# Looking For High Output Alternators



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

Been searching a few weeks for existing components to base my range extending ideas and concepts on and found a nice 12.6 KW one but wondering what else is out there that I havent ran across. Is there an alternator that exists with a higher output than this 24V 525A (SBC-24V-525) with the same form factor, air cooling, etc?

Also this alternator requires 25HP and 5,000 RPM for the rated output of 525 amps (4,000 RPM required for 500 amps). Is there one with similar or greater output that requires either a lower required HP or lower required RPMs?









http://www.smartbatterycharger.net/24-Volts/183/sbc-24v-525

Thanks in advance...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> Been searching a few weeks for existing components to base my range extending ideas and concepts on and found a nice 12.6 KW one but wondering what else is out there that I havent ran across. Is there an alternator that exists with a higher output than this 24V 525A (SBC-24V-525) with the same form factor, air cooling, etc?
> 
> Also this alternator requires 25HP and 5,000 RPM for the rated output of 525 amps (4,000 RPM required for 500 amps). Is there one with similar or greater output that requires either a lower required HP or lower required RPMs?


Here's one: http://www.brusa.biz/index.php?id=362&id=362&L=1


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

How efficient is a small HPEVS motor/curtis controller combo in regen?

http://www.hpevs.com/the-drive-systems.htm


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

What's the application? How do you plan to use it?


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Most automotive alternators are not very efficient, and cannot easily be used as a motor. The sbc-24v-525 alternator is 12.6 kW which is 16.9 HP so if it needs 25 HP to run the efficiency is about 16.9/25 = 68%. The one that Major suggested is about 95% efficient, but it seems to be about 400V input/output. You could get a 7.2/10kW generator head from Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/10000-watts-max-7200-watts-rated-belt-driven-generator-head-45416.html and it is rated to work with a 16 HP engine. But it has a 120/240 VAC output and is not designed to be used as a motor.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

MN Driver said:


> What's the application? How do you plan to use it?


The application is for charging a battery. It will not be rotated directly by a motor....most likely a belt or chain arrangement harvesting rotational motion from a drive train.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> The application is for charging a battery. It will not be rotated directly by a motor....most likely a belt or chain arrangement harvesting rotational motion from a drive train.


This sounds like you should have posted in this thread ---> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

major said:


> This sounds like you should have posted in this thread ---> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html


Its not perpetual motion.....

All I am currently looking for is similar alternators like the one I posted above because it seems to be the most viable option I have found to use for my device so far. From the replies in this thread so far, it appears people need more information to answer my question.

Take a look at this post I just made on the TeslaMotorsClub forum on how I am calculating driving ranges for the range extender. It will give a better idea of what I am trying to achieve.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...To-Range/page2?p=414657&viewfull=1#post414657


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Looks like Major was correct--thread should be moved.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

A mod can move it where ever they want but this isnt a perpetual motion idea so the thread he suggested I should post this in does not apply. My initial question was just related to alternators for the purpose of battery charging and that was it.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> ...this isnt a perpetual motion idea...


Yes it is, based on this quote from your post on the aforementioned Tesla forum:



RaySuave said:


> The range extender utilizes an alternator driven by the existing drive train to charge the depleted battery of a dual EV battery bank.


The motor in a Tesla can already act as a generator (or "alternator", which is simply a specific type of "generator"), so adding another alternator is superfluous. If your goal is to simply return energy to the battery during braking that would otherwise be wasted heating up the mechanical brakes, then your goal is not perpetual motion, per se, but it is redundant, as the Tesla's motor can already do that automatically. If your goal is to recharge the batteries any time the vehicle is in motion then, yes, your goal is perpetual motion and you need to be beat about the head and shoulders with a stick.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> A mod can move it where ever they want but this isnt a perpetual motion idea so the thread he suggested I should post this in does not apply. My initial question was just related to alternators for the purpose of battery charging and that was it.


The referenced thread, *Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that... *, was created to explain to folks like you why your concept is flawed and a waste of time. Take time to read some of the posts there from senior members. The thread is an attempt to keep the rest of the discussions in these technical forums based in reality.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> Yes it is, based on this quote from your post on the aforementioned Tesla forum:
> 
> 
> 
> The motor in a Tesla can already act as a generator (or "alternator", which is simply a specific type of "generator"), so adding another alternator is superfluous. If your goal is to simply return energy to the battery during braking that would otherwise be wasted heating up the mechanical brakes, then your goal is not perpetual motion, per se, but it is redundant, as the Tesla's motor can already do that automatically. If your goal is to recharge the batteries any time the vehicle is in motion then, yes, your goal is perpetual motion and you need to be beat about the head and shoulders with a stick.


*per·pet·u·al mo·tion *

Noun


A state in which movement or action is or appears to be continuous and unceasing.
The motion of a hypothetical machine that, once activated, would run forever unless subject to an external force or to wear.
The definition above is what I have always known to be perpetual motion. I think you need to beat yourself in the head. I never claimed I was attempting to make anything operate continuously forever. My goal is simply to extend range, even if its only a 10% range increase. If my goal was actually perpetual motion, it wouldnt have anything to do with the question I initially asked in this post.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

major said:


> The referenced thread, *Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that... *, was created to explain to folks like you why your concept is flawed and a waste of time. Take time to read some of the posts there from senior members. The thread is an attempt to keep the rest of the discussions in these technical forums based in reality.


What does this have to with me asking for similar alternators than the one I posted?? It shouldn't even matter what I want to use it for if I'm simply trying to find the same type of item. 

I never tried to convince you guys of anything or asked suggestions on whether my ideas or whatever I'm trying to do would even work. I read some of the posts in that thread and most of them are of people pitching ideas. I'm not pitching anything to you guys so my post in that thread would not apply. I never even tried to ask the folks on the Tesla board whether my ideas would work.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> ...My goal is simply to extend range, even if its only a 10% range increase....


On the vanishingly small chance that I, major, etc., have misunderstood you, please answer this question:

Are you attempting to recharge the batteries while the car is in motion using an alternator driven by the motor in an EV? Yes/No?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> What does this have to with me asking for similar alternators than the one I posted?? It shouldn't even matter what I want to use it for if I'm simply trying to find the same type of item.
> 
> I never tried to convince you guys of anything or asked suggestions on whether my ideas or whatever I'm trying to do would even work. I read some of the posts in that thread and most of them are of people pitching ideas. I'm not pitching anything to you guys so my post in that thread would not apply. I never even tried to ask the folks on the Tesla board whether my ideas would work.





major said:


> The referenced thread, *Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that... *, was created to explain to folks like you why your concept is flawed and a waste of time. Take time to read some of the posts there from senior members. The thread is an attempt to keep the rest of the discussions in these technical forums based in reality.





RaySuave said:


> What does this have to with me asking for similar alternators than the one I posted??


You dropped a big hint with this post: 



RaySuave said:


> The application is for charging a battery. It will not be rotated directly by a motor....most likely a belt or chain arrangement harvesting rotational motion from a drive train.


If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...... I think we get the picture. We are actually trying to help you. But you're welcome to continue to waste your time and money, or you could learn about the basic physics involved.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> On the vanishingly small chance that I, major, etc., have misunderstood you, please answer this question:
> 
> Are you attempting to recharge the batteries while the car is in motion using an alternator driven by the motor in an EV? Yes/No?


Lol @ vanishingly small....

No not directly. Rotational power would be essentially taken from the shaft that drives the wheels. I'm not ready to publicly disclose how I plan to generate the rotational speed for the alternator though.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

major said:


> You dropped a big hint with this post:
> If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...... I think we get the picture. We are actually trying to help you. But you're welcome to continue to waste your time and money, or you could learn about the basic physics involved.


This is the main reason why I wanted to avoid posting about the application, but judging from the initial replies in the thread I felt it was necessary. The money was already spent a few months ago on the provisional patent application. I'm not incurring anymore expenses except time spent researching and learning which is something I enjoy anyway. The device has many potential applications other than range extension so even if it doesnt work out for this particular purpose, all efforts up till now will not be entirely wasted. Also, I have been exposed to many areas of physics having went thru a 5 year engineering undergrad program.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> This is the main reason why I wanted to avoid posting about the application, but judging from the initial replies in the thread I felt it was necessary. The money was already spent a few months ago on the provisional patent application. I'm not incurring anymore expenses except time spent researching and learning which is something I enjoy anyway. The device has many potential applications other than range extension so even if it doesnt work out for this particular purpose, all efforts up till now will not be entirely wasted. Also, I have been exposed to many areas of physics having went thru a 5 year engineering undergrad program.


What institution did you attend which neglected to mention conservation of energy in their physics curriculum?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> Lol @ vanishingly small....
> 
> No not directly. Rotational power would be essentially taken from the shaft that drives the wheels. I'm not ready to publicly disclose how I plan to generate the rotational speed for the alternator though.


Right. You have confirmed to my satisfaction that you have no clue about basic physics and that this thread should be deleted with prejudice.

To quote Jack Nicholson from As Good As It Gets: take your crazy elsewhere; we're all stocked up here.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

major said:


> What institution did you attend which neglected to mention conservation of energy in their physics curriculum?


Again, I am not after perpetual motion....somebody has a hard head.

You guys are driving people away from this message board with the unwarranted attacks. I have recommended this board to a few friends and some people I come in contact with on other boards as a good place to learn from like minded people, not sure if thats still the case.

If you wanted to make any reply in this thread, a good reply would have been "I am unaware of any similar alternators with the attributes you are asking." Thats it, no other comments were needed, but no, you have to belittle people for the sole purpose of trying to make yourself appear smarter and superior or just trying to increase your post count. You and Tesseract are probably cyber high fiving each other right now.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> Right. You have confirmed to my satisfaction that you have no clue about basic physics and that this thread should be deleted with prejudice.
> 
> To quote Jack Nicholson from As Good As It Gets: take your crazy elsewhere; we're all stocked up here.


Your satisfaction doesn't matter...because this thread wasnt looking for anybodys approval. 

Its a shame I cant ask general question about an alternator if someone doesnt agree with the application I want to use it for.... Thats nuts. If I get more replies to close the thread I will do it.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> Again, I am not after perpetual motion....somebody has a hard head.
> 
> You guys are driving people away from this message board with the unwarranted attacks. I have recommended this board to a few friends and some people I come in contact with on other boards as a good place to learn from like minded people, not sure if thats still the case.
> 
> If you wanted to make any reply in this thread, a good reply would have been "I am unaware of any similar alternators with the attributes you are asking." Thats it, no other comments were needed, but no, you have to belittle people for the sole purpose of trying to make yourself appear smarter and superior or just trying to increase your post count. You and Tesseract are probably cyber high fiving each other right now.


See post #2.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

major said:


> See post #2.


Then after I said that it would not be powered by a motor....thats when you could have made your "I am unaware of any similar alternators with the attributes you are asking." reply. Thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Give the guy a break, two of our most respected members (that I personally highly respect) going on and on about garbage because there is a hint of something odd about the application.

As a new member if I came across this thread I would consider you two bullies or trolls with very little useful information to add and would not take you seriously in any other thread, but each of you are arguably the most qualified to answer questions in your respective fields. I know it's frustrating when new people come and ask the same questions 500 times a year, but you don't have to answer them, don't waste your time. Don't bring the forum down to that level.

I believe his basic question is completely valid and although the application does matter to provide a solid recommendation, we don't need to know every detail of the idea/application etc.

This isn't an attack or insult on either of you, and I hope it isn't taken that way. I have the highest respect for both of you, because I know you on some level. This thread however does not portray that same message.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

RaySuave said:


> Again, I am not after perpetual motion....somebody has a hard head.


Not true. You ARE after perpetual motion, whether you realize it or not. See this post by you:



RaySuave said:


> The application is for charging a battery. It will not be rotated directly by a motor....most likely a belt or chain arrangement harvesting rotational motion from a drive train.


Unless the alternator is on a stationary windmill and you somehow deliver the power to the moving vehicle - say, through microwaves, or perhaps a really long extension cord - then the alternator must by powered by the same motor driving the car which itself is powered from the battery pack on the car. You seem unable to grasp that for an alternator to produce electrical power it must be fed mechanical power. That is to say:

Current * Voltage = Torque * RPM

Batteries store energy, which is a measure of power over time. No energy conversion process is 100% efficent (even converting electrical energy to heat, since some of the energy goes into making magnetic fields). Thus, for an alternator to charge a battery at the rate of 1000W of electrical power you will have to supply it with more than 1000W of mechanical power. In your scheme, this mechanical power comes from the drive motor in the car, which itself is not 100% efficient in converting the electrical power from the very battery the alternator is recharging. Even if both the motor and alternator were 99% efficient you still end up with less net efficiency than simply leaving off the alternator. Go ahead, multiply 0.99 * 0.99 and I guarantee you it will be a smaller number than 0.99.

No matter how many times we explain this extremely simple concept to people like you it seems to never sink in, and inevitably you end up writing something along the lines of:



RaySuave said:


> You guys are driving people away from this message board with the unwarranted attacks...


To which I say, Good, as that is precisely the point. I don't want people like you clogging up this forum with your ridiculous/impossible perpetual motion schemes. There is a website specifically for cranks like you: overunity.com. Please take your crazy there.


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> Not true. You ARE after perpetual motion, whether you realize it or not. See this post by you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is my last time replying to any of your comments. I am not after a car that can run forever so stop explaining how impossible it is.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> ... I know it's frustrating when new people come and ask the same questions 500 times a year, but you don't have to answer them, don't waste your time. Don't bring the forum down to that level....


Yeah, I guess I'm getting burned out from having to read the same dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks alternator charging scheme. Maybe it's time I de-registered, a la Jack Rickard (I seem to have a similar streak of intolerance for the daft, deranged and deluded).


----------



## RaySuave (Mar 13, 2013)

rwaudio said:


> I know it's frustrating when new people come and ask the same questions 500 times a year, but you don't have to answer them, don't waste your time. Don't bring the forum down to that level.


I'm glad you posted to sort of defend my initial intent by this thread, seems like others would be intimidated. The crazy thing is that I never asked any questions about my idea, or anything that has to do with perpetual motion. I just asked for a suggestion on an alternator of the same type that I posted. Thats it. It seems like I was baited into posting my application so it can simply be trashed and I can be called names. These two wanna be message board Kings gonna twist my intent around to make it seem like I'm trying to prove something to the forum members. By their reaction, it seems like people are not welcome to the board if these two guys disagree with what each poster is trying to ultimately accomplish when they make a thread to ask a simple question.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thread closed by request of RaySuave.


----------

