# [EVDL] Wheel motors



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the rear of a Geo Metro?
I was thinking that I could make a really easy hybrid with two wheel
motors on the back of my 96 metro. Anyone have any ideas for a good
running unit?


Jody

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the
> > rear of a Geo Metro?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What about PML?

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

Looks to me like a gGeo would work great!

-Ralph

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT)


> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I remember reading about something from a company making wheel motors
for the BMW mini. I can't find it again though. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:01
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel motors


--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the rear of a Geo
> > Metro?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's not entirely true. There are several Chinese companies selling
larger hub motors. The first one I found:
http://successmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/200091815/202692541/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html

They offer up to 5 kW hub motors. I'd think two of those would move a
Geo Metro alright. I have a buddy looking into hub motors for a bike.
He tells me he's seen several companies selling hub motors. He found
some expensive ones that were 25 kW, but more reasonably priced ones
around 10 kW. If he finds the link, I'll mail it to you.

To qualify this, I myself haven't physically seen these motors. But I
do believe they exist. You may have to deal with a Chinese company if
you're looking for a cheap price though...

-Steven



> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be surprised if anyone has tried this because
> > there is no such product as a wheel motor suitable for
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I remember reading about something from a company making wheel
> > motors
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Right. That was PML.

-Ralph


On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:01:53 -0400


> "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I remember reading about something from a company making wheel motors
> > for the BMW mini. I can't find it again though.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's one of the 10kW ones:
http://shiwei.en.alibaba.com/product/200036382/200820249/Accessories/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html

-Steven

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Steven **
<[email protected]> wrote:
> That's not entirely true. There are several Chinese companies selling
> larger hub motors. The first one I found:
> http://successmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/200091815/202692541/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html
>
> They offer up to 5 kW hub motors. I'd think two of those would move a
> Geo Metro alright. I have a buddy looking into hub motors for a bike.
> He tells me he's seen several companies selling hub motors. He found
> some expensive ones that were 25 kW, but more reasonably priced ones
> around 10 kW. If he finds the link, I'll mail it to you.
>
> To qualify this, I myself haven't physically seen these motors. But I
> do believe they exist. You may have to deal with a Chinese company if
> you're looking for a cheap price though...
>
> -Steven
>
>
>
>


> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd be surprised if anyone has tried this because
> > > there is no such product as a wheel motor suitable for
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have PML bookmarked, but I don't think you can actually buy their
motors. Can you? They're doing cool stuff. But I think they're
trying to sell it to Big Auto, not people like you and me.

-Steven



> Ralph <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What about PML?
> >
> > http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There was a new electric brake design by the Sideman's Company that 
replaces, the all the hydraulic lines, booster, and vacuum system.

Is to be in production for some 2010 ICE and EV's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPSoNfmoBXc

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven **" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel motors


> That's not entirely true. There are several Chinese companies selling
> larger hub motors. The first one I found:
> http://successmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/200091815/202692541/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html
>
> They offer up to 5 kW hub motors. I'd think two of those would move a
> Geo Metro alright. I have a buddy looking into hub motors for a bike.
> He tells me he's seen several companies selling hub motors. He found
> some expensive ones that were 25 kW, but more reasonably priced ones
> around 10 kW. If he finds the link, I'll mail it to you.
>
> To qualify this, I myself haven't physically seen these motors. But I
> do believe they exist. You may have to deal with a Chinese company if
> you're looking for a cheap price though...
>
> -Steven
>
>


> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd be surprised if anyone has tried this because
> > > there is no such product as a wheel motor suitable for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

PML - Been mentioned a few times now in this thread. They haven't ever
brought a product to market, according to reports from some other EVDL
members.

Ben

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT,


> N422G5G <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I remember reading about something from a company making wheel motors
> > for the BMW mini. I can't find it again though.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jeff and All,

Making a successful wheel motor isn't hard,
you just need to gear it to lower it's weight, increase
starting torque. Many early EV's were wheel motors,
especially early trucks. Some versions were planetary, rim
drive with 1 or 2 motors, ect. I think Dr Porsche's
excellent early EV was too.
But direct drive wheel motors are only good
economicly, unsprung weight wise in bikes, ect where you
push off with your foot. This is because without rpm, you
have a hard time starting up a hill unless you have
200hp/1000lbs EV or so which get both expensive and weighs
too much to be unsprung. But give it a 3-1 or higher gear
and you need a much less powerful, heavy motor, even less if
it's a series motor as most were.
For instance on my Ewoody my 35yr old
Citi-car 3.5 hp, 36vdc series motor had a bad brush holder
so to keep EVing, I put in my 9hp Etek, both rated at about
the same rpm and used the same gearing. Yet starting up the
library drive the Etek PM motor burnt up and once the GE
series motor was repaired with new brushes, holder it easily
did the same job at 1/3 the rated hp. So basicly any non
series field motor will only put out 1/3 the starting torque
a series version will including most PM, A/C motors. Some
Sep-ex, A/C or DC will somewhat but they are series really
magnetically, just with a separate controller for the field
for reverse, regen.

Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel motors
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT)

>--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the
> >> rear of a Geo Metro?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Was it the mini cooper??
Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV 
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders

> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:04:46 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel motors> > http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html> > --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"> <[email protected]> wrote:> > > I remember reading about something from a company making wheel> > motors> > for the BMW mini. I can't find it again though. > > > > -----Original Message-----> > From: [email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected]] On> > Behalf Of Jeff Major> > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:01> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel motors> > > > > > --- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"> > <[email protected]> wrote:> > > > > Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the rear of a> > Geo > > > Metro?> > > > Hi Jody,> > > > I'd be surprised if anyone has tried this because there is no> > such> > product as a wheel motor suitable for a Geo Metro. You see> > electric> > !
wheel motors for bicycles and little scooters. Most less than a> > kW,> > maybe 2. Some prototype wheel motors for solar cars. > > Not much more power and very expensive. And some hype about> > future> > products from companies like PML. But there is nothing available> > now.> > > > Wish there was.> > > > Jeff M> > > > > > > >> ________________________________________________________________________> > ____________> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.> >> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping> > > > _______________________________________________> > For subscription options, see> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> > > > _______________________________________________> > For subscription options, see> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> > > > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Ralph,

I did mention PML. Looks like vaporware to me. Try
to buy one. I did a while back see a price quote for
the PML wheel motor. About $35,000 each, IIRC. I
kind of think they want your money for a product they
will never deliver. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Jeff M 




> --- Ralph <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What about PML?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That doesn't bode well...

A couple of years ago they quoted me a price on their EWM30/60 of $2200 usd and 700 for the controllers....

now granted this isn't their "new" system....but it would work.

David
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"Product" doesn't mean reasonable price ;-) But like I said, I
believe they are available. I can't attest to the quality or
performance though. I was simply passing along information so that
you or anyone else that had the money and interest/sense of adventure
could look into it.

I like to start small and simple. So, my conversion will be the
typical, cheap, proven conversion 100's of other people have already
done. Maybe after I prove to myself I can do that, I'll consider a
conversion with hub motors...

-Steven



> Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steven,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jeff M,

Regarding PML,

I did mention PML. Looks like vaporware to me. Try
to buy one. I did a while back see a price quote for
the PML wheel motor. About $35,000 each, IIRC. I
kind of think they want your money for a product they
will never deliver. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Jeff M 


PML has signed an exclusive agreement with Volvo for development of their in-wheel 
drive system technology. PML has not reported results of independent testing on their system that was supposed to have
been completed last spring, before they signed on with Volvo.
Volvo is saying it will take "many years" for this system to be adopted in their passenger cars,
partly due to computer/software issues and problems with controlling all four motors at once.
Volvo engineers also adapted PML's motors to fit their wheel splines, and insisted on adding disc brakes to the PML motors, something the PML engineers saw as unnecessary.

For more on the Volvo ReCharge see: http://evtransportal.com/volvorecharge.html


When I asked Tony Posawatz of the drive system team for GM's Volt recently if GM had considered wheel motors for the Volt he said they have better potential for heavy vehicles, and that GM considered the fact that wheel motors would alter the handling characteristics of the car both for suspension dynamics and handling characteristics in cornereing that given the time line for development for their first electric drive vehicle GM decided it was more important that the customer not experience any dramatic difference in handling or performance and therefore the decison was made early on to use off the shelf components and not develop wheel motors for the Volt.

For more on the Volvo ReCharge concept that usesw the PML system see: http://evtransportal.com/volvorecharge.html

As for heavy vehicles, I've been very impressed by the eTraction syystem 

http://e-traction.com/index.htm

which is a patented in-wheel traction system under development in Europe since around 2004. 
They have reached the 10,000 mile mark in testing the system on prototype transit buses.
The system reduces drive train friction by over 50%.
An eTraction transit bus with diesel hybrid generator system and two direct drive electric hub motors gets 14.5 mpg compared to 4.5 mpg for a similar sized non hybrid bus.

eTraction is interested in finding manufacturers to develop this sytem for mass production.
So far there has been little progress in finding manufacturing companies willing to invest heavily in this promising technology.

Regards,
Peter Oppewall
Editor, http://EVtransPortal.com



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Peter,

Excuse me if I remain skeptical on wheel motors. Cars
and electric motors have been around for more than a
century. For that entire time, people have been
attempting to put electric motors in the wheels. And
how many highway capable cars with wheel motors are on
the road? Zero. Maybe one or two at an university
here or there, but nothing practical. And what is
different now which would make you think that wheel
motors are doable? Hi temperature superconductors? 
Or a new alloy with relative permeability of 20,000? 
I think not. 

The fact that PML, who said they had a product a year
or two ago, has gone exclusive with "many years" of
development, and GM decided against it supports the
notion that wheel motors are not ready for prime time.

I have been following the eTraction development from
afar. The gain in mpg cannot be attributed solely to
the wheel motors as one might be inclined to infer
from the article you quote. It is an interesting
application of the electric motor, but I doubt
commercial success competing against the more
traditional electric hybrid approach. Time will tell.

Regards,

Jeff M 



> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > PML has signed an exclusive agreement with Volvo for
> > development of their in-wheel
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

these may be terrible but for what it is worth here are several 
manufacturers.

http://successmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/200091815/202692142/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor/Electric_Car_Hub_Motor.html


> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I very much like the concept of wheel motors, to me it is a very elegant solution, and an incredible step up in the evolution of the automobile.....

They offer some amazing advantages in terms of ABS and traction control,

They allow almost complete design freedom to the vehicle stylist.

However....

Depending on how many driven wheels you have, they will be that much more expensive than a single motor/transmission set-up.

They add allot of unsprung weight which affects ride and handling, and it gets worse the higher the ratio of unsprung to sprung mass (not as bad on a real heavy car, but horrible on a real light car) this can be overcome by lightweighting of all the suspension components, wheels, and tires..but there is additional expense involved with this as well.

In order to create this "elegant" solution they have to use very high power magnets, which are more expensive. The two basic modes of failure for the magnets are heat, and vibration..either of which cause them to lose some of their magnetic strenght......the heat problem can be solved with sufficient air or water cooling, but the vibration problem is a little more complicated. Active suspensions can reduce this tendency....BF Goodrich actually made a version that has little springs and shocks built right into the hub assembly.

Both of these solutions again add cost....

David




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Peter,

Nice list. Guess you're a wheel motor type of guy. I
still say it is a great concept, bad idea. So we'll
just have to wait and see.

What exactly is all this driveline friction you think
will be saved? Rotational mechanical power
transmission is very efficient. Yeah there is sliding
friction in ring and pinion gear sets, but that goes
away with transverse motor mounting. Torque
converter/clutch losses, but those go away with a
direct drive electric system with a fixed gear
reduction. Take a look at the GM EV1 motor/transaxle
system and tell me how much driveline friction there
is. And then compare it to the ecomonics of using 2
or 4 wheel motors.

And when you go to "retracted mounting with splines",
it is no longer a wheel motor, is it? I find it
interesting that these "wheel motor" companies
invariably bring out non-wheel motor products. Just
like TM4. 

http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/motorisation/ 

Who I think has dropped wheel motors now.

Nice discussion.

Regards,

Jeff M



> --- [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jeff,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 1 Apr 2008 at 6:39, Jeff Major wrote:
> 
> > Take a look at the GM EV1 motor/transaxle
> > system and tell me how much driveline friction there
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your best bet at present would be to build your own to your specs,
start looking here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lrk-torquemax/
Its probably going to take several iterations and lots of time and
effort to get it right

-kert

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT,


> N422G5G <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Has anyone tried to retrofit a wheel motor onto the rear of a Geo Metro?
> > I was thinking that I could make a really easy hybrid with two wheel
> > motors on the back of my 96 metro. Anyone have any ideas for a good
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just to add a bit, here's a recent example:
http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/stand.html
apparently develops north of 10KW
Linked from this forum
http://www.rcgroups.com/electric-motor-design-and-construction-361/

Although its titled "RC", guys building larger motors for electric
paragliders etc are there and offering their insight.

-kert



> Kaido Kert <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Your best bet at present would be to build your own to your specs,
> > start looking here
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lrk-torquemax/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't speak German, so I may be missing something, but...

While it seems to be a nice motor, I don't think it's a hub motor. It
would probably qualify as a "near wheel motor" though.

-Steven



> Kaido Kert <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Just to add a bit, here's a recent example:
> > http://www.sinusleistungssteller.de/stand.html
> > apparently develops north of 10KW
> ...


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