# Hearse Cadillac 1987



## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

Hello everyone! Newbie here! I'm looking to convert my old hearse into an electric car! I got lots of room and great weight support as you would expect from a hearse but is a heavy car, about 2.5 tons kinda heavy. What do you guys think? How many batteries? Is it feasible?


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

Here's a picture!


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

And again  without my late father this time


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

There is a guy here in reno that has I believe a '72. Belongs to the local electric car club. Good person to find and ask.


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

Oh that would be good, indeed! I tried findind their website but haven't. I live in Canada myself, how do you reckon I could reach that guy? 
Thank you so much!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I just did a Google search for "electric hearse Reno" and even the short summary on the search results page provides a name (William Brinsmead), and reading one of them provides a website (electricauto.org). It shouldn't be too tough to track him down.


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

Oh! Sorry about that but thank you very much for that info! I will track him down now and let you guys know how it goes! Thank you for your time


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Arkhamer said:


> Oh! Sorry about that but thank you very much for that info! I will track him down now and let you guys know how it goes! Thank you for your time


No problem... just noting that he seems to is surprisingly easy to find.


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

I got in touch with Mr Brimstead  Thank you for the guidance, I can now start working on that and keep you all updated!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Arkhamer said:


> I got in touch with Mr Brimstead  Thank you for the guidance, I can now start working on that and keep you all updated!


That was quick! 

Have fun with the project.


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

It will be grand and I can't wait to get started


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## Jonbickford (Feb 27, 2018)

it's definitely very cool and a great idea! but be forewarned you're gonna need a LOT of batteries to move that thing very far at speed. and a lot of batteries is expensive!would make a very cool car though!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Arkhamer said:


> I got lots of room and great weight support as you would expect from a hearse but is a heavy car, about 2.5 tons kinda heavy.


The Tesla Model S is around 2.5 tons so you'll probably be ok assuming the existing engine and transmission are a significant proportion of your total weight.



Arkhamer said:


> How many batteries?


That really depends on your range requirements and budget. How far do you want to drive and how much do you want to spend on the conversion?


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

It's true that most of that weight must come from the engine and all! Plus, I will remove the casket rollers, which weight around 500lbs! It will also free an area about 1ft*4ft*8ft! (roughly!) So I thought it could host quite a lot of batteries if I can somehow fit them there. I would, ideally, in my wildest dreams, like to have a minimum of 300 km range (190 miles or so) and I'm ready to invest around 20-30k depending on what is actually feasible. I'm looking to keep that car for a loooong time and the way I see it, if it ends up costing the same as a brand new car, it'll still be worth it. I paid the hearse a bit more than 1000$ so I can still invest quite a bit


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Or keep the casket rollers and be able to put a 'longe range' battery on it for long trips....in a casket of course!


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

That's an idea but I thought I could stow batteries where the rollers are now, which would put them underneath the "floorboard" of trunk. What is a long range battery, exactly? Like an extra battery to add range to what I would normally use? But to put batteries in a casket is a cool idea! But I just might put my coffin bed in there instead...  Oooor try to do something like those campers


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Arkhamer said:


> I would, ideally, in my wildest dreams, like to have a minimum of 300 km range (190 miles or so) and I'm ready to invest around 20-30k depending on what is actually feasible.


I think we are looking at a Tesla based solution because we know that it can deliver the range and move 2.5 tons easily.

I've no idea what the existing drivetrain looks like but I would follow Damien (here) and Chris (here) examples and install a single Tesla drive unit.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Arkhamer said:


> What is a long range battery, exactly?


I think many would describe an electric car with a range over 150 miles as "long range".

Here is a typical solution based on Tesla battery modules. In this example I've shown 14 modules but today I'm using 12. In your long range conversion you'd want to install 16 if possible.

Lots more information on the Tesla modules here


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

Yeah, that sounds good. From my brief research, Tesla had the strongest pull and longest range and I won't shy away from trying to get the most I can get since I plan on using the hearse as a camper. I already camp with it, with a SUV tent at the back but I'd like to really turn it into a camper. Of course, I will always have to keep weight in mind and build it as lightweight as possible but I think it's feasible, especially if teslas can push all that stuff. But you know, if I had my way, I'd just drive an electric Gigahorse!


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

I have a semi related question. If I were to go far and camp in the woods let's say without anywhere to plug it, is there anything I could do to be able to leave the next day? Keep an extra battery? Could I charge a battery from outside of town at all? Solar, maybe? Sounds dubious. But I could cover the whole top of the hearse with solar panels... But I wonder if the energy collected would really help. Maybe for the rest of the stuff onboard? Like a mini fridge and laptop and such. I'm just brainstorming aloud  
I know my plans are huge, heavy and expensive but eh, what else is life for?


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## Arkhamer (Mar 3, 2018)

So many great inputs and a lot of amazing reading to do! Thank you all so very much!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Arkhamer said:


> I have a semi related question. If I were to go far and camp in the woods let's say without anywhere to plug it, is there anything I could do to be able to leave the next day? Keep an extra battery? Could I charge a battery from outside of town at all? Solar, maybe?


Neither solar nor an extra battery would offer a realistic solution to recharging your traction battery. A small petrol/gas generator (~3kW) would recharge the battery but take at least 24 hours assuming you have enough fuel and don't mind the noise. Realistically you probably want to ensure you can 'fill' the battery before entering the woods (remember lots RV campsite have hook ups that can be used for EV charging).

Solar will help charge your leisure battery. The key is to keep weight and drag to a minimum. I like the flexible panels from EVTV (here).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Arkhamer said:


> Solar, maybe? Sounds dubious. But I could cover the whole top of the hearse with solar panels... But I wonder if the energy collected would really help. Maybe for the rest of the stuff onboard? Like a mini fridge and laptop and such.


Yes, the size of solar array that you can fit on the roof could keep the minor electrical energy consumers from further depleting your battery while you are camped. Charging back up to drive again? No, not unless you are camping with near-zero power use and staying for days or weeks before driving again.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Arkhamer said:


> From my brief research, Tesla had the strongest pull and longest range ...


Tesla range is long only because Tesla cars come with enormous batteries. The hearse will not go nearly as far as a Tesla car on the same energy (due to weight and aero drag), so plan on *lots* of battery for long range. For a sample of potential range, look at the range that Tesla Model X drivers are getting while towing small one-ton travel trailers.

Tesla drive units are known to be able to push a lot of weight because Tesla cars are heavy, and they're heavy because of the battery.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I've no idea what the existing drivetrain looks like but I would follow Damien (here) and Chris (here) examples and install a single Tesla drive unit.


It looks like any common truck or older large car: a big V8 engine and automatic transmission longitudinal in the front, with a shaft to a live beam axle in the rear.
EDIT: _... or maybe not - see following discussion._

Both of those examples have an independent rear suspension which can (or probably will, in the case of the Skyline) accommodate a Tesla drive unit mounted in the rear; to do that in the hearse would mean a complete replacement of the rear suspension with something independent and completely different from the original. A Tesla drive unit (or a drive unit from almost any other EV, although most wouldn't be strong enough) could also be mounted in the front, along with a conversion to front wheel drive.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Both of those examples have an independent rear suspension which can (or probably will, in the case of the Skyline) accommodate a Tesla drive unit mounted in the rear; to do that in the hearse would mean a complete replacement of the rear suspension with something independent and completely different from the original.


I hope these builds are encouraging people to put away their fear when I comes to reworking the suspension system. I've yet to find anyone in the custom car world who sees this as a big issue


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I hope these builds are encouraging people to put away their fear when I comes to reworking the suspension system. I've yet to find anyone in the custom car world who sees this as a big issue


... and yet the vast majority of custom car project do not fundamentally change the suspension type, and in decades of being an auto enthusiast I have yet to meet anyone who has built a custom IRS for street use; it is done, but not by most people building custom cars. Most custom cars which do go to independent from beam axle use custom frames mounting OEM or ready-made aftermarket suspensions, and drop the desired body on top.... probably not the scale of work expected for the hearse project. Both of the projects here that have been mentioned are examples of that: the Skyline is planned to use the stock suspension (as is the 300ZX with the same suspension), and the BMW is a swap to a simpler suspension of the same brand, because the builder couldn't make the Tesla drive unit work with the original suspension. Is there a good example anywhere in DIY Electric Car of someone replacing a beam axle with an independent setup?

Yes, IRS is possible. Maybe a Ford Expedition complete suspension, although it would need a custom subframe, or custom rear frame section, or mating the Expedition rear frame to the Cadillac rails (if they are miraculously compatible). Common OEM IRS choices for custom car builders (e.g. Corvette) are generally unsuitable, as they would not have sufficient axle capacity.

Unfortunately, unlike a VW bus, there is no bolt-in off-the-shelf aftermarket complete IRS available for an old GM station wagon. 



Now, having said all of this about live beam axles in the rear... I may have been mistaken about the stock configuration, and the 1987 Cadillac hearse may be an example of a very brief period (three years) in which Cadillac actually built this type of vehicle with *front wheel drive*; the limousine was, but hearses can be oddball. In that case, it had a transversely mounted V8, and a Tesla drive unit or similar can (and almost must) go in the front, in a modified subframe, adapted to Cadillac half shafts. Alternatively, any motor can do on the original automatic transaxle, with all of the messiness which that entails.

If this hearse is on the Series 75 platform with front wheel drive, it is also a unibody (based on the C-Body), not body-on-frame.


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## hondarider90 (Jan 14, 2018)

As far as camping you will have well more than enough battery provided you enter the woods with a decent charge. With the high voltage you have I would look into adding the Tesla HVAC unit to the vehicle, you could also add in an inverter somewhere that would power the fridge, hot plate, tv, etc. They're relatively efficient and can keep the vehicle nice and cool or nice and toasty and are set up for the tesla voltage as is. You probably have enough room with the size of that vehicle to go with a whole pack, you just might need to spread it out a bit. You'll have plenty of room under hood. That area was designed to hold some of the biggest big blocks around, almost 600 cubic inches some of those old Cadillacs had.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

hondarider90 said:


> You'll have plenty of room under hood. That area was designed to hold some of the biggest big blocks around, almost 600 cubic inches some of those old Cadillacs had.


Or maybe not... if this is on the short-lived front-wheel-drive/unibody generation of the Series 75 platform, it didn't come with those big old engines, just the old HT-4100 or LT8 4.1 L V8. It's still a big engine bay.


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## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

Caddilac made the Eldorado front wheel drive in the 70s with a longitudinal mounted V8 engine. The front axles should easily hold the torque and he could possibly swap the front suspension in and make it a front wheel drive hearse


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I think we need _Arkhamer _back for clarification of what chassis this hearse is built on... but he hasn't visited the forum since the day he started this thread.



tinkeringgreg said:


> Caddilac made the Eldorado front wheel drive in the 70s with a longitudinal mounted V8 engine. The front axles should easily hold the torque and he could possibly swap the front suspension in and make it a front wheel drive hearse


If this 1987 is on the same platform as the same-year limousine, it is already front wheel drive (with a transverse engine) and would be suitable for a front motor installation without a complex swap to a different suspension.

If it has a traditional rear-drive chassis, the Toronado/Eldorado/Motorhome setup would work, hopefully without resorting to use of the transaxle, which is now rare and was only available as an automatic (the THM425) which probably wouldn't fit a motor suitable for this heavy vehicle. But why would anyone want this vehicle to be front-drive?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Arkhamer said:


> I have a semi related question. If I were to go far and camp in the woods let's say without anywhere to plug it, is there anything I could do to be able to leave the next day? Keep an extra battery? Could I charge a battery from outside of town at all? Solar, maybe? Sounds dubious. But I could cover the whole top of the hearse with solar panels... But I wonder if the energy collected would really help. Maybe for the rest of the stuff onboard? Like a mini fridge and laptop and such. I'm just brainstorming aloud
> I know my plans are huge, heavy and expensive but eh, what else is life for?


I am a total newb to this forum, and to EV building in general. . . (should probably make a post to introduce myself.) I am interested in your project, because I am planning a long-term goal of converting an RV with a similar weight rating. 

I was crunching some numbers on the solar idea, and forgive my ignorant optimism, but I think it could work!

Kevin Sharpe was mentioning using 16 Tesla battery modules. Looks to me like these would have a combined AH rating of about 4,000 AH. 

If you slathered the whole roof (maybe even the hood?) with the highest efficient solar cells, (https://www.ebay.com/itm/single-6x6...373800&hash=item28298e94d1:g:eCQAAOSwN2VZSb36), you might be able to squeeze 1,500Watts onto the vehicle. (cost in the $4-5k range.) 

According to the charge-time formula:
https://gogreensolar.uservoice.com/...ong-will-it-take-a-solar-panel-to-charge-a-ba

(4,000AH * 1.15) / (1,500W / 22V) = 67 hours of charging (from an absolutely drained battery.) Being optimistic again, assume 8 hours of good light/day in the Summer, and you'd be back on the road with a full charge in 8 days!

Maybe reduce the range expectations just a little, don't drain the battery down all the way, and you might have a nice little camping trip! 

If you build the "panel" out of straight cells to fit it smoothly to the body of the hearse, and coat it with something weather-proof, (haven't researched this yet,) you might really cut down on the weight of the solar and the drag too~

A note on my above charge-time calculation. . . you'd probably want to use more than a 22V motor, but the numbers should work out the same. 

I would love to hear feedback on these rough estimated numbers! Will help for my future RV project as well. . . will make an intro-post soon!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> If you slathered the whole roof (maybe even the hood?) with the highest efficient solar cells, (https://www.ebay.com/itm/single-6x6...373800&hash=item28298e94d1:g:eCQAAOSwN2VZSb36), you might be able to squeeze 1,500Watts onto the vehicle. (cost in the $4-5k range.)
> 
> According to the charge-time formula:
> https://gogreensolar.uservoice.com/...ong-will-it-take-a-solar-panel-to-charge-a-ba
> ...


Okay, but...


Reduce the peak output of the solar panels substantially, given the reality of available area.
Greatly reduce the hours per day of equivalent output. 8 hours would be fine if the weather was clear all day every day, and if the panels were tilted to exactly face the sun (including tracking in elevation and azimuth to follow the sun from sunrise to sunset). Horizontal panels only work at their peak at the equator, and even then only at noon... on a sunny day.



Meni Menindorf said:


> A note on my above charge-time calculation. . . you'd probably want to use more than a 22V motor, but the numbers should work out the same.


In practical terms, a vehicle is too small to run a solar array at a reasonable EV battery voltage, and solution is a DC-to-DC converter/charger to take the solar panel output (at ~14-18 V or ~28-36 V) and convert it up to battery voltage.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Okay, but...
> 
> 
> Reduce the peak output of the solar panels substantially, given the reality of available area.
> ...



You are absolutely right about the real-world, less-than-ideal conditions would dramatically reduce the performance of a full recharge in a week's time. That being said, projects like this make me feel it is possible/productive to combine solar and EV in a meaningful way. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZ1zbqAGA0&t=

I was basing the 1,500W on the size of a 4x4mm cell, and this was also based on the size of the roof of my RV. Not sure how the hearse compares, but I don't think this is too far off. (could be missing something though?) At ~375 cells, 0.55V/cell, theoretically this could be wired 180s2p, which would yield 99V to charge with, which should be more than plenty for an 80V motor/battery? Am I missing something here though. . . ? 

More inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWBqQa7IXWU&t=


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I was basing the 1,500W on the size of a 4x4mm cell, and this was also based on the size of the roof of my RV. Not sure how the hearse compares, but I don't think this is too far off. (could be missing something though?)


4x4 inch?
While a huge car, the hearse is a small RV - shorter and much narrower than even a typical Class C. It also has a long hood, so if the roof if the only practical mounting location, it's substantially smaller than the footprint of the vehicle.



Meni Menindorf said:


> At ~375 cells, 0.55V/cell, theoretically this could be wired 180s2p, which would yield 99V to charge with, which should be more than plenty for an 80V motor/battery? Am I missing something here though. . . ?


If you series all cells, the current through all cells will limited by the solar exposure of the cell with the least exposure; this is why a small shadow on part of a panel can dramatically reduce the output of the whole panel.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> More inspiration:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWBqQa7IXWU&t=


I didn't bother watching or listening to the video (that's usually a waste of time), but there is attached text, so I read that.

The huge array area of 31 square metres is the result of covering the walls. While this can be useful (the wall works better than the roof at the ends of the day at at high latitude), of course opposite walls will never seen direct sunlight at the same time, and even when the walls and roof are both exposed, they will never both be properly aimed at the same time. The awning will shade the right-side wall whenever it is used, and they even put cells facing down under the bunk area... obviously, the builder wasn't paying for the panels!  The 3000 watt nominal peak power could not be met even in ideal full sun conditions - it might be good for several hundered watts in ideal conditions... with the awning retracted.

Here's an article about it:
Dethleffs solar-assisted electric motorhome concept unveiled
From these descriptions, I doubt that this RV has ever been used - it may not have been driven. There's no range measurement, and the published guess is based on an empty Iveco van, not this RV.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Hey Arkhamer,

I'm curious to hear how this project is coming along! It sure looks like a cool one~

I'm working on a similar larger/heavier EV conversion so I'm interested to hear what you've been learning, and how your project/vision is developing! 

~Meni


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