# new cell type introduced by Winston Thundersky



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

roger said:


> Hello,
> did someone heard about more details about new cell types introduced by Winston/Thundersky? It seems to be a new chemistry and a great advantage in weight and size. They call them LSP type and production will start soon. Anybody who knows more informations as printed at preliminary datasheets?
> 
> 
> Roger


Nope. I just heard Jack Rickard talking about them on his EVTV show and I looked at them a few times on the TS site. They are Lithium Sulfur. Nominal voltage is lower. Cycle life is a bit lower. Operating temp is wider. Energy density is hugely better. Strange that they aren't making them in smaller sizes though. I think there is a message in that......


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## roger (Jan 24, 2010)

I hope they will make smaller sizes, too. But the most interesting question for me is the safety. If they can catch fire or explode..... I don´t know. 
Current LiFePo cells were crash tested by German´s technical control association last year. They are known by them to get the car´s certification. But this energy density....... I´m looking forward to try them if the pricing is moderate. No risk - no fun.

Roger


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

am I calculating their energy density right? It looks like they're claiming 260 w/h per Kg.


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## roger (Jan 24, 2010)

there aren´t any charge/discharge curves at the datasheets and we don´t know the working voltage at main of discharge curve, for known LYP type it´s from 3,4 to 3,1 Volts at 80% DOD. Here we have no information. All I can see that we must use 2 cells to get the same voltage as with LYP type. Did you see the other types, too? It seems they make 2, 4 or much more cells of them in one body. Hope they make a smaller type, say 200 AHA, with reduced height.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Nope. I just heard Jack Rickard talking about them on his EVTV show and I looked at them a few times on the TS site. They are Lithium Sulfur. Nominal voltage is lower. Cycle life is a bit lower. Operating temp is wider. Energy density is hugely better. Strange that they aren't making them in smaller sizes though. I think there is a message in that......


Based on how Winston/TS creates their other data sheets I would guess at a nominal voltage of 1.4 - 1.5v and compared to the LYP data sheet the new batteries do NOT have a wider temp range. It's -45 to 85 for LYP and -35 to 85 for the new LSP.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Whithout the nominal voltage and a curve it's a little "foggy" 

But the Wh/kg looks realy good, if the discharge is as good as the "older" cells:

TS LSP:
1,4V x 600Ah / 5,3kg = 158,49Wh/kg
1,5V x 600Ah / 5,3kg = 169,81Wh/kg
2,0V x 600Ah / 5,3kg = 226,42Wh/kg

TS LYP:
3,2V x 160Ah / 5,6kg = 91,43Wh/kg
3,3V x 160Ah / 5,6kg = 94,29Wh/kg
3,4V x 160Ah / 5,6kg = 97,14Wh/kg

CALB SE 180:
3,3V x 180Ah / 5,6kg = 106,07Wh/kg
3,4V x 180Ah / 5,6kg = 109,29Wh/kg

I took different voltages because of different meanings about the nominal voltages. So everyone could get his own advantages.

EDIT: got the wrong kg at CALB and corrected it now.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

It's cool that the 600Ah cells can max out a Zilla 2k with full current continuously... for 20 minutes.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

So we are talking roughly double the energy density of current prismatic cells?

Edit: looks like it might be more like 50% more if we are to assume 1.5 volts.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Will someone check my numbers on this?

Based on their posted specs a pack of 140 of these new batteries would contain approximately 126KWh of energy at a maximum voltage of 322 (using 2.3 as max voltage from the .PDF - I chose the number of cells to match the capability of the Solitron max voltage, with a bit of headroom). Such a pack would weigh around 1600 lbs, so would be suitable only for a full size pickup truck. Match that pack with a Solitron, an 11"HV motor, and an EVGlide powertrain (leaving the full motor bay for some of the cells, mounting the rest under the bed) and such a truck would have how much range? If I use the conservative value of 600Wh/Mile from this post that's like 210 miles of range! Even limiting to 70%DOD that's about 150mile range. Well, with my driving style in Atlanta at 70mph, call it 80 miles of range - still enough to replace my car in almost every circumstance.

Anyone know how much these cells cost?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The CALB 180Ah cells have a mass of 5.6kg, not 5.8kg.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Based on their posted specs a pack of 140 of these new batteries would contain approximately 126KWh of energy at a maximum voltage of 322 (using 2.3 as max voltage from the .PDF


You seem to be using a nominal voltage of 1.5 VPC in your calculations.

Is this a guess, or do you know it to be about right for the LiS chemistry? I came up with a figure of 1.9 V nominal, but I don't remember where that come from. I'm pretty sure it's not authoritative.

I believe that these cells are not ready for sale at present, e.g. see this post:

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2411&PID=30749#30749


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Will someone check my numbers on this?
> 
> Based on their posted specs a pack of 140 of these new batteries would contain approximately 126KWh of energy at a maximum voltage of 322 (using 2.3 as max voltage from the .PDF


Don't use max voltage to calculate KWH since you'll never see max voltage during use. You need nominal voltage which might be 1.8 or something, don't really know how these cells behave.*

*Edit, didn't see Coulomb's post


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> You seem to be using a nominal voltage of 1.5 VPC in your calculations.
> 
> Is this a guess, or do you know it to be about right for the LiS chemistry? I came up with a figure of 1.9 V nominal, but I don't remember where that come from. I'm pretty sure it's not authoritative.
> 
> ...


I used 2.3v for calculating max voltage; 1.5v for calculating KWhrs per another poster in this thread as a "conservative" voltage" for capacity calculation. I don't "know" any of this, was just trying to use conservative numbers and estimate range, while keeping the number of cells low enough that max voltage would not exceed the Solitron. If it really is 1.9v then max range would be about 265 miles (again assuming the 600Kwh/mile figure from another post). Either of those figures is excellent news for performance, what is unknown is price - which sounds like it's a ways off if they haven't even started selling them yet.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

It looks like BASF is looking at lithium sulfur as well, but they say production wouldn't start till 2020 at the earliest:

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/n...lectric-cars-closer-to-market/1007340.article


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> It looks like BASF is looking at lithium sulfur as well, but they say production wouldn't start till 2020 at the earliest:
> 
> http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/n...lectric-cars-closer-to-market/1007340.article


Yeah, just saw that. Does that mean that the Thundersky are vapor-ware?


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Yeah, just saw that. Does that mean that the Thundersky are vapor-ware?


Probably not but that's why they aren't making them in size for automobiles. They're probably for UPS and other utility functions which won't require more than 100-500 cycles.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Yeah, a 300ah cell @1/2 TS voltage, giving us an effective 150ah comparing to the current TS cell voltage would be sweet. And at about 5.83~6.00 pounds 2.65kilo. Progress is coming, just like progress from a 500k 5.4" floppy to a 10 gig the size of your fingernail.

francis


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unfortunately batteries won't scale the same way electronics do.


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## roger (Jan 24, 2010)

I just saw an update of Winston´s Datasheet. Now they show a few graphs about cell behaviour.
One vendor told about starting sale now. 

http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/20112239492.pdf

Roger


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

The graphs look suspiciously close to the LFP graphs, just with a different scale for the numbers. Does anyone else see what I'm seeing?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Is it just me or are those graphs showing the nominal voltage around 2.2v?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes the chemistry has a much lower voltage. High constant C rates though. Wonder why they are calling them "rare earth" batteries? They don't mention the yttrium that they use in their LiFeYPO4 cells.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> The graphs look suspiciously close to the LFP graphs, just with a different scale for the numbers. Does anyone else see what I'm seeing?


What're they supposed to look like?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> High constant C rates though.


Huh? I see 3C for charge and discharge. 20C for "impulse" discharge (is that 10 ms now? ) but that's hardly a "constant" rate. It's a lot of amps, because they are large cells, starting at 600 Ah, but again, that's not "rate", at least as I see it.

These cells have good potential, especially if they can be manufactured cheaply, but I don't see C rate as their strength.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Compare the standard charge/discharge rate of the new cell, 1C, to the old cell, 0.5C
http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2010723131240.pdf


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Compare the standard charge/discharge rate of the new cell, 1C, to the old cell, 0.5C
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2010723131240.pdf


Ah, the *standard* rate, whatever that is supposed to mean. I guess it's the rate at which life is measured, and where the cell is supposed to have maximum life. I believe it used to be 0.3C for LiFeYPO4.

If so, I agree with you; that's a quite useful improvement, for EV applications.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I confuse constant and standard, vague differences, but like you I assume standard gives you longest cycle life.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

icec0o1 said:


> What're they supposed to look like?


At least somewhat different, you can put these charts directly on top of the LiFePO4 ones and the shape is not different at all. For a different chemistry you would expect a different profile in at least one detail out of 4 charts other than the scaling.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think they just changed the values on the old graphs, even the small fluctuations are exactly the same.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

They don't seem to have an upper knee. That's a bit challanging.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Until we can get a real discharge chart, it will be hard to know the nominal voltage and do a Wh capacity along with energy and power density calculations based on the Ah rating. I'm hoping they come out with a size that is a little easier to swallow, giant Ah capacity cells means lower voltage for the same total desired capacity and to get the most performance we need something around the mid 100's for voltage. IMHO the minimum for a highway vehicle would be something around 120 volts in a system like the AC drive Curtis 1238-7501 and HPEVS AC50 combo or for series DC like a Warp 9 something around the 150 volt mark, ideally a pack around 170 volts. ...but even 120 volts at 600Ah is 72kwh which is a monster pack that will be very heavy and a challenge to get into a car and at a lower voltage that will burn up a motor with whatever larger and heavier vehicle that will hold so much capacity.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds as if we have some time to wait, I think Winston told Jack Rickard these won't be available for a year or so. Considering Winston's interests in RV's and buses they may not even offer these in smaller sizes for a while, if ever.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Considering that Winston is with Balqon, which is in the market of large commercial truck applications, I'd imagine that is their goal, along with RV's, busses, etc large vehicles as you and Jack Rickard mentioned. Cars are out of the market until/if the cells get smaller but it seems the LiFePO4/LiFeYPO4 works well and we'll see improvements over time with it.

It seems that, depending on the properties of these cells that they probably would make a better match than what Jack is going to put in the Escalade but until we get those number its hard to say. I think the 70 400Ah Winston LiFeYPO4 cells provides enough bragging rights. If he found a nice flat long road without any stops and had plenty of pressure in the tires that thing would go quite a long distance if driven at a meager pace underneath aerodynamic disaster speeds. 600Ah and I think he would just use an appropriate number fewer cells, but maybe not, who knows.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

It looks like the germans are ahead of JR:

http://litrade.de/shop/Akkus-Zubehoer/LiSPo-LSP-Winston-Thunder-Sky/


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Jan said:


> It looks like the Germans are ahead of JR:
> 
> http://litrade.de/shop/Akkus-Zubehoer/LiSPo-LSP-Winston-Thunder-Sky/


Wow, a price. A rather high price. Also this:

*!**!! Nur auf Bestellung !!!*
It seems to translate to:

*!To order only!

*[ Edit: Then again, it also says "available now" and "delivery: 6 to 8 weeks". ]

P.S. the thumbs down in the subject is not of my doing. The red exclamation marks seem to have confused the Wiki software.


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## roger (Jan 24, 2010)

As he wrote in Germans forum this dealer is going to find a customer who tries out the cells.......
http://forum.mysnip.de/read.php?567,318974,page=1
The pricing should comparable to the established LYP cells regarding the storagable energy, not the AH size. Cell Voltage is lower. So the pricing should be lower for one AH.
Let JR test them for us. I´m shure he gets these cells immediately after finished development by Winston.

Roger


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## Franky.EV (Feb 27, 2010)

The voltage of these batteries are low, but I've noticed they have 4 terminals.

Does this means you can double the voltage per battery with correct wiring ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, it's probably because single terminals wouldn't be able to handle the current from the larger cells so they doubled them.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Can't find them anymore on the litrade site...


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

because they were never available there... it was probably a CC/database aquiring scam


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## jumpjack (Sep 9, 2012)

I found this info on another forum, any confirmation or news?



> The newest data sheet for the WB-LSP600AHA cell has been changed significantly, as follows:
> 
> Old data sheet
> Weight : 5.3kg
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Has anyone ever been able to actually buy one of these cells?


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