# Building a drift car



## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Hi sidewaysrules,

First of all, I welcome you to the forum. That's a nice project.

To get a general understanding of most of the concepts, you'll need to read the wiki of this site : http://www.diyelectriccar.com/wiki/ It's really usefull as it gives a lot of informations.

About your project, you'll need to see how much money you want to spend in it. It'll be costly, but it depends on the size of your pockets and eventually your sponsors. It'll surely go beyond 20k$ I think...

Technically about it, here are firsts thoughts. Please keep them as a start of a discussion and not absolutes :

- Pick a light RWD car as a 240SX, BMW 3 series, etc. You'll add a lot of weight to it so start light first.

- 500Hp is usually scam as it's the peak rating of the ICE motor. You'll need to put this in perspective as you'll be working with continuous HP ratings.

- Don't bother with AC, the best power-to-weight ratio is from big DC motors. Check the WARP11HV from EVComponents. Also, by choosing DC, you'll just cancel watercooling of the motor as they can't use it. DC motors have a trendemous amount of torque from 0 RPM, that's what you'll want. You could put two of them in series to double the power, it's costly and slightly more complicated but has already been done with great success. (Look for White Zombie electric drag car)

- Regenerative braking : you plan to brake with your motor?  With your rear wheels spinning, you won't need it...

- About the controller, you've got two main choices for high power ones : The Zilla serie and the Soliton1. Get info on them as they're the only ones with a power output suitable to racing application.

- About batteries, let's say you wanna keep running 20mins, you'll be decharging them at 3C (because 1C = 60min of battery life). The battery technologies allowing this kind of discharge are only high power LiFePo4 batteries : Headways and A123. Get info on them.

Get some info and continue to discuss your ideas here, it's an interesting build. Keep in mind what I said above are only firsts thoughts, ask for more points of view on this.

Dalardan


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## sidewaysrules (Feb 27, 2010)

thanks I am going to use lithion ion batteries, I have budgeted $20-$30 K the engines and batteries,controler etc
Who makes the motors and where can I buy them etc, Basicly I need lots of power and torque, your advice is appreciated, I am located in Souther California
Leon


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Any NetGain motors dealer will sell the highvoltage warp 11, along with all the others they have, including dual motor setups.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

I'd recommend looking at this site too http://www.proev.com/, its not a drift car but still a electric racer.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Here are the 2 fastest NEDRA racers:

http://www.killacycle.com/

http://www.currenteliminator.net/


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

For a high power setup, you can look also at CroDriver's projects. He is playing with big electrical toys and plan to drift/circuithis dual motored car.

Just running numbers for the fun...

1x Warp11HV = $3 500 + shipping
1x Soliton1 = $3 000 + shipping
90s10p Headway 10Ah batteries = $17 000 + shipping (200HP cont., 450 peak)

For the controller, there are also the Zilla option and the Netgain one witch are in the same price range with somehow different features. You should check them. 

For the batteries, I quoted Headways from EVComponents, but you could find somewhere A123s and Kokam. The two laters can have a higher power density, but I can't give you a source for them.

For the motor, EVComponents and EV-Propulsion sells it at the same price and seems to both have a good website. I don't think you can get something with a higher power density. For the price, it'll be the same everywhere.

As you can see, it can be quite expensive... especially the batteries. You then could want to stack dual Warp11HV motors as PlasmaBoy did with Warp8 for the White Zombie. You'll then need to calculate well the battery requirements as I'm not sure about how I sized the pack.

I'm just saying numbers for the fun, try to get inputs from the electrical racing community.

Dalardan


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

damn I love this forum  
And all the great info I get here.

I`m going to start build myself a Electric car.
I want to use it to Drag\Drifting\To work and home again..

I KNOW it will cost me 2-3 years maybe.. But this is a dream been in my head since I was a kid, so I know for sure I would not quit until it`s done 


I got some random question, maybe I can ask them in this thread..
If you take a car like the White Zombie that drag as hell on the strip.
Can you turn down the volt and use the car daily to get at work?
Like 10-15min trip ? 

And what about race cars, will it be possible to use a car on the track?
The track is 4km long, it takes 2min around the track, how long can I run on regular batteries (30x12volt 17ah \360V) 

Thanx


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Hi liteglow and welcome to the forum,

About turning down the volts, I wouldn't go that way simply because it's useless. Simply have a lighter foot  Some (crazy) people drive 1000HP gassers as their daily driver...

For the range, well, you can calculate it using EV calculators found on the web. I'd guess the energy consomation would be around 300kW/mile (conservative driving). The 360V 17Ah pack you proposed (Looks like half White Zombie's one...), would get you 6.3kW of energy to full discharge. Being a lead acid pack, you'd not want to go below 50% DoD, so it would be around 3kW of usable energy. This translate to 10 miles, not that much. Plasmaboy says that he runs his car to and from the race track, with recharge at the track. Don't think you could do so without recharging at the track.

For your intend, I'd look into lithium solutions. More expensive, but having a higher power density and energy density than lead acid.

Dalardan


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi , thank you 

Yes the AH I did calculate was because I did found some "ok" batteries I can buy here in Norway.
If I double the Ah I will also double the weight.
And that is maybe not a must, to drive 10 more miles.
A car with less weight would be better on drag and track racing.

Yes recharge at the raceway is something that I will do for sure !
But I would love to drive my car at work every day in the summer 
And charge it at work.. (it only take me 3min to drive 2 work) !

Lithium batteries is a MUST after some time.
But when I have a very limited budget, i think it`s best to concentrate on the most important things first !

The white zombie is for sure an inspiration for me.
But how hard is it to get a EL car converted to go that fast from a beginner?
Maybe not the WORLD fastest car, but faster than the Skyline that drive pretty fast on the strip.

As you understand when I say "Hi I going to build myself a El-car" , every damn friend I have stop and stare at me like I was an 80year old man going to use a electric wheelchair !!

So when I first going to build a EV it must be so fast that it can win a Street-Legal drag  if you understand me correct..


What about DYNO testing a EL car, as I know the motor will get hot when the RPM will get to high on a bench maybe ?


EDIT: As I also have many RC cars that drive on Lithium Battery, I know the battery from china is quite cheap.
is it not possible to order allot of LiPo cells from China and build a powerful Lithium pack to the car?


Cheers


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Just for another source of inspiration, look out for Crazyhorse Pinto, another great electric dragster. He said somewhere that for $20k, he built his car and got a trailer and a truck to tow it. It's a dual motor beast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0LSml0JTI

As you can see, it can go on the dyno 

About your build, keep something in mind : you can only have two between power, range and low cost. For your concern, I'd cut range...

For charging at the track, here is what Plasmaboy does : he brings with him a much larger battery pack that he simply plugs in parallel to his high power in car pack, therefore "dumping" loads on energy back in the car. Be sure to know what you're doing if you take this route, but it's the only way now to get a fast recharge as I know.

For LiPo cells, if you've done RC builds, you do know that they can catch fire. For the sake of security, talk with other guys before going this route. LiFePo chemistry is more stable.

I'm just talking, double check everything I say with others!

Dalardan


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanx for the tip 

Yes I know the hard way that Lipo is pretty dangerous.
One of my battery did overcharge and explode in my room :\
Lucky the fire alarm did go off after some second!!


My other question while you was talking about charging, how long time would the white zombie car use to charge it up from 10-20% to 100% ?
Hours, days ?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

White Zombie is street legal and sometimes driven on the street. You can make something that is both long range and fast.

Figure an Optima has about 7 kW per battery... for about 30 seconds! With lead acid you would only be good for one fast lap. You'd need lithium to go fast for multiple laps. There's a reason electric drag racing is popular, you don't need much range.









liteglow said:


> ... If you take a car like the White Zombie that drag as hell on the strip.
> Can you turn down the volt and use the car daily to get at work?
> Like 10-15min trip ?
> 
> ...


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## hipo_ev (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm looking to build something similar (for time attack though) and have a very similar budget ($25K total).

As I understand it, amps get you off the line, and then your traction pack voltage determines the amount of whp available from that point on.

So for proper drift racing, which is actually high speed (talking over 60mph for top level drifters) and not that slow power sliding stuff, you'll definitely need ALOT of volts to be competitive.

At a minimum, you'll want a HV Warp11 or dual 9" motors and a controller with a very high continuous amp rating - which rules out everything except the Zilla 2K (min, HV is better) and the Warp-Drive in 260v/1400a spec (min, 360v/1400a is better). These controllers alone will cost you approx $4.5K USD, and you'll then need to add misc parts for them to work properly (throttles, speed sensors, cooling, etc), and the HV Warp11 or dual 9" will cost another $5K USD - thats approx $10K USD just for the controller and motor(s).

That'll leave you with $10K-$15K for everything else - which is not much considering it'll cost you almost all of that just for your traction pack of LiFePO4 cells. If you went with AGM batteries (eg. Odyssy PC1500), then you'd keep cost down quite a bit, but the weight would be pretty bad and they'd sag quite a bit under full throttle during your drift run - how much that'd impede your desired performance would depend on how long the run went for and how much of the run you did at full throttle.

Various traction pack setups using different battery/cell options:
40x Odyssy PC1500
Pack weight: 889KG
Cycle life: 400times @ 80% DOD
Cost: ~$10K USD
Performance of PC1500 wired in 2P20S (based on battery specs):
Nominal: 120V
65 amps continuous
2,200 amps for 20 seconds
3,000 amps for 5 seconds

70x Skyenergy SE180AH
Pack weight: 392KG
Cycle life: ≥2000Times
Cost: ~$18.5K USD
Performance of SE180AH wired in 2P35S (based on battery specs):
Nominal: 119V
1440A continuous (C4)
3600A continuous (C10 for 5s)

70x Skyenergy SE130AH
Pack weight: 308KG
Cycle life: ≥2000Times
Cost: ~$13.5K USD
Performance of SE130AH wired in 2P35S (based on battery specs):
Nominal: 119V
1040A continuous (C4)
2600A continuous (C10 for 5s)

Not suggesting you go with any of the above, just showing the costs involved and what that cost buys you in cell/battery performance.


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

hipo_ev : that was allot of useful information 
I will study the numbers more in detail later.

Yes what I want to use is Dual8 or 9" motors.
And battery will be whaterver I can afford to get my hands on.


You say it dont cost so much..
Well I got some thoughts in my head.

You can buy a Nissan Skyline 400hp for $ 15k !
And it will run for days and days and days.. just fill petrol on it.

But when it comes to EV car, you can use 1-2 years building it and afford it.
When you start up and run it, you can only run it for 10-15minutes and your out of power (on a track) !!
Then you need to charge it again (for how long?? a day\night) 

So I start to wonder, if it really really worth 20k to run a car ONE drag, or 4 rounds on a track each day?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

If you have good batteries you can recharge much faster than overnight. The Killacycle recharges its A123 batteries in just minutes between runs. Current Eliminator does likewise with Hawker lead acid batteries. By towing I was able to recharge my batteries in just minutes (read about that here: http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/2009saltflats/ ).

Is it worth it? Obviously you can go faster for cheaper by exploding dinosaurs. Here are a couple of thoughts that add some value to the EV side of the equation, though:


You'll be able to better hear what your tires are doing with an EV, so you'll be able to corner a bit harder and more consistently. I had come to depend on tire noise in my quiet car, and had to relearn how to keep the car on the edge when I got a car with a loud exhaust.
The electric has a falling torque curve, giving it inherent traction control. Motor speeds up, torque drops, so wheels get traction again. This gives it an advantage against turbo cars with their rising torque curve.
I find it great fun to beat a "faster" car with a "slower" car. It just kills the Porsche and WRX guys when I beat them with a Camaro around corners... I'm looking forward to even greater fun doing that with an electric.
People seem to be really interested in the electric. If I mention I race my gas car, I get polite interest. If I mention my electric car, I get true interest and lots of questions.
I'll get to drive in the carpool lane, and won't have to hassle with emission inspections.
More and more race tracks are imposing noise limits.
In my case, I'm doing my conversion for less than the cost of a high end engine rebuild (Porsche). I spend about $6/day now for gas, that'll drop to about 80 cents a day for electricity. Battery replacement will be about $9/day if I go 1 year, and about $4.50 per day if they go 2 years. So I'm not really saving money, and certainly would spend less if I got an economy car -- but comparing sports car to sports car it's financially competitive.











liteglow said:


> hipo_ev : that was allot of useful information
> I will study the numbers more in detail later.
> 
> Yes what I want to use is Dual8 or 9" motors.
> ...


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## hipo_ev (Mar 4, 2010)

liteglow said:


> You say it dont cost so much..
> Well I got some thoughts in my head.


? 

If you have a read again of my post, I said the motor and controller will cost you around $10K USD and the other $10-15K will barely buy you enough batteries/cells to achieve the power you will need to drift competitively.

If you had $30K-$40K USD just for cells, then you could buy an A123 pack and use it and you'd definitely have the cells needed to make the power you need. But you only have $25K to do build the whole car 



liteglow said:


> You can buy a Nissan Skyline 400hp for $ 15k !
> And it will run for days and days and days.. just fill petrol on it.


Actually that is far from the truth. I have several friends who compete at the national level in drift, and one of those competes in the D1 international event each year. His engine build cost almost double the amount you quote, and his car cost as much as a new apartment to build. Then consider that after each event a team of mechanics go right over the car and ensure that everything is like brand new (ie. fix and replace anything that needs it).

Hopefully you can start to comprehend that the money involved in drifting professionally at a national level goes far beyond a "$15K" engine and just filling up with petrol.

Now if you put the same amount of money and time into building a proper drift EV as professionally drift teams do into building and maintaining their ICE drift cars (read: well over $100K just to build a car that can compete at a national level) then you'd definitely be able to compete, and it'd most likely end up being a cheaper alternative.



liteglow said:


> But when it comes to EV car, you can use 1-2 years building it and afford it.


You can not compare the time required for average Joe to build an EV at home in his spare time to a professional workshop building an ICE car during work hours. 

Again, re: my friends who drift nationally - their cars took almost 6 months to be built from the ground up. And that was with a professional race workshop working 5 days a week and them working on the cars almost every weekend.



liteglow said:


> When you start up and run it, you can only run it for 10-15minutes and your out of power (on a track) !!
> Then you need to charge it again (for how long?? a day\night)


As mentioned above, recharge time depends on cells used. If you were going to compete professionally in an EV, you wouldn't bother buying the cheap prismatic cells I mentioned, you'd go straight to A123 and get a suitably sized pack for your needs. If the pack was designed properly, you'd be able to do the 2-3 runs required in each round of a Drift event and then after you'd do a top-up fast charge (again using a suitable charger, as well as a generator if required) and be ready again for the next run.

You want to use it for drift, then you have to have the right equipment to ensure it will function correctly in that environment. Much like a race team needs specific things to ensure their cars function correctly each race.

If it was just a cheap EV road car, then you wouldn't need any of that, you'd get a traction pack suitable to cover your daily travel needs and then charge every night when you went to bed. Then the next morning, you'd get up, disconnect the charge cord and then be on your way again for another day of trouble free, emissions free, EV driving 



liteglow said:


> So I start to wonder, if it really really worth 20k to run a car ONE drag, or 4 rounds on a track each day?


If you are wondering this, then you are looking at it the wrong way (plus you don't really understand the real cost of running an ICE drift car competitively).

You don't build an EV just for performance and then complain about costs - you build an EV because they are emissions free, they don't rely on crude oil, they require less maintenance (obviously depends on the build quality of the EV and the use of the EV), and it is just a good thing to do for the environment and community where you live.

Sure the costs are high, but those benefits are worth the cost to all who build an EV. Saving money, although everyone wants to, is not generally as high a priority as being green 

Saying that, you can save quite a bunch of money owning an EV over a gas guzzling ICE if you build the EV for just that reason - but you are looking to build a very high performance EV, so you shouldn't even be considering it from a money savings stand point.

Also, high costs are going to be with high performance EVs for a while to come, because high performance cells are so expensive. When the market opens up a little more and there are a lot more reliable manufacturers of high performance cells, then the price will drop and it'll be much cheaper.

Lastly, a nationally competitive EV drift car is definitely possible with the right budget, and would do wonders for highlighting the potential of EV cars and educating the old ICE brigade - just understand to do that you'll need a real budget.

For you personally, you may be better off lowering your expectations a tad, and building the best you can for your budget. The car would still offer reasonable performance, it just wouldn't be able to compete with professional drift racers for $25K.

Regards
hipo_ev


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

Hipo_Ev : Thanx for the reply.
Dont forget that I`m on your side 
I will for sure build a EV car..
When I ask why to build one, it`s not only because I need to know it.
But also that I have more answers to give when other start to ask my why I does bother to buy.
I also need some damn good arguments when my girl start to ask me where all the money is gone  haha

But I think you maybe got something wrong here, it was not me that started this thread.
I dont have 25K $ to spend 
I actually only have $2k today, and I will save every money I have each month to afford building a EV car!
That is almost 700-900$ each month.
And I will save my vacation money from this summer and the next to use on a car.. 

So I dont think my project will be completed until next year maybe! 

That`s why I ask about using all my savings to build an EV, instead of buying a Skyline that cost half the money!
i have 3-4 friends that have a Skyline each, imported from Japan.
And they only refill gas, and change tires for the last 4 years now!

And I will not compete in any competitions, only hobby use !
I live close to one of the best Race track in the world, and can use it for free 

But to be the fastest street-legal car would be worth every penny used..
And when people see that is running on batteries it will for sure be damn nice feeling !!! after everyone had said it will never be possible.

That is why I want to start out with the best motors in the first place!
Build a car that goes slower than a 1.6 Civic VTi is not worth anything 

This is maybe off topic..

But I also want to be able to use my car as a drift car if that is possible!
I only wonder about the battery that weight so much in the back .


Another question, can I reduce the power from 360volt to half in paralell?
And use the car in the city , double the milage to drive??


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's a common misconception. In a gasoline car, you generally worsen the fuel economy for more power, even if driving gently. In an EV, you don't. Yes, the faster EV might weigh 5% more, but bigger motors and higher voltages tend to be slightly more efficient. So go ahead a run the batteries in series, you won't get worse range than if you ran buddy-pairs for 1/2 the voltage.


liteglow said:


> ... Another question, can I reduce the power from 360volt to half in paralell? And use the car in the city , double the milage to drive??


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## liteglow (Mar 2, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> That's a common misconception. In a gasoline car, you generally worsen the fuel economy for more power, even if driving gently. In an EV, you don't. Yes, the faster EV might weigh 5% more, but bigger motors and higher voltages tend to be slightly more efficient. So go ahead a run the batteries in series, you won't get worse range than if you ran buddy-pairs for 1/2 the voltage.


Thank you for the answer


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Happy to help. Of course, same range means same driving, and not going faster as high voltage could enable!


liteglow said:


> Thank you for the answer


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## sidewaysrules (Feb 27, 2010)

thanks guys Great info, is their anyone in Southern california that is building electric cars that i could brain storm with?? and help me??
I still have questions, I may build the car for Pikes peak instead of drifting, 
The hill climb is many hairpins after long straights and is 12.42 miles, My thoughts are to use regenerative braking to keep the battery weight down, is this even possible??
Also how many batteries would you need if you strapped 2 motors together to produce 700hp, also AC or DC, sorry I am slowly coming up to speed, We are finishing the chassis build and will make a decision re drift or pikes peak soon so any and all help is appreciated
thanks
leon Styles
www.sidewaysrules.com


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## volksracer (Mar 22, 2010)

Ok, after checking out your site, I think you have a good chassis set up Subaru GD/Evo or something similar, however in terms of motors, Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) and Electric motors (EM) are not apples and apples, not even apples and oranges. I don't know if you have worked with rotary engines before but, that's the closest ICE comparison we've got. The linear power curve of the rotary and it's similarity to a shunt wound motor is about where similarities begin and end. As a long time mechanic and ICE guy I recommend that you find some material on "electric motor theory" and for a good basic perspective of conversion and build process you pick up a copy of "how to build an electric vehicle" the book is a great reference and a good starting point for building EV's and understanding the principles behind electric vehicles. Electric motors are fundementally different as you'll find out. I also have learned it's not HP is HP in electric motors. HP as we all know is a derived measure of power between motor rpm and the torque it is producing. to be more precise HP = Torque X RPM/5252. Now if we briefly manipulate this equation we begin to see some relationships between rpm and torque and it's relationship to HP. basically what I'm getting at is HP is not really the dominating measuring stick In the EV world. Look at the torque available in electric motors and your eyes will be opened as to where the power is. As for the Ev drift concept full torque available in EM's will spin those tires nicely, just make sure your batteries supply enough Volts to push the amps for the torque you need to spin those tires. 

I'm learning just like you, but if you need some help PM me.


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## sidewaysrules (Feb 27, 2010)

Ok so here is my question, We are looking at either 2 warp 7 motors hooked together or a warp 11 high amperage motor
I need aprox 4 minites of max output plus aprox 4 minites of a little output
A typical drift run under full power is 30-45 seconds and I want enough energy to do 5-6 runs
I will be using Litheon ion Phosphate batteries, Aprox how many and what would the weight be that i would need
thanks
Leon


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I attended to a Drift Race a few weeks ago with my EV. I had a little problems with all that weight at the rear of the car but it worked. I didn't have time to work on the suspension so I wasn't competitive but I was able to make a few laps for show. And that's all you can do with an EV on a Drift Race. You don't have enough battery energy to drive as much as the gasoline competitors. And I definatley wouldn't risk my hard work on the battery pack and all the money spent on it for a quick charge with a parallel pack. I doubt that John Wayland will keep doing that with his new Li-Poly pack.

I'll be better prepared for the next drift race so maybe we can expect some proper EV drifting


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

sidewaysrules said:


> Ok so here is my question, We are looking at either 2 warp 7 motors hooked together or a warp 11 high amperage motor
> I need aprox 4 minites of max output plus aprox 4 minites of a little output
> A typical drift run under full power is 30-45 seconds and I want enough energy to do 5-6 runs
> I will be using Litheon ion Phosphate batteries, Aprox how many and what would the weight be that i would need
> ...


How much money are you willing to spend? My build exceeds $100K by now.

What skills and expirience with electronics/mechanics do you have?

What equipment do you have?

We have a big CNC milling machine for aluminum and plastic, a smaller CNC for steel, 3D scanners, 3D printers, a lot welding equipment, a mechanical engineer specialized for race cars etc. And we used all that equipment/knowledge/experience to make this car. 

You don't really *need* all that but it will take very long without the proper equipment and man force. We built and rebuilt the BMW in one year while John Wayland needs a year just to build in a new batt pack.


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## steve123 (Jul 16, 2010)

*drift car*

Any rear wheel driven car 
its easier to get the car to drift if its lightweight and hasalot of power. 

Read more:-


 lists of cars


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