# Shiva hit the road.....



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Nice video clip of first test on Shiva. Wow looking cool.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4-UDNy9kQI


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

CALBs? Discharge?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Looks nice though. Shiva will definitely be starving. Might be a good idea to run the motor cables together also.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

What blowers are they using?


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

somanywelps said:


> CALBs? Discharge?


Please use more words. Are you saying that CALBs suffer a discharge problem? Are you asking how many amps they get? Hard to tell. Please elaborate.

The car has more power than traction, so not sure I would say the controller is "starving". Not maxed out is different than starving.

I say nice job.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Please use more words. Are you saying that CALBs suffer a discharge problem? Are you asking how many amps they get? Hard to tell. Please elaborate.
> 
> The car has more power than traction, so not sure I would say the controller is "starving". Not maxed out is different than starving.
> 
> I say nice job.


Definitely a nice job. 
Calb's will only do about 8C maybe 8.5 and they need to be warm to do that. So, 200ah cells will give you 1600 amps or so. Roughly half of Shiva's capability. Just seems like an odd match. . however, they have other battery plans so, it's just a start. As for traction, it's likely the wheel spinning was purposeful. Of course this can be solved if desired. . . where current limitations are a bit tougher.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> only do about 8C [/QOUTE]
> ONLY 8C!! my how times have changed. 3C used to be considered a lot.
> 
> 
> ...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ruckus said:


> DIYguy said:
> 
> 
> > only do about 8C [/QOUTE]
> ...


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> yes, times have changed. Now lipo is looking at 130C and higher.
> 
> ACtually, the comment about RWD is pretty much off base for dragging. RWD makes the best dragsters. Mate's car with the 11hv was putting 650hp to the wheels or something like that. Keeping this amount of power stuck on RWD is easy done. Many burnout shows are done on purpose. Brake stands, line lock, slight quick turn of the steering etc. Cars much fast than mates have no problem sticking. Even John Waylands Datsun running 15" DOT radials (street tires) runs low 10's. Quite a bit faster than Mate's at the time. John Metric, Shawn Lawless and Olly's Black Current all run 9 seconds with RWD. Of course ICE RWD cars are running much faster . . . in this discussion, it's not so important what is generating the power. Sticking 1000 hp is easy done with the right RWD set up.
> 
> For Rally driving sure... 4wd. . but this was not the discussion.... I don't think...


Did you mean 13C or 130C?

1. Pikes Peak is definitely rally conditions. It is not a drag car. (although it would probably turn a pretty good time).

2. Even a stock DSM will leave any Corvette on the line. That is why they hold so many track records in their class. 4wd IS better for launching. Sure, 2wd can try to compensate with HUGE non-DOT tires that you can't use on the street. 

3. Did you see the vid of the EV Camaro spinning its (huge) tires off the line and then loosing control and rolling? Classic 2wd failure.

Sure, a carefully built 2wd car can perform well, but 4wd is better in almost every situation. I think their BMW looks fantastically fast, I was just sayin it would be faster (in almost every race condition) if it was a 4wd model.

Cheers


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Did you mean 13C or 130C?
> 
> 1. Pikes Peak is definitely rally conditions. It is not a drag car. (although it would probably turn a pretty good time).
> 
> ...


I meant 130C and 150C even. 

You're right about Pikes Peak, I forgot that was what the car was for. I don't know much about it, but I know it's not a drag race. lol

As for drag racing, no. Not true. Ron's car had issues at the time. All the top dragsters use RWD. When a car is set up for drag racing, all the weight transfer renders the front wheel drive nothing but extra weight and parasitic losses. Sure you would set up a 4WD drag car differently wrt to weight distribution.. . but it won't gain u anything.. . just loose you time. It was experimented with going back to the 60's. That's not to say that 4 wd or even front wheel drive cars cant be fast at the drag strip! But if you took the best time from any 4wd car in a drag race, removed all the front wheel drive stuff, set it up for rwd weight transfer, it would be lighter, more efficient and faster.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Sure, a carefully built 2wd car can perform well, but 4wd is better in almost every situation. I think their BMW looks fantastically fast, I was just sayin it would be faster (in almost every race condition) if it was a 4wd model.
> 
> Cheers


Every situation _*except*_ cornering, braking, efficiency, _*and*_ acceleration above fairly slow speeds. 4wd or AWD only helps acceleration when you are traction limited which for all but the most extreme horsepower cars is sub 30mph. Subarus and DSM's can be made fast, but they are far from a dominant force in most types of motorsports especially drag racing. Pikes Peak is paved this year so it isn't Rally like anymore. After saying all of that, I think two 11HV motors in parallel but driving opposite ends of the car with a Shiva and a beefy battery pack would be a hell of a car.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Not sure we are on topic, but if the topic is Pikes Peak racing, I think 4wd will dominate even if the course is paved. Lots of technical twisty hairpins is where 4wd rally cars dominate. 

I am thinking you guys aren't big WRC fans? The field has been totally dominated for the last 30+ years by Audi, Mitsubishi, and Subaru. All 4wd. 

Where are the 2wd cars? Not in the winners circle.

Ask Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari. Their best cars are 4wd too. Porsche developed their 959 4wd to fill Group B specs. Only 4wd could put the power down.

Forget all the primitive driveshafts, you would really rather have 2 hub motors vs. 4? That is a no-brainer. 4 is better.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Lol-I think we are waaay off topic. I am very aware of WRC. My wife's last two daily drivers have been a Bugeye WRX and now a WRX wagon. Rally is a very specific situation that has little similarity to a paved race track or the street. Handling is negatively influenced by the vast majority of AWD systems the majority of the time. They either plow miserably or have to be tossed around corners rally style to get around which is not the fastest way around a paved track. Braking is also negatively influenced. Your antilock cant work each wheel to its maximum traction because the action of the other wheels is transferred through the drivetrain. They can be fast despite their flaws and they often can come out of corners harder, but an equivalent rwd car will get around a race track faster. Porsche is a whole different conversation with their awd cars. They use too many computers and clutches in the driveline to consider them a standard AWD system. 

I would love an electric motor driving each wheel with variable power based on the need, but now we are getting into Rimac price levels.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Lol-I think we are waaay off topic. I am very aware of WRC. My wife's last two daily drivers have been a Bugeye WRX and now a WRX wagon. Rally is a very specific situation that has little similarity to a paved race track or the street. Handling is negatively influenced by the vast majority of AWD systems the majority of the time. They either plow miserably or have to be tossed around corners rally style to get around which is not the fastest way around a paved track. Braking is also negatively influenced. Your antilock cant work each wheel to its maximum traction because the action of the other wheels is transferred through the drivetrain. They can be fast despite their flaws and they often can come out of corners harder, but an equivalent rwd car will get around a race track faster. Porsche is a whole different conversation with their awd cars. They use too many computers and clutches in the driveline to consider them a standard AWD system.
> 
> I would love an electric motor driving each wheel with variable power based on the need, but now we are getting into Rimac price levels.


Ford did a study for the F-150 4 x 4 said it would cost less with 4 motors then it's present drive train .Are you implying racing is affordable to 99% ?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Every situation _*except*_ cornering, braking, efficiency, _*and*_ acceleration above fairly slow speeds. 4wd or AWD only helps acceleration when you are traction limited which for all but the most extreme horsepower cars is sub 30mph. Subarus and DSM's can be made fast, but they are far from a dominant force in most types of motorsports especially drag racing. Pikes Peak is paved this year so it isn't Rally like anymore. After saying all of that, I think two 11HV motors in parallel but driving opposite ends of the car with a Shiva and a beefy battery pack would be a hell of a car.


drag racing special coating for the track, bleached tires , isn't 4x4 and traction control outlawed .


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

If you're not running slicks AWD is awesome for dragging if your drivetrain is built to take it. This car held the street modified class for many years. I think it was the street modified class anyway. Whatever class it was he dominated it for a long long time

http://www.youporn.com/?page=2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVFH6vxpkUo

Generally though RWD is best for paved tracks. Poorly paved, unpaved, snow, etc AWD wins hands down.

well my face is red.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

jeremyjs said:


> If you're not running slicks AWD is awesome for dragging if your drivetrain is built to take it. This car held the street modified class for many years. I think it was the street modified class anyway. Whatever class it was he dominated it for a long long time
> 
> http://www.youporn.com/?page=2
> 
> Generally though RWD is best for paved tracks. Poorly paved, unpaved, snow, etc AWD wins hands down.


Might want to check your clipboard before you paste.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

we are looking at 1000 hp + or soon will be .


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Yikes. Nice clipboard. Anyway, watch this and skip to minute 24 if you must and hear how Group B and 4wd changed Rally forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mewziTaXDJA

Thanks to those who see the light..


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

1000hp is past the point where street traction is overwhelmed by power with 2wd. I must concede that a hill climb car with that much power would probably be better off with AWD. Direct driving each end separately with the motors in parallel should give limited slip type behavior under throttle without the negative effects on braking and cornering usually associated with connected AWD systems. The negatives I see would be losing the gearing advantage of the transmission and not having the ability to steer the rear of the car with the throttle. Whatever you guys do it is awesome. I love the E36 chassis and it makes for a great race car. I am excited to see the Shiva start to show up in motorsports. I expect many an EV record to be broken by that beast.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> Are you implying racing is affordable to 99% ?


Not in the slightest (although I focus most of my efforts on the GRM $20xx challenge so it can be). I am merely suggesting that the vast majority of people designing an electric race car are going to to slap a motor on a transmission and go from there. The next step up is either using a different transmission or direct drive. The next step up would be direct drive on opposite ends of the car. The next level of difficulty would be dual motors RWD with each driving an axle through belt or gear drive. Then comes 4 motors driving 4 axles AWD through gears or belts. Then if you can capture and sell some unicorn farts and build stuff out of imaginationonium you use a hub motor at each wheel. None of it is impossible, just more difficult and expensive with every step you take and sometimes not enough benefit to be worth the effort. 

The car is awesome. It should be a hoot to watch with all that power.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

ruckus said:


> Yikes. Nice clipboard. Anyway, watch this and skip to minute 24 if you must and hear how Group B and 4wd changed Rally forever.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mewziTaXDJA
> 
> Thanks to those who see the light..


If were going to do rally clips we can't get any more on topic than this one: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-K1B4sTX4o


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

My only question is who is doing the driving?

If they have enough battery the car should be one of the most powerful EV's there, but who's going to get it up the "hill" in one piece?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Nascar veteran Boris Said is driving for EV West. That said, when it comes to Pikes Peak there is Nobuhiro "Monster" Tajima, and then there is everybody else. You could force Tajima to drive a Zamboni up the hill and he'd still have a good shot at taking the crown... Unfortunately, Tajima is slated to drive a prototype EV being built by APEV and not a Zamboni. No word yet on the specs of the Team APEV entry, or even whether it runs yet or not!?!


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Boris Said? That's awesome! The man was an incredible road racer before he went to Nascar. This year should be spectacular for EV's on the Peak. There are several beastly electric cars and most come with hard hitting drivers. I am excited. Please take as much video as possible.


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If were going to do rally clips we can't get any more on topic than this one:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-K1B4sTX4o


Love It!! 

Actually, -I can drive like that. umm, yup. Just give me the car and I'll show you how it's done.  

What? you don't believe me? Hand over those keys.. 

I said GIVE ME THE CAR!  don't you trust me?


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