# trying an automatic transmission



## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

as the title implies, im going to "try" at an auto transmission for my conversion. 

when i acquired my donor vehicle, ice was already out, but the auto trans was in there. 

since i was going direct drive, i yanked out the trans, and tore it apart, beyond repair. i learned a bunch of stuff, about its inner workings.

i later decided i needed more gearing, apart from the differential ratio of 3.15 on a 5-series bmw. so i tried to adapt the auto transmission for gearing only.

after weeks of pondering and research, i decided to get another transmission, and try to incorporate it into my plans.

this thread will document my attempt at that.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Please get a Powerglide  . I didn't know about them when I started my conversion.
Good luck.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

ok, here's the new victim; just fresh out of a totalled 00' 540i, 113000 miles, "recently rebuilt" (according to the junkyard guys). complete with torque converter.

i examined it and found new gaskets overlapping the pan and pump, but it could mean anything. not a big issue for me. the amount of time i have put into studying this trans, gives me the confidence to rebuild it, if it comes to that.

its a zf 5hp24 , made by zf transmissions, for a variety of 4.4 litre european vehicles. mainly used in the jaguar xj8 and xjs, range rover hse, audi a8, porsche, and ofcourse, bmw 540, m5, 740, and the x5. its a common trans, and easy to find on ebay and car-part.com .

since i have two torque converters, i tore the old one up for research purposes, and removed the transmission input spline, and the pump drive. easiest way is to use a welder to cut through.









and here they are, after separating them from the tq.









the splined one goes to the input shaft, and the gapped one hooks up to the trans hydraulic pump.

the plan is to merge this two characters together, to replace the torque converter.


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

DDDvvv said:


> View attachment 14236
> 
> 
> ok, here's the new victim; just fresh out of a totalled 00' 540i, 113000 miles, "recently rebuilt" (according to the junkyard guys). complete with torque converter.
> ...


You are going to have a lag between putting the transmission in gear and when it starts to move and may cause excess wear on the friction components. The reason is that no oil flows until you turn thr pump. If you combine the two components then the input shaft will turn at the same time the pump does causing wear as pressure is built up in the transmissions hydraulic circuits. Once you get enough pressure (rpm) then the clutches and bands will begin to apply - SLOWLY. That will cause wear. I take it there is no reverse in your motor controller - or that you won't be using it - because if you reverse your motor direction you will kill the transmission because all the oil will be sucked from the operating circuits and pushed back into the sump.

If you keep and use an intact converter pressure comse up to a desirable level before the converter starts moving the input shaft. You can still shut the motor off at stops but as soon as it starts up you will build pressure before it "goes into gear". No damage to the transmission but still a lag.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The Pump issue is worth noting.

You could use the pump drive with a pulley on it and a small motor on the outside of the bell housing driving it. Or you can get a small 12v hydraulic pump and plumb it into the pump housing.

Have you looked at this thread? Also have a look at Mizlplix's build thread.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

to Torque converter or not to Tc, the final decision has not been made yet. im keeping my options open. yes i have a pump ready, if i decide on the non tc route;









this is a brake booster pump out of an acura. very strong, according to tests, yet tiny. was planning to use it for powersteering pump, but it might find a new job suplementing the main trans pump.

here are my considerations;

keeping torque converter:
-extra starting torque generation (upto 3:1)
-smoother starts from rest
-easier pump drive
-more weight from tc
-starting lag
-my machinist needs original flywheel to couple motor to the tc
-flywheel weighs around 38 lb, and i would have to buy one.

going without torque converter:
-less weight; no converter/flywheel
-aux pump needed, and associated plumbing
-rough starts from rest
-risk of wearing out clutch bands, due to rough starts.
-easier to machine motor/pump/trans input coupler (all ready to go)















it pays to have a 9x12 lathe in the basement.

i've been reading all the autotrans ev threads and web pages. some guy in the powerglide thread says that pump pressure is maintained for 30 minutes, and if i can maintain pressure for 1 minute, that would definately cause me to dump the converter. of course, this depends on transmission model.

i checked out the pump from the first trans. the pressure regulating valve also acts as a check valve. so no sucking out oil from valve body incase of accidental reversal of motor. the ac motor will be locked to clockwise rotation, and all motor reversing inputs will be disabled, since transmission reverse will be used instead.

so im trying the converterless mode first, for test purposes, record the results, and if undesirable, move on to plan b; tc with flywheel.

im following mizlplix's build, and thanks for the advise guys.

is there anyone running an automatic trans without the torque converter out there?


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

I just put out a thread asking how to do this with an auto tranny on my Elantra....I should have read this first! I am certainly thinking about not using the torque converter however I am confused about reverse gear a and hydraulic pressure.

How does TC affect reverse gear/reversing motor?

How are you going to hook up your pressure pump (would an old power steering pump work?) 

I am literally looking at the exact same picture of my tranny with ATC and wondering what the heck I should do with it....keep it or chuck it. It's frickin' heavy. 

I disconnected two hoses from the radiator underbelly where the atf is cooled. Would that be a good place to splice in a pump? 

I'm so unsure of this...


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

the torque converter does not affect reverse at all. it rotates only one direction, and reverse is achieved by a couple of clutch packs changing a couple of planet gear assemblies, inside the trans.

i would not get rid of that torque converter yet. its easier sometimes to include the tq, although its heavy. and if you cannot find a place to tap the external pump into. 

the atf cooling loop is fed from excess fluid from the pressure relief valve, then goes back to the sump, so thats not a good place to plumb your motor into. i figured out that i can plumb right at the output of the pressure relief valve. only problem with that is that you have to supply the correct pressure since you will be bypassing the valve.

a power steering pump will work since its just a hydraulic pump, and if you can get it to run, and regulate excess pressure.

the non torque converter route is just an experiment, and i already ordered a light flywheel, just incase it does not work out. if i can maintain pressure for at least a minute, i will skip the torque converter and external pump.

find out the model of your trans, and get all the tech documents about it, and the info will be the deciding factor for you.

hope that helps.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

I didn't think that it had anything to do with reverse.. I don't see why reverse gear shouldn't work perfectly as if it was stock....as for the power steering pump idea, I was thinking that if it was on the other end of the motor (twin shaft) it would automatically regulate to rpms but I'm not sure. Maybe the friggin TC is an easier option after all. Since my rad is disconnected, I guess I need a similar release valve to the one on my non-existent rad.

Have you given any thought to the Throttle position sensor? I can't find mine on the Elantra. I need the damned repair manual. Is there any other hack that you'll need to do to get this to work? 

I can't think of any. Really from a retrofit stand-point, it shouldn't be THAT different...except the rpms of an electric motor are likely not as high as the gas engine....other than that, seems pretty straightforward....he says naively.

I just thought of something. If you have the TC on it, you don't need a spline shaft. You could get away with a 5/8 " pulley or whatever your shaft diameter is and weld it to the TC. hmmmm.....


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Based on what PaulS says, a TC seems like a decent bargain considering how much less of a headache it is. I've heard that the lag is not a big deal and only happens when you first set off. Then after, it's pretty decent.


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

Jamie,
I would not use a transmission at all in an electric vehicle. There is no need for the added weight and the electrics can do anything your transmissin can do when the drive train is designed correctly. The reason the ICE cars use a transmission is because they have to get up to speed before the engine produces much torque. Your electric motor produces maximum torque when it is stalled and tapers off as the speed increases. A transmission costs about 5% in watt-hour consumption and really contributes nothing in the process.


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

A transmission still multiplies torque though. 

An electric motor may make full torque at zero speed, but that doesn't mean it makes unlimited torque. The torque is finite. You could say getting a gearbox with a fixed ratio does the same, but the transmission is already designed for the car in question, no extra machining required (that is, beyond matching the motor to the transmission)

This is especially important since he's using an AC motor, which finds better performance at higher speeds vs making lots of torque a lower speeds. The same reason why makers of commercial/professional EVs use a relatively high overall gear ratio.


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

My 2cents:

What would happen in this scenario with the input shaft and pump shafts welded together:

Each time before starting from standstill you position the shifter in either Neutral or Park and spin the motor for a few seconds to rotate the pump and build up pressure. Then you release the throttle before putting the shifter in Drive and throttle away. 

If properly timed there should be oil pressure in the system at the moment when needed and as soon as the vehicle comes into motion the pump would be doing its chore.
If needed, a small pressure accumulator might be connected to a pressure check point which I believe most trannies have. That should cover the critical moment.

Any opinions on this ?

Agust


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

PaulS said:


> Jamie,
> I would not use a transmission at all in an electric vehicle. There is no need for the added weight and the electrics can do anything your transmissin can do when the drive train is designed correctly. The reason the ICE cars use a transmission is because they have to get up to speed before the engine produces much torque. Your electric motor produces maximum torque when it is stalled and tapers off as the speed increases. A transmission costs about 5% in watt-hour consumption and really contributes nothing in the process.


I do understand that. In a perfect world I would just have the motor driving a diff and to hell with the tranny at all. Motor reversing can be done electronically. I get that...it's just a machining pain and a technical challenge that I'm not up to really. Unless you know of a cheap way to splice a diff to the CV half shafts??? I'm all ears...

Maybe saw open the tranny and attack to the diff? 

I think the idea is great though...when I get my hands on an actual motor that is.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Hmmm maybe find a rear end from some sort of small truck and use that as the diff? (my terminology might be wrong)


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

One more question, where is this pump situated at present? Isn't the Torque converter doing the pumping? Isn't that what pressurizes the whole system? I apologize if these are dumb questions.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

the pump assembly is right behind the torque converter. in the main trans body.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

the brownish area in the trans bell housing is the pump body, on the left of this image.

has anyone tried a trans mount this way? some 4x2 7-gauge steel beams bolted to the trans bell and housing?









will weld some more steel together to cover all bell to ice mounting bolt holes. heres how it looks with just the bell housing attached to pump.

this trans gets tps info, engine load, speed and other info from ice ecu through a can bus. if any parameters are out of specs, the tcu will immediately throw the trans into protective limp mode: all you get will be 5th gear, at ratio 0.80:1. its going to be difficult to cheat this tcu. i wont even waste timeon it. the plan is to use a custom trans controller.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

DDDvvv said:


> the pump assembly is right behind the torque converter. in the main trans body.


well that makes sense...now on my transmission, it's got two spline shafts. One larger one that is fixed that the TC fits over and a smaller one that rotates and fits inside the stationary one. So basically it's like the outer spline is just a stationary tube with a smaller spline that rotates inside. 

Is the smaller spline shaft the drive point and the larger one simply a purchase point for the TC's "impeller" drive (for lack of a better word)? 

Does your spline look the same?


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

you are right on the money. mine is likethat too. outer spline is stationary, and inner spline is the drive input. and then covering all this is the pump drive, what you see sticking out of the torque conv.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

DDDvvv said:


> you are right on the money. mine is likethat too. outer spline is stationary, and inner spline is the drive input. and then covering all this is the pump drive, what you see sticking out of the torque conv.


Alright, we're on the same page. Great. So if I keep the TC, and replace the atf pressure release valve with....something.....and run my motor at the same RPM range that the tranny expects from it....I should be able to auto shift, right?

I'm told the tps can be hacked with a 5k pot and you can adjust it to have higher or lower end gear selections (kinda spiffy). As for the ecu, I have no friggin' clue how to deal with that or even where the thing is (or the TPS for that matter.

I hate processors. I wish cars were without them.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Am I missing a component? I don't think so...


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

if keeping the tq conv then you dont need to change anything to do with the pump or pressure regulating valve.

about the 5k pot adjusting the shift points, i cannot offer any advise on that , since i havent tried it

your vehicles electrical diagram will pinpoint tps cables and location.

of all the transmissions out there, i had to pick a complicated 5-speed, with 3 shift solenoids and 5 additional pressure regulating solenoids. so, you still have it easy with that elantra, compared to what ill be going through.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

You are a brave man. As for motors, yours looks to be about the same size ICE it replaces! 

What do you think the minimum horsepower it would require to cycle through the gears with drive wheels elevated (no load)? I have a wee motor I'd like to try.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Guys, not to argue or correct: 

There is not a lag, jerk or lurch, when you have an external pump hooked to the correct port on the transmssion. It takes off normally.
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=95d1c812.mp4

The frictions do not wear abnormally either. They are applied before everything starts turning (the reason for the aux. pump).

No, the transmission will not hold pressure for more than a few seconds to 1 minute, depending on trans mileage. There are also designed-in leaks that lubricate the planetaries and cooler circuit.

You need a pump volume just larger than your transmission leak rate to work. Mine is 1.5GPM @150psi. (For the manual shift powerglide.)

Mine is key switched full time. It shuts off soon after the traction motor starts turning and back on 1-2 seconds after the car comes to a full stop. 

You need an apply pressure at least 2/3rds of your transmission operating pressure. If your pump is too much lower than your operating pressure, you can install a back flow check like this:
http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Inline_Check_Valve_p/cpiff.htm?1=1&CartID=0

You need to tap into the main pressure galley between the main pump and the pressure relief. Many transmissions have a test port there. My powerglide does not. I had to made a "tap". It is detailed in the EV powerglide build thread.



















You get your oil supply from the pan anywhere. It does not have to be filtered. (Although you can if you want to).








The suction tube is at the left. Or you can just use the pan drain hole.

I hope this helps.

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Do I really need my atf cooler? Can I just splice the input and output of the cooler lines together or would this cause everything to overheat? i COULD RUN A LENGTH OF COPPER LINE IN BEHIND THE GRILL AND COOL IT THAT WAY...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

J: With no converter, you lose 90% of the heat. I only get about 140F-160F in the 110F AZ summer.

Your choice. If it heats, you can run a cooler later, but I doubt it.

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

i am inclined to use the TC since it has it's own stock mounting bracket that I might be able to mate to my shaft (of a small test motor). At least until I see if it can actually shift gears etc etc, and then when I get a real and serious motor, I'll ditch the converter and run a pump etc...or if it's torqy enough I'll continue to use it...I dunno. Seems like a toss-up to me. Lag does not bother me. Nor does loss of power since eother way I'd have to provide pressure which drains the batts that much quicker...so really, who cares? I like the idea that my wife could drive it with no fear of the dreaded gear change lol.

worst case scenario, it doesn't work and I go and find either a truck rear end or a manual box and be done with it. I'm actually tempted to do the former....has anyone here done that?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Note: The aux pump runs off of the 12VDC battery and not the pack. It is 7 amps at peak. The headlights are 45 Amps as a reference.

Question: What is the lag you are refering to?

Truck rear end. Are you talking about a lower gear ratio?
I am using an 8.8 from a 5.0L mustang with a 6.14:1 ratio.

My car weighs 2,000lbs or so and I can drive in high gear just fine. Anything heavier will need 2 to 3 gears, especially if there is any hills or long ramps.


Miz


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Note: The aux pump runs off of the 12VDC battery and not the pack. It is 7 amps at peak. The headlights are 45 Amps as a reference.


Headlights are typically 35-55W low beam, 55-65W high beam. HID headlights are 2x-3x more efficient, but are sized to put out more light. A typical power draw is 35W each, or about 5 amps (5 amps at 14V = 70W) for a pair. So this pump is roughly the same power draw as a pair of headlights.

The transmissions I'm familiar with operate the TCC (torque converter clutch, locking the parts together for highway efficiency) by pushing ATF through and around the input shaft. The seal is around the pump drive, everything else is wet. That would tremendously complicate omitting the converter. Is that the case with the ZF you are using?

I think it's common for transmissions to not have pressure ports. Instead the factory manual shows the exact locations to drill and tap a pipe threaded hole in the casting for the rare case that in-use diagnosis is needed.

I applaud you for trying to build a transmission controller. It's a rare person that knows how to design the hardware, write the firmware and understand the operation of a hydraulically actuated compound planetary gear transmission. But once you look into it, I suspect you'll conclude that prototyping with a hard-wired single gear selection and then deducing the CAN bus messages to the stock controller is an easier solution.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just get an Opti-Shift like most people do.











AT: http://www.usshift.com/index.shtml

I have read of people directly operating the shift solenoids for manual shifting. It would be cool if you could use a Fender guitar 7 position switch to control some small relays to shift the transmission, leaving the lock up solenoid out of the circuit. 

Excuse me, I read watts as volts. My point that I was trying to make was that the pump load was not really large. Not more than a power steering or vacuum pump would be. 

A friend is using a 4L60 Chevy transmission. It is a "lock up" type. 

He is lucky because it has a high pressure test port that monitors oil pressure for reverse and forward gears. Otherwise he must drill a port in the pump face outlet port. Like I did. (according to advice from his tranny builder)

BTW: Most transmissions use the oil return flow from the cooler to directly lube and cool the planetaries. Always loop them.


His lock up feature puts oil pressure through the center of the input shaft.
In his drive coupling and it is just a blank end. It should perform no function or have any effect. Maybe it would be a good thing if the solenoid were unplugged? Maybe there is a setting in the Opti-Shift to do this?

miz


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

The torque of the motor is dependent on the amps that flow through it. The efficiency of the motor is dependent on the speed of the motor. Electric motors use less amps when they turn fast. Speed is determined by the voltage in most DC motors. If you isolate the field from the armature you can get higher speeds with lower amps through the field. Kind of like overdrive but you don't get a lot of torque unless you run more amps through the fields.
All this is trying to point out that your electric motor can be 90 - 98% efficient and when you stick a transmission on it you lose at least 10% of that efficiency.
The more load you place on your motor the more amps are required to make your car go. The typical auto-transmission require 25 - 70 hp due to pump load, internal friction and converter losses. That is why manual transmission cars get better mileage than the autos. A manual transmission is a loss of about 5% through internal friction. 
I don't understand the desire to decrease the efficiency of the electric motor by using power robbing devices. Instead you should do what you can to drastically reduce the weight of your conversion car and eliminate as much of the power consumption as you can.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That might be true in the older automatics, but the new ones rival the stick cars for MPG.

I run a powerglide because it weighs 25 Lbs less than the T-5 I took out. It does not have converter losses(no converter). It is one of the few transmissions with only 1 planetary, (like the model T Ford) so very low frictional losses. 

Manual transmissions suffer from frictional losses too. The gear sets are helical cut to load the gears to make them run quieter. 80W-90 Gear grease is a power hog too. Get one of the later units using ATF for lower friction. 

A good thread about it.
http://www.sciforums.com/Manual-Transmission-power-loss-vs-Auto-t-43079.html

Car Craft magazine did an exhaustive series of dyno tests and concluded that there was about 15% more HP loss in an automatic over a stick. (20-25HP in their hot V8 mule motor) AND it was all in the torque converter.

Most want the ability to use the transmission that is in the car, saving money and conversion headaches. They also want a car the wife or kids can drive.(Meaning one close to a normal ICE)

To each, their own I guess is what I am saying. (or no A/C, no power steering, no power brakes, no electric heater, and get rid of the windshield because it pushes too much air.)

Miz


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Guys, not to argue or correct:
> 
> There is not a lag, jerk or lurch, when you have an external pump hooked to the correct port on the transmssion. It takes off normally.
> http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=95d1c812.mp4


That's a nice car. I'm not sure if I read correctly, but if you are not using a torque converter, how did you hook it all up? What mods did you have to do? I'm not familiar with automatic transmissions. :-(


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> That might be true in the older automatics, but the new ones rival the stick cars for MPG.
> 
> I run a powerglide because it weighs 25 Lbs less than the T-5 I took out. It does not have converter losses(no converter). It is one of the few transmissions with only 1 planetary, (like the model T Ford) so very low frictional losses.
> 
> ...


Miz,
The torque converter is where a lot of the power goes in automatics but that is if you run a gas engineand HAVE to use a transmission. The power glide weighs about 75 pounds without the converter and then you added an electric pump and the power it draws. How much better would the car be if it weighed 75 -80 pounds less? How much further could you drive without the need of the pump motor?
I am not saying that you did anything wrong - just that you might have missed some of the performance that your car can give. (without knowing any of the specs of your car) When I was building cars for the track we worked to get down to the minimum weights - counting ounces - so we could get the acceleration, cornering and braking necessary to the task at hand. We figured (maybe incorrectly) that every ten pounds was worth an extra HP in acceleration and braking and worth about 0.1G in the turns.
In electric vehicles it is easier to keep the CG at the right point so the suspension can work to get you where you are going. In a field where weight costs money and there is no minimum spec I would suggest getting rid of as much as possible.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

so what is heavier and takes more power? TC or pressure pump?


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

The torque converter weighs about 40 pounds with oil, the pump motor weighs about 10 but draws power from a battery which affects how far you can go. A pump motor that produces the 100 to 140 PSI at enough volume for the transmission to operate and cool normally will draw 15 to 25 amps at nominal 12vdc. That is 240Wh/h (approx)
The power wasted by the torque converter (turned to heat) is going to be about 2 - 3 times that much because you are also turning the front pump in the transmission.

You shouldn't need any transmission. mount you motor where the transmission is and get a slip yoke for your driveline to match the motor output shaft. You will still have the weight of the driveline and differential and the losses associated with them but you will have gotten rid of the 1-200 pounds of transmission so it will be a big savings in weight.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

PaulS said:


> The torque converter weighs about 40 pounds with oil, the pump motor weighs about 10 but draws power from a battery which affects how far you can go. A pump motor that produces the 100 to 140 PSI at enough volume for the transmission to operate and cool normally will draw 15 to 25 amps at nominal 12vdc. That is 240Wh/h (approx)
> The power wasted by the torque converter (turned to heat) is going to be about 2 - 3 times that much because you are also turning the front pump in the transmission.
> 
> You shouldn't need any transmission. mount you motor where the transmission is and get a slip yoke for your driveline to match the motor output shaft. You will still have the weight of the driveline and differential and the losses associated with them but you will have gotten rid of the 1-200 pounds of transmission so it will be a big savings in weight.



Thank you, that was very informative! I'm all for direct drive. Slip yoke? I'm gonna have to look that up...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My best summation: (after owning 3 EV's , a lifetime career race mechanic and engineer)

When driving, one experiences many different situations, loads, hills, weather, speeds, traffic and temperature, just to name a few.

Heavy haul trucks have up to 18 gears to enable the vehicle to adapt to the changing road conditions. The same is necessary for a passenger car. Sure, you can drive in one gear, but as the conditions change, you will wish for that next gear to help out.....

When I was planning my car, I knew it would be very light weight. I initially had a T-5 transmission in it. My two previous EV's had 4 speeds in them. I figured it could come in handy to have an overdrive. Wrong...

I live in flatland USA. There are no really big grades in my driving area. My car is under 2,000Lbs. The traffic in my area is light. I had ordered the largest AC motor I could afford and changed to a two speed transmission. 

Sure, my car can do 70MPH in low gear. But it is really noisy and screams like a jet engine. 

I also have driven my car in high gear only. It takes off nicely and drives well. But there has been a few times I have needed to jet out into traffic to blend in smoothly. That low gear is really nice then.

My future plans include winding a custom motor. One that is almost twice as powerful as the AC50. Then I will consider a direct drive to be appropriate for my car.

"Ideas build the world, but experience makes for less mistakes."

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

I suspect 2 gears for most ev is plenty. A simple two speed transmission would probably be the best of both worlds. Low frictional loss an d a better power curve. 

So I still don't know what you man by slip yoke. I'm not good with the terminology yet. Is there a pic?


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Jamie EV said:


> So I still don't know what you man by slip yoke. I'm not good with the terminology yet. Is there a pic?


Just Google it , try " slip yoke picture " for a picture, and " what is a slip yoke" for description.

It's just that easy.

Have fun.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

TEV said:


> Just Google it , try " slip yoke picture " for a picture, and " what is a slip yoke" for description.
> 
> It's just that easy.
> 
> Have fun.


Well I actually already did that...and say that component but was unclear on how you intended to implement it. You mean a slip yoke on each CV joint an d twin motors? Or a slip yoke on the motor going to a transfer case and then mating to the CVs?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

This would be a slip yoke:








It has inner splines and slides along a splined shaft.


It would look like this on an electric motor:








It would take a driveshaft directly.

For this set up to work well it takes a light weight car, no hills and a whopping big battery pack or you will be disappointed with the lower end acceleration.

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> This would be a slip yoke:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if it was going to a rear wheel drive transfer case, then fine, but in my car's case, front wheel drive means twin motors (or take a rear end and use it in front and one big motor...warp 11 maybe  )


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

Agust Sigurdsson said:


> My 2cents:
> 
> What would happen in this scenario with the input shaft and pump shafts welded together:
> 
> ...


this idea looks viable. only thing is, it introduces the same "delay" as pressure buildup with a torque converter.

thanks all for all the input. 

im leaning towards a torque converter (for later). here's the reason; this zf transmission has a solenoid valve dedicated to locking up the torque converter. the tcu only turns it on in 4th and 5th gear. it sends a varying dutycycle pwm, releasing/holding occasionally, depending on load, turbine speed, and output speed.

since the arguement of the torque conv, is the energy loss associated with it, im thinking of locking up the tq conv **after** the car gets in motion.

after some more research, i found out that the tcu will power the trans without engine rpm and load input from the ecu. it warns of "great loss of fuel economy". missing tps input will give you a jerky ride. maybe i might give the onboard tcu a chance. im doubting that it will allow me to take over control of the converter solenoid.

the optishift (and other custom tcu's) are great, but cost a fortune (for me), especially since i can get a microcontroller to output some pwm - on/off signals easily.
thanks to milzpix for the input. i like how you took the powerglide initiative.

to trans or not to trans, everyone has to do a cost to benefit evaluation while making this decision, for their conversion.
the benefits of including the trans outweigh the cost in my case:
benefits;
- very high starting torques (upto 33:1 with torque converter)
- less power needed by motor 
- load matching in all kinds of driving conditions
cost;
- more weight from trans and tq conv (in my case, 190lb)
- more complexity, especially with custom controller.

i have the next three days off, so hopefully, i can be finished with the trans mount and coupling. still waiting for the flywheel. was supposed to be here on saturday. damned that ebay seller.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

mailman just delivered this package









came out of a 2003 540i sport. after opening it i thought that i got the wrong item; this flywheel weighs 2 lb !! i was thinking it was some kind of flywheel sleeve/ adapter, but its the real deal. it was a big gamble i took. and it paid off. bmw must have really shaved off the weight in this model year, to include an ultra light flywheel.

i see the folks at the bimmer forums paying upwards of $700 for a 15 lb aluminum aftermarket flywheel. what a waste! this one cost me 45$. 

so, the case for the torque converter gets stronger.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

Cool! That doesn't have a Torque converter though. How's that gonna work?


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

That isn't a flywheel - its call a flex plate. The flex plate mounts to the crank like a flywheel and then you bolt the torque converter to the flexplate. The converter has to be mounted in the transmission before it is mounted to the engine so the flex plate can be attached to the torque converter after you bolt the transmission to the engine.

Those aluminum 15 pound flywheels are for clutch/ standard transmissions - not for automatics. With an automatic the weight of the torque converter takes the place of the weight of the flywheel.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

PaulS said:


> That isn't a flywheel - its call a flex plate. The flex plate mounts to the crank like a flywheel and then you bolt the torque converter to the flexplate. The converter has to be mounted in the transmission before it is mounted to the engine so the flex plate can be attached to the torque converter after you bolt the transmission to the engine.
> 
> Those aluminum 15 pound flywheels are for clutch/ standard transmissions - not for automatics. With an automatic the weight of the torque converter takes the place of the weight of the flywheel.


SOrry, wrong terminology on my part. So why do you need this if you're not using a starter motor? Or are yhou bolting your coupling to this flex plate? My ICE has a small metal plate that bolts with 4 bolts to the ICE and this attackes to the crank on my car...

The crank is irrelevant. I wish I cojuld saw that bugger off...I think it's integral to the TC though. (structurally speaking)


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

As I said in my earlier post, The flex plate links the torque converter to your engines crankshaft - it allows the engine to spin the transmission so you go somplace. In your conversion you will attach the flex plate to your electric motor and then the torque converter to the flex plate so your electric motor will turn the transmission giving you movement.


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

PaulS said:


> As I said in my earlier post, The flex plate links the torque converter to your engines crankshaft - it allows the engine to spin the transmission so you go somplace. In your conversion you will attach the flex plate to your electric motor and then the torque converter to the flex plate so your electric motor will turn the transmission giving you movement.


Ah ok...I didn't know it's name. Thanks. Yes, I need that flex plate....it's really on my crankshaft but good with torcs bolts.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just to clear up a small but important detail:

There is no lag or jerk when using an aux pump on an automatic transmission.

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=95d1c812.mp4

I can literally go forward or reverse one quarter inch at a time if I need to. Smoothly with inch-by-inch control.

That is because the frictions are engaged and do not need the main pump to turn first (which would cause the delay).


Yes, even if using a torque converter, you would have a delay and jerk on initial engagement unless your controller was set to "idle".

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Just to clear up a small but important detail:
> 
> There is no lag or jerk when using an aux pump on an automatic transmission.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the aux pump really does the trick! That's cool.


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## PaulS (Sep 11, 2012)

Mizlplix, what are the specs on your pump and pump motor?
Pressure, flow, amp draw at pressure?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Shurflo-8030813239-150psi-12volt-viton-seals/valves, Santoprene diaphragm (no problems with ATF if kept under 220F), 1.8GPM, with pressure switch. 7 amps at 150PSI, dead-headed.


pump-$75-$125 depending on the model selected.

In the mean time, I found out that these pumps will pump the same pressure. The stated pressure is the switch pressure. SO, it is actually possible to vary the pressure shut off by changing the switches, which are sold separately.

There is a larger unit too at 3.5GPM.

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Shurflo-8030813239-150psi-12volt-viton-seals/valves, Santoprene diaphragm (no problems with ATF if kept under 220F), 1.8GPM, with pressure switch. 7 amps at 150PSI, dead-headed.
> 
> 
> pump-$75-$125 depending on the model selected.
> ...


So the pump consumes 84 watts? That's not bad. Range would not suffer too much with that. How do you feel your range is as compared to manuals?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, one last time.......the aux. pump runs off of the 12vdc battery. Not the pack. It is charged by the dc/dc converter during charging. 

It in no way affects the pack or vehicle range. 

A pure math calc. Of my pack size vs vehicle draw is about 58 miles @ 50mph

I have driven 53 miles before with some pack left. I anticipate it will do the complete 58 miles easily. 

So, my guess is that it is roughly equal to a manual transmission in range. 

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Ok, one last time.......the aux. pump runs off of the 12vdc battery. Not the pack. It is charged by the dc/dc converter during charging.
> 
> It in no way affects the pack or vehicle range.
> 
> ...




Well doesn't the DC-DC converter use pack voltage to create the accessories power? I mean...eventually it comes out of the pack...no? Unless I'm missing something....that's a great range btw. What batteries are you running?


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

oh Calb never mind


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Originally Posted by mizlplix
> The aux. pump runs off of the 12vdc battery. Not the pack. It is charged by the dc/dc converter during charging.


The dc/dc runs during charging, It does not run during driving unless I manually turn on a switch in a "dead aux. battery" event.

I feel the range has more to do with the light weight of the vehicle plus the flat terrain and the warm climate. 

I used to drive my old Jet Electrica (3800Lbs) to work,








18 miles each way, (38 miles/charge) and It had 225Ah floodies. (new batteries)


After 14 months of driving, I was charging at work to get home dependably.

Miz


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## Jamie EV (Oct 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> The dc/dc runs during charging, It does not run during driving unless I manually turn on a switch in a "dead aux. battery" event.
> 
> I feel the range has more to do with the light weight of the vehicle plus the flat terrain and the warm climate.
> 
> ...


Ooooh I ssee....yeah I guess if the accessories battery is deep cycle and it charges at home, then really, you brought your amps with you....84 watts wonm't drain the accessory batt in a 1 hour trip so...essentially the aux pump runs on house current not pack current. Fair distinction.


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

hey guys. I'm about to start my EV conversion and my donor car has zf5hp24 as well and since this is a great thread I was wondering if there has been any update?


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