# Heavy Truck Application



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow!  Maybe something like this? I hope it's possible and, if so, I hope you do a build thread here!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

specialprojectengineer said:


> Are there any websites devoted to converting 18 wheelers to EV's? What would some of you do for a DIY project-what would you recommend as far as motor size/type, controller, regen, type/size batteries, etc.?


Hi there,

A battery powered over-the-road 18 wheeler doesn't make much sense. For any decent range, you'd lose your payload to battery. However for short runs, it can make perfect sense. See http://www.balqon.com/ 

I don't think you'll have much luck finding experienced DIYers in this area. I've worked on one of these electric yard jockeys years ago and have done work on class 4-6 hybrid vehicles. These were all commercial or funded research projects.

Another resource for you to check out is HTUF http://www.calstart.org/Projects/Hybrid-Truck-Users-Forum.aspx 

If you're serious, before even looking at motors or controllers, figure your energy use per mile and the size of battery you would require to get the distance you have in mind. If you can swallow that huge pill, then we'll get down to electric propulsion.

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Smiths Electric Vehicles have electric goods vehicles that seem interesting. Some of the supermarkets here use them for local deliveries.


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## specialprojectengineer (May 31, 2010)

I have found a website with some promising ideas...itselectric.com, you should check it out...


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

As usual, Major hit the most important points.

A 13" motor isn't going to be enough for a 40 ton semi tractor trailer. 

Yes, a WarP 13 at 2000A will make about 750 ft-lbs torque at peak (maybe for 5 minutes), still nearly half what one might expect in a big semi (i.e. 350 HP @ 1250 RPM = 1470 ft-lbs continuous).

You will still need a transmission with enough ratios to stay on top of the torque curve (though that curve tends to be a lot flatter with electrics, and comes up from 0 RPM).

You will need a LOT of energy capacity.

Being a big truck nut myself, I ran some numbers on this, and brainstormed the concept for a while several years ago. What I came up with is that the tractor would need it's own traction pack, but for a "long haul" of 150 miles or so, it would require filling half of a 53' trailer with lithium batteries.

I could see a big AC drive being used in something like this, but for the foreseeable future a pure battery-electric EV tractor seems to be out of the question.

A more reasonable thought may be to build a hybrid similar to the way that diesel-electric locomotives work, where the running gear is always driven by a beefy electric motor, and the ICE turns a generator.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I've heard some getting 7 mpg , that's about 8.57 gallons/ hour @ 60 mph . if you can get about 10 kwh / gallon that's 85.7 kwh / hour . So 300 kwh of battery should work . @ $.10/kwh x 300 = $ 30 or 30 gal. of diesel @ $90 and climbing. if we get 50 kw solar array for $50 k we save $ 30 / day (1666 days pay back) . compared to $90 /day for diesel that's 555 days pay back not counting batteries and drive system .


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2010)

You need to consider the weight limits of the roads you plan on using. I am sure you would be banned from most bridges and many roads due to the extreme weight lof such a vehicle. Get that figured out then figure out how to build one. It would be quite wasteful to spend a fortune on something you can't use.

Pete


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

If you can pry some from them, what about e-traction's "TheWheel" system? They have a set running a fleet of city bus' without a problem: http://www.e-traction.nl/content_project_whisper.php and http://www.e-traction.nl/content_thewheel_sm500.php


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I suppose the other way to look at this is what the OP's intentions are. Not a lot of information given.

Electric motors to drive the truck are not a problem as even 500 ton mining dump trucks have electric drive motors so a standard 18 wheeler could be driven electrically.
The question would then be the energy store. Would the OP want to use batteries or a diesel electric system, maybe with some battery storage.

Come on,specialprojectengineer, tell us what you are planning and what sort of budget you are looking at. It is easier to help that way and I am intrigued.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

the gross weight is 80,000# , net cargo is something like 42,000 #, the Cat 3406 engine is 3400 # , trans 1000# . if we put a 1000# ac motor ( no trans ) that's 3400 lbs of free battery weight or 2400# with the trans . I'm thinking of 6000 lbs battery weight for 300 kwh ? So we carry about 3000 less lbs of cargo . As a side benefit the regen braking would not need brake service , oil changes . My trucker buddy just called to give me some numbers . He does long hall over size and needs 500 mile /day , being over size he's grossing 70,000# so 10,000 less then gross max .so he could have 13,400 # of batteries . He says that the average long hall does 500 miles/ day and over 200 days per year , that's $42,000 in diesel . It looks like he could make it work . If the batteries didn't cost like $200,000.(600,000 watts @ $.35/ watt)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Didn't Micheal Kadi and SSI Racing do an electric semi?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Didn't Micheal Kadi and SSI Racing do an electric semi?


just checked them out . Wow ! 3200 ft.lbs torque ,has to be detuned to keep from breaking axles . 2X torque of normal truck . The Feds give 40,000 tax credit , that helps. So the bottom line it is way easier, except for cash to build a large truck , that will travel much further (using 1/6 of it's gross weight in batteries) then a small car . Well it should have been obvious , 7mpg for 80,000 lbs . My benz would need to get 140 mpg to get the same mpg /lb.If I got my numbers right ,600 kwh / 500 miles =1200 watt hr. per mile .A 3000 lbs. ev 1/26 of 80,000 would need 46 watts / mile , We would love that . Only problem is how to pay for it .


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> Only problem is how to pay for it .


 
That seems to always be the only problem to brilliant ideas. I think that the concept is able to be done but it definitely would be very interesting. I think that a truck like that (if capable) would really begin to pay for itseld if the cost were kept down. The other question I would have is: What kind of beastly charging system/electrical outlet would you need to charge this thing in a reasonable 8-10 hours while you sleep?  It just seems to me like it would take a lot of energy from the grid to get this thing charged in a sane amount of time.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

100 kw /hr. for a 6 hour charge . or run inductive coils under the freeways and carry less batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> or run inductive coils under the freeways and carry less batteries.


Sounds as if a railway would be easier, and heavy rail is much more efficient than trucks.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sounds as if a railway would be easier, and heavy rail is much more efficient than trucks.


For long haul to most places, train is the better option economically and ecologically.

However, I don't know about you, but I for one don't want a rail line directly behind my house to deliver freight shipments to my address. 

Trucks are still needed, no matter what... and that's what I would hope an electric tractor trailer (or smaller) would be used for.


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## dogshed (Dec 25, 2009)

There are a number of trucks that just haul trailers between two terminals.
If you run an overhead line between the two terminals you wouldn't need batteries. You just have to get permission and come up with a way to charge other companies for using your cables.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

dogshed said:


> There are a number of trucks that just haul trailers between two terminals.
> If you run an overhead line between the two terminals you wouldn't need batteries. You just have to get permission and come up with a way to charge other companies for using your cables.


That works well for municipal mass transit (ala the electric trolley buses in Seattle) but not very well for other applications. Imagine the red tape necessary to string cables at a reasonable height above the street and the liabilities if some dummy comes along and completes the circuit with something conductive standing off the top of their vehicle (like a CB antenna)...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> For long haul to most places, train is the better option economically and ecologically.
> 
> However, I don't know about you, but I for one don't want a rail line directly behind my house to deliver freight shipments to my address.
> 
> Trucks are still needed, no matter what... and that's what I would hope an electric tractor trailer (or smaller) would be used for.


I agree, that's why I was specifically responding to the idea of induction under freeways, and long haul trucking in general. We need to rebuild our heavy rail system, not try to build 400+ mile long range EV trucks.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Surely the advantage of a truck is that it 'could' wait around to be loaded/unloaded instead of just swaping trailers or containers. That would give an opportunity to fast charge at the loading bay.
It would be a little like giving the horses a nosebag while the barrels were swapped at the tavern.

Long distance freight could be by train and then local delivery could be by EV trucks where practical. Maybe the trucking distance could be reduced by having a freight yard for the train and then many more distribution depots within EV range. Being an urban thing there wouldn't need to be much in the way of speed either.

Another option would be to freight the whole EV truck around the country and charge it in transit from the electrified rail service. That way it could manage longer deliveries.

Maybe in an ideal world though.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I worked for the Milwaukee Road from 73-75 , the board of the road came to see the shopes . It was comprised of the oil , steel , insurance suppliers to the rail road . they would charge the RR high prices to keep it in the red and the "parent" corporations run with the profits . Then they said our pour RR needs government help to stay in business . "We all need the rail road " another to big to fail , I say to important to let big oil ,etc. run our rails and us into the ground .added , We all need lots of cheep batteries if every trucker in the world wants and needs batteries we have a huge market demand .


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## specialprojectengineer (May 31, 2010)

Lots of interesting comments. I was thinking of three concepts. One like the itselectric version with a helper motor tied to the rear axle (you could simply do a conversion kit with this one). 2nd concept with mounting the motors in the wheels (way more expensive, still could do a conversion kit, but most likely would still require the engine), or third, all electric (battery weight would be prohibitive, or would still require ICE). Using ICE to convert fuel to electricity then to motion loses a lot in efficiency, but there are already a lot of systems out there (like hybrid cars), so scaling up would be most difficult part. As far as cost, each concept, as well as others here, have their pros and cons. Govt. grants, tax incentives, etc. would lower cost, especially if targeting the used truck market (who wants to pay that much for a new truck, just to get it converted for even more money?). The carbon footprint has already been done for all the hundreds of thousands of trucks already built and on the road. Truckers are already squeezed to razor thin margins, especially if independent, so cost is important. Would simple aerodynamic improvements be the best route? Perhaps, but I think more could be done.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One big area of efficiency gains is having a large enough house battery bank to avoid idling when parked. A straight hybrid won't gain you anything for highway miles, but a plug in hybrid where some of the mileage is pure EV might make a difference.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Aerodynamics would make a big difference to high speed, long distance work and I would recommend it whatever the power source.

It would be interesting to compare the weight of the truck's entire ICE installation to a plug in EV installaton. Would there still be a significant increase in weight compared to that of converting cars.
One would also need to consider any weight saving or penalty in alternative transmission types to suit the electric drive.
Hub motors would save the weight of the truck transmission but add to axle weight.
Maybe an electric truck motor would be torquey enough to reduce down from 12-18 gears to significantly fewer leading to a lighter, smaller transmission case and no splitters.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

specialprojectengineer said:


> Using ICE to convert fuel to electricity then to motion loses a lot in efficiency, but there are already a lot of systems out there (like hybrid cars), so scaling up would be most difficult part


Just the opposite- this tends to be more efficient. First, you must pick an efficient ICE and operate it at its most efficient speed. Second, that engine drives a generator and a generator alone. By operating at peak efficient ICE speeds, you gain more efficiency throughout the speed range of the vehicle.

And scaling up is not where one needs to look, it's scaling down. This is the system that diesel-electric locomotives have used for about 30 years. This is their secret to why they are so fuel efficient per pound of cargo.



Woodsmith said:


> Aerodynamics would make a big difference to high speed, long distance work and I would recommend it whatever the power source.


Agreed. In the 80's, Peterbilt had a COE that was very aero, but people thought it was ugly... even though it got 11 mpg fully loaded, which is astounding for a 40 Ton vehicle. That's like a Prius that gets 70 MPG if weights were equal.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One of those odd things with trucks (and freight trains) is that they are often more aerodynamic for their volume due to their length. So smoothing the outline a little makes a good improvement to an already good shape potential.

That truck is pretty good looking, but that is from a European perspective where many trucks are already quite well treated for aerodynamics.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it looks pretty damn cool actually  I've often wondered if vehicle length is similar to boat length, where long and narrow moves more easily than short at the same width. I'd make a longer narrower vehicle for more usable room with good aero. Stretch an EV1 or Solectria


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It probably wasn't received well because it is actually kind of 50s retro. It reminds me of those shiny aluminum trailers, can't recall the name. In the 80's American culture would definitely have preferred a more masculine, tough-guy, image for a Peterbilt. Think about it - Rocky, Rambo, monster trucks, etc. A bad-a$$ rig should have had a massive chrome grille, huge bulging fenders, and stacks billowing clouds of "power", back then. The oil crisis was over, life was cheap, everything was plentiful, and big was better.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it looks more like this:










Can't get much more powerful, masculine imagery than a locomotive.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> This is the system that diesel-electric locomotives have used for about 30 years. This is their secret to why they are so fuel efficient per pound of cargo.


 No, its mainly this:


> I've often wondered if vehicle length is similar to boat length, where long and narrow moves more easily than short at the same width.


:That is a key advantage of trains, very low drag ...and the very low rolling resistance of steel on steel.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 

A Hybrid or electric truck could also operate in areas where for climatic reasons (inversion zones) emissions are more important and (if a hybrid) go back to the diesel when out of that area


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> 
> A Hybrid or electric truck could also operate in areas where for climatic reasons (inversion zones) emissions are more important and (if a hybrid) go back to the diesel when out of that area


It would also be good for night time deliveries into urban areas.

I was just thinking that trucks moved to primarily diesel ICE giving improved torque and economy. That filtered down to cars. Maybe the same effect could happen with electrics too.
Diesels were once seen as slow, heavy and smelly and yet there are now RS and GT versions of cars with diesel ICE.


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