# Help setting up our charger / BMS?



## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

Hello all,
I am in need of a lot of help in setting up our charger / BMS system.

We have:
48 100ah Thunder Sky Batteries
Zivan 115 volt charger
Elithion - Lithiummate BMS
1K Zilla Controller 

The setup info is found here http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/index.php and we have gotten as far as installing the cell boards and creating three banks of 16 batteries. Now its like we've hit a brick wall and have know idea where to go from here.

Thanks,
Charlie


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I have the same BMS and controller, but a different charger (Manzanita PFC40m).

1) Figure out how the BMS will prevent over-discharging - I did this by using the LLIM signal as the ground connection to my +ve contactor. The +ve connection to the +ve contactor is the "main cont coil" output from the Zilla. The -ve contactor uses V+ and FLT wires (in my case although this will differ depending on where your charger is located). If you have a resisitive POT/throttle, you can also use DCL (discharge current limit) to limit your throttle (instead of just shutting down if a cell gets too low).

2) Figure out how the BMS will prevent over-charging. This will be charger dependant, but generally will use HLIM (for bang-bang control) and possibly CCL (for continuous regulation).

3) Think through your current measurements, what happens when there are faults, indicators/metering, safety features, protection of wires (fusing etc...), fans, battery heaters, etc... carefully.

The best source of information (IMO) is from the Elithion site - they have extensive manuals on different charger connections, controllers etc... 

It is important to look at many examples/instructions, figure out how they work, and adapt it to your specific situation (do not blindly copy/paste anything). The same schematic is rarely directly applicable, as there are many ways of doing things (position of contactors, if/where a DC/DC converter is used...

Next, I would suggest getting familiar with some good CAD software, draw up a wiring diagram, then post it in your build thread, asking politely for reviews...


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

1) Over discharging shouldn't I just let the Zilla controller handle this by setting the LBV setting in the battery menu?

2) Over charging: when I ordered the zivan charger it was programed for 48x 100 ah cells to charge to 3.8 volts. So doesn't the charger handle this so it doesn't over charge?

I was thinking the BMS just kept the single cells from over charging?

So I'm thinking: 
1) Zilla control discharge protection by setting the LBV.
2) Zivan charger control protect over charging (its pre programed to charge to Um: 3.8 volts)
3) BMS simply keeps cells even.

Am I thinking on the right track here?

Charlie


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## gravelydude (Sep 6, 2008)

Isn't someone going to help Charlie out here?? He and his partner in crime have entertained many with their you-tube videos, including myself. There has to be somebody out there that can help with their configuration (unfortunately it's not me -- a man has got to know his limitations!!) 

JACK


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

gravelydude said:


> Isn't someone going to help Charlie out here?? He and his partner in crime have entertained many with their you-tube videos, including myself. There has to be somebody out there that can help with their configuration (unfortunately it's not me -- a man has got to know his limitations!!)
> 
> JACK


I'm sorry for not being direct help, but just wanted to point out that:

1. When buying complex and expensive system, make sure you understand it and have skills to use it.

2. When having issues, contact product support rather than ( or in addition to ) public forum.

3. Using Elithion for balancing only is like using laptop as a hammer. Why bother paying for sophisticated system if you not going use its features.

I am biased on the subject since I offer competitive BMS system, so please take my feedback with a grain of salt


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> 1) Over discharging shouldn't I just let the Zilla controller handle this by setting the LBV setting in the battery menu?


no. elithion is cell level LVC. Zilla is pack level. You want cell level.



> 2) Over charging: when I ordered the zivan charger it was programed for 48x 100 ah cells to charge to 3.8 volts. So doesn't the charger handle this so it doesn't over charge?


No, it handles PACK LEVEL. Not cell level. Its still charging in series and one cell could potentially go to 4.0V. You need cell level OVC.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

frodus is bang on (as usual):

You need the BMS to shut down the Zilla if any cell is below its critical minimal level (even if the entire pack is within range) - otherwise you will damage a cell. 

Similarly the BMS needs to shut down the charger if any cell is above a critical maximum level (even if the entire pack is within range) - otherwise you will damage a cell.

As mentioned earlier, it is possible to have the BMS limit the throttle on the Zilla as a cell voltage approaches its low level (instead of just disabling the throttle altogether) - this is documented if you use the resistive throttle pot - it likely is possible if you use the HEPA throttle, although this is not documented (and I would like to know how to do this too!).

The Elithion site has some great information and worth digging into - for example the Zivan/Elithion interface is documented here:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/zivan.php


You will probably learn lots by digging through their manual (I did) and probably end up agreeing with what they have documented... It is defintely complicated, but this goes along with the BMSs flexibility to do just about anything you want/need. Lots of reading to do!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It is possible to have the BMS pull the Zilla into "valet" mode with entirely different settings. If you set up valet with a lower current limit and a higher minimum pack voltage it should work well with the BMS to protect the pack


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

dimitri said:


> I'm sorry for not being direct help, but just wanted to point out that:
> 
> 1. When buying complex and expensive system, make sure you understand it and have skills to use it.
> 
> ...


I thought this was a DIY (Do it yourself) forum not a electric engineer club.
Forgive the caveman in the room but some laptops work much better as hammers. 

I am trying to get help from the distributors as well. But thought that someone might have been through this setup and would be willing to share there knowledge and not just be using a public forum to sell there product.

Charlie


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

mcrickman said:


> ... and not just be using a public forum to sell there product.
> 
> Charlie


That was uncalled for. I've been sharing all my knowledge here for 2 years. Perhaps I shoud have stayed away from this thread since clearly my remark was taken as hostile. I didn't mean it that way. Good luck with your project, sincerely.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> I thought this was a DIY (Do it yourself) forum not a electric engineer club.


You need some technical knowledge if you want to design a working system. We're not sure of your background, you've got 25 posts and we have no clue of where you're coming from. You chose the full featured system, expect to do some research and design work. From your comments it apears that you don't really have a full understanding of what you need to get where you want to go. I can tell that you don't fully know what this BMS does, or how it protects the batteries. 

I deal with many customers of the elithion system (I was hired by them earlier this year to provide technical assistance). *From the looks of it*, you installed the boards, didn't read the information on the elithion website and came here for an easy answer. The information is there, you just have to read. 90% or more of the help I give to customers comes straight from the elithion website. In fact, there's a WHOLE SECTION devoted to integrating the zilla and elithion:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/zilla.php
and another WHOLE SECTION on how to integrate the Zivan to the elithion:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/zivan.php



> Forgive the caveman in the room but some laptops work much better as hammers.


Instead of using it as a hammer, use your "laptop" to search on the elithion website:
http://liionbms.com/php/index.php
and on DIY:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/search.php



> I am trying to get help from the distributors as well. But thought that someone might have been through this setup and would be willing to share there knowledge and not just be using a public forum to sell there product.


And you SHOULD be getting help from the distributors. They're the ones that are supposed to be familiar with this system enough to know how to wire it up. But I don't expect them to hold your hand the whole way through either. It sounds like you ordered a bunch of parts without much of a schematic designed before you started the project.

People have been through this setup, its documented online, on my website as well as several others. 

And if you think all dimitri is doing is promoting his product, I'd like to let you know that he's been a forum member longer than I can remember, BEFORE his product was even in existance. Abd I didn't see any mention of trying to sell a product, he just told you where he's coming from on all this. He knows more than MANY people do about BMS, I'd be inclined to listen to him.

NOTE: I do not sell elithion, but I support their products and have purchased one for my own use. I also work for Manzanita, and support their products as well.


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

This is what I have come up with as far as the high voltage goes.
I'm not sure if the current sensor in located in the correct place though.
Should it be before or after where the charger negative ties in?

Charlie


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

which sensor? do you have a high current sensor and a charger sensor?

is it like this:
http://liionbms.com/php/2CS0xx0K.php

or this:
http://liionbms.com/php/2CS00xxL.php


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

It's the high current sensor 2CS0xx0K series. I did not receive a inline sensor when I got the BMS. Not sure if I need one or not but if I do I will order one.

Charlie


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Put the high current sensor on the positive battery terminal pointing away from the pack, or on the negative battery terminal pointing towards the pack. This goes on the high current wires, not the charger. Your charger will not be on while current is flowing to the controller.

Just make sure you observe current direction and you'll be fine. You won't fry anything if you don't, but it'll display negative current.


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

So this current sensor is used when discharging the pack.

Thanks, for the help.
Charlie


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes, discharge/regen only.


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## gravelydude (Sep 6, 2008)

Charlie,

You really owe Dimitri an apology. You have a great conversion, and have documented a lot of it in a humorous, entertaining form on YouTube; but most of us converting cars would be lost without people like Dimitri and others on this site and on EVDL. I know that I would be. Just my two cents No offense meant to anyone. That's just how I feel.....

JACK


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

mcrickman said:


> Hello all,
> I am in need of a lot of help in setting up our charger / BMS system.
> ...
> Elithion - Lithiummate BMS


Your request was a month ago, but I just saw it; sorry.

Did you get the help you needed? If not, we're paying Travis Gintz to help people who were left stranded by the demise of EV Components. Details here:
http://liionbms.com/php/tech_support.php
Take advantage of it.

Davide
________
Medigap Forum


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

mcrickman said:


> It's the high current sensor 2CS0xx0K series. I did not receive a inline sensor when I got the BMS. Not sure if I need one or not but if I do I will order one.
> 
> Charlie


If you have a "fuel gauge" to measure SOC, you may need 2 current sensors - I have the 600 amp external current sensor for the load (Zilla) and a second 50 amp current sensor for the source (charger). There is approximately 1% error in the current measurement - with a single 600 amp sensor, you would get 6 amps error while charging and your SOC measurements would be inaccurate.


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

gdirwin said:


> If you have a "fuel gauge" to measure SOC, you may need 2 current sensors - I have the 600 amp external current sensor for the load (Zilla) and a second 50 amp current sensor for the source (charger). There is approximately 1% error in the current measurement - with a single 600 amp sensor, you would get 6 amps error while charging and your SOC measurements would be inaccurate.


Thanks for the information this is one of the questions I had. I thought I was going to have to buy another one to replace the one that came with the BMS
because there's no way a 2/0 cable will go through it my bus bar was even to wide to fit. Luckly I found a 1/4" copper plate and custom made a bar that would work. Do you have a part number on that 50amp current sensor?

My car is setup so that the batteries are in the rear with the charger and Zilla controller is up front. I have the hairball mounted on the firewall about a 18" away from the controller. I'm doing everything I can to keep the noise down. So with a shielded cable maybe I'll be ok.

Charlie


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Charlie:

The Elithion parts list is here:
http://lithiumate.elithion.com/php/parts.php 

It is a Tamura L03S050D15 - the datasheet is here:
http://www.tamuracorp.com/clientuploads/pdfs/engineeringdocs/L03SXXXD15.pdf

I bought mine from Mouser - also be sure to buy the connectors, wire crimps and shielded cable. If you buy from an Elithion re-seller, I think they sell it as a kit, with all of the above.

The 50 amp sensor is a good match for my PFC40M charger (40 amps). I have an odd problem where the charge current shows up with a slow oscillation - if there is 8 amps going in on average, it will vary from 7 to 10 on the BMS monitor - not sure what is causing this yet, but it seems okay (the SOC relies on the average anyway).

For my 600 amp sensor, I used the copper mounting busbar that came with my TS cells - I narrowed them a little to fit into the sensor hole. I initially split the bus into 2 (1000 amp controller is more than 600 amp sensor) and installed the current sensor around one of them, and planned to double the measured current in software - unfortunately the Elithion gain only goes up to 255, and I needed to enter 150*2 (there is no fix for this!). Davide said the sensor was good for more than 700 amps, and the actual battery draw will be less than the 1000 amp motor draw, so I put the full current through 1 sensor and it seems okay so far. It may be necessary to buy a bigger sensor, but this seems to be the biggest Tamura sells - this means the Elthion system cannot be used with high current controllers and 1000 amps is the limit... I guess the Z2K controllers are only used by racers who don't need to worry about SOC...

Garth


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## mcrickman (Sep 10, 2007)

Garth, on your cells that sit on the batteries do they get warm? When I had them installed they were warm and I was a little weary of that. I really don't want to burn the house down and die while charging at night. 

I've been told by the better half I can't reinstall the BMS until our current system fails. But I'm still taking notes on how to reinstall the BMS.

Charlie


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

No - they do not get even warm during charging or driving... It may be from your balancing resistors though... The Elithion will turn on fans if they get too hot - so far they have not turned on.

If you see high temperatures, I would check individual battery terminals and look for a loose one. Even if they are initially tight, they can loosen after the first few drives.

Another factor is the cleanliness of the connectors - I lightly sanded the face of the battery terminals, BMS crimp connections and the crimp connectors (to remove oxidation) - even the new copper busbars. Then put some Noalox on each surface, SS washers, lock-washers and then torque them down with a torque wrench.

Also be aware that with some TS cells, people have complained that the depth of the threads were inconsistent - even if you torque them, they could be bottoming out and not tightening properly - any of the above can cause excess heat which would be higher under high-current conditions. See here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...rsky-owners-check-your-connections-41640.html

Keep posting your findings!


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