# Project "Tempest", wooden tadpole



## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi everyone! Now that my research thread has served its purpose, I'm ready to actually begin work on the project, so here I am with a fresh start. 

Having no experience or equipment for welding, I'm wary of building a Frankenstein trike out of chopped up bikes bolted together.

A more sensible idea to me (and reinforced by my research) is to build it from a material I DO have the materials and skills to work with. This blog showed me that a wooden tadpole is indeed doable. He says he's already put 7000km on it and no major problems. 

http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/

Plans for his "Zelo" can also be found on his site:
http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/mise-en-plan-tricycle.pdf


While his design is beautiful and functional, he mentions in a few places that the steering is not very good, and that the design is not terribly efficient. It's mostly attractive and durable.

The design I've decided on for my trike is the Thunderbolt by Practical Innovations:

http://www.ihpva.org/Projects/PracticalInnovations/index.html

and incorporating some elements of the Thunderbolt MKIII / Spitfire later developed by the same person:

http://www.hellbentcycles.com/

My end goal is to use the design precision of the Thunderbolt trikes, and some of the methods of assembly seen in the Zelo. In this way I should end up with a vehicle that is structurally sound, efficient, and aesthetically pleasing.

I will of course need to work the electric motor, batteries, and supporting hardware into the design, but I'm fairly certain the motor will fit under the seat, and the batteries can be built into a framework on either side of the rear wheel. If I need additional battery space I could foreseeably put some below the crank in the front as well to further balance weight distribution.

Because I'm building out of wood I decided the methods used in the Thunderbolt construction via welding tubes together would be impractical to emulate. Instead I've decided to use methods of joining wood together used in boat building, which will give it a bit of a nautical visual theme.

Thus the name: The stormy element of the Thunderbolt name, combined with the nautical visual theme, evoked images of Shakespeare's "The Tempest", and I instantly knew the name would be perfect for it.

And now for some images! The following are my concept sketches that may or may not reflect the actual placement of components. The crank will likely move farther aft, since it was designed for a 36" inseam and I'm a 34". Doing so will also reduce the amount of material going into this and make it lighter.

Aside from the sketches we have some photos of my work space and available materials. The boards I've got laid out on the floor are a sketch model of approximately what the body will look like when assembled. The pieces are not cut to scale and were simply pulled from the pile based on their approximate sizes. Also while doing this I realized the 2"x2" main bar (I keep wanting to call it the keel) is going to be far too slender for the amount of weight that'll be going on here. It'll need to be a 2x4 instead, or maybe two 2"x4"s bolted together around the horizontal frames, the way the keelson is attached to the keel on a boat. Hmmm I like that idea. 

Without further ado, the pictures from Day 1!


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I like the idea so far; I've little relative experience with woodworking, so I'll have to leave possible help with that for you to people like Woodsmith.  You might see if he's interested in this project by PMing him with a link to the thread. 



In case anyone new to your project would like to see the research thread without digging for it:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/evelotaxii-44876.html


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Neat.

One of the things that frustrates me about the way these forums get laid out is how long it can take to figure out the current state of a project.

"120VDC Permanent Magnet motor. 2.25HP 6200RPM and 18 amps."
"The first prototype has a target goal of 5mph (unassisted by pedaling) with a pedal assisted maximum range of 5 miles."
Single 12v car battery.

And it looks like you're planning to dangle a couple very small children in panniers over the rear wheel? 

"36v with a 20amp motor, which gives a maximum power at the motor of 720w. If I were to use a similar setup, assuming that my motor's max amps is 18a as shown on the label, that would give me 648w at full power. If I go with 48v that'd give me 864w."

Yup, you can take it up to 120v, since that's what it was made for. Of course, that's if you run it the way it was designed, as previously mentioned. Running for the amount of time somebody would use a treadmill, and with active cooling (fan / air ducting).

120v * 18 amps = 2,160 watts.
2,160 watts = 2.90 horsepower - not some approximation, they're equivalent units of power. Before loss due to inefficient conversion from electricity to force, and friction (gears, chains, tires). Based on that 2.25hp figure, that motor itself is 77.7% efficient (peak?). Your 864 watts = 0.87hp, and with the 77.7% motor efficiency, is 0.68hp (plus loss from gearing and tires).

You can get batteries that are cheaper than car batteries, with higher voltage (and lower amps). Tiny 12v lead acid motorcycle batteries might be useful. I'm curious how much you can get away with, say, doubling your amps and halving your volts to achieve the same watts, without melting or snapping something. 

If you are going to put kids in seats at the rear wheel, I encourage you to calculate your center of gravity. People seem to often be of the opinion that with a reverse trike, the CG should be one third of the way from the front wheels to the rear wheel, to equally distribute the weight among all the wheels. I mostly bring this up out of concern for your tip over angle. If your CG is at the rear wheel, tip over angle is 0, and you fall over. If your CG is at your front wheels, your tip over angle is based on the width of your front wheels (angle between vertical CG and contact patch of a front wheel).


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for the reply and all the great info! I guess putting the batteries up front is a good idea after-all? Prototype 1 won't have any back seats of course, that'll be saved for the second prototype which should be a bit better designed.  I suppose I could test it out with panniers full of sand or something? hmmm...

The state of Oregon allows 1000w motors in electric assisted HPVs, so if we keep amps at 18, that means the max voltage I can legally put through this is 55.556v for 1.34hp, or with 77% efficiency is 1.03hp. If we calculate the 77% efficiency into the equation, 72v (6 x 12v) for 997.92 for 1.338hp. My question is, how does this horsepower effect the performance of the vehicle on the road? And would it be worth carrying around 6 batteries?

I am only using the single 12v car battery for the second prototype during initial testing. It will be replaced by more, smaller, and more efficient batteries. When I first started planning this project I had zero funds for the project. That has changed. I'm wondering if the battery pack would be better placed under and slightly forward of the driver's seat. They'll easily be heavier than anything I will put in the back. 

I'd rather not increase amps to save on voltage because that would give me a lot of power for a very short time, since battery charge is measured in amp hours, right?

Also something I've been wondering the last few days is, is amp usage independent of the batteries? Meaning, if the controller is sending 18a to the motor would it be drawing 18a from each battery, or would it divide it up into an equal amount per battery, so that 6 @ 12v would get 3a each? If the former is the case adding more batteries will be considerably more detrimental to performance since I would not be gaining ANY running time off the extra batteries and would be better off using fewer, higher quality batteries.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I really don't know what ~1hp would be like on your vehicle. I look forward to hearing 

I think you've got the electrical stuff pretty confused, which is easy to understand.

Power = watts.

Volts x amps = watts.

More volts, or more amps = more power = go farther and / or faster.

The amount of power in a battery is measured in watt hours. Which is heavily affected by how fast you drain the battery (the faster you drain the battery, the less power (watt hours) you get out of it).

Adding batteries will add run time. I'm pretty sure it's as simple as controller output of 18 amps = input of 3 amps per each of 6 batteries (plus, of course, loss from imperfect efficiency of the controller).

I still don't get the difference between volts and amps. Fortunately, I seem to have pretty much nailed down what I'll use for my project without that understanding.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting idea!

I would be tempted to construct from a hard wood rather then a softwood for the final testable version, lots stronger and less bulky giving more space for you and the batteries.

I don't know what facilities you have but I would prefer to see the main backbone made of bent laminations to form the shape and then the front axle, also in laminations, interleaved for strength.

You will need to ensure the front axle is rigid enough to stop it being knocked out of square with the backbone and to not allow the backbone to twist out of the axle.

Make sure you bond some tight fitting metal sleeves into any holes you add to the wood for the BB and steering kingpins and other structural bolts and fixings.

I would avoid mounting bodies on each side of the rear wheel. Luggage you can balance but unless the bodies are inert or severly restrained they will move and tip you over.

Have you thought of making a tow along two seat, two wheel trailer?
You could put a motor and batteries in the trailer too, if the laws allow, and then have a throttle pot on the drawbar so that it only drives if you pull on it and stops if you push on it. A controller with plug braking would be good for this. That way you can cycle or drive off and your trike won't notice the trailered load so much and the trailer can never push the trike along or over.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback! My "facilities" are nearly nonexistent. All I have are run of the mill hand tools: A set of wrenches, a socket wrench, a handsaw, hacksaw, and jeweler's saw, and a hammer and a workspace consisting of the back of my garage. That's everything. I've got an average layman's skill in woodworking. I chose this material because I have it available already and I've got zero understanding or equipment for welding. 

Laminating bent sheets of wood seems to be how the Zelo linked above was made. I think I could figure out how to make the molds he's bent them over easily enough. My jeweler's saw and some particle board should be able to handle that (if a bit time consuming). What I don't have are the clamps he used to hold everything together on the jig.

http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/2008/09/hetre-ou-ne-pas-etre/
http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/2009/02/cha-avance-bin/
http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/2009/03/du-platre-et-de-la-colle/

I wonder how much an inexpensive jigsaw would cost... then I'd have to learn how to use it hehe...

I suppose the trailer is doable. I hadn't wanted to before because I've seen people tip over with them, but with a tadpole trike, tipping shouldn't be much of an issue. By the time I'm done making the trike, a little surrey to follow it shouldn't a huge technical challenge.

The main reason I wanted them on the trike with me was so that we could ride together as a group. Half the fun of taking the kids places is the journey itself.  Perhaps the kids' seats could be moved forward a bit to be alongside or immediately behind the driver's seat? It would mean making the body wider but would put less strain on the rear wheel and its stays. Alternatively, would horizontal and diagonal braces from the intersection of the seat stay and the chain stay to the fuselage frame stabilize it enough to make placing a seat there doable? Rather than its weight resting on the wheel, it would rest on the frame instead. Well, that'll be for the second prototype anyway. 

I'm also considering a drill press for the holes necessary for the BB and the kingpins but again that's a rather pricey purchase *sigh*

Any tips on how to do the things you've suggested would be greatly appreciated.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

KrisWood said:


> http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/2009/02/cha-avance-bin/


Wow, I really do like the way that was made.



KrisWood said:


> I wonder how much an inexpensive jigsaw would cost... then I'd have to learn how to use it hehe...


$20 at Kmart according to shopping.google.com (Black & Decker 7662).

What's to learn? Draw the lines. Turn it on. Follow just outside the lines with the saw blade.



KrisWood said:


> The main reason I wanted them on the trike with me was so that we could ride together as a group.


Sounds like a healthy design requirement. 



KrisWood said:


> Perhaps the kids' seats could be moved forward a bit to be alongside or immediately behind the driver's seat? It would mean making the body wider but would put less strain on the rear wheel and its stays.


Why are you concerned about making it wider? That's an important consideration for efficiency at highway speeds, but not at 5mph. Could be useful for dodging cars though. You could put them just in front of you with their legs over the front axle.



KrisWood said:


> Alternatively, would horizontal and diagonal braces from the intersection of the seat stay and the chain stay to the fuselage frame stabilize it enough to make placing a seat there doable? Rather than its weight resting on the wheel, it would rest on the frame instead. Well, that'll be for the second prototype anyway.


Our concern is not at all structural, but the potential to tip over. 

TomA gave me this url going into three wheeled vehicle stability at great length: http://americansolarchallenge.org/e...0/Dr_Starr_Stability_Paper_-_Rev_20060811.pdf

Do you know how to calculate a weighted average? 

Take all your weights, and their positions along the vehicle. The position can be anything, like cm from the front axle. So maybe:

48cm 68kg you
86cm 40kg kids
1cm 18kg battery
60cm 5kg motor

For each you multiply the location by the weight, then you divide the total by the total weight, and that gives you the center of gravity. Right?

48 * 68 = 3264
86 * 40 = 3440
1 * 18 = 18
60 * 5 = 300

Total = 7022

Total weight = 68 + 40 + 18 + 5 = 131kg.

Center of gravity = 7022 / 131 = 53.6cm from the front axle. I think.

And ideally, with your layout, you'd want it (assuming your rear axle is 86cm behind your front axle) 28.7cm from your front axle for best balance and stability. One third of the way from the front axle to the rear axle.



KrisWood said:


> I'm also considering a drill press for the holes necessary for the BB and the kingpins but again that's a rather pricey purchase *sigh*


That sounds unnecessarily expensive.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

1/3 the distance from the front to the back would be right about where my body's center of gravity would rest in the seat.  I'll worry about kid seats once I have a fully working prototype.

I understand how a jigsaw works, but how do you use a handheld jigsaw without cutting the table? :-/

Also how do you drill the holes without a drill press? I found a number of decent looking ones on craigslist for under $50 so if I can get one of them I will.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Ok I found a decent drill press on Craigslist for $40, and a name brand jigsaw for the same amount at Home Depot. I suppose I should get some bike tools and some clamps while I'm at it. *sigh*

Which of these is the better one?

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...orURL=ProductAttributeErrorView&distance_1=50


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One of the issues with having your kids with you is that they are going to be a significant proportion of the gross weight. Your weight balance is going to be hugely affected by having or not having your kids there, or by only having one kid or if one of your kids if heavier then the other.

I once tried riding a tadpole trike that had a wheel chair on the front ahead of the front wheels while the 'driver' sat at the back over the rear wheel. It balanced fine while both were on board but was almost unridable without the wheel chair passenger. Also, when the driver got off to attend to the passenger the whole thing tipped forward!

I would prefer the trailer ooption if it were me and then incorporate mirrors to see behind and keep an eye on them and maybe the sort of intercom ystem used by motorbikers and their pillion. You could also add a dvd player to the back of your seat!


Laminations can be made up with lots of cheap G cramps, but you do need lots to get an even pressure.

If you can get hold of a vacuum pump you can make a vacuum bag which will be a lot neater. It may be beyond your needs though.

We can discuss the making processes as you decide what you are hoping to make.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I would prefer the trailer ooption...


Check on the legality of that where you live. It could be illegal to have your kids in a trailer behind you.




Woodsmith said:


> ...with lots of cheap G *cramps*...


WHat are those and where do you get them?


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

While waiting for an opportunity to get my tools and some building materials I'm fiddling with the concept design some more. Today I've been combining elements of the Thunderbolt MkIII (Spitfire RS26) with those of the Zelo.

I'm keeping the proportions of the Thunderbolt while integrating as many woodworking elements of the Zelo as possible. Unfortunately I suspect it's quickly exceeding my ability to manufacture.

I think what I'll do for now is imitate the older Thunderbolt design off the ihpva web site since it's much much simpler and save the curvy version for Prototype 2.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Be careful getting the proportions right for you. Make a mock up around a seat and BB with pedals to work out how long you need it to be and where the wheels will be and the space for turning the front ones without clashing with your hands when steering.
The mock up need not look like a trike at all.

This is how I started working on mine. The seat is laminated from two sheets of hardboard.













toddshotrods said:


> What are those and where do you get them?


Trawling through car boot sales often turns up good ones for little money, otherwise cheap sets of not so good ones from Machinemart and DIY sheds.

However, homemade ones are also good and cheap, so long as they are not CAD drawn and CNCed from billet.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for the tip, I'll definitely keep that in mind. The nice thing about the Thunderbolt design is that the pedals are adjustable, and the steering is via a single tiller so no worries about squishing hands. I made a mockup already to get an idea for dimensions but haven't tried sitting in it yet, I guess I should do that 

Another thing to keep in mind with the Thunderbolt design is that the seat is not part of the trike's frame, but rather made up of its own separate framework which is then bolted to the frame trike's This means that the seat will be constructed in a way that fits the driver and not entirely restricted to the frame proportions.

Still as they say, better to measure twice and cut once. 

Edit: Here's the completed main frame of the older Thunderbolt design if it were made of wood. I think the "keel" (for lack of a better word) may need some thickening, we'll see


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh! I figured out the drivetrain problem!

I've been trying to figure out how to adapt my motor to drive the rear wheel. It occurred to me just now that it's not the axle that turns, but the wheel itself, so I'm really stuck with one of two options;

1: Have a combined drive train with an intermediate axle that combines the torque from both the pedals and the motor and then applies it to the rear wheel via another chain.

2: Build the pulley from the treadmill into the rear wheel's hub and have the motor power it directly! give it a freewheel and it'd operate exactly like the chain pulling gears on a regular bike's rear wheel.

Also I found a decent drill press on Craigslist for $35 and the fellow is willing to deliver it to my home so I'll be able to do some machining I previously wasn't able to do. 

Ugh, it appears the brakes the plans call for are $60 to $100 EACH and I'd have to lathe my own axles...


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

I'll tell you, drill presses are seriously underrated for their machining capabilities, especially in softer materials. Get you a "machining vise" for your drill press and go to town. It probably won't be as accurate as a proper mill machine, but you may be surprised just how much side load you can put on a cutter before either the head or table turns under the cutting forces.

I used my drill press as a mill for a while until I came up with projects that needed a little more accuracy.

As for the motor connection to the chain drive, I think you're barking up the right tree- but I think you may find you need more than one freewheel (not counting the one on the drive wheel). One at the motor that will cause it to disengage if you're ONLY pedaling, and one at the main pedal crank so that the pedals can remain stationary while ONLY under motor power. Otherwise you end up with your pedals always moving, which of course would give you incentive to always put a little human power along with the motor.

Of course keeping the freewheel at the drive wheel is good because then you can reclaim as much kinetic energy as possible, without waste. If you're going to regen type setup though, remove that, and use an electromagnetic clutch disconnect at the motor instead of a freewheel. This way it can be set to disengage when you're just coasting, and then re-engaged when regen is being applied.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

The rear wheel would already have a freewheel in its hub (when riding a standard bike the wheel cannot turn the chain), so only one more would be needed at the pulley so that the pulley could turn the wheel but the wheel could not turn the pulley. The pulley is in turn driven by the belt from the motor.

Anyone know where to get stub axles and wheels that are built to accept them? I really don't want to put out a couple hundred dollars for them :-s


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

KrisWood said:


> 1: Have a combined drive train with an intermediate axle that combines the torque from both the pedals and the motor and then applies it to the rear wheel via another chain.


THis is the best option, as long as you can run the motor at about 80-100RPM max speed at that jackshaft (intermediate axle), so it will match your pedal speeds.

If you look thru my blog or the thread about CrazyBike2 on Endless Sphere, you'll find a few jackshaft ideas plus a little reduction/freewheel device you can make to get the power from the treadmill motor to the main drivetrain. I welded mine, but you could use setscrews or other non-welded means to make yours. 


2: Build the pulley from the treadmill into the rear wheel's hub and have the motor power it directly! give it a freewheel and it'd operate exactly like the chain pulling gears on a regular bike's rear wheel.

This will only work if you are running the motor at the lower RPMs, unless you build a reduction stage for it on a jackshaft between the motor and wheel (this is what the bike drivetrain will do for you), to gear it down. If the motor RPM is too low, then you'd need to gear it up instead. 




> Ugh, it appears the brakes the plans call for are $60 to $100 EACH and I'd have to lathe my own axles...


If the brakes it's using are disc brakes, well, you can easily use regular rim brakes on the single rear wheel, and less easily use them on the front wheels. You could use a steel U fork around the front wheels to mount the rim brakes on, which would also solve your single-ended axle problem, as it would then use a regular one. It would then be possible to mount the kingpin/pivot for the wheel to the inner fork leg, bolting and clamping it on if necessary. Check out the Packrat Workshop for different ways to use U forks on the front wheels.


If you wanted to still use stub axles, you can get light-duty ones from jogger's baby carriages. They are small diameter axles, so they won't take as much weight and may not work for your actual vehicle intended to transport you, kids, cargo, etc, but would work for a prototope testbed. There are some pics in my blog of at least one type; I have another one I can't recall if I posted up or not.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback Amberwolf! I guess I'll go with the intermediate jackshaft after all.  Now if only I had a lathe I could reduce the axle width of the motor to something a bicycle cog would fit on.

By posting on other trike fora I've also learned of another serious flaw in my design; I cannot use wood for the knuckle that holds the axle. It's apparently not strong enough to hold up against the vibrations on the road. I think I'll try it anyway though.

Googling has turned up that the kind of stub axle I need can be found on gokarts and wheelchairs. They are most easily obtained from gokart hobby shops. One person also suggested 14mm BMX hubs as they won't require any modification like a standard 10mm bicycle hub would.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

KrisWood said:


> Thanks for the feedback Amberwolf! I guess I'll go with the intermediate jackshaft after all.  Now if only I had a lathe I could reduce the axle width of the motor to something a bicycle cog would fit on.


Well, the drill press can be used as a lathe if it has really good bearings, but they are not usually meant to take sideloading. So rigging up a centered bottom "table chuck" to clamp the other end of whatever you're going to work with in is a good idea. Making a tool holder is troublesome, but a vice can be used. 




> Googling has turned up that the kind of stub axle I need can be found on gokarts and wheelchairs. They are most easily obtained from gokart hobby shops. One person also suggested 14mm BMX hubs as they won't require any modification like a standard 10mm bicycle hub would.


I am using wheelchair ones on my trailer, from a Quickie brand chair; but they are quick-release so you'd need to lock up the wheels to the bike if you leave it. 
Remember that wheelchairs are not meant for fast bumpy road use, so the axles of most may bend easily under such stress. Normally the fastest they see is walking speed, and on bumpy areas much much slower than that. AussieJester on ES bent many axles on chairs just hand-wheeling them around with just him in it until he got his Quickie, which has titanium axles. 




> By posting on other trike fora I've also learned of another serious flaw in my design; I cannot use wood for the knuckle that holds the axle. It's apparently not strong enough to hold up against the vibrations on the road. I think I'll try it anyway though.


For the knuckle to hold the axle, you might try copying what this guy did:








http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14474&start=0
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14317&p=218969#p218969
Basically just takes the entire seattube including bottom bracket and cranks off a bike, removes the crank with the chainrings on it and replaces it with a blank one at 180degrees so it now lines up with the other side. Cut both to length to bolt thru them to whatever you attach the wheel with (block of aluminum drilled thru would work, instead of the welded stuff he used). Kingpin steering link would be something bolted to the block or the former cranks, sticking back to a pivot point.

If you need more structure to bolt to, leave both the down tube and the seattube attached. Or even leave the top tube and headtube, so you have the whole front triangle. Line up the top tubes from each bike so they are parallel to each other, with seat tube top ends cut to match. Bolt thru both top tubes to clamp them together, then build your wood frame around that. 

If you are not gong to angle the steering joints, but instead keep them vertical (not as nice a steering performance but fine for very low speeds), then keep the head tube and seat tubes in line with each other, and bend a seat post so it can be inserted into both seat tubes half way. Then clamp that down into the seat tubes, and do something similar to the head tubes, and you now have a stronger frame without welding.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

I just had an alternate idea that should work! Check out how the rear dropouts were made here:

http://blog.borisbeaulant.com/2009/05/trois-sur-trois/

By sandwiching sheets of metal between sheets of wood he was able to get both the strength of metal and the aesthetics of wood. I think the same could be done here. Failing that I could cut out sheets of metal to make each face of the knuckle, then bolt them together with L brackets. It'd be fiddly but should be strong enough for testing purposes.

Now I just need a jigsaw strong enough to cut metal.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Use a hacksaw with a 24tpi non-offset blade and you can cut bike tubing and pipe easily enough, and most sheet metal up to 1/8" thick. 

A jigsaw works ok on aluminum (when it doesn't gum up) but sucks on steel, as it usually just rips up the edges if it's thin and wears out the blade too fast if it's thick. 

If you can borrow a circular saw with at least a 7" blade, you can buy reinforced abrasive metal-cutting blades and those make short work of most thicknesses of steel or aluminum. Just set the blade depth for the metal thickness plus a hair, and cut it while clamped down on a scrap board. I use old particle board shelves that people discarded because of dampness or wetness that distorted them; usually enough of it is flat so I can cut off the worst parts and be left with a good stiff clamping surface that can be abused with shallow cuts until it falls apart.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Ooooh good idea on the particle board! I've got tons of old seemingly useless particle board in the garage and basement. I've also got plywood in similar quantities. 

I was ecstatic to discover today that the drill press I got off craigslist today is the same brand as the drill press clamp I use for my jewelry projects. The bolt holes line up perfectly between the two. 

I'm going to buy the jigsaw, some aluminum sheet, bolts, and maybe some wood tomorrow. It'll be interesting figuring out how to carry it on the bike, but a friend of mine found me a trailer for $20 that I'll be picking up too, so maybe I can get that first.

I do have one more question though on the jigsaws. There are three levels of quality to these things; $15 to $30 for cheap ones that'll do fine with wood as long as I don't need detail or heavy duty work, $30 to $70 for budget ones that will do everything I need including cutting aluminum but are still not terribly reliable, and $100 to $150 for the high end ones that do it all.

I'm considering the best of the low end ones at $70, though it's got abysmal reviews, because what it lacks in precision it makes up for in the ability to do heavy duty work. It's not very important to me to have this prototype look good. However if I'm already spending $70 on a low quality machine I may as well spend $100 on the lowest of the high end ones. The trouble then is, if I'm already going overbudget for a high end one, I may as well put out the $150 for the best of them. 

I know very little about power tools, so my question is, is it worth spending extra on a tool that'll last and do an excellent job, or is it better to get something inexpensive that matches my relatively low skill level that can be discarded and / or replaced when money is easier to come by and / or the cheap tool breaks down? Ugh, I'm torn...

In computers it's easy: Always buy name brand for any mission critical components, never skimp or you'll have an expensive paperweight within six months. Never buy the top of the name brand either, because in 3 to 4 months it'll be obsolete. Cars are similar, there are some parts you just don't get the cheapest part on because you'll just be replacing it soon if you do. Do these rules of thumb hold true for power tools too?


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

KrisWood said:


> I was ecstatic to discover today that the drill press I got off craigslist today is the same brand as the drill press clamp I use for my jewelry projects. The bolt holes line up perfectly between the two.


Sometimes synchronicitous technology appears.  This happens fairly frequently to me, in puzzling circumstances--there is a post on my blog by that name for that reason, with an interesting coincidence.



> I'm going to buy the jigsaw, some aluminum sheet, bolts, and maybe some wood tomorrow.


If you are getting the aluminum to sandwich with wood to make structural parts...don't. Get steel, if it's for those knuckles and stuff. Harder to work perhaps but will not stress fracture as it flexes, which is what will happen to the aluminum sheet. Once it fractures and cracks it will no longer be reinforcement within the wood. 





> I do have one more question though on the jigsaws. There are three levels of quality to these things; $15 to $30 for cheap ones that'll do fine with wood as long as I don't need detail or heavy duty work, $30 to $70 for budget ones that will do everything I need including cutting aluminum but are still not terribly reliable, and $100 to $150 for the high end ones that do it all.


The only jigsaw I have is a decades-old mustard-colored Black&Decker basic model. It's only big flaw is the set screw to hold the blade in, which vibrates loose every few minutes in wood, and every few seconds in metal. Since it was used when I got it, I don't know if that was always a problem with it. I think it was less than $5 at a yard sale, ages and ages ago. I'm sure I could fix the set screw problem if it ever bugged me that much, but I rarely need it on the same blade for longer than the set screw holds, anyway. 

Really, the blades probably matter more than the jigsaw itself. Never use cheap blades--either they will just wear quickly or worse they'll break in use and either go flying in bits and pieces, or damage the material you were working on. 



> I'm considering the best of the low end ones at $70, though it's got abysmal reviews, because what it lacks in precision it makes up for in the ability to do heavy duty work. It's not very important to me to have this prototype look good. However if I'm already spending $70 on a low quality machine I may as well spend $100 on the lowest of the high end ones. The trouble then is, if I'm already going overbudget for a high end one, I may as well put out the $150 for the best of them.


Find the ones that are made the best for the price. Trust the reviews by people that actually know how to use their tools (this may not be determinable, but sometimes they give away their lack of understanding in their complaints, and while that doesn't make their complaint less valid, it could be that the problems they had were caused by not knowing how to use the tool. It's a common issue).

Check out the demo versions of the tools on the shelf. Look for broken stuff. If it's broken just sitting there being looked at and handled, it won't hold up during actual use, either.  Make sure the place has a 100% return policy within a time frame that you think will let you determine viability of the tool for your purpose, and doesn't preclude returning it in used or even broken condition if that's what causes you to return it. 

If you see a tool with a lot of functions that is the same price as a tool with only one, probably (but not always) the single-function tool will be better-made, or at the very least better-designed for it's primary use. 


Those rules of thumb probably apply to anything at all. Name brand only matters if you know that brand is not "made in china", meaning cheaply made (regardless of actual source of product). Lots of name brands have crappy stuff. But some have better warranties or return policies than others. For instance, typically you'll have better luck getting something returned or fixed at Sears than Harbor Freight.  The tools might not be any better quality for the price, though.

What I have tried to do when possible is find tools for sale on CL and stuff, look them up online and see if that model/brand was a good one, and then see if it's sold yet. If the price feels high, offer less, and sometimes they'll bargain and you'll get a really nice tool for a much-less-than-retail price. Just make sure you can see it in operation before you actually pay, since there are no warranties with such purchases, usually.  

Usually I can't afford what I do find regardless of how great a deal it is, but sometimes there are some killer deals out there from people giving up a hobby for whatever reason (economy, got married and wife doesn't want to deal with the hobby, moving and doesn't have space, etc). 

More typically I find my best deals at thrift stores or at yard sales. Many thrift stores have no idea what they've got, especially with more unusual tools. I got a 3-jaw puller once for 50 cents that was probably at least a 30 dollar tool, and looked unused.  I got a rusty but functional lathe off freecycle for just the cost of lunch for the person helping me haul it in their truch. A nice drill for nothing that a friend found in the trash at a church, along with a bunch of other stuff probably dumped by someone cleaning out storage sheds. 

Reminds me...check storage facilities around you that rent out sheds and spaces, because lots of people fill up spaces with all their tools and stuff, then don't pay rent on the space, and the facility may throw out all the stuff or sell it cheap to get back some of the rent. I think there's a guy here on DIYEC that cleans out sheds like that for someone and sells the stuff, so maybe he'd be a possible contact. It's mentioned in a thread discussing container homes or something like that, if you can find it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Amberwolf gave a lot of great advice, I'll just add some points on the jigsaw.

If you're going to be cutting various materials, variable speed might be your best friend. I had a variable speed, cheaper-end, Skill jigsaw that I thouroughly abused for years and years cutting everything from wood, to steel (from 20ga to 11ga), and aluminum (from sheet to 1/2" thick). It couldn't cut straight to save my life, but it cut an unbelievable amount of material over those years. By "couldn't cut straight" I mean the blade would always end up cutting on an angle (vertically). I compensated for this by learning what direction the blade was going to drift to, and making sure I was on the oustide of the line for the total thickness of the material - then clean it up with sanders and grinders later.

The variable speed function was the key. The trick to not gumming up the blade in aluminum is slowing it down, and using a bigger toothed (lower tooth count numerically) metal blade. You want to see it throwing relatively big chips, instead of fine powder. You'll make it through the material before you start melting it. If it starts getting hot, gummy, or grabbing the blade, just stop and let it (air) cool for a while.

I was able to rip through steel without issues. The thinnner the metal in steel, the higher you want the tooth count. I used my jig saw on sheetmetal a lot. Enough teeth, and the right speed, it willl cut like butter.

My old skill jigsaw also had an orbital blade motion feature that I used on aluminum as much as wood. It allowed the blade to dig in for the cut but kind of pull away when recycling. I think this let the blade run cooler and more effectively. I thought it would kill the saw, as it was a cheapo brand/model, but it lived a long life. I bought another cheap Skil to replace it (same features), but haven't been doing as much hand fabrication work since. I have some professional grade tools, but buy the cheap, disposable, models sometimes when I am planning to do things with them that aren't really recommended...


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, no luck on jigsaws but I found a lathe on freecycle, waiting to hear back if he still has it or not. I also found the original model of Shopsmith on craigslist for $100, but it's missing the parts to function as anything other than a drill press, probably restorable though. I asked him if he'd be willing to come down on price.

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/1787427225.html

I'll keep my eyes out. Meanwhile I'm still pondering on the new jigsaws. I've asked around and it really comes down to how often I'll be using it. The answer there depends on how successful my trike is, because if it works well I think I'll be building more of them.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

I'd think using the drill press as a lathe will work fine, so long as you set it up right and really don't try to take too much off in each pass. The trick becomes how to rig up the cutting tool.

But, the REAL problem is the 3:1 rule, no more than 3x in length vs 1x the diameter of the stock sticking out of the spindle (drill chuck in this case) without using a center on the tailstock to support the material. This would limit you to 1.5" parts with a 1/2" chuck on the drill press.

There are some really cheap small lathes that may be right for your purpose, but finding them used can be a bit iffy. 

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but the Harbor Freight shop near me is selling their 7x10 mini lathes for $399 on sale right now. It does seem a bit costly for an initial purchase (especially since you'll also buy that much in tooling and setup/precision measuring equipment) but in the long run once you have a lathe you'll find all sorts of things you need it for.

On craigslist, sometimes you find used lathes for quite cheap, including tooling.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm off to Home Depot to get the jigsaw and remaining building materials.  I'll start off with either a 2x2 or a 2" diameter pole. The latter will allow me to follow the instructions more precisely and the former will be more easy to fasten together.

I will probably need thicker boards for the second prototype but for now this will allow me to follow the instructions for the Thunderbolt and make adjustments in the next model. 

I hope to build the main frame today, then start planning the chain and seat stays and the steering knuckles.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, I made a field trip to Home Depot today and discovered a few interesting things.

First, they don't sell sheet metal in thicknesses greater than about 20ga, definitely not something I can use for structural parts. I'll have to find a different source for that.

Second, they don't sell hardwoods in 2x lumber! The closest I could find was some 1.5" diameter hemlock pole that was apparently intended for banisters. It's definitely more sturdy than the 2x2 pine and ceder was. That stuff bent just by holding it, the hemlock poles are so hard I don't think I could bend them if I wanted to.

I also bought the Bosch 1590EVSK jigsaw for when I finally do find a place that sells the sheet metal,  as well as some bits for my drill press.

Now, speaking of the drill press I have a question. How does one use a hole saw on round wood that's the exact same diameter as the saw itself? With a drill bit I'd clamp down the part to be drilled in my drill press clamp and drill right down. With the hole saw though I'm going to end up cutting my clamp (and probably breaking the saw). If I shift the clamp over so that the part I'm sawing is under the saw but the clamp is not, it's gonna vibrate all over the place, I think. Do I need two clamps? If so, I don't see how I'd possibly bolt them to the drill press. *sigh*

The part I'm trying to figure this out for is the cross members. I'm going for the 90 degree ones for simplicity's sake.

http://www.ihpva.org/Projects/PracticalInnovations/fab_2.html

Specifically this step:










The only difference is that 2" stock in wood is a bit smaller than 2" (1.5" diameter in this case so I'm using a 1.5" hole saw instead of 2") but the end result will be about the same.

The only solution I can think of using the tools I have, is to have the clamp off to the side a bit so that it is only halfway under the hole saw. This way the 1.5" diameter of the saw will be just outside the clamp while the rest of it will be within the area secured by the clamp. Hmmm...

I'll be making another field trip to a sheet metal place to get the rest of my materials I guess. I'm also considering recruiting a friend with a truck to help me retrieve one of the many free dead pianos off Craigslist to use for building materials, since they are almost always fruit woods. 

Also while waiting for a train on my journey, I noticed something that will make the drivetrain much simpler! The crank gears are riveted or screwed together, four per gear in a + pattern. I bet I could get a bit for my drill press that can thread four bolt holes into the flywheel of my motor, then screw some crank gears to it. Then there's no lathing required.  All that's left after that is a jackshaft or left-mounted sprockets on the rear wheel.

I'll have some photos to upload tomorrow once I've got stuff cut out!

Edit: ok I lied, my friend just sent me a photo of the wood and jigsaw on my cargo rack, so I have one to upload today!  Here you can see the beginnings of what will be my frame!


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Minor update: I cut out the parts of the main frame this morning and it all lines up perfectly except one small problem. My drill press clamp that I thought would be perfect for my drill press is actually half an inch too large! >.< I'm going to have to bolt a sheet of plywood too the drill press and then bolt the clamp to the plywood, or vis versa. Now if only I had a hand drill to make all these bolt holes lol. Time to hit the hardware store again!


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

You have definitely increased my interest in using something like a 2"x2" beam, maybe steam bent, for a frame. Pretty extreme wood steam bending is apparently possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspGC1_bhHw


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

More awesome wood bending video: http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28507


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

I lost my digital camera, so we'll have to make do with webcam. 










The hole cutter worked flawlessly, I dunno why I let myself get so worried about it  I look forward to something to test my shiny new jigsaw on. I think I'll use that for the stays. 

Next I need to figure out how I'm attaching these parts together since I obviously can't weld them, and they're round so it'll be interesting...


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, my drivetrain ideas aren't going to work unless I can buy either a two sided freewheel or a pre-fabricated jackshaft.

I found a non-profit bikeshop in town that teaches how to fix things in exchange for volunteered fixing time. Yesterday I got to take apart rear wheel hubs, both freewheels and cartridges. I had thought of them previously as a simple cog inside the hub, but really they're very much more one-sided than I'd imagined. There simply is nowhere and no way to "attach" a freewheel to the "other" side of the hub. There's nowhere to put it. I'd have to create it from scratch and lack the tools to do it.

Another idea I'd thought of is rigging up some manner of mechanical friction clutch, but that'll take quite a bit of engineering as well. We'll see. I'll be keeping an eye out for other options, there's got to be a way. hmmm...


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

There are some other ways to do a separate motor and pedal drivetrain; either combining them *before* they get to the wheel, or using a freehub instead of a freewheel, and leaving a single sprocket on the freehub for the motor chain and using a single freewheel for the pedal chain. If you have your whole shifting setup forward of that, using a bare rear hub with cassette, derailer, etc, all mounted on the bike frame forward of the rear wheel (assuming single rear wheel), then you still have a full range of gears for pedalling.

WIth that setup, the motor will never drive the pedals, but if you had to pedal only without motor you would be backdriving the motor and it would be significantly harder to pedal without motor power.

Using a freewheel on a freehub only requires filing out notches so that the freewheel itself will slide on over the splines. Time consuming but possible. If you prefer the "broached" method, there is a member Liveforphysics on Endless Sphere that will broach them for you, if you paypal I think it is $20 to Thud, another ES member. I do not know why that arrangment but there is a thread about dual-freewheels for rightside motor & pedal input to a wheel that describes all this, and another thread about the freewheel broaching process (which is an interesting read with pics and video). 


There are other methods as well, if you are not using the wheel itself as the merge point. 


One more method is more expensive, but possible. There are (fairly rare) rear hubs that have RH threading on one side and LH on the other, unlike a "flip flop" hub that has the same threading on both. With the RH/LH threaded hub, you can buy a "lefty" freewheel for the left side, which will not come unscrewed with applied power, to use for motor input. THen use your normal freewheel or cassette on the right side for pedals. 

The flip-flop hubs are meant either for screw-on disc brakes on left side, or to have a wheel with two different single-speed freewheels with different tooth counts, for trials or other training/racing use, so that to change from one gear to another you just pop the wheel off, flip it over, and put it back on. That way a separate bike is not required for the purpose, nor do you have to have the power-robbing derailer/tensioner/etc on there. But this type does not work for any power input on the left side. It is however the most common type of rear hub with threads on both sides.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

I went to my family reunion today and spent some time talking with an uncle who's a retired cabinet-maker. He was very excited about my project though he suggested investing in a welding setup.

He also helped me design a bending jig on paper that'll work for the laminated layers of wood like the french tadpole I linked earlier. My final version will be using that technique but I'm not investing in the very very expensive marine epoxy until I have the mechanical parts worked out.

In the meanwhile come monday I'm going to start my wood scavenging mission and start cutting out parts and assembling them.  I've got a design, I've got the ability to collect the materials, it's time to get moving again!

Edit: Some googling on jackshafts gave me the answer I needed! A freewheel crank (something I'd never heard of before but it makes perfect sense) turns the crank INTO a jackshaft! The motor chain drives a sprocket on the crank, as do the pedals, and from there the crank chain goes straight to the rear wheel. This way there is one less chain, and the motor cannot turn the pedals! Now to figure out where to get one 

Edit again: Here's an image of a Shimano freewheel crank:









It looks just like a rear hub, really. I wonder, couldn't I just stick pedals on a rear hub and call it a freewheel crank? It'd need some sort of adapter from the axle to the pedals I suppose since they're not the same diameter (or are they?) but since I'm not trying to stick it in a regular bottom bracket I don't see why it wouldn't work. Instead of a bottom bracket it'd be mounted in dropouts.

Edit: I've scanned a more recent concept (it's still not the most recent but the most recent is still in progress) 









Oh hey this solution is quite simple: http://www.electricycle.com/ The only thing it'd need is a freewheel at the motor or jackshaft hmmm... A simpler solution would be to attach a cog to the motor, have a standard freehub without a wheel attached mounted to a jackshaft, then have another cog mounted on the left side of that just like this one except to the hub itself rather than to the spokes. In fact this is the simplest idea I've seen yet!


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

I found an ad on craigslist for a large assortment of leftover wood from a construction project. I called them and arranged to stop by in the morning and I'll pick up whatever I can fit on the rack on the back of my bike. I'll have to get creative with bungees lol.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

KrisWood said:


> He also helped me design a bending jig on paper that'll work for the laminated layers of wood like the french tadpole I linked earlier. My final version will be using that technique but I'm not investing in the very very expensive marine epoxy until I have the mechanical parts worked out.


Why not do steam bending instead of lamination or cutting and reattaching?

I'm really curious how much I can get away with with steam bending:


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I strongly recommend watching the video on steam bending I previously linked to before you cut any more wood: http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28507


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Darxus said:


> I strongly recommend watching the video on steam bending I previously linked to before you cut any more wood: http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28507


Yup, I already watched it, very cool! I will probably experiment with steam bending if possible for later versions. The initial goal of this first prototype build however is just to make something that works, doesn't need to be pretty or even durable.

I currently lack equipment to do steam bending, so for simplicity's sake I'm going to continue with the "bolt together 2x4s and/or plywood" plan.  Once this prototype is done I'll have a much better idea of where all the moving parts need to be in relation to eachother, and can more effectively design a bent wood version.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

KrisWood said:


> I currently lack equipment to do steam bending, so for simplicity's sake I'm going to continue with the "bolt together 2x4s and/or plywood" plan.  Once this prototype is done I'll have a much better idea of where all the moving parts need to be in relation to eachother, and can more effectively design a bent wood version.


You need a few cheap boards or PVC pipe to make a box out of, something you can boil water in (tea pot) and with (hot plate / stove), and something like a hose to connect them. I really think it would be easier than cutting up the wood and trying to fit it back together in a way that will hold you up.

I could be wrong. You haven't mentioned how you're going to connect the parts.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

With bent laminations I'd be using marine epoxy. The effect would be similar to steam bending but stronger and less flexible due to the epoxy.

With 2x4 and plywood I'll be using sturdy bolts to connect everything.

Meanwhile I went to the place that guy was offering free wood. He had a mountain of all sizes of used wood that we dug through for a while, selected a few 2x3 and 2x4 and removed the nails, then he was going to cut them down to a size I could transport on my bike when he had an idea. He went inside and came back out with a large stack of 2x4 about 3ft in length each. He also gave me two large sheets of 1/2" plywood. I thanked him profusely and he told me if I need anything else he's got me covered. 

It was quite a journey getting it all home. I got a 5ft 2x3 since that's the largest piece I'll need and the rest were considerably shorter. This left me with an extra wide load and far more than the 35lbs my rack is rated for. It swayed back and forth causing my bike to zigzag in more of a sine wave than a straight line down the bike path (there's no way I could have fit it on the train that I'd ridden there). Finally I got it home fairly uneventfully, put down the kickstand, got off, and watched my bike pop a wheelie and fall over. I guess it was heavier than I thought 

In any event I've got enough wood now to build a COUPLE 2x4 prototypes, and just need enough bolts to hold everything together. After my scheduled activities for the day I think I'll start building!


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

FWIW, even without a real steam setup, you can bend some wood at least a little in just a hot shower.  I made my first seat for CrazyBike2 that way:
http://electricle.blogspot.com/2009/02/real-seat-mounted-ideas-for-lights-and.html


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Another option is to laminate thick laminations that are pre-bent with heat.

I have bent components just using a heat gun, in the same way a metal worker may bend steel with a torch. The bent components can then be layered up and glued together without the need for a vacuum bag or a strong former to maintain the shape.

That could be an option for the main spine of the trike.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

What I've got in mind is a bit similar to all of the above. I'll worry about it when I get to the production version though. 

In the meanwhile I started cutting out pieces for the 2x4 prototype version today!  Pardon the small picture, the only photographic equipment I have at the moment is my web cam. Next I need to get a wood rasp, some bolts, and a drill bit the same diameter as the bolts so I can assemble these.  I also need to figure out how I'm going to do the crossmember arms.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi everyone! Since my last update I've built the wooden frame, and gathered most of the parts I've needed but the project has been sitting for months while my life gets more and more full of things to keep me busy. Most recently I started a new job, thus ending two years of self employment. Suddenly I have enough income to fund my projects but no time to work on them.

I still want to make a small pedal/electric vehicle though, and so I'm re-evaluating this project in terms of how expensive it would be to have a shop do the work for me. Unfortunately I'm at a complete loss as to where to look and what would be the most cost effective path to take.

If I'm having it built for me I suspect I'd be better off having an aluminum frame made than using my current (heavy / fragile) wooden frame. I also very much like the design of the thunderbolt trikes but am not sure what modifications would need to be made to the design prior to having it built to make it ready for an electric motor. I might also be better off buying a different motor / drive train solution rather than trying to cobble together something out of random spare parts.

I think I'd like to have a limited number of relatively lightweight batteries on board the vehicle and a larger supply in a trailer, so that I could hitch it up for longer trips, or unhitch it when I just want to pedal. I also want to keep costs as low as possible still. Otherwise I'm rather open to different design ideas right now.

Could anyone give some feedback on what's possible and what the ballpark price ranges are for any part of the process? I think most valuable to me would be asking me questions about things that need to be considered so I can add them to my checklist and form a more clear image in my mind of what I'm aiming for.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you thought about buying a small mig welder? You can probably get away with gasless though using gas would be better.

You can then work with thin wall steel tube, either round or square section and save buying in some of the work.



The other option is to buy a worn out or broken KMX recumbent trike to modify.

I did that and built my Ratrike. I only paid scrap price for it as it had been used as a demonstrator to the point where the backbone snapped.









It has a bit of round bunk bed leg to replace the broken square section backbone and a piece from an old clothes rack to make the telescopic flag and light pole.

















I made the mudguards by laminating two bits of hardboard around the wheel.

















Then I did a 25 mile ride on it and nothing failed.
http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=45150.0
It may yet develop a motor and suspension in due course but only if the bits appear free or at the scrap yard to maintain the 'Rat' element of the Ratrike.


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## KrisWood (Apr 24, 2009)

Wow that's pretty cool  how do you find such things though? I certainly haven't seen any on craigslist... Also I don't even have room for my existing tools let alone a welder in my tiny apartment so I'd be more inclined to find someone local who might already have a welder and a garage I could use, or just pay a shop as mentioned earlier. Hmmm...

I think my next step will be to work on the design end of things while accumulating enough spending money (will probably take a couple months) to do the whole thing at once.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

KrisWood said:


> Wow that's pretty cool  how do you find such things though? I certainly haven't seen any on craigslist...


I have been on a cycling forum and got to know some people who do cycling shows. They had a lot of broken KMXs because the early ones were not well built. They were used to introduce people to recumbent triking.
I asked about getting a broken one to play with and they showed me a box full to chose from.




KrisWood said:


> Also I don't even have room for my existing tools let alone a welder in my tiny apartment so I'd be more inclined to find someone local who might already have a welder and a garage I could use, or just pay a shop as mentioned earlier. Hmmm...
> 
> I think my next step will be to work on the design end of things while accumulating enough spending money (will probably take a couple months) to do the whole thing at once.


A welder in a small apartment wouldn't be good, too much of a fire risk.
Maybe find a local college or friendly neighbour who has a welder otherwise it will be down to a professional. 

That is how I started. I am often the 'friendly neighbour' and most of my stuff develops from buying kit for helping others over time.


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