# Zeus Commuter Project



## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

My first question: Is there an easy to use calculator available for me to determine if this project is feasible or do I have to work out the calculations manually?

Thanks


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

zeus said:


> My first question: Is there an easy to use calculator available for me to determine if this project is feasible or do I have to work out the calculations manually?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, there is a most wonderful calculator that you can mess with and input all sorts of data. And there even is a S-10 in there among other cars. http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/


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## EVBug (Aug 19, 2008)

I can never get these things to work out right for me. I tried yours hoping it'd work better than Uve's but apparently I'm still not plugging in the right numbers...even remotely.

I ran with a '69 Beetle (mine's 74 but close enough), T-875 batteries, L91-4003 motor etc, etc...and it's saying I should be getting like 9 miles to 80% DOD at 50 miles per hour. I do much better than that in real life.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Try adjusting the rolling resistance to 0.0015 and the incline to 0.6. Those seem to be the real-life numbers that I came up with after comparing literally a hundred small EVs.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

What does that mean when you say incline is 1 or 0.6? I have one hill in the middle of my commute. In fact my commute is basically uphill halfway and then downhill the other half. There is about an 800 foot elevation change.

I plugged in the following: 

ADC FB-4001A motor
Trojan T-145 batteries
Curtis 1231C controller

and got some encouraging results although they are right about the minimum for my project.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

zeus said:


> What does that mean when you say incline is 1 or 0.6? I have one hill in the middle of my commute. In fact my commute is basically uphill halfway and then downhill the other half. There is about an 800 foot elevation change.
> 
> I plugged in the following:
> 
> ...


The incline is the percent grade in the road. In the calculator setting it to something like 1 -5% is pretty pointless, unless you always drive uphill. The caclulator needs an average because it is estimating the whole trip. I found that 0.6 seems to be a decent average for sedan EVs in moderate hilly areas, maybe also with others.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sounds like an s-10 with 120v worth of 6v batteries would fit the bill.

d


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

Really? An S-10 with 120v of 6v batteries. This is encouraging.

Now the questions start to get a little more difficult. For example, say I wanted to get 50 - 60 miles of range. Can I start with this project and then upgrade something later or do I have to design for the higher range right from the start?

I've heard that hitting 50 mile range with lead acid batteries is tricky and pretty much the upper limit. Is this true?

Also, I think I'm hearing that fully discharging the batteries is not a good idea. (Is that the %DOD field?) With a 30 mile range, I would have to recharge twice a day. This shortens the battery life, right?

Is there a graph somewhere for adding more batteries to extend range? More batteries should give longer range, but at some point it would be too heavy to carry them. Again, is this something that can be done later or do you have to design for it from the beginning.

Thank you everyone for the help.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

zeus said:


> ...Can I start with this project and then upgrade something later or do I have to design for the higher range right from the start?


---
well....
if you go higher voltage later it may well require different controller, charger, fuses, etc. probably simpler to sell the first ev and build another!




zeus said:


> .
> I've heard that hitting 50 mile range with lead acid batteries is tricky and pretty much the upper limit. Is this true?


with Dc motor, no regen, and lead-acid batteries..... probably true. In 3-5 years, maybe we'll be able to replace the battery pack with LiFeSO4 with same amp-hours and lower weight to get better. You may get better with AC and regen, but at double the cost.




zeus said:


> Also, I think I'm hearing that fully discharging the batteries is not a good idea. (Is that the %DOD field?) With a 30 mile range, I would have to recharge twice a day. This shortens the battery life, right?


discharging lead batreries below 50% starts shortening life, below 80% really eats them up from what I shave read in test reports



zeus said:


> Is there a graph somewhere for adding more batteries to extend range? More batteries should give longer range, but at some point it would be too heavy to carry them. Again, is this something that can be done later or do you have to design for it from the beginning.


the available kWhr are the amp-hours times voltage... pick a reasonable comparable discharge rate like 1-hour, or 90 minutes; what is the battery amp-hr rating at that discharge times pack voltage = total kWhr. But then reduce the gain by 1% per 100 pounds, and you see a diminishing rate of return. Also, you really only have a choice of 6,8,12 volt batteries and typical config for DC of 96, 120, 144 volts. Just remember that the 12v batteries typically have way shorter lifespans.

In your case, if you can use a truck. Go with 6v batteries, and a 120v or 144v battery pack. Try to avoid 'paralysis by analysis'.

I'd say.... pick your best guess... do it... and build a second one if the first isn't what you want!


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## polygonfla (Aug 15, 2008)

EVBug, I ran the following through the calculator; 1969 VW, ADC L91, T-875, Curtis 1231, Volt 144, DOD 80%, no onboard charger, 500 lbs removed, 600 lbs added, incline 0.6, wind 0, *Tires 165-80-15*, resistances rolling 0.002, breaks 0.003, steering 0.09, KWH 20.

I came up with a 50mph range of 32 miles, is this more accurate for your real life experience?

I think the key here is remembering to put in the actual tires that are on the donor car.

I looked up the rolling resistances for various tires and found this; bicycle 0.0085-0.009,
Bridgestone GM EV-1 0.008 compact car radial 0.002 and typical SUV 0.015. So I used the 0.002 figure for a beetle.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

DTBaker, Thanks for the excellent information.

Yeah, I know about paralysis by analysis, however I have to avoid paralysis by WAF (wife appreciation factor).

Actually based on the information I've gotten here, I'm actively looking for an appropriate S-10 in the Los Angeles area. I've seen a few ads this week and I'm contacting the owners. Hopefully, I'll be able to get one this weekend. Otherwise I'll keep looking for a good candidate.

I think there is quite a bit I can do while finalizing the actual battery, motor, controller decisions.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I think the guys at ampmobiles.com have done a bunch of s-10s. you might be able to get a real solid idea of motor, controller, battery config.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

OK, I've got a few S-10's to look at this weekend. One promising candidate is a small V-6. I didn't know Chevy made a V-6 S-10 but apparently they do. It's a 4-speed without a lot of power features.

Is there any problem using the V-6 model as the donor car as long as it's a manual transmission?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

You might wanna check with CanEV.com to make sure they have a template for that transmission. They can do it regardless, but you'd have to send the bell housing if they haven't done one before.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

I tried hard to get the donor vehicle this weekend. I had four good possibilities but one was sold before the weekend and the other three all fell through for one reason or another. 

I had the chance to clean out the garage a bit to make room for this project which was probably good anyway and to crunch the numbers some more. 

All of a sudden inexpensive S-10 are rare!


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

Well, my project is now officially underway. I picked up a 1985 S-10 for a thousand dollars last weekend. It has a nice straight body and no noticeable damage to the frame. It looks like it had the frond bumper and some sheet metal replaced. 

It's a 2.5L 4 cyl 4speed. It actually runs pretty well for its age. I got it weighed on the way home and it was 2,680 pounds with 1,600 on the front and 1,080 on the rear.

Over the weekend I got it up on the stands and carefully inspected everything underneath. It looks OK. I pulled the radiator and fan shroud and now I have some room to work on disconnecting everything.

Can I insert a picture here?


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

zeus said:


> Can I insert a picture here?


Zeus,

Yes... you can either attach photos to the post, or you can include links or images.

To attach photos to the post, click "Post Reply" and then scroll down below the reply box and click "Manage Attachments".

If you have the photos shared online, such as at Flickr or Photobucket or similar, those services typically have a way for you to copy the full "BBCode" to display your image in a forum, or you can copy/paste the link to the photos.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

OK Let me give it a try. I'll try to post a current picture. I attached a picture of the truck and one of the engine. We'll see how it shows up when I post.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

They turned out small- looks like you scanned them? Need to crop out all the white space. Easy enough, depending on what photo manipulation program you're using. I really like Polyview for the simple stuff, if you're on Windows. It's a free download, free to use, but it's shareware so it will nag you to send some money when you shut it down.

You can load those pics in polyview, select the "red square" tool from the upper left corner, drag a box to the edges of the actual photo, and then select "Crop" from the "Edit" menu up top, and it will cut the photo off that "big white sheet".

Since the forum reduces the size of the attachments that are sent, having all that extra white space reduces what we actually get to see in the attachment.

But... looks like a good truck!


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

Well, I'm deep into the "ugly" part of the project. I have the engine removed and separated from the transmission. Everything is covered with a 1/4 inch of grime. I've cleaned the transmission and now working on the engine compartment.

I have a dumb question. Inside the engine compartment, there are flexible "mud guard" things attached to the fenders. These are shot and they're in the way. What are they called so I can search online to buy replacements? (When I search for mud guard or engine guards I get other products.)


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

zeus said:


> Well, I'm deep into the "ugly" part of the project. I have the engine removed and separated from the transmission. Everything is covered with a 1/4 inch of grime. I've cleaned the transmission and now working on the engine compartment.
> 
> I have a dumb question. Inside the engine compartment, there are flexible "mud guard" things attached to the fenders. These are shot and they're in the way. What are they called so I can search online to buy replacements? (When I search for mud guard or engine guards I get other products.)


on my car, the factory manual calls them splach guards.. I have a Ford, but I'm sure they're called pretty much the same thing by any manufaturer. btw, you should be able to buy a premade adapter and coupler for that S10 off the shelf..


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

Yay! I installed the motor over the past weekend. Now I'm making some progress.

Thanks again to everyone who answered my questions.

My wife decided she didn't like the name "Zeus" for the electric car project and my friend at work suggested "El Ohmbre." I know there is already an "ohmbre" project out there but I thought this would still be OK.

So the new name (at least for now) is El Ohmbre. I build a quick website with a few pictures at http://www.elohmbre.com. I've got a few more pictures to add and more people to thank.

I'm beginning work on the battery boxes now.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

zeus said:


> I have a dumb question. Inside the engine compartment, there are flexible "mud guard" things attached to the fenders. These are shot ...


you might want to just trim them.... and consider buying a sheet of 1/8" black ABS plastic sheet and making a bottom splash sheet. ABS will be heat-formable and should hold up pretty well. Thats my plan at least. 

d


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

zeus said:


> Yay! I installed the motor over the past weekend. Now I'm making some progress.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who answered my questions.
> 
> ...


Mine is OHMer... I really like El OHMbre!! I wish I had thought of that.

Or just OHMbre... actually, Ford OHMbre sounds pretty good

"I drive a Ford OHMbre zx2EV" yeah.... Well, don't want to steal your name.


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## zeus (Aug 28, 2008)

*el ohmbre battery boxes*

I've got the motor fully installed now with the front mounting bracket completed.

I'm completing the wooden part of the battery boxes this weekend and I've order most of the electronics.

I'm ready to start on the battery box framework. This is an S-10 and most of the batteries are going under the pickup bed. 

Has anyone ever attempted to make the battery box framework out of aluminum to save weight? My friend who is a mechanical engineer thinks that if I bolt the metal framework to the plywood battery boxes, it will be strong enough and save some weight. I'm a little nervous about using aluminum. 

I'm planning to use 1 1/2 inch angle iron (or aluminum) 3/16 inch thickness. Logest member is 50 inches holding 5, 70 pound batteries with two supports along the way. Should be good, but I'm thinking that overbuilding is better. However, range is going to be a challenge for me.

Anyone ever use aluminum?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: el ohmbre battery boxes*

I am using mostly 1x1x.125 steel angle iron for the edges of the boxes, and plan to line with 1/4 thick polyproplyene. I just finished the rear rack, which holds 6 batteries and it supported around the edges. I can tell ya that it is rock solid with no flex when I jump up and down on the middle rail even without the liner.

I would say you would probably be fine with 1x1x.125 aluminum, especially with panels to stiffen it up. Most people probably use steel just because it is cheaper and easier to weld.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I used aluminum for the trunk batt box frame and for the front-most rack in the motor compartment.. they are both very solid. Go to my car domain site and on one of the build pages, there are a lot of pics and even a video about the batt box and racks.. The aluminum frame for the trunk box weighs only around 15lbs (as I recall) and holds the wooden box and 7 65lb batts.


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