# Siemens AC Motors, Azure Dynamics Controllers, and Honda Question



## Zap-n-Roll (Mar 3, 2011)

Greetings, EVers. I was just wondering--would a Siemens AC motor "care" which way it spun in an EV? I have a Honda, and the transmission spins backwards in comparison with the transmissions of every other car manufacturer. I don't want to get bogged down in a hassle with rebuilding AC motors and the like.

Also, will an Azure Dynamics controller like the DMOC645 be able to drive a backwards-running Siemens motor? I'll expand that by asking whether the DMOC645, with its rated voltage limit of 336v, can run a Siemens motor.

I'm especially interested in the Siemens 1PV5135-4WS28 motor. The motor has a rated voltage of 650v. Can you run it at 336v? Can you increase the amps to get the same kilowatt ratings?

Would I have to get into a long, complex controller hacking hassle to get the controller to work? Is there an EV person who can program the Azure controller for this Siemens motor?

Any thoughts? Thank you in advance!


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Zap-n-Roll said:


> Greetings, EVers. I was just wondering--would a Siemens AC motor "care" which way it spun in an EV? I have a Honda, and the transmission spins backwards in comparison with the transmissions of every other car manufacturer. I don't want to get bogged down in a hassle with rebuilding AC motors and the like.


Yes. AC doesn't mind.



> Also, will an Azure Dynamics controller like the DMOC645 be able to drive a backwards-running Siemens motor?


Yes, it can.



> I'll expand that by asking whether the DMOC645, with its rated voltage limit of 336v, can run a Siemens motor.


Yes, it's designed and build to drive the Siemens 1PV5135 4WS14.



> I'm especially interested in the Siemens 1PV5135-4WS28 motor. The motor has a rated voltage of 650v. Can you run it at 336v?


I guess, it can.



> Can you increase the amps to get the same kilowatt ratings?


No. Why not stick with the 1PV5135 4WS14?



> Would I have to get into a long, complex controller hacking hassle to get the controller to work?


It's no plug and play. 



> Is there an EV person who can program the Azure controller for this Siemens motor?


http://forums.evtv.me/?forum=270148


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Zap-n-Roll said:


> Greetings, EVers. I was just wondering--would a Siemens AC motor "care" which way it spun in an EV? I have a Honda, and the transmission spins backwards in comparison with the transmissions of every other car manufacturer. I don't want to get bogged down in a hassle with rebuilding AC motors and the like.
> 
> Also, will an Azure Dynamics controller like the DMOC645 be able to drive a backwards-running Siemens motor? I'll expand that by asking whether the DMOC645, with its rated voltage limit of 336v, can run a Siemens motor.
> 
> ...


No, yes, yes, yes, no, maybe, somewhere but I don't know who 

ACIM are symmetrical with regards to rotation direction. Just swap 2 of the 3 phase leads. You also have to similarly adjust the encoder. Often this can be a parameter choice.

Half voltage reduces base frequency by half and peak power the same for the given current capability drive. Power rating is sensitive to current. Higher currents will be tolerated for shorter time. The drive is likely the primary limit to current.

The interface to the control is likely complex unless you know what you're doing or are handed some magic black box. I'm sure there are those who are expert with the system. Finding them is another question.

Welcome to the forum,

major


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

This isn't the controller you want for this motor, if you ask me. There are two significant issues:

1. You will never reach the potential of this motor with a low voltage controller. These high voltage Siemens motors have relatively low torque, and develop their power by spinning up to high speeds. To reach those speeds they require the rated voltage. The power electronics in controllers, and the windings in a motor are such that there really are actually 3 hard limits--we usually talk about the power limit, but there are also current and voltage limits so you can't just compensate lower than rated voltage with higher than rated current (or vice versa). So this motor would largely be wasted hooked up to the 645.

2. Probably a bigger problem is that the control software on the 645 is not designed for this motor. It is specifically tuned for the lower voltage Siemens motors that Azure Dynamics was using. Control software relies on a correct electrical model of the motor and must accurately know, for instance, the time constant of the rotor. If these parameters were different in your motor, the control software wouldn't work well. Since the manufacturer is bankrupt, there is no chance that they could reprogram it or retune it. Since Jack Rickard, who has most of these controllers, seems to have a greater supply of the matched motors than he has the inverters, it is unlikely that his crowd will try to make it work for other motors. Since the source code is not available, you wouldn't be able to do it yourself, even if you knew the correct parameters, unless you were going to reprogram the control software from scratch. If you have the wherewithal to do that, build your own controller from the ground up using a suitable (ie, high voltage) power stage.

If you want a controller that will work for this motor, your best bet is to call up the Good Men at Rinehart Motion Systems. I believe that they have available high voltage controllers, but they won't be cheap. It is reasonably possible that your motor is one of the ones they have characterized already and would be ready to go with their software. If not, it is possible that they would allow you to send them your motor and they would characterize it and tune for it. That DEFINITELY won't be cheap.

That's really why these high voltage Siemens motors are so tantalizing yet so frustrating. They are monsters, and well engineered machines, but unless you can build your own controller, or are willing to spend 10K on one, there are not a lot of options.

Even if you get a controller, there will be some other challenges (not insurmountable, but still need to take into account). Most DC/DC converters and chargers are not designed for such high voltage battery pack. So you have to consider that.

On the bright side, one of the biggest issues with high voltage packs from the past isn't a problem now--in the Lead Acid days, there was kind of a limit to how small of a battery you could get, and so it was impractical to have enough of them to have that high of a voltage. With Lithium, you have plenty of options--for instance a 650V pack made out of 40ah CALBs would make for a good sized pack.

I hope this helps. Good luck!


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## Zap-n-Roll (Mar 3, 2011)

You all have been very helpful, and I want to thank you!

It looks like these Siemens motors are too difficult. It comes down to the issue of the controller, for the most part. Kind of a bummer.

Well, the Honda is a stick shift, so I guess I'll reconsider something like a WarP 9 or a Kostov K10!

Thanks a bunch. Happy EVing.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Well hopefully we are giving good advice. A lot of people end up gravitating back to the good old series wound DC(I almost did), as it is the best combination of cheap and easy.

Just out of curiosity, do you have one of the PV5135-4w28 motors already?


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## Zap-n-Roll (Mar 3, 2011)

Nope. User 'remotecontact' has a listing in the classifieds for the motor and controller for a price almost too low to believe. The motor is rated for 90 horsepower, making it an almost perfect substitute for a WarP 9. The chance to get regenerative braking and a single drive transmission makes me want an AC motor, but my science skills are pretty weak. I've seen plenty of internet videos of cars with stick shifts and Warp 9s, and so DC is still plenty tantalizing to me. I live in a city of less than a million people, so you can imagine that the 65-80 mile range one might expect with Sinopoly 180s or 200s in a 144v configuration would be plenty acceptable. I do 99% of my driving in town, and I consider highway, interstate travel to be a form of masochism. I'm into "living small", and I hate sending money to a supermassive corporation that pays less in taxes than I do, either proportionately or absolutely. (If I remember correctly, Exxon or one of the other biggies literally paid nothing in federal income taxes and actually received billions in rebates and subsidies from the government.)

You can contact 'remotecontact' for more information about his motors and controllers. I need something easier, and I believe DC will be the way to go. I guess AC motors have a ways to go before they're for the beginners.

Interesting conversation! More reason to push DC conversions as a realistic and desirable alternative for the Average Joe looking to ditch his ICE. AC is a really cool idea, though, and I hope advances in computers make them a mainstream option for the DIYers. I'm aware of some AC motor and controller combinations, but nothing that really matches the compatibility and power of a WarP 9 or Kostov K10.

Please keep in mind that I'm generating these thoughts based on advice and information I've gathered in these forums. I may not be the best and last word on whether the Siemens motor and controller I've discussed are right for your project. If you're interested in tackling an AC conversion, just keep posting your questions here and I'm sure the denizens of the forum will help you in any way they can. And do look up remotecontact's classified posting, as the price for the motor he's selling is amazing. If you have the ability, it might be worth your while.

Cheerio!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Ok so that is a different story. The motors that remoteconnect is selling are the ones specifically made for Azure dynamics and have been rewound at a lower voltage. The dmoc645 is specifically designed for that motor, so the stuff I said above doesn't apply. Not to say there would be no challenges--the controller doesn't have a canbus interface yet, but Jack Rickard's crowd is working on that.


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## Zap-n-Roll (Mar 3, 2011)

Okay, Hollie, thanks for the clarification. My sense is that this AC motor might still be worth it. I might not be able to get it into the Honda, but I might be able to hire someone who can get it done. I could pay them part of the money I save on the motor and controller, which would normally cost over $11k. I will revisit this topic later when I've had a bit more chance to think things through.

Actually, before I sign off, may I ask whether remotecontact's motor and controller would still be rated at 90 horsepower (with the expected 25 horsepower continuous) at the 336v? This really boils down to power--I'd go with DC if I had to. I need at least 65mph cruising speed. The car weighs 2350 stock. 28 city, 37 highway. 5 speed, 4000rpm at 80mph. It's a 2007 Honda Fit. (One would really have to shoehorn everything into the engine compartment, it's so small. There's plenty of room in the back for more batteries if you torch cut around the spare tire bay.)

I'll save my questions about CANBUS for a later post.

This website is a gem. Thanks for all the help.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes. Since the motors were wound for the lower voltage, you will get the full power out at that level. In fact if you tried to run it at 650v you would destroy the motor.


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