# Does This Battery Exist Yet?



## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

a123 M1 cells can be charged at least at a 4C rate, however there are LiPo cells (Turnigy Nano) that can charge at 10C with a higher wh/kg compared to the a123 cells. I don't know about the a123 pouch cells though. I wouldn't be surprised to see some LiFePo4 or similar chemistry cells on the market in the next year or two that can charge at 10c rates. The same efforts to increase the discharge rate capabilities tends to improve recharge rates as well.

Good news it would only cost you $75,000 to make a 300 mile pack from those existing LiPo cells! Well not including BMS or chargers though.. And make sure they don't blow up!

Remember for a 300 mile range in a Leaf type of electric car you are looking at what is likely to be a 72+ kWhr pack. If you need to recharge that pack in 20 minutes, you are talking about a MASSIVE energy transfer. 

Lets say you have a 288 volt battery pack and you only have used half of your capacity and you want to recharge to 100%. Feel free to correct me if my math is off, but you need to put in 125amp-hour in 20 minutes. So you are talking about needing to charge at a rate of 180KW! 

It could work if you had a second battery pack that you can use to dump power into it though.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Edit: My math was off here, so I deleted it.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Gentleman, I understand the cost and energy transfer issues involved. But what I want to know does such a battery exist yet or not. I hear the A123 Prismatic 32113 is suppose to be capable of doing it, but I cannot find any specs on it.

So does anyone have a link to the A123 32113 or any other comparable battery that can fit the bill.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

My math above *was* skewed, I attempted to take the number of kW required to recharge in 20 minutes and convert it to how much it would take to do it in 20 minutes, artificially increasing the number.



Sunking said:


> Gentleman, I understand the cost and energy transfer issues involved. But what I want to know does such a battery exist yet or not. I hear the A123 Prismatic 32113 is suppose to be capable of doing it, but I cannot find any specs on it.
> 
> So does anyone have a link to the A123 32113 or any other comparable battery that can fit the bill.


The simple answer is no, there is no one single battery that can take that kind of current to charge.

However, depending on how you design the pack, it may be possible to dump enough energy into the pack to recharge it in 20m and not exceed the hypothetical 10C charge rating for each cell.

The real question is... where are you going to find "wall plug" power that will let you do it? To recharge a 288v pack in 20 minutes, per the number above (which I confirmed with a hypothetical 288v pack capable of 300 miles in a 200Wh/mi vehicle) you'd need to be able to pull 180kW in 20 minutes from the wall. Not factoring efficiency of any of the equipment. That's a LOT of amps. More than what serves the block I live on.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

TX_Dj said:


> The simple answer is no, there is no one single battery that can take that kind of current to charge.


Not sure I can agree with you in theory on that because if a battery can take at least a 6C charge rate, you are in the 10 minute catagory right? 



TX_Dj said:


> However, depending on how you design the pack, it may be possible to dump enough energy into the pack to recharge it in 20m and not exceed the hypothetical 10C charge rating for each cell.


Ok that implies a less than 50% charge efficiency right? Is that where you are going with this? Because at 10 C you are now down in the 6 minute range.



TX_Dj said:


> The real question is... where are you going to find "wall plug" power that will let you do it?


 I fully understand it cannot be done with standard residential electric service. I am thinking along the lines of a commercial charge station like today gas stations along interstates and highways. In such a place would require at least a medium voltage service of 13.2 KV.

In order for BEV to become mainstream and accepted by the public it is going to take a 200 to 400 mile range, and the ability to recharge away from home in the 10 to 20 minute time frame while on long trips. I am thinking 10 to 30 minutes would be acceptable because after driving 300 or so miles, a driver needs a break to relieve oneself, stretch, grab a bite to eat and drink...

To do this I think there is going to have to be a standard set for all auto manufactures to comply with to make it a reality like a standard pack voltage of say 550 volts and charged at say 200 amps for example. 

I am not trying to debate you, I am just thinking out loud what it would take to make EV have mass market appeal, and the technology required to get there.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm pretty sure Altairnano's Nanosafe battery can be charged that fast, and faster. Aerovironment recharged a nanosafe pack in less than 10 minutes.
http://cleantech.com/news/1242/aerovironment-shows-altairnano-10-minu
I think there are other cells that have similar capabilities.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Toshiba Scib does 10C charge http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

There are plenty of cells that can handle that charge rate that have been announced. Only some you can buy now, many more available soon. Those cells I mentioned can be purchased right now, HobbyCity has them.

I don't know that a 200-400 mile range is what is holding back mainstream adoption, I think the lack of a real electric car to buy has been the biggest issue! After that the price is the other issue, if Nissan could sell the Leaf for $18k they would move millions. By the way the Leaf will have the ability to support fast DC charging that will give you 80% in a half hour. This is based on existing industry standards for connectors and fast DC charging. Look up CHAdeMO, level 3 charging or SAE 1772..

There are so many start-ups, academics and big big companies working on next gen batteries it is mind boggling. A recent candidate of note is Planar energy. If their claims prove true you've got your 200-400 mile range right there. Even without the revolutionary claims, things are improving rapidly. If Nissan hits their battery plan the 2014 Leaf will have 150-200 mile range at a lower price than current. Thats just with incremental planned improvements, nothing magical.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

JRP3, thank you as that is exactly what I was looking for


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Wiredsim said:


> I don't know that a 200-400 mile range is what is holding back mainstream adoption, I think the lack of a real electric car to buy has been the biggest issue! After that the price is the other issue


I agree in part with you, but I do believe range will be an issue for the mass public. I have seen this debated on here before, and I am not wanting to start another debate.

On the price issue and vehicles available for sale, I believe will work itself out like any other technology that has come down the pike. Just like when VCR's and video cameras came out they cost $1000 plus at first. By the end of their run less than $100



Wiredsim said:


> Look up CHAdeMO, level 3 charging or SAE 1772..


 Thanks for that as that was one more question I was going to ask. If I remember correctly isn't the Automobile Manufacture Association suppose to release standards for Charging Station? If they do indicates to me, there would have to be standardized pack voltages and charge currents. 



Wiredsim said:


> There are so many start-ups, academics and big big companies working on next gen batteries it is mind boggling.


Yes I am aware of that, even from companies some may not thing about like Exon Mobile.

I am inquiring for 2 reasons.

1. About every year or two I revisit battery technology. My line of work is power generation, distribution, emergency power, standby power, and a large dose of DC power plants used in the Telecom sector. So I have extensive background in lead acid chemistry. However I do a lot of Solar Power design, and now starting to eyeball lithium as it becomes more economical. Plus I tinker with golf cart conversions and again starting to eyeball lithium for that.

2. I will now be teaching part time 3 nights a week applied trigonometry and DC principles to electrical students at a local 2 year college. So I am certain this subject matter will come up and I want to be current.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to get into the range debate too much again but I think 200 mile range is the magic number, with fast charging available, and that is possible right now, it's just too expensive. If you look at the cutaway views of the Leaf you'll see there is plenty of room for at least twice as many cells.
Keep an eye on Ecolocap for your stationary lithium storage batteries as they are targeting that market with their Li-X batteries, and are also moving into the automotive market. They claim fast charge capabilities though have not yet demonstrated it with third party testing.


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

If you want to stay current a couple of good sites for info are MIT's technology review and The future of things. I would post the links but I am posting this from my phone. Pay attention to the DOE grant winners among other things, follow the money! Cutting edge stationary development for grid balancing is focused on liquid metal batteries, pretty interesting stuff.

The reason I mentioned the price issue wasn't to start a debate, though I don't think I conveyed that very well. My larger point is that conventional wisdom is that batteries aren't good enough for wide spread EV's. Thats just not true anymore, its the price that is the issue. Sure if we could have 500 mile range EV's that could charge in 30 seconds that would be fantastic. But you can make an EV right now with 200-300 mile range without a constraining weight penalty and enough specific power output for iCE equivelency. You can also fast charge chemistries that have been on the market for years now (A123, limn, etc , etc) at a rate that would allow 80-90% charges in the time it takes you to eat your Whopper at BK.

The problem is you can't make that car for cheap enough.

So my point is yes, batteries are holding back EV adoption. But its because they cost too much.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Wiredsim said:


> The reason I mentioned the price issue wasn't to start a debate, though I don't think I conveyed that very well. My larger point is that conventional wisdom is that batteries aren't good enough for wide spread EV's. Thats just not true anymore,


 I partly agree with you. That is why I keep circling back on this subject every year or two to see where things are at. IMHO the battery technology is still not quite there yet, at least price wise. But based on the last 2 or 3 years, I am confident it is now close to being a reality for mass markets. The next hurdle will be the infrastructure to build electrical capacity and charge stations. Fortunately the technology already exist for that, just not the will or demand to build it yet. to do that will require getting the government out of the way and let the free market lead the way.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Or continuing the government funding that is happening right now which is helping to drive battery technology, manufacturing plant construction, and building charging stations at an unprecedented rate.  Like it or not the current administrations push for EV's is moving the technology forward faster than ever.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

With a range over 100 miles, the only time anyone would ever need a charging station is likely going to be when they travel on a vacation or another special trip. I've done the math on how many times a year I would travel over 100 miles, I think everyone considering the whole 'put charging stations everywhere' idea should consider how much they will be used. I own two cars now, it isn't very expensive to insure a second car to go the distance when you need to. Most families have 2 or more vehicles, so they are already covered and can take the gasoline car when they need to go on a longer trip. 300 miles with an electric car IMO is overkill but it can be done.

For a 10C charge rate we have 126wh/kg and for a more modest 5C charge rate(12 minutes) which is about as good as it gets for charge ratings. For a 5C charge rate there are cells that reach 146wh/kg. At a 2C charge rate the numbers are hugging 150wh/kg.

These are smaller format cells which are usually where you find the cells with the most capability to weight combination but with increased amperage abilities, you trade off with increased weight. Pick a priority. I'm still trying to figure out how you are going to pack 300 miles in such a short period with a J1772 connector at 240v 70amps, good luck.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how you are going to pack 300 miles in such a short period with a J1772 connector at 240v 70amps, good luck.


You won't, you'd need a different connector and power level. I do agree the whole range issue is a bit overblown but to get the general public to accept EV's I think a 200 mile range and some 10-20 minute charge stations on the highways will be necessary.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> Pick a priority. I'm still trying to figure out how you are going to pack 300 miles in such a short period with a J1772 connector at 240v 70amps, good luck.


OK you just brought up something I was going to ask eventually. Now is good of time as any.

If charge stations and EV become reality, I would think you would have to standardize pack voltages and charge currents for every manufacture to comply with. 

So does that standard exist yet? 

Who says it has to be 240 volts @ 70 amps?

Why not 500 or more volts?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I do agree the whole range issue is a bit overblown but to get the general public to accept EV's I think a 200 mile range and some 10-20 minute charge stations on the highways will be necessary.


OK i really don't want to debate over what mileage or range is acceptable. It doesn't matter what we think, we are dead wrong. What counts is what the public wants and demands as they are always right. The money in their pockets proves they are right.  What the mass public wants is a vehicle that meets their current ICE vehicle range and with all the same bells and whistles they are accustomed to now. They will not accept anything less.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

I can supply you LiFeTech High Energy or High Power LiFePO4 cells.
15minute recharge time to greater than 90% capacity.
Rated at 5C charge rate.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sunking said:


> OK you just brought up something I was going to ask eventually. Now is good of time as any.
> 
> If charge stations and EV become reality, I would think you would have to standardize pack voltages and charge currents for every manufacture to comply with.
> 
> ...


No reason a charge station couldn't have different charging profiles. Even my PFC30 charger can charge from 12- 300+ volts and 1-40 amps.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sunking said:


> What the mass public wants is a vehicle that meets their current ICE vehicle range and with all the same bells and whistles they are accustomed to now. They will not accept anything less.


I think there is a tipping point at which the operational benefits of an EV outweigh the perceived limitations. Every person has a different point, certainly there are probably some who will never buy an EV until it can do 400 miles and recharge in 5 minutes. My sense is that somewhere around 200 mile range with a low enough purchase price is where a large volume of people will jump on board. Yes I could be wrong, but that so rarely happens


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> My sense is that somewhere around 200 mile range with a low enough purchase price is where a large volume of people will jump on board. Yes I could be wrong, but that so rarely happens


You maybe right, who knows. I seriously think if a manufacture could put an EV on the market with say 250 mile range with all the bells and whistles, home charging in 8 hours, fast charge plug in 15 to 20 minutes, for $20K you would sell a lot of them.

Another thought I had is for the vehicle to have a on board 120 VAC charger with extension cord for those who travel and stay in a motel with down and out parking to run into their rooms to charge over night. But that might be considered theft? Although I do not see how it is that much difference when I travel up north I see a lot of motels/hotels have outlets for block heaters.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think all current production vehicles can charge from 120V as well as higher voltage. My conversion can. You'll have your standard on board charger ports, then a separate straight DC plug for fast charging.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

So back the the standard for charging stations. How can one make a station that can adapt to any voltage or current? I am missing something?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As long as the charge station voltage is higher than the pack voltage current will flow, you just need an interface from the pack to tell the charger what voltage to stop at. There will probably be a few standard pack voltages that evolve, so when you hook up the charger the pack will signal that it's a "Charge2" profile or something which defines finishing voltage and charging amperage. Quick chargers won't need to taper off for finishing charging since by definition that's not quick, a quick charger will probably give you 80-90% full charge.


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## Tsunami2005 (Apr 2, 2008)

A123 battery porn goes on:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20591
10C Charging Rate!!!
Private Nuclear power station not included


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting, I've not seen production A123 cells that use studs, much easier connections than having to weld them. I wonder if they are the real deal?


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