# Orion BMS CCS DC charging



## Lolimpol (Jul 18, 2020)

Hi,
I'm looking into buying an Orion 2 BMS, which has native SAE J1772 support, so does this mean I can wire it up with a CCS type 2 port? Or am I going to have to get a normal AC type 2, and a CHAdeMO?


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

Lolimpol said:


> Hi,
> I'm looking into buying an Orion 2 BMS, which has native SAE J1772 support, so does this mean I can wire it up with a CCS type 2 port? Or am I going to have to get a normal AC type 2, and a CHAdeMO?


Apparently, Orion is working on offering CCS support (possibly an add-on module?); however, I haven't heard anything definite yet. Basically, I think a number of us are waiting on it.


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

For CCS you need a special module that can communicate over IEC15118 or DIN70121 compliant protocol using GreenPHY as physical layer. I have used one such module from Auronik (they were bought by Akka a while back) but it worked terribly and the price was about 1500 EUR for <10 pcs. I do have access to IEC15118 specification and have a good insight as how it works under the hood and was actually thinking of making an low cost version of it a while back, but didn't have the time. Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to pay for such module?


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## Lolimpol (Jul 18, 2020)

I have no clue, most controller replacements etc, are around €300, so I'd say anywhere from €100 to €300.

Also, since you know a bit about the protocol, I'd like to get about a 100V battery, since that's what the Hyper 9 motor wants (and it's safer). But CCS spec says it goes down to about 200V. So would it be possible to simply install a DC/DC converter between the port and battery? Or would this mess with the BMS communication?


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

Well 200V is the minimum for the standard, doesn't mean that there are no stations that support lower voltage charging. It means that in order for charger to be compliant with the standard it must support those ranges. The reason it doesn't say from for example 10V is because designing converters that have such a wide operating range is hard, if not impossible, while also maintaining efficiency. Typical converters have about 1:2 to 1:5 minimum to maximum voltage ratios. Also the limiting factor for power is usually the current, so by lowering voltage you also lower the power available for charging. And since the EVs usualy have 200-450 VDC battery pack voltages, this was a logical tradeoff, while also allowing higher voltages for some high-performing EVs.

As for your question regarding the DCDC converter between charger and battery, two things you should keep in mind. 1. the DCDC must be able to work with full charging power 2. you should be able to regulate the output current from DCDC OR you should have a DC transformer module which basically keeps constant ratio between output and input voltages. Either way i think it would be very expensive.


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## Lolimpol (Jul 18, 2020)

You're right, but if I do go with DC charging functionality, I don't want to show up at a DC charger only to find out it doesn't support a low enough voltage.

What I think I'll do when CCS type 2 is better documented and supported, is upgrade my battery pack to 200-300v anyways, and try to run the controller off a DC-DC converter. Which should be much cheaper, especially considering the Hyper 9's relatively low power usage.

Thanks for helping me out!


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## alex d (May 10, 2015)

zero-EV is currently developing a CCS charge controller that will work with the Orion BMS


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

Do you know what is the status of the project, or at least the timeline? I can't seem to find anything about it.


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## alexbeatle (Jul 28, 2020)

+1 to have an accessible CCS controller.
Seems like every post I read - anywhere on the web - regardless of the year posted, there's always some company "currently developing" their own solution, but no update afterwatds.


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Came from the other CCS thread...
CCS is a gigantic pain in the ass (I started reading through a free download from some RISE-V2G website).
Getting the hardware is bad enough, but the protocol is ridiculously complicated -- in the name of safety and 'security' aka protecting their own IP. There's a Github repository with some Java that apparently implements it, but I don't know where to start. https://github.com/V2GClarity/RISE-V2G

There's been some discussion of using an EU Tesla port, since that would possibly be controlled over CAN. But nobody's really on it yet.

I'd pay $300 for a CCS controller. I've done CHAdeMO, it's not bad, but CCS is beyond my level.

-Isaac


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

Looks like someone beat me to it... 





PEV (Electro Vehicle) side PLC / Home Plug Green Phy communication Module for ISO/IEC15118 / DIN 70121 / SAE J2847/2


HomePlug Green Phy Power Line Communication (PLC) Modul mit Qualcomm QCA7005 für ISO/IEC15118-3 / DIN 70121 / SAE J2847/2 Applikationen, Fahrzeugseite (PEV), Qualcomm, Devolo, I2SE, In-Tech, 8Devices, Sevenstax




www.codico.com




.

Although it does say COMING SOON :\


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

mpopov23 said:


> Looks like someone beat me to it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well... It doesn't look to be very easy to interface...
Option 2 seems to implement the full ISO15118 stack, with a simple API for control over CAN, SPI, USB, or Ethernet. That would probably be the most useful.


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

mpopov23 said:


> Looks like someone beat me to it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not a product until someone can buy it.


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

In last two weeks I downloaded latest RISE-V2G code and successfully compiled it. I also managed to run a test on PC with dummy example where you have one software instance for SECC and one for EVCC and it worked. The code is structured in a way that the core of the IEC15118 protocol is fully implemented, you are responsible for implementing the access to the HW layer such as setting CP pins and also to implement control interface from the EV side for sending the target voltage, current, etc.

My idea was to use BeagleBone Black single board computer for running the RISE-V2G stack and create cape with STM32 MCU for interfacing with CP/PP/Lock motor electronics that uses UART for communication with RISE-V2G stack.

For the EV comms i was thinking of using one of two CAN interfaces on BBB itself.

Currently i am writing a PC simulator code that would simulate the UART data being sent from MCU so that i have more clear requirements for the hardware and also to simplify transition to actual hardware.

Also i have ordered two QCA7000 modules for testing.

Stay tuned...


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## Ladogaboy (Apr 25, 2010)

mpopov23 said:


> In last two weeks I downloaded latest RISE-V2G code and successfully compiled it. I also managed to run a test on PC with dummy example where you have one software instance for SECC and one for EVCC and it worked. The code is structured in a way that the core of the IEC15118 protocol is fully implemented, you are responsible for implementing the access to the HW layer such as setting CP pins and also to implement control interface from the EV side for sending the target voltage, current, etc.
> 
> My idea was to use BeagleBone Black single board computer for running the RISE-V2G stack and create cape with STM32 MCU for interfacing with CP/PP/Lock motor electronics that uses UART for communication with RISE-V2G stack.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update!


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## mdrobnak (Mar 19, 2020)

mpopov23 said:


> Also i have ordered two QCA7000 modules for testing.
> 
> Stay tuned...


This is great. I was considering going another route on the Tesla side by using some of what they did on the CHAdeMO adapter, but I haven't gotten that far. Glad to see the reference code seems to work. Running a Java server stack definitely sucks, but the flip side is being able to use 'standard' Linux tools makes debugging easier for those well versed in that sort of thing.

Which module did you order? They looked to be a pain in the butt to solder by hand...

-Matt


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## mpopov23 (Aug 13, 2014)

mdrobnak said:


> This is great. I was considering going another route on the Tesla side by using some of what they did on the CHAdeMO adapter, but I haven't gotten that far. Glad to see the reference code seems to work. Running a Java server stack definitely sucks, but the flip side is being able to use 'standard' Linux tools makes debugging easier for those well versed in that sort of thing.
> 
> Which module did you order? They looked to be a pain in the butt to solder by hand...
> 
> -Matt


I'm not particularly thrilled using Java stack due to high overhead (it takes about two minutes to boot just the Java VM on BBB, or at least that is my experience) and as of recent JDK licencing mess. But it does seem to be well maintained and worked on constantly for last couple of years.

I ordered Yellow beet PEV, I'm thinking of trying to solder them using through hole pads from the botttom.

I'm still not sure how I'm gonna test it all once and if i get it running :\

-Mario


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## mdrobnak (Mar 19, 2020)

Well, 58 Euro + ~80? Euro for beagle is much better than 329 Euro for the white beet! But the flip side is more work on the software front.

That's a long boot, but if you do something like a sleep mode then its not awful to wake up from. At least that's how I'd do it if it is possible.

I look forward to seeing where it goes.

-Matt


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

Mario, this is great news! I'm currently talking to In-Tech about one of their CCS control modules, which has Linux onboard and ISO/DIN software. If their pricing is too high I might go the way of the Beagle and Beet.
Charge Control M

I've got a CCS/CHAdeMO station a few minutes away that has been good for CHAdeMO testing -- if I go your way I'd be glad to test software.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

subscribing, consider me extremely interested, as high speed charging is a must for my project and chademo is a dying standard, plus capped at 50kw


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## Isaac97 (Jun 3, 2019)

I talked to In-Tech about their CCS solutions -- they gave me a price of 1500 euros. Let's just say I won't be going that route. So I'll be following @mpopov23's Beagle solution.

Note that in the US, there are similar numbers of CHAdeMO and CCS stations -- at least for now. Many stations are CCS and CHAdeMO. But the low power of CHAdeMO is quite painful.


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## HansG (Dec 1, 2020)

CCS Type2 Fast Charging Kit







zero-ev.co.uk





A little too expensive maybe.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

HansG said:


> CCS Type2 Fast Charging Kit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to guess that a good 80% of that cost is recouping r&d expenses since getting ccs to work must have been an absolute nightmare of a thing.

Still, that's $4800, and that's just the add on, on top of the bms itself. That's really damn expensive


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## alexbeatle (Jul 28, 2020)

At least we are getting somewhere here. These do not yet support Type 1 through - used in the NA


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You can get an adapter if the connector is the showstopper.

Their pricing is double what I'd consider the high side of reasonable cost. They're at the price of a wrecked car, lol.


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## alexbeatle (Jul 28, 2020)

I agree. I follow them on Insta and when the CCS breakthrough got announced it was exciting, but looking at the price - think I won't plan for CCS just yet.

I've asked them about using an adaptor. They've told me that there's some software difference between CCS1 and CCS2, so not sure.


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## HansG (Dec 1, 2020)

EV Charge Controller (CCS)


EV Charge Controller (CCS) Electric Vehicle onboard charge controller for DC and AC charging standards. High versatility, thanks to support of user-written applications.




store.advantics.fr





"

CAN bus 2.0B for communication with the vehicle
Users can deploy their own code (C/C++, Python)
"


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## alexbeatle (Jul 28, 2020)

HansG said:


> EV Charge Controller (CCS)
> 
> 
> EV Charge Controller (CCS) Electric Vehicle onboard charge controller for DC and AC charging standards. High versatility, thanks to support of user-written applications.
> ...


Have you or anybody here used it? Maybe even in conjunction with the Orion?


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## mdrobnak (Mar 19, 2020)

That's still expensive for the advantics one. Cost of actual CCS controller + R&D is indeed where the pricing is coming from.
You can likely use that CCS kit with any BMS, I don't think it requires the Orion.


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## HansG (Dec 1, 2020)

Here are some guys trying to use a Hyundai Kona control box as a CCS-to-CAN bridge. The unit is about $ 250 but can be found in scrapped cars cheaper. Maybe one of you can help with the task? 



Hyundai Kona CCS controller - openinverter forum


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

HansG said:


> Hyundai Kona CCS controller - openinverter forum


I was hoping something like that existed, just a "dumb" ccs to can translator we as converters could just grab and throw in, once it's reverse engineered...

Those last two posts about charge rate are concerning though, but hopefully indeed it's a bms limitation rather than the ccs converter module.


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## RazorDude (Apr 1, 2021)

mpopov23 said:


> In last two weeks I downloaded latest RISE-V2G code and successfully compiled it. I also managed to run a test on PC with dummy example where you have one software instance for SECC and one for EVCC and it worked. The code is structured in a way that the core of the IEC15118 protocol is fully implemented, you are responsible for implementing the access to the HW layer such as setting CP pins and also to implement control interface from the EV side for sending the target voltage, current, etc.
> 
> My idea was to use BeagleBone Black single board computer for running the RISE-V2G stack and create cape with STM32 MCU for interfacing with CP/PP/Lock motor electronics that uses UART for communication with RISE-V2G stack.
> 
> ...


Hey, any progress on that yet? I'm converting an electric motorcycle and my friends won't be waiting for me to charge my 200Ah battery for 10 hours with a 20A charger


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## Sandeep (Aug 12, 2021)

Ladogaboy said:


> Thanks for the update!


Hi can you help him how to start CCS devlopment
I have ordered Qualcomm iC and even builded the board.
I have studied the standards *& V2G github code but couldn't understand how to start.
Can you help me on this


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## Sandeep (Aug 12, 2021)

Ladogaboy said:


> Thanks for the update!


Hi can you help him how to start CCS devlopment
I have ordered Qualcomm iC and even builded the board.
I have studied the standards *& V2G github code but couldn't understand how to start.
Can you help me on this


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## RazorDude (Apr 1, 2021)

Sandeep said:


> Hi can you help him how to start CCS devlopment
> I have ordered Qualcomm iC and even builded the board.
> I have studied the standards *& V2G github code but couldn't understand how to start.
> Can you help me on this


Hi Sandeep,
I'm eager to help in any way I can. I also studied the CCS standard and I think I have a good understanding of how it can be made to work. I'm also a very experienced software developer and I have a background in electrical engineering. Do you want to collaborate somehow on this? If so, let me know how we can connect.


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## HansG (Dec 1, 2020)

Here it is! 
CCS charging with a cheap BMW i3 module fed with CAN bus protocol.


Ionity ABB CCS Charging Success - YouTube
BMW I3 Fast Charging LIM Module - openinverter.org wiki
BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller - Page 26 - openinverter forum


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

damien does it again

on the aftermarket side, orion's ccs module isnt done yet but is apparently close to release

AEM EV is also wrapping up BMS units that use a master/slave architecture, with their VCU doing the vast majority of the thinking, the lil bms units mostly just take battery data and feed it back as can messages 
they're pretty small, about the size of the PDU units.





PDU-8 Eight-Channel Power Distribution Unit | AEM EV







www.aemev.com




Those will apparently also be getting CCS support....although i don't know if it'll be an additional hardware buy or just a software flash for the bms units

the fellow at holley high voltage claimed they'd have an initial slow-ish charge release, and then have software updates to allow for higher and higher peak kw charge rate as they validate it


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