# Arizona Has a LiFePO4 Supplier



## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Hmmm... $14K for 20480Wh... that's... $0.69/Wh with charger and BMS included!?!

I'm not an expert, but I think that's the lowest price I've seen on a complete LiFePO4 system. Now I just need to get that third mortgage.


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## Uncle Joseph (May 7, 2008)

Those are ThunderSky batteries, which I'm sure is obvious to most of us here. The prices do seem to be good, however. I wonder if they will back their sales advertisements.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> At the last EAA meeting a company called Elite Power Solutions did a presentation on its batteries. Elite stocks popular LiFePO4 batteries, their management system and chargers here in the US. By popular I mean that Elite has tried to predict which batteries must people might want, and they have stocked those formats. So, if you want a 144V 15Ah LiFePO4 system, chances are they have a very similar system in stock and ready to go. Elite actually had several battery configurations and a management system on hand at the meeting, so they look like they're the real deal.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like a sales rep, their site is http://www.elitepowersolutions.com/products/
> 
> I just wanted to post the exciting news... for me and others in AZ


So $9346 for Lithium Phosphate batteries + charger or $2500 for Lead Acid batteries + charger. (Lithium having life cycle, weight/performance, range, and local dealer benefits.)

I'm running out of reasons not to buy Lithium for my first pack! Thanks for the info!


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## divisionerror (Jul 11, 2008)

Complete systems like that are definitely something I'd want to be able to buy. In fact, their EV-90-40 system, with a range of ~55 miles at 50 mph, would certainly meet my needs and I'd love to have LiFePO4. I'll have to keep an eye on those prices...


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

divisionerror said:


> Complete systems like that are definitely something I'd want to be able to buy. In fact, their EV-90-40 system, with a range of ~55 miles at 50 mph, would certainly meet my needs and I'd love to have LiFePO4. I'll have to keep an eye on those prices...


not to cast dispersions,these seem like a fair deal. to get 55 miles you would have to average slightly less than 200wh/mile.. pretty tough to do.


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## divisionerror (Jul 11, 2008)

Would that translate to keeping a super light touch on the throttle? That could be a problem... 

Although, since my actual daily range requirement is probably only ~25 miles with a max speed of 45 mph for almost all of that, that might still work for me.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

what bothers me is the amount of amps needed for hills.if you live in the flatlands,not much of a problem.at 3c constant discharge flatlands would be fine for this pack.if you live in a place like i do,it might not be enough for some of the hills around here.case in point i have a hill that i travel over regularly that takes a good 4- 6 minutes to climb and is a very steep grade. 270 amps wouldn't cut it to climb that one.which would mean i would have to buy the larger amp hour pack.hopefully you are not in the same predicament.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Or you could put your transmission to a really low gear (like first gear) and let the motor spin at higher RPM, thus drawing less amperage.

You may not go very fast, but it would lower your amperage requirements.

Proof that they're ThunderSky Batteries:









If the quality of ThunderSky's batteries have improved this could be a great resource for the DIY EV'er.

They offer only a 1-year warranty, but that's better than nothing, if you can get them to honor the warranty.

Their 41KWH car kit costs only $25,590, or $0.624 per watt-hour, WITH BMS, Charger and 1-year Warranty.

This is the best deal I've seen so far on lithium batteries.
Especially considering it's a kit.


41KWH could easily give a 4-door sedan(300-350WH/Mile) a 100+ Mile range.

Seems like a great deal to me.


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

sweetness i live in AZ ...

why is it that they don't sell the charger separately?


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## divisionerror (Jul 11, 2008)

Mastiff said:


> only $25,590


Now, if only I could use the words "only" and "$25,590" together like that in a sentence and not cry, this would be awesome!


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

uuuuuuuugggggggggghhhhhhhhh!

Ok.. someone help me out here with a quick simple comparison.. Let's say I use a vehicle that will run about 300 WH/m and I only need average acceleration and a top speed around 60mph, average range of 50miles... 

How would an EV 90 40 system from the above company compare to a 120v system, with 20 t125's?? 

For a total newbie doing the math.. this is somewhat frustrating at times. I'd love to spend the extra money for lithium to save weight and space...


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

http://elitepowersolutions.com/produ...products_id=43 on there does that mean that i get 160ah for 288, for some reason i find this hard to belive...

and are these batteries good quaility, i dont want to put all my chips in on a pair of 2's

Dont they also ship out of arizona too?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Koneko said:


> sweetness i live in AZ ...
> 
> why is it that they don't sell the charger separately?


they do
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=9&osCsid=6dcc00ff38e53cca5830402bc2397656


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> uuuuuuuugggggggggghhhhhhhhh!
> 
> Ok.. someone help me out here with a quick simple comparison.. Let's say I use a vehicle that will run about 300 WH/m and I only need average acceleration and a top speed around 60mph, average range of 50miles...
> 
> ...


50 miles, 300wh/mile that's 15000Wh you need.

the EV 90 40 is roughly 11.5 kWh... not enough for that range requirement. You'd need the EV90 60 to get more than 15Wh. Its 17.3kWh


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

those aren't the same chargers... as in the package deal
and don't have the same battery numbers


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

zemon1 said:


> does that mean that i get 160ah for 288, for some reason i find this hard to belive...


Yes. You get a 3.2v nominal battery at 160 Ah (at who knows what rate, it doesn't say). 

I find any battery stats that claim an Ah rating without telling you which discharge rate determined that to be suspect. I doubt it's 160 Ah at the 3C constant or 10C "pulsed" they mention on that page, but I could be wrong.

Edit: removed some banter that I was all wrong about in every way... I need more coffee.


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

zemon1 said:


> http://elitepowersolutions.com/produ...products_id=43 on there does that mean that i get 160ah for 288, for some reason i find this hard to belive...
> 
> and are these batteries good quaility, i dont want to put all my chips in on a pair of 2's
> 
> Dont they also ship out of arizona too?


can't vouch for quality.... but that is the claim 
I would assume they ship out of az but it is probably cheaper for those of us in az ... not as far to go.... 3 hour drive for me to get there and most the other people in az 30 to hour 30 ....


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Coming back to what I was trying to say in my previous post, but wasn't thinking clearly...

At 3.2v nominal per module, you'd need to put 45 of them in series to reach a 144v nominal pack. That comes to $12,960 just for batteries for 160 Ah with a pack weight of 553.5 lbs not counting BMS. In my truck, that'd be good for about 45 miles best case, give or take (and assuming my calculations thus far are accurate, which they've not been proven so I don't know.) 

I could carry 3 parallel strings with similar weight to the PbA I will be using, for 480 Ah total capacity, with a price of just under $40k for batteries alone, and again not figuring weight or cost of BMS...

480 Ah would give me just barely more than double the projected range for my truck with almost 13x the cost (not figuring BMS cost).

Too rich for my blood.


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

TX Dj im trying to make a motorcycle (among other things)
im trying to get top speed of 75 and range of 75-100 miles at a cruise speed of 60-65 is that way out there for these batteries?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Koneko said:


> those aren't the same chargers... as in the package deal
> and don't have the same battery numbers


you didn't specify that you were looking for a specific charger... they sell chargers, just not the one spec'd in the car packs.

they do sell chargers, and I'm sure they'll sell one by itself.


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

doesn't lead acid have a lower life cycle ...meaning buying more batteries sooner


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

zemon1 said:


> TX Dj im trying to make a motorcycle (among other things)
> im trying to get top speed of 75 and range of 75-100 miles at a cruise speed of 60-65 is that way out there for these batteries?


no its not, but you're going to need to pack about 10,000Wh or more to get that range. Alot of motorcycles I've seen cruise just above 100Wh/mile. 75miles min, 100 max... so lets go 10,000W.

with the 60Ah 24 Cell motorcycle pack, its 4.61 kWh. You'd need at LEAST 2 and you'd get 9.22kWh.

Its doable, but this presents a Major problem. How are you going to FIT all those batteries in there to begin with? cars have trunks, motorcycles have limited storage space. Just something to think about. You might not be able to fit the chargers on with the batteries.

Another problem is budget. Are you willing to spend almost 6 grand for batteries?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Koneko said:


> doesn't lead acid have a lower life cycle ...meaning buying more batteries sooner


Yes, but right now, lifepo hasn't been around long enough to see some of the first people replace their packs with current technology. The manufacturers may quote high lifecycle, but I haven't seen it proven real world.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

frodus said:


> 50 miles, 300wh/mile that's 15000Wh you need.
> 
> the EV 90 40 is roughly 11.5 kWh... not enough for that range requirement. You'd need the EV90 60 to get more than 15Wh. Its 17.3kWh


thank you ... that's helps a lot... I wonder if they'd do a 90 50 system?? No sense paying for more than you need right? Though I could probably live with a 40mile range...

that still works out to about twice the cost of the related components for lead acid but seems like it would be much easier than trying to fit in 20 golf cart batts and adjusting suspension to carry the extra weight.. with one of these systems (if they perform as stated) you'd end up right around original curb weight


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> thank you ... that's helps a lot... I wonder if they'd do a 90 50 system?? No sense paying for more than you need right? Though I could probably live with a 40mile range...
> 
> that still works out to about twice the cost of the related components for lead acid but seems like it would be much easier than trying to fit in 20 golf cart batts and adjusting suspension to carry the extra weight.. with one of these systems (if they perform as stated) you'd end up right around original curb weight


again, you'll still have trouble fitting them in the bike. Look at the dimensions.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

zemon1 said:


> TX Dj im trying to make a motorcycle (among other things)
> im trying to get top speed of 75 and range of 75-100 miles at a cruise speed of 60-65 is that way out there for these batteries?


Ah, I see. I thought you were still looking to build the 175 mph supercar. 

160 Ah would lend a lot of range to a motorcycle, and do great things in the way of weight reduction, or could permit far better power/efficiency/range with the equivalent weight of PbA batts. It would take 22-23 batts to make a 160 Ah 72v pack, weighing in around 270 lbs. Still would cost over $6k for batteries alone, no BMS and all that.

If the bike looked and rode sporty, traveled far, charged fast, etc and cost under $10k, you might have a product that I'd buy.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

"again, you'll still have trouble fitting them in the bike. Look at the dimensions."

no doubt!! but you're confusing me with the guy who wants to do the motorcycle.. I'm talking about a car conversion... Sentra, Tercel, Paseo... really if I go the route of these smaller lithium battery packs.. so many MORE cars are possible!!


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

i want to go for both but i would like to make and sell bikes to raise some capitol for the car 
and ive backed it down to 125 =-)

also frodus the specs on the bike pack for the 60 24 batteries say this
*Battery Pack|* Battery Model *LFP60AHA* |Cell Capacity (Ah)60| No. of Cells12 |Total Capacity (kWh)2.30 |Max Power (hp)30.8 |Max Voltage (V)43.8 |Nominal Voltage (V)38.4| Min Voltage (V)30.0 |Battery Weight (lbs)66|

but you say 2 will deliver almost 10kw but this says 1 will dilver 2.3 kw so 2 would be 4.6 correct? looks like someones math is wrong, however somehow i think its mine lol

but above that it completely contradicts its self!
Specially designed for electric motorcycle application with 
ample power and extended range. 
- Package contains 24X 60Ah cells and one charger. 
- Capacity: 4.61 kWh; Voltage range: 60-87 V. 
- 1 year limited warranty included with package purpose. 

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=1_4&products_id=36 heres the link

i am willing to spend some money as it is to be a business venture not more than 20,000 i think but i am willing to spend some


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> "again, you'll still have trouble fitting them in the bike. Look at the dimensions."
> 
> no doubt!! but you're confusing me with the guy who wants to do the motorcycle.. I'm talking about a car conversion... Sentra, Tercel, Paseo... really if I go the route of these smaller lithium battery packs.. so many MORE cars are possible!!


DOH, sorry dude. I have a small window open at work and totally missed that.


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

frodus said:


> no its not, but you're going to need to pack about 10,000Wh or more to get that range. Alot of motorcycles I've seen cruise just above 100Wh/mile. 75miles min, 100 max... so lets go 10,000W.
> 
> with the 60Ah 24 Cell motorcycle pack, its 4.61 kWh. You'd need at LEAST 2 and you'd get 9.22kWh.
> 
> ...


they dont look that big in the picture next to the charger. they look like 2 packs could easily fit onto a bike....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sure they don't look that big, but LOOK AT THE DIMENSIONS! I've held Thundersky and some other no-name lifepo batteries. They're not small. They're light though, which is WHY manufacturers want them.

Just go buy 2 packs and fit them in if you think you can do it. thats 48 batteries. 12 packs of 4. Do you even have a bike yet? have you removed the engine, found a motor or figured out how much room you actually have when you're ready to install batteries?

I've already ran the calcs on my bike. Its a 700cc and i know for a fact I can't much more than 24 of the 60Ah cells. 40Ah cells maybe ~30.

They' end up being about the size of a small optima car battery for 12V 40Ah. but they're 1/3 the weight.


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

each of those battery pack blocks is a minimum of 215x115x244 or in inches 8.78x4.69x9.96 .... use the numbers given on site and 4 times the smallest demension of the battery .... to put even the 24 set on a bike would be hard i think especially since a motor cycle needs to be balanced in order to not take a dive.... not impossible thing to do just dificult


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## zemon1 (Aug 5, 2008)

i plan to make the bike, space is no issue, unless the damn thing looks like a 30ft long dragster. 

however my way of benchmarking wasnt as obscene as you made it sound granted that charger is as big as the ones ive seen my whole life...

Thank you koneko for the exact measurements, i didnt see them on the page i was looking at and i didnt want to confuse them for another type.

Thankyou everyone for your patients and assistance


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Voltage question...

The EV-90-40 batteries have a nominal voltage of 128, but peak of 160. How will that work in my ADC L91-4003 motor with a voltage range of 72-120?

If I bought Lithiums with a nominal voltage of 120, wouldn't their peak be near 150 V, and is that okay on my motor?


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

> why is it that they don't sell the charger separately?


 It’s because every charger is designed to work with a specific battery pack. I suppose that the company could sell you a charger separately (though I don’t know for sure), but the reason that they’re selling the chargers with the battery packs in the first place is to ensure that the batteries are treated properly. They don’t want any $20k battery packs coming back for a refund.


> Dont they also ship out of Arizona too?


 Yes, they do ship from AZ, but that is assuming that they have your system in stock. The company has tried to predict what types of batteries EVers will want and keeps those types of systems on hand. If you want something that they don’t have on the shelf, then you can expect a substantial delay – perhaps as much as a few months for international shipping from China. 
Again, these guys have been attending EAA meetings here in Phoenix for a little while now, and they were finally able to put together some inventory and give a very good presentation at the last meeting. They actually had some of the batteries, BMS units and chargers at the meeting to show off.


> 480 Ah would give me just barely more than double the projected range for my truck with almost 13x the cost (not figuring BMS cost).
> 
> Too rich for my blood.


 Same here, these batteries are still expensive (though they’re cheaper than many), but the fact that they’re actually in the US already is a huge plus. This was the problem with a EV supplier recently (not naming names). They claimed that they had kits ready to go, but in reality, they had a poorly developed kit that wasn’t ready yet and the Li ion batteries they claimed to have were actually still in China.


> no its not, but you're going to need to pack about 10,000Wh or more to get that range. Alot of motorcycles I've seen cruise just above 100Wh/mile. 75miles min, 100 max... so lets go 10,000W.
> 
> with the 60Ah 24 Cell motorcycle pack, its 4.61 kWh. You'd need at LEAST 2 and you'd get 9.22kWh.
> 
> Its doable, but this presents a Major problem. How are you going to FIT all those batteries in there to begin with? cars have trunks, motorcycles have limited storage space. Just something to think about. You might not be able to fit the chargers on with the batteries.


 One possibility in this case is to build a custom bike that is built around the batteries.


> Voltage question...
> 
> The EV-90-40 batteries have a nominal voltage of 128, but peak of 160. How will that work in my ADC L91-4003 motor with a voltage range of 72-120?
> 
> If I bought Lithiums with a nominal voltage of 120, wouldn't their peak be near 150 V, and is that okay on my motor?


 Hmmm… Well, 12V lead-acid batteries will show about 14.5V when fully charged. Multiply that by 10 batts and you get 145V. That is exactly what your motor is rated for. 120V nominal gives you a bit of lee way for a 145V peak. I doubt that 150V would be a problem. That’s my $.02 anyhow.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

BTW, I am really excited to see so much positive response to these batteries. Hopefully these things are as good as the supplier claims. Again, I am just passing on the word. I am not affiliated with these guys. I don't want to be lynched if these things go belly up for people.


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## Koneko (Aug 6, 2008)

it makes sense to only sell them with the proper battery pack size and bms .... i was checking the price and saw that the price for package minus battery and bms would leave their profit margin and the cost of charger and $5 hundred something was the left over for the biggest package and all others had a leftover of $1k-$2k ....it seemed weird the biggest package with larger capability charger is the cheapest ... it could be they have a large enough profit margin on the battery that it could offset a loss on the charger..... it just feels ackward for me looking economicly at it ..... sorry i obsess with number calculations others don't really look at...... sometimes it is irrelevant like this case (where it is just a curiousity of the business pricing procedure) but other times it is useful because i could figure out whether it is cheaper buying separately or in package(original goal and thought process when i asked the question).... it simply went over head that the only reason to buy a charger like that is if you bought the exact quantity of the other items in the package... only other reason to buy it would be if you bought or put together a comparable system with competitor parts which is bad for their business to sell you only a charger.... it seems so obvious after it was pointed out thank you


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Yes. You get a 3.2v nominal battery at 160 Ah (at who knows what rate, it doesn't say).
> 
> I find any battery stats that claim an Ah rating without telling you which discharge rate determined that to be suspect. I doubt it's 160 Ah at the 3C constant or 10C "pulsed" they mention on that page, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Edit: removed some banter that I was all wrong about in every way... I need more coffee.


You can find the stats for the batteries at the TS website (the manufacturer in china). Here is a link for the 160 http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200871782241.pdf

If you scroll to the bottom you can see a discharge graph for .3, .6, and 1C discharge rates. All three show a capacity of over 160Ah. It's not stated but seems the 3C rate may just be the 160 Ah?

This is the cheapest I've seen them as well. Hopefully when I'm ready to purchase batteries they'll come down even more and I'll skip the lead acid phase. I wouldn't mind commiting to the price if I knew enough of us have tried them and were happy. Tough call.


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