# 60 HP ...830lbs AC Motor...will it work???



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

You would need a sh** load of batteries prob.. 15K plus dollars..

Check out this truck and motor, I went for a ride in this truck
and it runs like it has a v8 in it.

This is the link for the full size pickup..
http://topekaelectricmotor.com/electric-vehicles/ac-project

This is the link for the motor
http://topekaelectricmotor.com/files/Baldor-Motor-and-Curtis-123.jpg

I am building, rewinding a baldor for my truck. Want a 
little bit bigger than a ac50 motor..


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Ivansgarage said:


> Check ou this truck and motor, I went for a ride in the truck
> and it runds like it had a v8 in it.
> This link is about Kevins truck..
> http://topekaelectricmotor.com/electric-vehicles/ac-project
> ...


i checked it out! thanks...actually, i saw another post somewhere that you referred to it and i looked it up earlier  ...but, that motor is 50 HP (ok, close enough) but it has 362 amps and 72 Volts, so I don't know how those differences will compare to my motor (not to mention mine weighs 340 lbs more!!!) ...so what will happen in my case with those differences????


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What does " a friend has access too" exactly mean? Are you buying it? if so how much? is it free? 

If its free I would take it and sell it and use the money to get another motor that is better suited for an EV.

As others have said you still need to take into account the 5-800lbs of lithium you will need...


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

He has a new $7,500 (retail) high efficiency motor that he can sell me for $2000


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Ivansgarage said:


> You would need a sh** load of batteries prob.. 15K plus ...
> 
> This is the link for the full size pickup..
> http://topekaelectricmotor.com/electric-vehicles/ac-project
> ...


This vehicle you shared would still weigh more than mine even with my motor weighing in at 350 lbs more. Would mine draw a lot more current? Be less powerful up hills? What exactly would be the problem with this motor other than added weight?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

adeyo said:


> He has a new $7,500 (retail) high efficiency motor that he can sell me for $2000


well find out how much you can make by selling it for him, be a good friend, and split the profits, and use your share to buy EV parts, not industrial parts.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

My goal is to find something that will work on the cheap. Even if i tried to resell etc, i am going to fork over much more cash to buy something ideal. I'm wondering if this motor could still manage hilly terrain, highway speeds with reasonable battery usage. 

Otherwise i agree. (but my pocketbook doesn't)


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

ADEYO
Ok going to try and keep this basic. You really need to figure out what voltage you are going to run (motor and controller) The higher the voltage the more batteries you will need, and lith. batts. are not cheap... So with that in mind, that is why i choose to go with the Curtis 1238 controller.. I am only gone to run 30-32 200amp hour lith batts.. You allso need to look at motors, not just the hp and amp, but the continuous rating. Like Kevins motor is 50hp CONTINUOUS unlike the ac50 says 67-70 hp, sounds good, but it is only 20hp continuous.. Big difference.. I was originaly planning on using the ac50, but i live in Tucson AZ, it is 108 today, I feel that motor would not push my extended, loaded 1999 sonoma pickup. I am buildin a little bigger motor and building a water jacket for the housing. So since i am using the 1238 curtis controller with a output 70 rms volts, I need to rewind the motor for 70 volts..I hope this helps a bit more.

Just installed the trans and motor in the truck today. Need to build the water housing and rewind stator..


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

My extended van uses a 30 HP 3 phase induction motor, hooked right to the driveshaft. No problems. 

Yes you need 600 volts DC or more to operate the required industrial inverter. 

The motor you mention would certainly work, but it is quite heavy. I'd say no more than 30 HP induction motor is actually required. 

the 60 HP motor you mention with a 300 kW inverter would be a great performer though


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Thank you both. ...my motor is a 60 HP continuous. Would i need to rewind to another voltage?? or could i leave this as is. Seems like this motor would be a strong performer, but i dont want to change it...but run it how it was designed. Here is a spec sheet...


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Since this is a dual voltage motor, you could use either 340 volts DC into an industrial inverter (240 volt motor wiring)

or 680 volts DC into an inverter (480 volt motor wiring)

you should have 177 FT LBS torque (239 nm) at nominal current, and with the right inverter, 3 to 4x more. 


What does the original engine output?

The Wavesculptor controller would be good if you don't want to attempt to modify an industrial inverter, but there are other low voltage 3 phase controllers if you get it rewound for lower voltage.

http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI74/index.html


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

subcooledheatpump said:


> Since this is a dual voltage motor, you could use either 340 volts DC into an industrial inverter (240 volt motor wiring)
> 
> or 680 volts DC into an inverter (480 volt motor wiring)


I just got one question, how many batteries does it take for 340 volt dc
or 680 volts dc.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

subcooledheatpump said:


> What does the original engine output?


135 HP at 3600 rpm, 210 ft-lbs torque at 1800 rpm. 



Ivansgarage; said:


> I just got one question, how many batteries does it take for 340 volt dc
> or 680 volts dc.


well, since i am new...i'm trying to understand all this. but this is a legitmate fear. are all EV's run at lower voltages? ie. 72 volts and such?? I thought many were actually operated in the 300-400 Volt range???


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

adeyo said:


> 135 HP at 3600 rpm, 210 ft-lbs torque at 1800 rpm.
> 
> 
> 
> well, since i am new...i'm trying to understand all this. but this is a legitmate fear. are all EV's run at lower voltages? ie. 72 volts and such?? I thought many were actually operated in the 300-400 Volt range???


Thats my point big voltage lots of bats Kevins truck at topeka electric
motor is proof you dont need 300 volt and 500 amps.

You could allso build your own controller..
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305599&postcount=33


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

adeyo said:


> are all EV's run at lower voltages? ie. 72 volts and such?? I thought many were actually operated in the 300-400 Volt range???


People mostly use low voltage because high voltage either takes a lot of work or a lot of money, while low voltage can be implemented cheap and easy with components that people are very familiar with: At low voltage you can use 1. A brushed DC motor. 2. A few high capacity batteries (such as Thundersky or CALB) that are super easy to install and set up. 3. A ready to use commercially available controller made for the DC motors mentioned above. You can easily find step by step instructions on this forum and copy people who have done successful conversions with the same components. 

At high voltage, things are different: 1. An AC motor must be used. 2. Your batteries have to be smaller capacity and a lot of them must be put in series. Most of the available smaller capacity cells, for example A123 cells, require a lot of work to get into a usable battery pack. 3. A high voltage AC controller must be used. AC controllers are a lot more complicated, and in general are not readily available. In a few rare instances you can get a high voltage AC motor/controller paired set for a ridiculously high amount of money, but generally you are stuck either designing a controller or modifying an industrial controller, both of which are tasks beyond the abilities of most people. In your case, since you have some random AC motor, you would probably have to end up trying to do that.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> People mostly use low voltage because high voltage either takes a lot of work or a lot of money, while low voltage can be implemented cheap and easy with components that people are very familiar with: At low voltage you can use 1. A brushed DC motor. 2. A few high capacity batteries (such as Thundersky or CALB) that are super easy to install and set up. 3. A ready to use commercially available controller made for the DC motors mentioned above. You can easily find step by step instructions on this forum and copy people who have done successful conversions with the same components.
> 
> At high voltage, things are different: 1. An AC motor must be used.
> 
> ...


 _________________________


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Ivansgarage said:


> _________________________


Ivan, pay attention to what I said: I said at high voltage you have to use AC. I didn't say that if you use AC you have to use high voltage. An AC system can be made at high or low voltage but a DC has to be at low voltage. So yes, the AC50 is AC but runs at low voltage. But you can't run a DC motor at high voltages because the brushes arc.

As far as the AC50 goes, I view it as a way to mimic the standard DC setups that most people do, but in AC. So, it is low voltage high current and you can easily use the usual batteries. It's not much more expensive than a DC setup. And it's a "standard" setup with a specific motor matched with a specific controller. The downside is that it's kind of junky. The motor is undersized and helps perpetuate the stereotype that AC is wimpy. And the controller isn't really well suited for the task. And it does not take advantage of the advantage available to AC systems of being able to operate at higher voltages.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> Ivan, pay attention to what I said: I said at high voltage you have to use AC. I didn't say that if you use AC you have to use high voltage. An AC system can be made at high or low voltage but a DC has to be at low voltage. So yes, the AC50 is AC but runs at low voltage. But you can't run a DC motor at high voltages because the brushes arc.
> 
> As far as the AC50 goes, I view it as a way to mimic the standard DC setups that most people do, but in AC. So, it is low voltage high current and you can easily use the usual batteries. It's not much more expensive than a DC setup. And it's a "standard" setup with a specific motor matched with a specific controller. The downside is that it's kind of junky. The motor is undersized and helps perpetuate the stereotype that AC is wimpy.
> 
> ...


You should read the second post. Here is a curtis ac controller, low voltage
and it kicks ass


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Don't know about anybody else, but I use 50 sealed lead acid batteries in series for 600 volts. 


Yeah thats my destroyed controller you linked to Ivansgarage. 

You'll be happy to know my replacement controller is just a day away from being tested in my van. 

Speaking of custom high voltage controller, it has been done before with very good results. Etischer on this forum is probably the best example. If i'm not mistaken he's had his custom controller going for a little more than 3 years. 


Others like acmotor on the AEVA forums have had success with standard industrial VFDs driving standard industrial induction motors, no modifications needed. 

So it is possible. Ideal, probably not but possible

adeyo: the motor in question should have no problems at all moving your vehicle under nominal ratings


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## Pbk (Jun 3, 2012)

read post #6 in the forklift motor sticky.... and thats all i have to say about that.


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

subcooledheatpump said:


> Don't know about anybody else, but I use 50 sealed lead acid batteries in series for 600 volts.
> 
> ...
> 
> adeyo: the motor in question should have no problems at all moving your vehicle under nominal ratings


Thanks! ...what kind of range do you get? what are the amp ratings of each of the batteries in that series?? also, I hope your new controller works out! I'll follow that closely


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

also, i called topeka electric motor and they were very helpful. it turns out, the ac50 motor that is in the silverado isn't the "ac50" that is a low horsepower ac motor from the golf cart company. they said it is actually a baldor 50 hp continuous ac motor, made specifically to their specs.


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

My batteries are 18 Ah, so all in all about 10 kWhr. Range is probably something like 10 miles. I didn't really pay full price for the batteries (or anything else) so it's not really a big deal, it's just an experiment of mine really. I might get lithium someday, but that won't be for a while. 

My new controller is working, I tried it out yesterday. No explosions. A few bugs to work out with it but all in all it's going well. (just for the record, the old one worked for one year without problem. It only blew because of my own silly ideas that I didn't think through)

Just personally, if you want a much eaiser conversion process, I'd get a smaller motor. Again something like 30 HP should be more than enough. My van is 8000 LBS with a 30 HP motor, and I've had it up to 45 MPH, and I believe it can go up to 60 MPH. I used to have a 15 HP motor in it, the acceleration wasn't as good, neither was the top speed but it did work.

Also, I don't really know your personal prefrence or experience, but a DC system would be alot eaiser. AC can be just as pricey unless you do make your own controllers,(not easy) and it can be alot more difficult especially since you still have some programming to do even if you buy a controller


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I've definitely thought about dc. ...but when it comes down to it, i want to get components that i will be able to use in my final vehicle, whatever that may be. The motor is new under warranty, is a super efficient and retails on baldors website for $8k ...I'm getting it for a little over $1k, so I figure it's worth it. Not paying for a donar vehicle. So really, cost will be the controller and the batteries. (a little other misc.) Just don't know if I'll ever get range out of a high voltage motor that is this heavy.??? Hoping it will work somehow. I'm willing to pay for a good controller -especially if i can use it if i ever replace the motor.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I found a 30 HP severe duty premium efficient motor which is only about 400 pounds, and $1300:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-HP-ELECT...320?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aeb36180

Or this 25 HP motor for only $675:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALDOR-SUPE...384?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae6ead570

A 1700-1800 RPM motor may be the best choice because it will have twice the torque as a two pole motor and you can overclock it to 3600 RPM or higher.

You will need a high power VFD, and most of the ones over 20 HP are 460V. Here is one that has a 230V version, 30HP, new, for about $1450. You probably don't want to use a 720V battery pack that you'd need for a 460V drive:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-HP-VFD-V...110?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c79151c6


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

720 volts is too high for a 460 volt drive anyway. 

680 is the max battery voltage. 

The dynamic brake chopper activates at 730 volts on most 460 volt drives


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

subcooledheatpump said:


> 720 volts is too high for a 460 volt drive anyway.
> 
> 680 is the max battery voltage.
> 
> The dynamic brake chopper activates at 730 volts on most 460 volt drives


Yes, you seem to be correct. I was extrapolating from the specs on my 240V 2HP Fuji/GE drive, which allows 200-400 VDC. My 7.5 HP Toshiba G3 drive specifies the bus voltage range to be 395 to 720 VDC. The 680 VDC you stated is the peak voltage of a 480 VAC sine wave. 

50 12V batteries topped off and charging at 14.4V is 720 VDC. At maximum current draw, they might go as low as 10V each, which is 500V. That's for lead-acid, but for Lithium the same principles apply.

Good luck to the OP on his project. I think the 25 HP motor for $675 might be a good choice. The 30 HP drive at $1450 is also probably ideal. You can't go too far wrong on those components, and making your own high power drive is a major project which can be dangerous, frustrating, and costly. 

The battery pack is the biggest (and heaviest and most expensive) part of the project. 24 x 12V 105 A-H lead-acid batteries will be at least $2000 and weigh 1500 lb, and will optimistically give a range of 48 miles, but more likely 20-30. Personally, that's what I would do. For a total cost of $4125 you'd have an EV that might need little maintenance for a year. Then you would have enough experience to decide on a replacement battery pack which would probably be at least $6000 but would last 5 years or more. The biggest piece of the puzzle is the actual W-hr/mile (I used 300) which will depend on overall efficiency, weight, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, and driving habits.


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