# BMW bi-moto EV project



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

After months of research I finally started converting my car. The ICE components are all out of the car. 

Old photos with the ICE inside:










Science I've started the project i didn't made new photos. I will shoot some this week and post them here.

My goal is to make a very, very powerful EV. I will use the two UQM systems. One in the front and one in the back of the car. The motors will be connected directly to the diffs.

EDIT: UQM systems haven't been used in this car.




(the components shown in this picture are symbolic)

Kokam batterys will be used for the battery pack(s). I'm not sure if I should make two battery packs for each system or one big pack. I will order the batterys this week. They will be delivered in three months.

Suggestions and questions are welcome


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Awesome ride! I've always wanted to build up a nice, older BMW.

What size battery pack are you going with? Any info yet on charger, controllers, etc.?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Greenflight said:


> Awesome ride! I've always wanted to build up a nice, older BMW.
> 
> What size battery pack are you going with? Any info yet on charger, controllers, etc.?


I



I used the specifications claimed by Kokham but I have to leave some space between the cells because they expand when getting hot


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> But I'm not sure what would be the optimal input voltage for the controller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Cro,

Use a nominal battery voltage about 350. That way you have headroom for regeneration and bottom room for sag under heavy load.

What are you? Secretary of the Treasury over there? 

Regards,

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks for the reply 



major said:


> *What are you? Secretary of the Treasury over there? *
> 
> Regards,
> 
> major


What should that mean? 

You think that people in Croatia can't have the money for such a project?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> What should that mean?
> 
> You think that people in Croatia can't have the money for such a project?


 
No insult intended to you or Croatia. Just that your component selection is quite pricey. I'd ask the same of anyone, no matter where they live. For the cost of the motors and battery, you could buy a Tesla Roadster. You have a very ambitious project.

Good luck with it.

major (just that stupid American)


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Nah, he's just referencing the fact that the Secretary of Treasury here in the US probably couldn't afford it. 

I second the 350v recommendation. Tough call on single vs. dual packs... For some reason my gut is saying dual packs, but my logical brain is saying single...  Let us know what you come up with!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow, awesome project!

Dual battery packs might be easier to keep cool (from the perspective you'd have more surface area per kg of battery).


Greenflight said:


> Nah, he's just referencing the fact that the Secretary of Treasury here in the US probably couldn't afford it.
> 
> I second the 350v recommendation. Tough call on single vs. dual packs... For some reason my gut is saying dual packs, but my logical brain is saying single...  Let us know what you come up with!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> No insult intended to you or Croatia. Just that your component selection is quite pricey. I'd ask the same of anyone, no matter where they live. For the cost of the motors and battery, you could buy a Tesla Roadster. You have a very ambitious project.
> 
> Good luck with it.
> 
> major (just that stupid American)


Yes, it is pretty expensive but it should be one of the fastest EVs on the planet. May be even the fastest car with an AC motor as far as I know (?) Isn't that worth the money? What else could I buy for this money?! (I don't like the Tesla)



Btw. I don't belive that American are stupid people. 



Greenflight said:


> Nah, he's just referencing the fact that the Secretary of Treasury here in the US probably couldn't afford it.
> 
> I second the 350v recommendation. Tough call on single vs. dual packs... For some reason my gut is saying dual packs, but my logical brain is saying single...  Let us know what you come up with!


I will update this thread every time I have made an significant progress


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

dual battery packs is the only logical way to do for the fact that if a controller decides to go on you and short big time the chance of taking out the battery is real at least this way you may still get home on one battery and one motor, are you planning lithiums? are they of the flammable type? Lipos can be touchy but I am sure your aware of all that stuff. great project please do post often and lots of pictures please.

Brian


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rctous said:


> dual battery packs is the only logical way to do for the fact that if a controller decides to go on you and short big time the chance of taking out the battery is real at least this way you may still get home on one battery and one motor, are you planning lithiums? are they of the flammable type? Lipos can be touchy but I am sure your aware of all that stuff. great project please do post often and lots of pictures please.
> 
> Brian


I will use high power Li-polymer batterys. I think that they are pretty safe. 

But just in case...:


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I know that you folks like photos, so... Enjoy 


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Really nice pics, it's pretty clear that you're skilled with your hands and know what you are doing.

That BMW was already an All Wheel Drive?

Dalardan


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Dalardan said:


> Really nice pics, it's pretty clear that you're skilled with your hands and know what you are doing.
> 
> That BMW was already an All Wheel Drive?
> 
> Dalardan


Nop. That turned out to be a big problem.

I knew that there was a 325Xi model that has been equipped with AWD. I thought that i can use the parts of this model but now I know that they are completely different cars.  Now I have to buy such an Xi model too  No problem...


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Considering what seems to be your budget, it's not that of a problem .

With 2 mouse clicks I've found over 100 of them starting at 11k$CAN... You should find it easily.

Good luck!

Dalardan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What made you choose UQM over ACP for the motors? What sort of price did they give you?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What made you choose UQM over ACP for the motors? What sort of price did they give you?


I think that ACP doesn't sell the 150kW systen to the "general public". Besides that, the UQM has a lot more torque, twice the constant power and liquid cooling. But the red line of the UQM is at 5.000 RPM 

I don't have any price yet

Btw. Any experience with UQM?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've never seen a UQM system used in an EV other than Phoenix and some prototypes. Phoenix Motorcars was using them in their initial prototypes but for some reason switched to another motor, claiming lower weight and higher power. Phoenix seems to be in trouble though, so who knows.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I've never seen a UQM system used in an EV other than Phoenix and some prototypes. Phoenix Motorcars was using them in their initial prototypes but for some reason switched to another motor, claiming lower weight and higher power. Phoenix seems to be in trouble though, so who knows.


 Is there any similar (or stronger with the same weight) motor to this Siemens one?

*Motor*
• Type: Siemens 1PV5135WS28 3 Phase Induction Motor 
• Number of Poles: 4 
• Continuous Power: 67 kW – 91 hp 
• Maximum Power: 160 kW – 210 hp <30 seconds 
• Maximum Torque: 317 ft-lbs (430 Nm) 
• RPM Range: 0 – 10.000 RPM 
• Cooling: Water/Glycol 
• Weight: 200lbs (90 kg)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> So I buy two of the motors and controllers, spend 40.000$


Hi Cro,

Is that $40K each? That would be closer to the quote they gave me last year, for the 150 kW drive.



> and than see that the claimed specs are fake


What do you mean? UQM has an excellent reputation. Please elaborate.

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Cro,
> 
> Is that $40K each? That would be closer to the quote they gave me last year, for the 150 kW drive.
> 
> ...


That was just a wild guess. I haven't got any info yet. So one motor-controller package is about 40 grand?



major said:


> What do you mean? UQM has an excellent reputation. Please elaborate.
> 
> major





JRP3 said:


> I've never seen a UQM system used in an EV other than Phoenix and some prototypes. *Phoenix Motorcars was using them in their initial prototypes but for some reason switched to another motor, claiming lower weight and higher power.* Phoenix seems to be in trouble though, so who knows.


I think that I misunderstood something...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> That was just a wild guess. I haven't got any info yet. So one motor-controller package is about 40 grand?


Yeah, pretty close.



> I think that I misunderstood something...


I suspect UQM products do what they claim. They wouldn't have been around as long as they have otherwise. On the otherhand, where is Phoenix Motorcars?

Regards,

major


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

I can't help but get a sinking feeling reading about that motors being considered 

So much money and I'm trying to fathom the practical nature of spending so much on motors (20 times what an incredible DC motor would cost)


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> yeah, pretty close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


. .


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> I can't help but get a sinking feeling reading about that motors being considered
> 
> So much money and I'm trying to fathom the practical nature of spending so much on motors (20 times what an incredible DC motor would cost)


There are no controllers (Zillas) available for such high power and DC seem to be pretty outdated compared to AC


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> There are no controllers (Zillas) available for such high power and DC seem to be pretty outdated compared to AC


It might be outdated, but $40,000 on a single motor controller isn't what I'd call a smart purchase (especially since there's almost no way the value of the motor will stay even 1/4th that high for more than 1-2 years).

Also I have a feeling that if you used 2x AC-81s on this page
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php

You would achieve a level of performance that is the most useable at all.

I'm not even sure your tires could have traction going all out on two 150kw AC motors, pressing something like 400HP to the floor continuous? 

Even those AC-81's is a monstrous amount of torque from a start line (or at any RPM really), even if that BMW weighs 3000lbs or something extremely high, I don't know about stuffing 400 electric horsepower into it.

If you're planning to even periodically dump 120-130kw into anything via lithium, you're crazy (not sure if crazy in a good way either). Lead acid has commmpletely different set of rules to play by. That lithium pack, if you try to pull 1000a through it, it will give it to you, and it will really be 200HP at every RPM (not peak like a corvette has).

Not to mention 2x AC-81s could handle 120kw.... which would easily throw your ass back in your seat and spin tires too much off a start line.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> I'm not even sure your tires could have traction going all out on two 150kw AC motors, pressing something like 400HP to the floor continuous?
> 
> Even those AC-81's is a monstrous amount of torque from a start line (or at any RPM really), even if that BMW weighs 3000lbs or something extremely high, I don't know about stuffing 400 electric horsepower into it.


Don't worry about the traction. 4 wide semi-slick tires can handle that easily. 



Technologic said:


> It might be outdated, but $40,000 on a single motor controller isn't what I'd call a smart purchase (*especially since there's almost no way the value of the motor will stay even 1/4th that high for more than 1-2 years*).


I don't want to wait that long for a new cheaper systems. Who knows if they will come on the market at all?!



Technologic said:


> If you're planning to even periodically dump 120-130kw into anything via lithium, you're crazy (not sure if crazy in a good way either). Lead acid has commmpletely different set of rules to play by. That lithium pack, if you try to pull 1000a through it, it will give it to you, and it will really be 200HP at every RPM (not peak like a corvette has).


Crazy? Me? Yes, I'm pretty sure I am


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Don't worry about the traction. 4 wide semi-slick tires can handle that easily. My BMW M6 has 507 hp at the rear wheels and there is no problem at all! Even with the ESP turned off.


507hp in a BWM and 507 HP out of an AC motor are very very very different.

an AC motor won't have that horsepower for just 1 single RPM point... it will have that horsepower for large sections of its RPM range... ie. if your BMW had max horsepower at say 5500RPM... your electric motor will have max horsepower at almost the same point it has max TORQUE.

What this means is from about, 1000RPM-3000RPM you can literally dump out 400-500raw Horsepower and something like 500-800ftlbs of torque all the time... 

If you are unaware what a sustained 500-800ftlbs of torque (at 200-300HP continuous) would do for a 3000lb car (a very heavy car)... you should check into it.

Compare a dyno of your standard corvette to that low end graph of that AC motor I linked you, you'll find that a corvette actually never hits the same torque/HP curves (at the same time and especially for the same length of RPM range) as those two AC-81s would.

I'm not trying to dissuaded you, just hoping to save you headaches, time, and definitely money. a corvette has something like a 3.7 0-60mph time, so I just wanted to be clear what you're shooting for with that larger system (a 0-60 time of 2 seconds?)


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> I'm not trying to dissuaded you, just hoping to save you headaches, time, and definitely money. a corvette has something like a 3.7 0-60mph time, so I just wanted to be clear what you're shooting for with that larger system (a 0-60 time of 2 seconds?)


I know that you are trying to help and I appreciate that. Thanks a lot for the help to all of you! 

That power that we are talking about is not my problem, it's my GOAL!  I want an electric car that is faster than 99,9% ICE cars. I think that it is possible and that's why I'm doing it. 



Technologic said:


> 507hp in a BWM and 507 HP out of an AC motor are very very very different.
> 
> an AC motor won't have that horsepower for just 1 single RPM point... it will have that horsepower for large sections of its RPM range... ie. if your BMW had max horsepower at say 5500RPM... your electric motor will have max horsepower at almost the same point it has max TORQUE.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are trying to say but I think that 400hp and 1500Nm on 4 wheels are NO PROBLEM! No matter if it is peak or continuous. 


Don't worry


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know the details and I don't think there were any problems with the UQM motors, just that Phoenix claimed to have found a lighter, more powerful, cheaper motor, but they never announced what that motor was.
The UQM motors are heavier than the ACP motors, and if UQM is charging close to $40K they are a lot more expensive, so maybe Phoenix is going with an ACP system. However Phoenix hasn't shown anything in a while and may be in trouble as a business. 
I don't know if UQM will sell to individuals either, so you might try contacting ACP as well. The bigger RPM range my be a benefit, and the peak KW output is the same.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

There's also the option of finding a $4000 or so dollar 100kw AC 3 phase motor (up to 315kw) from china

http://www.alibaba.com/sellinglead-gs/210039725/asynchronous_motor_three_phase_motor_AC.html

If he has access to controllers that'd be the best option (though that supplier probably makes controllers as well)

this $80k for motors thing just bugs me, but if you're ok with it


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> There's also the option of finding a $4000 or so dollar 100kw AC 3 phase motor (up to 315kw) from china
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/sellinglead-gs/210039725/asynchronous_motor_three_phase_motor_AC.html
> 
> ...


I didn't say that I'm OK with that enormous price but it seem to me like the only option for my goals. I took a look on the link you posted. They seem to have good products. I will take a closer look and contact them if they have something that could help me in achieving my goals.

Of course I would like to spend less money but I think that the development of a new controller is far more expensive than an UQM system.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Of course I would like to spend less money but I think that the development of a new controller is far more expensive than an UQM system.


I doubt it... not to mention you could use whatever controller you create and manufacture it to make your money back (believe me... a nice $2000 or so 3 phase AC controller would sell like hot cakes)

I doubt it would even cost more though... that's the scary part. R&D is cheaper than their list price probably.

that's an entire YEAR'S salary for most good electrical engineers in the US... it wouldn't take but 3-4 months to make a 3 phase AC controller (less if the EE is any good).

Again though, my guess is chinese suppliers have some kind of options for you possible as far as controllers.

Offer some master's student in the US $10,000 as a side project? I know a number of people that'd take up such an offer while in school...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> I doubt it... not to mention you could use whatever controller you create and manufacture it to make your money back (believe me... a nice $2000 or so 3 phase AC controller would sell like hot cakes)
> 
> I doubt it would even cost more though... that's the scary part. R&D is cheaper than their list price probably.
> 
> ...


Yes, that would be perfect! I also thought about this option but I was thinking: If it's that easy to make an controller, why are non on the market?! 

I think that is some demand out there fore that kind of product. 

I will talk to my EE about the options and than see what I will do. I would be very happy with a self made controller.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I just received an mail of UQM

The price is $34.700 . Ok, we knew that, but:

"[FONT=&quot]Please note that unfortunately we don’t supply to consumers, we work exclusively with OEM’s."


[/FONT]


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I just received an mail of UQM
> 
> The price is $34.700 . Ok, we knew that, but:
> 
> ...


Hey Cro,

Get yourself a business name and tell them you're developing the prototype vehicle intended to launch an exclusive product line. Be sure to inquire about quantity pricing, say like 200 units for next year.

Regards,

major


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I will talk to my EE about the options and than see what I will do. I would be very happy with a self made controller.


Feel free to connect via advertisements to come college campuses as well.

Duke University (my old undergraduate school) had the 3rd or 4th top engineering school in the country. You can place a cheap ad in the paper asking for "experienced masters or PHD students looking to make a large one time sum for an large AC motor controller" I bet you get more responses than you'd imagine...

Genius is desperate for beer money, I've seen it.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Technologic said:


> Feel free to connect via advertisements to come college campuses as well.
> 
> Duke University (my old undergraduate school) had the 3rd or 4th top engineering school in the country. You can place a cheap ad in the paper asking for "experienced masters or PHD students looking to make a large one time sum for an large AC motor controller" I bet you get more responses than you'd imagine...
> 
> Genius is desperate for beer money, I've seen it.


It's pretty hard to manage something like that if you are 3000 miles away  I will try to find a good team here in Croatia, if this don't work I will search in Germany. But first I have to find a suitable motor. 

OK guys, now I'm totally into this and it's your fault


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Yes, that would be perfect! I also thought about this option but I was thinking: If it's that easy to make an controller, why are non on the market?!
> .


It's not easy per se, most EE's from middle ranked colleges might have trouble if they only have a bachelors. 

But PWM and switching etc really isn't that complicated from a physical perspective, namely what complicates it is the programming... this is why I suggest colleges.

Tons of people know how to plop down those kinds of things at a lot of top universities, and as a student they really undervalue their time (probably because nobody takes them seriously yet )


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Technologic said:


> There's also the option of finding a $4000 or so dollar 100kw AC 3 phase motor (up to 315kw) from china
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/sellinglead-gs/210039725/asynchronous_motor_three_phase_motor_AC.html
> 
> If he has access to controllers that'd be the best option (though that supplier probably makes controllers as well)


Industrial motors are not appropriate for traction motor applications, they are way too heavy to be practical and are built to run nonstop for days on end, something no EV will ever do.
If UQM doesn't want to play you might as well try ACP and see what they have to say. I agree that setting up a business sounding address might be a good idea.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Industrial motors are not appropriate for traction motor applications, they are way too heavy to be practical and are built to run nonstop for days on end, something no EV will ever do.
> If UQM doesn't want to play you might as well try ACP and see what they have to say. I agree that setting up a business sounding address might be a good idea.


That manufacturer will wind him something custom... and so will many other AC motor manufacturers.

for $80,000 I'd be trying to figure out other options.

UQM's price is borderline extortion... if they really aren't making 500-600% profit at that price I'd be very surprised (and they also likely have a terrible business model if it really needs to be priced there).

You're talking about employing an EE with 5-10 yrs of experience for that price... for a year... 

Something is wrong here. large format industrial motors don't differ THAT widely with traction motors.


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## mmark666 (Feb 21, 2009)

CroDriver,

what about putting 4 Ford-Siemens motors (see http://zuglet.com/ev/fordsiemens/fordsiemens.html) in your BMW instead of 2 stronger Siemens motors? The Ford-Siemens motors are rated with 90 HP peak each, so it should be pretty similar. Weight would probably be somewhat higher, but you could save the differentials (OK, you still need some kind of reduction gear box...)

Just my 2 cents,

Mark


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

mmark666 said:


> CroDriver,
> 
> what about putting 4 Ford-Siemens motors (see http://zuglet.com/ev/fordsiemens/fordsiemens.html) in your BMW instead of 2 stronger Siemens motors? The Ford-Siemens motors are rated with 90 HP peak each, so it should be pretty similar. Weight would probably be somewhat higher, but you could save the differentials (OK, you still need some kind of reduction gear box...)
> 
> ...


I was thinking about that option. I think that I wouldn't have enough space and the whole thing would get pretty heavy too. If installing twice as many parts, the chance that something will broke is double. It would be a great thing for regen (independent on every wheel) and AWD.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I was thinking about that option. I think that I wouldn't have enough space and the whole thing would get pretty heavy too. If installing twice as many parts, the chance that something will broke is double. It would be a great thing for regen (independent on every wheel) and AWD.


great project , i am hoping to do 124 mb hammer wagon , (add 4 wheel later) I just picked up a ford ranger factory ev with dead battery pack get that going first . the ford uses a independent rear end and transversely mounted motor, for efficiency reasons I think . the hottest motor / controller is going to be a switched reluctance because very little rotor heating , greater low end torque and the controller can be built with one igbt and diode per leg . letourneau international uses s.r. motors .google yielded one that is 150 lbs. 750 hp @ 20,000 . the bad is figuring the programing .


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## ElectricSlide (Jan 21, 2009)

Cro - Hope this is a success. 



aeroscott said:


> letourneau international uses s.r. motors


http://www.letourneau-inc.com/dsg/motors/sr.htm



aeroscott said:


> .google yielded one that is *150 lbs. 750 hp @ 20,000*


 Mistake? I think so; but I want to be wrong in this case. 

You can't post something like this without a link. 

This is the closest I've found to date - 500hp 147lbs AC "Symetron" by Raser :

http://www.rasertech.com/media/pdfs/Raser_Edge_Slick_05-web.pdf
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...web.pdf+500hp+raser&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

I suppose getting another 250 hp out of more advanced technology is not out of the question; but since this is the first time I've ever heard of SR I'd be pleasantly surprised.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

ElectricSlide said:


> Cro - Hope this is a success.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




500 hp out of 147lbs 

Where can I sign?  Ten of those, please.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't get too excited about the LeTourneau motor, the 400 HP SR Traction motor weighs 4000lbs 
http://www.letourneau-inc.com/dsg/motors/sr_traction.htm
As for Raser, they seem to be more interested in licensing their technology than building and selling motors, at least last I knew. Same thing with Chorus Meschon motors.


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## joethemechanic (Feb 26, 2009)

What is this mention of a Siemens 3 phase 4 pole induction motor that has a speed range of 0 to 10,000 rpm? 

You would need like 350 Hz to run a 4 pole motor up that fast. How much iron is in a motor like that? I would think you would be using a huge part of the amperage capacity of your controller just handling the power factor from having to establish, collapse, and reverse the magnetism that fast.

If there was any decent amount of iron in the motor the voltage sign and the current sign would be way out of sync.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

joethemechanic said:


> What is this mention of a Siemens 3 phase 4 pole induction motor that has a speed range of 0 to 10,000 rpm?
> 
> You would need like 350 Hz to run a 4 pole motor up that fast. How much iron is in a motor like that? I would think you would be using a huge part of the amperage capacity of your controller just handling the power factor from having to establish, collapse, and reverse the magnetism that fast.
> 
> If there was any decent amount of iron in the motor the voltage sign and the current sign would be way out of sync.


Hi joe,

These high frequency AC motors work quite well. I have experience with induction motor drives, 4 pole up to 400 Hz, 12,000 RPM. These are inverter driven. And, actually, the magnetizing component of the motor current is pretty much the same as when driven from the 60 Hz mains, just at higher frequency. There is no issue with power factor. When using flux vector drives, like I do, the voltage and current and angle are precisely controlled. The power factor seems to mimic that of the 60 Hz case, sucky at no load and real light loads, but becoming reasonable at useful load. EVs are not the only place where they are used. Spindle drives do this all the time. The iron to copper ratio is pretty much the same as 60 Hz motors. The windings may have to change in design to accommodate the higher frequency, keeping the volts to hertz ratio in line. Similar to transformers. 

Regards,

major


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## joethemechanic (Feb 26, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmm, I guess me and my education are getting a little "long in the teeth"


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## ElectricSlide (Jan 21, 2009)

Did somebody mention Siemens and Dual Motors?

http://jalopnik.com/tag/ruf-eruf-greenster/?id=5163747



> RUF has partnered with German-based Tier One supplier, Siemens, to create the world's first electrically driven 997 Porsche 911 aptly named the RUF eRuf 'Greenster.' They've managed to create a complete electric replacement to the standard 911's 3.8 liter boxer-6 engine and it's packed with butt-loads of torque, 700 lb-ft of it to be exact. The 362 horsepower doesn't hurt either, but that's not what you'll feel when you mash your foot on the throttle.
> 
> 
> The massive torque numbers are great, but what really sets this electric RUF apart from the crowd is the Siemens eDrive 'double-motor' concept that can charge on a 400-volt power source and using the same power outlet, the system can feed energy back into the system, effectively creating an overpriced, badass-looking generator.


http://www.automobilesreview.com/auto-news/ruf-greenster/10677/


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

ElectricSlide said:


> Did somebody mention Siemens and Dual Motors?
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/tag/ruf-eruf-greenster/?id=5163747
> 
> ...


Cool car 


Seems like someone was quicker than me...


----------



## ElectricSlide (Jan 21, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Cool car
> 
> 
> Seems like someone was quicker than me...


Time will tell. 

A bit more info:

http://www.motorauthority.com/ruf-previews-electric-future-with-new-greenster-convertible.html



> You might recall RUF previewing a concept version of its electric 911 last year. Today, at the Geneva Motor Show, the company unveiled a new electric vehicle based on the 997 Porsche 911 Cabrio. This isn’t just some farfetched concept as RUF full intends to start selling its electric vehicle as early as next year.
> 
> The electric powertrain, called eDrive, was developed by technology company Siemens and consists of an integrated electric motor and generator, electronic control module, and a lithium-ion battery array. In the Greenster, the powertrain is rated at 362hp (270kW) and 700lb-ft (950Nm) of torque and is mated to an automatic gearbox with only one forward gear and reverse. The entire vehicles weighs in at 1,695kg and can accelerate to 100km/h from rest in just five seconds. Top speed meanwhile, is a claimed 320km/h.
> 
> RUF will start limited production of the Greenster later this year for an expected sales launch in 2010. Also working on the project is California’s CalMotors, which plans to unveil its own electric concept in the near future. However, unlike RUF, no production plans have been mentioned.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

i am trying to find the link looking threw history, no luck . I've been on the site many times . that rating 750 hp was continuous . there is a lot of new information about sr motor/ control.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

After months of research and talking to lot of people and companies I finally have to give up the AC drive idea. It's just not possible at this time. I really tried hard...  

Plan B/ step 1:

*DC!!*

2 Kostov 9" 168V motors on the same shaft, bolted on the rear diff. 2 LogiSystem 144-156/1000A controllers and a LiFeBatt battery pack.

Plan B/ step 2:

If step 1 works out fine: The same like step one but at the front. 

Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome!


----------



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Good idea, have fun!

Just be sure to verify if you have enough place for 4 motors inline (2 for rear end, 2 for front end) if you want to go with step 2...

I do think you've made your researches, get out and melt copper! I've seen too many projects (Yes, I know, a lot of those are mine...) were there is so much thinking before getting the hands dirty that the project itself looses it's interest. Do it and don't regret it!

Dalardan


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm tired of all that research and comparing of parts... Finally I decided which components I will use for this project and ordered everything.




I'm also starting a new project as soon this one will be finished. The new project will have a lot more power in a very light two-seater chassis.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Where did you get it from, and how much was the motor and controller?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Where did you get it from, and how much was the motor and controller?


EV components

Ask them about $$$, I don't know if I should publish the price...


Dave Kois
Powered By DC, LLC
EV Components, LLC
[email protected]


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is this the unit?
http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=2


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is this the unit?
> http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=2


I think it is... I didn't seen it yet.


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

just looked at the LTI link from early April . great link . In high performance motors , heating of the rotors is the major limiting factor . Meaning these motors can be pushed to unheard of levels . The no shoot threw makes control building and developing much safer for igbt's . Last , 350 hz is on the low side for airplanes they run 400 to 800 hz


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

What range can I expect with the 35 kWh battery pack and the AC motor?


----------



## celsomenaia (Jul 26, 2007)

hello

you should check this site they have a Subaru with 2 Simens AC motors and a 35 kWh Kokam battery, they have done 35 miles (56 km) in close circuit.
http://www.proev.com/

best regards
Celso Menaia


http://www.evalbum.com/1267


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It depends on what your watt hour per mile is and how you drive it. If you're pulling 350 watt hour/mile, divide that into 35000 and you get 100 miles. Of course it will be less than depending on how deeply you can discharge the pack.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is this the unit?
> http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=2


This AC motor/controller will come into another car...

A few days ago I bought a Zilla. 340kW peak  

I ordered two Kostov 11" motors. (lead time 10 weeks )

Here are some pics of measuring the space for the motors. I think that the motors will fit almost whole in the gearbox tunnel.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

This project is getting very expensive so I think that a good idea would be to put all those high-end components in a more attractive car than the old, rusty BMW. 

The project would look much more seriously if it looks attractive. Looks is the first thing that people notice. They don't have to know what's inside. Average Joe just cares about the look, power and the range.

I think that one of this cars would be a great choice:

1. Mazda RX-8
2. Honda S-2000
3. Nissan 350Z
4. BMW Z4 

I need a RWD car with a front engine. The two Kostow 11s will come under the hood. The batteries in the trunk. 

Can you suggest any other model? I would choose some Corvette or Viper but we don't have a lot of them around... 

Cheers


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I decided to convert a RX-8. I will open a new thread when I purchase a car in the next few weeks. Till then I will keep posting here.

Here is the motor that will be custom made for my project



Dual 11"


----------



## Vitkur (Oct 10, 2008)

Did you buy those Kostov's directly from the manufacturer, in Bulgaria?
http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovlineofevmotors/
One of those motors costs 2000 USD there.

I was just wondering because the local price seemed a bit steep for me (althouth they also offer demo units for 1/3 the price, and with warranty)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Vitkur said:


> Did you buy those Kostov's directly from the manufacturer, in Bulgaria?
> http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovlineofevmotors/
> One of those motors costs 2000 USD there.
> 
> I was just wondering because the local price seemed a bit steep for me (althouth they also offer demo units for 1/3 the price, and with warranty)


I ordered them directly from the manufacturer. They will make the dual motor setup in the factory. That's the first one that will be made as far as I know...

The price is really good and I wasn't negotiating at all...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The battery pack will look something like this:



111 X 100Ah. 355V, 35kWh.

How much space do I have to leave between the cells? Do they get larger when their temperature is rising?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> How much space do I have to leave between the cells? Do they get larger when their temperature is rising?


Hi Cro,

I haven't used these cells myself, but have seen installations. I believe that it is required to band cells together with pressure on the sides to prevent swelling. The manufacturer should give advice on this. Check it out.

Regards,

major


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I think if they swell the plates can separate so keep them tight.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Cro,
> 
> I haven't used these cells myself, but have seen installations. I believe that it is required to band cells together with pressure on the sides to prevent swelling. The manufacturer should give advice on this. Check it out.
> 
> ...


Isn't that dangerous? The pressure on the cells could rise to a critical level because there are a lot of them. 

What's the deal if they swell? Shouldn't they get back to normal when the temperature is falling?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Isn't that dangerous? The pressure on the cells could rise to a critical level because there are a lot of them.
> 
> What's the deal if they swell? Shouldn't they get back to normal when the temperature is falling?


Hi Cro,

I don't know all about this stuff. But I was just talking to an expert last week who has done a bunch of installations. He put an aluminum plate on each end of a stack of 4 or 6 cells and uses steel bands or other means to compress the lot. Not tight to distort the cells from the start, but sturdy enough not to allow any expansion (swelling). He says TS must have this.

Check it out. Don't take my word for it. I'm just trying to help, but am not the authority by any means.

Regards,

major


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Cro,
> I'm just trying to help, but am not the authority by any means.
> 
> Regards,
> ...


I know that and I appreciate your help a lot. Your post are always a very good help!

I will ask my supplier about this issue.

Thank you!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Every application I've seen has the cells strapped together and they usually come with plates and straps from the manufacturer. Take from that what you will.


----------



## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

Hi Cro.
 
You probably know this automobile. http://www.evalbum.com/035.html
It is similar to to what in an end result you have come.
Here http://plasmaboyracing.com/ a lot of interesting about problems and a design.
And if you want to create more powerful automobile - that I think at you there will be difficulties with the batteries chosen you. The necessary current of 1000-2000 and more Amperes can give and Lithium, but a current of the category at a cell 3С. Parallel cells are necessary many, and it is bad.
Lead with it consults without problems. There are batteries to which it even is pleasant. But with the big weight of lead it is possible to struggle only reduction of capacity of a package.

Think better...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TS cells can do momentary 10C, the new SE cells can do 12C momentary.


----------



## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> TS cells can do momentary 10C, the new SE cells can do 12C momentary.


These batteries do not vent gasses as long as 3C in discharge is not exceeded. And 10C impulse only...

And you know that such impulse current? What frequency, what porosity, with what filling? Too it is very interesting to me, in fact batteries are not too cheap...

What length there should be a pulse? What length a pause? As far as the pulse and as far as the pause before the following pulse can be short can be maximum long?

If to speak aboutsystems DC- that there really there is a pulse management of the motor that allows to speak about pulse loading on the battery. I very much doubt that it operates and insystems AC.
But speaking and about pulse loading it is not necessary to forget aboutsystems DC, that loading on the battery can be pulse only for small and average values of capacity. On the maximal capacity the controller is open completely and all stream leaves on the motor... Any pulses...

At low power the length of a pulse is less than length of a pause. At capacity is higher than average - on the contrary. And here it is necessary to tell, that in a pulse at the battery it is possible to select a current up to 10C but if you operate loading no more P=U*3C, differently there will be an emission of gases from the battery and decrease of its characteristics further.

We take away from the battery a current in 10С a pulse, then the battery has a rest twice greater time before the following pulse of loading and in a result we have average value in 3С. If intervals are equal are 5С in a result. But to exceed declared by the manufacturer 3С I did not begin...


----------



## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

And one more automobile with the big ambitions... http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=1
And its configuration... http://www.evparts.com/article_zoom.php?ARTICLESTAG=Article1


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

gonduras said:


> And one more automobile with the big ambitions... http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=1
> And its configuration... http://www.evparts.com/article_zoom.php?ARTICLESTAG=Article1


 http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=1

that maniac mazda rx7 is using 4 dc power system controllers for 2 motors! twin controllers? is this possible?


----------



## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=1
> 
> that maniac mazda rx7 is using 4 dc power system controllers for 2 motors! twin controllers? is this possible?


 
The DC controller very simple device consisting of the generator of pulses of constant frequency and the powerful transistors passing through the big current. Management occurs by means of change are long pulses.
Capacity of the controller depends only on quantity of transistors which in the controller are connected in parallel. Nothing prevents to connect two controllers in parallel, that will double total capacity. 
It is necessary to synchronize only two controllers or to use the managing generator of pulses of one of them for management of powerful transistors of both controllers.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Some news from Kostov...



The rotor and the stator are almost ready. They will assemble and test it in the next few weeks and then ship it to me. Can't wait


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> The battery pack will look something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi CroDriver

Impressive build thus far, some serious money being spent 
What program did you use to draw this battery pack?

Regards
Grant


----------



## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

Looks like _Google SketchUp_, but im not sure


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yes, Sketchup. Great program


----------



## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

Good and simple to use !
I made my U M M in 3d 









I was thinking of a bi motor solution but its too expencive for me 
Well keep up the news of your BMW EV


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hmmm, a new idea 








Should´t I receive these connectors too?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Should´t I receive these connectors too?


 I would think so.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Should´t I receive these connectors too?


I think those are extra cost.


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

Keep up with the news/photos !


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

A new pic from Kostov:



Just a few tests left and it's ready for shipping


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What made you switch to DC? Sorry if you've already covered this; I looked back and couldn't find an answer.

Are you planning to do the series/parallel switching thing? That would be awesome with two 11-inch motors! Starting torque would be incredible!

Are you switching to an RX-8, or sticking with the Beemer?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> What made you switch to DC? Sorry if you've already covered this; I looked back and couldn't find an answer.
> 
> Are you planning to do the series/parallel switching thing? That would be awesome with two 11-inch motors! Starting torque would be incredible!
> 
> Are you switching to an RX-8, or sticking with the Beemer?


Hi.

I just couldn't find a powerful AC system. I tried everything. AC Propulsion and UQM have some good systems but they won't sell it to the general public. Siemens motors are very hard to find and there are no inverters for it, at least not for a reasonable price (200kW inverter for more than $30.000 ). I contacted Siemens's division for electric propulsion systems (this was very hard, I had to use some good connections) and they are not interested until you want to develope a production car. In this case you have to tell them what performance and quantity within 5 years you want and they develope a system especially for you. Guess that this is not an cheap option 

I got tired of searching for an suitable propulsion system so I just wanted to make the best system with available components. 

When I think about it now, I believe that this setup I'm building is probably better than any AC system. At least for the power. 

I would love to do parallel/series shifting but I have only the Zilla 1K controller. I hope that I will find a 2K controller. 

If I would have that controller I would make a battery pack of A123 cells. Over 350V and 2000 Amp would be some nice power  Even with the voltage sag and efficiency looses it would probably still beat every Ferrari.

The components will be built in an RX-8.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I would love to do parallel/series shifting but I have only the Zilla 1K controller. I hope that I will find a 2K controller.


Hm? So the Zilla 1K can't shift? That seems like a zilly, I mean silly , limitation since they're both using the Hairball anyway, right?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Qer said:


> Hm? So the Zilla 1K can't shift? That seems like a zilly, I mean silly , limitation since they're both using the Hairball anyway, right?


I'm not sure... I'm still waiting for the controller (Dave...?) and a lot of other things. If the 1K even supports the shifting, I would still love to have a 2K controller.

(Doesn't have to be a Zilla, Qer  )


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I'm not sure... I'm still waiting for the controller (Dave...?) and a lot of other things. If the 1K even supports the shifting, I would still love to have a 2K controller.


http://www.evsource.com/tls_zilla.php

It seems not all Zillas can do the shift, you need an -A or -AP-version for that. I can't help but wonder why that limitation exists. Perhaps -A is a later revision...



CroDriver said:


> (Doesn't have to be a Zilla, Qer  )


Working on it...


----------



## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> A new pic from Kostov:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few tests left and it's ready for shipping


Looks well, but... http://plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php
 

The 2008 version of the motor now has adjustable brush timing on the front section (0-15 degrees advanced) so that when being reversed the timing can be set at neutral - then returned to 15 degrees for forward motion, while the rear section is fixed at 15 degrees advanced. These photos show the timing lever, and the new reluctor wheel (for the EVision metering system's sensor) sandwiched between the Zilla tach sensor and the front section's end bell shaft stub. Special thanks to Jim Husted at Hi Torque Electric for the untiring support and expert motor artistry:


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Finally, I decided to build the components in the BMW till I purchase another modern and good looking donor sport car chassis. I just can't look at this batteries, motors and other components waiting in my garage for a chassis. I think that this is a great opportunity to get some experience. It's going really great so far, easier than I thought it would... 

I will post some photos on Monday

And here is a 3D model of the TS cells I made... I'm making a 3D model of every of my components


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Some old (since I posted the photos of the BMW a long time ago) and some new photos


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

BTW Admins --> Could you please turn this 10 image limit per post off?


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

wow the 3d batterys looks good 
Keep the new photos coming !!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> BTW Admins --> Could you please turn this 10 image limit per post off?


Please don't, it takes long enough to load with these over sized images


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Please don't, it takes long enough to load with these over sized images


Sorry, I thought you guys like photos and all have high-speed connections


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Sorry, I thought you guys like photos and all have high-speed connections


I like the photos and I have a high speed connection.
Don't worry about it. Keep posting !!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like photos, I have a high speed connection, but a slow computer  I can't imagine what people with slow connections have to deal with. Maybe if you just make the pics a little smaller that would help.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

This project has some really amazing groundbreaking potential...lets not be concerned about pictures and computer performance, etc...if it takes a little extra time to load, it shouldn't be a concern as it's worth the wait....

BMW Donor
Siamese 11"
High Power controller
S/P shifting
Lithium Cells


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I know... The parts look wrecked but they are in good shape after 20 years. They will get many new parts...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The weight distribution will not be optimal now. The rear batteries will probably come under the hood to achieve a 50-50 weight distribution 











Roll bar, sport seats and lithium batteries. Probably the first time together in one car, but definetly not the last time. Man, that's pioneer work


----------



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

I do specially like the last picture. Is the roll bar from the donor car our you've made it after you placed your battery packs?

Dalardan


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

After a 4 week long fight with my customs office, the Croatian postal service and the half country, today I finally picked up the last component for the BMW 





Cool sticker James, thanks


----------



## BiGH (Aug 7, 2009)

AWESOME.


----------



## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Awesome car

I know you switched to DC but were was Brusa in the AC motor consideration? Their hybrid motor looks pretty sweet. 
Just not enough power for your crazy needs?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> Awesome car
> 
> I know you switched to DC but were was Brusa in the AC motor consideration? Their hybrid motor looks pretty sweet.
> Just not enough power for your crazy needs?


Yeah, not enough for a maniac like me 

And the price is insane, even more than I am (what's not an easy task)


----------



## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah brusa is a bit priced.

Got a quote for a small car conversion on a GT30-T motor + 144V 250A controller 
6500euro with shipping. 

Little over my motor budget  but compared to other EV AC motors they are not the most expensive at least for smaller motors.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh that's a great deal for Brusa.

The 100kW inverter costs 20.000€ 

Insane...


----------



## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah not a bad deal but what I dont get why AC traction drives for EVs have to be so expensive when you think about how many industrial AC motors being made. 
Guess its just supply and demand.


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

as you are talking about ac motors and controllers...I want to ask if anyone knows anything about these guys and the motor they are using..

http://www.electric7.com/


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

efan said:


> as you are talking about ac motors and controllers...I want to ask if anyone knows anything about these guys and the motor they are using..
> 
> http://www.electric7.com/


I have no idea, never seen such a motor










The Super7 project and the AC motor are looking great


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

siemens made


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

80N541 said:


> siemens made


do you have any information about it?


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

the inverter they used is the Siemens Simovert 6SV (image on their website is the same as the one on metricmind's)

the motor is the siemens 1PV5105WS12

As siemens automotive branch was sold to continental last year, then re sold few weeks later to a dutch company (I forgot the name), I don't know if you'll be able to find that motor


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Any updates or pictures on this amazing project?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> Any updates or pictures on this amazing project?


Hi. You have a good timing. 

The car is almost ready to drive. I have a ton of photos, but I didn't want to upload them until the car is almost done. I will pick out a few and post them in a few days.

I have wired up everything and the controller seems to be fine (the green LED on the Hairball interface is on and no errors are recorded) but the car isn't moving when i push the throttle pedal. I checked the voltage on the pot+ and pot- terminal of the Hairball. When the throttle is 0 the voltage is 0,4V, and 4V with throttle full open. 

I checked the wiring several times, everything is OK so I don't see why it won't run. The motor runs fine when a 12V battery is hooked up.

I sent a mail to Travis from EV components today, I hope he'll have a solution.

When this is done I still have a lot of work to do. The BMS will finally arrive in a few days so I have to install it.

After that I will take the car completely apart to paint it and upgrade the suspension, brakes, interior... I want it to be very clean and like new

It has to be pretty when the racing season starts and it starts to beat petrol powered cars


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Dalardan said:


> I do specially like the last picture. Is the roll bar from the donor car our you've made it after you placed your battery packs?
> 
> Dalardan


Ups, I haven't seen this question till now. Sorry. 

I used this car for racing before I converted it into electric. I built the roll bar into it before I decided to convert it


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> Hi. You have a good timing.
> 
> The car is almost ready to drive. I have a ton of photos, but I didn't want to upload them until the car is almost done. I will pick out a few and post them in a few days.
> 
> ...


Do you have your wiring diagram? I installed my Zilla with no problem last week, using the first schematic posted in the provided manual. Do you have a Key Input and a Start Input? I have the Start Input keyed to the Key Input for simplicity.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> Do you have your wiring diagram? I installed my Zilla with no problem last week, using the first schematic posted in the provided manual. Do you have a Key Input and a Start Input? I have the Start Input keyed to the Key Input for simplicity.


I used the last diagram in the manual for now (one motor, no reverse or serial-parallel contactor, no RPM sensor). 

I have a separate key input. The green LED "main contactor on" lights up and everything seems to be fine but when I open the throttle nothing happens. 0V on the motor output of the controller 

I have set up all parameters on the hairball. I purchased a used controller from EVcomponents before they became available again. Maybe I have to restart the controller to factory settings and then set it up afterwards. Or maybe the cable that goes from the controller to the hairball is damaged. Hard to say...


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> I used the last diagram in the manual for now (one motor, no reverse or serial-parallel contactor, no RPM sensor).
> 
> I have a separate key input. The green LED "main contactor on" lights up and everything seems to be fine but when I open the throttle nothing happens. 0V on the motor output of the controller
> 
> I have set up all parameters on the hairball. I purchased a used controller from EVcomponents before they became available again. Maybe I have to restart the controller to factory settings and then set it up afterwards. Or maybe the cable that goes from the controller to the hairball is damaged. Hard to say...


Do a factory reset, then setup the Zilla to your specs. You should also check the Zilla Codes to get the status, like it is Waiting fo Key, or For Throttle, etc. I have been using the ZillaConfig app, which is nice: http://www.casadelgato.com/ZillaConfig.html


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I did the factory reset and checked all connections again but the car is still not running 

I have no idea what could be wrong


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> I did the factory reset and checked all connections again but the car is still not running
> 
> I have no idea what could be wrong


What does the Zilla give you as a Status when your ready to go? When mine is hooked up to the laptop and I am ready to drive, it says "Waiting for Throttle" until I hit the pedal and drive off.

Maybe also check your throttle setup?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> What does the Zilla give you as a Status when your ready to go? When mine is hooked up to the laptop and I am ready to drive, it says "Waiting for Throttle" until I hit the pedal and drive off.
> 
> Maybe also check your throttle setup?


I'm using a Palm for the Zilla programming 

It says "status 1311" or something like this


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jeez... I can't believe I am providing tech support for the dinosaur... Anyway, 1311 is "Waiting for Key". P. 19 of the manual.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Jeez... I can't believe I am providing tech support for the dinosaur... Anyway, 1311 is "Waiting for Key". P. 19 of the manual.


HEHE that's because you beat me to it!

Yeah, so that is Zilla talk for your Key Start/Key Input does not work. Check your wiring on your car and make sure the Voltage on the Key Input stays at 12 volts when the key is turned. I found it easier to forgo the whole "Start Key" thing and just rig them both up together cause I am lazy and like things simple.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> HEHE that's because you beat me to it!
> 
> Yeah, so that is Zilla talk for your Key Start/Key Input does not work. Check your wiring on your car and make sure the Voltage on the Key Input stays at 12 volts when the key is turned. I found it easier to forgo the whole "Start Key" thing and just rig them both up together cause I am lazy and like things simple.


The wiring is OK, the 1311 error show up when the switch was off so this part works as it should.

It seems like the factory setting turns the AC plug option in so the controller waits for you to unplug the charger (error 1414). I changed the state of this option.

After that the error 1313 (waiting for zero pot) turned on. I set the Amp limit to 10Amps and unplugged the pot and then just touched the pot+ pin and the motor started turning!! Woohoo  I don't have a RPM sensor now so i did that just for a second.

Seems like my pot has not a real "zero" state or I have wired it wrong (polarity) 

I have to go to a meeting now, I will try it tomorrow.

Thank you guys for the help, I appreciate it


----------



## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

You're a good man TA. Also, funny.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I have figured out where the problem is.

The pot box has 750 Ohm resistance at 0 throttle and 4,8 kOhm at 100% throttle. Seems like I have to purchase another pot box or is there another way to reduce the resistance at 0 throttle? The Zilla needs less than 150 Ohm to be at 0 throttle. 

And there is another problem. I have no old laptops with serial ports so I'm using a Palm for communicating with the controller. Most of the time I have just a blank screen on the Palm. I have to reconnect it for several times to establish the connection, sometimes it takes very long so it's very annoying. Has someone the same problem?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you can get a USB to serial cable.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

double post


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)




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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)




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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The car is ready for a test drive but I have still a lot of plans. This is just the basic construction of the drivetrain. I'm just getting warmed up


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Congratulations on your progress! I think i speak for many members when i say we are excited to see your speedy results!


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Looks good Crodriver.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow! That is some extremely impressive metal working!

I assume you have to enlarge the center tunnel in the car -- I'd love to see some pics of that.

What do you think your final front/rear weight distribution will be?


----------



## Ajmk2 (Dec 16, 2009)

Wow , what an amazing build. Those are some large billets of metal!

Good to see some support being developed! Are you offering machining and fabrication?

Good luck with the build.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Wow! That is some extremely impressive metal working!
> 
> I assume you have to enlarge the center tunnel in the car -- I'd love to see some pics of that.
> 
> What do you think your final front/rear weight distribution will be?


No, why would I have to do that? 

The gearbox is a standard BMW that fits perfect into the tunnel. The gearbox with two motors bolted on is a huge cylinder but it fits in the engine bay without modifications except that the cooler wouldn't fit now.

I thin that I have too much weight on the rear end now since I have "only" one motor in the car now. We have some problems with the dual motor setup. Every motor runs as it should separately but when they're bolted together there are some vibrations. This happens because the factory underestimated the precision requirements of such a project. The dual motor is very long and the shaft is going trough it from end to end so the flanges and the surfaces where the motors are touching each other have to be perfect precise made. The guys from Kostov are very helpful and have a great support so I'm very confident that we'll solve the problem.

If this works out as it should and the dual motor concept proves that it's a good option for a everyday-capable-sports-car I'll use a dual 11" 250V with double series parallel (windings + motors) shifting and two controllers for my next car. 



Ajmk2 said:


> Wow , what an amazing build. Those are some large billets of metal!
> 
> Good to see some support being developed! Are you offering machining and fabrication?
> 
> Good luck with the build.


We can make everything, but first I want to make at least three cars for myself. Theoretical knowledge is one thing but actually building EVs is a different thing so I want to lear and practice with my own money, not with the money from customers. 

I charged the car for the first time and I want to fainally drive it but there's 30cm of snow in front of my garage so I purchased and mounted winter tires today. I think that we'll have the first electric snow drift video this week


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

What kind of charger you got in the end of that 400V 32A outlet ?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> What kind of charger you got in the end of that 400V 32A outlet ?


It's a 64 Amp outlet. I have a Manzanita 40 Amp, maybe I'll upgrade that later.


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Ah 64A good to have proper power supply 

Have you seen the threads about the 20 and 15Ah 30C a123 prismatic cells on endless-sphere? 

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14719

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14832

Would server those motors much better than the thunderskys


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> Ah 64A good to have proper power supply
> 
> Have you seen the threads about the 20 and 15Ah 30C a123 prismatic cells on endless-sphere?
> 
> ...


I know... I'm still not sure if I will replace the TS with A123s or Headways. The EV-er hearth says A123 but the pocket Headway


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

As I promised...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqBXQ1lq0PE

ELECTRIC DRIFTING IS SOOO MUCH FUN!!


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Cro,

That's pretty cool! I can't wait to see it at full power on dry pavement. Congratulations!


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> As I promised...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqBXQ1lq0PE
> 
> ELECTRIC DRIFTING IS SOOO MUCH FUN!!


Amazing video. This is only 20% of what the car can do? This is going to be fun!  Noob question: Is the torque of the dual Kostov setup not going to kill your transmission/gearbox?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> As I promised...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqBXQ1lq0PE
> 
> ELECTRIC DRIFTING IS SOOO MUCH FUN!!


Cro my friend, Congratulations.

Please do let us know how the power curve feels, how does the power feel across the RPM band...

Tell us everything, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, Range miles.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> Amazing video. This is only 20% of what the car can do? This is going to be fun!  Noob question: Is the torque of the dual Kostov setup not going to kill your transmission/gearbox?


Right now it's 50% because I have only one motor inside, a 1000 Amp controller and 1200 Amp capable cells. When I add the other motor (in one month), build in a 2000Amp, 400V controller (soon I hope) and stronger batteries (in spring) the car can have over 800 hp on the wheels. 

This is at the very limits of the gearbox but we'll rebuild the whole transmission until the propulsion systems reaches the maximum power. 



Bowser330 said:


> Cro my friend, Congratulations.
> 
> Please do let us know how the power curve feels, how does the power feel across the RPM band...
> 
> Tell us everything, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, Range miles.


Thanks.

I just drove it for a very short time. It really goes fast, feels like a Tesla (I drove it). No sound, no vibration, goes like hell. I drove up a big mountain, a friend of mine hardly followed me in his 300 hp BMW but the voltage sagged to 2,6V per cell. It seems like electric cars are perfect for drifting! But I'm not confident to push it hard since I don't have a RPM sensor yet (working on it)

I'm "stuck" in the third gear now because I still have no gearbox stick (right word for the thing for changing gears?  )

The 12V systems are not working, the vacuum pump is not finished, no RPM sensor, the interior is junk, it's freezing inside... I just don't feel comfortable in the car so I don't want to drive it until it's perfect. I'm a perfectionist so it has to be perfect.

I'm just happy now. After all the research and work I finally drove my car!! I will get badly drunk this weekend


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I will get badly drunk this weekend


yeah

we're with you, cheer!


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Right now it's 50% because I have only one motor inside, a 1000 Amp controller and 1200 Amp capable cells. When I add the other motor (in one month), build in a 2000Amp, 400V controller (soon I hope) and stronger batteries (in spring) the car can have over 800 hp on the wheels.
> 
> This is at the very limits of the gearbox but we'll rebuild the whole transmission until the propulsion systems reaches the maximum power.
> 
> ...


Do you think after the complete instalation of the drivetrain the gearbox and differential are going to hold? Considering that the White Zombie is using a 9" Ford truck diff and no gearbox at all?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> Do you think after the complete instalation of the drivetrain the gearbox and differential are going to hold? Considering that the White Zombie is using a 9" Ford truck diff and no gearbox at all?


IMO, the hardest part of such a high power EV conversion is the BMS and everything that's behind the motor output shaft. Take a look at my photos on the previous site, you will see how many metal parts I have to design and fabricate.

Maybe Mr. Wayland (Plasmaboy) wanted to save weight, time and money. It's much easier to connect a motor to the kardan (gearbox output shaft - the shaft that's going into the differential in a RWD car) than to a gearbox with a clutch.

I did that because it's obvious that EV dragster are great at the first 100m of a quarter mile but they loose acceleration with raising speed (rising RPM - rising back EMF - lower torque), even if they have series parallel shifting.

I will have series parallel shifting + "real" shifting. Let's kick some gas asses real hard  (not only on the 1/4 mile)


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I was assuming 2 Kostovs end-to-end were too long for your motor compartment -- looks like that was wrong!

Have you tried bolting the motors 180 degrees (or other angles) apart? Another thought is to machine face the ends to be sure they are truly square to the axis of rotation.



CroDriver said:


> ... The gearbox is a standard BMW that fits perfect into the tunnel. The gearbox with two motors bolted on is a huge cylinder but it fits in the engine bay without modifications except that the cooler wouldn't fit now.
> 
> I thin that I have too much weight on the rear end now since I have "only" one motor in the car now. We have some problems with the dual motor setup. Every motor runs as it should separately but when they're bolted together there are some vibrations. This happens because the factory underestimated the precision requirements of such a project. The dual motor is very long and the shaft is going trough it from end to end so the flanges and the surfaces where the motors are touching each other have to be perfect precise made. The guys from Kostov are very helpful and have a great support so I'm very confident that we'll solve the problem.
> ...


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

do you have a nedd for the gearbox? with a fixed ratio, you may use to differential (one at front and the other one at rear) like proev done it on their impreza twin siemens.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Right now it's 50% because I have only one motor inside, a 1000 Amp controller and 1200 Amp capable cells. When I add the other motor (in one month), build in a 2000Amp, 400V controller (soon I hope) and stronger batteries (in spring) the car can have over 800 hp on the wheels.


How long does an average drifting run last? 30 seconds? A minute? Couple of minutes?

Because, you know, anything longer than 10-20 seconds and you are rapidly transitioning from the "peak power" rating of the motors (and, in your case, the controller) to the much lower "continuous" one. You will need some serious blowers to force ventilate each motor if you want to put more than 100kW into each of them for more than 10 seconds or so. And then there's the dinosaur... but I won't comment on that


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

80N541 said:


> do you have a nedd for the gearbox? with a fixed ratio, you may use to differential (one at front and the other one at rear) like proev done it on their impreza twin siemens.


That was my first plan (look at the beginning of the thread) but there is no need for 4WD since I don't have regen. With good and wide tires and the batteries above the rear axle there shouldn't be traction problems.

I don't know yet if there's a need for a gearbox. As far as I know there is non powerful EV with a gearbox and a clutch so we have no info about that. Just take a look at White Zombies videos - it is very fast at the beginning of the race but he's loosing acceleration when he gets faster.

I can simulate direct drive by driving in 5th or 4th gear only. I could measure the 1/4 mile time in 5th gear and with changing gears. Than we'll know the difference.

I also think that the range will increase significantly with a gearbox since DC motors are not very efficient at low RPM's. With a direct drive the motor would be at low RPM's for most of the time - that could also cause a overheat


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> How long does an average drifting run last? 30 seconds? A minute? Couple of minutes?
> 
> Because, you know, anything longer than 10-20 seconds and you are rapidly transitioning from the "peak power" rating of the motors (and, in your case, the controller) to the much lower "continuous" one. You will need some serious blowers to force ventilate each motor if you want to put more than 100kW into each of them for more than 10 seconds or so. And then there's the dinosaur... but I won't comment on that


This car is not built for drifting. Maybe I'll take it to a drift race for a short (two minute) run. 

You can see here how it looked like when I had the ICE engine inside the car:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CroDriver#p/u/5/7xgCVDKUdP8

Well, when could I replace the dinosaur with something stronger? Hmm, who could I ask about that?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You're probably making the right choice for your car with the transmission, since you have more mass to push around, and more frontal area to push through the atmosphere. The only question is if the BMW transmission and diff will be up to the torque of 400v/2000amp siamese 11" motors! If the tires keep spinning you probably won't cause any serious damage.

The real issue seems to be the batteries though, not the transmission. I don't think the White Zombie was slowing down because he didn't have a transmission - I believe it was because his battery pack didn't have enough left to keep pushing him faster. Should be a different story in 2010 though.


----------



## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

A few 20Ah a123 prismatic cells parrallel with each thundersky cell and problem solved


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> You're probably making the right choice for your car with the transmission, since you have more mass to push around, and more frontal area to push through the atmosphere. The only question is if the BMW transmission and diff will be up to the torque of 400v/2000amp siamese 11" motors! If the tires keep spinning you probably won't cause any serious damage.
> 
> The real issue seems to be the batteries though, not the transmission. I don't think the White Zombie was slowing down because he didn't have a transmission - I believe it was because his battery pack didn't have enough left to keep pushing him faster. Should be a different story in 2010 though.


There are a few tuners that made twin-turbo charged BMW engines with this transmission. They have up to 1200 hp. This kind of motors - with huge turbochargers have a lot of torque. If the transmission falls apart we'll build a 3 speed transmission from scratch. I've done that already but not for electric cars. 



Bentzon said:


> A few 20Ah a123 prismatic cells parrallel with each thundersky cell and problem solved


Maybe this or Headways only. I'm still not sure...

Btw. I was abusing the car today at -15 C for half an hour and the single Kostov 11" got pretty hot, almost too hot to touch. Seems like I need some serious fans. Or maybe I run it at too low RPM's since I'm still working on the RPM sensor... I'll have to test that further


----------



## RogerZ (Jan 5, 2008)

efan said:


> as you are talking about ac motors and controllers...I want to ask if anyone knows anything about these guys and the motor they are using..
> 
> http://www.electric7.com/


 
Hello,

the electric7 seems to be former version of the "Thorr" shown by dutch company EVISOL?

EVISOL is out of bussiness now, but HEC continues (dutch, too) www.hec-drives.com They use motors and inverters similiar to those made by Siemens-Automotive ("Simotion" series)

@Mate:
This could be an option for "plan B" (AC-drive) ...

Best regards,
Rolf


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...Btw. I was abusing the car today at -15 C for half an hour and the single Kostov 11" got pretty hot, almost too hot to touch. Seems like I need some serious fans. Or maybe I run it at too low RPM's since I'm still working on the RPM sensor... I'll have to test that further


Forced air cooling. I'm planning on one for mine. I have an air box design in mind, that the fans will pull from, that will allow me to use ice or dry ice. It'll push, through tubes, directly into the four comm-end ports on the motor.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

RogerZ said:


> Hello,
> 
> the electric7 seems to be former version of the "Thorr" shown by dutch company EVISOL?
> 
> ...


Hi Rolf. 

As far as I can remember Metric Mind said that this dutch company is not reliable and that they should be avoided. They have no own products, just relabeled Siemens motors and inverters.

Grusse nach Deustschland aus Kroatien 

Mate


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Rolf.
> 
> As far as I can remember Metric Mind said that this dutch company is not reliable and that they should be avoided. They have no own products, just relabeled Siemens motors and inverters.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure it's the same. I'm sure www.novomotive.com is the new home for those bad guys. But they could have (re)started more scam companies.

This hec-drives company is a lot older (11 years) than Evisol. So they cannot be a new project of the Evisol guys.

Edit again: OK, it is the same. Eddy Hustinx the present director of hec-drives is the former director of Evisol. Complicated stuff.


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

RogerZ said:


> Hello,
> 
> the electric7 seems to be former version of the "Thorr" shown by dutch company EVISOL?
> 
> ...


Do they sell to the public?


----------



## RogerZ (Jan 5, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Do they sell to the public?


... I sent an email with direct link to this thread to Eduard Hustinx from www.hec-drives.com Inviting him to join this forum and answer your question(s).

Let´s see what happens! 

Best regards,
Rolf


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's been pointed out that this company is run by the same people from Evisol, who I believe ripped off Viktor from metricmind.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache...tm+evisol&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache...tm+evisol&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a


Unfortunately such things are quite common in the EV business world. I have some very similar experiences with a popular US firm but I still hope that everything will be solved. If not, I'll do the same as Victor. I hope I don't have to do it


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Matthijs said:


> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache...tm+evisol&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a


A sad story, I'm very sorry to learn about your experience.
This is opening my eyes, I'm ready to start dealing with a Chinese company, manufacturers of AC drives components for Electric Vehicles.
Dealing through email is a PITA, language barriers is the first wall to climb, these people are hesitant on providing technical specs of the controller, apparently not field reprogramming/tweaking support and they want the money up front. WTF is going on?
I'm planning on walking away before I get all screwed-up with their merchandise.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Unfortunately such things are quite common in the EV business world. I have some very similar experiences with a popular US firm but I still hope that everything will be solved. If not, I'll do the same as Victor. I hope I don't have to do it


I dunno if keeping quiet - especially after so long - is such a good tactic. Generally, outing bad vendors on a public forum [edited] results in immediate satisfaction and helps the rest of the community (equally important is commenting on good vendors).


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I dunno if keeping quiet - especially after so long - is such a good tactic. Generally, outing bad vendors on a public forum (see Sam Shepherd's latest stunts on the EVDL) results in immediate satisfaction and helps the rest of the community (equally important is commenting on good vendors).


Excuse me you twit? You know absolutely nothing about the Sam Shepherd situation. We bent over backwards to help him and he has done nothing but complain. He was about to get sued by his customer and we helped expedite his order to him. The guy is just in over his head and is looking to blame other people

Before you go casually making statements like that, you better know your facts.

I understand you have issues, but I suggest you be much more careful before you start making claims about my company.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

OK, I think we should stop now. Please stay calm everyone.


----------



## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Rolf.
> 
> As far as I can remember Metric Mind said that this dutch company is not reliable and that they should be avoided. They have no own products, just relabeled Siemens motors and inverters.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

To avoid some misunderstanding here, I want to clear up. My company HEC is in EV business since about 1998. Business relationship with Metric Mind has been established around 2000. I know Victor in person. In 2006 I searched for business opportunities to be able to grow. I found a business partner who established Evisol. HEC supported Evisol with know-how. I had the function of CTO within Evisol. My business partner had the function of CEO within Evisol. I admitt that we made some wrong business decisions which involved Metric Mind and other customers. In jan 2009 Evisol has been bought by Novomotive, a Dutch company. However, the new management made big mistakes in the communication with Metric Mind and the situation escalated. By July 2009 I decided to stop cooperation with Novomotive/Evisol. In Oct 2009 the Dutch company Centric bought the assets of Evisol, leaving a lot of depts in Novomotive. Currently, Novomotive/Evisol owes quite some money to companies and persons, but they simply don't communicate. 
From the former Evisol management team, I'm the only one who admitts wrong business decisions and the only one who is not hiding. Victor knows that. Right now I'm re-establishing business of HEC and at some time I hope I will be able to compensate Victor's losses. 

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


----------



## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

Jan said:


> I'm not sure it's the same. I'm sure www.novomotive.com is the new home for those bad guys. But they could have (re)started more scam companies.
> 
> This hec-drives company is a lot older (11 years) than Evisol. So they cannot be a new project of the Evisol guys.
> 
> Edit again: OK, it is the same. Eddy Hustinx the present director of hec-drives is the former director of Evisol. Complicated stuff.


 
Hello,

As stated before, I stopped cooperation with Novomotive/Evisol in July 2009. Since jan 2009, when Evisol has been bought by Novomotive, I was no longer in the Evisol management team. Before jan 2009, I was responsible for technical development as CTO and I was also responsible for some wrong business decisions together with my business partner. I discussed all this with Victor, who I know in person. HEC will compensate his losses in future, since Novomotive/Evisol doesn't.

Please feel free to visit HEC web page: www.hec-drives.com

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx 
HEC


----------



## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

Grant_NZ said:


> Do they sell to the public?


Hello,

Yes, HEC is selling also to private persons. That's how I started business with HEC back in 1998. Please feel free to send me an e-mail ([email protected]) with your questions. 

Best regards,

Eddy Hustinx
HEC


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to see you here. Do you have a price yet for the motor and inverter?


----------



## ehustinx (Dec 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Good to see you here. Do you have a price yet for the motor and inverter?


It is company policy to never publish prices on the web. So please feel free to send me an e-mail and we can discuss your project off line.

Eddy


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

ehustinx said:


> It is company policy to never publish prices on the web. So please feel free to send me an e-mail and we can discuss your project off line.
> 
> Eddy


What products do you offer?

I'm interested in powerful AC and BLDC inverters and motors. 200kW minimum. You can send me a price in my inbox.

Thank you

Mate Rimac


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

ehustinx said:


> Hello,
> 
> As stated before, I stopped cooperation with Novomotive/Evisol in July 2009. Since jan 2009, when Evisol has been bought by Novomotive, I was no longer in the Evisol management team. Before jan 2009, I was responsible for technical development as CTO and I was also responsible for some wrong business decisions together with my business partner. I discussed all this with Victor, who I know in person. HEC will compensate his losses in future, since Novomotive/Evisol doesn't.
> 
> ...


Thanks Eddy for explaining this. I hope you'll be able to compensate Victor in the future.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

CroDriver,

I saw this and thought you might be interested... someone in Australia is building a bimoto bmw too. 

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1446


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

etischer said:


> CroDriver,
> 
> I saw this and thought you might be interested... someone in Australia is building a bimoto bmw too.
> 
> http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1446


Thanks for the link

I already saw that project since I'm active on the Australian forum too. Nice project.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I dunno if keeping quiet - especially after so long - is such a good tactic. Generally, outing bad vendors on a public forum [edited] results in immediate satisfaction and helps the rest of the community (equally important is commenting on good vendors).


Equally important is outing poor designs that are likely to blow up because the designer barely knows what he is doing.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

*


CroDriver said:



OK, I think we should stop now. Please stay calm everyone.

Click to expand...

*Whatever is going on PLEASE take this somewhere else, this is CroDriver's thread....

Back on topic....

CroDriver, any updates on the performance with one kostov 11?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> CroDriver, any updates on the performance with one kostov 11?


Nop.

I'm not home, I went away with my family for Christmas and new year, after that I'm going to Austria for 10 days skiing so I won't see the car for two weeks.

But even if I would be home I doubt that I would drive a lot. I want to finish the mechanical part of the conversion and then take the whole car apart and paint the chassis, build in new suspension, brakes, make a new interior... The car drives now but it looks horrible inside (rusty, cables hanging around, nothing in the interior works...) so I feel uncomfortable in it. 

I want it to look something like this:










When it looks like this I can feel comfortable and drive it as my daily driver. With the current interior I can just do some short test drives since I can't even make it street legal here with the interior in that condition.

I want to finish it till it gets warmer (maybe 3 months) but it has to be perfect in every aspect


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

...and thanks for the support over the past year!!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I really didn't need to see that 
Let's try to erase that image


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

A little update:

The BMW is almost finished. I installed water cooling for the controller, a RPM sensor for the motor and the vacuum pump for the breaks. 

I raised the amp limit to 1000A but it seems like this is too much power for the BMW components.

I first broke the shaft that's going from the diff to the rear right wheel (don't know the English word ), and yesterday the clutch got smoked.

I will now install the BMS, a in-car-PC and a big touch screen and enforce the transmission. After that the car will be taken apart for painting.

The next bi-moto project already started. Just a little teaser:










Lots of horsepower


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

keep posting

great job you are sharing with us


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I first broke the shaft that's going from the diff to the rear right wheel (don't know the English word ), and yesterday the clutch got smoked.


Axle shaft, or half shaft, or CV shaft.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I bow in your general direction! That is awesome work!

Something the http://www.NEDRA.com racers discovered is the suddenness of the torque is a problem. A electric motor can go from 0 to full torque so quickly it suddenly hammers the driveline if there is any slack. For drag racing, the fix is easy, just do a little go pedal against the brakes, while staging, to take up the slack. For road racing type use, maybe you could slow the ramp on the controller, or put a capacitor in the gas pedal potentiometer circuit to slow the response a bit.



CroDriver said:


> A little update:
> 
> The BMW is almost finished. I installed water cooling for the controller, a RPM sensor for the motor and the vacuum pump for the breaks.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> The next bi-moto project already started. Just a little teaser:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dual Motor/Controller AWD, Direct drive, cylindrical cell powered, E92?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Sutitan said:


> Dual Motor/Controller AWD, Direct drive, cylindrical cell powered, E92?


Yap


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Yap


That's a boat load of 17$ cells bro!

In Spanish you would say "Mucho Dinero"


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> A little update:
> 
> I raised the amp limit to 1000A but it seems like this is too much power for the BMW components.
> 
> ...


I was afraid this would happen. And that is not even close to full power. What for components are you planning to use now. I guess you want to be able to use the components to it's full capacity.  

I have a question about the Kostov dual 11". Are they using a one shaft setup with a dual armature?


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Matthijs said:


>


.
.
.
Uhmmm..............Yummy
.
I want one....... 
.
.
.
.


----------



## Brandonlock (Jan 13, 2010)

Iэm a noob in the knowledge of electric motors, in the photo shows an electric motor, which rotates the front axle?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> I was afraid this would happen. And that is not even close to full power. What for components are you planning to use now. I guess you want to be able to use the components to it's full capacity.
> 
> I have a question about the Kostov dual 11". Are they using a one shaft setup with a dual armature?


My Kostovs have a male-female shaft connection, one motor-one shaft. But I have only one in the car now.

We're building all transmission components from scratch. Something very special, more details will follow in summer, when the car will be finished.

I will use other motors, other batteries...



Brandonlock said:


> Iэm a noob in the knowledge of electric motors, in the photo shows an electric motor, which rotates the front axle?


The shown motor is powering the White Zombie I think (it's rear differential and wheels).


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

CroDriver.
I have a question about adapter plate thickness.
Just want to check if there is any more reduction possible.
What was your distance between transmission and motor?
You used original clutch assembly I think.

It's nice to see a good pace on EV production you have.

zw


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> CroDriver.
> I have a question about adapter plate thickness.
> Just want to check if there is any more reduction possible.
> What was your distance between transmission and motor?
> ...


Hi. 

I have no idea how thick it is. I guess it's somewhere 4 cm and 6 cm. I'll measure it. It could be thinner but the motor output shaft would have to be shortened or the clutch removed.

I had some cool stuff lying around so I thought I'll just take some photos:


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Thnx Cro.
Great pics.
It's really Z2K-EHV?
Would you open the case of it and post some photos of monsters guts?

zw

P.S.: What are those bat. cells? Do you plan to build your own battery modules?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> Thnx Cro.
> Great pics.
> It's really Z2K-EHV?
> Would you open the case of it and post some photos of monsters guts?
> ...


Yes, this is one of the two Zillas for my new car. I'll take some new photos tomorrow. 

The cells are top-secret  And yes, I'm building a own pack and I hired some guys to help me design a custom BMS. The batteries are going to be under the car (not the BMW), just 4 cm thick, 60 kWh and 4000 Amp peak


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Yes, this is one of the two Zillas for my new car. I'll take some new photos tomorrow.
> 
> The cells are top-secret  And yes, I'm building a own pack and I hired some guys to help me design a custom BMS. The batteries are going to be under the car (not the BMW), just 4 cm thick, 60 kWh and 4000 Amp peak


Fantastic.
If the hired guys fail you can still PM some people here on the forum


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> Fantastic.
> If the hired guys fail you can still PM some people here on the forum


It's hard to develop such products if the developers are spread all over the world... It's much easier if the team can meet, discuss the progress and further steps etc.


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

So those are not the A123 15Ah/20Ah Prismatic cells?  I do not see any bar codes on them. Those batteries are amazing! You are getting some top notch components together right there. 

To get an overview. You are making 3 vehicles simultaneously? 

1 Bmw E30 with 2 Zilla 1000 Amps HV and TS batterypack + dual 11" Kostov
1 Bmw E92 with 2 Zilla 2000 Amps EHV and A123 batterypack + (dual) Warp 11" HV??
1 GTM with above E92 components?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> So those are not the A123 15Ah/20Ah Prismatic cells?  I do not see any bar codes on them.


I can't tell you the brand, but trust me, these are amazing! 



Matthijs said:


> To get an overview. You are making 3 vehicles simultaneously?
> 
> 1 Bmw E30 with 2 Zilla 1000 Amps HV and TS batterypack + dual 11" Kostov
> 1 Bmw E92 with 2 Zilla 2000 Amps EHV and A123 batterypack + (dual) Warp 11" HV??
> 1 GTM with above E92 components?


The BMW E30 is working and now I'm finishing it. When everything works the car will be taken apart and painted. It will get a new interior and other non-EV related stuff. Then I can make the homologation.

I'm working on the new project quite a while but more with numbers and 3D models than with real components. 

The BMS is custom made, just like the batterie... I hope that both cars will be finished until summer.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

My elition BMS arrived.

This is the main unit:










This are the cell boards:










This are "end boards" 










...and a current sensor:










Here is a photo of all the different parts:










I quite surprised that the cell and end board don't have the connector for the main unit already on the cables. I hope it works...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBw8I_4jtE

Have fun watching


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBw8I_4jtE
> 
> Have fun watching


Cool!!! I like it. When part 2 will be available??


----------



## BiGH (Aug 7, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBw8I_4jtE
> 
> Have fun watching


awesome


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Awesome! Definitely looking forward to part 2


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBw8I_4jtE
> 
> Have fun watching


F'n awesome!


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Nice video! Boy, are you guys having fun!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thank you guys!

We'll have to wait a couple of months for part II since the car looks like this now:










It's being completely rebuild now.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Thank you guys!
> 
> We'll have to wait a couple of months for part II since the car looks like this now:
> 
> ...


Is that motor we see the double(siamese) or still the single?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Is that motor we see the double(siamese) or still the single?


Still the single motor. The other one will be in the car soon I hope.


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Thank you guys!
> 
> We'll have to wait a couple of months for part II since the car looks like this now:
> 
> ...


CroD.. I think that the vehicle will catch a cold like that, you should put an "electric blanked" in order to keep it warm 'till springtime.....


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

looks like weight reduction stage 3


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hehe 

Who want to be beautiful must suffer


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So with Dual 11"s with each a Zilla 2K...that means you will need batteries that can supply 2000A (motor amps) to each motor....your super secret batteries up to the task??

300V Battery Volts
150V Motor Volts (50%PWM)

2000A Battery Amps
4000A Motor Amps (50%PWM)

4000A will be perfect for you to apply 2000A to each motor...

I am just not sure how PWM% relates to RPM, Voltage, and Amperage...meaning....with a 300V Pack, whats the highest rpm you could pull 2000A, 1500A, 1000A etc.

Is PWM relative to the motor redline? meaning...5000rpm = 100%PWM, 2500 = 50%, 3750 = 75% etc.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser, you're talking about the GTM, not the BMW, right?

The GTM battery will have 360V nominal and will be 4000+ Amps capable. I think that it will sag to 250V @ 4000 Amps so battery voltage will be motor voltage at this point, just like battery and motor amps.

The motors in the GTM are wound for 300V so every controller (two of them) will be limited to 300V output.

Here is a graph we made based on some information from a factory dyno test at 72V










We believe that the motor isn't usable above 5000 RPM unless we can somehow weaken the field. We still have to figure out how to do this.

There are so many problems with DC systems. Weight, efficiency (expected to be under 60% at that power levels!), no regen... I can't wait until high performance AC systems come on the market!

P.S. I don't think that 100% PWM = motor RPM redline since DC motors can fly apart if not under load even at lower voltages


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

good point...

I was talking about the BMW, will the BMW only use 1 Zilla2K?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

There is no point in two controllers in the BMW since ThunderSkys are not very happy above 1000 Amps anyway. If I will have time and motivation left when I finish the GTM, I will upgrade the BMW batteries too. Right now, I think that I won't have the motivation to do this but who knows...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The car should be back from the paint shop next week.

While the car is at the paint shop we are doing a lot preparations. It's getting a new battery pack, new controller, a car PC, two LCD screens, fancy monitoring software etc. 

New Headway cells should arrive next week:




























Carbon fiber box for the controller, DC/DC converter and water pump










PC and hairball box:










This are a few weeks old photos, I will shoot new photos when the car comes back...


----------



## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

I like the box idea! Carbon fiber looks very nice! What kind of material is it mounted on?  Also a very nice connection for the controller. Do you have some pictures of that next time? Did you make the box yourself? I also like your pc box. Is it safe to have your waterump in the box? What if it fails? Very impressive.


----------



## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

Any concern about having the pump in the same box as the controller? If the pump fails and starts leaking/spraying water it will fry the Zilla.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> I like the box idea! Carbon fiber looks very nice! What kind of material is it mounted on?  Also a very nice connection for the controller. Do you have some pictures of that next time? Did you make the box yourself? I also like your pc box. Is it safe to have your waterump in the box? What if it fails? Very impressive.


We made the carbon box for the zilla. It's mounted on Plexi glass wich is supported by aluminum bars.



Tahoe Tim said:


> Any concern about having the pump in the same box as the controller? If the pump fails and starts leaking/spraying water it will fry the Zilla.


I didn't ever see a failed water pump. And even if it fails it won't leak. It will just stop pumping.


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

i saw your car with thundersky batteries, are they any good compared to the headway batteries your getting? i mean, i know the headway cells are amazing but what was wrong with the thunderskies?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The only thing "wrong" with the TS cells is lower C rates. TS does about 3C max with a few seconds of higher bursts, while the headway cells are good for much more, maybe 10C or better. However, they are smaller cells so you need more of them and they cost a lot more.


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The only thing "wrong" with the TS cells is lower C rates. TS does about 3C max with a few seconds of higher bursts, while the headway cells are good for much more, maybe 10C or better. However, they are smaller cells so you need more of them and they cost a lot more.


 i looked on the spec sheet on the "ev conponents" page and it shows a 20c max discharge with 3c as its max continous discharge. yet the headway batteries have a 20c max discharge that last 3 minutes; so what would its max discharge be for 10 seconds?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> i looked on the spec sheet on the "ev conponents" page and it shows a 20c max discharge with 3c as its max continous discharge. yet the headway batteries have a 20c max discharge that last 3 minutes; so what would its max discharge be for 10 seconds?



I would imagine if they can hold 20C for 3min (180seconds) that they could handle a bit more for 10sec..However I would reach out to Ev Components directly for that information. It may not be something they are willing to broadcast on the forum, but if you are a serious customer and you work with them I am sure they will provide more unofficial & non-warrantied information they have...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> i looked on the spec sheet on the "ev conponents" page and it shows a 20c max discharge with 3c as its max continous discharge. yet the headway batteries have a 20c max discharge that last 3 minutes; so what would its max discharge be for 10 seconds?


I'm pretty sure the TS 20C max discharge is "pulsed", which means less than a second. Lots of Headway data on the Endless-sphere forums http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14
They've done some extreme testing on them.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

A few pics from yesterday... 














































The painting guys are soooo slow


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

that box is pretty sick looking , very clean. i really hope to see you car in some performance magazines soon, get everyone to start looking at electric for performance. also, as a side note, what was your max output on your TS pack? and when will you get the headway pack in? is it around a 1000 batteries?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> that box is pretty sick looking , very clean. i really hope to see you car in some performance magazines soon, get everyone to start looking at electric for performance. also, as a side note, what was your max output on your TS pack? and when will you get the headway pack in? is it around a 1000 batteries?


I'm glad you like it. I think that I was pulling 800 Amp peak from my TS cells but I charged them only once so I don't really have much experience with them.

The Headway pack will be made of 896 cells. They should arrive this week and the car should be in driving condition very soon (maybe two weeks from now). I want to attend to lots of races this summer.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet! What kind of range are you expecting - in race-style driving? You're planning to go head-to-head with ICE cars in the twisty stuff right? You're definitely going to create a lot of positive press for the EV community.


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Sweet! What kind of range are you expecting - in race-style driving? You're planning to go head-to-head with ICE cars in the twisty stuff right? You're definitely going to create a lot of positive press for the EV community.


 i agree 100 percent! when you get this thing out there, it over for ICE! (hoping). but what will your battery pack voltage be for the headway? and I think this thread would be the best to answer this question, what voltage and amprage would be needed to power two warp 9"'s in series up to 300hp through a zilla contoller? i want to be able to shift from series to parrallel like the white zombie but i need to know what stuff to buy and how much, time to pull some equity out of the house( you know, for new carpet, right?..... ..... )also, im changing the car i want to do this in and im thinking of a mazda miata, but if anyone knows a car lighter but not gay looking, let me know.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> i agree 100 percent! when you get this thing out there, it over for ICE! (hoping). but what will your battery pack voltage be for the headway? and I think this thread would be the best to answer this question, what voltage and amprage would be needed to power two warp 9"'s in series up to 300hp through a zilla contoller? i want to be able to shift from series to parrallel like the white zombie but i need to know what stuff to buy and how much, time to pull some equity out of the house( you know, for new carpet, right?..... ..... )also, im changing the car i want to do this in and im thinking of a mazda miata, but if anyone knows a car lighter but not gay looking, let me know.


Sorry but this thread is not about twin warp 9's in a car that's "not gay looking" it is about twin kostov 11's in a BMW E30...

Your question about two warp 9's and voltage and amperage has already been answered in several different threads that reference the crazy horse pinto http://www.evalbum.com/1093
He has over 300 hp with 2 warp9s and Zilla 2K...He now works/consults for EV Components so if you were buy your parts from them, I'm sure Mike would be willing to offer you some free advice on your setup...

Also, a few bits of advice: 
(1) Don't take equity out of your house for a DIY EV in this type of economic climate, unless of course you have some other form of financial security/savings.
(2) Lets try to use a little mature language in referring to car body styles. You are on a forum with very intellectual and mature members.. "gay looking" is not exactly the type of wording that is casually used around here.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> (2) Lets try to use a little mature language in referring to car body styles. You are on a forum with very intellectual and mature members.. "gay looking" is not exactly the type of wording that is casually used around here.


Have you seen some of the threads around here   "Gay looking" is mild. Not that there's anything wrong with that


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Have you seen some of the threads around here   "Gay looking" is mild. Not that there's anything wrong with that


I would like to think those threads you are referring too were an exception to the general rule. They were moderated effectively, and everything seems to be under control. Everyone's allowed a slip here or there, right?

Have you seen Major's thread about horsepower or torque? That thread is so full of technical knowledge and theory it is quite the read, and I gotta say my mind went numb about halfway through.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> i agree 100 percent! when you get this thing out there, it over for ICE! (hoping). but what will your battery pack voltage be for the headway? and I think this thread would be the best to answer this question, what voltage and amprage would be needed to power two warp 9"'s in series up to 300hp through a zilla contoller? i want to be able to shift from series to parrallel like the white zombie but i need to know what stuff to buy and how much, time to pull some equity out of the house( you know, for new carpet, right?..... ..... )also, im changing the car i want to do this in and im thinking of a mazda miata, but if anyone knows a car lighter but not gay looking, let me know.


As the guys told you, and I told you before - you have to do some homework. We can't do everything for you. It will be a lot easier to find out by yourself and make your own conclusions and decisions so you don't have to ask for everything on the forum. That would be thousands of questions in such a project. My pack will have about 350V nominal.

Btw. The Miata won't have enough space for twin motors in a "traditional" coupling style. You would have to arrange the motors side by side and connect the shafts via chain or belt drive. Maybe the (not so gay) S2000 or RX8 would be a better choice.

Back on topic:




























A lot of machining is being done these days here. I'm so pissed about the lazy and slow painting guys  The whole project is hanging behind because of them... Every week they promise it to be finished next week. Every week the same story.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I would like to think those threads you are referring too were an exception to the general rule. They were moderated effectively, and everything seems to be under control. Everyone's allowed a slip here or there, right?
> 
> Have you seen Major's thread about horsepower or torque? That thread is so full of technical knowledge and theory it is quite the read, and I gotta say my mind went numb about halfway through.


I have to agree with you. I have never seen a forum with such knowledgeable and helpful members. Everything is working very harmonic and polite. I can remember only two little fights since I'm around here. But it's a pity that the racers such as John Wayland, Roderick Wilde and others aren't active here.


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

sorry, didnt mean to set anyone off. maybe i should have sayed an ugly brick weighing 5000 pounds in the end. whatever, im from california, also just bought the house and it already can sell for a bit more than i bought it. plus, i just like watching this thread, best looking car with best building parts, no offence to anyone elses biuld. y get mad?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

no one is mad rsx and we are glad to have you on the forum. There is a lot to learn in different threads and i encourage you to use the search function and look around for threads that can give you some insight into what you might need for your build...oh and congratulations on getting a house.

Back on topic...Cro...why do you have to show your X6 like that!, really not fair. Such a nice looking SUV.

Is it possible to use another paint shop since this shop is take so long? Maybe if you even threaten to take it away they will work faster?

is your plan to still mate the twin kostov11's through the E30 Trans?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> is your plan to still mate the twin kostov11's through the E30 Trans?


I'm pretty sure 2 Kostov 11's and a Zilla will remove the transmission for you, one gear at a time if it doesn't spill all the oil.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Is it possible to use another paint shop since this shop is take so long? Maybe if you even threaten to take it away they will work faster?


This worked


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ooooh, nice.

I have been thinking of what colour to paint my 12" motor and was thinking of your green Kostovs for inspiration.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like an excellent job from the pictures


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

......drools.........................

You did it properly too, car stripped down to the metal with all plastic and trim removed. Very nice.


----------



## Tinodesis (May 4, 2008)

Great color! I like green.


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

oooooooo shiny... 

Quality job too, does the green represent anything in particular?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

*[IMG]http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af153/CroDriver/maRe: BMW bi-moto EV project*



Grant_NZ said:


> Quality job too, does the green represent anything in particular?


Green energy for instance...


----------



## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

the anticipation is killing me! is it so much to say, " build faster!"  it is coming together beautifully!


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I would have to agree, crodriver my friend, this is coming along quite nicely.

please continue to keep us updated, I cant wait to see the performance figures!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's the green sheet material being machined?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What's the green sheet material being machined?


A plastic material. It's called "sipas" here, I have no idea how it's called in the US. Maybe it's the same name as lexan is the same everywhere.



rsx-1mw ride said:


> the anticipation is killing me! is it so much to say, " build faster!"  it is coming together beautifully!





Bowser330 said:


> I would have to agree, crodriver my friend, this is coming along quite nicely.
> 
> please continue to keep us updated, I cant wait to see the performance figures!


I'm doing as much as I can but there are soooo many details that are slowing the process down. Today we made the smaller sub-pack that will go in the trunk. The lexan box around it, the aluminum bars and BMS will be installed tomorrow.





















A little bigger sub-pack will be made this weekend - this one will be placed where the back seats used to be.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> A plastic material. It's called "sipas" here, I have no idea how it's called in the US. Maybe it's the same name as lexan is the same everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Are you building a car, or a death ray to take over the world?

Looks awesome, your car will end up being a rocket when its done.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...I'm doing as much as I can but there are soooo many details that are slowing the process down...


Does it feel like for everyone you take care of there are five more lined up behind it waiting for attention? 

That pack looks downright tasty - awesome Cro!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


>


Hey Cro,

The third cell down, forth from the left is in backwards. 

Yeah, just kidding  You were probably real careful about that. You use threaded studs from cell to cell thru the copper busbars? Good idea if you can get the proper torque. Anyway, looks impressive, even if it ain't chrome.

major


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


>


That needs a name.
All works of art have a name.

I don't envy you that pack, not one bit, no siree, not one little bit of envy, at all, honest.


----------



## BiGH (Aug 7, 2009)

Cro,
Sorry but i might have missed the post - what configuration are you looking at running for these cells? it was 896 cells total (i found that in a previous post) but what nominal voltage/ah are you looking at running?

ps loving your build (like everyone else here is!)
Haydon.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That needs a name.
> All works of art have a name.


Tower of Power, of course


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Tower of Power, of course


Yay! 

A power tower!


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

no folks.
it's portable lighting post.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Are you building a car, or a death ray to take over the world?
> 
> Looks awesome, your car will end up being a rocket when its done.


Yeah, the final plan is to take the world over 



major said:


> Hey Cro,
> 
> The third cell down, forth from the left is in backwards.


You got me with that one 



major said:


> Yeah, just kidding  You were probably real careful about that. You use threaded studs from cell to cell thru the copper busbars? Good idea if you can get the proper torque.


Yes, this design is simpler and saves weight. Every cell was rotated by hand until the blue heat-shrink began to slip over the cell.



major said:


> Anyway, looks impressive, even if it ain't chrome.
> 
> major


You really like those motors, don't you? 



Woodsmith said:


> That needs a name.
> All works of art have a name.
> 
> I don't envy you that pack, not one bit, no siree, not one little bit of envy, at all, honest.





BiGH said:


> Cro,
> Sorry but i might have missed the post - what configuration are you looking at running for these cells? it was 896 cells total (i found that in a previous post) but what nominal voltage/ah are you looking at running?


112s8p



JRP3 said:


> Tower of Power, of course


Oh yeah, that's the official name from now on 



zwmaster said:


> no folks.
> it's portable lighting post.


ZW, did you see how cool your office looks in those pictures? 

A couple more photos 



















Thanks for the kind words guys!!


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

rhâââ lovely ^^

keep going


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice work CRO
The pack looks deceptively huge but in fact is only 840mm long and 350mm square, weighes 130kg and cost about $7700AUD. (assuming those are 38120 10Ah Headways) 
Its tiny when you think about what it can do.
It could fit between the rear shock towers on the bimmer 

Im doing something similar for the R1 but using both parrallel and axial cell arrangement to make a L shaped pack


----------



## BiGH (Aug 7, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Nice work CRO
> The pack looks deceptively huge but in fact is only 840mm long and 350mm square, weighes 130kg and cost about $7700AUD. (assuming those are 38120 10Ah Headways)
> Its tiny when you think about what it can do.
> It could fit between the rear shock towers on the bimmer
> ...


Sorry but i'm doing the math and I think you might have missed something.
896 cells means $8.59AUD a cell. Also my data says that these cells are 330g each. (i'll weigh one when i get home) 896 x 330g = 295kg. what am i missing here?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi guys.

You can join the facebook page of my project to get the newest information firs.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/VST-C...ic-Vehicle-development/112641625432212?ref=mf


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Most powerful EV battery pack EVer...?


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Woah, now that's impressive! 

Whats the final weight of those beasts?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I think it will be a little bit over 300 kg (mounting hardware included)

We're working on the car as fast as we can...










New custom carpet











Carbon batterie pack floor (also custom made)




























Rear sub-pack installed 










Under the bonnet...










Custom carbon fiber box










...but still a lot of work to do.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looking good Cro. I know this has been asked/answered before, but I think I remember seeing a couple different numbers - how many cells make up the entire pack?

Also, how many "C" can Headways go up to (max), and how much total current do you have available?

Your project is the kind of car I was hoping someone would build, to show the real potential of electric propulsion.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Looking good Cro. I know this has been asked/answered before, but I think I remember seeing a couple different numbers - how many cells make up the entire pack?


110 series / 8 parallel - so 880 cells in total.

I was planing to make a 112 series / 8 parallel pack but I needed some cells for another project so I had to make the pack smaller. 



toddshotrods said:


> Also, how many "C" can Headways go up to (max), and how much total current do you have available?


25C when cold, over 30C when hot. I built the pack with 2000 Amps in mind. The pack voltage would sag to 220-250 At 1.800 Amp so I think we'll see almost 600 battery hp.



toddshotrods said:


> Your project is the kind of car I was hoping someone would build, to show the real potential of electric propulsion.


Thanks but electric propulsion can do a lot more than this car will be able to. AC is the key word. I'm also building other cars that I don't want to talk about yet. One of them should have double the power of the BMW and weight less


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...Thanks but electric propulsion can do a lot more than this car will be able to. AC is the key word. I'm also building other cars that I don't want to talk about yet. One of them should have double the power of the BMW and weight less


Thanks for the info, and I look forward the next ones. This is a step in the right direction though...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

We're working hard to finish the car in the next days...



















Some friends are helping...










My back, arms and legs hurt of working non-stop on the car (when ever I have a free minute).

I'm preparing the car for a drag race that will take place next week. A lot of people will come to the race just to see the EV racing against tuned gas cars. I still have a lot to do before the race...

To do:

Installation of the second motor
Interior 
Mounting of 17" rims and slick tires
Adapting BMW E46 M3 brakes
New suspension 
Lots of details
Testing
Testing
Testing
Testing
Testing

We will go to a racetrack in Thursday to test the car as good as possible... I think I won't sleep much the next days


----------



## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

hey Cro...

wish you good luck with the race.

where will the race be?

make some videos and put them on youtube...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks!

It's going to be in Osijek, Croatia. The track is a small, private airport with a normal asphalt - so no ground breaking results will be made (due to limited traction). 

I will take the car to a lot of races all around Europe this and next year when the car is finished. 

Don't worry, many friends with cameras are in the team


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You don't need the interior to race


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yeah, I know, but I'm used to new cars so I hate to see all the wires and bare metal inside the car.

And the car will raise TONS of media attention so I want it to be pretty. Maybe I should shave to be pretty too


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Nothing like an upcoming race to get one to hurry on finishing a car! Some vids and pics of the race would be awesome!


CroDriver said:


> Yeah, I know, but I'm used to new cars so I hate to see all the wires and bare metal inside the car.
> 
> And the car will raise TONS of media attention so I want it to be pretty. Maybe I should shave to be pretty too


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I clicked into this thread straight to the last post and saw the word race, and started scrolling to see what was going on! I was surprised to see drag race. I figured you intended on some straight-line racing, but thought I remembered your goal and experience was road racing?

Are you planning to do both (hoping the answer is a "yes" )?

Nothing wrong with drag racing, I am a diehard. I've just been waiting to see a street car do in autocross and/or road racing what the White Zombie has been doing at the drag strip -embarrasing ICE cars!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I'll take it to all kinds of races... Drag, rally and drift


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I'll take it to all kinds of races... Drag, rally and drift


Cool.  Good luck at the drag strip.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

cant wait to see more updates my friend. way to go!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yesterday I worked 22 hours non-stop on the car. Today 12. But we finally solved the biggest problems and now we can focus on making it fast. A few pics from the last few days...














































Custom rims


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Love it!!  Very impressive stuff.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I love the fact that there are people who can just do this.

I think your project and progress is amazing.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I love the fact that there are people who can just do this.
> 
> I think your project and progress is amazing.


Great for the EV community isnt it!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Great for the EV community isnt it!


Yep! 
It certainly gives a better image of EVs and EV potential then this sort of thing:


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks guys! 

Two days before the race I decided to build in the second motor


RPM sensor:










A very experienced rally engineer who's helping me with the mechanical stuff



















Relay, fuse and current sensor, all in one.










Still a lot of work for the good looks










Now more 24 hour shifts


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woo-hoo - siamese 11's!!!  I used to love thrashing to meet show and race deadlines. It's actually amazing how long the human body can keep going when properly motivated.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Woo-hoo - siamese 11's!!!  I used to love thrashing to meet show and race deadlines. It's actually amazing how long the human body can keep going when properly motivated.


I'm working best when under pressure. 4 a.m. here and still working on the car...

Copper bars with cables mounted exactly in the middle to distribute the same current to both motors


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I'm working best when under pressure. 4 a.m. here and still working on the car...


What an awesome project! You are quite a 'mentor' for many of us, you've come a long way, keep it up and save a few hours for sleep just before the race. In anticipation, I don't think I would be able to sleep...


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm getting just a little bit scared now.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


>


Hi Cro,

It appears like you have used nylon locking nuts. I recommend against using these nylocs on high current connections. The locking mechanism is dependent on nylon, which will soften with heat. Then you have a loose clamp and disaster. Stick with the standard high grade hex nut, split ring lock washer and flat washer. I know, picky, picky 

I have never seen this in writing anywhere; just personal advice from someone who has seen a few melted nylocs.

Good luck at the races. I'm at an electric race this weekend also. TTXGP in Wisconsin, USA. I think our #80 bike has you beat in kW/kg 

major


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks for the advice major! I would never have thought about that... I will take care of that after the race, I'm just too busy right now. 

Here is how the car looks like now:


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

It's FINALLY over! The last charging before the race...










Finishing some details











Some tears appeared in my eyes when the car was placed on the truck 



















We haven't had enough time to wash it 




















Now a few hours of sleep and the I have to go to the track... Fingers crossed


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Inspiring work my man! Have you done any testing yet in it's new configuration?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Inspiring work my man!


Thanks!



JRP3 said:


> Have you done any testing yet in it's new configuration?


Unfortunately - NO. Very bad weather with lots of rain for the last couple of weeks. It has never been so cold at this time of the year. Sunny and warm days should come back starting with tomorrow. Right on time.

I have driven it maybe 30 miles with the new configuration. I think that I have some motor problems. Arcing or corrosion of the commutator/brushes or problems because of the high humidity. The motor runs very jerky, like a car that's getting out of gas. And the controller keeps turning off and spitting out a lot of errors. I hope that it won't blow up in the middle of the race. I haven't had enough time to really find the cause of the problem

We have made a lot of time consuming and complicated modifications to solve the problems but none of them solved it completely.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a really fantastic finish to the project so far.

I hope you resolve the motor/controller gremlins and put on a good show, or even better, a win at the race. 

Well done on a fantastic project.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAASE make sure some one has a camera when you take it out there.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

+1 And I hope it all holds together. Now get some sleep!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

^^^ Ditto what he said & good luck! (we need a thumbs-up emoticon)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAASE make sure some one has a camera when you take it out there.


I hope this is enough










 

Finally nice weather! Just took this photo out of my house at 6 a.m.










Thanks for the support guys, you're the best!!


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

CroDriver said:


>


I thought I lived in a green country! Your green car in such green countryside will be in total stealth mode for the race, good luck!


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> I hope this is enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that will do and GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

*a*

Of curse I had to work on the car even at the track 










Some V8 monsters...










The car raised SO MUCH attention that I couldn't do anything other than answer millions of questions. This car was the most noticed on the race!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Poor me


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The smoke is of course comming from the huge racing slicks














































I somehow fried the front motor, the clutch and the gearbox. I almost fixed the gearbox and the clutch (unfortunately, it will keep on slipping). The front motor will stay in the car but it won't be connected to the controller. I don't have the tools here to remove the front motor.

The car has SO FREAKING MUCH power it spinns the wheels half the track, but the transmission can't keep up. I will limit the power tomorrow and rebuild everything (again ) when I come home...

Got to go, have to install a new gearbox until next morning...


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

That was a day you will never forget! Really great pics thanks, nice ones of car too! All the best for the rebuild. Many of us would love to be your pit crew.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Why didn't you taken any pictures of the cars that were there? I didn't see a single car in all those pictures! 



CroDriver said:


> ...I somehow fried the front motor, the clutch and the gearbox. I almost fixed the gearbox and the clutch (unfortunately, it will keep on slipping). The front motor will stay in the car but it won't be connected to the controller. I don't have the tools here to remove the front motor.
> 
> The car has SO FREAKING MUCH power it spinns the wheels half the track, but the transmission can't keep up. I will limit the power tomorrow and rebuild everything (again ) when I come home...
> 
> Got to go, have to install a new gearbox until next morning...


I was afraid of that, but didn't want to say anything - I was trying to think positive, and hope it (transmission) would last a couple/few races.

Any ET/MPH info?

Have fun - with the car too!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great stuff! Appreciate the eye candy as well  Hope it all holds together for another day.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Congrats! you now have more power than you can handle and that on the first try.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks like a really great day, shame a few people got in the way of you getting photos of your car.

Are you going to change to a stronger transmission system to cope with the full power of both motors eventually?


----------



## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I love the circuit board style vias in the pin stripping.


----------



## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

Cro what was your best time on the 1/4m?

maybe you have the wrong car for this power

you need something with 4WD and a good transmissionbox...

what do you think about a Audi RS2?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looks like a really great day, shame a few people got in the way of you getting photos of your car.
> 
> Are you going to change to a stronger transmission system to cope with the full power of both motors eventually?


I don't really know what I'm about to do now. Yesterday I wanted to build in one of the custom made 11" HV's that I have in my garage directly to the diff. But Plamen from Kostov made a good offer so maybe I'll stick to the Kostov motor.

Most likely I will build a new transmission from scratch that can carry both motor setups. I can build in the 11" HV while waiting for the dual Kostov to come back from the tuning...



RoughRider said:


> Cro what was your best time on the 1/4m?
> 
> maybe you have the wrong car for this power
> 
> ...


Haha I expected that you would suggest something from the VW concern 

You know that the really fast AWD cars get rid of the FWD because the front lifts and doesn't have any grip? Imprezas, EVOs and stuff like that.

My best time with 50% power, slipping clutch and contactor going off at half the track was 14,1 (1 sec. reaction time  )

Here's a short video of the run when I lost the gearbox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocmTqLnUhOU


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> My best time with 50% power, slipping clutch and contactor going off at half the track was 14,1


That's pretty good considering


> (1 sec. reaction time  )http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocmTqLnUhOU


Did you fall asleep?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Did you fall asleep?


No. This:










...happened just before I went to the start line so I was somewhere else in my mind


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

So would you scratch build everything for a custom transmission or adapt and convert using strong internals from something else?
I have done that before making a 3 speed 6x6 transfer box for my truck 25 years ago.








Standard gear wheels but on new and modified shafts to give a remote input, PTO output, front output and twin rear outputs.





CroDriver said:


> No. This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...happened just before I went to the start line so I was somewhere else in my mind


I guess I'm lucky I don't have that problem, I'd be more likely to be distracted by this sort of thing instead:


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So would you scratch build everything for a custom transmission or adapt and convert using strong internals from something else?


I have a brand new racing BMW M3 E92 differential with custom reduction ratio. We'll make half shafts and the prop shaft dimensioned to withstand the torque. 



Woodsmith said:


> I guess I'm lucky I don't have that problem, I'd be more likely to be distracted by this sort of thing instead


LOL  I think I'm quite happy with my "problem"


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I guess I'm lucky I don't have that problem, I'd be more likely to be distracted by this sort of thing instead:


Not into girls, eh? Not that there's anything wrong with that


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Not into girls, eh? Not that there's anything wrong with that


Oh, I'm into women, just not those very young, scantily clad ones. But I would be more distracted by machines. When I got married I spent my honeymoon photographing construction plant! Had more photos of machines then of my wife.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Here's a video a friend of mine recorded. You won't understand what we say because it's on Croatian...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvQDZZ2Uqg&feature=player_embedded


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nitrous-ready drag racing components can save you a lot of time in research and development. You can simply call and order driveshafts (prop shaft to you guys across the pond) and diffs that are made to handle professional race cars running insane levels of hard-hitting nitrous. A couple Pro Mod guys I know run 300-400 horsepower hits right off the line, and add two more stages down the track. If nothing else maybe you could get your u-joints, etc, from those type sources.

I mentioned it because you're running siamese 11s, which I assume will be doing the series/parallel switch. That means you're going to have tremendous torque off the line. I don't even know if the $3500 Ford 9" drag race rear ends the current EV racers are running could stand up to that.

So, if you're building new components to spec you have some specs to build to, right? Care to share how much torque you're expecting? I can't see why it wouldn't be in the 2000 ft.lb. range, theoretically. 

Just thinking about siamese 11s makes me  !


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't understand Croatian, but still liked your passengers response at about 1:35 when you hit the gas pedal!


CroDriver said:


> Here's a video a friend of mine recorded. You won't understand what we say because it's on Croatian...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvQDZZ2Uqg&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Amazing stuff, and those girls, excellent my friend! Girl with the boots was my choice too!

Hey so back to business, maybe no trans is the best idea and just see how she runs on a ford 9" rear-end built for dragsters..that MIGHT work...haha.

youre car is a beast!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

OK, this one is really wiered stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2oKpkgBVbE&feature=player_embedded#!

I have some really crazy friends...  Thanks God you don't speak Croatian and can't understand the nonsense we're talking


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Maybe I should take some lessons LOL

So you placed second over all?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

No, the friend who made the video placed second in the 12 sec. class. He's driving a tuned Nissan Skyline


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Ah, ok. Looks like you all had a blast though.


----------



## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

Cro,

You've convinced me to build a Headway pack. Were all your cells good when you received them or should I figure on ordering some extra?

Galeson


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I think that two out of the 1000 cells had a loose epoxy side. That's not so important but we needed to torque them when assembling the pack so it was a problem for us. It's always good to have at least 10 spare cells. You'll probably make some mistakes during the build...

A few more pics...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)




----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice. Do you have clear airflow to the back of the Manzanita, and can you get full output from it without over temperature problems? I can't get more than about 15 minutes of full output from my PFC30 on a warm day before it goes into overtemp and starts cutting back. Of course that's when charging at 240 VAC, which is inefficient because of my 120 VDC pack.


----------



## jpmorgan (May 22, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Unfortunately such things are quite common in the EV business world. I have some very similar experiences with a popular US firm but I still hope that everything will be solved. If not, I'll do the same as Victor. I hope I don't have to do it





Tesseract said:


> I dunno if keeping quiet - especially after so long - is such a good tactic. Generally, outing bad vendors on a public forum [edited] results in immediate satisfaction and helps the rest of the community (equally important is commenting on good vendors).





EVComponents said:


> Excuse me you twit? You know absolutely nothing about the Sam Shepherd situation. We bent over backwards to help him and he has done nothing but complain. He was about to get sued by his customer and we helped expedite his order to him. The guy is just in over his head and is looking to blame other people <snip a bit>.





EVComponents said:


> Equally important is outing poor designs that are likely to blow up because the designer barely knows what he is doing.


Oh the irony.

And if there is anything to take from this thread other than CroDriver cannot hit the side of a beautiful car with a wide angle lens, is this:



EVfun said:


> I'm pretty sure 2 Kostov 11's and a Zilla will remove the transmission for you, one gear at a time if it doesn't spill all the oil.


Excellent thread by the way. When are you running the car again?

JP


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice. Do you have clear airflow to the back of the Manzanita, and can you get full output from it without over temperature problems? I can't get more than about 15 minutes of full output from my PFC30 on a warm day before it goes into overtemp and starts cutting back. Of course that's when charging at 240 VAC, which is inefficient because of my 120 VDC pack.


It has enough clearance to the trunk floor. I noticed it's quite hot even at relatively low currents so I have never ramped it up to the maximum. That's a 40 Amp charger btw. I'll try it when the car is ready again.



jpmorgan said:


> And if there is anything to take from this thread other than CroDriver cannot hit the side of a beautiful car with a wide angle lens...




Sorry, I'm not a professional photographer 



jpmorgan said:


> Excellent thread by the way. When are you running the car again?


Thanks. I have to remove the batteries, the dual 11", the gearbox and all transmission related parts (diff, half and prop shaft), build in a 11" HV, fabricate half and prop shafts, motor and diff mounts. It will take at least two weeks.

I like EVs. You build them half a year, then you drive it one day and then you rebuild it again half a year, then you race it for two days and rebuild it again


----------



## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Sorry, I'm not a professional photographer


I know how it is when all that flesh gets in between a beautiful car and a camera  I haven't yet figured out yet if its the car.... or the camera 



CroDriver said:


> Thanks. I have to remove the batteries, the dual 11", the gearbox and all transmission related parts (diff, half and prop shaft), build in a 11" HV, fabricate half and prop shafts, motor and diff mounts. It will take at least two weeks.
> 
> I like EVs. You build them half a year, then you drive it one day and then you rebuild it again half a year, then you race it for two days and rebuild it again


Don't know what you mean  We built our car in a year and raced it for two straight seasons until we finally sparked one motor and popped one battery. Then with the prodding at spear point by JIm Husted we had the motor back together in 2 weeks. BTW the way you built that pack is just about exactly what I was getting ready to do  We'll run one more year on this old tired lead pack until next year 

Oh yeah you didn't comment on Gooch's prediction of those motors taking out your transmisssion for you  Remember those two little 8" motors John is running breaks stock drive shafts in a Ford 9" rear end. Not wanting to recreate his experiment I went straight to a fully race built heavy duty Ford 9" with Detroit lockers and 35 spline axles. Oddly enough these are the same size axles in my 1-Ton truck  We're putting near 1500 ft lbs into that one rear end. You are likely slamming 2000 ft lbs (assuming you can even hook 'em up) into "each" of your two drive lines  Whatever you do, make them beefy.

Mike


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

We again took the whole car apart...







































Bi-moto EV rally edition 











Then I took it to the interior shop...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

They made a new carpet and warped all other parts in alcantara (didn't want leather - it's supposed to be a "green" car after all). When the carpet was done I took the car back so we could work on the mechanics while the interior parts are being finished.
































The custom built 11" HV motor installed...



















I have plenty of space there, two more "would" fit in. Hmmm, I have some new ideas 

I have a drift race this weekend and I'll at least try to make a nice run but I doubt I can make anything since the car is very heavy on the back and has almost nothing under the hood. This setup is good for drag racing but not ideal for drifting. When I think about it, this is the worst weight distribution for drifting. Sure, I could fit one batt pack under the hood but I don't have the time for it now.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> They made a new carpet and warped all other parts in alcantara (didn't want leather - it's supposed to be a "green" car after all).


How is creating more polyester and polyurethane more "green" than using entirely biodegradable and renewable leather?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Darxus said:


> How is creating more polyester and polyurethane more "green" than using entirely biodegradable and renewable leather?


Because animals get killed because of their skin...?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Darxus said:


> How is creating more polyester and polyurethane more "green" than using entirely biodegradable and renewable leather?


http://www.designboom.com/weblog/ca...tainable-italian-made-industrial-product.html

_it can be done!
eco-friendly industrial production.
Alcantara® is the first completely sustainable italian-made industrial product. 
as part of their sustainability project the company has attained 'carbon neutral' certification relative 
to the entire production process of the Alcantara® material. 
this means zero carbon dioxide emissions. the relevance of this result is further brought by the 
voluntary nature of the entire operation. in fact, compensating for all carbon dioxide emissions 
is not a legal obligation but rather a specific company objective.
this process involved reviewing the company business model in the context of sustainable 
development, with all departments committed to continuously reducing the company’s emissions._


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Darxus said:


> How is creating more polyester and polyurethane more "green" than using entirely biodegradable and renewable leather?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather

*Environmental impact*

_Leather is a product with high environmental impact, most notably due to:_

_the __impact of livestock_
_the heavy use of polluting chemicals in the tanning process _
_air pollution due to the transformation process (__hydrogen sulfide__ during dehairing and __ammonia__ during deliming, solvent vapors). _
_One tonne of hide or skin generally leads to the production of 20 to 80 m3 of turbid and foul-smelling wastewater including chromium levels of 100–400 mg/L, sulfide levels of 200–800 mg/L and high levels of fat and other solid wastes, as well as notable pathogen contamination. Pesticides are also often added for hide conservation during transport. With solid wastes representing up to 70% of the wet weight of the original hides, the tanning process comes at a considerable strain on water treatment installations.[3]_


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Wow, you threw that out real quick, Bowser

I used to like leather too but I'm not such a fan anymore. If nothing else, going with a synthetic upholstery allows more flexibility because you can get it by the roll and are not limited by the size and shape of the animal it came off of. Would be a huge hassle to try and cover an entire floor with the stuff.

Crowdriver......

Am I correct that you are putting even BIGGER motors in there now?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Wow, you threw that out real quick, Bowser
> 
> I used to like leather too but I'm not such a fan anymore. If nothing else, going with a synthetic upholstery allows more flexibility because you can get it by the roll and are not limited by the size and shape of the animal it came off of. Would be a huge hassle to try and cover an entire floor with the stuff.
> 
> ...


haha, just timing i guess, after i read the comment i was rather interested about whether or not they make luxury/refined plastic based fabrics (Alcantata)from recycled plastics...I dont think thats the case, however at least the factory is carbon neutral.

I think Crodriver was using siamese kostov-11s before so he wouldnt be moving up in size, just stronger built motors, with advance the Warp11HV should be safe to rev to 9000rpm @ 336V...might not have that much power up that high but it will allow for a wider/broader power curve...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

This motors where not intended for the BMW. They are not made for a siamese setup, i.e. they have a shaft on only one side. 

I would have purchase a trans warp and install in between the prop shaft and one of these motor... I'll have to see what I can do with "only" one motor but somehow it looks too tiny in the car to have enough power for 300+ hp


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> This motors where not intended for the BMW. They are not made for a siamese setup, i.e. they have a shaft on only one side.
> 
> I would have purchase a trans warp and install in between the prop shaft and one of these motor... I'll have to see what I can do with "only" one motor but somehow it looks too tiny in the car to have enough power for 300+ hp


You are probably right, 300hp (224kw) is quite a lot out of a single 11" motor...however you have a great setup and it would be very interesting to see how much power you could extract from a single Warp11_HV...

1500A @ 150V = 225kw
1000A @ 224V = 224kw
667A @ 336V = 224kw


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Maybe it can take it... I think no one ever tried it. Someone has to be the first 





















Motor mounts finished



















Tomorrow I have to build in the batteries, make the wiring, install the interior and the roll bar etc.

We won't have enough time to:

- build in the new diff 
- finalize the suspension
- install the new braking system

So VERY bad prepositions for drifting with all that weight on the back and almost nothing under the hood 

If I just had a few more days...


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Cro, I'm really sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what the 11" HV can really put out, you really are a pioneer! Good luck! 
Maybe I missed it, are you using the same controller or something else?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks Karlos!



karlos said:


> Maybe I missed it, are you using the same controller or something else?


Yes, still the same...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> If I just had a few more days...


Should have spent less time polishing the chrome


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Should have spent less time polishing the chrome


What! And miss out out on all those 'reflection' pictures of Cro's attractive admirers leaning over to look at the motors?
Cro, how is your BMS system working out so far?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The end copper bars where too thin to carry the heavy cables so I replaced them with stronger ones.










Old vs. new










My hands where shaking because I know that I would be dust with one wrong move...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Custom prop-shaft










Rear motor mount



















Battery skateboard 





































While looking at this I had an idea...










Single-moto-ultra-light-drift-edition-EV 

Voltage = RPM
Current = Torque

I don't need high RPMs for the drift race so I will try it without the rear sub pack. I have now 205V nominal. I hope that will be enough for some nice drifts...

The car is very light now. Only one motor, 1/3 batteries less, no gearbox etc... And the best thing: all the mass in between the wheels. I'm very interested how it will go now.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Interior


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Have you considered making a battery box that drops into the floor of the car below the trunk? I did this with my saturn and was able to get a pretty low center of gravity and excellent weight distribution. The car is pretty heavy at ~2850lbs but it handles pretty well in spite of the horrible tires. That would imply cutting into the car however, so I don't know if you are ready to do that.

Looks like you had some fun getting that battery in there.
Do you know about how much that battery weighs?
Maybe a long reach folding engine hoist could help with intstalling and removing it if this becomes a habbit. I've lost count of how many times I've torn down and re assembled my car


----------



## Scooby (Oct 22, 2009)

That is actually my first post at DIYElectricCar, i follow this Forum/community nearly daily, nice work out there. 

I'm from Germany and when I finished my studies, I want to convert my Subaru Impreza '96 Limo (just the 1,6L sucker, 1.150 kg) 





>


@crodriver. In your last post were a few nice shots of your Battery Pack.
could you please give us some Information about your BMS, it seem's that you control with one MiniBMS-module?? 
around 8 Cells in Parallel, if i got that right.

Could you please give alittle more information about it! 

Thanks alot. 
Scoob

Keep up the excellent work!! 

When you are in SouthGermany ^^ 
give me just a call  
I'm from around Stuttgart.


----------



## unrlmth (Feb 14, 2010)

Oh and whats up with only having one smiley.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Scooby, I'm often in Germany. The IAA in Frankfurt is a must see for me and I visit my friends and relatives since I used to live there for 10 years 

Guys, here is a little video from the race I had last weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-5GNi7TjV4







Just a little teaser, I'll make a report when I find time...


----------



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Scooby, I'm often in Germany. The IAA in Frankfurt is a must see for me and I visit my friends and relatives since I used to live there for 10 years
> 
> Guys, here is a little video from the race I had last weekend
> 
> ...


Hi Mate!

Why don't you try and make a plan with evnectic to make you one of their most powerful controller for you. Maybe their controller will be better than Zilla.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

albano said:


> Hi Mate!
> 
> Why don't you try and make a plan with evnectic to make you one of their most powerful controller for you. Maybe their controller will be better than Zilla.


Tesseract, Qer, are you listening? 

Back on topic: 

We modified lots of little things in our car

Reversing contactors










The interior is finally in a good condition (all in alcantara)



















The car was the firs EV that attended to a drift race! (at least the only one I'm aware of)



















It's a great feeling to drift with an EV (instantaneous power, no clutching needed etc.), but it's not so good if there is another car close to you - you can't hear your own car so I didn't had a feeling for the motor and wheel RPM. I can't watch the RPM meter in the dash while drifting... After a few runs the differential fell apart so we where out of the race :-(

We fixed the car and went to the next event...



















The differential broke again before we had a chance to make a good result. (14,6 sec. on a wet track)

We fixed it at the track but the event was almost over until then.

A data-log from the race:











Then we went to hit the dyno with the car. 

Just a little video from inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APtnKGQGr0

I gave it 8 tries and ramped up the current each time.The last run was with the 1600 Amp limit. That gave 500 hp AT THE WHEELS! The efficiency doesn't seem to suck that much after all. The motor casing temp. was 48 C after eight runs. One hour later the temp. was 46 C.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Some of us didn't trust the result so we also tested my 507 hp BMW M6.
The dyno measured 420 hp at the wheels. So the values for the EV where
accurate.



















We have recorded the test with several
cameras, we'll make a proper video when I find time for it.

The RPM values of the dyno are doubled. (no idea why).










One color is one run. The upper line of the same color is the "shaft power", the other line is wheel power.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool  Any video of the drifting? Sounds as if you need to beef up your dif before you even think about a more powerful controller


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Cool  Any video of the drifting?


Yes, working on it...



JRP3 said:


> Sounds as if you need to beef up your dif before you even think about a more powerful controller


We have a custom diff that we're building in the car this week. It sits in the shop for months... There are always some other problems that need to be solved first...


----------



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hey Crodriver ,

That really cool, hope you are enjoying the fun of electric. We have one of the fastest street legal lexus with supra 2jz motor on and it a 811Kw 1000 Hp on the wheel here in South Africa. This car was built by my brother and myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvvX3zFi_EU

http://www.youtube.com/user/lexustrix#p/a/u/2/su_R3KCCfc0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrSj88aBsW4

But I'm tired of noise and right now I'm busy building an electric go cart.

I want to show the guys here in SA that there is a lot of fun building an electric drag racing vehicle.

Albano


----------



## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Cro, 

I'll say it again ... you are my hero ...


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Cro

What is the configuration of the 500hp on the dino?

Dual Warp HV? Dual Kostov? Single Warp HV? And about voltage and ratio. Transmission or not?

You are in the good way and I need to do similare convertion with a 190 Mercedes after my DRZ conversion and some detail will be really appreciate.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

280z1975 said:


> Cro,
> 
> I'll say it again ... you are my hero ...


LOL thanks 



Yabert said:


> Hi Cro
> 
> What is the configuration of the 500hp on the dino?
> 
> ...


Single custom 11" based on a HV. I'm not so sure if a HV is a good option for the highest power. Maybe a standard 11", modified by Jim would be better. I have the feeling like the batteries run out of voltage and that's why the power drops above 4.500 motor RPM.

We had some problems with the pack at the last race so we removed 12 series strings of cells. Now we have 98 cells in series. So the voltage is 330V with no load. It drops to 260V at the highest load.

The current diff has a 3,8 ratio, the new one will be a little shorter - 4,1. No gearbox. No clutch.

Btw. Where can I find more info about the bike? Looks good!


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Wooooo! Single 11" give 500 HP!!...
Nice to know. Thanks for the specs.

DRZ électrique: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/suzuki-drz-sm-2005-electric-48239.html


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is so amazing.

I can now say that we have one thing in common, your BMW and my tractor both blew a diff while playing.

And for both of us it was the one bit we didn't make.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> LOL thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


500hp (372kw) from a single built 11" motor , any motor damage?

330V nominal (260A w/ sag) and 1600A (Battery Amp limit? or motor Amp limit?)


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> The RPM values of the dyno are doubled. (no idea why).
> 
> 
> 
> One color is one run. The upper line of the same color is the "shaft power", the other line is wheel power.


Do you have data logs to match these dyno tests?
Gerhard


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hold up, you mention that the Dyno was reporting twice the RPM than reality. Are you sure the dyno isnt also calculating HP from torqueXrpm and doubling the HP figure? You are showing around 550hp, which would mean 100% efficiency from a 260v x 1600A setup, seems suspicious from my own experience of EV's on a dyno (we usually see the same HP at rear wheel as we see KW going in, especially once you get past the sweet spot current wise).


Steve


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Hold up, you mention that the Dyno was reporting twice the RPM than reality. Are you sure the dyno isnt also calculating HP from torqueXrpm and doubling the HP figure? You are showing around 550hp, which would mean 100% efficiency from a 260v x 1600A setup, seems suspicious from my own experience of EV's on a dyno (we usually see the same HP at rear wheel as we see KW going in, especially once you get past the sweet spot current wise).
> 
> 
> Steve


Yes, something is wrong there... That's why we measured the power of the BMW M6. It has a claimed power of 507 hp and the dyno measured 420 whp.

The guy who owns the dyno told us that RPM has nothing to do with the hp calculation. It calculates the hp knowing the weight of the rotating mass and measures the time the car needs to accelerate the cylinders. 

We'll try another dyno next week (with the new differential).


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

CroDriver that's awesome you are getting hard dyno numbers. Do you have any numbers for how long your were drawing high currents? If it's not too much trouble a Zilla log during a dyno would be awesome, thanks.

I don't remember, apologies if it was already posted, what are you doing for cooling on your motor? I assume you are using more than the internal fan.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> ...from my own experience of EV's on a dyno (we usually see the same HP at rear wheel as we see KW going in, especially once you get past the sweet spot current wise).
> 
> Steve


Hi Steve,
Off topic for this thread, but do you have dyno data and zilla (or other) data dumps for a Warp9 equipped EV? I'd like to confirm my model for the Electrabishi partially discussed on another thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/dc-motor-theory-and-model-39931.html Maybe reply there.
Thanks, Gerhard


----------



## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Gerhard,

Sorry no, though I am fortionate enough to have almost unlimited dyno access, I work mostly with motorcycles and use PM motors not series.
Proper data is hard to come by from people willing to push motors to the limits, I'm glad Crodriver is making the effort for us all and look forward to more soon!

Steve


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

CroDriver said:


> We'll try another dyno next week (with the new differential).


LOL, at this rate there won't be any left

Seriously, great job with the car so far. You are probably ahead of any other comparable EV on the planet.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I don't remember, apologies if it was already posted, what are you doing for cooling on your motor? I assume you are using more than the internal fan.


External fan



















Works great! And it sounds much better than the Kostov with internal fan (much quieter). 



Jozzer said:


> I'm glad Crodriver is making the effort for us all and look forward to more soon!
> 
> Steve


No problem. That's what forums are for. I have some raw data that Jeffrey from EVnetics (Tesseract) usually gave to someone to make those nice looking graphs. He's a busy guy so I won't bother him with that. We have our own but they don't look so fancy as Jeff's  I'll upload them when I'll be at my other PC.



david85 said:


> LOL, at this rate there won't be any left


This one is based on a BMW E92 M3 differential that has to sustain the torque of a high reving ///M engine with a double clutch gearbox so I hope it will be strong enough for the electric torque.



david85 said:


> Seriously, great job with the car so far. You are probably ahead of any other comparable EV on the planet.


Well, that's the goal  Thanks.

We can't just talk about numbers. Some eye candy for you guys  (OK, I know that they're not the best looking girls you've ever seen but there are not many girls at such events)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

And I found a new girlfriend at the race! 










LOL


----------



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hey Cro,
Can you send me the red hair to me in South Africa,


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> And I found a new girlfriend at the race!


EV grin?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

albano said:


> Hey Cro,
> Can you send me the red hair to me in South Africa,


Looks like the blond would be easier to ship


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> No problem. That's what forums are for. I have some raw data that Jeffrey from EVnetics (Tesseract) usually gave to someone to make those nice looking graphs. He's a busy guy so I won't bother him with that. We have our own but they don't look so fancy as Jeff's  I'll upload them when I'll be at my other PC.


Qer has some script that automatically processes log file data into pretty graphs. Technically it's only supposed to be used on our Soliton1 data, but he makes an exception for Z2K runs and/or the Jesus Motor (aka the WarP11HV  ). See attached.



CroDriver said:


> Some eye candy for you guys  (OK, I know that they're not the best looking girls you've ever seen but there are not many girls at such events)


Bah... this one is adorable, in that evil and sinister man-eating kind of way...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I mut be really wierd, I find these images far more interesting then the ones with people in.
But that's Asperger's for you.



CroDriver said:


> External fan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Qer has some script that automatically processes log file data into pretty graphs. Technically it's only supposed to be used on our Soliton1 data, but he makes an exception for Z2K runs and/or the Jesus Motor (aka the WarP11HV  ). See attached.


wow

Graph shows 270V x 1380A @ ~4500rpm!

372.5kw (500hp)

I'm imagining what Big Sol + Warp 1*3*HV would look like...


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I mut be really wierd, I find these images far more interesting then the ones with people in.
> But that's Asperger's for you.


Asperger's or no asperger's, I'll still take that as a compliment. 



Bowser330 said:


> I'm imagining what Big Sol + Warp 1*3*HV would look like...


Less erratic.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Am I blind or does the kW graph really go up to 440kW (598 hp)?


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Am I blind or does the kW graph really go up to 440kW (598 hp)?


ELECTRICAL power, yes. Then there's losses in the motor, in the transmission, friction between tires and pavement, rusty, slightly stuck brakes etc...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Qer said:


> ELECTRICAL power, yes. Then there's losses in the motor, in the transmission, friction between tires and pavement, rusty, slightly stuck brakes etc...


Yeah, I know but we always thought that the maximum was 360 kW electrically.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Yeah, I know but we always thought that the maximum was 360 kW electrically.


If you are referring to what I told you in an earlier e-mails, that was from a different log file. I hadn't yet looked at your last dyno log then.

Speaking of, you can learn a lot from that graph. One is that the Zilla really chokes on regulating current at the limit. Two is that because of the high pack voltage the Zilla cuts back on the 2kA level pretty quickly. Three is that you still need more voltage anyway because you spend most of the dyno run at 100% duty cycle (which the Zilla does, indeed, report as 160).

Still, close to 600hp... I guess it really is the Jesus Motor.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> If you are referring to what I told you in an earlier e-mails, that was from a different log file. I hadn't yet looked at your last dyno log then.
> 
> Speaking of, you can learn a lot from that graph. One is that the Zilla really chokes on regulating current at the limit. Two is that because of the high pack voltage the Zilla cuts back on the 2kA level pretty quickly. Three is that you still need more voltage anyway because you spend most of the dyno run at 100% duty cycle (which the Zilla does, indeed, report as 160).
> 
> Still, close to 600hp... I guess it really is the Jesus Motor.


Will these issues be improved upon on the Big Sol?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Will these issues be improved upon on the Big Sol?


Well, we can't do much about running out of battery voltage, of course, but the current regulation in the Soliton1 is already about 100x better than the Zilla (+/-2A vs. +/-200A).

We reduce maximum output current at higher input voltages, too, but we start at ~310V rather than 200V. The Big Sol will use 1200V IGBT modules, though, so we should be able to full current up to somewhere between 400V and 500V. Big Sol really will be a megawatt controller.

And it looks like two WarP11HVs will be able to take its full brunt... at least for 1 second, anyway...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Still, close to 600hp... I guess it really is the Jesus Motor.


Attribute it to the chrome plated frame


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Well, we can't do much about running out of battery voltage, of course, but the current regulation in the Soliton1 is already about 100x better than the Zilla (+/-2A vs. +/-200A).
> 
> We reduce maximum output current at higher input voltages, too, but we start at ~310V rather than 200V. The Big Sol will use 1200V IGBT modules, though, so we should be able to full current up to somewhere between 400V and 500V. Big Sol really will be a megawatt controller.
> 
> And it looks like two WarP11HVs will be able to take its full brunt... at least for 1 second, anyway...


Well after the Big Sol is complete, I think you guys might have to get into the rear differential game..

I am not sure there are many diffs out there that can handle the torque of two 11" motors @ 2000A @ 1rpm...haha...jk


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The Big Sol will use 1200V IGBT modules, though, so we should be able to full current up to somewhere between 400V and 500V.


I was just about to purchase another controller (yeah, the 5th ) but this sounds just so damn good... I know I have asked that a few times earlier, but maybe something changed... When will the first units be available? I want it, and I want it now!


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> When will the first units be available? I want it, and I want it now!


The prospect has me tempted as well....good way to start a project, start with a great controller and build everything else around it!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Well after the Big Sol is complete, I think you guys might have to get into the rear differential game..
> 
> I am not sure there are many diffs out there that can handle the torque of two 11" motors @ 2000A @ 1rpm...haha...jk


The only issue there is how much money you have. Top Fuel dragsters put out a 1000hp per cylinder. Not sure of the torque figures but on nitro, it ain't a little number. There are 35 spline axles for the more common Ford 9" style rear end, and if you manage to break that you step up into the big boy toys. If a person is spending enough for Big Sol and motor(s) that can survive wired to it they shouldn't have a problem spending $5-10K for a rear end to match.

Plus, breaking stuff is fun! 

Big kudos Cro on the big numbers!


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Tess & Qer
Copyright 'Big Sol" tonight, if you have not yet.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I was just about to purchase another controller (yeah, the 5th ) but this sounds just so damn good... I know I have asked that a few times earlier, but maybe something changed... When will the first units be available? I want it, and I want it now!


No real schedule for Big Sol, so if you are in a hurry better go get yourself another dinosaur... if you can find one, that is. Says "Sold Out" on Otmar's website (if true then he sold those ten Z2Ks he had faster than I expected).


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> No real schedule for Big Sol, so if you are in a hurry better go get yourself another dinosaur... if you can find one, that is. Says "Sold Out" on Otmar's website (if true then he sold those ten Z2Ks he had faster than I expected).


Can you ballpark it for us?

Are we talking less than 1 year away or more than 1 year away?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Can you ballpark it for us?
> 
> Are we talking less than 1 year away or more than 1 year away?



Sure, we're working with toddshotrods on this and aiming to get a prototype into his hot little hands before the end of the year. Not sure when, or even IF, the MW controller will be made generally available, though. My personal inclination is to restrict the sale to only those people who are actually going to race with it because 90% of the value of the MW controller - to us, that is - is promotional.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Just wanted to point something out...

It appears as though that even with the Soliton-1 (Race 1400A)...500hp is capable @ 4500rpm!!!...with 270V sagged...I think it was mentioned that Crodriver was using Headway cells (8AH) and was at 330V nominal... (see attached), depending on how many cells were used in parallel which i think were 9, thats 72AH, to get 1400A from the pack the headways were running @ 19.44C !! yikes!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Just wanted to point something out...
> 
> It appears as though that even with the Soliton-1 (Race 1400A)...500hp is capable @ 4500rpm!!!...with 270V sagged...I think it was mentioned that Crodriver was using Headway cells (8AH) and was at 330V nominal... (see attached), depending on how many cells were used in parallel which i think were 9, thats 72AH, to get 1400A from the pack the headways were running @ 19.44C !! yikes!


Looking at these two plots, 










and 










There seems to be about a 2 to 1 factor in power at 4500 RPM.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Looking at these two plots...
> There seems to be about a 2 to 1 factor in power at 4500 RPM.


Not seeing any plots over here... 

Anyway, couple things about this... Otmar said here that the RPM data from the Zilla is delayed by 0.5 seconds. I can't imagine how that could happen, but if it's true then the RPM data show in the graph we made of the DAQ data from Cro's dyno run is more or less useless.

As for the RPM reported by the dyno, Cro mentioned that it was doubled for some reason. The Zilla did deliver - at least according to its DAQ data - a peak of 600hp to the motor, though.

I'm just interpreting the data I was given here... just wanted to point that out in case anyone got argumentative


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Just wanted to point something out...
> 
> It appears as though that even with the Soliton-1 (Race 1400A)...500hp is capable @ 4500rpm!!!...with 270V sagged...I think it was mentioned that Crodriver was using Headway cells (8AH) and was at 330V nominal... (see attached), depending on how many cells were used in parallel which i think were 9, thats 72AH, to get 1400A from the pack the headways were running @ 19.44C !! yikes!


 
Looking at these two plots,


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Not seeing any plots over here...


Yeah Tess,

I always did have trouble inserting things. You know how that goes. Anyway, hopefully, they are attached to the later post 

major


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

major said:


> Looking at these two plots,


Wait.... so the LEFT plot (the one i marked up) was the one that Qer/Tess provided to Cro after they processed some data that Cro provided too them...Thanks again guys!

The RIGHT plot was, if i recall, the plot from Cro's drift run, which is not apples to apples to the dyno run where the 600hp was acheived....

I don't know, just my observation..


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Wait.... so the LEFT plot (the one i marked up) was the one that Qer/Tess provided to Cro after they processed some data that Cro provided too them...Thanks again guys!
> 
> The RIGHT plot was, if i recall, the plot from Cro's drift run, which is not apples to apples to the dyno run where the 600hp was acheived....
> 
> I don't know, just my observation..


Same with me, just observation. But looked like to me Cro had it floored and it hit 4500 RPM, so why wouldn't the fruit be of the same color


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Same with me, just observation. But looked like to me Cro had it floored and it hit 4500 RPM, so why wouldn't the fruit be of the same color


I don't know about the color of the fruit, but I think that, yes, the more jagged graph is from one of his drifting runs.

As for the RPM being the same... is the amperage the same, too? If so THEN we have a bit of an issue, no? Probably the RPM error Otmar described in the previously referenced NEDRA post.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I don't know about the color of the fruit, but I think that, yes, the more jagged graph is from one of his drifting runs.


Yeah, I think it was. Maybe he had the current limit turned down  But that doesn't seem like his style


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Wait.... so the LEFT plot (the one i marked up) was the one that Qer/Tess provided to Cro after they processed some data that Cro provided too them...Thanks again guys!
> 
> The RIGHT plot was, if i recall, the plot from Cro's drift run, which is not apples to apples to the dyno run where the 600hp was acheived....


Fyi, both plots are generated by me. That's why they look so alike...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Yeah, I think it was. Maybe he had the current limit turned down  But that doesn't seem like his style


I had to re-read our e-mail exchange because I couldn't remember the details, but by doing a sort on the log file used to create the above drifting/racing plot the highest battery current was 968A and peak power was 298kW.

Cro did ask why he wasn't able to pull 2000A; I couldn't tell him exactly but I suggested he review all of the limiting parameters the Zilla lets you configure and see if one of them was coming into play. My guess was motor voltage limit as it is easy to forget.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

This log was recorded on a drag race










I actually believe that it was this particular run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-5GNi7TjV4

You can see how the wheels spin at the start - matches the rising and falling RPMs on the graph.

The other graph was recorded on the dyno. I don't believe that the controller setup was a lot different. The motor RPM was climbing a lot more quickly at the dyno, the run was much shorter and at a higher RPM than the drag race - maybe that's the reason for the higher power. I don't believe it's battery related since we had a higher voltage battery at the drag race (we had to remove 12 series strings after it). 

Both graphs where created by Qer (thanks a lot!!).

I'm not so sure what to do now... This setup is really good, I would have to make a lot of changes to get more power. I can add one more motor but that wouldn't help much. I'm not a fan of paralleled motors (remember my fried Kostovs?) and I don't have enough voltage for two of them in series. A 600V controller would be perfect for me - two of these motors in series with more cells for a 600V battery pack. That would be a killer. A pity that I have a old and stinky BMW, not a shiny hot-rod 

(Just kidding, NHF)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

And one thing that is VERY interesting... We compared the dyno data with the controller logs to calculate the efficiency. It turns out that the motor is 80-90% efficient at high RPMs!! (high voltage, low current)










OK, some don't believe that those dyno numbers are accurate so we'll test it again. But IF the dyno worked properly (I believe it did since it measured 420 whp for the BMW M6) this is a great result and a BIG BIG win for DC technology.

EDIT: Displayed is a run with a lower current/power setup. We're not so sure which log relates to which dyno run because they look very similar except this one (long flat power graph because the controller reached the current limit and stayed there). I forgot to mark the logs so they got messed up. I'll be more careful next time...


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats pretty typical for most brushed motors actually. Generally they peak above 85%. I don't see why that efficiency couldn't be found at higher power settings as long as you don't saturate the iron.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I...A 600V controller would be perfect for me - two of these motors in series with more cells for a 600V battery pack.


It's like deja vu all over again for me... I just explained why pushing the voltage rating higher is so difficult in an e-mail to Todd.

If you've ever noticed how a Blackberry or cellphone interferes with a TV that is close by then you have seen an example of radiated noise getting into the electronics and f'ing things up. Now imagine a source of noise that is 10^5 times more powerful, and even worse is that it is only a few centimeters away. That's a motor controller for you. There are two types of noise, btw: one is proportional to voltage ("Blackberry-like") and the other is proportional to current (umm... power line hum is the best common example I can think of). The higher the voltage the more like a radio transmitter a controller becomes, in other words.



CroDriver said:


> A pity that I have a old and stinky BMW, not a shiny hot-rod
> 
> (Just kidding, NHF)


Nah, has nothing to do with your BMW or what you are doing with it. The big problem is that you are in Europe and that makes beta testing difficult. We'd simply overwhelmingly prefer to work with people as close to us as possible. Even Todd is a bit farther away than I'd like for the purposes of evaluating a controller that is several times more powerful than the Soliton1.

Secondly, Todd doesn't need a controller _right now_. His schedule and our lack of one -  - seem to be meshing together well, in other words. You are doing good work promoting EVs and as much as I'd like you to buy our stuff I'd rather you keep doing what you do which might inspire others to do something similar. Yeah, I know that sounds like a load of crap but at least in my case it really is true. Well, I also want you to continue to enjoy the best that the dinosaur offers, such as its arcane serial interface, tendency to fault in the middle of a race, etc... Sooner or later you will come to your senses


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...just explained... in an e-mail to Todd... how a Blackberry or cellphone interferes with a TV that is close by...


I still think it's hilarious that my TV was buzzing from my Blackberry checking my email, as I was reading that exact part of his email! I think Jeff set the whole thing up. 





Tesseract said:


> ...Even Todd is a bit farther away than I'd like for the purposes of evaluating a controller that is several times more powerful than the Soliton1...


Ya never know, that could change - you guys have beaches, bikinis, and palm trees, three of my greatest needs in life! 





Tesseract said:


> ...Secondly, Todd doesn't need a controller _right now_. His schedule and our lack of one -  - seem to be meshing together well, in other words...


That's the thing. We have the same goals for it, Big Sol seems to be in roughly the same places on our priority lists, and we have been progressing on similar timelines. It's just a win-win deal for developing something totally ridiculous, and one of those situations in life where paths happen to cross at the right time. I think they're actually moving a bit faster than I had hoped. 

You're actually a major part of the process too though Cro, because your efforts and willingness to share will help make sure the end result is off the scale. The way I see it, this is about helping to nurture and promote a tiny newborn industry - EV racing. I'd like to think of us as all being on the same team, doing our individual parts. We're really competing against the momentum of the overall automotive market and pure chance. We have to get our collective foot in the door and establish our version while the opportunity is there, or we'll be talking about how we almost made it work this time - like EVs lost to gas at the beginning of the last century. That momentum and "chance" swing very fast and if we don't make a strong showing the next great thing will knock us out of contention.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Just wanted to point something out...
> 
> It appears as though that even with the Soliton-1 (Race 1400A)...500hp is capable @ 4500rpm!!!...with 270V sagged...I!


Hi Cro, _et al_,
You might have seen my motor theory thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/dc-motor-theory-and-model-39931.html
I have applied it to Some Warp11HV measurements: 72 Volt dyno data emailed to me back in February by CroDriver. I reduced those data to a saturation curve, including the 1400 amp point noted above. The motor resistance of 27 mOhm and brush voltage of about 3 volts yields the power curves attached.
I can't get iron losses from those data, but if I can get the Zilla dumps and dyno data, I might do better and analyse your whole system.
Gerhard


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Here's our new video. Enjoy watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVB-Tszp_LY

Hi Gerhard.

Thanks for those graphs. Could you send me your mail address in my inbox please? I'll send you the logs if you want.

Btw. Admins - If you're listening... Please upgrade the vBulletin software so we can post embedded youtube clips so the forum members don't have to view the clips directly from youtube. This looks much better too. Thanks.


----------



## speedily (Mar 13, 2009)

Very nice video well done,


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice! About embedding, I'm sure I've seen some people do it here but I've never been able to make it work.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Cro,

Nice video, considering the number of direction changes during the build the car came out fantastic.

A thought on your broken drive trains. If you watch the Zombie, the Current Eliminator and other top dog drag only EVs and bikes you will see that they leave the line with only enough torque applied to move the vehicle up to the point of tire slip, no tire smoke, almost like traction control. Tire smoke is lost power (it does look good though) power you can use later in the run.

I don't know if it is just fine tuning if the hairball, additional computer inputs or just great drivers. Could be any one of them

If you start looking at torque limiting and ramping in the power slower, you might break fewer parts. 

Don't mean to critisize you efforts, just commenting from expereiance, haveing broken a few parts in my younger days. lets face it anything worth doing, is worth doing to the limit.

I love (need) your battery (or at least half of it). I'm the fool who has put a 13 inch GE onto a 1350 pound mini pulling tractor/sand dragger (for sure worth overdoing). Right now it's 72 volts, until I can afford Headways or maybe Kokums. I can only carry 250 pounds of batteries and need 350 or so volts and at least 1000 amps for 15 or so seconds. 

Since you have some real world time with Headways I might shoot you a question now and then, hope you'll answer. 

Of course you couuld just ship me half your pack and let me figure it out myself.

Keep on turning them tires, watch a couple of the videos of the Current Eliminator on some of it's record runs. You hear the contactor clack, a tire chirp and it's gone. I guessing, but they must set the controller up for the bite at each track.

Keep having fun, I love watching and remembering the good old days,
Jim


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks JRP and speedily. I've tried embedding with the Youtube function of the forum [YOUTUBE}{/YOUTUBE] (just with the correct brackets) but it doesn't work.



Jimdear2 said:


> Cro,
> 
> Nice video, considering the number of direction changes during the build the car came out fantastic.


Yes, many unexpected things happened. Thanks.



Jimdear2 said:


> A thought on your broken drive trains. If you watch the Zombie, the Current Eliminator and other top dog drag only EVs and bikes you will see that they leave the line with only enough torque applied to move the vehicle up to the point of tire slip, no tire smoke, almost like traction control. Tire smoke is lost power (it does look good though) power you can use later in the run.


Nah, I like to burn the rubber at the start, that makes all those petrol heads around the starting line jealous  I don't care about half a second more or less, at least for now. We're now upgrading the mechanical part of the car (two speed zero shift transmission and differential from scratch) so we expect better results at the next race. I expect low 12 sec or high 11.



Jimdear2 said:


> Keep having fun, I love watching and remembering the good old days,
> Jim


Thanks. I'm glad you like it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent video, Cro!

The only negative in the video is to whoever put those hairy legs in the edit!

So, when are you going to race White Zombie?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Excellent video, Cro!...


x2




Woodsmith said:


> ...The only negative in the video is to whoever put those hairy legs in the edit!...


Agreed! I've been trying to erase that image from my consciousness for the past few hours - thanks for bringing it back up Woody!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

you guys are funny...

awesome video crodriver! keep up the good work, i hope you are enjoying is as much as we are...


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Thanks JRP and speedily. I've tried embedding with the Youtube function of the forum [YOUTUBE}{/YOUTUBE] (just with the correct brackets) but it doesn't work.


Nice video right there. Did you try to use the complete url or just the last part? 






So only use the part of the url behind the =.  In this case: 

```
[MEDIA=youtube]eVB-Tszp_LY[/MEDIA]
```
So the admins do not have to make any adjustments.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just tested it, it works! thanks for the tip.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

> We're now upgrading the mechanical part of the car (two speed zero shift transmission and differential from scratch) so we expect better results at the next race.


Nice video
I'm also really interested by a 2 speed transmission without clutch coupled with a single 11'' dc motor.
I will probably start a new thread about 2 speed performance transmission soon.

So with zero shift transmission you cannot go in reverse simply with reverse the motor rotation!! It's the main principe. You probably need a third gear.
Please give us few detail about the trasnsmission you thinking use. Thanks.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

If I was going to use a two speed I would probably look at epicyclic gears. Constant meshing and shifts from either clutch packs or band brakes. Taking a section from the insides of a strong auto box would be a good starting point and you could probaby still work in a reverse gear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Taking a section from the insides of a strong auto box would be a good starting point and you could probaby still work in a reverse gear.


Umm, sounds like a Powerglide to me. All the work is done, race-proven technology and parts, lots of ratios, already available. No need to reinvent the wheel, all you need is money!  Same thing on the diff, bulletproof already exists...


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Umm, sounds like a Powerglide to me. All the work is done, race-proven technology and parts, lots of ratios, already available. No need to reinvent the wheel, all you need is money!  Same thing on the diff, bulletproof already exists...



I'm a fan of the PowerGlide too. Can take a lot of abuse.
Here is one that handles 750 HP for $1295. Two-speed, reverse, neutral, parking prawl, light weight, highly configurable. You can see on the site that all it takes is more bucks for more tolerance to increased HP

http://www.atiracing.com/products/trans/pg/176-proglide.htm


Eric


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Yes, and you can get a torque converter eliminator for them too, if you would choose to do so.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Definitely consider the PowerGlide... and Rebirth Auto makes a bad-ass adapter for it: http://rebirthauto.com/rebirthautogmpowerglideadapter.aspx


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys! 

But I would rather give that money to my excellent mechanical engineer to make that transmission than to wire the money to the US. Don't get me wrong, I'm no racist or anything but I know that this guy knows his stuff and that he'll make a great gearbox for the same or less money. I know that Americans like to buy American products. It's the same here...

Btw. Here is a photo took today with my phone. He made a 5 speed zero shift transmission for a AWD Audi RS4 Quattro with integrated torsen diff from scratch.










Jeffrey, that adapter looks great!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Put together from parts or each and every gear carved from scratch??


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Put together from parts or each and every gear carved from scratch??


Every part machined with a CNC mill and other machines (don't know the English names for them) 

I'll pick up some renderings from the CAD model and post them... He's also producing parts for World Rally Cars and other race cars...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Every part machined with a CNC mill and other machines (don't know the English names for them)
> 
> I'll pick up some renderings from the CAD model and post them... He's also producing parts for World Rally Cars and other race cars...


somebody's got the hookups...


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Gerhard.
> 
> Thanks for those graphs. Could you send me your mail address in my inbox please? I'll send you the logs if you want.


Hi Cro
I'm not ignoring you.. I've been at our cabin, out of range of running water and the internet, I'm PM-ing my email...send whatever you have related to the dyno runs.
Gerhard


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Not seeing any plots over here...
> 
> Anyway, couple things about this... Otmar said here that the RPM data from the Zilla is delayed by 0.5 seconds. I can't imagine how that could happen, but if it's true then the RPM data show in the graph we made of the DAQ data from Cro's dyno run is more or less useless.
> 
> ...


Here is a comparison of the top dyno run and my model power using the Zilla data. Looks to me that the power is real! Next, use the model to select gearing for low-end power and field weakening for the high end.
Gerhard


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

This data just further justifies the holding power of DC technology in the DIY marketplace..


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> This log was recorded on a drag race
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The blue line on this (drag race) graph shows a motor power limit of about 210kW. It appears that you had the battery current limit set to 700 amps during the drag and 1600 amps on the dyno.
The other thing that is odd about this graph that essentially nothing happens for the first second and a half after the pot goes max
....and get stickier tires
Gerhard


----------



## hildeant (Sep 12, 2010)

I am an E30 owner. I think it would make a great conversion. I would like to see your results before I tear the guts out of my 86 Cabriolet. How did you select your motor and batteries? What range are you trying to accomplish? It would be cool if you could beat the pants off a new M3.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> The other thing that is odd about this graph that essentially nothing happens for the first second and a half after the pot goes max


Yep. Check the pink line, the controller is in current limit mode by some obscure reason. There's no obvious problem (like overtemp, low voltage or whatever), still the controller keeps max current limited for about a second.

Very, very odd behaviour of the Zilla...


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Qer said:


> Yep. Check the pink line, the controller is in current limit mode by some obscure reason. There's no obvious problem (like overtemp, low voltage or whatever), still the controller keeps max current limited for about a second.
> 
> Very, very odd behaviour of the Zilla...


So,Cro...
In these runs, did the car hesitate before launch? Could you time the full torque with the timing lights?
Gerhard


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> So,Cro...
> In these runs, did the car hesitate before launch? Could you time the full torque with the timing lights?
> Gerhard


Hmm, No.

Maybe I was holding the car with the break pedal. 

I just returned from a race. The car drives just great!! The best ET was *12,176 sec.!!*

Someone recorded a run vs. a 600 hp monster BMW M3






...we'll again make a proper video later.

I won the 2nd place in the 12 sec. class. I made a stupid mistake in the final race, otherwise I would be 1st. No one could believe it  

The best thing - we had 6 runs one after another with just a couple of minutes between each - without charging. 

We'll now modifying the car again, nothing will be the same. Our own BMS, our own high power controller, our own transmission etc. We have to break into the 9 sec. class by the end of the year.

The new battery pack is 50% lighter and takes 60% less space but has more power. It will be finished within one month.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Awesome video! (Although, if that M3 paid good money for "600" hp he should get a refund!  )

What kind of batteries are you switching to? Any performance complaints with the Headways?


CroDriver said:


> ... I just returned from a race. The car drives just great!! The best ET was *12,176 sec.!!*
> 
> Someone recorded a run vs. a 600 hp monster BMW M3 ...


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hmm, No.
> 
> Maybe I was holding the car with the break pedal.
> 
> I just returned from a race. The car drives just great!! The best ET was *12,176 sec.!!*


Hmm...I guess that would be about 105 MPH? Congratulations.
Not to be a pest, but is there a Zilla log to match?
Gerhard


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Hmm, No.
> 
> Maybe I was holding the car with the break pedal.
> 
> ...


9 second car in only 4 months!!?? wow, that sounds very challenging...

Are you planning to run the 11's, 10's & 9's with the single 11" built motor? or something larger? Built 13"?

Can you share any of the specs on the custom controller and batteries you'll be building/using?


----------



## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Very good job! I just registered to congradulate you!

*I CANT WAIT TO SEE YOU IN THE NEW FAST AND THE FURIOUS MOVIES GOING AGAINS VIN DIESEL*

you have the nicest E.V that Ive seen!

I decided to start an E.V I got to say - I wish I had your bank account 

Looking at your dyno tests, you shown that electric motor could be really efficent under a certain rpm. When I build my E.V I want it to consume very very little Amps to travel long distance (100km-150km) a day. I will eventually need to focus on finding the right motor and controler because I cannot afford making the mistakes you've made. Nothing mean by the way just that it made me laugh when you said I will need to change the tranny for the 3rd time  

keep posting pics with chicks sho em what electric is made of 

Good job again! and I cant wait to see your new project


I might need you for my conversion later


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Vin Diesel : Wut you got under da hod kid?
Cro : A lot more than you could imagin *With attitude*
Vin Diesel : Listen kid, your BMW cannot beat my 400hp RX7
Cro : how about a 1/8 - 1/4 mile against my 378kw or 600 hp bmw
Vin Diesel :


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Pirape said:


> Vin Diesel : Wut you got under da hod kid?
> Cro : A lot more than you could imagin *With attitude*
> Vin Diesel : Listen kid, your BMW cannot beat my 400hp RX7
> Cro : how about 11", maybe 13". Can you handle that?
> Vin Diesel :


I adjusted your post for you Pirape.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Awesome video! (Although, if that M3 paid good money for "600" hp he should get a refund!  )


I doubt that 600 hp claim too... You know what kind of guys racers are... It's all about having the biggest  No, seriously, he had a slipping clutch which slowed him down.



DavidDymaxion said:


> What kind of batteries are you switching to? Any performance complaints with the Headways?












No, the Headways work great. But it can always be a little better...




GerhardRP said:


> Hmm...I guess that would be about 105 MPH? Congratulations.
> Not to be a pest, but is there a Zilla log to match?
> Gerhard


It where 180 km/h. That's 112,5 mph.



Bowser330 said:


> 9 second car in only 4 months!!?? wow, that sounds very challenging...
> 
> Are you planning to run the 11's, 10's & 9's with the single 11" built motor? or something larger? Built 13"?


We'll reduce the weight by 150-200 kg and increase the power by ~ 20%. We're also building a 2 speed zero shift transmission. There will be a lot of small modifications to make the car faster. I think that this will be enough for low 10 sec. or high 9 sec. ETs. We have another motor and battery configuration in the pipeline for ~ 60% more power if the other modifications won't be enough...




Pirape said:


> Very good job! I just registered to congradulate you!
> 
> *I CANT WAIT TO SEE YOU IN THE NEW FAST AND THE FURIOUS MOVIES GOING AGAINS VIN DIESEL*
> 
> you have the nicest E.V that Ive seen!


Thanks a lot! 



Pirape said:


> Vin Diesel : Wut you got under da hod kid?
> Cro : A lot more than you could imagin *With attitude*
> Vin Diesel : Listen kid, your BMW cannot beat my 400hp RX7
> Cro : how about a 1/8 - 1/4 mile against my 378kw or 600 hp bmw
> Vin Diesel :





Woodsmith said:


> I adjusted your post for you Pirape.


LOL, you're funny guys.  Thanks to all!


----------



## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


>


Oh man. I know what those are. Arent those cell_man's A123 20AH pouches? What configuration are they in?


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Hey Crodriver, if you want to push 9 seconds or low 10 Is beating the White Zombie a motivation?


----------



## unrlmth (Feb 14, 2010)

Just wondering, but do you know what the weight distribution is?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Pirape said:


> Hey Crodriver, if you want to push 9 seconds or low 10 Is beating the White Zombie a motivation?


Beating the WZ is a motivation but not the main goal... Of course, it would be nice to be the fastest street legal EV on the planet...



unrlmth said:


> Just wondering, but do you know what the weight distribution is?


We have measured this just a few days ago. I'll post some pics of that later

Here's our new video






I think that it's way too cool


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## unrlmth (Feb 14, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> Beating the WZ is a motivation but not the main goal... Of course, it would be nice to be the fastest street legal EV on the planet...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll be looking forward to it. Awesome video BTW, car looks like its a blast to drive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I think that it's way too cool


Agree! Very inspiring to us armchair racers.


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Beating the WZ is a motivation but not the main goal... Of course, it would be nice to be the fastest street legal EV on the planet...
> 
> I think that it's way too cool


Dreams are becoming a reality, Oustanding !!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Great video but what happened at 3:45?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

another awesome video...12.1, almost into the 11's!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

david85 said:


> Great video but what happened at 3:45?


Sparking (or "zorching") motor. We took it apart. The rotor touched the brush holder because of the vibrating prop shaft (working on this...). 



















We will machine the end cap a little bit to remove 2 or 3 mm height of the aluminum end cap. That would move the brush holder 2-3 mm away from the comm. That's fine because the brush isn't touching the comm with it's whole surface. 



Bowser330 said:


> another awesome video...12.1, almost into the 11's!


Thanks!

My reaction time was 0,3 so technically, it is already in the 11's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...My reaction time was 0,3 so technically, it is already in the 11's.


The ET should be _your_ time, from when you first move to when you cross the finish line, so improving your RT shouldn't change the ET. That's why a car/driver can have a faster ET, but get beat to the finish line by a slower car/driver - he got beat bad off the line. His ET is low because he rans his [email protected]!!$ off trying to catch up, from when he moved to when he got there, but the other guy started sooner and got there first.

If you were spinning the tires off the line, it's very likely that you could have picked up a couple tenths there and been in the 11s. This is all really just technical mumbo-jumbo because it's obvious you have an 11-sec car. A little tuning and fiddling and you'll be there. It looks to me like to have enough there with the current setup to dip at least midway into the 11s.


----------



## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Just like that, why didnt you go with the BLDC motors?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> The ET should be _your_ time, from when you first move to when you cross the finish line, so improving your RT shouldn't change the ET. That's why a car/driver can have a faster ET, but get beat to the finish line by a slower car/driver - he got beat bad off the line. His ET is low because he rans his [email protected]!!$ off trying to catch up, from when he moved to when he got there, but the other guy started sooner and got there first.
> 
> If you were spinning the tires off the line, it's very likely that you could have picked up a couple tenths there and been in the 11s. This is all really just technical mumbo-jumbo because it's obvious you have an 11-sec car. A little tuning and fiddling and you'll be there. It looks to me like to have enough there with the current setup to dip at least midway into the 11s.


Hi Todd

I don't know... In Croatia we race driver vs. driver, not car vs. car so maybe that's why they count in the reaction time into the ET... 

I believe that this car can run high 10s with some tweaks. And you must remember that we don't have professional (sticky) drag tracks. We're racing on old military airports



Pirape said:


> Just like that, why didnt you go with the BLDC motors?


Because there are no such high power BLDC motor but we're developing our own high power AC system.

We had a race against a Tesla Roadster. A friend of mine shoot a short video:






We're waaaaaay faster. Especially at high speeds. I gave them 3 chances. All with the same result.

My camera team was also there, you'll have to wait a few days for one of our "professional" videos...

Btw. Here are some more sneak previews of our new pack and BMS









http://s1003.photobucket.com/albums... moto electric car project/?action=postupload


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You're just having too much fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> I don't know... In Croatia we race driver vs. driver, not car vs. car so maybe that's why they count in the reaction time into the ET...


Just as much fun either way.  If your RT was counted in that ET, by American standards you definitely ran an 11-sec pass already...





CroDriver said:


> ...I believe that this car can run high 10s with some tweaks...


I believe that. You have the power.





CroDriver said:


> ...And you must remember that we don't have professional (sticky) drag tracks. We're racing on old military airports...


I wonder if they'd let you import some "stick-um". You guys can perfect creating your own sticky professional tracks on those airport runways. All you need is a garden sprayer. Heck, with your resources just find the chemical composition and start making it yourself. You can sell V=S/T brand sticky stuff!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> You're just having too much fun!


LOL! Agreed!


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

crodriver,
when do you plan to start selling your motors or do you plan to at all? i might have missed it but what are the dimensions of the motor and weight?

what year is your bimmer? nice setup btw!


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## Zesty Bonanza (Sep 22, 2010)

Great work CroDriver. I am considering converting a E30 to an electric as well (but not as fast as long as it can get under 13 second quarter mile). Was this a BMW 325 or 318? Which transmission(s) broke (Getrag 240 or 260 or something else)?


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)




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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/17/video-vst-conversions-blows-us-competition-away-with-bmw-bi-mo/

CroDriver makes Autoblog.com!!!


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/17/video-vst-conversions-blows-us-competition-away-with-bmw-bi-mo/
> CroDriver makes Autoblog.com!!!


i admire him and his built every day ...there is one small detail however, the car is still referred to as "bi-moto" so CroDriver needs to either add a second motor or change the name  I have to admit, I rather see another motor in there


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## Sticky (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey CroDriver, I run a BMW performance site and just wanted to say I was blown away by your electric E30 and that it runs low 12's.

I featured your car as the lead story: Http://www.bimmerboost.com , direct link to article: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content....d-E30-BMW-is-a-green-beast-that-runs-low-12-s

Seriously, amazing work and I can't stress enough how cool this is to see especially someone taking a different approach. Major props to the Croatians for doing this and great videos!


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi Sticky !

Regarding your question on bimmerboost on range/charge.
I think that the car has about 23kwh of battery pack and that would giv it a range in normal driving of about 130-180km.

I have a 19 kwh pack in my Renault Clio and that gives me over 140km range.

But I guess Mate haven't tested the range that much, focus seems to be on strip ET and ES.

Regards
/Per


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

EDIT: Sorry, double post...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

EDIT: Sorry again, my PC seems to be on drugs today...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi Cro, I guess you probably know, or it's not relevant anymore, or I mix the makes up, but better be save than sorry: Victor of MM destroyed a box with those bags because they leaked electricity through their shell. Or something like that.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry guys, I have missed the questions here somehow... We have been very busy with a lot of non-BMW related stuff so I didn't had the time to hang around on the forum...

Just a quick update about what we're making for the BMW right now...

A new battery pack. Like always: lighter, stronger, better... 

Everything started again with a 3D model 










Then we made a few prototype clamps... This is the 4rd try. We ended up making 5 different of them until we where satisfied and started to produce 100 of them 





































Most of the parts on one spot... We had to design and produce over 1.000 parts for the pack.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Our BMS (credits to our team member Benjamin - ZWmaster on the forum)




























We're also developing our DC controller and a lot of other toys that are not meant for the BMW so I can't speak about it yet. We'll install the new pack and BMS within two weeks and start the winter testing. I believe that we'll get a bunch of great information thanks to the new BMS.




Jan said:


> Hi Cro, I guess you probably know, or it's not relevant anymore, or I mix the makes up, but better be save than sorry: Victor of MM destroyed a box with those bags because they leaked electricity through their shell. Or something like that.


Hi Jan. Yes, I have seen it. But that happened with Kokams. We haven't noticed that current is flowing between the edges of our cells. However, we have inserted thin sheets between the cells for insulation


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

What cells are you using? Those are some pretty parts!!!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am very impressed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn Cro, you've been a busy boy! I wondered where you've been hiding.
Nice looking stuff as always.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah but... But.. I don't find Cro's pictures very inspiring. They always make me feel like a loser.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Jan said:


> Yeah but... But.. I don't find Cro's pictures very inspiring. They always make me feel like a loser.


I find Cro's pictures VERY inspiring, he might have a budget a bit higher than most of us, but that doesn't mean we can't take 1 or 2 of his ideas and do something similar. (I might have borrowed the Warp11hv/Headway idea) 

I think Cro just raises the bar every month or two which is simply good for the EV "appearance" all over the world. Find an EV hater, or someone who thinks they are big golf carts, and show them one of Cro's video's and they usually shut up or flip sides and admit EV's are kinda cool.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Wow, thanks guys for the nice words! I'm very glad that you enjoy to follow our progress. 

Yesterday fell a lot of snow here and I can't wait to install the new battery-pack to make a proper EV-snow-drift video  (only for cold temperature battery testing of course, not for my own pleasure  )


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Wow, thanks guys for the nice words! I'm very glad that you enjoy to follow our progress.
> 
> Yesterday fell a lot of snow here and I can't wait to install the new battery-pack to make a proper EV-snow-drift video  (only for cold temperature battery testing of course, not for my own pleasure  )


How can you make a _proper_ EV video in the snow? 
If it's cold enough for the white stuff, it's too cold for babes in shorts. 

Still, looking forward to it.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

Also, 205 kW = 275 hp. 

More power!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

drivin98 said:


> Also, 205 kW = 275 hp.
> 
> More power!


I am pretty sure they were just testing their equipment...

325 sagged down to 270 x 1400A now thats where its at, 500hp!


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## crap (Dec 5, 2009)

"Recycling BMS"? Sounds almost like it balances the pack by charging the low cells with power from the complete pack, instead of shunting the high cells. Does it?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

drivin98 said:


> Also, 205 kW = 275 hp.
> 
> More power!


Bowser is right, that was just a test. The BMS is designed with our 4.000 Amp controller in mind. 



crap said:


> "Recycling BMS"? Sounds almost like it balances the pack by charging the low cells with power from the complete pack, instead of shunting the high cells. Does it?


Yep, it does both. I don't like the idea of shunting 99 cells if just one is too low.


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## crap (Dec 5, 2009)

Sweet. Also great if you want to add a range extender for long drives, since that could occasionaly require balancing while driving without fully charging the batteries.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, I finally read this thread A to Z, great source of knowledge!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Sorry, I thought you guys like photos and all have high-speed connections


Hey Mate,
Congratulations on passing  100,000 views of your thread!
Gerhard


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Hey Mate,
> Congratulations on passing  100,000 views of your thread!
> Gerhard


X2 - Wow!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh, I haven't noticed it at all. It's a great motivation that people like this build.

I noticed that this project is mentioned every time when EV performance is on topic and it makes me really proud. All the hard (and fun!) work pays off... 

I can't wait to show you guys all the other things that we are doing. But unfortunately that won't happen any time soon (a little less than one year).

This project is quite popular here in my country and got a lot of attention. Just some examples:


































































A lot of international media also spread the news. So this is the prove, *EVs CAN BE FUN*, we just have to find a good way of presenting them. Racing and good video coverage is the best way to do this in my opinion...

Thanks for the support guys, I'll keep you updated!


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Oh, I haven't noticed it at all. It's a great motivation that people like this build.
> 
> A lot of international media also spread the news. So this is the prove, *EVs CAN BE FUN*, we just have to find a good way of presenting them. Racing and good video coverage is the best way to do this in my opinion...
> 
> Thanks for the support guys, I'll keep you updated!


Thank you "Cro" for such an entertaining thread, you really did accomplish and demonstrated a lot to us, the EV'ers and our surrounding world


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Only one honey in all those pictures?!  J/k - that's great!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Only one honey in all those pictures?!  J/k - that's great!


All about the honeys again! Only you, Todd, only you! 

Cro, really good to see how much publicity you are getting, you really deserve it and have earned it.
You have done so much, not just for your own projects but for the EV community as a whole.
Well done!


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey Cro, 
I dont know where you stand with your AC project, and whether you have seen these videos before...but I think these guys come half way to what you had planned with 2 uqm motors  

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/100-mph-electric-car.php
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/100-mph-electric-car.php


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

look at that guys EV grin, when he is driving the car...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Just read the whole thread, great project Cro! Just out of curiosity, what was the total weight of the car when it had the Headway pack?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

efan said:


> hey Cro,
> I dont know where you stand with your AC project, and whether you have seen these videos before...but I think these guys come half way to what you had planned with 2 uqm motors


Yeah, I have followed their progress... It's an interesting project but way too much money spent with not so great performance... They claim a lot but whenever someone drives the car they come up with some excuses...

Our AC projects...? Well, it's alive 












Woodsmith said:


> All about the honeys again! Only you, Todd, only you!





toddshotrods said:


> Only one honey in all those pictures?!


OK, just for you guys - my girlfriend helping out...










It's cold here so she's dressed with a ton of clothes  Sorry guys...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Just out of curiosity, what was the total weight of the car when it had the Headway pack?


I think it was about 1.280 kg when we had both battery packs inside (the one in the passenger compartment + the other one in the trunk)

We have finished our new battery pack and BMS


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

First charging:










And some winter testing:




















A short, spontaneously shoot video:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...It's cold here so she's dressed with a ton of clothes  Sorry guys...


You guys really should think about moving to a warm tropical climate. You can put all the money you save on winter clothing into the car!


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

nice updates...so are you currently running a new gearbox (i think you mentioned a clutch less, 0 shift)?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn Cro, it just keeps getting better! I'm suffering from EV envy


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

She's into cars, but into EVs to boot? I'd say a keeper


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Very nice work Mate, well done again.

Steve


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> You guys really should think about moving to a warm tropical climate. You can put all the money you save on winter clothing into the car!


Nah, I like it here... Just a few more months and it's getting warm again. But good idea - less clothes for the girl - more batteries for the car 



efan said:


> nice updates...so are you currently running a new gearbox (i think you mentioned a clutch less, 0 shift)?


Unfortunately - no. My mechanical engineering team is very busy with our other projects which are more important than this BMW so I didn't want to slow the other things down just to make the BMW a bit faster... Maybe this battery makes enough difference for this year of drag racing.



JRP3 said:


> Damn Cro, it just keeps getting better!


That's the point, isn't it? 



david85 said:


> She's into cars, but into EVs to boot? I'd say a keeper


Yeah, and when I want to get rid of her, I just have to ask her to hold the + and - of the main battery pack  Just kidding...



Jozzer said:


> Very nice work Mate, well done again.


Thanks


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Second all comments, Great work there, Cro, and a great video. It really covers a lot of the basic points people ask about.

Nice snow driving too, we need more of that ability here.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Second all comments, Great work there, Cro, and a great video. It really covers a lot of the basic points people ask about.
> 
> Nice snow driving too, we need more of that ability here.


Thanks Woody 

Some news:



















I'm quite satisfied with the weight, although I forgot to take some unnecessary stuff out of the car prior to the measurement...










1174 kg!










This is how a working BMS looks (yes, it's not just a myth, a BMS can really work!  ):










Balancing:










I'm using the car now almost every day










We're now tweaking the car to work perfect. Here is a new custom prop-shaft being built in to eliminate the vibrations which appeared over 4.000 RPM



















Now it runs very smooth. The car is still not finished, but I guess it won't ever be...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Wired.com posted an article about the car










http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/900hp-bmw-ev-conversion-just-keeps-getting-better/

Btw. I told them that the battery can deliver up to 900 hp, not the motor... But it's a good article anyways


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice write up, and, amazingly, nice comments as well. (Maybe the FUD police haven't found it yet.)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice write up, and, amazingly, nice comments as well. (Maybe the FUD police haven't found it yet.)


Yes, it's quite a nice article.


The associated press filmed some footage of the car. I have no idea where it will go on air but it could be anywhere on the globe since almost all TV companies are subscribed to their service. So if you see something please post a note here




























I called a friend who's a very good driver to drive my BMW M6 to compare it to the EV. We have made some crazy stunts, I hope that they won't cut it out in the final video






































Then I went to PROVE what I'm talking about - on a dyno. The outside temperature was -3 C so the result is not as good as I was hoping but good enough.





























...but we're almost 200 kg lighter compared to the first dyno run so the new battery pack is quite a success. 

The rear suspension components are all bended because of the high power and my abuse so this may have caused the lower power measurenment too. We have almost completed our new rear suspension + transmission so we'll install it on time for the first races this season.


----------



## galeson (Oct 25, 2009)

Hi Cro,

At first glance I was startled to see that you were running the 11HV up to 9000rpm and then I remembered that the rpm scale needs to be divided by 2. Still a nice jump in horse power.
I really love your cell level voltage read out. Any chance they might be for sale in the future?
Galeson


----------



## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Mate,

Nice work, keep it up!

Any chance we can see the controller output for one of those runs? I'm curious as to how the graph relates to current delivered..

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's with the three guys sitting on the batteries, pack warmers?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Hi Mate,
> 
> Nice work, keep it up!
> 
> ...







































I think that the dyno data is wrong... We have much more electric power than last time but less measured wheel power. We noticed that the suspension and subframe bended because of the torque. If the tires are not straight the measurement can't be accurate. Now we have street tires, last time slicks where on the rims so this made probably some difference too.

Btw. Guys - take a look how stable the battery voltage is. This cells are awesome! The pack weights only 150 kg and gives 650 hp without any problem!



JRP3 said:


> What's with the three guys sitting on the batteries, pack warmers?


Downforce/traction controll


----------



## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Very interesting, thank you!

Steve


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What's with the three guys sitting on the batteries, pack warmers?


Remote wheelie and speed indicators. If the screams begin doppler-shifting, you know you've probably wheelied hard enough to lose some, and you can gauge by ear if the speed is fast enough.


----------



## electricvisions (Feb 9, 2011)

CroDriver said:


> The associated press filmed some footage of the car. I have no idea where it will go on air but it could be anywhere on the globe since almost all TV companies are subscribed to their service. So if you see something please post a note here...


Hey, I just saw some stuff at Pro7 - Germany (05/02/11 - 18.05)directly in front of Simpsons... so I think a lot of people noticed your stuff... I just turned on and saw just a few seconds. But these are so interesting that I googled for the name in the display of the car and found these forum...

It would be great to see somewhere online the footage,... I think there is some stuff on Youtube but it can't be viewed from germany I think cause of some music inside oder something like that... Can you provide the footage on an other platform like vimeo.com? Or send it to me somehow?
A good friend of mine is a big BMW Fan and I need to show this to him!

..keep on the work, and be carefull that your car and ideas are save and you earn some money with that awesome work!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

My girlfriend made a surprise for my birthday. It's even 100% eatable 









































electricvisions said:


> Hey, I just saw some stuff at Pro7 - Germany (05/02/11 - 18.05)directly in front of Simpsons... so I think a lot of people noticed your stuff... I just turned on and saw just a few seconds. But these are so interesting that I googled for the name in the display of the car and found these forum...
> 
> It would be great to see somewhere online the footage,... I think there is some stuff on Youtube but it can't be viewed from germany I think cause of some music inside oder something like that... Can you provide the footage on an other platform like vimeo.com? Or send it to me somehow?
> A good friend of mine is a big BMW Fan and I need to show this to him!
> ...


I'm glad you like it. A friend of mine from Germany recorded the news with his phone and put it on-line. Here you go:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow, that cake is awesome, looks like a lot of work went into it. Did she make it herself, or have it done? Either way that's pretty cool. Happy B-day


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Wow, that cake is awesome, looks like a lot of work went into it. Did she make it herself, or have it done? Either way that's pretty cool. Happy B-day


Thanks! She just told me that one month went into preparation (taking photos of the car, and studying how others made such cakes, researching which materials to use). 

She now sent me the whole photostory so I can make DIY instructions 










It has a chocolate chassis


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's fantastic, Cro, happy birthday to you. 

I bet there are many more calories in the cake then you have horsepower.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's fantastic, Cro, happy birthday to you.


Thanks Woody! 

Btw. The cake was delicious 










OK, now back to work...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Autoblog Green article: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/17/vst-conversions-bwm-ev-faster-lighter-more-powerful/


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

At last, finally you're able to impress me with the cake. Good job.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Thanks Woody!
> 
> Btw. The cake was delicious
> 
> ...


Hey Mate!

Nice cake. Are you doing any gear change on your diff?
Are you still going to build a go-kart?

Albano


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Autoblog Green article: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/17/vst-conversions-bwm-ev-faster-lighter-more-powerful/


Wow, I didn't knew that Autoblog follows our progress on the forum. Nice article. Just a pity that they haven't asked for pics.



Jan said:


> At last, finally you're able to impress me with the cake. Good job.


The credits go to my girlfriend for that one 



albano said:


> Are you still going to build a go-kart?


I basically don't speak much about planing. I first want to make stuff before posting about. I don't like endless threads with tons of text and not much progress. 

Since you asked I will give you some information. The go-kart idea was on-hold for quite some time. Recently I decided to make a buggy instead of a go-kart. The chassis and suspension design and calculations are finished. A special team is made to make it possible to meet the deadline (about July) for finishing the buggy.






















albano said:


> Are you doing any gear change on your diff?


Yep. We're making the whole rear suspension from scratch. I'll post some photos in a few days.

Btw. Some new pics...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

And some real-life testing...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You also got some coverage from Nikki Gordon Bloomfield on Transport Evolved




It's a long video, I think you're somewhere past the halfway mark.

By the way, did BMW give you credit for their Active E paint job?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You also got some coverage from Nikki Gordon Bloomfield on Transport Evolved


LOL. Wired guys... I would say not the best way of promoting EVs

Btw. A teaser for our next video...


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Mate
I love your car and most of the videos you've done, but this one's too arty for me. Keep it punchy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Mate
> I love your car and most of the videos you've done, but this one's too arty for me. Keep it punchy


I thought it was great, very clever, though it could be tightened up between :40 and 1:00. 20 seconds of nothing but a white screen had me reaching for the FF button


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I thought it was great, very clever, though it could be tightened up between :40 and 1:00. 20 seconds of nothing but a white screen had me reaching for the FF button


I think the video was great, although that "white" screen for so long makes you wonder if the video stopped or something. I think the music was great, but probably won't appeal to everyone. 

Camera man is great, but should try and use the reflections to his advantage or try to stay out of them.

I assume the new pack is performing very well??


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

OK, the video is not bad. But my favorite is still the cake. Yep. By far.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

first view got lost in the white , secound time I loved it . now for some cryo gas from the cooling system ( electric motor post on cryo generator) .btw whats the max power that the batteries push ?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The video is a bit too arty for me too. It looks like a trailer for an horror movie. When I asked the guy who makes the video to make it a bit lighter and with more action he was offended and wanted to quit work for me... The I told him to make what ever he wants, one video in an arty/horror-ish style can't be a bad thing. My usual video-crew is making another video parallel to this new guy.



Jan said:


> OK, the video is not bad. But my favorite is still the cake. Yep. By far.


My girlfriend was so happy when I showed her this 



aeroscott said:


> .btw whats the max power that the batteries push ?


We have measured 505 kW (686 HP) from the pack (both the BMS and the controller logged the same figure).




rwaudio said:


> I assume the new pack is performing very well??


Yes, it's great! Besides heating... The manufacturer says that 55*C is the absolute limit so we stop when we hit 50*C. This happens sometimes after we only discharge 40% SOC (mostly on tracks and dynos because we constantly pull huge amounts of current). 

But that is not a problem, we have already prepared a water cooling solution for the next car. But I'm still not sure what to do in the summer when the outside temperature is almost 40*C. Now it's around 0*C.



Btw. more information about the battery pack and BMS can be found here (click me)


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## ragnar (Nov 14, 2010)

http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Systems/Netgain-Motors/Netgain-WarP-11-HV-p63.html

what is the differents between this motor and the one in your car??

and are you going to put a ac motor in the e30 or in another car project?

Best regents Ragnar...


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## rpece (Mar 10, 2011)

Amazing Project - Well Done !!!

Looking to do something similar, but for Time Attack.

PM Sent.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey Cro...on your facebook page you have a picture of a very interesting project (I believe it is an opel speedster). I assume you will be installing your ac drive in it to get a tesla like car, is that right? can you give some more info on it? what batteries are you planning to use etc?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

efan said:


> hey Cro...on your facebook page you have a picture of a very interesting project (I believe it is an opel speedster). I assume you will be installing your ac drive in it to get a tesla like car, is that right? can you give some more info on it? what batteries are you planning to use etc?


I purchased a Opel Speedster which is based on the Lotus Elise. It's basically an Elise with a different exterior and engine. 










The goal was to convert it using our AC motor and newly developed liquid cooled battery. I took it for a ride on the nearby track to test the performance before we converted it for comparison.




























It performed quite well the whole day and then I gave it for a couple of laps to a friend of mine. I was the co-driver. Both of us are quite tall so I had to take the roof off to fit in. After one lap he was getting faster and more confident. And then he lost it in one right corner. We rolled over twice. Fortunately, we are fine. No injuries. This was really close... The helmet saved my head. 










Imagine what would have happened if the car stopped just half an meter forward. The fence would have killed us both... 

The BMW project is in it's final stages. The whole rear end is made from scratch:





































Wider wheels are purchased since we had massive traction problems


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

...200 parts where developed and made for the rear suspension.










The body is now being adapted for the wider wheels










And some recent TV footage shortened from 30 mins to less than 7 min...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a scary accident in the Opal, very happy that there were no serious injuries, or worse.
I lost my brother in 1991 when the car he was riding in flipped and landed on a fence. The fence post went through the car floor, the passenger seat and through him.



That's a really good video!


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I am glad there were no injuries!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Holy crap Mate, talk about a near death experience! Can't believe you walked away from that one. I'd imagine it's pretty hard to flip that car, I'd recommend you do the driving from now on instead of your friend. Nice work on the car and videos as always.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Your accident shows that there are many risc on testing newer equipment and these are part of R/D, on the loss side thou.
The wider tires will allow the vehicle to "bite" better the track for a better performance., but we all know that.........
Great compiled video


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is a scary accident in the Opal, very happy that there were no serious injuries, or worse.
> I lost my brother in 1991 when the car he was riding in flipped and landed on a fence. The fence post went through the car floor, the passenger seat and through him.


Sounds like an action scene from a movie. I'm sorry you lost your brother this way. At least my brother didn't loose me this way.



JRP3 said:


> Holy crap Mate, talk about a near death experience! Can't believe you walked away from that one.


Yeah, no one could. When we managed to get out we started to laugh and hug. Everyone thought that we where badly injured, but just don't feel it yet. My face was full of dirt since my head (or helmet) was scratching the ground while the car was up-side-down. After a shower I was like nothing happened besides headache. 



JRP3 said:


> I'd imagine it's pretty hard to flip that car, I'd recommend you do the driving from now on instead of your friend.


He lost the rear end, which then hit the fence and the car flipped over after the impact. First the front lifted and we flipped over, the second flip over was sideways.

This is the proud driver:










Now he has to buy me a new Speedy


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Sounds like an action scene from a movie. I'm sorry you lost your brother this way. At least my brother didn't loose me this way.


Cheers Cro, I still felt a pang of fear when I saw the photo but you were still posting light heartedly so I figured nothing bad was coming.



CroDriver said:


> This is the proud driver:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope he has insurance, though a little T.Cut might do the trick!


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## Desperato (Feb 22, 2011)

Lucky break. Glad it turned out ok - the world needs you!

Speaking of needs, I REALLY hope you're going to start capitalising on all that R&D soon by offering those sweetly designed battery assemblies for sale. We, mortals, want fast EV's too!


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Have you considered some sort of launch control. Its clear that you have more power then all of the cars you have raced, but you spend the first 5 seconds of the race just shredding tires. I know money is not a concern for you, but it seems like a launch control system would pay for itself pretty soon with all the tires you go through 

Anyways, Awesome car(s). Never stop. Its truly fascinating.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I guess after the crash Cro forgot to post his new awesome video from his very talented videographer. This has some of the best editing I've ever seen, the guy is out there  I like it  I'd suggest watching it on youtube to get the larger screen size.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Desperato said:


> Speaking of needs, I REALLY hope you're going to start capitalising on all that R&D soon by offering those sweetly designed battery assemblies for sale. We, mortals, want fast EV's too!


I really doubt that fast EVs are going to be available for a decent price tag any time soon. The technology is still pretty expensive...



Sutitan said:


> Have you considered some sort of launch control. Its clear that you have more power then all of the cars you have raced, but you spend the first 5 seconds of the race just shredding tires. I know money is not a concern for you, but it seems like a launch control system would pay for itself pretty soon with all the tires you go through


No smoke, no fun  

We're working on an TC system but it's not for the BMW.



JRP3 said:


> I guess after the crash Cro forgot to post his new awesome video from his very talented videographer. This has some of the best editing I've ever seen, the guy is out there  I like it  I'd suggest watching it on youtube to get the larger screen size.



Thanks for posting it JRP. 

Here is how the new bodywork looks like:














































A part of the BMW-project team:










...this event was very important. I'm not allowed to post information about it yet because of some FIA regulations but as soon as I get the permission I will post details.


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## Rich02si (Feb 22, 2011)

I dig the m3 flares. Too bad you didnt start the project with an E30 M3. Im anxious to hear some acceraltion numbers with the new shoes. Throw on a set of drag slicks and go after White Zombie!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The car looks good!
Especially like the look under the back end.

Only thing I think I would change would be to either make the front wings match the rear or add the crease line over the rear arches to match the front.
But that is a minor styling point.

Just watchd the video.
Excellent!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I guess after the crash Cro forgot to post his new awesome video from his very talented videographer. This has some of the best editing I've ever seen, the guy is out there  I like it  I'd suggest watching it on youtube to get the larger screen size.


da! speechless da! great work ! love the end . Love all of it!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

From crodriver


> i have recently built our ac system into the bmw. I won't be using dc much any more. Only one project is still using dc - the off-road buggy we're building.


We all need news about this!!!!!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yabert said:


> From crodriver
> 
> 
> We all need news about this!!!!!!!


X2. Even if you can't reveal any proprietary information, some general feelings and thoughts about why you're going AC in the Beemer, and (personal) performance predictions or hopes, would be nice to hear.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yabert said:


> From crodriver
> 
> 
> We all need news about this!!!!!!!





toddshotrods said:


> X2. Even if you can't reveal any proprietary information, some general feelings and thoughts about why you're going AC in the Beemer, and (personal) performance predictions or hopes, would be nice to hear.


I knew that I should have kept my mouth shout  

We just recently installed it. A big part of it is engineered by my team so there is still a lot of fine tuning and testing involved. Everything is controlled via CAN-bus so it's less a mechanical or electrical (wiring) thing, it's more about tweaking the software.

The next race is in 2 weeks and I hope to be quicker than with the DC system. I also hope to get a lot more (also reliable) information for testing than with the Zilla. The range should also increase and regen is a cool feature.

The sound is also quite different. We'll know more once everything is finished.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> The next race is in 2 weeks and I hope to be quicker than with the DC system.


Are we still talking about a 200Kw AC system...because if we are, I do not understand how it can be quicker than the ~500hp you were getting with the 11" and zilla...what am I missing?have you installed 2 of them? do you have a unit more powerful than 200kw?


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

efan said:


> Are we still talking about a 200Kw AC system...because if we are, I do not understand how it can be quicker than the ~500hp you were getting with the 11" and zilla...what am I missing?have you installed 2 of them? do you have a unit more powerful than 200kw?


 
I'm curious too. But it's not simply peak power. An AC drive has generally more power in a wider RPM range. So a DC can peak higher, but in the long run still loose.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You let the cat out of the bag when you started dissing on direct drive DC!









If you look at cars like the Tesla or AC Propulsion, they are faster than you'd expect -- AC is a bit more efficient and has a broader torque curve.


CroDriver said:


> I knew that I should have kept my mouth shout
> 
> We just recently installed it. A big part of it is engineered by my team so there is still a lot of fine tuning and testing involved. Everything is controlled via CAN-bus so it's less a mechanical or electrical (wiring) thing, it's more about tweaking the software.
> 
> ...


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

CAN Bus based motor drive?

Very nice!

Could it be the Rhinehart Motion Systems PM100..250 or Tritium Wavesculptor200 ? The Tritium is only useable through CAN, the RMS still has analog inputs for throttle/brake. Mes dea TIM600 is probably too small unless he bought 4 or so.


Im in the process of selecting a motor drive for my roadster, hope CRO-Driver reveals more information soon. He never chose 'slow lane' hardware


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

There are two motors installed.

It is not any know system, we have developed it from scratch together with a German partner for another project.

And no, I won't give you any more information for now


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Sounds very good!! 
Hope it works out as planned or even better.

Ill try to resist from asking for more technical details on the drive as Im also working on a similar ac drive project . (one part is hacking a old vfd, other is ground-up as well)


Something else, I noticed you (and many other other who use cylindrical cells) used copper bars/strips? when paralleling your cylindrical batteries. I think you risked battery discharge imbalance with doing so. I know you already changed to a pouch type battery, but even then id like to ask your opinion in this 'simple' but often rejected solution to discharge imbalance.
Make series strings of your batteries as you require. But do not parallel the parallel batteries with low impedance paths, but with 'high' impedance parallel paths (1 ohm ptc vs copper bar / 1mOhm). 
This allows the string to share the current with the parallel strings more evenly when cell internal resistance are not perfectly matched. 
When paralleling with a high impedance path, good cells (low internal resistance cell) do not have to take take over from the lesser (higher internal impedance) ones.


//Steven


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> Sounds very good!!
> Hope it works out as planned or even better.


Thanks! 



steven4601 said:


> Something else, I noticed you (and many other other who use cylindrical cells) used copper bars/strips? when paralleling your cylindrical batteries. I think you risked battery discharge imbalance with doing so. I know you already changed to a pouch type battery, but even then id like to ask your opinion in this 'simple' but often rejected solution to discharge imbalance.
> Make series strings of your batteries as you require. But do not parallel the parallel batteries with low impedance paths, but with  'high' impedance parallel paths (1 ohm ptc vs copper bar / 1mOhm).
> This allows the string to share the current with the parallel strings more evenly when cell internal resistance are not perfectly matched.
> When paralleling with a high impedance path, good cells (low internal resistance cell) do not have to take take over from the lesser (higher internal impedance) ones.
> ...


We are carrying huge amounts of current and a high impedance path would lead to looses and heating which we are trying to avoid in our packs.

Also, as far as I have seen even the big OEMs are paralleling cells the same way. Nissan, GM and A123 weld the cell tabs together, BMW uses bus-bars (larger format pouch cells), Tesla parallels 99 cells in the Roadster with copper (as far as I have seen is some pictures) and many other projects.

What do you think could be the long-term problem for such a connection style?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Ill try to find the picture which expains it all. Losses due to the high impedance parallel paths are less than a few watts as the current flows through the string, not between the parallel batteries...


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

I just made a few new screenshots.

a demo battery pack with non ideal batteries. three strings, paralleling resistor is placed between each parallel resistor. Can use 2 resistors (cell to cell) or 3 (delta or star connection) the demo is done with a single point to point.

One simulation is ran at 1 ohm for the resistors (Id recommend PTC's IRL)
second simulation is ran at 1 mili ohm.

The simulation output window is scaled 80 to 120A for both simulations to show the difference in CELL currents.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks for the pics.

Our headway pack, for example, had a connection between every neighbor cell in series. So one paralleled string was connected to the next string with every cells (8 cells = 8 connections). 

What if the battery pack design doesn't allow that like our new pouch-style pack? Or a pack with the same cells but with 10 of them in parallel (which we are currently developing). It is impossible to allow current flow between the paralleled cells in the middle of the row and the next string. Well, it is possible but complicated with more parts.

I just talked to a couple of engineers from my team and they believe that this could be an issue with lower grade cells like Headway but A123s, with lower internal resistance and better QC won't have problems.

Anyways, it's a interesting theory, we will measure the current of cells in the same parallel row in our Headway pack if we ever use it again to see what's happening. 

I'm sure that there is an difference between the cells in parallel but I guess barely noticeable except in high discharge situations.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi,

Thank you for talking about this idea with your engineers. I have a hunch that this issue become far greater as soon the internal resistance of the cell becomes lower.... Just like springs. The softer and longer the spring the less of a imbalance will be exerted on an uneven surface. Change the springs for rock solid springs/studs , the pressure will be very unevenly distributed...... 

In other words, if you drop the Ri of the cell from 8mOhm (headway 38120) to 0.8mili ohm (or lower) for the pouches your cell matching on parallel stage has to be better to reduce the 'parallel' currents.

//Steven


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Sounds very good!!
> Hope it works out as planned or even better.
> 
> Ill try to resist from asking for more technical details on the drive as Im also working on a similar ac drive project . (one part is hacking a old vfd, other is ground-up as well)
> ...


There are positives and negatives with that, if you have one "below average" performing cell in the series string the entire string is restricted by it's output current.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

That does happen only when a cell is 'broken' already. 
With a cheap hall sensor / current sensor bad strings can be detected.
Good sign to go for a 'check up'.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> There are two motors installed.
> 
> It is not any know system, we have developed it from scratch together with a German partner for another project.


so it will be a bi-moto BMW after all...
So Mate, have you given a second taught about selling your AC system to diyers? maybe a group buy?


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Hey Cro,
You have pased 150,000 views on your thread...kewl.
Gerhard


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

efan said:


> so it will be a bi-moto BMW after all...
> So Mate, have you given a second taught about selling your AC system to diyers? maybe a group buy?


Yes, I have taught about it. And the answer is still: No. There are many reasons for my decision. 



GerhardRP said:


> Hey Cro,
> You have pased 150,000 views on your thread...kewl.
> Gerhard


Wow, interesting... As far as I can see it is the most visited thread on this forum. I'm very pleased.

To say thanks to all fans I took a walk around our facility and shoot pics of a few components which may interest some of you... EV porn


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Wow, interesting... As far as I can see it is the most visited thread on this forum. I'm very pleased.


Just 64,091 short of http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7598  Nonetheless, you are very impressive 




> To say thanks to all fans I took a walk around our facility and shoot pics of a few components which may interest some of you... EV porn


Looks like my barn. Well almost 

Keep up the good work.........

major


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> To say thanks to all fans I took a walk around our facility and shoot pics of a few components which may interest some of you... EV porn


Nice gear! Who's the fatty in the second pic?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> To say thanks to all fans I took a walk around our facility and shoot pics of a few components which may interest some of you... EV porn


Just like porn, looking at stuff we can't have


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Looks like my barn. Well almost
> 
> major


Hope you have a good lock on that barn  You have UQM motors lying around


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Hope you have a good lock on that barn  You have UQM motors lying around













No UQMs lying around, but Helga might be lying around in there


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Is Helga a puppy? She has some BIG feet for a normally svelte breed. If she is a puppy, you are in for a big girl there.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Nice gear! Who's the fatty in the second pic?


It's Mrs. UQM PP200. She's a real pig. I hope she can hold up with the skinnier AC sisters (next to her on the pic).


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

hello,
nice build!!!!!!!!!! good to see that your okay after that crash in the Opel, can you answer a couple questions thought? are you building ac motors form scratch? would not developing a BLDC motor be more efficient, what efficiency are you look at with a ac drive? are you still doing a GTM, if so we did you delete your post here, http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fac...train/229801-planing-1000hp-electric-gtm.html (didn't expect you past to catch up with you did you jokes)
thanks,
Jacob R


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

BLDC is not necessarily more efficient than AC induction. 
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-brushless-motors
Plus you don't have to worry about rare earth elements and overheated magnets.


----------



## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> BLDC is not necessarily more efficient than AC induction.
> http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-brushless-motors
> Plus you don't have to worry about rare earth elements and overheated magnets.


thanks however what about the dc to ac conversion, how efficent is the tesla? bhp to hp


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From the linked article:


> Both drives use 3-phase modulating inverters.


 BLDC is really an AC motor.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

BLDC is part of the family of permanent magnet synchronous AC motors. The main difference between a PMAC and BLDC is supposed to be that BLDC windings are supposed to be optimised for a non-sinusoidal waveform, while a PMAC is optimised for a sinusoidal wave. This is however, never entirely true. Some BLDC motors actually perform better / quieter using a sinusoidal waveform than the trapeze waveform they are optimised for.

In the final analysis, how the magnets are incorporated into the rotor, seems to have a bigger influence on the motor behaviour than the way it is wound, especially with modern invertors. I believe that some developement can still take place here.

It would therefore be more useful to differentiate between PM AC synchronous motors based on magnet placement, rather than a (sometimes supposed) difference between winding styles.

Regards
Dawid


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> It's Mrs. UQM PP200. She's a real pig. I hope she can hold up with the skinnier AC sisters (next to her on the pic).


what's the weight on the UQM200? Such a clean shop ,maybe I will get that together some day. might even be able to find my tools.


----------



## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> BLDC is part of the family of permanent magnet synchronous AC motors. The main difference between a PMAC and BLDC is supposed to be that BLDC windings are supposed to be optimised for a non-sinusoidal waveform, while a PMAC is optimised for a sinusoidal wave. This is however, never entirely true. Some BLDC motors actually perform better / quieter using a sinusoidal waveform than the trapeze waveform they are optimised for.
> 
> In the final analysis, how the magnets are incorporated into the rotor, seems to have a bigger influence on the motor behaviour than the way it is wound, especially with modern invertors. I believe that some developement can still take place here.
> 
> ...


thanks so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so what is the maximum efficiency of an ac motor?
thanks,
Jacob R


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Of *which* AC motor?  

Theoretically, you could get 99.9999999...% efficiency of any kind of motor, if you could get rid of friction losses and eddy currents and other power-wasting stuff. Just not many motors achieve very close to that. 

There are even some brushed motors that are more efficient than some AC motors--it all depends on the design of each.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

ev_nred said:


> hello,
> nice build!!!!!!!!!! good to see that your okay after that crash in the Opel, can you answer a couple questions thought? are you building ac motors form scratch? would not developing a BLDC motor be more efficient, what efficiency are you look at with a ac drive? are you still doing a GTM, if so we did you delete your post here, http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fac...train/229801-planing-1000hp-electric-gtm.html (didn't expect you past to catch up with you did you jokes)
> thanks,
> Jacob R


Hi Jacob

We're developing the motor together with some partners but yes, from scratch. The rotor, stator, windings, cooling, housing, controller etc.

I decided not to build the GTM and that's why I deleted my posts.

I think that your other questions are already answered by the other forum members. 

Regarding DC motor efficiency --> I have experienced a weird thing. We had a consumption of 300 Wh/km with the old motor. After it blew up we replaced it with a similar motor from the same batch. The consumption dropped by 40%. Even with much wider tires and a not-so-efficient racing differential which was installed together with the new motor. 

OK, both motors where custom made and there can be some differences but it is still very strange. 

Tomorrow we're going to Germany for a race and on the way back stop at the Worthersee in Austria for one of the world's biggest car meets.

The car has now a custom made racing suspension, an upgraded battery and BMS. The DC motor is back for a short while because the AC system is getting some upgrades.




























We have also attended another race in Croatia recently:



















This was a hard-test for the AC system. The time slip was 11,3 - even faster than the DC system ever was.

It's a shame that the track in Germany isn't glued - just like all racetrack where I have been so far. So a real comparison to the US and UK guys can't be made.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

More pics:


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

> It's a shame that the track in Germany isn't glued - just like all racetrack where I have been so far. So a real comparison to the US and UK guys can't be made.


Sorry, can't quite understand what you mean by "glued". Can you explain further?

Also, thank you for continuing to post here at DIY, it's a great example of what can be achieved.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

drivin98 said:


> Sorry, can't quite understand what you mean by "glued". Can you explain further?
> 
> Also, thank you for continuing to post here at DIY, it's a great example of what can be achieved.


Something like this:
http://www.circleoilcompany.com/27.html


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Jacob
> 
> We're developing the motor together with some partners but yes, from scratch. The rotor, stator, windings, cooling, housing, controller etc.
> 
> ...


thanks the 11,3 time slip is that with or with reaction time?


----------



## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

Amberwolf said:


> Of *which* AC motor?
> 
> Theoretically, you could get 99.9999999...% efficiency of any kind of motor, if you could get rid of friction losses and eddy currents and other power-wasting stuff. Just not many motors achieve very close to that.
> 
> There are even some brushed motors that are more efficient than some AC motors--it all depends on the design of each.


thanks, but are there any %99 efficent ac system's on the market today?
thanks!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

That 11.3 is pretty impressive Cro! Might be a 10 sec car on a real drag strip. Thats a single motor AC setup correct? How many peak KW does that motor/controller put out?


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## lutach (May 31, 2011)

Hi CroDriver,

Are you having the maker of the inverter/controller make a more powerful unit? From the datasheet they sent me, the particular one you have will put out 250A r.m.s. at 8kHz and can handle 100-650VDC. Now the motor, which is made by a different company can also be a Synchronous style motor which might be able to produce more power, do you think the inverter/controller can operate such motor instead of the Asynchronous one you have?

Regards.


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## Semper Vivus (Apr 13, 2011)

CroDriver said:


> (...)
> Tomorrow we're going to Germany for a race and on the way back stop at the Worthersee in Austria for one of the world's biggest car meets.
> (...)


Hi Mate,
this race was only 150km away from my home. Are you going to drive your car on more events in Germany this year?
It would be great to see you and your car in real action.

Best regards,
Tom


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Semper Vivus said:


> Hi Mate,
> this race was only 150km away from my home. Are you going to drive your car on more events in Germany this year?
> It would be great to see you and your car in real action.
> 
> ...


Hi Tom.

I'll participate at the e-miglia:

http://www.e-miglia.com/route/

There are lots of news with the BMW but I have to find some time to collect photos and info and post it. You know, I'm the kind of guy who first does things and then posts about them, unlike some others which are around here recently... 

Until then, enjoy our bicicle build which we have made for the prince of Abu Dhabi:


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

...70 km/h on flat without pedaling. Range 40 km without pedaling. Very fun to drive.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

That's a pretty sweet bike, glad you found a way to use the headways!
I might be stuck with them if I can't get my hands on A123's.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The electronics install is so clean I think the bikes look even better without the white covers!


rwaudio said:


> That's a pretty sweet bike, glad you found a way to use the headways!
> I might be stuck with them if I can't get my hands on A123's.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

We have participated in many events this year but the last one is really special so I will post a short report.

It was a two day event. Two separate races, one on Saturday, one on Sunday. 

Saturday:

Racing team in "action" 










The crowd is crazy about our car



















We raced 5 different cars at Saturday and won every time 




























Nissan GTR R34


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

New BMW M3 



















And the winner is...










Sunday:
















































And again...



















Some videos I found on YouTube...











We have tons on video material from all those races and soon we'll make a new video.

It was a great weekend.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Way to go Cro!  It looks like you're having too much fun!  Can't wait for the new video.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Like the back window!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Great!

Can you give a bit more detail about this weekend?


Something like:
-AC motor(s)?? DC?? We need to know!
-Transmission.... two speed zero-shift or single speed?
-1/4 miles time.

Many thanks... it's so interesting!


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## ev_nred (Sep 23, 2009)

nice job!
cheers,
ev_nred


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

amazing fun as always...cheers buddy


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Yabert said:


> Great!
> 
> Can you give a bit more detail about this weekend?
> 
> ...


DC, single speed, 11.3

DC is now definatley out of the car, I hope we'll never come back to DC.

Some insight about our battery experience:

My experience with cell_man cells:

We had 300 (100s3p) of them in our car for almost one year. We developed and made our own BMS which monitored and displayed every cell separatley.

This is the battery pack:





































...it was modified over the time in a few evolutions. Now there are 107 cells in series. 

BMS interface (which was also modified a lot of times):










You can notice that some cells have a slightly lower voltage than the others. This phenomenon is there almost from the beginning, even if the battery is fully charged. 

Even when almost all cells are at 3,5-3,65V (shunting), those cells with lower voltage don't rise over 3,4V.

After ONLY 20 Ah (from a 60 Ah pack) is used (so 30% DOD), several cells start to rapidly loose voltage:










So we never really could use the whole battery capacity, but just a small part of it. 

We are not sure why that happened. We tried to seperatley charge those bad cells but it didn't help. Since the car is mostly used for racing, the range was good enough for most of the time. Now we have some different plans for this car so we have replaced all cells with genuine A123 cells directly from the factory. Next week we'll test them.

I can't tell which the reason for those bad cells is. Maybe it's the high discharge rate we'll torturing them with. But still there is the question why this happened from the start. Otherwise the cells where great - not a lot of sag, not getting too hot etc...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Your problems with the cell_man cells might be explained by the post by Steven in this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/6-80-usd-a123-26650m1ii-legiti-60893.html

He seems to indicate that the cell_man cells may be rejects from A123, and don't perform as well as cells direct from the factory. You may want to PM him for clarification.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That was my guess as well. There had to be a reason those cells hit the market. That sort of variation would not pass an OEM quality test. If you had just pulled those 3 weak cells and replaced them with good ones you'd probably be all good, though as you say range was not your concern.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Your problems with the cell_man cells might be explained by the post by Steven in this thread:
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/6-80-usd-a123-26650m1ii-legiti-60893.html
> 
> He seems to indicate that the cell_man cells may be rejects from A123, and don't perform as well as cells direct from the factory. You may want to PM him for clarification.


Could be, but that are just rumors - no evidence. 



JRP3 said:


> That was my guess as well. There had to be a reason those cells hit the market. That sort of variation would not pass an OEM quality test. If you had just pulled those 3 weak cells and replaced them with good ones you'd probably be all good, though as you say range was not your concern.


If we pull just those three parallel strings, I guess that other cells would start to sag but just at a later point. 

We won't throw those cells away, they will be tested seperatley.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Could be, but that are just rumors - no evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Before those cells totally dropped off did they experience higher sag than the rest of the cell groups?

I'll have to watch my cells, I will be ideally using a 96S3P pack of A123 pouches, but I will actually need 50% of the capacity, and would like to be able to use 80%

I'd be interested in any further testing you do on those "bad" cells to see if it's low capacity, high IR, etc.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Just for clarification, my anr26650's where not 'cell_man' cells. I never (to this date) bought cells from cell_man.

Rimac, do you mean certain cells start to behave like a zener or a shunt at a certain voltage?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> Before those cells totally dropped off did they experience higher sag than the rest of the cell groups?


Yes but not much... 



steven4601 said:


> Rimac, do you mean certain cells start to behave like a zener or a shunt at a certain voltage?


No, they behave like normal cells, but you have to stop discharging the pack or you will kill those cells and be unable to drive any more.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification Steven


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

CroDriver said:


> No, they behave like normal cells, but you have to stop discharging the pack or you will kill those cells and be unable to drive any more.


Sorry, I meant while charging and the maximum obtain-able voltage on certain cells. Do the cells start to shunt/zener by themselves at a lower voltage than 3.6V? Or is it an unusual high self discharge which is higher than the balancing current of the already full cells?

Reason for asking is that I want to go BMS-less, and understanding behaviour of failing/abnormal cells is rather important to keep 'somewhat'  balanced.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

He said the cells didn't get hot so unlikely it is higher IR. If they were lower capacity, they should have hit high voltage sooner than the other cells during charge, but they "clamped" at 3.4V. Strange. Is it possible there were some wiring errors, or defective devices, resulting in clamping those cells at 3.4V, preventing them from fully charging? Lot of circuits there, could have made some errors or gotten some defective parts (well, _I_ certainly could)... That would explain the behavior, including more sag, since they were at lower SOC than other cells.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Jacob
> 
> We're developing the motor together with some partners but yes, from scratch. The rotor, stator, windings, cooling, housing, controller etc.
> 
> ...




With your AC setup have the motor designed as a 400 HZ motor like what are used in aerospace applications so that it will be very light weight. This is the same concept like going higher frequencies in switching power supplies because the transformer size and weight is greatly reduced compared to a 60 Hz transformer of the same VA rating. Your base speed would be 12,000 RPM with a 4-pole design and 24,000 RPM with a 2-pole design. For field weakening have it work up to 600 HZ when going past base speed. Rotor balance and bearings are going to be very challenging, but you seem to have a competent team that can handle challenges.


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

CroDriver said:


> Hi Tom.
> 
> I'll participate at the e-miglia:
> 
> ...


What happened to the pictures of the bicycle?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

marc02228 said:


> What happened to the pictures of the bicycle?


I messed up my photobucket account somehow... Seems like all photos are lost


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I messed up my photobucket account somehow... Seems like all photos are lost


I did that a while back.
I tried to change a folder name and it then meant that all the links have no home to link to.

I had to change back to the exact original folder name and they came back again.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hey Cro, you're alive! Please give us an update on how the beast is doing? Any vids yet? And how the torque vectoring works out? etc. etc.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cro,

I might have missed the update, but did you ever get you motor from Jim Husted?


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## 3tcpower (Dec 16, 2008)

Interesting read, but apparently I picked the wrong time. All pics gone  Hope it gets fixed soon and great project.


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## Evoque (Dec 12, 2011)

3tcpower said:


> Interesting read, but apparently I picked the wrong time. All pics gone  Hope it gets fixed soon and great project.


Yes, me too.. 

Cro, your project is a such high level... compliments for that..


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Unfortunatley the photos can't be restored but I'll try to make it up with this video:







...more will follow in the future...



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Cro,
> 
> I might have missed the update, but did you ever get you motor from Jim Husted?


No, never heard back from him or any of his co-workers despite numerous e-mails and calls.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for the update. Keep up the good work. The future for Rimac Automobili looks good.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I was wondering when we would finally hear from you again Cro. Hope things are going well


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## NintendoKD (Apr 29, 2012)

hooked, will finish reading it all tomorrow after workcro, you are my new hero.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

Looks like the ol' BMW bi-moto EV has been officially recognized as the fastest electric car (Category A, Group VIII (electric vehicle), Class 3 (above 1000 kg)) in the world by the FIA. Not bad for a DIY electric car project.


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## scooby555 (Apr 26, 2013)

Hello Cro and everyone,

Read the entire day , 65 pages , countless videos 
But unfortunately many pictures gone........

So what did I learn ? That an EV is faster then an ICE 
Congrats on the world records 

For the rest not so sure haha 
He started with DC , no mention really of big problems ( like fried motors and fried brushes ) except the expected transmisson problems given the amount of torque ....

I guess the last mod was the AC custom made motor ( and a small mention how glad u are to move away from DC ) , with his own battery pack made of presumably 26650 cells ( probably selected like we do for RC ) and i suppose a custom AC controller as well.

Full thumbs up for the super car he produced ( hat off ) really impressive ,

BUT is there anything for the DIY community , any info on better ( meaning cheaper ) AC motors or DC motors , ( longer life )

I hoped to learn something, not sure i did....
I hoped for a resumé of the journey......
Anyway like anyone I am digging up info as I will also start a conversion or 2 

I bought a PGO 500 buggy I'll start a thread on this and next up would be a Ford fiesta ( as from what i read VW polos have shitty gearboxes )

And I will need all the advise I can get as i dont have deep pockets but it seems so much fun


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Besides this forum there is also evdl.org and evtv.me you might want to check out.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's kind of interesting to stalk @CroDriver Mate Rimac's wet behind the ears beginnings here.

Now he does the Porsche Taycan's drivetrain and software, lol, bought Bugatti, and has delivered his first production EV hypercar to one of history's top F1 drivers:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah he definitely leveled up


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

remy_martian said:


> It's kind of interesting to stalk @CroDriver Mate Rimac's wet behind the ears beginnings here.


I do wish that all of his pictures were still here. They were deleted not long before he went public about what he was up to.


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