# TESLA AutoPilot fatality



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

From the description it sounds like an unavoidable accident - a truck pulling across the road in front of you - and then he had the bad luck to miss the front or rear and go straight underneath the trailer


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

The truck driver said the Tesla driver was watching a movie so he was aware there was a car in the area so wtf did he run over him for ?
As a mechanic Im wary of machines, they simply will never be as intelligent as humans and will never have the level of perception we have.
Main problem with machines is, because they are so fkn logical they dont know when they are making a mistake ie everything they do is for a reason and that reasoning is according to their limited perception.
It was always just going to be a matter of time before someone got killed.


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

MIT Technology Review - Why Self-Driving Cars Must Be Programmed to Kill - Self-driving cars are already cruising the streets. But before they can become widespread, carmakers must solve an impossible ethical dilemma of algorithmic morality.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542626/why-self-driving-cars-must-be-programmed-to-kill/


----------



## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

Interesting article, but a bit of a no brainer - human self preservation mode will usually have a human attempt to protect themselves first. How they actually attempt to protect themselves will vary though based on many factors. Reflexes, experience, training, mental reaction and in some cases sheer luck will ultimately decide how they react. Morality and ethics won't, they're only a luxury afforded to those making decisions after the fact or, as in the case of the discussion of the article, before the fact.

The problem facing all autonomous vehicles is who is responsible for making life threatening decisions. Once you move the decision making process away from the driver of the vehicle you have placed it in the hands of the manufacturer of the vehicle. Not a lot of manufacturers are going to be willing to take that leap of faith primarily because of legal repercussions, regardless of any moral or ethical stance they may choose to take.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Accident data says to me: #1 darwins law of genetics at work on behalf of the driver, however he may have already reproduced. #2 data suggests there was no software check to see if the tesla would fit.


----------



## Electric Avenue (Jul 11, 2016)

RIPPERTON said:


> The truck driver said the Tesla driver was watching a movie so he was aware there was a car in the area so wtf did he run over him for ?


The truck driver didn't run over the Tesla. The Tesla ran under the truck. There's a difference. If you noticed, nowhere at any time was the truck driver assumed to have been in the wrong.


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

The truck driver had already allowed one car to pass, and when saw the Tesla crest a hill with limited sight distance, he had already committed to the turn. He tried to speed up to give the driver room to avoid a collision, but the Tesla moved from the fast to the slow lane, causing it to pass under the trailer rather than hit the rear wheels or clear the truck altogether. He was also probably speeding, and he was known as a daredevil with numerous speeding citations.

After the Tesla smashed through a couple of fences it struck a utility pole which finally stopped it. The truck driver went to the car to provide assistance, after presumably calling 911, and that is where he heard the Harry Potter movie playing on a separate DVD player.

Truck trailers should have side skirts that are at a height where they can be detected by cameras, radar, and headlights from a low-riding vehicle such as the Tesla. 

http://www.truck-drivers-money-saving-tips.com/side-skirts.html



















Then there is the "transparent truck" that is similar to a Rochester cloaking device that could make it appear invisible:
http://www.gizmag.com/samsung-safety-truck-cameras-screens/38122/


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

So the truck driver decided to pull out in front of a car on the highway?

He couldn't wait until the road was clear?


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

As I said, but perhaps not clearly enough, the road was clear when the truck driver started his turn. But the Tesla was hidden behind a hill and he didn't see it until he had already committed to the turn, so he tried to get out of the way. But a semi truck loaded with blueberries can't accelerate very quickly. He said the Tesla was going so fast he didn't even see it as it ran under the trailer. 

One should always be aware of situations where sight distance is limited, and there might be a stalled vehicle, debris in the roadway, animals, potholes, and other hazards that might not be visible until there is little time to react. Even a situation like white-out, with lots of sun glare and a white trailer that blends into the background, should be a trigger to slow down and proceed with due caution. 

There is a lengthy thread on the HSM forum that discusses this in depth:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/70888-quot-Tessy-quot-only-the-beginning?highlight=tesla


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

If you are going to block a road for longer than the sight distance you should NOT turn there

A truck driver is up high - he can see quite well

Turning on a high speed road where he cannot see something coming is simply not acceptable

If his vehicle could not make that turn then he should not have been driving down there

If somebody blocks a highway an accident caused by that blockage is his fault


----------



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Duncan said:


> If you are going to block a road for longer than the sight distance you should NOT turn there
> 
> A truck driver is up high - he can see quite well
> 
> ...


Lol, love these assertions, but it sounds like the driver went when it was clear and a speeding asshole came over the hill at a bad time, and without paying any attention.

In the states, fault is shared to a degree, just by virtue of the fact that they both left the house that day.



Duncan said:


> If somebody blocks a highway an accident caused by that blockage is his fault


Couldn't be more wrong, drivers need to be alert. If there are no skid marks then you are even more culpable, on a text? sameo sameo, it was a kid you hit while screwing around? you would hope your conscious would never let you get behind the wheel again. 

Could be a tree or deer or another accident, you MUST PAY ATTENTION AT ALL TIMES END OF STORY


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

In fact...
if the tesla driver was paying attention and not goofing off playing with his autopilot there wouldnt have been an accident.
Bottom line, AutoPilot is just a toy and a dangerous one at that.

Still cant picture the layout of the accident, any diagrams ?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi dcb
Being an arse-hole as usual I see

If I drive a truck across a highway and block it the accident is my fault

I think you will find that on Auto the S Type can only exceed the speed limit by a small amount

Yes he should have been paying attention

But a truck driver is meant to be a professional - he is paid to take his massive truck SAFELY across the country

There is NO WAY he should be crossing a highway when his sight-line is such that he cannot see that it is clear 

If he cannot see that it is clear for long enough to cross the carriageway he should take a different route


----------



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

what, you make bunch of bullshit statements and call me an arse-hole?

"I'm just gonna keep going to close my eyes and keep kicking and if you get kicked its your fault".

This was completely avoidable by the driver, the truck was in motion before the car appeared is the story, not every crossing is nice and tidy.

I should put my computer on autopilot and have it call you an arse-hole constantly, and I will blame you because you should have seen it coming.


Nevermind the fact that tesla should have seen this coming, or the car "driver".

Seriously, I'm surprised musk didn't tweet his usual "We were expecting this to happen" like whenever spaceX blows up.


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Here is a map of the accdent:










Here is an image of the road where the accident occurred. Hard to say just what the sight distance might be, but it looks like a couple hundred feet. If the Tesla was going 100 ft/sec (68 MPH) he (or the auto-pilot) would have two seconds to react. Immediate braking might have made the crash survivable, and a swerve into the oncoming lane (assuming it was clear), or a swerve to the right, into the weeds, was another less catastrophic option. Actually there is a very wide grassy divider that could have been used for an evasive maneuver.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So this is the last thing the Tesla driver would have seen if he wasnt watching Harry Potter.
That is an extremely long straight piece of road there. Its 5.5km back to the last kink in the road


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Moving the viewpoint back a few hundred feet, you can see the slight rise and dip in the road. The Google camera sits rather high, but from the height of the Tesla, a truck in the dip where the intersection is may have been somewhat obscured. Perhaps the Tesla autopilot thought the truck was two vehicles, based on the wheels, and tried to pass between them. There was certainly enough space to have veered behind the truck without even going into the opposing lanes.










The road seems flat enough that the sight distance should have been sufficient for the truck driver to have seen the Tesla, and perhaps he did, but assumed the driver would slow down enough or steer out of the way. If the truck were moving 9 ft/sec (6 MPH), and its length was 50 feet, it should have cleared the path in about 5 seconds. So the Tesla would have been OK if it were going 100 ft/sec and the truck was 500 ft down the road. A 6 ft wide vehicle at 500 feet is an arc of 0.69 degrees. Normal visual acuity is about 1 minute of arc, or 1/60 degree. So you should be able to detect a vehicle at a distance of 3400 feet.
https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationRes...e/PenetrantTest/Introduction/visualacuity.htm

Here is a good reference for highway sight distance. At 65 MPH, reaction time eats up 240 feet and stopping distance is 405 feet. 
http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/sight_distance.htm


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

So is the sight distance "a couple of hundred feet" or 5.5Km?

If it is only "a couple of hundred feet" - then the Trucker should NOT have done that maneuver

If it was 5.5km then the trucker should have waited until the road was clear and he had enough time to complete his maneuver

Paul Posted while I was writing

There was adequate sight distance - the truck driver pulled out on the Tesla and caused the accident


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There needs to be a much more thorough and professional analysis than mere armchair speculation and theoretical mental gymnastics. As for the truck causing the accident, that was only part of the set of contributory factors. It probably took 10 seconds for the truck to start the turn and arrive at the point where the crash occurred. That means that the Tesla should have been able to detect the movement at a distance of 10*100 ft/sec or 1000 feet, which is plenty of time to take normal accident avoidance maneuvers of braking and steering around the obstruction. 

It is very common, and should be expected, for trucks to merge into high speed traffic, and drivers must recognize that and adjust their speed and lane position to give right of way. Most of the blame seems to be on the Tesla driver who was not paying attention, and on the Tesla's deficiencies in recognizing and properly responding to the situation. It seems that you have some sort of "issue" with truck drivers, perhaps a close call or an accident you experienced that was attributable to unsafe driving.

I found a topo map showing the terrain at the intersection where the accident occurred, but it doesn't show enough detail to determine the sight distance. Contour interval is 10 ft. Grid appears to be 1000 meters (3281 ft):










http://www.pickatrail.com/topo-map/b/7.5x7.5/bronson-ne-fl.html


----------



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

another one, that guard rail should have known better.

http://gas2.org/2016/07/11/breaking-news-another-tesla-model-x-crashes-autopilot/


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Yeah, those guardrail posts can jump out into the road with no warning when it's their mating season! 

Here's yet another, July 1, in PA:

http://www.recode.net/2016/7/6/12109998/nhtsa-tesla-probe-autopilot


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Plot thickens, theres a difference between the side of a truck and an overhead sign. But who is Joshua Brown and why was he "testing" an experimental version of AutoPilot while supposedly watching Harry Potter ? The crash had nothing to do with AutoPilot, it was the Emergency Brake System that was supposed to detect the truck.
http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/...rash-that-killed-driver-during-autopilot-test


----------

