# Americans and Their Cars: Love 'Em, Leave 'Em, Need 'Em



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Whether people love their cars or just tolerate them, they still need a genuine alternative, writes National Geographic.

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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ha - reminds me of all of the old movies where "the dork" arrives to pick up his date on a scooter, and she rolls her eyes...

Cars have positive utility. Eliminating the utility in an attempt to reduce an undesirable by-product does not improve our lives.

The answer, of course, is not getting rid of them or shrinking them to clown cars. The answer is to fix the actual problem - reliance on petroleum.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Americans have a love affair with their cars. It's such a big country, that mass transit is limited and relatively expensive.

More than that though, it's Freedom. A set of car keys gives you sense of freedom; you can go anywhere, anytime.

This is something that will perhaps make cars like the Volt the most effective solution. Without the ability to recharge in less than 5 minutes, gas cars will always have a range advantage until an electric can run 12 hours straight. While a gas car might appear to have a 300 mile range, it does not. I've driven from California to Florida in 40 hours. This is currently so far out of the range of an electric as to be laughable. A Volt could do it, or a hybrid, but not an electric.

While the average driver does not need to drive non-stop from CA to FL, it does apply to daily life. If your electric is not charged, and you need to go right now, you're stuck.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

McRat said:


> Americans have a love affair with their cars. It's such a big country, that mass transit is limited and relatively expensive.
> 
> More than that though, it's Freedom. A set of car keys gives you sense of freedom; you can go anywhere, anytime.
> 
> ...


Have to agree to a point, but it doesn't seem to be a much a limitation of the batteries as it a limit of fast charging stations and some manufacturers choosing the wrong battery or not enoughof them and not currently supporting fast charging. Nissan being the exception. A 5 minute recharge isn't necessary. A 20 minute charge to 80% and a real 100-150 mile range is all thats needed. It's achievable with the tech we have now. It looks like elon musk is making it a priority for his company...... Better/cheaper batteries wohld help, but like I said earlier it's achievable witb what is available now.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

We can disagree with the charging time, but it is certainly clear that improvements are happening rapidly. Newer cathode and anode materials not only promise better energy-densities but also lower price and faster charging. 

At some point, a "quick charge" will simply require a compatible battery pack already charged (to provide the source for the immense surge of current) and a very heavy cable. With low enough cost, people will want these in their homes anyway as a power backup.

I believe 300 mile range in a Leaf-equivalent car is no more than 3 years away - and folks can look at my posts from 2 years ago and see that I was then predicting about 5 years, which would make me somewhat prophetic if that timeline still holds. Whether I'm off by a few years or not, it is certainly not a long time to wait. Transition of 50% of the world's vehicles will still take 5-10 years after that, and we still have the problem of India and China building new coal plants every week to work on, but overall we are on the right track.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

PhantomPholly said:


> We can disagree with the charging time, but it is certainly clear that improvements are happening rapidly. Newer cathode and anode materials not only promise better energy-densities but also lower price and faster charging.
> 
> At some point, a "quick charge" will simply require a compatible battery pack already charged (to provide the source for the immense surge of current) and a very heavy cable. With low enough cost, people will want these in their homes anyway as a power backup.
> 
> I believe 300 mile range in a Leaf-equivalent car is no more than 3 years away - and folks can look at my posts from 2 years ago and see that I was then predicting about 5 years, which would make me somewhat prophetic if that timeline still holds. Whether I'm off by a few years or not, it is certainly not a long time to wait. Transition of 50% of the world's vehicles will still take 5-10 years after that, and we still have the problem of India and China building new coal plants every week to work on, but overall we are on the right track.


Dont disagree on any particular point. The only reason I said 20 min is that it can be
done now and is only a minor inconvenience.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> Dont disagree on any particular point. The only reason I said 20 min is that it can be
> done now and is only a minor inconvenience.


Ah, wasn't disagreeing with you on the 20 min (although that's not for a 300 mile car). I meant the time until the majority of the general public agrees that an EV fits their needs.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> Ah, wasn't disagreeing with you on the 20 min (although that's not for a 300 mile car).


A 300 mile range car would need a pack size somewhere between 60kwh and 120kwh. Call it 100kwh and using a maxxed out Level 2 charger at 240volt 70amp and it would take around 6 and a half hours to charge. A Level 3 service could conceivably still charge this pack in 20 minutes to 80%. This could be done with a 480V three phase industrial drop which could charge several cars at the same time. A more efficient use of the grid would be to charge banks of batteries during off peak times and then use the stored charge during peak times.

It still looks to me like the most common form of charging will be done where the car is parked at night with a 30A level 2 service. For people who drive less than 30 miles per day you can do all your charging from a normal wall outlet. This is what I will be doing.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> A 300 mile range car would need a pack size somewhere between 60kwh and 120kwh. Call it 100kwh and using a maxxed out Level 2 charger at 240volt 70amp and it would take around 6 and a half hours to charge. A Level 3 service could conceivably still charge this pack in 20 minutes to 80%. This could be done with a 480V three phase industrial drop which could charge several cars at the same time. A more efficient use of the grid would be to charge banks of batteries during off peak times and then use the stored charge during peak times.


I hadn't done the math - thanks. I did not realize that 480v was even an option, nor that it could dump that much energy in only 20 minutes! 

My ongoing assumption is that such recharging could ONLY be accomplished using banks of batteries or capacitors. For commercial charging stations, that will require something like liquid batteries which can charge and discharge rapidly and never lose their ability to recharge, since they would undergo multiple full charging cycles equivalent use in a single day.



> It still looks to me like the most common form of charging will be done where the car is parked at night with a 30A level 2 service. For people who drive less than 30 miles per day you can do all your charging from a normal wall outlet. This is what I will be doing.


I agree. 10 hrs (most people spend a bit more time at home than just sleeping) * 30A * 220v * .8 (arbitrary charging inefficiency losses for sake of having a number) = about 52.8KwHrs in a single night (assuming you go right to sleep - most folks would probably charge at least 10 hrs). Using the figure we came up with in another post of 8IwHrs = 1 gallon equivalent for purposes of propulsion, that's about equal to refilling 6.6 gallons of gas per night, or about enough to drive 200 miles in a car that would get 30mpg with an ICE motor, or 120 miles in an SUV.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I have loved cars since I can remember. One of my favorite places to play when I was five or six was my dad’s 1948 Buick Club Coupe. I won many a race with that straight eight. When I was in High School I lived for the weekends so I could go cruising through the popular burger joints. I have done a lot of driving over the years for business and fun and I have not lost my enthusiasm for working on cars and driving them. The only thing that has changed in a lot of my driving is the type of fuel I use. I can get 30 miles comfortably out of my ev and I have adapted to it pretty well I think. There is a lot going on in the area I live in well with in my driving range. Sometimes I have gone out for a while then came home put the car on charge and had a two hour lunch unplugged the car and went out for the evening. I think with the miles per charge on cars like the Leaf most people could do quite well if they just thought it out.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> My ongoing assumption is that such recharging could ONLY be accomplished using banks of batteries or capacitors.


That isn't the only option. There are already stations in operation for charging electric buses. IIRC, they are capable of charging at a rate of 400kw.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

PhantomPholly said:


> I hadn't done the math - thanks. I did not realize that 480v was even an option, nor that it could dump that much energy in only 20 minutes!
> 
> My ongoing assumption is that such recharging could ONLY be accomplished using banks of batteries or capacitors. For commercial charging stations, that will require something like liquid batteries which can charge and discharge rapidly and never lose their ability to recharge, since they would undergo multiple full charging cycles equivalent use in a single day.
> 
> I agree. 10 hrs (most people spend a bit more time at home than just sleeping) * 30A * 220v * .8 (arbitrary charging inefficiency losses for sake of having a number) = about 52.8KwHrs in a single night (assuming you go right to sleep - most folks would probably charge at least 10 hrs). Using the figure we came up with in another post of 8IwHrs = 1 gallon equivalent for purposes of propulsion, that's about equal to refilling 6.6 gallons of gas per night, or about enough to drive 200 miles in a car that would get 30mpg with an ICE motor, or 120 miles in an SUV.


480v is 3ph and used for businesses. Each leg is 277v, which is why you'll see a lot of 277v lighting fixtures. My shop is 493vac with 600 amp service. I have a step down transformer for 120/208 services, but all my bigger equipment and the lighting is all from 480 box.

It is rare to see any 3ph service of any voltage in residential areas. Pity.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Yeah, it is my hope that once we have awesome batteries we will see a resurgence in behemoth Recreational Vehicles. Tailgate parties at ball games are just too good of an American custom not to be continued!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

McRat said:


> I've driven from California to Florida in 40 hours. This is currently so far out of the range of an electric as to be laughable. A Volt could do it, or a hybrid, but not an electric.


Yeah, a Leaf can only do 1000 miles in 24 hours, so I'm sure a trip from CA to FL in 40 will never be possible in an EV.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Yeah, a Leaf can only do 1000 miles in 24 hours, so I'm sure a trip from CA to FL in 40 will never be possible in an EV.


Is that what that commercial is all about? Going 1000 miles on a closed course in 24 hrs? 

1000 mi in 24 hrs is 40mph average. The record for a solar car is over 60mph average for over 1800 miles. The world's record for a bicycle on level ground without drafting is about 27mph average for 24hrs, IIRC. Beating a bicycle by 1/3 isn't normally bragging stuff.

Nothing against the Leaf, but that ad campaign is like McDonald's saying their food is low-calorie by pointing out that somebody ate McDonald's only for a year and lost weight.

Sure it can be done under controlled conditions, but recharging in West Texas at 3:00am? Good luck with that.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I haven't seen any ad. Just know some people have done it. My point is that the first real EV to hit the market can do half of what you say is so laughable for an EV, and there are other cars that could do far better.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I haven't seen any ad. Just know some people have done it. My point is that the first real EV to hit the market can do half of what you say is so laughable for an EV, and there are other cars that could do far better.


Point being, is today, you could not make that trip in a production EV-only car. There are areas that are over 200 miles apart. The only way you can go 1000 miles is if you've researched it well or have a chase car. Hence why the Volt is currently the winner in the arms race. 

Yes, the tech will improve, and the number of charging stations will increase. But today, a pure EV is a commuter car for the urban environment due to range, and charging duration.

There is nothing wrong with that, and there is a growing market for short range cars. But if there was a meeting you had to drive to that was 100 miles from home (new customer, unknown facilities), and there was a Volt and a Leaf in your driveway, which keys would you grab?

I'm not saying the ICE car is better than an EV. What I'm saying is that a dual mode vehicle solves the range problem today. When the range becomes 300 miles on EV's, and the price becomes competitive, then it will become a flood of drivers switching over. 

Somebody soon will make millions by selling tow trucks that have PTO's and high power generators that can rescue EV's with a 20 minute charge. These will be necessary even if the range of EV's becomes 500 miles. Somebody will get stranded and need 2 gallons to get to a charging station. The cost of the option would be $5-8k. Nearly all diesels have PTO's, and the kit would bolt right up to existing trucks.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

McRat said:


> Yes, the tech will improve, and the number of charging stations will increase. But today, a pure EV is a commuter car for the urban environment due to range, and charging duration.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with that, and there is a growing market for short range cars. But if there was a meeting you had to drive to that was 100 miles from home (new customer, unknown facilities), and there was a Volt and a Leaf in your driveway, which keys would you grab?


with the 300 mile Tesla S, I think the technology is here already.

My EV only has a 50 mile range. My van has a 400 mile range. I drove the van 3x in the last month, once when I needed more carying capacity than my EV has, once when I needed more range, and once because my charger failed overnight and left my EV empty when I got up in the morning. 

Love the EV, but I'm not selling my gasser anytime soon. I'd rather have two cars than trying to make one car (Volt) do both jobs.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

The Volt is the winner of no arms race.

What's the point in driving 40 miles on electric followed by 2000 on gas? Just take a prius, TDI, or other car that actually gets good mileage. You could rent a Cruze for the trip and the gas money you save over taking the Volt would pay for itself.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> The Volt is the winner of no arms race.
> 
> What's the point in driving 40 miles on electric followed by 2000 on gas? Just take a prius, TDI, or other car that actually gets good mileage. You could rent a Cruze for the trip and the gas money you save over taking the Volt would pay for itself.


Exactly. My hybrid setup is my ev and an 02 Intrepid. My wife and I drive about 3500 miles a year. 3,000 of it is in the electric. The trips we use the dodge for are the hundred mile jaunts.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> The Volt is the winner of no arms race.
> 
> What's the point in driving 40 miles on electric followed by 2000 on gas? Just take a prius, TDI, or other car that actually gets good mileage. You could rent a Cruze for the trip and the gas money you save over taking the Volt would pay for itself.


The only two people I know who drive Volts don't run gasoline very often if at all. If I understand it right, that is true for most owners.

If I bought one, neither would I. My commute is 10 miles each way. The American average commute is 16 miles.

Did you think Chevy just pulled that 40 miles number out of a hat? No. It covers over 80% of the drivers.

Why don't I drive a Volt? It's not cost effective. $40k is too much. Needs to be in the $25k area.

As far as a gasser with good mileage? I had a mid 1980's Chevy Sprint. Few cars today can match it for fuel economy. 

Why hasn't fuel economy shown a huge jump in 25 years? It has, just not in economy cars. A Sprint with modern technology like direct injection and better aero would be getting ~75mpg today. It was not an efficient engine, and it had the aero of a brick. The Corvette back then was 14mpg, today it's 26 with double the horsepower. Ditto for SUV's and pickups.

My 6400lb 3/4 ton 4x4 gets 25 mpg and has over 900HP. That could not be done 25 years ago.

While the US Gov't knows most Volts aren't running off gasoline, they list it as a hybrid. If you drive using only electricity, why isn't that an electric car? Politics. The Feds have always favored import companies. Lobbying is good. Free trip to Asia or Europe on a "fact finding" mission vs. a trip to Detroit. Which would you pick?

The Gov't killed the EV1. They were in high demand at the time. It was the first truly useful electric car, but Toyota and Honda lobbyied to repeal the Electric Mandate since they were not ready yet. They were successful, and it only cost GM $1 billion dollars.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

The Govt didn't kill the EV1. The Govt allowed GM to kill it after forcing them to build it. Just like now they made em make the Volt, and GM's doing their best to use it to show how unviable electrics are. It is a hybrid, just w/ poor mileage.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I see people on here railing against the Volt constantly, yet everyone who actually buys one loves it. Go figure. 

GM doesn't have to do the same thing Nissan is doing guys. And they do have full EVs in the pipeline, due to come out in 2013 IIRC. The Volt is a good solution for a significant portion of the market, given the current state of battery technology. It fills a need in the market, which is why it has been outselling all other plug in cars so far this year.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> The Govt didn't kill the EV1. The Govt allowed GM to kill it after forcing them to build it. Just like now they made em make the Volt, and GM's doing their best to use it to show how unviable electrics are. It is a hybrid, just w/ poor mileage.


Perhaps that's because it runs 16 second quarter miles? That is as quick as a 1978 Corvette with 350ci V8 engine. They don't fear the Prius from a stoplight. Everyone I've met who has driven one is impressed how quick it is.

Why would they make what people wanted if their goal was to kill it? The EV1 got rav reviews from people who drive cars for a living. Poor reviews from people who biitch about things for a living; newspapers, politicos, etc.

The Prius has 0 miles electric range. It's not an electric. You can't drive it to work on an empty gas tank. That is a hybrid. The Volt is an urban electric with additional safety equipment. Unless you consider being stuck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere a good thing.


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