# [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 51 pounds per square inch is the new standard for tire pressure.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It pays to check your tire pressure ratings, even on standard tires. The
normal "rule of thumb" is to run your passenger car tires at 32 psi. I
checked my Toyo 800 Ultra tires and they were rated to 44 psi maximum
pressure. These are 4-5 year old tires. Setting them to their maximum
pressure has increased mileage in my ICE by 2-3 mpg (7-10%). This is in a
2000 Mazda 626 V6. 

I have been doing this for a year and myself and my mechanic have not
noticed any unusual tire wear. The mechanic told me that smaller cars often
wear their tires on the outside edges so a little higher inflation than
normal can actually even out tire wear. So far, I haven't had the drive to
go past the maximum pressure, but I have been careful to stay at the maximum
pressure.

Mike (Middleton, ID)

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Phil Marino
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 51 pounds per square inch is the new standard for tire pressure.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 May 2009 at 23:17, Phil Marino wrote:
> 
> > Even if they do, it may not be safe - handling wise - to take a car
> > with a suspension designed for 30 psi tire pressure and drive it on
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All I can say is I have B381's on my Prius at 48psi, they work great.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Sunday, 24 May 2009 4:47 a.m.
To: NEVlist; [email protected]
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.


51 pounds per square inch is the new standard for tire pressure. Goodyear,
Sumitomo & other manufacturers are taking note. OEMS are demanding lighter
higher pressure tires. A 13 inch lrr tire on an NEV can increase speed,
range & hill climbing. On our regular evs it at least helps range. Take
note. Look what the OEMS are using on their hybrids. B381, HTR T4 &
Assurance Fuel Max tires are among tires that will increase range on any
vehicle. Take note. Please report tire specifications when you find them.
I'm having a hard time comparing these new tires as info is a closely held
secret. Lawrence Rhodes.... 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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bmZvL2V2Cgo=


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you can find another tire, avoid the Michelin - thier quality has gone 
down to the point that they are not worth the money anty more, if they ever 
were. I used to work in a tire shop, and so I know.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.


> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:37 AM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> I've always run EV tires right at or close to the PSI limit marked on the
> >> sidewall. Never a problem. YMMV, of course; experiment carefully.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In selecting a set of tires for any vehicle that has been modified, it is 
best to weigh the vehicle front to rear and side to side. After you 
determine the weight on each wheel.

If the weight exceeds the vehicle standard suspension and wheel 
specifications, then this must also be upgraded too. Lets say the original 
load rating of the tire is at 1000 lbs @ 30 psi, a good suspension design 
will be double that rating at 2000 lbs. The bearing set then are rated for 
2000 lbs thrust.

A vehicle that has 1000 lbs per wheel and when acceleration may thrust to 
2000 lbs.

In my EV, my rear wheel weight is 2330 lbs and the front wheel weight is 
1100 lbs on the front wheels. The tire set is rated at 2360 lbs at 65 psi. 
I leave this rating at 65 psi on the rear and proportion the air pressure 
for the fronts to (1100 x 65)/2330 = 30.68 lbs.

Add 50 percent for thrust, thus becomes about 45 psi on the fronts by 
suspension and bearing thrust are design for 4000 lbs.

The tire you choose, should be a polyglass steel reinforce face that 
maintains a more rounded shaft. This is achieved by having more plys on the 
face then on the side wall. My 8 ply face has a 2 ply sidewall, which pick 
up most of the deflection of the suspension instead of a stiff side wall 
which will transmit that deflection to the face. These are how the LRR 
tires are engineer.

This means a softer ride for a high pressure tire. Do not use a nylon or 
nylon polyglass mix tire in the colder climates. This type of tire when 
setting, may take several miles before the flat area is rounded out.

Even with these type of high pressure tires when setting, will have a amount 
of deflection of the face. You want to keep the face deflection rate as 
small as possible. To measure the amount of deflection, raise the tire off 
grade and air it up to the to the max. PSI as stated on the sidewall.

Now lower the tire, where it barely touches the floor. Then measure from 
the floor to the wheel rim of the tire. Lets say it reads 4 inches. Then 
let the full weight of the tire on the surface and lets say it reads 3.5 
inches. This is now 0.5 inch of deflection.

A 0.5 inch of deflection is about right for the stated side wall psi for a 
softer ride, but does adds some resistance to the rolling of the tire. If 
you get 0.5 inch deflection, then you need a higher psi rated tire for a 
lower tire face resistance.

I am running at 0.375 inches of deflection on both the front tires at 45 psi 
and the rears at 65 psi.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.

> However, many EV hobbyists have been running their tires right up to (and
> over) the sidewall-marked maximum inflation pressure for many years, and I
> don't know of anyone who has recorded any undesirable handling effects 
> that
> could be laid to that cause. Of course I may have missed some!
>
> There's also the fact that when we add batteries to the chassis we 
> probably
> do more to unbalance the factory-tuned handling that anything we could do
> with high tire pressure.
>
> Assuming the weight balance of the converted vehicle remains the same, 
> you'd
> want to maintain the vehicle manufacturer's recommended pressure
> differential between front and rear wheels. But it takes quite a bit of
> creative engineering to keep the weight balance the same in a conversion.
>
> I've always run EV tires right at or close to the PSI limit marked on the
> sidewall. Never a problem. YMMV, of course; experiment carefully.
>
> As another data point, I've also done this for years on my ICEVs. The
> current one is a Prius. The factory recommendation is 35 front, 33 rear.
> This strikes me as "boulevard ride" soft. With the OE tires (max pressure
> 44 psi, IIRC) I used the now fairly standard "hypermilers'" pressure of
> 42/40. With the Nokians I have now (max pressure 51 psi) I've increased
> that to 48/46. I've observed no ill effects with either, other than a
> somewhat harsher ride. Wear pattern appears consistent across the tread.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.


> If you can find another tire, avoid the Michelin - thier quality has gone
> down to the point that they are not worth the money anty more, if they 
> ever
> were. I used to work in a tire shop, and so I know.
> Hi EVerybody;

Tires? Yeah! A neccessery evil. Michelins, gotta agree with Joe;I gotta 
term for it; the Michelin Disease: a tire that loses it's roundness or gets 
lumpies on the tread? Scene THAT for years!Needless to say you FEEL and HEAR 
it soon enough!

I have played with Nokieias, and they worked OPK, I tend to agree with 
the 50PSI statement. I'm running Cooper Coneticas, I THINK, no relation to 
them being on sale in Connecticut?At about 50 psi. I think NOST tire will 
give you decent rolling resistance pumped up to rediclous pressures? I 
haven't noticed any odd tred wear patterns, but I DO check the alignment 
often.The Railroads have worked on the Steel Wheel principle for YEARS, IF 
yur tire can be nearly as hard? Sigh. Of course your ride and handling go to 
Hell? Sure would be fun, as an experiment, to fit yur EV with RR 
wheels(handcar size) and go for a range run?I'll bet ya would get a few 
hundred miles? So Rolling Resistance of Tires IS a BIG thing!!Well, the flat 
gradeless(relatively) RR right of way sure would help?I KNOW there are hills 
my trains would NEVER be able to climb, with out cog wheels! Manitou and 
Pikes Peek RR comes to mind!

My thinking there is a Looong way to go in improving tires??

Rollin~ rollin~ rollin!

Bob


> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.
>
>
>> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:37 AM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>


> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've always run EV tires right at or close to the PSI limit marked on
> >>> the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is the same experience I've had. I always wear the corners off the
tires first anyway, so running at 44psi has not noticeably increased wear,
and actually seems to reduce it, in a 2000lb car. I do notice that the
handling is not quite as nice as at 32psi, which could affect someone not
used to it (but my car is old enough to not handle like most people expect,
anyway).

Z



> Mike Nickerson <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > It pays to check your tire pressure ratings, even on standard tires. The
> > normal "rule of thumb" is to run your passenger car tires at 32 psi. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One way to determine the proper air pressure for your tires and this
does vary per model of tire is the following.
It also checks your alignment 

Get a tire pyromter, it is a little meter with a probe that can get just
under the surface rubber.
Got for a drive
Measure the temperature in the outside edge,middle, and inside edge on
all four tires and then remeasure the first tire to tell how much heat
loss you may of had.

If the numbers are the same accross a given tire, it's inflation and
your alignment are perfect, for the drive you tested.


If the center number is lower than the outer two, it is under inflated
if the center is greater than the other two, it is overinflated.

alignment
If the temps are lower on outside and increase towards the inside,
excessive negative camber
etc etc

We can go on from here and start talking about the actual temperature
being in the proper range for the tire and looking to change compounds,
but we are not racing today.

An example is my mitsubish truck with some lightening done on it
resulted in front tire pressures of 34 as optimal on a 224-55-15 tire
and only 24 PSI on the same size tire on the rear.

The pontaic grand am is even worse. 42 up front and 24 in back. The
GrandAm is hard on tires. all the steering,brakeing and turning is on
the front two tires. It also means if pushed, it goes away fast. (tire
temp rises fast and tires go right through sticky and straight to
slippery. A good tire on the front of this car is a must.)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I bought my Prius at 12k mi, its tires' tread was almost
gone on all the corners of the tires (this was the OEM tire
on the USA NHW-11 which had problems to give 30k miles)
However I simply pumped the tires to 45/43 (front/rear) and
20,000 miles later the corners were still at the same wear,
but now the entire tread had worn down equally across the
tires (including a few rotations at strategic moments).
There was still 3mm thread on the rear tires but barely 2mm
front when it was end summer, near fall so I decided that it
was better to have all 4 replaced and stay safe before the rain
so I got 4 new Sumitomo HTR200 ordered, installed, balanced
and insured for $200 total. They matched the Tirerack price.
Those Sumitomos were one of the better LRR tires so I think
I got a good deal.
Sold the car before I could even wear them halfway out but
I was happy with the ride.

BTW, it was a police agency mechanic who said that the only
way to get good performance from any street tire (not racing)
was to pump them to near sidewall max pressure.

My EV truck tires I ran more than 10 PSI above the sidewall
cold pressure because at the rated 35 PSI the tires rolled over
the rim and I was eating chuncks out of the sidewall in tight
corners. At 50 PSI they gave good performance and mileage
without bad behavior in turns, only wet weather performance
was not good but I think many LRR tires are iffy on snow and
rain performance, especially in a vehicle at or over GWVR.

BTW, Light Truck tires are by law required to allow pressure
of 10 PSI over the sidewall cold pressure when the vehicle
is max loaded or high speed driven. So I was not too worried
with 50 PSI in my 35 PSI LT tires since an EV truck never is 
driven for a very long time at high speed / high performance.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.

This is the same experience I've had. I always wear the corners off the
tires first anyway, so running at 44psi has not noticeably increased
wear,
and actually seems to reduce it, in a 2000lb car. I do notice that the
handling is not quite as nice as at 32psi, which could affect someone
not
used to it (but my car is old enough to not handle like most people
expect,
anyway).

Z

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Mike Nickerson


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > It pays to check your tire pressure ratings, even on standard tires.
> The
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I certainly had high impressions of Michelins over the last 15
years. They certainly seemed to be doing well on my 4Runner SUV
since I got a set LTXs in 2002, until... I was driving last
Sept. back to my old stomping grounds in Colorado/Nebraska after
a reasonably hot day in the middle of the night in northeastern
Nevada eastbound on I-80 first day out from the San Francisco Bay
Area. I had seen a lot of thrown tread from trucks scattered
along the freeway earlier in the day (at one point even having to
swerve around remains in the right lane). I was keeping a close
eye on my tires, checking for them getting hot, whenever I
stopped. So at about 10-ish in the evening, as I was pushing the
last 50 miles to my stop for the night on the Utah border, I
entered one of many highway construction zones. They were
typically closing down the right lanes, leaving the left of two
open. Fortunately, that brought the speed down from 70-ish to
60-ish. Driving along, somewhat tired, the ever-impatient car
behind me. I felt a slight judder - I thought of it as probably
road surface variation, but that thought didn't last long, as
almost immediately thereafter the driver's-side front tire
started vibrating, bouncing up and down. Was strongly trying to
pull me around to the left, and I did not want to go into the
median and trip going sideways in the mush. Next event was a
horrendous cloud of smoke (I suspect that's when the tire
actually failed), and I was shortly down to about 25 mph,
whereupon I had surprisingly good control to creep off through
the construction lane to the right shoulder. In the gloom of the
desert night at the side of the highway, my flashlight
illuminated one very trashed tire with gaping holes. My sweaty
shaking hands reached for the cellphone to call AAA (fortunately
I got enought signal for the cell phone). I just wasn't up for
changing the tire on my own in the dark on the side of the
freeway.

I was able to call around the next morning and located two LTXs
(wanted to avoid having a mixed set of tires) in Tooele, UT (SW
of Salt Lake) at the Big O. Limped on my old spare at 55 mph for
a good 100 miles or better. The photo at
http://tinyurl.com/ojmlpl shows the tire. The tread was not
separated on the other side of the tire. The shop was not
willing to venture an explanation for what happened. My best
guess is that I picked up a piece of road debris, resulting in
rather quick deflation, and then tire failure. The scary
possibility is that of random failure. Any speculation from the
tire experts? Fortunately, I was on a straight stretch of
highway, and not going around some off-camber corner, or towing
my EV. Most of that day after I got the tire replaced, I was
feeling real jumpy about tires.

My EV is about due for another set of tires. My Goodyear
Integritys P185-70R13 tires have about 20K miles on them, and the
wear bars are getting kinda close to the top of the remaining
tread. I'm shooting for 25K miles, which will be about another
1.5 to 2 years. 25K will be good for city driving, I'm told, and
will be the best I've had on the EV. My Invicta GLRs in the '90s
were great rollers, but only went 15K, and did not handle well
(they were P175). The Integritys ride/handle better, but the car
seems to work harder, especially on the freeway. The Integritys
have also suffered numerous flats, with every tire having a patch
or two, some up to four patches. They seem to pick up road
debris in the tread at every chance. My last episode was a
couple of months ago with two screws at once, one of which
penetrated. I went bumping home, the slow way, over the hill
through the residential neighborhood, stopping by at the filling
station for a hit of air. True, I have driven around a lot of
construction and storage zones these last several years, but
others there have not had so many problems. So no more
Goodyears. I had thought about Michelins for the next tire
(Green X), but may be having second thoughts according to what
people are saying in this thread and with my experience last fall
on I-80.

Thanks for the info in this thread.

Chuck
Larkspur, CA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.


> If you can find another tire, avoid the Michelin - thier
quality has gone
> down to the point that they are not worth the money anty more,
if they ever
> were. I used to work in a tire shop, and so I know.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] New crop of LRR tires.
>
>
> > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:37 AM, EVDL Administrator
<[email protected]>


> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I've always run EV tires right at or close to the PSI limit
> marked on the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That looked likes too good for a failure like that. Unless of course
it was road debris. One thing I heard about recently was the problem
of new old tires. Some tire models don't sell as well as others and
sit on the shelf for a few extra years before they are discounted and
sold. If they sit too long it will affect the tire. I have to wonder
how old this tire was before you bought it?

Dave Cover



> Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I certainly had high impressions of Michelins over the last 15
> > years. They certainly seemed to be doing well on my 4Runner SUV
> > since I got a set LTXs in 2002, until... I was driving last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recently bought tires from Tire Rack for my truck and had them 
installed locally. I found I could have bought them through the 
installer for less. If you can believe Tire Rack their warehousing is 
specially set up to keep the tires from deteriorating (aging). May be 
some advantage. I purchased a set of Bridgestone REO1 for my Cobra for 
track use that were 2008 tires and was assured their storage system kept 
them good. They have performed well. It may work well to by tires 
locally if they have to order them as they will come from better 
storage. There should be a date, probably coded, on the tires if 
anyone knows how to read it? May help to buy tires like batteries, the 
newer the better, especially since many ev's are not driven hi miles per 
year
John

dave cover wrote:
> That looked likes too good for a failure like that. Unless of course
> it was road debris. One thing I heard about recently was the problem
> of new old tires. Some tire models don't sell as well as others and
> sit on the shelf for a few extra years before they are discounted and
> sold. If they sit too long it will affect the tire. I have to wonder
> how old this tire was before you bought it?
>
> Dave Cover
>
>


> Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I certainly had high impressions of Michelins over the last 15
> >> years. They certainly seemed to be doing well on my 4Runner SUV
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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