# Tesla vs Times! Elon Musk says Model S review is “fake”



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Of course it's fake. These 'journalists' aren't as dumb as their readers. They're well informed as to the strengths and weaknesses of EVs and specifically execute their tests to make EVs look bad without making it too obvious (to an idiot) that the test was calculated to provide a specific result.

Just like TG pushing the Tesla back to the garage. Haha! We had to take that shot because that's what would happen if you were to run out! A reasonable viewer wouldn't interpret that scene to actually IMPLY that the tesla had ran out, see, so no fraud!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

At least one part of Elon's argument might not be entirely accurate:

http://jalopnik.com/towing-company-the-nyt-tesla-model-s-was-dead-when-it-196100064?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Looks like Tesla released the logs:

http://www.slashgear.com/tesla-tears-down-nyt-model-s-review-with-cars-own-logs-14269310/


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Wow...I didn't even know they were certifying Joe Schmo tow guy to determine an EV's SOC.

Any tow flunkie who makes a fuss over how to move a vehicle when it is stuck in park has less experience than a college town tow guy with one hour on the clock.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Well it seems like he was on the phone with Tesla the entire time, so I would hope they would give him correct info. I still think the NYT reporter is full of it.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> At least one part of Elon's argument might not be entirely accurate:
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/towing-company-the-nyt-tesla-model-s-was-dead-when-it-196100064?


So the real question is, how was it that the NYT driver was able to completely drain the 12v battery?

This is beyond fishy.

At least the NYT is rabidly liberal - perhaps now we can stop hearing all the nonsense that anti-EV sentiment is somehow connected to a particular political party.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

I see a lot of Musk's rebuttals are nothing more than rather weak excuses


1. It is unreasonable to demand the "Car Reviewer" drive with the heat off when the weather is below freezing

2. The "Driving in circles" in the parking lot for "About a half mile' is ridiculous since the parking lot WRAPS AROUND THE BUILDING and the drive to the street is about a half mile long....unless you drive over the curb, through a fence and through a ditch

3. The 80 mph stretch was DOWNHILL , basically the Reviewer just took his foot off the accelerator and let the car roll

4. "Driving past charging stations" ......the reviewer was on the phone with Tesla constantly during this time and was never told about the charger he drove past.

5. Claiming the battery wasn't 100% discharged even though the car SHUT ITSELF DOWN due to low voltage and didn't have enough charge left to energize the parking brake when the tow truck arrived

Apparently it was only 99.99% discharged.....OK that was just a joke , the battery still had some charge in it but the FREEZING WEATHER caused the voltage to drop and trick the BDI into believing the battery was completely dead...after the car was allowed to sit in a heated garage voltage recovered enough for the car to turn on

But Musk claiming that this was some kind of malevolent act by the reviewer is pure BS



From what it looks like to me , the Tesla representatives who managed this test drive were so intent on keeping the "Total Charge Time" to a minimum that they had the "reviewer" charge the batteries for the minimum time it would take to reach the next charging station.....and failed to take into account the fact that it was below freezing that day.

So the car came up short.

And now they are trying to blame the reviewer for their own fuck-up.

If it had been a warm day and the Tesla representatives hadn't tried to cut it so close on charge times there wouldn't have been a problem.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 1. It is unreasonable to demand the "Car Reviewer" drive with the heat off when the weather is below freezing


No it's not. You're far better off turning off the heat and getting somewhere warm than running it until you're stranded in the cold.

And you don't even need to turn it off, just turn it down. Who drives with the heater set at 72? An idiot trying to run down a battery, that's who. Even with plenty of power running the heater at 74 degrees is stupid. That's uncomfortably warm. 



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 2. The "Driving in circles" in the parking lot for "About a half mile' is ridiculous since the parking lot WRAPS AROUND THE BUILDING and the drive to the street is about a half mile long....unless you drive over the curb, through a fence and through a ditch


If you looked at the logs, they indicate someone driving around in circles without much room, not the simple cruise/coast of someone pulling in to a rest area and charger.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 3. The 80 mph stretch was DOWNHILL , basically the Reviewer just took his foot off the accelerator and let the car roll


There are very few hills that will let you get up to 80 MPH when your cruise is set at 54. And if you're trying to cruise at 54, you'd be using your brakes to maintain control of the car long before you got that high. Did you notice how often the car was going 54? Almost NEVER.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 4. "Driving past charging stations" ......the reviewer was on the phone with Tesla constantly during this time and was never told about the charger he drove past.


They're saying the story's a farce because it implys that you can't get from A to B in an electric car. There are dozens of charge stations (most of them not Tesla's) that would allow any OEM EV to make that trip.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Have a third party run the test again. It is the scientific method, something which journalists really need to learn. If you can't repeat the test with the same results, than it isn't true. But, if it is close to running out of juice and certain scenarios would cause it to run out of power, then we know the answer.

The not recharging up to a safe amount seems weird, especially if the car tells you it doesn't have the range.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> Have a third party run the test again.


That was Tesla's response as well. "Musk and Tesla are inviting journalists to make the same trip Broder took in an effort to prove the journey from journey from D.C. to Milford is possible."

Not much of a stretch though. It's like one of us inviting people to drive my car to the corner to prove it can go that far. Meanwhile we drive it to and from work every day.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> No it's not. You're far better off turning off the heat and getting somewhere warm than running it until you're stranded in the cold.
> 
> And you don't even need to turn it off, just turn it down. Who drives with the heater set at 72? An idiot trying to run down a battery, that's who. Even with plenty of power running the heater at 74 degrees is stupid. That's uncomfortably warm.
> 
> ...



What I don't think you realize is that this WASN'T an independent review

It was a publicity stunt , run by Tesla, that went horribly wrong.

Representatives from Tesla were on the phone constantly with the driver ,telling him exactly what to do.

Tesla was trying to prove the car could make the trip with just short charges on the "Super Charger Network" 

And they screwed it up in a very public way , and now they're in "damage control Mode"

The car didn't die because of "5 minutes" in parking lot traveling below 10 mph

The car didn't die because of a few seconds at 80 MPH 


The car died because Tesla was expecting the driver to be a "hyper-miler" and he wasn't

He drove the car normally.

Tesla was expecting the test to be stacked in their favor and when the guy drove like a normal driver( actually slower than the traffic around him ) they accused him of sabotaging the test.

Which was a real good way of pissing the reporter off and guaranteeing a negative review.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> I see a lot of Musk's rebuttals are nothing more than rather weak excuses


I doubt the car is the problem here. I wonder how many other owners have been stranded with no power so far?




Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 1. It is unreasonable to demand the "Car Reviewer" drive with the heat off when the weather is below freezing


I will agree with you that in some situations, you do need heat. But a heater that would zap 4-5 miles of range an hour would be plenty of enough heat.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 3. The 80 mph stretch was DOWNHILL , basically the Reviewer just took his foot off the accelerator and let the car roll


I'm sure a aerodynamic EV is better than my car, but I had problems getting up that fast going downhill in the mountains. But it wasn't a continuous 80.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 4. "Driving past charging stations" ......the reviewer was on the phone with Tesla constantly during this time and was never told about the charger he drove past.


Doesn't the car warn you and tell you about the charging stations? He didn't seem the charge enough at one of them.




Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 5. Claiming the battery wasn't 100% discharged even though the car SHUT ITSELF DOWN due to low voltage and didn't have enough charge left to energize the parking brake when the tow truck arrived


Is there really an electric parking brake? That doesn't sound right.




Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Apparently it was only 99.99% discharged.....OK that was just a joke , the battery still had some charge in it but the FREEZING WEATHER caused the voltage to drop and trick the BDI into believing the battery was completely dead...after the car was allowed to sit in a heated garage voltage recovered enough for the car to turn on


What was the temperature of the battery? Doesn't the model S have a way to warm the battery up?



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> But Musk claiming that this was some kind of malevolent act by the reviewer is pure BS


He doesn't have much good to say about them
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...e-road-to-an-electric-future/?ref=johnmbroder

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/sunday-review/the-electric-car-unplugged.html?pagewanted=all&_r=5&

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/business/energy-environment/04mileage.html?ref=johnmbroder




Electric Forklift Guy said:


> From what it looks like to me , the Tesla representatives who managed this test drive were so intent on keeping the "Total Charge Time" to a minimum that they had the "reviewer" charge the batteries for the minimum time it would take to reach the next charging station.....and failed to take into account the fact that it was below freezing that day.
> 
> So the car came up short.
> 
> ...


Was the Tesla guy in the car with him? The reviewer should have known that you need to plan ahead. And is 550 miles really a fair test drive? Did he put more air in the tires or even check to see that they didn't go down in the 10 degree weather? How often does it get down to 10 degrees in that part of the country? Or does he want the perfect car after 1 year, while doing nothing to help make it possible.

Have someone else re-do the test, while supercharging past 72%, along with a better driving style suited to EVs...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> I'm sure a aerodynamic EV is better than my car, but I had problems getting up that fast going downhill in the mountains. But it wasn't a continuous 80.


Mountains? The highest elevation I see on the road around where he hit 80 is ~160'. Unless he found a parking garage to drive off of he didn't hit 80 MPH coasting.

The retard sounds like a teenager borrowing his mom's sports car.

"Yeah mom, cruise is set at 54...no I'm not speeding." gosh, I hate people only going 65...VROOM!!!

"No Ma, I'm limping along here at 45!"


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Other publications have already duplicated the route taken, and had much more success. Charged Magazine provides a nice synopsis of the whole thing here: 

http://www.chargedevs.com/content/news-wire/post/teslatimes-tiff-turns-tedious


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 1. It is unreasonable to demand the "Car Reviewer" drive with the heat off when the weather is below freezing


Yes, but the logs show that's not what happened. The cabin temperature was set to about 74F for most of the time, and briefly lowered to 64F. That's pretty warm for driving while wearing winter clothes (no jacket but long sleeves).

The story talked about "freezing", which suggests that the heat was essentially off.

Given that the high for the day was 22F, that's quite a bit of power taken by cabin heating.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 2. The "Driving in circles" in the parking lot for "About a half mile' is ridiculous since the parking lot WRAPS AROUND THE BUILDING and the drive to the street is about a half mile long....unless you drive over the curb, through a fence and through a ditch


The logs show about five minutes of driving after the end of the exit ramp. That's a disputable point, one that Tesla shouldn't have focused on. But it might suggest there was an attempt to run out of power where it was convenient.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 3. The 80 mph stretch was DOWNHILL , basically the Reviewer just took his foot off the accelerator and let the car roll


Uhmm, you haven't driving that stretch of I95, have you? I used to do it quite a bit. There isn't a downhill part that would allow you to coast to 80MPH.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 4. "Driving past charging stations" ......the reviewer was on the phone with Tesla constantly during this time and was never told about the charger he drove past.


A weak point for both sides, unless we get a transcript of the phone calls. Other EVs suggest nearby charging points when low. I don't know if Tesla does. (Note that it does have the most sophisticated dash in the industry.)



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 5. Claiming the battery wasn't 100% discharged even though the car SHUT ITSELF DOWN due to low voltage and didn't have enough charge left to energize the parking brake when the tow truck arrived.


Not quite. The driver stopped after traveling about 10 miles past the '0' range point, then shut off the car. Tesla states that the 12V "house battery" was discharged, thus the electric parking brake couldn't be released by the normal means. I think that we'll get more on this part of the story, since the 12V battery should have retained enough power for at least a half hour of interior lights, etc.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> From what it looks like to me , the Tesla representatives who managed this test drive were so intent on keeping the "Total Charge Time" to a minimum that they had the "reviewer" charge the batteries for the minimum time it would take to reach the next charging station.....and failed to take into account the fact that it was below freezing that day.


I suspect they believe that the driver fully recharged at each charging station, which didn't happen. Without real-time telemetry, they couldn't know that the batteries had much less charge than they expected. Rather than ignoring the temperature, they might have assumed that the low reported state of charge was a cold battery rather than leaving the charging stations only part way through a charge.


I too initially thought that Tesla had screwed up. What really pushed me to the opposite conclusion was the *very* specific numbers that the reported ("54MPH, "45MPH", "58 minute charge") were directly contradicted by the charts from the data log.

I now believe that the report set out to write a "interesting" story about the battery running low, without regard for what would happen during a fair test drive.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok , I've had a chance to read the reporters response, look over the logs released by Tesla and the weather reports and a few other things.


Elon Musk is lying....he's in full damage control mode.


1.The car had smaller "all weather tires" put on it just before the test, while the on-board speedometer was recalibrated ,the logs showing speed based on motor RPM were not.

The result is the logs reporting speeds approximately 10% higher than the speedometer.

When you factor that in the reporter was traveling at or near the speeds he claimed he was.



2. His claim that the reporter was driving around in circles in a parking lot to deliberately drain the battery is based on the reporter driving through a "wrap-around" parking lot looking for the charging station.

I've looked at aerial photos of the parking lot , it would be very easy for someone to spend five minutes looking for that charging station.

3.The tow truck driver confirms that the car was shut down and would not turn on.... and when he contacted Tesla for instructions on how to release the electric parking brake THEY told him the battery was dead.


4. The claim that the driver was "doing over 80" was based on less than 1 minute ...and because of the logs misreporting speed it was more like 73 mph

The reporter claims that he doesn't remember going that fast, says it might have been a "down hill stretch" ...more likely he had to merge into traffic traveling at that speed ( speed limit was 65 , so you know everyone was doing close to 75 ) this is something most drivers do by habit because its really dangerous to merge when you're going 20 mph slower than traffic 


5. As far as i can tell the only thing musk isn't misrepresenting is that the reporter DID turn the heat on,against the advice of the engineer, while he was driving in below freezing weather.


At first I thought the reason the representatives at Tesla had the reporter undercharge the car before the last stretch was because they were trying to keep the charge times to a minimum

But after reading what the engineers told the reporter to do to"recover milage....."

The fact that they recommended that he spend the first few miles "accelerating hard and letting the car slow back down with regenerative braking " is a dead give-away since the only reason to do this is to heat up the battery 

*....its clear that the engineers at Tesla believed the battery was simply too cold to be charged safely.
*
( the car had sat outside in 10 degree weather all night )

So they pointed him at a charging station about 1 hour away( 1 hour of driving would warm the battery up ) and told him to charge the car as soon as he got there at a low rate

He came up 5 miles short.


A cold battery would explain why the "range calculator" went from 90 to less than 30 over night

it would explain why Tesla told the reporter to charge at a low rate for only 1 hour

it would explain why they had him drive PAST a nearby station ( batteries still too cold to charge)

it would explain why the car was shut down and would not turn back on ...until after it had sat in a heated garage overnight.

it would explain why Tesla thought the car could travel 60 miles even though the range calculator said it couldn't.


Either the "Thermal Management System" on the car was inadequate to handle extreme cold , or it had stopped working.

*"Retesting" the car in warmer weather will prove nothing, what i would like to see is if a Tesla Model S can keep the battery warm enough after sitting in a commercial freezer all night.
*


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Man who drove Model S cross country is baffled by the advise given to Broder by Tesla staff and gives both Broder and Tesla advise for the next time:

http://www.plugincars.com/response-new-york-times-stalled-ev-highway-126416.html


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

rochesterricer said:


> Man who drove Model S cross country is baffled by the advise given to Broder by Tesla staff and gives both Broder and Tesla advise for the next time:
> 
> http://www.plugincars.com/response-new-york-times-stalled-ev-highway-126416.html


Thank you

An article by the owner of a Tesla that confirms that the car does have issues with cold weather and some of the simple steps that you can take to minimize the problem.


This wasn't a "conspiracy" by a NYT reporter to make the car look bad.

It was the the representatives at Tesla giving the reporter bad advice ...and then accusing him of lying when he gave a bad review.
( How they would think they deserved a good review after what happened is mystifying.)

Trust me , if your boss is "Pinch" Sulzberger and you criticize anything environmentalists hold dear ,you're risking your job so I seriously doubt the reporter would do anything underhanded to make the car fail.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Trying to be impartial, this event will become a real life scenario accentuating the I.F. ( idiot factor ). Users who do not bother to read the instruction manual will always have a negative result. For example, my daughter's teenage friend trying to top up the engine oil through the dipstick tube. On the other hand, the Aussie who drove South to North over the continent without re-charging had obviously read the Tesla manual


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Elon Musk is lying....he's in full damage control mode.
> 
> 
> 1.The car had smaller "all weather tires" put on it just before the test, while the on-board speedometer was recalibrated ,the logs showing speed based on motor RPM were not.


Where did you get that?

The _reporter_ speculated that a different wheel and tire combination explained the speed difference.

That's absurd. There are DOT standards for speedometer and odometer accuracy. Speedometers may report higher speeds, but not lower speeds. 

Most cars have multiple wheel and tire options, often as trim level differentiation or dealer up-sell opportunities. Larger wheels come with lower profile tires. The result is a combination that has the same outside diameter and revs-per-mile as with the smaller wheel, requiring no change in the speedometer calibration.

Most car guys know this. I expect that every new car reviewer knows this.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, that tyre diameter change is pretty critical information, so it would be very important to reference your source of that !


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> he's in full damage control mode.


Damage control ... absolutely... of course he is... weather the story is 100% true or 100% false , they would be in damage control mode either way.

Does the car have some potential issues ( particularly in the cold for BEV newbies ) ... Tesla would like to down play them ... of course ... they are selling it.

But the reporter in question is not a white sheet of honesty and accuracy in his unbiased reporting in this either.

- - - - - - 



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 1.The car had smaller "all weather tires" put on it just before the test, while the on-board speedometer was recalibrated ,the logs showing speed based on motor RPM were not.
> 
> The result is the logs reporting speeds approximately 10% higher than the speedometer.
> 
> When you factor that in the reporter was traveling at or near the speeds he claimed he was.


I have my doubts about this:

#1> In order for there to be a 10% difference from a different tire , as you claim here , the tire would have to have a 10% difference in circumference ... which means a 10% difference in Radius and Diameter of the Tire ... the Tesla Spec is for 245/45R19 which has about a ~27.7" Diameter ... for the 10% variation you suggest it would need a ~2.77" different Diameter of tire ... I think claiming ~2.77" change in tire diameter is a bit of stretch... 2% maybe ... 10%+ ... Less likely.

#2> Even if we grant the 10% ... there are many parts of the speed log showing him driving 20% to 30% faster than the 54MPH ... and more importantly , when he claimed he was limping at 45MPH , the log shows him closer to 55MPH ( about ~20% off ) ... 10% isn't enough ... the tire size would have to change about ~20% ( ~5.5" ) , in order for the reporter to not have been lying about his speed ... sorry , I think the reporter in questions reliability is more likely to be off than a ~5.5" difference in tire diameter ... and well , if we know he is lying about some things ... what else is he lying about?

#3> His claims of cabin temperature do not agree with the log:



> All the while, my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white.


But if you look at the Cabin Temperature Log ... Link ... it was not bellow 65F the whole trip ... and most the average cabin temperature was well above 70F... even if there were a few minutes or so when it wasn't at that temperature in sensor lag ... supposedly he was dressed for the 30F degree temp when he got the car.

65F+ should have been a nice and toasty cabin temperature ... not the freezing feet and white knuckles the reporter claimed ... especially dressed for the winter 30F conditions reported.

etc...

- - - - - 

So ... I'm sorry ... Tesla might not be 100% completely innocent / blameless here ... but that reporter is also far from 100% honest and unbiased in this.


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## Matter45 (Jan 2, 2013)

I agree. The typical person takes information for granted. They go by what they hear, and if someone out there who writes to the typical person feeds them this sort of negativity, they will believe it.

The fact is, the review is not neutral. It is negative towards the car, and that negativity will spread to potential buyers.

Trust is a big factor here, because information that you get from a source is never 100% accurate. So you have to trust that the source of the information is tied into the truth as much as possible.

The review leaves out vital information, and only dishes out what would get heaps of people’s attention. People want to hear about bad things in the world so they can stay away from it.

I refuse to read information from this review and from Tesla, as Tesla will be leaving information out to support themselves, as well as Broder’s review.
They are both trying to do their best to suit their needs.

Negative information has a higher impact and effectiveness then positive information, (which is common sense) and because of this the review article was reckless, it does not even give a chance for Tesla to explain why. That is pure fact. Freedom of speech sometimes sucks balls. I hate people who jump the gun and spread it to others.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

DJBecker said:


> Where did you get that?
> 
> The _reporter_ speculated that a different wheel and tire combination explained the speed difference.
> 
> ...


Talking to a Tesla owner.

and

The original article , the one Elon Musk is so upset about, listed the options of the car ( including the smaller "all weather" tires )

Its called "Checking your facts before you post"...give it a try

PS I said the LOGS were reporting a higher speed and the Speedometer was calibrated properly.



This whole thing has been a real eye-opener

I always wondered why the NYT didn't try to reign in the bias after almost all of their conservative and moderate readers cancelled their subscriptions
( that had to really hurt the bottom line )

But this story shows why , because as soon as they tell liberals something they don't want to hear ( Like the model S has trouble in cold weather ) they turn on them viciously.

This is an electric car forum ...you KNOW that lithium ions fall flat on their faces after sitting outside in a parking lot in 10 degree weather.

Yet many of you "put your brains on hold' and chose to believe some incredibly transparent excuses put out by Elon Musk.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Yet many of you "put your brains on hold'


How much brain power does it take to know 32 < 61? How much does it take to realize after having one close call you should fully charge? Nearly all of us have sufficient. You Brodies obviously don't.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Talking to a Tesla owner.
> <snip>
> This is an electric car forum ...you KNOW that lithium ions fall flat on their faces after sitting outside in a parking lot in 10 degree weather.


So, is it reasonable for the projected range drop from 90 miles to 25 when the temperature drops that much...or did he leave the dome light on?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

GerhardRP said:


> So, is it reasonable for the projected range drop from 90 miles to 25 when the temperature drops that much...or did he leave the dome light on?


I'd say that's perfectly reasonable. The ill-informed would say it's a 70% drop in range, but it's really a 25% drop in capacity. The problem is the idiot barely charged the night before.

Foul play wouldn't surprise me though.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> How much brain power does it take to know 32 < 61? How much does it take to realize after having one close call you should fully charge? Nearly all of us have sufficient. You Brodies obviously don't.


So are you calling the engineer at Tesla incompetent?


He's the one who told Broder the car would "Recover Range" as he drove it. 

He the one who told Broder to only charge the car for an hour at a low rate 

The car unexpectedly lost charge and barely limped into the parking lot the day before , the reporter was told to put the car on charge at low rate and was advised against trying to fully charge it 

Tesla already knew something was wrong , most likely the thermal management system had failed and the battery was already too cold.

In the morning the range estimator had dropped again , Tesla told the reporter to "condition" the battery by drawing current out of it 
( another attempt to warm it up )

He was then told to drive to a station an hours drive away ( to warm it up ) and then charge it at a low rate again

The car didn't make it.




Tesla is quibbling about charging it for 48 minutes instead of 60

Tesla is quibbling about driving with the heat on

Tesla is quibbling about a few seconds at 80 mph

Tesla is misrepresenting the speeds shown in the logs

Tesla is complaining that the reporter followed the instructions of the engineer instead of the owners manual.


The root of the problem is the battery was too cold and the engineer took a chance and gave the reporter bad advice.

And now we have Musk putting out "conspiracy theories' as damage control.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

At least one person on the Tesla end was an idiot as well, but have you seen phone logs saying Tesla told him he had enough juice when they say they told him he did not?

He had plenty of chances to charge more than he did. I can understand not wanting to spend all day at a slow charger but there's no reason not to take a quick fill-up when you can.


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Talking to a Tesla owner.
> 
> and
> 
> ...


Try checking your own facts before telling me to check mine.

The stock available tire-wheel combos for a Tesla S are 245/45R19 or 245/35R21. They are essentially the same diameter. The simplistic calculated difference in size is .1" (27.7" - 27.8") which works out to 0.3%. That's smaller than the range of effective rolling diameter among tire models. (Note: tire rolling diameter depends more on the diameter of its reinforcing belts, not the outer diameter of the tread blocks, so it varies less with wear than people expect.)

Even if there is a third, unlisted tire-wheel option, it wouldn't be different than the first two. A true winter tire package would have a narrower, higher profile tire while retaining the same outside diameter. You could describe that as being "smaller", but it won't affect the speedometer accuracy.


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## DJBecker (Nov 3, 2010)

It appears that this has concluded with Margaret Sullivan, the NY Times public editor, making a statement that essentially retracted the story.

One part of the statement “In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored.”

Adding that last phrase suggests that the NY Times accepts that the logs are much stronger evidence of what really happened than post facto recollections of the writer. 

I remain surprised that the newspaper allowed the writer to publish his rebuttal with essentially no fact checking or editorial review.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

She retracted nothing. Some idiots called it an apology, which it certainly wasn't.

"unaware that his every move was being monitored." = It's not his fault he lied about everything, he didn't know he was being watched.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll go over a few points.

Overall tire diameter was the same. Regardless, the logs come from the vehicle, so if the speedo was somehow reporting wrong the logs would have the same exact speed recorded. In any case, the tires were the same size. Rim size does not equal tire diameter.

The Model S is an EV with an AC induction motor, it has strong regen. It does not coast down hills and gain speed. It also holds it's cruise control speed very accurately because of regen.

Broder ran out of charge for one single reason, he never charged the car fully, or even reasonably. His first charge was a complete Standard Mode charge, but not a Range Mode charge. His second charge was not even a complete Standard Mode charge, he only charged the car to about 70%. His final charge was only to 28%. Anyone doing something similar in a gas car and then blaming the car for running out of gas would be considered an idiot. If Broder was freezing in the car, at a low temperature of 64 degrees, it's his fault, and he may have circulation issues.

Did Musk over react some and possibly misinterpret some the data from the logs? Sure. Did Tesla give Broder some bad advice? Maybe, we'll never know. Regardless, the fact that Broder, who claimed to be so concerned about his range, never once properly charged the vehicle, tells you everything you need to know. Throw in the fact that he previously wrote an article claiming that EV's are a bad idea, and that fact that a number of people have done the exact same trip quite successfully with plenty of extra range remaining, and draw your own conclusions. Overall I'd say Tesla came out looking pretty good and ended up getting more free good press than bad.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...-tesla-100-million/?google_editors_picks=true


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...-tesla-100-million/?google_editors_picks=true


Sounds like a good Civil Suit for damages for Slander.


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