# HYBRID EV - has anyone experience with that



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

From what I can tell, hybrids are just a romantic idea, and they don't really work. Society has become accustomed to having gasoline fueled engines, and people have a hard time grasping the concept of plugging their cars in at night like they do with their cell phones, and they have a hard time accepting that we only need enough fuel for the day, and not a weeks worth in the tank. Others just want to do their part in saving the environment and see hybrids as a symbol of this. People who buy hybrids want electric cars that run on gasoline, and they are not really ready to buy an electric car that runs on electricity. People have is a never ending appetite for perpetual motion and those who don't understand what perpetual motion is will continue to chase after it. If a car manufacturer offers a gasoline powered vehicle that is equipped with a perpetual motion system, naive consumers will buy them like hotcakes. If the perpetual motion system is meant to save the environment, sales will increase even more.
Pawiel, the only way to make an educated decision on this one is to learn a whole lot more about how hybrids work, and spend a chunk of time reading the alternators and free energy thread. Other members will tell you that hybrids work great, and others will defend their Prius purchase to the very end, unable to see through their own biased reasoning. My personal recommendation is to get the hybrid idea out of your head and convert the car of your choice to pure electric or to stick with an ICE.


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## Pawiel (Sep 15, 2013)

evmetro said:


> From what I can tell, hybrids are just a romantic idea, and they don't really work. Society has become accustomed to having gasoline fueled engines, and people have a hard time grasping the concept of plugging their cars in at night like they do with their cell phones, and they have a hard time accepting that we only need enough fuel for the day, and not a weeks worth in the tank. Others just want to do their part in saving the environment and see hybrids as a symbol of this. People who buy hybrids want electric cars that run on gasoline, and they are not really ready to buy an electric car that runs on electricity. People have is a never ending appetite for perpetual motion and those who don't understand what perpetual motion is will continue to chase after it. If a car manufacturer offers a gasoline powered vehicle that is equipped with a perpetual motion system, naive consumers will buy them like hotcakes. If the perpetual motion system is meant to save the environment, sales will increase even more.
> Pawiel, the only way to make an educated decision on this one is to learn a whole lot more about how hybrids work, and spend a chunk of time reading the alternators and free energy thread. Other members will tell you that hybrids work great, and others will defend their Prius purchase to the very end, unable to see through their own biased reasoning. My personal recommendation is to get the hybrid idea out of your head and convert the car of your choice to pure electric or to stick with an ICE.


Term "free energy" is for me an impossible thing. Your post brings back on the earth people who want to believe in that.
When I wrote aboud DIY HEV, I meant E-motor connected through a belt? with a motor. Basicaly - the e-motor should be synchronized with gasoline motor and rotate to make the fuel consumption to minimum. It should get information from CAN/OBDII? about throttle (of gasoline motor), actual fuel consumption and some other infos (speed?) and rotate with right rpm/power. 
Of course - no regen and similar things... Solution as simple as possible. Batteries charged from 230V/110V.
Simple to explain, hard to realize. I know.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

One of the big things that we use to calculate how far an EV will go, (range) is the weight of a vehicle, and of course the heavier it is, the more it takes to haul it around. You could add an ICE to an EV, or an electric drive system to an ICE, but either way the car becomes heavier and will take additional energy to move this heavier beast around. Obviously, if you used the ICE as a means to recharge the electric drive system, you would be chasing perpetual motion, but you mentioned charging with 220. If you charged up via external power you would be headed in a better direction, but then you still have the extra weight to haul around. Even if it made sense to run the extra weight of redundant drive systems, there is going to be an engineering challenge to make them function well with each other. OEMs have spent a fortune to do this, but they still do not get the same mpg as a pure ICE.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi,
I have been planning hybrid also and i would install motor between engine and gearbox.That way you could use only gas, only electricity or both. Smallest ice that can meet your needs and reasonable motor, like 10".
Clutch between ice and motor so you can leave ice out when not needed.Automatic gearbox for selecting gears, possibly without torque converter.
Car intended for straight 6 or V12 should have more room for such long package.

That is my plan, might try that in future. Until then i just drive full electric
Regards, Harri


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## Pawiel (Sep 15, 2013)

What EV car do you drive?
Greetings.


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## Jewelieanna (Sep 22, 2013)

Pawiel said:


> Hello.
> 
> Like in title - has anyone experience with that kind of vehicle? Of course, I'm talking about DIY.
> 
> ...


Good idea! I'm new to the ev world but my idea was to eleminate the batteries.start with a vw beetle, put a 50 hp or more electric motor kit (sold for 3k to 7.5k). Now instead of batteries arrange the front end to fit a two stroke engine (two strokes are easiest to convert to steam) running a generator head with enough current to power the 50 hp motor. Don't know if it is posibble but would really like to get some info on it.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Pawiel said:


> What EV car do you drive?
> Greetings.


Hi, i drive Range Rover ev and also have Jaguar xjs conversion that is not in use now.
Harri


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## Pawiel (Sep 15, 2013)

glaurung said:


> Hi, i drive Range Rover ev and also have Jaguar xjs conversion that is not in use now.
> Harri


You are an english car fan 
Good to read it. You wrote that your jaguar has hybrid. Very interesting.
Could you write more details about that?
Mayby you are writing a blog or there is a www to read about it?

Greetings.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi, Jaguar is not a hybrid. Plain old dc-motor electric. But i have been planning hybrid for some time. Haven´t had the time to actually do anything.
Details of my conversion can be found by looking vehicles from garage and following link there.
But Jaguars powerline is very long indeed, that would help if hybrid drive parts would be in one row.
Harri


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Jewelieanna said:


> Good idea! I'm new to the ev world but my idea was to eleminate the batteries.start with a vw beetle, put a 50 hp or more electric motor kit (sold for 3k to 7.5k). Now instead of batteries arrange the front end to fit a two stroke engine (two strokes are easiest to convert to steam) running a generator head with enough current to power the 50 hp motor. Don't know if it is posibble but would really like to get some info on it.


I converted a VW to electric and after weeks of cleaning up the oil, grease and getting rid of the gasoline smell I can't imagine why anyone would want to put another gas engine in the car and put all that complicated machinery between a new gas engine and that great electric motor. The beauty of an electric conversion is the simplicity of it. I understand that you did not ask for an opinion but that is the only info I have for you.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have been scratching my head for some time, wondering why somebody would modify their vehicle in way that is only going to give worse economy, and then it hit me! If you want more performance and don't mind paying a higher fuel bill, hybrids could actually make some sense! I live in CA where we can't hotrod our cars, and we have a smog test here as well. If an electric motor were to be coupled to the ICE, one could enjoy a big torque boost without having to worry about retuning the ICE, and it could still pass smog. You would not get the performance boost if you charged the pack with the ICE, but you could recharge your pack at home like you would for an EV. If you had a pto clutch or other electric clutch, you could disengage the "electro boost" when your pack gets low.


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## Jewelieanna (Sep 22, 2013)

Ampster said:


> I converted a VW to electric and after weeks of cleaning up the oil, grease and getting rid of the gasoline smell I can't imagine why anyone would want to put another gas engine in the car and put all that complicated machinery between a new gas engine and that great electric motor. The beauty of an electric conversion is the simplicity of it. I understand that you did not ask for an opinion but that is the only info I have for you.


I have converted a few small engines to steam power that ran off of a homemade hydrogen boiler I made. When doing these engines I come to notice that 2 stroke is easier than 4 stroke. If you read my entry you may remember reading the statement in parentheses about two strokes being easiest to convert. So my end hybrid whould actually be a hydrogen fueled steam powered electric beetle (no gas requiered). If you Have info on electric car convertion that would help I would be delighted.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I saw the reference to steam but didn't understand that this was going to be steam powered. Have you put one of your steam engines in a car yet?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I don't think a steam engine will be practical or efficient for a normal size vehicle. And hydrogen is another technology entirely. You may be able to extract hydrogen and oxygen from water by electrolysis, but then you must burn it in an ICE, and overall efficiency will be terrible. An engine that can use both is pretty much impossible. Here are some practical steam engines, some with alternators up to 10 kVA:
http://www.tinytechindia.com/steampowerplan.htm





 
And this is a very fascinating and unusual design:
http://www.greensteamengine.com/


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## Jewelieanna (Sep 22, 2013)

Ampster said:


> I saw the reference to steam but didn't understand that this was going to be steam powered. Have you put one of your steam engines in a car yet?


no. It is only been used to power a generator, and fun/show. The thing I have been wundering is, is it possibe to run such equipment as the electric motor, controllers, adapters, and accessories with a generator?Or do I absalutely need batteries!


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Jewelieanna said:


> no. It is only been used to power a generator, and fun/show. The thing I have been wundering is, is it possibe to run such equipment as the electric motor, controllers, adapters, and accessories with a generator?Or do I absalutely need batteries!


I think you are going to need a 12v battery at the minimum to boot up or run some of the accessories and motor controller.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Diy hybrid is possible, I am working on a series hybrid at work. While it is not a exactly a DIY build, all the ideas could be done DIY. You would need to find a small diesel engine (perferably) and run a generator motor and inverter with a capacitor bank to stabilize the voltage. If you size everthing properly you could have either a small HV batt pack or no pack. However a hybrid coversion adds lots of complexity to power managment, we have a team of engineers working on the project, so it would be hard to pull off for an novice DIY builder. Anything is possible with proper planning and resources. Being that this is diyelectriccar, you will get lots of naysayers and purists saying it can't be done( or shouldn't). The short answer is it is much more difficult and complex. Starting with an pure EV build would help you learn about the technology and build a knowledge base, which would set you to be much more successful in atempting a DIY HEV.


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## Pawiel (Sep 15, 2013)

winzeracer said:


> Diy hybrid is possible, I am working on a series hybrid at work. While it is not a exactly a DIY build, all the ideas could be done DIY. You would need to find a small diesel engine (perferably) and run a generator motor and inverter with a capacitor bank to stabilize the voltage. If you size everthing properly you could have either a small HV batt pack or no pack. However a hybrid coversion adds lots of complexity to power managment, we have a team of engineers working on the project, so it would be hard to pull off for an novice DIY builder. Anything is possible with proper planning and resources. Being that this is diyelectriccar, you will get lots of naysayers and purists saying it can't be done( or shouldn't). The short answer is it is much more difficult and complex. Starting with an pure EV build would help you learn about the technology and build a knowledge base, which would set you to be much more successful in atempting a DIY HEV.


Very interesting post and idea.
It would be great if you would share more infos about that project.
I saw your www... 
In another post I am considering using LiFePo4 CALB CA or A123 20Ah cells (for EV). But you have hobbyking Turnigy 5000mAh in your project.
It's very interesting for me. I thought, that Turnigy's LiPos are not suitable for EV cars project (because of strong currents and qty of cells, problems with ballancing, etc.). I know also, that turnigy lipos are quite cheap, that's why they were the first cells/accus which I considered.

How the cells work in your design? Do they keep capacity? Are there no problems with heat disipation?
Greetings!


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

This is the basic idea of a series hybrid. There are other types as well, I can't really go into detail about the work project until it goes public. We do have a small HV pack, however testing the generator with a load bank and some caps without the battery has shown us that the batteries are not entirely neccesary. 

As for my batts, my personal project is a kart, so the pack is only 150vdc and 25Ah so its a small pack. While generally Turnigys are "cheap" I have the higher end Turnigys and spent countless hour doing QC and running tests. I ended up buying 35 6s batts and only being able to use 30 due to QC. Building an EV is easy compared to building a battery pack from small cells, but if you need high C rates Calbs and the like just won't do. I had my pack 85 percent complete but was not satisfied with the design so I changed it, see build log below for details. I tested all my cells at 8C constant current and all had between 4.5Ah and 4.8Ah, which I was happy with.


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## Pawiel (Sep 15, 2013)

winzeracer said:


> We do have a small HV pack, however testing the generator with a load bank and some caps without the battery has shown us that the batteries are not entirely neccesary.


Very interesting.
I hope to read about your project more in the near future.
Caps + generator without battery - it looks to me like nice regen equipement.



winzeracer said:


> As for my batts, my personal project is a kart, so the pack is only 150vdc and 25Ah so its a small pack. While generally Turnigys are "cheap" I have the higher end Turnigys and spent countless hour doing QC and running tests. I ended up buying 35 6s batts and only being able to use 30 due to QC. Building an EV is easy compared to building a battery pack from small cells, but if you need high C rates Calbs and the like just won't do. I had my pack 85 percent complete but was not satisfied with the design so I changed it, see build log below for details. I tested all my cells at 8C constant current and all had between 4.5Ah and 4.8Ah, which I was happy with.


WHat model of Turnigy's have you bought?

What you menat saing, that if you need high C rates Calbs and the like just won't do"? You saing, that for higher current Calbs are not suitable (>3C)?


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes for higher currents and less weight, Calbs won't do. I have the turnigy nano-techs.

Here is more about my work project, just went live today.

http://www.zerosouth.com/index.html


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Those are some cool-looking track vehicles. Seems like an exciting project to be tested and used in Antarctica..


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Jewelieanna said:


> no. It is only been used to power a generator, and fun/show. The thing I have been wundering is, is it possibe to run such equipment as the electric motor, controllers, adapters, and accessories with a generator?Or do I absalutely need batteries!


You absolutely need batteries. without them you would have to have a peak power engine and generator connected to system which is going to be much heavier and more expensive than an average power engine/generator combo.

I always wander into these threads to ask why bother to convert a perfectly usable system of:

engine -> transmission -> wheels

to a much more complex system of (series hybrid):

engine -> generator -> batteries -> controller -> motor -> wheels

or (parallel hybrid):


```
engine ------+-
             | \
             v  \
       generator \
             |    v
             |   planetary gear/transmission -> wheels
             |             ^
             /\           /
            /   \        / 
           /     ---\   /
           |        |  |
           |        |  |
          v         v v
      batteries <->motor
```
What exactly is the point? Each of the three has an engine. Each transition wastes energy. All three need gas to run. So what exactly is the attraction of the bottom two as opposed to the simplicity of the first, which is a normal gas vehicle? What do you gain for the added complexity and weight?


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

You do gain efficiency in city driving, just look at the MPG a Prius gets. You don't gain much (if any) on the highway.

If this efficiency gain outweighs the cost, well, that's something else. But if you were aiming for cost only, you'd ride a bicycle 


Regards
Ektus.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Ektus said:


> You do gain efficiency in city driving, just look at the MPG a Prius gets. You don't gain much (if any) on the highway.
> 
> If this efficiency gain outweighs the cost, well, that's something else. But if you were aiming for cost only, you'd ride a bicycle
> 
> ...


That MPG isn't magic on the Prius. It's an efficiency that is gained by finely tuned engineering coupled with batteries. The electric system replaces the peak power of gas only vehicles with a much smaller average power engine.

But neither matches the efficiency of having a pure EV. A Leaf has the total energy capacity of less that 1 gallon of gas. Yet it can get upwards of 70+ miles on a charge. And at a daily cost that is almost nonexistent.

Hybrids will not work DIY. They will end up being most costly, more complicated, and more of an energy drain than if the original gas vehicle had simply been left alone.

We should all focus on fast charging, cheaper, lighter, more powerful batteries, and more charging infrastructure. Because in the end all hybrids are still gas cars. So I fail to see the point of EVing a gas car. If there is a need that only a gas car can satisfy, then I can rent or borrow one. But to carry one around all the time with my EV seems nonsensical.

ga2500ev


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