# [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would say he is doing something wrong. I do not know how he has built hi=
s EV, but it apparently does not properly accommodate a Logisystems Control=
ler. These controllers are very powerful and do not have the greatest low =
end control, so it is easy to feel that they have a jerky start (he is not =
the first I have heard complain of this). Mine does not, and here is why. =
First, the controller has a throttle ramp up adjustment screw. This does =
exactly what you would think it does, slows the initial surge of current fo=
r a smooth ramp up. Second, I have a clutch in my EV, so the power of the =
controller at startup is managed just like an ICE, slip the clutch. Finall=
y, I have a smaller motor (6.7 ADC), so my motor is not as tourqie as a lar=
ger motor would be. All three of these factors can be tweaked to allow for=
the controllers natural tendency to want to make you go like a drag racer,=
and it is likely you do not need all three to find a performance level you=
are happy with. For instance, I'm farily confident that even if I had a 9=
inch motor, my clutch and the ramp up adjustment would be enough for me to=
dial things in for nice smooth starts.

damon
http://www.evalbum.com/1524

> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:11:48 -0600

> From: [email protected]

> I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below

> doing something wrong and missing an adjustment or are they really

> that jerky on startup?



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess it probably depends on how sensitive you are to such things and how
heavy you are with your foot on the accelerator. On mine (120-144V; 750
Amp) even with a very gradual acceleration there is a bit of a jerky start
(not really that bad as far as I'm concerned) unless I use my clutch which
allows me to smooth it out. Another argument for keeping a clutch.

And yes (as Damon points out) there is a throttle ramp adjustment that might
well help too.

- Peter Flipsen Jr
Pocatello, ID
http://www.evalbum.com/1974



> Brian Pikkula <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> > doing something wrong and missing an adjustment or are they really
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mine use to surge badly on startup even with the ramp turned to minimum and
the sensitivity turned down all the way. It died after 2 months and I sent
it back for repair. They did something when they repaired it that took care
of the jerky start. I even have the ramp turned up a bit. There is no
longer access to the sensitivity control, which was the second screw on the
adjustments. I can now start off as slowly as I like and the acceleration
can also be as quick as it was before but smooth now. I don't know if they
did something on purpose to fix it on mine or if it was just random chance.

Paul
www.evalbum.com/1588





> Brian Pikkula wrote:
> >
> > I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> > doing something wrong and missing an adjustment or are they really
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Brian Pikkula wrote:
> > I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> > doing something wrong and missing an adjustment or are they really
> > that jerky on startup?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Since I've heard of a number of people having this problem with the
logisystem controller, but not with others, I'd say it's a flaw in the
logisystems. A smooth throttle response from the factory is not an
unreasonable expectation. Having to slip the clutch in an EV doesn't seem
right, especially if you're going clutchless.



> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> >
> > Mine use to surge badly on startup even with the ramp turned to minimum
> > and the sensitivity turned down all the way. It died after 2 months and I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

Hell! They went back to the drawing board! After one of our guys had to 
ship THREE Logi jobs BACK after blowing them up BEFORE he got out of the 
driveway(Rob Kelly? Got yur ears on?)He was running a 9" motor and I kear 
that Logiis and Curtis's DON'T like the inductance thing of a 9"er?OK Not to 
Diss the guyz at Logi? But theyt were going through a learning curve.We need 
all the folks WILLING to TRY to build ballsier controllers than the garden 
vireity Curtis, that we can get!UNTIL the Zillas find a new home?

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?


>
> Mine use to surge badly on startup even with the ramp turned to minimum 
> and
> the sensitivity turned down all the way. It died after 2 months and I 
> sent
> it back for repair. They did something when they repaired it that took 
> care
> of the jerky start. I even have the ramp turned up a bit. There is no
> longer access to the sensitivity control, which was the second screw on 
> the
> adjustments. I can now start off as slowly as I like and the acceleration
> can also be as quick as it was before but smooth now. I don't know if 
> they
> did something on purpose to fix it on mine or if it was just random 
> chance.
>
> Paul
> www.evalbum.com/1588
>
>
>


> > Brian Pikkula wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> >> doing something wrong and missing an adjustment or are they really
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:12:05 -0600

> From: [email protected]

> You can fix the problem by adding resistance or inductance in series =


> with the motor. Or, Curtis changed their controller to drop from 15 KHz =


> to 1.5 KHz when first starting, so the minimum duty cycle is 0.1% =


> instead of 1%.

> =


> I believe the Logisystems controllers are based on the Curtis design. Do =


> they switch at 1.5 KHz when you first start out?

They do not whine, so I do not think so, but I am only going by what my ear=
s don't hear. I have not asked Logisystems the question.

damon

> -- =

> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> =

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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't consider needing to slip the clutch a flaw. After all, there are m=
illions of cars on the road that you can't start moving without slipping th=
e clutch, but I do not think I would recommend this controller for someone =
without a clutch. Then again, I would not recommend that anyone build an E=
V without a clutch period, but that is a whole 'nother debate that usually =
pops up on the list a couple of times a year. =


For the record, I drive mine without using the clutch all the time, but if =
I want to creep along, or when I am backing out of the driveway I usually s=
lip the clutch. The clutch is only one of the 3 possible remedies I mentio=
ned earlier, but I think perhaps the most important of the three. Of cours=
e, when I was originally getting my system dialed in I drove around with ze=
ro current ramp for a day or two to see how it felt, and it was a bit too h=
arsh for me even with the clutch.

I really like my Logisystems controller and hope they are successful. It's=
nice to have a well powered, well priced controller that you can get your =
hands on, and get support for. Of course if I ever have to ship it back an=
d wait months on a repair again my level of satisfaction will certainly cha=
nge. I'm optimistic that I've helped Logisytems field test their design to=
the point where it is ready for primetime now 

damon

> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:07:27 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?
> =

> =

> Since I've heard of a number of people having this problem with the
> logisystem controller, but not with others, I'd say it's a flaw in the
> logisystems. A smooth throttle response from the factory is not an
> unreasonable expectation. Having to slip the clutch in an EV doesn't seem
> right, especially if you're going clutchless.
> =



> > Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > > =
> 
> > > Mine use to surge badly on startup even with the ramp turned to minimum
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't hear anything with this new version, but it messes with the radio so
badly that I had to get a direct connect cable for the satellite radio,
which took care of the problem. The older version did not cause any
appreciable radio frequency interference. My kids claimed they could hear a
high pitch from the original version of the controller, but that this one is
better. They also claim they can hear bats, so their ears are clearly
better at the high frequencies than mine. Whatever was changed also took
care of the jerky start and I do not have a clutch, so I am happy with the
change.





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Brian Pikkula wrote:
> >> I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't hear anything with this new version, but it messes with the radio so
badly that I had to get a direct connect cable for the satellite radio,
which took care of the problem. The older version did not cause any
appreciable radio frequency interference. My kids claimed they could hear a
high pitch from the original version of the controller, but that this one is
better. They also claim they can hear bats, so their ears are clearly
better at the high frequencies than mine. Whatever was changed also took
care of the jerky start and I do not have a clutch, so I am happy with the
change.

Paul
www.evalbum.com/1588





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Brian Pikkula wrote:
> >> I'm thinking about getting a Logisystems controller. Is the guy below
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ICE's need a clutch because they idle. EV's do not.  I guess I look at it
this way, other controllers avoid the jerky start, Logisystems should as
well. I know they are trying to work out the bugs and I hope they succeed.




> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > I don't consider needing to slip the clutch a flaw. After all, there are
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I certainly understand your position, and don't feel a need to debate it. =
I think it is an issue that people should be aware of, as well as knowing t=
hat it is not necessarily going to be a problem for their EV. Unfortunatel=
y there is no way to know for sure except to give it a try. =

=

I can tell you for sure that if you are building a 1970 Datsun truck with a=
n 6.7 inch ADC motor and retain the original transmission and clutch that e=
ven a Logisystems controller with 1000 amps on tap can be tamed to the poin=
t where it is both smooth and fun to drive 
=

damon> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 06:00:57 -0800> From: [email protected]> T=
o: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?> > > I=
CE's need a clutch because they idle. EV's do not. I guess I look at it> th=
is way, other controllers avoid the jerky start, Logisystems should as> wel=
l. I know they are trying to work out the bugs and I hope they succeed.> > =

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 8 Feb 2009 at 6:00, AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > other controllers avoid the jerky start, Logisystems should as well.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> dale henderson wrote:
> > my friends and i have a bit of a rough start with our kelly
> > controllers, so i would like to know how to add some 'inductance'?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you have any idea what length of wire to use or what size coil to make? 
Any idea of how much inductance would be useful? I found this inductance
calculator but have no idea what parameters to enter: 
http://my.athenet.net/~multiplx/cgi-bin/airind.main.cgi
http://my.athenet.net/~multiplx/cgi-bin/airind.main.cgi 




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > dale henderson wrote:
> >> my friends and i have a bit of a rough start with our kelly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

True, but Curtis "fixed" it by redesigning their controller. I suppose they
could also have included an inductor or given an inductor value and let the
end user add it if necessary, but since the ADC 9 is such a popular motor
they probably felt it best to change the controller. Your point that it may
not be Logisystems fault is well taken, but I've seen so many different
complaints of this same behavior with them, and Kelly, I have to wonder.




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 8 Feb 2009 at 6:00, AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds like trying to fix a software problem with hardware. The 
Zillas produce soft starts without a high frequency whine, so it can 
be done. Logisystems just needs to improve their design to 
accommodate the needs of the market.




> AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > Do you have any idea what length of wire to use or what size coil to
> > make?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPhibian wrote:
> > Do you have any idea what length of wire to use or what size coil to make?
> > Any idea of how much inductance would be useful? I found this inductance
> > calculator but have no idea what parameters to enter:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPhibian wrote:
> > True, but Curtis "fixed" it by redesigning their controller. I suppose they
> > could also have included an inductor or given an inductor value and let the
> > end user add it if necessary, but since the ADC 9 is such a popular motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sounds like trying to fix a software problem with hardware. The
> > Zillas produce soft starts without a high frequency whine, so it can
> > be done. Logisystems just needs to improve their design to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a Logisystems 156V 750A installed on an S10 with an ADC 9. This
last rev seems to have a good throttle ramp. They kept the throttle
ramp and current limit threshold adjustments, but got rid of the current
limit "bandwidth" adjustment, which I think was more like adjusting the
"knee" of the current limit curve.

Anyway, with the current limit wide open and the throttle ramp at half
mast, I get a nice smooth ramp and a peppy S10 lead sled with no squeal.

I wouldn't want to add an inductive hoop-a-joop in series with the
motor. I think I'd rather hear a squeal at low speeds. It lets blind
people know you're starting to move.

-S

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, February 09, 2009 9:02 am
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>



> AMPhibian wrote:
> > True, but Curtis "fixed" it by redesigning their controller. I suppose they
> > could also have included an inductor or given an inductor value and let the
> > end user add it if necessary, but since the ADC 9 is such a popular motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for that explanation. I'm glad I went for the Zilla. I know I 
got my money's worth.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Sounds like trying to fix a software problem with hardware. The
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is from the Zilla FAQ at cafeelectric.com. It sounds to me like
the Zilla is also lowering the frequency but dithering it to avoid
high pitched squeel

---------------------
What's the scraping/hissing sound when I drive slowly?

Q: What's that sound when I start driving?

A: People variously report hearing a scraping, hissing or even
sometimes a hum when they are driving slowly with a Zilla. This is
perfectly normal for a Zilla powered EV and is not likely to be your
driveshaft scraping on the body (though it could be that).

Due to speed limitations of high power electronic switching devices it
is necessary to modify the pulse width modulation (PWM) of power
devices in a way that has audio consequences. We could have made it
squeal like some other controller manufacturers did, but decided that
we found white noise more pleasant. This is a noise made by the motor
in response to the spread spectrum frequency modulation that it
receives while the Zilla is in current limit. Since it happens while
in current limit and when the motor voltage is very low this sound is
usually only heard when the motor is turning slowly. The speed range
over which it makes the sound is more pronounced in both single ratio
and high voltage vehicles.

-Otmar

---------------------------



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> Sounds like trying to fix a software problem with hardware. The
> >> Zillas produce soft starts without a high frequency whine, so it can
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can also use a technique like "pulse skipping" -- the controller is
still running at 18KHz, but only enabling every 5th time through
(~4KHz). If you wiggle the "5th time" a bit, you can make it less
audible. But that requires a better micro to be in charge of the
transistors (you can do PWM with a 555, but getting that to do pulse
skipping and spread spectrum is goofy at best).


-Thor Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Logisystems - jerky start?



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sounds like trying to fix a software problem with hardware. The
> > Zillas produce soft starts without a high frequency whine, so it can
> > be done. Logisystems just needs to improve their design to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 9 Feb 2009 at 11:02, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The low
> > inductance lets the current build up very fast during the "on" time, and the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow. Kudos to Lee. That is a great way of explaining it, and pretty 
damn funny, too!



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > On 9 Feb 2009 at 11:02, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> ...


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