# Starting new build: BMW 3-series (E46) - high-performance electric



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hey! be careful.

You don't have enough battery power because your voltage is too low!

800 x 0.0009 = 0.72 - 3.2 = 2.5v x 90 = 225v.
800A x 225v = 180Kw from cells and roughly 200 hp at motor shaft....... so, not enought!

You probably need at least 250 hp....


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Yabert said:


> Hey! be careful.
> 
> You don't have enough battery power because your voltage is too low!
> 
> ...


Thanks Yabert! I was thinking of going to 100 cells which would take care of that. But then again, 
1. pure hp rating matters more for top speed than acceleration
2. My latest shipment of CALB cells lists 0.3-0.5 mOhm IR (each cell is tested separately). So the sag should be lower (at least on new cells).

V


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Excellent news! Calb 100Ah at 0.5 mhom... seem awesome!



valerun said:


> pure hp rating matters more for top speed than acceleration


It's barely true, because a different gear ratio can give the advantage. An high torque isn't enought alone, you need to keep this high torque to high RPM to have a powerful car.
It's why higher voltage is important. 

Especialy because having a good torque at high speed can give you the important advantage of having a single Kostov motor to acheive your goal performance instead having two engines that provide more torque, but lower rpm and roughly same power.
96 or 100 cells seem really good to acheive your goal... 270v x 800A = 216 Kw.

After all, If Crodriver managed to generate 500hp from its Warp 11 HV, I do not see why a Kostov 11 250v could not produce 250-300 hp at lower amps. 

Good luck..., your car will be awesome. I can not wait to see him finish.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

sounds like a fun build, for the power level you are looking for you might want to look into higher power density cells to shed some weight unless you need it all for the range you are looking for. Headway/A123 etc.

I really like your display ideas, nothing like taking a step towards a Tesla model S and away from an obvious garage creation.

I kind of like the idea of a higher end automatic, I know the transmission in my G35 shifts faster than a stick, and it doesn't have the typical automatic lag. The only thing I'd complain about is it's always in the wrong gear, but with the wider power band of an electric it would be much easier to keep it in the right gear.

Using the idle feature in the Soliton1 has been very helpful while setting up my belt driven A/C even though the car is a manual.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

rwaudio said:


> I really like your display ideas, nothing like taking a step towards a Tesla model S and away from an obvious garage creation.


thanks rwaudio. I have started a separate thread on this at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246075#post246075 - please post any comments / suggestions you might have!

V


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

you'll probably beat the build time on the ranger, Let me know how the kostov works out.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

80 100AH CALB cells are in! Another copy of our 10kW charger is built and tested on the pack - ready to go!

ICE coming out this weekend (I hope). Will post pics soon.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> you'll probably beat the build time on the ranger, Let me know how the kostov works out.


Kostov was great on my Fiat. Plenty of power. Couple of notes though:
1. You need a high-voltage pack for it. Seems like a very obvious need but for some reason did not get through to me initially so I was running a 250V motor with a 192V pack and it didn't work very well. 256V nominal is getting there.
2. Pros say that you can't overload Kostovs for as long as NetGains (lower thermal mass) but that is likely to be relevant only for racing.

I still can't get over the fact that you can get dual Kostovs for less than 2 motors bought separately!! ;-) Direct drive with dual 11" in series on a 340V pack and 1000A controller, anyone? 1800lbs (0.5G) push at the wheels from 0 to 70-80mph? mmm... ;-)

V


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> Kostov was great on my Fiat. Plenty of power. Couple of notes though:
> 1. You need a high-voltage pack for it. Seems like a very obvious need but for some reason did not get through to me initially so I was running a 250V motor with a 192V pack and it didn't work very well. 256V nominal is getting there.
> 2. Pros say that you can't overload Kostovs for as long as NetGains (lower thermal mass) but that is likely to be relevant only for racing.
> 
> ...


yes please!

I want to do a similar conversion as you maybe into a newer E92 or a porsche 911... very excited for your results, good luck!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Hey! be careful.
> 
> You don't have enough battery power because your voltage is too low!
> 
> ...


The conversion from kw to hp seems low in your calculation....

180kw / 0.745 = 242hp


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> The conversion from kw to hp seems low in your calculation....
> 
> 180kw / 0.745 = 242hp


I think Y meant mechanical hp - after taking into account ~80% motor & drivetrain efficiency...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi Guys, 

still musing over the details of this conversion. 

Narrowing down the DC motor choice to Warp11HV mated with 340V CALB pack. It just have to have a big DC motor to provide the power we need.

However, we are going to do some long-range demo drives in this car and every bit of efficiency counts so I was thinking of adding something like an AC50 system to the big DC motor. AC50 would then soak up braking / downhill and provide most of the 'baseline' load on freeway etc. Being AC and therefore more efficient, it should further add to the economy.

What do you guys think? Has anyone done it before? Any links / pointers?

Thanks,
Valery.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Several of the 914 ev guys use ACXX motors, you could do a search at http://groups.google.com/group/914ev .


valerun said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> still musing over the details of this conversion.
> 
> ...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Several of the 914 ev guys use ACXX motors, you could do a search at http://groups.google.com/group/914ev .


Thanks David. Do you know if anyone did it in a DC-AC hybrid mode, though? AC50 by itself will barely make a 3500lbs BMW move (well, in my frame of reference, anyway ;-)


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Do you only compare the coplete efficiency of the AC50 vs WarpHV????

DC = 99% controller efficiency x 87-88% motor = 87% efficient than seem good to me....

What about AC50?.... 94% x 92% = 87%???????

My final advice: Put a bit more cells. They costing less and they weighting less than an AC50 systems!!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Yabert said:


> My final advice: Put a bit more cells. They costing less and they weighting less than an AC50 systems!!


good point. 150lbs of cells are ~20 miles of range, after all...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> good point. 150lbs of cells are ~20 miles of range, after all...


90 Calb 100AH cells (288V nom * 100AH = 28.8kw)

you will definitely not be needing more than 28kwh to achieve 100 mile range @ city speeds...

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/articles/hybridizing_dc_system.html

The article above points out that the average car only needs 5kw to cruise @ 40mph (city speeds). So a 100 mile distance @ 40mph requires 12.5kwh


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evconsultinginc.com/articles/hybridizing_dc_system.html
> 
> The article above points out that the average car only needs 5kw to cruise @ 40mph (city speeds). So a 100 mile distance @ 40mph requires 12.5kwh


Hi Bowser, 

this would be awesome. However, I think these guys either missing some power loss contributions or talking about purely mechanical power or using really streamlined / lightweight car example or all of the above. I've used formulas from the book 'Build your own electric car' before and am coming out at 27hp required for a 3500lb BMW to move at 60mph (as opposed to 15hp that these guys quote). My calculation gives me ~330 Wh/mile which is in the right ballpark for 60 mph. 

This gets me the range of just shy of 100 miles at 60 mph. At 40 mph, it's 140 miles or 40% higher.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok guys! FINALLY some good stuff to look at ;-)

$1K in the friendly shop gives you an EV-ready beemer! Engine, radiator, gas tank and exhaust systems are out

design work is starting today. Everything in CAD to be replicable for our E46 kits.

V


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Do you know how much weight was removed all together, or will you wait to weigh it when the build it complete?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Do you know how much weight was removed all together, or will you wait to weigh it when the build it complete?


didn't weigh it but according to the published specs on parts, about 600lbs. Also, 16 gallons of gas will not be there, or another 100lbs. Finally, will be removing spare wheel and a 12V battery, or another 100lbs. So total -800lbs, give or take. 

The original empty weight was ~3300lbs. So we are looking at ~2600lbs starting weight for conversion.

EV stuff:
1. Motor+controller+mounts: 300lbs
2. 100 100AH cells with boxes and mounts: 750lbs
3. Accessory drives etc: 50lbs. 

So I am expecting to gain ~300lbs or ~10% of the original weight.

V


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> didn't weigh it but according to the published specs on parts, about 600lbs. Also, 16 gallons of gas will not be there, or another 100lbs. Finally, will be removing spare wheel and a 12V battery, or another 100lbs. So total -800lbs, give or take.
> 
> The original empty weight was ~3300lbs. So we are looking at ~2600lbs starting weight for conversion.
> 
> ...


NICE, 3600lbs is what the new 3-series weighs anyway, so that seems very reasonable


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> NICE, 3600lbs is what the new 3-series weighs anyway, so that seems very reasonable


yeah. my '09 335xi is 3850...


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Valerun,

this is good info. I am intrigued by your remark "according to the published specs on parts".

I have never been able to find reliable weight info for parts/components. Can you give a hint on where this data is available?

Thanks a lot!


Huub



valerun said:


> didn't weigh it but according to the published specs on parts, about 600lbs. Also, 16 gallons of gas will not be there, or another 100lbs. Finally, will be removing spare wheel and a 12V battery, or another 100lbs. So total -800lbs, give or take.
> 
> The original empty weight was ~3300lbs. So we are looking at ~2600lbs starting weight for conversion.
> 
> ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Now i know why you need that 1000amp controller  100 cells is about 320v nominal. Have you plans for a boost type charger?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Now i know why you need that 1000amp controller  100 cells is about 320v nominal. Have you plans for a boost type charger?


Hi Damien - nice to see you here ;-) check out http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=249779#post249779 for the charger update - got a 10kW PFC stage working. Produces 390V output so good for any battery voltage. In fact, If one uses 1200V IGBT part, one can boost to pretty much any voltage likely ever encountered in an EV.

The buck charger we all built then connects to this PFC stage (with all the AC input stuff (bridges / caps, etc) removed. 

Total parts cost is ~$130. The toughest part was to find a PFC IC that would work at IGBT-compatible frequency (using 22kHz now - seems to work with a 200A half-bridge module I got from ebay - $20 in quantities of 10+).

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Now i know why you need that 1000amp controller  100 cells is about 320v nominal. Have you plans for a boost type charger?


Actually, I am hoping for 1500A controller ;-)) or, with dual motor setup, working up to 600V (2 11" Kostovs 250V motors in series)... Got to get that car moving!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> Actually, I am hoping for 1500A controller ;-)) or, with dual motor setup, working up to 600V (2 11" Kostovs 250V motors in series)... Got to get that car moving!


youre making your own controller right?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> youre making your own controller right?


that's right. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/another-diy-dc-controller-mock-60262.html. Using $40 1200V 600A IGBTs from ebay (4 of them already got me to 1200A from 265VDC battery (at ~30kW as I am using a stationary inductor as a load - quite close to the actual motor load, only no EMF...).


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

some more fun pics.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Looking good!
Question - will it not be better to cut out the spare wheel well to a square shape for easier packaging?

Dawid


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

DawidvC said:


> Looking good!
> Question - will it not be better to cut out the spare wheel well to a square shape for easier packaging?
> 
> Dawid


Thanks Dawid - the idea was to minimize the effort. As we are hoping to do this for many more E46s, minimization of effort is important. And we were able to fit the target number of batteries (27 exactly - for the total of 100 in a car)


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

very cool, very excited for your build


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> very cool, very excited for your build


Thanks Bowser! 

Do you guys have any ideas for the way to construct battery boxes? Of course, we can just weld them from sheet steel and paint but to be sturdy enough (we have up to 300lbs of batteries per box), they would have to be made out of 14 gauge steel or something like that. That would make them weigh 60-80 lbs each! Not exactly optimal... 

We thought of building a cage from 1/8" thick, 2"-wide steel strips. Another option is to do custom fiberglass or carbon fiber box. The latter, while cool, has a problem of being less replicable in quantity

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Valery.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

You can build your battery box with aluminum sheet and only add steel reinforcement where it's necessary. 
Under the pack to support weight and maybe at some other place to add strenght or protection.

And don't forget, aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel... so 9 Ga aluminum will be two time lighter than 14 Ga steel.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok settled on fiberglass for battery boxes - see the pic for what 12 layers of fiberglass fabric can do (total thickness of 0.2 inches) ;-) Awesome forming capabilities, too.

For motor mount, die-cast aluminum. Will post some pics soon. 

the biggest unknown right now is the motor controller. with 288V nominal motor, I'd like to have at least a 400V pack - so when it sags by 0.5-0.7V/cell at 1000A, I still have full 300V at the motor... 

V


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Manzanita Micro is selling the Zilla 1K HV model, which in its description says:



> Absolute maximum fully loaded input voltage range: 36 to 400 volts


Cost = $2,675 USD

So I guess with 3.6V as the fully loaded voltage on a calb battery that would mean 111 batteries in series, = 399.6V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Manzanita Micro is selling the Zilla 1K HV model, which in its description says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow Bowser - this is cool - that really happened (Manzanita selling Zillas)! Z2K EHV available, too. $5K but hey, it's 640kW! ;-0

I think 1000A will not be sufficient for our purposes so the only commercially available option right now is Z2K EHV. Good chunk of change, though. Something to think about...

V


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So, 111 cells = 400V-max & 355V-nom

If the cells Voltage sags 20% @ 1000A draw then that's 284V.

284V*1000A = 284KW = 381HP 

284V should also allow for the peak power to be pushed out in the 4-5000rpm range.

Are you sure that's not enough? That's a lot of peak power!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> So, 111 cells = 400V-max & 355V-nom
> 
> If the cells Voltage sags 20% @ 1000A draw then that's 284V.
> 
> ...


Power-wise it's probably fine. What we are also after, though, is 0-60. In fact, some of the events we want to participate in, <5 sec 0-60 is a qualifying requirement... 

So, say, if we had a 2000A controller (and a tranny that could handle the torque), we could do the entire 0-60 run in 3rd gear for ~4-sec 0-60...

Shifting gears kills as much as 0.3-0.5 sec. 

Our calculations suggest that we need at least 1400A controller to comfortably get sub-5 sec 0-60.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Four of those nice new 600A igbts should do the trick


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Damn i am excited for your 3-series conversion results!

You don't always need a lot of torque for fast 0-60 acceleration, look at the E46 M3, people were doing 0-60mph in 4.8/4.9 sec stock from...

333hp @ 7900rpm
262ftlbs @ 4900rpm

With a Warp11-HV motor, Crodriver was able to apply 1000A to the motor @ a little over 5000rpm...

380hp @ 5100rpm (284V & 1000A = 284kw = 380hp)
300ftlbs @ 0-5100rpm (1000A in an 11" motor)

With the right gearing you should be able to hit 0-60 in sub 5...no?

Have you timed your Fiat conversion from 0-60? 
Is it 2200lbs after conversion?
I saw the videos with the burnouts, have you tried to turn down the slew rate and put some tires with more grip on the back? I wonder how fast it could launch 0-60 if more power stuck to the ground?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Four of those nice new 600A igbts should do the trick


oh yes ;-) I love the fact they have all the driver circuitry in them already. the only concern i have is not being able to fit emitter resistors for load equalization... Have you thought about that at all?

EDIT: just thought up another potential issue: they are 600V modules so I can't really go above ~400V on the battery side. So might be those $500 1200V 1800A module time, after all ;-))

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> 380hp @ 5100rpm (284V & 1000A = 284kw = 380hp)
> 300ftlbs @ 0-5100rpm (1000A in an 11" motor)
> 
> With the right gearing you should be able to hit 0-60 in sub 5...no?
> ...


with 284kW electric it will be more like 300hp at the wheels, if that - these motors are not that efficient at these power levels. 300 rwhp would barely get it under 5s. My 2009 335 is a 300hp stock rated at 4.9s...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> with 284kW electric it will be more like 300hp at the wheels, if that - these motors are not that efficient at these power levels. 300 rwhp would barely get it under 5s. My 2009 335 is a 300hp stock rated at 4.9s...


I have a 335i too  (with a JB4 tune ) 
300hp is stock, correct, but its only 270whp...

Nevertheless I would rather see you go Z2K-EHV or build your own High Voltage Controller as it would be closer to my future build specs...

If you want ultimate performance you should go dual motor... Am i correct to assume the dual/siamese warp9's can only tolerate the high voltage in parallel mode (whole voltage, half amperage) for the last leg of the 1/4 mile?...and that normally people daily drive the motors in series mode (half voltage, whole amperage) to keep the motors from arcing from too high of a voltage?

What would be great is if there were Warp9HV's developed that then could siamesed, and could run on low or high voltage, so you could drive around with them in parallel mode and only switch to series mode if you want to drag race...I wonder if the K-9's can be built to be as strong as the Warp series motors?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> I have a 335i too  (with a JB4 tune )


Soooo funny - I have a JB3 and just got JB4 upgrade in the mail ;-)) Too funny. So with 100 unleaded it's more like 400hp. Feels nice. So now you know what kind of performance I am looking forward to beat with this conversion ;-)



Bowser330 said:


> Nevertheless I would rather see you go Z2K-EHV or build your own High Voltage Controller as it would be closer to my future build specs...
> 
> If you want ultimate performance you should go dual motor... Am i correct to assume the dual/siamese warp9's can only tolerate the high voltage in parallel mode (whole voltage, half amperage) for the last leg of the 1/4 mile?...and that normally people daily drive the motors in series mode (half voltage, whole amperage) to keep the motors from arcing from too high of a voltage?


Don't know about the W9 but we were discussing here with my team the possibility to use dual K11s - the factory can build a dual motor for the same price as 2 separate motors. In series, they are *rated* at 240V*2 = 480V. I am running K11 in a Fiat now with (already) a 285V nominal pack with no prob. So I expect to be able to use a 600V pack with dual motors. Then I can also finally skip the tranny altogether as dual K11 produce 550 ft*lbs at 1000A. Run with the custom LSD with something like 3.3 ratio at 1500 would give me ~2600lbs propelling a 3500lb car for ~3.7-4.0s 0-60 and 130mph top end


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> Soooo funny - I have a JB3 and just got JB4 upgrade in the mail ;-)) Too funny. So with 100 unleaded it's more like 400hp. Feels nice. So now you know what kind of performance I am looking forward to beat with this conversion ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know about the W9 but we were discussing here with my team the possibility to use dual K11s - the factory can build a dual motor for the same price as 2 separate motors. In series, they are *rated* at 240V*2 = 480V. I am running K11 in a Fiat now with (already) a 285V nominal pack with no prob. So I expect to be able to use a 600V pack with dual motors. Then I can also finally skip the tranny altogether as dual K11 produce 550 ft*lbs at 1000A. Run with the custom LSD with something like 3.3 ratio at 1500 would give me ~2600lbs propelling a 3500lb car for ~3.7-4.0s 0-60 and 130mph top end


what sort of peak rpm does the 285V allow you with the K11"? Asked another way, when do you feel the power begin to taper off? closer to 4-5000rpm? If so, it must make driving it feel much more "normal" than an EV that peaks at 2-3000rpm e.g. with lower voltage...

600V?! but what controller will allow that? your custom one?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> what sort of peak rpm does the 285V allow you with the K11"? Asked another way, when do you feel the power begin to taper off? closer to 4-5000rpm? If so, it must make driving it feel much more "normal" than an EV that peaks at 2-3000rpm e.g. with lower voltage...
> 
> 600V?! but what controller will allow that? your custom one?


I'd still say peak power around 4000-4500rpm. Even then, freeway acceleration in 4th is a joy ;-)) 

I feel it really wants 10 more cells ;-) but then it's a never-ending story ;-) Time to concentrate on a BMW. 

600V controller - yes, that's the plan (or at least an ambition to try ;-) After all, we got to 1200A motor output on 300V battery already - with voltage overshoots controlled to below 100V without any serious snubbing effort. So with 1200V parts and optimal layout I don't see the reason for not being able to do a 600V controller... Funny part is that mundane stuff like input caps etc become quite tricky at above 450VDC. They just don't sell that stuff on digikey... And running caps in series is suboptimal for layout. And film caps are prone to ringing... My guess is we will start with 400VDC pack on 11HV and will try to get to 1500A at lower voltages tapering to 1000A at 300V. Right now the biggest unresolved issue with our controller is PID loop tuning...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> I'd still say peak power around 4000-4500rpm. Even then, freeway acceleration in 4th is a joy ;-))
> 
> I feel it really wants 10 more cells ;-) but then it's a never-ending story ;-) Time to concentrate on a BMW.
> 
> 600V controller - yes, that's the plan (or at least an ambition to try ;-) After all, we got to 1200A motor output on 300V battery already - with voltage overshoots controlled to below 100V without any serious snubbing effort. So with 1200V parts and optimal layout I don't see the reason for not being able to do a 600V controller... Funny part is that mundane stuff like input caps etc become quite tricky at above 450VDC. They just don't sell that stuff on digikey... And running caps in series is suboptimal for layout. And film caps are prone to ringing... My guess is we will start with 400VDC pack on 11HV and will try to get to 1500A at lower voltages tapering to 1000A at 300V. Right now the biggest unresolved issue with our controller is PID loop tuning...


4-4500rpm peak with 284V nom, so with 355V nom it should be even higher!

I wish I could understand more about your controller but a lot of the wording a still a bit over my head. Good luck on it! in the meantime, while you build the controller, are you considering getting a Zilla 2K EHV?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

quick update - motor mounts, battery boxes.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

driving back from LA with 150 cells of 100AH CALB batteries - 2 lucky e46 prototype cars waiting back home... ;-)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

BTW our target performance parameters just got upgraded to 
*0-60 in 5 sec or less
* 125 mph top speed

Reason - to be able to participate in PrototypeEV class races at EVcup this November (Laguna Seca, Monterey, CA)


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

valerun said:


> Reason - to be able to participate in PrototypeEV class races at EVcup this November (Laguna Seca, Monterey, CA)


As far as I know, the EV cup is canceled for this year.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> As far as I know, the EV cup is canceled for this year.


They are moving the launch to California - at least that's what Rebecca Smyth says (their front person for the US launch). Also, Nov 26th is on their site as launch date on a road race track here in Monterey, CA. A bit controversial choice of date given that it's right in the middle of Thanksgiving weekend here in the US and that's the biggest travel weekend in the whole year so a lot of local Bay Area residents will be away...

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

need some creative solutions how to bottom-balance 200 100AH cells in relatively short time (say, 2 days). They are 60% charged, so ~36kWhrs to burn... All in boxes so can't really 'drive' them down in a car...

Ideas?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

About the only thing I could think of would be to wire them up to 240v and run some large heaters but i'm sure you've already thought of that


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

quick update after 3-day marathon. Team is pretty exhausted now (I think I heard a couple of people say something like "oh, it's good tomorrow's Monday, I'm going to rest at work" or something to that effect).

Couple of pics for your guys.

V. 

PS. The thing is sitting a bit low in front now - might have to think about relocating a few cells to the back. Right now, 71 cells in front (~550lbs with all the mounting hardware, 27 in the back. Motor is 11HV at 220lbs + 30 lbs mounting stuff. So total of ~800lbs in the front. BMW 3-liter inline 6 + radiator stuff + all the pumps etc were around 700lbs total. Metal hood is out in favor of carbon fiber so another 40-50lbs savings. overall, maybe 50-100lbs over stock in front. I wouldn't think it should matter much but car seems to sit lower. maybe it's just me getting used to the car sitting high without engine... ;-)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

A Harbor Freight Battery tester is about $50. You could run at 3C 4 batteries at a time until you got close, and then 3C on individual batteries. If they are 1/2 full it would take about 10 hours.

You'll want to tip the tester back about 45 degrees and blow a fan at the base to cool it, it'll get hot enough to ruin it otherwise.


valerun said:


> need some creative solutions how to bottom-balance 200 100AH cells in relatively short time (say, 2 days). They are 60% charged, so ~36kWhrs to burn... All in boxes so can't really 'drive' them down in a car...
> 
> Ideas?


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That is one serious looking beemer! I can't let mine see it or it will get jealous 

Regards the front end being down. I had this problem when i had 2 agms in a rack between the front chassis rails. Bout 150lbs.


----------



## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey V,

GREAT PICS... THANK YOU. 

-Y.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

FINALLY!

Our first BMW prototype was introduced at the EV Rally this Saturday!

Quick summary:
* 11HV
* Soliton1
* 96 100AH cells for ~310V nominal

A bunch of pics from the event below.

Enjoy ;-)

V


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow, looks really good.
Did you reach your desired performance?
The e46 convertible is on the list of my potential future conversions.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Really nice!!

I like your front battery pack. How is the trunk?
Video, video....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> FINALLY!
> 
> Our first BMW prototype was introduced at the EV Rally this Saturday!
> 
> ...


Congratulations, so many questions! 

Final weight?
Acceleration?
What do you have the max battery amps set to?
With 310V when do you feel the HV's power drop off? 5000rpm?
Do you plan to Dyno the car?
Transmission? Stock BMW manual?


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Thanks Guys!

3600lbs. 

Acceleration early to measure - (1) we had to swap our higher-amps controller for Soliton1 as ours is not nearly as pretty and we need pretty for the car show ;-), and (2) our clutch started slipping ;-)

Max battery at 900A. They are rated for 800A so should be fine. 900A because this is the max we can get from Soliton1 when the pack is above 310V.

we will dyno once we put something more powerful than S1 into it.

it's a stock BMW tranny.

now focusing on range measurements and optimizing efficiency. With those bloody 245/40R17 performance tires, it's a bit tricky ;-)))


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

valerun said:


> Thanks Guys!
> 
> 3600lbs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply.

It might be worth dyno-ing the car to develop a baseline...just a thought, I know its not free...


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

valerun said:


> Thanks Guys!
> 
> Max battery at 900A. They are rated for 800A so should be fine. 900A because this is the max we can get from Soliton1 when the pack is above 310V.


From memory I believe in the Soliton customer thread, it was explained that the 900 amp limit on > 310 pack voltage is removed under voltage sag, so if this is true you should be able to get your 1000 battery amps at higher rpms?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> From memory I believe in the Soliton customer thread, it was explained that the 900 amp limit on > 310 pack voltage is removed under voltage sag, so if this is true you should be able to get your 1000 battery amps at higher rpms?


Hm, you might be right ;-) Will put it back to 1000A


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> It might be worth dyno-ing the car to develop a baseline...just a thought, I know its not free...


cost is not the issue. Want to fix the clutch situation first. Otherwise no point to dyno - I can slip the thing with Soliton1 at half throttle now...

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok clutch replaced. This thing is fast - definitely faster than the stock 330. But not fast enough. For one, I cannot spin the wheels in second. Which means that I get max possible acceleration only up until ~30mph (limit of the 1st gear). We really need that 2000A controller...


----------



## zdoctor (Oct 22, 2008)

Hi Valerun,

Can you explain why you went with the warp11 instead of the kostov?


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

zdoctor said:


> Hi Valerun,
> 
> Can you explain why you went with the warp11 instead of the kostov?


1. Comments from a few experts
2. Needed the largest motor we could find (to maximize overload capability). 
3. I met George and a few people from his management in person and I feel more confident that they will take care of any problems should the arise
4. Netgain is local (US) which means faster shipment, more secure supply for our future conversions, and faster resolution of any issues.

Hope this helps.

PS. Disclaimer - my company is a reseller for both Kostov and Netgain

V.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

ok a bit more details and pics for you guys.

* topped up the pack to 98 cells. Charger does 343VDC CV cutoff at 30A now - pretty cool - we actually had a couple of days of 150+ miles on the EV (recharging in 2-3 hours between trips).

* We seem to be burning ~350Wh/mile on average. 225/45/17 wheels... Race seats and some more carbon fiber on order - hope to drop another 100 lbs or so.

* Still haven't measured acceleration but people I gave rides to claim it feels similar to their under-5-seconds cars... Will see. 

Overall, I am happy but would be nice to get a bit more efficiency out of the thing... Or just more juice in the batteries. Some exciting news on that front coming up soon...

Some photos from our latest photoshoot.

We are now on to building another e46 prototype just like this one but with all the parts CNC'ed based on all-CAD designs.

V.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

V, 
WOW, Great Job....
-Y.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

The car looks amazing. Top notch job, really.

Will you be offering conversion kits, since you will have cnc'd parts, for people that want to convert their E46?

Have you tried comparing the acceleration (0-60) of starting in 1st gear vs. 2nd gear, I only ask because of the fact that you have instant torque from 0rpm, then you might not need as much torque multiplication and that could save you the time it takes to shift the car from 1st to 2nd....


----------



## TwistedDSMer (Aug 7, 2011)

How's the turn in response with that much weight forward of the front wheels? Also, have you put the car on a scale capiable of measuring weight at each wheel to see what the weight distrobution is like on the car now?

Did you ever get the controller finished and installed? What clutch did you replace the factory slipping unit with? Why haven't you taken it the the drag strip yet!? How's the trans taking the low end torque? Hows the trans shifting now?

Any idea for a target price for the conversion?



Sorry about playing 100 questions, just curious.


----------



## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Awesome stuff Val, looks great!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

long time no update.

We just did a major PR stint at the Plug-in America event in SF area, giving test rides to the public, explaining our offerings, etc. A couple of people told us that we are as fast as Tesla (Roadster). That was fun. ;-) 

Getting ready to release our EV Dash application and hardware (customized units made by CleanPowerAuto - the makers of EV Display and mini-BMS). See some pics attached. See more info in dedicated thread at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-flavors-ev-display-63265.html

Some observations from 2,000 miles in the EMW-1:
1. 11HV really needs more voltage. 97 LiFePo4 cells are really not enough. The pack sags to 250V at 800A. This is below rated 288V for 11HV. Never good to go below the rated voltage ;-). So we need at least 120 cells. Problem is, Soliton1 faults out at 342V. So my conclusion is that Solitons are really not an optimal match to 11HV. You need a 400V capable controller to fully utilize the potential.
2. That said, we are clocking at 5.5-5.9 seconds 0-60 in this car which is not bad at all.
3. Our energy use tends to be at 350-450WH/mile on average. Note that our definition of 'freeway speed' is 80mph (not 60mph that seems to be the EV consensus LOL), and we tend to use the available power off the line, etc. Just like the real BMW owners would use these cars (an opposite of a stereotypical energy-saving nut - no offence to such but not our target market)
4. So we are getting ~80 miles off our 33-34 kWhrs pack. A bit disappointing considering the weight (700lbs) but I did not yet have a single case of range anxiety. Perhaps having a 20kW charging system in our garage helps... ;-)

More later.

V


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

I've being following your progress for a while now. Just a couple of suggestions I suppose you've already looked into.

1. Headway cells (the 8 or 10ah) cells will give you less sag but a much more complex pack to build. But you could sell the pack pre-assembled?
2. Look into gearing to improve the 0-60 time? I'd love to see some dyno charts in the different gears. It's hard to find such data. EVTV did a recent dyno on the warp 11hv but they were running only 220v before sagging to 170v so the torque band was very small. Still they (lighter car?) were doing similar times using warpdrive @ 1300 amps (41 kWh pack I think).
3. At 80 mph any aero improvements would pay dividends. Belly pan and grill block can be done unobtrusively. 
4. I'd advertise range at 55 mph so to be comparable to other EV's like Leaf so as not to put off potential customers. Marketing beats absolute truth.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> I've being following your progress for a while now. Just a couple of suggestions I suppose you've already looked into.
> 
> 1. Headway cells (the 8 or 10ah) cells will give you less sag but a much more complex pack to build. But you could sell the pack pre-assembled?
> 2. Look into gearing to improve the 0-60 time? I'd love to see some dyno charts in the different gears. It's hard to find such data. EVTV did a recent dyno on the warp 11hv but they were running only 220v before sagging to 170v so the torque band was very small. Still they (lighter car?) were doing similar times using warpdrive @ 1300 amps (41 kWh pack I think).
> ...


Thanks drgrieve! We have looked into some of these but not all. Specifically:
1. Yes, headways are fun but you are spot on about complexity. One more thing: round cells are not good use of space.
2a. Not sure if that would help. We are spinning wheels in the first and sometimes in second already...
2b. We are working on our 1500A 400V-500V controller. A couple of component makers are helping us with bus design etc. Will help get faster 0-60 as we won't need to use the first at all.
3. Good points. We have not implemented yet. We should
4. Yes, of course ;-) I know marketing is more important. But will have to be qualified, of course. (e.g., "120 miles at 55 mph, may vary for more aggressive driving styles", etc.)

V


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Headway cells (the 8 or 10ah) cells will give you less sag but a much more complex pack to build. But you could sell the pack pre-assembled?


Probably not!

Valerun said his 100ah cells have 0.5 mohm. Headway 10ah are rated at less than 6 mohm (5 mohm / 10 cells = 0.5 mohm). And you will probably increase this value by the multiple cells connection.
The 8 ah will increase the weight (12 cells x 0.33 kg = 3.96 kg vs 3.2 kg for single calb 100 ah).




> Yes, headways are fun but you are spot on about complexity. One more thing: round cells are not good use of space.


Well, that depend of the specific energy density. 

1 Calb 100Ah: 2.074 liter and 3.2 Kg
vs
10 Headway 10Ah: 1.950 liter and 3.3 Kg
1.531 liter if you only count the cells (1.950 L is for 10 cells + the empty space between each)

Anyway, awesome job Valerun!
Performance video soon??..


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## Rummel Autosport (Nov 15, 2011)

valerun said:


> 4. Yes, of course ;-) I know marketing is more important. But will have to be qualified, of course. (e.g., "120 miles at 55 mph, may vary for more aggressive driving styles", etc.)
> 
> V


 
Since you are targeting more of a sport minded EV'er that should work perfectly. You are giving what seems to be the standard metric for comparison to other vehicles, but also acknowledging the purpose of the vehicle is not only directed at that use.


On a side note, as I am the owner of a 2000 BMW 328Ci, I would like to know if you still have the 3.0L engine kicking around?

If you are getting rid of it please feel free to toss it my way. I will be doing my EV project on a different car I own and keeping my BMW as an ICE and would love to stick that motor in it.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hmm, Title says "High Performance"....you should be using high performance cells IMO, not the cheaper LifePo4's. If you want LifePo4 then look at A123's, otherwise look at Lipo's like Turnigy or Kokam. A high performance car needs a high performance pack, capable of 10C WITHOUT sagging 20-30% (which represents more losses than the drivetrain and motor innefficiency together).

Steve


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Rummel Autosport said:


> Since you are targeting more of a sport minded EV'er that should work perfectly. You are giving what seems to be the standard metric for comparison to other vehicles, but also acknowledging the purpose of the vehicle is not only directed at that use.
> 
> 
> On a side note, as I am the owner of a 2000 BMW 328Ci, I would like to know if you still have the 3.0L engine kicking around?
> ...


Rummel! You should convert your bimmer, man! ;-)) Will be faster than with a pesky 3.0L... Anyway, 3.0 is sold. We have a 2.5L lying around from the second proto we are building - let me know if interested.

V


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Jozzer said:


> Hmm, Title says "High Performance"....you should be using high performance cells IMO, not the cheaper LifePo4's. If you want LifePo4 then look at A123's, otherwise look at Lipo's like Turnigy or Kokam. A high performance car needs a high performance pack, capable of 10C WITHOUT sagging 20-30% (which represents more losses than the drivetrain and motor innefficiency together).
> 
> Steve


Thanks Steve.

Of course, A123 or Kokams would be nice. 

However, I also need to run a business and keep my pricing down. Otherwise I will sell 10 cars a year. I want to be selling 1000 cars a year in 2-3 years. The battery is already 50% of my cost base. No way I can go with more expensive battery and have a viable volume product.

Prismatics are reasonably good. We are going with a 400V nominal pack in our production cars anyway. That would mean max draw of 6-7C. If not continuous, this is perfectly fine for these cells. And my target customer is not a race nut (there are not a lot of those, either, so targeting those is another losing proposition) but a 'normal' BMW 'spirited' driver who likes to max the engine out off the line, on the on-ramp, in occasional high-speed overtakes on freeways, tire-screeching low-speed overtakes at low speed, etc. None of which requires peak power for more than 5-10 seconds...

V


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Understood, though many startups use high power packs in the prototype vehicle to show full potential. A ex Kokam rep once told me that if all the startups that he'd provided the first pack for had continued to use thier cells instead of going with something cheaper when they hit production, then Kokams would cost less than Thundersky

I was thinking forwards to the day you decide to fit that second motor..

Steve


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

valerun said:


> l
> 1. 11HV really needs more voltage. 97 LiFePo4 cells are really not enough. The pack sags to 250V at 800A.


That's 2.58vpc at 8c, right? That's a pretty deep sag! At what point to you worry that it's too low of voltage,? Or do you not worry if it's only during acceleration induced sag?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

dladd said:


> That's 2.58vpc at 8c, right? That's a pretty deep sag! At what point to you worry that it's too low of voltage,? Or do you not worry if it's only during acceleration induced sag?


yes, significant but tolerable if not continuous. manufacturer says 8C is ok for <10sec at a time so...


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Was wondering which E46 cars you'd be recommending.

Is the coupe possible? 
Manual only or can the steptronic be converted?
I think the 328 and 330 come with a beefier transmission (320nm) over the others which is only rated at 250nm. Does this mean only the 328/330 recommended?


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

Hi drgrieve, I'm valerun's partner in this enterprise ...

Yes, the coup is possible, any E46 is possible. 

You're right, they do have different transmissions, and the beefier the better. But hey, if you happen to find a good deal on a nice good looking 323 convertible you can just buy a transmission on ebay 

We haven't tried converting a step-tronic transmission yet, but I heard it's possible...


Thanks
Henry




drgrieve said:


> Was wondering which E46 cars you'd be recommending.
> 
> Is the coupe possible?
> Manual only or can the steptronic be converted?
> I think the 328 and 330 come with a beefier transmission (320nm) over the others which is only rated at 250nm. Does this mean only the 328/330 recommended?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Was wondering which E46 cars you'd be recommending.
> 
> Is the coupe possible?
> Manual only or can the steptronic be converted?
> I think the 328 and 330 come with a beefier transmission (320nm) over the others which is only rated at 250nm. Does this mean only the 328/330 recommended?


Any E46 would be fine. We will first release the manual transmission version but will quickly follow with automatic version. 

Yes, 328/330 would be a better donor but then again, you can always swap the tranny. That extra cost may actually be more than offset by likely used car price difference between a 325 and a 330 (that is, unless you find a blown engine car).

what kind of performance parameters are you thinking about?

V


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks guys the donor pool in Aus is not large. Having the option of steptronic would triple the field. Tranny swap is also an idea I'll look into for pricing and more options.

I've been looking at donor cars for quite a while. I first was considering a ~2000 Audi 1.8T Quattro (B5) as AWD allows for more torque to be put to the ground but I haven't seen any conversion completed using that as a donor - and the car body is a little dated.

Then I was all on doing a E30 325E as they are lighter weight and smaller and I could build a nice track car without excessive power requirements. The engine in the 325e is RPM limited to 4500 so matches nicely to an electric motor.

But I've fallen in love with the pre-facelift E46 coupe. They are damn sexy even if they are a little piggy. And considering I failed to change my mother in laws tire when it got a flat (there was a spacer on the rim I didn't see so spare wouldn't go on) using a kit would improve my chances of success immensely.

Performance? Well I'd like a lot. My father in law runs a replica cobra with 450 RWHP, and my brother in law built a monster Ford GT with 600 RWHP. They are insanely fun to drive, track and drag but also noisey temperamental smelly beasts that you can't drive every day. They can't really put that much power to the ground anyway - but as much performance as the budget and drivetrain can afford without compromising drivability.

Range? 100 miles would cover 90%. 200 miles 95%. So 100 miles @ 65 mph is my target. Travel distances between main cities in Australia is 1000km (over 600 miles) and ski fields are 500 km (over 300 miles) so not practical for EV currently. I have a family car for that anyway.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

long time no update.

lots of stuff happened (more details on some of these are at our site http://www.eMotorWerks.com). 

* We had 2 roadshows (Yahoo, Genentech) and 3 other public appearances with our orange rocket EMW 3 series. People love it ;-). Next up - eBay & Google.

* Just released our first public version of the EMW EV Dashboard - see http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-flavors-ev-display-63265.html for discussion, http://www.emotorwerks.com/emw3/product/ev-dashboard-by-emw-basic-edition/ for product description.

* Our second E46 conversion is now online and is being painted orange, as well! ;-) Same 5-6 sec 0-60, ~100 mile range. Using all-CNC fabrication. After a couple of K miles on this one, we will start our first customer conversions.

* Just had a first inadvertent crash test of our EMW1. Rear left tire blew at 70mph in a steep freeway turn - at night & in heavy rain. Car spun out, hit the curb, broke the wheels, lost a bumper, and bent a bunch of suspension parts. Was able to drive it to next exit. Upon inspection next day, was amazing to confirm that none of the electric conversion components sustained any damage whatsoever. Those elastic battery boxes and rubber motor mounts paid off ;-)

We are eyeing a 5-series for our third demo car now...

V


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

E39 5 series ??


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Great Job Valery !!!

Go V - GO V - GO V...

Super bowl tomorrow.....  Who you think gonna win ....

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/46 

-Y.


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

err... I don't think he knows what Super bowl is, he's spending all his time in our work shop, creating the future EV technology  he he 

Henry


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

hows the progress of the new controller? Can you share any specs with us?

400V 1500A?


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> hows the progress of the new controller? Can you share any specs with us?
> 
> 400V 1500A?


Still in dev. we had a 1200A version in our first prototype but for aesthetic reasons we have Solitons in both of our demo cars. The 600A version is powering the fiat ;-)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

some fun pics for conversion geeks: our recent photoshoot for BMW conversion manual. http://emotorwerks.com/images/BMW_conversion_manual/


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

valerun said:


> some fun pics for conversion geeks: our recent photoshoot for BMW conversion manual. http://emotorwerks.com/images/BMW_conversion_manual/


What's the F/R weight distribution like? 

How's the body roll with all the heavy batteries up high? (was rear/fuel tank area used?)


attaman said:


> you can just buy a transmission on ebay


TUET11012


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

yes, 32 cells (~200lbs) in the rear. Fuel cell area used for optional addition of 22 cells.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

valerun said:


> yes, 32 cells (~200lbs) in the rear. Fuel cell area used for optional addition of 22 cells.


Just a thought, if you've already already got the mounting ability down there, putting those 22 cells down there and removing 22 from the front high and rear high should significantly reduce body roll and and improve rotational handling. 

(Look at what they did with all the production EVs, batteries low as possible and centered)


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> Just a thought, if you've already already got the mounting ability down there, putting those 22 cells down there and removing 22 from the front high and rear high should significantly reduce body roll and and improve rotational handling.
> 
> (Look at what they did will all the production EVs, batteries low as possible and centered)


yes, you're right. Rear is pretty low already so the savings better come from front upper pack (right now 31 cells).

good point.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Out of curiosity, how hard are the newer BMW dashes to integrate with? (For example, there's a bunch of 128/135s with flood damaged engines down in Houston, one of them might have just ingested water and not had the cabin flood) (3300lbs stock curb weight would be nice to start with.)


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> Out of curiosity, how hard are the newer BMW dashes to integrate with? (For example, there's a bunch of 128/135s with flood damaged engines down in Houston, one of them might have just ingested water and not had the cabin flood) (3300lbs stock curb weight would be nice to start with.)


nice. I want one ;-) anyway, at a minimum, you don't need to integrate at all - nothing serious breaks if you don't. some gauges just won't work, that's all.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

valerun said:


> nice. I want one ;-) anyway, at a minimum, you don't need to integrate at all - nothing serious breaks if you don't. some gauges just won't work, that's all.


Great. I was worried about the Airbag+ABS (and DSC, because it uses both the throttle (so that won't work) and the brakes (which should work)). I can worry about the gauges later if I go that route.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> Great. I was worried about the Airbag+ABS (and DSC, because it uses both the throttle (so that won't work) and the brakes (which should work)). I can worry about the gauges later if I go that route.


Airbags and ABS would be fine as they are controlled independently of engine. you *will* lose at least part of DSC (the one that depends on engine control). We are now working on completely emulating ICE engine response but our solution will be initially designed for e46's


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

All - see a short video of EMW-002 assembly at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlCr6zb2pl0. Total elapsed real time for assembly from all separate parts by 3 people: ~3 hours. Battery boxes are pre-built.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

valerun said:


> All - see a short video of EMW-002 assembly at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlCr6zb2pl0. Total elapsed real time for assembly from all separate parts by 3 people: ~3 hours. Battery boxes are pre-built.


Very nice. 

There's enough airflow for the motor without forced cooling?


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey Valery. I have seen the video of your fiat in action, and was wondering do you guys have any video showing the performance of the BMW? i looked on your web page and search engine, but did not find anything.


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Nice build. Very interested on what you do to emulate the ice. My next swap will be e46.


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

We are still thinking of the best solution for that. The straightforward approach would be an Arduino base board that plugs into the BMW computer and mimics the signals coming from the ICE... but BMW specialists (who have THE autologic equipment) told us good luck basically...

I guess it'll be a good challenge


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

the best solution though would be getting one of them Autologic tools and just re-program the ECU completely! How cool would that be 
http://www.autologic-diagnostics.com/en/pages/homeproducts/autologic-solution/bmw-diagnostics

but those toys are very expensive...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

attaman said:


> the best solution though would be getting one of them Autologic tools and just re-program the ECU completely! How cool would that be
> http://www.autologic-diagnostics.com/en/pages/homeproducts/autologic-solution/bmw-diagnostics
> 
> but those toys are very expensive...


Can't you just do that with the normal serial tools?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=233


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

don't know... I'll need to do some serious reading on that forum you posted.

Reprogramming itself is probably not an issue, question is the source code. What code do you program it with? Has the BMW ECU code been reverse engineered? Does Autologic have that code?
Because you'll need to know what all the inputs and outputs are, and what signals are normally coming in going out of the ECU...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

attaman said:


> don't know... I'll need to do some serious reading on that forum you posted.
> 
> Reprogramming itself is probably not an issue, question is the source code. What code do you program it with? Has the BMW ECU code been reverse engineered? Does Autologic have that code?
> Because you'll need to know what all the inputs and outputs are, and what signals are normally coming in going out of the ECU...


As far as I was aware, we may have the binary code, and that's it.

GT1 and INPA and whatever just reprogram certain options.

It also gets weird depending on if you're dealing with 323/328 or 325/330 generations iirc.


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

I've done a bit with DIS, INPA and GT1. Not very user friendly programs. But they do work....Sort of. Agree reprogramming would be a lot of work but would be way cool.

Seems that sending the ECU a fake cam and or crank signal based off the motor's tac output is all that is needed. If I were an electrical guy instead of a mechanical guy that's what I'd do.

I've read about an E46 project where they installed another sensor wheel and the BMW's crank sensor to send signals to the ECU. Would work but I keep waiting for someone to make one of those magic black boxes to do a signal conversion instead 

Hey since you have yours driving perhaps you can answer a question. What does and does not work on the car? HVAC controls. ABS (Have you had it actually pulse and engage under hard braking) etc. Cruise, Tac, Temp guage, MPG gage, gas gage, all dead I'm sure.

Oh forgot to add. Love the EV focused on performance. If more were made that way I think EV's would catch on much quicker.


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## attaman (Feb 15, 2011)

lot of work is not a problem... how do you reverse engineer the ECU source code?

I don't think you can get away with only "cam and or crank" signals, there are a bunch of sensors/wires going from the ICE into ECU. Wrong signal on any of them should trigger an error (otherwise it's useless and wouldn't be there). And all those signals depend on each other in some non trivial ways and define the working engine regime... all kind of pressures, temperatures, RPMs etc...

You either need to mimic all of them, or completely rewrite the code which will not care about them... mimicing with the black box sounds more realistic...

In our E46 dashboard only the speedometer and odometer work, everything else is in a "christmas tree" mode, all possible lights are on.

ABS - not sure, probably it's a completely standalone system, but haven't tested yet )


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Cool thread guys! Im going to come back and read the second half and ask a lot of questions I am building something with the same motor.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

attaman said:


> lot of work is not a problem... how do you reverse engineer the ECU source code?
> 
> I don't think you can get away with only "cam and or crank" signals, there are a bunch of sensors/wires going from the ICE into ECU. Wrong signal on any of them should trigger an error (otherwise it's useless and wouldn't be there). And all those signals depend on each other in some non trivial ways and define the working engine regime... all kind of pressures, temperatures, RPMs etc...
> 
> ...


What? I know the tach has a mech mode so that's easy; I thought valerun said you had warning light suppression.

Try posting in that diagnostic subforum I linked.

You can also try the engine swaps because they're tooling around with the instrumentation too for their LSx engines.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

What is with the swimming effect on the longer video? 

Also how many 100Ah cells are in that top battery box? (22?)


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Some of the information I have is from this post that had an ICE swap (man after my own heart)
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22312599&postcount=29

and

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22351356&postcount=32

Also comunicated with another EV'er that did an e46. In the E46 EV he just removed the ECU and claimed that the HVAC and other things still worked and were controlled out of the instrument cluster (he never did get the tach to work though). But that goes against what the E46 LS1 project said which claimed many systems didn't work without the ECU. SO i've read many conflicting messages. Could be some variation from year to year? 

It may be that I won't know until I do my own swap. Plan to turn my E36 EV into and E46 EV when I get back to the USA this fall (currently in Sweden). But any info I can gather beforehand is good stuff.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

busy busy busy times. 

Second prototype completed with accessories. 

First test drives at Google's Earth Day event last month

Huge Maker Faire event this past weekend - 2,000-4,000 people stopped by.

We made Engadget: http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/22/electric-motor-werks-hands-on-at-maker-faire-video/

Gearing up to public conversions / kit sales this quarter.

Valery


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

valerun said:


> busy busy busy times.
> 
> Second prototype completed with accessories.
> 
> ...


Val,
Great Job!!! please check your email...
-Y.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi Valery - been meaning to ask this question for awhile now. In the video you causally mention regen in the upcoming controller. Is this DC (interpole?) or AC?

Any titbits welcome ....


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Hi Valery - been meaning to ask this question for awhile now. In the video you causally mention regen in the upcoming controller. Is this DC (interpole?) or AC?
> 
> Any titbits welcome ....


DC SepEx. Similar power to Series.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

valerun said:


> busy busy busy times.
> 
> Second prototype completed with accessories.
> 
> ...


Noticed some cells laying on their sides in the trunk. According to the link below they are not supposed to be mounted that way. Not so?
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/9972-thundersky-cell-orientation

Also, what "next generation" batteries were you referring to?
You interview well.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> Noticed some cells laying on their sides in the trunk. According to the link below they are not supposed to be mounted that way. Not so?
> http://visforvoltage.org/forum/9972-thundersky-cell-orientation
> 
> Also, what "next generation" batteries were you referring to?
> You interview well.


Jack Rickard has been running a 20 or so cells laying flat in his second build of the red Porsche speedster for well over a year with no apparent problems. Just a data point. It would sure be easier for packaging if this turned out to be a non-issue. BTW, nothing in the mfr literature warns against this orientation...


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

valerun said:


> DC SepEx. Similar power to Series.


Hey that's an interesting development!

Are you building a DC SepEx controller? Able to share your target parameters - volts, amps , regen amps etc

I've seen a few SepEx motors around - Kostov sell some - which are you planning to use?

Are you going Calb "grey" or Sinopoly "black" for your future builds?

Thanks,

David.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Hey that's an interesting development!
> 
> Are you building a DC SepEx controller? Able to share your target parameters - volts, amps , regen amps etc
> 
> ...


we are exploring both partnership and build options for sepex. the target params are 400V max battery voltage, 400kW max output power, 1,200-1,400A max output current, 200-300A max regen current. 

right now, Kostovs are the only 'real-size' SepEx motors but netgains are a potential options.

For now, we are a CALB shop. I don't yet see the point in going to grey since they have identical specs to blue (on paper).

V


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

All reports indicate the grey cells have *far *higher discharge rates (less sag).

Something to keep an eye on.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

There was a post here from Arthas who is apparently with CALB who says the CA series cells have been in mass production and the blue SE cells are what they are trying to stop manufacturing. So soon enough, that may be what they will be shipping to you. Based on the speculation here and Jack Rickard's initial testing, they might be more ideal for your higher intended output and regen rates.

Here's a link to the post:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310657#post310657


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

valerun said:


> Some observations from 2,000 miles in the EMW-1:
> 1. 11HV really needs more voltage. 97 LiFePo4 cells are really not enough. The pack sags to 250V at 800A.


Hi Valery,

Are you able to provide more detail on your report of the power density of the Calb 100ah cell?

I'm talking to Jack of EVTV and he is of the belief there should be no difference between the different cells in the same series due to same chemistry used.

But from his testing the 180ah cell sagged to 2.6v at 1000 amps, and from above it would seem the same sag but at a much higher C rate.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks,

David.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Hi Valery,
> 
> Are you able to provide more detail on your report of the power density of the Calb 100ah cell?
> 
> ...


Will see if I have more details in my notes.

As to different capacity cells sagging more or less: there's too many other variables entering the equation. For example, in 180AH cells, the wiring and terminals of the cell are the limiting factor for max current, not the internals. You can see that from the datasheets - their max 10s current is 1000A (or 5.5C) while the same rating for 100AH cell is 800A (8C)... So you *will* get different sag for same C rate from different capacity cells.

V


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

valerun said:


> Airbags and ABS would be fine as they are controlled independently of engine. you *will* lose at least part of DSC (the one that depends on engine control). We are now working on completely emulating ICE engine response but our solution will be initially designed for e46's


Did you get this to work? If not I think I have a potential can bus solution that does not need the ECU. You may have seen my posts on bimmerforum.

Thaniel


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Thaniel said:


> Did you get this to work? If not I think I have a potential can bus solution that does not need the ECU. You may have seen my posts on bimmerforum.
> 
> Thaniel


not yet. would love to hear. thanks!


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah I've read over Thaniel's work. He's doing some amazing stuff with just a dashboard and no car !?!

He's his threads - I think with your combined talents it would make for a great car experience.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/and-so-begins-17727p17.html

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1887229

and his video of driving the dashboard 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqB4xqDC14c


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Thanks drgrieve saved me hunting for those links.

One more from this forum http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=329692#post329692
That one is where I started down the engine simulator path (and got a decent way) then was talked into looking at a can bus solution.

I see no reason why this shouldn't work on the full car as well as just the instrument cluster. But guess we don't know until we try it.

Thaniel


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Any luck?

10char


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## tdendinger (Jan 23, 2012)

Are you guys selling kits yet? I'd like to order one if so.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah they do have a look at http://www.emotorwerks.com.

Haven't seen much updates recently, on the web site or facebook or here - I'm guessing they're getting busy fulfilling orders.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

tdendinger said:


> Are you guys selling kits yet? I'd like to order one if so.


we do - responded in email. thanks for your interest!


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Val,
I think you should be able to participate in BMW challenge http://www.localmotors.com/bmw-phase-2-challenge-extended-tiny-chat-scheduled/2012/11 

My 2c, -Y.


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