# Please give me your opinion on a new DIY hybrid kit



## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Even if we have been told no one came up with a practical DIY hybrid conversion, we're developing a new DIY hybrid kit and would like to get some feedback from you all.

We want to develop a simple, lightweight kit consisting of one motor, 2 to 5 lbs and 6 to 15kW peak, for each rear wheel. Transmission will be via a synchro belt or chain drive. 

In its simplest form, we will not even require an electric vacuum pump or steering, the car gas engine will be kept idling as a giant servo  We will use a driving wheel integrated accelerator, similar to those for the disabled. Therefore price will be the priority for this simplest kit, and the system will work just as a gas saver.

Note that a more complete form of this kit (with electric vaccum pump and electric steering) will also be used to drive purely on electric (city or road capable depending on the selected power of motors) while keeping the gas engine, or to convert a car to pure electric. In this last case, the gearbox, transmission, differential, etc, are no longer necessary. This will liberate further space and weight for the batteries.

How would you like such a system? What are the problems you see? How much would you be willing to pay for the wheel and motor pinions and the motor support?

Thanks

JOT


*SUMMARY OF THE THREAD:*

A hybrid/EV car DIY system using high power, low weight model airplane electric motors (about 2kg or 5 lbs each), one for each rear wheel. Cost analysis and possible reductions.

Motors driving wheels by using a synchro belt or chain drive for each rear wheel, 8 to 1 approx transmission ratio. Integrated freewheel to avoid excessive rpm to the motors. Motor support attached to suspension arm (motors therefore unsuspended weight) or back side of brake discs-drums. A big pinion on the inside of the tim, mounted on a metal saucer with holes for the wheel bolts. Saucer to be installed between the rim and the hub, displacing the wheel only 2-3mm outwards.

*30kW SYSTEM*

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs. 
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

*14kW SYSTEM*

You could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, *BUT *there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...E_Warehouse%29

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around 

* $6,500*

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

* $4,100*

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

* $3,600*

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars. 

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa...-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/...%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be 

*$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for 

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a **pure electric range of **12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).*

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100. 

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

*Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost.







You can still sell the old engine and gearbox for some hundred dollars.
*
*28KW SYSTEM*

Note that two 15kW motors with their controllers are $3,900. And that two 7kW motors with their controllers are $456.

Instead of two 15kW motors (30kW), it makes much more sense mounting *FOUR 7kW motors and controllers (28kW) for a total of $912, instead of $3,900.*

Four motors will be required in a medium car, so there should be space for them in the rear wheels. In case of a compact small car, it could still be possible mounting one motor for each wheel. The front wheels will be more difficult because of the steering, but possible if the motor supports are attached to the back part of the front discs.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative. 


*LINKS FOR THE MOTORS*

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...28eq:_70-40%29
6000W - $89.99 - 1230g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 1570g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Do you have a more detailed description or even better a picture of how these small motors will attach to the wheel? Specifically, how you going to get required gear ratio to step down motor RPMs to wheel RPMs, how the belt/chain going to be protected from dirt/debris, how its going to mount to existing shafts/half-shafts/differential, etc?

Having done 2 conversions I can't even imagine how this system would look like. Would it be limited to FWD cars, RWD cars, or can it do both? I see more challenges in FWD, since steering must be integrated with your additions.

Do you have any links/specs of those small and powerful motors? Somehow I doubt that 5lb motor can do 15kW. You said its peak, but what kind of peak? 1 sec? 10 sec? What is continuous power of these motors? Is torque/RPM graph available?

If this was possible, why doesn't NetGain make 60kW Warp9 at 20lb? Where does additional 100lb come from?

I'm sorry, but none of this sounds doable for DIY market. It would be awesome if you can prove me wrong, but this forum has seen many ideas that look good on paper, but never materialize. And please don't give us another conspiracy theory, where "investors threatened you to stop releasing info until someone pays", or "GM is going to kill you for cornering car market", or "NASA bought all IP rights, so I have to keep silent now". We've seen plenty of those here before 

This forum is all about practical stuff. Speaking of practical, why not actually make a rolling prototype and show some videos of it pushing the car down the road?


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

In addition to the concerns Dimitri raised, I have a few more:

You allude to the idea of a series hybrid, i.e. it runs on electric when it's available, but keeps the gas engine for when it's needed. How do you intend to manage that interchange? 

If you're keeping the stock engine, where are the batteries going? And how are you handling that extra weight? Typically, the loss of the heavy ICE components are what enables the batteries to be carried. If your motors are only 5 lbs this is less of a problem, but for the kinds of motors available right now that will move a car at decent speed, you're talking another 200lbs + batteries right there. Upgrading the entire suspension to hold another several hundred/thousand pounds is probably beyond a DIY job for most people.

Additionally, if you're carrying all this added weight, without removing any weight, you're going to need to upgrade the breaks on most vehicles as well.

I'm sure there are people who would be interested in such a kit (questions about making a hybrid are asked all the time) but the reality is that much of this sort of modification is beyond the typical DIYer.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

There was some company that would put a super alternator on a car, and use it for more power. You could pull like another 10 hp from the battery for quick acceleration, and get very mild regen. It was aimed at hotrodders. One big advantage to a system like this is it leverages the current drivetrain, and multiplies the electric motor torque with the tranny.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

To Dimitri:

Sorry, no pics for now, we intend to produce a prototype kit starting in september.

The motor will be attached to the suspension arm or some other location in the hub/brakes, depending on models (the motor being therefore unsuspended weight). This is possible thanks to its very low weight. We hope this small added weight will not require a modified suspension. Or a lighter wheel could be mounted to partly offset the difference.

The gear ratio will be stepped down thanks to the difference in size for the pinion on the wheel and the pinion on the motor. With a 13'' rim (the smallest wheel we will produce kits for) we can get approx. 8 to 1 ratio with the belt drive, even more with a chain drive. Bigger rims allow for higher transmission ratios. We will integrate a freewheel in the motor pinion, so that when the car is driving faster than the motor could turn there are no problems arising (avoiding too high rpm for the motor).

Protecting from debris is quite easy to do, since all the parts are fixed to the wheel. Motorbike style.

How to mount to existing parts: we will produce a wheel pinion with the section of a saucer. The center of the saucer will get holes matching the wheel bolts, so that the saucer will be assembled between the rim and the brakes. It will move the wheel dragging the wheel bolts. This will only displace the wheel a few mm outwards, we expect 2 or 3mm will be enough.

It should be easier to mount on the rear wheels. The front wheels are more difficult as you say because of the steering. It could be done however if the motors are attached to the back part of the disc or drum brakes.

Links for the motors:

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...80-85-B_170Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_(eq:_70-40)
6000W - 1350g - $89.99*

*http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3429-small-brushless-rc-motors-67-kw-peak
7kW - $150 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 2350g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 2350g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-...onId=&a=article&ProdNr=37200007&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-...onId=&a=article&ProdNr=37300006&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g

NetGain probably should start worrying and producing some equivalent motors.

The main problem we see with these motors is refrigeration. These motors are used for model airplanes and probably model choppers too, where refrigeration is not good. We have seen there are model motors mounting an air cooling fan on the axle. But probably the best option would be liquid cooling. Any suggestions how to do that? Perhaps a cooling fan with its own small motor would do.

No conspiracies. But if I stop posting, go ahead with the project!! That's why I'm giving you all the details here


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

rillip3 said:


> In addition to the concerns Dimitri raised, I have a few more:
> 
> You allude to the idea of a series hybrid, i.e. it runs on electric when it's available, but keeps the gas engine for when it's needed. How do you intend to manage that interchange?
> 
> ...


Rillip3,

The interchange between systems will not be sophisticated. A switch on the dashboard to activate the motors and a flywheel on the motor axle to avoid excesive rpm. Independent accelerators, the electric accelerator being one of those used in the driving wheel of cars for the disabled. We think this way the system can operate safely in a foolproof way.

In the hybrid conversion, a small battery pack will go in the trunk for everyday city driving, with a limited range. As you say added weight can be a problem, so that is why we intend to keep the system as simple and light as possible. But we can also say that this approach is also very good for a pure EV conversion, allowing us to get rid of the gearbox, transmission and differential, etc. This allows for more batteries or less weight. We think the simplest version of the system will be adding approximately the weight of a passenger, so there sould be no real need to modify any mechanic systems of the car.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Rillip3,
> 
> The interchange between systems will not be sophisticated. A switch on the dashboard to activate the motors and a flywheel on the motor axle to avoid excesive rpm. Independent accelerators, the electric accelerator being one of those used in the driving wheel of cars for the disabled. We think this way the system can operate safely in a foolproof way.
> 
> In the hybrid conversion, a small battery pack will go in the trunk for everyday city driving, with a limited range. As you say added weight can be a problem, so that is why we intend to keep the system as simple and light as possible. But we can also say that this approach is also very good for a pure EV conversion, allowing us to get rid of the gearbox, transmission and differential, etc. This allows for more batteries or less weight. We think the simplest version of the system will be adding approximately the weight of a passenger, so there sould be no real need to modify any mechanic systems of the car.


Sorry. I meant "freewheel" where I wrote "flywheel".


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> NetGain probably should start worrying and producing some equivalent motors.


I think its wrong to assume you can use oversized toy motors to power the car, while dismissing reasons why well established full size motor manufacturer is producing 100-200 lb motors. I'm not a motor expert, but I believe NetGain engineers must have reasons for their power/weight ratio, and cooling might be one of the big ones.

Like you said, I suspect cooling these little motors might be significant challenge, adding cost/complexity to the system.

Also, these require BLDC motor controllers. Are you also planning to use RC market controllers, one for each wheel motor? Are controllers with suitable continuous power levels to drive a car available? 

Hopefully motor experts will comment on feasibility of these motors in a full size vehicle.

I don't think 2 7kW peak motors will move a car in EV mode. 14kW is not even close to acceleration power required for 2000-3000lb car. My car takes 50-60kW to accelerate, and 15-20 kW to cruise, depending on speed and rate of acceleration. Obviously you can't expect to run motors at their peak power during cruising, you'll burn them out.

So, that means more motors, which adds cost/complexity. At some point when all is counted you will get to diminishing return with your system.

Have you seen NetGain's EMIS system? http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS.html

They put Warp motor in the middle of a RWD driveshaft. IMHO, that is much better approach to DIY hybrid. Very simple mechanical design, minimal intrusion into car's components.

I don't think you give NetGain enough credit.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

This description rang a bell. I knew I had seen an attempt like this before.

Then I found it.

http://depletedcranium.com/hybrid-conversion-kit-for-existing-automobiles/


Eric


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

These motors are talking about pulling < 20 kg. Maybe it would work for a bike motor, but I will bet my lunch money that this will not have the torque to budge even a golf cart. The max amperage is only like 145 A as well. You'd practically have to push-start the golf cart. I see no way a motor of this caliber could even begin to get the job done.

I wish the best of luck, but I am extremely skeptical that these can offer any sort of performance at all.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

dimitri said:


> I think its wrong to assume you can use oversized toy motors to power the car, while dismissing reasons why well established full size motor manufacturer is producing 100-200 lb motors. I'm not a motor expert, but I believe NetGain engineers must have reasons for their power/weight ratio, and cooling might be one of the big ones.
> 
> Like you said, I suspect cooling these little motors might be significant challenge, adding cost/complexity to the system.
> 
> ...


The only reason I can see for NetGain's strategy, apart from possible poor quality technology updates, is trying to get a profit as long as possible from their existing technology. Which is the best way to become an obsolete industry. Why were there lots of horses at the beginning of the 20th century and no cars or almost no cars? Were horses better? No, they were obsolete.

I think Michelin's Active Wheel is proof enough that it can be done:
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1030025_michelins-active-wheel-technology-in-detail
The solution we are proposing here is a down-to-earth, feasible motor wheel for everyone, one you can adapt to your existing car, contrary to Michelin's

Balloons were also toys before carrying passengers.

Cooling should be no real hurdle. These motors are used in performance model airplanes. The only thing to do is replicating their present cooling systems. If required, a dedicated small motor and fan could be installed. In the worst case scenario, it would be fairly easy to coil a thin copper tube around the motor and glue it with a heat conducting resin. Doesn't seem extremely difficult. We will try air cooling first, then liquid if required.

The controllers should be the same they are using now. They are probably quite well adapted to the power of their matching motors.

For a 2000-3000 lb, you can use 2 15kW if you want. A Peugeot 106 electrique is 21kW peak, it is heavy with lots of batteries and it is perfectly capable of keeping up with traffic. A professional cyclist is a little under 500W. Assuming anyone can push a car with 500W, 14kW would be about 28 people pushing/pulling a car. The car will start to move with a decent acceleration, no doubt.

Thank you for your car's figures. They are a good orientation. But take into account that the gearbox, differential, cardans, etc, mean 30% losses. So what you do with your car can be replicated with a 30% less energy if there are no such losses (or very little ones). It also means a longer range for any given battery pack. I assume 50-60kW is sportive acceleration, which is not intended for this system. Even so, 70% of 50 is 35, quite close to 2 motors of 15kW peak. 70% of 20kW for cruising is 14kW, it looks quite relaxed for 2 15kW motors.

If the system is scaled up, so are the costs, and returns diminish as you say. Sport cars are always less efficient in economic terms. But with this system you keep some inherent advantages, specially good for sport cars: lower weight, no transmission, and more importantly, extra space for batteries and less friction losses, two important factors that can improve range significantly. Even if the system ends up costing the same as a good electric sport car, this system is intrinsically better because of lower weight, lower friction and potentially increased range and performance.

I hadn't seen this EMIS. It is an interesting concept. Thanks. However there is no much talk about it. Any reasons?


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

esoneson said:


> This description rang a bell. I knew I had seen an attempt like this before.
> 
> Then I found it.
> 
> ...


It is as similar as getting a stomach implanted or getting a stomach attached to the outside of your belly. Which one will you prefer?


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

rillip3 said:


> These motors are talking about pulling < 20 kg. Maybe it would work for a bike motor, but I will bet my lunch money that this will not have the torque to budge even a golf cart. The max amperage is only like 145 A as well. You'd practically have to push-start the golf cart. I see no way a motor of this caliber could even begin to get the job done.
> 
> I wish the best of luck, but I am extremely skeptical that these can offer any sort of performance at all.


The magic words are 8 to 1 transmission ratio and little losses. You'd be surprised what that means.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Ok, so now you say all you need are two 15Kw motor kits.
One for each rear wheel.
Simple.
Easy.
Kit form.

Let's see now, before we even get to costs of cooling, costs of the magical 8 to 1 transmission ratio device, costs of mounting and all the other little do-dads let's look at the costs of the motors and controllers (you forgot to mention that little ditty, didn't you?).

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

Oh yes, that 15Kw per motor is *peak* lasting 15 seconds or you burn it up.


I love it when someone has great ideas but is unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

Your numbers, both economical and electrical, just don't add up.

If you think I am wrong....prove it....with a prototype built with your money.

I would love to be proven wrong because I would love to have an economical hybrid add-on to save on gas costs and reduce polution.

Eric


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

esoneson said:


> Ok, so now you say all you need are two 15Kw motor kits.
> One for each rear wheel.
> Simple.
> Easy.
> ...


Esoneson,

Apparently you're adding up the right figures. Only apparently. You are forgetting to compare with the existing alternative conversion. There are no hybrid add-ons so far, so you have to compare with a typical EV conversion. That means $10,000-12,000 for the average conversion, see www.evalbum.com

Then you have to take into account that you will only need a small battery pack (big savings) and that there are no assembly costs or very small ones. Then you get a car which is perceived as more desirable than a pure electric by 90% of consumers.

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs. 
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

So we are talking here of a system that will cost under $10,000 and will be perceived by most people as preferable to a pure electric with the current technology. I think the numbers are favorable to the new system.

Then we can discuss the prices of motors.

It is true the motors and controllers are not cheap. Well, in fact their *price *is not cheap, but there's no reason why a 15kW will not cost just double of a 7kW, that is $200, or even $100, considering they are using the same amount of materials apparently (similar weight). It means there are very considerable profits and the price can be lowered considerably.

Then you have to take into account that even with the present prices, you could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, *BUT *there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

All this means that you could get a 2,400 lbs car to perform similarly to a Peugeot 106 electrique with $200 in motors. Not bad, huh?

I hope this proves you wrong for the sake of all of us, including you of course


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Thanks for the numbers, I had no idea.

$12,000 for a full conversion
$10,000 for a hybrid add-on


Seems like the best thing to do is save $2,000. Little work, have the gas savings right away. Little down time for the vehicle.

Then again the cost for the existing system from http://depletedcranium.com/hybrid-conversion-kit-for-existing-automobiles/
is $3,300 per wheel. Times 2 is $6,600 plus $3000 for batteries and bms comes to $9,600.

So, sounds like your estimated cost for your system is pretty close to an existing hybrid system.

So now I weigh $12,000 for conversion costs with $0 for gas, $0 for ICE maintenance against $10,000 add on hybrid costs with 20% gas savings and normal costs for ICE maintenance..........over a period of the life of the batteries, say 10 years.

It will take me a while to figure this out because I am a little slow.

But, thanks again for the numbers, it really does help me to decide.

Eric


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Eric,

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...e_150A_OPTO_2-6S_Brushless_ESC_(DE_Warehouse)

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around 

$6,500

Compared to that, the Poulsen system is not a real competitor. It is not a beauty,
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/
It is still not available, they "will notify you" through an email list when it is available
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/FAQS.php

Also I wanted to add that it is not that you are having 20% gas savings. If you drive less than 30 miles a day (or 60 if recharging once during daytime), you will probably refuel only once in one or two months. And you will still be able to go with your car on long trips out of the range of a pure electric. It is probably 80% gas savings while keeping the long gas range at a far cheaper price than a pure electric or other hybrid add-ons.

We think this system is worth every cent.

Have a good day.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Can somebody please explain what is the process for the US (or elsewhere) road authorities to allow a car to legally go on the road with the hybrid kit we are talking about?

Thanks


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Eric,
> 
> The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
> http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...e_150A_OPTO_2-6S_Brushless_ESC_(DE_Warehouse)
> ...



I am sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by hybrid. I thought you were talking about an electrical assist type of setup. Using your kit will enable me to drive using only electricity for the first 30 miles (which is all about what I drive in a day anyway). Therefore I would not need to gas up only if I go over that limit.

That makes sense.

And to think I could do it using two 7KW motors is just fantastic.

My car is just under 3000 pounds.

So, I looked up the specifications (I'm a stickler for that sort of thing) of that motor. Each motor is the "*Equivalent*: 60-80cc Gas Engine".

So, again, miracle upon miracle....I can propel (i.e. accelerate, maintain speed, go up hill and down) my 3000 pound car with an electric propulsion equivalent to 120-160 CC Gas engine. 

I got to hand it to you, that's fantastic. How do you do that? 

And, by the way, I see one big difference between you and Poulsen....they have a working prototype...you don't.

And when it comes to allowing a hybrid kit on the road in the U.S., it is done mostly on a state by state basis for a kit like yours. That's 50 potentially different sets of rules and regulations. But, I think that is the least of your worries now. First, you have to make a prototype that works to put people like me to shame.

I am having a good day and I hope you do to.

Eric


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Eric,

OK, no power assist hybrid. Still, in the simplest version it will be required to keep the gas engine idling to get power assist for the steering and brakes. Or electric vacuum pump and steering pump can be mounted, therefore allowing to drive purely on electric.

If your car is about 3000 pounds it is a bit too heavy for this 14kW system, I'm sorry to say, even if there are not 30% losses as in conventional propulsion systems. The 14kW system is intended for city driving mostly. Perhaps it can be used on a flat highway below 45mph or so in a small car. But not in such a heavy car.

Assuming the motors are 3.5kW continous power, that would be 7kW. Because of the efficiency of the transmission, that equals to 10kW in a conventional engine setup (with 30% transmission losses), or about 13HP. Perhaps a small car could travel at 45mph on a flat road with 13HP. You should not expect more than that from the 14kW system, and I think it is already quite a lot from such an inexpensive setup. 

If you're not satisfied with that power for your present car, you have three options. 
1) Buy a cheap small urban car and add the kit to it. 
2) Go for a more powerful setup for your existing car or buy an EV.
3) Do nothing and keep to your gas bills.

I'm sorry to say you are wrong again with the comparison between Poulsen and us. They only have a working prototype, we have real world motors manufactured in series and a few trivial CNC parts to manufacture. That's a big difference. The motor, the heart of the Poulsen system seems to be nowhere near to a big production figure. Which waiting list would you prefer?

We will be building a prototype starting in september as I said. No need to put anyone to shame 

Thanks for your comments


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Eric,

"Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine" is referred to the gas engines used in model airplanes. That is, two stroke engines. They are far more powerful than 4 stroke gas engines for any given size. That will help you explain the "miracle". Regarding engines and motors, there are no "miracles", only sound calculations like the ones I'm giving you here.

I know calculations often look difficult, but believe me, it isn't.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

$4,100

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

$3,600

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

One humble suggestion: Why not start with a bicycle test. You would just need one controller and motor. Gear it way down with some bike sprockets and chain. Then you can see if the system will survive long hill climbs.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Eric,
> 
> OK, no power assist hybrid. Still, in the simplest version it will be required to keep the gas engine idling to get power assist for the steering and brakes. Or electric vacuum pump and steering pump can be mounted, therefore allowing to drive purely on electric.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds. 

So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.

Perhaps you have over-estimated the vehicle size that your kit will be able to handle? Perhaps David's suggestion is more in line with the size motors you are thinking about using.

Like I said, I am a simple man and look at things with an open mind. Because, you never know when someone might have that great idea. But the numbers still don't add up. Addition is one of my strong suits. 160cc equivalent motor will not propel a 1200 pound car on flat surfaces in city traffic without causing major headaches for all the other drivers around you.......let along 2400-3000 pounds as you have stated earlier. Get a bigger motor might be the answer.....but then the costs for that solution are not competitive.

I don't have any alternate solutions. Your suggested motor size won't do the job, your alternate (use the larger motors) is not cost effective. What I thought you had was a cost effective solution that would get the job done. But, I just don't see it adding up.

Thank you for taking the time to listen, I appreciate you explaining things and I am interested in a hybrid solution that would give me 30 miles of no-gas driving.

Also, your English is very good. You put me to shame with my ill-constructed composures.

Eric


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you, it is a good approach. The answer is probably yes. As I wrote before, a professional cyclist is about 500W continuous. The smallest motor we are considering is 6,000W peak. It is very liikely that a 500W performance will be no big deal for this motor.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

esoneson said:


> Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds.
> 
> So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.
> 
> ...


Eric,

I think there was something wrong with your Yamaha. 80cc two strokes are capable of speeds over 60mph...

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa-peugeot-citroen-big-electric-car-plans-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/00377%20PEUGEOT%20106%20ELECTRIC%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

Those are concrete figures. Past experiences with motorbikes are OK, but something is getting "lost in translation" 

I totally agree to have an open mind, exactly for the same reason. It is also why I give the same importance and respect to anyone, you never know who's going to come up with a decisive idea. (Experience says it will be someone else every time).

In case the 14kW power figure were wrong for a small car (it is backed by the power figures I just gave you), you could still go for a higher power, like the 30kW system. We said it is $3,900 for the motors and controllers. Let's say all other parts are $3,000, including 4 lead batteries for $600. That makes $6,900 for a system whose closest competitor is a "we will notify you" (product availability) for $10,000 or a converion for $12,000. How can you say our product will not be competitive?

Of course if you need 30 miles range, then you have to get the lithium batteries. These are adding about $2,400 to the cost, which goes close to 10,000. But it is still competitive, because we will be offering a better product than other competitors.

Thank you about my english. Yours is also good


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi JOT

There is a lot of skepticism here - the best way forwards is to build the thing

Once you have hardware and test results you will see what works

Personally I am most skeptical about the actual wheel mechanisms, there is not much space there on most cars and anything you add would have to be capable of surviving a nasty environment with water, gravel and all sorts of stuff we run over in a year, branches, possums, rabbits..


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi Duncan,

I understand that there is skepticism, and yes, we will build a prototype from september on. We will probably use recycled telecom batteries, for a cheapest version. We will keep you posted.

Yes, the parts will need some protection. But if you're going to run over possums and rabbits, if you have to, I suggest you install a fishing net too, so that at least you can have the rabbit for dinner. Even better, don't run over any animals, we don't want any issue with Greenpeace


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

One nice thing about electric power is you can just do Volts * Amps, and then derate for efficiency loss.

Comparing to displacement: We have a 100 cc minibike that barely goes 15 or 20 mph and can't handle hills at all. We also have a Yamaha KT-100 100 cc racing kart that beats the 300 hp full size car at autocross! You can feel yourself getting pushed back. It easily hits 50 or 60 mph, limited by gearing. It roars up hills like they aren't there. It would go significantly faster with taller gearing. Kart + rider is 500 to 600 lbs. Note, however, the motor is only expected to go around 50 to 100 hours between rebuilds!


esoneson said:


> Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds.
> 
> So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.
> 
> ...


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Eric,

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be 

*$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for 

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a **pure electric range of **12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).*

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100. 

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

*Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost 
*
Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

I forgot to mention that in the second alternative, pure electric conversion, you can still sell the old gas engine and gearbox for a few hundred bucks. Not a bad thing


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

I will be leaving for some free days every now and then from today till the end of august, so my posts will not be regular.

Best to you all.

JOT


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Note that two 15kW motors with their controllers are $3,900. And that two 7kW motors with their controllers are $456.

Instead of two 15kW motors (30kW), it makes much more sense mounting *FOUR 7kW motors and controllers (28kW) for a total of $912, instead of $3,900.*

Four motors will be required in a medium car, so there should be space for them in the rear wheels. In case of a compact small car, it could still be possible mounting one motor for each wheel. The front wheels will be more difficult because of the steering, but possible if the motor supports are attached to the back part of the front discs.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jot

Possums and rabbits are imported pests here, we even have an Easter Bunny Hunt with prizes for the most bunnies!


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Jot
> 
> Possums and rabbits are imported pests here, we even have an Easter Bunny Hunt with prizes for the most bunnies!


Who said Greenpeace will not be in favor of the millions of cute animals you have there, even if circumstantially they are a plague?  What is Greenpeace New Zealand saying about those animals?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi JOT

_*What is Greenpeace New Zealand saying about those animals?*_

Last I heard they were in favor of shooting the beggars but undecided about poison drops from the air.

In New Zealand even Greenpeace is not very cuddly! 

As an immigrant I was amazed at what we get away with on TV!


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, it seems they are as cuddly as Goebbels and Mengele together in the same room...
Well, I'm not sure this spirit of "save the earth by killing anything on it" is what we need for electric cars to spread, there won't be many customers...


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

*SUMMARY OF THE THREAD:*

A hybrid/EV car DIY system using high power, low weight model airplane electric motors (about 2kg or 5 lbs each), one for each rear wheel. Cost analysis and possible reductions.

Motors driving wheels by using a synchro belt or chain drive for each rear wheel, 8 to 1 approx transmission ratio. Integrated freewheel to avoid excessive rpm to the motors. Motor support attached to suspension arm (motors therefore unsuspended weight) or back side of brake discs-drums. A big pinion on the inside of the tim, mounted on a metal saucer with holes for the wheel bolts. Saucer to be installed between the rim and the hub, displacing the wheel only 2-3mm outwards.

*30kW SYSTEM*

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs. 
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

*14kW SYSTEM*

You could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, *BUT *there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...E_Warehouse%29

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around 

* $6,500*

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

* $4,100*

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

* $3,600*

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars. 

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa...-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/...%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be 

*$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for 

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a **pure electric range of **12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).*

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100. 

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

*Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost







You can still sell the old engine and gearbox for some hundred dollars.
*
*28KW SYSTEM*

Note that two 15kW motors with their controllers are $3,900. And that two 7kW motors with their controllers are $456.

Instead of two 15kW motors (30kW), it makes much more sense mounting *FOUR 7kW motors and controllers (28kW) for a total of $912, instead of $3,900.*

Four motors will be required in a medium car, so there should be space for them in the rear wheels. In case of a compact small car, it could still be possible mounting one motor for each wheel. The front wheels will be more difficult because of the steering, but possible if the motor supports are attached to the back part of the front discs.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative. 


*LINKS FOR THE MOTORS*

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...28eq:_70-40%29
6000W - 1350g - $89.99*

*http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3429-...ors-67-kw-peak
7kW - $150 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 2350g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 2350g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi JOT

Now all you have to do is to make it work!

Build it, run it on the road - *prove the concept!*

I think it will break - but then I'm an engineer - what do I know!

Prove me wrong!


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Barreiros was a Spanish entrepreneur back in the 50s, who started a successful truck make in Spain. He said:

"I converted truck gas engines into diesels because I didn't know it was impossible".



I'll try to make it work. If it helps, I'm no engineer, so what do I know...
Barreiros was no engineer either.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Barreiros at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barreiros_(manufacturer)

Barreiros later manufactured the Dodge Dart and Simca cars. Then it was sold to Chrysler. Finally it became Peugeot Spain.

It is surprising that Wikipedia is not quoting his initial activity, turning gas engines into diesel ones (gasoline was several times more expensive than diesel at that time).

*"During the post–civil war period, Barreiros transformed the gasoline motors of Spanish trucks into diesel engines".*
http://www.hbs.edu/bhr/archives/bookreviews/76/2002summerestapetriay.pdf


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi JOT,

You do know what will happen to the engineers at the RC motor manufacturers if your idea does work don't you?

Immediate termination!

If you design something that can take that level of overload your design is terrible!

A motor is designed to do its job - if an RC motor can push a car then it is massively over-designed and far too heavy and expensive for its purpose!

Still build one and test it - the proof is in the pudding!


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi Duncan,

Several things and a warning.

The market for EV conversions probably is or will be much bigger than for RC planes. If you as a baker design a bread that can be used with all types of advantages over construction bricks and no drawbacks, you will probably get more fellow bakers hired by the same company and you will be chosen to explain them how those breads are to be made 

Using model airplane electric motors to propel a car is not my idea either, I saw such a project in evalbum.com, but I can no longer find it. The precise way to carry it out is probably new, even if I can't recall how that guy intended to do it. Maybe it was not even explained.

At least there are electric go-karts using similar concepts, they are serious "toys":

*4WD hybrid electric go-kart (4 motors) *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPE3wZsY9I


*50,000 Watt Electric Go Kart*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xitMWUfeLk&feature=related


*70000 watt electric go-kart *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bERjkSTYOdU&feature=related

Even a kid can do this:

*Homemade electric go-cart *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGr4S63nu48&feature=related


(Sorry, the next one is in italian)

*Close look on the electric gokart that beat 2 strokes*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qePTYYgqa7A


Also I don't think propelling a 1:1 scale car is any more overload than propelling a big, heavy RC plane!! One of the reasons for concern would be lateral force on the motor axle in order to keep a tensioned synchro belt or chain. But I think those motors use ball bearings for their axle, so it should be no real issue if tension is just right. 

And here's the warning: Be careful not to fall into deep space, you are standing on the wrong side of the planet, right on the antipodes of Spain!! How are you able to cope?


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

This electric scooter is using a "RC aircraft motor":

http://www.evalbum.com/1464

This motorbike is using a Turnigy 6,500W motor (with "insane" acceleration):

http://www.evalbum.com/3265


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

*FOUND IT!!*

This is the project I saw at evalbum of a car being propelled by four Turnigy 80-100-A motors.

As I said, there is no explanation on how to attach the motors to the wheels. Conversion cost is a bit too high at "100,000$", so perhaps our solution is a tad cheaper 


*1995 Subaru Impreza*

http://www.evalbum.com/3063

*EL go kart *

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwODx028_Jw


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Several links:

A thread on using a similar motor:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4054-holy-smokes-7000-watt-brushless-motor-controller-recommendations

Moped conversions using these motors:

http://visforvoltage.org/blog/nasukaren
http://gpsy.com/ev/


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

While I'm new to EV's I'm not new to electric RC vehicles or electronics in general. I think the youtube video you posted with the go-cart with 3 of the motors similar to what you are planning on using pretty much sums it up. The total weight of the cart/driver/batteries is probably at most 400lbs (most likely less) and it performs reasonably well. (if you consider top speed of 90km/h reasonable for a vehicle with very little aerodynamic drag) Scale that up to 2400lbs and what do you get? 18 motors? 18 controllers? My Porsche conversion will probably be 3200lbs with me in it, would that mean 24 motors and controllers? If that's the case then the Netgain Warp9 is a bargain.

The cart also has to use a clutch because the motors have no power at stall speeds, how does this work with a direct drive 8 to 1 gear ratio?

I personally think those are cool motors, one of them might be a great solution in everyones EV.... to power the AC or power steering, but not the car.

To: JOT 12directblue.com, I think your enthusiasm is great and bring that enthusiasm to the EV community is even better. But you need to go back to the drawing board, I'm not trying to burst your bubble or be an ass, but I've gone through the calculations and power requirements 100 times in the past couple months figuring out what the minimum motor power/battery power/controller power is for my conversion. Physics is physics and there are no shortcuts, or magical miniature motors. Good luck with the hybrid, it's not a bad idea, you just need to find the right hardware.


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## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

Just how heavy do you think those RC planes are?

RE: The 15kw Hacker motor. It's rated at 15kw peak (for 15 secs), about 9kw nominal. For about $1025. My 192v 11" Kostov will do 40.4kw ALL DAY, and peaks at 125+ kw... for $2000.



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Also I don't think propelling a 1:1 scale car is any more overload than propelling a big, heavy RC plane!!


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Have you seen NetGain's EMIS system? http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS.html
> 
> They put Warp motor in the middle of a RWD driveshaft. IMHO, that is much better approach to DIY hybrid. Very simple mechanical design, minimal intrusion into car's components.
> 
> I don't think you give NetGain enough credit.


The biggest problem is that neither one of these is cost effective AFAIK, although at least netgain's system will work. If the vehicle has to idle down the road then it's not gonna save anyone a cent. The only decent setup I can think of is installing w/ a Warp 9 or similar motor and ~3.5+kWh of A123 26650 cells at ~200-250lbs in a vehicle with a manual transmission and either manual brakes or an electric brake booter, and even then it would take ~60+k miles to pay off all the hardware assuming ~300Wh/mile (battery not plug) w/ free electricity from a 3k lb vehicle in the city compared to ~20mpg. If you can get 30mpg in the city there's no cost advantage unless you can also go as low as ~200Wh/mile, and even then it would take longer. Assuming two 10 mile trips per day, that's a minimum of ~10 years.



[URL="http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/member.php?u=12382" said:


> JOT 12directblue.com[/url]]I think Michelin's Active Wheel is proof enough that it can be done:
> http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...logy-in-detail
> The solution we are proposing here is a down-to-earth, feasible motor wheel for everyone, one you can adapt to your existing car, contrary to Michelin's


If you had two ~25lb motors rated at 20hp continuous/40hp peak each in a <2000lb car, sure. That said, the largest motor you mentioned is way too small to provide ~20hp continuous.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

rwaudio said:


> While I'm new to EV's I'm not new to electric RC vehicles or electronics in general. I think the youtube video you posted with the go-cart with 3 of the motors similar to what you are planning on using pretty much sums it up. The total weight of the cart/driver/batteries is probably at most 400lbs (most likely less) and it performs reasonably well. (if you consider top speed of 90km/h reasonable for a vehicle with very little aerodynamic drag) Scale that up to 2400lbs and what do you get? 18 motors? 18 controllers? My Porsche conversion will probably be 3200lbs with me in it, would that mean 24 motors and controllers? If that's the case then the Netgain Warp9 is a bargain.
> 
> The cart also has to use a clutch because the motors have no power at stall speeds, how does this work with a direct drive 8 to 1 gear ratio?
> 
> ...


Hi, Rwaudio,

Just a quick reply, I'm out for holidays. Thank you for rising some questions, that will help to consider every aspect.

First thing is we do not intend a sport conversion, just something good enough to get by in everyday's city traffic. The main aim is being able to go electric without saying goodbye to a fortune for a new car. Most people won't be able to pay a lot for a new electric car.

The Peugeot 106 electrique is 11kW continuous and 21kW peak and is able to do just that at 2,400lbs, with 30% power losses because of a complicated power transmission from motor to wheels. The details are in this thread.

You are probably right that some type of clutch will be required. Karts are using a centrifugal type, they are inexpensive and simple.

I understand your doubts, this is what we want to clarify. We will try to do that from september on. Minimum is the key word and we want to explore what that minimum is. We only risk burning some cheap hardware, so no real pain.

Thank you again for expressing your doubts. Please keep an eye on this project for any other objections that might help us find the way. If we manage to succeed, many people might benefit from this.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Overlander23 said:


> Just how heavy do you think those RC planes are?
> 
> RE: The 15kw Hacker motor. It's rated at 15kw peak (for 15 secs), about 9kw nominal. For about $1025. My 192v 11" Kostov will do 40.4kw ALL DAY, and peaks at 125+ kw... for $2000.


Hi Overlander23,

Heavy model planes can be about 14lbs. It is quite a hard job to get that in the air.

The problem with big motors is that they need a full conversion of the car. So, more expensive and no big range anymore. If we make a cheap add-on kit that still leaves the gas engine in the car to go on the road for long trips, that will attract many people.

The optimum cost for us is the $99, 7kW motor.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> The Peugeot 106 electrique is 11kW continuous and 21kW peak and is able to do just that at 2,400lbs, with 30% power losses because of a complicated power transmission from motor to wheels. The details are in this thread.


Complicated transmission? All the electric 106 has is a single set of gears for reduction, which is exactly what you're planning. W/ 15kW and slightly shorter gearing it'll take at least ~25+ seconds to reach top speed given 15kW, and ~10+s to reach 30mph. Since the motor you're suggesting can only output 15kW for 15s, then 9kW (Where did you get that figure from?) after, it'll take a lot longer then 25+s to reach those higher speeds.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

roflwaffle said:


> Complicated transmission? All the electric 106 has is a single set of gears for reduction, which is exactly what you're planning. W/ 15kW and slightly shorter gearing it'll take at least ~25+ seconds to reach top speed given 15kW, and ~10+s to reach 30mph. Since the motor you're suggesting can only output 15kW for 15s, then 9kW (Where did you get that figure from?) after, it'll take a lot longer then 25+s to reach those higher speeds.


Thank you Roflwaffle for your considerations on power, we will take them into account.

Complicated transmission means gears, a differential and two cardans for every axle. It could be thar losses for that system are slightly lower than 30% (not a big gearbox), and then two synchro belts or chain drives will also have some losses. We expect those losses to be notably lower than those for a conventional system with a single big motor and its transmission.

The simplest system we are thinking of is 6+6kW peak, which is probably 3+3kW continous. Then we could scale from there up. If power is too low, we can have 12+12kW peak with 2 motors of 6kW peak for each rear wheel, or 12+12+12+12, two motor for each wheel, or even 30+30, with two 15kW motors for each rear wheel, etc. Even if the price advantage is disappearing, there are still space, range and weight advantages.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Thank you Roflwaffle for your considerations on power, we will take them into account.
> 
> Complicated transmission means gears, a differential and two cardans for every axle. It could be thar losses for that system are slightly lower than 30% (not a big gearbox), and then two synchro belts or chain drives will also have some losses. We expect those losses to be notably lower than those for a conventional system with a single big motor and its transmission.
> 
> The simplest system we are thinking of is 6+6kW peak, which is probably 3+3kW continous. Then we could scale from there up. If power is too low, we can have 12+12kW peak with 2 motors of 6kW peak for each rear wheel, or 12+12+12+12, two motor for each wheel, or even 30+30, with two 15kW motors for each rear wheel, etc. Even if the price advantage is disappearing, there are still space, range and weight advantages.


I guess if you lighten the vehicle enough there is a remote possibility you could make it move. I would say your 3+3kW continuous rating is probably real, atleast for a 20 minute rating since this is hobby stuff. However that 6kW is 8hp electrical. So 5-6 mechanical hp should get to your wheels in a very efficient system.
So you should be looking at donor vehicles with gas engines in the 15-30peak hp range. 

Perhaps due to the very compact size and resonable weight of these items you should look at the ATV/Motorcycle/NEV/lawn tractor markets instead, an electric motorcycle conversion for a popular brand or model that comes in kit form could be a hot seller. Same with the lawn tractor, I'm sure people would be a little more open to that type of conversion. That way you also get to start smaller with conversions that have a higher chance of working, and maybe even working well, at the same level or even better than the gas version.

After that scaling up to cars really isn't as big a jump and you would already have a better idea of the power requirements.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

rwaudio said:


> I guess if you lighten the vehicle enough there is a remote possibility you could make it move. I would say your 3+3kW continuous rating is probably real, atleast for a 20 minute rating since this is hobby stuff. However that 6kW is 8hp electrical. So 5-6 mechanical hp should get to your wheels in a very efficient system.
> So you should be looking at donor vehicles with gas engines in the 15-30peak hp range.
> 
> Perhaps due to the very compact size and resonable weight of these items you should look at the ATV/Motorcycle/NEV/lawn tractor markets instead, an electric motorcycle conversion for a popular brand or model that comes in kit form could be a hot seller. Same with the lawn tractor, I'm sure people would be a little more open to that type of conversion. That way you also get to start smaller with conversions that have a higher chance of working, and maybe even working well, at the same level or even better than the gas version.
> ...


Rwaudio,

Thanks for the suggestion to offer kits for smaller vehicles first. It is a good idea.

Let me say that 6kW continuous is not as little as it seems. The Peugeot 106 electrique is 11kW contiuous and is 2,400lbs as I said earlier. This minimal kit could fit very light cars around 2,000lbs and still perform reasonably good. Also think that a professional cyclist is about 400W continuous. So 6kW continuous is the equivalent of 15 young, perfectly fit people pushing a little car. Go to 12kW peak and it is exactly 30 young men pushing a little car. It will start moving with a decent acceleration, no doubt.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Thank you Roflwaffle for your considerations on power, we will take them into account.
> 
> Complicated transmission means gears, a differential and two cardans for every axle. It could be thar losses for that system are slightly lower than 30% (not a big gearbox), and then two synchro belts or chain drives will also have some losses. We expect those losses to be notably lower than those for a conventional system with a single big motor and its transmission.


Generally speaking losses for what you're describing (newish FWD manual transaxle) are around 6-10%. The 106 electric probably has one set of gears probably connected to a CV, so losses are probably around 3%, which is pretty much what you're describing. The only vehicles w/ ~30% transmission losses I can think of were RWD automatics w/o torque converter clutches. 

The problem with single speed is that according to every motor efficiency curve I've seen, you're going to take a ~10%-50% hit in terms of motor efficiency by going w/ a single speed setup. Low speed high torque is generally terrible in terms of motor efficiency. Higher speeds/low torque is where most motors are most efficient. Also, how are you going fabricate the motor/gears/chain drives? For simplicities sake it should probably be unsprung, so either your kit is going to be prohibitively expensive, or if you're offering this to only people who can fab themselves, and for them it's probably not worth the purchase price because they can put something similar or better together for a similar or lower price.


JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Let me say that 6kW continuous is not as little as it seems. The Peugeot 106 electrique is 11kW contiuous and is 2,400lbs as I said earlier. This minimal kit could fit very light cars around 2,000lbs and still perform reasonably good. Also think that a professional cyclist is about 400W continuous. So 6kW continuous is the equivalent of 15 young, perfectly fit people pushing a little car. Go to 12kW peak and it is exactly 30 young men pushing a little car. It will start moving with a decent acceleration, no doubt.


Well, that depends on your definition of decent acceleration. If by reasonably good you mean similar performance to a fully loaded dump truck, then yeah, the 106 electric is reasonably good. Top speed is 56mph on flat ground at 11 kW, so w/ 6kW continuous top speed in a similar vehicle is going to be ~40mph on flat ground. It would have a similar top speed to some of those 50cc motorized bicycle kits w/ worse acceleration. I'm guessing performance would be equivalent to a pro-cyclist give or take.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Roflwaffle,

It would be good trying to get more info on losses for different types of transmissions. You're probably right with some of the things you say. Can you give us some source for your figures?

Yes, we intend the kits to be unsprung weight. Because of the low weight, no modifications to the suspension should be required. Manufacturing should not be expensive: a saucer (to be inserted between the rim and the wheel hub) with holes for the wheel bolts and a big pinion/chain wheel, a small pinion/chain wheel for the motor, fitted with a centrifugal clutch and a freewheel, and a motor support. Not very complex. The economic nature of the project is still to be defined, but we will sell only to those who cannot fab themselves. We will offer some support to those who can fab it for themselves.

We are speaking here of a complete system from around $4,000. That would turn a small car into a hybrid, not bad, is it? Please read earlier posts for cost analysis.

Decent acceleration as opposed to drag racing . We intend the vehicles to be capable of unobstructing city driving. And yes, 40mph top speed would be a good figure. Please bear in mind that these kits are add-ons for a car keeping its gas engine. So over 40mph you can still use the engine. You could even use it together with the motors under 40mph for traffic light drag racing


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

This seems a good article on power transmission losses:

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/POWER3.htm
Read *True Transmission Losses*. They quote a 25% tyre and transmission loss for a small 60bhp Ford Fiesta.


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

Modern manual transaxle efficiency is generally close to 95% (page 36) although it depends on input torque. Unlocked automatics tend to be around 70% (page 36) at low speeds. A single set of chain driven gears are going to be at ~98+%, although if you take a look at any motor efficiency map it tends to be worthwhile to give up a few points in terms of transmission efficiency for much greater motor efficiency, provided the designers are concerned w/ it.

Given your setup, I'm wondering if there's enough room for a cent. clutch. You're going to need at good 5+ inches of clearance between the hub and inside of the wheel. What are the specs for the $4000 complete system? Anyway, like I said before, if you think a car accelerating slower than any other vehicle on the road except for a bicycle is decent, then go for it. I doubt it would sell but the only way to find out is to try.

Edit- Regarding the pumaracing page, I'd be careful about applying the results from peak power to transmission efficiency in general, or for that matter the generalized concepts the author is applying. The author is correct about the differences in testing, which can even vary by manufacturer, but they don't mention anything about the test bed they used to come up w/ their data.

Here's some more info from the EPA citing the authors of some SAE papers on transmission efficiency. I'd go with them over a random website.



> Manual transmissions range in efficiency from 87-99%. Automatic transmissions range 85 – 95% when locked, but can drop to 60 - 85% unlocked. An overall 1.5% improvement in transmission efficiency could correspond to a 0.1 km/L increase in fuel economy [Greenbaum, et al., 1994; Kluger, et al., 1995; Bishop, et al., 1996]. Manual transmissions have similar efficiencies to continuously variable transmissions (CVT), so can be seen as equivalent to advanced transmissions.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Roflwaffle,

Definitely SAE is to trust over any web page. Thank you.

This is for the centrifugal clutches (upto 13HP):

http://www.amazon.com/Hilliard-Extreme-Duty-Centrifugal-Clutch-Tooth/dp/B0006UEXGQ

http://www.hilliardextremeduty.com/extremeduty/

This is regarding the systems. Losses figures will probably have to be recalculated:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/please-give-me-your-opinion-new-48191p4.html

*30kW SYSTEM

*15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs. 
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

*14kW SYSTEM*

You could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, *BUT *there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...E_Warehouse%29

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around 

*$6,500*

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

*$4,100*

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

*$3,600*

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars. 

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa...-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/...%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be 

*$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for 

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a **pure electric range of **12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).*

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100. 

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

*Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost







You can still sell the old engine and gearbox for some hundred dollars.
*
*28KW SYSTEM*

Note that two 15kW motors with their controllers are $3,900. And that two 7kW motors with their controllers are $456.

Instead of two 15kW motors (30kW), it makes much more sense mounting *FOUR 7kW motors and controllers (28kW) for a total of $912, instead of $3,900.*

Four motors will be required in a medium car, so there should be space for them in the rear wheels. In case of a compact small car, it could still be possible mounting one motor for each wheel. The front wheels will be more difficult because of the steering, but possible if the motor supports are attached to the back part of the front discs.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative. 


*LINKS FOR THE MOTORS*

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...28eq:_70-40%29
6000W - 1350g - $89.99*

*http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3429-...ors-67-kw-peak
7kW - $150 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 2350g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 2350g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

So when does the first youtube video of your prototype conversion come out? That will speak louder than words. The only way to prove your concept is to do it, and prove the skeptics wrong (myself included).

Document the conversion, take lots of pictures and video, show how easy it really is but don't forget about safety. The "hybrid" will need a safe way of controlling the throttle, are you going to use the original? Make a second throttle? The car will need to be "on" for headlights and other things to work, so make sure you think of things like the ignition and fuel pump being powered while the engine isn't running. Or if the engine will be running will it be in neutral? I would say a hybrid would be much harder to impliment smoothly and safely than a pure electric, especailly when hauling around the all the ICE weight. How will you start the gas engine safely while in motion, just make sure you consider the little details.

I assume it would be a plug in hybrid or you are simply giving a small car slightly better fuel economy. 

Not that it really matters but what is your background? Formal education? Experience in the automotive industry? Electronics industry? Not that the best idea or design can't come from someone without this experience. A motivated "cheapskate" could probably come up with a more economical hybrid or electric than I ever could. (I'm not calling you a cheapskate, just expressing a generalized point)

Good luck!


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Roflwaffle,
> 
> Definitely SAE is to trust over any web page. Thank you.
> 
> ...


No problem! If you dish the big "gear" that bolts on between the hub and wheel you'll probably be O.K. w/ your setup but you'll still have to bolt the motor to the hub and have everything sealed. Given the difference in vehicle suspension design you wouldn't be able to mass produce much. 



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> *30kW SYSTEM
> 
> *15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
> controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560
> ...


A potential problem here is that some can get a ~50+kW system for less than $3000. $2000 for a Kostov 11" motor (Or maybe less for a 9" ADC if it can take 500A) and another $600 for a ~70kW controller, plus S&H/tax. 



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs.
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
> BMS can be about $500.


It's going to be closer to $3,000, plus maybe S&H/tax.


JOT 12directblue.com said:


> *14kW SYSTEM*
> 
> You could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, *BUT *there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.


Are you just copying and pasting? The transmission in the Peugeot 106 electrique is just a ~7:1 gear reduction, so losses from motor to wheel are around 3%, not 30%. It's pretty much identical to what you're proposing but they probably use gear on gear w/ a CV going to the wheel as opposed to your plan of using a gearset connected via chain.



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at
> 
> *$3,600*
> 
> Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.


The problem w/ used batteries is lifespan versus price and availability. Do you have a link to these batteries for sale?



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:
> 
> Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.
> 
> ...


Assuming you can get the large cheap batteries for ~$100, why not just have a normal compact commuter for $1000 and build an EV w/ similar performance and better range for another $1000? Total cost is $2,600 less, and you have an EV w/ better range as well as a conventional car w/ better performance.



JOT 12directblue.com said:


> If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100.
> 
> That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).
> 
> ...


Considering a small EV conversion w/ similar range is ~$1000, I think someone can do a lot better than what you're proposing w/ a bit more elbow grease. Smaller motors are O.K. for smaller vehicles, but the price versus performance of what you're suggesting just doesn't pan out compared to alternatives. If someone really wants a newer PHEV I imagine even a used Prius PHEV would be a better idea at ~$10,000. It would be more expensive, but it would be much more efficient in terms of electric only use and conventional use than retrofitting an old Panda. Plus it's bigger and more comfortable.


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Some interesting material to keep an eye on:

http://www.electricppg.com/Developments/Elektro/Elektro_electric_paramotor.htm


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

Rwaudio,

No date for a video so far. We will start building a prototype in september. Yes, we will try to document everything as much as possible.

Yes, we intend to use a second throttle, the type used in cars for the disabled (driving wheel throttle). In the cheapest version, the engine would be idling in neutral, so no need for electric vacuum pump or electric power steering. Ideally, the two propulsion systems should be fully independent, so that one, the other or both could be used at the same time.

It is true what you say about carrying the ICE weight around. But bear in mind that this extra weight can be used constructively when facing an uphill road, for instance.

The engine could be safely started in motion in neutral if both systems use a different throttle and the same electric vacuum pump and power steering. In the cheapest version (no electric vacuum pump or steering) the engine should be started at the beginning and kept idling.

Sure we intend it to be a plug in hybrid, so no need to buy gas if driving is kept within the electric range.

My background is entrepenurial. I can get into technical details to some (limited) extent, but my role is supervising and coordinating operations. In the team we also have a plane mechanic and a former technical director for a servomotors factory. And above all, we all have a DIY spirit!

Yes, I understand your use of "cheapskate". We can use that approach or GM's way. Well, to be sincere, our pockets might not be as deep as GM's, so let's go the first way just for this time 

Thank you, if we succeed that will make transport a little easier on everyone's pockets!


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## JOT 12directblue.com (Aug 11, 2010)

roflwaffle said:


> No problem! If you dish the big "gear" that bolts on between the hub and wheel you'll probably be O.K. w/ your setup but you'll still have to bolt the motor to the hub and have everything sealed. Given the difference in vehicle suspension design you wouldn't be able to mass produce much.


We will explore welding the motor supports to either the hubs (front and/or rear) or the rear suspension arms. So this could be a complete add-on technology. We don't intend to seal everything but a limited protection to some parts. Motorbike style should be enough.



roflwaffle said:


> A potential problem here is that some can get a ~50+kW system for less than $3000. $2000 for a Kostov 11" motor (Or maybe less for a 9" ADC if it can take 500A) and another $600 for a ~70kW controller, plus S&H/tax.


Even so, they won't be able to build a hybrid with those heavy components (or at least not with such a powerful ICE engine). If we are speaking of a pure electric, they won't have as much space for batteries or a reduced weight, all of which will affect range. Normally the best technical solution is not the cheapest one. 



roflwaffle said:


> Are you just copying and pasting? The transmission in the Peugeot 106 electrique is just a ~7:1 gear reduction, so losses from motor to wheel are around 3%, not 30%. It's pretty much identical to what you're proposing but they probably use gear on gear w/ a CV going to the wheel as opposed to your plan of using a gearset connected via chain.


The Peugeot 106 is a relatively old model designed in the 90s. I think there is only a single speed setup.



roflwaffle said:


> The problem w/ used batteries is lifespan versus price and availability. Do you have a link to these batteries for sale?


There are some recycling companies offering them. But you have to get them locally. You should get to know which company is doing the maintenance for the antennas of your local cell phone operators and contact them for discarded batteries. Batteries are systematically replaced when they reach about 75% of their capacity, even if they could be still used for two or three years. Perhaps there is a thread for that in this site.



roflwaffle said:


> Assuming you can get the large cheap batteries for ~$100, why not just have a normal compact commuter for $1000 and build an EV w/ similar performance and better range for another $1000? Total cost is $2,600 less, and you have an EV w/ better range as well as a conventional car w/ better performance.


Yes, that is also entirely possible. In fact our kits should be adequate to build a pure EV too. It is only that it will be more time consuming and you will no longer get the gas range.



roflwaffle said:


> Considering a small EV conversion w/ similar range is ~$1000, I think someone can do a lot better than what you're proposing w/ a bit more elbow grease. Smaller motors are O.K. for smaller vehicles, but the price versus performance of what you're suggesting just doesn't pan out compared to alternatives. If someone really wants a newer PHEV I imagine even a used Prius PHEV would be a better idea at ~$10,000. It would be more expensive, but it would be much more efficient in terms of electric only use and conventional use than retrofitting an old Panda. Plus it's bigger and more comfortable.


Depending on the power you choose, you can convert almost any vehicle with an add on kit. So that allows you to convert your existing car. Used Priuses are OK, but I guess many people would prefer their own present car, especially because it was chosen among a wider range than one single model, it might be newer than a used Prius, it is already there, and there is no need to buy but the add-ons.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...e-me-your-opinion-new-p199109.html#post199109


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## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Even so, they won't be able to build a hybrid with those heavy components (or at least not with such a powerful ICE engine). If we are speaking of a pure electric, they won't have as much space for batteries or a reduced weight, all of which will affect range. Normally the best technical solution is not the cheapest one.


Most cars have ~800+lbs of weight capacity, so I doubt an extra 100lbs for a much more powerful motor would be a deal killer, especially when it takes performance from good cyclist levels to anemic small car levels. Range also won't be hit enough (~2%-5% reduction) to give up decent acceleration in the eyes of most. Maybe someone w/ used LAs would be better off w/ a less powerful motor because it would limit the Peukert's losses, but in that case they would probably be better off doing everything themselves w/ a dedicated ~$1k EV.


JOT 12directblue.com said:


> There are some recycling companies offering them. But you have to get them locally. You should get to know which company is doing the maintenance for the antennas of your local cell phone operators and contact them for discarded batteries. Batteries are systematically replaced when they reach about 75% of their capacity, even if they could be still used for two or three years. Perhaps there is a thread for that in this site.


Do you have contact info for any of these companies? Based on what you're saying it appears that only someone fortunate enough to be close to one of these companies would be able to get very cheap LA batteries.


JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Yes, that is also entirely possible. In fact our kits should be adequate to build a pure EV too. It is only that it will be more time consuming and you will no longer get the gas range.


How will you not get the gas range w/ a stock gas car?


JOT 12directblue.com said:


> Depending on the power you choose, you can convert almost any vehicle with an add on kit. So that allows you to convert your existing car. Used Priuses are OK, but I guess many people would prefer their own present car, especially because it was chosen among a wider range than one single model, it might be newer than a used Prius, it is already there, and there is no need to buy but the add-ons.


Could be. The only way to find out is to try. Don't forget to post your results here and good luck!


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## caspian (Aug 18, 2010)

I like the idea of a lightweight, cheap, plugin hybrid kit that's quick and easy to install or cheap to have someone else install. If it doesn't always give enough power or store enough energy and you need to occasionally use fuel that's okay. 80% fuel savings would be fine, and less would still be acceptable.

It looks like the 30% losses for putting the motor in the engine are not correct. If it's just as easy and the motor can take the heat of being near the engine, I think it would be best mounted there like a starter motor, and getting the advantage of multiple gear ratios, and avoid it needing to be in the wheels. 

If you do put the motors in the wheels, and don't want all of the cooling system as unsprung weight as well, maybe connecting up a separately powered fan with a flexible air duct would help.

There's discussion about using RC brushless motors on bikes on endless-sphere.com and one of the issues seems to be that the controllers have to work harder at partial throttle than when fully on. So you may need a better controller 
than what could power the same motor on a plane.

The idea of having a separate throttle for the electric motors looks like a nice simple solution for controlling the system.

Adding more motors (more power) for each wheel seems like a good idea but makes space more cramped. What about using the motors to power a shaft that goes into the wheel - either the original shaft or an extra one?


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