# EV AC motor Ebay



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Came across this on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Complete-...d=292229612715&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

apparently it "this motor puts out 77HP Peak and 30HP Continuous."

Seems almost too good to be true, surly this wont move a 1000kg car will it???


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

http://www.motenergy.com/mepmwaco.html

Looks legit, but who knows it does 96V and 250amps so 24Kw


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I recognized that type of model designation, and sure enough it was Motenergy when I checked.

Looks like they updated their product line-up with a new water cooled motor:

http://www.motenergy.com/mepmwaco.html

I wish they had a datasheet because I noticed something that should be noteworthy... they have an air-cooled version:

http://www.motenergy.com/mepmbrmo.html

In the description of the website, it claims continuous current of 200A and continuous power of 17 kw. However, if you click on the datasheet below, it says 116A rated and 7.5 kw. Datasheet:

http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-129399866319704/ME1507.pdf

Not sure why there's such a huge discrepancy on that air-cooled model.

I would not be confident using that motor on a full size car for continuous highway speeds. It might get you there, but I skeptical about the continuous power handling.


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## Pessoa (Sep 24, 2017)

Hello, Andre here, from Brasil. I bought the kit. Is legit, heavy and yes the manufacturer description is wrong.

Here some info:

BRUSHLESS DESIGN = 0 maintenance.

POWER: Output Power of 20 kW Continuous, 55 kW Peak 

Features

Quieter Operation 
Improved durability 
High 92% Efficiency 
Smoother acceleration 
Low cogging
Low torque ripple at low speed
NEW Water cooled stators
NEW 3/8" Cooling ports
NEW Sine/cosine speed sensor 
NEW Anodized aluminum

Specifications

- 5 pole motor
- Maximum recommended rotor speed: 6000 RPM 
- Voltage: 48 to 120 VDC input to the control 
- Torque constant of 0.15 Nm per Amp
- Armature Inertia: 45 Kg Cm Squared 
- Current: 250 Amps AC continuous 
- Peak current: 550 Amps AC for 1 minute
- Weight: 48 pounds
- Peak Stall Torque: 134 Nm. 
- Cooling: Water cooled (50% Glycol)
- Includes temperature sensor""


The vendor is awesome. Gonna start my project soon.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Pessoa,

It's good to hear from someone who is actually using this motor. I've been looking for more information about the motor recently as it looks like it might work well with my car.

Did you buy it from the ebay vendor, and have you actually run it on the road yet?

My main concern is with choosing the right controller. Kelly controllers have a bit of a reputation for not delivering the power they promise, and the alternative (and more expensive) Sevcon controllers are difficult/expensive to program.


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## Pessoa (Sep 24, 2017)

Hello, Well, I didn't test yet. And I confess that I was skeptical about it, studied a few days and realised the opportunity could end. 

The motors numbers don't lie, everyone is not sure because is cheaper and smaller
Being brushless and at the same time water-cooled makes it compact. Motenergy wants to go further with this one.
Yes I got from the ebay add above.

If Kelly doesn't deliver I'LL try Curtis.

This is and add for the motor only:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/me1616-brushless-65hp-liquid-cooled-pmac-motor-24-120v.html

Not eBay dough


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Pessoa said:


> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/me1616-brushless-65hp-liquid-cooled-pmac-motor-24-120v.html


"5 pole motor"

good luck.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

dcb - It would be helpful if you could explain for the benefit of non-electrical engineers (like me) why a five-pole motor is a problem.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

magnets come in pole pairs (a north pole and a south pole), so that the number of poles is a multiple of two. So it isn't a good sign when a seller or manufacturer describes it as a 5 pole.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Could it mean 5 "pole pairs" (since it's described as having low cogging)?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Could it mean 5 "pole pairs" (since it's described as having low cogging)?


It is the responsibility of the manufacturer/supplier to supply accurate information. When they do not do that the end user is left misinformed and/or speculating. I don't know where the peak performance data came from for that matter as there is barely any info on the motenergy site, and other important details are missing from the sales site (like cooling requirements).

http://www.motenergy.com/mepmwaco.html

good luck, would like to see how it holds up, but for a fraction of that price one can do a lot better.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

dcb said:


> I don't know where the peak performance data came from for that matter as there is barely any info on the motenergy site, and other important details are missing from the sales site (like cooling requirements).


I agree. I'd also be very interested in any cheaper AC alternatives with similar dimensions.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Sorry for the wall of text, well small motors don't make much torque, so their power comes from rpm, which means possibly additional gear reduction stages (which takes up space) and you need a good amount of space for an affordable battery that can support, say 100 hp, for repeated bursts, plus you need more cells to get the voltage up to support more current at higher rpms, even if the cells have the current capability.

I don't know what this motor is capable of, or what it is being designed for here, but "Complete Electric Car Conversion Kit/Highway Capable" sounds like a stretch, with no data to support those claims.

I know if I had dyno'd it I would sure as hell would share a graph with motor voltage/current, battery current/voltage, shaft torque/rpm and case temp, both continuous and peak, at different voltages, not just make promises. 

Wouldn't you? I don't think they tested it properly, or even got their story straight. 

i.e. lets assume your battery has whatever voltage it needs to supply 550 amps (82nm) at 6000 rpm to the motor, that adds up to 70hp. 82nm (60 ftlbs) is weaksauce though without significant gearing, "ok" for a motorcycle with a 5:1 ratio (300 pounds of thrust, 85mph peak). 

So the kelly is 96v @ 600 amps, but the motor is only 550 peak, so at best it is 70hp. Plus the motor is listed as 50kw @120v so there is an "impedance mismatch", it might do 100hp at 144v&550a for all we know (does curtis do a PM controller for 144v/550a, or only induction?)

*Pessoa*, can you spin the motor at, say 1000 rpm (or a known rpm) and report the ac phase to phase voltage and rpm (no electrical load)? Also can you measure phase to phase resistance, and inductance if possible?


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## Pessoa (Sep 24, 2017)

Yes, I will test it thoroughly 
But I can't right now. For sure I will inform whatever I can.

After my purchase, I contacted motenergy and was promptly answered that clients/companies have their own tests and are confidential ? 

Furthermore they make custom orders, this particular one is 96v and 240/250amp(not sure now) continuous

The cooling recommend is 50/50 water/glicol 6 LPM

I really understand you guys, but the ebay vendor has been outstanding, with all questions I have, with unprecedented support. He will go an extra mile for us, "diy EV's" 

I know it could be more info there. 
I will help with whatever I can, all of you.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Pessoa said:


> I really understand you guys, but the ebay vendor has been outstanding, with all questions I have, with unprecedented support. He will go an extra mile for us, "diy EV's"


That remains for us to see. Does he have any more detailed testing info and motor specifications? Do we know if 96v is battery voltage or rms voltage? What rpm would you see 70hp at? Does it do any field weakening?

I mean until it is validated, everything he says "cough5polecough" could be crap.

controller docs
http://kellycontroller.com/kls96601-8080ips24v-96v600asinusoidal-bldc-motor-controller-p-1386.html
8080ips 96v/600a


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dcb said:


> That remains for us to see. Does he have any more detailed testing info and motor specifications? Do we know if 96v is battery voltage or rms voltage? What rpm would you see 70hp at? Does it do any field weakening?
> 
> I mean until it is validated, everything he says "cough5polecough" could be crap.
> 
> ...


Feature #22 on the controller: Supports motors with any number of poles.

And what's the deal putting a fuse on the controller positive input terminal? Like it's going to protect the controller? The main fuse needs to be in the battery compartment. So a input controller fuse is redundant. Looks like a 32V slow blow anyway.

And that meter shunt on the negative input looks like a real piece of precision; not.

Kelly continues to amaze me; as in a negative way.

major


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## Pessoa (Sep 24, 2017)

Anyways, proven technology is a luxury I can't afford. 
I got this for the money in first place
and what I'm allowed to import to my beloved crappy country

A Japanese guy once told me that Toyota has better cars than Honda. 
When I asked witch one he had, he said a Honda. Why? Because Toyota only uses proven technology but Honda is all ways playing with new stuff.

I guess I'm a Honda guy, even knowing that I wish a Jimny EV a 1060kg Suzuki.

By the way, vendor just said 10 poles and I'm sorry about the info passed before.
I just copy/pasted from that link.

I Accept your "good luck" in my heart, I'll need it.

I guess, you will have to wait for someone to make it become a Toyota.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

meh, would rather get the questions answered than the analogy. I'm a used toyota guy these days  was a used honda guy and every other make imaginable at some point. 
The more you analyze it the less luck you will need


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

major said:


> And what's the deal putting a fuse on the controller positive input terminal? Like it's going to protect the controller? The main fuse needs to be in the battery compartment. So a input controller fuse is redundant. Looks like a 32V slow blow anyway.


Curtis and Sevcon have similar provisions for a fuse on some of their controllers. Maybe it's a safety requirement in some places and/or uses.


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## kevinjclancy (Sep 25, 2017)

I have looked hard at this ME1616 - have a 900 lb Honda city convertible that I need a motor for. It really annoys me that the only way I will ever know if this motor has any chance of working in my car is to spend tons of money and time to do it myself. - more than the money I can not fase the humiliation and wasted time if my car ends up with a top speed of 45 mile an hour.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Hey, Travis here,

I sell this ME 1616 or ME1507 combo with Sevcon Gen4 Size 6. I've sold to a dozen or so customers and so far they're getting good results and have been happy. I program the Sevcon for these motors.
http://www.emf-power.com/

Some information that I got direct from my supplier Motenergy:

The 1507 and 1616 are the same rotor/stator, but the 1507 is air cooled and 1616 is water cooled.

Both designed for 96VDC battery voltage and 650A peak current. Max rotor RPM of 8000RPM. IP65 rated. Sealed ball bearing. Sin/cos encoder. Neodymium magnets with a 150C rating. Designed for field weakening for controllers that support that option. 92% peak efficiency. The number of poles is 10 (5 pole pairs).

Continuous rating for the 1507 (using sevcon gen4) is 157A with a peak of 650A. Torque constant is 0.22Nm/Amp. Peak power is right around 48kW at 600A with a 100VDC supply going to the Sevcon. The 1616 is similar but can withstand for longer duration due to liquid cooling.

I can only comment on the numbers when paired with the Sevcon Gen4. Other controllers might achieve higher results on a dyno.


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## Pessoa (Sep 24, 2017)

Is sad to see posts being deleted.

The eBay vendor has posted here his thoughts explained quite a bit about the motor and defended himself, but got deleted or deleted himself.

Anyways, I got the motor and batteries and everything else.

What is taking some time is the "shell"
I don't see myself driving any kind of car especially with the investment made. 
I have to enjoy it not only being electric but also the "ego" part of it. I hatter wait for the right thing to show up than start with a soso shell just because is cheap or easy to convert. Sorry we have to wait longer.

As I said before, soon as I have it tested I'll post results here. Or not, I still have to ask my guy if he got deleted or deleted himself, if he got deleted by forum admin. Without explanation, I will also leave the forum and post no more.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I've been doing a little digging for information about the ME1616 motor. There's not much information available yet, but I did find out that the air-cooled version – the ME 1507 – is very similar to the 75-7 motor used by Zero motorcycles. Motenergy apparently supplies this motor to Zero.

Like Travis says, when matched with a Sevcon Gen Size 6 controller and 100V battery pack it has a peak output of around 50 kW at just under 4000 rpm. According to the sources I've found (including the Motenergy site) the recommended rev limit is 6000 rpm.

There's an interesting thread on the Endless Sphere forum by a guy who is using the Zero 75-7 motor in an electric race kart. There's video of his dyno run about a third of the way down this page: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=68543&start=75


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## kevinjclancy (Sep 25, 2017)

I really like the ME1616 but one thing really worries me is the super low torque
I can never understand how you can have 22KW of power and ony 32 NM


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

kevinjclancy said:


> I really like the ME1616 but one thing really worries me is the super low torque
> I can never understand how you can have 22KW of power and ony 32 NM


That's 32Nm torque continuous. The peak is like 120Nm.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

kevinjclancy said:


> I really like the ME1616 but one thing really worries me is the super low torque
> I can never understand how you can have 22KW of power and ony 32 NM


You just need to spin fast enough. High speed with low torque and low speed with high torque have the same effect, as long as you have the gearing to accommodate the speed.



frodus said:


> That's 32Nm torque continuous. The peak is like 120Nm.


Or from published specs:


> Maximum rotor speed: 6000 rpm
> Continuous power: 20kW, Peak power: 55kW
> Continuous Torque: 32Nm, Maximum Torque: 120 Nm


Power is simply torque multiplied by speed (in appropriate units of measure)
Torque (N.m) = 9.5488 x Power (W) / Speed (RPM)
Power (W) = Speed (RPM) x Torque (N.m) / 9.5488
Speed (RPM) = 9.5488 x Power (W) / Torque (N.m)​

32 Nm of torque would need to be delivered at the motor's maximum of 6000 rpm to produce 20 kW.
120 Nm of torque would need to be delivered at 4376 rpm to produce 55 kW.


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## kevinjclancy (Sep 25, 2017)

OK I hear what you are saying but - What about the old line that torque is instant so some motors put out 100Nm from zero RPM - am I just confused about what is being said? so it says .15nm per amp so to get 120nm i need 800 amps X 96 volts = nearly 80KW OMG


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

kevinjclancy said:


> What about the old line that torque is instant so some motors put out 100Nm from zero RPM...


You're mixing up two entirely separate concepts.

"Instant" is a matter of timing, and means without delay. Any motor changes torque or power output in a small fraction of a second. By the way, so does an engine, although the engine response is not as fast. If you are driving at whatever road speed corresponds to your motor turning, for instance, 3000 rpm, then it can go from low torque to the maximum torque for that speed as quickly as you can push the pedal down... but unless 3000 rpm is a speed at which the motor can produce its peak torque, you can't have that peak torque.

"from zero RPM" is a statement about what torque is available at what motor speed. A common characteristic of electric motors (DC, or AC with a variable frequency drive as is used in every EV) is that they can produce about the same torque at any speed from zero up to some rated speed for maximum torque. Above that speed, less torque is available... the faster the motor turns the less torque it can produce.

At zero speed, any amount of torque still corresponds to no power being produced. At any speed, the power produced is half of what it would be at twice the speed and the same torque. A typical EV (with only a single gear ratio, not a multi-ratio transmission) needs to be moving at at least 1/4 of its top speed to be able to get the maximum power out of the motor. With a maximum speed of only 6000 rpm, this motor will almost never be able to produce its maximum power, because the car will not be driving at a high enough road speed to get the motor speed up to where it needs to be.



kevinjclancy said:


> so it says .15nm per amp so to get 120nm i need 800 amps X 96 volts = nearly 80KW OMG


Except that the voltage to the motor will only be 96 volts at some very high speed. The electrical power into the motor is amps times volts, but at low speed the voltage required is low.

My guess is that at the 4376 rpm needed to (briefly) produce 55 kW, it really does need the full 96 volts, so it takes 80 kW of electrical power to produce 55 kW of mechanical power, for 69% efficiency. At lower speeds and still trying to produce maximum torque, it would take just as much current but less voltage, for both less power input (amps times volts) and less power output (Nm times RPM) than at this peak-power condition.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

Hello, new here
I've heard a lot of talk about the me1616.
I guess I learned the hard way that if it's too good to be true it probably is.
I have the motor installed and driving. The add read highway capable, maybe in rush hour traffic. Top speed was 51 mph and it took a long time to get there. I adjusted the battery amp from 42 to 60% and it hit 60mph. I talked to the vendor and he said running the motor at 200amps for more than a few seconds would burn up the motor. Kind of strange that his add says 250amps continuous.
My golf cart will out accelerate this thing.
The car I have it installed in is a 1200lb vw based kit car with 4 Tesla S batteries, the claims of 70+ hp and 100ftlbs of torque should rip the tires off this thing.
Sorry to vent but I wasted a lot of time and money on false claims.
I hope for the sake of anyone else who bought this system that I just got the bad one.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> I have the motor installed and driving. The add read highway capable, maybe in rush hour traffic. Top speed was 51 mph and it took a long time to get there. I adjusted the battery amp from 42 to 60% and it hit 60mph. I talked to the vendor and he said running the motor at 200amps for more than a few seconds would burn up the motor. Kind of strange that his add says 250amps continuous.


I guess there's 2 thing to consider...

1 - Can the motor do it at all.

2 - How does the motor get when you force it to do that.

If the ad is claiming 250 amps continuous, and you have a quote from the guy sayng it'll burn up at 200amps for more than a few seconds, that is immediate refund in my books. If you bought with a credit card, you can almost surely dispute this using that evidence.

On the other hand, maybe you're just being too light on the motor. If it's not overheating, just demand more of it. In particular, for the like, 10 seconds it would take to reach highway speed at reasonable acceleration, it shouldn't be damaging the motor. And maintaining highway speed is a lot easier than quickly accelerating to it.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

This is the message I received.
Just so you know, properly water cooled, the ME1616 will overheat with a continuous current beyond 170A DC. A peak amp for a few seconds at 200A is OK, but you will need to back it down to below 170A for continuous driving. What are you using for batteries?


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)




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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> Just so you know, properly water cooled, the ME1616 will overheat with a continuous current beyond 170A DC


You're using 4 Teslas S batteries, I presume at 22.8v nominal each? So 91.2 volts.

91.2 volts * 170amps = 15,504 watts. Or 20.7 horsepower.

Umm, yeah, no wonder you struggle to reach highway speed. You could've just done that math ahead of time.

It claims 77hp peak, 30hp continuous, off of 96v x 250 amps. That's 32hp, so, that's right, but I'm not sure how you'd ever get to 77 hp.

Later in the ad it claims 240 amps continuous (1 hour), 600 amps for 30 seconds. This contradicts 170 amps continuous in the email, yes.

However, the ad makes sense. Run it at 120v, capable of 600 amps for 30 seconds is fine. That's 100hp, you'd be up to highway speed far quicker than 30 seconds. Then fall back to maintaining highway speed.

The seller's response of asking you what batteries you're using seems reasonable, since your voltage is quite low for the expectation of pushing a car. (Even though the controller ad says 96v).

All told, just looking at the specs mentioned, I'd say the performance you're getting is exactly what would be expected from those specs.

The issue is if the max voltage actually is 96, and if your motor can even demand enough current when it's close to its max speed.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

The seller is telling me that I have too much battery for the motor and that I am damaging it by pushing too many amps into it. The 18 to 120v in the add is the controller, I don't know the maximum voltage for the motor.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> The seller is telling me that I have too much battery for the motor


96 volts is "too much battery" for a "highway speed EV" on a 44lb motor?

Seller is out to lunch.

Either voltage goes up, or it's not a highway-capable vehicle at 170 amps. How many amps is it even pulling at highway speeds when the back-emf is kickin'?

Do you even know either piece of information for the seller to be concerned?:

1 - How many amps the motor's actually pulling.
2 - How hot the motor is getting.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

Ok, so it's not just me.
The highest amp reading that I've seen was 200amps, the temp sensor on the motor is jumping all over so I installed a thermal couple in the water cooling line coming out of the motor and the hottest that the motor is has gotten is 110* Fahrenheit. Way below the the maximum 302* Fahrenheit.
Is it safe to run the controller at the maximum voltage?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> The highest amp reading that I've seen was 200amps, the temp sensor on the motor is jumping all over so I installed a thermal couple in the water cooling line coming out of the motor and the hottest that the motor is has gotten is 110* Fahrenheit. Way below the the maximum 302* Fahrenheit.


It is not correct to assume that the temperature of the water coming out of the motor is the same as the motor temperature. The motor is probably transferring heat to the water ineffectively, so it is not getting cooled enough.

For illustration, consider an open pot (not a pressure cooker) on a stove, sitting on a red-hot heating element or high flame. As long as it contains water, the water temperature will never be higher that the temperature of boiling water at your elevation (100 C / 212 F or less), but the pot (like the motor) is a lot hotter than that.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

What Brian says is correct, however, it doesn't make it false either. It definitely might just not be getting very hot.

The controller is the real limit. Don't go above its recommended voltage.

The motor isn't going to magically die at higher voltage, it's just going to overheat faster.

It's a small motor, so, I dunno. People put bigger hub motors on E-Bikes.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

I ran the calculations, it's possible to hit 77hp with 96v at 600a, the seller is telling me not to go over 200 amps for a few seconds. 25hp then stay below 170a continuous 20 hp
The only way I see this thing going down the highway is on the back of a tow truck.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My Device is DC and very poor aerodynamically but at 130 volts and 200 amps it could maintain 100 kph - with my motor I needed more voltage just to drive the current across the motor at the higher rpms


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> I ran the calculations, it's possible to hit 77hp with 96v at 600a [...]
> The only way I see this thing going down the highway is on the back of a tow truck.,


Indeed. However, it does not take 77hp to travel highway speed on a 1200 lb car. More like, 15hp.

That said, this is not a 77hp setup the way he describes it. You're absolutely correct.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

would would you be happy with 20hp in this?
Because of the add saying 77hp I thought that I was doubling my hp from my gasoline engine not cutting it in half.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

The ME1616 can certainly do more than 200A peak. Are you sure your controller is properly tuned? The fact that the seller is telling you nonsense doesn’t give much confidence that he set up the controller right.


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

I would like to find someone who knows how to set this thing up. I'm relatively new to the ev world. I do electrical wiring for a living and restore cars for a hobby, I thought I'd combine the two and build an electric car.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jimsev said:


> Would would you be happy with 20hp in this?


I'd be happy to ride that with no motor at all in a soapbox derby roll down the hill. Looks fun!

But I have low standards.

You're getting bad advice I think.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I suspect that the vendor is stating such a low current limit becuase of inherent weakness in the controller.

Several projects I've come across have used the ME1507 (air-cooled version of this motor) quite successfully – though generally in lighter vehicles. The water-cooled version should naturally have a higher continuous current rating.

Here's one example, running at just 72 V: 




Are you using a gearbox in your setup or is it a single ratio drive?


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## Jimsev (Jun 27, 2020)

I'm running the standard vw gear box 4 speed with ev west clutch flywheel and adapter.


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