# [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe some of you guys could answer with your opinions.

Do you think in 10 years all passenger cars will be EVs or converted to 
electric power?

Regards,
Eric

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would hope that all would be but sincerely doubt that all will be EVs by
then. Technology could advance and bury the ICE but at the moment, the
range issue hurts EVs and the amount of energy held in gasoline is tough to
beat today. Cost is also a factor. Since when the Oil price when up during
2006 to 2008 commodity pricing of other materials rose as well. The markets
pushed up the price of lead during that period of time. Can the same thing
happen again....definitely. I'm hoping for the best however....


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com 
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS






-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Eric
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

Maybe some of you guys could answer with your opinions.

Do you think in 10 years all passenger cars will be EVs or converted to 
electric power?

Regards,
Eric

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let the pessimist take the first stab 

Its likely that this could be the case, the period between 2013 and 2015
will see people really start to realize (hopefully)
that easy oil really is on the way out.
How late people jump on EVs will be partly due to this, and partly due to
how quickly OEMs and conversion company's can crank them out.

Then there is the factor of how loud can awareness groups continue to
scream. The Post Carbon Institute is doing a good job in addition to many
other think tanks and youtube channels a like but the message really isn't
reaching the man in the street, his attention is being held by a multitude
of other issues.

I think we will see perhaps a 40-50% increase in the number of EVs we see,
but its going to be accompanied by a 65-75% increase in the number of small
ICE cars we see also, and users of public transportation.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

By pessimist I meant me ... I thought I'd be first  sorry Doug.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No.

Change is slow and it's difficult to change the status quo.

It'd be great if most new vehicles were EV in ten years. That should be
obtainable. But do you think that everyone with new vehicles now will have
junked them in 10 years? I know of many people driving 1950's cars! It would
take a huge gasoline shortage to get all of those people to change to EV. I
don't see that happening. The US is full of oil and the only reason we
haven't tapped it more fully is that it's expensive and we don't feel like
it. The going wisdom is to drain other people's oil first so that you end up
with the old source of it once everyone else dries up. Bear in mind that the
US gets more oil from the US than it does from any other single country. I
believe it's like 35% of our oil that comes from the US. More than any other
source. So I think that we'll see gasoline being available for quite some
time. This is especially true as more and more people switch to EVs. The
rest of the still ICE vehicles will then have more gasoline to go around.
This will likely slowly continue until it's no longer profitable to offer
gasoline. My prediction is that it'll take more than 50 years to get rid of
gasoline powered cars.



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Maybe some of you guys could answer with your opinions.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think I've been the most pessimistic so far but I still think I'll be
closer to the mark than anyone. Change is tough, especially in the US. We
still use the English standard system! We won't switch to metric and that's
crazy.



> Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > By pessimist I meant me ... I thought I'd be first  sorry Doug.
> > -------------- next part --------------
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One of the best things the US Government could do would be to mandate
that all NEW vehicles be able to at least drive a few (5? 10?) miles on
plug-in power (Grid Enabled Vehicles) shutting the ICE down when it's
not moving.

With those relatively smaller packs it also might be able to be done on
already existing (or more easily/cheaply installed) 120/15A which would
allow for frequent opportunity charging at every stop in town (eeking
out another 5-10 miles before switching back to gas). Opportunity
charging combined with the knowledge of how many miles American's DON'T
drive daily would cut gasoline usage VERY significantly. 

But you've still got a very large installed ICE base, which leads to
this little bit of insight: as an EV owner and proponent, the closing
argument of Gary Lauder's Ted talk
(http://www.ted.com/talks/gary_lauder_s_new_traffic_sign_take_turns.html
) hit home very hard with me: You will make more of impact in
Environment (CO2/Smog) and National Security (foreign oil imports) by
working to change the infrastructure than you will by changing your
personal vehicle. You change to a bicycle, EV or biofuel and you solve
YOUR MPGe problem. However if instead (or in conjunction) you work for
the elimination of stop signs for yield signs and stop lights for modern
designed roundabouts and you increases EVERYONES MPGe.

I'm still a big fan and promoter of electric vehicles, but once you
realize the impact that an all-way stop or a stoplight has on the MPG of
an ICE, you'll start to want to Cool-Hand-Luke 'em as I do... if you
ever hear of a guy thrown in the hole for cutting down stopsigns and
stoplights in the mid-west, it's a good bet it's me...

Oh yes, and those things they have out in Boston and that big circle in
London *aren't* modern, designed roundabouts. Those are rotaries or
traffic circles, and they're scary.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe in some countries where the governments force this to be the 
case, but certainly not the US.



> Eric wrote:
> 
> > Maybe some of you guys could answer with your opinions.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not a chance. The all-gas hybrids have been out for 13 years and they're 
still a tiny minority of the vehicles on the road. EV is a much more 
disruptive technology. EVs will remain specialty vehicles for decades yet.

There's also the distinct possibility that some unforeseen (by us) event 
will drive liquid fuel prices radically lower, at least temporarily (5-15 
years). This could easily force a precipitous decline in consumer interest 
in EVs, similar to the one we saw in the late 1980s.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 10:23 PM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

> Not a chance.

I agree. If for no other reason than it is like asking in 1900 "No horses in 
10 years?" even transportation by horse is still around.

> EVs will remain specialty vehicles for decades yet.

I think that depends on several very specific definition. I believe electric 
driven vehicles will become increasingly common, and within 20 years it will 
start becoming more difficult to find a non-specialty vehicle that isn't 
electric-driven. As for strictly BEVs I do agree, those will remain mostly 
specialty vehicles.

> There's also the distinct possibility that some unforeseen (by us) event
> will drive liquid fuel prices radically lower

Here's where I show my hand as a capitalist. I believe it is entirely 
foreseeable. Already we have technologies like biogas, and Green Power 
claims to be able to produce Naphtha (gasoline precursor) from waste matter, 
algal biodiesel, etc, these will necessarily cap the price of gaoline. As 
gas prices rise we will of course see increased interest in non-petroleum 
fuels, this will reduce demand for petroleum, price will necessarily have to 
drop. So that is a fairly easy prediction to make, and it breaks down 
completely once the product becomes a specialty product and price will rise 
again.

BEVs may never be the actual dominant technology, but electric-driven 
vehicles will have an increasing position in the market, eventually reaching 
a dominant position. I just don't think 10 years is a long enough time for 
much of this to happen.

That is just in terms of sales. It is fairly certain that not all gasoline 
vehicles will be converted, I'm certain there would be plenty of tensions 
around anyone desiring to convert something like the Bugatti 57S Atlantic, 
so there will always be at least some gasoline vehicles around, just like 
there will always be horses.
Joe 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd have to agree. Modern diesel vehicles have been available for about 10
years now and despite being only a very minor change (filling from a
different nozzle at the exact same gas station as the gasolines ICE's), they
have failed to gain much market share except in the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup
truck market, and most manufactures don't even find it necessary to offer a
diesel vehicle in the US... so if a superior technology that is not very
disruptive has that much trouble taking over, something like a BEV will take
much longer... unless the market changes radically.

Z



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Not a chance. The all-gas hybrids have been out for 13 years and they're
> > still a tiny minority of the vehicles on the road. EV is a much more
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 28 Sep 2010 at 15:04, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > In Europe, diesel passenger cars have well over 50% market share now.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I think about the typical neighborhood in a Dutch city
then it is a block of about 4-6 houses "under one roof" and
only the end houses are likely to have a carport or garage,
all the houses in between have curbside parking on the street
with a (mandatory) sidewalk between their yard and the curb...
Since the houses are typically just wide enough to allow a single
car to park in front of each house, there is usually some additional
parking either adjacent (perpedicular) to the street or between
some of the blocks, which means the car is up to 100 meter from
your house.
Now *that* is actually a good place to put some EV charging in, as
frequently one of the parking spots may already be reserved for
disabled parking, so why not have one EV parking spot?
But to plug your car in without such facility is difficult if
you are not living in the corner house, because you must either
string a cord out an upstairs window to a light post near the curb
to clear the sidewalk and from there drop down to your vehicle, or
sneak it out the back door and yard via the common path behind the
houses to the parking between the blocks.
In most cases you are running a cord over common/city property
and this could lead to complaints, hopefully not to accidents
(pedestrians tripping over cords).
It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
sidewalk is owned and maintained by the city - I guess your best bet
would be to install a weatherproof outlet on the lightposts, but I
am not very hopeful...
Color me sceptical.
BTW, here in India things are "different" as even medium voltage
transformers, distribution cables and fuses and all kinds of
power electrical stuff is sitting on sidewalks within touching 
reach, sometimes with wires dangling out and in most cases with
the doors missing or hanging open... Kids just learn *not* to
mess with that stuff and occasionally a report in the newspaper
about someone electrocuted due to an accident while making a 
connection for stealing electricity....
There is nobody frowning when a party is going on with some
wires strung across the floor, the bare ends pushed into a
socket on one side of the room and the two single-isolated
conductors taped together every meter, running to some equipment
at the other end of the room where it is wound around the pins of
the plug of a power strip and taped to stay and insulate, all the 
while party guests manoevring over and around the wires while
walking around through the room.
Or my favorite: having chairs with steel rods folded in a square
as legs on each side, so a 1/4 inch dia rod goes from front to
back across the floor on each side of the chair, then place
these chairs on top of the single-insulated conductors with 230V
while it rains and the puddles form around the chairs....
(and no, there is no GFCI in the breaker box...)

But it sure is much easier to charge your EV here, *if* you are
running one. No time or money at the moment, but I am still
planning to take an "autorickshaw" (3-wheeled mini-taxi) and
convert it one day.
Even a souped-up Golfcart setup will do well, as the default
1-cylinder engine delivers only some 4hp in these vehicles.
They are unsafe at speeds above 40-50 km/h anyway since they
have a single front wheel. Lots of batteries between the rear
wheels will be an advantage!

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?



> On 28 Sep 2010 at 15:04, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > In Europe, diesel passenger cars have well over 50% market share now.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Zeke,

Not sure where "here" is, but in The Netherlands
the responsibility to keep the sidewalk clean 
also lies with the home owner adjacent to each
section of sidewalk.
Not sure if that obligation would change anything
wrt the curbside plug.

If the cord comes from your window then of course
it is metered in your home, but for the curbside
plug (or the lightpost plug) it is more likely
that the city would be metering, so then you run
into issues as "who is going to pay for the
free electricity"... 

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Cor van de Water


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > "who is going to pay for the
> > free electricity"...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Making the vehicle funstainabiliy-sized you can just take the battery
pack out of the vehicle, sling it over your shoulder(s) like a briefcase
and carry it up 3 or 4 flights of stairs and plug it into any grounded
household outlet. Becomes even more possible with polymer battery
packs. Is that a briefcase or is it a "gas tank".

Size matters. Don't believe it if someone tells you otherwise (they're
just being polite). Smaller is better: REDUCE reuse recycle.

Oh, and government (in the US) really isn't worried about who will pay
for the free electricity -- get a business to sponsor putting up a solar
panel or two and bob's your uncle. What the government is REALLY
worried about is how to figure out fuel TAXES, specifically, ROAD TAXES
on electricity. They're experiencing the effects of their coffers
depleting when we started driving less as fuel costs in the US
skyrocketed (apologies to the non-US folks) and people switched to more
efficient vehicles. The road tax system is dependant on guzzling gas,
just as you get price breaks when you use MORE electricity.

And again, if your vehicle is funstainably-sized (lightweight), you have
a built-in argument against road taxes (at least for road repair): My
vehicle doesn't do any damage to the roads when compared to the standard
1.5-2 ton ICE car, let alone the bus/semi trucks... it's closer to a
bicycle than a car. Do you charge bicycles road taxes?

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

Hi Zeke,

Not sure where "here" is, but in The Netherlands
the responsibility to keep the sidewalk clean 
also lies with the home owner adjacent to each
section of sidewalk.
Not sure if that obligation would change anything
wrt the curbside plug.

If the cord comes from your window then of course
it is metered in your home, but for the curbside
plug (or the lightpost plug) it is more likely
that the city would be metering, so then you run
into issues as "who is going to pay for the
free electricity"... 

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Cor van de Water


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't forget anybody at most public buildings can plug into any outlet
to charge their laptop, cellphone... in total they use far more
electricity than the scant EV's in existence, and WHEN it actually makes
a dent, then it will be a glorious problem to have because that will
mean it will actually make sense to install $$$ charging stations that
can bill for minute amounts of electricity...

...of course you can bet there'll be taxes and administrative fees for
that electricity from those 'special' charging stations ;-)

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > "who is going to pay for the
> > free electricity"...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > If the cord comes from your window then of course it is
> > metered in your home, but for the curbside plug (or the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In USA, the majority funding for roads come from propery taxes, not
vehicle or fuel taxes.
That is another one of the misconceptions against bicyclists, some
drivers will tell to
get off "their" road, because the bicyclists are not paying
(vehicle/fuel tax) for the roads.

The dry comback from knowledged cyclists is that they actually *over*pay
for the roadways
because their vehicles do virtually no damage while their *property* tax
is not reduced 
for their reduced contribution to road maintenance.
In addition, most cyclists do own a vehicle, but choose to not drive it
always.
So, the underpayment of road maintenance by actual drivers is
compensated by the
overpayment from pedestrians and cyclists who use roads without tearing
them up.

I could make an effort to return to an EV topic here, so let me just add
that
I agree that smaller is better, lighter is better and the advantages of
being
able to carry your entire battery pack into the house is a good example
of
the benefit, besides the reduced use of resources compared to for
example
a pickup truck conversion.

How to deal with fuel taxes for EVs is a point that I hope will stay
under the radar for a while.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Childress, Matthew
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

Making the vehicle funstainabiliy-sized you can just take the battery
pack out of the vehicle, sling it over your shoulder(s) like a briefcase
and carry it up 3 or 4 flights of stairs and plug it into any grounded
household outlet. Becomes even more possible with polymer battery
packs. Is that a briefcase or is it a "gas tank".

Size matters. Don't believe it if someone tells you otherwise (they're
just being polite). Smaller is better: REDUCE reuse recycle.

Oh, and government (in the US) really isn't worried about who will pay
for the free electricity -- get a business to sponsor putting up a solar
panel or two and bob's your uncle. What the government is REALLY
worried about is how to figure out fuel TAXES, specifically, ROAD TAXES
on electricity. They're experiencing the effects of their coffers
depleting when we started driving less as fuel costs in the US
skyrocketed (apologies to the non-US folks) and people switched to more
efficient vehicles. The road tax system is dependant on guzzling gas,
just as you get price breaks when you use MORE electricity.

And again, if your vehicle is funstainably-sized (lightweight), you have
a built-in argument against road taxes (at least for road repair): My
vehicle doesn't do any damage to the roads when compared to the standard
1.5-2 ton ICE car, let alone the bus/semi trucks... it's closer to a
bicycle than a car. Do you charge bicycles road taxes?

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

Hi Zeke,

Not sure where "here" is, but in The Netherlands the responsibility to
keep the sidewalk clean also lies with the home owner adjacent to each
section of sidewalk.
Not sure if that obligation would change anything wrt the curbside plug.

If the cord comes from your window then of course it is metered in your
home, but for the curbside plug (or the lightpost plug) it is more
likely that the city would be metering, so then you run into issues as
"who is going to pay for the free electricity"... 

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Cor van de Water


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Making the vehicle funstainabiliy-sized you can just take the
> > battery pack out of the vehicle, sling it over your
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not in Oregon, it doesn't!!! The road maintanence is all from gas taxes and 
vehicle licensing fees, which bicyclists do not pay!

I don't know about other states - but the Federal government doesn't get any 
property taxes, so they couldn't possibly fund road improvements or repairs 
by that method.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?


> In USA, the majority funding for roads come from propery taxes, not
> vehicle or fuel taxes.
> That is another one of the misconceptions against bicyclists, some
> drivers will tell to
> get off "their" road, because the bicyclists are not paying
> (vehicle/fuel tax) for the roads.
>
> The dry comback from knowledged cyclists is that they actually *over*pay
> for the roadways
> because their vehicles do virtually no damage while their *property* tax
> is not reduced
> for their reduced contribution to road maintenance.
> In addition, most cyclists do own a vehicle, but choose to not drive it
> always.
> So, the underpayment of road maintenance by actual drivers is
> compensated by the
> overpayment from pedestrians and cyclists who use roads without tearing
> them up.
>
> I could make an effort to return to an EV topic here, so let me just add
> that
> I agree that smaller is better, lighter is better and the advantages of
> being
> able to carry your entire battery pack into the house is a good example
> of
> the benefit, besides the reduced use of resources compared to for
> example
> a pickup truck conversion.
>
> How to deal with fuel taxes for EVs is a point that I hope will stay
> under the radar for a while.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Childress, Matthew
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:57 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?
>
> Making the vehicle funstainabiliy-sized you can just take the battery
> pack out of the vehicle, sling it over your shoulder(s) like a briefcase
> and carry it up 3 or 4 flights of stairs and plug it into any grounded
> household outlet. Becomes even more possible with polymer battery
> packs. Is that a briefcase or is it a "gas tank".
>
> Size matters. Don't believe it if someone tells you otherwise (they're
> just being polite). Smaller is better: REDUCE reuse recycle.
>
> Oh, and government (in the US) really isn't worried about who will pay
> for the free electricity -- get a business to sponsor putting up a solar
> panel or two and bob's your uncle. What the government is REALLY
> worried about is how to figure out fuel TAXES, specifically, ROAD TAXES
> on electricity. They're experiencing the effects of their coffers
> depleting when we started driving less as fuel costs in the US
> skyrocketed (apologies to the non-US folks) and people switched to more
> efficient vehicles. The road tax system is dependant on guzzling gas,
> just as you get price breaks when you use MORE electricity.
>
> And again, if your vehicle is funstainably-sized (lightweight), you have
> a built-in argument against road taxes (at least for road repair): My
> vehicle doesn't do any damage to the roads when compared to the standard
> 1.5-2 ton ICE car, let alone the bus/semi trucks... it's closer to a
> bicycle than a car. Do you charge bicycles road taxes?
>
> [email protected]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:05 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?
>
> Hi Zeke,
>
> Not sure where "here" is, but in The Netherlands the responsibility to
> keep the sidewalk clean also lies with the home owner adjacent to each
> section of sidewalk.
> Not sure if that obligation would change anything wrt the curbside plug.
>
> If the cord comes from your window then of course it is metered in your
> home, but for the curbside plug (or the lightpost plug) it is more
> likely that the city would be metering, so then you run into issues as
> "who is going to pay for the free electricity"...
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group Proxim Wireless Corporation
> http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?
>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Cor van de Water


> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> It won't be easy to place an outlet near the curb, as the mandatory
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Different roads have different funding, but gas taxes don't come close to fully funding road maintenance, never mind real repairs or improvements. 

Unless vehicle license fees in Oregon have changed dramatically since the late 90's there is some other source of funding. (when I was at WSU people would register vehicles in Oregon because it was cheaper, and I don't recall gas being cheaper in WA ( with the exception of Walla Walla Wa, which always had the cheapest gas around.)

The easy solution is to have a gas tax and make up the substantial difference from federal, state and local funding.

Different places have tried different schemes (private highways with time of use rates, regular toll roads, ideas to somehow tax ton-miles.)

It's a problem because much of or transportation infrastructure is falling into disrepair. The Minnesota bridge collapse as a glaring example.

John





> "joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Not in Oregon, it doesn't!!! The road maintanence is all from gas taxes and
> > vehicle licensing fees, which bicyclists do not pay!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Eventually the politicians are going to figure it out, Hopefully they jack
up gas fuel tax to about $5 per gallon and push the driving population into
Electrics, then in 2035 the license tag fee will jump from $40 to $200 and
sales tax may be increased 2% for highway improvement.
We passed a 1% increase in sales tax in my county, Polk, FL. back in
2001 (and the tourists contribute to it also...) We have greatly improved
roads and parks with those funds in the past nine years. There are no HOLES
in our streets. All arteries are widened, and resurfaced, The parks are
better maintained clean, neat, beautiful foliage and paved parking and
drives, Safe running, walking, and bicycling paths too. Athletic fields, and
Play grounds.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
==================================================================


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/29/2010 10:04 PM, John wrote:
> > > Different roads have different funding, but gas taxes don't come
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In my opinion the problem with motor fuel taxes is that they don't come
anywhere near to covering the full cost of taking the oil out of the ground
- let alone maintaining the transportation infrastructure required for
motor vehicles. Ultimately we (and our children's children's children) are
paying the cost through income taxes etc. Bringing oil to the US is
becoming a very expensive process for our government when you calculate the
costs of our world military presence which must be maintained to ensure the
flow of oil. A lot of our oil comes from Canada where they are digging up
'oil sands' to meet the demand. There is a very big environmental impact
for this process. When you think about the things you don't pay for at the
pump it's almost like the gas is free!



> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Eventually the politicians are going to figure it out, Hopefully they jack
> > up gas fuel tax to about $5 per gallon and push the driving population into
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No need to stop the thread, it's merely veering off topic with the "gas 
talk". Steer it back on track. I think the tax issue is valid to talk 
about because it is directly related to how EV infrastructure will be 
paid for.

EVers should pay for the infrastructure themselves perhaps through a 
percentage of the vehicle cost, and at the charging stations with the 
"Pay as you Charge" system. It would produce funding for the 
infrastructure easily enough. Keeping the charging station industry an 
open market means that competition will make prices decrease thereby 
make them affordable for city governments to purchase and install.

Eric

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Sep 2010 at 9:44, Eric wrote:
> 
> > EVers should pay for the infrastructure themselves perhaps through a
> > percentage of the vehicle cost, and at the charging stations with the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Large corporate fleets have GPS tracking in them, so they can register all
the vehicles in one central location, but then send them to wherever in the
country they are needed, and pay the correct taxes to each county or state
they are operated in, and also not pay taxes on fuel when they are in
stationary use as opposed to traveling on roads. I talked to someone from a
utility line service/construction company that had this on all of their
company vehicles. It wouldn't be too hard to combine this real time info
with the vehicle GVWR to figure out taxes, rather than doing it on the fuel
(gas or electric) purchase. Probably a bit intrusive to many people for
their personal vehicles....

Z



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Not sure why it would be a competitive disadvantage? Perhaps you're
> > thinking only in terms of the perceived "increased price" of the EV. But
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Both fail -- the second fails because if I charge at home on my own
green generated electricity, you have no means to tax or even tell how
much electricity I'm using, and no means of coming into my house to
figure it out (need to establish probable-cause). This is exactly what
the 80-year-old guy got in trouble with the Illinois IRS for: using his
own untaxed fuel. If he weren't out promoting it and making his numbers
known, they'd never known about it and therefore no probable cause to
show up on his doorstep.

The road-repair portion of the gas tax needs to go away and be replaced
with something that reflects what causes more repair: a tax based on
the number of miles you drive and vehicle weight. You should still tax
the [email protected]#%@#% out of gas though ;-)

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?



> On 30 Sep 2010 at 9:44, Eric wrote:
> 
> > EVers should pay for the infrastructure themselves perhaps through a
> > percentage of the vehicle cost, and at the charging stations with the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Sep 2010 at 13:08, Eric wrote:
> 
> > Maybe you misunderstand the percentage of price of the EV that would be
> > for infrastructure. 1% of the purchase price of an EV is $200 and might
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>
>
> So, no, I don't think that bundling lost tax revenue from gasoline taxes
> into the upfront price of an EV is anything close to a good idea. No way.
> Sorry.
>

In general, putting anything into an upfront cost instead of a distributed
cost is a good way to make sure no one buys it... just look at cell
phones... they used to cost $1000 up front. now, they are free (or at least
many of them are), but you pay to use them. That phone isn't really free...
but its cost is just rolled into two years of bills. If you could buy a gas
car with monthly payments, but had to pay for the EV up front... many people
won't (can't) buy the EV even if it's cheaper over the long run.

Z
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If $1500 is 1% of the car's value, you aren't going to sell many of them
anyway..... we do have a Tesla dealership in town here, but EV's have to
come down a little less than I've paid for my house to gain wide
acceptace... 

Z



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > so basically 1% is too much?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How the heck did you get $1500 as 1% of the value?  lol

Read the ENTIRE original post...

"...1% of the purchase price of a $20,000 EV is $200 and might suffice..."

Eric


On 9/30/2010 2:57 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> If $1500 is 1% of the car's value, you aren't going to sell many of them
> anyway..... we do have a Tesla dealership in town here, but EV's have to
> come down a little less than I've paid for my house to gain wide
> acceptace... 
>
> Z
>
>


> Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> so basically 1% is too much?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From David: "Here in Ohio we pay $0.184 per gallon for federal tax and
$.026 per gallon
for state tax. Other states pay different rates; PA for example pays $0.35
per gallon. But using Ohio's rates, over 100,000 miles at 30mpg, an ICE
driver would pay $1,479.85 for gasoline taxes. That's a bit more than
$200."

That's why I used $1500, not $200.

Z



> Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > How the heck did you get $1500 as 1% of the value?  lol
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I think most "public" charging stations will be privately funded, such
> > as large malls installing them to attract customers. Another idea that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, right now in Oregon, we pay double to license an EV, so that makes up 
for gas taxes we don't pay, according to the government.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?




> > On 30 Sep 2010 at 13:08, Eric wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe you misunderstand the percentage of price of the EV that would be
> >> for infrastructure. 1% of the purchase price of an EV is $200 and might
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?




> > On 30 Sep 2010 at 13:08, Eric wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe you misunderstand the percentage of price of the EV that would be
> >> for infrastructure. 1% of the purchase price of an EV is $200 and might
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No ICE in 10 Years?


> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Dave Davidson <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think most "public" charging stations will be privately funded, such
> >> as large malls installing them to attract customers. Another idea that
> ...


----------

