# Siemens 1PV5135-4WS14



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

I purchased 10 motors sold a few and have a few left for $2000 apiece, I'm on the west coast.

I have a controller based on a microchip dsPIC33FJ64GS610A cpu. I'm using the SKiM modules from AZD but need to finish the driver board for the bridge. 
I was hoping to use the AZD driver boards I have but I haven't figured out the pinout and don't have a connector for this board.

Alternately I could use a driver board from Semikron but I need to find the appropriate driver for these SKiM modules.

Thats where I'm at currently but next month I have more time and hope to get further along power up these motors.

Steve


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Anyone got a working system? Seems a few of these motors have sold


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

try working with these folks...

http://forums.evtv.me/?forum=270147


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

palmer_md said:


> try working with these folks...
> 
> http://forums.evtv.me/?forum=270147


I've got my motor working fine - just interested what other people are using. The should be plenty of controllers capable based on their specs, just wondering which have been tried.

Not interested in the DMOC like most people on the EVTV forum - its a POS if you ask me, and is currently just an expensive paper weight


But thanks for the link anyway


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## Jaesin (Mar 6, 2011)

Stiive said:


> I've got my motor working fine


What controller/voltage are you using?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Jaesin said:


> What controller/voltage are you using?


I'm using my own controller design @ 400VDC. 

It'd be good to get a resource of what commercially available controllers are compatible though


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Stiive said:


> Hi,
> Who bought one of these motors as a result of the AZD liquidation? I bought 2 for myself
> 
> I'd be interested to see what controller(s) other people are using the power them.


We are using our own controller the next month for prototype but will in future most likely buy the new TI-4520 controller HEC is making for this motors.
http://www.hec-drives.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=3


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## Jaesin (Mar 6, 2011)

Stiive said:


> I'm using my own controller design @ 400VDC.
> 
> It'd be good to get a resource of what commercially available controllers are compatible though


I agree, I'm considering this motor for a buddy of mine and he would like something off the shelf in case he ever needs to have it serviced and I'm not around.

- Jaesin


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

gunnarhs said:


> We are using our own controller the next month for prototype but will in future most likely buy the new TI-4520 controller HEC is making for this motors.
> http://www.hec-drives.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=3


This HEC unit is very interesting. They do not have pricing or links to distributors. Do you have any more information? Pricing?


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> This HEC unit is very interesting. They do not have pricing or links to distributors. Do you have any more information? Pricing?


I have been in contact with Eddy Hustinx and this inverter is still beeing tested so a final price is not there but he has named a very reasonable target price for motor/inverter combo. I encourage you to ask himself on the homepage, better to hear it directly from the source


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> I have been in contact with Eddy Hustinx and this inverter is still beeing tested so a final price is not there but he has named a very reasonable target price for motor/inverter combo. I encourage you to ask himself on the homepage, better to hear it directly from the source


Yes, Eddy is currently offering trial runs for his HEC controller for cheap - he is after candidates with decent experience and knowledge about motors and controller.
He also sells the Siemens Simotion controllers. 
I can give Eddy my personal recommendation.


Anyone tried a Rinehart/Sevcon/Piktronik etc?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

I haven't personally used it, but I know the Rinehart controller can run these motors.


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## agazdziak (Sep 24, 2012)

We are planning on using a Wavesculptor 200, going to start our build soon once parts are ordered sometime next week.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> I haven't personally used it, but I know the Rinehart controller can run these motors.



Got any info on this?


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Stiive said:


> Got any info on this?


Yes, Jack over at EVTV has sent one of the motor to Rhinehart for testing, I think I am one or two episodes behind so not sure if he has results yet. Jack also said that Rhinhart has changed ownership and it was rumored that the new owners were going to lower production cost, thus lowering the consumer cost. I signed up for an account at Neweagle they carry Rhinehart, and have experience with them, they could provide info. 

I have a couple of these motors as well, and will be building a custom DMOC 845 like hbthink, capable of 500v and 400 amps( not at the same time, limited to 160kw at any given point). I would like to use the higher voltage at higher speeds with lower amps. And use more amps on the low end with less voltage. In other words push the motor pretty hard, this will not be for a street car.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Stiive said:


> Got any info on this?


Not really...I interviewed with them at one point, and they were using a couple of them for testing purposes.

Also, Bob Simpson used the RMS controller on a bigger version of that motor in his BMW before he switched to a Remy motor.

http://www.evalbum.com/1541


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## Jaesin (Mar 6, 2011)

Stiive said:


> I've got my motor working fine - just interested what other people are using. The should be plenty of controllers capable based on their specs, just wondering which have been tried.
> 
> Not interested in the DMOC like most people on the EVTV forum - its a POS if you ask me, and is currently just an expensive paper weight
> 
> ...


Why is the DMOC a POS? Your not the first person I've heard say that so I wonder what's the problem with it besides that it doesn't have an integrated VCU?

Are you referring to the DMOC645v2?


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Jaesin said:


> Why is the DMOC a POS? Your not the first person I've heard say that so I wonder what's the problem with it besides that it doesn't have an integrated VCU?
> 
> Are you referring to the DMOC645v2?


Siemens motors are fierce creatures, seem to kill controllers, they have a prominent list of death (DMOC, Evisol, Brusa, Ballard). 
Most controllers I have seen with these motors limit their performance to max 100kW, seems a reason for that.
These motors from 135 - series (> 300V, I still have to test the 1PV5135-4WS14 which is a 200V version) can easely deliver 150kW for 3 minutes if higher voltage is applied.
I have only seen the 138 - series working with (huge) Siemens - Inverters and I have been told from HEC that their TI-9030. is handling these motors in a Tram-Apllication at high voltage (same as Siemens does).
The new Brusa DMC534 and DMC544 seem to have the specs up to 500V to be usable.
One important feature is the efficiency (here I am only looking at the thermal losses). To be able to use the full Siemens Motor power I would need at least a 150 kW inverter. If assuming 97% constant(!) efficiency (Brusa seems top there), this means cooling of 5kW. This is not easy to to realize and surely the losses may not be more than that for a compact construction.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Of interest concerning the Siemens 5135 series is whether the specified value of 280-300A max input is merely a residual value from Siemens controller output?

The Siemens spec sheet lists the 5135 series at a max of 300A @ 750V for a max input of 225 kva and a listed max output of 200kw (88% efficient?).

If you apply that power at a lowly 350V it requires an input of 642A. 

Now obviously the DMOC, Siemens, HEC, Brusa, etc... are not rated even close to that, but supposing one COULD find a 640A controller for the Siemens, would it handle that kind of input current? For 15 sec? For 30 sec?

Are the AZD Siemens under-rated by about 50% (105kw) and are actually good for 200+kw?

Just curious what folks think..


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

ruckus said:


> Of interest concerning the Siemens 5135 series is whether the specified value of 280-300A max input is merely a residual value from Siemens controller output?
> 
> The Siemens spec sheet lists the 5135 series at a max of 300A @ 750V for a max input of 225 kva and a listed max output of 200kw (88% efficient?).
> 
> ...


No, these Siemens motors are wound and cooled for 300A max (also 138 series). They are made for high-voltage/highspeed applications and the same applies for the control applied. This means that current is limited to 300A, which gives us about 100kW, additional power is made through increase of voltage/speed. This concept gives higher total-efficency (meaning less cooling is needed)


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

I proposed what you are saying on another forum and was laughed off the page and ridiculed by fairly knowledgeable folks. Their response was that 'power' is 'power'. 

Which is why I am posing the question here. If power is power, then the 5135 is good for 200kw regardless of input voltage (350-750V).

Food for thought: winding for the same rpm at lower voltage means using coarser wire. This 'implies' greater current carrying capacity. 

Yes?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> If power is power, then the 5135 is good for 200kw regardless of input voltage (350-750V).


Power is *not* power . One power is P=V.I, the other is loss P=(I^2).R
You can increase the voltage and power goes up linearly (if you can current limit), but if you increase the current, power goes up minus the exponential extra losses.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> Siemens motors are fierce creatures, seem to kill controllers, they have a prominent list of death (DMOC, Evisol, Brusa, Ballard).


QFT. This motor is a b*tch to control. 
Such low resistance and inductance = a bugger to control. You've just turned a switch on and you have to promptly turn it off again or else she'll suck you dry.

That said, she doesn't want to get out of bed for anything less than 100A. Very demanding woman we've got here.


Also, I was interested to see Eddy's video of spinning the motor, his seems to make the same intermittent noises as mine... In mine they seem to go away around 8-10k RPM, but his video only takes it up to about ~3k RPM from the sounds of it.
I should release a video of mine accelerating up to 10k


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> Power is *not* power . One power is P=V.I, the other is loss P=(I^2).R
> You can increase the voltage and power goes up linearly (if you can current limit), but if you increase the current, power goes up minus the exponential extra losses.


So the lawn chair army was wrong? Impossible!

I said running at higher voltage was more 'efficient' and got my a## handed to me.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> QFT. This motor is a b*tch to control.
> Such low resistance and inductance = a bugger to control. You've just turned a switch on and you have to promptly turn it off again or else she'll suck you dry.
> 
> That said, she doesn't want to get out of bed for anything less than 100A. Very demanding woman we've got here.
> ...


Please link these vids. 
Thanks


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ruckus said:


> So the lawn chair army was wrong? Impossible!
> 
> I said running at higher voltage was more 'efficient' and got my a## handed to me.


No, the lawn chair army was right if they said that it matters not whether a motor is wound to produce 100kW with, e.g., 250V/400A or 500V/200A. 

The reason why is simple: a motor wound for a higher voltage will have more stator/field turns with a smaller cross-sectional area than its counterpart wound for a lower voltage. If one version of a motor requires twice the voltage at half the current then its windings will have twice the length of wire of half the cross sectional area, which results in *4x* the winding resistance. Plug that into the equation P = I²R and you'll see that the losses for the two motors are the same. Twice the current squared is 4x current. Twice the length of wire with half the area is 4x resistance. Thus, equivalency.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes, exactly.

So how does that figure against the theory that higher voltage motors of the same weight can magically produce more kw as Siemens spec sheets declare?

That is the critical issue.

Either the low-voltage motors are under-rated, the high-voltage motors are over-rated, or higher voltage means more power from the same motor.

One of these three paradigms is true. Which one?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> So how does that figure against the theory that higher voltage motors of the same weight can magically produce more kw as Siemens spec sheets declare?


Where are you getting this info?

According to this document below, all the different voltage levels for the async 1PV5135 are around 60kw.... you might be getting confused with the larger 1PV5138, or the sync PM 1FV5135
http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/Internet/MarineComm/General/Docs/ELFA_Data%20Sheet.pdf


What Tess said is correct, but the motor has to be wound for the different voltage/current ratings. Putting 325V and 248A into the 650V 124A 1PV5135 wont give you the same continuous power output


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

OK, I thought we all had the same base data. If not, here is the link:
http://www.hec-drives.nl/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf

That chart gives different KW outputs for the same weight 5135 motor varying from 105kw to 200kw. 

This is a HUGE difference for a motor of the same weight.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> OK, I thought we all had the same base data. If not, here is the link:
> http://www.hec-drives.nl/Specs Siemens 1PV51XX.pdf
> 
> That chart gives different KW outputs for the same weight 5135 motor varying from 105kw to 200kw.
> ...


I'm not sure where Eddy got his info from, but the Siemens data shows the 1PV5135-4WS28 as ~150kW peak, as is the 1PV5135-4WS24.

You can see however, the continuous ratings decrease from the 4WS28 (67kW) to then 4WS24 (61kW) through to 4WS14 (45kW). 
Higher voltage motors tend to have a higher kw/kg rating , but not normally this drastic. 
I'd say itd have something to do with the fact the original motor design was the 4WS28, and the others seem to be a rewind of this. The amount of back iron and air gap etc would have been optimised for the HV winding, where the lower voltage windings are no longer optimal. Generally you would run your flux close to saturation, which would not be the case in the LV windings all the way to peak power. You can see in the torque-speed in the Siemens document that the peak torque drops off before 4k RPM in the lower voltage winding because it cant maintain the optimal flux.
Also, skin effect may play some role depending on the wire gauge of the rewind at the higher frequencies close to peak (4-5k RPM). 
Any excess heat that cant be removed will decrease both continuous and peak ratings.

Perhaps also the test conditions are dependant on the controller and cabling, which obviously struggles more with the higher current capabilities.

To many variables with the minimal details released on the motor.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

ruckus said:


> I proposed what you are saying on another forum and was laughed off the page and ridiculed by fairly knowledgeable folks. Their response was that 'power' is 'power'. ?


Well and loss is loss. Meaning using the same motor, same inverter, same batteries it is better if you can turn up the voltage than the current if extra torque/speed is needed.



> Which is why I am posing the question here. If power is power, then the 5135 is good for 200kw regardless of input voltage (350-750V).


Remember though, Power is limited through motor parameters and structure (volume of motor (air gap), stator field windings e.tc.
Meaning that Max-Power can not be reached in every situation (frequency/load). 
Usually maximal current allowed by copper/alu in windings/rotor limits torque and maximal voltage allowed by motor structure limits speed.
(This is simplified as these values are correlated in induction motor through mutual inductance)
As given Power = Current * Voltage (or Power = Torque * Speed)



> Food for thought: winding for the same rpm at lower voltage means using coarser wire. This 'implies' greater current carrying capacity.
> Yes?


Yes , if I understand you correctly. For example 1PV5135-4WS14 and 1PV5135-4WS24 are wound for different voltage and power. 
You could change the stator windings (thicker) AND rotor conductor bars in 1PV5135-4WS14 to increase current and increase power ( as long as you can maintain the airgap ).


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Stiive said:


> QFT. This motor is a b*tch to control.
> Such low resistance and inductance = a bugger to control. You've just turned a switch on and you have to promptly turn it off again or else she'll suck you dry.


Ok, I saw in a thread that you built your own controller which I assume you are using, great job done. I am still waiting for improvement of a inverter we built a few yaers ago, I have reworked the software, but I am still waiting for the change in the electronics. This motor will kill our inverter like it is today, it iwas made for standard motors only. If the HEC-inverter will be finished earlier, I would have one problem less...



> Also, I was interested to see Eddy's video of spinning the motor, his seems to make the same intermittent noises as mine... In mine they seem to go away around 8-10k RPM, but his video only takes it up to about ~3k RPM from the sounds of it.
> I should release a video of mine accelerating up to 10k


Would be very interesting to see (and hear).


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Stiive said:


> You can see in the torque-speed in the Siemens document that the peak torque drops off before 4k RPM in the lower voltage winding because it cant maintain the optimal flux.


And if you look at the link below, the torque on the 4WS14 drops off at 3,000RPM
http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf

Obviously they are keeping the max flux constant between the motors, but the lower voltage models cant produce the flux to the 4,000RPM required for 150kW


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> I'm not sure where Eddy got his info from, but the Siemens data shows the 1PV5135-4WS28 as ~150kW peak, as is the 1PV5135-4WS24...


That IS the Siemens data. Not Eddy's. I just linked it there for convenience. I've had that data sheet since early last year.

It says what it says and it's 100% Siemens. If you really run the numbers on that sheet you will find plenty of errors and exaggerations, but that is not the point. The key issue is whether 'power' increases with voltage in a given motor (as the data sheet clearly shows).

Windings and air gap do not account for a 100% increase in power by raising voltage. 

There are only 2 conclusions.
1. 'Power' increases directly with voltage in a given motor. 
or,
2. Siemens data is a bunch of hooey and not worth the ink to print. 

Which is it? 


On a side note, peak kw rpm is directly related to voltage and winding fineness. If you take the same winding and run it at lower voltage the back-emf will creep up faster. Want to hit higher rpm? Just make the winding coarser. Now you get that high rpm at low voltage, but also get lousy torque. 

The winding of a motor is the electronic 'gearing'.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> Ok, I saw in a thread that you built your own controller which I assume you are using, great job done.


Thanks, yeh this is the controller I use to test the 1PV5.. I have two motors and am trying to mate them for a dyno setup. 



gunnarhs said:


> I am still waiting for improvement of a inverter we built a few yaers ago, I have reworked the software, but I am still waiting for the change in the electronics. This motor will kill our inverter like it is today, it iwas made for standard motors only.


Cool, got any info on this? I'm always excited to see other DIY controllers  
Yeh, you need a very fast sample time to get vector control working with this motor otherwise i'd imagine damage could occur pretty easily. I designed my controller with an even lower inductance motor in mind, so luckily mine has been preforming very well so far.




gunnarhs said:


> Would be very interesting to see (and hear).


Here is eddys video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj2iCEvUsTM

His actually sounds worse, especially around 17seconds. I wonder if its due to incorrect switching or bearing/mechanical noise... I'm thinking (hoping) the latter


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> That IS the Siemens data. Not Eddy's. I just linked it there for convenience. I've had that data sheet since early last year.
> 
> It says what it says and it's 100% Siemens.


I think you'll find I linked the data from the Siemens webpage which shows different values to those listed by HEC as explained in my previous post.

EDIT: I see that the Siemens peak values are @650V whereas Eddy's are @750V. Perhaps this is from his own testing, since I cant seem to find a Siemens datasheet on it.

Anyway, refer to previous posts for my thoughts on the power discrepancy


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Stiive said:


> Cool, got any info on this? I'm always excited to see other DIY controllers
> Yeh, you need a very fast sample time to get vector control working with this motor otherwise i'd imagine damage could occur pretty easily. I designed my controller with an even lower inductance motor in mind, so luckily mine has been preforming very well so far.


I will send you PM soon with pictures and tests, this was in 2011 when the prototype was tested for water-pump-usages. But it is still not finished for application in car with Siemens Motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> I will send you PM soon with pictures and tests, this was in 2011 when the prototype was tested for water-pump-usages. But it is still not finished for application in car with Siemens Motor.


Add me the copy list on that PM. I'd like to see it.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

ruckus said:


> Windings and air gap do not account for a 100% increase in power by raising voltage.
> There are only 2 conclusions.
> 1. 'Power' increases directly with voltage in a given motor.
> or,
> ...


I admit I do not fully understand how Siemens is able to hold the power over such a long speed -interval at their rated voltage. Here is a graph postet by etischer on his site where he compares the Power/RPM-curve of different motortypes at their ratet voltage-values. Especially the comparison of the Siemens Motor (Ford type) with AC55 is interesting, the AC55 is the behaviour I know from standard industrial motors. I think I have to open the Siemens Motor and take a closer look inside. But look at the data guys and tell me what you think.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stiive said:


> Power is *not* power . One power is P=V.I, the other is loss P=(I^2).R
> You can increase the voltage and power goes up linearly (if you can current limit), but if you increase the current, power goes up minus the exponential extra losses.


When you increase motor voltage there is also an increase in frequency which has an increase in associated loss greater than linear proportions, so it is not as rosy as you seem to infer.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I proposed what you are saying on another forum and was laughed off the page and ridiculed by fairly knowledgeable folks. Their response was that 'power' is 'power'.


What was questioned was your apparent method of developing theory from marketing spec sheets ignoring basic principles and then guaranteeing erroneous statements on the subject, IIRC


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## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

Out of curiosity, other than those on the HEC website, has anyone seen technical data or specifications for this motor which aren't marked "PRELIMINARY" ?

I did submit a request to Siemens, but... well, you know the kind of reply I got !

Cheers

Dave.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

E30_Dave said:


> Out of curiosity, other than those on the HEC website, has anyone seen technical data or specifications for this motor which aren't marked "PRELIMINARY" ?
> 
> I did submit a request to Siemens, but... well, you know the kind of reply I got !
> 
> ...


Look at metricmind.com


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## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

gunnarhs said:


> Look at metricmind.com


Nope... Been there too !


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

d.c. voltage = 300V
Asynchronmotor 1PV5135-4WS14
nN..... PN... MN ..IN .Popt .nopt nmax ..m ....J ...Mmax Imax M0 ..I0
[rpm] [kW] [Nm] [A] [kW] [rpm] [rpm] [kg] [kgm² [Nm] [A] [Nm] [A]
3500.. 50 ...136. 220 60.. 6000 10000. 90. 0,071 298. 400 160. 265

© SIEMENS AG Technische Änderungen vorbehalten Ausgabestand 
08/2010 Index --Dokument unterliegt nicht dem Änderungsdienst

On Jack's forum the Siemens data is given with graphs.

120kva input (300v x 400A) = ~96kw output. (80% efficiency)

298nm at 400A up to 3000 rpm.

give me a minute here and I'll post the graphs so we are all looking at the same data...


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> When you increase motor voltage there is also an increase in frequency


Only if you intend to keep the v/f constant with the lower voltage model... If you increase the v/f ratio according with the increase in voltage, the frequency would remain the same.

In the case of the Siemens motors, we seem to have the opposite. IMO the lower voltage models want a similar v/f as the back iron is the same in all models, however the LV models cant provide that flux at the higher frequency (read RPMs) required to make full power, and therefore hit field weakening earlier limiting power.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> What was questioned was your apparent method of developing theory from marketing spec sheets ignoring basic principles and then guaranteeing erroneous statements on the subject, IIRC


!
We were all thinking it 
Sorry Ruckus


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stiive said:


> If you increase the v/f ratio according with the increase in voltage, the frequency would remain the same.


Is this how you control your motor


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> Is this how you control your motor


Not directly, but by controlling the flux through vector control this is essentially what's happening.
Higher flux gives you a higher motor voltage per freq. Lower flux = lower voltage per freq. This means for a given slip and RPM, the frequency is constant but the flux is proportional to the increased voltage.

Perhaps you inferred that a higher voltage can lead ultimately to a higher RPM and therefore frequency? If so, I misinterpreted your comment... sorry.
But in the case of the Siemens, even the lower voltage winding can reach the motors mechanical limit of 10k RPM, albeit with less torque and therefore only under slightly lighter loads.

If i'm still misinterpreting you or missing something, please fill me in. I must admit, I was/am slightly confused by your statement. 
One can never stop learning about motors


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stiive said:


> Perhaps you inferred that a higher voltage can lead ultimately to a higher RPM and therefore frequency?


In the context of the discussion at hand, I thought it was obvious. Sorry 'bout that. It was an either or.....either increase current or increase voltage. Increase voltage will demand higher frequency (RPM). If not, then the control is really screwed


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> In the context of the discussion at hand, I thought it was obvious. Sorry 'bout that. It was an either or.....either increase current or increase voltage. Increase voltage will demand higher frequency (RPM). It not, then the control is really screwed



I still don't agree 100% with this though. 
You can have a 680V motor with nominal 50hz, or a 215V motor nominal 50hz... They both still operate nominally at 50hz, just one has a higher v/f ratio.

If you had one motor with two windings whose max flux (read saturation limit) is constant, then the HV model would have a higher theoretical RPM and maintain peak torque longer before weakening, therefore yielding a higher power output. 
This is assuming the windings maintain an A.turns equivalency


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> In the context of the discussion at hand, I thought it was obvious.


Ah sorry I think I understand you now.. 

Context is - Ruckus wanted to put either 750V and low amps, or 350V and high amps into the same motor&winding... Yes HV would increase speed and freq of the motor.

Just Tesseract changed the context to different motor windings after my comment, and the thread stayed there since. Sorry.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> Ruckus wanted to put either 750V and low amps, or 350V and high amps into the same motor&winding...


I suggested no such thing. Nor did I develop 'theory' from marketing materials (but I did think that was funny  )


I asked if the 5135-4ws14 could handle 600A. Seems there is only one way to find out... 

How else to get some decent torque out of it? Hard to get really excited about 298Nm unless you gear it super low and rev the hell out of it.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> The Siemens spec sheet lists the 5135 series at a max of 300A @ 750V for a max input of 225 kva and a listed max output of 200kw (88% efficient?).
> 
> If you apply that power at a lowly 350V it requires an input of 642A.
> 
> Now obviously the DMOC, Siemens, HEC, Brusa, etc... are not rated even close to that, but supposing one COULD find a 640A controller for the Siemens, would it handle that kind of input current? For 15 sec? For 30 sec?





Stiive said:


> Ruckus wanted to put either 750V and low amps, or 350V and high amps into the same motor&winding...





ruckus said:


> I suggested no such thing. Nor did I develop 'theory' from marketing materials (but I did think that was funny  )


I must have misinterpreted you then... Seems to me you were talking about the HV model stating it can do 750V





ruckus said:


> I asked if the 5135-4ws14 could handle 600A. Seems there is only one way to find out...


Of course you can put more current into it... but at reduced return if your already saturated.... and for how long depends on your cooling.... 




ruckus said:


> How else to get some decent torque out of it? Hard to get really excited about 298Nm unless you gear it super low and rev the hell out of it.


That's why it revs to 10k RPM... really what matters it the peak power, torque can be geared


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

The motor in question in this thread is the 5135-4ws14 which is a low voltage version made for AZD. As shown in the linked HEC spec sheet it is continuously rated at only 45kw and a peak of ~100kw.

The 4ws28 and 4ws24 are high-voltage versions of the same motor continuously rated at about 60kw with a peak of 150-200kw depending on the spec sheet.

Given that these all supposedly weigh the same, and have the same cooling system, even a small difference in efficiency at various voltages and windings would not account for the huge discrepancy in power.

It isn't unthinkable that the motor is 'derated' to match the AZD DMOC controller output and that paired with a more powerful controller this motor will 'come alive' .

Cheers.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> It isn't unthinkable that the motor is 'derated' to match the AZD DMOC controller output and that paired with a more powerful controller this motor will 'come alive' .


Yeh but where might one find a 'more powerful controller'?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I suggested no such thing. Nor did I develop 'theory' from marketing materials (but I did think that was funny  )


Well then, perhaps you can show me the scientific derivation for this statement of yours. 



> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Reddish
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Cc:
> ...


I had asked you several times back in December and all you could come up with was marketing spec sheets non related to your guaranteed statement.


----------



## hal2000 (Nov 15, 2012)

major said:


> Well then, perhaps you can show me the scientific derivation for this statement of yours.
> 
> I had asked you several times back in December and all you could come up with was marketing spec sheets non related to your guaranteed statement.


Major i'snt it generally accepted that increased amperage is what leads to increased internal resistance and heat buildup? Isn't that what has lead the OEM's to gradually migrate to higher and higher voltages in their motors?


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

hal2000 said:


> Major i'snt it generally accepted that increased amperage is what leads to increased internal resistance and heat buildup? Isn't that what has lead the OEM's to gradually migrate to higher and higher voltages in their motors?


Yes but this has more to do with the environment (Inverter e.t.c) of the motor than the motor itself. As rightly pointed out by Tesseract and Major the structure of the motor is more decisive than Volts and Amp values.
(Note: I am not saying high voltage equpment is more efficient than low voltage equipment in general. I am saying IF you use an Inverter for 3 phase motor it is "easier" to make it highly efficient for high voltage induction motor than low voltage induction motor)
If you look at efficiency values of low and high voltage motors itself (not the whole drivetrain) they are very similar (88-92% usually in best point)

But many low voltage induction motors are actually rewound high voltage ones, sometimes without change in rotor. These could leaad to more losses in rotor, but as I say it depends on the rotor structure.

Note: I have been using components from Infineon, former Siemens and they are specialiced in IGBT's. They have made both low voltage (230V, lately) and highvoltage prototypes (600 V, in the Siemens time) which I have tested and there is very little efficiency difference (about 0,5%, they are around 97% efficient). But for a very high power application (> 100 KW) this matters for cooling of the Inverter.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

hal2000 said:


> Major i'snt it generally accepted that increased amperage is what leads to increased internal resistance and heat buildup? Isn't that what has lead the OEM's to gradually migrate to higher and higher voltages in their motors?


Resistance does not increase with increased amperage  But to address your concern, please see post #27.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

ruckus said:


> It isn't unthinkable that the motor is 'derated' to match the AZD DMOC controller output and that paired with a more powerful controller this motor will 'come alive' .


Now we are on the same page here. I have been looking more close at the datasheet of the Motor and remembered one thread posted by a user Coulomb. There is a mention about 
S2: 3 min 20KW per 1000 U/min at 280A rms /
see 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=330954#post330954

This means you could theoretically draw out 150KW for 3 minutes at 7500U/min if you can hold 280A rms at this speed (you have only 40KW at 2000 U/min). I very much doubt. but that it would be possible to hold this for faster speeds, but if rpm is faster than 5000, you would most possibly be using mechanical gearing if more torque is needed.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Major, we've all seen your experiments trying to 'prove' the dangers of going over 72V:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlPYikt_qvo

Please stick on topic.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

This document seems to be genuinely from Siemens.
http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf

It states 298Nm at 400A, 300V.

Extrapolating that torque/Amp relationship at higher current levels you get:
(obviously there are some increasing losses, these are just ballpark numbers)

370Nm at 500A
440Nm at 600A
520Nm at 700A
590Nm at 800A

Crank the voltage up to 400V (350V full load), and it should pull pretty good up to about 3500-4000 rpm.

Now we are talking..


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ruckus said:


> This document seems to be genuinely from Siemens.
> http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf
> 
> It states 298Nm at 400A, 300V.
> ...





ruckus said:


> Extrapolating that torque/Amp relationship at higher current levels you get:


Although this is an acceptable approximation with series wound DC motors, it is invalid to use for induction motors. Going beyond the manufacturer's stated maximum torque or current is undoubtedly past breakdown torque.


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

ruckus said:


> This document seems to be genuinely from Siemens.
> http://media3.ev-tv.me/Azure300VDC-400Acurve.pdf
> 
> It states 298Nm at 400A, 300V.


Ok this shows that you can drive the motor on 400A for 0,5 minutes (it has been stated on other datasheets/plates that it can been driven at 280A for 3 minutes). 
I would think that this is the maximal current but I thought also before 300A was it. The theoretical limit seems then going to 200 kW (assuming the 500V version could do that too)
So who is going to make a try with a 10.000 Euro controller to prove that? 
I know Ballard did with 138 series, and was smoked bad (Powered by a fuel cell, this was a bus project)


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> Now we are on the same page here.





Stiive said:


> ruckus said:
> 
> 
> > Quote:
> ...


BTW, this was a joke... I wasn't actually agreeing with him


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Torque-speed at 310V.










Efficiencies at 310V


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

So those charts were made with a 250A controller?

A peak of 70kw isn't gonna give it much of a leg up on the HPEVS systems.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> So those charts were made with a 250A controller?


No, they're just the ratings at for 10minute continuous use at 35deg ambient with 8 l/min water cooling. This is the limit of the motor to withstand that power for 10mins - which is a long time by the way, and 70kW for 600seconds is nothing to scoff at.

The document later states "The cooling system was found to be quite
powerful: the limiting temperature of the inverter was never achieved, a reduction of power output was always due to the machine winding temperature." - And it's a 400A controller, so that should put your concerns at ease.



ruckus said:


> A peak of 70kw isn't gonna give it much of a leg up on the HPEVS systems.


A higher peak is given on the Siemens data nameplate as 3min rating, or 0.5min rating in the graph you linked.
The HPEVS is probably rated peak for <1min for marketing purposes (though i know nothing about the motor and haven't checked), you've got to compare apples with apples - and probably what's the most relevant is the continuous ratings. Some manufacturers rate at 60min, if so, the graph I provided shows about 55kW cont @ 35degC ambient.

If Siemens says the maximum current is 280A RMS (~400A peak) for <3mins, I'm inclined to believe them. You can push it harder say for 10seconds with diminishing returns if your only increasing current (hitting saturation), but it may take 10seconds to hit 150deg from 35deg, but 5minutes to cool back down to 35deg to do it again. Also if your increases the temp so quickly, you need very fast response of sensors and controller to turn it off in time without doing permanent damage to the motor.

It sounds like you are after a more powerful motor, then buy the 5138 or a PM motor.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

It sounds like you have a very interesting document there. Is it available online?

Just curious what the 215V version might be able to do since there are now quite a few out there after the AZD sale.

Yes, there is nothing beyond the point of saturation except destruction, but the critical question is the amps just before saturation. I think 298Nm at 400A is fairly close, but not quite the limit. 

I am sure that somebody will push that limit soon enough. Knowing humans


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I think 298Nm at 400A is fairly close, but not quite the limit.
> I am sure that somebody will push that limit soon enough. Knowing humans


Gotta get my water-cooled heatsink milled then i'll let you know


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Stiive said:


> Gotta get my water-cooled heatsink milled then i'll let you know


A 400A+ IGBT? Sounds interesting. What is the limit?


You spoke poorly of the DMOC which is also a 400A controller. Any particular complaints against it, or just that it is your competition?

Sounds like you are going into the controller business.


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Well I haven't seen the inside of a DMOC 645 but inside AZDs latest rendition of controller the 845 they were using SKiM 606GD066HD modules rated at 440 amps at 70C or if you can cool the junction down to 25C then your rated to 550 amps. Not bad for a footprint thats only 10cm x 15cm. 

Attached pics of these controllers. I have more than one. Same controllers as on the 645 (TIs 28F335 and 470 Cortex M3 device).


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Cool. 

Just to clarify, the Semikron Skim606GD066HD is rated at 641A at 25C and 512A at 70C. The nominal rating of 600A is good up to about 105F (42C). 

I have the 606 in the Scott Drive 200 that is going into the 36 IH with the BLDC, PMAC, or whatever you want to call it.

While it is capable of over 250kva peak, with battery sag, some heat, and motor losses I figure roughly 180kw output.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> A 400A+ IGBT? Sounds interesting. What is the limit?


Depends what power stage I put on it. 
ATM using 1200V 300A IGBTs, but also have a bunch of 600V600A IGBTs to blow up for 'research'. The final version for my project will be on a 600V900A brick




ruckus said:


> You spoke poorly of the DMOC which is also a 400A controller. Any particular complaints against it, or just that it is your competition?


I have seen/researched a few control/driver boards from across the models, and I don't like the design personally. Picked out a few component p/n's which seemed borderline spec'd, 2 layer boards, some crucial traces seemed too long & too many via's with no stitching caps, etc. I'm very picky though. 

Also, at the time it wasn't working yet people were still charging a premium for them... but I now see some people have got it spinning the Siemens motor which is cool, and now justifies the price. 

So no, not competition, all I meant was I wouldn't buy it over some of the better known brands.




ruckus said:


> Sounds like you are going into the controller business.


Nope, just writing a thesis on induction motor control. 
If I was going into business, I wouldnt of given away my schematic and code to so many people.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Stiive said:


> Also, at the time it wasn't working yet people were still charging a premium for them... but I now see some people have got it spinning the Siemens motor which is cool, and now justifies the price.


Any links to people who have it working?


----------



## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any links to people who have it working?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=z4jPGsW0U-Q


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any links to people who have it working?


and

http://www.wolftronix.com/dmoc645_003/IMAG0327.jpg
http://www.wolftronix.com/dmoc645_003/IMAG0329.jpg



http://www.wolftronix.com/dmoc645_003/VIDEO0009.mp4


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, good to see some progress being made. I might actually be able to turn the motor and controller I have into something more than expensive hunks of metal


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Are those folks starting with the 'blank' DMOC's from the AZD sale or did they have the code installed?

Never mind, it is from a Ford Ranger, so it had code.

I think JR3P was referring to the AZD sale DMOC's.

EVTV has one working in their Trans-connect, but not the ones on the shelves.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Weisheimer said:


> and
> 
> http://www.wolftronix.com/dmoc645_003/IMAG0327.jpg
> http://www.wolftronix.com/dmoc645_003/IMAG0329.jpg
> ...


Can't get that video to work and don't see the dmoc listed in his site. Does the link work for others?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I have a blank AZD unit. Didn't realize those in the videos were from Rangers.
Yes the link worked for me, you might need a different video player since it's an MP4. I downloaded it and used VLC player.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually in the comments he says the DMOC was a blank one from AZD that he loaded the firmware into. It's only the motor that was from a Ford Ranger.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Can't get that video to work and don't see the dmoc listed in his site. Does the link work for others?


It was a dead link to the video, but works for me now.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, good to see some progress being made. I might actually be able to turn the motor and controller I have into something more than expensive hunks of metal


I hope so! I want to see these things turned into some serious EVs.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

The latest EVTV episode has this motor spinning with the DMOC 645.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

winzeracer said:


> The latest EVTV episode has this motor spinning with the DMOC 645.


Yeah, it's my favorite episode of EVTV yet because of that.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Weisheimer gets the credit for being up-to-the-minute on the latest news. It was cool to see those very same vids in the EVTV episode. 

I see the AZD liquidation as a fundamental building block in the EV movement. A year ago if you even mentioned a potential benefit of going brushless an angry mob would attack you. Then the AZD sale flooded the market with cheap brushless motors/controllers and suddenly the same folks are Induction fans faster than Hilary Clinton becomes a Yankees fan..

Once everyone gets a taste of true 'maintenance free' driving, the EV scene will be forever altered... for the better. 

I firmly believe that EV's must become absolutely stone reliable if they are to be adopted into the mainstream. The adoption of brushless technology (and the higher voltages this allows) is a critical step along this path. The true test of an EV is whether you would hand the keys to your mother-in-law or teenage kid and let them drive it for 10 years unsupervised. If not, your design is not ready for prime-time. (which leads to the inevitable requirement of a basic bms... but that is another issue)

Cheers


----------



## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

RE BMS, and brushless, I couldn't agree more; and it's a very interesting fact that OEM EVs don't generally achieve any greater range than do the best of our conversions.

...but I'm still going to try to get hold of a Remy HVH250, despite having not long taken delivery of a Siemens 1PV5135-4WS28 ! ;-)


Cheers
Dave.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ruckus said:


> I see the AZD liquidation as a fundamental building block in the EV movement. A year ago if you even mentioned a potential benefit of going brushless an angry mob would attack you. Then the AZD sale flooded the market with cheap brushless motors/controllers and suddenly the same folks are Induction fans faster than Hilary Clinton becomes a Yankees fan..


That's funny since a number of us have been driving AC induction systems for a few years now.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

BREAKING NEWS!

Dr. Scott is running a Siemens with the SCOTT DRIVE 100 controller. 

He should have a video out shortly of it on the test jig/dyno. He will be using the R-EV BLDC in regen mode as a load, but has to wait for part of the coupler to be machined.

Not bad considering he just took possession of the motor a few weeks ago, had to find the outdated connectors, etc... 

Cheers


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## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

Brilliant - keep us posted !


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

ruckus said:


> BREAKING NEWS!
> 
> Dr. Scott is running a Siemens with the SCOTT DRIVE 100 controller.
> 
> He should have a video out shortly of it on the test jig/dyno. He will be using the R-EV BLDC in regen mode as a load, but has to wait for part of the coupler to be machined.


Well since noone but you knows who he is, you'll have to pass on my congratulations. And if _you _are the famed Dr Scott, congratulations.

Looking forward to the video and dyno results.



ruckus said:


> Not bad considering he just took possession of the motor a few weeks ago, had to find the outdated connectors, etc...


What were the other complications?


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Great Scott!


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Hollie Maea said:


> Great Scott!


haha nice one


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## E30_Dave (Apr 19, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> Great Scott!


 ROFL !


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Now all I need are some batteries that put out 1.21 Jigowatts.


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## Elegancec (May 23, 2012)

Im also interested of bringing this system to live.

Im thinking of putting the max. battery pack voltage to 450V. So if the batterys have to deliver the full 300A (the DMOC can do 400A RMS), they could drain to shortly below of 400V in operation.

So it would be very interesting to see, how much the system can deliver at this point. The cooling system will be really proper (911 original system), so I only need a good pump for the cooling medium and have an amount of more than 10l in the system, which can take quite a lot of energy and two big radiators, which are quite efficient and after each radiator a big fan which could also be used for cooling it down. I think there is no better cooling system.

So if I see it right, it was also stated it should be able to deliver more power with the higher voltage.

What would you guess is possible? The evtv guys say up to 150kW and I know the controller can do it shortly.


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Elegancec said:


> Im also interested of bringing this system to live.
> 
> Im thinking of putting the max. battery pack voltage to 450V. So if the batterys have to deliver the full 300A (the DMOC can do 400A RMS), they could drain to shortly below of 400V in operation.
> 
> ...


At least the motor can deliver the 150 kW for 1 minute but only when voltage well over 300V is applied. 400V should do it.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Every Scott Drive controller is tested to 100 kw on the factory dyno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F30AaYVSPck


Higher test levels can be achieved per customer request.


As for cooling, I would recommend the motor and controller have separate cooling systems. Otherwise, motor waste heat can affect controller output.

Cheers


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## Elegancec (May 23, 2012)

In Principle you are right ruckus,

but in this case of the very big cooling system Im thinking of putting the controller into the back pipe with fresh cool water and after this through the motor so in serial connection. Parallel requests an additional pump (1 for motor, 1 for controller and 1 for the heater).
I did not take a look afer the flow losses in the controller up to now, I have to check this if it is possible. The original setup was made for 300Hp ICE so about lets say at 25% efficiency 900kW heat losses. If I devide this by 50% to bring the temperature down of the cooling medium to lets say 90°C to 45°C, than I will have roughly about 450kW. Even if this really rough estimtion is not correct and in true world it would be 300kW because of the smaller dT, the motor will at worst case only deliver 18kW and the controller 5kW so 23kW max. The engine and controller will be plenty cooled down even in hottest situations.

So its only a matter of the flow (the pump can run on very low speed so quite efficient).


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## widlokm (Feb 28, 2014)

Dear Members,

I am new to this forum (Greetings to all of You!!), however I am following this thread quite closely. As an electronic designer with some experience in motor controllers I am planning do a conversion with Siemens motor and my own electronics (as a hobby project and then as a "running advertisement" for my friend electronics company).
Now I've red all 11 pages and I am really confused . Do we know the 1PV5135-4WS14 specifications for sure? One datasheet says 47kW, one 67kW and there is no single specs for peak power also. 
I've red that some of You made Your own controllers and run that motor from them, maybe someone knows answer to simple question: Which datasheet should I believe? 

Anyway it is strange that motor which seems to be rather high quality, well build item, creates so much confusion... 

Best Regards,
Michael Widlok


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

widlokm said:


> Dear Members,
> 
> I am new to this forum (Greetings to all of You!!), however I am following this thread quite closely. As an electronic designer with some experience in motor controllers I am planning do a conversion with Siemens motor and my own electronics (as a hobby project and then as a "running advertisement" for my friend electronics company).
> Now I've red all 11 pages and I am really confused . Do we know the 1PV5135-4WS14 specifications for sure? One datasheet says 47kW, one 67kW and there is no single specs for peak power also.
> ...


Ok this is what I have found out by asking (HEC for example) and testing (bought one motor on auction)

1PV5135-4WS14
Nominal power 40 kW (at 210V DC, 3000 RPM)
Maximal power 3 minutes 100 kW (at 400 V DC 6000 RPM)

Additional power 20kW/1000 RPM/ 50V

Maximal power < 1 minute 140kW at 8000 RPM (at 500 V DC)

Maximal torque 3 minutes 200 Nm at < 4000 RPM at 300A RMS (line current)

Maximal torque 0,5 minutes 300 Nm at < 3500 RPM at 400A (RMS (line current)


----------



## widlokm (Feb 28, 2014)

gunnarhs said:


> Ok this is what I have found out by asking (HEC for example) and testing (bought one motor on auction)
> 
> 1PV5135-4WS14
> Nominal power 40 kW (at 210V DC, 3000 RPM)
> ...


Many thanks gunnarhs!
It is only a pity that in many places we can find WAY to optimistic data for this motor.... And it is strange that this model is so weaker then 1PV5135-4WS28, if we can trust specifications for that one of course.

Regards,
Michael Widlok


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

widlokm said:


> Many thanks gunnarhs!
> It is only a pity that in many places we can find WAY to optimistic data for this motor.... And it is strange that this model is so weaker then 1PV5135-4WS28, if we can trust specifications for that one of course.
> 
> Regards,
> Michael Widlok


Hi,
it took me a while to figure out about this especially the 1PV5135-4WS14
(I had some practical experience with 1PV5135-4WS28 and 1PV5138 -motors in a bus with the applied Siemens Inverters).
I first thought that 1PV5135-4WS14 was much less powerful than 1PV5135-4WS28 but actually they have the same max-power of (theoretical) 150 kW but for different time.
On specs 1PV5135-4WS28 could even reach 200 kW but I have not experienced that on test-board (the 1PV5138 can do that)
See http://www.hec-drives.nl/Specs%20Siemens%201PV51XX.pdf
The difference in the nominal power is due to different stator windings(less resistance/inductance (?) with 4WS14 than 4WS28) which makes the 4WS14 suitable for lower nominal voltages 
(at cost of less time keeping the max 150 kW).
At the moment I have only the 1PV5135-4WS14 available but unfortunately not the 1.000.000 USD test-equipment I had at MAN 15 years ago. So have not pushed it yet with the equipment I have.
I intend to use the new HEC-Inverter which has been designed for this motor as my own inverter has only been for standard -motors up to 30 kW (50 kW max). 
But from what I have seen now with Siemens inverter the Siemens motors can hold their specs in case of torque and power. 
They had some efficiency issues not keeping the power-factor they promised over the range.
But maybe this is due to the inverters, I am going to find that out sometime.


----------



## widlokm (Feb 28, 2014)

Hello again gunnarhs,

I don't have experience with traction motors, however I've done some testing for mining-mills here in Poland. That usually were quite big motors (both DC and AC) 1MW up to 4.5MW (8MW max) in one case. The rated voltage and current do not have much influence on motor size or efficiency, the dominant factor is always torque. And that is what I've learned long time ago . 
4WS14 and 4WS28 has the same case, and the same cooling system - for me it seems that 4WS14 has actually lower efficiency (I might be wrong). Also max torque is more then 2 times less then 4WS28 - why? Torque is proportional to ampere-turns, lower voltage should mean less turns but larger wires, so also higher maximum current. 
In fact Siemens specs simply contradict my experience with motors . Or we should assume that 4WS14 is ... well ... not high quality product.
Best Regards,
Michael Widlok


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Has anyone tried pushing more than 400 amps through one? Even for a short period of time, 30 seconds or so, would be a nice performance boost for a vehicle, if it didn't melt the motor or something.


----------



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Has anyone tried pushing more than 400 amps through one? Even for a short period of time, 30 seconds or so, would be a nice performance boost for a vehicle, if it didn't melt the motor or something.


Dunno.
I'll give it a try - I'm sure it wouldn't melt.


----------



## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

widlokm said:


> Hello again gunnarhs,
> 
> I don't have experience with traction motors, however I've done some testing for mining-mills here in Poland. That usually were quite big motors (both DC and AC) 1MW up to 4.5MW (8MW max) in one case. The rated voltage and current do not have much influence on motor size or efficiency, the dominant factor is always torque. And that is what I've learned long time ago .
> 4WS14 and 4WS28 has the same case, and the same cooling system - for me it seems that 4WS14 has actually lower efficiency (I might be wrong). Also max torque is more then 2 times less then 4WS28 - why? Torque is proportional to ampere-turns, lower voltage should mean less turns but larger wires, so also higher maximum current.
> ...


I agree on you with this, the 4WS14 is behaving different to my experience with standard motors at least. Without having had any confirmation on this and without having opened the motor I would expect the 4WS28 to be the original version and the 4WS14 to be a sort of rewound version with thicker wires and fewer turns. 
This would give more current at lower voltage (due to less resistance).
The (copper) loss which generates the heat in stator should be same at least at the lower voltages (P = I*R*R with R(WS14) < R(WS28) if this is done correctly and so the cooling could stay the same.
However fewer turns mean worse fluxing and even if (in the end) the induced rotor current would be the same (not sure it will)
the (constant) torque over time would be lower, it could reach the same momentan pike torque though.
And I am quite sure that the lower (rewound) voltage motor has a worse power factor than the (optimal) higher voltage , especially when not fully loaded and not driving at nominal values.
The Siemens specs however give nominal values for one hour and their max-values should be given for 3 minutes cycle at least. They could though been pushed harder for less time but I would dought that it is possible to increase max values more 2,5 times nominal and still getting proptional mechancal values. Meaning maybe you would see 450A going in at same voltage but the mechanical torque/power generated would still bee the same as previous max values, only heat will increase.


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## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm planning on using a Siemens 5135-4WS14 for a conversion. Great specs. 



> Ruckus quote:
> I asked if the 5135-4ws14 could handle 600A. Seems there is only one way to find out...
> How else to get some decent torque out of it? Hard to get really excited about 298Nm unless you gear it super low and rev the hell out of it.


 As an (electrical) engineer I agree: a single 5135-4WS14 is more suitable for a drivetrain with a gearbox. I'm going to use a 4 speed automatic gearbox with lockup. 

Getting more torque with higher amps than specified? More likely that you'll be making crispy toast of the winding insulation in no time. 
And you won't get the high torque since the slip will exceed the torque breakdown point. 
This is all basic induction motor behaviour governed by a simple set of Steinmetz equations (see wikipedia.org, induction motor). 

Also, exceeding the the maximum V/f ratio is not a good idea. 15 % overvoltage (saddle, third harmonic or SVPWM) is generally acceptable for motors designed for inverter use. 
If you saturate the core at high phase currents, the Steinmetz inductance drops like a brick and the inverter will probably die. 
Only inverters with a really good (fast) overcurrent protection survive.

Some basic Steinmetz parameter calculation and estimation attached.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tony Bogs said:


> ..........
> Some basic Steinmetz parameter calculation and estimation attached.


From your attachment: 


> 300V DC means phase voltage is 2/3 x 300 / 1.41 = 142 Vrms.


The standard 3 phase bridge inverter puts out a maximum RMS phase voltage of about 212 VAC for a 300 VDC input. Of course you can get any value under this maximum. Why do you choose to use 2/3?


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## widlokm (Feb 28, 2014)

Tony Bogs said:


> I'm planning on using a Siemens 5135-4WS14 for a conversion. Great specs.
> 
> As an (electrical) engineer I agree: a single 5135-4WS14 is more suitable for a drivetrain with a gearbox. I'm going to use a 4 speed automatic gearbox with lockup.
> 
> ...


Tony,

There was a great article: "Full-Scale Hardware-in-the-Loop Verification Envitonment for Heavy-Duty Hybrid Electric Vehicles" by Ari Hentunen, Jussi Suomela, Antti Leivo, Matti Liukkonen and Panu Sainio, published in World Electric Vehicle Journal Vol.4 - ISSN 2032-6653 - 2010 WEVA. I've downloaded it from the INTERNET, don't remember from where.

They were testing 5135-4WS28 and made a nice efficiency graph in the end. It showed that using the motor with higher rpm is generally more effective. It's very likely that 5135-4WS14 might have similar characteristics. I'm going to use 4WS28 in my conversion and I'm planning to leave manual gearbox in place. Anyway only 2'nd and 3'rd gears seems to be usable (1'st for burning tiers ).

Best Regards,
Michael Widlok


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## luminarycrush (Jan 13, 2011)

Does anyone have road reports about this motor? Any real-world performance testing? There's speculation in this thread about brief 150Kw output with sufficient cooling - has anyone tested that? What would sufficient cooling be?

If so, what controller has been used? I see that the Scott Drive 100 and 200 both support this motor.

Just curious as this seems like a good candidate for my first electric conversion project (Porsche 914) with regards to price/performance and features (use existing transaxle, have regenerative braking). I'm an electric car noob though and occasional lurker here.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

luminarycrush said:


> If so, what controller has been used? I see that the Scott Drive 100 and 200 both support this motor.


Well, supposedly the Scott Drive works with it. There is video evidence of it spinning the motor, but that tells you nothing. I still haven't heard of anyone using it, so it's a bit of an unknown quantity. Ruckus let us know that it was the greatest inverter that ever inverted, and that anyone who didn't buy one was an idiot. But I don't know if anyone went down the path of being the first guinea pig. If it's half the controller he said it is, then it's probably the best on the market, forged straight from the genius of Dr. Scott himself, whoever that is.

Alternatively, there is, of course there is the Azure Dynamics DMOC 645. It was created for the express purpose of spinning this motor. They made a bunch of them and then went bankrupt and had to give them away. There are occasionally people selling them for next to nothing, though not as many these days. The other option is, Jack Rickard will sell you one for five times what he paid for it. But he paid very little so it's still relatively cheap. As far as I can tell, Azure Dynamics didn't have any mechanical engineers on staff, so they just kept making it bigger until it worked. That ended up being 60 lbs and about the size of a refrigerator. But if you have a cavernous area to work with, it's the cheapest automotive grade inverter you can get for this motor, even at Jack's price. If you don't buy it from him, you will have the task of finding the magic secret CANBUS messages you need to run it.

Personally, if I had this motor I would go with the Rinehart Motion Systems PM100DX. It comes set up to run this motor out of the box, it's only a couple hundred dollars more than the Scott Drive, it weighs half what the Scott Drive does (and a quarter of the DMOC!) and it is a known quantity with a well established track record.


Or, if you are adventurous , you could build your own inverter for a thousand or two in parts. Johannes Hubner, on this board, has worked out a pretty good system that isn't quite as professional as say the Rinehart, but seems to work pretty well. Budget extra for blown test IGBT.


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## Elegancec (May 23, 2012)

At Vaxo, this controller costs about 8000USD. Is that the normal price?
By the end of the year I will spin it in my 911 with the AZD controller.


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## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

HEC also make inverters for the Siemens motors: http://www.hec-drives.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=3

I'm currently in the process of a build using the TI-9030 and a Siemens 1PV5138-4WS24 motor.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Hollie Maea said:


> Alternatively, there is, of course there is the Azure Dynamics DMOC 645. It was created for the express purpose of spinning this motor. They made a bunch of them and then went bankrupt and had to give them away. There are occasionally people selling them for next to nothing, though not as many these days. The other option is, Jack Rickard will sell you one for five times what he paid for it. But he paid very little so it's still relatively cheap. As far as I can tell, Azure Dynamics didn't have any mechanical engineers on staff, so they just kept making it bigger until it worked. That ended up being 60 lbs and about the size of a refrigerator. But if you have a cavernous area to work with, it's the cheapest automotive grade inverter you can get for this motor, even at Jack's price. If you don't buy it from him, you will have the task of finding the magic secret CANBUS messages you need to run it.


For what it's worth: I still have a spare DMOC645 that I will sell. I'd probably sell it for around $2500 which is probably the cheapest you'll find right now. I'm also one of the people who helped to get the DMOC645 running in hobbyist cars so if someone buys from me I'll help to get it working. But, yes, it's a rather large controller.



> Personally, if I had this motor I would go with the Rinehart Motion Systems PM100DX. It comes set up to run this motor out of the box, it's only a couple hundred dollars more than the Scott Drive, it weighs half what the Scott Drive does (and a quarter of the DMOC!) and it is a known quantity with a well established track record.


I hadn't seen the price of the Scott drive but if it's only a couple hundred less than the PM100DX then it's too expensive. I like the PM100DX. I'd love to use one. But, good God those things are pricey! The problem I have is that I've already got DMOCs and got them cheaply. But, I'd second the recommendation. If you've got the money then the Rinehart PM100DX is the way to go - hands down. You wouldn't be sorry. If you don't have that kind of money then buy a DMOC from me.  

Eventually the supply of DMOCs will be exhausted and then the only choices are to pay the several thousand for something like a Rinehart / Scott controller or build one. When that time comes I'll probably be throwing my hat into the ring on one of the two sides (either working with one of the expensive companies or working against them with an open source project to help get it up to snuff to compete). The thing is, a PM100DX doesn't have to be that much money. It's a question of scale. If everyone in the hobbyist world got together and decided to forego DC and everyone bought a PM100DX or PM150DX then the price could come way down. But, the market has to be there. A company can't make money selling controllers for near cost to 20 people a year. And so, they set prices that are high. These prices then lead people to the alternatives. And so the cycle continues. It's a problem as old as time.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

luminarycrush said:


> Does anyone have road reports about this motor? Any real-world performance testing? There's speculation in this thread about brief 150Kw output with sufficient cooling - has anyone tested that? What would sufficient cooling be?
> 
> If so, what controller has been used? I see that the Scott Drive 100 and 200 both support this motor.
> 
> Just curious as this seems like a good candidate for my first electric conversion project (Porsche 914) with regards to price/performance and features (use existing transaxle, have regenerative braking). I'm an electric car noob though and occasional lurker here.


I have only tested the Siemens Motors (135/138) on Bench with Fuel cell equipment intended for Bus, I did not drive the Bus myself (MAN experience 15 years ago). 
At this times it was with the Siemens Simovert inverters, you could get them from HEC or from Metricmind. This were the higher Voltage versions 500V +. (not the 200 V 4WS14 version)
I have one Siemens 1PV5135-4WS14 myself but I have not stretched it, you can use it with higher Voltages too 
I can assure you though that you can drive it well over 100 kW for short time an adequate cooling (16l/min with standard glycol engine coolant/water mixture).
I assume you would use lower voltages in your Porsche and you are not part of the 500 Million Euro Budget Porsche got from EU to convert 10 crappy cars 
So you could use the Inverters suggested from the other users here in above threads (HEC, Rhinehart, DMOC, and even Scott if you are sound resistant)
(I am though waiting to test the TI-4520 from HEC as it is specially made for 4WS14 version)
If you like to learn it the fun but hard way you could either buy the Huebner kit or the PHEV-Infineon kit , either in parts or assembled.
Both need though a redesign if you want to get more than 50 kW out from the Siemens Motor, you can get open source support from Huebner and others, Infineon platform is open source too but you are on your own with it as most using it do not work open source (OEM most).
Another member here Stiive has also made a controller for 1PV5135-4WS14, I think it is for research more than selling but you can look through his thread here and contact him for some tips.


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## luminarycrush (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.



> I'm currently in the process of a build using the TI-9030 and a Siemens 1PV5138-4WS24 motor.


The website doesn't have prices - what does that controller cost? Is there some field experience with this setup?



> > Personally, if I had this motor I would go with the Rinehart Motion Systems PM100DX. It comes set up to run this motor out of the box, it's only a couple hundred dollars more than the Scott Drive, it weighs half what the Scott Drive does (and a quarter of the DMOC!) and it is a known quantity with a well established track record.
> 
> 
> I hadn't seen the price of the Scott drive but if it's only a couple hundred less than the PM100DX then it's too expensive. I like the PM100DX. I'd love to use one. But, good God those things are pricey! The problem I have is that I've already got DMOCs and got them cheaply. But, I'd second the recommendation. If you've got the money then the Rinehart PM100DX is the way to go - hands down. You wouldn't be sorry. If you don't have that kind of money then buy a DMOC from me.


Currently, the Scott 100 controller is $4900 and the PM100DX is $5200 at EVwest.com. Is that a representative price? $2500 for a DMOC makes my budget very much happier, but depending on the size that could be an issue on the 914 unless I want to give up all cargo space to batteries (which I don't). An extra $2500 also buys a lot of batteries.

If it wasn't always a trade-off I suppose we'd all be buying the same equipment. Will it work/handle 150kW/what size/what price?



> I can assure you though that you can drive it well over 100 kW for short time an adequate cooling (16l/min with standard glycol engine coolant/water mixture).


This is what I'm reading here and there - I'm hoping to have something substantiated. With coolant flow their needs to also be adequate radiator surface. The 914 has none. I think it would be easy enough to put 'side radiators' in the car (like newer liquid-cooled Porsches have; consider the Boxster air inlets http://www.porsche-mania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2007-porsche-boxster-s.jpg which could perhaps also double as heaters since the 914's heating ducts are in that area of the car (providing the electric motors produce enough heat that is...). 



> I assume you would use lower voltages in your Porsche and you are not part of the 500 Million Euro Budget Porsche got from EU to convert 10 crappy cars


Where to I apply for this?!?

I have read lots of stories about conversions and know I guy who has done one - and often they scrap what they did because they didn't like something (power, range, etc) and do something over... then half the time do something else over again, and so on.

I've built plenty of dino-powered 'fast' cars and offroad trucks and at this point I'm done with them (I'll never own another gas-only car), and while I'm an engineer and pretty handy in general my practical knowledge of electric car powerplant/controller is limited. I don't want to make any expensive (time and $-wise) mistakes, which might lead to a final project that I'm not happy with. Without getting too much into the design goals in a motor thread, I want something that has sport-car acceleration possible (hence brief periods of above 100kW and up to 150kW for acceleration would make the 914 pretty snappy, based on gas-engine upgrades I've seen), usable range (100+ miles) and has heating and air conditioning.

The glider is stripped now and in primer, sitting under a car cover. Looking at lots of other 914 projects I have a general plan of attack, but to move forward it seems a motor and controller choice needs to happen soon so I can start planning optimal layout of the engine bay (if I need to modify the body for mounts, etc, best to do before any kind of final paint).

If the 1PV5135-4WS14 really can push 150kW for short periods of time and sustain 100kW for long periods of time despite it's 45kW rating it seems like a good choice.


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