# Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

There is also the WarP-Drive 160V for $1950. I don't think there is a
low voltage version of the Soliton1.


-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

You might not have the money to do it right, but you will find the money to do it twice ( or three times I've heard in some cases)
when your controller fails. Buy the Zilla! There are Zilla's on the shelf now. Of all the controllers in the list you name I have
not heard a single flame story from a Zilla owner. I own two and let me tell you something, a Hairball and a water pump may seem
complicated, but they are really just another box. And the safety interlocks are worth their weight in gold because as you become
more familiar with your car, the more careless you get. Having the Hairball lock the main contactor open while charging is a good
thing. Having the Hairball shut down on excessive motor RPM is a good thing which will save you "from doing it twice". Having the
Hairball not let the controller take your pack below a certain voltage, ever, is a good thing. Having the Hairball not allow more
than a certain current to be drawn from the batteries, or more than a certain current to be delivered to the motor, is a good thing.
Having the Hairball automatically pre-charge your main contactor is a good thing. Having the Hairball go to Valet mode when you let
your kid drive is a good thing. Having the Hairball shift a Forward/Reverse contactor is a good thing if you are considering direct
drive. All of these things and more are still possible with any of the other controllers, except you will be adding a lot of
external components and getting into designing their operation, because they are not already built in. For the Zilla, all you have
to add is a Hairball and a water pump. And besides, water pumps are easy ;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sisson
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:19 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project. A
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack to
> use with my Warp-8 motor.
> The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller that
> uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> reliability and the list gets smaller.
> 
> For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975
> 
> I chose these voltages as they will allow for a "Fresh off the charger 144V
> pack." Kelly has a higher amperage unit, but not at 156V, all of the other
> units are 156V so I went with that.
> 
> The Zilla is the indestructible "platinum" controller, but also requires the
> most additional stuff to make it work (water cooling, Hairball, etc.)
> 
> The Kelly is the NOT the cheapest, but has the lowest constant usable
> current and is known to have overheating current cutback problems; don't
> know about adding the FANS they now show.
> 
> Logisystems has the lowest price but is also the 'least smart' as it has no
> computer interface and SEEMS like an overgrown Curtis.
> 
> The Curtis, although a standard for a long time, is not smart and is low on
> the current and voltage scale.
> Alltrax didn't seem to have anything above 72V which would mean much higher
> currents and subsequent losses.
> 
> I am tempted to toss out the Kelly simply because of the reputation of not
> being able to deliver the current over time, and the Logisystems as
> "screwdriver ports" for adjusting acceleration ramps is not in the same
> league as the others.
> 
> That leaves the Synkromotive in the middle as a smart, programmable and
> seemingly robust controller. I am not fond of the INTERNAL FANS, but I
> don't plan to mount it where it will be directly exposed to spray, but it is
> a concern.
> There are LOTS of controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a
> "robust" controller that uses higher voltages and currents, the field
> narrows FAST. Add high reliability and the list gets smaller.
> 
> The Zilla is the hands down best controller period. but it has a waiting
> list, requires Water cooling, and has far more interlocks, sensors, and
> STUFF to make it work. The Syncromotive controller SEEMS like a simpler and
> only slightly less expensive choice that will do more than what I need. The
> Syncromotive controller is NEW, but went through some good testing and BETA
> work.
> 
> I also like that the Synkromotive goes down to 48V so I can inexpensively
> get it running in the Shop/Parking lot with some 2nd hand Lead cells THEN
> order the 144V (ouch) LifePo4 packs/modules/cells.
> 
> QUESTION. Is the Sycromotive the best choice for my lightweight conversion?
> Have I missed any choices?
> 
> I ponder this question as except for the Motor, the Controller is the single
> largest expense. Everything else can be bought a little at a time. even
> the Batteries can be bought a cell/module at a time. but the controller is a
> BIG OUCH all at once, and I really can't afford to blow one up, or have to
> buy another because of lousy performance in a year.
> 
> 
> Bob Sisson
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
> Gaithersburg MD
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I once got some advice that I try to live by, and it's never let me 
down...

I you can afford the best. Get the best. You will never regret your 
decision.

I don't know your financial situation, but if you can comfortably 
spend the few hundred extra $ to get a Zilla, you will never regret it.

Just my 2 cents...

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2009, at 3:19 PM, "Bob Sisson" <[email protected]>  


> wrote:
> 
> > I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my
> > Project. A
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Bob,

You might also check on the Russco controller. Russ is on this list
<[email protected]>
and mentioned he is building controllers again. He had a line of them quite 
a few years ago.
One of our local EV converters had one in a vehicle and liked it. I bought 
one but never got around to using it.

Gail

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Sisson" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...


>I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project. 
>A
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack 
> to
> use with my Warp-8 motor.
> The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller 
> that
> uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> reliability and the list gets smaller.
>
> For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975
>

>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

> I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project.
> A
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack
> to
> use with my Warp-8 motor.
> The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller
> that
> uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> reliability and the list gets smaller.

> For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975

Or, how about this one?

...For 2010, RUSSCO is pleased to introduce the model SMC600/72-156
EV modular controller for DC series motors of on-road vehicles weighing
up to 4500 pounds. The controller provides a user adjustable motor current
up to 600 amps using battery packs of 72-156 volts nominal. The
controller uses a pair of industrial rated IGBT...modules.... The...
controller is fully self contained.... The RUSSCO Model SMC600/72-156
controller measures 7-1/4=94 W x 7-3/8=94 H x 13-1/4" L and weighs 16 pound=
s.

Picture here:

http://www.russcoev.com/controller.jpg

Russ Kaufmann

Russco Engineering

http://russcoev.com

The Other Adjustable PFC Charger With Built In GFCI


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

In this order - 1) Zilla, 2) Zilla, 3) Zilla.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/ 
San Antonio, TX





> Bob Sisson wrote:
> > I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project. A
> > 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack to
> > use with my Warp-8 motor.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Bob,

There is only one of the controllers listed that I know "may" be overkill for what you are planning.
But consider this, many of the ones on the list and some that aren't I have seen stories of blown up controllers, some inducing some
spectacular (and embarrassing) smoke shows. Not to mention the cost of recovering from such an accident. Even if the manufacturer
sends you a new controller free of charge, you still have costs associated with down time and repairs. Not to mention the black eye
it gives to EV's in general when a story goes out mentioning that EV's are not yet reliable enough for main stream consumption.

There is a saying that I have coined in my current job about companies that "don't have enough money to do it right, but have enough
money to do it twice". If you don't look at specs, and features and only look at costs then at least also look at track records and
decide for yourself what part of the car you want to have to worry about replacing when it fails. 

Of all the stories of flame failures there is one that I have not heard one about. These controllers are employed in daily drivers,
but more importantly they are employed in high powered racing. I have one in service in each application. Of all the problems,
which are not really that many, I have NEVER had one attributed to the Zilla controller. In fact I have had many nuisance cut outs
from the controller but have ALWAYS been traced back to another failure or mis-wiring on my part. I actually thought I had a
Hairball go bad once, sent it back to Otmar. A week later I get it back saying that the hairball is fine. I put it back in service
and promptly found my real problem.

Yes many problems are blamed on controllers. But many of the controllers I've seen make that readily apparent by first letting the
smoke out, and only then forcing you to find out what went wrong. The Hairball controls for the Zilla have prevented me many times
blowing things up. Don't think of wiring a Hairball as an inconvenience. Think of it as a $300 insurance policy that nobody has
made a claim on yet. 

And another note. Water pumps are not that hard to install and 30 times more effective at removing heat than air. Check out why
building HVAC systems use water in their cooling towers instead of just free air cooling ;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----


> > Bob Sisson wrote:
> > ...
> > The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> > driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Bob,
I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV that
is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances that
have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big advantage
for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the Z1K-LV
at.

It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also, product
support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly from
the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great. The
HEPA pedal is especially nice!
If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
>[email protected]<
Good luck,
Richard Rau

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:19 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project. A



1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack to
use with my Warp-8 motor.
The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller that
uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
reliability and the list gets smaller.

For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Looks like Xmas is still here.... someone is going to get a gonga of a deal!

Rush
Tucson AZ

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Rau" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...


> Bob,
> I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV 
> that
> is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances 
> that
> have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
> and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big 
> advantage
> for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the 
> Z1K-LV
> at.
>
> It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also, 
> product
> support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly 
> from
> the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great. 
> The
> HEPA pedal is especially nice!
> If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
>>[email protected]<
> Good luck,
> Richard Rau
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of Bob Sisson
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:19 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
>
> I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project. 
> A
>
>
>
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack 
> to
> use with my Warp-8 motor.
> The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller 
> that
> uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> reliability and the list gets smaller.
>
> For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I haven't adjusted my Curtis/Logisystem up grade since buying it. It was a Curtis 120v 1221B model modified to go 144vdc. The first one blew up. Probably because of my bad wiring. Jim at Logisystems replaced it. It has been flawless for years. Logisystems stands behind it's product. The one they do now seems to be dependable. It also has headroom in amps so you can cut it back and make it more dependable but still have 500 amps which is plenty for a light conversion. Mine is 144vdc 700 amps at 2650 in weight. Pretty zippy. I can easily dust a RaV4 EV. That's not saying much as they are pretty slow but I can also say it is faster than stock. Just based on dependability I'd chose Logisystem. As a customer I urged Jim to build his own controller as at the time there were few alternatives to Curtis. They also did put fan mounts on the controller which is a help in cooling.

One thing about the Altrax is you could use two Altrax 72v controllers & two A89 or L91 motors and have a pretty cheap and fast setup in a light conversion using one half the 144v pack for each motor and controller. Lawrence Rhodes.....

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I'm glad that you recognized this Rush. I put this Zilla offer out last
night to Bob Sisson, but because this deal is intended to bring in needed
funds before the end of the year I can't wait long. I'm thinking $2075 for
all. If I don't hear from Bob fairly soon I will be open to others who may
be interested. Thanks, Richard Rau email -
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

Looks like Xmas is still here.... someone is going to get a gonga of a deal!

Rush
Tucson AZ

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Rau" <[email protected]>

> Bob,
> I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV 
> that
> is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances 
> that
> have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
> and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big 
> advantage
> for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the 
> Z1K-LV
> at.
>
> It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also, 
> product
> support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly 
> from
> the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great. 
> The
> HEPA pedal is especially nice!
> If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
>>[email protected]<
> Good luck,
> Richard Rau

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Jim, Logisystems, told me he can make a controller that does two motors.
I just haven't had the chance to use that setup yet.
I also think Jim makes a great product, because I have used many of his
controllers without any problems.

Mike Golub
Fairbanks, AK


On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]


> > wrote:
> 
> > I haven't adjusted my Curtis/Logisystem up grade since buying it. It was a
> > Curtis 120v 1221B model modified to go 144vdc. The first one blew up.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I think the $2K would be too steep for my project... Sorry

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Richard Rau
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:09 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

I'm glad that you recognized this Rush. I put this Zilla offer out last
night to Bob Sisson, but because this deal is intended to bring in needed
funds before the end of the year I can't wait long. I'm thinking $2075 for
all. If I don't hear from Bob fairly soon I will be open to others who may
be interested. Thanks, Richard Rau email -
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Rush
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

Looks like Xmas is still here.... someone is going to get a gonga of a deal!

Rush
Tucson AZ

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Rau" <[email protected]>

> Bob,
> I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV 
> that
> is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances 
> that
> have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
> and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big 
> advantage
> for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the 
> Z1K-LV
> at.
>
> It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also, 
> product
> support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly 
> from
> the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great. 
> The
> HEPA pedal is especially nice!
> If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
>>[email protected]<
> Good luck,
> Richard Rau

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I haven't had the pleasure of replacing a burnt controller. But I have had to replace burnt motor parts. That was painful enough,
but I couldn't have possibly spent more on the motor so I feel I did all I could. Had I taken a financial shortcut and still broke
the motor I wouldn't let myself live it down :-(

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sisson
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 7:49 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I think the $2K would be too steep for my project... Sorry
> 
> Bob Sisson
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
> Gaithersburg MD
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Richard Rau
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I'm glad that you recognized this Rush. I put this Zilla offer out last
> night to Bob Sisson, but because this deal is intended to bring in needed
> funds before the end of the year I can't wait long. I'm thinking $2075 for
> all. If I don't hear from Bob fairly soon I will be open to others who may
> be interested. Thanks, Richard Rau email -
> [email protected]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Rush
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> Looks like Xmas is still here.... someone is going to get a gonga of a deal!
> 
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Rau" <[email protected]>
> 
> > Bob,
> > I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV
> > that
> > is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances
> > that
> > have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
> > and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big
> > advantage
> > for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the
> > Z1K-LV
> > at.
> >
> > It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also,
> > product
> > support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly
> > from
> > the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great.
> > The
> > HEPA pedal is especially nice!
> > If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
> >>[email protected]<
> > Good luck,
> > Richard Rau
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

If that is the case, I would go with the Logisystems. You get the most power for the least money and they have a good reputation for standing behind their product even though some have had failures. I would buy more controller than you think you need, so that you are not pushing it to it's limits, and wire in a precharge resistor whether they claim it is necessary or not. I've been very happy with my 120v 1000amp Logisystems controller in my 2600 lb conversion. I run it at 108 volts. 



Even at that, the next time a I do conversion it will be with a Zilla. They are clearly worth the money if you are willing to spend it. Only experience building and driving EV's can teach you what things you find most critical. For instance, I will also spend extra money on a good meter to keep track of my batteries (I have an Evision) while others are content with two $50 meters, one to measure volts and the other to measure amps. On the other hand I am totally cool with cheap chargers. I have two Shaumacher 1072SE's which I connect in series to do most of my charging and a 20 amp variac based charger. Between these three chargers I can charge anything up to 144 volts at 20 - 30 amps using two separate circuits in my garage, and I have a total of about $500 invested. I have been using them for years, and though they have battery destroying potential, that has not really been a problem for me because I also know how to use inexpensive timers or current limiting device!
s to keep my batteries safe.





damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:49:04 -0500
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I think the $2K would be too steep for my project... Sorry
> 
> Bob Sisson
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
> Gaithersburg MD
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Richard Rau
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I'm glad that you recognized this Rush. I put this Zilla offer out last
> night to Bob Sisson, but because this deal is intended to bring in needed
> funds before the end of the year I can't wait long. I'm thinking $2075 for
> all. If I don't hear from Bob fairly soon I will be open to others who may
> be interested. Thanks, Richard Rau email -
> [email protected]
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Rush
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 10:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> Looks like Xmas is still here.... someone is going to get a gonga of a deal!
> 
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Rau" <[email protected]>
> 
> > Bob,
> > I have a new controller that may be good for you. It's a Zilla Z1K- HV 
> > that
> > is still in the box and I am unable to use it because of circumstances 
> > that
> > have made it difficult for me to continue my conversion. It is HV model,
> > and if I can sell it before the end of the year it would be a big 
> > advantage
> > for me and so I'd be willing to sell for close to what you listed the 
> > Z1K-LV
> > at.
> >
> > It would come with the 'P' model Hairball AND the HEPA pedal. Also, 
> > product
> > support would be there even though this would not be purchased directly 
> > from
> > the manufacturer. I put one of these in a Porsche and it worked great. 
> > The
> > HEPA pedal is especially nice!
> > If you want to know more please contact me off-list at
> >>[email protected]<
> > Good luck,
> > Richard Rau
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 05:21:46PM +0000, damon henry wrote:
> 
> If that is the case, I would go with the Logisystems. You get the most power for the least money and they have a good reputation for standing behind their product even though some have had failures. I would buy more controller than you think you need, so that you are not pushing it to it's limits, and wire in a precharge resistor whether they claim it is necessary or not. I've been very happy with my 120v 1000amp Logisystems controller in my 2600 lb conversion. I run it at 108 volts. 

Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with a closed 
throttle?

That configuration, I believe, has been recommended by Curtis. I think 
it is supposed to be a safety feature. I now believe my Logisystem 
failures are associated with frequent contactor switching as suggested 
by Thor Johnson. I believe my contactors have been switching 10-100 
times more than is necessary. That theory is supported by the fact 
that I have been experiencing very jerky starts.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 744 days 7 hours 22 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Yes, mine is wired that way, but with a precharge resistor across the contactor which makes a big difference. Since the caps stay fully charged through the precharge resistor there is not a huge in rush current.



damon

> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:35:15 -0600
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 05:21:46PM +0000, damon henry wrote:
> > 
> > If that is the case, I would go with the Logisystems. You get the most power for the least money and they have a good reputation for standing behind their product even though some have had failures. I would buy more controller than you think you need, so that you are not pushing it to it's limits, and wire in a precharge resistor whether they claim it is necessary or not. I've been very happy with my 120v 1000amp Logisystems controller in my 2600 lb conversion. I run it at 108 volts. 
> 
> Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with a closed 
> throttle?
> 
> That configuration, I believe, has been recommended by Curtis. I think 
> it is supposed to be a safety feature. I now believe my Logisystem 
> failures are associated with frequent contactor switching as suggested 
> by Thor Johnson. I believe my contactors have been switching 10-100 
> times more than is necessary. That theory is supported by the fact 
> that I have been experiencing very jerky starts.
> 
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 744 days 7 hours 22 minutes
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with a closed
> > throttle?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

What an annoyance to have your car clicking and clacking all the time 
when you're inching around the parking lot, or down the street. Even my 
forklift doesn't do that. I'm kinda getting used to that SCR chopper 
circuit sound though. Little slow ticks when you're inching along, and 
a little more of a groan when you step into the pedal. But no clicking 
and clacking of contactors ;-)

Mike




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> >> Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with a closed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with
> > a closed throttle?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > What an annoyance to have your car clicking and clacking all
> > the time when you're inching around the parking lot, or down
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

That was the main reason I did not used to wire mine up like this... then my teenage son got his license and I decided the more safety features the better  To be honest, it does not bother me a bit, and that is with an Allbright bolted directly to the firewall which is fairly audible inside the truck.



damon

> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:59:01 -0900
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> What an annoyance to have your car clicking and clacking all the time 
> when you're inching around the parking lot, or down the street. Even my 
> forklift doesn't do that. I'm kinda getting used to that SCR chopper 
> circuit sound though. Little slow ticks when you're inching along, and 
> a little more of a groan when you step into the pedal. But no clicking 
> and clacking of contactors ;-)
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > > Willie McKemie wrote:
> > >> Damon, do you have your contactor wired so it turns off with a closed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > We know you're a Zilla advocate (and soon to be on the payroll -
> > congratulations! ;^),
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

> No doubt the Albrights make a distinctive Click and Clack. I will say
> though that the KiloVac LEV-200 that I use in my Mitsubishi would be
> more tolerable if it were to cycle with the throttle. But to me the
> whole proccess seems uneccessary. It would be like me turning off my
> diesel each time I get to a stop sign and then turn it right back on.
> What additional hazzards are there to leaving the main contactor on when
> you are sitting stopped at a light knowing you will take off again in a
> few seconds?

I also use a pair of KiloVac LEV-200. I have one turn on when they key
is in the run position. The other turns on with the throttle leaving
zero, and turns off when the brake is applied. I have a precharge
resistor across it. I cant hear it click, and I like it that way. So
coasting doesnt open the contactor, just pressing the brake (or
turning the key off). I thought I'd open it just in case of some
emergency. The Albright I had before was very audible.


-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> On 28 Dec 2009 at 10:46, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > What additional hazards are there to leaving the main contactor on
> > when you are sitting stopped at a light knowing you will take off again
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Mike-

Add one more to the list: Having the hairball disable the Zilla from
allowing you to race down the track after driving from Alaska to Portland.
Or maybe I misunderstood what was at fault after what I thought was 2 Zillas
being tried to get the orange beastie to go down the drag strip this past
summer.

-Myles Twete, Portland

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:12 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

You might not have the money to do it right, but you will find the money to
do it twice ( or three times I've heard in some cases)
when your controller fails. Buy the Zilla! There are Zilla's on the shelf
now. Of all the controllers in the list you name I have
not heard a single flame story from a Zilla owner. I own two and let me
tell you something, a Hairball and a water pump may seem
complicated, but they are really just another box. And the safety
interlocks are worth their weight in gold because as you become
more familiar with your car, the more careless you get. Having the Hairball
lock the main contactor open while charging is a good
thing. Having the Hairball shut down on excessive motor RPM is a good thing
which will save you "from doing it twice". Having the
Hairball not let the controller take your pack below a certain voltage,
ever, is a good thing. Having the Hairball not allow more
than a certain current to be drawn from the batteries, or more than a
certain current to be delivered to the motor, is a good thing.
Having the Hairball automatically pre-charge your main contactor is a good
thing. Having the Hairball go to Valet mode when you let
your kid drive is a good thing. Having the Hairball shift a Forward/Reverse
contactor is a good thing if you are considering direct
drive. All of these things and more are still possible with any of the
other controllers, except you will be adding a lot of
external components and getting into designing their operation, because they
are not already built in. For the Zilla, all you have
to add is a Hairball and a water pump. And besides, water pumps are easy
;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bob Sisson
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:19 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project.
A
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack
to
> use with my Warp-8 motor.
> The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller
that
> uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> reliability and the list gets smaller.
> 
> For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975
> 
> I chose these voltages as they will allow for a "Fresh off the charger
144V
> pack." Kelly has a higher amperage unit, but not at 156V, all of the
other
> units are 156V so I went with that.
> 
> The Zilla is the indestructible "platinum" controller, but also requires
the
> most additional stuff to make it work (water cooling, Hairball, etc.)
> 
> The Kelly is the NOT the cheapest, but has the lowest constant usable
> current and is known to have overheating current cutback problems; don't
> know about adding the FANS they now show.
> 
> Logisystems has the lowest price but is also the 'least smart' as it has
no
> computer interface and SEEMS like an overgrown Curtis.
> 
> The Curtis, although a standard for a long time, is not smart and is low
on
> the current and voltage scale.
> Alltrax didn't seem to have anything above 72V which would mean much
higher
> currents and subsequent losses.
> 
> I am tempted to toss out the Kelly simply because of the reputation of not
> being able to deliver the current over time, and the Logisystems as
> "screwdriver ports" for adjusting acceleration ramps is not in the same
> league as the others.
> 
> That leaves the Synkromotive in the middle as a smart, programmable and
> seemingly robust controller. I am not fond of the INTERNAL FANS, but I
> don't plan to mount it where it will be directly exposed to spray, but it
is
> a concern.
> There are LOTS of controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a
> "robust" controller that uses higher voltages and currents, the field
> narrows FAST. Add high reliability and the list gets smaller.
> 
> The Zilla is the hands down best controller period. but it has a waiting
> list, requires Water cooling, and has far more interlocks, sensors, and
> STUFF to make it work. The Syncromotive controller SEEMS like a simpler
and
> only slightly less expensive choice that will do more than what I need.
The
> Syncromotive controller is NEW, but went through some good testing and
BETA
> work.
> 
> I also like that the Synkromotive goes down to 48V so I can inexpensively
> get it running in the Shop/Parking lot with some 2nd hand Lead cells THEN
> order the 144V (ouch) LifePo4 packs/modules/cells.
> 
> QUESTION. Is the Sycromotive the best choice for my lightweight
conversion?
> Have I missed any choices?
> 
> I ponder this question as except for the Motor, the Controller is the
single
> largest expense. Everything else can be bought a little at a time. even
> the Batteries can be bought a cell/module at a time. but the controller is
a
> BIG OUCH all at once, and I really can't afford to blow one up, or have to
> buy another because of lousy performance in a year.
> 
> 
> Bob Sisson
> 1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
> Gaithersburg MD
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Bob Sisson wrote:
> >
> > The Zilla is the hands down best controller period. but it has a waiting
> > list, (snip)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Mike wrote -
> No doubt the Albrights make a distinctive Click and Clack. I will say
> though that the KiloVac LEV-200 that I use in my Mitsubishi would be
> more tolerable if it were to cycle with the throttle. But to me the
> whole proccess seems uneccessary. It would be like me turning off my
> diesel each time I get to a stop sign and then turn it right back on.
> What additional hazzards are there to leaving the main contactor on when
> you are sitting stopped at a light knowing you will take off again in a
> few seconds?

My Insight has what is called Autostop, Prisus's also have it. When I come 
to a stop, and certain perameters are met, engine warm, gear shift in 
neutral, clutch out, AC in Econ mode, etc. the Engine stops thereby 
conserving gas and polutting less. When I shift into gear, the engine is 
immeadiately restarted by the traction motor. It is seamless and there is no 
lag at all. I notice no difference if the engine is on or off.

But the autostop only functions when the parameters are met. In the summer 
it functions probably 50 to 75% of the time, in the winter only about 10% 
max.

It really is pretty cool to be sitting at a light with the engine off, and 
next to me is a diesel truck that is turning over at 500-700 rpm LOUD.

I wish all vehicles had autostop....

Rush
Tucson AZ

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

There is also the WarP-Drive 160V for $1950.
>
>
I'm glad this was mentioned. It might seem a little biased since I've had a
hand in the WarP-Drive, but it really is a great controller, with features
that you should look in to when making your decision
(http://ngcontrols.comfor more info). From my position at EV Source,
I can sit back and take an
objective look at all the controllers I sell. EV Source has had the goal of
only selling top-notch equipment. The Zilla certainly fits that description
- it is a wonderful controller. I've driven on one for about 4 years. No
problems, no complaints. I have about a fifth of the miles I've put on the
Zilla on the WarP-Drive, but have been at least equally as pleased. I can
say both have their strengths, and both will have their place in the EV
market.

For those looking at making a decision on the controller to use, Rich
Carroll at Pioneer Conversions has put together a great controller
comparison document:

http://pioneerconversions.com/pdf/ControllerComparison.pdf

I would suggest that anyone looking to buy a controller study this chart.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Hi Myles,

'twas not fault of the Zilla. I had another short on the field windings that I did not completely fix from the motor burnout
earlier in the year (I know John you told me ;-).

Prime example of the Hairball keeping me from causing flames, which would have likely happened with a less expensive controller.

Why not a Zilla in your old car? Would make it run faster, although your's must have by far the better survivability record ;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 6:08 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> Mike-
> 
> Add one more to the list: Having the hairball disable the Zilla from
> allowing you to race down the track after driving from Alaska to Portland.
> Or maybe I misunderstood what was at fault after what I thought was 2 Zillas
> being tried to get the orange beastie to go down the drag strip this past
> summer.
> 
> -Myles Twete, Portland
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:12 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> 
> You might not have the money to do it right, but you will find the money to
> do it twice ( or three times I've heard in some cases)
> when your controller fails. Buy the Zilla! There are Zilla's on the shelf
> now. Of all the controllers in the list you name I have
> not heard a single flame story from a Zilla owner. I own two and let me
> tell you something, a Hairball and a water pump may seem
> complicated, but they are really just another box. And the safety
> interlocks are worth their weight in gold because as you become
> more familiar with your car, the more careless you get. Having the Hairball
> lock the main contactor open while charging is a good
> thing. Having the Hairball shut down on excessive motor RPM is a good thing
> which will save you "from doing it twice". Having the
> Hairball not let the controller take your pack below a certain voltage,
> ever, is a good thing. Having the Hairball not allow more
> than a certain current to be drawn from the batteries, or more than a
> certain current to be delivered to the motor, is a good thing.
> Having the Hairball automatically pre-charge your main contactor is a good
> thing. Having the Hairball go to Valet mode when you let
> your kid drive is a good thing. Having the Hairball shift a Forward/Reverse
> contactor is a good thing if you are considering direct
> drive. All of these things and more are still possible with any of the
> other controllers, except you will be adding a lot of
> external components and getting into designing their operation, because they
> are not already built in. For the Zilla, all you have
> to add is a Hairball and a water pump. And besides, water pumps are easy
> ;-)
> 
> Mike
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Bob Sisson
> > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:19 AM
> > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> > Subject: [EVDL] Controller Choices...
> >
> > I am about to the point where I need to order a controller for my Project.
> A
> > 1993 Geo Metro Convertible. My Target is a 120-144V 100Ahr LiFePo4 pack
> to
> > use with my Warp-8 motor.
> > The following controllers SEEM like overkill, but will survive "spirited"
> > driving and will not overheat under cruising loads. There are LOTS of
> > controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a "robust" controller
> that
> > uses higher voltages and currents, the field narrows FAST. Add high
> > reliability and the list gets smaller.
> >
> > For Controllers, I have "Narrowed" the list to:
> > LogiSystems 71-198V 750A $1050
> > Kelly KDHB 24-156V 600A $1358
> > Curtis 1231C 96-144V 500A $1589
> > Synkromotive DC-7001 48-156V 700A $1612
> > Zilla Z1K-LV 72-156V 1000A $1975
> >
> > I chose these voltages as they will allow for a "Fresh off the charger
> 144V
> > pack." Kelly has a higher amperage unit, but not at 156V, all of the
> other
> > units are 156V so I went with that.
> >
> > The Zilla is the indestructible "platinum" controller, but also requires
> the
> > most additional stuff to make it work (water cooling, Hairball, etc.)
> >
> > The Kelly is the NOT the cheapest, but has the lowest constant usable
> > current and is known to have overheating current cutback problems; don't
> > know about adding the FANS they now show.
> >
> > Logisystems has the lowest price but is also the 'least smart' as it has
> no
> > computer interface and SEEMS like an overgrown Curtis.
> >
> > The Curtis, although a standard for a long time, is not smart and is low
> on
> > the current and voltage scale.
> > Alltrax didn't seem to have anything above 72V which would mean much
> higher
> > currents and subsequent losses.
> >
> > I am tempted to toss out the Kelly simply because of the reputation of not
> > being able to deliver the current over time, and the Logisystems as
> > "screwdriver ports" for adjusting acceleration ramps is not in the same
> > league as the others.
> >
> > That leaves the Synkromotive in the middle as a smart, programmable and
> > seemingly robust controller. I am not fond of the INTERNAL FANS, but I
> > don't plan to mount it where it will be directly exposed to spray, but it
> is
> > a concern.
> > There are LOTS of controllers at < 120V or <500A, but once you want a
> > "robust" controller that uses higher voltages and currents, the field
> > narrows FAST. Add high reliability and the list gets smaller.
> >
> > The Zilla is the hands down best controller period. but it has a waiting
> > list, requires Water cooling, and has far more interlocks, sensors, and
> > STUFF to make it work. The Syncromotive controller SEEMS like a simpler
> and
> > only slightly less expensive choice that will do more than what I need.
> The
> > Syncromotive controller is NEW, but went through some good testing and
> BETA
> > work.
> >
> > I also like that the Synkromotive goes down to 48V so I can inexpensively
> > get it running in the Shop/Parking lot with some 2nd hand Lead cells THEN
> > order the 144V (ouch) LifePo4 packs/modules/cells.
> >
> > QUESTION. Is the Sycromotive the best choice for my lightweight
> conversion?
> > Have I missed any choices?
> >
> > I ponder this question as except for the Motor, the Controller is the
> single
> > largest expense. Everything else can be bought a little at a time. even
> > the Batteries can be bought a cell/module at a time. but the controller is
> a
> > BIG OUCH all at once, and I really can't afford to blow one up, or have to
> > buy another because of lousy performance in a year.
> >
> >
> > Bob Sisson
> > 1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
> > Gaithersburg MD
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20091227/a34d86e0/attac
> hment.html
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

For the Raptor, call Peter Senkowski at 707-350-0156. He has them
upgraded to 1200 amps. Also [email protected] .



> Bob Sisson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I could not find a Page for the DCP Raptor...a few repair sites, and a few
> > old forum articles, but nothing new...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > What an annoyance to have your car clicking and clacking all the time
> > when you're inching around the parking lot, or down the street.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > What additional hazards are there to leaving the main contactor on when
> > you are sitting stopped at a light knowing you will take off again in a
> > few seconds?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...




> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> What additional hazards are there to leaving the main contactor on when
> >> you are sitting stopped at a light knowing you will take off again in a
> >> few seconds?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I must agree here with Mike - my contactors have always been under the 
ignition key only. The failsafe is a large manual breaker under the dash, or 
tripped by means of a cable and located in the engine bay. I would not want 
the main contactor to activate with the throttle - in stop and go 
conditions, it would be not only annoying, but too much wear and tear on the 
contactor.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...




> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> What an annoyance to have your car clicking and clacking all the time
> >> when you're inching around the parking lot, or down the street.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > Oh they SURE do! In an E-60 E-Locomotive, by Generous Electric
> > down to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Roger, Bob was speaking about the locomotives using power from overhead
wires, that is why,"You drop the pantograph to stop it!" The pantograph is
that framework of crossed sticks that holds up the Shoes against the wires
to pick up power.

Regards, and "Happy NEW YEAR.
Dennis Miles, (Director) Electric Vehicle Technical Institute Inc.
Tampa Bay Region, Florida, USA Phone (863) 289 - 0690
electricvehicletechnicalinstitute.com
"We believe that there are two INFRASTRUCTURES needed for the new EVs:
Both a Public Recharging availability almost EVERYWHERE,
And Service Centers for Routine Maintenance and Emergency Repairs
(Would your Neighbor replace a Fuse?)."
===============================================================
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
<[email protected]>wrote:

>
>


> Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> > > Oh they SURE do! In an E-60 E-Locomotive, by Generous Electric
> > > down to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

OK. That makes sense now. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to railroad 
stuff.



> Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > Roger, Bob was speaking about the locomotives using power from
> > overhead
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 28 Dec 2009 at 10:46, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> What additional hazards are there to leaving the main contactor on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Can I program the Zilla to idle the motor or do I need to adjust the HEPA to
result in the motor idling? What does the signal from the HEPA look like?

Details
I'm converting a vehicle with an automatic transmission. Originally, a
logisystem controller was installed, but there's been a report problem with
these controllers and I'm switching to a Zilla. Because it's an automatic
transmission and I was using a potbox, I made a circuit to adjust the
resistance so the motor would idle at a speed that would build enough
pressure in the transmission and prevent a lag between pushing the pedal and
actually moving.

Any extra details on the HEPA and whether the Zilla is programmable on the
lower end... I know you can set motor and battery voltage and current limits
and it feels like it would be possible that the zilla's programmable on the
lower end too, but I'm not for certain after reading the documentation.

Thanks in advance for any and all help! I've enjoyed this thread.

Steve



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I haven't had the pleasure of replacing a burnt controller. But I have had
> > to replace burnt motor parts. That was painful enough,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Hi Steve-
I have done an Automatic Honda Civic EV, and I am using a Zilla
1K-LV. No, you cannot program it to idle the motor. I am using a PB5
throttle, resistive setup, and I have a small circuit that allows me to idle
the motor for my transmission. It has been working great for the past 150
miles of EVing. I had 1,000 miles on my EV before I idled the motor, which
was a pain for starting from a stop because the pressure would have to build
up again while the EV rolled backwards, then engaged and jump around.

David Harrington

Electric Civic Conversion
http://civicity.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Electric Vehicle
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 5:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

Can I program the Zilla to idle the motor or do I need to adjust the HEPA to
result in the motor idling? What does the signal from the HEPA look like?

Details
I'm converting a vehicle with an automatic transmission. Originally, a
logisystem controller was installed, but there's been a report problem with
these controllers and I'm switching to a Zilla. Because it's an automatic
transmission and I was using a potbox, I made a circuit to adjust the
resistance so the motor would idle at a speed that would build enough
pressure in the transmission and prevent a lag between pushing the pedal and
actually moving.

Any extra details on the HEPA and whether the Zilla is programmable on the
lower end... I know you can set motor and battery voltage and current limits
and it feels like it would be possible that the zilla's programmable on the
lower end too, but I'm not for certain after reading the documentation.

Thanks in advance for any and all help! I've enjoyed this thread.

Steve



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I haven't had the pleasure of replacing a burnt controller. But I have
> had
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Hello Steve,

Just use a idle stop solenoid on the accelerator linkage and/or peddle stop. 
It's the same type that is use on engines for maintaining the rpm when the 
air condition is turn on. You may have to install a lever cam so this 
solenoid has enough push to maintain the force to maintain the position of 
the accelerator.

The accelerator linkage control has to return to the zero start position so 
you can restart the EV again.

Get one that is adjustable where it can vary the rpm. I use a three 
position selector switch on the dash which I can select Auto. Idle - Off - 
Idle ON.

In the Auto Idle position, the Ignition On position activates this idle stop 
only if the auto gear selector is in the neutral position using a neutral 
positional switch.

In the Off position, there is no idle control.

In the Idle On, it by passes the ignition and neutral switch. Is normally 
use for testing and if any of these switches fail. I normally have back up 
switch circuits on my console anyway.

At first I use a latching solenoid which maintains the push out position or 
draw in position with out any power to hold these positions. I use a 
electric door lock solenoid which has plenty of power to hold these 
positions.

The problem with this, is that if I forgot to activated this type of 
solenoid to de-idle the accelerator linkage after I stop and later I tried 
to start the EV, the Zilla will not allow the controller to start up because 
the circuit was not at or below a certain value.

This made a good anti-theft control where it even took me awhile to figure 
out what happen.

I am using the standard Curtis Pot Box. To idle my motor, all I do is 
switch in series another 5K pot which is set for about 500 rpm.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Electric Vehicle" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...


> Can I program the Zilla to idle the motor or do I need to adjust the HEPA 
> to
> result in the motor idling? What does the signal from the HEPA look like?
>
> Details
> I'm converting a vehicle with an automatic transmission. Originally, a
> logisystem controller was installed, but there's been a report problem 
> with
> these controllers and I'm switching to a Zilla. Because it's an automatic
> transmission and I was using a potbox, I made a circuit to adjust the
> resistance so the motor would idle at a speed that would build enough
> pressure in the transmission and prevent a lag between pushing the pedal 
> and
> actually moving.
>
> Any extra details on the HEPA and whether the Zilla is programmable on the
> lower end... I know you can set motor and battery voltage and current 
> limits
> and it feels like it would be possible that the zilla's programmable on 
> the
> lower end too, but I'm not for certain after reading the documentation.
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all help! I've enjoyed this thread.
>
> Steve
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Mike Willmon <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> > > I haven't had the pleasure of replacing a burnt controller. But I have
> > > had
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Dave,
Do you notice the motor not pulling as many amps when accelerating
from a stop because your TC let's it spin up before locking?
Just looking for benefits from the auto w/TC.
Thanks,
John

On Thursday, February 4, 2010, David Harrington


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Steve-
> > I have done an Automatic Honda Civic EV, and I am using a=
> Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

I do notice a difference in AMP draw when the TC is locked and unlocked. My
TC doesn't lockup until I hit 34 MPH in 3rd gear, but there is a good 10 AMP
draw difference in 3rd gear at 30 MPH when the TC in disengaged vs engaged,
with the disengaged having the 10 less AMPs @ 96 volts. After the TC
engages, it does not disengage until it hits 20 MPH. The one thing is, that
at that much higher RPM, the torque is considerably less with the TC not
locked up. This is all when accelerating. =


When I am cruising at my usual 35 MPH, I actually have less battery AMP draw
in 3rd gear with TC lockup than I do in 2nd gear without TC lockup. I don't
have a flat commute, but instead have loads of hills and I need loads of
motor torque to deal with some, so the lower RPM that 3rd gear with TC
lockup offers provides me with gob loads more torque.

One thing with automatics is it's real easy to draw lots of AMPs when
accelerating. Every time the transmission changes gears, the AMPs spike, so
I have to be careful about flooring it, or I hit my LVB on the Zilla pretty
fast. It's definitely I very different driving style, having to lay off
somewhat on the pedal when the transmission shifts, but still so much fun to
drive!

David Harrington

Electric Civic Conversion
http://civicity.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of John Mogelnicki
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...

Dave,
Do you notice the motor not pulling as many amps when accelerating
from a stop because your TC let's it spin up before locking?
Just looking for benefits from the auto w/TC.
Thanks,
John

On Thursday, February 4, 2010, David Harrington


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Steve-
> > I have done an Automatic Honda Civic EV, and I am using a=
> Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*



> Electric Vehicle wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > I'm converting a vehicle with an automatic transmission. Originally, a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

>
> Dave,
> Do you notice the motor not pulling as many amps when accelerating
> from a stop because your TC let's it spin up before locking?
> Just looking for benefits from the auto w/TC.
> Thanks,
> John

Remember a torque converter works like a transmission a bit. It starts
at one ration and transitions to close to 1:1 and then you can lock into
1:1

This ratio is around 4:1 or 3:1

I often thought that an adequate EV drive system in a heavier vehicle
might just be a torque converter and a warp 9, but I never had the $ or
time to play with the concept.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

The standard ratio of a torque converter is about 1.8:1. In road building 
industrial vehicles, they use stacks of torque converters that they can lock 
each one as needed. A four unit ratio would be 1.8 x 4 = 7.2:1. Now couple 
that to a rear axle ratio of 5 or 6 to one, you are talking about a overall 
ratio of over 35:1.

A standard torque converter is very heavy with the oil in it. I try to pick 
one of these up that still had the oil in, and I thought it was fasten to 
the floor.

Using just one 1.8:1 torque converter in my TH-400 which was converted to a 
manual shift, I have a overall ratio of 1.8 x 2.75 x 5.57 = 27.5:1 at 375 
rpm. As the rpm increase then the overall ratio will decrease to 1.0 x 2.75 
x 5.57 = 15.3:1 overall ratio which is 34 mph at 6000 rpm.

I normally had to idle the motor anyway, as to keep the vacuum brake booster 
up to pressure if I had to stop on a hill. I am now doing a second mod, 
where I will replace the vacuum booster with a hydro brake booster which is 
ran by a CANEV hydraulic electric power steering pump.

Replace the torque converter with a tci.com transmission pump drive that 
connects directly to the motor coupling and install a external transmission 
electric oil pump to pre-pressure the transmission.

These units require a lot of 12 volt power, so I have to use a 12 volt deep 
cycle battery that is charge by either a deep cycle alternator when I am 
coasting down a hill and/or by a DC-DC converter when I am not coasting.

I will find out if this mod will work out later in about 4 months.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...


> >
> > Dave,
> > Do you notice the motor not pulling as many amps when accelerating
> > from a stop because your TC let's it spin up before locking?
> > Just looking for benefits from the auto w/TC.
> > Thanks,
> > John
>
> Remember a torque converter works like a transmission a bit. It starts
> at one ration and transitions to close to 1:1 and then you can lock into
> 1:1
>
> This ratio is around 4:1 or 3:1
>
> I often thought that an adequate EV drive system in a heavier vehicle
> might just be a torque converter and a warp 9, but I never had the $ or
> time to play with the concept.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Unsubscribe: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archive / Forum: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Roland,
Are you tapping into the TCI pump to supply pressure from the 12v hydro pump
when motor is stopped?
I'm curious how are you planning to plumb the 12v pump?

John



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The standard ratio of a torque converter is about 1.8:1. In road building
> > industrial vehicles, they use stacks of torque converters that they can
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Hello John,

I have tested the TH-400 transmission on a test stand using a 11 inch GE 
series motor with and without the pump. Without the pump its take about 375 
motor rpm to bring up the oil pressure to 50 psi which is about 0.9 mph in 
1st gear.

This TH-400 transmissions needs a vacuum modulator that needs a vacuum 
signal from a vacuum source which varies the transmission oil pressure 
depending on the load. So in my test I install a belt driven GMC vacuum 
pump that is design for a diesel engine.

At no motor rpm, the vacuum is at 0 in.hg. which release a valve in the 
modulator for maximum oil pressure of about 180 psi as the motor rpm is 
increase. When the motor rpm increase, the vacuum pump increases in rpm and 
thus the vacuum increase in in.hg. This higher vacuum signal to the 
modulator decreases the oil pressure to about 75 psi at a steady rpm.

In a diesel engine, there is no vacuum from the engine, so they use a belt 
driven vacuum pump and another control modulator that is control by the 
accelerator linkage. As the accelerator linkage is moving, it reduces the 
vacuum signal to the transmission which increases the transmission oil 
pressure during acceleration.

I am going to test out both methods of vacuum sources and see what happens.

The transmission oil pump which I got from jegs.com which is normally use 
for the low pressure side oil lines for increase flow to a oil cooling 
radiator. This pump is rated for 50 psi.

To install this oil pump, I drill a hole and rubber grommet in the side of 
the transmission bell housing. Run a stainless high pressure hose through 
this grommet and to a 90 degree fitting that is threaded into the front face 
of the transmission pump cover.

Go to a transmission shop, and they will show you where to drill and tap 
into the high pressure side of this cover. You will have to remove this 
cover very carefully as there are check balls in the passageways. Use a new 
gasket when you replace the cover.

This line that goes to the transmission pump face goes to a high pressure 
electric 12 volt valve that turns off after the initial pump pressure is 
raise. It prevents the higher oil pressure to back up through the pump to 
the low pressure side.

I got this 12 volt electric value from a semi-truck parts dealer. This 
value is normally use for the high pressure side of a A.C. unit that is 
rated for 300 psi.

A hose line goes from this electric value to the electric pump that is mark 
OUT. The electric value has a arrow on it, but you install it with the 
arrow facing the line that goes to the automatic transmission pump. The 
reason for this, this electric value acts as a check valve against the 
higher pressure.

A hose line is then connected to the electric oil pump that is mark IN and 
then to a inline filter that you can get from Auto World or jegs.com. The 
filter housing is use for either fuel with a fine filter or for oil with a 
medium filter.

>From the oil filter it goes to a cast aluminum transmission oil pan which 
has a boss for tapping pipe threads for the fitting that fits this hose. I 
use all No. 6 hose size and fittings. The tapped hole should just be above 
the oil pan filter.

I may find that I may not need this external oil pump, because ny initial 
starting out rpm may be enough to increase the oil pressure to 50 psi to 
start moving. I am running a very low speed overall gear in reverse and 1st 
gear in the 20 to 25:1 ratios.

Normally a automatic is use in a high speed ratio vehicle where the torque 
converter and external pumps may not be need if you are not running a torque 
converter.

If you are using the newer electronic automatic, then you will not need the 
vacuum signal, but you will have to re-program the computer for different 
shift and rpm controls.

With the TH-400, I will be able to keep it any gear just like a manual 
transmission. The manual has a 19.495:1 1st gear which has a top speed of 
25 per hour going up a 7 percent hill at 150 to 200 motor amps. At times I 
have to shift to 2nd gear which is 13.925:1 which may increase the about 300 
motor amps while accelerating from 25 to 30 mph.

The TH-400 1st gear ratio is 15.3175:1 will allow me to stay at the 1st gear 
ratio above 25 to 35 mph, which the motor ampere should be less than the 2nd 
gear ratio of 13.925:1. I should be able to drive to all my destinations 
staying in 1st gear for in town driving.

Roland







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...


> Roland,
> Are you tapping into the TCI pump to supply pressure from the 12v hydro 
> pump
> when motor is stopped?
> I'm curious how are you planning to plumb the 12v pump?
>
> John
>
>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > The standard ratio of a torque converter is about 1.8:1. In road
> > > building
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

Thanks David! This gives me to move forward with design the needed circuit.


On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:35 PM, David Harrington <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Steve-
> > I have done an Automatic Honda Civic EV, and I am using a Zilla
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controller Choices...*

David - you might be interested in this question/answer from PCS. I've been
reading your blog (which is great btw), and I saw that you burnt out a
torque converter. Your torque converter had a lot of miles on it, but maybe
you need to increase the pressure/RPMs? Read the answer below to one of my
questions below.

1) *Overview*
Our project is converting a 2009 automatic Chevrolet Venture to a pure
electric vehicle. This involves completely removing the combustion engine
and replacing it with an electric motor. The PCS=92s TCU will used to
communicate with the 4T65E transmission (we have the PCS TCU and 4T65E wire
harness in our possession) and control the shift points and torque converter
lock-up points as well as collect some data. Any general suggestions when
using the TCU to control an electric motor? Challenges? Problems? I have
reviewed the TCU manual, software, and the 4T65E Wire Harness schematic, but
this is my first time working with the TCU, and I=92m fairly inexperienced
working with transmissions.
The most frequent problem with electric vehicle users is wrecking the torque
converter (the transmission can be damaged but typically the torque
converter goes first). Need to identify the minimum RPM's
the transmission requires to build up the appropriate pressure. Some users
allow the motor to shut off during stop signs and stop lights. This can be
OK, but user needs to allow time to build pressure before attempting to put
the vehicle in gear. Another solution is having the motor idle a specified
RPM to maintain pressure in the transmission, which allows the user to
accelerate immediately after the stop light.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:35 PM, David Harrington <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Steve-
> > I have done an Automatic Honda Civic EV, and I am using a Zilla
> ...


----------

