# [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching
the regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to honor
that voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into
thermal cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current limit
> > mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V. PFC-30
goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V. Yellow limits
light is blinking. From the PFC-30 manual: 

"If the yellow LIMITS LED is blinking, then it is indicating that there is
an over
temperature condition and the charger is in thermal cutback mode."

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching the
regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to honor that
voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into thermal
cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
> > limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mine does the same thing. Pack voltage 272 nominal. Nicads, 1.2 volts per cell, 227 cells. I charge to around 360 (1.6 vpc). It goes into limit pretty quickly. Current starts around 25 amps, but cuts back. That's just the way it works for me.

Dave



> "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V. PFC-30
> > goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V. Yellow limits
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V. PFC-30
> > goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V. Yellow
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I should add another comment to my post about my charger cutting back. I'm pretty sure it's acting normal and there's nothing wrong. Mine is an older unit and might not be as sophisticated as newer models. I know Rich has made improvements since mine was produced, and I'm sure they handle heat better now. But mine is doing what it needs to do to live a long life, and I'm good with that. If not, all I have to do is buy a newer model. Trust in the Madman.

Dave



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Bill Dennis wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave wrote:
> 
> > Trust in the Madman.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill when the pack is largely depleted watch the voltage on a meter. See
if it stays out of current limit say when your pack is at 119v. Then watch
at what voltage the light starts blinking. If it stays off until 121v or
so then try adjusting the trim pot up slightly until it goes off. Then
repeat the trim process until you get it up to 124.5v. It sounds like its
doing exactly what it should.

Mike


> "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V. PFC-30
> > goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V. Yellow
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

what are you turning up? Output voltage?
What is the pack you are using and which
voltage and current is the PFC30 delivering
when you see it go into limit? 
It may be normal behavior, it may not,
at this point we have too little info to judge.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:39 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
the charger, the trunk is open, and the temp in my garage is 74F (23C).
Does anyone else have this problem? Usually it's not an issue, since I
charge at low current overnight. But this morning I was out and about,
and I wanted to charge the car again to take it downtown for the
evening.

Thanks.

Bill

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'll fire off an email to Rick. It's rather disappointing to have a charger
billed as capable of 30A that can't even produce 25A at room temperature.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 4:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

I should add another comment to my post about my charger cutting back. I'm
pretty sure it's acting normal and there's nothing wrong. Mine is an older
unit and might not be as sophisticated as newer models. I know Rich has made
improvements since mine was produced, and I'm sure they handle heat better
now. But mine is doing what it needs to do to live a long life, and I'm good
with that. If not, all I have to do is buy a newer model. Trust in the
Madman.

Dave



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Bill Dennis wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, I'm referring to the amperage knob. I don't have a meter on it right
now, but since the knob is at maybe 60-65%, the amps should be somewhere
around 20A or a little higher. The pack is lithium. The cutoff voltage is
set at 124.5V, which is about 3.45V/cell. Pack started out at 118V today.
I consider "halfway" to be when the white marker on the amperage knob is
pointing straight up.

1) Plugged in charger
2) Turned on charger breaker with amps down to zero
3) Slowly turned amp knob past halfway
4) Pack started charging
5) Measured voltage at 120.6V
6) Went inside for 2 or 3 minutes
7) Came back out to garage to find charger yellow limits LED blinking

This has happened to me in the past whenever I've tried to charge with knob
at much more than half way.

Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:09 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

what are you turning up? Output voltage?
What is the pack you are using and which voltage and current is the PFC30
delivering when you see it go into limit? 
It may be normal behavior, it may not,
at this point we have too little info to judge.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:39 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current limit
mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around the
charger, the trunk is open, and the temp in my garage is 74F (23C).
Does anyone else have this problem? Usually it's not an issue, since I
charge at low current overnight. But this morning I was out and about, and
I wanted to charge the car again to take it downtown for the evening.

Thanks.

Bill

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike, I don't understand your instructions. It's not the blue LED that's
blinking. It's the yellow current limit LED. The pack already cuts off at
the correct voltage of 124.5V. I have the charger dip switches set to have
the PFC-30 stop charging as soon as the voltage set point is reached. But
this is happening before the blue LED even comes on.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill when the pack is largely depleted watch the voltage on a meter. See if
it stays out of current limit say when your pack is at 119v. Then watch
at what voltage the light starts blinking. If it stays off until 121v or
so then try adjusting the trim pot up slightly until it goes off. Then
repeat the trim process until you get it up to 124.5v. It sounds like its
doing exactly what it should.

Mike


> "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
> > PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,
Current limit and pack reaching voltage limit are two entirely
independent things.
Current limit is simply the charger reducing its output current below
the level
that you have chosen, because it cannot deliver the power and stay at a
safe temp
so it limits itself, which only means that you have to wait longer
before the
needed Ahs are put in.
The pack reaching voltage limit happenes towards the end of bulk charge
and this may take a little longer than you expect due to the reduced
charger current, but the voltage limit should not be affected by the
charger
cutting back in current - it will just take longer.

BTW, the name PFC30 means that it is limited to 30A at *either* input or
output,
whichever is greater, right?

Are you incidentally charging with an extension cord at 120V AV?
If the input voltage sags due to high resistance in the AC mains then
it could be that the input 30A is reached (and the charger will get hot)
when it is only drawing for example 90V x 30A = 2700W.
When it delivers current into a 120V DC pack, that means that it will
hardly be able to deliver 22A DC so if you commanded more than 22A
it might show a current limit not from overheating but because AC input
current is the limit? 
Or are you charging from 240V AC?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:33 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
Yellow limits light is blinking. From the PFC-30 manual: 

"If the yellow LIMITS LED is blinking, then it is indicating that there
is an over temperature condition and the charger is in thermal cutback
mode."

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching
the regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to
honor that voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into
thermal cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
> > limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You say "this is happening" - do you mean that the charger stops
charging
with the yellow LED blinking, not continuing it charging until it hits
the voltage set point (blue LED)? 


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 4:46 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Mike, I don't understand your instructions. It's not the blue LED
that's blinking. It's the yellow current limit LED. The pack already
cuts off at the correct voltage of 124.5V. I have the charger dip
switches set to have the PFC-30 stop charging as soon as the voltage set
point is reached. But this is happening before the blue LED even comes
on.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill when the pack is largely depleted watch the voltage on a meter.
See if it stays out of current limit say when your pack is at 119v.
Then watch
at what voltage the light starts blinking. If it stays off until 121v
or
so then try adjusting the trim pot up slightly until it goes off. Then
repeat the trim process until you get it up to 124.5v. It sounds like
its
doing exactly what it should.

Mike


> "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
> > PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, the charger is still charging, but the yellow LED is flashing, meaning
that it has reduced the current due to thermal cutback.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

You say "this is happening" - do you mean that the charger stops charging
with the yellow LED blinking, not continuing it charging until it hits the
voltage set point (blue LED)? 


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 4:46 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Mike, I don't understand your instructions. It's not the blue LED that's
blinking. It's the yellow current limit LED. The pack already cuts off at
the correct voltage of 124.5V. I have the charger dip switches set to have
the PFC-30 stop charging as soon as the voltage set point is reached. But
this is happening before the blue LED even comes on.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill when the pack is largely depleted watch the voltage on a meter.
See if it stays out of current limit say when your pack is at 119v.
Then watch
at what voltage the light starts blinking. If it stays off until 121v
or
so then try adjusting the trim pot up slightly until it goes off. Then
repeat the trim process until you get it up to 124.5v. It sounds like
its
doing exactly what it should.

Mike


> "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
> > PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Misunderstanding on my part. Bill said the yellow limit goes flashing.
When mine hits the voltage regulation point the yellow limit light goes
solid. That's how you adjust the voltage setpoint right. When the yellow
light comes in solid the charger is limiting current to hold the voltage
constant. But Bill said his limit light was flashing. So there may be
something wrong. Need to call Madman tomorrow.

Mike


> "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Bill,
> > Current limit and pack reaching voltage limit are two entirely
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Boy, I must be explaining things really badly if I'm coming across as not
even knowing the difference between current limit and reaching voltage
limit.  

I am charging from a 220V outlet over a #8 cord. Charging is indicating
that it's going into thermal cutback mode, not that it's reaching voltage
set point. 

Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill,
Current limit and pack reaching voltage limit are two entirely independent
things.
Current limit is simply the charger reducing its output current below the
level that you have chosen, because it cannot deliver the power and stay at
a safe temp so it limits itself, which only means that you have to wait
longer before the needed Ahs are put in.
The pack reaching voltage limit happenes towards the end of bulk charge and
this may take a little longer than you expect due to the reduced charger
current, but the voltage limit should not be affected by the charger cutting
back in current - it will just take longer.

BTW, the name PFC30 means that it is limited to 30A at *either* input or
output, whichever is greater, right?

Are you incidentally charging with an extension cord at 120V AV?
If the input voltage sags due to high resistance in the AC mains then it
could be that the input 30A is reached (and the charger will get hot) when
it is only drawing for example 90V x 30A = 2700W.
When it delivers current into a 120V DC pack, that means that it will hardly
be able to deliver 22A DC so if you commanded more than 22A it might show a
current limit not from overheating but because AC input current is the
limit? 
Or are you charging from 240V AC?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:33 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
Yellow limits light is blinking. From the PFC-30 manual: 

"If the yellow LIMITS LED is blinking, then it is indicating that there is
an over temperature condition and the charger is in thermal cutback mode."

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching the
regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to honor that
voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into thermal
cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
> > limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK, that is very clear.
Does the PFC30 have a fan inside?
Could it be that the way it is installed
cause stagnant air inside and heating up
and can you notice the heating up on the outside?
It is possible that the current cutback circuit is
too sensitive, but more likely that it is working 
well and there is indeed something getting hotter
than usual...

Success,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:09 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Boy, I must be explaining things really badly if I'm coming across as
not even knowing the difference between current limit and reaching
voltage limit.  

I am charging from a 220V outlet over a #8 cord. Charging is indicating
that it's going into thermal cutback mode, not that it's reaching
voltage set point. 

Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill,
Current limit and pack reaching voltage limit are two entirely
independent things.
Current limit is simply the charger reducing its output current below
the level that you have chosen, because it cannot deliver the power and
stay at a safe temp so it limits itself, which only means that you have
to wait longer before the needed Ahs are put in.
The pack reaching voltage limit happenes towards the end of bulk charge
and this may take a little longer than you expect due to the reduced
charger current, but the voltage limit should not be affected by the
charger cutting back in current - it will just take longer.

BTW, the name PFC30 means that it is limited to 30A at *either* input or
output, whichever is greater, right?

Are you incidentally charging with an extension cord at 120V AV?
If the input voltage sags due to high resistance in the AC mains then it
could be that the input 30A is reached (and the charger will get hot)
when it is only drawing for example 90V x 30A = 2700W.
When it delivers current into a 120V DC pack, that means that it will
hardly be able to deliver 22A DC so if you commanded more than 22A it
might show a current limit not from overheating but because AC input
current is the limit? 
Or are you charging from 240V AC?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:33 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
Yellow limits light is blinking. From the PFC-30 manual: 

"If the yellow LIMITS LED is blinking, then it is indicating that there
is an over temperature condition and the charger is in thermal cutback
mode."

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching
the regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to
honor that voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into
thermal cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
> > limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It sounds like something must be wrong inside the charger. There's plenty
of air space around both sides of the PFC-30 (I can post a picture if that
would help) and the trunk is open, so the air probably isn't stagnant. I
can hear the internal fan running and feel air being sucked in on one end
and expelled out the other. I've sent an email to Manzanita Micro. 

A J1772 charger has recently been installed near where I work, and I've been
hoping to take advantage of it to charger for 1/2 hour during lunch. But if
I can't put 30A into the pack, it won't do me much more good than the 15A
I'm already getting out of the 120V charge station in town. 

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 6:23 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

OK, that is very clear.
Does the PFC30 have a fan inside?
Could it be that the way it is installed cause stagnant air inside and
heating up and can you notice the heating up on the outside?
It is possible that the current cutback circuit is too sensitive, but more
likely that it is working well and there is indeed something getting hotter
than usual...

Success,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:09 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Boy, I must be explaining things really badly if I'm coming across as not
even knowing the difference between current limit and reaching voltage
limit.  

I am charging from a 220V outlet over a #8 cord. Charging is indicating
that it's going into thermal cutback mode, not that it's reaching voltage
set point. 

Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill,
Current limit and pack reaching voltage limit are two entirely independent
things.
Current limit is simply the charger reducing its output current below the
level that you have chosen, because it cannot deliver the power and stay at
a safe temp so it limits itself, which only means that you have to wait
longer before the needed Ahs are put in.
The pack reaching voltage limit happenes towards the end of bulk charge and
this may take a little longer than you expect due to the reduced charger
current, but the voltage limit should not be affected by the charger cutting
back in current - it will just take longer.

BTW, the name PFC30 means that it is limited to 30A at *either* input or
output, whichever is greater, right?

Are you incidentally charging with an extension cord at 120V AV?
If the input voltage sags due to high resistance in the AC mains then it
could be that the input 30A is reached (and the charger will get hot) when
it is only drawing for example 90V x 30A = 2700W.
When it delivers current into a 120V DC pack, that means that it will hardly
be able to deliver 22A DC so if you commanded more than 22A it might show a
current limit not from overheating but because AC input current is the
limit? 
Or are you charging from 240V AC?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:33 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Pack isn't reaching its voltage limit. Cutoff voltage is 124.5V.
PFC-30 goes into current limit even if pack voltage is 121V or 122V.
Yellow limits light is blinking. From the PFC-30 manual: 

"If the yellow LIMITS LED is blinking, then it is indicating that there is
an over temperature condition and the charger is in thermal cutback mode."

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

What pack voltage are you running? Are you running into a battery side
current limit or a AC line side current limit? If your pack is reaching the
regulation voltage rather quickly the current will be limited to honor that
voltage regulation.

I've never had the problem but I think that if the charger goes into thermal
cutback you will get the megabright red LED warning light.

Mike



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I turn my PFC-30 up more than about half way, it goes into current
> > limit mode in less than 2 minutes. There's plenty of air space around
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Arrgh! I missed some posts, and I see that you are charging from 220 V.
Please disregard my earlier message.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill Dennis wrote
> 
> It's rather disappointing to have a charger
> billed as capable of 30A that can't even produce 25A at room temperature.
> 
Remember that the 30 A limit applies to the output AND to the input. If you
are charging from 110 VAC, then you are possibly running into effectively
the 30 A limit at the input. (The 30 A may well translate to a different AC
RMS current at the mains input.) You should get the full 30 A output if you
charge from 240 VAC.

My apologies if you're already charging from 240 V.

Disclaimer: I don't have a Manzanita charger, or 110 V mains.




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I have a PFC30 and posted on this a couple years ago. What is the
ambient temperature Bill? I found that when ambient was in upper 90's F I
could run at 30A for somewhere around 25-30 minutes iirc before it started
limiting current due to over temp. I could run 34A for around 15-20 minutes
iirc. I can usually run 28A without limiting with temp in upper 90's F. 
Surprised yours is limiting at as low as 20A - unless your ambient is much
higher. Maybe some problem with the fan? Got a mouse nest in there? :^))



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill, you said you don't have an ammeter on it, and have set the
current knob to 65%.

I have a PFC-20 buck enhanced and it's flat out (at 30A) anywhere
above 50% on the dial when I charge a 120V pack off 230VAC.

Just saying, you should probably check with a meter before announcing a fault 




> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'll fire off an email to Rick. It's rather disappointing to have a charger
> > billed as capable of 30A that can't even produce 25A at room temperature.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think what he was saying, and I missed it the first time, is that the
flashing yellow indicates a fault. If it just goes into current limit at
max current doesn't the yellow light stay on solid?



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Bill, you said you don't have an ammeter on it, and have set the
> > current knob to 65%.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The yellow LED is blinking, indicating that the charger is in thermal cutback. This happens within two to three minutes when the dial is above about half way. At the Madman's suggestion, I measured the air temperature at the charger fan intake. Yesterday, for example, the temperature was 82F. So the charger should not be going into thermal cutback at that point.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Tuer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:58:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me

Bill, you said you don't have an ammeter on it, and have set the
current knob to 65%.

I have a PFC-20 buck enhanced and it's flat out (at 30A) anywhere
above 50% on the dial when I charge a 120V pack off 230VAC.

Just saying, you should probably check with a meter before announcing a fault 




> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'll fire off an email to Rick. It's rather disappointing to have a charger
> > billed as capable of 30A that can't even produce 25A at room temperature.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not on mine - solid yellow means the voltage limit is reached (i.e at
the end of charge).

Blinking yellow is temperature cutback but it's normal when it's
trying to deliver full current - it may only be cutting back by an amp
or two depending on the ambient temperature. If it properly overheats
you get the red LED (never seen that though).




> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I think what he was saying, and I missed it the first time, is that the
> > flashing yellow indicates a fault. If it just goes into current limit at
> > max current doesn't the yellow light stay on solid?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On my PFC 30 the flashing yellow LED does indicate a cutback due to over
temperature. 

I was recently talking with Rich about this issue concerning my old PFC 30
and he told me that they found that they had been a bit too conservative on
some of the internal temp limits on this model. They were cutting back too
early. This is an issue specific to the PFC 30. 

He suggested I bring it in for an upgrade to new limits and a higher power
fan to get much more current on warm days. 

"Trust in the Madman!"



-----
-Otmar-

914 EV, California Poppy, Zilla research vehicle. 
http://evcl.com/914/

The Zilla factory is at:
http://manzanitamicro.com/

Zilla Support is still at: 
http://cafeelectric.com/Ssupport.php
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can download the PFC charger manual at Manzanitamicro.com to see what 
theses indicators means and states as follows:

Yellow LED (Cutback indicator)

OFF - The charge is current limited either by the control knob or
internal current limit (AKA bulk stage)

BLINKING - Charger is in thermal cutback. Cooler air will make more
power.

ON solid - Charger is in voltage cutback (AKA acceptance stage)

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me


> Not on mine - solid yellow means the voltage limit is reached (i.e at
> the end of charge).
>
> Blinking yellow is temperature cutback but it's normal when it's
> trying to deliver full current - it may only be cutting back by an amp
> or two depending on the ambient temperature. If it properly overheats
> you get the red LED (never seen that though).
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Mike Willmon <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> > I think what he was saying, and I missed it the first time, is that the
> > flashing yellow indicates a fault. If it just goes into current limit 
> > at
> > max current doesn't the yellow light stay on solid?
> >
> >


> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Bill, you said you don't have an ammeter on it, and have set the
> > >> current knob to 65%.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The yellow LED is blinking, indicating that the charger is in thermal cutback. This happens within two to three minutes when the dial is above about half way. At the Madman's
> > suggestion, I measured the air temperature at the charger fan intake. Yesterday, for example, the temperature was 82F. So the charger should not be going into thermal
> > cutback at that point.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

See Otmar's reply of a couple minutes ago. Rich told me, as well, to send the charger back for an upgrade which will raise the thermal limit. The early PFC-30's (I didn't ask about other models) have this issue. Upgrade costs around $250, I think he said.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Tuer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:31:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Goes All Current-Limit on Me



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The yellow LED is blinking, indicating that the charger is in thermal cutback. This happens within two to three minutes when the dial is above about half way. At the Madman's
> > suggestion, I measured the air temperature at the charger fan intake. Yesterday, for example, the temperature was 82F. So the charger should not be going into thermal
> > cutback at that point.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Back when I was investigating thermal cutback on my PFC30 I talked to Rich
and he told me the inductor heats up, and that the main difference between a
PFC40 and PFC30 was a bigger fan for the inductor on the 40. I purchased
mine in summer of 2009. Sounds like maybe the earlier models had more of a
problem since as I said I can typically run 28A for hours with ambient temps
in the upper 90's F. 



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