# [evdl] why keep the transmission



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What is the purpose of keeping the transmission in an ev conversion?

that is just one more unnnecessary "link" between your motor and the wheels
[imho]

can't the motor be attached to the transaxle?, why not?[as long as space
allows..]

the fastest, ideal, paradigm ev use hub motors, dont they?, my suggestion
above is to get as close to the "rubber" as possible

i'm shooting from the hip here... but i will click the post button now
anyhow 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Transmission pro:

1. Reverse w/o electronics
2. Steep hill climb versus high freeway speed
3. Minimizes motor size and weight for performance requirements above
4. Lower current demands on controller
5. Enhanced regen for simplest regen systems by carefully downshifting
6. Motor/controller testing in neutral to prevent unwanted burn outs


Transmission con:

1. Loss of efficiency (1% to 2%) due to gear sets and windage loss of
churning oil
2. Neutral hazard: unloaded high motor RPM - must have rpm limiter for
series wound motors
3. Possibility of inadvertent shift into 1st or reverse when towing
leading to motor destruction.
4. Weight of transmission and clutch if retained, also extra moment of
inertia for flywheel clutch plates and shafts
5. If auto tranny is considered, terrible losses unless customized to
remove torque converter or at least clutch bypass it.


Hub motors seem like an elegant idea but they are mainly useful on low
performance or slow vehicles like construction machinery. On a highway
vehicle, motors located at the wheels add to unsprung weight and make it
difficult to achieve damping and vehicle handling dynamics. Road bumps
become more transferred to vehicle body. Of course, it helps to have a
heavy battery pack.

George Swartz
















> What is the purpose of keeping the transmission in an ev conversion?
>
> that is just one more unnnecessary "link" between your motor and the
> wheels
> [imho]
>
> can't the motor be attached to the transaxle?, why not?[as long as space
> allows..]
>
> the fastest, ideal, paradigm ev use hub motors, dont they?, my suggestion
> above is to get as close to the "rubber" as possible
>
> i'm shooting from the hip here... but i will click the post button now
> anyhow
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/WHY-KEEP-THE-TRANSMISSION-tp3462053p3462053.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

I am about to agree with you folk, despite not reading all details in your
posts,

you people seem to be rigtht as far as keeping thing within our realm,
affordable ev conversion, but...

there are more expensive conversion, using ac motors [3 phase], so i guess
'reverse' and motor 'speed'/rpm should not be an issue with a well designed
controller, cps is what controll ac motor speed [my bias in favor of ac
motors, I know] 

back to hub motors and shooting for the ideal, I don't yet fully understand 
[but i will or continue to partially disagree] the problem with hub motors

1- on low power two and 3 wheel machines they have proven to be better than
motors with sprockets etc, not neccessarily less expensive

2- whatever problem they are having using them on heavier vehicles [cars]
shall be overcome, or I quit. Double safety provisions etc etc

check the light seen at the end of the tunnel
shed from ex rollsroyce exe, mercedes, audi, bmw

http://www.ev-chargeamerica.com/electric_vehicles_coming.html

btw
long ago even medium size house/comercial fan were belt driven, electrical
engineers have done their job designing powerfull electric motors, now it is
up to other specialist to figure out how to use them safe and efficiently.
Executive who push their engineers to do something "contrary" to what they
have done all their life is a mistake, due to human limitations.

You have to get new blood to start from scratch..., like why very few old
cobol fortram programmers could not master flash and stuff like that, guess
why Bill Gates smartly stepped down before stock holders dumped him. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Sent from my iPad



> hi-tech <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am about to agree with you folk, despite not reading all details in your
> > posts,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Transmission pro:

...
7. Clutch provides a safety disconnect
8. Clutch springs provide isolation from pot hole shocks
9. Smaller motor (the successful direct drive highway capable EVs have 2 motors 
or a huge single motor)
10. The world's fastest EV (315 mph), the Buckeye Bullet, uses a transmission
11. Leverages the car's original engineering for torque and loads




________________________________
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, April 19, 2011 10:36:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION

Transmission pro:

1. Reverse w/o electronics
2. Steep hill climb versus high freeway speed
3. Minimizes motor size and weight for performance requirements above
4. Lower current demands on controller
5. Enhanced regen for simplest regen systems by carefully downshifting
6. Motor/controller testing in neutral to prevent unwanted burn outs


Transmission con:

1. Loss of efficiency (1% to 2%) due to gear sets and windage loss of
churning oil
2. Neutral hazard: unloaded high motor RPM - must have rpm limiter for
series wound motors
3. Possibility of inadvertent shift into 1st or reverse when towing
leading to motor destruction.
4. Weight of transmission and clutch if retained, also extra moment of
inertia for flywheel clutch plates and shafts
5. If auto tranny is considered, terrible losses unless customized to
remove torque converter or at least clutch bypass it.

Hub motors seem like an elegant idea but they are mainly useful on low
performance or slow vehicles like construction machinery. On a highway
vehicle, motors located at the wheels add to unsprung weight and make it
difficult to achieve damping and vehicle handling dynamics. Road bumps
become more transferred to vehicle body. Of course, it helps to have a
heavy battery pack.

George Swartz
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

I see not reaction fom you people to bmw, mercedez etc plans for ev w/hub
motors, see link in my previous post, do they care about safety?

nevertheless, on the other hand, i beleive a car can "work" with only two
hub motors, contrary to what a poster said.

AND

JUST ONE CONTROLLER can manage more than one hub motor, contrary to what a
poster said. Does your pc can control more than one "hard drive"? 

or do you think bmw audi etc have used more than one controller? 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Hub motors make perfect sense if you know nothing about motors or
suspension, design departments love them because it gives them
complete artistic freedom, they don't have to think about motors,
transmission, axles and other pesky real world details.

While certain motors can be paralleled and driven from a single
controller it is less than ideal. Your PC/harddrive analogy is
interesting since every hard drive has its own motor controller in it,
but it is hardly relevant to vehicle design.

The E-tron is a concept design from previously mentioned design
department, much like the IMiev the hub-motors will almost certainly
disappear if the car is ever produced and for sale. The Merc doesn't
even have a release date, just some vague specs, talk is cheap.

The fact is that many many concept designs has been announced with hub
motors and not a single one has made it into production.

And stop shouting.




> hi-tech <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I see not reaction fom you people to bmw, mercedez etc plans for ev w/hub
> > motors, see link in my previous post, do they care about safety?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

There are two parts to a controller; the "brain" and the "driver". Usually
they are both integrated into one box. In your PC computer analogy, the PC
is the brain, yes, but each hard-drive has its own set of drivers. (Yes the
hard-drives have brains too, but let's stick to the analogy.)

In a car-controller, the expense is in the driver and not in the brains. 
For two hub motors there may be one brain but there is most certainly two
driver sets.






> hi-tech wrote:
> >
> > JUST ONE CONTROLLER can manage more than one hub motor, contrary to what
> > a poster said. Does your pc can control more than one "hard drive"? or do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*



> hi-tech wrote:
> 
> > AND
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Yes one controller can run multiple motors but you are generally limited then to the motors all doing the same thing. If the controller has the ability to run multiple motors independently (the PC vs Hard Drive analogy) it is generally more expensive and would require at the least multiple power electronics; one set per motor.

In a HUB motor configuration you might want differential operation to replace the function of the physical differential gears. For this you need either two controllers or one smart controller with two sets of power electronics. The power electronics are generally the most expensive part of the controller so most conversions would just use two controllers. A large manufacturer might consider building a smarter front end which in volume would probably save money. On the other hand they might not; most modern cars have several controllers running the engine, air-bags, anti-lock breaks etc. It seems it was cheaper by some calculation to keep these separate and independent rather then saving a little money on a few microprocessors and more sophisticated software.

Also your PC does not really control multiple hard drives anyway. It just asks multiple hard drives to do complex things with simple commands. The drives themselves are incredibly smart even if most current toy PC operating systems don't make use of most of their capability.

Lawrence



> hi-tech wrote:
> 
> > I see not reaction fom you people to bmw, mercedez etc plans for ev w/hub
> > motors, see link in my previous post, do they care about safety?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Roger Heuckeroth , 

in reference to my post you said,

"When you started this discussion I think most people thought you were
talking conversions. Maybe you should clarify what you are asking".

There are ac "conversions" also, and the only reason for me refering to ac
is that a poster mentioned "reverse" not being possible without a
transmission. My original only question was, "why keep the transmission"

I am aware and already admitted that cost is a major factor doing
conversion, which rule out ac for most people, even wasting time discussing
possibilities, but i didn't and kept saying what was possible.

The only reason I mentioned hub motors at the begining was to make the point
that the closer you get the motor to the "rubber" the better, eliminating
'links' in between. 

which is not out of line with "conversion" and my original
question/proposal, as i proposed getting closer to the rubber by eliminating
the transmission and install the motor -ok DC if you will- at the
'transaxle'.


Peter Gabrielsson ,

you asked me to "stop shouting" thanks, yeah right, being lazy, found
capital letters as quick way of placing visual emphazis [nobody is
'listening' my speech] on the particular word, for better understanding my
kind of writting.

this you all know, ev-ideal vs ice, iron is not getting cheaper nor lighter,
"we" already got rid of the ice, transmission should be next, then axle,
they belong to stone age. And material wise they cost more than
controllers, wires, motors -probably hubs included, it is a matter of time
for the metting of
low-cost-labor-demand-supply-bigoildad-bigslice-and-blessing...

ev is a disruptive [old too] technology, nevertheless, veteran engineers
should be retained as consultants, but not in charge of the project as it is
natural to resist change, it is a brain 'desiase' [sp?]

bill dube,

yeah i see, as you said it is a "flow" thing, following the pass of less
resistance, we are not getting paid to find solutions for the industry, it
is their money, oem or conversion industry sector.

sorry if reply was not included to oppossing opinions, i have bad
"retentiveness", 

btw yes "infancy" seem "perpetual" for ev as they were born before ice... 

bigoildad did not feed ev, considering it a bastard, almost did "kill" ev.
Inside he had to be very stupid with a heart wraped in "green" paper, to
continue with such attitude.

during the mean time ice became popular but despite being well fed stayed as
a short guy with an ugly face

did i go on a tangent here?

Well... as a final note, airplanes were fragile, material fatigue probably
was an issue and did not fly too far, innovation resolved many of those

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*



> hi-tech wrote:
> 
> > There are ac "conversions" also, and the only reason for me
> > refering to ac is that a poster mentioned "reverse" not being
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

I stated, 
"The only reason I mentioned hub motors at the begining was to make the
point that the closer you get the motor to the "rubber" the better,
eliminating 'links' in between".

and someone reacted saying, "I think the question here is why you think this
to be true".

Is this a kidding 'raction'?, think about efficency..., not 'labor' to
install.

actually if anyone read my few post, before replying to my first post, you
will notice all bases or perspectives have been covered already,

except for the question from a particular poster, "Are you related to Dan
Frederiksen?"

I beleive the ansewer is no, despite the fact I dont know what the question
is about...,

'related' about what?.

as summary, again, 

forget about ac and hub motors for a while, "tranny" is not needed if you
are willing to put more 'labor' doing the job, not neccessarily spend much
more money on parts.

most posters are correct, even those who favor ac and hub motors [ac or dc], 

it boils down to, 

from what side of the optical prism we are looking at it and what wavelength
we are resonant to

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*



> hi-tech wrote:
> > I stated "...the closer you get the motor to the "rubber" the better,
> > eliminating 'links' in between".
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > But it is also true that there is an "ideal" solution. If you were
> > designing the vehicle from scratch, and had infinite knowledge, time,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] WHY KEEP THE TRANSMISSION*

Armando,

right now i need to buy a sample e-biclycle conversion kit.

Next order would be at leas 100 kits

Can you help me get a fair price?

HI-TECH
[email protected]

-------------------

Lee Hart,

you have the circuit to tune to my 'wavelength', even if is not your
particular favorite resonant one,

as far as *this* topic is concerned let me repeat

"as summary, again, forget about ac and hub motors for a while, "tranny" is
not needed if you are willing to put more 'labor' doing the job, not
neccessarily spend much more money on parts."

in other words, attaching a motor [anykind] to the transaxle [eliminating
the tranny] is more difficult but not really much more expensive in terms
of parts to be purchased

"The only reason I mentioned hub motors at the begining was to make the
point that the closer you get the motor to the "rubber" the better,
eliminating 'links' in between. "

hub motors is a separate issue we can discuss later, for the sake of this
topic, suffice to say that putting aside the problems encountered so far,
heat due to brakes etc, someone still has to show me [not in this thread
please] why it is not more "efficent" 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*

Lee Hart,

ok, you'r the man,

I paid more attention to best part in this thread so far, from you. It saved
me some more thinking. It is worth quoting it,

"Based on the extensive work done so far on this problem, it looks like
the "best" solution does not have a transmission. Instead, it would use
a single high-speed motor, a fixed-reduction gearbox, a differential,
and drive shafts to the wheels."

How difficult would it be to get the reduction gear by replacing the gear
inside the transaxle, just keeping the housing?, 

there any out-there or they have to be custom?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*

Not difficult at all. You just change the pinion and ring gear in the 
differential housing. A good source I use is jegs.com. You can there tech 
line at 1-900-345-4545 for info.

Some differential housing may be too small to put in a larger ring gear. 
The maximum ratio I have seen for a Ford 10 bolt 9" ring is a 6.50:1 ratio 
and for a GM 10 bolt 8.5" ring is a 5.57:1 ratio. A GM 12 bolt 8.875" ring 
is a 6.14:1 ratio.

The best source for a custom differential, rings, pinion and axles is from 
www.markwilliams.com which I use there units in my EV. Tech line - 
1-800-525-1963

The formula for calculating mph, rpm and gear ratio needed.


MPH = (RPM x Wheel Circumference)/(Overall Gear Ratio x 1056)

To calculated the overall gear ratio if only using a differential without a 
transmission, then it's the gear ratio of the ring and pinion.

To calculated the overall gear ratio with a transmission, take the ratio of 
the 1st gear in the transmission times the ring and pinion ratio for the 
maximum speed in 1st gear.

Do this calculation for each other gear in the transmission.

I need a minimum of a 10.0:1 overall ratio for a vehicle that weighs 6680 
lbs which I can accelerated from a stop keeping the motor at 200 amps and 
the battery at 75 amps.

A vehicle that weighs between 3000 to 3500 lbs may get by with a overall 
gear ratio between 5.14:1 to 6.20 overall gear ratio. The maximum speed with 
a 6.20 ratio is about 77 mph at 6000 rpm.

Roland








How difficult would it be to get the reduction gear by replacing the gear 
inside the transaxle, just keeping the housing?, there any out-there or 
they have to be custom?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*



> On 22 Apr 2011 at 16:18, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Solectria converted a hundred or so Geo Metros to electric. They used
> > high speed AC electric motors, and rebuilt the Metro transaxle so it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/file/n3470746/GM_All-in-One_Car_Kit.jpg 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*

All good for a utility car (t) 

It would be like what I will do with my Cushman Truckster. It is direct
drive to the differential. Light weight and low speeds.

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission*

It's nice BUT it is part of the sprung weight! I wouldn't do it. If it were
available as an independent suspension unit I would be interested but not
like that. Other problem beyond it being part of the sprung weight would be
the fact that it is being pounded around by the road.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of hi-tech
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 6:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why keep the transmission

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/file/n3470746/G
M_All-in-One_Car_Kit.jpg 

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ANSMISSION-tp3462053p3470746.html
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Nabble.com.

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