# [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jim,

You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is 
about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor may 
be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are 
equal then:

115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine

28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.

8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor

6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp


If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:

115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw

33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp


Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a 
engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:

33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle 
> based on its mpg performance?
>
> For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of 
> kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
>
> If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would cover 
> most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic 
> vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
>
> I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that are
built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?

Jim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Hello Jim,
>
> You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is
> about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor
may
> be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are
> equal then:
>
> 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
>
> 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
>
> 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
>
> 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
>
>
> If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
>
> 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
>
> 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
>
>
> Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a
> engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
>
> 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> > based on its mpg performance?
> >
> > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of
> > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> >
> > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
cover
> > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> >
> > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> >
> > Any Ideas?
> >
> > Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that 
> are
> built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
>
> Jim

For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent grade 
hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per 
mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out, it 
then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs 
the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all the 
accessories.

Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always 
starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of the 
distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination and 
one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days 
without seeing any other cars on the road.

In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow, 
running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights 
and over 50 instrument lights.

Roland
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Hello Jim,
> >
> > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's is
> > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric motor
> may
> > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs are
> > equal then:
> >
> > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> >
> > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> >
> > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> >
> > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> >
> >
> > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> >
> > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> >
> > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> >
> >
> > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then a
> > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> >
> > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> > > based on its mpg performance?
> > >
> > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount 
> > > of
> > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > >
> > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> cover
> > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > >
> > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > >
> > > Any Ideas?
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No stop lights? No traffic? Can I come live with you. I am in Vancouver BC
Canada, rush hour(week?) across the bridge near my house almost never stops.
As for stop lights. The local city planners response to anything is another
traffic light.
The idea around here seems to be if all the cars are parked in traffic jams
you won't have as many injuries in auto accidents!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> > are
> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> >
> > Jim
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
grade
> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out,
it
> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
the
> accessories.
>
> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
the
> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
and
> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>
> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
> and over 50 instrument lights.
>
> Roland
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Hello Jim,
> > >
> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
is
> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
motor
> > may
> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
are
> > > equal then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > >
> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > >
> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > >
> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then
a
> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
vehicle
> > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > >
> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
amount
> > > > of
> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > >
> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> > cover
> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
aerodynamic
> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > >
> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jim,

Sometimes about once a week I may have to stop when going to a shopping 
center. I can travel over four miles on frontage roads off the main roads 
and the roads in front of the shopping center shops which has no stop 
lights.

If I have to go to many stores along this route, I just go from parking lot 
to parking lot for that distance. It is sure nice to see the battery ampere 
usage is only 5 to 30 ampere usage. I am normally driving in 1st gear with 
a overall ratio of 19.5:1 which keeps the motor rpm up to about 4000 to 5000 
rpm.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> No stop lights? No traffic? Can I come live with you. I am in Vancouver BC
> Canada, rush hour(week?) across the bridge near my house almost never 
> stops.
> As for stop lights. The local city planners response to anything is 
> another
> traffic light.
> The idea around here seems to be if all the cars are parked in traffic 
> jams
> you won't have as many injuries in auto accidents!
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an 
> > > optimum
> > > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles 
> > > that
> > > are
> > > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> > For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
> grade
> > hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> > mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll 
> > out,
> it
> > then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which 
> > runs
> > the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
> the
> > accessories.
> >
> > Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I 
> > always
> > starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
> the
> > distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
> and
> > one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> > without seeing any other cars on the road.
> >
> > In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of 
> > snow,
> > running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external 
> > lights
> > and over 50 instrument lights.
> >
> > Roland
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello Jim,
> > > >
> > > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
> is
> > > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
> motor
> > > may
> > > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
> are
> > > > equal then:
> > > >
> > > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > > >
> > > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > > >
> > > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > > >
> > > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > > >
> > > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > > >
> > > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph 
> > > > then
> a
> > > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > > >
> > > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > > >
> > > > Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
> vehicle
> > > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
> amount
> > > > > of
> > > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that 
> > > > > would
> > > cover
> > > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
> aerodynamic
> > > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > > >
> > > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any Ideas?
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting some
disturbing results.
Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
significant number of cars were converted to electricity?

If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
year,
300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year

I found a US government website that lists the entire US power production
capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.

1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.

I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US for
2001 at 142 MILLION.

If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
times the electricity that we currently do.

Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
requirements that we will have to solve.

BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or natural
gas production.

I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and keep
it to ourselves!

I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.

Jim




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> > are
> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> >
> > Jim
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
grade
> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out,
it
> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
the
> accessories.
>
> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
the
> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
and
> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>
> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
> and over 50 instrument lights.
>
> Roland
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Hello Jim,
> > >
> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
is
> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
motor
> > may
> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
are
> > > equal then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > >
> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > >
> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > >
> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then
a
> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
vehicle
> > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > >
> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
amount
> > > > of
> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > >
> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> > cover
> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
aerodynamic
> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > >
> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Oct 2007 at 12:21, two EVDL members wrote:
> 
> > > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> 
> I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> 
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> 
> I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> 
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> 
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> 
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
> 
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> natural
> gas production.
> 
> I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> keep
> it to ourselves!
> 
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> 
> Jim
> 

So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of electricity that my home uses in a month.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If the vehicle traveled 1 mile in an hour and used 300 watts for that whole
hour it would consume 300 watt hours. Travelling at 60 miles per
hour(ignoring air friction) it still consumes 300 watts per mile but crams
60 of them into an hour resulting in 18000 watts consumed in an hour.
adding the /hour to the equation just tells you how long you sustained the
power consumption.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?




> > On 12 Oct 2007 at 12:21, two EVDL members wrote:
> >
> > > > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number?
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline that
would no longer need to be done?


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
To: EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?




> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> 
> I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> 
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> 
> I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> 
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> 
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> 
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
> 
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> natural
> gas production.
> 
> I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> keep
> it to ourselves!
> 
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> 
> Jim
> 

So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
electricity that my home uses in a month.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jim,

Are you confusing energy and power? Watt-hours and
watts?

Jeff M





> --- Jim L <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have just been running some numbers through my
> > calculator and getting some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire and
batteries takes electricity too remember.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
that
> would no longer need to be done?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jim L
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> > some
> > disturbing results.
> > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> >
> > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> > year,
> > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> >
> > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > production
> > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> >
> > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> >
> > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > for
> > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> >
> > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> > times the electricity that we currently do.
> >
> > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> > requirements that we will have to solve.
> >
> > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > natural
> > gas production.
> >
> > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> > keep
> > it to ourselves!
> >
> > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> electricity that my home uses in a month.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jim L writes:
> 
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.

Yes. You're not counting the electricity used to make gasoline, which
would be freed up for other purposes if not used for making gasoline.

If I remember correctly, Terry Tamminen, in his book "Lives Per Gallon",
calculated about 8kwh of electricity to make one gallon of gasoline.

As it happens, that's about how much electricity my Geo Prizm uses per
day for a 35 mile commute, which is about the range that a gallon of gas
would give me. So my vehicle's electricity use causes no net burden on
the electrical grid.

Ralph

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry to be argumentative but how does that compare with the power to make
all the stuff that goes into an ice car.
I think that it should be at least break even or lean to the electric side
as having to use less energy. 

Not that this really matters to the US electric grid as both of the electric
motors and the gas engine would most likely not be made in the US. 




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jim L
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?

I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire and
batteries takes electricity too remember.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
that
> would no longer need to be done?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jim L
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> > some
> > disturbing results.
> > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> >
> > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> > year,
> > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> >
> > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > production
> > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> >
> > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> >
> > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > for
> > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> >
> > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> > times the electricity that we currently do.
> >
> > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> > requirements that we will have to solve.
> >
> > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > natural
> > gas production.
> >
> > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> > keep
> > it to ourselves!
> >
> > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> electricity that my home uses in a month.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, I want you to put in your two cents worth. as well as everyone else. I
think I have already seen at least one error in my thinking thanks to this
feedback.
The 1 million megawatts is a terawatt. or a trillion watts. my original
calculation was missing three zeroes. (These numbers are so large that its
hard to keep track of that many zeroes!)
That puts production at about 8760 billion kw/h.

Using Ralphs power consumption numbers of .22 kw/h per mile multiplied by
8000 mile pers year=1760 kw/h per year per vehicle. Assuming all were as
efficient.
142 million vehicles x 1760 kw/h =249.92 billion kw/h per year required.

OK, That looks a little more do-able.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> Sorry to be argumentative but how does that compare with the power to make
> all the stuff that goes into an ice car.
> I think that it should be at least break even or lean to the electric side
> as having to use less energy.
>
> Not that this really matters to the US electric grid as both of the
electric
> motors and the gas engine would most likely not be made in the US. 
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
> Of Jim L
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
> I am sure that the savings from that would be insignificant when you are
> talking about how much power is required. Making eletric motors and wire
and
> batteries takes electricity too remember.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Also how much electricity is used in the conversion of oil to gasoline
> that
> > would no longer need to be done?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> > Of Tim Humphrey
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:30 PM
> > To: EV
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > > Behalf Of Jim L
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:59 PM
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and
getting
> > > some
> > > disturbing results.
> > > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> > > significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
> > >
> > > If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles
a
> > > year,
> > > 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
> > >
> > > I found a US government website that lists the entire US power
> > > production
> > > capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
> > >
> > > 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
> > >
> > > I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US
> > > for
> > > 2001 at 142 MILLION.
> > >
> > > If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than
335
> > > times the electricity that we currently do.
> > >
> > > Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the
power
> > > requirements that we will have to solve.
> > >
> > > BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or
> > > natural
> > > gas production.
> > >
> > > I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY
small
> > > cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars
and
> > > keep
> > > it to ourselves!
> > >
> > > I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> >
> > So, I could power my car for the entire year on about the same amount of
> > electricity that my home uses in a month.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stay Charged!
> > Hump
> > I-5, Blossvale NY
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jim L wrote:
> > No, I want you to put in your two cents worth. as well as everyone else.
> -----------------OKAY, I'll bite!
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Living up north(Van.BC) we can only dream of enough sun to produce that kind
of power. 10 months of the year here it is pretty cloudy. If we could get
that kind of power out of solar cells here I wouldn't hesitate for a minute
in putting them on my house. The government here thinks my electricity bill
is a tax revenue source to be hit whenever they need more money!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JS" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?




> > Jim L wrote:
> > > No, I want you to put in your two cents worth. as well as everyone else.
> > -----------------OKAY, I'll bite!
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are confusing energy with power. Power is what it takes to 
generate the torque that turns the wheels. Energy is what is used 
when that power is applied for any length of time.

If you have a load that drops one volt when one amp is passed through 
it, you have dissipated one watt. A watt is a unit of power. If you 
apply that one watt for an hour, you have used one watt*hour (whr) of 
energy. If you apply that one watt for 24 hours, you have used 24 whr.

The web page:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html
shows that in 2005, 4,055 Billion KWh of electric energy was 
generated in the United States. You list power production capacity 
as 1,067,010 Megawatts. I didn't look real hard, but couldn't find 
this number, but I'm going to use it anyway. This is the power 
production capacity. To figure the maximum annual energy generation 
capacity, you must multiply this number by 24 (the number hours in a 
day) and then again by 365 (the number of days in a year). This 
gives 9,347,007,600 Megawatt*hours (MWh) as the maximum annual 
generation capaity. Dividing by the 4,055 Billion KWh of electric 
energy that was actually generated, you see that there is the 
potential of generating 2.3 times as much electric energy than we 
actually use. The electric power plants are spending a little more 
than half their time sitting idle (this is mostly at night while most 
people are sleeping, but could be charging their electric cars).

Now consider a vehicle that averages 300Wh per mile. In the US, I 
think the average miles driven per vehicle is 15,000 miles per year. 
Multiplying these two numbers, you get 4.5 MWh. If all the idle time 
of US electricity generation was used to charge electric vehicles, it 
would be able to charge 903 million cars per year, far more that the 
142 million ICE cars that are on the road today without building a 
single new power plant.

By using the excess generating capacity to charge electric cars, the 
power utilities can keep their plants operating at peak efficiency 
points constantly. The ability to plug all these cars into the power 
grid and provide peak power on hot sunny days when all the air 
conditioners are running, can reduce the need to build more 
generating capacity to deal with these peak loads.

Ed


> Jim L wrote:
> 
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and
> > getting some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes I already noticed an error that I had made in my calculations. The
source that I had for the production capacity is at
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat2p2.html



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ed Blackmond" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


> You are confusing energy with power. Power is what it takes to
> generate the torque that turns the wheels. Energy is what is used
> when that power is applied for any length of time.
>
> If you have a load that drops one volt when one amp is passed through
> it, you have dissipated one watt. A watt is a unit of power. If you
> apply that one watt for an hour, you have used one watt*hour (whr) of
> energy. If you apply that one watt for 24 hours, you have used 24 whr.
>
> The web page:
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html
> shows that in 2005, 4,055 Billion KWh of electric energy was
> generated in the United States. You list power production capacity
> as 1,067,010 Megawatts. I didn't look real hard, but couldn't find
> this number, but I'm going to use it anyway. This is the power
> production capacity. To figure the maximum annual energy generation
> capacity, you must multiply this number by 24 (the number hours in a
> day) and then again by 365 (the number of days in a year). This
> gives 9,347,007,600 Megawatt*hours (MWh) as the maximum annual
> generation capaity. Dividing by the 4,055 Billion KWh of electric
> energy that was actually generated, you see that there is the
> potential of generating 2.3 times as much electric energy than we
> actually use. The electric power plants are spending a little more
> than half their time sitting idle (this is mostly at night while most
> people are sleeping, but could be charging their electric cars).
>
> Now consider a vehicle that averages 300Wh per mile. In the US, I
> think the average miles driven per vehicle is 15,000 miles per year.
> Multiplying these two numbers, you get 4.5 MWh. If all the idle time
> of US electricity generation was used to charge electric vehicles, it
> would be able to charge 903 million cars per year, far more that the
> 142 million ICE cars that are on the road today without building a
> single new power plant.
>
> By using the excess generating capacity to charge electric cars, the
> power utilities can keep their plants operating at peak efficiency
> points constantly. The ability to plug all these cars into the power
> grid and provide peak power on hot sunny days when all the air
> conditioners are running, can reduce the need to build more
> generating capacity to deal with these peak loads.
>
> Ed
>


> Jim L wrote:
> >
> > > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and
> > > getting some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK SO THAT IS WHAT WE CAN GENERATE AT ANY GIVEN INSTANCE -- SO TO MAKE IT KWH'S IN YOUR EQUATION IT IS 1.067,010KWH x24 (HOURS IN A DAY ) x 365 DAYS THEN COMPARE TO THE EV USAGE . 
ALSO REMEMBER THE EVS WILL MOSTLY BE CHARGING DARNING LOW DEMAND TIMES ,, REALLY YOUR EQUATION COMPARISON WAS /IS FLAWED 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim L<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting some
disturbing results.
Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
significant number of cars were converted to electricity?

If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
year,
300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year

I found a US government website that lists the entire US power production
capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.

1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.

I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US for
2001 at 142 MILLION.

If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
times the electricity that we currently do.

Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
requirements that we will have to solve.

BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or natural
gas production.

I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and keep
it to ourselves!

I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.

Jim




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an optimum
> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles that
> > are
> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
> >
> > Jim
>
> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
grade
> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll out,
it
> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which runs
> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
the
> accessories.
>
> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I always
> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
the
> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
and
> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>
> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of snow,
> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external lights
> and over 50 instrument lights.
>
> Roland
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> >
> >
> > > Hello Jim,
> > >
> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
is
> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
motor
> > may
> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
are
> > > equal then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
> > >
> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
> > >
> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
> > >
> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
> > >
> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
> > >
> > >
> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph then
a
> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
> > >
> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
vehicle
> > > > based on its mpg performance?
> > > >
> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
amount
> > > > of
> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
> > > >
> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would
> > cover
> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
aerodynamic
> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
> > > >
> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
> > > >
> > > > Any Ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
>

_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Oct 2007 at 12:43, Jim L wrote:
> 
> > Travelling at 60 miles per
> > hour(ignoring air friction) it still consumes 300 watts per mile but crams
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jim L writes:
> 
> Using Ralphs power consumption numbers of .22 kw/h per mile multiplied by

Oops... My error. My car uses about 280wh per mile, so that makes the
total daily use closer to 9.8kwh.

Ralph

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Part of the problem is using conversions for your calculation.

Designed for electric cars get more like 150-250 wh/mile

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I drove about 8000 miles last year electric, but I made more power via
the solar panels on my roof than I used.

My car gets a dismal ~430wh/mile

According to a department of energy report a few years back, the largest
single user of electricity in California are the refineries with the
average of 12kwh used per gallon of gas produced. We will use this power
to help out.

One of our problems is that distribution wastes 1/2 and another waste is
what occurs at night when plants are idled.

A more distributed system of small clean plants like the solar covered
carport parking lot at the university in my town and more people using
solar on their homes. A good spreading out of usage can be had by some
people charge at night and others charge at work from all the solar on
people's roofs tied to the grid. The shorter distance this power is
distributed will reduce loss.

People have to stop requiring all or nothing scenarios. Use the right
tool for the job.

--Hybrids for long distance personal travel. Gas will be less expensive
and more available if demand is reduced by 30% because electric is used
where it is warranted.
--Diesel for heavy equipment and semi, vehicles transporting large heavy
loads.
--Natural gas for urban delivery and urban mass transit
--light rail(electric) for midrange suburb to business district commuter
traffic.

what we need is an immediate reduction by 30% of fossil fuel usage for
any of the large numbers of people who travel less than 40 miles a day,
you know the bullshit miles commuting or grocery store runs. This would
end dependence on foreign oil and provide a positive,incremental
benefit(the users on this list). Instead of continually waiting for some
panacea and doing nothing until we find it(the auto makers - politicians)




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Sorry to be argumentative but how does that compare with the power to make
> all the stuff that goes into an ice car.
> I think that it should be at least break even or lean to the electric side
> as having to use less energy. 
> 
That is a completely separate argument.
The priority should be
--reuse
--recycle
--new

The auto companies don't want that, they want you to buy a new car every
5 years.

What if we could get rid of the yearly model and replace it with
standardized modular versioning system; more like my computer. Any owner
can upgrade any part of their machine. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree that not everything will work on electricity but the big problem
that I see at least in my area is the cost of maintaining two vehicles. Our
government run insurance company will not give a break on the licensing and
insurance for a second more efficient local commuter vehicle.
I drive a two seater dodge rampage(still gas) that I want to eventually
convert to electricity. This little truck does just about everything that I
need it to do as is. About 30mpg. Cost of licensing and insurance with no
additional coverage other than the minimum cost $1000 per year.

When I convert it I will have to buy another vehicle for when I need to go
out of town or find that I simply have to go across town again after getting
home from work.

It is hard for most people to justify the cost of having a second car that
just sits there while you are driving the other one.

If the morons that run the government would only allow a single transferable
plate that you could put on the vehicle that you are driving, buying or
building a more fuel efficient second car would make much more sense. And
more people would do it.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?


>
>
> I drove about 8000 miles last year electric, but I made more power via
> the solar panels on my roof than I used.
>
> My car gets a dismal ~430wh/mile
>
> According to a department of energy report a few years back, the largest
> single user of electricity in California are the refineries with the
> average of 12kwh used per gallon of gas produced. We will use this power
> to help out.
>
> One of our problems is that distribution wastes 1/2 and another waste is
> what occurs at night when plants are idled.
>
> A more distributed system of small clean plants like the solar covered
> carport parking lot at the university in my town and more people using
> solar on their homes. A good spreading out of usage can be had by some
> people charge at night and others charge at work from all the solar on
> people's roofs tied to the grid. The shorter distance this power is
> distributed will reduce loss.
>
> People have to stop requiring all or nothing scenarios. Use the right
> tool for the job.
>
> --Hybrids for long distance personal travel. Gas will be less expensive
> and more available if demand is reduced by 30% because electric is used
> where it is warranted.
> --Diesel for heavy equipment and semi, vehicles transporting large heavy
> loads.
> --Natural gas for urban delivery and urban mass transit
> --light rail(electric) for midrange suburb to business district commuter
> traffic.
>
> what we need is an immediate reduction by 30% of fossil fuel usage for
> any of the large numbers of people who travel less than 40 miles a day,
> you know the bullshit miles commuting or grocery store runs. This would
> end dependence on foreign oil and provide a positive,incremental
> benefit(the users on this list). Instead of continually waiting for some
> panacea and doing nothing until we find it(the auto makers - politicians)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Comments below



> Jim L wrote:
> > I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting some
> > disturbing results.
> > Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

MPG is based on the engine's efficiency as well as the power needed, so
there is no direct relationship between power needed to maintain highway
speed and MPG (at least not as anything other than a very loose
approximation).

However, you can use a general rule of thumb.

Small reasonably aerodynamic vehicles require 10-15kw to maintain 55 mph. 
Very aerodynamic vehicles will probably use less, larger vehicles will
probably use more.

If you know what kind of vehicle you are interested in, you can check and
see what a similar conversion gets.


> Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a vehicle
> based on its mpg performance?
>
> For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the amount of
> kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
>
> If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that would cover
> most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small aerodynamic
> vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
>
> I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's doubtfull that a large number of vehicles will ever be converted.

A more likely scenario is large numbers of purpose built EVs. These could
easy use 1/2 to 1/3 the energy while still being approx the same size.

Perhaps when energy gets expensive US consumers will move to smaller
vehicles. A single person EV could easily get 50 watts (or less) per
mile.

Finally, I believe your energy use number is WAY off.
The 2004 US electricity production was almost 4 trillion KWH = 4 billion
MWH, or about 4,000 times the number you posted.

As I recall the instantaneous electricity production capacity in the US is
over 900 GW. Which, unless I'm screwing up the math, means a theoretical
annual production of about 8 million GWH, or about twice the number I
posted above.

> I have just been running some numbers through my calculator and getting
> some
> disturbing results.
> Has anybody tried to calculate how much power would be required if a
> significant number of cars were converted to electricity?
>
> If the average car uses 300 watts per mile and it is driven 8000 miles a
> year,
> 300 x 8000 = 2,400,000 watts or 2.4 megawatts/year
>
> I found a US government website that lists the entire US power production
> capacity for 2005 as being 1,067,010 Megawatts.
>
> 1,067,010 / 2.4 = 423,011 vehicles.
>
> I then found a refernce to the number of registered vehicles in the US for
> 2001 at 142 MILLION.
>
> If/when the oil supplies dry up, we would have to generate more than 335
> times the electricity that we currently do.
>
> Is there anything wrong with my calculations or is this really the power
> requirements that we will have to solve.
>
> BTW out of the current power produced, over 70% comes from coal or natural
> gas production.
>
> I am beginning to think that we have to start thinking about VERY small
> cars(think ATV with a body) or not tell anybody about electric cars and
> keep
> it to ourselves!
>
> I would really like to hear others thoughts on this.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>>
>>
>> > Would that 300 watts per mile be a representitive number? Or an
>> optimum
>> > number. I mean, would the average power consumption of the vehicles
>> that
>> > are
>> > built and talked about on this list consume about 300 watts per mile?
>> >
>> > Jim
>>
>> For me, it is about 300 watts average. If I attack a 2 mile 7 percent
> grade
>> hill at 60 mph with my 7000 lb EV, then it could be over 1000 watts per
>> mile. Coming down that hill and and doing about another 2 mile roll
>> out,
> it
>> then becomes 0 watts per mile where the motor is still rotating which
>> runs
>> the rotating inverter-alternator which is still generating power for all
> the
>> accessories.
>>
>> Most of my driving is at 10 to 25 mph on non level streets which I
>> always
>> starting a down hill run first and then roller coast up for the rest of
> the
>> distance and may have only two stops a day. One stop at the destination
> and
>> one stop at home. No stop signs, no red lights and may drive for days
>> without seeing any other cars on the road.
>>
>> In the winter, I will use twice the energy pushing through a foot of
>> snow,
>> running three heating systems, seven fans, three pumps 14 external
>> lights
>> and over 50 instrument lights.
>>
>> Roland
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>> >
>> >
>> > > Hello Jim,
>> > >
>> > > You can use the Btu's per gallon method. The average gasoline btu's
> is
>> > > about 115,000 btu's per gallon. One kilowatt is 3412 btu's.
>> > > Engines vary in efficiency all the way down to 25% and a electric
> motor
>> > may
>> > > be as low as 80%. So if all the mechanical efficiency of both rigs
> are
>> > > equal then:
>> > >
>> > > 115,000 x 0.25 = 28,750 btus for the engine
>> > >
>> > > 28,750 / 3412 = 8.426 kilowatts.
>> > >
>> > > 8.326 kw x 0.80 = 6.66 kw for a electric motor
>> > >
>> > > 6.66 kw / 746 = 8.9 hp
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If you take everything at 100% efficiency then:
>> > >
>> > > 115,000 btu's / 3412 = 33.7 kw
>> > >
>> > > 33.7 kw / 746 = 45 hp
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Lets say that you vehicle is getting 300 watts per mile at 60 mph
>> then
> a
>> > > engine at 100% efficiency would have to get:
>> > >
>> > > 33.7 kw / 300 = 112 mpg
>> > >
>> > > Roland
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Jim L" <[email protected]>
>> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:49 AM
>> > > Subject: [EVDL] kw and mpg conversion?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Is there a formula for figuring out an approx energy use for a
> vehicle
>> > > > based on its mpg performance?
>> > > >
>> > > > For example, if a car got 25 mpg on average, what would be the
> amount
>> > > > of
>> > > > kw needed to maintain highway speeds?
>> > > >
>> > > > If there is no easy formula, is there a range of kw usage that
>> would
>> > cover
>> > > > most typically used vehicles? i.e. 'X' kwatts for a small
> aerodynamic
>> > > > vehicle to 'Y' kwatts for say a standard 1/2 ton pickup truck?
>> > > >
>> > > > I realize that this would probably only be estimates.
>> > > >
>> > > > Any Ideas?
>> > > >
>> > > > Jim
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > For subscription options, see
>> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > For subscription options, see
>> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------

