# Hipower General Manager statement to customers and other DIYers



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

This lie is perpare for Customers name and telephone..
letter would be put on...

The test report of 48V100AH power type battery, could be seem as following,
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...est-report-48v100ah-battery-pack-42528p2.html

master distributor :

Zane Tatum,

[email protected];



carl ,

[email protected] 



chuck , 

[email protected] 

[email protected] 




brain , 

[email protected] 




dick dell ,

[email protected] 





Larry ,

[email protected] 

etc .


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EV's need 3C and higher batteries just as much as hybrids, so your argument is not very good. I'm glad you have improved your batteries, but the 1C performance of your old batteries is simply not acceptable for an EV, and that's why your batteries have a poor reputation. You are going to have to do some work to convince people the new cells are better, and simply posting graphs that you made doesn't prove anything. Until we see some testing from an independent third party it's going to be hard for any of us to spend our money on your batteries. Years ago when Thundersky shipped some bad LiCo cells it damaged their reputation for quite a while, and rightly so.


----------



## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Publishing customers' names and phone#'s might not be politically correct(?)

Distributors' comments about your batteries are one thing,

but, ACTUAL USERS comments are the MOST helpfull 

and.....

your written english skills really need improvement


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> your written english skills really need improvement


Still much better than my Chinese, and I'd guess yours as well


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Kevin,

those graphs are very impressive. What was the cell temperature during those tests?

I am taking the bait and ordering 4 pc 200 ah cells to replace my 4 weak TS cells. I will run TS and HiPower cells in series in one pack in my Protege and will monitor them via Paktrakr. I will share results on the forum.

If they can truly stay above 3 volts at 3C and above 3.1V at 2C it would be quite impressive, since my TS cells could never do that.

We'll see...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Might not be a great comparison since you are comparing the older non Yttrium TS cells with newer HP cells, but it will be interesting to see what the HP cells actually do.


----------



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

I already contracted with dimitri, 
the tesing would be done after he receive the cells.
The test of 100AH, 16 cells, is done by engineer, In ShangHai, China.
The data XLS document is auto generated by computer, about 25M.
and the curves are screenshoted by me,
so I have full confidence of those curves.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Might not be a great comparison since you are comparing the older non Yttrium TS cells with newer HP cells, but it will be interesting to see what the HP cells actually do.


Eric has new Yttrium TS cells and they still sag much deeper than TS datasheets make us believe, so I am not sure what benefits Yttrium adds.

My pack will be a Frankenstein since I will not throw away weak cells, I will parallel them in pairs and then add HP cells in series. My weak cells work fine up to 2C, so in pairs they should exceed other cells. I am also gaining 1 cell in the process, to get a 41 cell pack. This will add a little capacity without having to ship Zivan charger for reprogramming. My Zivan is 152V max, which is 3.8V per cell for 40 cells, after upgrade it will be 3.7V per cell, which is still very good charge level. I am gaining 2.5% capacity at the cost of 63 lb of additional weight. Should be a fun project


----------



## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

hipowerkevin said:


> This lie is perpare for Customers name and telephone..
> letter would be put on...
> 3C discharge curve
> View attachment 5810
> ...


Are they selling these new improved batteries at this web site?

http://lithiumstorage.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=4


----------



## maxvtol (Nov 11, 2009)

HP 200ah - larger and heavier than TS 200ah, hopefully HP would be better. 

Subscribed.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hipowerkevin said:


> 3C discharge curve
> View attachment 5810
> 
> 2C discharge curve
> ...


The curves are very nice to see, HOWEVER... 2C more or less continuous with stretches at 3C would be more the norm for 100ah cells; so cycle life at 3C is a definite concern for EV use. I would like to get some real-use testimonials for cycles at 'normal' 3C discharge.

Second, I note that the flat part of the curves drop off pretty fast past 80ah.... in a cell that is rated 100ah. Curves I saw for TS (I think as tested by Jack, but I can't remember for sure) showed that the flat part of the curve for the 100ah cells went to 100ah and THEN dropped....


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> The curves are very nice to see, HOWEVER... 2C more or less continuous with stretches at 3C would be more the norm for 100ah cells; so cycle life at 3C is a definite concern for EV use. I would like to get some real-use testimonials for cycles at 'normal' 3C discharge.
> 
> Second, I note that the flat part of the curves drop off pretty fast past 80ah.... in a cell that is rated 100ah. Curves I saw for TS (I think as tested by Jack, but I can't remember for sure) showed that the flat part of the curve for the 100ah cells went to 100ah and THEN dropped....


I think planning a pack for 2C continuous is a mistake, what's the fun to have an EV that only drives for 30 minutes? Pack should be planned for 1C or less cruising with acceleration less than 3C, IMHO.

Also, what's really important from the curves is how much total energy you get from the cell. Jack's bar graph shows TS cell dropping fast at 1C after 85%, but it also has a flat part at 3.0V at 1C, while TS chart claims 3.2V at 1C. IMHO this is significant difference, since total energy you get is multiple of current and voltage and time, so we need to compare the surface area under the curve between 2 cells at the same C rate to determine which one gives more energy back. Just comparing time or voltage alone is useless, need to compare all at once.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Just comparing time or voltage alone is useless, need to compare all at once.


yeah, back to the lack of an independent lab that could test all under same conditions.... even if the exact methodology isn't perfect it would help compare apples to apples!

Perhaps we can ask Jack to test the current TS, SE, and HiPower under similar conditions to show voltage/capacity at 3C for 100ah cells at least? Heck, I would chip in to PAY him to do it!


----------



## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Don't hold me to it, but I have been trying to work a deal with the battery lab here at the university to test some LiFePO4 cells I am getting from Chinese manufacturers. I visited TS when I was in Shenzhen 6 months ago and the current discharge specs. they told me seem somewhat higher than what the consensus here on the forum is. (10 C for 10 sec.) I am ordering samples of Sinoriching's LiFePO4s and would like to compare them to TS, SE, HiPower, and Headway. The specs. TS told me make it sound like you could race with them, but you guys using them seem to not be getting that performance out of them. Well, the battery engineer at the university said, "there are three kinds of liers, liers, damned liers, and battery manufacturers"....I think he was quoting Thomas Edison or somebody. Since I need batteries for the sports car I'm building I wish he was wrong.


----------



## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

Dave from EV Components mentioned in another thread that he's only sold one Hipower (HP) cell -- I'm the one.

I bought a 2009-era Hipower 100Ah cell, a 100Ah Sky Energy cell, and a 100Ah TS LiFeYPO4 cell in January to bench test and compare.

I've attached reports from the room-temperature constant-current discharges at 50A and 130A.

The test load and data logger is a West Mountain CBA II and it's partner 500W 'load amplifier'. Cables between the CBA amp and the cells are 24 inche long 2AWG. I was using the positive voltage sensing option - where a feedback wire is run from the CBA unit to the cell positive. The computer was running the Pro software which allows full calibration of voltage and current. While the CBA units are not calibrated to traceable standards, I did initial setup and cross-checking thru the tests with a Fluke 87 that is calibrated to NIST standards.

A quick visual inspection shows that the HP cell is taller and thinner and has fewer stiffening ribs on the case. The case itself appears less substantial and I'm able to deflect the side of the case with finger pressure. While the folks at both TS and SE cleaned the extra plastic away from the top seam, the HP cell has material proud of the plane of the ribs - it will take some clean-up to get the cells to fit against each other in a pack.

Internal resistance at 20ºC is just under three times higher for the HP cell compared with TS and SE.

I don't have any reason to believe that the information reported by HP is incorrect, and look forward to hearing how the new 100Ah cells perform.

Based on the case, discharge curves, and price of these cells, if I was in the market for a 1-3C cell, I'd go with SE.

Disclaimer...I have a business and import LiFePO4 cells from Taiwan. I don't consider products from these three companies competition for the 10C cells manufactured by Phoenix Silicon International.

Andy

www.rechargeablelithiumpower.com


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

that is FAB information..... did you do the same test at 3C? 5C?


----------



## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> that is FAB information..... did you do the same test at 3C? 5C?


Sorry, no. I'm limited to 140A discharge for a fully charged cell. That gives me plenty of room to verify the 10Ah PSI cells I normally work with (they pulse to 13C), but the game changes a bit with a 100Ah cell. 

Andy


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

AndyH said:


> ...the 10Ah PSI cells I normally work with (they pulse to 13C)


sounds like those cells would be pretty sweet for the drag racers with deep pockets that wanna dump 2k amps, eh!

On the slightly off topic of building banks of small cells.... how do you balance the charge in those suckers when they are in banks of parallel and serial bunches?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Eric has new Yttrium TS cells and they still sag much deeper than TS datasheets make us believe, so I am not sure what benefits Yttrium adds.


The LiFeYPo4 cells are 40% Yttrium, perhaps it is a cheaper, more abundant material to replace scarce Lithium?


----------



## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> sounds like those cells would be pretty sweet for the drag racers with deep pockets that wanna dump 2k amps, eh!
> 
> On the slightly off topic of building banks of small cells.... how do you balance the charge in those suckers when they are in banks of parallel and serial bunches?


When building the pack, parallel the cells first, then connect the parallel 'modules' in series. The parallel cells behave as a single larger 'cell' and can be managed by one BMS channel.

A cell is basically two plates smeared with 'special sauce' - keep adding them in parallel to increase capacity.

The hard-core guys like the A123 cells - though there are some 25C pouch cells being worked-over on E-S. The PSI cells do a great job in plug-in hybrids and in pure EVs but there are plenty of connections and the 10C continuous costs more.

Andy


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

etischer said:


> The LiFeYPo4 cells are 40% Yttrium, perhaps it is a cheaper, more abundant material to replace scarce Lithium?


I am really puzzled by this data. There is only 3% Lithium in my cells and 40% iron. I thought they were supposed to dope Lithium with Yttrium, which leads me to believe there should be very little Yttrium in the cell.

I don't pretend to understand the process behind making of Lithium cells, but somehow 40% Yttrium sounds wrong


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> The LiFeYPo4 cells are 40% Yttrium, perhaps it is a cheaper, more abundant material to replace scarce Lithium?


We are a long way from lithium being scarce, and it's still really cheap. Not to mention there isn't much lithium in a cell anyway.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I am really puzzled by this data. There is only 3% Lithium in my cells and 40% iron. I thought they were supposed to dope Lithium with Yttrium, which leads me to believe there should be very little Yttrium in the cell.
> 
> I don't pretend to understand the process behind making of Lithium cells, but somehow 40% Yttrium sounds wrong


The MSDS doesn't say if the composition is based on mass or volume. 
Mass of Yttrium = 89
Mass of Lithium = 7

So there might be more volume of lithium, but since it is so light there is more mass of Yttrium?


----------



## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

AndyH said:


> When building the pack, parallel the cells first, then connect the parallel 'modules' in series. The parallel cells behave as a single larger 'cell' and can be managed by one BMS channel.
> 
> A cell is basically two plates smeared with 'special sauce' - keep adding them in parallel to increase capacity.
> 
> ...


Andy,

Do you know where I might be able to buy A123 cells? Looking for better density than TS has but not sure if I want to spend allot on Kokam if I don't have too.

Jacob


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Take a look over at
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/


----------



## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Take a look over at www.endlessphere.com


I can't get the link to work, are you sure it's correct?


----------



## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Kelmark said:


> I can't get the link to work, are you sure it's correct?


Just look on ebay, A123's are all over.....the green ones are the newer cells.


----------



## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

pgt400 said:


> Just look on ebay, A123's are all over.....the green ones are the newer cells.


All I see are small cylindrical batteries, I was referring to 10AH and larger prismatic cells.


----------



## ahambone (Jan 13, 2009)

There is a user over on the endless-sphere.com forums called "cell_man". He has access to the A123 pouch cells. (somewhere in the 12/16/20 ish AHr sizes). I don't know what he's charging for them and so far I think he is the only source to get them from. They've got a bunch of discussions regarding their assembly into packs and testing here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15408

and here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15942

Cheers,
--Adam


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I can't get the link to work, are you sure it's correct?


This is the proper link, you need the dash and the /forums/ to get where you want to be.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/


----------



## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

ahambone said:


> There is a user over on the endless-sphere.com forums called "cell_man". He has access to the A123 pouch cells. (somewhere in the 12/16/20 ish AHr sizes). I don't know what he's charging for them and so far I think he is the only source to get them from. They've got a bunch of discussions regarding their assembly into packs and testing here:
> 
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15408
> 
> ...


Thanks, I am guessing that by buying them in this back door way means that there wont be warrenties? I'll check it out but just want to make sure I am not getting ripped off, it's allot of money.


----------



## ahambone (Jan 13, 2009)

The conservative architect in me still says that these cells should be considered "experimental" until an official VAR is carrying them. 

Cheers,
--Adam


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry about the bad link


----------



## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow, looks like the Sky Energy cells may be the way to go. Anyone else have comparative data?


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

Here's your A123 cell test data, 20Ah cell
How many u want ?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

FalconEV,
???? what exactly are you showing?


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

The A123 flat 20Ah cell


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> The A123 flat 20Ah cell


ok, but what are you showing with the meter? and what is the price? How do the performance specs compared with all the graphs we've seen for TS, and SE cells?

...and perhaps you can say a little about the pros/cons of buying pouches and building your own 'cells', versus buying the typical TS cell in it's own shell.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well we know that A123 cells are far superior to TS or SE, capable of 30C and more. They also cost quite a bit more. On his site Falcon is showing a 20ah cell for $70, $20 more than you can find them elsewhere. At least Falcon is consistent, charging more than others do for the same product.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> ok, but what are you showing with the meter?


Internal cell resistance I assume.


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

Yes, i dont want to say much as I sell these.
If you can get them for $50, delivered...great, I have not seen anyone do it so far consistently.
Hard to be consistent when there's no $ incentive to do so at $50.
I make bigger - 100 Ah, 120Ah - cells from these
not as easy as you might think.
Those who prefer not to tinker around themselves looking for the bottom dollar are the ones who contact me.
But, For a 100 cell qty, minimum, I'll give a discount on them, $60 each i guess, delivered direct, then, your on your own.


----------



## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> Here's your A123 cell test data, 20Ah cell
> How many u want ?


What temperature was the cell when you checked internal resistance? What was cell state of charge? How long has the cell rested at that temperature after being charged and/or discharged? Is the milliohmmeter calibrated?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> I make bigger - 100 Ah, 120Ah - cells from these
> not as easy as you might think.
> Those who prefer not to tinker around themselves looking for the bottom dollar are the ones who contact me.
> But, For a 100 cell qty, minimum, I'll give a discount on them, $60 each i guess, delivered direct, then, your on your own.


If you're selling assembled cells for the equivalent of $70 per cell including shipping then that is a good price. I thought it was just for a bare cell and didn't include shipping. Do you have examples of your cell assemblies?


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

For those who dont know, AndyH is a veteran of the ES forum.
I suggest if u want stats, you contact "cell-man".
I only posted to let others know of another source.
calibrated ??? is that a sandwich ?


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> Yes, i dont want to say much as I sell these.
> I make bigger - 100 Ah, 120Ah - cells from these
> not as easy as you might think.


hhhmmm, well, to me a reseller that doesn't want to say much may not sell much?!

I would like to know more about why it is/isn't hard to build 'cells' from the pouches. After all, this IS a DIY forum, right!


D


----------



## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> For those who dont know, AndyH is a veteran of the ES forum.


As were you. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16125 



FalconEV said:


> I suggest if u want stats, you contact "cell-man". I only posted to let others know of another source.


Are you buying these from cell-man?



FalconEV said:


> calibrated ??? is that a sandwich ?


You're kidding, right?

I have a pair of HP 4328A milliohmmeters in the shop - one calibrated and one not. Guess which one I trust?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I would like to know more about why it is/isn't hard to build 'cells' from the pouches. After all, this IS a DIY forum, right!
> 
> 
> D


You really should check out the endless-sphere links, everything you want to know about these cells and pack building. Good tab connections are not as easy as you might think.


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

I dont want to make a big deal of this
They are for sale as stated each.
I get them direct thru my chinese agent.
I make bigger cells for those wanting such $300/100Ah
Of course the meter is calibrated..
lab pics are on my website
I am just a source.
http://www.falconev.com/EE-LAB.html


----------



## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Eric has new Yttrium TS cells and they still sag much deeper than TS datasheets make us believe, so I am not sure what benefits Yttrium adds.
> 
> My pack will be a Frankenstein since I will not throw away weak cells, I will parallel them in pairs and then add HP cells in series. My weak cells work fine up to 2C, so in pairs they should exceed other cells. I am also gaining 1 cell in the process, to get a 41 cell pack. This will add a little capacity without having to ship Zivan charger for reprogramming. My Zivan is 152V max, which is 3.8V per cell for 40 cells, after upgrade it will be 3.7V per cell, which is still very good charge level. I am gaining 2.5% capacity at the cost of 63 lb of additional weight. Should be a fun project


 What's with this cell's now dimitri?
Do you have some info for us? Did you get some samples? When?
I'm interested to see comparison.
Have fun!


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

zwmaster said:


> What's with this cell's now dimitri?
> Do you have some info for us? Did you get some samples? When?
> I'm interested to see comparison.
> Have fun!


I wired the money to Hipower last week and according to Kevin my cells are being shipped to Tampa. I should be getting tracking information soon. According to Kevin the shipping company will call me when cells arrive to Tampa, which might be couple of weeks I suppose. I never bought anything direct from China before, so I am not familiar with the process and not sure what to expect at this point. I hope Kevin comes thru on his promises.


----------



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

That right, cells will be shipped by sea, it takes some times, when I got shipping info I would soonly sent to dimitri. Best Regards from Kevin


----------



## speedy6963 (Mar 2, 2010)

any update on the hipower cells ?



dimitri said:


> I wired the money to Hipower last week and according to Kevin my cells are being shipped to Tampa. I should be getting tracking information soon. According to Kevin the shipping company will call me when cells arrive to Tampa, which might be couple of weeks I suppose. I never bought anything direct from China before, so I am not familiar with the process and not sure what to expect at this point. I hope Kevin comes thru on his promises.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

speedy6963 said:


> any update on the hipower cells ?


My cells are still in route. Kevin provided me a copy of Bill Of Lading, which is a proof that cells were placed on a boat and now in the hands of the shipping company. Now I am waiting for them to arrive in US and clear customs.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

dimitri said:


> My cells are still in route. Kevin provided me a copy of Bill Of Lading, which is a proof that cells were placed on a boat and now in the hands of the shipping company. Now I am waiting for them to arrive in US and clear customs.


You shouldn't have it shipped by sea. This takes too long.

When I purchase something from China or the US I always pay more for FedEX, TNT or DHL. The customs procedure goes smoother and the shipment arrives within days. 

A ocean freight can take months


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> You shouldn't have it shipped by sea. This takes too long.
> 
> When I purchase something from China or the US I always pay more for FedEX, TNT or DHL. The customs procedure goes smoother and the shipment arrives within days.
> 
> A ocean freight can take months


yeah... but for a load of batteries, what's the difference in the cost of shipping via boat versus DHL ?!


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> yeah... but for a load of batteries, what's the difference in the cost of shipping via boat versus DHL ?!


Rule of thumb: *3


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Rule of thumb: *3


which is why most of us are willing to wait for the boat.  A couple bucks for small items is not a problem, but $400 versus $1200 to deliver a set of batteries is a bit much.


----------



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

Shipping by UPS or by boat is nearly the same if small quality,
Like 4 pcs of 200AH cells, by air only cost about 235 USD,
weight is about 35kg. and they offer door to door service.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hipowerkevin said:


> Shipping by UPS or by boat is nearly the same if small quality,
> Like 4 pcs of 200AH cells, by air only cost about 235 USD,
> weight is about 35kg. and they offer door to door service.


but what about a PACK of 38? 

or a shipping container for a group buy....


----------



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> but what about a PACK of 38?
> 
> or a shipping container for a group buy....


Maybe simply 235/35*38= 255 , I am not too sure about this, 
and if weight over 45KG, could be cheaper, but need clearance, only send cargo at airport.

Air fee is mainly depends on weight.


----------



## hipowerkevin (Jan 14, 2010)

AndyH said:


> Dave from EV Components mentioned in another thread that he's only sold one Hipower (HP) cell -- I'm the one.
> 
> I bought a 2009-era Hipower 100Ah cell, a 100Ah Sky Energy cell, and a 100Ah TS LiFeYPO4 cell in January to bench test and compare.
> 
> ...


Hello AndyH,

I am sorry you got the Capacity type, the old type one, offer 1C continous, not the power type, the new power type is offer 3C continous


----------

