# Any L-ion batteries made in America?



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

This has come up before. There are companies based in the states but their manufacturing is done outside. GM is trying to make its batteries look like they are made here but I'm thinking they might just be put together here after the cells come off the boat. If they automated the process enough to reduce the human requirements and there was a high enough demand, it might make sense. Lead-acid is made in this chunk of land although it seems apparently Trojan is farming its lead in mexico.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

I am just starting my first EV project and have been wondering the same thing.
Where they are made that makes little difference in the long run, since an American company would eventually move manufacturing overseas.. 
What I do find concerning without American companies producing cells now, means they won't own any IP in the future. An entire industry with out any input. 

I am a little surprised none of the US lead-acids have invested any money in this area.

(By the way I apologize in advance for grammar and spelling)


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> This has come up before. There are companies based in the states but their manufacturing is done outside. GM is trying to make its batteries look like they are made here but I'm thinking they might just be put together here after the cells come off the boat.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPdfMp_xbLY9oU4BYP6-SgoCdSwwD9I79RJ01


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/chevrolet-volt-battery-production/


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/26/nissan-ceo-ghosn-breaks-ground-for-lithium-ion-battery-plant/


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

http://www.electrovaya.com/ 

This may very well be the best lithium battery in existence today.... Canadian eh?? 

Too bad these guys don't sell to chumps like me....


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for those links. It is encouraging. However, it looks like all but the last won't be selling to us anytime soon.

I've emailed electrovaya to see who is their distributor is. Canada is AOK, worked for Nortel for about 10 years.




DIYguy said:


> http://www.electrovaya.com/
> 
> This may very well be the best lithium battery in existence today.... Canadian eh??
> 
> Too bad these guys don't sell to chumps like me....


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> American companies.... won't own any IP in the future.


I suspect that most stuff made in China is IP from this and other countries. American companies are simply moving the jobs from here to there so they can make more money. What we are headed for is nothing more than IP-based companies that make nothing here except gather money for the few at the top.

There are some efforts to start the EV cell industry here but that will last just as long as the current party is in power; the next one will kill it for sure since they can make more money shipping that overseas.

I'll stop here before I make this too political.

JR


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

helluvaengineer96 said:


> Thanks for those links. It is encouraging. However, it looks like all but the last won't be selling to us anytime soon.
> 
> I've emailed electrovaya to see who is their distributor is. Canada is AOK, worked for Nortel for about 10 years.


unfortunately....they don't answer. They are only dealing with the big guys....


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

I got an answer.. but they politely let me know I am not a big guy (if they only knew what I eat.)
Hi Dave,

Thank you for contacting us. We are very pleased to know that you are building your first EV and expect that there will be many more. 

While we would like to be involved in your project, regrettably, we cannot, as we do not carry stock batteries. All EV's require a customized battery system

and we find that manufacturing a single custom unit is not cost effective. 

All the best,

Sincerely​


DIYguy said:


> unfortunately....they don't answer. They are only dealing with the big guys....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

helluvaengineer96 said:


> I got an answer.. but they politely let me know I am not a big guy (if they only knew what I eat.)Hi Dave,
> 
> Thank you for contacting us. We are very pleased to know that you are building your first EV and expect that there will be many more.
> 
> ...


Hey, you did good getting a reply anyways. More than I ever got...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ibatt makes large sized prismatics in PA and NJ. 
http://www.internationalbattery.com/
When I inquired about their cells they asked me how many units I'd need each month. When I said I only wanted a single order of 36 cells, they never responded. So I sent my $4K to China. Probably cost me less anyway even with the shipping. Sad.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Ibatt makes large sized prismatics in PA and NJ.
> http://www.internationalbattery.com/
> When I inquired about their cells they asked me how many units I'd need each month. When I said I only wanted a single order of 36 cells, they never responded. So I sent my $4K to China. Probably cost me less anyway even with the shipping. Sad.


Their Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese (NiCoMax) looks much better than LiFePo4. Significantly better specific energy, and rate of discharge in particular. http://www.internationalbattery.com/pdf/NiCoMax-SpecSheet.pdf


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

I sent them an email last night. There is a very good potential for my company to use them so maybe I'll get a better response. I'll let you know how it goes.

DYIGuy....is right the power per pound (25% better then CALB) and volume (40% better then CALB) is outstanding for the NiCoMax's. Wonder what the price penalty is?



JRP3 said:


> Ibatt makes large sized prismatics in PA and NJ.
> http://www.internationalbattery.com/
> When I inquired about their cells they asked me how many units I'd need each month. When I said I only wanted a single order of 36 cells, they never responded. So I sent my $4K to China. Probably cost me less anyway even with the shipping. Sad.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not that familiar with the NiCoMax cells but the 1C continuous max discharge rate does not seem good.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

This is where I am having a problem with the different data sheets....

CALB lists their Max "Constant" current @ 4 C but only for 30 seconds. Their STD Discharge at 0.3C. 

IB's "Pulse" Current @ 5C without cooling and 7C with cooling this is also for 30 seconds... Their "Continuous" Discharge at 1C.

So*CALB--------------- IB*
100Ah------------- 90 Ah​Max 30 sec disc: 400Amps---------- 450 Amps
Constant disc: 30 Amps------------- 90 Amps

IB has separate higher number listed "with cooling", I wonder what type of cooling they are requiring?

Or am I reading the data sheet wrong? I'll be honest I like IB's data sheet, a lot more information.



JRP3 said:


> I'm not that familiar with the NiCoMax cells but the 1C continuous max discharge rate does not seem good.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Standard discharge is not the same as max constant discharge, which I believe is 3C for CALB.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

This is my frustration with the data sheets.
In my mind constant <> 30 seconds.

In my battery comparison spreadsheet I'm listing current and duration.... Just using peak and continuous, has different meaning for the different venders...

BTW.. I am still talking to IB, but things are moving slowly. I really think I can use their mil specced batteries in a business application (with significant volume) so we are doing down the NDA path. Sadly, I think I'll need to get batteries for my car long before business plans are finalized with IB.

Right now I am leaning towards Thunder... since they physically fit my application the best.

Just got AC50 and Curtis in last week.. Hope adapter plates come in soon.



JRP3 said:


> Standard discharge is not the same as max constant discharge, which I believe is 3C for CALB.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

helluvaengineer96 said:


> Canada is AOK, worked for Nortel for about 10 years.


So how did that work out for you? Did you loose everything?


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

Nah I jumped ship to Intel about 6 months before the telco bubble burst.. left options on the table, but the writing was on the wall. Still see a lot of the Nortel folks around at Cisco, Arris, ect.

I had a brother that actually stayed on with them until about 2005ish, up in Raleigh... That place became a ghost town.

Are you ex-Nortel?



Sunking said:


> So how did that work out for you? Did you loose everything?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

US manufactures has two problems that cannot be overcome; 
Raw lithium is not abundant in the USA and thus has to be imported.
Labor wages, US cannot compete.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

helluvaengineer96 said:


> Are you ex-Nortel?


Yes I worked for them from 1990 to 1994 before leaving and going to MCI which is now Verizon. I worked out of Richardson TX. Went to Raleigh many times for training, even was offered a job in Raleigh (Well Carey) in 1994 for an instructor position. I passed and left the company to work for Nortels largest single customer, MCI-Worldcom. 

It was a shame what happened to Nortel, they made one heck of Switch (DMS product line). No more though all gone. All technology broken into pieces and sold off to their competitors for pennies on the dollar. I have a lot of peers that worked there and still looking for work.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sunking said:


> US manufactures has two problems that cannot be overcome;
> Raw lithium is not abundant in the USA and thus has to be imported.
> Labor wages, US cannot compete.


Sort of. We have lithium mines that are shut down, not because there's no lithium but because the price of lithium is too low to make it profitable. At some point they'll be operating again. Also, lithium is a small portion of LiFePO4 cells. As for labor, I think it's mostly machines building the cells.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

Have to agree with JRP3 here.... labor is a pretty small % of any manufacturing process now-a-days. I can't imagine cell production / testing / visual inspection not being automated. Now mining labor and US regulatory hurtles might be a different matter.

After QE2,3,4, ect.. I don't think US labor rates will be a problem in the near future.



JRP3 said:


> Sort of. We have lithium mines that are shut down, not because there's no lithium but because the price of lithium is too low to make it profitable. At some point they'll be operating again. Also, lithium is a small portion of LiFePO4 cells. As for labor, I think it's mostly machines building the cells.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

I was there from 1990-2000.. From Stone Mountain Ga (DMS-1U) to Alpharetta Ga (Access-Node).

Got a few trips to Tokyo thanks to MCI-Worldcom.... Introduced new firmware for the Japanese market you were entering into in the late 90's.

It was a crazy fun time for the Telco industry... 



Sunking said:


> Yes I worked for them from 1990 to 1994 before leaving and going to MCI which is now Verizon. I worked out of Richardson TX. Went to Raleigh many times for training, even was offered a job in Raleigh (Well Carey) in 1994 for an instructor position. I passed and left the company to work for Nortels largest single customer, MCI-Worldcom.
> 
> It was a shame what happened to Nortel, they made one heck of Switch (DMS product line). No more though all gone. All technology broken into pieces and sold off to their competitors for pennies on the dollar. I have a lot of peers that worked there and still looking for work.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Sunking said:


> US manufactures has problems that cannot be overcome;
> 
> <edit>
> 
> Labor wages, US cannot compete.


The lack of competitive production in this country is easy to understand when you consider that the union member Hi Lo driver in a US assembly plant probably makes more then a chief engineer in a third world plant. 

Then add in all of the useless business management overhead our "teachers" have told us we cannot do without and you can see why one of our major industries is flipping burgers.

We need to get back to making real things in this country. Get our hands dirty again. We out-produced the entire world once, then we let a bunch of crooks steal it away from us and move it offshore so they could get rich without effort or ability. Read Ayn Rand and you will see her story happening now.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> The lack of competitive production in this country is easy to understand when you consider that the union member Hi Lo driver in a US assembly plant probably makes more then a chief engineer in a third world plant.
> 
> Then add in all of the useless business management overhead our "teachers" have told us we cannot do without and you can see why one of our major industries is flipping burgers.
> 
> We need to get back to making real things in this country. Get our hands dirty again. We out-produced the entire world once, then we let a bunch of crooks steal it away from us and move it offshore so they could get rich without effort or ability. Read Ayn Rand and you will see her story happening now.


Please afford me one short hijack....  In the price of our North American products lies the "hidden" cost of our society. The cost of building assembly lines that meet current safety codes, the cost of "somewhat" protecting our environment, our pension plans (now eroding) etc, etc etc. These things are not bad... but when equal trade is allowed with countries that produce products that bear no cost for most of the social systems that we enjoy... it has to erode our economy. Further to this, some countries also subsidize many industries to the point where there selling prices here, are less than the raw material cost. Competing with this is not about working hard, or business management overhead. I could write my own book Jim, I'm one of the "automotive machine casualties" ..... but reborn. 
Please excuse my hijack... and also please REMEMBER.... it's Nov 11th. Rememberance day. The day we pay tribute to all of those who gave of themselves so that we may live in our beautiful free countries.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

DIYguy,

Well said.

Jim


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sort of. We have lithium mines that are shut down, not because there's no lithium but because the price of lithium is too low to make it profitable.


I am no expert on Lithium production, but have a fair understanding of mining. Is it because the Lithium concentration so low in NC and NV as compared to the Lithium Triangle of Argentina, Bolivia, and Chile?

I suspect environmental policy also has a great effect on mining. Lithium is quite a toxic substance requiring a large amount of water to process. Here in the USA with such strict policy and labor laws makes it unprofitable here.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

helluvaengineer96 said:


> I was there from 1990-2000.


I started to work for a company called Wiltell in 1994 after leaving Northern Telecom. Shorty after Willtel was sold to LDDS and the name was changed to WorldCom. Then somewhere around 1999 or so WorldCom bought MCI and changed the name to MCI-WorldCom

From 1994 to about 2001 or there about it was a booming business. I traveled the USA extensively and many trips to Europe and Japan. Money flowed like water. I managed what was called the Power Protection and Electrical Engineering Department which designed all the DC battery plants, UPS, emergency generators, and protective grounding. 

We all knew something was up when LDDS took over because all our time and expenses was charged to Capital Projects, even Operations and administration personnel charged all their time and expense to Capitol Projects. This of course was illegal because it allowed the company to hide real operating cost, so most every dollar coming in looked like profit.

Nortel made a fatal error with MCI-WorldCom. They floated the notes for all the equipment MCI was buying. Nortel also did this for other smaller Telco's, but MCI was by far the largest. Well in 2003 MCI went bankrupt and left Nortel on hook for Billions in unpaid receipts for which they never recovered from.

But it was fun while it lasted. Nortel put on at least 5 or 6 golf tournaments per year with very nice prizes like TV's, Stereos, and trips. They also threw us one heck of a Xmas party every year with all the Bell's and Whistles. Everytime I took personal vacation somehow my flights were upgraded to 1st Class, and room was upgraded to suites. 

Oh wel lI seen the writing on the wall in 2001 and cashed out all options and company 401 K stock so I did well in that respect. I finally got the Axe in 2003, left and opened my own engineering and design firm doing the exact same thing for them now called Verizon making even more money. So I cannot complain, it worked out for me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sunking said:


> I am no expert on Lithium production, but have a fair understanding of mining. Is it because the Lithium concentration so low in NC and NV as compared to the Lithium Triangle of Argentina, Bolivia, and Chile?
> 
> I suspect environmental policy also has a great effect on mining. Lithium is quite a toxic substance requiring a large amount of water to process. Here in the USA with such strict policy and labor laws makes it unprofitable here.


I really don't know the details, just that active mines were shut down because the price of lithium was so low.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_*The lack of competitive production in this country is easy to understand when you consider that the union member Hi Lo driver in a US assembly plant probably makes more then a chief engineer in a third world plant. 

Then add in all of the useless business management overhead our "teachers" have told us we cannot do without and you can see why one of our major industries is flipping burgers.

We need to get back to making real things in this country. Get our hands dirty again. We out-produced the entire world once, then we let a bunch of crooks steal it away from us and move it offshore so they could get rich without effort or ability. Read Ayn Rand and you will see her story happening now.*_

_*Please afford me one short hijack.... In the price of our North American products lies the "hidden" cost of our society. The cost of building assembly lines that meet current safety codes, the cost of "somewhat" protecting our environment, our pension plans (now eroding) etc, etc etc. These things are not bad... but when equal trade is allowed with countries that produce products that bear no cost for most of the social systems that we enjoy... it has to erode our economy. Further to this, some countries also subsidize many industries to the point where there selling prices here, are less than the raw material cost. Competing with this is not about working hard, or business management overhead. I could write my own book Jim, I'm one of the "automotive machine casualties" ..... but reborn. *_

To both of these points I say - *Germany*

Much higher labor costs
Much higher environmental standards

Still lots of profitable manufacturing industry

You guys - and the rest of the English speaking world (including us) got rolled by right wing free market ideologists - and Rand was one of the worst!

If you want to see what has happened go back and read Adam Smith - (Wealth of Nations)
The "inventor" of the "Invisible Hand" would wash his hands of the current free market nutters


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

_To both of these points I say - *Germany*

Much higher labor costs_ _
Much higher environmental standards

Still lots of profitable manufacturing industry_ 

Are you kidding?
What would a pack of LiPoF4 200 ah 150 volt 100% German design and made batteries cost?
$11,000.00 from China
$--------- from Germany
Please fill in the blank and the web address.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The comparison wasn't to China, it was to the US.


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