# [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....

1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack

Motor $470
VFD $1600
Batteries $1500-$3000

Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should I 
use 48 volt stacks?

Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been able 
to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory, this 
should charge the batteries during regen braking.

I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units, already 
set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and 
programmable torque curves and torque boost.

Thanks!
Paul, BSEE, LCOD*

*Loose Cannon on Deck

[1]
Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" w/keyway 
Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95 
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=


[2]
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)	
Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm) 
Weight (lbs) 26.4
$1597

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bob Gruenwald did this with Yasgawa drives,
http://home.cinci.rr.com/emsdir/emsdir/products.htm
Or go to www.fluxvector.com
Several of the Formula Lighting cars used his drives,
http://www.nd.edu/~ndracing/others/others.html
I haven't seen him on this list lately, but I assume
he's still in business.
Rod




> --- Paul <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past,
> > but why can't I ....
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I didn't look at the VFD but it looked good to me until I got to the 
weight of the motor : )
200kg is a lot. doable but a lot. the tesla roadster motor weighs 35kg 
or so iirc. you could probably drive a funny car with that motor 

Dan




> Paul wrote:
> > Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
> >
> > 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This can be done, but keep in mind your peak power will be limited by the 
VFD. High power VFDs are usually very bulky and not cheap, but if you have 
a line on a surplus one, it could be done.

Also, a 30hp industrial motor is going to be large and VERY heavy. They are 
typically non-optimized for weight.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack


> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 
> [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should 
> I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been 
> able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory, 
> this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units, 
> already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" 
> w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The trick would be to find one of those surplus Ford Siemens motors that are 
running around. Use the VFD to drive that.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack


>I didn't look at the VFD but it looked good to me until I got to the
> weight of the motor : )
> 200kg is a lot. doable but a lot. the tesla roadster motor weighs 35kg
> or so iirc. you could probably drive a funny car with that motor 
>
> Dan
>
>


> > Paul wrote:
> >> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
> >>
> >> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also, that's a lot of batteries! You can probably get by with less. Many 
VFDs I have seen will be happy at 280v. 320v is what you normally have on a 
DC bus after rectification of 3-phase 240v. It's lower on 208, so most VFDs 
will do this.

In addition to the massive weight of the industrial motor, you'll have all 
those batteries to contend with, and then 30hp peak is going to be pretty 
whimpy!

I'd say you could get a 10hp motor and drive it with a 50hp VFD. Providing 
you can even find a 240v VFD with that power. Most are 480v.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack


> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 
> [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should 
> I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been 
> able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory, 
> this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units, 
> already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" 
> w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't have time to search again, but I saw one of those motors on eBay
within the past few days.

On Nov 30, 2007 12:20 PM, (-Phil-) <[email protected]> wrote:
> The trick would be to find one of those surplus Ford Siemens motors that are
> running around. Use the VFD to drive that.
>
> -Phil
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Paul,

You have a valid idea, but.......



> --- Paul <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past,
> > but why can't I ....
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Paul wrote:
> > 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> > 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
> > 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

but the problem with a bldg vfd is the output freq. may change but the motor never is programmed to exceed the rated rpm 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack




> Paul wrote:
> > 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> > 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
> > 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> > The problem with a bldg vfd is the output freq. may change but the
> > motor never is programmed to exceed the rated rpm
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks to everyone that replied to my original post. From you I have 
learned: A 30 hp 440 lb motor is way too large, go with 10-15 hp (150 lbs), 
maybe a 4 pole. Pay the extra money for a flux vector drive. Lower the bus 
voltage and carry fewer batteries. Oversize the VFD 50-100%.

Based on your suggestions and comments I have revised my plan:

1. 10-15 HP 208 VAC induction motor 150 lbs (3550 rpm but maybe 1750 4 pole). 
$200

2. 20-30 hp Flux Vector Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD)[1] $1500-$2100

3. Series 24 12 volt batteries to produce 288 VDC for the DC bus on the VFD.

BTW, the Hitachi drives are speced to 400 Hz output. They are available up to 
100 hp with a 230 VAC input (L300P-750LFU2). Even though most people 
run their VFDs from 1 or 3 phase AC, they can be fed from a DC bus. 
It is easy to do with no modifications. Hitachi has a pdf that gives the 
basics. Simply tie the inputs L1,L2,L3 together to the B+. You move a 
jumper and run B- to another terminal. A Hitachi field engineer told me the 
200V class drives have a bus overvoltage cutout at 380 VDC and a low voltage 
cutout at 200 VDC. Other than staying away from those limits, he thought it 
should work fine in an EV application.

If I understood another suggestion, I could use a 1750 RPM motor and run it 
at 3550 RPM (120 Hz) when I need to do 60 mph. The bearings and armature will 
take the higher rpm as that is what is used in the 3550 motors. I really like 
this approach. Maybe it could direct drive the rear end and do away with the 
transmission? 

The Siemens-Ford AC motor on E-Bay looked interesting but it is $1900-$2000 
and needs a larger VFD than I can afford.

I have obtained a 2002 Chevy S10 with a blown engine - free for me to haul 
off . . . .

Thanks, I'll be back,

--Paul

[1]http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Flux+Vector+Drive/SJ300-220LFU.html

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Paul,

A few comments inserted.....

Jeff M



> --- Paul <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks to everyone that replied to my original post.
> > From you I have
> ...


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