# Who Killed the Electric Car? I'm soo mad!



## tazdotnet (Apr 9, 2008)

if you doubt that the EV will make a come back keep in mind that shows with alot of veiwers have backed up EVs as the way to go... i am talking about shows like mythbusters (the young scientist special) they tested EVs to see if they were slow and sluggish... they, of course, concluded that EVs are not slow or sluggish, and they are also damned fun!... if the trend keeps up the other techs will flounder as the companies can not agree on any one technology, the unity of the community will prevail... in other words: keep the faith and together we shall conquer the greed...


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Welcome to this Ev site, Alex.

You can do lots of things that you are not sure of at this time.

We all started out on small projects, to gain knowledge about something we were interested in.

I have always encouraged anyone that didn't think they had the "talent or knowledge" to attempt a project.

An EV can be as expensive as you want or as low budget as mine was.
<$1000.00 got me on the road and enjoying going past the gas station with a grin.

You can always upgrade as you go and can get "deals" or more "hobby money" to play with.

A plus is having your wife interested also.

Mine has a funny saying about my Yugo. "Be careful with it and don't go too fast". 

The funny part is that I drove a regular Yugo (gas powered) for a year, before I got my free one. 

She never cautioned me on that one!!

So have a good time and try new things.....you CAN do it.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I am currently in the beginning stages of an electric car build. However, before I started in on my car, I built myself something much simpler, an electric bicycle. I love it! It was easy to make, affordable, and it gets me from point a to b very quickly. Not quite as quick as a car, but much faster than a bicycle. Also, I can ride on sidewalks, through parks, along canal banks, etc. My commute is super stress free because I never deal with traffic. It is wonderful!

If your funds are lacking, I suggest you take a look at electric bikes and e-bike kits. You can find complete e-bikes on eBay for only a few hundred dollars, or you can buy a very nice hub-motor-type conversion kit for less than $450 shipped. 

You may be able to buy an e-bike locally too. Some of the electric auto association (EAA) guys around here just bought some e-bikes (copy cats!  ) from a local Chinese market. One of the bikes had a 20 mile range, cost $200. Another one was about $350 and it had a range of 40 miles! I'm jealous. My home built unit only has a range of 8.

Baby steps man. Wanna build an electric car but can't do it right now? Build an electric bike. You'll love it, and you'll want that electric car even more!


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> Baby steps man. Wanna build an electric car but can't do it right now? Build an electric bike. You'll love it, and you'll want that electric car even more!


I can absolutely concur with that!! Welcome alexd1983

My wife was as worried as hell about me wanting to do an EV. After I built my HOG and I explained to her that the ingredients were basically the same and she saw how well it worked she gave me the go ahead and actually encourages me to do it

Money is always a problem but a wise old philosopher (KIWIEV) once said to me, "Once you get the donor car, the rest sort of just happens"


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## tazdotnet (Apr 9, 2008)

lol @ old philosopher... isn't he (kiwiev) 27?  if he is that makes me old too... cause i'm 27 til september...


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Age is irrelevant.
Sage advise, is sage advise. 


All praise Gav. All Hail Gav. 
we're not worthy

Wise beyond his years

snigger cough snigger


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## alexd1983 (Apr 27, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your replies! It's nice to see there are still forums out there with friendly people willing to help!

I currently drive a 6-cyl 2002 Grand Am. Gas is about $54/week at current prices. If we take that $54/week and multiply that by a year, we get $2808. Add oil changes and all other maintenance to it and it really adds up!. We do, do a fair bit of distance driving (wedding photographers, travel all over ontario), but I would say that 60+% of it are distances that are shorter and could be easily handled by an eletric. Now if only those cheap lithiums would come faster -- or maybe I could put like 150 NiMH AAs together haha/

As for the electric bike, sounds like a great idea. Is there a DIY electric bike forum somewhere?  ha ha.

Thanks again everyone


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## alexd1983 (Apr 27, 2008)

tazdotnet said:


> if you doubt that the EV will make a come back keep in mind that shows with alot of veiwers have backed up EVs as the way to go... i am talking about shows like mythbusters (the young scientist special) they tested EVs to see if they were slow and sluggish... they, of course, concluded that EVs are not slow or sluggish, and they are also damned fun!... if the trend keeps up the other techs will flounder as the companies can not agree on any one technology, the unity of the community will prevail... in other words: keep the faith and together we shall conquer the greed...


I agree. We must do this together. be even more entertaining if we all "stuck it to the man" and built our own EVs and left big bad Oil crying


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## Art (Apr 27, 2008)

alexd1983 said:


> I agree. We must do this together. be even more entertaining if we all "stuck it to the man" and built our own EVs and left big bad Oil crying


I don't think anyone killed the electric car and to somehow give credit to "corporate America" is going overboard in my opinion. Corporate America is to stupid to be able to figure it out long term. Great for short term solutions but looking down the road, say 20 years, they're to stupid to care. Some have some incredibly smart engineers who are often balanced by a middle and upper middle management system that would be more at home in a protected workshop environment for the mentally retarded.

Let me clue you into something. "The Man" is a moron.

Nobody killed the EV it just wasn't economically feasible to at a time when gasoline was $1.29 a gallon. 

To make a commercially viable electric car, I have great hopes for the Chevy Volt, you need to get 250 miles + on a single charge, you need to have highway speeds of 60-75 mph and you either have to have an auxiliary motor to recharge or have a recharge system were you can recharge batteries in < 10 minutes. 

You get an 4 - 5 passenger electric vehicle that can maintain highway speeds of 70 mph, get 250 + miles on a single charge and recharge batteries in <10 minutes and you got a winner.

I work two miles from home and I am here to research converting to electric.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*When did mythbusters test the electric car? I HAVE TO KNOW!!!!*

sorry, big fan of mythbusters as well as EVs, combining the two was not something I ever considered......



"Who killed the electric car?" was a movie that pissed me off too. I was already researching the field of EVs for a while before the move and I didn't learn much that was new, but having it all go before me in less than 2 hours still made be want to punch holes in the wall. The rest of my family watched too, we were all riveted and left numb at the end.

I can respect GM for wanting to make a profit (if that was in fact a real problem), but the way they destroyed the car and the technology was like some sort of religious crusade....completely unforgivable. Even if they are serious about the volt, I'll probably never buy one, 40 miles on battery power is not close to being enough when I know what the technology is capable of. Knowing the whole story can really take the fun out of life sometimes


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Art said:


> Nobody killed the EV it just wasn't economically feasible to at a time when gasoline was $1.29 a gallon.




I'm inclined to agree. The EV1 was a billion dollar program with about a thousand EV1's produced so they cost GM about a million dollars each. I haven't heard anyone speculate what they would have cost to truly mass produce. 
I have to wonder what GM was afraid of when they crushed them or knobbled them so they would never work again. Was there some fatal design flaw or was it a growing public awareness of EV's. Did GM realise that if they sold you an EV1 they wouldn't see you again (or profit from you again) for a couple of decades.
Or could it be if GM had sold the cars rather than crushing them they would have got peanuts for them compared to their true cost and then would have been stuck supporting this tiny volume of cars for years with the ongoing costs and risks involved in doing that. Once they didn't have to keep making them it just didn't make sense to keep the existing ones either.


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

david85 said:


> *When did mythbusters test the electric car? I HAVE TO KNOW!!!!*
> 
> sorry, big fan of mythbusters as well as EVs, combining the two was not something I ever considered......



Yes I want to know this too I can't believe I missed this episode, I looked for it on you tube but could only find some amateur footage of it.


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## tazdotnet (Apr 9, 2008)

the episode was new and aired on the science channel 4-26-08... i had just got done watching it when i posted the message  (i was itching to find a way to mention it anyway)...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

tazdotnet said:


> the episode was new and aired on the science channel 4-26-08... i had just got done watching it when i posted the message  (i was itching to find a way to mention it anyway)...


Dam, I have to check my listings.

Sunday night usually has a new episode on discovery channel.

THATS TONIGHT!!


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## ronin4sale (Jan 29, 2008)

Art said:


> I don't think anyone killed the electric car and to somehow give credit to "corporate America" is going overboard in my opinion. Corporate America is to stupid to be able to figure it out long term. Great for short term solutions but looking down the road, say 20 years, they're to stupid to care. Some have some incredibly smart engineers who are often balanced by a middle and upper middle management system that would be more at home in a protected workshop environment for the mentally retarded.
> 
> Let me clue you into something. "The Man" is a moron.
> 
> ...


Did you even watch the movie? They didn't even give it a chance. Car companies removed EVs from the market because they were not mandated to keep them and they would be producing them at a lower profit than gas guzzlers. A majority of the car companies profits come from parts and maintenance. EVs are too good of a car for them to maintain their current price structure and profit margins. Thats why they refuse to release them. Even now, they are only planning to make Hybrids like the Volt which require maintenance.

We all know the limitations of EVs and the reality that many people need a second car for their long trips. The Chevy Volt will most likely fail because they have made it unattainable for most Americans while reducing its EV characteristics. Origionally they said $30k and 40 mi EV range, now they are saying $40k and 30 mi EV range. When you can get a plug in prius for $25k guess who will win? Its unfortunate, but it seems to be the reality of the situation. 

The other problem is that as soon as they decide to move to EVs permanently either the car companies or the oil companies will purchase a majority share in batteries (which they have begun to do already) and drive the price of batteries up or stay the same. No battery technology will be mass produced for individual consumer use because the car companies will be the owners and the ones selling the propriatary battery technology. They need to be able to sell their EV cars for $50-$60 grand in order to make their profits because they are losing out on about a thousand bucks a year in parts per car.

We will get there eventually, but if you want an EV sometime over the next 10 years you are going to have to build it yourself. I'd also like to comment that the Volt is NOT an EV. Its a hybrid which dramatically loses mpg for longer trips. Its great for short trips because it will run 100% electric, but after you hit 30 miles it has the same gas milage as most ICE cars today.

You are very fortunate to live so close to your work. If I were you I'd just walk or ride a bike!


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## ViolentBlue (Apr 19, 2008)

I think the car companies saw the future when they decided to kill the electric car, the future of inexpensive transportation that they couldn't justify marketing for $30,000+.

think about it, the technology involved in an electric car is much simpler than the ICE car, if the tecnology became more common, it could be produced for cheaper. cheaper components means lower prices for cars, and less income from maintenance and replacement parts.

the computer of 20 years ago was 10x the price of today, and 10 years ago was 3x the price of today. technology as manufacturing improves becomes cheaper. the ICE car however is basically the same as when it was invented, with some minor improvements in technology. the car of today is 5x as expensive as 20years ago. yet witht the improvements in manufacturing, they should be cheaper to build, or at least remained constant.

the auto manufacturers don't want the electric car because it means less money for them.

What we need is a government that has enough backbone to stand up to the corperations, and make mandates to get electric cars on the road. even a mandate of 10% nation wide would make them common enough that people will demand them, and eventually will displace ICE cars almost entirely.

everyone I that I mention my electric car build to loves the idea and wants one, but they've been sucked in by all the myths, they're too slow, they're too heavy, the technology is not proven etc.


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## electric85 (Apr 10, 2008)

i saw a recent interview with a GM rep. (i wish i knew where to find it) but he was talking about the volt and mentioned the EV1, he said that as a huge automotive company, they didn't feel right about leaving 1000 cars on the roads that would have no spare parts available, and no one to service them. he then went on to say that he realizes that recalling all the cars and crushing them was a little drastic and says looking back they wish they delt with it differently. he hopes the volt will make up for it. 

personally if the volt is getting less range then the EV1 got a decade ago, and its useing newer technology and batteries...not good enough. i'll be getting better range with my ev when its finished.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I once saw a paper from the early 1900s . It talked about the top priorities in the Chevrolet company (even before they bought GM) . Costumer related concerns was about 8 on a list of 10 . GM has probably more knowledge on electric vehicles then anyone in the world . If you remember way back the solar car race they had across Australia , GM car won by like 2 days or something like that . GM will only sell EVs when it is more profitable than the ones they sell now or if the government mandates that they do . But I think the Government should stay out of it . I guess it would be ok to pass laws to reduce pollution to get them motivated. And as far as EV1 , it was destroyed to prevent back engineering by some other companies . I think some survived all but the controllers that they pulled . I think the Smithsonian has the only one that is intact and I heard it was because they hid it and it is no longer on display . Just my thoughts is I remember them , correct me if anything I said is wrong  got to go pick up the 10 12amp smartchargers I got for $180 J.W.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

electric85 said:


> personally if the volt is getting less range then the EV1 got a decade ago, and its useing newer technology and batteries...not good enough. i'll be getting better range with my ev when its finished.


I second that!!


But If I am to play the devil's advocate for a moment, there were other aspects that were not mentioned in the movie that should be examined.

The truth is that there were problems with the NiMh battery, and some of those persist to this day. Thermal management is one of them, this can have the effect of driving down the charge efficiency of the battery. Operation in cold climate was (and still is) an issue as well. The EV1 was mainly offered for lease in southern california where the climate was good, but after the apparent success of the zero emission mandate in that state, others in less hospitable climates began considering the possibility of similar laws. This does not by any means however mean that the EV1 would not work in really hot or cold climates, it just wouldn't work as well.

GM did not have faith in the NiMh battery, if for no other reason than it was not their own technology, after all it was ovonics corp that developed it and GM merely bought it (much like what is happening with the volt now). The increasing interest in mandating electric cars combined with GMs apprehension of the technology was already a problem for them, but add to that the official cost of the project, and I would imagine that it did frighten many leaders at GM. As far as profits went, V8 engines and 4 speed automatic transmissions were a proven way to succeed (at least until they posted that huge loss).

We will never really know how cost effective the EV1 would have been if it was mass produced like the H2 hummer was, but we do know that the EV1 was basically a hand made limited production car. It also made extensive use of composites and aluminum/magnesium alloys to keep weight down. The H2 hummer was basically one big chunk of folded tin.

Now why destroy the cars......?

I did see some rumors on the web a few years ago that there was a faulty capacitor in the charge port that could cause a fire while the vehicle was charging. The story I read was of an owner of an EV1 who had his garage burn down and even had pictures showing the the scorched remains of the garage with whats left of an EV1 in the middle. I have not been able to confirm this story.

The more likely reason is that if these cars were allowed to run on the roads of southern california, they would stand as a constant reminder of what might have been. We know how long an EV can last, and that the motor does not really have a fixed lifespan. In addition, I have been lucky enough to be in contact with a couple of individuals that were able to drive the cars themselves, their reaction was to fall in love with the car after two blocks. 

GM is feeling the heat and will for some time to come thanks to this film. Weather the EV1 was viable or not from from a marketing standpoint can be debated because of the numbers that GM has made public, but there was no good reason to destroy the cars. Although making the EV1 a martyr did help to save other EVs when their programs were canceled. The ford ranger and toyota Rav4 are still on the roads today.


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## Cornelius (Sep 15, 2007)

For a more detailed study of how the EV1 came into being, read _The Car That Could_ by Michael Shnayerson. The book tells about the various internal squabbles at GM over the design and development of the EV1. The book ends just as the EV1 is brought to the market, so no sad story about its end. The book is out of print, and with all the interest in EVs, the price of this book has gone up greatly at half.com.

For those considering an EV conversion, two must have books are:

_Convert It!_ by Michael Brown. This book is somewhat dated, but is still the best hands-on, DIY guide for EVs.

_Build Your Own Electric Vehicle_ by Bob Brant. A more technical guide with lots of graphs and formulas, well worth reading.

Both books are available at Amazon.com, although with all the current interest in EVs, their inventory comes and goes.

For those ready to do more than just read, the electric bike ideas previously mentioned are a good way to get started. Another possibility is to convert a lawn mower or yard tractor to electric. Electric motorcycles, dirt bikes and ATVs are also an easy way to start. There are several conversions listed at the Austin EV Gallery and on YouTube.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

DVR said:


> Age is irrelevant.
> Sage advise, is sage advise.
> 
> 
> ...


LOL
(A certain kiwi is shaking his head and laughing in front of his PC right now)


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## tazdotnet (Apr 9, 2008)

just don't let it give you a complex kiwi, we wouldn't want to lose the benefit of your mind... the only true failure is the person who gives up without trying...


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I bought a DVD on eBay last night.


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## tazdotnet (Apr 9, 2008)

i'm planning on going to the theater to see it...


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

The jerk just refunded my money, as he doesn't have the DVD.
I will try again.


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## jlsawell (Apr 4, 2008)

At a dinner party recently I was asked had I seen "Who Killed The Electric Car?". This soon became an animated discussion about my plans, politics, economics and the Saudi's.

Long story short, we used a sheet of paper to chart oil prices (rising), oil supply (falling, but not yet at zero). We added an extimate of "peak oil" in at 2005, and the EV1 in at 2001.

We eventually all agreed that the current price of oil makes it unprofitable to release the electric car YET. The EV1 was what the pharmaceutical industry calls a "trial" - and it was a success. We now know that EVs are totally feasible.

The only problem is - we've got this supply of oil that just keeps making us more profits. If BP made 45 Billion in 1990 (when oil was $80/barrell) and 100 Billion in 2000 (when oil was $95/barrell) - how the hell much must they be making with oil at $120/barrell??? (Excuse my numbers - might be a big rusty but you get the idea).

So the plan is: Prove that there is an alternative, then milk the consumers for every last PENNY as the price of oil goes up. Once the market is completely exhausted, and there is no more oil: reveal the EV#2 or whatever and tax the hell out of electricity...

Towards the end of WW2, the Japanese were trying to boil and compress palm trees to make oil because the US put an embargo on them. That's how desperate they got. I forsee a similar thing happening worldwide. Just imagine what when oil goes to $250 a barrell and the military siezes 50% of all supplies as they come into the country?

I reckon the electric car wasn't killed: It's being held hostage until a profitable time for it's release...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

There is something that we can each do given enough effort.











Build our own electric vehicles.


If they are holding the electric car hostage, fine, let them loose the confidence of their customer base. GM recently posted the largest loss in automotive history. Its not all because of the large vehicles they are selling, the economics of the united states are playing a role too. But I think we do have some power to ourselves, after all its easier to buy a set of solar panels than to boil trees down into oil.

I thought there was something to be had in biofuel, but as long as it displaces farmland, it will only make things worse for everybody. To use the words of the GM commercial for the EV1, "the electric car is here"

Lets use it.


*Coley: *the documentary should be on google's video hosting (free).


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## alisha (Apr 30, 2008)

To control a situation they never wanted to comply with, they made their EVs available only on a lease or loan basis, giving them the right to recall the entire fleet at will.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

With a slow dial-up of 23K, I can't even watch Youtube........

Better I buy the DVD, so I can watch it anytime. Got one coming...


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## Art (Apr 27, 2008)

ViolentBlue said:


> everyone I that I mention my electric car build to loves the idea and wants one, but they've been sucked in by all the myths, they're too slow, they're too heavy, the technology is not proven etc.


I marvel at what has taken place in battery technology over the past 20 years.

When I got my first portable cell phone, cost $1,200 with a handle you had to lug like a brief case, battery life was about six hours. Less if you talked.

Now I carry a cell phone in my pocket that lasts three days on a single charge.

On construction job sites 20 years ago battery operating tools were a joke. Very little power, fine for homeowners but not for doing "real stuff", and in need of constant charging.

Today that has changed. Except for the largest tools everything is battery powered which was forced on us in a roundabout way by OSHA. If OSHA shows up to do an inspection you better pray you don't have a frayed or split extension cord or you could end up with a fine large enough to purchase every available battery operating tool at your local Home Depot. The answer to the exposure is simple; no extension cords = zero OSHA exposure on that issue.

What is really amazing is the power saw units for cutting 2x4's up to 2x8's. The newer ones especially do a great job and if you keep an extra battery in the charger you never run out of juice.

My first laptop I was lucky to get 30 minutes of operating time. Today I get 3 hours.


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## RandyC (Dec 24, 2007)

GM didn't want to make the EV1 in the first place. They only made a few token cars to keep CARB off their backs. It has been estimated that each one cost $250k to build and between $600-$1000 to destroy each one. 

They were hand assembled by placing the chassis on a stand, then 2 guys pulled up a cart with parts, after mounting the parts they would go get some more. A very inefficient way to make a car. No assembly line, no robots, no singe task work stations etc. When you build a car this way it's going to be expensive and is only done for the elite cars like Rolls Royce, Bentley or Ferrari.

Another thing that didn't help was the magnacharger system. It was the absolute safest of the alternatives, you could lick the paddle in the poring rain and never get shocked. But it was expensive $2000-$3000 each making public charging stations more expensive. At home an electrician had to install the charger to the tune of $1000 or more depending on location. And of course only one other car maker used the magnacharger the rest went with the less expensive Avcon system. When Toyota put out the RAV4-EV they used a smaller size paddle so that the large EV1 paddle wouldn't fit to frustrate things even more.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I received my DVD today and watched it after supper.

My thoughts on a good EV are, it will have to come from us.

The car manufactureres might build them, but the dealers won't like them.

Except for the batteries, true EVs should be much cheaper to manufacture, if the car makers would only admit this.

With so little maintanence involved with EVs, there won't need to be as many dealerships/technicians.

Also think how auto parts stores will react. No waterpumps, fuel pumps, fuel injection, no carburetors, no fuel filters, no starters, No exhaust systems, you get the picture.

As the older ICE cars disappear, so will the automobile services needed.

This will take a long, long time, but it is a thought as to why, hydrogen is the "baby" and not EVs.

On another thought.... a friend of mine was turned in to GM, by a disgruntled employee, over building sofas from the rear ends of cars.

We all figured that as soon as a car is sold by the maker, that it is no longer under his control.

So taking "50s cars and cutting them up to make them something different, should not even be a concern of GM, or any other auto mfger. Custom cars, street rods etc. should not and haven't been bothered.

I make reproduction parts for a lot of different antique cars, among other things. When I began back in the '70s, I contacted GM and asked if they had any problem with me making reproduction parts for old '30s Chevies.
I was told that as long as I sold them as reproduction parts, they had no problem with it.

Enter the '90s and all of a sudden you need a license and they also want 10% of your sales, of said parts.

GM, Ford and Chrysler, each want you to get a license from them, before you reproduce anything with a trade mark OR part number on it: emblems nameplates etc.

This I understand, as they are trademarked items. 

But, what if they think that have some control over us, converting their product into an EV.

GM finally backed down on the sofas, as probably not worth the effort. They did insist that he use only LICENSED trim parts on the sofas. New bumpers, taillights, side emblems etc. Anything that was reproduced, needed to be OK'd for a license by GM.

Sorry for the long page, but just thinking about things......


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## heynow999 (Mar 2, 2008)

As for EV`s lasting a long time and not breaking, similar things happened in the sewing machine industry. Lots of companies went out of business as the machines lasted forever. I`m sure we all remember someones Grandmother who still used an old pedal powered machine from 1923. I know I have several still.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You are bang on, Coley. If you want something done, you have to do it yourself. I'm not they type to buy into conspiricy theories and lay blame at the doorstep of people that "don't exist". The problem is that running the economy is always going to take first priority, and a close second priority is scoring political points.

What politician has the time to be an advocate for EVs in all this mess? Governments are certainly flawed, and we need to work on that, but in the mean time I would rather have a car I can believe in.

If average poeple like us can build cars for ourselves than to heck with the big automakers. I'm still mad at them for still using rusty materials after 100 years in the biz.

Change will happen, but we may have to force it outselves.


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