# Chorus harmonically controlled AC motors



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

These look very intriguing. If they behave as promised they might be especially well adapted for wheel motors where high starting torque is needed:


> The Chorus Star concept utilizes concentrated, high phase order windings which allows the beneficial use of harmonics (temporal, spatial, and overload). Consequently, a Chorus machine can achieve much higher torque densities than a traditional 3 phase motor, but with no cost penalty. Chorus Star machines are superior to three-phase machines as well as permanent-magnet machines.
> 
> *Chorus Star* is ideal for most motor applications of >1hp up into the megawatt range. Applications include engine starters, pumps, fans, compressors, constant torque loads, and generators.
> 
> ...


This is interesting:


> Any AC induction frame can be rewound to a Chorus Meshcon configuration. All components used in Chorus Meshcon are available off-the-shelf today - the genius of Chorus Meshcon is that a different configuration of the same components provides far greater benefits. What this means is that the cost of adapting existing induction machines to a Chorus Meshcon approach are minimal.


http://www.chorusmotors.com/exec_summary.shtml
http://www.chorusmotors.com/demo/index.demo.html
http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/Archives/f84bbc67dba38010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is the most recent article I could find on the Chorus motor.
http://www.ultracapacitors.org/ultr...d-via-ultracapacitors-and-a-chorus-motor.html
Unfortunately the author works for Chorus. I'd like to see some independent verification of it's performance, or an application of the motor in an ev. It sounds like the answer for electric cars, more power and cheaper components. This motor should be taking over the world. What am I missing? Are they charging insane fees for licensing?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Oh, wow - reading the technical literature about this motor, of which I was highly skeptical of at first, I'll admit - really gave me a headache.

That said, it really does appear to have merit. The essential benefit is this: The more phases in a motor the higher the number of the harmonic needed to oppose the torque produced by the fundamental. I.e. - all harmonics below such *contribute* to the torque produced, rather than subtract from it.

Downside: motor manufacturers have to "unlearn" a 100+ years of winding motors a particular way. 

It is also still not clear to me if, e.g., a 15 phase motor is driven by a 15 phase inverter or if 5 of the 15 phases are connected together (somehow) so a regular 3 phase inverter can be used.

At any rate, if 15 half bridges are required for a 15 phase, 2-pole motor that would sort of suck, but at least the current rating for each half bridge would be substantially less for the equivalent power 3 phase inverter.

Cool link - thanks for posting it!


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## buzzforb (Aug 16, 2008)

What kind of drive would this thing take? Ac controllers are alreasy difficult for anybody but a seasoned power electronics guy. How much will this new winding muddy that water even more?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They seem to be saying the main difference in control is on the software side, which they provide.


> The drive electronics are literally the same ones used in three-phase inverters, though they are configured and controlled differently. In many ways, Chorus Meshcon achieves its technical superiority through changing the motor software.





> *Q*_ - Does Chorus Meshcon cost more?_
> 
> *A* - No. Chorus Meshcon is considerably less expensive to mass produce than a 3 phase induction drive with the same performance. It is also far less expensive than any brushless dc (permanent magnet) solutions, because Chorus Meshcon does not require the use of any expensive rare earth materials for magnetization.
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> They seem to be saying the main difference in control is on the software side, which they provide.
> 
> 
> [/size][/font]


Guess I should have read the FAQ instead of skipping over to the demo and the PDF files...


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## buzzforb (Aug 16, 2008)

Without a doubt, this looks promising, but it has nothing to do with you and i because even i have fwould could wire the motor in this way, we do not the software to run it. Based on their website, they will be nodifferent than any other promising new technology, they will be glad to sure it with all of us just as soon as somebody i willing to pay them loads of money for the license. Unfortunatly it seems this will be lumped with other stories such as EEstor and affordable LiFePo4. You can tell i have been discouraged by The Man just a little bit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Guess I should have read the FAQ instead of skipping over to the demo and the PDF files...


There is a lot of information on that site, I haven't even gotten to the PDF's. Need to let my brain cool down


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

buzzforb said:


> Unfortunatly it seems this will be lumped with other stories such as EEstor and affordable LiFePo4. You can tell i have been discouraged by The Man just a little bit.


While I feel your frustration I think this is a little more solid than EEstore and the like. For one their motor technology is being used in the Wheeltug application and it seems as if you can order a demonstration unit for testing. No idea of the cost of course. If anyone here has some sort of electronics business you might try and contact them and see what the deal is. They are probably more likely to respond to a business than some random individual.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> If anyone here has some sort of electronics business you might try and contact them and see what the deal is.


Funny you should mention that... I put a request in today. We'll see what they have to say and I'll share it here.

***

Caveat - not to sound too cynical, but I just noticed that WheelTug has been around since 2005 yet no one seems to be using it yet. Apparently Delta and Boeing, et al., have looked into it but aren't using it. I suspect it either isn't practical (i.e. - the force applied to the nosewheel is very different than what it was designed for) or else the licensing terms with Chorus are too restrictive, greedy or both.... We'll see, I suppose...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I got a response back from chorus motors/borealis but it didn't have any substance to it. Just that they are "very flexible" with regards to licensing and royalty arrangements"... Well, I suppose you have to be if you haven't sold your brilliant and revolutionary idea to a single major company in 3 years...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did they give you any impression that they were going to follow up? Hopefully "flexible" means they are eager to work with an interested party and provide support. Any talk about a demo setup? Or do they want you to rewind your own motor, build your own controller, and buy the software from them?


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## buzzforb (Aug 16, 2008)

I truly love what America is becoming, don't you. I have an idea. Why don't we take some of the bailout and use it to buy the license on this technology that nobody else seems to want. I guess nobody is interested in this ground breaking way of winding and driving a motor or it maybe its just smoke and mirrors.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More like nobody has made the necessary leap to understand that it's more important for us to develop better EV technology than prop up failing corporations.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Did they give you any impression that they were going to follow up? Hopefully "flexible" means they are eager to work with an interested party and provide support. Any talk about a demo setup? Or do they want you to rewind your own motor, build your own controller, and buy the software from them?


Unsure on all points, so I asked point blank what exactly they license: software, hardware, or just some hokey block diagram. They do have a lot of patents, and I've read some of them, but patents are very misleading sources of information most of the time and usually purposefully obfuscate details to prevent IP theft (after all, what better way to steal an idea than to duplicate it from a patent and take your chances you won't get sued...).

At any rate, I just sent the follow-up e-mail a few minutes ago so hopefully I'll get a response back today.

*PS* - I'm thinking of applying for bank-holding company status myself and applying for some of that TARP bailout money... *I* could do a lot with just a billion or two... no need for more than that...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

It is indeed software they license and it was also implied that said software does NOT use the standard triple half-bridge as used in every 3-ph inverter. I will press for more details but at this point it sounds flaky/impractical. It is unclear whether the motor must have a custom winding configuration as well...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since theoretically you can't legally sell a product without their license I don't understand why they are not more forthcoming with details. Not a good sign. Have you been able to get any examples of their products in use, or the names of some other licensees of their product?
Do they expect someone to purchase their software without seeing it controlling a working motor?
As to the Wheel Tug, I thought I saw something about it's projected use in 2010. 5 years or so is not a bad lead time when they are attaching something to the front wheel of a jet liner and all the tests and regulations they have to pass.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Well, I can at least understand their reticence: a patent gives you the ability/right to sue someone, yes, but you still have to go to all the trouble to sue them. This is actually the business model of some IP companies, especially in semiconductor design.... they "leak" just enough info about their IP to allow a much bigger competitor to "rip them off" then they sue the bejeezus out of them, win, and make their money without having to go to all the trouble of actually designing a working product. Not the sort of philosophy I subcribe, but hey, it's technically an honest living.

My main issue with the Wheel Tug being the *only* practical application they've managed to come up with so far is that it is obscure and fraught with regulatory compliance issues. Frankly, it boggles my mind why they wouldn't have gone for one of the traditional series DC motor roles like a crane hoist motor. If nothing else, there's a lot more demand for cranes than airplane tugs in the world. Of course, the very best application I can think of to demonstrate their technology, both from a commercial prospects and suitability perspective, would be the drive motor in an electric vehicle...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> My main issue with the Wheel Tug being the *only* practical application they've managed to come up with so far is that it is obscure and fraught with regulatory compliance issues. Frankly, it boggles my mind why they wouldn't have gone for one of the traditional series DC motor roles like a crane hoist motor. If nothing else, there's a lot more demand for cranes than airplane tugs in the world.


I wonder if they could be cost competitive with a series DC motor. My guess is probably not. Series DC is hard to beat for cost plus low end torque. With the wheel tug they are replacing an entire vehicle with a built in solution. Also, from a marketing standpoint it's fairly impressive:"Our little motor can move an airliner!" However, I do agree it's somewhat of an obscure niche to fill.


> Of course, the very best application I can think of to demonstrate their technology, both from a commercial prospects and suitability perspective, would be the drive motor in an electric vehicle...


Indeed, and the perfect application for their claimed superior low end torque over conventional AC motors while allowing high speed operation.
If you haven't, you might ask them if anyone has used their technology in a passenger EV.


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

I understand the skepticism, given all the scams that have been hoisted on us before. However even a simple google search on the first page finds the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorus_Motors

http://www.choruscars.com/

http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=14749

Now if you follow the links on the Wikipedia page you will find press releases on the actual Boeing and Delta web sites with information about actual TESTING and contracts. It sounds like the Wheeltug product is on schedule for use in 2009 and 2010. 

Honestly though, if you were in their shoes, would you bother with selling single motors to DIY'ers when you have a product that could legitimately be used in all forms of transportation in the future?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ive seen those links and they don't tell us much about traction motor applications in passenger vehicles. Pushing their products for use in hybrids isn't taking full advantage of their claimed strengths. Selling traction motors to DIYers would get more product out the door and probably match or surpass the volume of wheel tug sales. So yes, I would make an effort to sell my product to anyone who wanted to buy it.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

After reading over the info on the sites, I noticed it said that in a Meshcon motor each phase is contained in a single slot. Does that mean each phase is a single coil?


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

I am curious what you guys think of Raser Technologies motor design compared to the chorus meshcon design? Could elements of them be combined to gain even more power than on their own?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

unclematt said:


> I am curious what you guys think of Raser Technologies motor design compared to the chorus meshcon design?


And what is Raser Technologies' motor design?

major


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> And what is Raser Technologies' motor design?
> 
> major


You mean you don't know?  j/k

Raser Technologies has an electric motor design that uses resonant LCR circuits to energize series connected wound stator and rotor.

Patent here


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

unclematt said:


> Raser Technologies has an electric motor design that uses resonant LCR circuits to energize series connected wound stator and rotor.
> 
> Patent here


Hi uncle,

I've followed Raser for the past 4 or 5 years. Thought I'd read all of Jack Kerlin's patents. Not sure I saw that one. Your sited patent is similar to others. I've talked with them. Raser at one time claimed they were beyond that approach. They never do say what they have. Near as I can tell, just a bunch of hype and PR. To my knowledge, they have never equipped a vehicle with their motor design and had it go faster than 20 mph. They've been trying to sell their technology for 6 years or more. Wonder why nobody has bought into it?

I hope they do have something of value. But I don't trust them. Both this Raser approach and Chorus add complexity and thereby cost and uncertainty to the motor drive package. What's wrong with the proven motor drive technology we currently have? If these guys can validate something new and bring it to market competitively, great. But for a diy-er, just a novelty to watch. Unobtainium.

Regards,

major


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

unclematt said:


> You mean you don't know?  j/k
> 
> Raser Technologies has an electric motor design that uses resonant LCR circuits to energize series connected wound stator and rotor.
> 
> Patent here


I agree with your post, but doesn't the same thing apply to the chorus motor company? Where is their product on the shelf waiting for me to purchase? What have they accomplished over the last 5 years?

Why do these "new and improved" electric motor designs die on the drawing board and never make it to production. I will tell you why - laziness! These guys expect to come up with an idea and then sit back and let the world come to them, assuming their advancements provide real improvements to begin with. Well, the world already has motors that do most of what they want, so they decline to rush to these new designs, especially when you can't even buy one off the shelf, or need a zillion dollars to buy a motor made custom by them. This mindset has a lot in common with our domestic car industry, and it is just lazy and pathetic.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Opps, I meant to quote your last post major. Sorry about that.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Both this Raser approach and Chorus add complexity and thereby cost and uncertainty to the motor drive package. What's wrong with the proven motor drive technology we currently have?


Well they both claim to reduce costs over current technology and improve low end torque, potentially ending up with a smaller, cheaper, yet more powerful motor. If they can actually deliver on even one of the three that would be a significant improvement. Of course that's a big "if"


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Well they both claim to reduce costs over current technology and improve low end torque, potentially ending up with a smaller, cheaper, yet more powerful motor. If they can actually deliver on even one of the three that would be a significant improvement. Of course that's a big "if"


I think the problem is they just want to license their idea to others so they don't have to manufacture and take the risk their motor wouldn't sell. They are much too important to go to the trouble of acquiring capital and actually producing something like everyone else has had to do in the history of mankind. Either that, or their claims are just like major described: vaporware!

I would love to see a representative of Raser Technologies or Chorus Motors come on this thread and actually defend their "business models" as it relates to their supposed motor design breakthroughs. I triple dog dare them to do so!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

unclematt said:


> I agree with your post, but doesn't the same thing apply to the chorus motor company?


At least they tell you what they are doing.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> At least they tell you what they are doing.


So does Raser. They have always said they were not interested in manufacturing, only licensing. THAT is the problem. Instead of producing a tangible product and make it availble to the general public, they try to take the easy way out and just wait for people to come to them. Its no wonder that Chorus and Raser don't have much success with that kind of mind set.

I just fired off an email to Vice President David West of Raser Technologies asking him to come to our forum and defend his business model, and to tell us why when we can expect his motors to be available to the public. I'm not holding my breath...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

unclematt said:


> So does Raser.


Hey uncle,

Gotta disagree. Raser has always been secretive about their technology. Yeah, if you look hard enough, you can find some patents, but those do not tell you what they are actually using. Never a white paper, like for SAE or such. Even though they display mock-ups at the SAE shows. Never a presentation explaining the tech side, just the same old marketing crap.

I'd be surprised if David West responds. I didn't think he was with Raser anymore. Keep us posted.

Regards,

major


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hey uncle,
> 
> Gotta disagree. Raser has always been secretive about their technology. Yeah, if you look hard enough, you can find some patents, but those do not tell you what they are actually using. Never a white paper, like for SAE or such. Even though they display mock-ups at the SAE shows. Never a presentation explaining the tech side, just the same old marketing crap.
> 
> ...


While Raser may have been less than forthcoming about aspects of their design, since the first day I logged onto their site over 5 years ago, they have always stated their business model was focused on licensing their technology, not manufacturing it. THAT is the problem. By now they could have sold HUNDREDS of motors to DIY'ers and made a real name for hemselves in the industry. I used to own Raser stock, but when it became apparent they were not focused on delivering a product to the public in a reasonable time, I sold it all. And I am not the only one, because since then their stock has tanked!

Now look at Chorus. Their patent was filed many years ago, but ZERO motors available to the public even now. I guess I just don't understand the mindset, thats all. Its VERY self defeating. How hard would it be to gather up some capital and have a Chinese manufacturer turn out a few hundred motors for sale to the public? Not very...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could always sign up for Raser's testing program, looks as if they've made it really easy 
http://www.rasertech.com/test_demonstration.html
How hard would it be for them, or Chorus, to take 2 motors of the same size, one built to their specifications and one conventional, then have independent test results posted showing their performance? Or provide the two motors to be rented out to interested parties for testing? They could be smaller motors so that shipping and such wouldn't be ridiculous.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You could always sign up for Raser's testing program, looks as if they've made it really easy


Hi JRP3,

Looks easy???? Think again. It would cost you big time. These guys play with your money, not theirs. 

But what the heck, go for it.

major


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hi JRP3,
> 
> Looks easy???? Think again. It would cost you big time. These guys play with your money, not theirs.
> 
> ...


I agree major. I applied to their program and never even heard from them. However, if I had, I am sure I would have been quoted over $20K, and probably a lot more.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Hi JRP3,
> 
> Looks easy???? Think again. It would cost you big time. These guys play with your money, not theirs.
> 
> ...


I thought my sarcasm was evident. Apparently I need to work on that


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I have not bothered following up with them for the simple reason that they do not have actual, physical proof of their technology in action. You would think that after 5 years in existence, and having filed for dozens of patents (at no small cost) they would have ponied up their own capital to at least produce a "proof of concept" motor/inverter. That they haven't either means they are incredibly naive or else their technology doesn't work outside of the theoretical world of MathCAD.

As Carl Sagan famously quipped, "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof!" The "wheeltug" is not my definition of extraordinary proof.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> As Carl Sagan famously quipped, "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof!" The "wheeltug" is not my definition of extraordinary proof.


While it's not the sort of proof I would want to see it may actually be enough. The question is what sort of power is required to move a 737 at 20mph, how large are the normal tugs that move them, and could this same thing be done efficiently with a conventional AC motor? My guess is that the claimed superior startup torque of the Chorus may be what makes this work and is therefore proof of their claims. If you could hook up a conventional AC motor of the same size and get the same results someone probably would have done so already.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

New article about Chorus and the Wheel Tug:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0901_flying_hybrids_technologue/index.html]
Not sure I agree with the logic of using a better motor to eliminate the battery pack in a hybrid to make it cheaper, I'd rather see them eliminate the ICE and add more batteries to make it an EV.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

How much easier would it have been for Chorus Motors (and Raser too) to have just contracted with a Chinese manufacturer to produce motors for DIY conversions than go through all they have trying to get their motor accepted in aviation? Again I say that the focus is on the wrong path with these companies.

How many motors have they sold to aerospace buyers SO FAR? I believe the answer is ZERO. SO zero profit as well. Now compare that to all the buyers they would have from people like those that post on this forum daily if they did a limited production run of several hundred motors. They would have proved their motor in the real world, created a lot of goodwill, created a great reputation, and made money at the same time instead of WASTING 5 years promoting their motor to aerospace.

I just don't think these companies understand the world of DIY electric vehicles and all the opportunities they have blown or ignored because they think too highly of themselves and think they never have to take any risk. No risk taken, no reward received. Build these motors, and they will come.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

unclematt said:


> I just don't think these companies understand the world of DIY electric vehicles and all the opportunities they have blown or ignored because they think too highly of themselves and think they never have to take any risk. No risk taken, no reward received. Build these motors, and they will come.


 You're right, they don't understand the DIY EV market and it's easy to see why.
The DIY EV market is a new market. Yes it's been around forever, but it's really only in the last 2 years or so that it has generated any volume, especially the last year. Heck this forum didn't even exist 2 years ago. So in that respect I can see why companies haven't really targeted it. 5 years ago it probably made more sense to target the airline industry and that's what they have been doing. I'm sure the markup on their product is magnitudes higher for the airline industry than what could be charged to the DIY market. It's similar to why Tesla made a 100K sports car instead of an economy car. Both Tesla and (potentially), Chorus have targeted a market where an electric solution didn't even exist. I mean how much do you think a conventional airline tug costs? Wild guess $100K wouldn't surprise me so if they can sell a wheel tug for $70K that is more versatile the airline saves and Chorus makes way more than they could selling to the DIY EV market. However I agree that they could and should be doing both.
The realities of manufacturing favor having a guaranteed buyer for your product before you begin manufacturing. That's why AC Propulsion made a deal with BMW to sell over 500 units for the Mini instead of trying to sell individual units one at a time to the general public. If they were smart they would have used that volume deal to manufacture some extras to sell but they may have had to sign an exclusive deal and simply can't.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Is some kind of testing possible here? Can we rewind a motor to operate according to the Chorus design and test? What controller would be used, and how much (if any) modification would be necessary?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's not just the winding, it's also the way the motor is controlled by the Chorus software.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's not just the winding, it's also the way the motor is controlled by the Chorus software.


Hey Jrp3,
Check me on my understanding of the chorus system:

They alter the "span" or the spacing of phases by energizing them with harmonics instead of mechanical switching of the mesh connections.

Would this mean an inverter with as many output contacts as the number of phases in the motor?

When you start getting up to 17 phases (as they had in their presentation), does that mean an inverter with 17 output contacts? I am probably ignorant aboout this, but isn't that a little unusual for an inverter/controller?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe so but my knowledge is too limited to give you a definitive answer. I'm still poking around trying to find information.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I believe so but my knowledge is too limited to give you a definitive answer. I'm still poking around trying to find information.


Well, here is their latest patent LINK.

And here is one for their motor/generator design LINK .

I have only made it to page 18 of that last patent, but my previous post may have been off base. Unless I am getting it wrong, they use electronic switching means to energize motor phase terminals. I will post more after I finish reading.


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> New article about Chorus and the Wheel Tug:
> http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0901_flying_hybrids_technologue/index.html]
> Not sure I agree with the logic of using a better motor to eliminate the battery pack in a hybrid to make it cheaper, I'd rather see them eliminate the ICE and add more batteries to make it an EV.


They have a paper on using their motor in Series Hybrids (http://www.choruscars.com/ChorusCars_SMMA_presentation.pdf) as well as a website about how their motor is particularly suitable for Series Hybrids. (www.ChorusCars.com)

I like the fact that they can eliminate the batteries, which on the Volt are going to run $25K, and rely upon capacitors or ultra-capacitors for a Chorus using series hybrid. They are using WheelTug to turn Boeing 737NGs into series hybrids when driving around airports, so.... 

At the very least, the ability to produce 10 times standard torque for those rare occassions (like going from zero to merging into the highway) is particularly nice. Most (if not all) standard car motors are oversized for those rare occurances where peak torque is needed. At least the Chorus Motor can provide that torque without needing to be oversized in such a way that part of that oversizing is rarely used. 

Something else I noticed about this thread, and whether or not they should produce the motor themsleves for sale DIY's or the general public - It seems to me that electric motors are a 'commodity' product, with thin profit margins. Therefore it would make more sense to go for those first 'high revenue' niches (like aerospace where they can save $60K/month for a 737NG - per the motor trend magazine article) and lease the units for half the savings every month. If I were them I'd put all my resources to the market with the highest revenue ($30,000/month per pair of motors) and capture that first. With that sort of revenue coming from every plane, and there beign almost two thousand 737NG, I'd put ALL my resources towards it. 

What is interesting is that after following the 'liscencing model' like raser, is that they have now moved to the making WheelTugs themselves.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> I like the fact that they can eliminate the batteries, which on the Volt are going to run $25K, and rely upon capacitors or ultra-capacitors for a Chorus using series hybrid.


I'm afraid I don't follow their logic on this one at all. First of all Ultra caps are very expensive and not as yet capable of delivering any sustained voltages needed in vehicles, so that's pie in the sky talk. Frankly hybrids are a stop gap measure and are crippled by having to carry around two separate technologies, ICE and EV. How much money could they save on the Volt if they eliminated the ICE and it's support components? A 100-150 mile battery pack would better serve the majority of drivers and is quite practical to do in volume right now. Chorus motors mantra of "The battery isn't ready yet" is simply not true. Look at Tesla and now BMW. 
I wonder if Chorus technology is as good as they claim why aren't they partnering with AC Propulsion, Tesla, UQM, etc. to improve their products? The automotive market is far larger than the airline industry, and there is no reason they can't do both with licensing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Chovesh I suspect you are in some way connected with Chorus and Borealis, are you not? You wrote the Wiki entry that I noticed read very much like a press release and I see now some others have questioned your motives in doing so. What say you?


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

Yes I am connected with it, and have been following it for several years, having bought stock in the company and have been following the progress of their technologies from 1995. 

_"I wonder if Chorus technology is as good as they claim why aren't they partnering with AC Propulsion, Tesla, UQM, etc. to improve their products? The automotive market is far larger than the airline industry, and there is no reason they can't do both with licensing."_

I may have a better cake recepie, but it may take me some time and lots of effort to get the attention of Betty Crocker. 

I know that Borealis and Chorus Motors does want to work with Tesla, GM, Chrysler, Tata, and everyone else in the automotive industry worldwide. About 5 months ago the people at Chorus sat down and said to themselves, "After aerospace, what do we want to do with the Chorus motor? Where is the next area that it will make a HUGE difference." A team of about 6-8 held regular meetings, and brought in outside consultants to help in their research and to look into all the hybrid and EV vehicles designs to see where their motor offered the largest advantage. The conclusion was that of all the vehicles out there, that a Series Hybrid, probably with a combination of small number of batteries and some capacitors for those occasional bursts when high torque was needed, was the way to go. It solved some of the basic engineering problems encountered by both permanent magenet motors and 3 phase AC induction motors. 

As a matter of fact, there are several universities that are participating in the GM's and the DOE's http://www.ecocarchallenge.org/ competition, with one of them independently coming to the same conclusion regarding the best hybrid design as a Series Hybrid. Except for the team at Howard University, it seems all the other teams have taken one of two other approaches due to the fact that these routes mean that the parts they need for their designes are largly free. Only the HU team has bucked this trend and decided to go with the the series hybrid approach due to its inherent advantages - with the goal of winning the competition. 

But back to the decision by Chorus Motors - after the internal conclusion that Series Hybrids were where the Chorus Motor could make a HUGE difference, I took upon myself to try to get the word out. The people at Motor Trend magazine have read through the paper given at the SMMA conference and consulted with others, and concluded that the Chorus Motor did represent a something significant, and they published an article that should help the Chorus Motor get the attention of Betty Crocker,..errr..Detroit. 

Thankfully there has been some progress along these lines, with more coming over the next several months. Its an unbelievably slow process, as large an mature companies have an internal inertia and 'way of doing things' that means that some things just take a lot of time. Small companies and entreprenuers can make quick decisions, while larger companies in mature industries take time, lots of it. :-(

One more side note, the Howard University team is proposing to go completely without batteries and only use capacitors (or ultracaps), while the Chorus team came to the conclusion that batteries and capacitors would probably be the most likely design finally adopted. 

_"How much money could they save on the Volt if they eliminated the ICE and it's support components? A 100-150 mile battery pack would better serve the majority of drivers and is quite practical to do in volume right now."_

Going with an ICE working at its most efficient speed, nearly all the time, combined with Chorus Motor could still provide a vehicle with lower production costs. The $25K battery pack of the volt, providing 40 miles for that cost, just isn't going to be able to compete in the category of mass market vehicles that are priced against a Camry or Accord. A "_100-150 mile battery pack_" is very heavy, expensive even with volume, and will not compete in production costs with a Camry, Accord, or Chorus Motor based series hybrid. It can be built, but will be as niche as the Volt, and that is not where Chorus Motors finds its niche.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'm afraid I don't follow their logic on this one at all. First of all Ultra caps are very expensive and not as yet capable of delivering any sustained voltages needed in vehicles, so that's pie in the sky talk. Frankly hybrids are a stop gap measure and are crippled by having to carry around two separate technologies, ICE and EV. How much money could they save on the Volt if they eliminated the ICE and it's support components? A 100-150 mile battery pack would better serve the majority of drivers and is quite practical to do in volume right now. Chorus motors mantra of "The battery isn't ready yet" is simply not true. Look at Tesla and now BMW.
> I wonder if Chorus technology is as good as they claim why aren't they partnering with AC Propulsion, Tesla, UQM, etc. to improve their products? The automotive market is far larger than the airline industry, and there is no reason they can't do both with licensing.


I agree with your last assertion. And I remain unconvinced that profit margins are thin on motors sold to DIY'ers. I welcome some documentation to PROVE that is the case. If the Chorus technology really allows less expensive switching to be used, and little to no changes are needed to assembly lines to create the motors, then WHY would profit margins be low on them? Perhaps their unwillingness to enter the auto and DIY market first is a sign that their motors really aren't more affordable to manufacture after all...

If anything, everyone would be beating a path to Chorus' door and be willing to pay more for "first adopter" bragging rights.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> About 5 months ago the people at Chorus sat down and said to themselves, "After aerospace, what do we want to do with the Chorus motor


 
Hi Chovesh,
Your input is welcome. However, the quote above shows the point I am trying to make. If whoever was making the marketing and production decisions at Chorus was aware of the HUGE opportunities right now in auto tech for motors with claimed advantages like theirs, they wouldn't be acting like that market was an afterthought. The fact that they had to have a special meeting to come to an obvious conclusion is also a sign that someone is out of the loop, not up on current events and technologies, and probably chose to go with aerospace first for some outdated reason.

My intent is not to be insulting in any way, but to draw attention to the fact that too many people in American businesses these days are stuck in the past and trying to operate a business there, and not in the present, or the future.

As soon as I hear a hard date for delivery of Chorus' motors to the GENERAL PUBLIC, then I will be glad to make a huge investment in their stock. Not a second before...


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

_“If the Chorus technology really allows less expensive switching to be used, and little to no changes are needed to assembly lines to create the motors,”_

Only half correct. A Chorus Motor has the copper wound around it differently. You can take a standard motor and rewind it to build a Chorus Type motor, and you would still need the software and the electronics to allow the motor to switch from being a high-speed low torque motor to a low-speed high torque motor. 
To quote _*Motor Trend*_, 
*“The new Chorus Meshcon motor's "mesh-connected" winding is unique. Instead of a fixed three-phase design like your shop air-compressor uses, it's wound in such a way that the inverter can treat it as though there are many more phases-say 12 or 18-and the software virtually "rewires" it on the fly changing the number of magnetic poles and the alternating-current frequency, so that at low speed it provides big DC-type torque, and at high speed it delivers AC-induction performance.”*​Besides, cheaper switching does not mean that a _custom_ inverter is going to be cheap. This cheaper switching will show up as cheaper once mass production begins, but for custom applications, which include anything outside of Wheeltug, it will not be as cheap as your standard ‘off the shelf.’


You also write:
_“And I remain unconvinced that profit margins are thin on motors sold to DIY'ers. I welcome some documentation to PROVE that is the case.” _

_“WHY would profit margins be low on them?_”

Electric Motors are mature industry and an old one at that; and as such, motors have become a commodity. They are mass produced, and the market size is pretty well consistent, and generally there isn’t much to differentiate between manufacturers and therefore profit margins are low – which is what one would expect for a mature market. 

At present, Chorus Motors does not have a ‘manufacturing’ plant, and any motor contracted by them will strictly be a ‘*custom built*’ motor (with a custom inverter and custom software). One would expect that any custom build motor ordered by a DIY’er would indeed have a decent profit margin, but the costs of setting up manufacturing and the profit margins needed to justify taking away the limited resources that exist and that are going towards WheelTug Development and Certification would price most if not all DIY’ers out to the point that there would be effectively no ‘market’. 

Furthermore, any *custom* order does not mean reassigning people from the WheelTug project, but rather adding new people and programmers (depending upon the specs for the custom motor). 

Chorus is privately looking to help DIY’ers, *specifically *the researchers from Howard University. They are trying find people to buy two custom motors, including inverters and software, for the Howard University researchers to use in their EcoCarChallenge competition. They are even willing to sell 10% of Chorus Cars Plc. to do this as this will be a particularly effective way to get the notice of GM, the DOE, and the rest of the auto industry. 

_“If anything, everyone would be beating a path to Chorus' door and be willing to pay more for "first adopter" bragging rights.”_

At present, the cost of a custom wound motor, with the custom software and custom electronics means that only high expected revenue applications (like WheelTug) will have resources directed to them. At present, Delta Air Lines has committed to be the 'first adopter' and definitely plans on bragging. They are going to tout the greenhouse gases, the quicker 'out of the gate, the......you can figure out all the benefits of a WheelTug equipped plane, and you know that Delta Airlines is not going to let thier forefront position happen silently. ;-)


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

_”If whoever was making the marketing and production decisions at Chorus was aware of the HUGE opportunities right now in auto tech for motors with claimed advantages like theirs, they wouldn't be acting like that market was an afterthought.“_

Please do not misunderstand and think that it was an ‘afterthought’. 

As you are aware, Borealis (and Chorus Motors) initially wanted nothing to do with the electric motor industry other than to license the technology as the barriers to entry into this mature market are high, and the learning curve steep. They smartly realized they were better off letting someone else do what they did best, and that Borealis should do what they do best: development, not manufacturing, marketing, or distribution. 

_“The fact that they had to have a special meeting to come to an obvious conclusion is also a sign that someone is out of the loop, not up on current events and technologies, and probably chose to go with aerospace first for some outdated reason."_

Actually, that isn’t it at all. Here are the reasons that aerospace went first. 

Efforts were initially made several years ago to license the technology, and only when people at Boeing contacted Borealis and asked _“can you move a plane?” _did the first project with them come about. Boeing expected it to take a few years and cost several million, but Borealis had the project ready and completed in about 90 days. The video of the plane moving is available on YouTube and at http://www.wheeltug.com/WheelTug_demonstration_video.mov. 

Of course key parts of Boeing were absolutely against the project, since they have no interest in any technology that will keep planes (they’ve already sold) in service longer. So the opposition to the project inside of Boeing meant that they didn’t partner with Chorus Motors on WheelTug, but Chorus Motors realized the value that it had, which was the very reason that some at Boeing didn’t want the project to occur at all. 

Hence, WheelTug was realized as a something that Borealis and Chorus Motors should make happen because a $60K monthly savings per plane was just too good an opportunity to pass up on thousands of planes. Also, Boeing would have wanted the units at “Cost + 7%” like they pay for any other product that was developed with government money, and the Chorus Motor has taken no government money and is 100% proprietary. 

Besides, at that time Hybrids were NOT the rage and gasoline was “SUV cheap.”

But back to the meeting 5 months ago; everyone was aware that hybrids were ‘_current events, technologies_’ that the Chorus Motor was suited for. Remember after all, these are the guys who came up with the Chorus Motor, and they are damned smart. The meeting wasn’t about ‘*should*’ but rather “*which*,” as in *which* car company to go to, _*which*_ person to talk to, *which* aspect to focus on, and *which* markets would be the first, the second, and the last, and lastly, *which* vehicle best suits the strengths and advantages of the Chorus Motors. 

The conclusion of the last question was “the Series Hybrid.” 

_"As soon as I hear a hard date for delivery of Chorus' motors to the GENERAL PUBLIC, then I will be glad to make a huge investment in their stock. Not a second before..."_


LOL. Are you sure that is a good idea? Which stock do you want to buy. Microsoft in 1982, or Microsoft in 2008. The shares bought in 1982 have grown by several factors, and present day Microsoft shares are _very _unlikely to ever encounter that same sort of explosive growth in thier stock price. 

It's when Chorus Motors are available to the general public you will _already _have had the majority of revenue from high niche applications (like planes, cars, etc.) realized, and at that point it is time to take your profits by selling, not by buying. 

Thanks for the great questions.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You've made some very good points, some that mirror my own speculation earlier in the thread. One thing to consider, I will never buy a hybrid, and I suspect most of the over 4000 members of this forum feel much the same. The efficiency simply isn't high enough. I'll drive an EV, probably my own conversion, and I'll keep a gas vehicle as a back up for longer trips. Most of my life I've owned at least 2 vehicles so that won't be unusual. Most households have at least 2. 
A serial hybrid may indeed be the best way to get the Chorus motor accepted into mass production but it certainly isn't the best use of the technology. The efficiency available by plugging into the grid and driving from stored energy can't be beat. As for battery weight, the Tesla battery pack weighs around 900lbs and can provide 240 miles of range. Cut that pack in half and get 120 + miles range for 450lbs of batteries. The ACP drive package can do 150KW, if Chorus can match that output in a smaller, lighter, and more efficient package, (at reduced cost in volume production), range can increase even further. Make the pack out of A123 cells and you have longer life and fast charge capability. 
At this point I guess I can't fault Chorus for their business plan but I only hope their technology is what they claim and that it will be applied to full BEV's as soon as possible.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> The $25K battery pack of the volt, providing 40 miles for that cost, just isn't going to be able to compete in the category of mass market vehicles that are priced against a Camry or Accord.


I believe Tesla claims the cost of their 240 mile range pack is around $25k, and they feel with volume they can substantially drop that cost. One of the problems with hybrids is their packs have to be capable of full discharges over and over, while a full BEV pack will rarely be fully discharged.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As for providing real world proof, what about making two identical vehicles, make them motorcycles to keep costs down, with the same motors but one wound and controlled to Chorus specifications, the other stock. Maybe one of these http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php Then allow independent testing of both.
Or at least maybe a bench top test rig of both motors?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> They have a paper on using their motor in Series Hybrids (http://www.choruscars.com/ChorusCars_SMMA_presentation.pdf)


Hi Chovesh,

That presentation says "We depart from the conventional induction solution by using Chorus’ high phase order approach coupled with a 'toroidal' winding geometry."

Do you know anything about this? Any more info on the toroidal winding would be appreciated.

Thanks,

major


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6700271.html has a picture of toroidal windings. It's the quickest thing I could get you. You can you that as a source to search for more information - as I'm not a technical expert. ;-)


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Chovesh,
> 
> That presentation says "We depart from the conventional induction solution by using Chorus’ high phase order approach coupled with a 'toroidal' winding geometry."
> 
> ...


Hey Major, take a look at this patent here. I think it will help you understand toroidal winding geometry.


I still stand behind my previous posts when it comes to the lack of understanding of current market conditions on the part of those within the Chorus management. Nothing Chovesh said changes that. They may be smart enough to design a motor, but they lack understanding when it comes to their business model as it relates to the sector they have attempted to introduce their motor within. Sure, they can choose to do whatever they want, but in my opinion they haven't done well. Trying to sell a couple thousand VERY LARGE motors to aerospace instead of MILLIONS of smaller motors to the auto industry is a dead end. I am sure it will help aerospace, but not in the same way, or to the same magnitude, that it could have helped the auto sector, and our economy in general. Not to mention the bottom line of Chorus itself...

Taking the "easy" way out and attempting to license ideas instead of building actual products for sale to the public and the industries that effect the most people will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. And spare me the suggestion that it would have been MORE difficult to do it the way I am suggesting. So what if it was? No pain, no gain. If you aren't willing to take risk and put out effort, why should the marketplace reward you for your unmanufactured idea(s)??? The reluctance on the part of American businessmen to put out effort and take risk is causing us to lose our position in the world. It is a failing mindset in my humble opinion.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Want more evidence? Chorus motors stock symbol is CHOMF. In 2004 this stock was trading at almost $20 a share. What is it today? $2.75 a share, and it has gone as low as fifty cents a share! EPS and market cap NOT EVEN LISTED.

Yes, the market has gone down dramatically lately, but not 85% or more!!!!!! So if all the claims of Chorus are true, and their business model is sound, why would the market be reacting to their stock the way it is? I guess the smart people at Chorus are not so smart after all...

Their parent company Borealis Exploration Limited (stock symbol BOREF) peaked in 2005 at just under the peak price reached by CHOMF. What is it now? $2.85 a share! EPS is MINUS $1.05 a share!

Wow, speaks for itself when a company loses twice as much stock value as the general market has lost in current market conditions. You can have the BEST product _concept_ in the world, but if your business model is unsound, the _concept_ that you have will FAIL.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks uncle and chov,

I understand the torus type motor. I worked on them years ago. What I was after was the Chorus approach using it specifically.

Regards,

major


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

_“I still stand behind my previous posts when it comes to the lack of understanding of current market conditions on the part of those within the Chorus management. Nothing Chovesh said changes that. They may be smart enough to design a motor, but they lack understanding when it comes to their business model as it relates to the sector they have attempted to introduce their motor within. Sure, they can choose to do whatever they want, but in my opinion they haven't done well.”_​The chorus motor isn’t ideal for every application. It is good for applications with starts and stops, or require large start-up torques, but offers little advantage for continuous operations. So not all avenues are open to the Chorus Motor. And the company shifted to aerospace once it saw the huge potential, as you will see when I address your following comment. 
_Trying to sell a couple thousand VERY LARGE motors to aerospace instead of MILLIONS of smaller motors to the auto industry is a dead end. _​It is a dead end, which is why Wheeltug (and Chorus Motors) is not trying to sell motors to aerospace; and maybe this is the part that isn’t easy to comprehend. 

When you sell a motor above cost, you take a profit and then you have to go out and sell another motor at above cost to make another profit. WheelTug simply isn’t going to be doing that. 

Wheeltug is going to *LEASE* the motors, *for half the savings*. So a motor (or nosegear assembly) that might cost $100-$120K will bring in $30K/month which equates to $360K in revenue EACH YEAR while saving the airline the same amount. 

And since there will initially be a limited number of Wheeltugs once Delta has been fully supplied, production slots will cost $30K, with another $30K due 30 days before delivery in order for that particular buyer to begin realizing monthly savings several months before a competitor who wasn't fast enough to buy the production slot. 
“_but they lack understanding when it comes to their business model as it relates to the sector they have attempted to introduce their motor within._”​The business model is correct; I suspect that you don’t understand the model. ;-)

One pair of motors brings in $360K/year, or $1,000,000 every three years, and the motors are still owned by Wheeltug. 
_I am sure it will help aerospace, but not in the same way, or to the same magnitude, that it could have helped the auto sector, and our economy in general. Not to mention the bottom line of Chorus itself..._​I think I just showed that with 2000 Boeing 737NG’s, 3000 Airbus, and a few thousand other planes, that half the savings on each plane will easily bring revenues to 250 million mark without ever having sold a single motor. How’s that for a business model?

An additional benefit of going this aerospace route means not having to fight your way up large corporations and their massive inertia. The success of Wheeltug and the publicity that surround it gets Detroit to come to Chorus. In a perfect world, you simply tell Detroit you have a better motor, and they go “Yes, we want to order three million.” Alas, it doesn’t work that way; you have to go through the engineers, find a champion or two inside the company, let egos battle it out in committee, etc. 

Also, Chorus motors would never wind up being the manufacturer for the auto industry anyway. The industry already has suppliers, and those suppliers have the manufacturing capacity and the know how and manufacturing expertise that exceeds Chorus Motors expertise and abilities. Chorus Motors _has known_ _all along_ that they were not going to be buying a building, hiring and training a workforce, hiring management, getting suppliers, and doing the manufacturing for the auto industry – it will _HAVE_ to be a license arrangement because the auto industry will want it that way. 
_“If you aren't willing to take risk and put out effort, why should the marketplace reward you for your unmanufactured idea(s)???”_​Ok now your statements along this line are sounding (at least to me) ridiculous. Please don’t be offended if I find this statement hilarious. Ideas are bought and sold all the time; knowledge is paid for, and is often a commodity. Patents are a reflection of ‘unmanufactured’ ideas, ideas which have tremendous value. Ideas are like iron, like both a commodity and a raw material, they can be used to make products and profits, or they can be left to sit and rust until someone finds a good use for them, if ever. The marketplace rewards ideas as they represent the manufacture of something new (the idea) - so in a certain sense, every idea has been manufactured, but like certain products that no one wants to buy....not every idea sells.

I also had fun reading your other statements that were along that line. My first thoughts of reading your,
_“The reluctance on the part of American businessmen to put out effort and take risk is causing us to lose our position in the world. It is a failing mindset in my humble opinion.”_
Made me think of this economic fiasco we're in being based on taking on too much risk. Business is always about “risk management” and not about taking risk as all businesses take risks, but it is about taking the smart ones that have the right risk/reward ratio.
_"And spare me the suggestion that it would have been MORE difficult to do it the way I am suggesting. So what if it was? No pain, no gain." _​I think the proper response to the question posed in the above quote, written in form of a motto/cliche like the _"*No pain, no gain*." _is "_*Work* *smarter, not harder*_."


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> _“I still stand behind my previous posts when it comes to the lack of understanding of current market conditions on the part of those within the Chorus management. Nothing Chovesh said changes that. They may be smart enough to design a motor, but they lack understanding when it comes to their business model as it relates to the sector they have attempted to introduce their motor within. Sure, they can choose to do whatever they want, but in my opinion they haven't done well.”_​The chorus motor isn’t ideal for every application. It is good for applications with starts and stops, or require large start-up torques, but offers little advantage for continuous operations. So not all avenues are open to the Chorus Motor. And the company shifted to aerospace once it saw the huge potential, as you will see when I address your following comment.
> _Trying to sell a couple thousand VERY LARGE motors to aerospace instead of MILLIONS of smaller motors to the auto industry is a dead end. _​It is a dead end, which is why Wheeltug (and Chorus Motors) is not trying to sell motors to aerospace; and maybe this is the part that isn’t easy to comprehend.
> 
> When you sell a motor above cost, you take a profit and then you have to go out and sell another motor at above cost to make another profit. WheelTug simply isn’t going to be doing that.
> ...


Yes, I agree, the business model was flawed from the beginning when the people at Chorus decided they weren't going to do anything but try to license their product ideas to others. I know that is not what you intended to say, but your words backed up my point very well. When you decide from the beginning that you aren't going to do the things it takes to make your concept a success, like hire people, set up manufacturing facilities, etc., it won't succeed.

I notice you still haven't provided any proof that small motors produce smaller profit margins. I also notice you didn't address the stock values and the reasons they have tanked so seriously. I guess your idea of "work smarter, not harder" isn't producing real world results....

Its all fine and good to quote people and then address the quoted material, but what about the material you DIDN'T quote and DIDN'T address?

I am going to stop now, because you obviously aren't objective enough to see the points I am making and backing up with evidence. I sincerely hope Chorus' motor is all its claimed to be and that it takes off (any decade now...), but right now it is in the hands of those who are not doing what it takes to make their company, or their motor technology, a success. Even just producing a real world, independent demonstration of the supposed benefits of their technology would be a step in the right direction.

When the verifiable evidence says I am wrong, I will be glad to eat a big plate of crow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Let's try to keep things on an even keel and discuss how the technology works and how Chorus is actually marketing the product, not what we think they should have done as it's irrelevant at this point. I understand Unlcematt's frustration but I think it might be clouding his judgment somewhat. It is not easy to break into the automotive world, and it's not easy or even practical to start up a production facility for a new product without an existing high volume customer. However I would like to know the answers to my demonstration model questions. Seems like an easy way to show off the technology at a low cost.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Let's try to keep things on an even keel and discuss how the technology works and how Chorus is actually marketing the product, not what we think they should have done as it's irrelevant at this point. I understand Unlcematt's frustration but I think it might be clouding his judgment somewhat. It is not easy to break into the automotive world, and it's not easy or even practical to start up a production facility for a new product without an existing high volume customer. However I would like to know the answers to my demonstration model questions. Seems like an easy way to show off the technology at a low cost.


My judgement is not clouded at all. I was a member of the automotive industry for many years, and know the obstacles involved. But acting like they are insurmountable is inaccurate and self-defeating in my opinion. If Chorus took their non-existant demonstration motor to GM and showed them how it could benefit their Volt, and at the same time lower costs, do you REALLY think GM would just shrug and turn away? I certainly hope not.

And please note in my last post I suggested the same thing you are: some actual evidence that their motors have the advantages they claim when it comes to EV use.


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

_“I also notice you didn't address the stock values and the reasons they have tanked so seriously. I guess your idea of "work smarter, not harder" isn't producing real world results....”_​Did you notice that I hadn’t read your post on stock values when I replied to the earlier post? ;-) Here goes….
_"Want more evidence? Chorus motors stock symbol is CHOMF. In 2004 this stock was trading at almost $20 a share. What is it today? $2.75 a share, and it has gone as low as fifty cents a share! EPS and market cap NOT EVEN LISTED._

_Yes, the market has gone down dramatically lately, but not 85% or more!!!!!! So if all the claims of Chorus are true, and their business model is sound, why would the market be reacting to their stock the way it is? I guess the smart people at Chorus are not so smart after all..."_​If the market worked perfectly, then Warrant Buffet would only be as wealthy as you and I. 

He’s made his money by buying undervalued stocks, correct? The trick to make money in the (stock) market is to buy things that people will be willing to pay more for later and he’s a master at finding things that have more value than what people are paying for them. Alternatively you could buy stock in companies that are going to be increasing their profits, but that goes back to describing them as ‘undervalued.’ Therefore the answer to “_why would the market be reacting to their stock the way it is?_” is that it is a thinly traded OTC stock that very few people have heard of. However, once the first units are installed on Delta Air Lines 737NGs that will change. 




Perhaps Borealis management could have put lots of money into hyping their company and keeping their stock value up, or even trying to sell their stock to anyone who would buy it; but at present, they are net buyers of their own shares (BOREF), and are only selling shares in a subsidiary of a subsidiary (i.e. Wheeltug) for two reasons:

They have extreme confidence in their product/business model
They want to fully fund the company (Wheeltug) 
There are plenty of companies with higher share prices and less revenue or potential revenue. They just market themselves better, but it doesn’t mean that their business model is better or that they will ever have a real product (like the Chorus Motor). 

Of course, thinly traded stocks like Borealis and Chorus motors are subject to significant price swings. You can’t actually buy 20,000 shares in a single day without drive the price sky high. 

Wow, speaks for itself when a company loses twice as much stock value as the general market has lost in current market conditions. 

Actually, Borealis and Chorus Motors are companies that you might want to listen more carefully to, instead of assuming that they are speaking the same old garbage that most companies offer. The drop in price speaks less about the company than their partnering with Luxell, and Co-Operative Industries Aerospace, or even Delta Air Lines. The fundamentals for an undervalued company are all there. 

You can have the BEST product _concept_ in the world, but if your business model is unsound, the _concept_ that you have will FAIL.

Well, we have yet to see if their business model is unsound, because they haven’t failed yet, but they do have an agreement with a customer; a customer who is so interested in the product so much that they wrangled into the agreement warrants for buying 600,000 shares at an average price of $36/share, and expect to make money by buying Wheeltug shares at that price. 

So either the price of the stock mean what you say it means, or it could mean that it is undervalued. 
_“Yes, I agree, the business model was flawed from the beginning when the people at Chorus decided they weren't going to do anything but try to license their product ideas to others. I know that is not what you intended to say, but your words backed up my point very well. When you decide from the beginning that you aren't going to do the things it takes to make your concept a success, like hire people, set up manufacturing facilities, etc., it won't succeed.”_​When you build a house, you can either DIY (if you have the skills/knowledge) or be the general contractor, or find someone to be the general contractor for you. Chorus went the most ‘efficient’ path which is to have someone else build their motor under license because it takes more than effort, it taks skill, knowlege, and expereince, so that want a partner or licencee who has more of that in manufacturing than they do. Smart, no? 
_“I notice you still haven't provided any proof that small motors produce smaller profit margins. “_​I never claimed small motors produce smaller profit margins and therefore need not prove something I never claimed. My claim was that electric motors are a mature industry where electric motors are a commodity product, hence profit margins are inherently small. The area where electric motors have high profits is custom motors, which aren’t a commodity product. 

Your initial challenge to me was to prove that profit margins were small for DIY motors. This was, I believe, your effort to counter my argument that Chorus Motors is pursuing profit margins (Aerospace) that were higher than that which could be achieved in the DIY market. My last post showed the revenue that each motor would generate for the company in aerospace, including the cost of each motor with its resulting revenue produced by each motor, and the DIY market you challenged me on cannot provide that sort of revenue. Wasn’t your initial challenge to try to prove that the DIY was profitable when compared to aerospace or automotive? 
_"Its all fine and good to quote people and then address the quoted material, but what about the material you DIDN'T quote and DIDN'T address?"_​Well, the quoted material that I address rather thoroughly should be rather impressive, yet I notice you neither address my responses nor concede a single point, but I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify to others the things that concerned you the most. 
_"Even just producing a real world, independent demonstration of the supposed benefits of their technology would be a step in the right direction."_​Boeing and Air Canada did that demo, and it was filmed and had the corresponding press release.


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## Chovesh (Nov 30, 2008)

_"It is not easy to break into the automotive world, and it's not easy or even practical to start up a production facility for a new product without an existing high volume customer."_ ​Very well put.  
_"However I would like to know the answers to my demonstration model questions. Seems like an easy way to show off the technology at a low cost."_​I believe your question was for a side by side test. Chorus has invited people to their lab to show the motor working, and they have the video for it as well. 

While Chorus Motors Plc and WheelTug Plc put ALL their efforts towards Wheeltug completion, there is an outstanding offer that if someone wants to PAY for a demo motor, they will do the work to create such a motor. 

Normally you might say, "Well Chorus has to show *ME* and _they _should pay for the work." However, they have already shown it to Boeing and discovered their first and most logical market (aerospace) and are putting all resources towards that that market. They know it is very important to not get distracted, and that success with Wheeltug and the airline industry breaks them into nearly every market they might want consider, and those that they haven’t even thought of. 

Any motor they build now will actually be 'better' than the motors that were attached to the Air Canada 767 during the Boeing Demo. 

In prep for the final design of, their ‘lab motor’ (named M0, to be followed by M1 & M2) being the most recent iteration and including all improvements, will soon be complete. The follow-up motors M1 (or M2 if they decide to build it) will be the final design for use on Wheeltug. 

It is possible that with full funding and everything being either on schedule or ahead of schedule, Chorus Motors _may_ have time/resources to create a motor for the type of demo you would like. However, I would bet that such a demo would first go to those they are already talking with outside of the airline industry.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

I could respond to that last post with a lot of things, but in the interest of civility on the thread, I will just laugh to myself here in private.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Chovesh said:


> It is possible that with full funding and everything being either on schedule or ahead of schedule, Chorus Motors _may_ have time/resources to create a motor for the type of demo you would like. However, I would bet that such a demo would first go to those they are already talking with outside of the airline industry.


I would think the demo motor should first go to an independent testing facility and the results published, which should create even more demand for the product if it performs as promised. Showing independent test results on a website is more economical than shipping a demo motor to various companies, though that should be an option for interested parties.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I would think the demo motor should first go to an independent testing facility and the results published, which should create even more demand for the product if it performs as promised. Showing independent test results on a website is more economical than shipping a demo motor to various companies, though that should be an option for interested parties.


And you would be correct.


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Chovesh,
> 
> That presentation says "We depart from the conventional induction solution by using Chorus’ high phase order approach coupled with a 'toroidal' winding geometry."
> 
> ...


Hey Major, (or anyone) 
Can someone please explain the benefits derived from toroidal winding geometries?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

unclematt said:


> Hey Major, (or anyone)
> Can someone please explain the benefits derived from toroidal winding geometries?


Hi uncle,

Not sure!!! A lot of early motors were done using torrid cores called gramme-ring windings. Then someone figured out that a distributed drum winding could utilize more of the coil, 2 sides instead of one. So almost all motors made since are drum shaped. There are some axial motors, using disc shapes. A torrid can be configured to combine the drum and disc to some degree. A lot of ways to make a motor. Which is best? Application constraints probably dictate. No clear winner in my mind, but for a commodity motor, it is hard to beat the standard drum shape.

You want to overload your brain with this stuff, look up work done by Dr. Thomas A. Lipo, U of Wisconsin.

Regards,

major


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hi uncle,
> 
> Not sure!!! A lot of early motors were done using torrid cores called gramme-ring windings. Then someone figured out that a distributed drum winding could utilize more of the coil, 2 sides instead of one. So almost all motors made since are drum shaped. There are some axial motors, using disc shapes. A torrid can be configured to combine the drum and disc to some degree. A lot of ways to make a motor. Which is best? Application constraints probably dictate. No clear winner in my mind, but for a commodity motor, it is hard to beat the standard drum shape.
> 
> ...


Thanks major, I will check into that. Maybe Chovesh could enlighten us further about this winding geometry and its advantages.


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I got a response back from chorus motors/borealis but it didn't have any substance to it. Just that they are "very flexible" with regards to licensing and royalty arrangements"... Well, I suppose you have to be if you haven't sold your brilliant and revolutionary idea to a single major company in 3 years...


It would seem insidious that an "aggressive and up and coming company" would be registered in Gibralter (maybe for tax-reasons, but I suspect not). Has anyone asked if and where their main office is located?? If all that is needed to have a "Meshcon Motor" is a total rewind, or purchase a new motor from them I find why don't they "splurge" the facts to all and sundry??


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

Despite my criticisms, I was hopeful that Chorus Motors would prove me wrong. However, here we are several years later and still no motors available on the shelf for purchase...


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

unclematt said:


> Despite my criticisms, I was hopeful that Chorus Motors would prove me wrong. However, here we are several years later and still no motors available on the shelf for purchase...


I have unsuccessfully, tried to locate to locate the Chorus head-office o9r "plant" in Gibralter or the UK, or; for that matter anywhere worldwide; but; surprise, surprise, there is not a listing anywhere except the "Chorus" blurb!!! What are prospective "clients" supposed to think of this "miracle-motor"???


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

electro37 said:


> I have unsuccessfully, tried to locate to locate the Chorus head-office o9r "plant" in Gibralter or the UK, or; for that matter anywhere worldwide; but; surprise, surprise, there is not a listing anywhere except the "Chorus" blurb!!! What are prospective "clients" supposed to think of this "miracle-motor"???


Come to think of it, as an apprentice electrician in "Vickers Engineering" I remember we had a special "high frequency or multiphase supply for powering portable drills and grinders (either 1100 Hz or 1100phases I'm not sure which this was in the late 1950's) but it made the portable tools much smaller and lighter for increased "output". Maybe this could be supplied electronically today making electric cars etc. much more "feasible".... Of course the multiphase supply would have less "power-losses" than a lower 3-phase supply, all it would need was a good "smoothing" system in place to deliver almost 100% with only a miniscule loss!!


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## LabTech (Apr 15, 2011)

I've sent them a message today also, because I want to see the Chorus Meshcon motor married to either a SuperCapacitor, Ultracapacitor or the like to get both efficient motor and power, perhaps use the SuperCapacitor with a current limiter so that you could charge it at full speed, but drain it at a controlled rate to give it longer life, so that it would behave as a battery. I have been following Chorus Motors for a while now, and think I understand them quite well, and am also wondering why they keep SUGGESTING what they COULD do, but no one is jumping on the band wagon. WHY? They BRAG the cost is less, so why not make it reasonable for the hobbiest to become a DIYelecticCar enthusiast... that could turn the corner and turn heads at the same time, placing electic cars FIRMLY in our future, I believe. I suggested REGENERATIVE SHOCKS and BRAKES to them nearly a year ago, and they are talking about regenerative shocks now. Maybe they're just being cautious... I know, we need to phase in slow enough to not anger the Petroleum companys and existing car manufacturers, but it's time...I think we're ready for the cars of the futures. Home-use charging stations are now being advertized and sold!


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## LabTech (Apr 15, 2011)

I am wondering why the nanotube batteries, or the super-capacitor batteries are not talked about too much. There should be ALOT of clamour about them right about now!

Imagine a 5 minute charge going 250 miles per charge...

Imagine NO TRANSMISSION at ALL! YAY MESHCON!

Imagine a BIO-DIESEL generator on-board running off bio-diesel manufactured from PLANKTON, which can be re-grown in 10 days... having less POLLUTION from the GENERATOR than today's diesel vehicles and generators!

NOW imagine 2 gallons of bio-diesel, meshcon, nanotube or super-capacitor batteries. NOW DRIVE cross country BRAGGING about your POWERFUL, SPEEDY EV!

WHY NOT?

NOW... tell everyone you did it from a KIT! 

What's that you say, the kit doesn't exist yet?

And all I can say to that is, a REAL LOUD, "WHY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

or

AND WHEN WILL THERE BE ONE?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, thanks for another random off topic rant


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## LabTech (Apr 15, 2011)

Off Topic? ALL of it is centered around the MESHCON MOTOR! I'm just pipe dreaming about all the things that could be combined with it!

We need someone to set up a KIT to make a car with them (Meshcon=Chorus harmonically controlled AC motors, for those of you in Rio Linda)
and BRAG OUT LOUD so we know it is out here!

I want one MYSELF!


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Its now been 20 months since last post here. 

What is the latest? Still unobtainable at DIY level?


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## Electric8 (Mar 12, 2013)

I sent them a message last year asking for a quote for 2 motors and controller for a 4x4 car, each motor to run through a 1:4.111 differential. No reply.
They seem to be doing really well with the WheelTug though, check out youtube looks like several airlines have signed up to have it installed.

There was a long discussion on here about this company, and my understanding from that discussion was that they dont want to get involved in the manufacturing side of things, just in design, development, licensing, etc.

Maybe a better approach is to get a second hand AC motor and ask them to re-wire it to Meshcon winding?
perhaps they are happy to rewind motors but dont want to build them from scratch?


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## ndplume (May 31, 2010)

Rewinding would certainly be the more inexpensive route. 

I'd also like to see a schematic on how to hook up their controller. It sounds like it would have 17 phase connections to the motor, 2 connections to the battery and then another utility connector including 12V to power, ground and any other stuff (CAN Bus, programing connections etc)


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'd like to see some hard data on the specifications. ACIMs are already 95% efficient, and PWM drives are similar. The only place I can see improvement is power/weight ratio and perhaps low end torque, but by designing a motor with higher pole count (8, 12, 16, 24...) you can get very high torque at low speeds, and by designing it with high frequency capable magnetics, it can be clocked at 400-600 Hz or higher for RPMs in the "normal" range of 1800-3600. 

For the WheelTug application, size and weight are not really much of an issue, and (as in most tractors) more weight is a good thing. Also the controller complexity seems like it could be a problem, and with higher power and more efficient modern semiconductors, the size and cost benefits of having many more phases may no longer be valid. I'm underwhelmed.


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## Electric8 (Mar 12, 2013)

Weight is an issue, because WheelTug actually fits into the front wheel of the aircraft! (it takes off with the aircraft)
And as you know, weight for aircraft is a big issue. And size, it probably has to fit into the existing dimensions of the front wheels.
As I understand it, the advantage of WheelTug motor is exactly as you said, not extra efficiency, but extra torque at very low rpm, without the need to re-wind the motor for same torque at high rpm.
It sounds like the best of both worlds, its a bit like re-winding a standard AC motor on the fly.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I was looking for something else and stumbled on this in my Photo file folder.










Hmmm, not much larger than the thumbnail. It shows a Chorus motor with all the phases (17?) connected running on a dynamometer. The date on the picture file in my computer is 2003. So like I said in the other thread; been around for a while and hasn't caught on. And looks like a bit of complexity there.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Looks like it's on life support!


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## Electric8 (Mar 12, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYtn1m-1mM

catching on with airlines.

more recent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYtn1m-1mM

skip to 5:07 for the most fun diagram 

Apart from the other benefits, the thing I like the most with multi-phase motors is the (apparent?) durability. It seems that if a winding burns out, the motor will still work in all the other phases. Could be really useful (when batteries improve) for long distance off-road / cross-desert vehicles.


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## Electric8 (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm hoping that with chorus motors something like this set up would be possible, but without the gearboxes.
Apparently, the SLS uses 4 motors (synchronous, magnet?) 45kg each, 4 reduction boxes, 4 controllers.
Complete guess - if each gearbox weighs 30kg thats potentially 120kg that can be removed.
I know in my car the rear diff weighs 24kg. I would prefer to replace that with another motor.

Does anyone know of a really good small AC induction motor around 30kg, that would be worth re-winding?
I'm really curious to try and get some sort of quote from this company for a re-wound motor.











from here:
http://www.zemotoring.com/news/2012/03/mercedes-sls-amg-e-cell-laid-bare


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