# ElectroCraft EVMTC 60-192V DC 400A Controller



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I saw few posts scattered across few threads about this controller. I figured it deserves its own thread by now. Lets collect all the info we have about this controller in one place, please. At this time all I know is this Web site http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/dc.html and that some folks from this forum are looking at it and even visited this shop. I also heard its based on IGBT instead of MOSFETs, although I have not confirmed it for 100% yet. It looks like a small business, but very promising. I would love to hear first hand from someone who actually runs this in EV.
> 
> Those folks who have any info, please post here. Thanks


I visited his shop. The company is called Electrocraft. His controller is IGBT based, hence the higher voltage capacity. Rob (RKM - intro'd me to this co.) and I have been in contact with the owner, Darius, for a few months now. I am not an EE, but I have asked a lot of questions over this time period. What would you like to know? BTW, Darius did provide references and Rob did make contact with some of them. I am planning to buy at least a cotroller from Darius in the near future. 

His 500 amp unit looks like this. This unit has 680 amp IGBT capacity limited to 500 amps by a monitored shunt. PWM is cut short if current exceeds this limit. This 500 amp unit retails for $895 Canadian. I have had discussions with Darius regarding a higher amp model. He does not have a standard product above 500 amps but will build an 800 amp unit (1100 amp IGBT capacity) for $1399 Cdn. He will also supply a 1000 amp unit for $1599. The acceleration and other functions are set in firmware, this unit is not programmable with a laptop/PC. There is temperature monitoring and control is set to 80 degrees C. There is more aluminum than you can see in the pic. The board is set on 1/4" thick and the whole thing is mounted on 1/4" or 5/16" plate....the one visible. There is no motor overspeed protection on the std model, but offers one of two methods as options. This is a $75 or $100 add on. All I can think of at this moment... 

Gary


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Off top of my head:

- does it have a record of blowing up like other controllers we see around here? If so, what is the warranty?

- does it have digital or analog overcurrent sensing? I understand that controllers with digital sensing can't react quickly enough, and that is what kills them, e.x. Curtis is analog and it survives better.

- what frequency does it run at? Does it "whine" at low speed? i.e. does it have low and high frequency modes?

- does it work with standard Curtis 5k pot box? Does it need linear or logarithmic pot?

- does it have initial jerking similar to Logisystems controller, or is it smooth like Curtis?

- how hot does it get? what kind of cooling would it need to handle max current continuously?

- is there a manual or a spec sheet other than what's on the Web site?

- what specific IGBT module is inside, so we can lookup its specs?

- what is the lead time if order was placed today?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Off top of my head:
> 
> - does it have a record of blowing up like other controllers we see around here? If so, what is the warranty? I wish I could tell you more...but we couldn't find anyone who had a blown up controller. Some of Rob's contacts were ppl who bought other items than controllers. One from Europe who apparently bought a lot of controllers indicated that the Electrocraft quality was "very high".
> 
> ...


Some other points from my notes.

The controller itself does not need exact input voltage. However, its internal DC-DC converter (for Key switch circuit) has an input range. 
You can always use a 144V controller for 156V or 120V but not too low or too high. Of you decide ,in future, to go to 168V or higher, we can change the internal DC-DC for you for an small fee.

I don't have exact current vs. time specs. However, a 500A controller has the 500A as its short-time limit ( and becomes hot if it continues at this current then goes to thermal shut-down). 
It will work continuous around 300A.

The model you order is good for plus or minus one 12V battery (144V one works best for 120 to 156V battery).

 If you plan to switch-off the high power to controller, everytime you turn your keyswitch OFF, the pre-charge resistor is a good idea.

I think I have a few other points, I will look. Warranty, I can't seem to find... although I think it is one year. I will find out.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> does it have digital or analog overcurrent sensing? I understand that controllers with digital sensing can't react quickly enough, and that is what kills them, e.x. Curtis is analog and it survives better. I don't know the method. I will ask. He uses a shunt to measure current... that's all I know. Curtis may have success,... but is that directly related to digital vs analogue?


I'm not an expert, but I read a lot of info here about controller design, I understand that MOSFETs failures are attributed among other things to slow reaction from digital microcontroller, i.e. by the time controller processes the current data and responds, its too late since silicon in MOSFETs had already melted. Maybe IGBT is less sensitive to this issue, I don't know, but I really want my next controller to be IGBT based and I can't afford Zilla even if they were selling on every corner.

From what I hear so far, this controller is almost too good to be true. I am only in planning phase of my next EV, so I am not ready to buy yet, I hope by the time I'm ready this will be tested by forum members and still be available at reasonable price.

Thanks for all the details, Gary, much appreciated.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I'm not an expert, but I read a lot of info here about controller design, I understand that MOSFETs failures are attributed among other things to slow reaction from digital microcontroller, i.e. by the time controller processes the current data and responds, its too late since silicon in MOSFETs had already melted. Maybe IGBT is less sensitive to this issue, I don't know, but I really want my next controller to be IGBT based and I can't afford Zilla even if they were selling on every corner.
> 
> From what I hear so far, this controller is almost too good to be true. I am only in planning phase of my next EV, so I am not ready to buy yet, I hope by the time I'm ready this will be tested by forum members and still be available at reasonable price.
> 
> Thanks for all the details, Gary, much appreciated.


I'm with you WRT $. I wish I could offer solid bullet proof experience.. I can't. BUT, I've met Darius... shook his hand, looked in his eyes... discussed his product in length. I saw his shop. This guy is smart. I trust him and I believe that he will support his product. If he knew how to market his stuff... he would be overwhelmed with orders I think. I also believe that he is the perfect kind of guy to work with. What do you really want?? He will develop it for you. I want IGBT technology also. He builds some very nice chargers too. He offers a BMS for lithium as well. It seems very good, but expensive compared to others. He will work with us. 

I've worked with industrial automation for many years. ALL companies have issues.... what sets them apart from their competition is how they handle them.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Here are a couple of other tidbits...... (copied from correspondence, I was asking about diodes for protect also cap charge)

Our controller does already have anti-parallel diodes at the output. This is a must and is used to absorb the inductive energy of the motor away from controller IGBTs.

We have large capacitors across B+ and B- inside the controller. They charge almost instantly ( microseconds) upon connecting the battery and stay charged all the time.

Also, the dims are 3.5 X 7 x 11 inches on the 500 amp unit. It weighs about 8 lbs.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh yes, you may want to change the thread title. Electrocraft offers a 500 amp controller. His website is very dated...lol


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Some answers from Darius at Electrocraft;

- The pot is linear
- You can get an extra manual ( I will ask for digital version lol)
- I cannot release our part number but it is an 600V-85A IGBT (there are 8 in the 500 amp controller)
- We had a case when battery was reverse connected ( in our own lab). One of the free-wheeling diodes exploded
- With linear pot, these is few seconds slow moving. (this is the answer to the question regarding jerky starts... I assume this to mean "no").
- 1 year warranty on our products if used properly ( not connected reversed)
- Delivery for existing 500A model, at this time is at least 6 to 8 weeks now. We have 3 customers already to serve.
-For 800A, model, delivery is 10-12 weeks

Sorry, but I forgot to ask this question (below).... I was on my BB and going from memory..

does it have digital or analog overcurrent sensing? I understand that controllers with digital sensing can't react quickly enough, and that is what kills them, e.x. Curtis is analog and it survives better. I don't know the method. I will ask. He uses a shunt to measure current... that's all I know. Curtis may have success,... but is that directly related to digital vs analogue?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Good info, please find out about current sensing method if possible.

I was surprised to see there are 8 IGBTs, I assumed there was single big one. I don't know much about IGBTs, but I read and saw some pics of single modules capable of several hundred amps. If there are 8 modules then it could suffer from same issues as MOSFETs, where its hard to switch them in sync, resulting in overload and death of individual modules.

I hope an expert like Tesseract can comment on this controller based on the info we have.

Still sounds like a very good alternative to a sad selection of DC controllers we have now.

Thanks


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I guess, the bottom line is.... it all comes down to performance. If the electronics are engineered to work and be robust... this is the key. There were some very reliable, and in some ways better, devices made with tube technology before the transistor came along. We have resistance/projection (spot) welders that have worked flawlessly for 30 years. . . using ingnitron tubes instead of SCR's...and some modern solid state controllers that have been riddled with issues. How do we, as EE laymen, or even those more versed with controls design comment with absolute decisiveness? It comes down to your first comment... how does it work.

I like the idea of having someone in my backyard ... if I have issues. . . not in China. I will likely be the ginea pig for an 800 amp unit. 
Merry x-mas ! 

*<8^>> ho, ho, ho... 

regards,
Gary


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## customcircuits (Dec 21, 2008)

Hey.. I've been following all of the various controller posts for sometime now as I'm in the process of building a controller for my own vehicle. Does anyone have an idea why all COTS controller designs use multiple paralleled MOSFETS? Is there a COTS DC controller that does use a single IGBT?

I chose to use a single 600V 600A continuous (1200A peak) IGBT module in my design for two reasons: reliability and manufacturability. The Vce saturation voltage of the device I chose is only slightly less efficient than paralleling a bunch of MOSFETS. Granted, the price of the module at $100-$200 is higher than buying a bunch of cheap MOSFETS, but by using the IGBT module you save significantly on the man hours to machine/assemble the controllers. Not to mention the time needed to properly match multiple MOSFETS/IGBT devices. Then there are the repair costs to consider. Having to rebuild a controller every week doesn't sound cost effective. 

I would appreciate it if anyone has some insight as to why manufacturers keep going down this failed path.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

customcircuits said:


> ...Does anyone have an idea why all COTS controller designs use multiple paralleled MOSFETS? Is there a COTS DC controller that does use a single IGBT?


My guess is because of the up-front costs involved: just like any other electronic component, the more you buy at a time the better the price. So, even though you listed the most compelling reasons to use a single IGBT module rather than parallel a bunch of smaller IGBTs (or MOSFETs), a lot of businesses in this market - which is depressingly small, folks, no matter what you might think - just can't afford (or are not willing) to pony up the $10k+ to buy modules in a significant enough quantity to get a good price break on them.




customcircuits said:


> I chose to use a single 600V 600A continuous (1200A peak) IGBT module in my design for two reasons: reliability and manufacturability.


Smart man!  




dimitri said:


> I hope an expert like Tesseract can comment on this controller based on the info we have.


Not much to comment on, really. His pricing does seem too low to be sustainable, and 8 IGBTs in parallel is a lot easier to manage than 30+ MOSFETs (if they are the right kind of IGBT) but other than that there aren't any user experiences nor technical details to review.

DIYguy - you gonna buy this thing or just keep pestering the guy until his "hourly rate" drops below that of the average fast-food employee?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> DIYguy - you gonna buy this thing or just keep pestering the guy until his "hourly rate" drops below that of the average fast-food employee?


LOL, I'll tell you... this guy has probably spent a few hours on all my emails... I have sent him many... and not just on the controller. Charger, DC/DC, pot throttle...lots on price and and and... He must be sick of me by now. But he is always so polite.... I have maybe one or two more questions and that's it! For the controller. . . I will likely send my pesos tomorrow. Unfortunately for you guys...my build won't be on the road until the snow melts....

Gary


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> - does it have digital or analog overcurrent sensing? I understand that controllers with digital sensing can't react quickly enough, and that is what kills them, e.x. Curtis is analog and it survives better.


Dimitri,

I have the answer... here is a copy paste from Darius' reply.....

Our overcurrent protection is Analog (sensing an internal shunt's voltage and cutting PWM duty if it is high).

I guess this is what you were hoping for....

Regards,
Gary


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Gary,

good info. As of today this controller would be on top of my list, unless someone else comes up with single IGBT 500+ AMP controller ( customcircuits wink wink ).

Next question to Darius naturally is, why does he use 8 IGBT modules instead of 1 or 2 bigger ones? Just curious if its technical or economical reasoning...

Gary, what motor are you planning to use with this controller?

Thanks


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Finally a 1000-amp controller!!! and for only 1599 CAD which is what, 1200$ USD??

I wish you success with your 800-amp unit...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Gary,
> 
> good info. As of today this controller would be on top of my list, unless someone else comes up with single IGBT 500+ AMP controller ( customcircuits wink wink ).
> 
> ...


I rebuilt this motor... it's out of a Hyster lift truck. 9" dia X 17 long. DC series wound of course. I advanced the timing 10 degrees and slotted the CE plate for an additional 3 degrees. ( allow either 144 or 156 volts.)

I will ask about the IGBT numbers and size. Mine will have a few more though... as I ordered an 800 amp'r.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Finally a 1000-amp controller!!! and for only 1599 CAD which is what, 1200$ USD??
> 
> I wish you success with your 800-amp unit...


Ya, the ole Canadian dollar took a dive after that brief surge.. oh well. Good for some businesses here. 

Thanks man... hope it works out...for all those interested also.

G


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## jcsevparts (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm thinking about ordering one of his units and trying it out on my Warp 9 S-10. I think I will use one of the Curtis pot box 0-5K throttles with it though. He wants $139.00 for his throttle, do you think that is because of small scale assembly costs?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

customcircuits said:


> Hey.. I've been following all of the various controller posts for sometime now as I'm in the process of building a controller for my own vehicle. Does anyone have an idea why all COTS controller designs use multiple paralleled MOSFETS? Is there a COTS DC controller that does use a single IGBT?


Two simple reasons: cost and efficiency.


> I chose to use a single 600V 600A continuous (1200A peak) IGBT module in my design for two reasons: reliability and manufacturability. The Vce saturation voltage of the device I chose is only slightly less efficient than paralleling a bunch of MOSFETS.


The Vce drop is nearly 3V for an IGBT at load. What numbers are you using for the MOSFETS?



> Granted, the price of the module at $100-$200 is higher than buying a bunch of cheap MOSFETS, but by using the IGBT module you save significantly on the man hours to machine/assemble the controllers. Not to mention the time needed to properly match multiple MOSFETS/IGBT devices. Then there are the repair costs to consider. Having to rebuild a controller every week doesn't sound cost effective.
> 
> I would appreciate it if anyone has some insight as to why manufacturers keep going down this failed path.


You've outlined them above. Even a high voltage MOSFET is going to drop significantly less voltage than the IGBT and costs a lot less.

But for a DIY design it's a no brainer: take the efficiency hit and use the IGBT.

Care to tell us a bit more about your design? I think folks have gotten frustrated with trying to put together their own controller since all the DIY controller threads have dried up. I really wish we could come up with a simple reference design with a BOL and a schematic that an experienced hobbyist can put together.

ga2500ev


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I've been on vacation the past week and just now saw this thread.

I'll be purchasing his controller hopefully next month, and I'll keep everyone posted on my experiences with it. Darius have been very responsive to my questions the past few months. Sure I'll be a guinea pig, but with a 1 year warranty at least I know he stands by his product.


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## customcircuits (Dec 21, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> The Vce drop is nearly 3V for an IGBT at load. What numbers are you using for the MOSFETS?
> ga2500ev


Not quite 3V. The module I'm using is only at worst 1V (temperature dependent) at our nominal operating current of 150A and at worst 1.7V at the 600A maximum. I'm aware of higher efficiency modules as well but the price was in the $300's. By the way, if you go with a dual (or chopper) IGBT module you also get an equally rated freewheeling diode designed for optimized switching all in a single package.

Yes, the total heat dissipated by an IGBT module design will be slightly (50-100W) higher than that of a paralleled MOSFET design but the thermal resistance of an IGBT module is far superior to the heat spreader approach employed by the Curtis and copycat designs.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I found the EVcraft site before but lost it and for the life of me could not find it!!! Thanks for digging it up and posting it. I was interested in the BLDC controller.

Thanks again.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

cant wait to see some real world data from the elctrocraft units...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> My guess is because of the up-front costs involved: just like any other electronic component, the more you buy at a time the better the price. So, even though you listed the most compelling reasons to use a single IGBT module rather than parallel a bunch of smaller IGBTs (or MOSFETs), a lot of businesses in this market - which is depressingly small, folks, no matter what you might think - just can't afford (or are not willing) to pony up the $10k+ to buy modules in a significant enough quantity to get a good price break on them.


According to Darius, multiple IGBT design has more area for cooling. He does mention that a single block unit is easier to integrate.

G


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ok so there will be multiple IGBTs but not as many as the competitors?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> ok so there will be multiple IGBTs but not as many as the competitors?


I believe most of the competitors use multiple MOSFET's.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Cant wait to see data from your setup...DIYGUY

156V x 800A = 125kw (167hp) 

With higher pack voltage the controller should be able to maintain high amps at higher rpms, right? Is darius working this into his design?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Cant wait to see data from your setup...DIYGUY
> 
> 156V x 800A = 125kw (167hp)
> 
> With higher pack voltage the controller should be able to maintain high amps at higher rpms, right? Is darius working this into his design?


Hey Bowser,

I'm not sure how to answer.... 156 volts will allow a higher rpm than a lower voltage. The current draw will be dictated by a few things, batteries, conductors, motor... Depending what batteries I end up with, I don't know if I will ever draw 800 amps. The controller will be capable of higher current both peak and continuous. With 1100 amp capacity, limited to 800 it should be able to take 800 amps for 30 seconds or so and continuous should be over 400. If I use additional cooling, it will be able to do more. It limits current based on temperature.

Gary


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I have not yet started my build, I am still deciding on an optimum system, therefore a lot of my information is all calculations and theoretical...sorry for throwing out numbers that dont mean anything...

hey 30 seconds of 167hp is excellent!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I have not yet started my build, I am still deciding on an optimum system, therefore a lot of my information is all calculations and theoretical...sorry for throwing out numbers that dont mean anything...
> 
> hey 30 seconds of 167hp is excellent!


I think you are approaching it the right way... figure out what you think is best, first. Theoretical still means "something". . .no need for apologies. The 30 seconds could easily be extended with additional cooling. Will have to see how the motor stands up.... I'm thinking of cooling it also. Batteries batteries batteries.... this is the quandary. My problem is .. I want it all, without the high cost...lmao


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-LFP160AHA.htm

3.2V, 800A surge amps, 160AH, 300$ each...

50 packs x 3.2V = 160V
50 packs x 300$ = $15,000

If cruising amps are 100 then you can go 60 miles and you have 160Ah...100A is about 62% DOD...which will ensure 2000+ cycles...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-LFP160AHA.htm
> 
> 3.2V, 800A surge amps, 160AH, 300$ each...
> 
> ...


YA......lol. Thanks. But I want to spend 5K, not 15k + BMS.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

This post is far too civilized at the moment ... time for a stupid question.

What would happen if you connected the traction pack direct to the motor ... I mean a 144V pack direct to a Warp 11 Motor.

All reading I have found so far is to be careful not to connect an unloaded motor with a high current in case of over rev. But what about a gearbox connected motor in a suitable gear, getting the power for a short period of time ?

My thought was using a stable controller for daily driving use and somehow bypass the controller altogether with direct current for short "spurts" ?

Feel free to puncture my enthusiasm.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

300zxev said:


> This post is far too civilized at the moment ... time for a stupid question.
> 
> What would happen if you connected the traction pack direct to the motor ... I mean a 144V pack direct to a Warp 11 Motor.
> 
> ...


Its not a crazy thought. Some controllers actually do have a bypass for other applications. I think you will find some comments on this if you search.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

It just seems a bit crazy that a suitable driving controller will overheat and fail if you punish it for a few seconds ...

Instead of trying to engineer the controller to handle huge currents at a large cost (all for 1% of driving time) ... If it can be safely bypassed to supply max current to the motor, current controllers may be suitable.

I'll do a search for such a controller, but would it be possible to create circuit with current controllers ie curtis to perform this safely. I am not technically minded but many of the guys on here are ...

This may provide a solution for all the EV'ers just waiting for a suitable controller to hit the market.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess the solution to that problem would be to build some sort of a bypass for full power. When your foot reaches the floor, a huge contactor relay thats wired in parallel with the controller closes and carries all of the current direct to the motor.

It doesn't sound very safe though. At the very least, it could overdraw the batteries. Also have to wonder what would happen if the contactor jambed in the closed position. You would want a high quality part in there, thats for sure.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

So would you run a perm bypass on the controllers - ... and a cable with contactor accross the controllers + ??? ... or would you need 2 contactors ?

As far as battery protaction goes ... could you use something inline to limit the current in conjunction with the contactor?

Wouldn't the contactor jamming (welding) closed be the same risk as your main contactor ? ... You'd have to always have your main emmergency cutout incase you can't shut the engine off.

There is also the question of how the controller handles the power being restored ... If you have wired in a precharge resistor that should protect the controller from the cut in ???

And also, the problem with arcing dc motors ... is that only due to high voltage ? or is it the high current that creates this problem ?

I'm not trying to sell an idea here ... I'm in the same boat as many others that fear of letting the smoke out of their controller.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I think you would only need a heavy bypass relay on the + side since the - is always on with the key usually. The question is if the higher amps would burn out the lighter relays before the controller.

As for the arching, I think there is a voltage limit, but also an RPM limit above which could cause more and more arching at the brushes.


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## dogstar74 (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm envisioning a conversation like the following.

"what's that red button for?"

"DON'T PUSH THA...."

ZOOOOOOOOMMMMM!


I think the idea of a turbo boost button would be cool! Kinda like Nitrous on a street racer.

Just my .02

Aaron


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dogstar74 said:


> I'm envisioning a conversation like the following.
> 
> "what's that red button for?"
> 
> ...


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/series-wound-dc-controller-idea-24936.html


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> This 500 amp unit retails for $895 Canadian. I have had discussions with Darius regarding a higher amp model. He does not have a standard product above 500 amps but will build an 800 amp unit (1100 amp IGBT capacity) for $1399 Cdn. He will also supply a 1000 amp unit for $1599.


So I guess Darius is reading these forums, because the prices are going up already, I was just quoted US $1449 for 800 Amp unit and 2 months lead time 

Also, his charger costs a little more than Zivan NG3 and 1.6 KW is not that impressive. All else being the same I'd rather get Zivan because of its reputation.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

> So I guess Darius is reading these forums, because the prices are going up already, I was just quoted US $1449 for 800 Amp unit and 2 months lead time


 Is it entirely possible, that, increased orders takes more money, up front, for parts, and, possibly he had to hire some help to try to catch up to orders ???

These are NOT factory produced, as far as I have read ???


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I contacted Darius as well. I don't think he's a bad guy, but his prices are a little out of touch. His price for a BLDC motor controller was more than twice that of another shop. For the price he quoted me, I might as well go to UQM and get something off the shelf (and UQM is not cheap either).

The reality is that these electronic devices be they controllers or chargers have a HUGE profit margin. It only costs a few hundred dollars worth of parts to make these controllers, the rest is "labor cost", or shop time and they can charge what ever they like for that.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

welcome to capitalism....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh god, stop with all this "its too expensive" crap... 

you guys complain about how expensive it is.... and few of you have brought much (other than complaining) to the table. Sure, parts are cheap..... but Boards aren't cheap unless they're a high volume comodity. The assemblies for these controllers are usually fabricated by hand, unless there is high volume (which there isn't for a small startup company). The boards are often assembled by hand, as is the controller. The companies are often a few people, and have high operating costs, insurance, liability, office space rent, etc etc. Curtis and Alltrax aren't small companies, but they're not that big either... but they've been pulling profit long enough to build a larger company out of something that most likely started in a garage. They have operating costs too. That doesn't account for the R&D that goes into the controllers for figuring out how to avoid ringing, reducing the whine, keeping losses lower, increasing efficiency or developing new products that people want.

If its SO MUCH CHEAPER to just buy the parts and put something together, then go do it...


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

I can't see any prices listed on the site ...
Do you have to contact him directly to get a price on the 500A, 800A, 1000A controller ...
And did you say the price is in Canadian dollars ?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

300zxev said:


> I can't see any prices listed on the site ...
> Do you have to contact him directly to get a price on the 500A, 800A, 1000A controller ...
> And did you say the price is in Canadian dollars ?


He replied to my Email quickly, so I would suggest contacting him directly if you have any questions. I got no run around at all when it came to info I requested.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I have to agree with Frodus i'm afraid-given my lack of Electronics expertise in the field, the only way for me to get a decent Controller will be to buy one. And if I could make one, i'd charge a pretty penny for my labors as well...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Oh god, stop with all this "its too expensive" crap...
> 
> you guys complain about how expensive it is.... and few of you have brought much (other than complaining) to the table. Sure, parts are cheap..... but Boards aren't cheap unless they're a high volume comodity. The assemblies for these controllers are usually fabricated by hand, unless there is high volume (which there isn't for a small startup company). The boards are often assembled by hand, as is the controller. The companies are often a few people, and have high operating costs, insurance, liability, office space rent, etc etc. Curtis and Alltrax aren't small companies, but they're not that big either... but they've been pulling profit long enough to build a larger company out of something that most likely started in a garage. They have operating costs too. That doesn't account for the R&D that goes into the controllers for figuring out how to avoid ringing, reducing the whine, keeping losses lower, increasing efficiency or developing new products that people want.
> 
> If its SO MUCH CHEAPER to just buy the parts and put something together, then go do it...


Thank you frodus. I've been biting my tongue. Somethings just never cease to amaze me. We have threads on her about wanting a better mouse trap. Higher voltage, IGBT's, analogue monitored shunt, proper rating of controllers and on and on. We have EE types wanting to design their own (god love em), and they are wonderful. Then u have a guy, who DOESN'T follow this site or others, a small shop, a professional engineer who has designed and built hundreds of controllers, solar controllers, PF corrected charges, lithium battery monitors, pots, etc.. and more. There are so many ppl on here disatisfied with what they have and yet there is one under their nose and it's too expensive. Excuse me? If his standard control (192 volt 500 amp for $895 CDN, how much is that US????)was being sold by another label it would have a 700 amp label on it. This control which will handle 192 volts, will pass 500 amps for 30 seconds and 300 amps continuous without a cooled plate under it. I think I read the Zilla 1K will only do this. I could go on. <END RANT> Please explain to me which part of this is not what everyone is wanting.....

The only thing left is to confirm the performance.... and I have forked out my cash to do this. So if you don't like it... just sit back and watch. <end rant for sure this time> 

Just for the record, he is building the first 800 amp unit for me. The price he gave me was $1399. I asked him to add a pulse driven motor speed protect that was to be an additional $100. He was also changing the key switch circuit and some other things. This may have led to the different pricing. You may want to confirm currency.

Some of Darius' products are not competitively priced. So, don't buy them. But before you buy something else, just do your homework, u might be surprised.

BTW, just for the record.. it will cost Darius several thousand dollars to produce the first 800 amp controller. 

Good evening gentlemen.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I mean, I don't mean to sound like a prick, but come on.... Its not cheap when you factor in labor and a decent enclosure and some R&D.

Answer me this..... if its not rocket science, then why the hell aren't more people building them? Because its a small market and its not a commodity item... so rather than having cheaper controllers and selling lots of them, there are less controllers... so to profit, you have to increase the price. Whether you make 100 or 25, you still have to pay the bills and pay people.

I think anyone that builds a controller deserves a little credit.... I've seen so many come on this website and bash manufacturers because of pricing.... and then they tell everyone that THEY are going to design/build/sell a controller..... I've not seen ONE person do that in the year I've been on this forum... 

I hope there are more people out there that DO build one, so there's more EV exposure... and I wish them all luck.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

All I commented on was the price of his BLDC motor controller, which I still feel is overpriced at nearly $5000 USD (yes, I do have a cheaper source).

Feel free to disagree with me, but I will not post on this thread again. Its not worth arguing over.

Best of luck, guys.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> All I commented on was the price of his BLDC motor controller, which I still feel is overpriced at nearly $5000 USD (yes, I do have a cheaper source).
> 
> Feel free to disagree with me, but I will not post on this thread again. Its not worth arguing over.
> 
> Best of luck, guys.


Nothing personal David... I wasn't bashing anyone in particular...... half of this rant came from reading other stuff on other threads... keep the good times rolling. Some good things can come from heated discussions.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

david85 said:


> All I commented on was the price of his BLDC motor controller, which I still feel is overpriced at nearly $5000 USD (yes, I do have a cheaper source).
> 
> Feel free to disagree with me, but I will not post on this thread again. Its not worth arguing over.
> 
> Best of luck, guys.


How much power is the BLDC controller?

Considering that its really 6 in 1 (2 power stages for each phase, one pushes, one pulls) and that it all has to be timed and varied correctly... if its a high power BLDC controller, i'd expect it to be expensive.... its an AC controller.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What needs to happen is people need to cool off and calm down....

Is making people feel uncomfortable for posting in this forum/thread a positive outcome? 

David85, PM coming your way...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

The only reason I mentioned increased price is to update information for those who maybe planning to buy this product. Initial post specifically stated Canadian dollars, my quote was specifically in US dollars, I felt that difference was high enough to at least mention. 

Another reason to post the price was to eliminate possibility that company makes prices as they go and charge people as they feel like. I hate when that happens. I wish that Darius would post price list on his site to eliminate this possibility.

Initial post leads people to believe that the product is almost too good to be true because its so much cheaper than Curtis after you convert currency properly. I personally don't like things that are too good to be true, because they never are. So my intention was to make people realise that this controller seems competitive to Curtis in price and performance, which is a very good thing, IMHO. All the power to Darius to make and sell as many as possible, we all benefit in the long term.

Even at this updated price his product is still very high on my list.

Peace...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> The only reason I mentioned increased price is to update information for those who maybe planning to buy this product. Initial post specifically stated Canadian dollars, my quote was specifically in US dollars, I felt that difference was high enough to at least mention.
> 
> Another reason to post the price was to eliminate possibility that company makes prices as they go and charge people as they feel like. I hate when that happens. I wish that Darius would post price list on his site to eliminate this possibility.
> 
> ...


You are right, I agree. Price needs to go along with options etc. He needs to document his stuff better. It leads to confusion.

Darius is no marketing guy...that is for sure. Marketing decisions often include price setting based on things completely unrelated to cost... like what the market will bear, where u want to position yourself strategically, short and long term goals etc. It also drives "appearance" changes and things that lead to buyers interpretation of quality...even though it may not add anything tangible.

Cheers


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## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

I have tried to find this "Electrocraft" company on the web, so far no luck. As there have been several posts referring to a website, I assume there is one. Would somebody please provide the website for Darius and his website?

Thank you.

Edit-
Found it by including Darius name in my search criteria.
http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/


Eric


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

first page, first post of this same thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electrocraft-evmtc-60-192v-dc-400a-25243.html


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I spoke with Darius on the phone today and confirmed my order for his 400A controller. He was very nice on the phone and definitely took the time to explain the controller's components, benefits, and limitations. It should be completed in 5-6 weeks at which point I'll give you guys further updates.

I've been going back and forth on wiring schematics with him the past couple months for my EV. The biggest difference his controller -had- compared to others was the onboard DC-DC converter so you wouldn't need an auxiliary 12V source. Apparently he designed his controllers that way for smaller scooters (that didn't have onboard 12V) and increased the power capability on progressive designs. After discussions with him, he has decided to remove the onboard DC-DC converter. Good news because it simplifies my drawing and reduces the number of electrical components I have to use (which I already bought and will be on the Classifieds section here later).

So to sum it up, he has worked with me on the controller's design, and the original price quoted in October was the price I got today (although I did add overspeed protection for additional cost). By the way, he has been quoting prices to me in US dollars, not Canadian. He said he buys his parts in USD and therefore quotes his customers the same currency.

I've been impressed so far with customer service - looking forward to the product.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi

So the built in DC converter isn't what comes with the controller now ...
I have never seen it represented on the website in the wiring diagram ...

Anyhow I requested a price for an 800A and was given the price of US$1449 ... It was a 1000A controller that I was aiming for so now my options are

800A Electrocraft $1449
750A Logisystems $1550
1000A Logisystems $1800

I have heard and hope, Logisystems have ironed out their controller failure issues.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

300zxev said:


> So the built in DC converter isn't what comes with the controller now ...
> I have never seen it represented on the website in the wiring diagram ...


I think it's a -very- recent change from my discussions with him (ie, past couple days). His website definitely has a lot to be desired for though. I bet if you still want the DC-DC converter he'll put it in. 

For anyone that wants info on the controllers, don't read the site, send him an e-mail or give him a call.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Just thought I would mention... I was down to Electrocraft last week. I saw my 800 amp unit, it's not quite done yet,...but it's lookin nice. (then again, what would I know) lol  I took my heat sink/fan unit there. He will mount the controller to it for me.

We had a discussion about voltage capability. Darius told me that the IGBT's are rated at 600 volts. He says that it's needed to protect for spikes and that a high voltage spike can peirce one of these little puppies in a nano-second. He was very comfortable though, with the applicaiton of this controller up to 250 volts and said that it would likely handle 300 volts without any problem. (This is an example of the marketing I spoke of before). Interesting. I think that the controller I ordered would be called a 1000 amp/300 volt unit if made and marketed by some other firms.... just an opinion... but, probably not far off.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Just thought I would mention... I was down to Electrocraft last week. I saw my 800 amp unit, it's not quite done yet,...but it's lookin nice. (then again, what would I know) lol  I took my heat sink/fan unit there. He will mount the controller to it for me.
> 
> We had a discussion about voltage capability. Darius told me that the IGBT's are rated at 600 volts. He says that it's needed to protect for spikes and that a high voltage spike can peirce one of these little puppies in a nano-second. He was very comfortable though, with the applicaiton of this controller up to 250 volts and said that it would likely handle 300 volts without any problem. (This is an example of the marketing I spoke of before). Interesting. I think that the controller I ordered would be called a 1000 amp/300 volt unit if made and marketed by some other firms.... just an opinion... but, probably not far off.


You didn't see my half-built controller there did you?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Clint,

No doubt I did. There were several on the bench. I'm sure one of them was yours..... I'll be going back to pick it up in a few weeks, so if you want me to do anything for you, just ask. 

cheers.
Gary


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Clint,
> 
> No doubt I did. There were several on the bench. I'm sure one of them was yours..... I'll be going back to pick it up in a few weeks, so if you want me to do anything for you, just ask.
> 
> ...


Oh one thing... just let him know you don't need your controller anytime soon, so he should go ahead and finish mine first instead.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Oh one thing... just let him know you don't need your controller anytime soon, so he should go ahead and finish mine first instead.


 unfortunately, that`s true...lol


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I wish my motor/controller contact was within driving distance.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> I wish my motor/controller contact was within driving distance.


Yes, I hear you. It was a factor in my decision..... 

G


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Bowser,
> 
> I'm not sure how to answer.... 156 volts will allow a higher rpm than a lower voltage. The current draw will be dictated by a few things, batteries, conductors, motor... Depending what batteries I end up with, I don't know if I will ever draw 800 amps. The controller will be capable of higher current both peak and continuous. With 1100 amp capacity, limited to 800 it should be able to take 800 amps for 30 seconds or so and continuous should be over 400. If I use additional cooling, it will be able to do more. It limits current based on temperature.
> 
> Gary


wait..so im backtracking I know but...800Amp for 30 seconds?! 

So If he could make a 250V controller with 800A max and you were to use some Optima Yellow Tops with high cranking amps, that would mean you could draw full amps which would equal...200kw=268HP! NICE...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd be more inclined to go with Hawker/Odysseys for high current draw.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

good point...

The cheapest thundersky able to handle 800A surge is the 160AH model which runs for 300$ each for 3.2V....250V worth is about 78 x 300 = 23K$!! YIKES!!!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I'll be using 16 x 12 volt/140 Ah AGM's capable of discharging, I think it was, over 1100 amps. (192V x 800A)/746 = 206 hp. I may have to limit my voltage to 170 or so... (motor restriction) .. but, we'll see... I'm planning to put a blower on the motor and do some more insulating. I can adjust my timing between 10 and 13 degrees also. I may take some steps to final voltage in 12V increments, watching the commutator with a small camera. 

I think the controller should be able to handle as much as I can throw at it.....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks like Darius has updated his website. This may be old news...not sure...

Large Controllers:


For 24 to 250V system with 300A to 1000A current limit (Specify)






 
http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/dc.html#controller


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## HotRodder (Jan 30, 2009)

I called Darius today with full intentions of ordering a Controller. 

Forget the low price. I called today and the price of a 500 amp unit is $945. And thats US dollars not Can. bucks. Plus $35 shipping. Thats getting real close to a the price of a known and respected unit by Curtis. You guys can do what you will but I'm thinking twice about gambling on something new and unproven. My money is hard to come by these days. $ 895 Canadian would have been less than $700 in US dollars and that got me real interested. I don't doubt Electrocraft makes a good product, maybe better that anything out there but there. Time will tell. When I think about it, I really should be buying American anyway. I'm sure others will disagree but it seems right to me. 

Hope it all works out for you brave test pilots. Keep us informed. 

BTW, the 144 volt chargers are $1288 for the delux, fancy-dancy, top of the line model that charges at "about 12 amps" and $988 for the about 5-6 amp, bargan basement model according to Darius. Seeya, Don Stamper


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What was the top voltage on the $945 controller? Remember the Curtis tops out at 144 volts and it seems that Darius' stuff goes considerably higher.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

HotRodder said:


> I called Darius today with full intentions of ordering a Controller.
> 
> Forget the low price. I called today and the price of a 500 amp unit is $945. And thats US dollars not Can. bucks. Plus $35 shipping. Thats getting real close to a the price of a known and respected unit by Curtis. You guys can do what you will but I'm thinking twice about gambling on something new and unproven. My money is hard to come by these days. $ 895 Canadian would have been less than $700 in US dollars and that got me real interested. I don't doubt Electrocraft makes a good product, maybe better that anything out there but there. Time will tell. When I think about it, I really should be buying American anyway. I'm sure others will disagree but it seems right to me.
> 
> ...


I think Darius rates his controllers for up to 250 Volts. Far higher than the Curtis priced 50% more. I definitely understand the concerns about an unproven product on the market though - I hope to get mine in a couple weeks and will keep you posted!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I think Darius rates his controllers for up to 250 Volts. Far higher than the Curtis priced 50% more. I definitely understand the concerns about an unproven product on the market though - I hope to get mine in a couple weeks and will keep you posted!


Sorry to bust in on this guy's thread, but since it's been done to me several times already in my "Do you need 1000A" one, and for the purpose of promoting Electro Craft, I feel some turnabout is fair play here. 

So, three awkward questions that no one seems to have considered much less asked in this thread:

1. How does this guy expect to stay in business if it takes him weeks to months, even, just to build a single controller?

2. How does he know that his design can be extended to 1000A or more by simply stuffing more IGBTs into it? 

3. Does he plan on testing his controllers with a real motor load to prove that they can deliver the current levels over the time periods promised in a real-life situation?

(And please don't bother replying that I am only trying to trash this guy because I'm developing a controller too - whether that's true or not the validity of these questions remains.)


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## HotRodder (Jan 30, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What was the top voltage on the $945 controller? Remember the Curtis tops out at 144 volts and it seems that Darius' stuff goes considerably higher.


I need a controller for 144 volts so I didn't ask about any more voltage. But I'm sure your right. Better call and ask him to be sure though. 416-391-5958. I'll warn you, his accent is very hard to understand and I don't think he speaks much English. Several times I know he didn't understand what I was asking and gave an inappropriate answer. One other concern I didn't like as when I asked about continuous amps on his 500 amp unit he said, after a pause, "maybe,,,,150 to 200". 

I'm thinking, "Maybe",,,,,,,,,,, 150 won't get it! Seeya Don Stamper


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I don't think you are busting in at all.... I think you have a couple of legitimate points. Problem here is, no one can really answer for someone else. ie; "how does he expect to stay in business?". I will throw in a few tidbits of my observations that may help a little.



Tesseract said:


> Sorry to bust in on this guy's thread, but since it's been done to me several times already in my "Do you need 1000A" one, and for the purpose of promoting Electro Craft, I feel some turnabout is fair play here.
> 
> So, three awkward questions that no one seems to have considered much less asked in this thread; It may be a bit assuming to suggest no one has considered any of these points.
> 
> ...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> 3. Does he plan on testing his controllers with a real motor load to prove that they can deliver the current levels over the time periods promised in a real-life situation?


I asked him about this a while ago... I think he said he has 3 motors to test his controllers with, 2 smaller motors and 1 larger one (with a flywheel) that was from an electric car.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I don't think you are busting in at all.... I think you have a couple of legitimate points. Problem here is, no one can really answer for someone else. ie; "how does he expect to stay in business?". I will throw in a few tidbits of my observations that may help a little.


I'm not asking you, or anyone else, to answer for him, rather, but to raise the point that if making the controllers is burdensome, unrewarding or unprofitable then Darius might not be making them for lvery long.

Look no further than Otmar (Cafe Electric) for a very real example of what I am talking about. He said in his blog he simply got tired of spending all of his time making controllers. That he was backlogged for 6 months with the most expensive product out there (but the best, too) wasn't enough compensation for him to keep going.




DIYguy said:


> So, three awkward questions that no one seems to have considered much less asked in this thread; It may be a bit assuming to suggest no one has considered any of these points.


That's why I wrote *no on _seems_ to have considered*... I didn't want to assume any thinking on the part of anyone else here... 


In a similar vein, Q1 was not so much aimed at Darius, but at his customers, such as yourself, to get you to consider whether or not he might be in over his head, either because he is trying to build too many products at once, or his products are too labor-intensive to assemble, or he simply doesn't have the business acumen to run the company at a higher rate of production. 

Also, this thread isn't about my controller design, so contrasting how long Darius spent on his versus how long I've been working on mine isn't really relevant here. In fact, I'm puzzled as to why you would think spending more time on development could be viewed as anything but a plus?! 





DIYguy said:


> 2. How does he know that his design can be extended to 1000A or more by simply stuffing more IGBTs into it? I would suggest that this is your simplification of his efforts. You have no knowledge of what his trials and tribulations have been.


The point of this question was not "does he know what he is doing" rather, it was, "has he actually built and verified his higher current versions"? It doesn't matter if the 800A, 1000A, etc., models are mere extensions of the 400A model, or totally different designs. Q3 is merely a more specific extension of that question: does he even have motors and loads that are able to test his controllers across their full operating range?

Finally, verbal promises don't mean jack, and from what HotRodder has reported (welcome to the forum, btw) Darius either does not know how much power his controllers can deliver for a sustained period (i.e. - at least 15 minutes) or that is the "fine print" he'd rather not put in writing below his claims of "500A" "800A" etc... Neither situation is confidence-inspiring to me, but I am hardly objective...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Here's an idea Tesseract...instead of going on and on about another competitor's controller which will have real-world-user-data very soon...why dont you update your own thread which is 2 weeks without even a short comment about your progress or testing or anything for that matter...I'm sure the ever increasing membership to the forums would like to know "whats new"...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Here's an idea Bowser...instead of going on and on complaining on Tesseract all the time which is working his lower regions off to do a bloody amazing controller and have real-world-user-data already...why don't you give him a rest so he maybe feel that his effort is appreciated and that it's meaningful to update the thread which is 2 weeks without even a short comment about our progress since you're always stabbing him when he actually DOES write something...I'm sure the ever increasing membership to the forums would appreciate a nicer tone here...


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Can we just all get along????? 

There is no need to bash Darius or Tesseract or anyone else. Everyone is doing their best, if you don't like it, don't buy it, there is a beauty of free market.

And don't bash the guy because of his bad English, he maybe 100 times smarter than you even with bad English, there are other languages in the world, learn to respect it 

Peace....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Qer said:


> Here's an idea Bowser...instead of going on and on complaining on Tesseract all the time which is working his lower regions off to do a bloody amazing controller and have real-world-user-data already...why don't you give him a rest so he maybe feel that his effort is appreciated and that it's meaningful to update the thread which is 2 weeks without even a short comment about our progress since you're always stabbing him when he actually DOES write something...I'm sure the ever increasing membership to the forums would appreciate a nicer tone here...


I do not in anyway feel my post was...."going on and on"....."complaining"..... being "unappreciative.....or "always stabbing"... 

I think that's a gross misinterpretation of my comment especially considering If you look within Tesseract's own thread I have participated cordially in a very complimentary dialogue with the both of you. Therefore your claims are just plain unproven and untrue.

Now back to "controllers" shall we...

I dont know about anyone else but I am routing for the new guys...I do worry about what you said Tesseract about what Otmar said and how its not very profitable, etc etc...You make a good point to worry about new manufacturers in this business...I wonder why Curtis with their mass manufacturin capability hasn't tried to tap this market, are we that small and insignificant?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> And don't bash the guy because of his bad English, he maybe 100 times smarter than you even with bad English, there are other languages in the world, learn to respect it
> 
> Peace....


I don't think he was bashing his English, just making a valid point and forewarning us. Communication is important, and if it's difficult for whatever reason that could be a potential problem. Miscommunication could lead to getting the wrong product or inaccurate expectations of the product.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I always appreciate Tesseract's input, he knows his stuff and asks reasonable questions, nothing wrong with that and I'd hate to see him be discouraged to continue to do so. The bottom line is a good product will stand up to scrutiny.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Here's an idea Tesseract...instead of going on and on about another competitor's controller which will have real-world-user-data very soon...why dont you update your own thread which is 2 weeks without even a short comment about your progress or testing or anything for that matter...I'm sure the ever increasing membership to the forums would like to know "whats new"...


Hmmm... looks like the fur has been a flyin' while I was over at the shop doing Top Secret Work on the controller.... 

Rather than me get all bent out of shape over your snarky little post here, let's cut right to the chase: do my questions have merit or not? It's really just as simple as that. 




Bowser330 said:


> I wonder why Curtis with their mass manufacturin capability hasn't tried to tap this market, are we that small and insignificant?


Yes, the DIY market is that small and insignificant. How many people have both the skills necessary to convert their vehicle to electric _and the desire to do so?_ Not so much, to quote Borat.

So why am I bothering? Because it's a cool project and I'm gambling that eventually more and more businesses will pop up performing conversions that make economic sense, not just green sense, and the market will then expand a hundred fold or more.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Your third comment was absolutely meritful...and an excellent question at that...good to know he does do some real-world motor testing..I would take that one further and hope he has taken the voltage all the way up to 250V (maybe with an interpoled Kostov) to observe the characteristics at that threshold.

hahaha.... snark...isn't that little guy from Thundercats?

It would be nice to see more of those coversion companies opening up...


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

The motor under test HAS to be under load!
That means: in a drivable vehicle or in a dynamic motor load tester.
Giving the "benefit of the doubt" and giving $1400bucks and waiting 6weeks
is not, IMHO, a valid way of Customer Beta Testing a new product. 
Getting a RMA (Return Material Authorization) back to Canada is at the descretion of the seller. I'm keeping an eye on this thread. I wish U good luck!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I think that's a gross misinterpretation of my comment...


Of course it was! It was extremely unfair and unbalanced post and my whole purpose with it was to do a pastiche to show you how unfair your own post sounded to me.



Bowser330 said:


> Now back to "controllers" shall we...


Yes please. And as you said, you DO have had a very friendly dialogue with both of us before. Therefore it was even more surprising to me that you wrote the way you did.


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## HotRodder (Jan 30, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Can we just all get along?????
> 
> There is no need to bash Darius or Tesseract or anyone else.
> 
> ...


Why can't we get along??. Read your own post Bubba. Maybe you could be the first to let up a little. You don't even know me but ya feel like kickin' me around too?? I called him and his English stinks, Its a fact. Do you know how smart I am for sure? Respect??

Communication is important. I just gave the facts! 

Is there a active Moderator here? Don Stamper


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This isn't even close to needing moderation  Everyone can just back off the personal attacks a bit, no need to call the hall monitors until the blood starts flowing


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...no need to call the hall monitors until the blood starts flowing


You mean as in the global warming-thread...?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I try to stay away from those threads, I know how certain people get and to argue is pointless for everyone.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Argh, I need to get my controller in so we can get this thread back to a constructive discussion!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Argh, I need to get my controller in so we can get this thread back to a constructive discussion!


Hey Clint, I got a message from Darius yesterday. My controller can be picked up any time after Monday. He just has to do final clean up/packaging etc. He finished testing the motor over-speed protection yesterday. Unfortunately, I won't be in a position to test it any time real soon though.. . but I could post some pics and stuff if anyone is interested. 

Darius quoted 12 weeks due to the development of the higher output controller and options I wanted. He finished it in 6 weeks and mounted my heat sink as well, at no extra charge... which I thought was pretty good of him. 

BTW, I don't have a hard time to understand him at all. He has an accent, but nothing outrageous. (then again, my wife is french and my kids are bilingual (they always speak french at home)... and I don't understand them most of the time either...lmao  )


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Clint, I got a message from Darius yesterday. My controller can be picked up any time after Monday. He just has to do final clean up/packaging etc. He finished testing the motor over-speed protection yesterday. Unfortunately, I won't be in a position to test it any time real soon though.. . but I could post some pics and stuff if anyone is interested.
> 
> Darius quoted 12 weeks due to the development of the higher output controller and options I wanted. He finished it in 6 weeks and mounted my heat sink as well, at no extra charge... which I thought was pretty good of him.
> 
> BTW, I don't have a hard time to understand him at all. He has an accent, but nothing outrageous. (then again, my wife is french and my kids are bilingual (they always speak french at home)... and I don't understand them most of the time either...lmao  )


Same here! I just saw an e-mail from Darius this morning that my controller is done and is being mailed out.  It sounded like the delay with mine (maybe yours too?) was him working out the motor overspeed protection.

After taking the engineering classes in college, I can handle some pretty thick accents!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Alright Clint, it seems as if you're on the front lines to test this baby out, we'll all be watching and waiting, no slacking


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

...no pressure...but....we're anxiously waiting for a report....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Got mine. It looks kinda slow sitting on my table saw/shaper though...

He mounted the IGBT's directly on the backside of that 1/2" Al plate.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Those cooling fans look like they mean business! I can't really tell, but are those 6" diameter?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ya, I think you could call them 6"ers. They measure about 7" OD and the fan is about 5 5/8" I guess. The housing has a flare for efficiency. . . they set me back $1.91 each....from Princess Auto....lol Apparently, for every 10 degrees C, electrical components' life is doubled. I doubt if that is a linear curve but.... it can't hurt to keep em from getting too hot. The temp protection (shut down) in the controller is set to 80C. 

I'm thinking of mounting a probe to sense actual temperature of the controller and display it inside. Can anyone recommend a good one? I was thinking of also mounting one in/on my motor for the same thing. Perhaps a gauge capable of more than one input?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the pics!

keep the updates coming!!!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> ya, I think you could call them 6"ers. They measure about 7" OD and the fan is about 5 5/8" I guess. The housing has a flare for efficiency. . . they set me back $1.91 each....from Princess Auto....lol Apparently, for every 10 degrees C, electrical components' life is doubled. I doubt if that is a linear curve but.... it can't hurt to keep em from getting too hot. The temp protection (shut down) in the controller is set to 80C.


What?! Are you saying you got 6" fans for $1.91?! What's the part number at Princess Auto? I gotta see that to believe it!

Anyway, yes, semiconductor life does double for every 10C drop in temp, more or less (the Arrhenius equation), but even at a die temp of 100C most power semiconductors will survive just fine for 10,000 hours (a little over a year of continuous operation, in other words). It is unlikely you will drive any one vehicle for a cumulative time of 10k hours (after all, that would be 400,000 miles at an average speed of 40mph).

That said, semiconductor life shortens dramatically once you exceed 150C, so a little extra cooling can't hurt (especially if it costs less than $4...)




DIYguy said:


> I'm thinking of mounting a probe to sense actual temperature of the controller and display it inside. Can anyone recommend a good one? I was thinking of also mounting one in/on my motor for the same thing. Perhaps a gauge capable of more than one input?


Don't know if you have Harbor Freight in Canada, but something like this would be cheap-and-cheerful, if a bit cheesy:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33080


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Princess auto has a surplus section in the back of their flier but actual items vary from store to store. All sorts of goodies get tossed there from time to time. Small motors, capacitors, fans, speakers. I wish there was a location closer to me. We still buy all sorts of stuff from them via mail order though.

Got a manual tire changer for some $40 last time (regular price though). Looks crude enough to be soviet era, but it works!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> What?! Are you saying you got 6" fans for $1.91?! What's the part number at Princess Auto? I gotta see that to believe it!
> 
> Anyway, yes, semiconductor life does double for every 10C drop in temp, more or less (the Arrhenius equation), but even at a die temp of 100C most power semiconductors will survive just fine for 10,000 hours (a little over a year of continuous operation, in other words). It is unlikely you will drive any one vehicle for a cumulative time of 10k hours (after all, that would be 400,000 miles at an average speed of 40mph).
> 
> ...


Thanks Tesseract,

Check this out..... 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1845&d=1231554242

When I stopped to buy the collar for the speed sensor.. I came across these fans at Princess Auto. They are 6" dia and made in Germany. There was one with a price of $1.91 on it   and a bunch more at $19 something. I took two up to the till and sure enough she tried to charge me two different prices. They had 2 different SKU's on them, one was discontinued... lmao. They have the same spec sticker on them. I asked her nicely to call the manager..lol Got the two for $1.91 each..lmao...I don't know if I will use them... but I couldn't resist...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Priceless....(literally!!!)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Thanks Tesseract,
> 
> Check this out.....
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1845&d=1231554242


Wow... EBM-Papst makes some of the best quality fans in the world and while I can't tell for sure, those look like a model 6412 (172mm diameter). They go for $94 from Mouser, so I'd say you got a pretty good deal...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

My controller arrived today! 

But I wasn't home so they took it away.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The controller is home!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's not hooked up yet?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ClintK said:


> The controller is home!


No cooling fans??


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> No cooling fans??


I'll have fans; I need to determine how best to mount them with the controller in the car.

It would be easiest to mount them to the thin metal top of the controller, but the aluminum heat sink is at the bottom of the controller. I don't know what if any effectiveness I'll get from cooling the top.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Wow... EBM-Papst makes some of the best quality fans in the world and while I can't tell for sure, those look like a model 6412 (172mm diameter). They go for $94 from Mouser, so I'd say you got a pretty good deal...


Look at these,

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009031110043304&catname=&qty=1&item=161256

These aren't the same PAPST part number (these are 6424, 24 volt) but the specs look good and the price is right. They say they will run on 12 volts (maybe reduced cfm) and they have over 2000 of them in stock. 

I don't know whats quality in electrical parts yet, But based on what I read this is the good stuff. My next order to them is going to include at least one.

Hope you guys get some value as well


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I'll have fans; I need to determine how best to mount them with the controller in the car.
> 
> It would be easiest to mount them to the thin metal top of the controller, but the aluminum heat sink is at the bottom of the controller. I don't know what if any effectiveness I'll get from cooling the top.


Hey Clint,

May I suggest flipping the controller upside-down, mounting a large heat sink with fins and then mounting a fan or two on top of that.

G


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

If the controller doesn't come with a fan(s), shouldn't it be able to meet all published specs without any fans?? 
BTW, What ARE the published specs?? 
My advice: plug it in and test ASAP. 
T


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> If the controller doesn't come with a fan(s), shouldn't it be able to meet all published specs without any fans??
> BTW, What ARE the published specs??
> My advice: plug it in and test ASAP.
> T


During summer ambient temperatures are 110+ degrees with the car off - I imagine additional cooling is always good.

My controller model is the same as the thread title, 60-192V DC 400A. How long it can pull 400A I honestly don't know. (I assume similar to other controllers that it is temperature dependent.) I hope to rarely go over 200A though.


----------



## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

I routinely pull over 500A with my Curtis 1231C and my 4000+lb (ford) EVTempo
when I start out quickly with a full charge. It usually pegs my analog 500A ammeter briefly. I can cruise at approx 125A at 40mph. I've *never* needed any fans with my 1231C. Going on 8yrs now, with 6K miles/yr. If any controller generates that much heat, it's not very efficient.

BTW, I always design my controller mounting so that I can change it out quickly, either for upgrading or for swapping with a known good 1231C for troubleshooting.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> I routinely pull over 500A with my Curtis 1231C and my 4000+lb (ford) EVTempo
> when I start out quickly with a full charge. It usually pegs my analog 500A ammeter briefly. I can cruise at approx 125A at 40mph. I've *never* needed any fans with my 1231C. Going on 8yrs now, with 6K miles/yr. If any controller generates that much heat, it's not very efficient.
> 
> BTW, I always design my controller mounting so that I can change it out quickly, either for upgrading or for swapping with a known good 1231C for troubleshooting.


I thought it was standard practice to add additional cooling. I am mounting my components for easy access as well. My completed Spit should be 2100-2500 lbs (depending on battery selection).


----------



## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Clint,
I originally added fan mounts to the finned side of my 1231C. I EVen had, "in the beginning" (8yrs ago), fans attached but never powered up. Since I really never used the fans at all, I took them out during one of my battery upgrades.
The mounts are still there, but no fans. nEVer, EVer used fans on my 1231C, EVen the hot sacramento summer afternoons.  
T


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I think several members are excited to hear about how the elecrocraft controllers perform, long term..

192V and 400A is about 103hp (max)..with a car that weighs as much as a civic and has the horsepower of one, your spit should run fine...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> I routinely pull over 500A with my Curtis 1231C and my 4000+lb (ford) EVTempo...


Is that battery amps or motor amps? There can be a huge difference between the two depending on the duty cycle of the internal switches (MOSFETs, IGBTs, whatever - Curtis uses MOSFETs). If your meter is saying 500A then it either must be reading motor amps, or else it or its shunt are wildly out of calibration.




EVMAN said:


> ... If any controller generates that much heat, it's not very efficient.


That's a bit harsh of a judgment to pass. A controller that loses 1kW of heat on average is still likely to be at least 90% efficient (as the average power required to drive a vehicle is more or less in the 10-15kW range). 

That your Curtis barely gets warm is a testament to the merits of running lots of MOSFETs in parallel, but there are no free lunches in this universe so if you want more voltage capability then the losses in MOSFETs rise dramatically, at which point IGBTs make more sense.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> Clint,
> I originally added fan mounts to the finned side of my 1231C. I EVen had, "in the beginning" (8yrs ago), fans attached but never powered up. Since I really never used the fans at all, I took them out during one of my battery upgrades.
> The mounts are still there, but no fans. nEVer, EVer used fans on my 1231C, EVen the hot sacramento summer afternoons.
> T


Glad to hear it shouldn't be critical to add the extra cooling. 



Bowser330 said:


> I think several members are excited to hear about how the elecrocraft controllers perform, long term..
> 
> 192V and 400A is about 103hp (max)..with a car that weighs as much as a civic and has the horsepower of one, your spit should run fine...


Yeup. I'm really on the fence of whether or not to go with the cheap Walmart batteries for 18 months or get a small LiFePO4 pack and incrementally add to it. Add $0.35 a WHr, it's getting really hard to justify building Lead Acid battery racks. If I go with Lithiums it will delay my purchasing of batteries by at least a couple months.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just remember to add shipping and a BMS to that .35 cents which really changes the cost. Not saying it's not worth it, (I'm going with lithium), but to say .35 cents isn't really the whole picture.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Just remember to add shipping and a BMS to that .35 cents which really changes the cost. Not saying it's not worth it, (I'm going with lithium), but to say .35 cents isn't really the whole picture.


The Goodum BMS would only cost you about $6 per battery ( for LV protection, balancing and high voltage cutoff to chargers.

Not that much. Additional 1 cent per wh for a 160AH battery


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> The Goodum BMS would only cost you about $6 per battery ( for LV protection, balancing and high voltage cutoff to chargers.


Hey Techno... Where can I find this "Goodum BMS"? Can it be configured for AGM's??

Thx.

Gary


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Techno... Where can I find this "Goodum BMS"? Can it be configured for AGM's??
> 
> Thx.
> 
> Gary


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416

It can work with any lifepo cell IIRC.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Techno,

Tks. Sent you PM.

G


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Technologic said:


> The Goodum BMS would only cost you about $6 per battery ( for LV protection, balancing and high voltage cutoff to chargers.
> 
> Not that much. Additional 1 cent per wh for a 160AH battery


Is there a price in that 73 page thread, or do you have to build them yourself? Then you still have to add shipping, which looks like it might be $20 per cell or more.
.35 cents a wh will not get lithiums in your vehicle, unless you live in China.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is there a price in that 73 page thread, or do you have to build them yourself? Then you still have to add shipping, which looks like it might be $20 per cell or more.
> .35 cents a wh will not get lithiums in your vehicle, unless you live in China.


There's PCBs ... 
$49 for the PCB for 24 channels

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5192-4-24cell-battery-management-system-bms

You're right about that, just wanted to be clear it's only about 1 cent/wh


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If I add shipping of $20 per cell to 100ah cells I come up with .42 cents per wh, not including a BMS. Shipping could easily be more, especially for larger cells.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> If I add shipping of $20 per cell to 100ah cells I come up with .42 cents per wh, not including a BMS. Shipping could easily be more, especially for larger cells.


it could also be much less... at about $6/cell like David85 paid


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Well I've got everything wired in my car, just no batteries. The controller has an 80V cutoff so my attempt at stringing together a few Lead Acids together didn't work.

So no test with the controller until I get my batteries. Tech, when are we doing that group purchase?


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I thought it was standard practice to add additional cooling. I am mounting my components for easy access as well. My completed Spit should be 2100-2500 lbs (depending on battery selection).


Being that the ElectroCraft does not have even small cooling fins on it like the Curtic, I would definitely want to add something to it and it should be on the thick heat spreader. one thing to take into consideration here is that it is IGBT based so it will generate at least a little more heat than a well designed MOSFET controller.

I am looking forward to seeing results of testing, I am seriously considering this if the results look good. I like the idea of it being IGBT, but I am still hesitating due to unknown status and also I think that his price is really not all that competitive when you take in to consideration that these are really bare bones controlers. Their main feature is their power handling, and that is yet to be proven by any of us. 

I agree with others that his web site leaves much to be desired; time / current stats, a list of standard protection and safety features, ECT. If he had those publicly listed on his site I would be much less hesitant about his product. 

And yes I do hope he reads this thread!

That reminds me I still have a few things I need to post on another thread for Steven at Kelly. We as DIY builders maybe be a small bunch of consumers, but if we are what the market consists of then a few of us in this forum should have a strong enough voice to inform these manufacturers what the market needs them to build. right now I am leaning towards the next generation of Logisystems controlers; I was told that this next generation will also be IGBT. 

So much is changing with the available controllers right now that I am going to get my batteries first and make a final decision on a controller after I save up for the next round of purchases.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Well I've got everything wired in my car, just no batteries. The controller has an 80V cutoff so my attempt at stringing together a few Lead Acids together didn't work.
> 
> So no test with the controller until I get my batteries. Tech, when are we doing that group purchase?


I ordered my batteries with Powered by DC's group purchase. He's estimating 2 to 3 months for delivery; once they arrive I'll be able to give more data on the controller.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Any updates?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I'm with you WRT $. I wish I could offer solid bullet proof experience.. I can't. BUT, I've met Darius... shook his hand, looked in his eyes... discussed his product in length. I saw his shop. This guy is smart. I trust him and I believe that he will support his product. If he knew how to market his stuff... he would be overwhelmed with orders I think. I also believe that he is the perfect kind of guy to work with. What do you really want?? He will develop it for you. I want IGBT technology also. He builds some very nice chargers too. He offers a BMS for lithium as well. It seems very good, but expensive compared to others. He will work with us.
> 
> I've worked with industrial automation for many years. ALL companies have issues.... what sets them apart from their competition is how they handle them.


DIYguy,
Thank you for the information you have posted on this. Being some 50 miles from the Canadian border here in Minnesota I have been wanting to get up your way and look at some of the companies that are springing up and that have been working with 'electro-motive' drives in the AC/DC spectrum.
And I put this company on 'the list'. When you say you looked him in the eyes, then I understand what you mean... sounds like one very good possibility for a future build. Again, thank you.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Any updates?


I'm still waiting for my batteries.  The car is pretty much done though / ready to be driven.

DIYguy, have you been able to hook yours up yet?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> DIYguy,
> Thank you for the information you have posted on this. Being some 50 miles from the Canadian border here in Minnesota I have been wanting to get up your way and look at some of the companies that are springing up and that have been working with 'electro-motive' drives in the AC/DC spectrum.
> And I put this company on 'the list'. When you say you looked him in the eyes, then I understand what you mean... sounds like one very good possibility for a future build. Again, thank you.


You're most welcome. 

Cheers.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> DIYguy, have you been able to hook yours up yet?


Hey ClintK,

I've been stalled for a little while working out of the country. I've been getting bits and pieces done on the little time I am home.... but not quite there yet. Looks like I'll be home for a while now and should get some more time to finish this thing up. The motor is in and mounted, I am just finishing up the battery boxes and mounting. I have pretty much everything I need except the vacuum pump, and charger. I do plan to add AC and regen later though. 

Cheers.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

updates????


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> updates????


Hey Bowser. I wish I could give you an update.... unfortunately I've been bogged down with life and have not had much time to work on the project. Things should be opening up though and I am looking fwd to getting this thing going. 

One point of interest... I emailed Darius regarding my motor tach generator because he had programmed the controller to limit motor rpm based on a tach generation of 1 pulse per motor rev. Since I will be using my motor tach to drive the OEM tach as well as feeding the controller for motor over-speed protection, I needed a firmware change to mach my tach. Darius burned a new EPROM for me and mailed it to me. As I had mentioned earlier in this thread...and demonstrated to me recently, he is good to his word. He didn't charge me either.

Cheers.
Gary


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Bowser. I wish I could give you an update.... unfortunately I've been bogged down with life and have not had much time to work on the project. Things should be opening up though and I am looking fwd to getting this thing going.
> 
> One point of interest... I emailed Darius regarding my motor tach generator because he had programmed the controller to limit motor rpm based on a tach generation of 1 pulse per motor rev. Since I will be using my motor tach to drive the OEM tach as well as feeding the controller for motor over-speed protection, I needed a firmware change to mach my tach. Darius burned a new EPROM for me and mailed it to me. As I had mentioned earlier in this thread...and demonstrated to me recently, he is good to his word. He didn't charge me either.
> 
> ...


Well I hope everything turns around for you favorably.

Thats great to know about Darius! Thank you for offering your feedback...

It would be great to have a place to post up testimonials...that way.. a new potential customer can see who really is happy and who really isnt with the products they've purchased...I guess we can do that in the vendor section...


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Well I hope everything turns around for you favorably.
> 
> Thats great to know about Darius! Thank you for offering your feedback...
> 
> It would be great to have a place to post up testimonials...that way.. a new potential customer can see who really is happy and who really isnt with the products they've purchased...I guess we can do that in the vendor section...


May be able to use the Wiki for a testimonial section. We just need to convince EVComponents to send me my battery pack before everyone else so I can install / test them with the ElectroCraft controller.


----------



## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Hey Bowser. I wish I could give you an update.... unfortunately I've been bogged down with life and have not had much time to work on the project. Things should be opening up though and I am looking fwd to getting this thing going.
> 
> One point of interest... I emailed Darius regarding my motor tach generator because he had programmed the controller to limit motor rpm based on a tach generation of 1 pulse per motor rev. Since I will be using my motor tach to drive the OEM tach as well as feeding the controller for motor over-speed protection, I needed a firmware change to mach my tach. Darius burned a new EPROM for me and mailed it to me. As I had mentioned earlier in this thread...and demonstrated to me recently, he is good to his word. He didn't charge me either.
> 
> ...


That definitely seems like a good sign to me  I am currently attempting a diy controller of my own, but if that does not pan out then the Eletrocraft controller is very high on my potential canidate list. I still want to see how these two being dicused in the fourum work out before I can finalize that list though.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ClintK said:


> May be able to use the Wiki for a testimonial section. We just need to convince EVComponents to send me my battery pack before everyone else so I can install / test them with the ElectroCraft controller.


I did notice that evcomponents has pretty good prices on batteries...good choice..

one reason why I like electrocraft is the 250V 1000A option...to compete with the AC systems we need some high voltage DC systems tro represent!

did you get a BMS with your batteries?


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

What motor would you pair with a 250V controller ?

I thought the Warp motors have the highest spec rating and that tops out at 192V.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dreamer said:


> What motor would you pair with a 250V controller ?
> 
> I thought the Warp motors have the highest spec rating and that tops out at 192V.


Any motor you would with a lower voltage controller..... let me qualify that.... You can run a lower voltage system if you like, as the controller will handle up to 250 volts. So, you can use 120 or 144 volt system if you like. 
I'm using a Hyster (GE) lift truck motor with advanced timing and will be running a 192 volt battery pack. There is a correlation between motor rpm and voltage.. it's not directly proportional, but it is somewhat proportional. If you limit motor rpm with your controller.... you will effectively cap the upper end of the potential voltage the motor could see. (this should inspire some interesting conversation ...lol ) .... at least that's my warped theory... 
I plan on putting an analog volt meter and ammeter (at least for a while) to read battery current and voltage and also a pair to read motor current and voltage. I think my motor will never see an average voltage that equals my pack voltage....depending on my motor rpm, which will be limited to 5000.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

My answer will not be as technical as DUYGUY's...

all I was going to say is...

Kostov Motors, because they have interpoles...

Those interpoles help to reduce the chance of electrical arcing which usualy happens at high voltages. This arcing can damage the motor.

John Wayland, White Zombie, used to run his 11" Kostov (that had some refinements made internally) at around 300V...

However from looking at the torque line it looks like the Warp motors make more torque per amp, I think thats because the internals are smaller in the Kostov 11" compared to the Warp 11"...


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I did notice that evcomponents has pretty good prices on batteries...good choice..
> 
> one reason why I like electrocraft is the 250V 1000A option...to compete with the AC systems we need some high voltage DC systems tro represent!
> 
> did you get a BMS with your batteries?


No BMS actually. My controller has an 80V cutoff which corresponds well to the pack's minimum voltage, and my charger will peak out at 108V (average 3.6V per cell). I'll use the VoltBlochers to ensure they are balanced.

I (personally) think that "you must have a BMS with Lithium" started with laptop style Lithium batteries, not LiFePO4s. But I haven't learned my very expensive lesson yet.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ClintK said:


> No BMS actually. My controller has an 80V cutoff which corresponds well to the pack's minimum voltage, and my charger will peak out at 108V (average 3.6V per cell). I'll use the VoltBlochers to ensure they are balanced.
> 
> I (personally) think that "you must have a BMS with Lithium" started with laptop style Lithium batteries, not LiFePO4s. But I haven't learned my very expensive lesson yet.


haha, well lets hope nothing happens and you can produce some good data for us observers/learners...


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Isn't 144V already enough to maintain 5000RPM ?

If a higher voltage would allow a higher torque at the same RPM, that would be significant. Is that the case ? If running at 192V will you have more torque at 5000RPM than in a 144V system ?

I can see other advantages like lower AMPs and therefor smaller cable gauge, less heat, etc. But higher voltage also means more arcing in a series motor, and more chance of burning the brushes. Plus needing more batteries in the string to get that higher voltage and more BMS/balancing issues.

These are my impressions based on reading here and elsewhere, so I'm trying to get a handle on the real concerns. I've been kind of leaning the other direction -- two 9" motors each with its own 144V Curtis 500A controller -- thinking I'd have more total power while staying at relatively low volts and amps to each setup. Plus some redundancy in case one motor or controller failed I could still limp home on the second.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dreamer said:


> Isn't 144V already enough to maintain 5000RPM ?
> 
> If a higher voltage would allow a higher torque at the same RPM, that would be significant. Is that the case ? If running at 192V will you have more torque at 5000RPM than in a 144V system ?
> 
> ...


It is my understanding that when you increase the voltage to the motor, the RPM and Power curves move proportionally...So if the rpm curve is moving up, with the voltage, then yes, there would be more torque available because you could apply more amps...

Advanced timing, as DIYGuy mentioned can reduce the chances of arcing and allow DC brushed motors to use up to 192V...Kostov motors have interpoles within them which reduce the chance fo arcing all the way up to aroudn 300V...

BMS Balancing of batteries in series...most balancing issues you would have with 3.2V batteries in a series of 45 (144V) you would likely have with 60 (192V) and 78 would get you to (250V)...I really dont know to what point you start to have issues, but to play it safe I may invest in balancers, even if I was at 144V...

What is the torque available on a warp 9 with 500A?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

The other big thing for me to run 192 volts is RANGE! I think that higher voltage is always better but only up to the point of causing other issues like the brush arcing you mentioned. I want to use AGM's for my first pack and 144 volts means 12 batteries or in my case 19.4KWh. When I go to 16 x 12 volt AGM's I am now at almost 26KWh + I will be drawing lower amps as you mentioned so the peukerts effect will be less... allowing me to get more out of them.

I did take a few precautions to limit the chances of brush arcing including advancing the timing by 13 degrees and a dielectric coating on all of the brush holder components.

Of course the Kostov motors solve the arcing problem... 

As far as BMS... you really should be using one for VRLA AGM's. This is a significant point because if you boil the electrolyte... you shorten the life dramatically. You need to dump current beyond a particular charge voltage (slightly different between battery brands/types). The "VR" in VRLA stands for valve regulated... they may be sealed but, if they gas... they will vent and when it's gone, there's no gettin-it-back....  AGM's tend to get out of balance easier to.... apparently (I really have no idea... ! lol  )

If you're running regular floodies... no worries.
cheers.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

ClintK said:


> No BMS actually. My controller has an 80V cutoff which corresponds well to the pack's minimum voltage, and my charger will peak out at 108V (average 3.6V per cell). I'll use the VoltBlochers to ensure they are balanced.
> 
> I (personally) think that "you must have a BMS with Lithium" started with laptop style Lithium batteries, not LiFePO4s. But I haven't learned my very expensive lesson yet.


Your controller LVC and charger's HVC, combined with VoltBlochers balancers, gives you BMS, so don't say you have no BMS 

The only thing missing is cell level LVC, which will be available on next version of VoltBlochers anyway.

Having no BMS, IMHO, would mean a dumb charger, controller without a cutoff ,no balancing and no instrumentation, which would undoubtly lead to destroying some cells sooner or later.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Your controller LVC and charger's HVC, combined with VoltBlochers balancers, gives you BMS, so don't say you have no BMS
> 
> The only thing missing is cell level LVC, which will be available on next version of VoltBlochers anyway.
> 
> Having no BMS, IMHO, would mean a dumb charger, controller without a cutoff ,no balancing and no instrumentation, which would undoubtly lead to destroying some cells sooner or later.


Good point!


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> It is my understanding that when you increase the voltage to the motor, the RPM and Power curves move proportionally...So if the rpm curve is moving up, with the voltage, then yes, there would be more torque available because you could apply more amps...
> 
> Advanced timing, as DIYGuy mentioned can reduce the chances of arcing and allow DC brushed motors to use up to 192V...Kostov motors have interpoles within them which reduce the chance fo arcing all the way up to aroudn 300V...
> 
> ...


Yes, I know there are issues requiring BMS even at 144V. My point was just that the expense and complexity goes up proportionate to the number of cells. A decent BMS isn't cheap.

The graphs I've seen for a Warp 9 suggest 110ft-lbs at 500 amps and a Warp 11 160 ft-lbs. The chart below is strictly amps for each motor, no volts or rpm given. And I am admittedly extending the lines in a linear fashion. Still, it seemed to support my thinking that two 9's with smaller controllers would be more powerful than an 11 and a bigger controller -- at roughly the same cost.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dreamer said:


> Yes, I know there are issues requiring BMS even at 144V. My point was just that the expense and complexity goes up proportionate to the number of cells. A decent BMS isn't cheap.
> 
> The graphs I've seen for a Warp 9 suggest 110ft-lbs at 500 amps and a Warp 11 160 ft-lbs. The chart below is strictly amps for each motor, no volts or rpm given. And I am admittedly extending the lines in a linear fashion. Still, it seemed to support my thinking that two 9's with smaller controllers would be more powerful than an 11 and a bigger controller -- at roughly the same cost.


Im not sure...please list the prices of the equipment you plan to use...
two warp 9s are atleast over 3000$ and two curtis controllers are 3000$ as well, so your total price is 6000$ for 220 ftlbs MAX....which controller were you planning on using with the single warp 11? hopefully something that can handle more than 500A...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Im not sure...please list the prices of the equipment you plan to use...
> two warp 9s are atleast over 3000$ and two curtis controllers are 3000$ as well, so your total price is 6000$ for 220 ftlbs MAX....which controller were you planning on using with the single warp 11? hopefully something that can handle more than 500A...


Well that's the question isn't it ? There doesn't seem to be a controller other than the Zilla that can get the most out of a Warp 11.  A Zilla with Hairball ran over $2700 before Otmar gave up. I doubt the new company -- if it ever actually produces anything -- is going to sell them for less.

On the other hand, there are plenty of reasonably solid 500A controllers in the $1000 - $1500 range.

2 x Warp 9 @$1500/ea plus 2 x Curtis 1231C @ $1500/ea = $6000

1 x Warp 11 @ $2500/ea plus 1 x Zilla Z1KLV & Hairball @ $2700 = $5200

So the cost is comparable, but I'd have to use heavier cable, contactors, fuses, emerg shutoff, etc. to run the 11 @ 1000A peak and I'd get no redundancy. If the motor or controller dies in the Warp 11 situation, then the vehicle is down for however long it takes to get replacement parts. Which can be a long time in the DIY EV world. If anything in either string of Warp 9 configurations dies, that whole section can be disconnected at the battery pack and I still have a driveable EV.

Actually, I've even been looking at the Belktronix controller rather than the Curtis. You seem to get a semi-complete system, including contactor, pot, and vehicle integrator for $1000. http://www.belktronix.com/SplitKit.html

The Vehicle Integrator is http://www.belktronix.com/vehicleint.html 

Going Belktronix rather than Curtis would actually make the dual-motor setup less expensive than the Warp 11 route.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

dreamer

Going with a LOGISYSTEMS 144-156V/1000A would shave nearly $1000 off of the Warp 11 rout, compared to using a Zilla Z1KLV.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

his thread has sure got off the Electrocraft subject. When I see a new reply,
I look to see if there are ANY results of someone actually installing, using and being satisfied the the Electrocraft controller. I guess, not yet. :-(


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> his thread has sure got off the Electrocraft subject. When I see a new reply,
> I look to see if there are ANY results of someone actually installing, using and being satisfied the the Electrocraft controller. I guess, not yet. :-(


I've got the first part for you, my Electrocraft controller installed! 

I want my batteries!


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

EVMAN said:


> his thread has sure got off the Electrocraft subject. When I see a new reply,
> I look to see if there are ANY results of someone actually installing, using and being satisfied the the Electrocraft controller. I guess, not yet. :-(


Sorry for following into the off topic but I hate to see a $1000 saving overlooked  True that the *1000A ElectroCraft* would also save him about the same. (still waiting to hear about one of these in service.)


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

The Electrocraft 250V 1000A controller would be quite a controller...I too am anxious to see how it turns out...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I've got the first part for you, my Electrocraft controller installed!
> 
> I want my batteries!


Is that the 400A unit or something beefier ?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dreamer said:


> Is that the 400A unit or something beefier ?


It's the 400A unit. I'm hoping to not pull anywhere near that though.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

updates?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> The Electrocraft 250V 1000A controller would be quite a controller...I too am anxious to see how it turns out...


I'm getting close. I've got my batteries in and wired now. Just working on the control wiring etc. I have to go to Mexico for a week but I'll be pluggin away when I get back. I've been working on mounting the box back on my pick up. I just need a hand to lift it on. Not much left to buy. My charger and vacuum pump are on the way. Need a few other bits and pieces but nothing too significant.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

dreamer said:


> Well that's the question isn't it ? There doesn't seem to be a controller other than the Zilla that can get the most out of a Warp 11. A Zilla with Hairball ran over $2700 before Otmar gave up. I doubt the new company -- if it ever actually produces anything -- is going to sell them for less.
> 
> On the other hand, there are plenty of reasonably solid 500A controllers in the $1000 - $1500 range.
> 
> ...


The efficiency would drop under 60% with two motors and controllers so you can't expect some decent range


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

My batteries are in - unfortunately they won't all fit under the hood. I'm ordering a mounting plate and cables to reach the trunk. Last big item is to buy the charger. Should be running soon though.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I'm getting close. I've got my batteries in and wired now. Just working on the control wiring etc. I have to go to Mexico for a week but I'll be pluggin away when I get back. I've been working on mounting the box back on my pick up. I just need a hand to lift it on. Not much left to buy. My charger and vacuum pump are on the way. Need a few other bits and pieces but nothing too significant.


Do you have the 250V 1000A unit or the 800A unit?

Either way its going to be a rocket...AND, if you go full 250V, you'll have a broader torque curve than the usual 144V systems...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ClintK said:


> My batteries are in - unfortunately they won't all fit under the hood. I'm ordering a mounting plate and cables to reach the trunk. Last big item is to buy the charger. Should be running soon though.


Thanks for the update, looking forward to your results.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> The efficiency would drop under 60% with two motors and controllers so you can't expect some decent range


What is your basis for thinking that ? Parallel systems do not multiply efficiency ratings, only serial systems do that.

If a single motor + controller efficiency is 80%, then the efficiency of two such systems in parallel will also be 80%.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Do you have the 250V 1000A unit or the 800A unit?
> 
> Either way its going to be a rocket...AND, if you go full 250V, you'll have a broader torque curve than the usual 144V systems...


Mine is called an 800 amp unit. It was the first one built by Darius and I believe he put more IGBT capacity in it than later units. Most companies would call mine a 1000 amp unit I think. Whatever you call it, it has over 1000 amp IGBT rating and will handle up to about 300 V according to Darius. It's still a lead sled truck....so I don't think it will be a rocket...lol As long as it isn't a dog...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Would you mind giving a ballpark price for this controller?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> would you mind giving a ballpark price for this controller?


2600$.....

Edit: I meant 2400$ and thats for the 1000A model...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> 2600$.....


Say what!? Back on post #62 the price for the 800A controller was $1800...



EDIT: nope, it was $1449... the 1000A logisystems was listed as $1800, which is still more or less true.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

To be exact:



300zxev said:


> Hi
> 
> So the built in DC converter isn't what comes with the controller now ...
> I have never seen it represented on the website in the wiring diagram ...
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Say what!? Back on post #62 the price for the 800A controller was $1800...
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: nope, it was $1449... the 1000A logisystems was listed as $1800, which is still more or less true.


Quote as of 2/17/09....

2385$ for the 250V/1000A model...

1585$ for the 250V/800A model...

That post you referenced was dated 1/7/09......


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

The quote I received for $1449 was for a 144V 800A


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's quite a price jump between the 800 and 1000 amp controllers. $4 per amp.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's quite a price jump between the 800 and 1000 amp controllers. $4 per amp.


I guess... but whats the standard cost per amp for a controller?

Raptor2 is 192V 1200A peak for 3000$ (2.5$/amp) (15.625$/volt)

Electrocraft 250V 1000A peak for 2385$ (2.385$/amp) (9.54$/volt)

Zilla 1K-HV 300V 1000A peak 2675$ (2.675$/amp) (8.92$/volt)

Should we also combine that standard rating for cost per volt too??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was just stating there was a major price jump from 800 to 1000 amps on his controller, not comparing it to other models. I assume the layout is the same for both, do the component costs scale up that much for the extra 200 amps? Maybe they do.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Ah, yes, relative pricing metrics, otherwise known as, "the valiant attempt to dress up oranges so they look just like apples..."  I would say that $/kw is a more fair metric to use, but even still it's hard to determine without also knowing how long peak amps can be delivered, whether that is a useful length of time (e.g. - 10-20 seconds for the 1/4mi.; 3-5 seconds for stoplight to stoplight; maybe a minute or more while driving up a long interstate bridge... etc.)

Attempting to be strictly non-biased here (fer-reel)l, let's consider three different scenarios: driving around town; on the highway; the quarter-mile.

Around town

You floor the accelerator for 3 seconds and make it to the next stoplight and repeat. If the controller can cool down enough between each light to deliver the same rate of acceleration at the next then it is reasonable to use its peak amps rating. If, however, it takes several minutes for the controller to cool down then you might need to stick to the continuous rating.

On the highway

A more complicated scenario... it is easy enough to imagine tooling along at a constant 70 mph, but let's say it takes 250A to do that, your controller is rated for 300A continuous and you've already been driving for 15 minutes. No problems so far, and you even have a little extra for passing without raising the temp too much more. Now let's say the Sunshine Skyway Bridge (4% grade) looms in your windshield. Driving up a 4% grade takes nearly 3x as much current to maintain the same speed. As your controller starts to fade from ~750A back to 300A (or less, because the temperature has overshot) your speed will drop back as well. In this case, to around _30mph._ Might as well pull into the breakdown lane to let the controller cool off, and let that big ELECTRIC sticker on the rear window convince everyone what a joke EVs are...

1/4 mile

The easiest one to compare, because all you have to know is how many amps can the thing deliver for 10-20 seconds and, more specifically, if that time is longer than your car takes to do the run. If the controller can hold out for 15 seconds but your car is light enough to break into the 14's, you're golden. Otherwise, you got some optimizing to do.

And we haven't even gotten into the less tangible things like reliability, feature set, reputation, warranty, support, etc...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thats exactly why I listed "Peak" in the email and left your Soliton 1 off the list..your 1000A continuous rating throws a wrench in the comparison!

What we need is some real world driving comparisons...car & driver/Road & track style!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Highway cruising is something I often worry about with EVs. Even the most underpowered ICE powered passenger vehicles out there can hold 4% @ 70 MPH.

Looks like it would be best to simply aviod the freeway speed zones all together

Maybe like water cooling is the way to go for long term EV tech.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I admit I went out on what may be a rotten limb by assuming two controllers from the same builder with the same voltage limit would be rated under the same criteria, whatever that may be. Assuming that is correct, does it seem reasonable that the 1000 amp controller is 800 dollars more than the 800 amp controller?


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

Would love to hear how this controller is working out. May be just the ticket for my project.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Salty EV said:


> Would love to hear how this controller is working out. May be just the ticket for my project.


I've got my batteries boxes basically done, battery charger is on its way from China, and I just need a couple more cables.

I should have performance results of the controller in a month.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Charger arrived last week, batteries charged up this morning!

Wheels off the ground test just done with the ElectroCraft!

-0- problems. Throttle input / tire rotation very smooth.

Will have on the road test later today!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Charger arrived last week, batteries charged up this morning!
> 
> Wheels off the ground test just done with the ElectroCraft!
> 
> ...


Very kewl, thanks for the news. I'm getting close also.

Gary


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Maiden voyage on the road today. Semi-successful...

Operation was smooth, but initial acceleration was very poor (seemed to get decent power at higher speeds though). When I gave it a lot of power at low speeds, the controller would cut off. I do have an ammeter in the car, it remained very low during acceleration (sub 10) but as I gained speed it crept up. The amp draw peaked at maybe 80 amps at 15 mph. I did not accelerate past there.

Darius setup overspeed protection for my controller, but he gave me a chip to switch out in case it gave me problems. I'm wondering if the overspeed is cutting off the controller when I give it full throttle.

I sent an e-mail to Darius asking for help; I'll keep you guys posted!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

2nd drive completed, night drive with my wife and the convertible top down! 

Went a little bit longer today. Shifting without a clutch may be an issue! I can do it in a gas car reasonably well - just need to learn the magic time/touch for the electric.

Again very slow acceleration from a stop. Using 1st gear only. 2nd gear it barely moves from a stop. At around 15 mph acceleration and amp usage is much better. I pulled close to 150 amps at one point (around 15 mph), and acceleration was good.

Motor and controller were warm afterwards, but definitely not hot (held my hand on them). Keep in mind it was 8:30pm when I did my drive, but the temperature was still 90+ degrees! (actually kind of a cool night)

LiFePO4s have a VERY FLAT discharge! It's going to be hard to keep track of my DoD.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

You don't suppose the throttle pot is giving a weak signal to the controller at the start of the throw?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> You don't suppose the throttle pot is giving a weak signal to the controller at the start of the throw?


The Pot Box isn't giving full range (goes up to about 4k), but the controller cuts off when my pedal is about 3/4 down (maybe 3k) right now anyways. So it sounds like the problem is the premature cutoff...


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Went a little bit longer today. Shifting without a clutch may be an issue! I can do it in a gas car reasonably well - just need to learn the magic time/touch for the electric.


Without regen braking, electric motors can take a *long* time to spin down to a lower RPM when you are shifting up. Especially if you have a nice big flywheel on your driveshaft. I noticed a big difference on the ElectroJeep when I enabled regen - shifting without a clutch is (almost) trivial. This does not help you DC guys much, though


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

racunniff said:


> Without regen braking, electric motors can take a *long* time to spin down to a lower RPM when you are shifting up. Especially if you have a nice big flywheel on your driveshaft. I noticed a big difference on the ElectroJeep when I enabled regen - shifting without a clutch is (almost) trivial. This does not help you DC guys much, though


My coupler is actually very beefy! I'm sure I could lighten it up quite a bit and shift easier / have better performance in general.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Darius replied back...
He's thinking it's either the under-voltage protection or possibly over-current protection. He asked for me to check the voltage drop as I drive.

And I just took it for a drive...
I hooked up my handy Radio Shack multimeter to the controller and mounted it in view of the driver seat. From a dead stop, as I apply throttle pressure, the voltage will steadily dip down. If I push past around 90 Volts, the controller cuts power. I did notice at higher speeds, I could push around 85 Volts before the controller cuts power. Bare in mind there is a lag in my multimeter so actual voltage may have been lower.

I'm actually surprised the Lithiums are dipping this much. From the various LiFePO4 test threads, it didn't sound like there was much of a drop under load. I am not faulting the controller at all, as I originally ordered the controller for a 120V Lead Acid pack. It sounds like the controller is functioning perfectly well if a 120V lead pack were to drop that low.

Again, I'll keep you posted!


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Its not unusual for LFP cells to drop to 3.0V or even lower under higher loads. Check all connections , make sure none are warm ( indicating voltage drop ).

Sounds like 90V under load is pretty normal for your pack of 100ah, so your results are quite normal.

Can Darius advise how difficult it is to lower LVC to say 78V ? Would you have to ship it back to him?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Its not unusual for LFP cells to drop to 3.0V or even lower under higher loads. Check all connections , make sure none are warm ( indicating voltage drop ).
> 
> Sounds like 90V under load is pretty normal for your pack of 100ah, so your results are quite normal.


That's true.. my controller was cutting out at about 3.0V/cell which I guess isn't bad.



dimitri said:


> Can Darius advise how difficult it is to lower LVC to say 78V ? Would you have to ship it back to him?


Sounds like he will just give me instructions and I can fix it on my own.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Heard back from Darius at ElectroCraft today. He told me which resistor to change to adjust the low voltage cutoff. I'll swap it out in the morning and take her for another test drive tomorrow.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Heard back from Darius at ElectroCraft today. He told me which resistor to change to adjust the low voltage cutoff. I'll swap it out in the morning and take her for another test drive tomorrow.


Got resistance changed, didn't notice an improvement though.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Clint,

First, congratulations on getting your conversion close to completion!

Second, I sympathize with your teething pains. Hopefully, you'll work the bugs out soon and will have the performance you expect.

I'm getting pretty close too and am dreading the possible glitches. After all this time, energy and money, I'm anxious for it to work properly on the first try!

Take care and good luck.

Rob


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

RKM said:


> Clint,
> 
> First, congratulations on getting your conversion close to completion!
> 
> ...


Thanks. It's such a big project, there will always be a few things to work out at the end. I was excited just to have the car move when I put the key in and pushed on the pedal!

Been working with Darius more - have had some improvement to the controller. Still needs work from a stop, but I pulled 300 amps at 20 mph and boy did the car want to fly!


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> The Pot Box isn't giving full range (goes up to about 4k), but the controller cuts off when my pedal is about 3/4 down (maybe 3k) right now anyways. So it sounds like the problem is the premature cutoff...


 
Back to that Pot-Box thing (in relation to your low-end performance)...

How come your pot-box only gives you 1.25 ohms at half throw? It would seem that at 1/2-3/4 throw it should be more than double that.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Back to that Pot-Box thing (in relation to your low-end performance)...
> 
> How come your pot-box only gives you 1.25 ohms at half throw? It would seem that at 1/2-3/4 throw it should be more than double that.


Hmm, that may have been recorded before I adjusted it. I just rechecked it and have a very good throw from 0 to 5k Ohm.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Hmm, that may have been recorded before I adjusted it. I just rechecked it and have a very good throw from 0 to 5k Ohm.


Yeah, I thought about it later on the way to work this past morning and the apparent low readings may be from digital multimeter delay and how quickly you were cycling the pot-box.

I guess for taking the reading, using an analog meter might be a better device to use for a better one-to-one throw/reading for the pot-box throw.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

General controller question...
From a stop/upon initial acceleration, do controllers typically have high motor amps and low battery amps?
And as the vehicle speeds up/motor turns faster, battery amps climb / motor amps decrease?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ClintK - my other reply got lost in the ether somewhere so I'll try again...

You got that mostly right... as motor RPM climbs, battery amps will increase until they equal motor amps (ie - the controller is at 100% duty cycle). The only time motor amps would be decreasing while battery amps and RPM are still increasing is if the controller is already starting to throttle back on the allowed motor current because of thermal limiting.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> ClintK - my other reply got lost in the ether somewhere so I'll try again...
> 
> You got that mostly right... as motor RPM climbs, battery amps will increase until they equal motor amps (ie - the controller is at 100% duty cycle). The only time motor amps would be decreasing while battery amps and RPM are still increasing is if the controller is already starting to throttle back on the allowed motor current because of thermal limiting.


Is the amount of motor amps pulled from a stop/(given RPM) more/less independent of controller design? a.k.a. Will a Kelly, Curtis, Soliton, etc.. all pull roughly the same motor current for the same acceleration? (Assuming same battery voltage and cool temperatures.)

Thanks!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Is the amount of motor amps pulled from a stop/(given RPM) more/less independent of controller design?...


Yep, and battery voltage doesn't even factor into it unless it sags so low that the controller duty cycle hits 100%.

Is there a problem you are trying to figure out?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Yep, and battery voltage doesn't even factor into it unless it sags so low that the controller duty cycle hits 100%.
> 
> Is there a problem you are trying to figure out?


I'm just trying to understand why my acceleration (and amp draw) are low off the line, but very nice when up to speed. It sounds like my issue would be the same with any 400 Amp (motor rated) controller.

My performance is like an internal combustion engine, but an electric motor is supposed to be the opposite!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I'm just trying to understand why my acceleration (and amp draw) are low off the line...


The amp draw from your battery pack will likely be low off the line, but if you are "flooring the accelerator" then any controller SHOULD attempt to deliver maximum motor amps. One culprit could be that the motor current ramps up at a very slow rate.... If we set the ramp rate in a Soliton1 to the minimum of 100A/s it behaves exactly like you are describing... very much like a small ICE off the line and then starts accelerating better and better as motor current ramps up to 1000A (which would take 10 seconds from the time you floor the pedal!)

So maybe ask Darius how long it takes the current to ramp from 0 to 400A once you floor the accelerator?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The amp draw from your battery pack will likely be low off the line, but if you are "flooring the accelerator" then any controller SHOULD attempt to deliver maximum motor amps. One culprit could be that the motor current ramps up at a very slow rate.... If we set the ramp rate in a Soliton1 to the minimum of 100A/s it behaves exactly like you are describing... very much like a small ICE off the line and then starts accelerating better and better as motor current ramps up to 1000A (which would take 10 seconds from the time you floor the pedal!)
> 
> So maybe ask Darius how long it takes the current to ramp from 0 to 400A once you floor the accelerator?


I can't fully floor the accelerator - the controller cuts off if I give it too much throttle at low speeds. Is the ramp rate based off throttle position, or just if power is being applied? It doesn't matter how long I hold low throttle, as soon as I push it harder the controller will still cut off at the same position. Thanks for the help / explanations - very educational!

Darius just replied back with a few more adjustments to try - so far customer service has been outstanding.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I can't fully floor the accelerator - the controller cuts off if I give it too much throttle at low speeds. Is the ramp rate based off throttle position, or just if power is being applied? It doesn't matter how long I hold low throttle, as soon as I push it harder the controller will still cut off at the same position. Thanks for the help / explanations - very educational!
> 
> Darius just replied back with a few more adjustments to try - so far customer service has been outstanding.


So, just to be clear... the controller cuts out whenever you pass a particlular position on your throttle... regardless of anything else?


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2009)

Is the cutout consistent every time at a specific point? If so change your pot. Also hook up your amp gauge to the motor side so you can monitor your motor amps. You already know your battery amps. Battery amps start low and rise as you accelerate. What is your controller doing? What made you choose that controller and such a low amp. The company does make a higher amp controller. I'd guess it is the type of pot you have. Try another if you can. I know you say your pot registers from o to 5k but it still seems like it could be your pot. Are you actually using the full range of that pot? I tried one and it used only part and limited my power real bad. Put my PB-6 back in and got my speed back. 

Just seems like that is the issue. Not an internal shunt thickness. Or your motor has some issues you are not aware of at this time. 



Pete


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I have reconfirmed again, the Pot Box gives a smooth resistance change from 0 to 5.2k Ohm. I do have the Pot Box microswitch attached to my precharge resistor/contactor; when the contactor closes the resistance is about 0.8 Ohms.

After adjusting the internal shunt, it feels like I can give nearly full input with the Pot Box before it cuts off. However, acceleration from 0 to 5 mph is still painfully slow. Acceleration thereafter gets increasingly better.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ClintK said:


> However, acceleration from 0 to 5 mph is still painfully slow. Acceleration thereafter gets increasingly better.


Something's really fishy with your setup, you should have more or less instant torque and full acceleration from start and then acceleration should get worse with speed (when motor current starts to drop), not better. This sounds like either excessively slow current slew rate or some kind of over current protection kicking in.

It'd be REALLY interesting to see a plot over your motor current...


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I have reconfirmed again, the Pot Box gives a smooth resistance change from 0 to 5.2k Ohm. I do have the Pot Box microswitch attached to my precharge resistor/contactor; when the contactor closes the resistance is about 0.8 Ohms.
> 
> After adjusting the internal shunt, it feels like I can give nearly full input with the Pot Box before it cuts off. However, acceleration from 0 to 5 mph is still painfully slow. Acceleration thereafter gets increasingly better.


Your controller can be easily checked for proper current and voltage operation. This will also check your pot box operation.

*For Current*: Your current shunt and meter must be connected in the motor loop for this current test. If your current shunt is connected in the battery loop, this test will not work.

Park car with plenty of frontal clearance. Apply emergency brake. Place transmission is highest gear, fourth in your case. Apply service brake with left foot, turn on ignition, and depress accelerator with right foot. Vehicle may torque (twist) and the ammeter should indicate 400 amps for your 400 amp controller. This completes the current test.

*For Voltage*: Disconnect either motor lead and place a 100 watt, 120 volt regular house lamp in _series_ with the disconnected motor lead. Place a voltmeter across the lamp. Turn on ignition and depress the accelerator. Thee motor will not turn, but the lamp brightness and voltage will vary as the accelerator position is changed. With no accelerator pressure = 0 volts on lamp, with full accelerator pressure = 96 volts on lamp. Your controller operates as a fancy lamp dimmer.

It's as easy as that.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineeering (25 Years Building EV Controllers)


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tried my 800 amp Electrocraft controller yesterday. The "wheels-up" test went fine. Everything worked the way it was suppose to. Tested my contactors...first one on with key, second one clicked in when Hi-pedal switch active. Smooth acceleration, with wheels spinning. Later on in the evening, I took it out the diveway and did a little loop around the u-drive and road. It cuts out the same way as ClintK's does. It will only pull about 20 amps (battery side)... if I push the accelerator, it just cuts out. I have two shunts so I checked motor amps. Looks like the 20 battery amps equals about 200 motor amps. Does that sound about right?

On the plus side, Darius contacted me a few weeks ago and told me of a change that he needs to make. He said I could bring the controller in anytime and he would do it at no cost...with no time limit/expiration on the offer. He did say it should work ok the way it is though, but have low acceleration. A few days ago he said he said he decided to go with a more significant change to address this issue and would need about a week (or I could bring it in that day for his original fix). So,... I was expecting this issue. Kind of a bummer...but I think he will rectify it soon enough and not charge anything for it. I think perhaps its some growing pains with higher current design...as he has done a lot of low current ones. 

Regards,
Gary


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Gary,

So, the grin is delayed. I've come to expect that a major project, such as this, may not work perfectly on the first try. Sounds like Darius will take care of you. Dissapointing though.

I've got a charger problem, which Bryan is working to make right. I'll be swapping my current one for a new one in the next week or so.

It's good to know that you are that much closer.

Take care.

Rob


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Rob,

Ya, I'm actually ok with it so far because I know he is looking after me. I think he is capable of fixing it too so...we'll see. It was kind of a buzz though! Was nice to see my control board work the way it was suppose to. The only "problem" I had was the polarity on my controller cooling fans. Won't work the wrong way...lol I put a heat gun on the thermal switch and about 15 seconds later...whirrrrr.. ... oh ya, one other faux pas... I wired them through the hi-pedal/ignition feed...this means they will only run when foot is on the pedal. Not good, just have to move the wire a couple of spots on the terminal strip...


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Tried my 800 amp Electrocraft controller yesterday. The "wheels-up" test went fine. Everything worked the way it was suppose to. Tested my contactors...first one on with key, second one clicked in when Hi-pedal switch active. Smooth acceleration, with wheels spinning. Later on in the evening, I took it out the diveway and did a little loop around the u-drive and road. It cuts out the same way as ClintK's does. It will only pull about 20 amps (battery side)... if I push the accelerator, it just cuts out. I have two shunts so I checked motor amps. Looks like the 20 battery amps equals about 200 motor amps. Does that sound about right?
> 
> On the plus side, Darius contacted me a few weeks ago and told me of a change that he needs to make. He said I could bring the controller in anytime and he would do it at no cost...with no time limit/expiration on the offer. He did say it should work ok the way it is though, but have low acceleration. A few days ago he said he said he decided to go with a more significant change to address this issue and would need about a week (or I could bring it in that day for his original fix). So,... I was expecting this issue. Kind of a bummer...but I think he will rectify it soon enough and not charge anything for it. I think perhaps its some growing pains with higher current design...as he has done a lot of low current ones.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're having the same issues I've been having. Being able to monitor the motor amps will be a big help though. The cut-off problem with mine is pretty much fixed, but my acceleration is still very slow from a stop. Darius is helping me out with that problem right now. It sounds like he will be sending me a new chip - so it may be a bit before I'm able to test / report the results.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Last post was 10-21-2009........

Almost 5 months ago 

Did anyone get ON THE ROAD with this controller YET??????

(oh, and STAY on the road without liberating smoke) 

Good Luck


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

hey. OK I guess I should post an update. I haven't bugged Darius since I bought my Soliton however the other day figured I should ask him if he finished his dyno. You see, my last message to him was that I would not be satisfied unless he could demonstrate my controller performing with a significant load. I supplied him some info on building his own dyno to do this and said it would be done around x-mas. Last week I emailed him. He indicated that he had finished his dyno and that he had two upgrades that he would be happy to do for me. One was for desaturation and one for a Hall sensor. (Others will know about this stuff than I). 
I may not need this controller anymore, but if I am ever to offer it for sale, it must come either with a video of it on a dyno or in a vehicle. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Cheers.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

Actually, I was wondering about ClintK's progress since he's in the USA.
I was wondering about his real-world/actual on-the-road experiences(?)

DIYguy, it's good that U are close to the "factory".

Never heard of Soliton(?)
How long in business??
How many controllers actually on the road now??

afn
T


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Never heard of Soliton(?)


 Really? Scroll up and look at the advertisements on the right side of your screen.


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## EVMAN (Jul 26, 2007)

tomofreno said:


> Really? Scroll up and look at the advertisements on the right side of your screen.


Oh Kay......I C it now! 

Ouch!  More expensive than a Zilla ! 

I see it says: "built to order" Hmmmmmmm

Wonder how many actually have been made so far??

Oh Kay then, 
How many folks on this list have one installed
AND
have over 1000EVmiles (troublefree) on it???????
The VW in the YouTube doesn't count 

Sorry, won't hijack this thread any longer.

I'm mainly interested in the Electrocraft controller that this thread started
back in *December of 2008*. A year and 2 months ago.

Oh Kay then, 
Same question for the Electrocraft:
How many folks on this list have one installed
AND
have over 1000EVmiles (troublefree) on it???????


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> hey. OK I guess I should post an update. I haven't bugged Darius since I bought my Soliton however the other day figured I should ask him if he finished his dyno. You see, my last message to him was that I would not be satisfied unless he could demonstrate my controller performing with a significant load. I supplied him some info on building his own dyno to do this and said it would be done around x-mas. Last week I emailed him. He indicated that he had finished his dyno and that he had two upgrades that he would be happy to do for me. One was for desaturation and one for a Hall sensor. (Others will know about this stuff than I).





EVMAN said:


> Actually, I was wondering about ClintK's progress since he's in the USA.
> I was wondering about his real-world/actual on-the-road experiences(?)
> 
> DIYguy, it's good that U are close to the "factory".


I had sent my controller to Darius for updates about a month ago - I got a message from him a few days ago saying it was in the mail back to me with the desaturation and Hall sensor. He also mentioned he tested it with a new hydraulic dyno and it got nearly 500 Amps.

If the controller arrives this coming week, I'll be able to test it Saturday and let you guys know. Sounds promising and I'm looking forward to getting the car back on the road. I'm in Texas now , but that means I have to get it inspected before its road legal .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> Oh Kay......I C it now!
> 
> Ouch!  More expensive than a Zilla !
> 
> ...


Actually you can find it for a better price, and do a search on this forum and you can find the initial design thread for the controller and some people who have used it.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

EVMAN said:


> have over 1000EVmiles (troublefree) on it???????


Is 4000 miles enough for you to stop insinuating things?

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155059#post155059

Unfortunately that thread got locked by moderators due to excessive flaming so lately Dimitri hasn't bothered to report back here anymore, but as far as I know he keeps ticking troublefree miles in his EV.

If he weren't, I'd sure be one of the first to hear about it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

My truck is not licensed yet.. but i have snuck out on the back roads a half dozen times. I've never had any issues with the Soliton. I wired it up and it has worked as it is suppose to. I ran the truck up to 130 km/hr and pulled 1000 battery amps with it. I have maybe 110 - 120 km on it. I've also moved the truck around, in/out of garage and off on coutless times. No probs.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Success!

Darius did some modifications to my controller, and I got it back a few weeks ago. I've been busy moving into a new house, but I've finally been able to install it to test out.

HUGE difference in performance!

The car isn't legal in Texas so I just did a little forward/reverse in my dad's (very large) driveway. The car hauls butt now. I chirped the tires in reverse and it easily takes off in second. I'm going to need to do some adjustment on my Pot Box to lessen the starts! I unfortunately wasn't able to do a thorough test, but the initial take looks awesome.

The new house is keeping me busy (and it's an hour away from the car), so it will be a few more weeks before I get it ready for inspection, inspected, and registered, but the new controller is looking -very- good.

If you purchased the ElectroCraft controller, send it to Darius for modification, it is WELL worth it!


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## hardwired (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for the update I've been waiting to hear what was happening before making a decision.


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

My Electrocraft 800 Amp is a total failure again ! Now it is back at Darius's shop again. Anouther total burn up. It burned up on it's first start up a year and a half ago, went back for repair, and 5 more times for current and acceleration problems. It now has a total of 12 Klms on my truck, and after investing in new batteries, another total burn up.

I sent it back to Darius at Electrocraft, and now he wants me to pay another $ 900.00 to repair it again. So much for warrantee. I just ordered a new Curtis 1231, so I'm not even sure if I'll pay to have the Electrocraft repaired. After my initial investment, 7 times taking it back, and now $ 900.00 to fix it, I might just cut my losses now.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

damn, sorry to hear.

you could look into a soliton-1 or soliton-jr or even the Netgain warp-drive, something more mainstream and robust.


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## Forklift Guy (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks Bowser

I went with a Curtis 1231 C, for on thing it was available for imediate delivery, not a bad price now ( compared to throwing more money into the Electrocraft ), and being in the forklift industry the Curtis line has a great reputation with the lower voltage controllers, so I thought I'd give it a try. Atleast they have a warrantee.

I did try to check stock on a Soliton Jr, back they were on back order. It took 7 weeks to get the Electrocraft, so Im alittle sceptical about being on a back order list. After insurance and new batteries this month, I just wanted to get on the road. I ordered the Curtis on Tuesday, and it should be here by Fiday.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Very long time since my last post - been way too busy.

Anyways my update on the ElectroCraft - it worked great for a few runs, then had a nice puff of smoke and was dead. After another warranty return I got it back and its power was unusable.

My EV has been sitting idle for over a year now. I've got one more idea for trying to get the controller to run (disabling the pot-box contactor), but I don't have much faith in that. For the test I have to buy a new 12V battery for the EV (see sitting idle 1 year) which is why I haven't tried it already.

I'm now looking into the Soliton JR; I've effectively given up on the ElectroCraft and my $1000.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a shame, but it seems as if it's time to move on, bite the bullet, get a Jr, and have a car you can drive.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Very long time since my last post - been way too busy.
> 
> Anyways my update on the ElectroCraft - it worked great for a few runs, then had a nice puff of smoke and was dead. After another warranty return I got it back and its power was unusable.
> 
> ...


Clint, while I am hoping to be there competition in the future, at the present time I would highly recommend the Soliton jr; aside from a casting issue which they quickly resolved, I have good results with mine. I currently have over 1000 miles on mine and all is good. They do require the water cooling however, the air cooling alone is really insufficient for anything more than an E-cycle.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

blackpanther-st said:


> Clint, while I am hoping to be there competition in the future...


I guess you've come a long way from when I helped you with your homebrew controller in this thread back in 2009, eh? Well, good luck with the new business.



blackpanther-st said:


> They do require the water cooling however, the air cooling alone is really insufficient for anything more than an E-cycle.


Does your vehicle weigh more than 2500lbs? Are you running the controller at a low voltage so that it has to deliver high currents more of the time? Lots of hills in your area?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> After another warranty return I got it back and its power was unusable.
> 
> I've got one more idea for trying to get the controller to run (disabling the pot-box contactor), but I don't have much faith in that.


I wanted to give an update on the ElectroCraft... I should have had more faith - I disabled the pot-box contactor and the controller has been running great. I've put many miles on the car since finally getting it road legal.

I don't push the controller much, but I've still pulled 300+ Amps and the car accelerates very well in 2nd gear.


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