# Planning a 1959 Edsel Villager Wagon conversion



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you certainly have the necessary skill set to perform a conversion should you choose to.

Roger on the cargo/passenger carrying requirements. Not everybody can get by with a honda insight 2-seater.

Given your requirements (minimum 60, ideally 120 mile range at 55mph) and chosen car (3800 lbs curb weight, say 5000 pounds loaded) you would certainly need a good sized battery pack and motor/drivetrain. The weight you specifiy isn't as bad as you might think though. Many lead acid pickup conversions are in that weight ballpark. The same weight in lithium that they currently have in lead and these truck would probably have a range in the ballpark you are asking for.

Your best bet to estimate efficiency (and thus required battery pack size) would be to look for similarly sized/weight EVs on this site's garage area and at the austin ev album (evalbum.com). But I would guess that fully loaded, you are probably looking at 400-500wh/mile. Remember to add about 20% capacity to go from what you are expecting to use to the nominal (nameplate) capacity of the battery pack to add some margin and allow for DOD to not exceed 80% or so.

Given this, you are right to think you need a battery pack AT LEAST in the 40-50kwh range. Such a pack could be made up of a 300V, 160ah (roughly 96 cells) CALB lithium cells. These are probably the "best" large format lithium cells currently available for conversion projects. Unfortunately, at retail prices you have already broken the bank as this battery pack (just the cells, no BMS) is going to be around $20K.

As for motor/drivetrain as long as you aren't looking for a hot rod owing to the weight you are moving, the news is somewhat better. If you want to go the DC route (cheaper, but no regenerative braking) there are plenty of motor (warp 11, warp 13, dual 9") and controller (z1k, z2k, soliton 1) options that would provide enough power to run the car. Such combinations are high end for DC but roughly $6-10k depending on the specifics. 

An AC motor option with enough power that would not break the bank relatively speaking would be to try to find a surplus Solectria Azure dynamics AC55 motor/UMOC or DMOC inverter. These systems were designed for light trucks up to about 5000 pounds overall weight. Not a lot of horsepower, but lots of low end torque. I have one of these systems (nfs) and you can see me test running it on youtube at http://youtu.be/VuIZmYhrMUM. The solectria systems can occasionally be found in working condition for sale for a couple thousand up to 7 or 8 thousand depending on condition, age, and a few other factors. They are still supported by the manufacturer.

In either motor/controller case I'd strongly recommend keeping a transmission owing to the overall weight of the car. You might be able to get away with using a 2 speed divorced overdrive unit or a divorced transfer case modified for the purpose, but the best thing would probably just to find a good solid 3 or 4 speed stick someplace. You could do what I did and remove some of the internal components such as for reversing (especially with the AC system) to reduce internal friction, along with lightening the flywheel and/or going clutchless.

Also plan on putting light truck highway tread tires on the car and run them at maximum safe pressure (60 or 80 psi) to help minimize the rolling resistance. Drum brakes are an advantage in a conversion because they can be tweaked to make zero drag though it may involve removing any auto-adjusters so they don't tighten up when you back up. Not much you can do for aerodynamics on an edsel I suppose, but maybe a belly pan, lose any roof rack it may have, and some other discreet modifications would be helpful. Or, just keep it to 45/50mph and the aerodynamics become less important.

Finally, it might be good to add additional battery size margin to account for operating a heater (if you plan on driving in the winter) and to account for surprise changes in rural driving conditions (strong winds, rain or snowstorms, detours, etc) that can make you eat 20-30% more power to get where you are going. Another option is to be sure you have a charging option at your 1/2 way point if you need it. For a car that size, a 240v charging source would be best but even 120v at 20A for a couple hours you are in town anyway might make the difference.

Good Luck.


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

I have a question about LiFePo4 battery quality. . .

In the R/C boating industry with LiPo batteries, quality varies from battery to battery. And I don't mean with regards to charge/discharge capability rating (C rating) If you compare a high priced 2S1P 30C Lipo to another low price 2S1P 30C Lipo, the cheap one may loose capacity after less cycles, and may puff as well. This is usually under "normal" use, but normal R/C use is pretty brutal compared to a full sized ev. (as in, a full pack is depleted going max speed 90% of the time in about 5-7 minutes)

Being that LiFePo4 is a more stable battery chemistry then LiPo are the LiFePo4's generally of the same quality? or do you still "get what you pay for"?


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

You absolutely get what you pay for. That is very, very, evident in the EV conversion world. Very little of what components we need are like-kind commodities available from many sources, so if you see a major difference in price, there is likely a very good reason for it that is not just marketing.

The one major unfortunate thing about all the large format LiFePO4's available right now to EV conversions (at least from the position of a US consumer) is they are all coming out of China. It doesn't seem to be as much of an issue now, but even only a few years ago it was really easy to get burned especially if dealing directly with a manufacturer. (Of course, there were problems well known on this forum with certain now-defunct stateside distributors as well that had nothing to do with the quality of the batteries themselves) 

IMHO the best strategy is to stick with the well known, established brands that people are having success with, and then buy the batteries new from a well regarded stateside distributor, not directly from the chinese manufacturer. It may cost a bit more, but the distributor does volume and repeat business with the manufacturer so there is much more incentive to that manufacturer to provide consistent quality.

Well regarded battery manufacturers seem to be CALB (the "blue" cells), Thunder Sky (now sinopoly, I believe, the yellow cells) and Sky Energy (the white ones). There are significant differences in C rate, nominal voltage, energy density, and other factors across the manufacturers so do your homework based on your own needs. All of these should have useful cycle lives into the 1000's if treated right.

There is also GBS, who manufactures a lithium magnanese chemistry large format cells. The energy density is higher, but the advertised cycle life is less than the LiFePO4 cells. I have yet to see a car using these cells in my local crowd.

Based on what I am seeing others using and what well regarded people in the know whom I hang out with are currently saying, my next conversion (in the planning stages) is probably going to have the CALB batteries. My second choice would be Thunder Sky/Sinopoly and then Sky energy.

Hope this helps.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Wow, Chad. Ambitious project. That Edsel is one of my favorite cars. My neighbor across the street bought a '58 wagon out of a barn in the late '70s, drove it home, and while buying gas for the first time, the rusted straps failed and the full tank fell to the pavement at the filling station...

Let's think about your threshold issue for a minute- range.

One good rough measure of EV range is to consider LiFePO4 prismatic cells as worth about a gallon of gasoline for every 8kWh of battery. There are a lot of reasons this is a good rough measure, but just assume it for a second and work through the rough numbers:

If that Edsel got 15mpg, then you'd need over 7 gallon equivalents in energy to go 110 miles. Add a 25% capacity cushion to make sure you can do 110 miles at 80% depth of discharge, and you now need over 9 gallon equivalents, or 73+ kWh in your pack. If the Edsel got 18mpg, which is quite unlikely, then you still need a 61 kWh pack. If the Edsel got 12mpg, you'll need almost 92 kWh of LiFePO4 cells to go 110 miles. Since the cars actually got something around 10mpg, you're just never going to get your desired range even with a huge $25k pack that presents major challenges just to fit into the chassis.

As much as I love the idea, a '50s vintage American wagon is going to be a colossally expensive and impractical conversion, unless its just a very expensive toy and you don't care about very limited range.

If you really want an EV people mover, you are much better off going with something like a Ford Aerostar or a Toyota Previa. They can take the weight better, are safer, much more efficient, and provide better packaging for everthing. With either one, though, you're still going to need about 50 kWh of energy to go 110 miles...

Food for thought.

TomA


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

Thanks for the food, and while I don't agree on useing MPG as a worthwhile measure for an electric, you do make some good point's. Ones I have begun to relize.

The biggest is that lithium is expensive. I knew that, but I guess I just forgot for the moment 

After more number crunching, and a second look at the Edsel (it is bought, just not paid for yet) we (my wife and I) decided that "city range" is both unnecessary and likely impossible (especially with our budget)

Thus the project is going to be for a range of 60+ miles. I also got word back from Azure Dynamics, they are still not selling the "version 2" of the controller, and so unavailable. I also don't feel like trying to figure out how to build my own CAN throttle control input device.

So, at this point, I have the car. . . and research continues.

(fyi, the "research" began about 4 years ago, at least there is more info/parts now)


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

You can always look at a range trailer (several ways to go with those) for the city trips, or build the car to handle twice the battery size to what you initially install, giving yourself room to upgrade in the future.


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## Hoosier_Daddy (Nov 8, 2011)

You have some lofty goals and you now have some helpful input from some of the members. I hope you still see this project through. I was wanting to do a 60's musclecar or full size car/wagon conversion and was facing much of the same obstacles you are facing.

I even floated the ICE/generator idea for extended range since most of my driving would be under 50 miles round trip. (yes, it would become a hybrid and not an EV conversion before the Anal members jump on it)

I wish you luck and will be watching for more posts to see how your project progresses.


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

So, for sure, range is only going to be a minimum of 60 miles (100km)

Now I have begun the heated debate with myself about going AC or DC. One thing I did not consider initially is controller efficiency. Now that I have taken it into account, I see that a "complete" system is about the same efficiency with AC or DC.

We do have lots of big short steep and little hills around here . . . is regen worth the cost? thought opinions?

Second thing. . .

I was reading the thread about the BMW 3 High Performance conversion, and there is a lot of talk about, "more voltage. . . more power".

Now, my experience (with hobby) DC motors is that if you over power them (crank up the voltage) yes, they produce more power, spin faster, and then DIE rather quickly. They need to be run within their specs.

What is the deal with NetGain WarP motors? I was originaly looking at the WarP 11 and assumed it was a 72V motor, as that is what the graphs dictate, and thus only producing about 38HP, and around 142ft/lb of torque. But how is Warp Factor III making 1700HP? Is this sustainable? Or are you going to cook those motors?

Or is it just a matter of going high pack voltage and letting the controller keep the output at a max of 72V (but this would not provide any extra power to the motor, just keep "top voltage" to the motor and increase range)

Thanks for any info you got.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

1700HP or whatever you can get out of the specifically race built Netgain Warp motor that is used in the Warp Factor III is designed to be sustainable through the 1/4 mile run. The motor being used in that car was built specifically for the 1/4 mile. Continue to have it floored for a whole mile and its possible it will melt the motor or destroy the commutator.

The rating charts showing 72 volts is to show its performance and efficiency at that voltage. Their official rating I think is still 170 volts max and it seems most cars are using that motor with a nominal battery voltage around 144 and 156v but with sag the actual voltage to the motor is lower. Running a 200 volt pack under load would reasonably drop voltage to where its still likely at a safe level in the mid to high 100's.

For a heavy car overloading becomes a bigger deal as motor windings and commutators get hot a higher voltage and RPM during acceleration within reasonable limits will be better than higher amperage to the motor at a lower RPM(and voltage) in the next gear.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Regarding price - don't forget the ancilary parts. My donor cost 3750, batteries 6k, controller 2k, motor 1700, charger 600 bucks... so all the 'main parts' of my car were less than 15,000. But when it's all said and done (and I just did my taxes) it cost almost 19k. Things like cables, fuses, switches, etc... it all adds up to quite a bit (4k in my case)


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

After days of reading I think my eyes are about to crack and fall out of my head. (don't you love chasing numbers, and punching the calculator)

I have a plan.


Motor: Warp 11
Transmission: Stock 3-on-the-tree manual
Controller: Evnetics Soliton1
Charger: Suggestions?. . . needs to be high voltage capable, 340V would match the Evnetics Soliton1 (I may DIY build one, saw a thread around here somewhere)
batteries: TBD see below
dc-dc converter: suggestions??? my stereo in my jeep draws about 150 amps nominally, and it does get turned up that loud often. might have to do without. (although, digital amps have come along way. . .)

The plan is this

Get the car, drive it around for fun this summer, but not too much as gas is too expensive and I need money for the conversion. Whilst having fun, determine rear end & trans. gear ratios. (tach. + GPS)
This winter, install the motor & controller
In the spring, install like 10 or so FLA's just in the trunk (strapped down) and do some W/mile testing. If I can get 11 miles with the test pack it will be worth my while. (I know performance will be non-existant at only 120V 100Ah with these, but I just need to figure the cars milage)
Once the W/mile is determined, rob a bank and purchase LiFePo's, light up the tires (maybe) and go get groceries with the kids, laughing all the way.

The goal with this car is going to be simplicity. To start, everything will be air cooled if it can. Later I may fancy things up with liquid cooling/heating (think cold winter driving - the minivan does it now, this will have to)

I live in Nova Scotia, Canada so I need suggestions as to where I can buy parts. I know of canev.com, but they are on the W(rong) cost. Any reputable shops on the East Coast, if in the USA they would have to ship to Canada.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

you'll like this answer because it involves more eyestrain: there are Edsel clubs online that can give you details on tranny ratios and differential. Should be a tag on the diff with a ratio number, but may not be after all these years. Shame you didn't get an overdrive trans as the ratio is 4.10 ish.

I did the 10 FLA trip, went with 16 which is 1280 lbs. At the prices for 16, it ALMOST makes sense to buy lithium because you are 1/3 of the way to a lipo pack. Perhaps in a year or two they will be cheaper. BTW everywhere I want to go in Reno involves uphill travel. I'm guessing flatlands are easier.

I am jealous of your build, however.


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> I did the 10 FLA trip, went with 16 which is 1280 lbs. At the prices for 16, it ALMOST makes sense to buy lithium because you are 1/3 of the way to a lipo pack.


The Edsel does not have a stock rear end, it was swapped for highway speed, (with the I-6 ICE) I am pretty sure it was about a 2.59 or so. (I think it will need to change, but there are a lot of options for a ford 9") It was going to be perfect for the Azure AC55 (2000 rpm @ 65 mph) As for the trans, I have not found gear ratios for the standard, only automatics.

My LiFePo pack is going to be about 40kW, and the test FLA will only be 12kW. So the cost of the FLA's will be $1,311.00 Taxes in. The LiFePo's will be more like 30K, the initial FLA investment will be worth it to know "exactly" what the W/mile will be (just need to estimate based on weight change)


EDIT: found the trans ratios Go here and click "detailed specs" at the bottom

Number of gears: 3

Gear ratios:

I 2.4 
II 1.49
III 1
R 2.86


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

Well as of this morning this hole plan went down the tubes. The mini van bit the dust 

I think I will just plant a garden and become a hermit. . .


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

ok, that last post was a REAL bad day, I got fooled and the man got me down. I also lost my temper. As for he minivan, who cares it's getting replaced. (It still runs, just doesn't always work)

I bought a 98 Mazda so I can drive that fule sipper instead of the gas guzzler (van) It was $800.00 CAD and seems like it will be fine. No rust, doesn't need anything.

Back to the Edsel. . . I have a little less money now, but we are still going ahead with it. My Jeep is almost fixed and ready to be sold. (and this will begin it all)

Still looking for suggestions as to where to shop. At this point it is CANEV or one of the sponsors listed to your right.

*takes a deep breath*


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Chad said:


> What is the deal with NetGain WarP motors? I was originaly looking at the WarP 11 and assumed it was a 72V motor, as that is what the graphs dictate, and thus only producing about 38HP, and around 142ft/lb of torque. But how is Warp Factor III making 1700HP? Is this sustainable? Or are you going to cook those motors?


The idea of a Ford Edsel Electric Car is very appealing. 

With Series Wound DC Motors, it is very difficult to get a controller for it that does Regen braking. However, Series Wound DC Motors are popular in Electric Car Conversions.

On a different note, I believe Azure Dynamics applied for bankruptcy protection. Not sure how that will affect supply of Azure parts in the short term. 

Kind Regards
CrazyAl


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## Chad (Aug 1, 2008)

well, this got put behind about a year. The Jeep should be finished and sold soon. . . then the Edsel will be coming home for the winter.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Chad

Sorry about earlier in the year, glad you're doing better!

Good to see you in the Scottdrive thread! Think you're on to something with that motor for your conversion! Or, go take a look at the DIY AC motor thread I started, Shortbus has eluded to a Very interesting type of motor, google the Switched Reluctance Motor! Interesting, but maybe a bit more complicated for DIY... Then again, might be worth it, certainly be fun


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