# 150 mph electric motorcycle called the Mission One revealed



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

$68,995 price tag

lol... this bike can't even best a busa and is 6 times the price 

Why are all of these electric motor car companies so stupid on their pricing


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

its built as a racebike, not as a commuter...

They've based their business model on tesla's.... make less at higher price and profit the same for less overhead than you would with a lower price, higher quantity and more manufacturing overhead.....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> its built as a racebike, not as a commuter...
> 
> They've based their business model on tesla's.... make less at higher price and profit the same for less overhead than you would with a lower price, higher quantity and more manufacturing overhead.....


Which as tesla has been proving nicely, it's a fairly destructive business model.

The bike costs more than any top end sports car... and a hayabusa can't be claimed to be much else besides a top end product (and about 5 times cheaper for one that will outpace a corvette 0-60 by about half again as fast).

I don't see the draw, or the price reasoning. Marketing based upon the notion that you "can" get away with it without overhead just screws with EV marketing for everyone else.

It's like the dumb $47,000 price tag on the Chevy volt. I can't help but visualize 3rd rate engineers ringing their hands over wads of cash thinking they've created something astounding, when in reality they've done nothing new at all or even complicated. Granted this bike does have selectable regen braking, but .... meh...

Genius isn't taking a lotus elise chassis, stuffing a huge ass battery back in it, and the most expensive electric motor ever made, and selling it to 20 people. Lotus's aren't even that nicely designed in the first place, it was done out of pure laziness I suspect.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

didn't say I agree with their model... but its not aimed to be something the general masses are going to want to drive...

I'd like to see an electric motorcycle besides the GPR-S come out for around 10-15grand (paying for batteries up front) that can get me 40 miles a charge, 70-80mph top speed and feel fun to drive...

Oh wait, Thats what I did with my evfr because no one makes it yet


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

You cannot possible tell me that it isn't possible to build and sell an electric motorcycle that can do that for less than 70,000 dollars?!


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> You cannot possible tell me that it isn't possible to build and sell an electric motorcycle that can do that for less than 70,000 dollars?!


 
lol you could easily do it for like $5000 in parts (assuming you just wanted the top end speed not the low end torque)...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Technologic said:


> lol you could easily do it for like $5000 in parts (assuming you just wanted the top end speed not the low end torque)...


Doubtful. 150 miles is going to take about 15 or 16kwh of lithium batteries... those alone cost more than $5k.... try closer to $7.5k

Next, AC/controller motor to get the RPM needed to hit 150mph, and enough HP to get it there is going to cost a bit more than $5k.

Connectors, welding batteries, battery management/monitoring/balancing, charging system for it add another 5-10k.

And a custom chassis with race suspension to put it all in... thats not going to cost less than 5k... hell, just the swingarm out of billet could cost that much.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> Doubtful. 150 miles is going to take about 15 or 16kwh of lithium batteries... those alone cost more than $5k.... try closer to $7.5k....


So a motorcycle that weighs 500lbs will use more wh/mile than the aptera DC motor EV with no regen does? Well what an engineering marvel that is  I say enclose the passenger cabin if the Cd is that horrificly bad (I think you'd need a Cd of like 0.5 ... something like a hummer to have that kind of poor wh/mile on something so light with such a small frontal area). Also I'd almost guarantee this bike is not stacking 15kwh... the batteries would be larger than the chassis even with lifepo. 8-9kwh is my guess... max... which costs about $3000



> Next, AC/controller motor to get the RPM needed to hit 150mph, and enough HP to get it there is going to cost a bit more than $5k.


AC isn't even necessary for this application outside of just "wanting it" a BLDC will work just fine. Adding regen to a bike is way more simple



> Connectors, welding batteries, battery management/monitoring/balancing, charging system for it add another 5-10k.


Why on earth is any of this stuff listed over $300? Last time I checked a lithium battery BMS that monitors under/over voltage was in the 300-400 range... the rest of this stuff is SUUUPER cheap. You should have a special charger that hooks to the BMS not on the bike... again last I checked most Lifepo places sell them for 300-400 USD



> And a custom chassis with race suspension to put it all in... thats not going to cost less than 5k... hell, just the swingarm out of billet could cost that much.


This isn't a race bike, nor is it going to be sold as one. Saying that the body/frame costs more than a used hayabusa is worth is just freaking silly. That bike tops out at 250-270mph, and you're claiming this bike needs a better suspension than that $12,000 bike?

psh

I highly doubt there's over $7000 in parts on that thing... especially in any decent quantity (over 100 bikes).

If you wanted billet aluminum swing arms, just CAD one up, send it to a chinese casting company, and they'll produce them for $4 each after a $1500-2000 mold fee. 

People assume way way too much about prices when they start looking at aftermarket parts. The whole point of BUYING cars from a car company and not making one, is the price/quantity reduction they can achieve... considering I'm pretty sure the average shop could clone that bike out of dead frame parts for 1/10th that amount... I'm not gonna give them really any credit for it.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> So a motorcycle that weighs 500lbs will use more wh/mile than the aptera DC motor EV with no regen does? Well what an engineering marvel that is  I say enclose the passenger cabin if the Cd is that horrificly bad (I think you'd need a Cd of like 0.5 ... something like a hummer to have that kind of poor wh/mile on something so light with such a small frontal area)


500lb motorcycle, 100wh/mile estimate, 150miles, thats 15kwh....Most cars don't get below 200Wh/mile. I think you misunderstood my calculations.




> AC isn't even necessary for this application outside of just "wanting it" a BLDC will work just fine. Adding regen to a bike is way more simple


BLDC is just an AC motor with perm magnets in it. its essentially the same thing. Same type of controller just programmed for a bldc.... Its just not an induction motor. Its still a form of AC.... you're arguing that AC isn't needed, yet you talk about a type of AC motor....




> Why on earth is any of this stuff listed over $300? Last time I checked a lithium battery BMS that monitors under/over voltage was in the 300-400 range... the rest of this stuff is SUUUPER cheap


because its not just simple shunt balancing.... it includes monitoring to the controllers ... if you pop one cell you need to shut things down. Charger for 120V in 8hrs is a 1500W charger. Monitoring boards to report to the controller, a display for stats, and balancing for 40+ cells in series that can shunt enough current to be useable.... 10-20A minimum for that many cells in parallel. You also want to monitor temperature of each cell pack. After all is said and done, its going to cost at a min $4-5K unless you want to use simple shunts and a slow ass 700W zivan and spend 21hours charging it everytime you drive it around. 





> This isn't a race bike, nor is it going to be sold as one. Saying that the body/frame costs more than a used hayabusa is worth is just freaking silly. That bike tops out at 250-270mph, and you're claiming this bike needs a better suspension than that $12,000 bike?


hyabusas weren't built to race on a track, this one was. Read up a little more, this was built as a race bike... and has entered the TTXGP. Hyabusa's aren't built to be light, they're built to house a high HP engine. Also, the Busa tops out around 200mph, handles like shit and isn't generally used in track racing.

It DOES need a better suspension to get around the isle of man if its going to race this June.

If you think you can get the same specs out of something for under $5000 (I'll assume you've got a used roller that is useable).... then go do it.... I don't think you'll even get a motor and controller capable of 150mph for that price.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I see you edited....



> Also I'd almost guarantee this bike is not stacking 15kwh... the batteries would be larger than the chassis even with lifepo. 8-9kwh is my guess... max... which costs about $3000


I bet its close... lifepo4 cells I've seen are at 126wh/kg and 291wh/liter. They're smaller and lighter than ever. 8-9kwh, 150 miles would be 60wh/mile... not even electric scooters get that low of a wh/mile.



> If you wanted billet aluminum swing arms, just CAD one up, send it to a chinese casting company, and they'll produce them for $4 each after a $1500-2000 mold fee.


 Billet is a high quality piece of cast ingot. Its very pure and very strong and has been tempered to a hardness. Casting is definately not as strong... whats what we call forged.



> People assume way way too much about prices when they start looking at aftermarket parts. The whole point of BUYING cars from a car company and not making one, is the price/quantity reduction they can achieve... considering I'm pretty sure the average shop could clone that bike out of dead frame parts for 1/10th that amount... I'm not gonna give them really any credit for it.


I'm not assuming anything. This is real world data that I'm working with from my direct experience in building an electric race bike and people who work in petrol racing. you might be able to get some of the parts for 7k, but machining/welding/custom parts is going to at the very least double the cost.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> 500lb motorcycle, 100wh/mile estimate, 150miles, thats 15kwh....Most cars don't get below 200Wh/mile. I think you misunderstood my calculations.


 You missed my point... my point was I'm disappointed if they were using that much battery pack, as the Aptera EV has a 120 mile range, weighs 1800 lbs, straight DC motor with no regen, and pack size is 10kwh




> BLDC is just an AC motor with perm magnets in it. its essentially the same thing. Same type of controller just programmed for a bldc.... Its just not an induction motor. Its still a form of AC.... you're arguing that AC isn't needed, yet you talk about a type of AC motor....
> 
> 
> because its not just simple shunt balancing.... it includes monitoring to the controllers ... if you pop one cell you need to shut things down. Charger for 120V in 8hrs is a 1500W charger. Monitoring boards to report to the controller, a display for stats, and balancing for 40+ cells in series that can shunt enough current to be useable.... 10-20A minimum for that many cells in parallel. You also want to monitor temperature of each cell pack. After all is said and done, its going to cost at a min $4-5K unless you want to use simple shunts and a slow ass 700W zivan and spend 21hours charging it everytime you drive it around.


 This sort of monitoring is one off, and wholly unnecessary for OEMs... Lifepo manufacturers will be happy to create 1 or 2 modules that are autobalanced for larger orders (ie. for 50-100 bikes). Not to mention this style of BMS currently doesn't exist in any cars that I'm aware of... and not really necessary either (since in most instances your shop will simply throw OUT the entire pack without testing... that's just how mechanics work). 
I was quoted $300 for a premade battery charger for a 9kwh pack (chinese)... I'm sure they could toss a 1500w PSU together for a whole $100 in parts if they felt like designing one... the last time I checked on large scale toroidal transformers FOB 1500w amplifier ones I could use were on average $25 (often the most costly aspect of chargers)







> hyabusas weren't built to race on a track, this one was. Read up a little more, this was built as a race bike... and has entered the TTXGP. Hyabusa's aren't built to be light, they're built to house a high HP engine. Also, the Busa tops out around 200mph, handles like shit and isn't generally used in track racing.
> 
> It DOES need a better suspension to get around the isle of man if its going to race this June.
> 
> If you think you can get the same specs out of something for under $5000 (I'll assume you've got a used roller that is useable).... then go do it.... I don't think you'll even get a motor and controller capable of 150mph for that price.


The article said nothing about them selling 50 racing quality bikes, maybe I'm mistaken though. the Busa TT I've seen get into the mid 200 MPH range.

Also the better suspension argument is a weak one too me... there's likely nothing in the suspension different than a stock one outside of the N/M retention... if it was made out of sintered SiC or something, maybe... but I'm confident it's just aluminum.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> Billet is a high quality piece of cast ingot. Its very pure and very strong and has been tempered to a hardness. Casting is definately not as strong... whats what we call forged.


actually no... forged is never done with aluminum ever (because of AlO build up)

Ingot casting is casting of all types. The take ingots shove them into an induction furnace or a injection molding machine and blamo you have your parts.

There's no other way to cast aluminum, billet is just heat treated and speaks to processes done AFTER casting... which can be done to any casted part.

the quotation of $4 is probably too high btw... last part I tried to get quoted that was about 3 lbs of 99.95% casted was around $3.25 in quantities over 500. 

Also it should be noted that forging is done after casting... or it's a means to hand shape metal, which is never done with aluminum.

I'm telling you this, so you don't think that the $5000 you spent on a swing arm was justified... but you understand that you could have casted the part or machined it then heat treated it for far far cheaper

The reason they rip people off for those parts should be obvious at this point.

Carbon fiber drive axels in cars (with something like 100,000 PSI of torsional strength) are $2000-3000, but the same diameter carbon fiber tube is only $20/ft... go figure?

My point was at this price point the buyers are the stupidly wealthy or the wealthy and stupid. I can't imagine anyone justifying this sort of price range for such a mediocre "fun" bike. If people intend to race them, maybe, but even then it's iffy to me.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> You missed my point... my point was I'm disappointed if they were using that much battery pack, as the Aptera EV has a 120 mile range, weighs 1800 lbs, straight DC motor with no regen, and pack size is 10kwh


the aptera is at best 80wh/mile at 55mph... so I'm only a few wh/mile off.... still nowhere NEAR what it'd take to get a hummer 150miles. I wasn't aware that the aptera was that low... but its teardrop and less coeff of the types of bikes I've looked at. They're close, but the aptera is a more sleap design.



> This sort of monitoring is one off, and wholly unnecessary for OEMs... Lifepo manufacturers will be happy to create 1 or 2 modules that are autobalanced for larger orders (ie. for 50-100 bikes). Not to mention this style of BMS currently doesn't exist in any cars that I'm aware of... and not really necessary either (since in most instances your shop will simply throw OUT the entire pack without testing... that's just how mechanics work).


It still adds to the cost of the batteries. Tesla monitors battery voltages and temperature... so do some conversion groups like hybrids plus,himotion...etc. Its the tradeoff for using small format batteries. If one goes, you're whole pack goes. If you monitor, you can avoid it by throttling back the controller.



> I was quoted $300 for a premade battery charger for a 9kwh pack (chinese)... I'm sure they could toss a 1500w PSU together for a whole $100 in parts if they felt like designing one... the last time I checked on large scale toroidal transformers FOB 1500w amplifier ones I could use were on average $25 (often the most costly aspect of chargers)


charger for a 9kwh pack... how many volts? 1500W isn't a small power supply, but its all the 120 outlet will supply. After adding smarts to it to integrate with the BMS, its still going to cost 500 or so to produce after putting it in an enclosure.



> The article said nothing about them selling 50 racing quality bikes, maybe I'm mistaken though. the Busa TT I've seen get into the mid 200 MPH range.


 Touche, it didn't... there's several articles out there right now... I think that's their goal though, after reading them. Its meant to be more of a ducati of electric motorcycles. I haven't seen busa's break 220... could be mistaken... 



> Also the better suspension argument is a weak one too me... there's likely nothing in the suspension different than a stock one outside of the N/M retention... if it was made out of sintered SiC or something, maybe... but I'm confident it's just aluminum.


 a stock one what? Ducati SS? Yeah, you're probably right, but they're also not a $5000 bike.... when I say suspension, I gave an example of one piece of it, I was talking the entire bike front and rear.

If they could get quantities above 5000 units a year, they'd be able to sell for MUCH less... I think 68k is rediculously high too... I bet they spent more than 100k developing that bike to where it is... and they don't really intend to do many the first few years. If honda or Yamaha came out with one, they could handle the volume and keep pricing low. Just not true with a startup company basing much of their product on vaporware.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Technologic said:


> actually no... forged is never done with aluminum ever (because of AlO build up)
> 
> Ingot casting is casting of all types. The take ingots shove them into an induction furnace or a injection molding machine and blamo you have your parts.
> 
> ...


Points all taken, I think I misused forged... I meant cast... but castings aren't neccessarily machined or heat treated... but yes, they can be had for far cheaper... if they could sell that many. 

Racing seems their market... average user not so much. 

I'd rather just get some lifepo in my bike, finish the charger and get her going! I did mine for under 1k so far, another 2-3k for lifepo and I'm set... i won't get 150miles, or go 150mph, but I bet I can get over 70mph and get 40-50 miles a charge. You're right though, the real people that would make best use of these couldn't afford them.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

frodus said:


> the aptera is at best 80wh/mile at 55mph... so I'm only a few wh/mile off.... still nowhere NEAR what it'd take to get a hummer 150miles. I wasn't aware that the aptera was that low... but its teardrop and less coeff of the types of bikes I've looked at. They're close, but the aptera is a more sleap design.


Well the aptera is amazing because it gets that wh/mile off of such high weight (4 motorcycles). Well not amazing, but certainly a new breed for EVs.
Weight of the vehicle has direct correlation to rolling resistance drag and wind drag... sad but true



> It still adds to the cost of the batteries. Tesla monitors battery voltages and temperature... so do some conversion groups like hybrids plus,himotion...etc. Its the tradeoff for using small format batteries. If one goes, you're whole pack goes. If you monitor, you can avoid it by throttling back the controller.


I attached a picture of a chinese BMS/charger (seperate modules) that was quoted for $700 per pair (offers around 1500w max out of a wall outlet at 96v)

This BMS claims to monitor temp, overvoltage, undervoltage and cuts off any charger at the proper cycle. I do not have first hand confirmation of this... yet. I do know that such things are in general, cheaper than you'd imagine from their REAL sources.


> charger for a 9kwh pack... how many volts? 1500W isn't a small power supply, but its all the 120 outlet will supply. After adding smarts to it to integrate with the BMS, its still going to cost 500 or so to produce after putting it in an enclosure.
> 
> Touche, it didn't... there's several articles out there right now... I think that's their goal though, after reading them. Its meant to be more of a ducati of electric motorcycles. I haven't seen busa's break 220... could be mistaken...


I've seen a few youtube videos showing someone going over 250mph, no idea what the bike had on it though.



> a stock one what? Ducati SS? Yeah, you're probably right, but they're also not a $5000 bike.... when I say suspension, I gave an example of one piece of it, I was talking the entire bike front and rear.
> 
> If they could get quantities above 5000 units a year, they'd be able to sell for MUCH less... I think 68k is rediculously high too... I bet they spent more than 100k developing that bike to where it is... and they don't really intend to do many the first few years. If honda or Yamaha came out with one, they could handle the volume and keep pricing low. Just not true with a startup company basing much of their product on vaporware.


 I don't think it's necessarily a bad business model if they don't stick to it for long. I do think it's a bad problem for EVs though, that only the aptera is under $30k, and also boasts one of the longest EV ranges as well.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

150 mph -- I hope so but will be pleasantly surprised if it makes it. Bring it out to the Salt Flats!


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

Tough room. Anyway, according to another article I read, they will do 250 units of a standard Mission One after the 50 Limited Editions. After that, they will expand the range. Their business plan came in second in a competition in 2007. I have a feeling they will do pretty well. They have a small, but very talented group there.

If that's too long and too much there are other alternatives cheaper and sooner. The Zero S is for sale now. It will be unveiled by the end of the month. Now you can only see renders.

Of course there is also the slower Brammo and the Quantya Strada. Besides those, there is another company or two that haven't gone public with their bikes yet.

I saw an article that called 2009 the "Year of the electric car". I think that was clearly wrong. It's more of a "Year of the Electric Motorcycle".


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