# DEAD TCCharger?



## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Hi, 
You are not the first :

" Hi all, thought I'd post a quick update on whats going on.

My charger has been sent back to TC Charger for repair. They wanted me to pay the shipping (fair enough but cost £60) but then asked for an additional $80 for customs. It's now cost me over £100 to send back! " 

Why don't you get a real charger ? 

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=14


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Instead of the Manzanita expensive box why not go to Jacks site and get one of those Brusa Chargers. They are the best on the market and at the prices he is selling them at you can't go wrong. The Brusa can be configured for your needs and evens shuts off the charge when the voltage reaches the desired voltage level. 

Pete


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## Mark F (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Peter,

Sayyed at Elcon/Electric Conversions has been helping me try to figure out what is wrong with my TCCharger. 

Are you charging at 220v at home? If so make sure both legs of your circuit are good. I had a problem very similar to what you are describing and it turned out to be one of the breakers that make up the 220 line to my charging outlet had popped.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi there and thanks for all the input...

1. I'd really like to get a "real" charger... like the Brusa or the Manzanita Micro... but since I'm currently out of work and collecting unemployment... I don't have the cash.

2. I looked at EVTV's store. But Jack's statement about no warrenty (not that China gives any) or product support, doesn't give that warm fuzzy feeling that would allow me to withdraw $2000 from my bank account. I've bought from EVTV before and would recommend them to anyone... but I have to take what they say about "as is where is" at face value.

3. Soon as I read about a possible blown breaker I dashed outside to check the garage panel. Nope, no such luck... oh well, good thought tho.

Guess I'm stuck for the moment waiting to hear from the local vendor that sold me the charger. If he can't help me with any concrete solutions, I think my next step might be to contact Elcon/Electric Conversions in Sacramento about possible bench time to examine the cadaver or to sell me a replacement Elcon that he could then support under warranty if it needed it in the future.

Thanks... and if anyone has any other suggestions or thoughts on this subject, please feel free to add to this discussion.

Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Probably is just a fuse , if doesn't have warranty just open it and check for a blown fuse on input (AC side) and also on the output (DC side) too , they may be hard to find so look very carefully.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

PeterH said:


> Anyone else had something like this happen? If so, what was the final outcome?






Yabert said:


> Important problem occur! After more than 200 recharges with my Elcon 1500w, it decided to die.
> I don't know why, I don't know how to don't reproduce this situation and I don't know if I will buy a new Elcon charger.
> The second charger is the first one I bought one who had never work.
> 
> I'm now forced to buy gas... sad situation!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yabert,

You letting your BMS control your charger? 

That sucker looks nasty. But overall the quality of the Elcon has proven its self quite well over many other brands.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PeterH said:


> Hi there and thanks for all the input...
> 
> 1. I'd really like to get a "real" charger... like the Brusa or the Manzanita Micro... but since I'm currently out of work and collecting unemployment... I don't have the cash.
> 
> ...



Pete,

Spending $4k on a charger even with a warranty does not give warm fuzzy feelings either. The Elcon is a proven charger and one I quite like very much. I would not allow any BMS to control my Elcon. I would not over clock my Elcon either. I would also not use 120 voltage to plug into either. Use 240 instead. The charger runs cooler. I'd still go with an Elcon if you want a limited warranty. Even a NEW Brusa will only give you a limited warranty as they can't control the environment you connect it to and they have no control if you connect correctly or set it up correctly. So having NO WARRANTY really is no big deal. What kind of warranty do you have on your batteries? Controller? 

Pete


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## Mark F (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Pete,

Oh well it was worth a try, you did flip the breaker on and off right? Another problem I had with the charger turned out to be an Anderson type connector going from the charger to the battery pack failing. It melted so I was not getting a connection.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hello everyone,

Wow, you might think chargers are a weak link in these systems... but upon further thought, you'd realize that a failure anywhere could be catistrophic. The pictures of the burnt up charger are alarming!

I’m certain I’ve not had a melt-down of any sort. None of the magic smoke has leaked out and I don’t smell anything.

I have to agree with onegreenev (aka Pete J) about an Elcon charger. I reviewed the details on the Brusa chargers and while it might be a very nice build, it just doesn’t have the output of what I’ve been using. My 4KW TCCharger was charging my 45 cell pack at 26.1 amps and I’ve grown very used to being able to recharge after a drive to town, in about 90 minutes.

So I’m leaning towards an Elcon as a replacement but purchased from a dealer in the states who can program it properly and provide a bit of support. I didn’t get any support from the original TCCharger sent from the factory. I never did find out what profile they programmed. When I tested it the first time back in July, it didn’t shut off when I thought it should and my cells were going beyond 3.65 volts so I manually shut off the charge. Since then, I’ve let my BMS terminate the charge… which admittedly, isn’t the best approach. And I know that which is why I’ve stood there right at the end of each charge for the past two months to make sure it shut off. Talk about being paranoid! I was using some simple math to determine how long it would take at 26.1 amps to reach full charge and setting a timer on my cell phone to remind me to run out to watch it finish. That little routine worked perfectly fine till the charger decided it wasn’t going to work. So when I replace this charger I want another with some documentation about what profiles are loaded! But I’ll also talk with someone at that dealer before I order a replacement.

For the moment, I’m doing nothing while I wait for my local vendor to respond to my email. I spoke with him on the phone yesteday and learned he would be out of reach for a few days. I can live with that… I know him and he has family too. J

In my setup I’ve always used 240 VAC and a GE Watt Station as my source of power. I’ve never noticed it getting warm so I don’t think I had a over temp situation within the charger itself. I’ve since tested that 240 VAC circuit and know it is still good. I doubt there will be any warranty service offered on this charger. I suspect my vendor will want to crack open the case and take a look. Which, given that there isn’t any reason not to, might be a good idea. I also suspect a simple fuse has blown and I can certainly replace that myself (I would hope so).

In any case, I’ll update this thread with the gory details just to capture the information.

Thanks,
Pete


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

PeterH said:


> In any case, I’ll update this thread with the gory details just to capture the information.[/FONT][/COLOR]
> 
> Thanks,
> Pete


Good luck and don't forget the pictures.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PeterH said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Wow, you might think chargers are a weak link in these systems... but upon further thought, you'd realize that a failure anywhere could be catistrophic. The pictures of the burnt up charger are alarming!


I know that there are many things that can cause a catastrophic failure in our cars, but it sure does seem like it's usually the charger! 

I had one blow an internal fuse a while back (a cheepo no-name China charger), it singed the board and burnt up the fuse holder too. Seems like a poor design to me. Personally I will always have a back up charger since it does seem to be the weak link to me. You can buy cheap 1200W chargers for a few hundred bucks, good to have on hand as a backup to the high powered high dollars main charger.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Peter,

I had an issue with mine a few weeks ago. Ended up sending it back for repair at considerable cost. I had the red-green blinking lights.

I did pull the cover off the charger before sending it back and there is a serviceable fuse on the AC input.

I would pop the cover off and check it with a multimeter/continuity tester.

They didn't notice I had take the cover off - it only voids your warranty if they know about it!

Given that you get no lights whatsoever the AC supply seems a logical place to start.

Good Luck!


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Skooler... I might just do that. My thought was that since the fans come on but the LED doesn't that suggested it was getting power ok. 

However, now that you mention this, I'll bet that since the fans are DC powered, they probably have their own small power source within the charger and that the main AC power draw might have its own protective fuse, seperate from whatever is producing the DC.

It is certainly worth looking into!

I'll post an update once I've taken that step... hopefully within a day or so since I'm waiting, ever so patiently, for my local guy to call me... 

Thanks,
Pete


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> P...What kind of warranty do you have on your batteries? Controller?


He has an *excellent* warranty on his controller...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yes if its yours.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

It is... and if they made a charger I wouldn't be in this mess because I'd have one on board.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

PeterH said:


> It is... and if they made a charger I wouldn't be in this mess because I'd have one on board.


Likewise!....


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> He has an *excellent* warranty on his controller...


So when are you guys coming out with a charger?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

There were rumors afloat at EVCON about Evnetics coming out with a charger or perhaps a combo controller charger device. I even heard if from one of the guys from Evnetics. But no promises were made so we can only hope something is in the works...


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Question:

What is the difference between my TCCharger and an Elcon charger? Are they made in the same factory? Are they the very same product and we are just referring to them under different names?

I was just talking with my local vendor and he said that the Elcon charger is just a TCCharger that is being referred to as an Elcon charger and sold in the States.

Apparently he is already looking for a replacement and has spoken with EvolveElectrics in Colorado and it seems no one in the States is a 'stocking vendor' meaning everything has to come from China. It also seems that the factory won't let anyone outside of China program the charger which makes it nearly impossible for anyone to stock these chargers for rapid delivery. 

If you have any information to contribute to the 'back story' on this, please let us know.

Thanks,
Pete


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Its all TCCharger with different stickers!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PeterH said:


> There were rumors afloat at EVCON about Evnetics coming out with a charger or perhaps a combo controller charger device. I even heard if from one of the guys from Evnetics. But no promises were made so we can only hope something is in the works...


All new products for the DIY market - ie, charger and dc/dc converter - are on hold because controller sales have been rather anemic these last few months. At least some of the decline is seasonal - we have previously noticed that Aug to Nov tend to be slow months - but all of the cheap Azure junk that is being sold at fire sale prices sure isn't helping matters.

And on that note, someone that recently popped into the shop asked me where I thought we were on the (in)famous technology adoption curve (said person was likely inspired by Jack Rickard's recent pontifications on the subject). At the time I said we were early on in the innovators stage, but upon further consideration I instead think that this curve does not apply at all, mainly because the propensity to convert a car to electric requires both technical skills and a desire that seem to place it more in the category of "hobby" or "avocational pursuit", very much like brewing your own beer (which I used to do myself, and and have just begun doing again). Oddly enough, many people become interested in brewing their own beer because they think it will save them money... sounds disturbingly familiar, doesn't it?  

So, the long and the short of it (mostly long, apparently) is that we need to find new applications for our singular - almost unique, really - expertise in power conversion to be able to *afford* to make new products for the DIY EV market... kind of sad, but, well... that's life.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Darn... well, I for one certainly understand your position with respect to the market and what you would need to see happening before investing further resources to bring new products to market.

I for one, hope this EV conversion isn't my last... I've just had to suspend further planning while I look for gainful employment so I can fund the next conversion (and a new charger)! 

Let's hope 2013 sees a surge in conversion and a big up-swing in the EV conversion market!

Peter


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Update: Jan 5, 2013... 

My local vendor got a reply from the factory to his email asking if they would send any troublshooting information. Basically, they said "nope"...

They also said it would cost as much to repair this in shipping and customs fees as it would to buy a new one... but go ahead and send it back. At least that is what we got out of the message. Hard to tell with the vocabulary and syntax being used. I think this might be the person that wrote the manual... couldn't understand most of that either.

Meanwhile, I pulled the charger and cracked the case:

Now you see it:










Now you don't:










I'm not looking forward to reinstalling the charger. It was a tight squeeze to get it out and will be just as tight getting it back in. 

Moved the show from my unheated garage into my nice warm basement and then cracked the case and pryed off the lid:










No sign of any overheating or melting or other obvious physical damage. 

Took a moment to find the AC fuses but I did and they both checked out ok with my meter. So no easy fix...










I didn't know that what I really had was a matched pair of 2KW chargers in one box.










My local vendor took it home with him last night to put it on his bench to see what he might find.

I'm strongly considering the smallest Manzinita Micro as a replacement if there isn't a cheap fix for this TCCharger. Mostly because if this is the sort of support we can expect from China, then I'd MUCH rather buy something made locally so I have support when I need it. Even if 'local' in this sense only means in the same country! The extra cost will be well worth it. Actually, for me, I think the Manzinita folks are only about a 7 hour drive from here.

I'll post an update when I learn more.

Pete


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## Mark F (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Pete,

Try contacting Electric Conversions at [email protected] I believe they are the North America dealer for TCCH/Elcon chargers. They have been very helpful with a problem I am having with my TCCH charger (although still not fixed). If you need to send the unit to them they are in Sacramento CA so no customs .

If you get a chance, please take a photo of the inside the charger where the CAN module connects, if you have CAN.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

PeterH said:


> I didn't know that what I really had was a matched pair of 2KW chargers in one box.


That's really interesting. I wonder how tough it would be to split one


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

Peter,

With it apart, can you see the bottom (soldered) side of the board? I so, I would look very closely at the solder joints and traces around any of those heavier objects on that board. Unfortunately, unless those items are held tight in place, the vibration while driving eventually takes its toll. I have found heavy chokes that have broken clear off boards in higher vibration situations.

I wish you the best of luck. If you end up at a dead end and want to sell it cheap, let me know. I'm near Tacoma so shipping wouldn't be too bad. If you head to Manzanita Micro, maybe we could just meet somewhere. I'm about 60 miles south of them.


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

My local vendor took the charger home with him on Friday and called me this afternoon (Sunday) to day he couldn't find any obviously wrong so he suspects the logic side of things. He was able to test the IGBTs and the inductors and everything seems ok.

Next step is to send it to Sacramento and see what Electric Conversions can do with it. 

Pete


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

Time for an update on this thread.

My local vendor didn't find anything wrong, but really wasn't able to do much with the control circuits. The major components of the charger seemed fine to him. 

So, he shipped it off to Sacramento where we learned the control circuits were fried. Their opinion is that the charger control lines from the BMS (just 2 lines in this case) somehow saw pack voltage and fried the control circuits. So, no chance of any warranty repair or replacement. No surprise...

Cheapest solution is to order a replacement 2500 watt Elcon charger programmed with the 501 charge curve and set for pack size of 46 to 36 cells. That way I can at least pick different curves to adjust the cutoff voltage a bit.

Watched the current EVTV show today and in the last few minutes the discussed a new product based on the arduino board, to control over the CANBUS an Elcon charger. I'm sure that will open a lot of doors for using the TCCharger/Elcon beast without having to ship it to China or Sacramento for each and every tweak to the charger. I don't have any CANBUS on my rig or I'd have waited and bought on of their charger controllers.

My goal is to get this rig back on the road asap.

So now I wait for a new, smaller charger and hope it lasts longer than the original did.

I'm expecting to get the dead 4KW version back in my hands at some point. Not sure what I'll do with it, but hopefully, something constructive.

Pete


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PeterH said:


> Time for an update on this thread.
> 
> My local vendor didn't find anything wrong, but really wasn't able to do much with the control circuits. The major components of the charger seemed fine to him.
> 
> ...


Jack is just talking about the chargers that are shipped with the CAN option and not the ones without. Looking into that issue with the early versions. They do have a way to reflash them but digging it out is the issue. I am sure it is actually a simple affair and I do have one that is out of warranty and will be having a look within. If we can come up with a way to reflash these then it will be a good way to keep these chargers in business rather than having a bunch of good chargers unusable due to different algorithms. 

Car guys have been hacking the computers for a long time. Now its time to do so for these excellent controllers.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

PeterH said:


> My goal is to get this rig back on the road asap.
> 
> So now I wait for a new, smaller charger and hope it lasts longer than the original did.
> 
> ...


You didn't tried one of those bad boy charger yet ?


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## PeterH (Mar 20, 2009)

No... didn't have the time or money to try throwing one together. 

Been busy looking for a job that doesn't exist in this neck of the woods. Thinking of starting my own company to see if I'd hire me! 

When I get the dead charger back, maybe I'll have some parts to play with just in case I need something in the future!


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Just wanted to dig up this thread to show you all something that might have been missed....

On page one, Yabert shows us a comparison of his blown up and new controllers side by side. The blown controller has the AC Live and Neutral wired the wrong way around!

On this type of EU plug and lead, they are using Live-Black, Neutral-White & Earth-Green...

The new one is correct.

This may not be an issue under normal use, as the AC gets rectified, but there are serious implications for safety in the event of an Earth fault.

I have reason to believe this might happen often as my new charger also had the AC input reversed. I only found out because I had cause to remove the cover to cut off the two mounting brackets I didn't need for under bonnet clearance reasons and inspected it whilst apart.

I think the builders are getting confused due to both US and EU plug & leads being available, and US standard colours are different to EU!

A bit catch 22 though, if you open it to check it out, they might not honour warranty, if you don't, it could be wrong...


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## pdove (Jan 9, 2012)

I have opened 5 of these chargers and they are all wired wrong on the AC input. 
Also, We have fixed several of these chargers. Working on a way to red lash them now.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Can you post some pictures of what the correct way they should be wired is?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

pdove said:


> I have opened 5 of these chargers and they are all wired wrong on the AC input.
> Also, We have fixed several of these chargers. Working on a way to red lash them now.



Yes, do tell. Actually show-n-tell would be even better and an explanation on why they are wired wrong. Mine has always worked just fine.


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## pdove (Jan 9, 2012)

They come with the black wire on N and the white wire on L.

In the US the Black wire is Line not Neutral.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

pdove said:


> They come with the black wire on N and the white wire on L.
> 
> In the US the Black wire is Line not Neutral.


Have you successfully switched them so they live longer? What causes them to die if they are wired as they come? I use the Elcon. I guess I should check to see if they are wired up properly. I got mine out here in Sacramento directly from Elcon.


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