# Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

I'm unsure on how this gallon per hour is less efficient than a conventional
ICE. If it puts out 8 kwh and that equals a little over 10 hp, isn't that 10
hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph? In my eyes that
equals 45 mpg. What am I missing? 



Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 5:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

<<This is equivalent to just under 18.5% efficient for your generator
and 19.7% for his 8kWh figure. Either way, when you add in the
electric inefficiencies, it's definitely worse than a comparable gas
car.>>

We know EVs are fairly high in efficiency, but a diesel engine is 
still better than a gas version - averaging 35% or more. A gallon of 
diesel has 40kWh of energy, so that gives us 14kWh out the crankshaft 
(at least in a car-sized engine). Even before conversion to 
electricity, that means you are spending $0.25-0.30 per kWh! I've 
tried the SVO route, and my time is worth more than the cost of the 
fuel I saved. If anyone is going to be running an APU on their EV, 
please take accurate measurements of input, output, and cost so we get 
a baseline for discussion.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

> isn't that 10 hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph?
> In my eyes that equals 45 mpg. What am I missing?

I think the EPA would disagree. They define driving cycles that try to
emulate typical urban and freeway driving patterns. That most certainly
includes stopping at traffic lights, climbing hills etc.

I have what I think of as a "small car" (though Tom may disagree ,
currently weighing in at 2400 lbs including driver. Sure, it takes 6.5kW
_at_the_wheels_ to maintain 45mph on a perfectly flat smooth road. But roads
around these parts tend not to be flat, nor particularly smooth.

Steve


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

> isn't that 10 hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph?
> In my eyes that equals 45 mpg. What am I missing?

> I think the EPA would disagree. 

Well IMHO there is the EPA and then there is reality. I am thinking that if
this generator were of the "Long Ranger" type it would be maintaining the
drive batteries at a predetermined level and going up the hills the
batteries would help and going down the hill the drive batteries would get a
little extra charge kind of, well actually just like, my insight. This means
that everything averages out and the Car should be able to maintain that
8kwh speed.

Mark Grasser




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> On 5 Apr 2008 at 17:52, Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > If it puts out 8 kwh and that equals a little over 10 hp, isn't that 10
> > hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph? In my eyes that equals
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

David,
So other then I missed kw vs kwh you don't have an explanation to back the
argument? I was serious, I would like to know why an 8kw generator
charging/powering a small EV can't get the equivalent of 45 mpg thus being
better than, or at least equal to, an equivalent car being powered by
petrol.

Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs



> On 5 Apr 2008 at 17:52, Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > If it puts out 8 kwh and that equals a little over 10 hp, isn't that 10
> > hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph? In my eyes that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Let's say your generator produces 8kWh per gallon.

Saying that you need 8kW to cruise at 45mph isn't accurate because the
8kW is the AC input to the charger, not the mechanical power at the
road. It also doesn't include acceleratong or hills.

So let's say that you have a small, efficient EV that gets 250Wh/mile
as measured at the wall. This is easy to measure and is based more on
reality than on theory; the only difference in this case is that the
"wall" is actually your generator.

Thus, your fuel efficiency is (8kWh/gallon)/(250Wh/mile) = 32mpg

This is still a decent fuel efficiency for an ICE, but nothing
impressive. However, in order to get 32mpg overall, you need an
efficient generator that gets 8kWh/gallon or better, and you also need
an efficient EV that only uses 250Wh/mile at the wall. Many EVs
require more energy than this, and many generators are less efficient
than this, both of which would decrease your fuel efficiency.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Mark Grasser <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David,
> > So other then I missed kw vs kwh you don't have an explanation to back the
> > argument? I was serious, I would like to know why an 8kw generator
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> On 5 Apr 2008 at 20:25, Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > Well IMHO there is the EPA and then there is reality.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > Adding a genset to the Sparrow allowed him to make the longer commute.
> > Presumably the emissions from it weren't much of a concern for him. (People
> > on the EVDL vary in their concern over this issue; so don't misunderstand
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Because 8kw into an EV drivetrain (motor+controller) results in about 8 hp
mechanical power out.
8kw will only move most EVs at about 40-45 mph. So you get 40-45mpg, but
ONLY at 40-45 mph. There are diesel powered vehicles that get 45-50 mpg
at 55-60 mph.
The EXACT same Diesel engine from above would be able to propel the EXACT
same vehicle at about 55-60 mph if it was connected directly to the
transmission instead.
Converting mechanical power to electrical power looses you 20-25% of the
power/energy. Converting the electrical energy BACK into mechanical power
looses you ANOTHER 20-25%. Total lost power/energy is between 35-45%.

> David,
> So other then I missed kw vs kwh you don't have an explanation to back the
> argument? I was serious, I would like to know why an 8kw generator
> charging/powering a small EV can't get the equivalent of 45 mpg thus being
> better than, or at least equal to, an equivalent car being powered by
> petrol.
>
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
>


> > On 5 Apr 2008 at 17:52, Mark Grasser wrote:
> >
> >> If it puts out 8 kwh and that equals a little over 10 hp, isn't that 10
> >> hp able to push a small car at something around 45 mph? In my eyes that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

David, David, David,
How are you today? Good I hope. 


>>> Well IMHO there is the EPA and then there is reality.<<<

My reason for this comment has nothing to do with this discussion as much as
the reality of government regulation. It's just another organization made up
of people with the wrong titles, making rules that make no sense from
formulas that aren't correct for the situation. Basically the same thing
wrong in many other places of government but we won't go there on this list.
So on to the problem I have at hand.

>>>Sigh. I couldn't count the number of times we've had this discussion on
the 
EVDL. Every few months, someone proposes exactly what you're proposing, 
with pretty much the same response. And very often the person reacts just 
as you are.<<<

Now that you mention it I remember two others since I've been here but don't
think I commented on those.

>>>A lot of hobbyists here are involved with EVs because they want to motor 
emissions-free. They don't understand why someone would want to add an APU 
and produce MORE emissions than a conventional ICE would produce on the same

route.<<<

The reason would be to add distance so as to only own an EV but when the
distance can't be made, such as visiting relative 500 miles away the trailer
power unit could be hooked up and go. As for more emissions I have to
disagree. You have NO basis in fact to make this statement.

A proper design would use a small engine of 15 to 20 horse (This really
depends on what the size of your EV is) It would be turned on and off the
maintain the charge in the batteries between some low level and some upper
level. The engine would be run at a load and RPM that runs it at its most
efficient operating speed. Someone will say something about the cat being
cold and the engine being cold so use some battery poser and keep them warm
if needed. My guess though is that this set-up would be used mostly at
freeway speeds thus would probably run continuously.

>>>Others on the EVDL are interested in EVs because they want to avoid using

petroleum for some reason. They don't understand why someone would build an

EV, then add an APU that burns more petroleum than a conventional ICE would 
consume on the same route.<<<

As stated above, "basis in fact". No one has ever provided documentation
that an ICE unit is better environmentally or economically than a properly
constructed and controlled auxiliary PU. 

>>>Of course there are many others whose interest doesn't involve either of 
those factors, but we generally hear from people in the first two categories

when someone proposes an APU.<<<

>>>The usual response from the person proposing the APU is that "I'll only
run 
it once in a while. Surely if 75% of my driving is electric, then I'm 
reducing my emissions and fuel usage by 75%." <<<

I would leave mine at home except when the distance is too far to be battery
only.

>>>But this is seldom correct, because very few APUs have an emissions
profile 
as clean as a modern automotive ICE, or an efficiency as high. The ICE in a

recent model car is very tightly integrated into the vehicle. The ECU 
considers multiple factors in tuning the engine to keep emissions below 
legislated levels while maintaining the best possible fuel efficiency and 
driveability.  It's very difficult for a hobbyist-built APU to duplicate 
this behavior.<<<

I would bet, well I would hope, that the people on the is list, well the
ones that would attempt this, would have the expertise to get this done
correctly. I suppose the general feeling is that a 20 horst lawn tractor
would get used instead of a small 2007 Honda motor or the like, be put
together to run with its computer and exhaust emissions intact and then
governed to run around 3,500 rpm at a load equivalent to the load it would
have if pushing a vehicle, which is exactly what it would be doing.

>>>So part of the reason you're getting this "pushback" from the list is
that 
quite a few EVDL members can't understand why you don't just drive a fuel-
efficient ICE, and not even bother with an EV, if burning fuel is OK with 
you. Heck, you already have an Insight; why not just drive that when the 
destination is beyond EV range? <<<

Truth be known David we do drive the insight everywhere. Excellent
compromise. Will make an excellent second to an EV when mine is finished but
I need to start it first. I am still studying. This thread is just another
study. 

>>>I think the best (certainly the most intriguing) argument for using an
APU 
with an EV was advanced by John Lussmyer a while back. He hung an ICE 
genset on the back of his Sparrow solely because his Sparrow was the only 
vehicle that fully suited his commuting needs. As a motorcycle, it could 
ride the ferry cheaper and get the next available ferry ride while the cars 
waited.<<<

So a family with only EVs that has an APU to share is a bad idea? It is
smarter to have an ICE sitting in the yard until you need it from time to
time? 

>>>All that said, there is one more group you might want to consider when
you 
build a vehicle like you're proposing, and it's not people on the EVDL. 
It's the ordinary folks with no interest in EVs, who happen to live near you

or see you on the road. 
If you live in an area with mandatory I&M, the folks you share the road with

are paying regularly to get their ICE cars "smogged." If they see you 
"cheating" (in their view) by licensing your car as a ZEV, then adding 
emissions to your ZEV, some of them might be a little miffed at you - 
especially if you live in CA and get one of those prized HOV lane passes. 
Such folks might be inclined to see if they can get you in trouble. And in 
at least some states what you are proposing would be illegal. I think it is

in CA.<<<

Well I guess I'm lucky not to live in California than and on the other side
if I'm pulling the APU I must be paying a road tax through the purchase of
petrol.

>>>In any case, good luck with your project. Let us know how it turns out.

I'll be especially interested in the emissions you measure. (You ARE going 
to test it, right?)<<<

I am on this list for the same reason I think many others are on this list.
To learn and understand how to build my EV in the best possible way. I try
to read all that people have to offer to be sure I get it right. At the same
time if I do it right there might be something to sell to others so they do
it better also and maybe save them some money. Then there are the threads
like this one where I can't keep quiet because I think the outcome is all
wrong, at least IMHO.

If you still think me to be dead wrong on this please try one more time to
pound it in as I still see it as a plus. After all the method I just
described is no different that the Chevy Volt or the new Audi EV concept
car.

Mark Grasser



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

"Basis in fact"??!!!??

Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission control system
(ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more emissions than the worst of
modern SUV engines.
This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on numerous
occasions by numerous different people using numerous different test
equipment.
As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much per hour of
operation.

A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, /if/ it had
an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.

If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the emissions of a modern
vehicle ICE, please share with the list, because I've been looking for one
for a while without success.

> emissions-free. They don't understand why someone would want to add an
> APU
> and produce MORE emissions than a conventional ICE would produce on the
> same
>
> route.<<<
>
> The reason would be to add distance so as to only own an EV but when the
> distance can't be made, such as visiting relative 500 miles away the
> trailer
> power unit could be hooked up and go. As for more emissions I have to
> disagree. You have NO basis in fact to make this statement.
>
> A proper design would use a small engine of 15 to 20 horse (This really
> depends on what the size of your EV is) It would be turned on and off the
> maintain the charge in the batteries between some low level and some upper
> level. The engine would be run at a load and RPM that runs it at its most
> efficient operating speed.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

"Basis in fact"??!!!??

Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission control system
(ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more emissions than the worst of
modern SUV engines.

[Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in capable of
having electronic engine control and can be purchased with a CAT> Next time
I am at Home Depot I'll check for you.]

This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on numerous
occasions by numerous different people using numerous different test
equipment.
As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much per hour of
operation.

[I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, was in the
process of being done until some one of your government decided it wasn't
necessary. I bet it to be coming back though. I do know that marine engines
will be required to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an
exhaust system that has water in it. ]


A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, /if/ it had
an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.

If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the emissions of a modern
vehicle ICE, please share with the list, because I've been looking for one
for a while without success.

[There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. Probably a bunch
of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We should visit
the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, remove pistons
and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 cylinder, remove two of the rods
and pistons, put the ECU on it and with a cat would be just what you want.
I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.

Mark Grasser

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in
> > capable of having electronic engine control and can be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs


> Because 8kw into an EV drivetrain (motor+controller) results in about 8 hp
> mechanical power out.
> 8kw will only move most EVs at about 40-45 mph. So you get 40-45mpg, but
> ONLY at 40-45 mph. There are diesel powered vehicles that get 45-50 mpg
> at 55-60 mph.
> The EXACT same Diesel engine from above would be able to propel the EXACT
> same vehicle at about 55-60 mph if it was connected directly to the
> transmission instead.

I've seen parallel hybrids with smaller ICE engines installed into a 
vehicle, and then a electric motor added to boost the fuel economy of the 
vehicle. what if you had an electric drive train, like we use on regular 
conversions, (electric motor- transmission) with a ICE engine inputing power 
into the front of the electric motor ( ICE-electric motor- transmission) 
maybe use a electric clutch to engage the ICE when crusing.

hows that?

Josh and Jen 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs


> Others on the EVDL are interested in EVs because they want to avoid using
> petroleum for some reason. They don't understand why someone would build 
> an
> EV, then add an APU that burns more petroleum than a conventional ICE 
> would
> consume on the same route.

Now my reason for exploring this option is: first off, Wal-Mart is 40 miles 
away, this is a trip we would make twice a month, second, I'd like to use 
bio-diesel in the generator. The reason I think this would be more 
economical, is , I would not have the extra expence of another vehicle ie: 
tags, insurance, as well as other ICE expences.

Is this line of thinking way off base?

Josh and Jen 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

A decent $1500 ICE from Craigslist that you only drive twice a month
will likely be cheaper than an efficient, powerful genset, even
including misc. ICE expenses.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Mark,

This is admittedly anecdotal but I think it's a particularly indicative 
anecdote.

Alan Cocconi is no slouch when it comes to sophisticated engineering and 
design. There are very few who could match his EV expertise. He was the 
brains behind the Sunraycer solar EV and the Impact prototype which became 
the GM EV1.

Alan said that the range extender built for his AC Propulsion '93 Civic 
hatchback got around 32mpg at highway speeds, if memory serves. 

My similar '95 ICE Honda Civic VX hatchback returned 48-52mpg on the 
highway. It had a particularly efficient ICE, but more typical Civic DX 
hatchbacks of the period got around 40-42mpg on the highway. Compare that 
with Alan's mpg using the APU.

I don't recall that Cocconi ever published an emissions profile for his APU, 
but he used a motorcycle engine and I strongly doubt that its exhaust was 
anywhere near as clean as my Civic's - or anyone's.

There is a fair bit of wisdom on this list (and I don't count myself in 
that). People here know whereof they speak. But perhaps you have experience 
or expertise that none of us - or Alan Cocconi - posesses.

So, as I have said to almost every other person who's proposed what you 
propose, there a sure way to settle this. 

Build it. 

Take it to an emissions testing center and have them profile the emissions. 
Then profile a similar factory fitted, well maintained ICE. Scan the 
profiles and post them.

Run your homebrew hybrid for 500 or 1000 miles and record the fuel usage (no 
fair including electric miles - the APU must be in use 100% of the time). 
Run your similar control vehicle over the same course the same distance at 
the same time (to eliminate as many other variables as possible). Record 
its fuel usage. Scan the fuel records and post them.

If you are successful in building an APU that is as clean and fuel-efficient 
as a well-maintained factory ICE, then we will finally be able to say that 
one person has "beaten the system" and built a homebrew hybrid that is the 
equal of a factory ICE. Good luck!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> On 6 Apr 2008 at 22:44, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> > A decent $1500 ICE from Craigslist that you only drive twice a month
> > will likely be cheaper than an efficient, powerful genset, even
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Jeff,
I'd love to see the graph. Could you send it to me at the address provided
below?

Mark Grasser

[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Andre
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

I have a feeling I know where the doubt from everyone on emissions is coming
from.
The Smart uses a 3 cyl turbo diesel made by Mercedes might give an idea of
what
a proper well built diesel engine can do but it will still have particulate
emission about 40% higher than a gas. I was very interested in a diesel
engine
about a year ago and found out it was a rebranded Chinese "thing". It was a
single
cyl 10 hp. Going by the specs you would come to the conclusion that it was
pretty
good and right up there with any thing else. However I managed to see a few
video's
of these things in operation and they might have been a weeeeeeeeeee bit
worse than
spec. On a warm running engine these things were dumping out so much visible
crud
you would thing someone forgot the rings when they built it. And I
eventually found
about 5 videos scattered all over and every one showed the same type of
performance.

So in other words I'd take published specs with a huge large mega grain of
salt ;-]
The ones I saw were "certified" results by some Chinese state organization.

Dave 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Andre
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> >David wrote:
> > Run your homebrew hybrid for 500 or 1000 miles and record the
> > fuel usage (no fair including electric miles - the APU must
> > be in use 100% of the time).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

I have gone to China and Taiwan regularly over the last 7 years. These
stories always make me smile. I've witnessed it in person many times. But
David says not to discuss it here, so I won't do that. Still makes me smile
though. 

Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave King
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:44 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

I have a feeling I know where the doubt from everyone on emissions is coming
from.
The Smart uses a 3 cyl turbo diesel made by Mercedes might give an idea of
what
a proper well built diesel engine can do but it will still have particulate
emission about 40% higher than a gas. I was very interested in a diesel
engine
about a year ago and found out it was a rebranded Chinese "thing". It was a
single
cyl 10 hp. Going by the specs you would come to the conclusion that it was
pretty
good and right up there with any thing else. However I managed to see a few
video's
of these things in operation and they might have been a weeeeeeeeeee bit
worse than
spec. On a warm running engine these things were dumping out so much visible
crud
you would thing someone forgot the rings when they built it. And I
eventually found
about 5 videos scattered all over and every one showed the same type of
performance.

So in other words I'd take published specs with a huge large mega grain of
salt ;-]
The ones I saw were "certified" results by some Chinese state organization.

Dave 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Andre
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

I disagree.

The potential ratio of EV to ICE powered driving is HIGHLY individual.
Knowing just the ICE specific details on polution and mileage I can easily
calculate their direct impact on me. However, having it mixed in with
electric only driving makes it difficult AT BEST to figure their impact
/on my driving style/.
It doesn't matter whether I expect to drive 5% or 50% of my miles with the
ICE, I can easily calculate the combinded pollution and fuel consumption,
but only if I know the ICE only information.

With it mixed in with EV only miles, I first have to make some assumptions
(shudder) and then try to extract the ICE only figures from the combined
figures.


> Part of the reason for a hybrid is to INCLUDE the all electric miles in
> the
> equation. The point is not to make the worst case scenario of the hybrid
> equal the best case scenario of an excellent well tuned and maintained
> ICE.
> The point is to make the combined system performance, and the combined
> PHEV
> miles (many of which will be ALL electric) BETTER than the ICE-only
> version.
> Even if the worst case running the APU is a little worse than a good ICE,
> if
> it's only 20-30 percent of your driving over the course of a year, the
> overall performance is be much better than the ICE only. Especially since
> the worst case miles for an ICE (stop and go slow traffic and short power
> bursts) are where the electric components really shine.
>
>
> Jeff Andre
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Ok, so then we should design EV components, say the battery sub-system,
without regard to the rest of the components, say the controller, motor,
whether it's running through a transmission or direct drive? A range
extender is simply another sub-system used to achieve the objectives of the
design. If yours doesn't include objectives that require that sub-system,
feel free to leave it out.

It's meaningless, however, to evaluate performance of a complex system based
on one component unless your intent is simply to prove a bias for or against
that component. 

When I design buildings, and evaluate energy efficiency, would it be valid
for me to evaluate just the windows, and decide that since I have specified
high quality windows that the house will perform well? What about the rest
of the thermal envelope, HVAC equipment, building orientation, shade
conditions, location, and envelope materials. What about fuel source for
the heating system? Is the heat pump air or ground source? I have to
evaluate the entire system - including assumptions about occupancy, hours of
use, etc. If the client requires night time occupancy, I don't get to
design the building artificial lighting, no matter how good my daylighting
design might be, or how low his electric bill would be if he didn't have
lights.

Just because criteria that impact performance may be subjective (hours of
operation or range of an vehicle) doesn't mean that reasonable assumptions
can't be made. Will they vary on a case by case basis - probably. That
doesn't mean they are invalid or don't impact the outcome. If you really
want to PREDICT performance as opposed to the old "build it then measure it"
process (expensive and time consuming), you have to make a reasoned attempt
to quantify these variables and model the impact. 

Simply ignoring these criteria doesn't mean they aren't real or valid. 

As for assumptions, I'd say most humans make a few thousand of them a day,
and seem to survive just fine. Why? Because they are more often than not
based on extrapolation from experiential and anecdotal data that the
individual trusts. In a design process, assumptions should be minimized,
clearly identified, and managed, but can rarely be eliminated or ignored.



Just my opinion of course.


Jeff Andre
Chapel Hill, NC





> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:37 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> The potential ratio of EV to ICE powered driving is HIGHLY individual.
> Knowing just the ICE specific details on polution and mileage 
> I can easily calculate their direct impact on me. However, 
> having it mixed in with electric only driving makes it 
> difficult AT BEST to figure their impact /on my driving style/.
> It doesn't matter whether I expect to drive 5% or 50% of my 
> miles with the ICE, I can easily calculate the combinded 
> pollution and fuel consumption, but only if I know the ICE 
> only information.
> 
> With it mixed in with EV only miles, I first have to make 
> some assumptions
> (shudder) and then try to extract the ICE only figures from 
> the combined figures.
> 
> 
> > Part of the reason for a hybrid is to INCLUDE the all 
> electric miles 
> > in the equation. The point is not to make the worst case 
> scenario of 
> > the hybrid equal the best case scenario of an excellent 
> well tuned and 
> > maintained ICE.
> > The point is to make the combined system performance, and 
> the combined 
> > PHEV miles (many of which will be ALL electric) BETTER than the 
> > ICE-only version.
> > Even if the worst case running the APU is a little worse 
> than a good 
> > ICE, if it's only 20-30 percent of your driving over the 
> course of a 
> > year, the overall performance is be much better than the ICE only. 
> > Especially since the worst case miles for an ICE (stop and go slow 
> > traffic and short power
> > bursts) are where the electric components really shine.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Andre
> > Chapel Hill, NC
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > Build it.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

> The average smog shop will run the ICE at idle and 2600RPM (22mph if
> they have a dyno). Not remotely representative of on highway emissions,
> at best a telltale to see if anything is blatantly wrong. Unfair test.
> Since they would test the APU in worst case scenario, cycled on and at
> full power. (best scenario is APU off.)

Our emissions test, for any gas vehicle newer than 1981, is a full
dyno test from a stop up to around 60mph. The 1981 and older get the
idle test only.

Diesel's get opacity tested at 30mph, 40mph, and 50mph.

Z

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Now you have me curious if I'm correct or just saw one off brand.

We won't discuss it but if you could nod up n down or side to side
a bit it would help ;-]

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:04 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

I have gone to China and Taiwan regularly over the last 7 years. These
stories always make me smile. I've witnessed it in person many times. But
David says not to discuss it here, so I won't do that. Still makes me smile
though. 

Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave King
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:44 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

I have a feeling I know where the doubt from everyone on emissions is coming
from.
The Smart uses a 3 cyl turbo diesel made by Mercedes might give an idea of
what
a proper well built diesel engine can do but it will still have particulate
emission about 40% higher than a gas. I was very interested in a diesel
engine
about a year ago and found out it was a rebranded Chinese "thing". It was a
single
cyl 10 hp. Going by the specs you would come to the conclusion that it was
pretty
good and right up there with any thing else. However I managed to see a few
video's
of these things in operation and they might have been a weeeeeeeeeee bit
worse than
spec. On a warm running engine these things were dumping out so much visible
crud
you would thing someone forgot the rings when they built it. And I
eventually found
about 5 videos scattered all over and every one showed the same type of
performance.

So in other words I'd take published specs with a huge large mega grain of
salt ;-]
The ones I saw were "certified" results by some Chinese state organization.

Dave 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Andre
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Dave,
You lost me. Email me off list and fill me in on what you are requesting.

Mark Grasser
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave King
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:29 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

Now you have me curious if I'm correct or just saw one off brand.

We won't discuss it but if you could nod up n down or side to side
a bit it would help ;-]

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:04 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

I have gone to China and Taiwan regularly over the last 7 years. These
stories always make me smile. I've witnessed it in person many times. But
David says not to discuss it here, so I won't do that. Still makes me smile
though. 

Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave King
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:44 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

I have a feeling I know where the doubt from everyone on emissions is coming
from.
The Smart uses a 3 cyl turbo diesel made by Mercedes might give an idea of
what
a proper well built diesel engine can do but it will still have particulate
emission about 40% higher than a gas. I was very interested in a diesel
engine
about a year ago and found out it was a rebranded Chinese "thing". It was a
single
cyl 10 hp. Going by the specs you would come to the conclusion that it was
pretty
good and right up there with any thing else. However I managed to see a few
video's
of these things in operation and they might have been a weeeeeeeeeee bit
worse than
spec. On a warm running engine these things were dumping out so much visible
crud
you would thing someone forgot the rings when they built it. And I
eventually found
about 5 videos scattered all over and every one showed the same type of
performance.

So in other words I'd take published specs with a huge large mega grain of
salt ;-]
The ones I saw were "certified" results by some Chinese state organization.

Dave 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jeff Andre
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs

It's not diesel, but ....

Suzuki Swift 1.0L (993 cc) straight-3 engine giving 50 hp (37 kW). The
engine is very light, weighing only 63 kg.

It's tiny, it has excellent BSFC of 250-280 g/kwh in a fairly large power
range of 40-80Nm of torque at 1200-4100 RPM, and has a full engine
management computer available & CAT already designed and specified by the
MFG.

I don't know if we can post attachments on this list (never tried), but I
attached a BSFC graph for this engine.



Jeff Andre'
Chapel Hill, NC



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:52 PM
> To: [email protected]; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs
> 
> "Basis in fact"??!!!??
> 
> Even a 3.5 hp engine (i.e. lawn mower) without an emission 
> control system (ECU and Catalytic converer) produces FAR more 
> emissions than the worst of modern SUV engines.
> 
> [Peter, You are too reactionary. Every lawn tractor made in 
> capable of having electronic engine control and can be 
> purchased with a CAT> Next time I am at Home Depot I'll check 
> for you.]
> 
> This IS FACT, proven fact, easily proven fact, proven on 
> numerous occasions by numerous different people using 
> numerous different test equipment.
> As I recall the number is something like 100 times as much 
> per hour of operation.
> 
> [I already know this also but Like I said, it can be done, 
> was in the process of being done until some one of your 
> government decided it wasn't necessary. I bet it to be coming 
> back though. I do know that marine engines will be required 
> to have cats by 2009. Try creating a cat system in an exhaust 
> system that has water in it. ]
> 
> 
> A 15-20 hp engine /might/ be as low as a modern vehicle ICE, 
> /if/ it had an ECU and Catalytic converter. I know of no such engine.
> 
> If you know of one that HAS BEEN PROVEN to match the 
> emissions of a modern vehicle ICE, please share with the 
> list, because I've been looking for one for a while without success.
> 
> [There's one in my driveway under the hood of my insight. 
> Probably a bunch
> of them in 3 and 4 cylinder small cars all over the US. We 
> should visit
> the EAA, those guys are known to cut engine blocks in half, 
> remove pistons and rods not used. I bet you could take a 4 
> cylinder, remove two of the rods and pistons, put the ECU on 
> it and with a cat would be just what you want.
> I'll look at it, sounds feasible to me.
> 
> Mark Grasser
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

off-list reply because I been there done that with the EVDL.

Hang in there. Their facts don't allow for your ability to make 
intelligent choices, and anyway what do you care what they think?
If you start with a propane generator it will be pretty clean. There are 
sources of small engine cats, too. Pretty much everything ( ie. small 
engines) is going to be required to have cats soon I think.

You *could* try hydrogen in a really small genset, but it sounds like 
you are building a car, and storage is pretty-darn-expensive still.

If you want to have a discussion about this, I am looking for tohers who 
are interested. My projects are aimed at ultra-light vehicles and light 
vehicles, so my needs may not match yours.

a 3-5 Kw genset uses about a half-gallon per hour off the shelf with a 
cheap little carb and crappy construction. If your vehicle runs at an 
average 8Kwh, then a 4Kw genny is going to improve your range ( in my 
case allow me to buy a much smaller battery pack in Lithium instead of 
lead). I am thinking a 50cc bike or scooter motor might be just the 
thing here. For a car a 125cc or 250cc would get to 10 Kw, I think.

cheers


John Fisher



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> > David,
> > So other then I missed kw vs kwh you don't have an explanation to back the
> > argument? I was serious, I would like to know why an 8kw generator
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

<<< off-list reply because I been there done that with the EVDL.

Hang in there. Their facts don't allow for your ability to make
intelligent choices, and anyway what do you care what they think? >>>

Um, Freudian slip or self-fulfilling prophesy?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> On 7 Apr 2008 at 16:03, Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > I have gone to China and Taiwan regularly over the last 7 years. These
> > stories always make me smile. I've witnessed it in person many times. But
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

This is really old, but I wanted to cry foul on a statement no one 
challenged that is way past merely wrong.



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Because 8kw into an EV drivetrain (motor+controller) results in about 8 hp
> > mechanical power out.
> > 8kw will only move most EVs at about 40-45 mph. So you get 40-45mpg, but
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Converting mechanical power to electrical power loses 20-25% of the
> >> power. Converting the electrical energy BACK into mechanical power
> >> loses ANOTHER 20-25%. Total lost power/energy is between 35-45%.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> As electric motors get larger they tend to get more efficient.
> >>>
> >>> We aren't talking about the huge motors in trains, but the relatively
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> Converting mechanical power to electrical power loses 20-25% of the
> >>> power. Converting the electrical energy BACK into mechanical power
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

>> If you would bother to look up the facts,
>
> You know, Peter, that's really insulting and not called for.

I didn't think it was insulting, but I admit I was getting annoyed that
you are disputing published facts because they don't agree with your
personal beliefs.

Especially when you try to tell me what I'm thinking or believing.

>> When yo do the math, and take into consideration that the motor doesn't
>> operate at it's peak efficiency point most of the time, 80% is pretty
>> close.
>
> Ah, you're confusing "peak efficiency" with "efficiency at peak" (peak
> something else).

No I'm not. "Peak Efficiency" is a single point on the torque curve. At
any given voltage it occurs at a single RPM/Torque point.
There are numerous "near" peak efficiency points that occur near this
point, but technically they are not the "peak" efficiency point.
Every readily available motor that I have seen torque charts on also
suffers from lower efficiency when operated below it's rate voltage.
If you have a 120V motor in a 120V EV, then it is ALWAYS operating below
it's rated voltage unless you bypass the controller.
If you are running at 10% duty cycle, then the motor is seeing ~12V and if
you look at a 12V torque chart for a 120V ADC motor, the "peak" efficiency
point is below 80%, way below it.
Further more, the NASA paper recently posted shows that a motor operating
at a PWM average voltage of 12V is less efficient than the same motor
runing on 12V straight DC.
Finally ask any EV controller manufacturer what their controller
efficiency is, I'm not aware of any the exceed 98%.

>
>> If you would bother to
>
> Again I think you're really being inappropriate and insulting and I
> think you owe me an apology.

Fair enough, if you apologize for calling me a liar, then I will apologize
for saying that you haven't bothered looking up the facts.

>> look up the specs of typical generator heads like
>> the one described in the original post, 80% is generous, especially when
>> you add in the AC to DC conversion.
>>
>>> I'm sure that you believe what you say, but you're misinterpreting the
>>> data somehow.
>>
>> I believe it because, unlike you I looked it up.
>
> But you must admit, that does not exclude the possibility that you
> misinterpreted what you looked up.

If you can show me how I misinterpreted the facts, then I will admit that
I did. It's been a while since I took any math classes. so maybe I'm
getting rusty, but as far as I can recall, 79% efficient is less efficient
than 80% efficient, the same goes for 78%, 77%, etc.
I don't see how this is open to "interpretation" but I'm certainly willing
to learn.

>
>>> For instance, an EV drag-racer probably does lose 20% of its energy in
>>> the windings of the motor... for 12.318 seconds  but darn well not
>>> continuously.
>>
>> See, now you're just making things up. Why don't you look up the facts?
>> try this torque chart:
>> http://www.evparts.com/img/mt2120torquecurvebyus.PDF
>>
>> It shows that a 9" ADC running at 1200 amps (kind of pokey for a drag
>> racer these days) is running at approx 55% efficiency.
>>
>> If you want to post some REAL information that disproves my statement,
>> go
>> ahead, but don't try to prove your argument by making up numbers.
>
> Peter, I think you're really being beyond inappropriate here, and I'm
> not going to continue this discussion with you.

Ok, I'm stumped. Do you mean that you didn't make this 20% figure up? If
so how did you measure it? If you didn't measure it, can you post where
you saw it published?

I will happily, and publicly, apologize for saying you made it up, if you
can show that you didn't.

P.s. If you can't show how I "misinterpreted" the facts, I'd like a public
apology for your claims that I did.


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >The system in a diesel-electric locomotive is 100 times larger. A 1000
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> > Can you explain why that is unavoidable?
> 
> > As for the battery losses, that only applies partially. If the vehicle
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Neon John wrote:
> > I'd be afraid to even guess at the efficiency but the 1000 hp switch
> > engine that I ran for TVA for a couple of years definitely was NOT
> > highly efficient... Each truck set was cooled by a very high
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Neon John wrote:
> >> I'd be afraid to even guess at the efficiency but the 1000 hp switch
> >> engine that I ran for TVA for a couple of years definitely was NOT
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 
> > Fair enough, if you apologize for calling me a liar
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*



> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> >> Fair enough, if you apologize for calling me a liar
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Diesel APUs*

Guys, can't we put this to rest?

A little tolerance, please. People insult other people every day. Sometimes 
you just have to ignore it and walk away. Better that than taking up list 
bandwidth with a personal feud.

Deal with this issue offlist, please.

But remember :

1. Thou shalt not be excessively annoying.

2. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/



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----------

