# [EVDL] Electric Sun Buggy



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I currently work for a dune buggy adventure company in Las Vegas (gets up to
115 degrees here regularly during the summer)
http://www.sunbuggyfunrentals.com
Our Buggies are powered by 670cc Air and Oil Cooled V Twin motors and mostly
run 2 hour long adventures on varied terrain uphill, downhill, sand, hard
pack,rocks, and gravel. In thier current configuration the top speed is
about 50 MPH but they rarely see over 35 MPH

and of course they run on unleaded fuel. we have about 50 of these and are
building more.

I've rolled around in my head (Longtime lurker here) how this could be done
better with an electric power train. No oil or Gas, less moving parts, easy
to speed or torque limit independently. Perhaps the battery pack could be
changed at the end of each 2 hour tour and the old pack plugged into a
charger for the next trip? In the current configuration the Buggies weigh
about 800 Lbs. I figure you'd save weight in the engine to motor conversion
and then gain it back with your gasoline to battery conversion. Has anyone
any examples of how this has been done before? These things bounce LOTS so
I don't know if it'd be better to go with a certain type of battery over
another. Expect that each buggy would run 4 times a day for 2 hours each
time, every day 365 days a year. if they cost $13,000 to build now (we make
them from "Scratch"), where does it become cost effective to go electric
(initial investment VS. operating expense)?

Just wondering if anyone here can help me by referring to past solutions
with similar operating conditions.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

well if you've been lurking a while, you can probably answer your own 
question..
on-road ev's with 1000lbs of batteries have trouble lasting an hour,
adding weight for a vehicle on sand won't help, heat kills batteries 
rather quickly and also the motors and controllers.
I mean of course you could do it, but I don't see any cost savings.

I'd suggest you consider running them on ethanol instead of gasoline,
would help the motors last longer and is a green fuel.

my $0.02

jack



> ZillaVIlla wrote:
> > I currently work for a dune buggy adventure company in Las Vegas (gets up to
> > 115 degrees here regularly during the summer)
> > http://www.sunbuggyfunrentals.com
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<<< I'd suggest you consider running them on ethanol instead of gasoline,
would help the motors last longer and is a green fuel. >>>

Yeah, if you're going to go 2 hrs needing frequent bursts of high 
current (in this case climbing, rather than accelerating), you'll need 
a pretty heavy pack - it might be easier to use biodiesel-fueled 
diesel engines - with so much heat in the desert, straight veggie oil 
might stay thin enough for unaltered engines (plus diesels have more 
low-end torque than spark-ignited ICEs). Whether EV or SVO, think of 
the eco-touring advertising!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Aug 2007 at 19:27, ZillaVIlla wrote:
> 
> > if they cost $13,000 to build now (we make
> > them from "Scratch"), where does it become cost effective to go electric
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If we knew approx how much fuel these things burned in 2 hrs, it would
make it easier to guestimate how much battery it needs.

However, as a swag, I'm going to guess that you can't get 2 hrs with
anything less than Lithium batteries.
If thats the case, then you're going to need $10,000-$20,000 worth of
batteries per 2hr outing. I'm not sure that quick charging is an option
either, so the four packs mentioned means each vehicle could cost up to
$100,000.

If cost is the driving goal, I don't think this is the solution.

EVs are great, but they are NOT a transportation panacea. They can't
solve every problem....yet.



> > On 30 Aug 2007 at 19:27, ZillaVIlla wrote:
> >
> >> if they cost $13,000 to build now (we make
> >> them from "Scratch"), where does it become cost effective to go electric
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi,

I see others have tossed opinions out there. A couple
of my thoughts.

Current vehicles have large soft tires, on sand a lot.
Looks like high rolling resistance. This could be
excessive drain on batteries and added load to the
motor/controllers. EVs like low rolling resistance.

Except golf carts. They have kind of big soft tires. 
Drive around on grass. Typically low speed.

You might want to try a golf cart out over your
terrain and see how it fares. Some guys soup up golf
carts with lift kits, real big tires and high power
motors. Maybe you could get one of these guys to run
your course and see if you can get a couple of hours. 
You'd learn a lot and he'd have some fun.

Love to see you go EV, but sounds like a tough app.

Jeff M





> --- ZillaVIlla <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I currently work for a dune buggy adventure company
> > in Las Vegas (gets up to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> ZillaVIlla wrote:
> > I currently work for a dune buggy adventure company in Las Vegas
> > http://www.sunbuggyfunrentals.com
> > how this could be done better with an electric power train?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- ZillaVIlla <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> top speed is
> > about 50 MPH but they rarely see over 35 MPH
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> ZillaVIlla wrote:
> 
> > I currently work for a dune buggy adventure company in Las
> > Vegas (gets up to 115 degrees here regularly during the summer)
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just in case this wasnt mentioned earlier in the
thread, here are some links with already built ones
that you can base actual performance. See if the
vehicles weights are within the range taht you
envision. Also, I recommend asking the owners some of
these questions in case they are not on this list.

I do tend to agree taht desert heat would be bad for
the batts and their life and performance seriously
shortens. The batts may not last as long as you
think. If you do build a prototype electric buggy for
your company, I would recommend another ICE buggy
accompany the electric with a built-in
alternator-inverter charger just incase your electric
dies from customer misuse and incase the solar panel
idea doesnt work as the sun sets. Maybe attach a
slave cable to a tow cable so taht the recovery
vehicle charges the batts as it is towing it. [Of
course this may seem too elaborate, just keep a
portable genny handy.] 

*******Quote********
> > > Perhaps the battery pack could be changed at the
> end of each
> > > 2 hour tour and the old pack plugged into a
> charger for the
> > > next trip?
You know, back at base camp for charging you dont
necessarily have to use a generator- a large battery
bank could be used to dump charge into the depleted
pack. But considering (as I understand it) that you
are going into the desert convoy-style, this is just
one more thing to bring into the park.

Anyways here are the links:

electric dune buggy built by aevehicles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHR3a7mCiEk

Paul Gooch's VW tub dune buggy
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=180
http://www.evalbum.com/125

electric sandrail (work in progress)
http://www.kevin-coughlin.com/

voltbuggy
http://www.dm3electrics.com/
http://www.coolfuelroadtrip.com/




> --- ZillaVIlla wrote:
> 
> > if the batteries were light enough, they could be
> > taken out and left on the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another thought occurred to me. This might be a good application for a 
hybrid type vehicle; half batteries, half ICE. You could use a really 
small reliable quiet clean ICE to power a generator, which provides a 
steady charge for a relatively small battery pack. Then use a decent 
sized electric motor and controller for fast hill-climbing and 
"exciting" performance.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't swap packs, swap buggies. I think the technology is getting close
for this to become more feasable in the near future.


I would think that an option would be to start with 2 lithium-ion
powered AC buggies with low gearing and a Lead acid dumppack. The regen
is probably a big deal here and we don't want to sand blast commutators.

If the trips are out and back maybe a "rest stop" at the other end where
the people swap buggies and a chargeing station at each.
They are always driving from charger to charger, they get out to have a
snack and drinks and get back in a charged buggy. This reduces the
charge/discharge time to 1 hour.

I am sure that there are a few people who would appreciate the alternative.

The dump pack could start with large capacity golf cart floodies and
transition to an underground bunker of used submarine batteries or the
25 year tubular plate lead acid standby batteries for long run cost
effectiveness.

I assume this is a high weekend use and low weekday use thing? The
shaded structure would of course be covered with solar. What would be
interesting is if the dump pack could store a weekends worth of charge
during the week and dispense it during the weekend.

Are these 1,2 or 4 seaters? Maybe the electric is just 1 or 2 seaters.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Originally, ZillaVIlla said:
>where does it become cost effective to go electric (initial 
>investment VS. operating expense)?

Good ideas on *costs* and development. Just wanted to comment that
additional *revenues* may offset some e-costs... 

If the e-buggies are significantly
quieter/"greener"/odor-free/whatever, *some* folks will pay a premium
for this, today.

Corporate or repeat clientele might be canvassed for support. 

One advantage the e-buggies do have right now vs gas.


>Just wondering if anyone here can help me by referring to 
>past solutions with similar operating conditions.

Past solutions didn't have options for the newer battery chemistries:
http://www.valence.com/
http://www.nilar.com/



LoCk
Living Better Electrically in Toronto
human-electric hybrid


Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

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