# Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Hello Paul,

In my case I have two battery contactors and one main contactor. I have to 
have the battery contactors come on first, then the main contactor comes on 
next, or the controller will go in error, saying there is no battery power 
present at the main contactor when it closes.

I use a small control relay that comes off the ignition on position of the 
ignition switch that turns on the battery contactor coils. When the battery 
contactors come on, my battery indicators come on line, which verify's I 
have battery voltage.

Next, I turn the ignition switch to the start position which activates the 
precharge circuit and than the main contactor comes on.

There is no delay in this startup procedure. I can turn the ignition switch 
right through to start just like you would start up a engine.

Now as for having two contactors where there is always battery power present 
on the positive or main contactor, you may have to have the negative 
contactor come on at the same time or even a little before the main 
contactor.

When I had only two contactors at one time, sometimes I would get a no 
battery voltage at the controller error, because one contactor may come on a 
micro second before the other one would.

It is best to isolated the controller and motor circuit from the charging 
circuit while charging. It is found that if you are running a DC motor, the 
brush dust will track to the motor shaft and frame of the motor and finally 
back to a AC grounded vehicle frame which causes problems with a GFI 
circuit.

The next problem I had was having the battery traction cells in a aluminum 
battery case. No matter how much I clean the batteries, I still would get 
some conductance track from the top of the battery to the battery case and 
then to the vehicle frame.

To solve that problem, I replace the battery boxes with 1/4 inch thick 
fiberglass that was coated with a epoxy porcelain coating which is same 
stuff that is use on sinks. The batteries are space 1/2 inch from all sides 
and the battery box is space four inches from all steel body structures. 
The steel body structures surounding the battery boxes were also coated with 
a bedliner material.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 7:28 AM
Subject: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


>
> Hi all,
>
> I seems that I will need a contactor on both positive and negative to my
> controller since it keeps tripping the GFI on my charger. I am also going
> to add a precharge resistor across the positive contactor. If I do this
> will the negative contactor need to be closed first in order for precharge
> to occur? It seems to me that it will need to be closed to complete the
> circuit, but I find out everyday that there are more things I don't
> understand about all of this. Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
> -----
> Paul Kirchman
> "Electron Transport"
> www.evalbum.com/1588
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/precharge-and-two-contactors-tp19878740p19878740.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

It should be noted that the only way a ground fault on the battery side can
cause a GFI to trip is if the charger you are using isnt isolated?
So that begs the quetsion, is your charger isolated?

If it is, I would start chasing up what is causing that GFI to trip (it wont
be carbon buildup in the motor).

If it isn't isolated, and the GFI is triping, the what Rolan says will be
correct.

In any case, I would suggest having some warning or fail safe system in
place to warn of a ground fault (other than the mains GFI).
A ground fault in the vehicle could well cause the chasis/body to become
live.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Wednesday, 8 October 2008 10:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors

Hello Paul,

In my case I have two battery contactors and one main contactor. I have to
have the battery contactors come on first, then the main contactor comes on
next, or the controller will go in error, saying there is no battery power
present at the main contactor when it closes.

I use a small control relay that comes off the ignition on position of the
ignition switch that turns on the battery contactor coils. When the battery
contactors come on, my battery indicators come on line, which verify's I
have battery voltage.

Next, I turn the ignition switch to the start position which activates the
precharge circuit and than the main contactor comes on.

There is no delay in this startup procedure. I can turn the ignition switch
right through to start just like you would start up a engine.

Now as for having two contactors where there is always battery power present
on the positive or main contactor, you may have to have the negative
contactor come on at the same time or even a little before the main
contactor.

When I had only two contactors at one time, sometimes I would get a no
battery voltage at the controller error, because one contactor may come on a
micro second before the other one would.

It is best to isolated the controller and motor circuit from the charging
circuit while charging. It is found that if you are running a DC motor, the
brush dust will track to the motor shaft and frame of the motor and finally
back to a AC grounded vehicle frame which causes problems with a GFI
circuit.

The next problem I had was having the battery traction cells in a aluminum
battery case. No matter how much I clean the batteries, I still would get
some conductance track from the top of the battery to the battery case and
then to the vehicle frame.

To solve that problem, I replace the battery boxes with 1/4 inch thick
fiberglass that was coated with a epoxy porcelain coating which is same
stuff that is use on sinks. The batteries are space 1/2 inch from all sides
and the battery box is space four inches from all steel body structures. 
The steel body structures surounding the battery boxes were also coated with
a bedliner material.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 7:28 AM
Subject: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


>
> Hi all,
>
> I seems that I will need a contactor on both positive and negative to my
> controller since it keeps tripping the GFI on my charger. I am also going
> to add a precharge resistor across the positive contactor. If I do this
> will the negative contactor need to be closed first in order for precharge
> to occur? It seems to me that it will need to be closed to complete the
> circuit, but I find out everyday that there are more things I don't
> understand about all of this. Thanks.
>
> Paul
>
> -----
> Paul Kirchman
> "Electron Transport"
> www.evalbum.com/1588
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
>
http://www.nabble.com/precharge-and-two-contactors-tp19878740p19878740.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Thanks Roland, That's a nice setup and an explaination of what is probably
happening in my case with the GFI. I have a Logisystems controller,
basically a clone of a Curtis I think. If I am understanding what you are
saying the negative will need to be on for precharge to occur. I have seen
lots of reference to "on" and "start" positions for the key. Don't most
cars "start" position for the key come back to the "on" position after you
stop turning the key? Isn't there sometimes an "accessory" position then
"on" then "start"? Since the key drops back from "start" to "on" when you
let go won't that open your contactor when you let go of the key?

Paul





> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > Hello Paul,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Matt,
I have a Russco charger, which I understand is not isolated. The GFI seems
to be on the controller. When I charge with the controller out of the
circuit the GFI does not trip. I do detect voltage in the chassis, but only
2 or 3 milliamps of current. I am told this is not uncommon, but I'm not
happy about it. I don't know if this would be considered a "live" chassis.
Paul



It should be noted that the only way a ground fault on the battery side can
cause a GFI to trip is if the charger you are using isnt isolated?
So that begs the quetsion, is your charger isolated?

If it is, I would start chasing up what is causing that GFI to trip (it wont
be carbon buildup in the motor).

If it isn't isolated, and the GFI is triping, the what Rolan says will be
correct.

In any case, I would suggest having some warning or fail safe system in
place to warn of a ground fault (other than the mains GFI).
A ground fault in the vehicle could well cause the chasis/body to become
live.

Matt 

-----
Paul Kirchman
"Electron Transport"
www.evalbum.com/1588
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/precharge-and-two-contactors-tp19878740p19880908.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

I get confused by text descriptions. Mostly because sometimes people
have different meanings for the same word. I've uploaded an image of
my two contactor curtis/logisystems style system here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jonGlauser/Misc#5254805565783808578

It might clear up some thoughts, or make it worse!
another idea: I have a russco also, they are NOT isolated (dont touch
the battery circuit.. it will shock you.. happens to me often). I have
to plug it into a GFI outlet in my garage. I've heard that two GFIs in
series may cause false tripping. Possibility?

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

2 GFI's in series shouldn't cause tripping, if all is connected correctly.
Doing so may reduce the effectiveness of the 2-3ma limit however.

>From what I understand,
A GFI is just a current measuring device across the neutral wire and the
earth wire (ie neutral and earth are common).
If there is a conductive path from the live wire to the earth, the GFI
detects the current flowing back to the neutral, (through the GFI) and opens
the live.

So if you wire 2 in series, there are two GFI's through which the current
can flow through, and potentially twice the max 2-3ma before one trips.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jon Glauser
Sent: Wednesday, 8 October 2008 11:35 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors

I get confused by text descriptions. Mostly because sometimes people have
different meanings for the same word. I've uploaded an image of my two
contactor curtis/logisystems style system here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jonGlauser/Misc#5254805565783808578

It might clear up some thoughts, or make it worse!
another idea: I have a russco also, they are NOT isolated (dont touch the
battery circuit.. it will shock you.. happens to me often). I have to plug
it into a GFI outlet in my garage. I've heard that two GFIs in series may
cause false tripping. Possibility?

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Hi Paul,

Depending upon the source of the leak (dust buildup, acid mist etc) the
extent of the ground leakage will increase, eventually to the point where
the chasis really will be live (which I would consider to be at 10ma or
more)
For you its probably dust buildup in the motor.

One solution (my favourite) is to use contactors in the middle of the pack,
at every 48v block, and on both the negative and the positive.

The contactor on the negatve will isolate the controller and motor whenever
the ignition is off.
The contactors in the centre will break up the voltages for when you are
working on the pack or the wiring (actually contactors may be over kill,
since you are using a single string charger. anderson connectors between
your battery boxes may suffice)

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Paul Kirchman
Sent: Wednesday, 8 October 2008 11:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


Matt,
I have a Russco charger, which I understand is not isolated. The GFI seems
to be on the controller. When I charge with the controller out of the
circuit the GFI does not trip. I do detect voltage in the chassis, but only
2 or 3 milliamps of current. I am told this is not uncommon, but I'm not
happy about it. I don't know if this would be considered a "live" chassis.
Paul



It should be noted that the only way a ground fault on the battery side can
cause a GFI to trip is if the charger you are using isnt isolated?
So that begs the quetsion, is your charger isolated?

If it is, I would start chasing up what is causing that GFI to trip (it wont
be carbon buildup in the motor).

If it isn't isolated, and the GFI is triping, the what Rolan says will be
correct.

In any case, I would suggest having some warning or fail safe system in
place to warn of a ground fault (other than the mains GFI).
A ground fault in the vehicle could well cause the chasis/body to become
live.

Matt 

-----
Paul Kirchman
"Electron Transport"
www.evalbum.com/1588
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/precharge-and-two-contactors-tp19878740p19880908.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.7.5 - Release Date: 28/09/2008 12:00
AM


_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

In a Zilla controller I have, the ignition start position is a momentary 
position. Not a maintain contact. It is like a momentary start station 
where you push a momentary switch. The circuit than holds that circuit on 
until the ignition switch goes to the off position.

You can search the web on how a momentary circuit is done by first studying 
a holding relay circuit and than converting it to a solid state holding 
circuit.

Just type in your search engine: Momentary holding circuits.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


>
> Thanks Roland, That's a nice setup and an explaination of what is probably
> happening in my case with the GFI. I have a Logisystems controller,
> basically a clone of a Curtis I think. If I am understanding what you are
> saying the negative will need to be on for precharge to occur. I have 
> seen
> lots of reference to "on" and "start" positions for the key. Don't most
> cars "start" position for the key come back to the "on" position after you
> stop turning the key? Isn't there sometimes an "accessory" position then
> "on" then "start"? Since the key drops back from "start" to "on" when you
> let go won't that open your contactor when you let go of the key?
>
> Paul
>
>
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Paul,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Jon,
Wow, nice diagram! Beats my hand drawn ones in the log I am keeping. It
looks like you have done what I was planning with the two contactors. So the
contactors come on sequentially with the key at "on" then "run". I don't
know that my key swithch has enough positions. When you turn it all the
way, where you would have engaged the former starter in the ICE version, it
bounces back to the running position when you let go. On yours the negative
closes first I think, but, back to the original question, is this necessary
or could both contactors come on at the same time? 

My GFI on the Russco trips on a GFI plug and also on one that is not, so
that is not the problem.
Paul




> Jon Glauser-2 wrote:
> >
> > I get confused by text descriptions. Mostly because sometimes people
> > have different meanings for the same word. I've uploaded an image of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Yes, with two contactors:
Turn the ignition key to "on" and the negative contactor closes - low 
current flows through the precharge resistor, charging the caps in the 
controller.
Turn the ign key to start latching the positive contactor and you are 
good to go.
Of course, you must wire the positive contactor with a second smaller 
bosch type relay to keep it "latched" (is my personal term) closed.
Bob




> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I seems that I will need a contactor on both positive and negative to my
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

A: you want the negative contactor to come on first, to allow the
pre-charge into the controller before you close the positive
contactor. If you close both at the same time then there is no
pre-charge, because the positive contactor is in parallel with the
pre-charge resistor.

My diagram started as many sketches before it looked like this! In my
circuit I have a pack voltage detect relay that enables the positive
contactor when the pack voltage is above a minimum voltage. You can't
drive until the controller is charged. It also drives a dashboard
light that indicates that the controller is not ready, if there is a
power loss while driving, or if you pull the pack down way too low!

Most key switches have 'off', 'accessory', 'run', and 'start'. the
'start' position is momentary. 'accessory' turns off when in the
'start' position. 'run' has power in the 'start' and 'run' position.
Thats what I designed my circuit for.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary start and
stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off?





> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > Yes, with two contactors:
> > Turn the ignition key to "on" and the negative contactor closes - low
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary start and
stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off? If that's right
where did you get it? I can't find anything like that.
Paul





> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > Yes, with two contactors:
> > Turn the ignition key to "on" and the negative contactor closes - low
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

I'm jumping in here a little, Bob may have a better way but I've used them 
to wire up headlight dimmers in kit cars. Also VW bugs had them for the 
headlight dimmer.
http://www.watsons-streetworks.com/brake_switches.html See near the middle 
of the page.

Chris



> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary
> > start and stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off?
> > If that's right where did you get it? I can't find anything like
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Yes, everything goes off with the key.
On the "latching" relay, you run the hot 12v switched wire back to the 
contacts - so that as long as there is power, the relay will keep itself 
(and the Secondary Main Contactor) closed.
As long as the ignition is "on", it will stay closed - I have not yet 
experienced a road bump/pot hole with enough force to bounce things 
open, but a simple flick of the key to start will set things back to right.
Bob




> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary start and
> > stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

It is a regular automotive "bosch" type relay.

Wire the coil to click shut with the pulse from the "start" position of 
the ignition key. This will close the bosch relay momentarily.
Wire the contacts to close the Secondary Main Contactor - (the one with 
the pre-charge resistor on it) This will energise the Big Contactor.
And here's the "trick" run another wire from the switched contact to the 
hot side of the coil. This is the one which will keep things closed as 
long as there is ignition power.
I've seen pictures on various schematics here on line. Draw it on paper, 
picture the electrons flowing - it should make sense.
Maybe somebody with graphics skills can draw us a picture.
Bob




> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary start and
> > stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off? If that's right
> > where did you get it? I can't find anything like that.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

I haven't installed my Zilla yet but my understanding is that the Zilla does
not require the "start circuit" to remain closed. In other words the
circuit that signals the Hairball to close the positive contactor does not
need to remain closed.

>From the Zilla manual:

"The start input needs only a momentary activation to start the controller."

Please correct me if I am wrong since I'm planning on running the wire that
used to go to the starter directly to the appropriate Hairball input.

Barry Oppenheim
New Hope, PA
www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of Robert Brown
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


It is a regular automotive "bosch" type relay.

Wire the coil to click shut with the pulse from the "start" position of
the ignition key. This will close the bosch relay momentarily.
Wire the contacts to close the Secondary Main Contactor - (the one with
the pre-charge resistor on it) This will energise the Big Contactor.
And here's the "trick" run another wire from the switched contact to the
hot side of the coil. This is the one which will keep things closed as
long as there is ignition power.
I've seen pictures on various schematics here on line. Draw it on paper,
picture the electrons flowing - it should make sense.
Maybe somebody with graphics skills can draw us a picture.
Bob




> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary start
> and
> > stays closed and then can open again when the key goes off? If that's
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Hello Barry,

Yes, you can use the start switch which is a momentary switch to activated =

the main contactor threw the hairball module. The ignition ON position can =

go to Pin #3 (key input) and the ignition START position can go to Pin #4. =

Pin #5 goes to the main contactor coil.

NOTE OF CAUTION:

Otmar of Caf=E9 Electric should have sent you a suppressor diode that is =

connected across the 12 volt contactor coil. This keeps the inductive =

kickback surge suppressor when the contactors turns off.

In large contactors where this coil amp may be 4 amps or over, it may take =

out the driver circuit in the hairball if you do not use a suppressor acros=
s =

the coil.

Either use the one Otmar sent you or you can use a NTE4933 Zener Overvoltag=
e =

Tranisient Suppressor which is Bidirectional, meaning you can install the =

diode in either direction.

In my EV, I do not connect the Pin #5 (main contactor coil circuit) to my =

Main Contactor Coil. I run the Pin #5 circuit to a control relay which tha=
n =

takes the ignition power from the ignition ON circuit of the ignition =

switch. I than had to fuse this with a 8 amp slow blow fuse because my mai=
n =

contactor coil draws 6 amps.

The 4 amp fuses that are use on the hairball will not hold up on my large =

CableForm contactors.

I also have a 12 volt relay that turns on the battery contactors first that =

comes off the ignition ON position, then the main contactor comes on next =

when the ignition switch is turn to the START position.

As soon as you get the precharge indicator on, then you can let go of the =

ignition switch in the START position, it will go back to the ignition ON =

position. Then both indicator lights should go off.

You must have at least over 10.5 VDC on this circuit, it is best to keep it =

up to 14.5 volts if you have this circuit on a DC-DC converter or if using =
a =

accessory battery, try to keep it above 12 volts. If you let the voltage =

drop too low, then one of the indicator lights will come on, which means LO=
W =

BATTERY VOLTAGE and the main contactor may not close or try to close.

This circuit mod of the START circuit only allows about 0.05 amps on this =

circuit. I have been running this type of circuit using the Zilla for 6 =

years now and 27 years using another type of controller which uses line =

voltage coils (the same voltage of the battery pack) using Square D glass =

plug in 12 volt coil control relays with 250 volt contact ratings.

If you are only switching a 12 volt circuit with a 12 volt relay using a 12 =

volt coil, you can use the standard Bosch 12 volt relays you can get at any =

auto parts store.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Barry Oppenheim" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


> I haven't installed my Zilla yet but my understanding is that the Zilla =

> does
> not require the "start circuit" to remain closed. In other words the
> circuit that signals the Hairball to close the positive contactor does not
> need to remain closed.
>
> >From the Zilla manual:
>
> "The start input needs only a momentary activation to start the =

> controller."
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong since I'm planning on running the wire =

> that
> used to go to the starter directly to the appropriate Hairball input.
>
> Barry Oppenheim
> New Hope, PA
> www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
>
=


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Bob,
That's a cool trick, but doesn't that reference the pack voltage to the
chassis through the coil of the relay? It gave me an idea of how I could do
the same thing with two isolated relays though, so thanks for the tip.
Paul





> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > It is a regular automotive "bosch" type relay.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

He specifically mentioned using it with a regular automotive relay. This
suggests that you would use that trick with a 12V relay acting as the latch,
then use the output of that to power the coil of the high voltage contactor.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Paul Kirchman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Bob,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Paul,
No, the only interconnection is at the 12vdc level, not the traction 
pack voltage. You connect the 12 volt controlled contact of the extra 
relay with the 12v (switched) wire on it's own coil - that allows it to 
keep itself closed as long as ignition power is on.
.
And use the diodes on the coils to prevent the emf buildup/kickback 
thing. (I don't exactly understand that emf thing, but I do use the 
diodes on every relay coil, based on the collective wisdom of the List).
Bob




> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> > Bob,
> > That's a cool trick, but doesn't that reference the pack voltage to the
> > chassis through the coil of the relay? It gave me an idea of how I could do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Ohhh, the switched contact from the relay, I see. Even cooler. I thought he
meant from the swiched secondary contactor. Thanks.
Paul



Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> He specifically mentioned using it with a regular automotive relay. This
> suggests that you would use that trick with a 12V relay acting as the
> latch,
> then use the output of that to power the coil of the high voltage
> contactor.
> 
> -Morgan LaMoore
> 
>


> Paul Kirchman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Bob,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Here is a simple momentary circuit we use all the time when we wire up 
momentary control stations for a motor controller.

o-----------------------------o |
| _|_ _|_
| ___ ___ 2 pole relay or contactor
| START | | one pole is use for a
| ____ | | holding contact for the
o---o o----------------------o coil
| NO |
| |
o---o__o---o ( ) coil
NC | |
| |
OFF o o
+ -

Theory of Operation:

The NO is a momentary contact as a STARTER position in a ignition sw.
The NC is a maintain contact as the ignition ON position in a ign. sw.

The NC switch provides power to the momentary switch and to the holding 
contact of the relay or contactor. In large contactors we add on small 
auxially contacts to be use as a holding contact.

The relay coil is energize and both the holding contactor and power 
contactor is close.

The holding contact now supplies power to the coil.

The operator now can release the start buttom and the coil still remain 
energize.

Pressing the OFF switch ( or ignition to the OFF position) the coil is now 
de-energize and the main contacts open.

Roland

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors


>
> Bob,
> That's a cool trick, but doesn't that reference the pack voltage to the
> chassis through the coil of the relay? It gave me an idea of how I could 
> do
> the same thing with two isolated relays though, so thanks for the tip.
> Paul
>
>
>


> > BBrown wrote:
> > >
> > > It is a regular automotive "bosch" type relay.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

You can easily make a latching relay with two standard 12v relays, a 
momentary pushbutton, and a diode.

goto http://www.the12volt.com/relays/page5.asp

click on link for "Momentary to Constant Output"

Note, when I built the example circuit, the green wire had to be 
momentarilry connected to the purple wire (NOT GROUND) to close and 
latch the relay(s). It will stay latched until you remove power (red 
wire).

If you are new to automototive wiring, http://www.the12volt.com/ is an 
excellent reference.
Especially their section on relays, you can make cheap automotive 
relays do all kinds of interesting things.


Paul
http://www.3prongpower.com









> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> 
> >
> > Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*



> dave cover wrote:
> 
> > In theory I can shut 'er down by
> > turning off the ignition in the (unlikely) event of a controller
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Paul,
That is pretty much what I've done, the smaller bosch relay and the HV 
Contactor make up the two relays in the photo referenced on that page.
I knew I'd seen it pictured somewhere.
Bob


Paul wrote:
> You can easily make a latching relay with two standard 12v relays, a 
> momentary pushbutton, and a diode.
>
> goto http://www.the12volt.com/relays/page5.asp
>
> click on link for "Momentary to Constant Output"
>
> Note, when I built the example circuit, the green wire had to be 
> momentarilry connected to the purple wire (NOT GROUND) to close and 
> latch the relay(s). It will stay latched until you remove power (red 
> wire).
>
> If you are new to automototive wiring, http://www.the12volt.com/ is an 
> excellent reference.
> Especially their section on relays, you can make cheap automotive 
> relays do all kinds of interesting things.
>
>
> Paul
> http://www.3prongpower.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


> Paul Kirchman wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Sounds good. So you have a relay that latches with the momentary
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*



> On 9 Oct 2008 at 16:16, dave cover wrote:
> 
> > I am worried about shutting down the Zilla while under power. I don't know how
> > much smoke would be released.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*



> dave cover wrote:
> 
> > I am worried about shutting down the Zilla while under power. I don't
> > know
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] precharge and two contactors*

Don't worry about damaging the Zilla by shutting it down under power.
The Zilla won't be hurt.

Losing power is a fairly common problem, and it's fairly easy to
protect against. With how rock-solid Otmar designed the Zilla, I'd be
amazed if you could break it by opening a contactor in series with the
input.

-Morgan LaMoore



> dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> ...


----------

