# Sticky  Using a forklift motor, and choosing a good one



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Aren't fork lift motors usually a slower RPM motor that doesn't lend itself to car use?
I have one but the 3500 rpm range isn't the best.
I would think an Advance type motor would be better suited, right out of the box.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Actually just the opposite, being they are wound a little courser (heavier wire and less turns) and in general will have a higher RPM at "X" current when compared to the basic "EV" produced motors. As for the stated 3500 RPM's that's determined by voltage and load on the motor and also in general is a decent sweet spot RPM (3K to 4.5K) for a lot of motors. 

I've seen and built a number of converted lift motors and they do nicely. It's not EVeryone's cup of tea but for those you are under a budget and are handy with tooling it can be a great way to get a drive motor. Shafts and adapting the motor are the biggest issues when compared to motors that have adaptor plates already designed and available. You usually have to advance the brush timing on these motors (where as the ADC's and Warp's are already advanced) for a higher voltage.

As I posted in another thread any data tag that maybe on the motor is just one point of refference and is usually a 1 hour or continuous duty cycle rating. By adding a blower and forced air cooling, the duty cycle can be increased quite a bit.

If we looked at Killacycles L91 motor for example (motors very close to it in a lift) would only be rated at maybe 48 volts and somewhere around 10 HP, where as Bill's stating around 325HP for the two of his L91's. There are actually a number of lift motors that are very close to, or verbatum to the popular EV motors being used, and with that said are diamonds in the rough just screaming for a new life as an EV drive motor.

Hope this helps 
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Thanks for the information.

Baldor is not much help so far, on questions about this motor.

Advance the brushes etc.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

just a quick comment for now. I've located a chinese source of forklift/traction motors called Zibo super motors.

they look to be similar in power ranges but considerably cheaper. 320-460$ but around a 40% retail punishment. still cheap. shipping for a big one for me was quoted at 90$ (haven't bought one yet)
they claim that the Zap zebra truck EVs use their motors.

I asked for the wire thickness to know if they were weaker current wise but they were 25 and 35mm2 for various models which should be enough for quarter mile bursts of 1000A. I have tried to find similar data for other motors but so far no luck. Jim Husted who might well know such data has unwisely decided to be obtuse about it. A decision he will come to regret.

I have some more detailed info on the chinese DC motors, I'll see if I can compile it and post it here later


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Coley

Baldor wouldn't be helpful toward what it'll take to over-volt it as it's not something they do. I'm not sure which Baldor you have so if you'd like to throw me a few pics I'll have a look at it and shoot you some thoughts. In general the larger Baldor's have through bolts that hold the end plates to the housing, and you'll probably need to drill new holes in the comm plate to be able to advance the brushes as the through bolts usually go through channels that are machined in the housing. This is probably going to move the holders far enough over that the field leads won't reach, as they are probably locked into the housing and will need to be extended, so this may not be an easy mod for you to do.

I've never bee a big fan of Baldor motors (way to many reasons to list with the time I have now. I'm not saying you don't have a good EV motor, they just aren't as user friendly or as beefy as most the other motor choices that are out there. Seeing this motor would allow me to have further input.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

here's what I have from Zibo http://www.zev.dk/misc/ZiBoSuperMotors.zip

I might refine it into something more concise at some point. like so many other companies they aren't on top of their information so there are various mistakes. the torque graph for ZC6.3 96V which doesn't exist in the lists of models. two versions with the same name ZC5-72 etc.
in their defense they are much more informative than for instance Advanceddc of USA..

that they don't understand the benefit of concise information on a website once and for all is a mystery to me.. but what can you do..

some guiding plots here of a few of their motors compared to others http://www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif

and a list of motors: http://www.zev.dk/misc/motorchart.htm the current ratings for the zibos are probably not their max continuous, just some odd rated value that I think they arrive at by giving the motor a fixed voltage and then loading the motors more and more until they find the point where the output is the highest for that fixed voltage. probably a legacy from a time where motors were just fed a fixed voltage.

when I asked about the wire thickness she said noone asks for that. which must mean the engineers of the world don't think their systems through. unless I'm wrong in thinking the wire thickness is a vital parameter for the motor's performance


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:
"Seeing this motor would allow me to have further input"

I can email you a picture of it.

The spec plate says:

Spec 29-1584-2137
Frame 2152 75440
HP 8
Volts 72
Amp 98
RPM 3200
Serial #281

It weighs about 160 lbs
The most Amps that it pulls on my gauges (climbing a hill) is 170.
It never gets much more than lukewarm after a 10 mile run.
Pulls my Yugo 40 mph on good flat road in 3rd gear. 41 in 4th.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

you use a 72v controller?
if you want to go faster just feed it a bit more voltage. 
you can think of voltage as that paying for the energy that the torque and rpm demands. if the voltage isn't there to pay then it stops going up in rpm
that's why you can have strong acceleration at low speeds but it loses the will to go at higher speeds.
that how I make sense of it at least and I think it's accurate in this context


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Coley

feel free to send pics anytime and I'll put an eyeball on them. If there is a cover band (and you want to remove it) it'll help me to see the comm and brush leads and such for a better idea as to it's over all health. FWIW, it's hard to say if that's a 1 hour duty cycle or a cont duty cycle on the data tag.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I had the motor clear apart when I got it, to check out all wear. There are 2 brushes at each of 4 locations.

The one thing that concerned me, was that with rotation I need, the brushes are not being pushed against the heavy brass holders.

Instead they are being held in place by the springs. So far in over 900 or so miles, it hasn't been a problem.

I won't have it back on the hoist for more pictures for a while, as the shop has gotten busy again.

I use my hoist as a work bench....adjustable height and all...

I added a photo of my Baldor motor in:

http://www.evalbum.com/ Look up Illinois, Yugo


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

if your batteries are 80Ah (you should write that on the EV album) and say you get about 55% of that in EV use because of Peukert, that's about 210Wh/mile (from the batteries) if you managed to go 15miles on a charge without it limping. if you want to add that to evalbum.


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Since I'm just getting into this I thought I'd ask a question regarding forklift motors.
I just looked at a fork lift. It's rated for 2500lbs and has a 36 volt battery. The nameplate shows 4250 w/o batts and 7200 or so with so about 300lbs of batts. My thought was to buy it and scrap out everything except the motor. Scrap batteries I've been selling have been netting $.20/lb so I could get my money back on the batts and steel/iron and have the motor for free. I couldn't see the motor very well but it looked like there were actually 2, I'm assuming that one for is drive and one for the hydraulics that work the mast. Does this seems right? Also, the donor car would be a 97 Corolla that I just happen to have setting around with no motor or trans. Could the fork lift motor be adequate to motivate a 2300lb curb weight vehicle?
thanks,
Mel


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Mel

A 2500 lb capacity lift will have a decent sized drive motor if it's a sitdown type truck. If it's a stand up type it'll have a smaller motor (probably a 7" diameter 80 lbs). There are people using these 7" motors in lighter conversions but they are usually blower cooled. There are so many types and styles that I'd really need a picture or as good a decription as you could write to have better input. 

I did notice you stated that you have no tranny, which is probably something you're going to need. Going direct drive requires a pretty good sized motor to handle the grunting it's got to do on take off.

As an FYI lifts can have from two to four motors on them as there are twin drive, twin pump, steering pump, ect. Besides pics, knowing what make is it(Hyster, Yale, Clark, ect) would help me I.D. it. If / when you get to the motor removal stage, pics of the brushes and comm, shaft, will allow me to see the basic condition of the motor (best pics can show anyway, lol) I've analized pics from all over the world for people and can tell alot from a pic (or a dozen, hehe)(yeah sometimes I make people take more 8^) (kind of a dark side of the moon thing)
Hope this helps, need more info (take more pics, LMAO)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey mjones,

Buying a forklift, and then selling it for scrap to get the motor for free can work.

That's pretty much what the Forkenswift guy did.

Read his whole posting on Ecomodder. I think it took me three nights to read altogether.

I have my eye on a Nissan forklift motor, but I need to get take it out of the lift to get a better look at it, and the seller is out of town for a few weeks still.


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

I actually do have a trans but it's an auto w/od and requires electronics to operate properly. From what I've read autos aren't the best for conversions.
I've located someone to haul it so I hope to be disassembling it this weekend. It is a Baker FTA-030.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I got another lead on a forklift motor.

This time, it comes with an entire forklift.

I got a call from a guy replying to a Craigslist ad I posted a while ago.

He is a maintenance guy for the local Veterans Administration.

They are getting rid of a Raymond brand 36V stand-on electric forklift.
He says it is in running condition, but does not have batteries.

I am planning on going to look at it on Friday. Maybe I can bring 3 12 volts with me.

I think I can get the whole thing for around $500.

Maybe I could turn the forks into a car lift for my garage!?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ben

Just a quick heads up to never throw more than 12 volts to the motor without the load. I figuer you're talking about Jimmyrigging the lift to test it but wanted to make your you didn't pull the motor and then it with 36 volts as that'd probably put the RPM's at or beyound the limits. The standup will probably have a 7" 80 lbs motor as the drive and with some mods and blower cooling can drive a small conversion. If there is anyway to grab pics (or a motor number) I might be able to shed some light as to what type of shaft it has and to make sure it has a drive end bearing (some plug right into a gearbox and don't have a drive end bearing. It can be overcome but adds to the list of things you'll want / need to do to the motor.
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

So if you buy a 36 volt forklift motor, how can you know the max voltage it will handle? Will any 8 inch 36/48 volt motor work ok with 144 volts? How does the HP change with added voltage?

Thanks for all the info


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

it's my impression that you can in principle feed them any voltage. it's not like a 24V motor will melt if you feed it 36V. volt in principle can't hurt it BUT volt motivates current to appear. the higher voltage the more current will tend to appear and current can destroy a motor. to really understand it you have to understand the physics concept of work. nature has a magical way of ensuring you pay for the work a motor does. work is the force (or torque) applied over a distance. if you apply force and nothing moves you don't have to pay for it. just like a paper weight is free force. that force (or torque in the case of a motor which is just force going in circles) comes from the current and the work done during rotation is paid for with voltage. you can imagine a worker that only does as you pay him. 
this means for instance if the motor is stalled, let's say up against a wall and can't turn even a little voltage will make the current rise a lot because there is no rotation and no work done. you pay voltage and it tries to make work. when it can't the current rises dramatically, in theory infinitely if it weren't for resistance in the wires. but going 100km/h it wants a lot of voltage to maintain a current level. if you don't feed it the current will drop to the level you feed it. nature has a 'magical' way to make sure you get exactly what you pay for. 
so voltage motivates current in a balance with how much work the motor does. slow rpm it's easy to motivate current to appear. high rpm it takes more voltage. 
a motor's limit is a current limit and not a voltage limit BUT there is an indirect voltage limit because the motor can only handle so high an rpm for mechanical reasons.
let's say a motor is rated at 150A continuous and 5000rpm and that at that speed it takes say 100V to keep the current level at 150A. so you might say that 100V is the max for that motor BUT a motor can take more current briefly so let's say you want it to peak up to 450A then you need 300V to keep that level at 5000rpm. that would be 450Ax300V=135kW (or around 150HP after efficiency)
the power formula you can use is

P = T x w = T x Hz x 2 x Pi where T is torque, w is rotational speed in radians per second, Hz is revolutions per second, Pi is 3.1415... 

torque is a direct result of current in the motor and that relationship you can look up in a spec sheet for the motor. a current torque graph (not always available) here are some example curves: http://www.zev.dk/misc/torque-curves.gif

once you have that for your motor you can use the above formula to roughly figure out how much voltage your desired performance will take at the motor's max rpm. it gives you a power value for your chosen current which you can then get voltage from using

P = I x V

where I is current and V is voltage. P is power.

IIRC


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I should perhaps add that of course all units are SI unit, not deranged disgusting retarded US units. torque is newton-meter or Nm. if your data is in ft-lbs google for 'unit conversion' before using the formulae.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,

I went and visited a forklift today at lunch.
It is a Raymond 36V stand-on model.

It is in working condition, but has no battery pack.

It has 2 motors, a 7 inch diameter by 9 inch long motor for the hydrolics, and about a 10 inch motor for the wheels.

It also includes a 36V - 65 amp charger.

It costs $500, and I have to get it out of there my self.

Here are some photos, I will post more later. It's sounding pretty good, but I have no idea how to move this thing! I think it weighs about 4000 lbs!

-Ben


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I have the rest of the photos

Click here to see them.

time for dinner - more info later.

-Ben


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

OK, so how do you tell a series wound motor from other types? Why do some motors have 2 power lugs and some have 4?

Am I just looking for a 36/48 Vdc motor that weighs 100 to 150 lbs?

Thanks
Twilly


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

(Apologies if some of this is repeat, I am on multiple forums and trying to keep this all straight!)

A few weeks back, I set an ad out on CraigsList for a wanted to buy for assorted cheap parts to do a budget electric car conversion.

A few days ago, I got a call from a guy who is selling a forklift.

I got to go take a look at it today at lunch.

It is a Raymond 36V electric stand-on forklift. It is supposedly in working condition, but does not include battery pack.

The lift has a 7" diameter motor for the pumps and a 10" for the drive wheels.

Both motors look to be in good clean condition.

The weird part is that the forklift is at a crash-testing facility. I didn't even know we had one in town!

The sister forklift of this one was involved in a lawsuit. Lawyers sent this one to the facility to run over some crash test dummies and has been there ever since, not worth the cost to ship it back! So, they are selling it because it is just taking up space. (The facility already has a HUGE gas forklift they use for moving SUVs onto there test crash area...)

The unit also includes a 65 amp 36V charger.

The guy is asking $500 for it, including the charger.

It's gotta be worth more than that in scrap.
Besides the motors, it looks like there are all sorts of good levers, cable, hoses, and other bits useful for building things from.

The couple of catches are:

I need to haul it out - they won't deliver.
I have no place to put it right now other than my driveway.
How do I keep it from sinking into my driveway? Might be ok while it is this cold, but it will sink right into the asphalt as soon as it warms up at all.

I still don't know what vehicle I am going to convert. All I know it that it needs to be cheap, have as little rust as one can expect for the area, and must roll well!

I have some photos of the forklift HERE

All I need is $500 and a way to move it, and the forklift is all mine.

Any thoughts?


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I showed the photos of the forklift to my friend last night. He is an engineer for a manlift company.

He told me that the motors look pretty good. They appear to be good quality rebuilds, so they have had the cleaning, bearings re-done, etc.

He said that his company uses 9" Advanced DC motors running at 48 volts for their lift trucks.

He also recognized the charger. I don't remember what brand name he said it was, but he said it was a good one, and that $500 would be a great deal on the charger alone.

He also mentioned that because the motor has those big, open view ports for the brushes, the the motor will need to be protected from the weather with a belly pan or some other cover or enclosure.


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## houseoffubar (Nov 18, 2007)

The price of steel has gone up several hundred percent in just a few years. I would can only assume that if you take a car hauling trailer to pick it up, stop by home, and pull the motor, and controller, then drive straight to a metal re cycler, you will probably be given money for the chassis.

This would require a little for thought, and schedule an extra hour with the tow guys, but could work out pretty smooth. Just my thoughts, Eric


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Twilly
A lift motor can usually be over volted (data tag rating) 2 to 3 times with 120 volts being used alot already. You do have to advance the timing 7 to 10 degrees depending on many, many, factors. I'm still recouping from my trip to Electric Dragin this weekend and hope this answers enough for now 8^)

Ben
Those 570-215 motors are a good motor and Advance still makes a current version (at least beyond that Prestolite version). It's a short 9" motor and if you could strech it out it'd be very comparable to a Warp9 or ADC9. At around 80 lbs (from memory) it's about half their mass though, so you'd need a pair to equal a "standard9". 

The one problem is, that motor has a small commutator and it isn't a "heavy duty version" which had a bigger brush (the only difference). I could get you the HD brushes and brush rings and you could pop-rivit it into the plate. It'd make a huge difference in it's ability to take current. The biggest problem with this motor like I say is the small comm and brushes, as even the HD brush for this motor is the same brush for most the 6.7" motors that Prestolite made. So even though this motor has the 80 lbs mass lower limit met, it's 4 brush setup is mismatched to it's size if one looks at a 6.7 or 7.2" motor that weighs 80 lbs but has a longer comm and 8 brushes. This is a motor that I've been curious about as to how it'll do. It's my opinion that it's better suited for a motorcycle or three wheeler than a car due to it's small comm, I believe it doesn't have a fan either and would have to be blower cooled. My brain is melting fast and I hope this answers enough for now as well 8^)

?
I couldn't find who asked about terminal numbers. Two posted motors only run one direction and are pump motors, unless they are a per mag which switching the cables would make it reverse. 4 studded motors are usually drive motors (they do have 4 term'd pump motors, but rare and are just motors that could have been used for either a CW or CCW rotaion pump. Series wound motors have thick, corse, field windings. If you see thin wire, it's a sep-ex or compound wound motor.


Dan
Not to air this publicly but as you know, I've stopped replying to your stuff as I tierd of the insults and your know-it-all attitude on the EVDL. With that said, but being this is a thread I started, I felt I had to warn people that just about EVerything you stated is incorrect IMO. I've inserted some responses to your statements but won't make a habit of responding, as I have so many better things to do (in fact I have emails waiting right now) to those who also IMO are a better investment of my time like Tilly and Ben. I caution all to take Dans info with a grain of salt. Anyway, here's my take:

>>it's my impression that you can in principle feed them any voltage. 

False: Motor's are limited (in huge ways) by the number of commutator bars they have, the higher the bar count the higher the voltage it can handle without arcing. Higher voltage rated motors also have field coils with smaller wire but more turns, and are the only differences between some of ADC's 36 vs 72 volt rated motors.

>>it's not like a 24V motor will melt if you feed it 36V. 

This is true, but it might over-rev it to death, if it's not under load. Voltage creates speed, current is torque.

>>volts in principle can't hurt it BUT volt motivates current to appear. 

Incorrect, 100 amps at 48 volts is the same work as 48 amps at 100 volts, both equal 4800 watts (correct me if I'm wrong 8^) General rule of thumb is volts up, current down, same work. The flashovers that the racers see is caused at least in huge ways by excessive voltage. So a little extra won't kill it but a lot will, at the very least it'll make it scream 8^o 

>>the higher voltage the more current will tend to appear and current can destroy a motor. 

Current is heat, and heat's a motors enemy.

>>to really understand it you have to understand the physics concept of work. nature has a magical way of ensuring you pay for the work a motor does. work is the force (or torque) applied over a distance. if you apply force and nothing moves you don't have to pay for it. just like a paper weight is free force. that force (or torque in the case of a motor which is just force going in circles) comes from the current and the work done during rotation is paid for with voltage. you can imagine a worker that only does as you pay him. 
this means for instance if the motor is stalled, let's say up against a wall and can't turn even a little voltage will make the current rise a lot because there is no rotation and no work done. you pay voltage and it tries to make work.


I want Dan to take a forklift that's against a wall and push it with all his might for 5 minutes, and then tell me no work was done! Work was done, it just all went to heat. A typical lift controller is 36 volts at 400 amps (36 X 48 = 14400 watts) so the lift was pushing the wall with 14.4 HP (using 1000 watts per HP to account for losses) and with a lifts gear ratio there would be a lot of torque, but just not enough to bunny hop a curb with a 5000 lbs forklift. Being the current would sit on an umoving comm bar, the result would be a melted comm bar. Stick a copper bar across 36 volts and see how long it takes to heat that puppy up, this is what happens to a stalled, brushed motor.

Sorry for the delay in getting this out but I got to go play and have some fun over the weekend and didn't have usual internet access and or time for emails (let alone writing about the EVent). I hope this reads well as I am tired (and a bit grumpy maybe, because of it) as my volt meter is now reading 100 DOD, LMAO

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

11kw rated 9.5" $485 US


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

Jim, work in this context is a scientific concept and defined exactly as I say. it's not the common meaning of work. if the motor isn't turning no work is being done no matter how much energy is poured into it in the form of heat in the wires from the current. work is force times distance (in the force direction). if the distance is zero so is the work.


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Well, I got the Baker FTA-030. Lot's of fun loading/unloading as the rear wheels were just on the edge of the ramps. I got both motors pulled, no label on the pump motor and it's really nasty from battery stuff but it looks like it'll clean up, 8" dia 12-13" long and an internal spline output. Drive motor is a little bigger and has a label that reads Type: 22-51, P/N 113149, splined shaft on output and brake on the other end. Both worked as we were able to drive it and operate the lift. I'll post pics once I get them cleaned up.
I called a nearby scrap metal yard and they are paying $8/100lb for long iron.
Without batts it weighs 4600lbs. Batteries are probably around 2400lbs and I can get $10-$15/100lb for them. So it's looks like I might be able to get around $700 for it scrap and I paid $350 plus $100 to haul it. I'll have enough profit to buy a transmission for the Corolla.
I kept all the wiring and control stuff other than the hydraulic controls. I'll probably need to get a wiring diagram if I use drive the controls.
Label on the lift showed it to be a 48v unit but it only had 18ea 2v batts. Oh, I got the charger too but it's 3 phase and does me no good, but I have 2 36v golf cart chargers left from an old cart we had.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

maybe you can ebay the charger. or open it and see what kind of electronics is inside it


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Mjones
That 113149 sounds like the heavy duty version of a 9044-AW2 Otis / Baker motor and would be a good motor. The pump motor might actually be the same one that Forkenswift used for his car as well, so you might have two usable motors there. It's been a long time since I've built these motors and my brains not as good as it used to be (plus I'm not at the shop) but I do recognize the number. I'll be able to tell you more once you've posted pics. I do think you just found a little diamond in the rough though, so congrats on what should be a good find.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Dan,
If I have time tomorrow I will look at the charger to see if it has anything of value in it. Copper is still up. I already have a bunch of SCRs and some Bipolar transistors I pulled from some UPSs I scrapped but I doubt this thing has anything that sophisticated.

Jim,
Thanks for the info. I knew even if the motors weren't good for EV I could scrap this thing out and make a few $. Now it looks like I might be able to build 2. I'll keep my eye out for another donor. I posted the batteries on Otherpower.com which is an AE site geared towards the DIYer. I'll probably set on them for a while as I might need them eventually. 6 more and I would have a nice set up for a back-up/off-grid or grid tie system.

I got the mast off of this thing and loaded on my trailer for an early run to scrap tomorrow, then I can load the rolling chassis and do the same. My poor little single axle wouldn't haul it all at once. It was a real mess getting the motors out of there, spilled hydro oil everywhere.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Welcome to my world, heheh


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey MJones,

Got any photos of taking the forklift apart, or advice?

Looks like I am going to be doing one sometime soon.


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Ben,
I didn't take any pics, sorry but this thing was really nasty, I wouldn't get my digital near it.
As for advice, these things are heavy, mine without batts was still 4600lbs thats like having a Miata that weighs as much as a Suburban so make sure you have it stabilized if you have to do anything underneath it. I used my jack stands and a safety block on the side I was working. I had no other way to get at the motor hardware and wiring than from under it and I only put my arms under it. I used a come-a-long attached to the roll cage and a nylon strap around the motor to hold it while removing the last bolts and to lower it. If you have to remove any hydraulic lines, make sure the mast is at it's lowest position then drain the resovoir. Have a large pan available to catch the oil and kitty litter to soak up what spills - BECAUSE IT WILL. I used most of a 50lb bag of stuff from the auto parts store. To my amazement after pulling the plug the catch pan filled and overflowed within 30 seconds, hastily I plugged it back and got another pan only to get about another quart. There was already 1 gal or more on the floor.
I guess one thing I didn't do that I wish I had was label every wire that I disconnected. Now I have to find a diagram if I want to use the controls on my car.
I took the mast off and hauled it to the scrap yard seperately from the chassis so that I didn't have to rent another trailer. I might have been able to do it completely assembled minus the motors and batts with my single axle but didn't want to risk it. Each load was about 2100lbs. I'm not sure on a stand-up if the mast is removable. Mine was tricky and again I used the come-a-long and the cage to lower it onto my trailer and I attached safety chains back to the chassis just in case it got away. The lower part of the mast pivoted around the drive axle and had 2 bolts on each side much like a connecting rod or main cap in an ICE. They were hard to get at with the socket and I ended up torching off the top ones. NOTE: When using a torch around spilled hydraulic fluid have a fire extinguisher handy! Don't ask me how I know. What doesn't kill us or burn our shop down makes us smarter.
Oh, if there is any big metal plate thick enough to make an adapter for the motor to trans save it even if you have to torch it. Luckily the control cover was 5/16" and 18"X24" on mine.

Jim,
I scored again. I'm a UPS Service Tech and often do battery replacements. I had a job yesterday where I had to change 10 Power PRC12150S 12v AGMs. I didn't have much hope of them being anything but scrap lead since they are OCT 2001 date code, but to my surprise they all tested 930 - 1100 cold cranking amps with my Midtronic Digital Analizer. These things are near if not over 100lbs each so I probably won't be able to do more than 48v. I figure I can put 3 behind the back seat which would be like 2 average size adults and at least 1 under the hood, maybe 2 if I can run these motors to 60v. I believe the curb weight on the 97 Corolla is 2300 and gross is 3400 so I should be ok.

thaks,
mel


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Got my forklift today. Had fun going under low bridges to get it too. Cleared the one by only about an inch

I pulled out the Optima batts from my motorcycle and hooked them up to the forklift - it works!

Things pump and turn and go up and down. Even the horn works on it.

I also feel like a moron because I now noticed that there are 3 motors in it. I thought there were only two!

How do I decide which one will be best to use for my car conversion? (keep in mind I don't have the donor car yet)

I suppose I have to pull all three off, see what they have for shafts, maybe take them apart and examine the insides.

I could measure and weigh them once they are off too.

I have more pix now HERE - just scroll down to the bottom for the new ones


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Pulling them off will make for better pics 8^) In fact once off pull the cover bands on the commutator side so I can eyeball the guts as well. Placing a tape measure also aids in sizing (hey EVen after 26 years I haven't seen them all 8^) and we'll have a look at what you found.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

assuming that most such DC motors are similar technology you can perhaps go by size. people typically use from 6.7" diameter up to 9" and about 35cm long weighing 40-65kg. if you have an 8 incher on there that's probably a good size. larger is stronger naturally but at a point it becomes overkill and the controller has to be able to follow.
since they are all nominally 36v motors they are probably good for the ~100v controllers. if it were 96v motors they would perhaps need a higher voltage controller to properly motivate at the higher speeds. 

make a list of the 3 motors with their measurements.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks guys,

I will start pulling these when I get a chance - supposed to get a blizzard later.

Wish I had a pole barn to work in instead of my driveway. (It's too tall to fit in my garage!)

Quick safety question - The is no battery pack, so no electrical concerns there, but this thing is hydraulic. Any concerns about me accidently disconnecting something and shooting high pressure oil or anything like that?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

If the lifting arms are down, I would think that you would not have a pressure problem.
One way to find out is move all the hydraulic levers and if nothing moves, you should be ready for the drain pans and a couple bags of OIL DRY.

Just crack loose each fitting and then let them drain.

Some machines (injection presses) that I have had, had accumulator tanks a that store pressure. I don't think fork lifts have them.


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## ForkenSwift (Feb 3, 2008)

BenNelson said:


> (It's too tall to fit in my garage!)
















> Quick safety question - The is no battery pack, so no electrical concerns there


Depending on how long ago you disconnected the pack, there may still be a lot of juice stored in the controller's capacitors. (Ask me how I learned this.)


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Darn it Darin! Now I have to go replicate every photo you have ever taken!

I did get a look at the controller today. When I looked at the battery charger, there was mention of capacitors, which made me think twice about poking at the forklift controller.

I have some new photos on my mac page

The sixth photo down on the right-hand column shows the controller. Anything in there look familiar to you all? I recognize contactors and the fiberglass insulation a mouse was using for a winter home, but I am not sure what else is in there.

I also have a couple photos a a honkin motor still in a forklift that belongs to that guy with the Miata. Sorry, best photos I could get without spending hours to remove first. For scale, my thumb to pinky is just under 8 inches.


I also got to take a look at the forklift charger. It appears that I can change it from 480 Volts to 220 Volts AC source power by moving a jumper and a couple wires. It also shows which wires you have to move where to increase or decrease the output amperage. However it doesn't list what that power is, it just has a lower to higher scale.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jim,

Do you know anything about this motor?
http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWeb/Home/forklift_files/DSC05620.jpg

It is the drive motor on a Nissan CUB01L15S

The owner is going to be scrapping whats left of this forklift on Monday. I have no idea what the condition of the motor is - only that it's really dirty and very big.

Is this thing even overkill?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ben

I looked at the photo before really reading the post and thought, that's a Nippon I believe made by Miedenshaw (something like that). Both Nippon and Toyota motors (older ones like these) were really well made, better than any of the state side motors (Prestolite, GE, ADC, ect.) EVerything about them was made to be better than needed which is why I saw few of these and they were fairly popular. Unless this one was abused you should find good parts inside 8^)

As is life not all can be painted with rosie colors and being they were made with good materials parts are going to be higher for this motor than it's cheaper brotheren and also harder to find. There won't be an easy to press in shaft as well so make sure you can mate to it before getting to involved.

The other issue is it's size as it looks like it might be on the small side but even with the hand span it's hard to judge it's size Diameter would help also.
Anyway, that might be another little diamond dug from the dust (EVen if it's not a 14 carot rock, lol 8^)
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ben

I didn't finish your post before I sent mine  I just got a measuring tape and spanded my hand and then looked at your pic and well depending on where your hand is it could be on the small side to wow you just found a bitchen motor I doubt it's big enough to be overkill and might just be a Goldie Locks just right 14 carot rock of a motor More data / pics needed
Cya
Jim


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

On the subject of forklift motors.

How can I tell if a motor is a series wound or shunt wound by looking at it.

I can find all sorts of technical data on both types, but nothing on just how to visually identify one versus the other.

Also, why do some motors have two power connections, and some have four?


Can you also clear up rotation direction vs polarity? I believe that series wound spin the same direction, no matter which polarity the power source is. Is that correct?


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

I was given a Raymond AC forklift motor rated at 36V. Its a pretty beefy (maybe 150-200lbs) induction motor with a neat encoder. I guess motors over 600A disrupt Hall effect encoders so this motor has a special encoder that doesn't care about magnetic fields. I can post some pics of it. Its rated at 36v 12.4KW. 
Is that enough to propel a car at a decent speed? Is it possible to increase the voltage and not harm the motor? This thread has been fairly DC centered so I was curious about using this AC forklift motor.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

An AC forklift motor! I want to hear more!

Sounds like the start of an inexpensive AC system!


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

MM, sounds like plenty. but do you have a controller for it?


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I have the smallest motor off the forklift. It is the one that ran the power steering. It has a female connection rather than a male shaft. Weighs 45 lbs.

I am going to take it apart to look at the insides - see how it works and what condition it is in.

Which end do I take off?

On one end is the viewing ports thru which I can see the brushes and commutator. (1st pic)

On the other end is the flange where the power steering pump attached.



















No, this is NOT the motor I am planning on using for the electric car. But it is smaller and easier to handle, and no big deal if I screw something up and can't get it back together.

Where do I start?!?!?



PS - My wife LOVES me having greasy motors on the kitchen counter.


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

Here are some pics. You can see the encoder unit built into the upper bearing with the wire hanging out. About controllers I contacted Kelly to see if their controller could support this motor. They need a Hall Effect output from the motor which is a 3 position sensor. My encoder is only a 2 position sensor. So I looked into the more expensive Curtis AC controllers. Those have a 2 position encoder input so it looks like the Curtis controller will work. 

The motor seems to have decent KW (12.4) for the rated voltage (36V). How should I go about over-voltage testing? I know DC motors can operate over a wide range of voltages but is the same true for AC? The two wires hanging out of the windings looks like a temp sensor of some sort. Maybe that can help.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

WOW - That motor looks impressive!

I am assuming that the three leads of cable on that means it's a three-phase AC motor.

Nothing in the photos for scale, but that thing looks big!


I just got the end off my big hydraulic pump motor.

It has 6 pairs of brushes and looks good as far as I can tell. (Of course this is the first time I have ever opened a big DC motor)

Too bad it doesn't have a real shaft on it.


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

It has a 9-10" diameter. In the first pic there is a manual transmission behind the rotor for reference.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, now that I got the one end off, how do I get the OTHER end off?











Inside, you can see the "slotted" internal drive shaft. Looks like there is some sort of bearing right there too.

I removed the bolts that appear to hold the end plate in. How do I get this end off? Is anything going to fall apart on me as I try?

Mostly I want to be able to see inside, how the wiring works, and the general condition in there.

What's the trick to this thing?


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

That hammer in the background is NOT the answer to your question..


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Uh, yeah, that's not even a real hammer.

That's my wife's "hang a picture on the wall" hammer.

My real hammers are in the garage, which I can't even see from the house right now because of the snow!


Come on, just a few gentle hammer taps....


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

Dang, where to start, lol.

Ben, hope you got the private info but I'll post it here as to series vs shunt wound. Shunt wound, sepex use a small wire with lots of turns on the field coils, series wound have thick flat wire with just a few turns (8 to 14 as an example). Look at the coils pics at my site for an idea of what I'm talking about as they are series. I'll try and get some field pics up showing the differences but my plate's super full right now and just keeping up with emails is a bit tough as I'm having to put them off till evening home time.

Marshall
That's a little different from the ones I've seen (BT's and Crowns) but I'm sure is the same Mgf (Danahur?) and as was stated is tough to judge size (the two types I've seen are about 80 lbs) and rated at 4.8 KW at 25 and 35 volts. You could have a controller designed or replaced to up the voltage, but this gets away from my area of "true" knowlege (for now anyway 8^) I've seen about a dozen of these AC motors now and the encoder bearing is the main cause of failure in ones I've done with misc issues with the others.

Ben
That steer (or auxilery) motor is compound wound (looks like a 570-436) won'y be a wise drive motor choice and probably won't take a super high voltage (so it could be used in an EV) but I have wondered just how high of a voltage it would take, so keep me posted if you play with it.
Marshall
(I'm just going down the list here, LMAO) Wayland tells me that those two wires are a rotor locator sensor (and he teaches Crowns AC class)(But my customer Winco foods tells me it's just a heat sensor and that he's had to replace one with a glue on the outside fix kit) just another one of those conflicting reports I've had and haven't had the time or need to look into it. Being they both plug into the same plug it's not the most user friendly bearing replacement, lol. Being you'll end up with a non-OEM setup, think about sepperating those pairs so the next encoder change out is easier (On lifts these are only lasting a couple of years and they go bad, from what I'm seeing).

Ben
That pump motor looks like a 570-827 and is also a compound wound motor. Hate to be the barer of bad news, but those Porter Peerless motors have always had brush arcing issues 8^( They are setup to have adjustable brush timing (set screws on the side of the housing) and they will make huge torque (I still have a metal place that swears by that motor)(Newer lifts just don't compare to the old Raymonds they run. As a motor guy though, those motors are like my anti-christ, LMAO. As you've seen the shaft sucks for EV use and they are a bitch to get out and although you could install a modified 570-823 drive motor shaft (maybe) it'd a fair amount of work (not to mention lots of hairy butt cheek clinching while trying to press that shaft out at 40/50 ton, LMAO. Yeah don't sound like much to some but try it on an armature 8^o Also that DE plate will tap right off as the plate is not locking the bearing. I advise people to use a deadblow and not steel hammers FWIW, but hey knock yourself out. I do have a motor teardown list at my site upper right hand which you might find useful (if you haven't finished by now 8^)

Well, that should be it.
Hope this helps

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jim,

One more simple question.

On my large pump motor, now that I have the bolts out of it that hold everything together, how do I get the armature out?

I tap lightly on the commutator end and drive everything out the driveshaft end?

I have read your Engine Repair 101, but this is the first time I have done anything like this before!

-Ben


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ben

I like to remove the armature and DE plate together as a unit (most motors have fans that won't let the armature side toward the comm end anyways.
Remove the four DE plate bolts, and take a screwdriver and wedge it between the plate and the housing. This will pry it loose, but be careful as the plate might just slip off the bearing on you at this point. I use a bearing driver to dead blow the armature out of the CE plate (steel hammers don't offer the force needed and damage the shaft (don't bang on that centering hole on the shaft).

Even though this motor does not have a fan the brush ring will prevent it from coming out Comm end unless you loosen the ring up and pull it out first.
That should do it for you. Let me know if it's decided to fight you and you need further assistance 8^)
Cya
Jim


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

API Elmo AB Art is what the label has for manufacturer. We just got some AC Miles vehicles in with the AC Curtis Inverter. Ill have to look them over.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

From the pics they are an exact look-a-like to the Danaher(Danahurs)(Not at the shop right now) that I've seen. Raymond likes to "private brand" their stuff so it might just be a way for them to claim that motor but it's still the same place that's doing all the rest of the lift stuff I've seen, then again they may have just copied it to a larger motor, as this one is bigger than any I've seen to date. I've actually got an 80 lbs AC Crown motorn 35 volt 4.8 KW in that John Wayland got a hold of I'll work up for him, but he's looking to use his as a lawn tractor or some other small project but I haven't had time to play with his yet as it's a backburner motor for when I got nothing better to do and something I'll do for John for all he's done for me.

Anyway, keep us posted as you move along.
Cya
Jim Husted


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## Pb Cruiser (Oct 29, 2007)

I found out through an electric motor shop that the lift truck industry is gradually getting away from DC drives in favor of AC. This may be a boon for the DIYer in the near future. The owner didn't speak specifically of any one manufacturer, though.


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

What kinds of things are you planning on doing to John W's motor? At my dads work where I got this motor the warehouse manager says he will never go back to DC. Boon for diy? Worked out pretty well for me.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

As to lifts going to AC, they are in big ways, but the smaller units still being DC as a mainstay. To be honest though, I've seen a much bigger % of failed motors (some under warranty) than what most would think (or had been claimed of it's higher performance and maintenence free atributes).
In fact John will be repairing yet another one tomorrow that is a brand new lift and under warranty and said he'll let me know what he finds out.

These have all been motors from units that are just two or three years old, which is about the same as brushed motors longevity (where I start to see them).
The encoder bearing costs about the same as a brush set and regular bearings and I don't have to turn a commutator so it's tit for tat for me with less work 8^)
Being I'm a DC guy or at least born one, take my opinion for what it's worth, but at least for forklifts I'm not overly impressed. There are some nice features but even the sep-ex DC driven lifts offer that if that model has the feature and they regen well at lift voltages. The biggest issue in using these AC units will be for someone to built the inverter that will match these motors which then falls in the hands of the controller based people here 8^)
Anyway, just some feedback from someone who has seen both sides of the fence (looking at just motor longevity). I actually still work on DC motors for lifts that were built in the 60's at some distributions if you can believe that 8^) Being we are already seeing them as junkers, it tells me many of these are but high priced throw away lifts, blows my mind that there are as many out there as there are already.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

*Another forklift motor*










I was able to get the drive motor out of my forktruck today.

This one actually has a driveshaft on it. Looks pretty good after cleaning off the grease and removing the gear on it.

I haven't a chance to open it up yet, but it appears to have 4 brushes. It weighs just under 90 lbs.
The outside diameter of the housing is 10", but it is only about 10" long as well.

Obviously, having a real drive shaft would make this MUCH easier to hook up to a transmission! But is it big enough? Keep in mind that I want to do a small/light vehicle, something like a Metro or Rabbit.

I am still planning on pulling the forklift drive motor off of a larger forklift another guy has. Hard to tell much about that motor while it is still attached. Looks pretty big though. I am hoping to have an update on that in a few days.

More photos at my photo page 2


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Another forklift motor*

from the weight I would guess it could propel a small car fine. but as you yourself remark it might be easier with a standard motor. worst case, if you can sell the truck as scrap and recover your cost you can always look at it as a learning experience. also some of the other motors might have a more regular shaft


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Another forklift motor*

well I see the gear comes off. then I figure a machinist should be able to fit a hub on it that would fit the clutchplate.


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## GuyW (Jan 18, 2008)

BenNelson said:


> Got my forklift today. Had fun going under low bridges to get it too. Cleared the one by only about an inch...


Just a note of caution:

I worked on a case where a commercial tow truck was hauling a forklift. By law, the driver was required to measure the height of the load.

He didn't.

He hit a freeway bridge at 70 mph or so.

Large chunks of cast steel etc came loose.

Following driver hit debris at 70 mph or so.

Large chunk of cast steel came thru the windshield and hit driver in chest.

It was amazing that he lived....


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow, It's always sad to hear a story like that.

My driver had to go under a 14 foot and then 12'2" bridge before getting to the highway.

If he could get under those, the freeway is no problem.


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

Here are some more pics with the AC forklift motor lined up with a BMW 3 series differential. I think direct drive would be very nice. What do you guys think? The diff help to see the size of the motor.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

what's the ratio of the diff? direct drive can be tough on the motor. it's equivalent to starting in about 4th gear and especially nasty up hill


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## MarshallMiller (Feb 6, 2008)

That particular diff is a 3.73. I like the BMW differentials because they used the same diff on all their cars, but changed the ring and pinion. So there is a wide selection of gear ratios, From 2.79 to 5.44. AC is supposed to be a better choice for direct drive due to the wider power band.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I would think a 4:50 or so (if available) would be a better ratio.

One thing also, about direct drive. No neutral to test the motor, unless the car is on a hoist or stands. 
And in an emergency, no neutral to jump into if the controller goes wide open.

THAT can be dangerous and scary.....

When looking to diagnose a vibration, it is nice to be able to just run the motor by itself or drop out of gear and let the car coast to see if the vibration is a rear end or tire problem.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm sure that many rear end ratios do exist for Beemers. You would probably have to buy a gear set from a company that sells parts for race cars. A nice gear ratio might be in the 4.88 or even 5.13:1 range. That would be nice and LOW. I don't know if a Beemer differential housing is big engough to go that low though... Oh heck. My Rx2 diff was big enough to run a 4.88. A Beemer should be capable of that.


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## WeeDubb (Feb 4, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> I'm sure that many rear end ratios do exist for Beemers. You would probably have to buy a gear set from a company that sells parts for race cars. A nice gear ratio might be in the 4.88 or even 5.13:1 range. That would be nice and LOW. I don't know if a Beemer differential housing is big engough to go that low though... Oh heck. My Rx2 diff was big enough to run a 4.88. A Beemer should be capable of that.


rotaries ftw! hahaha....i drive a rotary too . too bad they dont get that great gas mileage ! that is why i am converting an ice car to electric  /end rant


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

WeeDubb said:


> rotaries ftw! hahaha....i drive a rotary too . too bad they dont get that great gas mileage ! that is why i am converting an ice car to electric  /end rant


heh, yeah, they tend to burn a little dirty too. The car in my avitar is the Rx2 in question, and no, that is not tire smoke.


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Got some pics of the motors from the Baker. DE plate on the drive motor has a chunk broken out of it. Hope I can still use it. The pump motor's armature is stuck in the BE plate bearing so I couldn't get it out. Also a pic of the controller but I'll need a wiring diagram so I can determine which part controlled the drive motor.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey MJ

That's the motor I thought it'd be, and they were subject to DE plate breakage like that from hitting the skid plates when loading / unloading and is kind of a bummer although nothing overly so, hopefully. That pump motor is also a nice find and would do another conversion, although the shaft's a bit of a bugger (although I think that's the same motor Forkenswift used). All and all, the drive motor looks good from the pics I saw.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Jim,
I was already thinking about using the pump motor in a built from scratch vehicle. I did save the pump input shaft, but it looks a bit small. It looks like there is an insert in the end of the armature shaft that might be removable. I have a rear axle from a Toyota pickup and a manual trans from a Supra, they also used it in the pickups. I can build a frame from 6" "C" purling, welding the open sides so it forms a box, very light weight and really strong. Just need to find a front end/steering donor. I also have all the suspension from that Supra. 4 wheel Independent with rack and pinion but it might end a bit heavy for the pump motor. As a utility vehicle I could probably keep the total weight under 2000lbs.
BTW you obviously have experience with lift trucks. Do you have or can you point me in the right direction to find, the wiring diagram for the Baker? I will see what I can google up later.
thanks,
mel


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## ForkenSwift (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi Mel 

Jim's right - that pump motor is the same one we've got in the ForkenSwift. (Note it's only got 2 terminals, so it's wired to spin in one direction - you may have to reverse the field connections internally to get it to go the proper way for your application).

We did the same thing you're talking about: which is we had the male pump shaft welded into one half of a Lovejoy connector to make our coupler:



Above: the pic shows the motor's rotor & me holding the newly made 1/2 lovejoy. More pics of the coupler set up here. It's probably not super strong, but then our car isn't very powerful with its 48v/225a golf cart controller.

The control panel you posted is also pretty close to the one we pulled out of our Baker lift. We had an extra pump motor, so had a few more contactors on ours. You can still get an EV-1 controller manual/wiring schematic. I'll see if I can dig up the link.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Mel

I'm actually "not" a lift mechanic (although I've worked on them a little) but a motor tech. Looks like Darin can shed somelight for the wiring diagram though, so hopefully that will help. That spline coupler will be the weak link though, as you boys move up in volts / current as I see lots of those splines worn out (just being used as pump motors). It is a simple way (maybe best way) to adapt that shaft for use in an EV though. Anyway, you did find two very usable lift motors to use. On a fun note, That drive motor and that pump motor have the same armature (minus the shafts) 8^) and you could install the drive armature into that pump motor with (maybe no to little mods needed (if that helps).
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks for the info and another ? What is the approx HP rating on these motors?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

How many volts and amps can you throw at them? LMAO 8^o
These armatures have a larger bar count, the fields have plenty of turns, the brushes are of decent size. It wouldn't surprise me if they could take 156 volts+ to the motor (which would need some advancement to the brushes). It is a craps shoot though untill someone does it, being there aren't any 156 volt forklifts out there, hehe.
With that said, I fill that this motor could take a full punch from a Zilla although the top end voltage would be the question. The cont duty cycle would (I'm guessing here) be about the same as an ADC8 (maybe a bit lower).
Hope this helps (a little 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## ForkenSwift (Feb 3, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> With that said, I fill that this motor could take a full punch from a Zilla


The value of the ForkenSwift just went WAAY up!  

(Of course the Zilla would also twist our pump shaft off the Lovejoy coupler like twisting the stem off a cherry!)

Darin


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

So I guess the real question would be how much voltage can the EV1 take or is it a waste on such a good motor? Label on the Baker said 48v. I have 10 ea 12v 150A and have to go change 6 more on Valiumtimes day that probably are still pretty good. Really don't want to add more than 600lbs to the Corolla.


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## ForkenSwift (Feb 3, 2008)

You can upgrade the EV-1 controller to make it do 96v. But from everything I've read, it's not the best controller to use because it's hard on batteries. 

It lacks the capacitance of newer PWM mosfet type controllers (like I _really_ know what that means). I'm just parroting what I've read elsewhere. Polly wanna cracker!

If you search the EV album, you'll find people who are using them. They were standard equipment in older EVs like Jet Electricas.

Ask on the EVDL and you'll find a couple of EV-1 experts.


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## ForkenSwift (Feb 3, 2008)

EV-1 controller manual:
http://www.fsipcatalog.com/p-4447-ge-ev1-tech-manual-ev1-b200201-e701e702.aspx


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Can anyone give me a rough guess on the size of vehicle I could push around with THIS motor?

It is the drive motor off a Raymond 36V fork truck and weighs 90 lbs. It is about 10 inches diameter and 10 or 11 inches long.

The other motor you see in the background is much bigger, but has a funky female connection and only spins the one direction.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I finally had a little time and got to take the drive end plate off the drive motor from my forklift.










Is there a rule of thumb for what weight vehicle you can push with what size motor? This motor weighs 90 lbs. I have another that weighs 130, but it has a female connector instead of a driveshaft.

The windings on this motor look pretty good to me. They are a heavy, flat copper. Aren't windings usually more of a wire? These windings look more like buss bars! They should be able to handle some high amps, right?

You can see more photos of this motor here.

OK - wierd question - what is the "bubblegum" on the rotor? Is that some sort of high-tech repair epoxy, or did somebody actually drop some chewing gum into this motor?

Any and all comments on this motor are welcome. I am learning as I go, and do well by combining hands-on tinkering with experienced person's advice.

Thanks in advance,

-Ben




http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWeb/Home/ev_02.html


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

try to measure the copper widths so we can calc a cross section. that might eventually allow us to compare current capability of motors.
sure looks odd. not what you would expect but I guess it works.
I'd guess it would be able to power a smallish car. about a ton.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Dan,

On this motor, it appears that the flat copper that connects the coils just goes on to become winding. (This is the only motor I have ever opened before, so I apologize if I say something either obvious or stupid)

Each of the windings is just soldiered to the next..The copper is 5/8 inch wide by 3/32 inch thick.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

The flat busbar type winding is what you'd expect to see in a series wound traction motor like this. The bubblegum is there to balance the rotor.

The mass suggest that it would handle about as well as this motor http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2114.htm, except have more torque and lower RPM due to the diameter.

However, it only has 4 brushes vs 8 on the L91 and those brushes look pretty darn wimpy. The current density would thus be twice as high and the brushes will overheat 4 times as fast. That's the weak point on your motor.

My guess is that it would do ok in a light Geo metro type vehicle, so don't load it up with too much lead and put a decent blower on the motor to keep those brushes cold.

If Jim Husted says differently; take his advice over mine. He has tons more experience than I.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

that's around 38mm2 cross section. Iirc by my calculation that wire would take 1000A for 30 seconds before overheating depending on insulation class. and that's if only one of them carries the current. don't know about the brushes though


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

I really appreciate all the info provided here. I have a GE drive motor from a old Hyster standup forklift. The specs are as follows: HP 2.5, RPM 1800, Volts 24, amps 103, series wound. It is approximately 6.75" diam by 10" long. It has dual 7/8" keyed shafts and weighs probably 60-70 lbs. I have pics but they are too large to post. There are four brushes around 1/2" by 1 1/4" with two wires to each. There are 38 commutator bars about 1/4" wide. Now am I correct in assuming that if I could run it 100 volts that would increase the hp to 10 and if the rpms doubled that would then double the hp to 20? In other words would this be large enough for a 2000lb car? Norm


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm guessing a wee bit on the weak side but depending on the speed you want out of it it could probably scrape by. maybe even freeway speeds


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Posted this info in another thread (Rear Wheel Assist...)...but figured I'd get a better response here...

The weather finally got nice enough for me to pick up the motors at the forklift shop today. I got two of them for $60. The guy says they'll run, they just look ugly and the lifts were being scrapped for safety reasons (cracks in the framework).

The motors are practically identical except for the output shafts on each end. One was used for the drive/steering wheel motor and the other was used for the main hydro-pump.
Here's the info on the dataplates for each of the motors:
Motor #1
TYPE NO-----VOLTS-----Serial #
AU 1829M------24--------12P

Part Enclosed ---Part Ventilated----Class
(scratched out)-----2755172--------H


Motor #2
TYPE NO------VOLTS ----Serial #
AU 1829M------24---------4R

Part Enclosed----Part Ventilated-----Class
2751543----------2751542 ----------H

Both motors came off a 'ClarkLift Narrow Aisle' standup forklift.
Clark model #NST30, Type E
NST245-0021-5300FA
Bat AH - 1600-1200
Max weight 6800 LBS
and a few other numbers I didn't think we're all that important...

The drive/steering motor has a fat tooth gear on one end with a brake drum on the other end. It also has separate field and armature connections, 4 posts total. (I assume if I connect all four in 'series', I get what is described below)

The hydro-pump motor has a cover on one end and a 'female screwdriver type slot in the other end. Only has 2 posts, single direction I suppose.

Both motors spin nicely, smooth bearings, no detectable side play, or end-to-end play that I can feel. I haven't pulled the brushes out or directly looked at the windings, but looking thru the side of the cases, both look 'ok' except for all the dirt and grit on them. I don't smell anything burnt up or roached in any way.

What do I use to clean these things up? Standard ol' brake cleaner, just bathe it in that or what?

Both the motors - they are both 6 5/8" diameter at the case edges, and both of them are about 9 1/2" - 10" in length at, what I believe, are the case ends, without the end caps themselves being measured.

Are these motors even worth anything? And if they aren't, are they worth anything to me, especially at $60 for the two of them?

I just got done reading the Motors 101 page on Hi Torque's site. I'll probably get the teardown done this weekend after a quicky test with the variable power supply...more to come...


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Skimask,

Post some photos so we can see them!

My big hydro pump motor has that "female screwdriver connection" you were talking about.

I would really love to use that motor. Mine is a 9" diameter and weighs about 120 lbs. I think it should be perfect for my Metro. But I need to figure out how to attach it with that weird connection!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Skimask

Both of your motors are Prestolites with the 2755172 being an MJT-4016 motor. Prestolite specs are listed as:
12 volts, 38 amps, 3000 RPM's, 0 load
22 volts, 60 amps, 3500 to 3900 RPM's, 2 ft.lbs.

The 2751543 motor is an MGE-4007 and it's listed specs are:
6 volts, 32 amps, 2210 RPM's min., 0 load
22 volts, 135 amps, 2600 to 2900 RPM's, 5 ft.lbs.

These are only 4 brushed motors and basically the type of motor I use to make up the NEDRA raffle motors I build up for the EVents. To small for a full conversion, but okay for a EM (although you'll need to gear it 5 to one for motor happiness)(Keeping the RPM's up). Thye'd make very quick gokart motors or drive a quad or whatEVer.

For higher voltages you'll want to advance the brush timing by about 10 degrees. These probably have the leads in the housing which makes it a bit harder to do if compared to the leads being in the comm plate, where they'd also rotate with the plate as you rotated it to match the new mount holes after timing it.

That comm plate on the MJT (should have a weird triangle look to it) isn't the best to work with but shouldn't be an issue. Depending on the style of the MGE motor you might be able to swap those out with each other if it makes using it easier, need to see pics to confirm. In as much as you could probably throw 120 volts to them with a harder advancment of the brushes, they'll work better, live longer if limited to 72 volts. The MJT motor shouldn't have a fan either and will effect it's duty cycle if compared to one with a fan. The MGE has a poor shaft and is wound much courser and will cost you harder current than the MJT.
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Grimm

Watt's are amps times volts and I like to use a 1000 watts per HP as a general rule (allows for heat and friction losses) as it give a better predictionof what to expect when looking at power to the pavement.

With that said, 100 volts at 200 amps will net you 20 HP to the wheels. This motor will probably do it, but for only very short periods of time. Adding a forced air blower would allow the motor to run longer without burning up but to be honest it's to small to use in a car. Hate to see you spend all the time and money to fit it in only to get poor results and a fried motor.

These 6.7's (regardless of maker) are really only valid for use in smaller type conversions like Gokarts, EM's, quads, ect.
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
PS: I've been super busy here, and had a cold all week so if I've missed anyone (threads bigger than when I was here last) please kick me in the butt if I've missed anyone.
Cya


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the info Jim. As it turns out I may have found another motor. I hopefully will get to look at it on Sunday. The guy said it is from a large old Clark forklift and the the motor is about 12" in diameter and takes two people to lift. The best part is he wants to trade for some smaller motors. I'll be sure to slide the cover off and see what it looks like inside. It's about 50 miles away or I would send you some pics. Thankyou. Norm


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Both of your motors are Prestolites


What's the deal here? Do you got a crystal ball or what! 



> 2 ft.lbs..........5 ft.lbs.


2 and 5 ft/lbs? Doesn't seem like a whole heck of a lot!



> but okay for a EM


EM....not following you...



> Hope this helps.


Are you kidding? I've been surfing for a few days now....haven't been able to find squat until a couple of minutes ago...

I'll get some pic's posted sometime this weekend after I get them cleaned up a bit. They're not dirty as in 'used and dirty', they're more 'been sitting outside in the dust and mud' dirty.

Aside from the help on that Motor 101 page, any tips for taking these things apart?



> From BenNelson: that female screwdriver connection


I've got an idea on how to get around that, but I have to put it down on paper. It involves machining a shaft to engage that slot, putting a lip on that shaft which will ride up against a bearing plate. A bit like a drive shaft center carrier bearing in a weird sort of way. Basically, I would think it would end up adding a couple inches to the overall length of the motor.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> .
> 
> With that said, 100 volts at 200 amps will net you 20 HP to the wheels. This motor will probably do it, but for only very short periods of time. Adding a forced air blower would allow the motor to run longer without burning up but to be honest it's to small to use in a car. Hate to see you spend all the time and money to fit it in only to get poor results and a fried motor.


What size blower would you recommend, like what CFM?


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## sharp21 (Mar 11, 2008)

Pretty sure EM is electric Motorcycle
S.


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Got a load of pictures of the 2 motors. Going to post them at:
www.srt.com/~jdgotte
Should have them up and posted by midnight 22Mar.


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## ecvs (Mar 4, 2008)

This is a great thread. Lots of information. What I'm wondering is if there might be a possibility of making a list of electric fork trucks that would be good donors that we could keep an eye out for as we hunt around for them.
Probably Jim Husted (High Torque Electric) or anyone else who is knowledgeable on the subject could post a list. 
Tom


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all
The subject of compiling a list of forklifts / motors a number of times so I thought I'd throw out some thoughts as my name comes up. Some of the basic issues in doing this are the 1000's of different model's spread over decades of time, and the fact that I know motors but do not have (or know) which lift model they might actually go in. So many times a motor might have great characators, but still have issues that need addressed, so that also must be recorded. It also comes down to a "I don't know how to describe art, but I know it when I see it" kind of thing. Being that a picture says a thousand words, looking at the pictures of motors and parts (armature, fields, "brushes", size) you get a ton of info that can be used to self judge a particular motor for your use.
Another issue is there are cases where I know there are models of lifts out there that have 2 sometimes 3 different motors, some upgraded versions because the first version sucked, some where the manufacturers were changed. This can make or break the project in being successful, and or repeatable. Ben's MNE 9" motor's a clasic example, he got the earliest model, had that lift been a year or two newer, it'd had the same motor but with a beefier brush and ring in it (so not all 570-215's are equal). In many cases what's good for the goose will kill the gander. I know guys using small 6.7's in full sized conversions, but on the other side of the coin, I just got a call from a guy who just burnt up an ADC8. The guys got a 7 mile commute, using the tranny, doing EVerything right actually, and it really raised some red flags. Spending a few minutes more with the guy sheds some light in that he has a hill at the end of his return trip, bingo! Here's this guy who didn't get a key piece of the puzzle that by adding a blower, or keeping the RPM's up caused him a lot of grief. That said it's that "looking at that particular conversions needs" would have made a huge difference in this guys success. Getting you guys to send me a few pics where I can throw out my input, maybe ask a few questions back, adds a bit of attention to the project so gaps aren't left to chance.
The biggest factor is time. Just like EVeryone else, I'm limited in having to choose my battles, do you go off and fight the dragon, or choose to save the damsle in distress 8^o On the EVDL I had and have posted about being some Spartan Warrior, very much so outnumbered. It came about as my wife and I were watching the 300 one night where at one point she looked over at me and said, that's kind of like you hunny, with all the EVer's out there attacking you, LMAO. I wish I had time to just post here more, but anymore just keeping up with private emails consumes huge amounts of my time. Jim's also someone who enjoys a little R&R and God knows doesn't spend enough family time as well. That all said, I get a little busy and hope that thrusting a little of the effort back to you guys to post or send a pic a question where I can spend a quick minute and answer with better information than a basic generalization. FWIW, I've had a motor FYI, general jist list molding on my laptop for well over a year 8^( I try and answer people best I can, but I haven't been clear, or have missed people, please, please get my attention. Sometimes if the damsle isn't screaming I don't know my attention is needed. On that, I got the wife tapping her soes at me so I have to wrap this up for now. Lastly I guess is that I also am still learning here as it's been just the last couple years that I've been looking at lift motors in a new light. Wife's pinching ear now got to run, yeah, EVen a Spartan soldiers got his weaknesses and boss, LMAO.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
PS: yes, EM is electric motorcycle, sorry about that. I'll also look at those pics and post more when I can.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

I was given a deal to strip a Clark Riding forklift and I get the motors controller free and maybe charger free . The car I'm turning electric is my LINCOLN MARK 8 . The 8.8 R&P will be 4.88-1, 4.11-1 or 3.55-1 directdrive . 48v golfcart battteries 8v in series and three batteries parallel per 1 battery for amps . The car should be 4,050lbs with the parts . 25 mile range and 670lbs of batteries should give me a 52 MPH drive speed.....right ? I'm still going over drive systems and parts . If there's a controller that is simple but has a basic throttle and idle (if I'm saying it right ) so I can run a AOD , that would be the best . I'll mainly be going to work and to car shows , no freeways......for now!


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Jim,

Thanks for all your help on this thread.

I get the feeling that there are a lot of people in this forum who are just learning about all this electric car thing. (Including myself!!!)

Your time an expert advice is appreciated!!!


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all.......EVen a Spartan soldiers got his weaknesses and boss, LMAO.


Well articulated...well said...
And if it was legal, I suppose I fire a 12 pack to ya thru the mail...
But since it's not, I'll probably have to wait until I get around that neck of the woods in July or so (it won't be in the EV though )



> PS: yes, EM is electric motorcycle, sorry about that. I'll also look at those pics and post more when I can.


A couple notes from the other post (it was the one about the rear wheel assist). This project is going to start out as a mild riding mower conversion project to get my feet wet in the inner workings of EV's. Eventually, it will migrate to be a Rear-wheel assist on my '88 Chevy Sprint (rear axle transplant from a narrow vehicle like maybe a RWD Datsun pickup or something) and if the ICE blows up soon enough (the ICE in the Sprint is on it's way out with a couple of slapping pistons and slowly vanishing compression, not bad for 200K miles), it will most likely end up a full-on EV conversion project.


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## ecvs (Mar 4, 2008)

Just in case someone is interested and close enough to it, there is a baker forklift on ebay in the Fort Wayne Indiana area going for 800 bucks or there abouts. Ebay # 380003920518 Might be worth buying for the motors and getting your money back on scrap metal.
I'd look at it but I'm just a little too far away (Canada)








Tom


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## ecvs (Mar 4, 2008)

I have a line on a Crown Forklift - Model # 35SCTT - 3000LB lift capacity. It is a sit on type. Does anyone know if it would have suitable motors?
Tom


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

ecvs said:


> I have a line on a Crown Forklift - Model # 35SCTT - 3000LB lift capacity. It is a sit on type. Does anyone know if it would have suitable motors?
> Tom


I am no expert, but a quick web search shows that its a 36 volt system designed to lift 3500 LBs, so I'd say there is a decent pump motor if anything. It uses an EV-1 controller so that might have some value, but from my point of view it looks like it has hope.


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## ecvs (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm just haggling with the guy on cost at the moment. I'm hoping to get it for 300. 
Tom


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Since my GE 6.7" motor from the standup Hyster is is too small I went back to where I got it and decided to pull the pump and steering motors to trade to a another guy . While I was there I noticed a larger stand up Yale and it had a GE 7.5"X 12.5" pump motor that has the longer comutator and brushes. The model number is 5BT1324B49. It is series wound and the hp is 7.85, rpm 1130, Volts 25.4, amps 353. Seems odd that the rpm's are so low. That calculates out to 9kw at 25.4 volts so according to what Jim H. mentioned earlier that would translate to around 9 hp right? So 120 volts at 353 amps should give me a peak of 42kw or roughly 40 hp if I add more cooling. The only down side is it has the female spline type shaft. I also got the pump so I wonder if it would be possible to pull the shaft out of the pump and weld it into the motor shaft. So realistically how heavy can the car be with this motor? Norm


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

Not really sure what you'll find on the Crown sitdown (a lot depends on year)(at least sometimes) but would imagine a pair of 7.5" motors (or a single big one on an old lift) so you should find something useful.

Norm
That GE would probably need some blower cooling but would do a much better job than that 6.7 for sure. Coupling that shaft is the issue, but if you got the male piece you could machine something to adapt with as an idea. You will have to advance the brush timing to run it at 120 volts (10 degrees).
As to the 42+- HP, The only thing I didn't mention is battery sag, so you need to figuer out how much the batts would sag when you pull 400 amps, to get the best picture on what to expect.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> That GE would probably need some blower cooling


Question about the blower cooling...
I've got the MGE and MJT motors that I just cleaned up (pictures are posted on my webpage). An idea that was rolling around in my head was to cut a few circular holes in that thin band (or maybe replace it with a custom cover or some sort) that covers the brushes on the C.E. and run flexible hoses to a manifold which would be 'pumped' from a standard automotive blower motor/housing (or maybe something hand built to tighter tolerances for more airflow). The air would basically go in the comm end and come out the drive end (assuming no other holes in the C.E. plate).
Is this what you're talking about? Or are we talking, for simplistic purposes, a ceiling fan mounted over the motor itself cooling the case? Or am I going to have to get crazy and mount some sort of circular water jacket around the motor case itself in addition to forced air running thru the middle of the armature? And then cooling that water with LH2?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I was thinking of a 435 CFM 12 volt blower to cool my 6.7 inch motor and have it connected to the comm end with the brushes. It might be overkill, but that means it will last longer.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ski

Yep, you got it right, little squirl cage blower blowing air through he motor. The brushes and comm are the main heat source. By adding a blower and forcing air in, you create a possitive pressure as well which works well in keeping stuff like water from entering as an added bonus on rainy days or when hitting those pot holes ect.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

As an FYI Bryan just posted some pics of a lift motor he just got under this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/help-me-put-all-together-10625.html


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Yep, you got it right, little squirl cage blower blowing air through he motor.


Good...I got plenty of older GM blower motors laying around. Shouldn't be too much of a problem to whip up some sort of manifold w/ ductwork once everything is in place.



> As an FYI Bryan just posted some pics of a lift motor he just got under this thread:


Ya, that's a big 'un... Much bigger than the ones I've got. But again, I'm only looking at a 'rear wheel assist'.
As the pictures on my page show, I cleaned up the motors, and they cleaned up well. This weekend it'll be time to reassemble (I believe the brushes have plenty of meat on them, but I don't know how big a new brush is). Then a quick ops check. I've got an older variable power supply, 0-30v/0-5amp, should be good enough for a spin check/no load/bolted down of course, ease the voltage up 'till it starts spinning and watch out for overspeed.

What is the maximum rpm's on these things? I know you said they're rated for 3,000-ish (give or take) under a load, but what's the 'fly apart'/'self destruct' RPM rating? For that matter, what rpm do you want to stay under for long life (well, normal usage anyways)?


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## ecvs (Mar 4, 2008)

I've been looking at a few different old fork lifts. One is a baker pallet truck 6000 lb. 1982 BWR60. Would a pallet truck of this type have a good motor for an EV or is it too small because of it being a pallet truck?
Tom


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

SKi, those 6.7" motors should be good to 7K RPM, maybe best to limit them to 6K though. 

EC,
PalletJack motor's are 6.7" motors or smaller usually and are to small for full sized convesions, but might make a great motorcycle or if not, make a great go-kart, rider lawnmower project.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> SKi, those 6.7" motors should be good to 7K RPM, maybe best to limit them to 6K though.


More good info. I'm building up a PIC based RPM counter just for this purpose. 6K rpm, sounds bit too fast for me! I guess I'll see what it feels like once I get it mounted in something.
Just got a MIG welder a couple days ago, along with a load of scrap metal. Going to spend a month or so practicing on the junk, and then making some junk...well, it doesn't start off as junk, but I'm sure after I start welding it, it'll end up junk!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ski

As for the 7K on those motor's that would be their upper most limit. Their sweet spot should fall between 2500 to 4500 RPM's and IS where you should try to run them majority of the time. As for the welding into junk thing, One man's junk is another man's Picasso 8^) which is better than having it become a Van Gogh (cause you won't have to lop off an ear 8^o

No one EVer starts out an expert (heck, made lot's of Picasso's myself 8^)

Anyway, practice makes perfect, so sitting down with your new toy and doing small practice welds on junk might help you save a few bucks in canvas in hopes that when the time comes your work will be worthy of putting in a frame (or in this case "on the frame), hehe 8^)

Best of luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Skimask what kind of welder did you get ?........J.W.


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## skimask (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Their sweet spot should fall between 2500 to 4500 RPM's and IS where you should try to run them majority of the time.


Noted...gear it just right so 2500 would be about 35mph and 4500 would be about 63mph. It would be a bit under in town and a bit over on the highway. Now remember, this is only an assist motor. If the motor was freewheeling at 5000 RPM, would that make much of a difference vs. being powered at 5000 RPM?



> As for the welding into junk thing, One man's junk is another man's Picasso 8^) which is better than having it become a Van Gogh (cause you won't have to lop off an ear 8^o


Better than burning out a retina!!!



ww321q said:


> Skimask what kind of welder did you get ?........J.W.


A cheap Marquette (?)... Don't remember the model number and it's only a 120V type, but the price was right, $500 with a handful of extras (helmet, gloves, apron, spool of wire, regulator for the tank, metal working vise grips, etc.etc.), refurb'd unit from one of those roaming tool shows. I don't think I should need a 220V type. I don't plan on welding any frame rails or splicing any big I-beams together any time soon. I've got a friend that has a small Lincoln 120V model, been drag racing for about 15 years. That's all he's ever needed except for the biggest jobs (he says 3 or 4 in the last 15 years) and then he wants the quality of a professional shop with the best of equipment.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> SKi, those 6.7" motors should be good to 7K RPM, maybe best to limit them to 6K though.
> 
> Hope this helps
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric


Jim,
Mine is 170 lb. Baldor as mentioned. 

It is 15" long and 10" wide. It has 4 pairs of brushes.

My gearing comes out to where you shift it, at each different 10 mph increment. 
Example 3rd gear = 30-35 mph comfortably, 4th 40-45 mph, both of these are just at the 3000 rpm stage. 

Amp draw is under 200 at the controller. 72 volt system.

The motor doesn't even get luke warm in 40 F weather.

Does this sound about right, for lasting a long time? Thanks


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## captndiet (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim Husted,

I also have a motor question.

I have a brand new Schabmuller motor, R210, 36 vdc, 150 amp, 1885 rpm, 4.5 KW. It has four sets of three brushes. It is approx. 8.25" diameter and about 12" long less the fan. 115 lbs. It has a tapered shaft that I built a coupler for.

I picked it up cheap and planned to use it in a 1000 lb. NEV sized vehicle. My needs are 40 mph intermittent and 20 miles max. a day. I have an Alltrax 7245 and 72 volt contactor and reverse contactor, etc.

I found one person using it,

http://www.evalbum.com/78

and he has not had any issues with his application.

What do you think?

Jeff


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Coley, Capt

Both of these motors should be just fine. Haven't had a lot of free time here so sorry for the delay in replying.
Jim


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Might I be able to use this Motor to propel a Geo Metro or a Triumph Spitfire?

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/for/632060007.html

Thanks,
Brian


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## sharp21 (Mar 11, 2008)

Here is one that came up
http://calgary.kijiji.ca./c-ViewAd?AdId=44999066
Ive sent a message asking about the motor so Ill see what he comes back with.
S.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Rotary

That 6.7" 4 brushed Crown is to small to do a car. As an FYI though I have several of those built and ready to ship for not that much more being they've been completely gone through, if you decide on a smaller project.

http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/MOTORS+FOR+SALE/rebuilt+modified/
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Yeah, at 40 lbs, I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if it would even be capable of getting the Spit up to 35mph or so. That would at least get my project started. Oh well. If it's too small, it's too small.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

sharp21 said:


> Here is one that came up
> http://calgary.kijiji.ca./c-ViewAd?AdId=44999066
> Ive sent a message asking about the motor so Ill see what he comes back with.
> S.


I think you pulled a Norm. Unless you are planning a propane conversion 
Norm


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## sharp21 (Mar 11, 2008)

Right you are! 
Should have posted that on diypropanecar.com....
S.


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## talonts (Apr 11, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Rotary
> 
> That 6.7" 4 brushed Crown is to small to do a car. As an FYI though I have several of those built and ready to ship for not that much more being they've been completely gone through, if you decide on a smaller project.
> 
> ...


That Crown should be enough for Craftsman LT 1000 riding mower, though, right? 6 spd tranny. Originally had an 18hp engine, but the PO replaced it with a 12.5hp when it blew.

I got it free since the 12.5 blew, and I'm trying to convert it to EV as cheaply as possible. The Crown looks like it would work.

I'd consider a golf cart motor, but every one I've seen on Ebay is open-ended on the shaft output, needing a bearing in the axle housing to support the shaft. I haven't seen any sites about custom bearing plates to close off the motor for vertical use.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> That Crown should be enough for Craftsman LT 1000 riding mower, though, right? 6 spd tranny. Originally had an 18hp engine, but the PO replaced it with a 12.5hp when it blew.
> 
> I got it free since the 12.5 blew, and I'm trying to convert it to EV as cheaply as possible. The Crown looks like it would work.
> 
> I'd consider a golf cart motor, but every one I've seen on Ebay is open-ended on the shaft output, needing a bearing in the axle housing to support the shaft. I haven't seen any sites about custom bearing plates to close off the motor for vertical use.


I have an electric go kart that weighs about 600 or so pounds with me sitting on it and it has no problem climbing up 45 degree grades SPINNING TIRES!! The motor I have is the A00-4009 that is 6.7" diameter. Controller is an Alltrax AXE7234 300 amp controller set at 270 amps via software. My gear ratio is 4:1 so that motor that you posted should make your riding lawn a beast against gas mowers especially since your mower will have gear ratios lower than 4:1. You could pull stumps out of the ground whereas a weakly gas powered one would choke.

I have my old AXE4834 controller that was meant for 12 to 48 volts that I originally used for my go kart, but I wanted more speed so I upgraded to higher voltage and subsequently had to get the proper controller rated for that voltage upgrade. I suppose I could give you my old one if you are serious about building an EV riding lawnmower.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

*Another Motor*


























Hello!

I got a drive motor out of a full-size older Nissan forklift. this motor bolted directly onto the drive axel and has a tail shaft that had a disc parking brake on it.

I was finally able to pull the motor apart and take a look inside. It was VERY greasy in there. I picked away the grime as best I could with my fingers and hosed it down with WD-40.

It has four field coils and brushes. The brushes are extremely worn and there is some scoring on the commutator. Is this just because of the brushes getting worn down to almost nubs?

The motor has a ten inch diameter. I don't know how much it weighs, but took two guys to lift. (that did include at the time the parking brake and motor mounting bracket.)

Now that it is apart, I can see that the middle section with the coils is seven inches long.

What can you tell me about this motor? It is plenty big. I am planning on using either this motor or a 9" forklift hydraulic pump motor to power my Geo Metro.

This motor has a shaft on BOTH ends and an actual place to connect other parts to it. The splines on both ends are the same. I thought the hub from the parking brake might be a good start of a motor to transmission coupler. Ideally, I would like to keep the clutch in this car too.

For more photos of this motor, please see this LINK


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## nagash3 (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi all
I'm new to the forum and I've already a couple of questions
I've got a motor and I need to know if I can use it to made an ev veicole
the motor was a forklift traction motor the forklift is a caterpillar mc30
and the motor is an 48v 9" class h
this are the pictures



the quiestions are this

1) can I use this motor to power decently an ev veicole?

2) can I overpower it? (72 maybe 96 v?)

3) how to test if it works?

4) how to know if it need regeneration?

Thank you a lot and sorry for my english


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

if it works it should be able to power a car fine. and yes using it in a car would require much more voltage than 48v. 96-144v should be fine. that's normal.
someone else can perhaps tell you how to test it. that depends on the type and design. shouldn't be too hard


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## nagash3 (Apr 14, 2008)

thanks dan so I think I need a new controller if I want to use it 96 v the stock controller is only for 48v?


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Hi all, Can anyone tell me if a motor I'v come across is any good for an EV?

It's one of 3 Olivetti motors out ov a large Olivetti CNC mill. and the boss says its free if I want it!!

It is a 110Volt DC motor with a 240Volt AC fan on the end, its 200mm in diameter and about 400mm long not including the fan. The tag on it is in Italian but is says the following
Ing.C OLIVETTI&C-spa-Ivrea
Motore a corrente continua
Armatura V110 A30
Eccitazione V125 A0.04
Giri 4500 Nm6
Freno V24

Its a heavy sucker

Cheers


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Since no one else responded I'll take a guess. At first looking just at the measurements I thought it may be big enough. Then I looked at the ratings of 110 volts and 30 amps. That would only give you 3.3 kw or roughly 3.3 hp. Surprisingly low for something that measures 7.8" x 15". Now if it was 300 amps that would make a big difference. Norm


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## 3dplane (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi!
Looking at the "label" it looks like a separetely excited motor since it gives specs on armatue and "eccitazione" (guessing field)(although I don't speak italian) So that might explain the unusual numbers.I do not have any experience with those but hopefully someone else can give you some useful answer.(cough cough jim cough cough ) Barna.


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## MrCrabs (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe that is a seperatly excited motor.
Google translates eccitazione to excitation...

My guess, and this is just a guess here, is that on a CNC machine, exact speed control would be desired, and not raw power.
Since it is so heavy, once its at speed, its harder to change speed (higher moment of inertia takes more force/load to change speed).

Giri 4500 Nm 6
Giri = Laps (according to Google) so 4500 RPM
6 Nm = 4.42 Ft Lb of torque
If that Nm does stand for Netwon meter

So my hunch is that it would not be a good drive motor....


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

nagash3, yes. maybe look at kelly's controllers. they have a very cheap 84v one but that might be too weak but they also have never 120 and 144v ones
the type has to match too. series, sepex etc


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Thanks for the response guys, I had a feeling it was too good to be true cos it was free but it WAS worth a try

thanks


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ben

Theat puppy looks like it had some gunk in it huh? lol. The armature looks great and the coils look a bit dark but okay. All in all that should make a great motor. Advance the brush timing about 10 degrees opposite the motors intended rotation.

Same for your motor Nagash.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi folks,

J.W. just pointed out this motor and I wanted to get an opinion.

http://www.3rivers.net/~cmac/motors/ast-639-6.htm

The biggest problem is that a lot of times you can't physically inspect a motor to see the wire thickness, brushes, and the like. A description, and weight is all you get.

I want to try to push around a 93 Toyota Tercel. 2000 lbs curb weight. Need to get it up to 55 MPH to qualify for the GA state tax credit.

Could a beastie like this possibly do that?

Thanks for the help,

ga2500ev


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

80 pounds doesn't sound like much. maybe. it certainly can, just a matter of how long thermally and how speedy it will be in everyday driving.
you should watch for the CCW thing though. that probably means it's only suitable for counter clock wise rotation. that can work but only if it matches the gearbox


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Hay ga2500ev if you call these guys http://www.3rivers.net/~cmac/motors/ast-639-6.htm they have a info sheet on this motor ........................................J.W.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

That 3 rivers motor is an aircraft sarter/generator and people use them but don't expect to much performance out of it. Try searching the EV Photo album using the search by feature to see if that motors listed as I know Mike in Alaska is using one so try a search via Alaska if nothing else.
Hope this helps.

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> That 3 rivers motor is an aircraft sarter/generator and people use them but don't expect to much performance out of it. Try searching the EV Photo album using the search by feature to see if that motors listed as I know Mike in Alaska is using one so try a search via Alaska if nothing else.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric


Jim I sent him links for 6 cars on the EV album that use starter/generators . I thought it would help with research . I also posted links for 2 more good motors this being one of them http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-DC-ele...ryZ42922QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It sold for $587 It looked like a winner to . In the comments it says he has more coming . Lastly I want to thank you for the info on my motor. ..J.W.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Coley said:


> Quote:
> "Seeing this motor would allow me to have further input"
> 
> I can email you a picture of it.
> ...


Sorry to pop in on this one. I havent read the whole thread yet but those specs sound exactly like the Baldor I used in my Geo Metro. I ran 120v on that motor, ran it up to 6000rpm no load, and 500amps during acceleration. I was very happy with it. I did however reinforce the shaft-side end housing so when I pushed on the clutch it wouldn't shove the armature out the other end. It only had a cheezy sheetmetal washer holding the bearing in the housing.


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## marto (May 30, 2008)

what do you guys think of this motor for a dual motor car conversion http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_132/PMG_132.htm
any other cheap advise?
it would be for a 2800 pound car, thanks


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## OnlineAtvSalvage (May 28, 2008)

There are from time to time big aircraft starters on ebay. Like this one:

ebay item #110258838421

Any idea if this kind of motor is good for an EV. There are some fairly big starter motors. They double as generators. Sometimes they go for a good price


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Those will push a car but are FAR from efficient. Look in the forsale section. I posted a shunt wound GE motor I'd let go cheap. Much more efficient but not as much torque and it's a higher voltage.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

marto said:


> what do you guys think of this motor for a dual motor car conversion http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_132/PMG_132.htm
> any other cheap advise?
> it would be for a 2800 pound car, thanks


Hi marto,

I think you'll be sorry. Better to spend that much money on a single wound field motor.

Regards,

major


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## bucket (Jan 8, 2008)

Would this make a nice motor for a light conversion ?
My car is a 1975 datsun 100A (weighs 650 kg = 1433 pounds) and for my transportation I would need max 70 km/h (44 miles/h) ...








plate:









Thanks, could get this one really cheap 

note: don't think its a forklift motor, don't even know where it comes from ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm no motor expert but it looks like it might be a 440 volt AC industrial motor, and not a good choice for an EV. I could be wrong though


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bucket said:


> Would this make a nice motor for a light conversion ?
> My car is a 1975 datsun 100A (weighs 650 kg = 1433 pounds) and for my transportation I would need max 70 km/h (44 miles/h)
> Thanks, could get this one really cheap
> 
> note: don't think its a forklift motor, don't even know where it comes from ?


Hi bucket,

Yeah, it might. Hard telling how big it is. But the way I read it, 440 volts on the armature and 100 or 200 on the field for 7.5 hp at 2200 rpm. What would you use for a battery? For a controller? Running motors at lower voltage than the nameplate gives you less power. The norm seems to be to run a higher than nameplate voltage. You need to put together a package you can afford and live with. A motor, battery, charger, controller and transmission. Just getting a cheap motor isn't enough. It might break the bank to get the rest of the system to match it.

Regards,

major


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

I've located, via a local source, a motor that I'm told is purchased frequently to use on EV's. The guy chuckled when I told him what I wanted it for as people apparently call a lot for this reason. He told me that people have bought several motors from Hyster E50XL and E50XM forklifts. He mentioned that they are 8" in diameter and 36V. This voltage sounds very low to me as I want to operate a 120V pack.

Can anyone help demystify this subject for me?

Thanks!

Ben in SC


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> 've located, via a local source, a motor that I'm told is purchased frequently to use on EV's. The guy chuckled when I told him what I wanted it for as people apparently call a lot for this reason. He told me that people have bought several motors from Hyster E50XL and E50XM forklifts. He mentioned that they are 8" in diameter and 36V. This voltage sounds very low to me as I want to operate a 120V pack.
> 
> Can anyone help demystify this subject for me?
> 
> ...


Ben,

Since I assume you live in South Carolina as I do from what I gather with "Ben in SC", then you should go to Belton Metals Inc. They have a scrap yard that has sit down electric forklifts that should have the motors in them. The number to reach their office is (864)-338-7426. The scrap yard is open to the public in case you are wandering....It's the best way to save some money.

*
*


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

telnetmanta, forklift motors are very robust,they will take a lot more voltage than what the plate says.you may have to adjust the timing of the brushes but 120 volts is doable for a lot of these types of motors.post on the EVDL and you might get an answer about it from jim husted,i think he visits there more than here.include the motor dimensions and model numbers and maybe link a photo or two.it will help people determine what you have and its possible capabilities.


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Mr. Husted!

I like your explanations, both here and on your own website. I'm fairly new to this EV thing and brand new to this forum, but I do have some questions that, at this point, only you can answer. 1.) The little yellow "Stinger" motor - How has it performed so far? 2.) Re: White Zombie's Siamese 8" motor has an adjustable brush plate(?) on the front motor. Is it the switching of the brushes from 15 degrees advanced to 0 degrees that reverses direction? 3.) Is this reversing done in conjunction with the rear motor, or does "reverse" drop the rear motor from the circuit? 4.)How does switching from series to parallel mid-run increase RPM and power potential? Hope this isn't too burdensome, but I'm trying to get a better understanding of these ideas in order to put together a very light commuter vehicle in the Myers Motors NmG class or lighter. The Stinger appears to be a 5.5" motor or thereabouts and I happen to have picked up a pair of 24V Advanced D.C. motors from, I believe, an electric pallet jack or a stand-on forklift, that I would like to try to siamese for this project. Without a doubt, one of these would be too small for this vehicle, but perhaps siamesed and series-switched for takeoff and hill-climbing, it could possibly do the work? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. BTW- Both motors have two part numbers on the plate - Part No. 992307 and Part no. 140-32-4001. 
Thanks, Alan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unfortunately Jim hasn't been around here in over a month, he's a busy guy, but hopefully he'll pop back in sometime.
One thing I can answer is the brush timing does not reverse the motor, you'd need a reversing contactor to do that.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> One thing I can answer is the brush timing does not reverse the motor, you'd need a reversing contactor to do that.


Hi JRP3,

Actually you can reverse the motor with brush timing (or position change) by rotating 90 degrees on a 4 pole motor. This is rarely if ever done. I believe that change in timing for reverse is done to eliminate arcing problems and give more torque. Reversing is done with contactors, but then the brush advance in the wrong direction. So, when in reverse, the brushes are rotated back to neutral. I know Jim pretty well. I don't think he'll mind me sticking my nose in here.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I see. I always assumed that with low reverse speeds timing/arcing would not be a problem.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Big A

First of only my Mom get's to call me Mr. Husted (and then only when pissed at me 8^o so call me Jim 8^)

1.) The little yellow "Stinger" motor - How has it performed so far?

That motor got just a couple runs in and did very well but was removed for another project and I've lost touch with where and what it's doing now. I built another motor much like it and it was put on the sister pocket bike Orange Crush and running 24 volts just ran a 10.95 second 1/8th mile "Crushing" the old record of 13.26 8^)

2.) Re: White Zombie's Siamese 8" motor has an adjustable brush plate(?) on the front motor. Is it the switching of the brushes from 15 degrees advanced to 0 degrees that reverses direction?

It's done so the front motor can be timed to the rear motor (electrically they run opposite each other. When reversing, the rear motor is disengaged and just the front motor is used, but it is then running at 15 degrees retarded (maybe advance chalenged is a more politically correct wording By using the adjustable timing it can be set to neutral for reverse and then set back to be timed correctly with it's brother.

3.) Is this reversing done in conjunction with the rear motor, or does "reverse" drop the rear motor from the circuit? 

Yep.

4.)How does switching from series to parallel mid-run increase RPM and power potential? Hope this isn't too burdensome, but I'm trying to get a better understanding of these ideas.

Running series produces more torque but you get far less RPM's at X voltage and running them in parallel gets you less torque (but your moving now and don't need it) and much higher RPM's at X voltage.

The Stinger appears to be a 5.5" motor or thereabouts and I happen to have picked up a pair of 24V Advanced D.C. motors from, I believe, an electric pallet jack or a stand-on forklift, that I would like to try to siamese for this project.

The Stinger is a 6.7" Prestolite so a little bigger than what you have, unless you need to re-measure 8^o. If you like throw me some pics and I'll put an eyeball on them for you. 

I would like to try to siamese for this project.

Maybe I'm partial to this phrase but it can only be a "Simaese" motor if it's conjoined via the shaft running through both motors 8^P So I'm thinking you'll couple them together?

BTW- Both motors have two part numbers on the plate - Part No. 992307 and Part no. 140-32-4001. 

When using twin motors, you need to use the same motor types or one will do most the work while the other is a couch tator which will cause the work horse to over heat and burn up.

Hey JR:
HEY, I was here yesterday 8^) (although I do admit I got busy and deserted my post for a little while) but that said if you guys need my attention, don't be afraid to kick me in a private (no not in the privates 8^) if when needed, to get my attention.

Hope this helps
Jim (not Mr.) Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey JR:
> HEY, I was here yesterday 8^)


You must have snuck in past my detectors  By the way, I've almost got the Yale running in my 6x6 project, hopefully by this weekend so I should avoid the Husted tax


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Major

Do I know you? What do you think you're doing sticking your nose in my business?? 

Just kidding, in fact Jeff and I are good friends, and I've come to respect his opinion and thoughts more than my own so you guys better listen to him or else

In fact it's why I sent him an invite here so if I'm hiding in a dark cave somewhere I know he's here to help answer some questions.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I see. I always assumed that with low reverse speeds timing/arcing would not be a problem.


Yeah JRP3, in most cases it's not a problem. I think where it is a problem is for racers going direct drive and maximum advance and then trying to back up a sharp incline. Your daily drivers with moderate advance probably don't have a problem and most of these guys use reverse via the transmission anyway.

Regards,

major


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

<Maybe I'm partial to this phrase but it can only be a "Simaese" motor if it's conjoined via the shaft running through both motors 8^P So I'm thinking you'll couple them together?>


Hi, Jim!

It's me again... Both motors are identical - just different manufacture dates - and I would prefer to do it the way you did on the siamese 8", since I am a machinist by trade and would make my own common shaft. I will try to post pictures in the near future. The case measures just under 5.5" dia. at the mounting end, just under 5.6" around the field windings (OD). Nice thick windings, aluminum comm/brush ends, two terminals on each motor. I assume these are from a pallet jack, as I pulled them from a cast-iron planetary drive system which drives directly into a planetary hub where there appears to be a bolt circle mounting for a hard rubber tire(?). Anyways, I'll send pics as soon as I can. Thanks, Alan.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Big

Well maybe I should look at the word siamese before sending it anyway, lol. I'd like to know what their combined weight will be, as it looks like these are the 5.5" instead of a 6.7". I actually made up a Siamese6 which is about the size of an L91-4003 motor and would in fact be big enough for a small conversion (actually more mass and a larger comm/brush footprint). Going smaller than these I would highly advise blow cooling them to increase their duty cycle.

As to the two terminal thing, it means they're one direction (unless they're permags) which if they are IMO would be another hit against using them as I feel they wouldn't be up to the task. If they are not permags and either a series or compound wound (and these were drive motors) then they reversed mechanically. If this is the case, then your two motors will run opposite each other if you invert them (yes one can be reversed, but adds to the complexity of the proccess).

To be honest, I've never EVen tried to remove/replace a 5.5" armature shaft as the windings supporting the commutator can be only described as having not eaten their Weatties  and will be difficult to do (remember, getting the shaft out is but 1/2 the battle 8^) 

That said, I'm not rooting against you now, but do my best as someone who works on these things daily and has a pretty good idea of what works what doesn't, and to advise the best I know how and to call stuff as I see it. Truth be told, I root for you guys (wouldn't be here if I didn't) and it sucks to have to shoot someones idea down (specially if they're working on budget or with free stuff) but would feel like a shmuck if I didn't say something. All this is mostly speculation at this point until I can put an eyeball on them and see just what critter you got there on your butchers block 

If all you have to loose is time and what you'll have to gain is knowlege, it'll be a great adventure, one way or another. If you're willing to risk the time (and me flipping you crap, I told you so 8^) I'm willing to do the same and be proven wrong

Hey any of you want to put in some bets? What odd's you given?? LMAO...

All kidding aside, wish you te best toward success 8^) I'll let you know more once I see what you got.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

hey jim,the very first question i ever posted on a forum was on the EVDL and you were the one to answer it.so here's another one for you,i need to know which of the following forklifts has a drive motor suitable for a truck conversion(dodge dakota). i have 4 to choose from, cat m50b,cat m50dsa,hyster e50xl,hyster e60xl.wondering if you would know what drive motors might be in any of these? thanks in advance!!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Joseph

I'm not versed in motor to lift cross ref but in general I would go with the Hysters as they should have big GE motors in them. The E50XL sounds familure though and should have a nice GE in it. In general, I've just never had the need to know what lift a motor came from, they just pulled it and sent it in to me. Now if you guys ask, what's the Manufacturer number(Prestolite, GE, ADC) to an OEM number (Hyster, Crown, Clark ) cross number, then I have it stored somewhere floating in my brain 8^) 

I get a lot of requests for me to put together a list of usable motor types, but then there's the "needed" modification aspect (shafts, rotation, advancement, ect) not to mention each motors strengths and weakness' and it overwhelms me just thinking about it. As an example, I've used a Crown 020260-001 motor a few times, and in of itself is a great Motor for a large Motorcycle or small car. The problem is the motor has no drive end bearng and it the lifts axle bearing went out it allows the motors armature to rub against the pole shoes which destroys the armature in short order. That doesn't EVen addres that I reshaft them and have to add a bearing journal to the DE plate.

A High school teacher wrote me one day asking questions, had his whole project layed out, had his motor (an 020260 it later turned out). After spending several emails with him, he sent me pics where I ID'd it as such and noted to him this motors issues and you had to be careful that the armature was still good EVen if the motor looked great. Five minutes later (I kid you not, this guy must have ran to his garage) he sent me back pics of a completely wiped out armature 8^( He says no problem, the guys got 3 more 8^) All four had rubbed and wiped out armatures and I've not heard from him sense.

He was getting the cores free but if he'd popped 50 bucks on them EVen he'd been out a lot of money. What people need to understand is just because you found a cheap motor, doesn't mean it'd be cheap to repair or replace. Taking this E50 motor for example, you may find a core for a great price, but that armature might cost 600 to 800 bucks to repair if not in working order and is why I tell you guys to inspect them both visually and with an ohm meter before buying.

Anyway, just some stuff to be aware of and some insight into some of the aspects of building a user list as I feel it'd actually hurt as many people as it might help. The other is I'm barely able to keep up with calls and emails (let alone stuff like family time, mowing my 2' tall yard, or eating an occassional dinner thats still hot 8^o

Hope this helps.
Jim


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

thanks for the insights jim! i know what you mean about being busy( i have the 2 foot high yard syndrome as well).thanks again for your help!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

I keep telling my wife that tall grass uses less water and that lawnmowers are so dirty to run and it's not my sloth but desire to save the planet in not mowing it  but at this point her look tells me I'd better take care of it soon or else Thing that sucks is I have 2 meeting at the shop this weekend and just don't know where I'm to find the time Anyone out there got another good reason not to cut the grass?? LMAO
Had fun
Jim
PS: I know I could just pay someone to do it but that takes the fun out of coming up with better excuses


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Robomower: http://www.friendlyrobotics.com/


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Hi-Torque. I've been trying to get ahold of you. I need some parts. Check your PMs.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Lazzer

Wrote you back the other day, Looks like we both need to look up and right a bit more often. To be honest, it's an area I don't tend to look at and will try harder ut the best way for me is via my Yahoo direct email. Sorry for the delay but I did reply 8^)
Cya
Jim


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## dc stang (Jun 14, 2008)

*New guy, question about Hyster/Ge forklift motor*

Hey guys, looking to build EV Mustang (79) with 4 speed manual trans. I found a friend that has a beast of a motor out of a Hyster forklift. Does anyone know anything about this motor 36 volt, Hyster #CJ42-267 sn 189734. It is a GE motor, it is about 11.5" acrost and maybe 20" long has shafts out both ends (looks like a friction brake on one end) and 4 terminals/ lugs for power, the shaft looks to be maybe 2" in dia. Quite the beast and most likley weighs over 200lbs can't tell for sure may be 300. any help would be great. I can probably get it for a song. He thinks it was rebuilt before he got it. Thanks!!!!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Stang

That's more than enough motor to drive your setup. If anything maybe more than you need in fact. Being EVeryone's battery limited in general you'd probably prefer to carry an extra hundred pounds (or more with this motor) in battery than in motor weight. That said, if it's a good buy and in good order snatch it up. Look through previous posts in that you'll need to advance the brush timing for higher voltage use.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## dc stang (Jun 14, 2008)

Thanks Hi Torque!
I'm thinking I could probably pick it up for around $100. The guys a good friend and he has had it setting around for a few years. He picked it up when a local factory closed down. We both worked in the maint department and it was a backup for our main truck so the condition is probably quite good. I will inspect it closer to be sure. So the motor is really over kill? Meaning I more then likeley could never pack enough batteries in the car to utilize the full potential of the motor. Current wise I assume that It will only draw what it needs to move the car down the road so it truley becomes a weight issue. I will check the posts on advancing the timming. The shafts on both ends could make it nice to run a power stering pump and maybe a vac. pump. Thanks for the reply. Any sugestions in the size controller required for this type motor.

Thanks!!!


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Jim,
Another question I've thought a lot about, but forgot to ask: Is there a center bearing in the siamese motors? Seems like a lot of trouble to put one in, but maybe necessary? And how about siamese triplets or quadrulets? How far could we go here? Just thinking out loud...

Thanks!
Alan


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Stang

Volts = speed, and amps= torque, so the higher the rating on the controller the better performance you'll get. You do have to remember that the better the performance, the shorter your range gets though.

Hey Big

Yep the Siamese motors have a middle support bearing and yeah, it's a bit of a hassle but a neccessary one, as the shaft would warp and allow the armature to rub the pole shoes. This is already happening with the guys running hard and fast as I've seen rubbing on both White Zombies motor and Killacycles. It's one of the reasons I went with the Impulse9's for the 9" version as they have a much thicker shaft (and keyed, for a better press on). I was able to increase the commutator bore on the drive side as well to 1.750 (all the way to the lamination of the drive side armature) for as stout a shaft as can be crunched into it 8^)

As to trips and quads, ect, I've got a design in my head of stackable motors using splined male and female shafts where they'd stack and bolt together without increasing length via couplers, but haven't had the funds to pursue it yet Money and time, sucks when you have niether
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## roguesoul (May 3, 2008)

Two questions I have. 1) A motor is using 48V and spinning at 1644rpm, driving a car to 35mph. Question, How many volts do I need to spin the motor to 3022rpm? I think there is a formula, however I'm not to good with math.
2) If I needed 96V for the 1st. question, how much advance would my, currently, un-advanced motor need? I'm guessing it would need more then 0 but less then 10 degrees? 10 degrees being the amount required for 120V. How is the needed degree of advancement determined? 

Three questions actually. Thanks for any help.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Roguesoul

Ive been taught it takes eight times the energy to double ones speed, but, I know it wouldn't take 384 volts, lol, so I'm honestly not the math guy either so I'll focus on question two

As to question two.

Advance is needed to protect the motor from sever arcing termed "flashover" and can damage the motors brush rigging. By advancing the brushes you line them up with where you think the fields will be warped over to so when you're warping the fields over (by over-volting the motor) the brushes are in line with the field magnetics.

By advancing the brushes you've protected your motor but it's become less eff, and has less torque than if the brushes were set neutral though.
It wasn't long after I got involved with EV's that I saw EVeryone was locked into a set advancement (most at 10 degrees and the Warp motors at 12.5 degrees) and saw that some using lower voltages (and using Warp motor) were in fact over advanved, while some using a 10 degree (and high voltages) were under-advanced.

Normally this isn't a huge problem other than eff, but enough of an issue I created adjustable brush timing for the 6.7's, 8's and 9" motors where people could test and tune their motor for their voltages and loads. Data still needs to be collected but there's no doubt that a properly timed motor will net you better results than being locked into a set position.

That said, if I were you, I'd probably error to the side of caution and advance your motor toward the 10 degree area (specially since I have no idea what motor you're actually using, lol.) where if you wanted to bump to lets say 120 volts later in life you'd be good still. The problem lies in that once you've drilled holes for a particular advancement, doing a small increase doesn't allow for a new hole to be drilled (as in the hole to do a 7 degree might now allow a new hole at 10) and again another reason I cameup with my adjustable timing rings.
Well, that's about all the time I have for this morning.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Jim, did you get my email?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

roguesoul said:


> Two questions I have. 1) A motor is using 48V and spinning at 1644rpm, driving a car to 35mph. Question, How many volts do I need to spin the motor to 3022rpm? I think there is a formula, however I'm not to good with math.


Hey roguesoul,

I see Jim addressed the easy question  I'll give the other question a go.

The motor RPM is approximately proportional to the applied voltage for a given load. So the easy answer is 48V * (3022/1644) = 88.2V. But life isn't so easy. You mention "driving a car at 35mph". So I assume you want to increase the car's speed. When you do that, the "given load" isn't "given" anymore. Increasing the vehicle speed will increase the load. And not in a linear fashion. Due to aerodynamics, it will look like a fan load, where power increases to the cube of speed. Torque to the square of speed. This increase in load means that the motor will slow down, especially if it is series wound.

So, what you really need to do to calculate the voltage increase is get the motor characteristic curve (speed torque graph) and plot on it your load curve (for the vehicle). Two things you probably don't have. But if you can get these, then you could get a pretty fair estimate for the voltage required. You also have to include the battery voltage droop and use the motor terminal voltage for the calculations.

You can always go higher in voltage and use the controller to back off when your desired speed is reached. But if your intent is to increase a 35mph vehicle to 65 mph, you'll need something like 6 times the power. Meaning a bigger motor most likely.

Regards,

major


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> The motor RPM is approximately proportional to the applied voltage for a given load. So the easy answer is 48V * (3022/1644) = 88.2V. But life isn't so easy. You mention "driving a car at 35mph". So I assume you want to increase the car's speed. When you do that, the "given load" isn't "given" anymore. Increasing the vehicle speed will increase the load. *And not in a linear fashion. Due to aerodynamics, it will look like a fan load, where power increases to the cube of speed. Torque to the square of speed. This increase in load means that the motor will slow down, especially if it is series* *wound.*


I am shocked that you knew that! A lot of people do not know about fan loads. Lots of motors have went to the grave due to people letting their fan "_Breathe easier_" as they tell me, where in reality the motor is getting strained and eventually burns up. Sorry If I came off smart a** in those posts way back about motor torque curves.


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## OnlineAtvSalvage (May 28, 2008)

Hey Jim.

I'm getting ready to convert my 1947 Willys to an EV. I kinda bought this motor on a whim off of ebay. Any way you can tell me if it will be all right to use. I am planning on a 96v system(if the motor will handle it).I only have the pics off the ad, but can post more once i get it in. It is a an aircraft starter / generator. The guy told me it was 13" long (not counting the end of the shaft) and 7" wide. I know it is on the small side , but was thinking since the willys only weighs 2,300 lb it may work.

















Thanks for your time in answering. I am self employed also and understand the time it takes to answer emails and questions daily.

Thanks
Clay Burks
www.OnlineAtvSalvage.com


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Clay

There are a few guys using aircraft starter and they seem to do okay but I've yet to see one so my input isn't huge. Have you looked at the EV photo album?? Lots of EV's there to look at and you can search via part types so see if aircraft starters are listed.

I did a small 6.7" ADC motor for Damon Henry (search Datsun or Washington) and it's working very well (EVen has a new 1000 amp controller on it now but he is blower cooling it.

EV photo album is a easy Google search or linked from my site (EV album)
hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Hi Jim:

I'm new to this forum. I wish I had known about it long ago.

I have a 1985 Fiero that I put a BIG caterpillar M50 motor in. It barely clears the transaxle, but nothing rubs, so it's all good. So far I have had it up to 35 MPH using four 115 amp deep cycle batteries from WalMart. My controller is a Curtis 400 amp 48 volt from a Yamaha golf cart. At max speed the motor pulls between 120 and 160 amps, but on acceleration from a stop I've seen 408 amps (very briefly.)

The motor tag says:
CATERPILLAR
TYPE 'E' PART NUMBER 300635
TYPE 'EE' PART NUMBER (blank)
SERIAL NO MP8-177-MP
DC VOLTS 36/48 INSUL CLASS H
NP36A402025 GENERAL ELECTRIC

I am concerned that this big motor will subtract from the potential range of my battery pack. Perhaps I should consider using it in a full size van, or something capable of hauling more batteries?

If I stay with this one, how difficult should it be to advance the brushes, as I increase my voltage? (I've been taking baby steps for now.) The thought of pulling this motor out does not appeal to me, but I'm aware I may have to do it.

Thanks for your help, Jim (or anyone else with information.) You're all quite the resource. MIKE

http://www.evalbum.com/1735


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

When you say "big" how big is big ? weight ? diameter ? length ? J.W.


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

By big I mean 12" diameter, 15" long, and so heavy it takes two strong men to pick it up.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Dog

You've probably got more motor than you really need on it. In general hough I think most of us deal with what we have to work with (same applys to me, lol). To advance it rotate the brush end plate 10 degrees, mark the hole placement, remove plate and drill and tap new mount holes.
Jim


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## bupert1 (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi very new person here might be able to get my hands on a sit on forklift with a ev-100 system in it now my old man has lots of parts for controler and such he was a trained serves man for that and what he called a ev-1 and the older non comuterized models before retire would this be a good starter kit dads also a machineist and welder with a milling machine and lathe in his shop so he could do the mounts and adapter plate to the tranny and donner car is a free to me ford fiesta looks like a VW made for ford.


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## Yellowkp (Jun 14, 2008)

Well I've just spent the last couple of hours reading this whole thread, by the sound of it my one is massive! my motor i mean! It's 14 1/2 inches long and 11 inches in dia.(out of a lansing Bagnel forklift, British i think) So I have a feelin that it will have no problem moving a 800kg car.....not including battery weight. So now i have to figure how to control and feed the beast.....I have all the electric contactors, capasitors ect. basicly all the control hardware but i don't think it would be right for use in an EV. The motor was connected to a driveshaft so it's got a flange bolted directly to the output shaft, easy coupling to a gearbox! I'm very excited!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi all. Great to find this site. I've just spent several hours hoovering up information and am hungry for more  I came across this motor recently on eBay and snapped it up. Now I'm wondering what I've got and what it's capable of. It turned out the seller had a few of them, so I bought two, just in case...

It's army surplus, 7.25 inch diameter and roughly 14 inches long, although a good two inches of that is taken up by the internal fan. It has a keyed taper at the drive end and a 25 mm plain shaft at the other. Continuous rating 36V, 130A, 2500 rpm. It weighs just under 80 pounds.

Can anyone, especially Jim, help me with a few questions?

The way the brushes are set at an angle to the commutator it looks as if the motor is designed to run counterclockwise (CCDE). Is that right?

Do you think it would be possible to push this motor to 108V if I advance the timing?

Am I right in thinking I need to rotate the brush plate clockwise, as seen in the photo. Would 7-8 degrees make a good starting point?

Many thanks for any advice you can offer.
Malcolm Berry


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi all. Great to find this site. I've just spent several hours hoovering up information and am hungry for more  I came across this motor recently on eBay and snapped it up. Now I'm wondering what I've got and what it's capable of. It turned out the seller had a few of them, so I bought two, just in case...
> 
> It's army surplus, 7.25 inch diameter and roughly 14 inches long, although a good two inches of that is taken up by the internal fan. It has a keyed taper at the drive end and a 25 mm plain shaft at the other. Continuous rating 36V, 130A, 2500 rpm. It weighs just under 80 pounds.
> 
> ...


I am no expect, but that looks like a pretty decent motor. It's 6 HP continuous @ 36 volts, so it would probably drive a small car no problem. My guess is that it could do 96 volts or more with the proper advancing, and it has some serious brushes to it.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Malcom
First off welcome aboard. As to your opening statement here:

Hi all. Great to find this site. I've just spent several hours hoovering up information and am hungry for more 

I've been doing motors feels like all my life (EV related motors just the last few) and honestly I feel the same way 

As to your motor, that's a nice diamond you got there and it'll do a small conversion. You might plan on blower cooling it for a longer duty cycle. Check out Damon Henry's EV album as noted on a previous post as he's using a small motor than this (at most same size as) with a Logisystem 1000K controller at 96 volts and it'll light up his Datsun's truck tires and does 75 MPH.

I'd advance it 10 degrees where that'd take you to 120 volts. How high a voltage you can throw on "each" motor type is unknown as there is just no data, which I hunger for more, which leads full circle and back to your opening line 

Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Jim!
Hooray for me! I finally figured out how to put (kinda fuzzy) pictures on the page...It took me over a week - Aren't I the hot stuff? Anyway, these are the motors I would like to siamese for a really lightweight commuter vehicle. They are quite small, I guess, but maybe with series coupled to start, then parallel to cruise, it might be OK? The brushes appear to be at a neutral setting with separate circuits for the armature and field - I assume for reversing? What do you think? BTW - They weigh 28lbs. apiece without the end bearing caps. Also, they are identical motors; I have a total of four. What is the "Class H" rating all about? Thanks for all your input!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks for the welcome and the advice! Really appreciate you taking the time Jim, I know you must be pretty busy. There are three of us EV tinkerers here in the UK who have each bought one or more of these motors, so I'll pass your advice on and post news of our builds when we've made some progress. My plan so far is to convert an old Mini. Just got to decide whether to use one or two motors...


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

That last pic looks like a sepex winding. Seperatly excited.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Big

I've not worked on those exact ADC motors but have done a number of ones very close to them. These are a sep-ex motors and not series wound which might limit you concerning the controller options. The biggest issue with these motors are the smaller wire they use for the armature and on the ones I'm seeing the armature failure rate is super high. Before I got further involved in fitting them in, I'd make sure all the armatures are in fact still good.

The second issue is they are small, where a pair would be needed to make the mass of a standard 4 brushed 6.7" motor (50 to 60 lbs) and all 4 to equal the mass of an ADC8 or Impulse 9 (lets call it 3 for an 8 brushed 7" motor like Malcolm found.

I'm not saying they couldn't be used, but with the failure rate of the armatures (I've seen) and the amount of effort it'll take to install and use them, I'm thinking that you'd be better off using somethng different, and throwing a pair of these onto a Go-kart or sit down scooter. Just stuff like no fan adds to stuff becoming an issue, like having to blower cool four motors. In as much as it sucks to throw you out bummer news, I do my best to prevent you all from having to take the full semester of hard knocks.
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> What is the "Class H" rating all about? Thanks for all your input!


That is the temperature rating of the enamel resin coating on the copper conductors. Class H is rated to work up to temperatures of 180C (356F). Nearly all severe duty rated motors either use class F or H.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Dennis said:


> That is the temperature rating of the enamel resin coating on the copper conductors. Class H is rated to work up to temperatures of 180C (356F). Nearly all severe duty rated motors either use class F or H.


Do you have a link or a list of the ratings?


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Guys!
Thanks for all your input & encouragement - I think I'll start out with a pair of oversized electric roller skates! I'm not sure how well I'll be able to keep my balance at my age, but hey, what's life without a little excitement!?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Big

I'm not sure about roller skates, but a pair would make a nice Go-Kart, and am thinking that one might do fairly well on a sit down scooter, maybe an old moped.

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

BigAlum said:


> what's life without a little excitement!?


...Marriage


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Amen on the marriage deal...It'll be 37 years for me if I make it thru September (Sounds like a good name for a song). I can hardly remember _NOT_ being married, but I can remember lots of times I almost wasn't.


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Jim!
I've been studying your website again, particularly the rebuild and cleanup sections and have noticed that the field windings appear to be composed of heavy flat wire on most of these modified motors, while the armature windings have much smaller round-wire windings. Is this typical of forklift or other severe-duty type motors? Obviously, the wide flat wire can really carry the amperage, but if the motor is series-wound, doesn't the current also pass through the small wire, or am I missing something here? Are your motors actually SepEx in operation? I would think that if you're reversing with adjustable brush timing, that it is still series-wound (still thinking siamese 8" & 9"). I'm all in a quandry here.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Big

What do you mean studying?? I built the site to just put up pretty pictures

Armatures do tend to use smaller wire than what's used in the fields, but in most of the pic's I've posted (if not all) are in fact wound with rectangle wire just smaller than what you see in the fields. You have to remember that there is another wire that sits beneath the top winding which together add up to the size of the coils. In sep-ex, the coils are small wire with lots of turns and is a much smaller wire than used in the armature. In general the different sizes and turns create different characteristics and why you go to school and become an EE to understand them which I did not

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## robau (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi All
Anyone have any idea on this motor. ie specs etc or have you seen one before?

All I have from the name plate is:

SY0 -15A
45 volts
MNO:1D51 51
Shinko Electric Co LTD
Japan


Weight 53 kg on the bathroom scales.
Their website seems to indicate they make electric vehicles of various types.









Size









Com








Cross section and yes a female shaft








Covers on view.


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## avn-tech (Jun 16, 2008)

Group,

There is a forklift scrap yard about 200' away from my hanger. I stopped in and talked with him the other day, and he said I could have anything I needed form his yard for my project for $400 (motor, controlers, charger, wiring, ect).

He showed me several clark electric forklifts with motors (apear to be 12"-13" dia). Would these be good to use in an S-10 conversion? I will try and get more info this week.

Thanks


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi all
I'm planning to build an EV from a mid sized car and have just found a nice fork lift motor, I think  but was hoping for some expert opinions. 
My plan is to run it on 120V and as many AH I can fit 
it's 7.5" dia by 15,3" (19x39cm) Shaft is 0,708" (18mm)
What do you think?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That shaft may be problematic to hook up.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Rob and Doc

Both of those motors would do well (specially Doc’s as it’s at least a 6” laminated stack length)(plus I’m more familiar with the Prestolite) but as noted, the shafts are going to be your biggest issues. For Doc, I could reshaft the armature with a 1 1/8th” shaft that’d make it right as rain 8^) (I have no idea what bore size the other is).

As noted in this thread you’ll need to advance the timing in addition to working out the shaft aspect and at that point you’d be looking good.

avn-tech

As to your question, in general Everyone’s battery limited so carrying around more motor than needed detracts from your ability to pack more batteries. That said, I’m sure a 12” motor would be more motor than you’d actually need On a plus side, using the bigger drive motors they tend to have better suited shafts than the pump motors like Rob and Doc have found, so in some ways it’s a bit of a catch 22 depending on make and model.
Hope this helps, did I get Everyone?
Cya

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

Thanks Jim
Are you saying that the problem is the dia of the shaft or the small length and shape? 

/Doc


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Doc said:


> Are you saying that the problem is the dia of the shaft or the small length and shape?


hahahahahaha


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Doc

I asked the wife and she said all of the above  
I see someone beat me to a snicker but I couldn't resist 
You'd probably be surprised how many shaft related emails my spam filter throws out, lmao!

Joking aside, it's all three aspects. Depending on sme things you might be able to extend it and size the bearing up in the ID (6305 to a 6206)(same OD, but the 6206 has a larger ID) where you could stub out with a 1 1/8th keyed male type. With the torque these motors will produce you'll want to sleeve over as much existing shaft as you can for as good a bite as you can get, to keep it stout and stiff 

Cya
Jim Husted


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi
I'm glad I can amuse you guys 
Especially since english is not my first language 

Thanks Jim, I showed the motor to a mech. eng. this morning and he was thinking along the same lines, but thought he might need a days work to get it right. So I'll try and find another motor first, before spending money on this one.
/Doc


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## Yellowkp (Jun 14, 2008)

these are pics of my motor......any thoughts on if it's up to the task? needs a good clean up though, maybe better pictures required. i only had my phone on me at the time so not too bad i thought


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Doc

First off, no offence intended, just having a bit of fun 
I was wondering where you're located?

Yellow,
The motor looks big enough but I noticed it's just a 4 brushed motor. It's also a motor I don't recognize either, so I won't have a lot of insight on it.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## kcblkeeley (May 8, 2008)

I got two of these 36v forklift motors today. What do you guys think? Are they enough oomph to push a small car? one is new (old stock) and the other 9 years used. I have 2 sets of new brushes that came with them. No matter what, I didn't get screwed because they are free. They are double shaft (though one shaft/gear looks like an ice cream cone swirled)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some better pictures might help, as well as dimensions and weight.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey KC

EVen at 9 years old it's a newer (late model Prestolite) that in as much as I recognize the drive plate from the pic don't/can't recall this motor from memory. Better pics are needed as well as their weight and length. 

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Yellowkp (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Yellow,
> The motor looks big enough but I noticed it's just a 4 brushed motor. It's also a motor I don't recognize either, so I won't have a lot of insight on it.
> 
> Cya
> ...


It's out of a lansing bagnal (british) forklift fore 5.2 the motor is the size of a house! lol is 4 brushes bad?? Just today I've been offered another couple of motors today......we'll see what they look like too!  If it's for free it's for me!!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Yellow

First off if you think that monsters big you need to come pick a fight with some of the beasts I get to push around 

As to the 4 brush statement.
Commutation is (usually) the biggest limiting factor when choosing a motor. The larger the comm/brush footprint is the more amps it can chug. Like in any system, it's only as strong as it's weakest link, so in using this motor here, it's huge. but has smaller brush/comm area than a smaller 8 brushed motor. That said, I doubt you'd tax those brushes beyong their limit (unless you plan on hotrodding) so the other issue with this motor becomes the surplus weight you'd be carrying around since it's as big as a house  Last I checked motor homes don't get good milage 

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Yellowkp (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Yellow
> 
> First off if you think that monsters big you need to come pick a fight with some of the beasts I get to push around
> 
> ...


hahahahaha jim, thats damn funny! I have a mate in the local train workshop, he said the same thing about the motors size....thanks for the info on the com/brush footprint, as i'm just startin out my plans are not as yet set in concrete. so i'll keep lookin,I'm the kinda guy who has things quite often fall into my lap.(not so good if it's heavy or hot!)  but for future reference i always plan on hotrodding! I can't leave anything standard/stock because then its just like someone elses!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Yellow

Seeing that you're looking to break out the power now and again, I'd suggest you look for something smaller in diameter (quicker rotational spin up) as well as something with the biggest brushes you have access to 
I'm thinking it'll keep me from having to start a "how to repair my abused lift motor" thread 

If you've been to my site, you know I try to break out of the box any time I can, but there's something to be said about proven methods. My basic advice for anyone building their first EV it's, convert the car you really want to drive, and keep things simple and easy, as there are almost always pitfalls along the way (such is life really) so when you keep the goals simple there's just less than can go wrong, and you end up like this ----> and not like this ---- or this ----> and if you end up having a plasmaboy moment maybe this ---->

That said, if nothing better comes along it'd do and probably do fairly well as an EV motor, but I'm betting you'll have something drop by that'd suit your needs a bit better so like the spider be patient my precious and allow time for a better victim... I mean donor motor 
Cya
Jim


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Doc
> 
> First off, no offence intended, just having a bit of fun


None taken 



Hi Torque Electric said:


> I was wondering where you're located?


I'm in Sweden.
I am totaly hopeless on cars and I'm planing to build an electric one...
So I realy appreciate all you guys on this forum and I hope I can be of some help on the electronics parts since I'm an EE and will build the motor controlls for my car my self.

/Doc


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## BigAlum (Jun 12, 2008)

OOOOOOH, Doc!

Sweden!? I always wanted a Volvo Sportwagon. Now that would make a SWEET EV!!! Also, I'm surprised you can follow these posts, as there is a lot of misspelling here. Welcome...


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

BigAlum said:


> OOOOOOH, Doc!
> 
> Sweden!? I always wanted a Volvo Sportwagon. Now that would make a SWEET EV!!! Also, I'm surprised you can follow these posts, as there is a lot of misspelling here. Welcome...


He he I've had one, sold it 6 month ago for a Audi 1.2TDI 90mpg 
The Volvo C70 is sure a nice car, 260hp  but it's about 3600lb so it would make a very heavy EV

/Doc


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## Yellowkp (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Yellow
> 
> Seeing that you're looking to break out the power now and again, I'd suggest you look for something smaller in diameter (quicker rotational spin up) as well as something with the biggest brushes you have access to
> I'm thinking it'll keep me from having to start a "how to repair my abused lift motor" thread
> ...


ok jim, all sounds like very good advise! I do have a car in mind its a small rwd toyota weighs 750kg (1650lbs) soaking wet, I've had many in my time and they're very easy to get motivated and handle very well with little work. so i'm thinkin it would make a good candidate. so the idea about less rotational weight (same idea with a lightened flywheel for a performance ICE) quicker acceleration, stands to reason! ok cool, well I'll have a look at the other forklift i've been offered and see what that one is like. I do have a pump motor but it's only 6.5kw(8.7hp) and i'm thinkin it's way too light weight! but thanks again for your wisdom


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## robau (Jun 26, 2008)

Ahh thanks for your reply. I thought no one was here for a bit but then where was I when you all turned up.

I'm just wondering if 45volts is too low to be practicle. Would I need shares in a copper mine to cable it all and as for controlers?????? Any estimates on peak current draw?

I'll have to clean it up, do some insulation testing and check if brush timeing is a possabiltiy.

Another question..... am I wasting my time due lack of replacement brush availabiltiy or are there plenty of generic brushes out there?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

robau said:


> I'm just wondering if 45volts is too low to be practicle.


To give you -some- idea. A 144v system with a 500a controller is 72kw. To make that from 45v you need 1600a.


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## robau (Jun 26, 2008)

I was hopeing it would be somewhere in the 40 to 45 kw range but I guess I realy need to do a stalled motor current test right????

1000 amps+ is a bit over the top


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

robau said:


> I was hopeing it would be somewhere in the 40 to 45 kw range but I guess I realy need to do a stalled motor current test right????
> 
> 1000 amps+ is a bit over the top


No, just do some math. Watts=volts*amps. If you want 45kw out of 45v you need 1000amps. 45v*1000a=45,000w. To pull a continous 1000a at any usuable rpm you probably need a 12v motor. It'll fry in the long run. My own rule I use is to cram as many batteries as I can into a vehicle and rely on voltage to make the power, not current. Current eats batteries.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Rob

I didn't see your goals for this motor (and can't recall what it looks like) but did want to add that controllers are rated full amps and not continious amps so a 1000 amp controller won't put out 1000 amps (nor will a motor draw that as well) but if you could get your hands on a second core you could pop two 600 amp controller on them as an idea. Seems like EVen using a pair of forklift 48 volt 400 amp controller (AKA pretty available and some what cheap) would almost net you that 1000 amps peak but you'd need to get two like cores to take advantage of a second controller. The real plus side is you get twice the brushes and commutator to take the load where lets say two 55 lbs lift motors are coupled together they make the mass of an ADC8 with more brush area to boot. Now, an ADC8 would be a bit more eff and bit less effort to install, but for people looking to eat for cheap per se it's something that really has a lot of merit.

As to brushes, there are just tons of designs where even if you had to modify a set by sanding it down to fit (worst case) it's probably the least of your worries at this point (unless your motor's are completely worn.

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

hey jim (or anyone else who knows...)

how does this motor look...

http://cgi.ebay.com/caterpillar-ele...2336666QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

im going for efficiency, so how would that compare to an ADC 9"?
do you know if its series wound?

i think i might call the guy and offer like 400 cause it has been up there forever... worth it?

theres another promising one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/caterpillar-ele...2339402QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Gerd

I've had a couple people ask me about this motor. It's a bit on the heavy side, and I've never been a big fan of the Cat built motors. This one's had some repair work (paint isn't OEM) but it's hard to say what condition it's in from the small pic they've offered.
Sorry I can't offer more info.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Doc said:


> I'm in Sweden.


Ooo. Fellow swede! Where in Sweden? I live pretty close to Linköping myself.


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## Doc (Jul 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> Ooo. Fellow swede! Where in Sweden? I live pretty close to Linköping myself.


I'm in Halmstad, EV builders seams to be rare in Sweden, I've only found this guy http://www.ev-elbil.se/index.html
Do you know of any others?

Interesting reading on your web site, I didn't know about the ways to get arround the pre 98 rule, good thing I havn't found a car yet


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Doc said:


> Interesting reading on your web site, I didn't know about the ways to get arround the pre 98 rule, good thing I havn't found a car yet


Well, as long as you go for EV there's no exhaust and thus no problems. However, don't take my word for it, talk with "bilprovningen" yourself and ask. Also check with http://www.sfro.com/, probably also good guys to talk to.

Right now I'm busy building a dog house and after that I have to fix the garage before I can start converting. That's why I haven't done much planning yet, it's still pretty far off unfortunately. Tsk. I bet you'll beat me to it.


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## Drizzle (Jun 17, 2008)

Greetings to all you Swedes. My wife is from Norway -- but I know you won't hold that against her!!  (She did work a summer in Southwest Sweden while we were dating...)

Okay, I finally feel like I'm getting my feet wet. I got a motor today!!  I am excited to finally feel like I'm beginning to make some forward progress. I'll post the couple of pictures I have so far and hope not to get told I've made some colossal blunder in my newbie ignorance. I know these pictures aren't too great, but I'll get some better ones up in the next day or two.

















This motor is a Goliath, but for the $500 I paid for it, I think I'll be happy with it. It is an 11-inch Hitachi motor out of a Nissan forklift. It has four 2-brush sets, and as you can see, the commutator has just been turned. 

It is going in my '96 Ford Probe donor vehicle which I finally got the ICE completely removed from YESTERDAY!  

Unless I encounter some information that causes me to question the wisdom of this choice, I plan to run it with a Belktronix 144V system, using -- as required by that system -- twelve 12V AGM batteries. 

My commute is 21 miles each way, and I can charge while at work. I am hoping that by reaching up to the 144V system, rather than settling for the 120V one, that I can see a functional range of at least 30 miles. I'll be thrilled if I get 40.

As I said, I'll get some more pictures of the motor posted in the next day or two -- and if Jim is lurking between now and then, are there any particular shots that you'd like to see to assess the wisdom of my purchase, and to give me any advice as to corrections I need to make? I will be replacing the brushes before it goes into the car, and have been considering replacing the bearings as well, just as a preventative measure. I know I'll need to advance the brushes...

Like others have expressed, I am deeply grateful for the rich benefit of your experience made so freely available to us here. I don't want to presume upon that generosity, but if you find time, I'd really appreciate your perspective. I am very new to this idea and know little about EVs so far, but look forward to learning. (I'm not afraid of new things -- I knew next to nothing about Diesel engines when I got the bug to convert our Diesel Suburban to run on Veggie Oil a couple of years ago. But I now have 45,000 very successful miles on that project with several thousand dollars saved in fuel expenses, along with a vastly expanded sphere of knowledge and experience as well!)

I'm really enjoying hanging out and learning from y'all here!
Drizzle


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Drizzle

It's a really nice find actually. Nisson installs good motors in their lifts but I can't zoom in on these pics to see what make it might be. The Nippon and Mediensa (I know I didn't spell that right) motors are really well built motors. Size wise it's not to big yet big enough to do just about anything you're apt to 8^)

Sounds like you ran into a nice find, and your goals are realistic and I believe you'll create a fine EV. Make sure to advance the brush timing (if you're looking to go 144 volt) to a little more than my stated 10 degrees, maybe match the Warp's 12.5 degrees so that you're less likely to flash it over from the higher voltage than it was originaly designed for.

Anyway, I noticed you got a red motor behind it as well... You holding out on us about the second motor 

Just send or post pics if you need further assistance, FWIW, you did good.
In fact, it looks like it has a steel core comm and the armature looks in great condition.

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Some times you're lucky. Yesterday I found out there's a scrap yard for fork lifts just a couple of km from where I live and he sell used spare parts! Suddenly the idea of building my own EV feels much more realistic when the motor won't cost me a 4 digit number in US dollars. 

So from all the reading on this splendid forum my focus and goal has shifted from saving lots of money, order a Warp 9" and Zilla-controller and get a S-10 as donor (ie the BIG approach) to getting a 6-7" truck motor, build my own PWM-controller (I mean, if I go all non-fancy PWM with an AVR and IGBT's and not much more it's not even hard) and probably settle for a smaller, and cheaper, car.

From thinking $20.000, or maybe even more total (which has a pretty lousy WAF) I now believe it might even be possible to get below $10.000 and still reach 50 MPH and a range of at least 30 miles (although 50 would be great). Maybe. Perhaps. At least I hope so. 

Still. It'll be a lot cheaper than >$3000 just for motor and controller. However, I still have to rebuild the garage to be able to harbor the project...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

6-7" motor sounds small to me.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 6-7" motor sounds small to me.


Even for a pretty small car? I'm thinking maybe a Volvo 440 or 460 (they're awfully cheap in Sweden) or something similar in size. Biggest problem will be to find one that isn't totally rusted to pieces though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_440

So should I go for 8" or so, or what would you recommend? I don't need killer performance, but it's nice if it doesn't take an afternoon getting to 50 MPH...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you would be much happier with an 8 inch. My personal feeling is get the biggest motor you can reasonably afford and skimp on everything else if you need to, because the motor is the hardest thing to upgrade in the future and the larger motor is more robust in the long run. It's a lot easier to wire up a better controller or add more batteries in the future than make new motor mounts and transmission adapters.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Point, even if I mostly see this project as a prototype for better tries later on. 

Ok, so 6" might be on the small side and I should aim for somewhere around 8" even if I can accept a bit of a sluggish response. If nothing else, I think I can always sell the car later to friends that lives in the city and want a car for shorter trips but doesn't like the running cost for an ICE.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey JR

In many ways I agree with your statement to invest in a "properly" sized motor. That doesn't really mean it needs to be huge though either. In many ways it's a bit like Goldielocks, this motor's to big, that motors to small, Ahhh this motor's just right 

Being EVeryone's battery limited carrying to much motor just adds weight to your conversion. If blower cooled smaller motors can be used very well if run through the tranny and gears used. Damon Henry's little 6.7" motor (about 70 lbs) is just happy as a peach in his Datsun truck (on the EV album search via WA. or Datsun) and he's using a Logi 1000 amp controller  

He just pulled his blower cover and sent me pics just to make sure he wasn't hurting it. The brush leads weren't EVen pink, and in fact in perfect shape and condition.

I'm just saying that people don't need to go find the biggest lift motor they can find to do a nice job.

Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Damon Henry's little 6.7" motor (about 70 lbs) is just happy as a peach in his Datsun truck (on the EV album search via WA. or Datsun) and he's using a Logi 1000 amp controller


Nice stunt! 

How heavy is his truck? Is it on evalbum or anywhere else where I can read about it?

I guess the real trick here is the brushes, if they're tiny the motor will blow to Kingdom Come if I give it hundreds of Amperes, right? That's the really weak spot if I've understood this thread right. Is there any way you can tell if it'll work or not without dismantling the motor?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Qer

In as much as it's a small motor it's an 8 brushed ADC motor, so you're right that brush mass and comm size play a huge role. Here's a link to his EV page:
http://www.evalbum.com/1524
Cya
Jim

I also have this motor listed on my last blog on my site for motor pics

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/


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## Drizzle (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Drizzle
> 
> It's a really nice find actually. Nisson installs good motors in their lifts but I can't zoom in on these pics to see what make it might be. The Nippon and Mediensa (I know I didn't spell that right) motors are really well built motors. Size wise it's not to big yet big enough to do just about anything you're apt to 8^)
> 
> Sounds like you ran into a nice find, and your goals are realistic and I believe you'll create a fine EV. Make sure to advance the brush timing (if you're looking to go 144 volt) to a little more than my stated 10 degrees, maybe match the Warp's 12.5 degrees so that you're less likely to flash it over from the higher voltage than it was originaly designed for.


Thank you!

I've included a pic of the label attached to the motor case below. This shows the make and model info fairly clearly. I'm assuming the output figure is "10Kw" at 48 volts. When I increase the voltage to 144V, do I need to worry about adding any extra cooling? I will not have any long or steep hills in the area I'll be using this car in, and have no intention of doing anything like racing or impressing the local teenagers... 




Hi Torque Electric said:


> Anyway, I noticed you got a red motor behind it as well... You holding out on us about the second motor


That photo was taken by the guy I bought the motor from while it was still in HIS garage. That nice GE 11-inch motor (red) is his... 



Hi Torque Electric said:


> Just send or post pics if you need further assistance, FWIW, you did good.
> In fact, it looks like it has a steel core comm and the armature looks in great condition.
> 
> Cya
> ...


Thanks again! I've got a couple more questions concerning the last two pictures below -- in the first one, do I need to be concerned with the broken insulators on the two power lugs (studs? I'm still learning electrical terminology) shown there?

My second question is how will the power supply be 'wired' to these four lugs in the third picture? And which lugs would I apply 12V power to in order to test the motor?

Oh, and one more question.... Where might I locate a nice screen/cage to wrap around the comm openings to keep out debris and 'critters'??

As always, I appreciate your input and time!

Cheers,
Drizzle


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Drizzle

Hitachi also makes a really good motor (the others were Toyota based motors)(My bad 8^) Those glued in terminal posts are a weak area on these motors though. If they are not grounded (shorted to the frame) than you can use some non-conductive glue and justpatch up the missing area. If it has gone to ground (use an ohm meter) than you can swap those out with a brass post and insulation material (you'll have to do some research to find them in your area)(worst case bore the holes out a bit and steal your buddy's GE screw type terminal posts from that red motor as they'd work just fine 

To test the motor connect pos+ to one of the "A" terminals (brush/ armature terminals)(those are the nes close together and by the brush windows) and the Neg- to one of the field terminals, and jump the remaining two (one"A" adn one"F") with each other. To reverse the motor just swap out the two "A" terminal cables with each other.

As to making a brush cover, any expanded sheet metal will work. You could also use just sheet metal and if you can get a hole punch just punch away on it, but it'd be labor intensive. Another option would be to steal one from another motr core you might happen to find like that red motor
Hope this helps
Jim


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## Drizzle (Jun 17, 2008)

Great! 

What do you think about any need for extra cooling??

Thanks again!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> As to making a brush cover, any expanded sheet metal will work. You could also use just sheet metal and if you can get a hole punch just punch away on it, but it'd be labor intensive. Another option would be to steal one from another motr core you might happen to find like that red motor
> Hope this helps
> Jim


What about window screen? I was thinking of trying some window screen with some air cleaner foam to help keep out dirt and moisture.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Drizzle

No extra cooling needed, you have King Kong pushing around a go-kart, it ain't going to EVen break a sweat. Now if you were using a little 6.7 spider monkey, I'd say yes cool it 
Cya
Jim


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey JR

Screen is just fine, other than it's pretty flexable and if it were to push into the brush window, you could short out on the brush leads so an outer, tougher skin would be needed, IMO. I get motors in from places that are really dirty and the motors will pick up grit and grim (leaking hydaulic hoses over the motors don't help 8^) and it'll cause grooving on the brushes and comm as the grit wears the softer materials (copper and carbon) down. Unless you live on a long dirt road I doubt you'll have issues as EVen in the lift world it takes years to happen with these units being run 2 maybe 3 shifts a day.

Of course, I've pulled a dead mouse or three from motors where they'd climbed inside at night cause it was all nice and warm so if you get a wiff of mouse BBQ, you might want to throw some screen on your motor

Cya
Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe I could find an automotive air cleaner with a 7.5 inch I.D. that could slide over the end of my motor


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

ok so i just bought a motor:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260262841202

will this work for my spitfire conversion? i want to run it at at least 144 volts. Some brush advancement is definitely in order...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll continue to play amateur motor expert  Size and weight seem decent, but I could not tell the brush setup, 4 brushes? If only 4 brushes they might not be able to handle high current. There may be other issues, hopefully Jim will stop by and check my work


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Gerd

Sure can't beat the price. Like JR said, hard to know if it's an 8 or 4 brushed motor but at that size, even if it's a four brushed motor they'd probably be bigger than ones from ADC or Prestolites I usually refer to. The frame looks familure but they come in lots of flavors and still look the same but feel this should do you nicely. If nothing else plan on blower cooling it.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

awesome, sounds promising... ill be posting more pictures when it arrives

thanks


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## Cberg (Jul 3, 2008)

Hey guys, i am new to the ev scene and i have a few questions>

Can anyone give me the specs for this motor, Raymond 570 207 200? I have access to it and i was thinking about using it on my ev. I have an old Rambler American Super 1958, that i want to use as my donor vehicle. the cars starting weight is 2400#. My goal is to get 30-40 miles with a max speed of 55.. Not sure what i will end up with, but you have to start somewhere.. 

would this be a good choice for my application?

any info would be greatly appreciated.
Chance


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Cberg

I can't remember the 570-207/200 from memory (know I've built them)(been a long time though) so I'd need to get some pics as I've not built one since opening my shop and have no data on them.
Jim


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

jim,do you have any opinion about possibly trying to siamese 2 6.7" motors? i didn't know if this was already asked,my apologies if it has been.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Joseph

I have, and in fact just bartered it to Eric (he does my shaft work (it's just slightly bigger than an L91) but it's pretty hard to make profit on one due to the extra work it takes. I'll post pics of it on my site if I can't find I have already which is but another on my to-do list 8^) If I can get really cheap cores I could possible do more, but I've been looking for someone close to me to test this one before making another. It's actually a cute little guy that should do pretty good through a tranny. Eric's planning 156 volts (probably limit the motor to 120 volts) and a Zilla1K so we'll see here soon I hope. As Eric's close and the parts are as inexpensive as it gets per se, it should prove a good testbed.

Jim


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

thanks jim,appreciate the quick answer.keep us posted on the results of that.


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

Hi, i've recently come across a large DC servo motor (ASR Servotron). its rated at 130V and 140A. I assume its possible to convert these to a normal DC motor by removing the encoder parts, but would it actually be a worth it?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> Hi, i've recently come across a large DC servo motor (ASR Servotron). its rated at 130V and 140A. I assume its possible to convert these to a normal DC motor by removing the encoder parts, but would it actually be a worth it?


Wow I need to get my hands on one of those. Post pics.


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> Wow I need to get my hands on one of those. Post pics.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=220263845874&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

comes with its own cooling fan too.


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## hertfordnc (Jul 30, 2008)

I have a lead on a motor from a 4000 lb Yale sit down forklift. $100 if I remove it. 

Any guesses on how much motor we might be talking about? 

Any challenges to removing it? 

Any other motors or parts on this thing that I should consider asking for? 

thanks


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=220263845874&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012
> 
> comes with its own cooling fan too.


oooooooooooooo papa likes


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> oooooooooooooo papa likes


ahh, i just re read the specs. when he says 6 inches between mounting bolts, i think he means just the corner ones , cause the shaft is only 2 1/4 long. looks like the motor is siginificantly smaller than i first thought. still, might be good for a motorbike or an electric assist hybrid

the name plate says the maximum rpm is 1500rpm. how maximum are these rating?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> the name plate says the maximum rpm is 1500rpm. how maximum are these rating?


Eventually, you'll find out... 

(sorry, couldn't help myself)


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> looks like the motor is siginificantly smaller than i first thought. still, might be good for a motorbike


Yup.  ...................


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

Qer said:


> Eventually, you'll find out...
> 
> (sorry, couldn't help myself)


1500rpm really is a bit to low for my liking. what defines the rpm limit? is the rpm/voltage relationship in DC motors similar to that of AC motors, in that more poles give a greater torque, but lower the speed?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> 1500rpm really is a bit to low for my liking. what defines the rpm limit? is the rpm/voltage relationship in DC motors similar to that of AC motors, in that more poles give a greater torque, but lower the speed?


The frequency of the AC.

Say they can all do ~5000rpm. Then say you have 2 motors. One rated at 5hp at 1720rpm, the other rated at 5hp 3450rpm. If you run the 1720rpm motor at 3450 it'll make more then 5hp. Since they all pretty much do 5000rpm+ your better off with the 1720rpm motor.


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> The frequency of the AC.
> 
> Say they can all do ~5000rpm. Then say you have 2 motors. One rated at 5hp at 1720rpm, the other rated at 5hp 3450rpm. If you run the 1720rpm motor at 3450 it'll make more then 5hp. Since they all pretty much do 5000rpm+ your better off with the 1720rpm motor.


sorry, i should've been clearer with my question. i understand the relationship between rpm and AC frequency in 3 phase motors, that wasn't really the question.

in an AC motor, its rpm is a dictated by the AC frequency and the number of poles the motor is wired to have. i understand that a 2 pole motor will run at double the speed of a 4 pole motor for a given input AC frequency ( forgetting about motor slip) however, for the same power and frequency, the 4 pole motor will have a greater torque, the 2 pole will have a greater rpm.

the question was wether a DC motor responds to the number of poles it has in a similar fashion. ie; if we take two motors of the same power and size, but one has twice as many armature poles as the other, will the motor with more armature poles have a lower rpm for a given voltage then the motor with less poles?


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> sorry, i should've been clearer with my question. i understand the relationship between rpm and AC frequency in 3 phase motors, that wasn't really the question.
> 
> in an AC motor, its rpm is a dictated by the AC frequency and the number of poles the motor is wired to have. i understand that a 2 pole motor will run at double the speed of a 4 pole motor for a given input AC frequency ( forgetting about motor slip) however, for the same power and frequency, the 4 pole motor will have a greater torque, the 2 pole will have a greater rpm.
> 
> the question was wether a DC motor responds to the number of poles it has in a similar fashion. ie; if we take two motors of the same power and size, but one has twice as many armature poles as the other, will the motor with more armature poles have a lower rpm for a given voltage then the motor with less poles?


Poles shouldn't have anything to do with torque as long as fewer poles can hold sufficient copper. Torque should be fairly proportionate to the motor's wattage. 100a in 2 poles or 50a in 4? Same power output but different RPM? I'm learning AC as well but this makes sense to me.


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## manic_monkey (Jun 24, 2008)

lazzer408 said:


> Poles shouldn't have anything to do with torque as long as fewer poles can hold sufficient copper. Torque should be fairly proportionate to the motor's wattage. 100a in 2 poles or 50a in 4? Same power output but different RPM? I'm learning AC as well but this makes sense to me.


no, the number of poles is directly linked to torque. think of it like this

if you have a 12inch diameter motor, and its split into 2 poles, when the coil is energized (lets say 100W), the rotor moves through 180 degrees to align itself with the coil. now, if we take the same size motor, but with four poles, when the coil is energized with the same energy, the rotor only needs to move through 90 degrees to align itself. so you could say that the 2 pole motor has 100w of power available for each 180 degree's, while the 4 pole motor has 200w of power for each 180 degree's, but would require 400w of power to turn through 360, while the 2 pole only require 200w.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

manic_monkey said:


> no, the number of poles is directly linked to torque. think of it like this
> 
> if you have a 12inch diameter motor, and its split into 2 poles, when the coil is energized (lets say 100W), the rotor moves through 180 degrees to align itself with the coil. now, if we take the same size motor, but with four poles, when the coil is energized with the same energy, the rotor only needs to move through 90 degrees to align itself. so you could say that the 2 pole motor has 100w of power available for each 180 degree's, while the 4 pole motor has 200w of power for each 180 degree's, but would require 400w of power to turn through 360, while the 2 pole only require 200w.


It still boils down to available power. 100w per 4 poles or 200w per 2. If 100w made 10ft torque on 4 poles that's [email protected] If 200w makes 20lb on 2 poles that's [email protected] Same difference. If torque was directly linked to poles, could I make a 1000pole motor put out 1000lb torque with only 100w of power? Nope. Torque is directly linked to total electrical power no matter how many poles you use to divide it up.

I found a good paper on it.
http://www.getitingear07.com/pdf/motors/whitepapers/B7100.pdf


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

Hi, 
I am a newbie here, and have read this thread with interest. I recently acquired three Hyster traction motors. They have all been rebuilt by a local manufacturer's in-house motor shop. They look to be unused after the rebuild. At scrap price, I couldn't pass them up. Trouble is, I have no idea what the best option would be for my electric car project. I am going to convert a VW thing to EV, and I have a feeling the largest motor would be overkill. I have two of the smaller sized motors, identical, but the shaft options seem more limited. Here are the specs I know:
(2) GE PN 339128 9" dia. 1st marked 11.6HP 8.7kw 1hr rating 36/48v sn WL-9-39-WL 2nd marked WDG series 36/48V sn WJ-9-975-WJ
(1) GE Hyster PN 323380 36/48v sn JT8-27U-JT. 11" dia.

A tag on one of the smaller units indicated that it was for a Hyster E50XL, but I cant promise that it was accurate. 

Any help determining if I have a good motor for my project would be greatly appreciated. I don't know what controller to use with these beasts. I assume that I will be going with a voltage higher than 48, but I am not sure exactly what voltage I will use. 

I have placed a bunch of images at http://cwarner.sunnking.com/hystermotor

Thanks for your help.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Iron

That smaller drive motor is a nice find, the larger motor has that beast aspect to it and bigger than needed for an average convertion. The drive shaft on the one could be machined down and keyed to match to the standard taperlock mountings most use. As noted earlier in this thread advance the brush timing by rotating the comm plate opposite the motors intended rotation 10 degrees. Mark, drill, and tap new plate mounting holes. Rebolt the comm plate, add car and juice 

On motor theory, it'd be nice to move that to a seperate thread in hopes of keeping this one on track toward lift motor coversions  (as we're on like page 30 already)(pretty soon newbies are going to have to read a "War and Peace" like thread  

With all the motors out there pretty much built to order, I find it counter productive to not (lat least) use professionally built componants, unless just for the DIY aspect of it. As an FYI, I've built 2 pole, 4 pole, 6, and 8 pole and found the 4 poles to be the best of the bunch on many levels. As I'm not an EE, I like to joke that for me a motor's like art, I can't spell it, but know when I see it 

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks Jim, 
I had a feeling the 11" would be a bit much for any projects I had in mind. Are there any special considerations as far as controllers go for the 9" motor? I know there are several good controllers on the market today, and intend to buy a ready made controller as I am not even remotely an EE (I am really an HE... hammer engineer )

This one looks like it could be the GE controller: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300165368898&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

I have a machinist friend who owes me a favor.... I will have him get the shafts ready for business. Thankfully I have two of the 9" motors, in case he screws one up.

Now to find a Thing in good shape. (or a Karmann Ghia, or a Fastback, )


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Iron

Voltage equals speed and amps, torque. A 48 volt controller isn't enough volts to do a conversion (unless you want it to drive like a forklift). I know of Manville and had got small things from them long ago from time to time, but stopped after sevral lets say "fun" dealings. They've begun "jumping" on the band waggon for EV's without knowing what it takes (or spending the time to learn)(I don't see any of their tech's on any of the lists) and they've been just liquidating motor stock (whether it's a valid candidate or not) touting them as EV motors (and now controllers.

I've had a few private emails asking me for input on motors they are listing on Ebay. In as much as I try and help you guys, I find doing their leg work and motor tech (as I've told others) a bitter and sour pill to swallow as I do make my living "selling" motors. 

Getting back to the controller aspect, I can get you a 72-120 volt (or 120-144 volt) 750 amp Logisystem controller for 50 bucks more than their listing this forklift controller at.

Anyway, I hope you all can understand my take on this.

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi Jim,
I enjoy your posts, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

What do you think of this motor? It measures 11.5" diameter and is a Hyster with 8 brushes. The commutator is very worn especially under the brushes closest to the armature.

Thanks!
Stephen Chapman


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Stephen

Looking into the fied area on the one pic (and the pingerprints on the outside 8^) it appears you have some seriously oil saturated field coils. I'd check the motor for shorts to the frame (what I call a ground)(any copper or brass to any steel). Check with an ohm meter between the comm and the shaft, and the field terminals to the housing. I'd suggest you plan on taking it apart and cleaning those coils if it's to be used at higher voltages. Have the comm turned while it's apart, change the bearings as well, and I'd turn the shaft down so you could use a taper lock like most do. The brushes look in great shape though and should be good to use. I'd need more pics of the comm area to offer more. It looks like the armature's been coated green which makes it harder to look for heat issues / damages. I'd say it just needs a little bit of TLC.

Jim


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the reply and your continuing contribution to this field of endeavor. I forgot to mention that the motor does turn freely with a 6Ah 12V ups battery attached... I will check the ground status and get a quote on the commutator and shaft work.

If the ground resistance is low, would baking and re-varnishing at a local motor shop help?
Thanks!
-Stephen Chapman


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Jim,
What do think the max usable voltage and rpm would be on this motor?

It would be for a Mustang, GVW = 4200 pounds. I was hoping to use a 144V pack of floodies and a Zilla 1K.

Thanks!
-Stephen Chapman


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Eng

Once coils get that saturated with grease and gunk, I'd advise stripping off the old wrap and re-wrapping them in fiberglass and then dipping and baking them (specially if going into a higher voltage machine 8^) I wouldn't push this past 5000 RPM's and I have no idea what the upper voltage limit will be and is subject to how far advanced the brushes are set.
Hope this helps
Jim


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks Jim, this does help. It is not so much a "pig in a poke" anymore. As you have documented on your website, even new motors benefit from TLC. I don't even know what the original Hyster voltage was. What would you think for a motor this big? 

Stripping, wrapping, dipping, and baking the field coils is good advice, heck, some may even need replacement. Other than turning the commutator and banding the commutator leads, is there anything to do to the rotor in the TLC category?

Thanks!
-Stephen Chapman



Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Eng
> 
> Once coils get that saturated with grease and gunk, I'd advise stripping off the old wrap and re-wrapping them in fiberglass and then dipping and baking them (specially if going into a higher voltage machine 8^) I wouldn't push this past 5000 RPM's and I have no idea what the upper voltage limit will be and is subject to how far advanced the brushes are set.
> Hope this helps
> Jim


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## Superspool2veno (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey fellow EV-ers, 

I am stumped on a mounting issue and was hoping you guys could lend me some support. 

My friend recently helped me score a General Electric Aircraft/Generator shunt motor. It weighs close to 90 pounds and is rated at 400 amps. 

The problem: Unlike most forklift or electric vehicle motors, the motor I've acquired does not have a flat surface where I could easily mount an adapter plate with fasteners to. I hope to adapt this motor to a rear wheel drive 5-speed transmission. A CNC machine could possible solve this problem, but I don't have access to one. What would you guys suggest can solve this mounting problem? Thank you in advance for the help!

-Funston
Here are some pics:
Shot of entire motor








Front Mounting Side & ID plate - I'm hoping to use a lovejoy type coupler
















One more pic for shear pleasure


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey there Superspool2veno,

 I have a CNC machine center - Were you hoping to make the adapter plate do double duty as a motor end plate or do you just want an end plate for the motor that mimics a "standard" motor.

Later,
Keith


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## buzzforb (Aug 16, 2008)

I am new to this thread and have thought it to be very good reading, but i have a couple of questions. If I were to buy a new motor induction motor of standard NEMA design, how much could said motor be pushed beyond its current ratings with a good controller, and what is necessary in terms of rewinding or advancing to allow greater performance.


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## buzzforb (Aug 16, 2008)

Sorry but i had one more question. Is there a book somewhere that will help with ac motor modifications?


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

BenNelson said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> I will start pulling these when I get a chance - supposed to get a blizzard later.
> 
> ...


Carefully discharge the pressure on the hydraulics being sure to support all moving parts or move them to their lowest position. I knew a guy who received a severe injury when hydraulic fluid was pressure injected into his hand from a pinhole leak. The stuff can also squirt into your eyes if you are not wearing goggles. Be carefull hydraulics can be dangerous.


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## Superspool2veno (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey Keith, 

I was hoping for the adapter plate do double duty as a motor end plate.


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## Mongo (Aug 28, 2008)

*new question*

Hello ereyone,
As this is my first post, I hope you all will cut me some slack in asking questions that were probably already answered in one way or another.
I tried to look some stuff up on the internet and on this great forum, but the technical mumbo jumbo just got to much for me... I am actually not technically skilled, meaning that I am in over my head here with this project.
Anyway, about two months ago I stumbled upon the "_Who killed the Electrical Car (EV1)_" movie on Youtube.
Since then, I am gathering info on how to convert a car for daily use myself.
Since I live in Belgium -Flanders to be exact- and because there is not much info in my native laguage on this subject, (which is dutch btw), I'd thought I try my luck over here.

I've already bought a Mazda rx8 without the engine (or interior) and some other bits and pieces missing for little money. 
I have a friend (who has a friend that works in a forklift repair shop) who actually ows me one. To be more precise, he told me that he is going to give me a forklift motor (as in for free), and that he just needs the specs from me.
Being rather illiterate in this department, I'd thought I'd give it a go here in fnding the best possible specs for my EV conversion.

As said, It's for an RX8 from mazda. 
I'll use it on a daily base, about 100km a day, mostly highway with speedlimits between 90(min) and 130(max) km/hr. Acceleration speed is not my main focusl, speed and range are...

I have about 2000dollar left to use on this conversion and in spite of the fact that I am no mechanic, I am motivated to give it a go having seen other guys pull it off on youtube... even though I know this is rather a shoe string budget compaired to what other people are spending.

Any idea's anyone?
Thanks allready for you input and pls don't get to frustrated on my English writing skills...


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## BridelessRacing (Aug 28, 2008)

Ok I got my motor to start with is it any good?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

BridelessRacing said:


> Ok I got my motor to start with is it any good?


Dimensions, weight, shaft type?


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Iskra is a small snowplow motor?


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## evz (Sep 11, 2008)

cheers everyone !

my 500 dollar forklift came in today 

can anyone shed light on the motor here 

12 wide x 14 long 

big

made by eaton
type K5 
part number 7209980-01
serial number 1284

EATON


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## evz (Sep 11, 2008)

just found a link with the same motor and a few comments 

http://www.quintonet.com/qev1/beginnings/motor.html#specifications


if this fellow is correct he thinks its a series type wiring 

200lb

comments would be apprecieated

what kind of project could i do with this motor ?


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## Mongo (Aug 28, 2008)

No one...?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

great looking motor . save the spline shaft that the motor connects too . any car that can handle good size battery pack .


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## evz (Sep 11, 2008)

hi aeroscott
ill save all the parts 

a 240z datsun can handle a lot of batteries i hear


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hello Jim,
First of all, thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and helping all of the less educated... like myself. I'm very much a newbie, but have enjoyed reading your posts. I'm just starting down this EV road and most of my decisions are in front of me. Let's just say that I am getting an education at this point. 

Yesterday, I looked at an electric lift truck motor... which is still in the truck. The unit is a Hyster, 6000 lb, 4 wheel, sit down fork lift. I'm not sure of the year/age of the truck exactly, but I'm working on getting the details. I did have them pick it up with a larger lift truck so I could look under it. The traction motor is 9.25" diameter and about 17 or so inches long (not counting whatever is mounted on the aux shaft end). I did snap a pic but I realize it is difficult to tell much from this shot. The unit is located at a place that deals and repairs lift trucks so they sell new, used and also repair all types. They looked up the specs but didn't get an actual manufacturers name for the motor, only the Hyster number. They will bring it into the shop and power wash (I'm assuming this is ok..if left to dry before applying power) to get a read of any nameplate or stamping info. I would appreciate any feedback you could offer based on this. If I am expecting too much for the info supplied, I do appologise... I am just getting my feet wet here. 
Oh yes, they said they would sell it to me for $200. I think I can probably get it for $100. 

Best regards,

Gary


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Mongo: I also saw "Who Killed The Electric Car" (actually, I own the DVD) and it motivated me to build an electric car, too. I am not an expert either, but let me tell you my experience:

I converted a 1985 Fiero to electric using a huge 12" forklift motor. It just clears one of the axle shafts coming out of this cars transmission. Another centimeter and I would have had to look for another motor.

I have been using the car up to 35 MPH for a few months, using only 48 volts. Today I added only one more battery to the mix and it goes 40 MPH easily. My controller can handle up to 120 volts, so I have some more expansion room.

I've been told I should advance my brush timing but I was told this AFTER I had installed the motor, so I guess I'll wait until I have problems, or when winter arrives and I'm not driving the car.

To keep your project on budget, try to get the controller that matches the motor you're getting. This will also include the pot box, and the solenoids from the control panel.

But don't expect your car to go very fast using only 48 volts. 120 is more like it. Higher voltage requires exponentially more money. But LEARN how to do 48 volts, then think about expanding.

Expect to learn a lot while doing this project! Imagine all the things that can go wrong, and figure you'll run into several more things you didn't think of. But keep your eye on the prize: NO GAS! ~Mike~


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## Mongo (Aug 28, 2008)

Thx Mike, appreciate your input!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Choosing the right motor isn't rocket science (unless you're a racer, hehe) but does need a little thought thrown at it so the end results are rewarding and meet your needs.


Hello Jim,
First of all, thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and helping all of the less educated... like myself. I'm very much a newbie, but have enjoyed reading your posts. I'm just starting down this EV road and most of my decisions are in front of me. Let's just say that I am getting an education at this point. 

Yesterday, I looked at an electric lift truck motor... which is still in the truck. The unit is a Hyster, 6000 lb, 4 wheel, sit down fork lift. I'm not sure of the year/age of the truck exactly, but I'm working on getting the details. I did have them pick it up with a larger lift truck so I could look under it. The traction motor is 9.25" diameter and about 17 or so inches long (not counting whatever is mounted on the aux shaft end). I did snap a pic but I realize it is difficult to tell much from this shot. The unit is located at a place that deals and repairs lift trucks so they sell new, used and also repair all types. They looked up the specs but didn't get an actual manufacturers name for the motor, only the Hyster number. They will bring it into the shop and power wash (I'm assuming this is ok..if left to dry before applying power) to get a read of any nameplate or stamping info. I would appreciate any feedback you could offer based on this. If I am expecting too much for the info supplied, I do appologise... I am just getting my feet wet here. 
Oh yes, they said they would sell it to me for $200. I think I can probably get it for $100. Just trying to decide if I should pursue or not. 

Best regards,

Gary
Attached Thumbnails


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, what voltage is the truck? What kind of controller does it use?
-Stephen Chapman


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hello Jim......


Is there a reason you reposted the same thing from a few days ago? You might get more help if you posted more information and better pics of that motor. Voltage, shaft type, etc.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is there a reason you reposted the same thing from a few days ago? You might get more help if you posted more information and better pics of that motor. Voltage, shaft type, etc.


Yes sir, there is a reason. My first post was actually my "very first post". After several days with no response, I thought that maybe if I used a quote from one of Mr. Husted's posts, the system would message him directly as he may not have known that I was addressing him with the first message. 

I wish I could get more information on this motor. It is located in a yard of a company who deals with lift trucks, new.. used.... and service. On my first (and only) visit there, the gentleman was nice enough to lift this "dead" lift truck up with another one so that I could get a look and take some pictures. Unfortunately, there was nothing identifiable on the motor as you can see by it's state. This picture was the only one that was half decent. I was hoping that my description of the truck would be enough for Mr. Husted to give me some idea whether the motor was worth pursuing. These folks are really not too interested in helping me by cleaning the motor up enough to identify. They did try and look it up in the manual and their computer system but could only retrieve the Hyster motor replacement number. I believe the lift truck operated on a 36 volt system.

Since this thread was created for "Using a forklift motor, and choosing a good one" I was optimistic that I could receive some help. Perhaps my optimism was unrealistic. My appologies.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jim is a busy guy and unfortunately hasn't been around here for a month or so. I assume he is subscribed to this thread and is notified of every post, but probably doesn't have the time to keep up. Others of us are willing to help but we would need more information to work with. If you read through this thread you can probably get enough info to make a good guess as to what to look for in a motor. Large brush area, either 8 or 4 big ones, male shaft that's either keyed, or splined but large enough to turn down to a keyed shaft, 8.5 to 11 inch or so diameter, not too heavy, (probably less than 200lbs.) Good bearings and no burnt windings would be a plus.


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Since this thread was created for "Using a forklift motor, and choosing a good one" I was optimistic that I could receive some help. Perhaps my optimism was unrealistic. My appologies.


Patience. Jim is a busy guy and does not lurk on the forums. He does visit from time to time to share pearls of wisdom. Give it a week or two.

Even if cleaned up, I think you would find precious little information other than a Hyster part number and that is not going to get you to a spec sheet or anything really definitive. You do not have a picture of the brush/commutator area and that is what Jim would be most interested in seeing along with the external connections to make sure it is a series wound design. At that price, it is probably worth the gamble, even if you have to put $500 into it.
-enganear


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

enganear said:


> Even if cleaned up, I think you would find precious little information other than a Hyster part number and that is not going to get you to a spec sheet or anything really definitive. You do not have a picture of the brush/commutator area and that is what Jim would be most interested in seeing along with the external connections to make sure it is a series wound design. At that price, it is probably worth the gamble, even if you have to put $500 into it.
> -enganear


Thanks enganear.... and JRP3 also, I appreciate that. I think I am going to try and talk them into letting me remove the motor myself and then I will be able to check it out better and get some good shots of it. 

I suppose the excitement of it all is what one needs to drive them, no ill will intended. 

Best regards,
Gary


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey guys

Sorry I havent been around as much as some would like, but I have been busy (and working on some big motors) and (I'm not 20 no more and have been coming home tired and beat up)(in fact today's my birthday, so it probably isn't going to get any better in that department 

I've also had family visits from out of state and I've been trying to get home related hunny-do's done before winter hits as well. I'll spend some time this weekend getting caught up to speed here.

As an FYI, if you really need a quick answer to something, it's best to contact me direct through my email listed at my site. As others have stated, I need good clean pics to offer helpful advise.

On that, I'll see what info I can share this weekend when I have a bit more time (and energy).

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Sorry I havent been around as much as some would like, but I have been busy (and working on some big motors) and (I'm not 20 no more and have been coming home tired and beat up)(in fact today's my birthday, so it probably isn't going to get any better in that department
> 
> ...


Hey Jim,

Nice to see you back. I have my issues with the hunny-do list as well. lol 

As for the lift motor, I've talked the owner into tipping this truck up on it's nose (mast removed) and letting me remove the motor. I am going this afternoon to remove it. I printed off your notes about what to look for and will take some photos. Perhaps you can give me some ideas based on that. I will post tonight if it works out. Thanks very much.

Regards,
Gary


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Gary

See if I can't stay a bit more on top of things here  Your motor is at least of proper size and mass, but would say it'll need a bit of love before being used as an EV motor (aka higher voltage)(from the pic of the outside). Plan on doing a clean up and earing change plus advancing the timing. If it's the motor I believe it is, it'll have a splined shaft but one with enough beef to machine down to a (standard) 1 1/8th keyed shaft you can use a taper lock with. Anyway, best of luck, maybe pulling it on my birthday will be a good omen  either that, or your screwed really hard 
Cya
Jim
PS: It'll probably be this weekend before I'll be able to get back to you, again best of luck.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Gary
> 
> See if I can't stay a bit more on top of things here  Your motor is at least of proper size and mass, but would say it'll need a bit of love before being used as an EV motor (aka higher voltage)(from the pic of the outside). Plan on doing a clean up and earing change plus advancing the timing. If it's the motor I believe it is, it'll have a splined shaft but one with enough beef to machine down to a (standard) 1 1/8th keyed shaft you can use a taper lock with. Anyway, best of luck, maybe pulling it on my birthday will be a good omen  either that, or your screwed really hard
> Cya
> ...


Hey Jim, (others, please chime in)

I finally got a good close look at this motor. I attempted to pull it out and managed all but one bolt... a large secondary mount which I didn't have the tools nor the time to pursue. The motor has an ID plate that confirms it as a Hyster motor made in USA by General Electric. The Hyster P/N is 368579 (likely of little use) and the S/N is MY8-1702-MY there is a space and then "OL.H". Volage is listed as 36/48. It has 4 motor leads and 4 sets of brushes, each with two brushes. The dimensions I gave earlier and I recall that the diameter is 9.25" and the length is 16 or 17". not including the brake or shaft extensions. Unfortunately, I will have to wait to see what the shaft configuration is. I have taken some pics, please see attachments. I removed the screen bands. The motor spins freely and there are no signs of overheating/discolouration.

I'm tempted to scoop the hydraulic motor as well. It is actually a pretty good size, about 2/3 the size of the traction motor. Whadaya think?? lol 

Thank you in advance for any and all help. From my perspective, it looks like a keeper.

Regards,
Gary


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

its got nice commutator cooling fans also


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## evz (Sep 11, 2008)

a photos is worth a 1000 words so here goes 

got 3 motors from the lift truck 

smallest motor weighs 45lbs -good for a go cart i imagine,

medium one weighs 95 lbs - 7,25 dia x 12 long

the big one (second photo) weighs 205lbs - 12 inches dia x 14 long 

the car is a vw ghia chassis 

hey jim which motor do i use ? medium or big ?

cheers!



cheers!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's a little large but it looks to me as if the big one is the only one with a male shaft so it's the only practical possibility. The brush area looks a little small though. Actually looking again maybe it's not.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Gary

That's a good motor and there's a couple people who've gotten ahold of one. It looks like the coils are grease saturated so there may be some issues to take care of there. The next course of action will be to make sure the armature isn't shorted to ground (copper to steel). The coils will probably have at least a small contaminating ground due to the grease and oils inside (I could be wrong, but it looks like it from a couple of pics(but hard to really see that deep inside. Anyway, it looks like a keeper.

EVZ
The drive motor's a tad on the large size but would work, the pump motor is probably a better candidate, but the shaft will be the bugger to deal with, the steering motor will not be anything you'll want for an EV.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

hey jim, any updates on the siamesed 6.7" motors? got a line on a couple and would like to know if it's worth doing. thanks!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Gary
> 
> That's a good motor and there's a couple people who've gotten ahold of one. It looks like the coils are grease saturated so there may be some issues to take care of there. The next course of action will be to make sure the armature isn't shorted to ground (copper to steel). The coils will probably have at least a small contaminating ground due to the grease and oils inside (I could be wrong, but it looks like it from a couple of pics(but hard to really see that deep inside. Anyway, it looks like a keeper.


Thanks Jim. Here is a shot of the output shaft... you were right on about it. I will have it turned down. I was pouring some de-greaser on the motor and cleaning it up with an old paint brush.. this may be why it looks that way.. I also got some bits of grime inside that show up on the commutator. We'll check it out though! I'll get into it more over the next few days.

I have had some thoughts of running this motor at 156 volts instead of 144 (in an S10), do you think there would be any issues with this motor at that voltage and what if anything additional should be done for this?

Regards,
Gary


----------



## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi Jim,
I bought the motor I posted earlier in this thread. It is an 11.5" GE Hyster motor with a 15.75" long case, making it ~1.5" shorter than a WarP11. I had it rebuilt by a local shop here in Greensboro. They steamed and baked it twice, turned the commutator, varnish dipped everything, installed new bearings, brushes (ML030) and repainted it. The bill was $435. 

The resistance to ground was around 20k before rebuilt, infinity afterwards.

I now have to deal with advancing the brushes and the splined shafts. The shop told me the splines were case hardened and that they could not turn them, they would have to be ground. I have read on this forum of people using QD or Taperlock hubs directly on a splined shaft. What is your opinion?

Here it is in the back of my Mustang.









Here is my freshly turned commutator. Oooooohh SHINY!









Thanks,
-Stephen Chapman


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

enganear said:


> I now have to deal with advancing the brushes and the splined shafts. The shop told me the splines were case hardened and that they could not turn them, they would have to be ground. I have read on this forum of people using QD or Taperlock hubs directly on a splined shaft. What is your opinion?


Hey Stephen,
I'm a little behind you, but in the same boat. Thanks for asking that. I'm pretty sure that a tungsten carbide cutter will handle the case hardened shaft turning. I'll check with someone in our toolroom, just to be sure.

Gary


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Stephen,
> I'm a little behind you, but in the same boat. Thanks for asking that. I'm pretty sure that a tungsten carbide cutter will handle the case hardened shaft turning. I'll check with someone in our toolroom, just to be sure.
> 
> Gary


Hi Gary,
It may be that my motor shop just does not want to do it. The root of the spline is 1.491 dia, so I could easily get a 1.375 straight shaft out of this.

I am still curious about using a QD or Taperlock directly on the spline. I have been unable to find a coupler for this particlular spline. It is 1.617 OD and 25T.
-Stephen Chapman


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I'm pretty sure that a tungsten carbide cutter will handle the case hardened shaft turning. I'll check with someone in our toolroom, just to be sure.
> Gary


Hey Gary and Stephan,

You can anneal the hardened surface, machine it and harden the resulting surface, if needed. Might ask your shop about that.

Regards,

major


----------



## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

major said:


> Hey Gary and Stephan,
> 
> You can anneal the hardened surface, machine it and harden the resulting surface, if needed. Might ask your shop about that.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I would want to get the shaft that hot next to the wound area on the rotor.... Annealing requires time at high temps and slow cooling.
-Stephen


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## Drizzle (Jun 17, 2008)

enganear said:


> Hi Jim,
> I bought the motor I posted earlier in this thread. It is an 11.5" GE Hyster motor with a 15.75" long case, making it ~1.5" shorter than a WarP11. I had it rebuilt by a local shop here in Greensboro.


Hi Stephen,

I assume you're referring to Greensboro, NC -- which is where I live, too... Can I ask the name of the shop you took it to? I'd love to have that as a backup reference in case my Hitachi motor needs work beyond my capacity.

Thanks in advance,
Drizzle


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## enganear (Jun 16, 2008)

Well this is good news! The splines that my motor rebuilder said were case hardened, are not hard at all and can be easily cut with a file. I will break the motor down and take the rotor to a good machine shop I know to get the splines turned off. The root diameter is 1.491", so I can get a good 1.375 keyed straight shaft out of it. I may get it bored to accept a brass bushing for the pilot of the transmission shaft so I can suck the motor up a little closer to the transmission.
-Stephen Chapman


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Joseph

I've actually done Siamese'd 6.7's, 7.2's, (Waylands original) 8" and of course the new 9's. The longer the motor and smaller the diameter (not to mention shaft diameter, the harder they are to do. A lot will depend on which 6.7 your talking about. They're not easy to do and tolerances must be exact.

Gary

It should be able to take 156 volts but think I'd advance this one to 13 degrees toadd a little higher voltage limit to it. As you found out those splines shouldn't be that hard. They;ll probably see some chattering on the interupted cuts as they cut off the splines but once down to a solid surface it'll be better. I'd advise turning compared to taper locking onto the splines (twice the grab as I see it)(and a key for added measure) as at 156 volts it'll have huge torque when you floor it 8^)

Hopefully this got EVeryone as I'll be away for the weekend for an electric boat race where (hopefully a boat I did a motor for will be the first to do 100 MPH (happy thoughts are most welcome 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good luck with that Jim and if you get a chance post a thread with results and the specs of the boat.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

enganear said:


> Well this is good news! The splines that my motor rebuilder said were case hardened, are not hard at all and can be easily cut with a file. I will break the motor down and take the rotor to a good machine shop I know to get the splines turned off. The root diameter is 1.491", so I can get a good 1.375 keyed straight shaft out of it. I may get it bored to accept a brass bushing for the pilot of the transmission shaft so I can suck the motor up a little closer to the transmission.
> -Stephen Chapman


Stephen,

Yes, I hit mine with a file also... and it won't be a problem. Besides, sintered carbide will damn near cut hardened tool steel. Case hardened components can always be touched with a grinder first as this is only surface hardening.. usually in an arsenic oven. I wouldn't hit the shaft with any amount of heat personally. So ... ya.. no worries.

Gary


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Gary
> 
> It should be able to take 156 volts but think I'd advance this one to 13 degrees toadd a little higher voltage limit to it. As you found out those splines shouldn't be that hard. They;ll probably see some chattering on the interupted cuts as they cut off the splines but once down to a solid surface it'll be better. I'd advise turning compared to taper locking onto the splines (twice the grab as I see it)(and a key for added measure) as at 156 volts it'll have huge torque when you floor it 8^)
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim,

Regarding the timing advance, should I assume 10 degrees for 144V and 13 degrees for 156V only? In other words, I have not decided on the voltage for sure yet so.... should I do it at 13 degrees and it will be ok for either voltage? ... OR must I decide first? I was thinking that I could likely set it to 10 degrees and slot the CE plate enough to get 3 more degrees if required. Whadaya think?

I'll post some pics below of the commutator, which I will have turned, but looks like it has very little wear and only light grooves.

What do you think about these field coils? Should I re-wrap, dip and bake them since they are out anyways? 

Also, I've heard that there are different quality of brushes out there. Any recommendations?

Finally, what do you think about pulling the fan off the shaft. The bearings were no problem.. but I'm scared to hook the puller to this fan as it appears to be an aluminium/magnesium alloy casting... likely quite brittle and it looks seized on the shaft. I just want to clean it up and save it from getting broken when I take the armature in to work to machine the spline end.

Have fun at the races and good luck!

Gary


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

Hello all,

I am Roel from the Netherlands. I am new on building ev's. My first project is an electric motorcycle. I want to drive it to my work on the high way. Dutch traffic is quite fast, so I prefer a minimum top speed of 120km/h (75 mph). 1 way is 35km, I do not have the illusion I can drive there and back on one charge. So I am going to ask my boss if I can charge my motorcycle at work. 
But to the point. I am looking around for a fork lift motor to power my motorcycle. The motor must be as light and small as possible because the motorcycle is going to be heavy enough as it is. On the other hand it needs to accalerate fast enough to show other people that electric is to future and not just for a small group od fanatics.
I shopped around and found the following motor:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/Roelhen/ev/PICT3663.jpg

It is the hydraulics pump motor of a hyster E50B, partnr 301349. The motor is series wound, 72/80V, 19cm (7.5inch) in diameter and 30cm (12 inch) long. The motor has an internal fan for cooling.
I asked hyster to send me the specs of this motor. I do npt know if they still have it / want to look for it.
Does anybody know the specs of this motor? Like rmp, torque, nominal max current. I want to know this so I can estimate the transmission ratio. I need a motor that has it's nominal max power somewhere between 3000 and 4500rpm. I have no idea if a motor like this may be designed not to run faster then 1000 rpm. Any body knows?

And another question, is this commutator still good? Or does it need turning on a late?
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/Roelhen/ev/PICT3657.jpg

Thanks for all the help.

Roel


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

roelhen said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am Roel from the Netherlands. I shopped around and found the following motor:
> http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/Roelhen/ev/PICT3663.jpg
> ...


Hey Roel,

It is an old Prestolite motor. Looks like it might be compound, not series. Brushes look pretty short. Can't tell actual comm condition. Should be checked when new brushes installed. Design speed would have been faster than 1000, probably around 3000 RPM.

Regards,

major


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## ice (Sep 8, 2008)

Nice tips!  Thanks a lot guys!


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

major said:


> Hey Roel,
> 
> It is an old Prestolite motor. Looks like it might be compound, not series. Brushes look pretty short. Can't tell actual comm condition. Should be checked when new brushes installed. Design speed would have been faster than 1000, probably around 3000 RPM.
> 
> ...


Hi Major,

thanks for your input. Compound wound? How do you know. I looked at the field windings, they are very thick. Here is a picture:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/Roelhen/ev/PICT3659.jpg
Sorry, not so sharp.
Now I also see at my prvious picture there is a thick and a thin wire. If it is compound wound, the would give better speed control, right? Or is it a disadvantage for an ev?
The 2 connection points on the motor are labaled A and S, maybe that says something?
I will have to look for a place to get new brushes then. Will not be to expensive will they? 
They ask 150 euro for this motor, I want to make sure it is a good choice. to buy.

Roel


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

roelhen said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> thanks for your input. Compound wound? How do you know.
> 
> ...


Roel,

Comments inserted. Good luck with your project.

major


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks major,

that is very usefull information. 

I am convinced it is a compound wound motor.
The motor will drive the rear wheel with a chain, so as long as the motor has a male axle and the bearings can take the stress any motor with the right size will be usable. Nice about compound wound is that the motor will survive when the chain brakes. But, on the other hand, a chain never brakes, except when it is totally neglected or way to tight. So I can use a series motor.

Ofcourse a motorcycle is light, so I do not need so much torque. But on the other hand, a advantage of a motorcycle is is that it can accelerate so fast. And one of my goals is is to show people an electric driven vehicle is not borring. So the more torque the better. 
Now I will first search for a series wound motor, if I can not find one I can always choose for this motor. 

Thanks again,
Roel

ps) This forum is great!


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## lazattack (Oct 19, 2008)

Hello everyone.

Sorry to barge in, but Ive found what may be a little gem at the local scrapyard. I managed to take a quick pic. It isnt great quality.

Long Story short, its a Lansing Reach Truck motor, which was used to power the pneumatics onboard, is what ive been told. 

Anyway, im hoping to use it in a Lightweight Electric Tricycle. If anyone could tell me if this motor is suitable, i would be very grateful.

Here is the pic: 










Im sorry, i couldnt get a good shot of the brushes.

I know, im asking alot from a single photograph, but if anyone could point me in the right direction, i would be very happy.

Many, Many thanks.

lazattack.


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## Pb Cruiser (Oct 29, 2007)

I located a wrecking yard devoted to forklifts. Posted is an image of a motor choice that may be suitable. It is 36 to 48 volt however there was a 72 volt lift but the motors had already been removed. There is no rpm info on the tag. The commutator segments are about 5/32" wide, and is in pretty good shape. Any opinions?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How big is the motor, length, diameter? It looks like it says "Crown" and I think Jim has built some Crowns, not sure about that exact model.


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## jim h (Oct 20, 2008)

E-boat speed records
14 records were set at devil's lake oregon oct 11-12-08 including a new 144 V record of 98.253 mph by michael bontoft. Boat:ron jones jr. composite hull motorrestolite? batteries 42 li-po rc batteries. kilometer (2-way electronically timed runs) records pending approval by american power boat association and union of international motorboating. I am guessing this could be the fastest speed OFFICIALLY
achieved in a manned electric boat. very impressive achievement. The other records set that weekend
were mostly inboard and outboard hydroplanes (piston engine/gasoline). I did not attend the event but i think the details are essentially correct. jh


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Pb Cruiser said:


> I located a wrecking yard devoted to forklifts. Posted is an image of a motor choice that may be suitable. It is 36 to 48 volt however there was a 72 volt lift but the motors had already been removed. There is no rpm info on the tag. The commutator segments are about 5/32" wide, and is in pretty good shape. Any opinions?


What are the dimensions of the motor (diameter and length)? What did you want to use it for.. as in type/weight of vehicle? Looks like a series wound motor, so that's a good thing.

Edit;...ooops, didn't see ur post JRP3, before I posted.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pb Cruiser said:


> I located a wrecking yard devoted to forklifts. Posted is an image of a motor choice that may be suitable. It is 36 to 48 volt however there was a 72 volt lift but the motors had already been removed. There is no rpm info on the tag. The commutator segments are about 5/32" wide, and is in pretty good shape. Any opinions?


Hey Pb,

Looks like a later version of a motor I am familiar with. The early designs had an internal spline shaft and no bearing at the drive end of the motor. Similar to golf cart motors. I suspect it is made by GE or Crown themselves. Probably a solid electromagnetic design, but may give you real problems with the mechanical interface.

Regards,

major


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Hi all, 
I'm brand new to EV'ing and do not have one yet but hope to one day. I think that you folks may be the ones to tell me if I've got a motor to work with or not. Some time ago I was given an old Crown power jack which pulled the motor from, hoping to build a small motorcycle with it. I know it won't have enough power as rated so I'm hoping someone can tell me how much I can bump it up. 
It's a GE: 5BC 48JB772 
Specs are 1.1hp, 24v 46amp and 2000rpm, series wound. 
Specs are a 60min rating and 40deg celcius ambient. there are some other numbers too, 583/24-AU1851. 
The motor measures 6.7" dia, 9" long. Has four 5/8" wide brushes. 
What would be the max. voltage, current and RPM that I could safely run this motor. I'm wanting to build a bike in the 300-350 pound range, and do 40-45 mph. Thinking of an in town commuter bike. Is that possible with this motor, or am I dreaming?


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi guys...........I've been reading this thread for several days and have a question. I have never posted before and am new to ev's. I have access to 3 or 4 sit down fork trucks (hyster and clark) and may have the opportunity to take what I want as long as I can get it out in the next 72 to 96 hours. Do I need the controller and all of the electrical in the back of the lift? Do I need the "foot feed"? I know to take the motors! What all do I need to grab while I am there? I saw one of the controllers listed at 500 amp. One drive motor is 9"x16" one is 8" x18" and the other 2 are as big or bigger than this. Pump motors are 8x12 and larger. A couple of the motors look like new. Any reply appreciated! Thanks!!!!!!!!!! Doc


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

take everything you can,what you cant use,sell on ebay!! 

if time is a constraint at least get the motors,you can still sell off what you don't use.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Dr. Bill said:


> Hi guys...........I've been reading this thread for several days and have a question. I have never posted before and am new to ev's. I have access to 3 or 4 sit down fork trucks (hyster and clark) and may have the opportunity to take what I want as long as I can get it out in the next 72 to 96 hours. Do I need the controller and all of the electrical in the back of the lift? Do I need the "foot feed"? I know to take the motors! What all do I need to grab while I am there? I saw one of the controllers listed at 500 amp. One drive motor is 9"x16" one is 8" x18" and the other 2 are as big or bigger than this. Pump motors are 8x12 and larger. A couple of the motors look like new. Any reply appreciated! Thanks!!!!!!!!!! Doc


Get every motor, wire, controller, throttle (foot feed?), contactor and fuse you can get your hands on. I mean EVERYTHING. Then you have oodles of options on what to do and sell off anything you don't need to fund more parts of your project.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Dr. Bill said:


> Hi guys...........I've been reading this thread for several days and have a question. I have never posted before and am new to ev's. I have access to 3 or 4 sit down fork trucks (hyster and clark) and may have the opportunity to take what I want as long as I can get it out in the next 72 to 96 hours. Do I need the controller and all of the electrical in the back of the lift? Do I need the "foot feed"? I know to take the motors! What all do I need to grab while I am there? I saw one of the controllers listed at 500 amp. One drive motor is 9"x16" one is 8" x18" and the other 2 are as big or bigger than this. Pump motors are 8x12 and larger. A couple of the motors look like new. Any reply appreciated! Thanks!!!!!!!!!! Doc


Take anything with wires attached.


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi boys & girls.......Tore one of the hysters apart today and here is what I have:
1- GE EV100 SCR Control 500 amp
1- Ohio Motor Co. motor 6"x10" 48v 1hp. 1900rpm class F/H 2 leads with
slotted recessed shaft
1- Hitachi model MP425-02 48v 2.5kw 2leads 6 3/4"x11" keyed shaft 
15/16" (probably metric) actually found w/ a bin full of ac 3ph. motors
1- motor 6 3/4"x11" 2 leads 36v (no motor tag)
1- GE motor 36/48v Serial# NC-8-1110-TC CL H 9"x16 1/2" not incl.brake
180# 1 5/8" splined shaft 3" long
1- Keyed switch

I actually took the whole assembly of electrical in the back of the lift which literally must weigh 30-40#. Also took all of the wiring harness incl. the backup alarm, horns, and yellow strobe light. I don't know what I have but together it weighs 400#. The big boy is not for the faint at heart to wrestle out of one of those greasy messes. Burnt the clothes!!!!!!!!Doc


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## lauren (Oct 26, 2008)

do you have any more clearance inside the motor?


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## Electritech (Jul 25, 2008)

Hello all,

I've been quite a while lurking around this forum, dreaming about what kind of EV I could build some day. Well, that day is getting nearer. I just acquired, (for free), an old forklift pump motor. It measures 7" x 10-1/2", 3/4" dia shaft. I've included some pics (hopefully not too many) and would appreciate any input on this motor. I have no history on it, my uncle just happened to have it sitting in his garage and when I was talking to him the other day about electric vehicles he remembered that he had this sitting on a shelf and gave it to me.

It seems to be a little on the small side for a conversion, but I will start by building whatever I can with what I have, even if I can only drive it 20 miles on the weekends. I just want to get started.

Thanks in advance
Steve T


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A little small but other than that it looks promising for a lighter vehicle.


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## otoole (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi 

I am new to the site, but I need advice. 

What to people think about this Allis Chambers lift?

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/tls/886078167.html

Do people this that it has salvage potential?

phillip


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

If it's in 'working condition' as it claims, and for that price-why not? You're getting a treasure trove of EV bits and pieces for that price...and by selling the rest piecemeal you should be able to recoup some of your costs, as the Project Forkenswift builders did.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It depends on what motors come with it, as this thread has pointed out some are better than others. Size, shafting, brushes, etc.


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## otoole (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah it seems like a stretch to have the thing towed to my backyard with out knowing enough about motors much less forklifts. My biggest misunderstanding is that this would this 36v motor be able to play a role in a 96v car?

phillip


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe. You need a lot more information about the motor before making that determination. You'd probably have to remove the motor to get a really good look at it and the shaft. For the price of that lift you could probably get a nice rebuilt 7.5 or 8 inch motor from Jim that you know will work.


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi all,

I found an other motor, see the pictures below.
It is an Iskra 11 214 273
A 24V 2100W motor. (I use it for a motorcycle)
The type plate also says: S2 = 60mm Any clue what that means?
I checked the size, the thickness of the windings and the number of connection.
Conclusion -> Series motor! 
It is in very good state and the seller told me I can bring it back if it does not work for my project!
At home I started to remove the brushes to have a better look inside. And what did I find? there is a wire connecting the brushes with the field windings. See the diagram I made:








In the diagram you can also see the connections for the field are called 1D1 and 2D2 instead of S1 and S2.
I tried to run the motor by connecting the the motor to a 12V battery. It runs, but quite slow.

So my question is. What type of motor is this? A exotic type of Series/Sepex motor? How to connect this motor? Can I just remove the extra wire to make it a normal series/sepex motor? 


































Thanks for any help,
Roel


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

roelhen said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The type plate also says: S2 = 60mm Any clue what that means?
> 
> Roel


Hi Roel,

Not sure about S2=60mm, but often the nameplate will refer to the rating and S1 is a 60 minute rating. Sure that isn't "min" and not "mm"? The rating is usually given in amps or HP.



> So my question is. What type of motor is this?


Looks like it is what they call a split series winding. This is a series motor. It uses 2 field coils, one each on opposite poles for CW rotation and then the other 2 field coils for CCW. The logic behind this is to save on the reversing contactors. Split series motors need one contactor, the standard series motor needs a pair of contactors to reverse.



> How to connect this motor?


Power A2 and 2D2 for one direction of rotation. And A2 and 1D1 for opposite rotation. A1 is provided for plugging diode connection. Not needed unless you plan to plug reverse your motorcycle. Not recommended.



> Can I just remove the extra wire to make it a normal series/sepex motor?


Not really. It would take some more work. First off, looks like your diagram is incorrect to the direction of the coil turns. The split series motor works on the consequent pole theme. That is, the 2 energized coils on opposite poles are the same polarity, say South (S). The other 2 poles which have no current in their windings become consequent poles of the North (N) polarity. Making it a 4 pole motor, which it has to be because the armature is wound that way.

Now, when the other field terminal is used, the former consequent poles are now energized as S poles and the former energized poles now become the consequent poles of N. So the S-N-S-N sequence becomes N-S-N-S and the motor rotates the opposite direction.

Now the downside to this method of reversible series motor design is that at any one time, you are just using half of the field copper. So you get twice the field resistance and voltage drop. And a little less efficiency. Not that much in the big scheme of things. Perhaps similar to the loss in the extra contactor and circuit which you have eliminated. But that loss is now in the motor causing heat. But, if each set of coils is used only half of the time, then it evens out the coil heating problems. Such as would be the case in forklifts where forward and reverse travel is about a 50/50 proposition.

So, can you wire it up for a full series motor? I guess you don't need reverse on the motorcycle. Yes. But you'll most likely need to use the 4 field coils in series parallel connection. This would require some internal modification to the coil connects to get the proper N-S-N-S.

But you can certainly use it "as is". And I'd suggest that. Keep an eye on the coil heat. If it is a problem, then you can modify it to series-parallel. The speed torque will not change much (a % or 2), but you'll reduce the field coil watts 4 fold.

Probably more than you ever wanted to know, but, hey, you asked.

major


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi Major,

thanks again. Thanks to you I was forced the dive a little deeper in the working of a DC motor with 4 poles. It took me a while to realise that the north and sound poles are not lying oppesite to each other but next to each other. You also made clear to me that I only need 2 connection points to get the motor running. No I realise that the motor is finally logic to me.I hooked it up the way you told me and it runs much faster now! 
Driving around with 2 unused windings makes me feel uncomfortable. Why carry copper around when I not use it anyway. I understand how I should modify the motor to use all the copper. But it is a risk, I probably will have to remove the fields from the housing to not damage the motor with the solder torch, and I am afraid my solder skills are to poor to make sure the connections will handle up to 400A. I can ask a company to so do it for me, but! Yesterday I found a AdvancedDC motor, 36V, the correct weight and size. First I will have a very good look if this motor iw really a normal series motor and not anything else. The other motor I can bring back, so it is no problem to change my plan.
I will keep you all updated if this ADC motor is the motor I am looking for.

Thank you a lot Major!
Roel


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## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi guys i'm new here so ill be asking a few questions if it's ok with you.

My friend and i are planning to convert my friend's 1992 nissan micra into electric. We plan to keep the original car manual transmission.

We found a Steinbock-Boss WR20 reach truck which we can strip for parts and fter having a look at the motors in this truck we found it has two very different motors as follows:

Traction Motor, short but fat, Here's what is written on it:

Make: Schaubmuller
Type: R210/4.8K
Volt: 48
Amp: 120
KW: 4.8
RPM: 2550
MET No: 50020531
SN: 970521 28-93
D-92334 Berching
ISOLKF
VDE0525
82 - 60 min IP10
Four Wires coming out of it

Pump Motor, longer but thinner, Here's what is written on it:

Make: Thirge-Titan-Electric Denmark
TTI 160c-Comp
Class H
Code No: 2321416
Sach No: 2093793
No: 3324853-9314
29Kg
310A
48V
11.8Kw
2720 RPM
Max RPM: 10,000
S3 15%
IPOO IC01
Two Wires coming out of it

So Here come the questions:

1: I dont quite know what the numbers I highlighted in red are, does anyone have any idea ?

2: Are any of these motors suitable for an EV conversion ? If so, which ?

3: They are both marked 48V but can they be fed a higher voltage? 

4: Would the higher voltage increase the RPM and make it closer to the RPM of the original engine ?

5: Would the higher voltage increase the current drawn ?

6: What type of motors are these, series or other ? would the type make a difference to the controller ?

7: What kind of controller should we be looking for to operate any of these motors correctly ?

I think that's all the questions for now.
Any help would be greatly appreciated as we are really excited about this project as it would be the first in our country ( Malta ) and we dont have any locals to turn to for help.

Thanks in advance


----------



## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm no expert (on ANYTHING, sadly) but since you have two separate RPM ratings on each motor i'm guessing that the first rating is normal for 48V and that they could be overvolted a little. Be careful though-i'm really new at EV theory and don't have any Motors of my own to explode just yet... 

I can tell you something about that second motor though. The company that makes it supplies the standard 3.3 HP motor for the City-El one passenger EV. That means you could Google Thirge Titan Electric or the City-El keywords and see if you can match the model.

Here's one, I went for one in English:

http://www.edmr.co.uk/service/thirge_titan_electric.htm

The City-El resources all seem to be in German though.

I don't find a Schaubmuller, but I did find a Schabmuller, might be your brand, and this site is bilingual German/English:

http://www.schabmueller.de/nathus-6364/history.html

Aside from that, I got nothin'. One of our more qualified Posters should happen along soon though.


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## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

Thanks, i sent an e-mail to schabmueller requesting some further details. Hope they reply.
Google doesnt seem to find much about the Thirge motor.


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## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

I got a reply to shabmueller and this is what they sent me:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/Amonra_/Kennlinie_210_249.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/Amonra_/motor.jpg

Im not sure what all of it means so im hoping someone can enlighten me.

Also why does this motor have four wires instead of two coming out of it ?

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Amonra said:


> Also why does this motor have four wires instead of two coming out of it ?


Hi Amonra,

It is a series wound motor. Four connections are needed to provide means to reverse the rotation of this motor. A1 & A2 are connections to the armature. D1 & D2 are connections to the field. The motor drawing shows this schematic in the lower right corner.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Amonra said:


> Traction Motor, short but fat, Here's what is written on it:
> 
> Make: Schaubmuller
> Type: R210/4.8K
> ...


Hi Amonra,



> 1: I dont quite know what the numbers I highlighted in red are, does anyone have any idea ?


Some idea. 82 - 60 min IP10 is probably S2 and refers to the rating, 60 minutes, which is typical for traction motors. TTI 160c-Comp may be a part #, Comp may mean "compound wound". Class H refers to the insulation rating, Class H, which is good for 180 degrees C. S3 15% again is rating info. Most likely a duty-cycle with 15% time-on and 85% time-off. Cycle time is unknown. Could be on the order of 1 to 10 minutes per cycle, repeated until thermal stabilization. Duty cycle ratings are common for lift pump motors. The other red figures are probably serial numbers and agency approvals. 



> 2: Are any of these motors suitable for an EV conversion ? If so, which ?


Yeah. Depends on your project. The larger traction motor would be my pick. Controllers for series motors are more common. And you have more info on it.



> 3: They are both marked 48V but can they be fed a higher voltage?


Probably. If the smaller motor is compound wound, it would be tricky to go higher in voltage. The traction series wound motor should be little problem. Depending on how high you go, you may need to advance the brushes to get acceptable commutation. And you need to be concerned with overspeed.



> 4: Would the higher voltage increase the RPM and make it closer to the RPM of the original engine ?


Yes.



> 5: Would the higher voltage increase the current drawn


Current is dependent on load. And the controller, for current limit. Higher voltage to the motor would create the opportunity for increased current, but in-and-by-itself will not increase the amp per torque of series motors.



> 6: What type of motors are these, series or other ?


The bigger motor, traction motor, is a series motor. The smaller motor might be a compound wound motor.



> would the type make a difference to the controller ?


Yes. Most available controllers are designed to work with series motors. You can use them for other types, but circuit modifications and "know how" may be required.



> 7: What kind of controller should we be looking for to operate any of these motors correctly ?


For the series wound traction motor, use a PWM type controller. See the threads about controllers and look at the EV Album to see what others use.

Hope that helps,

major


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## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi major, thanks for your reply.
The project car is a 1992 Nissan micra and we plan to keep the original gearbox. ideally after conversion it would have similar power, speed etc as it had with the ICE.
So the traction motor should be the best choice.
So if i where to run it in only one direction how would i connect it and would it run with the same power in any direction ?
From the supplied graph can one tell if it can run on 60V and what the RPM, current draw, etc.. would be ?
Can over speeding be controlled by some kind of a rev limiter ? is it included in the controller ?
What is advancing the brushes ? is there a special method of doing it ?

Thanks Again


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Amonra said:


> So if i where to run it in only one direction how would i connect it and would it run with the same power in any direction ?


Hi Amonra,

Connect S1 to D1, then power to S2 and D2. Polarity does not matter. If rotation is opposite from desired, connect S1 to D2, then power S2 and D1.



> From the supplied graph can one tell if it can run on 60V and what the RPM, current draw, etc.. would be ?


On that graph, the actual voltage for a given torque (and current) is the "U" line. The RPM for any given torque (and amp) can be ratio up or down for a voltage different than the "U" curve. For approximation, running 60 volts instead of 48 would be 25 percent increase. So the RPM (labeled "N") curve would be 25% higher than the curve for 48 volts. RPM dependent values like Power out (HP) (the P2 curve) would also increase 25%. The P1 curve (Power In) would also increase. The amps (I curve) will not change. Efficiency will vary only slightly, don't worry about that.



> Can over speeding be controlled by some kind of a rev limiter ?


Yes. A RPM feedback to a circuit is needed.



> is it included in the controller ?


Unlikely.



> What is advancing the brushes ? is there a special method of doing it ?


Rotating the brush holder plate or the end bell opposite the direction of rotation by 5 to 12 degrees. This depends on the voltage and current limit settings. For unidirectional use of the motor only. Using 60 volts on a 48 volt motor probably will not require this. Going to 100 volts or more probably will. Method of doing this depends on the particular motor design.

I'd go without it and see if you get excessive sparking in your application. Then worry about, if needed.

Regards,

major


----------



## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

Thanks Major you are being very helpful.
So the golden question is: if feeding this motor with 60V mounted to the micra gearbox would it give comparable performance to the original ICE ?
and if i connect it to a 60V 200Ah deep cycle/gel battery pack what would i expect the runtime to be if used with a moderate driving behaviour ?
Also would a 400A controller be enough ?

Thanks Again


----------



## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

Is there an off the shelf solution for an RPM feedback circuit ?
Does it connect to the controller ?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Amonra said:


> Thanks Major you are being very helpful.
> So the golden question is: if feeding this motor with 60V mounted to the micra gearbox would it give comparable performance to the original ICE ?
> and if i connect it to a 60V 200Ah deep cycle/gel battery pack what would i expect the runtime to be if used with a moderate driving behaviour ?
> Also would a 400A controller be enough ?
> ...


Well Amonra,

I've given you a little advice on the motor. As for the vehicle, that's all part of your conversion experience. I suggest you get one of the conversion books and/or do some research on sites devoted to vehicle calculations. Maybe others can direct you here. Good luck,

major


----------



## Amonra (Nov 9, 2008)

major said:


> Well Amonra,
> 
> I've given you a little advice on the motor. As for the vehicle, that's all part of your conversion experience. I suggest you get one of the conversion books and/or do some research on sites devoted to vehicle calculations. Maybe others can direct you here. Good luck,
> 
> major


Thank you very much, your help is much appreciated.


----------



## avewhtboy (Oct 27, 2008)

Hello this is my first post...been reading and hoping someone here can help me. I have a 90 toyota extended cab truck I am helping my father convert to electric. We bought a yale electric forklift for parts and stripped it. Was planning on using the controller from the forklift but not having a lot of luck finding what I need to get it done.

Here's some pics. Was hoping to learn more about the motor we have and hopefully get some direction to get it working.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I think your best bet would be to identify the motor before you do anything else (with the photos and nothing else, i'm assuming 'it's a Yale' is all you know at this point, but I could be wrong). Is the stamp on the motor housing intact and legible? If so, most of your info will be on the stamp, and if you can read the model no. you can hit the web for additional info. I have no idea if you could use the Controller you have or not (assuming it's in workable condition) but once you have the Motor info you can go from there.

Here's a few places i'd start digging:

http://www.yale.com/ The original manufacturers.

http://www.premierproductwarehouse.com/ The main supplier for the Yale Florida subsidiary. Lots of neat toys...i'll have to go back there tonight and drool some more...

Best of luck!


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## avewhtboy (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey thanks for the reply and the links. 

things i think i know are follows...it's a 29hp yale motor from a 90 model Yale ERC-AB and i believe the gvw of the lift was 9500lbs...4 wheel sit down model. I have all the parts and was told it was working but did not verify that with batteries so can not say for sure.

I was hoping to use the GE EV100 controller that came witht he lift since it is made for the motor and since we have it. I have schematics but they are not completely legible. I am sure someone with forklift knowlegde could help me get it working....assuming it works lol.

basically there are inputs and i suppose outputs on the terminal block on the last picture.

Wire 29 is the signal from the accelerator and i think on wire 15 the signal from the seat/handbrake switch goes there...but thats the kinda information i was hoping to find....otherwise i may just buy another controller. But would like to get this working first.

thanks for any help guys...my dad is really itching to drive this thing





order99 said:


> I think your best bet would be to identify the motor before you do anything else (with the photos and nothing else, i'm assuming 'it's a Yale' is all you know at this point, but I could be wrong). Is the stamp on the motor housing intact and legible? If so, most of your info will be on the stamp, and if you can read the model no. you can hit the web for additional info. I have no idea if you could use the Controller you have or not (assuming it's in workable condition) but once you have the Motor info you can go from there.
> 
> Here's a few places i'd start digging:
> 
> ...


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Sadly, my knowledge of Electronics begins and ends at 'Don't lick the Battery post'. Gonna have to fix that soon... 

But, i'm betting there's a built-in speed limiter on the Controller. Most low-speed vehicles(forklifts, golf carts) have them limited to a low top speed, usually 20 MPH or so. You could probably still use the original controller but you'd have to tinker a bit-hopefully your Electronics skills surpass mine at this point. Also, several Posters here have built(or are building) their own Controllers, chargers, etc-stick around and you're sure to see a few(and meet their creators).

There's a fantastic Wiki here (see right top corner) which i've only skimmed so far. Once i've finished my A+ and Network+ certs and get a real job, i'll have time to dive in myself and figure out the difference between a Resistor and a Conductor! Hopefully you're already ahead of me in that regard-otherwise keep that Class C Fire Extinguisher handy!


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Yet another one of "these" questions: I'm looking for a forklift motor to replace a 6.7" D&D ES-15A that I managed to toast. It was obviously too small to pull around the Geo Tracker that I had it in, so I'm hoping to find something rated for 200-250A continuous duty. I'm doubting that I'll find that in a 7" dia. package, but I figured I'd better exhaust all of my resources just in case. I've found a place that says they have a 7" Motor they'd sell to me for a $300 and I've got a couple of pictures. I was hoping to figure out the specs from the pictures, but I can't see any sort of plate or anything else that might indicate specifics in them. So, I thought I'd post some pics here. Does anyone recognize this motor or know anything about it?

http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail01.jpg
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail02.jpg
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail03.jpg
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail04.jpg
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail05.jpg

Thanks for any help you can give. (Or any solid leads to a good motor. . . )


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

champy said:


> Yet another one of "these" questions: I'm looking for a forklift motor to replace a 6.7" D&D ES-15A that I managed to toast. It was obviously too small to pull around the Geo Tracker that I had it in, so I'm hoping to find something rated for 200-250A continuous duty. I'm doubting that I'll find that in a 7" dia. package, but I figured I'd better exhaust all of my resources just in case. I've found a place that says they have a 7" Motor they'd sell to me for a $300 and I've got a couple of pictures. I was hoping to figure out the specs from the pictures, but I can't see any sort of plate or anything else that might indicate specifics in them. So, I thought I'd post some pics here. Does anyone recognize this motor or know anything about it?
> 
> http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail01.jpg
> http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/foremail02.jpg
> ...


That motor is a Shunt Wound motor according to the connections has F on them. If you want 200-250 AMPs cont I think you are going to need an 8" series wound.

Also you don't happen to have any pics of your fried D&D motor do you? I am curious on what "fried" looks like since I am thinking about rebuilding a motor someday for the heck of it.


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Whoops, I hadn't even caught that it was shunt-wound. Thanks for your sharp eyes! As far as my toasted D&D goes, it doesn't look damaged from the outside, and I don't dare really take it apart for fear that I'll void the warranty (while I was definitely operating it outside of the specs it should have been able to handle, I was operating it well below the specs quoted to me by the outfit that sold it to me. . . I just can't get them to return my e-mails now. . . but that's another story). If it turns out that I can't get any sort of warranty work done on it, I'll definitely pull it open and send some pics your way. Thanks!


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## truckdoctor (Nov 4, 2007)

Hi ,avewhtboy thats a sensible idea using all the parts from your old Yale forklift ,the motor and controller are suited together .The GE EV controllers are very robust and parts are readilly available .I have a diagrame for this controller from a Hyster forklift if you need it .
One point is if you intend to increase battery voltage higher than 72 volt this would be fine for the motor but not be suitable for this EV controller .Good luck


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

champy said:


> Whoops, I hadn't even caught that it was shunt-wound. Thanks for your sharp eyes!


I doubt it is shunt wound. Most likely series wound, even though someone marked the field terminals as F.

major


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Ah, thanks for the correction Major. Still, not likely to handle the load of my tracker, I'm guessing. Well. . . I'll just keep looking for a motor unless someone recognizes it as some super-once-in-a-lifetime-deal that actually handles more amps than a Car Stereo dealer. Thanks for all your help guys!


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## evz (Sep 11, 2008)

hi avewhboy

i have the same yale forklift motor (200lbs) and i also saved the controller etc with the same idea of using all the truck parts , but after more consideration changed my mind , 
my original yale controller is old and showing its age , signs of corrosion ...
so im going to buy a new controller 
im thinking 72 v 

cheers!


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi Guys,
This has got to be the best thread that I have read, regarding dc motors for EV's.

Absolutely brilliant!!

regards
Rob


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Here is a link that some of you might find useful!!

http://www.ebook3000.com/Practical-Electric-Motor-Handbook_18275.html

or direct download here:-

http://depositfiles.com/en/files/4166354

Enjoy
Rob


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Oooh, Shiny free toy!
Many thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, thank you. A Black Friday bargain


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi guys,
glad to assist!

Have tracked down an old Nissan forklift that has two 14Kw motors. One is an Italian motor (something)?.F.R and Duty cycle 50% RPM 2000 volts 48 and amps 364. Running the hydrualic pump. The other motor is a GE Class H rpm 1325 volts 48 amps 370. They are out in the weather a bit and the plates are almost impossible to read.

Any comments would be appreciated. Espaecially about the 50% duty cycle

Edit. Both motor are about 9" diameter and about 14" long

Regards
Rob


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey everyone. I found a supplier of used lift motors in San Diego, says he has over 100 motors he thinks could be used for EV's and has several matching pairs for me to look at, mainly a set from Yale (i think) trucks. 36/48v, dual ended shaft, has a brake on one end, transmission on the other. Perfect for my dual motor setup, will probably even keep one of the brake units intact if I get them. My current car shifter will be replaced by push button shifting which could then contain park, forward and reverse (or maybe just auto brake activtion when the key is turned off??)

So anyway, I'm going to look tomorrow, I'll take lots of pics and post them up. Not sure if Jim will be on here anytime soon, but is there someone else that could assist in evaluating these things in his place if he's not around? 

Anyway, great info here! I love this forum!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jim has gone into hiding again but I'm sure the rest of us will try and help as best we can. Post up those pics.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Attempt one was a bust! How annoying. 1.5 hrs of driving to meet a guy who supposedly has "over 100 motors" and "several matched pairs" to see about 7 or 8 motors and two tiny matching motors. The units he showed me were about 7" in diameter and about 16" long. Each has a brake on one end and a gearbox on the other. Rated at 36 volts, two brushes each. He claimed they'd be perfect for an EV and that they were "200 hp motors". Right... Here's some pics:


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

booksix said:


> Attempt one was a bust! How annoying. 1.5 hrs of driving to meet a guy who supposedly has "over 100 motors" and "several matched pairs" to see about 7 or 8 motors and two tiny matching motors. The units he showed me were about 7" in diameter and about 16" long. Each has a brake on one end and a gearbox on the other. Rated at 36 volts, two brushes each. He claimed they'd be perfect for an EV and that they were "200 hp motors". Right... Here's some pics:


 
Book, I would leave these for a Gokart or a VERY VERY small car, would go over 96V MAX with these motors....They are not HiPo motors...


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Yeah, that's why I was pissed! They guy made all sorts of claims on the phone so I drove there! I don't think I want to go any smaller than a pair of 9" motors


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

I have a 9 inch GE pump motor that I will let go for cheap....its a 36/48 volt motor weighs about 130 -145 lbs, has inverted spline shaft, not sure if it would be a HiPo motor though......
For what your wanting to do your going to need something more suited for that higher voltage. I wouldn't take these guys word for it on what these motors can do. 
I would look at the 11 inch warp and ask question about it.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

I need two matching motors so yours probably won't work for me.

As for the other motors, I don't mind tearing them down to advance the brushes for higher voltages...


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## avewhtboy (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey everyone....got the forklift motor installed and running here are a couple short videos





Ended up purchasing a curtis 550 amp 48 volt controller to get it running never had any luck getting the GE EV1 controller to work.

Rick


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Congrats on getting it running. What's the performance like at only 48 volts?


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## avewhtboy (Oct 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Congrats on getting it running. What's the performance like at only 48 volts?


 
Not sure exactly on performance yet...to date we have had the
truck up to about 50mph using GPS since the speedometer is not
working and the furtherst distance is about 9 miles ...probably
have put about 50 total miles on it.

Acceleration is not great but it's on par with what it was when it
had the four cylinder ICE with automatic transmission.

Rick


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's impressive at only 48 volts. You should start a thread detailing the build with all the specifications.


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## avewhtboy (Oct 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's impressive at only 48 volts. You should start a thread detailing the build with all the specifications.


 
Pretty basic...we purchased a 1990 model electric 10,000 lb
capacity forklift without any batteries for $800 and stripped
it. Used the drive motor and purchased a 5 speed transmission
from craigslist for $200. Took the transmission, a clutch disk
for that transmission and the motor to a machinist friend who
mated it all together for $500. We do not have a flywheel so
do not have use the clutch pedal seems to be shifting ok but
was a used transmission that we have no history on....

Installed it and fabbed up a simple motor mount. 

Used as much as we could from the forklift as far as cables,
contactor, fuse etc.

Purchased a refurbished 550 amp 48 volt curtis controller from ebay for $500 and a 0-05k throttle from cloud electric for $80.

Have 16 maintenance free car batteries, some from walmart some from advance auto parts....all have a 3 year free replacement  four are 
mounted under the hood and the rest are in the bed.

I think thats about it for now...definitely not done with it, we are working
on getting the power brakes working and maybe the power steering too...and would be good to get the speedo working.

48 volts may turn our not to be enough but not sure just yet.

Rick


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Hey all, got some weirdness here. I purchased a '72 Clark Forklift over the weekend and hauled it home. It has a drive motor about 12" in diameter and a pump motor that looks like a 6.7 incher. The pump motor is about 14.5" long and I haven't managed to get close enough to the drive motor to measure the length yet. The weirdness comes from what Clark MHC inc. is telling me. I wrote and asked them for the specs on the motors and they tell me the following:

1774059 Drive Motor (7.0 HP, 36V, 855 RPM, 180A)

2309886 Pump Motor (11.5 HP, 36V, 2015 RPM, 294A)

This seemed backward to me, since the drive motor is much larger, but I had them double-check and they said the specs were correct. From those specs, it seems like I should be using the pump motor, not the drive motor. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'll post pics as soon as I can if you'd like to see them. Oh, my car runs at 72 volts, so take that into account, too. Thanks in advance.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

the low rpm rating. think of it as a high voltage motor instead. more like 100V where you would need 300V to push it to EV use.the rpm rating is not its max. specs on electric motors are often very dumb. it's more a case of what it was intended for than what it can do. I'm guessing that one was intended for strong low rpm operation but it can probably do so much more at higher rpm. but since it's rated at 36V for low rpm it'll need much higher voltage to work at EV speeds. maybe 6-7000 rpm max so around 300V. I'm not really an expert but that's my 'hunch' and I think it's correct.


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Ah. A point of clarification from Clark:

"The pump motor is rated for intermittent use because it is only in use when lifting a load."

That makes more sense to me.  A local engineer also told me that he suspects that the drive motor might have more torque. I must admit that the relationship between torque and horsepower is still a bit nebulous to me, so if anyone feels like taking a stab at that particular principle I'm all ears. I guess I'll be trying to use the drive motor after all. Here comes the fun! Seriously, thanks for the input Dan and anyone else: feel free to chime in with some advice here, 'cause I'm gonna need it. You guys are great.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

champy said:


> I must admit that the relationship between torque and horsepower is still a bit nebulous to me, so if anyone feels like taking a stab at that particular principle I'm all ears.


Easy one. Power = Torque times Rotational Speed. Or in common units,

HP = (lb.ft. * RPM) / 5252

or

Watts = Nm * rad/sec

Hope that is what you wanted.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> but since it's rated at 36V for low rpm it'll need much higher voltage to work at EV speeds. maybe 6-7000 rpm max so around 300V. I'm not really an expert but that's my 'hunch' and I think it's correct.


A brushed DC motor at 300 Volts? I didn't think brushes could really deal with much more than 192 or so.


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Don't worry, I'm only running 72 volts. From what I've read on this forum, I don't think I'll really even need to advance the brushes for that, will I? (Thanks for your input, by the way).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The problem is that a motor that only turns 855 rpm at 36 volts probably isn't going to turn fast enough at 72 volts. I would think you will need to advance the brushes for 72 volts if they are neutrally timed now. I know Jim advanced them on my Yale so it could run 72 volts, even though I'm only running 48 at the moment.


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## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok, so, things are a little tighter that I realized right now and I'm considering reverting back to a cheap, sealed lead-acid based setup with a pair of lift motors. I just want to get something on the road and I'll re-assess after that. So I decided to bring these tiny motors back up. I wish I would have measured them, but, based on what I remember (and holding my fingers in a circle while a friend measures  ) they are about 7" in diameter and about 15" long. So, my question is, would these even be remotely useable coupled inline, _direct drive_? The car's curb weight is 2900 lbs so it'd probably be about 3400-3500 lbs finished. Motors are rated at 36v, pack would be 144-156v with a 700 amp controller.









Edit: I'm bored, more thinking and talking to my self! Ok, so I found this graph of torque curves. I figure this thing is probably similar to an ADC 6.7". So, if I could get 150Nm out of each motor (wired in series) I'd have 300Nm or about 220 ft lbs of torque. That's more than my beamer puts down now. Of course, the beamer has 4 gears _before _it reaches 5th gear (1.00:1 trans gear) before it's driving the rear diff direct. Still just wondering if I could make these work direct drive. I'm sure I'd have to beef up the cooling (they already have little fans on them) but I figure, if it can even get me going with my first EV that's cool. Then, when I grow out of them, or more realistically, when I can afford to step it up, these could find a home in a great local conversion of a light car...

Edit 2: And, that 300Nm/220 is before the rearend, so, what would that make it? 220 x 3.15 (rear gear ratio) = 693 ft/lbs! Woah! Now if only it was really that good... oh yeah, and, well.. idk if those motors even spin!


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Hey everybody,
Finally managed to pull the drive motor off my forklift! I've linked a few pics for your perusal and I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm a bit bewildered by a 5th terminal on this motor. It's attached to the field windings, so until I figure out what it actually is, I've dubbed it "S3." There are some pics of that too. That terminal was un-used in the forklift. As I mentioned before, Clark MHC Inc. tells me that this motor has the following specs:

1774059 Drive Motor (7.0 HP, 36V, 855 RPM, 180A)

At that low RPM, I'm basically counting on advancing the brushes. The dimensions of the motor are: 12" dia. x 14.5" long.

Drive End
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL01.jpg

Commutator End
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL02.jpg

Brushes
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL03.jpg

"S3" Terminal Inside
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL04.jpg

"S3" Terminal on top
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL05.jpg

Comparison between Forklift Motor and Old ES-15A Motor
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL06.jpg

Another Comparison
http://www.bluedesertphoto.com/motors/FL07.jpg

Enjoy!

Edit: I don't know why only one link works. You'll just have to type the next number into your browser manually. Thanks!


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## roelhen (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi All,

I finally found a good motor. Actually it was right under my nose at work but I simply did not recognize it.
It is a AdvancedDC part nr: CEO-4002. It is originally used on a Tennant cleaning machine.
The tag only says it is 36V . It is 12 inch long and has a diameter of 6.7 inch.
I already build this motor into my motorcycle frame:









My plan was to build a 72V motorcycle with it. 
But now I am actually thinking about a 120V system! I want to build in 10 pc of YTR3.7 yellow top's from Optima (They are the european variant of the D75/25). 
Does anybody know this type of ADC motor? Is there a place where I can find what the type numer of a ADC motor means? Should I turn the brushes 15 degrees to let the motor perform well on 120V?
I just now counted the number of comm bars, it is 51 or 53 (hard to count without taking the motor apart). So at 120V that means about 9.2V per bar.

Thanks again.
Roel


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Roel,
That's a good-looking fab job there! I think I'm continually impressed with some of the things people do on these forums in part because I don't have very many tools to do them myself. Nevertheless, That looks like quality work to me. I don't really know anything about that motor other than to say that 6.7" sounds like a good size for a Motorbike and 120v ought to really put you down the road fast. That said, I've got another question for everyone. I've already posted this elsewhere, but I think it might be a dead thread:

Not to be dumb, but I haven't been able to locate a straightforward answer to this question: Advancing the brushes on a motor will increase the RPM's per-volt, yes? So, if my forklift motor turns 855 RPM's at 36 volts, it should turn faster at that same voltage by advancing the brushes? Is there a formula to determine that, say, a 10-degree advancement would yield a certain percentage more speed? Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, I've searched the forums and Google and not been able to find a straight answer. Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think advancing the brushes prevents sparking at higher voltage, it's the higher voltage that allows faster rotation.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

champy said:


> Advancing the brushes on a motor will increase the RPM's per-volt, yes? So, if my forklift motor turns 855 RPM's at 36 volts, it should turn faster at that same voltage by advancing the brushes?


Hi champy,

Advancing the brushes on wound field motors is done to reduce sparking, often necessary when the motor is used at voltage higher than the design rating. When you advance the brush position, a side effect is a weakened field. So, the motor will run faster at light loads. Depends on the degree of shift, but you might see a couple of percent increase in RPM. Also an increase in current for a given torque. At high loads, the reduction in torque per amp outweighs the increase in RPM, so the brush advance results in decreased performance.

In short, don't mess with the brushes to make the motor go faster.

Regards,

major


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## Pb Cruiser (Oct 29, 2007)

Stephen, I bought a motor that is very similar to the one you have. It came out of a CAT machine and is 9.25" in diameter, about 15" in length. The end plate with the "O" ring is identical to mine. There are two curious connections on the side of the case with which I'm not familiar; the two small parallel spade connections. One is for a brush wear indication I think. The other one I was hoping you could enlighten me. Temperture? RPM? Any thoughts are appreciated, Terry


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Hmmm. . . good information, thanks for chiming in here. So, since the manufacturer tells me that this motor is an 855 RPM motor at 36 volts, and I'm only running 72 volts, I probably shouldn't advance the brush timing. At least that's what I'm gathering here. Sounds like maybe this motor would be a lot more viable at 144 volts with a bit of an advancement to mitigate arcing. At this point however, this motor replacement is stretching my budget well-beyond reasonable limits, so I guess I'll just have to have a slow vehicle until I can afford the voltage upgrade someday. Anyone have any advice as to what they would do in this situation?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that 72 volts is high enough that you need to advance the brushes to prevent arcing. I know that on my 7.5 inch Yale motor that originally ran at 36 volts, Jim advanced the brushes for proper operation at 48-72 volts. I'm running it at 48 volts, though Jim did say that if I felt I needed more low end torque I could retard the brushes. So my interpretation is that 48 volts is not high enough to require advancing but 72 volts is. The big problem I see with your motor is you will not get it to spin fast enough to move a vehicle at reasonable speeds unless you run it at 120 volts or higher, but I may be wrong and maybe the transmission will allow you to compensate somewhat.


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## lousot (Sep 23, 2007)

wow i have the same one just n0 time to take it out


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## waldoz (Oct 1, 2008)

*forklift*

They are going to get ride of a clark here at work runs fine battries are good. does not drive strait, arms worn out or somthing. Its the 3 wheel type. Anyways the max weight is 3700 for load , 36v. Is this only good for very small car? If I am lucky I will be able to strip the thing before it leaves. I will be finding out what the deal is tomorrow. 
Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: forklift*



waldoz said:


> Its the 3 wheel type.


Probably has dual drive motors.


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

champy said:


> Hey all, got some weirdness here. I purchased a '72 Clark Forklift over the weekend and hauled it home. It has a drive motor about 12" in diameter and a pump motor that looks like a 6.7 incher. The pump motor is about 14.5" long and I haven't managed to get close enough to the drive motor to measure the length yet. The weirdness comes from what Clark MHC inc. is telling me. I wrote and asked them for the specs on the motors and they tell me the following:
> 
> 1774059 Drive Motor (7.0 HP, 36V, 855 RPM, 180A)
> 
> ...


Hi there,
I suppose that you have already investigated this by now. However, if you have not looked at this problem yet, might I suggest that the "Drive" motor is a Class J (from memory) which is high temp rating and rated for 100% duty cycle - OK for EV's. The "Hydraulic" motor is likely to be class H ( from memory) and not high temp rated and only a 50% duty cycle. I think these are not suited for EV's for this reason - maybe two in parallel might work though.

Regards
Rob


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Most motors use class H and it seems to be fine for EV's. The problem I see is your drive motor is really low RPM so it won't turn fast enough at 72 volts, (maybe 1700 RPM), to give you much speed. The HP rating is lower on the drive motor because HP depends on torque and RPM, and it doesn't have many RPM's. Power (_hp_) = _Torque_ (ft-lb) * _RPM_ / 5252


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

Indeed, it _is _class H insulation. I've been mulling over the speed/torque issue here for the past few weeks and I've come to the conclusion that it's just going to have to be a slower vehicle as long as it's running at 72 volts, but that I'll eventually upgrade to somewhere between 120 and 144. To that end, I advanced the brushes 10 degrees today and I'll be mounting the motor to the transmission tomorrow. Everything is made and ready except the final pieces of the motor mount, which will be finished tomorrow after the motor is sitting in place via a cherry-picker.


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## champy (Nov 24, 2008)

And here's a few pictures of yesterday's progress for those who would like to see them.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hey all!

I`m have a Nissan 1400 pickup body and would like to have some advise on electric motor. I have 2x 14kw pump motor that rate at 8000rpm max, 8" diameter and about 15.5" long.

I would like to know must i use 2x motor, 2x curtis controller with a gearbox or without a gearbox or 1x motor 1x controller with a gearbox or without a gearbox. I would like to go fot 12312c 144v. I want speed, range, torque....what do you think? I know that pump motor are two poles 1x arm and 1x field and i can make them 4 poles 2x arm amd 2x field.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Re: forklift*

Hi 
I have just bought an old Clark Forklift and removed the motors

The traction motor is 10 inch square and 10 inch long.
There are four cables, 
four brushes 
and 84 com segments

It is about 80 kg

















































What do you think - can I use it for a light car?

There is a nice big bearing on the drive end but it will need an oil seal as it has been used with a chain connecting into an oily chain chamber

I also have the pump motor and I will put its pictures on another post


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,
The pump motor is about 6 inch in diameter and about 10 inch long,

it has eight brushes
about 28 comm segments

Unfortunately it has a female spline drive

I have taken the screws out in the brush end, removed the cap over the drive shaft and removed the circlip on the drive shaft.
The end plate with the brushes and bearings attached has come out about 3 mm but won't come any further - any ideas how I get this out - am I in danger of damaging something?


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## crackerjack69 (Feb 24, 2009)

Hello. found an advanced dc. wondering if it will work for small geo or sumthin.
Part# 140-36-4001
36v, class H
rating: AU2500 any advice on this is greatly appreciated please IM


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What size is it, diameter, length, weight?


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## crackerjack69 (Feb 24, 2009)

I can't really tell, it's still mounted and unit blongs to a relative, so i can't do anything but look. I was hoping i could look up the specs at advanced, but they wont let me. I'm pretty sure this motor is too small for anything other than an electric go cart for a child. which is handy cuz i have a child, and can mig weld. it looks small, like 8'' class H which ive heard mixd opinions about! I can't see an rpm on it but i imagine its slow cuz they use it to slowly push cars around the shop, but mebbe a different controller? I really don't know all the things i need to or wish i knew, but im wurkin on it and i WILL MAKE AN IMPACT ON MY CITY within 10 yrs of wurk, i guarantee!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Class H should be the temperature rating of the insulation, most lift motors are class H, which should be good for 180 degrees Celsius. An 8 inch ADC could actually be a nice motor for smaller cars.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,
The verdict was my last motor was too small so I have obtained a bigger one.

The case is 16 inch by 11 inch diameter - it's heavy

Hitachi 10 kw and 48 volts

There are spline drive ends on both sides, 
the comm end had a brake on it

The brake was mounted on a female spline adapter - I intend to use this to adapt to the gearbox

The comm has around 52 segments.

I intend drilling new holes to advance the brush timing by rotating the brush holder end.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Damm I forgot the pictures

See if it works this time

I was told the motor had just been re-built with new brushes and bearings
the brushes look as if they haven't worn into the comm yet


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Duncan said:


> View attachment 2478
> 
> 
> View attachment 2479
> ...


 

Hey! Duncan


This motor look like it came out of TCM forklift. They have plenty of power ,torque....... You can easy put 144 volts on it, just remember the timing. It will be nice to burn rubber


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## Davex44 (Mar 5, 2009)

Hiya. I just picked up a Meidensha DC motor. It say's it's Type HO-MRO
Output is 1.3KW, and 23.5 Volt. Probably too wimpy for a car, but is it suitable for a bike or scooter?

Thanks electric gurus!

Davex44


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## supercoupe (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi, I'm new here and looking to do a conversion on my Fiat. I have read through a lot of your post but my eyes are starting to hurt and haven't found what I was after yet.

Basically I have a line on a Hyster 50 forklift and was wondering if this would make a good motor donor.

Haven't really looked "under" it's hood so I don't have any motor pics or tag info. It seems to be a beefy unit with sideshifting forks and three stage lift if that's any help.

Thanks, and after I can see again i'll go back to reading your thread.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

Truly sorry I haven't been around but as most probably know went through a real bad 4 months dealing with cluster headaches. I'm pain free now, but I've had to focus on me a bit as I start picking up the pieces of my life per se. I'm honestly not up to jumping back onto the lists just yet and hope everyone can understand my situation. As a quick FYI to all the well wishers I've seen plenty of Dr's and these are not food or alergy caused and unfortunantly dont get relief from medications 8^(

I haven't had a cycle in four years and never had one like this one and it was like all four years hit me at once and to be honest was this much shy >< of what I believe I could take on all three levels mind, body, spirit. Needless to say, not fun times for old motor dog and as stated still looking to hide in my corner and lick my wounds a bit longer to heal my body, mind, and spirit.

That said, I feel bad I haven't replied to those looking and needing attention and I wanted to throw out a public post as to why not. I'll try and get some feedback on stuff here in a bit but have to admit am a little unsure what is still applicable and still in need of. There's a wealth of good people here so hopefully no one's been left in the dark to bad.

On that, I just wanted to drop in and say hello and see if you all missed me 8^) but also to let everyone know I'm looking for a little more time to charge my batteries before I'm ready to get back into the grind.
Cya soon
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

No 1 Task
Get well

I found the information on your threads to be very useful,
I look forwards to learning more from you 
-After you are well!

Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey Jim, glad you're feeling better finally. We've muddled along as best we can in the meantime, there's really enough info in this thread to figure most things out anyway. Pop back in when you feel up to it.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Jim,your pearls of wisdom have been sorely missed.as previously stated we have muddled along but it would be great to have you back.get healthy and and continue fanning the fire(or charging the batteries) of the EV movement!!


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey guys,

What do you think about this motor?
Specs : 24V,185A,3300W,2200rpm liftmotor from an old forklift.
I'm thinking of running it on 48V to power a quad.
Tested it yesterday with a 12V battery and it powered up great, but i'm no expert.
Thx


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey pete,

If i'm right doubling the voltage should +/- double the rpms, the current ice engine runs at 4500 rpm (it's a 4-stroke) , so it should be an ideal combination, but its rather big and heavy as you noticed, it's going to be difficult to mount and a very thight fit i think.


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

It's a 7 inch motor i think,haven't measured it but won't be far off, weighs about 60 pounds i guess. 
The drive motor is still in the forklift but i don't know the specs of that one yet, its a similar motor, only with an extra flywheel that is/was used to block the motor, like a parking brake. There are also more cables attached, 4 i think, the liftmotor only has 2.
It was impossible to get it out because i couldn't loosen the transmission. All the bolds are loose but the motor won't move. Maybe this weekend i'll try lifting the entire thing with a crane so i can pull it out from below, wheels and all, will be a lot easier to work on.
It would be easier to buy parts, i agree, but all of this is for free, so its nice to experiment with, if it doesn't work, no harm done, just a first experience in building an ev. 

Thx for the advise anyway


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I am not sure about the double the voltage double the rpm.


The way I understand it... If you double the voltage you increase the motors output by 4. Being series wound the rpm is dependant on the load. Being that there's 4x more power available I can easily see the rpm significantly increased for the same load. Might be more then twice the rpm.

To put it simple. Say the motor is 1ohm. If 100v into 1ohm is 100a then 100*100=10,000w. If 200v into 1ohm is 200 amps then 200*200=40,000w.

What's interesting is when you start plugging numbers into known motor ratings of say 36v 20hp. That's around 15kw/380a so we can calculate the motor to be about .095 ohms (v=ir). If you shove 120v into .095 ohms you will draw about 1263a. 120*1263=151,560w or about 203hp.  

The controllers current rating also plays a huge part. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Got the drive motor out today.
It's similar in size and weight as the pumpmotor but specs are less quite a bit.
Its 24V, 1250W, 75A, 2400rpm.
Got the intire forklift setup (pump and drivemotor) wired up and running on a 12V battery with the original cables,contactors and a massive potmeter, everything works but it is obvious that the pumpmotor has a lot more juice than the drivemotor.

I don't exactly know what the effect of doubling the voltage on these motors will be, i'm planning to do some measurements without load on 12v/24v/36v/48v to see the amp and rpm differences. What i do know is when you start a car (12v) with a 24v battery (only connected the starter to 24v), the startermotor turns a lot faster, so changing the operating voltage surely changes the poweroutput and rpm's of a dc motor, but in what way exactly i don't know.If i've done some measuring i'll post the results.

The problem i now face is that i don't know which one of the motors to use in the quad conversion, probably decide when i've done some measurements and take the best one (most powerfull one).

Thx 4 the feedback guys, appreciate it.


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## Davex44 (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey. I cleaned the motor out and replaced the bearings. My 5 year old daughter picked the colors. New brushes and hand made screens. I have the option of a 1989 Toyota Celica, or a 1992 Ford Festiva. The motor was rated at 1.3KW, and 23.5 Volt. So if I advance the timing, and pound it at 96 volts, what car would you choose? So many variables.. 
Dave


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey dave,
Motor looks great but i can't help you with your question, i'm just trying to get a hang of the basics myself.
grtz


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Celica has my vote. 

oh and by the way. You can over rev your motor running higher voltages with no load. Welcome to series wound.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Gene

Do not attempt to run your motors without a load on them at 36 volt let alone 48 volt as you'll over rev them and more than likely blow the comm bars out. Do you have anyway to test what RPM they are spinning at under just 12? Just a quick note hoping to save you some heart ache.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torqe Electric


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey jim,
Thx for the warning, i'm new at this so any advise is very welcome.
I've ordered a laser rpm-meter, normally should have it some time next week and should accurately measure rpms of rotating axis.
For the moment i only have the data of the id tags on the motors.
Could already do a measurement of the amps on 12 volts,thats no prob.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

your welcome? =(

Hey Jim did you get my email with the motor pics?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Gene

Keep the RPM's below 5K just to be safe. Would care to guess you're at 2-3K at 12 V.

Laz, Not that I can see or recall.
Jim


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

hi jim , good to hear from you . hope you are doing better .


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey guys,

Did some experimenting with the forklift motors and wiring i have.
First i eliminated all unnecessary wiring that was still attached. Borowed an rpm meter from my neigbour (he actually did the measuring).
The pumpmotor is a compound wound motor (just 2 cables to connect) and performes rather well considering its age (build in '79, found a tag in the wiring). At 12V it does 2500 rpm,stable, on startup 50A, stabilized at 15A with no load.
The drivemotor is a series motor, same age, but is doesn't run as smooth as the pumpmotor. At 12V it does 1500 to 2000 rpm, not stable, probably due to the ancient potmeter used as controller. On startup 35A, stabilized at 20A to 25A with no load.I also noticed a voltage drop, only got 9V to 10V instead of the expected 12. I think that the potmeter in causing this, it's basicly a solid copper slide with 2 resistors tot regulate the voltage (it gives 3 voltages : 4V-5V/7V-8V/9V-10Vmax).
Which motor would i choose to mount on the quad?
I feel like choosing the pumpmotor just because it runs smoother and has more power,brushes and windings also look in better shape.


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## Will-E (Apr 20, 2009)

Hello,
I am new to this forum . I have been converting a '46 Jeep Willys cj2a to electric and have been checking in from time to time. I am trying to get this all together on a small budget and it seems a major savings potential is using a Forklift motor. I'm just not that savy in the finer points of Motor-ology and am a bit worried about buying a bad or not usefull motor(thusly negating the "major saving"). Jim....you have put a ton of great info up to help out a bunch...Thanks!! I have found a oufit via E-bay that deals in a bunch of used Forklift motors. Do you think this is a good route? What do you think of any of the motors they are selling
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mhwc

Thanks
Will-E


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi Davex44
Is that Meidensha motor a series wound, or seprately excited ( SepEx ) ? From my experiance, most TCM lift trucks use a Sevcon based SepEx system.


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Hey Will-e,

Regarding MHWC, I bought a motor from them just last month. I had to drive 120 miles (one way) to get there, as they will not ship. They run a nice business and they sell you exactly what they advertise. I bought an ADC for the bargain price of $50.

I can't use the motor in my car as it is too small, but that is MY fault. I didn't read the ad carefully enough. But the motor I got will work fine in a lighter car, and it will make a motorcycle scream. That will likely be my next project.

When more people find out about them, I'm sure their prices will go up! But for now, they are well worth the drive.

MIKE (1985 Fiero, 12" GE forklift motor)


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## Will-E (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks Mike.
FYI
I contacted MHWC and they very quickly got back to me to let me know that they started shipping their items by freight. Thats great news. It seemed reasonable too


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Outstanding! I'll be interested to know what the shipping will cost. I'll be keeping an eye on their site, and hopefully I'll be able to scoop up another bargain.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

MHWC is a good company. I've bought quite a few motors from them.

Alot of the inventory hasn't been pulled yet and they have a huge yard. If you know what your looking for, at least the motor diameter, call and ask. They are prompt in returning your calls.

They have TONS of 8" ADC motors.

847-697-9200 and for Ramiro. Tell him that Jeff sent you.


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi,

It's my first post here and I would like to start by telling all of you how impressed I am with your knowledge, enthusiasm and willingness to share and help others.

I'm an IT engineer from Romania with fair knowledge of electronics but only basic understanding of electric motors. I have set my mind to convert a small old Ford that I own and I would like to start with the motor: I own two DC motors, from a Bulgarian forklift manufacturer "Balkancar", and I hope, with your expert assistance, to determine if and how I might use one or both of them.

Let me start by attaching the only (fragment of a) label that I have for these motors. The size is aprox. 200mm (7.8") in diameter with 320mm (12.5") in length.

Later edit: Some more (bigger) pictures ... http://www.aircooled.ro/fol474739/miscelaneous/electric-conversion/

Best regards,
Adrian (charlie)


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## Will-E (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi,
In keeping with the donor forklift theme, does the drive motor of a forklift use a controller suitable for a road worthy EV. In other words is that something else I could find at MHWC or similar type salvage....that seems to a major expense that is hard to get around and am looking down all avenues.
thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Will-E said:


> Hi,
> In keeping with the donor forklift theme, does the drive motor of a forklift use a controller suitable for a road worthy EV. In other words is that something else I could find at MHWC or similar type salvage....that seems to a major expense that is hard to get around and am looking down all avenues.
> thanks


Generally I'd so no, unless you are sticking with the original low voltage setup of 36/48 volts.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> But for sure your motor is a compound wound motor
> Pete : )


Hey Pete,

I doubt it is a compound wound motor. It is likely a series motor with a split field so it can be connected in series (4 coils in series) or in series/parallel (2 coils in series, 2 pair in parallel). All the field terminals are labeled with D. In this country, that would be S. For series coils. On compound motors, the F is usually used for the shunt field terminal, in the USA. He can confirm this by taking a resistance reading on the 2 sets of coils.

The series (S) to series/parallel (S/P) was used to get a higher resistance, higher flux field for starting in S. And then a switch to S/P for a lower resistance, higher RPM for running. This required a few more contactors, but was useful with the old controllers. It is not needed today with the high frequency PWM controllers. He can just permanently connect the fields in S/P with an external jumper. But he has to be sure he phases them correctly, you know, like N, S, N, S.

Regards,

major


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

Wow! You guys rock! Thank you Pete, you have recognised the beast! 

My intention is to build a low voltage EV out of a 1962 Ford Anglia 105e that I had restored years back and it's still waiting for a propulsion system  It's a light and small car, I was considering 48V with this motor. How would you suggest I go about it? If I buy a sepex controller how would I connect it/set it? I had my eyes on a kelly KDC48600 (series, no regen) or a KDC48602 (sepex, adjustable field current ) ...

Best regards,
Adrian

L.E.: I have connected the motor to 12v in various set-ups, perhaps if I list my observations you can tell more about the internal configuration


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

major said:


> Hey Pete,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Hi Major,

The resistance on D1-D2 as well as on D3-D4 is too low to read accurately on my ohmmeter. All I can say is: very low on both.

Regards,
Adrian


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

charlie said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> The resistance on D1-D2 as well as on D3-D4 is too low to read accurately on my ohmmeter. All I can say is: very low on both.
> 
> ...


This would confirm it is a series motor with the series field split in two sets of coils. Not compound. A shunt field (as in a compound motor) would have given you a reading likely in the 100 Ohm range. Whereas series field coils will have resistance in the milliOhm range. Too low for meters to read. Takes a bridge to measure resistance that low.

major


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

Pete, Major,

Thank you both for your help. To summarise, we now know for sure that I have a series wound motor, split field wound. 
There are 4 cores (poles?) in the stator. 

What's still to be determined:
A. what kind of controller is best suited to make an EV motor out of this forklift motor.
B. how to connect the chosen controller.
C. do I need to modify the motor in any way to run it on 48V? How about 60V or 72V?

If it helps to better understand the internal connection of the split field I would like to enumerate the "tests" I have made:

1. 12V to the armature coil (A1 +12 ; A2 GND) and to the field coils (D1 +12; D3 GND; D2 connected to D4) - slow and smooth rotation of the motor. High current! (connecting steel wires that I have used between posts get red hot)

2. As before inverting one of the field coils: (A1 +12 ; A2 GND) (D1 +12; D4 GND; D3 connected to D4) - motor is stalled!

3. 12V to the armature coil (A1 +12 ; A2 GND) and to one of the field coils ((D1 +12; D2 GND) - faster rotation then 1; not as smooth.

4. Series connection: A2 +12V; A1 connected to D1; D2 connected to D4; D3 GND - fast rotation (as in 3); not as smooth as 1


That's what I have done until now. I would like to hear what do you think of it and I will appreciate any advice on the issues (A to C) or any suggestion of what should I do to get more info (I wanted to avoid dismantling the motor completely to be able to measure the wire thickens...) 

Thank you all so much,
Adrian


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

charlie said:


> any suggestion of what should I do to get more info (I wanted to avoid dismantling the motor completely


Charlie,

Do this test. A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D2. Leave D4 unconnected. Which way does it rotate?

Then do this. A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D4. Leave D2 unconnected. Which way does it rotate?

The motor should rotate o.k. with just half field. Just use a 12 volt battery. This should tell us how to wire it for S/P.

major


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

major said:


> Charlie,
> 
> Do this test. A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D2. Leave D4 unconnected. Which way does it rotate?
> 
> ...


I'll do it after work tomorrow. Well ... today. It's 1AM over here now  

Thanks again,
Adrian


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D2.

clockwise


A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D4. 

anti-clockwise


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

charlie said:


> A2 to Battery +. A1 to D1 to D3. Battery - on D2.
> 
> clockwise
> 
> ...


O.K. charlie,

This tells me how you need to wire this motor for permanent S/P field. Connect D1 to D4, call it D14. Connect D2 to D3, call it D23.

For CW rotation, Connect A2 to Battery +, A1 to D14, D23 to Battery -.

For CCW rotation, Connect A1 to Battery +, A2 to D14, D23 to Battery -.

Try it with 12 volts.

Regards,

major


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

I get it. That means I will use the field coils in parallel. This means more current in the field = more speed (less torque) right?

So, you believe that the best way to use this motor is by configuring it in S/P and using a series controller (no regen). Could you estimate what kind of controller would be OK for this motor? What would be the maximum current it should be able to provide? Would 72V be to much for this motor as it is? ... Endless stream of questions .... I do hope I'll be able to help other the way you do with me now.

Thank you,

Charlie

P.S. I'll go check-out how it runs on 12V in S/P config and start designing the adaptor plate ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

charlie said:


> I get it. That means I will use the field coils in parallel. This means more current in the field = more speed (less torque) right?


Hi charlie,

Means the 4 field coils will be in S/P, or have two current paths. This does not mean more current in the field. The field (taken as a whole, all 4 coils) will always have the same current as the armature. No matter how you wire the field, S or S/P. It is the definition of "series motor".

When the 4 field coils are in series, they have "full amp-turns" and "full resistance" for the set as a whole. When in S/P, the 4 field coils have "half amp-turns" and "one forth resistance" for the set as a whole.

The half amp-turns for the S/P connection will cause higher RPM and less torque for a given armature current value.

But the 4 times greater resistance for the S connection will likely cause overheating in the field coils. The S connection for these types of motors is designed for intermittent use when starting. For prolonged operation, the fields need to be in S/P.



> So, you believe that the best way to use this motor is by configuring it in S/P and using a series controller (no regen).


Yes.



> Could you estimate what kind of controller would be OK for this motor?


The best you can afford from a company who will stand behind their product.



> What would be the maximum current it should be able to provide? Would 72V be to much for this motor as it is?


Again, a question of what you can afford. More amps, the better. More volts, the better.

Good luck.

major


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Any idea if this is a good motor: Raymond 5BT1341B7 motor. I can pick it up locally for $325.00 from a industrial machines store. My intended use is a 2 seater reverse trike of custom design with an anticipated dry weight of ~1200lbs. 

-Jim


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## Davex44 (Mar 5, 2009)

Forklift Guy said:


> Hi Davex44
> Is that Meidensha motor a series wound, or seprately excited ( SepEx ) ? From my experiance, most TCM lift trucks use a Sevcon based SepEx system.


Hey Forklift Guy! 
How do I tell the difference between series wound and Sepex? Sepex no good?

Thanks, Davex44.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

I saw a Hyster and a Clark on that Ebay post (sorry didn't write name down). Both big motors and if you don't mind hauling a little extra weight, I'd go with the Hyster (sounds as if they might have better options though).

I see Jeff's been taking good care of EVeryone (show off ) but thought I'd throw my two cents at charlie. If you went to 72V on that motor I'd advance it a bit. It's hard to put a real scale on the motor for actual size. I can see from the one pic that the coils and arm windings look good color wise. I can't see how big the brushes are, nor the comm, so it's abilities are somewhat hard to determine from the pics so far. Anyway, see if you can throw a picture of the brush comm area up. 

I don't see a fan on it (it might be on the brush end in that shroud) where if not I'd see if you could blower cool it to increase it's duty cycle.

King:

That's a GE version of the MNE-4002 Prestolite motor which should be a 570-215/100 and was run at 36 volts. It's a nice 9" motor but! has a small length comm and just 4 brushes. The original prestolite's started with a thin MCP brush but later upgraded to a wider MEE brush which was more like what the GE motors had in them. EVen still, those motors had bad brush issues (probably more from just asking more than they could do). That said, this would make a good MC motor but a poor car motor.

Anyway I've been trying to get more proactive here and thought I'd stopped in from the "someones posted" email I got, but just checked in and there's 3 new pages posted, lol. Hope I got EVerybody.
Jim


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Pete, Jim:
Man reading through this thread, you two have been a real asset to the EV community thanks a lot!
I'll pass on the motor above and continue to look for a bargain using the guidelines in this thread. Thanks again!

Jim,
I went to your webpage and didn't see any motors for sale. Do you still sell your rebuilds? If so, how do I get more info?

-Jim


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

If any of you guys are local to northeast Illinois I have 4 motors. I believe 3 of them are ADC 8" and one is a GE 12". All 4 run. One 8" has a bad bearing on the output shaft. One 8" is sepex. I'm converting a 4 door sedan so their just a bit small to give me the acceleration I want out of the car. They would be good for a "Geo sized" conversion.

The 12" monster is rated for 20hp 1hr. Takes two people to lift it. If I painted it it'll look like a warp.

PM me if your interested and I'll go get some pics. Right now they are in storage.

Price around $150

Hopefully the mods don't mind me posting it here. I had kingjamez in mind because I think $350 is too much for what he's looking at. Where you located kingjamez?


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> .... but thought I'd throw my two cents at charlie. If you went to 72V on that motor I'd advance it a bit. It's hard to put a real scale on the motor for actual size. I can see from the one pic that the coils and arm windings look good color wise. I can't see how big the brushes are, nor the comm, so it's abilities are somewhat hard to determine from the pics so far. Anyway, see if you can throw a picture of the brush comm area up. ...
> 
> I don't see a fan on it (it might be on the brush end in that shroud) where if not I'd see if you could blower cool it to increase it's duty cycle.


Hi Jim,

Thank you. I will get a picture of the brush comm area and post it. There is a fan in there!

In the mean time, the Bulgarian manufacturer that I contacted via e-mail the moment Pete recognised my motor as a "Koslov", has replied to my email with the following:



> Hi,
> It is probably ET 3/3.8/18-03 or an old version of it.
> Attached is a drawing.
> The motor is a series one with 3kW power at 38V and 1800rpm.
> ...


and he also sent me a pdf with a very similar, current production, motor dimensions and specs (solving a lot of my problems on the adapter design),

Adrian


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

charlie said:


> BRG,
> Plamen Nakev,
> Balkancar "G. Kostov" JSC


That sounds like Plamenator on this board.


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

lazzer408 said:


> I
> 
> Hopefully the mods don't mind me posting it here. I had kingjamez in mind because I think $350 is too much for what he's looking at. Where you located kingjamez?


Lazzer,
Man I wish I was closer to you, I'd snap one of those up in a second. Unfortunately I'm in Maryland, but thanks!

Now... back to studying Jim's rebuild pictures!
-Jim


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi davex44

You can simply tell a separately excited dc motor by the size of the cables on the field coil terminals of the motor if you get to see it while it is still in the forklift. The SepEx motor will have much smaller cables on the field terminals.

I assume by your pics that you might not have access to the forklift anymore, so if you can post the motor No# and any other no#s that you have ( Forklift Model and Serial no # would help alot ), i can look it up at the shop on Monday.

Brad
Forkliftguy.


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## idslayer (Apr 24, 2009)

Hello everyone,

I just purchased a Datsun SYBO2L28V forklift as scrap. No forks and like everything else, batteries not included. At the heart of the beast s a DC model MT4100, 10 kwh Hitachi motor. That's the propulsion motor. I have some pics I will share, but it looks like I will need to upload them to another site, 1st, to link to.

My buddy was looking to see what drives the hydraulic lift boom and found another Hitachi DC MT4100, 11 kwh motor! I haven't got any pics of this one yet, -- it is encased on the lower left side, about mid-way on the machine. It's so clean you could eat off it!

The White Zombi is driven by 2 MT4100 Hitachi motors hooked up in series. http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php

The controller is mounted in a cavity in the counter-weight on the back & the schematics are on the inside of the protective plate steel door. I have pics of all & all looks quite clean, including the contact points. 

So far, I've removed the meters, BMS, throttle, directional, horn and wiring harness, back as far as the propulsion motor. I'm labelling everthing as I go, and taking plenty of pics. I'm hoping to incorporate all of into my donor vehicle, which I haven't decided on, yet. I own 3 rather ugly possibilities, all with auto transmissions. One's a 4x4. 

Do I even need a tranny? What about an overdrive gear? How about an electric overdrive?

Then there's the batteries... According to Joh Weyland and crew, "it's the batteries, stupid". 

I'm just getting started, and operating on a beggar's budget, so this project might take some time, but I want to do it right, and document the whole process to properly demonstrate the phenomonal viability of electric propulsion.

I really appreciate all the efforts that have gone on before me, and the cooperative spirit that is inherent throghout this forum, with all the accumulated experience that's being shared here. I look forward to joining you all in this worthy endeavour to promote this clean and efficient electrifying propulsion of humanity into the twenty-first century.

Cheers eh,
Dave


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi idslayer

Im useing the same Hiatchi drive motor for my Ford Ranger conversion. See " EV Ranger " in the garage section. I do think that the drive motor is overkill even for my Ranger, but it was so eazy to make a clutch/trans adaptor out of the brake yoke on the back of the drive motor ( same spline on both ends of the motor ) As for the Hitachi 11 kw lift motor, it has a male splined shaft that goes into a female splined coupling with a set screw, that adapts to the male splined hyd pump. It might also make a good clutch/trans adaptor for an EV.

The rest of the forklift is 48 volts, so it's not possible ( ie: practical ) to use in an EV, even the speed pot is an electronic hall effect position sensor, instead of a regular 5k ohm pot found in most other forklifts. You can salvage alot of hardware, like cables, fuse holders and links, maybe even the contactors might have a future use depending on your EV's voltage/amperage requirements.

I went with the Hitachi drive motor, 144 Volt / 800 Amp controller from ElectroCraft, GE contactors from a Hyster forklift, and a regular 5k ohm pot box from the same Hyster. Once you deside on your battery pack voltage, you will have to advance the timing in the motor accordingly, mines 12.5 degrees advanced for 144 volts. At the present time i'm adapting a tach with a shift light to use as a speed limiter. The highest RMP i might go is 4500 RPM. Just a final note, don't lift the drive motor out of the forklift with a bolt/lifting eye in the threaded hole in the centre of the motor. The threads arn't strong enough for the weight and might pull the threads out. Use a lifting strap around the motor to lift it, just for safety.

Best of luck !!!!
Brad
forkliftguy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

And plan on using a transmission.


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## idslayer (Apr 24, 2009)

Forklift Guy said:


> Hi idslayer
> 
> "the drive motor is overkill even for my Ranger".


Thanks Forklift Guy.
I had a look @ your Ranger in the garage. It looks like a full-size truck.

There's a full-sized '95 Dodge 4x4, 5-speed standard tranny, extended cab with a blown motor that I might be able to get for 500 bucks. It's a clean looking vehicle but with over 400,000 kms on it. I don't know anyhing about the service history, yet, but it has good tires on it  Do you think it would be an appropriate donor for my Hitachi motor?

Could the Hitachi 48 Volt hydraulic steering motor be adapted to maintain fluid pressure in an automatic transmission, like in my little GMC 4x4 pick-up truck?

As for batteries, I just emailed an inquiry to powergenix.com. Their nickel zinc looks promising. I'm thinking 144 volts, minimum. At any rate, it looks like I'l be needing a sponsor...

Thanks also for the tip about using a lifting strap around the motor to lift it. 

Cheers eh,
Dave


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

Hi Dave

The full size Dodge Ram Ext Cab 4x4 would work fine with your Hitachi motor, the problem is that a truck that size might consume 800 watts per mile or more. It would be hard to pack that much battery to get any reasonable distance out of it.

As for using a power steering pump & motor, i considered using that kind of setup on an automatic trans, and the power steering box, on the same pump. Since then, i found the little Ford Ranger with a 5 speed, so i'm using a 12 volt lift pump motor from a small pallet truck to turn my OEM power steering pump.

Best of luck
Brad
forklift guy


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*Need advise please about my motor*

Jim Husted,

I have recently discovered this very informative forum and after reading quite a lot of this thread have taken a second look at a forklift motor I picked up a few years ago that I thought had no possible application in a proposed EV. The opinion I'm reading here says it may indeed. Could you please comment?

Allis Chalmers Frame 725B3
HP 3.6
Volts 36
Amps 95
Duty 1 Hr.
Service factor 1.0
Field excitation volts 36
ins.class B
Temp rise degrees C winding 90, commutator 105.

It weighs 208 lbs. It is 11-1/2" diameter and the length of the central pipe containing the stator but not including the end bells is 11". With end bells but not including the shaft protrusion out both ends 16". It has four heavy brushes at quadrature points. There are a lot of segments (bars) in the commutator, so presumably I can probably pour quite a bit of voltage to it. One end had a machanical brake which I removed. The other end has a pinion gear on it apparently intended to bolt up to a rear differential with mating hypoid ring gear. The armature and field terminals (4 total) are separate so reversing is easy.

I'd like to put it in a small car like my old 1984 hatchback, rear wheel drive Toyota Celica GT and drive the automatic transmission. I'd like to be able to cruise at 70 MPH for highway, and normal slower city driving.

I might consider a battery pack of 120 volts at 150 Amp hour rating. I could do that with 30 pieces, 12 volt @51 Ah Hawker Power Safe SBS60 batteries which I have access to. At 40.7 lbs. each that pack would weigh 1221 lbs. If I could get away with 100 Ah rating, a 120 volt pack of 20 batteries would weigh less at 814 lbs.

Regards,
rcavictim
Ontario, Canada


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

3.6hp? Sure that's not 13.6hp? Seems low for a 208lb motor.  Post pics.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

lazzer408 said:


> 3.6hp? Sure that's not 13.6hp? Seems low for a 208lb motor.  Post pics.


That is correct. 36 volts X 98 Amps = 3528 watts. At almost 1 kW to make a HP, that figures right. Obviously when you make more volts and amps available the power shows up.

I am unable to post pics as the only ones I have exceed the posting file size limits. I need to get picture editing software installed on my 'puter.


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

rcavictim said:


> That is correct. 36 volts X 98 Amps = 3528 watts. At almost 1 kW to make a HP, that figures right. Obviously when you make more volts and amps available the power shows up.
> 
> I am unable to post pics as the only ones I have exceed the posting file size limits. I need to get picture editing software installed on my 'puter.


I know how many watts in a hp. It's the WEIGHT of the motor. It doesn't take 208lbs of copper and iron to make a 3.6hp motor.  208lbs but only 3.6hp 1hr rating? Very conservative imo.

Get Microsoft image resizer. 521 KB
http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/Install/2/WXP/EN-US/ImageResizerPowertoySetup.exe

Rightclick the picture>resize It doesn't get any easier.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Or use an online image resizer like this: http://www.resize2mail.com/
It's a little slow if you have a very large image file but it works.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*my Allis Chalmers motor*

Lazzer,
I meant no patronizing tone when I was confirming the nameplate hp rating. Yes indeed, as you suggest this 'beast' must be really conservative in it's ratings.

JRP3,
Thank you for that resizer link. I have attempted to post two pictures of my motor. I apologize for the poor quality of the photos.

The commutator is practically like new and the bearings are good. When I got it several years ago I power washed it and then let it sit on the cold damp floor of my shop where condensation has caused a lot of ugly surface rust to appear. This will clean up like new and get a paint job if I determine it is worthwhile using it for my small car EV project. This motor was used in my lab two summers ago as a dummy load for a 48 volt PWM controller that I made from scratch based on the SG3525 chip for my electric bicycle EV based on a Honda CB360 twin cylinder motorcycle.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: my Allis Chalmers motor*



rcavictim said:


> The commutator is practically like new and the bearings are good.


Yeah,

Comm looks nice. Leave that film on there. Don't clean the comm or get oil on it.

The low one hour rating is due to the class B insulation and absence of an internal fan. The drive end looks totally enclosed. So it will be difficult to force air thru the thing. But if you can figure how to, it will help a lot. With class B, 50 degrees C lower than class H, which most are now a days, you can't run this as hard. And those pigtails on the brushes are on the thin side. That could be a limiting factor on your current limit.

I think Allis Chalmers stopped making their own motors for lift trucks back around 1975 or 1980. Looks like an oldie, but goodie.

Regards,

major


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*Re: my Allis Chalmers motor*



major said:


> Yeah,
> 
> Comm looks nice. Leave that film on there. Don't clean the comm or get oil on it.
> 
> ...


 
Major,

Thank you for the helpful comments. I suppose brushes with heavier pigtail leads can be purchased. These look similar to other brush photos I've been looking at in the much newer motors. As for lack of a fan and airflow, brilliant observation! Ding, that hadn't occured to me at all. I suppose I could punch a few exhaust vents in the front end and install screens. A manifold could be fabricated to attach pressurized air from an external blower to the brush inspection holes. I could run the blower off the rear tapered shaft where the brake originally went. The class-B insulation is an unfortunate limiting factor.

I have another motor that is much smaller diameter rated at 19 something horsepower, 36 volts at much higher amps and 5 minutes duty cycle per hour. It came with a Cesna hydraulic pump on it with internal splined shaft receptacle on this motor as the output, one end only. It may have been a hydraulic pump from a forklift. Only weighs about 98 lbs. IIRC. Brush gear is MUCH heavier and it has a fan in it. Obviously it will need drastically beefed up cooling. Motorcycle motor????? Insert evil laugh here. Mua ha ha. I'll grab a photo or two and the data.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey ID Slayer

White Zombie is not using the motor you stated but a pair of Advance8" motors as just an FYI (trust me on this lmao!! 8^)

RC:

Your motors seen better days but from the pics you sent me still valid on the inside. As Jeff noted it's got no fan and probably not the best of end plate to mount from but doable. As an option you could build a blower band for it where one side has the intake tube and the other side has an exit hole where you could at least blow air across the brushes and comm which will be the area generating the most heat. I did this on an 11" motor that was basically enclosed and attached a small piece of expanded metal to the exit hole to keep crap and fingers from getting in. In many ways some of the older motor were made back when meat was cheap and in fact can have better parts compared to what's found in newer motors where costs seem to play a bigger role than quality. Hard to say the exact condition of this motor from the couple pics sent but most of the lets call it ugly seems to be on the outside due to eviroment it was in.

Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque electric


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Welcome back, Jim

Long time no see.


----------



## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*I have a smaller Allis Chalmers motor to evaluate*



Hi Torque Electric said:


> RC:
> 
> Your motors seen better days but from the pics you sent me still valid on the inside. As Jeff noted it's got no fan and probably not the best of end plate to mount from but doable. As an option you could build a blower band for it where one side has the intake tube and the other side has an exit hole where you could at least blow air across the brushes and comm which will be the area generating the most heat. I did this on an 11" motor that was basically enclosed and attached a small piece of expanded metal to the exit hole to keep crap and fingers from getting in. In many ways some of the older motor were made back when meat was cheap and in fact can have better parts compared to what's found in newer motors where costs seem to play a bigger role than quality. Hard to say the exact condition of this motor from the couple pics sent but most of the lets call it ugly seems to be on the outside due to eviroment it was in.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Jim,

Thanx for the input!

I have another motor here. This is a 7-1/8" diameter about 15"long. Allis Chalmers from the same source so maybe off the same lift.

Frame 450CSV2
H.P. 11.5
RPM 2015
Volts 36
Amps 294
Winding- COMPOUND (only two terminals to outside world)
Deg. C rise- windings 115
-commutator 130
Insulation class - F

weight 102 lbs. (?)

This one has an exhausting blower on the output end, sucks air in through the brush service ports and pulls air through the entire motor. The cast aluminum blade does not have many fins, is a rough casting and doesn't look very effective compared to what could be done with an external blower IMO. This is also a candidate. I need to determine which one would be better suited for my car project assuming time will be spent improving whichever motor of the two I decide to use.

This one has much less commutator bars than the physically larger series wired capable motor mentioned earlier.

Am I correct in assuming that a compound wound motor will not have as much locked rotor and slow RPM torque as can be had from a series wound? Are compound wound motors suitable for EV's using a simple PWM controller and a transmission to achieve reverse motion?
Can a compound wound motor provide regenerative braking with the proper controller?

I'll post pictures of this second motor shortly.

Regards,
rca


----------



## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

*Re: my Allis Chalmers motor*



rcavictim said:


> Lazzer,
> I meant no patronizing tone when I was confirming the nameplate hp rating.


None taken. 

Looks like a beast alright. fwiw the motor I used in my Metro (70s Baldor) was 1/2 the size of yours and it didn't have a fan. I had a blower motor ready but after some testing it turned out I didn't even need it.


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## idslayer (Apr 24, 2009)

Forklift Guy said:


> As for using a power steering pump & motor, i considered using that kind of setup on an automatic trans, and the power steering box, on the same pump. forklift guy


Thanks Brad for the scoop on watts per mile on bigger truck applications. I haven't committed to a choice of doner vehicles yet, and range is an important consideration.

Just as important is the potential to incorporate an automatic transmission, opening up a broader consideration of doner vehicles. 

So it is your contention that it is possible to run power steering and an auto tranny off of the 48 v. motor-driven power steering pump that is in my Datsun forklift?

Cheers eh,
Dave


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: I have a smaller Allis Chalmers motor to evaluate*



rcavictim said:


> Am I correct in assuming that a compound wound motor will not have as much locked rotor and slow RPM torque as can be had from a series wound?


Hi rca,

Yeah, lower stall torque and finite no load speed for compound vs series motors. And overload commutation can be worse, meaning some more sparks on full voltage starts. Mid range (like one hour rating neighborhood) torque, speed, amps will be about equal to series equivalent.




> Are compound wound motors suitable for EV's using a simple PWM controller and a transmission to achieve reverse motion?


Maybe. Depends. Using a PWM controller means you are starting the motor at very low voltage. So the shunt field in the compound motor sees the low voltage, and draws low current and produces little MMF. In other words, does not do much. Once the motor speed is up and there is a higher voltage to the motor, the shunt field is doing its job, contributing to torque and back EMF. So it will make the motor run slower than just a series motor would. In a nutshell, the response from the PWM will be different.

And you must take care if you run above rated voltage as the shunt field will draw more current and overheat.

Some say there is a transformer interaction between the series and shunt fields under PWM. The two fields have quite different time constants. It is a problem? Don't know. I have a 6 inch compound motor wired to a Curtis series motor controller on my small tractor. With a 3 spd plus rev axle. Been running strong for like 13 years. Only 48 volts, 225A.




> Can a compound wound motor provide regenerative braking with the proper controller?


Yes. "with the proper controller" That is the catch. Any motor can regen with the proper controller. Is a compound easier than with a series motor? Probably. I have no idea where you can get the proper controller. You could make one. You'll have to somehow by-pass the series field during regen as it will be in the wrong polarity. And then, field control regen will only work down to base speed unless you get a half bridge chopper, like used for regen capable SepEx systems.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hope this helps.
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque electric


Hey Jim,

About time you showed up.  Hope you're back in action. Race season starting. Bet there will be some basket cases for you. And I've tried to send some leads your way.

Regards,

major


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*my second, smaller motor for evaluation*

Here are photos of the smaller motor I also have just described. This is the COMPOUND WOUND motor. Is this adequate for a small car EV application? Say 2700-3000 lbs. GVW including batteries? Highway speed required.

In a nutshell I am trying to get advice about which of my two motors appears to be the best candidate for my proposed small car EV based on availability of a 120 volt 150 Ah battery pack and a transmission to make reverse possible with a simple PWM controller (no H-bridge design). 

I can make the controller myself to save much $$$. I was joking to a friend that with 120 volts available a Hg ignitron (I have two NL1062 water cooled NIB here) would become practical. I even considered a pendulum mount to take care of gravity through corners to keep the mercury at the bottom of the tube so that power would not fade in hard cornering.  Yes I'm possibly kidding here folks. However, I lean towards tubes here in my own DIY world because of their old school attraction to this old school fart. Wouldn't run anything else in my home stereo systems. If a stocked ignitron could sub for shelling out $hundreds for MOSFETS or IGBT's I would actually consider it.  I DIY everything because I can afford to purchase almost nothing. Medical disability and unable to work normal hours makes creativity a necessity for me..


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*NL1062 Ignitron + history lesson*

BTW, for the young uns here tubes containing a small pool of mercury and a refractory material flashing electrode (trigger electrode) to vaporize the mercury upon trigger command were the SCR's of yesterday in the motor control and welder power control industry. Very reliable and could easily switch many thousands of amps. This one is only a foot tall and has an integral chrome water jacket for liquid cooling. I built a capacitive discharge spot welder for my shop using one of these. IIRC it can switch about 20 kiloamps. Voltage drop is not a big issue if you have 100+ of supply volts available.


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## idslayer (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey ID Slayer
> 
> White Zombie is not using the motor you stated but a pair of Advance8" motors as just an FYI (trust me on this lmao!! 8^)
> 
> ...


Thanks for setting me straight on that, Jim. I'm not sure how i wound up with that assumption but I see you've been instrumental in the success of the White Zombie. 
I've been quite intrigued and trying to absorb so much that the facts are becoming a bit intermingled and blurred. I have a lot to learn but I'm eager to become more affluent. 
EV propulsion is way past due and the White Zombie demonstrates the awesome potential, quite convincingly. I tell everyone I talk to daily, to just google it.

Cheers eh,
Dave


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## Itse_Lectruck (Apr 13, 2009)

Will-E said:


> Thanks Mike.
> FYI
> I contacted MHWC and they very quickly got back to me to let me know that they started shipping their items by freight. Thats great news. It seemed reasonable too


I talked to them a few days ago and freight to North Florida for a 200 lb motor would be $116.09.


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Itse_Lectruck said:


> I talked to them a few days ago and freight to North Florida for a 200 lb motor would be $116.09.


That's exactly what they quoted me for shipping to Maryland. Seems reasonable for that heavy of a motor.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*Re: I have a smaller Allis Chalmers motor to evaluate*



major said:


> Hi rca,
> 
> Yeah, lower stall torque and finite no load speed for compound vs series motors. And overload commutation can be worse, meaning some more sparks on full voltage starts. Mid range (like one hour rating neighborhood) torque, speed, amps will be about equal to series equivalent.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your deep level of understanding these motors with me. It sounds liuke I'd need to run some leads out of my compound motor to be able to reconfigure the series and shunt fields separate from the armature and then put it on the lab bench as it were and experiment a bit. I didn't want to have to go to this level of trouble since I am on overload already with another couple of projects here. This EV project is a back burner at the moment. I got suddenly re-intested in it as a battery acquisition opportunity just came my way and I'm trying to make decisions with money I'd have to borrow. Fortunately if not ending up in my EV I can certainly use the batteries in my off-grid homestead power system. That's the 'other' project now on the go. Big scratch built 20 kW wind turbine, battery bank and inverters plus 4 diesel co-gen plant(s).

It is looking like I should give that larger 11-1/2" series motor a first crack at my intended application.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Jeff, 

I'm getting along okay here but still can't find a damn thing after the shop move, lmao. I'll give ya a private write this weekend and chew the fat some.

Id:

No problem and I just thought I'd set the record straight about WZ 
I did want to add that those Hitachi motors are in fact very well built and should prove to be a very good EV motor.

RC:

There's always a fine line between having enough motor mass to do the job but not so much that the weight becomes an issue where you're just carying extra baggage per se. That smaller motor is of good size but being it's compound wound think I'd also go with the larger motor (specially since the pump motor will also be hard to adapt the shaft mounting to).

Make sure you advance the brush timing as discussed in this thread to increase the voltage limit and to increase the top end speed of the motor.

On that, I need to get my butt motivated and off to the shop.
Cya
Jim


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Ive been doing some search locally for a forklift motor and I came across 2! however, I dont know if they will work. I haven't met with the guy yet, since he is about 1hr 30min away, but i had him send me some pics so I can try get an idea what he has. He said that he has 2 pump motors and electronics from a Yale 4000#. I attached the pictures he sent. I was able to make out a number off the tag. Atleast I think I did. 7221090 31. I googled this and all the came up was an ebay link: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Yale-Forklift-Mo...9611&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ebayphotohosting

Im not sure if its the same motor, but they do look a little similar. I was wondering if anyone had any more information about this motor. just wondering if these are suitable for driving an ev (with advanced brushes and what not)

thanks!


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

Speaking of forklifts, I have an opportunity to buy a Hyster model 65? at a good price. It's a 2004 unit with a newer GE motor and an electronic controller (I assume a Curtis or similar). I have attached a picture of the unit for your reference. I am converting a 95 Ford Escort and this seemed to be a likely donor for the motor, controller and charger. My design criteria is to have a simple commuter vehicle with a top speed of maybe 70 kmh (45 mph) and a range of maybe 50 km (30 miles). I am new at this and need some sound advice - thanks! Ken.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

mamodbasher said:


> Speaking of forklifts, I have an opportunity to buy a Hyster model 65? at a good price. It's a 2004 unit with a newer GE motor and an electronic controller (I assume a Curtis or similar). I have attached a picture of the unit for your reference. I am converting a 95 Ford Escort and this seemed to be a likely donor for the motor, controller and charger. My design criteria is to have a simple commuter vehicle with a top speed of maybe 70 kmh (45 mph) and a range of maybe 50 km (30 miles). I am new at this and need some sound advice - thanks! Ken.


Ken, 
Wow! That forklift looks way to new and sweet to canibalize it just for it's motor and controller. Must be a steal price or you have a gun to your head. Oh, I see you are in canada where guns aren't allowed. OK so that ain't it.  I am not far from you just a hop north near Shelburne (N. or Orangeville). If you wanna dump the carcass off after you grab the drive motor I'll be happy to take it off your hands for some trade. If you could leave the hydraulic pump in it so the lift forks can still be made to work I'd be prepared to try to put the thing back into service for my own use here. Call me at 519 +#@ 925 **&^ 1771 if interested.


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

rcavictim said:


> Ken,
> Wow! That forklift looks way to new and sweet to canibalize it just for it's motor and controller. Must be a steal price or you have a gun to your head.


Not really. This particular place specializes in lease returns. The unit in the picture is a return from a GM plant (imagine that) and I made a deal to buy it less the mast. With a good 36 volt battery pack and delivery to my driveway it's $1500 Canadian (about $1200 U.S.?). I thought it didn't sound too bad - as long as it will do the trick. Ken.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

mamodbasher said:


> Not really. This particular place specializes in lease returns. The unit in the picture is a return from a GM plant (imagine that) and I made a deal to buy it less the mast. With a good 36 volt battery pack and delivery to my driveway it's $1500 Canadian (about $1200 U.S.?). I thought it didn't sound too bad - as long as it will do the trick. Ken.


Oh. OK. I hope the motor and other stuff is what you need. That battery pack is going to kill your weight budget though. Put up a solar photovoltaic on your house and use that pack at home.

Cheers,
rca


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

rcavictim said:


> Oh. OK. I hope the motor and other stuff is what you need. That battery pack is going to kill your weight budget though. Put up a solar photovoltaic on your house and use that pack at home.
> 
> Cheers,
> rca


That's exactly what I have! You must be a mind reader. I have an array of panels that I use to light the homestead and the 36 volt pack will be a great addition to the cause. I would be happy to offer up any remaiders that you might be able to use at a reasonable cost if you are interested. Email me at mamodbasher(at)gmail(dot)com

Ken


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Sutitan

The two posted are first a 7.5" short comm yale and the second is a 6.7" Crown. Neither are suited for an EV (a two thumbs up Gocart, maybe a lighter motorcycle) as they are smaller 4 brushed motors.

The other one you linked to is also a bad choice. The teminals and brush ring design will make it a hard motor to advance the brushes on (trust me as I'm working with a guy who bought one simular). The drive plate is also poorly suited to be modded for an adaptor plate to mount to. Sorry to have to shoot you down on these but better me than your wife right?? 
Anyway, be patient and wait for a better core. 


Some basic thought and guidlines:


In general, and being this thread has grown to some length, you all are looking for motors that are at least 90 pounds in weight (to about 150 lbs)(more than that IMO you're just carying around extra weight), and they should be 8 brushed (to chug better current) and have a shaft and drive plate as suitable to use as can be. 

Look for insulation that a nice yellow or golden brown color like your momma cookies and not dark and black like I always end up baking them  Bring an Ohm meter if possible and check the terminals for shorts to the frame (touch both "A" and "F" teminals to the housing steel or shaft). 
Minor shorts can be cleaned out dead shorts usually mean a winding has shorted and grounded to the arm or housing steel (not good). 

Also test to see what resistance you get bewteen the two (possbly four) field terminals. If it shows solid short it's a series motor but if you show anything on a 10K meter than it's probably a sepex. Confirm this by looking whether the field wire is flat and beefy or about the size of a pencil lead (which would be sepex).

As the self appointed motor sheriff around here  I like to see you guys error on the side of overkill then to hear you whine you burnt your stupid motor up  lmao! but that said and if done right smaller motors can and will work very well. Damon Henry's Datsun mini truck is using a very small 70 lb 6.7" Advance motor (He's on the EV album search via Washington state) but it's also blower cooled and he's got no hills to contend with, and doesn't hotrod it much but does have a logi 1000 A controller juicing it!

In as much as I know you all don't have 30 years building these motors like I do, it really is as simple as following these basic guidlines and being patient and deligent as you search for your diamond in the rough so that once you get to cutting and polishing it, you will in fact end up with a true gem  Buying simply because it's available or cheap is a heartache waiting to happen.

Didn't think I'd be so long winded this evening but thought I'd throw out some basic rule of thumb thoughts.

Happy hunting.

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Jim!

If I didnt get any reply from the thread, I was going to email you next 
Ive been lurking around these forums for quite a bit. I think ive read this whole thread twice to try pick up on as much as possible. Ive also ran through your build photos on your website quite a bit too.

Im not to upset about the motors. I was hoping that they might be dual 6.7's. I really couldn't tell much from those pictures. Im actually absolutely amazed how well you know your motors. I tried running that number over the internet and couldent find anything. here you come in an identify these things no problem.

I guess ill have to keep my eyes open. Im not in any rush at the moment. I really dont plan to start my build for another year or so, but if I see an opprotunity to pick up a cheap suitable motor for my future build, ill jump on it.

Again, thanks alot for the quick response


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Thanks for the excellent summary Jim!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey All

First off I’d like to thank everyone for their kind words and greetings as I think everyone likes to feel needed and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Being I have a little time on my hands and feeling like chicken pecking at my keyboard, I thought I’d sit down and chat for a spell and hope the “here for the tech only” guys don’t mind to much.  That said, I thought I’d put some thoughts out there that edged more toward the human aspect of what it’s like to be a member of the EV community.

As most have heard I went through a pretty hard period with some bad headaches, which have been gone a while now (thank God) but I was honestly (and if I can bare my soft underbelly 8^) was still “bruised” (for lack of a better term) mentally and spiritually. Contrary to how I feel some of you think of me I am but a mortal and suffer through life’s peaks and valleys as I’m sure all here do. Being a passionate man my peaks and valley’s are probably higher and lower than normal where after the medical (and econimical) meltdown I've been somewhere below sea level .

Last year when gas got to 4.50 a gallon it got to the point that I honestly didn’t want to answer my phone as there seemed to be 30 million people of you guys out there and it got to the point where I could no longer bare the burden (both in time and money) and I basically got a bad case of the burnouts. I am someone who has other passions, other interests, and a family I neglect far too much and I found myself wondering if it was all worth it? In huge ways I’m just like most here in that I struggle to make ends meet (I assume this being if you all had money you’d be off buying a new Warp motor and wouldn’t need my dumb ass now would ya 8^) and I’ve found myself wondering if I should just fade out of sight and go off and be a pig farmer or what not. I’ve read many an e-mail from those frustrated with their projects to know I’m not the first to feel this. Anyway, I’ve been stuck in this melancholy funk for a spell and have found myself doing a lot of soul searching over the last 6 to 8 months as to certain aspects of my life. 

I came home two days ago to find my sister Cheryl who lives in Alaska had sent me a book to read called “Trustee from the toolroom”. Inside she had put a small note that she saw areas that she felt the main character and I shared similar aspects and how proud she was of me. The short of it is the guy is a respected member of a hobby community who has no idea how much he’s appreciated by fellow hobbyist (not intirerly the plot but the refference my sister saw). Having finished the book, it did in fact charged my batteries a lot, maybe better stated that it corrected my life compass. It drove home that I have cause and effect on people’s lives, that what I offer is probably held in higher regard by others more so than let’s say what I’d rate it myself. We all have our gifts and I’ve seen things, you guys do that just blows my mind. The fact that you all are out there doing what major auto manufactures say can’t be done is a testament to how all of you are having cause and effect on the world in which we live.

We all have our reasons for being EV’ers and I guess I can best say I’ve re-discovered my reasons. As someone who wears my feeling out on my sleeve for all to see (and probably someone who’s a little to much in touch with my female side, LMAO. I hope this, if nothing else, offers a little comfort for those who in the midst of their trials and tribulations finds some small comfort that IMO feel we all go through at some point. Anyway, here’s to all those out there who are, through their blood, sweat, and tears manifesting their dream into reality, who in this case are the true hero’s of the story we’re writing right now! Thanks for lending an ear, I’ll return this station to it’s normally broadcasted show now 

Cya all
Jim


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sometimes a little perspective goes a long way if the strength of character is there. If you survive, it can only make you stronger.

As I said, Welcome back Jim


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Mamodbasher
I bought an old forklift here in NZ, the motors were not suitable BUT the forks and mast were saleable
Lots of the farmers here put them on the back of their tractors - handy!
So they can probably be sold
The carcass when you have taken everything off is probably worth $400+ just in scrap steel
You may be able to get your motors and batteries for free!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hey Jim
It's good to see you alive and kicking again. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's missed your contributions here. I've been hanging around the EV community making a nuisance of myself for a couple of years now and mostly found folks to be very welcoming and generous with their knowledge. There are a handful of people though who stand out for giving way beyond their share, and whose words you can rely on to carry real gems of information as well as being good fun to read. You're one of those people and Lee Hart is another.
I try to do my bit in return where I can, and I know myself the response doesn't always seem worthwhile for the amount of time and effort that goes into putting words online, but trust me you've got a goldmine of goodwill out here (it's just a shame you can't cash some of it in at the bank)

Cheers
Malcolm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jim,
I've taken what I've learned from you and tried to pass it on to others, so directly and indirectly I'm sure you've helped more people than you can imagine.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I totally agree,

I am going to be showing off my little fork-motor Metro at energy fairs and eco-events all summer!

The more people we have learning and teaching, the better.

Here's one place I am trying to teach:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Build_your_own_Electric_Car/

Here you can see my yellow forklift motor from a low angle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nIIPsVfUm8


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## DrLightWind (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey All
> 
> First off I’d like to thank everyone for their kind words and greetings as I think everyone likes to feel needed and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
> Cya all
> Jim


I sent you a PM about a stronger motor for my Xebra PK.

Bela


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, here is try #2.
Specs: 36V, key shaft, about 150lbs. Price: $270.00. These are all the pictures I have as the motor is several states away.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey King

Couple of things I can throw out for you. The size and cost are within reason but there are a few things I'd like to caution you with. The springs are showing a fair amount of rust or corossion and they appear to be fairly thin. I'm not familure with this particular motor but have built motors with that style of housing mounted terminal bracket thingy. That said I have no idea how readly available parts will be for this motor so if nothing else clean and coat those spring to sprevent further decay. those terminal blocks are very cheesy as well and will snap off from the insulators that are behind the mounting bracket (ask me how I know 

Hard to say how easy this will be to advance the brushes on as to whether the cables will travel far enough. You could easily replace the brush lead cables with a longer cable if needed. The brushes are on the small side on a bummer note and in as much as I recognize certain features of this motor I can not place the maker but would caution you that it's not of the highest caliber of quality. The shaft sounds easy enough to use and adapt from but is probably it's strongest attribute.

If it was me who was looking to buy this I'd say I'd probably pass on this one or try and cut a deal on a lower price. My biggest fear would be toward the brush size and probably a lower quality comm (AKA thin bars)(to keep production costs down). That said, not a terrible motor option but I think you could find a better core to work up.
Hope this helps
Jim


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

Thanks for saving me from buying that motor Jim! I'll keep looking until I find a good one.

-Jim


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## lazzer408 (May 18, 2008)

Looked like a great motor to me. Jim I thought you said small com bars were good for higher voltages? There's nothing wrong with those brush springs either. Just some surface oxidation. Might not last 5-10 years but remember, Jims standards are higher then many of ours. 
I sort of like that fact that it would be easy to run power cables right to the brush poles. There's no problem advancing that motor. 

Kingjamez if your not buying it point me to the seller.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Laz, King, all

You know, all I can do is call things best I see them. No hard sell from me do as you wish.
Jim


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Mamodbasher
> I bought an old forklift here in NZ, the motors were not suitable BUT the forks and mast were saleable
> Lots of the farmers here put them on the back of their tractors - handy!
> So they can probably be sold
> ...


Hi - thanks for the input. I did go and look at this critter today and for better or worse, bought the bits that mattered. Instead of being saddled with the carcass (the sum total being around 20,000 pounds), I managed to talk the fellow into stripping the parts out for me and he keep the rest. I ended up with the motor, controllers (there are 2?) the potbox, the dash (has a really neat battery gauge in it), all of the contactors, fuses and cables, power steering motor and pump, and possibly even a service manual. The motor is a GE about 11" in diameter and the controllers are GE as well. I could only just barely see the motor from the top, but it's very clean, and runs very smooth and quiet. I am going back to pick up the bits next weekend, so will get some specs off the motor plate then - hopefully it's a good unit.

Has anyone thought of using solar charge controllers for the battery charger and the DC to DC converter? My thought was that an Outback MX-60 would make a great 48 volt charger unit. You could use a rectified AC input to the controller (around 120 volts DC) and the MPPT funtion would charge the pack as needed - no different from solar. Also, I thought about using a Xantrex C-40 controller for the DC to DC converter - it would take the 48 VDC from the pack and convert it to operate the 12 volt charge function for the accessory battery. Any thoughts on these applications? Just trying to get the best bang for the buck! Ken.


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## kingjamez (Mar 15, 2009)

lazzer408 said:


> Kingjamez if your not buying it point me to the seller.


I'm not in a hurry. I'm still designing my chassis so I'll keep looking for a steal. So PM sent with the contact info.

-another Jim


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## GrahamMc (May 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe. You need a lot more information about the motor before making that determination. You'd probably have to remove the motor to get a really good look at it and the shaft. For the price of that lift you could probably get a nice rebuilt 7.5 or 8 inch motor from Jim that you know will work.


So I am new to this thread and only on page 35 or so, but I am wondering if this is true and where I might find more information?


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## JimDanielson (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm planning a CRX conversion with a forklift motor. It is the only thing that will fit in my budget. I really need the car to hit at least 60mph. Originally I wanted to do a 72 v alltrax, but I dont think that will reach 60mph.

Now Im considering the kelly 120v or the logisystems 144v both right at $800.

My main question is, how many volts can a 48 volt forklift handle? If it is rated at 48v, and we can give it 72v or 144v, why wasnt it rated higher?

What will happen if I give it 144v and I rotate the brushes 10-12 degrees? Could it overheat? start on fire? Shatter/blow up?

I really want to do this conversion, but I don't have tons of money to use and I don't want it to be a pointless 40mph vehicle.

Thanks


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

jimbo12d said:


> I'm planning a CRX conversion with a forklift motor. It is the only thing that will fit in my budget. I really need the car to hit at least 60mph. Originally I wanted to do a 72 v alltrax, but I dont think that will reach 60mph.
> 
> Now Im considering the kelly 120v or the logisystems 144v both right at $800.
> 
> ...


 
Jimbo,

You have asked all the good questions. I will be very interested in hearing the thoughs of the experts. I too have a desire to build a conversion similar to your plan and a forklift motor is the only path. I will most likely go a step further with a DIY controller to try to save even more $$$.

In my case I am willing to include a small diesel generator to improve the capability of the on-board battery bank and increase range by making a DIY plug-in hybrid.


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## charlie (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all
> 
> .... If you went to 72V on that motor I'd advance it a bit. It's hard to put a real scale on the motor for actual size. I can see from the one pic that the coils and arm windings look good color wise. I can't see how big the brushes are, nor the comm, so it's abilities are somewhat hard to determine from the pics so far. Anyway, see if you can throw a picture of the brush comm area up.
> 
> ...


Jim,

I'm posting the pictures this late after your reply because I've been travelling a lot and the motor is now 2200km away from me so I had to ask a friend to take them for me. I've started a thread for my planned conversion in order to let this thread concentrate on it's topic only.

Back to the motor, how do you decide how many degrees to advance it?

Here are the comm area pictures:

Picture 1
http://www.aircooled.ro/fol474739/m...rush1..jpg/?display=Original&view:method=ViewPicture 2

The Kostov motor album


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hi guys, I was hoping to get some feedback on this motor. From the pics and info available, how much potential does it have, and what are its limitations? I am building an EV street rod - basically just a motor and wheels with a body shell. I am more than happy to answer any additional questions you need answered. I wasn't sure what you need to know, and I didn't want to babble on unnecessarily about my dreams.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360151969630


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks gottdi. The case is 11.5" diameter x 16.5" long. Overall length 20.5".

No problem on getting in hooked up design and fabrication are my specialty.



gottdi said:


> ...(enough for a 1/4 mile run)


You been peeking in my notes?


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Hi guys, I was hoping to get some feedback on this motor. From the pics and info available, how much potential does it have, and what are its limitations? I am building an EV street rod - basically just a motor and wheels with a body shell. I am more than happy to answer any additional questions you need answered. I wasn't sure what you need to know, and I didn't want to babble on unnecessarily about my dreams.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360151969630


If you have previous experience with street rods you should not worry about the electrical ratings and just plan to get this motor chromed. Street rodders all know that this alone is good for somewhere between 20 and 40 horsepower! Add a chrome dipstick and look out quarter mile ET's.  

All sarcazm aside from a previous street rodder, that looks like a fabulous motor for an EV conversion based on the nameplate and assuming the brush gear/commutator looks just as good as the outside. At 11.5" diameter, some 16" long less shaft and 250 pounds it is a huge beast. This could well power a quarter mile weekend warrior. Watch the armature RPM's though. Good luck bidding.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Chrome AND billet, my man! I want to cover all the bases, and get extra horsepower and torque to boot! But a chrome dipstick! I hadn't thought of that - that should be a little more "mile-an-hour"! 

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I can't wait to strap this beast down and feel the grunt!


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

lazzer408 said:


> The way I understand it... If you double the voltage you increase the motors output by 4. Being series wound the rpm is dependant on the load. Being that there's 4x more power available I can easily see the rpm significantly increased for the same load. Might be more then twice the rpm.
> 
> To put it simple. Say the motor is 1ohm. If 100v into 1ohm is 100a then 100*100=10,000w. If 200v into 1ohm is 200 amps then 200*200=40,000w.
> 
> ...


I did a first test run with a forklift pumpmotor mounted on a quad bike (24v,3.3kw,comp motor,2 terminals).
Using a 12v battery it moved with me on it but nothing exciting happened, when i doubled the voltage to 24v (voltage the motor had in the forklift) it made a huge difference, it accelerated very good, pretty close to the acceleration it had with the ice (200cc 4 stroke engine, 11kw). In my opinion (but i'm no specialist) i think you are right lazzer408, doubling the voltage could very well increase the motor's output by 4 because the difference i experienced was huge.
Can't wait to feed it 48V


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

Gene said:


> I did a first test run with a forklift pumpmotor mounted on a quad bike (24v,3.3kw,comp motor,2 terminals).


Quad made a legendary vacuum tube audio tube amp as well as electrostatic speakers. I don't think they made a bike. What then do you mean by a "quad bike" please?

BTW, it is absolutely true. Doubling the DC voltage across a given load resistance quadruples the power dissipated in the load resistance. Simple ohm's law. In the case of the electric motor without a controller the actual output shaft power probably will not scale linearly due to increasing brush losses, a dynamic growth of I^2R losses due to increasing copper temperatures and other factors such as increased windage losses, etc., but the output will definitely be seen to be way more than 2X.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Hi guys, I was hoping to get some feedback on this motor. From the pics and info available, how much potential does it have, and what are its limitations? I am building an EV street rod - basically just a motor and wheels with a body shell. I am more than happy to answer any additional questions you need answered. I wasn't sure what you need to know, and I didn't want to babble on unnecessarily about my dreams.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360151969630


 
I see that auction ended and there were lots of bids. Did you get your lovely forklift motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rcavictim said:


> Quad made a legendary vacuum tube audio tube amp as well as electrostatic speakers. I don't think they made a bike. What then do you mean by a "quad bike" please?


A "quad" refers to a four wheel ATV, All Terrain Vehicle.


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## Gene (Apr 8, 2009)

Here's a picture of the test, quad bike is indeed a four wheeler atv, quad for short.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

Gene said:


> Here's a picture of the test, quad bike is indeed a four wheeler atv, quad for short.


I'd far sooner own a pair of Quad tube amps and electrostatic speakers. That way worst case, the number of area landowners that I could annoy with the thing would be limited to my immediate neighbor, and the likelyhood of that happening would be next to zero.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rcavictim said:


> I'd far sooner own a pair of Quad tube amps and electrostatic speakers.


Not too good for off road transportation however


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Not too good for off road transportation however


Perhaps not BUT...I would happily argue that most people who own these off-road menaces would in fact have their ACTUAL off-road transportation needs met with a stereo tube amp and a pair of speakers. Ditto for most snowmobilers.


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Did someone from this thread get the big GE motor that toddshotrods showed pics of. I am making a 25 spline X 1 5/8" coupler for a very similar motor right now. Am adapting it to a chevy 3 speed tranny to go into a 78 CJ5 jeep. Haven't advanced timing yet but will before I put it in. Have a logisystem 144 volt 750 amp controller that I just purchased from the classifieds on this site today. Have a glass body and fenders to get rid of weight so I could load it with batteries. Hope to get it all together in the next few weeks. And yes I am a streetrodder and I do have a billet bumper that I spotted as a diamond in the rough in my scrap yard. Just decided today to part out 3 more fork lifts with good motors. Will give those on this board first shot at them once I have them pulled and pics. Also have a lot of 1/0 and 2/0 wire usually with one lug on one end.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Todd got it, or one just like it from the same seller.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*These are different motors!*



toddshotrods said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360151969630


Anyone else notice that the motor in the top picture as seen by the splined shaft is not the same one as in the second picture as seen by the different splined shaft? The first looks larger OD and more spines = better. It looks like splines I have seen on the inside end of a Chevy car rear axle in the past. The ebay vendor appears to have more than just one in these large motor sizes. It also appears that he knows how to do spray can rebuilds. I do not mean that in a negative way, nice to get a cleaned and painted motor over a greasy rusty one. He must operate in the vicinity of a place where used forklifts fall apart.


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: These are different motors!*



rcavictim said:


> Anyone else notice that the motor in the top picture as seen by the splined shaft is not the same one as in the second picture as seen by the different splined shaft? The first looks larger OD and more spines = better.


After looking at the pictures it just seems that it's double shafted. Different splined shafts for the "front" and "back" of the motor.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

*Re: These are different motors!*



Nomad said:


> After looking at the pictures it just seems that it's double shafted. Different splined shafts for the "front" and "back" of the motor.


Oh yes, I see now. Good observation! I guess that enables it turn both CW and CCW at the same time too!


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

*Re: These are different motors!*



rcavictim said:


> Oh yes, I see now. Good observation! I guess that enables it turn both CW and CCW at the same time too!


Yar. I think the current idea is to power accessories off the "back" side like a crank pulley would


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Top picture is the Drive End, DE, bottom the Commutator End, CE. You don't want to use the CE as a main drive since it's smaller, so if you want to run the opposite direction you need to reverse the wiring and change the brush advance.


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

The back of the motor very probably originally had an emergency brake on it. Most that I have removed did.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi All

Just purchased a DC motor for my conversion ... Interested in any feedback you might have ... it is from a clark forklift.

11.4" case diameter ... 15.5" long ... 220lbs. 
(it isn't as long as I hoped but the weight is about right)

I have to look at advancing the timing by about 13 degrees to run 156V.

Questions are ... 

Is it possible to work out maximum safe amps from things like brush size or brush wire cross section area ?

Would it be adequate for pushing a 3800lbs vehicle ?
(pictures attached)

thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

300zxev said:


> Is it possible to work out maximum safe amps from things like brush size or brush wire cross section area ?
> 
> Would it be adequate for pushing a 3800lbs vehicle ?


Hi 300,

Nice motor. Looks in good shape. I suspect it'd handle all available controllers can throw at it, WRT amps. If you're well ventilated, maybe in the range of 200 to 250 amps for a one hour rating. 500 plus, even 1000 for seconds on accels shouldn't hurt this beast, unless you get commutation arcing. 3800 lb? Sure, with the proper ratio. 

My opinions,

major


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## bbf3 (Apr 30, 2009)

300zxev said:


> Hi All
> 
> Just purchased a DC motor for my conversion ... Interested in any feedback you might have ... it is from a clark forklift.
> 
> ...


think i just bought the same motor last weekend for my fiero, whats your clark model number? 2346377 or 2345378 or what?

i'd be nice to know of some other people with the same motor in case there are questions/problems during conversion....

blake


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

If it is any of my business, how much are one of these big motors worth, approximately?


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## JimDanielson (Oct 19, 2008)

There is a local guy who sells used forklift motors of this size for about $200-300. He also lists them on eBay.


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## bbf3 (Apr 30, 2009)

here;s the plate, its in another thread too, i think its shunt wound. got it for a hundred bucks from a guy stripping down a forklift in his garage... mine's the 2346377 model i believe out of a clark ec500-40f type E forklift, don't know the year.

will have to get back to you on brush info. the motor's at my shop.


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

Check forklift repair shops. Tell them that you're looking for one. Some shops sell them quickly for the copper. That's where I found my 1969 5bt1362a92 for 100.00. I've been told that these will be hard to find in the near future since electric forklifts are now using more AC motors. As far as power, I can tell you from experience that I once drove my Mazda B2200 (minus the bed) up a steep hill with the brake on by accident and my ammeter indicated a 300 amp draw at 48 volts.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi Gottdi

there is no nameplate that I can find on the unit ... it was quoted as a Clark part # 2774337 ...

The brushes are about 2.4 inches ... Is measuring the commutator something I can do with the case on ? Does it matter how many bars it has? Might be a bit hard to count though.

There seems to be a good ammount of meat still on the brushes


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Here is a better photo of the brush ... it has 4 of them

65 comm bars ... ... this determines potential volts to some degree doesn't it ? ... how many comm bars is good ?


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

Speaking of motors, I finally have mine home. I left the big GE at the forklift shop for two reasons - it was absolutely HUGE - like 14" diameter and 22" long - maybe 300 pounds, and it was shunt-wound. I took only the pump motor. It's 9" diameter and maybe 17" long. It's a "Thrige" 36/48 volt unit labled as 8.5 kw at 36 volts and 12.5 kw at 48 volts. The brushes are advanced about 10 degrees and it spins up nicely on 12 vdc. I think this one will do the trick. The controller (there are 2) for the big motor is 48 volts at 600 amps - you can see the two screw terminals for the field winding, and the smaller one is 48 volts at 400 amps - it was for the pump motor, but I am unsure whether it has speed control. The diagram that I received for the GE EV-100ZX controller is almost unreadable. I have been trying to get a decent diagram for this unit but so far it seems elusive. It has a lot of pins on the big connector and they need to have connections to + to simulate things like the keyswitch on, the seat switch on, the brake off, etc. Without a clear schematic I can't figure it out. If anyone has a diagram, please help me out!

Guts are out of the 95 Escort now and waiting to take on the motor. Stay tuned . Ken.


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

To spline or not to spline???? 
I have two GE 9" motors, freshly rebuilt by a major manufacturer's internal motor shop. They are identical and just what I need for my Ghia, except that the shaft is splined. I have pics here: http://cwarner.sunnking.com/hystermotor I don't see much option for ready made spline parts to fab my own coupling, except for this site: http://catalogs.hubcityinc.com/farmrev/nonPTOproducts.html#2 would I be better off having a machine shop turn the shaft to use taperlock couplings or should I try to find a matching female spline to fab my own? I have some time while I restore the Ghia, but I would like to get the ball rolling so that it is ready when I am. The pic 100_1085 shows the splines in all of their glory. The shaft is beefy... I need to get an accurate measurement and spline count. 

I have been "collecting" these rebuilt motors as the company scraps them. I have the two GE 9" and now have 4 other 7-8" Clarks. I also have a monster 11" GE. (see post 288 in this thread) I also have a growing collection of permanent magnet motors from floor polishers. I will be making these available soon at a fair price. (PM with interest) I used one of the PM motors for my ford lgt conversion and it works great.... direct coupled to the hydrostatic shaft, no controller....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I see a potential problem if you have a spline on the motor shaft and a spline on the transmission shaft, how do you lock the coupler so that it doesn't slide back and forth constantly? I supposed you could use a spacer in the middle of the coupling to take up the space between the two shafts but it would have to be exact so there is no play. Otherwise you might get excessive wear on the splines.


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

Good point! Yet another of the million things I haven't thought about! I am not a machinist and precision is not my forte. I am a blacksmith so if it doesn't fit I hammer it. Perhaps I should keep doing what I do and farm out this task. I know I could weld a symmetrical coupler with the right parts, but as you pointed out, perhaps spline to spline is not the right choice at all. I will shop around for someone to turn the shaft for a taper-lock, unless some of you bright minds have a better idea.


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360151969630



Is this a good motor for VW van conversion. From what I have read here you can't seem to go wrong with a heavy 11" GE motor. And if others will be using this motor I can just tag along. What kind of controller do I need to look for?

Thannks for any help.


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## rcavictim (Apr 26, 2009)

Ironize,

Couldn't find a 'mail' button...

Tell me more about your pm floor polisher motors and what is a Ford lgt? Would one of these motors be good for say a highway capable motorcycle project?

Thanx rcavictim


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I see a potential problem if you have a spline on the motor shaft and a spline on the transmission shaft, how do you lock the coupler so that it doesn't slide back and forth constantly? I supposed you could use a spacer in the middle of the coupling to take up the space between the two shafts but it would have to be exact so there is no play. Otherwise you might get excessive wear on the splines.


I am in the process of having a double spline coupler made to couple a GE 25 spline 1 5/8" shaft to a chevy 3 speed 10 splined shaft. They will cut it lengthwise after it is made and put bolts on each side to "clamp" it to the shafts. I'm sure you have seen those split couplers like I am talking about.
We will actually cut the 25 splined end and the chevy coupler end will actually be a clutch coupling that will fit inside the coupling we are making and be welded in. If your shaft is 1 5/8" I may be able to save you the engineering and computer set up fee to have one made. The shop I am using makes a lot of aftermarket parts for the auto industry, especially corvettes.............Bill


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,
I do not see the problem with having the adaptor free to move (a little) most splines drives that actually drive through the spline allow some end float
The input shaft to a gearbox is an obvious example

Some spline drives are clamped solid and actually drive through friction
like front wheel drive cars where the main nut is done up TIGHT!

Clamping the spline by splitting the coupler could lead to running the two shafts eccentrically - 
definitely not a good idea

I am planning on making an adapter that will float on the splines on my motor and the splines on my ford gearbox

If this is a bad idea please tell me Why?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi,
> I do not see the problem with having the adaptor free to move (a little) most splines drives that actually drive through the spline allow some end float
> The input shaft to a gearbox is an obvious example


As far as I know the input shaft to a gearbox always has the motor side of the coupler locked into place except when the clutch is depressed. So occasionally when clutching the splines will slide, but most of the time when under load the clutch hub is not sliding or vibrating along the transmission input splines. It seems to me that if the couplers are allowed to constantly slide along the shaft you'll end up with premature wear.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi JRP3,
The female spline is clamped to the IC flywheel/crankshaft, the male spline is the input to the gearbox.
In my experience both of these have some (small) amount of endfloat so the splines can move against each other
I assume if they can they do!
The output shaft from the gearbox drives a female spline on the driveshaft, again with a small amount of endfloat

These do not seem to have problems with wear so long as they have some lubrication

Locking the motor shaft and the gearbox shaft together will cause high loads in the bearings
Even with perfect centring and alignment there will be issues as the various components heat up asymmetrically 

I believe that some movement is necessary between the shafts

Having a piece that can move on both splines may be an issue
possibly I should lock it on one spline


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

mamodbasher said:


> The diagram that I received for the GE EV-100ZX controller is almost unreadable. I have been trying to get a decent diagram for this unit but so far it seems elusive. It has a lot of pins on the big connector and they need to have connections to + to simulate things like the keyswitch on, the seat switch on, the brake off, etc. Without a clear schematic I can't figure it out. If anyone has a diagram, please help me out!


Hopefully you've got your diagrams: 
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1136&PID=13251#13251


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Locking the motor shaft and the gearbox shaft together will cause high loads in the bearings
> Even with perfect centring and alignment there will be issues as the various components heat up asymmetrically


 Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that both sides of the coupler should be locked to the shafts, just that the motor side coupler should be locked to the motor shaft, then the trans side of the coupler slides onto the trans shaft when you mount it. That's how it is usually done. In most cases there would be no way to lock the trans side anyway as it's inaccessible once you put the motor and trans together.


> Having a piece that can move on both splines may be an issue
> possibly I should lock it on one spline


That is my concern.


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Fellow enthusiasts,

I had a problem with my Fiero a few nights back. I was winding up a 24 mile ride when suddenly my motor was no longer motivating the car. The car coasted to a stop. The motor would run, but there was a faint scraping noise. It didn't matter what position the gearshift was in, the car wouldn't go. I was concerned my clutchless system may have destroyed something inside my transmission. After pulling the cradle out of the car I tested it using a 12 volt battery and everything seemed fine. I posted my problem on Yahoo's Fiero site and got this interesting comment:


<snip> "I do believe you may be putting extra stress on the tranny-syncros though. Normally when you shift gears the syncros have to speedup or slow down the mass of only a clutch disk to match the speed of the gears you are about to mesh. Now the syncros have to speedup or slow down the mass of the motor's armature, probably a lot more mass than a clutch disk. That still might not be your current problem, but the syncros will fail if my guess is right. Motor armatures are often coupled to their shaft with a crimp or press fit. I wonder if the jerking faster and slower by the synco thing I mentioned loosened this connection. Even though it appears to work correctly on the floor, It may need the weight and drag of the car to make the shaft and armature to slip. Find a way to put some drag or load at the wheels like engaging the brakes some to try and recreate the slipage." <snip>

Now, I know tranny synchros aren't in the realm of this thread, but has anyone ever gotten a commutator to slip on the shaft? My motor is a 12" GE 48 volt taken from a 16,000# gross weight forklift. It can make the car scoot (when everything's working right) but I drive it gently to save power and get range.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

sheltydog said:


> Now, I know tranny synchros aren't in the realm of this thread, but has anyone ever gotten a commutator to slip on the shaft? My motor is a 12" GE 48 volt taken from a 16,000# gross weight forklift. It can make the car scoot (when everything's working right) but I drive it gently to save power and get range.


I don't think the synchros are stressed that much more and I doubt you've slipped a shaft on that motor, I don't see how there would be enough resistance to "hold" the comm while the shaft spins.


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## sheltydog (Jun 13, 2008)

Howdy:

<After pulling the cradle out of the car I tested it using a 12 volt battery and everything seemed fine.>

After exploring a slipping commutator, I finally found the real problem. I feel like a dummy.

The slip was in my adapter. The clutch-to-transmission spline was torn up. I had to remove it and examine under a light to see the problem. When I stuck my finger in, it felt OK, but when you look at it, the problem becomes obvious.

For those who thought about my problem, I appreciate your time. The car should be back on the road soon. MIKE


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Crawled in one of the lifts today that I am getting ready to part out within a couple weeks and it has a 12"X17" GE drive motor and a 7.5"X14" pump motor. I think I have two of those that should be just alike. Will try to get them out soon and get pics posted. Will also bench test them to be sure everything is ok. These will be listed on this board for sale......Bill


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi,
> I do not see the problem with having the adaptor free to move (a little) most splines drives that actually drive through the spline allow some end float
> The input shaft to a gearbox is an obvious example
> 
> ...


Duncan.....I will let the entire splined coupling "float" without clamping it to either shaft. I turned a bump ring out of Delfin/nylon on the motor end for the shaft to butt up against and a Delfin/nylon collar that bumps against the support collar on the transmission input shaft and the coupler on that end. This way it is not locked to either shaft but can't really slide back and forth either......Bill


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I still wonder if there might be "chatter" and excessive wear going on by not having the coupler locked to one shaft. I guess you'll find out.


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I still wonder if there might be "chatter" and excessive wear going on by not having the coupler locked to one shaft. I guess you'll find out.


I will find out and if I have to I can still lock it to the motor shaft if I have to. Either way I will keep this board informed..........Bill


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

Here's one for you guys!
I got a CHEAP forklift pump motor. 7 Inch by 14 inch long. Perm Magnet. 92lbs. Built in temp and RPM sensors. How much should i expect from this motor? What kind of Amperage should i be prepared to feed this thing? Any guesses on Maximum Voltage? It's fan cooled(internal). its in PERFECT condition from what i can tell. Brushes arn't even fully seated yet. May have never seen action.

8620081 Hyster 36/48V Motor 
Type: 75AA

 
Spun it up with a dead 12volt battery. Ran smooth and quite, decently fast for < 8 volts too.


Thanks in Advance guys!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Alex

Going from memory here but that's one of what I'd call a Yale/Hyster motor which I'm guessing is made by eaton (honestly not sure). This should have a long pair of flanges that sticks out the pump end plate? 

I'd need pics to confirm, but if it's the motor I'm thinking of, is not a bad choice for a smaller convesion (although I'd consider blower cooling it, as it's one the smaller end of what you need in motor mass. In general the armature and coils are fairly course wound so after advancing the brush timing 10 degrees, I'd limit the voltage at 120ish. If planning higher I'd advance the brushes by 12 degrees.

The weak link in this motor will be the thin base on the brush ring were the spring tension tends to bend the holders away from the commutator (specially if heat's present). Being they're rivited to the base it's the outer ends that push out and you'll get a slanted brush wear. The design of the motor is "prone" to quicker brush replacement. That said, keep an eye on them as time goes by. Have a look at the insulation board (base) of the brush holders and see if it's an 1/8" thick (it may not EVen be afull 1/8th . 

I believe this should have a pair of leads from the fields that attach to the brush holders? There might be enough swing in them to still connect after rotating the commutator plate (10 to 12 degrees) OPPOSITE the motors direction (and drill new mount holes). Anyway, have a look at the leads to see if they'll bend over, or will you need to extend them.

On another note in the just checking, this motor runs in only one direction so make sure it's the rotation you need.

As for amperage, it'll be a bit higher due to the curser windings and why I suggest adding some forced air blowing. This is probably one of the better windier fans on lift motors but it doesn't do a thing when not running where a blower could be cooling you down at red lights and such.

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Alex

I forgot to say this is not a per-mag but a series motor, there should be 4 pairs of bolts on the housing (the main barrel of the motor) which are the pole shoe bolts 

Then again I may be proven to be talking out my ... once you go have a look 
Jim


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

Your good!
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=117327&id=665000126&l=0a028722c1
That is the motor. Your a wealth of knowledge, gotta say that!

Motor seems pretty robust, and for 96$ delivered, not going to complain if its on the low end! The car will be very light as i plan on stripping everything not needed, and i also plan on shifting the 5speed in the car to keep the motor at light load most of the time. Plastic body panels help too! God i love my Saturn, but the ICE threw a rod, but hey. Who needs it?


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Alex
> 
> I forgot to say this is not a per-mag but a series motor, there should be 4 pairs of bolts on the housing (the main barrel of the motor) which are the pole shoe bolts
> 
> ...


Jim is correct - that's a series-wound motor almost identical to mine. The one that I have is an inch larger in diameter and out of a Hyster lift and was the pump motor. The odd thing is the weight of yours - 92 pounds. Mine is larger and likely only weighs between 70 and 80? Unless I am a lot stronger than I think! Anyway, mine was made by "Thrige" and it has a cooling fan on the armature right behind the front cover and also has the brush-wear and temperature connections. One thing you should check is the brush advance. This Thrige already has a 10 degree advance on it - maybe yours might be the same? Mine also has specific data on the plate - 8.5 kw at 36 volts and 12.5 kw at 48 volts. I have attached a few pics for comparison and one after the "ears" were removed . You got a bargain at that price methinks!  Ken.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder why a 48 volt motor would be advanced 10 degrees, unless someone already modified it?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

alexcrouse said:


> Your good!
> http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=117327&id=665000126&l=0a028722c1
> 
> Ahhh, you caught me on a good day
> ...


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

hey all

There are a number of pump motors that are pre-advanced for their rotation, but usually set at 4.5 degrees.
Jim


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder why a 48 volt motor would be advanced 10 degrees, unless someone already modified it?


Hi Jim - not sure - unless I am mistaken... Maybe you could walk us through the "advance" procedure (in layman's terms?) one more time - how to do it and how to recognize if it's already been done? The brushes on this motor are "offset" from the centre of the armature by what looks to be (if my math is correct) almost exactly 10 degrees - almost 3/4" from centre? Let me know if this is not the case - not a problem for me right now, as I only plan on 48 volts just now anyway.  Ken.


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## AndyB (Jun 17, 2009)

Thoughts on either of these motors? I'm wanting to convert an older S-10. Range about 50-60 miles. 

Been trying to read this thread as many pages as my brain can handle. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-850466...66:2|39:1|72:1240|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-277433...66:2|39:1|72:1240|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The first one looks just like the one toddshotrods picked up that turned out to be a sepex motor which limits your controller options and voltages.


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## mamodbasher (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> hey all
> 
> There are a number of pump motors that are pre-advanced for their rotation, but usually set at 4.5 degrees.
> Jim


Thanks Jim. That likely explains why the brushes on this motor are advanced. It was a pump motor on the Hyster, and yes, likely closer to 5 degrees than the ten that I originally thought. Math was never my forte.  Ken.


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

I just put my 11" GE hyster motor up on eBay. It is a beast. I hoped to find somebody here who wanted it but i did not get any PM replies. It's rebuilt and ready to advance and use on your monster project. I obviously couldn't hope to use it on my GHIA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270412243088

On another note, I am having a hard time pulling the 9" GE apart to turn the shaft and advance. I was wondering if anyone could reccomend a good puller for this application. I have all of the bolts pulled but don't have the gumption to pull it a part by hand. Any DIY ideas so I don't have to go spend a fortune on a puller I will only use once or twice? Thanks!


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Wait.. so you can push a 48v motor to much more than that right? This forum needs a better wiki 

EDIT or I could just start at page one :doh:


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Not a bad way to spend 10 hours...

Fin.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> hey all
> 
> There are a number of pump motors that are pre-advanced for their rotation, but usually set at 4.5 degrees.
> Jim



Hi to all,

What do you think about this motor for junior dragster. It is 8", 14KW, 48v and 360 AMPS. I want to go for 96volts.


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

Can some one Please let me know what they think of this motror ?

*Yale DC Electric motor Yale # 7300410-01 95B Series* *Brand New!*​ *DC 36/48 volt Motor*​ *S/N E11881*​ *11" long case*​ *9 3/4" diameter*​ *21" over all long*​ *185 lbs*


*http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=360164060804
*​


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

winnetcom said:


> Can some one Please let me know what they think of this motror ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi winn,

Looks like a good motor to me. Don't know your intent for it. It looks like heavy cast iron drive end head. No picture of that end. Can't tell if that is the bearing or part of the end head around the shaft. Likely that it is designed to couple directly into the gearbox or axle on the forklift. So it could give you some challenge for mounting to a car tranny. No power rating given, but from the size and appearance, looks suitable for a mid size EV and with some advance good for higher voltage. Appears to be in excellent condition.

Is that what you wanted to know?

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

albano said:


> Hi to all,
> 
> What do you think about this motor for junior dragster. It is 8", 14KW, 48v and 360 AMPS. I want to go for 96volts.


8000rpm's is pretty impressive, don't know about the rest.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> 8000rpm's is pretty impressive, don't know about the rest.



It a pump motor and i want 1000amps controller on this motor


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## ironize (Aug 2, 2008)

I got some flak from a person on eBay about the GE motor I posted there. Here is a quote from his email: "48VDC 250lbs moster series motor.
Anyone who runs high voltage on this motor will destroy it in seconds. Please by all means sell this monster, but sell it for what it is, a low rpm high torque monster. "

Obviously this person isn't a buyer and is just wasting my time. I want to make sure my facts are straight in regards to higher voltage operation of this motor. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270412243088 I stated that it could be operated at higher voltages by advancing the brushes. The busybody eBay person seemed to take umbridge to that statement. Please let me know who is correct.

Thanks!


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

What type of controller will work with a GE 11" series wound motor ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any DC series controller should work. What kind of voltage and amperage are you looking for?


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

I'm thinking 96 or 120 volts at 400 amps should be enough for my Pickup. It was only meant to go about 55 mph with stock 36hp motor. Its geared to carry a ton so it should handle plenty of lead. But I don't want to destroy the trans. Also planning on using the clutch, etc. Regen would be excellent.

Is an 11" motor overkill for what I want. Range is more important to me. My work is about 10 miles and I'm pretty sure I can charge there if I ask Nice .

Is $500 a good price for an 11" GE motor?

Thanks


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

The 11" GE is kinda what I'm looking for my Pickup but auction ends NOW.
Is $500 a good price? Not in a big hurry, just window shopping.


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

winnetcom said:


> The 11" GE is kinda what I'm looking for my Pickup but auction ends NOW.
> Is $500 a good price? Not in a big hurry, just window shopping.


I would think $500 would be on the high end!!!!Bill


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## DaveAK (Jun 28, 2009)

What are the main performance differences between sep-ex and series wound. My understanding is that sep-ex has lower torque, but I like the idea of regen braking. MHWC are still listing ones like toddshotrods posted.

I'm planning on an S10 conversion, and until I found this thread hadn't considered forklift motors at all. This really gives me room to play with my budget!

I haven't played with the numbers yet, but an 11" motor would now be affordable. Would it be a good choice for a small truck, or would a 9" be better? I know it "all depends", but I'm just trying to get some ideas formulated. I can't help but think that 250lbs is too much! I'd like to start with 120V and maybe go up to 156V eventually, (controller willing), and try different things for this first vehicle. And thta's one reason I want to try regen, but I'm not sold on any one course of action yet.

This thread is an excellent resource just by itself. I should probably check out the rest of the forum soon!


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## Dr. Bill (Oct 17, 2008)

Dave...........It all depends on whether or not you would like a 6 cyl. or a V8 form of electric motor in the S10. The bigger with the same volts and amps will have more torque and power and will definitely take it better considering all things are the same, ie. brush size, com. size and count etc. I'm a gearhead from way back and to me bigger was always better but that is not always so. It's really what you want. Do lots of research and look in the garage and find something you like and play with that idea. The key is research.......Bill


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi all. This is my first post on this forum and I am quite the newbie. After reading through most of the posts, I began to get excited about the prospects for doing a conversion. It was something I had thought about last year when gas was $4.50/gal but decided the cost was too high. Then I stumbled across this post and decided that perhaps it was more affordable with a fork lift motor and I really wanted to do one. I started watching motors on ebay, and found a couple of likely motors. One such motor was asked about on the forum, and Major replied he thought it looked like a decent motor for a conversion. I bid on it and won. But, now I'm wondering if it was such a wise choice. Basically, I have no specifications other than:

*This auction is for a New Yale DC Electric motor Yale # 7300410-01 95B Series*​ *Brand New!*​ *DC 36/48 volt Motor*​ *S/N E11881*​ *11" long case*​ *9 3/4" diameter*​ *21" over all long*​ *185 lbs

*






















I'm hoping some (Jim maybe) will recognize this motor and can advise me whether I should go through with the deal? ($200 in shipping)

It is a new motor and seems to be roughly the right size and weight. I am thinking of a small pickup (Ford Ranger or Toyota) and hoping for 144 volts. Any help would be deeply appreciated.
thanks

Jim, I read your most recent post and as a new guy, let me say that many of us really appreciate your contribution. Generously sharing your knowledge and experience makes it possible for others to pursue a dream that would otherwise be beyond their ability. You are making a positive difference in the lives of others and for that we all thank you. Hope the headaches are gone for good!
Buzz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Other than the funky end plate I think it should be a decent motor. I've got a smaller Jim-modified Yale in my AMPhibian.


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## winnetcom (May 7, 2009)

Looks there are a few of us here in the same boat. Trying to indentify a good forklift motor for EV applications. There seem to be lots of candidates on Ebay but we need to start identifying some definate cases.

I almost bid on that Yale but the funky drive end stumped me. But now I see alot like the 11" GE listed this week have that. Its not really that scary now, at first I thought the other end was the drive end. Probably won't be able to use a 'standard' adapter plate but thats a given with forklift motors I imagine. I was kinda hung up on adapter plates and couplers but my mechanic/machineist has said all along he can get just about any motor to work on a VW. I just may need to pay him the $1K instead of getting it off the shelf. Thats a whole other subject...

Seems the forklift guys on Ebay will call anything an EV motor as soon as they sense interest. I imagine when they know a certain motor is really usable the price goes up.

Buzz, I'm right there with you. Not ready to dive in yet though, just researching. The other thing that scared me about the Yale motror was they didn't know if it was series wound or ??? How would I know ???

So far I have decided on a Big (185 lb+) series wound forklift motor. My truck doesn't need to go fast but I may want to pull a stump or 2 (not litterally:^). Mainly cause I think finding an off the shelf controller might not be that hard. Getting a deal on 120 volt 500+ amp might not be that easy.

It would be easy to go the Warp9 route but the $$$s don't meet my specs. Plus I have a good mechanic and electrical engineer to help me when it gets deep. We all have no experience with EVs but want to be able to come up with a reproduceable formula. And the thought of using recycled forklift motors is very appealing to me not only from a $$$ aspect. Its all about being Green right ?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Buzz

I've converted one of the Yales and it worked well but I also swapped out that DE plate for a better (lighter and more adaptable) end plate. In as much as it's a 4 brushed motor it is a long comm and the brushes are at least adaquite but not as much mass as an 8 brushed motor. There's a lot of cast iron weight to these motors so not all that weight is applicable to what I'd call usable motor mass. Try and keep the weight down and it'll work nicely. I'd also plan on blower cooling it for a longer duty cycle. On some of these yales (more so older units) they drill and tap the field terminals and screw and solder the field leads to them. If you over heat them you'll spit the solder and end up with a cold soldered connection causing high amps which will arc the leads off the terminal. I like to silver solder those two connections when I build these (even for lift use) so have a look at the field lead to stud connection. The shaft on the drive end side is easily machinable to create a standard keyed shaft so that's a plus.

Winne wrote:

Seems the forklift guys on Ebay will call anything an EV motor as soon as they sense interest. I imagine when they know a certain motor is really usable the price goes up.

The economic meltdown we're going through really tanked the lift industry (for most)(if people aint buying product the distributions aren't killing their lift trucks. I'm seeing more and more places trying to tout (whatever) they have surplus of as the next best EV motor since sliced bread and it pisses me off in huge ways! You are 100% correct in that the more you show interest the higher the price is going to be and why I advise not to get to excited when you locate those diamonds in the rough.

Dave:
Regen is tougher on brushed motors (even sepex motors) as it puts more stain on the brushes and armature than if just using it as the drive. That said, if you're planning on doing this opt for a larger motor to comp for the double duty the brushes and armature will be doing. For most the big honker motors will just be extra weight you'll have to carry around.

Hope this helps. Happy hunting.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought the description of the Yale said series


> *This auction is for a New Yale DC Electric motor Yale # 7300410-01 95B Series*


*
*I assumed this means series wound.
As for the end plate I was thinking the best thing to do might be to simply have a new end housing made to the same specs as a Warp9 or 11, that way you can bolt on an off the shelf adapter. Or maybe have the new end made to bolt right up to your transmission, though you might need access holes to attach the coupler.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey JR

In as much as this "is" a series wound motor on the Yale, the 95B is their code for the type and size of the motor. This is much like GE's will have a size code in their numbers. You'll find they'll all start with 5BT... then have 1346, 1366, etc where on the GE's it's this 4 digit number that states the size of the motor. On small GE's they'll be 5BC.. then a 48 or 49 which also designates the size (49's are longer). Anyway just a word of caution that a "series" note on the tag could only mean what type of motor it is for that manufacturer.
Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Gotcha, good info as always. By the way, the 7.5 inch Yale you built me is still plugging away in the AMPhibian. At some point I think I'll put the timing back to neutral for more torque, I keep loading the trailer up with more and more wood and gravel, and I've come close to stalling it on my hill a few times.


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey,
Thanks everybody for jumping in to reply.

Winnie: There is an open source controller (144v/500A) under development over at ecomodder that looks sweet. Should be in kit form for about $400 when it's finalized, and have some flexibility built in. Here is the link: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-144v-motor-controller-6404-187.html

Better pack a lunch cuz it's a long but enjoyable read. I like the idea of the VW pickup. What is the weight of that thing without the motor?

Jim, thanks for the info. I guess I looked at those two wires on the brushes and assumed  that those were two sets at each post. Can that be reworked to provide more brush mass or when you say adequate, do you mean there is enough mass there to not worry about it (like may need to be replaced more often)? 

I looked at the end plate and thought that could be worked around. 
Shouldn't be that much harder than fabbing an adapter plate ya? Worst case or maybe even best case, is to have a new end plate machined to marry up with the trans. I don't even have the car yet, so I think maybe I got the cart before the proverbial pony. But a new motor for about $500 total seemed too good to pass up. 

Jim, I did try and see what you might have available to buy, but I think the link I got under your profile took me to an old blog with nothing posted for a couple of years. Somebody posted another link in this thread that has more up to date info on what your doing. I haven't had time to look through it yet. I would have preferred buying from you as I could have driven down (I'm in Port Townsend, WA). My wife and I are interested in maybe moving to Bend. Thanks again for all you do.

JRP3: That's one interesting commuter you got there. You must really live in the sticks.

Thanks again to everybody for contributing. What a great community.

Buzz


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

Jim,
thought of another question: I to am very much interested in regen braking. Would my motor be adequate to the task, given that regen is hard on the brushes? Or should I try and back out of this deal and opt for an 11" or 12" GE?

How hard is it to implement? My understanding (limited ya) is that a motor can be turned into a generator by simply reversing the leads. No? I realize that requires some magic at the controller end, but not rocket science. But then again, you don't know what you don't know!

When you use silver solder to solder those field leads, do you use silver because of the higher melting temp? When I look at those leads, what should I look for?

Got the shipping estimate for the motor: It's about half what I expected so ya!

By the way, it appears the ebay seller of this motor has another just like it. He relisted right after the auction ended. Wish me and the other bidder had known that one.

Weight is a problem. Well, actually, batteries are THE problem. I think the government should seize tha nickel metal hydride patent under eminant domain. And I'm not a fan of that at all, but this is serious.

more later: gotta go now.
buzz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Many have tried to do regen with a series motor, it rarely works well, if at all. It's really not worth it with the small amount of energy you get back, and there are few, if any, controllers that can do it. Since most DC motors are advanced for the higher voltage, they become retarded during regen which is bad for the motor.


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## DaveAK (Jun 28, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Many have tried to do regen with a series motor, it rarely works well, if at all. It's really not worth it with the small amount of energy you get back, and there are few, if any, controllers that can do it. Since most DC motors are advanced for the higher voltage, they become retarded during regen which is bad for the motor.


I was thinking more for the braking effect, as I agree that I'm not going to get much in the way of energy back under my typical usage. And a very good point about the retardation.

I've done a brief search and Kelly do make a 120V SepEx controller with regen which would probably be a good start, but I'm looking for a controller that would allow me to go to 144V or 156V should I want to grow my system. There are a lot more options in series wound controllers as you already know.

Another reason that I'm looking at sepex/regen is that I want to do something different than the norm, as much as a challenge and for the education. Of course, there's no point in doing that if it's a waste of time and money! I think I will have a lot more options with forklift motors up here in Alaska as opposed to trying to get a NetGain or ADC motor shipped from the lower 48.

What about the difference in torque/power characteristics between SepEx and Series? I want to be able to haul small loads with my truck and not just have it as a daily commuter. It's looking like series might be the way to go if all I'm going to get out of a SepEx is braking effect.

And Jim, thanks for the heads up on the double brush duty! Something I certainly wouldn't have considered.


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## DaveAK (Jun 28, 2009)

Some good news for me! I've just been told, (by my wife), that there's a local scrap yard with some forklifts. My choice of motor is likely to depend on what they have to offer, but it's going to knock a big chunk of money off the price just to be able to get one locally. I hope they have some good choices.

It also means that my wife is warming to the idea of my latest hair brain project.


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

Wow! No new posts in five days. What happened? Everybody eat too many hot dogs over the fourth?

Well, the motor I purchased on ebay is on it's way. Looks like it will take some creativity to get it to match up with a trans. How about just cutting into a drive shaft on a rear wheel drive and creating a plug in hybrid? I would like to use a small pickup anyways and it looks like these motors would lend themselves to that application. It would make it easier to hook up and extend the range a good bit. What do you all think?

By the way if you haven't been to Jim's web site and seen some of the work he has done on these motors, you have missed out. Jim, all I can say is you are indeed an artist. I don't know what it costs to have you go through a motor, but dang man, those are beeutiful.

Buzz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think mounting it as you describe would be all that easy to do it right. If you can't get your needed range with batteries I'm not sure if going through all the trouble to make it a hybrid makes sense. I think swapping out the drive end for a more "normal" one, or having one custom made to mate up with your transmission, is the way to go.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another possibility, maybe, is to use the shaft on the Comm end instead, if it's large enough, if the bearing is strong enough, if you support the motor from both ends, and if the vehicle isn't too heavy. I don't know if this is a real option just throwing the idea out there.


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Another possibility, maybe, is to use the shaft on the Comm end instead, if it's large enough, if the bearing is strong enough, if you support the motor from both ends, and if the vehicle isn't too heavy. I don't know if this is a real option just throwing the idea out there.


Yeah, I saw that end was tapered with a key. I'm not sure what the size that is used for the common adapters is, I think it might be 1 1/8". I don't think the idea of splitting the drive shaft is that difficult to do right. You put universal joints on both ends of the motor and splice into the drive shaft. The u-joints compensate for any small misalignment. I think it would be more forgiving than trying to line up the motor with the trans, but I've never done either. I know it's not a conventional approach, but with the state of the battery technology, it's tough to get any decent range out of an all electric. I think netgain has something like what i was thinking by useing their "transwarp" and what they call Emis. They tap into the onboard computer to decide how much electric to engage. I was thinking of a decoupled system like the Riley xr3. Heck you could just back the ICE throttle off so that it doesn't even rev until about 30 mph. I think this could be made to work, but I'm ususally full of it.

buzz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it could work, just not sure if the end results would be worth it. I believe NetGain has had some problems with their EMIS system.
The problem with hybrids is you get the worst of both worlds, whatever system you are using at the moment is crippled by dragging around the extra weight of the other system. What sort of range do you need?


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## drbuzz (Jun 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I think it could work, just not sure if the end results would be worth it. I believe NetGain has had some problems with their EMIS system.
> The problem with hybrids is you get the worst of both worlds, whatever system you are using at the moment is crippled by dragging around the extra weight of the other system. What sort of range do you need?


A good point and a good question!
1st to the point: I was thinking of a decoupled system where both ICE and electric operate simultaneously, and independently. You would have to overlap the performance curves to get the best from both systems and use one to overcome the shortcomings of the other. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just beginning my education on this subject.

2nd: I think right now my minimum range would be 40 miles, but, we live out in the boonies and occasionally need to go about 120 miles RT. I don't want to have 3 cars (well actually one needs to be a pickup).

The wife's car is a lexus (she looks good in it!) that gets 25 mpg which is not too bad but I happen to be one who thinks in a short period of time, that $4.50/gal gas is going to look cheap. Right now I drive a pickup that gets about 16. I would like to eventually replace both vehicles with something that gets max mileage (see statement above). Every time I go to the pump I feel like I've been assaulted. Somebody tell me why (other than greed) I can't buy a nickel metal hydride battery for my EV (end rant).

As I said before, I'm just beginning my education, but I do tend to think outside the box until I understand the reason for convention.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another possibility would be to go all EV then have a gen set trailer you hook on for longer trips. That way most of the time in EV mode you don't have the ICE stuff to deal with.
As for the NiMH battery, it's old tech at this point. Lithium is better and cheaper, and continuing to get better and cheaper.


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Hi. This might have already been covered in here, but the thread is 67 pages long. I honestly don't have the patience to read them all.

Anyway, I see that for DC lift motors they can be overvolted to around 144V (from 36 or 48V) to get the power needed for an EV. Are AC motors the same way? Can a 48V (or similar) AC lift motor be over volted to something higher to get more power? Isn't the ultimate limit the voltage limit of the insulation? I assume that the bearings limit the frquency at which a motor can be run (a 60Hz motor would probably melt bearings at 400Hz). Thanks for the feedback!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> Anyway, I see that for DC lift motors they can be overvolted to around 144V (from 36 or 48V) to get the power needed for an EV. Are AC motors the same way? Can a 48V (or similar) AC lift motor be over volted to something higher to get more power?


Hi vw,

Yes, kind of. With an AC induction motor, when you raise the voltage you must also raise the frequency or else it will saturate.



> Isn't the ultimate limit the voltage limit of the insulation?


Sure, there is a limit on the insulation system used in the motor. But it would typically be much higher than any battery voltage you'd consider using. That is not to say that a particular motor would still conform to agency certifications, like UL, when run at higher than nameplate ratings, if that is a concern.



> I assume that the bearings limit the frquency at which a motor can be run (a 60Hz motor would probably melt bearings at 400Hz).


Here again, the limit for the bearings is likely much higher than what you'd consider running. Yeah, a 4 pole motor at 400 Hz is 12,000 RPM. Bearings used in these motors are not going to melt. They'll do just fine but have a shorter life, but likely out live your EV.

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

hi all,
I'm goint to look at a 72v 1990 hyster counterbalance lifttruck later this week. the guy thinks it has a delco traction motor. i know its very vague just wondering if anyone has any info as to suitability.
many thanks.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi all,

I have a pump motor that is 17" long and 9 1/2" diameter, it came out of Toyota forklift. Do you guys think it OK to use a light pick up, if yes at what volts should i go.

Albano


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Got any nameplate data for it?


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

vwdevotee said:


> Got any nameplate data for it?


Nope all i know is it came out of a 48volts Toyota forklift, but would like to know more about it and if is OK for light pick up.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a pump motor that is 17" long and 9 1/2" diameter, it came out of Toyota forklift. Do you guys think it OK to use a light pick up, if yes at what volts should i go.
> 
> Albano


Hi Albano,

Doesn't look too bad to me. Needs a little clean up. I think the 9 inch motors like Warp and ADC use more comm bars, so this might not be good for as high of voltages as those run, but I'd say 100, maybe 120V. Just watch your RPM. Stay below 5000, maybe 4500 max to be safe.

Being as how it was a pump motor, it is likely unidirectional. Rotation right for you? And you don't show the output shaft. Might be one of those internal splines. How you going to couple up to it?

Might be a diamond in the rough. Might be heck to actually use. Up to you.

Good luck,

major


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Being as how it was a pump motor, it is likely unidirectional. Rotation right for you? And you don't show the output shaft. Might be one of those internal splines. How you going to couple up to it?

Might be a diamond in the rough. Might be heck to actually use. Up to you.

Good luck,

major[/quote]


Here is the output shaft, but i can always make a new shaft.

Should i use direct drive or should i use a gearbox? The pick up is about 900kg (1984lbs) 


Thank Albano


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> Here is the output shaft, but i can always make a new shaft.


Easier said than done.



> Should i use direct drive or should i use a gearbox? The pick up is about 900kg (1984lbs)


A gearbox is a given. You won't have much fun driving with the motor at driveshaft speed. Now a multi ratio transmission is the question you should ask. And that is up to you. I'd suggest yes.

Regards,

major


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

OK as i`m into forklift business and i do get now and then a few electric forklift, now my question is which is better motor for a light pick up. Is it a pump motor or a drive motor. As i always see that the pump motor has more kw and rpm than the drive motor.I do have 1231c 144v Curtis controller at the moment. 

I will be using a gearbox as you said it better.

The shaft is not a problem at all, my friend does a lots of mod for racing gearbox and he always playing around with shaft and none ever broke even with 1000+hp 

I don`t really worry about the range but worry more about the power.

Albano


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll give some general thoughts while stating I could be wrong. I think the pump motors will be physically smaller than the drive motors and not capable of as much continuous power output when run at higher voltage, but some may be large enough to work. Sometimes they have female shaft ends so the whole shaft would probably need to be replaced, sometimes it's not so easy.
Some may also have weird drive end housings that would need to be changed out or modified.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Pump motors will likely be good candidates for trikes, bikes and so forth. Good motors and they too can handle high voltages and amps. Most choose to use lower voltages for bikes and such because of space and weight constraints. Excellent candidates for lithium power.
> 
> Pete
> 
> PS. It is best to stick with standard shafts than it is the splined shafts. However splined shafts are not deal killers and many excellent EV's use them.


I just got a look at this Hyster drive motor and they want it for $260, it is 72volts and has 8 brushes. I know it has a funny cover in the front but as i said it won`t be a problem cause we can make a new one to fit on a gearbox. 

Albano


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

hi,
I had a look at a forktruck traction motor yesterday from a mitsubishi 4 ton. Its rated 72/80v and 12kw. Its got 4 sets of 2 brushes and a wide comm with thin bars. Would this be suitable for a car conversion?
many thanks.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

HI to all

I just bought this motor today for $200. It from Hyster drive motor and it is 9" wide and 48volts. Do you think it is ok for a light pickup truck. As i said i will make a new front cover and a adapter plate to fit on the gearbox, the pickup is about 900kg (1984 lbs) And i have a Curtis 1231c controller

Albano


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Should be!
> 
> Better quality photos will be good. How many terminals on that motor? 2 or 4?
> 
> ...



Sorry about the photos i took it with my cell phone and it does not have " "micro". The motor is 4 terminal.
Thank










Albano


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

albano said:


> i took it with my cell phone and it does not have " "micro".


Just FYI, and it's totally not important, but it's macro, not micro. Anyway, can you retype the nameplate data?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

ok guys picked up the motor today. Sorry for the bad brush end pics the cam battery died! anyway rating plate states:
Mitsubishi caterpillar forklift.
Made in england
volts : 72/80
rpm : 1180/1360
rating : one hour
KW 11.4/12.8

Has six large bolt terminals marked S1 , S2 , A1 , A2 , F1 and F2
Connected A2 and S1 together and applied 12v to A1 , S1 and motor spun up and ran sweet. Has four sets of two brushes. Each brush has 2 large copper wires leading to a copper bar. Output shaft is approx 31mm outside dia and splined. M12 thread in center. So whats the verdict? Planning a bmw 316 compact conversion.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I should add the com bars are very clean no pitting or burning just a little oily. The arm bars are a nice wine colour no sign of overheating. Motor is 11.5" dia , 15" long and weighs about 80-100kg (approx 200lbs).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I should add the com bars are very clean no pitting or burning just a little oily. The arm bars are a nice wine colour no sign of overheating. Motor is 11.5" dia , 15" long and weighs about 80-100kg (approx 200lbs).


Hi jack,

Looks like a sweet motor to me. Oil on the comm. Not good. I'd put her in for a good bath. Although many a motor probably runs with oily crap in it, but not a good idea.

I see A, S and F terminals in your previous post. A for Armature, S for Series field and usually F is for shunt field. So you may have a compound motor. Hard telling field proportion, shunt vs series. And as you found out, it will run with only the series field. Would run better with both connected, but they need to be in the correct polarity. Can you take resistance from F1 to F2 and post it? Any chance you can get the wiring diagram for the motor or controller which was used with it?

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

dc resistance from F1 to F2 is 18 ohms. Resistance from series field to case is 2.5 mega ohms. Not much oil on the com just a light film. May be able to get some data from the controller. F1 and F2 only seem to have had very light wire leading to them.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> dc resistance from F1 to F2 is 18 ohms. Resistance from series field to case is 2.5 mega ohms. Not much oil on the com just a light film. May be able to get some data from the controller. F1 and F2 only seem to have had very light wire leading to them.


18 ohms, hey. Like 4 amps on 72 volts. 288 watts. Could be like about a 50/50 shunt/series or more compound motor. Interesting.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

major said:


> 18 ohms, hey. Like 4 amps on 72 volts. 288 watts. Could be like about a 50/50 shunt/series or more compound motor. Interesting.



Is that good ?  Looking in "build your own electric vehicle" book it says compound wound are the best of both worlds and can do regen. I'll have to think about a control system. Is there any danger in just putting 12v on A1 , A2 and F1 and F2 to see if it will run in shunt mode?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

ok did a quick experiment. Connected up to run in series mode then applied 12v to F1 and F2. Motor speed decreased slightly. Swapped the polarity on F1 and F2 and motor speed increased a whisker.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> ok did a quick experiment. Connected up to run in series mode.


Hi jack,

Pretty much answered you own question.



> then applied 12v to F1 and F2. Motor speed decreased slightly.


Cumulative compound. Series and shunt fields add for a stronger field.



> Swapped the polarity on F1 and F2 and motor speed increased a whisker.


Differential compound. Shunt field subtracts from the series field weakening the total field.

Good experiment 

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So for ev use i'm guessing i need to use it as a series motor during acceleration mabey with a small shunt voltage to prevent over speeding and then bring in the shunt winding to get the motor to maintain speed despite varied load?

Also guessing i can use the shunt winding for regen?

sorry for all the questions just on a learning curve!


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

What do guys think about this motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> So for ev use i'm guessing i need to use it as a series motor during acceleration mabey with a small shunt voltage to prevent over speeding and then bring in the shunt winding to get the motor to maintain speed despite varied load?


Hi jack,

Well obviously it (compound motor) was used for traction on the forklift, so you could too. Unless you have the forklift controller and run it at 72 or 80 volts, you'll have a tough time finding a compound motor controller.

And yes, you can use a series motor controller on that motor by just connecting the armature and series field to it. And yes, you can power the shunt field separately.

Torque = armature current times flux. Torque is what you want for acceleration. So to maximize torque, maximize flux by running the most shunt field you can, cumulative. After cruise speed is obtained, reduce shunt field current at least to its rating so you don't overheat it or run in saturation. Having a certain shunt field level present will give you a finite no load RPM, unlike the series motor.



> Also guessing i can use the shunt winding for regen?


Well, yes, but it is not as easy as it sounds. Unless you have a half bridge chopper type controller, you cannot boost the generated voltage. So the shunt field would give you a limited regen region just at very high motor RPM. Also, in the regen mode, the armature current reverses, so would the series field and it would then be differential to the shunt field. So, you'd have to switch out the series field during regen. All in all, probably a lot more trouble than it would be worth.

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Many thanks for your help major! I'll probably build my own controller in any event.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Few more pics. Pulled the armature today.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Few more pics. Pulled the armature today.



Hi Jack!

The field coil look a bit weak it not those solid flat copper. Don`t think it can handle a lot of amps.

Albano


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Actually its a compound motor as discovered by major earlier with both series and shunt fields! Noticed the 2006 stamp on the arm. Would it be capable of higher than nameplate rpm?


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> The motor is a shunt motor with fine field windings and no it will not accept tons of amps. Fields like this do not need to take in mega amps to create the required magnetic fields. This motor looks exceptionally clean inside and looks like it will be good to go. As long as they have a SepEx controller it will be a fine motor. Kelly Controllers has them and has them in high voltage models too. Should do fine for a nice cruiser and you should be able to do some regen too if you decide on that function. Kelly provides Regen too on the SepEx controller if you choose that model.
> 
> 
> Not many other models have regen but or for that matter high voltage SepEx.
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Actually its a compound motor as discovered by major earlier with both series and shunt fields! Noticed the 2006 stamp on the arm. Would it be capable of higher than nameplate rpm?


Yeah, jack,

Looks like a 50/50 compound motor, 2 shunt coils and two series.

Really looks like some Prestolite parts in there  Is it 11.2 inch diameter outside on the frame? Does it have 65 comm bars?

The 2006 on the armature was probably a service date, maybe a comm turn. And yes, nameplate was like 1100 RPM. I'd think 3000 easy, maybe 4. But if it is an 11" motor, probably has a 5 to 6" dia comm. A molded one at that. I'd stay away from 5000 for sure.

One sweet motor 

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Its approx 11.5" diameter.Made in england so could well be prestolite. Here's another pic. Not sure of the comm count as its back together. Gonna name it the warp 11.5


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

More experiments

Friend called over and we had a play with the motor. Made a "torque tester" from 2 pieces of 3" x 2" timber and some threaded rod so we could load up the shaft.

Test 1 : 12v series field only. Tightned up the timber clamp and the motor lost speed but still chewed up the wood and couldn't be stopped!

Test 2 : 12v series field and 24v on shunt field from 2 small 7ah gell batteries. Motor ran at about half of the series field only rpm but chewed up the wood big time without loosing much rpm.

Test 3 : 12v series field and 48v shunt field from 4 7ah gell batts. Motor ran at about 1/3 of series field rpm. Wound on the clamp and it went through it like a chain saw! Both of us had to sit on the motor to stop the frame spinning.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> More experiments


Learn something about field strength and torque there, did ya, jack?

Simple but effective test. Be careful. Things can break, like bones 

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Sometimes reading the textbooks and running the equations is not enough! Should have done a video was very funny! My friend wanted to know why we bother having engines in cars with motors that strong!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey don't worry guys i'm a trained CTU agent

On a serious note Will I have to advance the brushes to run higher than 80v and would that cause problems if i want to use some regen via the shunt windings?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Arggghhhh, my eyes hurt! I've just read the whole thread.

Right that does it, I will need to find a local fork lift breaker and see what motors are available and what I can afford to invest in.

I have figured out that I am looking at:
9"+ diameter
14"+ long
A decent shaft preferably not tapered and get the female splines to fit if possible
Long comm bars and lots of them
4 terminals
Heavy, very heavy!

I need to sleep now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Heavy, very heavy!


But not too heavy, no point in carrying around extra weight you don't need.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

woodsmith try to get a high voltage forklift ie 72 or 80v. I got mine from a mitsubishi.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

any suggestions on where to find 13" DC motors (with interpoles)..

Maybe we can setup a type of "finders fee program", sort of like our own, cash for clunkers program...Several reasons to to do it...

#1 help to add to the EV community
#2 help out a fellow DIY member
#2 help clear our Nations scrap yards
#3 Make some extra side cash

I know I personally would pay a finders fee for a 13" motor with interpoles..


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3: OK, that's reasonable, heavy but not silly heavy.


Jackbauer: I was thinking that the motors were not that fast in it's forklift mode so giving it a higher voltage and advancing the brushes would speed it up.
Would a standard 72 volt forklift motor be faster as in fast enough to run a vehicle at 72 volts or would it need speeding up?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well i'm no expert on motors but from what i understand , a 72 or 80v motor is a better prospect for running from a higher voltage than a 36 or 48v. More knowledgeable people on here will give you better info.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the answer is "it depends". Say your 72 volt motor is built to run around 1000 RPMs at 72 volts, that's probably not fast enough for road use in a car. Even upping the voltage to 144 and advancing the brushes would only give you about 2000 RPM max, which is still probably too slow. Now if the 72 volt motor is built to run 2000 RPM at 72 volts then upping the voltage would probably give you a more usable RPM.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

shot a quick video of the warp 11.5 today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU

watch out for the nimh camcorder battery!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> shot a quick video of the warp 11.5 today
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAtDzFfrWU
> 
> watch out for the nimh camcorder battery!


That's a clear and simple demonstartion there, thanks.


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## walcen (Aug 7, 2009)

Hi Jim, I joined this forum for the opportunity of thanking you for your time and patience in explaining things in a way that layman like myself can understand. I know little about motors or electronics but I'm learning .

I do have a question if I may, regarding exceeding a dc motor's recommended voltage ( I think you call it a sweet spot ).

For example if one doubled or tripled say a 12volt dc motor to 24 or 36 volts only for the purpose of increasing the speed but not the torque, would limiting the amperage also allow for better motor longevity?

A bit like using amp boost as a turbo to achieve a given speed then dropping the amps to just coast along.

I hope my question isn't too dumb for a first post.

kindest regards to all

Wal


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ultimately it's power that's moving the vehicle, which is a factor of torque and RPM's. If you lower one and raise the other the same proportion you've kept power the same. Too much voltage can kill a motor the same as too much amperage, so you need to stay within the motor limits on both. That said higher voltage allows lower amp draw for the same power which helps keep things cooler.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jrp3 said:


> ultimately it's power that's moving the vehicle, which is a factor of torque and rpm's. If you lower one and raise the other the same proportion you've kept power the same. Too much voltage can kill a motor the same as too much amperage, so you need to stay within the motor limits on both. That said higher voltage allows lower amp draw for the same power which helps keep things cooler.


+1

..
.
.


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## jdchmiel (Aug 5, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...874184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182

So was buying this a good idea or a bad one?

Quick specs are
25.4 v 353 A 7.9 hp 

thats 12 hp of electricity, right? Does that mean this motor is 7.9/12 =65% efficient?
Any general idea how many volts I could throw at this?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's the output shaft look like? I can't even see one in the pictures.


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## jdchmiel (Aug 5, 2009)

it is a female output, quite small though.. 9 spline maybe 5/8" in diameter


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Coupling the motor may be a problem, you may have to get the motor re-shafted. Since it's wound for 24 volts I'm not sure how high you can take it, but I'd guess 72-96 with brush advancing would be ok.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jdchmiel said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...874184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182
> 
> So was buying this a good idea or a bad one?
> 
> ...


Hi jdch,

Be careful about nameplate data. 25.4V could be open circuit. Actual electrical power input at 353A could be less. But at that power, this motor on 24V will not be super efficient. And, it is obviously a pump motor, so the 7.9 HP rating could be for 5 minutes or 20% duty cycle, not continuous or one hour as traction motors are commonly rated.

A good buy for you? Depends on what your intent was. And actual condition of the motor. Hard to tell from the pics. It looks like a 2 terminal motor meaning unidirectional. Is it the correct direction for ya? JRP3 has commented on the shaft. Those internal splines are difficult to couple to unless you use the pump. And if you know what you're doing, you can run higher voltage and get decent power output. Looks like a 7 inch GE motor and those are well built machines. Maybe a little shorter length than typically used for small car conversions.

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

ok more motor madness This baby is from a toyota forklift. Rated at 10kw at 80v. Measures 16" long by 13" diameter at the drive end and 14" in diameter at the other end. Will be know as the warp 13. Seems to be a totally enclosed design and is quite heavy. One side has two 35mm sq connecton leads and the other has the same plus a smaller 2 core cable. Runs fine in series mode from a 12v batt. The two core cable reads as a dead short on the meter so i'm guessing its a bimetal type thermal cuttout.

Brush gear is all enclosed so i'll pop off the rear housing next week for a photo shoot and inspection. Makes nearly no noise at all running on 12v.


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## jdchmiel (Aug 5, 2009)

major - thanks
It is a GE motor, about 80 lb. 7 x 14 inches
I have no idea on the rotation direction. 
The built in fan would make me suspect the duty cycle is pretty high?
I would think a splined shaft would be a pretty simple task for a machine shop? Too bad casting is not very strong, it would be ridiculously easy to cast the needed shape.
How do I determine rotation direction? (I will read the wiki on the site tonight, and do some searching, don't attack the newb questions!)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jdchmiel said:


> The built in fan would make me suspect the duty cycle is pretty high?


Not necessarily. At 1100RPM they'd be looking for all they can get. Fork pump motors are rated pretty low on-time.



> I would think a splined shaft would be a pretty simple task for a machine shop?


Chances are it is an SAE standard spline. But machine shops don't typically have hobbs for that. Might be more trouble and cost than you think. Worth a try. Or Jim Husted can actually re-shaft motors like that. Other motor rebuilders might be able to do it, but likely cost you an arm and leg. You might be able to get a pump and use the shaft to fab an adaptor. But then you have the whole mechanical output coupling design to contend with. Likely a far from simple task 



> How do I determine rotation direction?


Hook up a 6 or 12 volt battery and see for yourself. We don't really know if it is a series motor, but good chance it is. Series motors will overspeed at no-load, so don't use rated voltage, 24V. I think 12V would be o.k. since it is rated at relatively low speed (1100) to start with. But to check for rotation, you only need to goose it. Battery and jumper cables. Just touch the terminal with the clamp. You'll see a spark and motor will start rapidly. It will twist, so have your buddy hold (or lean on) it.

Regards,

major


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## typ4 (Aug 16, 2009)

Brand new user here, great forum, trying to help my son get this going. He is the electronic genius. He has a ge motor from a cat lift . 11 inch
36/48 volt 330 amp, dont have the data plate info here. anyway it has 6 terms
F1/F2 have tiny wires near shaft end
A1/A2 on end bell iirc
S1/S2 on hsng.
What is a good way to start to wire this to test. 
Here is what it is going in
http://mutantbus.wordpress.com/
Here is a couple pics.
Thanks in advance for any info.


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## typ4 (Aug 16, 2009)

He got it to push the articulating vw bus they are building for Burningman they can only go 5 mph on the playa, the trans has only 1st and 2nd gear
He is still deciding on voltage and cant get a controller built due to time so some big contactors and pulse relays may be used to start it, I dont know but I will make sure the results get here. I made the adapter plate and the trans guy did the spline mod. The motor had a 1.25 14 sae spline.
Is there a good way to soft start it?

anywhere to get an easy wire diagram?
Thanks
Russ


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Russ, do I know you from OBN?


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## typ4 (Aug 16, 2009)

david85 said:


> Russ, do I know you from OBN?


Yes. You do.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

typ4 said:


> Yes. You do.


Sweet! Welcome to the "other" dark side Although I seem to remember you have already dabbled in EVs before.

Have you considered just buying a controller? or is the idea to make as much from scratch as possible? (for as little $$$ as possible?)

Altrax makes a nice line of medium voltage controllers that are designed for sepex motors. Nice thing about it, is you get electric braking and they do back their product.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Alltrax.htm


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## typ4 (Aug 16, 2009)

Dollars are a big concern, anyone got a control they would like tested?
Brandon is an electrical whiz beyond his years and could build one but time is the enemy.

Ok ,what is SepEx? 
We ran it on 12v today runs nice and quiet, he called and said on 24 it really rocks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sepex is separately excited field, which takes a special controller. Unfortunately the controller needs to match the field map of the motor, and the Alltrax units probably won't match up.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

typ4 said:


> 36/48 volt 330 amp, dont have the data plate info here. anyway it has 6 terms
> F1/F2 have tiny wires near shaft end
> A1/A2 on end bell iirc
> S1/S2 on hsng.
> What is a good way to start to wire this to test.


Hi typ4,

I suggest you review jackbauer's experience with a compound motor on this thread starting with post #680.

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Connect S1 to A1 and a 12v battery to S2 and A2. Be ready for the spark and she should start up and run. I ran some experiments earlier in the thread showing different speed and torque available from a compound motor. Not an expert but if you need any advice just ask.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2009)

I had an interesting conversation with George Hamstra, President of Netgain the other day. He had seen our videos on YouTube and was pretty taken with them. So he shared some of their plans and they are pretty eminent. After asking him if I could share, he noted that they are taking advanced orders. He's got some good stuff going here and is understandably excited.

1. The biggie is called the 11HV. This is a version of their 11 inch motor that can handle much higher voltages. Nominally, 288 volts in a non-advanced setting and 336 volts with advance. Why the note on advance? Well the regen works of course in the neutral setting. Regen? Yes. It has Interpoles and will support regenerative braking. 

I'm picturing a 288 kW motor and about 550 ft lbs. I waited for him to drop the other shoe and tell me about current limitations and total power limitations and all the other dream dashers.

NOT. In FACT, he starts talking about their own line of controllers. 1000 AMP controllers that talk to each other and you can string modularly for 2000 AMP or whatever. With PC like slots for option cards for regen, series/parallel switching, GPS, and a bunch of other stuff. Water cooled.

It seems they were the secret admirer that were going to purchase Zilla, and after what they thought was a done deal, Otmar backed out on it and it came apart. So they've engineered their own line of high power water cooled controllers. And 1K and 2K are just the beginning.

He did caution me they just weren't going to support 5K pots, it would all be Hall effect pedals. I told him we had looked at 5K pots early on, and decided it was the dumbest idea since the electric fireplace. So no loss.

He did mention they will feature a slightly higher RPM range, but I've forgotten what number he used. My sense is it was not AC induction type numbers of 9000-12000, but more like 6500-7500, somewhere in there. I just can't recall.

So we've kind of signed up for the advanced order list. I've got a "secret" project in mind if I can talk him into Siamesing a pair of these.

Apparently the IGBT thing has gotten a lot better recently, better silicon and lower prices, higher currents, easier drivers, etc. 

This was about a month ago, and he was talking 10-12 weeks for the first motors. They actually put a video up on Youtube providing instructions for installing the controller, I just don't think anybody noticed. It was so simple, it wasn't very exciting.

Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jrickard said:


> I had an interesting conversation with George Hamstra, President of Netgain the other day. He had seen our videos on YouTube and was pretty taken with them. So he shared some of their plans and they are pretty eminent. After asking him if I could share, he noted that they are taking advanced orders. He's got some good stuff going here and is understandably excited.
> 
> 1. The biggie is called the 11HV. This is a version of their 11 inch motor that can handle much higher voltages. Nominally, 288 volts in a non-advanced setting and 336 volts with advance. Why the note on advance? Well the regen works of course in the neutral setting. Regen? Yes. It has Interpoles and will support regenerative braking.
> 
> ...


Warp Drive Controller videos with Ryan from Netgain:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ngcontrols#play/uploads


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is interesting news, but really should be in it's own thread. Mods?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> This is interesting news, but really should be in it's own thread. Mods?


+1

This is too major to be just a post, needs its own thread...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't know if my fork lift motor thread should really be on here or not for your opinions but I wanted a separate thread to help me keep track of it.

Anyway, it is here if anyone wants to have a look or pass comment on the motors I have to choose from.

The chap I am getting a motor from is a motor rewinder and it occured to me that it might even be a good idea to get a price for making the motor the 'best fit' for my needs, if I knew what needed doing, and having any modifications done by him instead of me.

If I needed heavier gauge windings for example then maybe I might as well have a dead motor rewound to suit. Would that be a good route to pursue?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> ..... for making the motor the 'best fit' for my needs, if I knew what needed doing, and having any modifications done by him instead of me.
> 
> If I needed heavier gauge windings for example then maybe I might as well have a dead motor rewound to suit. Would that be a good route to pursue?


Hey Wood,

That's the problem, isn't it? What needs doing? My suggestion, leave the windings as designed. Unless you know for sure what you're doing. I know it is a long thread, but you can spot read and see what guys have had success with. The motors you show in the pictures, besides being dirty, look pretty stout. Maybe a little short on comm length. EDC and Hitachi make very good machines. 

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Major, dirty I don't mind if it brings the cost down and is suitable and doesn't need too much repair. For me it is a case of not knowing good dirty and bad dirty, yet.

I'll leave all else alone and keep whatever I go for standard and keep on looking.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd keep looking. I did an email shot of every forklift company in Ireland (about 40). Two replied and I got one very good motor and controller for 500 euros and a few weeks later I got another motor for the price of shipping which i have christened the "warp13" as its a totally enclosed beast of a thing that belongs in an suv! See my previous posts for details. If your interested I have two good contacts in both these companies so if your stuck might be worth a look.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I'd keep looking. I did an email shot of every forklift company in Ireland (about 40). Two replied and I got one very good motor and controller for 500 euros and a few weeks later I got another motor for the price of shipping which i have christened the "warp13" as its a totally enclosed beast of a thing that belongs in an suv! See my previous posts for details. If your interested I have two good contacts in both these companies so if your stuck might be worth a look.


Would that 'warp13' happen to be looking for a home!

I will have to do likewise and keep contacting forklift companies and looking for forklifts on Ebay. If you do hear of one going I would be interested and yes, please do pm the details as I might as well add them to my list to contact.
Thank you.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

can anyone advise me on this motor? can't identify any specs,  need about 15kw continous and i'd like 50kw 1 min but thats flexible. 

thanks

*http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/48v-DC-Electr...s_ET?hash=item3ca51450d7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14*


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

the photo is very poor so i'd ask the seller if its series wound and for some better photos including the shaft. I imagine your power requirements may be a bit much for a fork motor but again , i'm no expert.


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> the photo is very poor so i'd ask the seller if its series wound and for some better photos including the shaft. I imagine your power requirements may be a bit much for a fork motor but again , i'm no expert.


well whats realistic numbers for 1hr Continous and 1 min peak? from my calcs i need:

9.6kw at 60mph 
13.5kw at 70mph

to maintain speed. 

would be running it at about 72v ish dependent on motor,


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

My motor is rated at 12.4kw at 80v for one hour. I would say thats reasonably conservative and if you added some extra fan cooling it would work. Motor came out of a 2.5ton mitsubishi fork. So at a guess i'd say you need something similar. My "warp13" is rated at 10kw at 80v probably due to being and enclosed design. That too came from a 2.5ton machine. 

You can probably get a lot more out of them for shorter periods. If you figure it only takes mabey 30 seconds to get upto speed then it should be fine.

Hope that helps!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Well my motor is rated at 12.4kw at 80v for one hour. I would say thats reasonably conservative and if you added some extra fan cooling it would work. Motor came out of a 2.5ton mitsubishi fork. So at a guess i'd say you need something similar. My "warp13" is rated at 10kw at 80v probably due to being and enclosed design. That too came from a 2.5ton machine. Hope that helps!


Thats great, just wish i knew a rule of thumb relating 1hr rating to 1min, could it be estimated as i wan't accelaration to be brisk, my greates draw back with my project is my location, and using a forklift motor would be brilliant as there are loads of scrappies near me,  its just trying to understand and identify which one would be the correct one.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> can anyone advise me on this motor? can't identify any specs,  need about 15kw continous and i'd like 50kw 1 min but thats flexible.
> 
> thanks
> 
> *http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/48v-DC-Electr...s_ET?hash=item3ca51450d7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14*


Hey! I'm watching the same motor and I've asked some questions too. Not got answers yet but will post here if I do.
Lets not get into too much of a bidding war if we both go for it!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey! I'm watching the same motor and I've asked some questions too. Not got answers yet but will post here if I do.
> Lets not get into too much of a bidding war if we both go for it!


haha, LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!


nah only kidding, won't be bidding on this one, as i am trying to get an insight into the forklift motors, and some knowledge before i jump in at the deep end.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> haha, LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!
> 
> 
> nah only kidding, won't be bidding on this one, as i am trying to get an insight into the forklift motors, and some knowledge before i jump in at the deep end.


If you are near lots of scrappies then if you find a suitable pair of motors I would be very interested in acquiring one.

I figure that our needs will be fairly similar though my calcs suggest I need more power, 14.5kW to reach 70mph.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> If you are near lots of scrappies then if you find a suitable pair of motors I would be very interested in acquiring one.
> 
> I figure that our needs will be fairly similar though my calcs suggest I need more power, 14.5kW to reach 70mph.


yeah no probs, you doing an MR2?? i am thinking of either a 3 wheeler, or a Citroen Saxo biased atm to the latter for practicallity, will have a gander around the local scrappies, and Autotrader aswell. normally have loads of forklifts in there.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Old friend of mine used to say : "French women yes. French cars no."


----------



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Old friend of mine used to say : "French women yes. French cars no."


yeah well, i've got 11 of them so, might aswell use one, and one has a blown engine so its ideal really, and i know saxo's really well


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> yeah no probs, you doing an MR2?? i am thinking of either a 3 wheeler, or a Citroen Saxo biased atm to the latter for practicallity, will have a gander around the local scrappies, and Autotrader aswell. normally have loads of forklifts in there.


Thank you.

The MR2 will weigh about 1250kg or a little more and I have to have the range to get to work and back and the speed as most of the drive is on the motorway hence I think I need a biggish motor that can maintain the high output for a long time without overheating.
It was the best car I found that fitted my requirements.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> can anyone advise me on this motor? can't identify any specs,  need about 15kw continous and i'd like 50kw 1 min but thats flexible.
> 
> thanks
> 
> *http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/48v-DC-Electr...s_ET?hash=item3ca51450d7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14*


I jsut got messaged back on Ebay about this. The motor is 10" long and 12" diameter with a female splined shaft.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Female spline is a killer. I guess the seller does'nt have a shaft to fit?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I jsut got messaged back on Ebay about this. The motor is 10" long and 12" diameter with a female splined shaft.


Hey guys,

I'd be careful with this one. Looks like the type of forklift motor which attached directly to the gearbox on a drive wheel unit. Although fine for its intended application, you may not be happy with it for an EV. The short motor length dictated by the turning radius on the fork truck necessitates a short motor core and comm, and often higher than normal pole count. And the nature of the fork truck application probably means a totally enclosed motor.

All of this tells me it is probably not what you should be looking at for an electric car conversion.

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, passing on this one.

The seller said he was using it for an ev tractor. He must have found a way to couple it. Wonder why he is selling it if it is as good as he want to make it sound.

Does sound like a direct drive wheel motor, Major. Maybe it would have been good as pair driving each back wheel of his tractor through the original wheel boxes.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

If i was to get a Forklift from my local scrappie, is it possible to use the controller if the Voltage is boosted from 48v to 72v? is there anything else i could use off it? 

thanks


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd look for the highest voltage forklift you can find. 36 and 48v ones are usually small capacity. I'd look for a 72 or 80v. Get everything you can. Cable , contactors , potbox , heatsink etc. From what i've read fork controllers don't work too well in an ev due to being low speed and use scrs.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

could anyone advise me on this motor,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ELPROM-EMS-24...s_ET?hash=item5882910af5&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

its in NI, and 14kw at 24v is that possible? and is it possible to up that to 72v? if so what affect would that have on the power? would it proportionally increase the power ie 42kw is that peak or continous? thanks

ah just found out this 

EC 14/2.4/26 Compound Excitation 048126000 14.00 24 VDC 
S2-2.5 191mm compound IP21B

ignore my foolishness,


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

gottdi said:


> What are you trying to build?
> 
> Pete


900kg
range: 100km 
top speed 80mph ( only need 60-65mph but want some left in the tank for emergencies(
0.32 drag co
1.82 frontal area
Front wheel drive
hatchback

http://media.photobucket.com/image/citroen%20saxo%20vtr/andybon123/Citroen%20saxo/P4010082.jpg

similar to that mine is just a darker blue,


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> and 14kw at 24v is that possible?


Hi Jordy,

Sounds too optimistic to me. That would be at least 600 amps. Possible peak power.



> and is it possible to up that to 72v?


Sure. You'd have to keep a close watch on speed and maybe advance brushes a bit.



> if so what affect would that have on the power? would it proportionally increase the power ie 42kw is that peak or continous?


That would increase power for the same current into the motor. 42kW would be possible, but for very short durations. 

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Compound wound is not a problem. The motor i'm using is compound. Its silly money imho. Your talking nearly 600amps at 24v to get 14kw! The forklift place i got my first motor from has about 6 or 7 72v and 80v machines scrap.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

gottdi said:


> I use a 9" GE and started with 72 volts and upgraded to 96. The controller I now use will do 700 amps and will go up to 156 volts. It pushes my VW to 80 mph easy and would be a good combo for your vehicle. You might look for a drive motor that is at least 8" and stay clear of the tiny 7" motors. The 7" motors could do the job but...........
> 
> 
> Pete
> ...


Ok, brilliant so i am looking for a 2500lbs lift weight ish, with an 8" Wheel drive motor. thanks a million and it is a great vehicle as i have 11 of them iirc atm, this one is the worse looking car of the two phases will be using the newer one with a rounder front,


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am looking at some forklifts on Ebay. I don't know if these are worth paying a visit to as they are a little distant so any comments or advise would be welcome.

1. Fork Lift No1
2. Fork Lift No2
3. Fork Lift No3
4. Fork Lift No4

Thank you.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I reckon you need to know the voltage of them all so i'd ask the sellers. Avoid any with motor problems.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

what about these guys:
http://www.comlec.co.uk/


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

Hi all,

This has probably been asked before, I think I remember seeing it in this very thread , but I can't find it anymore. 

I am going to see a forklift this evening. Guy is asking 800$CAD (740$US) for it. It's a sit downforklift,unknown weight capacity and it's built by caterpillar. The age is unknown, and the guy says it has been junked for "something related to electronics".

Electronics might very well be a catch all that is controller/ motor related, so I was wondering what you guys you look out for?

If I bring a car battery with me, can I try the motor with no load or will it hurt it? I also can't remember which motor poles to connect my battery to, if someone has this info handy...

Thanks!
(might be making some progress here!)


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Have a look at my videos a few pages ago on running a compound motor.


----------



## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Have a look at my videos a few pages ago on running a compound motor.


found here
starts post 680+


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## whelmed (Jun 29, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-NEW-Ya...53dd0aadb2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_670wt_1161

How's this for a EV motor? I know it's a tad bit small, but this is going in an austin mini.


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## whelmed (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah, I was thinking that about the end plate as well.

What I'm looking for is sorta odd, but I'm not finding it anywhere. I'd like to find 4x small DC motors which are around 5-15kW (continuous). If all goes well I'd like them to weigh 25-50lbs each, but there seems to be a big gap between small and large motors.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

whelmed said:


> How's this for a EV motor? I know it's a tad bit small, but this is going in an austin mini.


Hi whelmed,

GE makes a pretty good motor. It might work for you. This is for a pump. So 2 terminal, unidirectional. Right rotation for you? And it has a stub shaft for the pump coupling. Is it useable for you?

Regards,

major


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

It looks like the end casting hase face mount threaded holes, couldn't he just remove it and have the big lumps machined off (or ground off with an angle grinder and a few hours)? Also, it was my understanding that 2 terminal motors can still be reversed they just need a clever contactor arrangement to do it and won't be as efficient; am I missing somethign perculiar about this motor?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> also, it was my understanding that 2 terminal motors can still be reversed they just need a clever contactor arrangement to do it and won't be as efficient; am I missing somethign perculiar about this motor?


Hi vwd,

No. A 2 terminal wound field DC motor cannot be reversed by external means. To reverse the motor, one must reverse the polarity of either the armature or the field, but not both. On the 2 terminal motor, the field is hard wired to the armature (via the brush) inside and hence there is no way from the outside to change that polarity relationship.

You can take the motor apart and rewire it to reverse rotation. Or modify it to have 4 terminals, 2 for the armature (A1, A2) and 2 for the field (S1, S2). Then you'd have a reversible motor where you could use external means (contactors) to reverse polarity of the field.

Regards,

major


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Sorry, I didn't catch that it was a series motor, I must have been thinking smaller still and thinking of a permanent magnet motor. Oops.


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## azhillman (Jul 13, 2009)

whelmed said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-NEW-Ya...53dd0aadb2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_670wt_1161
> 
> How's this for a EV motor? I know it's a tad bit small, but this is going in an austin mini.


I was the winner of this auction, and have plans to use it in a mazda mx3, ford festiva, or a geo metro. I am hoping for a top speed of around 50 mph and a range of 20 miles using 72v. 

Side note..
My ruff calculations using name plate of 200amp for 15 min.
Time % amp
-----------------------------------
5 min 185% 255
15 min 145% 200
30 min 130% 180
1 hr 110% 150
contin 100% 138
------------------------------------
I also seen a motor like this one used in a 95 escort, not sure about reliabilty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNOyBbC-L7c


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

azhillman said:


> I was the winner of this auction, and have plans to use it in a mazda mx3, ford festiva, or a geo metro. I am hoping for a top speed of around 50 mph and a range of 20 miles using 72v.


Congrats on the win and welcome to the forum.

let us know how the cutting goes.


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## azhillman (Jul 13, 2009)

I whent to chicago to day and picked up the motor, I am going to start a build thread soon. But I thought I would show some picks of my new baby.
I plan on forced cooling and a altrax 7245 @ 84v on a 93 Festiva. A soon as i finish working on a freinds 93 Festiva I will start my Build.












It looks like it has temp sensors in the brushes and the windings. What do you guys think? If so I will need to figure out the calibration resistance.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

azhillman said:


> It looks like it has temp sensors in the brushes and the windings. What do you guys think?


Hi azhhi,

Wires embedded in the brushes are most likely Brush Wear Indicators (BWI). And thermal sensor in the field coil is most likely a click-on switch.

Regards,

major


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## azhillman (Jul 13, 2009)

click on, like when it hits 180c? to turn on a idiot light.
and the BWI, makes contact with the brush when worn down?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

azhillman said:


> click on, like when it hits 180c? to turn on a idiot light.


Well, yes, kinda. It should be calibrated to click on when the hottest part of the motor hits 180 C minus safety factor. So that may actually be 120 to 140 C in the field coil.



> and the BWI, makes contact with the brush when worn down?


Well, it's been a while since I worked with them. But back in the old days, it was just an insulated wire embedded in the brush at the right length which would short to the comm and give a + or - signal to a control box which would signal the operator. Not sure that is what they are. But unlikely you'd need to wire them up, unless you plan on 100,000 miles or more.

Regards,

major


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## azhillman (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks for the info!


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

A little off topic, but I can't find it elsewhere. What's a "Traction Amplifier" from a forklift? Looks to be a motor controller, but I'm not sure.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

green caveman said:


> A little off topic, but I can't find it elsewhere. What's a "Traction Amplifier" from a forklift? Looks to be a motor controller, but I'm not sure.


Never heard it called that before. But that would be my guess.

major


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

Taking my chance here.

Any idea how to connect this motor to make it run? It's got 5+1 connectors (5 screws, 1 plug)..

Thanks


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

gottdi said:


> 4 is most likely a thermal switch wire. Are number 1,5,6 and 3 the same size terminal and number 2 a smaller terminal?
> 
> You also need to clean the gunk from around those terminals to see if they case is marked for each terminal. Get some more photos and post them of the motor when you have done that. We gotta see before we can be sure.
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete,
Thanks for the help (again!) 

1: Yes 2 is a smaller terminal.

Here is a picture with a bit less gunk. We can now see A1, A2, S1, S2 on the big connectors while the small connector #2 has "Bwi"

any idea?

I also added the connectors for my pump motor because they are different. On that one I still have the 'terminal switch' , the "Bwi" but they other 4 are named A1, A2, F1 with E1 etched next to it, and F2 with E2 etched next to it.




Thanks!
Simon

edit: From this post by major , I understand the following:
my drive motor is Series wound and to test it , connect A1 and S1 then connect car battery to A2 and S2 
my pump motor is Sepex (Damn?) and to test it , connect A1 to F1 to battery and A2 to F2 to other battery terminal.

Correct?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bazou said:


> . We can now see A1, A2, S1, S2 on the big connectors while the small connector #2 has "Bwi"
> 
> any idea?


At another strange computer in a hotel lobby. Can't do much from here. But Bwi ? = brush wear indicator ?

major


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Looks like you have a shunt motor that is run with a SepEx controller. The A terminals are larger than the F terminals. That indicates a shunt motor. I am not sure what the e terminal would be. I hope someone else here with more knowledge can pipe in and explain that one.
> 
> Pete





major said:


> At another strange computer in a hotel lobby. Can't do much from here. But Bwi ? = brush wear indicator ?
> 
> major


Hey guys,
First, thanks again for helping me out. 

I understand that my drive motor seems to be series (a1,a2,s1, s2 connectors), which would make it an ideal EV motor. I will try it as soon as I get my hands on a spare car battery. My understanding is this is good news.

The pump motor, however, would be a shunt motor (a1,a2,f1,f2 ... with some obscure etchings about e1 and e2 next to f1 and f2) . From the few posts I've seen, people seem to say 'stay away from those-high-voltage controllers are hard to find for them'. Is this correct? I do have the control panel from the forklift, and I don't intend my build to be high voltage, so could I use the forklift's controller?

If so, and I know this is a lot to ask, can you guys help me with the controlller from the forklift? I have no iea how to connect it back-- had no camera when I pulled it. I've added a picture just in case. More picture can be found in this post

BWI as brush wear indicator : Could a connector indicate wear??

Thanks again,
Simon


Some links to shunt motors info:
Series/Sepex pro/con discussion
major's post about the difference between shunt and sepex motors
samborambo's wiki post about 'electric motors explained'


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bazou said:


> BWI as brush wear indicator : Could a connector indicate wear??


No, but what it is connected to inside the motor might be able to do that  Does it have wires inside the motor going up to the brushes? And it might have to have an external circuit to operate as a BWI.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finally got my "warp13" back to base and the rear housing off. The com bars are shiny. Like new. Bit disappointed its only a one brush setup but it sure is big!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Comm looks really short for a motor that size, how long is the brush area?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have a Ford Ranger conversion with a hyster GE 11 inch motor.
I got it used . Took it out of the forklift, it was real dirty. The only
thing I did was clean it and paint it. I am running it on 120 volts
115 ah batteries. I only have about 60 miles on the conversion.
Now here is my problem, today after about 8 miles it developed
a chirping from somewhere under the hood. It only does it while 
under power not while coasting. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
I could use some advice. Rememeber I did not replace brushes or bearings.
When it happens I can get out and feel for heat on motor but it is not too hot. The front shaft is not real hot. I have no cooling on this motor
of any kind. I took the cover off the motor and the brush area is hot
but not untouchable hot. When I turn the front shaft by hand I can hear
the brushes. The armature has no pitting that I can see there is some streaking. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Alvin


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Chirping might be a squeaking from something not fully bolted down and thus moving a bit, or a sound from metal being twisted. 

Is it a repetitive chirping that changes rate with motor speed? Or just one that happens each time you accellerate?

Have you checked all your motor mounts to be sure nothing moves during acceleration or load? Tough to do with only one person, might need someone else to help control it while you look at it.
________
Zoloft Lawyer


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes this chiping does increase with rpm's. It does have sort of a metalic sound. Yes it is hard to do alone. I put in on jack stands but it did not do it. Needs a load on it I guess.
Thanks 
Alvin


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Here are a picture I think thi may be real big.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

The picture is not too big, but it's too blurry for me to tell much about anything in it, other than it looks like a pic of the commutator section of the motor. I think I see a nick in one of the comm segments, but that shouldn't cause such a noise.

Since it's repetitive, it means something is rubbing somewhere as it spins. That could be in the motor, between the motor and transmission/clutch, inside the transmission (unlikely), or other places in the drivetrain.

If you put it on stands, run it very slowly as if you were going to creep up your driveway, and very gently apply the brakes just enough to engage them, does it make the noise? (this will put a load on the drivetrain). 

If so, does it sound like it is at the same RPM as the motor, or at some subdivision of it's speed? If the same RPM, it could be in the motor or in the adapter to the clutch/transmission, or something in the adapter plate that has shifted and is now rubbing against the adapter or plate when the motor is under load and has twisted in it's mounts due to something not being as stiff as it should be.

Another possibility is that if you have a belt driven from the motor's front shaft, that belt might be causing the noise if the motor is moving around under load. If so, remember that it's the motor mounting that would need fixing, not the belt. 
________
VAPORIZER REVIEW


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

The chirping is at low and high rpm .You can baby it a little and it will
stop. Does not happen all the time. I got back under the truck and slowly turned the shaft and I can hear the sound. I think it is from the brush
and armature contact. You can hear it not as loud as when driving 
but it is there. Sounds like a dirty connection. The white spot in the other pic was a reflection. Here is another pic you can see the wear on the 
armature. This is as clear as I can get it. Very tight in there.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Just to be sure, I'll repeat one of the questions that wasn't quite answered:
If so, does it sound like it is at the same RPM as the motor, or at some subdivision of it's speed?

You might be meaning that it is at the same RPM as the motor by your comment that you hear it when slowly turning the motor shaft, but I'm not certain.

I would think it unlikely that brush/armature contact would make a noise like that; but it's possible a bearing might.
________
Web Shows


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

When it starts to make the noise it seems to respond to the pedal.
You know as I press harder it gets louder. If I let off its goes away.
When I was under the truck turning the shaft by hand I can hear 
the noise as a little bit of a squeek at different spots during the rotation.
Maybe even a little resistance. While driving it I could keep it from 
doing it by not pressing the pedal too much if I heard it starting to
make the noise.
Thanks
Alvin


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I used my truck again today. After about 8 miles it started the squeeking
chirping sound . If I let off but not all the way it will quit. Press down starts again. It gets louder with more rpms. But I can baby it a little and it will go away completely. And I drove it on home. Still it does not feel very hot. I have a large voltage sag always with very much throttle. Is this 
normal? The amps never over 200.
Thanks for any help
Alvin


----------



## samsonx (Oct 21, 2009)

Hello, I am new to the EV scene but am ready to learn!

I picked up a used forklift motor from some guys on ebay for about $300, its about 8" and 95lbs. In the specs of the motor they said it could take 120v for a power rating of 37hp.. so maybe they've already advanced the motor? Small I know but should be strong enough to drive a small vehicle from what I've read in this thread. I am in the process of building a igbt motor controller for it, but was curious if "someone" (Hi Torque Electric)  could help me identify the motor.

Thanks so much! I look forward to learning a lot about ev conversions! 

Sam


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

samsonx said:


> but was curious if "someone" (Hi Torque Electric)  could help me identify the motor.


Hi Sam,

Looks like a traction motor from a Crown narrow isle truck. When I was involved with lift trucks, decades ago, Prestolite supplied 2 versions of this motor, one for 24V and one for 36. Physically the same. And the motor did not have the drive bearing. But your picture does seem to show a drive bearing in the motor. Who's making these motors now-a-days? Crown does in fact make some of their own motors for lift trucks.

Anyway, being a lift truck motor, good bet the brushes are set on neutral. Your seller's guess at high voltage hp was just that, a guess. It might put that out. Anyway, it looks like a pretty solid motor. From the picture of the comm, I'd say it is probably the 36, maybe a 48 volt fork motor.

Edit: Those terminals sort of look like the ones GE uses on motors. 

Good luck,

major


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since the brushes appear to be in line with the two bolts on the housing I'd say it is indeed neutral timed.


----------



## cdtomlinson (Apr 3, 2009)

So what is the procedure for advancing the brushes so it will work for a car? And what is the deal about running overvoltage? How much over can you run? I can't afford a fortune so have been looking at forklift motors for local driving and I hope to get about 50 miles round trip in the Ozarks hills of Southern MO.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would think that most motors would not have timing adjustments built in since they are usually built to run at a specific voltage. I think you usually have to drill new holes.


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## cdtomlinson (Apr 3, 2009)

gottdi said:


> The procedure is outlined at http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/
> 
> 
> Pete


I went there and it just had an offer to sell parts for an FB-4001 to set up the timing, it didn't appear to tell what you are looking for as you attempt to reset the timing.

Thanks for everybody's help. I hope to start sometime soon on my 94 Saturn and have something workable to get to work.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I think this is the link you need: http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/Step_by_step/Brush+Advancement/BRUSH+ADVANCE+PIC.GIF.html


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Anyone have a source of the splined sprockets for forklift motors? It would seem to be easier/cheaper to make the coupler if you buy the splined sprocket rather than have it machined.

Is there a better term to search for. I seem to have a 17 spline shaft on one end and 25 on the other (haven't yet measured the diameter, but it's about 3/4" and 1"). Are the splines standard or is the a need to describe the nature of the splines (depth, angle, etc.)?

Thanks,


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I could not find a source for that coupler. I went back to the forklift that the motor came from and got the part that it was attached to. Pinion 
gear is what it was. No charge. I called a new part co they wanted $800
a machine shop wanted $175 per hour. On this thread I think they talk about having the shaft turned down . When I was searching I would google splined shaft hub.
Hope that helps
Alvin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Todd was able to find a tractor PTO disc with the same inner spline:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/inhaler-electric-race-rod-project-31592p10.html
You might get lucky and be able to do the same.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Todd was able to find a tractor PTO disc with the same inner spline:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/inhaler-electric-race-rod-project-31592p10.html
> You might get lucky and be able to do the same.


If you find the shaft is the same as a tractor PTO spline then it might be worth looking at a Tractor PTO sprag clutch as the coupler. It may make shifting without a clutch easier. Need to check which wat the sprag goes but it should be the right way.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sprag-clutch-37784.html


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Is anyone familiar with the motor that may be in this forklift on Ebay?
Crown ESR 3020
I will have a look at it but I'm not completely sure I know what I am looking for.
If the motor is usable then I am tempted to buy it and break it for parts to sell on and hope the neighbours don't hate me too much.

Thank you.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Is anyone familiar with the motor that may be in this forklift on Ebay?
> Crown ESR 3020


Hi Wood,

My lift truck experience was before that one was born, but it looks pretty much the same as earlier models. And I speak of stateside, might be different over there.

So my guess would be 24 or 36 volt. You can easily tell from the chargers he says he has for it. It likely has a single traction motor. I think these were vertical mounted. Like a 7" reversible series wound. Would have 2 pump motors, both unidirectional. Maybe a 5 to 6 inch PM or compound aux/power steer motor (like about 1 hp continuous rate). And a 6 or 7 inch hoist pump motor, like 5 to 10 hp rated for 5 minutes or 20% DC.

Controller is unknown to me, but not likely to be of use except at rated voltage. Might have some useable contactors, however they would have traction battery voltage rated coils.

If you're looking for a propulsion motor for a car conversion, you'd likely have better luck looking at large sit-down rider (counterbalance) type trucks.

Regards,

major

(edit) I think the traction motor looks like the one pictured in post # 819.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tag shows 48 volts.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Tag shows 48 volts.


Yeah, it does. Photos didn't all load for me first time. Up thru the 80's, Crown didn't make trucks higher than 36 volts. Wasn't sure when they started. And UK always seemed to have higher voltage trucks than the states. And I don't know if UK and US shared designs, but they likely did.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

What makes a motor 20% duty rather than 100 % ?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys, I'm just about to go and have a look at it.

It only really interested me because it is about a mile away and, if it came to it, I could push it home (almost)! 
I figured if it had a usable motor, and I broke up the rest, it would recover most of the money back. It may also yield some other useful odds and ends.

I am still planning on visiting a truck breaker who will have a bigger range of motors though if this is too puny.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

alvin said:


> What makes a motor 20% duty rather than 100 % ?


Hi alvin,

It is the Duty Cycle (DC). And that is how motors are rated for certain applications. Like the hoist pump motor. It cannot run at full load continuously (100% DC). The mast only goes so far up. So it is a sure bet the motor will see periods of off time and therefore cool down. Such motor can carry a higher rating when rated on a short time-on DC rather than rated on a continuous basis.

Fork pump motors would be rated on a 20% DC. One minute on, 4 minutes off, repeated over and over until motor temperature stabilized at the insulation limits. This was referred to as a 5 minute base 20% DC. The rating for the 20% could be like double the 100% rating. 

Fork truck traction motors on the other hand could be run for longer periods and were typically rated one hour. Here the rating procedure would start with a normal temperature motor and run at load for 60 minutes, shut down and temperature measurements taken.

Regards,

major


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Just what is it that makes them rated for only 20% internally?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

alvin said:


> Just what is it that makes them rated for only 20% internally?


Nothing, the same motor will also have a 100% rating. Just that the 100% rating will be a smaller number than the 20% rating.

It is the application which determines the DC, not the motor. However if the motor designer knows the application DC requirements, there are some things he may choose to do differently inside the motor. Brushes come to mind. They usually heat up faster at high currents. So a 20% DC motor designed for such may have larger brushes or even a longer commutator than a similar motor in 100% rated applications.

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

quick question about my compound motor. Didnt want to start another thread. If i'm running it from a pwm controller with a seperate supply for the shunt windings , would i be in danger of something nasty when i lift off the pedal with the shunt winding still energised? ie would the armature try and generate and fight with the series winding etc? Ultimatly i want to use this setup for regen but that won't be for a while.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here are some photos.

Top view.









The drive motor is only 8" diameter.

































The pump motor is 8.5" diameter.



































What was 'scary' looking at the truck was that there was no cover over the battery pack and a long handled spanner was sitting on top of the cells between the terminals!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> If i'm running it from a pwm controller with a seperate supply for the shunt windings , would i be in danger of something nasty when i lift off the pedal with the shunt winding still energised? ie would the armature try and generate and fight with the series winding etc?


Hi jack,

I don't see a problem like that. It'd be similar to running a PM motor with PWM. A lot of guys do that with no issues. And a few guys, like Mike, have used those aircraft starter/generators in set-ups like this with no reported problems.

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi jack,
> 
> I don't see a problem like that. It'd be similar to running a PM motor with PWM. A lot of guys do that with no issues. And a few guys, like Mike, have used those aircraft starter/generators in set-ups like this with no reported problems.
> 
> ...


I guess the other issue would only be current consumption generating a field in the shunt coils for no reason. How about a high pedal cut off so that there is no wasted energy when not energising the controller?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Major just wanted to be sure. woodsmith i will have a micro switch on the throttle body so it kills the shunt field at zero throttle was just worried! That forklift looks great. Get it


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> That forklift looks great. Get it


Great for you or for me?

I was thinking the drive motor was a bit small and the pump motor will only have a female shaft.

Could I still run either motor at 120-160 volts and achieve 70mph (4200 rpm) for 30 minutes?

I was really looking for an 11" motor to give me that high speed cruising ability without over loading the motor or drawing too many amps.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Great for me of course just kidding. Would probably be more suited to a smaller vehicle in a less demanding application but i still would get it to have "in stock" for future as its so cheap and so near.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Great for me of course just kidding. Would probably be more suited to a smaller vehicle in a less demanding application but i still would get it to have "in stock" for future as its so cheap and so near.


Just to have in stock? I'm not made of money.

Seriously though, is my thinking correct in looking for an 11" over, say, an 8" or 9" motor for high speed cruising?




I have just bought this pair of motors from Ebay to make something small from. Thinking of a compact tractor.....


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Wood,

I noted that you expressed an interest in a 13" motor the other day, and I just want to make sure that you've checked all the appropriate clearances to the transaxle case & driveshafts from the cenerline of the motor shaft. It would be a shame to find out the darn thing doesn't fit alongside the MR2 mechanicals. Maybe you should make a cardboard motor mock-up?

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

electromet said:


> Wood,
> 
> I noted that you expressed an interest in a 13" motor the other day, and I just want to make sure that you've checked all the appropriate clearances to the transaxle case & driveshafts from the cenerline of the motor shaft. It would be a shame to find out the darn thing doesn't fit alongside the MR2 mechanicals. Maybe you should make a cardboard motor mock-up?
> 
> Mike


Yebbut, if I could use a really big motor I probably would, but it would also be a waste of motor and weight!
The biggest I can get in is an 11" motor but I do have to be careful as it has to be 11" and not 11 and a bit. I only have a measured 1/8" clearance to the flange on the CV joint.

If I find it gets a touch too close I will machine a little off the CV flange, there is about 3/8" of flange that doesn't do much.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

I just wanted to make sure you did your homework. It looks like you're right on top of things.

Mike


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## scarab (Jul 3, 2008)

the availability of second hand motors in western australia is zero.
what is the difference between say a 25 Kw generator and an AC motor of a similar size?
There are numerous second hand petrol/gasoline/ diesel generators up for auction from old mine sites etc.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> J...Seriously though, is my thinking correct in looking for an 11" over, say, an 8" or 9" motor for high speed cruising?


Nah... Plenty of people blast down the highway just fine with 9" WarPs, ADCs, Kostovs, etc... An 11" motor is going to have an awfully low top RPM limit without getting the commutator reinforced with Kevlar banding, etc... 8" and 9" motors are usually a better fit for most vehicles. That's just my personal observation/opinion, not really based on any extensive engineering analysis; worth price paid.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Nah... Plenty of people blast down the highway just fine with 9" WarPs, ADCs, Kostovs, etc... An 11" motor is going to have an awfully low top RPM limit without getting the commutator reinforced with Kevlar banding, etc... 8" and 9" motors are usually a better fit for most vehicles. That's just my personal observation/opinion, not really based on any extensive engineering analysis; worth price paid.


Hi, my donor vehicle i estimate a kerb weight of 1000kg with driver and fully converted, i am thinking of using a Kostov 11" 192V as its only $500 more expensive than the 9" 144v. would it be best to stick with the 9" as its half the weight of the 11" (41kg comparerd with 81kg)
thanks


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Nah... Plenty of people blast down the highway just fine with 9" WarPs, ADCs, Kostovs, etc... An 11" motor is going to have an awfully low top RPM limit without getting the commutator reinforced with Kevlar banding, etc... 8" and 9" motors are usually a better fit for most vehicles. That's just my personal observation/opinion, not really based on any extensive engineering analysis; worth price paid.


With the large amount of torque the 11" motor puts out would one need high RPM? The 11" 250v Kostov is supposed to top out at 5600 RPM.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well my 11.5" forklift motor pulled the bmw up a hell of a hill in 4th with two 5 year old batteries and a boot full of tools! Torque it has


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## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Well my 11.5" forklift motor pulled the bmw up a hell of a hill in 4th with two 5 year old batteries and a boot full of tools! Torque it has


What kind of amp draw do you have when you do that?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Peaked at 400 motor amps.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

paker said:


> With the large amount of torque the 11" motor puts out would one need high RPM? The 11" 250v Kostov is supposed to top out at 5600 RPM.


I suppose the point here would be that an 11" Kostov would pull well right up to 5600 and have the 'grunt' to pull in a higher gear for a very high top speed. 

An 11" motor out of a fork truck breaker's yard, on the other hand, may well destroy itself before it gets to a high speed so the car will be using a lot of motor torque to reach a nominally high speed using higher gears.

I suppose I will have to see what I can find and how much it weighs and how much it costs.

As I will be going for a junk yard find I reckon either way I will have to modify and renovate the motor anyway so that cost will have to be factored in regardless of size.

I guess the question is really about the effectiveness of an off the (junk yard's) shelf ex fork truck motor of either size.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just in terms of motor revs i got my rpm sender sorted today and had the motor upto 1500rpm at 24v running on pure series field.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> Hi, my donor vehicle i estimate a kerb weight of 1000kg with driver and fully converted, i am thinking of using a Kostov 11" 192V as its only $500 more expensive than the 9" 144v. would it be best to stick with the 9" as its half the weight of the 11" (41kg comparerd with 81kg)
> thanks


Depends what you want to do with your conversion... Does the 11" Kostov spank its 9" sibling in peak and continuous power? Sure it does. Is that relevant or important if you are going to use your EV for commuting to work some 20 km away? Probably not.

I have extensive experience designing high power electronics, not in picking out motors for EVs... so, take it with a grain o' salt.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

paker said:


> With the large amount of torque the 11" motor puts out would one need high RPM?


Nope. More torque means you can shift to a higher gear earlier. But keep in mind that motor losses are mainly from I^2R, so a smaller motor - within reason! - turning at a higher RPM and lower amps will have less losses than a larger motor turning at lower RPM and higher amps (delivering the same amount of power). For example (not realistic, but instructive), let's say the 9" motor has a field resistance of 0.1 ohm and it needs 300 motor amps at 100 volts to propel a vehicle at 70 mph. The field loss will be 300 * 300 * 0.1, or 9000W (told you it wasn't realistic). Now let's say the 11" motor has a field resistance of 0.075 ohms but requires 400A at 75V? The field losses here are 400 * 400 * 0.08, or 12,000W.

Now, on the flip side, the closer you run a drive train to 1:1 the lower the overall mechanical losses, so the lower rpm motor will have the advantage in that aspect. Then there is the fact that controllers are happiest when operating at 50% duty cycle, because that spreads the losses evenly between switch and freewheeling diode... Lots of factors go into whether a larger/slower motor is better than a smaller/faster motor.




paker said:


> The 11" 250v Kostov is supposed to top out at 5600 RPM.


Sure, but you shouldn't run motors at their maximum RPM if you want them to last a long time. I mean, it's not like at 5599 RPM the motor can run all day but at 5601 RPM it will fling itself to pieces.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Tesseract, you have a good point there.

When I go looking for my motor at the breakers they will probably have a selection all at about the same price.
I'm still unclear in my head about lighter 9" running faster to give me 70mph for half an hour or heavier 11" running slower to give the same result.
It would seem that the 9" would have less losses and less weight and run at a higher rpm with more efficiency?
I take it I should also be looking for a 72volt motor more then a 48volt motor to run on a pack that could be in the 120v-160v range?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Tesseract, you have a good point there.


Erf... Well, maybe, but I wasn't really arguing one way or the other, rather, I was just trying to get people to think a little differently than to simply assume that the larger the diameter/size of the motor the better performing their EV will be.




Woodsmith said:


> I'm still unclear in my head about lighter 9" running faster to give me 70mph for half an hour or heavier 11" running slower to give the same result.


Okay, I'll make my example less abstract. Consider the performance graphs of the WarP 9 vs. the WarP 11 at a specific power output of, say, 30hp and 72V:

The WarP 9 needs ~325A to spin at 2200 rpm and deliver ~66 ft-lbs of torque.

The WarP 11 needs ~360A to spin at 1500 rpm and deliver 100 ft-lbs of torque.

Notice how the WarP 9 actually needs less amps to deliver the same power as the WarP 11?

Is this always true? No, of course not. It's just an example, but it happens to be of two very popular motors 




Woodsmith said:


> I take it I should also be looking for a 72volt motor more then a 48volt motor to run on a pack that could be in the 120v-160v range?


Maybe, maybe not. A motor that is specifically wound for a higher voltage (e.g. Kostov) will have more turns in its field, and require less amps, for a given power output than one that is wound for a lower voltage but with advanced brush timing (e.g. - WarP). Whether the lower amps translates into lower losses, though, depends on a lot of other factors. You really can't make any blanket statements, was more my point (and also that I like to play devil's advocate).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Maybe, maybe not. A motor that is specifically wound for a higher voltage (e.g. Kostov) will have more turns in its field, and require less amps, for a given power output than one that is wound for a lower voltage but with advanced brush timing (e.g. - WarP). Whether the lower amps translates into lower losses, though, depends on a lot of other factors. You really can't make any blanket statements, was more my point (and also that I like to play devil's advocate).


To me that says that maybe a higher voltage rating means less advance needed on the brushes and less amps for the same output. That may equate to less to consider and give the option of running it with no advance and at lower pack voltage to begin with and then advance it later as a bigger pack (and bigger understanding) is acqured perhaps.

Still a lot of unknowns to take into account when there are actual motors to look at but I think it gives me a clearer understanding of what to look for, probably still whatever I can afford and then go with it.

Thanks.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> at a specific power output of, say, 30hp and 72V:
> 
> The WarP 9 needs ~325A to spin at 2200 rpm and deliver ~66 ft-lbs of torque.
> 
> ...


Hi Tess,

In your example, both performance graphs show 87% efficiency (+/- 1%) at respective 30 HP points. How can this be  Your example just shows that these motor performance graphs suck. We've seen this before in other threads using the 9 inch curve, IIRC. These graphs give you a good ballpark as to actual motor performance, but fall way short in accuracy for doing comparisons.

I've been busy and can't take the time now to elaborate on some of this motor theory. But generally speaking, a larger motor give you more torque, not necessarily more torque per amp. That depends on the design (winding). And pound for pound, the large motor should give you higher efficiency for equal power outputs near the one hour rated loads. But motor designs vary. Some great 9 inchers can do better than crappy 11s.

More from me later 

major


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> ... Your example just shows that these motor performance graphs suck....




Well, I was only trying to argue against the notion that an 11" motor is _always better_ than a 9" motor. I tried to not use an actual example the first time but, well.. read the last few messages to see why I might have resorted to using the WarP 9 and 11...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> But generally speaking, a larger motor give you more torque, not necessarily more torque per amp. That depends on the design (winding). And pound for pound, the large motor should give you higher efficiency for equal power outputs near the one hour rated loads. But motor designs vary. Some great 9 inchers can do better than crappy 11s.
> 
> major


This is the big unknown for me as I will be just selecting from a breakers yard shelf. I wouldn't know if the motor was crappy or not regardless of size or condition. I can't figure any way to find out just by looking yet nor do I know which brands, makes or model numbers to avoid as there are probably too many to consider. It will be a bit of pot luck I guess, and applying what I have gathered from the forum.


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## Nigel Loller (Nov 29, 2009)

Hi 
I am new to this forum but have read the entire thread!!! I am going to convert my donar MGF and have been trying to identify the three motors in an 80v Linde forklift..For anyone with problems in this area this is a very useful site that has hundreds of motors used by all the known makes of forklift inc Pump,Traction and steering! 
http://www.kelvin.it/engl/attivita/attivita_vendmot.htm
The pump motor I have access to is 13.5 kw at 80volts. Dimensions are 250mm diameter and 300 long not including fan ,which would appear to be about half the power of the warp 9...would I be better off finding a lower voltage motor ,say 36/48 and running it at 120v? Also possible is that it's compound wound as the two main feed wires exit 'thro the winding case and not one from the comm area.If it turns out to be compound is it worth pursuing a viable controller? The two 80v traction motors are series wound but only (continually) rated at 5kw. All feedback welcome


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Nigel Loller said:


> Hi
> I am new to this forum but have read the entire thread!!! I am going to convert my donar MGF and have been trying to identify the three motors in an 80v Linde forklift..For anyone with problems in this area this is a very useful site that has hundreds of motors used by all the known makes of forklift inc Pump,Traction and steering!
> http://www.kelvin.it/engl/attivita/attivita_vendmot.htm
> The pump motor I have access to is 13.5 kw at 80volts. Dimensions are 250mm diameter and 300 long not including fan ,which would appear to be about half the power of the warp 9...would I be better off finding a lower voltage motor ,say 36/48 and running it at 120v? Also possible is that it's compound wound as the two main feed wires exit 'thro the winding case and not one from the comm area.If it turns out to be compound is it worth pursuing a viable controller? The two 80v traction motors are series wound but only (continually) rated at 5kw. All feedback welcome


Hi Nigel,

Some pictures of the motors and nameplates would help. It is difficult to give advice blindly, but what the heck, I'll just throw it out here. Fork lift trucks use a wide variety of motors and motor systems. Lot of them use a single traction motor. Sounds like your 80V truck uses dual traction motors. If so, each could be about half size of the motor for a single drive.

Also, I think you have the 13 kW motor at 15% (for the lift pump). That is the duty cycle. Meaning it is rated for 15% time on out of a 100% DC, likely on a 1 to 5 minute time base. It is basically an overload rated motor because the forks can only go so high, and then the truck travels and lowers before it lifts again. So your 13 Kw 15% motor may be only rated for 5 or 6 kW on a one hour continuous time base, as are traction motors. Because you can drive the truck a long distance without giving the motor a rest.

I try hard not to tell people a certain motor will work for them. Too many unknowns from my vantage point here in Ohio. I do let people know when I think there is a problem. See, I don't even know what you mean by MGF, nor what your performance expectations might be.

I suspect Linde uses well built motors and these could work well for you. Running at higher voltage means you need to watch commutation and advance the brushes if you are into arcing. Also, perhaps active cooling could be needed. And always, you need to get a motor you can control. So, unless you're willing to do a lot of home work or have an uncle who is an EE, stick with series motors which will work with available "good quality" controllers.

How long did it take you to read this thread? Quite amazing the number of posts and views. I wonder if Jim H had any idea how far this would go. 

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm hoping, Major, that the MGF is the MG F sports car so beloved by hairdressers in the UK last decade.
It would be an interesting conversion.


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## Nigel Loller (Nov 29, 2009)

HA Ha Woodsmith
Whats wrong with Hairdressers choice of car ...Lots of good things re MG F 
1 very cheap £200 for one in excellent condition
2 electric power steering as standard
3 mid mounted IC rubbish...only lasts for 35000miles or so then head gasket failure,liners,head warps etc all due to plumbing 
4 both ends free to fit batteries
5 suspension height is adjustable (form of Hydroelastic)
6 Brake disks on all four wheels
7 only 1100 kilo weight inc batteries 
8 some of them ( not mine ) come in British Racing Green ,which as you know still is the best colour for a convertible!!!
How many do you want?
Major,sorry I seem to have replied to you directly which may be unethical?
Nigel


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Nigel Loller said:


> Major,sorry I seem to have replied to you directly which may be unethical?


No apology necessary, Nigel. I don't mind PMs (Personal Messages). That is their function. Just that if I'm going to take the time to express my opinions on the subject and there is nothing confidential about it, I'd rather put it out publicly so maybe others can benefit. And did you see my response PM wrt size 

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Any thoughts on this motor on Ebay?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330383247030&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
It is a drive motor for a Toyota 6FBRE16 Fork truck.

It is open to offers and only attracted my attention as it would put a Toyota motor in my Toyota MR2. The seller also has a new pump motor fo the same truck.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jeez could the guy have taken a worse photo? Only concern i'd have is its 48v but i'm no expert. Bit expensive too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think he was trying to show off the brake assembly to justify the price a bit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cant see the shaft, or the brushes. Asking price is way high.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've sent a message asking for more details, just out of curiosity.
If I don't win my (it's mine ya hear? All mine!) TransWarP9 then I may think about it and put an offer in if cost wise I can get it the same as one from a breaker plus reconditioning.


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## Nigel Loller (Nov 29, 2009)

Voltage is right,price is X5,very marginal on kw


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## janee (Dec 5, 2009)

I think you like This one car. This is a electric car -> (http://car-n-car.com/2009/12/first-drive-peugeot-ion) and i like this.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

janee said:


> I think you like This one car. This is a electric car -> (http://car-n-car.com/2009/12/first-drive-peugeot-ion) and i like this.


Yeah that's a Mitsu iMiev rebranded, and doesn't belong in this thread. Spam bot?


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## janee (Dec 5, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah that's a Mitsu iMiev rebranded, and doesn't belong in this thread. Spam bot?


you think im spam.... but you think wrong.. im not a spammer.... so you think this is a true so delete my post and save your forum......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, you're not a spam bot. Just try to post in the appropriate thread. Your post has nothing to do with using a forklift motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think a spambot.
Wrong forum and not a good first post.

Janee, if you are a real person interested in EVs you could post in chat and tell us a little about yourself and your interests.

Ok, we now know you like that car. Are you building a car? Converting one? Planning on getting one?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I just found this forktruck on Ebay and it is about to end soon.
How does it look to you guys?
Saxby VR20
It says 48V and 640amps, that's about 30kw?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

From reading the ad i'd say its a 48v 640ah battery. Motors look ok but i'm no expert.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jack.

I just spoke to the seller and he says the drive motor is about 10". Probably 9", if that, looking at the photos but there is nothing to gauge it against.
It does look very clean at least.

If it doesn't sell then I have made arrangements to see it Tuesday evening. The chap says he looked at an electric car that had the same size motor in it and had considered doing a conversion himself but lack of space lead to needing to sell it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Any thoughts on this motor on Ebay?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330383247030&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> It is a drive motor for a Toyota 6FBRE16 Fork truck.
> 
> ...


Just got an email back from the seller.

*WITHOUT brake disc and pad assy*

*Part No 14310/12400/71C 
W 20cm** H 23cm** L 29cm*
*Volts 48v *
*Rating 5 min *
*Output 8kw*
*180000-2443*
*4C302 *
















*WITH brake disc and pad assy*

*Part number 14110-12402-71 
W 34cm **H 34cm **L 40cm*
*Volts 48v *
*Rating 60min *
*Output 4.3kw*
*serial No b 6 9 10057*


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks as if the one without the brake doesn't have an output shaft.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd skip that to be honest. 8kw for 5 minutes is no use. You need some serious power for the motorway. If you've no luck by the new year let me know as I have my pick of motors from the place i got mine.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Looks as if the one without the brake doesn't have an output shaft.





jackbauer said:


> I'd skip that to be honest. 8kw for 5 minutes is no use. You need some serious power for the motorway. If you've no luck by the new year let me know as I have my pick of motors from the place i got mine.


That's the pump motor I assume, with a female shaft and short cycle duration.

The drive motor has a 60min duty but only 4.5kw.

Costly too so I will skip it.

I plan to do an 600 mile round trip visiting friends and relatives at the weekend, playing Santa, and enroute I will be visiting a fork truck breaker and rummaging through their stock of motors to find a suitable one. I will have my credit card!

I am also picking up some other bits so I may have a second build thread on the go.
Think golf cart motor, Lada Niva transfer box and a Curtis 1214 controller.


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## Nigel Loller (Nov 29, 2009)

Hi Everyone
I am in contact with an e-bay seller who has Big 12v motor 12kw (12v 1000amps) built for bowthruster.He says its continuously rated for that amperage but I have one in my boat that has a maximum duty of 30seconds every 5mins!!
I reckon a motor with 12kw at 12 volts would go really well at 48volts eh?


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## Michael11 (Dec 9, 2009)

Another new guy here... 
I am interested in starting a project, and I have access to a Allis Chalmers forklift. We bought a new folklift at work, and I can take what I want off of this unit before it is scrapped.
I have the parts manual here too. I tried looking up the motor specs online by part number, but couldn't find any info.
Here is a link to some pics. I was able to stick the camera under it and get a shot of the steering motor.
Anyway, if anyone can tell me if any of these parts might be conversion friendly please let me know!!!!
I know there isn't alot to go by... but I thought I'd ask!1
Thanks!!
http://electriccarprojectnumber1.blogspot.com/2009/12/forklift-for-parts.html


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi Michael, welcome to the forum.

The forklift is only 36 volts so I think your options for over volting the motor is going to be a little limited.

Can you get the cover off and get a photo of the actual drive motor and possibly the data plate on the side of it?

You would also want the measurements of the motor, diameter, length and the length of the commutator brushes, ie the length of the copper com bars. If you can get a photo of the com bars that would be good too. You may need to remove the metal mesh screen from it to see the com.

Also do likewise for the main pump motor. They are less useful as they generally have a female shaft making conversion much more comlicated and difficult.

I would suggest that if it is there and it is 'free' it would be worth the work to check it out.

If the motor isn't that useful you could always break the forklift and sell the parts on Ebay to fund a motor.
Just tell the boss that you want both motors, the pumps, valves, forks, lift gear...
He can scrap the batteries and the counterweight, actually you can scrap the dead weight.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think the 600 volt charger is going to do much for you, unless you have access to 600 volts, and I'd guess the steering motor will be too small. Need to get to the drive motor.


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## Michael11 (Dec 9, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hi Michael, welcome to the forum.
> 
> The forklift is only 36 volts so I think your options for over volting the motor is going to be a little limited.
> 
> ...





JRP3 said:


> I don't think the 600 volt charger is going to do much for you, unless you have access to 600 volts, and I'd guess the steering motor will be too small. Need to get to the drive motor.


Thanks for the replies folks. I thought the 36v might be an issue. However my donor car would be a Ford Festiva, and 
I am looking for a top speed of about 5o kph, and range can be low. 8-10 miles.
Do you think this might be possible from this lfts internals? (I know its hard to say without seeing the motors specs.) Just wondering if it might be at all possible.
Thanks Again.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Michael11 said:


> Thanks for the replies folks. I thought the 36v might be an issue. However my donor car would be a Ford Festiva, and
> I am looking for a top speed of about 5o kph, and range can be low. 8-10 miles.
> Do you think this might be possible from this lfts internals? (I know its hard to say without seeing the motors specs.) Just wondering if it might be at all possible.
> Thanks Again.


For such short range and low speed I would think that it is more realistic then not.

I don't know the car type but you may be able to find a similar size car in the garage to see what range and speed they can have and what is needed to get what you want.

SimonRaffety on here has a Land Rover Freelander that is doing similar range and speed and running off batteries scrounged from a junk yard, £3 to buy and £2 to sell back so only £1 a battery!


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## larry444l3 (Dec 11, 2009)

hello everyone .. just regestered here and hope to get some great advice ....i am new to wanting to build an EV .. i have friends that have salvage yards .. so i have my pick of the vehicels .. and i have friends in the forklift bussiness ..i am currently looking at 2 yale forklifts with GE drive motors and would like to know what you think and if they will work in an ev ... the drive motors have this ID on them ...
GE part number 8504656....... AU1640
DC 36/48 
ser. number XP-9-2447-XP
model number 5bt1366b164a
330 A
class H
rpm 1000

i know that i would like to have about 3000-4000 rpm 
but i do have a gear reduction i could run to get it up to 3000 rpm if i need to .. any help or advice on this matter would be great ... 
like i say i am new to this so .... tell me what you think thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From the specs you've given I'd say they have potential. Do you know the dimensions and weight?


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## Nigel Loller (Nov 29, 2009)

Look on my post (page 88 ithink) there is a link to site where you can identify your particular motor with all the specs you need to make a decision whether or not it is powerful enough and if you can control it !


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## Michael11 (Dec 9, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> For such short range and low speed I would think that it is more realistic then not.
> 
> I don't know the car type but you may be able to find a similar size car in the garage to see what range and speed they can have and what is needed to get what you want.
> 
> SimonRaffety on here has a Land Rover Freelander that is doing similar range and speed and running off batteries scrounged from a junk yard, £3 to buy and £2 to sell back so only £1 a battery!


This car was also called a Kia Pride, and a Mazda 121. Basically it is a very small econobox


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi All!

Any idea if this motor is good enough for a small car? Don't worry about the shaft i can make up a new shaft. I`m planing for around 144V+.

Thank Albano


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

15% duty cycle.... 
________
SuckYourBalls live


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Amberwolf said:


> 15% duty cycle....


So you say it no good, then what motor is good?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> So you say it no good, then what motor is good?


Hi albano,

This is a pump motor and therefore has a 15% duty cycle rating on the nameplate of 360 amps. That does not mean it is unsuitable for other use. It likely could be rated at a lower current for one hour, maybe 200 amps. 

From the size and appearance in the photos, I'd say it could do well in a small car. The nameplate indicates an 8000 RPM max. That's nice. But at 144V as you mention, you can easily exceed that, depending on the load. 96V might be a better choice.

Regards,

major


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

major said:


> Hi albano,
> 
> This is a pump motor and therefore has a 15% duty cycle rating on the nameplate of 360 amps. That does not mean it is unsuitable for other use. It likely could be rated at a lower current for one hour, maybe 200 amps.
> 
> ...


Thank for the info Major.

I have 8x of these motor and if i use 2x of these motor on a light vehicle at around 850kg, will it be good for drag racing. As for drag racing you only need to do just a few second.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Hello people,
well I'm trowing another question to the motor experts.
As per the pictures, it's a nice one but, I'm confuse about the quantity of brushes used in this motor.
The label indicate wemoco 150-47-0018-0 (a division of Warfield Electric, also manufacturers of the Warps)), 76V, no rpms, rotation is CCW facing the motor front, diameter is 12" and some specs supplied by the manufacturer are 12hp, 350 amps, 1200 rpm but I think this are inconclusive. Shipping weight was 176Lb.
This motor seems that It was new or freshly refurbished, showing some surface rust on the tail shaft.
Splined 13 front shaft, indicating that maybe was produced for a pump motor.
Of course, the first thing I did was to open it to investigate it's quality internal components.

PICTURES (thumbnails)




The brushes are 13mm x 18mm each, and the commutator is 2" tall.
In the way the brushes assembly is, I do not think I will be able to do a field advance, the heavy motor windings are attached below and I do not think it's any play at all.
Terminal connections are marked as A1-A2 and S1-S2.
I experimented and tested run the motor with 24 VDC at S1 (-) A2 (+), A1 and S2 are jumped together, but I'm unsure about it. Reversing the power leads did not reverse the rotation.
I do not know if this is a series wound or other configuration. The impedance that I read in each pair of terminals, A1-A2 and S1-S2, are very low, almos a short for few 1/10th of an ohm. 
Now, any savy words about this configurations and /or any thoughts that will help me configuring it properly?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mrbigh said:


> I do not know if this is a series wound or other configuration.


Hi mrbigh,

Cool. An 8 pole motor. Don't see many of those.

Looks like a good machine to me. I think it is series wound. Probably a traction motor, not pump because it is reversible. Connect A2 to S1 for one direction and A2 to S2 for opposite rotation.

Higher pole counts are used for slower speed designs. 1200 RPM at 12 hp is about half speed as compared to the usual 4 pole motor. Also the 8 brush sets gives you higher current capacity in that area.

Could be a good EV motor. May prove to be on the heavy side for the power rating compared to the 4 pole guys. And I can't see from the photos, but may be totally enclosed. Most EV motors are ventilated with shaft mounted fans. This one might be difficult to cool further derating it.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet looking motor, but with only 1200 RPM at 72 volts I'm not sure you'll get enough speed out of it for practical use.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Major, thank you for your support.
Yes, it is not vented with the exception of the tail cover that has some wide openings. I could force vent the armature when the moment is right.
About the 1200rps, really I'm unsure. Upon the 24vdc test, it run fast an smooth, so far I'm unable to supply higher voltages at the required higher current with out disabling other necessary equipment.
I will have to diggup a console mounted Monarch tachometer for speed reading, next week task.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mrbigh said:


> About the 1200rps, really I'm unsure. Upon the 24vdc test, it run fast an smooth, so far I'm unable to supply higher voltages at the required higher current with out disabling other necessary equipment.


Hey mrbigh,

I assume you're testing at no load. Meaning nothing attached to the shaft. This is a series motor. Do NOT increase voltage when testing at no load. My recommendation is 12 volts, max. Using higher voltage you risk overspeed and damage to the motor.

The rated voltage for that only applies when it is loaded.

The only way to test the motor at "higher current" is to load it. This takes a mechanical load on the shaft, like a brake or dynamometer.

Regards,

major


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Aloha, all. I threw away 4 or 5 electric forklift standup orderpickers before I became interested in EV Motorcycles. I am starting a build of my EV trike ... trike so it will accomodate my wheelchair. (see the photo). I salvaged 4 motors from a couple forklifts and all are 24v. See the photos.. one blue one probably is no good at all as it is a steering motor. The next one is the hydraulic pump motor and the last one is the Yale drive motor. The Drive motor seems massive @80# and probably too big for my EV motorcycle, but what about the "ohio" pump motor? 
I am looking for 65mph ability, 50 mph cruising and a 35 mile range using 72v Controller and Lipo4 batteries. Advice? thanks
Francis


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

spdas said:


> The Drive motor seems massive @80# and probably too big for my EV motorcycle, but what about the "ohio" pump motor?
> I am looking for 65mph ability, 50 mph cruising and a 35 mile range using 72v Controller and Lipo4 batteries. Advice?


Hi Francis,

I'd go with the drive motor. If it is really only 80 lbs, it might not be big enough to meet your objectives. The big pump motor might be a candidate, but take the pump off and look at the shaft. And I didn't know Ohio made wound field motors. So it is an unknown to me. But if it is smaller (lighter) than the drive motor, go with the big one. And that drive motor may need a rebuild. If it is functioning, you could use it and if it works out, consider putting some bucks into a rebuild.

When was the last time you saw someone post up here complaining about too powerful a motor? 

Regards,

major


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Francis,
> 
> I'd go with the drive motor. If it is really only 80 lbs, it might not be big enough to meet your objectives. The big pump motor might be a candidate, but take the pump off and look at the shaft. And I didn't know Ohio made wound field motors. So it is an unknown to me. But if it is smaller (lighter) than the drive motor, go with the big one. And that drive motor may need a rebuild. If it is functioning, you could use it and if it works out, consider putting some bucks into a rebuild.
> 
> ...


Thanks Major. The drive motor will need a rebuild as it is seized/rusty, so new bearings and I can turn the commutator on my lathe. Questions
1: if the commutator is ok can I just clean it with some 200 grit emery cloth or green pad while spinning? (I heard this was a no-no)
2: do I need to undercut the commutator? If so can I just use a broken hacksaw blade and go down say .010?

The drive motor is much bigger than the pump motor. Since they are already here I can try them both. How will the 24v take the 72v. (anyone know about the Ohio motor) I will google to find more info on the Ohio. thanks
Francis


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

spdas said:


> 1: if the commutator is ok can I just clean it with some 200 grit emery cloth or green pad while spinning? (I heard this was a no-no)
> 2: do I need to undercut the commutator? If so can I just use a broken hacksaw blade and go down say .010?


1.) If the comm is o.k., don't clean it.

2.) If you don't turn the comm, don't undercut it.

Use a dial indicator for runout and bar to bar deviation. Like 2 tenths bar to bar max and .003 TIR (.002 maybe, it has been a while ). Greater than that or badly contaminated, have it diamond turned and undercut.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I'm curious about that steering motor. Is it likely to be a PM motor instead of wound-field? It looks about the right size for a very small EV like my e-bike projects, and since it's probably also 24V, a better candidate for this sort of thing than a treadmill motor (which I have one of around here to try out if I ever have the chance).
________
Iolite review 2010


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

The steering motor is a 18v
francis


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Thanks--18V means it will work even better, as I should be able to easily double the voltage on motors like it safely, for my 36V bike projects.

For those that have worked on them, what are steering motors on these things usually like? Are they usually PM or wound-field? Light-duty? Any idea of continuous power ratings? (I haven't tried a search for this info yet)
________
Glass Pipe Pictures


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## fogoo (Dec 12, 2009)

Hi all, I came across this motor yesterday and am wondering if it would be a good choice. The pics were the best I could get at the time - it's still installed so I don't know what shaft it has - it's about 14-15" long and has a 9" diameter. I'd be putting it in a bug conversion prob @ 72 volts. This would be for in-town driving only. Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Could be a good candidate for your needs.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi All!

I want to convert a gas go-kart to electric, for a friend of mine and
I would like to know if this motor if this motor is ok for drag racing or it is small?

Must i use one or two motor for drag racing and at what Volts do you recommend?

The motor is 12kw,296amps,6000Rpm and 48volts.

Cheers,

Albano (SA)


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> That's a pretty good sized motor and at 48 or 96 volts it would rip your eyes out of socket on a gocart. I'd say it would be just fine and you could even run it at it's rated voltage and still have a screamer. Jump it to 96 and be sure your axles can hold up to the torque. It could rip them up.
> 
> Got more photos of the motor? How many terminals? Diameter? Looks like 8" or maybe 7". Can't tell.


Thank you gottdi,

Sorry for the incomplete info. The motor is pump and it 7".


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> I'd say you have a good enough motor for your cart needs. That looks pretty hefty and pump motors would be good. I would not go higher than 96 but maybe 48 or 72 volts. Get a controller that will do like 500 amps or more. You will not use it all but the controller should live on the track. Can't wait to see the build and some video on the track. Get building. Paint that motor too. Make it look real good. Does it run on 12 volts? don't test no load with more than 12 volts.
> 
> 
> Pete



Thank.

Yes i did let it run on 12volts and it run very smooth.

I am going to customize the motor, like the advance of brush timing just for in case it I need higher volts and for sure a nice coat of custom paint.
I want that motor to look wild as the power.
The frame is from a racing go-kart 125cc rotax.

Still have to hunt for the right battery and the kart will be mainly for drag racing.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

albano said:


> Thank.
> 
> Yes i did let it run on 12volts and it run very smooth.
> 
> ...


I's using a VERY similar motor in a 1996 Saturn SL conversion. That thing is going to be WILD in a kart.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> I am going to customize the motor, like the advance of brush timing just for in case it I need higher volts and for sure a nice coat of custom paint.......Still have to hunt for the right battery and the kart will be mainly for drag racing.


Hey alb,

That's a pretty big motor for a go kart. A few things:

1.) Make sure you get overspeed protection. Some tach feedback cutoff type. Karts are notorious for breaking or throwing chains. That motor has enough torque to blow itself apart faster than the driver can react if he loses the chain.

2.) Being a pump motor, it is likely unidirectional and may already have brush advance.

3.) I suspect that 6000 RPM you stated is the maximum recommended. A kart isn't going to be much of a load for that motor and you could easily overspeed it without breaking the chain, depending on your voltage and guts of the driver. Get a tach and watch it. I'd keep it under 7 kRPM.

4.) Put a scatter shield around it. She comes apart and you get 33 copper bullets coming at you real fast.

5.) Where's the comm end bearing? If it slips of the shaft, not good. I'd check the fit there.

Have fun, be safe.

major


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

major said:


> Hey alb,
> 
> That's a pretty big motor for a go kart. A few things:
> 
> ...


Thank major,

Here's the comm end housing as you can see i remove the bearing to rebuild the motor and much appreciate for the advise.
Yes, I have to do all the safety first.
What kind of battery and controller should I use for this kind of motor, remember I need a good time for drag.

Thank, 

Albano


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

albano said:


> Thank major,
> 
> Here's the comm end housing as you can see i remove the bearing to rebuild the motor and much appreciate for the advise.
> Yes, I have to do all the safety first.
> ...


Sorry about the photo


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> What kind of battery and controller should I use for this kind of motor, remember I need a good time for drag.


I've done a kart with half that size motor, 275 amp Curtis at 48 volts and when geared for 45 mph tops, would spin tires on launch (on concrete). I got no idea how you hook-up with kart tires with like 4 to 10 times that torque, which you might get with that motor at 600 amps. And the motor could take 1000 

You'll have a fast bugger with 48 volts and 500 amps. Maybe a starting place and work your way up from there.

edit: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37818&highlight=kokart

major


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Any idea on controller and battery for my drag racing go kart project,
I need serious power.

Thank,

Albano


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What kind of power? Give us some numbers. You might want to start a go kart thread.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What kind of power? Give us some numbers. You might want to start a go kart thread.



Hi!

I'm looking for something like 13, 12sec on a 1/4 miles if it is possible.


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

albano said:


> Thank you gottdi,
> 
> Sorry for the incomplete info. The motor is pump and it 7".


Kinda reminds me of one of those Prestolite motors..LOL


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

albano said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm looking for something like 13, 12sec on a 1/4 miles if it is possible.


I was thinking more like how many HP or KW you needed, then we could figure what you'd need for a controller and battery pack.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I was thinking more like how many HP or KW you needed, then we could figure what you'd need for a controller and battery pack.



Well, I need the help from you guys as you all saw the motor and also know how small and light is a go kart.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

If you do a web search for "1/4 mile calculators" and plug in the approximate weight and your target time you can get a rough idea of power needed (probably around 50 hp at the wheels for 12s). Then tell us your budget and we can give some suggestions for controller and batteries. It'd be best to start your own thread though


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

are these two any good?
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2220020919333786&item=10-1808&catname=electric
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2220020919333786&item=10-1899-A&catname=electric


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

gottdi said:


> For what? What are you planning to put this into?


maybe possible atv EV conversion...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Evilsizer said:


> are these two any good?
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2220020919333786&item=10-1808&catname=electric
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2220020919333786&item=10-1899-A&catname=electric


Hi Evil,

I'd say not. First one has internal spline shaft and second one does not have a DE bearing. 

Regards,

major


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> If you do a web search for "1/4 mile calculators" and plug in the approximate weight and your target time you can get a rough idea of power needed (probably around 50 hp at the wheels for 12s). Then tell us your budget and we can give some suggestions for controller and batteries. It'd be best to start your own thread though


The calculation is actually quite simple if you use a constant acceleration: You need to travel 0,25 miles, which is 402,336 meters. Use SI-units, the american system is useless for such calculations. This is in 12 seconds, and gives the average speed of 402.336m/12s = 33.528 m/s. That is 120 km/h, very fast! Can the gokart handle that speed? 

Back to the calculations: if you need an average speed of 33.528 m/s, and the start speed is 0, (*I am using constant acceleration, easiest to calculate*), you must reach the double speed at the end of the track, that is 67 m/s, 241 km/h. *Note that this is not the case in real life as you would probably quickly reach a high speed instead of constantly accelerating...* However, 67 m/s will mean the energy needed is E = m*v^2/2, were m is mass of vehicle in kg, so that will be m*2248 J. Lest say the weight is 300 kg, you will need 674476 J of energy to accelerate. Divide by the time, 12 s, and you have J/s = W, and you need 56.206 kW of motor. I hope this gives you a picture of how much power you need. If you can reach high speed faster, the top speed does not need to be that high. 

*Please note that these calculations does not fully correspond to reality. If you can provide me with how fast such gokarts reach certain speeds I can calculate more accurately. *


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

jockepocke said:


> That is 120 km/h, very fast! Can the gokart handle that speed?


Yes it can. As long it not that kind of home made go kart. You can see my kart on http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/drag-racing-go-kart-41436.html


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I came across this motor on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250578426291&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Any thoughts as to it's usefulness for me?

The seller gave me this additional information:


> yes the motor is 350mm in length without brake parts 440mm with brake assy,240mm width the gear on the end is a cross cut gear but is removable to a 20mm keyed shaft hope this helps




Thanks.

Oh, if you are in the UK, I saw it first!


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I came across this motor on Ebay.
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250578426291&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> Any thoughts as to it's usefulness for me?
> ...


That depends on your intended usage. It is too weak for a car; about 7 hp. Might work good in a gokart etc.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

jockepocke said:


> That depends on your intended usage. It is too weak for a car; about 7 hp. Might work good in a gokart etc.



I bet at 96 volts, it will have a LOT more power than it is rated. I think it will be good for a smaller car, like under 1000kg.(im American, so forgive if i butcher my metric) I am using a simular motor in my (not completed) Saturn SL-1, Curb Weight is 2348lbs, or 1065Kg, might end up a TAD heavier.

Advance the Brushes. Wheres Hi-Torque when you need them? lol


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks,
I will keep an eye on it while looking for others. If it stays cheap enough then it may be a starter option. I will have to justify the 300 mile round trip to collect it though.


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## engbullie (Feb 19, 2010)

I recently came across a forklift motor. Here are the specs I have.
*Came off a 5000 Cat unit*
*5BT1366B162A*
*DC 36/48 volt Motor*
*KW 14.1 RPM 1325*
*Duty 60 min Class H Amps 330*
*17" long on case*
*24" over all length*
*11 " diameter*
*Spline shaft 1 1/4" & 3" long*
*Estimated 225 lbs so it will have to ship motor freight*​ 
I am considering it for my 1995 hyundai elantra EV conversion. I am interested in any opinions on wether or not this is a good choice. I have to do a couple more measurements but I think it will fit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Specs look good, make sure it's a series motor and not sepex.


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Specs look good, make sure it's a series motor and not sepex.


What?  Sepex rules - you will have eg. have regeneration and in many cases better efficiency for a broader rpm spectra! You will have to find a sepex controller though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jockepocke said:


> What?  Sepex rules - you will have eg. have regeneration and in many cases better efficiency for a broader rpm spectra! You will have to find a sepex controller though.


Exactly, so you won't have any of that if you can't find a controller, and I don't know of any sepex controllers that go above 120 volts. So, make sure it's not a sepex.....


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Exactly, so you won't have any of that if you can't find a controller, and I don't know of any sepex controllers that go above 120 volts. So, make sure it's not a sepex.....


Well, I have a sepex controller for 120 volt, but it can be run at 144 volts as well. The motor I have is built for 108, so I went with 120 v.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You European guys have better access to sepex than we do in the states. What controller are you using that goes to 144 volts?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

engbullie said:


> I recently came across a forklift motor. Here are the specs I have.
> *Came off a 5000 Cat unit*
> *5BT1366B162A*
> *DC 36/48 volt Motor*
> ...


The model number and other specs it looks as though it might be the same Sepex motor discussed in the thread *Who's running a larger sepex out there???* I think that all these came from MHWC. Ramiro has provided motors to a bunch of people here - check back through the thread.

I have one, but it's not yet in the car so I don't have any practical feedback. My one thought about the motor is that I think it's a little large for the conversion we're doing - a Suzuki Sidekick/Chevy Tracker - so suspect that the same consideration might apply to the Elantra. Weight and size seem to be the only disadvantages of bigger motors, whereas smoke and having to walk home seem to be the significant disadvantages of undersized motor.


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You European guys have better access to sepex than we do in the states. What controller are you using that goes to 144 volts?


It is an Italian made controller, from elektrosistem: http://www.elektrosistem.com/e/home.htm

The model is t-62, and is originally built for 120 v, but 144 volts can be enabled somewhere in the menus. It does regen braking and of course reversing. The peak current is 600 A (but I only use 250). 

I think I paid about 13000 SEK, that is about 1800 $, but that includes a aluminium heat sink, keyboard and display for programming, fuse and a contactor.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Exactly, so you won't have any of that if you can't find a controller, and I don't know of any sepex controllers that go above 120 volts. So, make sure it's not a sepex.....


Sharon who has some listings in the Vendor forum represents Chennic. They have some high voltage (144V & 156V) Sepex controllers. However, somewhere on the forum you'll find a discussion of the problems of running Sepex motors without interpoles at high voltages. (I'm just reciting that, I don't really understand the significance).

I have a 120V controller on order that I'm planning to user to run a Sepex motor very similar to this one at 104V.


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Have you been using your controller with full regen without problems at high speeds? Does your sepex motor have interpoles? Just curious.
> 
> Pete



What do you mean with "full" regen? Is that referring to the field current? 

I am unsure about the interpoles, but there are 4 brushes, and the motor was made for automotive use. I am only at the testing stage yet with the motor and controller, but so far regen works good. I have had some issues going at higher speed because of the field weakening, but it is probably just some settings I need to fix. I have made it to about 80 km/h, and max speed is 90 km/h as the motor rpm limit is 7000 rpm, and I have a fixed ratio gearbox. 

The biggest issue is that the car jerks a bit. Despite me having a fixed fot on the pedal (fixed potentiometer voltage) it wont stop accelerating, and when it does, it starts retarding, I am unable to keep constant speed when it comes to higher speeds. Anyone have any suggestions to fix this?


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## 72opel (Mar 26, 2009)

Would 36v 200amp 1110rpm forklift motor work for s10


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

72opel said:


> Would 36v 200amp 1110rpm forklift motor work for s10


I assume you mean if you ran it at higher voltage, and with that limited information I'd say maybe.


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## 72opel (Mar 26, 2009)

Yes higher voltage.MOTOR looks to be 10 or11"dia x20"long.


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## engbullie (Feb 19, 2010)

So if I use a sepex motor is it still necessary to advance it or can that be adjusted with the controller?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

engbullie said:


> So if I use a sepex motor is it still necessary to advance it or can that be adjusted with the controller?


Hi eng,

Most folks that use SepEx want to use the regeneration feature. Advancing brush position for motoring puts it the wrong direction for generating. So you could advance brushes on a SepEx motor if you do not use regen or reverse the motor rotation direction for vehicle reverse.

And no. Commutation difficulty cannot be effectively dealt with by controller adjustments. This is why they look for SepEx motors with interpoles for higher voltage, higher power applications.

Regards,

major


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Most folks that use SepEx want to use the regeneration feature. Advancing brush position for motoring puts it the wrong direction for generating. So you could advance brushes on a SepEx motor if you do not use regen or reverse the motor rotation direction for vehicle reverse.


I've heard this before and I don't really understand it since the rotation direction is the same when driving or braking with regen - you're still going "forward".

Do you have any feeling for how high these 36/48V forklift motors, such as the GE motor that started this discussion, can go without needing to be advanced? 72V, 96V, 120V??


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

green caveman said:


> I've heard this before and I don't really understand it since the rotation direction is the same when driving or braking with regen - you're still going "forward".


Yes, the motor is spinning in the forward direction, but the armature current is reversed with regen (conventional current towards the battery +ve terminal) compared to driving (conventional current away from the battery +ve terminal).

As a result, the armature magnetic fields are opposite to what they are for driving, and that changes where the neutral voltage position is on the commutator. You need that neutral voltage position to minimise commutator arcing.

During regen, the current and hence the torque is the same as for the motor driving in reverse, but the back EMF (which comes from the rotation and field magnetism) is the same as for forward driving. Hence, motors have 4 quadrants of operation (you've probably heard this term before), with two axes (motor speed/voltage and motor torque/current) being either positive or negative. The 4 quadrants are forward motoring, reverse motoring, forward generating (regen), and reverse generating (regen when running in reverse).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

green caveman said:


> I've heard this before and I don't really understand it since the rotation direction is the same when driving or braking with regen - you're still going "forward".


I see Coulo gave you a decent explanation of this....thanks. 



> Do you have any feeling for how high these 36/48V forklift motors, such as the GE motor that started this discussion, can go without needing to be advanced? 72V, 96V, 120V?


Yes,.....no,....kind of  It is difficult to pin down unless you get a magnetic finite element analysis simulation and motor model. Just too many factors, like current, voltage, RPM, basic motor design parameters and sunspot activity. Install the thing and get a friend to stick his face down there under a hard accel and tell you how much it sparks 

Hey, sorry, I got no easy answers. Maybe some other members can chime in with their experience and guide you. Maybe for an off-the-cuff-guess.....if you got an unidirectional motor application without regen, use 4 degree advance for 48V, 6 degree for 72V, 7 degree for 96V and 8 degrees for higher.

Regards,

major


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Yes, the motor is spinning in the forward direction, but the armature current is reversed with regen (conventional current towards the battery +ve terminal) compared to driving (conventional current away from the battery +ve terminal).
> 
> As a result, the armature magnetic fields are opposite to what they are for driving, and that changes where the neutral voltage position is on the commutator. You need that neutral voltage position to minimise commutator arcing.
> 
> During regen, the current and hence the torque is the same as for the motor driving in reverse, but the back EMF (which comes from the rotation and field magnetism) is the same as for forward driving. Hence, motors have 4 quadrants of operation (you've probably heard this term before), with two axes (motor speed/voltage and motor torque/current) being either positive or negative. The 4 quadrants are forward motoring, reverse motoring, forward generating (regen), and reverse generating (regen when running in reverse).


Thanks for explaining that - now it makes sense. Can you explain in the same, simple terms how interpoles help? Motors that have interpoles seems to be less common - at least if you're working with forklift motors, but it would be good to know the logic behind this.

Any guess as to the max voltage for these forklift motors (without interpoles)?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Do you have any feeling for how high these 36/48V forklift motors, such as the GE motor that started this discussion, can go without needing to be advanced? 72V, 96V, 120V??


I doubt you can go much above 48 volts without advancing the brushes. I know Jim advances them for even 72 volts.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Install the thing and get a friend to stick his face down there under a hard accel and tell you how much it sparks
> 
> Maybe some other members can chime in with their experience and guide you.


I hope, because it'll probably be me sticking my head in there. It would also kinda suck to find out that there's a problem only AFTER the whole car is together.

Anything to help the situation other than buying another motor (or turning off regen)? Advance a little and increase the sparking during regen, decrease regen percent/current?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I am using an 11" GE forklift motor. Pulled from forklift put in Ranger. 
Nothing done to it . My battery pack is 120 volts. If there are any sparks
I can't see them from the cab. It seems to work fine.
Alvin


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

green caveman said:


> Can you explain in the same, simple terms how interpoles help? Motors that have interpoles seems to be less common - at least if you're working with forklift motors, but it would be good to know the logic behind this.


That's not so simple, but I'll have a go. The magnetic field of the armature (the part that spins) distorts the magnetic pattern that is supposed to be established by the field windings. This effect is more pronounced the higher the armature current, since armature magnetic field is proportional to armature current.

This distortion is called "armature reaction", and it is the main reason that the neutral commutation point moves, and advancing the brushes is an attempt to move the brushes closer to the "average" neutral position. But unless you get really fancy, advanced timing is a compromise, that is "correct" only at a particular armature current, and is too much advance at low armature current, and too little advance at the highest armature current. Advanced timing is even worse for reverse armature current (running in reverse, or regenerating), since the negative armature current has moved the neutral point in the opposite direction (retarded timing).

Interpoles are smallish (compared to the main field) windings that are designed to produce a magnetic field that more or less corrects for armature reaction. They get current proportional (probably equal in most motors) to the armature current, so their effect is more pronounced when a more pronounced effect is needed, i.e. at higher armature currents.

They're not prefect, so they don't eliminate brush arcing. But with interpoles, the neutral commutation point doesn't move much at all; it's about the same for low, high, and even reverse currents (either motoring in reverse, or regenerating). Advancing the brushes is not necessary or desirable when interpoles are present.

As for why interpoles help when the motor is run at higher voltages, I don't remember; perhaps someone else could chime in here. By gut feeling would be that the higher the external voltage, the higher the back EMF from the motor (or else massive currents would flow), and the higher back EMF would cause more arcing from armature reaction, which interpoles reduce considerably.


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## 72opel (Mar 26, 2009)

Alvin--what controller are you using-I am try to get parts together for s10-I have a 11" 36volt motor


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

72opel
I am using the open source DIY controller.
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/index.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/open-revolt-open-source-dc-motor-controller.html
Good Luck
Alvin


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I have a possible option on the motor pictured. Its for a friends fwd conversion project. It has double brushes and is in a 48v Mitsubishi reach truck. 9" diameter. Any opinions?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems as if it would be good unless it has a weird shaft end.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Everybody
I have a dumb question
I am advancing my old Hitachi forklift motor by 10 degrees

Is it OK to advance it by 100 degrees? 90 degrees + 10 degrees?

I am asking because it seems to be easier for me to effectively rotate the comm end by 90 degrees plus my 10 degree advance rather than just 10 degrees

I think it will be OK - 
I think it will reverse the direction of rotation but I can get it back by reversing the field coils

Am I barking up the wrong tree?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have a forklift motor that may be used in the MR2 project.
Here is a direct quote from the thread for you motor experts (major?) to peruse.


Woodsmith said:


> Well, I have picked up the motor from Simon with many thanks.
> 
> This is the connection point. The cables exit grommeted holes in the frame and then into a connector block. The insulation has perished and the colour tags have faded and lost their markings.
> 
> ...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Continued...


Woodsmith said:


> I have started to dismantle the motor.
> 
> I managed to pull off the gear, it was very tight on the shaft. The motor end of the gear has an extension to locate on the bearing.
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I have a forklift motor that may be used in the MR2 project.
> Here is a direct quote from the thread for you motor experts (major?) to peruse.


Hi Wood,

Looks like from the name plate, or what's left of it, you got a 1.8 kW, 110 amp, 900 RPM motor, so 24 V would be my guess. Brushes look about the size common to 6.7 inch motors. Pretty obvious it is series wound. Looks structurally sound. No big old burns or splattered copper. Comm surface ain't great, but workable as is from what I see.

You say the leads are frayed. Replace those (or tape 'em up) and put it together and see if it runs. Or did you try that yet?

Nice bar wound armature. How many comm bars does she have? You got 2 coils per armature slot. Maybe 25 slots. Then maybe 49 bars? Those armature coil knuckles look kinda weird. I can't tell from the photo if the wire insulation has flaked off and/or if the dip varnish is still there or if it is just some crap on top of it. Check continuity from comm surface to those knuckles. If they are bare, you'll to have coat them. And looks like a field coil has copper exposed. I wonder what wore that down.

I'd say see if it works before putting a lot of time into it.

What is a MR2? A small Toyota car? Even at higher voltage, this motor would be light on power for that. At 48 volt, it might have about the same power rating as that GE 6.7 on your tractor. But a lot more torque for the sake of less RPM. Maybe you could jack it up to even higher voltage and get more power, but you'll always be brush limited on the current it will tolerate. It is ventilated at that end. Maybe you could blow a storm thru it and keep the brushes cool. If the armature and comm will stand 5000 RPM, then you might be able to push up to like 120 V, advance the brushes and run 150 A. Might push a little car around. 

Regards,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks major.

I can't see what could have worn away the field coil insulation but it does look odd as it is only on two of the coils and well away from anything that moves.

The MR2 is a Toyota sports car of about 1250kg max weight. If it is not really even close to being suitable then I will not waste time and money on installing it there. It will probably end up in the tractor at 48v and with a bigger chain drive.

I shall count com bars and check for bare copper later and post what I find. I will try to sleeve the cable enough to prevent shorts and then reassemble and test for running.

If it is only a 24v motor will it still spin to death at 24v unloaded? I will only test on 12v though.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> If it is only a 24v motor will it still spin to death at 24v unloaded? I will only test on 12v though.


Just stick with 12V. Maybe even 6. Don't chance 24


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

well i hope im not stealing a thread but it appears to be open season here.

i am thinking of pulling the tired 350 our of my 90 camaro and going electric. im also thinking of using a direct bolt on to my auto trans without a torque converter. that gives me a lot of gears - 3 speed and an overdrive. at 70 mph im doing about 1800 rpm on my 350.

so what is the best forklift motor? keeping in mind i dont have to go high rmp, althouhg i can.

thanks


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> well i hope im not stealing a thread but it appears to be open season here.


Stealing no, but the spirit of this thread is much more "I've found this motor will it work?"



infantry11b said:


> i am thinking of pulling the tired 350 our of my 90 camaro and going electric. im also thinking of using a direct bolt on to my auto trans without a torque converter. that gives me a lot of gears - 3 speed and an overdrive. at 70 mph im doing about 1800 rpm on my 350.
> 
> so what is the best forklift motor? keeping in mind i dont have to go high rmp, althouhg i can.
> 
> thanks


This is not my area of expertise, but the first cut seems to be size. If the diameter is less than about 8" then it's probably too small, somewhere between about 9" and 11" seems to be about right (depends on the weigh of the car - once you pull the engine you may have something quite light). 

There are many suggestions earlier in the thread concerning where to find these motors. Once you've found something big enough you can refine the search with power, type - sepex and series seem to be the most common on forklifts - and so forth.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

infantry11b said:


> so what is the best forklift motor? keeping in mind i dont have to go high rmp, althouhg i can.
> 
> thanks


As said 9"-11" is about the range.

Also measure the length of your ICE to see how long a motor can be fitted. Transverse engine cars can be a bit tight on motor length.

Depending on many other factors series wound motors are the easier starting point. Go for a higher voltage motor if you can.

If you see a motor then take lots of photos and measurements and then come back here for an opinion on it.
You should measure:
Diameter
Length
Length of the comm bars
Number of comm bars
Shaft type and size if you can see it

Get good photos of the brushes, comm, any visible windings and also the data plate and any other information that is on the motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Just stick with 12V. Maybe even 6. Don't chance 24


LOL

I put the end cap back on and figured the terminals with an insulation resistance tester.
There is 0.5mohm resistance between one set of windings and 0.2mohm on the other set of windings to the frame. Not sure which windings is which though.

I did a video.


The brushes are 1" wide and there is still a lot of brush left and there seems to be 59 comm bars. I counted twice, should it be an odd number?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> ....there seems to be 59 comm bars. I counted twice, should it be an odd number?


Yeah, that's cool. 30 slots and 59 bars. Actually better than my guess of 49 if you want to up the voltage. Low voltage motors (like cranking motors) will use lap wound armatures with even bar counts. But the larger and higher voltage motors mostly use wave wound armatures and there you need to have an odd bar count, as odd as it seems


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Yeah, that's cool. 30 slots and 59 bars. Actually better than my guess of 49 if you want to up the voltage. Low voltage motors (like cranking motors) will use lap wound armatures with even bar counts. But the larger and higher voltage motors mostly use wave wound armatures and there you need to have an odd bar count, as odd as it seems


So does that make it a better motor? Would it be more then 24v then?

I don't know how much effort to invest in it yet, or for which vehicle.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> So does that make it a better motor? Would it be more then 24v then?


Better  Just different. It is fairly slow (900 RPM) at 24 V. So I think it may run well at higher voltage. And that is related to the number of armature coils and how they are connected.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Better  Just different. It is fairly slow (900 RPM) at 24 V. So I think it may run well at higher voltage. And that is related to the number of armature coils and how they are connected.


I meant better as in better then it might have seemed before for using in the car maybe but that is a relative question.

I am begining to suspect I should be looking at it as a low speed higher torque tractor motor then for the car.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

SORRY for busting in. next time i will wait until i get the motor to see if it will work, but that appears to be backwards, to get the motor first and then ask if it will work; but i will take your advice and i will wait until I have the motor before i ask again.
in response to other parts, my camaro is 3200 lbs with the engine, gas tank, all all the other parts that i can take off.
so i should be able to get down by 575 pounds, plus a lot of weight for the torque converter, radiator, etc., so im already down to 2500 pounds.
when you take out that 350 you have a more than enough space to put in a small nuke electrical plant. the width is 22 inches, not counting the headers, and other add ons. the lenght 28 inches, not counting bell housing, fan, water pump, and all the bolt on stuff. height is about 36 inches with all the injecton systems - and not counting the oil pan. and that does not count space in front of the engine, radiator, etc.
from the rear firewall to the radiator is over 4 feet and from left to right is 5 feet, with some narrowing for wheels at the center - etc. can you say grand canyon under the hood?
so if i can just get a steer by wire system there would be even more room.
i dont think room is the problem, its the motor - as in biggest forklift motor i can get vs rpm needs. most of the motors length will not be the problem, and diameter is not a problem either. its which one to get.
thanks for any help.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Infantry
I got a lovely motor 
- 11 inch dia 16 inch long Hitachi, 10 Kw at 48v weighs a lot 80Kg?

I think you should be looking for something similar
I did it all wrong and wasted some money

What I did
Bought an old forklift on TradeMe (NZ equivalent of EBay)
found both of the motors were unsuitable
In the process of disposing of the old forklift (I got most of my money back)
I contacted the local forklift repair place
They had lots of motors from scrapped units - they were worth scrap metal money to them
I was able to pick over a pile of motors and selected my Hitachi for $100

Read the first few pages of this thread to filter out the best units
Look in your yellow pages for forklift repair and go and visit with cash in hand


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

infantry11b said:


> SORRY for busting in. next time i will wait until i get the motor to see if it will work, but that appears to be backwards, to get the motor first and then ask if it will work; but i will take your advice and i will wait until I have the motor before i ask again.


Hi again.

We don't mean get a motor and then ask, more find a motor and ask before you get it.

There are some things that will make one motor easier to use then another for your needs, physical size being one of them.

I only got the motor I am asking about as it was free. It will make a good learning curve before I invest in a motor bought from a fork truck breaker.

Are there any places near you where you can get a motor from? You could have a look and then tell us what options you have identified and we may be able to then point you in the direction of which to avoid.

You could also start a thread of your own in Conversions so that you can log your process so far and ask specific questions about the vehicle and the motor as you go. Then you may want to have specific threads for specific questions.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> i dont think room is the problem, its the motor - as in biggest forklift motor i can get vs rpm needs. most of the motors length will not be the problem, and diameter is not a problem either. its which one to get.
> thanks for any help.


As far as I know, the only problem with getting a motor that is too large (apart from the fit which doesn't seem to be a problem for you) is the weight. If you have a choice, a little oversize is better than undersize. Undersize and you might end up letting the smoke out, and once the smoke has gone the motor won't work any more.

Woody's advice seems to be the most popular approach. If you can find somewhere that has motors, take a camera down there, find one that looks the right size and post photos before buying.

There's a post somewhere regarding how to tell the difference between a series and sepex motor (both are common in forklifts). Sepex can give you regen, but is limited in voltage (and therefore limits your top speed). Since you seem to have a pretty serious gear ratio sepex may work for you.

If you want performance then a higher voltage pack and series motor might be better.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Infantry
> I got a lovely motor
> - 11 inch dia 16 inch long Hitachi, 10 Kw at 48v weighs a lot 80Kg?
> 
> ...


thanks for that idea. i think i will. then i will follow the other advice and take some pics to see what everyone thinks.
thanks again everyone.


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## Iboondock (Feb 16, 2010)

*Need opinions*

I'm trying to find the right motor for this conversion:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-tracked-vehicle-42565.html

Basically it's short range, low speed, high torque. Due to space limitations my battery bank will likely be 36 volts.

I've acquired 3 motors on the cheap, and would like your opinions on which would work best. Thanks for your help.

Option 1:

Prestolite 24 volt; Approx 7"x14"; Haven't weighed this one, 60-70 lbs estimated.
Has a good shaft option, but would need a support bearing on the DE.


























Option 2:

Clark 36-48 volt; Approx 7"x16.5"; 98 lbs.
Female spline shaft. And not sure what type it is, only two terminals.


































Option 3:

GE 36-48 volt; Approx 11"x19"; 187 lbs.
Motor looks like new. Probably the best bet, but it's heavy. Maybe overkill?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: Need opinions*



Iboondock said:


> I'm trying to find the right motor for this conversion:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electric-tracked-vehicle-42565.html
> 
> Basically it's short range, low speed, high torque. Due to space limitations my battery bank will likely be 36 volts.
> ...


Hi Iboon,

Man, you got some nice motors 

#1 is a Prestolite 6.7 in dia series wound reversible traction motor. Basically like a golf cart motor on steroids. It'd probably do the job for ya, but you'd have to install a DE bearing. Not the easiest task. 

#2 is also a Prestolite made motor for Clark. It is MLV type I think. A 7.2 in dia long stack pump motor. Series wound I'm almost certain but unidirectional. This is a great design. Same 33 slot armature as they used in the MTC motors which were used in small car and truck conversions up to 120 volts. It has the standard 4.5 degree brush advance. It would be the best choice for you vehicle, IMO. You just have to deal with the splined shaft. Jim Husted is able to replace shafts at HiTorqueElectric down in Oregon.

A little rust on the core doesn't hurt anything. You can lightly sand it, but don't hit the wires or smear the steel under the rust. It looks to me like this motor would be worth putting some bucks into. Look up the price for a Warp7 motor. It can handle like 200 amps continuously (with good ventilation) and over 500 amps for a controller limit. Maybe higher there. It will push a ton of snow for ya.

#3 is a GE 11 in dia. What can I say? Great motor. Look up the price for a Warp11. This is pretty much what you have, just without the advance, which is easy to do. Great motor for conversions of medium size cars, trucks, jeeps, etc.

Cool motors 

major


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: Need opinions*

One other thing Iboon,

When using a series motor, best to remove that snow mobile type tranny. Just go direct thru a pulley ratio into the drive and use a speed controller, which you will need anyway for current limit. You don't need the clutch and don't want to idle the electric motor. Just make sure you can't overspeed the motor, like if a belt breaks. Full voltage to an unloaded series motor will cause it to overspeed and damage itself and possibly nearby objects or people.

major


----------



## Iboondock (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*



major said:


> One other thing Iboon,
> 
> When using a series motor, best to remove that snow mobile type tranny. Just go direct thru a pulley ratio into the drive and use a speed controller, which you will need anyway for current limit. You don't need the clutch and don't want to idle the electric motor. Just make sure you can't overspeed the motor, like if a belt breaks. Full voltage to an unloaded series motor will cause it to overspeed and damage itself and possibly nearby objects or people.
> 
> major


Thanks for the info on the motors! 

I had planned on eliminating the clutch system for the same reasons you stated. And I was toying with the idea of eliminating the gearbox and going direct drive. But that has a few problems, one being no neutral. It sounds like keeping the gearcase and using the unidirectional motor is the way to go. I can make a shaft adapter.

As for the GE, looks like it goes under the bench for a future project. Or I could sell it and finance this project. 

Thanks again.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*

why would you need a neutral? its either on or off isn't it?


----------



## Iboondock (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*



infantry11b said:


> why would you need a neutral? its either on or off isn't it?



It may be that I don't. Once the master switch is on, locked and loaded right?

My thought was that it would be good to have a mechanical disconnect btw the motor and drive train. Maybe that's not necessary. But with the unidirectional motor, it may be a moot point.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*

where did you get the GE and is there a number on it? i would like to see the stats, if possible.
nice find.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Out of all the folks that have "spare" motors laying around you're considering selling, do any of you have something inexpensive that could replace this one? 








http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=16739&start=0

He just barely got the car and now poof.  I like what he does with ebikes and would like to help him out by finding an affordable replacement.
________
LoriBabe cam


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks fixable..........


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I don't know yet. The only thing he really said so far, last time I saw his thread this afternoon, was something like "BAH! ". I assume it is overspeed, but whatever caused it he needs either a new motor or a pretty severe repair. Don't know if it's bad enough to require rewinding or if the only damage is the comms and wire attach points. 

I'd like to help him find something inexpensive to replace it (I assume a repair might cost less but could take a lot of time, and a fast repair would likely be expensive). 

It looks like ES is down for maintenance, so I can't check to see if there's more info in the linked thread yet.
________
Zoloft Side Effect


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Well, he doesn't say what caused it, but this is the nameplate, if it helps find a replacement.








If I understand the way he said things correctly, it's a 6" series-wound motor, and he's ok with anything from there to a 9".
________
Jannni cam


----------



## Iboondock (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*



infantry11b said:


> where did you get the GE and is there a number on it? i would like to see the stats, if possible.
> nice find.



I got it from a forklift shop. Surplus motor or some such.

Some of what I can get off the plate:
36-48 volt; 1325 RPM; 370 AMP; 13.7 KW;
Model #: 5BT1364B258B


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*

thank you.
i thought motors were supposed to be high reving? is that the prefered or max operating speed, or is it one in the same?


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Need opinions*

im looking to put one into my camaro - it will be about 2500 pounds without an engine but i wanted to use the auto trans and running at that speed all day would be perfect - i can adjust the 700r4 trans to shift at the correct speeds and short bursts and keep up with traffic. i can even change the rear end to give me a pretty good crusing speed. but it is all in the future until i decide on the motor, the rest will follow.
thanks


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Hello,

I'd like to ask for help in identifying this forklift drivemotor. It's a Baker motor and has six terminals labeled A, B, H, U, F and E. Resistance between F and E is about 1 ohm and between pairs A, B, H and U it's 0,5 ohms. Measured with cheap multimeter. Also, there is 400 ohm resistance between F, E and motor housing. Other terminals show infinite resistance between them and housing. It's a bit heavy (~100kg / 220lbs) and has four brushes. I have to put in on a scale to see more exact weight. Motor is gunky and oily too, hehe. 

From DE to CE it is about 14 inches without coupler and DE cover housing. Diameter is very close to 12".

Owner told me it came from an old forklift weighing 6 tons. Truck operated at 48V. It was in working condition before they took it apart.

Plate on motor is a bit tough to read but I got this info from it:

Baker motor
The Baker - Raulang Co.
type 1860
NO. 19710
4U - 11603 - X3

I've included some pictures. Is this motor any good for EV use? I'm after moderate acceleration and about 30mph constant speed using 2000 lbs donor vehicle (ICE and everything still in place).


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mora said:


> Is this motor any good for EV use? I'm after moderate acceleration and about 30mph constant speed using 2000 lbs donor vehicle


Hi mora,

Baker made motors for their own use on fork trucks. This may be one of those. They were good motors. This one appears to be robust. Comm looks in good shape. It is likely a series wound motor. Resistance measurements are not accurate with multimeters but indicate milliohm range which would support series windings. A 6 terminal series motor means that the field has 2 circuits for series or series/parallel connection of the 4 field coils. You have to figure out how to wire it, in series/parallel which would be my guess as to how you'd want it for a PWM controller.

Also a guess from me, it is an old motor, perhaps vintage. It is possible it has class B insulation, meaning you can't run it as hot as newer class H motors. Nevertheless, it appears to be capable out putting out some good torque for you. Your vehicle performance goals are modest, so I'd venture to say this motor would do the trick. It is likely a lot heavier than what you'd really need. 

Good luck with it.

major


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks a lot Major.

We took the motor apart for cleaning/repainting. We also removed the brake from CE. Motor has been taken apart, propably serviced, before as everything inside was painted red and wires going from brushes to F/E-terminals were taped with cheap-looking tape. Everything else looks good to me. I still need to check if short to housing went away after cleaning.

Terminal A is connected to two field coils in series and ends to terminal B. These coils are opposite each other. Same goes for terminals J and H.
Terminals F and E connect to brushes the same way: F goes to brush and another brush 180 degrees apart. Same goes for terminal E.

Now the last question (hopefully, hehe). I feel dumb already. How should I connect it? I made a sketch to help realize how the wires go around now. I saw similar connection diagram somewhere in this thread but it was for 4-terminal type motor only. I hope the answer benefits all the other users with same problem too.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mora said:


> How should I connect it? I made a sketch to help realize how the wires go around now.


Hi mora,

I can help you. But I need you to do a couple of simple tests. Use a 6, 8 or 12 volt supply or battery.

Test #1: Connect F to battery positive, E to A, and B to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.

Test #2: Connect F to battery positive, E to J, and H to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.

At no load, the motor will run with just 2 field coils energized just like it would if wired in series/parallel field. Doing these two tests will define the polarity of the fields and tell us how to wire them for series parallel or all in series and get the correct polarity.

If you can, record the shaft speed when you do the test. And the volts and amps would also be nice, but not necessary.

Regards,

major


----------



## asinc (Mar 15, 2010)

So, I have a GEO metro donor car and am trying to locate a motor. My local rewind shop has a forklift dc series motor which is marked as 9.4kw, 45V and a P/N of DTL-9.4HSU-2200T. Its 13.5" by 8.5" diameter with an internal shaft. I cant locate the mfg. I can get it for less than $500, would this be suitable for a GEO conversion? I am hoping on running at 96V for the pack voltage. Any input would be appreciated as this is my first conversion and I need to keep the costs low.

I can fab a coupling and an adaptor plate in the hopes of saving some cash. 

I was looking at the ev offerings and figured the costs would be in the order of $1700 for this sort of vehicle with dedicated ev parts. Thats outside of my budget right now. With a $500 motor and free coupling and adaptor I will be well under that if the motor works for the application.

Major mentioned rotation and that is something I will have to confirm. He also mentioned GE as a manufacturer. Is this a GE part number?

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=174616


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

asinc said:


> Major mentioned rotation and that is something I will have to confirm. He also mentioned GE as a manufacturer. Is this a GE part number?


Sorry, I thought you said GE. Must have been GEO. I don't know about the part #.

major


----------



## ky-honolulu (Apr 7, 2010)

major said:


> Sorry, I thought you said GE. Must have been GEO. I don't know about the part #.
> 
> major


 Major, while you're on the topic about GE motors , I was wondering if you know how to advance the brushes. I have a GE motor measurement 17.5" x 12" the Hyster part number 325744 I am trying to understand how to advance the brushes, if you or someone else can assist me or tell me how. I open the compartment and I've seen all the brushes but Do not know how to move them or in which direction . Aloha


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ky-honolulu said:


> Major, while you're on the topic about GE motors , I was wondering if you know how to advance the brushes. I have a GE motor measurement 17.5" x 12" the Hyster part number 325744 I am trying to understand how to advance the brushes, if you or someone else can assist me or tell me how. I open the compartment and I've seen all the brushes but Do not know how to move them or in which direction . Aloha


Hi ky-ho,

Nose around Jim's web site (the guy who started this thread). http://hitorqueelectric.com/ Somewhere on there he goes thru this with some nice photos. Also try the search feature on this site. The topic has been covered before. If you can't find what you need, come back with some pics of your machine.

major


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> Nose around Jim's web site (the guy who started this thread). http://hitorqueelectric.com/ Somewhere on there he goes thru this with some nice photos.


Found it. http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/Step_by_step/Brush+Advancement/BRUSH+ADVANCE+PIC.GIF.html


----------



## ky-honolulu (Apr 7, 2010)

Thank you both for the info and photos on motor advancing. Looks like I have to drill the ring on the motor holding the brushes.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just picked up a 6.7" DC series motor and wanted to see if I can get some feedback on it. I didn't buy it for performance usage, it's for a more artistically-oriented project that I am using as a creative outlet to keep from cluttering the Inhaler up with every bright idea I come up with. So if it's slow it's just slow. If it turns out to be capable of moderate performance I may even pursue it eventually. I know it's not a race motor - it has two small bolts holding the drive and comm ends on, and similar looking bolts holding the field coils in place. Compared to my 11" GE it's toy like, but also really cool looking! 

It's rated at 36 volts/71 amps. How far can I go above that and be in the motor's safe range? It's really, really, clean. The insides look like new and have no funny odors or telltale signs of abuse - from what my inexperienced eyes can see. Sounds smooth and clink-clunk-free when rotated by hand. When handling it I don't get anything on my hands - not even basic dirt. I was doing some research, before purchasing it, and I am pretty certain I remember finding that it was used in aircraft transporters; but I can't figure how how I found that info.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gottdi said:


> No DE mounting points and small brushes. Might make a cool little motor for a small motor cycle like the old Honda QA-50


It has a metal bracket on the main case just after the DE, but that's not an issue because I can fabricate whatever it takes. I actually thought about putting it in one of those little pocket rocket sportbikes, but will probably do something that's sprawled out a good bit more. Looks like a rocket ship, goes like a scooter... I forgot to mention that the idea is to do a two-wheeled project, not a car.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Thought you might think about a cart of some sort but yes a 2 wheeler would be better. Maybe a small trike. I like the pocket rocket idea.
> 
> Pete


I considered carts, and trikes, but I am a two-wheeler type of guy. The thing that ices the cake is the fact that I can roll it right through the front door and keep it in my living room - even in an apartment (because EVs have no gas and oil, etc). 

So any opinions on what the motor can handle as far as volts and amperage? As I said, I am not looking for high performance. I just need to start developing an idea of how much space I need for batteries, etc.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gottdi said:


> You said 36 volts because of the tag but you could more than likely do 72 with no trouble and at least a few hundred amps but not consistent. I bet you could get away with a 150 amps or a bit more for longer. I bet you won't even see that. Just thinking. Looks like a good strong motor.
> 
> Pete


Cool, thanks for the feedback Pete. 72 volts and a few hundred peak/max amps would probably be perfect. It does feel and seem like a solid little motor.


----------



## asinc (Mar 15, 2010)

asinc said:


> So, I have a GEO metro donor car and am trying to locate a motor. My local rewind shop has a forklift dc series motor which is marked as 9.4kw, 45V and a P/N of DTL-9.4HSU-2200T. Its 13.5" by 8.5" diameter with an internal shaft. I cant locate the mfg. I can get it for less than $500, would this be suitable for a GEO conversion? I am hoping on running at 96V for the pack voltage. Any input would be appreciated as this is my first conversion and I need to keep the costs low.
> 
> I can fab a coupling and an adaptor plate in the hopes of saving some cash.
> 
> ...


I dropped by the shop and took a picture of the motor for others to view and offer opinions. Here it is:


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I guess that's a one direction pump motor? Brush area seems decent. How do you plan to deal with the female shaft? You need to lock the coupler into it, or lock it on the transmission shaft.


----------



## asinc (Mar 15, 2010)

Here is another forklift motor I was looking at. Its a cat motor measuring 9.5" x 14.75". It has 4 brushes that appear to be a fair size, double stub shafts and a mounting flange. Too much for a GEO metro?


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

major said:


> Test #1: Connect F to battery positive, E to A, and B to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.
> 
> Test #2: Connect F to battery positive, E to J, and H to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.
> 
> If you can, record the shaft speed when you do the test. And the volts and amps would also be nice, but not necessary.


Looking at the DE side of motor:

Test #1 - counter-clockwise

Test #2 - clockwise

During test #2 the motor really wanted to get moving. We didn't run the motor more than few seconds during tests but speeds seemed equal. We also didn't have equipment to measure amps. Will have to get a shunt for amp readings anyway, but that's after we get the motor fitted to transmission and got those under hood.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Mora,



major said:


> Test #1: Connect F to battery positive, E to A, and B to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.
> 
> Test #2: Connect F to battery positive, E to J, and H to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.





mora said:


> Looking at the DE side of motor:
> 
> Test #1 - counter-clockwise
> 
> Test #2 - clockwise


O.K. So the way I figure it:

Hi Speed Connection:

F to Battery Positive
E to A & H
J & B to Battery Negative

Low Speed connection:

F to Battery Positive
E to A
B to H
J to Battery Negative

To reverse rotation, switch F and E.

I think you will want to run permanently connected in the Hi Speed mode which is series parallel of the field coils. 

Double check me by wiring as I said and doing a 12 volt (or lower) bench test. If I got it wrong, fields will cancel and motor will act real funny, like drawing lots of current and no (or sluggish) rotation. If I got it right, it should behave almost identical to the tests you just ran.

Regards,

major


----------



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Mora,

That motor looks so much better painted, I'm tempted to try it with the old GE we have. 

Any tip on cleaning and painting. Any major hazards to the motor that need to be avoided?

Just out of interest, what do you have as a donor?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Any opinions on this Ebay find? 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320518037998&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It was pointed out to me by favguy.

At 300mm diameter and 450mm long it is physically too big for the MR2 but it may be suitable for another UK member.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

green caveman said:


> That motor looks so much better painted, I'm tempted to try it with the old GE we have.
> 
> Any tip on cleaning and painting. Any major hazards to the motor that need to be avoided?
> 
> Just out of interest, what do you have as a donor?


I cleaned most of the gunk with WD40-equivalent stuff found from local hardware store when the motor was still in original condition. When it was clean enough to handle, we took it apart leaving coils in place (we were afraid we could damage them by removing them).

We sanded casing clean with angle grinder and sanding discs like those in attached image. After sanding we cleaned everything carefully with alcohol. ID-plate became readable after rubbing it with acetone for a while. There is another image about it attached.

After alcohol cleaning motor got painted with anti-rust primer. Rattle can stuff. Then a single coat of red automotive paint was applied. Rattle-can stuff too. Looks better than the original at least, hehe. Sand bolts and nuts carefully to make them shine or replace them with new shiny ones.

note: coil insulation and everything inside (including armature) was painted red as we opened it. I wouldn't have painted it unless it has a protective meaning.

Motor runs so I guess we didn't do any harm by sanding the case and cleaning everything with WD40 equivalent. We didn't touch armature with chemicals or sanding things at all. You want to be careful with insulation rings at the terminals (washers, bakelite?). Also be careful when removing armature, you need to protect commutator.

Motor is going to a VW Golf '89 (rabbit). Motor came with cone-shaped mounting part which we are going to use. Drive end doesn't fit directly to transmission because of drive shaft getting on the way. It will fit after some work but that's another topic.


----------



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Any opinions on this Ebay find?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320518037998&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> It was pointed out to me by favguy.
> ...


That should be a great source of motors for EVs. Milk in the UK, up until about the mid-80's, was delivered almost universally to the doorstep, usually in an electric "Milk Float". 

Those were cool EV's and a great design for a vehicle that stopped at just about every door. By now most of the vehicles and motors have probably been scrapped. 

(The only thing that would beat it might be a horse and cart. Our old butcher tried using a van for deliveries, but the horse knew the route and would walk to the next address while he made the delivery so he used it in preference to the van).


----------



## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

I'm curious how high a voltage can you run a 36 volt forklift motor on if the brushes are not advanced?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jehan12413 said:


> I'm curious how high a voltage can you run a 36 volt forklift motor on if the brushes are not advanced?


Hi jeh,

I'd say it depends on the currents, the RPM and your expectations of brush service intervals, along with a lot to do with the original design. Pushing a common 36 volt fork lift motor to medium power (say 2 to 3 times nameplate rating) at high speed at 96 volts might cause a lot of arcing. I expect it would shorten brush life dramatically. It would likely do well on 48 volts and maybe 72.

Just my opinion,

major


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Any opinions on this Ebay find?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320518037998&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> It was pointed out to me by favguy.
> ...


I am thinking of taking a punt on this one and seeing if I can get it and then figure a way to use it.
But it seems to have 6 cables coming from it. What does this mean?









The seller states in the Q&A:


> HI I Have now found out that the motor is fitted to Milk Floats, I have a manual on the motor which i shall pass on to the winning bidder. I have been advise by Dairy Crest that the motor will run continus at 72v DC and will run at 96v DC with a 12:1 diff as per a type 2 milk float At 72v DC the RPM is 5600 and at 96v DC the RPM is 7400 RPM. The power of the motor is 82KW.


That doesn't sound too bad for voltage and rpm range.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> But it seems to have 6 cables coming from it. What does this mean?
> The seller states in the Q&A:
> That doesn't sound too bad for voltage and rpm range.


Hi Wood,

It looks like a six terminal series wound motor, similar to mora's motor. See posts #1020 ---1042 in this thread.

WRT to Q&A, 7400 RPM sounds way too fast for it. And 82 kW? Get real 

Planning on getting into the milk delivery business, are you?

Cheers,

major


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, I figured the 82kW was a red herring, however, 5600rpm at 72v seems drivable if it has the power to pull that in a car.

Does it look like it is worth a punt at that price?
Can it be much different to a fork truck motor of a similar size?

Not into milk, lactose intollerent!

Cheers major.


----------



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> And 82 kW?


Seems to be a missing decimal - should be 8.4kW if this page
is to be believed. 60-80 miles on a charge - but only at 20mph max. but some have been in service since the 1950's. 

We really did take a wrong turn somewhere in the area of delivery vehicles, mail trucks, etc.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Does it look like it is worth a punt at that price?
> Can it be much different to a fork truck motor of a similar size?


Hi Wood,

What was it? Like 100 BMU? (British Money Units) I suppose. Don't know what else is on the market over there. Or over here for that matter. But if it is like an 11 or 13 inch motor, then new about $3,000 (US Money Units).

Yeah, wild a$$ guess, about same as fork motor. Maybe better shaft and mount.

Cheers back to ya,

major


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Wood,
> 
> What was it? Like 100 BMU? (British Money Units) I suppose. Don't know what else is on the market over there. Or over here for that matter. But if it is like an 11 or 13 inch motor, then new about $3,000 (US Money Units).
> 
> ...


Yep, no bids and starting at 100 pounds.
If I go to a fork truck breaker to get one then it would be roughly the same distance away and 300 pounds removed from a truck, so condition and history will be about the same.

I figured that I could either mount it in the MR2 tunnel and shaft drive it to a diff or a small transaxle in place of the MR2's transverse unit or I can sell the MR2 and get a front engine rear wheel drive car (MGB?) that would be easier to convert.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well I got the motor, one bid, so £100. I am going to pick it up on Saturday.

I am figuring that I can test it at 12v by putting the field coils in series and then in series to the armature connections or have I got that wrong?


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

With these field windings:










Maybe it would be a good idea to carefully sand off the paint from the pole faces? Before the armature does it for you? 

My understanding is that the air gap is kept as small as possible. The paint won't interfere with the magnetic path, but it presumably won't be perfectly even, so even if the armature fits in there, it may scrape in some places. Others way more experienced with motors may have more to say.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am figuring that I can test it at 12v by putting the field coils in series and then in series to the armature connections or have I got that wrong?


I believe that's right, but it assuming that the field coils have similar numbers of turns, it would be super important to get the polarity of the field coils correct, so that the fields don't tell the armature to reverse every half revolution.

Actually, I may be totally wrong there... maybe reversing the fields would turn it from a 4-pole motor to a 2-pole motor or something, since the field coils are 90° apart, not co-incident. But this is not an AC induction motor, so that theory probably doesn't apply. [Edit: the commutator sets how the armature magnetic field changes, after all.]

What say the wise motor-heads?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mora said:


> Thanks a lot Major.
> 
> Terminal A is connected to two field coils in series and ends to terminal B. These coils are opposite each other. Same goes for terminals J and H.
> Terminals F and E connect to brushes the same way: F goes to brush and another brush 180 degrees apart. Same goes for terminal E.
> ...





major said:


> Hi mora,
> 
> I can help you. But I need you to do a couple of simple tests. Use a 6, 8 or 12 volt supply or battery.
> 
> ...





mora said:


> Looking at the DE side of motor:
> 
> Test #1 - counter-clockwise
> 
> ...





major said:


> Hi Mora,
> O.K. So the way I figure it:
> 
> Hi Speed Connection:
> ...


I am sort of going by this to get the gist of what I should do.

If in doubt I will try it as major described with just two of the coils at a time.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> If in doubt I will try it as major described with just two of the coils at a time.


Um, two pairs of wires, one pair to one field coil and one pair to the armature/brushes.

The point if Major's tests seems to be to establish which polarity the field coils (A/B, J/H on that motor) the fields need to be connected, when more than one field is used. Your initial post seemed to be to connect _both_ fields in series with the armature, when their polarity hadn't been determined yet. That sounds like a recipe for overcurrent or other bad things, even at 12 V (assuming you're using a battery; a battery charger should be sufficiently current limiting to be fairly safe, but it might still jerk around a lot if it tries to reverse every half revolution).

Actually, rather than attempt to reverse every half revolution, I think it would just attempt to rotate in both directions at once, stressing the armature, producing no back EMF, and therefore drawing a lot of current.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Maybe it would be a good idea to carefully sand off the paint from the pole faces? Before the armature does it for you?


There is pretty big airgap between poles and armature. As the motor was in working condition before removal, earlier use of motor would have left scratch marks already on pole faces, right?

Are those poles made of thin layers and not solid pieces? If they are layered and electrically isolated from each other the sanding process would make things worse (by damaging the insulation). It would still work but not as efficiently as before. I recall these things from smaller scale 3-phase motors, but have no idea if those apply in dc motors too. So this might not be true.


----------



## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

mora said:


> There is pretty big airgap between poles and armature. As the motor was in working condition before removal, earlier use of motor would have left scratch marks already on pole faces, right?
> 
> Are those poles made of thin layers and not solid pieces? If they are layered and electrically isolated from each other the sanding process would make things worse (by damaging the insulation). It would still work but not as efficiently as before. I recall these things from smaller scale 3-phase motors, but have no idea if those apply in dc motors too. So this might not be true.


They should have built the motor that way, to eliminate eddy currents, but sanding should not destroy the insulation between the metal sheets... It is probably made just like a sandwich, many layers of metal with some insulation between.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jockepocke said:


> They should have built the motor that way, to eliminate eddy currents, but sanding should not destroy the insulation between the metal sheets... It is probably made just like a sandwich, many layers of metal with some insulation between.


Hi jock,

Mora is correct. Sanding or machining the face of the laminated pole (or surface of the armature core) will smear the steel and defeat the purpose of the laminated structure on the surface. It's not huge and would likely be unnoticed, but in theory at least, should be avoided.

major


----------



## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

major said:


> Hi jock,
> 
> Mora is correct. Sanding or machining the face of the laminated pole (or surface of the armature core) will smear the steel and defeat the purpose of the laminated structure on the surface. It's not huge and would likely be unnoticed, but in theory at least, should be avoided.
> 
> major


But wouldn't you have to sand very very much in order to smear the metal and make contact? Of course it depends on the thickness of the metal sheets, but are they really much thinner than 1 mm? I mean, can sanding of the painting really create contact between the sheets? I doubt it, seeing as the manufacturers drill and machine in the process of making the motors.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jockepocke said:


> I mean, can sanding of the painting really create contact between the sheets? I doubt it, seeing as the manufacturers drill and machine in the process of making the motors.


Yes, it does make a more conductive path between adjacent laminations on the surface. And motor manufacturers avoid machining the surface in most cases. Sometimes it is necessary to remove varnish, but they attempt to stop short of actually hitting the steel. 

And yes, they do sometimes drill, like to balance the rotor. And this will cause some localized lamination shorting. But the affects are small.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Um, two pairs of wires, one pair to one field coil and one pair to the armature/brushes.
> 
> The point if Major's tests seems to be to establish which polarity the field coils (A/B, J/H on that motor) the fields need to be connected, when more than one field is used. Your initial post seemed to be to connect _both_ fields in series with the armature, when their polarity hadn't been determined yet. That sounds like a recipe for overcurrent or other bad things, even at 12 V (assuming you're using a battery; a battery charger should be sufficiently current limiting to be fairly safe, but it might still jerk around a lot if it tries to reverse every half revolution).
> 
> Actually, rather than attempt to reverse every half revolution, I think it would just attempt to rotate in both directions at once, stressing the armature, producing no back EMF, and therefore drawing a lot of current.


Thanks, yes, I wasn't clear about the tests at first but re-reading I can see what is happening and what major was looking for. I will do a simple 'does it run' test with one pair of coils and the armature and then come back for some information about how best to wire it to run properly.

I first figured on putting the coils in series but, of course, I have to know the polarity of them first.
Until I see it and test the coils there is nothing much to work with.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Woody,

You may be interested in this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=162756#post162756 zwmaster was testing a 6 terminal Kostov motor and had a heck of a time getting connections figured out.

major


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Congrats. on the purchase Woody, let us know how it looks once you've assessed it, not sure you should sell up your car and get another to suit the motor though! Seems a bit backwards..

Regards

Paul


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Woody,
> 
> You may be interested in this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=162756#post162756 zwmaster was testing a 6 terminal Kostov motor and had a heck of a time getting connections figured out.
> 
> major


Thanks major, I will give that a good read and try to understand it.



favguy said:


> Congrats. on the purchase Woody, let us know how it looks once you've assessed it, not sure you should sell up your car and get another to suit the motor though! Seems a bit backwards..
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paul


I am always open to options and I have issues with the MR2 that means I wouldn't miss it. It is more a case that I can't find a nice MGB that I can afford having sold one a few years ago that I keep it.
I am currently thinking of either getting the two piece drive shaft to clear the motor diameter or, the more likely solution is to mount the motor above the transmission and belt drive it.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Test #1: Connect F to battery positive, E to A, and B to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.
> 
> Test #2: Connect F to battery positive, E to J, and H to battery negative. Note direction of rotation.
> 
> ...


I have just done these tests, as mora has done, and marked my connections in the same manner.

Test 1: Clockwise seen from comm end, 965rpm.

Test 2: Clockwise seen from comm end, 925rpm.

Didn't get volt or amp readings as it is late and I was testing the motor in my bathrobe trying not to get dirty.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have taken the motor apart and have a few photos of the insides.

CE cap:









Armature:









Comm bars:









Field coils:

















Brush boxes:

















DE cap:

















DE bearing:








The bearing is held in the DE cap with a front and rear bearing cap. There is a grease nipple on the front and there is a good spattering of grease on the fan.

I was thinking of changing the DE bearing for a sealed one and then fabricating a front bearing cap from flat plate to reduce the cap dome to get more shaft out of it if I need to (and I am not sure I want to) turn down and shorten the shaft to fit.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

it is amazing that not much has changed in how to make electricity. its getts better through some mfg technology but the basics dont seem to change.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

? No one is making electricity here, though we are discussing how to use it.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

ok im busted. 

covert electricity into motion energy - did i get that right?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We'll go with that


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey all

Miss me yet?

Thought I'd better stop by and check up on Major. Had a quick thought or two for woodsmith while I'm here.

A sealed bearing is what you need and on the cap I'm thinking I'd machine the hole ID open bigger and make a sleeve for the shaft so your taper lock or hub could push against the bearings inner shoulder. It'd make it so it could never push forward and rub against the bearing retainer cap.

Looks like your brush ring area got coated with Hyd fluid so try and clean that up. Can of brake cleaner (not in your living room preferably would do the trick quick.

Why are those coils white? It doesn't look ashy but from pics hard to really tell. You have a later model and it has a bigger set of brushes so all in all not a bad motor.

I went back a few pages and thought I'd post a note on coating pole shoes. You really want the backs to be metal to metal with the housing but a light coat on the face (once coils are installed) offers rust protection and is not an issue. If in fact a drip forms, the steel armature body will wear it down in no time and really poses no problem. I will open a motor for an isulation tick but you probably wouldn't even hear a varnish drip rub. Try not to use solid color coatings though as it makes it tough to tell if things are getting hot as a general heads up.

Anyway, had a minute, wanted to see how bad you all were screwing my thread up Damn things become a monster, what you boys been feeding it anyway.

Have a great weekend.
Jim


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good to see you back here, I was begining to wonder if you were myth or legend! Or both! 


Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all
> 
> Miss me yet?
> 
> ...


Yep.
What I came up with is this:








The coupler will be a faux crank end to take the flywheel and will be secured to the shaft with two or three set screws set axially into the joint between the shaft and the coupler.
I have a new sealed bearing with a 50mm bore but the shaft shoulder is 2" so I have a sleeve there too.



Hi Torque Electric said:


> Looks like your brush ring area got coated with Hyd fluid so try and clean that up. Can of brake cleaner (not in your living room preferably would do the trick quick.


It was mainly just brush dust, but a bit tacky. I have brushed and rubbed most of it off and the parts are now fairly clean.



Hi Torque Electric said:


> Why are those coils white? It doesn't look ashy but from pics hard to really tell. You have a later model and it has a bigger set of brushes so all in all not a bad motor.


I am glad to hear that. jackbauer was playing devil's advocate and questioned its suitabilty and performance putting worries in my head.

The fields are painted in a thin grey/white paint over a fabric type tape. Not sure if that is good or bad a I can't see the windings and don't want to mess with it until I have good reason to.



Hi Torque Electric said:


> I went back a few pages and thought I'd post a note on coating pole shoes. You really want the backs to be metal to metal with the housing but a light coat on the face (once coils are installed) offers rust protection and is not an issue. If in fact a drip forms, the steel armature body will wear it down in no time and really poses no problem. I will open a motor for an isulation tick but you probably wouldn't even hear a varnish drip rub. Try not to use solid color coatings though as it makes it tough to tell if things are getting hot as a general heads up.
> 
> Anyway, had a minute, wanted to see how bad you all were screwing my thread up Damn things become a monster, what you boys been feeding it anyway.
> 
> ...


I certainly appreciate your input and any further comments you may have.
I am still uncertain as to how best to connect it. It has six cables, a pair for the armature and then two pairs each wired to opposing field coils.
Do I just put the whole lot in series making sure the fields are the right polarity? Do the fields go in parallel and then series to the armature?

What sort of voltage range should I look to running and what sort of output might I be looking at?
Low, medium and high (ish) ball park would be as specific as I would expect at this stage.

Many thanks for your input. major has been running the shop very well in your absence.


----------



## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Woodsmith

To you opening line, well, I sometimes ponder that myself

Couple of things, for some pros and cons.
Your fields are split so you should be able to get series or series / parallel but I can't track the cable in the pic so you'll have to play with it to get the connections right. I don't care for the cable through the housing thing (prefer terminal) as the cable tends to crack there so just take care not to stress them. The coils are wrapped in a thick course fiberglass insulating. I like a smaller tighter tape but this is another Yale like feature. Not sure why the white paint but no issue really.

I thought this was a Yale but see it's different than what I'm familure with. The comm looks soldered and not tig'ed but tough to tell from pics. If soldered high amps and heating may cause the solder to fling out and cause an open or cold solder connection. If the motor ever acts up shut it down and look for solder splatter around riser area of plate and housing. Resolder is cheaper than rewind is the caution here. Most if not all risers are tig'ed anymore making for a stronger connecting.

I'd care to guess that if advanced you'd be safe with 120, probably 156 volts. I'd think wiring your coils in series / parallel would be best. You'll have to fidget with it but I can start you out. 

Try Batt + to one of the "A" terminals say "A1"
Jump the other "A2" terminal with two of the field terminals(F1 and 3 for example). Put batt- on the other two field terminals and see how she runs. That would get you series / parallel if wired corectly.

Batt+ to A1, A2 to F1, F3 to F2, F4 to batt- would be series.

Just examples as I can not see how this is plumbed but hope it helps. Just do a quick on / off 12 volt test and see if it spins or freezes up (AKA lots of amps). Series will run slower and less amps than series / parallel as an FYI.

In a look back at your pics I see a pair of cables connected to the comm plate A terminals, do these jump from the coils? factor than in to my advise in wiring.

Jim


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Woodsmith
> 
> To you opening line, well, I sometimes ponder that myself






Hi Torque Electric said:


> Couple of things, for some pros and cons.
> Your fields are split so you should be able to get series or series / parallel but I can't track the cable in the pic so you'll have to play with it to get the connections right. I don't care for the cable through the housing thing (prefer terminal) as the cable tends to crack there so just take care not to stress them. The coils are wrapped in a thick course fiberglass insulating. I like a smaller tighter tape but this is another Yale like feature. Not sure why the white paint but no issue really.


The cables are starting to show signs of stress at the holes. I can take out the grommets and use adhesive heat shrink on it to cover the stressed area and then put the grommets back. Not sure of the best way to change it to a terminal bolt or even if it is worth doing if I am careful.




Hi Torque Electric said:


> I thought this was a Yale but see it's different than what I'm familure with. The comm looks soldered and not tig'ed but tough to tell from pics. If soldered high amps and heating may cause the solder to fling out and cause an open or cold solder connection. If the motor ever acts up shut it down and look for solder splatter around riser area of plate and housing. Resolder is cheaper than rewind is the caution here. Most if not all risers are tig'ed anymore making for a stronger connecting.


The motor is a Morrisons MD5 for a milkfloat.

This is an image from the milkfloat service manual showing the motor, an earlier single brush version.









This is the wiring diagram for the same.









I just had a closer look at it and the comm is soldered.




Hi Torque Electric said:


> I'd care to guess that if advanced you'd be safe with 120, probably 156 volts. I'd think wiring your coils in series / parallel would be best. You'll have to fidget with it but I can start you out.
> 
> Try Batt + to one of the "A" terminals say "A1"
> Jump the other "A2" terminal with two of the field terminals(F1 and 3 for example). Put batt- on the other two field terminals and see how she runs. That would get you series / parallel if wired corectly.
> ...


So, put everything in series and I get slow with less amps.
Put the fields in parallel and then in series with the armature and I get faster and higher amps.
Presumably I should just run in one configuraton and not wonder about having it switchable from one to the other.




Hi Torque Electric said:


> In a look back at your pics I see a pair of cables connected to the comm plate A terminals, do these jump from the coils? factor than in to my advise in wiring.
> 
> Jim


Those are just the fly leads fo the brushes. The connections are on the outside of the CE cap and there should be a cover over them but that will need to be made up.

These are the brush boxes when I removed them.









One of them was pretty square on to the comm, two were slightly at an angle and one was set at a bigger angle causing the brush to wear on a big slant.
You can just make out the top brush box in this image is more off set then the others.









When I put them back I figure I should set them square onto the comm?

Thanks again.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have a question for Jim or major or anyone else who can hazard a good guess.

I have asked at a local balancing shop to balance my armature, coupler and flywheel when it is all machined. The estimated at £100 to do the work but wanted to know what speed to balance at?
They are looking for the maximum speed I can run at.

What should I tell them for this armature?
I wouldn't want to overspeed it and have it explode in their shop!

Cheers.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

What did it say on the original label (if any)? otherwise it seems common for ~5000RPM as a safe redline for 11" motors.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> What did it say on the original label (if any)? otherwise it seems common for ~5000RPM as a safe redline for 11" motors.


There wasn't a label, well nothing with a spec on.

Based on calculations of tyre diameter of 30" on 7.00x16 and a 12:1 final drive ratio of the original milk float, it would have had a top speed of about 20-25mph direct drive at around 3000rpm.


----------



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Woody, 



Woodsmith said:


> I have asked at a local balancing shop to balance my armature, coupler and flywheel when it is all machined.


Why did you include the armature in there? Because you can - you have the motor in piece anyway, because it's a good idea, because you know it's unbalanced?

I think it's a good idea to balance the coupler, flywheel, (clutch, pressure plate), everything you add to the front of the motor, but I hadn't thought of balancing the armature along with that. I suppose I just assumed that was probably already balanced, that and I don't have the motor in pieces and wouldn't think it was worth dismantling just to balance the armature.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Woody,
> Why did you include the armature in there? Because you can - you have the motor in piece anyway, because it's a good idea, because you know it's unbalanced?
> 
> I think it's a good idea to balance the coupler, flywheel, (clutch, pressure plate), everything you add to the front of the motor, but I hadn't thought of balancing the armature along with that. I suppose I just assumed that was probably already balanced, that and I don't have the motor in pieces and wouldn't think it was worth dismantling just to balance the armature.


I am machining the shaft of the armature to squeeze the coupler inside the bearing. The bearing will have a bigger bore so I am adding a sleeve to make a bigger shoulder for the bearing to bear against.
The coupler will be located by set screws tapped in axially along the shaft to coupler joint to make threaded keyways.

All this work will have some effect on the armature and there is no other easy way to locate the coupler on a plain shaft to account for the screws and machining work.

So the armature is already out and in a crate with my college technician.

If you have a look at my MR2 thread from post 362 onwards you will see what I am planning. Page 19 for me but maybe page 36/37/38 if you are still on 10 posts per page.


----------



## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am machining the shaft of the armature to squeeze the coupler inside the bearing.
> 
> [..]
> 
> So the armature is already out and in a crate with my college technician.


Makes sense. I noticed that you had bearing/machining plans for the Milk Racer II motor but didn't catch on to the unbalancing act.

So for me, my original plan seems sufficient - balance everything that will be on the front of the motor shaft.


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So the armature is already out and in a crate with my college technician.


He must be pretty cramped in there. I hope you provided proper packaging so he won't bounce around and get speared by the armature. :lol:


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> They are looking for the maximum speed I can run at.
> 
> What should I tell them for this armature?
> I wouldn't want to overspeed it and have it explode in their shop!


Hi Woody,

Looked back at your photos. Armature is real well banded. More so than motors made these days. But unsure of aging and materials used back then. And the comm is always a concern. This was like a 13 inch diameter frame motor, right?

Off hand, I'd see no reason to run above 3600 RPM. It might take more. I kinda guess it would. But I'd stay on the safe side.

Looking back at it I see a nice film on the comm. Keep it there if you can. Keep oil (even from hands) off the comm. If you're set up, take the TIR around the comm. Within 0.002 inch, leave it. Out of round or high bar or other damage, turn it.

Cheers,

major


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers major, it is a 12" motor so close.

I will aim at 3600rpm as a max and see how it goes.

I will check the comm when it is on the lathe. 

Maybe the techician has had a look while he was in the crate?


----------



## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Woodsmith

always better to be safe than sorry but I'd care to guess that motor can safely do 5K RPM's. I'd also add that the 3600 is probable getting close to it's higher end of it's sweet spot where the motor will be at it's happiest.
Jim


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> always better to be safe than sorry


Words of wisdom. About time you showed up to take care of this thread you started. Maybe now I can get some time off 

1,089 Replies and 136,014 Views on this thread to date  You should get the trophy.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok I have an option on a motor that makes the warp13 look like a blender! Its 27" long and 12" diameter rated at 80v , series wound traction motor from a 13 ton electric forklift. The brushes are massive.Any thoughts?


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Ok I have an option on a motor that makes the warp13 look like a blender! Its 27" long and 12" diameter rated at 80v , series wound traction motor from a 13 ton electric forklift. The brushes are massive.Any thoughts?


Can i have it?
What's the weight of this monster?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ok I have an option on a motor that makes the warp13 look like a blender! Its 27" long and 12" diameter rated at 80v , series wound traction motor from a 13 ton electric forklift. The brushes are
> massive. Any thoughts?


 
Jack,

WOW

Don't let woodsmith see that, You know he likes those heavy 6 and 8 wheel trucks. Or next thing you know he will put wheels on his house to make a week end camper motorhome .

Dragster? Real Farm Tractor? Semi truck? City Bus? Attach it to a big lever and move the world?

You would need something that big just to haul around enough batteries to run it .

Jim


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ok I have an option on a motor that makes the warp13 look like a blender! Its 27" long and 12" diameter rated at 80v , series wound traction motor from a 13 ton electric forklift. The brushes are massive.Any thoughts?


stick it in a bmw with a built rear end and pump 2000A through it!!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Not sure of the weight. Its bolted to the drive axel from the forklift and sitting among a pallet of junk. I spotted it while touring a forktruck place today. I did get a 72/80v 11" hyster motor. Pics below. Its a heavy old thing. Only two terminals and from a brief inspection , may be compound wound. It runs fine at 12v in ccwde. Bad news is the shaft. But the price was right. They have HUGE electric trucks at this place ........

I'm going back next week so need to make a decision on the "beast" ........may be too big for a car........hmmm......pickup mabey ..........suv?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's not my cup of tea, but I would want to see that 12" x 27" long monster in a mud/show/off-road truck. Maybe in a lifted SUV, with 44" tires, and the motor in a doghouse right in the middle!  That's assuming it has double shafts. Link 'em to spooled diffs, and load it up with batteries - front and back. Who cares about range, it's about blasting through three feet of muck, and then climbing up the side of a mountain! 

Okay, seriously, it probably doesn't weigh much more than siamese 11s, and would have major cool factor in the right vehicle.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

yeh i'm tempted to get it and let the application find me lol. hey i got it! a humvee


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> ...hey i got it! a humvee


Now you're talking!  That's something I _could_ get into - without the huge mud tires. Rambo style! Military looking, with taste.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ok I have an option on a motor that makes the warp13 look like a blender! Its 27" long and 12" diameter rated at 80v , series wound traction motor from a 13 ton electric forklift. The brushes are massive.Any thoughts?


Drool!

I would be tempted by that with the axle.



Jimdear2 said:


> Jack,
> 
> WOW
> 
> ...


Todd and I could get together to build one of these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7o4ilmyUX8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP0gdmRlJgA&feature=related


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Drool!
> 
> I would be tempted by that with the axle.
> 
> ...


I love detroit diesels. Especially the compressed air starters. that axle is massive. its designed to take twin truck tyres on each side. I'd guess the ratio is a bit low for an ev. Its too good for a ratty pickup truck i think..........Only car i can think of would be a big merc or a 7 series beemer. Ideally i'd get it cromed up and build something like peed off pete there and run it on headways........a guy can dream


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Axle ratios can be changed.

If I had the spare money I would say 'Get it and we'll design something around it!'.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Todd and I could get together to build one of these...


 When do we start?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> When do we start?


As soon as jackbauer gets the motor and axle and ships it out to one of us.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Super dragster bicycle. Pusher trailer carries motor and 3 tons of batteries to run it, pushing bicycle with rider controlling it.  I know a Canadian that would probably ride it.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack, 

See what you started. 

Tell you what we will do. We build a 7000 lb pound super modified (3.5t class in Europe and UK) pulling tractor. No batteries installed just lots of lead for weight and run the motor say at 440 volts. 

Now you only have to go 300 feet when pulling so we put a 350 foot extension cord hooked to a truck with a 440 volt DC 1 megawatt diesel powered generator. and a BIG contactor.

Crank up the diesel and hit a button . . . Hang on Nellie

Might only make one run but what a run that would be. 

I megawatt equals 1300 or so horse power so it should be competitive


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

I picked up a motor last week (11.5" GE Series), which I hope to use in a direct drive in a 76 Spitfire. I would appreciate any advice/comments folks could offer (thanks to Forkliftguy, Bottomfeeder, Peggus and Toddshotrods for the generous guidance you all have offered already!). Attached as a word file, please find a copy of a series of emails sent by Forkliftguy--he is selling a beautifully rebuilt version of the same motor in the Classified, and has provided great info for me on the steps I should take. 

--what is the best way to clean the awful gunk out of this this beasty? It was in a lift shop before being junked, and they reported that it ran great, but had completely blown the hydraulic system. This stuff is gross, but the varnish on the windings seems pretty good to me--I don't want to damage it by using anything too aggressive to clean it out.

--Forkliftguy offers good advice that I should have the armature balanced and tested (see answers document attached). However, my comm shows little pitting or grooving, and someone wrote "BAL" on the armature--I believe this motor may have been rebuilt relatively recently, and am leaning towards not doing this step for now (I was quoted $200+ by the local shop that all the forklift guys go to). The money is cheap if for the work if it is needed, but I am pretty cheap myself...


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Oops, hit the enter key, but I have a couple more questions...

--I read elsewhere here that a light touch with emery paper might be helpful for comms with minor pitting/grooves. Is this a good idea, or not advised? Also, is it recommended to clean the armature in any way, and if so using what?

--Forkliftguy offered great guidance also on advancing the brushes (I also reviewed Jackbauers excellent videos). He suggested either drilling the fiberglass ring or tapping the body of the motor with new holes. I am leaning towards drilling the fiberglass (though it will complicate getting the brushes back in), but also am thinking that drilling the comm head cover could be an alternative--just drill baby, drill, with no tapping needed, but I notice that there is a bit of reinforcement in the casting near the current holes (see picture in previous post). Is this perhaps an even easier idea?

--I need to replace the bearing in the DE end with a sealed one (Forkliftguy told me the exact part to use--great help! I definitely owe him a six-pack if I am ever near Niagra Falls), and advised me how to put a retainer in. How should I drive out the current bearing--a big pipe and big hammer are my usual solutions, but do I need to be more careful?

--Any problem if I have to cut part of the flanges off the DE plate? I may have problems fitting the motor as is, and I would love to cut a little weight out of this motor anyway (220 lbs!).

thanks all!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Ellanmel

You'll want to remove those nasty field coils and clean all the parts individually and welcome to my world Just remove the 8 bolts and use a screwdriver to pry loose the coils once the bolts are out. Chances are they'll be varnished in (heating in sun or any heat will soften it). Be careful not to gouge the insulation. Coils look great (under the grim) as does the armature. There is more than likely shims behind the pole shoes. Clean gently and make sure to re-install them.

As to the armature, it's balanced so don't waste money there. Most lift motors have a hard life and with the crap you have in that motor I'd say you have at least some minor commutation irritation lets call it. You'll need a tough cleaner and I'd go with some brake cleaner (outside, away from flame and let it dry well, then blow it out (outside) to remove any carbon dust. If you decide to have one thing done professionaly have the comm turned and undercut by someone who does it. You screw up the armature and that nice cheap core is a boat anchor!

The steel banding on those armatures is soldered on and if that armature gets hot it'll spit that solder off and the banding can unravel. Not pretty, looks like a 10 year old was playing wire feed welding for a week. Fiberglass is a better non-conductive banding, anyway just a heads up there, I've seen it, it's not pretty.

On advancement, buy a drill and tap and do it right. You might have to borrow or buy (10 bucks harbor freight) a transfer punch set as well. That plate has windows built in so you'll need to drill fit through holes (in line with plate mounting holes) or cut a punch in half to fit into the window. This way you know everything is true and will not be out and you get the satisfaction of a job well done

Cutting excess off the drive plate is not an issue also.

As further note, drilling the ring may seem easy but then you need to make new leads and the brushes can get close to window edges so IMO it's tit for tat except I don't have to redrill a new brush ring if I scrotch this one in the future. If you break your plate you probably have other more pending issues 

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Jim--thanks for the guidance. It is great to hear from the person who started this monster thread! 

I have a drill press, and will drill and tap the new holes in the field coil. Thanks for the suggestion of usng the transfer punches--that will help get the proper placement for the new holes. Wish me luck!


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Elanmel

Yeah, life kind of kicked me in the balls and I had to go lick my wounds 
I could free help myself to death and honestly almost did so have to be a bit more stingier with my time per se.

That said I love the DIY and why I started this thread as it is my belief we need to be doing things better and this is an area I can help do that. Everyone has a first time in everything we do with some having better learning curves than others (base jumping seems it'd have a hard learning curve for failing, lol. This is somewhat easy and if your holes are not perfect you can enlarge the comm plate holes a bit. The radius lip will hold it centered so even if you had to slot the plate holes you'll get it to fit (unless you're someone who really shouldn't be doing DIY  Just joking but in huge ways each of us must look at our abilities and tools and equipment available and weigh out the pro's and con's. My sister uses a phrase, do what you do best and pay for the rest and it's somewhat true in a lot of ways, but then she really has no talent and does like to shop...
FWIW, everyone screws up and I could shed some stories of things I've did but I'd rather not talk about it, but I am open to admiting I come from the shcool of hard knocks
Anyway, best of luck

Jim


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Welcome back Jim. Just wanted to thank you and those like you on this forum that have selflessly shared your time and knowledge. I have read and reread most of the posts on this forum and have learned something new each time. So even if you never contributed another single thing, you can be sure that you have taught many of us "how to fish" so to speak. Thanks again. Norm


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

I cracked a terminal trying to get the old 1/0 wires off my motor. Advice request for the group--can I fix this or do I need to replace the terminal? If replace, where do you get these parts? 

And how should I do this properly--the nut just spins the terminal when I try to loosen it, and there is not much purchase to catch the knurled end of the metal part of the terminal. I am trying to avoid clamping onto the plastic terminal insulator, but maybe that is what I have to do??


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Elanmel

Those GE molded terminals are a bit of a pain. I have some nice take offs I could get to you. I'll need freight and a few bucks as they are actually fairly pricy. Contact me off list.
[email protected]

Have a busy day so probably be Monday before i could ship. You don't have to remove those if they are not shorting to ground as an FYI.
Jim 
elanmel








Junior Member


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Final count: one trashed, one cracked but intact and two okay. What worked: soak with liquid wrench, hold wire lead with locking plier and twist bolt off. 

Jim, thanks for the offer of replacement parts. You've got mail!


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

hey, this might be random, but im preparing my donor car to be converted ( the engine is coming out tomorrow). and ive been looking at this forklift motor, it seems to be around 10-11 inches diameter, and i have no clue on length, but it seems to be stubby for its diameter. maybe a 14" length. my donor car is a 1999 Hyundai accent gsi. i chose it because its very light, and decent aerodynamics. my question is ( i only have enough money to use a forklift/salvage motor) what size motor roughly should i be using for this conversion? is the one i was looking at way to big?? btw the forklift is extremely similar to this :http://www.clarkforkliftparts.info/images/fo.jpg

except its not a clark, i forgot the company it is, it has a y in it 

thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yale? Hyster?


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

I've been lurking around here off and on for quite a while and I figured this topic was as good a place as any for my first post.

For my first build; or builds I should say, I'm planning on lawnmower stuff. I've got a hold of a free riding lawnmower that is in working condition except for the ICE. I've also got another bigger mower deck coming that I'm planning to make into a stand alone deck that can be pulled behind or pushed in front of another vehicle.

I'm planning on either a 36v or 48v system. 

I'm currently scouring the countryside for junked forklifts to get the goodies out of them and think I've found one that looks promising.

It's a Clark stand up forklift and it doesn't appear to be too old at all. What worries me about that is if it may possibly be an AC motor? I haven't been able to get a very close look at it yet and couldn't see the nameplate to read the information.

I'm going to call the guy today and see if he will sell the thing for cheap or if he'll just let me scavenge bit's and pieces.

In any case, any reccomendations are appreciated. I'll be starting a build thread soon.

Attached is a pic of the motor I'm looking at right now.

I can machine, fabricate and weld just about anything; however, I'm electrically ignorant. I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous at this point. I'm hoping this forum will cure me of this!


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Don't worry, it's a DC series motor. Should be just fine. 36 volts should be perfect. Not too much and not too little. I am looking for one myself to convert my YardMachine into an electric. I got it cheap and it too has a dead engine. Time to rip it out. Only after I get my motor. I may go another route but for now I am looking for a motor like what you just found.


Thanks for your reply!
I know that photo isn't much to go on, but would you have any guess as to the brand of that motor? Maybe I could find some specs on the net.

I started a build thread here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183934#post183934
Any further advice or comments are very welcome.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

OBeer-WAN-Kenobi said:


> I know that photo isn't much to go on, but would you have any guess as to the brand of that motor? Maybe I could find some specs on the net.


Hi OBeer,

Prestolite used to make that motor for Clark, years ago. It may be a Prestolite. But maybe also made by ADC. It doesn't look like a GE, but those come in different flavors. You'll likely never find any specs on fork motors as they are custom made for the OEM. You're lucky if there is even a voltage on the nameplate.

Regards,

major


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

major said:


> Hi OBeer,
> 
> Prestolite used to make that motor for Clark, years ago. It may be a Prestolite. But maybe also made by ADC. It doesn't look like a GE, but those come in different flavors. You'll likely never find any specs on fork motors as they are custom made for the OEM. You're lucky if there is even a voltage on the nameplate.
> 
> ...


Well, hopefully it's good. Just called the guy and bought the whole lift for $400. I should be able to get most of my money back by selling scrap and the tines. No risk no reward right? 

By my research I thought it looked like an ADC as well. I'll find out shortly!


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

major said:


> Hi OBeer,
> 
> Prestolite used to make that motor for Clark, years ago. It may be a Prestolite. But maybe also made by ADC. It doesn't look like a GE, but those come in different flavors. You'll likely never find any specs on fork motors as they are custom made for the OEM. You're lucky if there is even a voltage on the nameplate.
> 
> ...


Hi major,
I took the motor out yesterday and it is a Prestolite. On the tag it says:
Part # Part#
MGT-4012. 41555-00
36 volts class h
Serial# 4-z

Is there a good way to find out more info on this motor with that info? Especially in case I need parts...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

OBeer-WAN-Kenobi said:


> Hi major,
> I took the motor out yesterday and it is a Prestolite. On the tag it says:
> Part # Part#
> MGT-4012. 41555-00
> ...


Hi OBeer,

MGT type. Kool  Good motor design. 33 slot, 5 inch core stack. Series wound. 7.2 inch diameter frame. 8 big brushes 

Forklift repair houses or maybe motor rebuilders they use are the places to go for parts. Likely you won't need any.

major


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

Thanks major!
Do you know where I can find out power ratings and rpms and such?

Ready for the specs on the second motor? I just pulled it out....
Prestolite
Part # Part #
MGT-4011. 41519
36/48 volt DC class h
Serial:03Z
Rating: AU. 1969M

Your info is greatly appreciated!


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## tallhorseman (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow, my brain's about to explode!!! Two days ago I decided to make my Volkswagon trail-buggy (My Avatar) into an electric. I thought it was an original idea and that I was going to have to go far and wide for information concerning such, but dammit if THIS THREAD didn't prove me wrong. I REALLY, REALLY, ten times over, appreciate all of the info on this site. You guys are AWE-SOME!!! Now I'm going to read some more threads.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

tallhorseman said:


> Wow, my brain's about to explode!!! Two days ago I decided to make my Volkswagon trail-buggy (My Avatar) into an electric. I thought it was an original idea and that I was going to have to go far and wide for information concerning such, but dammit if THIS THREAD didn't prove me wrong. I REALLY, REALLY, ten times over, appreciate all of the info on this site. You guys are AWE-SOME!!! Now I'm going to read some more threads.


Welcome.

Don't forget to start a conversion thread so we can see what you are doing and share information.


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Obeer, Major

Bummer aspect to that MGT-4012 (if this is the motor I think it is)(been a while since I've built them) is it has no drive bearing  You should have room to machine a bearing journal in the plate and shaft but the motor is going to growl like a pig if you try to run it as is (if removed from the gearbox (am I right Obeer, you pull and try to run it yet?  Again going from memory this will have a long male splined shaft which has a tendency to wear badly (at least from my customers). You'll need to figure out how to adapt to that shaft and modify a bearing for this to be doable.

I grew up on Prestolites and love most their motors and this is not a motor issue but more a lift design issue. I used to have a ton of OEM number to manf number as well as motor images implanted in my brain but as I do them less and get older they tend to blend together so as stated I "believe" the above to be true (it's the 4012 thing that raises the red flags)(I can tell you you're at least lucky it's not a GE as that style of GE sucked wad 

This motor looks as if it saw a fairly dirty enviroment and may have had some hyd leakage which can cause grooving / streaking on the commutator and brushes. If you grab a pic of the brush / comm area with the cover band removed I'll put an eyeball on it for you and see how she looks. I would enjoy some feedback on my accessment of this motor to see if I still got it or whether I need to bow my head in shame 

Jim Husted


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## OBeer-WAN-Kenobi (May 28, 2010)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Obeer, Major
> 
> Bummer aspect to that MGT-4012 (if this is the motor I think it is)(been a while since I've built them) is it has no drive bearing  You should have room to machine a bearing journal in the plate and shaft but the motor is going to growl like a pig if you try to run it as is (if removed from the gearbox (am I right Obeer, you pull and try to run it yet?  Again going from memory this will have a long male splined shaft which has a tendency to wear badly (at least from my customers). You'll need to figure out how to adapt to that shaft and modify a bearing for this to be doable.
> 
> ...


Jim, You are correct indeed, after I pulled it I noticed a seal but no bearing so I didn't try to run it and I came up with the same idea you did about machining the endplate to add a bearing. The seal diameter on the motor shaft is nice at almost precisely 1" so a bearing should press right on. In any case, I have since decided to save this traction motor for another project and am actually using the second (hydraulic) motor I outlined above for my lawnmower project. My build thread is here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/obeers-lawncare-lawn-mowing-ev-s-45461.html

Besides having rusty brush springs and one seized bearing (from sitting around) the motors are both in beautiful shape with hardly any wear on the comms. I had a local guy here take a look at them for me and after replacing the bearing he charged me $30. So, I'm into my motors (and an EV-100 controller) for $430 before any return on scrap from the forklift. Speaking of the controller, if you know which kind it is by the pictures in my thread I'm trying to figure out what manual/schematics to use.

Hey, and if you have any other info that wasn't outlined on these motors I'd be glad to hear it.

Thanks!


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## mdane (Jun 23, 2010)

We just got a EV100 and GE SepEx motor running in an old bug. We did it at 48 volts but now want to go higher. It's got regen braking, field weakening and an over-ride contactor. We're just starting to figure out what sort of performance we can get.

Jim Husted: I've seen your invaluable posts and pictures on advancing brushes and will eventually do that. The controller is rated at 84V and the motor is 48V. 

What's the downside of going to the highest rating on the controller but over the motor rating without advancing the brushes? Are we sacrificing efficiency and generating extra heat? Will we do any damage if we don't let it get too hot (it's stone cold under 48v).

thanks,

Mark


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Mark,



mdane said:


> What's the downside of going to the highest rating on the controller but over the motor rating without advancing the brushes? Are we sacrificing efficiency and generating extra heat? Will we do any damage if we don't let it get too hot (it's stone cold under 48v).


That sounds to be a cool build. From what I understand the problem is that at higher voltages the motor will spark excessively. There's no clear rule on when that will occur. Some have reported running neutral brushes as high as 120V without a problem, but most advance long before that.

However, with regen you can't advance the brushes. When running in regen the fields are reversed and so advancing the brushes would be the equivalent of retarding them during regen.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Hey again,

I came back with another motor. It's an old Asea (thrige-titan) series motor with nameplate voltage of 106V. Nameplate also reads 3200 rpm and 64A. It weighs about 150 lbs. Is this any good for ev use?
I have a feeling that dc motor rated for 106V isn't too good choice for ev use. But it was going to get scrapped so I bought it dirt-cheap (and got lots of dirt with it).
Commutator is good, brushes look good and are in pairs of two, it came with nice coupler and it can be mounted from its "legs".

That red-painted, 100kg Baker motor was few centimeters too long for our conversion, so I had to keep searching for another motor. I didn't lose that motor though, I'll put it in another car someday.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Got some cleaning to do. Looks like a compound wound with interpoles. 106 volts is a constant voltage rating and it can handle more but for less time. Clean it up and see if it will run but use 12 volts for testing.


Yes, it definitely needs good cleaning. There was no airgap between armature and poles, it was all filled with that dirt.
Nameplate says it is series motor, but I was confused with those smaller poles between bigger ones. The pump motor in the same forklift was very similar like this drive motor but didn't have brush pairs and had higher amperage rating. Its nameplate clearly stated compound wound.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

That dirt was really bad and it was all over the motor. I got most of it away already. Brushes were stuck at their sockets and some brushes were more worn than others. 12V test next I guess. Do I need to connect those two little wires at all?

Coupler wants to stay at the drive end. It really won't come out. Could it have threads? We've tried to pull it out but no luck so far.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi mora,

Looks like a series wound motor with interpoles. Nice machine 



mora said:


> Do I need to connect those two little wires at all?


I don't think so. Likely is a thermal sensor.



> Coupler wants to stay at the drive end. It really won't come out. Could it have threads? We've tried to pull it out but no luck so far.


It would be unusual to be threaded onto the shaft for a reversible motor. Likely a spline or keyway which is rusted in place. Maybe a gear puller and heat will break it loose. If not, you may have to cut or grind it so you can spread it.

major


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

I would like to ask for some guidance from the group. I have an 11.5" GE motor which I will be using in my Spitfire conversion. I do not have a shaft coupler for the motor, and have not been able to find one anywhere that fits my shaft (1 5/16", 15 splines from a Clark EC500 forklift, the same motor Forkliftguy is selling!). This includes digging through 100's of old ones at Berns forklift parts in Long Beach, calling forklift parts places all over the place, and checking with clutch/pto parts places... 

I need to either (a) have a coupler machined or (b) machine the shaft from my armature to fit a standard coupler (e.g., 1" with 1/4 keyway). Any advise which is better/cheaper? If I machine the shaft, should I remove it from the armature, or can the whole thing be turned? How do you remove these things anyway--I love my BAH, but probably want to be more careful here! 

BTW, I will be connecting this in direct drive to the 1" shaft on the rear takeoff/shifter unit from my gearbox (as in Bottomfeeder's new design), which I will also need to machine to include a keyway...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not turn the shaft? Jim often does. I actually think clutchless is easier than messing with a clutch, but that also depends on how well the transmission shifts without clutching.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This place is so interesting. The man said he's running direct drive and you guys are discussing whether he should have a clutch or not - *with his transmission!*  Soon the forklift motor thread will be another debate on direct drive vs transmission.

I agree with JRP3, turn the shaft. That seems to be the most popular route, used even by the top builder. Since he is connecting it to another shaft the splines are completely unnecessary. If it's like mine they seem to have been designed for a slip-fit, which is not ideal for locking a coupler to. Do-able, but not ideal.

_NOTE: I'm just having fun, and not mad at or trying to start anything with anybody. If you read my first paragraph and your feathers got ruffled, you misunderstood me - it was internet humor, hence the smiling faces. _


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

major said:


> It would be unusual to be threaded onto the shaft for a reversible motor. Likely a spline or keyway which is rusted in place. Maybe a gear puller and heat will break it loose. If not, you may have to cut or grind it so you can spread it.


We tried heat + gear puller before, even used freeze spray for shaft but it didn't move at all. There is a small hole near DE plate in coupler which doesn't go through the whole coupler. There was a small lock pin in it but it came out. Needs cutting then.



gottdi said:


> What is the diameter and length of that motor? looks long and skinny compared to many.


It is 10 inch in diameter and about 17½ inches long.



gottdi said:


> Replace those end bearings too while you have it apart. Paint the case before you put it back together. Paint it a cool color to match your ride.


Will have to take it apart again to replace bearings. It made some noise during 12V testing. Guess bearings are bad. Also good time for removing old paint and re-painting.



gottdi said:


> Have you sent and email to Jim Husted yet? He is the Guru of motors here. Do you have photos of the name plate? The coms look good. Got some close ups of the com? We all like photos and it really helps from a distance to help figure out and trouble shoot. Jim will agree. He requires it.


I don't want to put any load on him, I've read he is a busy man, hehe. I'll post here instead. I'm in no hurry anyway. I'll post close-up pictures of commutator when I find new bearings for it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jim always answered my annoying questions. He even told me to remind him to answer again later if he needed more time to get the answer from a current or future project that was similar. I think he likes talking about motors.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> This place is so interesting. The man said he's running direct drive and you guys are discussing whether he should have a clutch or not - *with his transmission!*  Soon the forklift motor thread will be another debate on direct drive vs transmission.


Just checking if anyone was paying attention  OK, I missed it  I thought when he said:


> BTW, I will be connecting this in direct drive to the 1" shaft on the rear takeoff/shifter unit from my gearbox


, "gearbox" meant transmission. I guess I don't actually understand how he's hooking this up. "1" shaft on the rear takeoff/shifter unit"?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Just checking if anyone was paying attention  OK, I missed it  I thought when he said:, "gearbox" meant transmission. I guess I don't actually understand how he's hooking this up. "1" shaft on the rear takeoff/shifter unit"?


Uh huh.  I think he's using the output shaft of the transmission, probably with a tailshaft housing. That piece is probably where the shifter mounted. That's my guess anyway. Remember, I was going to run the old 3spd tail shaft on the Inhaler. I even modeled the adapter assembly to mate the trans output shaft (cut short and keyed) to the motor output shaft.

Trying to refresh your memory - make sure you read _all_ the words from now on.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm subscribed to over 700 threads. You expect me to actually read all the words?


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## bobby02 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi

I have this forklift used motor

*DC 36/48 volt Motor*
*16 1/2" long on case*
*24" over all length*
*12 " diameter*
*Spline shaft 1 1/2" Diameter*
*Estimated 250 lbs.*

*I am trying to used it for a ev conversion.*

*DO you think it is appropiate or do I have the wrong motor?*

*I appreciated your help*​


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

bobby02 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have this forklift used motor
> 
> ...


Sounds like the latest purchase from mhwc on Ebay. That is exactly how they post their specs. Most likely a GE motor?

Either way it sounds like you have what you need to get the job done, from a small car to a small truck, you should be set. The only issue you may have is connecting that splined shaft, but there are a few of us around here doing the same with those motors. You need to figure out whether it's series or SepEx as well.

Got any pics?


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## bobby02 (Jun 23, 2010)

Thank you for your reply.

Good news

Going to checking if my is a series or SepEx.

Now I'm going to go learn the diference between the two.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

bobby02 said:


> ...Going to checking if my is a series or SepEx...


You can look at the pictures on Jim's site to see what the coils look like in each one, then remove the comm end cover (metal screen or band over large ports in motor case) and see what you coils look like.

The issue with SepEx (thin wired coils - like spaghetti) is a controller needs to be programmed to match it to operate it safely, but there is no information (field map) available for these old forklift motors. If you do have one there is some more info on it in threads here. Let's see what you have first.

If you have a series motor (large flat wire bands on coils) you'll have a huge variety of controllers to choose from, depending on what your needs are.

Welcome to the site.


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## bobby02 (Jun 23, 2010)

thank you for your reply

Going to check it out hopefully it's a series I have my finger cross


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my earlier post--Toddshotrods got it right: the Spitfire transmission has a 12" rear takeoff unit that houses the shifter and speedometer connection behind the gearbox. I am planning on using just this rear section in my direct drive setup, to provide an easy connection for the speedometer and also to essentially extend the driveshaft so my motor will fit under the front "hump"...

Thanks for the advice re: driveshaft places and bearing shops. I made several drop-ins to local places, but still no love for my splined 1 5/16" 15 splined shaft. I am however, getting faster at counting splines on shaft couplings!

I think I will go with a straight 1" shaft coupler, and have the coupler machined to fit the splines on my shaft--my motor shaft has a 3/8" threaded internal hole, and I'm concerned if I turn the shaft to 1" with a 1/4" keyway the remaining shaft will be a little thin. A local machinist did say he could turn the shaft without removing it from the armature, which would save at least one step, and I am sure it would be a little simpler to do it this way...

Of course, the Browning 1" straight coupler is only 2" OD, so there may be a risk when it is machined to 1 5/16" splines on my shaft. I guess there is no way to know how it will all work until I try it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

elanmel said:


> Sorry for the lack of clarity in my earlier post--Toddshotrods got it right: the Spitfire transmission has a 12" rear takeoff unit that houses the shifter and speedometer connection behind the gearbox. I am planning on using just this rear section in my direct drive setup, to provide an easy connection for the speedometer and also to essentially extend the driveshaft so my motor will fit under the front "hump"...
> 
> Thanks for the advice re: driveshaft places and bearing shops. I made several drop-ins to local places, but still no love for my splined 1 5/16" 15 splined shaft. I am however, getting faster at counting splines on shaft couplings!
> 
> ...


Who are you getting to machine the female spline pattern into the coupler? That's a pretty serious operation, that requires evidently rare machinery. The best solution I came up with for this is to have them cut by water jet, but I was looking into building hubs and you need a coupler. I didn't forget about you, by the way, from when we talked about this in PM. I just haven't made much progress on it. There is a setup cost for water jet, but I can include as many patterns as possible in the setup and have them all cut at once. I just haven't had time to create the digital models for what I need (slip and press-fit for the 1.625x25T version) then figure out how I could accurately accomodate others like yours in the same setup.

Another option is a stepped coupler. Maybe 1-1/8 to 1"? That would leave a little more meat on the motor shaft. Also, how deep is the bolt hole? Is it possible to cut the keyway back past the bolt hole depth, and use a deeper coupler?


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

"


toddshotrods said:


> Who are you getting to machine the female spline pattern into the coupler? That's a pretty serious operation, that requires evidently rare machinery. The best solution I came up with for this is to have them cut by water jet, but I was looking into building hubs and you need a coupler. I didn't forget about you, by the way, from when we talked about this in PM. I just haven't made much progress on it. There is a setup cost for water jet, but I can include as many patterns as possible in the setup and have them all cut at once. I just haven't had time to create the digital models for what I need (slip and press-fit for the 1.625x25T version) then figure out how I could accurately accomodate others like yours in the same setup."
> 
> The guys at a local bearing shop (Bearings & Drives in El Monte) recommended a local guy--very limited English, but he said no problem and they specifically said at the Bearing shop that he does good work. I didn't ask how he was going to do it, and I didn't see a water jet in his small shop. He wants $60 for the machining (plus $33 for the coupler, and a small charge to put a keyway in my gearbox shaft).
> 
> ...


"

The bolt hole is deep (1.5"). 

Ruland has a stepped coupler like that (1 1/8 x 1" keyed). I focused on the Browning (they don't seem to have the stepped ones) because the Ruland has a smaller OD (1 7/8"). 

However, I just did some more careful measurements, and if I turned the shaft it looks like I could get 1 1/8". If I did a 1/8" deep keyway, I would have a 1/4" thin section of the shaft left at the keyway, with the bolt hole. Of course, putting a threaded rod in the bolt hole and a longer key to fill the keyway would probably help with strength. Thanks, I think this might be the way to go, unless you are able to get the waterjet option organized for multiple pieces. Either way, I will try to speak with another machinist or two this week before I finalize my choice.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

This may be a silly question but if you are making an adapter why not go for a taper?

Elanmel has a nice threaded hole to pull the taper in

From my experience you can put much higher loads through a taper than through any type of key or spline


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Duncan,

I tried to look around this site and on some of the supplier webpages to see examples of Taper adaptors/couplers, but don't really understand what this option entails. 

Are you suggesting creating a coupler that would screw into the threaded hole on the end of my armature, rather than something that would fit over my splines? I see the term used in many posts, but don't understand what this would look like...

thanks,
Elan


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## elanmel (May 3, 2010)

Here is a picture of the offending shaft, BTW. Again, I appreciate any ideas out there (or if anyone happens to have a coupler from a Clark EC500 forklift lying around...).


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

My Nissan 10" forklift motor had a tailshaft, with the same splines as the mainshaft.

The tailshaft had a drum brake. I pulled the drum brake off and used the female spines from it for the basis of a coupler.

Works great!

-ben


300mpg.org


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## imknot (Jul 22, 2010)

Have you visited any clutch and brake shops. or maybe even a forklift repair shop?


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## imknot (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi Jim, I am a newbie here. I have read several pages of the beginning of this thread. I have bought a donor car (85 Fiero), and am pursuing a motor. I have some machinist skills. So what I am asking is within my ability. I just don't know if it will achieve the results I seek. I would like to replace the steel housing of a motor with a machined aluminum housing complete with cooling / heat sink fins. I figure the magnetic force is generated in the field coils and concentrated with the steel pole pieces, So an aluminum frame should not affect performance. Am I correct in this assumption?


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## Hi Torque Electric (Dec 23, 2007)

Hey Imknot

The steel of the housing is part of the magnetics so do not replace with an AL version. I have seen some Lansing Bagnal motors that have AL housing/s but they are just a shell lining up the inner laminated steel shell that was part of the pole shoes. Anyway, it's a weight you have to deal with.

Hope this helps.
Jim


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## imknot (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Imknot
> 
> The steel of the housing is part of the magnetics so do not replace with an AL version. I have seen some Lansing Bagnal motors that have AL housing/s but they are just a shell lining up the inner laminated steel shell that was part of the pole shoes. Anyway, it's a weight you have to deal with.
> 
> ...


Ok, Thanks Jim. It was not only the weight I was thinking about heat dissipation.
Alan


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

imknot said:


> ...I would like to replace the steel housing of a motor with a machined aluminum housing complete with cooling / heat sink fins...





Hi Torque Electric said:


> ...The steel of the housing is part of the magnetics so do not replace with an AL version...


Ha! So much for great minds huh?!  That was my bright idea as well, when I got my feet wet in the EV thing. I waited a while before I asked, but Major ultimately had the pleasure of crushing my billet dreams.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

imknot said:


> Ok, Thanks Jim. It was not only the weight I was thinking about heat dissipation.
> Alan


Forced air (a blower through a tube into the comm end ports) is the commonly used method to keep your cool.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yup, cooling the outside of a series DC doesn't do a lot from what I understand since it doesn't do much to effect the heat of the rotor.


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## imknot (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the great info. You guys've saved me a ton of work chasing a wild goose.
Alan


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

ok two separate questions. First i have an option on two 4.9kw 48v nissan traction motors. About 7" diameter. Thinking of using them in series/parallel arrangement on a bike conversion. Would this be workable?

while i was at the forklift place i noticed they were breaking a lansing ac forklift. drive motors is an open frame ac induction about 13" long and 10.5" diameter. The controller looks just like the curtis ac sold by hpev. its a 72v system. Would this be any good for a car?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> while i was at the forklift place i noticed they were breaking a lansing ac forklift. drive motors is an open frame ac induction about 13" long and 10.5" diameter. The controller looks just like the curtis ac sold by hpev. its a 72v system. Would this be any good for a car?


72 volts is going to be pretty weak in a car, can you get the model number of the controller to see if it can go higher? Should be 1238- something


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Picked up my two drive motors from the forklift guys today. Need a bit of work. One spins fine but the bearings are tight , the other didnt spin due to stuck brushes. So i pulled apart the stuck brush one. The swines had put a circlip on the shaft for the de bearing and hidden it behind an oil seal. Thankfully i didnt wind the puller on too hard Had to use the old woodscrew trick to get the seal out!.

So the idea is to use em in series-parallel on a bike conversion. Am i on target? and am i right in thinking they can go to 10,000rpm!!!  Dimensions are 6.5" dia , 12" long.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Oh yeh and it was dust city! Fired up the compressor , hit the blow gun and instant whiteout. As Charlie Sheen said in terminal velocity "I like dust".


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> So the idea is to use em in series-parallel on a bike conversion. Am i on target? and am i right in thinking they can go to 10,000rpm!!!


Lookin' to beat KillaCycle? Sounds like about the motor mass he uses, maybe even more. And 10 kRPM? O.K. according to the nameplate. But you won't have much torque that high, so I guessing gear for less. But maybe running down a big hill 

Looks like that comm needs a visit to the lathe. Must have been some gritty dust. Overall, looks like a great motor  just used a bunch.

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

major said:


> Lookin' to beat KillaCycle?


Nah just don't wanna build a slow bike 

Quite by accident i came across 2 more motors. One is a pump motor which i was told is 48v. Its got weird connections. 3 wires. Two of them are marked E1 and E2. Third is blank. Two seem to be going to the field but i'm not sure.

Other is a crown 36v traction motor. This didnt run due to stuck brushes. Idiot that i am i used carb cleaner , connected to a 12v bat and spun the motor with a drill. Bit like starting an old engine. She jumped and sparked and immediatly ignited the carb cleaner. this had the dual effect of scaring me to death and getting the motor running sweet! Don't try this at home

Any advice or comments welcome.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Are you near a "Fire Hydrant" just in case..........


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> She jumped and sparked and immediatly ignited the carb cleaner. this had the dual effect of scaring me to death and getting the motor running sweet! Don't try this at home


Did you get video!

Interesting motors there.
Did you start a build thread for the bike?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Did you get video!
> 
> Interesting motors there.
> Did you start a build thread for the bike?


Sadly no video. Was late evening and i wasn't really thinking straight anyway I'll start the thread next week when i get the bike.


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## imknot (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok, so here's a motor I just got off ebay. I'm not sure if the fields are burned or not. There is one spot where the coating is flaking off. Is that fixable?
Can I spray something on to insulate it?


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## felonymatarspike (Oct 12, 2009)

I just wanted to let everyone know I will be putting my system on eBay in the next few days. Here is a draft of the ad:

This auction is for a 14 kW separately excited motor and controller. To the knowledge of the seller, both motor and controller are in operational condition, but this has not been verified. Visual inspection of the motor indicates remaining commutator life. The controller has been powered to check the diagnostics via the LED light pattern. Initially, applied power was too low, and the diagnostics indicated such. With proper power applied, the diagnostics indicated no problems.

I started an electric vehicle project with a friend, and it was for that I procured these components. He since moved away for another job, and I lost ambition to complete the project. I am a mechanical engineer (he is an electrical engineer), and I am not interested in making electrical mistakes that will cost me money!

I have motor mapping information and controller software that will be included in the sale.

The motor is a GE model 8504666, 36/48V, 330A, 1000 rpm unit. This is a class H motor. I have the mating spline for the shaft out of one end of the motor. The shaft out the other end is a different size.

The controller is a Curtis 1244-4406, sep-ex unit. This is a 24/36V, 400A unit.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I tested the bigger pump motor today. Two wires lead to the field(same diameter labeled e1 and e2) and one to the brushes. Connected brush lead and E1 to a 12v battery. Spun up no problem. Then tried brush lead and E2. Spun much faster. So my question is how is the field configed? Is it a series / parallel setup? I dont think its compound as resistance of both "e" terminals to brush lead is almost the same. Any advice or help much appreciated.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Pete. I've had a look and the setup is as follows. One armature terminal runs to the field windings via a short jumper. The other comes out to a lead. Then the two other wires labeled e1 and e2 go to the field. I'll pull it apart and see whats what.


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## Mr Producer (Sep 5, 2010)

Hiya All!
Well what a great site!
This is my 1st post so go easy on me!
I am looking toward doing an EV conversion.
I have been offered a motor from a big forklift truck,

info plate reads

BKB Electric Motors, Birmingham, England.
Volts: 72
HP:10
Rating: 1 hour
Speed: 2000 rpm
Winding: Series
fan cooled
overall length= 20” (508mm)
diameter=11¼” (286mm)
weight=98kg


Was wondering what weight of vehicle this would move
(judging by appearances something big....)
I'm thinking it could run at well over 144v for speed too.
No, i've not done my maths or picked a donor yet......
Just started reading the "how to build an electric car too"

Any info or advice taken on board!

Many thanks
rog


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One problem with big motors, as I have found, is that you may not be able to spin them very fast due to their physical size. You would need to look at the armature to see if it is strong enough to withstand high centripital forces. At high speed the windings could be thrown outwards and the commutator bars could fly out like shrapnal.
Need to check if the comm connections to the armature windings are soldered or welded. Soldered connections can soften with the heat and then get flung out with an obvious outcome.

If it is the motor I am thinking of, the brushes are not too big. On my 12" motor there are twin brushes on each of the four brush boxes. It is also foot mounted, I don't know how strong the drive end would be for mounting. Potential weakness could also be in the cables where they have a sharp bend exiting the frame. I am careful moving mine about so as not to flex the cables too much in case the insulation breaks at that point.

For comparison, my 12" motor has aluminium drive end and comm end and weighs in at 114kg, 16kg more.

It may be good for a tractor, or a small truck. A conventional car would do well with a 9" motor. It would spin faster and be lighter.
Suitability depends on what you want to drive with it, or what you want to convert.

I would get it to build a second tractor with.


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## Mr Producer (Sep 5, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> One problem with big motors, as I have found, is that you may not be able to spin them very fast due to their physical size. You would need to look at the armature to see if it is strong enough to withstand high centripital forces. At high speed the windings could be thrown outwards and the commutator bars could fly out like shrapnal.
> Need to check if the comm connections to the armature windings are soldered or welded. Soldered connections can soften with the heat and then get flung out with an obvious outcome.
> 
> If it is the motor I am thinking of, the brushes are not too big. On my 12" motor there are twin brushes on each of the four brush boxes. It is also foot mounted, I don't know how strong the drive end would be for mounting. Potential weakness could also be in the cables where they have a sharp bend exiting the frame. I am careful moving mine about so as not to flex the cables too much in case the insulation breaks at that point.
> ...


Tractor eh?
Like that idea 
Thanks for the advice too.
I'm going to have a look at it.
I'll check the bits you mentioned.
I'm new to this so i've just been looking around tentatively for parts and donors really. I good with electrics and handy with a spanner or multimeter (enough to do most work on my stuff anyway)
Toyed with converting a subaru impreza, toyota hilux 4x4 or mr2, or smart sport (just a few of my choices) but not looked too deeply into practicalities yet.
Where I live it would be handy to get a little 4x4 functionality in bad weather too. TOO many choices.
I shall continue to peruse the web
cheers all,
rog


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I take it you will be bidding for it against me then?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Your gear ratios are very important. I keep my 11" forklift motor below 3200rpm in the bmw. Problem is the ratios are very high as the 316 was a very underpowered vehicle so at 3000rpm in 5th i'm doing 60mph.


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## Hillmb (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey guys I have been looking around for a Forklift to scavenge for a while now and just ran across this on Craigslist. I know its kind of a stretch, but does anyone happen to recognize this model, and know if it had any goodies inside? I just emailed the guy who posted it, Once I get out there Ill post more pictures of what the motor looks like, and (hopefully) get some great feedback from yall about whether or not the motor would work well for my VW convert. Thanks!


http://savannah.craigslist.org/grd/1860991365.html[/URL][/IMG]


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I mentioned in your other thread, it's a gas lift with hydraulics. Not sure what you'd want from it, unless you want to convert your car from an ICE to an ICE, or ICE with hydraulics


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> I take it you will be bidding for it against me then?


And me! LMAO


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

ThWongs said:


> And me! LMAO


So who got it then?

It wasn't me. I figured I already have a nice 12" and getting an 11" was just greedy. 

Besides, I need to fix mine and the money not spent will go on reshafting.
Not only was the coupler not concentric, the shaft was machined off centre too and so it is scrap!


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> So who got it then?
> 
> It wasn't me. I figured I already have a nice 12" and getting an 11" was just greedy.
> 
> ...


No idea who got it in the end. I'm looking for my first motor for my first project, but keep getting out-bidded by greedy so n so's! LOL 

At times like this, I wish I was back in Ireland. One of my best friends there is the best engineer (and nicest bloke) I have ever had the privilege to meet. He has a fantastic machine shop and all the skills to use it! He could sort out your motor with no problems!  If you don't get it sorted before Christmas, let me know. I'll be visiting family and could let him take a look at it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I know of a place that has a room full of forklift motors all at a flat price of £300. Fork truck Services.

You are only in St Helens, that isn't far so maybe we could help each other out if it comes to it.
I have now left my 12" at a motor rebuilders to see if it is cheaply fixable.
If it is and I can design it into my trike I will have a 9" motor available. It was gifted to me so I will gift it on to the next needy cause. Thanks for the offer of your friend's help. I may come back to you on that if the repairs look too costly. Bear in mind that the 12" weighs 114kg, I can only just lift it. The 9" is a lighweight 43kg in comparison.
jackbauer, on here, is in Ireland and comes across motors every now and again too, maybe have a chat with him and see if he finds one that is affordable.


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> I know of a place that has a room full of forklift motors all at a flat price of £300. Fork truck Services.
> 
> You are only in St Helens, that isn't far so maybe we could help each other out if it comes to it.
> I have now left my 12" at a motor rebuilders to see if it is cheaply fixable.
> ...


Helping each other out is what it's all about! 

If you need a nice paint job on your trike project (which I am following with great interest), I'd be happy to help. I own a bodyshop and can also do mobile paintwork if needed.

I've also ben following Jackbauer's threads. I think he is in the South of Ireland and I'm from the north, but it's such a small place, I'm sure I could meet him if there was some goodies for sale. 

Thank you!


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## Hillmb (Aug 10, 2010)

So, I am still looking around for a motor, and stumbled across this on Ebay, anyone have any experience with it?

This auction is for a DC Electric motor # 3BB-17-11310 Good Used! AS-IS

Came off a 5000 unit komatsu model FB25H2

DC 36/48 volt Motor

15 1/2" long on case

19" over all length

12" diameter

Spline shaft 

Seems a bit massive, but hey could be fun.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Motor-3BB-17...657?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e397ac59


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ohhh, nice!

What are you planning to use it for?
12" and 250lb is really big and heavy, I know as I have one that size.


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## Hillmb (Aug 10, 2010)

My Volkswagon Buggy. hehehe, I have decided that I am only going to use it for work and back, school was too far so I have the volvo for that. So it only needs to do about 15 miles a day, and I would be able to go offroading still with the local ********. Overkill, but cheap overkill


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds good to me (but I am planning a 12" in a 500kg reverse trike!)

How does the weight of it compare to the original ICE being hung out there on the back?
Also it may not spin as fast as the ICE did so you may want to look at setting up a rev limiter to protect it from overspeeding.
I haven't a clue as to how the Bug trans will cope with the torque.


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## Hillmb (Aug 10, 2010)

I pulled the ICE a few weeks ago, and I think it must have been abouts 125ish, so it is going to be significantly more, I am going to have to make some sort of support rack, because the back of that buggy is completely exposed, and I an hesitant to put all of that weight on those 4 bolts that link to the tranny, seems like I would be asking for trouble. 

But first things first, I still have to win the bid, then have it shipped to me, then I get to try and pull it apart and clean it/rebuild if needed.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hillmb said:


> I pulled the ICE a few weeks ago, and I think it must have been abouts 125ish, so it is going to be significantly more, I am going to have to make some sort of support rack, because the back of that buggy is completely exposed, and I an hesitant to put all of that weight on those 4 bolts that link to the tranny, seems like I would be asking for trouble.
> 
> But first things first, I still have to win the bid, then have it shipped to me, then I get to try and pull it apart and clean it/rebuild if needed.


Hopefully someone will come along and tell you if it is worth bidding on first.

I would just say 'Get it cos it's big!' but that may not be the best advice by a long way.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Have an option on a Hamech traction motor. Spec says:
v:72
kw:12
hp:16
s2:60min.

pics attached.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

There's a forklift motor I'm looking at for a Honda Trail 90. It's a Raymond Hyster 24 V, it's for the hydraulics, and is said to be 4-1/2" in diameter and 6-1/2" in length. That's all I got for info. Can anyone tell me anything about it, especially if it'd be good for a small motorcycle? ASAP, please.

Thanks,
Kurt


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sometimes those hydraulic motors have female shaft ends which might be a problem. Also, it sounds a bit small.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Have an option on a Hamech traction motor. Spec says:
> v:72
> kw:12
> hp:16
> ...


Is that one of the ones you were telling me about?

Looks good with a drive flange to use as an adaptor.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

@sgtlethargic: It does sound pretty small; I have a treadmill motor here that is about that size that is only rated at ~2HP; I am probably going to use it on a cargo ebike but I doubt it would survive extended use on a motorcycle, unless its' going to be very light and would not be asked to go very fast or accelerate quickly.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

Hey,
Here's the motor: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ategory=109507&_trkparms=algo=LVI&its=I&otn=2

The seller gives very vague info, and I don't see the ask the seller a question link. If it wasn't enough power for a small motorcycle, do you think it'd kick ass on a beach cruiser bike?

Is the 4th picture the female shaft end? Would one have to make a splined shaft to go in there?

Thanks,
Kurt


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The "Ask seller a question" link is there. Pictures are too small to see if there are splines in there or not.


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Hello Group,I need help deciding what motor to buy,today I went to a forklift shop and the guy owner show me a few motors and I take some pictures for you guys help me,the price is about $150 to $200 depending on which one,some are 36v and others 48v,please help me,I know nothing about motors
#1 the tag here say 36/48v


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

this is the motor #2


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

this is the motor #3


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

sorry,big pictures and many motors here are #4


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

here are the motor #5 the tag say 48v but the kw are ilegible and is the drive motor


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

and the last motor(for today) #6


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't really tell too much about them from the pictures. You need to make sure they are series wound motors. Do any of the tags show RPM's? What voltage do you plan to run, what application.


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

no tags information,I plan to run on 144v with the open-revolt control but depend on how much the motor going to cost me,I plan to convert a Ford Focus o a Kia Sportage, dint have the donor yet I decide to have the principal parts first but motor is a nightmare,thanks for help.btw how do I identified a series wound motor?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

raky0311 said:


> no tags information,I plan to run on 144v with the open-revolt control but depend on how much the motor going to cost me,I plan to convert a Ford Focus o a Kia Sportage, dint have the donor yet I decide to have the principal parts first but motor is a nightmare,thanks for help.btw how do I identified a series wound motor?


Quoting Major from here on how to identify a sepex motor (so reverse for a series):

Clue #1: Field terminals are smaller than armature terminals.

Clue #2: Field terminals are labeled F1 and F2, Armature is A1, A2. Series motors typically use S1 and S2 for the field.

The above may or may not apply. Depends on the motor.

Clue #3: Wire shape and size wrapped around the field poles. Series motors typically have rectangular shaped ribbon wire for the field coils. SepEx typically have round wire field coils. Can be fairly large gauge wire, but always round from what I've seen. A lot of times the field coil is wrapped in insulation. But usually the wire can be seen where it connects to the terminal. 

The above is not an absolute. But I'd give it a 99 on the motors you're likely to see.

Clue #4: Resistance, resistance, resistance. On the motors you're concerned with, the series field resistance will be on the order of milliohms, maybe as high as 10 or 20 milliohms. This will likely read as a short circuit (zero ohms) on an ohm meter or multimeter. A SepEx field will likely read between one ohm and maybe as high as 100 ohms. Most likely between 0.5 and 5 ohms. But on the order of like 50 to 100 times higher than a series field.

Unless you can get in and count the number of turns on the armature and field, clue #4 is the most reliable.


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

thanks green c.good tips,I will check that tomorrow,I get more specs on motor#1 ECC=serie;KW7.4; RPM=2121;amp 280,I get the specs from the web how about that?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

raky0311 said:


> thanks green c.good tips,I will check that tomorrow,I get more specs on motor#1 ECC=serie;KW7.4; RPM=2121;amp 280,I get the specs from the web how about that?


I'm not really a motor expert. What I get from this thread is that the numbers from the plate mean very little. As far as I understand it, you can run any of the series motors at 144V, with brush advance. The KW (and so the amps) seems pretty arbitrary depending on expected duty cycle, etc.

The significant factors seem to be the condition (brushes, etc.) which I'm totally unqualified to judge, and the size of the motor. For a small car (focus?) the recommendations seem to be a motor about 7"-9" diameter and about 12" or so long would be good. Tend towards the larger end or bigger for the heavier Sportage.

The only disadvantage of a large motor in a small car would be the weight, and physically getting it to fit. If the motor is too small then you run the risk of burning it up, so in general, a little over size would be better.

I feel sure that there should be a simple formula relating curb weight to motor volume.

Based just on the size, #2 and #5 would seem to be good for either possible donor. The others, I would think would probably work for either and surely for the smaller donor.

Hopefully someone better qualified than I will provide some better input.


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

thanks gottdi,I'm thinking convert a small car like a Ford Focus but can be any other car,that's why I'm looking for parts first,money is a big issue for me,in other words,if I find a good big motor suitable for convert a Focus for example,good,but if not and I found a good small motor to convert a Metro fine too,any way I don't have a donor yet,medium size conversion or small size conversion is equal as long as fit my budget and end with a good made conversion capable of 50 or 60mph,but again,I need help and i going to ask a lot,so excuse me in advance


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

raky0311 said:


> Hello Group,I need help deciding what motor to buy,today I went to a forklift shop and the guy owner show me a few motors and I take some pictures for you guys help me,


Hi raky,

Where is this guy located? He has got a pile of interesting motors.

#1) Looks like a GE 7.2" pump motor. Can't see the business end (DEH), therefore shaft unknown. Nice motor for a small car. Others have commented on things like shaft suitability and advance. Also with pump motors, they are unidirectional, so is the rotation correct for you? This size GE is a good solid performer. Looks like it needs a new set of brushes, and therefore commutator reconditioning.

#2) First photo is different motor. Others are of a GE pump motor, pump still attached. See comments above.

#3) Looks like an old Prestolite 7.2" pump motor. Also a good performer. Looks like a long comm version of MJU. Would have a 9 tooth internal spline drive. For a small car, you don't need the extra brushes and it would be added friction. I'd pass for a commuter car.

#4) Looks like a 6.6" Raymond traction motor. Maybe 24V. Has a cog on shaft. Never saw a lift truck use a belt drive  But motor is likely too small for EV car. Good for cart or bike.

#5) Nippon traction motor. Maybe like 8 or 9" diameter. Probably the best of the lot. But may be more than needed for a small car. 

#6) Another Prestolite long comm MJU. See #3.

Regards,

major


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks Major:I really appreciate the opinions and suggestions,this shop is located in Miami FL and this pictures is only of a few motors,he have more motors,bigger and smaller all DC,ironically the Nippon traction is the cheapest of the lot$100-$150,so #3 is a good candidate for a conversion like a Focus,can this motor be used with more voltage an have the brushes advanced(in case I needed)? he want $200 for that one


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## Lincoln75 (Sep 29, 2010)

Hi All,

Would this motor work on a small car? Sorry, have no weight or size, just the pictures at the moment.

Thanks,
Richard


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Major: Is my motor #3 prestolite similar to the one in this thread? the numbers on the tag are the same
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48523&highlight=prestolite


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

raky0311 said:


> Major: Is my motor #3 prestolite similar to the one in this thread? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48523&highlight=prestolite


Hi raky,

Similar, but different in several ways. Prestolite made dozens of different type 7" pump motors. Most look the same on the outside. That particular one was a 24 volt. Yours is a 36/48 volt, so different armature winding. Yours would be better suited to 100+ volts.

However, I do not think that particular motor is a good choice for you. Because it has 12 brushes, it will have extra friction and drag. With a small EV car conversion, you don't need all that brush and it would likely be counterproductive in good commutation. Besides that, I am pretty sure that motor is equipped with an internal 9 tooth spline. It is very difficult (read expensive) to adapt it to a transmission. And again, it is unidirectional. Correct rotation direction for you?



> the numbers on the tag are the same


Maybe some are, but not all  Your tag says 36/48V does it not? And the Clark part # would be different. The file # would be the same.

BTW, sent you a PM. Please respond.

Regards,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Lincoln75 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Would this motor work on a small car? Sorry, have no weight or size, just the pictures at the moment.
> 
> ...


Looks like a nice motor. Probably work. Hard telling how big it is. Might be overkill. I like it.

major


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks again Major: So this let me with option#1,question:the rotation can be changed?,I search the web and found this motor have a drive end head(what that means)
Related to the Nippon 48v motor #5 you say is big for a small car (considering my projected car an small car) this guy convert a Ford Focus with a 9" motor,is this motor similar in any way to the one I found? 
this is the conversion
http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/
and this is the motor he used
http://store.kta-ev.com/Motors-DC-motors/AMD_Motor_FB1-4001A.aspx


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

raky0311 said:


> Thanks again Major: So this let me with option#1,question:the rotation can be changed?,I search the web and found this motor have a drive end head(what that means)
> Related to the Nippon 48v motor #5 you say is big for a small car (considering my projected car an small car) this guy convert a Ford Focus with a 9" motor,is this motor similar in any way to the one I found?
> this is the conversion
> http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/
> ...


Rotation is not that easy to reverse on pump motors. It requires internal reconnections. Maybe some brazing of connections to move them. Can be done at motor repair shops. Shaft might be the bigger problem.

#5 might be the way for you to go. Simon's car is what I would call mid size. 8 or 9 inch would do well.

Regards,

major


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Thank you guys for help me,excellent forum and good people here,today I'm going to negotiate with the guy the price of the motor and later the repair process.


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## raky0311 (Aug 31, 2010)

Hello Guys: I went to the motor's shop today and bad news for me,the big motor is too heavy 225lb with the brake attached and need an extensive repairs on the brushes section, also I was wrong about the price the guy ask me $300 for that motor,so no deal,now I'm considering motor#1 GE ,weight 116lb,rpm 2121,amp 280,kw 7.4,ECC serie,and have a shaft with a coupling that look similar to the lovejoy attached to the pump,the guy are asking me $180,what do you guys think about the price,can be this motor a good candidate for a Toyota tercel?.
thanks in advance!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I found this motor on Ebay. Just wondering about your thoughts on it.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150497505657&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


> *Diameter* 250mm Across Flats *
> Length* 285mm *
> Voltage* 24 to 72 VDC *
> Speed* Up to 7,000rpm *
> ...


The specification look generic rather then specific to the motor for sale.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Looks sweet to me. And interpoles. Only issue will be that stupid gear output shaft.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Looks sweet to me. And interpoles. Only issue will be that stupid gear output shaft.


What will the interpoles do?

If it really is good for 7000rpm then I can direct drive the BMW K100 input and run safely up to 113mph.

The little gear looks like it might be splined to the shaft so it could be welded to a coupler for easy connection to the gearbox shaft.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I found this motor on Ebay. Just wondering about your thoughts on it.


Hi Wood,

It looks like a pretty good deal. Actually a nice machine from what I can see. And the gear looks like pinion attached to the shaft via spline or key.

It is 250mm diameter but rather short in overall length compared to a Warp9. And looking at the S2 curve, has a 125A 60 minute rating. Seemingly reasonable RPM at that load and 72V, and interpole, so higher voltage and hence RPM should get you good power. But less than what you'd have with a Warp9 or similar lifttruck motor.

Frame is unusual in that it shows no pole bolts, so may be a laminated case with wound in place field coils. Likely a short comm 4 brush deal. I don't like those terminals, but they'll do if you strain relieve the cables.

All in all, looks like a good motor for a trike or such. And with the interpoles, reverse is doable so direct drive is option. Not too heavy either. And did the seller say it was new, unused?

Cheers, 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> What will the interpoles do?


Interpoles aid commutation such that advance is not required for high voltage operation. Advantage is interpoles are not sensitive to rotation direction or motor/generator operation. Disadvantage; interpoles have a small power loss from winding resistance, consume internal space otherwise which could be used for torque producing components and cost money.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the input.

I've not spoken with the vendor yet, thought I would ask here first before the 150 mile drive to see it with a view to an offer.

Haven't figured if the diameter is the frame or the three mounting lugs but it seems to be around about the same size as my 9" but with a much higher speed and voltage. I figured that would make it worth the effort.

I may put in an offer given I could have a costly 12" to repair otherwise.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> ........about the same size as my 9" but with a much higher speed and voltage.


Looks like about 2200RPM at 125A, 72V. IIRC, not higher than most 9 inchers.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Looks like about 2200RPM at 125A, 72V. IIRC, not higher than most 9 inchers.


Ahhh, the ad suggests up to 7000rpm.

My 9" should be good for about 3k tops?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Ahhh, the ad suggests up to 7000rpm.
> 
> My 9" should be good for about 3k tops?


Yeah, for maximum speed. Even 9 inchers like the Warp9 should be able to do 5000. I'd be leery of intentionally operating that one any higher. Maybe just on the occasional downhill when nobody is looking.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Yeah, for maximum speed. Even 9 inchers like the Warp9 should be able to do 5000. I'd be leery of intentionally operating that one any higher. Maybe just on the occasional downhill when nobody is looking.


That would my main area for concern on maximum speed. 
I could say I would only drive at 60mph but on that nice long down hill with all the trucks speeding up to 75 I don't want to be burning out my brakes holding up the traffic to save the motor. I want to be coasting down as fast as I can get away with to gain momentum for the next up hill.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not sure about this motor and vendor at the moment.

I asked about the specifications and wanted to know what the comm end was like and what it actually said on the plate.

He has just messaged me back only to refer me to the manufacturers website and nothing else.
[url]http://www.coopercontrols.co.uk/components/n132s.htm[/url]

He could have just read the plate and said there was no info, if that is the case.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

major said:


> Yeah, for maximum speed. Even 9 inchers like the Warp9 should be able to do 5000. I'd be leery of intentionally operating that one any higher. Maybe just on the occasional downhill when nobody is looking.


 This is from the website: http://www.coopercontrols.co.uk/components/motors.htm

The NEXUS range is particularly designed with electric vehicles in mind. Their characteristics are so well suited to EV traction that they are becoming increasingly adopted as the industry standard. In order to obtain optimum vehicle performance the traction motor needs to be light weight, capable of high rotational speeds and have a high efficiency. In addition maximum torque/ampere over a wide speed range is a necessity. It must be suitable for a high voltage supply and combine optimum reliability with long life. Significant weight reduction in Nexus has been achieved by careful design to the iron circuit and the use of the Nexus faceplate commutator. Only 30% of the copper used in a comparable barrel commutator is required for the face of the commutator. This range of Nexus Motors is built to give optimum reliability under arduous road environments. Lightweight and powerful, it has been designed for volume production and minimum cost. 

Question for major.
What is a "faceplate commutator"
Gerhard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> This is from the website: http://www.coopercontrols.co.uk/components/motors.htm
> 
> The NEXUS range is particularly designed with electric vehicles in mind. Their characteristics are so well suited to EV traction that they are becoming increasingly adopted as the industry standard. In order to obtain optimum vehicle performance the traction motor needs to be light weight, capable of high rotational speeds and have a high efficiency. In addition maximum torque/ampere over a wide speed range is a necessity. It must be suitable for a high voltage supply and combine optimum reliability with long life. Significant weight reduction in Nexus has been achieved by careful design to the iron circuit and the use of the Nexus faceplate commutator. Only 30% of the copper used in a comparable barrel commutator is required for the face of the commutator. This range of Nexus Motors is built to give optimum reliability under arduous road environments. Lightweight and powerful, it has been designed for volume production and minimum cost.
> 
> ...


We used to call them face commutators. Instead of the brushes riding on a cylindrical surface oriented in the radial direction, the brushes are pressed in an axial direction against the comm which has a flat surface, disk shaped. The comm segments then take the shape of pieces of pie. As you can imagine, this requires different tooling to "turn" the comm and undercut it. Not to mention the initial fabrication and assembly of the commutator and armature assembly.

Back in the old days , face comms were only used on small, cheap wire wound armatures, for cost reasons. They were plastic moulded with copper inserts. Throw-away type motors. 

I suppose the Nelco engineers and marketing guys think they have some advantage using this shape comm. I don't really see it. Kinda like radial vs axial motors, radial vs axial commutators. Both work. Advantage and disadvantage with both methods.

major


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

major said:


> We used to call them face commutators. Instead of the brushes riding on a cylindrical surface oriented in the radial direction, the brushes are pressed in an axial direction against the comm which has a flat surface, disk shaped. The comm segments then take the shape of pieces of pie. As you can imagine, this requires different tooling to "turn" the comm and undercut it. Not to mention the initial fabrication and assembly of the commutator and armature assembly.
> 
> Back in the old days , face comms were only used on small, cheap wire wound armatures, for cost reasons. They were plastic moulded with copper inserts. Throw-away type motors.
> 
> ...


So they probably have pie shaped brushes.
I think the higher RPM rating is because it is easier to restrain radial comms than "normal" ones.
Gerhard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> So they probably have pie shaped brushes.
> I think the higher RPM rating is because it is easier to restrain radial comms than "normal" ones.
> Gerhard


Your opinion. Not necessarily that of the industry. More there than meets the eye. Anyway, I say, WTF, make something that works, verify it, stand behind it, sell it and see what the users say. 

I think the old standby has a lot going for it.

But I am open to new stuff. But this ain't new. Maybe they can make old stuff better. Good for them. 

Hey, I don't care how it commutates, just make it work 

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wonder if the radial coms could use less brush pressure/less friction, as the brushes might be less likely to float at high speed?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have an option on a motor from a Still forklift.
It's a big one, 13" and currently still attached to the axle.

























What are your opinions please?

Thank you.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I have an option on a motor from a Still forklift.
> It's a big one, 13" and currently still attached to the axle.
> 
> What are your opinions please?
> ...


Woody,

Looks like something from a 7 or 8000 lbs. forklift. Nice, something that big would be pretty inmpressive and have lots of torque. It also looks like the motor is enclosed and weather proofed. How is it cooled?

Are there any specifications? 

Can you determine what the drive end shaft is like? Do you just get the motor or can you get the axle as well? That gear stack looks VERY interesting

With the right type of shaft end and/or the attached gear reduction this just might be the motor you are looking for.

If the gearing stack is how I picture it in my head you could position the motor with the gearstack outside the swing arm pivot, then jack shaft it back close to or on the pivot centerline.

For myself, if the drive end shaft is in any way useable I would buy it if the price is reasonable, say under 250 english pounds (I think thats about $400.00 US) just to have it. That of course is something you will need to decide for yourself.

A question on a different subject. Have you looked for other damaged milkfloat motors to try to find something with say burnt out fields or case damage but with a good armature? If you have something like Graig's List over there, you could maybe place and ad.

Looks like the comm and brushes are in good shape and it looks like the brush rig might be separate and posably moveable like the one in our 13 was to make brush advance a breeze.

Nice find if it isn't too expensive.

Be well,
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jim. I should be able to negotiate a good price on the motor with a view to getting the axle at scrap value hopefully.

I think the motor will have a big ratio reduction to a diff and then to the axles. There looks to be further reduction in the hubs I think. I was thinking along the same lines as you with the options dependent on the gear train and the weight of the gear casing.
Do you think a 13" motor will be sufficient in a 500kg trike?

I will make an offer on it taking into account a 400+ mile round trip drive with a trailer to collect it. I don;t know much more about it then the photos the seller has sent to me. I was goign to take a chance on it.

I haven't had time to look at the other milkfloat motors, things have been really hectic and stressful at work, and not in a good way.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My offer on that 13" and axle has been accepted.

Oh well, best get the trailer emptied and arrange for a long drive to get it.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> My offer on that 13" and axle has been accepted.
> 
> Oh well, best get the trailer emptied and arrange for a long drive to get it.


Freakin far out.

Can't wait till you get it home and apart. I have high hopes that the extra reduction you need to make a single speed work will be found in the gears inside the axle. 

From the looks of that axle you'll get a good lump of change when you scrap the remains.

Lots of pictures,

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Freakin far out.
> 
> From the looks of that axle you'll get a good lump of change when you scrap the remains.
> 
> ...


What do you mean 'scrap the remains'?
I was thinking of some big tyres and my 9" motor.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> What do you mean 'scrap the remains'?
> I was thinking of some big tyres and my 9" motor.


Nah, the 9 inch goes on your tractor and the 7 inch goes on the one you are going to build for you Dad. Torque baby, lots and lots of torque.

Another thought, what are you going to do with the 12 inch. Doorstop, Boat Anchor, End table, Stool base?

At last count I think you must have 6 or 7 different types of transaxles, transfer cases, axles and shafts just laying around. You sure don't need a lump of iron like that laying around to trip over.

That axle probably weighs 3 or 400 pounds alone and the motor is going to weigh 300 or so, OUCH my back is killing me just thinking about it.

You have enough projects to keep you going until you are my age.

Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...That axle probably weighs 3 or 400 pounds alone and the motor is going to weigh 300 or so, OUCH my back is killing me just thinking about it....


Double ouch!  Woody, you should just open a "gently used" EV parts store. Seems like you enjoy the thrill of the parts chase as much as building them!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Haha, I do have a lot of parts, just need some more controllers and then some lithium.

Current score:
1 x 3" pm
1 x 4" pm
2 x 4" geared
1 x 7"
1 x 9"
1 x 12"
1 x 13"

1 x forklift axle
1 x Land Rover axle
1 x Lada transfer box
1 x Wheelhorse transaxle
1 x Murrey transaxle
1 x BMW K100 swing arm
2 x BMW K100 gearbox
1 x Honda VFR750 swingarm
1 x Citroen 2CV transaxle
1 x Toyota MR2 transaxle
1 x MGB front axle

1 x Curtis 1214 controller

4 x Optima red tops

Hmmm, that is more then I thought.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Hmmm, that is more then I thought.


 When's the Grand Opening?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Add to the list a 6" pump motor, freebee with the 13" which is now down scaled to an 11".
Photos in the next day or so.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...the 13"... is now down scaled to an 11"...


Wow, the guys at Woody's EV Parts can even downsize your motor for you! 

You're going to need a warehouse to keep it all in at this rate.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Wow, the guys at Woody's EV Parts can even downsize your motor for you!
> 
> You're going to need a warehouse to keep it all in at this rate.


Yeah, because the motor was buried behind the axle and the forks it was difficult for the chap to measure properly.

Not sure if its size makes it a better or worse motor for what I am looking for yet. It has no cooling, just openings at each end and the DE cap is the axle gear housing so if I remove the motor I will need to make a new DE cap.
For the loss of two inches I should have made a lesser offer. As it is it has all cost me more then money (see tractor thread) but I may be able to recoup in scrap metal.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is the 11" motor.

















Brushes from the earlier pic.









Motor and axle on a crane for loading.









On the (broken) trailer.









I also picked up this little 6" pump motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

When I picked up my 11" and axle I also saw this.









Hiding under the pile of cable was a 13" motor with a three armed drive yoke for one of theose rubber doughnut flexi couplings.









I believe a certain jackbauer has first dibs on that.
I wonder what his plans are?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Project X


...........hey is it me or does that motor have adjustable brush timing?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Project X
> 
> 
> ...........hey is it me or does that motor have adjustable brush timing?


Looks like it to me.
It has slotted mounting holes in the CE.

The 11" and the little 6" pump also have easily adjustable brush box rings from what I can see.

How are you planning on getting the motor to you?
Not sure if you can use it but that big green anderson connector on the pile of cables has it's mate still on the fork lift. It will be scrapped on Saturday so if you wanted them it would be wise to ask soon.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Some more images of the 11" motor as I am cleaning up the axle case.

This is how the motor is attached. You can clearly see the split line for the left side of the axle case though the diff and to the DE of the motor. Splitting there should expose the diff, reduction gears and one end of the motor drive pinion.









Here you can see the right side axle tube bolted to the DE extension casting.
Splitting here would remove the right side axle case and half shaft from the diff.









That should leave the motor with half the diff case and some of the reduction gears in the DE and DE extension casting.

Though there is no fan there are large apartures at the CE where the comm can be seen.









Also there are large apartures in the DE.









That could allow an external fan to be used to keep the motor cool if the DE casting was kept and reduced in size. Alternatively a new DE can be made with ducting for an external fan.

Looking in one of the DE apartures a large amount of oily black dirt is visible as is the armature winding.









I don't yet know if the motor can be removed intact. I will probably release the brushes and then remove the frame and field coils to see if the armature comes with it or remains connected to the reduction gear case.
Some of the reduction gear case bolts are from inside the DE cap, I will need to see if they are within reach through the DE apartures.

There seems to be no data plate on the motor though I have been told the forklift is 80V.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm sure i've seen that sort of setup before on hyster motors. I think a few people on here have used that sort of motor by just cutting off the lump of unnecessary metal. I'd use an airline to blow all the crap out of the case. I did that with my 13" and it was a whiteout so wear a mask.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, I have seen a few motors used in projects here that have had a large lump on the side. Cutting it off seems sensible.
I am still wondering if I can adapt the axle to my 9" motor and run it on the tractor!

Making a new DE cap in aluminium shouldn't be too difficult and may allow me to make something that looks nice. Could be costly though.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

I realize I'm just looking over your shoulder here, but it looks like that motor, gearstack and differential are very much like I thought they might be. If they are I think they are, you will like what you find once you break it open. When I first saw it I was a little worried but it now looks like you are going to get a usable DE and a gear reduction (I hope).

Looking at the picture through the port on the DE it almost looks like the end of the armature windings are formed like a centrifical fan. take another look. If that is the case that explains all of the crud you see on the field coils, thats just floor crud that has been sucked in over the years.

With an 80 volt rating and the looks of what I see you might have gotten your hands on the equivalent of some of the new high voltage 11 inch motors.

I guess we'll see as you get it taken down. 

Good luck,
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Keep looking, Jim, it is reassuring without being intrusive.
I will try a 12v battery test this weekend too, having not actually run the motor at all. I forgot to take a battery with me when I bought it.
The hubs either don't turn easily or are siezed on the brakes so it will be interesting to see what happens.

I wish I had an engine crane to hand, moving it about is hard work, I can't even turn it over yet to clean the other side of the axle.
It is still sitting on the trailer under cover.



The 6" pump motor has had water in it. I took the brush cover band off and it was red and green sludge at the bottom.
maybe it will clean up, otherwise at least it was free.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

If the drums won't turn, pop the axles out. That's only 15 or 16 bolts per side. You'll need to take them out anyway to get at the hub nuts to get the drums and hubs off. It might be easier, but messy, in the long run to pull the long axle, drum/hub and axle housing by unbolting at the differential housing.

By the way I've found that a 3 pound hammer or 5 pound maul applied with vigor to the circumfrence of a drum like that while somebody leans on a 5 foot track bar wedged between the hub and and a wheel bolt/stud will generally free up a rusty drum. A generous application of heat sometimes is also indicated. (Yes I have had to free up some semi trailer drums in my life).

AIN'T TEARING STUFF APART FUN.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I managed to pull the 11" motor off.

I first had a look at removing the CE but the bearing needed a puller so I left it alone.
I then looked at the DE and slackened the bolts to see how much movement I could get and if the armature would come with the motor or stay with the axle.
The armature moved with the motor so that was good.
I wrapped a lifting chain around the motor and lifted and eased it off the axle, not too difficult by about 80-90kg or so but I had to stand on the trailer to do it.


















The DE of the armature doesn't have a bearing. The splines fit into the gear and the bearings are on the gear in the axle.
However, there is an oil seal land on the shaft that is inside the end face of the motor frame.
I think that I can make a new DE cap with some aluminium plate and fit a bearing carrier to the inside of it.
I will measure it carefully and see if I can do it with a bearing block like this:








Or make a proper one.

It does mean that I can make a DE cap that had a nice design like the 12" that this is replacing.
I have also found a nice sheet of 19mm thich aluminium plate at the scrap yard. It is about 18"x 60" and was cheap!


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi wood, 

It better to make a complete new cover. Make sure the aluminium plate is thick enough, so you can fit the bearing and then machine the rest to remove some weight and add some hole for the air flow. 

Albano


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I think that I can make a new DE cap with some aluminium plate and fit a bearing carrier to the inside of it.


Hey Wood,

Why? That forktruck didn't need one. Why don't you just make your new set up mimic that? They leave out the motor DE bearing for a reason, ya know 

Just a thought.

major


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody


Woodsmith said:


> I managed to pull the 11" motor off. I wrapped a lifting chain around the motor and lifted and eased it off the axle, not too difficult by about 80-90kg or so but I had to stand on the trailer to do it.


Got yourself a GIANT golf cart motor huh . 

The insides look pretty clean, Do the holes in the armature go all the way through? If they do and the way the windings wrap to look like the end of a centrifical fan it almost looks like this might be an air cooled armature, if there is such an animal?



Woodsmith said:


> The DE of the armature doesn't have a bearing. The splines fit into the gear and the bearings are on the gear in the axle.
> However, there is an oil seal land on the shaft that is inside the end face of the motor frame.
> I think that I can make a new DE cap with some aluminium plate and fit a bearing carrier to the inside of it.


I will measure it carefully and see if I can do it with a bearing block like this:
It does mean that I can make a DE cap that had a nice design like the 12" that this is replacing.
I have also found a nice sheet of 19mm thich aluminium plate at the scrap yard. It is about 18"x 60" and was cheap![/quote]

Before you go through all that effort to make a new DE bell I would pull the existing DE off the axle for TWO good reasons:

First you want to run the motor to make sure it is in fact good.

Second you want to see what it would take to fix up the existing drive end and you also want to see if you can't use all or part of the internal gear reduction. Maybe that nice piece of 3/4 inch aluminium could coud be made to be a end cap for the reduction part of the drive.

If that was an 80 volt motor it probably spun at a pretty good clip so you just might NEED that initial reduction to keep the sprocket sizes reasonable.

I had a think, if you do have to build a new DE, how about building one in two layers with spacers between and put a reduction belt drive inside between the layers? Kind of the old kill two birds thing.


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Would it not be easier to modify the original DE cap and use the gear end after the bearing? It already contains the bearing and it already fits the motor. Could this save a whole lot of manufacturing, machining and alignment?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

albano said:


> Hi wood,
> 
> It better to make a complete new cover. Make sure the aluminium plate is thick enough, so you can fit the bearing and then machine the rest to remove some weight and add some hole for the air flow.
> 
> Albano


This is what I would like to do but I only have aluminium plate of the thickness I have and don't want to spend out on more if I don't have to.
It would save weight over adpating and converting the steel one on the axle.



major said:


> Hey Wood,
> 
> Why? That forktruck didn't need one. Why don't you just make your new set up mimic that? They leave out the motor DE bearing for a reason, ya know
> 
> ...


Well, the gear reduction appears to have a small pinion gear which has a bearing on each side of it. The armature shaft is then supported by the gear.
Without that, and a replacement bearing, the armature would whip round smashing into the field coils.

I will dismantle the rest of it to see what is the easiest and best option for me as I go along.



ThWongs said:


> Would it not be easier to modify the original DE cap and use the gear end after the bearing? It already contains the bearing and it already fits the motor. Could this save a whole lot of manufacturing, machining and alignment?


If I took the gear case apart then the pinion gear would only be supported on a single bearing, rather then a bearing on each side, and the loose fit of the splines. That would allow the pinion gear to wobble. I would suspect that the gear is helical and the bearings may well be taper rollers. I will see when I split it open.
If it is simpler then I would have designed it then I might be able to use it the way you describe.

As it happens splitting off the motor as I did was the easiest way I could think of to make the unit light enough to move off the trailer!



Jimdear2 said:


> Woody
> Got yourself a GIANT golf cart motor huh .


Seems like it. The axle still has the potential to be fitted to the tractor as it is!




Jimdear2 said:


> The insides look pretty clean, Do the holes in the armature go all the way through? If they do and the way the windings wrap to look like the end of a centrifical fan it almost looks like this might be an air cooled armature, if there is such an animal?


I will investigate further, tomorrow maybe.




Jimdear2 said:


> Before you go through all that effort to make a new DE bell I would pull the existing DE off the axle for TWO good reasons:
> 
> First you want to run the motor to make sure it is in fact good.
> 
> ...


When I split the rest of the axle I will refit the first pinion gear and gear case to the motor see how it runs. Failing that I can always make another temporary wooden DE cap to test with.
I will also see if I can work out the gear ratio to determine the speed range of the motor.
What do forklifts run at? 15-20mph?

Now it is lighter I can lift it to a position where I can drain the oil out before spliting the case. Then I will count teeth or remove a brake drum and count turns.




Jimdear2 said:


> I had a think, if you do have to build a new DE, how about building one in two layers with spacers between and put a reduction belt drive inside between the layers? Kind of the old kill two birds thing.


I will see how the motor use and location works out.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It is as I thought.

I split the axle tube off the gear case and then opened the gearcase to have a look inside.

















The first pinion gear is helical and uses a taper roller bearing at each end and so would not be any use on the motor shaft without both sides of the gear case.
If I used a sealed ball bearing on the DE then the shape of the gear case would mean that not a lot of the gear would be exposed outside of the casting and none of the shaft.

















So, I will make an aluminium DE cap with a built in bearing carrier.

I had a look at the holes in the armature, they go all the way through. Maybe Jim is right, air cooled armature. Is there is such a thing?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


>


Hi Wood,

That looks great, for what, 50, 60 years old? The gears, bearings; in great shape. Might be the first time it was ever popped open. And notice helical gears on the high speed set with tapered roller bearings and then a straight gear on the output. Could have seen 10s of thousands of hours plug reversing a 5 ton vehicle. Too bad it is scrap now 



> I had a look at the holes in the armature, they go all the way through. Maybe Jim is right, air cooled armature. Is there is such a thing?


Yeah, done more often than you think. I believe Kostov uses this feature.

major


>


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Wood,
> 
> That looks great, for what, 50, 60 years old? The gears, bearings; in great shape. Might be the first time it was ever popped open. And notice helical gears on the high speed set with tapered roller bearings and then a straight gear on the output. Could have seen 10s of thousands of hours plug reversing a 5 ton vehicle. Too bad it is scrap now


That gets me too, it does seem a shame that I can't use it as it is. The geared end of the axle must weight 120+kg on its own, so way too much to play with even on the tractor.
There isn't any signs of wear on the gear teeth and the bearings are all sound with no play.
There is around 14:1 reduction from the motor to the diff, not sure yet what the reduction, if any, is in the hubs. The drums are still stuck.


----------



## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

So are you not going to do anything with this motor now?

I've been studying the pictures and feel that there must be something that can be done to save this beast. I wish I could see it in the flesh. I have a machinist friend who is the best I've ever known. He can make just about anything in steel, cast iron, stainless or alloy. If there is anything I can help you with, I would be happy to try. Just ask.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

ThWongs said:


> So are you not going to do anything with this motor now?
> 
> I've been studying the pictures and feel that there must be something that can be done to save this beast. I wish I could see it in the flesh. I have a machinist friend who is the best I've ever known. He can make just about anything in steel, cast iron, stainless or alloy. If there is anything I can help you with, I would be happy to try. Just ask.


I'm using the motor but not the axle.

I was tempted to shorten the axle and then find a way to mate my 9" motor to it for the tractor but the axle weighs more then the tractor does!
It will make some money in scrap weight, shame really as it is in good condition inside.

I have continued the discussion back in my trike thread and also asked about routing an aluminium DE cap in Tech.

That may be something you could help with.
I have some 19mm and some 16mm aluminium plate and I want to make the DE cap with one of those. Unfortunately my lathe is 1/4" too small to mount it for turning.
Maybe you could find out about getting it turned for me? I can do a drawing (on paper) of what I want.
Thank you.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I finally got around to having another play with the 11" motor while procrastinating over college paperwork.

I used a piece of 18mm MDF and routed out a piece to fit as an end cap. The hole in the centre is just a slip fit on the shaft so no bearing was used. I rebated an edge so that it located properly on the frame and bolted it down.










I tested with a 12V battery connected to one pair of teminals and an old bent wood screw to bridge the other two connections to make it run.
It seems to get faster after a while in the video, probably as the MDF wore a little and caused less friction.
Sounds good.


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Great to see that you got it running! You must have a whole lot more confidence in this motor now.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The "beast" has landed. Rating plate reads 72v , 12kw , 1200rpm , 1 hour. Wonder how far i could push it in terms of rpm and voltage .........

Now I just have to convince my friend to NOT go direct drive in a 5 series BMW!

Woody great to see that motor running


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That sure is a big motor, Jack!
Glad it arrived safely.
At only 1200rpm there may need to be some clever gearing to ensure that it doesn't overspeed when casting downhill. A one way clutch to the front of the transmission would help. Be one big one way clutch though.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Great find, looks like a very robust motor. I wouldn't mind finding one like it.

The brush rigging sure looks a lot more substantial then that on our 13 inch GE (bolts instead of screws).

Isn't class F insulation a little light for an EV, I thought class H was best? I guess that Major is the guy to pronounce over it though. Maybe extra fan cooling?

I wonder if you double the voltage, would you double the rpm? 3000 rpm is a litle more like it, but you would need tall final gearing to make usefull speed in a car that had an ICE that turns 6000+. But would the class F insulation stand doubleing the voltage?

Always more questions then answers.

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I don't think the class f is a show stopper. According to this website its only 25c less than class h :
http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mfnrins.asp

I'll be pulling it apart for cleaning , new bearings etc fairly soon so I'll take a look at the armature banding. Hope to get 3krpm. Maybe 3500. My 11" compound wound sounds like a gas turbine at 3500

imho direct drive is a no no. The oems seem to be in love with the idea.

One of the big advantages with this motor is that the com end plate is slotted so brush timing can be easily altered externally.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I don't think the class f is a show stopper. According to this website its only 25c less than class h :
> http://cipco.apogee.net/mnd/mfnrins.asp


Jack
I guess you have to take some chances in life. I'd still put extra fan cooling on it.



jackbauer said:


> I'll be pulling it apart for cleaning , new bearings etc fairly soon so I'll take a look at the armature banding. Hope to get 3krpm. Maybe 3500. My 11" compound wound sounds like a gas turbine at 3500.


 I'm trying (hopeing) that I'll get the 13 inch up to 2500 - 3000 at 120 or so volts. I'd like to hear that sound.



jackbauer said:


> imho direct drive is a no no. The oems seem to be in love with the idea.


I firmly agree . . . in a DIY EV a two speed is the minimum I would accept. 

Powerglides Rule. Somebody posted a link once for a powerglide that was integrated into a motor/trans package. about the best thing I had ever seen for a middle weight EV. Anybody remember the link. I lost it in a crash. 

With the rpm range and PURPOSE DESIGN a single speed might be OK in lighter vehicles, but I still think 2 speeds would be better.



jackbauer said:


> One of the big advantages with this motor is that the com end plate is slotted so brush timing can be easily altered externally.


You are entirely too lucky in the finds you make, I guess that's why they say "The Luck of the Irish".

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> You are entirely too lucky in the finds you make, I guess that's why they say "The Luck of the Irish".
> 
> Jim


That's why it is so good to be friends with jack.
I think my 11", that jack found for me, has adjustable brush timing with just four locating screws.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> imho direct drive is a no no. The oems seem to be in love with the idea.


One of the benefits of a high RPM AC motor


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Powerglides Rule. Somebody posted a link once for a powerglide that was integrated into a motor/trans package. about the best thing I had ever seen for a middle weight EV. Anybody remember the link. I lost it in a crash.


I'll look for it but as I remember it was insanely expensive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bam!  http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

yea, unless you have a very high rpm ac motor, i would say around 7000+ i wouldnt bother going direct drive.

if you do have an ac motor(high rpm) you would need to find out the right gearing.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

(newbie alert)

I'm looking for a suitable motor for converting this little boat... (hope that's allowed here)


I'd like about 8 to 10 kW continuously, but would be satisfied with 6 kW
If possible I'd like to stay at 48 volts, because I have a battery, charger, etc. for 48 volts.

I have an electric fork lift (reach truck) with two interesting motors, both are 180mm (7"):










Drive motor, Series, 3.7kW, 2260 rpm (and a handbrake):






























Pump motor (compound, 7.4 kW, 1330 rpm):
























































Will these motors be any good for my purpose?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Bam!  http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html


JRP3,

Thank you, It has gone to my favorites list again. 

I'm an old Phart and not part of the electronics/computer generation. I always have trouble with searches.

It is a bit pricy, but when you figure the cost of a new case, shorty tailshaft planetary and cover, the manual valve body, etc.etc. $2700.00 for a turnkey, motor ready trans. No motor adapters to make. Plenty of room for a clean battery box. I think it's the way to go. Don't forget you will now have the doaners trans to sell now.

Thanks again for the link,
Jim


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boekel said:


> (newbie alert)
> 
> I'm looking for a suitable motor for converting this little boat... (hope that's allowed here)
> 
> ...


Hi boekel,

Yeah, those look good for starters since you already have them. You have a pump motor, compound wound, 7.4 kW on a 20% duty cycle. May not be correct rotation direction and have problem with shaft connection.

And a traction motor, series wound reversible, 3.7 kW rated on 60% duty cycle. Likely have easier shaft.

I think Euro standard duty cycle ratings are 10 minute based. So, 20% would be 2 minutes on, 8 minutes off, repeated continuously at or below rated power. So the 2 motors are about the same, overall power rated. Even 6 kW 100% continuous will overheat them. Perhaps you can force ventilate it. Or cycle it on and off depending on your intended use.

You can always get your feet wet  with one of these while shopping around for a larger motor.

major


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the fast reply!


major said:


> Hi boekel,
> 
> Yeah, those look good for starters since you already have them. You have a pump motor, compound wound, 7.4 kW on a 20% duty cycle. May not be correct rotation direction and have problem with shaft connection.


 I could just connect a water pump to it (always usefull )


> And a traction motor, series wound reversible, 3.7 kW rated on 60% duty cycle. Likely have easier shaft.
> 
> I think Euro standard duty cycle ratings are 10 minute based. So, 20% would be 2 minutes on, 8 minutes off, repeated continuously at or below rated power. So the 2 motors are about the same, overall power rated. Even 6 kW 100% continuous will overheat them. Perhaps you can force ventilate it. Or cycle it on and off depending on your intended use.
> 
> ...


The thing is, the forklift is still in working condition, so I could sell it as it is and use the money for an other (new?) motor.

I'm afraid I won't get much more than 3.7 kW at 48 volts with this motor, so maybe I'm better of buying something like kit #2 here, only 6 kW continuously but affordable.

Edit = link didn't work, thanks JRP3


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Your link didn't work, the l got left off html http://www.evdrives.com/kits_conversion.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> It is a bit pricy, but when you figure the cost of a new case, shorty tailshaft planetary and cover, the manual valve body, etc.etc. $2700.00 for a turnkey, motor ready trans. No motor adapters to make. Plenty of room for a clean battery box. I think it's the way to go. Don't forget you will now have the doaners trans to sell now.


Good points, an adapter plate can go for $300-$800 depending, if you don't make it yourself, and a coupler $200-$500. It's also less expensive than I remembered, so while not as cheap as using your own transmission and building your own adapter and coupler it's actually a pretty good deal if you were going to be buying those items.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

I remembered scrapping another forklift some time ago...














































It's from a light forklift, only 24 volts but the size is quite large. No nameplate, size: 8.5" x 9.5"

Does anyone recognize this motor?

Currently it has no ventilation, so adding ventilation might help. It only has 4 single brushes, which I think is no problem since I don't need peek power (it's for a small boat).

The motor has 4 terminals, 100% sure Series?

Unless someone recognizes this motor as not suitable I think I'm looking for a 200A controller (preferably with electronic reverse) and giving it a try.

http://www.kellycontroller.com/pm48201200a48vwith-regen-p-83.htmlThis controller looks interesting to me


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

About the controller, 

The one you link to is for permanent magnet motors. You will want to look at controllers for Series wound motors or combination Series/PM like the KDH 24200 

The following is information that is not the result of direct experience.
Kelly controllers used to have a reputation for overrating their controllers. Say that although a 200 amp controller for example could reach an output of 200 amps momentarlly it could not maintain that output and would overheat and burn up/out. 

There are a lot of comments both ways about if they have corrected this and derated the controllers to a more realistic level in their advertising.

My suggestion is do a bit of research on Kelly as well as other low voltage controllers before you commit.

That is a pretty robust looking motor. The internal cableing and connections look like they were able to handle some large current.

Major is still the go to guy on motor information. I think the guy has a catalog and motor history book in his head.

The things I can say about motors, with my limited experience and knowledge is:

Get it dismounted and see what kind of output connection it has, Make sure it will be useable to attach to the shaft of the boat.

Make sure the overall mechanical condition is good or repairable before investing time in it.

The other thing is to determine what the likely rpm of the motor under load is so you can find out if you can direct drive the diameter and pitch of the prop or if you will need to step the output up or down. 

If you still have access to the lift truck and can determine the total gearing through to the differential ring and pinion and determine the wheel diameter Then, if you can estimate the speed that the lift truck ran you can rough calculate the motor rpm.

There are probably other methods that others can suggest. 

Hope this helps,
Jim


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boekel said:


> It's from a light forklift, only 24 volts but the size is quite large. No nameplate, size: 8.5" x 9.5"
> The motor has 4 terminals, 100% sure Series?
> 
> Unless someone recognizes this motor as not suitable I think I'm looking for a 200A controller (preferably with electronic reverse) and giving it a try.
> ...


Hi boek,

Looks pretty nice. Maybe a bit shy on brush size. Might need to blow air in there.

For series motors, you need a reversing contactor set. Cannot do it electronically.

And that is an 80 amp rated controller for PM motors. By Kelly no less. Get a real controller. Yeah, I know, gottdi will hate me for saying that  There has been a lot of question about Kelly controllers. They are cheap, but worth what you pay, maybe? Gottdi says the new ones are good. I don't know what new ones are, so it is hard to advise you. Old wisdom was to get a Kelly with 3 to 4 times the rating you need if you wanted it to live. You're just using 48 volts, right? So there should be a lot of controller choice.

Regards, 

major


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for the answers!
I guess I got a bit lost on the controllers.

Are there (series motor) controllers that stand out price / performance wise? I think (hope) 200A at 48v continuous would be sufficient.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

boekel said:


> Thanks for the answers!
> I guess I got a bit lost on the controllers.
> 
> Are there (series motor) controllers that stand out price / performance wise? I think (hope) 200A at 48v continuous would be sufficient.


At that range I am using a Curtis 1214 350A controller for my tractor.

I've not used it much but is seems to be sound and adequate and easy enough to work with. It does need to be mounted on a substancial heat sink for continuous use though.
I bought mine cheap on Ebay as a new unsued and unwanted part. I was only guided by price not by any perception of quality.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Also take a look at Alltrax. http://evdrives.com/alltrax_controllers_overview.html


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks again 

I've taken apart most of the motor:

all pictures:
http://boekel.nu/foto/10/2010-11sloep/index4.htm









It's got splines at both ends, I've kept the gear wheel off course.









Brush assembly









59 bars if counted right









The coils.









Hmmm...









6,3"









8,3"

The motor-wheel assembly had a gear-ratio of 10 (and wheel diameter estimated at 25 cm, at 8 km/h that gives 1700 rpm, 10 km/h = 2100 rpm. Sounds realistic?

It's a 24 volt motor, what will 48 volts do to the speed?
Since it's a series motor...rpm depends on load...but the lower the rpm, the better for my application (small boat, low rpm means no reduction neccesary).

Any thoughts on what to do next? I'd like to clean up things, get the rust out...can I coat the metal or should it be left blank?

Also some ventilation holes might be a good thing? (I'm thinking of forced ventilation)

Anyone dares guessing max power of this motor?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boekel said:


> I've taken apart most of the motor:
> 
> all pictures:
> http://boekel.nu/foto/10/2010-11sloep/index4.htm
> ...


Yeah, fork trucks aren't speed demons 



> It's a 24 volt motor, what will 48 volts do to the speed?


Double the RPM for a given load (or current).



> Since it's a series motor...rpm depends on load...but the lower the rpm, the better for my application (small boat, low rpm means no reduction neccesary).


That all plays into the prop pitch and diameter. That will determine the motor load which will then dictate the motor speed at a fixed voltage. If you could somehow get the output speed torque curve for the motor and plot the load curve for the prop, where the two cross would be the operation point. Barring that and choosing the proper prop, you might want to use a motor speed controller. Or outfit it with a pulley belt system so you can test and adjust the ratio to get the best load condition on the motor.



> Any thoughts on what to do next? I'd like to clean up things, get the rust out...can I coat the metal or should it be left blank?


I'd just blow out the carbon dust and paint the outside. Don't mess with or even touch the comm. Unless the bearings feel rough or are otherwise damaged, use as is. 



> Also some ventilation holes might be a good thing? (I'm thinking of forced ventilation)


Yeah, depending on how much battery you have, if you are going to run for periods longer than 20 or 30 minutes, I think forced air is a good idea.



> Anyone dares guessing max power of this motor?


Yeah, max power. You're not going there on a boat application. I mean you could run this way up in voltage and overload the crap out of it and get short peaks of 60, 70 maybe more kilowatts. But the way you're using it, I'd keep her under 200 amps. And that will take some nice ventilation.

And watch the no load overspeed, like if the prop gets out of the water.

major


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

major said:


> And watch the no load overspeed, like if the prop gets out of the water.
> 
> major


Lordy, Lordy, I'm beginning to anticipate some of major's answers.  I sure hope that means I'm learning something.

A kind of on subject question relating to major's last comment. 

Does anyone know of a controller that adjusts motor voltage and current to maintain a specific (setable) RPM? I think the Soliton may if I understood what I've been reading, but I may be wrong

For a boat prop, which has an rpm sweet spot where it runs most efficiently, something like that would be ideal. The guys who pitch props can useually tell you what it is for a given prop.

This kind of controller would also stop the prop out of water problem.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

major said:


> Yeah, fork trucks aren't speed demons


 



> Yeah, max power. You're not going there on a boat application. I mean you could run this way up in voltage and overload the crap out of it and get short peaks of 60, 70 maybe more kilowatts. But the way you're using it, I'd keep her under 200 amps. And that will take some nice ventilation.


 I'm sorry, I meant maximum continuous power 
I'll be looking for a 200A continuous controller and monitoring the temperature.
Ideally would be continuous cruising at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and having something left for manouvring / stopping power



> And watch the no load overspeed, like if the prop gets out of the water.


Are there controller that can prevent that? do they monitor the speed or just the amps?


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Jimdear2 said:


> Does anyone know of a controller that adjusts motor voltage and current to maintain a specific (setable) RPM? I think the Soliton may if I understood what I've been reading, but I may be wrong


 Hey that's my question! 


> For a boat prop, which has an rpm sweet spot where it runs most efficiently, something like that would be ideal. The guys who pitch props can useually tell you what it is for a given prop.


In this case It's a low budget conversion, first I'll try the prop used with the diesel engine just to know how many revv's, next will be either tuning that prop or using another cheap second hand one


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## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

I know this is off subject but I'm curious are those tables braced against some walls? If not you might want to tie the legs together so if one slides a bit that motor doesn't fall through and possibly land on your foot! Just a suggestion.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

jehan12413 said:


> I know this is off subject but I'm curious are those tables braced against some walls? If not you might want to tie the legs together so if one slides a bit that motor doesn't fall through and possibly land on your foot! Just a suggestion.


Thanks for the warning 
Those tables are welded to the hull of my boat (with 75 kW diesel-electric propulsion), in such way I can use the gap to saw pieces of wood there  (or ly down a motor)


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Maybe I'm wrong and some of the experts can jump in?

If this was my motor I would run something between the slots, then clean it up with a bit of fine wet and dry paper. It looks like there has been a little bit of arcing going on there.

Back in the good old days, I used an old hacksaw blade to clear the slots. It worked very well, but maybe it's not the best tool for the job? If you use this method, you need to be careful not to miss and scratch the commutator! Only clean the slot down to the resin to make sure there is nothing shorting the segments. The wet and dry will take any sharp edges off, leaving it clean and smooth. I used a lathe to spin it up for the wet and dry stage and I used 240 grit, followed by 400 to finish. If you don't have access to a lathe, it can all be done by hand. 

I used to rewind AC motors and repair generators, although I didn't do much on large DC motors, apart from general servicing, replacing bearings and fitting brushes. I have however, hand wound large generator armatures with similar commutators and this was how I cleaned the them up. If they were badly damaged, I would take a little off them in the lathe, wet and dry them, then clear the slots last.

I hope this is of some help and look forward to seeing it powering your boat sometime soon.

Chris.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

ThWongs said:


> Maybe I'm wrong and some of the experts can jump in?
> 
> If this was my motor I would run something between the slots, then clean it up with a bit of fine wet and dry paper. It looks like there has been a little bit of arcing going on there


We've already cleaned it up:









I have acces to a lathe, so if neccesary I can use it...

Someone offered me a MC-F 48v - 400A controller from a forklift, does anyone know those controllers?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You need to be careful of your choice of abrasive to use on the comm, some have conductive particles that can get imbedded in the gaps.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

CROCUS CLOTH ONLY on the comm !!! (it is usually over in plumbing) I am not as smart as major, But I believe he said let it alone.

MOST abrasives you can get at Home despot are either aluminum oxides, silicon carbide or very poor quality garnets. semiconductors or bits of chunky rock.

I know my soliton will idle at a set RPM, Not sure how well it prevents serious prop out of water overspeed, but It does have a max rpm setting.


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## HydronCollider (Nov 15, 2010)

Hi everyone!! I a total newb and need some help. Ive been reading this thread for 2 days just to get a grasp of DC motors and terminology. I just raided a forklift and got a nice big 11' incher, also a 7' incher, and the controllers. I think the 7 inch(female) is under 100 pounds but the 11' must be close to 200 pounds. Ive never taken one apart before, and the 11' is built like fort knox. I removed 24 screws so far and still nothings coming apart. The drive end shaft has a gear on it that I cant figure out how to get off. 

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0218.jpg

Also the communicator end has what i believe is a breaking cylinder that i cant figure out how to remove. The Breaking cylinder has a vey large nut on the end lined up with the drive shaft, so when I turn the nut the whole shaft turnes too, ugggg. I even tried sticking a wrench in the fan to stop the shaft from spinning while i try to loosen the nut, but my money wrench couldnt grip the nut as it is set in(must need a torx or something?)
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0213.jpg 

The only visible screws that are left are in the middle on the casing, theyare very small and are partially welded so they cant be spun. Maybee I need to grind into these?
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/lines-1.jpg

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
This thing is 900 rpm at 36 volts. Looks like it will have to be over volted quite a bit to make it worth while, but Ill post on that once I get the case cracked open.
Heres some more pics of what I have. Im excited to start learning!

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0212.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0215.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0226.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0224.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0225.jpg

and the little guy
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0223.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0221.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0220.jpg


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## HydronCollider (Nov 15, 2010)

HydronCollider said:


> Hi everyone!! I a total newb and need some help. Ive been reading this thread for 2 days just to get a grasp of DC motors and terminology. I just raided a forklift and got a nice big 11' incher, also a 7' incher, and the controllers. I think the 7 inch(female) is under 100 pounds but the 11' must be close to 200 pounds. Ive never taken one apart before, and the 11' is built like fort knox. I removed 24 screws so far and still nothings coming apart. The drive end shaft has a gear on it that I cant figure out how to get off.
> 
> http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/scottarseneau/DC%20Motor/DSC_0218.jpg
> 
> ...


Ok, it looks like I can take the gear off the drive end with a 1' socket (I'll pick one up tomorrow). I was able to remove the nut off the breaking cylinder(CE side), but I still cant remove the cylinder it self. The shaft is threaded, maybe the cylinder is threaded on? If thats the case i cant figure out a way to get the leverage to remove it (my hands arent cutting it)


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## YakimaRon (Nov 27, 2010)

Hi all, I'm new to building your own EV, and hope to avoid a common mistake, choosing the wrong motor. With that said, I would like to ask for your assessment of the following motor. The curb weight of the donor vehicle is 2675 lbs., std. 5 speed transmission, no clutch, assume 144v and 500 + amp controler. What do you think?







Web searches have found no EV conversion using this paticular motor. Drive shaft is 1 5/8" I.D. Can you identify why its a bad choice?
Thank you,
Ron


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

YakimaRon said:


> Can you identify why its a bad choice?


It is a 3 phase AC induction motor


----------



## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

major said:


> It is a 3 phase AC induction motor


Wouldn't that make it a good choice? Especially if there is a controller? 

Just looked. If I'm doing this correctly, this motor has only 15 hp. Link. But from a forklift application, is that possible?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

drivin98 said:


> Wouldn't that make it a good choice? Especially if there is a controller?


YakimaRon syas he wants to use a 144V, 500A controller with it. Yak is a noobie here. I'm willing to bet he is talking about a DC system. In which case the ACIM is a reason it is a bad choice for him.



YakimaRon said:


> Can you identify why its a bad choice?


That particular BlackMax 215 frame ACIM is a pretty good machine, AFAIK. Rated at 15 hp cont. TEFC. It might in fact do well on a conversion provided you had a 350V battery and suitable drive (AC controller). It is rated at 20A (AC) but is clearly not compatible with a 144V, 500A system.

Also, doubtful it came from a forklift 

Regards,

major


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> TEFC.


Worse, TENV.


----------



## YakimaRon (Nov 27, 2010)

I would like to thank the members for weighing in on my post. This would not be an economical conversion. 350v comes at a price, way to many thunder sky lithium batteries. AC controllers offered by Curtis and others, $1500.00. The Black Max is not from a forklift. But if I now found an AC motor in a later model forklift, would I really want to go there? The AC system costs are so much more than DC.
Thanks again for your input, it's greatly appreciated.
Ron


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Worse, TENV.


Kinda picky there JR 

You know though, FWIW, TENV would actually make it better, seeing as how it was 15hp rated. Without the fan, it would take longer to stabilize thermally, which was likely several hours. Likely longer than you'd run in a BEV. So it would probably take overloads better than a 15hp TEFC  And you could improve the situation by adding forced air over the frame.

Those BlacMax motors in this frame size were based on the old Lincoln designs, maybe the same tooling as Solectria motors used. Of course, the windings were different for Solectria. Used to have a nice extruded aluminum housing. All that was a while back. Not sure what they're doin' nowadays.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good points, thanks for the correction to my correction.


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## joltfreak (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi Everyone,
i'm very new to EV cars. I'm researching the possibility of building a car using a classic mini shell. i definitely want to use a lift truck motor to drive it, since my work deals with Raymond lift truck i was hoping to get some guidance on which Raymond brand motor would be best to use. i wanting to build my mini as a front motor rwd car. i'm looking to build the car for mostly road use but it will see the track as well. i was toying with the idea of mounting the lift truck motor to a GM 350 turbo tranny as the drive train.
any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might take a look at this Powerglide setup:
http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

My first thought was the powerglide system as well. Even though it's quite a compact unit it will take some major surgery to fit this into the front of a mini, but would make a very nice conversion, with good front/rear balance.

Have you tried doing a search of this site for "Raymond"?: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/search.php?searchid=306222


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Joltfreak

I used to be a big mini fan - I thought about building an electric one myself!

Anyway you are aiming at building a lightweight car - If it's light enough a gearbox becomes unnecessary
You will still need a diff and some gearing, When I was designing my car I intended using a gearbox (I even went out and got an old ford gearbox)
When I did the calculations I noticed that with my setup
11 inch forklift motor = 70 ftlbs at 200 amps
4.1:1 Subaru diff
24 inch diameter tires
50/50 weight distribution
600 Kg weight

300 Kg on the driven end - 660lbs - coefficient of friction 0.8 
therefore 528 ftlbs will spin my tires

4,1:1 diff - 528/4.1 = 128 Ftlbs motor torque 

motor gives about 70 ftlbs at 200 amps (128/70) x 200 = 365

therefore about 370 amps should spin my tires - in top gear!

I decided a gearbox was unnecessary and that I could move the motor into the gearbox space giving the whole engine bay for batteries

A gearbox is useful for a heavier car or one with a smaller motor but its worth thinking about


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

I've also been a mini fan all my life and have built and rebuilt a lot of them. Possibly the best small car in the world.... No.... Probably the best small car in the world! 

My first thoughts on electric mini's came from my father many years ago. He wanted to build an electric mini van and planned to keep the original gearbox, just replacing the engine with the motor and keeping the clutch too. A bit of engineering, but it would be interesting to see it in action.

Good luck with the conversion. I for one will be following with great intrest!

Chris.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Yakima,

That's a nice motor if you're interested in modifying it for lower voltage/higher RPM and adding cooling. Aluminum frame, Des A rotor and class H inverter rated insulation is just about perfect. It is ofcourse maybe not for the novice.

Can I ask where you found it and if they have more?





YakimaRon said:


> Hi all, I'm new to building your own EV, and hope to avoid a common mistake, choosing the wrong motor. With that said, I would like to ask for your assessment of the following motor. The curb weight of the donor vehicle is 2675 lbs., std. 5 speed transmission, no clutch, assume 144v and 500 + amp controler. What do you think?
> View attachment 8536
> 
> Web searches have found no EV conversion using this paticular motor. Drive shaft is 1 5/8" I.D. Can you identify why its a bad choice?
> ...


----------



## sonicj (Mar 17, 2010)

hi guys!
i have been tossing around the idea of converting my '97 eclipse manual to a ev so i've been keeping an eye out for local forklift paraphernalia. i have been given the opportunity to "get whatever i need" off a 4000lb standup Clark 36v lift before it heads to the scrapper. 

from what i gather after a brief search of this thread is that it might be worth my time and effort to scavenge this thing. anyone have personal experience / advice with a clark standup? is this a job 2 people can handle? will this project require specialized tools, hoists, etc? if you were going to a site to do a motor/controller pull, what would be in your toolbag? any other advice / words of wisdom? 

i have a fair idea of what i might be in for as i have done motor work on my electric golf cart. mostly, im just worried this might be biting off a little more than i can chew as the work has to be done on site with limited resources at hand. a 6000lb forklift is no golf cart! again, any experience/input will be much appreciated! cheers!
-sj


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Sonicj

Is your Clark a three wheeler?
I bought an old Clark sit down forklift a while ago (3 wheeler)
It had two motors - the pump motor had a female spline drive-shaft
The drive motor was embedded in a massive piece of steel as it was part of the steering

Net result - no go - the drive motor was too heavy and had no ventilation the pump motor was too small (and it had the female spline drive)

Disassembling it was not trivial - everything was incredibly heavy 

On the positive side I got most of my money back selling
Batteries
Forks and mast
Scrap metal - lots and lots!

I have kept a few bits in case I can use them later

Controllers - the controller on mine was shot - that was why it was scrapped

Main thing to bear in mind is the weight - _*be very careful*_


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## sonicj (Mar 17, 2010)

thanx for the reply Duncan!

i actually haven't even seen the forklift yet... i'll try to get some more details from the guy, model number etc. all i know at the moment is that it runs, but needs batteries. i am not buying the forklift as a whole, just picking off the parts i want before it gets scrapped. 

sorry to hear about your misfortunate investment! based on some photos i've seen of clark stand-ups, the motors look fairly accessible. a female splined pump motor might not be a bad thing if i can use it on my golf cart! 

i'll certainly keep safety in mind and respect the weight should i go forward with this project! i'll post some more details as they unfold. cheers!
-sj


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sonicj,
If you can get the motors cheaply enough it may still be worth your while.
Take the pump motor complete with the pump, you may be able to use the parts from the pump as the spline will fit the motor, but otherwise it will be a saleable part if no dirt gets in the pump. 
This is one I picked up, it has a 'jaw' coupling. Don't know if that would be as easy to use though.









The wheel motor is going to be heavy but if you can pull the motor off it may come with a heavy steering ring and the gear wheel. You can lose the steering ring but keep the gear wheel if it has one as it may be useful for coupling to a trans.
Here is one I was given.








The big bit comes off and is half the weight of the motor!


If you skip this one then another type to beware of is the Still. I got my 11" motor from one and it is like a giant golf buggy motor, no drive end cap, as it plugs straight into an axle reduction gearbox.









If you can find a front drive four wheel fork truck have a look under the front for a conventional looking drive axle. That would indicate a motor and propshaft driving it, much easier to remove and use.


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## sonicj (Mar 17, 2010)

thanx Woodsmith! that all makes sense! after reading through this thread a bit, i see you are quite the expert in this area!  

i hadn't even considered using a complete transaxle... i guess this would only be applicable for RWD vehicles? 

i love your CC powered tractor! i just recently finished rewinding that very same motor for my CC! (sorry for the crappy photo) 
-sj


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sonicj said:


> thanx Woodsmith! that all makes sense! after reading through this thread a bit, i see you are quite the expert in this area!
> 
> i hadn't even considered using a complete transaxle... i guess this would only be applicable for RWD vehicles?
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I am no expert, but I keep trying and learning as I go along.

The transaxle in my photo is way too heavy for an EV, it broke my trailer and probably weighs more then my whole tractor does, probably over 350kg. The 11" motor from it weighs in at 101.6kg without a DE cap. 
Also the transaxle gear ratio is very low, around 14:1 in the centre and there may even be hub reduction gears too.
I wouldn't look for a transaxle personally but it was available and cheap so I have to do some work to make it worth while.


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

What model/year is that Clark you're considering? The motor I installed in my Mazda B2200 came from a 1969 Clark. It's a GE 5BT series 11" frame size. It had a large helical gear machined onto the shaft. The shaft can be pressed out of the armature and I had a machine shop shave off the gear down to a 30mm diameter. I don't know how many motors like the one I have were used in Clark forklifts.


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## oilman (Dec 29, 2010)

The previous post mentions pressing out the shaft. Is it comon to be able to press out the shafts on forklift motor rotors. Or does it just depend from motor to motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

oilman said:


> The previous post mentions pressing out the shaft. Is it comon to be able to press out the shafts on forklift motor rotors. Or does it just depend from motor to motor?


Hi oilman,

I'd say it is uncommon. Most forklift motors are not designed with replaceable shafts in mind. I have seen a few. But mostly it depends on the skill of the rebuilder to be able to remove the original shaft and press in a new one without damage to the commutator or windings.

Regards,

major


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

That information about the removable shaft actually came from a phone call to Clark. The rep could only tell me a little about the motor but did indicate it had a removable shaft. The machine shop I worked with confirmed this.


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## HydronCollider (Nov 15, 2010)

Hey all,

Plz check out my new build thread and let me know what you think!
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2002-kia-rio-forklift-motor-total-54747.html

Thanks!!!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm looking at a motor on eBay and would really appreciate any help in identifying what type of motor it is. The seller doesn't know anything except that it was bought as a replacement for an Italian fork lift and never fitted. I've been to the manufacturer's website but can't get any more info there. Is this a sepex motor? In addition to the 91A rating it also gives values for Imin, Imax and Inom at the bottom of the data plate.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Is this a sepex motor? In addition to the 91A rating it also gives values for Imin, Imax and Inom at the bottom of the data plate.


Hi Malc,

That would be as good of a guess as I have 

major


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Major, it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one in the dark


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## YohnnyLuksh (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi!

How much it is possible to "overvolt" forklift motor?
For example 80V 10kW rated (I suppose ~4000 RPM) balkancar (Kostov?) forklift motor, would it suit EV needs?

Could I use it with LeadAcid batteries:
* 72V at beginning
* 144V in future, if added more batteries?

Planned EV: final weight ~2600 Lbs (if 72V used) Toyota Corolla 1993. For city commute.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I've never actually done it but it's my impression that such overvoltage is perfectly fine and the default action for EVs based on forklifts. 120V into a 48V motor and such.
since a voltage for a given motor corresponds to a given RPM with no load (due to EMF) that means that you can't motivate it to go faster than the voltage you apply. in other words let's say 80V corresponds to 4000rpm for that motor then you can't make it go faster than 3600rpm with 72V and that's with no load so it will be weak up near that rpm. that's something to think about wrt gearing. if you keep the gearbox that's less of a problem but with fixed gearing it's critical to match that with intended use.
similarly the 144v will be able to motivate it to higher rpm and you might want to watch the rpm to not go above say 5500 in practice. that limit depends on motor strength. some might be fine up to 10000 and some should perhaps not go above 5000.
there isn't much data on that around I think but if a lot of people spun their motors to death at 6000 I think we would have heard about it. you can ask around what people do or the manufacturer if you can find them. I think most of them don't even test it because it's such a lazy low tech industry.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

oh yeah btw, although I haven't done an EV with forklift motor I have done some controller design motor tests where I feed 330V to a 48V etek motor : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1TLpgWJDY4


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

YohnnyLuksh said:


> How much it is possible to "overvolt" forklift motor?
> For example 80V 10kW rated (I suppose ~4000 RPM) balkancar (Kostov?) forklift motor, would it suit EV needs?
> 
> Could I use it with LeadAcid batteries:
> ...


Hi Yohnny,

In most cases, what you have outlined above works well 

And note, pay no attention to the post from D.F. Most forklift motors are series wound so never run them at no-load with any higher than 12V. They overspeed quickly with higher voltage at no load.

Regards,

major


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Wasn't D.F. banned from DIY?


it appears that the answer is no.


----------



## YohnnyLuksh (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you guys!
OK, so generally as I understood there wouldn't be problem for lower voltage motor to continuously run on higher voltages? 

Maybe someone has experience with overREVing / ruining forklift motors?  

In evening I will try calculate required revs from gearbox ratio, tire diameter, and possible speeds. But I as understand from classic EV motors, for average conversion revs about 6000 would be good?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As a max speed maybe but you'd want much lower for continuous use.


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## cyclops2 (Feb 12, 2011)

I have come across series motors with a small amount of shunt stabilizing windings to prevent the extremely dangerous runaway rpm condition. I never saw a true, purely dangerous , series motor. Not in Yale forktrucks for many years or in industrial metal forming machinery. All always had a small rpm limiting shunt winding. 
Why not ? A broken coupling or very light load is fatal to the motor & rotating parts for no reason at all.

The real reason for the shunt winding in forktrucks is SMOOTH & repeatable speeds with NO load on the forks or a FULL load on the forks going up or down hill. Speed regulation is the worst in a pure series motor.
In a EV a true series motor would have different amounts of gas pedal positions for any different loads encountered. Wind, hill, voltage, cargo added & number of people added. The same speed would be different pedal positions. Not a good thing. 
Ice & snow ??? Wahoo.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> I Smaller 8 or 7" motors usually have higher rpm limits in the 6k range.
> 
> Pete



Hello Gottdi and all,

My motor is 8" pump motor and on the name plate it say max rpm 8000.

I'm sure I'll be safe to use it at 7000rpm, as it only mainly for 1/4 miles just for a few second.

Albano


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> What are you putting it into? What kind of power are you putting to the motor? Amps/Voltage?


The motor is going on the drag Go-kart, it been heavy modified and it has steel com V ring. It can go higher than 8000rpm,but I will limit it as it has too much torque.Volts will be 156v-240v and amps 800+.

Albano


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Hang on for dear life. Put safety precautions into that kart. Should be a blast. Fast for sure. Yes, keep the rpms down a bit. That thing should fly. Got some photos of the kart? We love photos. Lithium batteries?


Yes it a bit overkill, but you know what is drag racing is all about. 

Sorry pic will only be showing when unveiling the Kart at the drag strip for a security reason. It should not be long just a few months. 

Albano


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Oh yeah! Test it real good before you unveil it. Don't want a disaster on day one.


Yes,don't want a disaster. We all knows at the drag strip there's are 1000+
spectator and don't want to be a fool in front of everyone. Especially an electric Go-Kart.


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## cyclops2 (Feb 12, 2011)

Dragging is always a " little more power & rpm " game.

If not required. Still put some kind of scatter shield in to protect every body on a bad run.

Enjoy

Buy a heat gun to check peak temperatures right after a run.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

cyclops2 said:


> Dragging is always a " little more power & rpm " game.
> 
> If not required. Still put some kind of scatter shield in to protect every body on a bad run.
> 
> Enjoy


LOL I like the way you said "Still put some kind of scatter shield in to protect every body on a bad run".

What will the spectator will say "there's come Batman"


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

cyclops2 said:


> Buy a heat gun to check peak temperatures right after a run.


Good idea about the heat gun, will do so thank.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

cyclops2 said:


> Dragging is always a " little more power & rpm " game.
> 
> If not required. Still put some kind of scatter shield in to protect every body on a bad run.
> 
> Enjoy


Sorry forgot to mention that it has a roll case. We all knows safety first.

Albano


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

I was told not to exceed 60 volts on my GE 5BT1362A92 forklift motor. It is rated at 36-48 volts. At 60 volts I get around 4500-5000 rpm. I don't know if the brushes can be advanced on that motor. I will check that once I have a chance to learn more about timing.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

redcelt007 said:


> I was told not to exceed 60 volts on my GE 5BT1362A92 forklift motor. It is rated at 36-48 volts. At 60 volts I get around 4500-5000 rpm. I don't know if the brushes can be advanced on that motor. I will check that once I have a chance to learn more about timing.



Can you send us some photos. Normally you can do 72volts without any mod. 

Albano


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## cyclops2 (Feb 12, 2011)

Be very carefull about shifting the timing of the brushes. 

Wire & brush holder insulation can take a thousand volts EASILY, if in normal condition.

That leaves amperes to be concerned about. It IS THE limiting power factor. It creates the heat that can destroy any part of a motor or other parts of the E V.
2 most important guages on a EV are the motor amperes & the inner most temperatures of the armature / rotor & the field poles/ stator. 

Someone said there are cheap 2 part slip ring sets for use on grounding currents thru motor beraings.
Get a set to install a thermcouple probe into the rotating armature / rotor to read that part. Usually the hottest with brushes.

Keep those 2 below maximum & other things will work out fine.


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## YohnnyLuksh (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi!
I visited local forklift (Balkancar) service, and found such motor:
Used Kostov 6,5/7,5/14 for ~200$, but in good shape.
Dimensions:
diameter - 22cm, length - 40cm, weight - about 50 kg (looks like normal EV motor), BUT ...

This motor's ratings (by their catalogue):
Continuous power - 6,5 kW @ 75V
Max RPM at given voltage - 1400 RPM.
Max current (input fuse) - 180A
Service man told, that you can overRPM about 3000 RMPs.

From my calculations (rolling resistance, drag, etc), I get that with 6,5 kW I could go continuosly on 60 Km/h & 1667 [email protected] gear.

Service man tried to convince me, that this motor's power would be more than plenty for my conversion, but I have doubt. He told that there are several standards, by which motors are rated for continuous ratings, and with one standard power is rated 6 kW, while another = 12 kW...

Yeah, also there were bigger motors - with 15kW continuous, but 30cm diameter and 150 kg!

Please help with this! Maybe I need to search for Japan forklift motors instead of Balkancar (Kostov)?


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

How heavy is the car you're converting? 

Continous power sounds good to me. Peak power can be much higher, so you will get decent acceleration with smaller cars. Our conversion draws about 4,8kW power when driving 50km/h (car weights about 900kg with everything installed). You could run it at 12V to check it runs fine. Check brush size & count and commutator for lifted bars or excessive wear. Serviceman could be right. It's decent motor for your conversion. Take it apart, clean up and change bearings if necessary. I would have taken the challenge, hehe.


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## YohnnyLuksh (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you mora and gottdi! 

My car weighs ~800 kg without ICE stuff, but as I will use Lead-Acid batteries, it will be finally about 1200-1300 kg.
There are 2 brushes, and commutator looks very good - little wear, quite deep gaps. Although there is an open bearing at front of motor (which was oiled from forklift's reductor), so I think I need to change it with closed bearing.

Mora, I see you are almoust neighbor  I am from Latvia. Here's hard to find anyone doing EV stuff. I found Meelis from Tallin (Pobeda conversion). Mora, how much voltage do you have? (and other specs, like motor, controller, batteries?)


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Hehee, cool. I visited Latvia 4 months ago. That Pobeda looks very nice. Someone must have spent time restoring it.

Do you mean total two brushes or brush pairs of two? You want lots of brush contact area. I'm in no way any expert in this area, but I'm willing to share anything I've learned.

Our conversion has lithium pack of 96V/90Ah. I haven't set up a garage page here yet as I'd like to get the conversion registered/pass the mandatory inspection first. We have Kostov motor too, but it is bought almost new (prototype unit). 32kW continous, but we don't need that much I think. I built OpenRevolt-controller, which drives the motor fine (144V/500A max).


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## YohnnyLuksh (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh, interesting!
This motor has only 2 brushes (not 2 pairs). And actually they aren't very big (~5x5 mm).
But main concern is the low amperage - it carries only 180A (input fuse). And these 6,5kW continuous... I am afraid that I'll make adaptor plate and coupler and finally see that it is very underpowered. Maybe just somehow try to save up some money for New Kostov 9'' EV-traction motor... http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovevmotors-and-kits/seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicles/
Iam aiming at Open Revolt controller too


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

It is an 11" frame with 8 brushes. I am going to stick with 60 volts for now. No more room for batteries anyway. Maybe when I can afford lithium I'll address the voltage issue again.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

redcelt007 said:


> It is an 11" frame with 8 brushes. I am going to stick with 60 volts for now. No more room for batteries anyway. Maybe when I can afford lithium I'll address the voltage issue again.


11", 8 brushes and going only 60v. Hope you won't cry and say that thing is slow or no range.

At least try for 96v. 

Albano


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## Sompom (Jan 15, 2011)

Hey, someone (YohnnyLuksh) said something about open bearings and closed bearings and something about needing lubricating... Obviously I have no idea what all that is about, could someone try to explain the difference, and how to tell? I can attach pictures of my motor if needed. I have the GE 8504666.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sompom said:


> Hey, someone (YohnnyLuksh) said something about open bearings and closed bearings and something about needing lubricating... Obviously I have no idea what all that is about, could someone try to explain the difference, and how to tell? I can attach pictures of my motor if needed. I have the GE 8504666.


Often if a fork lift motor drive end (DE) is inside the transmission then the bearing at that end will be lubricated by the transmission oil.
To look at the bearing on the outside you will be able to see the cage the ball bearings run in if it is open. 
Like this:








Usually the other side of the bearing has a seal on it to stop the oil going through and into the motor.

A seal bearing looks like this:








The balls are lubricated and then sealed into the bearing to keep the lube in and the dirt out.
Some bearings use a rubber seal, as in the image, while others have a metal shield.
You will need to check with the bearing supplier that the bearing, lube and the seal will be suitable for the load and speed the shaft will be running at.

Not all bearings are equal and some will carry more load and more speed then others of the same dimensions.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> The balls are lubricated and then sealed into the bearing to keep the lube in and the dirt out.
> Some bearings use a rubber seal, as in the image, while others have a metal shield.
> You will need to check with the bearing supplier that the bearing, lube and the seal will be suitable for the load and speed the shaft will be running at.
> 
> Not all bearings are equal and some will carry more load and more speed then others of the same dimensions.


Good post Woody,

But don't get rubber seals. Pay the extra and get high temperature seals and high temperature grease. These will then be lubed for life and well worth the few extra bucks or Quid (did I get the right ). 

With electric motors rated at class H, 180°C, the grease will liquefy and run out of a shielded bearing or the rubber seals will distort and let the grease out.

Get good quality bearings. Don't skimp.

Cheers,

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Good post Woody,
> 
> But don't get rubber seals. Pay the extra and get high temperature seals and high temperature grease. These will then be lubed for life and well worth the few extra bucks or Quid (did I get the right ).
> 
> ...


Good point, major.
I have been getting cheap rubber sealed bearings to set up with.
Until the motor is running in a rolling chassis there didn't seem much point in going better especially given the number of motors I am playing with.
They will be upgraded before it is road legal.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have a small pump motor, 6" diameter.








The data plate says 
Ransomes
70V
0.45kw

The rest is covers in gunk so I will need to clean it off to see if there is anything useful.

I was thinking of using it for driving a small kart based around a Murrey ride on mower axle.

Would it work ok at 36-48V or will it be very underpowered and a waste of time trying?

The motor is a bit water damaged inside and a bit green around the comm so it would take a bit of effort to put right.

Cheers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I have a small pump motor, 6" diameter.
> The data plate says
> Ransomes
> 70V
> ...


Hi Wood,

Looks like the power steering/aux motor. If so, it is rated continuous duty and would likely do 3 kW bursts for a minute or so. May also be compound wound for a fairly constant speed w/r/t load. Running at 36 or 48V instead of 70 would slow it down a bit, but it may still do a decent job on a small tractor or kart. Looks like some hefty cables, so may be capable of strong short time currents.

I use a compound motor on my eTractor. Off an old floor sweeper. I don't recall, but I think it was rated less than 1/2 kW. Seems to work fine with an old Curtis 1204.

Go fer it 

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks major, I'll break it open at some point soon to have a better look inside.

Those big cables are about 35sqmm and on the other side of the connector block there are two twisted pairs of cables that are only about 4sqmm going into the frame.

The pump is now removed and I think I can reuse the coupler on it, it also has a proper male shaft.


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## redcelt007 (Oct 2, 2008)

So far so good. I live in a hilly area so not expecting to get any more than 30 miles on a charge. I realize more batteries would help, But I don't have the space for them. The vehicle is a 1993 Mazda B2200 truck. All the batteries are located under the truck bed. Batteries installed in the bed would be a bad idea since I'm going to replace the metal bed with a wooden bed.


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## Roost (Feb 23, 2011)

OK. Going to look at a Raymond Electric lift tomorrow. I've read this whole thread, but I still feel a little nervous. I will take a tape measure and see what it has. The owner knows nothing about it other than it is 36 volts and the battery is gone. 

I wonder how much scrap steel is going to offset my cost on this thing? 

I will also have to figure out a way to get it on a low flatbed trailer with no power. Would it be worth trying to rig up 36 volts worth of batteries to move it around? (I have no where to store it, so I am going to have to tear the motors and wiring out just before I haul it to the scrapyard! Yikes.)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Roost said:


> The owner knows nothing about it other than it is 36 volts and the battery is gone.
> I will also have to figure out a way to get it on a low flatbed trailer with no power. Would it be worth trying to rig up 36 volts worth of batteries to move it around?


Hi Roost,

Yeah, you can wire 3 car batteries in series and power the forktruck for a short while. Maybe with some jumper cables. Make sure the car batteries are decent and charged.

But by all means, BE CAREFUL!!!! These things weigh tons and will kill you in a tip over. It would be safer to winch the thing on to the trailer.

major


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Roost said:


> OK. Going to look at a Raymond Electric lift tomorrow. I've read this whole thread, but I still feel a little nervous. I will take a tape measure and see what it has. The owner knows nothing about it other than it is 36 volts and the battery is gone.


From this thread the tape measure does seem to be the best first guess.

I'm no expert at this, but since the lift is $1100 and the scrap value is probably less than half of that it might not be the best solution if all you're going to get out of it is a motor.

Have you tried the forklift repair places?


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## Roost (Feb 23, 2011)

green caveman said:


> From this thread the tape measure does seem to be the best first guess.
> 
> I'm no expert at this, but since the lift is $1100 and the scrap value is probably less than half of that it might not be the best solution if all you're going to get out of it is a motor.
> 
> Have you tried the forklift repair places?


Not sure how you know the price... 

There may be more than one motor, and I have some use for the hydraulic rams that are not EV related.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Roost

As well as the hydraulics the mast and forks are worth a bit, 
farmers around here attach them to the back of their tractors, makes a handy tool around the farm

I sold mine on Trade-Me (kiwi e-bay)


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Roost said:


> Not sure how you know the price...
> 
> There may be more than one motor, and I have some use for the hydraulic rams that are not EV related.


Actually, I can't imagine that he's had much interest in the lift, so his next choice is to scrap it, so anything you offer above the scrap value is probably a win for both of you. If he won't take your offer now, you could wait a couple of weeks.

If you can get more than one usable motor and if you have interest in a few other parts, it may be a good deal.

Some of the electronics, such as the motor controller, you may also be able to sell. It won't fetch much, but every little helps.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hello to all,

This is our forklift yard. My partner is on diesel and gas forklift side and I'm on electric forklift side.
We try to collect most of the forklift for spares, rebuild and well for sure for scrap metal like steel, copper, aluminum...... when thing can't be use.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

albano said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> This is our forklift yard. My partner is on diesel and gas forklift side and I'm on electric forklift side.
> We try to collect most of the forklift for spares, rebuild and well for sure for scrap metal like steel, copper, aluminum...... when thing can't be use.


 May be " heaven land" for future "*EVers"*


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

mrbigh said:


> May be " heaven land" for future "*EVers"*


Maybe yes, " Future EV heaven land" that is what I'm trying to, thank.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

On Monday I'll be starting strip the first 5 forklift for the electric motor.


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## bgoner (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok guys I reached 75th page and *SUMMARY is*:
need motor from big forklift *7-11' *(series mostly)
big/*long comutator*, big brushes and brush cables
need the *drive motor* and not the pump motor
Need good *rpm round 1500-2000* (to reach 3000-4000 with advancing)
About *10kw for 2500lbs car*. (no drag racing, just city driving 35mph max)
*H or F* insulation.
If doubling Voltage *advance *should be approximatelly *10 degrees*. (no advancing for regenerative breaking).
Is that right?

I've got EC10/75/28 (10kw, 75V, 2800rpm, 160A, 25%, 240 startups in 1 hour)
This is a Kostov pump motor from 3 ton forklift. It has it's own cooling but would it do the job? It seems it's not made for continuous loads. Would it work with better cooling? or pump motors are a no no? It's surprisingly small 34kg (75lbs).

Other option si 6.5kw/75V/1400rpm drive motor from 2 ton forklift.

The thing is that I can't double their power except if I get a good  controller($$$). I was aiming to get the controller from a forklift (80V) so should I aim for a 48V motor which I could burn at 80V? Really don't know what to do...

Or maybe find 2 cheap forklift controllers and connect them in series to get bigger voltage(is this possible)?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done for getting through the thread!



bgoner said:


> Ok guys I reached 75th page and *SUMMARY is*:
> need motor from big forklift *7-11' *(series mostly)
> big/*long comutator*, big brushes and brush cables
> need the *drive motor* and not the pump motor
> ...


That's about it.
Only thing is that it is not really worth considering regen on a series motor for the time being, just advance as required. Regen on series is not easy to manage and of little benefit.



bgoner said:


> I've got EC10/75/28 (10kw, 75V, 2800rpm, 160A, 25%, 240 startups in 1 hour)
> This is a Kostov pump motor from 3 ton forklift. It has it's own cooling but would it do the job? It seems it's not made for continuous loads. Would it work with better cooling? or pump motors are a no no? It's surprisingly small 34kg (75lbs).
> 
> Other option si 6.5kw/75V/1400rpm drive motor from 2 ton forklift.
> ...


The drive motor would be able to run at it's rated power for an hour and deliver a lot more for short periods.
The pump motor will only be able to deliver its rated power for 25% of the time so its continuous rating is much much less.
I would say the drive motor is the better bet and you can run it at 144v for more speed.


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## bgoner (Feb 16, 2011)

from Forkenswift


> This 8 inch diameter, 50 kg / 110 lb motor (with female splined shaft) originally drove one of 3 hydraulic pumps in the Baker forklift from whence it was salvaged.


Does that mean that if the pump motor is big enough and the car cannot load it much then it would be able to withstand continuos load?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string and will it reach?

The main problem of pump motors tends to be the female shaft, it is difficult to make a useable connection.
You really want to find out the continuous rating if it is available.

Guessing and assuming doesn't really help here. If you have photos of the motor and the data plate then major might have some advice to offer.


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi All,
I have a Geo Metro which seems to have a Forklift motor.
I recently acquired it. Unfortunately, the data plate is missing.
I put some photos of it on my album... Its 13.5 x 7.5 inchesand the PO
thought it may be a prestolite. I am wondering what its MAX voltage can be
(thinking of bumping from 120 to 144v for more range on old batteries) But 
I got to find out if motor can handle it. For that matter, can it run th 120v it has now much?

Can anyone tell me what motor this is? May need to know for part sometime too.
Thanks
Paul


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Straight up, I have no idea. Nut I'm sure the people on here smarter than me will need to see pictures. How heavy is it? Can you get pictures of the brush holders or tell how many brushes are installed? 4? 6? 8 loactions? Are they single or double brushes at each location? Peace!


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

Here is a link to the album with photos (me thinks)
Thanks
Paul
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=129


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

irish_pilot said:


> Here is a link to the album with photos (me thinks)
> Thanks
> Paul
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=129


That is a Prestolite 7.2" diameter motor, likely circa 1980. Also appears to have the old standard 4.5° advance so was probably a unidirectional pump drive motor from a forklift. In which case, it could be either series or compound wound. Probably designed for 36/48 volts. Might have issues with higher voltage.


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

This was originally a 48 volt conversion, then next owner made it 120v
How should I deal with the increased voltage? I assume I should not increase further? Its quite peppy now...but I don't want to fry it...

Any way to mess with Timing to make it happier at 120v. Or am I stuck due to Bar count on contacts?

Thanks
Paul


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

irish_pilot said:


> This was originally a 48 volt conversion, then next owner made it 120v
> How should I deal with the increased voltage? I assume I should not increase further? Its quite peppy now...but I don't want to fry it...
> 
> Any way to mess with Timing to make it happier at 120v. Or am I stuck due to Bar count on contacts?
> ...


It is likely the 33 bar comm. But short stack (5" core). I think EVfun runs his long core version over 100V (has the same comm). You know, don't you, raising battery volts doesn't necessarily increase motor voltage? I'd venture to say that motor never saw anywhere near 120, probably a whole lot less. If it had seen 120V, you'd have parts all over the road.

If it was working, put it back together the way it was. Run it for a while and figure out what you want to do.

major


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

Its actually running nicely, just short range. Thats why I was adding
2 fresh batteries to get more range...
Is there a way to limit voltage, or at least know the voltage I am sending it?
Has a kelly 144v controller...

Paul


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

irish_pilot said:


> Its actually running nicely, just short range. Thats why I was adding
> 2 fresh batteries to get more range...
> Is there a way to limit voltage, or at least know the voltage I am sending it?


Voltmeter comes to mind 

Some of the higher end controllers can be programmed to limit motor voltage. I don't think the Kelly is among that class, but check the manual.

If you're not looking for more motor speed at current limit, then you don't want more voltage to the motor anyway. Why not keep your same pack voltage and get a) higher Ah batteries or b) better batteries?



> Has a kelly 144v controller...


Too bad 

major


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

irish_pilot said:


> Thats why I was adding 2 fresh batteries to get more range...


 
Isn't this really bad for the pack? Won't the old cells slowly murder the new ones you add?


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

Voltmeter...ha! yeah but it varies so much on the battery system voltage
as I push the accelerator, I assume I would not be getting accurate voltage at the motor while running...(not sure on this)

I am trying to get 6months more from this battery pack, then hope to go lithium...if the budget allows
Paul


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## irish_pilot (Jan 25, 2011)

I am keeping the pack separate for charging...
See this thread...
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/adding-batteries-tired-battery-packi-55956.html
Paul


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

irish_pilot said:


> Voltmeter...ha! yeah but it varies so much on the battery system voltage
> as I push the accelerator, I assume I would not be getting accurate voltage at the motor while running...(not sure on this)


Just get a decent quality analog vlotmeter and wire it to the motor. It will read just fine. Do NOT try to use a digital meter because it is likely to bounce all over the place due to electrical noise. But an analog movement averages all that crap out and works nicely.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Irish,

I am going to do something rash here and disagree with Major!

You are asking about fitting two more batteries to increase the range - that should work you are not increasing the motor voltage just the controller voltage

The controller will effectively reduce the voltage to what the motor needs - only if you use the extra umf to increase the motor revs or current will the motor see an increased voltage

Your controller is the limiting step for battery voltage,
The motor is only limited by current and rpm - it does not care what the battery voltage is.

I expect your Kelly already limits the motor current so unless you try to rev your motor in a lower gear the higher voltage battery pack should not hurt the motor

The two extra batteries will reduce the load on the existing batteries - the issue is probably going to be how you charge them


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Duncan said:


> I am going to do something rash here and disagree with Major!


Hey Dunc,

I don't see anything you wrote which disagrees with what I said.

I guess Irish had already determined he is going to add batteries to his series string to increase range. Then he comes to this thread asking how that affects his motor. You and I both say it does not, provided he uses it the same as before, current and speed.

Agreed 

major


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

Hello All, 
Newbie here, read all this business for the last 2 weeks and learned lots. I'm hoping to get insight into these motors. I want to do a conversion to a car eventually and a Farmall Cub sooner. I will start small first.
The story: Yale 3K# sitdown. 36V. 3 Motors, pwr Steering pump, Ohio. Hyd Pump motor Yale, 8 x 11, 90# or so. Traction motor Yale, 10 x 12.5, 130# maybe more. also got the ev100 and curtis batt controller and entire wiring harness intact. No charger or batteries. 
I can also take apart a Pettibone that is 4k# with bigger motors and only 700 hrs.
Can I use the bigger motors pictured below? I know, I will take them apart. They all spin, but I haven't stuck the v/o meter on yet.
P.S. What happened to Hightourque electric? his website isn't up.
Thanks for your help.
-Daniel


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hitorque is now http://www.jimerico.net/


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks guys. 
I got the smaller Yale motor apart, it's a 7.25" would that be better for a lawn tractor... Or small kit type of vehicle or 3 wheel bike..
What does the tool look like to get the retention clips out of the bearing. Any secrets on easing the motors apart and how delicate do I have to be. This one came apart relatively easily. Little taps with a small mallet with thick (in my case old socks) cloth covering the impact area, then prying apart gently with small pry bars.. Is that okay? Are these motors more resilient than a little tapping? I Know not to scrape the metal and bash the bearings in btw.
Anyway here's some pics of the comm and all.















I need to get some tools for the big motor checkup.







How much would I expect to pay for a new shaft to be machined and lathed out for this motor if it was good. Does this one look worth using?
I thank you all for your help and inspiration. 
-D


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm using a 7.5 inch Yale from Jim Husted in my AMPhibian, it would be a good motor for a lawn tractor or other small vehicle, but I don't think it's worth having a new shaft made, if you can even get the old one out. It really needs external cooling as there is no internal fan.


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

> I'm using a 7.5 inch Yale from Jim Husted in my AMPhibian


Does the Yale motor look similar to what I have? I do have the pump housing apart and the male shaft with gear. Could it work out to use those bits, possibly do a chain drive. It would have to be held in place.
So the fins below (or above in the pic I have above) the comm don't move enough air around there? Feel free to correct me at every turn, I'm learning


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes similar to yours, but mine had a male shaft. You might be able to work something out with the pump drive. You also might get away without a fan depending on how much low end load you put on the motor and for how long. I've been running without a fan but I do short bursts of high amp draw, I'm thinking of adding some cooling anyway. The motor does move some air but not much.


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

that motor is a no go. looking at it, seems to me even if I used the pump gear, that slot (pictured up above w/ the tape measure) it fits into is just going to break off or put a lot of pressure on the bearing... I knew the male shaft was better, I can't get the comm shaft out of the brush housing. Jim warned me they are a pain to get out. I"m still trying to push the shaft out of the bearing in the brush housing though.

Now I need to go over the big motor I have. Any hints on getting the nut off the drive gear? keeping it from just spinning??
thanks for your time.


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## thominabox (Nov 22, 2009)

HI my name is Thom Rumbach I also have a 1962 RAMBLER AMERICAN wagon I have a 260 lb outis motor


Cberg said:


> Hey guys, i am new to the ev scene and i have a few questions>
> 
> Can anyone give me the specs for this motor, Raymond 570 207 200? I have access to it and i was thinking about using it on my ev. I have an old Rambler American Super 1958, that i want to use as my donor vehicle. the cars starting weight is 2400#. My goal is to get 30-40 miles with a max speed of 55.. Not sure what i will end up with, but you have to start somewhere..
> 
> ...


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## HAS (Mar 28, 2011)

I,m getting a clark Ec60B forklift,still in a snowbank.do you know the drive motor,make windings,wieght,etc,?-will use motor in 1991 sonoma ext.cab.autom.trasm.New at thise.will be my winter project.THanks,HAS


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## sukusia (Mar 25, 2011)

Guys,
Is this motor strong enough for a simple conversion. I'm trying for a 20-25 mile range and a top speed of 40-45 mph with my Saturn sl1. 

http://www.evdrives.com/dd_motors_ES-15-6.html

I saw someone use it in their conversion but I'm not 100% sure its the same motor.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/263

In general, how much horsepower and torque am I looking for in a new motor?
Thanks for your help.


----------



## sukusia (Mar 25, 2011)

Thank you for your fast reply. The drive to my work is only 9 miles, so that's 18 miles to and from. The speed limit is 90% of the time a 35 mph zone with only 2 hills(45 mph the last 10%). Also my work is a complete straight shot from where i live (on the other side of town). So i am still considering this motor, however another motor has caught my eye.  I just sent you an email.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> My Ghia at 96 volts and a nice 9" GE motor and a controller that could put out a solid 700 amps could not go more than 25 miles at a speed range from 45 mph to 55 mph. At the end of that 25 miles it was just plain draggin butt. Any thing beyond that was just a crawl. Usable speeds and distance was about 20 miles at the worst conditions.


What you describe sounds a lot more like battery limitations than motor limitations, unless the motor was overheating during use. 96 volts at 700 amps is actually more power than my 115 volts at 550 amp system, and I can easily hit 75 mph with more to go, and I've gotten 50 miles of range.


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## sukusia (Mar 25, 2011)

Guys, I think I'm going to give in and get a warp9 "impulse" motor. It seems to be overkill for what i'm doing, but from what I've read, it looks like its dependable. Would paul and sabrina's controller (the cougar) work on this very well? Whats the cheapest (legit) website to get the motor from?

I tossed out the idea of the D&D ES-15-6 motor, then i was considering the D&D ES-31B Motor. After reading a lot about the motor it seems that it doesn't hold up well. Any thoughts or suggestions on this to sway me from the warp9?

Very tired,
Joe


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> My Ghia would do 85 mph. Motor never got hot with the external fan. I know it was the batteries. But pushing the batteries would not let me get more than that. If I went slower then I could go longer distances. You really getting 50 miles at 45 to 55 mph? Really!


Yes, really, with a lot of hills as well. Point is it has nothing to do with the motor it's all about the KWh of the battery pack and the efficiency of the vehicle. 50 miles from my 12KWh pack is 240wh/mi in normal mixed driving of 30-60mph. Of course I don't normally take the pack all the way down but my normal range is about 40 miles on a charge.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The garage numbers were estimates before I had completed the vehicle. Guess I should update that.


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

*series, shunt or compound?*

Hello,
I dont want to hijack but this looks like the corect thread, any one have any thoughts on this motor? I know its from a linde forklift that had a drive and lift motor and this one being the lift motor i also know its plate's 48v 310 amp 12KW but thats about it with a serial number, its of a 99 forklift so it is a dc I think, as linde are now ac systems and the older are dc, hoping a trained eye can pick out if it is a series, shunt or compound motor as I cant find any info or tell my self or even get to the motor as it is a long way.

Thanks Tom.


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

can anyone shed any light on this motor? starting to think it may be separately excited, its on the previous page now.

thanks.


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## sukusia (Mar 25, 2011)

I don't know that much about motors, but if your asking if its a series vs a shunt, a series motor has four terminals to connect a power source to. So, it looks like a series wound. Thats all i can tell you. I'm wondering where Major is. Hes a genius. Seek him out and ask him any questions you have.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: series, shunt or compound?*



tom_001 said:


> I know its from a linde forklift that had a drive and lift motor and this one being the lift motor i also know its plate's 48v 310 amp 12KW .......if it is a series, shunt or compound motor


Hi tom,

It is the hoist lift pump motor, so the 12kW rating would be for a 15% duty cycle or similar intermittent duty. Would be series or compound wound and unidirectional. About all I can tell with limited info. Except to note it is close coupled to pump, so would likely have an internal spline which makes it difficult to couple to a car's driveline

Regards,

major


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks, yes its for a bike, zzr 600 sitting in garage now (the easy bit lol), so normal cruising will be in the much lower amp draw?, but I do have hills that need to climb so i was hoping that this motor will be able to handle it as it will only be worked hard on hills and hard acceleration? I'm going to try to get more pics as i want to use a programmable alltrax due to price and size, the sep-ex controllers only rated at 48v and the series 72v wanted to use 72v series but 48v sep-ex probably not that much of a difference with a fue more amps present. so dose it matter if its one or the other?
I'd just hate to get some weird compound motor that needs a dedicated controller lol.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tom_001 said:


> so dose it matter if its one or the other?


Sure it does. You cannot use a SepEx controller on a series motor. And I am 99.9% sure it is not a SepEx (or shunt) motor. And I still say you'll have difficulty with that motor's shaft even on a bike. However if you can couple to it, the motor itself looks like it would be strong for an el moto, assuming it is in decent running condition. BTW concerns me a bit that there are little fans attached to this motor. Those are not OE, so it could be this motor was running hot and the owner was attempting additional cooling.


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello, 
Don't think they are oem fans, dam i wish it was closer so i can see it and get a better idea, shame because it's just about what i wanted, thanks for the help I'll Waite for something closer so i can get my mits on it lol.

What I meant was apart from speed control and some starting torque, are there any major disadvantage is i was to get a lower voltage, higher amp sep-ex rather than a slightly higher voltage series, mind the field of a sep-ex cant normally handle more than the rated voltage so less to play with and less controllers I'd guess.

Thanks for the help again.


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## Willy (Apr 11, 2011)

Hi all,
My son and I are giving it go at building our own EV out of a 92 Jeep Commanche pick-up. I located 2 forklifts, with the same motor, at a local junk yard and was hoping to find out if the drive motor will work with the 5 speed transmission in the truck. We are also planing to use a 8.5hp/5500watt gen. to extend the range. 
The motors is in a Crown forklifts. 
Motor Model#W11AB04 Rating 7.4/9.6kw with a 1hr duty Voltage rating 36/48v
Would this type of motor work for our project? 





Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all
> 
> I thought I'd chime in and discuss the basics on choosing a forklift motor. In general, I advise people to look for a motor that weighs between 100 to 150 lbs. The heavier the car, the heavier the motor needs to be to push it around. The way I see it is, you don't want Peewee hermin trying to pull you around but you probably don't want to feed Hulk Hogan either, lol.
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

13 hp continuous sounds a little small for such a large vehicle. How big is the motor? Pictures?


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## lukeby (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi, i'm searching for good forklift motors, and I found one, for just about 400$ but I'm not sure, is it good for EV. So, the specs are: 75Volts, 100A, 6.3kW, weights about 75kg, and seller said, its 1400rpm, and thats the thing which is bothering me. Is this not enough? does the rpm actualy cares in EV? Thanks for answers.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes RPM's matter and that is too low. Even if you double the voltage that would still probably be too low.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Willy said:


> Hi all,
> My son and I are giving it go at building our own EV out of a 92 Jeep Commanche pick-up. I located 2 forklifts, with the same motor, at a local junk yard and was hoping to find out if the drive motor will work with the 5 speed transmission in the truck. We are also planing to use a 8.5hp/5500watt gen. to extend the range.
> The motors is in a Crown forklifts.
> Motor Model#W11AB04 Rating 7.4/9.6kw with a 1hr duty Voltage rating 36/48v
> Would this type of motor work for our project?


Good motor for your needs.
See here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/smart-fortwo-ev-high-power-version-51472p6.html

11" diameter, but short length. So roughly comparable to a Warp 9 (200-250 lbs-ft of torque at 1000A).


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## lukeby (Apr 19, 2011)

gottdi said:


> The Specs given here are more than likely on the tag which means at 75 volts and 100 amps it will run at 1400 rpm all day long more or less. That is the usual meaning of motor tags. It does not mean that it won't go faster than 1400 rpm. It will. Just how much? Not sure. Will it take more than 75 volts? More than likely. Can it handle more than 100 amps? More than likely. Still, how much is not known. Could it be used in a small light weight vehicle? Maybe.
> 
> $400 bucks a good price for so many unknowns? NO.
> 
> ...


I do have a one picture. (right specs are in the first column)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hello to all,


My Go-Kart's motor looking so far, still has a lot of work to be done with my project.

I want to make sure every item look perfect


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## lukeby (Apr 19, 2011)

gottdi said:


> That is a Kostov Motor and it is a good quality motor. However the 6.3Kw motor is a bit tiny for a conversion. I am assuming that the motor is more for lifting than motivating. The 9" and 11" Kostov motors are good choices. I have two 11" Kostov motors with some spare parts and fields. The motor you have is a non interpole motor. Might want to hunt for a larger drive motor. It may be a good motor for a small vehicle application like a buggy.
> 
> Pete


Ok then, I'll look for another motor. Thanks


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## redbull (Mar 4, 2009)

albano said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> 
> My Go-Kart's motor looking so far, still has a lot of work to be done with my project.
> ...


Wow! What a shiny gold motor. Don't rush, take your time! 
Nice job there man!


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Moved as not noticed here


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## HAS (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi All.posted ,my motor allis-chalmer,no pictures.My son got some on side. do you know were to find brushes for this motor.Also will need help to find all controller,charger ETC.THanks H.A.S.


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## awar (May 10, 2010)

hi! i am new here,i am from romania,i have found a motor with damaged label.
i have pictures with it,and some info what can be readed:
HYSTER Voltage 69........
Serial Nro: 3791/10
Hyster part..... 325427

diameter is 26cm(10,2 inch),and about 40cm(16inch) long.

i have some pictures with the motor,maybe somebody is knowing the parameters of it,lile rpm/kw.
thank you!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

awar said:


> hi! i am new here,i am from romania,i have found a motor with damaged label.
> i have pictures with it,and some info what can be readed:
> HYSTER Voltage 69........
> Serial Nro: 3791/10
> ...


I think you have yourself an excellent motor there for a conversion. Major is the motor guru, however, I have a GE motor from a Hyster lift. Mine is a 9" diameter, yours must be an 11". You will need to change the bearings and make sure you get sealed ones (vs the open style shown on the DE) You should also get some pictures of the brushes and post. Find out bar count and number/type of brushes... but I'd say you have a keeper there.


----------



## awar (May 10, 2010)

thank you! then the motor will arrive to me in 2 weeks.


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## Square (Feb 15, 2009)

Got this motor a couple years ago, it was a good deal and I'm thinking of using it for a motor cycle. 
tag MJT-4009 24V, is it useful?

I got a full system with an EV-1 controller but will just scavenge contactors etc. from it.

My brother says I can advance the brushes and wrap them in fire tape but that is about all I get out of him.

Sorry this is my first post, Hi All.

Thx
Chris


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## Electric_VW (Jan 11, 2011)

Hello guys and gals - I've been searching and reading this forum for quite a while and formulating what I want in an electric bug. This is my first post.

I've got the donor car - its being painted and having it's suspension updated and new disc brakes on all 4 corners to help take on the extra weight of the batteries it'll have to cart around. I was planning (sort of) on a DC motor from a forklift. Well I seem to have found an AC setup IF I can use it. I don't know what the motor is - or the controller but I'm hoping someone here will know something about it or one similar to it. 

The lift is a Toyota 7fbcu25. It is a 5000 pound net lift and I'd be looking at buying the traction motor and controller - it is a 48 volt AC setup - a 2005 model year IIRC. I can get it for a great price since it is otherwise going to be scrapped. 

Anyone have any idea of whether it would work for an EV conversion?

What an awesome site! I've been reading a lot - including maybe half of this thread and have learned a lot but still have a long ways to go.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's rather low voltage for a car.


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## efoster (May 18, 2011)

Hello, 
This is my first post and I'm new to the forum. I just purchased a '69 volkswagen bug for my project and just saw a 72v motor on eBay that I think would be good? Could anyone tell me if this motor will suit my needs?

I am hoping to get highway speed (65) and a range of 40miles.

link to motor 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...858280&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1156


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

efoster said:


> Hello,
> This is my first post and I'm new to the forum. I just purchased a '69 volkswagen bug for my project and just saw a 72v motor on eBay that I think would be good? Could anyone tell me if this motor will suit my needs?
> 
> I am hoping to get highway speed (65) and a range of 40miles.
> ...


 
They don't tell much on the tag. It looks like it would be hard to find a coupler for it.
alvin


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## efoster (May 18, 2011)

> They don't tell much on the tag.


Thanks for the quick reply. What questions should I ask the seller in regards to the sketchy tag?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a really heavy motor for a bug. Also, it may have low rotation speed since it's wound for 72 volts. I don't think it's a good choice.


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## efoster (May 18, 2011)

Thanks! I think I'll pass on this one and keep looking and educating myself on exactly what will suite me best.


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## mz bike (Apr 16, 2011)

Where does everyone look for these used fork lift motors and how much do you expect to pay
Phil


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I found my motor at a forklift repair shop. They gave me an 11'' G.E. for $50. Oh and they gave me the pump motor also, and the controller. I think they just wanted to help someone convert to electric. I have been using the motor in my ranger for 2 yrs now. 144 volt system without any mods to motor.

Alvin


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## mz bike (Apr 16, 2011)

thanks Alvin I'll try that.
But that aside about a pump motor had me confused ;What would you use that for - I take it this is the motor that pressurises the hYdraulic forks
Phil


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

mz bike said:


> thanks Alvin I'll try that.
> But that aside about a pump motor had me confused ;What would you use that for - I take it this is the motor that pressurises the hYdraulic forks
> Phil


 
The pump motor could be used for something else. Maybe a very light vehicle. I got it just in case. 

Alvin


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## mz bike (Apr 16, 2011)

alvin said:


> The pump motor could be used for something else. Maybe a very light vehicle. I got it just in case.
> 
> Alvin


That has me excited Alvin
ALthough new to this game I have long thought on converting a reliant Robin??? -Plastic bodied some 900 lbs three wheeler.( and this is before the I/C motor is removed)
Do you think a pump motor would drive this?
The Robin also has a large storage space for its size and I was thinking what the idea lacked in performance it might have in endurance which is my main aim.
This would be so light it would need the batteries in the boot to stop it blowing away in the wind
Of course I am also thinking a pump motor would be easier to find in UK as my search for a main motor hitherto has been fruitless
Phil


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi Phil,

Don't know where in the UK you are, but if you are anywhere near chesterfield you could try www.forktruckbreakers.com 

They have a shed full of used forklift motors, I just got a nice 9" drive motor from there and noticed whilst rummaging around the shed they have lots of 8" motors in there that should be up to moving your reliant around. 

They won't be able or want to tell you much over the phone, it's the sort of place you need to turn up and ask to look at what they have.

Bad news is they usually want £250 for one, wish we had $50 motors here in the UK

Regards

Paul


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

The pump motor I have is just under 8" . It's a GE also but the label says 20% duty . I think major said something once that this motor might work if I had a fan blowing air into it. A 900 lb. car should be light enough.

The forklift place I went to thought that it was a cool thing to do. I guess that is why they gave it to me so cheap.

Alvin


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## mz bike (Apr 16, 2011)

alvin said:


> The pump motor I have is just under 8" . It's a GE also but the label says 20% duty . I think major said something once that this motor might work if I had a fan blowing air into it. A 900 lb. car should be light enough.
> 
> The forklift place I went to thought that it was a cool thing to do. I guess that is why they gave it to me so cheap.
> 
> Alvin


Thanks Alvin 
YOu've got me moving in the right direction now


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## mz bike (Apr 16, 2011)

Thanks Paul
As you say all the motors are in the US. There is a place here in Scotland so I have learned and if the weather holds I will get the bike out and have a look- If that fails I will try forkliftbreakers.
Seems like the Robin is a possibility
Phil


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Wow, nice to see this thread is still going productively since Jim started it back in 2008. It has nearly 150 pages of posts. Does anyone remember seeing anything on this thread about reusing motors with the female splined shafts. What are some fixes folks use to be able to utilize these motors.

I got a little Raymond and underneath the fan where it mounts to the DE there is a drift pin underneath going through the shaft. If I pop that pin out is it actually just a sleeve that the fan mounts to?

Mike


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

electrabishi said:


> Wow, nice to see this thread is still going productively since Jim started it back in 2008. It has nearly 150 pages of posts. Does anyone remember seeing anything on this thread about reusing motors with the female splined shafts. What are some fixes folks use to be able to utilize these motors.


I imagine if you can get the shaft that mated with the motor, you could easily make an adapter out of that. Pretty sure there's at least one thread that describes that for a build, somewhere around here, a couple years old I think.

I also think I recall that at least some of the female-spline motors are pump motors, and some of those are made to only run in one direction, which may or may not be the right direction to directly drive your transmission or wheels, without a gear or chain "reduction" stage (which could just be 1:1, if you preferred).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> Wow, nice to see this thread is still going productively since Jim started it back in 2008. It has nearly 150 pages of posts. Does anyone remember seeing anything on this thread about reusing motors with the female splined shafts. What are some fixes folks use to be able to utilize these motors.
> 
> I got a little Raymond and underneath the fan where it mounts to the DE there is a drift pin underneath going through the shaft. If I pop that pin out is it actually just a sleeve that the fan mounts to?
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike,

Yeah, pretty amazing thread the old motor dog started. Wish he was around to answer your question  But I'll give it a go.

Most times the internal spline on these pump motors is broached thru an insert which is then pinned (or sometimes welded) onto a stub shaft. This is done to facilitate the fabrication of the internal spline. It is costly to put those spline teeth in a closed ended hole in the end of the shaft.

The other thing about this process is that it is done with a semi-finished shaft, or rough turned (except for the insert fit). Then the finish machining and bearing journal grinding is done. Then the armature built on the shaft.

You run into difficulty knocking out the pin and removing the splined insert. The drive end bearing journal is on the insert as well as the shaft center. The pin is also likely under the armature coil end turns. It is simply a non serviceable item, although I have heard of some who do it.

Jimbo reuses these pump motor armatures by replacing the entire shaft. The right way to do it. Even that takes his special skill and tool (the 8 foot stick ).

Too bad it is so hard to do because some of these pump motors are ripe for EV drives, especially the old Prestolite and GE 7.2 and 9 inch models.

Regards,

major


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yeah, pretty amazing thread the old motor dog started. Wish he was around to answer your question  But I'll give it a go.
> 
> ...



Thanks Major. I see what you're talking about. I pulled the fan off, see the drift pin and was able to remove, and see how the insert comes out. I've decided to leave it in and do something more drastic to this motor so its probably better Jim isn't here to hear it. He'd probably poke my eyes out with his Spartan spear. But here goes.

Going to use this Raymond W6AB12 36V series motor (wired for one-way - but at least its the right way for the bike) for a Honda CB360T. Even if I were to pull the insert and put a stub shaft in with a machined bearing journal, it will still put the sprocket so far out that the motor will need to hang way off the right side of the bike. So instead of building a special gearbox to hang off the side i'm thinking (close your ears Jim) of taking the fan out, putting my sprocket in place of the fan and letting the chain enter/exit through some cutouts I'm going to put in the DE plate. This will let me get the motor more to the centerline of the bike and is an easy fix. I have just enough room to run a 40 roller chain to clear the arm coils and the end plate. I think a 50 chain would rub the motor housing and I would have to notch it slightly to use 50 chain.

I don't think the motor will get too hot on a single run without the fan. The Junior motor (same size) never even got warm on a run). I could probably even drive it 6 miles to work without it getting too hot. the set up is right now a 48V 40AH TS pack and the Logi 72v/1000 A controller. We ran this controller on the Junior prior to its Z1K upgrade and it pushes that 350 lb Junior to 65 mph in 660 feet. So that should push a 250 bike around pretty good. Might get another set of TS-40's to push it up to 72V.

Anyway, what do you all think of that to be able to use a female spline shaft motor with minimal mods.

Mike


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

electrabishi said:


> ...So instead of building a special gearbox to hang off the side i'm thinking (close your ears Jim) of taking the fan out, putting my sprocket in place of the fan and letting the chain enter/exit through some cutouts I'm going to put in the DE plate. This will let me get the motor more to the centerline of the bike and is an easy fix. I have just enough room to run a 40 roller chain to clear the arm coils and the end plate...
> 
> Anyway, what do you all think of that to be able to use a female spline shaft motor with minimal mods.
> 
> Mike


I love creative thinking, and that is definitely out of the box!  One concern though: chain lube inside the motor!  Unless, you're going to run the chain completely dry and replace it more often. Is there room to put a baffle between the chain and internals of the motor? That way it would prevent some of the mess from getting in the motor, and protect them against shrapnel, in the event the chain breaks. Maybe you can cut a port in the frame for forced air?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I see what you intend to do, sounds like an interesting 'get around'.
Just wondering if you would need a thin disc between the sprocket and the windings to reduce any oily mess getting thrown inside the motor.

You could always add an external fan if cooling is needed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you two sharing a brain?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are you two sharing a brain?


I hadn't even noticed that Todd had posted while I was posting!

Maybe we do share a brain!
Todd is welcome to mine at the moment, it's not working well so I have been off sick for the last six weeks and just out of hospital a few days ago. 

Due for a brain scan shortly to see what's wrong.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn, sorry to hear that Woods. Hope it all comes out alright.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers JRP,
The big problem now is the boredom (aside from the headaches, dizziness, nausea, weakness). I have been banned from the workshop and advised not to drive unless absolutely necessary.

I want to get on with making stuff while I'm not allowed to work.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

Did anyone here get some emails from infantry11b - got hacked from china and peru and they started sending emails. if you did, DON'T FOLLOW THE LINK, JUST DELETE IT! think I have it solved.

___________________________________________________________

here is a pm i got and a response that might be helpful. nothing you probably dont alread know but hope it can help some.

yes to both.
i used a number only for the password and programs exist that can scan and crack them.
i changed to a alpha numeric system with caps and special characters - and made it long. now i have to paste the password in to get it right, but that should work.
also you can go into yahoo and look at your history under your profile and see where your account has been accessed from - i saw that some were from lima and china.
good luck 
you might want to post this if you feel it is helpful. i have no problem with that.

QUOTE=dynosor]Hi Infantry
Do you have any idea how your account was h acked? Do you have any advice to prevent this sort of thing?
Cheers
dynosor[/QUOTE]


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Are you two sharing a brain?


Great minds... 



Woodsmith said:


> I hadn't even noticed that Todd had posted while I was posting!
> 
> Maybe we do share a brain!
> Todd is welcome to mine at the moment, it's not working well so I have been off sick for the last six weeks and just out of hospital a few days ago.
> ...


I can dig out some (brain) donor material if you need it, since we share one anyway.  Just let me know ahead of time, I may need a couple hours off work to recover.

Seriously, I hope everything's okay Woody.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Great minds...
> 
> 
> I can dig out some (brain) donor material if you need it, since we share one anyway.  Just let me know ahead of time, I may need a couple hours off work to recover.
> ...


I might take you up on that if they don't find any.

I should be fine (I hope), just bored as I can't work, paid or on projects.


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

Howdy once again!
I've been over at endless-sphere, but I got inspired by this thread6 months ago.
I found a couple of forklifts, low hours, former AF use, one pettibone pnuematic and one Yale, both sitdown and full of motors and contactors.
all said and done, 4 GE motors, one 12", one 11.5" one 9" and one 7".
ANd 2 ohio pump motors. the one from the pettibone has a male nub where the coolling fan fins were.

That's where Forkentrike comes in.
thank you all for your knowledge and help, take a look.















the motor


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

and here's the bike I started with







and after cutting hole and reinforcing and redoing safety features and wiring and on and on....

























It moves pretty well, running it at 48v.
drive sprocket is 16t and driven is 125t.
cooling fan is marine turbo fan pulling fresh air 165 cfm.
Since it's in and enclosed area I figured since I fried the little
1000w motor I had before.
here's a video too:
forkentrike
I did a thread on endless sphere too

Now I have to change my name since I AM EV now! YAY for me!
thanks for your time
Be back with some tractor projects soon!
cheers


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

soon2bEV said:


> ANd 2 ohio pump motors. the one from the pettibone has a male nub where the coolling fan fins were.
> 
> That's where Forkentrike comes in.


 
Hi soon,

If by trike, you mean something like a heavy bicycle, then these 5.6" brushed PM motors would work. If you're talking motorcycle size vehicle, watch out. These are made for continuous duty pump drive with average of about one HP and short overloads of maybe twice that for just a few seconds infrequently. These motors are good for that, but can be trouble for vehicle propulsion where accelerations require sustained overload. The brushes and comm won't take it. Also, you might up the power with higher voltage, but being totally enclosed, that will not improve the rating much, if at all. Removing the coverband and ventilating the opposite end will help, but only so much.

I've used similar motors (one in fact was an Ohio) for garden tractors. They actually work nicely for that. Top speed about 4 to 6 mph, so heavily gear reduced. On one of the tractors running at 48V, my battery ammeter only goes to 50A and I rarely if ever peg it and normally run at like 15A. And I don't drive them for more than 10 minutes at a time, occasionally longer if I am pulling the yard sweeper.

So think twice if your average power requirement is much above one HP and you need reasonably quick acceleration with much vehicle mass.

Regards,

major


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## soon2bEV (Mar 14, 2011)

Hey Major,
Yes, exactly, its for the three wheeled bike, forkentrike, pictured above. I am cruising at about 12 amps/ 48v. I keep the acceleration moderately slow around 25amps, and help pedal to start, after all it is a bike, just faster three wheel bike. I could easily pin the
needle in the ammeter if I wanted to, I have had it up to 40+ amps for a split second or two going up hill. I do know to watch the current and volts applied from the controller. 

For the garden tractor I plan on using a GE motor I have. I was just saying, next was going to be a tractor project. sorry I say so much all at once...
I'm like a kid when it comes to this electrification.

I also have plans on a garden gadabout made from an old power wheelchair
with dual motors/transmissions on an H frame, just need an arc welder...
anywho, thanks for looking
and thanks even more for the inspiration


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## painter007 (Aug 1, 2009)

I can use some help. I have this eaton motor that i got from a forklift that was 48 volts and what to use it in a 1961 renualt caravelle convertable that weights 1800lb.I would like to keep it 48volts but I need a controller for it.would a curtis 48volt 600amp work.and there is four connection lugs on the motor which connection would i use.here is a picture. Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

painter007 said:


> I can use some help. I have this eaton motor that i got from a forklift that was 48 volts and what to use it in a 1961 renualt caravelle convertable that weights 1800lb.I would like to keep it 48volts but I need a controller for it.would a curtis 48volt 600amp work.and there is four connection lugs on the motor which connection would i use.here is a picture. Thanks


Hi paint,

Looks like a nice motor, maybe a 9 or 11 inch diameter model. I can see part of the comm, so it is a brushed DC, likely series wound. You'll need to use all 4 terminals, 2 for the field and 2 for the armature (which are connected to the brushes). Armature and field wired in series. 

I don't think Curtis makes a 600 amp controller at 48 V. For a car conversion, I think you'll want to run higher voltage with that motor.

Regards,

major


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Get a Synkromotive controller and go with 72 volts instead and then just cut back the full power to less than 100% If you really want 48 like power. I'd just stick with 72 volts. That motor should do quite well with 72 volts. The controller will be good to 156 volts and you are fully able to configure it. It is a very nice powerful controller with more than enough amps to do you good.
> 
> Pete


If you want 48V or even go to 72V like TDI says consider the Logisystems 72V/1000A controller. while there has been lots of trouble with the higher voltage Logi's, the 72V non-programmable unit is solid. I ran mine on a Junior dragster before it went to a Z1K, have it on the mini chopper now, and may wind up putting it on the Honda CB-360 I'm working on.

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is Logisystems still in business after all their problems?


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## painter007 (Aug 1, 2009)

there is a curtis 1204 48v 600amp on ebay.from the replies, can i run this motor at 72volts without any mods to it.thanks for all the help.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

painter007 said:


> there is a curtis 1204 48v 600amp on ebay.


Careful what you buy on eBay. See http://curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ProductsGrid.Series Click on data sheets. The 1204 models go up to 325 A for current limit. The 1205 36/48 V model is a 500 A current limit with a 5 second boost of 600 A, whatever that means. I sure wouldn't count on it if I were you


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

major said:


> Careful what you buy on eBay. See http://curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ProductsGrid.Series Click on data sheets. The 1204 models go up to 325 A for current limit. The 1205 36/48 V model is a 500 A current limit with a 5 second boost of 600 A, whatever that means. I sure wouldn't count on it if I were you


Major,

I have a 600amps Curtis controller, here is the pic, can you tell me if is ok for a light vehicle and up to what volt can it goes. I have 4 of these controller.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

albano said:


> Major,
> 
> I have a 600amps Curtis controller, here is the pic, can you tell me if is ok for a light vehicle and up to what volt can it goes. I have 4 of these controller.


Hi alb,

Looks like a special model for a forklift OEM. Probably intended for a 40 cell PbAcid battery max. Should work fine for you up to 80 volts nominal. I'd bench test it first at your maximum battery voltage to be sure before building it into the vehicle.

Regards,

major


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## painter007 (Aug 1, 2009)

ok how about this kelly kdc48600 24v-48v series pm, price is ok .and what is a CAN Bus option for 79 dollars mean.thanks


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## painter007 (Aug 1, 2009)

painter007 said:


> I can use some help. I have this eaton motor that i got from a forklift that was 48 volts and what to use it in a 1961 renualt caravelle convertable that weights 1800lb.I would like to keep it 48volts but I need a controller for it.would a curtis 48volt 600amp work.and there is four connection lugs on the motor which connection would i use.here is a picture. Thanks


 what would have to be done to the motor to run at 72volts.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi,
Running a 48 volt motor at 72 volts, I don't think you'll have to do anything at all, it should be fine with it, if you were going up to 96v or more (I'm running my 48v motor at 144v!) it would be a good idea to advance the brushes accordingly, but at 72, it'll love it!

Maybe someone else such as major will qualify this to be the case..


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## painter007 (Aug 1, 2009)

ok you guy's talked me into 72 volts.I will get a kelly that will go higher.so i guess i will need contactor that will handle more voltage.how many amps of a controller should i get.thanks


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## evvbdave (Jul 19, 2011)

Hey y'all!

So much great info here - my eyes hurt!

Anyway - I have access to a trio of DC Pump motors. The legible parts of the nameplates state:

raymond corp
570-226-200
36v 
mnj 4001
prestolite

they look to be about 8in dia, maybe 12" ish long (didn't have tape with me..)

I can't find any specs on the web.
Does anyone have specs or an opinion on if these would be good candidates for EV use?

Looking at converting 3 series BMW (e30, mid 80's), early 90's honda civic, or maybe 280Z. Would like to run 120-144v. Open ReVolt controller?

Thanks!

Dave.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evvbdave said:


> Hey y'all!
> 
> So much great info here - my eyes hurt!
> 
> ...


Hi evvb,

If that part number is MJN-4001 it is a 6.6" dia compound power steer pump motor and not suitable for EV. If it is actually MNJ-4001, I think it would be a 9 inch diameter motor and might be appropriate size. Post up a photo.

Regards,

major


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## evvbdave (Jul 19, 2011)

major said:


> Hi evvb,
> 
> If that part number is MJN-4001 it is a 6.6" dia compound power steer pump motor and not suitable for EV. If it is actually MNJ-4001, I think it would be a 9 inch diameter motor and might be appropriate size. Post up a photo.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Major, Thanks for the reply.

Looks like it is the MNJ-4001 9inch dia one. Unfortunately, I will not have any pics for a few days, maybe a week. Is there any other info or specs available on this motor? Looks promising so far tho..

Dave.


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello again!
Still had no luck with with finding a good motor for a bike after half a year, now have this old beast,

Believe its from a old tow tractor, it is carzy heavy, originally was going to just vent it and remove weight from body, but opening it up looks like the field coils have been overheated and its much older than thought, the coil wire is in maybe glass and resin wrapping bubbly and cracked at the front. 

All this sed, it has 2" double brushed coms, and with some chopping about usable weight, probably rewind using ally for the field theres a bit of room to play with and copper for the armature, wont really be cost effective fore me to do this but want to make it work as the whole thing is a learning project.

It measures 13 1/2" long and 8 1/2" diameter, 24v, 1600 rpm and made by normand electrical, type states "series par"?

please any thoughts or help is appreciated!
Thanks Tom.


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

ok, well opened it up and coils much better condition than thought. I think I have it, each field coil is wound from twin 2mm wire, then two coils are in series internal conection, and then the two series coils in parolel, explanes an odd resistence reading for a sep ex.

So I think its a series motor, with two parolel sets of field coils, series par? is what was on the motor, can any one shead some light on this please.
Regards tom


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tom_001 said:


> ok, well opened it up and coils much better condition than thought. I think I have it, each field coil is wound from twin 2mm wire, then two coils are in series internal conection, and then the two series coils in parolel, explanes an odd resistence reading for a sep ex.
> 
> So I think its a series motor, with two parolel sets of field coils, series par? is what was on the motor, can any one shead some light on this please.
> Regards tom


Hi 001,

I think you're probably right. It is a series motor with the coils in series parallel. I think 2mm wire is like #12AWG and 2 wires in the coil and then coils in series parallel puts field copper in the ~160A range. Most series wound motors we see use rectangular copper ribbon for the field coils, but round wire of the appropriate gauge and parallel strands is also used. And the way it appears wired externally in the photo suggests it is series wound.

Regards,

major


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## tom_001 (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks for the help and from before, my multi meter is a toy, but my friend is a electrician and he is lending me a clamp on amp meter and a good multi meter so I can get some proper readings from each coil, if shot i'll put up a post of me trying to rewind them under motors. looks like a low rpm for a series is that peak efficacy/power rpm and not max, hope so.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Let me start by saying, "I know nothing about EV's." I've been reading and learning, but I still consider myself clueless... So, Correct me if I say anything wrong.

I picked up a NOS Prestolite MJU-4006 for $150 with the pump shaft. It's 7.2" Diameter by about 14" long and weighs around 90lbs. From what I've read somewhere it should already be 4 degrees advance because it's a single direction pump motor. How many volts will it handle like it is? Can I get it to live at 120v with cooling? I plan on building a Track-T which will weigh between 1200-1500lbs. I only need a top speed of 40mph and a range of 25miles. I plan to use Lithium cells (CALB or Winston).

Thanks for any information.

Mike


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

madmike8 said:


> Let me start by saying, "I know nothing about EV's." I've been reading and learning, but I still consider myself clueless... So, Correct me if I say anything wrong.
> 
> I picked up a NOS Prestolite MJU-4006 for $150 with the pump shaft. It's 7.2" Diameter by about 14" long and weighs around 90lbs. From what I've read somewhere it should already be 4 degrees advance because it's a single direction pump motor. How many volts will it handle like it is? Can I get it to live at 120v with cooling? I plan on building a Track-T which will weigh between 1200-1500lbs. I only need a top speed of 40mph and a range of 25miles. I plan to use Lithium cells (CALB or Winston).
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

Yes, I am pretty sure the MJU-4006 has a 4.5º advance. It is a solid motor, 33 slot armature like the MTC except 5" core instead of 7". This relates to less flux meaning higher current for the torque and higher RPM. Boils down to this. I think 120V on the motor will overspeed it causing damage. 

Now realize that motor voltage isn't battery voltage. So you can have a 120V battery and limit motor voltage to say 80V. Of course this is a series wound motor so RPM goes higher with reduced load. Speaking of load, from memory, it has a nice internal fan and would likely carry a continuous rating of about 200A. 15 minute rating like about 325A and one minute maybe at 500A. Even 1000A for 10 or 20 seconds depending on the voltage and RPM.

I say your best bet is to get a tach on it and limit it to 5000 RPM in operation although it could probably take 6 or 7000.

Good luck,

major


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

major said:


> Now realize that motor voltage isn't battery voltage. So you can have a 120V battery and limit motor voltage to say 80V.


Most likely I'm misunderstanding things, but I thought the windings see full pack voltage and the Controller used pulse width modulation to limit things? Is there generally a setting for a controller that limits motor voltage? Or, is the motor RPM limit what I'm really concerned with? Sorry... but I'm confused...

Thanks for helping...

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

madmike8 said:


> Most likely I'm misunderstanding things, but I thought the windings see full pack voltage and the Controller used pulse width modulation to limit things? Is there generally a setting for a controller that limits motor voltage? Or, is the motor RPM limit what I'm really concerned with? Sorry... but I'm confused...
> 
> Thanks for helping...
> 
> Mike


Well, the pulse would be pack voltage but the average voltage over the duration of pulse/no pulse is the reduced voltage the motor sees.
The reduced top limit of voltage for the motor would cause the controller to never give a full voltage, ie no pulse gaps, so there will always be some 'no volt' gaps to keep the average voltage seen by the motor reduced.

That's how I understand it but someone will correct me if I am wrong.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks, Woodsmith. I think I understand better now.

Also, thanks major, for the information.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, going for the longest build in history... I took my Sepex motor down to the motor shop so that they could replace the front bearing. They guy there said that the armature is "grounded" and that the solution is to replace the armature (no more details one what he actually meant by this). The only check I'd performed on this motor was to ensure that it ran when I first received it. Not being an expert on motors, does anyone have thoughts on this prognosis, further validation, possible solutions? If the armature is grounded, it doesn't sound, to me at least, as though replacing it would help (and that's probably not going to happen anyway based on the cost). Is this likely to be fixable, or is it time to go and look for a new motor? Thanks,


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Well, going for the longest build in history... I took my Sepex motor down to the motor shop so that they could replace the front bearing. They guy there said that the armature is "grounded" and that the solution is to replace the armature (no more details one what he actually meant by this). The only check I'd performed on this motor was to ensure that it ran when I first received it. Not being an expert on motors, does anyone have thoughts on this prognosis, further validation, possible solutions? If the armature is grounded, it doesn't sound, to me at least, as though replacing it would help (and that's probably not going to happen anyway based on the cost). Is this likely to be fixable, or is it time to go and look for a new motor? Thanks,


Hi green,

It would be nice to see what I'm talkin' about  Big old GE or brand new D&D  Anyway, a ground in the armature is an insulation failure between the winding (or commutator) and the steel core. A motor shop will usually just put a 110VAC light bulb circuit across the steel core and a comm bar. If the light goes on, you're grounded. More sophisticated instruments can actually measure the resistance to ground. One must take care and not be fooled by brush dust causing this condition.

Some grounds can be repaired. They can be difficult to find and then tricky to fix. Most shops won't attempt it on small motors. It is cheaper for the customer to buy the service replacement part.

The motor will run with a single ground. However this does take your battery pack potential to vehicle ground, unless you're double insulated, which nobody does except ACP. I can't recommend you use a grounded motor as it may be a hazard to people in operation or even during charging. Should any other point in your EV system have leakage to ground (like from a battery) it could result in a fire.

Maybe get a second opinion 

major


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Big old GE


 This is a fork lift motor thread!


major said:


> Anyway, a ground in the armature is an insulation failure between the winding (or commutator) and the steel core. A motor shop will usually just put a 110VAC light bulb circuit across the steel core and a comm bar. If the light goes on, you're grounded. More sophisticated instruments can actually measure the resistance to ground. One must take care and not be fooled by brush dust causing this condition.
> 
> Some grounds can be repaired. They can be difficult to find and then tricky to fix. Most shops won't attempt it on small motors. It is cheaper for the customer to buy the service replacement part.


 Thanks Major. I don't think I'd want to use a car that is charged to 100+V. Probably worth us cleaning, and rechecking - might get lucky and find it's just dirt. A light bulb sounds easy enough. Is anything more sophisticated needed? Presumably, if the bulb doesn't light, you're probably OK, or you could measure the voltage and see what the drop is even if it doesn't light (need to search for an incandescent bulb!) Any typical trouble spots that might be an easy check if it's not just dust? Or is the problem generally buried and inaccessible?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

How about this one as a replacement/another option?? Guy wants $200 for the motor and $100 to pull it, so $300 total. I think it's a little high, but I'm currently visiting the vast metropolis of Salt Lake City, and will end up paying more, either in shipping, or in gas to drive miles to collect, once I leave the metropolis.

Anyone see any obvious problems, thoughts, ideas??

Haven't given up on the Sepex yet, but want to cover my bases. You can see from the foot that this is about 10" or so in diameter and about a foot long, so it should be a fairly decent size for the Suzuki Sidekick. Male shaft. I can't decide if the plate on the front is a liability or a good thing - it's from the bell housing on the fork lift transmission, so may be a good way to connect to the car's transmission, or may not (depends on the relative sizes). There's a big fan just behind the bell housing plate. 

Not a very good picture of the brushes or commutator, and I'm poorly qualified to judge these so I wish I had something a little better. I also wish I'd made a note of the labels on the terminals (I think that I thought that they'd be visible on the photos - no such luck). No idea whether this is series or sepex. I like the idea of a sepex motor (regen) and have a controller for that, but have come to see that there may be some advantages in series.


Thanks,


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Size? Comm count? Spec plate?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Size? Comm count? Spec plate?


Sorry, added the size later - it's about 10" diameter and about 12 long. The spec. plate,as I recall said 7.8KW and 48V and almost nothing else.

Didn't count the comms (really should re-read this whole thread before looking at motors - but it's been a busy week).


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Yes, re-read but the price is not terrible. [..] Is it a GE?


It's not a GE. That would be too easy - especially if it was the bolt pattern we've already measured/modeled.




gottdi said:


> Looks like it might be and that splined shaft may be a liability.


Jim Dear suggests putting a taper lock even on a spline.




gottdi said:


> The motors seems short. Fat and short. May work just fine and it will have good torque.


That may be the photo, it's a pretty decent size. I turned down the motor on the 5000lb truck because it was significantly larger. The sidekick is about 2200lbs curb weight with a gas engine, so I think that may move it. We're looking at 96V or 104V, max speed of about 50 (there's nowhere within range with a speed limit over 55).



gottdi said:


> Get some good photos. Are you relying on someone else to get you these photos or are you getting them yourself? Use a good camera. Not your cheap-O phone camera. Motor plate info photos too.


I'll see what I can get. We don't have much time to decide so unless someone else chimes in with negative, we'll probably take it.


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## sonicj (Mar 17, 2010)

i found this critter at the scrap yard. i think i paid around $14 out the door. im guessing its from a forklift pump...? the plan is to make it work in my 48V golf cart. the 4th picture shows the laminations compared to a stock Advanced motor. the brushes are roughly 3x the size of my stock motor. should make considerably more power over the stock setup.

my only major concern is the spines. they look like they were press fit but i can't tell for certain. anywho, that'll have to come off and a female club car coupler pressed on. 
-sj


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Sorry if this is off topic , but someone here may be able to help.

My wind turbine overvolted in gusting 110km winds and burned out the slip ring and dump losad.

The factorry suggested I check the windings. It is 96 volt nominal wild AC. During the storm I saw up to 100 volts a side.

The bearings are good and the windings look and smell fine. The stator jammed in the windings when the front end cap came about 1 inch out. I can't get it to move.

What should I do?

Thanks:
John


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

maybe the phases are shorted.Try this link.http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Alvin:

Stupid me. I should have said armature not stator,
.

I dont think the fields are shorted. The wires are disconnected and it turned fine a couple of days ago.

Gottdi:

The problem is that I cannot get it apart to troubleshoot. The rear plate came off leaving the bearing on the shaft. Thefront plate g is holding tight an the shaft and inthe housing. The front plate moves out about 1/2 inch and sticks tight. Maybe I need a big press but brute forcew coulkd shatter something.

Moisture during an overnight storm after I lowered the tower and generator head may be the problen; there is a bit of dust that looks like rust floating in the air while I'm working. Could a piece of crap have been dislodged and jam up the works?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

A magnet could have broken and is wedged in there . Will the front cover not come off? What ever good luck with it.


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

alvin said:


> A magnet could have broken and is wedged in there . Will the front cover not come off? What ever good luck with it.


It gets scary trying to move the front cover any farther. Cast iron can be brittle. I think the front bearing is stuck with corrosion but the seals have saved it- it is smooth.

I could heat the front plate to get it out of the way and the get the armature out in a big press. Fix it or f##k it eh. If it won't move any other way the chance is probably worth taking. I do have a big hammer but you know?

Thanks:
John


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

I'd use a 3-jaw puller to slowly push the shaft/bearing out of the front cover. It shouldn't hurt the cover depending on where the jaws end up, but it might damage the bearing if it's stuck to the cover. 

Using penetrating oil of some type on the cover/bearing interface might help release it, too. 

Once the cover is off, then you can better see why the armature won't move forward any further.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Push the cover back on and very lightly deburr the shaft with a little fine abrasive. Then clean, lube and use a puller gently.
If you are worried about the puller causing damage then tighten the puller to add some tension to the bearing and then tap the end of the puller with a hammer to shock the armature a little. Then add more tension and tap again.

I am assuming that there are no spring clips or circlips retaining it?

Can you shine a light into the open end to see if there is anthing between the armature and the stator? That may give you an idea why the armature won't come out with the DE cap. Maybe sliding a thin strip of plastic or card around the stator gap will indicate something sticking out of the armature.


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Push the cover back on and very lightly deburr the shaft with a little fine abrasive. Then clean, lube and use a puller gently.
> If you are worried about the puller causing damage then tighten the puller to add some tension to the bearing and then tap the end of the puller with a hammer to shock the armature a little. Then add more tension and tap again.
> 
> I am assuming that there are no spring clips or circlips retaining it?
> ...


Woodsmith:

There is little clearance , I can get a .002 feeler guage in about 1/4 inch. I did see a bit of something shiny, presumambly metel in there. Ther is a fair bit of fine dust that looks and smells like rust.

I moved the armature farther this morning; 1/2" vs. 1/4" yesterday. It now jumps back into the case when I turn ( with effort) the shaft. It may come out the back end more easily. I think I will try heat to expand the end case around the bearing ( no clip) and then maybe a puller gently.I may have to wait until I can get someone to give me a hand. Just holding the motor may make a difference.

Anyway, the solar panels are charging my lawnmower batteries for a bit of grass murdering later today.

Thanks:
John

Thanks:
John


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Anyway, a ground in the armature is an insulation failure between the winding (or commutator) and the steel core. A motor shop will usually just put a 110VAC light bulb circuit across the steel core and a comm bar. If the light goes on, you're grounded. More sophisticated instruments can actually measure the resistance to ground. One must take care and not be fooled by brush dust causing this condition.


 We put the light bulb (120V) across between commutator and the shaft. The light bulb lights, there's about 50V between the connections, so the light bulb lights about half way, and if you hang around long enough something gets hot and smokes. We pulled power as soon as we saw smoke so didn't inspect too closely, but it seemed to be coming from close to/around the commutator, so the hope is burning carbon. Our first thought is to clean the armature. Is there a recommended way to do that? It seems that the motor shop had a high pressure washer, but maybe they only used that on the case. Any harm in taking the armature (and the coils?) to the car wash and applying high pressure water, soap, engine degreaser, etc.?


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## Lhancock (Jun 3, 2010)

I apologize for interrupting the discussion, but I have a neighbor who has an 2009 AC Danaher motor out of a forklift. He is not sure what it came out of but the forklift rental and repair company he works with was cleaning up some rooms and the motor was sitting back there. They were just going to chuck it but my neighbor decided to grab it and get some cash by recycling it. He says it was probably a warranty motor that was never installed. I've thought about making an EV out of a small truck and I have always looked at DC motors but I really am not sure about AC. My neighbor said he would sell it to me for $50. Is it possible for someone to let me know if this motor would even be worth looking at for use in an EV? He is getting ready to junk it soon! 

Thanks

Lance


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Class F insulation isn't great, H seems to be standard now, the voltage is low, and you'll have trouble finding a controller to work with it, the controller won't be cheap, and if you do you'll probably have to mess with it a lot to get it working.
My thoughts, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't bother.


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

I found out why the armature won't come out when the supermagnets pulled a 3 foot pry bar out of my hand. China is accused of hogging up all the super magnet minerals ( instead of stealing them from Africans at gun point they cheat and pay for them). I guess it's true.

There is little clearance in there .002 with a feeler guage. Good bearings must be floating the armature at just the right place. I think the armature will pull itself back into the fields when it is turned. It clicks and bangs but goes in. The magnets must be hitting and missing as it turns.

I tried heating the front plate but the bearing won't move. I'm looking for a big pulley later this afternoon. The bearings are good but I think I should replace them anyway. Ifn that doesn't work , maybe a big industrial press will do it.

John


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

The effect I am experiencing is called cogging. Who knew?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cogging? Ahhh, I must have missed the bit about it being a PM motor.
The magnets will be pulling the armature back into the frame.


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## Lhancock (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks for the info! I really need to look more into AC motors so I know what I am looking at when an opportunity like this comes up. Any suggestions on what size, voltage, and RPM to look for?


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Woodsmith:

Youy didn't miss the PM part I didn't know what it was until this morning. The literature didn't tell me: I had thuse trial and error. Mostly error.

John


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Lhancock said:


> Thanks for the info! I really need to look more into AC motors so I know what I am looking at when an opportunity like this comes up. Any suggestions on what size, voltage, and RPM to look for?


If you can find one that's already paired with a Curtis 1238 controller around 84V or higher that would be ideal. I think a lot of forklifts use that setup, though they may be too new to be ending up in the scrap yard yet. Finding an AC motor that will work without having to do a whole lot of messing with and spending a lot on a controller for it may be close to impossible. If you really want AC and you don't really know what you are doing you should probably just pay for a new HPEVS system. That's what most of us who want AC are doing.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

rumleyfips said:


> The effect I am experiencing is called cogging. Who knew?


 If it is the magnets holding the rotor then brute force will remove it. But putting it back in could be very dangerous. Put the covers back on and see if it puts out any volts when you turn it. You can check the phases with an ohm meter. The whole stator is probably only 1.5 ohms. Where are the slip rings? Are they on there just for the pivot of the turbine on the tower?


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## Lhancock (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it. I usually do all the research on my own but I was on a time crunch. Thanks again!


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Alvin:

I thought about broken fingers when the armature snapped 2 " back inti the housing. I am restructuring my project. The bearings are smooth but I would still like to change them when the thing is apart. There is an electric motor shop about 45 minutes away. Maybe I should go there to get the bearings pulled and pressed.

The slip ring is just on the pivoy shaft. The whole head is three parts bolted together. The center mounts on the tower, pivots and contains the slip ring. There is an open bearing race at the pivot that shouls be changed to. I think with heat and using the housing as a slide hammer the slip ring will come off.

The generator head bolts on the ftail bolts on the back.

I don't have a price for the slip ring from China yet so I have lots of time.

Thanks:
John


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

John 

That sounds like the best thing to do. I have some homebrew turbines without slip rings. I just let the wire twist in the tower it doesn't make a full turn very often so no problem.

Alvin


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

I slip thje generator head back together; the bearings are good. If I have trouble later I can take it to a motor shop with a big press.

It put out 22-24 volts each side turned by hand so I think it is fine.

I asked for a price on a complete slip ring but I also asked about a complete centre casting with the slip ring and pivot already installed.

I can run new heavier wires for the dump load but I should rethink the fuses . I used 40 amp AC thinking that would protect at 20 amps. Guess not.

I would like to test the controller but don't know how. In would need 2 100 volt AC inputs to test for 96VDC out. Mains here are 119 and the diversion cuts in at about 120 VAC. Everything looks good but there might be a bit of discolouration on the relay case.

Wind patterns in our part of Nova Scotia have changed. Last winter there was either too little or to much but I like to watch the voltmeter when it's generating. I won't spend a fortune on wind; I'll make more solar panels.

John


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## vuuh (Jun 6, 2011)

How to disassemble a DC motor?
First of all I want to thank everyone of you contributing to this epic thread! Great info!
I have found a candidate 8 inch 48V Hitachi motor for my project. I would appreciate some general tips on disassembling a DC motor. For once i´m going to read the instructions first 
Thanks in advance!


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

There's quite a few good tips already in the previous pages of this thread.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Magnum, 

Since your questions are only peripherally related to Forklift motors, and this thread is so long already that I think your posts will be lost. May I suggest you start yourself a new "Build Tread" under EV Conversions and Builds it should get some better responses.

I think it's an interesting project and I'm sure there are others who will have enough technical expertise to offer good advice. My one thought, from a position of near complete ignorance, is that you might consider a lighter motor and some serious cooling. Motors are heavy, not so heavy that it really matters for a road vehicle, but flying one might be a different matter. AFAIK, the reason for a big motor is, in part, heat dissipation. If you can figure out a way to avoid heat buildup in a smaller motor I think it should work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have moved Magnum's post to a new thread of its own here.


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## magnum (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for the help guys!!


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Lhancock said:


> I apologize for interrupting the discussion, but I have a neighbor who has an 2009 AC Danaher motor out of a forklift.
> [snip]
> Thanks
> 
> Lance


Low rpm = Nice for a boat!! (direct drive to propshaft)
To bad You're probably far away from me (Netherlands)


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## Bigdipper (Aug 30, 2011)

Do you know anything about an Hitachi 475-02 forklift motor? I am trying to find out if it would be a good choice for my EV. (1981 Chevy Citation) I need also to make sure that it is series wound. There is one on ebay right now that I am interested in but must be sure it would work with my cougar 500 amp controller which requires a series wound motor. Would appreciate any input.

Thanks,

Bill


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

Looking for a 48v DC for an EV (ford festiva)

I wish to advance it a bit and hopefully run it at 72V DC

Is this a good motor?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clark-Raymond-forklift-motor-648753-rebuilt-tang-drive-/260848091081


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

mk4gti said:


> Looking for a 48v DC for an EV (ford festiva)
> 
> I wish to advance it a bit and hopefully run it at 72V DC
> 
> ...


 Others may chime in, but I would say it's a little small and also the female shaft is potentially a problem when it comes to a coupler for the transmission. I would also say that you can probably get to 72V without advancing. Unless you're building a short range, low speed runabout, you might consider a slightly higher voltage, say at least 96V. More volts translate to higher cost (controllers cost more, more batteries, etc.) but 96V shouldn't be much more than 72V. Means that you substitute 8V batteries for 6V for example. The 8V are, probably, just a little bigger, and might give you a slightly better range - especially since you'll be pulling less amps.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mk4gti said:


> Looking for a 48v DC for an EV (ford festiva)
> 
> I wish to advance it a bit and hopefully run it at 72V DC
> 
> ...


No, it is not a good motor to use for EV propulsion. It is too small (maybe 1 hp rated), compound wound (I think) and has a crappy output shaft (tang drive and missing the nylon insert). It was a good motor for the power steering pump on the forklift


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## EllisBenus (Sep 13, 2011)

The only person in my town (Columbia, Missouri) who has forklift motors is a used forklift dealer. When I spoke on the phone with him he said he cannot find a motor based on specifications, (150lbs, 36v, length, etc...) and instead needs to know a specific forklift and motor to find a replacement.

Do you have any suggestions?

--
Ellis Benus
Small Business Web Guru
[email protected]
http://EllisBenus.com/
(573) 557-WEB0 (9320)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EllisBenus said:


> The only person in my town (Columbia, Missouri) who has forklift motors is a used forklift dealer. When I spoke on the phone with him he said he cannot find a motor based on specifications, (150lbs, 36v, length, etc...) and instead needs to know a specific forklift and motor to find a replacement.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions?


Drop by his place some morning with coffee and doughnuts and ask to look around


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## EllisBenus (Sep 13, 2011)

major said:


> Drop by his place some morning with coffee and doughnuts and ask to look around


Not a bad idea at all, however, he doesn't keep any in stock.

I am also not finding anyone in my area (Columbia, MO) which keeps used electric forklift motors laying around. eBay has been disappointing, and Craigslist has yielded no fruit.

--
Ellis Benus
Small Business Web Guru
[email protected]
http://EllisBenus.com/
(573) 557-WEB0 (9320)


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## Bigdipper (Aug 30, 2011)

I have a catepillar 916100 11 inch forklift motor I am using for my EV conversion. There are a couple connections besides S1,S2 and A1,A2. I am wanting to find out what they are. On the brush end of the motor between the two large connection post is a small connection post. It is marked B and something like a W. I want to know what this is and on the opposite end of the motor there is a pair of wires in an insulation sleeve with a small two prong connector. These wires are probably 4 inches long. I would also like to find out what these wires ard for?

Thanks in Advance
Bill(Bigdipper)


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

BigDipper,

I would imagine that those two smaller wires with the prong is a temperature sensor.

Hook a ohm-meter to those two wires and check the reading, then try it again with a heat gun blowing on where those two wires go to inside the motor, and see if your reading changes.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

Bigdipper said:


> I have a catepillar 916100 11 inch forklift motor I am using for my EV conversion. There are a couple connections besides S1,S2 and A1,A2. I am wanting to find out what they are. On the brush end of the motor between the two large connection post is a small connection post. It is marked B and something like a W. I want to know what this is and on the opposite end of the motor there is a pair of wires in an insulation sleeve with a small two prong connector. These wires are probably 4 inches long. I would also like to find out what these wires ard for?
> 
> Thanks in Advance
> Bill(Bigdipper)


I agree with Ben. The wires are temp sensor. The BW is brush wear sensor. Should change state when its time to replace the brushes.


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## Piloot (Oct 26, 2010)

What do you think about this motor?










Diameter 20 cm (8 inch). Lenght 32 cm. It was forklift power steering pump motor. Have not taken pump away yet, dont know what shaft ending is.










Made in 1982 by Kostov. Rated 75V, what do you think what voltage it can handel? From schematic, it sees like it is parallel wound with resistor?










It has 4 sets of 2 brushes next to eachother.

So where I can use this motor? After rebuild offcource.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Piloot said:


> What do you think about this motor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello piloot.
This is pump motor and it make a bit difficult to use cause of it shaft. It has internal spline and it one way direction.


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## Taylorcarter (Oct 8, 2011)

@green You are right ...must be agreed +1


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## aredxwrestler (Oct 10, 2011)

Why not use a motor with a higher voltage? I have a 87 alfa veloce convertable that I want to be able to go 50 miles on a charge. i found a motor on ebay but it is alot stronger than 96 volts. What would the pros and cons be of getting it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Electric...aultDomain_0&hash=item2eb2c0c969#ht_649wt_698


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## aredxwrestler (Oct 10, 2011)

Would I have to use the max voltage for it or could I use something smaller? I have called around to local forklift service places and the biggest they have is 36 volts


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

aredxwrestler said:


> Why not use a motor with a higher voltage? I have a 87 alfa veloce convertable that I want to be able to go 50 miles on a charge. i found a motor on ebay but it is alot stronger than 96 volts. What would the pros and cons be of getting it?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Electric...aultDomain_0&hash=item2eb2c0c969#ht_649wt_698


Hi ared,

This is a bad choice of a motor. Even though the seller calls it a DC motor, it is not. It is AC. Plenty of reasons why not to use it. Trust me 

This thread is about using forklift motors. Most used forklift motors are DC. Much, much easier for novice DIYers to adapt to EVcar conversions. And "bigger" and voltage nameplate ratings have little to do with each other. Low voltage (nameplate rated) can be big, or small. And most times DIYers run the forklift motors at higher than nameplate rated. Review this thread a bit and you should see what is being used and how.

Regards,

major


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## blackslax (Oct 11, 2011)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> Jim, work in this context is a scientific concept and defined exactly as I say. it's not the common meaning of work. if the motor isn't turning no work is being done no matter how much energy is poured into it in the form of heat in the wires from the current. work is force times distance (in the force direction). if the distance is zero so is the work.


to quote Einstein 
“In *theory*, *theory* and *practice* are the *same*. In 
*practice*, they are not.” 

Oit is obvious that Jim has done the practice. As for dan, I think he took grade 12 physics.


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi All,
I'm a noob in search of a motor for a Geo Metro I've de-ICE'd and could use some advice. Does anyone have any thoughts on the motor in the link below?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-DC-Motor-MT475-02-48V-Forklift-Electric-cars-/360417729329?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ea921b31#ht_614wt_1344

It seems to be about the right size and I want to over volt it to 72-84volts. I'm shooting for a car that will go 20 miles with a top speed of 40mph.
Thanks,
Dan


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

I have a noob question too. The lift truck brekers I've been ringing only seem to want to talk about particular makes and models or about the load capacity of the lift trucks. In looking for an electric motor for my project, what size truck should I be looking at 4000lb, 6000lb, bigger? I'm shooting for a 144V motorway capable car and will be using Lead Acid batteries. Thanks.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> Hi All,
> I'm a noob in search of a motor for a Geo Metro I've de-ICE'd and could use some advice. Does anyone have any thoughts on the motor in the link below?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-DC-...ultDomain_0&hash=item53ea921b31#ht_614wt_1344
> 
> ...


Hi Cross,

It looks like a nice motor. The lead cables may have been cut a tad short, but that is relatively minor. At 10.5 inch diameter it may be a little large for a Metro. But if you can squeeze it in, cool 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> I have a noob question too. The lift truck brekers I've been ringing only seem to want to talk about particular makes and models or about the load capacity of the lift trucks. In looking for an electric motor for my project, what size truck should I be looking at 4000lb, 6000lb, bigger? I'm shooting for a 144V motorway capable car and will be using Lead Acid batteries. Thanks.


See the eBay listing in Crossdan's post. Now don't bid against the fellow


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

major said:


> See the eBay listing in Crossdan's post. Now don't bid against the fellow


 
4000lb, 48V, should be a good place to start talking with the breakers then?

I'll try not to bid against him, but sometimes I get the ebay bug and can't not bid... ;0)


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Another one to look at a little closer is 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36v-DC-Electric-Motor-new-/320804117153?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab16a5aa1#ht_500wt_1131

I can't tell much about what the inside looks like but a motor this size would be a minimal requirement for a small Metro.

Here's another that might turn out to be useful for a small conversion.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-General-Electric-3-25HP-DC-Motor-5BC49JB352B-/360375769745?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e811da91#ht_521wt_880

This looks like from an old pallet jack or very small lift truck:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Truc-12AL-4021-Forklift-Drive-Motor-12-Volt-DC-/330467272542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf162675e#ht_918wt_1114

Here's a GE 7" Shunt motor:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-Motor-DC-Motor-1-3-HP-1725-RPM-2-Shaft-Model-D167-/140591520638?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20bbe85b7e#ht_2233wt_880

Another small GE that I'm not too sure about:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-180V-180-VOLT-DC-MOTOR-143SC006B002-HP-2-RPM-2500-2750-NEW-/230686777497?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b600e099#ht_2325wt_1165

This would be a really good Clark motor if you could figure out how to use the female shaft:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2334066-Clark-Forklift-Motor-DC-/350487162362?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519aa9adfa#ht_500wt_1131

This you would absolutely use for a bigger conversion and small truck.  I have 4 of these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WarP-9-EV-Car-Motor-32-3-HP-measured-72-Volts-DC-single-ended-shaft-New-/170718581980?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item27bf9ed4dc#ht_2075wt_1114

But don't take these recommendations as definite. Have a few other folks on here take a look and comment.

Also check Surplus Center. They occasionally have a few gems, or motors that "will work". But they don't currently have anything listed from what I can see.

Mike


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> See the eBay listing in Crossdan's post. Now don't bid against the fellow


I have a feeling that motor may be sepex, which might be a good choice for a low-voltage metro with a regen controller.

Might not be such a good choice at 144V.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

green caveman said:


> I have a feeling that motor may be sepex,......


Hi green,

From the field lead size I'd say series, but to be sure you could ask the seller for field resistance.

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> 4000lb, 48V, should be a good place to start talking with the breakers then?


Yeah, pretty common size truck....3 or 4000 lb capacity. Counterbalance (or sitdown rider) trucks might be likely to have single motor drive like this opposed to narrow aisle or reach trucks. Often they are same motor for 36/48 volt battery options. Not sure where you're at. USA uses 36/48V a lot, Europe more of the 72V, which would work for you.


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

major said:


> Yeah, pretty common size truck....3 or 4000 lb capacity. Counterbalance (or sitdown rider) trucks might be likely to have single motor drive like this opposed to narrow aisle or reach trucks. Often they are same motor for 36/48 volt battery options. Not sure where you're at. USA uses 36/48V a lot, Europe more of the 72V, which would work for you.


I'm in the US. Seattle specifically...

I'll start ringing up the breakers again this afternoon and see who has what...


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the info. Sounds like I can get away with using a smaller motor in the Geo. But are there any problems with using a larger one assuming I can make it fit?
I found a couple 36 volt Crown drive motors (about 9" dia) at a local junk yard. Can I run it with 84 volts and get 40 mph?

Dan


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Crossdan said:


> Thanks everyone for the info. Sounds like I can get away with using a smaller motor in the Geo. But are there any problems with using a larger one assuming I can make it fit?


The only disadvantage is the extra weight.



Crossdan said:


> I found a couple 36 volt Crown drive motors (about 9" dia) at a local junk yard. Can I run it with 84 volts and get 40 mph?


I would think performance-wise those should work. Best thing is to post pictures.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> Another one to look at a little closer is ....
> 
> Mike


I'd think except for the warp and Clark they are all either too small, have too low an insulation rating, and/or are enclosed with no option for cooling.


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

green caveman said:


> The only disadvantage is the extra weight.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think performance-wise those should work. Best thing is to post pictures.


Hi Green,
The ones I found are identical to this ebay listing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Yale-Forklift-Right-Drive-Motor-Crown-9A670-/380370285883?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588fd5f53b#ht_2198wt_1110

Dan


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Crossdan said:


> The ones I found are identical to this ebay listing.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Yale-F...ltDomain_0&hash=item588fd5f53b#ht_2198wt_1110


The listing says it's 75lbs. If so, I would say it's a little light for the Metro. However, if it really is 9" or so, then I would say the 75lbs is, perhaps, a little low.

As far as I understand it, it's heat that kills the motor. Given that you're building a small, slow, round-town, car, and so (probably) won't be running the motor at high power for long periods, the motor might work for you. May depend on the price of the motor, the real weight, and you may want to consider some active cooling (12V fan).

What do you plan for batteries? Lead will be ~800lbs heavier, which might make a difference as to whether this motor will work especially if you live in hilly terrain. We pull 20kW ([email protected] from ~1000lbs of floodies) on hills in the little van, which has about the same curb weight as the metro. For a 20 mile range, the lithiums will not be _that_ much more expensive (keep watching eBay - there are some 100Ah currently listed for $100 each, so $2600 for 84V) as long as you don't trash them, they're much lower cost in the long run - many more cycles.

Others may have different, probably better, opinions on the motor. If you get photos of the actual motor, especially the area in by the brushes, but any photos you can, then there are folks here qualified to judge the condition of the motor, so that's still worth doing.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> Hi Green,
> The ones I found are identical to this ebay listing.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Yale-F...ltDomain_0&hash=item588fd5f53b#ht_2198wt_1110


Yeah, it is a 6.6 inch motor. And probably not your best choice.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Yeah, it is a 6.6 inch motor. And probably not your best choice.





Crossdan said:


> I found a couple 36 volt Crown drive motors (about 9" dia) at a local junk yard.


Is this the old rubber-tape measure trick? I remember hacking away a wall to get a refrigerator to fit because of that! (After carrying it up three floors, it was easier to fix the wall than carry it back down and another one up).


----------



## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm pretty sure my measurement is off. I didn't have a tape and it would appear my eyeballs need a re-calibration.
Dan


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

TAILSHAFTS!

I noticed on photos of motors linked to in a couple of previous posts had drum brakes on the back of the motors.

That CAN be a really useful thing.

My Geo Metro is running with a 10" diameter series-wound motor that I got from a full-size sit-down Nissan electric forklift. The motor had a tail-shaft with a drum brake on it.

The tail-shaft was the same size/diameter/splines as the driveshaft. Because of that, I was able to remove the drum brake and use the female connection in there (with the rest of the brake parts stripped away) as the basis for the coupler on the drive end.

Basically, I took a part off the back of the motor and put it on the front of the motor to connect it to the transmission.

In the end, I had to cut off the tail-shaft to make the motor fit in the car, but parts from the brake were useful in the driveline.

SO, if you buy a used forklift motor, which still has brake components, take the brake off and see what there is for the tail-shaft. You may be able to make use of it for the drive-end. If the tail-shaft is different than the drive-shaft, you might still be able to make use of that end to drive power steering, an air conditioning compressor, or be a good place to mount a tachometer pickup.



PS - Geo Metros WILL fit a 10.5" motor - barely. Mine is a 1996 (second generation body style) which originally had the 3-cyclinder engine (that effects where the transmission is mounted relative to the centerline of the car.) A 10.5" motor will just clear the passenger-side drive-shaft coming out of the transaxle on this front-wheel drive car. I also measured it as being 15" from the transmission bell-housing to the passenger-side wall of the engine compartment. The body of the motor, plus that thickness of adapter plate and/or spacer needs to be a total of 15" or less. On mine, I used a thick adapter plate (two pieces of 1/2" aluminum for 1" thickness total) and the body of the motor is 14". The drive-shaft length is not counted, because that is inside the adapter plate and transmission bell-housing. I did have to cut off the tailshaft (as it would have hit the tire on left-hand turns!)


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks Ben! I appreciate all the information, i didn't even think to check the max diameter Motor I could use. I have a 1994 geo so I think I'll put the transaxle back in temporarily and take some measurements. 

The motor with the brake definitely has a male spline for the brake but I think I'll keep looking for a larger motor. I was lifting the one i found without any trouble so I'm sure it wasn't more then the 75 lbs listed in the eBay ad.

Dan


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## Rideman (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi i am new to this forum. You talked about fork lift motors. How about a motor from a cushman Zev. I have one and was giong to put it in a vw bug. Do you think it will work. The motor is a GE. 10hp. 61.7 Volt Mode # 5bt1344b181 speed 2800rpm. Any help would be great. Thanks Rick


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Rideman said:


> Hi i am new to this forum. You talked about fork lift motors. How about a motor from a cushman Zev. I have one and was giong to put it in a vw bug. Do you think it will work. The motor is a GE. 10hp. 61.7 Volt Mode # 5bt1344b181 speed 2800rpm. Any help would be great. Thanks Rick


Hi Ride,

That is probably a 6.6 inch motor. 10 hp is a lot from that size motor, but maybe. Even with new D&D long stack fan cooled 6.6 inch motors Bug converters have been disappointed. So it might work if you can tolerate slow acceleration and low top speed. Compare the weight and performance of the Cushman to the VW. I wouldn't expect more from the motor than what it was doing in the Cushman. 

Regards,

major


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

With a VW Bug you will want a motor weighing at least 100 lb. My little Buggy runs a 7.2 inch Prestolite and can't hardly get it warm. I also used a Prestolite MTC motor in a Rabbit Pickup full of flooded lead. Pushing a 3300 lb. EV around at freeway speeds was about the limit for a 105 pound motor. I had no issues using an 8 inch Advanced DC motor in a '66 Datsun at about 2100 lb. 

Since you have a Bug I recommend NetGain Impulse 9 motor because it fits without cutting the rear apron. A lot of suitable motors are a bit to long and you have to cut the apron to install them.


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## philby (Dec 29, 2011)

Afternoon all

I have read through most of this thread with great intrest

and will shortly be opening a design/build thresd with more of what i plan to attempt

in the mean time i am located in the UK
and wondered if anyone can tell me anything about either of these 2 FLT/s

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180784212...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1361

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260924761...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1361

i am thinking a donor somethign like a suzuki sj kerb weight about 870Kg


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The first one looks like it's in good condition and would probably sell for more than you want to pay for just a motor. No idea what components the second one might have.


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## philby (Dec 29, 2011)

ill see what the end of the auctions brings


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## dawnpatrol (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Philby....did you get either of them?


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## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

Oh oh... not sure if this is the proper place for this, but after driving around happily for 2 years with my ev running on a hyster forklift motor it suddenly stopped, only making slow 1/4 rotations with shocks. The brushes are still fine and I fear to have burned a coil. What would be the best steps to go from here with problem determination?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

etlaare said:


> Oh oh... not sure if this is the proper place for this, but after driving around happily for 2 years with my ev running on a hyster forklift motor it suddenly stopped, only making slow 1/4 rotations with shocks. The brushes are still fine and I fear to have burned a coil. What would be the best steps to go from here with problem determination?


I hope this doesn't conflict with the businesses of any of the posters, but this is my experience.

Can't help you with a diagnosis, but if it turns out you need an armature rewound, you may want to contactInternational Winding Inc. http://www.iwico.com/. We don't yet have the motor in a car yet, but the work looks good the rewind was well priced (compared to others) and the motor runs on the bench.


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## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

green caveman said:


> I hope this doesn't conflict with the businesses of any of the posters, but this is my experience.
> .


I am in Europe  but thanks for your reply anyway.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

etlaare said:


> I am in Europe  but thanks for your reply anyway.


Sorry, should have noticed the location. The cost of shipping the 40kg/90lb armature within the US was about half the cost of the rewind, so it might be a little impractical to ship it from the Netherlands!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etlaare said:


> Oh oh... not sure if this is the proper place for this, but after driving around happily for 2 years with my ev running on a hyster forklift motor it suddenly stopped, only making slow 1/4 rotations with shocks. The brushes are still fine and I fear to have burned a coil. What would be the best steps to go from here with problem determination?


Hi et,

Details on your build would be helpful. Have a build thread or EValbum page?

For the motor, did smoke come out? Smell bad? Black ashes falling out?

If no, no, and no, then you can check the motor separately. First, is it mechanically free to spin? As in neutral or with the drive wheels jacked up? If yes, then disconnect the controller and try it with a 12V battery direct to the motor with jumper cables. Just touch the motor terminals with the clips. It will spark, but 12V is o.k. Have the wheels up or in neutral with wheels chocked. Does the motor spin? If no, you likely have a motor problem. If yes, then look elsewhere for a controller problem or something.

Photos along the way will help.

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi et,
> 
> Details on your build would be helpful. Have a build thread or EValbum page?
> 
> major


This is the build thread, Major.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38674

I hope your motor is repairable, Etlaare.


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## etlaare (Aug 25, 2009)

major said:


> Hi et,
> 
> Details on your build would be helpful. Have a build thread or EValbum page?
> 
> ...


Thank You for Your reply Major


I had already tried with a 12v battery with the same result, a quarter turn then it stops about every second.
It can run freely by hand (it has a cooler fan I can reach and push).

and yes a no no no on yoru questions.

I did the preparations to remove the motor and the gearbox this weekend, but if there could be another test before that it would be great. 

Thank you woodsmith for your kind reply.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Here I am, another newbie with a question that I hope you guys will help me with. I was given an ADC motor from a Clark reach truck. It is 6.7x13.5". It's dual brushed and rated at 36volts. It looks very similar to an L91-4003, except a little shorter and weighs 68lbs. The comm. has been turned 2 or 3 times and the motor was changed out because it was low on torque after the last rebuild and getting hot under heavy use. Our electric forklift tech says that the undersized comm. effectively advances the brush timing a little and that was causing the problem. Does that seem reasonable? I figured if I was going to overvolt the motor anyway, it might not be a problem. Is that right or wrong? I know 8" and 100lb. is supposed to be the magic minimum number for a car, but... I am toying with the idea of buying a little Fiat 850 Spider that's for sale here. It's only a 1600lb car to start with and it's got really high gearing (45mph in fourth would be 3200rpm). Do you think this motor might still work or should I forget it? 45mph and a 20mile range would probably be plenty.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> Here I am, another newbie with a question that I hope you guys will help me with. I was given an ADC motor from a Clark reach truck. It is 6.7x13.5". It's dual brushed and rated at 36volts. It looks very similar to an L91-4003, except a little shorter and weighs 68lbs. The comm. has been turned 2 or 3 times and the motor was changed out because it was low on torque after the last rebuild and getting hot under heavy use. Our electric forklift tech says that the undersized comm. effectively advances the brush timing a little and that was causing the problem. Does that seem reasonable? I figured if I was going to overvolt the motor anyway, it might not be a problem. Is that right or wrong? I know 8" and 100lb. is supposed to be the magic minimum number for a car, but... I am toying with the idea of buying a little Fiat 850 Spider that's for sale here. It's only a 1600lb car to start with and it's got really high gearing (45mph in fourth would be 3200rpm). Do you think this motor might still work or should I forget it? 45mph and a 20mile range would probably be plenty.


Hi pud,

Ehhh, not so sure about his theory. May be some truth to it, especially if the brushes are angled off radial, but I think ADC were straight radial. Smaller diameter comm would cause more bar span from the brush. But more importantly, less spring pressure. But all in all, comm turning should just take off a skin cut like .015 to .02 inch. Unless it was terribly grooved or burnt. So less torque resulting from comm turning.....I doubt it. 

But it sounds like this baby has been abused, serviced and abused, several times. I'd not spend hundreds of hours and 1000's of dollars building an EV around it. Or if you decide to, leave plenty of room to replace with a larger motor. 

Regards,

major


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. I had a feeling that someone would say that and your probably right. It had 10-12000hours of hard use. When I took it, I was thinking it might still be okay for a motorcycle or some other light vehicle. Problem is, my spouse is really unfavorable to the motorcycle idea. It's not very practical for me either, but I have most of what I would need for that project though. I'll keep looking, for now.


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## dp1969 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey guys, It happened im fed up with oil companies and up and down fuel cost so im going all in and building an ev. I started my questioning on yawnhu answer and received a not so freindly reception(they are smart and im stupid lol ) and just reading your suggestions on fork lift motors has helped so much thanks guys! I am new to chat forums so bare with me but i will share all i encounter


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

you can learn a lot by watching evtv.me
they have an archive of past shows. welcome to the winning side : )

also check out the forkenswift videos on youtube


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## dp1969 (Feb 13, 2012)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> you can learn a lot by watching evtv.me
> they have an archive of past shows. welcome to the winning side : )
> 
> also check out the forkenswift videos on youtube


 Thanks i will!


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## dp1969 (Feb 13, 2012)

ok i think i found donor forklift,i dont have pics but is 86 model mercury and has 4000 lift cap, would that drive motor or lift motor be enough to move a fiero?


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

typically yes


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## dp1969 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ty sir will have pics to send soon,i dig this stuff!


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

dp1969 said:


> Ty sir will have pics to send soon,i dig this stuff!


 Check back for what to pictures are the most useful. Mainly it seems to be get as many good quality pictures of as much of the interior as you possibly can. Also, size seems to matter. Probably looking for a motor with a male shaft that is at least 9" diameter and 10" or more long around or above 200lbs.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

90kg (200lbs) is too much for a reasonable car.
netgain and adc motors typically range from 40 to 70kg.
I made this list a while back http://www.zev.dk/misc/motorchart.htm


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## jim26.2 (Feb 18, 2012)

Hi
I'm new to this forum. I hope to do a conversion on a small pickup like ford ranger or chevy s10. I want to do this on budget so I thought using a forklift motor would be a savings. However I am concerned that the end results might be disappointing and that a new off the shelf advanced dc motor may be better in the long run.
-What kind of performance should I expect by using a forklift motor for a small pickup? 
-If a forklift motor is okay for a pickup, what size, spec, make, etc. should I be looking for?
Thanks


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

jim, forklift is the same tech. the issue is more of getting the right size and voltage such that it's a decent match with controller and battery.
and if you have a 120V battery you don't use a 120V rated motor from a forklift. for cars we overpower them somewhat, we use them for peak power whereas industrially like forklifts they are often rated for docile continuous operation.
you might want to pick a motor that's rated for 48V for a 100+V pack. maybe even 24. I don't have too much experience with that. maybe check for examples on evalbum.

also there are different types of DC motors. typical favorite is the 'series wound'. there are also sepex which requires a sepex controller. watch for that. it wont work with a normal control. a sepex might require both a 48V supply and a 12V low power exciter of the static coils. there is also compound wound type. it's a mess  and there is permanent magnet which you can also use but not many of those in forklifts I think.
power rating around 7-10kW or you can go by weight, maybe 40 to 70kg. 40 is smallish, more than 70 might be too much.
thereabout


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi,
I'm also looking to use a forklift motor and the one I found is 14" long, 11.5" dia and the owner estimates weight at 100 lbs. I'll need to do some modifications to fit it to my Geo Metro transaxle but I think it will work. As I go thru some of the threads here, several people have said to post pictures. Attached is one of the commutator and brushes. Can anyone tell anything good or bad about the motor from this picture?
Thanks.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> Hi,
> I'm also looking to use a forklift motor and the one I found is 14" long, 11.5" dia and the owner estimates weight at 100 lbs. I'll need to do some modifications to fit it to my Geo Metro transaxle but I think it will work. As I go thru some of the threads here, several people have said to post pictures. Attached is one of the commutator and brushes. Can anyone tell anything good or bad about the motor from this picture?
> Thanks.


Hi Cross,

The brush rigging and commutator look very nice. 2 brushes per holder is good. A GE 11" diameter motor for Clark is also a good sign. 100 lbs? I'll bet closer to double that. Likely it is a traction motor. Hopefully series wound. Worth pursuing 

major


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

that might be quite a bit heavier than 100lbs : ) let us know when you get it and how much you paid for it.
I'm guessing it can be more powerful than your gearbox can handle.
looks like it's a single supply motor so it will work with normal DC controller


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> I'm guessing it can be more powerful than your gearbox can handle.


And a controller could certainly take care of that. 



Dan Frederiksen said:


> looks like it's a single supply motor so it will work with normal DC controller


What are you talking about?


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

a sepex motor has two supplies. for instance a high power 48V supply and a 12V low power supply. not all motors are appropriate type. a sepex motor need a sepex controller or hacking the low power supply with a manual switch


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> a sepex motor has two supplies. for instance a high power 48V supply and a 12V low power supply. not all motors are appropriate type. a sepex motor need a sepex controller or hacking the low power supply with a manual switch


Jim Husted started this thread and asked you not to post on it. Jim hasn't been around for a while but I am sure he would not approve of you now. Please go away.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

first of all you're a massive douche for saying so. 
second, if Husted has such a disposition it's his problem.


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi major,
Thanks for the info. Yeah, I'm sure it's more then 100 lbs. It didn't seem right compared to the weights other motor sizes. I guess the guys eyeballs aren't as calibrated as they could be.
The seller says he controls it with an EV100 SCR controller. I believe those are for series wound motor, right?
Dan 
Dan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> The seller says he controls it with an EV100 SCR controller. I believe those are for series wound motor, right?


Yes, that's right.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

major said:


> The brush rigging and commutator look very nice. 2 brushes per holder is good.


I think it's can be one large brush.
I had in hand a similar motor a day. It weight more than 200 lbs for sure!


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## terryg (Jan 7, 2011)

hi all
I got my motor and controller today its lansing bagnall 72v fork lift.

pump motor 67v.
120amp.
6.4kw.
RPM 3200
4X2 =8 brushed
8"1/4 x 12"3/4
50KG ?

is it big enough ?

it going in a classic mini 650KG on GM box run 96v ?
















terry


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

the motor should be plenty big enough for a mini but I'm not quite sure if 96v will adequately motivate that motor.
if it's lazy will you be able to go to higher voltage later?
what controller will you be using?


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## terryg (Jan 7, 2011)

lansing hytron v controller 72v to 80v is the fork lift but iv got to get it working ? only £30 lol and motor £62


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## terryg (Jan 7, 2011)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> the motor should be plenty big enough for a mini but I'm not quite sure if 96v will adequately motivate that motor.
> if it's lazy will you be able to go to higher voltage later?
> what controller will you be using?


how much voltage ?


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

terryg said:


> lansing hytron v controller 72v to 80v is the fork lift but iv got to get it working ? only £30 lol and motor £62


I wouldn't even spend time on that controller, you might be able to use some contacters (although the voltage might not be good). Also salvage cables, might come to use.

I dissembled a 48V truck and have used all contacters, dc-dc converter and lots of cables.

Trick: dirty cables in an (old) washing machine together with some old rags makes them shiny and new 









(needs some tidying up)


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

terry, it's hard to say with these series wound because they don't have a simple motor constant as such. I'm somewhat unsure of the theory but I think you might have ok power with 96V and 400A, say around 40HP peak but if I understand the theory correctly you will have that peak at a relatively low rpm with that motor, say 2000rpm which means it will be torque heavy instead of relying more on the rpm to get the power. that means at some motorway speed that requires the full 40HP you will load the motor with 400A constantly which it might not want to do for long.
but I'm hunching that if you can live with moderate motorway speeds like 100km/h and you watch that the current isn't constantly 400 then I think 96V can work overall.
for city acceleration 400A should be quite peppy. I think : )

120V might be better for it or even 144V. or 200 for that matter if you want it to be powerful. it is a relatively high voltage motor from what I can tell but 96V can probably work

and another thing, because the power is at low rpm, the mini might not have a gear high enough to go 100km/h at 2000rpm so it will probably have a natural top speed around 100 because there isn't a gear high enough to strain it to give you the peak power at high speed. in other words you wont be able to overload it on the motorway but you wont be able to go fast either. should still have peppy accel at lower speed though.
you might end up driving in the top gear all the time because of the low rpm profile you get from 96V with that motor. I can't be sure.

one more thing, series wound motors can overspeed if they have no load so be careful not to floor it while in neutral or on a test bench. they can spin themselves to death from what I hear. rule of thumb is don't exceed 6000rpm


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

terryg said:


> how much voltage ?


Hi terryg,

If we could make Dan Fredrekinsen go away, I'd be glad to give you some advice. Dan does not know what he's talking about. He just repeats words and phrases he has read previously on EV forums. Do not take him seriously. I speculate he has once again appeared on this board after being banned from yet another forum elsewhere.

major


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

major, rather than your idiotic posing, why don't you try to help him and see if you can do better than I. since you know so much better than me that should be easy


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> ....why don't you try to help him...


Like I said, I would but I cannot tolerate you.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

tell you what, if you can help him better and show that what I said was substantially wrong I wont speak again. if you can't do that I'd ask you to be silent instead.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tellyouwhatdanifyoucanlearntousesomepropperpunctuationandthecapskeyoccasionallyithinkwewouldallbebetteroff

Since Major knows a hell of a lot more than you if you really want to help people you should probably play the martyr and bow out of this thread. It should fit will with your Jesus complex.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> tell you what, if you can help him better and show that what I said was substantially wrong I wont speak again. if you can't do that I'd ask you to be silent instead.


Best offer I had all day.



Dan Frederiksen said:


> 120V might be better for it or even 144V. or 200 for that matter if you want it to be powerful.


You recommend 200 volts. The motor is rated at 67V and 3200RPM. So at or below rated current, at 200V, the motor RPM would be over 9500. That assumes it could hold together at that high speed.

Good bye.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

major putz, can I call you major putz?, a series wound motor can overspeed on 48V. something you would know if you knew half of what I do. and you can go back and read that I warned about overspeeding.
john wayland runs forklift motors above 300V

you want to try again or just go away?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dan you are derailing this thread, you need to unsubscribe before you are banned from the forum.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> major putz, can I call you major putz?, a series wound motor can overspeed on 48V. something you would know if you knew half of what I do. and you can go back and read that I warned about overspeeding.
> john wayland runs forklift motors above 300V
> 
> you want to try again or just go away?


"Major putz?" I think that's far enough.



> The following are prohibited on DIY Electric Car forums:
> 
> 1) Flaming, hate speech, racial slurs or otherwise obviously offensive or trolling remarks.
> 2) Links posted to products for sale outside of the marketplace forums
> ...


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/faq.php

Dan, I'm going to suggest you take a step back and allow the thread to continue. If you need more time to think about why your remarks are not appropriate, I'll be happy to give you a vacation.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

david85 said:


> ........I think that's far enough......


Thank you david85. I hate to see like the best thread ever derailed. 288,182 views, 166 pages and 1658 posts of great DIY info.

Hopefully onward, on topic.

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

terryg said:


> hi all
> I got my motor and controller today its lansing bagnall 72v fork lift.
> 
> pump motor 67v.
> ...


Hi terry,

This motor would be big enough, but it may not be able to provide performance. It may not be capable of sustained power enough for moderate to fast vehicle speed for very long without overheating. I see some other issues.

It is a pump motor. Probably unidirectional. Is it the correct direction for you? It also appears to have the usual internal spline output instead of a shaft making it difficult to couple to the driveline. It is not ventilated at the drive end and may have been totally enclosed on the lift truck. Hence the 6.4 kW 15 minute rating. This would be typical for lift pump motors, but traction motors are normally rated for one hour duty. A one hour rating for this motor may be as low as 2 or 3 kW. Most forklift motors used for EVcars have ventilation at both ends and an internal fan. It would be difficult to alter this machine for suitable ventilation for the EVcar. It is also class F. Most are class H, 25ºC higher insulation rating.

Series wound motors are used with modern PWM controllers. It is not stated if this is series wound. It may be compound wound. It appears to have 3 power terminals, which is strange. It could be a tapped field series wound motor (which would work for you).

Electrically speaking it probably would work well at 96 volts and with a 400 or 500 amp current limit. It will not do well for prolonged periods above 200 amps and probably need average current down below 100 amps. Best to use with a multi-speed transmission and use an overspeed protection cutout circuit or at minimum a tach to keep RPM under 5000. I see it as unusable above 100 volts. You can always have a higher voltage battery if your controller can be set to a maximum motor voltage.

It could work in a little Mini, but I think you'll end up with a low performance car which may not be capable of desired speeds or duration of use without motor heating trouble.

Regards,

major


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

david, read back and realize I am the righteous one and jrp3 and major attacked me without any reason whatsoever. they should be banned, not me. I'm the one who was really helpful. they didn't help at all.
if you want to be an administrator, be a good one


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## terryg (Jan 7, 2011)

It could work in a little Mini, but I think you'll end up with a low performance car which may not be capable of desired speeds or duration of use without motor heating trouble.



thank you major for your good information.
so if i can keep it cool ? modify it! fans ,holes etc . or get a new motor ?

terry


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> david, read back and realize I am the righteous one and jrp3 and major attacked me without any reason whatsoever. they should be banned, not me. I'm the one who was really helpful. they didn't help at all.
> if you want to be an administrator, be a good one


Enjoy you're vacation, Dan.

*Sorry about the thread disruption, guys. If he comes back after 2 weeks and starts trouble again, just let us know and we can make it a permanent ban. *


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

zsnemeth said:


> This is looks like some sort of in wheel forklift motor, about 10" diameterand 14 inches long, 36V and has C.E.V. name on it. That's all i could get from the seller.
> Doesn't look promising.
> Is it useful?


Hi Z,

Yeah, not promising. Not sure about this particular one but looks similar to some US trucks using K H Porter 8 pole short stack motors with gear heads for a wheel motor. It would be difficult to adapt such a motor for an EVcar. I think I'd pass on it unless you have an application for 3 or 4 kW slim motor. And it is likely pretty heavy for its power rating.

Cheers,

major


----------



## DIT (Mar 15, 2012)

Hi,

First post here but just looking for some advice on a motor I got for our final year college project.

Would this motor power a Mitisubishi Colt that is completly stripped down and weighing about 700kg.

Thanks for your help


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIT said:


> Would this motor power a Mitisubishi Colt that is completly stripped down and weighing about 700kg.


Yes, but at what speed  Not very fast. Taking it at nameplate value, it is 0,55kW at 48V, 17A. You can overload electric motors for a short time maybe 3X and raise the voltage increasing RPM and get maybe another 2 to 3 factor which puts you into the 3 to 4 kW range for very short duration unless you actively cool it. So, do you want a car with equivalent performance to that with a 5 hp engine? If you try hard you may come out with an EV which could outrun a golf cart.

Depends on your performance goals,

major


----------



## DIT (Mar 15, 2012)

Sorry forgot to say that the car will just be used to be driven around the college parking lot and small distances(.5 of a mile at a time).


----------



## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

major, why do you say that terry's motor is unusable over 100V? that is most certainly wrong. if your thinking is that it can overspeed then that's always a risk with series wound motors in EVs. that's true for all of them. that doesn't make them unusable. it just means you should avoid too high rpm.

you simply don't know what you are talking about.

indeed it is the case that it needs over 100V to reach its full potential in an EV.
a permanent magnet motor has a firm correlation between max rpm and voltage. series wound motors do not.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> major, why do you say that terry's motor is unusable over 100V?


Now that we don't have to worry about Dan, I will address this for others who may have wondered.

If you look back over the previous several pages, you'll find that this particular motor has a nameplate rating of 67V and 3200RPM (15 minute). We speculate it is series wound. Regardless, at the rated load, we can proportion the RPM by the ratio of applied voltage. So at 100V, RPM = 4776. This is about as fast as I would recommend; in fact, too fast, I feel for reasonable operating motor speed. Add to that, at any load less than rated, the motor RPM will increase. At current limit (say 400 or 500A), motor RPM would be less than 4776 at 100V applied, but likely still above 4000RPM which would cause commutation arcing. While that might be tolerable for a drag racer, I wouldn't recommend it for the normal EVcar.

I did mention to terryg that the motor could be used with higher voltage battery if the controller could be set to limit the voltage applied to the motor. But I don't see an overall benefit of doing that.

Regards,

major


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi major
I just start to think I'm getting a grasp on the workings of these motors, then find my mental model is built on shaky ground. Can you help me understand your reasoning?  I can see that this particular motor is not very suitable with its low 15-minute current rating, but I'm not sure I follow the voltage limit reasoning. I got the impression that the nameplate rating was just one datum point, often chosen for the benefit of the intended customer. The current limit is obviously fixed by the efficiency of the motor and its ability to dissipate heat. But aren't most series motors run well beyond what would originally have been their nameplate voltage?

I can see that raising the voltage considerably or reducing the load/current outside the nameplate values will cause the motor to speed up, and that this can result in excessive arcing or the commutator flying apart. But in a decent conversion the upper rpm should be limited by gearing or the controller, or by using a separate rpm limiter. Is it just that this motor looks particularly weak, or do you feel that many of us are pushing motors too far outside their safe working envelope? In my case I'm thinking of running a 36V/2500 rpm rated Prestolite motor at up to 120V, though I have advanced the timing several degrees to try to counter arcing.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Malc,

I'll give it a try 



MalcolmB said:


> I can see that this particular motor is not very suitable with its low 15-minute current rating,..


Well, it depends on the intended application. It was rated at 15 minutes because it was designed for a pump drive and a 15 minute rating was considered more of a typical load for that application. It does not imply that this motor cannot be run longer at a lower load. In fact many (or some) motor performance graphs include a time vs load curve indicating how long the motor can be run at a particular load. This motor, as I mentioned in post #1661 may carry a 2 or 3 kW rating for one hour. Now that may be suitable for a small, or low speed car, or MC.



MalcolmB said:


> But aren't most series motors run well beyond what would originally have been their nameplate voltage?


No. I'd say most motors are used in the intended application reflected by the nameplate. It is us idiots doing EV conversions who choose to use motors in non-intended applications with operating parameters disregarding nameplates.



MalcolmB said:


> I can see that raising the voltage considerably or reducing the load/current outside the nameplate values will cause the motor to speed up, and that this can result in excessive arcing or the commutator flying apart. But in a decent conversion the upper rpm should be limited by gearing or the controller, or by using a separate rpm limiter.


I don't follow you about gearing, but regarding the controller and RPM limiter.....That reduces voltage to the motor. Exactly what I was talking about. 100V to that motor will result in excessive RPM at reasonable loads. You can have a higher voltage battery, but you must keep the motor voltage lower. And the RPM limiter is just a circuit which uses the motor controller to limit the motor voltage.



MalcolmB said:


> Is it just that this motor looks particularly weak, or do you feel that many of us are pushing motors too far outside their safe working envelope? In my case I'm thinking of running a 36V/2500 rpm rated Prestolite motor at up to 120V, though I have advanced the timing several degrees to try to counter arcing.


That motor looked just fine for what it is. I covered some aspects which might present some difficulty for him. As far as your motor, I think that 36V/2500 RPM point would be about the rating (1 hr) at around 200A. If you apply 120V volts to the motor with a 200 amp load, it will attempt to run at 8300 RPM. 

Regards,

major


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

major said:


> It is us idiots doing EV conversions who choose to use motors in non-intended applications with operating parameters disregarding nameplates.
> major


Yes, I meant "most series motors used by us idiots" 



major said:


> I don't follow you about gearing


I was thinking of a fixed gear conversion where the motor rpm is limited by by the achievable top speed.



major said:


> You can have a higher voltage battery, but you must keep the motor voltage lower. And the RPM limiter is just a circuit which uses the motor controller to limit the motor voltage.


Doh, newbie mistake, that's where I was tripping up, thinking you were talking about pack voltage rather than motor voltage.

Thanks for taking the time!

Malcolm


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## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi all,
I've had a few postings asking about some motors I found, thanks again to all who relied. Unfortunately they all fell through so now I'm thinking about buying an ADC K91-4003. I want to put it in a Geo metro with a 96 volt lead-acid battery pack. The finished weight with one passenger will be about 2200 lbs. Does anyone have any thoughts on using this motor, is it too small for this application?
Dan


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## Rok Kocevar (Jul 4, 2010)

Hello everyone

I have a bit of an egocentric issue i need your help with. Major?

I am starting a conversion of Ford Ka ( mark 1, curb weight: 800kg ) to electric. And possibly i want to make this http://www.evalbum.com/416.html ( and get it street legal ).

So i need 2 motors, which i have already found from a guy living near me. The question is are they any good? And for what aplication. Any info will be greatly apreciated. 

Motor 1:

Is a main drive motor for a 24v forklift ( driver sitting down sideways ). Ford Ka contestant?

24v / 150A / 2,5KW / 1500 RPM

Diameter : 7,2'' Lenght: 16'' Weight: about 100 pounds Insulation: F



Motor 2:

Is a 2 terminal pump motor. Has a fan on the back. I am thinkig trike for this one?

24v / 220A / 5KW / 2600RPM

Diameter: 7,2'' Lenght: 16'' Weight: 80 pounds insulation: E

Since it only has two terminals i have to check spin direction since it probalby cant be reversed if it goes in the wrong direction.


I would like to power these motors from 48-80V and as i understand voltage up/ RPM up, voltage up/KW up. But what hapens to the current its quite high on 24v, does it drop with the increase in voltage?

Thanks guys!

Rok


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Rok Kocevar said:


> I would like to power these motors from 48-80V and as i understand voltage up/ RPM up, voltage up/KW up. But what hapens to the current its quite high on 24v, does it drop with the increase in voltage?


Hi Rok,

The current the motor draws is dependent on the load. Load is the torque on the shaft opposing rotation. The more load, the more motor current. The torque curve or motor characteristic graph depicts this. But too bad , you can't get that info for used fork motors. So you're stuck with a single torque/Amp point from the nameplate.

You're correct that increased motor voltage increases RPM for a given load (at a certain current or torque). And assuming you stay at that torque or current value, increased voltage (and RPM) gives you more power. 

But if you look at two equal power points, one being higher voltage, then it would have lower current and therefore lower torque. But beware; when you reduce motor torque the RPM will increase even further than the RPM increase expected from the increased voltage.

So for example on your 24V, 5kW, 2600RPM motor, if you want to run at 48V, 5kW, your RPM would be well in excess of 5200.

Regards,

major


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## Rok Kocevar (Jul 4, 2010)

thank you for the reply Major

So i should be ok as long as i dont rev the motor without any load on it?

Any other comment about the motor choise? Are they a good choise?

I also found one 36v/ 2,5kw.

Thanks


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## markkmcanada (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi 
Can you guys take a look at my post and see if anyone can tell me some info on my motor. would it run a small car or 1/4 ton truck?? 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/can-anyone-tell-me-motor-71611.html 

Also some videos of it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwORN...eature=channel


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

markkmcanada said:


> Hi
> Can you guys take a look at my post and see if anyone can tell me some info on my motor. would it run a small car or 1/4 ton truck??
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/can-anyone-tell-me-motor-71611.html
> ...


You don't give much information about it. It looks similar to terryg's motor. See post #1661.


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## markkmcanada (Mar 25, 2012)

There's no information on it, that's part of the problem. A motor rebuilder looked at it and told me it was series wound.


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi,

I have the possibility to lay my hands on this motor.
I´m convertign a VW Polo, 96V lead acid. We´re here flatlanded and its for going round the town and countryside. Planed are 80km/h and 70km reach.

Size might be a problem. I asked for the dimensions. 
My first problem is the wiring. Could it be series wound? What are these cables for????

My second is: 24V, 215A, 4kW 1700rpm
With advancing the brushes could I manage to get: 96V, 215A, 15kW, 3400rpm???
I know (Wrong, I think I might know) that I will either have the rpm or the kW

I know the front plate is missing, but this will be made new together with the adapterplate

Any information is welcome. Especially because I cant use a motor from the States without certificates (EMC,CE)(which they dont have, afaik no one of them)

Have a nice evening,
Martin


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Kptn_Chaos said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the possibility to lay my hands on this motor.
> I´m convertign a VW Polo, 96V lead acid. We´re here flatlanded and its for going round the town and countryside. Planed are 80km/h and 70km reach.
> ...


Hi Kptn,

Probably is series wound from the looks of it. Over 200A for a one hour rating is darn good for a 4 brush motor, so no doubt had ventilation in the drive end head. It has few but large armature coils and therefore a low commutator bar count which may not tolerate high voltage. Besides that, low bar count means a low turns count meaning excessive RPM for high voltage, like your 96V calculation would result in 6800RPM at 215A. It looks like a quality machine, so might hold together. 48 or 72V would be better, but that reduces your rated power 8 or 12kW.

Hard telling how large it is from those photos. If it is greater than 8 inch diameter, I would give it a chance of doing your job if it holds up to the high RPM. It is a bit of a chore to fabricate the end head, so I might be inclined to look for another motor to use.

Regards,

major


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi major,

thanks for the info.

I still wish for a 48V with the same data. But all I can get is 80V with only 2000rpm and 11"diameter. 8,5" is the max with allready a little bit of metalwork on the body.

But wouldnt I avoid the high rpm with high gear and higher torque? Stepping up the kW and keeping the rpm down???
And I know the more commutuator bars (the graphite things?) I have the more amps and less wear possible. Right?

Excuse me if I´m saying it a lille too simple. But I´m mechanic to the bottom. And using tech terms I dont use in german makes it not easier in english.

Martin


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Kptn,


Kptn_Chaos said:


> But wouldnt I avoid the high rpm with high gear and higher torque? Stepping up the kW and keeping the rpm down???


Yep, but that takes more current (Amps). Power = Volts * Amps ....or Power = RPM * Torque. For a fixed motor, Volts and RPM are proportional.........and Amps and Torque are proportional. 

Too high Volts means high RPM (as well as arcing brushes). Too high torque from gearing load means high current (heat in the I²R and also overload on brushes causing arcing).

Them motors got limits 



> And I know the more commutuator bars (the graphite things?) I have the more amps and less wear possible. Right?


The comm bars are the copper segments of the round thing sometimes called the collector in Europe. The carbon or graphite things are the brushes and pass current thru to the spinning comm.

Regards,

major


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi major,

I still have´nt got the infos about size and frontplate, but I allrady have another question.

How about using 84volts? Is advancing the brusches 10 degrees enough? And how do I figure out, if the turningdircetion of the motor can be changed?

Right now I have the chance to get a D&D ES-31B, 72 -144volts. Its still quite expensive though.Would this work with 96volts to get the car moving? This motor was accepetd by the authorities in an ohter conversion (dont know right now how he did it) so I would not need the certificates. Stepping up the voltage is not possible due to allready too much weight.

Ok, more than one question
Martin


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Kptn_Chaos said:


> How about using 84volts? Is advancing the brusches 10 degrees enough? And how do I figure out, if the turningdircetion of the motor can be changed?


For this motor:









It shows what appears to be 4 power leads which are most likely A1, A2, S1, & S2. 2 for the armature and 2 for the series field. So it is reversible. 

The nameplate on that motor: 24V, 215A, 1700RPM. So at 84V ===> 84/24 * 1700 = 5950RPM. That's at 215A load. Less load would be higher RPM at 84V to the motor.

Of course you can use a high voltage battery and limit (or use lower) voltage to the motor with the controller. However, like I explained before, motor power is motor V * motor A or RPM * Torque.



Kptn_Chaos said:


> Right now I have the chance to get a D&D ES-31B, 72 -144volts. Its still quite expensive though.Would this work with 96volts to get the car moving? This motor was accepetd by the authorities in an ohter conversion (dont know right now how he did it) so I would not need the certificates. Stepping up the voltage is not possible due to allready too much weight.


I guess 96V with the D&D would move the car. D&D only makes 6.6" diameter motors to my knowledge. These are small for most cars. And I don't follow your logic on voltage and weight. Batteries come in all different sizes.

Regards,

major


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi major,

thanks for your patience with a mechanc mind.

I know batteries come in all sizes. But mine are 50x25x35cm, have 140Ah and 190Ah and weigh 50 and 60kg each and were sponsored. Thats why I cant get up to 144volts.

Ans as you wrote, that motor power is motor V * motor A or RPM * Torque, then isnt it that applying higher torque by using a higher gear woud reduce the rpm keeping the power?? Or I´m still off track??

Thanks again for your patience

Martin


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Kptn_Chaos said:


> Ans as you wrote, that motor power is motor V * motor A or RPM * Torque, then isnt it that applying higher torque by using a higher gear woud reduce the rpm keeping the power?? Or I´m still off track??


Yes, but......



major said:


> Yep, but that takes more current (Amps). Power = Volts * Amps ....or Power = RPM * Torque. For a fixed motor, Volts and RPM are proportional.........and Amps and Torque are proportional.
> 
> Too high Volts means high RPM (as well as arcing brushes). *Too high torque from gearing load means high current* (heat in the I²R and also overload on brushes causing arcing).


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Yep, got me again.

Not just reading, also rembering what one read. 

Thanks,
Martin


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi.

Could you please give me some advise on motors. I started to plan my first conversion what would be an small car about 2200lb. The goal is to be able to travell at 50 mph and about 30miles range. I plan to use 10X12v 85-110ah lead deep cycle batteries. The controller would be an open revolt 144v500a one and the motor would be an 48v dc 8-10kw pump motor. What do you think would a such motor be big enough? 

Thank You. Franky.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Franky - sounds like you are in the right ball-park.

The big deal with pump motors is that they typically don't have a nice male driveshaft on them, but rather an odd female connector that the pump pokes down into.

Also, pump motors are usually only designed to go the one direction, do make sure it's the CORRECT direction for your car! (Who needs 5 speeds of reverse, and one forward!?)

It seems to me too that pump motors also have angled brushes, whereas drive motors more typically have brushes square-on to the commutator.

I'm not saying that you can't use a pump motor, just be aware of how it may be different from a drive motor.

My car is using a completely unmarked 10.5" drive motor from a Nissan Forklift. It's worked great with the 144V/500 amp Open Revolt controller. Most of the time, I've had my car running at 72V, I only experimentally ever ran it at 144V. At that voltage, I think brush advancement is a good idea. My motor did get a little warm running 144V - but not bad for a 48V forklift motor!


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## wildcat_1967 (Apr 10, 2012)

I have a chance to get a couple of eaton drive motors part #7219720-01 out of two yale counter ballance lifts real cheap, however I dont want to take the time to pull them out if they are worthless for ev use does anyone know anything about these particular motors. I can get the pump motors and anything else I want from them as well. The cost will be by the lb. from a scrap yard.
Scott.


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

Thank Ben.

So if i am on the right track with the specs now need to get some parts. Is there anyone knows this Toyota pump motor specs? Will it fits in my plan?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120893789654?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2661
The seller cant give much info but said it is for a Toyota forklift.
Toyota part no:14310-12240-71
Denso part no: 180000-2251
48Volt 8kW 5Mins
Dia 200mm
Length 280mm
Is there any place on the net to find these infos as i tired to find specs on different 
motors but nothing come up.

Thanks. Franky.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Frank

The main problem with pump motor is they are rated for 5 min and not for an hour.
8Kw at 48v is 166A for five minutes. It a bit small compared at 200-220A rated motor for one hour (Warp 9 for example).
I think you will overheat this little beast easely if you drive for half an hour.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

wildcat_1967 said:


> I have a chance to get a couple of eaton drive motors part #7219720-01 out of two yale counter ballance lifts real cheap, however I dont want to take the time to pull them out if they are worthless for ev use does anyone know anything about these particular motors. I can get the pump motors and anything else I want from them as well. The cost will be by the lb. from a scrap yard.
> Scott.


Do they look like this? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150761&postcount=16


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi fellow UK EVer!

A couple of suggestions...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-drive..._Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item2a1bf9eeca

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lansing-B...811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a6f01ac63

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yang-Nikk...154?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a6eed0c7a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schabmull...043?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a6eecdd2b

this one looks quite good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LINDE-R14..._Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item3f15ca8ddc

this might be worth a look!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-1...ts_Vehicles_Automobila_ET&hash=item231c00f484

What kind of car are you looking at?

Cheers,

Mike


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

skooler said:


> this might be worth a look!
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-1...ts_Vehicles_Automobila_ET&hash=item231c00f484


Or just the motor here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-...100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4ab5288f34

There was a thread talking about using one of these milk float motors, but I can't remember the outcome.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

green caveman said:


> Or just the motor here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-...100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4ab5288f34
> 
> There was a thread talking about using one of these milk float motors, but I can't remember the outcome.


That looks almost exactly the same as my 12" motor. I was almost tempted to get but mine was only £100.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

skooler said:


> Hi fellow UK EVer!
> 
> A couple of suggestions...
> 
> ...


I think I would prefer this one to the pump motors TBH.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks almost exactly the same as my 12" motor. I was almost tempted to get but mine was only £100.


What did you conclude about the motor? Any idea what size car it would be good for? If the motor would get the job done the deal doesn't seem to bad.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

green caveman said:


> What did you conclude about the motor? Any idea what size car it would be good for? If the motor would get the job done the deal doesn't seem to bad.


I don't know for sure how big that motor is but my one weighs 114kg, is foot mounted and has 6 cables poking out of holes in the frame. Not the easiest configuration to work with as the opposing field coils need to be correctly wired together.

The shaft is a taper fit with a key way so it may need machining to use with a conventional coupler. However, the existing flexible joint would be great for a direct drive set up.

Mine feels really strong and torquey but top speed would be limited due to the size of the armature.

Mine was a nice motor, until the machinist at work, doing me a favour, turned the shaft off centre!
I might find a way to get it fixed one day.


As for what car it would be suitable for, it could direct drive something big or use a trans for better speed range but no good for a small car as it would weigh more then the lithium pack would!
It is also a long motor, too long to fit in the back of an MR2 Rev2.

Also the DE is light weight and decorative and so a new one would need to be made to allow it to mount onto a trans adapter plate. Otherwise it would only be good for driving a prop shaft to the rear end.


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

Wow. Thank you all of your replies. I have seen all of these motors on ebay except the milkfloater motor. My donor would be something from a suzuki swift(geo metro) up to ford focus sized car whatever come up cheap enough in reasonable condition. One of these motors is too big(heavy) for the size of mi (planed) car other one has 80v rated voltage others has 3-8kw output what may not be enough to maintain 50 mph in a such car. I would use it to go to work and back what is a 10 miles round trip and on my way to home i may use highway hence the speed demand (only 3.5 miles). Ocassionaly on weekends would have to do 30 miles on one charge. My plan is 120v lead acid pack so i think a 48v 10kw motor on 120v would do 25kw=34bhp what would be enough to accelerate 2200lb of metal(and me). Does it make sense or i am wrong?

Who sells the linde r14 drive motor has the pump motor available as well. The specs are 48v , 230 amp, 2900 rpm, 90 kilowatt(?). Is it any good or should i go for a bigger one?
Thanks. Franky.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

franky975 said:


> My plan is 120v lead acid pack


Off-topic for this thread, but don't buy batteries until the very end of the conversion and when you do, take a very close look at the advantages of Lithium batteries (which, hopefully, by then will have dropped even further in price).

There are many threads on this topic. Short summary. Although Lithiums are a higher initial investment (say twice as much) the general thought is that over the long term they are more cost effective (more charge cycles). They're easier to mount - the physical size is smaller. The lower weight makes for a car that "feels" much better.


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## wildcat_1967 (Apr 10, 2012)

jrp3, that does indeed look like them.


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## wildcat_1967 (Apr 10, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Do they look like this? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150761&postcount=16


yes that looks like them JRP3.
Scott.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

franky975 said:


> Wow. Thank you all of your replies. I have seen all of these motors on ebay except the milkfloater motor. My donor would be something from a suzuki swift(geo metro) up to ford focus sized car whatever come up cheap enough in reasonable condition. One of these motors is too big(heavy) for the size of mi (planed) car other one has 80v rated voltage others has 3-8kw output what may not be enough to maintain 50 mph in a such car. I would use it to go to work and back what is a 10 miles round trip and on my way to home i may use highway hence the speed demand (only 3.5 miles). Ocassionaly on weekends would have to do 30 miles on one charge. My plan is 120v lead acid pack so i think a 48v 10kw motor on 120v would do 25kw=34bhp what would be enough to accelerate 2200lb of metal(and me). Does it make sense or i am wrong?
> 
> Who sells the linde r14 drive motor has the pump motor available as well. The specs are 48v , 230 amp, 2900 rpm, 90 kilowatt(?). Is it any good or should i go for a bigger one?
> Thanks. Franky.


One initial indicator of size would be the physical dimensions of the motor, about 9" diameter would be about the right starting point for your conversion. Much smaller and it won't be powerful enough, much bigger and it will be heavy and not spin fast enough.

The specs on the 48V pump motor you describe sounds good but is more likely 9.0kW. That would be the sort of spec you could look for. Drive motors are better to go for as they have a higher duty cycle rating, usually 1 hour as opposed to pumps which are maybe 5 minutes, at full rated power. Also pump motors tend to have female shafts which are really difficult to use in a conversion.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

franky975 said:


> My plan is 120v lead acid pack so i think a 48v 10kw motor on 120v would do 25kw=34bhp what would be enough to accelerate 2200lb of metal(and me). Does it make sense or i am wrong?


Roughly, you are right. 25 Kw is a good amount of power to move a small car. And you can obtain much more power for few sec. during an acceleration.

But the main problem remain. The power of a pump motor is only rated for 5 min... after this time, it will overheat. 
Try to find a motor with one hour rated.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi All

I am going to convert an MGB. Found them in a barn in Feb. I have an 8" pump motor that was on the forklift I got the 11" motor for the Ranger conversion.

Anyway it is a GE 20% duty 7.4 KW 280 amps. The one with the funny looking extensions on the drive end.

I put it in the car to test different pack voltages. 72,96 and 120 volt.
120 gives plenty of speed. I put a fan to blow air through it . The motor temp has only gotten up to 90 F. so far. I have only driven it a few miles at a time.

The question is to maintain speed the motor draws about 160 amps, bat amps about 80. In the ranger with 11" motor it only takes half the motor amps to do that. Is this a difference because of the motor size or is it just not enough motor. 

Thanks Alvin


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Whats a rule for max armature rpm for the different dia motors?


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## salsmeyer (Apr 17, 2012)

Greetings: This is a wonderful thread! I bought this Allis-Chalmers motor 28 years ago and now ready to convert my '82 S10. I'm planning to use Lithium batteries and keep the weight down where possible (motor weighs 200 plus).
Motor specs:
7HP 180 amps 840 rpm with open perf. covers
4.5HP 120 amps 970 rpm with solid covers
36 volts series wound
serv.factor: 1.0
1 hour duty
deg. C. rise winding: 115
deg. C. rise comm.: 130
Ser.# 7-6328-17266-1-67
57 comm bars (near as I could count)
insulation class: F

The brushes and comm looks good with little wear, inside of motor is clean, I have the gear for the taper shaft. What is a safe voltage? (will fan cool if necessary) What would be a good controller? Is this a good motor for the S10? Any and all advice is welcome.


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## salsmeyer (Apr 17, 2012)

I forgot to put the size of the Allis-Chalmers motor: 11.5" dia 16" long


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

*Fork lift Hydraulic Motor*

Hi Guy's
Do you think a 48v 6KW Forklift Hydraulic motor would be any good for an EV??

I have seen one for sale but have no other details, except that it looks to have a hollow shaft. (flush with the motor).

John


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

salsmeyer said:


> I forgot to put the size of the Allis-Chalmers motor: 11.5" dia 16" long


Hi sals,

That looks like a very nice motor for a truck. I suspect 120V would work with 8-10º advance. Keep the RPM below 4000 and it should pull nicely.

major


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: Fork lift Hydraulic Motor*



johnsiddle said:


> ..... except that it looks to have a hollow shaft. (flush with the motor).


And that's the problem. How do you couple it to the driveline?

Other than that, we need nameplate data and photos.

major


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

The best I can do is post the fleabay link.

I assume the shaft will have a hollow gear, I will try and contact the seller for more info

180862201751



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-hydra..._Lifting_Moving_Equipment&hash=item2a1c3a2f97

John


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> I assume the shaft will have a hollow gear......


Yes, sure. Most of these lift pump motors use an internal spline. Some of the smaller aux. pump motors use a tang/slot drive. Even if you have the spline specification, how do you couple to the driveline? It won't be easy and by the time you're done doing it, you're likely out more money than buying a motor with a proper shaft.

Other than that, it looks like maybe a 7 or 8 inch diameter motor and carries that 6kW rating at 5 minutes. So could be down to 3 or 4 kW for a 1 hour rating. At increased voltage if the RPM doesn't become excessive, it could propel a small car.

Cheers,

major


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

major said:


> Yes, sure. Most of these lift pump motors use an internal spline. Some of the smaller aux. pump motors use a tang/slot drive. Even if you have the spline specification, how do you couple to the driveline? It won't be easy and by the time you're done doing it, you're likely out more money than buying a motor with a proper shaft.
> 
> Other than that, it looks like maybe a 7 or 8 inch diameter motor and carries that 6kW rating at 5 minutes. So could be down to 3 or 4 kW for a 1 hour rating. At increased voltage if the RPM doesn't become excessive, it could propel a small car.
> 
> ...


Cheers Major.

I have asked for some more info, I have also found one rated at 12KW and 310amps, it appears to have the pump on the motor end plate fitted but I supposed it could be cut off to reveal the shaft inside( its probably a worm gear built into the shaft) so it might be easier.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270947111540?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Just worked out that 12KW at 48v is 250amps, maybe 310amps is the max.

Another motor I found is a drive motor this time is rated at 3.5KW at 48v for an hour.
The first one I found is a hollow splined shaft but he has the pump shaft that locates into it, dont know the sizes tho.


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## DIT (Mar 15, 2012)

Just looking for some info on what way to wire this motor just to test run it.

Are the 4 connections live and will it have a separate earth wire?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIT said:


> Just looking for some info on what way to wire this motor just to test run it.
> 
> Are the 4 connections live and will it have a separate earth wire?


Hi DIT,

No earth on these fork motors. They run isolated propulsion systems. The battery and motor do not connect to chassis electrically.

Do not the terminals on the motor have any markings? The typical traction motor has 4 terminals, 2 for the field (usually S1 & S2) and 2 for the armature (usually A1 & A2). The A terminals connect to the brushes. The S terminals to the field coils. Often you can see these connections and tell which are which.

It appears this is a series motor. Means the field is connected in series with the armature. So to test, be sure to use only a low voltage battery (12V or lower) otherwise it will overspeed with no load. Connect one S terminal to the battery. Connect the other S terminal to an A terminal. Connect the other A terminal to the other battery terminal.

Regards,

major


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## rtcaldwell (Apr 4, 2012)

what brand/specs would be good enough to propel a 60's classic american car at highway speeds. I was thinking maybe 11"-13" forklift motor, but have no idea what i should be looking for.

is there any chart that has been created detailing previously used forklift motors successfully by overvolting


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have never seen a list like that. I am using an 11" GE from a Hyster forklift. 144 volt no advance top speed 60 mph in 5th gear. It is in a Ranger and finished wieght is 3120 pounds.

Hope this helps

Alvin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could do a search on www.evalbum.com for motor type and see what people have used.


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## rtcaldwell (Apr 4, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> You could do a search on www.evalbum.com for motor type and see what people have used.


I've done some looking there and found a few similar cars, but the cars similar to mine all used Lead batteries and plan on using Li batteries.

I know a 11" WARP motor would be my an excellent motor for my build, but I don't have $3500 to toss down on one if I want to use Lithium batteries due to budgetary restrictions.




alvin said:


> I am using an 11" GE from a Hyster forklift. 144 volt no advance top speed 60 mph in 5th gear. It is in a Ranger and finished wieght is 3120 pounds.
> 
> Hope this helps


That is very helpful Alvin. Most forklift dealers/repair shops in my area say the only deal in 36v or 48v motors, so I'll have to do some more specialized looking, but at least that gives me a model and rough performance as a reference. I figure mine will weigh about 3000 lbs. or so when finished based off what others have posted.

As I continue to look, I may see if I can compile a list to be attached to this sticky.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes my motor is 36/48 volt. I am overvolting it. 

Alvin


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

alvin said:


> Yes my motor is 36/48 volt. I am overvolting it.
> 
> Alvin


144 Volts with no advance? No arcing problems?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I ask on this thread once how I would know if it is arcing. The answer was 

I would know. Well I never noticed anything so it must not be arcing.

Alvin


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi. 

There is my forklift motor. Could you give me some advice on do the bushes need to be advanced and if so how much? It will run on 120v. Also there are two connections on the case marked with A and F. Could you let me know how they connect as either way connected it spins at the same direction.
There are some pics.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like a single direction pump motor, I don't think it matters how it's wired. 10-12 degrees seem to be the standard advance used.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi Guy's
Following my previous post concerning a hydraulic motor.
I have some more details concerning one.

I take your point Major about the coupling to what I assume is a hollow spine but having the pump part with its spindle should make life easier.

The motor markings are 48V 230 amps and 9.0kw 2900rpm it has small fans fitted for cooling but I think I could sort out a fairly high power air pump.

The whole assy measures 16ins long ( I think the pump part will account for about 3ins) so say 13ins and is 7.5ins dia.

What do you think this could push if run from 144v and current limited to 200amps.

Your idea's are appreciated..
John


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That comes out to around 28kw, or 37hp.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

franky975 said:


> Hi.
> 
> There is my forklift motor. Could you give me some advice on do the bushes need to be advanced and if so how much? It will run on 120v. Also there are two connections on the case marked with A and F. Could you let me know how they connect as either way connected it spins at the same direction.
> There are some pics.


If its turning in the right direction it wont matter connections wise, if you have a multimeter check to see it either of the connections is earthed to the frame. 
If it is you must make sure your chassis is not earthed to either + or - otherwise you will be shorting one of these connections out which will almost certainly blow something up.

If it is going in the wrong direction then some how you will need to find where the two windings are connected together and reverse one of them, it doesn't matter which one. This will reverse the direction. They might be connected together at the body of the motor but you will know that from your multimeter test.
John


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Looks like a single direction pump motor, I don't think it matters how it's wired. 10-12 degrees seem to be the standard advance used.


Thanks JRP3. That what i was think about 10 degrees.

Thanks John.

I have tested it and it is not connected to earth. Direction wise the motor spins to the right direction. I have spun it from a 12v battery and could not see any difference how it spuns with either connection but there had no load on it. There is a reason /i think/ why they marked them with different letters. I am work on cars so have no specific knowledge on electric motors.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

franky975 said:


> Thanks JRP3. That what i was think about 10 degrees.
> 
> Thanks John.
> 
> I have tested it and it is not connected to earth. Direction wise the motor spins to the right direction. I have spun it from a 12v battery and could not see any difference how it spuns with either connection but there had no load on it. There is a reason /i think/ why they marked them with different letters. I am work on cars so have no specific knowledge on electric motors.



The one marked A will go directly to one of the brushes and the one marked F will go directly to the field, not sure why they bothered to mark them if the center point is not connected to the frame/earth of the motor.
But if it goes the right direction it doesn't matter which way you connect it.
John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

franky975 said:


> Hi.
> 
> There is my forklift motor. Could you give me some advice on do the bushes need to be advanced and if so how much? It will run on 120v. Also there are two connections on the case marked with A and F. Could you let me know how they connect as either way connected it spins at the same direction.
> There are some pics.


Hi Franky.
Just out of interest what car are you converting and what are the dimensions of your motor?
I am approaching the same stage as you and am looking at hydraulic motor.
Regards John


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

johnsiddle said:


> Hi Franky.
> Just out of interest what car are you converting and what are the dimensions of your motor?
> I am approaching the same stage as you and am looking at hydraulic motor.
> Regards John



Hi John.

The motor dimensions are 8"x11" and weights 66lb. Bought from ebay for £65 and is brand new. It seems be a bit under powered but cant find better localy or on ebay with delivery option.
I have no donor car jet. It will be something small up to golf/focus sized car generaly for commuting 10 miles a day. Currently focusing to get the parts to start the build of controller/charger.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

franky975 said:


> Hi John.
> 
> The motor dimensions are 8"x11" and weights 66lb. Bought from ebay for £65 and is brand new. It seems be a bit under powered but cant find better localy or on ebay with delivery option.
> I have no donor car jet. It will be something small up to golf/focus sized car generaly for commuting 10 miles a day. Currently focusing to get the parts to start the build of controller/charger.



Thanks Franky we are both in the same boat, I too am collecting and planning to build my own controller sort of based om Paul and Sabrina's controller.
I am electronics trained should be OK, I am currently experimenting with some electronics.

There's nothing much selling on ebay motor wise at the moment.
John


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

johnsiddle said:


> Thanks Franky we are both in the same boat, I too am collecting and planning to build my own controller sort of based om Paul and Sabrina's controller.
> I am electronics trained should be OK, I am currently experimenting with some electronics.
> 
> There's nothing much selling on ebay motor wise at the moment.
> John


Realy in the same boat... I am waiting for the pcbs from Paul and Sabrina. I have everything else to build it.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

franky975 said:


> Realy in the same boat... I am waiting for the pcbs from Paul and Sabrina. I have everything else to build it.


Correction.... you are way ahead of me...


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## 21940 (Aug 23, 2011)

Howdy folks! After spending part of the day yesterday at a small EV get-together, I'm fired up to work on my 97 Jetta I'm converting with two of my friends. We were poking around at motors, and this one came up:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360454661776

There are no pics of the motor nameplate; but it appears to be a series wound Nikko motor with a brake on the back.

_This auction is for a DC Electric motor # 3BA-17-33660 Good Used! AS-IS

Came off a 4000 lbs unit

s/n 0-51000-2220

2.5 KW

DC 36 volt Motor

11" long on case

16" over all length

8 " Case diameter !

With a Spline Shaft !_

I thought that size-wise it sounded good, but a caution flag was thrown up by the fact that they're calling it 2.5 kW - I'm sure that's not nearly strong enough; only 3.3 hp?

Could one of you folks take a gander at it and let me know if I should (have) pulled the trigger, or if it really would be as underwhelming as I think it would be?

Thanks in advance!


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

HI All.

I was trawling the web and found this motor guide that looked like it might be helpful in looking for motors. Mostly because it lists power specs for many of them. One that grabbed my attention (with a bunch of similar part numbers) has a 30 minute cycle rating of 140hp(!). It's rated at 36V for 475A. Does that sound like it might be a useful motor for an EV? many of the part number are noted as clockwise pump motors, but for that power I'd make an adapter shaft. 

For an EV, what kind of rated current should I be looking for? 2 or 3 amps aught to be fine, right? Just kidding, I'm guessing the higher ones like 185A are going to be the best bets, but what about the 120A options?

http://www.smhco.com.br/folhetos_smh/15EleMotor08WEB.pdf


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> .......One that grabbed my attention (with a bunch of similar part numbers) has a 30 minute cycle rating of 140hp(!). It's rated at 36V for 475A. Does that sound like it might be a useful motor for an EV?.......


Hey vwd,

Do the math. 36V*475A = 17100W. 140hp  Maybe a typo 

Regards,

major


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

major said:


> Hey vwd,
> 
> Do the math. 36V*475A = 17100W. 140hp  Maybe a typo
> 
> ...


 
A typo would make sense. Especially if they copy/pasted there way through the document. I guess I assumed instantaneous power versus sustained.

What about the others? Would somethign rated for 36V/185A be worthwhile?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

alvin said:


> Hi All
> 
> I am going to convert an MGB. Found them in a barn in Feb. I have an 8" pump motor that was on the forklift I got the 11" motor for the Ranger conversion.
> 
> ...


 

I replaced the 8" motor with the 11" . Its makes a big difference in the amount of power used.

Before it used about 800wh per mile , now it is about 260wh per mile. At 35 mph.

I'm not sure why , maybe the torque.

Alvin


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## vwmike911 (Jan 20, 2012)

Hi im new to this and hopeing to use a lift motor to power a vw beetle, i have two lift motors at presant and was enquiering weather either would be suitable for this? the motors are as follows

STILL Typ GP116-14/5.5 24v 400A 2200 u/min 7.6 Kw

STILL Typ GF146-14/5.6 24v 215A 1700 u/min 4.0 Kw

Cheers
Mike


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## Kptn_Chaos (Apr 4, 2011)

Hallo there,

I too have found a motor where I again need advice.
Car: Polo, weight 1200kg, 96V, flat terrain,
my wish: max speed 80km/h, range 70km, Lead acid (4X140Ah, 4X190Ah)

I know the motor is on the lowest limit, but I spent 8 month up to now looking for a motor (everything you can buy comes without the approval of the german authorities)

Thanks,
Martin


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## samD (Sep 2, 2011)

Hi, I have bought a Bosch 24V 1100W 1500 rpm motor (0 136 500 035), to build an electric motorcycle.

It weighs 44lbs. Armature is 3.8 inches (94mm) diameter and central shaft is 329mm (13 inches) long.

But it has four connections - A1,A2, 1D1 and 2D2. 
It's the same as these:
http://campe-fahrzeugbedarf.de/E-DC...tor-E-Motor-24V-11kw-AMP4640--12412_9134.html

I'm assuming 1D1 and 2D2 would be just like S1 and S2? Is there are way I can test with a multimeter? Been looking for awhile here but so many pages!

Thoughts on a motor that size for a motorbike, overvolted to say 36v?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

samD said:


> Hi, I have bought a Bosch 24V 1100W 1500 rpm motor (0 136 500 035), to build an electric motorcycle.
> 
> It weighs 44lbs. Armature is 3.8 inches (94mm) diameter and central shaft is 329mm (13 inches) long.
> 
> ...


Almost certainly these two connections go to the frame. If you have a multimeter check the resistance between 1D1 and 2D2, should be pretty much a short circuit ( zero ohms) if so connect say 1d1 to A1 and then apply 12v to A2 and 2D2 and see if the motor turns and which direction, if wrong for you swap over A1 A2.

Dont know the max current you can push thro this motor, it depends on the thichness of the fram windings and the wires/size of the brushes. I wold have thought it would be OK at 36v. Dont put more than 24v on it unless it is driving the bike tho in case it over revs.

Just looked at the motor, I think you will need to add some extra cooling, cuz it has none and looks well sealed.
I think before connecting anything to it I would see if I can trace where 1d1 and 2d2 go to, maybe put a compass near it to see if there are any magnets inside. 1D1 and 2D2 may be a tacho and only A1 and A2 are used to drive it


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Is that a series DC motor? I have very similar Bosch-motor from forklift and if I remember right its terminals were labeled A1, A2, D1 and D2. It is 3kW and 48V though. I'd say it is bad if those D1/D2 connections have electrical path to frame. There might be some measurable resistance but it shouldn't be near zero. IP12 isnt' well sealed. Install thermistor inside the motor and monitor field coil temps to help not to cook your motor.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

mora said:


> Is that a series DC motor? I have very similar Bosch-motor from forklift and if I remember right its terminals were labeled A1, A2, D1 and D2. It is 3kW and 48V though. I'd say it is bad if those D1/D2 connections have electrical path to frame. There might be some measurable resistance but it shouldn't be near zero. IP12 isnt' well sealed. Install thermistor inside the motor and monitor field coil temps to help not to cook your motor.


The point about resistance of D2/D1 is that if it is a series motor it will be very low almost zero, if it is much higher then D1/D2 might be something else and not a winding.
The spec for the motor states that there is NO Cooling built in and appears to state that it is rated at its power for 60mins, after which it will start getting hot.
Sealed to IP12 it may be but no air is going to get in to cool it.

I would deffo strip it down and see where those D1/D2 connections go. It may well be a Perm Magnet Motor which only needs two connections to work.


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## samD (Sep 2, 2011)

Thanks for that.

I found a replacement armature online - don't think it could be a permanent mag? http://www.bluetraction.eu/promos/800395.pdf

Might wave a compass past it to be sure. It'd be nice if it was, some neodymiums popped in would soup it up.

I run 1200 watts in my brushed electric pushbike (Aprilia Enjoy) and it only gets to 45 degrees. I doubt something four times bigger rated at 1100W would even get warm in a motorbike with a bit of air funnelling. Easy to fit a sensor I suppose.


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## Pbk (Jun 3, 2012)

hi guys this is the motor I got from a toyota forklift, it looks almost new and is a Denso 36v 3.3 kW 60 min. it has four brushes about 1/2 inch by 1 and 1/2 inch and four posts marked E A F B. shaft is splined with 21 high spots, the comutartor has 69 bars. and it has a mount for a brake on the fan side. I have the brake its got a hydraulic and mechanical action. I havent found any more info on it yet but here are some pics. hope to find a Austin mini to put it in but may settle on bmw E30 if you think it will push it.
goals are Max 45 MPH and 15 mile range maybe less if they let me plug it into the parkinglot outlet at work.


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## benfroggg (Jun 11, 2012)

Hey all-
First post. I did, in fact, read the entire thread from the beginning. It's taken something like 5 weeks here and there to do it!
I think I already know the answer to my questions after reading, I would just like some reinforcement.

Here's a link to my build video thread at youtube, part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWgvaM9DCVo

Here's a link to my motor rebuild, part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPhw18PG9g

In the interest of full disclosure:
Yes, I monetize my videos. No, I'm not here pushing for monetizable views. I'm only looking for advice.

Specs are 
24v
6.7"
Vented both ends
7/8" keyed shaft
4 good sized brushes (see video for size)
Came from a stock picker crown truck. Almost free.

I intend to cool it with a muffin fan and ducting from my 12v source.

I'm going to use 60v of lithium to power this beast. 
Overall weight with me in it should be 1100 to 1200 #'s. It's possible it will be lighter, but those are my conservative estimates. It will have a full low Cd body built of aluminum in the shape of a boat tail or plane fuselage. I will enclose the front wheel and eventually cover the bottom with underpaneling made of coroplast. 
I have a lot of experience in lowering drag; see my other video about my 65+ mpg honda civic for more info on that.

I know this motor is a little on the small side. I'm hoping with cooling it will be okay for what I want. I'm going to use the original 3 speed gear box for the conversion. However, only gears 1 and 2 will be practical, given my gear ratios. I want a top speed of 55mph.

What do you think of my motor?
Thanks 
B


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

benfroggg said:


> Here's a link to my motor rebuild, part 3:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPhw18PG9g
> .............
> What do you think of my motor?


Hi froggg,

I think you probably knocked 3 or 4% off efficiency at high speed by sanding the surfaces of the core and pole faces. That neutralizes the lamination insulation which results in higher eddy current loss.

I cringe when I see someone remove what appears to be a nice film on the commutator. Unless there was some comm damage, there was no reason to turn it. And I doubt there was damage because the brushes were in reasonably good shape. 

For future armature handling, do not touch the comm surface. The oil from your hands is enough to contaminate that film. Treat it like it is gold plated. And even on a newly turned comm, keep your greasy fingers off it. 

Since you turned the comm, you now need to shape and seat the brushes and establish a comm film. That should take 20 to 50 hours of break-in.

I have no idea why you pressed out the CE bearing, but by doing that, you ruined it. If you did not replace it, it will fail shortly. And when you assemble the new replacement bearing, use a tool on the inner race with a press.

Basically I saw no need for a rebuild (if that is what you call your attack on the motor), just a blast of dry compressed air would have cleared out the brush dust. That is a vented motor without fan. So there is no forced air to clear the dust and it settles all over the inside of the motor. No big deal. Just blow it out every 500 hours or so.

It looks like the old Prestolite MJT series motor or a clone by ADC or Crown's in house motor build. Solid 24V design and same armature was also used at 36V for lift pump drives. It is 37 slot and bar, 4.25" dia x 3.25" stack length. I think it had 13.5 T/C on the fields in S/P. It was pretty speedy at 36V so it will scream at 60V. The molded comm (plastic core) will likely take 6000RPM, maybe more, but will come apart eventually. You'll need some type of overspeed protection, or scatter shield.

Regards,

major


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## benfroggg (Jun 11, 2012)

Major-
Thanks for the info.
I read about not sanding those faces after I'd already done it. Too little, too late I'm afraid. Such is life.
As to the com, yes, there was considerable pitting and some scratching. It appeared to me like it should have been turned, but I'm not an expert. 
I didn't realize the oil from my hands was a no no. Future reference I guess.

I didn't press out the bearing. I pressed out the shaft that was seated in the bearing with a gear puller. Did I damage the bearing in this way somehow?

I assumed the brushes would take time to reseat. Is there any way to speed that process? Run it at 6v with no load for an hour?

Any reason why the motor rpms were considerably faster after cleaning/com turning? I assumed it was because I'd done something to improve it. 

The inside was basically completely coated with thick grease. Even if it wasn't necessary, I sure feel better about it. Does the grease not really affect performance?

I plan to install a blower to keep this cool anyhow. That should keep the brush dust to a minimum. 

I intend to use the stock vehicle transmission. The only gear I'd be worried about overspeeding would be 1st. I only intend to use 1st for around town (less than 40 mph), and given my gear calculations, should keep me under 4k. I intend to use the Altrax AXE 7245 for a controller at this time. Should I still be concerned with overspeed protection? 

My biggest unanswered question is an opinion about using this motor for this load/goal top speed/etc. Is it going to be run very warm and perhaps not be the best choice, or will using the blower be just fine?
Thanks for the help.
B


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

benfroggg said:


> I didn't press out the bearing. I pressed out the shaft that was seated in the bearing with a gear puller. Did I damage the bearing in this way somehow?


Yes. We called it Birnelling. The side loading required to overcome the mean press fit of the inner race to shaft applied to the outer race by the puller leaves microscopic dents at the ball/race contacts. This will lead to bearing failure. Whenever a bearing is disassembled this way, it is ruined. In that motor design, the outer race is retained in the CEH, so there is no way to disassemble it other than wasting the bearing.

Birnelling must also be avoided when assembling the new bearing. A proper tool and press is needed.




> I assumed the brushes would take time to reseat. Is there any way to speed that process? Run it at 6v with no load for an hour?


Did I mention 20 to 50 hours? That would be a good start.




> Any reason why the motor rpms were considerably faster after cleaning/com turning?


Sure. Opened up air gap from sanding the poles and core, or altered brush/comm contact are a couple which come to mind. 



> I assumed it was because I'd done something to improve it.


I doubt it.




> The inside was basically completely coated with thick grease. Even if it wasn't necessary, I sure feel better about it. Does the grease not really affect performance?


Not that I am aware. Clean motors make you feel better but don't necessarily run better than dirty motors. 




> Should I still be concerned with overspeed protection?


Yes.




> Is it going to be run very warm and perhaps not be the best choice, or will using the blower be just fine?


Hard tellin'. You're basically looking at a golf cart size motor. Maybe more like one of those "high performance" cart motors, but still.... I didn't read all your vehicle stuff, just about the motor. Maybe another member will comment about the application suitability.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd think with forced cooling and mostly low speed around town driving the motor should push the Cushman around fairly well.


----------



## benfroggg (Jun 11, 2012)

Major, 
Thank you again for your info.

Any thoughts on where to source that bearing? I'm going to check mcmaster carr when I get it out again. Are the bearings specific to electric motor applications?

I think what I'll do is run that motor on my 6v bank with no load (4 6v trojans) and a 6v charger running for several hours, being careful not to deplete the pack. Then let the batteries recharge, and repeat until they are seated.

JRP3-
What's your definition of low speed running?
My last EV was a 74 harley SX350 with a 1hp ADC perm mag motor. It was run at 36v with a LiFeP04 pack. I created a roman chariot looking enclosure for it that increased it's range from 24 miles to 34 miles. It's top speed was 43mph. It's weight was near 700 #'s with me on it. Pretty underpowered, but it did the job until the motor got too hot on a very warm day. There was no opportunity for blower cooling because it was a sealed case motor.

I'm hoping for top speed for 50-55mph, and range at 25-35 mph to be over 40 miles driving conservatively. As mentioned, the much lower than normal drag coefficient should help this a lot. Trouble is, the weight of the vehicle on hills will still be prohibitive. 

Given this set of circumstances, am I pushing my luck with this motor?
B


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know if you can hit 55mph and probably not for long if you do, I just don't know enough about the power requirements of that vehicle. Cruising around town at 30-40 should not be a problem. My 750lb 6x6 with a similarly sized motor at 48 V geared 16:1 with 21 inch tires has a top speed of 22mph and can pull a trailer with 400lbs of load up a 45 degree hill, but just barely. Obviously that hill is extreme and my 6 tires at 2psi have a lot of rolling resistance so I'm not sure how relevant that data point is. I guess you just have to build it and see what happens, that's how I did it


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

I am considering buying a crown 30sp36tl forklift...(see pics below). i can't figure out what kind of motor this has in it! I've googled everything, but get nothing on the specs. Can someone here enlighten me? Would this be a good dc motor for my first ev conversion??

Looks like it weighs over 6000 lbs including batteries. Also, it can carry up to 3000 lbs. It sure should push my Volvo around, but will it be extremely slow? Does the fact that it is 24 volts bad? Good? 

Any tips appreciated!


----------



## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Pic of the identification plate on the forklift.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

adeyo said:


> I am considering buying a crown 30sp36tl forklift...(see pics below). i can't figure out what kind of motor this has in it! I've googled everything, but get nothing on the specs. Can someone here enlighten me? Would this be a good dc motor for my first ev conversion??
> 
> Looks like it weighs over 6000 lbs including batteries. Also, it can carry up to 3000 lbs. It sure should push my Volvo around, but will it be extremely slow? Does the fact that it is 24 volts bad? Good?
> 
> Any tips appreciated!


Hi adeyo,
I'm afraid this motor is small for your volvo, but it is ok for a motorcycle...


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## adeyo (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. What leads you to think this exactly? (btw, not sure if this picture of the motor is driving the forklift or auxiliary) ...is it because of the voltage or the kind of forklift? (it is capable of pushing upwards of 9000 lbs around right?)


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## Jason77 (Jun 25, 2012)

I have noticed alot of people have decided to use small cars. I want to do burnouts in a 7000lbs truck and then go 120km/h down the highway. Does anyone have suggestions for motors? If you could tell me what you think is a good voltage and amperage that would be great. And btw i dont care if i dont find it in a forklift lol. And dont worry about batteries 2000lbs of the 7000 lbs i left just for batteries.

Thanks in advance for any replies to this!


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Jason77 said:


> I have noticed alot of people have decided to use small cars. I want to do burnouts in a 7000lbs truck and then go 120km/h down the highway. Does anyone have suggestions for motors? If you could tell me what you think is a good voltage and amperage that would be great. And btw i dont care if i dont find it in a forklift lol. And dont worry about batteries 2000lbs of the 7000 lbs i left just for batteries.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any replies to this!


You're probably going to want twin 11"ers to reach burnout power. You're also going to need lots of high discharge cells.

Take a look at the EVTV escalade build for ideas.


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## Jason77 (Jun 25, 2012)

Two 11 inch motors will take too much power. Does any one know if a warp11 motor would do well in an older mustang? And i mean warp 11 not warp 11 HV. If so how many 12v deep cycle batteries would i need to run one of these motors at contuniuos speeds with occasional start atop, and is it possible to find out how many kms that will take me?

Thanks for advice in advance


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## KieranD (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi guys
Completely new to all this and just want peoples opinions on a DC motor that's on ebay at the moment. Its a 67V, 10HP, 1400rpm, 240lbs motor taken from a forklift. Would it be suitable in a 1988 vw golf with an intended top speed of 60mph. 
Thanks in advance
Kieran


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## nsk1 (Jul 11, 2012)

oh man. this thread saved a ton of time.


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## triumph1 (Sep 29, 2012)

I have found a Clark lift DC motor part#2755281, 36/48 volts. Will this be bid enough for my electric car project, have not looked inside yet, this is a big motor. By the way I am a newbe. Regards Nigel.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

triumph1 said:


> I have found a Clark lift DC motor part#2755281, 36/48 volts. Will this be bid enough for my electric car project, have not looked inside yet, this is a big motor. By the way I am a newbe. Regards Nigel.


Hi tri,

Not many, if any, here recognize or can look up a Clark part number. You will likely get some information and opinions if you post photos and dimensions.

Welcome aboard,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Hi tri,
> 
> Not many, if any, here recognize or can look up a Clark part number.


Actually 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Motor-2755281-36-48V-Forklift-Electric-cars-/180736569836


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

Hello,
i'm new to this forum and to the EV build. I have some questions that i would appreciate if they could be answered.
1. I have bought a forklift pump motor from a scrap yard with specifications 75V 105A 6.5KW and 2800rpm. The motor has only two connectors for the plus and minus wires from the power supply. The motor is a Balkancar G.Kostov and i think it is a compund motor. Can i use this motor to make and electric motorcycle that will go at a top speed of 50 km/h with a motorweght of 130kg and passenger weight of 140 -150 kg. The power supply sistem should be 48 or 72v with 55ah batteries.
2. If this is indeed a compound motor where to find a controller for it and what is the price range of such a controller ?

Thanks in advance,
Ice.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Actually
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Motor-2755281-36-48V-Forklift-Electric-cars-/180736569836


Looks like a fine motor and big enough for midsize EV cars.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> Hello,
> i'm new to this forum and to the EV build. I have some questions that i would appreciate if they could be answered.
> 1. I have bought a forklift pump motor from a scrap yard with specifications 75V 105A 6.5KW and 2800rpm. The motor has only two connectors for the plus and minus wires from the power supply. The motor is a Balkancar G.Kostov and i think it is a compund motor. Can i use this motor to make and electric motorcycle that will go at a top speed of 50 km/h with a motorweght of 130kg and passenger weight of 140 -150 kg. The power supply sistem should be 48 or 72v with 55ah batteries.
> 2. If this is indeed a compound motor where to find a controller for it and what is the price range of such a controller ?
> ...


Hi Ice,

From the sounds of it, I'd say it likely could do well in a smaller MC with your modest performance goals. You can run a compound motor from a controller meant for series motors. I do in my garden tractor. It is not the best way to control the compound motor, but it works. I think your bigger problem would be the shaft coupling.

Get some more details and throw up some photos.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

For interfacing with a slot drive pump motor I had a shaft made with a tang to fit the slot and a housing with a bearing that bolted to the motor face for support. Seems solid but I haven't put it into use yet.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=323148&postcount=52


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

major said:


> Hi Ice,
> 
> From the sounds of it, I'd say it likely could do well in a smaller MC with your modest performance goals. You can run a compound motor from a controller meant for series motors. I do in my garden tractor. It is not the best way to control the compound motor, but it works. I think your bigger problem would be the shaft coupling.
> 
> ...


Hello,
thank you for your prompt response. Can you write a configuration for the motorcycle that i described above (motor, controller, battery capacity ... ).

Thanks in advance,
Ice.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> Can you write a configuration for the motorcycle that i described above (motor, controller, battery capacity ... ).


I try not to do that. Take a look in the DIY garage and the EValbum. You can find examples close to your project. Post up a build thread and you'll likely get feedback.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

major said:


> Hi Ice,
> 
> From the sounds of it, I'd say it likely could do well in a smaller MC with your modest performance goals. You can run a compound motor from a controller meant for series motors. I do in my garden tractor. It is not the best way to control the compound motor, but it works. I think your bigger problem would be the shaft coupling.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by a smaller MC ?

I'm planning on buying a 50cc kawasaki but its a racing motor with shifting gears. It has enough space in it for the motor and the lead batteries but i'm worried about the motor, cuz some of the posts i've been reading say that this forklift pump motor i have isn't good for an EV, why is that ? 

P.S. i will post pictures from the motor when i get back from work.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> What do you mean by a smaller MC ?


I guess less than maybe 200 kg bike weight. 



> cuz some of the posts i've been reading say that this forklift pump motor i have isn't good for an EV, why is that ?


It is not clear what motor it is. Could be too small for larger EV or the fact that this compound motor is not suitable for that particular EV voltage or the shaft configuration. Post up the referenced post number.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

Hello major,
i have taken some pics from the motor so maybe now you can explain to me if i have made a bad decision by buying this motor :


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> Hello major,
> i have taken some pics from the motor so maybe now you can explain to me if i have made a bad decision by buying this motor :


I think you'll have a difficult time mechanically coupling the shaft. The motor itself looks robust. It could do well on even a larger MC probably. Is it correct rotation for you? Like I said, you can use a controller for series motors on a compound motor like this. It doesn't work as well as a series motor would due to the fact that at low speed (and therefore low voltage out of the controller) the shunt field is weak causing lower torque per ampere than an equivalent series winding. If you're clever you can pull out the shunt coil leads and separately excite the shunt field for higher starting torque. The good news about compound motors is that they have a defined no-load RPM so you don't have to worry about the motor overspeeding to destruction if you break a chain like which can happen with series motors.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

There are a lot of people in my country that can fix the problem with the female shaft, so i'm not really concearned about that i just wanted to be asured that this motor can be used in a motorcycle conversion. Thanks for the straight answer major, you rock . I just didn't understand the rotation part and the part about the shunt field. Can you explain what you wanted to say with more detail ? Also my town is set on two neighboring hills, they are not that steep but still it will need to carry two passengers with a sum total weight of 140 kg on a 20% incline hill, can i get these characteristics with this motor ? 

P.S. i saw a post about the S4 25% characteristic of this types of motors stating that it couldn't run for more than 15 min, maybe i didn't understood the post ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That motor only rotates in one direction, is that direction the correct one for your setup?


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

Can you tell from the motor's plate what direction it turns ?

Or if not can anyone tell me how to change the rotating direction of the motor ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> Can you tell from the motor's plate what direction it turns ?


Doesn't look like it is indicated on the nameplate, but I don't read Greek  Just hook a 12V battery to it and see for yourself.



icecarev said:


> Or if not can anyone tell me how to change the rotating direction of the motor ?


It ain't easy  But can be done from the inside of the motor. Must reverse the polarity of the armature only.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> P.S. i saw a post about the S4 25% characteristic of this types of motors stating that it couldn't run for more than 15 min, maybe i didn't understood the post ?


I'm not a 100% sure about the S4 rating and don't want to look it up, so in general......A 15 minute rating means you can run the motor at rated load (6.5 kW in your case) for 15 minutes starting with a ambient temperature motor and reach rated temperature at the end of the 15 minute duration. You can run less load for longer duration and higher load for shorter duration.




icecarev said:


> Also my town is set on two neighboring hills, they are not that steep but still it will need to carry two passengers with a sum total weight of 140 kg on a 20% incline hill, can i get these characteristics with this motor ?


20% isn't steep  Fortunately there is a reduction ratio using the chain on motorcycles. As you increase the ratio you slow the vehicle speed but increase the wheel torque. Theoretically you can increase the ratio to a very low speed and climb straight up  So the motor will be able to push up the hill, but the speed is the question.

I am not going to do all your homework, but you can if you want, calculate this from the equations found in the wiki or elsewhere in books or on the web. Or just build the darn thing with a high ratio and room to adjust it


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks a lot for your answers. I appreciate the help.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

One more question. Does a compound motor controller exist and if it does can some one post some links to one of them ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> One more question. Does a compound motor controller exist and if it does can some one post some links to one of them ?


I've never seen one for sale. In the forklift application it runs a pump a constant speed so is brought on with a contactor.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

major said:


> I've never seen one for sale. In the forklift application it runs a pump a constant speed so is brought on with a contactor.


So i guess i have to go with what you said and get a series wound controller .

Hey major can i use any type of lead acid gel battery for my motorcycle or is there some kind that i can't use ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> Hey major can i use any type of lead acid gel battery for my motorcycle or is there some kind that i can't use ?


If you must use Pb, I like AGM. Flooded are cheapest and most forgiving for novice but be careful not to spill if you tip the bike. Gels ???? Might be o.k.


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## icecarev (Oct 1, 2012)

I asked one of the sales men about a GEL battery and he said that they were only for starting a car and that i wouldn't have much use for them as a power supply. Is this true are there batteries that i can't use for an EV motorcycle ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

icecarev said:


> I asked one of the sales men about a GEL battery and he said that they were only for starting a car and that i wouldn't have much use for them as a power supply. Is this true are there batteries that i can't use for an EV motorcycle ?


Should port this over to the battery sub-forum


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## lx2gt (Oct 9, 2012)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-HP-108V-...328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c07e5098
how does this look? i have a old mercedes i want to convert but don't really know the first thing on what to look for, i have access to a ton of car batteries so i can save there!!


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

major said:


> Doesn't look like it is indicated on the nameplate, but I don't read Greek  Just hook a 12V battery to it and see for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> It ain't easy  But can be done from the inside of the motor. Must reverse the polarity of the armature only.


Or the field coils, if you can get access to them the field coils (sometimes called the frame coils) are usually easier to swap as they will be longer lengths of wire. But either is good as long as you only swap one set as Major said.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

lx2gt said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-HP-108V-...328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c07e5098
> how does this look? i have a old mercedes i want to convert but don't really know the first thing on what to look for, i have access to a ton of car batteries so i can save there!!


It is the old aircraft generator. Although these can be made to work, it is probably not a good choice for you. You will have difficulty with the control (shunt) and likely not near the torque and power you'll want. Look for a series wound motor


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## jkalup (Oct 10, 2012)

Just following along, and found this motor. I know it has been dicussed before, but I do not recall the outcome.

Yale #7300410-01
Motor is 9.5 inches in diameter. Series wound. Designed to run on 36-48 volts

I think the original thread started on page 62.

Also, thank you guys very much!! this is incredible support.

Best Regards,
Josef


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## Pbk (Jun 3, 2012)

Major
Can you take a peek at post 1650 and let me know what you think about the denso. I have some other options as well. Came across a 9inchDC advance that's like new but has a damaged key way. Trying to keep the best one and maybe sell off the other. Kid is on me to start planing more he has 2 years and wants the car ready to go on the 16 birthday. Think he's set on me finding a red Porsche 944

I also have giant 9kw/7kw. 48/36v 1100/750rpm GE classH 60min 250 amp 
May have to plan a second project for that beast K5 blazer or bronco?
Thanks 
Philip


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Pbk said:


> hi guys this is the motor I got from a toyota forklift, it looks almost new and is a Denso 36v 3.3 kW 60 min. it has four brushes about 1/2 inch by 1 and 1/2 inch and four posts marked E A F B. shaft is splined with 21 high spots, the comutartor has 69 bars. and it has a mount for a brake on the fan side. I have the brake its got a hydraulic and mechanical action. I havent found any more info on it yet but here are some pics. hope to find a Austin mini to put it in but may settle on bmw E30 if you think it will push it.
> goals are Max 45 MPH and 15 mile range maybe less if they let me plug it into the parkinglot outlet at work.


Looks pretty nice. Clean inside. Not much use. No thru ventilation. Likely o.k. for application you describe. Got to go.


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## dolinick (Feb 4, 2009)

I have a heavy forklift motor. It was in one of those stand-up 24 volt type fork lifts. It ran a hydraulic pump I believe. I can barely carry it.

Ok, I took some photos. It is a Hyster. I put it on my wife's bathroom scale and it weighed 105.4 pounds.

I will upload the photos.

I am thinking about using this motor in a Chevette or F100 or Chevy Nova project.

Thanks,

Daniel

update: Here are photos and video. I connected a 12 volt car battery and the motor ran after I spun it a little. I only let it run a few seconds.


















Here are two other motors I have.









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5jpis-tVg&feature=youtu.be


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dolinick said:


> I have a heavy forklift motor. It was in one of those stand-up 24 volt type fork lifts. It ran a hydraulic pump I believe. I can barely carry it.
> 
> Ok, I took some photos. It is a Hyster. I put it on my wife's bathroom scale and it weighed 105.4 pounds.
> 
> ...


That video was painful to watch. It appears to be an old Prestolite 7 inch diameter series wound lift pump motor, probably an MGS type since you said it was from a 24 volt truck. It is a shame you abuse it like that. Obviously something is binding, like, the loose pump. The arcs from the brushes and 10 to 20 RPM rotation might be a clue. That motor may have served its intended purpose very well in the forklift unserviced for like 30 or 40 years. But now it needs a little TLC. Even after that, it would not be a wise choice for an EVcar or truck for a number of reasons which I have explained numerous times on the thread w/r/t pump motors.

The other 2 motors appear too small for EV cars.

Regards,

major


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## dolinick (Feb 4, 2009)

major said:


> That video was painful to watch. It appears to be an old Prestolite 7 inch diameter series wound lift pump motor, probably an MGS type since you said it was from a 24 volt truck. It is a shame you abuse it like that. Obviously something is binding, like, the loose pump. The arcs from the brushes and 10 to 20 RPM rotation might be a clue. That motor may have served its intended purpose very well in the forklift unserviced for like 30 or 40 years. But now it needs a little TLC. Even after that, it would not be a wise choice for an EVcar or truck for a number of reasons which I have explained numerous times on the thread w/r/t pump motors.
> 
> The other 2 motors appear too small for EV cars.
> 
> ...


That was the only time I ever ran the motor. Thanks for the information. I need to do my research.


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## worsel (Dec 7, 2012)

Hello people
I am researching my first EV conversion.
I have put some pics here of a forklift motor that is for sale locally.
Is this usefull for a 2000lb vehicle?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

worsel said:


> Hello people
> I am researching my first EV conversion.
> I have put some pics here of a forklift motor that is for sale locally.
> Is this usefull for a 2000lb vehicle?
> ...


Hi wor,

Looks pretty nice. Hard to tell scale from the photo. Maybe about 7 inch diameter. Might do a 1 ton car with transmission. Would be no hot rod. Likely need higher than nameplate voltage. Plus side: looks like a long core. Minus side: looks like a short comm. 

major


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

idslayer said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I just purchased a Datsun SYBO2L28V forklift as scrap. No forks and like everything else, batteries not included. At the heart of the beast s a DC model MT4100, 10 kwh Hitachi motor. That's the propulsion motor. I have some pics I will share, but it looks like I will need to upload them to another site, 1st, to link to.
> 
> ...


I might have a chance to get a forklift with these motors, not sure if the price will be reasonable though. I didn't really see a lot of response on whether this would be a good motor choice or not. They don't seem too common but in another post I found they have a 52 bar com. Could I expect it to perform similar to a Warp 11 for specs? 10kw at 48v is 208amps continuous. Is it reasonable to expect the same current rating at 144v? Would it be just way to heavy to be practical in a smaller car conversion? Any thoughts on what it should be worth? Thanks for any advice you may have.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> I might have a chance to get a forklift with these motors, not sure if the price will be reasonable though. I didn't really see a lot of response on whether this would be a good motor choice or not. They don't seem too common but in another post I found they have a 52 bar com. Could I expect it to perform similar to a Warp 11 for specs? 10kw at 48v is 208amps continuous. Is it reasonable to expect the same current rating at 144v? Would it be just way to heavy to be practical in a smaller car conversion? Any thoughts on what it should be worth? Thanks for any advice you may have.


Hi pud,

I don't know what this motor looks like, but Hitachi makes decent machines. 52 bar comm is unusual....it is an odd number most times. Perform similar to Warp11? Maybe. Is it about that size? Unsure of the RPM. Continuous ratings depend more on the power; short term (like 10 second to 5 minutes) depend more on current. So don't expect to triple the continuous power rating with increasing voltage. As to suitability and worth, those are your calls.

Regards,

major


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

worsel said:


> Hello people
> I am researching my first EV conversion.
> I have put some pics here of a forklift motor that is for sale locally.
> Is this usefull for a 2000lb vehicle?
> ...



This is a drive motor out of a 3 wheel electric forklift

Probably an N01L15



Unfortunately this is a small forklift and the it takes TWO of these motors ( one for each drive wheel )

Its a little big for a golf cart and just about right for a cycle or high performance cart

I doubt it would get a car above 40mph


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

So far only made it to page 68 of this monster thread. Sorry for being another "I got this motor, is it any good for an EV" guys but here's the situation.

Hello, my name is David and I'm new to this stuff but been wanting to build an EV for awhile. I have an old Nissan Pulsar I blew up years ago (been sitting so long I forget the year, 87 or 88) and I just picked up a couple of forklift motors.

The problem, other than not knowing what I'm doing, is I can't find any info online on either motor. They came off a Drexel forklift. One is the drive motor and the other for the hydraulics. I believe they are GE motors but can't find them on their website. Probably really old models. I think they're 48v.

9" dia
15" long
4 posts S1&S2, A1&A2
Dual shaft 2" & 3"
P/N 37094
Model #5BT1344B159
(one website that listed this 5BT# said GE ARM 49 BAR)

same size
2 posts S2 & A1
1" shaft
P/N 25493
Model #5BT1344B152
P88-1333 stamped on casing

I would like to use the first one since I can drive the power steering off the second shaft. This should be a good choice for a 2800 lb car. Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Robocar said:


> So far only made it to page 68 of this monster thread. Sorry for being another "I got this motor, is it any good for an EV" guys but here's the situation.
> 
> Hello, my name is David and I'm new to this stuff but been wanting to build an EV for awhile. I have an old Nissan Pulsar I blew up years ago (been sitting so long I forget the year, 87 or 88) and I just picked up a couple of forklift motors.
> 
> ...


Hi Robo, 
Happy New Year.
The first one sounds pretty good to me, is there any information on the name plate of either motors?

Perhaps you could post a couple of pictures.
Regards John


----------



## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Part of the problem is no info on the motors. I even took them around back and roughed them up a bit and they still won't talk.

Can't find a good camera but here's what it looks like. The tag just has part number, model number and serial number. I did see 934DC stamped on it whatever that means.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Robocar said:


> Part of the problem is no info on the motors. I even took them around back and roughed them up a bit and they still won't talk.
> 
> Can't find a good camera but here's what it looks like. The tag just has part number, model number and serial number. I did see 934DC stamped on it whatever that means.


Hi Robocar.
I would be inclined to spin them up on 12v (no more than 12v at this point) to see just what they do. Listen to the bearings... If you do take the brushes out make sure you know which way to replace them and *do not* touch the copper segments underneath them. Just blow them out with an airline if needs be.

On the first one you will need to connect one of the S terminals to one of the A terminals then connect a 12v battery to the remaining terminals. If you need to reverse the motor just change over the A terminals.

In the case of the other motor it seems the two windings are referenced to the body of the motor so just connect the battery to the two terminals you have. But if they are connected to the body you probably wont want to use that one unless you can dig the connector out that connect to the body and isolate them. Best to stick with the first one.

They both look good and strong to me, twin brushes and quite a long armature with good ventilation.
I would say you have an ideal motor (No 1 with the twin shafts) you will probably need to run it on at least 96v maybe up to 144v.
Seeing as the motor is the forklift drive motor it is probably rated for continuous use hence the cooling holes. Are there holes in the end plate where the brushes are?

Generally I think they are a good find and one I would be happy to use.

Perhaps Major would like to comment, he is the font of all things that rotate......


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

johnsiddle said:


> In the case of the other motor it seems the two windings are referenced to the body


Just this  The armature to field connection is made internal since it is unidirectional but unlikely referenced to body, or as we say, grounded.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

major said:


> Just this  The armature to field connection is made internal since it is unidirectional but unlikely referenced to body, or as we say, grounded.


You are probably correct but it is easily checked with a meter just in case.
I tried not to use the word grounded in case the lad got confused.

I still think the first one (the fork lift drive motor is the best so that he can set the direction he needs) and and use the second drive shaft for his steering pump and maybe a vacuum pump as well for his brakes.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Sorry for the misunderstanding but all pics are the same motor, the drive motor. Only thing I did was remove the grill type covers that were aound the front and back openings. I did hit it with 12v for a few seconds to make sure it spins ok and it's smooth as silk. Just needs some cleaning up. It mounted vertically and must have sat in water. 

The other motor has the casing extended around the shaft (hard to explain) I guess used to mount to whatever it attached to. Lovejoy connector on shaft. Camera died so no pics.

This is the other motor. You can see the extended casing with a bit of orange (the lovejoy) inside it.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

johnsiddle said:


> You are probably correct but it is easily checked with a meter just in case.
> I tried not to use the word grounded in case the lad got confused.


It's been over 25 years but I took basic electronics in College before I got into computer so I shouldn't confuse too easily. But I will let you know when that happens with a HUH???


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Robocar said:


> So far only made it to page 68 of this monster thread. Sorry for being another "I got this motor, is it any good for an EV" guys but here's the situation.
> 
> Hello, my name is David and I'm new to this stuff but been wanting to build an EV for awhile. I have an old Nissan Pulsar I blew up years ago (been sitting so long I forget the year, 87 or 88) and I just picked up a couple of forklift motors.
> 
> ...



1.Yes they are GE , the older Drexels use nothing else.

2. Drexel put their own number on it, the number wont cross to anything.

3. If you contact a forklift dealer or a DC motor rebuild shop they can get parts for the motor

4. They are not grounded , if they are ,clean the brush holders with WD-40 and an air gun

5.the pump motor , Drexel often turned the brush holders a few degrees to limit RPM , so i wouldn't use it as a drive motor
ghs

6. The traction motor (the one with two shafts) is rated for 36/48 volts
the small shaft was for a parking brake, the large shaft went straight into the differential.

Since you describe the pump motor as being mounted vertically I believe the Drexel was a "turret truck" (also called a "Swing Mast )

That forklift weighs about 14,000 pounds 

If I'm right ,you have a 30kw ( 40 hp ) motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Do not put oil on or near brushes or commutator.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Deffo go for the drive motor, you may be able to reset the brushes to a more normal position but in anycase you may have to move them to reduce sparking and as Major says nothing on the commutator brushes especially oil...... 

Best of luck, it looks exciting...


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Woohoo electric sportscar for me! Now I need to find some high end batteries hiding under a rock.

I might just go for a rebuild to freshen it up along with the advance if it's a good motor. Seems 10 degrees is the recommended advance?

I'm thinking of making it a 2-seater and use the space for batteries. I'd like to get 50-60mph with 40-50 range. I'll sacrifice top end speed for more range. Or maybe a fancy configuration to change wiring on a bank from serial to parallel quick and easy. Anybody try something like that yet?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Robocar said:


> . Or maybe a fancy configuration to change wiring on a bank from serial to parallel quick and easy. Anybody try something like that yet?


No need. A controller takes your available battery power and delivers the amount requested up to the full pack voltage.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Ziggythewiz said:


> No need. A controller takes your available battery power and delivers the amount requested up to the full pack voltage.


While that might be true that's not what I'm after. This is simplifying but voltage gives you speed and amps give you range. Consider 2 banks of 6 12v batteries in parallel. You're running 72v with the second bank providing additional amps extending the range. Now if I want to run down to the local car show to show off the power of electric cars I would reconfig the second bank to be in series to the first giving me 144v to smoke the tires but limited range.

I'm hoping to fit either 6 or 8 batteries in series under the hood with 2 more banks in the back for range. I'll have to do the math for the best configuration and the physical measurements to see if that many batteries can be squeezed into the car as well as max weight and weight distribution. Maybe a scheme for some type of overdrive or the equivalent of kicking in the secondaries like the old carbs. Definitely need a blower (fan) to come online for high speeds.

Or I might just be dreaming.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Same energy (2AH*V=AH*2V) = same range. With higher voltage you can push more amps at higher speed, so better performance.

You'll also need the fan more at lower speed than high speed for most motors (built-in fans provide more cooling at high RPM), especially if you go lower voltage, which requires more amps, which is where the heat comes from.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Robocar said:


> While that might be true that's not what I'm after. This is simplifying but voltage gives you speed and amps give you range. Consider 2 banks of 6 12v batteries in parallel. You're running 72v with the second bank providing additional amps extending the range. Now if I want to run down to the local car show to show off the power of electric cars I would reconfig the second bank to be in series to the first giving me 144v to smoke the tires but limited range.
> 
> I'm hoping to fit either 6 or 8 batteries in series under the hood with 2 more banks in the back for range. I'll have to do the math for the best configuration and the physical measurements to see if that many batteries can be squeezed into the car as well as max weight and weight distribution. Maybe a scheme for some type of overdrive or the equivalent of kicking in the secondaries like the old carbs. Definitely need a blower (fan) to come online for high speeds.
> 
> Or I might just be dreaming.


Dont forget you will be switching up to 300amps+ which if not done correctly could blow your batteries out of the car. Plus your controller will have to seemlessly handle being run at 72v and 144v and a whole range of high currents.

I would concentrate on getting a working car at a given voltage first then maybe consider some major mods later when you have lots of experience you will find a plenty of problems to sort during your initial build .... Learn to walk before trying to run


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Ziggythewiz
Not exactly - "With parallel cells, the current handling and runtime increases while voltage stays the same."

Are you suggesting 2 batteries in parallel will not last longer than 1 battery?

johnsiddle
Yep, it's all a learning experience. I would settle for an unuseable electric car as long as it is working and complete, then upgrade from there. I'll most likely get it up and running at 48v with the old forklift controller and some old car batteries just to get the mechanics worked out.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

2 batteries in parallel will not last longer than two batteries in series doing the same job through a controller.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

major said:


> Do not put oil on or near brushes or commutator.


WD-40 is a stoddard solvent with a dash of food grade mineral oil

It wont soften the insulation and has been used to clean carbon dust out of electric motors for decades


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Ziggythewiz said:


> 2 batteries in parallel will not last longer than two batteries in series doing the same job through a controller.


That may be true but for a given voltage a parallel bank WILL increase runtime thereby increasing range.

I understand what your saying but it comes across like a parallel bank WON'T increase range.

A 1Ah battery provides 1Ah, 2 in parallel provide 2Ah (current adds in parallel). Since 2 is greater than 1 it should take twice as long (theoretically) to exhaust the batteries

Tdischarge = Amp-Hour capacity/ Constant Discharge Current
Tdischarge = 1Ah/1Ah = 1
Tdischarge = 2Ah/1Ah = 2

2 amps per hour = 1 amp for 2 hours. If my motor draws 1 amp per hour then 1 battery will last 1 hour but 2 batteries in parallel will last 2 hours.

I guess it's only an issue when you're running near max voltage. By then there's probably no more battery room left or you're exceeding the max safe weight limit.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

And since we took a slight detour into batteries you guys might find this read interesting.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> WD-40 is a stoddard solvent with a dash of food grade mineral oil
> 
> It wont soften the insulation and has been used to clean carbon dust out of electric motors for decades


Any oil, even that which comes from human skin, touching the commutator surface is detrimental to the proper filming action and can cause serious trouble. One should also take care to make sure there is no oil mist in compressed air used to blow the motor out.

Don't use any oil near the comm or brushes. If that area of the motor is contaminated with any oil product, it needs a proper washing and drying. The insulation may not be adversely affected, but the commutator will suffer with oil.



> An oil film on a commutator is detrimental to good brush performance partly because it may tend to raise the contact drop to too high a value.


 From: Carbon Brushes for Electrical Equipment  July 1966, K. F. Lutz, Union Carbide Corporation, page 37.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Anyhow, recommendations?

If this motor is 36v/48v rated what do you think I can run it at? And is 10 degree advance a good idea across all voltages or 'X' degrees for every 'X' number of volts beyond rating?

I'm hoping to get at least 18 batteries into the car eventually.


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

Robocar,

I recall reading that you had made it through to about page 68 in this thread. It took me a couple of weeks to make it through when I first found this site. It was well worth it though.

If I recall correctly, you only want to advance it 7-10 degrees. I think the other recommendation is no more than about 120 volts (maybe 144) on a 48 volt motor.

Also, you should listen to Ziggy. A PWM controller works with DC very much like a transformer does with AC. Higher voltage (at less amps) at the battery side of the controller can equal lower voltage at higher amps to the motor. You will not have further range with the batteries in parallel than in series. As a matter of fact, I could ague the opposite (to some small amount) since the higher voltage will mean lower amps and have less line loss on the cables between the batteries and controller.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok so, not to keep pushing the parallel issue but, if I max out at 120v that's 10 12v batteries. Would adding another 10 in a parallel bank not be worth the added weight?

And I'll probably get the car up and running with the forklift controller at 36 or 48v until I can get a good controller and enough batteries. Should I wait until then to advance the motor or will it work ok advanced 10 degrees at 48v?

I'd like to get everything done before dropping the motor in so I don't have to pull it back out for the voltage upgrade.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> WD-40 is a stoddard solvent with a dash of food grade mineral oil
> 
> It wont soften the insulation and has been used to clean carbon dust out of electric motors for decades


Hey EFGuy,

Below are some snips I copied and pasted from a google search. And if you and your employer use oil of any type on DC motors, I suggest you change your practice. If you don't believe me, contact an expert in the field like an engineer from a brush manufacturer. Tom Brunka from Helwig Carbon comes to mind. Tell him I sent you 

major



> Once oil finds its way to the commutator, the electrical current passing between the brush and commutator will vaporize the lubricant and glaze the brush surface. This will increase the resistance between the commutator and the brush. This will result in higher voltages needed to operate the train and greatly increase the arching between the brush and commutator. The end result is a damaged commutator and brushes. Always lubricate the train motor and gears with a quality oil such as 3 in 1 oil and use very little. Do not use WD-40!





> Trouble is sometimes experienced from the break down of mica insulation between segments. Burnouts are commonly caused by allowing the mica to become oil soaked.





> If the surface speed is too slow, or a contaminant, such as oil, is present, the particles will be forced into the slots until the slots are packed with the material. Since the material is conductive, the effect of this packing is to short the bars together, creating one or more shorted coils. This adversely affects motor performance and life. To avoid this situation, keep oils away from the commutator by using slingers and anti-wetting agents.





> *OILS AND HYDROCARBONS*
> Commutators, slip rings and carbon brushes can get contaminated by oils and fats from
> various origins:
> &#56256;&#56442; Leaks from a bearing which is not properly sealed
> ...





> *Physical and chemical parameters (environment)*
> _Oil_ or other contaminants in the atmosphere. c. Improper brush *...*





> The commutator should be kept clean and allowed to assume a glaze while running. Oil should not be used on commutators, as it chars under the brushes, forming a film between commutator bars which may cause a short-circuit.





> Too much lubrication is nearly as bad as not enough. Too much lubricant will saturate wiring, insulating material and attract dirt and dust. All of these will greatly shorten the life of your train's electrical components and harm performance. The greatest damage is usually done to the motor bearings, commutator and the brushes. Once oil finds its way to the commutator, the electrical current passing between the brush and commutator will vaporize the lubricant and glaze the brush surface. This will increase the resistance between the commutator and the brush. This will result in higher voltages needed to operate the train and greatly increase the arching between the brush and commutator. The end result is a damaged commutator and brushes. Always lubricate the train motor and gears with a quality oil such as 3 in 1 oil and use very little. Do not use WD-40!


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

So what are the drawbacks to using the pump motor for an EV? I'll have to find some project to use the motor. Maybe a massive windmill to power my house or an off road buggy or maybe even a hovercraft or something.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Robocar said:


> So what are the drawbacks to using the pump motor for an EV?


Hi Rob,

Nothing wrong with the basic pump motor for an EV. In fact the core design for the pump motor is similar to the forklift traction motor; the same in a few cases. The specific pump motor may have some attributes ill suited for the EV application. You don't show enough detail about yours. Generally pump motors are unidirectional. Is it correct for your EV? Some pump motors are compound wound and therefore difficult to mate with a traction controller. Usually the biggest drawback is the shaft. Often pump motors use a female spline to mate with a pump. The one you have appears to have a short keyed shaft for the Lovejoy. Enough for you???? The DEH has the pump flange and may present difficulty mounting to a tranny adapter.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since most motors seem to have a directional angle on the brushes aren't all motors really biased for a single direction, even if you can theoretically reverse them?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Since most motors seem to have a directional angle on the brushes aren't all motors really biased for a single direction, even if you can theoretically reverse them?


Nope. That angle (departure from radial) of the brush has nothing to do with direction of rotation.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Looks like the pump flange can be removed and you're right the shaft is short. I'm just wondering what to do with the pump motor, sell it or find another project to use it. I think someone back in the thread said something about drive motors have a continous rating while pump motors aren't meant for continous running.

Or maybe the guys down at Longwood Electric will take it in trade for cleaning up and advancing the drive motor for me. What's a ballpark price on rebuilding a motor like the drive motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Nope. That angle (departure from radial) of the brush has nothing to do with direction of rotation.


That's in contrast with the single direction motors I've seen, which always have the brush angled the same way in relation to rotation, and what the guy from Hellwig said, that you don't want the comm rotating into the leading sharp edge of an angled brush. Is he wrong?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ....and what the guy from Hellwig said, that you don't want the comm rotating into the leading sharp edge of an angled brush. Is he wrong?


I would say so  Motor manufactures routinely design this angle into their standard brush gear and use it for CW, CCW and reversible motors. A properly finished commutator will not bother a slightly sharper leading edge on the brush.



JRP3 said:


> That's in contrast with the single direction motors I've seen, which always have the brush angled the same way in relation to rotation,....


Please show me an example of a motor manufacture who offers a standard DC motor in a CW and a CCW configuration who uses a different (mirror image) brush rig for the two  

And how do you explain the use of angled brushes in forklift traction motors where you have a duty cycle of 50% CW and 50% CCW?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Since most motors seem to have a directional angle on the brushes aren't all motors really biased for a single direction, even if you can theoretically reverse them?


No - the brushes are only angled to increase the net surface area of the brush to commutator interface without requiring a physically larger brush. It's mostly economics at work here, then.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> And how do you explain the use of angled brushes in forklift traction motors where you have a duty cycle of 50% CW and 50% CCW?


Clearly they don't know what they are doing.  I guess you can't believe everything you hear on EVTV


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I guess you can't believe everything you hear on EVTV


But I thought electricity was so expensive in California because they use so little compared to the sheep herders in Podunk, USA


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Since most motors seem to have a directional angle on the brushes aren't all motors really biased for a single direction, even if you can theoretically reverse them?



the "slant" on the brush is to keep the brush from rocking back and forth 

Imagine a bench grinder , if you go straight in with a piece of metal it will jerk around a lot ...but if you come in at a 45 degree angle in EITHER direction its easy to hold it steady.

The term " brush angle" is actually used to describe the difference between the electrical neutral plane and the actual brush location .

Under heavy loads the magnetic field generated by the stator is "pushed back" by the field of the armature ...basically the magnetic field twists opposite the direction of the armature 

To compensate for this, manufacturers will often "time the brushes" advancing them slightly. The downside is you wind up with a motor that only runs well in ONE direction.

In forkilifts , because they have to operate equally well in both directions the brushes on the drive motors are set dead center.

If a pump motor is hooked up to a pump with a low RPM rating ,they will often retard the brush timing to limit RPM of the motor to protect the pump.



Now on most GE drive motors its real easy to tell if the brush timing is advanced , retarded, or neutral since they turn THE ENTIRE ENDBELL

If the terminals for the field are in line with, or have the same center as, the terminals for the armature its neutral

If they appear to be offset from each other its either advanced or retarded depending on the direction the motor is turning


Since he has two motors the same size but different applications I should point out that drive motors are rated at continuous duty and pump motors are USUALLY rated at intermittent duty.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> the "slant" on the brush is to keep the brush from rocking back and forth


This is true.



Electric Forklift Guy said:


> If a pump motor is hooked up to a pump with a low RPM rating ,they will often retard the brush timing to limit RPM of the motor to protect the pump.


This is not. I don't know to whom you refer as "they", but certainly anyone who knows what they are doing would not retard brush timing to slow the motor. If in fact it did slow the motor, all the decrease in RPM would translate directly into increase loss. So you would trade speed for heat. Result would be a failed motor.

Motors with retarded brushes are terrible at commutation. This is a big problem for EV converters wanting direct drive using motors with advanced brushes. The motor sparks like crazy when reversed. It is a big reason a lot of guys keep the transmission.....for reverse gear.


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Well bad news for me, the guy I got the motors from dug through his stuff and doesn't have the controller. He didn't really know what he was doing but thought the motors would be good for an EV so he saved the throttle hardware and motors only. He didn't know about the controller.

I was hoping to use it with a few batteries just to get it running after mounting the motor until I have the money for a good one.

I'm looking now for a cheap 36v or 48v controller I can use once the motor is in place. I don't plan on really running the car until I get some good batteries and a higher voltage controller. Can I use one from an old golf cart?


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## Robocar (Jan 6, 2013)

Wow, somebody got upset. I'm totally wrong? Prove it.

And to avoid cluttering up this thread you can pm me with the details proving me wrong. Unless you want to stay hidden. So far everything I've found online, although nobody actually recommends this, backs up what I said. I believe you're just parroting something you heard or read instead of looking at the basic electronics.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Robocar said:


> Wow, somebody got upset. I'm totally wrong? Prove it.
> 
> And to avoid cluttering up this thread you can pm me with the details proving me wrong. Unless you want to stay hidden. So far everything I've found online, although nobody actually recommends this, backs up what I said. I believe you're just parroting something you heard or read instead of looking at the basic electronics.


There appears to be a little bit of forum trolling going on here

You actually brought up a good point about running in 72 volt versus running two parallel strings of 36 for YOUR motor

The motor you have was designed for use with a 1400 Amp hour battery ( 1400 isn't a typo )

About the largest Lead battery you can carry will be only 200 AH at 36v or 100 AH at 72

Because 100AH is horribly undersized for the motor , you will see a slightly larger voltage drop , per cell ,during acceleration than you would with a 36 volt 200 AH battery,but the trade off is the motor wont rev up as high with 36 volts as it would with 72 Volts.

The 36volt battery would only be SLIGHTLY better at "low speed" acceleration and wouldn't work at all for "high speed".

So what I would recommend is the following

1. Get a DC controller.
( Its a shame the original is gone, I would have loved to walk you through setting up an EV-100 )

2. Figure out what RPM the motor needs to do in order to hit the speed you want with your gear ratio

3. For that motor 12volts = 400rpm, roughly ( I strongly suggest you double check me on this one )


4. Cram the largest battery you can in the car.


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

Maybe I can get some opinions on here about this motor I want to use for a fiat 500 weight about 900 to 1000 pounds would this motor be enough?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Snakub said:


> Maybe I can get some opinions on here about this motor I want to use for a fiat 500 weight about 900 to 1000 pounds would this motor be enough?


It looks quite a good motor to me, I am guessing it is about 7ins dia. Can not see how many brush sets or what the name plate says.

The Fiat 500 is a pretty light car, I think the main problem will be connecting to the splined shaft unless you have some gear that fits it, it doesn't look very large either in diameter nor length.

A few more details required I think..
Regards John


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

major said:


> Hey EFGuy,
> 
> Below are some snips I copied and pasted from a google search. And if you and your employer use oil of any type on DC motors, I suggest you change your practice. If you don't believe me, contact an expert in the field like an engineer from a brush manufacturer. Tom Brunka from Helwig Carbon comes to mind. Tell him I sent you
> 
> major


Well posted....


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

I already have the gear its a 7/8 13 spline available from surplus center. It has a 47 bar count and it weighs about 50 lbs.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

Here's how I respond to "Forum Trolls"

1. WD-40 is a Stoddard Solvent , and stoddard solvent has been used to remove carbon build-up in motors and generators for as long as motors and generators have been around.

You do know the other method is to wash the motor with soap and water ? 

Now go google some articles about why its a bad idea to get electric motors wet and show everyone you still don't know the difference between repairing a grounded motor and maintaining a running one.


2. The guy you ridiculed for asking if there was an advantage to having two strings of 36 volt versus one string of 72 , was actually asking a very intelligent question ...your reply , however, was not intelligent.

Crown Forklifts actually had a 12/24 Volt unit that did the very thing he asked about that they sold for about 30 years

It ran in "24 volt series" mode on level ground and switched to "12 volt parallel" when you needed to climb a steep grade and this was done so that the unit could use small batteries and still climb ramps 


Here's some advice to the two of you 

When you try to make someone look stupid , you will usually succeed ....with yourself.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Crown Forklifts actually had a 12/24 Volt unit that did the very thing he asked about that they sold for about 30 years
> 
> It ran in "24 volt series" mode on level ground and switched to "12 volt parallel" when you needed to climb a steep grade and this was done so that the unit could use small batteries and still climb ramps


So what was the logic behind the old control method of series parallel switching batteries? Let's use the Crown example. Level travel laden was 24 V with 200 A and high speed. For the ramp, switch to parallel batteries and get 12 V and 400 A to the motor yielding lower speed but twice the torque for the grade while maintaining the 200 A per battery. This was a good method of control and used for many years until solid state motor controllers came along.

With the PWM motor controller on the 24 V Crown truck, battery switching becomes redundant. The motor controller limits battery current automatically. The controller allows full voltage to the motor and high speed travel at reasonable current like 200 A. When a grade or ramp is encountered, the motor load increases and the controller limits current. This current limit reduces the motor voltage to 12 V. By doing that, the motor current will be 400 A and the battery current is 200 A.

In both cases, the motor runs at 400 A and makes the torque for the ramp and the battery sees only 200 A.

Series parallel battery switching is redundant with the use of PWM motor controllers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> 1. WD-40 is a Stoddard Solvent .....





> *WD-40* is the trademark name of a penetrating oil





> The long-term active ingredient is a non-volatile, viscous oil which remains on the surface, providing lubrication and protection from moisture.[4] This is diluted with a volatile hydrocarbon to give a low viscosity fluid which can be sprayed and thus penetrate crevices. The volatile hydrocarbon then evaporates, *leaving the oil behind*.


Courtesy of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Snakub said:


> I already have the gear its a 7/8 13 spline available from surplus center. It has a 47 bar count and it weighs about 50 lbs.


That sounds good to me, given the low weight of the 5oo I would be more than happy to use it.

What does it say on the motor plate about the motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Here's how I respond to "Forum Trolls".....
> 
> Here's some advice to the two of you
> 
> When you try to make someone look stupid , you will usually succeed ....with yourself.


How did that work out for you? WD 40 is used to lubricate things, because it's an oil. You are saying it's a good idea to use an oil on surfaces that are trying to conduct electricity. Does that make any sense?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> .....method is to wash the motor with soap and water ?


I mentioned that.


major said:


> If that area of the motor is contaminated with any oil product, it needs a proper washing and drying.


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## asimor (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi all
I got my forklift motor as nameplate:










It installing in a Honda N600 with 1,200 lbs ?

Thanks!


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

asimor said:


> Hi all
> I got my forklift motor as nameplate:
> 
> 
> ...


It look like a pump motor to me....


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

albano said:


> It look like a pump motor to me....


I think you are right but with some additional forced cooling it should be ok given the car is fairly light..


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> How did that work out for you? WD 40 is used to lubricate things, because it's an oil. You are saying it's a good idea to use an oil on surfaces that are trying to conduct electricity. Does that make any sense?


Really ?

Seriously...you don't know the difference between a solvent and an oil?

Go get a chemistry book from the eight grade and read it.

WD-40 ( Water Displacement formula 40 )

Is 50% stoddard solvent and 15% food grade mineral oil ( the rest is inert or propellant )


Guess what the United States Navy has used to clean carbon dust and salt out of motors and generators for the last 120 years?

A mix of stoddard solvent and mineral oil

In fact , I personally used it ( 15 gallons worth )to clear a carbon ground out of a 1750KW generator on the USS Ranger ( CV-61 ) while in the middle of the Indian Ocean so my ship could go to Desert Storm.

This was done at the direction of the electrical engineer from General Electric.

I think he was more knowledgeable than wikipedia and google.

In fact , I believe he was even more credible than hobbyists on an electric car forum.




Sheesh.



I think I'm done with this site 

There's just too many self described " Electrical Engineers " who cant convert 30KW DC into 3 phase AC current

( Here's a hint : if you don't use the square root of 3 or the "pf" rating you're doing it wrong....)

There's just too much thats "half-right" or "all-wrong".


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Go get a chemistry book from the eight grade and read it.
> 
> WD-40 ( Water Displacement formula 40 )
> 
> Is 50% stoddard solvent and 15% food grade mineral *oil*


What part of *oil* is confusing you?


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

Anyone know what this motor might be out of and its capabilities?http://stlouis.craigslist.org/grd/3568080725.html
Oh and I just called the guy and its a female spline how would I ever adapt anything to that?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> {WD-40}Is 50% stoddard solvent and 15% food grade *mineral oil* ( the rest is inert or propellant )


And mineral oil is oil. 


> ..mineral oil is a liquid by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline and other petroleum-based products from crude oil.


from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil 

Why then do all my sources say not to put oil on the commutator? WD-40 is oil. Do not use it on the motor where it can get on the commutator. I have never seen and can not now find any reference to the use of WD-40 relating to DC commutator motors. Do you find it odd that it has never been documented in writing? 

Maybe you're wrong Mr. Electric Forklift Guy. You have been wrong about a few other electric motor comments which you have posted, like retarding brushes to slow down pump motors. Show me that in some reference, please.

edit:
Still looking for use of WD-40 on commutator motors and I found this which appears to be a Navy document: 

http://www.uiitraining.com/b51a/200/nstm300_4_6t.htm 

Title is: 


> *NAVAL SHIPS' TECHNICAL MANUAL
> S9086-KC-STM-010/CH-300R4
> TABLE 300-4-6. BRUSH PROBLEMS AND PROBABLE CAUSES*


Notice the numerous times it cites "Oil on commutator or oil mist in air" as the cause for the trouble.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Snakub said:


> Anyone know what this motor might be out of and its capabilities?http://stlouis.craigslist.org/grd/3568080725.html
> Oh and I just called the guy and its a female spline how would I ever adapt anything to that?


Too bad about the shaft. My friend Jim, the guy who started this thread, could press out the shaft and press in a newly machined shaft with a keyed extension. But he was very skilled. I doubt you'll find anyone else willing to attempt that. Other methods would involve making an adapter possibly using the shaft from the mating pump. But that is loaded with difficulty. Best just to forgetaboutit and look for a traction motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Here is a commutator condition resulting from oil contamination:










From: http://vssmb.blogspot.com/2011/12/how-to-re-wire-potted-motor-part-17.html


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> Really ?
> 
> Seriously...you don't know the difference between a solvent and an oil?
> 
> ...


The thing about the military is you don't have to pay for the replacement.
The manufacturer just wants to sell you another, in the short term like someone is shooting at you, you will cure the problem but six months later you have to replace it and uncle Sam or whoever gets to pay and it will be put down to battle fatigue.....


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I have a question about Prestolite motors. I have a line on a couple of motors from a 36v Yale. I already know they are a little small, but a couple of guys here have used motors here with the same model #. its's just the descriptions vary of what size and voltage the motor is. Do any of you know if the model number (in my case MVX-4003) is for a particular motor or a series/style of motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> Do any of you know if the model number (in my case MVX-4003) is for a particular motor or a series/style of motor?


Yes, the 3 letters define the type or winding configuration (number of comm bars, slots, turns per coil, etc.) and the 4 numbers define the mechanical design (shaft, mounting flange, etc.) for that particular type.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is that a sepex motor? http://www.evalbum.com/4473


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is that a sepex motor? http://www.evalbum.com/4473


It appears it may be this guy with a misprint on the number (4300 instead of 4003). http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ly-powering-sep-ex-two-controllers-81416.html


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

The motors I was looking at look just like Mechmans and have the same model number. On the ecomodder forum he says the motor is an MVX-4003. It's just that I have found posts here and on ecomodder that list the diameter ranging from 6.5" to 8" and mechman wasn't sure what voltage his motor was originally rated for. I didn't get a chance to measure these. If I can be sure that it is the same motor, then I have a pretty good idea of how it would perform if I were to try and use it. The only info on the data plate was the model number, class H, and 36volt. I know they are sepex. Would you think the 72volts and 450amps that Mechman is running is probably peak from that motor or could the armature voltage go higher? He says his gets pretty warm. From what I've read, am I right in assuming that the field should be down around 12-24volts?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> The motors I was looking at look just like Mechmans and have the same model number. On the ecomodder forum he says the motor is an MVX-4003. It's just that I have found posts here and on ecomodder that list the diameter ranging from 6.5" to 8" and mechman wasn't sure what voltage his motor was originally rated for. I didn't get a chance to measure these. If I can be sure that it is the same motor, then I have a pretty good idea of how it would perform if I were to try and use it. The only info on the data plate was the model number, class H, and 36volt. I know they are sepex. Would you think the 72volts and 450amps that Mechman is running is probably peak from that motor or could the armature voltage go higher? He says his gets pretty warm. From what I've read, am I right in assuming that the field should be down around 12-24volts?


The Prestolite standard sizes were (are?) 6.6 and 7.2 inch diameters. It looks like the 7.2 incher. Higher voltage on the armature may need a brush advance if she starts arcing. With a brush advance you'd need to avoid regen, reversing the motor or field weakening to a great degree or be real careful about it. And keep the field voltage about where mechman has it. You can force blow air through it for cooling.


----------



## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Thank you, that helps a lot. If I go ahead with this, I was thinking about possibly running the two motors in tandem with one controller. Other than the added complexity of coupling them together, is there any reason why it couldn't work?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> Thank you, that helps a lot. If I go ahead with this, I was thinking about possibly running the two motors in tandem with one controller. Other than the added complexity of coupling them together, is there any reason why it couldn't work?


And that coupling complexity goes for electrical as well as mechanical  Control of a pair of SexEx motors...........don't know.........good luck


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

major said:


> And that coupling complexity goes for electrical as well as mechanical


I highly value your expertise, so I need to ask. Why would running dual Sepex motors off the same controller be anymore electrically complex than running 
dual series motors? Wouldn't the controller see the combined resistances and current flow of the two motors as one big motor, just like in the dual series motors? Thanks.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> I highly value your expertise, so I need to ask. Why would running dual Sepex motors off the same controller be anymore electrically complex than running
> dual series motors? Wouldn't the controller see the combined resistances and current flow of the two motors as one big motor, just like in the dual series motors? Thanks.


Most don't run dual motors from a single controller. Most don't run SepEx. Never seen a dual SepEx on a controller. Look what mechman went thru for a controller. Just don't know

If you try it, I'd keep them in series. Seems to me to be far less chance for trouble with the control like current sharing and/or stability.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

major said:


> Most don't run dual motors from a single controller. Most don't run SepEx. Never seen a dual SepEx on a controller. Look what mechman went thru for a controller. Just don't know
> 
> If you try it, I'd keep them in series. Seems to me to be far less chance for trouble with the control like current sharing and/or stability.


I'm not sure that it really matters whether they're in series or Sepex, the motors are going to have slightly different characteristics. If they're slaved together so they they're forced to the same speed I don't think the differences will matter. If you're planning to run them separately (say one to each wheel) the control would become a fun and interesting problem because, unless the behavior of the motors and drive chain is identical (unlikely) you'd need two controllers and you'd need to control the speed rather than the current. (How the heck does that work with hub motors? - just ignore the differences and wear the tires?)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

green caveman said:


> I'm not sure that it really matters whether they're in series or Sepex, the motors are going to have slightly different characteristics. If they're slaved together so they they're forced to the same speed I don't think the differences will matter. If you're planning to run them separately (say one to each wheel) the control would become a fun and interesting problem because, unless the behavior of the motors and drive chain is identical (unlikely) you'd need two controllers and you'd need to control the speed rather than the current. (How the heck does that work with hub motors? - just ignore the differences and wear the tires?)


There's no problem in running multiple motors on separate wheels when they each have their own controller. Just use torque control. No problem. Puddleglum wants to couple the motors mechanically and run from a single controller. I've not seen that done with SepEX motors. Gets a bit off topic for this thread


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just wondering about this motor. Got it for 50 bucks today. Guy has 9 more ........


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

jackbauer said:


> Just wondering about this motor. Got it for 50 bucks today. Guy has 9 more ........


It looks a pretty impressive motor to me as long as you can get or make a coupling, has the guy got any gears that will fit the spline?

You should be able to pump some extra cooling in at the brush end if it gets a bit warm.

Its not too different to the milk float motor I have fitted in my volvo, similar size as well I think.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Just wondering about this motor. Got it for 50 bucks today. Guy has 9 more ........


Looks kool  About 9 inch diameter? Similar to a Warp9...maybe higher comm bar count for lower RPM. GE makes a darn good motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

johnsiddle said:


> ...as long as you can get or make a coupling, has the guy got any gears that will fit the spline?...


If it's a 25T x 1.625" shaft, as used on some 11 & 13" GE motors, there are PTO discs available that have that spline pattern in the hub - they're slip fit though. If you need a link I'll dig it up.





major said:


> ...maybe higher comm bar count for lower RPM...


Less comm bars equal higher RPM? AT the expense of torque/current handling capability, I assume, if so?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Less comm bars equal higher RPM?


At a given motor voltage and load, generally speaking for these types of armatures with similar size cores, yes.



> AT the expense of torque/current handling capability, I assume, if so?


Less comm bars would relate to lower torque per amp but higher current capacity.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> At a given motor voltage and load, generally speaking for these types of armatures with similar size cores, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Less comm bars would relate to lower torque per amp but higher current capacity.


Awesome info - thanks Major! I didn't know the RPM thing, and hadn't really thought about it; and had the current capacity part backwards. Makes sense though, now that I think about it.


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## grblaky (Feb 28, 2013)

Hello Roelhen,
Did you find out what you were looking for about this motor? I have the same motor, and Iam hoping you can help me out and tell me what current this motor needs. I have been in touch with various companies in China and they ask me what amps I need and the watts of the motor. Did you find out how many kwh is this motor and what batteries it needs?
If you would be so kind could you assist me with this motor?
In other words I need to know the max working current in amps and watts.
As you know, the label on the motor gives only the volts.
I anxiously await your reply.

Nikgr


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hey!

I also want to build an EV out of a forklift motor, and so I was looking for a suitable one. 

I attached 3 pictures of 3 different motors. 

The first one is rated 80V / 12kW
The second one is rated 48V / 4.5kW
The third one is rated 48V/ 8kW

For now, I don't have more infos about them. 
I think the first one should be a series wound motor, because of the 4 bolts, am I right?

I want to use that motor for a heavy car, I think about 3500lbs. I want to use about 180V, because I get a few 100Ah batteries cheap. They are rated at max. 2C ( but they should also do 2.5C fine I think ), so I have to go up with the voltage. 

Which one do you think fits best? I don't ned a drag racing machine  I drove a car with 20kW peak and 11kW continous with 2200lbs, and this was also enough. 

Thanks
Manuel


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> Hey!
> 
> I also want to build an EV out of a forklift motor, and so I was looking for a suitable one.
> 
> ...


Hi mani,

They all appear to be good candidates. All about 10 to 11 inch diameter??? And 4 terminal bolts could also be a separately excited (SepEx) motor. The 4 terminals indicate reversibility. But I think all 3 of the shown motors are series wound. I can offer more opinion if you post clear photos of the brush and commutator of each.

Regards,

major


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hi Major!

Thanks for your reply. I haven't more photos for now, but I hope I will get them soon.

Do you think a 80V motor would be better than a 48V for me? 
If I would use 180V system voltage I mean.

Thanks


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> Hi Major!
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I haven't more photos for now, but I hope I will get them soon.
> 
> ...


I cannot tell the differences in the motors to that degree from those photos. And 180V system doesn't mean 180V to the motor. You have the controller in there. Often times the 48V motors are similar to the Warp9 and 11 which tolerate up to 170V. You'll likely have to advance the reversible fork motors to run much over nameplate.


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hey!

Yes I know, that I have to advance the timings to do higher voltage.

I want to use the open revolt controller, because it can handle the high voltage, if I choose the right components. 

As my system voltage is 180V, the full charge voltage is about 240V, that's why I am not sure if the 48V would be suitable for my application.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> As my system voltage is 180V, the full charge voltage is about 240V, that's why I am not sure if the 48V would be suitable for my application.


Yes, but that is on the source side of the controller. On the motor or load side, the voltage can be, and most likely will be, lower. With any of these motors, what do you think the RPM and/or current would be with 240 or 180 volts applied to the motor terminals? I'll answer....too much 

The brush size and commutator bar count can indicate some attributes to help decide, plus give a look at the condition. It would also be helpful to know the size of the core, or at least overall frame dimensions, D & L.


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hey!

Yes I know that the voltage is not the same. But if I don't want to go much higher with the continous current, I have to go higher with the voltage, so that I get more power out of it. 
If the speed at 80V is about 2000rpm, there shouldn't be a problem with about 5000rpm at 180V, or not?

The 80V motor, and the 48V 8kW motor are about 17" long, and I think 10 - 11" Diameter.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> *If* the speed at 80V is about 2000rpm, there shouldn't be a problem with about 5000rpm at 180V, or not?


*If*  Don't know, do we? And at what load? What if the 80V motor is a 3500 RPM machine and the 48V motor is a 1200 RPM torque monster? I don't know from those pics. If you feel better with the 80V guy, buy him


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hehe  sure you are right!

I'll try to get some better pictures, or another motor, where the plate is still readable


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi mani

Simply based on the pictures provided, I will probably take the 48v 8Kw just because the brush area seem bigger than the 80v 12Kw.
Bigger brush generally mean bigger overload capacity. But it's a guess based on pictures!

As Major said:


> I can offer more opinion if you post clear photos of the brush and commutator


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hi!

Here is another photo of the 80V 12kW, it seems to have 2 x 4 brushes.

The seller has some more:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...43?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item33809776ff
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...70?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item51a9b1ab2a
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...00?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item33809c5b2c
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...93?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item51a9a4d35d
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...67?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item51a9a4ef63


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Any suggestions which one I should use?


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

mani9876 said:


> Any suggestions which one I should use?


I think that others will have better opinions on specific motors or questions, but I would suggest that you need a motor that is at least 70kg, that is, I don't think that the smaller motors will work for you.

This seems to have some sort of plate on the shaft:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor-...item51a9a4d35d

which might be useful as the basis for a coupler. I did notice that one of the others has some hardware on the front which might be useful or a handicap, or neither, but you can't see the shaft.


----------



## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi, 
I have a general question about mounting a forklift motor in a car. I have an 11" GE motor that I want to mount with a motor ring clamp. Unfortunately the ideal spot on the motor has 4 sets of bolts in the way. These bolts are set at 90 degrees around the perimeter and I believe they hold the stator windings in place. Would there be any problem with removing the bolts (not all at once), installing the ring and re-installing bolts through holes drilled in the ring. I would ensure the new bolts extended into the housing the same depth so as not to interfere with the rotor. I attached a picture of the motor showing the bolts. Any input is appreciated.
Dan


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> Hi,
> I have a general question about mounting a forklift motor in a car. I have an 11" GE motor that I want to mount with a motor ring clamp. Unfortunately the ideal spot on the motor has 4 sets of bolts in the way. These bolts are set at 90 degrees around the perimeter and I believe they hold the stator windings in place. Would there be any problem with removing the bolts (not all at once), installing the ring and re-installing bolts through holes drilled in the ring. I would ensure the new bolts extended into the housing the same depth so as not to interfere with the rotor. I attached a picture of the motor showing the bolts. Any input is appreciated.
> Dan


 
You might drill the holes large enough to fit over the heads of the bolts.

Alvin


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Crossdan said:


> Hi,
> I have a general question about mounting a forklift motor in a car. I have an 11" GE motor that I want to mount with a motor ring clamp. Unfortunately the ideal spot on the motor has 4 sets of bolts in the way. These bolts are set at 90 degrees around the perimeter and I believe they hold the stator windings in place. Would there be any problem with removing the bolts (not all at once), installing the ring and re-installing bolts through holes drilled in the ring. I would ensure the new bolts extended into the housing the same depth so as not to interfere with the rotor. I attached a picture of the motor showing the bolts. Any input is appreciated.
> Dan


Hi Dan,

Those are called pole bolts as they attach the pole pieces (some call them pole shoes) to the inside of the frame and this does hold the field coils in place. What you propose would be o.k. in my opinion. But I think it would be better to machine (drill or cut) larger clearance holes in the belly band so you don't have to mess with removing the pole bolts. You risk breaking or stripping those old bolts and I wouldn't remove them unless you have to. Of course they are supposed to be removable for field coil service.

Regards,

major


----------



## Crossdan (Nov 11, 2011)

Alvin and Major,
Thanks for the info and advice. I think I like the idea of drilling out the band. I may be able to slide the band to one side or the other and only have to drill/cut 4 holes.
Thanks again.
Dan


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Or as in my General Dynamics 9", countersink the holes.


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hi!

I found out that this motor: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...93?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item51a9a4d35d
is about 14" long and has a diameter of about 11".

Do you think it would be good for 144V and 20-30kW continous and some more peak power ?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> Hi!
> 
> I found out that this motor: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Elektromotor...93?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item51a9a4d35d
> is about 14" long and has a diameter of about 11".
> ...


Hi man,

I can't say for sure, but it appears to be a reasonable candidate and others have success at 144V with similar motors taking the usual steps of advance and overspeed protection. 

The continuous power question will likely bring an answer of no. Running at higher voltage (above nameplate rating) will give you higher peak power at higher RPM. But the continuous rating is based on the amount of heat (power loss) the motor can dissipate. Since the motor efficiency will not change significantly in the operational region of concern, the continuous power level will remain about the same. Notice that this motor does not have an internal fan therefore running at higher RPM will not improve the air flow and heat transfer much. Without ventilation at the drive end external blower assist will not force air thru the machine.

It is a large motor and I would expect it to take several hours to stabilize temperature for a continuous operation. This is one reason such traction motors are typically rated for one hour. Even at that, in the EV, the duty cycle is rarely if ever continuous. So I'm unclear on how you perceive the relevance of that rating. But do realize that the ventilation is an important consideration.

Regards,

major


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## mani9876 (May 10, 2012)

Hey major!

Thanks for the answer.
So I forgot to say that I want to add some forced air cooling.
I think thats an important part at improving the power of the motor. 
You are absolutely right, that the question of continous power in ev is a little bit confusing.

I just want to be sure that I am able to do 60 mph continous and can push the motor to at least 60kW peak power for good acceleration.

So do you think with adding forced air cooling I should be able to do smth. Like that? I think i this motor is rated at 8kW for 1h, it should even be better than a 12kW for 1h with a ventilator at the shaft originally. Am I false?

Thanks for all your help


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mani9876 said:


> So do you think with adding forced air cooling I should be able to do smth. Like that? I think i this motor is rated at 8kW for 1h, it should even be better than a 12kW for 1h with a ventilator at the shaft originally. Am I false?


That would be possible with strong air flow thru the motor, IMO.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I am in the process of buying a forklift with a couple of Hitachi MT-4100 motors (drive and pump). I asked about these before, but I now have some pics. and was able to get some specs. From reading here, I think one or both should be good candidates, but I wanted to run it by you guys before I paid the money. They look to me like they have been rebuilt recently. The drive motor is a little longer than the pump motor but may have slightly smaller brushes. I forgot to measure the length, but I'd guess 14-16". I didn't have time today to check the bar count, but 144 volts is reasonable isn't it? Any idea on peak output?
I'd like to build a 3000 lb +/- car for around town use, no highway but capable reaching of 55-60 mph, fairly quick from say 0-30 mph, cruise at 40-45 and a range of 15-25 miles in town (whatever I could get from a 9-10kw Pack).


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Pudleglum
I have one of those motors - the 10kw - in my car 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p2.html?highlight=duncan

It's going great! - taking it to a sprint next Sunday - see if I can show some of these dino burners


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I think you found a good candidate puddleglum.
Similar motor with slight modifications can briefly produce 5 to10 time nominal power when coupled with proper battery and controller. They also produce really high starting torque with high amps. Well enough to move a car around town.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

New question for the experts;

With a brushed DC motor what is the effect of driving the motor with zero current to the brushes?
Would I wear out the brushes at an accelerated rate?

The reason I ask is that my car is direct drive and I have started using a trailer to take my car to motorsport events.
At the sprint on Sunday (my first one) one of the (petrol) cars was being towed using an A frame - that would be a lot easier that using a car trailer - BUT would it damage my motor?

There is no problem with revs - I go faster on the track than the max speed limit here (100Kph)
- I don't have the range to drive the EV to the track -


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## Pbk (Jun 3, 2012)

Please don't do it 
All ev at work have hubs that disconnect the drive motor except one and it has big warning do not tow over 5 mph all over it. 
I think it's because the motor in effect becomes a generator with no real way to use the electricity it's creating. 
You may want to wait on Major to explain better but I wanted to get a warning out fast as the could be an expensive mistake.

It maybe ok it could be that the warnings are to protect the gear reduction hubs but lets get lots of feed back before you tow. 
Monday morning I will see if any of the manuals have the reason they warn against towing.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

It will be a generator if you have power on the fields. When I drive my DC EV and let off the accelerator the motor just freewheels. No generating. I think the only issue is that you will wear the brushes out faster and have to deal with brush dust more often.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> It will be a generator if you have power on the fields. When I drive my DC EV and let off the accelerator the motor just freewheels. No generating. I think the only issue is that you will wear the brushes out faster and have to deal with brush dust more often.


Running under zero current - will the brush wear be:
- about the same? (as driving)
- Ten times as much?
- more?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Running under zero current - will the brush wear be:
> - about the same? (as driving)
> - Ten times as much?
> - more?


For short durations you're o.k. Long distance will have the brushes wear off the commutator film which supplies the suitable surface for the brushes to mate and without that the friction will increase and so will the wear rate. You would be wise to disconnect the motor shaft if you tow it at high speed and/or for more than a mile. I guess you could lift the brushes from the comm if you can get to them all and feel certain they won't jar back in place.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Running under zero current - will the brush wear be:
> - about the same? (as driving)
> - Ten times as much?
> - more?


Can't answer that. That would have to be a scientific test to know for sure. Can't imagine the brush wear being worse but without the current running through them I can't say.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

major said:


> For short durations you're o.k. Long distance will have the brushes wear off the commutator film which supplies the suitable surface for the brushes to mate and without that the friction will increase and so will the wear rate. You would be wise to disconnect the motor shaft if you tow it at high speed and/or for more than a mile. I guess you could lift the brushes from the comm if you can get to them all and feel certain they won't jar back in place.


Thanks Major - sounds like I should continue to use my trailer!


----------



## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Duncan said:


> There is no problem with revs - I go faster on the track than the max speed limit here (100Kph)


What are you seeing (or limiting to) for peak motor rpm's and are you still using the stock brushes?
Off topic, but how well did your car run at the sprint?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> What are you seeing (or limiting to) for peak motor rpm's and are you still using the stock brushes?
> Off topic, but how well did your car run at the sprint?


 Hi puddleglum

I am using direct drive so - 4000rpm = 108Kph
Which is about as high as I have gone so far

Stock brushes - they were new so i am still using them

The sprint - cars are a lot faster than they were 23 years ago when I last drove in a sprint

the device was great fun and not last - but nearly! - the driver needs some practice


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> I am in the process of buying a forklift with a couple of Hitachi MT-4100 motors (drive and pump). I asked about these before, but I now have some pics.


Well, I bought the forklift and plan to use the MT4100 drive motor. My question now is, should I pull the pump motor pictured above as well? It is a 10" MP4110, but is only 12.5" long and the coil section is only 5.5". It's rated for 11Kw for 15min. My ammeter showed it drawing up to 420 amps in operation, so it's designed to take some high current and it has an external shaft. Do you guys think it might be suitable for a small car conversion like a Metro or something? I will keep it or try to sell it, if it could work. I hate to sell it for scrap if it could be used, but if it's just a waste of time I won't bother.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Puddlegum
Keep the pump motor - or sell it - it is probably OK for a small car - especially if you can blow some extra air through it

I would be interested myself - except for the freight costs!


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

puddleglum said:


> Well, I bought the forklift and plan to use the MT4100 drive motor. My question now is, should I pull the pump motor pictured above as well? It is a 10" MP4110, but is only 12.5" long and the coil section is only 5.5". It's rated for 11Kw for 15min. My ammeter showed it drawing up to 420 amps in operation, so it's designed to take some high current and it has an external shaft. Do you guys think it might be suitable for a small car conversion like a Metro or something? I will keep it or try to sell it, if it could work. I hate to sell it for scrap if it could be used, but if it's just a waste of time I won't bother.


It sounds a damn good motor to me.... I would use it....


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

http://www.ebay.de/itm/BalkanCar-St...20?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item35c7716900











Will something like this be any good for my 800 kilo car?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a shunt motor. The diagram shows the field winding in parallel with the armature winding. That will mean the motor will vary the current draw to remain at the same speed, ideal for running a hydraulic pump where the speed of the pump will be fairly constant but with a varying load.

You will need a series motor where there are 4 terminals and the field winding is put in series with the armature.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks!


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> That is a shunt motor. The diagram shows the field winding in parallel with the armature winding. That will mean the motor will vary the current draw to remain at the same speed, ideal for running a hydraulic pump where the speed of the pump will be fairly constant but with a varying load.
> 
> You will need a series motor where there are 4 terminals and the field winding is put in series with the armature.


It may be possible to rewire it to a series motor but I am not sure how powerfull it will be as the field winding may be a much lower guage wire.
If you already own it what have you to lose.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

zsnemeth said:


> Not worth it. Have a look at the duty cycle, 25% is just 15 min...


Also the field winding will be many turns of very fine copper instead of only a few turns of large section copper.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

i dont onw it yet, i ask first before i buy. now i know the difference between shunt and series. Thats helps alot, thanks for the advice, the hunt for another motor is on.


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

Hi everyone

I just picked up this forklift motor: http://www.ebay.com/itm/28277-72Vol...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 

































The label looks like its been trimmed of the manufacturer name. Its a 9.5" diammeter by 16.5" length. Weighs 158 pounds

Although its a 13 spline female shaft, it was too good of a deal to pass. I just opened it up to examine it, and its true that its all rebuilt and clean. Was a spare at a shut down gm plant.

I went to the seller's warehouse and he had a lot of goodies and motors, but he does not allow shoppers to browse around. All sales conducted through ebay.

Question is, anyone know the maker, rpm @ 72 volts, and max current/power? Any help will be appreciated.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

is this any good?

Volt: 48V DC
Current: 310A
Power: 12Kw
Size: 
18.5cm Diameter
Lenght without pump: 28cm
2550Rpm/
Weight : Approx 40Kg
although it is a hydraulic pump motor? so it is shunt motor?



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48Volt-DC...al_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item20d2c08ed2


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Eric said:


> is this any good?
> 
> Volt: 48V DC
> Current: 310A
> ...


Too small for a car IMO. Only a 7" motor.
Also it has no shaft, just a little drive tab for the pump. You will have many difficulties adapting that to drive anything else.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

well that answer raises a question i asked earlier: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/forklift-motor-strong-enoughi-85768.html

your answer tells me a motor has to have a certain physical size in order to be strong enough. whats size stands for what sort of power? Because most adverts dont tell sizes but power of the motor. i.o 6kW, 4kW, etc.


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## 21940 (Aug 23, 2011)

Eric said:


> well that answer raises a question i asked earlier: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/forklift-motor-strong-enoughi-85768.html
> 
> your answer tells me a motor has to have a certain physical size in order to be strong enough. whats size stands for what sort of power? Because most adverts dont tell sizes but power of the motor. i.o 6kW, 4kW, etc.


Size is an indication of the torque of the motor. Even if it's got a high power rating, if the torque isn't there, it won't really do you any good.

I think I got that right.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Eric said:


> whats size stands for what sort of power?


Hi Eric,

There is no easy answer. That is why this thread has 1833 posts and 430,912 views. If you want a motor to feel assured that it will produce a given performance to an advertised specification or nameplate, then go to one of the EV parts dealers and buy it.

If you are on this thread and trying to apply a forklift motor to your EV car conversion, realize that the nameplate will not be specific for you, if the motor has a nameplate at all. So you have to rely on the experience of others and advice from some here.

The size of the motor generally determines the torque capability.

The speed at which you use that torque will determine the power from the motor. 

Power or current ratings are time and cooling method dependent.

Consider the system, not just the motor. It is not necessary to have a 200 hp continuously rated motor if your battery can only deliver 150 kW for 5 minutes.

The performance of the motor (RPM, torque, V, I,) is just one aspect. You must consider the physical attributes like the winding, the bearings, the shaft, the ventilation (or lack thereof), etc. 

Good luck,

major


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks for the imput everyone, mr. Woodsmith, followed by major, explained it perfectly in the topic mentioned earlier.

The search is on


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## dustysky (May 23, 2013)

I am planningon converting my 1963 oldsmobile super 88 to electric and would loke to know if you have any advice on what kind of AC motor I would need the curb weight is about 4200 lbs and its an automatic


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dustysky said:


> I am planningon converting my 1963 oldsmobile super 88 to electric and would loke to know if you have any advice on what kind of AC motor I would need the curb weight is about 4200 lbs and its an automatic


Used or surplus AC forklift motors are not too common. You would be better off to start a thread in the conversions and builds forum http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/all-ev-conversions-and-builds-2.html


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I finally had a chance to pull my motor out of the forklift and get some better pics. of it. Nothing looks burnt, corroded or oil soaked, from what I can see, and there were no sparks, that I could see, when it was running in the forklift. I'm hoping that is a good sign. It is heavy though, no aluminum on this beast, and the shafts are really long. Hope that won't be too much of a problem.
Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a motor overhaul thread? I've searched, but can't seem to find one. I've found lots of good info spread around through build threads, but it would sure be nice to have all the good advice grouped into one place. I'm probably asking for too much, aren't I?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeaaa

Looks just like mine - mine weighed 102Kg without the brake

The hand brake on the end contains a nice female splined drive piece
on mine the splines were the same at both ends
So I just made an adapter to go onto the brake bot and onto the prop-shaft
Just a disc with shoulders to match the two bits - four threaded holes and four plain holes
That is now driving on the drive end of the motor

I used the brake back-plate to mount the speed sensor for my cycle analyst

While you are at the forklift grab;
Anderson connectors,
Cable,
Contactors,
forwards-rearwards switch
throttle
Basically grab everything you can - you can always throw it away later


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Thanks Duncan, I will.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi, I have just purchased this motor . Please tell me it is a DC series (and mean it) 48v Toyota?


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

poprock1 said:


> Hi, I have just purchased this motor . Please tell me it is a DC series (and mean it) 48v Toyota?


Hi Mate.
It looks like it might be but you need to take the cover off (spring clip) and photograph whats inside, also photograph the label that is fixed to it so we can read it.
Regards John


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

poprock1 said:


> Hi, I have just purchased this motor . Please tell me it is a DC series (and mean it) 48v Toyota?


It appears to be reversible, 4 terminals of equal size, traction motor, so 99+% sure it is series wound


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> It appears to be reversible, 4 terminals of equal size, traction motor, so 99+% sure it is series wound


That's what I thought, but my big GE ended up being a SepEx. I was certain a had a series motor until I emailed Jim about building it - one look at my spaghetti-wired field coils and he gave me the "bad" news. My terminals are all the same size - my guess is it was a production thing - like GM. Same parts for different configurations (series, SepEx, etc) saves money.

Do what John said and get some pics of the guts - especially the field coils, if you can.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That's what I thought, but my big GE ended up being a SepEx. I was certain a had a series motor until I emailed Jim about building it - one look at my spaghetti-wired field coils and he gave me the "bad" news. My terminals are all the same size - my guess is it was a production thing - like GM. Same parts for different configurations (series, SepEx, etc) saves money.
> 
> Do what John said and get some pics of the guts - especially the field coils, if you can.


Hence the less than 100% certainty as I indicated


> so 99+% sure


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

i found a splined shaft and a female adapter for my dc motor. some local industrial supply company had everything i needed.

so dont let that splined female shafted motor pass you by . affordable solutions exist.


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Just found this motor at a local company:










if i google partnumber it comes up with this webiste/manufacturer:

http://www.bl-motor.com/cn/index.asp

http://www.bl-motor.com/cn/show.asp?ID=244

i thought i heard the man say it has brushes in it, that might be a problem? And on that manufacturers website it says its a pumpmotor..
crap.


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## jhay (May 26, 2013)

My aim is to convert a 1975 VW beetle to use as a daily work-and-back vehicle.
That is 10km (about 6 miles) in each direction. The road is mostly through suburbs where the speed limit is 60km/h (37miles/h) but you only reach that a few times because of turns, stop signs, traffic lights etc.

I have been looking at motors but there are not that many forklift yards around and the variety is limited. One that look like it might have potential is this one. It is a pump motor and I do not know what the shaft looks like. Before I buy I will make sure it is something I can use.

The basic specs from the plate:
Manufacturer: AMRE
Model: 2734
Watt: 8000
Volt: 48
Amp: 196
RPM: 2450
Duty: S2 15 min
S3 20%
Ecc: Serie
Isolation: H

There is also a clockwise arrow. Will that be if you look from the motor to the load or if you look from the load to the motor?

There are 4 brushes in total and they look to be about 25mm (1 inch) wide.
Outside diameter is 220mm (8.6') and the length of the body is 325mm (12.7').The weight is around 40kg (85lbs).

The S2 duty cycle of 15 minutes probably means that the motor is already pushed. But my drive to work is only about 15 minutes. Should I try to find one with a higher duty cycle?

I was thinking that with the 2450 rpm at 48V, I can proably up the Volts a bit for higher rpm? Maybe 72V or even 96V?

So do you guys think it will do the job or do I have to hunt some more?

John


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jhay said:


> My aim is to convert a 1975 VW beetle to use as a daily work-and-back vehicle.
> That is 10km (about 6 miles) in each direction. The road is mostly through suburbs where the speed limit is 60km/h (37miles/h) but you only reach that a few times because of turns, stop signs, traffic lights etc.
> 
> I have been looking at motors but there are not that many forklift yards around and the variety is limited. One that look like it might have potential is this one. It is a pump motor and I do not know what the shaft looks like. Before I buy I will make sure it is something I can use.
> ...


Rotation is typically stated on the drive end (DE). Like CWDE or CCWDE. Meaning which way the shaft rotates when looking straight at the shaft as though you were the load.

From the pics and nameplate, it is series wound[good], quality constructed[good], fan cooled[good], in fairly good condition[good], but likely has internal spline shaft[bad] and somewhat small brushes[probably o.k.]. And 72 or 96 probably o.k. Keep an eye on RPM. Stay under 6k.


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## jhay (May 26, 2013)

Major thanks for the reply.

I emailed AMRE for more info and they sent me this pdf. The weight is actually 56kg. Our guesstimate was a bit low.

According to them it is a key shaft 8X18, mm I assume. Probably not so easy to use.

For a beetle the motor needs to turn CCWDE, so I guess I will search some more. 

John


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## hankjay (Jul 28, 2013)

Hi All
Don't know if I started this correctly as I have a new question, but didn't see how to start one.

I have found a Crown walk behind forklift with a good traction engine, it is however only 24 Volts. I have noted the model # W6AE01 and the serial # 723 and another number that was on the plate 020366.

I have tried to google this motor, but cannot find any reference to it.

What do you think, I have not removed the engine yet as it is in a yard in a rather inconvenient spot.

Would this be a good one to try?
thanks Hank


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

hankjay said:


> Hi All
> Don't know if I started this correctly as I have a new question, but didn't see how to start one.
> 
> I have found a Crown walk behind forklift with a good traction engine, it is however only 24 Volts. I have noted the model # W6AE01 and the serial # 723 and another number that was on the plate 020366.
> ...


Hi Hank,

Those numbers don't tell much. Got photos? Typically walk-behind lift trucks have low travel speed and limited capacity, so have a relatively low power motor. [Please refer to the electric conversion device as a motor, not engine, thanks] Also the fact that it is 24 Volts would indicate a lower power machine. You haven't mentioned what you're looking to do with it, but for an EVcar, it is unlikely to be suitable.

Regards,

major


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## hankjay (Jul 28, 2013)

major said:


> Hi Hank,
> 
> Those numbers don't tell much. Got photos? Typically walk-behind lift trucks have low travel speed and limited capacity, so have a relatively low power motor. [Please refer to the electric conversion device as a motor, not engine, thanks] Also the fact that it is 24 Volts would indicate a lower power machine. You haven't mentioned what you're looking to do with it, but for an EVcar, it is unlikely to be suitable.
> 
> ...


Thanks major, I don't have photos, but will hope to be able to post them sometime next week. I realise that a 24v mtor isn't much, but it has a decent size and it is not costing much it is almost free. The again I may be able to go to 72 Volts and have a trial. I have a Mercedes W123 in which I would like to try things, like building the electronics etc. If it all works I can either purchase a more suitable motor or one never knows a better motor comes around.
Hank


----------



## jhay (May 26, 2013)

Hi Guys,

I'm still looking for a motor for a VW Beetle (post 1849). I came across this motor still inside a Hyster forklift.

According to the label:

General Electric
48V
8.7kW
200Amp
1500rpm
1 hour duty
class H

It is about 9" in diameter (220mm) and the body is about 14" (380mm) long. There a 4 sets of 2 brushes.

The rpm looks a bit low, if one double the voltage, can one expect roughly double rpm?

The bigger worry though is that the wires to the field terminals are thinner than the others, which probably means that it is a sepex? If so are sepex motors really do-able for DIYers? I searched this forum and what I found was a bit mixed, but weighted to the negative I think.

So here are my fotos:


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## hankjay (Jul 28, 2013)

hankjay said:


> Thanks major, I don't have photos, but will hope to be able to post them sometime next week. I realise that a 24v mtor isn't much, but it has a decent size and it is not costing much it is almost free. The again I may be able to go to 72 Volts and have a trial. I have a Mercedes W123 in which I would like to try things, like building the electronics etc. If it all works I can either purchase a more suitable motor or one never knows a better motor comes around.
> Hank


I finaly got around to taking a photo of the Motor, its not a real good one but the forklift is in a bad spot.
Hank


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jhay said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm still looking for a motor for a VW Beetle (post 1849). I came across this motor still inside a Hyster forklift.
> 
> ...


It looks like a real nice motor in good shape. Yes, double voltage will generally double RPM. And yes, SepEx is probable due to the smaller field leads. And SepEx can prove problematic due to the lack of high voltage controllers available.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

hankjay said:


> I finaly got around to taking a photo of the Motor, its not a real good one but the forklift is in a bad spot.
> Hank


I can't tell for sure, but it appears to be a 6.6" diameter motor and likely 24V. Probably rated at 2 or 3 HP for one hour. Higher voltage with forced ventilation might get you into the 6 to 8 HP range. I'd say too weak for an EVcar unless you drive real slowly


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## dtmpower (Dec 15, 2009)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200955463283?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Would this be suitable to power an RX-8 or similar sized car ?

What would you expect to pay for it ?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RPM's are pretty low, 1500 at 80V.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dtmpower said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200955463283?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
> 
> Would this be suitable to power an RX-8 or similar sized car ?
> 
> What would you expect to pay for it ?


A bit beat up but looks like a good motor. Needs a bath  I guess it's worth a hundred or so of your British money units. I also suspect it to be suitable size for your car, maybe on the large end. He says 12 inch dia but 50-60kg. That's about the weight of a Warp9 which is pretty typical for mid size EVcar conversions.


----------



## 21940 (Aug 23, 2011)

major said:


> A bit beat up but looks like a good motor. Needs a bath  I guess it's worth a hundred or so of your British money units. I also suspect it to be suitable size for you car, maybe on the large end. He says 12 inch dia but 50-60kg. That's about the weight of a Warp9 which is pretty typical for mid size EVcar conversions.


Just trying to keep my knowledge up to snuff. What about the 1500 RPM @ 80V DC? I'm thinking that RPM is a little bit low for conversion use.

Am I misguided in that thought?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

NevynPA said:


> Just trying to keep my knowledge up to snuff. What about the 1500 RPM @ 80V DC? I'm thinking that RPM is a little bit low for conversion use.
> 
> Am I misguided in that thought?


That RPM/Voltage is a nameplate value, at a particular load for rating purpose. It is a series motor (presumably) so it will have higher RPM at lower load and/or higher RPM at higher voltage.

Why not compare 1500RPM @ 80V to the Warp9 at the same load/same voltage? And you can always gear to get the desired vehicle speed. Typically larger motors will run at lower RPM with more torque. 

As you apply this motor to your specific application, you may find that running a bit higher battery voltage is the ticket. Modern controllers should be able to accommodate this.


----------



## 21940 (Aug 23, 2011)

major said:


> That RPM/Voltage is a nameplate value, at a particular load for rating purpose. It is a series motor (presumably) so it will have higher RPM at lower load and/or higher RPM at higher voltage.
> 
> Why not compare 1500RPM @ 80V to the Warp9 at the same load/same voltage? And you can always gear to get the desired vehicle speed. Typically larger motors will run at lower RPM with more torque.
> 
> As you apply this motor to your specific application, you may find that running a bit higher battery voltage is the ticket. Modern controllers should be able to accommodate this.


Makes sense. Thanks for keeping me straight!


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

major said:


> I also suspect it to be suitable size for you car, maybe on the large end. He says 12 inch dia but 50-60kg. That's about the weight of a Warp9 which is pretty typical for mid size EVcar conversions.


My 11 inch dia is 102 Kg
I suspect either the size or weight are wrong
Probably the weight - a tape measure is easier to carry than some scales

Take care and don't hurt yourself trying to lift it


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

scaling from the shaft size it is 8 dia, 9 max and 50kg ' ' '


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That's the same motor as I have in the 3 series. Its compound wound and I run it up to 3k rpm no problem.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> That's the same motor as I have in the 3 series. Its compound wound and I run it up to 3k rpm no problem.


Seller added this note: 


> A video of the motor running with 12v applied can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03TF6Oleo98&feature=youtube_gdata_player .Please note motor is series wound with 4 terminals, 2 Armature and 2 Field.


 From the vid, kinda rough running. Needs a balance check as well as a good bath 


He claims series wound. Reversible compound motors need at least 5 terminals. Maybe the F1 terminal is hiding under the grease and grime.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The F1 and F2 can be seen in the video at the very start near the drive end. They are small 6mm bolts. Kinda tempted to bid on it myself!


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

major said:


> From the vid, kinda rough running. Needs a balance check as well as a good bath


Sounds like bearings to me? could be a very cheap fix.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Slow for 12 volts but for sure a bearing is bad. Replace them both. Oh my, give it a bath inside and out.


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## dtmpower (Dec 15, 2009)

dtmpower said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200955463283?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
> 
> Would this be suitable to power an RX-8 or similar sized car ?
> 
> What would you expect to pay for it ?


Well I bid up to £100 , missed out though, it sold for £127 !


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

That went for super cheap! I was watching it just to see what it went for, 127 in the last 2 seconds!


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## dtmpower (Dec 15, 2009)

Eric said:


> That went for super cheap! I was watching it just to see what it went for, 127 in the last 2 seconds!


Yeah, bit annoyed as at work and had to rely on auction sniper - didn't know what it was worth in it's condition.

Will have to wait for the next one to come up for sale - and this one was local to me !


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

dtmpower said:


> Yeah, bit annoyed as at work and had to rely on auction sniper - didn't know what it was worth in it's condition.
> 
> Will have to wait for the next one to come up for sale - and this one was local to me !


If you see one local - grab it!

At those numbers shipping can double the price


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> I can't tell for sure, but it appears to be a 6.6" diameter motor and likely 24V. Probably rated at 2 or 3 HP for one hour. Higher voltage with forced ventilation might get you into the 6 to 8 HP range. I'd say too weak for an EVcar unless you drive real slowly


How do you think a motor this size/spec would do in a motorcycle Major? I know it's not a race motor, but is it enough for normal speeds/normal acceleration, with higher voltage?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> How do you think a motor this size/spec would do in a motorcycle Major? I know it's not a race motor, but is it enough for normal speeds/normal acceleration, with higher voltage?


Likely not much different than a D&D 6.6 incher which has done well for a number of elmotos. If you carry enough battery to go for like an hour at highway speed, you could get into overheating. But there are ways to deal with that. Most MC converters go for the PMDC due to lighter weight and perceived higher efficiency. Many of them regret it. I think the heavier wound field motor is worth it for the torque and durability.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Likely not much different than a D&D 6.6 incher which has done well for a number of elmotos. If you carry enough battery to go for like an hour at highway speed, you could get into overheating. But there are ways to deal with that. Most MC converters go for the PMDC due to lighter weight and perceived higher efficiency. Many of them regret it. I think the heavier wound field motor is worth it for the torque and durability.


Thanks Major.  I'm pulling the trigger on one. I have a tiny PMDC (4.5dia x 7L) motor in Scrape for initial testing, and have been impressed, but just as you're getting at I have concerns about purchasing a bigger one (PMDC) and beating on it too much. Time to have a little fun with a good ol' series-wound (little) beast(ie)...


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## scrws6 (Sep 4, 2013)

Sorry this really doesn't have much of a view on it just wondered if anyone could tell me if this might be a suitable motor for my dodge avenger conversion? pretty new here, appreciate any word!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

scrws6 said:


> Sorry this really doesn't have much of a view on it just wondered if anyone could tell me if this might be a suitable motor for my dodge avenger conversion? pretty new here, appreciate any word!


Hi scrw,

I'd guess maybe a 9 inch diameter series wound traction motor, maybe GE, but Yale did make some of their own motors. Likely a good motor design. I see 2 brushes per holder---good sign. Bunch of leaves there, so outside storage. Probably needs tear down and and service, comm turned, maybe new bearings, cleaning and paint. Check insulation. A couple days in the shop and it could be a strong and good lookin' motor for ya. 

I don't know the car, or your expectations, but if it is a 9 incher, you could compare to guys using a Warp9 for a feel of its capabilities.

Get your tool box and extract that sucker 

major


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## scrws6 (Sep 4, 2013)

Appreciate the quick reply Major!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Major (and anyone else who cares to chime in), I got my little motor for Scrape. First problem, the shipping company the guy uses packed it in soft foam and it found its way almost completely out of the box, breaking the A1 terminal mount in the CE end, and bending the S2 terminal a bit. I can fix all this damage.



























But here's the thing I really want some feedback on. The guy says he sent me the best motor he had, so I would rather fix the damage on what is a pretty clean motor, than start with a mess - unless this is a bigger technical mess. When it spins, it has this noise. There isn't any bearing noise, or feel of bad bearings, when I spin it by hand, so I was kind of assuming this is because the brushes were seated in for it spinning the opposite direction? I noticed that when I first started spinning it counterclockwise by hand I heard a little click/creak, like the brushes readjusted, then it was pretty quiet (by hand). With (12v) power on it, it has this sound.







The motor:










The comm has some scoring, and a couple small little nicks/chips on the edges in a couple places.











I'm not looking for a perfect motor, just one good enough to get Scrape moving at normal motorcycle speeds. I would eventually rebuild this motor, but probably not anything really exotic. At this point, I ultimately plan to go AC.

Whadda ya think? If it's a piece of junk, I can handle that - hit me. The seller seems to be pretty stand-up, and is willing to ship another motor out this week, possibly today; though he did say this was the best one of the lot. If it's okay other than the damage, I'm tempted to try to get some funds back to help cover the repairs, instead of rolling the dice on another one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you pulled the brushes out and looked at them? I'd try pulling all the brushes and then using a drill or another motor to spin the motor without brushes, in both directions, and see what it sounds like. I've used a V belt around a drill chuck to spin a pump, should work for this motor shaft as well.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> Major (and anyone else who cares to chime in), I got my little motor for Scrape. First problem, the shipping company the guy uses packed it in soft foam and it found its way almost completely out of the box, breaking the A1 terminal mount in the CE end, and bending the S2 terminal a bit. I can fix all this damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It sounds like a dry bearing to me, do as Major says and spin it without brushes I am sure you will still hear most of the noise.
A new set of bearings wont cost the earth.

That post damage could possibly be repaired with some of that resin putty, they claim it is as strong as metal. Just clean it with cellulose thinners (not white spirit) and use a good chunk of it. Maybe join the broken edge with araldite first to hold it in place and use the resin to build a more substantial mount.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

My guess is a high spot or crack on one of the commutator segments. I seem to hear a tic-tic sound about once per revolution. But my hearing is not good and I have just about zero experience with such motors.

Too bad people don't know how to package heavy stuff. It's best to mount the motor to a wooden frame, or use rigid foam for packing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Have you pulled the brushes out and looked at them? I'd try pulling all the brushes and then using a drill or another motor to spin the motor without brushes, in both directions, and see what it sounds like. I've used a V belt around a drill chuck to spin a pump, should work for this motor shaft as well.


Not yet, because I was trying not to change anything on the motor. If I end up getting another and this ones goes back I didn't want there to be any dispute over what I did - nothing has been disturbed or changed at this point, and it looks exactly like the pictures I posted when it arrived.






johnsiddle said:


> It sounds like a dry bearing to me, do as Major says and spin it without brushes I am sure you will still hear most of the noise.
> A new set of bearings wont cost the earth...


It could be, but really doesn't feel like a bearing when spinning it by hand. I can usually feel a bad bearing, even when you can't hear it. I'm not ruling it out though, and the bearings will be replaced when it gets a rebuild - down the road.






johnsiddle said:


> ...That post damage could possibly be repaired with some of that resin putty, they claim it is as strong as metal. Just clean it with cellulose thinners (not white spirit) and use a good chunk of it. Maybe join the broken edge with araldite first to hold it in place and use the resin to build a more substantial mount.


If I keep it, I'm going to TIG weld it. It's not structural, where it's broken, so I can simply drill it and put a screw or pin in to keep it in place until a full rebuild...







PStechPaul said:


> My guess is a high spot or crack on one of the commutator segments. I seem to hear a tic-tic sound about once per revolution. But my hearing is not good and I have just about zero experience with such motors...


That would show up (stop making noise) in the test JRP3 recommended. If it looks like it's staying, I will pull the brushes and spin it.







PStechPaul said:


> ...Too bad people don't know how to package heavy stuff. It's best to mount the motor to a wooden frame, or use rigid foam for packing.


Right. Even rigid foam works, is properly packed. Using soft foam was just stupid.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought you could just pull the spring off the brush and lift the brush out. Maybe you could just pry up on the spring enough to take the tension off the brush to get it off the comm and then spin the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I thought you could just pull the spring off the brush and lift the brush out. Maybe you could just pry up on the spring enough to take the tension off the brush to get it off the comm and then spin the motor.


I might try it. The springs are a little rusty, and I was concerned about breaking one or something stupid that might cause issues with a possible return.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd say the broken terminal from poor packaging already "ruined" the motor as far as the seller is concerned. Whatever you might do certainly can't be worse than that. I suppose you could ask him if he's willing to let you do some investigative tear down to see if it's worth saving, I'm guessing he probably would rather not take the motor back if he doesn't have to. He might be willing to just refund you a portion of the purchase price rather than send it back if you can still use it since it will need some work no matter what. I've done that before when something showed up not as advertized.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'd say the broken terminal from poor packaging already "ruined" the motor as far as the seller is concerned. Whatever you might do certainly can't be worse than that. I suppose you could ask him if he's willing to let you do some investigative tear down to see if it's worth saving, I'm guessing he probably would rather not take the motor back if he doesn't have to. He might be willing to just refund you a portion of the purchase price rather than send it back if you can still use it since it will need some work no matter what. I've done that before when something showed up not as advertized.


The seller has been pretty awesome in dealing with this. He says he used a middle-man shipper between him and FedEx, and they're the ones that packaged the motor. So, he's negotiating with them for damages. He was willing to ship me another motor, at no cost to me, today, if I send him a repair estimate that he can use to fight for the reimbursement. He said whether or not they even pick up the damaged motor is up to them, and if they don't it's mine. So, all I have to do is send an estimate and I have another motor. Note: he did inform me that this was the best of the lot. He said the next best is probably functionally equal to this motor, but not as nice aesthetically.

My concern isn't the seller, but the shipping company, should he send me a new motor and they pick this one up. Since he would be asking for payment from them, I would expect them to look for a reason to not pay, and the motor being tinkered with after the fact could be one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I thought you could just pull the spring off the brush and lift the brush out...


Decided to go for it. I made a little hook and lifted two of the weakest springs a bit and they felt fine, so I pulled all the brushes and gave it a go. (Also labeled them all, discreetly, so they can be reinstalled exactly as they were. )

The noise you hear this time is all from the old South Bend lathe. With my ear almost on the motor, it's pretty quiet in there, so it was definitely from the brushes.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you use the 'screwdriver trick' to listen to the motor?

Place the handle of a long/large screwdriver tight against your ear and then use the pointy end to touch the motor case near the bearing to listen to them running. Adjust the position of the handle against your ear to get the best sound.

I have a proper machinery stethoscope but still use the screwdriver to listen to moving parts


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Do you use the 'screwdriver trick' to listen to the motor?
> 
> Place the handle of a long/large screwdriver tight against your ear and then use the pointy end to touch the motor case near the bearing to listen to them running. Adjust the position of the handle against your ear to get the best sound.
> 
> I have a proper machinery stethoscope but still use the screwdriver to listen to moving parts


I have a stethoscope too, but didn't use it in this case. The noise in the first video was loud, and quite distinctively something clicking/rubbing, more or less in proportion with motor rpm. With the brushes removed, I had to get really close to hear anything from the motor. I could hear that clicking/rubbing sound from five feet away before - it was not there. If there's any bearing noise, it's a minor issue at this point (until a rebuild).

I have used that screwdriver trick before, or something similar to a screwdriver.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How did the brushes look?


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

I got my dc motor from a ebay seller. Looks like he's got another one listed.

Ebay item # 271192684536 .

This one is a 12inch class, fully rebuilt, but for double what I paid for mine, a 9 inch.

I see the item has 16 watchers, and i figured someone from this forum was watching also. The female spline is a big turnoff, but its available. Grainger has the male shaft, and this coupler slips right in, to prevent you from machining the shaft; ebay item 270894121626

Good luck if youre watching.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> How did the brushes look?


Wear that matches the comm, plus a couple small chips. I haven't found any raised areas on any of the comm bars that would chip the brushes, and there are little chips on the edges of a couple/few of the comm bars, so I am assuming small stones or something got in there; or maybe arcing?









What do you guys think?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe try putting them back in one at a time and spinning it again on the lathe to see if the noise comes back? I don't see anything horrible, maybe Major might with a more experienced eye.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe try putting them back in one at a time and spinning it again on the lathe to see if the noise comes back?...


That's a good idea. I'll try to talk myself into that tomorrow. 






JRP3 said:


> ...I don't see anything horrible, maybe Major might with a more experienced eye.


Neither does my untrained eye. Unless Major does see something really bad, I will probably keep this motor - whether they pay for the repairs or not. I have a feeling I shouldn't gamble on another one...

Where is that dude anyway?


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## abelenkiy (May 25, 2012)

Good evening (or whatever time you are reading this) ladies and gentlemen.
I have just aquired a used forklift motor, and wanted to see if anyone has any information on its full specs and if possible a datasheet.
The tag is very hard to read, so some of the numbers may be letters or similarly stamped numbers.
Meidensha Electric Co
HT-MPD
9KW
5min
65V
14540-72550-71 (not sure if the first 1 is a T, and some of the other numbers are really hard to read as well)
I have also gotten a Curtis PMC 1205-111
SN: 102432 
24-36v 400a
Would i be able to drive this motor? Reconfigure for higher/lower voltage/current controller/motor?
Any advise would be awesome, I understand i may be asking dumb questions. But like they say, "there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask them" 

Thank you in advance
Alex B.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe try putting them back in one at a time and spinning it again on the lathe to see if the noise comes back? I don't see anything horrible, maybe Major might with a more experienced eye.


I gave this a shot today. The brushes definitely make more noise running counterclockwise (facing the DE) than clockwise. Turning counterclockwise produces the sound in the first video, it quiets down the other way. Brush number three is a bit louder than the others.

I've decided to keep the motor, and have started mounting it in Scrape. I'll get some new brushes and maybe have the comm checked and/or freshened up when I can.


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## scrws6 (Sep 4, 2013)

Well, I got it out, took some angling and some forklift bites, but about 3 hours and I got it out, just glad the batteries had already been removed.

I may have bitten off more than I could chew with this motor its very rusty, as in screws are going to need to get drilled out and the whole thing needs a good scraping and maybe a wire wheel go round? Can I take this sucker apart clean and grind what parts I can save or should I just replace the guts? The comm looks ok to me, mostly the brush holders and brushes need replacing and the (field coils?) need a good brushing off.
Let me know what you all think, Im ready to get it all ripped apart and start work as this is the heart of the machine.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

scrws6


You might as well clean it and put it back together. Then try it with a 12 volt battery.

I would not use any solvent. Just a dust brush and shop rag. Vacuum and compressed air. Knock off the loose rust from the stator coils. Be careful with the insulation on the coil wires.

Would it spin by hand before you took it apart?

It can't hurt to try.


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## scrws6 (Sep 4, 2013)

Yup, she spun by hand, the rear bearing is going bad but otherwise I'm pretty sure it would have spun up fine, but there was way to much dirt and grit inside to try without taking it apart. I did hear on my build thread its a sepex motor, anyone verify?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi,
Yes it's sepex, you can tell from the coils.

Series wound field coils are wound from a low number of very heavy flat copper coils as they need to be able to handle the full current flowing to the armature, being in series. (up to 500A+ usually).

Sepex coils are made from a larger number of much lighter round copper wire, as in your motor. This is because they don't have to carry the armature current, being "separately exited"


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## scrws6 (Sep 4, 2013)

Ok, so flat, I was wondering what the heck the difference was, so I need to start looking more into sepex controllers and going that route, again appreciate the word!


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Coley
> 
> feel free to send pics anytime and I'll put an eyeball on them. If there is a cover band (and you want to remove it) it'll help me to see the comm and brush leads and such for a better idea as to it's over all health. FWIW, it's hard to say if that's a 1 hour duty cycle or a cont duty cycle on the data tag.
> Cya
> ...


I have a fork lift motor with plans to attach to a Honda Goldwing 1981 model, but this forklift motor has S1, S2, S3, S4, A1 & A2 I know by the sparks that A1 & A2 will be hot--BUT I have no idea how to wire this for my 60 volts. Can you send a diagram for the wiring. Thanks Diver653


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

diver653 said:


> Hi Torque Electric said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Coley
> ...


Jim has been AWOL for quite some time. He's a friend and I hope he's o.k. But in the mean time I've been covering his butt in this thread, so to speak. I wish he'd show up.

A1 & A2 connect to the armature via the brushes. All the S terminals are for the series field. Those need to be connected in series with the armature. Typically the series motor has a total of 4 terminals, and is connected like this:

A1 to battery +, A2 to S1, S2 to battery -.

or

A1 to battery +, A2 to S2, S1 to battery -, for opposite rotation.

Having 4 S terminals means the field coils are made to be configured in 2 different ways, series or series-parallel. There is no standard wiring diagram so you have to figure out how to connect them. I can help but need to see more, like photos???? And you'll have to make some simple test with a continuity meter. Easiest for me would be to have clear photos of the inside of the frame showing the coils and terminal connections.

Where did you get the motor? Is it possible to know how it was wired in the original installation?

major


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

major said:


> Jim has been AWOL for quite some time. He's a friend and I hope he's o.k. But in the mean time I've been covering his butt in this thread, so to speak. I wish he'd show up.
> 
> A1 & A2 connect to the armature via the brushes. All the S terminals are for the series field. Those need to be connected in series with the armature. Typically the series motor has a total of 4 terminals, and is connected like this:
> 
> ...


Ok Major thanks
I,ll send pictures
I bought the motor on eBay & nothing came with it. I am a ROOKIe, so by continuity test you mean what? Thanks and yes I am in over my head but that's how I roll.

diver653


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

diver653 said:


> Ok Major thanks
> I,ll send pictures
> I bought the motor on eBay & nothing came with it. I am a ROOKIe, so by continuity test you mean what? Thanks and yes I am in over my head but that's how I roll.
> 
> diver653


You should have a basic multimeter if you are serious about doing any work on EVs. Most multimeters will have a setting to check continuity. The instructions should show you how. Most will have a beeper or tone to indicate the circuit being tested is continuous. An Ohmmeter can also be used. It is pretty basic, along with having the ability to use the meter to measure voltage. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_test I imagine there are videos on line showing the use of the basic multimeter to measure voltage, resistance and continuity. http://www.electronics-lab.com/articles/multimeter_tutorial/ 
http://mechatronics.mech.northwestern.edu/design_ref/tools/multimeter.html

And likely many more.

Do you have the link to or eBay number?


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

do you have the link to or eBay number?[/QUOTE]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-VOLT-INDUSTRIAL-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-CLARK-2754608-/350149530004

This is exactly like the one I have.

Thanks
Diver653


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

> do you have the link to or eBay number?





diver653 said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-VOLT-INDUSTRIAL-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-CLARK-2754608-/350149530004
> 
> This is exactly like the one I have.
> 
> ...


That is a Prestolite MEE type motor, 12 Volt, 40 bar comm lap wound. First one I've seen in years. It will be a bitch to use at higher than 24V, maybe 36. It will take a lot current for its size (6.6 inch dia), but it will need a lot to produce torque. What were you plans for it?


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

major said:


> That is a Prestolite MEE type motor, 12 Volt, 40 bar comm lap wound. First one I've seen in years. It will be a bitch to use at higher than 24V, maybe 36. It will take a lot current for its size (6.6 inch dia), but it will need a lot to produce torque. What were you plans for it?


I was hoping to use it on a motorcycle stick 60 volts to it and get it to about 50 mph. For my 15 miles to work. Am I asking to much?


Diver653


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

diver653 said:


> I was hoping to use it on a motorcycle stick 60 volts to it and get it to about 50 mph. For my 15 miles to work. Am I asking to much?
> 
> 
> Diver653


I don't recall the RPM characteristics exactly, but say it ran 2000 RPM at load on 12V. Then at the same load with 60V, you'd expect 10,000 RPM and, if it held together, is still too fast IMO. You'd have too large rear sprocket or need a double reduction (jackshaft). Now with a controller, you can keep motor voltage lower than battery to limit motor RPM. But to get the power, you'll run high motor current. So that means a hefty controller.


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

major said:


> I don't recall the RPM characteristics exactly, but say it ran 2000 RPM at load on 12V. Then at the same load with 60V, you'd expect 10,000 RPM and, if it held together, is still too fast IMO. You'd have too large rear sprocket or need a double reduction (jackshaft). Now with a controller, you can keep motor voltage lower than battery to limit motor RPM. But to get the power, you'll run high motor current. So that means a hefty controller.


I have a curtis 48 volt that I have filled in all the missings mosfets and transistors. might that work? but I am going direct to the rear end via draft shaft on a Honda no sproket on the motor. might that work?

diver653


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Most bikes with drive shafts have about a 5 to 1 reduction from the transmission to the rear wheel.
Do you know the gear ratio? Can you turn the rear wheel one revolution and count how many turns the drive shaft makes?


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

ken will said:


> Most bikes with drive shafts have about a 5 to 1 reduction from the transmission to the rear wheel.
> Do you know the gear ratio? Can you turn the rear wheel one revolution and count how many turns the drive shaft makes?


3to 1 by the way I do have three 48 volt motors from a fork lift all of them are about 7inch but I would have to change out the gear shaft as they were for pumps I think. Do I have to go that way?

diver653


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

diver653 said:


> 3to 1
> diver653


 I don't know the motor so It's hard to give accurate figures.

A 3 to 1 reduction and a motor that turns at 10000 RPM at 60 volts that would be 240 MPH!
I think you might want to use a secondary reduction stage and reduce the voltage. 

If use 24 volts and add a 2 to 1 reduction that should be about 50 MPH.


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

ken will said:


> I don't know the motor so It's hard to give accurate figures.
> 
> A 3 to 1 reduction and a motor that turns at 10000 RPM at 60 volts that would be 240 MPH!
> I think you might want to use a secondary reduction stage and reduce the voltage.
> ...


 
What will reducing the voltage do to range? and would the 48 volt motor be the better choice


----------



## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

diver653 said:


> What will reducing the voltage do to range?


Assuming the motor has the same efficiency at both voltages:
If you have 2, 24 volt batteries in series for 48 volts you will get a range of X miles. If you take those same batteries and put them in parallel for 24 volts you will have twice the current but the same range of X miles.



diver653 said:


> and would the 48 volt motor be the better choice


A rule of thumb is: if the motors weigh the same they are about the same power.

Another rule of thumb is: Larger in diameter means more torque but less RPM.


If you have a 48 volt controller I would go with the 48 volt motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

diver653 said:


> Can you send a diagram for the wiring.


 For the Prestolite MEE type series motor:

High speed test
CWDE
S1and S3 to Batt +
S2 and S4 to A1
A2 to Batt-

CCWDE
S1 and S3 to Batt +
S2 and S4 to A2
A1 to Batt-



Low speed test
CWDE
S1 to Batt+
S2 to S3
S4 to A1
A2 to Batt-

CCWDE
S1 to Batt+
S2 to S3
S4 to A2
A1 to Batt-


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## asimor (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi everyone,
I have found a forklift motor for my mini car (1100 lbs) electric conversion. Is it good?










Thanks,


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

asimor said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have found a forklift motor for my mini car (1100 lbs) electric conversion. Is it good?
> 
> 
> ...


Nameplate information appears consistent with a good choice. I am not familiar with that model so have no idea what the motor looks like or size.


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

major said:


> Nameplate information appears consistent with a good choice. I am not familiar with that model so have no idea what the motor looks like or size.


What does it weigh and what is thediameter of the motor?


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I've got a question about the PS motor from my forklift. I'm wondering if it would work to run the PS on a car. It is really big and heavy (25lb.) for it's power rating compared to the PM motors that the cars with EHPS, but it's free. It has fine windings in both the armature and the field, so what type motor would that be? I'm wondering if it could be run at 14 volts and just have it turn on with the ignition. Free run speed at 12.3 volts is 1635 rpm. If it is designed to be a constant speed motor and not pull down too far under load, the speed would be about right. Is it a good idea or not?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Puddlegum

I assume you are just going to use the normal power steering pump with a belt to the motor
Sounds like it should work 
I think the pump will just spin fairly freely until you actually use the steering - may not waste too much power

You would need to try it to see if it had enough grunt at 13v to keep the pump spinning while steering


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## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Got this yesterday, any good? No tag on it anywere so i cant tell voltage or anything else.
has 4 thick wires coming from the housing


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## JMac (Jul 10, 2013)

Question on motor rating.
I understand the meaning of the term, what I do not know is how is it applied.

The motor I acquired, a pump motor, has a rating of 20%.
The motor has banding covering both the commutator and the fan at output end.

Would the rating change if bands with ventilation holes replaced the solid bands? Is there a method or math in determining the change in rating?

The motor also has a dual voltage listed, would the rating be based on the higher voltage?

GE 7" * 14"
4 brush holders, 2 brushes in each holder (1" x 1/2")
2 terminal input. I tested it with 12 volts and it runs smooth.
commutator count = 33 no pits, but does it look like scorching or normal film?

I will be putting this into a motorcycle. The rotation is correct.

Can I run this at 96V?
Are the extra plug interminals some type of feedback? Not sure what they are, but they connect to the this yellow wires at the brushes.

What is the best way to test RMP at a certain voltage (12v) to check what RPM would be at 48 and 96V. (is there any easy method?, before I start assembling the battery arrangement ) 

Thank you for all the information in these forums, it has been most helpful.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JMac said:


> Question on motor rating.
> I understand the meaning of the term, what I do not know is how is it applied.
> 
> The motor I acquired, a pump motor, has a rating of 20%.


In the forklift business, pump motors are rated on duty cycle time-on. In the USofA it is (or was) a base of 5 minutes (Europe was 10 minute base). So a 20% rating means one minute on, 4 minutes off, repeated continuously until temperatures stabilize with the peaks within the limit for the insulation class, like 180ºC for Class H.



JMac said:


> The motor has banding covering both the commutator and the fan at output end.


Then it was totally enclosed for a type EE truck. Type E trucks would have ventilated motors. Often the same (physically) motors would be used for both type E and EE trucks, just different coverbands.



JMac said:


> Would the rating change if bands with ventilation holes replaced the solid bands?


Sure, the motor carries a different rating depending on the type, E or EE.



JMac said:


> Is there a method or math in determining the change in rating?


Find a type E truck and read the nameplate on that motor. The forklift manufacturer, dealer, or service manual might have that. Sometimes the duty cycle rating curves are depicted on the motor's characteristic performance curve. There is no simple equation or rule of thumb of which I am aware. 



JMac said:


> The motor also has a dual voltage listed, would the rating be based on the higher voltage?


In this case, a totally enclosed motor, on a continuous cycle basis will be limited to the radiation of heat. That heat is the power in minus the power out or power loss. The motor efficiency would be nearly equal for the two voltage levels, so the power rating would be the same for each case. This would not be true for ventilated ratings due to the fact that the higher voltage will cause higher RPM and better cooling.



JMac said:


> GE 7" * 14"
> 4 brush holders, 2 brushes in each holder (1" x 1/2")
> 2 terminal input. I tested it with 12 volts and it runs smooth.
> commutator count = 33 no pits, but does it look like scorching or normal film?


Doesn't look too bad.



JMac said:


> I will be putting this into a motorcycle. The rotation is correct.
> 
> Can I run this at 96V?


Likely. But you have to watch RPM.



JMac said:


> Are the extra plug interminals some type of feedback? Not sure what they are, but they connect to the this yellow wires at the brushes.


BWI, brush wear indicator.



JMac said:


> What is the best way to test RMP at a certain voltage (12v) to check what RPM would be at 48 and 96V. (is there any easy method?, before I start assembling the battery arrangement )


Is it a series motor? If so, do NOT apply higher than 12V without a load. It will overspeed and could grenade apart. And reading a no-load RPM at 12V will give you little useful information as to the loaded RPM at any voltage. 



JMac said:


> Thank you for all the information in these forums, it has been most helpful.


----------



## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

Eric said:


> Got this yesterday, any good? No tag on it anywere so i cant tell voltage or anything else.
> has 4 thick wires coming from the housing


Can someone see anything usefull in this pictures?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Eric said:


> Can someone see anything usefull in this pictures?


Photos show a motor which has likely spent the past 30 years under a fork truck. Pretty grimey on the surface. Looks o.k. inside from what I see. Probably was still running when decommissioned. Brushes in view appear to have at least some usable length. Hard tellin' the size....like 10 or 11 inch diameter? About 200 pounds? If so, it was probably used at 48V State's side (72V Europe). Good guess it's series wound. Try a 12V test and see if she spins.


----------



## Eric (Sep 9, 2012)

http://youtu.be/BXZuZMmMbTc

Spins fine, dont know how i can see if its series or not.
Now going to figure out how i can take it apart, clean it, put it back together and use it.
I think i want to changebthe wires coming out of the housing to studs i can attach cables on.


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## JMac (Jul 10, 2013)

major said:


> In the forklift business, pump motors are rated on duty cycle time-on. In the USofA it is (or was) a base of 5 minutes (Europe was 10 minute base). So a 20% rating means one minute on, 4 minutes off, repeated continuously until temperatures stabilize with the peaks within the limit for the insulation class, like 180ºC for Class H.
> 
> Then it was totally enclosed for a type EE truck. Type E trucks would have ventilated motors. Often the same (physically) motors would be used for both type E and EE trucks, just different coverbands.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for your time and wealth of information Major. Tracking down the motor and looking into the different classes of trucks (E,EE) I came across a matching motor. 

From what I have read from the information you provided the rating could/would go up with the banding removed allowing the internal fan to be utilized. My follow on question pertains to the additional photo of the matching motors. 

Is it possible for the duty cycle to go from 20% to 50% just by removing the bands? I see the "SERV S3" on the Hyster motor. Am I reading this correctly? 
Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
John


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JMac said:


> Is it possible for the duty cycle to go from 20% to 50% just by removing the bands? I see the "SERV S3" on the Hyster motor. Am I reading this correctly?


Hi John,

I get the feeling you want to run this motor ventilated for propulsion in your EV car. Generally, motors used for traction are rated on a straight one hour base. I am familiar with the old Prestolite versions used by Hyster for the forklift pumps and have respect for the GE version. It is a very good motor. I'd venture to say the in the range of 36 to 96V, with speeds of 2-5000 RPM, you could run 180A with good ventilation in reasonable ambient conditions for one hour. Obviously, most traction motors see a varying load, so use an average current of 180. 

Regards,

major


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## asimor (Nov 14, 2012)

asimor said:


> Hi everyone,
> I have found a forklift motor for my mini car (1100 lbs) electric conversion. Is it good?
> 
> 
> ...


Here is the picture of motor:










In addition, I also found a few more. Please help me choose a good one:


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

asimor said:


> Here is the picture of motor:
> 
> In addition, I also found a few more. Please help me choose a good one:


I don't see much of the TCM motor  Decent rating, I guess.

The 2 BT motors look nice. The Prestolite is a traction version with a longer core but similar to JMac's motor in post #1928. Also see that reply for the duty cycle rating description. These are European, so would be a % time-on of a 10 minute base. I guess the second BT motor is the pump motor. Pump motors can have difficult shafts for coupling.


----------



## asimor (Nov 14, 2012)

major said:


> I don't see much of the TCM motor  Decent rating, I guess.
> 
> The 2 BT motors look nice. The Prestolite is a traction version with a longer core but similar to JMac's motor in post #1928. Also see that reply for the duty cycle rating description. These are European, so would be a % time-on of a 10 minute base. I guess the second BT motor is the pump motor. Pump motors can have difficult shafts for coupling.


Thank major,
as I know, TCM forklift brand of Nissan, in my country seen very much.
For 1st BT motor, Can you suggest me a suitable controller???


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

asimor said:


> For 1st BT motor, Can you suggest me a suitable controller???


I try not to  Any of the "good" controllers from a "reputable" source should work with the motor. I do suggest you start a build thread or check out the controller sub-forum here. Also see what others are using in the garage list or evalbum. I suspect other members will offer opinions.


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## dtmpower (Dec 15, 2009)

How about this one ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=281186578516&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160


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## abelenkiy (May 25, 2012)

bump.... No suggestions?



abelenkiy said:


> Good evening (or whatever time you are reading this) ladies and gentlemen.
> I have just aquired a used forklift motor, and wanted to see if anyone has any information on its full specs and if possible a datasheet.
> The tag is very hard to read, so some of the numbers may be letters or similarly stamped numbers.
> Meidensha Electric Co
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

abelenkiy said:


> Good evening (or whatever time you are reading this) ladies and gentlemen.
> I have just aquired a used forklift motor, and wanted to see if anyone has any information on its full specs and if possible a datasheet.
> The tag is very hard to read, so some of the numbers may be letters or similarly stamped numbers.
> Meidensha Electric Co
> ...


Sorry, typing impaired, one finger only 

motor - probably good - need photos.

Curtis - must use per nameplate only.

maj


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Major,
One finger? Accident? Are you going to be OK?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Major,
> One finger? Accident? Are you going to be OK?


carpal tunnel surgery primary hand


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the recovery.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Had it done to both hands. I also went to therapy and they used ultrasound to help break up the scar tissue. Worked great. Don't like the scars but they are hardly noticeable. 

Had to fix our house generator today. Mouse got in and chewed a wire in two. Found it and now we are back running. Going to put screens on the openings to keep them out of the generator enclosure.


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## abelenkiy (May 25, 2012)

Hope your hand is better.
Thank you for answering.

I got some pictures, hopefully they help. Zipped up.

I can spin the motor by hand.
Also i tried putting 12V onto the two terminals and got the motor stop and not be moved by hand. Release the 12V and can spin by hand again.
Cant find any other terminals. Only two mounts on the opposite side, i assume they are at the same potential as the metal case.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

abelenkiy said:


> Hope your hand is better.
> Thank you for answering.
> 
> I got some pictures, hopefully they help. Zipped up.
> ...


nice lookin motor, except....... when they removed the pump, they took the DEH, drive end head, and bearing


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## abelenkiy (May 25, 2012)

Is there any way i can get the replacement parts? I cant seem to find any info on this motor brand, even emailed the company in Japan, no reply.
Is that why its not spinning, due to missing bearing?

Thank you
Alex B


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

abelenkiy said:


> Is there any way i can get the replacement parts? don't know I cant seem to find any info on this motor brand, even emailed the company in Japan, no reply.
> Is that why its not spinning, due to missing bearing? yes
> 
> Thank you
> Alex B


major............


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## Deeks (Oct 10, 2013)

Anyone know anything about this motor Advanced D.C. ACX-2019? It is supposed to be AC. I am trying to convert a VW Bug. This motor indicates 16kW @ 30V AC - wondering if it can handle 96V? Looks like the motor is sealed - could be a problem cooling.

The guy who has the above motor also has this:









No identifying plate. 10" long and 9.5" diameter. Out of a forklift and DC.
He also has this:








The Advanced DC part number is 203-18-4001. 7.5" diameter and 12" long

Which of these motors if any is useable for a Bug? Not looking to build a rocket - but need highway speeds.

Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## Deeks (Oct 10, 2013)

Woops, sorry about the scale of the top images. They were scaled on my screen. Oh well.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Deeks said:


> Anyone know anything about this motor Advanced D.C. ACX-2019? It is supposed to be AC. I am trying to convert a VW Bug. This motor indicates 16kW @ 30V AC - wondering if it can handle 96V? Looks like the motor is sealed - could be a problem cooling.


I was not aware Advanced DC made AC motors. Throw up a pic. Also, increasing voltage to AC motors isn't like doing so with DC. You have to maintain the frequency relationship. The controller is the key.



> The guy who has the above motor also has this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks like a short stack 9 incher which used the small comm. I'd stay clear of it.



> He also has this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pics are not good, but if it is the 7 inch size motor, it might work for you. Might need some extra cooling.


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

Howzit from Cape Town, South Africa

I have a similar Advanced Dc motor and the Curtis controller that came out of a motorized pallet truck..
I was looking at building an electric bike but decided that the motor was way too big so am now considering something like a Lotus 7 kit car..

Off the subject... I was looking at the Tesla drive-train - looks like a motor connected to a differential and then straight to the wheels... apart from the obvious reverse issues, what are the other down sides of this type of design????

I will scratch out the motor and see which one it is..


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

Could also dump it in here......


Just thought of something....the Curtis controller has a reverse switch, so going back to my original question....how does the Tesla drive-train compare considering that an auto gearbox saps horsepower....I've read that a TH350 or R700 uses up to 40bhp..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesla uses a single speed differential and electronically reverses the motor direction. Highly efficient. Also remember the Tesla motor turns at 16,000 RPM max so doesn't need a multispeed transmission.


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## Deeks (Oct 10, 2013)

Here is a photo ACX-2019 AC motor


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Tesla uses a single speed differential and electronically reverses the motor direction. Highly efficient. Also remember the Tesla motor turns at 16,000 RPM max so doesn't need a multispeed transmission.


My point exactly....why use a heavy power sapping gearbox to drive a differential (anywhere from a 2,88:1 to a 4,7:1 ratio)???

I am new to the electric car game and dont have all the answers...yet
I believe in reading everything I can find, before spending money. So far I have the motor and controller which I picked up for R500.00 (that's about USD 40.00)

Going back to my question... The Curtis controller has a reverse switch so that solves the reverse problem, what are the benefits of having a gear-box as opposed to just connecting the motor direct to a high ratio differential?

As to the high rpm of the Tesla motor, I thought that max torque would be at a lower rpm

I've been looking at the Jaguar IRS and the Tesla design and wondering if it would be possible to connect a DC motor direct to the pinion shaft (or via a 10:1 reduction box)...everything depends on when the torque kicks in - if its at the bottom it could be tricky in traffic but managable. If it kicks in at a higher rpm, maybe a mechanical slip-clutch of sorts would be needed???


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GaryFrank said:


> Going back to my question... The Curtis controller has a reverse switch so that solves the reverse problem, what are the benefits of having a gear-box as opposed to just connecting the motor direct to a high ratio differential?


Which model Curtis? Post up pics of the motor and controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesla uses around a 9.7 gear ratio and a motor that carries it's full torque to about 6,000 rpm. Finding components anywhere near those numbers will be difficult.


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

The motor spec's:
Advanced DC Motors, Inc.
Part No: 305880-000 BF6-4003
Volt Dc: 24
Serial: 3777
Rating: AV2500 05-04-00 
(I sent these specs to Advanced at the beginning of the year - still waiting for a reply)

The controller is a Curtis PMC 1244-4404 

I also attached the golf cart transaxel.....very similar to what I am thinking about but using a Jaguar IRS


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GaryFrank said:


> The motor spec's:
> Advanced DC Motors, Inc.
> Part No: 305880-000 BF6-4003
> Volt Dc: 24
> ...


That's a nice motor and controller, but 24V, maybe 36V. So you can expect maybe 10 hp peak, 4 hp for one hour. Not what is required for an EVcar intended for public roads.


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

Pity....maybe I should stick to the electric bike idea...

Attached a pic of my present project...a Casspir, so after this a electric bike should be no problem...


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## jjmillsy (Jul 17, 2012)

Not quite from a forklift, but what does everyone think of this one?

Smith electric milk float motor TD460 DC (direct current) 100 amps 6.3 hp 60 volts 2000 rpm £125 collected.

Roughly 11" x 20". Would the rpm be limiting for a car based conversion?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-MILK-FLOAT-MOTOR-/321229601486?pt=UK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN&hash=item4acac6bace

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jjmillsy said:


> Not quite from a forklift, but what does everyone think of this one?
> 
> Smith electric milk float motor TD460 DC (direct current) 100 amps 6.3 hp 60 volts 2000 rpm £125 collected.
> 
> ...


I mention RPM in post 4 on this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90329 I'm not sure what you're asking. You need to use the appropriate gear to match RPM and mph. With large commutator motors, especially older vintage, I'd recommend top vehicle speed at 3000 RPM. Once you have the motor, you can test it and if it runs smoothly and has good bearings, use it to 4000.


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## jjmillsy (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks major. I guess what I'm asking is would this be suitable for an RX8 conversion, running 144v with a suitable controller. I saw skoolers thread originally and was inspired and am now researching all the options for motors and trying to find one that would be usable.

I need to maintain a speed of at least 70mph as my commute to work is mainly highway driving, with correct gearing 2nd/3rd, depending on ratios etc could this motor work?

I've only just started out researching so have a lot of questions, but appreciate all the help that is provided here on this forum


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

jjmillsy said:


> Thanks major. I guess what I'm asking is would this be suitable for an RX8 conversion, running 144v with a suitable controller. I saw skoolers thread originally and was inspired and am now researching all the options for motors and trying to find one that would be usable.
> 
> I need to maintain a speed of at least 70mph as my commute to work is mainly highway driving, with correct gearing 2nd/3rd, depending on ratios etc could this motor work?
> 
> I've only just started out researching so have a lot of questions, but appreciate all the help that is provided here on this forum


Will be fine (it will make the car move).

It's quite hard to advise without knowing your budget, performance and range requirements. I'd start a conversion thread and discuss there. Its not cheap!


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## EVBradley (Nov 6, 2013)

Hi all.
I bought this Raymond order picker kinda on impulse and I'm hoping it can be used for an EV project. My hopes are to do either a VW bug based EV or a home built reverse trike. Heck, I'd probably even be happy with a lawnmower project. The motor is about 12"x7". measured from about the front end cap to the rear, not counting that black hockey puck looking thing on top. 24V. Just want a bit of reassurance that this motor isn't a waste of time before I start tearing it apart. Thanks.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I'm not the best one to give feedback, but I think you might be able to make it work if your car is really light and you are not looking for high performance. You don't give any goals for speed, weight or performance, but as for suitability, there are some other things to consider. it looks like the drive mounting flange is part of the drive end mounting plate. If it is, it may or may not be in the way and require machining. The cables are different sizes which may mean it is a sepex motor. Look and see if the field windings are wrapped with fine wire(sepex). Sepex motors are have less options for good controllers. You will probably have to limit your voltage to 60-72 volts which will probably mean in town only use. Brushes look good but the comm looks grooved in the pictures. Hope that helps a little.


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## EVBradley (Nov 6, 2013)

Thanks for the reply.

I have a couple of different possibilities for EV at this time. One is a VW Bug based kit car, ~2000lbs, and the other is a tandem reverse trike made with a beefed up ATV front and motorcycle rear swing arm. ~1000lbs. Range would be about 20 miles and I could live with 40 mph, preferably 55 though.

Machining the flange would be no biggie. I own a 1/3 share in a 12" lathe and can do basic machining operations.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

My guess, and it's just a guess based on other posts I've read, the reverse trike would be the better choice for that motor. You might get it to work in a 2000 lb car, but performance would be poor and the motor would be working hard all the time. If it is a sepex motor that could still be an issue for you. You may want to check out EV Album or the garage here for what others have done.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Gents (and ladies), what do you think to a motor with the following specs on the data plate:
48V, amps 288, rating 60 mins, 11kw, dc motor bs1727, type ser ip20, two terminals (labeled A and S). It also has two small 2 blade connection sockets. One of them is labeled "Therm" so I guess that's fairly obvious, the other is unlabeled so........ no idea. Any thoughts?

The motor is ex forklift and dimensions are listed as: 36 x 25cm and weighs ~60kg. It also has a female splined shaft  (and the guy doesn't have the matching male bit unfortunately). 

From what I've read on here so far, this motor looks to be in the right ball park to drive a small car such as a saxo at decent speeds (assuming sufficient battery punch available). Does this sound about right?


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## sunny2014 (Jan 3, 2014)

Hi,everybody! I'm a electric fans, I like all kinds of electric cars, electric cars conveniently, no pollution is one of the most important, I saw it on ABOK I love electric vehicles, to share


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## hankjay (Jul 28, 2013)

An electric vehicle is only as poluting as the electricity generation. We still have brown coal generation plants in Australia and the majority of our electricity is still generated using coal, so not so clean. Unbelievable really if you take into account that our country could be run by solar and wind if the powers to be tried. So if you want your electric vehicle to be clean, produce your own by using PV and don't take this as a negative for electric cars or other electric modes of transport. I have plans to build one myself, but I am a bit disappointed to keep on hearing the same fallacy.
In other words an electric vehicle is only as clean as the energy that is used to proplel it. I'm getting of my soap box now.
Hank


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Producing your own is best but don't forget that Ev's are 4-5 times as efficient as ICE's so there is still a measurable difference in terms of pollution.

That's why many Ev's have great range on the equivalent energy of less than a gallon of gas.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

None of these posts are relevant to this thread.


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## dcbusman (Aug 13, 2013)

I have a 4 post drive motor from a Toyota forklift and I want to change the rotation, at the moment 2 posts are bridged with a short lead, so is it a case of moving the bridge to the other 2 terminal posts ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dcbusman said:


> I have a 4 post drive motor from a Toyota forklift and I want to change the rotation, at the moment 2 posts are bridged with a short lead, so is it a case of moving the bridge to the other 2 terminal posts ?


No, it will rotate the same way. 

Reversible series wound motors need 4 terminals; two for the armature (A1 & A2) and two for the series field (S1 & S2). Europe and Asia may label them differently, but the connection and function are the same.

CW rotation: A1 to battery. A2 to S2. S1 to other battery terminal.

CCW rotation: A1 to battery. A2 to S1. S2 to other battery terminal.

To identify the terminals; A1 and A2 connect to the brushes. S1 and S2 connect to the field coils.


----------



## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Gents, what do we think of the following motor?

Thrige-Titan drive motor from a Boss 2 tonne forklift. Data plate reads as follows: 

Thrige-Titan Electric A/3 Denmark
TTL160 B-COMP (manufacturer model number?)
Sach Nr. 032311 (serial number?)
13.2kW
S3 15% (is this the duty cycle?)
80V
Excitation *blank* V *blank* A
Max 10000 min-1 (-1 is a superscript)
Code no 2159228 (Boss forklift part number?)
3200 min-1 (-1 is a superscript)
Class H 26kg
218 A
IC01 IP00

Motor appears to have 3 terminals on a box that is bolted to the side of the motor. 2 terminals are linked with what appears to be a fairly chunky copper bar. It also has what looks like a cast blower fan on the rear end, and a hydrolic pump on the drive end.

From what I've read this would be about the right size to shift a small car like a saxo reasonably well. What do we think?


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Anyone know of any leads for forklift motors in the DFW(Texas)? needing to find something for my crawler project.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Dustin_mud said:


> Anyone know of any leads for forklift motors in the DFW(Texas)? needing to find something for my crawler project.


 
Try forklift repair shops. I found mine by asking a warehouse buisiness where they had their's repaired. The repair shop sold it to me for $50. It is still working after 4 1/2 years of service.


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## Mr. Midnight (Nov 5, 2013)

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/hvo/4252379860.html

sorry huge noob, but is this one good for a dc system?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, it's a 3 phase AC motor.


----------



## Mr. Midnight (Nov 5, 2013)

Is it a good motor for a conversion then?

Edit: after reading, it sounds like it would be too hard for my first conversion anyways


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## franky975 (Apr 4, 2012)

Mr. Midnight said:


> Is it a good motor for a conversion then?


It is an old 3 phase AC motor. It's not for DC setups. Plus casted iron so likely heavy too.


----------



## Mr. Midnight (Nov 5, 2013)

Thanks ^_^, back to hunting


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## Mike_03 (Feb 14, 2014)

Hi all, 
im pretty new to all this and im not sure if this is the right place to post my question.
Im not in a financial situation to be able to do a full conversion for another 6 months atleast until i finish studying. However i have been looking at getting some parts to start off or a cheap small donor car as i have seen how expensive some of these conversions can be. I have come accross an affordable electric motor, and i was wondering if it would be ok to use in a small car conversion, my desired range is about 80-100km and the speed no less than 110km/h.

These are the motor details:
Phase 1
1.5kw
240V
50Hz
F.L. Amps 8.3
F.L. Rpm 2870

I think this might be an industrial motor as it has a chord which can be plugged into a power socket, so im not sure if i can use it for my speed and range requirements.

Many thanks!

Mike


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## aodshocky (Jan 19, 2014)

this is from a clark forklift. both the front wheels have one. I will be extracting them on saturday plus any electronics i can find. any chance of id'ing the motor type from these pics? I will update if i find any id tags on them saturday.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Mike,
It's not what you want for what you want to do. It is too small for starters and it is AC. Unless you have a really good understanding of AC motors and are up to building and inverter, (guys here have done it so it may possible with a larger motor) a DC motor is going to be easier. AC(one designed for EV use) would be better though, I think, for your speed and range requirements, but this won't be the right thread to explore that.
Keep in mind that you are not going to have a cheap conversion if you build for that speed and range, no matter what you do. You don't list your budget, so I don't know what you are thinking of spending.


----------



## Mike_03 (Feb 14, 2014)

Thanks puddleglum, 
That was very helpful, i had a feeling that the motor was too small but i wasnt sure. Initially i was hoping to use an AC motor due to my requirements being so high, and i heard the AC systems can give longer range due to regenerative braking, but i will happily use a DC motor if it can achieve my requirements. The reason i need such a long range and such high speed is because i live about 30km away from work and in the mornings there is heavy traffic but in the evenings the motorway is clear and the speed limit is 110km/h. I have no particular budget yet as im only working part time and cannot afford a conversion now, but im expecting to spend near the $10,000 AUD range about this time next year. What do you think would be the best thread for me to look into?

Thanks

Mike


----------



## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I'm just learning as well and I don't want to get this thread off track again, that has happened too much already, but I will say this. Use the search function to search threads about what you want to know and read everything you can. Check out the Wiki, as it has a wealth of basic info that you need to understand first (like calculating your power requirements) You will never get that kind of speed and range on that budget though. The battery cost will be close to that.


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## Mike_03 (Feb 14, 2014)

Yep thanks, ill do more searching of the threads. If 10k is not enough ill just have to wait to save up some more. Thanks again!


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

aodshocky said:


> this is from a clark forklift. both the front wheels have one. I will be extracting them on saturday plus any electronics i can find. any chance of id'ing the motor type from these pics? I will update if i find any id tags on them saturday.


Did you end up getting these? A lot of forklifts with dual motors have Sepex drive motors. If you had the S/N off the forklift, I might be able to help ID them.


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## aodshocky (Jan 19, 2014)

puddleglum said:


> Did you end up getting these? A lot of forklifts with dual motors have Sepex drive motors. If you had the S/N off the forklift, I might be able to help ID them.


i did get the two motors. here are the pics of them. i was told they where series wound. they posts are marked s1 s2 a1 a2

included is the id plate as well.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

From what I can find they should be series wound. You can confirm that by checking if the field windings are heavy wire. What are you planning to use them for? They seem pretty small for a car. Also they are only 24 volt so you won't be able to go crazy with the voltage.


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## aodshocky (Jan 19, 2014)

def not for a car, i have a project over in non road vehicles in mind that i think they will work out perfectly for.


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## PhilHughes (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi All,

Been searching for a very long time for info on this question and have found some of the answers from some of the clearly very knowledgable users of the forum. I am now however at a point in my project where I am in essence stuck so thought I'd ask here 

I am trying to repair a 1992 electric reach truck which has problems with it's drive motor controller. The motor is OK I think and is mounted on a single castor which the steering system rotates. The drive from the motor is via a belt which allows slippage if the wheel is inhibited. I have deduced it's the motor controller that has failed and caused a lack of drive.

I'm not sure what kind of motor I am dealing with as, although it has 4 terminals like a series wound, control of direction is achieved by connecting a supply between either the 1D1 and A2 terminal (Forward drive) or the 2D2 and A2 terminal (reverse drive). The fourth terminal (A1) does not seem to be connected.

The system has been working fine for years and nothing has changed so the configuration is correct. I have two contractors which connect either the 1D1 or 2D2 terminals to the controller / varying supply to dictate travel of direction and these are fine.

My problem is that I need to replace the controller but am unsure how to connect it given this setup. The controller I'm looking at is:

http://www.curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Datasheets.downloadmanual&prodid=552

Does anyone have any ideas how this would work and / or what type of motor / setup I'm dealing with?

Thanks for reading this and I hope you can help.

I have attached a sketch of the current setup as far as I can tell and a picture of the terminals on the motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Phil,

It may be a split series motor.









This would appear to be the case. I think you could wire it to the curtis controller. You'll need to do some rewiring because the old controller was a high side chopper (Bat neg to motor) and the Curtis is a low side chopper (Bat pos to motor). And if the truck plug reverses you'll need to wire both A1 and A2 per the Curtis wiring diagram and because the split field is hard wired in the motor, the A1, A2 is reverse labelled. In other words, Curtis shows the field to armature connection on A2. Your motor has it on A1. So just reverse the labels A1, A2 on your motor.

The split series thing is a guess on my part. Confirm it for yourself


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## PhilHughes (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi Major,

I really appreciate your reply on this, I was unaware of the name of this design 'split series' but had my suspicions there were probably two coils involved. I can now properly sketch the current circuit diagram and fit the new controller in as you suggested. I need to check that the chassis connection is in fact -Ve rather than +Ve (this was an assumption on my part).

Will keep you posted on progress, thanks again. 

Phil


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## haylon1 (Apr 10, 2014)

Hi im new to this whole electric vehicle thing and im tryna learn more about it and where i can get motors and stuff... btw i live in the caribbean


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## Pbk (Jun 3, 2012)

Haylon1 
Try boat yards, airports,equipment rental yards, distribution centers, repair shops, etc. be creative any place you see junk stop and ask .


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## d3adp00l (Jul 17, 2013)

Generally forklift motors arent enough for a vehicle, just suck it up and get a decent 9" or larger motor, I have seen good motors down in the 1350.00 usd range, which is plenty affordable. If you cant afford that for a motor, I have no idea how you will be able to afford a battery pack of any real useful range.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

d3adp00l said:


> Generally forklift motors arent enough for a vehicle,......


That would be generally incorrect as a global statement. Fork motors come in many flavors and sizes. Some are large enough to power full size cars and more.


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## wesleygerald (Apr 16, 2014)

I too like electric vehicles the most.. Can you suggest me whether the Mitsubishi forklift be used in the electric vehicles?? Will it be fine or I need to use some other equipments for increasing the power of my car?? And also want to know if it is suitable for the counterbalance forklift??


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## d3adp00l (Jul 17, 2013)

wesleygerald said:


> I too like electric vehicles the most.. Can you suggest me whether the Mitsubishi forklift be used in the electric vehicles?? Will it be fine or I need to use some other equipments for increasing the power of my car?? And also want to know if it is suitable for the counterbalance forklift??



What are the specs on the motor? HP, voltage, insulation rating, amperage, etc. They have a few different motors, and finding specs on them is difficult because they dont really seem to sell to the open market.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

d3adp00l said:


> Something tells me you like to argue for the sake of itself.


No, quite the contrary. I just don't appreciate incorrect information being posted. This thread contains dozens, perhaps hundreds of successful applications of forklift motors to power electric cars. I think that indicates that generally a decent size forklift motor can be adapted to power an EVcar. And the Netgain Warp, ADC, and Kostov EV motors are in fact basically forklift motor design and construction.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

d3adp00l said:


> If you can get one for free or for a few hundred bucks and its in good shape, and is the right size then its not a bad way to go.


I think you said all here...
And I add than it can be a good way to go


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm not a Troll and always learning things as a member.
And I know sometimes forum members can be drive-by passion flinging angry people. Hope this doesn't cause any anger. 
No one ever stops learning in life, only when dead.
Aren't the forklift motors very heavy and larger than others?
Aren't they all brushed commutators?
There seems to be a lot of passion on both sides of the motor argument.
Wish there was a simple pros and con motor comparison chart that everyone could consult.
I'm hoping that the knowledgeable EV builders can shed some friendly light on the subject.


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## d3adp00l (Jul 17, 2013)

sunworksco said:


> I'm not a Troll and always learning things as a member.
> And I know sometimes forum members can be drive-by passion flinging angry people. Hope this doesn't cause any anger.
> No one ever stops learning in life, only when dead.
> Aren't the forklift motors very heavy and larger than others?
> ...



Very aptly put.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Duncan said:


> So you whole argument falls -
> there are no alternatives unless you are willing to spend $12,000+ on a motor/controller


That's not really true. HPEVS has a number of decently sized AC motors, and there are a good number of Siemens motors from the Azure bankruptcy available as well.


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## d3adp00l (Jul 17, 2013)

Duncan said:


> I'm still waiting to hear about your motor



I use a kostov 10" I like the fact that timing is neutral and that Kostov has made changes to an original design for use in stuff like forklifts to make it better suited to an EV. I did have an advanced but it died when the vehicle was improperly towed by a friend. They didnt realize electric motors offer little resistance while still in gear, and the electric motors do in fact have rpm limitations which can be exceeded when in 1st gear going 55mph. 
<SNIP>


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## d3adp00l (Jul 17, 2013)

Ok well its been fun playing, but I have to move on for the day, maybe I will catch up with all you haters tomorrow and read how you pick apart every word I posted so you can satisfy some weird fetish that you know everything and I am just completely wrong. I had something very sarcastic ready to post, but I will save that for later, hopefully its not needed.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi D3ADP001
<SNIP>
A Kostov is just a modified forklift motor


Hi JRP3
Those AC motors will be just adequate - you need to spend a lot to get decent performance from an AC system
(Comparable to a DC (forklift) motor and a Soliton)

Saying that if I was rich I would be trying to get an AC Propulsion unit and in a few years we may be able to get decent AC systems for a decent price


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

d3adp00l said:


> I did have an advanced...


Meaning a series wound motor in a 8 or 9 inch diameter frame made by Advanced DC out of Syracuse, right? They made a line of motors for forklift trucks which were basically copied from Prestolite Motor Company. They took the design from a traction motor used on 4 wheel counterbalance fork trucks and altered the shaft to a keyway, used a simple C face DEH and twisted the CEH a few degrees for advance. Then run a curve at 100V and and tagged it for EV converters. 

The 36/48V counterbalance forklift truck has been a workhorse of industry for like the past 70 years. There are thousands in the field. Most use a 9, 11 or 13 inch diameter traction motor. When those trucks die, the motor is often still running strong. These salvaged motors are excellent candidates for the do-it-yourselfer who would rather put in some elbow grease than lay out 2 or 3 thousand dollars for a new DC EV motor which is basically the same core. That's what this thread is about.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

OK...ENOUGH.
This thread is for people to say: I have a motor salvaged from an xyz model forklift. It weighs qr pounds, has xyz dimensions and seems to have 4 terminals labeled outy. Is it viable for use in a diy project weighing rte pounds where I want to reach mn km/hr?
Knowledgeable people will help you answer that question.
The last 20 or so post are out of line and I will delete them tomorrow when I have time. If anyone persisting responding to extraneous posts from this time forward, I will l ban them temporarily or permanently as I see fit. DON"T post anything on this thread that does not address the OP objective. Start another thread if you want to argue.
Gerhard

So I have removed a number of argumentative and unpleasant posts. I hope no one is too insulted, but now back to business. GRP


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## Topper (Apr 19, 2014)

i have a yale fork lift i have taken apart. the service manual is for several models from 2500 to 4000 lb capacity, only date i could find was 1987. 
It came with a c and d Technologies power solutions charger (model, sfr18a340).

it used a ge ev-1 controler

pump motor. Eaton. type, m. part, 7206610-01. diameter, 7.5 inches. lenth 12.5 inches. 

Traction motor. eaton. type, 951. part, 721920-01. diameter, 9.5. and lenth 12.5

any info on these items for ev use would be great


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Topper said:


> i have a yale fork lift i have taken apart. the service manual is for several models from 2500 to 4000 lb capacity, only date i could find was 1987.
> It came with a c and d Technologies power solutions charger (model, sfr18a340).
> 
> it used a ge ev-1 controler
> ...


It was probably a 36 or 48V truck. Eaton made good solid motors. The traction motor would likely be better suited for an EVcar. Your charger would probably be for 240/480VAC 3 phase and for lead acid. The controller, if it still works, could be used but only at the original voltage.


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## Topper (Apr 19, 2014)

it is a 36 volt. the charger is 110 input 36 out and had lead acid batts. do you think any of this stuff would be of value to anyone as i dont really have the money or a place to do the work anymore. i was thinking the pump motor would make an cool pickinic table for campgrounds. everything worked but someone torch the mast off before i got it the controler didnt work though the accelarator petal though i could move foward and backwards by pushing the contactors.


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## duranza (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey guys. I finally found a place I can get a motor for my 1990 crx conversion. Will this be a good enough motor? I think is around 7-1/2 to 8 inch diameter by 13 inch long. The only bad I see is that it's a pump motor. Thanks for your input.

Jonathan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I don't think anyone here will recognize the Raymond P/N. Photos of the motor showing important parts including the comm and brushes would help draw opinions.


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## duranza (Aug 27, 2009)

This is what it looks like taken apart. It has 4 poles dual brushes. The front has a female spline and has a bearing on the motor plate not inside the pump.

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

That appears to be the 7.2 inch 33 bar design. It is a strong motor and good size brushes. Might be on the light side for a 4 passenger EVcar if you expect sustained highway speed, but would likely make a decent grocery getter around town surface street job. But you have the shaft internal spline to contend with.


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## duranza (Aug 27, 2009)

So if I keep the crx light weight 2 seater, will it be ok even with it being a pump motor? The pump has the male spline shaft that I can make the adapter from. Thanks so much for your input. This thread keeps me motivated seeing so many people doing their conversions.

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## duranza (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey guys how about this motor? It is 7 1/2 inches diameter 16 inch length. It weighs in at 120 pounds. It does have a fan in the front. This motor looks well made with bearings on both ends and pvc insulated wires in between the rotor lamination. Thanks for your input. 

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The old Norwood Allis Chalmers pump motor. Likely late 60's early 70's vintage. Good solid design. Brush pigtails look a little on the thin side. Other than that, nothing wrong with the electromagnetics. Just have to deal with the internal spline shaft.


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## duranza (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey Major,

Which one would you recommend out of the 2 I have to be better suited? They both need spline adapters, so I'll have to machine one. Also do you recommend using any degreaser to wash the dirt and oil off? or just dish soap and water?

I guess it's time to start my own build thread... 

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd go with the first one from the Raymond. I think it is class H, fatter brush leads and aluminum end heads so maybe 20 pounds lighter. Soap and water.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

can anyone tell me more about this 2 speed pump motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

It's a bit hard to see the field coil configuration from the photo. But a 3 terminal series 2 speed motor can have one field terminal put 4 coils in series for low speed and the other field terminal just use 2 coils in series for high speed leaving 2 coils unexcited. The 2 excited coils would be on opposite poles (180º across the frame from each other).

Just had a discussion including consequent poles here (for another reason): http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95861 

Oh, and I like what you're doing with those other motors; just didn't get back to my PM's yet


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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Albano, what is the outside diameter of your motor? It looks a bit like mine which is from their traction line, 221 mm dia. 6kW for 1h; 48V/148A.
Here's company website with some (poor) data: http://bestmotor.it/frameset_ei.html
Nameplate with "Ecc: SER" - this would imply series motor and Major already explained field configuration 

edit: from nameplate I think this is the one: http://bestmotor.it/28.html (ver. 9000); am I right?


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

found another pump motor and was wondering if this motor has enough torque and if it good enough for motorcycle drag.... it a 8.6 " 220mm and 
65 bars com


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi albano,

It looks pretty strong. Maybe a bit shy on brush area, but I think you're running under 1kA. You can do the math for torque: 1150 RPM, 11.5kW at 330A. Proportion out to your current limit and you got it. That S3 15% means 90 seconds at 330A. Not too shabby. What do you have planned? 15 seconds or less? Maybe give it a bit of advance. Might be set on neutral for a 48V pump motor. You find some nice machines over there 

major


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

major, could you explain the relationship between 15% and 90 seconds? (I'm curious about how these things are rated.) TIA


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Frank said:


> major, could you explain the relationship between 15% and 90 seconds? (I'm curious about how these things are rated.) TIA


IHIGMMC (I Hope I Got My Math Correct) 

On the nameplate we see S3-15%. S3 is an European agency specification meaning a 10 minute based duty cycle for rating motors. 15% of 10 minutes is 90 seconds, IMMIC (If My Math Is Correct). 

Of course on a duty cycle rating the motor runs at rated load (11.5kW in this case) for 1.5 minutes and then is off for 8.5 minutes and then on for 1.5 minutes then off for 8.5 minutes..... repeated until motor temperature stabilizes within the limits of the insulation system.

In the USofA, we used to use a 5 minute based duty cycle rating system for fork pump motors. It is just a way to attempt to make the rating system somewhat resemble the application. Obviously one can not run the forks up continuously on a lift truck. But on the other hand, a 10 second based duty cycle was a bitch to do.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

major said:


> Hi albano,
> 
> It looks pretty strong. Maybe a bit shy on brush area, but I think you're running under 1kA. You can do the math for torque: 1150 RPM, 11.5kW at 330A. Proportion out to your current limit and you got it. That S3 15% means 90 seconds at 330A. Not too shabby. What do you have planned? 15 seconds or less? Maybe give it a bit of advance. Might be set on neutral for a 48V pump motor. You find some nice machines over there
> 
> major


Thank Major,

Yes we have lots of machine in our yard, just trying to find another 8" 14Kw motor as I sent you but still no luck..... someone stole my other 14Kw motor the one on my profile picture's field coil  now just have to try and have it made if I can't find another motor soon..


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## wesleygerald (Apr 16, 2014)

d3adp00l said:


> What are the specs on the motor? HP, voltage, insulation rating, amperage, etc. They have a few different motors, and finding specs on them is difficult because they dont really seem to sell to the open market.


Thanks for your reply. But, can you suggest something else for it?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

major, thanks for the explanation.


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## marius (Nov 20, 2013)

Hello, 
I want to ask opinion abaut dc motor I found, but not yet purchased, price is around 200$. Motor is from soviet union times and forkifts under old kostov name, balkankar . I'm told it was the drive motor. 

It has 4 brushes, they are abaut 1 inch lenght, in the datasheet I think is newer version of that motor, the middle one. On the back it has a fan.
weight is 66Kg that is 145lbs, diameter is close to 9", rated 75V 48A 1400RPM S1

I'm planing to convert vw scirocco mk2, using zilla 1k hivoltage, that I already own, target cruising speed 60mph.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi mar,

It looks like a decent motor; perhaps a bit beat up, but they can take it  Series wound which is good. 9 inch diameter---- not too bad; about right for a small/mid size car. 36V rated with no interpoles so you may need an advance for higher voltage use.

The main concern is the comm and brush size. This may be a contributing factor for the 54A one hour rating. The 1kA Zilla will be overkill for this motor. If you feel your application needs the capability of a 1kA Zilla, I suggest you look for a similar size or larger (10 or 11") motor and most importantly one with about double the comm size and number of brushes.

Regards,

major


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## Wilfred (Mar 26, 2014)

Hello there! I've just been trying to get through this forum... Although it is 100 pages long so I haven't made it very far. Either way, I stumbled upon a motor on eBay and was wondering if you guys could help me out a bit.

http://m.ebay.ca/itm?itemId=271153613541

I know its pretty light compared to what most people are using, and it has a female connector
... But would it still be enough to power a car? Im planning on doing a cabriolet which has a curb weight of 2500 lbs I believe


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Wilfred said:


> Hello there! I've just been trying to get through this forum... Although it is 100 pages long so I haven't made it very far. Either way, I stumbled upon a motor on eBay and was wondering if you guys could help me out a bit.
> 
> http://m.ebay.ca/itm?itemId=271153613541
> 
> ...


It is a SepEx wound 6.6 inch diameter motor for direct couple to axle and therefore has no provision for a drive end bearing. It is used for JD electric gator. Not much more than a golf cart motor. Forgetaboutit


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I ran into an issue that I don't remember being discussed in this thread, (though I might have missed it), and thought it worth describing. I bought a rebuilt motor and the output shaft got really warm while running it on 12V. I noticed the seal on the output bearing looked like an oil seal, not a grease seal you'd expect on a bearing. Sure enough, Major explained that in the original application this motor is attached to an oil filled gearbox, and the oil seal is intended to keep oil out of the motor. Without the oil the seal and shaft will get hot. So if you aren't running it in oil pull the seal out.


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## Wilfred (Mar 26, 2014)

Ya I was 95% sure it wouldn't work but I couldn't see why exactly


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## Rory166 (Jul 6, 2014)

I have a Fiat seicento running with a forklift motor which I know little about. The motor seems to get too hot in use. Climbs relentlessly to 70 C when the sensor maxes out.

What info should I collect when I examine the motor? Is there a particular thread to look at?

Where would I find information on how to adjust the brush timing in case this helps? Fortunately with a gearbox it only runs one way.

The battery is 25 cells 200Ah Hi-Power and I see 250 Amps on the display when accelerating.

Rory


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Rory166 said:


> I have a Fiat seicento running with a forklift motor which I know little about. The motor seems to get too hot in use. Climbs relentlessly to 70 C when the sensor maxes out.
> 
> What info should I collect when I examine the motor? Is there a particular thread to look at?
> 
> ...


70ºC may not be too hot. Most fork motors are class H (180ºC). So it depends where that measurement is collected and the enclosure/ventilation of the motor. Not many fork motors come with sensors. Did you add it?

Photos and system description would help us understand your EV. Is that battery or motor current you display? Is motor temperature your only gripe? How long and at what load in what conditions is that 70ºC observed?


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## Rory166 (Jul 6, 2014)

It takes about 10 mins at 150 A battery current to reach 70 C. No other gripes, performance could be better. Battery is quite old and about half the cells do not hold their voltage well under load. The temp sensor will be an added item. I must replace it with a higher range device. There is an electric fan cooling the motor but not well enough apparently.

Rory


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## boomn89 (Jul 19, 2014)

I am looking at two different items First is a Eaton motor that has a diameter of 7 5/8 and 12" long. I can not find any other info on it.















Second Option is buying a Allis Chalmers ACE-40K A 48V Electric Forklift and using this motor and scrapping the rest.















I have added the name plates that I could get pics of for some extra help.


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## Rory166 (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi Boomn

It seems a bit extreme to buy a whole forklift just for the motor. The reason for using a forklift motor is low price. Otherwise an AC motor that can regenerate simply by using a stock controller must be a better option. I have been buying used AC motors and controllers quite cheaply recently.

Rory


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## boomn89 (Jul 19, 2014)

Rory166 said:


> Hi Boomn
> 
> It seems a bit extreme to buy a whole forklift just for the motor. The reason for using a forklift motor is low price. Otherwise an AC motor that can regenerate simply by using a stock controller must be a better option. I have been buying used AC motors and controllers quite cheaply recently.
> 
> Rory


The forklift as a whole is $750. That's why I would buy it. Not sure what to look for or how big on a AC motor.


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## Rory166 (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi

I suppose $750 is quite cheap as you can probably get most back in scrap.
I would sell the batteries separately as they are worth more than steel. My Fiat Seicento has a forklift motor and I rate that as just adequate as it get hotter and hotter in use.

Ac motors mainly come from HPVS and AC-35 for light vehicle or AC-50 for heavy. The controller may cost as much or more than the motor. As with DC you need to run a much higher voltage and power than the 1 hour continuous spec.to get satisfactory acceleration.

Rory


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

boomn89 said:


> The forklift as a whole is $750. That's why I would buy it. Not sure what to look for or how big on a AC motor.


Try to get a look at the condition and size of the motors in the forklift. Unless they have been severely abused, I think it would likely be the better option. The pump motor may work in a small car okay, but you have the internal spline to contend with. You may be able to part out the truck before you scrap it and get the motor you want for free, or even make a little. You may have two usable motors in the forklift ( depends on what it has for a pump motor) and there are other parts like cables, fuses, throttle pot, etc. that may be worth hanging on to as well)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I second Puddleglum,

There are probably over $750 worth of EV bits on that forklift,
Cables, Contactors, conections,
Keep everything remotely useful looking

When you come to sell the bits left over the forks and mast are worth a bit
Local farmers bolt them to the rear of their tractors 
The batteries are probably worth $300 is scrap - and the steel left over about $700


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## boomn89 (Jul 19, 2014)

puddleglum said:


> Try to get a look at the condition and size of the motors in the forklift. Unless they have been severely abused, I think it would likely be the better option. The pump motor may work in a small car okay, but you have the internal spline to contend with. You may be able to part out the truck before you scrap it and get the motor you want for free, or even make a little. You may have two usable motors in the forklift ( depends on what it has for a pump motor) and there are other parts like cables, fuses, throttle pot, etc. that may be worth hanging on to as well)


Unfortunately the lift is about 5 hours from me so I wouldnt know much till I got there. The guy im buying it from says it weighs about 6000 pounds.




Duncan said:


> I second Puddleglum,
> 
> There are probably over $750 worth of EV bits on that forklift,
> Cables, Contactors, conections,
> ...


He had someone else come over to buy it and they took the forks and the battery only instead of taking the whole thing.

Ill see if I can get him to take some pics of the motors.


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## boomn89 (Jul 19, 2014)

I found an owners manual and this is what is listed:

Drive Motor
Model no. 8614612-0(I found it to be a KALMAR motor)
10.29HP 1300RPM 36V 268Amps 1hr duty 

Pump motor
Model no. MJV-4006(no idea who made it)
7.6hp 2750RPM 36v 125Amps 1/2hr duty


That is all I have found for info.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boomn89 said:


> Pump motor
> Model no. MJV-4006(no idea who made it)
> 7.6hp 2750RPM 36v 125Amps 1/2hr duty


Looks like a Prestolite part number. MJU-4006 would make more sense for a lift pump motor.


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have been using a forklift motor since '09. Recently I had the bearings replaced. They wanted to turn the commutator so they did. Same brushes and springs.

Now I can feel a strange sensation as if it is missing ,sort of . This is mostly noticed at a steady rpm not under acceleration.

There is no vibration. I don't feel it in the gear shifter. Kind of like I feel it in the steering wheel. There is a point in the rpm's that one can hear the motor electrical sound. That is not a good description but it sounds like electricity.?? During this period I can here the(miss). Kind of a wa wa wa wa type noise.

When I brought the motor home I ran it about 30 hours to reseat the old brushes. I noticed that all the comm bars were not taking the patina at the same rate.

I thought maybe it was a warped brake rotor sticking off and on or maybe the tires have become out of round or something.

If anyone has heard of anything like this I would appreciate the info.

Thanks
Alvin


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Never mind I found the problem. A bad rear tire. The tread was slightly separated .

Alvin


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## AJS (Nov 1, 2014)

Hello! I hope someone could help me choosing a motor for my project. I found two Thrige Titan 315a motors for sale. 120v 268a. Weight over 130kg. Any good for BMW e36 cabrio conversion? What would be right price for those motors? Im going to use soliton jr or soliton 1 for controller.

This is my first post but I have been reading this forum for over year. So much information!


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Hope someone can tell me if the following motor is any good for something like a saxo.

It's from a Nissan 25 forklift which ran at 48v dc. The motor has a hydraulic pump with 1 inch pipes mounted to the end but does appear to have an end plate. The motor is marked 15kw and 80V. Does that mean that the motor was massively under clocked in its original home? 

The same seller also has an 11kw one from the same truck with similar markings. Would either of these be any good?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AJS said:


> Hello! I hope someone could help me choosing a motor for my project. I found two Thrige Titan 315a motors for sale. 120v 268a. Weight over 130kg. Any good for BMW e36 cabrio conversion? What would be right price for those motors? Im going to use soliton jr or soliton 1 for controller.
> 
> This is my first post but I have been reading this forum for over year. So much information!


I have no idea what a Thrige Titan 315a motor is and neither does google  I might be able to help you, but it isn't polite to make me work to do so. Post detailed descriptions and photos please.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mechsman said:


> Hope someone can tell me if the following motor is any good for something like a saxo.
> 
> It's from a Nissan 25 forklift which ran at 48v dc. The motor has a hydraulic pump with 1 inch pipes mounted to the end but does appear to have an end plate. The motor is marked 15kw and 80V. Does that mean that the motor was massively under clocked in its original home?
> 
> The same seller also has an 11kw one from the same truck with similar markings. Would either of these be any good?


See my previous post. I have no idea what a saxo is  And post photos of the motors, nameplates and/or links please.


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## AJS (Nov 1, 2014)

major said:


> I have no idea what a Thrige Titan 315a motor is and neither does google  I might be able to help you, but it isn't polite to make me work to do so. Post detailed descriptions and photos please.


I forgot to mention that I will get better pics of that motor today or tomorrow. Here is the only pic I have now.

http://image.nettix.fi/extra/partimg/1925201_1925300/thrige-1925230_b_b95e68a83a4b69c6.jpg

It is Thrige-Titan TTL 315a motor from GMC 45 forklift.
120v 268a

Model numbers?
1775197
3227031-8741

Thank you for any help!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AJS said:


> I forgot to mention that I will get better pics of that motor today or tomorrow. Here is the only pic I have now.
> 
> http://image.nettix.fi/extra/partimg/1925201_1925300/thrige-1925230_b_b95e68a83a4b69c6.jpg
> 
> ...


Now google gives me this http://www.t-telectric.com/pdf/amp.pdf 88 page catalog. Man, I really have to work to help you don't I?

At near 300 pounds, it sounds on the heavy side but maybe not too much so compared to the likes of a Warp11 which some guys use. Your numbers come out to about 32kW which isn't bad either. Price depends on condition and what the market is. Find the local scrapper price for iron and offer him twice that for starters.


----------



## AJS (Nov 1, 2014)

Im just wondering how much more volts and amps would that motor take. Or should I buy some netgain motor. I can get that thrige motor under 400e.

I cant find specs for that motor from that pdf..?


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

major said:


> See my previous post. I have no idea what a saxo is  And post photos of the motors, nameplates and/or links please.


Sorry, a saxo is a small hatchback car made by citroen. It is also the same as a peugeot 106. Kerb weight is about 900kg depending on which version it is.

The motor is currently on UK ebay with the following number 331328572290 but the listing doesn't tell a whole lot.


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## AJS (Nov 1, 2014)

Here is more pics. I know im newbie. So I must ask is this series wound motor or sepex? If its series wound I will buy it and try how much it can take. Thanks for any help!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AJS said:


> Here is more pics. I know im newbie. So I must ask is this series wound motor or sepex? If its series wound I will buy it and try how much it can take. Thanks for any help!


That is a serious motor. I see interpoles making it good for high voltage without the typical brush timing advance. Also 12 brushes. Look at that beautiful commutator film. From what I see it is series wound or heavily compensated shunt wound. There are a couple of smaller gauge wires on the terminal plate which could be for a shunt field. Great looking motor. I'd love to see it running doing some work, but it might be overkill for your EVcar conversion..... not that there is anything wrong with that


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mechsman said:


> Sorry, a saxo is a small hatchback car made by citroen. It is also the same as a peugeot 106. Kerb weight is about 900kg depending on which version it is.
> 
> The motor is currently on UK ebay with the following number 331328572290 but the listing doesn't tell a whole lot.


It does appear to be the main or lift pump motor so may have the balls to do the job for you but as I have said about pump motors many times here: Is it correct direction of rotation? They're typically not easily reversed. And 99% chance it will be a bitch to couple to the motor shaft because it will have an internal spline or some other pump mate.


----------



## AJS (Nov 1, 2014)

major said:


> That is a serious motor. I see interpoles making it good for high voltage without the typical brush timing advance. Also 12 brushes. Look at that beautiful commutator film. From what I see it is series wound or heavily compensated shunt wound. There are a couple of smaller gauge wires on the terminal plate which could be for a shunt field. Great looking motor. I'd love to see it running doing some work, but it might be overkill for your EVcar conversion..... not that there is anything wrong with that


Thank you so much! I was thinking that it might be good motor but I just had to be sure. I might buy both motors. Do you know how high voltages/amps it could take? I was thinking of pairing this with soliton 1 controller.


----------



## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

major said:


> It does appear to be the main or lift pump motor so may have the balls to do the job for you but as I have said about pump motors many times here: Is it correct direction of rotation? They're typically not easily reversed. And 99% chance it will be a bitch to couple to the motor shaft because it will have an internal spline or some other pump mate.


Ok thanks. I will ask the seller what the intended rotation direction is. The motor still has the pump bolted to it so I figured I could use the pump shaft as a basis to build a coupler. What I'm worried about is whether the motor will have enough balls for the job or am I better holding out for a bigger one?


I also found this motor (321551908695) on ebay but I'm pretty sure that won't be up to the job?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AJS said:


> Thank you so much! I was thinking that it might be good motor but I just had to be sure. I might buy both motors. Do you know how high voltages/amps it could take? I was thinking of pairing this with soliton 1 controller.


No guarantees, but I think it would take all that controller can dish out, for long enough to get your car moving plenty quickly.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mechsman said:


> I also found this motor (321551908695) on ebay but I'm pretty sure that won't be up to the job?


That's the old milk float motor. Several guys on this forum have used those. I can't speak as to how pleased they are. Maybe search for that.


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## GaryFrank (Oct 26, 2013)

GaryFrank said:


> The motor spec's:
> Advanced DC Motors, Inc.
> Part No: 305880-000 BF6-4003
> Volt Dc: 24
> ...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GaryFrank said:


> GaryFrank said:
> 
> 
> > The motor spec's:
> ...


----------



## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

What are the chances that something like this has a motor or two big enough to run a Rio at city speeds with a 5-speed?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ikidd said:


> What are the chances that something like this has a motor or two big enough to run a Rio at city speeds with a 5-speed?


Maybe 38.2%

Raymond made good equipment and used solid DC motors from Prestolite, GE and Advanced during the era or vintage of that truck. However, that particular truck may be a low power 24 Volt model with motors about the size of those found in electric golf carts. The pump motors are often of no use on EVs and the traction motor is questionable.

Adding to the uncertainty of your question is my non-familiarity with a Rio and what you consider city speed. 25/35mph NEV stuff or 65mph beltway?

The better EVcar motor transplants come from counterbalance or sit-down rider forklifts with single motor drive axles.


----------



## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

major said:


> Maybe 38.2%
> 
> Raymond made good equipment and used solid DC motors from Prestolite, GE and Advanced during the era or vintage of that truck. However, that particular truck may be a low power 24 Volt model with motors about the size of those found in electric golf carts. The pump motors are often of no use on EVs and the traction motor is questionable.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I'm working with a Kia Rio 5 speed and looking for maybe a max of 80kph but usually start and stop at low speeds for commuting, rarely freeway.

I figured the traction motor might be capable. These seem to be the only thing I can find advertised. Perhaps the full size ones get scooped up by the repair shops quickly.

I'll keep looking, thanks for the advice. I"m guessing actual model numbers might help, huh?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ikidd said:


> I"m guessing actual model numbers might help, huh?


I remember few truck model numbers. Some older vendor motor numbers. Most helpful are photos of the motors including nameplate, output shaft, frame with size reference and shot of a brush holder and comm if possible.


----------



## luch (Apr 21, 2009)

Hi Im kinda new here Ive been lurking for 4 years and just restarting my project.

Anyone know how to remove the traction motor out of a NYK stand up forklift?
I removed all 4 bolts at the bottom the motor will rotate on the mating surface and come up a sixteenth of an inch. I wrapped a chain around the brake at the top and tried gently to pull it up out of the spline with my tractor front loader but it wont come up. 

I moved the debris shroud out of the way but all I see is the fan casting. 


Thanks in advance


----------



## luch (Apr 21, 2009)

Is this pump motor going to work for my 93 Geo Tracker 4x4?

Its 8.5 inch diameter 112 Lbs. Name plate says 2.2Kw @ 45 VDC. It has 2 bolt connectors for power. 







Spins counter clockwise. I have notes on changing the internal jumper. It has a internal spline I'm planning on disassembling the pump head and using the spline shaft for a output shaft/coupler into either a aluminum direct drive Powerglide or Ford Courier 4 speed. 

I plan on running 72 volts. The Tracker will weigh apx 2600 Lbs with 8 12v Costco deep cycle floodies with no driver. 

What I'm not sure of is the low 2.2Kw @ 45v rating. Iv'e misplaced my notes on the math for converting Kw to torque and horsepower. 
Also the spline shaft should it free float or do you recommend welding it in? 

Thanks Larry


----------



## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

Hi,
I was recommended to come to this thread as I am choosing a fitting motor for my EV project.
I am doing this in Africa, so finding a good DC motor is not as easy as it is over there.
What I currently have is a motor that is equivalent (exactly like) this and this and the car is this (weighs about 1100lbs, is rear-driven and I will use its existing gearbox)
I understand the motor may not be ideal, but do you think it can work at all?
Thanks!


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

yodahea said:


> Hi,
> I was recommended to come to this thread as I am choosing a fitting motor for my EV project.
> I am doing this in Africa, so finding a good DC motor is not as easy as it is over there.
> What I currently have is a motor that is equivalent (exactly like) this and this and the car is this (weighs about 1100lbs, is rear-driven and I will use its existing gearbox)
> ...


Hi yoda,

Neither of those motor will do. No specs are shown on the first one but it has a cable lead which indicates to me that it is of low power, lower than needed for that car. And the second motor, a GE, shows the nameplate. A shunt motor: not good. 48A with 1.4A for the armature. That is 67 Watts. Or like 1/10th of a horsepower. Way too wimpy for a car. Better keep looking.

major


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## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

major said:


> Hi yoda,
> 
> Neither of those motor will do. No specs are shown on the first one but it has a cable lead which indicates to me that it is of low power, lower than needed for that car. And the second motor, a GE, shows the nameplate. A shunt motor: not good. 48A with 1.4A for the armature. That is 67 Watts. Or like 1/10th of a horsepower. Way too wimpy for a car. Better keep looking.
> 
> major


Thanks Major!
Didn't realize that what I found was shunt wound. So the search continues for a series wound...
Will update


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

luch said:


> Is this pump motor going to work for my 93 Geo Tracker 4x4?
> 
> Its 8.5 inch diameter 112 Lbs. Name plate says 2.2Kw @ 45 VDC. It has 2 bolt connectors for power.
> 
> ...


Hi Larry,

I posted a reply to this yesterday and it somehow is lost. So this is a test. I'll edit this post later with my thoughts.

major


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## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

*A 4KW DC motor from a Crusher*

Hi,
I found the motor attached below.
The tags are in russian  but from what I understand it is a series wound DC motor rated at 4KW, 22V, 2800rpm and weighs about 34kg.
Any recommendations for a small vehicle here.
Thanks!
[/ATTACH]


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: A 4KW DC motor from a Crusher*



yodahea said:


> Hi,
> I found the motor attached below.
> The tags are in russian  but from what I understand it is a series wound DC motor rated at 4KW, 22V, 2800rpm and weighs about 34kg.
> Any recommendations for a small vehicle here.


That appears fairly typical for pump motors addressed in this thread multiple times. Primary issues: output shaft. Internal splines or stub tang drives are difficult if not impossible to couple to car driveline. And, 2 terminal motor. Unidirectional. Correct rotation direction? Reversing is difficult requiring internal modifications.

Other than that, motor looks sound. With higher voltage, maybe twice RPM, some current overload with additional ventilation, you could see 8 to 10 kW, but not for long. It could push that car using the proper gear, but not at hiway speed. 

Cheers,

major


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## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

*Re: A 4KW DC motor from a Crusher*

Thanks Major,
I'm going to go ahead and check on the shaft issue. The one directional rotation is not a problem because I will use the existing car's gearbox.
Hope to make the purchase today if it all pans out.
Jah bless!



major said:


> That appears fairly typical for pump motors addressed in this thread multiple times. Primary issues: output shaft. Internal splines or stub tang drives are difficult if not impossible to couple to car driveline. And, 2 terminal motor. Unidirectional. Correct rotation direction? Reversing is difficult requiring internal modifications.
> 
> Other than that, motor looks sound. With higher voltage, maybe twice RPM, some current overload with additional ventilation, you could see 8 to 10 kW, but not for long. It could push that car using the proper gear, but not at hiway speed.
> 
> ...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Be careful you don't end up with one forward gear and 5 reverse.


----------



## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

major said:


> Be careful you don't end up with one forward gear and 5 reverse.


lol, yes, going on 5th gear in reverse should be fun!
I bought the motor after checking that it rotated counterclockwise, (which I think is the ICE's direction of rotation...I figured because the engine fan rotates counterclockwise). After deICEing, I hope to find out that it is actually that way!
If not, i hope that rewiring the DC motor so that it rotates the other way won't be that difficult.
Jah bless!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I believe Honda engines rotate the other way to most - so If it is the wrong way you may be able to use a Honda gearbox


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> I believe Honda engines rotate the other way to most - so If it is the wrong way you may be able to use a Honda gearbox


The earlier ones (most D, B, F, & H series, etc) do, the more modern (K-series, etc) turn the same direction as most other engines. Easy way to know, if the motor is in the car, is which side the belts and accessories are on - driver's side is opposite rotation, passenger side is "normal".

When using the terms counterclockwise or clockwise you have to specify which end of the motor you're facing.


----------



## yodahea (Feb 4, 2015)

toddshotrods said:


> The earlier ones (most D, B, F, & H series, etc) do, the more modern (K-series, etc) turn the same direction as most other engines. Easy way to know, if the motor is in the car, is which side the belts and accessories are on - driver's side is opposite rotation, passenger side is "normal".
> 
> When using the terms counterclockwise or clockwise you have to specify which end of the motor you're facing.


Ya, you're right. It rotates counterclockwise with you facing the motor's rear-end (so, looking at it from the shaft-end, it rotates clockwise).
The car is a Toyota Starlet, so I think its engine rotates counterclockwise like most cars.


----------



## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

Hi there I'm quite new to ev conversion, I have read a load of books watched endless videos on conversions but i'm still confused about what motor to get. I have a skoda fabia classic 2001 and intend to use a series wound dc motor, however in the UK we don't have much ev suppliers and the ones we have cost an absolute fortune. ideally I want to use a forklift motor, would this one be any good? 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271523605239?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT 

the specs are;
MCF DC Electric Forklift Hydraulic Pump Motor 36/48 Volt 12.7KW 17HP 2050rpm


Condition: *Used*
Consigner: *C*
Weight (lbs, oz): *168*
Warehouse Location: *S5313*




 Bullseye Catalog #: 45221​
Brand: MCF
Model: 97220-05200
PN 97220-05200 Out Of A 2EC25 Caterpillar
DC Volts 36/48
RPM 2050
KW 12.7
Duty 20% Class H
Ser WN-9-1708-WN
Fits a Pump With a 3/4""-11 spline shaft and 2-Bolt Mount With a 4"" diameter pilot
Weight: 168 lbs
 Oh and I want to use the car on the motorway/ highway
many thanks if you can help


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

A.godfrey said:


> Hi there I'm quite new to ev conversion, I have read a load of books watched endless videos on conversions but i'm still confused about what motor to get. I have a skoda fabia classic 2001 and intend to use a series wound dc motor, however in the UK we don't have much ev suppliers and the ones we have cost an absolute fortune. ideally I want to use a forklift motor, would this one be any good?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271523605239?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> ...


Sure looks like a GE motor. And that is good. Very robust. But has an internal spline shaft. I don't know how you would couple it to your driveline. And bid price plus post from Indiana will cost a bit, then add the shaft modification or adapter.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
It will cost a pretty penny to get that shipped from the USA

There are lots of companies that use electric forklift in the UK
anybody dealing in food or furniture will be using electric to avoid any smoke contamination

Look for forklift repairers in your area - or motor re-winders


----------



## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

Thank you for the advice, another question if you dont mind, what sort of HP rating should I go for? from what I gather from the books I have read it says 30 hp or around that? 

Thanks


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I haven't seen any motors at that sort of power level
My 11inch Hitachi is 10Kw

In the forklift it was rated at 10Kw (13hp) - and 48v for one hour
That is about 200amps and less than 2000rpm
That means that at 2000rpm its fan is good enough to cope with 200amps

In my car I'm using 130v and up to 1000amps and 4000rpm

My take is that the higher rpms mean that can give it more than 200amps for as long as I like 

I go well over the 200 amps in accelerating - but only for a short time

So I will be using it at 200amps x 130v continuous = 26Kw = 34Hp

But I will be able to give it 130v x 1000amps for acceleration = 130Kw = 170Hp


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

I am using an ex milk float motor, its quite big and heavy but designed as a traction motor so will go all day.

I got mine from a guy on Ebay called Magoo he is down the bottom of the M1 area Chelmsford or something like that right out in the countryside
.
Anyway he breaks milk floats and has all sorts of good stuff there, motors, welding cable and is I think reasonable with his prices, I paid £125 for my motor.
It says 46v on the motor but that doesn't mean too much, I am driving it at 154v when the batteries are charged.
You can see my motor in this link 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/converting-my-2001-volvo-v40-75026.html


He is a bit difficult to get hold of but he will reply to you eventually.


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## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

Thank you all for your help, I thought I would need some super dupa motor. I looked at buying one from a company called AVT but the prices they were quoting were ridiculous for my budget. some of the motors were up to £2000. I'll see if I can get in contact with that guy who sells milk float motors.


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## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

John siddle with this motor were you driving it at motorway speeds? 60-70 mph?

he's currently got this motor up for grabs, any good?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smith-ele...hicles_DiecastVehicles_JN&hash=item4ae4122d32 

funnily enough its listed under games and toys


----------



## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

Hey I also found some more forklift motors. the guy seems a bit vague on the specs but I believe he has 1 x 45volt at 3.36kw and 2200rpm,1 x 48volt at 9kw and 2900rpm any good? plus a load more all for £300 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORKLIFT-MOTORS-/251846912332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aa33ee94c

Probably a bit hard to tell from the photos he's put up.

Thanks


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

A.godfrey said:


> John siddle with this motor were you driving it at motorway speeds? 60-70 mph?
> 
> he's currently got this motor up for grabs, any good?
> 
> ...


60/70mph I wish, when my batteries were in good condition I got 55mph around the village easily. 
The motor was running at about 4k rpm at the time and would quite easily have gone faster but I ran out of road.
The speed you can get depends on the vehicle you are using and the batteries.
My volvo estate is quite big and the batteries weigh about 200kg plus they are only 88Ah and crap.

I am hoping that when I get some Lithiums things will improve considerably.
I don't need my car for motorway driving just local village to village work.

That motor Magoo has looks a lot like mine they are well built have big fans fitted and are designed to pull a milk float which when fully loaded can approach 5 ton in weight. (they are geared down a lot but the motor spins quite high) also they are cheap and designed for the job.
I was a bit confused by the description of DC series wound 240v. I have only seen milk floats carrying 48v battery packs.

The pump motors you attached does not say much but I think the consensus is that pump motors do not have good cooling and so only run for short periods. plus they are difficult to mate to the gear box. Others will correct me if I am wrong on that score.

I think Magoo is your best bet, make sure you get one with a coupling and ask him if he has any welding cable he can sell you its about 8/10mm dia and you can always double it if you get enough.
John


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## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

johnsiddle said:


> 60/70mph I wish, when my batteries were in good condition I got 55mph around the village easily.
> The motor was running at about 4k rpm at the time and would quite easily have gone faster but I ran out of road.
> The speed you can get depends on the vehicle you are using and the batteries.
> My volvo estate is quite big and the batteries weigh about 200kg plus they are only 88Ah and crap.
> ...


Thanks for the advice I went to see mangoo (Ian) last week and he gave me a good deal. I got mine for £100 as I went to him direct. Really nice guy and knew his stuff. Luckily he is only a half hour drive from home so if I need anything else or cables I know where to go. on my motor I only have a almost figure of 8 shape coupler, so that will be interesting to couple. Started to take apart the car now. exciting stuff


----------



## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

Well done.
take pictures and post them so we can see your progress.
John


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## A.godfrey (Feb 25, 2015)

hey Iv started my blog if anyone is interested, lots of dismantling done so far! http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/blog.php?u=105818


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## MaxP (Apr 24, 2015)

Hi All,

I'm new to this forum, and new to EV conversions for that matter. I have been reading quite a bit about EV conversions for the last few weeks though, as I am hoping to convert a 1992 Toyota Celica.

I have been keeping an eye out for cheap motors, but I find it difficult to evaluate which ones are best. After looking for a while of searching on eBay, I picked out the following two:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crown-W6AB0...804?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e814b4cc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MCF-DC-Elec...869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item540afcfd05

Little did I know that for the second one, A. Godfrey had picked out the exact same one from the same seller in Indiana:



A.godfrey said:


> Hi there I'm quite new to ev conversion, I have read a load of books watched endless videos on conversions but i'm still confused about what motor to get. I have a skoda fabia classic 2001 and intend to use a series wound dc motor, however in the UK we don't have much ev suppliers and the ones we have cost an absolute fortune. ideally I want to use a forklift motor, would this one be any good?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271523605239?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


Anyway, I'm sorry for the long post, one obvious drawback to both of these motors is that they both have female splines.

Major, you've pointed out a few times that working with a female spline is difficult if not impossible. But from what I can tell, BenNelson, and others have managed to do it. If I find the correct shaft to fit it, and find suitable adapters or make something like BenNelson did using a matching splined centre of an old clutch plate, could I not weld together a coupling?

Is the problem with doing it this way that unless everything is perfectly lined up, there will be cyclical stresses which will eventually break the welds?

Some further background is that I hope to get the Celica for ~$600, an unused second-hand Curtis controller (1231-C 400) for ~$700, and use 10 or 12 restored 12V lead acid car batteries for free or <$200, so I'm hoping to end up with a very low cost electric car. Range and top speed don't have to be very high.

All comments are extremely welcome, and sorry again for the super long message!

Thanks,
Max.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The GE motors are excellent motors for conversions. Try to find one with a proper shaft and in good shape and you won't be disappointed


----------



## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

hi all,

I've been keeping half an eye out for a suitable motor for conversion of something like a peugeot 306. I've seen a motor with the following spec and wondered what you guys think to it:

Cat/ Mitsubishi hydraulic/power STEER motor*
Cw pump*
Part number 9742010400 72/80 volt*
11'2/12'8kw 1520/1730rpm

Seller says dimensions are approximately 27cm diameter by 42cm long (57cm long with pump mounted).

Anyone know anything about this motor? The seller has a couple of other motors that might be suitable as well.

What do you think?


----------



## MaxP (Apr 24, 2015)

Hi Mechsman,
I will preface this message by saying that I am new to EV conversions as well, and so what I am writing here is just my opinion from having read through quite a lot of material online about EV conversions.
So it turns out that I have that exact motor on my watchlist! I've also contacted the seller, but I don't think I'm ready to start on an EV conversion yet, so I won't swoop in and nab it from you.
From what I have read, this seems like an ideal motor. From the pictures, it looks like it could do with some cleaning and maybe replacing the brushes, but at the price that it's listed for, I think it's a good deal.
Also, from what I understand, the convention for the direction of rotation of pumps and motors is taken when looking at the shaft from the outside of the motor/pump. So in this case, a CW pump will mean that the motor will spin CCW which again, as far as I know, is the same as _most_ ICE engines, but not all. As far as I know, some of the engines in the earlier Hondas rotate the opposite direction, so as long as you're not converting an older Honda with a stock transmission, I think this rotational direction should be fine.
So to recap, I think this is a good find, but you should wait for confirmation from someone more knowledgeable.
Max.

Edit:
Here's an image to help demonstrate what I was trying to explain regarding rotational direction convention for pumps and motors. I believe pumps and motors are both treated the same for this convention.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

hi Max,

Wow, small world huh? I'm guessing that you're based in/around the sellers location then?

I got dimensions for the motor from the seller and they said roughly 50cm long by 27cm diameter, so actually it's more beefy than it looks in the picture. 

The main potential concerns I had with it were 1. that it's noted as a steer motor so im not sure what the duty cycle is like, 2. the rated voltage is already so high that it's going to need a hefty controller and battery part to give it any get up and go, and 3. the rated rpm might not give much scope for accelerating past that rpm as I don't know how much more it could take.

Thanks for the info on pump rotation notation, I wasn't aware of that. I did wonder if the seller ment that, or simply abbreviated "comes with" pump?


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## RobertEMellish (May 1, 2015)

Hi everyone, i'm new to this forum and i've just started working on my own Electric Motorcycle. The donor is a CBR600RR and the motor is of a Caterpillar M50. I can't find any details for the motor though. The plate on the forklift says 72V 365Ah, and the plate on the motor was painted over and all i can make is: 
Caterpillar
BKB, Birmingham England 
3C01119
53016/121
Series Wound. 

Here's some pictures of the motor: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17352711021/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17352714941/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17353086815/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17145652557/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16730595284/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/17327139836/in/photostream/

It's big and it seems powerful, and it's alive! 
Hope someone can give me more details! 
Thanks, 
Robert E Mellish, 
Cyprus


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RobertEMellish said:


> Hi everyone, i'm new to this forum and i've just started working on my own Electric Motorcycle. The donor is a CBR600RR and the motor is of a Caterpillar M50. I can't find any details for the motor though. The plate on the forklift says 72V 365Ah, and the plate on the motor was painted over and all i can make is:
> Caterpillar
> BKB, Birmingham England
> 3C01119
> ...


Hi Rob,

That is actually a nice motor. Has interpoles, I think. Needs some TLC but might run as is. I think it is too big for a 2-wheeler unless you're into drag racing. My guess is about 10-11 inch diameter and 250lbs. I'd suggest a 7-8 inch diameter motor. 

Good luck,

major


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## RobertEMellish (May 1, 2015)

> That is actually a nice motor. Has interpoles, I think. Needs some TLC but might run as is. I think it is too big for a 2-wheeler unless you're into drag racing. My guess is about 10-11 inch diameter and 250lbs. I'd suggest a 7-8 inch diameter motor.


Yes Major, it has interpoles and the brushes are big, they are also in good shape. Also the motor is actually 12inches in diameter and i'm going to slice a piece of the frame to make it fit (i am going to reinforce where needed). The only thing i don't know is the RPM of the motor. I'm not building a drag racer, it's more of a "wanna bet that an electric bike can be faster than your hayabusa?" kinda thing. I only need about 10km (6miles) of range so the battery pack is not an issue. A top speed between 100-150kmh (60-90mh) would be awesome. But what i really want is to use the torque of this motor, i want the bike to accelerate to it's top speed in 3-4secs max! I now the torque will allow me to play around with the sprockets since it's of a 7000kg forklift. And i would consider a 144V or more conversion to get more RPM out of it if i need to. But one question remains.. I don't know the factory RPM.. 

Thanks, 
Robert E Mellish, 
Cyprus


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It will probably run on 12 VDC, at about 12/72 or 1/6 rated speed. So if it's a 1200 RPM motor it should run at about 200 RPM. This would be only a rough estimate, especially (I think) for a series wound motor.


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## RobertEMellish (May 1, 2015)

PStechPaul said:


> It will probably run on 12 VDC, at about 12/72 or 1/6 rated speed. So if it's a 1200 RPM motor it should run at about 200 RPM. This would be only a rough estimate, especially (I think) for a series wound motor.


Good idea, it won't be an exact number but it will point me in the right direction! Thanks Paul!


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## frank lamonte (May 14, 2015)

Hi new guy here to forums and ev conversions. Am thing about doing one but dont know where to start. Should I get a donor car first or find a dc motor first? thanks......frank l.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

frank lamonte said:


> Hi new guy here to forums and ev conversions. Am thing about doing one but dont know where to start. Should I get a donor car first or find a dc motor first? thanks......frank l.


Frank, 

Get your car first then build around that. Don't buy components first as you will likely get stuff you can't use. 

Figure out your budget and what you want. Remember sports cars are fun but not very practical commuters. 

Pete


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## frank lamonte (May 14, 2015)

Thanks i will be hunting for a small car a geo or escort etc. Thanks frank


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## mechano (Jun 1, 2015)

Hi, I have seen a forklift motor in junkyard, it looks like a small one for a car conversion? what do you think?
I am new to electric conversions: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/planning-1980-vw-golf-mk1-conversion-158922.html


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

mechano said:


> Hi, I have seen a forklift motor in junkyard, it looks like a small one for a car conversion? what do you think?


4 terminals and 2 brushes per pole. That seem a good motor.... for a motorcycle!
Yes, it will be to small for a car. It seem to be a 6 inches motor similar to those one on golf cart.
For your lightweight car you are looking for a 8 or 9 inches motor (diameter of 20-23 cm).
Good luck.


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## mechano (Jun 1, 2015)

Yabert said:


> 4 terminals and 2 brushes per pole. That seem a good motor.... for a motorcycle!
> Yes, it will be to small for a car. It seem to be a 6 inches motor similar to those one on golf cart.
> For your lightweight car you are looking for a 8 or 9 inches motor (diameter of 20-23 cm).
> Good luck.


Thank you very much, If I can not find a bigger motor in junk yard I will be considering a 9" kostov motor, since they are in Bulgaria not far away from me.
the 9'' kostov has high and low voltage versions, have to decide which one to choose..


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## mechano (Jun 1, 2015)

I found some more fork lift motors, this blue motor is big like 10" diameter,
sadly it has nothing written on it, so I have no idea about the voltage or power, either it is series wound or not.
Will it be good for a VW golf project, any ideas?


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## mechano (Jun 1, 2015)

Here is another option, again something like 9 or 10", on the plate 48V 6kW is written, 6kW sounds little but is it possible to use with higer voltage and have more power temporarily?
Is this a better option than the blue one previously I posted.
Thanks for the opinions in advance.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Need to get a good look at the brushes
Either one could be fine
Don't worry too much about the 6Kw - my motor is badged 10Kw and I'm using it direct drive - no gearbox at all

You need to get a look at the field coils - a series motor will have big copper - possibly rectangular section "bars" - if the field coil is thin wire then its not series wound and controllers become much more difficult


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

mechano said:


> 6kW sounds little


6 Kw or less is only what you will need to move a lightweight VW at city speed.
This kind of motor (serie would DC*) can give way more peak power for short term for the acceleration. And to increase continuous power (to go on highway, by example) you will need to run the motor at higher voltage by advancing the brushes.

Also, because 125A for 60 min isn't a lot, you can add a external fan if you run for long time at highway speed.

*Verified the wires with the advice from Duncan.


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## dcbusman (Aug 13, 2013)

Need some advise on a forklift pump motor Ive found, this is all thats on the tag... 36-48V Type 75AA Part Number 8620081 Serial # 32276 AU2201.
Its about 14" long and 7" in diameter, it still has the pump attached to which is a bonus ( for the male spline ) I plan on using this motor in an electric motorcycle, any thoughts ?


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I'm wondering, how high can you go with the voltage without needing to advance the timing on a typical forklift motor? I know some forklifts run at 80 volts nominal so I would expect them to see 88-90v charged, maybe as high as 100v hot off the charger. Would that be a reasonable high limit? Sorry if this has been answered before.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
My tuppence worth

High voltage is needed for high rpm's

If you are not using high rpm and high current then your motor will not "need" high voltage and your controller will not feed it high voltage

If you are using high rpm's then you will need advance to reduce the arcing at the brushes caused by the fact that the brushes are no longer doing their make and brake at the "sweet spot" 

Battery voltage is not an issue UNLESS you are operating in the "Controller flat out at 100% mode"


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> I'm wondering, how high can you go with the voltage without needing to advance the timing on a typical forklift motor? I know some forklifts run at 80 volts nominal so I would expect them to see 88-90v charged, maybe as high as 100v hot off the charger. Would that be a reasonable high limit? Sorry if this has been answered before.


Hi
I assume you are talking about electric motor. No timing needed! No engine crank etc. If the electric motor you find has say greater than 180V dc rating, then it might be possible to assume a "H" category winding. That from memory is what you should be looking for - higher insulation properties of the winding.

Assuming you find a much higher voltage DC motor, and it suited your needs, it might pay to test just run it at the voltages you are able to produce. If it does the job, well its OK. If it does the job and burns out, then get it rewound with wire that has the higher insulation properties.

Hope this helps

Rob


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

If you *can* find a forklift motor that operates at 80-100V you probably wouldn't have to advance brush timing for regular street use. Of course, everything depends: pack voltage, controller settings, desired speed, quality of existing brushes, etc. etc. 

Advancing timing is not that difficult. You remove the end cap with the brush gear and drill new holes in the motor case. You have to be a bit careful with layout if you do it yourself, but any semi-competent machine shop should be able to drill new holes with "good enough" accuracy.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Okay, here's my thoughts. Feel free to tell me it's a bad idea. I recently wrecked out another forklift with an EV100 controller and a couple more decent motors. I'll post pictures soon. The controller can be configured for 80 volts nominal and 630A. The lift had an 80v option, even though it was only at 36v. 80-90 volts should be enough for an in town commuter vehicle. It has reverse and regen options as well, but they could only be used if I could keep the neutral timing on the motor. I can shut off those features if I had to advance the timing, but they could be nice to keep. I know it is ancient tech by today's standards, but if it would work, it puts me that much closer to being able to actually build something.


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

Hi there,
Would that be the GE controller? 

From my perspective, most DC motors can be driven at higher voltages. And, especially if you are using a PWM driver. How high becomes a test of the insulation properties of the motor. 

It should be possible to construct a high amperage voltage doubler, tripler or quadrupler, etc from the output of your controller. Theoretically, by doubling the voltage you half the current for a given power factor - assuming no resistance losses, which in reality there always are. If you have a high current source, this could be a good option. It is also possible that the motor should run a bit cooler with the higher voltage, providing that you do not exceed the power rating of the motor: e.g. say in your case 28Kw.

One option, quite often dismissed with PWM drives, is the inclusion of an additional flywheel mass. These can be tuned to the PWM drive and enable the storage of energy withing the flywheel mass to be expended during the PWM intervals. An option that does have some merit. Takes a bit of engineering though.

Regards

Rob


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It is not that simple to make a high power doubler or tripler from the controller to the motor. The controller provides a PWM signal up to the battery voltage at 100% PWM. You might be able to make a boost converter using the IGBTs and a power inductor, but it is not easy to provide full 0-100% output with a simple boost topology.

It may be easier to boost the battery voltage a bit higher, but it may not work for regeneration or dynamic braking. However, series motors don't provide that, so it may be practical, but just adding cells is probably more cost effective.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Puddleglum
No problem that would be absolutely fine - 
You will be speed limited, at 80v my (very non aerodynamic) machine would probably top out at about 70Kph
A bit less than 3000rpm and about 100amps
(Hitachi 11 inch motor direct drive)

At those speeds and loads neutral timing would probably be OK


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Thanks, I'm thinking if I keep a transmission, then I might be able to get it a little faster than that, but even 70kph would be enough for any speed limits in town. I have the same Hitachi motor you do Duncan, as well I got these two GE motors with the last acquisition. The drive motor is 11" x 16"







the pump motor is only a 7.5" and is in a little rougher shape but I think it might be useable in a small car. At least it has a male shaft.







. Both of these motors have brush indicators and temp sensors built in. I'm thinking I will try and sell at least one but not sure which.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I don't know about the GE motors but my Hitachi has a fierce Back EMF

With 130v I can only get up to 100Kph
The back EMF cancels out the voltage so that while I start with 1000amps (scalded cat) by 100Kph at 100% from the controller I am down to 200amps
Which basically just sustains 100Kph

A transmission may not help - the old four speed boxes used to have top gear as 1:1 so using a gearbox would not help me as I'm limited by the motor back EMF

I need to get more volts!
With my present controller (a Beta test version from Paul&Sabrina) I can use a lot more volts
I'm trying to get a Leaf battery pack - not sure if I will use the 370v or split it into two strings and use 175v


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I take it its a series wound motor? have you considered running separately excited windings?

you will gain better control of the motor and you can employ field weakening and the windings will see a higher voltage.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

puddleglum said:


> Okay, here's my thoughts. Feel free to tell me it's a bad idea. I recently wrecked out another forklift with an EV100 controller and a couple more decent motors. I'll post pictures soon. The controller can be configured for 80 volts nominal and 630A. The lift had an 80v option, even though it was only at 36v. 80-90 volts should be enough for an in town commuter vehicle. It has reverse and regen options as well, but they could only be used if I could keep the neutral timing on the motor. I can shut off those features if I had to advance the timing, but they could be nice to keep. I know it is ancient tech by today's standards, but if it would work, it puts me that much closer to being able to actually build something.


Hi pud,

I don't think it is a bad idea at all. If you're limited on budget (aren't we all?), it makes a lot of sense.

The voltage doubler idea has little if any merit. It not a power doubler. So what's the point. Just use gears and save a lot of headaches.

Separate excited has been tried and there are a couple of successes documented on this board, but it was not easy for those fellows and I don't think it is a good plan for you. Stick with what you know works. Get it running and then look at improvements.

major


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Duncan, I remember you talking about the back EMF issue a while ago. I am wondering if the field weakening idea might be worth exploring. I know the EV100 has a field weakening circuit so it intended to work with a series motor and it looks like it would be fairly easy to do something similar with a manual control. From what I understand it is just involves putting a resistor in parallel with the field using a contactor. The EV100 has the feature built in and it reduces the current going through the field, gives higher speed with less torque for light load high speed operation. Someone else might be able to explain it better. 

I'm also glad to know that using that old controller isn't a bad idea, thanks.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

From what I know about series wound motors (which is not a lot), it seems that such a resistor across the field would need to be huge and would totally kill efficiency. 

[edit - see corrections below - this is wrong] _If you are running 200 amps at 80 volts that is 16 kW. The voltage of the field and armature may be about equal at 40 volts each. For field weakening you might shunt half the field current through a resistor, which would need to be roughly 40V at 100A or 0.4 ohms and 4000 watts._ 

I think the way this works is that the field voltage drops and the armature must turn faster to supply the BEMF. And it may be that the armature current will also be greater if the load remains constant or increases with speed (as in a vehicle that you want to move faster).

Instead of a resistor, I wonder if a high current IGBT could be placed in parallel with the field and then use PWM to shunt a percentage of the current across the field and into the armature?

Here is some information I found. The following shows some very early EV motor controllers using resistors:
http://www.sunrise-ev.com/controllers.htm

General info:
http://www.galco.com/comp/prod/moto-dc.htm
http://www.ddmotorsystems.com/CurrentRange.php

This shows a field-shunting mechanism used in some railroad locomotives:









http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> ..... The voltage of the field and armature may be about equal at 40 volts each. .....


Don't know where or why you came up with that  Power in the field is just a few percent of total. Maybe that series motor has a field resistance of .004Ω. 50% diverted at 200A would dissipate 40W. These FW resistors are right on the control panels and about the size of a large fuse.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Yes, I was forgetting that the voltage drop in the field is related to its DC resistance but that of the armature is mostly determined by its back EMF. The resistance of the field and armature may be about equal, but the voltages would only be equal during a locked rotor condition. Thanks for the heads-up on this - as I said, I am not that familiar with series wound motors. 

It is an important concept to realize that the field actually consumes no power except as determined by the current and the DC resistance. So a superconducting field would not consume power, and a PM motor does not derive any power from the magnets, so they don't weaken except due to natural demagnetization and effects of heat and perhaps induced current. 

So using an IGBT or MOSFET may not be as efficient as a contactor and resistor, because at 100 amps there would be at least about 1 volt drop and 100 watts for an IGBT. MOSFETs might work, but would need an ON resistance of about 4 mOhm for 400 mV drop and 40 watts dissipation. Since the field may have voltage transients of several hundred volts, the MOSFET would need to be rated for such, or perhaps protected with TVS devices, so a contactor is most practical.

Thanks.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Yes major if you havent got a working vehicle fine stick with what works. but i was refuring to Duncans problem with "back EMF" 

I think standard PWM DC motors and their controllers fall short most of the time 

The PWM is not synchronised with the armature commutation, if you designed a motor controller that used a position sensor you could time the pulses to occur at the best possible torque producing moments in rotation, which would help to increase efficiency under low load conditions and reduce brush wear, also switching frequency of the controller can be lower. 

the advance and retard on the motor should be variable also, and changeable on the fly by the controller

with a series wound motor not having a separate exciter means you will waste power driving the field coil when it has already reached the optimum value, 

The idea with the mosfet across the field windings could and probably would work, but why wouldn't you use the mosfet to drive the field winding directly from the battery in the first place? it will most certainly result in a more powerful motor. and it would be equally complicated either way. i would personally try to use a mosfet a diode and a capacitor.. you just might recover some energy lost in producing a magnetic field in the field windings and you could also at the same time make this system usable for regenerative braking.


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## ourbobby (Nov 28, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> It is not that simple to make a high power doubler or tripler from the controller to the motor.


Hi there,
Just briefly It would be necessary to develop a new controller.

The speak on this thread is not going to produce the results that are anticipated. A fork lift motor and associated controller are not designed for high speed touring and or economy. 

To get the optimum results for an EV will require a complete rethink. going around salvage sites looking for some cheap parts that have been discarded for whatever reason, and what may appear do the job, is clearly no solution. 

Here are some concepts worth considering that I have been working towards. A DC-AC inverter, use an AC motor. Perhaps, one should look at pulsing a DC motor that only uses Negative polarities: i.e. no alternating positive and negative commutator. Instead just a Negative drive system. You might like to reflect on the outcome of the BEMF through using a continuous negative drive controller system. Further, my previous comments on the use of a flywheel mass has merit. Associated with this concept would be the continuous regeneration principle - a self exciting battery charger as the vehicle moves forwards!

Somewhere along the line there will have to be a change in attitude toward an EV evolution.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment on the forum.

Regards

Robert


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

bigmotherwhale said:


> but i was refuring to Duncans problem with "back EMF"


BEMF is not a problem. Duncan likely has an application problem. BEMF is a fact of life and a blessing which enables electromechanical power conversion.



bigmotherwhale said:


> I think standard PWM DC motors and their controllers fall short most of the time


I think you are mistaken. The DC motors and PWM controllers work very well and have done so and continue to do so in millions of applications. 



bigmotherwhale said:


> The PWM is not synchronised with the armature commutation,


And there is no reason to do so.



bigmotherwhale said:


> the advance and retard on the motor should be variable also, and changeable on the fly by the controller


A few have done similar variable advance and had some success. Most serious designers would just use interpoles.



bigmotherwhale said:


> with a series wound motor not having a separate exciter means you will waste power driving the field coil when it has already reached the optimum value,


Nothing is perfect. There are some field losses at heavy loads in the series wound motor, but the characteristic increase in field strength with load provides advantages outweighing those losses and make the series wound DC motors the torque monsters they are.



bigmotherwhale said:


> The idea with the mosfet across the field windings could and probably would work, but why wouldn't you use the mosfet to drive the field winding directly from the battery in the first place? it will most certainly result in a more powerful motor. and it would be equally complicated either way. i would personally try to use a mosfet a diode and a capacitor.. you just might recover some energy lost in producing a magnetic field in the field windings and you could also at the same time make this system usable for regenerative braking.


Again, this has been done. I think a fellow posted such an exercise on this board a while back. It was a special case were they could not get the motor fields rewound. They paid dearly in money and suffered efficiency as a result, but did get the equipment running again after being unable to get proper replacement parts. But in general, it is far easier to rewind than to implement your approach.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ourbobby said:


> Hi there,
> Just briefly It would be necessary to develop a new controller.
> 
> The speak on this thread is not going to produce the results that are anticipated. A fork lift motor and associated controller are not designed for high speed touring and or economy.
> ...


Hi Robert,

Odd. Those re-purposed forklift motors have done a wonderful job in EV conversions for hundreds of folks. There are controllers available for these motor which do a very good job. 



> Associated with this concept would be the continuous regeneration principle - a self exciting battery charger as the vehicle moves forwards!


Concepts like this are only discussed over on our special thread, here: 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html 

Regards,

major


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_BEMF is not a problem. Duncan likely has an application problem. BEMF is a fact of life and a blessing which enables electromechanical power conversion._

Yep - I need more volts!
I like my Hitachi motor just need to feed it a few more volts
The Device goes pretty damn well but there is a guy with a Mercedes SLK that I need to beat at our 1/8th mile drags


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Yes i realise that BEMF is a good thing and im not suggesting you should or can do anything about it. 

I think that the reason that PWM is not a good thing is that it isn't a very good way of matching impedance, a multilevel inverter done with multiple input voltages or using capacitors could be better and result in lower switching losses at lower switching speeds, at lower voltages.

PWM generates alot of noise and transients that cause electrical stress and generate heat. infact you can hear it as a whine the better the controller and the closer the current is to matching what the motor needs the quieter that whine is.

the good thing about PWM is its widely used and is its easy to implement, work well is relative.

the reason to use a position sensor on a brushed motor is because there are areas where peak current is most beneficial ie efficiency and torque and areas that its not, if you are going to turn the motor on and off your better off doing it so the current builds to a peak in the right place. a torque angle of 90 degrees. this will also reduce arching on the brushes.

yes i realise nothing is perfect, im sure you want your torque monsters to run cold 

I have recently acquired a Series would DC motor, 9kw 48volt forklift pump motor for £50 unfortunately this one doesn't have outputs for the stator and rotor they are joined inside I will try a synchronous PWM if i can.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I know I don't know as much as many of you here, but it seems that some of you are looking straight to the most complicated and/or most expensive solution first. I have no idea about efficiency losses by adding field weakening, but I know it is a simple and relatively inexpensive feature that has been used on thousands of forklifts for decades to get more top speed from a series motor without raising the voltage. I was just throwing it out as a cheap option to try before spending money on batteries. I'm surprised it has generated so much discussion.
I think that most of us posting on a thread about using forklift motors and other used parts already know they are not as good or efficient as some of the new tech. It's about trying to make a dream a reality with what you can afford.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Puddleglum
As Major said - just get it working using the bits you have,

If you are driving around town and you are limited in top speed it's no big problem

From my own experience you will probably end up with a list of things to fix/improve

The the field weakening facility on your controller is probably one of them
But you will be able to enjoy your driving project while working out what to do next


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## ev1 dude (Jan 5, 2015)

PStechPaul said:


> From what I know about series wound motors (which is not a lot), it seems that such a resistor across the field would need to be huge and would totally kill efficiency.
> 
> [edit - see corrections below - this is wrong] _If you are running 200 amps at 80 volts that is 16 kW. The voltage of the field and armature may be about equal at 40 volts each. For field weakening you might shunt half the field current through a resistor, which would need to be roughly 40V at 100A or 0.4 ohms and 4000 watts._
> 
> ...


 If you want to use an Igbt which I would use over a SCR you can get one in the same size package as the EV 100 that bolts in the same place as an EV 100. It is the EVT 100 and can also handle more current than the EV 100. Here is a link to the tech manual.http://www.fsip.biz/Documents/EVT100ZX%20TECH%20(2-2008).pdf. I highly recommend this unit due to the fact you can easily repair components on this panel compared to a mosfet based controller.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

ev1 dude said:


> If you want to use an Igbt which I would use over a SCR you can get one in the same size package as the EV 100 that bolts in the same place as an EV 100. It is the EVT 100 and can also handle more current than the EV 100.


I doubt the EV100 or the EVT100 will ever gain much popularity for automotive use because of the low voltage capability, although I plan on trying to use the EV100 that I have someday. I know the EVT transistor version was the replacement for the old noisy SCR panels, but the specs. don't back up your comment about them handling more current. Actually the SCR version has slightly higher peak current and voltage according to the manuals.


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## ev1 dude (Jan 5, 2015)

That manual on the EVT 100 that is on the FSIP site has not been updated to show all of the control cards that are currently in use with that base. There is a TV card out now that can handle 144 volts. Most of the time this card is mated with an EVT 1000 but if the panel has the right caps and diode packs it can be used on the EVT 100 as well. You can find the TV listed with the EVT 1000 manual. It was last updated in 2012 unlike the 2008 revised EVT 100 manual so don't rule out the evt 100 for use in a converted ev vehicle. The EVT 100 beats out the EV 100 in peak current due to the fact the IGBT on time capability is near 100 percent but the SCR control relies on a cycling of the #2 and #5 rectifier in order to turn off the #1 rectifier making the average peak motor current lower due to the fact it's peak current doesn't remain on for the same percentage of time.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Is there anyone that could summarize the key takeaways from this 200+ page thread? Thanks!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

here is what I've gleaned for my own purposes fwiw (brushed motor assumed):

4 sets of dual brushes (4 pole, lots of brush area for current)

series wound (thick field windings), more of a "constant" hp with lots of starting torque, not shunt.

wide diameter for torque, more diameter is better to a point, 7" to 13" diameter. 

3 bolt fields poles.

more commutator bars is better than less.

useable output shaft.

36-48v rated probably.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

dcb did a good summary

All I would add is expect from about 50Kg (9inch) to about 100Kg (11 inch)
Much smaller and its probably no good for a car
much bigger and its probably too big

And when you find one that looks possible post pictures on this thread for the real experts like major to comment on


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

That i one of the things Ive picked up on as an easy way to tell if its worth snagging or not - Diameter at 9 or 11" and between 100 &150 lbs or so! Thanks guys!


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Hello gentlemen,
Would using this type of motor be feasible for an electric car conversion? I am not sure if it is from a forklift, but it did come out of some type of an industrial machine.

http://www.baldor.com/api/images/208
https://www.baldorvip.com/Drawing/D.../G6207C.pdf&productNumber=CD2015R-BV&winding=


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matej said:


> Hello gentlemen,
> Would using this type of motor be feasible for an electric car conversion? I am not sure if it is from a forklift, but it did come out of some type of an industrial machine.
> 
> http://www.baldor.com/api/images/208
> https://www.baldorvip.com/Drawing/D.../G6207C.pdf&productNumber=CD2015R-BV&winding=


Hi Mate.

I don't see the physical specs, but I think that machine is large and heavy, likely too much so for a car conversion. It also has a high rated voltage and shunt winding making a suitable controller difficult if not impossible to find. I'd keep looking.

major


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Thank you for the reply, I will keep looking for something more suitable.


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## boarbuck (Feb 4, 2016)

New to this site hope I sent it right. I was considering buying a crown 4500# jack and charging system with bad batteries for 250$ is this a good idea? Figure i could part it out if all else fails. I don't know much about motors and assume each model would have different motor, but in general so would a typical motor from some thing like this power a small tracked vehicle for general speedy mobility or for a truck type with low speed torque? I figure a lawn mower rear end or plus tranny will work but idk. Or maybe a direct drive chain. Please elaborate. I know my kids go cart only has 7 pounds of tourqe and it rolls 30. Forward backward and volts and controller info would be grateful. Would like to have at least an hour of runtime. Thanks metal 
wood and limited capacity brain box.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boarbuck said:


> New to this site hope I sent it right. I was considering buying a crown 4500# jack and charging system with bad batteries for 250$ is this a good idea? Figure i could part it out if all else fails. I don't know much about motors and assume each model would have different motor, but in general so would a typical motor from some thing like this power a small tracked vehicle for general speedy mobility or for a truck type with low speed torque? I figure a lawn mower rear end or plus tranny will work but idk. Or maybe a direct drive chain. Please elaborate. I know my kids go cart only has 7 pounds of tourqe and it rolls 30. Forward backward and volts and controller info would be grateful. Would like to have at least an hour of runtime. Thanks metal
> wood and limited capacity brain box.


Doesn't sound like a bad deal. Scrap price on steel may fetch that much. Typically using 6.6 inch drive motors. Good for a hp or 2 continuous, 4 or 5 peak. More with higher voltage. Save the controller and charger. You mention some suitable applications.


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## boarbuck (Feb 4, 2016)

Yeah figure many useful timgs there to play with. I'm gonna head out and pick it up now along with a snowplow maybe I can put the snow plow on the track vehicle. I'll update info on engine and would love people to entertain my idea and help with this projext.
Metal, wood and limited capacity brain box.


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## boarbuck (Feb 4, 2016)

OK got this Forky home its got A Yale 45c type E motor tag on lift says 200 ah at 6 hour rate 4000# capacity.my question is will the electronics in this system and mechanical gearbox power a thousand pound track vehicle? Or build new transmission. I would like tourqe and speeds up to 10 15 mph.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Related to boarbuck's query, has anyone experimented with electric pallet jack motors in a car application?
They are usually only 24V, but I wondered if they could be worth salvaging for use in a dual-motor setup with advanced timing.
Though I am guessing the top speed would not be great. Or any speed, maybe. 




boarbuck said:


> New to this site hope I sent it right. I was considering buying a crown 4500# jack and charging system with bad batteries for 250$ is this a good idea?


Here is a good video for scrapping one of those jacks that I coincidentally just came across a few days ago when researching pallet jacks as well.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

boarbuck said:


> OK got this Forky home its got A Yale 45c type E motor tag on lift says 200 ah at 6 hour rate 4000# capacity.my question is will the electronics in this system and mechanical gearbox power a thousand pound track vehicle? Or build new transmission. I would like tourqe and speeds up to 10 15 mph.


Probably. As is, it pushes 6000# at 2-3 mph. Change the drive ratio and 1000# at 10-15 mph is in the cards.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matej said:


> Related to boarbuck's query, has anyone experimented with electric pallet jack motors in a car application?
> They are usually only 24V, but I wondered if they could be worth salvaging for use in a dual-motor setup with advanced timing.
> Though I am guessing the top speed would not be great. Or any speed, maybe.


I suggest you look for a larger motor, like from a counterbalance forklift. Look for at least a 7 inch diameter motor, 8 or 9 better.


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## boarbuck (Feb 4, 2016)

New thought. Zero turn mower drive axles maybe be easier on motor but they ain't cheap maybe to many jokers in this deck of cards? It works but batteries about shot.so amp hours give me longer run time and volts give me more power I think is their anyway to raise the amount of juice on this pallet jack speed contoler? Isee good results on various types of DC motor personal toys on YouTube and don't wanna just scrap it. Im gonna put the hydraulic system from it onto my utility vehicle to convert manual dump bed so Thiers a plus and trying to revive battery's but the bad ones will bring good money so almost in the positive. The forks can be repurposed as my track suspension and frame and the battery box covers as the belly pans to hold battery's. Sounds like a lot of work. Anybody wanna buy a pallet jack? needs batterys...


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## WebbRowan (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for these useful tips. It is definitely not easy converting a regular car into an electric one but it is not impossible either. With the right tools and materials, a more environmentally-friendly vehicle is on its way in no time.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

I haven't done that many miles - maybe about 1000 - but the Device is being stripped down for some improvements and a new (Volt) battery pack
While I was at it I took the motor out to have a good look,

Hitachi MT4100

The brushes are about 28mm long
There is visible rust on the springs but it seems to be on the surface 

What should I do?
Stick it back in and keep running it?
Take it to the motor shop for a checkup? (4 hours drive)


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

If it ain't broke...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Duncan said:


> What should I do?


I assume it wasn't a bright and shiny new motor when you stuck it in your device. So hard for me to tell what your 1000 miles of kind driving has done to it. But I don't see anything in dire need of messin' about. I'd run it.


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## diver653 (Sep 20, 2011)

If it ain't broke or frayed leave it be!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks guys - 
I am doing some car mods and the Volt battery but the motor will just go back in


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Would a motor exactly like this one be worth picking up?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2346377-Cla...547254?hash=item3d15ba78f6:g:Lp8AAOSwoudW-WWg

I have an opportunity to buy one locally for really cheap before it gets scrapped. It is approximately 11" and 36/48V.
At the moment I have no use for it, but if it is worth saving I would buy it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

How cheap?

I paid $100 for mine - which is about the scrap metal value 
I would have paid up to about $1000 
So if it was going cheap here I would grab it and hang on to it in case I wanted it later or somebody nearby needed it

Nearby because it will be over 100Kg


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Duncan said:


> How cheap?
> 
> I paid $100 for mine - which is about the scrap metal value


100$ as well, actually. Do you have the same motor?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

No - not exactly the same but an 11 inch DC forklift motor is a commodity item, there are going to be better and worse - but not by much!
It's mature technology


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Picked up the Clark/GE motor yesterday.

Which of these will be better suited for a performance application? ADC 9" or the 11" GE? Assuming I advance the brushes on the GE.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matej said:


> Which of these will be better suited for a performance application? ADC 9" or the 11" GE?


A lot depends on what you mean by performance. If it is mass critical you need the weights of each. Typically 11 inchers are heavier plus it appears it has iron end bells vs aluminum on the 9. The age and wear and tear need considering. Would need photos of guts of each to comment more. Brush and shunt size are critical for massive current drag launches. Fan size/design and ventilation important for long duration runs. 

Overall I give the GE the upper grade for quality design and construction. That can mean a lot, perhaps more than all the other stuff combined. But I wouldn't make that call without seeing more.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Thanks. Even with the motor being dirty, the build quality simply 'feels' better than the ADC. Instead of performance, I should have said fun. I am not trying to win any races, but I will be taking the car to some local drifting and possibly autocross events. Extra cooling will definitely be employed. And the bulk of my battery pack will be in the rear of the car, thus the heavier motor should at least even out the weight distribution a bit.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Unfortunately it turns out the shaft on the motor is of quite a unique dimension and spline count, and it has proven nearly impossible to find anything that would allow me to adapt a flywheel to it without spending unreasonable amounts of money.

My options are either to attempt to resell the motor, or adapt the flywheel to the other end, which uses a keyed shaft and even has a pulley on it.

Would the efficiency of the motor decrease greatly if it is used rotating in the opposite direction? I assume it would need better cooling, at least.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another option is to just use a taper lock coupler over the spline and treat it like a smooth shaft. Etischer did it on his build. Or turn the shaft down to a smooth profile and have a keyway cut into it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Matej

Look for a tractor sales place - you want the sort of place with lots of old tractor bits
Then take your motor down in the back of your car
Talk to the guy and he will have all sorts of splined bits that you will be able to take out to your car and see what fits


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Matej said:


> Unfortunately it turns out the shaft on the motor is of quite a unique dimension and spline count, and it has proven nearly impossible to find anything that would allow me to adapt a flywheel to it without spending unreasonable amounts of money.
> 
> My options are either to attempt to resell the motor, or adapt the flywheel to the other end, which uses a keyed shaft and even has a pulley on it.
> 
> Would the efficiency of the motor decrease greatly if it is used rotating in the opposite direction? I assume it would need better cooling, at least.


That motor is bidirectional so efficiency and cooling will be the same either direction. The problem with driving off the brake end is the shaft may be smaller and in turn weaker. I'm sure I've seen on here where others have done it with different motors though. I think it could work as a last resort if you don't plan on pushing it really hard. Do you know what the motor came off of? Could you possibly find the mating gear and use that to make a coupler?


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

It is a 1.282" (1-9/32") 15-spline shaft, which is an obsolete and extremely rare size. I already researched it quite thoroughly, including wasting hours browsing through various obscure forklift and tractor part databases.
The differential from the forklift was already scrapped when I picked up the motor. I found a seller on Ebay parting out the same model of forklift, and he wants 1200$ just for the differential gearset. 
Not to mention after he sent me pictures, it does not look like it would be useful for making an adapter anyway.

For now I am leaning toward just using the ADC motor. That way once I get a flywheel adapter, I will at least be able to reuse it on a Warp, ME, or HPEVS motor if I ever upgrade.

If anyone on here wants the GE motor for cheap, feel free to PM me.


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## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

I have access to a Clark Model ECL (OLD) forklift, still running. It used to have a 36V charger but that's stolen. ID plate is attached. I'd like to know if the traction/pump motors are a good fit for running a 5-speed Kia Rio as a conversion. I know it doesn't have an electronic controller, I'd be buying or building that.

Finding info on this seems to be tough, I'm guessing it's a 60s and there aren't much in the way of electronic records of the specs. Perhaps some old lift guru knows the particulars?

Edit: this is the closest match I can find regarding the model: http://service.clarkmhc.com/spec_sh...tric Carloader/XP Electric Carloader 1958.pdf


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## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

Picked up the forklift, I think it's a mid 50's Clark Big Red. Traction and pump motors are attached. Any thought on the motors, the forklift works fine right now, I might just be better off cleaning it up and selling it?

Can't seem to attach pics now, so here's a link to the motor plates:

http://imgur.com/a/mU40I


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi ikidd

If you are thinking about breaking your forklift there are a lot of bits worth hanging onto or selling

Selling
Battery - even if naff
Forks and mast - the farmers here put the assembly on the back of their tractors - very handy
Scrap metal - a LOT of high grade scrap in a fork lift

Keep
Cables, connectors, contactors, switches, throttle, motors....


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## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

Duncan said:


> Hi ikidd
> 
> If you are thinking about breaking your forklift there are a lot of bits worth hanging onto or selling
> 
> ...



Any ideas on the motors I linked there? The traction motor seems huge, and other than the obvious RPM and current rating, is any of that info on the tags useful? I don't see model numbers or such unless I can look up something by the serial numbers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ikidd said:


> Any ideas on the motors I linked there? The traction motor seems huge, and other than the obvious RPM and current rating, is any of that info on the tags useful? I don't see model numbers or such unless I can look up something by the serial numbers.


Linky no worky. Model numbers typically don't mean much around here. Sometimes nameplate data from the motor itself is useful. Pictures with a scale and perhaps weights are very helpful. Typically the pump motors, while they can be of correct power, are not, or difficult, usable due to output shaft configuration. Traction, or drive motors are a better bet.

major


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## ikidd (Jan 19, 2015)

major said:


> Linky no worky. Model numbers typically don't mean much around here. Sometimes nameplate data from the motor itself is useful. Pictures with a scale and perhaps weights are very helpful. Typically the pump motors, while they can be of correct power, are not, or difficult, usable due to output shaft configuration. Traction, or drive motors are a better bet.
> 
> major


I changed the settings on that Imgur album to allow access, apparently I had it set to Secret.

I've been resizing and changing formats to BMP and GIF on my pics, they will not upload other than that first one I managed to get to load. I've got them down to 75Kb and 320x240 and it still won't accept them, not sure what the issue is there.

Here's the pics on my Dropbox, In case the Imgur link is bad, or someone can tell me why I can't upload. Maybe my account is restricted due to the low number of posts or something.

Traction:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7gtd6rrqupbwe8/ClarkTractionMotor.jpg?dl=0

Pump:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jooeq3w0d53rqxl/2016-05-29%2013.05.10.jpg?dl=0


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## tenthousandclowns (Jun 21, 2012)

I haven't read through this thread yet but I will..

I just tested a 36-year-old electravan motor and it was kind of noisy. A 20hp G.E. series motor. It has been sitting for two years in Florida, the previous owner says it ran before that.. There is some rust on the car but the motor doesn't seem too bad. No sparks or vibration, nothing got hot during a short 12v test (1 minute or so) But it is much noisier than the same motor in my other van. Only 6000 kilometers on this motor, so pretty unused.

https://youtu.be/a_87_MdE5Jk

Tested at 12v.

They charged me $1100 to get the motor in my other van rebuilt, so I am going to try to work on this one myself.


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

All that most motors need is a good clean, new bearings and the commutator cleaned up. Obviously, you would check the brushes too. 

Not much involved in rebuilding motors really. Make sure you mark the case and anything else you take apart, so it goes back together the same way. I used to use a center punch and put 2 or 3 "pips" in the end casings and corresponding "pips" in the case.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

just fyi, running it vertical changes the bearing dynamics a bit, might try laying it on its side and see how it sounds.

but new bearings are usually cheap insurance.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It also can be dangerous to run a motor that is not solidly fastened to a bench or similar support, especially when "cold starting" by applying power with a switch rather than the ramp-up and ramp-down of a controller. This is especially so if there is a problem in the motor that could cause the armature to lock up suddenly, as it could with debris, loose commutator section, or a badly worn bearing that could seize. There is a lot of rotational inertia that can cause the motor to get loose and roll around the shop, like a 100 pound "top".


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Another opportunity to purchase a motor.
It is from a Crown forklift, approximately 11.5" in diameter.
Here are some pictures I found online. Is it worth getting for 250$?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Looks like a very good motor for the money. You'll need to adapt to the shaft spline. And the photo of the armature looks new. I can't see the condition of the brush gear and commutator that's actually inside it.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Good to know, thanks. That is not the actual motor, just pictures of the same model I found online. I will go look at it in person.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

The seller just sent me a few pictures. It looks as if the gear could be taken advantage of for adapting a flywheel.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Exactly the same motor I found for my Smart 7 years ago. Good find Matej.
This motor can probably output over 150 hp peak with proper battery and 220-250 lbs-ft of torque at 1000 A.
Mine was destroyed by overspeed. Full battery voltage to motor terminal in neutral (Soliton 1 fault).

Here is how I connect it to a VW transmission. In my case it was like that because place was limited.


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## ChesterGT (Jul 28, 2016)

These motors you guys are finding are huge. I put in forklift motor in eBay and am only findIng little 20" long X 10" wide motors. My power goal is 30kw burst 10-15kw continues.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

ChesterGT said:


> These motors you guys are finding are huge. I put in forklift motor in eBay and am only findIng little 20" long X 10" wide motors. My power goal is 30kw burst 10-15kw continues.



20" long X 10" wide - sounds about right for your requirements - what is the problem?


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## ChesterGT (Jul 28, 2016)

That seems so small haha. Im a new to the EV motors. If that sounds like the right size then I know what I'm getting. Thanks


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## sammyleal (Aug 1, 2016)

I found this on ebay. 

Is this good for a small conversion (op speed 35 mph)? 

Can it handle 48v? Thank you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ADVANCED-MO...DC-MOTOR-GENIE-56282-AU2500-NEW-/221989503138


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

sammyleal said:


> I found this on ebay.
> 
> Is this good for a small conversion (op speed 35 mph)?
> 
> ...


Hi sammy,

Nice looking motor. It appears to be a SepEx. If you know what that means and are ok with it, come back and we'll talk more. If not, better stick with series motors. 

Welcome aboard,

major


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## ChesterGT (Jul 28, 2016)

$700 sounds like a lot for such a little motor


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## sammyleal (Aug 1, 2016)

Hi Major! Thank you for replying.

I already have this motor and a Curtis 500A controller. I'm studyng about different kinds of motors, but I'd like to know if you guys can tell some expectations about this system.

I'm from Brazil and it's very expensive to get an foreign motor because of the taxes.

Thank you very much =)


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## sammyleal (Aug 1, 2016)

I paid almost 2000 dollars with the controller, because of the taxes =(


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Couldn't find any specs. If the field and armature are rated the same current, it will work as a reversible series motor. Here is a project someone did 8 years ago, where he paid only $103 for it including shipping:

http://www.appropedia.org/User:Jthiller/Electric_Car


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## sammyleal (Aug 1, 2016)

According to the controller manual, current on the field is rated 50 A (2minutes) and current on the armature is rated 500A (2minutes).


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

sammyleal said:


> According to the controller manual, current on the field is rated 50 A (2minutes) and current on the armature is rated 500A (2minutes).


Yes, 50A max field and 500A max for armature sounds like a SepEx Curtis. Since you say you already have the motor and controller, we can work with it. I recommend you start with it the bench, get it running at 24V then attempt 48V. Do you have the Curtis programmer?

major


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## sammyleal (Aug 1, 2016)

No... I thought I could find the PC version to plug to the controller, but I can't find it.

Sorry, I'm just dumb. I think I just could plug it to the controller and make it work, using the factory settings. 

Since nobody here in my region even heard about EV conversions, I'm just studying and trying to figure it out by myself.

I just made a 12V bench test without the controller. Some guys said the motor could fly or turn abruptaly, but it just moved quietly. I counted around 500 RPM.

Thank you.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I tried looking for more specs online but couldn't find much. It *appears* as if it may be okay for lighter use. If it weighs 100# or more I would think Yes. I would ask the seller for length, weight and also shaft size (and a picture of the shaft). Perhaps also: a picture with the brush cover removed i.e. is it a 4-brush motor or 8-brush?


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## dramborleg (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm thinking of using this motor for a VW Golf project. (80Km/h with 30Km radius)

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0nJtdOXmNA58Kz

It's the drive motor of a 20 year old OM/FIAT EU25 forklift. The motor has no specification plate, but the battery system is rated at 72V nominal (36*2V). The motor is barely lift able by one person so i recon it weights at least 40Kg.

The drive axle is toothed, but the commutator looks a bit rough to me. 

Any ideas about rough Amp rating? Or max Voltage rating (with or without brush advancing)? Any other thoughts I've missed?

80Km/h = 50 mph
30Km = 18.5 miles
40Kg = 88 Lbs
P.S. It's my first post here, so Hello all


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dramborleg said:


> I'm thinking of using this motor for a VW Golf project. (80Km/h with 30Km radius)
> 
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0nJtdOXmNA58Kz
> 
> ...


Nice looking motor. Comm and brushes look fine. That dark film or patina is needed. Do not disturbe it unless signs of burning, pitting, or grooving. Hopefully it is series wound field; probably is. Guess is maybe 150-200 Amp one hour rated. Going much above 100 Volts may require brush advance. Welcome aboard. major


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## getinhot (Sep 7, 2016)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey Coley
> 
> feel free to send pics anytime and I'll put an eyeball on them. If there is a cover band (and you want to remove it) it'll help me to see the comm and brush leads and such for a better idea as to it's over all health. FWIW, it's hard to say if that's a 1 hour duty cycle or a cont duty cycle on the data tag.
> Cya
> ...


Hi Jim and everybody,
I need any info on a Yale 95B if you can. I got lucky, my 83 year old friend decided he had too much stuff and gave me his home-made E/V truck. Problem is now, he doesn't remember why he disassembled it. The accelerator pot is in place and I found a GE EV-100 controller. I have ridden in it before. It topped out about 40MPH. I've read the threads on advancing the motor 10 degrees. I sure would like to get it up to 55. The town square is a mile away. My brother's house is 8 miles one way. If I can get it to make those trips, I may even give away a car. I'm attaching some pictures you usually ask for. I much appreciate your help. Thanks, Harry.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

getinhot said:


> Hi Jim and everybody,
> I need any info on a Yale 95B if you can. I got lucky, my 83 year old friend decided he had too much stuff and gave me his home-made E/V truck. Problem is now, he doesn't remember why he disassembled it. The accelerator pot is in place and I found a GE EV-100 controller. I have ridden in it before. It topped out about 40MPH. I've read the threads on advancing the motor 10 degrees. I sure would like to get it up to 55. The town square is a mile away. My brother's house is 8 miles one way. If I can get it to make those trips, I may even give away a car. I'm attaching some pictures you usually ask for. I much appreciate your help. Thanks, Harry.


Hi getin,

My friend Jim has stepped out of this forum for a while. Love to see him chime in; but seems unlikely. Yale motors are good ones and even though kinda old and rusty outside, it probably is still capable and ready to work. On a GE controller I imagine you're limited on voltage where you'd not need advance. Advance is for commutation purpose and won't do much if anything to increase speed. To increase motor RPM increase voltage. That may require a different controller. 

Good luck,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Advance is for commutation purpose and won't do much if anything to increase speed. To increase motor RPM increase voltage. That may require a different controller.


And advancing the motor


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## mechano (Jun 1, 2015)

Hello I have the very same motor, it is not a series wound it is a separately- exited motor. Mine also doesn't have any plates on it.
It is nice to know that it comes out of a Eu25 forklift an it is 72V.
I am also trying to find out what power can I expect from it.

I found this motor catalog you can see the blue motors at third page 
http://www.lehner-industriemaschinen.ch/html/pdf\fiat-om-pimespo-motor-trazione.pdf


Eren B.




dramborleg said:


> I'm thinking of using this motor for a VW Golf project. (80Km/h with 30Km radius)
> 
> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0nJtdOXmNA58Kz
> 
> ...


----------



## MrPiskenator (Nov 18, 2016)

I might be able to get a used yellow sit down Hyster forklift for the parts to help with a possible EVconversion to my small 5 speed 4wd pickup. I would like to keep the clutch functional and have the ability to shift the current trans, if it matters. I have nameplate info on the 2 motors visible below the floor area if anyone has opinions, info, or knows where I can find out more about the parts that may be usable from this forklift? The smaller of the 2 motors on the left side, maybe the hydraulic pump, says "GE Motors, Part No 361958, WDG Series, Voltage 36/48, AU 1840, Made in USA". The larger motor, looks like for the drive, says "GE Motors, Part No 325744, WDG Series, Voltage 36/48, AU 1840, Made in USA." They both also have serial numbers if it's important. I think the lift capacity on the mast said 4000 lbs, if that helps. I just signed up here today, so thank you for any help.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MrPiskenator said:


> I might be able to get a used yellow sit down Hyster forklift for the parts to help with a possible EVconversion to my small 5 speed 4wd pickup. I would like to keep the clutch functional and have the ability to shift the current trans, if it matters. I have nameplate info on the 2 motors visible below the floor area if anyone has opinions, info, or knows where I can find out more about the parts that may be usable from this forklift? The smaller of the 2 motors on the left side, maybe the hydraulic pump, says "GE Motors, Part No 361958, WDG Series, Voltage 36/48, AU 1840, Made in USA". The larger motor, looks like for the drive, says "GE Motors, Part No 325744, WDG Series, Voltage 36/48, AU 1840, Made in USA." They both also have serial numbers if it's important. I think the lift capacity on the mast said 4000 lbs, if that helps. I just signed up here today, so thank you for any help.


Sorry MrPi, been preoccupied and several reply attempts failed to launch. Part numbers don't mean much to us, in most cases. Photos and nameplate ratings are much better. 

Hyster used some nice motors. The counterbalance 4wheelers often had the GE 11" drive motor which is similar to the Netgain WarP11, likey a good one for your truck.

Regards, 

major


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## MrPiskenator (Nov 18, 2016)

Ok. I understand. Just wondering what pics or would more info off the lift nameplate would help? Overall view of the lift, or a pic of the motors through the access hole in floor? Looks to have a large mechanical brake on the rear of the larger drive motor. The whole lift is still complete. It still all functioned, except the battery quit and has since been removed. What would you say for value if I were able to buy the whole lift, compared to them scrapping it? I could likely use at least one of the motors for traction for myself, maybe the controller, throttle box, some wiring, and sell other pieces to others who have similar projects before scrapping the chassis myself?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
If you buy the whole thing you will have
Wiring/connectors
Forwards/reverse contactor thing
Two decent contactors
Throttle
There is a few hundred dollars there

To sell
The forks and mast - farmers here put them on the back of their tractors to make a cheap forklift - very handy
Lots of good steel - scrappers

The brake on the drive motor - keep that there will be a spline drive part in there - I used mine to turn into a drive adapter 

The flip side is that it will be incredibly heavy! - you may have difficulty safely taking it apart because of that


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## MrPiskenator (Nov 18, 2016)

Good ideas, thank you. I got some estimates of around $100 or so (if it doesn't put up a fight loading) to haul it to my house, about 9 miles away. Does that sound about right? That would mean I would have around $200 in hauling it both ways if I scrap it later, so I'm trying to decide if it's worth the money and effort, or if I should just be buying the parts I need when I need them? I guess it depends on the scrap metal price also. Anyone had good or bad experience taking a Hyster 4000 lb capacity sit down lift apart for the parts? Would I need to remove anything from the bottom, or can I use a chain fall hoist from the overhead frame to pull the motors through the floor area? How about a way to look up the lift model numbers from a dealers service manual to know what parts are in that particular model to see if it's worth it? Sorry for all the questions, just a lot of new thoughts all at one time.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

If it's in good operating condition except for the batteries, it might be worthwhile to see what used forklifts are fetching, and do a nice cleanup and perhaps conversion to lithium batteries. Of course, the weight of lead might be an asset for a forklift, so maybe look for good deals on batteries. You might get deep cycle batteries for less than $100/kW-h. 

It looks like electric forklifts with working batteries and chargers are going for about $2000-$6000 on eBay. Motors are about $300-$900. Forklift batteries seem to be $2000-$5000 or so, for about 36V 600A-h (21 kW-h).


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## MrPiskenator (Nov 18, 2016)

I appreciate all of your help and good ideas regarding this lift, but when I came to check on it this morning, it was gone. Someone had gotten to it before I could. So I guess I will just have to keep my eyes open in case I see another one before it's actually time to decide to buy a motor by itself. Thanks again, I will keep reading along and learning as I go.


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## norlesh (Jan 5, 2017)

Hey all, hoping to get a quick bit of advice on if a 7.5 kW 43V dc motor (manufactured by Hitachi I believe from what I can make out in the photo I received of the motors plate) out of an old Datsun sit down forklift (lifting capacity 2000kg) is likely to push my project anywhere? The intended recipient is an old Nissan Urvan minibus which is/was powered by a four cylinder SD23 diesel engine: rated 54kW @4300 rpm this apparently back in the day was enough to carry itself, the driver, plus 14 passengers - however currently with only three out of those four cylinders functioning ill be lucky to get it to the workshop where I plan to do the transplant without a tow truck.

The motor in question is waiting for me to pick it up tomorrow a six hour drive away and is going to cost me $300 AUD (plus my drive time and fuel - fork motors seem few and far between here in Australia) so would like to know if its going to at least be something that will be able to move the van at a moderate pace? (here in Australia around urban areas the speed limit is between 40 and 60 km/h and while I don't expect to be able to maintain the van at the normal 100 to 110 km/h I think the police start writing tickets if you go below 80km/h on the freeway) before I commit.


FYI a bit about my project (the solar camper): Twelve of the former fifteen seats from the minibus have been removed and replaced with a bed/sofa (A yet to be determined number of AGM lead acid batteries will live below that distributed the length of the floor), the DC fork motor is a stop gap to get the project mobile while I hunt around for a suitable AC motor to provide regen to extend its range, on top of the roof I have stacked 12x175W solar panels (2kW) that will be mounted so they can be folded out once parked to provide 15 square meters of shade and recharging capabilities while camping.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

AFAIK, a 7.5 kW motor at best might be pushed to 15 kW (20 HP). Your bus will likely weigh as much as 2000 kg (4400 lb). Using my EV calculator I found that, on a 2% slope at 80 km/h (50 MPH), it will require about 20 kW (26 HP), and will consume about 400 W-h/mile. Lead batteries are about 60 lb/kW-h, and for a 30 mile range you will need 12 kW-h, and because of Peukert and to avoid deep discharge you would need about 25 kW-h of lead which would be about 1500 lb. Also, the best price I have found for FLA batteries is about $80 per kW-h, so you are looking at at least $2000 and you might get 3-5 years out of them.

So, unless you are satisfied with a vehicle that can barely keep up to minimum speed, and can only go within a 15 mile radius, you are pretty much out of the game. And you definitely need a motor that can provide continuous power of at least 25 HP. Your 2 kW of solar panels ideally might recharge a 25 kW pack in 12-15 hours. 

I would suggest getting a 25-40 HP 3 phase industrial motor, 4 pole, which can often be found for about the same price as your $300 forklift motor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldor-EM25...60V-40G048W943-1770-RPM-WE-SHIP-/322267055781

And a VFD of similar size for about $1000 (your DC controller will probably be of similar cost)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-HP-Yaskawa-E7-CIMR-E7U4030-67-2-AMP-380-480VAC-AC-Drive-VFD/142137577539

And then you will need a battery pack, which you might be able to scrounge from a wrecked hybrid or EV for about $2000. You can probably get by with 15-20 kW-h and add cells to increase range. The problem with a 25-40 HP industrial VFD is that most are 400+ VAC and need a battery pack of at least 500 volts.

Don't expect a lot of benefit from regeneration. I think most people report 10-20% at best.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi norlesh,

the fork lift motor will allow you to move the truck around but as Paul pointed out won't be a feasible drive motor. But thats not your intention anyway. I also second Paul on the battery topic.

Just wanted to point out that I'm using a 66kg industrial motor which would be rated 7.5kW as a standard 50Hz motor. It is rated for inverter use and higher speed (120Hz), so 18.5kW. I drive it at 40kW passively cooled and never experienced overheating issues.

I'm just saying that because a 40hp continuous motor will be around 150kg if I remember right. The continuous rating of industrial motors is extremely conservative and thus not very relevant for car use.

If I remember correctly Australia is not exactly a regen country  But regen comes with no additional cost for AC motors so why not have it.


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## norlesh (Jan 5, 2017)

Well thanks guys, darn - looks like I'm still shopping for a motor. Will turn my eye to 3 phase inductions... Battery situation is sounding a lot more bleak - has anyone on the forum had much success with hybrid setups? I spotted a source for Li-poly packs on eBay last night that works out to around $500 per kWh (14.8 x 4000mAh packs Floureon brand used in high power remote control vehicles) - if I swapped in a replacement ICE and while I was at it somehow squeezed a 10hp electric into the drive train to either provide the full torque or supplement the ICE while spinning up to optimal RPM (everything I have been reading says this is where the ICE's suck the most) - could do with only a few kWh in this scenario.


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## norlesh (Jan 5, 2017)

Hey jhuebner, any thoughts on this eBay motor?

415V 7.5kW 10HP 2800rpm 2 Pole with an Alloy case weighing in at 55kg


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

norlesh said:


> Hey jhuebner, any thoughts on this eBay motor?
> 
> 415V 7.5kW 10HP 2800rpm 2 Pole with an Alloy case weighing in at 55kg


Hi norl,

I know Paul and j mean well, but for a first timer, I recommend that you go the DC motor route unless you purchase a turn-key AC motor controller package which includes technical assistance from the dealer. Just my $0.02 worth.

Regards,

major


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## norlesh (Jan 5, 2017)

Thanks Major, I understand where your coming from BUT , as it turns out I just got off the phone with someone and am picking up two scrappy looking but working 10HP inductions for $40 tomorrow... really makes AC enticing at the moment! hec if AC does turn out to difficult at least i'll be able to make a profit on them if I turn back towards DC  .


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think Major is right. The fact that you chose a 2 pole 415V 10 HP motor shows that you don't understand enough about 3 phase motors and controllers to do a conversion without expert assistance. You should get a 240/480 volt motor with at least 4 poles so it can be overclocked to 4000 RPM and twice its rated 50/60 Hz power.

There are some DC forklift motors on eBay for $300-$1000 that might do the job for you. Most of them don't have kW or HP ratings, but I think you will need at least 15 HP nominal for your bus. You will probably be looking at perhaps 72-100 volts of batteries and 200-300 amps.

[edit] If you can get the motors for cheap, go for it. You might be able to get a cheap VFD and spin them on the vehicle using AC and an extension cord. At least you'll get some experience. Be careful, and have fun.


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## Isaak (Nov 24, 2016)

Hey there!

I just stumbbled upon a motor that doesn't have much specifications online


Its a Ho-MRO motor rated @ 6.6kw -48vdcfrom meidensha. 
I have seen a few threads in this forum but they don't clear my doubts completely.

What I have found out till now is that MRO from meidensha stands for Series motor but, I can't find how much power it would output @ 36v nor if I could run it @ higher voltages.

My aim is to set up a electric conversion of a sailboat and have been searching for motors for ages and actually was looking for a brushed PM motor but it seems like this free motor came across at just the right time?

What my questions are, 

First, could I be able to regen with this motor?
Second, I have read from a PDF of meidensha that this motor has only 1300rpm, isn't that little?

And also, how would the wiring be? Doi need a contactor for reversing, etc or is it enough with the controller?

Have fun building stuff & hear from you soon!

Isaak


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Isaak,

No, series wound DC motors can not (practically) regenerate.

1300RPM seems a bit low even for a lift truck. You could run faster with higher voltage.

Manuals for motor controllers will give you wiring diagrams and info on reversing contactors. Also check our wiki.

Regards,

major


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm planning on using this sepex motor from a big forklift in a small boat, on about 48 volts (2s2p tesla modules), I plan to maximise output at 150 Amps, 100A normal cruising.

Does anyone have an idea what rpm would be 'normal' for this motor at ~45 volts?


















Nice axle, didn't pull the gear yet, I expect it to be a tapered axle.









A seal to stop oil from the gearbox to enter the motor, so I assume it has sealed bearings.


















I'd say it's 9 inch...









about 13 inch long.


















Production date? and a temp sensor with wires broken in transport.









Nice big brushes


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Brake assembly will be removed.


















Encoder?

I'm planning to use either a Kelly controller (good experience with series controllers)
http://kellycontroller.com/kdz48403gdz24v-48v400aseparately-excited-with-regen-p-978.html
or
http://kellycontroller.com/kdz48553gdv24v-48v550aseparately-excited-with-regen-p-1366.html

Does anyone know the difference between the KDZ-GDZ and the KDZ-GDV controllers?

Other option is Alltrax:
http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_DCX.html

http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_XCT.html

Does anyone spot errors in my plans, please speak up now, or...I'll buy the wrong parts...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The larger of the two can handle higher overall current and higher continuous current. Get the larger of the two. KDZ-GDZ

That way if you don't use it all it will run cooler and be easier on the motor and controller. But if you need or want an increase you have the ability to do so. Your motor can handle what that controller can dish out. Nice looking motor. Looks to be in good condition. Limit your motor rpm to 5000 rpm or less.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> The larger of the two can handle higher overall current and higher continuous current. Get the larger of the two. KDZ-GDZ
> 
> That way if you don't use it all it will run cooler and be easier on the motor and controller. But if you need or want an increase you have the ability to do so. Your motor can handle what that controller can dish out. Nice looking motor. Looks to be in good condition. Limit your motor rpm to 5000 rpm or less.


thanks.

The motor should not make more then 1500 rpm in this application, preferably less.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi boekel

That motor should not self destruct until about 5000 rpm - but it will take a lot more than 48v to enable you to pull decent power from it at those revs!
A similar motor limited me to about 3500rpm and 200 amps at 130v

1500 rpm will probably - almost certainly be fine at 48v


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

hi

sorry to join up and then go a bit off topic.. but this looks like the best place for this and this looks like the best thread too

I need a new controller for my forklift, forklift company want crazy money, it's a 1988 forklift, I bet a modern controller could run it easy peasy

I'm stuck because I've never seen a DC motor with 4 wires before... can anyone shove me in the right direction ?

motor 4 wires
1) controller connection2 and reversing contactor
2) controller connection5
3) reversing contactor
4) reversing contactor

controller has 5 connections
1) battery negative
2) reversing contactor and motor 1st wire
3) reversing contactor
4) battery positive
5) motor second wire



if it had 2 wires going to the motor and 2 to the reversing contactor I'd understand that... but this has me lost :-s

I quite like kelly controllers, used them for ebike builds in the past and they were pretty awesome compared to other ebike controllers... tho I read on here you guys don't rate them so highly?

it's 24v and and I don't know how many amps... but the fuse for it is 250amp

I'm happy to be a little bit down on power


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

knighty said:


> hi
> 
> sorry to join up and then go a bit off topic.. but this looks like the best place for this and this looks like the best thread too
> 
> ...


Yep, going a bit wide wrt topic. First off look up series wound reversible DC motor. 4 motor terminals are required because you must reverse the field relative to the armature. Typically the field terminals are S1 & S2 and armature are A1 & A2. Simply reversing + & - to the series motor will not reverse rotation. Both the field and armature carry full motor current, hence the HD reversing contactor set.

Do not use Kelly. You'll be sorry.

I'd suggest Curtis. For a reversing forklift you need a controller with a "plugging" diode ( as well as the always needed freewheeling diode, FWD). Curtis makes such a controller, like model 1205. Make sure it has 4 large power terminals to get the plugging diode. Some models only have 3 omitting the plugging for certain applications. Look up the manual on line and it will explain. You can likely find reconditioned or used ones.

Often times the "controller" on the fork truck will include other functions than just traction speed and direction control, like pump motor(s) starting, safety interlocks, etc. Repairing with non-OEM parts may be more trouble than it appears.

Regards,

major


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

hi Major, thanks for the reply

so the armature is always powered the same way, and you reverse the field coils to reverse the motor ?

I think what has me lost is the forklift controller has 5 contacts, but I can;t see another controller with 5 ?

from googling, I think this is because the current(or voltage?) in the field windings needs to change to adjust the motor speed ?
(going by this image)

is that right ?

do the modern controllers just work in a better way and so don't need so many contacts ?

had a call back from the forklift company, £8600 for a controller ! (10,600usd)

old forklift, so controller only controls motor speed, hydraulics etc. are separate

thanks 

Alan


EDIT: here http://www.4qd.co.uk/docs/motor-types-detail/

I found this


> In the shunt wound motor, the battery voltage is connected across the field winding. A steady current (equal to the battery voltage divided by the resistance of the field winding) flows in the field winding, causing it to become an electromagnet. These motors behave exactly like a PM motor, but with the permanent magnet replaced by an electromagnet. Usually the field winding is brought out separately from the armature, so the motor has four wires. With an ohm meter you can check that there are in fact two windings, a high resistance one (the field) and a low resistance one (the armature). *To control the speed, connect the field winding directly across the battery and drive the armature from a controller as if you are using a PM motor.*


so... I can run it with a 2 wire controller... yeah ?
(just checking before I buy anything)

still a little confused as to why the old controller had 3 motor connections...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

knighty said:


> hi Major, thanks for the reply
> 
> so the armature is always powered the same way, and you reverse the field coils to reverse the motor ?
> 
> ...


No, you can't use your series wound motor as a shunt motor. The field coils are physically wound differently. Low resistance of series field essentially shorts out battery.

In that diagram the armature is reversed. Notice I said field reversed "relative" to armature. It also shows field weakening, which your old control may or may not have.

4 vs 5 connections. Find the Curtis 1205 wiring diagram using reversing contactors. Note controller connects one terminal to battery positive and to motor. Your old controller might use 2 terminals instead of doubling up on that single. Reason would just be a guess.

major


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## DeProphet (Apr 2, 2017)

Hello 
I've found this motor online, Its been pulled out of MCF ( Mitsubishi Caterpillar Forklift)
It's rated 12,4 KW 
1290 R.P.M 
I'm wondering if that would fit VW Bug EV conversion 144v 1000A controller 
Thanks in advance


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DeProphet said:


> Hello
> I've found this motor online, Its been pulled out of MCF ( Mitsubishi Caterpillar Forklift)
> It's rated 12,4 KW
> 1290 R.P.M
> ...


Hi De,

Looks a lot like a GE 9" dia. motor which would likely push a bug pretty well. But it is the hydraulic pump motor. You can see the close coupled pump still attached to the drive end of the motor. Almost certainly has an internal splined shaft which would make it very difficult to design and fabricate an adaptor to mate to the car's tranny or drivetrain.

Regards,

major


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

You could convert the car's drive line to hydraulic too. It would be an interesting and unique project. But the outcome would be uncertain.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

galderdi said:


> But the outcome would be uncertain.


Pretty certain, it will move out like a piece of mining equipment, 12.4kw at 3mph.


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## DC DYNOMITE (Nov 23, 2009)

This is going in the shifter kart !


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

major said:


> Yep, going a bit wide wrt topic. First off look up series wound reversible DC motor. 4 motor terminals are required because you must reverse the field relative to the armature. Typically the field terminals are S1 & S2 and armature are A1 & A2. Simply reversing + & - to the series motor will not reverse rotation. Both the field and armature carry full motor current, hence the HD reversing contactor set.
> 
> Do not use Kelly. You'll be sorry.
> 
> ...


hi

thanks for all the help

I bought a Curtis 1207, and wired the forklift up with a new reversing contactor too

it works... but there's hardly any power ? forklift moved on the flat, but a slight ramp and it stopped

if I lift the drive wheel up in the air, so there's no load, it doesn't spin that fast... (I was careful not to overspeed it, but it didn't get fast enough to overspeed)

I can't tell how many amps it's pulling... but at full power it's dropping the 24v battery pack less than 2v (if I use the much smaller hydraulic motor it drops 4v)

poking around with a meter, there's only 8v across the brushes and windings (in series)

I jumped over the controller, so battery was connected directly to the motor and there was a lot more power - I only tested for a split second because I was worried about overspeed - motor picked up speed fast (unloaded)

and the heat sink I have the 1207 mounted on is getting pretty warm....


I tried reversing the connection to the brushes, thinking I might have them backwards - it made no difference (other than reversing motor)... does ti make any difference which is +ve and which is -ve ?

I took the vent cover off the motor and checked, I deffo. have the brush and windings wires the right


any ideas ?

I'm guessing I'm going to have to buy a programing lead to see what's going on with the controller... but it's 2 weeks postage (from ebay) and I'd really like to try and get it going before then :-o

thanks again, and sorry for so many questions

Alan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Sounds like a flat battery. Did you charge it? Is it an actual "forklift" battery- the steel cased type that weigh 1500-2000 #?

Edit: Did you mean the battery was dropping 2V as in 24-2 = 22 volts? 

Off hand I'd say the 1207 is on the small side for a forklift. But I have no idea of the truck size. A 400 or better yet 500 Amp controller maybe. Did you buy controller new or used? Can you get help from the dealer who sold it to you, or from Curtis?


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

battery is fully charged, proper forklift battery on a proper forklift

could you recommend a larger controller ?

I made a bit of a mistake, I thought the original controller had a 250amp fuse, so assumed a 1207 would be ok.... but then when I removed the fuse it had 350amps stamped on the other side!

bought the controller used, I've ordered a programing wire for it but don't have a lot of hope changing settings will make any difference, the heat sink was getting pretty warm (bit more than warm, but not really hot)

being 24v is a bit of a limiting factor I think, can't find many high amp controllers for series motors at 24v :-(



EDIT:

if the motor only has 8v across it, and the controller is getting hot running that low power... then there must be something wrong ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Alltrax has 24V 400 amp series controllers 
http://www.evdrives.com/category_s/1889.htm

Actually their newer series goes up to 600 amps
http://www.evdrives.com/category_s/4044.htm


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Alltrax 4865. 24-48V, 650A. Call dealer.http://www.alltraxinc.com/Dealer_Locator.html. Ask about 4 terminal for plugging. See if they offer customer support.


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

I know it's off topic but I figgure I should keep updates here

I've ordered a new clamp meter, mine only does AC

the forwards/reverse contractor for the field windings was getting hot... makes me wonder if I'm pulling a lot more amps than I thought, I'll wait for that to arrive and have a poke around before I order another controller


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

knighty said:


> I know it's off topic but I figgure I should keep updates here
> 
> I've ordered a new clamp meter, mine only does AC
> 
> the forwards/reverse contractor for the field windings was getting hot... makes me wonder if I'm pulling a lot more amps than I thought, I'll wait for that to arrive and have a poke around before I order another controller


That clamp meter wont help you. I bought a clamp meter off ebay that does both AC/DC Mastertech MS2108A

It does up to 400amp.

It may be that your cables are too thin or the connector at the end are not tight enough and the heat is travelling. Just a thought.

How are you reading current normally, have you got a panel meter with a couple of hundred amps shunt in series..?
JS


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

according to the meter is does DC amps 40 to 400 ?

if that doesn't work I have a spare shunt and meter I could fit, bought it for my electric bike but then fitted a different one

I fitted the contactor which came with the new controller as it's a much more modern/compact one, the old one was made in 1988, huge old thing... going with the smaller one meand I could fit the battery charger inside the compartment where the old controller/contactor was

ordered a new 600 amp contactor too, might not need it, but I'd like this fixed quick and don;t want to wait for delivery times if I need one later on


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

There is no reason a good clamp style DC ammeter will not provide fairly accurate measurements when properly used. I have several (different sizes, 40 - 1000A) and use them often. Much more convenient than installing a shunt for occasional readings and chasing problems.


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## johnsiddle (Jun 22, 2011)

knighty said:


> according to the meter is does DC amps 40 to 400 ?
> 
> if that doesn't work I have a spare shunt and meter I could fit, bought it for my electric bike but then fitted a different one
> 
> ...


Sorry I thought the new one you were buying only did AC..
My mistake.


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

clamp meter turned up yesterday but I was out all day, checked today and pulling away from a stop with your foot on the floor there's only 40amps pulled from the batteries.... as you pick up a bit of speed that climbs to about 60amps

so fingers crossed the controller just needs re-configuring

programing wire for controller turned up, but I'm having problems getting the usb driver for it, I'll have a hunt around

than and I need to drop my laptop back to winxp, apparently driver won't work under win7 :-o



so fingers crossed for tomorrow


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## knighty (Mar 16, 2017)

bit of a faf sorting out drivers and curtis program... in the end I ran it under win7.... it crashed each time I changed a few settings... could change 4 or 5 and then the program would crash... so just ran like that and kept restarting laptop with each crash

all settings were to 70 amps max and slow ramp up with acceleration, set them all to 250 amps and faster ramp up... all working great now!

the accelerator is a bit short... nothing happens till you;re foot is almost on the floor... but you do have full control over that last bit of movement, so can still drive slow 


thanks for all the help guys, you saved the day!


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## Sylent Green (Dec 10, 2013)

I believe I have learned more about EV motors on this thread than I have in all the different books I have read on the subject.
I really like how the engineering and the experience line up.
I would put this in the "must read" area for any newbie to the EV world.
It will help anyone to focus on what their needs (wants) are and have a successful DIY project.
It is further encouraging to know that there are a number of guru level enthusiasts who are more than willing to share their knowledge.

Just saying thanks

Kendrick


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

This a _*LONG*_ thread and the answer may be in here somewhere. I'm sure I'll stumble onto it sooner or later. (Yes, I am slowly making my way through.)

I have read here that a Warp9 is very similar to a 9" forklift motor. I have seen them used in numerous conversions. So far in our planning we are looking at a 144v system like Wolftronix's set up in his E-10. Unless of course technology changes before we make it to that stage.  We would like to find a forklift motor to start with though. What types of specs (voltage/rpm/???) should we be looking for on nameplates that would be compatible with a 144v system? 

We aren't looking for someone to do all the legwork for us, but rather some guidelines to help us weed out bad candidates ahead of time.

Like I said, the answer may be in here. I'll keep reading and hopefully I can find it, but so far this thread has had so much good information even if I do find it I'll finish reading to the end just to learn as much as I can.

Thanks

Added: We haven't gotten the donor car yet but it is looking like a Miata or now a Ford ZX2. The Miata is about 2200 LB (ICE'd) and the ZX2 about 2400 LB (ICE'd) Top speed of 55-60 mph for about 15 miles, but 90% of the driving would be at in town speeds of 25-40 mph. Range would be as much as we could get with a pack similar to Wolftronix E-10.


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## RvBrad (Jun 25, 2017)

Does anyone know if they make forklift motors capable of sustaining 400 ft/lbs or better of torque? 
What would I be looking for?


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## 217801 (Jun 13, 2017)

Direct drive? Or through gearbox or OD units? Something I have to consider also. As I'm chasing the 1000-2000ftlbs at the wheels.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RvBrad said:


> Does anyone know if they make forklift motors capable of sustaining 400 ft/lbs or better of torque?
> What would I be looking for?


If you mean continuously, or even for more than a few minutes, you're unlikely to find one. Suggest you size motor to power required and gear for torque. 

major


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Can anyone tell me if this motor is advanced?

Before someone makes the joke, yes it is an Advanced DC brand motor. 

I believe that I read on here that the easiest way to tell whether a motor is advanced is to simply look if the brushes do not line up with the pole mounting bolts.
The brushes appear to be a few degrees off on this motor. Although it seems unlikely that a 24V pallet jack would have a motor with advanced timing, but I would rather know for sure.
I need to advance the motor in the opposite direction and I am not sure if I should measure the degrees from its current position or from the 'dead center' aka from the pole bolt centerline.

Thank you.



















Another curious thing is that all of the hardware on the motor is metric.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matej said:


> Can anyone tell me if this motor is advanced?
> 
> Before someone makes the joke, yes it is an Advanced DC brand motor.
> 
> ...


My guess is that it was manufactured (intended) to be on neutral for a reversible fork lift application. Perhaphs manufacturing tolerance causes the apparent offset. Advance starting point would be present location IMO. 

Also, it appears the field terminals are smaller than the armature terminals. Could be a clue it is SepEx.

Regards,

major


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## losduos (Jul 14, 2017)

Hi,

AC forklift motors seem to appear more frequently on ebay these days, mostly rated to 36/48V pack voltage taking quit a bit of amps. Many of them rotate slow, around 1500rpm at 50Hz.
Can the motors be overvolted same as most of the DC motors? 

Cheers


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

losduos said:


> Hi,
> 
> AC forklift motors seem to appear more frequently on ebay these days, mostly rated to 36/48V pack voltage taking quit a bit of amps. Many of them rotate slow, around 1500rpm at 50Hz.
> Can the motors be overvolted same as most of the DC motors?
> ...


Cheers to you. No, AC motors (induction, synchronous PM or BLDC) can not be overvolted same as most DC motors. Doing so would quickly saturate it and cause overheat. With the AC motors you must increase the frequency in proportion to the voltage. There are often algorithms involved in the control which prove difficult or impossible to hack. You pretty much need to use the mating controller with the AC motor at its intended voltage and speed unless you have an engineer willing to tune the drive.

Regards,

major


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## losduos (Jul 14, 2017)

Thanks major,

So, even a programmable controller wouldn't work with such a motor? What do you think is the voltage limit, like actually 48V or is there some room for more. Let's say could you run it with a 57V Tesla module or is that way too much?

Cheers


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

losduos said:


> Thanks major,
> 
> So, even a programmable controller wouldn't work with such a motor? What do you think is the voltage limit, like actually 48V or is there some room for more. Let's say could you run it with a 57V Tesla module or is that way too much?
> 
> Cheers


57 is little more than a 48V lift truck battery hot off the charger so you probably have that much wiggle room. Depends where the controller OV set point is. 

Don't know what you mean "programmable controller". PLC? No. Curtis AC 1238 motor controller? Maybe, if you know the tuning parameters.

Regards,

major


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## losduos (Jul 14, 2017)

I heard those Kelly controllers are not the best out there but if what they say is correct they can configure it to a motor if they have the specs. I'm not saying it is that straight forward but maybe it could work?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

they look kind of pricey to me, as are 3 phase controllers generally, kinda goes against the beer budget "forklift" mentality. I mean of course it can be made to work to some degree, but it is expensive and complicated by comparison. Are you going to pay curtis to sort it out for you as well as spending $800 on a small-ish ac motor and a couple thou on a controller? 

This isn't making much sense in the bigger picture. Though I would encourage anyone to understand AC as well as they can. But start with DC, it is an order of magnitude simpler to understand, and is the benchmark by which ac control algorithms are compared (an ac controller isn't entirely unlike 6 dc controllers, with lots fancier logic coordinating them, but an induction motor is a very different beast).

There are a lot of skills needed for success with AC and/or a large pocketbook (and luck). Start small if you are trying to learn, and start w/dc, srsly, I made the mistake of trying to bite off AC from the get-go, and when I went back and dug deeper into DC a lot of stuff finally started making sense.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok, so I managed to pick up 2 decent sized DC motors (with a 3rd thrown in for free) and I need opinions as to their suitability for an ev conversion. I am looking at converting a Peugeot 306 estate and I need to be able to do 70mph as my commute involves a short stretch of motorway, and some fast A roads. I also want to retain the 1000kg towing ability of the car for short distances.

Pictures of the motors are attached. I believe they all came out of the same forklift, which was a sit down model rated at a fair size load.

Smallest motor looks to be rated for 0.9kw and is only about 5 - 6 inches across, so I would guess only good for a scooter or something similar.

Medium motor is the pump motor rated at 8.5HP at 3200rpm, but only at 15min rating (25%?). Might be okay for a light weight conversion, but probably not sufficient to push my beast up to 70mph and hold it there for any decent length of time?

Big motor is the main drive motor rated at 10hp continuous. It weighs about 120kg (as my toe already found out!) and is about a foot across. This is the one I was thinking of using, but the main reservation I have is the rated rpm. I am aiming to keep the original 5 speed box which will give me just over 40 mph at at the rated 1400rpm. To get 70mph in 5th I need about 2500 rpm, and to give me a bit of margin, I need 2750 rpm available. Is the motor going to be able to withstand pretty well double the rated rpm for at least 10-15 min or am I being overly optimistic here?

The provisional plan is to feed the big motor 120v using an open revolt controller (or other diy build controller) with a 1000amp power stage. I will be using the original gearbox and plan on retaining the (lightened) flywheel and clutch to simplify the "jump in and drive it" factor.

I have included pictures of the brushes, of which there are 4, for someone to cast their eye over. They look good, and not particularly worn, to me. I have also included a picture of the big motor next to the original motor that would live in the car as a size comparison.

Assuming that the big motor is suitable for what I want to do, where do i start with prepping it to achieve the above?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

need more pics of the big motor, i.e. brushes and maybe the field windings and commutator. Size wise it is comparable to a warp 11 http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=84

but looks like you need more volts and less amps than a warp.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Many thanks for the info dcb. OK,what specific bits of the brushes/comm do you want pics of? There is a pic of the current brushes in my post. There's 4 holders spaced equally (I think) around the comm. Do you think that motor will do the job?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

sorry, couldn't tell what was what. How many terminals does it have (and what size bolts are they?)

That maker has been discussed here before fyi:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...rome..69i57.9881j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I mean it will work, I just don't know how much you can over-amp or overvolt it, or how durable it is. Why not give it a good teardown, cleaning, and inspection while you have it? but start with a 12v "does it even turn" test.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

No worries chap. I think it has 4 terminals, 2 in a pair and 2 individual. The terminals are threads going into the motor housing with bolts in them. Thread diameter looks to be about M8 or so, but I will measure it.

Yep, I saw that post. The lb motor being discussed in that post looks like a latter version of the medium sized motor that I have. The big motor is substantially bigger than that one.

I will try and get it hooked up, but I could twist the shaft a degree or so by hand with all the brushes in place, so I'm hopeful it's not knackered.

Update: The motor appears to have 2 threaded connections that are diametrically opposed on the motor housing at the comm end of the main housing. These threads appear to have cables coming off the back inside the housing. I will put more pics of the comm and brush holders up tomorrow as my phone pictures need cutting down to get inside the forum limit.
I also tried popping the brushes out, after removing the brush springs, but 2 of them are stuck in the holders. The other 2 lifted out with finger pressure once the springs were out. I will try a bit of gentle persuasion on the other 2 hopefully tomorrow.


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok, so had a chance to get back to this. The motor will turn fine by hand if i use a bar and socket on the flange, and the bearings don't feel rough or notchy. Applying 12 volts to the 2 threaded terminals, does NOT result in the motor turning, even with a bit of assistance to try and get it moving . 

I measured the resistance between the threaded terminals and the brush holders. On one of the terminals I get a resistance of 320 ohms (i think) between the terminal and 2 of the brush holders, the other 2 holders and terminal I get infinite resistance (or that's what my basic meter is saying). I do however get sparks from either terminal when completing a circuit, suggesting that current is flowing. 

Pictures attached are close ups of the brush holders and comm, plus the field coil. 

I could not free the 2 stuck brushes from the holders with some gentle tapping so i looked for a way to take the end cap off to see if i could work the brushes out that way. The outer end cap appears to be held to the frame with just 2 captive bolts. I took the nuts off but could not get the cap to move. I may have to split the end bell from the main frame to allow me to work on it in isolation, as the brush holders will come away with the end bell.

Any suggestions on why the motor wouldn't want to turn on 12V if its free to rotate? Maybe the comm is overly dirty or the stuck brushes mean the circuit isn't completing properly? Next steps from here to get this motor up and running?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The traction (propulsion) motor needs to reverse on fork trucks since electrics don't use transmissions with a reverse gear. So the motor needs 4 terminals. 2 for the series field, S1 & S2, and 2 for the armature (connected to the brushes), A1 & A2. You need to wire the field in series with the armature to rotate. Like A1+, A2 to S1, & S2-.

major


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

major said:


> The traction (propulsion) motor needs to reverse on fork trucks since electrics don't use transmissions with a reverse gear. So the motor needs 4 terminals. 2 for the series field, S1 & S2, and 2 for the armature (connected to the brushes), A1 & A2. You need to wire the field in series with the armature to rotate. Like A1+, A2 to S1, & S2-.
> 
> major


Hi Major,

There appears to be only 2 electrically connected external threads on the motor casing, which suggests to me that the fork truck either had a transmission with reverse, or was a type that allowed the drive wheel to rotate to drive in either direction. 

The attached picture shows one of the two connections (the one with no bolt in it). The hole with the bolt in does not appear to be connected to anything and is not mirrored on the other side of the casing. The electrically connected thread is mirrored on the other side of the case, but only as a single connection.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

you probably need someone to take a look at it. We aren't getting the whole picture here. But something is definitely off and it is painful to extract the necessary information in this manner. 

I'm not sure what "mirrored" even means. Are you referring to the* small lump on the motor in the lower right?* which we have no clear picture of? or on the opposite side of the motor, which we have no picture of? And how are you even seeing a spark at 12v and 300 something ohms?!?










But if Major says they use electrical reverse, I wouldn't doubt it for a second. 

Maybe if you took it all apart and diagrammed where the brush leads go and the field leads go, CLEARLY.

You are our eyes and ears, and believe it or not we value our time. This is turning into a lot of effort for a $10 motor that looks like it was found by jacque cousteau.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

See the cross knurled brass cylinder with a hex bolt head near the armature? That looks like the insert molded into the terminals fitted in holes thru the motor frame which has been ripped loose and forced inside the motor, perhaps by dropping it or dropping/banging something on it. Sure doesn't belong there. And looks like it would scrape the armature. So avoid rotation until you figure it out. I'd say it's time to disassemble that pig.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Amazing that you caught that  The eyes of experience


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## mechsman (Dec 4, 2013)

major said:


> See the cross knurled brass cylinder with a hex bolt head near the armature? That looks like the insert molded into the terminals fitted in holes thru the motor frame which has been ripped loose and forced inside the motor, perhaps by dropping it or dropping/banging something on it. Sure doesn't belong there. And looks like it would scrape the armature. So avoid rotation until you figure it out. I'd say it's time to disassemble that pig.
> 
> major


Major,

Many thanks for the insight. Yes it's the connection that goes through the motor frame. There is one each side, diametrically opposed. The outside bit of the terminals doesn't look damaged, but I agree that it doesn't look correct. I don't think it's touching the armature at the moment but I will try and start stripping the motor next week. I will take pictures. I'm assuming that the best way would be to strip the comm end bell off with brush holders, then pull the rotor out (having removed the drive flange)? Is there anything I need to specifically be careful of when stripping it down? I will obviously label any cables etc that I disconnect.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Found an interesting motor...must have a hollow shaft for driving 'the other side' don't know yet if it has usable end plates.



























brake lever?









other side, must be a nice gearbox inside.


















about 12 inches.



























: (









25x20mm


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

Does anyone have experience salvaging parts from or working on older BT reach trucks?

There's one coming up in a local auction that I might go bid on but I'm finding very little info online. These are made in Sweden and there don't seem to be tons of them here in Quebec.

Can anyone tell me what I might expect to find inside beyond: traction motor + pump motor + steering motor in standard upright reach truck config.

My main interest is the traction motor for propulsion of a 1400kg low speed farm machine but the pump motor might also be of use and a lift mast for 3-pt hitch mounting is also of value on our farm so getting the whole thing would be a plus. And I can indulge my dismantling fetish

The truck is BT model RT1350 with a comparatively short 2-stage mast from what I can see.

Mostly I want to know if anyone has ever pulled a motor from one of these and how the traction motor is likely to be wound. I'm also hopeful I could reuse the controller at 48V and if it's all sepex that's fine with me as I don't foresee going over 48V for this project.

thanks in advance.

Reid Allaway
Tourne-Sol co-operative farm
les Cedres, QC


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Reid_in_QC said:


> Does anyone have experience salvaging parts from or working on older BT reach trucks?


It looks a lot like one I used and took apart later:
http://boekel.nu/foto/10/2010-11sloep/index2.htm

drive motor:









Pump motor:









Your steering wheel seems missing, other parts maybe also removed?
The steering system (orbitrol) is nice, I sold mine for 150 euro's


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Is it a three wheeler?
If it is you may find that the drive motor is part of a very heavy casting that makes up the third wheel steering - I had one like that - unfortunately that motor was only good for scrap metal

On a more cheery note the farmers here buy the mast and forks and put them on the back of their tractors - instant forklift


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

Amazing Boekel!

I asked for basic info and you provided detailed breakdown photos of almost identical machine. That's just amazing. many thanks.

I actually got hooked and looked through a lot of your photos. The teardown of the other BT lift is great. Looks chilly working on the dock in the snow!

Thanks so much. Super interesting.

Yes Duncan, farmers around here like an extra forklift mast too. Lucky for me I'm one of them and I've been thinking I'd like another 3-pt mounted forklift for a couple years


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## Constant K (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi all,

This is my first post, looking for some input and opinions on a motor I recently picked up for $40 Canadian. I imagine it is too small for even the smallest car, but am thinking more about something like a motorcycle, or streamlined vehicle. 

There was no nameplate and the previous owner did not know from what application it was salvaged. He had some three hundred 'scrap' motors in his garage, but most were much too small and AC. 

Hopefully my attached pictures work.

Series Wound DC
Bare motor weight: 44.4 pounds
Length: ~9-3/8"
Diametre: ~6-7/16"
Shaft: 1" diametre for 2.046" then stepped down to 3/4" for 15/16", 1/4" keyway, 15/16" nut on the end didn't measure the thread.
It has what I assume is a friction brake wheel(marked with number 20491) on the 1" part of the shaft, and a 15 tooth sprocket on the 3/4" step of the shaft.

Spun up fine on 6 volts and 12 volts. No idea of RPM.
Did notice a catching part when turning by hand, perhaps bad bearing?

CE aluminum casting has 20361 stamped on it.
DE aluminum casting with digits M19 cast in it. It also had a brass plate with M461 glued to it.

Also has a cast aluminum mounting bracket held on with for socket cap screws. Has markings 105 LA cast into it.

5/16 Field studs.
1/4 Brush studs

Brushes move freely, and were easy to take out for inspection, all looked good to my untrained eye(maybe some tiny pits from arcing?).
Springs are coil type.
4 Brushes, X84s1(Ebay brush X84s1 looked different though)
1.371x0.315" and ~1.5" long.
~1/8" thick lead(seams small?)
Lead ~1.5" long

The brush holder assembly design is such that it can be advanced and retarded a wide range, but looks like it might be rather difficult to align and rather free floating...

I opened it up to take a look inside. Only two long 1/4" bolts sandwiching the endplates on. Quite dirty inside, varnish seems very old, peeling a bit from the frame, but holding tight on the coils. I measured for resistance from stud to frame/body. Infinite resistance.
Interestingly(I think) the coils were all paralleled, four leads to each stud!? I couldn't see what the coils were made up of, but the leads from each coil were square profile about 0.110" across(a tad small?).

Pole shoes had varnish on the armature facing side. All were scratched up, I'm guessing from crumbling varnish or other material getting in between the armature and shoes.

Resistance from stud to stud was 0.4 ohms, but using a cheap voltmetre is most definitely not a very accurate way to check. If all coils are parallel, then 1.6 ohm resistance per coil?

Comm has 25 bars, is a bit dull and looks a tad reddish(sign of overheat?).

CE bearing: 1202KLD3 (google 1202 says self aligning?)
DE bearing: 6205- 2RS

In my search to find a method to estimate a potential rating for this motor, I found a couple guidelines here on Diyelectriccar, but I'm thinking they are very rough, and potentially inaccurate. 
One being something like 18v per comm bar per brush? But they also subtracted 2 for some reason, so using the formula I saw.
25 bars/4-2 = 4.25 which is then multiplied by 18, =76.5V

I also saw a rough estimate for amperage per square inch of brush, being about 100a. I guess that is continuous? 
1.371x0.315x2(2 brushes per polarity)= 0.86373, or ~86 amps.

So perhaps 76.5V by 86A, giving 6.579KW continuous? (8.82 HP)

So what do people think?

I'm hoping with a good cleaning and new bearings it will be good to go, but perhaps the varnish flaking off the inside of the frame needs to be dealt with. Also, what are the implications of all fields being parallel? Also I'm guessing it needs forced air for the comm end if I want to get the 6.5kw continuous?

I can take more pics if needed.

Thanks in advance for any help or input.

K


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi K,

Nice descriptive write-up and photos. I'd like to see the other end of the armature winding to tell if it a single turn per slot or multiple. If it is a single turn (hairpin) like most fork motors, then with 25 bar comm, she'll be screaming fast at that 76V. 

It really looks like a stout little motor. I don't recognize it. Strange for a fork truck. Obviously reversible so likely set to neutral. Running higher voltage (was probably originally a 12/24V motor) may benefit from an advance. Those brush pigtails do seem rather thin. Could be limiting factor on current. I doubt you'd be able to force ventilate enough to get 6kW continuous. Motors that size, self ventilated, go around 3hp for one hour if class H. No telling what class insulation you have there. Likely F, or H. Don't worry about varnish flaking off the metal parts as long as the coils stay put.

Comm looks nicely filmed. Leave it. Clean the undercuts (slots between comm bars) with pick. 2RS on bearing means seals, high temp with permanent high temp grease. Use on both ends. 

I think it'd make a nice EMC, electric motorcycle. Good luck.

major


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## Constant K (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi Major,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I appreciate you sharing your insight.

Haha, I'm guessing 'screaming fast' is too fast!?
I tried to get some photos of the armature, showing how it was wound, but it is pretty difficult to see with all the varnish, tape, and insulating paper. DE of the armature has a top layer of about 48 wires(probably 50?). It's hard to see, but I can count at four wires at the DE per slot, but could only trace three at the CE. At the CE I can see two go one direction, and one in the other. 

I can't deny I'm a tad disappointed about the news. Oh well. Expectations are a source of suffering. 

What are the implications of the four field coils being parallel? I tried to find info on the web, but couldn't find a clear explanation, I guess I could do some reading on motor theory. Would changing the coils to series-parallel, or to series, reduce the speed, and allow higher voltages and thus lower amps and heat? 

Thanks again Major,
K


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd guess two turns per coil wave wound armature making it similar to a 50 slot single turn so "screaming" won't be so bad. Going to series parallel on the field coils will increase torque & decrease RPM but not as much at high load where you saturate. There increased field resistance will drag down RPM and cause heat. Might be worth a try. Avoid attempt at 4 coils in series. That'd do more harm than good.

major


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

I am in the midst of a 1970 VW beetle electric conversion and wanted some advice on which motor to pick. I'm on a tight budget and can't spend much.

Here is one motor for sale on eBay but is for a milk float. The description says its good up to 72v but only 1750 RPM. Is that enough? I'd only be using it as a runner for going into town, city, 50 mph possible? Without spending a fortune on batteries?
Is it worth going to view it? What should I be wary of at first glance?
Any info at all would be great. Thank you 

note: It is also 100 kg which is like a 1/9 of the whole vehicle and 22 inches long?


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi; Massive overkill unless you want to go drag racing. It looks similar to an Electro Dynamics 9" milk float motor that I used in a Daihatsu Charade, which only weighed 47kg and was plenty for the 1000kg car. My current Suzuki Carry has an 8" forklift pump motor, and with only 5x12v 80ah batteries will reach 80k and on flat ground and will pull away in 5th gear. It doesn't like hills and only gives 10k range. In the 50k town limits 3rd only is used, and with going clutchless it is easy driving (albeit only for a short while). These figures are unimpressivebecause, like you, I am funding challenged. It is very frustrating to read of the conversions of others with better funding, but it will still be a rewarding project for you. A thorough study of government regulations is a must before doing anything. This paid off for me when the engineer surprised me with a reduced price because only one inspection only was necessary. In AU, under the AS3000 standard it was approved by a Licensed electrician; the only difficulty being some leakage between high and low voltage . The work will be hard, but the first drive makes it all worthwhile


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Hi, Thanks for the info

So I guess I was over-calculating how much power is needed and what motor too huh? 
Do you think an 8" forklift pump would suffice for a beetle? After all, It won't have to move much more than me and the vehicle as I will be stripping it down for weight reduction. 

- thanks


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi; Massive overkill unless you want to go drag racing. It looks similar to an Electro Dynamics 9" milk float motor that I used in a Daihatsu Charade, which only weighed 47kg and was plenty for the 1000kg car. My current Suzuki Carry has an 8" forklift pump motor, and with only 5x12v 80ah batteries will reach 80k and on flat ground and will pull away in 5th gear. It doesn't like hills and only gives 10k range. In the 50k town limits 3rd only is used, and with going clutchless it is easy driving (albeit only for a short while). These figures are unimpressivebecause, like you, I am funding challenged. It is very frustrating to read of the conversions of others with better funding, but it will still be a rewarding project for you. A thorough study of government regulations is a must before doing anything. This paid off for me when the engineer surprised me with a reduced price because only one inspection only was necessary. In AU, under the AS3000 standard it was approved by a Licensed electrician; the only difficulty being some leakage between high and low voltage . The work will be hard, but the first drive makes it all worthwhile


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

My 8" will over-volt up to the AXE7235 controller limit of 90v without problems. I used the old heater fan to force air into the brush end and a 12v caravan fan to draw it out the other end. I did this after melting a brush holder on the 9". Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will advise about overvolting:??


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Meadeor

That motor would be fine - it looks similar to the one on my car 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p2.html?highlight=duncan

IMHO an 8 inch is just a bit too small - a 9 inch is about minimum

Use the motor referenced - good price! - and a Paul & Sabrina controller - the kit is about $600 but you can buy an assembled one - and about 144 v

with that you will be able to leave it in top gear and do about 120 kph

For a battery I would suggest a Chevy Volt pack if you can get one

I paid $1800 US for mine

The problem will be getting to your place - I was lucky there is a Hot Rod Import place here and they get several container loads from California every year

I started off with Headways - not too bad but the OEM batteries are tons better AND cheaper


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback guys, 100kg just seems quite excessive in comparison to the total weight for just the motor? Or is that normal? 

I think 72v will be more in my price range but I hope to upgrade to 144v in the following months once I have a solid conversion to work up from. 

Do you think that original motor will be too overpowered, should I look around for a 9" because that motor is rather large in comparison to other builds I have seen? (22")

thanks

(I'm on a budget similar to Ben Nelson in his original Electro-Metro series)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The size in inches refer to the diameter of the main steel case. You would not even consider a 22" diameter motor.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Meadeor

150 pounds is CHEAP - most people spend more like 2000 pounds on their 9 inch motors

A 9 inch motor will weigh about 60 kg - and would be better for you than that motor

BUT do you really want to spend over 1000 pounds to save 40 kg?

And 72 volts will be useless - top speed maybe 40 mph


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

I'm no expert here but I've been shopping for motors for a couple projects and unless I misread the eBay listing linked by Meadeor the motor in question is 12" diameter, approx 22" long and weighs 100kg or 220lbs. Without knowing anything more than those figures it already seems really excessive for a VW beetle build. We're not talking about the difference between an 8" an 9" motor (unless I'm out to lunch and we're talking about armature diameter or something) but whether a 12"x22" 220lb monster is appropriate for a 2000lb car project. My inexperienced vote is NO.

Maybe good for a small bulldozer project, or a miniature locomotive. Of a small delivery truck. For milk perhaps.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> I'm no expert here but I've been shopping for motors for a couple projects and unless I misread the eBay listing linked by Meadeor the motor in question is 12" diameter, approx 22" long and weighs 100kg or 220lbs. Without knowing anything more than those figures it already seems really excessive for a VW beetle build. We're not talking about the difference between an 8" an 9" motor (unless I'm out to lunch and we're talking about armature diameter or something) but whether a 12"x22" 220lb monster is appropriate for a 2000lb car project. My inexperienced vote is NO.
> 
> Maybe good for a small bulldozer project, or a miniature locomotive. Of a small delivery truck. For milk perhaps.


Yep you are no expert!

That motor is not ideal - a 9 inch would be better 

BUT it will only save 40 kg - and it will probably COST a small fortune 

I'm using something similar on my 800kg - 1760 lb car 
- and I don't think you will be able to get a VW down as light as that - not when you actually weigh the thing

And my motor is LOVELY - goes really well

Too big just means a wee bit of extra weight (40 kg) but it also means a huge amount of extra robustness if you decide to give it a bit more welly


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Right of course I thought it was in relation to length, which makes less sense now I think about it. The motor I'm considering is 12" in diameter and is meant for 72v but I'm sure would withstand over voltage of 144v. It's DC which I have read is easier for conversations and at 72v says it spins at 1700 approx RPM. Is it worth the £150? Or even a little trip to view it?

Once again. All this advice is much appreciated.


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Also, are batteries like https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253245422683 a very good idea.
Say I have 8 to create 96 volts and but being on 35ah each will only give me 280 ah total, which I'm right in saying is a very small capacity for an EV, yes?

Thanks all -

(Basically, should I prioritise capacity over voltage or the other way round)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The motor looks like a good one - and about 1/20th the price some people pay

Batteries
Those batteries are no use whatsoever - none at all

Forget lead
You can buy second hand Volt or Leaf batteries CHEAPER than lead and they work a whole LOT better

When you get some batteries you can put them in series or paraleel

In series the voltages add up
in parallel the Amp hour add up

Those 12v 35 Ah batteries
10 could be 120v and 35 Ah
or 12v and 350 Ah

BUT there is a problem! with Lead Acids that 35 Ah is at the "20 hour rate" 
Which means that if you draw 1.75 amps - THEN you will get 35 Ah
Which is no good at all for an EV!

At a more sensible discharge of 70 amps - then you will only get about 15 Ah

WAIT - it gets worse! - those are NOT deep discharge batteries you will be able to charge/discharge them to 80% - or you will kill them dead
Which means that you can only use 20% of 15 Ah - which is 3 Ah

If they were deep discharge - which cost a LOT more - then you would be able to go to 50% - You would get a whopping 7.5 Ah


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Right okay, my experience with batteries is at a much smaller scale with scale RC builds so I need to read up some more. Thanks a lot for the information on getting the correct capacity and how those correctly sum to. 
I think I'll go for that motor then. Any key things to look out for when viewing and potentially buying the motor? 


- thanks guys

Also is there a bare minimum I need for the vehicle in terms of what batteries I can use, the leaf and Chevy volt packs are out of my price range honestly. If I want to use the car for say a 40 mile range with the ability to go 60mph? Is there a conceivable chance in getting a battery setup for under £400 or like $500? 
Any info fully appreciated!


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

You dont need a full pack. 1/2 pack might work so you buy a full pack and resell what you dont use. Or buy components like a leaf module one at a time.

Baby steps


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Meadeor said:


> If I want to use the car for say a 40 mile range with the ability to go 60mph?


If you use 300Wh/mile as a general energy use figure you'd need a 12kWh pack to get 40 miles. If the car is closer to 250Wh/mile, (probably would be), you'd need 10kWh. You'll want some extra buffer of course for bad weather and to avoid running the pack to zero.


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Thanks for the information, I will definitely look into using a bolt or leaf pack - just need to find some cheap enough!  

Thanks


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## mrarmyant (Jun 19, 2008)

I am stateside and converting my sailboat (about 30ft, 8k pounds) and am going to use the 12 cell modules (7 of them) from a Chevy Volt Pack. I already have a Curtis Sepex 48v/400 amp controller, and am now looking at motors like http://bullseyeindustrialsales.com/...c-motor-from-raymond-model-60-forklift-105030

I need to call around locally to see if any forklift repair places in Dallas have spare motors. I have found nowhere that mentions the current draw to give me a current rating on these motors so I can get an estimated power rating. I think i need about 6kw to propel the boat (sailboat, only looking for about 6-7 knots top speed)

Anyone have any recommendations on where to source the forklift motor and how much motor is actually needed for a boat at hull speed?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

How big is the boat? My in-laws 48' sloop will do about 6 knots on 12kW.


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

I had luck finding an 8" sepex motor from a Raymond forklift. I found it through local classifieds from a retired forklift tech who finally decided to clean out his garage. I had few responses when calling around forklift shops. Hard to get the right person on the phone. I think you might need to target a few and drop by in person.

I think you'll find sepex motors more often in standup forklifts, 3-wheelers, and pallet trucks. In fact, a larger pallet truck motor would likely provide enough power for your needs. Even a good golf-cart sized 6.7" sepex would probably be good at 48V. If you're stuck looking at new there's this one from D&D and I think they make one other larger sepex.

I do think you're on the right track with your plans and guesses for power. I wonder if 7x12S Volt battery is overkill. If you're not sailing in remote areas and need 8hrs motoring time you may be able to get away with using only some of the seven 48V modules and save the rest for another project or resell them.

Others on the forum, like Boekel, have really good knowledge of electric power in boats. I'm a newb who used to sail so don't fault me if I'm wrong or take my advice as accurate without further verification

~ reid


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Hey, just like some advice on this eBay listing here Would be used on a VW beetle conversion with a voltage of 72v. I'd like to achieve maybe 60mph with a milage of approx 25 miles which I calculated at 7.2 kW 

thank you for any information in advance.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Meadeor said:


> Hey, just like some advice on this eBay listing here Would be used on a VW beetle conversion with a voltage of 72v. I'd like to achieve maybe 60mph with a milage of approx 25 miles which I calculated at 7.2 kW
> 
> thank you for any information in advance.


Hi Mead,

If it was in good condition and properly installed, it might do the job for you, but not much guts to spare. So a strong blower may be needed to cool it.

It does have a few negatives. Dirty as heck. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But may indicate a lack of maintenance. And contaminated or damaged commutator. Bearings likely need replaced. That is a 13 tooth helical gear cut on the output shaft. Difficult to adapt. 

Regards,

major


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I've heard the helical teeth shafts are hard to adapt. Would it be worth trying to grind them down so it can be coupled normally?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Meadeor said:


> Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I've heard the helical teeth shafts are hard to adapt. Would it be worth trying to grind them down so it can be coupled normally?


IIRC, the gear is case hardened to Rc 58-63. Like file hard. And you need a round concentric true surface to within a couple thou or better. Not something many can do with hand tools. But with skill and resources, doable.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might be able to use a taper lock coupler to clamp down on it and just treat it as a regular solid shaft. Etischer did something like that with his motor as I remember.


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

I'm definitely considering it. I'll ask for some measurements as I'm not sure how strong the shaft would be after such a substantial amount of material is removed. It's one of the cheaper motors I've come across in the past months - not much up for sale in my area within my budget so I might just have to go for it. I have access to the required machinery to modify it to fit a taper lock (or similar) as suggested by _JRP3_. 

Are there any specific coupling methods you would suggest to get the best connection and solid transfer of rotation?

Thanks


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Meador

If you're anywhere near Newcastle I have a 7.25 inch Prestolite motor with a keyed shaft that may be suitable for your bug. There are a couple of photos here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=214252#post214252

Message me if you're interested.
Malcolm


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

I appreciate the offer but I live in Suffolk - thanks though


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## Meadeor (Jan 10, 2018)

Hello, I received the measurements for the forklift mentioned earlier.I'd Like to hear your thoughts on the 'doability' of grinding off the helical teeth as well as if it is suitable to be mounted to the transmission of a VW beetle. 

"shaft diameter 28mm, worm tooth 5mm narrowing down to 1mm, motor length 280 mm, 170 motor diameter, pump length 95 mm"

I also wondered if there are any thoughts on what motor controller to use. I'm pretty set on just building my own loosely following Paul and Sabrina's original 144v 500amp controller designs. But any alternatives you guys have would be much appreciated - I can only spend a few hundred on it though.

Thanks - Meadeor


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

Just for fun I want to post a forklift motor question regarding a motor that's actually going to stay in a forklift. 

I just bought a used Daewoo/Doosan B30-S forklift for our farm, happily replacing our older LPG Daewoo/Cat lift that's getting long in the tooth and also isn't electric and might have a failing head gasket.

Also the electric lift came pre-modified with a huge 23kWh lithium battery! assembled out of BAE/A123 cells. Given what I paid at auction (nobody else knew what the batteries even were) it was like buying a bunch of good lithium at $60/kWh and getting a free forklift as wrapper. Okay I'm done gloating.

Anyway, I want to reduce the battery pack, probably put in some steel or concrete for counterweight and use some of the modules for other conversion projects but I also want to get the lift back in service. The drive motor has some damage to the comm and part of the brush holder looks, well, destroyed, but I'm not discouraged yet - just a wee bit apprehensive.

My plan is to pull the motor out (which should be amusing) and pull off the rear end to replace brushes and clean up comm. I'm planning to order a new brush holder and brushes right away as long as it's not crazy expensive. I'll probably replace the bearings but thought I might wait to inspect. The lift only has 2000 hrs and is generally super clean (indoor use).

My questions are for the more experienced DC motor rebuilders out there.

Should I absolutely plan to do both main bearings in this motor at 2000hrs with comm looking like it does in pics?

Does this kind of damage to comm and brushes and brush holder suggest serious abuse and other problems are likely lurking or is it just the result of coke-snorting 20-something lift operator  and the damage is probably limited to what I see at the comm end?

Can I take the armature to a neighbour's lathe and turn down the comm a couple thou, clean it up with compressed air and call it done? I'll go search for past posts on comm reconditioning but if you can steer me to good ones that might help.

If the drive motor shows this kind of wear do I need to also pull the pump motor and inspect it? Please say no, pulling the pump motor looks even less pleasant.

Insights are most welcome and sorry to be keeping this lovely 11” beast tied to its original vocation as a forklift motor but some of us need forklifts too.

~ Reid Allaway
Tourne-Sol co-op farm,
les Cèdres, QC


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I would suspect that you will find the brush holders and brushes quite expensive

And I'm not at all sure that you need them!

Take it apart and have a look at the bits - it looks to me as if it's OK - just looks like somebody has bodged on some extra bits - measuring temperature??

I think that you will find that it does not need new brushes and brush holder - and 2000 hours is not a lot for the bearings

Looks like a great buy!

When you do get it apart post pictures for the real experts (like Major) to comment on the com film


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## steveob (Nov 10, 2017)

Are those forklift cells bolt together? What is the minimum number in parallel you can get with that? I mean a 24kwh forklift is a nice thing too, should run all day/week. Or you can leave it on the low side of charge so it lasts longer (do an initial balance or at least spot check the balance).

If it is a bolt together, I wonder if there are cell/block current limits.


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

Duncan is right about OEM brush holder and brush kit. $750 for the former and why not another $700 for the latter. I only paid $1500 for the lift and that included a lot of good batteries so, as usual, the OEM parts option is not really an option for me.

The little wires are brush wear indicators built into each brush. Some overheated to the point of destroying their insulation jacket and others look okay. Mostly it looks the brush and comm region got pretty hot a number of times. One brush sleeve, seems to be brass, has a melted portion collected in a little ball at its base 

I guess pull the back end or the whole motor and see if I can rebuild the brush holder or I'll call around for scrap but this model of lift doesn't seem too common. I'll post better pictures when I make some progress. Glad to hear that the comm doesn't look as bad to you as to me

Re: Steveob's questions about the batteries I'll start another thread in the right place to discuss them. As far as I can tell they're pulled from retired buses equipped with BAE's Hybrid-drive diesel-electric drivetrain. BAE either built the modules or had them built by A123 on their spec. I've also found pics of a grid-type fixed array using similar modules. They were definitively not intended for forklift service and aren't yet configured very well or very safely but they seem like great batteries and the price was unbeatable so I picked them up and look forward to reworking the setup to suit my needs and preference for fewer exposed conductors  Modules are 12S8P, 40V nom. assemblies of A123s older format ANR26650 cells. Link to battery thread coming.

thanks for all the info and hints.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Reid_in_QC said:


> ~ Reid Allaway
> Tourne-Sol co-op farm,
> les Cèdres, QC


Love that battery pack. I have a few of those singe cells. I'd bet that would be a sweet pack. I'd like to get my hands on some of those large modules built with those cells.


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## steveob (Nov 10, 2017)

Reid_in_QC said:


> I'll start another thread in the right place to discuss them.


please do. If I read it right you are looking at potential 400kw $1500 pack there. The motor has some melted bits you say...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re your damaged motor

I paid $100 for my motor
Which after 5 years of abuse has died on me!

So I found a forklift "breaker" - he has a "pile" of motors and he wants $200 each

It's about two hours away from here so I won't be able to get there until week after next - I intend buying a couple - see what he has

Shipping one to you would be toooo expensive BUT - If you post enough details and he has one of your motors then it may be worth buying it and shipping you the brush bits

Also - I managed to find a forklift breakers here in NZ - I'm sure there are several near you


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> Duncan is right about OEM brush holder and brush kit. $750 for the former and why not another $700 for the latter.


Doosan OEM parts can be really pricey. Sometimes, but not always, they are available cheaper through TVH. If you want, PM me the S/N and motor p/n. I can try to get you a price for comparison, I work for a Doosan dealer. There are suppliers that make custom motor brushes as well like this company. http://www.carbonbrushsupply.com/ I'd be checking the pump motor as well. It often works harder than the drive.

Nice find on the battery, but you really need to replace the weight lost by removing the original battery as it affects lift capacity.


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

puddleglum said:


> Nice find on the battery, but you really need to replace the weight lost by removing the original battery as it affects lift capacity.


Yes indeed! The lithium pack that the previous owner had assembled weighs only 700lbs. Spec weight for this lift's battery is min 3425lbs max 4150lbs. I can grasp enough about counterbalance to know that this needs to be remedied for safe operation - though I'm unlikely to ever use all 6000lbs of lift capacity. Currently I'm considering reducing the size of the lithium pack by about half and filling half the battery compartment with concrete or a stack of steel plate to provide adequate counterweight. I haven't yet done the math to see if that would sort it.

Thanks puddleglum for the link to carbon brush folks. Part nos here rather than PM so it's archived for others in the future.

Daewoo/Doosan Part nos:
lift model B30S s/n: BA-00009
drive motor	916100	s/n 9807041 (half illegible)
brush kit 916183
brush holder	916145

I found a set of brushes on eBay listed as p/n 552385 that look close. Have to check with seller for cross reference.

thanks all


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

Just a quick post to share pics of the moderately destroyed brush holder and thankfully salvageable commutator on my 11" Daewoo drive motor.

I managed to get the back end off without pulling the motor but I think I'll end up pulling the whole thing anyway to check the front bearing. It's likely okay but the rear bearing is toast as a result of the rather significant heat evidently produced in the vicinity of the brushes 

One brass section of the brush holder is in fact melted away and 7 of 8 brushes are damaged beyond repair. Oh well. various bits of bakelite or whatever and even fibreglass or asbestos ring are heat damaged too. Fine gauge wires on brushes are brush wear indicator circuit.

At least damage seems largely confined to the brushes and brush holder and honestly it's been coming apart pretty easily considering how it looks.

The commutator looks serviceable (to me) and there's no sign of overheating on armature windings. A quick clean of the comm with stainless brush shows visible pitting and burrs between segments but it doesn't look terrible. I'll do my research but if anyone has advice on turning a commutator with a stone or cutting tools I'm all ears.

That's it for tonight. Cold in the shop at this time of year. Spring is welcome any time.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> Daewoo/Doosan Part nos:
> lift model B30S s/n: BA-00009
> drive motor	916100	s/n 9807041 (half illegible)
> brush kit 916183
> ...


I'll see what I can find out when I get a chance. Doosan part numbers usually have a letter in front of the number like the eBay add. (D552385) Without the letter it won't come up as a good number but model and s/n may be enough. I think I would pull that motor right apart and get the comm turned. It'll give you a chance to fully inspect the rest of the motor as well, in case something went through it. 
I'm sure there is someone locally that can turn it for you. Maybe check with the dealer there and see who they use.


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## Constant K (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi All,
I've got a lead on a forklift motor and hoping for some input. Only have a handful of pics, might be able to get some more. It's listed as an 11" diametre, and looks to be about 13-14" long(though I'm not sure that is its full length even without shaft). Appears to have 8 brushes, though the brush holder pics are a bit unclear to me. Looks like a pretty wide comm. I can also only spot three terminals, I hope a second coil terminal is hiding on the other side, confirming with seller. Nameplate is hard to read, but at least shows 36/48V. Might be able to pick it up for 100-250$ He is also selling an GE EV-1 SCR controller, but I don't think I'd have use for it or any of its contactors, being they are probably rated for only ~48V.

Definitely larger diametre/heavier than I'd like, but I want to use it in a full electric first gen Honda Insight. Perhaps the motor size will help balance the front end, as I'm hoping to put 400lbs of a Chevy Volt battery(rearranged for 120-130V) in the back end.

Any and all input is welcome!


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## Constant K (Oct 27, 2017)

Hey Reid, nice find on those batteries! might be find of the century with that price per kWh. 
Just noticed that you are in Les Cedres, and must be from Tourne Sol(or maybe you posted that). I travel a bunch but have a room in St Anne de Bellevue, I'm sure I've seen you folks at the market. Good stuff!


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## Constant K (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi All,
I've posted a motor here before and got good responses/info. Thank you for that, unfortunately it all pointed to the motor I had not being suitable for my goals.

I have a lead on another motor, I have a bit of info and a few pictures, hopefully enough for some rough estimates.

11" Diametre (a bit overkill)
13-14" body length, but not sure from which point that was exactly measure, still waiting for pics of the other end.
Hard to read nameplate, but 36/48
Looks like double brushes, or just deceptive double springs and leads.

Looks like the comm end has either some interesting coupler or small brakedrum on it. Haven't seen drive end yet.

Selelr also has a GE EV1 SCR controller, but I don't think it or its contactors would be useable at my target voltage.

End goal is fully electric first gen Honda Insight, with a 400 pound Chevy Volt battery in the back reconfigured for 110-130V. This large motor weight in the front could help balance the front end weight vs rear, or maybe I'm just mentally trying to force this motor size because it's available...

Any and all info is welcome, Thanks!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Constant 
looks like a good motor

The only problem that you may have concerns the voltage that you will need 

With that much motor and a 500 amp controller you may as well leave your car in top gear

BUT with a similar motor and 130v my car was limited to 59 mph - 
At the higher rpms the back EMF reduced the motor current so that at full throttle and 100% PWM from the controller the drag and current matched at 200 amps and 59 mph 

My Device is NOT very aerodynamic and your Honda may go a bit faster
I would suggest a few more volts - 144v was a lot better
I'm currently using 340 volts


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> Daewoo/Doosan Part nos:
> lift model B30S s/n: BA-00009
> drive motor	916100	s/n 9807041 (half illegible)
> brush kit 916183
> ...


PM'd you with some pricing. Confirmed the 916183 brush set changes up to D552385 set.
Brush spring set 906175 is now a D552824. You should probably change those too. Heat has likely damaged them.
Motor 916100 changes to D552306

Good luck on your project.


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## ozwolf (Apr 1, 2018)

G'day, I'd be interested in comments on a motor I sighted today. A forklift dealer has a Nichiyu FB20PN 65 Series in the shop. It has reached the stage of not economical to repair, and may be up for scrapping by owner who purchased another forklift. I've attached a shot of the nameplate on motor.

Nippon Yusoki Co Ltd
Type DT-10BA-E1650
Output 10kW
Rated Voltage 48V
Time Rating 60min

This motor seems much bigger than I expected. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to measure the motor diameter, but I'll bet it's at least 12". My project will be a 1999 Suzuki Jimny conversion.

Ozwolf


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## JDubb (Apr 23, 2018)

Complete noob here, but I find this thread fascinating. I would like to pose a couple questions to the experts, regarding the environmental conditions a forklift motor would find itself in being installed in a car. The first question, regarding heat, has been discussed in this thread before, so just looking for a clarification here. I don't believe the second question has been asked before:

1) Heat. It has been mentioned numerous times in this thread that if the load is expected is to be lengthy or heavy in relation to a given motor size, a cooling fan should be installed on the motor. I understand most expectations are that a converted car using a forklift motor is expected to be an around-the-town, commuter-type vehicle, so perhaps this question is more just hypothetical:
Just as an example, if a stout 9" forklift motor, outfitted with an adequate cooling fan, is installed into 2800 lbs car, is there an expectation that such a setup could survive, say, a 4 hour non-stop drive on a freeway? (Again, hypothetically, assuming battery capacity is not a factor)

2) Rain/water/moisture. Given that the forklift motor is likely to be installed relatively low in the car, though it is protected by the hood from rain from above, the probability is high that the motor will receive splashes from puddles etc from below. What effect is this expected to have on the health of the motor? Presumably, when it was installed in a forklift, that motor was installed completely internally, and was shielded from the outside. What effects can one expect when that same forklift motor is then installed at the bottom of a car engine compartment, with the bottom completely exposed to the elements? Are forklift motors built to withstand such exposure?


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## PeterJohn (May 7, 2018)

Hi,

I'm green to all of this but I'm keen on learning and I've read a few of the pages of this thread, hoping some of you can point me in the right direction. With the rise of gas prices seemingly non ending, I have two vehicles sitting around that I inherited that I'm wondering whether or not can help keep my gas prices down. That said, I look at car conversion costs and basically in order to recover the money I spent on gas last year, some of these kits are cost prohibitive and would require about 6-7 years to recover. I realize there are other benefits to the environment in going electric, so I thought I might enlist the help of a few friends who could work with me on converting one of the two vehicles to electric.

I have a 1987 Honda Accord Lx and a 2002 Honda Civic Lx. The Accord needs a new transmission, but the Civic is running pretty good.

Both are automatic and after having contacted some kit manufacturers they're telling me that there is too much power lost on automatic to make it worth while. One was not very keen on lithium batteries either, for whatever that's worth.

I'd like to go this alone, but I'm afraid I have almost no knowledge as to what the power rating means.

Is there a guide for newbies like me, somewhat over a parts list and some technical knowledge on how to go about doing this with some friends, or am I way over my head without any knowledge whatsoever. More importantly what is the best way to go about accumulating the parts necessary at some better costs than what some of these kit companies are selling their for?

Thanks for your help, and all/any advice.

Peter


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Peter

If you are doing this to "save money" - then you are going to be disappointed

The cheapest motoring is just driving an old clunker

If you want electric then get an old manufacturers EV - something like a Leaf

Converting is like Hot Rodding - only a good idea if you want something special that is YOURS!

My car is a cheap one - and I have spent about $8k on it - mind you it goes like stink!

If you do decide to convert you need

Motor - I paid $100 for mine - and I've just bought a replacement for $150
Controller - the Paul & Sabrina one is about the cheapest - $600
Batteries - Chevy Volt Battery pack - start at about $1400
Charger - I got a second hand Brusa for $600
Wires, contactors, fuses, - $400

Good Luck


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## PeterJohn (May 7, 2018)

Duncan,

It's been something I've wanted to do for a while. I'm also tired of paying about $1.60/litre at the pumps. I'm in BC, and prices of gas are likely to hit $2/liter this summer because of our pipeline war with Alberta, so it's pushed me into explorng.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your motor from? 

I already have a gas guzzling pathfiinder to cart around my whole family. I'd like my second vehicle to go electric. I also despise paying $15k more for a leaf, and I hate the way they drive. I'm hoping to DIY, but I'm green.

Any other suggestions on where to start would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Peter

This is my car
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

Start with a motor!
You can use an AC motor - which will be expensive and wimpy
A DC motor which will be cheap powerful and a bit primitive

If I was building a new car I would try and get a crashed Leaf - and use all the bits!

10 years ago when I started that was not an option and I went forklift!

Forklift motors last almost forever - so what you need to find in the forklifts graveyard

Here - Bottom of South Island - a nice old guy called Graham appears to be the final destination of all old electric forklifts 
He had dozens of motors there!
$200 a piece
I paid him $150 for my last one because it was missing some brushes 

You need to try and find your Graham - you need to visit - phoning or emailing is no use - as many forklift repair places as possible

Take a couple of hundred dollars cash - you may be lucky - or you may get directions to your local breaker


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## PeterJohn (May 7, 2018)

I'm going to start calling around. Nice pics, how heavy is your car?

Is converting an automatic transmission a bad idea? So far I've been told there is too much power loss. Both of my donor vehicles are automatic and weigh about the same.

Thanks Duncan.

Pete


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## Peterboat#1 (Mar 1, 2018)

So I bought an electric motor for my boat the motor looks very new has new brushes in it and spins easy.
Its a series motor 48volt dc 5.2 kw and 140 amps its large about 160 Ibs 

On 12 volts its silent one way and whines/whistles the other way [it comes from the brush area] It is a traction motor rather than a pump motor.
I will be running it at 60volts although the controller will do 72 volts. Its going to be direct drive so the whole 144 volts isnt an issue for me with brush advance etc. It has a large cooling fan and pulls a lot of air though the motor. It also has a shield for the brushes with a cooling vent in it I am wondering whether it would be better to remove this to allow better cooling?
It is surrounded by the hull which is cooled by the water beyond so it shouldnt run to hot and I dont think it will be working hard in this boat


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

You'll smell it when you need extra cooling


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## nub (Aug 28, 2018)

Hi, I just bought a motor but not sure if it's good for conversion for a civic hatch. It's an advanced dc fa0-4001. About 9" in diameter and 16" in length, 72V 17.6KW. The guy I bought from said it has very low hours on it, practically new and to me looks in good condition. I hooked 12v to it and it runs, but haven't take it apart. There's no shaft to it. If anyone know more about the motor for ev conversion I'll be much appreciated. I tried searching but only found info on the fb1-4001. Don't know if what's the different if any between the two. Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

nub said:


> Hi, I just bought a motor but not sure if it's good for conversion for a civic hatch. It's an advanced dc fa0-4001. About 9" in diameter and 16" in length, 72V 17.6KW. The guy I bought from said it has very low hours on it, practically new and to me looks in good condition. I hooked 12v to it and it runs, but haven't take it apart. There's no shaft to it. If anyone know more about the motor for ev conversion I'll be much appreciated. I tried searching but only found info on the fb1-4001. Don't know if what's the different if any between the two. Thanks


Hi nub,

Nice looking motor. Obviously it is for the hydraulic pump drive on a forklift. As such, it may have some features to complicate use as a traction motor in an EV conversion. The main two are; 1) it is unidirectional and 2) it has an internal spline shaft making it difficult to mate to a tranny or driveline.

Regards,

major


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## nub (Aug 28, 2018)

@major, thanks for the reply. 1) I thought that the transmission take care of the reverse gear? Does the motor need to turn in reverse? Oh I googled and most engines turns CCW, my motor turns CW. Is it possible to rewired it to turn opposite direction? Or do I just drive in reverse 🙂 2) yeah I'm thinking of having to fabricate spline shaft to old clutch spline. Is there any other limitation(s) from my motor preventing it be used in a car?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Save yourself a lot of headache and find a series motor with a male shaft.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Save yourself a lot of headache and find a series motor with a male shaft.


Ya. About only good way is to replace shaft. Then to reverse a 2 terminal wound field DC motor requires internal modification.


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## nub (Aug 28, 2018)

I have the hydraulic pump for this motor, if I can't find a shaft that fit I'll chop it off the pump. From what I've seen so far, I'll have to fabricate an adapter anyway even if the motor have the male shaft to be connected to the transmission. If it's possible to reverse the direction internally, I'll try that. If not I have an sc400 w/ supra Mark lll tranny and two RX8 that the engine supposedly turn CW. None of those cars are running so I can put it in any of them. Besides those two concerns, are there any other that I may run into?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

nub said:


> If it's possible to reverse the direction internally, I'll try that. If not I have an sc400 w/ supra Mark lll tranny and two RX8 that the engine supposedly turn CW.


Engine rotation is normally described from the perspective of someone looking at the output (crankshaft) end. The vast majority of automotive engines rotate counter-clockwise (when viewed from the crank end)... and that includes Mazda rotaries and Toyota engines. Honda is a rare exception, due to the way they chose to mount their early transverse engines.

Now, if you are referring to the direction as viewed from the accessory end, then yes, the Supra and RX8 transmissions will be for "clockwise" rotation.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Then to reverse a 2 terminal wound field DC motor requires internal modification.


Does it only have 2 terminals?

I only see two from the viewpoint he photographed, but one is labelled D1 and the other A1. I presume there's an A2 and a D2.



> Save yourself a lot of headache and find a series motor with a male shaft.


I agree, but, it's not the end of the world to machine a male spline to match. I made mine with a hacksaw and sander in a couple hours. No special milling machines or nothing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Impressive. What was the application? Because if all that hand work had close enough tolerances and runout for an automobile I'm even more impressed.


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## nub (Aug 28, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Does it only have 2 terminals?


Yes, there are only two terminals and reversing the positive/negative it still spin in the same direction. Yes, I'm thinking of doing something similar to connect the motor to the transmission. 

For the direction of spin, I'm talking about looking the engine from the clutch side. Or at least that's what I thought when I look it up.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

JRP3 said:


> Impressive. What was the application? Because if all that hand work had close enough tolerances and runout for an automobile I'm even more impressed.


Electric shaft-drive motorbike.

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...nversion-1985-nighthawk-750s-junk-195073.html



> Yes, there are only two terminals and reversing the positive/negative it still spin in the same direction.


It's really not hard at all to make it spin the other way.

- There is an outside set of coils. Being just a loop of wire, it has 2 ends. Let's call them 1 & 2.
- There is an inside set of coils. Being just a loop of wire, it also has 2 ends. Let's call them 3 & 4.

Being a series-wound DC motor, the outside and the inside coils are connected in series. So it goes like this: -12-34-. And the 2 terminals you see are 1 and 4.

What you have to do is open it up and rewire it so that it goes like this: -12-43-. Or, -21-34-, but not -21-43-.

What matters is reversing one coil relative to the other. So one stays the same, the other flips.

How hard this will be to do... varies. Generally at this scale the "wire" would be more recognizable to you as a copper bar. But, at some point, it has to connect to something, and has to connect to the bolt terminal. So you just pick one set of connections and undo it. Best case there's already a heavy braid in there you can just swap. Worst case you'll have to add a pair of heavy copper braids.

You can just go to a junkyard and take the braid from one of the battery terminals. Usually there'll be some kind of heavier braid about 1" wide and maybe 3/16" thick. It might be, oh, 6-8" long before it splits off into other stuff. It'll be rated for 500-700 amps, so, good enough. Find two, pay a couple bucks, and you're ready for surgery.

It's easier to just not do that and pick a better motor, but, there's almost no technical challenge to it, it's just a little bit of time waste to reverse the direction. If it's an obstacle to find a better motor, it's a simple problem to overcome to rewire it so I wouldn't let that be something that prevents you from moving forward. (HA! Get it? "Moving forward"? Because yours would be stuck in reverse? Ha. Ha ha. Ha).


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## nub (Aug 28, 2018)

@Matt Thanks for the info on reversing the direction. Lol, or I can just drive my car with my back end in front, that'll turn some head for sure 🙂


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

nub said:


> Oh I googled and most engines turns CCW, my motor turns CW.





nub said:


> For the direction of spin, I'm talking about looking the engine from the clutch side. Or at least that's what I thought when I look it up.


Right: view from clutch side, and CCW is the common rotation direction for engines.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Does anyone have experience with AC forklift motors and their suitability for DIY EVs?

Seeing as how bike season is almost over here, I want to get started on a winter project of an electric car. I don't even have a donor car yet, (hence no separate thread) but, meh, details.

The local gent who runs the forklift yard told me he'd set aside a forklift for me to gut (he's merging 2 busted forklifts into one functional one). I went down there today and he mentioned... AC motor & controller.

*gulp*

Black magic to me.

Can I even do this with an AC motor? No one ever mentions using AC forklift motors. I have no context for criteria for acceptability.

It's coming out of this yellow Hyster:










Big AC motor on the right, hydraulic motor on the left:










A controller, or something, I presume:










Label on the controller:










The right half of the controller (separate box?):










The left half of the controller (separate from above):










...

I only had 20 minutes so I couldn't figure out how to actually take the motor out, he offered to put it up on jackstands tomorrow for me if I need to work on it from underneath to pull the motor.

Anyway, is anyone at all familiar with whether I could make this work? The controller especially scares me, I at least peripherally understand PWM and could maybe monkey my own controller with DC. With AC, wizardry.

Also, I'm getting it for the low low price of Free Ninety Nine. Nadda. Zilch. Though, I'm wondering if I should just politely refuse and wait until he has a suitable DC lift available instead.

Thoughts?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Does anyone have experience with AC forklift motors and their suitability for DIY EVs?
> ...
> Can I even do this with an AC motor? No one ever mentions using AC forklift motors.


There's nothing special about motors from forklift trucks - old forklifts being dismantled for scrap are just the most readily available and cheap source of usable motors.

Old forklifts had series-wound brushed DC motors, and that's what people mean by "forklift motor". The industry started switching to AC motors years ago (the company which made these controllers started the transition over 20 years ago), but forklifts last a long time and you don't get scrap used motors from recent equipment... so there has been little opportunity so far for people to get cheap AC motors this way and use them in conversions.

Controllers for AC motors like this are nothing new. AC controllers commonly used in conversions, such as the Curtis products, are really intended for industrial equipment such as forklifts - DIY EVs are a sideline for them.

The brand name on the controllers is "Danaher Motion". That branding was used from 2002 to perhaps 2014; the product line is now Inmotion AC Superdrive (ACS). It looks like these are ACS series 48-volt (nominal) input controllers. If you do an online search for the controller models (ACS4815 and ACS4820) you'll find them as replacement parts, worth hundreds of dollars each if "rebuilt". It might make sense to take the motor only if it comes with the controller, or you know that you can get a suitable controller cheaperly, and only if there is support (documentation, programming tools as required) for the controller that you will use.

Since this entire thread is really about traditional DC motors, perhaps there should be a new one for salvaging AC motors and the associated controllers.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> It's coming out of this yellow Hyster:
> ...
> Big AC motor on the right, hydraulic motor on the left:
> ...
> ...


That's certainly two AC controllers (rather than two halves of one controller), plus some contactors in the upper left corner of the photo. When you see a device with two big terminals for DC input, plus a set of three similarly big output terminals, you're usually looking at a 3-phase AC controller.

I think you'll find one of two situations - either

the two controllers are for the traction and pump motors, or
there are separate motors for each wheel (one of which you didn't see), and the two controllers are for the two motors.
In addition from switching from DC to AC motors, forklift manufacturers have also gone to using two motors, instead of one motor and a differential (although perhaps not on this Hyster). Since the two controllers in this case have different model names, and are called ACS4820-700C and ACS4815-525C, at a guess these might have 700 amp and 525 amp ratings... so it might be the first situation.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> I think you'll find one of two situations - either
> 
> the two controllers are for the traction and pump motors, or
> there are separate motors for each wheel (one of which you didn't see), and the two controllers are for the two motors.


I realized this after I'd posted. Yeah, almost certainly the hydraulic pump is also 3 phase. So the little controller is for the pump, and the big one the traction.



> In addition from switching from DC to AC motors, forklift manufacturers have also gone to using two motors, instead of one motor and a differential (although perhaps not on this Hyster).


Ha, my 1969 York forklift used dual DC drive motors, each smaller than the pump motor.

But no, in this case I'm almost certain it's single motor drive. Just AC.

Looks like a 48v 700 amp controller, but I can't find any info on it or a manual. Danaher is a conglomerate that just talks about Mission and Feeling and doesn't actually say at all what they do, sell, or serve (#144 on Fortune 500). One thing did say for Danaher motors (don't know if that's what the big one is yet), they're usually 1450 RPM which is... ... slow.

I dunno that 48v x 700a is enough jam for a car. That's only 40hp. And the controller, again, black magic to me, as to making one work, modifying, building, buying. Hrm.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I realized this after I'd posted. Yeah, almost certainly the hydraulic pump is also 3 phase. So the little controller is for the pump, and the big one the traction.
> 
> Ha, my 1969 York forklift used dual DC drive motors, each smaller than the pump motor.
> 
> But no, in this case I'm almost certain it's single motor drive. Just AC.


That makes sense. If the pump motor is typically more than the half the power of the drive motor(s) then the 550 amp and 700 amp ratings certainly are plausible for pump and drive motors (with only one drive motor).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Looks like a 48v 700 amp controller, but I can't find any info on it or a manual. Danaher is a conglomerate that just talks about Mission and Feeling and doesn't actually say at all what they do, sell, or serve ...


I was updating my posts as I found more information and came to understand the situation better... so go back and look at the "Danaher" information. You need to look at Inmotion's website now, not Danaher's.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I dunno that 48v x 700a is enough jam for a car. That's only 40hp.


Have a look at all of the people using the HPEVS low-voltage induction motor products, for comparable configurations. They do run typically higher voltage for better performance... and users of DC forklift motors do that, too.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

brian_ said:


> Have a look at all of the people using the HPEVS low-voltage induction motor products, for comparable configurations. They do run typically higher voltage for better performance... and users of DC forklift motors do that, too.


Hi guys,

It's certainly possible to use higher voltage (and frequency) with that motor. Unlikely the controller will tolerate it. So you could get a Curtis, or even RMS. The big problem is tuning the controller to the particular motor. Typically that isn't going to happen for a one-off project. Occasionally, if you have the skills and equipment, you can hack an industrial controller which has an auto-tune feature. 

On the other hand, a smaller commuter car using that stock motor/controller at 48V wouldn't be too bad. I'd keep the tranny.

Regards,

major


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Might be a nice catch for a boat or indeed a smal slow driving car. if you can get the controller to work for you.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> It's certainly possible to use higher voltage (and frequency) with that motor. Unlikely the controller will tolerate it. So you could get a Curtis, or even RMS.


Hrm. But that sounds like it would cost money.



> The big problem is tuning the controller to the particular motor. Typically that isn't going to happen for a one-off project.


What does "tuning" entail?

My (very) limited understanding of 3ph controllers is that they just pulse a series of coils in sequence, and there's a H.E.S. that determines where it's at in its rotation so it knows when to switch the triggering.

I.E. I presumed that I could take this controller, hook it up a quadcopter 3ph motor or an E-bike hub motor and, though overkill, it would work just fine.

Could I take the controller from, say, a Leaf or Volt or something like that and feed it to this motor instead, or, is that a reverse-engineering nightmare?



> On the other hand, a smaller commuter car using that stock motor/controller at 48V wouldn't be too bad. I'd keep the tranny.


The, well, probably only reason I care for AC is because it's easier to electronically reverse and I can throw away the tranny.

Hrm. Beggars and choosers. Maybe I'll wait for DC.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hrm. But that sounds like it would cost money.


True, controllers are not cheap.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> My (very) limited understanding of 3ph controllers is that they just pulse a series of coils in sequence, and there's a H.E.S. that determines where it's at in its rotation so it knows when to switch the triggering.


Not quite. While "brushless DC" motors are often driven by just switching the phases on and off, a 3-phase AC controller produces three sinusoidal outputs, 120 degrees apart. With a synchronous motor (normally permanent magnet) the phase of the 3-phase power is synchronized with the rotational position, but with an induction motor the frequency of the 3-phase power is coordinated with the rotational speed of the rotor (note: not just matched to the rotor speed).



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> What does "tuning" entail?
> ...
> I.E. I presumed that I could take this controller, hook it up a quadcopter 3ph motor or an E-bike hub motor and, though overkill, it would work just fine.


Some controllers are workable for both induction and PM synchronous motors, but they need to be told which scheme to follow. Even within a given type, they need to be tuned like any control system, to adjust how the controller responds to what is going on in the motor. Since there are multiple tuning parameters, and the best values depend on the electrical, magnetic, and mechanical properties of the motor, it's not reasonable to just try everything or manually tune by trial-and-error.

A typical small controller contains both the control logic and the power inverters. In large units, there can be some degree of separation. Some projects in this forum are dedicated to using production EV power sections with custom control logic sections.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Not quite. While "brushless DC" motors are often driven by just switching the phases on and off, a 3-phase AC controller produces three sinusoidal outputs, 120 degrees apart. With a synchronous motor (normally permanent magnet) the phase of the 3-phase power is synchronized with the rotational position, but with an induction motor the frequency of the 3-phase power is coordinated with the rotational speed of the rotor (note: not just matched to the rotor speed).


I used to have a couple hundred egg-sized neodymium magnets I had no use for. Guess I should've kept them and made myself a new rotor.

How is the power "coordinated" but not "matched"?



> Since there are multiple tuning parameters, and the best values depend on the electrical, magnetic, and mechanical properties of the motor, it's not reasonable to just try everything or manually tune by trial-and-error.


I don't think I understand enough to even understand why I don't understand that.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just seems to me like it would work fine. What difference does sinusoidal make over pulsed, as long as you have 3 phases 120 degrees out of synch?



> A typical small controller contains both the control logic and the power inverters. In large units, there can be some degree of separation. Some projects in this forum are dedicated to using production EV power sections with custom control logic sections.


I'll have to look into those more.

https://electronics.stackexchange.c...een-ac-induction-motor-and-brushless-dc-motor <-- Half way down, *"As I said above, using the incorrect type of drive would result in a slight performance hit but it would other wise work."*

Is he wrong? And how "slight" might "slight" be? 10% or 75%?

I guess it doesn't really help me too much, I'd still need to build a controller that can handle higher voltages and, I presume, frequencies too.

Is that just a matter of swapping out the power transisitors (IGBTs or FETs I presume?) on the power stage for ones more appropriate or is it a complete restart?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Induction motor control*



brian_ said:


> With a synchronous motor (normally permanent magnet) the phase of the 3-phase power is synchronized with the rotational position, but with an induction motor the frequency of the 3-phase power is coordinated with the rotational speed of the rotor (note: not just matched to the rotor speed).





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> How is the power "coordinated" but not "matched"?


In an induction motor, the magnetic field produced by the stator windings rotates around faster than the rotor; the difference in their speeds is the "slip". There must be slip to produce any torque, because there is only a magnetic field produced by the rotor because the stator field is moving relative to the windings (usually just conductive bars shorted at the ends) of the rotor. If you feed an induction motor's stator power at exactly the rotor speed, it produces no torque. An induction motor controller needs to manage the slip, because both too little and too much produce less torque.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> https://electronics.stackexchange.c...een-ac-induction-motor-and-brushless-dc-motor <-- Half way down, *"As I said above, using the incorrect type of drive would result in a slight performance hit but it would other wise work."*
> 
> Is he wrong? And how "slight" might "slight" be? 10% or 75%?


That seems unlikely, and I think I see why...

It starts off okay, with this quoted information:


> Brushless DC motors are similar to AC synchronous motors.


Here's where it goes wrong:


> The motor in the above diagram could be called an "AC Induction Motor" or a "Brushless DC Motor" and it would be the same motor.


No - the equivalents would be AC permanent magnet motor and brushless DC motor... "brushless DC" motors are usually synchronous motors, not induction motors. The stators are equivalent, but the rotors are very different and the control logic is different.

With that error corrected, 


> There is no reason why the drives couldn't be swapped though there would be a minor hit to efficiency.


... this then makes more sense. It's not comparing synchronous and induction and saying that they are controlled the same way; it's comparing motors intended for simply switched 3-phase power and approximately sinusoidal 3-phase power.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*AC motor thread?*

The AC motor discussion is getting quite involved, and not specific to forklifts, so I think it would make sense to move this whole arc (post #3258 to here) to its own thread.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

*Re: AC motor thread?*



brian_ said:


> The AC motor discussion is getting quite involved, and not specific to forklifts, so I think it would make sense to move this whole arc (post #3258 to here) to its own thread.


Well, we go on for pages here about brush advancing and stuff like that.

This is still about the suitability of using forklift motors for EV conversions.

What is the new thread?

"Repuprosing Forklift AC Motors/Controllers"?

Or would this be off topic for that too?

No strong opinion. I don't even know who the mods are here.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I see some good information on stackexchange on occasion, but this isn't one of those times. Be careful what you believe. There are many texts and websites covering AC machinery. Learn the difference between synchronous and asynchronous machines. 

Hacking an AC system isn't easy and likely well beyond the capabilities of those looking to this thread for cheap conversion iron. I kinda took over for my friend Jim, the OP, so if my opinion matters, I don't much care if the AC subject stays here or goes elsewhere.

Regards,

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> Learn the difference between synchronous and asynchronous machines.


I think I know, but, when you have a beginner's understanding it's very easy to misapply the context.



> Hacking an AC system isn't easy and likely well beyond the capabilities of those looking to this thread for cheap conversion iron.


So, suppose I hook up a BLDC controller to this motor. What happens? Does it spin? Does it not spin? Am I looking a small hit in efficiency? Am I looking at a completely impractical hit to efficiency?

If I feed it square pulses versus smooth AC, so what?

If the coils are pulsed, in sequence, to a certain frequency... will the rotor not be magnetically dragged? If not, why?

For me, hearing a perfect "it's supposed to be done this way" explanation isn't as educational as "what are the consequences of doing it wrong?", I usually learn more about a thing when I learn how it breaks than how it works. But no one teaches things that way.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have used rectangular pulses to spin a three phase motor, and it worked OK, but efficiency and torque probably were not very good. BLDC controllers may require a shaft encoder, whereas a VFD for induction motors do not, although they may help.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I think I know, but, when you have a beginner's understanding it's very easy to misapply the context.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could enroll in an EE degree program. Or study on your own. Or break things. When you can develop more intelligent questions, I'll help. But no sense in me answering "What happens? Does it spin?" 

Regards,

major


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi all, Major is correct. Over the years Major has corrected many of my errors and prevented disaster. His suggestion of doing some kind of course is necessary if you want to progress beyond 48v dc. I am now finalizing my third vehicle for certification, 84 subaru 72vdc. Start low, don,t reach for the stars and enjoy yourself in safety.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> You could enroll in an EE degree program. Or study on your own. Or break things. When you can develop more intelligent questions, I'll help. But no sense in me answering "What happens? Does it spin?"


*shrug*

Okay, so I'm too stupid to ask more intelligent questions than basic questions founded in curiosity. I'll fix that by becoming an electrical engineer, nothing in between?

I'm certainly not entitled to your or anyone's help, but, I myself attempt to help out people at all levels of knowledge (and do), not just experts on par with my own knowledge on a topic.

Seems to be a bit of a frustrating gatekeeping and elitism 'round here sometimes. Like, if you're not an engineer you don't deserve to have this explained to you, or, I had to do it the hard way, you should have to do it the hard way too even if the point of this community is to make it easier.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> *shrug*
> 
> Okay, so I'm too stupid to ask more intelligent questions than basic questions founded in curiosity. I'll fix that by becoming an electrical engineer, nothing in between?
> 
> ...


I see you posting on jhuebner's thread. That would be a good one to study. Here's a couple of more.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=36602 

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982 

All these will indicate the complexity and time requirements. Or you might reconsider my suggestion and use the mating controller from the fork truck. Maybe that way you can figure out some sensible questions.

This reminds me of a reply to one of those 7000 helpful posts of mine. The fellow got very upset because I would not tell him how many turns to wind on his homemade motor coil.

Good luck,

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> I see you posting on jhuebner's thread. That would be a good one to study. Here's a couple of more.
> 
> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=36602
> 
> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=63982


So, let me start over. I'm not asking, or looking for someone to hand-design a controller for me specifically. I might be looking at how to repurpose something else, keep an eye on some other things that may show up that might be usable, or build something from plans.

I'm trying to get a grasp of what's involved, how it's different, what the tradeoffs are, and why.

Seeing 2200 + 1700 + 500 = 4400 posts of contextless, summaryless, technical design details isn't going to help me understand anything other than "This involves a lot of details".



> All these will indicate the complexity and time requirements.


Yes, I get that it's difficult.

That's like someone asking about replacing a diesel engine with gas, being told they're not smart enough, and here, go read 3000 pages of technical discussions on DIY engine manufacturing.

If the point is to point and laugh and say "You're too stupid, go be smart like a real engineer", yes, fine, I'm too stupid, you've got me. 

But you know what else I notice about all those threads? People put this huge amount of time into doing the engineering and design on an open source project... how many people does it help? How many people built something based on it? Seems a bit like it's engineers building things that only other engineers would know what to do with. Maybe, talking to a novice like they're expected to be an engineer, isn't the best approach to have the biggest impact.



> Maybe that way you can figure out some sensible questions.


I think my questions were sensible. I'm curious, and asking about the things I'm curious about, in the way that will incrementally build my knowledge the way that I know my brain works. Everyone learns differently. I don't get why you're dismissive of them or feel them necessary to ridicule.

For what it's worth, I've done about a year's worth of EE. It was a long time ago, but I did take classes on motors, including 3ph. Back then it wasn't VFDs and inverters, it was more power grid type stuff, and, again, I understand enough to do it perfect, I don't understand what happens when you change or modifying a variable much.



> The fellow got very upset because I would not tell him how many turns to wind on his homemade motor coil.


I'm not sure how I'm reminding you of that. Again I'm not saying I'm entitled to your or anyone's help, or asking you to do any handholding that applies to my situation only.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Major

Please don't get grumpy - 

I for one really really appreciate the way you explain things so numpties like me can understand a bit 

Please don't stop doing that


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

As I said, it is possible to spin a three phase motor using simple rectangular pulses, and you could make a DIY controller using a PIC (or Arduino) with some hi-lo MOSFET or IGBT drivers and a 48 VDC supply. 

Here is a paper on using an Arduino to make a simple three-phase PWM VFD, including schematics, parts lists, PCB layouts, and code.

https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/...ferer=&httpsredir=1&article=1129&context=eesp

That design seems to be a little "weird", perhaps because of the limitations of the PWM of the Arduino, but it shows how an inverter can be built. You don't need fancy FOC or vector algorithms just to spin a motor. Just use V/Hz for various RPM values and you'll be good. If you can get the motor (and controller) for free, there's not much risk, and with a 48V bus the danger is minimal (but NOT zero!) Why not start a new thread on a simple DIY VFD and document your progress.

More ideas:
https://hackaday.com/2012/01/19/building-a-variable-frequency-drive-for-a-three-phase-motor/

https://www.oxgadgets.com/2011/04/creating-a-variable-frequency-pwm-output-on-arduino-uno.html


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Major
> 
> Please don't get grumpy -
> 
> ...


Hi Dunc,

Been grumpy for many years. Might be gettin' worse.

Cheers,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So, let me start over. I'm not asking, or looking for someone to hand-design a controller for me specifically. I might be looking at how to repurpose something else, keep an eye on some other things that may show up that might be usable, or build something from plans.
> 
> I'm trying to get a grasp of what's involved, how it's different, what the tradeoffs are, and why.
> ...


https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78701

Here's a blast from the past. It should give you a grasp.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Drove to the yard last night, forgot my tools 40 miles away so I just scoped it out instead. Can't quite figure out how to get the motor out still. This forklift has 1/4" steel divisions all over and hoses and everything in the way.

I did manage to grab a shot of the nameplate:










http://en.evs-inmotion.com/products/tsptsw/ <-- Clicking on Specs and looking at 180/6-200.

It has 3 ratings: 
- S1 - *13kW*
- S2 60min - *18.5kW*
- S3 15% - *37kW* (90seconds/10 minutes presumably? Or are duty cycle times different from welders?). 

I presume I'm actually, probably fine on the 37kW, that's 50hp with basically no air cooling (forklifts go slow). 50hp is enough to go 100 miles an hour which I'll never do, so, it should be enough to hill climb at 60mph. Batteries won't last much longer than an hour, so I guess I'm fine using the S2 rating 

According to: http://www.enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm

I can maintain a 5% slope with 50hp at highway speeds for a typical size/weight of a commuter car.


RPM is the other issue. It's only rated for *1000 RPM*. On standardish diameter tires, 1000 tire RPM is roughly what's required for highway speeds. Meaning, I'd need an RWD car with a rear diff that's 1:1, or, I don't even know what's going on in FWD transaxles. And that's *if* the controller can push it that fast.

Anyone know whether/how safely I can exceed the RPM ratings? (Presuming a controller could do it). I haven't seen DC motors with RPM limits, but, generally they're spinning closer to 5k I thought.

...

Heard back from InMotion: 

"There is a fundamental problem in that these motor controllers are not designed or programmed to be stand-alone controllers - they are 100% custom programmed to work only in the particular forklift model that they were originally configured for. When you do not have the original vehicle master controller, and not the correct sensors and other components in the system there is essentially no chance to get them working."

"I am enclosing the controller product manual, but we do not have any documentation about the CAN communication between the master controller and the motor controllers as that is something that the forklift manufacturer have developed for their particular machine. I can’t prevent you from trying, I can only say that these units were never designed to do what you try to do. The manual will show pin out, and other relevant info but there are no software tools or documentation available to support with re-programming."

Which, is more or less what the rest of you were saying too, only, more severe, that he doesn't even think I'll get it to work by wiring it back together, let alone to change anything on it.

I dunno... don't want to turn this into a build thread, but, just thought this is still interesting discussion for anyone who'd consider using an AC forklift motor... to.. not do that


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I dunno... don't want to turn this into a build thread, but, just thought this is still interesting discussion for anyone who'd consider using an AC forklift motor... to.. not do that


Well, don't expect the forklift's controller to be useful (they're not for DC motors, either, because they're 48 V controllers and the DIY EV will use higher voltage). To me, that means... don't use the AC motor unless you know of a controller which will work (out of the box or with tuning) for that particular motor.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi matt
Forklift motors run at low speed - my motor ran at about 1500 rpm in the forklift

The motor will be good for a LOT more - especially an AC one without the com
But the controller will be designed for that speed ad unlike a series DC motor it will need more than just a few extra volts to fix that


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> To me, that means... don't use the AC motor unless you know of a controller which will work (out of the box or with tuning) for that particular motor.


I don't understand what the variables are that need to be so precisely tweaked for a particular motor. As in, I think I understand what an AC controller does, but I don't see why the same waveform wouldn't work just about identically for any random 3ph motor you give it.

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying I don't understand what exactly is going on that requires that or what happens when you hook up the wrong controller. What is the "wrong" part of it that makes it not work?

...

Probably last nail in the coffin for the controller as-is... I got a more precise answer from InMotion on the motor. They software and such does exist, they do have it, it's not that it's lost in the company shuffle, antiquated, or that I'm asking the wrong company and should be asking the forklift company for example. The issue is that I am not allowed to have access to it. 

It's only available under an atrociously expensive license ($10,000+), for industrial high-quantity buyers. Also there's hardware security ($1000 dongle) to program them, that even their industrial buyers complain about. They're implementing a "low volume" and more affordable license for 30-50 production run numbers, but obviously that's out of my spec still.

InMotion sets up their framework, and then only shares it under that license. Then the industrial users spend time writing their own firmware on their own, which InMotion does not have access to. The point being, multiple companies can keep their control systems proprietary without InMotion having to create new controllers.

He did let me know that he heard rumors of their drives being off-license repurposed for foreign military subsystems, so that hacking them is possible, just likely difficult.

But as far as motor goes... correct me if I'm wrong, but the Motor is still just 3 phase motor with, presumably an encoder, and, a DIY AC inverter system (I.E. jhuebner's) is still possible to do?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

You could test the motor by using a 220 VAC VFD with a couple of 220V to 48V control transformers. I did that for my custom wound 8 VAC 12 pole motor. That would not be very practical for an actual EV application, but it might at least allow you to see it spin. Once you get that far, you should be able to use a set of IGBTs (perhaps even those in the proprietary controller) with Johannes' universal controller. It might need some "hacking" to make it work on nominal 48V and it may or may not be possible to overclock it to, say, 150V at 3x speed and power.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

PStechPaul said:


> You could test the motor by using a 220 VAC VFD with a couple of 220V to 48V control transformers.


I don't have a VFD, I suppose I technically have access to 3ph at my old shop but I shouldn't be hotwiring stuff around in there.

I do have the ability to make my own transformers! I even filmed a tutorial series telling people how:



















> Once you get that far, you should be able to use a set of IGBTs (perhaps even those in the proprietary controller) with Johannes' universal controller. It might need some "hacking" to make it work on nominal 48V and it may or may not be possible to overclock it to, say, 150V at 3x speed and power.


I mean, if it turns out I can't get the damned thing working, it's not like I'm going to throw the controllers away . I will surely harvest their organs. Perhaps the IGBTs are rated higher voltage than the rest of the controller is rated. Alternatively, I might use them for my motorbike which, the best controller I have so far shuts off above 45.5V (36v lead acid system).

Anyway, that's project-talk, I should stop cluttering this thread with it if the forklift part is now concluded.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> But as far as motor goes... correct me if I'm wrong, but the Motor is still just 3 phase motor with, presumably an encoder, and, a DIY AC inverter system (I.E. jhuebner's) is still possible to do?


Yes. I don't see why a suitable inverter - one that you can configure appropriately - can't be used to run the motor.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I enjoyed the videos on repurposing MOTs. A bit of humor goes a long way to reduce boredom. I have played with various transformers, including small ferrite units good for a few watts at 100 kHz, to multiple core toroid transformers capable of more than 20,000 amps and 5 volts. But further discussion along those lines belongs in another thread.


More pertinent to fork lift motors might be how to rewind them. The three phase induction type are probably easiest. It might even be the best option for the 48V motor that you have. If you take it apart, you might even find that it is wound with multiple wires in parallel to get the higher current at lower voltage. If the splices are accessible, you might be able to rewire them in series for higher voltage. And if they are wired as a delta configuration, you could boost the rated voltage to 48 * sqrt(3) = 83 VAC. Then, if the motor is rated 1100 RPM at 60 Hz (6 pole), it will spin at 3300 RPM at 180 Hz and 240 VAC.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

PStechPaul said:


> More pertinent to fork lift motors might be how to rewind them.


Well that brings up an interesting question.

What are the limits on overvolting an AC motor, versus, a DC motor?

Like, for DC you're pretty much just worried about not breaking through the insulation at whatever voltage that would occur (higher hundreds?). And you're worried about, obviously what happens to the current when you give it a higher voltage. And you have to advance the brushes. And naturally there's controller issues beyond that.

AC presumably has the same limitations for insulation (a non-issue) and current (something to stay on top of but not a deal-breaker). And again, controller issues.

But, suppose I get a, I dunno, 200v inverter and tune it for this motor, and then supply it with 200v. Is that motor okay supposing that it can handle that kind of current for that duty cycle, or are there other things in play?

...

I'm not sure I understand the impact of higher voltage on an AC motor. The speed is determined largely by the frequency of the 3ph waveform. Voltage is going to make more current flow, stronger magnetic field, but what happens beyond that?

Is it more of a sufficiency thing, that, you can crank the frequency but without enough voltage to create a strong enough magnetic field, the motor will lag too far behind and start to skip cycles? Does it overcurrent and melt with too low of voltage because the farther it gets out of synch, the more current flows?

I think I'm close but not quite putting it all together.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A DC series wound motor has a fixed magnetic field in the stator (which is also the case for shunt wound and PM). The difference between induction machines and DC machines is in the rotor and the means for generating rotational torque. 

A DC machine uses a commutator to provide current and thus a magnetic field in the rotor. When voltage is applied, the current rises according to applied voltage, inductance, and resistance. As speed increases it takes longer to charge the inductance, but this can be compensated for by increasing voltage. There are limitations caused by the action of the mechanical commutation of the brushes, and the radial forces on the rotor windings and commutator bars.

An induction machine has a rotor with a "squirrel cage" made of solid copper or aluminum bars contained within magnetic steel laminations, so it is mechanically stronger and not so much affected by centrifugal forces. But the current in the rotor windings must be induced by a rotating magnetic field in the stator. The amount of current, and hence the magnetic field strength and torque, depends on the current in the stator and the magnetic coupling to the rotor laminations. As speed (and frequency) increases, and when more voltage is applied, the laminations have increased losses due to eddy currents and saturation, so overclocking loses efficiency. 

This may not be a rigorous explanation of the principles involved, but probably close enough for a reasonable approximation. There are mathematical models and simulations, but for DIY purposes and existing motors, it's probably best to conduct experiments.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I'm not sure I understand the impact of higher voltage on an AC motor. The speed is determined largely by the frequency of the 3ph waveform. Voltage is going to make more current flow, stronger magnetic field, but what happens beyond that?


Voltage is required to make current flow, by overcoming resistance (proportional to current) and changing current in the inductance of the winding coils. That means that you need more voltage to turn faster (more rapid change in current each cycle), so if you have more voltage available you can turn the motor faster. You're still limited by other factors, such as the magnetic losses which Paul mentioned.

In practice, high-speed modern EV motors (which are all AC) are controlled to reduce allowed current as speed increases (after the constant-current low-speed zone), so that the product of current and voltage is roughly constant, and the motor output is relatively independent of speed. High voltage is enabling these motors to sustain their output to higher speeds, not to have higher peak output. It seems likely that in a forklift application the system voltage would not be as high as the motor could use, because there is no need for high motor speed.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> so if you have more voltage available you can turn the motor faster.


What would be the practical limit for voltage then? Or, aside from insulation punctures, is there not really a voltage limit, only a current limit which, like all current limits, is thermal?

If this motor could handle 48v and 700 amps in its original configuration, that means that the wire is sized for 700 amps (at 15% or whatnot, according to spec). So, let's say I never feed it more than 700 amps, but I want to feed it, I dunno, 150v. Or 300v. Doable, or, is there a general rule of thumb?



> In practice, high-speed modern EV motors (which are all AC) are controlled to reduce allowed current as speed increases (after the constant-current low-speed zone), so that the product of current and voltage is roughly constant, and the motor output is relatively independent of speed.


I'm trying, but I think I lost you here.

What is changing when this happens? All I can see is that the controller can control the frequency. It can't control current, or, really, voltage, only the waveform of the voltage I suppose, but I don't think that's changing either. It's just frequency, no (through a square-wave pulsetrain that approximates sinusoidal)?

The product of current and voltage is power. Unless the vehicle is accelerating forever, the driver will be backing off the food pedal which will slow the frequency until the power through the motor equals the power required to maintain speed.

Especially "the motor output is relatively independent of speed". I'm not sure what you're meaning by "output", power? How could power be independent of speed?

I still missed in there somewhere how an upper voltage limit would come into play.



> It seems likely that in a forklift application the system voltage would not be as high as the motor could use, because there is no need for high motor speed.


That makes sense.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

About reducing current with increasing voltage and speed...


MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I'm trying, but I think I lost you here.
> 
> What is changing when this happens? All I can see is that the controller can control the frequency. It can't control current, or, really, voltage, only the waveform of the voltage I suppose, but I don't think that's changing either. It's just frequency, no (through a square-wave pulsetrain that approximates sinusoidal)?


You can get into really esoteric descriptions, but essentially the controller *is* determining the voltage applied to the motor, and the frequency. The current which flows is a result of the voltage and the motor's response to that voltage... and the response depends on speed. You can think of the controller as determining current and the voltage is whatever it needs to be to get that current to flow, if you like; it's a matter of viewpoint.

In practice controllers are modulating the width of 'on' pulses, but the motor doesn't care how they are doing it... the controller could be a big variable resistor (and it was in the crude and distant past) and to the motor it's just a variable power source.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The product of current and voltage is power. Unless the vehicle is accelerating forever, the driver will be backing off the food pedal which will slow the frequency until the power through the motor equals the power required to maintain speed.


Don't confuse the available power with how much power is needed to keep the vehicle moving at a constant speed. Just because you can get power, doesn't mean you do. Motor specs - just like engine specs - usually show the maximum available at a given rotational speed, but in use the driver doesn't usually have the pedal all the way to the floor. That means that the controller isn't applying as much voltage as it could (and so the current which flows and the torque and power produced are not the maximums), just as the same conditions an engine's throttle valve wouldn't be all the way open and it wouldn't be using the fuel or producing the torque or power which are the maximums for that engine speed.

When the driver lifts the pedal, the controller provides less voltage and current (less of one and therefore less of the other). Whether it is a synchronous (typically permanent magnet in EVs) or induction motor, the frequency is managed to be whatever it needs to be to match what the motor is doing. By pushing the pedal down, the driver isn't requesting a particular motor speed, the driver is requesting an amount of torque or power.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Especially "the motor output is relatively independent of speed". I'm not sure what you're meaning by "output", power? How could power be independent of speed?.


Yes, I meant output power. All I mean by relatively independent is that at higher speeds, the maximum output power is about the same for every speed - it doesn't depend on the speed. This is true if there is lots of battery voltage available; low-voltage motors (meaning much less than the 300+ volts used in modern EVs) show a narrow speed range of constant power, even in AC designs.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I still missed in there somewhere how an upper voltage limit would come into play.


The voltage is some cases is simply limited by how much voltage is available (the battery voltage). In others, the controller may programmed to limit voltage to whatever is safe for the rest of the system.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There is also the concept of Back EMF, which is the voltage that the magnetic components of the motor produces, and opposes the applied voltage. When the motor is running slow, it does not produce much voltage (acting as a generator), so a high applied voltage will produce a lot of current which translates to torque and acceleration, until the speed increases to a point of equilibrium. 



For DC motors, especially shunt wound, speed can be increased by means of field weakening, by lowering current in the stator. Thus the motor has to turn faster to oppose the voltage applied to the armature. There is also a field weakening portion of the curve for ACIMs, where the applied voltage remains constant but frequency is increased to get higher RPM. Under such conditions, torque decreases as speed increases, so _available_ power remains constant. The actual torque and power are functions of the load, and vary dynamically during running by variations in slip (including negative slip, where the motor is generating voltage greater than applied).


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## ozwolf (Apr 1, 2018)

All of the previous comments are excellent, but has anyone mentioned saturation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)

There is a limit to everything.

Ozwolf


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> You can get into really esoteric descriptions, but essentially the controller *is* determining the voltage applied to the motor, and the frequency. [...] In practice controllers are *modulating the width of 'on' pulses*, but the motor doesn't care how they are doing it... the controller could be a big variable resistor (and it was in the crude and distant past) and to the motor it's just a variable power source.


Ahh. That was the piece I was missing.

I presumed the controller was feeding the same pulse train and only varying the corresponding frequency (AC approximation). I.E. That the proportions of the pulse train would remain the same and only shrink or grow in width depending on frequency.

I do understand modulating the average (or RMS?) voltage to the motor by varying the pulse width, and combining that with a digital representation of an AC waveform. So that the same frequency could have, for example, half the voltage by cutting the on-time of each pulse by half.

But now I'm lost as to why (or when) the controller would modulate the on-time of pulses to control voltage instead of just always modulating frequency? I suppose that would be torque, and you might not always want maximum torque, even for a given frequency demand?



> Don't confuse the available power with how much power is needed to keep the vehicle moving at a constant speed. [...] in use the driver doesn't usually have the pedal all the way to the floor. That means that the controller isn't applying as much voltage as it could


Ahh, makes sense. In my head the only reason that's true for gas engines is because they suck, they can't handle redline, it's harder on them, etc. It's never really occurred to me that, if I had 10x the torque available from an average car I might not want all of it. The crappy cars I drive have squishy enough response that it's almost a natural sweetspot for comfortable acceleration.



> By pushing the pedal down, the driver isn't requesting a particular motor speed, the driver is requesting an amount of torque or power.


I understood this, but, what I missed is that, I presumed the only reason you wouldn't is because of power constraints. I.E. In my head you'd demanding speed, but you can't just instantly become that speed, so the car can only give you as much as it has.



> Yes, I meant output power. All I mean by relatively independent is that at higher speeds, the maximum output power is about the same for every speed - it doesn't depend on the speed.[...] The voltage is some cases is simply limited by how much voltage is available (the battery voltage). In others, the controller may programmed to limit voltage to whatever is safe for the rest of the system.


Ahh, I'd understood these two, just not the way you'd phrased them.

...

I guess my next roadblock is, what is a controller doing between the user input (foot pedal) and motor? I'd presumed before now it was exclusively frequency and only choked back by power limits. But now I see it's both.

How does the controller know when to increase the duty cycle of voltage per pulse, versus accelerate the frequency of the pulse train, based on only a single linear input from the driver?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> But now I'm lost as to why (or when) the controller would modulate the on-time of pulses to control voltage instead of just always modulating frequency? I suppose that would be torque, and you might not always want maximum torque, even for a given frequency demand?


Exactly.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A simple VFD might just use V/f (volts per hertz) to run a three phase ACIM. This would be similar to running it on a fixed frequency sine wave source, and the speed will be determined by the frequency and slip. With no load the motor will run at close to synchronous speed, so about 3600 RPM for a two pole motor at 60 Hz. It will slow down slightly if voltage is reduced, and slip increases. Under full load, the speed will drop to its rated speed, which is typically about 3450 RPM, and slip will be 150 RPM, or 2.5 Hz. At that point, there is a longer distance between the magnetic poles of the rotor and stator, and like a transformer, this gap reduces the inductance and causes more current to flow, resulting in greater torque.

You can increase torque somewhat by increasing the voltage, but you will run into magnetic saturation, which causes higher current flow and greater I^2*R losses. At some point the load will become strong enough to reach maximum (breakaway) torque, and no more power can be transmitted, while current will exceed maximum and will quickly cause overheating and damage. For motors that are driven by full voltage line frequency, a similar situation will occur, and you will draw locked rotor current for start-up torque, until speed reaches normal range and BEMF opposes applied EMF enough to reduce current to safe levels.

It is possible to drive a motor with a distorted waveform, using a VFD to create third harmonics and voltage waveform closer to a square wave. This essentially provides a higher RMS voltage for the same DC bus voltage. This is also achieved using space vector modulation (SVPWM), which is rather complicated, but well documented and easily implemented using modern microcontrollers. Here are some references:

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AP160...M.pdf?fileId=db3a304412b407950112b40a1bf20453


https://www.switchcraft.org/learning/2017/3/15/space-vector-pwm-intro


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> A simple VFD might just use V/f (volts per hertz) to run a three phase ACIM.


I'm not sure what that means.

Does it mean that when the driver steps on the accelerator, the controller is linearly increasing both voltage and frequency through the range of the potbot or whatever you're using?

Would that mean for example that I couldn't tell it to use maximum torque at low speeds? I have to allow the frequency (and thereby, presumably slip, the more it falls behind) to climb? I guess that makes sense. If I want to accelerate faster, I'm also kind of calling for an even larger gap in my desired speed ahead of my current speed at the same time I'm calling for more torque.

It does mean as a side-effect that there'd be a ceiling on the max speed I'd ever be able to demand, no? Unless I tell it, when pedal to the metal, to, I dunno, keep upping frequency indefinitely as long as the current is below max? Hrm. Weird stuff anyways at the top end. I don't intend to race with it, I guess I could design an absolute ceiling around 140km/h.

...

In other forklift news, most forklifts seem to have a power steering motor. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone repurposing one. I don't actually hear much about anyone replacing their power steering on EV builds unless they're sniping one from an Toyota MR2. Any particular reason that's more challenging than I might imagine it is?


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> In other forklift news, most forklifts seem to have a power steering motor. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone repurposing one.


Most PS motors on forklifts are not self contained units like the MR2 pump. They are usually a fairly heavy motor mounted to a small hydraulic gear pump and separate valving on older machines. Some forklifts have an electric motor that's gears directly to the steering. Either way, it's not an easy swap IMO


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> In other forklift news, most forklifts seem to have a power steering motor. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone repurposing one. I don't actually hear much about anyone replacing their power steering on EV builds unless they're sniping one from an Toyota MR2...


The pump motor in a forklift is not for power steering - it drives all of the hydraulics which lift the load (and tilt the mast, etc). It apparently is typically something like half the power of the traction (drive) motor, so it's far too big for steering or other accessories in a car, and too small for one to drive a car.

A dedicated motor for steering, as puddleglum describes, would be useless in a car.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I don't actually hear much about anyone replacing their power steering on EV builds unless they're sniping one from an Toyota MR2. Any particular reason that's more challenging than I might imagine it is?


This has nothing to do with forklifts... but if your car has hydraulic power steering run by the engine, the obvious fix is to replace the engine-driven pump with an electric pump. Some cars come with an electric pump to run the power steering (called electro-hydraulic power assisted steering or EHPAS), so people use electric pumps from those cars; however, most won't run without talking to the other computers in the car (that's the more challenging than expected part), so the few pumps (like the one from an MR2) that are easy to just connect to power and go are preferred.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

On the older DC system fork trucks, typical was a traction motor with one hour rating (~10kW), a lift pump motor with low percentage on-time duty cycle rating (~20 sec on/80 sec off) (~15kW) and a smaller power steering/auxiliary continuous rated motor for hydraulic steering, tilt, side shift, extend, etc. (~0.5kW). Typical sizes might be 9-11", 6-8", and 5-6" diameters, respectively. Of course these metrics vary depending on the specific type (mission) of truck. Sit-down-rider, stand-up order picker, narrow isle high lift, list goes on.

The aux/steer pump motor isn't well suited for EV cars unless you have high usage aux hyd requirements. Lift pump motors are often about right power wise when derated for one hour and then up-rated for higher voltage. Downside is shaft internal spline and unidirectional.

Regards,

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> The pump motor in a forklift is not for power steering - it drives all of the hydraulics which lift the load (and tilt the mast, etc).


No, not that one. There's a third one.

On the 1969 york I took apart the steering assist was chain drive. Sprocket right on the steering stem.

On this Hyster it's, oh, probably 5-6" as Major describes, though I couldn't see what was on the bottom side, or any of the steering guts.



> most won't run without talking to the other computers in the car (that's the more challenging than expected part), so the few pumps (like the one from an MR2) that are easy to just connect to power and go are preferred.


I think I threw out the little (4.5" maybe?) hydraulic pump from the power pallet jack I took apart. A shame, that might've been more around the right size.


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## 74Vega (Sep 22, 2018)

Hey Guys,

My name is Chris and I've been lurking for a bit and decided to start my project in the near future. Right now I'm trying to find an affordable motor that can make decent torque and hit highway speeds. I found a good price on this motor, but the guy selling it had no info on it. I did some research and found out that it was Yale brand. They didn't have it listed in their part numbers though. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and the car I'm converting is a 1974 Chevy Vega (2100lbs stock).https://www.ebay.com/itm/REBUILT-FORKLIFT-WARFIELD-ELECTRIC-DC-MOTOR-CM16/401576542492?hash=item5d7fd3c11c


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 74 Vega

That motor is 7.5 inches in diameter and 65 lbs - you need something at least 9 inches in diameter and about 130 lbs 

It's just a wee bit small for use in a car


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## 74Vega (Sep 22, 2018)

Duncan,
Thank you so much for the reply! Guess I'll keep searching. Nice to meet you!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Chris

I have not seen much in the way of decent motors on e-bay

IMHO the way to do this is
Look up the local forklift repair people - get a pocket full of bills - $200?? and maybe a 12 pack of beer

Visit them - the phone or email won't work

Forklifts die because the batteries are dead - or the controllers - the remains go for scrap metal money

You want a motor - 9 inch or 11 inch - and are willing to swap beer or cash for it

If they haven't got any ask where the old forklifts go - 
Here there is a nice old guy called Graham who takes them all away - he charges $200 for an 11 inch motor - take a trailer and a friend to help - an 11 inch motor is about 240 lbs in weight

The weight is why you won't get any joy with E-Bay - shipping is simply too expensive


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## 74Vega (Sep 22, 2018)

I appreciate the advice, Duncan. I'll try that. I also found a complete kit for a beetle which is a little heavier than my car. Wonder if it would work. It comes with pretty much everything. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/200369951280


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

You would be buying things which are useless to your build, like the motor adapter. 2200 is roughly what I paid for my motor and hub brand new in wooden box on my porch so YMMV.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

74Vega said:


> I appreciate the advice, Duncan. I'll try that. I also found a complete kit for a beetle which is a little heavier than my car. Wonder if it would work. It comes with pretty much everything. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/200369951280


NO! Don't do it. Kelly controller and PM motor. Bad, bad choice for any EV bigger than slow go-kart or bike.

major


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

74Vega said:


> I also found a complete kit for a beetle which is a little heavier than my car. Wonder if it would work. It comes with pretty much everything. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/200369951280


In addition to the other concerns, the image showing a motor installed in a Beetle does not show the same motor as supplied in this kit, so it is fraudulent to at least some extent. It is entirely possible that the supplier has never installed a kit in a car. The detailed description on their website suggests that the supplier either has no idea what they are doing, or is simply lying when it is convenient to do so.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

They list the peak power of that motor as 23 kW. The peak power of a VW 1.7l in the 60's-70's was 60 kW, and it's a slug. Erm, a beetle. Whatever.

I know they're not the quite same, but anything with that motor is going to be really awful to drive. That auction should be reported, imho.


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## 74Vega (Sep 22, 2018)

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I'm still searching for a suitable motor. I might just have to suck it up and buy a Warp9. I'm doing some research on using 38120HP 3.7V Cells also. They seem light and affordable and would be easy to rig into series.


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## 74Vega (Sep 22, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> I have not seen much in the way of decent motors on e-bay
> 
> ...


 No luck on the repair shop route... There's only one shop in my area and they don't sell spares. I found this motor https://www.electriccarpartscompany...50A-DC-br-190-LB--EV-10-inch-Motor_p_232.html and it seems to fit the bill. My goal is a decently zippy car that gets ~40 mile range. I was considering making my own battery with 38120s Headway Cells. From what I've researched, I would need about 10 batteries wired in parallel with 45 cells wired in series each to achieve this goal. Does that sound right? If so, that's about $7500 in batteries. Would it be better to go with 12v lawn mower batteries? Sorry for all of the questions, I just can't seem to find exact numbers for power/range of batteries.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I have a sort of forklift question... Field Weakening.

My forklift had a field weakening resistor that toggled into circuit after the max-speed toggle switch hit (end of the potbox rotation).

I've tried reading up on these on and off in the last year, and I kinda get it but I don't have a good grasp of it. Something about it allowing faster speed. But I can't grasp why and what the tradeoff is when it's in circuit. I presume it's gotta be less torque for more speed.

I'm seeing that it must drop the current through the field by giving an alternate path for current to flow. But since the field and armature magnetics push/pull against each other, I don't get how that wouldn't make the whole motor weaker right away. The Back EMF would shrink, from whatever portion of the Back EMF comes from the current through the field (and however smaller it is), so the voltage across the motor would increase and cause more current to flow, except that you already made half the magnetic circuit weaker. Seems like it should be a wash.

Unless, because it's a resistor in parallel, it doesn't affect the current through other parallel paths (the field), but if that's true then it's not actually "weakening" the field and the Back-EMF shouldn't change.

There's a conceptual piece I'm missing.

Pictures for anyone curious:










Field weakening resistor is the size of a piece of toast there.









(not using that speed controller, but using a more modern Curtis 36v speed controller).

Also, I don't see anyone ever using it or talking about it, so I'm wondering if it's just antiquated and something else took its place.

The context I'm curious about is on my motorbike, which will probably only use a 36v controller (45v max). Functional Artist built a similar bike to 48v, and he's maxing out at far to slow a speed for what I was hoping. So I'm wondering if I throw this field weakening resistor into circuit same as it was, what that might do speed wise (10%? 25%? 50%?) and if it might allow a higher speed, roughly how much, and roughly how much power it would waste to do that.

I can't really do a practical test for it until I build my battery pack, and if I can't go fast enough I'll have to use a different controller that can handle higher voltage. And I'll need a higher voltage batter, and thus don't want to tear apart 1000 cells in the battery to rewire them. So I'm trying to estimate possible performance increase without being able to test it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Field weakening the series wound motor.

See: https://www.electrical4u.com/speed-control-of-dc-motor/ 

Yes, it is a valid method to get maybe 10-20% higher speed in an EV depending on a number of factors. But it must be carefully controlled and only used in 1-A, bypass. Both 1-A and FW require large contactors. Also the load characteristics of the EV car vs fork truck at operational speed negate the effectiveness of this type of FW. It can also complicate commutation on advanced motors.

Unless you have a dynamometer, testing and tuning at full load becomes hazardous for equipment and body.

Regards,

major


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> My forklift had a field weakening resistor that toggled into circuit
> ...
> I'm seeing that it must drop the current through the field by giving an alternate path for current to flow.
> ...
> Unless, because it's a resistor in parallel, it doesn't affect the current through other parallel paths (the field)


I'm not familiar with this configuration for series motors; however, placing a resistor in parallel with the field winding certainly will affect the field current. The field winding and this resistor (when connected) are in parallel with the rotor windings, so rotor winding current will now be split between the field winding and the resistor, instead of the field getting the full rotor current.

The total impedance of the motor will be lowered by the addition of this resistor, so for the same applied voltage the motor current (and thus the total of field and resistor current) will be increased. The portion of applied voltage which is across the field will be lower (due to the lower impedance of the winding and resistor set), so the portion across the rotor is higher.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> My forklift had a field weakening resistor that toggled into circuit after the max-speed toggle switch hit (end of the potbox rotation).


Like a wide-open-throttle (WOT) switch on an engine, to do something like turning on nitrous oxide injection


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Found this thread on another forum. Figured some guys here would enjoy a read.

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/field-weakening-control.115577/

Drag racers doing field weakening around 2000 amps. Not the guy in thread, but another he knows mentions flicking on progressive field weakening resistors down the track, squealing the tires each time one toggles on.

Probably not something healthy for a motorbike approaching highway speeds, though, I suppose it depends on how much you want to weaken the field.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I don't know exactly what was being done for field weakening, but it seemed to be accomplished with shunt resistors (or MOSFETs) to bypass some of the armature current of the series wound motor. Since the field has very low resistance (probably less than 100 milliohms), it would be hard to use parallel resistance to do that. Field weakening is usually done with shunt wound or sepex motors, where the field can be controlled with relatively low current and higher voltage.


A magnetic field does not require any power, which is why superconducting electromagnets as well as permanent magnets can be used for the field. In practical wound field motors, there will be some resistance, and thus power dissipation according to the square of current, but it might be only a couple hundred watts for a typical 20 kW EV motor. If you have access to the field of a series wound motor, you might be able to use a buck converter that can provide high current efficiently into a low resistance motor field.


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## JSJFIN (Oct 10, 2017)

What do you guys think is this suitable motor for conversion (heavy 4x4 4500lbs old mercedes G).

Diameter: 24.5cm 9.65inches
Length: 36cm 14.17inches

72V 160A 1800rpm

I was planing to use it with manual gearbox and nissan leaf batterypack modified to 24+24modules so voltage is around 180V is that ok for this motor? And sould i advance brushes?


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## Sparconl (Apr 11, 2016)

Hi guy's,

I'm asking for advice, i can get Still R07-25 electric tow tug.
This beast is capable of towing 25.000kg and is fitted with a 20kW AC motor and 80v batterypack with a top speed of 25km/h. 

Being my first EV build i'd like to source all drive parts from this thing and use motor-controller-display ect for my first build. The car will be an bmw e30 (aprox. 900kg) and the idea is to couple the motor to the transmission of the bmw. I can 3d design my own adapterplate and get it cnc'd. 

Most difficult i think will be to reuse the 80v batterypack due to its size.
i've found a nice datasheet which is in the attachment.

Is this a good option or better to source other parts? 
The wish is a ev with 100km/h topspeed and 25km range (50 preferred)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JSJFIN said:


> What do you guys think is this suitable motor for conversion (heavy 4x4 4500lbs old mercedes G).
> 
> Diameter: 24.5cm 9.65inches
> Length: 36cm 14.17inches
> ...


Hi,

Sorry. Don't recall seeing your post until now. That's a nice looking motor. It has interpoles so do NOT adjust brush position. It should be ok for 2x voltage. 180? But then you controller will reduce voltage to motor. So I'd go for it.

Regards,

major


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## Emyr (Oct 27, 2016)

That PDF doesn't specify the battery chemistry, but 80V * 460 Ah = 37kWh = 132.5MJ, and at 1210kg, that's 0.11MJ/kg, so probably FLA.

I've never seen 37kWh of lead-acid batteries in a single installation, but you won't be able to use 1.2t of battery in a BMW E30. Specs for the E30 325 are kerb weight 1200kg, mgw 1660kg.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Sparconl said:


> The car will be an bmw e30 (aprox. 900kg)...





Emyr said:


> ... Specs for the E30 325 are kerb weight 1200kg, mgw 1660kg.


The weight of a car depends on the engine (there were many choices in an E30), but for this car to be as light as 900 kg, that would need to be without an engine at all. So you could realistically assume 900 kg, plus the motor, controller, wiring and controls, and battery... plus the weight of the people and cargo in the car. The MGW value is the maximum gross weight, or what the car plus contents can weigh without exceeding the limits of the vehicle's structure and chassis components.

Time to do a weight budget, listing all of the parts (including the car stripped of engine) and their weights. Discussion of that should go in a separate build thread, since this one is supposed to be just about motors from forklifts (or tugs, in this case). Here, perhaps someone can provide a guess at the motor weight?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Sparconl said:


> Hi guy's,
> 
> I'm asking for advice, i can get Still R07-25 electric tow tug.
> This beast is capable of towing 25.000kg and is fitted with a 20kW AC motor and 80v batterypack with a top speed of 25km/h.
> ...


Hi
The problem is going to be the motor speed - I could be wrong but I suspect that the motor will turn at about 1500 rpm - good for 50 kph in your BMW

With a DC motor we fix that by increasing the voltage - with your AC motor it is not as simple 

I don't know of anybody who has used an AC motor of this type


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

Hi,

Would anyone know what kind of drive motor is inside this forklift? The interweb is not very helpful (except the fact that it's not AC). 
The motor is still on the truck and I'll have to drive & take it out myself, so I'm trying to avoid finding out it's not series wound on the spot.

Regards,
Bogdan


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

BogdanT said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would anyone know what kind of drive motor is inside this forklift? The interweb is not very helpful (except the fact that it's not AC).
> The motor is still on the truck and I'll have to drive & take it out myself, so I'm trying to avoid finding out it's not series wound on the spot.
> ...


This document is about an AC-version...might be your (older?) model is indeed DC:
https://www.forkliftcenter.com/forklifts/files/1080-HysterJ2-3936-t1k.00-3.20XM_ACX_ENG.pdf

18kW drive motor (continuous)

You might want to check if the drive motor is not part of the complete front axle, this might make it difficult to use in other configurations.


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

boekel said:


> This document is about an AC-version...might be your (older?) model is indeed DC:
> https://www.forkliftcenter.com/forklifts/files/1080-HysterJ2-3936-t1k.00-3.20XM_ACX_ENG.pdf
> 
> 18kW drive motor (continuous)
> ...


Yes, this one is older (non ACX). It's single motor and online docs say it's 17kW, but nothing else. Only thing the guy could tell me is that the drive motor is bolted onto the diff via a plate, so it's a good sign that it can be reused.


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

Looks like this lead is a dead-end . The guy pulled the drive motor off the Hyster and it looks to be a SepEx.

Going back to search-mode. If anyone has a view on using the forklift controller + sepex motor, please share your thoughts (the donor car will be around 800Kg including the batteries)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BogdanT said:


> If anyone has a view on using the forklift controller + sepex motor, please share your thoughts (the donor car will be around 800Kg including the batteries)


A SepEx motor has an advantage because it can regenerate. I assume that you want a series motor for the availability of suitable controllers, which makes sense because the controller in the forklift will presumably not be able to the handle higher voltage and current that you will want to use to get adequate power.


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

brian_ said:


> A SepEx motor has an advantage because it can regenerate.


Yes, indeed.



brian_ said:


> I assume that you want a series motor for the availability of suitable controllers, which makes sense because the controller in the forklift will presumably not be able to the handle higher voltage and current that you will want to use to get adequate power.


Mainly yes, I'm looking for a series DC as this is my first shot at a conversion and I'm a bit scared of going into major unknowns (couldn't find datasheet or any other info on that particular motor).

My major worry would be speed. I would need around 3000-3500 rpm max, but I'm not really clear on how the load shift would impact the sepex motor speed if I were to use the forklift controller (truck weighs 11000 lbs, my conversion would be 1800 lbs - both values including batteries).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BogdanT said:


> My major worry would be speed. I would need around 3000-3500 rpm max, but I'm not really clear on how the load shift would impact the sepex motor speed if I were to use the forklift controller (truck weighs 11000 lbs, my conversion would be 1800 lbs - both values including batteries).


Speed can be addressed by gearing. A bigger issue is that in the forklift the motor is rated for 72 to 80 volts and 235 amps, corresponding to 17 kW of output. That's probably typical for a forklift of the size that people salvage motors from, but it's not enough power for acceptable performance in a car... so everyone runs them harder (higher voltage and current), which the forklift's controller probably can't handle.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BogdanT said:


> ...
> My major worry would be speed. I would need around 3000-3500 rpm max, but I'm not really clear on how the load shift would impact the sepex motor speed if I were to use the forklift controller (truck weighs 11000 lbs, my conversion would be 1800 lbs - both values including batteries).


I kind of doubt it is SepEx. Possible, but I've never seen one of that type and size. Easy to tell if you can get a resistance measurement between the field terminals.

Don't understand your "load shift" concern.

major


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

Hi major,

Thanks for chiming in! Your doubt actually gives some hope 


major said:


> I kind of doubt it is SepEx. Possible, but I've never seen one of that type and size. Easy to tell if you can get a resistance measurement between the field terminals.


From the document where I got the info, I see the previous version of the same forklift had an 80V 14kW motor which is referred to as 'SERIES'. Both motors are exactly the same shape and size, but the 'series' one has all 4 terminals in a square formation, and the one in the photos has one terminal shifted to the other end of the motor. (in the photos I can see A1 and F2 markings, need to get pics of the others as well). Not looking good.

Not sure if the guy has access to a multimeter, I'll ask. Would it be possible to test by connecting A1/F1/B+ and A2/F2/B-? 


major said:


> Don't understand your "load shift" concern.


It's not a concern, just an unknown - eg: what will happen if the motor is sepex and run without any load using the truck controller&battery pack? Will it go beyond the rated speed?

Regards,
Bogdan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BogdanT said:


> Hi major,
> 
> Thanks for chiming in! Your doubt actually gives some hope
> 
> ...


Might be a new one on me. SepEx should not have overspeed problem like series motors. Should run fine no load.

Connection of SepEx field directly to battery... Suggest 12V, or higher voltage for just short time.

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I finally had time (and tools) to go back and get the AC motor.

Here it is next to a normal water bottle:










11" x 16" and... much heavier than I expected, not sure how heavy. I used to be able to just bend over and pick up 200lbs easy. I'm not as strong as I used to be, and maybe grip was an issue, but I had to build a 2-stage ramp to roll it into the vehicle. (2 sheets of OSB to a milk crate, swap OSB, roll up to bumper).

13kw continuous. 18.5kw 1 hour. 37kw 15%. All with no air cooling.


And, here's where it came out of, a single speed gearbox that leads to the differential on the left:











Now, obviously I would like to get the mated coupler out of there.

I took off those 4 bolts. All it held on was a little flange and a gasket.

I clamped onto the female spline shaft thing and pulled and wiggled, but all that came off was the race for the tapered roller bearing. The shaft is loose-ish, but won't come out.

Ideas/Suggestions? Pull the whole gearbox off the diff and figure it out later?

It's actually horribly difficult to get access to. All kinds of framework is welded in place and there's another lift parked adjacent to it so I can't get around it from the other side either.

On that note, should I grab the gearbox with intent on actually using it too?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matt, 

Depends what your intent (use) is. Forklift gearbox ratio likely not what you want. Some folks have luck using trantorque bushing (coupling) directly over the male spline. 

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> Depends what your intent (use) is.


EV, highway speed, haven't picked a donor yet.



> Forklift gearbox ratio likely not what you want.


I know that OEM EVs often have a single stage fixed gearbox, I presume to slow things down, so that they can spin the motor faster. I don't know if that's the same ballpark as what a forklift uses for its reduction gear though.



> Some folks have luck using trantorque bushing (coupling) directly over the male spline.


Never heard of that, interesting.

Someone else suggested going to tractor supply places, as you'll find splines of all manner of sizes. Or I can just machine one myself if I have to. But, ideally I'd like to just use the one that's already there.

Got all of the bolts that hold the gearbox to the diff off last night, before arriving at a ~30mm bolt inside a cavity that holds the whole diff up and to the frame. Don't have a socket big enough and couldn't fit a wrench. Will have to see if the owner will lend me his tools for 5 minutes to get the last of it off.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> EV, highway speed, haven't picked a donor yet.
> ...
> I know that OEM EVs often have a single stage fixed gearbox, I presume to slow things down, so that they can spin the motor faster. I don't know if that's the same ballpark as what a forklift uses for its reduction gear though.


While you would likely be willing to run a forklift motor at higher speed in the car than it ran in the forklift, the road speed is much higher, so the overall gear reduction ratio of the forklift would probably be to high (too much reduction) to work in a car.

And yes, all common production EVs use a single-ratio reduction gearbox. They also use high-voltage AC motors which can produce their full rated power over a broad range of speeds (from a quarter to a third of peak speed, up to nearly peak speed). That's not what you're getting from an old forklift.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> That's not what you're getting from an old forklift.


Okay... what am I getting from an old (2005) forklift? Presumably a motor with more poles on it than an OEM EV ACIM?

I can't find the operating frequency of the controller, so, I'm somewhat blind there.

The motor is rated for 1000 RPM. http://en.evs-inmotion.com/products/tsptsw/ <-- 180/6-200

I'm not sure what that rating implies. It's surely not for mechanical construction. Even a DC motor that size with commutator bars wouldn't fly apart anywhere near that speed. My guess is it's probably for use in its intended purpose with their branded controller that delivers its given frequency and expected voltage.

Is the reverse going to be a problem? Am I going to need a gearbox to speed the thing up to a speed that can handle highway speed?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd say the 1430 RPM models are 4-pole at 50 Hz and the 970 RPM models are 6-pole at 50 Hz.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> I'd say the 1430 RPM models are 4-pole at 50 Hz and the 970 RPM models are 6-pole at 50 Hz.


Well that seems obvious now, as the model numbers are:

(note the 4):
112/4-165
112/4-195

(note the 6):
180/6-200
180/6-250
180/6-360

But the Leaf appears to use a 4-pole motor, so, I don't understand how my requirements are different than theirs.

Missing a piece of the puzzle.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Frequency.....


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> And yes, all common production EVs use a single-ratio reduction gearbox. They also use high-voltage AC motors which can produce their full rated power over a broad range of speeds (from a quarter to a third of peak speed, up to nearly peak speed). That's not what you're getting from an old forklift.





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Okay... what am I getting from an old (2005) forklift? Presumably a motor with more poles on it than an OEM EV ACIM?
> 
> I can't find the operating frequency of the controller, so, I'm somewhat blind there.
> 
> ...


Yes, the rotational speed corresponds to a power supply frequency, and that speed wouldn't be a problem even with a commutator and brushes.

I forgot that you're looking at an AC forklift motor, so I should have said that you're not getting a motor which you know can use hundreds of volts to enable 8,000 (or higher) rpm operation at full power, or which you know can handle the frequency needed for those speeds.

The motor is rated for a specific rotational speed at which it can produce the rated power. Unfortunately, there is no indication of how much faster than that it can turn while working reliably and putting out the same (or close to the same) power. It probably produces about the same torque from nearly zero up to that 1000 rpm (at a constant current), but we don't know if it could put out more torque briefly, or even continuously. How much faster it can go will depend on supply voltage, but we don't know how much voltage it can handle. All we really know is that because it doesn't have a commutator, the speed isn't limited by a commutator.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Is the reverse going to be a problem?


I can't imagine why reverse would be an issue.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Am I going to need a gearbox to speed the thing up to a speed that can handle highway speed?


Not likely. Although 1000 rpm is the rated speed, the maximum speed should be substantially higher, so reduction gearing (not step-up or overdrive gearing) between the motor and the axle would still be needed.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> Frequency.....


No, I knew that.

Rotational speed of an (unloaded) ACIM depends on 2 things: poles and frequency.

I was asking if I should use a reduction gearbox like the OEM EVs use, and Brian said "That's not what you're getting from an old forklift" so I was wondering what else might be different to make this motor not capable of what an OEM EV motor can do, and to not have the same requirement (benefit?) of reduction gearing.

But Brian missed that I was talking about an AC motor. So, that clears most of that up.



Brian said:


> I should have said that you're not getting a motor which you know can use hundreds of volts to enable 8,000 (or higher) rpm operation at full power, or which you know can handle the frequency needed for those speeds.


How might an OEM ACIM EV differ from what I've got here, if (supposing) they're the same pole-count (they're not) and size (pretty close)?

How are those ACIMs built differently than this one?



> I can't imagine why reverse would be an issue.


Ahem, "the reverse", as in "the opposite situation", not "backing up the vehicle". As in, since my rotational speed is so low, would I actually need to increase the speed of rotation with a gearbox, rather than reduce it 



> Although 1000 rpm is the rated speed, the maximum speed should be substantially higher, so reduction gearing (not step-up or overdrive gearing) between the motor and the axle would still be needed.


So while you're not sure that this AC forklift motor can handle 8000 rpm and (if Major's hunch is correct) ~400 hz required to spin it up near that fast... more typical 2000-3000 rpm is probably a reasonable assumption to be safe?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Likely a cast Al cage rotor. Capable of 10-12,000 RPM easy. But need to watch balance and fan blades(if so equipped).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Ahem, "the reverse", as in "the opposite situation", not "backing up the vehicle".






MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> As in, since my rotational speed is so low, would I actually need to increase the speed of rotation with a gearbox, rather than reduce it
> 
> So while you're not sure that this AC forklift motor can handle 8000 rpm and (if Major's hunch is correct) ~400 hz required to spin it up near that fast... more typical 2000-3000 rpm is probably a reasonable assumption to be safe?


That's roughly what I was thinking. It would be nice if it could handle faster (and so be able to use more gear reduction and get more torque to the axle), but the upper speed limits both mechanically and electromagnetically are unknown.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

BogdanT said:


> Yes, indeed.
> 
> 
> Mainly yes, I'm looking for a series DC as this is my first shot at a conversion and I'm a bit scared of going into major unknowns (couldn't find datasheet or any other info on that particular motor).
> ...


Can you find out what controller is in the forklift? In a light car like you are describing, you might be able to get acceptable ( but probably not great) performance with the forklift motor/controller combo from the forklift if you gear it properly. You have the advantage of it being a 80v system instead of the typical 36-48v systems we usually see. The rated motor output is probably a fair bit lower than max output from the controller. There may be options to adjust field weakening to speed it up as well. You still have a few unknown variables that could make a big difference in the feasibility of using the package.


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

Minor update on my DC series searching. Still nothing new on that GE motor, but I have another lead on a Hitachi.

This one is also 300miles away, so I'd like to ask if anyone knows if it's series wound. I am assuming yes, as I've seen others here using the 10kW model MT4100 (including Duncan). Size is 11" by 15.5".


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

major said:


> Might be a new one on me.


So I have confirmation that the GE 8500108 is definitely SEPEX (thin wire coils). 

And if I wasn't "lucky" enough ... I found another Hyster GE motor (8501480) 48V 8.7kW which is again ... SEPEX. Listing both motors and tags below for reference.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think a SEPEX DC motor may be even better than a series wound design. You just apply a fixed voltage to the field, and that will determine the K factor of RPM/volt. A higher field voltage will provide more torque but a lower speed. You can run the armature at a variable PWM that will determine the speed at a range of loads and will just reach a certain maximum RPM without overspeeding as can happen with a series wound motor. Also, a SEPEX can be reversed by switching the relatively low current field windings, and it can provide regeneration. I think you can use an ordinary high power PWM controller for the armature, and use another much smaller controller to provide the field voltage, which might be done with fixed increments that will act almost like shifting gears.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

BogdanT said:


> Minor update on my DC series searching. Still nothing new on that GE motor, but I have another lead on a Hitachi.
> 
> This one is also 300miles away, so I'd like to ask if anyone knows if it's series wound. I am assuming yes, as I've seen others here using the 10kW model MT4100 (including Duncan). Size is 11" by 15.5".


I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is series wound. The MT4100 is 10kw series. The MT475 is 7.5kw series. Makes sense that the MT490 is as well, but I don't have a spec sheet on it. 
Biggest problem with using a Sepex motor is finding a controller to work with it. Still might be worth trying to find specs on the controller out of the 80v forklift.


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## BogdanT (Sep 15, 2018)

puddleglum said:


> I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is series wound.


Yes, and probably a really good overvolt candidate. Unfortunately the guy was asking 500EUR used so I took the obvious route of deleting his phone number .

Upside is I found a Kostov K9 - new at a decent price; working on sorting out the shipping 

Bogdan


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

Is anyone familiar with the idea of rewiring a lift motor? If you get hold of an old lift motor with a short in the armature windings, could rewiring not solve three problems?
1) Cost - you get the non-working motor for scrap value.
2) if you put in new bearings & brushes and clean it up, you'll have it refurbished like new.

3) - and this is the main point of my question - Couldn't you rewire it with thicker wire to handle a heavier current? To be comfortable in the 600A range (1 hour rating), instead of the usual 200-300A? Then, there'll be no need to advance the brushes. However, this will also mean fewer windings. Will this mean greater torque, but lower revs?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DrGee said:


> Is anyone familiar with the idea of rewiring a lift motor? If you get hold of an old lift motor with a short in the armature windings, could rewiring not solve three problems?
> 1) Cost - you get the non-working motor for scrap value.
> 2) if you put in new bearings & brushes and clean it up, you'll have it refurbished like new.
> 
> 3) - and this is the main point of my question - Couldn't you rewire it with thicker wire to handle a heavier current? To be comfortable in the 600A range (1 hour rating), instead of the usual 200-300A? Then, there'll be no need to advance the brushes. However, this will also mean fewer windings. Will this mean greater torque, but lower revs?


Hi Dr.G,

I guess it is possible, but not easy. Speaking of series wound motor, halving the field turns and doubling the effective wire size: not too tough especially if you can reconnect in parallel. The armature is the bitch. Aside from a new commutator with half the segments and new laminations with half as many but double size slots, maybe you could change to a duplex winding. 

I doubt any motor shop is willing to do this. So if you attempt it, better study up. For instance, fewer windings do not mean greater torque but lower revs. It's the opposite.

Just came to mind.... Doubling current means larger brushes and comm. Not cheap.

Regards,

major


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

Thanks Major,
I think I'll stick to advancing the brushes in the plan to overvolt. 'probably need a fan to aid cooling as has been previously suggested..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

General motor/generator question, what's the best way to treat rusted pole shoes? I'm rebuilding a 6V generator which I think came from a mid 1940's Ford flathead V8 and one of the pole shoes had some rust on it which I wire brushed/chipped off then soaked in Vapo-Rust rust remover. Seems as if it originally had some black treatment on it to prevent rust, I was thinking of spraying a thin coat of electrical varnish on it. Any reason not to? Would something else be better?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> General motor/generator question, what's the best way to treat rusted pole shoes? I'm rebuilding a 6V generator which I think came from a mid 1940's Ford flathead V8 and one of the pole shoes had some rust on it which I wire brushed/chipped off then soaked in Vapo-Rust rust remover. Seems as if it originally had some black treatment on it to prevent rust, I was thinking of spraying a thin coat of electrical varnish on it. Any reason not to? Would something else be better?


Use whatever you want but:

No silicone if motor is enclosed.
Nothing between pole shoe and frame. Just metal to metal. Tight as possible. Not even thin coat of paint. 
Varnish or paint is ok on other surfaces of pole shoe as long as it doesn't rub the armature.
Glyptol red insulating motor varnish is good stuff. 
After coating, bake to cure.
Material should be good for temperature of insulation class. Class F = 155°C, H = 180°C, 200°C is better.
Good luck.
major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks, helpful as always.


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

update on a prior post here (page 234)



Reid_in_QC said:


> Just a quick post to share pics of the moderately destroyed brush holder and thankfully salvageable commutator on my 11" Daewoo drive motor.
> 
> {snip}


I finally found the time and motivation to get back to work on the Daewoo lift motor. Pulled the motor from the lift, all 88kg of it, and rebuilt with new bearings, brush holder, brushes. I seem to have succeeded in turning the comm myself (as part of my ongoing effort to justify having bought a lathe) and the rebuilt motor seems to test convincingly.

video of rebuild, comm turning and bench test here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewqGrlf7Nr8

In the lathe pics the steady rest has been removed for clarity but it was used while turning.

I put the motor back in the lift without properly running in the brushes/comm but have since read up on in other threads (thanks as always Major and others) and will try to rig something up to run the motor for a few days with the lift up on blocks.

I just wanted to post to say thanks to everyone for the encouragement and sharing of knowledge.

My next thread may just be about troubleshooting a malfunctioning SCR-based controller for the hydraulic pump motor but I'll bug some local forklift techs before I waste your time with that.

Still I'm one step closer to selling our old propane forklift and adding one more EV to our farm's fleet!


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Glad it's coming together for you. What controller does it have?


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

puddleglum said:


> What controller does it have?


It appears to be proprietary Daewoo/Doosan controller using three large SCRs. photos attached here but I'll start a separate thread if I make any progress on testing and figuring out the basics. This is not my area of expertise

~ reid


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## DrZzs (Sep 12, 2018)

I finally found someone semi-local that has used forklift motors to sell. He actually has 10-12 total so if they look good I could get a few if there are others interested. 
This is my first EV Conversion. Does that make me an EVirgin?


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> It appears to be proprietary Daewoo/Doosan controller using three large SCRs. photos attached here but I'll start a separate thread if I make any progress on testing and figuring out the basics. This is not my area of expertise
> 
> ~ reid


Hey, I missed this till now, sorry. I can get you service info and wiring diagrams if you need them. I haven't worked on this system though so I can't give much help.


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

puddleglum said:


> Hey, I missed this till now, sorry. I can get you service info and wiring diagrams if you need them. I haven't worked on this system though so I can't give much help.


Thanks puddleglum. I've got the wiring diagram in good shape on the inside of the controller cover but any service info you can send my way is most welcome.

~ reid


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

Reid_in_QC said:


> Thanks puddleglum. I've got the wiring diagram in good shape on the inside of the controller cover but any service info you can send my way is most welcome.
> 
> ~ reid


PM me your email and I'll send it to you.


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## DrZzs (Sep 12, 2018)

I found a guy that has 6 Hyster e50x forklifts in a junkyard. Before I go out there to pull a motor I'm trying to find some information about what tools I will need and generally what is involved in the disassembly. I'm not getting great results from my googling. 
Anyone here have experience with Hyster e50x series forklifts? 
Thanks


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

DrZzs said:


> I'm trying to find some information about what tools I will need and generally what is involved in the disassembly. I'm not getting great results from my googling. Anyone here have experience with Hyster e50x series forklifts?


Presumably he will have pulled the battery because it's the most valuable thing on the lift. If not, you're not getting anywhere, the battery will block access to everything. The battery is a dishwasher-sized unit under the seat and has to be removed first with a crane.

Next, you're going to have a lot of trouble accessing the lift if it's not put up on secure jackstands or lumber or something. And not car-strenght jackstands, forklifts are 10,000 lbs. Alternatively, you could get him to tip it on its side, which is often how they'll be serviced.

All the power electronics will be in the fanny pack. 4 bolts and a big shield should come off the back and reveal the controllers and such. All the power cables will connect to these, so at the very least you should unbolt and take the power cables with you. If he's not going to charge you, you could nab the controllers too just in case but you probably won't be able to use them. The cables are a bit tricky to push and pull through to the middle of the forklift, but just go one at a time. There's a few metal cover plates but it's pretty obvious how to get them out of the way. 




















The motors are under the front of the interior of the forklift. They bolt under the dividing wall of the "seat", that separates the part you sit on from the part your legs go into (which is separated by another wall before the mast). The seat flips upwards, so, don't worry about crawling in the battery compartment, just pull the lever sideways and then let it hinge forwards and you can stand right over it.










As I recall, the big drive motor is bolted to a fixed gearbox that's bolted to the differential, using a series of 6 or so bolts in places you will hardly be able to see or reach. Careful that you don't disassemble the motor's end plate (taking the motor apart) but are unbolting the motor from the gearbox. The bolts are from the gearbox side.




















There is one additional, massive bolt that holds the motor up to the frame, from above. It's just about inaccessible from any angle, and it's cupped with 1/4" steel plate around it on 3 sides so there's no room to swing a wrench. I think it's something between 30mm and 35mm (my hunch is 32mm?), which is bigger than you'll find in a any standard socket set, so, if you're polite perhaps the shop will let you borrow theirs. You'll need a fairly long (12", maybe more) socket extension, and an impact gun. If not an impact gun, you're in for a ride, maybe 3 foot breaker bar or a snipe over a suitably beefy ratchet. Even then the amount of flex in a breaker bar will have you almost impossible to get any movement on the bolt, since you only have a few inches to swing the breaker (you'll be in the area where the driver's feet go, which is only about a foot deep between the seat and front walls). The bolt will probably all rusted and seized, but heave back and forth and see if you can get it to budge.










When you take off all the bolts, you probably won't see a difference, and won't know that you're done or if you missed a bolt. The gasket and gear will probably hold everything locked tight still. A floor jack underneath the unsupported ass end of the motor, going up and down might be enough to break the seal or show you where the last bolt you missed is. A couple prybars and a steel pipe or bar to hammer on might separate the motor from the gearbox. Left, right, left, right, left, right, see if you can get some movement. Then when you're not ready for it, it'll suddenly drop, crush whatever is under it and maybe crack the frame.










There should be a 300w DC-DC converter you might want to keep under there somewhere too.










The battery connects with an Anderson connector on the right side, it'll be ziptied a dozen times but it's worth grabbing if they'll let you (grab another from another lift if you can, they're ungendered so any two the same size will plug into each other), otherwise that's an expensive connector you'll have to buy.

I think the lifts will be metric but there's usually close enough imperial equivalents. There's maybe 3 sizes of normal bolts on the whole thing.

A normal socket set should suffice except for the monster socket. I don't think you need any deep sockets. Various extensions perhaps. I'd bring a set of wrenches too. Prybars. Impact gun. Hammer. Jack. Scrap 2x4s chunks. Lights. Lots of blue rags (everything will be covered in hydraulic oil and dirt, you won't even see some of the bolts you need to remove and you'll cover everything in slime trying to feel around for them). Screwdrivers, pliers, wire cutters. Standard automotive toolbox stuff. Kneepads and a fold up chair (you'll cramp from so much squatting). Some large sheets of cardboard to lay on and to put the greasy motor on to take home. A couple dollarstore rubbermaids or recycling bins for your garbage and hardware. A couple cheap trays to set your tools on.


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## DrZzs (Sep 12, 2018)

Wow! 
Thanks a ton Matt! I showed your post to my forklift guy and he says the batteries are out and we can tip it on it's side. Looks like I better find some big sockets  
Thanks again!


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## Reid_in_QC (Sep 5, 2017)

This is far less helpful than Matt's amazing response but here are a couple pics of an older Hyster E50XL that I saw when scouting wrecks at a local forklift yard. I was pretty sure it was DC whereas the unit Matt scrapped is definitely AC with Danaher/inMotions motors and controllers. I didn't look into it much as I was really on an early recon mission by I had added "early Hyster e50XL" to my list of possible DC donors with big (11"+) drive motor.

I just thought I'd post the pics because it seems like the E50 moniker may cover quite a swath of Hyster lifts. You'll tell us what you find right? 

~ Reid (in QC)


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Couple other tidbits that came to mind:

- The 1 side you can see the giant bolt from, is from the ass end of the motor looking forward, just under the wall plate. You'll see the head, you can even get a box end wrench on it, maybe, but you'll only be able to rotate it like, 5 degrees.

- The giant bolt might not hold the motor. I recall I was trying to snatch the gearbox too, to get at the matching splined coupler that went on the motor shaft (so I could weld it, adapt it, etc).

- The motor is like, 300+ lbs. I think mine was 350. Take some tiedown straps with you and think of a plan of lowering it. It's hard to grip, big, and slippery, and even if you have the strength, you probably won't have the gripstrength. If it falls on your leg it'll break it. If it falls on your chest it'll kill you. You might want a bar or a 4x4 beam across the compartment to put your lift straps on. Don't risk your life on a single point of failure either, double or triple up and stay out from under it. An engine hoist is ideal if they'll lend you one.

- The controllers use a, I dunno, 100lb slab of aluminum as their heatsink. The plate is trapped inside the ass frame. You can unbolt the back wall (1" steel plate, 400 lbs?) to release it, but I think you have to unbolt the roll (drop?) cage first as they share a common pair of like, 22mm bolts on each side. And the cage is what the forklift is laying on when it's on its side. Anyway, that slab would make an excellent heatsink if you can get to it. It probably even has fins and fans on the top side.

- If you look at Reid's photos, the third one that shows the lettering "Hyster" by the step? The left edge of that, just above, you can see a piece of grey plastic? That's the top edge of the Anderson connector you'll want to steal, it's about the size of a child's shoe, and the Pos and Neg cables of the battery plug into it, and then it runs to the controller so there's probably 8 feet of wire pairs as thick as your thumb if you can chase it. 

- The DC-DC is about the same size as the Anderson connector on the left side of the footwell, bolted to the side panel from the inside, I think. 4 medium-sized cables into that. Around there is a 3rd motor, the power steering motor maybe, vertically mounted.

- If you get stuck and have to come back for day 2, take 10x as many pictures as you think you need, from every possible angle.

- Bring and wear tight-fitting (not garden) gloves. Something with an elastic cuff so the cuff doesn't get caught on everything and block your view. There's lots of places you'll have to heave on a wrench or ratchet to break a bolt free, and you won't be able to stop your hand in time to prevent it from gouging on all the platework.

- If you have a wiggle adapter for your impact or extension, that will come in handy over and over again.


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## DrZzs (Sep 12, 2018)

I did it! 
No way I could have done it without your post Matt. Thanks again!
Tipping it on it's side was key. I didn't have to deal with the big 30mm bolt. This was a Hyster e50xm2. All it took was loosening a dozen 17mm bolts. A couple of them were very hard to reach. A short 17mm wrench did the job though. 
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs-4mVCBoU_/


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

DrZzs said:


> No way I could have done it without your post Matt. Thanks again!


Ahh nonsense. You'd have walked up to it and seen bolts to remove. It's not rocket science. But if it helped, you're welcome.



> Tipping it on it's side was key.


If you'd note, I had to do mine from underneath, in the middle of the night. While wearing a ski-mask... 

Just kidding, I work 7 days a week so, it had to be at night, and my guy didn't have yard space to lay it down.



> I didn't have to deal with the big 30mm bolt. This was a Hyster e50xm2. All it took was loosening a dozen 17mm bolts. A couple of them were very hard to reach. A short 17mm wrench did the job though.


Maybe I was thinking about the gearbox instead then. Glad it worked out for you.

Looks pretty rusted. It spin?

Pull any other treats off the carcass?

Any future bits of advice to share? Anything that was harder than expected or that didn't work until you tried something else?


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## DrZzs (Sep 12, 2018)

I didn't get to snag much else off the forklift. Mostly because my wife and kids were sitting in the van waiting while I pulled the motor. I grabbed some wire, but not much, maybe a few feet. I'm probably going to regret not grabbing the splined piece from the differential. That's probably what I would have needed the 30mm wrench for. I did see the 30mm nut. It would have been hard to get at. A socket won't go over it because it sat so close to the differential housing. 
Maybe one bit of advice would be to open the rear compartment and try to find that Anderson connector and some grab some wires before tipping it. Once we tipped it over, the rear compartment door bent and I couldn't get it open. 
I'd like to go back and get another one when I have a bit more time. We were driving away barely 2hrs after we first arrived. Not much more than an hour spent actually wrenching on the forklift.


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## DrGee (Aug 22, 2018)

I was completely sold on getting a Series wound DC forklift motor and repurposing it for my conversion. However, I'm now considering an adequately sized BLDC as an option.
1) I could save 180lbs in weight.
2) I could save a lot of space 
3) no brushes to replace 
4) I could use regen braking for the 4-6% range extension.
Does anyone know of a local source for BLDC motors? I'll need one that can give me upto 100hp.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jason
Please reply to this with a coherent message - you sound like some sort of spambot


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Obvious spambot


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## Jonisingt35r (Sep 5, 2019)

Ok, my second post very very excited.

Would like to ev a small car, hopefully a smart car if gearbox is suitable, 

My first question is size of the motor? what size should i be looking for, or has someone a small motor that is for sale? Here not interested in breaking land speed record, more interested in miles per kw.

Will be hitting refresh every 5 seconds, and dont think i will get much sleep tonight.

Is there a good build somewhere here i could gain a bit of knowlage from

Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/smart-fortwo-ev-high-power-version-51472.html


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## Jonisingt35r (Sep 5, 2019)

Thank you, 
Just out of interest is there any other small car builds out there which i could gain knowlage 
Or cars that are just easy to do, think the hardest part is mating the motor to gearbox?


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## Jonisingt35r (Sep 5, 2019)

Ok 
Im looking for a small forklift motor if any body has a stash of them, a small one suitable for a small car, hopefully a smart car, hope someone can help me select the right one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Search Youtube for "DIY EV". This is a good basic start, he has other videos as well

https://youtu.be/UnLEy8p9Xu8


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## Jonisingt35r (Sep 5, 2019)

Hello

Im just planning my ev, thinking about the battery first, how any volts do you need to turn a forklift motor? Hopefully no clutch ect.

I plan to use lithium iron chemestry, 3.5 to 4.2v using 18650 batteries, as i have a source of cheep ones, and they are lighter 

So my question is, what voltage am i aiming for ?

Thanks


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
This is my car
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

I first put it on the road with 144v - that was fine
then I changed for a bigger battery but less volts - 130v

BAD idea - that gave me a top speed of 100 kph - superb initial acceleration then poodle along

The back EMF from the motor limited the current at higher rpms 

Today I am using most of a Chevy Volt Battery
My voltage is between 340v (full) and 300v (empty) 

Now it flies!!


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## Jonisingt35r (Sep 5, 2019)

Hello

Im from the uk, early stages of ev want to do a small car, if anybody sees a good forklift motor would they pleaze tell me 

Thank you


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## OR-Carl (Oct 6, 2018)

Ok guys, I have reached the 250th page, and I am going to add to this previous summary that I found 




bgoner said:


> Ok guys I reached 75th page and *SUMMARY is*:
> need motor from big forklift *7-11' *(series mostly)
> big/*long comutator*, big brushes and brush cables
> need the *drive motor* and not the pump motor
> ...



I will add, motors with *female splines* are not easy to couple to your drivetrain, and the consensus among the experts is to not use them. Hence the comment above on the *drive motor* being prefered: it will likely have a male shaft, be variable speed, be reversable from the outside of the case (so that it can be matched to the direction your transmission turns), and be heavier duty (1 hr continuous duty cycle at its rated power - it will handle much more for shorter bursts).



*Regen* is hard to implement with DC motors, and probably not worth the hassle.



Also, the easiest motor type to use is going to be *series wound*, which can be identified by *4 large terminal posts *on the outside of the case, likely marked A1/A2 F1/F2(or S1/S2). A multimeter will read nearly zero resistance across these sets, as they will have very heavy windings. Smaller electrical connectors can be brush-wear-indicators, or temperature probes, not all motors will have them. 





*SEP-EX* or* separately excited* motors are more complicated, but can be used with the right controller (do your homework before going this route). They will have smaller windings for one pair of terminals - so looking at the coils on the inner sides of the case (stators), expect to see copper wires the size of pencil leads. There will be a measurable resistance on these posts, and the terminals may be smaller.


*Shunt wound* will have 3 sets of terminals, 2 with low resistance, and 1 that reads higher like a sep-ex. Maybe not the best choice for a complete beginner.



*Advancing brushes* is done by removing the commutator end of the motor and re-drilling the holes to allow for the new position. You can tell that a motor has neutral timing by checking to see that the brushes line up with the center of the stator coils.



Bring a multimeter to check the resistance of the coils, and that there is not an electrical path from the studs to the case.



Plan on doing a *12 volt test*: bring a 12 volt battery, jumper cables, and a third jumper of some sort. You will need to bridge either of the A terminals to either of the S terminals, and then connect your battery to the remaining studs. Swapping one of the jumpered studs reverses the direction.


If the forklift motor is still attached, have a look at post #2478 - it will give you an idea of what you might be up against. 



Also, I want to give a huge shout-out to the experts that made this thread into the diamond mine that it is (you know who you are ) Hopefully I have not added too much to the overburden!


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

Hey guys, any feel on how one of these might perform on a vw bug conversion?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233477760290

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264613503853

Thanks for the input!!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jefsmk said:


> Hey guys, any feel on how one of these might perform on a vw bug conversion?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233477760290
> 
> ...


First one is a GE, 11 inch diameter (I think). Heavy. Probably overkill for VW bug. Good motor. Looks in good shape. Very likely a straight forward series winding.

Second one is an Allis Chalmers made in Northwood, Oh. I think they stopped making motors there in the 1970/80's. Says class H. Good. Maybe even bigger. 13 inch dia? Appears like 5 or 6 terminals so maybe split series or tapped field. First motor better IMO.

Regards,

major


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

major said:


> jefsmk said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys, any feel on how one of these might perform on a vw bug conversion?
> ...


Thanks so much for this. Would the 11" not perform well being that large on the stock Transaxle? Was thinking of using 14 Leaf modules for like 96 volts with controller TBD. Or should I be looking for a smaller motor here??


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Almost purchased that motor but got another instead (same motor though). That one is a little more rough around the edges than what I wanted to start with. Members on here pointed out the comm has brush wear/signs of arcing. Was going to offer him $150.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> Almost purchased that motor but got another instead (same motor though). That one is a little more rough around the edges than what I wanted to start with. Members on here pointed out the comm has brush wear/signs of arcing. Was going to offer him $150.


You know, I thought that might of been the same unit as your A v B motor thread. The picture you posted, and the comments mentioned that the "braided pigtails appear possibly to be stretched", but if you look at the attached picture here, they certainly don't seem stretched at all. Not sure where the signs of arcing are?


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

I didn’t really notice the pig tails as much, but I had the seller send me a pic of the terminals, and zoomed in on the comm. there is slight pitting/grooves in it. I’m new to conversions. On the DIY fb page a couple of members that are also on here pointed it out. This was my first motor purchase and so was overly picky haha.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

I honestly would have still bought it but he took to long to get back with me about freight, leading me to get a slightly more expensive one. Was still only $500 with freight.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> I didn’t really notice the pig tails as much, but I had the seller send me a pic of the terminals, and zoomed in on the comm. there is slight pitting/grooves in it. I’m new to conversions. On the DIY fb page a couple of members that are also on here pointed it out. This was my first motor purchase and so was overly picky haha.


You happen to have that pic you could send me? [email protected]

My first motor as well, been a lot of reading and research to make a decision here.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Sorry the quality of the pics are bad because I had to screen capture them.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

Got my new old motor in today and ran a quick test with a 12v battery. Fired right up and seemed to run ok. Pretty quite. I did notice a slight vibration on the motor housing. The output shaft seems solid, I have not indicated it yet, but I suspect that'll be ok.










I did notice the internal fan seems a bit wobbly when running. The thing is also filthy inside.










Any thoughts on this vibration? Does it make sense to tear it all apart to see what's up with the fan and clean it up? Any risk in doing that?

Thanks!


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Jefsmk congrats on the purchase! I got the same motor but it’s pretty beat up. Running test and all that tonight.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> Jefsmk congrats on the purchase! I got the same motor but it’s pretty beat up. Running test and all that tonight.


Very nice. How are you handling adapting from the splined shaft? Mine seems like a special spline (15T, and like 1.33" OD?), so I'm thinking of trying to take the motor apart and have the shaft turned and a keyway machined at a local machine shop. What's your plan?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

In engineering terms a keyway is CRAP compared to a spline - much better simply looking for the appropriate female spline


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

I will be posting what I do in the Motor A or B thread if you would like to chime in with your findings there I would really appreciate it! I will most likely be going direct drive. Creating a support bearing and 1310 yoke is the plan right now. Will use the existing 15 spline if possible. If not same plane 1” with a 1/4” key way. Don’t want to weld. What is your plan on disassembly? Planning on standing it vertical but don’t know if shaft should be up or down. It looks like it comes apart in three sections using the bolts connecting the outer two pieces to the center.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

Duncan said:


> In engineering terms a keyway is CRAP compared to a spline - much better simply looking for the appropriate female spline


Same opinion with key and taper-lock type hub?

Any tips where I might be able to locate a mating spline? Been all over the web, and a custom broach I suspect will cost a fortune. Place I got the motor said the female is part of the torque converter, so I don't think I'm going to be able to go that route.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I would be VERY surprised if it connected to a torque converter!

It will be a std industrial spline - around here I would drop into a tractor shop and see what they have

Taper lock is better than keyed - a taper lock will take much more load the only thing the key does is to assist you if it needs to be "timed" - and I can't imagine needing that


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Taper-lock and key can transmit a lot of torque, some use a hardened key to improve reliability but sometimes having something to shear can be a good thing. I've never had an issue on a motorcycle after hundreds of high power passes at the drag strip (and quite a few land speed runs). My regular "drivers" have all used key/taper-lock but these weren't big power makers.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> I will be posting what I do in the Motor A or B thread if you would like to chime in with your findings there I would really appreciate it! I will most likely be going direct drive. Creating a support bearing and 1310 yoke is the plan right now. Will use the existing 15 spline if possible. If not same plane 1” with a 1/4” key way. Don’t want to weld. What is your plan on disassembly? Planning on standing it vertical but don’t know if shaft should be up or down. It looks like it comes apart in three sections using the bolts connecting the outer two pieces to the center.


Got my motor apart, some notes and pictures of the process:

http://smeker.org/index.php/conversion-process-blog/16-motor-disassembly-and-brush-timing-review

Does anybody have thoughts on cleaning this motor? Should I scrape out the gunk in between the commutator and rotator sections? Just wipe it down best I can?


















And any thoughts on best way to clean this disaster?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You don't want to dig out between the commutators but you do want to clean between them. I'd use a brush like a nice stiff tooth brush to clean. You can buy larger plastic cleaning brushes. They will keep the parts in good shape. Lots of gunk to clean out. This is my first Driveable EV I converted. Im using a nice GE 9" Motor in this baby. I still have a nice GE 9" motor. 

http://www.evalbum.com/1412


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

jefsmk said:


> Got my motor apart, some notes and pictures of the process:
> 
> http://smeker.org/index.php/conversion-process-blog/16-motor-disassembly-and-brush-timing-review
> 
> ...


Nice my thoughts were correct! What’s the purpose of the 4 bolt holes on the cap that has A1/A2, I’m guessing a bearing/holder?

Edit: Just read your website entry. I had a feeling a front bearing would be needed. I’ve seen pictures of this motor with a bearing on the outside of the case on the shaft.


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Found this 7.2 inch prestolite hydraulic pump motor on a Daewoo B20x. I have nooo idea what it is but it seems to spin real fast at 12 volts. I plan to use it at 72 or 96v in a mini classic which is about 1200 pounds. Anyone recognize it? Name plate says its made by Prestolite. My expectations are 60mph. Name plate on it says 8.5kw 48 volts and a part/serial number. It has a internally splinded shaft but I bought the pump so have the shaft too. It weighs 40kg/88lbs and is about 7.2 inches in diameter.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I won't speak to the motor identity, but, a 7" motor is really, really small for an EV that you want to travel at highway speed.

That said, a 1200 lb car is also really small and light.

If it's possible, it's only just borderline possible.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

offgrid said:


> Found this 7.2 inch prestolite hydraulic pump motor on a Daewoo B20x. I have nooo idea what it is but it seems to spin real fast at 12 volts. I plan to use it at 72 or 96v in a mini classic which is about 1200 pounds. Anyone recognize it? Name plate says its made by Prestolite. My expectations are 60mph. Name plate on it says 8.5kw 48 volts and a part/serial number. It has a internally splinded shaft but I bought the pump so have the shaft too. It weighs 40kg/88lbs and is about 7.2 inches in diameter.


Interesting. Does this motor have a drive end bearing? The wear pattern on that brush face looks like it may have been riding a bit off the edge of the comm.
A few other comments: Prestolie Asia is not the old Prestolite USA. Although their motors have a striking resemblance. A while back I did a search to find a connection between the companies and came up blank. 
The motor shown is undoubtedly a lift pump motor. Its design characteristics mimic the Prestolie USA of old 6.7" diameter motor product line however the 88lb weight is in line with the 7.2" dia motor products.
The S3, 15% on the nameplate is a standard for rating pump motors meaning on for 1.5 minutes, off for 8.5 minutes (10 minute duty cycle) repeated continuously at 8.5 kW output power maintaining class H insulation temperature limits (180°C).
It appears to have some issues with that spline drive. Fretting corrosion due to alignment trouble. 
Judging from comm segments and your test comments, I suspect you'd have difficulty with excessive RPM trying to overvolt it to increase power. 
I think I'd look for a better candidate to repurpose for a 60 mph EV conversion.
Regards,
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks so much Major! After reading alot of posts and seeing your knowledgeable comments I was really hoping you would comment hehe. Yes it does have a drive end bearing and spins freely without the pump or shaft attached. In terms of the corrosion on the shaft, most of the discoloration is from some sort of grease or maybe some of the hydrolic fluid from the pump. There's no visible wear that I can see. The brushes on the commutator don't seem to fill the the whole commutator bar, the 4 bushes and thier brush holders seem to be aligned to the back of the comm bar. In my limited knowledge it looks like it was made that way? On the rpm of the motor, this thing seems to spin super fast at 12v. I've had another 13 inch series wound forklift motor that spun slowly at the same power so I don't know if this high rpm is a good or bad thing. She sounds great though and the motor appears almost new inside with no wear, grooves or pitting on the commutator. I'll try attach a small video of spin up. What would be your main concern of using this in a mini classic car? Thanks again

Video of the spin up on 12v 
https://youtu.be/D3KhhjNkjzs


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

offgrid said:


> Thanks so much Major! After reading alot of posts and seeing your knowledgeable comments I was really hoping you would comment hehe. Yes it does have a drive end bearing and spins freely without the pump or shaft attached. In terms of the corrosion on the shaft, most of the discoloration is from some sort of grease or maybe some of the hydrolic fluid from the pump. There's no visible wear that I can see. The brushes on the commutator don't seem to fill the the whole commutator bar, the 4 bushes and thier brush holders seem to be aligned to the back of the comm bar. In my limited knowledge it looks like it was made that way? On the rpm of the motor, this thing seems to spin super fast at 12v. I've had another 13 inch series wound forklift motor that spun slowly at the same power so I don't know if this high rpm is a good or bad thing. She sounds great though and the motor appears almost new inside with no wear, grooves or pitting on the commutator. I'll try attach a small video of spin up. What would be your main concern of using this in a mini classic car? Thanks again
> 
> Video of the spin up on 12v
> https://youtu.be/D3KhhjNkjzs


I’m no expert yet, but I think it will be to small. From my understanding it’s not an issue of will it be enough to move the vehicle. It’s an issue of will it move the vehicle efficiently and effectively. I imagine at such high RPMs that the motor will quickly heat up. If you are going to move forward with this motor no matter what, gear reduction and forced cooling will be key.


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks guys, what you say makes sense. The same forklift also has 2 bigger 4kw drive motors. Do you think that would be better suited? I'm just worried about it being only 4kw. This little pump motor is 8.5kw, pretty much double the power rating. What would you do. Investigate a different forklift or use the 4kw and over volt it. I appreciate the help and the time you guys take to help others. Below is my motorbike I converted using a me1003 and alltrax 7245. This is the world's first Lithium titanate motorcycle. (for those interested but off topic)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The pump motor rating is S3, 15% on-time. Drive motors are S1 (IIRC) rated, one-hour. It is not uncommon for a short duty cycle rating to be twice the one-hour rating on the same motor. 
Also, the drive motor is likely rated at lower RPM making it a better candidate for increasing power by raising voltage.
Regards,
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks Major!!! With it being a 4kw drive motor, what kw or voltage could a person push them? I'm going to see the guy Thursday and he said he would give me a good deal.Anything I should look out for besides commutator wear, brushes etc. Should I rather just take as many pics of everything and post here and then based on what you say go from there? Remember is most likely going to be in a Leyland or bullnose mini. Perhaps something else but will be less than 2000lbs. The smaller the car the more I save on weight which equals less batteries which at the end of the day is the biggest cost.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

offgrid said:


> Thanks Major!!! With it being a 4kw drive motor, what kw or voltage could a person push them?


I have a 10 Kw Hitachi motor - 48 volt and 200 amps
And I'm feeding it 1200 amps and 340 volts

But that is a wee bit extreme 
If you have both of the drive motors you can afford to abuse one and keep the other as a spare

"Saving on batteries" - maybe - but for a car wind resistance is at least as important as weight and my car (with dreadful aerodynamics) eats about 20 Kw at 100 kph despite only weighing 800 kg


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Duncan said:


> I have a 10 Kw Hitachi motor - 48 volt and 200 amps
> And I'm feeding it 1200 amps and 340 volts
> 
> But that is a wee bit extreme
> ...


Woah thats quit a bit of power! Not a bad idea on getting x2 of the 4Kw drive motors.

Major also thanks for your comments, what you say makes sense. I'll have a look at the drive motor and some other motors.

Just on a side note, look what I found on my current 8.5kw "Prestolite" motor. Your thoughts? Those RPMS look lower than my bench test. I am not sure which one is mine but the KKDF one looks exactly like mine with the same stats and the LNAQ just has a generic pic but same 8.5kw stats too.

*KKDF*
https://detail.en.china.cn/provide/p111075435.html
Specifications
8.5kw, 48V, 290A, 1450rpm, S3-15%, Series

*LNAQ*
https://detail.en.china.cn/provide/p111075535.html
Specifications
8.5kw, 48V, 238A, 1665rpm, S2-10min, Series


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Found some more info on the pump motor I have. Not sure if this makes any difference. The RPM is definitely lower than what I thought... See attachment


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

offgrid said:


> *KKDF*
> https://detail.en.china.cn/provide/p111075435.html
> Specifications
> 8.5kw, 48V, 290A, 1450rpm, S3-15%, Series


This conflicts with the table of specs on your subsequent post which gives 1520 RPM, S2-5min, and Separately Excited.
For motor rating specs, the RPM indicated is what the machine develops at rated load. For series wound motors, the no-load RPM is theoretically infinite, realistically limited by its self loading due to friction and windage. That's the reason no-load tests are run at low voltage.
It is uncommon to see a lift pump motor with a SepEx winding, but could be part of a variable flow system. A couple of things make me suspect it might be a SepEx or custom wound. There is a third terminal, in the comm end casting. You do not connect it for your no-load test. Typically on a series wound motor, on the no-load test, when you touch the battery leads to the motor terminals, there is an inrush current. This happens very quickly. This high inrush current (sudden) causes quite a sizeable torque pulse, usually enough to roll the motor on the bench, or in this case, lift one side of the bracket. I don't see that on your test. Relatively speaking, you have a slow smooth acceleration. This might indicate that the field excitation is low.
Regards,
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Wow mind blown Major. Yes there's a bit of conflicting info on the web, to make matters worse is it looks like this Prestolite Asia place is out of business as I cant even load thier web page. I had to use a web tool that finds old offline copies of websites from previous years and try get that table.
So would you still say this 7.2 inch motor is not suitable for a 1200 lbs car? Obviously with forced air cooling strapped to the commutator end?

I went to look at the 2 drive motors from the same forklift today and they are tiny! I took alot of pics of many things as I can for you guys but I doubt these have any use even in a motorcycle. What's your thoughts? I really wish I could find a motor for this little mini.

Thanks again to you and the other guys commenting. I read everything but sometimes need to go away and do more research to ensure I've understood what you say. Thanks for your patience. Attached are the pics of the drive motors.8cm diameter or 3 inches lol.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

That last photo shows a terminal in the comm end casting as well, the one with the blue insulated ring terminal still on it. So maybe it is for the bwi. 
So on my previous post, the bit about lack of starting torque, if a series motor, could be due to a badly drooping battery, where the voltage falls on its face during the inrush.
That size drive motor is common for dual drive forklifts. 
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

SOOOO I'm guessing you want me to try open up the 7.2 inch then and take pics of the insides? Are you saying there's a chance Major or do you feel this motor is not worth using in a ev 😂 Also if you feel I should keep looking... I may have found a better candidate. See below attachment.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I give advice and opinion on motors, not applications. Too many variables. Besides other members willing to do that part. Check out the EValbum for the size vehicle and desired performance.

If the motor turns out to be SepEx or "special" wound, then I suggest not using it due to controller availability. Before disassembly, run the no-load test with a voltmeter across the motor terminals and the scale visible in the vid so the droop, or sag, can be seen during the inrush.
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Fair enough and I see your point about application. I've done the voltage drop test. I think you're right. That seems like a pretty significant drop. Possibly series wound after all?

https://youtu.be/cmn8rpy2Z-U


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Not too drastic of a sag. Again, I noticed no torque jerk on the motor. Usually they jump when the cable makes contact.
I'd be happy to look at the motor guts.
major


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks, appreciated! I made a video but wasnt able to remove the bearing as I lent mine to a friend. Hmm I need to get that back. I tried to show as much as I can with it sort of disassembled. I don't know if this helps at all. 😞
https://youtu.be/9-WrA2WF1aA


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Any comments 🤐👀


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

offgrid said:


> Any comments 🤐👀


It looks like a series wound dc motor. Again, in my opinion, it’s on the smaller side for powering a car. It will be overworked and over heat. Not enough torque, and would operate at high rpms. Looks good for a go kart, club car, NEV etc.


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks skweeks. So find a other then. I weighed my mini today... 1200lbs it's tiny. I was really hoping this motor could propel it without overheating.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

offgrid said:


> Thanks skweeks. So find a other then. I weighed my mini today... 1200lbs it's tiny. I was really hoping this motor could propel it without overheating.


Is that 1200lbs stripped? With battery weight etc I imagine your finished weight will still be below 1600lbs. This motor world probably power it to NEV standards. That is, an under 40 mph grocery getter like the Dynasty IT vehicle. Using a transmission would be a must also to provide the starting torque. Motor selection is based on preferences, design, and end goals. If your set on using this, it will put the car in motion just not as good as a bigger more torquey motor.


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## offgrid (Oct 15, 2011)

You right Skweeks, with this Corona issue it's a bit difficult to shop for motors at this point. That's the loaded weight, it's actually about 1300lbs or 611kg with motor and gearbox and all equipment, I need to make this skinny lady skinnier. I've attached some pics for you.


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

Good night everyone
sorry I'm new to the forum and I was reading thru this thread 1/3 of the way (80 pages) to try to find info on a general guideline or a chart on forklift motors and application for cars/weight

I HAVE A SUGGESTION, and please don't get me wrong
I think this will be very helpful for future DIYers 

so there are thousands of different DC motors from forklifts drive and pumps and I see people posting pictures of motors from ebay and local forklift salvage yards and asking if there are good for their X or Y application
I understand that not all used motors have their tag and the size and will only be the way to go on these

I see a lot of focus been done on the size of the motor, but I don't trust this 100%, for example;
motor X=9'' diameter 14'' long can only be 7kw
motor Y=8'' diameter 12'' long and can be 9kw

if your motor has a tag or you know what forklift it came from you can search its specs

my idea is that if the more experience members can do a chart like 
cars 
1,500 to 1,800 pounds - 6-7kw 5-6hp 
1,900 to 2,100 pounds - 8-9kw 8-9hp
2,200 to 2,500 pounds - 11-14kw 13-15hp
.
.
.
.
maybe an excel sheet with reference to recommendations on battery volts hook ups for +RPMs, volts x ah for range/weight, etc.…….

just trying to help


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

OR-Carl said:


> Ok guys, I have reached the 250th page, and I am going to add to this previous summary that I found
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks great info
just posted a request for like a chart info ''rule of thumb"
but them I started reading backwards and ran into your post

one question (newbie):
why do you suggest drive motor and not the pump motor??
whats the difference


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> one question (newbie):
> why do you suggest drive motor and not the pump motor??
> whats the difference


The drive motor moves the wheels. The pump motor pumps hydraulic fluid that is normally used to do the lifting.

The drive motor is designed to go forward and backwards, eliminating the need for a mechanical reverse. It will have 4 terminals because the way to reverse a series motor is to flip one pair of windings relative to the other pair.

The pump motor always turns the same way. So even if it's the same type and size of motor, often the two middle terminals will be continuous or connected together internally.

From what I've seen, drive motors often have fans. Pump motors do not.

Drive motors are typically larger, pump motors are typically smaller.

Pump motors tend to have a female output that the male pump plugs into, and this can be tricky to get a coupler for (take the pump too, and perform surgery on it).

And they'll be rated for different duty cycles, I think pump motors are generally not running continuously like drive motors are designed to be capable of.

You can use a pump motor if you want to, if it's the right size, if you have a mechanical reverse or you're okay doing a little surgery on it, if you take into effect the duty cycle (same as you would have to take in the duty cycle on a drive motor, it just might be a different duty cycle).


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

ok thanks great info

I talk to someone today and might be getting some motor options tomorow
I'll post them and get your input on them


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

found a motor today 

11'' diameter
16'' long
about 230 pounds
from a 4500 pound forklift 48v
cant read the id plate

how do I upload the pictures??


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> how do I upload the pictures??


The attachment button is super glitchy lately, and not showing up for everyone (including, intermittently, me): https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/missing-menu-attachments-202635.html

As a workaround...

Go to: http://imgur.com and then upload your images, copy the link to them, and then encase them between square bracket (img)Urlhere.jpg(/img) tags (like that, but with square brackets instead of round ones).

Your motor sounds like a good one though.


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> The attachment button is super glitchy lately, and not showing up for everyone (including, intermittently, me): https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/missing-menu-attachments-202635.html
> 
> As a workaround...
> 
> ...


ok thanks for the help 

https://imgur.com/rSsumHB

https://imgur.com/Fr0O10f


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

[email protected]ahoo.com said:


> ok thanks for the help


If you right-click the images and select "copy image location" and then put that in image tags, you can hotlink them directly. Like so:


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

what do you think of this motor??
will it work ok on a 2,200 pound convertion


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## Monster_Truck28 (May 5, 2020)

Hello eveyone

I just picked up a 12in Ge motor BJ40-76 I think is a short one because only has the view holes at the back. No fan blads at the front.

Wanting to make as much power the motor can handle thinking of 125v and 1000amps for start wondering if any I could contact to see what I could do to make it last a long time with a lot of power. The motor has the smaller commutator count. People said the smaller number of com bars the more volts.
Also thinking about clocking it 10 degrees

Looking at the paul and sabrina controller 350v and 1000 amp
if any one could also send a link of how to build and parts list on this controller found many of the 144v volt one but not the 350v 100amp one.

Thank yall


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2020)

hello
found another DC motor
its smaller than the other one I found
please let me know what you think of this one

https://i.imgur.com/KENEJEC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gwoEcpz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qUyH3Oh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3FP7IQu.jpg

sorry I could hotlink the images to the post


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## SillyTechie (Jun 12, 2020)

Hey guys... I'm currently just in the research phase of a DIY EV conversion.... 
I've seen a few webpages with motor calculations but it's way over my head... 

so I'm hoping you can help me out...

Would this motor be good enough to propel a 2000 Honda CRV?








https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hkUMXqyZhwn0KipjN7IVB79LqZDV9pmN/view?usp=sharing

If not, what motor specifications would you suggest me to look for in order to propel that vehicle (curb weight 3126 and has 15" wheels)


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

SillyTechie said:


> Hey guys... I'm currently just in the research phase of a DIY EV conversion....
> I've seen a few webpages with motor calculations but it's way over my head...
> 
> so I'm hoping you can help me out...
> ...


You want a 9-11” dc series wound motor if you are going dc. Typically traction motors out of a forklift.


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

This is more of a generic question regarding AC forklift motors. I admit I don't understand AC as well as DC but I'm wondering if they can be run at higher voltage to get more speed and possibly more power to make them viable for use in an EV. I did some reading of older discussions on here using AC forklift motors in an EV and it sounded like a bad choice, mostly because of finding a suitable controller.Is that still the case? I know there have been quite a few successful AC controllers built for running OEM EV motors recently. Could they be used with a forklift motor instead? Are AC forklift motors much different? I know they run slower, but do they have to? Rpm/volt is about the same as the automotive motors. Reason I'm asking, I got an older AC forklift that I'm trying to decide what to do with. Just wondering if the motors would be usable for a conversion if I decide to part it out.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

puddleglum said:


> I know there have been quite a few successful AC controllers built for running OEM EV motors recently. Could they be used with a forklift motor instead?


Yes, you can control any AC motor with the DIY solutions out there that repurpose OEM EV inverters.



> Are AC forklift motors much different? I know they run slower, but do they have to? Rpm/volt is about the same as the automotive motors. Reason I'm asking, I got an older AC forklift that I'm trying to decide what to do with. Just wondering if the motors would be usable for a conversion if I decide to part it out.


My plan is to run a 48v motor at much higher voltage and speed, fed by a Prius Gen 2 inverter controlled by one of Damien's control boards and Johannes' Open Inverter software. However, I haven't gotten that far yet so I can't report back as to what it can do.

A benefit of using AC is that you can also do regen, if that matters to you.


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## Agent_86 (Jul 21, 2020)

I just posted pics and detailed questions on a separate thread, but I'm looking at a forklift where is has 4 connections going to the motor. Does this mean it's sepex?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

H 86,
No, however SepEx motors do have 4 terminals. 2 for armature, usually A1 and A2. 2 for the field, usually labeled F1 and F2. Series motors typically use A1, A2, S1 and S2.
major


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## Gene B (Oct 13, 2020)

Awesome Engineering with specifications advice. Don't believe anything is overstated--probably conservative


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## Gene B (Oct 13, 2020)

MarshallMiller said:


> That particular diff is a 3.73. I like the BMW differentials because they used the same diff on all their cars, but changed the ring and pinion. So there is a wide selection of gear ratios, From 2.79 to 5.44. AC is supposed to be a better choice for direct drive due to the wider power band.


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## Gene B (Oct 13, 2020)

xrotaryguy said:


> I'm sure that many rear end ratios do exist for Beemers. You would probably have to buy a gear set from a company that sells parts for race cars. A nice gear ratio might be in the 4.88 or even 5.13:1 range. That would be nice and LOW. I don't know if a Beemer differential housing is big engough to go that low though... Oh heck. My Rx2 diff was big enough to run a 4.88. A Beemer should be capable of that


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## Gene B (Oct 13, 2020)

Gene B said:


> v


 Driving will be small town, USA, so rear end gear ratio of 5-7:1 be good?


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## Gene B (Oct 13, 2020)

mjones said:


> Thanks for the info and another ? What is the approx HP rating on these motors?





skimask said:


> What's the deal here? Do you got a crystal ball or what!
> 
> 
> 2 and 5 ft/lbs? Doesn't seem like a whole heck of a lot!
> ...


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## Ian J. (Feb 21, 2021)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> it's my impression that you can in principle feed them any voltage. it's not like a 24V motor will melt if you feed it 36V. volt in principle can't hurt it BUT volt motivates current to appear. the higher voltage the more current will tend to appear and current can destroy a motor. to really understand it you have to understand the physics concept of work. nature has a magical way of ensuring you pay for the work a motor does. work is the force (or torque) applied over a distance. if you apply force and nothing moves you don't have to pay for it. just like a paper weight is free force. that force (or torque in the case of a motor which is just force going in circles) comes from the current and the work done during rotation is paid for with voltage. you can imagine a worker that only does as you pay him.
> this means for instance if the motor is stalled, let's say up against a wall and can't turn even a little voltage will make the current rise a lot because there is no rotation and no work done. you pay voltage and it tries to make work. when it can't the current rises dramatically, in theory infinitely if it weren't for resistance in the wires. but going 100km/h it wants a lot of voltage to maintain a current level. if you don't feed it the current will drop to the level you feed it. nature has a 'magical' way to make sure you get exactly what you pay for.
> so voltage motivates current in a balance with how much work the motor does. slow rpm it's easy to motivate current to appear. high rpm it takes more voltage.
> a motor's limit is a current limit and not a voltage limit BUT there is an indirect voltage limit because the motor can only handle so high an rpm for mechanical reasons.
> ...


This is awesome! I’m going to throw this formula into an excel page and noodle around with it to see what motor/battery combo I need for my 
‘65 beetle to go 70-80mph briefly but be able to cruise at 60 or less for a 100 mile range


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Ian J. said:


> This is awesome! I’m going to throw this formula into an excel page and noodle around with it to see what motor/battery combo I need for my
> ‘65 beetle to go 70-80mph briefly but be able to cruise at 60 or less for a 100 mile range


Something to bear in mind is that the current limit is time related
My motor is "rated" at 200 amps - that is the one hour rating - basically it will not overheat at 200 amps
HOWEVER that is at about 1400rpm - at say 4200rpm the built in fan is putting a lot more air through the motor

AND - an hour is a long time

In my car I feed that motor with 1200 amps - and it survives as I can only feed it for a few seconds before I have to lift off

I'm running a 340 volt battery


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## Tommy McL (Mar 21, 2021)

Dear all in this amazing site, 

Greetings and congrats to all those who who have posted. Every point of view is information for others like me who have been tested positive on "I want to build / convert an EV".

I have the chance to purchase 3 different motors from one forklift (see attached photos) for $250, ready for collection.

If I get these motors, what would be the "sweet" conversion voltage to run them and how heavy can the total build be? Planning a budget conversion and keeping the shift transmission.

Any reviews / replies appreciated.

Cheers, Tommy

PS: The second motor is rated at 180 amps, as the photo is not clear...

PPS: any suggestions for a Siamese layout before the tranny are welcome (Space issues discussed later)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The two motors attached to pumps may be female shafts and would likely be useless.


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## Tommy McL (Mar 21, 2021)

Hello again,

This time I have the chance to get a Motor with the same specs as the motor in the attached photo.

(I hope the original poster of the image does not mind me using it).

The "No E 534671" is different, the rest is the same.

Any pros and cons? What would be a reasonable price to pay for it?

Any input from the members out there is very welcome  

cheers, Tommy


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tommy McL said:


> This time I have the chance to get a Motor with the same specs as the motor in the attached photo...


That's not a "forklift" motor, or a brushed series-wound DC motor (which is what people usually mean by "forklift" motor). This isn't the thread to discuss it. Why not post a separate thread (in this same section of the forum)?

In your new post, mention that is a Siemens 1PV5135-4WS14; there is lots of experience with them. Or just search the forum for "1PV5135-4WS14".


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## Tommy McL (Mar 21, 2021)

Oops...

what brian_ mentioned is correct. Many thanks. Also thanks for the suggestion.

If a Forum Administrator can relocate my post, I would be thankful. No point in complicating this thread.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tommy McL said:


> If a Forum Administrator can relocate my post, I would be thankful. No point in complicating this thread.


Good idea, but there is no longer any active forum administration. It would be easier to just create a new thread, and perhaps edit out the contents of the posts in this thread (since members can't delete even their own posts in the current forum software).


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## Stephen the Obdurate (Apr 18, 2021)

I'm trying to find a smallish motor 1/4 to 1/2 HP and 24v to 28v (12v would be OK but would double the current) I won't exceed 25 mph on the flat. I haven't found any part numbers or sources. Any suggestions?


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## XxGrimlyxX (Apr 28, 2021)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Actually just the opposite, being they are wound a little courser (heavier wire and less turns) and in general will have a higher RPM at "X" current when compared to the basic "EV" produced motors. As for the stated 3500 RPM's that's determined by voltage and load on the motor and also in general is a decent sweet spot RPM (3K to 4.5K) for a lot of motors.
> 
> I've seen and built a number of converted lift motors and they do nicely. It's not EVeryone's cup of tea but for those you are under a budget and are handy with tooling it can be a great way to get a drive motor. Shafts and adapting the motor are the biggest issues when compared to motors that have adaptor plates already designed and available. You usually have to advance the brush timing on these motors (where as the ADC's and Warp's are already advanced) for a higher voltage.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of using the transmission for it's torque conversion do you think that could make a difference in the size of the motor I know with electric vehicle you Don't need a transmission but I think gear ratios are defiantly valid when talking about efficiency in vehicles especially for toque


Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all
> 
> I thought I'd chime in and discuss the basics on choosing a forklift motor. In general, I advise people to look for a motor that weighs between 100 to 150 lbs. The heavier the car, the heavier the motor needs to be to push it around. The way I see it is, you don't want Peewee hermin trying to pull you around but you probably don't want to feed Hulk Hogan either, lol.
> 
> ...


I thought about just boring out the crank shaft and turning it there. would that work? I would remove the gas lines and spark plugs then try to turn the cylinders into a big electric air pump, but if I'm turning the crankshaft that will convert the torque for me so I shouldn't have to do anything else with the engine correct?


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## Stephen the Obdurate (Apr 18, 2021)

XxGrimlyxX said:


> I was thinking of using the transmission for it's torque conversion do you think that could make a difference in the size of the motor I know with electric vehicle you Don't need a transmission but I think gear ratios are defiantly valid when talking about efficiency in vehicles especially for toque
> 
> I thought about just boring out the crank shaft and turning it there. would that work? I would remove the gas lines and spark plugs then try to turn the cylinders into a big electric air pump, but if I'm turning the crankshaft that will convert the torque for me so I shouldn't have to do anything else with the engine correct?


I intend to connect to the transmission shaft using the center of an old clutch plate pressed into a machined hollow shaft .I usually can do this by heating the hollow shaft to 400 deg in an oven so it expands, rather using a press. The shaft will have to be machined to fit the motor if I cant find a suitable shaft,


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

XxGrimlyxX said:


> I thought about just boring out the crank shaft and turning it there. would that work? I would remove the gas lines and spark plugs then try to turn the cylinders into a big electric air pump...


Please don't fill this thread about forklift motors with unrelated stuff.


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## Stephen the Obdurate (Apr 18, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Please don't fill this thread about forklift motors with unrelated stuff.
> [/QUOTEI was replying to a previous comment. Is that OK with the thread police?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Stephen the Obdurate said:


> I was replying to a previous comment. Is that OK with the thread police?


No, because you're just encouraging the nonsense, but my remark was explicitly about the scheme to make an engine into motor bracket.


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## Stephen the Obdurate (Apr 18, 2021)

brian_ said:


> No, because you're just encouraging the nonsense, but my remark was explicitly about the scheme to make an engine into motor bracket.


Well, if it's not OK, do I need to punish myself? I never said Iwas going to make an engine into a bracket. That would be ridiculous. I need to REPLACE the engine with an electric motor, duh.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe read the post you initially replied to.


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## pdjwhite (Aug 4, 2020)

Hi all

Is this any good?









DC Series Wound Large Electric Motor | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for DC Series Wound Large Electric Motor at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk


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## pdjwhite (Aug 4, 2020)

Or this









DC Series Wound Large Electric Motor | eBay


<body><p>DC Series Wound Large Electric Motor. Removed from large 4 tone forklift years ago and dry stored. This is a DC motor with 4 terminals but that’s all I know about it apart from its very heavy! </p><br /><br /><p>Delivery could be arranged on a pallet.</p></body>



www.ebay.co.uk


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

pdjwhite said:


> Hi all
> 
> Is this any good?
> 
> ...


Unless you know where to get the matching male spline I'd stay away.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Unless you know where to get the matching male spline I'd stay away.


Even if you can still stay away! - motors with the female spline are nearly impossible to use in a car
Besides its a bit too small


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## pdjwhite (Aug 4, 2020)

This one?









18 kW motor, 60 Hz, 3-phase by rotor nl | eBay


3-phase electric AC motor by rotor nl 18 kW. The motor has not been used but has marks from storage. spindle length 110 mm.



www.ebay.co.uk


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

pdjwhite said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope that one is completely useless

EBay is not your best bet
Find out who services electric forklifts near you - then VISIT with some cash
You should be talking about 100 pounds for a 9 or 11 inch motor


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## pdjwhite (Aug 4, 2020)

Duncan said:


> Nope that one is completely useless
> 
> EBay is not your best bet
> Find out who services electric forklifts near you - then VISIT with some cash
> You should be talking about 100 pounds for a 9 or 11 inch motor


OK andks duncan. I will see who is near.

What other specs are important or is it solely on the size and the shaft?

Voltage, amps, kW?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

There is a whole thread on what to look for! - its worth skimming your way through - this thread!!!

But it does kind of boil down to
Type - Series DC
Size
Size of brushes
Back when I built my car it was DC forklift motors

Today if I was starting again I would be using the motor and transmission from a crashed production EV


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## Thaddeus_The_Bold (Apr 11, 2016)

Hi,

I have decided now is the time to build an EV and I'm going to start assembling the bits and pieces over the course of this winter. Next summer, I build.

A good starting point would be a motor. I love this thread but I can't read the whole thing... I just want the core criteria of the motor I am looking for. Is this list complete and correct?

DC Motor
Male shaft with keyway
100-150 pounds
Highest 'native' voltage possible
I saw something about cabling/windings, can someone link me to a post that describes what is desirable?
I saw something about 'advancing the brushes', can someone link me to a post that describes how this is done, and can anyone tell me if some motors can't support this, and how to identify them so I can avoid buying a bad one?

Anything else? 

Thank you!


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## Thaddeus_The_Bold (Apr 11, 2016)

PS Never mind about 'advancing the brushes', I have found multiple good posts on that. Thx


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## Rojerrojer (11 mo ago)

Greetings EV people.
I am embarking on a t3 VW bus build. Locally available motors from a forklift breaker seem a bit small other than the following, has anyone ever heard of these Meiden 3 phase “inverter controlled” motor?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Rojerrojer said:


> Greetings EV people.
> I am embarking on a t3 VW bus build. Locally available motors from a forklift breaker seem a bit small other than the following, has anyone ever heard of these Meiden 3 phase “inverter controlled” motor?


If it's "3-phase" or "inverter controlled" it's not a brushed DC series-wound motor. There's nothing wrong with that, but despite the thread title about "forklifts", this thread is really only about brushed DC series-wound motors. 

I suggest starting a new thread in this same Electric Motors section of the forum for this specific motor.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Run both of those on a belt drive and you'll be good. Need an inverter vs a DC speed controller to run them, as has been noted. One inverter can do both if they run to a common pulley.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

This thread reminds me we haven't seen Major in over a year :/


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## Tech7 (9 mo ago)

Need help with finding specs on the hyster motor that was given to me. It's HYSTER part no. is 338609, serial no. 5B .12906. What kind of HP does it have and what kind of speed controller do I need. I'd appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks!


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## wstein25 (11 mo ago)

Hi Torque Electric said:


> Hey all
> 
> I thought I'd chime in and discuss the basics on choosing a forklift motor. In general, I advise people to look for a motor that weighs between 100 to 150 lbs. The heavier the car, the heavier the motor needs to be to push it around. The way I see it is, you don't want Peewee hermin trying to pull you around but you probably don't want to feed Hulk Hogan either, lol.
> 
> ...


Hi Jim - thanks for all this info. I stumbled across a forklift yesterday, a Clark TMG25. I think it's a 5000 lb capacity lift. Any way to know what motor is in it? Google isn't helping me much, or the Clark web site. Thanks, Bill


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

wstein25 said:


> I stumbled across a forklift yesterday, a Clark TMG25. I think it's a 5000 lb capacity lift. Any way to know what motor is in it?


Like most others, you won't find much information... so just go by size and weight.

What's the diameter? Is it roughly proportional to other motors you've seen? How much does it weigh?

Since proportions are roughly the same, and weight is scales with proportions, usually the shorthand is to just know the inches of diameter of the motor. 7" for a motorbike. 9" for a car, 11" if you want something significantly powerful.

If they're stubby or otherwise odd-shaped, go by weight.


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## wstein25 (11 mo ago)

It was crammed in with a bunch of other stuff. I was able to take a photo of the metal labels on the forklift and the massive charger. I didn't see any way to access and get a view of the motor. It has to be a 36 volt motor, the charger Vmax was 45 volts and something like 170 amps.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

On Facebook very near me are 2 CAT 13" 200# forklift motors. Spline set up looks decent at first glance. 72V. $400 each. Hmmm.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Which is the price of a Leaf motor and is the excess weight of about 10kW in additional battery. 

If this was 2012, it'd be a no-brainer. Depends what you need for your build, in the end.


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## UglyCarFan (8 mo ago)

remy: my conclusion exactly. Discussed this with my friend, and came up with these thoughts, none of which are new or unique in any way:

We both like weird ugly cars that are mostly RWD.
The Lexus GS450H are easily available, easy to fab up in the cars we might select as recipients, and are powerful enough to do what we would like. Normal driving and cruising.
In spite of reading a lot on the Open Inverter forum, it isn't clear to me if we can buy one of the units from Damien/Johanne that would be assembled and come programmed done if required. The inverters themselves are easily purchased.
The Leaf motor is a great piece of equipment, but would require a fair amount of work to get it t work in a RWD application. I would be willing to mate it with a TorqueBox.
You commented early on that the new Ford motor is reasonably priced. I agree. I have not seen anything on pricing or availability of controllers/inverters. 
Neither of us is very interested in just doing a daily beater. I found a 2002 VW Beetle I can buy for $1k, but all the other costs will still add up. At some point, I might as well buy a new Leaf or Bolt, and replace one of my other ICE vehicles.
A Javelin, El Camino, etc is the type of car that would make us want to do the swap. Maybe a Corvair, C3, VW Thing, Jensen-Healey, etc.

If going the Damien route, I would want to acquire those parts before I bought any Lexus or other units.


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## Jay-Em (6 mo ago)

Hello all.
I understand I'm trying to revisit a thread from 15 years ago but it seems like not allot of people are using old fork lift motors and making there own EV conversions that way anymore.
I would really like to but would love a little guidance on what motor to look out for and you all seem to know your stuff.
I want to convert a smaller 4x4 with a kerb weight of 1165kg and would love your opinions on what DC brushed motor would work best.
Indo have a few hills I'll need to climb as well so wondering what sought of voltage I'll need to manage that.
I was thinking along the lines of a 90V motor bit was unsure if old forklift motors go that high? 
Also, what kind of motor would I need to look out for as in how to identify if it is the right one for me while I'm searching for one.

Thanks in advance.

JM


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You need to spec the max grade and at what speed you want climb it to establish the hp of the motor.

IMO, these days it's a huge mistake to use a DC motorized vehicle in hills and mountains...with regenerative braking (brushless motors generally) you can charge the battery going down the hill, which you then use the energy stored to climb it. Net is as if you were operating on flats. With a DC, you'll use friction brakes and fade them (you have zero compression braking unlike an ICE)to no brakes which is hazardous or you'll need to run the motor in reverse as a downhill brake, consuming significant battery energy.


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## Forrest (7 mo ago)

Hi Everyone

Does anyone know about a forklift motor source in the DC/Baltimore Area?

Any tips on finding one? My phone calls and eBay messages have all been unsuccessful.

P.S. I know the DC Forklift route is unadvised in this modern era - however I am locked in to DC due to some early cost related decisions I made for my Version 1. Mainly, I have a low voltage pack (Li-ion 77V nominal) and a beefy DC controller. I have all the components excluding a DC motor, whereas a high voltage AC system would require money I don't have. (Poor college student)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Phone calls and emails and ebay messages are no use at all!!

Step 1
Find out which companies locally REPAIR forklifts

Step 2
VISIT those companies - take cash or beer with you

You do not want to talk to the office types - you want to talk to the guys who repair the forklifts

They will probably have kept a good motor or two back from the scrap metal pile - Just in Case

You job is top persuade them to swap that motor for beer or cash - its worth about $100 in scrap metal


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

You probably don't have the option to talk directly to the shop guys, you'll have to go through the office folk first.

But yes. And, say it's a science project. They'll be more likely to give you old stuff they don't need that way.

Another option if you have your own tools, is to ask if there's a dead forklift in the back lot that you could take the motor out of yourself. There's probably one that'll need a weedwhacker to get close to. The motor's almost certainly fine.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Playing the poor student, and actually being one, is the Ace in your hand. Or maybe trade a few hours of sweat equity for that old motor.


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## Forrest (7 mo ago)

Thank you all - I will try some more places Monday. I'll make sure to mention that I am happy to extract from a dead forklift. "Science project" is also a good idea.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Forrest said:


> Thank you all - I will try some more places Monday. I'll make sure to mention that I am happy to extract from a dead forklift. "Science project" is also a good idea.


Be careful - Forklifts are HEAVY


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## Forrest (7 mo ago)

Success ish - I tracked someone down with a dead forklift.

Forklift is Hyster EX60XM, about 12000 lbs fully loaded.
Serial Number is F108V17319W (1999 i think?). Called the manufacturer and got motor numbers. Seems I am dealing with a 1351932 motor. Someone already posted a thread about it here so I have been doing some good reading.

Is it too big? The motor is about 250 lbs. My car is about 2000 lbs without the motor, so light. It is intended to be a daily driver, but also to have fun amounts of acceleration. For sure I want to use all 1000 motor amps on my controller. Not too concerned about efficiency, honestly. Any thoughts?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Forrest said:


> Success ish - I tracked someone down with a dead forklift.
> 
> Forklift is Hyster EX60XM, about 12000 lbs fully loaded.
> Serial Number is F108V17319W (1999 i think?). Called the manufacturer and got motor numbers. Seems I am dealing with a 1351932 motor. Someone already posted a thread about it here so I have been doing some good reading.
> ...


That is very similar in size to the Hitachi in my Device - should go very well - you will not require a gearbox


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Yours has a tube chassis - he'll probably shred the Miata tissue paper metal with it, lol.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Forrest said:


> Success ish - I tracked someone down with a dead forklift.


Congrats!



> Forklift is Hyster EX60XM, Seems I am dealing with a 1351932 motor. Someone already posted a thread about it here so I have been doing some good reading.


That looks like the same spline shaft I had on the Hyster I took apart.

Normally you have no trouble going to a transmission or tractor shop and finding something with that tooth pattern, but that particular Hyster gearbox, NOTHING but old Massey-Ferguson or Ford tractors from a specific era matched, and they were all $100+ when I looked.

I failed to find a way to get the transmission shaft out of the Hyster without really, really, really tearing the thing apart, and I went back to the yard several times to try. Hyster wanted high hundreds or low thousands of dollars for it, so I noped.

I've got pics and a method for getting the motor out though, it's around here somewhere... _digs_

Aha, it's earlier in this thread. 3 years ago. And someone else took pics of theirs that was for a Hyster EX50XL, not a 60XM, but pretty damned close. It's shortly after my post (and I followup with some additional thoughts).









Using a forklift motor, and choosing a good one


I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is series wound. Yes, and probably a really good overvolt candidate. Unfortunately the guy was asking 500EUR used so I took the obvious route of deleting his phone number :D. Upside is I found a Kostov K9 - new at a decent price; working on sorting out the...




www.diyelectriccar.com





And, just because it's topical again, here's a better writeup on how to get forklift places to help you:









To use gearbox & adapter plate - or not ?


Thanks, good to know you get 50km from 14kwh (& my aerodymanics probably aren't much better than yours, its actually a morgan-esque kit based on a Spitfire that I built about 35 years ago) Re 40kwh - yes agreed, hence the desire to lose the gearbox, but I reckon that using the petrol tank space...




www.diyelectriccar.com







> Is it too big? The motor is about 250 lbs


Yes, it's too big, but it'll work.

There are far lighter and more economic choices, but, free is also good.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

If the motor has a brake on it - a lot do
That is GOLD
Inside the brake will be the splined motor shaft and a female spline that goes on that shaft
With my Hitachi it was a drum brake and it was a piece of cake to make up a disc that located on the bit that drove the drum and on my propshaft


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## Forrest (7 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Yours has a tube chassis - he'll probably shred the Miata tissue paper metal with it, lol.


First I think I will shred my transmission (which will stay in for this version). Once I get to higher voltage and I am comfortable I won't ever want to change gears again then it will go. Differential will destroy itself before the frame after that, I think.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Congrats!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, such good links. Genuinely, thank you. I checked out the photos the guy you were helping posted on instagram.








This is the main drive motor coming out of the very similar model E50XM2, looks like a brake to me? From what I can tell, I will be able to see if there is a brake from the bottom of the lift.

That post from that thread I found mentioned the spline issue - some guy in 2016 said he found it for 55 dollars. Either way, I think attaching to the brake seems like a good idea, if I can do what Duncan did I will.

Seems like the next step is to go check it out with my new knowledge, especially looking for a brake. Thanks everyone!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Ditch the transmission and go straight to the driveshaft.

I pay tithes to the Church of Do it Once


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