# Price of an 60kw Induction motor



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hello,

Recently I have joined this forum to read and learn as much as possible about vehicle conversions to electric. I have set my target for the motor to induction motors. 

My plan is to design and build an inverter myself. If that fails Im willing to step back and modify a small 3phase inverter with a much bigger output pack. 

Yesterday I received pricing + shipping and VAT for a (new) watercooled 60kw continious 90kw peak (60s) induction motor. 80kG, 8000 RPMS max. 

Is 3700,- Euro (including 19% VAT and shipping) a good/fair price for such a motor?

//Steven


----------



## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

you can get a AC50 for around 4000$ including the controller...

it is around 70kW peak too...

but it can do much better...

i think the next generation controller will be 144V and 650A...90kW


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

I assume you already know about EVE and what they offer but in case you dont...here it is 

http://shop.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/browse.asp?cat=60&path=47,60&tipoprod=AC_Induction_Motors


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

RoughRider said:


> you can get a AC50 for around 4000$ including the controller...
> 
> it is around 70kW peak too...
> 
> ...


Hi RoughRider,
Do you have a web/source for when and how it is going to do 90kW? 
I have made a graph of the AC50 @ 96 and fictional 144V (extrapolated!!!) and the motors that i'm currently also considering for my conversion. The AC50 data was taken from an XLS provided by http://hpevs.com/drive-systems/ac-50 . The other motors where eyeballed from bitmaps.


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

I made things less clear as they should have been. 
the Voltages on the graph are DC-Bus voltages, the currents are motor RMS currents.


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Yesterday I received pricing + shipping and VAT for a (new) watercooled 60kw continious 90kw peak (60s) induction motor. 80kG, 8000 RPMS max.


Hi Steven, who are you getting the price off? Could we have a link to the motor website please?


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

karlos said:


> Hi Steven, who are you getting the price off? Could we have a link to the motor website please?



Ill explain in more detail soon. First financial objectivity. Is it a bargain?


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Ill explain in more detail soon. First financial objectivity. Is it a bargain?


Assuming it is liquid cooled and the duty rating is suitable for you, it sounds reasonable, you can certainly find motors far more pricey and some less but the lesser ones seem to be lower voltage and higher amps; personally for reasons you are aware of no doubt, I like the higher voltage option.


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey Steven a quick search got me these...I think a better bargain...altho this motor is not rated at 60kw continuous power...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


----------



## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

steven4601 said:


> Ill explain in more detail soon. First financial objectivity. Is it a bargain?


I don't know about a bargain, but the price isn't bad considering comparable motors on EVE:

http://shop.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=MES07&cat=0&path=47,60

Or, weaker ones for 2200:
http://shop.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=EVE02&cat=0&path=47,60

-corbin


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

corbin;
[URL said:


> http://shop.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=MES07&cat=0&path=47,60[/URL]
> 
> -corbin


Make sure you use the fixing brackets as a guy on here awhile ago, it is my understanding didn't and cracked the mounting face. Blamed the Manufacturer of course. I wonder if the fixing brackets were in the drawing back then?


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi,
That Siemens has been on my wish list for a long time.

To bad the seller sells only to the US. Shipping to the netherlands and customs will probably bog down to 3k euro in total for a 30kw/60kw peak motor...

Siemens have got a few other motors too available through HEC-drives here in the netherlands. They are marginally  more expensive than the price i quoted in the start of my topic for the 50/60kw motor.


----------



## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

$1,899 US for a Siemens/Ford motor on eBay right now. Not sure about the kW rating but I believe it's up there.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260727239097#ht_500wt_1182


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Eric Tischer is using that motor in his Volkswagen Passat conversion. If I remember correctly it did 90hp/60kw avg @ 300V. It speeds a 1900kg car to 60mph in 15 seconds. Which confirms 60kw.


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

one of the pictures shows the motor sticker and it says "rated battery voltage 250v" ....so are you saying that it can be run at higher voltage...just like a dc motor can?


----------



## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

steven4601 said:


> Eric Tischer is using that motor in his Volkswagen Passat conversion. If I remember correctly it did 90hp/60kw avg @ 300V. It speeds a 1900kg car to 60mph in 15 seconds. Which confirms 60kw.


It is 33kw continuous, and 67 peak.

http://www.zuglet.com/ev/fordsiemens/fordsiemens.html

If you have a 60kw continuous, 90kw peak, then it is MUCH better.

corbin


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

efan said:


> one of the pictures shows the motor sticker and it says "rated battery voltage 250v" ....so are you saying that it can be run at higher voltage...just like a dc motor can?


Ofcourse. Limits in iron saturation and maximum electric withstanding voltage of the enamal wire (insulation voltage) must be respected. For most motors the enamel wire can handle 230VAC (400VDC) fine. It is the Iron that saturates. Tinker with the maximum volts per hz limit and it should deliver more kilowatt's at higher rpm's.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

At the peak, I'm pulling about 280A @ 300V from the battery. 
At around 8k rpm I'm still pulling about 180A @ 310V. 
My battery is nominally 330V. 

The Ford Ranger EV was rated 84kw with a 300V battery. 

I couldn't be happier with this motor. 0-60 is 14 seconds using only 2nd gear. Once I add my encoder, I'm hoping to get a bit more torque off the line and shave off another 1/2 second.


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Removed as double entering of same text


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Steven,

not completely sure what you are looking for (torque, rpm, bus voltage).

But using an industrial AC induction motor gives you this power level for below USD 2000 (using alu frame to achieve low weight). 

Have a look at ABB (expensive but large variety of motors) or other industrial suppliers. Go for a 220 V version, and you will have rated torque till ca. 2750 RPM. Look for a nominal 20 kW, with the 220 Delta version you get. ca. 35-40 kW nominal at 400-440 VAC (ca. 600 VDC), then taking into account the peak/nominal ratio (typical 3 or better) you have a 90-120 kW peak engine. THis is similar to the work done by some guys at www.aeva.asn.au . 

These motors are fan cooled, so less issue with cooling too. Only disadvantage is max rpm is only 5000-6000 rpm, compared with 9000-11000 for "real EV motors".

Regards,


Huub


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Huub,

I have been looking into air cooled motors. But mostly their mass is quite a bit higher for the same torque/power levels. Maybe I have not been reading the correct pages. or even reading the pages wrong.
Do you have a link / spec to an actual motor you would use for a sport car / roadster ?


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> Hi Huub,
> 
> I have been looking into air cooled motors. But mostly their mass is quite a bit higher for the same torque/power levels. Maybe I have not been reading the correct pages. or even reading the pages wrong.
> Do you have a link / spec to an actual motor you would use for a sport car / roadster ?


 
Hi Steven,

if you look here:
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/sc...781e3/$File/IPM_9AKK104559 EN Feb2010_low.pdf

Page 27 (of the pdf) shows the alu 4 pole motors of the industrial performance series. There is also a process performance series, and some others (eg. marine), in this respect it is difficult to get a real overview with ABB. If I remember well the industrial performance series is the cheaper of all.

Look at the high output series, and pick eg the 18.5 kW version (
M3AA 132 SMD 3GAA 132 007-••E) . Use the "S" variant (230 Vdelta), and with an 460 VAC inverter you will see nominal torgue till ca. 230/460*1445 = 2890 rpm, making this a 230/460*18.5 = 37 kW nominal power engine. Nominal torque is 122 nm, however breakdown torque is at Tb/Tn=2.6 -> ca. 317 Nm. So at nominal rpm max power is 317 * 2890 * 2 * Pi / 60 = ca. 96 kW. This is with ca. 200 A motor current and a frameweight of 92 kg. I have to gues, but from memory this motor is well below 2500 USD.

I used the 4-pole motor, as these characteristics are pretty OK for a direct drive. If you intend to go for a geared application, you can also take a 2-pole motor, and have rated torque up to ca. 6000 rpm !!

37 kW continous power (and this is really continous, 24/7 for many years!) is sufficient to propel any mid-size to large car at 100-120 km/hr (most cars do even need less, e.g. ca. 20 kW, at those speeds). No need to have 60 kW continous power. The 96 kW max power is more easily appreciated as 317 Nm constant torque up to 2900 rpm, meaning good acceleration values, even with direct drive (provided your controller can handle the currents).

Please be aware that many of these designs are "paperware", meaning that they only exist in simulations, and that the specs. can change without notice before a real sample is build.

Also you might notice that some motors are very similar, but only rated differently on paper (more stricter versions that fullfill higher efficiency regimes, other high-power versions of the same motor that do not fullfill these regimes). For an EV we do not have to take into account efficiency regimes, as we do not have 100% Duty Cycle, and are thus exempt from efficiency legislation at this moment.

Hope this helps a bit, regards, and good luck!


Huub


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Huub,

Thank you for your clarification.
Id have to admit some of these specifications do creep very close to the specs of the ev motor. 270nm max torque vs 300 for the ev motor, which is likely in the influence of paper ware . 
Weight is still 11kg off. Flanges, heatsink/grille and fan probably account for the weight. 

//Steven


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> 37 kW continous power (and this is really continous, 24/7 for many years!) is sufficient to propel any mid-size to large car at 100-120 km/hr (most cars do even need less, e.g. ca. 20 kW, at those speeds). No need to have 60 kW continous power. The 96 kW max power is more easily appreciated as 317 Nm constant torque up to 2900 rpm, meaning good acceleration values, even with direct drive (provided your controller can handle the currents).


Hi Huub, that was a really good summary!
Which ABB motor do you think would suit the full capacity of the Tritium Wave Sculpter 200 for a direct drive of an approximately 1500kg vehicle?

Cheers


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

karlos said:


> Hi Huub, that was a really good summary!
> Which ABB motor do you think would suit the full capacity of the Tritium Wave Sculpter 200 for a direct drive of an approximately 1500kg vehicle?
> 
> Cheers


Karlos,

thanks, happy to give back a bit to this forum.

Answering your question though, is a bit tough. The Wave Sculptor is a great piece of engineering (look at the weight of that part, only 8.5 kg, whereas I am going to have over 50 kg of industrial controller onboard), but a limitation is its 450 V DC battery input, which means that you will not be able to drive a standard industrial AC motor to the limit. 

You need to either 1) order a low voltage version of your motor like the "S" version of ABB (with 230 VDelta) or even lower voltage (apparently these are used in some asian regions, e.g. Japan) or revert to modifying a motor yourself. Latter can be done via 2) a professional rewinder, or if you are really lucky, via 3) some rewiring in the motor using the stock coils. See the www.aeva.asn.au website for some more details on this. It is very likely that rewiring (the third option) is not available with many motors (it is very much depending on the coils layout of the motor).

To answer you question, it would also be needed to know your motor weight budget, with other words, how much kg are you able to spend on the motor?

Another point that would be needed to answer your question, is the gearing between the motor and the road, this includes any left-over transmission, the differential rate, any wheelside gears (very seldom, typically only for all-terrain vehicles like the Unimog and Hummer) and the tire radius.

Finally it depends on your performance wishes, are you looking for acceleration, range, topspeed, ...? For acceleration combined with a high top speed direct drive tends to be not the optimal solution. The industrial AC rpm limit of 5000-6000 would not allow a high topspeed with the gearing that would be needed for quick acceleration. This is one of the fields where some specialty AC motors (like the Siemens) really stand out with max rpm to 9000 rpm and beyond. A "normal" performance is fully feasible, looking at conversions that others have done before.

Just looking at the Wavesculptor you could say that any motor that is capable of using 300 ARMS motorside is suitable to be used with that inverter. Main question (and to answer that you need info on the points above) is whether you have a favourable working point (rpm, torque) with that value.

Gutsfeeling says that with the Wavesculptor you should be able to run a 1500 kg car (just looking at the power levels), another gutsfeeling tells me that it might be not feasible to use a stock ABB motor for this, but rather you might need to go the rewinding route to fully use the potential of the Wavesculptor. 

Regards,


Huub

BTW: I made a small but annoying mistake in my mail above, stating that going from 230 to 460 would mean going from 1445 to 2890 rpm. That is not right. 

The original ("S" version motor) unloaded situation is 230V = 50 Hz = 1500 rpm (=50 Hz * 60 seconds / 2 polepairs). The 1445 rpm for nominal torque mains 55 rpm (1500-1445) electrical "slip speed". This slip speed is directly coupled to the torque. 

So if we overvoltage this motor with 460 V, we end up with 460V = 100 Hz. = 3000 rpm unloaded. For the nominal torque we end up with 3000-55 = 2945 rpm (using the 55 rpm slip speed of above), for maximum torque (with Tb/Tn = 2.6) we end up with 300 - (2.6*55) = ca. 2857 rpm.


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

karlos said:


> Hi Huub, that was a really good summary!
> Which ABB motor do you think would suit the full capacity of the Tritium Wave Sculpter 200 for a direct drive of an approximately 1500kg vehicle?
> 
> Cheers


 
Karlos,

just two thoughts that popped up:
- looking at the numbers of Eric on his Siemens motor I got the feeling those might be well fitting to the Wavesculptor. At least then the performance would not be limited by the controller but rather by the motor. You can also try to get one of the larger sizes in this range, for a perfect match. Only comment is that you might need additional gearing (Eric is using 2nd gear most of the time) as the differential ratio is too low too efficiently use the full range of the Siemens. Looking at Ebay the Siemens of Eric's type should be available for below 2000 USD (excl. freight and duties).
- I would suggest contacting Tritium James (of Wavesculptor fame) on the type of motors he would advice. After all the AUS and NZ EV-groups have quite some expertise ordering/rewinding/rewiring several types of motors, and their know-how might be readily applicable to you (you are based in NZ, isn't it?).

Regards,


Huub


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> Karlos,
> 
> just two thoughts that popped up:
> - looking at the numbers of Eric on his Siemens motor I got the feeling those might be well fitting to the Wavesculptor. At least then the performance would not be limited by the controller but rather by the motor. You can also try to get one of the larger sizes in this range, for a perfect match. Only comment is that you might need additional gearing (Eric is using 2nd gear most of the time) as the differential ratio is too low too efficiently use the full range of the Siemens. Looking at Ebay the Siemens of Eric's type should be available for below 2000 USD (excl. freight and duties).
> ...


Yes Huub, in the North of the NZ. 
It's really helpful to have the benefit of your comments. I will contact the Tritium crowd to get their advice, somewhere some time ago I read they were going to publish a list of suitable motors, but like you say, the applications can be quite varied. If I do the vehicle I bought, I would need all the Wave Sculptor can put out for a 2004 Holden Ute. I don't need high speed but high torque so yes, direct drive could be demanding without further gearing reduction.
I did seriously consider the Siemens on Ebay but someone mentioned they don't want to export them...

For sure I need to do some more research, much as I would love to use the Wave Sculptor, I have to work out if I carry carry out a high end conversion. You've given me some good leads to follow!

Huub, did I miss it or do you have a link to your conversion?

Cheers
Karlos


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

karlos said:


> Yes Huub, in the North of the NZ.
> It's really helpful to have the benefit of your comments. I will contact the Tritium crowd to get their advice, somewhere some time ago I read they were going to publish a list of suitable motors, but like you say, the applications can be quite varied. If I do the vehicle I bought, I would need all the Wave Sculptor can put out for a 2004 Holden Ute. I don't need high speed but high torque so yes, direct drive could be demanding without further gearing reduction.
> I did seriously consider the Siemens on Ebay but someone mentioned they don't want to export them...
> 
> ...


 
Karlos,

Looking at that Ute, you can see from the torque of the original engines that you would be looking at ca. 350 Nm and up max torque. I usually take the max torque of the ICE as a starting point for selecting an electric motor when going direct drive. For the low speeds you then have the disadvantage of no gears (so no torque multiplication), at higher speeds you get the full torque from the moment you would normally switch to 4th gear, and even more when you pass the switch point to 5th gear (assuming this is an overdrive).

For my own conversion plans (indeed, no link yet, a bit ashamed about the little progress I am making at this moment), I aim at replacing a 170 Nm ICE (small 1.6 l petrol engine) with a ca. 260 Nm 4 pole ACIM with 2x overvolting (so max torque till ca. 2850 rpm). From my simulations, I see that I get almost the same performance 0-100 kmh as with the ICE, slightly less acceleration below 100 kmh, and better above 100 kmh. Elasticity seems to be much better 50 kmh and above. All this is depending on the car weight and the differential ratio (I am looking at a BMW E36). Topspeed remains around 160 kmh.

So a very coarse guts feeling would be that choosing a ratio 260/170 = ca. 1.5 on torque ACIM/ICE would be a safe bet when going direct drive and keeping approx ICE performance.

Looking at your proposed car, you would end somewhere around 450-500 Nm ACM max torque using this rule of thumb. That is a real heavy beast, with power levels that would kill you battery pack when fully unleashed (or needing a very expensive pack).

I would assume a better way is to keep the gears, and use a drive like the 160 frame ABB or a larger frame Siemens. Currents still stay within reasonable and battery-friendly bounds. And performance would likely be better than in the ICE when using a manual.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards,



Huub


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> Karlos,
> 
> Looking at that Ute, you can see from the torque of the original engines that you would be looking at ca. 350 Nm and up max torque. I usually take the max torque of the ICE as a starting point for selecting an electric motor when going direct drive. For the low speeds you then have the disadvantage of no gears (so no torque multiplication), at higher speeds you get the full torque from the moment you would normally switch to 4th gear, and even more when you pass the switch point to 5th gear (assuming this is an overdrive).
> 
> ...


Very helpful and you make some good points!
One reason I went to this vehicle is because I live in the country, I have a lot of practical use for it. There will be so many car type EV's at a price I can't compete with in doing a conversion, it would be hard to justify the expense to me, so I wanted to do something that won't be done by the commercial guys for some time.
However, I still am considering a 'normal' car type conversion but would not want to do a high end conversion unless I was keeping it a long time and for that I would have to really like the car and I've had a few Beemers because I like them bu they also, are not the lightest!
If I was converting some like a BMW and using the Wave Sculptor, I would want to make sure the motor I used, could handle all the WS and batteries could give it otherwise I may as well go for something cheaper like a DC system, but I really like the benefits of AC.
With the Ute, I would use High CC batteries like Headyway and for the 160km commute I do now and then, I could see the benefit of chucking a few kW genset on the back rather than full time have a battery pack, I don't get the full range from. Cheaper too.

So to be clear, for the ute, some ballpark examples of components and keeping the transmission =

Wave Sculptor 200 - 450V battery side * 300Arms
ABB - 250V 160 frame 4 pole (good space for bigger if required)
Headway batteries - 450V * 30A (10CC) Not being very clued electrically (I'm better on mechanical engineering) how does the battery Amps relate to an AC 300Arms inverter requirement?
I still would prefer direct drive and can live with moderate acceleration. I have the V6 version of the Ute.

Your conversion sounds very interesting! I'm sure many of us would like to see you start a thread!

Note; hope nobody minds, I'm hijacking the thread a bit


----------



## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Genset of a few kw... I have been thinking about the same, but it is illegal to run a car on petrol after it has been converted and license has been updated as an electric. (atleast it is here)
Hydrogen would be allowed though. Maybe a fast (4 stroke rc model) engine on hydrogen would work as a generator. Just storing enough Hydrogen for 160km is the tricky bit.


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> Genset of a few kw... I have been thinking about the same, but it is illegal to run a car on petrol after it has been converted and license has been updated as an electric. (atleast it is here)
> Hydrogen would be allowed though. Maybe a fast (4 stroke rc model) engine on hydrogen would work as a generator. Just storing enough Hydrogen for 160km is the tricky bit.


 
Steven, Karlos,

interesting idea with the genset, wanted to do a check on the feasibility.

Say we have a car with 250 Wh/km @ 100 kmh (could be feasible).

This car has a normal range (battery only) of 50 km at that speed, so we would need a battery with 250 * 50 = 12.5 kWh safe storage (meaning a battery pack of 12.5/80% = 15,6 kWh capacity to stay above 80% DoD, but that is not relevant for the following discussion).

Now we want to drive 150 km, with 100 kmh, and use a genset as a range extender.

This takes 150km/100kmh = 1,5 hrs. We need for this 150 * 250 = 37.5 kWh electrical energy.

Subtracting the amount that comes from the batteries, we have 37.5 - 12.5 = 25 kWh that has to come from the genset.

Assuming the genset is running during the whole tour (optimal case), this means that the generator needs an electrical output of minimum 25 kWh/1.5 hrs = 16.7 kW!

This is not a small genset, and basically you have build a series hybrid, with a small in-between buffer in the shape of batteries. 


Using a larger pack, means that the genset can be smaller (e.g. having 100 km battery range means you need a 8.3 kW genset, still not small I fear).

Looking at this data, I begin to wonder what exactly the logic is behind a plug-in hybrid like the GM Volt. In the end you will need the full power from the genset to keep driving with a comfortable performance, even when the battery is flat (note that in the calculation the battery will not be flat till the final km, as it is charged by the genset from the beginning onwards).

Did I miss something in my explorations here?

Regards,


Huub


----------



## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> Did I miss something in my explorations here?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ...


Good analysis Huub but you did miss something; the looooong lunch stop and a few beers on the way!

No, those are not small gen set sizes for sure.....


----------



## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Huub3 said:


> Steven, Karlos,
> 
> interesting idea with the genset, wanted to do a check on the feasibility.
> 
> ...


logic -power spikes - increased power demand on acceleration:
if it takes 18kw to maintain 60 mph speed, it would take 180 kw for 2-3000 lbs to make 0-60 in 6 sec
so idea could be - to recover for few minutes what burned in few sec ... : )))


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Gor,

indeed, using the batteries as a buffer might make sense. However, this would mean the batteries need to be at least partially filled.

That is exactly the point of my concern, as this would mean running the genset from the beginning onwards (so the batteries never run flat, and the genset is providing the average "missing energy" over the trip), depending on the duration of the trip (less than battery range, no genset, more then battery range, genset running from the beginning onwards).

If we use the car with batteries only until these are flat, and then start the genset, we either need a genset that is capable of providing at least the average power need (rather a bit more, to again charge a bit the batteries), or even a genset that is providing full power needed for a comfortable acceleration.

Trouble is whether we might need to plan the trip for an plug-in hybrid in a similar way as we have to do for an EV. This seems to be counterintuitive looking at the marketing promise of plug-in hybrids.

I am looking forward to your remarks.

Regards,


Huub


----------

