# Batteries - making a cheap demo



## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Yes, but how many amp hours is it?

Very cool!

desiv


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

That's sweet man. Reminds me of Doc throwing beer cans into Mr. Fusion.

When does the battery "run out of fuel"? Does the aluminum eventually dissolve into the solution (with no visible can remaining)? Then you would have to drain out the "hydrated aluminum oxide" as well as replace the can?

Or would you slowly get a buildup on the surface of the can and the battery would eventually not hold a charge? Then you just pull out the old can, scrub off the surface and put it back in or put a whole new can in altogether?

(I may have a fun project to do this weekend...)


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Good idea but nothing but cheap demos were found during my internet search.


yes - because a quick google summarizes the whole of human knowledge. 



gottdi said:


> Could use zinc, aluminum or copper or what ever I happen to have on hand.


Except zinc air batteries have about 1/4 the energy of aluminum ones, and copper has different properties altogether.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

ClintK said:


> When does the battery "run out of fuel"? Does the aluminum eventually dissolve into the solution (with no visible can remaining)? Then you would have to drain out the "hydrated aluminum oxide" as well as replace the can?


Aluminum atoms give off 3 electrons - eventually there are no more to be released. Before that happens, however, the surface is depleted. Others, including Jet Propulsion Labs, are experimenting with aluminum systems, some with aluminum powders suspended in conductive polymer to increase surface area.

The upside is quick recharging. Take out the old cartridge, put in the new one, and off you go. The "filling station" would then send the old cartridge in for recycling. If it were common, there'd likely be recycling depots in every city.

The cartridge replacement concept is not unlike the "fast charging stations" planned in Europe where an entire lithium ion pack is dropped out of a car and a new one inserted, then the old one charged for hours - only an aluminum cartridge replacement, or smaller catridges, plural, would collectively be a lot lighter than the lithium ion equivalent and the pack several times more energy dense; meaning a smaller pack, or greater range. Al-air batteries are the only ones so far projected to give the range of an ICE vehicle without the weight and expense penalties.



ClintK said:


> would you slowly get a buildup on the surface of the can and the battery would eventually not hold a charge? Then you just pull out the old can, scrub off the surface and put it back in or put a whole new can in altogether?


That's the essence of it. There are experimental electrolytes that slow the buildup of surface contamination, meaning longer times between cartridge changes.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Actually it gives millions of pages of nothing but garbage. I guess that summarizes the whole of human knowledge. Garbage in garbage out.


yup.



gottdi said:


> I am also aware of aluminum VS copper or any other medium. I was just stating only demos that anyone can produce can be found. Oh, I can find vague papers describing these and the potential but still only demo junk.


Close to verbatim what GM told NSU when GM's engineers were unable to make a rotary engine work.



gottdi said:


> No solid evidence of a useful product. Lots of hearsay. I said I can make a battery from my trees and from my oranges. Add enough and you get movement. Recycle and reduce the carbon foot print. But how practical would that be. No more practical than the aluminum demos I see. I said in the end that you all need to be realistic and get on with the program. Wait until you have a proven aluminum air battery before you jump on that band wagon.


What bandwagon? I posted a thread to show there are chemical alternatives to the "holy grail" lithium ion batteries, and explain mechanical recharging. 



gottdi said:


> Idea is cool but impractical at this time. Really it is. I am sure you know that too. Build one and see what actually happens. Build one with a shaker to help knock off the used aluminum oxide and keep the remaining aluminum clean and ready to produce electrons for our use. Keep an eye on the temps too. Many batteries have been built and are excellent but get soooooooo very hot during use and charging.


No shaker or mixer required - hasn't been for about 8 years. Electrolyte washing works just fine. As to temps, reread the above. These batteries are _mechanically_ recharged, not electrically. 



gottdi said:


> Home hacks never seem to get more attention than a fun show and tell.


That's like saying science centers are useless because they demonstrate technology and scientific principles through simple experiments. 

I could start listing my credentials and projects I've worked on, but what the hell is the point? You've already pidgeonholed me as a 'hack'. Here endeth this dialogue.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Manntis said:


> Aluminum atoms give off 3 electrons - eventually there are no more to be released. Before that happens, however, the surface is depleted. Others, including Jet Propulsion Labs, are experimenting with aluminum systems, some with aluminum powders suspended in conductive polymer to increase surface area.
> 
> The upside is quick recharging. Take out the old cartridge, put in the new one, and off you go. The "filling station" would then send the old cartridge in for recycling. If it were common, there'd likely be recycling depots in every city.
> 
> ...


If there is no closed electrical system, does the Aluminum continue to degrade? (If nothing is connected, is there much of a loss?)

I imagine the more current you pull the quicker the Aluminum degrades.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I appreciate the cheap demo. In all of my life of looking into something I didn't understand, I have found demos such as this that have led to a "better" something or other.
The basic understanding of anything helps in the further developement.
Most of all the technology, that we have today, started out as a simple idea that was expanded on.
Keep em coming.....


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2008)

> Most of all the technology, that we have today, started out as a simple idea that was expanded on.


No disagreement here but lets get out of the simple and expand. I see way to much simple without expansion. How about making an aluminum air battery in an old film container and use different kinds of aluminum as your anode. Different Cathodes and different electrolytes. Then test output and if it can be recharged or just need to replace the anode and cathode. What about aluminum and lead? Small scale is fine. What other kinds of metals can be used. 

It's only fun to do the hacks but we are beyond hacks. Children need the hacks to get the brain going but we need to be far beyond that at this point. Demos and Hacks are excellent for children to see. 

Pete : )


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Dam dude you use the work hack so much I thought I was on my RPG gaming forums. And so what if this is just a simple experiment I learned something from it, I had heard of AL air bats before but didn't know how they work and this "hack" experiment help me to understand it. Its not like he was saying you could run a car on soda cans and hydrogen peroxide, he was just showing the basics of the idea.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

gottdi said:


> In general these demos are not from science centers and most of the science centers are places to host show and tell small demos anyway. I have attended many. The videos on the web and the photos on the web including yours are simple show and tell hacks.


I don't take kindly to being repeatedly called a hack, especially from someone apparently too lazy or stupid to understand the difference in energy density between aluminum and fruit.



gottdi said:


> these really are not practical applications. If you are working on a big one for EV's then kudos to you but please don't toss show and tell hacks at us here. There are plenty of other sites that you can do that and wow the masses with your show and tell tactics.


you really beat that "show and tell" drum ad nauseum, don't you? I'm beginning to think some kid upstaged you in show and tell back in grade 3 and you've been bitter ever since.

By your logic, if I demonstrated the Coanda Effect using water and a teaspoon demonstrating how a fluid tends to stay attached to a curved surface, you'd start yelling "hack! hack!" and whine how my "show and tell" in no way proves that flying machines with metal wings might be possible. 

This is a technical discussion section. I'm introducing the concept of a high energy material more dense than offered by lithium ion batteries. If it bothers you, don't read it. Calling me a hack over and over is doing nothing to make whatever point you're trying to make, and being unable to comprehend energy densities ironically takes away your credibility - yet _you_ call _me_ a hack.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

ClintK said:


> If there is no closed electrical system, does the Aluminum continue to degrade? (If nothing is connected, is there much of a loss?)
> 
> I imagine the more current you pull the quicker the Aluminum degrades.


It depends on the design - the Aluminum-Ozone nones are particularly exciting since the electrolyte exists only in the presence of the ozone. Cut the ozone feed and the battery becomes merely aluminum in a carbon sleeve. No loss.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just to be clear I don't think he is calling you a "hack". A "hack" as become a common term for modifying something to improve it or change it's original purpose. Hacking a computer, hacking your Ipod, etc.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

manntis, nice work , how do we build one . if nothing but a get home battery it would be great . and for hot roding . do you remember the NASA redox battery , they used alumium waffle iron plates and had to change fluid more often then the plates . it was very hard to get details on that work at least at that time (1980 's ). a pairastlac pump with one hose / pump for each cell , kind of a mess but workable . I wonder if the cells could be bagged with hose manifold .


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## rebenergy (Apr 18, 2008)

Manntis thank you for the demo. Very entertaining and really gets the imagination juices flowing. Maybe if you would have posted your demo on chit-chat it would have been received with more of a positive response. 
Although I am a realist and working with present and past day technologies for my conversion, I am always egger to entertain thoughts of a better battery. Creating a fuel that when oxidized, produces an electron flow rather than heat and carbon dioxide may be more desirable than we realize. If I hear what you are saying correctly, then we should all enjoy thinking out of the box and not fear retribution for sharing our ideas


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## jamesasb (Jun 21, 2008)

thanks for the cool demo its always nice to see pics of new things (its new to me)


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Manntis said:


> It depends on the design - the Aluminum-Ozone nones are particularly exciting since the electrolyte exists only in the presence of the ozone. Cut the ozone feed and the battery becomes merely aluminum in a carbon sleeve. No loss.


Well I finished my contraption (looks very much like yours excluding the taste in beverage). I have a similar voltage, but can't get a measurable current. I tried a small LED, small resistor, even short circuited the device and the current still reads 0 (multimeter placed in series).

Any ideas? I'm going to try some aluminum foil next. I need to track down some Hydrochloric Acid for a better electrolyte. What do you suggest for a better air cathode?


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Well I finished my contraption (looks very much like yours excluding the taste in beverage). I have a similar voltage, but can't get a measurable current. I tried a small LED, small resistor, even short circuited the device and the current still reads 0 (multimeter placed in series).
> 
> Any ideas? I'm going to try some aluminum foil next. I need to track down some Hydrochloric Acid for a better electrolyte. What do you suggest for a better air cathode?


activated charcoal works well for experimentation. There are also commercially available air cathodes, basically ribbons of porous carbon that trap air bubbles.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok lets see ? We'll need a Budweiser truck full of beer and a Kingsford bricketts truck and what else ? Oh ! the most important part . Who wants to help empty the cans  J.W.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

The concept of the al battery is fine but the way it was presented is just a show and tell that any one can do and it proves you can produce less than one volt. Oooooo! Impressive. I said I can do better hooking my meter up to a leaf on a tree and the ground wire touching the ground. Over 1 volt doing that. But still a stupid way to show something. It works but has no useful purpose. I see now that others are impressed with such a simple thing that has been done over and over and over for years. Build a battery with that concept and you may have some better ooooooos and aaaaaas. Yes you can do the quickie can battery but can you actually make a battery from aluminum that will actually do something useful? Do that and I will listen. You don't need much voltage to power a light or small motor. Maybe I will do that and out do you. I am giving you the opportunity to show your stuff that is above 6th Grade Science. 

I have no problem making these things but leave that little can trick for the elementary students. You can do better and you can do better than to blast me when I say go beyond that level. I even gave you some things to use and make one. You have things to do and it should not be all that hard. I guarantee that if you make that al battery do something you will go further and make a larger one to do more. Until you can't go any further. 

Pete : )

PS. I am not blasting you but challenging you like I'd do for students.


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## coil_nine (Apr 22, 2008)

Thank you for the demo, it got me thinking so I looked for Al-air batts. Al-air and other metal-air batteries are already in existence at the research and development level. They truly are very promising as a use-and-replace battery.

Hey, I started in the era of carbon batteries and D-cells (read: geezer) so I'm OK with the concept.

Here are a few links to useful info and some start-up firms that should give an overall feel for the promise of these metal-air batteries:
Electricity Storage Association
http://www.electricitystorage.org/tech/technologies_technologies_metalair.htm

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery

This abstract describes critical parameters to improve performance
http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/dissertations/AAI3103729/


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The concept of the al battery is fine but the way it was presented is just a show and tell that any one can do and it proves you can produce less than one volt. Oooooo! Impressive. I said I can do better hooking my meter up to a leaf on a tree and the ground wire touching the ground. Over 1 volt doing that. But still a stupid way to show something. It works but has no useful purpose.


...other than to illustrate the principle.



gottdi said:


> I see now that others are impressed with such a simple thing


Because it helps them understand the basic function if the aluminum air concept. I'm sure they're less impressed with your condescension and arrogance.



gottdi said:


> Build a battery with that concept and you may have some better ooooooos and aaaaaas.


No kidding. You seemed to have skipped over where I said *With proper refinement, *_such as getting rid of the gelling problem (gel builds up on the aluminum over time, coating it and reducing the surface area exposed to the electrolyte), using a stronger electrolyte, and a better air cathode *there's*_* no reason why one couldn't make simple, cheap batteries.

*...in the FIRST POST in this thread. But you were in such a hurry to sneer at the demo of the principle, you clearly missed it, since you're parroting it back to me now like you're revealing some great insight.

You go on about challenging students - I'm curious how you teach your students without introducing concepts in simple terms first. It says a lot about your character that you are quick to view others as students you need to talk down to without knowing what qualifications or background the person already possesses.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> PS. I am not blasting you but challenging you like I'd do for students.


..blasting..
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means .


I appreciated the refresher. It might be 6th grade science, but for some of us, that was a few (ahem) years ago. And for some reason, I don't remember everything I've ever been taught in school.

Thanks again Mannts.

desiv


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

Do you have some useful information on how to use this in an electric car? What kind of case should I use that won't short out or melt? How big should I make the Aluminum Air battery? Should I make a bunch of little ones and string them together? Or a few larger ones? This information would be useful. Where do I purchase the supplies needed? How cheap are the supplies? What should I use or not use for mixing the components before installing into the batteries? These need to be answered to be of practical use. Or better yet where can I go purchase them so I can install them into my EV and so I can lighten the load?

: )


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

> 20lbs of aluminum, properly exploited, could power an EV 400 miles or so and when the aluminum is spent, it gets removed, recycled (at high efficiency), and can be reused as fuel again.


Properly exploited is the key word here that it won't happen anytime soon. How do you get, could power an EV to 400 miles? Your words? Recycled at high efficiency? How do you know this? Do you know the process to separate the components left over after the aluminum has been used up and what is done with the waste components after the aluminum is extracted and reprocessed? Lets not get ahead of the cart here. Just because you can make it work on a small scale how do you do it on a large scale.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Take it easy.
desiv


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Just stop man. Stop.

Take out the condescending tone and this post:



gottdi said:


> Properly exploited is the key word here that it won't happen anytime soon. How do you get, could power an EV to 400 miles? Your words? Recycled at high efficiency? How do you know this? Do you know the process to separate the components left over after the aluminum has been used up and what is done with the waste components after the aluminum is extracted and reprocessed? Lets not get ahead of the cart here. Just because you can make it work on a small scale how do you do it on a large scale.


could have been a constructive reply to the 1st post.

If you don't like the thread please view one of the other many threads. I'm trying to have a technical discussion on the "Technical Discussion" board and shouldn't need to scroll through posts and posts of "THIS DOESN'T BELONG HERE".

Please man, just stop.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

It's not technical man.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*

Organic Battery.

Sweet, useable power if connected in series, compact, renewable, and best of all CHEAP. 1.089 volts. Mmmmmm. 

http://inertext.homeunix.com/organicbattery


Got one better? Show us?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*

Next on the photo album is our series organic orange batteries.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*



gottdi said:


> Next on the photo album is our series organic orange batteries.


 Hay ! I got a Sunpro meter just like that . Oh ! yours does RPM cool ! J.W.  ps nice fruit


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Look it up: Informal use of the noun.


Look it up. He was making a pop culture reference which apparently went over your head.



gottdi said:


> Properly exploited is the key word here that it won't happen anytime soon. How do you get, could power an EV to 400 miles? Your words?


Actually no - 7 different IEEE papers say the same thing.



gottdi said:


> Recycled at high efficiency? How do you know this? Do you know the process to separate the components left over after the aluminum has been used up and what is done with the waste components after the aluminum is extracted and reprocessed?


It so happens I do. WTF does that have to do with a simple demo of the principle? Nothing. 



gottdi said:


> You assume then that most people possess greater qualifications and have a better background but you still present only a hack. Gee I was bored and built a battery that produced less then one volt. Good qualifications.


Qualifications are papers and professional memberships, not forum posts. You really have no idea what a prick you're sounding like right now, do you?



gottdi said:


> Excellent background knowledge on the subject. The other stuff you quoted in your first posting was nothing more than regurgitated information you got off the web. I can do that too.


How do you think the 'stuff' gets _on_ the web? Some of us actually know a thing or two.



gottdi said:


> You got bored and built a hack battery but provided nothing that anyone else could not have found on their own. Your statement of building a SIMPLE CHEAP BATTERY does not fit any mold except the demo hack. It does fit the mold of some one who may try to make you believe that there really is a better solution to the problem of batteries for use with an electric car and presents the demo as the solution. It is not stated but it is implied. You implied it. You did not present it as something other than that. My challenge is for YOU to build a practical battery that will operate a light using the AL battery technology you have found on the web.


Okay, fine. Everyone should only talk about ideas when they've already been fully completed, in production, and on the shelf. Oh wait - if people did that, ideas would never get into production.



gottdi said:


> Make a battery that works and go beyond the elementary level. You provided nothing but entertainment. This is not an entertainment site.


Get off your high horse. You're the sole person complaining, whereas others are saying they now _understand the basic principle better_. 

We get it. In your mind, this thread is a waste of time. SO STOP READING IT. I'm not alone in this thread in telling you to knock it off.



gottdi said:


> My arrogance?


Sorry - your _continued _arrogance. Better now?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*

Yea it's nice fruit. Thing is, I can sell a batch of these and make enough to buy a nice rechargeable battery that will last much longer than the fruit as a battery. At least I have more than I can sell at this time. I think I will go juice a couple and have a nice cool one.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*



> How do you think the 'stuff' gets on the web? Some of us actually know a thing or two.


Any arrogant dolt can put something on the web. I guess you have never been to youtube.com have you!



> Qualifications are papers and professional memberships, not forum posts. You really have no idea what a prick you're sounding like right now, do you?


What are your qualifications? Or else you're arrogance is going to show.



> Get off your high horse. You're the sole person complaining, whereas others are saying they now understand the basic principle better.


Actually I have a Shetland so I'm not quite as high as you think. Get real, any of us here really already have a basic understanding of batteries and it does not take an aluminum can to show it. Nor an Orange Battery. Both very impractical even for show and tell. Good parlor trick though. 



> Continued arrogance


And your not?

Got one better than my demo? Mine has more power and is simpler to build and if you take the concept further you get what is already built. Lead Acid, Nickel Metal Hydride, Lithium, Your standard Dry cell and so on and so on. Nothing new and the concepts are poor for us old dolts. 

You still don't get it do you. Why hack old stuff and pawn it off as Ooooooh Aaaaaaaah! 

Heck you may even get a prize. Maybe even that $300 million one now on the table? : )


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*

I'm done with this now. Got it out of my system. I built a better battery. Now on to building my EV, powered with real batteries.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*



gottdi said:


> What is your's? Or else you're arrogance is going to show.


I _could_ list my education and professional memberships - I'm somewhat proud of them, and the 8 years of working in the field after qualification - but since you're the one holding yourself up as the master teaching all of us simpletons, you're the one owing qualifications. 

By the way, it's "What is yours?" - not a possessive. Perhaps you're just tired from lugging around that big brain.

Oh - you edited it to "What are your qualifications? Or else you're arrogance is going to show.". Still wrongo in the congo. "you're" is a contraction of "you are". "You are arrogance", while correct in describing you, is still incorrect in the context of your sentence. If you're (see how that works?) going to hold yourself above everyone else and act like you're the shiniest penny in the roll around here, at least learn to use an apostrophe. Or at least correct it properly the second time around.



gottdi said:


> Got one better than my demo?


Yes. Aluminum is proven to be one of the most energy abundant, lightweight metals available. And unlike lemons it doesn't rot in transport.



gottdi said:


> You still don't get it do you. Why hack old stuff and pawn it off as Ooooooh Aaaaaaaah!


Show me in my first post where I oohed and aahed over my own demo. I didn't. That's you projecting your own issues onto this thread, much like your overused "show and tell" crap.



gottdi said:


> Heck you may even get a prize. Maybe even that 3 million one now on the table? : )


First, it's $300 million. Second, it's targeted at American companies. I'm neither American nor am I a company. 

I know you're eversomuchmore educated than the rest of us mouthbreathers, Mr. teacher sir... but do try and keep up, mmmmkay?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*

Thanks:
$300 Million: FIXED
your's: FIXED 



> but do try and keep up, mmmmkay?


Okey Dokey Massa.

Pride and Arrogance fit very well together. : )


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: Organic Battery Building a Better Battery*



gottdi said:


> Any arrogant dolt can put something on the web. I guess you have never been to youtube.com have you!


gottdi







Have you been watching my videos on YouTube ? J.W.  LOL!


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## rebenergy (Apr 18, 2008)

Ok you two, I have seen the energy rise on these post to power an EV. 
I also have monitored many of your post and replies in the past and know you both have too much to offer to us without arguing. Is it possible to shake hands? There may be some onlookers whom are quite entertained right now, but we cannot afford to lose ether of you due to rise in tension .


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

> Have you been watching my videos on YouTube ? J.W. LOL!


Yes, far more useful than the can. Don't get me wrong, some stuff on youtube is pretty good and useful. Most is not and just plain garbage. Youtube has its place. 

Pete : )


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Mr Gottdi. You remind me of some of the teachers I have had over the years.

Since you value true information, that challenges the mind, could you direct me to a website or other source that shows the making of a AL/AIR battery that would match a 12 volt, 200 AMP deep cycle battery?

I would like to construct one, for testing purposes.

Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.....


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2008)

Point that I have been trying to make all along is that I have found none. I only found hacks of aluminum foil batteries. Now if I actually found a site that met your needs you would not need much but the information. Now what I'd like to see is a way to build my own batteries that could actually be used in an EV. So far batteries are not a home built item but built in a factory with all the safe guards in place for safety of the workers and consumers. I am sure a mini battery could be built that would put out usable power for testing. Testing for power output, amp output, heat output and durability. There is enough knowledge to use proven methods of building and build a test cell. Make a bunch of cells and put together a battery for testing. My two organic cells are still producing power. I need to refresh the anode and cathodes but still putting out power. 

You should be the one to build that battery. Maybe I will just take my own challenge since no one here wants to do that. They only want to show and tell. Now that we have the show and tell over lets build a better battery using items not normally seen in a commercial battery. That is the goal here and not the concept. The concept is proven. Maybe build an aluminum battery with orange juice electrolyte. Can't hurt to try. Foil is a good way to build surface area. Maybe you could stamp the aluminum foil to make more surface area. Layered cells to build the battery is a must. Try it and show your results. 

Pete : )


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

There is a French company working on it:
http://www.metalectrique.com/technology.html
But they too have not got to the product stage.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Interesting but still no meat of the matter. Only talk. They claim but show nothing to back that claim. I'd love to have a vehicle go 500km on one lump of aluminum. Clean it out and dunk another cube in and I am ready to go again. But alas it's only vapor at this point. Sure the can proves it can work but again so did my orange. More is need to convince me and many others. I am open to new but don't claim unless you back it up. I said an orange could do better than the can and said I could do better than 1 volt. I backed up my claim. It actually did better than 1 volt. The tree however only produces 1/2 volt so it did not get published. I'd love to see the AL-Air work as claimed. That is world changing stuff if it works as claimed. Even if it only does half as good as they claim it would be world changing stuff. 

I wish my orange was good enough to change the world. Oh well off for another couple juiced oranges and a cool drink of organic sunshine. 

: )


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> .... I am open to new but don't claim unless you back it up..


Personally, I am more open to ideas than that.

I'm fine with people talking about ideas. Whether or not they have "prototypes" or whatever. I always enjoyed theory as much as practice. And, call me crazy, but I think it can actually help.

It's like software. Way back, there were people claiming they could emulate other machines in software. There was lots of talk. And yes, there were lots of people "claiming" things with no backing it up. And some flat out fakes.

There were also quite a few people in your vein, who would tell people not to talk about it unless they could prove it.

Good thing they didn't prevail, because all the talk proved successful. A combination of people saying things such as:
"You should be able to do this."
"No, that won't work, but what about this"
"Hey, I can do this!"
"No you can't, but this might work"

etc...

The end result were some pretty good emulators. The conversations I was involved in were in the Amiga emulation scene, but the practice is valid in many other fields.

It's a good thing that there are skeptics out there, but I think it's a much better thing that people don't listen to them.

Just my $0.002 cents worth.

Keep bringing on the battery ideas; animal, vegetable, or mineral!  

desiv


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Prototypes are good and needed to show proof of concept. There is no doubt a working AL-Air battery has been built that produces usable power but to make the claim that has been proposed is world changing and quite unbelievable. Maybe they will have a good alternative to lead and maybe an alternative to the hydrogen fuel cell. This is after more a fuel cell than a battery. If it can be done it WILL change the world no doubt. 

You can either be honest in your claims or you can hype it up and make claims that are not even close to the truth to dupe people into giving you money for your research. There are people on both sides of that fence. I for one would rather be on the honest side. I do however understand both sides of the problem. Money is needed for research. But how do you get investors? Dupe or honest?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Well, after searching the web for details of an AL/AIR battery, all I find is a lot of people/companies saying that the battery is closer to an ICE, in performance, than anything else.

If this is true, why can't you find any construction diagrams or actual test results that wouild prove that??

3 days of looking has produced nothing that you can work with.

Most of these sites are dated 2003 or earlier. The French website was useless also.

Are we looking at vaporware here???

I guess I will experiment on my own.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> You can either be honest in your claims or you can hype it up and make claims that are not even close to the truth to dupe people into giving you money for your research. There are people on both sides of that fence. I for one would rather be on the honest side. I do however understand both sides of the problem. Money is needed for research. But how do you get investors? Dupe or honest?



There is also the thought that sometimes it's not hype and dishonesty, but people are just wrong. It happens that they say "Hey, I solved cold fusion!!" and they really believe it, but they're wrong.

Also, there's the thought that dishonesty can be critical.

I believe Winston Churchill "hyped" his country's performance in the war to be able to get them to survive until help arrived. Some people say it made the difference.

Personally, I don't believe people in general (I grew up in L.A. , so if they make some outrageous claim, I say "Great" and wait and see. It doesn't bother me at all if they "hype" it up.

Keeps me happier that way. How you ask? Simple.

If they are lying, I'm happy because I was right.
If they turn out to be right, I'm happy because they have made a difference. 



Also, if it's interesting, it will get me browsing and studying a bit and learning. I might learn that they are wrong, but I bet I learn quite a bit more on the way. Again, that's a positive.

desiv


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

> I guess I will experiment on my own.


Why waste the time trying to revive a dead horse? If it were alive then maybe it would be worth the effort.


Yes, old stuff is usually what you find. That is because it's dead. Google does not know living from dead so you find the dead amongst the living. If you don't look you think maybe it's alive. The AL-Air is a dead horse. But like I said a small prototype may exist that actually produces usable power but can't live up to the claims. Maybe it can't even live up to being equal to lead acid. Who knows!


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

> It happens that they say "Hey, I solved cold fusion!!" and they really believe it, but they're wrong.


I won't fully disagree with some of what you said but I have been around enough liars in my life to know that some are very good at making you believe they think they are correct but knowing full well they are just duping you. You think they believe they are correct but they are just duping you to get money. Happens all the time. I am a serious skeptic and very distrustful of most. Most folks know right from wrong and they also know if what they have achieved is correct or not. Take for example those folks that claimed they cloned a human. They even got in the news as a world shattering event but all along they were duping people to get money. They were your typical con artist and they just took a different slant and used human cloning to get your money. They got a lot of people thinking they had actually accomplished that feat. Sorry but they raked you through the coals. 

Lets take this a different route. What if they got you to believe that this battery was this world shattering thing to the point you were willing to invest your hard earned money because you believe that when it happens you will be set to make millions over night. You decide only invest a small amount to be safe (because you are) and you wait and wait and wait then find out the company is gone. And because they now have your money you will be angry. I don't care if you even invested in that knowing that if it failed you would not be out much. But because it was a scam and not a failed attempt you are not ticked off to no end. That is the skeptic in me. When claims like that are posted it's a BIG RED FLAG that SAYS SCAM JOB.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

experimentation is why we have EVERTHING we have today,i am sure it took a little experimenting for the egyptians to make paper out of papyrus.we still use the basics of that today,5000 years later.

perhaps if you had said: "go ahead and experiment,but be prepared to be dissappointed " you would not appear to be so arrogant.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

AL-Air batteries have been experimented with for a long time. Its a dead horse. Its not that they don't work but that they don't stack up to the claims and can't compete with what is already being used today. Experiment all you want. There are problems with it and trying to revive a dead horse will only result in a dead horse. There are problems with a lot of batteries that never made it to market. Not that they did not work but they were unstable or just flat out died too soon. Some could not be recharged properly and some were unstable during recharging. Try to recharge a drycell. Oooops. Won't work. But they do produce loads of power for a time. Then just die. For the longest time it's what we had for portable power and we still use it today. Making world shattering claims does not help anyone trying to make a better battery. Nor does it go far in trying to secure funds to build the better battery.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

> you would not appear to be so arrogant.


Don't go there. *Think*


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Lets take this a different route. What if they got you to believe that this battery was this world shattering thing to the point you were willing to invest your hard earned money because you believe that when it happens you will be set to make millions over night. You decide only invest a small amount to be safe (because you are) and you wait and wait and wait then find out the company is gone.


I think there's a huge difference between talking about a technology and putting money in it, whether it's an investment or a purchase.

I can, and do, happily listen to lots of theories about battery technology. Some intrigue me. Some less so. But I never discourage the conversations.
However, I don't put money in them either. Heck, Li-ion is a proven technology, but with all the talk about vendors and quality of the supply from China, I won't take that jump financially. But I'm not going to disuade conversation about the technology until a proven vendor with quality product can be found.

And then there's the whole "early adopter" area. Certain technologies might be money pits, but only for a while until they hit a tipping point or find some new methodology that makes it worth while. And then those guys who wasted their money might, just might, have ended up helping others, even if they never get their money back. Worth it? Who knows. I know more than a few people have been ripped off on Li-ion vendors. But the more people who buy, the sooner we will have more cost effective solutions. It's the same with other battery technologies. Let the conversations happen. Let those who choose to (it won't be me  invest in technologies. If 90% of them fail, that's 10% success, and some of that 10% probably was based on some of that 90%.

But I just think the possible benefits (the most obvious being the encouragement of study) outweigh the risks of fake technology, even if they are more common.

Also, I know that there are a lot of "bad people" out there, but I honestly think people are wrong more frequently than they are dishonest. It's just that you REALLY hear about the dishonest people. But who knows. I could be wrong. (or lying ;-)

desiv

p.s. You know 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot?


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

> But who knows. I could be wrong. (or lying ;-)


OK, you got me on that one. : )


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## Beshires1 (May 24, 2008)

Gottdi, well, well, well. Looks like you ruined my thread and got it deleted. Whats up with you? I see that your Here now stirrin up trouble. Oh I got it now , You have Gottdi stir up some trouble elts where now that my thread was deleated.


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## Nodd (Jun 6, 2008)

One word: Troll


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