# [EVDL] The EPA ratings for the Nissan Leaf



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

EPA rating for NIssan Leaf:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissan-leaf-epa-ratings-released/

I am confused about some of the numbers coming out of the EPA ratings for
the
Nissan Leaf. I was always under the assumption that most EV cars would use
about 80%
of the battery capacity. The Leaf's battery is 24 KWH, so that would be
about 19.2 KWH
used.

The EPA rating is 34 KWH/100 miles, or 2.94 miles/KWH. If we assume a 10%
charging loss,
then we get 3.27 miles/KWH. Since the range is expected to be 73 miles that
works out
to 22.3 KWH used which is 93% of the available 24 KWH. Even we assume a 12%
charging loss,
we get 3.34 mile/KWH or 21.86 KWH used which is 91% of the available 24 KWH.

So is Nissan actually using 90-93% of the available battery, or are the EPA
numbers
suspect?

-- Larry



-- 
Larry Gales
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is it possible that the 24kWh number is the usable amount rather than 100%?


-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ...
> > So is Nissan actually using 90-93% of the available battery, or are the EPA
> > numbers
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> > Is it possible that the 24kWh number is the usable amount rather than 100%?
> 
> I THINK that that is the case. Nissan has not been forthcoming with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,

> EPA rating for NIssan Leaf:
> http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-nissan-leaf-epa-ratings-released/
> 
> I am confused about some of the numbers coming out of the EPA ratings for
> the
> Nissan Leaf. I was always under the assumption that most EV cars would use
> about 80%
> of the battery capacity. The Leaf's battery is 24 KWH, so that would be
> about 19.2 KWH
> used.
> 
> The EPA rating is 34 KWH/100 miles, or 2.94 miles/KWH. If we assume a 10%
> charging loss,
> then we get 3.27 miles/KWH. Since the range is expected to be 73 miles that
> works out
> to 22.3 KWH used which is 93% of the available 24 KWH. Even we assume a 12%
> charging loss,
> we get 3.34 mile/KWH or 21.86 KWH used which is 91% of the available 24 KWH.
> 
> So is Nissan actually using 90-93% of the available battery, or are the EPA
> numbers
> suspect?

They are using 95% of the 24kWh:

http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf-116-mile-range.html

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Neil, that was really helpful. I winder if the EPA is being super
cautious about the range?

-- Larry

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 4:22 AM, Neil Blanchard


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Thanks Neil, that was really helpful. I winder if the EPA is being sup=
> er
> > cautious about the range?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My first posting and apologies in advance if I'm confused, reinventing the
wheel, and excessively wordy ... please bear with me -

The purpose of the EPA stickers is to give consumers some standardized idea
of what it costs to drive a vehicle, considering only energy ("fuel"). To
this end the EPA has spent a fortune designing models which attempt to
simulate how a 'typical' consumer drives and how a vehicle behaves in those
driving conditions. 

Utilizing the same EPA standard drive cycle and since cost is the
motivation, I contend that there are only three variables which should be
considered when comparing "fuel" consumption performance amongst vehicles
using disparate energy sources: ENERGY QUANTITY, ENERGY COST, and DISTANCE,
measured by gallons or litres from the pump and kilowatt-hours out of an
EVSE, $/gallon or $/litre and $/KWHr for that "fuel", and miles or
kilometers for distance driven. Although I recognize the various conversions
amongst energy units, since the purpose of the EPA sticker is to compare
"fuel" consumption COSTS, I contend that $$ paid by the consumer is the
reasonable common denominator yielding an apples-to-apples comparison.

Upstream or downstream energy costs (be it electricity generation or liquid
fuel production) and recovery benefits and all the associated social,
political, production, transportation, tax-related, health-related, etc.,
costs and benefits, although important and worthy of separate discussion, I
believe to be irrelevant when discussing out-of-pocket expenses for the
"fuel" to drive a vehicle.

For standardization, I accept whatever drive cycle the EPA wants to put out
there, recognizing that a hypermiler can very easily beat the current
gasoline ratings and that judicious use of regen could also have a
significant effect on extending an EVs range.

The Leaf EPA sticker says 34KWHrs per hundred miles. They also say 99mpg
equivalent combined city and highway (106mpg city and 92mpg highway).

I presume that is 34KWHr out of the EVSE (thus taking into account all the
vehicle's subsystem's inefficiences), and that regeneration has been
optimized. Although I personally think this number is high, for argument's
sake, let's accept it.

Now, in Northern California the PG&E E-9 EV rate is around $0.06/KWHr
(http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/about/rates/rateinfo/rateoptions/res/e-9.pdf).
Today's typical gas-pump cost here is $3.20/gallon.

Using these simple numbers, here's what I get:

34KWHr/100miles x $0.06/KWHr = $2.04 per hundred miles "fuel" cost for Leaf

Fuel cost equivalency conversion: $2.04/100mi x 1Gallon/$3.20 =
0.6375Gal/100mi

Inverting this, 100mi/0.6375gal = 157 miles/gallon.

Tables could easily be produced for other values of liquid fuel and KWHr
cost.

How did the EPA arrive at their 99mpg "equivalent" for the Leaf?

JoeS.





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Joe,

Nice first post. I think the main root of the discrepancy likely is what is
assumed for the cost per kWh of electric. I expect the EPA used some
national average, and likely not strictly night time rates, assuming not all
charging would be done then. I also wonder how they accounted for
differences between winter and summer, like stiffer drive train and cabin
heating in winter. If you give a different weight to each of the variables
you get quite different numbers. I think that is what makes it so difficult
for them.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-EPA-ratings-for-the-Nissan-Leaf-tp3061207p3062075.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My understanding of the way EPA calculates MPGE is that they consider the 
energy content of gasoline vs a kWh of electricity. The relative cost 
doesn't enter the picture. 

I suppose they could add a second figure for MPGE based on national energy 
cost averages. Thing is, energy costs vary from month to month and from 
place to place, so I'm not sure it would be accurate enough to provide 
really valid comparisons for any time or area.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,
That way the numbers do not change as prices vary for electrical power
or gasoline but it does little to help my PRO EV arguments, unless I do the
Dollar equivalency calculations each time I make a presentation. Of course
with the price of gasoline and diesel rising so rapidly it makes my results
better each month than the previous. Also doing the calculations as part of
the presentation, adds extra credibility to my statements.
Regards, (I can rant about
fuel prices.)
Dennis Miles
------------------------------------------------------------------------


> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > My understanding of the way EPA calculates MPGE is that they consider the
> > energy content of gasoline vs a kWh of electricity. The relative cost
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Larry,

I think the EPA is using heat and cooling at various parts of their test? If you drive a Leaf, it would make sense to do those things while charging; right before you leave on a drive, so that it doesn't affect the pack as much. And good ecodriving takes practice; and keeping good energy logs is good incentive, as well.

> Thanks Neil, that was really helpful. I winder if the EPA is being super
> cautious about the range?

>> They are using 95% of the 24kWh:
>> 
>> http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf-116-mile-range.html

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Joe,

> I presume that is 34KWHr out of the EVSE (thus taking into account all the
> vehicle's subsystem's inefficiences), and that regeneration has been
> optimized. Although I personally think this number is high, for argument's
> sake, let's accept it.

They do not say that you can consume 34kWh in one charge, and at that rate of consumption (340Wh/mile) it would take about 1 1/2 charges to go the 100 miles -- which is fair lousy driving, really. The 116 mile drive was doing just 196Wh/mile, and Nissan has said that you can go 138 miles at ~35mph on level ground without any heat or A/C (if my memory serves me!). That abstemious kind of driving would be under 166Wh/mile (24kWh x 95% = 22.8kWh net).

So, a huge range of consumption is possible, with the heat being the worst way to use up power. I'll most folks will do around 200-250Wh/mile? Which is ~91-114 miles range.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you all for your responses. I'm tending to think the EPA rating of the
Leaf is a pretty pessimistic scenario rather than what an astute EV driver
will achieve. We'll soon find out and hopefully the early adopters are not
lead-footers 



> tomw wrote:
> > ...I expect the EPA used some national average...
> 
> Agree, as they've also assigned a figure of $561 for what they call Annual
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't really like the way the EPA sticker works. You *can't* extract
33.7kwh of power from a gallon of gas and use it all in an EV or ICE car,
there are fundamental differences between how an EV receives its energy and
vice versa. (preaching to the choir I know ...)

(think of using a generator to charge your EV, you'll see between 45-60mpg,
but if you use MPGe math, it will be different,
and if that 33.7kwh is generated at a power station, its going to be
different, worse, again)

I am currently attempting to nail down an analysis of both, primarily to see
the differences in emissions lbs/co2 per mile (gasoline vs coal fired plant)
its pretty hard, has anyone seen a definitive attempt ?

This one is fairly good:
http://theeestory.com/topics/5607

But I still think it falls short.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The bottom line for the Leaf is actual range. If the Leaf only gets 50
miles with normal driving, it will be a dud. If the Leaf gets close to
100 miles range, it will be a winner.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 28 Nov 2010 at 5:01, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > That way the numbers do not change as prices vary for electrical power or
> > gasoline but it does little to help my PRO EV arguments ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hymers wrote:
> 
> > (think of using a generator to charge your EV, you'll see between
> > 45-60mpg,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,

> I don't really like the way the EPA sticker works. You *can't* extract
> 33.7kwh of power from a gallon of gas and use it all in an EV or ICE car,
> there are fundamental differences between how an EV receives its energy and
> vice versa. 

Yes, but there is a mathematical equivalency -- a gallon of (typical) gasoline has the same number of BTU's as the 33.7kWh of electricity. That's it -- you do not need to *actually* convert the gasoline to electricity, or vis versa -- it is an equivalency! Gasoline doesn't just materialize out of thin air, either.

> I am currently attempting to nail down an analysis of both, primarily to see
> the differences in emissions lbs/co2 per mile (gasoline vs coal fired plant)
> its pretty hard, has anyone seen a definitive attempt ?
> 
> This one is fairly good:
> http://theeestory.com/topics/5607
> 
> But I still think it falls short.

If you find it, please do tell us! There are several large omissions in that analysis; on both sides of the equation:

Oil has to be found first, and drilled and transported and stored and refined and stored and transported, etc. Materials and energy used *all* through this process should be counted; not just refinement. Extraction is not trivial, and things like drilling mud take a lot of energy to produce.

If you measure the power used to charge the car, then why do you need to measure anything "inside" the car system? Charge the car, drive it, and then measure what it takes to charge it again; just like measuring fuel economy on an ICE vehicle.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> If you find it, please do tell us! There are several large omissions in
> that analysis; on both sides of the equation:
>
> Oil has to be found first, and drilled and transported and stored and
> refined and stored and transported, etc. Materials and energy used *all*
> through this process should be counted; not just refinement. Extraction is
> not trivial, and things like drilling mud take a lot of energy to produce.
>
>
As does coal have to be mined and transported, I really am aware there are
un-ending tails to all energy sources, I cannot find a good way of
quantifying the energy used to drill oil, refine gasoline (12kwhr of
electricity, 80% from co-generation ??), mine coal, build a wind turbine /
PV cell etc etc etc etc.

MPGe is a good starting point, my approach with a gasoline generator (as it
turns out is hideously flawed, thanks Roger  was a stab in the dark trying
to attain an mpg figure Joe Schmo can relate to.

All of my thinking about this topic is only leading me to one conclusion,
despite the multiple reasons for building an EV, I am pretty much convinced
that MY ev truck, having not been built yet, having a projected efficiency
of between 400-500(?) wh/mile is going to emit a fair amount more co2 when
charged with coal than simply driving my car. I have yet to find, after
months of searching, any data that will definitively tell me different.

I want to get off oil as a transportation fuel, but for many questioners
that simply isn't enough, it always comes back to vehicle emissions and it
is driving me NUTS because I have a 50-50 chance of my juice coming from
coal or nat gas (2 closest plants)

<insert unknowns here> 19lbs co2 / gallon of gas (avg) <1.77lbs per kwh> -
into something 16% efficient <insert unknowns here>
<insert unknowns here> 2.128 lbs co2 / kwh from coal (avg - Mountain census
division) - into something 80% efficient <insert unknowns here>

I'm pretty passionate about refuting the long tailpipe theory and I found a
document that I think is a must read, but still points towards a painful
truth:
Argonne National Labs report on the well to wheels for
plugins/hybrids/bevs/ICEs
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/629.PDF

Figure ES.1 shows quite nicely that the "US Average" energy mix supports the
view that EV's do emit less co2, but what about those of us in coal
intensive regions ? (get PV ... what if you don't live in Southwest like me
? 

People that want to promote EVs need to cover all the bases, and this one is
a frequent point of questioning I'm sure, I really want to get to the bottom
of it.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Note that CO2 is NOT a LOCAL pollutant: unlike CO, it does not matter much
if you increase CO2 in New jersey, if you reduce it in California. For CO2
(unless you are talking about amounts of CO2 way beyond what were are
considering), it is only the TOTAL amount of CO2 in the air/oceans that
matters.

-- Larry Gales



> Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > If you find it, please do tell us! There are several large omissions in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ehhh, are you saying that your own generator does
better than the local power company's massive
(and optimized) machines?
That would surprise me...

Now only to find a way to steer this back to EVs...

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:16 AM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The EPA ratings for the Nissan Leaf




> Dave Hymers wrote:
> 
> > (think of using a generator to charge your EV, you'll see between
> > 45-60mpg, but if you use MPGe math, it will be different, and if that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I apologize for the generator estimates, Roger set me straight on that. I
guess I found a figure of 65% cited about an experimental turbine generator
being cited as its "best" possible figure, it certainly isn't one you can
buy at Sams Club ... so my figures where irrelevant.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 29 Nov 2010 at 17:03, Dave Hymers wrote:
> 
> > I am pretty much convinced that MY ev truck, having not been built yet,
> > having a projected efficiency of between 400-500(?) wh/mile is going to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 29 Nov 2010 at 17:03, Dave Hymers wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"Tom Hudson's answer to this was to put PV on his rooftop. (Only one
> example; there are others who have done something similar.) "

Mine too. A 5.6kW array powers both the house, except for space heating,
and about 50 miles/day on average for the car. I consider the coal-fired
plant argument just a self-justification to do nothing.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-EPA-ratings-for-the-Nissan-Leaf-tp3061207p3065589.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Mine too. A 5.6kW array powers both the house, except for space heating,
> and about 50 miles/day on average for the car. I consider the coal-fired
> plant argument just a self-justification to do nothing.


I said in another post >it will NOT stop me from building my EV<
I simply want to learn more about arguments surrounding the numbers of Co2
emissions from coal per EV mile so I can explain it to people that ask me
and possibly stop other people from doing nothing.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello

>> 
>> If you find it, please do tell us! There are several large omissions in
>> that analysis; on both sides of the equation:
>> 
>> Oil has to be found first, and drilled and transported and stored and
>> refined and stored and transported, etc. Materials and energy used *all*
>> through this process should be counted; not just refinement. Extraction is
>> not trivial, and things like drilling mud take a lot of energy to produce.

> As does coal have to be mined and transported, I really am aware there are
> un-ending tails to all energy sources, I cannot find a good way of
> quantifying the energy used to drill oil, refine gasoline (12kwhr of
> electricity, 80% from co-generation ??), mine coal, build a wind turbine /
> PV cell etc etc etc etc.

In the latest "Fully Charged" with Robert Llewellyn & Rory Reid, they discussed this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtBmojIOzg

The conclusion is that a typical EV in the UK emits 40-80gm per km (they have ~42% generation from coal vs ~52% for the US), depending on when you charge, and where you are getting the power from. This includes the mining, transport, generation, disposal of the waste, and transmission losses.

And if you use 100% coal generation (say in China?), then an EV would emit about 100gm/km. Robert references a Royal Academy estimate that a gasoline car emits about 3X more than what is contained in the gasoline, so that puts most gasoline powered car in the 300-500gm/km range. By my count, it takes 8 energy consumption steps to make electricity from coal, and 18 steps for gasoline:

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/oil-is-finite-electricity-is-infinite.html

So, even if your truck EV gets a high as 500Wh/mile (which seems pretty pessimistic to me), then I think it would still be a lot cleaner than it's ICE powered counterpart.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Neil 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry Dave. My comment on coal fired plants was not aimed at you. It was in
response to David's post, and just a general comment on a widely used
argument against electric vehicles.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Uh, back to the subject topic of the EPA Ratings for the Leaf... of interest
to me since this is the first time I've seen a label for a real EV. It turns
out that the EPA has indeed provided us with a fair bit of transparency.
Summarizing:

EPA's fine-print assumptions:

Energy conversion: 33.7kWh/gallon of gasoline
Price of electricity: $0.12/kWh
Driving distance per year: 15,000miles

Results of EPA's testing/measurements/modeling/whatever:

34kWh/100miles, average

99 mpg equivalent combined city/highway
106 mpg equivalent city
92 mpg equivalent highway
73 miles range
$561 Annual Electric Cost

EPA sticker trivia:

Full Battery Charge Time: 7 hours @ 240v
Greenouse Gases CO2 Tailpipe Only: 0gm/mile 
Other Air Pollutants: "10" (best)

Confirming EPA's calculation of MPGe:

100mi/34kWh x 33.7kWh/gal = 99.1mpg "equivalent"

Furthermore, we can derive:

EPA's Gasoline Price equivalency: 33.7kWh/gal x $0.12/kWh = $4.04/gallon

City Driving: 33.7kWh/gal / 92mpg = 366Wh/mi = 36.6kWh/100mi

Highway Driving: 33.7kWh/gal / 106mpg = 318Wh/mi = 31.8kWh/100mi

I don't know how EPA calculated their Annual Electric Cost of $561:

I get: 34kWh/100mi x 15000mi x $0.12/kWh = $612

or, 15000mi/99mpge x $4.04/gal = $612

Comments:

As previously discussed, the "Range" number appears to be based around a 95%
battery utilization. Sad that this alone may dissuade potential buyers who
don't realize how easy it should be to get close to the advertized 100 miles
if they really had to, and for most drivers how rarely they would need to.
Also sad to say, it may actually be fairly accurate for new drivers who will
tend to lead-foot the car.

I don't think the "Recharge Time" number should even appear on the sticker.
Let the showroom salesperson do that, because it is a function of the power
source. When asked this questions, I answer in terms of miles available per
hour of recharge time, as I virtually never come close to fully depleting my
batteries.

I'll let someone else comment on the significance of the EPA's (unintended?)
assumptions leading to the $4.04/gallon gasoline price.

Unanswered is EPA's Regeneration methodology.

Thanks for bearing with me, and I promise all future posts will be very
short. JoeS.

-----
Joe Siudzinski
Two Corbin Sparrows (daily drivers) and '65 Saab EV conversion
Gen1 Honda Insight lifetime 78mpg over 70Kmiles
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