# Newbie needs a better controller!



## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm new here, but not new to EVs, having driven electric for two years before getting my Porsche conversion.

I've introduced myself, with background, on this thread.

My car, which I've had for three weeks now, is a 2003 Porsche 911 with a 200 ah 144 volt LiFePO4 pack from HiPower, an 11-inch Warp motor, and a 500-amp Curtis controller. It was supposed to have been built with a 1,000-amp controller, but the builder had several catastrophic failures of the controllers he was using, and substituted the Curtis, which he said was very reliable. But the result is mismatched and vastly underpowered. When cold it accelerates slowly, and when hot it's only a little stronger than the Zap Xebra it replaces. (The little three-legged clown car was my primary car for all my daily driving for two years.)

Since there are 1,400 people ahead of me on the list to get a Zilla, and no telling when they'll actually start making them again, I am asking for recommendations for a controller. I believe I need a 1,000-amp controller, 144 volts, that either has MUCH better cooling than the Curtis, or is much more tolerant of high temperatures.

Daniel


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Well I'm not going to tell you anything that you don't already know., but for that sake of hearing myself type.

the only 1000A controller that I know of on the market currently is the Logisystems, their reputation isn't the greatest, but if you want 1000A it is pretty much your only off the shelf choice. 

There is some talk on the electrocraft thread that the maker can build you a custom version of his controller at up to 1000A, but I haven't heard of anyone actually testing one. Also the Synkromotive controller is just coming out it is rated up 156V at 650A I believe. EVCOMPONENTS.com has them for sale. 

Your best bet however is the Zilla and if its worth it to you there is a LV and HV Zilla for sale at EVCOMPONENTS.com, if you don't mind paying 50% higher then retail for it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> ...
> I've introduced myself, with background, on this thread.
> 
> My car, which I've had for three weeks now, is a 2003 Porsche 911 with a 200 ah 144 volt LiFePO4 pack from HiPower, an 11-inch Warp motor, and a 500-amp Curtis controller. It was supposed to have been built with a 1,000-amp controller, but the builder had several catastrophic failures of the controllers he was using, and substituted the Curtis, which he said was very reliable. ...


The Curtis' are very reliable when paired with the 9" WarP motors, but IIRC people here reported problems when trying to drive 11" WarP's. Frankly, if the vehicle needs an 11" WarP to get up and go, 500A isn't going to cut it no matter how reliable the controller is. 

Logisystems has left a very bad taste in a lot of dealer's/conversion shop's/end-user's mouths because they released an untested product onto the market and then took several months to work through the problems with it. Furthermore, many people here are extremely skeptical their product can meet it's claimed current specs anyway because at 1000A every tenth of a volt drop results in 100W of heat from conduction losses (there are also switching losses which in good designs are around 0.5-1% of the total power) that needs to be dissipated, and that enclosure MIGHT be capable of dissipating 300-400W as it is.

At any rate, with an honest 1000A on tap you should be able to meet your projected 0-60 time of 8 seconds with a single WarP 11" motor. The resident motor expert here is "major" and he may chime in. He certainly does a good job of correcting me when I'm wrong 

If you look at the motor output graphs for the Warp 11" you can estimate the maximum torque delivered for a given amperage:

200A = ~40 ft-lbs
300A = ~56 ft-lbs
400A = ~112 ft-lbs

This is not-quite-linear relationship, but if we assume that it is for the sake of this example you could expect to get twice as much torque from the motor at 1000A than you would at 500A, or around 200 to 280 ft-lbs of torque from the Warp 11. The 2003 911 engine could deliver 273 ft-lbs of torque at 4250 rpm, so you are definitely in the ball park for achieving similar (or much better) acceleration times with 1000A and a WarP 11. 

One other very important thing to keep in mind is the amount of time the motor can spend at a given current level. According to George at NetGain, the WarP motors can tolerate 1000A for 20 seconds before something overheats (probably the brush assembly). Logisystems controllers are strictly analog (i.e. - "dumb") so if they really can put out 1000A for 2 minutes (or whatever the spec is) then they will happily cook a WarP motor sooner or later. This is just one of many reasons to use a microprocessor to manage things inside the controller: it can keep track of the amps over time delivered to the motor, among other things, to protect it (and the battery pack) from abuse.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for the information.

My battery pack is supposed to be good for 1C continuous, 3C peak, and 10C spike, but different people are telling me different things about how long a spike can be.

A local EV builder tells me that "spike" is only a couple of seconds, and he uses the 3C figure to tell me that I'll only get 600 amps from my batteries, which would be a minimal improvement over the 500 the Curtis is capable of. He recommended against a 1000-amp controller for this reason. But another part of my concern is that after 15 or 20 miles the car has almost no power, so I assume the Curtis is overheating. The local fellow recommends a big heat sink on the Curtis.

As I mentioned in my original post, the mismatch was due to the forced change from the original plan when the builder had to abandon the 1000-a controller for a 500-a one. This apparently leaves me with the worst of both worlds: Insufficient power AND a motor with a narrow torque band. It sounds as though upgrading the controller OR downgrading the motor would improve my car!

A poster over at TeslaMotorsClub predicts that a 1000-a controller would give me around a 30% increase in power. That would be a big improvement if the controller also had adequate heat dissipation so that the performance would not degrade after 15 or 20 miles. VW Bugs beat me off the line after I get off the freeway after a 20-mile drive.

Yesterday I took the temperatures of motor and controller after driving 29 miles in town at a rate of 392 wh/mi (I was not trying to drive gently because range was not an issue). The motor was 199.5 degrees and the controller was 123.5 degrees. The car was just beginning to show reduced power.

Daniel


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> ...
> My battery pack is supposed to be good for 1C continuous, 3C peak, and 10C spike, but different people are telling me different things about how long a spike can be.


LFP batteries (LFP is a bastardized abbreviation for Lithium Iron Phosphate, btw) are *usually* specified to tolerate delivering 3C amps continuously and 10C peak, not 1C continuous, 3C peak and 10C spike. Spike = peak = max current allowed for a few seconds.




daniel1948 said:


> A local EV builder tells me that "spike" is only a couple of seconds, and he uses the 3C figure to tell me that I'll only get 600 amps from my batteries, which would be a minimal improvement over the 500 the Curtis is capable of. He recommended against a 1000-amp controller for this reason.


Your EV builder has no clue how a controller works, then, and is giving you bad advice as a result. I'll not go into the theory here - it's easy enough for you to learn more if you so choose - but essentially the battery pack current is always less than the motor current EXCEPT when the controller is "fully on" (aka - at 100% duty cycle). 

As a realistic example, a WarP 11 requires 72V and ~375A to turn at 1500 rpm and deliver 100 ft-lbs of torque. The mechanical (output) power here is 28.6 hp while the electrical (input) power is 36.2 hp (79% efficient, which is 6-7 points less than the graph, but close enough). If the battery pack voltage under load is 144V while the average motor voltage is 72V, then the duty cycle is 50%. In this case, battery amps will be 1/2 of the motor amps.

That is to say, if your battery pack is 144V and motor amps are maxed out at 500A then battery amps will be:

50A @ 10% Duty Cycle (Motor Volts = 14.4V)
100A @ 20% (28.8V)
200A @ 40% (57.6V)
400A @ 80% (115.2V)
500A @ 100% (144V)

Practically speaking, duty cycle is proportional to motor RPM at a given motor current, so when accelerating hard from a stop duty cycle will start out rather low - in the 10-20% range according to the streaming data from our prototype controller - and increase as motor rpm increases _as long as maximum current is demanded from the controller_. 



daniel1948 said:


> But another part of my concern is that after 15 or 20 miles the car has almost no power, so I assume the Curtis is overheating. The local fellow recommends a big heat sink on the Curtis.


Correct - the Curtis is getting hot and reducing the current limit as a result. All controllers need to do this to survive and since the current allowed through a semiconductors is typically derated to zero as temp climbs from 25C to 100C, it doesn't take much of a rise in temp before you lose a good chunk of your controller's current rating (unless the parts inside are grossly overrated, that is). Putting a heat sink on your Curtis may be tantamount to a band-aid over a stab wound, though, because you really need more current if you want your converted 911 to drive like the original.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> at a rate of 392 wh/mi (I was not trying to drive gently because range was not an issue).


Hi daniel,

Even still, seems pretty high energy use. You sure you don't have something else going on with consuming power between the motor and the road?

And, without checking all his figures, looks like Tesseract is giving some sound advice. 

Regards,

major

ps...I assume you have a manual tranny. Are you using a gear selection which keeps you motor RPM up and motor amps down? Using too high a gear selection can cause higher motor currents and heating in both motor and controller.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> LFP batteries (LFP is a bastardized abbreviation for Lithium Iron Phosphate, btw) are *usually* specified to tolerate delivering 3C amps continuously and 10C peak, not 1C continuous, 3C peak and 10C spike. Spike = peak = max current allowed for a few seconds.
> 
> Your EV builder has no clue how a controller works, then, and is giving you bad advice as a result. I'll not go into the theory here - it's easy enough for you to learn more if you so choose - but essentially the battery pack current is always less than the motor current EXCEPT when the controller is "fully on" (aka - at 100% duty cycle).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. The battery specs come from the battery importer, who says they are rated for 1C continuous, 3C peak, and 10C spike. But he says that the pack could easily provide the current for hard acceleration. 1000 amps would only be 5C for this pack, and I only see peak amperage for a short time.

It does look as though a better controller is what I need. The motor is probably too big, but is based on what Paul had told me to expect in the way of performance.



major said:


> Hi daniel,
> 
> Even still, seems pretty high energy use. You sure you don't have something else going on with consuming power between the motor and the road?
> 
> ...


I do not know that nothing else is consuming power, but I can say that the car glides very well and smoothly. It does not feel as though anything is causing undue drag. Several people have suggested, however, that the p/s/ pump could be taking as much as 20% of my power.

You are correct about the tranny: six-speed manual.

I may not be using the best gear selection, but I do understand the need to use a lower gear rather than a higher one. I am using 4th gear on the freeway above 50 mph. Today I was driving between 60 and 65 to Coeur d'Alene and back (50 miles round trip) and used 130 of my 200 amp-hours. The car will go 70 mph in 3rd gear, but it really sounds unhappy doing it.

The car is comfortable and fun to drive. I am disappointed with the range, but I can live with it. If a 1,000-amp controller gives me a bit more acceleration and does not overheat, this will be a nice car, and well worth half what I paid for it.  

Daniel


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Several people have suggested, however, that the p/s/ pump could be taking as much as 20% of my power.


 Those people really need to learn how to use the calculator  , see my response related to PS pump in your original post at the other forum, no sense repeating it here, its been discussed on this forum a million times.



daniel1948 said:


> The car is comfortable and fun to drive. I am disappointed with the range, but I can live with it. If a 1,000-amp controller gives me a bit more acceleration and does not overheat, this will be a nice car, and well worth half what I paid for it.
> 
> Daniel


Absolutely, once you get a nice controller and drive it for a while, you will forget all the unpleasant parts and just enjoy your EV


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Today I was driving between 60 and 65 to Coeur d'Alene and back (50 miles round trip) and used 130 of my 200 amp-hours.


Hey Daniel,

Quick math says that equates to 375 whr/mile, at 60 to 65 mph. That seems darn good. Better than the 392 "around town" figure, which I thought to mean like 30 mph.

Regards,

major


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

major said:


> Hey Daniel,
> 
> Quick math says that equates to 375 whr/mile, at 60 to 65 mph. That seems darn good. Better than the 392 "around town" figure, which I thought to mean like 30 mph.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but around town I was not trying to conserve energy because range was not an issue, so I was accelerating kind of hard from the many stops.

You are the first person to comment that 375 wh/mi at 60 to 65 mph is good. Other folks seem to think it ought to be below 300. 

Daniel


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Yeah, but around town I was not trying to conserve energy because range was not an issue, so I was accelerating kind of hard from the many stops.
> 
> You are the first person to comment that 375 wh/mi at 60 to 65 mph is good. Other folks seem to think it ought to be below 300.
> 
> Daniel


Daniel,

after 50 mph exponential nature of the air drag becomes a very serious obstacle. Its not likely that you will see less than 300wh/mile at freeway speeds, you'd be lucky to stay under 400wh/mile.

In a convertible , its critical to close the top and windows for best air dynamics.

I tested my EV on a freeway yesterday, cruising at 75mph I was using 32kW of energy, which translates to 426 wh/mile. This was with all windows rolled up and no air conditioning.

Cruising at 65mph with windows rolled up I get about 370wh/mile.

Cruising at 60mph with windows down is about same as 70mph with windows up.

Hope this helps.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks Dimitry,

I cannot go faster than 70 mph, pedal to the floor. Some numbers I got, always with windows closed, usually with the moon roof cracked (the back edge tilts up):

Using a figure of 28 kWh for my pack:

60 mph: 400 wh/mi.
35-40 mph with occasional stops (surface roads outside of town): 343 wh/mi.
55 mph: 329 wh/mi.
60 to 70 mph: 435 wh/mi.
55 mph to CdA, 55 to 60 return: 345 wh/mi.

Then I realized my pack really holds 28.8 kWh, so using the revised figure for calculations from then on:

Around 58 mph to CdA, 60 to 65 return: 361 kwh/mi
Stop and go driving in town with some hard acceleration: 378 wh/mi.
Around 65 mph: 367 wh/mi.

Pushing it to 70 really puts a hit on the mpe (miles per electron) but keeping it between 60 and 65 it's not too shabby.

That very first freeway drive was considerably worse. Maybe because I was in 3rd gear instead of 4th. I'd been told the lower gear (higher rpm) was more efficient, but I think that was too high.

One hot day I ran the A/C and could not get the car over 62 or 63 mph. Fortunately, that kind of heat is not common here. I'd hate to spend a summer in Arizona. Once I spent a semester, January - March, I think, in Monterrey, Mexico. I don't want to do that again. 120 degrees for a few days, then 40 for a few days, back and forth.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Daniel,

our numbers are not that far off, the difference could be attributed to approximations and different instrumentation that you and I use.

Clearly your top speed and acceleration is limited by your controller, so once you address that, you will not have those issues. 

One thing I thought of is the tension on that belt you have across the AC, PS and 2 pulleys, does it have some sag if you pull it with your finger or is it really tight? This is the only thing I can think of to contribute to mechanical losses. I made my AC/PS belt as loose as I can get it without slipping. At first I had it too tight and I could feel that motor is struggling more than it should. After I loosened the tensioner it was much easier to turn. In fact, I can turn the motor by hand, by twisting the pulley on the rear shaft, can you do that with yours?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

One more thing, do you have your tachometer working? You do not want to over rev your Warp11  , so proper gear selection at freeway speeds is very important. When significantly over revved, these motors tend to self destruct in a very dramatic way, blowing metal chunks all over the road 

I think Warp9 is recommended 5000 RPM max , not sure about Warp11, maybe major can chime in and correct me here


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't know about the tensioner.

I do not have a tachometer. I am extremely upset that Paul did not install one. Also:

Paul told me that I cannot over-rev the motor as long as the car is in gear. He said it would not go fast enough to damage itself. He said it would self-limit. In both 3rd and 4th gear, the car would not go faster than 70 mph. The impression I got (but this is a feeling based on zero knowledge of this stuff) was that in 3rd gear the rpms were maxed out, while in 4th gear there was just no more power.

But I did that speed only twice: once in each gear for a long-ish freeway drive. Now I use 4th gear above about 40 mph. I've never had it in 5th.

I feel the lack of instrumentation is inexcusable, and I have no idea why Paul did not put in a tach, and temperature sensors, and a proper voltmeter across the entire pack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any progress with Paul?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Paul told me that I cannot over-rev the motor as long as the car is in gear.


Pardon my French, but that is utter bollocks!

At least one person in the forum managed to over-rev his motor by rolling downhill in a too low gear (first?) with the throttle in off and since he didn't have a tach as well, the motor eventually achieved enough RPM for the centrifugal power to tear apart the motor to scrap metal. It's possibly true that the motor can't over-rev by it's own power, but since there's no motor braking to speak of (like an ICE will) the car can easily accelerate by gravity alone to dangerous rpm's.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Paul told me that I cannot over-rev the motor as long as the car is in gear. He said it would not go fast enough to damage itself. He said it would self-limit. In both 3rd and 4th gear, the car would not go faster than 70 mph. The impression I got (but this is a feeling based on zero knowledge of this stuff) was that in 3rd gear the rpms were maxed out, while in 4th gear there was just no more power.
> 
> But I did that speed only twice: once in each gear for a long-ish freeway drive. Now I use 4th gear above about 40 mph. I've never had it in 5th.


That is not true, nothing prevents you from over-rev in lower gears if you keep pushing the throttle. I could easily over-rev my Miata in 1st and 2nd gears, although its harder in 3rd and pretty much impossible in 4th, I never used 5th either.

I did not have a tach in Miata, but I calculated safe top speeds for each gear, based on tire size and published gear ratios for Miata, then I marked those speeds on my speedometer, so I can see when I must shift up. If you have final gear ratios data for your Porsche and tire size, I can help figuring out safe top speeds for each gear for you.

In Protege I have working tach and its awesome, it really helps to gauge optimal cruising speed and keep the motor in its sweet spot for efficiency, yet safe from over-rev.

I think tach is a must for any professionally done conversion, as well as ammeter, voltmeter and SoC meter, and cell level BMS. If you can't see each individual cell at your fingertips, you have no idea what your entire pack is doing, creating a huge long term risk.

Its nice that you have a counter for total Wh in and out, but its not as important as knowing the state of each individual cell in your pack.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I think Warp9 is recommended 5000 RPM max , not sure about Warp11, maybe major can chime in and correct me here


I'd strive to keep it below 4500 RPM. A call to Warfield Electric would be in order to make sure. Also the installation of a tach or overspeed alarm/shutdown is a must.

Daniel started out by complaining about sluggish acceleration, I think. Sounds like maybe he's not using 1st or 2nd. Even with a 500 amp Cursit, he should accel good in low gear. But it would just take a few seconds to overspeed. You have to know RPM.

major


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any progress with Paul?


I left a message for him to call me. He hasn't yet. He's always been slow to return my calls, but eventually does.



dimitri said:


> That is not true, nothing prevents you from over-rev in lower gears if you keep pushing the throttle. I could easily over-rev my Miata in 1st and 2nd gears, although its harder in 3rd and pretty much impossible in 4th, I never used 5th either.


The first week I had the car, the battery importer, who was giving me a lot of advice when I could not reach Paul, asked me how fast it would go in each gear. He asked me to put it in second, and in third, and see how fast it would go pedal to the floor. In 3rd it went 70.

Then I put it in second and floored it, and when it hit sixty it squealed unpleasantly, and then I smelled a strong smell that I'd describe as burning rubber or insulation. I'm not good at identifying smells. I stopped, and looked in the back, and saw nothing obvious. I got back on the road, this time driving 50-ish in third.

I have had no further problems.

One person thought the controller was burning up. One person thought maybe the motor brushes were arcing. One person thought maybe it was just the belt, squealing as it rubbed, and getting hot.

I am careful about over-revving now. But Paul had told me categorically that as long as the car was in gear, I could not hurt it by giving it too much pedal.



dimitri said:


> Its nice that you have a counter for total Wh in and out, but its not as important as knowing the state of each individual cell in your pack


Two very different things. One is to maintain long-term health of the pack. The other is effectively a fuel gauge, so you don't run out.

*****

The other day I took the car in to the Porsche dealer to have the mismatched tire replaced and the loose A/C condenser fastened. What he found was very disturbing, and I am angry and upset. I have not talked to Paul since then. I am still hoping he will make good on all this, but the shoddy workmanship seems inexcusable:

1. The rims had been cut off the A/C condenser fans, so there was no way to fasten them in place other than plastic ties. One was hanging completely loose.

2. The A/C condensers themselves were just strapped into place with plastic ties, several of which had broken, so that one of them was hanging by one side.

3. The lug nuts on one wheel were loose.

4. The transmission bolts were loose and one was not tightened at all.

5. All the underbody panels were missing, so the entire underside of the car, including the contactors and wiring of the EV components are exposed to road debris and any water on the road.

6. A wiring harness running from front to back was hanging loose under the car.

The Porsche mechanic tightened all the loose bolts, removed the fans, fixed the A/C condensers in place temporarily, pending construction of brackets, and tied the wiring harness up away from the road. Of course I will be asking Paul to pay for all of this. I will not speculate on what he will say until I've talked to him. He's always been hard to reach, but eventually returns my calls.

I now feel that Paul owes me a 1000-amp controller and the labor to install it, as well as the cost of the labor of the other day and labor to permanently fix the stuff that was fastened temporarily. 

I took the car to the local EV club meeting last night and it was the hit of the evening. Several people told me it's the best EV anywhere around here. I gave rides to a few people, who were properly impressed. It's fun to drive and it's beautiful. A friend rode with me to the meeting and back, and his comment was "You're having way too much fun with this car." It takes corners and handles like the Porsche it is, even if all conventional cars beat it off the line. But I won't be able to recommend Paul for conversions unless he makes good on the shoddy workmanship.

I would think, also, that he should have included adequate instrumentation as a matter of course (tachometer and temperature gauges and perhaps battery monitors) but perhaps I should have specified that I wanted those things.

As I said, at present I am very upset, even though I am having fun driving the car.

A side note: When I drove my Zap Xebra I got a lot of attention. Kids would yell "cool car!" and people would give me the thumbs-up or take pictures as I drove past. Nobody notices the Porsche. Even with "ELECTRIC" in big letters on the back I've only got two or three looks from people, and only at the EV meeting have I encountered serious enthusiasm.

Daniel


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## customcircuits (Dec 21, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> I took the car to the local EV club meeting last night and it was the hit of the evening.
> Daniel


I can attest to that. Thanks for bringing it. Let us know if we can help you out.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The smell you describe sounds like what my motor does when under really heavy load, I don't think it's anything bad, though I could be wrong. The squeal you describe doesn't sound good, though I'm not sure what it could be.

The craftsmanship you describe on top of everything else is really troubling.
Such a shame.

I will disagree with some others on individual cell monitoring as I've been influenced by Jack Rickard. If you divide the pack in half and monitor both halves as long as they are in balance you are fine, if you see a discrepancy between the two halves then you know there is a problem and back off the throttle or investigate further if that doesn't fix it. This does assume you aren't experiencing constant cell problems. The way you have it now you have no idea what is happening to most of your pack, you could have one or more cells being over discharged and heading towards an early grave. It would be pretty easy to monitor it as I described and at least see if the pack halves are balanced.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

sorry to hear about your struggling relationship with your car's builder...can i ask if this "Paul" is from Florida? Does he do EV conversions? 

I heard that DC power systems is still making controllers, they make a 1200A model that John Wayland used in the white zombie for some time....you can get one here...

http://www.black-sheep.us/product_info.php?products_id=163

John's Blue Meanie Datsun...has a 9" ADC motor with a 1000A zilla

0-60 5.5sec (yours should be faster with the torque of an 11" and the wider tires in the back for traction although your 911 is probably more than 2500lbs....)

he also claims 25-30 miles on his 8kwh pack... (168V*47AH)

with your 28kwh you should be able to get closer 80 miles per 80% DOD...

you will have less voltage sag from your pack so thats why I am comparing your 144V to his 168V...

check out the links for all the details...but I would see about getting your hands on a DC power systems raptor or Zilla...everything else seems to be ready to go...

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/bluemeanie.php


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

UPDATE:

I found someone who will install a 2K Zilla in my car. Until and unless he gives me permission to post his name, I am not going to do so, but I am confident that he is supremely capable of doing it right. It will be another month before he has time to work on it, but I will post results once it's in.

The battery importer thinks my batteries can handle it, but the controller can be dialed down to a lower maximum amperage if necessary.

Two K may be overkill for my needs, but Zillas are so hard to find that I figured I'd better jump on this one when it was offered.

I am well aware that any time I actually use that available power I will be reducing my range. But within town, range is not an issue, so I'll be able to drive the car like the Porsche it is, even though for the trips to Coeur d'Alene I'll still have to drive slower than the speed limit to have sufficient range. I will have the power for merging safely, as long as I don't try to drive too fast, since the brief burst of power for merging only happens when getting on. If I lose 1/4 mile of range, or even one mile, from two brief hard accelerations, it will not be a problem.

Daniel


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

Congrats on finding a 2K Zilla, not an easy task at any price. I hope it didn't clean out your bank account. 

Do the EV community proud and smoke those tires whenever a punk kid pulls up next to you with his souped up rice rocket.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

+1 please report back with your performance/range results!!!

Maybe even invest in a gtech timer to actually get some documented performance results...

I think the combination of a Warp-11 and 2000Amps (Your batteries can take pulses of 10C) will make for a tire shredder for sure, the thing that helps you though is the wider rear tires of a 911 and an LSD which should both help to stick the power down to the road...

Maybe you could even invest in additional batteries packs and increase the voltage?? The Warps were just increased in their voltage rating to 192V i believe...that will help push out the rpm and power curve favorably...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> sorry to hear about your struggling relationship with your car's builder...can i ask if this "Paul" is from Florida? Does he do EV conversions?


Yup. When I heard about this guy a few years ago I had high hopes for his vehicles. Now, not so much.
http://www.electricporsche.net/
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/electric-conversions/638-conversions-florida.html


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Well I have been a member of another forum for awhile and on those forums "Paul" used to have a company called "Pauls Exotics" where he sold replica/rebodies of porsches, I think he's expanded with all types of products now per his website and I am not sure if the issues that haunted his company in the past are relevant now, although from the looks of the craftsmanship and lack of customer service Dan's had to deal with i presume nothings changed....

Dan, please let us know if Paul does make things right...

MODERATOR: I feel it might be a worthy investment for the community to have a section of the forum dedicated to warning people about experiences with certain EV related retailers, maybe it could a subsection of the section we already have for the vendors.

I say this because I believe that the community, we, would not like to see what happened to Dan, happen again, to anyone else..

your thoughts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could start a thread in the EV dealers section and it could be stickied right below the LIonEV thread.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You could start a thread in the EV dealers section and it could be stickied right below the LIonEV thread.


Great Idea. 

Dan when you get a chance do you think you could post a thread to document your interactions with your vendor in the EV dealer section of the forum, as JRP3 had mentioned.

You would be doing a great service to the community.

Thanks!


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Lordwacky said:


> Do the EV community proud and smoke those tires whenever a punk kid pulls up next to you with his souped up rice rocket.


I have lived in Spokane for 3 1/2 years now, and have yet to see any punk kids driving souped-up rice rockets. Sorry.

I did burn some rubber yesterday, though: I was doing the speed limit on the main thoroughfare between downtown and the Valley when some bozo in a pickup truck pulled out of a parking lot in front of a stopped bus, and right into my path blind. I hit the brakes, stopped literally two feet from the truck as it zoomed in front of me, and watched the black cloud rise up from under my car amid the smell of rubber. Spokane drivers are usually very decent. This guy was probably from somewhere else.



Bowser330 said:


> +1 please report back with your performance/range results!!!
> 
> Maybe even invest in a gtech timer to actually get some documented performance results...
> 
> ...


What's an LSD? (I presume you're not referring to Timothy Leary's drug of choice.  )

The only way to fit more batteries in this car would be to remove the back seats. I'd be willing to give up the seats, but it would be an enormous job. And a bundle of money for the batteries. 



Bowser330 said:


> Dan when you get a chance do you think you could post a thread to document your interactions with your vendor in the EV dealer section of the forum, as JRP3 had mentioned.


I will do that, but not until "the fat lady sings." This tale is only half done. I am going to give Paul a fair chance to make good before I trash him. He has a 20-year reputation for doing good work. Something (or a cascade of things) went wrong here. If he refuses to make good, I will tell the whole tale. And if he does make good, as I still hope he will do, I will tell the tale of someone who made some mistakes but stood by his promises.

I don't yet know which it will be.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> I have lived in Spokane for 3 1/2 years now, and have yet to see any punk kids driving souped-up rice rockets. Sorry.
> 
> I did burn some rubber yesterday, though: I was doing the speed limit on the main thoroughfare between downtown and the Valley when some bozo in a pickup truck pulled out of a parking lot in front of a stopped bus, and right into my path blind. I hit the brakes, stopped literally two feet from the truck as it zoomed in front of me, and watched the black cloud rise up from under my car amid the smell of rubber. Spokane drivers are usually very decent. This guy was probably from somewhere else.
> 
> ...


I guess the incident could have been a lot worse...glad everything was ok...

LSD = Limited Slip Differential, essentially it ensures that both drive wheels are turning together. In cars without LSDs, high torque loads (ahem Warp 11) can break loose one wheel more than the other. the LSD ensures both will break loose together, thus sticking to the ground quicker, creating less lost power... although it will put more strain on your driveline...

I am sure a 911 6 speed is pretty strong, but you may want to look into a clutch upgrade, warp 11 with 1000A @ low rpm is for sure more torque than Porsche 3.4/6 flat six...

I wonder how a 911 C4 (awd) would respond with all that torque surging through all 4 tires?? hmmm....


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> ... you may want to look into a clutch upgrade, warp 11 with 1000A @ low rpm is for sure more torque than Porsche 3.4/6 flat six...


I don't have a clutch. Paul said there is a rubber thingy between the motor and the transmission. I think he said that was supposed to absorb the shock of the motor torque, but I am very vague on that.

Any time my wheels start breaking loose I'll know I'm pressing too hard on the pedal. I want power for merging, but I have no interest in racing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> I don't have a clutch. Paul said there is a rubber thingy between the motor and the transmission. I think he said that was supposed to absorb the shock of the motor torque, but I am very vague on that.


Oh no, I hope that's not a lovejoy coupler. They have been known to fail under load from an electric motor and are generally frowned upon in conversions. A clutch less setup should use either solid hub coupling or a coupler using the clutch center hub and springs.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Oh no, I hope that's not a lovejoy coupler.


It probably is. I don't actually know. When I have the Zilla installed, I will ask the guy to check, and make it right, if he's willing to do the extra work. At $100/hour shop time, he might be willing, but he's very busy with his own work, so he might limit how much time he's willing to put on my car.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

UPDATE: I had a long phone conversation with Paul, during which I raised, and we discussed, all my concerns:

1. The shoddy way the A/C condensers & their fans were fastened in front.

He expressed surprise. He said that the straps he used were extremely strong, and are used in race cars, and he could not imagine how they had broken. He insisted that the fans were originally held in place with plastic clips, and that his straps were stronger. He had nothing to say about the fact that the rims or frames of the fans had been cut off.

But he agreed to pay for the work to put all of this right.

2. The loose lug nuts on one wheel and loose transmission mounting, including one bolt not tightened at all.

Again, he was surprised, and said he would strengthen his procedures for checking such things in future.

He agreed to pay for the work of fixing this as well.

3. The missing underbody panels.

Again, he expressed surprise. He wondered if they could have been removed en route, but I said I thought this was vanishingly unlikely, and he agreed to replace them. He said he would either find my panels, if they are still in his shop, or get others used, and ship them to me. I insisted that if he gets used ones, they must be in perfect condition, because my car was impeccably cared for, and anything less would not be acceptable.

4. The controller. Our contract specified a 1,000-amp controller. He substituted a 500-amp Curtis controller when the Logisystems controllers were having problems. I found a guy locally willing to sell me and install a 2K Zilla. I asked Paul to pay for half of that, since it's twice the size of the one we contracted. I also do not believe that a 1,000-amp controller would have given the car the promised performance.

Paul replied that our contract was not for a Zilla, which is a lot more expensive than a Logisystems for the same amperage. He offered instead to either send me a Logisystems 1000-amp controller or send me the money one would cost, in return for the return of the Curtis. I had to agree that our contract was for a 1000-amp controller, not a Zilla, and I accepted his offer to send me the money a Logisystems controller would cost. I'll pay the balance myself for the 2K Zilla, which is a lot more, but a lot better, than what the car would have had under our contract.

5. The contract promised "approx. 125 miles range." I extrapolate 80 miles range to dead empty driving gently, based on my wh used. 125 miles of range would require half again more batteries than I have. Installing these batteries would require removing the back seats, and while I'd be willing to lose the back seats, the job appears daunting. So I asked Paul to refund me half of what I paid him for batteries in compensation for the failure to achieve the promised range.

He replied that this was the first late model (i.e. heavier than 1970's-era) Porsche to ever get LiFePO4 batteries, and was therefore "experimental" and the contract had mentioned only an approximate range, not a promised range. I replied that as the builder, he had made representations to me on both range and acceleration, and that the actual car did not come anywhere close to either. I said that as the builder, he should have known what the car would do, or else told me clearly that he did not really know, because I would not have paid what I did for the car if he had told me that the range would be "something between 80 and 125 miles." I also reminded him here that I had told him very clearly that one of the big reasons I paid extra for a late-model donor car, rather than saving money by selecting an older one, was that I wanted the safety features: air bags, ABS, and stability control. He never told me that I would lose the ABS and stability control in the conversion. I am quite sure that he simply didn't know. But he never told me that he had never conveed a late-model Porsche before. All his prior experience was with older cars. So he was not entirely open with me. And as a result I entered into a project that I would not have, at that price, had I known that there were so many unknowns.

He said that he could not refund me the money I was asking for batteries/range.

The phone call was getting long, both of us had other things to do, and we agreed to end the phone call without having yet resolved the issue of batteries and range. I made it clear that I was not satisfied, but that I was willing to put off further discussion until a later time.

I paid him $36,000 for the battery pack. I asked him for $18,000 back, due to failure to achieve the promised range. I now believe that he charged me far more than the pack was actually worth, but at the time of the contract, I was paying for range, not for a set number of batteries. Therefore I feel he owes me $18,000. He says he does not because we agreed what I'd pay for batteries, and the 125 miles range was an approximation, not a promise. I feel that 80 miles is not "approximately" 125.

So this issue remains unresolved.

All in all, I would describe the conversation as strained but cordial. We ended by agreeing that we share a committment to electric vehicles, and we'd both like to find amicable solutions and remain friends. He agreed to pay for fixing the mechanical issues and we agreed about the controller. Only the battery/range issue remains unresolved.

The Zilla should get put in next month, and I'll report on the results.

Daniel


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Overall that's pretty good news as I was afraid he might not be willing to give you anything. He seems to be pretty reasonable on most points, except the battery pack. I don't remember when the pack was purchased, but the going rate now is around .35 cents per watt hour, which would put your 28.8kwh pack at about $11,000. So it seems he grossly overcharged for the pack and it significantly under performs. Maybe prices were higher when he bought them, and maybe the HiPower cells were more expensive than TS or SE cells, but he still owes you something. The fact that he basically sold a product with no idea how it would perform doesn't say anything good about his business.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Overall that's pretty good news as I was afraid he might not be willing to give you anything. He seems to be pretty reasonable on most points, except the battery pack. I don't remember when the pack was purchased, but the going rate now is around .35 cents per watt hour, which would put your 28.8kwh pack at about $11,000. So it seems he grossly overcharged for the pack and it significantly under performs. Maybe prices were higher when he bought them, and maybe the HiPower cells were more expensive than TS or SE cells, but he still owes you something. The fact that he basically sold a product with no idea how it would perform doesn't say anything good about his business.


Richard says his current prices (lower than a year ago when Paul began work on my car) are $2 per ah. The cells are 100 ah @ nominal 3 v so $200 each. That would be 300 wh or 67 cents per wh, but includes the charger with integrated BMS. And Richard says he pays extra to have the cells matched at the factory. Richard also says the HiPower are better than the other brands, but I have no idea.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

It's good to hear you made some progress. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the success or failure of the conversion company.

I have used zip ties to hold on a brake fluid reservoir, fender liners, brake ducts, an exhaust bracket, etc. I have only had one ever fail, and that was when I foolishly was trying to suspend a 60 lb part with a single zip tie (I should have known better, the zip tie lost its grip before I could get zip tie #2 on). I don't use them in a hot or chafing location or for heavy items. I have even replaced perfectly good bolts with zip ties where the backside was hard to reach.

You should do the coastdown measurements mentioned on http://www.teslamotorsclub.com . There is a chance something is dragging on your car -- to be fair I think you should check with some coastdowns to be sure that is not something that might be eating range. For instance, John Wayland's Blue Meanie is 2500 lbs, but he claims just 160 Whr/mile for it, way better than you have measured so far.

As a practical matter, it is going to be hard to find underbody panels that are in cosmetically perfect shape (or maybe you meant just functionally perfect?). I would definitely want them, though, as they'll help protect the underside and might improve the aero.

The controller thing is very good news, you'll be much happier with a Zilla.



daniel1948 said:


> UPDATE: I had a long phone conversation with Paul, during which I raised, and we discussed, all my concerns:
> 
> 1. The shoddy way the A/C condensers & their fans were fastened in front.
> 
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> It's good to hear you made some progress. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the success or failure of the conversion company.
> 
> I have used zip ties to hold on a brake fluid reservoir, fender liners, brake ducts, an exhaust bracket, etc. I have only had one ever fail, and that was when I foolishly was trying to suspend a 60 lb part with a single zip tie (I should have known better, the zip tie lost its grip before I could get zip tie #2 on). I don't use them in a hot or chafing location or for heavy items. I have even replaced perfectly good bolts with zip ties where the backside was hard to reach.
> 
> ...


David, please help me understand the 160wh/mile...what driving speed are you using?

Per the plasmaboyracing website the Blue Meaning claims 25-30 miles on the 8kw pack, that equals 267-320wh/mile...that sounds a bit more conventional to DC type conversions...However the lightweight blue meanie is at least several hundred pounds lighter than Porsche..But which is more aerodynamic?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

267 to 320 Whr/mile would assume he runs the 8 kWhr pack all the way flat -- the number are consistent if he runs the pack down 50% to 60%.

He claims 160 Whr/mile on his web site for Blue Meanie, http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=98 , and 180 Whr/mile for his White Zombie race car. He doesn't say what speed for Blue Meanie, but does say 45 mph for White Zombie. It's just one data point, but Daniel's nearly 400 Whr/mile seems high (or it could be a function of the hills, winds, traffic, etc. of his driving route).

I think Blue Meanie is about 2700 lbs (with driver) and Daniel's Porsche is about 3700 lbs (with driver). Worst case, throw out aero and just do weight difference, the Porsche would use about 37% more Whr/mile. Since the newer Porsche certainly has better aero, that would make the number < 37%.

Anyway, I realize Wayland's numbers represent about the best one could hope to do and don't mean to paint them as typical, but as food for thought that Daniel's numbers might be high.


Bowser330 said:


> David, please help me understand the 160wh/mile...what driving speed are you using?
> 
> Per the plasmaboyracing website the Blue Meaning claims 25-30 miles on the 8kw pack, that equals 267-320wh/mile...that sounds a bit more conventional to DC type conversions...However the lightweight blue meanie is at least several hundred pounds lighter than Porsche..But which is more aerodynamic?


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

I had my car weighed at a truck stop. Without me in it (I had to get out to press the call button) it weighed 3,540 lbs, which means that with me in it it would weigh 3,700.

I plan to do the coastdown measurement, but I found that traffic made it impractical in town, so I'll have to go out to one of the rural roads to do it.

As for my FE:

400 wh/mi was 60 mph in 3rd gear. I think it was very windy that day, because...
340 wh/mi at 55 mph
378 wh/mi in town, plenty of stops, with hard acceleration because in town I didn't care about range.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

All these Wh/mile number comparisons mean squat unless you use identical ways to measure it in both cases being compared.

For example, I measure WH/mile on my EV by watching battery current at a given *cruising speed on flat road*, then calculate Wh/mile based on that. However, that doesn't account for more energy used during acceleration, energy saved for coasting, energy wasted for braking, etc. _This is just a hypothetical measure used to compare with other cars which also use the same measuring technique_.

I believe Daniel stated his measuring technique to be very diffirent from mine. He is actually measuring amount of energy depleted from battery and number of miles traveled during that time. This is much more practical and accurate measuring, but requires an instrumet ( Wh meter ) which most of EV conversions do not have ( who wants to spend extra few $100's, right? )

His measuring will capture all the inefficiencies of start/go traffic, hills, heavy accelerations, etc. , none of which are measured by the other method.

My point is that comparing numbers is only relevant if you got those numbers using equal measuring methods.....

Based on my own EV experience I personally think that Daniel's Porsche is fine as far as Wh/mile. He may have a little drag from that belt system if its too tight, but even that is negligible in overall grand scheme of things, IMHO.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

It seems John W. is measuring how many AHs he charged back into the pack to calculate how the wh/mile, yet another method...


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

dimitri said:


> I believe Daniel stated his measuring technique to be very diffirent from mine. He is actually measuring amount of energy depleted from battery and number of miles traveled during that time.


This is correct. My only instrumentation is an e-meter, which shows me any one at a time of the following: Amps, total ah used, voltage. (There are also a couple other choices, which I never use because they are useless to me.) Since the meter runs both ways, I can also see amps during charging, and how full the pack has gotten during charging. So, as you said, I take the total ah used during a trip, divide by the total ah of my pack (200), multiply that fraction by 28,800 (the size of my pack in wh) and then divide by miles driven.



Bowser330 said:


> It seems John W. is measuring how many AHs he charged back into the pack to calculate how the wh/mile, yet another method...


This is what I used to do with my Xebra, since I had a Kill-a-Watt meter at the wall, but no ammeter or ah meter in the car. This method, of course, makes it seem that the car is using more energy, since it includes energy dissipated by the charger. Using this method would make it seem that my Porsche was using more energy. And in fact, this would be a more legitimate figure, since charger inefficiency is part of the overall energy cost of operating the car. But I have no way of measuring this now, as my K-a-W meter is 120 volts and a maximum of 15 amps. The electrician could measure my current draw, but it would cost me a few hundred dollars for the house call.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> ... But I have no way of measuring this now, as my K-a-W meter is 120 volts and a maximum of 15 amps. The electrician could measure my current draw, but it would cost me a few hundred dollars for the house call.


Check out this very reasonable clamp ammeter from Sears, of all places, that is nearly as accurate as my $350 Fluke... 

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...hop&sName=Multi-Meters,+Testers+&+Accessories

Only $60 but it still does both AC and DC current.

Cheaper than a house call, and infinitely useful for any EV.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> I take the total ah used during a trip, divide by the total ah of my pack (200), multiply that fraction by 28,800 (the size of my pack in wh) and then divide by miles driven.


Or you could just multiply AH used by 144V of your pack voltage and divide by miles


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Check out this very reasonable clamp ammeter from Sears, of all places, that is nearly as accurate as my $350 Fluke...
> 
> http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...hop&sName=Multi-Meters,+Testers+&+Accessories
> 
> ...


Looks interesting, but it's necessary to place the clamp around a single wire. I would have to tear into the car (something I don't feel competent to do) to get at a wire. Otherwise I just have the extension cord that goes from the wall to the car.


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## customcircuits (Dec 21, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Looks interesting, but it's necessary to place the clamp around a single wire. I would have to tear into the car (something I don't feel competent to do) to get at a wire. Otherwise I just have the extension cord that goes from the wall to the car.


You might just want to remove a small section of insulation on your extension cord and measure it there.

Another option is to use your home's main power meter. For example, you can figure out what your home's nominal power draw is at night and then plug your car in to determine the difference. In the morning you can calculate how much your car pulled.


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## Lordwacky (Jan 28, 2009)

daniel1948 said:


> Looks interesting, but it's necessary to place the clamp around a single wire. I would have to tear into the car (something I don't feel competent to do) to get at a wire. Otherwise I just have the extension cord that goes from the wall to the car.


you can get a surplus kWhr meter off ebay, the kind that are on the side of your house. Plug it into the wall and then plug the extension cord into it. It relatively easy to do and should be able to do it for about $50 - $100. It will require minor diy to get it setup, or you could ask your Electrician to rig it up for you. I don't know if any of those meters can tell you how many amps you are pulling at anyone time, but it will tell you how much energy you pulled from the wall, which is what you really want anyway.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Here's a Porsche similar to Daniel's that has similar Whr/mile (350):

http://www.evalbum.com/2716

Some of the older 911 Porsches on evalbum I calculated to be ~250 to 280 Whr/mile (going down 80% depth-of-discharge), but they also tend to be lighter.

So maybe Daniel's numbers are right in the ball park, but I'd still encourage the coastdown tests to make sure it is rolling freely.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Here's a Porsche similar to Daniel's that has similar Whr/mile (350):
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/2716


Wow, check out his 0-60 estimate, compared to Daniels 30+ seconds. And he's hauling around lead as well. Daniel should be doing better, with the right controller of course.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Here's a Porsche similar to Daniel's that has similar Whr/mile (350):
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/2716
> 
> ...


The description says 2 + 2 adults. I'm sure it's basically the same body as mine. I managed to crawl into the back seat of mine, and then I almost could not get back out. Calling this car 2 + 2 adults is really stretching a point. I'd say 2 adults + 2 contortionist midgets. I've seen people in Cirque du Soleil who could get in and out of my back seats. But I'd discourage anybody else from trying.

I still plan on doing the coastdown test.

Daniel


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Wow, check out his 0-60 estimate, compared to Daniels 30+ seconds. And he's hauling around lead as well. Daniel should be doing better, with the right controller of course.


He's hauling lead, but with only 30 miles of range. So maybe not much heavier than mine. Also, lead has lower impedance, so it can deliver more amps, and he has 264 volts, compared to my 144. I look forward to getting decent acceleration when I have a 2K controller, which is what he has, but I think lead is always going to give you more zip. For me, range was more important than zip.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

It turns out you can optimize a battery for power or for energy storage. It happens the 264V Porsche has lead acid batteries optimized for power, and your batteries are probably more optimized for energy (range). You can get lead acid batteries that are terrible for power (gel cells, for instance), but give a bit more energy and longer life. You can also get lithiums that put out screaming amounts of power (A123 systems used by the killacycle) -- I think you should upgrade to these when this battery set wears out  .


daniel1948 said:


> He's hauling lead, but with only 30 miles of range. So maybe not much heavier than mine. Also, lead has lower impedance, so it can deliver more amps, and he has 264 volts, compared to my 144. I look forward to getting decent acceleration when I have a 2K controller, which is what he has, but I think lead is always going to give you more zip. For me, range was more important than zip.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Your pack can do at least 10C momentary, which would be 2000 amps. Your pack should not be holding you back even with the Z2K, which can only do 2000 amps for a short period itself. The Odyssey PC1500 he is using can do 1500 amps for 5 seconds, and at 49lbs each that's almost 1100lbs of lead.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Wow, check out his 0-60 estimate, compared to Daniels 30+ seconds. And he's hauling around lead as well. Daniel should be doing better, with the right controller of course.


I wonder what the amp draw is on full acceleration, do you think hes pulling 2000 amps when he got that sub 5 sec 0-60??? probably not right?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably not, I don't think the batteries are capable of it.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Probably not, I don't think the batteries are capable of it.



http://www.evalbum.com/2147

1966 Porsche 912 conversion...only 2600lbs with lead acid batteries..

2003 Porsche 996 conversion is around 3600lbs with lithium...

Where is all that weight? 

Is it possible to get a 996 down to 2600lbs with lithium?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Also, lead has lower impedance, so it can deliver more amps, [...] but I think lead is always going to give you more zip.


This surely can't be correct? According to the data I've seen from our controller when it's been tested with different chemistry the voltage drop for Lead is horrible where Lithium keeps it up much better. Also, the White Zombie managed to shave off over half a second on it's 0-60 mph-time when they changed Lead for Lithium.

And, of course, at low RPM's it's more or less entirely the controller that will limit the power since the battery current is comparatively low until the Voltage over the motor starts to build up.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

C'mon guys, all those numbers on that Porsche are guesstimates, take it with a grain of salt.

He says "rough count" and "estimate" , which basically means it could be 5 seconds or it could be 10, who knows 

As for juice from the battery, Lithium beats Lead, but only when you compare apples to apples, i.e. similar AH ratings. Surely a 260AH 6V golf cart battery can beat 60AH or even 90AH LiFePo4 cell, but its not a fair comparison.

One thing for sure, when Daniel gets his Zilla, he will beat this guy's Lead Sled hands down, both range and performance, no doubt in my mind


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evalbum.com/2147
> 
> 1966 Porsche 912 conversion...only 2600lbs with lead acid batteries..
> 
> ...


The 912 started out at 2030 lbs before the conversion, the 996 in stock form is almost 1000 lbs more.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The 912 started out at 2030 lbs before the conversion, the 996 in stock form is almost 1000 lbs more.


Where is that 1000lbs coming from?

Power options? doors? windows? seats? These can be removed...
More electrical components? Can they be removed? ex: cruise control?
Sound deadening material? This can be reduced/removed
Heavier overall basic frame? By how much I wonder??

Qer, cant wait for your camps controller...the high constant amp output will definately be a performance addition many are not used too...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Point is they are two completely different vehicles, one being from 1966 and the other from 2003, even though they share the same manufacturer. You aren't going to strip 1000lbs from a vehicle. If you want a light vehicle start with a light vehicle.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Qer, cant wait for your camps controller...the high constant amp output will definately be a performance addition many are not used too...


Heh. Working on it, promise.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Qer said:


> This surely can't be correct? According to the data I've seen from our controller when it's been tested with different chemistry the voltage drop for Lead is horrible where Lithium keeps it up much better. Also, the White Zombie managed to shave off over half a second on it's 0-60 mph-time when they changed Lead for Lithium.


This is not apples to apples, it's not even fruit to fruit, it's more like comparing dogs to cats but:

My Xebra with 84 volts and IIRC 130 ah (7 PowerSonic AGMs) would keep up with the general flow of traffic. But the same car with 72 volts, 100 ah, LiFePO4 just crawls away from a stop, and the voltage drops way down when I floor it.



Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evalbum.com/2147
> 
> 1966 Porsche 912 conversion...only 2600lbs with lead acid batteries..
> 
> ...





Bowser330 said:


> Where is that 1000lbs coming from?
> 
> Power options? doors? windows? seats? These can be removed...
> More electrical components? Can they be removed? ex: cruise control?
> ...


I actually prefer the looks of the older Porsches, and someone told me the newer Porsches have gone back to that look. But my goal was not maximum acceleration. I wanted a fun, comfortable, attractive car that I could take on the freeway and drive 100 miles without stressing the batteries (i.e. 125 miles total range) and that would have all the safety features of modern cars.

I wanted the nicest EV I could get, not the most powerful or the fastest.

With a newer car comes more weight. I would imagine it's got more things on it, and the things the 1970's-era car had are made of heavier stuff in the 2000's-era car.



> _Google translate doesn't handle Swedish slang very well..._


Computer translation programs are, IMHO utterly worthless. I speak Spanish and have seen some Spanish/English translations, and it is really hard to figure out what the original was supposed to be saying, until you actually read the original.

UPDATE:

I took it in today to have the wheels aligned. The Porsche dealer did the best he could but it was not possible to bring alignment into specs, because of the weight distribution: All that weight in the front is incompatible with the geometry of the car, which was designed for weight in the rear. The dealer did the best he could, and the car handles great, but putting those batteries in the front does throw the alignment out.

FWIW, he did tell me it would improve things if I replaced the back seats with batteries. Theoretically, that could happen at some point, and the car would certainly perform better with 50% more batteries, say 216 volts and 200 ah. But it would be a BIG project in both cost and labor. I'd probably do it if I had someone I could really trust to do the work and do it right. But I'm not sure I'd be willing to part with the car for another unknown number of months if I had to send it out of town.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> My Xebra with 84 volts and IIRC 130 ah (7 PowerSonic AGMs) would keep up with the general flow of traffic. But the same car with 72 volts, 100 ah, LiFePO4 just crawls away from a stop, and the voltage drops way down when I floor it.


I'd think the lower starting voltage was hurting the acceleration, lower voltage means higher amp draw, which pulls the voltage down more, etc. Don't know what the controller was capable of, or what type of lithium you had, but again, most 100ah lithium should be capable of 300 amp continuous and 1000 surge.



> I took it in today to have the wheels aligned. The Porsche dealer did the best he could but it was not possible to bring alignment into specs, because of the weight distribution: All that weight in the front is incompatible with the geometry of the car, which was designed for weight in the rear. The dealer did the best he could, and the car handles great, but putting those batteries in the front does throw the alignment out.


I suppose you could add stiffer springs to compensate for the added weight. Don't know if it would be worth it.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'd think the lower starting voltage was hurting the acceleration, lower voltage means higher amp draw, which pulls the voltage down more, etc. Don't know what the controller was capable of, or what type of lithium you had, but again, most 100ah lithium should be capable of 300 amp continuous and 1000 surge.


Not to mention that that Lithium pack can't weight even close to that Lead-acid pack so maybe it's more fair to compare zip/kg rather than zip/Ah or zip/V. Ie, stuff the car with the same kilos of Lithium that it before had Lead-acid and I think there will be zip enough.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'd think the lower starting voltage was hurting the acceleration, lower voltage means higher amp draw, which pulls the voltage down more, etc. Don't know what the controller was capable of, or what type of lithium you had, but again, most 100ah lithium should be capable of 300 amp continuous and 1000 surge.


The batteries I have in the Xebra look, externally, identical to the ones in the Porsche, and the cells in both cases are 100 ah, 3 v nominal. So I presume they have the same C rating: 1C continuous, 3C peak, 10C spike. I was just saying that the voltage seems to drop pretty low.

But there's no doubt that if I had double the batteries the Xebra would do better.



Qer said:


> Not to mention that that Lithium pack can't weight even close to that Lead-acid pack so maybe it's more fair to compare zip/kg rather than zip/Ah or zip/V. Ie, stuff the car with the same kilos of Lithium that it before had Lead-acid and I think there will be zip enough.


I think the Xebra went from 700 lbs of lead to 200 lbs of lithium. But physically, there would not have been space for 700 lbs of lithium. maybe in a Xebra PK, but not in my Xebra SD. Kg for Kg, lithium has more energy, but cubic foot for cubic foot, I'll bet lead can deliver more wattage.

Right now the Porsche is at the body shop having a scratch removed. Paul scratched it accidentally and is paying for the repair. It will be there all day, even though it's a tiny scratch, due to the time needed for "curing and such."

Daniel


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> The batteries I have in the Xebra look, externally, identical to the ones in the Porsche, and the cells in both cases are 100 ah, 3 v nominal. So I presume they have the same C rating: 1C continuous, 3C peak, 10C spike. I was just saying that the voltage seems to drop pretty low.


Something doesn't seem right here. LiFePO4 is usually 3.2 nominal and should be charged to 3.6-3.8, maybe the Xebra charger isn't charging the cells fully? Or maybe the HiPower cells aren't as good as TS? I can't imagine that a Xebra controller is pulling so much current from the batteries that the voltage is sagging that much. Lithium is supposed to be stiffer than lead, not weaker.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Something definitely isn't right in that Xebra. Maybe controller sees lower voltage and goes into some protective limp mode, since its expecting 84 volts, not 72. Or perhaps charging isn't right, we don't have much details here of how Xebra got its new battery. Why 72V? Why not put enough cells in there to match original voltage? And how was the charging profile changed? Was the charger replaced completely?

That Xebra should be leaping with Lithium, not crawling


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

I may be misstating the specs, as I do not understand batteries. (I do understand basic electricity.) But the Xebra actually was built for 72 volts nominal (six 12-volt lead batteries). Mine has the Curtis 500-amp controller (the same controller in both my cars). Stock was an Altrax.

The battery pack for the Xebra was imported by EWI, who is a Xebra dealer, and it was installed by Sean Rarey of Grants Pass Electric Vehicles. It came with its own charger and integrated BMS, which also looks outwardly identical to the chargers in my Porsche. EWI was importing the 72-v (?) packs for the Xebra, along with the chargers, and we learned from the performance of mine that it would have done better with a few more cells, but at that time, such a pack was not available, or not known in the Xebra community. Mine was only the second Xebra to get LiFePO4, after Larry's (of EWI, the importer). Sean had set the charger for 480 amps maximum with the lead batteries, but found it necessary to dial it down to 380 IIRC, with the lithium pack. So I had lower nominal voltage, and lower maximum amperage after the battery switch. (I switched because after 6 months of driving, my lead batteries were going bad, and I decided I did not want to use lead.) (I was using PowerSonic AGMs, which the Xebra community has now learned provide excellent performance but poor life.)

As far as the actual voltages on my Porsche's batteries, right now, after charging yesterday afternoon & evening, and then sitting overnight, they are at 3.44 volts. I think that after driving a little, they generally sit at around 3.28 no-load, and I've seen them go as low as 2.87 under hard load. The importer (not the same guy who imported my Xebra's batteries) told me the low-voltage cut-off under load is 2.8.

I have been calling them 3-volt nominal because there are 48 pairs of cells and they've been referring to my pack as 144 volts. Also, they told me they are 100 ah cells and my pack is 28 kWh. If I use the firgure of 3 volts, I come up with 28.8 kWh.

I repeat that I do not understand batteries. So everything I've said should be taken with some salt. I've just this moment emailed the battery importer and asked if he has a spec sheet on the batteries. If he sends me one, I'll post it here.

Daniel


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Daniel,

you are close to the truth. LiFePo4 cells are nominal 3.2V, not 3V. So your pack of 48 series connected pairs of 100Ah is a 48S2P config, making it a total of 153V 200Ah pack, or total of 30.6 kWh with 100% DoD , or 24.5kWh with 80% DoD.

Calling your pack 144V is wrong. Usually 45 cell packs are referred to as 144V, but the difference is not very significant, not enough to point fingers at 

3.2V-3.3V is perfectly normal over discharge period without heavy load ( that's where nominal figure comes from ) and sagging to 2.6V-2.8V under heavy load is normal. As long as they bounce back to over 2.8V after load is removed, you are OK.

Sounds like a good job on Xebra upgrade, although you probably mistaken current limit on controller, not charger, charger never goes that high 

Does Xebra have gears? Sounds like motor doesn't get enough current from the controller for good acceleration, maybe its dialed down too much and 380 amps are not enough to accelerate, how heavy is Xebra?

380 limit on battery side makes sense to protect 100Ah pack from going over 4C load, but if the limit is on the motor side of the controller, that may explain why its sluggish.

Of course it all depends on motor specs and vehicle weight and gearing. 

Hope this helps.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

If I were you, I would ask them to dial Curtis on Xebra back to max current and ramp up rates, at the risk of potentially overloading the pack, but since you are advanced EV user  you can just watch the ammeter and the throttle and not let it go too high, but it will give you much better acceleration.

Remember, during start acceleration at low RPM high current is only on a motor side of the controller, not the battery ( because of the voltage drop on the motor at low RPMs ), so battery is not stressed even if motor is at 500 Amps ( Curtis max limit ).

You need to know if ammeter on Xebra ( I assume it has one at all ) is on battery side or motor side of the controller. It's better if its on battery side, so you can watch the battery usage, which is more important for you.

Hope this helps.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Sean Rarey of Grants Pass Electric Vehicles is the one who installed the LiFePO4 pack on my Xebra, and also is the dealer who sold me the Xebra. I trust him very highly. When he installed the lithium pack he did a lot of experimenting and found that it (I'm not exactly sure which component "it" is) would cut out if the controller was set higher. It's the Curtis controller that's set to 380. I don't know if that's on the motor side or the battery side, but I presumed it was on the motor side -- I have no idea what I'm talking about there.

MY MISTAKE: TYPO: You are correct, it is the controller, not the charger that's set to 380 amps. The charger is 110 v 25 a, though I've never actually measured the amperage.

The Xebra comes with no instrumentation but a voltmeter on the pack. I now have an ammeter also, which Sean installed with the Li pack. A lot of people are installing PakTrakrs on them, due to widespread problems with the lead batteries. 

The Xebra claims on the VIN tag to weigh 2,100 lbs. I don't know what mine weighs with its present battery pack. It has a very small DC motor (5 hp? not sure) and direct drive. No transmission. Reverse just runs the motor backwards. It's a fun little car, not very well constructed, but has given me reliable transportation up to 30-odd miles for two years now, until I got the Porsche just recently. It gets a LOT of attention, and kids love it. I thought they liked it because it's electric, but now I think it's the fact that it has three wheels.

It only goes 35 mph (with lead batteries at 84 v it would go 40) and has very little acceleration and is very weak on hills, but for anyone who can accept the speed limitation and the range, it's a great commuter. Zap has a bad reputation, probably deserved, but they also deserve credit for bringing this car to the U.S. when there are so few other options.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They dialed back the amperage of the Curtis because it was pulling the pack voltage down to the lower cutoff level of the Curtis I guess. With no transmission you are probably pulling high current at low speeds. I would like to know what the pack is being charged to, and how many cells you have. 22 cells at 3.2 nominal is 70.4 volts, fully charged to 3.8 it's 83.6, so you should probably be at least 80 volts off the charger with 22 cells.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

If Xebra was built with 6 12V batteries for nominal 72V, then apples to apples conversion to LiFePo4 should have used 24 cells for 76V nominal and set the charger to stop at 3.6V x 24 = 86V. This way controller gets similar voltage range from the battery and doesn't have to be dialed down to avoid LVC protection.

If your Xebra has less than 24 cells, then your best bet is to upgrade to 24 cells to match OEM performance.

As for motor, if it sucks up to 400 amps up to 72V, then it goes up to 38HP , which is not unreasonable for 2100 lb car, right?

Single gear definitely explains bad acceleration with dialed down controller, mystery solved 

Anyone else finds it ironic that Daniel has same bottleneck on both EVs?


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

The Zebra has 24 cells. It has two volt meters, which give different numbers. Offhand, I forget the numbers. I have not driven it since the Porsche arrived. They have the same controller, which is probably adequate for the Xebra, but not for the Porsche. I look forward to posting numbers for the Porsche after it gets the 2K Zilla.

I never wanted to have to know about the innards of either car, any more than I know the innards of a stinker. I just wanted to drive electric.  

Daniel


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## honn1002 (Nov 26, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> The Zebra has 24 cells. It has two volt meters, which give different numbers. Offhand, I forget the numbers. I have not driven it since the Porsche arrived. They have the same controller, which is probably adequate for the Xebra, but not for the Porsche. I look forward to posting numbers for the Porsche after it gets the 2K Zilla.
> 
> I never wanted to have to know about the innards of either car, any more than I know the innards of a stinker. I just wanted to drive electric.
> 
> Daniel


Daniel, You said the Xebra has the same controller like the Porsche I believe the model is 1231C-8601 which has the undervoltage cutback at 64V. If your Xebra is using the same model that is the problem. Or it could be the LiFePO4 pack you use in the Xebra has BMS built in. Most built in BMS from China has a max discharge amp rating. May be that's the reason your dealer had to dial down the current limit on the Curtis controller.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

please remind us when the Zilla 2K install is and how it turns out...


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

The Zilla install happens the second week of July, while I am out of town, if there are no problems. If there are problems, I'm hopeful it will happen by the end of July.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Just thought I would share this link with everyone...

This Paul Liddy, is the same Paul that Daniel worked with for his 996EV....

http://www.wpbf.com/news/14980555/detail.html (video in top right corner)

Just in case anyone was wondering.....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Liddy told WPBF that his car can go 50 miles on a single charge, but he said he converts some vehicles that can go up to 400 miles on a charge.


  400 miles on a charge? That I'd like to see....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 400 miles on a charge? That I'd like to see....


Well it *could* happen.... it would just take 60K$ and 1000lbs of lithium, you know?

Same sort of "talk" that he used on Daniel..."125 mile on a charge"...


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Appears to be the same guy, since they mentioned Cool Green Car, and he is in West Palm Beach, but they spelled his name wrong. It's Liddle, not Liddy.

I don't know whether the 400 mile claim was him lying, or the newspaper getting it wrong. Newspapers are notorious for getting things wrong. Read an article about a topic you know about, and chances are they'll get it wrong.

At the same time as he was working on my car, he was working on another late-model Porsche (nearly identical to mine) for a customer who wanted a 200-mile range. He posted a YouTube video, some 6 or 8 seconds long, titled something like "200 mile electric Porsche" or something like that, and the video is merely a shot of the batteries in the trunk. It looks essentially identical to the arrangement in my trunk, but I don't believe he'd ever range-tested it. He used the same calculations as he used on mine. My 28 kWh pack was supposed to do 125 miles, so I presume he put about a 45 kWh pack in it, and it will probably do 125 miles.

But he might have told the newspaper that with opportunity charging you can go 400 miles in a day. Or he might have said that some day we'll have 400 mile EVs.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Bad news: The guy who was going to sell me a Zilla 2K and install it has backed out. He cited uncertainty about how well my battery pack would handle the higher amperage, and his unwillingness to accept the risk. He also said that my system is different from the ones he has experience with, and he does not want to chance it.

So I suppose I'll end up getting a Logisystems 1000-amp controller. There are a couple of people locally who might be able to install it. I am extremely reluctant to ship the car out of town. But one of the local guys does not want to work on a car this fancy, and he doesn't think the other guy is ready to be working on a car like mine, so at this point it's up in the air.

Daniel


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33408&highlight=logisystems

http://www.ecosmotors.com

*120-156V
*550A $1299
750A $1499
1000A $1799


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a shame, you just can't get a break on this thing can you? The new controller from EVnetics might be available soon, you could PM Tesseract here on the forums since he's developing it. It may actually outperform a Zilla 1K.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's a shame, you just can't get a break on this thing can you? The new controller from EVnetics might be available soon, you could PM Tesseract here on the forums since he's developing it. It may actually outperform a Zilla 1K.


+1

EVnetics FTW!


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Getting a controller will not be the problem. Finding someone to install it without having to ship the car off and wait who-knows how long to get it back, is the problem. When someone I trusted to do the work said he would, I was more excited about that, than about the fact that he was going to sell me the Zilla. A Zilla 2K would probably be overkill for this car anyway. But having someone to do the work was a real thrill. Now that he's backing out, I can easily enough get a 1K controller from Logisystems, but I've got nobody I'm really comfortable about having work on my car. I doubt the mechanic at the Porsche dealership would want to do it because he has no experience or training with EV components and issues.

That, of course, is the big problem that I was shutting my eyes to when I decided to have the conversion done: I have nobody here to work on an EV.

Daniel


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> Getting a controller will not be the problem. Finding someone to install it without having to ship the car off and wait who-knows how long to get it back, is the problem. When someone I trusted to do the work said he would, I was more excited about that, than about the fact that he was going to sell me the Zilla. A Zilla 2K would probably be overkill for this car anyway. But having someone to do the work was a real thrill. Now that he's backing out, I can easily enough get a 1K controller from Logisystems, but I've got nobody I'm really comfortable about having work on my car. I doubt the mechanic at the Porsche dealership would want to do it because he has no experience or training with EV components and issues.
> 
> That, of course, is the big problem that I was shutting my eyes to when I decided to have the conversion done: I have nobody here to work on an EV.
> 
> Daniel


I would network more at the EV events you attend....

Maybe someone else can recommend a place to get stuff installed...

or

maybe you could find several electrically/mechanically inclined DIYers to help you


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The new controller from EVnetics might be available soon, you could PM Tesseract here on the forums since he's developing it. It may actually outperform a Zilla 1K.


Moved my post to not spam this thread. See:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=127133#post127133


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll see if I can find someone in your area to help out.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Washington

http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Idaho 

A few people in Idaho that are close by...

http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Oregon


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## customcircuits (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm a newer member of the EV club that Daniel belongs to. I'm willing to provide whatever advice or support that I can for free. I too though would have concerns about actualy doing the swap out primarily because of the price of the vehicle and conversion. I have my master's in electrical engineering so from that stand point a swap out of a Curtis for a Logisystems is a no brainer. However, I lack the proper tools and facilities necessary to do what is likely needed. I had to do my conversion in a friend's shop last winter. 

I've seen Daniel's conversion, a few concerns I have about swapping in a Logisystems are:

1. Logisystems are known for letting the smoke out. 

2. There will still be a thermal issue with the new controller, same as the Curtis. The first few miles might be fine but once the controller heats up he'll be back to a snails pace. 

3. All of the heat generating components are installed in the trunk with very little ventilation. It's only going to get worse once the under body panels are reinstalled. If Daniel's going to really get anything out of a new controller it would need to be water cooled with the radiator in a location that could actually get the heat out of the trunk.


Daniel-

Do you know if you're using a pot box or a hall effect pedal for the throttle? It will complicate the swap if you have a hall pedal.

Would it be possible to post some pictures of your controller as it's installed now? I'm trying to remember just how much stuff would have to be removed to access the controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The pictures I've seen make it appear the controller is buried and components would have to be removed even to get a picture of it. You're probably correct about the cooling issues, maybe a ducted blower could be setup to bring air to the controller? He might have to wait for the new liquid cooled EVnetics, or possibly the blower cooled Synkromotive. I think the new Logisystems come with fans mounted as well.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel I PM'd you.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Updates? .


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

UPDATE:

I spend much of my summer hiking up in Canada, so nothing much happened for the last couple of months. So here's the latest:

Paul had sent me a package with most of the money he had so far agreed to reimburse me, and (I thought) the missing underbody panels. He had agreed to reimburse me for the money I had so far spent at the Porsche dealer to fix some of the work he had done improperly, plus the cost of a Logisystems 1K controller, which was the one originally promised, and I agreed to return to him the Curtis controller once I had it replaced. I am still waiting for him to sell the original engine and send me that money.

So I took the package with the underbody panels to the dealer, and it turned out that there was only one panel, out of the original three. I asked the dealer to order the other two, and the necessary installation hardware, which Paul had not sent even for the one.

But while the car was up on the lift, the mechanic looked inside the motor and saw a LOT of small black bits. He could not figure out how to open the motor, and since it's not a Porsche component I didn't ask him to mess with it. He's willing to work on anything original about the car, but not the EV components, and I think that's reasonable.

So I got the president of our loval EV club (a fellow named Gordy) to come over and try to open up the motor. Because of the way the whole project is crammed into the space, he was only able to get one of the screens off, and at my very rough estimate, maybe a half a cup of black plastic bits came out. This turned out to be what was left of the fan. Gordy was unable to get the other screen off, so there's still a lot of stuff inside. He thinks the brushes look okay, but I don't know if he was able to see everything.

I talked to a man at NetGain, who told me that if a bolt was inserted too far into he motor, it would demolish the fan the first time the motor was run. He said that the fan costs about $150 and is an easy replacement. However, Gordy thinks he'll have to remove the entire assembly, including the batteries, to get at the motor. With luck, he'll have time to attempt that project in a month or two. He is very busy. In addition to his real job, he's working on a Subaru conversion, and that has priority.

But the NetGain man also told me that (contrary to what a lot of people have told me!) my present 144 volts is ideal for this 11-inch Warp motor. He said all I need is a bigger controller and the car should perform very nicely. NetGain and EV Source are developing a water-cooled controller, presently in beta testing. I'm now on the waiting list for one, and perhaps if I'm lucky, by the time Gordy is able to work on my car I'll have the controller.

Gordy won't have to do any design work, but he'll have to completely disassemble and reassemble the entire back end of the car. The good news is that he won't have to change the battery configuration and I won't have to buy new chargers, which a higher-voltage configuration would have required.

At this point I deeply regret having bought this car. The best-case scenario is that it will have tolerable acceleration and 2/3 the range I had expected, for a few thousand dollars more than I had agreed to pay. At least it would then be drivable.

In the mean time it is parked, to avoid doing further damage by driving it with half the fan still in bits inside the motor, and I am driving my trusty little Zap Xebra. I've had bad things to say about Zap in the past, but the little three-legged clown car gets me all over Spokane. Knock on wood! _*Raps knuckled on head.*_

Daniel


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Well good thing the small black bits are just pieces of the plastic fan and not something more expensive....will you have to take the motor housing/shell off to clean it out? Will compressed air do the trick?

I believe the line of netgain controllers you are referring to are called warp-core...I think previously called "warp-drive"..or vice versa...here are some informational videos Netgain has posted online about their warp controller...

http://www.youtube.com/user/ngcontrols

I hope when I get to my conversion I will have a "Gordy" to help me out!

Cheers Gordy!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hey Daniel, I was wondering what the status was. Certainly the more powerful controller will improve your performance. If you don't want to wait for the newer controller you can get the new EVnetics Soliton1 1000amp continuous rated controller right now. It might be better than a Zilla and no waiting.
Sorry you didn't have better news to report.
http://evnetics.com/soliton1specifications.html


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Hey Daniel, I was wondering what the status was. Certainly the more powerful controller will improve your performance. If you don't want to wait for the newer controller you can get the new EVnetics Soliton1 1000amp continuous rated controller right now. It might be better than a Zilla and no waiting.
> Sorry you didn't have better news to report.
> http://evnetics.com/soliton1specifications.html


Thanks for that. I like the idea of the NetGain controller because it was designed with the NetGain motors in mind. As for waiting, I have to wait until Gordy has time to work on the car anyway.

Driving the Xebra has its benefits: Nobody much notices the Porsche, even though it says "ELECTRIC" and "All Electric All the Time" on it. But everybody notices the Xebra. I had it downtown today, and someone asked me about it while I was feeding money to the parking meter and two separate couples asked me about it when I got back in to drive home.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As the Netgain Warp motors are probably the most common conversion motors available I can assure you that EVnetics designed the Soliton1 with them in mind as well, and they did much of their testing with a Warp9 on a dyno. 40 some odd page thread on it here if you're interested: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/new-controller-prototype-29062.html


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

jrp3 said:


> hey daniel, i was wondering what the status was. Certainly the more powerful controller will improve your performance. If you don't want to wait for the newer controller you can get the new evnetics soliton1 1000amp continuous rated controller right now. It might be better than a zilla and no waiting.
> Sorry you didn't have better news to report.
> http://evnetics.com/soliton1specifications.html


+1

.
.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Another update:

I bought a 1,000-amp water-cooled controller from EV Source, newly-designed with the NetGain motors in mind. And NetGain sent me a replacement motor fan at no cost (even though they think improper installation caused the damage). Gordy picked up the car and took it to his shop and has begun studying it. I have seen two conversions Gordy has built, and they look clean and very well done.

But he is very dissatisfied with the present configuration: battery boxes are too light for his liking, and contacts are so close together that a small amount of movement could cause shorting, and there is evidence that there has been some movement (though no shorting yet). He is concerned enough that he is going to have some EMT friends present when he does the disassembly.

He is determined to make this car what it was supposed to be to begin with, though its range will never be what was promised without a significant investment in additional batteries. At least he thinks he can give it the performance Paul originally promised me.

But it's going to be a long project. Gordy thinks spring, but all the people he has consulted with think a year. I suppose I'd be able to buy a Nissan EV before my Porsche will be back on the road, and I kick myself hard for ever having bought this car, but at this point, the alternative of junking it is not acceptable. I'd sell it right now as-is for 80% of what I put into it, but I highly doubt anybody would pay that much, so I'm stuck with the additional expense of fixing it.

The only consolation is that the little Zap Xebra SD continues to run without any problems, and is still the only car I need as long as I don't have to go outside of town and the roads remain free of snow. 

At the time I bought the Porsche and turned it over to Paul for conversion, it was supposed to take him 4 months to complete, and the wait for a Tesla Roadster was over a year. The Porsche would have had half the range and half the acceleration, but twice the room and be infinitely more comfortable. Turns out I should have bought the Roadster. I'd have been driving it by now!  But what's done is done, and as long as nobody wants to take the Porsche off my hands, the repair project will go ahead.

Gordy is studying it now, and at some point we will meet with other EV folks to brainstorm the best approach, and they'll give me an estimate of the cost. Then I'll decide whether I really want to spend the money or eat my loss.

Daniel


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm glad you have someone competent looking at the vehicle, but I'm a bit confused as to the time frame of the repair. Reconfiguring the batteries and wiring in a new controller shouldn't take that long, even if they have to build new battery boxes. I realize all the belt driven accessories will have to come off, and I assume the motor has to come out to replace the fan, so it's no small job, but 4 or more months? Is this a conversion shop or just an enthusiast working part time?
Never mind, I reread your earlier post and see that Gordy would only be working on it part time.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal and I really hope it works out for you.


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## karellen (Apr 13, 2009)

Are there any updates to this story? I'd love to hear that your car is now in great, speedy shape.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

A very belated update:

When Gordy began taking apart the Porsche, he found more and more things that were done so shoddily that the car was seriously dangerous to drive. He proposed taking it entirely apart and starting over from scratch. I agreed. 

The motor was damaged because it had been installed off center so that it shook as it turned. This (rather than an exposed bolt as I originally speculated) was what destroyed the internal fan. Gordy took it to someone on the coast who has been involved with the White Zombie, and they rebuilt the motor.

He removed all the batteries and redesigned the pack, and re-installed it, but it turned out that Paul had destroyed some of the batteries in a charging accident before ever sending me the car, and there were eight bad cells, which we had to replace, further delaying the project.

Paul had designed the conversion in such a way that it was many hours of work to get at many of the parts. Gordy re-designed it all so that everything comes out easily for service. 

The power brakes did not work as Paul delivered it to me, and Gordy fixed that.

As Paul delivered the car, the axel bolts were loose and actually coming out. I've already mentioned that the transmission bolts were loose, but the Porsche dealership tightened those way back when I first got the car. Much of what was wrong with the car I am unclear on.

A couple of weeks ago Gordy invited me over to test drive the car. It has a lot more power than it did, but he advised me not to push it until the brushes have had time to seat. At one point there was a klunk and the car would not go. Gordy suspected a relay being triggered by an over- or under-voltage event, maybe from pushing it in too low a gear. I turned the car off and then back on and it worked again. Then a few days later Gordy told me that upon charging, the new battery cells got swollen. There was no other damage, but he was concerned that the chargers (which came with the original battery pack) are not good, and said he would investigate options.

At that point I cracked. I made it clear to Gordy that I place no responsibility on him, as I know he's doing his best to fix what was a bad job to begin with, but faced with the prospect of who-knows how many months more of waiting for a full-on electric car, I gave up:

I flew to Seattle for the day and test drove a Tesla Roadster. I placed my order for an orange one in Chicago, and that car is being shipped to me as I write this.

So the Porsche will be for sale.

A couple of days later, I got a call from an associate of Gordy's, who is also working on the Porsche, who said that the battery problem is not as serious as they first thought and the car ought to be done in a couple of weeks. Maybe it will come on the same day as the Roadster. But I have no regrets about buying the Roadster. It will be a much more reliable car with three times the range. I deeply regret buying the Porsche. It was an enormous expense for no benefit whatsoever. 

The Porsche was supposed to have had half the range and half the power of the Roadster but with 4 times the inside space. It was to have been here a year before I could have gotten a Roadster if I'd placed an order at the same time, and be much more comfortable to sit in and drive. Instead, it will have 1/3 the range; power is still unknown until the brushes are seated and I can punch it; it is still much more comfortable to sit in and drive; but if I'd ordered the Roadster I'd have been driving it for a year by now.

Assuming Gordy does not encounter any more problems, and is able to complete it, I'll happily show it and give rides in it to anyone who cares to visit Spokane. And I'll entertain any reasonable offers to buy it, either now, as an unfinished project, or after it's done. If it does get done, it will be a beautiful car. The one thing it really has going for it compared to the Roadster is seating comfort. And in its own way it's as beautiful.

I wish I'd never bought it, but what's done is done. With the Roadster on its way, the Porsche will give me no more ulcers or sleepless nights, as it's been doing for two years now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the continuing problems with the Porsche, small solace but you are not alone:


> The Ford Edge runs. But it is atrocious. Originally converted by Paul LIddle in West Palm Beach, it didn't get any better in Iowa either.


http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2011/06/feast-and-famine-in-land-of-electric.html
Jack seems to like buying EV's, he might be interested in yours.
Congratulations on the Tesla, hopefully it will erase many of the bad memories.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

The fact that someone else has been scammed (and I have heard from others who also say they were scammed, some worse than I was) is no solace. There is some solace in the fact that the local DIY EV people tell me the guy really did have a stellar reputation. I made a good choice based on the information I had. 

Buying the Porsche was the third worst decision I've ever made in my life. The others had nothing to do with cars. But life goes on, and in a few weeks (I really do not believe the promise of one week from the ship date) I'll have the overall best EV made. Well, if you don't consider that mine is the lower-end non-sport model.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> The fact that someone else has been scammed (and I have heard from others who also say they were scammed, some worse than I was) is no solace. There is some solace in the fact that the local DIY EV people tell me the guy really did have a stellar reputation. I made a good choice based on the information I had.
> 
> Buying the Porsche was the third worst decision I've ever made in my life. The others had nothing to do with cars. But life goes on, and in a few weeks (I really do not believe the promise of one week from the ship date) I'll have the overall best EV made. Well, if you don't consider that mine is the lower-end non-sport model.


HAHA, you mean the non sport model that is still faster than ferrari's, porsche's and the like, oh, cry me a river...hahahaha

Sorry to hear about the issues with the porsche, I have been following your thread for awhile, and I was really hoping it would turn out ok for you in the end...But i guess cutting your losses is the best decision at this point. I am sure you will love the Tesla...please make sure to come back and post pictures, and videos of your roadster, don't abandon us! haha


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Another update on the electric Porsche (with a side note on the Tesla).

The Porsche is in my garage since Saturday morning (the day before yesterday). But it is still not the car it was supposed to be.

Since my last post, Gordy and his friend Tim had to deal with (IIRC) eight bad cells in the battery pack. I don't remember if I posted this last time, but we learned from the battery importer that Paul had severely damaged the battery pack (charging it on his bench, I think) totally destroying some cells, which he replaced, severely damaging others, which he did not replace, and leaving the rest in unknown condition. Thus the pack that Paul finally installed was damaged, with some cells severely so. Gordy and Tim replaced the 8 severely damaged cells and in stalled a BMS. There was no BMS originally. Thus it was not until Saturday that Tim finally brought the car over. It's been three and a quarter years since I bought the car and had it delivered to Paul for a conversion that he estimated would take 4 months. 

However, they informed me that the motor is out of balance and vibrates over some RPM level. And they informed me that the battery pack, though not completely ruined as earlier thought, is in bad shape, with some cells extremely weak, though they feel that replacing those now would be pointless because the pack will never be in balance.

My first drive: After having driven the Tesla since end of June, nothing else is going to feel quick to me, and I have not attempted a zero-to-sixty time, in part because at sixty in 6th gear there will be motor vibration. But acceleration is not too bad. Paul had promised me zero to sixty in the six to eight second range, and I think maybe it could do eight seconds now. 

Shifting is a world better than it was. Apparently Paul had done something to mess up the linkage or transmission (which as noted earlier was actually not even bolted in tight) and it was nearly impossible to downshift. Now that's much better, and upshifting is much easier and faster. Paul had taken out the clutch (I don't know why).

With Gordy's redesign, it was necessary to remove the back seats. There is a tiny bit of space to put stuff back there, but the trunk is now so small that maybe a briefcase would fit in it, so instead of double the interior space of the Roadster, the Porsche now has LESS storage space than the Roadster.

The Porsche took first place at the Eagles' auto show in Hayden Lake, ID. It's a beautiful car.

The Porsche is still MUCH easier to get in and out of, and the seating for driver and passenger is much roomier in the Porsche. And the Porsche takes corners and holds the road better than the Roadster. Hey, it is a Porsche, after all. Everything that Paul did not touch is impeccable German engineering.

Of course, the Porsche is redundant now that I have the Tesla.

Yesterday I took the Porsche out for another drive. I went to a friend's house, we went to a restaurant, I took her home, then returned home myself; total about 21 miles driving. At about 17 miles and about 72% SoC the BMS warning buzzer went off and I had to ease off the pedal. I had not been accelerating to the maximum except a few times, but I was not driving gently. I now began driving gently, but the buzzer kept sounding, and I finally had to switch the sound off. The BMS light was shining steadily by 18 or 19 miles.

I talked to both Gordy and Tim on the phone, and the conclusion is that the pack is usable as is. Running it into the warning region will perhaps kill it faster, but it's already pretty much worthless, so Gordy suggested ignoring the warning, but keeping an eye on the pack voltage, and sooner or later the pack will have to be replaced anyway. 

The future:

This winter, when Gordy has time, he'll send the motor in to be balanced. Tim will find out the cost of a replacement pack, which he'll sell me at his cost plus actual labor. I will decide whether I want to dump yet more money into this car, which I don't even want any more now that I have a car that's so much better.

I want to sell the Porsche. If I can sell it as is, I will do so. If I have to put in a new pack to sell it, I'll consider that. Tim thinks that the acceleration will be very significantly better with a balanced motor and, more importantly, a fresh, undamaged battery pack. For someone that wants a converted Porsche rather than the less comfortable and less unique Tesla Roadster, this is truly a beautiful car. I'll happily give rides to anyone, whether they're interested in buying it or not (I love to show off what EVs can do) and I'll allow test drives to anyone who is a serious potential buyer. If you are farther than about ten miles from me, but less than about 40 to 50, and seriously interested in the Porsche, I'll pick you up in the Roadster, let you test drive the Porsche, and take you back home. If you're within ten miles of me I'll just drive the Porsche to your place.

This has been a disaster from first to last, and all I want right now is to be rid of it. I plan on contacting Paul once I've calmed down a bit, and asking him to refund my money as a demonstration of good faith. If he agrees to that I will post here that he is an honest man after all and the job he did on my car was a combination of mistakes and not intentional fraud. But I suspect that he probably does not have the money for that, so in the mean time the car is for sale.

I attach a picture of the Tesla Roadster, which is now my daily driver, and which I love. When you press on the pedal, it throws your head back. One person I gave a ride to (a motorcyclist who rides a Harley) told me I should warn my passenger before stomping on the pedal.

I also attach a picture of the Porsche. (Edit: the picture of the Porsche is old. It now says "Electric" on the sides just behind the headlights. It also says "ELECTRIC" and "All Electric All The Time" on the back.)


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the update Daniel. 

I concur that I don't think you will you get a refund so I hope you find a buyer soon. Do you feel comfortable listing what you want for the car?

Before you invest in a new pack and new motor (balancing), it might be worth finding out what the limited functioning conversion will go for now, as-is.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought Gordy rebuilt the motor, so how is it already out of balance? I'd be concerned with driving the unbalanced pack after the warning buzzers are sounding. Potentially you could drive a cell to zero volts and reverse it, which might make it overheat when attempting to charge the car. I would not charge the car unattended.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

What I want for the car is more than I'd be able to get. But since I really don't know what it's worth, I cannot say at this point what I'd accept. Tim thinks it might fetch 45 as is, or 60 with a new pack. Gordy thinks it should be worth 60 as is or 80 with a new pack. But I suspect both of them are just guessing. I know that I'm going to take a bath on it when I sell it, but if I cannot get enough for it (and I'm still not sure what "enough" would be) I might keep it. I guess if I have to toss out a number, I'd sell it as is for 80 right now. Anybody that wants to make an offer, I'll consider it. Anybody that wants to see it is welcome. Maybe if someone waved 60 grand in cash under my nose I'd figure it'd be worth it to be done with the thing. If a meteorite fell on it (while I was not in it) I'd probably be relieved to be done with it. It's been 3 1/4 years of frustration, and still not what it was promised to be.

The motor:

Gordy had a guy on the coast rebuild the motor. Apparently that guy wanted to do a bit more, and had to bake it to do that. (I don't understand any of this.) But that melted the balancing putty. So the motor needs rebalancing. This winter, when he has the time available, and I've had some time to drive it a bit, Gordy will send the motor back to NetGain for balancing. It should cost very little to do that and will be worth it.

The pack:

I've been assured that the LiFePO4 batteries are not combustible and while reversing a cell could damage the other cells, no other damage would result. And the pack is already in such bad shape (from the incident in Paul's shop, which Paul didn't see fit to tell me about) that it cannot be saved, and I might as well drive it into the ground and then replace the pack. Both Gordy and Tim are in agreement on this point.

The car is fun to drive. If I didn't have the Tesla it could be my daily driver, at least while the pack lasts. Problem is, the Tesla is a LOT more fun to drive, making the Porsche redundant now. And I only have a two-car garage, so the Prius and the Xebra are parked out of doors right now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A severely over charged LiFePO4 cell can still catch fire. A cell that is driven to zero and reversed has no capacity so either it will be severely overcharged when charging or, hopefully, the BMS will detect the problem and shut down the charger very quickly.

As for price, 60-80K is in the range of a Tesla Model S, for a conversion that still needs some work and has no warranty. I wish you luck but it sounds like a hard sell to me.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A severely over charged LiFePO4 cell can still catch fire. A cell that is driven to zero and reversed has no capacity so either it will be severely overcharged when charging or, hopefully, the BMS will detect the problem and shut down the charger very quickly.
> 
> As for price, 60-80K is in the range of a Tesla Model S, for a conversion that still needs some work and has no warranty. I wish you luck but it sounds like a hard sell to me.


I will ask Tim, who was mostly responsible for the new BMS, whether it will shut down the chargers in the event of a dangerous fault.

I fear you are right about the value of the car, though the Model S will not be available for some time yet, and anyone who is not already on the list will have to wait even longer. If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, an electric Porsche that's driving now has some advantage over a Model S that has not yet gone into production.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the value. For the moment, let's assume I get the motor rebalanced (which I intend to do) and replace the pack with all brand-new LiFePO4, 24 kWh, giving it a range of roughly 80 miles to dead empty at slower freeway speeds, or roughly 64 miles to 80% DoD. The car is otherwise in impeccable condition physically. It will never be a racing car, but is a beautiful car to drive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know the current value of the original donor vehicle, so that would come into play, but I'd think between $40-50k would be reasonable. It's a conversion, with good but not great range. Of course the right, motivated buyer might go higher. As you say someone who really wants an EV but can't wait for an S might go for it as a hold over. People were paying over $40K for a used RAV4EV when there were no other EV's available.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts.

I bought this car 3 1/4 years ago because I wanted a freeway-capable EV with 100 miles of range, so that I could drive 60 miles for a good long time as the pack slowly lost its capacity with age. I considered trying to get a Honda Civic converted, but chose the Porsche because, (1) I was having trouble finding someone reliable who would convert a Civic; (2) I thought the Porsche was a beautiful car; and (3) Paul's reputation seemed to guarantee a truly elegant and top-quality ride. I was to have gotten the completed car a couple of years before I'd have been able to get a Tesla, and based on a ride in a Tesla prototype, the Porsche was enormously more comfortable to ride in. (The Porsche still is more comfortable to ride in, though the Tesla is far more comfortable than the prototype was.) The Porsche was to have had roughly half the acceleration, half the range, and twice the interior space of the Tesla.

It seemed like a good choice at the time. But then Paul took 11 months instead of 4 to get the car to me, and it was a death trap, as noted earlier in this thread, with loose axle and transmission mounting bolts, live battery contacts a millimeter from grounded frame, wiring harness hanging loose below the car, A/C condensers hanging loose by plastic ties, etc., and it had only 2/3 of the promised and paid-for batteries and even these were damaged.

Gordy was willing to take on the repair, which amounted to a complete dismantling, redesign, and reconstruction, but with other EV projects and a full-time job, he could make no promises regarding time frame.

So now, someone who wants an interim EV while waiting for a Model S, could buy a Nissan Leaf.

The buyer of the Porsche now would have to be an EV enthusiast who also wants a unique EV that is beautiful and is fun to drive in the way a plane-Jane EV like the Leaf is not. If I had known that the Leaf would be available before I'd have had the Porsche, I never would have bought the Porsche. So I need to find someone very unlike myself: Someone who is willing to pay roughly double the cost of a Leaf for a car with the same range and less space, but the cache of elegance, enjoyment, and uniqueness that the EV Porsche offers. Maybe a wealthy collector of unusual cars.

I'd sell it now, but I don't expect to be able to sell it until the motor is balanced (which will happen this winter) and the pack is replaced, which I suppose I'll reluctantly have to do. Right now I'm taking it out for short trips. It is fun to drive, as long as I don't obsess on how badly Paul treated me. Gordy and Tim and everyone else have been great through the whole thing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You summed up your target buyer quite well. Once you get it sorted hopefully you can find the right person to help recoup some of your losses. 
I've been following this sad saga since you first posted about it, on the Tesla board I think, and have been hoping you'd get some sort of positive resolution in the long run, or at least less negative.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks. BTW, Tim confirmed that the BMS will shut off the chargers if any cell reaches an overcharge state. I drove it a few miles today, and then decided that I'm not going to drive it any more until the motor and pack issues are fixed. It's just not fun when I have to worry about all that stuff. I'd drive it if I didn't have the Tesla, but that car is just so much fun to drive that there's no point in driving the Porsche. It would have been my daily driver at a time when freeway-capable EVs with that kind of range were very scarce, and not being sold by any car maker. It didn't work out that way. I'm glad I had the Xebra all those years, but now I'm just looking forward to putting all that behind me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you going to get a Model S?


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Nope. Don't need it. While the S will have a lot more space and be more comfortable and generally luxurious, the Roadster is really all I need, along with the Prius. The Model S does not have enough range to get to my hiking locations in Canada without a LONG stop for charging (no fast chargers between Spokane, WA, and Revelstoke, BC) and the number of times outside of those trips that the Roadster would be inadequate due to its lack of space are so few, I can use the Prius.

The Prius will continue to be my road trip car until the S offers a 400-mile range. And I'll likely drive it another 4 or 5 times a year. All the rest, I expect the Roadster to be all I need.

If I got married and my wife wanted an EV of her own, I'd get her a Model S. But I've never gotten to first base with girls, so that seems unlikely. In the almost 8 years I've had the Prius, I think I've had more than one passenger about five times. So I really don't need more than a two-seat car. And for those rare times, I'll have the Prius, which will need to be driven once every couple of months anyway just to keep it running properly.

Three + years ago, when I bought the Porsche, I'd have bought a Model S in a heartbeat, if it had been available. I'd have bought ANY freeway-capable EV that had been available new. Wasn't interested in a used Rav4EV, though in retrospect I'd have been better off getting one rather than the Porsche.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Well, I drove the Porsche a few times to get the feel of it. It definitely has much more zip than it had when I got it back from Paul, and maybe it could do the six-to-eight-second time that was originally promised, but no comparison whatsoever to the Tesla. If I was not worried about the motor vibration and if the battery pack was not damaged, it would probably be fun to drive, but not nearly as much fun as the Tesla.

Bottom line: I doubt that I will be able to sell it even fixed up; and I don't want to drive it now that I have the Tesla (and since it lacks ABS and stability control), and so I see no value in putting more money into it. 

I have decided to stop putting money into it. Three years ago it would have been a showcase for electric transportation, and that would have made it worthwhile to finish it even with the increased cost. But now, with both the Tesla and the Leaf on the roads, and more coming, the Window of Value for the Porsche has passed.

I'll sell it if I can. Otherwise it will sit, undriven, until I die and my estate junks it. I've taken the insurance off it, except for comp, in case of theft or vandalism. It's now a paperweight.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

well i am sure you can sell it for something, salvage value is better than no value...right?




daniel1948 said:


> Well, I drove the Porsche a few times to get the feel of it. It definitely has much more zip than it had when I got it back from Paul, and maybe it could do the six-to-eight-second time that was originally promised, but no comparison whatsoever to the Tesla. If I was not worried about the motor vibration and if the battery pack was not damaged, it would probably be fun to drive, but not nearly as much fun as the Tesla.
> 
> Bottom line: I doubt that I will be able to sell it even fixed up; and I don't want to drive it now that I have the Tesla (and since it lacks ABS and stability control), and so I see no value in putting more money into it.
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's still a good roller, with some good components, list it as such on the various EV boards, such as this one, and someone looking for a project will take it off your hands and give you at least some of your money. Seems a shame to let it just sit and possibly deteriorate, plus you having to look at it as a constant reminder. Get it out of your life and into someone else's.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's still a good roller, with some good components, list it as such on the various EV boards, such as this one, and someone looking for a project will take it off your hands and give you at least some of your money. Seems a shame to let it just sit and possibly deteriorate, plus you having to look at it as a constant reminder. Get it out of your life and into someone else's.


+1,

early model Porsche 996's with high mileage and no body damage are selling for 15,000$ minus what you could get to sell the engine, gas tanks, exhaust, radiator, etc. maybe best case 3K$, 12,000$ worth as a roller.... 

You have a high-end Motor, Controller, Charger?, Batteries, etc and they all have re-sale value...

If you were to get 25K$ from the car it would be 50% of what you were looking for, but hey, 25K$ is 25K$, you could go out and buy a Leaf!


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> well i am sure you can sell it for something, salvage value is better than no value...right?


Not necessarily. I still have a lot of anger. Selling it for 1/5 of what I've put into it would feel like being robbed again.



JRP3 said:


> It's still a good roller, with some good components, list it as such on the various EV boards, such as this one, and someone looking for a project will take it off your hands and give you at least some of your money. Seems a shame to let it just sit and possibly deteriorate, plus you having to look at it as a constant reminder. Get it out of your life and into someone else's.


Might happen. Just not right now. Maybe I'll let the local EV club fiddle with it.

As for a Leaf, I don't need or want a leaf. I bought a Tesla Roadster back in June, when I got sick of waiting for both the Porsche and the Leaf, six months after the Leaf was originally promised, after Nissan had screwed up my order 4 times, and after continuing lies and b.s. from Nissan. The Roadster is now my daily driver, having replaced the Zap Xebra I drove almost daily for four years. I absolutely love the Roadster. It's worlds better than the Porsche ever would have been, with three times the range of the Leaf and far more acceleration. I can live with the contortions needed to get in and out.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

daniel1948 said:


> ...Maybe I'll let the local EV club fiddle with it...


That would actually be a great idea... 

If you were to donate the porscheEV to a car club, they could use it to promote and educate people and it could help to turn this horrible experience around for you, seeing how many people benefit and learn from the exposure of your EV.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know about donating it, but loaning it to them as a "teaching" tool, while they fix it all up for you, for free. Excluding new batteries of course.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

The problem with the above two suggestions, is that pretty much everything's been done other than the new battery pack. Nobody has $12,000 and I'm not willing to put that much into a car I have little interest in driving. As for educating the public about what an electric car can do, the Leaf and the Tesla do a better job of that than a conversion car with limited range and a bad pack. And I'm always looking for opportunities to show off the Tesla. I give rides to everyone I can talk into it, and I tell everyone who will listen about its range and acceleration and low "fuel" cost.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

This post is slightly belated. A while back (a couple of weeks? a month?) I finally phoned Paul in Florida, who did the original conversion, to ask him for my money back. I didn't expect to get it, but I wanted to give him the chance to make good.

I summarized the things wrong with the car (all or most of which I've detailed in this long thread) and I told him that I felt he had not fulfilled our contract. While he had never promised a completion date, he had told me that the longest it had ever taken to do a conversion was 4 months, yet it took him eleven months to get my car back to me, and when he did it was in unacceptable condition. The written contract promised "approximately 125 miles" of range. Actual range, estimated from the wh/mile usage and the pack size, was 80 miles. The contract included a line item for the battery pack, and I later learned from the battery importer than Paul only spent 2/3 of that amount on batteries. I heard by word of mouth that a charging mishap on the bench had damaged the battery pack, and indeed, testing revealed about 8 severely damaged cells, and several others significantly damaged, and in general, voltages "all over the map."

In brief, Paul denied everything. He denied shipping the car with the transmission bolts finger-loose (as they were when the car arrived) or with the axel bolts loose (as they were after I'd driven the car about a month, and I presume they were when it arrived). He denied there had been a charging incident, and asserted that the pack, and in fact the car generally, had been in tip-top shape when he shipped it.

That the car arrived in abysmal condition is simple fact. Whether Paul is lying, or actually believes that the car was in top condition, I have no way of knowing. It seems unlikely to me that someone got to the car and did all that stuff to it while it was in route. He expressed dismay that I have "badmouthed" him "all over the net." I have posted my experience and the actual condition of the car here, and more briefly on two other boards where I regularly or occasionally post. Since posting my experiences, I've heard from a couple of other people who had uncomplimentary things to say about Paul, and since Gordy has been working on my car, he has encountered other people who are unhappy with Paul. In addition to denying everything, Paul said that he could not refund my money if he wanted to because he does not have the money. In fairness to Paul, I have no idea how much hands-on involvement he had with my car, or whether he'd have been in a position to know what a death trap he was sending me. Perhaps he has someone doing the work for him, and Paul himself is unaware of how incompetent or careless that person is.

At the end of our phone call, Paul said he was short on time, and he offered to call me back the following Monday (it was a Friday afternoon when I called him, and three hours later in Florida than here). He did not call me back. I took that as a final refusal to make good on my car.

Gordy is presently busy constructing a building. When that's done, he's going to have the motor in the Porsche rebalanced. After that, we're still pondering whether it would be possible to salvage enough of the pack to make the car perform as it was originally supposed to, though with a much reduced range. Maybe if it performs well enough, I'd be able to sell it and finally close the book on this really unpleasant experience. At least I finally have the Tesla, which is a really excellent electric car.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sure you don't want to spend another cent on this car but if it's those 8 bad cells that are severely limiting the range it would probably be worth replacing those to get the range back up to something more desirable for a prospective buyer. 
At this point I'm not surprised at all that Paul isn't going to do anything for you but I'm glad you made the attempt.


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## daniel1948 (Jun 6, 2009)

The 8 cells are the ones we did replace. Apparently the rest of the pack is in bad shape as well. I'll be discussing options with Gordy once he finishes his new building.


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