# Taking the Thundersky plunge



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm doing it! But... I have 225 ah 144V Trojans. So 32.4 KW. How low of an AH can I go with Thundersky's and keep the same range?

I understand I can go lower cause I can discharge them more?

And I just found a site that has HiPower batteries at slightly cheaper than ThunderSky's, Which is better?

Plus, does anyone know how many amps I can pull with those? I don't understand "C" ratings, but would love to pull the 1000 amps the Zilla is cabable of.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm assuming the Trojans are FLA. If so, of that 32.4, you're only getting half after Peukert. Assuming you are going to keep a 20% Depth of Discharge on both, you would want 125 Ah; I believe they only make 100 and 200, so you'd have to get the 200 to keep the range. You'll get some extra range.

EDIT: This was the OP. As Roughrider pointed out, this is not correct. I'll leave it for historical purposes but see his post below for correct answers. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1c = the normal, 20 hour ratting, which is used in calculating the size you see on your batteries. So for a 225 Ah battery, it's 1C rating is 11.25 (11.25 x 20 = 225). 1c on a 200 Ah battery is 10 A. You can pull up to 3c safely for a limited period (you'd have to check the specs, but I think it's like 3 minutes), so 30 A per battery. TS tops out at 4c for bursts (< 10s I believe).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/EDIT


Okay for some better numbers.  If you went with 160 (since you need 125) 1c = 160 A. The 3c is still only 480, and even a burst of 5c, which you can do on some lithiums, but not all (check your specs before you try it!!) is only 800 A before Puekert. You still won't top out 1k if you buy the 160 Ah. The 200 you could, if Puekert didn't come into effect. Realistically, with cabling loses, internal resistance, etc. you would probably only get around 800-850 A from the 200's and 640-700 on the 160's.

Not sure about the other brand of batteries.


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

thundersky are making 40ah, 90ah, 100ah, 160ah, 200ah

If you want to keep cost low I suggest you pick lower AH and higher voltage

Less amps = less heat = more distance


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

rillip3 said:


> I'm assuming the Trojans are FLA. If so, of that 32.4, you're only getting half after Peukert. Assuming you are going to keep a 20% Depth of Discharge on both, you would want 125 Ah; I believe they only make 100 and 200, so you'd have to get the 200 to keep the range. You'll get some extra range.
> 
> 1c = the normal, 20 hour ratting, which is used in calculating the size you see on your batteries. So for a 225 Ah battery, it's 1C rating is 11.25 (11.25 x 20 = 225). 1c on a 200 Ah battery is 10 A. You can pull up to 3c safely for a limited period (you'd have to check the specs, but I think it's like 3 minutes), so 30 A per battery. TS tops out at 4c for bursts (< 10s I believe).
> 
> Not sure about the other brand of batteries.


this seams not right to me...

1C means that you can pull the full capacity in 1hour ==> 1C for a 200Ah battery means 200Amps and not 10A

3C means 600Amps

1000Amps ==> 5C


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I'm doing it! But... I have 225 ah 144V Trojans. So 32.4 KW. How low of an AH can I go with Thundersky's and keep the same range?
> 
> I understand I can go lower cause I can discharge them more?
> 
> ...


Few issues here:

1. 1000 Zilla amps are motor amps, not battery, plus its only for a few seconds, which is good, or you would blow your motor . Battery amps should be much less and should be limited by Zilla settings, so you don't kill your cells.
2. Theoretically you'd get same range with 100AH Lithium cells, but then you'd be limited to 3C ( rule of thumb ), which is 300 battery amps, which is low for your car.
3. Based on above, I would recommend to go for 200AH ( If you choose HiPower, since they only come in 100AH and 200AH), or at least 160AH Thundersky. This way you can pull more battery amps, 600 for 200AH pack, or 480 for 160AH pack and get more range as a bonus.
4. HiPower now has new 3C cells, their old ones were not so good 1C cells. New cells are very good quality, arguably better than Thundersky, but they are a bit larger and have large terminals. They will be fixing terminal size in future batches, but if you order now you'd probably get cells with large terminals. There is thread about it, search for it.

Hope this helps


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok here goes nothing,

as pointed out above. The C rating is the discharge/charge rating for the battery expressed as a function of the batteries energy storage capacity (Ahr rating). So for example thundersky batteries are rated at 4C continious discharge. This means that if you have a 100 Ahr thundersky battery you can discharge continiously at 4(100) = 400amps continious. 

You are basicaly asking two different questions in your original post, but you may not realize it. 

1) what size of thundersky pack do I need for comparable range?
2) what size pack do I need for my 1000 amp rated controller?

The key thing missing is your desired system voltage. You existing system voltage is 144V so I'm going to assume you have a LV zilla. If you have a HV zilla then my answer will be different. 

#1) you currently have a 32.4 kWh pack (but this rated at 20 hour discharge) at EV current levels you are probably getting about 50-60% of this capacity so you actualy have a 16.2kWh pack, assuming same DOD levels for the new pack and old pack you will need 144v 112ah pack, but you car will be lighter so you can proably use a 100ah pack and get similar range. If you increase your pack voltage to ~152 volts (max for LV zilla) at 100ahr you should definitly get similar range.
no the not so good part a 100 ahr pack max discharge is 4C, so 400amps. This isn't exactly using your Zilla much.

#2) if you want you use your zilla to its full capability you will need 1000amps/4C , 250 ah rated pack (they have a 200 and a 260). at your system voltage of 144V this will be a monster pack of 37.4 kWh, big range, big money.

my advice, buy the biggest battery you can possibly afford, I wouldn't recommend using a battery smaller then 160 ah with the Zilla. the CALB 180 Ah batteries may be a good choice and the 200 ah Thunderskys would be great if you can afford them. If you go for the 200 ah TS cells make sure you are getting new stock with smaller form factor (same size as teh CALB 180 and TS 160 cells) they will be easier to integrate. The old 200 ah batteries would quite large. Consider upping your system voltage to 152 V (48 cells) instead of 144V (45cells) but check your other components, but your Zilla can handle it. Also you'll need a new charger, or to reprogram your old one. Also there is the big BMS or no BMS question.

hope this helps.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

My current "dead weight" is Lead acid Trojans. When the batteries were new, I could get 1000 amps on the motor side, unsure of battery side. I did limit the Zilla to 400 amps, but Zilla really doesn't explain what those functions do, just how to change them. I played some, set it where I didn't think I was blowing anything up and left it that way. It been a while, so I forget what settings there were. That was 7000 miles ago.

Looks like at least 160 AH Thundersky's and maybe even up the voltage some. At 1C I can discharge it at 160 amps for an hour, for my 30 minute drive I could pull 2C at 320 amps, since I drive more around 0-200 amps, I can also hit 3C at 480 amps occasionally? 

Less weight, more discharge, equals a smaller pack, but for a few extra bucks I could get the 200 ah's and not worry I bought too small of a pack. Throw in an extra 3 batteries and...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Doesn't voltage equal top speed, and amps equals acceleration? My 144 pack had 80 mph top speed, and the 400 amps (limited in Zilla) had great acceleration.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess I'll go with 48- 200ah Thundersky's. I only need to travel just less than 20 miles, then charge for up to 8 hours, then drive home. Occasionally driving a little around town, but I would like more. More is better, especially if I can drive to EV shows with it. 
I'm still looking into BMS systems, don't want to fry these new batts.
My charger is a Manzanita, so I can adjust as needed.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

I think there is a misunderstanding here

The Zilla operates on a Voltage in x Current in = Voltage out x Current out

If your motor is using 50v (at that time) and your battery is 150v then if you have 
100Ah batteries at 3C = 300A battery = 900A motor

The voltage that the motor needs will be dependent on its speed
I believe most DC series motors that we use normally operate at a good bit lower voltage than the pack voltage 

I was originally going for 200Ah cells, but I am now going for 100Ah as they are
Cheaper!
Lighter! 
I will lose range - definitely
I may lose acceleration - not sure, 
*If* I can break traction with the smaller cells then the larger cells would actually make me slower - 
I look forwards to finding out!


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Duncan said:


> I believe most DC series motors that we use normally operate at a good bit lower voltage than the pack voltage


This is false and it makes your entire argument false.

Yes, power in = power out, but you can't just assume that motor voltage will not rise to the pack voltage, it does it all the time as RPMs go up.

The best way to calculate max battery current is to start with motor power. If Warp9 can take 100kW ( its just a round number to show my point, I don't know how much Warp9 can take off top of my head ) and you have 150V pack for example, then your max battery current could be up to 667Amps.

To back it up with real life data, my EV has 128V pack. Until I set battery current limit in my controller I could easily pull 550Amps from the pack. I even slightly damaged some of my 160AH cells by doing it. Since then I set the battery limit to 450Amps.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I think there is a misunderstanding here
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The only time the motor sees full pack voltage is when the throttle is floored and the motor rpm is higher than [where is comes out of] current limit.



Duncan said:


> I was originally going for 200Ah cells, but I am now going for 100Ah as they are
> Cheaper!
> Lighter!
> I will lose range - definitely
> ...


I disagree. I can show you how to break traction with 25 kW of power (low gears) but you won't be able to sustain that acceleration. 100 kW would most certainly be faster, even if you had to limit the initial acceleration to prevent wheel spin. (400 kW would be a riot!)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi EVfun

_*I disagree. I can show you how to break traction with 25 kW of power (low gears)*_ 

Aha - but I don't have a gearbox! - I am using direct drive!

But you are right anyway - more power means I can sustain the acceleration longer (higher motor rpm) 

The only time this would not count would be if i could reach max speed and still be able to spin wheels (speed limited by something else - max motor rpm? - police?)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not only will larger ah cells give you more range and more power but they will last longer since they will be delivering the same amps at lower C rates and generally being discharged less. If you want to pull higher C rates you might want to consider CALB cells. I've pulled 5.5C from my 100ah SE/CALB cells with no problems. I don't recommend doing it often of course but I've seen no change in capacity or power.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

So I settled for 45 160 AH's, did shopping around, even got quotes, but now I'm not getting any reply's except from the most expensive company. $1500 more than anyone else, but I can have them in a couple of days.

And BMS systems, the Mini BMS is cheapest, but might get corroded with dirt/water, and the other companies are not replying back (Thundersky, & that other guy with the touch screen BMS's)

I've got the money, sitting in the bank waiting...who wants it?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> So I settled for 45 160 AH's, did shopping around, even got quotes, but now I'm not getting any reply's


Did you try http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> And BMS systems, the Mini BMS is cheapest, but might get corroded with dirt/water


No more corroded than any other BMS and no more corroded than your cell terminals, carrying large currents. So, if you are worried about corrosion, then BMS is not your main worry.

I try to stay away from BMS recommendations based on my bias, so my response is not a sales pitch, just defending my product from such remarks.

Good luck....


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Not to mention any of the other electronics added to a car besides a BMS. Most vehicle setups that I've seen have the batteries inside the car or enclosed in some way to prevent at least the terminal side of the battery from being exposed to dirt and water and in colder regions usually you want to keep them somewhat sheltered from the cold as batteries perform much better if they are getting down to freezing temperatures or lower.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I have now! OMG they are cheap! I can get 200AH for the same price I was going to buy 160AH's! Thanks for that site!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

dimitri said:


> No more corroded than any other BMS and no more corroded than your cell terminals, carrying large currents. So, if you are worried about corrosion, then BMS is not your main worry.
> 
> I try to stay away from BMS recommendations based on my bias, so my response is not a sales pitch, just defending my product from such remarks.
> 
> Good luck....


Sorry, didn't mean to bad mouth the product. I just meant I don't currently have a top to my battery boxes (using lead acid). I may even go with them, and from further reading I guess I'll have to cover the Thundersky's, or figure out how to keep them dry and clean.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> Not to mention any of the other electronics added to a car besides a BMS. Most vehicle setups that I've seen have the batteries inside the car or enclosed in some way to prevent at least the terminal side of the battery from being exposed to dirt and water and in colder regions usually you want to keep them somewhat sheltered from the cold as batteries perform much better if they are getting down to freezing temperatures or lower.


I originally had the batteries covered in the bed of the truck, but then I had to hide them under the bed, and had limited room, so the boxes were only insulated with wood and some foam in a can. The tops were coverd in two pieces of plastic film with more foam injected in between to make a custom fit top. With the Thundersky's, I guess I'll have to go back to inside the bed till I can figure something else out.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

major said:


> Did you try http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/


Do you know if thier ThunderSky 200AH's come in the smaller form? I'm at the web site trying to decide to click on 160's or 200's...

200's put me at the edge of expense, but more is better!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Do you know if thier ThunderSky 200AH's come in the smaller form? I'm at the web site trying to decide to click on 160's or 200's...


Don't know. Ask Richard.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe there are two types of "200" ah TS cells. One form comes in above 200ah, the other one is physically smaller but just barely hits 200ah. I think they are "180" ah cells that came in high.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I have now! OMG they are cheap!


Hey, where did you see the cheap prices? I clicked on their "options" button and it added the freight, port and other charges and that made it more expensive than others I've seen. You then have to add shipping charges from their warehouse to you. Maybe I missed something.

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Yup, I just saw that and was going to post it here.

I really gotta read the fine print. These are about the same price as from HiPower, but these guys are responding back within minutes of my e-mails. Haven't heard from HiPower since Friday. I wanted a quote on thier BMS.

I know I've got the cash just sitting there, but I'm starting to think it'd be better to just buy 18 Trojans (6 of mine are new) and just get back on the road. Between BMS, shipping charges and the wait, then the re-configuring of battery boxes, I think the LA's will be an easier choice, that will get me where I need to go... maybe not.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> and the wait,


Did you ask Richard? He does carry inventory stateside. Don't know if he has what you need over here.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> I'm starting to think it'd be better to just buy 18 Trojans


It might be cheaper in the short term but they'll die quickly and weigh a whole lot more than Lithium. 

Check with the guy again and get the bottom line price so you can decide. There are other vendors like http://www.electracitymotors.com/store/ and Dave's http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries-c10/ with good prices.

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

major said:


> Did you ask Richard? He does...


He does carry them here... for an additional $37? each (don't want to mis-quote prices)


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

JRoque said:


> It might be cheaper in the short term but they'll die quickly and weigh a whole lot more than Lithium.
> 
> Check with the guy again and get the bottom line price so you can decide. There are other vendors like http://www.electracitymotors.com/store/ and Dave's http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries-c10/ with good prices.
> 
> JR


Its been an early day for me, I'm about busted!

I've had alot of learning today. I've been pulling 450 amps from the Trojans, and seems I can't pull much more from the Thundersky's, unless I get the 200's, then its still not good to pull over 850? though also seems I may have been killing the Trojans, although they lasted 7000 miles with occasional bursts of close to 1000 amps (had to try it!)

Plus, I'm back to "what do I get for lots of $$$$?" A guy here in Milwaukee has 200AH Thundersky's and said he gets a 200 mile range, another guy says B.S. (200 does seem way out)

I mean for $10,000 I really wanted to be able to spin the tires, go real fast and have a good 50-75 mile range. I'm not sure what it would be capable of. $3000 for a set of Trojans was OK for a test, but not $10,000!

I'm rambling...means I'm way too frakin tired to be thinking about all this...Maybe tomorrow


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> Do you know if thier ThunderSky 200AH's come in the smaller form? I'm at the web site trying to decide to click on 160's or 200's...
> 
> 200's put me at the edge of expense, but more is better!


TS is no longer making the 200ah cell in the same form factor as the 160ah cells (183*71*280mm* )*. They have told me it is too difficult to make so they will no longer be offering them. 

The New size is 183*100*280mm  

I have a customer in California that has 125 of the old size 200ah cells 183*71*280mm . I just talked to him and he told me he will get back to me soon with what he wants for them. This will be the last of the 200ah cells in that size unfortunatly. 

Best regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

One other thing I thought I should mention because I saw a lot of misinformation in this thread.

TS cells are Rated for 3C continuous discharge and 20C pulse except the 20ah cells which are 3C continuous and 10C pulse. 

I personally would not recomend more than a 10C pulse but I do know that they are very capable of 20C pulses

And for those that think a 100ah cell is not enough battery for everyday driving with a Zilla I would have to disagree. Otmar is running 52 of the 90ah cells in his 914 with a Z2K and even had it on the track in Portland a few weeks ago and they seemed to do just fine 

Now I must say I personally prefer to use the largest battery size I can fit in a vehicle ( I have always used 200ah and 260ah cells) so that I am rarely going over 1C. If you size your pack for a in this way you will likely see a better cycle life than if your running your cells harder


Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dave

I am building a light weight special and I am looking at minimizing battery weight and cost,

I calculate  hee hee 

That I will be using less than 120amps in normal use (battery current) and that if I go for it I will use 250amps for about 10 seconds

I am thinking of 60Ah cells - cheaper and lighter - 
So what is a pulse load? - 5 seconds? 10 seconds?

I think I could use 5C for 10 seconds in an eighth mile drag
(I am just using cheap road tires so I am traction limited) 

My calculations appear to show that at 480 amps (motor) I will spin wheels

I accept that I will have low range, and lower battery life but will 5C for 10 seconds make a dramatic difference?


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Hi Duncan,

5C for 10 sec is not a problem. We have done some pretty serious testing on the TS cells in the past and they can handle it no problem

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Powered By DC said:


> TS is no longer making the 200ah cell in the same form factor as the 160ah cells (183*71*280mm* )*. They have told me it is too difficult to make so they will no longer be offering them.
> 
> The New size is 183*100*280mm


This is rather troubling. It suggests that any further improvement in cell density is not likely to happen with the current crop of LiFePO4 cells. We saw improvements last year from the year before but nothing at all this year.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I did it, ordered 45 of the 160 AH today, will be shipped on the 30th, to arrive in a week +/-


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Nice!! and that's a nice amount of power too. Where you get them from, if you can say?

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I got them from Elite Power Solutions in Pheonix AZ for a nice $9731.88. Had I not opted for Pay-Pal and gone with a wire transfer to some foriegn bank something or other, I could have had free shipping (-$371.88), but I like the Pay-Pal piece of mind.

They also said this will include all straps, hardware and end plates - not really sure how many end plates. And the batteries are in AZ, so they ship and will be here in just a few days. I don't want to calculate how much I wasted for that convienence!

Dead Trojans allready pulled. Now I'm looking for a BMS. Found two touch screen BMS's, but I'm not sure ther're actually a BMS. Might use Mini BMS... and sending my Zilla to Otmar for repair. That'll teach me to "sorta" keep it mounted out of the weather!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> I got them from Elite Power Solutions in Pheonix AZ for a nice $9731.88.


Ok if you tell me that included shipping to you, then that's an excellent price. Plus you'll get it in a couple of weeks at most. And you're buying from a local company. 

I'm sure you're excited about the purchase. Keep us posted on your LA to Lithium upgrade.

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Thats to the door! Could've got some for $8900 but I'd have had to wait for up to 10 weeks and then I'd also have had to buy the straps seperatly.... would've added up to what I paid for these.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I got them from Elite Power Solutions in Pheonix AZ for a nice $9731.88. Had I not opted for Pay-Pal and gone with a wire transfer to some foriegn bank something or other, I could have had free shipping (-$371.88), but I like the Pay-Pal piece of mind.


So you ordered some of those GBS cells? They look interesting. Are they the cells with terminals at opposite ends? The 100Ah cell terminals are similar to TS and CALB but with a possibly better way to attach cabling to the terminals.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think he got the TS cells. The GBH cells are interesting but having the terminals at opposite ends looks as if it would cause some real packaging issues in most cases.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The GBH cells are interesting but having the terminals at opposite ends looks as if it would cause some real packaging issues in most cases.


I agree. I can only picture mounting them with the terminals on the sides and that would mean a high stack or a long row of them. If you mount them upright, one of the terminals is buried and unreachable. Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't seem they thought that through. Perhaps its intended for lower volt pack arrangements.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Or larger vehicles with lots of room.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> So you ordered some of those GBS cells? They look interesting. Are they the cells....


According to the pretty picture and e-mail discussions, they are the normal looking Thundersky's. (I'm not sure what a GBS cell is, but I'm going to find out...)


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> According to the pretty picture and e-mail discussions, they are the normal looking Thundersky's. (I'm not sure what a GBS cell is, but I'm going to find out...)


Previouly, when I looked on Elite's site, I didn't find TS under batteries, just the blue GBS cells. Just now I found TS cells under their packages. Did you buy a cell/BMS package, or did you negotiate a separate deal for your 45 cells?


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

JRoque said:


> I agree. I can only picture mounting them with the terminals on the sides and that would mean a high stack or a long row of them. If you mount them upright, one of the terminals is buried and unreachable. Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't seem they thought that through.
> JR


I think the opposite end terminal format allows the current/chemical reaction to occur across the entire length of the plates instead of electrons taking the shortest path across the top of the plates when both terminals are at the same end causing more heating at the top of the cell. Also, it would be pretty hard to cause an accidental short by dropping metallic objects on top of the cells. 

The long flat format might fit my application better, or other applications where the cells could be mounted under back seats, trunk floors or vacated fuel tank spaces.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

RE Farmer said:


> Previouly, when I looked on Elite's site...quote]
> 
> I bought the batteries without a BMS. I'm looking at http://www.evequipmentsupply.com/page47.html right now. He says it is a BMS and monitor. The site really didn't menmtion the BMS side of things all that well. I like the display functions.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

RE Farmer said:


> I think the opposite end terminal format allows the current/chemical reaction to occur across the entire length of the plates instead of electrons taking the shortest path across the top of the plates when both terminals are at the same end causing more heating at the top of the cell. Also, it would be pretty hard to cause an accidental short by dropping metallic objects on top of the cells


Yes, the theory of that sounds interesting. There will be a minute delta in resistance along the length of the anode. I suppose the part closest to the terminal will see slightly more current flow than the bottom of the cell. 

For long or high spaces this setup would work. You'd still need access to the sides so it's the width of the battery plus space to stick and arm in there and reach the endmost terminal. While it is more difficult to cause an accidental short in this type of setup, because we string them together in series, the potential for that is still there.

From Jack's EVTV video, he showed a cell emptying out completely out of electrolyte because they rest on their side. I think upright cells would "burp" but not necessarily spill out in those extreme cases. Do I remember correctly that Jack said it was 4 cells to each package (~12V)?

I like the terminals though. Having 4 screws on each terminal is a bear to assemble but it's not going anywhere once in place.

Not to take your thread too far off course, F16bmathis, but will your BMS take any action like discharging overcharged cells or bypassing charge current, etc? Personally, I don't see much of a point is spending time and money installing a BMS that tells you a cell is off but doesn't do anything about it. I read over quickly the link you sent above and that BMS does seem to action some, does it?

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Yes, the theory of that sounds...and that BMS does seem to action some, does it?
> 
> JR


I'm being told it does, so I hope thats true. If it doesn't, I'll be posting that all over here so no-one else has to spend over a grand to find out.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm being told by my wife that there's a huge pallet with a load of batteries waiting for me. I think I'm coming down with something... I should go home.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Yeah, you don't look so good. I hear there's a week-long flu going around. I may catch it too soon after placing my order...

JR


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Nice to get batteries so quick! wow....


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

F16bmathis said:


> I'm being told by my wife that there's a huge pallet with a load of batteries waiting for me. I think I'm coming down with something... I should go home.


Ordered on Monday the 27th, arrived on the same day the next week, wow!


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## rblack (Oct 3, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> RE Farmer said:
> 
> 
> > Previouly, when I looked on Elite's site...quote]
> ...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Well, I did pay ElitePower Solutions almost $1000 more for getting them quick. 
Opened the boxes, they came in packs of 4 with the end plates installed more copper buss bars than needed and all the nuts and bolts.

I'm trying to charge the pack in series with a 5 amp charger that doesn't seem to have a 3.4V setting. I put it in automatic, which shows about 3.7V, but it only charges for an hour (with one battery) before it shuts off. Guy at the4 hobby store seemed to be a battery kind of guy, and said it would work fine, so I'm going with it.

The pack will easily fit where the 6V Trojans used to be, but the bed frame may short out a row or two, so I'll have to work that out.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

F16bmathis said:


> Well, I did pay ElitePower Solutions almost $1000 more for getting them quick.
> Opened the boxes, they came in packs of 4 with the end plates installed more copper buss bars than needed and all the nuts and bolts.


Excellent! But wait, was that $1K above the $9.7K you had previously quoted? Or did they include the hardware without the extra pay?



F16bmathis said:


> I'm trying to charge the pack in series with a 5 amp charger that doesn't seem to have a 3.4V setting. I put it in automatic, which shows about 3.7V, but it only charges for an hour (with one battery) before it shuts off. Guy at the4 hobby store seemed to be a battery kind of guy, and said it would work fine, so I'm going with it.


Hmm. I'm not following this. You're saying charging the pack in series but then talk about 3.4V which is for 1 cell. Or do you mean serially one at a time after the other? At any rate, if your 5A charger is displaying 3.7V - and assuming your cell came charged to 50% - then you're not putting enough current through. It would seem your cables are too thin/long or there's significant loss in the charger<>cell connection. Have you measured the voltage at the cell terminals?

JR


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Excellent! But wait, was that $1K above the $9.7K you had previously quoted? Or did they include the hardware without the extra pay?
> 
> Hmm. I'm not following this. You're saying charging the pack in series... Have you measured the voltage at the cell terminals?
> 
> JR


See thats why I'm not an engineer. I meant Parallel. I ran the charger all night, it charged for just over 6 hrs before shutting off.

The $1K was included in the $9700 price. Had I wanted to wait I could've got them for $8800.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

How's this project coming along? I'm interested in the newest TS cells now. 

Did you get the newest ones? 

Did you get a closely matched set?

Early on I was turned off by TS cells because of higher internal resistance = higher heat generation = wasted power on heating batteries.

I'm searching hard for ir of TS cells. Hi Power is <2mo, Calb is <1. TS used to be like 3. Doesn't sound like much but it is triple the Calb thus triple the wasted power! That's one reason I'm going away from lead! 

To recharge my pack of US2200XC lead, nearly 20% of the input power at 28 amps is in the form of heat if my reasoning is correct. Basically my recharge last night wasted enough power to increase the 1500lb pack temperature 5 degrees F. That equates to about 2.1kw! All after only traveling 11 miles.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't know what the internal resistance is but it must be low on the newer TS cells. I have the small 60 ah cells and have pulled up to 5C (300 amps) from them. My pack stays over 116 volts (over 2.9 vpc on my 40 cell pack.) The Zilla controller is programmed to 600 motor amps but only 300 battery amps so I have some hang time at 5C (seconds at a time.)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

So when did you buy them and how many miles on them now. I've read where one guy was pulling 2c regularly with occasional 3c on his commute and only had like 7000 miles and lost a cell. Others were starting to fail he thought. But he has the older cells I think he bought in early 2008 before the addition of yttrium doping.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> How's this project coming along? I'm interested in the newest TS cells now.
> 
> Did you get the newest ones?
> 
> ...


Project is pretty much done, meaning I'm allready looking to do more!
I did get the newest ones, I think, bought one from an E-Bay vendor to test, the other 45 from Arizona, they have them here in the US. The set was matched except for the one I bought on E-bay, and after a couple cycles, its balanced in with the others. I have the MiniBMS installed, and cause I can't seem to throw away enough cash, I also bought a touch screen BMS that shows E-F, Battery V, Battery Amps, and shows all batteries voltages, and the highest and lowest voltage plus temp of 6 areas of batterys.

The Thundersky's have increased my range from the lead acid's in winter from 10 miles to about 65 miles, summer is even better. I've allready got 2000 miles on the Thundersky's. During summer, voltage did not sag enough to set off the LV alarm even with the Zilla and flooring it in 1st gear. During 10-20 degrees, I have to let off the juice some, or it'll alarm, but its still a faster car than stock ICE. Helps I dropped 1000 lbs of LA weight!
www.evalbum.com/1752


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> So when did you buy them and how many miles on them now. I've read where one guy was pulling 2c regularly with occasional 3c on his commute and only had like 7000 miles and lost a cell. Others were starting to fail he thought. But he has the older cells I think he bought in early 2008 before the addition of yttrium doping.


I bought mine a few posts back, Oct 2010? I've got just over 2000 miles on them. Had been pulling 1K amps through my Zilla till it had a hiccup, now I'm pulling over 1K on the motor side with a Curtis 1231C 500A modified to 650 or so I think.

Did he have a BMS system? If so, which one?

We've got an El-Camino here that does not have a BMS, yet... batteries are doing fine so far. Mini BMS is on order after the guy saw mine in action!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> Doesn't voltage equal top speed, and amps equals acceleration? My 144 pack had 80 mph top speed, and the 400 amps (limited in Zilla) had great acceleration.


No. They both work together. Check the site wiki about voltage, amps & power. Don't recall how it is listed but it is very informative.

Electricity is analogous to water in that voltage functions like pressure, amperage is like flow. You have to have pressure to force electron flow which is amps. 

Yes higher voltage will allow faster speed because it will make more current flow through a given load. 

You also have to have voltage to overcome resistance. Resistance is encountered in your wiring, bad connections, internal resistance of your batteries and the motor itself. Smaller wire has higher resistance to current flow. Installing larger wiring will facilitate efficient current flow, particularly important at higher amps. I run parallel 1/0 through the pack and single 4/0 in places under the hood. 

*FYI for you Zilla owners: *If you're drawing 1000A through a single 2/0 wire you're wasting some serious voltage in the process. If your wiring loop end to end from controller through the pack, contactors and back is 80 feet long, you're losing 6.4V in the wire. *That's the equivalent of giving up 2 batteries when you hammer it!* I use two parallel 1/0 which would only eat 3.97V, much better but not good. Using parallel 4/0 would get you down to only losing 1.98V in an 80' loop.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> No. They both work together. Check the site wiki about voltage, amps & power. Don't recall how it is listed but it is very informative.
> 
> Electricity is analogous to water in that voltage functions like pressure, amperage is like flow. You have to have pressure to force electron flow which is amps.
> 
> ...


You know, I never actually measured the distance of all the 2/0 cables, but I'm going with closer to a little over 20 feet. My intent is to install 4/0 when it gets warmer. Evey little bit helps.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> You know, I never actually measured the distance of all the 2/0 cables, but I'm going with closer to a little over 20 feet. My intent is to install 4/0 when it gets warmer. Evey little bit helps.


I took my truck on a speed run and hit 85 with it, later to find out *with a bad connection*. I saw you hit 78 or so. Could your wires have been part of why you couldn't go faster? Wasting 5-6 volts is a lot of wasted juice! 

During the run I had a connection melting so some of the power was being wasted. How fast could I have gone had it been a good connection? Don't know but a little faster for sure! Had you had larger wiring you likely would have been faster! 

I run 232ah US2200XC lead now. But those days are short lived. I'm upgrading to Calb 240ah x 48 pieces I think. I want over 100 miles range. People are always asking and when you say 30 it sort of throws a wet rag on it you know? Of course the larger the cell and lower C you draw the longer they will last so that is another reason to push my budget a little.

If you are running 1000A or close to it at times, you should probably do the parallel 4/0. When you run the power through two parallel wires instead of one, you're splitting the load and cutting your losses by half compared to one wire.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I'm upgrading to Calb 240ah x 48 pieces I think.


Are u using the Curtis controller still? Aren't u worried about the higher pack voltage??


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well this is what I know. The Zivan charges up now at 186V or so. As soon as you unplug it, the pack V drops to about 160 in seconds. How fast do these batteries settle out?

As a safety precaution, I wired the Zivan aux. contacts through the controls so if I'm charging, the controller can't be energized so it won't see that voltage when I'm charging. 

Now from the data I've seen, the cells will be resting at 3.35 or so volts each or about 161V resting with a 48 cell pack, a full 19V below what the Curtis controller can handle. 162V is about what I see NOW with the residual surface charge. So this is all good. Charging voltage spec is 3.6V so that's 173V, below what I charge with now. 

My main thing is maxing my voltage so as to minimize current draw thus maximizing life. Higher voltage does that. Larger cell AH does also. Unfortunately they don't make the 240Ah cells now according to Calb spokesman.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Now from the data I've seen, the cells will be resting at 3.35 or so volts each or about 161V resting with a 48 cell pack, a full 19V below what the Curtis controller can handle. 162V is about what I see NOW with the residual surface charge. So this is all good. Charging voltage spec is 3.6V so that's 173V, below what I charge with now.
> 
> My main thing is maxing my voltage so as to minimize current draw thus maximizing life. Higher voltage does that. Larger cell AH does also. Unfortunately they don't make the 240Ah cells now according to Calb spokesman.


Oh ok, I didn't know the Curtis was ok that high on voltage. I really like the idea of running a controller that will handle a pack voltage much higher than the motor and the ability to program what the motor will see. My pack will be 208 volts and I'll limit the motor to 160. This reduces battery current even further. I am going with 65 of the Calb 180 ah which should give me right about 100 miles range.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

You also have to be ok with the DC-DC converter, which mine is rated at 190. So you have a controller to handle that much voltage? Wow. That should work out good if the motor can handle the voltage. I've heard of my FB1-4001 running on 180V so that's ok too.

I just have to get the charger reconfigured for the proper charge profile and the controller settings changed if need be. I'll be getting with Bob at EV America about the controller.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> You know, I never actually measured the distance of all the 2/0 cables, but I'm going with closer to a little over 20 feet. My intent is to install 4/0 when it gets warmer. Evey little bit helps.


I read your "story" on your evalbum.. All I can say is OMG!!  lol lol


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I read it too and laughed a lot! Can you imagine? And all the money, Poof!


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I took my truck on a speed run and hit 85 with it, later to find out *with a bad connection*. I saw you hit 78 or so. Could your wires have been part of why you couldn't go faster? Wasting 5-6 volts is a lot of wasted juice!
> 
> During the run I ...you likely would have been faster!
> 
> ...


I actually didn't try to go faster, but I'm sure I was at the end. I'd like to see how fast I'm able to go with the 2/0 then switch to 4/0 and see the improvement.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

There you go. Do a run at 100%, recharge then switch your cables and try it again.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How warm are the wires getting? If they aren't that warm there may not be much difference.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

yes, it may not be a case of "how fast" you can go...more like "how fast for how long".... The short interconnects are likely fine at 2/0. The longer runs from one box to another... or from back to front could go to 4/0 if you have the rest of the "parts" to warrant it. Also, motor to controller should be 4/0 in my opinion.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

IF his leads are indeed total 20', from Controller + through all batteries to Controller -, then 1000A is not going to drop but 1.6V, just over 1% of a 144V pack.

Here's why I brought this up. I'm a contractor and never knew how to calculate losses in wiring based on it's size and load, even when I did industrial wiring. I had to learn that to get my license, its' part of designing circuits in buildings. 

Buildings may have long runs of wiring with low currents, ie 500' building with a row of lights drawing 13A. But the 13A must travel 500' to the fixture and 500' back, a 1000' loop! Since wire IS a load, just like a motor it uses power, just like a motor. 

Where motors draw high current in a short wire, a building uses a low current but on a long run it's a high resistance load and will have the same effect if not sized for the length and current expected. 

*Perfect example.* In my home, wired by an idiot, I had a heater plugged in rated 1500 watts and noticed it wasn't producing heat nearly as good as at my other house. Upon checking the voltage at the plug, it would drop to 110V when turned on. The voltage at the panel was 120V. 

*After crunching some numbers, a 8.3% loss of voltage cost me a 29.6% reduction in power to 1056 Watts. * The original wiring loop appeared about 250' total of #14 wire, a loop of 500'. I then had my guys replace the wiring to a few receptacles with new circuits to the panel with #12 and shortened the loop quite a bit. *With the heater running on the new wire, the voltage only dropped to 119V. *

That's why you need to size your pack right IF you're want to get the performance of your pack it can deliver. Otherwise you're wasting power warming your wiring.


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