# [EVDL] New Optima pack



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Of the 4 I've done so far, 2 started a little hiss venting when they
> > were down to about 1.5A charging, 1 didn't vent at all, and 1 started
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Okay, so I finished charging every battery at 14.50volts, down to 1.4A. 
Some took longer, some did some venting.
I then took the Sparrow out for a spin around the block. 6.6 miles over 
rolling hills at 40-50mph. This used 1.27 KWH.
At about the 4 mile mark, I noticed that the voltage was dropping down 
to 140v with only a 120A draw. (up a slight hill.)

As soon as I got home, I checked the voltages on all 13 Optimas.
12.43, 12.45, 12.44, 12.40, 12.45, 10.68, 12.42, 12.44, 12.49, 12.43, 
12.43, 11.43, 12.37

Note that batteries #6 and #12 show problems. #12 was venting a 
little. The reg on #6 had it's undervoltage light lit. #12 doesn't 
currently have a reg attached.

Looks like I have 2 bad batteries. sigh.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey John,

Well that is bad news, but, it makes me feel a bit better. I say that 
because I had the same experience. After about 2000 miles on our new 
NmG - with a new pack we had three batteries fail. I never heard them 
venting. I have bad hearing and could have missed it, but I don't think 
so because Heidi has excellent hearing and she is very observant in 
that way.

Anyway, I contacted Optima and spoke to Bridget regarding warranty 
replacement. She informed me that using Optima batteries in an electric 
vehicle voids any warranty. That is regardless of charger type, battery 
management or whatever - No warranty if used in an EV.

Just curious, have you checked with them regarding warranty?

Ken





-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>; 
[email protected]
Sent: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 8:48 pm

Subject: [EVDL] New Optima pack

Okay, so I finished charging every battery at 14.50volts, down to 1.4A.
Some took longer, some did some venting.
I then took the Sparrow out for a spin around the block. 6.6 miles over
rolling hills at 40-50mph. This used 1.27 KWH.
At about the 4 mile mark, I noticed that the voltage was dropping down
to 140v with only a 120A draw. (up a slight hill.)

As soon as I got home, I checked the voltages on all 13 Optimas.
12.43, 12.45, 12.44, 12.40, 12.45, 10.68, 12.42, 12.44, 12.49, 12.43,
12.43, 11.43, 12.37

Note that batteries #6 and #12 show problems. #12 was venting a
little. The reg on #6 had it's undervoltage light lit. #12 doesn't
currently have a reg attached.

Looks like I have 2 bad batteries. sigh.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Did you say you stopped chargeing at 1.4Amps? Is this a regulated
> > 14.5Volt supply?
> > You may be obscureing your SOC.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 


> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > Did you say you stopped chargeing at 1.4Amps? Is this a regulated
> > > 14.5Volt supply?
> > > You may be obscureing your SOC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ralph said 
"Did you follow the taper with a 2 amp constant current charge for an hour?
You need to completely disable the regulators during this phase, since the
battery voltageis will get quite high, maybe even up to 17 volts." 

Are optima's significantly differnet than orbitals?

I don't think this is a good idea for optima's. Never go over 14V and never go over an amp once over 14.5V.
Maybe this is a floodie technique? Optima's have a platinum pellet in the battery top that acts as a re-combiner to take the hydrogen that has gassed and recombine it back with the avail o2 into water. If you exceed this little pellet's capacity the pressure builds and you pop a vent. From what I am told thye can handle about 1 amp worth of gassing.

I got lucky with the orbitals(exide brand) that I had gotten. They knew up front they were going in an EV and honored the warrentee. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] New Optima Pack*

I just re-read the optima and the orbital chargeing spec. Maybe I am
undercharging my pack.

How do I do an IUI charge with the typical PFC charger and regulator set
up? Is this the best way? Every Charge ?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Never go over 14V and never go over an amp once over 14.5V.

Just a little friendly ribbing here. But, how can the second part even be possible? ;-)

Did you mean never go over 15v?


reminds me of a multiple guess test I once took, the answers went something like....

a. cold
b. snow
c. rain
d. none of the above
e. all of the above


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Jeff Shanab writes:
> 
> I just re-read the optima and the orbital chargeing spec. Maybe I am
> undercharging my pack.
> 
> How do I do an IUI charge with the typical PFC charger and regulator set
> up? Is this the best way? Every Charge ?

You can't run the published Optima charge profile without disconnecting
the regulators for the final phase. The voltage has to be uncontrolled,
and it will exceed the limit settings of the regulator, even when they're
in 'equalize' mode.

There are many opinions about how often the final phase needs to be done
(and even *if* it should be done). The spec assumes that the battery has
just been discharged down to 10.5v. If you aren't discharging this deeply,
a couple of obvious choices for the final phase are to either run it for
some percentage of an hour every charge cycle, or to count amp hours drawn
out and only run the final phase every <rated AH> (55AH for the Optimas).
I'm leaning towards the second choice, which for my commute works out to
running the final phase every other charge cycle.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > On the two batteries that are 'bad', try discharging them at 25 amps down
> > to 10.5v, then give them a proper charge (any current until 14.7v, hold
> > 14.7v until the current drops below 1 amp, then do 2 amps for an hour with
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > I've left everything sit overnight, now I'm going to go out and see what
> > the resting voltages are.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John G. Lussmyer writes:
> 


> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > > I've left everything sit overnight, now I'm going to go out and see what
> > > the resting voltages are.
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > If these are resting voltages after sitting overnight after a full charge,
> > your batteries aren't fully charged. They should be closer to 13.0v or
> > 13.1v. I have some that hold about 13.1v for several days...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> 
> > If these are resting voltages after sitting overnight
> > after a full charge, your batteries aren't fully charged.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton writes:
> 
> John, based on your observation of a hot spot on one of the cells of
> battery #6, I would strongly suggest that you remove it from the vehicle
> immediately. Even if you have good insurance, it can't be that much fun

I missed the comment about the hot spot. Ditto Roger's comment about
removing that battery from the vehicle right now... It probably gets
hot while driving too.


> > They should be closer to 13.0v or 13.1v. I have some
> > that hold about 13.1v for several days...
> 
> Some? FWIW, even your old blems in my car will hold 13.0-13.2V for days.

I should've said 'most'. I have one that won't. It also gets warmer
than the others while charing.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > I missed the comment about the hot spot. Ditto Roger's comment about
> > removing that battery from the vehicle right now... It probably gets
> > hot while driving too.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > I don't think this is a good idea for optima's. Never go over
> > 14V and never go over an amp once over 14.5V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, 15V is what I meant to type. I Fat Fingered that one.

My last pack died early, the seven batteries that were in the best
condition were the ones up front that the regs got removed from. I was
alwasy wondering if I chronically undercharged the ones with regs or if
they had gotten hot being inside the cabin. I sent them back for
analysis and never did get an answer. But they, Exide, replaced the
whole pack under warrantee!!!

I just want to make sure I am treating these correctly.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Would 1amp for 4 hours do the same as 2A for 2 hours? is it just about
amphours? I am thinking 2A for an hour is just a maximum to get last 4Ah
in there or ~last 10%.?

If so, that prevents the high voltage spike that trips off the charger
or triggers the regulators.

I have taken to leaving my charger on for 8 hours at .7A once a week and
it really seems to help. But I drive almost every day, so I need a good
mid week solution and something more automatic than PFC and regs then.

The statement about 13.1 after 8 hours of sitting fully charged is
interesting as that would be 314V and mine is ussually around 305V.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Jeff Shanab writes:
> 
> Would 1amp for 4 hours do the same as 2A for 2 hours? is it just about
> amphours? I am thinking 2A for an hour is just a maximum to get last 4Ah
> in there or ~last 10%.?

Jeff,

The Excide spec shows a final phase of 1.5 amps for 2 hours. This does
return 3AH, but the stated current is important because it's needed to
get the cells to a higher voltage than normal, to help balance them.
If you don't drive the voltage up they won't get into balance.


> If so, that prevents the high voltage spike that trips off the charger
> or triggers the regulators.

See above. Higher voltages are required, so the regulators must be
disabled. A PITA, but required.


> I have taken to leaving my charger on for 8 hours at .7A once a week and
> it really seems to help. But I drive almost every day, so I need a good
> mid week solution and something more automatic than PFC and regs then.
> 
> The statement about 13.1 after 8 hours of sitting fully charged is
> interesting as that would be 314V and mine is ussually around 305V.

The Excide spec doesn't list a "fully charged" voltage. If they have
the same fully charged voltage as Optimas, that would imply that your
pack is undercharged. You should get the Excide "fully charged"
voltage value.

I also notice that the Excide spec shows a current limit for the first
constant-current phase: "20% of nominal capacity (approx. 15 amps)".
Do you have your PFC current limit set properly, or do you have it
turned up higher?

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > I let the batteries sit for a couple hours after an hour+ at a 2A charge
> > rate.
> > Now they are all in the 12.95 to 13.05 range - except #12 which is at
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If Optima (Johnson Controls) is going to deny warranty coverage on batteries 
used in EVs, then I suppose Optima purchasers should give every battery a 
thorough test in a non-EV application, or on a test jig at a standard 25 
amps, before dropping it into the EV. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Roden wrote:
> > If Optima (Johnson Controls) is going to deny warranty coverage on batteries
> > used in EVs, then I suppose Optima purchasers should give every battery a
> > thorough test in a non-EV application, or on a test jig at a standard 25
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Would 1amp for 4 hours do the same as 2A for 2 hours?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

> I also notice that the Excide spec shows a current limit for the first
> constant-current phase: "20% of nominal capacity (approx. 15 amps)".
> Do you have your PFC current limit set properly, or do you have it
> turned up higher?
>
> Ralph
Actually I have a 300volt pack and a 15amp 120 plug So 4.5 amps is the max I can pump in on the dc side without popping a breaker.

By disable regs, do you mean thedip switch that bumps up the reg voltage 10% 14.77-->16.27 or unplugging the cable.

This explains then how I murdered my last pack. This needs to be made clear to buyers and perhaps automated some. Maybe Rich has addressed this in the new revision of regs? 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Jeff Shanab writes:
> 
> By disable regs, do you mean the dip switch that bumps up the reg voltage
> 10% 14.77-->16.27 or unplugging the cable.

The dip switch on the charger puts the regs into equalize mode, which raises
the upper voltage limit by about a volt. So if your regs are set for 14.7v
they will regulate at about 15.7v in equalize mode. For Optimas, this is
too low and the regulators interfere with the charge cycle. Excides may
also need to go higher than the higher regulator setting.

To disable the regs, you need to physically disconnect each regulator from
it's battery during the final charge phase. You could pull the fuse, or
pull the positive lead off the Faston connector or you could install a
switch on the positive wire to the reg.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

>
> To disable the regs, you need to physically disconnect each regulator from
> it's battery during the final charge phase. You could pull the fuse, or
> pull the positive lead off the Faston connector or you could install a
> switch on the positive wire to the reg.
>
> Ralph

This is ridiculus. Can't be correct. People buying the set up would be
furious.

I think I need to re-read the instructions.
I think I read that the equalize mode is 10% and I know they can be
adjusted.
There are timers once you reach certain points so maybe it is just a
matter of setting the max current control to 1.5A and flipping the dip
switch once a week (once the regs are flashing)

Rich, You got you ears on?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > This is ridiculus. Can't be correct. People buying the set up would be
> > furious.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Jeff Shanab writes:
> 
> >
> > To disable the regs, you need to physically disconnect each regulator from
> > it's battery during the final charge phase. You could pull the fuse, or
> > pull the positive lead off the Faston connector or you could install a
> > switch on the positive wire to the reg.
> >
> > Ralph
> 
> This is ridiculus. Can't be correct. People buying the set up would be
> furious.

If the buyer doesn't intend to do the unregulated voltage 2h/1hr phase,
then it isn't an issue. A lot of Optima users feel this phase isn't
proper to do, so they don't. I think many Exide users also skip this
phase.


> I think I need to re-read the instructions.
> I think I read that the equalize mode is 10% and I know they can be
> adjusted.

Yes, the upper voltage set point is adjustable, and when the regs are in
equalize mode the set point is raised about 10%. So a 14.7v set point
is raised to about 16.17v. This is still too low. I regularly see my
batteries go up to 16.5v, sometimes to 17v.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Roger Stockton writes:
> 
> Ralph had regs on the pack of YTs he gave me before he tried NiCds. I'm
> confident they were suffering from chronic undercharging, and that is
> why I was able to bring them back sufficiently to use them in my car. I
> don't think he was disabling the regs periodically back then, and I
> suspect he will get much better life from his present pack now that he
> is.

On my current pack of Optimas, I have (until recently) not done the
2a/1hr phase. Partly because it was a pain to do (my regs were not
setup with an easy disconnect), and partly because so many people
were so vocal about this phase not being good for the batteries.

A few months ago I started noticing several buddy pairs in my pack
getting 'red LEDs' on the regulators - these pairs went under 10.5v.
I've been testing my batteries and have discovered that many are
severly undercharged, and that after doing the specified Optima
charge cycle, complete with the 2a/1hr phase, their capacities are
coming back into line with the rest of the pack. I have one pair
that recovered from an initial test of a mere 9AH to 26.7AH. When
running tests on this pair, I found that there was no increase in
capacity unless I ran the 2a/1hr phase. Skipping this phase resulted
in a lower capacity on the next test. A few other batteries also
recovered slightly, but have stopped recovering and are toast.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

>>>

Snip, Snip...
Yes, the upper voltage set point is adjustable, and when the regs are in
equalize mode the set point is raised about 10%. So a 14.7v set point
is raised to about 16.17v. This is still too low. I regularly see my
batteries go up to 16.5v, sometimes to 17v.

Ralph

>>>

Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and a 
Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse 
for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each 
day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to 
work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish phase 
does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.

Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging 
voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some 
batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I 
noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum 
voltage. So, I built some regs that turn on sharply at 15.6 volts and 
conduct 1.5 amps. This means any batteries that went over 15.6 volts 
would then be getting 1 amp and the batteries below 15.6 was still 
getting the 2.5 amps.

Prior to installing the regulators, we noticed the capacity started 
dropping. About a month after noticing the capacity drop, three 
batteries died. It was the three that always had the highest voltage - 
over 16. We determined the bad batteries with a controlled water cooled 
60 amp dummy load test. The three bad batteries dropped to 10.5 volts 
within 8 minutes. The rest were still over 12 volts.

We replaced the three batteries and installed the regulators. This was 
in May. The capacity is holding steady and all of the batteries have 
equalized to within .1 volt of each other.

After this experience, I find this thread confusing. ???

Ken


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

[email protected] writes:
> 
> Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and a 
> Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse 
> for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each 
> day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to 
> work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish phase 
> does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.

So the Zivan charger runs the finish phase every cycle, no matter what
the prior depth of discharge was? I wonder how Zivan determined that
the 2.5 amp pulses for 6 hours was suitable instead of the specified
2 amps for an hour?

Does the Zivan have temperature sensors for each battery? If not,
some batteries were likely getting hotter, and were likely cooking.
The NmG/Sparrow has some batteries that get hotter than the others,
right? Perhaps these batteries were among those that died?

What does the full Zivan charge profile look like?


> Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging 
> voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some 
> batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I 
> noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum 
> voltage.

Note that the 15.6v limit is for "Rapid Recharge" applications, i.e.
high-current opportunity charging. The spec for "Cyclic Applications"
doesn't have a voltage limit.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Yes, I did notice that after this thread started, however, what 
actually happened supported my initial interpretation that 15.6 volts 
was the limit. Additionally, after this thread started, I removed the 
regs. The car has been driven and charged as before and the capacity 
has not changed. I say capacity, I am really referring to the no load 
voltage after reaching routine destinations and the voltage sag at 
specific amps during the trip. It's only been a week (a little over 100 
miles) so that is probably not conclusive.

My confusion, is that the batteries that went over 16 volts were the 
ones that died. Since putting the 15.6 volt regs on, the pack has 
remained stable. the regs have only been on for about 4 months, or 
about 1600 miles. Perhaps that is not enough time?

I really would like to know more about this since my experience seems 
to conflict with what I read.

Could the difference be the charge time? instead of 2 amps for 1 hour, 
it is getting 1 amp pulse for 6 hours (if over 15.6 volts) or 2.5 amps 
pulse (if under 15.6 volts).

Currently,after about three hours of the final pulse phase, there is 
only 2 batteries that does not go over 15.6 volts, but they are right 
at 15.5 to 15.6. And still, using the dummy load test, the lower 
batteries do not have the lowest capacity.

Thanks,

Ken




-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Merwin <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:13 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack



[email protected] writes:
>
> Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and 
a
> Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse
> for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each
> day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to
> work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish 
phase
> does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.

So the Zivan charger runs the finish phase every cycle, no matter what
the prior depth of discharge was? I wonder how Zivan determined that
the 2.5 amp pulses for 6 hours was suitable instead of the specified
2 amps for an hour?

Does the Zivan have temperature sensors for each battery? If not,
some batteries were likely getting hotter, and were likely cooking.
The NmG/Sparrow has some batteries that get hotter than the others,
right? Perhaps these batteries were among those that died?

What does the full Zivan charge profile look like?


> Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging
> voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some
> batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I
> noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum
> voltage.

Note that the 15.6v limit is for "Rapid Recharge" applications, i.e.
high-current opportunity charging. The spec for "Cyclic Applications"
doesn't have a voltage limit.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Ken,

In an earlier message you mentioned that the Zivan pulses the batteries
for six hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees F. I'm curious
where the temperature sensor is located, and how many sensors there are.

If there's one sensor that is used as a proxy for all of the batteries,
then it's very likely that some batteries are getting quite hot and are
going unnoticed because the sensor is on a cooler battery. If this is
the case, these batteries probably got cooked (not from going over 16v,
but from getting too hot).

Putting your regs on the batteries probably helps keep them from getting
too hot.

Ralph


[email protected] writes:
> 
> Yes, I did notice that after this thread started, however, what 
> actually happened supported my initial interpretation that 15.6 volts 
> was the limit. Additionally, after this thread started, I removed the 
> regs. The car has been driven and charged as before and the capacity 
> has not changed. I say capacity, I am really referring to the no load 
> voltage after reaching routine destinations and the voltage sag at 
> specific amps during the trip. It's only been a week (a little over 100 
> miles) so that is probably not conclusive.
> 
> My confusion, is that the batteries that went over 16 volts were the 
> ones that died. Since putting the 15.6 volt regs on, the pack has 
> remained stable. the regs have only been on for about 4 months, or 
> about 1600 miles. Perhaps that is not enough time?
> 
> I really would like to know more about this since my experience seems 
> to conflict with what I read.
> 
> Could the difference be the charge time? instead of 2 amps for 1 hour, 
> it is getting 1 amp pulse for 6 hours (if over 15.6 volts) or 2.5 amps 
> pulse (if under 15.6 volts).
> 
> Currently,after about three hours of the final pulse phase, there is 
> only 2 batteries that does not go over 15.6 volts, but they are right 
> at 15.5 to 15.6. And still, using the dummy load test, the lower 
> batteries do not have the lowest capacity.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Merwin <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:13 am
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
> 
> 
> 
> [email protected] writes:
> >
> > Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and 
> a
> > Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse
> > for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each
> > day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to
> > work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish 
> phase
> > does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.
> 
> So the Zivan charger runs the finish phase every cycle, no matter what
> the prior depth of discharge was? I wonder how Zivan determined that
> the 2.5 amp pulses for 6 hours was suitable instead of the specified
> 2 amps for an hour?
> 
> Does the Zivan have temperature sensors for each battery? If not,
> some batteries were likely getting hotter, and were likely cooking.
> The NmG/Sparrow has some batteries that get hotter than the others,
> right? Perhaps these batteries were among those that died?
> 
> What does the full Zivan charge profile look like?
> 
> 
> > Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging
> > voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some
> > batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I
> > noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum
> > voltage.
> 
> Note that the 15.6v limit is for "Rapid Recharge" applications, i.e.
> high-current opportunity charging. The spec for "Cyclic Applications"
> doesn't have a voltage limit.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Thanks Ralph,

There is only one sensor and it is mounted on the center most battery 
in the set of seven under the seat. I believe this is a pretty good 
place for it because that is where there is the least air flow from the 
fans. Typically, the 120 degree cut off never occurs, except for the 
last month or so and that is because the ambient temperature has been 
near that. The pavement reads 140 degrees at 5:30 PM when I am driving 
home from work.

When I first noticed the capacity decline, I started monitoring the 
battery temps with a laser pointing infrared thermometer. The batteries 
under the seat did get the hottest, however, only one under the seat 
died. The other two were under the hood where they were usually about 
two degrees cooler than the ones under the seat. I suspect that is 
because the ones under the seat is closer to the pavement. Typically, 
when the daytime high is over 100, the charger will not even start. It 
produces an error code indicating the battery temp sensor is out of 
range. The laser thermometer confirms that, but the whole car is over 
120 degrees and the batteries are never more that two degrees hotter 
than any other surface in the car. I have to let it set till after 
sundown before it will charge. Never a problem in the morning at work 
though.

I did expect the bad batteries would have gotten much hotter than the 
others, but they never got more than a degree over the battery next to 
it. And that is measuring them immediately after a 10 mile drive with 
frequent 150 to 200 amp draws. That is when I decided to do the dummy 
load test because I did not feel the temperature measurement was 
conclusive enough.

It does get hot here, usually a couple months of over 100 degree days. 
The two battery compartments are ventilated with fans with an inlet and 
outlet under the car. I wonder if the summer heat aided their decline? 
But, if so, I would expect they would all die, yet they are doing fine 
now. And it's still hot outside!......?????

I really want to figure this out! I really appreciate your input on 
this subject!

Ken




-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Merwin <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 1:58 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack



Ken,

In an earlier message you mentioned that the Zivan pulses the batteries
for six hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees F. I'm curious
where the temperature sensor is located, and how many sensors there are.

If there's one sensor that is used as a proxy for all of the batteries,
then it's very likely that some batteries are getting quite hot and are
going unnoticed because the sensor is on a cooler battery. If this is
the case, these batteries probably got cooked (not from going over 16v,
but from getting too hot).

Putting your regs on the batteries probably helps keep them from getting
too hot.

Ralph


[email protected] writes:
>
> Yes, I did notice that after this thread started, however, what
> actually happened supported my initial interpretation that 15.6 volts
> was the limit. Additionally, after this thread started, I removed the
> regs. The car has been driven and charged as before and the capacity
> has not changed. I say capacity, I am really referring to the no load
> voltage after reaching routine destinations and the voltage sag at
> specific amps during the trip. It's only been a week (a little over 
100
> miles) so that is probably not conclusive.
>
> My confusion, is that the batteries that went over 16 volts were the
> ones that died. Since putting the 15.6 volt regs on, the pack has
> remained stable. the regs have only been on for about 4 months, or
> about 1600 miles. Perhaps that is not enough time?
>
> I really would like to know more about this since my experience seems
> to conflict with what I read.
>
> Could the difference be the charge time? instead of 2 amps for 1 
hour,
> it is getting 1 amp pulse for 6 hours (if over 15.6 volts) or 2.5 
amps
> pulse (if under 15.6 volts).
>
> Currently,after about three hours of the final pulse phase, there is
> only 2 batteries that does not go over 15.6 volts, but they are right
> at 15.5 to 15.6. And still, using the dummy load test, the lower
> batteries do not have the lowest capacity.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> 
> > I have one pair that recovered from an initial test of a mere 9AH
> > to 26.7AH. When running tests on this pair, I found that there
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > There is only one sensor and it is mounted on the center most battery
> > in the set of seven under the seat.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

roger Stockton writes:
> 
> If you prefer the gentle but slow approach, then hang those weaklings
> off a 15V power supply with a 100W 120V bulb in series with each battery
> to limit the current. Leave it for at least a weekend, and ideally
> several days.

I haven't tried this method. I'll set it up soon and see how it works.


> Or, try the Optima-recommended "conditioning charge":
...
> Obviously you would want to fully discharge the batteries first before
> putting them on charge for 16hrs. You can also apply this treatment by
> fully charging the batteries normally, then applying 4A for an hour or
> two, let the batteries rest to cool, then re-apply 4A for another hour
> or two, etc.

I have tried the conditioning charge a few times, but stopped it after
a few hours when the battery started getting too warm. I hadn't thought
of breaking it up like this. I assume you continue until the battery
accumulates the full 16 hours?


> I've had good results with both the "modified" 4A approach and the long
> slow float. I expect you are testing your batteries at a higher
> discharge rate than 25A, but at 25A I was getting 80-100% of the rated
> reserve capacity from each of your blems, and in real world driving
> (i.e. frequent 450A bursts) I was getting 27-28Ah from a single string
> of them. The weakest are now limiting me to about 22Ah in real driving,
> but if you're only getting 27Ah from a pair I think you can certainly
> recover them further if you ar willing to get a bit "rougher" on them.

I have a 25 amp constant current discharger that stps when the battery
reaches 10.5v. Very handy...

Ralph

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*

Thanks Roger,

I think things are becoming more clear.

To answer your questions:
The temperature sensor is taped to the body in the valley between the 
two center cells. The tape is HVAC tape. I think that is about as good 
as you can get without it being inside the battery.

Actually, no, the pulse phase rarely makes it to 6 hour - typically 2 
or 3. The pulse phase does look at two parameters: temperature and the 
dv/dt of the pulses. When the rate of change of voltage drops below 
10mv between pulses, it stops. Until that time, the pulse width narrows 
as the dv/dt drops.

I typically draw between 10 to 13 Ah between charges.
The clampers that I build was set to not interfere with the Zivan's 
pulse phase. To do that, I monitored the peak voltage across the pack 
during a pulse. This was measured very near the end of the phase or the 
maximum voltage ever attained which was 203 volts. Then I divided that 
voltage by the number of batteries (15.6 volts) and set the regulators 
to that voltage. The point was to lessen (but not eliminate) the 
current through the batteries that went over 15.6 and leave the ones 
under 15.6 alone.

This scheme seems to work well, since the Zivan pulse phase has not 
been affected, and the pack is very well balanced even with three new 
batteries.

Very good questions, Roger. Sometimes good questions can shed light on 
a subject!

Ken




-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Stockton <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > There is only one sensor and it is mounted on the center most battery
> > in the set of seven under the seat.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack*



> Ralph Merwin wrote:
> 
> > I have tried the conditioning charge a few times, but
> > stopped it after a few hours when the battery started
> ...


----------

