offer some kits in the future. Details of the build soon.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi all...

It seems that image ImageShack decided to change their T's & C's and are no longer offering a free service.

As a result of this most images on this topic will soon become dead as I dont feel like paying for an expensive subscription when the website has problems resizing the images and its a real pain to browse trough all of them.

Anyway... As time permits I may start a new thread.



Regarding the Polo... The work continues, a bit slower than expected. I had plans to design a new sub-frame to contain the traction motor, air conditioner and a few other acessories but sadly I dont really have the facilities to do so, as such, for the time being all stays as it is.


So far no major issues. I just installed things and forgot, every now and then a do re-check the bolts and torque them as necessary.

The Battery as expected, meets or exceeds the 40 mile range per charge. The new on-board computer calculates hystorical power usage and displays an average "miles to empty" indicator.

As it stands I am currently making a major re-build to the main control system. Hopefully ill be getting rid of the VFD and the control gear present on the car, which will be replaced with a main ECU and the remote computer seen on the last photo, which will be integrated into the cluster.

Last week I was invited to showcase the car. Here are some photos.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice sir. Sorry to hear about imageshack. You can host them on the forum, or through the tapatalk mobile app.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Go to your account and download all your images. Take all your pages and move them to a Google Blog. Free. That will preserve them for all to see. Yes, it will be some work but its free and a way to continue. 

Pete


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

I use dropbox to host my photos. Easiest way, I think, since you just copy them to a folder on your own computer, right click on it, and copy the URL to the clipboard for sharing. Alternatively, many people use imgur.com for image hosting. Both are free.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I use Google. If you use your computer to host your photos your photos will not be accessible if your home server goes down for any reason. Ive had mine down for days without ever knowing. Google has been perfect since I started using it. There is a limit but that limit is pretty high.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> I use Google. If you use your computer to host your photos your photos will not be accessible if your home server goes down for any reason. Ive had mine down for days without ever knowing. Google has been perfect since I started using it. There is a limit but that limit is pretty high.


Dropbox is cloud storage. You just don't have to log in to a website to upload your files. A program runs on your computer that syncs your dropbox folders to their servers. There's a public folder that lets you post photos and things.

If you do try it, use this link to get it as it gives us both a bit more space (referral bonus) https://db.tt/gxIhxx4B


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You still need to be connected to the internet and those cloud things usually are slow if many decide to view your images at once. I have super fast access but can loose access for may reasons. I don't like Cloud services.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> You still need to be connected to the internet and those cloud things usually are slow if many decide to view your images at once. I have super fast access but can loose access for may reasons. I don't like Cloud services.


Content is synced to their servers. I don't have to be connected. Been using it for at least 6 years now with no issues. I also use it to sync folders between several of my computers. I keep all my important files in it (in private folders) so they're always backed up online. It even saves multiple versions of files. Worth checking out.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have my own (shared) server, presently www.1and1.com, but before that I used www.dreamhost.com. I also use my own domain name for photos, and other files I link to on my websites and forums. So I just kept the same file organization on the new server and didn't "lose" anything. The same thing can be done with other file hosting sites, where a domain name link can redirect to whatever site you wish to use. You might try www.tinypic.com, which may still be free, easy to use, and offers some image resizing and other useful options.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> Content is synced to their servers. I don't have to be connected. Been using it for at least 6 years now with no issues. I also use it to sync folders between several of my computers. I keep all my important files in it (in private folders) so they're always backed up online. It even saves multiple versions of files. Worth checking out.


I did. Interesting. Don't like that it opens a door to the computer. But interesting. Yes it works and the copy on the cloud is used for off site viewing. I'll try with my blog. Post images to the folder then access online for linking to my blog. No important information will be hosted yet.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> I have my own (shared) server, presently www.1and1.com, but before that I used www.dreamhost.com. I also use my own domain name for photos, and other files I link to on my websites and forums. So I just kept the same file organization on the new server and didn't "lose" anything. The same thing can be done with other file hosting sites, where a domain name link can redirect to whatever site you wish to use. You might try www.tinypic.com, which may still be free, easy to use, and offers some image resizing and other useful options.


I have a full blown server at my place. I have had excellent results using comcast business service. Super fast access. But I have had my computer that has the server shut off for a few days without knowing. I don't access my own server daily. Mostly it just runs itself. I like having my own server. Full control of my content and how the server operates. I have my own image sizer. Easy and fast if I choose to use it.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I just started hosting them in a new server, just not in a mood to upload all the other 200+ pics.

Within the next year I will have a brand new control system for the car and I may start a more up to date thread for it, but we will see...

The development of the inverter has been a bit harder than needed, once I have that completed I will finally be able to make a custom map to suit my motor and get all the monitoring systems working toguether, with a bit of luck an open source inverter.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Just a heads up to those planing on going to lithium...

My battery supplier just sent me an e-mail, confirming a price drop on cells I use to less than 12.5USD per piece this week only, which is a very decent price.

For those interested here is the website:

http://hzliao.en.alibaba.com

I have no affiliation with the seller, simply been using their cells for 2 years without any issues.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

those r 10ah 3.2v cells yeah?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

arklan said:


> those r 10ah 3.2v cells yeah?


Yes they are


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Very busy around here with the new inverter rev.

I have been building PCB's for micro(s), level shifters and transducers for the user interface. The inverter unit is also ready.Right now not going into details, but the hardware, apart from the battery SoC meter should soon be completed.

Still a lot to do in software, mostly due to the lack of hardware. For the last few days I have been hacking the cluster and linking the several independent systems together on bench. 

Good news tough, I finished nodding the cluster and have all the electrical details available to drive the gauges and anything else not shown on the display.

VW was kind enough to leave a blank space for the second optional CAN plug that my vehicle does not use, so I used it to send/receive signals. The result is a near stock cluster with two plus. one goes to the vehicle original installation, the other goes to my ECU.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Tomorrow if the weather allow, its time to install the preliminary V4 control unit on the car. All the loose wiring on the front was removed to leave only the motor and gearbox cables and I am left with some changes to the IGBT drivers.

Two PCB's, one under the dash and another on the back with a few optional accessories such as pre-charge, charger and battery management, which are done autonomously ATM.
The final PCB will have a power module ad-on to take care of all this stuff.

Right now the software is in a workable state, bench tested and seems to operate correctly.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

I would love to see your electronics in more details - maybe some pictures of instrumentation cluster insides, some interconnection diagram, etc


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

eldis said:


> I would love to see your electronics in more details - maybe some pictures of instrumentation cluster insides, some interconnection diagram, etc


Nothing much exciting yet.
Other than what is shown in this thread I have a few new PCB's hanged arround on the car. So far the instrumentation is not connected, only the transducers for the motor encoder and the throttle current source. This is because I cant get rid of the old system at one go, so for this phase I will have both until gradually all peripherals are networked to the new system.

The good news is that from February to May I will be working on the car on my university as part of a research I'm carrying out, regarding electric vehicle sustainability, (which as of today goes as far as the offering a grant/rebate on of each new vehicle) 

The research will cover the traction motor and inverter, so by the time I am finished I should (finally) have something doable to offer here for those trying to do the same type of conversions.


Some progress today:
I completelly replaced the old motor control unit with the new one as it would be too much hassle to do it gradually.

The thing worked reasonably well, however the throttle mapping nedds adjustment, which will probaly be achieved with a look up table. 
The instrumentation, DC-DC, etc was all off today, so no idea what speeds/economy. The motor had an excellent pull at > 500RPM. 

Regeneration is working poorly, one of the loops is probably buggy.

Motor operating frequency raised to 4KHz, so at partial load is completelly silent, whith the usual "slip noise" during high torque demand.

I'm going to charge the car tomorrow, so hopefully Ill be able to get some more data.


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## flyn_brian (Oct 21, 2012)

Well needless to say I have read this entire thread and can honestly proclaim that it was educational as well as entertaining. Thank you for posting your journey into the building an ev using an industrial motor. I have subscribed to the thread and will check back often to see how you rectify the replacing the vfd with one of your own design. I can only hope that you make it open source so that others can make and modify on the design. Thank you for posting your progress thus far.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

flyn_brian said:


> Well needless to say I have read this entire thread and can honestly proclaim that it was educational as well as entertaining. Thank you for posting your journey into the building an ev using an industrial motor. I have subscribed to the thread and will check back often to see how you rectify the replacing the vfd with one of your own design. I can only hope that you make it open source so that others can make and modify on the design. Thank you for posting your progress thus far.


Quite educational, yes!

I done some tests on the new inverter, so far the economy seems to be a bit worse as a result of a more mild regeneration (Currently 3% versus 11% previously) with all the rest being the same. I have yet to implement 3rd harmonic injection and or Space vector modulation, which should make it about 10% more efficient, in the range of 200W/mile or 125W/Km

I do need to remap the throttle as I have a huge gap between regen/acceleration and work on some filtering for the encoder to improve low speed loop stability. Quite likelly migrate to a 32bit micro at some point.

I am all about open source design, but its sad to see that there is so little help. For those wishing to help with the design I am open to some colaboration, which so far as been minimun. I am mostly looking at migrating to an arm processor, perhaps an STM100 or STM103 and I am looking at the details to configure the PSC peripheral. Sugestions welcome.

Gate driver design would also be interesting. So far I have some custom drivers for_ IGBTs _in the range of 100-200Amps. I understand that this might not be enough to all conversions, but I will hardly go above this level for a DIY available project, before choosing a comertial driver. If we could all work on some part of the project I am pretty sure a DIY alternative would be widelly available in a short time.

Paul, from www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com is also in the process of finisnhing his 3 phase inverter, which sounds promising. No ideas on pricing tough


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Well some updates.

Made some more corrections to the PIC code, including adding 3rd harmonic and doubling the PWM frequency to 8KHz to avoid distortion (I am using 64 entries).

I measured 60Amps acceleration and 30Amps regeneration up to 35mph (Max I can do here). Car pulls extremely well on a step gradient.
Motor runs smoothly within 500-3000RPM.

For regeneration I prefer the slip control method so have to do some changes.

Problems:

I seem to have instability at low speeds, very likely because of my speed ramp settings, so I have to optimize those. The encoder issues appear to have been solved.

I need to add voltage boost at low revs and electrical reverse.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Some more updates:

I just tested the car today and operation is 100% smooth. Motor operates OK with or without load within the full RPM range.

Right now there is an issue with Regen, if I go from acceleration to full Regen the thing gets confused and brakes suddenly for a short period until it starts regenerating properly. In all other cases it operates correctly, so just a matter of finding the "bug"

At the moment I need to start thinking about upgrading the CPU or adding another shift register as I am out of I/O's. Ill leave that to the final version when I add all the fancy stuff.

I finished the assembler routines on the pic for the low speed voltage boost and reverse and added a few other bits and pieces.

Regeneration re-configured all the way to zero. I wanted to disable at low speeds, but in practice its not fun to stop regenerating at 5MPH at 1M of the car ahead, and certainly not worth the hassle to switch pedals and hit the brake (Hydraulic brakes...? Thats so old fashioned )

So far I am left with the following:


Add brake light for regeneration above 25%
Program the master CPU to only allow reverse selection if the car is stopped
Brake pedal input:
If pressed, both hydraulic brakes and regeneration stop the car. When the brake is released Regen is disabled and the vehicle coasts to a stop. Alternatively, pressing the throttle again will re-enable Regen. This is to make it flexible. 

I will also disable Regen while the reverse gear is selected.

And thats all.

For the final version the following is planned:

Integrate High and low Voltage sections in the main PCB

This provides:


DC-Link Monitoring
Battery SoC Monitoring
Charger and EVSE Control (AC Disables traction Inverter and switches DC-DC and on-board equipment to AC Power)

Protection:

Over-current detection - Uses a high side shunt and some hardware comparators rather than a hall sensor

AC control using a SCR and a Capacitor for AC pre-charge

Series DC Pre-charge contactor replaced with an IGBT, to allow instant short circuit detection (fuses are expensive).

Electronics will be powered from the high side power supply, as usual, but I will add DC (12V) Backup as well.

And of course add a few bits and pieces like a local display and a bunch of LED's. Its nearly Christmas


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

A few more miles and everything ok. 
I couldn't fully charge the car to get an actual mileage, but regen has improved as low speed performance is very good. 

The motor is much more silent. I am only using nominal slip for the time being. The trick is to add yet another lookup table to be able to boost slip at higher revs only. I have plenty of low end torque below 2000 RPM.

I lost my temper today with the charging company.
Charger one had the locking solenoid stuck on the lock position, so couldn't fit the plug in. Charger two, as usual, locked my plug after I inserted it, just this time the RFID reader wasn't working, so no way to swipe the card to take it off. 

Called the company, explained plug was stuck, to find the operator clueless. Went on the phone with an engineer (maybe he's reading this as he was not aware I could have a electric... polo ), asked me to remove the plug from the vehicle and try to pull the plug from the EVSE just in case it wasn't locked... Being electric I guess I could hear it disengaging, right...? 

This went on for some time, got a suggestion to use a 'nerby' charging point. I calmly explained I needed my cable to be able to charge elsewhere... Anyway, told me he was going to schedule an engineer to come to the place, called half an hour later, saying due to traffic would not be able to come. [Right...]

At this point I grabbed a pair of pliers, opened the EVSE, switched the mains RCD's off and manually released the locking mechanism (There's a manual override lever inside for that purpose) for both chargers, got my cable out of the faulty side and plugged it on the opposite side. 

So one has to ask what to do when the cable gets stuck. Apparently the suggestion was to use the fast charger (which requires a 62196 receptacle and locking mechanism on the car...) Not very ethical to occupy a fast charger for 4 or 6 hours...

I guess its another of those 'entertaining' moments one gets with the ownership of an electric car... moving on!


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

cts_casemod said:


> The encoder issues appear to have been solved.


Did you end up using a pulse or an analog signal?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

jhuebner said:


> Did you end up using a pulse or an analog signal?


Yes, I ended up using the pulse signal.
Input capture peripheral for period measurement and output compare for zero speed detection.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Doing some more tests with the inverter, this time to increase the power above nameplate.

Currently low end torque is fantastic, I can simply 'dump' 12KW from a stop, quickly increasing to 22KW at nameplate. From there may slip help us. I tried as much as 350% slip with good results. Efficiency is good, but there's a limit to how much power I can send to the motor at higher revs: about 14KW.

The previous inverter was capable of 30KW short term, but efficiency above 20KW started to go down quite fast. I'm working to get about 22KW. 

So far the economy has improved to about 230W/mile. 

The meter reads 0.5A with no load and apparently the higher inverter frequency is making it read a bit more than it should (2-3A), so I'm likely to be on closer to the 200W/Ml mark.

I have been testing my code on a lab I have access to and wanted to test what would happen if I were to feed a square wave to an induction motor. 

Quite surprisingly the efficiency does boost up, although I have to carry out a few more tests, since I'm not happy with the torque output (Using the inverter from the test bed, not mine) So far I plotted the following data:














































Yellow waveform is current, Blue is line to line voltage.
270V voltage is a square wave from the DC-LINK


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

The other day I was thinking about system isolation while doing the PCB's.

Normally one does away with linking the HV and LV grounds for Isolation purposes, but that got me thinking what would happen if a fault on the motor windings does occur. Because the motor is earthed to the chassis, so the chassis will become live. The isolation means a standard RCD cannot be used to detect the fault.

The other thing, probably of more concern, is capacitive coupling. There may be a difference of potential of a few KV due to static charge accumulation that may blow the isolators or other devices that have linkage between the power rails.

Has anyone considered this?


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

New PCBs arriving in a few days. I will hopefully take a few photos of the new system.

I now have 4 high current 12V outputs for brake light/coolant pump and other stuff.

Charger control is integrated in the main boards. SPI/I2C Isolated interfaces for whatever one can think of interfacing the controller to.

The second PCB has the DSPIC that generates the IM waveforms, a built in 15V power supply, pre-charge contactor with adjustable output voltage (20-VBAT) and some other bits and pieces.

Brake lights can be triggered by the motor regen or the speedometer. I wanted to use the switch on the image below but it was patented already 

For the time being the cluster TFT will have to wait, but I'm making some trials with CANBUS and I2C.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

I've been relativelly busy the last couple of months ammongst other things some of you may have heard about my appearance on the Mayor of London low Carbon Entreperneur competition.

I finished porting the system to the new spec as promised. I am making an average of 30 miles a day with the car and no problems. 

The working voltage for this system is 320 - 409VDC Nominal, with a peak voltage of 500VDC, which allows the use of industrial 208VAC motors or to a lesser extend 415VAC with reduced power output.









































As promised the whole goal of the controller was to be a fully centralized system, rather than a motor controller only. 

Aditional boards can be added on demand, trough the use of communication buses. This is also advantageous as the main boards are never obsolete as new features are added. 

The BOM for the complete set of 3 PCB's should be below £100 (farnell) with the PCB's adding another £50. No special (expensive) transducers are required.

There is a driver for the high voltage contactor and a power stage for 4x6A 12V outputs such as reverse light, battery contactor, charger, etc...

The last Printed circuit board sits near the driver and interfaces the trottle and inputs (brake, ignition, etc) to the controller. It has a built in switch mode power supply and converts the trottle output into a variable current signal to avoid signal degradation. The controller also uses this to detect a broken or shorted wire.

I plan on offering an upgraded version in the future to add some wireless communication showing the battery state of charge, vehicle voltages, igbt temperature and other parameters. This will work with the current hrdware revision (so either the basic or the upgraded version can be used)

I have no idea in making a profit with the controller, but given the lack of decent systems that can act as a complete electric vehicle controller, poor documentation on how the features are implemented and nearly closed source architecture I would be very pleased to provide the control PCB's and a limited ammount of support for anyone who wishes to try this out. The set of 3 PCB's are about £50. PM me if interested.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

After moving to a more rural area, earlier this year, the dreaded problem, everyone with an electric car faces on winter has just become worse.

Electric powered vehicles are so efficient, when compared to Internal combustion engines, that there's no residual heat available to heat the cabin or defrost the windows. To make things worse, batteries loose capacity when cold, so one is depleting a limited range even further.

I installed a Diesel heater on my car. The car inside temperature increased 20C after only 5 minutes, after which I reduced the heating dial to 1/3. This kept the vent outlet at 30-40C and the inside of the car at about 30C.










Full load (5KW) is available 3 minutes after startup.


Test conditions:

Outside temperature/Humidity: 12C/80%.
Fuel consumption: 600ml/H at full load.
Real Life fuel consumption: About 200ml/Hour (Outside 10C, Inside 25C)


Sadly I run out of memory on the phone, so had to jump trough a few things. Will redo once temperatures drop below zero.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

Very nice!

It's what I intended to do but then I was too lazy and went electric instead.

Good to see it's running without a reservoir.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

jhuebner said:


> Very nice!
> 
> It's what I intended to do but then I was too lazy and went electric instead.
> 
> Good to see it's running without a reservoir.


I'm designing a electric version as well, to complement when the weather is mild or when I'm plugged to an EVSE. Ill post some details once I have all the bits.

This runs without a reservoir, but if the car is switched off while the heater is operating at full power, the inside fan must be kept running for one or two minutes to allow enough time to clear any fuel on the lines, otherwise it quickly overheats and will lock until the fault code is cleared, so not as convenient as an electric model 

I plan to install a thermo switch on the coolant line that runs the fan when the coolant is above 60C. This is also handy when the unit is triggered remotely to pre-warm the car (I'm working on a GSM shield for that).

Otherwise, all good. Nice and toasty air, whatever the temperature outside.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

Ah yes, similar behavior on the Eberpächer D5W on my Diesel car.

I had to couple the SSR of my electric heater to the fan, otherwise it will develop a tendency to melt away  It's also quite dangerous in my case if the IGBT fails shorted. It did happen (due to a screw up) but luckily I could just stop the car which opens the main breaker and then remove the fuse of the heater. It was quite smellable though


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

7 months down the road with the new Inverter here's an update:

Zero issues/malfunctions.

1 Software update back in July to disable regenerative braking, because of issues with the engine mounts. This reduced autonomy by 5 miles.
To present, no further issues with the mounts.

Two 130Miles journeys. No Issues, other than slow charging times

Battery pack was verified and re-calibrated in October. It appears to hold about 18Ah or 90% of the original capacity, however the equipment accuracy is not the best (500A Shunt with long wires), so the values may be a bit off. Mileage is steady.

Motorway driving: 
30Miles @ 50MPH + 5 miles at 30MHP -> 3rd or 4th gear
20Miles @ 60MPH + 10 Miles at 30MPH -> 4th gear

Urban Driving: 
Summer: 35 Miles.
Winter: At least 20 Miles. Additional mileage may require throttle cap to keep battery voltage above 360V (2.8Vpc)

Short term urban driving is affected at low temperatures if the battery is cold. Lithium batteries are particularly lazy below 5C. Motorway driving gets the battery warm regardless.

The temperatures lately are ridiculously high, averaging 8-10C, so unable to fully test the webasto heater

Now the bad bits:
I haven't enabled the Electric power steering since the system inverter retrofit started in February last year. As a result a collapsible bit of the steering wheel cracked. This time I went solid.

The bit wasn't actually broken, I finished snapping it as it was easier to take the bearing outside the car.

Some updates:



































The repaired bit was welded solid both sides.


























Now sitting in place:


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

Also part of the work was to re-tidy the wiring and re-enable the EPAS. It doesn't bother me much to drive, but parking can be a bit tedious at times.

Here the user interface board that converts the analog signal from the electronic throttle to a current source. 










The inverter can detect open/shorted/out of range values. At the time I was in a bit of a rush so I skipped the Electric power steering and the isolated tachometer outputs the old system had. That means the cycle analyst is just working as a amp meter. Mileage is not recorded. 

In the meanwhile, since I haven't done so in the past, here's a handy circuit to drive the EPAS









Original Full size image here:
http://oi68.tinypic.com/2z4fxxl.jpg

Small prototype board with the circuit components for the EPAS:









The clocks are generated by an attiny 13. A main clock is set to 35Hz to simulate engine running. The secondary clock sets the assist power. 
The default programmed values go from 55 to 218Hz. The correct range goes all the way down from 0, but I found the steering too sensitive.

LED1 blinks to indicate the circuit is working. There is a 3second delay from the moment ignition is turned on to the moment the EPAS is activated. This is to allow the DC-DC to start first.

The 2 NE555 chips are just a push pull buffer to output a nice 12V square wave. Output current is limited trough a 47R Resistor, just in case.

Diode D1 creates a virtual GND as the 555 only resets below 0.7V. I Think the trigger input could be set for this but haven't quite checked yet.

Regarding the Attiny13:

The attiny can be programmed in seconds and costs pennies. It also allows a startup delay that the 555 would not and can disable the EPAS if the voltage goes to low (Not implemented).

To program, the Arduino Environment can be used with a AVR MK2 ISP or a USBASP programmer. The Attiny13 files are required to add support, which can be easily find online.

Programming is done in AVR GGC style. Code Below:


```
/* EPAS CONTROL UNIT - Open loop, manually adjustable feedback
 * Designed by C. Silva - Acessory & user interface PCB's - The Electric VW project (2012-2015)
 ** December 2015 **
 * 
 * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 * 
 * ADC inputs:
 * Analog potentiometer. 0 to VCC, 128 levels.
 * 
 * Outputs:
 * Output 1: Engine Running signal, SQUARE WAVE, 35Hz
 * Output 2: Power steering assist level. User adjustable from 55 to 218Hz
 * Output 3: Blinking Indicator
 *
 ****************************************************************************************************************************************/


  //Define CPU Clock, to correctly set up the delay function
  #define F_CPU 1200000    // 9.6MHz with CLKDIV8 Fuse Enabled = 1.2MHz
  
  //Atmel delay function
  #include <util/delay.h>
  
  byte adc = 0;       // Variable to store ADC result
  // byte output = 0;    // Used to delay EPAS startup
  uint16_t i = 0;     // Variable to store count value for non blocking delay

// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

void setup() {

  DDRB |= _BV(0); //Make (PB0) an output        // Engine running indicator output
  DDRB |= _BV(1); //Make (PB1) an output        // EPAS control Output
  DDRB &= ~_BV(2); //Make (PB2) an input        // ADC for user selectable assist level       
  DDRB |= _BV(4); //Make (PB4) an output        // Blinking Indicator
  
  SREG = 128;                                   // Global Interrupt Enable
  
  TCCR0A = 0;
  TIMSK0 = 0;                             

  //ADMUX |= (1 << REFS0);                      // Set ADC reference to AVCC
  ADMUX |= (1 << ADLAR);                        // Left Adjust the result 
  ADCSRA |= (1 << ADEN);                        // Enable ADC
  ADCSRA |= (1 << ADIE);                        // Enable ADC Interrupt
  ADCSRA |= (1 << ADSC);                        // Start A2D Conversions  
    

  // PWM Configuration
  // Pag 78 Datasheet, Table 11.3 - Fast PWM (32KHz)
  // OCOA/PB0 - Non Inverting Mode, Clear on Compare match, Set on Bottom
  // OC0B/PB1 - Disconnected, Normal I/O operation (This is toggled by software inside the COMPB Interrupt)
  
  /* The overflow flag is used by the damm arduino compiler, so without changing registers
  and going crazy we can use hardware PWM as alternative to create a fixed frequency sq wave*/  
  OCR0A = 128;                 // Set Duty cycle = 50%
                               // This is a 73.42 Hz signal to enable the EPAS (AKA Engine Running)
  
  TCCR0B |= 1<<CS01 | 1<<CS00 | 1<<FOC0A;  // Prescaller = 64, therefore clock = 73.24Hz/2 = 36.62Hz
  
  _delay_ms(4000);  // Wait 4 seconds for the DC-DC Converter to boot up and voltages stabilize.
  
  // Enable the EPAS, by turning the PWM square wave signal output on.
  TCCR0A |= 1<<COM0A0 | 0<<COM0B0 | 0<<WGM00;  // SET WGM00 FOR OPERATING MODE. 0 = NORMAL, 3 = FAST PWM, ETC    
  // output = 1;                  // Wait for voltages to stabilize before enabling the EPAS  
  TIMSK0 |= (1 << OCIE0B);                      // Enable COMPB Interrupt
}

// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

// the loop function runs over and over again forever
void loop() 
{
}

// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISR(ADC_vect) 
{  
  // Select ADC3 (PB3) - Pag 135 Datasheet
  // Let Justify the result (8bit reading)
  ADMUX = (1 << MUX0)|(1 << ADLAR);

  /* HOW THE FREQUENCIES ARE CALCULATED:
         CLKDIV8 FUSE = ENABLED
         DEFAULT PRESCALLER = 64 <-> 9600000/8/64/256 = 73.24Hz
         OUTPUT toggled on each cycle, therefore 73/2 = 36.62Hz
         The 8 bit ADC reading is shifted once, giving rise to a 0 to 127 read.
         
         Chose the minimun frequency value = 170
         9600000/8/64/170/2 = 55.14Hz
         
         Choose the maximun frequency value = 170-127 = 43
         9600000/8/64/43/2 = 218Hz
   */
  adc = (170-(ADCH>>1));     
  ADCSRA |= (1 << ADSC);     // Start A2D Conversions 
}

                             
ISR(TIM0_COMPB_vect)
{
  // Togle Pin 
  PINB |= _BV(PORTB1);       // This is the speed signal for the EPAS, to set assit power level
  OCR0B = (OCR0B+adc);
  
  //Set up a non blocking delay
  i++;
  if (i>255)
    {
      PINB |= _BV(PORTB4);   // Blink a LED to indicate operation   
      i=0;  
    }
}
```


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

There are many advantages to move outside an urban center, including the fact I can now charge the car at home, conveniently.

The 1.5KW charger is not an issue anymore, and charging during off-peak period from any available 13A socket costs pennies.

The only issue here is whenever the 35 miles on the tank are just not quite enough and with most driving being motorway or equivalent, they go quick!

80% of the cases one has to make a de-route of at least 10 miles to charge and the 4 charges required to travel 116 miles, for example, turn into 6, with a total just above 150 Miles. Quite frequently I also had to pay to charge in private car parks, despite being a member (and paying already) for the charging scheme.

The local charge point company https://www.chargemasterplc.com/
has done an absolutely fantastic job in convincing me to use the diesel car instead. The 3 charge points within a 30 mile radius are often unusable, the phone app doesn't work as it should and now they charge £1,20 for charge where most charge units have a 2H park restriction. Hum... Now petrol starts to make sense, specially because I dont want to pay full insurance for a car and have a need a second.

Anyway... Back in summer 2013 I actually bough a generator, but the plans to install it were scrapped...


















This unit is a variable speed, variable frequency generator, capable of supplying 3KW with a typical rectifier PF of 0.7. 

Charging is as simple as controlling the alternator field, which even leaves the charger free if I need to plug to an AC supply to top up at 4.5KW, for example, where timing restrictions apply or I want to make a long journey in a reasonable amount of time. Ah... the wonders of an hybrid 

Here's a video of the thing actually working:






I should start this work in late January


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

The generator video doesn't work. Youtube says it's "private".

I'm designing the ability to use a generator in to my conversion as well. I'm expecting it'll either take the form of a trailer or (if it's light enough) mount to the back of the car on a tow hitch. It would only be installed for long trips.

The steering failure is terrifying! I would have expected that steering columns would be designed to work indefinitely if the power steering fails.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> The generator video doesn't work. Youtube says it's "private".
> 
> I'm designing the ability to use a generator in to my conversion as well. I'm expecting it'll either take the form of a trailer or (if it's light enough) mount to the back of the car on a tow hitch. It would only be installed for long trips.
> 
> The steering failure is terrifying! I would have expected that steering columns would be designed to work indefinitely if the power steering fails.


Fixed the video 

The good thing is that if failed progressively. I started noticing the steering slipping at certain angles on the last 80 miles. Hopefully serves as a warning to always double re-evaluate what is already there when making modifications.

That's a good idea, if only I had the tow bar I would be doing one myself with a cheap small car engine.
A three phase alternator is a must, it can provide near DC output and be started from the battery pack. I'm still working on that for this one.


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## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

As promised, I started to perform the tests with the generator.

Nearly 3 years later I had to do a full service, the carburetor was full of rubbish and the engine stalled randomly. I also got a bad arm from pulling the cord. That's a 200cc engine with a PM alternator! I am happy to say that it now idles fine and can feed a 600W load with a DC output of 250V. Very silent too (well, at that power, at least!)

But, as always, this did not came without another new set of problems.

Much to my surprise the alternator is a permanent magnet type. So in practice, the only way to regulate the output voltage is either by loading it or changing the engine speed using the throttle, which is far too slow to avoid some 500V peaks when a load is suddenly removed.

Since DC doesn't have the dead times associated with a sinusoidal supply the charger output nearly doubles for the same input current. So for the time being the thing simply stalls the motor or makes it run very unhappily.

So the solution is to reduce the peak current rating, as to get the same 1500W with the higher average voltage. Problem is, this will reduce the charge rate from a 230VAC supply, so I'm investigating the easiest way to have both...

The cool thing about this is that once the optimum current is set, I can simply vary the engine speed to obtain more or less charge current. So I can bump it to at least 2KW or I can idle it at 500W, as required.


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