# 400hp 775ftlb DC motor



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

This is what happens when you take the DC motor made for a forklift, open it up, and re-wind/rebuild it purposefuly for EV use...

Series-wound DC, 4-pole, w/interpole windings
12” diameter, 230 lbs.
400 peak horsepower
8000 rpm maximum
400 volts DC maximum
2000 amps DC maximum
775 ft.-lbs. peak torque

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/34ford.html

Imagine what could be done to a 9" motor...
....lighter overall with 250hp, and 500ftlbs torque???? 400V 2000A?? 8000rpm or more...??​


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Imagine what could be done to a 9" motor...​
> ....lighter overall with 250hp, and 500ftlbs torque???? 400V 2000A?? 8000rpm or more...??​


Hey Bowser,

Dream on. This is about all you can really get from a nine inch.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-crazyhorse-pinto-16474.html 

See post #19.

Divide those figures by 2. In the 150 HP range for a single 9.

Mike did a great job with that system. I doubt many, if any, could better his output. But what the heck, go for it.

Regards,

major


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

So what are the major differences in this rebuild/rewind that allow it to produce that much power? How were these hp/tq numbers tested? And why can you get so much more out of an 11 over a 9?


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

This is what I would expect out of a 13 inch motor from Warfeild! but unfortunatly you don't get this!! You get something Way way way less!!!

Yes major I understand you can't get this "monster Big block V8" power out of a 9 incher, but why is it that we are not seeing these numbers from the 11 or 13 inchers?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Georgia Tech said:


> Yes major I understand you can't get this "monster Big block V8" power out of a 9 incher, but why is it that we are not seeing these numbers from the 11 or 13 inchers?


Hey GT and book6,

Maybe it is not the motor but the source. If you don't have the electrical power to start with, you'll never get the ponies out.

Also, Mike is one of the few guys that actually posted dynamometer numbers. There are a lot of other claims of high power out there. This guy with the 400 HP 12 inch motor may or may not actually have that coming out the shaft. But realize that it is used with a high voltage lithium battery and Zilla 2K. And the guy doing it has been at it for like 10 or 15 years. And it is an interpole machine. Still, I'd like to see a dyno test of his motor.

The larger motors will ultimately be capable of higher power. But there are a lot of design details. So a certain 13 inch may not do any more than a certain 9 inch. But don't generalize that out to the universe. And back to the source. If you have a 150 kW battery and controller, and you get 150 HP with a 9 inch motor, you'll still only get 150 HP from an 11 or 13 inch motor.

What do you need that much power for anyway? 

major


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

My question is similar, why is the 9" not even close to the "12 inch" that was "built"...

Granted they were both "built" by two different people, so who knows...its likely they invested more time and money into the 12" than the 9s...

On top of all this, check this out!!!

http://www.electriclouie.com/motors.htm (deserves its own thread)

3000HP????? huh???? brushless??? (regen capable)???


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> 3000HP????? huh???? brushless??? (regen capable)???


Talk is cheap. 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> My question is similar, why is the 9" not even close to the "12 inch" that was "built"...


Hey Bowser,

If the 12" and 9" motors were the same length, the 12" would have 78% more mass. That is a lot more copper and steel and radiating surface area.

Reason 2: The 9" HP is dyno tested. The 12" HP is a claim.

Reason 3: The input side of the motor may be considerably different. Different battery, different controller.

Regards,

major


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

all good points...

I guess we need more information on this 12" built motor...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The Advanced DC motors seem to top out around 150 or so volts. Interpoled motors, like the Kostov that Wayland ran and the GE that Dennis Berube currently runs both have been fed higher voltages. Wayland said around 240 Volts. Both he and Berube had a 336 Volt pack, but I don't know if they ever smacked the motor with that much voltage. All things being equal, an interpoled motor can take higher voltage before arcing, so it'll make more power. The downside is an interpoled motor takes up some room in the motor to use for the interpoles.

In real life terms, Berube's single GE 13 incher with interpoles is turning similar times to drag cars with twin Advanced DC motors.


booksix said:


> So what are the major differences in this rebuild/rewind that allow it to produce that much power? How were these hp/tq numbers tested? And why can you get so much more out of an 11 over a 9?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> On top of all this, check this out!!!
> 
> http://www.electriclouie.com/motors.htm (deserves its own thread)
> 
> 3000HP????? huh???? brushless??? (regen capable)???


Thats not a joke, at least I hope not LOL!

Thats who will be building my motor for me. Mine won't be 3000Hp, but it will be a lot better and lighter than your average brushed 9" motor.

He has not maintained the website for over 2 years now and admits that because he makes a living in another line of work at the moment. But brushless motors of that size can certainly deliver several thousand Hp for a few seconds. Remember, there are no brushes to arch, and Louie uses rare earth magnets in his motors.

The really sad thing is that we are paying such a high price for brushed motors that are over rated, heavy, and inefficient. The warP series of motor is actually a joke compared to what brushless AC or DC motors are capable of if they are made specifically for EVs.

Look to the hobby industry to get an idea of what brushless motors are REALLY capable of when compared to their brushed counterparts.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

so where do you source brushless DC motors and can they use standard DC controllers? I'm about to buy a pair of 9" GE's for $200 each an I will rebuild. But I'm always curious what else is out there!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Louie can design and build the motor and controller himself since electronics are his thing, but the motor should be compatible with standard BLDC motor controlers like what UQM could sell for example (that is if you have an extra arm you're not using).

The motor will be done sooner than the controller, but I will probably go with him for the complete system even if I have to wait a little longer. It will be worth the wait.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Well we look forward to your data on the motor and controller from EL.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Thats not a joke, at least I hope not LOL!


 He makes some pretty major claims, I hope he really delivers. Do you know anything about his super batteries that I've never heard of? Do you know anyone who has used his motors and controllers?


> The really sad thing is that we are paying such a high price for brushed motors that are over rated, heavy, and inefficient. The warP series of motor is actually a joke compared to what brushless AC or DC motors are capable of if they are made specifically for EVs.


Of course you end up paying more for the motor and controller for an AC system than a series DC system.
Are you getting your motor for the same price or less than a Warp9?
How much for the controller?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> He makes some pretty major claims, I hope he really delivers. Do you know anything about his super batteries that I've never heard of? Do you know anyone who has used his motors and controllers?
> Of course you end up paying more for the motor and controller for an AC system than a series DC system.
> Are you getting your motor for the same price or less than a Warp9?
> How much for the controller?


These are the specs of my motor so far:

75 lbs,
8" case diameter, (9" overall),
8" long plus shaft,
6000 rated RPM (This is what I requested, he could make the motor run well up to 10000RPM or as low as 3000 or less depending on how its wound)
150kw peak power (by my request)
Constant power I'm not sure of yet, but I think it will be in the 30kw range
144V nominal (by my request)

The case of the motor could be custom designed to be up to 20" long with mind blowing power (I think 2000 Hp was what he told me). Provided you can actually power it with a big enough battery. I could have fit a motor of that size, but as it is, the motor is already about twice the power of the 4 cyl engine that it will replace, and about 35% the weight. Frankly, this is what an EV motor should be.

Louie quoted me $1500 to make the prototype motor, so the cost will be lower once the first one is made. The controller, will probably not cost as little as a curtis 144V controller, but it will be comparable from what I have been told so far. I also requested that the mounting face and motor shaft be the same as the warP 9".

I've talked to Louie on the phone a few times and asside from being overworked, he knows his stuff. Right now he makes his living with security systems, so for now at least, the EV stuff takes the lower priority. Please don't take offense if he is unable to return enquiries quickly. I just have to be patient because none of this is off the shelf right now. It could be 6 months or more before I even see the products.

He has done more than a few projects over the years, but like an idiot, I didn't write any of them down. Next time I talk to him, I'll ask if there are any links or examples that I could post here.

The batteries he has are the 18650 Lion, though I'm sure he has access to others. They're not exactly cutting edge anymore, but compared to lead, they will blow the rest away and will still out perform LiFePO4 for all out perfromance even if the life expectancy is less. They are currently the cheapest lithium ion battery on the world stage, so if he has the ability to assemble them into larger packs like what ACP did (and he probably does), it could be a good option.

Looking at some old Emails of his, the cost for the 18650 cells are $2 each with 7.5 wh per cell. Don't quote me on this though, because this info is a year old by now. I am using a chinese LiFePO4 battery so I didn't really ask about his lithium batteries recently.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thats a tiny motor! 8 inches diameter and 8 inches long???

150kw from 144V will require 1042Amps, thats a serious controller...

motor for 1500$?! wow, thats the price of a FB1 9" !!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> These are the specs of my motor so far:
> 
> 75 lbs,
> 8" case diameter, (9" overall),
> ...


Impressive numbers. Keep us posted.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Something I forgot to mention is efficiency. Louie claims (and I have no reason not to believe this based on what I already know) that his brushless motors can AVERAGE in the low 90s for efficiency, and peak in the mid-upper 90s. This means that under real world conditions the car could have a net operating efficiency close to, if not 90%. Brushed motors tend to get less and less efficient the harder you push them even within their normal operating limits, not so with brushless. Almost forgot the best part.

The torque range is almost completely flat. With brushed motors, the peak torque is near 0RPM, then it kinda bleeds away the faster you go. This motor has peak torque available close to the RPM limit. This is one of many reasons why the motor can operate so efficiently over such a wide range and power output.

I'm trying not to get exited, but with all the numbers and specs I'm collecting over the last few months, its hard not to. I figured even with a warp 9" motor, 100 miles of range would have been possible, and other conversions already done with LiFePO4 batteries agree with my assumption. But none of them use a high efficiency brushless motor like this. During a 1 hour chat with Louie on the phone we talked about my saturn build (among other EV stuff) and he figured it might even be possible to reach 150 miles with what I'm planning.

Its too bad Louie is all the way down in long beach (lucky *%#^$#& that he is!!). If he was closer I would gladly volunteer my time if it would help because he has some amazing EV related projects in the works. He wants to make wheel motors eventually, and not wimpy ones either......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Something I forgot to mention is efficiency. Louie claims (and I have no reason not to believe this based on what I already know) that his brushless motors can AVERAGE in the low 90s for efficiency, and peak in the mid-upper 90s. This means that under real world conditions the car could have a net operating efficiency close to, if not 90%.
> The torque range is almost completely flat. With brushed motors, the peak torque is near 0RPM, then it kinda bleeds away the faster you go. This motor has peak torque available close to the RPM limit.


 That sounds as if he's getting similar results as the Chorus Meschon motors, I wonder if he's figured out their winding and control setup, or recreated something similar on his own?



> During a 1 hour chat with Louie on the phone


 Hey let the guy get some work done on your motor  What sort of time frame is he talking about till the motor and controller are done?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think it will be about 3 months for the motor, and could be twice that for the controller. Thats the only real catch so far. Could even take longer....

What can I say, we covered a lot of ground during the discussion. I shared info on pricing of other similar products in the industry like wheel motors or brushless AC motors, some of it he knew already but some info was new to him. Sharing info is about all I can do to help him out for now at least.

But he does like to talk EVs, he did most of the talking


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I think it will be about 3 months for the motor, and could be twice that for the controller. Thats the only real catch so far. Could even take longer....


Damn, and you're already in the pipeline. That's the story of DIY EV'ers I guess, the good stuff is always just out of reach one way or another.


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## thormj (Jan 10, 2009)

Any news on the motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You mean any news since yesterday


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## thormj (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry... I goofed on the date (another forum I'm on has the "message date" where the "member since" date is on this one). 

/me smacks head


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

we need to edit this thread title to be called "Custom BLDC 150kw!!!!"

anyone know how to do this?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe we should wait and see what is actually produced.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Imagine what could be done to a 9" motor...
> 
> ....lighter overall with 250hp, and 500ftlbs torque???? 400V 2000A?? 8000rpm or more...??​


This guy's entire build makes me question things.

He's using the zillas, which is nice enough (though those I believe are about 3k each), but yeah his specs are highly suspect. Probably just max overrating as is common practice.

Remember, amplifier manufacturer's have done this sort of thing for yeaaaars. All of those 900w, 1200w amplifiers you see for your car, are generally 100-150w/channel amplifiers.

Good luck David.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe we should wait and see what is actually produced.


Yes, it will be a while before there will be any meaningful updates that I can offer. I can afford to wait a little while right now, but at this point you shouldn't wait too long on my account to see if this could be good for the rest of you. The truth is a warP 9" motor low tech though it may be can still run an average compact car fairly well and you can get them right now. KiwiEV proved that very well with his ADC motor powered conversion.

Its a similar situation like the battery I'm using. It should be amaizing, but you never really know until you have it. And when you actually get it is not completely in your control, so there are risks that come with it so its not for everyone.

I am a little supprised by the attention that this is getting. I don't know how long it might take before Louie is tooled to make these in higher numbers, but its nice to know that he should have a good market by the time he is ready.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I am a little supprised by the attention that this is getting.


Really? You're talking about a 75lb 8 inch motor putting out 150Kw, basically the same specs as an ACPropulsion setup, for $1500. If he can really do that he's blown everyone else out of the water and should own the electric motor market, even if his controller comes in at twice the price of the motor. Heck if he can do that he should be supplying motors to major car manufacturers. Which is one reason I'm rather skeptical. His price/performance ratio is way out of line with everything else, unless he charges almost nothing for his labor? Not that I want him to raise his prices or anything


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Technologic said:


> This guy's entire build makes me question things.
> 
> He's using the zillas, which is nice enough (though those I believe are about 3k each), but yeah his specs are highly suspect.


Try $4675.00 each if he's using ZK2 HV's. This guy has major coin.


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