# 18650 UltraFire pack



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I am so tempted to make a pack out of these Ebay cells, they are almost to good to be true.
Cant figure out how there is 6Ah in a 38gr cylinder that costs $1.60
A 32s/90p 134v 540Ah replacement pack for the Barina that would weigh the same 110kg as the LifeTechs in there now would have 72kWh instead of 8.5kWh and cost $5000 instead of $12000 and have 720km of range instead of 80km.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181595765927?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/311156668961?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I fished these out of my dead cell box, they were in a battery drill and they are sacked out, they only get up to 3.8v just like worn LiPos.
So I have bought 30 odd test cells from Ebay and will do some discharge testing.


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

there are many videos with fake xxxxfire cells, everyone say to stay out of anything that has ''fire'' in it's name.

Quick find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfK6B8yDTY8


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm not sure about the RED ones you have, but in your provided links there is a black one, and I found a review of that cell.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...t-Review-of-UltraFire-SJ18650-6000mAh-(Black)

basically it is not 6000mAh, it is 6000mWh, and that is only at 1amp or less current, after that it drops off. The reviewer is one of the best for this testing, and he rated this as a BAD cell, do not purchase.

Here is his testing site, and all of them are also on candlepowerforums.

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary UK.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Well that's that shot to bits then
Panasonics are at least $10 each, wonder how much Elon pays for them.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Well that's that shot to bits then
> Panasonics are at least $10 each, wonder how much Elon pays for them.


Even though the xxxfire cells are total BS, an 18650 pack still is something to look at. Even though the C rates are lower than the little LiPo pouches, the higher energy density means that power density is matched pretty close, if you go with the power versions (the real ones, from companies that cell TVs in department stores  ). I recently did some tests on some 2.5 Ah Sanyos, and I was able to get 130W per cell for 30 seconds at a time. That's 2.9kW/kg. Samsung, LG, Sony and Panasonic make very similar cells. I personally like the Samsungs.

Buying onesies of these cells is pretty expensive, but if you buy enough cells to buy direct (basically a couple thousand) you can get prices under 1.50/Ah, so that's a lot cheaper than a lot of other high power options.

If you stick with the big name brands, you should be fine. Anyone who claims more than 2.6Ah for a power cell or 3.3Ah for an energy cell is lying (rumor has it Tesla has a 4Ah Panasonic now, but it's not on the open market for sure)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im investigating these, quoted price for 3000 cells shipped to Sydney.

http://victpower.company.weiku.com/...asonic-lithium-ion-battery-3-7v-19252633.html


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

$4.62 USD FOB plus shipping.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Great price for what should be great batteries. Good to see these are finally at a reasonable price. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with these and the results of your evaluation.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im investigating these, quoted price for 3000 cells shipped to Sydney.
> 
> http://victpower.company.weiku.com/...asonic-lithium-ion-battery-3-7v-19252633.html


What are you using them for? These are great energy cells, but limited in power. You'll probably be limited to around 2C with them. Although if you use all 3000 of them that's around 70kW...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hollie Maea said:


> What are you using them for? These are great energy cells, but limited in power. You'll probably be limited to around 2C with them. Although if you use all 3000 of them that's around 70kW...


Im looking into making a replacement pack for the Barina which as it stands will get the 8.5kWh Mira pack.
The 18650 pack would be 32s 90p 134v 306Ah 41Kwh.
Each cell has a continuous discharge of 4.8 amps x 90 = 432A 
Each Panasonic weighes 48gr so the 2880 cells would weigh 138kg
which is 30kg heavier than the 320 LifeTechs in the Mira pack.
The Panasonic pack would give the Barina a range approaching 400km.
This amount of cells would cost me around $20.000AUD to get here.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

So now Im onto these large format LiPo pouches from the same company.

http://victpower.company.weiku.com/...tic-pouch-cell-for-EV-MOTOCYCLE-19254933.html


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Im looking into making a replacement pack for the Barina which as it stands will get the 8.5kWh Mira pack.
> The 18650 pack would be 32s 90p 134v 306Ah 41Kwh.
> Each cell has a continuous discharge of 4.8 amps x 90 = 432A
> Each Panasonic weighes 48gr so the 2880 cells would weigh 138kg
> ...


That would be a nice pack. Are you going to use liquid cooling? With these Cobalt Oxide cells, you probably need it if you are spending much time near that 4.8A. They do get toasty.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hollie Maea said:


> That would be a nice pack. Are you going to use liquid cooling? With these Cobalt Oxide cells, you probably need it if you are spending much time near that 4.8A. They do get toasty.


Wouldn't make an 18650 pack.
I can make a 24kWh LiPo pack using the 36Ah cells above.
32s5p 134v 180Ah 120kg would get me 3 times the range I have now 240km.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Ripp...
Just be aware that some folks have had very disappointing experiences in dealing with Victpower ( and their various alias's) 
Some were ok, others got shipped scrap cells after paying for top quality new cells. 
At best it's a gamble !.
Check out some of the threads on ES?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

OMG this is turning into a how NOT to build your battery pack thread.
This is a zoomed in shot of the very 36Ah cell that they show in the advertisement. Note the corrosion around the terminal tabs.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Looks like re-welded tabs. They were selling a bunch of a123s like that as well.

Victpower seems reliable when it comes to cylindrical cells. But they don't seem to grasp that scrapped cells with re welded tabs are not acceptable to people.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

They did a lot worse than re welded tabs ( which indicate cells rejected and scrapped by the manufacturer)
They also sold a bunch of the A123 pouches with internal defects that didn't show up until a few months and a few cycles, necessitating pack rebuilds.
No warranty, no refunds, no replacements, no apologies. !
Not just one customer either, but many.
I personally would not trust them to supply tested , quality products of any sort.
They have the wrong business ethics !


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Varley racing team used UFO cells last year in their CBR race bike so Im checking out their large format 28.3Ah LiPo cells.

http://www.ufo-battery.com/index.php?/detail/product/16


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Things are moving foreward in the Lipo energy density department.
If I was to rebuild my 2 R1 race packs today, they would each be 15kg lighter than they are now. Same capacity.

http://www.gebattery.co/geb/EN/ProductList.asp?SortID=143&SortPath=0,134,143,


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

While these high energy density cells look great at first, I think closer inspection could reveal that there's no free lunch.

I believe that their power density is down compared to the heavier cells, and that they would sag and heat up quite a bit if you start to push the C rates. Maybe 5C would be about the max?

Great for your long multirotor flights, maybe not so great for motorcycle racing?


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres my next attempt at sourcing a good commuter LiPo cell.
$8000 for 26kWh 118kg.
The unplated copper tabs worry me a little.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...n-Polymer-Battery-20000mAh_547214684.html?s=p

sorry forgot to put the link in


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Those FEP cells I have been testing seem OK Dan. I haven't tested them beyond a few cycles though, so it would be interesting to see whether they can last the distance. I probably wouldn't race on them, but for commuting they could be OK.

At ~171 Wh/kg, you could build a 30 kWh pack which weighs well under 200 kg. Approximately US$0.65/Wh before customs, GST and shipping.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

RIPPERTON said:


> Heres my next attempt at sourcing a good commuter LiPo cell.
> $8000 for 26kWh 118kg.
> The unplated copper tabs worry me a little.



Just got the quote for 350 of these cells @ $12USD each so $4200 plus shipping.
Still the bare tabs and they are very close together.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...n-Polymer-Battery-20000mAh_547214684.html?s=p

Got a link for the FEP cells Chris ?

Damn Alibaba links don't work


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## jonescg (Nov 3, 2010)

Yeah mate - http://www.firstenergypower.com/product/showproduct.php?lang=en&id=36

They also make a 5.2 Ah cell which is 8 mm thick, 48 mm wide and 135 mm long I might consider in the race bike. Hope to get some samples next week for testing.


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