# High power low weight motors like the teslas?



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi and welcome to our community! 

I have searched a long time for a strong AC motor but didn't find anything except AC propulsion and UQM. But they won't deal with customers like us, but only with major car manufacturers. There are some others that have excellent numbers on their specification sheets but no product 

Rather look at a good 11" DC motor (Warp or Kostov) and a Zilla or Soliton1 controller if you want performance


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Telsa motors are custom made.


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

so basically we are out of luck? can't we go to the guys that make teslas motor and tell them to make one for us? haha.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

UBCECC said:


> so basically we are out of luck? can't we go to the guys that make teslas motor and tell them to make one for us? haha.


Find them and try


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## unclematt (May 11, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> so basically we are out of luck? can't we go to the guys that make teslas motor and tell them to make one for us? haha.


 Feel free to join one of the motor build threads and get creative!


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

aren't they buliding a 25-30kw motor? that's rather low performance compare to the siemens motor.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

UBCECC said:


> so basically we are out of luck? can't we go to the guys that make teslas motor and tell them to make one for us? haha.


That would be nice huh? I bet it is under patent protection and the only place you could buy it from is Telsa at a huge markup, they are broke and near bankruptcy.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Sunking said:


> they are broke and near bankruptcy.


Say What? Where is the backup for this statement? Sounds like more internet garbage 


Pete


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Sunking said:


> I bet it is under patent protection


Hey Sun,

Maybe not. I think it is basically the ACP motor which has been around for nearly 20 years, just refined. You want one? All you need to do is hire a few smart guys and give them several million dollars. Or buy a Tesla and copy the motor.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> I've been searching every where for a motor similar to the tesla roadsters motor. 3 phase AC, 110lb. 185kw. Who supply them with their motor? Where can I get a similar one? I noticed the Siemens 67kw motor is kinda similar but it is still twice as heavy and it appears they are not even in production anymore?


You might check with these guys http://www.calmotors.com/products.php?category=products&page=sportscar


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Say What? Where is the backup for this statement?


Pete there is so many news stories out on Telsa I am a bit suprized by your reaction

Telsa Ask Fed for $455 M to stay affloat and ask customers to pay $50K up front before making vehicles to be delivered in 2010.

Telsa Lays off employees and delays S Car

Another Telsa Lay Off


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2009)

Sunking said:


> Pete there is so many news stories out on Telsa I am a bit suprized by your reaction
> 
> Telsa Ask Fed for $455 M to stay affloat and ask customers to pay $50K up front before making vehicles to be delivered in 2010.
> 
> ...


Asking the Feds does not constitute bankruptcy nor does layoffs. I still take information from Businessweek and NYTimes with a grain of salt. Many journalists only go for sensationalism and not the full truth of the story. Damn, I hate that kind of stuff. Much is speculation and that is not news at all. 

Pete


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Well Pete even the company says it is in trouble. I don't need to know any more than that.

Laid off 25% of the workforce, closed the Detroit office, and needs a loan from the Fed to stay in biz.


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

UBCECC said:


> aren't they buliding a 25-30kw motor? that's rather low performance compare to the siemens motor.


Actually it seems like that both calmotors and tesla are reporting the peak power of the AC motor. If you look at calmotors's specs for GP250, it states 200+kW but continuous power is only 100kW and that is at 400V and up.
I suppose Tesla is a similar story.
When comparing to Warp/Kostov, you should therefore at least triple the power to get peak; hence you now get 80-120kW which is not that far especially given the voltage difference.
Dual versions of both Kostov (http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors/kostovlineofevmotors/and) and Netgain (http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/custom_motors/Siamese9/) will even surpass 200-250kW as peak.
What I notice is that it looks like the AC (1.5-2 times) cannot take the amp abuse typical of DC (3-4 times) motors.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Plamenator, that is the one spec people tend to forget is that indeed the HP ratings used by Tesla is PEAK HP which it can sustain for a limited time before the thermal protection kicks in to limit current.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

You can't talk about kW without mentioning the weight. Maybe the Kostov dual and Warp siamese have over 200kW peak but they weight 3-4 times the ACP/Tesla motor


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

Indeed. The difference is mostly due to voltage.
If a single Kostov/Warp could take 400V+ than it would be even more powerfull than AC kg for kg (because DC has copper in rotor rather than aluminum and rotor field is not inducted but directly fed from battery) but commutation issues will not let it go to 400V.
If you want to make a fair comparison you should use the same voltage.
And if (or when) electric cars become dominant, what do you think the mass voltage would be?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Seems like all OEMs use 300-400V. For higher performance cars we'll probably see even higher voltages (Mercedes SLC concept --> 600V) because batteries are current limited.

So theoretically, if the demand exists, you could make a single 400V, 200kW 11" motor?

BTW You know that there's a Warp 11 High Voltage, 250+kW, 9000RPM motor in the pipeline?

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35627&highlight=future+netgain


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

Frankly I doubt that the major automakers will go to 300V - it just seems too dangerous, but they may find a way around it so I will keep an open mind 
Yes, I did hear about the Warp HV, though there are some irregularities there. For example advancing the brushes on an interpoled motor actually worsens commutation... and will not let you know to move from 288V to 336V.
Anyway, I suspect that interpoles open the way for DC to go to 250-300V max. For example the real problem of Kostov 9" and 11"s is not voltage - they safely go to 220-248-? volts but there rpm will kill the collector and judging by Netgain, we both do not have suitable rotor configurations to go above 200V at safe rpm.
This is the reason Netgain is putting the 9" collector into an 11" motor - so that the smaller collector can tolerate the 9000rpm announced at the new higher voltage 
At Kostov we are also working on improving collectors to achieve at least 8000 safe rpm (9000 seems too much frankly) and hence higher than 192V but only testing will tell if we are successfull.
We also have a project to upgrade the 13" to handle 6000-8000rpm at 248-288V but again theory takes a back seat to testing so will see in the next 6 months if we are successfull.
It is probably the first time that there is competition in hobby EV DC motors, so expect great things to come


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Well Pete even the company says it is in trouble. I don't need to know any more than that.
> 
> Laid off 25% of the workforce, closed the Detroit office, and needs a loan from the Fed to stay in biz.


Sunking,

You need to post up to date links, not year old articles.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/technology/tesla_profitability/
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1034027_tesla-turns-a-corner---and-a-profit
http://www.treehugger.com/files/200...milestone-109-roadster-electric-cars-july.php

That took about 30 seconds to find something relevant.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think you need to compare equal voltages when the advantage of one technology permits higher voltage than another. AC can easily handle the higher voltages and higher RPM's which helps give it the higher power to weight ratio. If DC can't hit similar voltage and RPM it probably can't give the same power to weight performance. Peak power is usually only a temporary condition in an auto anyway, be it EV or ICE, so if you can do it in a lighter package you gain efficiency across the board.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I don't think you need to compare equal voltages when the advantage of one technology permits higher voltage than another. AC can easily handle the higher voltages and higher RPM's which helps give it the higher power to weight ratio. If DC can't hit similar voltage and RPM it probably can't give the same power to weight performance. *Peak power is usually only a temporary condition in an auto anyway,* be it EV or ICE, so if you can do it in a lighter package you gain efficiency across the board.


I can't fully agree with the bold text. 

We can't take 80kW continuous rated motors with a 20 sec peak of 200kW and say it's a 200kW motor. What if I want to drive 200km/h for a longer period? 


I know that this sounds insane for you guys in the US but I often drive 300km/h on our excellent new freeways. Most people drive over 160 km/h (100 mph) most of the time on highways. When I'm in a hurry I drive over 200 km/h for couple of hours. Such speeds are nothing uncommon in Europe.

That's why I think that electric motors can't succeed in EV without liquid cooling. Some reported that Tesla is overheating and we know they have probably the best drive train on the market


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I can't fully agree with the bold text.


I did say *usually*  Most of the world does not see extended speed like that. I believe the newer Tesla Roadster Sport has much better cooling and fewer overheating issues, and it's still air cooled. Certainly liquid cooling will be better, and probably their next step. The Calmotors setups are liquid cooled so I would think they would have longer peak output ratings.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> ......... I think that electric motors can't succeed in EV without liquid cooling.


Hi Cro,

I tend to agree with you 



> What if I want to drive 200km/h for a longer period?


But here is where you get into the problem. What is the sense of having a motor which could do such duty if you don't have the electrical energy storage system for it? It will be awhile before the battery or capacitor or fuel cell becomes available for 2 or 3 hours of 200 km/h travel electrically.

But keep pressing.

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> What is the sense of having a motor which could do such duty if you don't have the electrical energy storage system for it? It will be awhile before the battery or capacitor or fuel cell becomes available for 2 or 3 hours of 200 km/h travel electrically.


Oh yeah, I totally forgot to think about that 

But you also forgot something... PEHVs with a setup like the Volt (which in my opinion makes the most sense) will have the ability to drive further at higher speeds. They have a combustion engine but only the electric motors are providing propulsion.


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

Cro, do you not have speed limits, traffic cameras and policeman in Croatia?
I cannot even think about the bribe I have to pay if they catch me with 300km/h in Bulgaria..


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Plamenator said:


> Cro, do you not have speed limits, traffic cameras and policeman in Croatia?
> I cannot even think about the bribe I have to pay if they catch me with 300km/h in Bulgaria..


We have but the pictures of traffic cameras don't count as evidence on court.  We have interceptor cars in civil but everyone knows what cars they're driving.

I'm traveling a lot trough Europe. They got cameras and police everywhere but you can see them on time and slow down. People in Germany, Italy, Austria ect. are driving much faster than the speed limits allow.

Swiss has very high penalties so people there stick to the limits.

I'm not saying that such speeds are responsible but a lot of people that are spending a lot of money on high class cars won't pay for a car that can't maintain 200km/h speed.

Btw. I'm a hobby race driver and nkow what I'm doing. Most of time I drive slow, but sometimes, when the conditions allow it I hit the pedal to the metal  

Don't try this at home 










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_la3zzs6i8&feature=channel_page


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## neanderthal (Jul 24, 2008)

Another thought about motor weight... I tend to think that motor weight is a less relevant factor, considering the weight of the vehicle/ batteries. consider a 100lb motor vs a 200 lb motor. The extra 100lbs is in a 3000lb car, that's like 3 percent of the overall weight of the car. If the 200lb motor is superior in in any other way besides weight, (ex. price, or peak power or continuous power,) I would take the heavy one. Overall efficiency is not hugely effected by a 3 percent weight change. 

I think this is more relevant in a ground-up design. In a conversion we need to worry about weight for more important reasons, like suspension etc.

On the other hand, no one would complain about being able to carry an extra 100lbs of batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

neanderthal said:


> On the other hand, no one would complain about being able to carry an extra 100lbs of batteries.


Exactly, and with lithium that's a lot of potential range and/or power.


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

so does calmotors have their motor setup available to the public? it seems pretty impressive.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> I've been searching every where for a motor similar to the tesla roadsters motor. 3 phase AC, 110lb. 185kw. Who supply them with their motor? Where can I get a similar one? I noticed the Siemens 67kw motor is kinda similar but it is still twice as heavy and it appears they are not even in production anymore?


Try the thread on 400Hz motors. Very high power to weight ratio in aircraft induction motors.

Sam.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> I can't fully agree with the bold text.
> 
> We can't take 80kW continuous rated motors with a 20 sec peak of 200kW and say it's a 200kW motor. What if I want to drive 200km/h for a longer period?
> 
> ...


If an ideal battery could exist for the speeds you desire for long periods then one way to help solve the heating problem is to use an air intake system. At 300 Km/h so much air is moving that one could build an air tunnel such that the air that passes through is directed to the motor cooling fins. This is not as good as water cooling, but it could work. Problem lies in the fact though that for hill climbing requiring peak HP or continuous stop and go reduces the effectiveness of the air tunnel since air is not moving near as fast, but for highway commute at your speeds where speed is held relatively constant it would work.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> so does calmotors have their motor setup available to the public? it seems pretty impressive.


Yes. I think I've seen $15-$20K price quotes but you should contact them directly and see what they say.


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

samborambo said:


> Try the thread on 400Hz motors. Very high power to weight ratio in aircraft induction motors.
> 
> Sam.


link please? I tried but I was unable to find it.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> link please? I tried but I was unable to find it.


 http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/400-hz-motors-35108.html


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVE - Electro Vehicles Europe has developed a 90kw nominal 150kw peak motor which looks pretty small and lightweight...they claim it can deliver 500nm peak torque also...

Quote from an email with EVE...
_90kw motor would cost around 4000 euros + vat and the tim600 inverter costs 2698,00 euros + vat.

we can offer the complete kit powerpAC90 which will look similar to the following:
http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/details.asp?prodid=EVE04&cat=0&path=53
which will include in a single case also the dc/dc converter, the onboard charger, main conactor, fuses, etc.
for a fast, easy and reliable EV conversion._

150kw for 6.7K EUR = 10K USD

Contact info is on the website...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Didn't see any weights for the motors on that page


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Didn't see any weights for the motors on that page


I don't imagine it would be any heavier than the MES DEA motor 200-250 that Jack R. is working with...

But if you want specs, you can always contact them directly....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought maybe you knew since you emailed them. I guess at this point we don't really know if they are light weight motors.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Quote from an email with EVE...
> _90kw motor would cost around 4000 euros + vat and the tim600 inverter costs 2698,00 euros + vat._...


Hi Bowser,

Odd that they have the DMC524, 100 kW inverter for 19,200 euros and the TIM600W inverter for 2,698 euros rated at 150 kW. Something smells fishy.  You goin' to buy this set up?

Regards,

major


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Bowser,
> 
> Odd that they have the DMC524, 100 kW inverter for 19,200 euros and the TIM600W inverter for 2,698 euros rated at 150 kW. Something smells fishy.  You goin' to buy this set up?
> 
> ...


I am not sure what the DMC524 is, is that the one that mates to the AC55 motor?

However i did find it interesting that they are using the same inverter that the MES DEA motors use for their own line of motors...e.g. TIM600...

The 150kw peak does sound like a very tempting setup...however I am still in my planning phase.. I was offering the info to anyone who would want to further research the setup....Maybe we can have our European Forum Friends check the company out for us...to make sure everything is on the up 'n' up??...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I am not sure what the DMC524 is, is that the one that mates to the AC55 motor?
> ...


No. It is Brusa. #1 on the AC controller page. 

http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/shop/browse.asp?cat=63&path=48,63&tipoprod=AC_controllers/inverters 

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I am not sure what the DMC524 is, is that the one that mates to the AC55 motor?
> 
> However i did find it interesting that they are using the same inverter that the MES DEA motors use for their own line of motors...e.g. TIM600...
> 
> The 150kw peak does sound like a very tempting setup...however I am still in my planning phase.. I was offering the info to anyone who would want to further research the setup....Maybe we can have our European Forum Friends check the company out for us...to make sure everything is on the up 'n' up??...


I have contacted Brusa directly. They want insane amounts of money for the inverter so I didn't ask anything else... 

Speaking of AC motors... I've always been impressed with that 200kW liquid cooled Siemens motor and never gave up to find him. I think that I'm pretty close to establish a supply with Siemens. Inverter included










I have no prices yet...


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I have contacted Brusa directly. They want insane amounts of money for the inverter so I didn't ask anything else...
> 
> Speaking of AC motors... I've always been impressed with that 200kW liquid cooled Siemens motor and never gave up to find him. I think that I'm pretty close to establish a supply with Siemens. Inverter included
> 
> ...


that motor is like perfect IMO. Are they still producing those?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> that motor is like perfect IMO. Are they still producing those?


200kw AC package (motor+inverter) for hopefully no more than 15K$....


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## UBCECC (Sep 5, 2009)

when will this be available?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

UBCECC said:


> when will this be available?


Hi UB,

It was available. I know a few who have them. Check out this report. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=125082&postcount=7 

Things aren't always as easy as they seem 

major


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## mbman88 (Feb 17, 2013)

Has anyone mentioned NetGain motors yet? They seem to have a mighty selection
http://www.go-ev.com/


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## Red Neck (Feb 1, 2013)

I think that as far as proper automotive induction motors actually available on markets to end customers, the ones in AEM motors topic are the only ones one can actually get hands on. And the gentleman making them was involved in every initial automotive development with AC motors. GM, FIAT, Mercedes, Ford (Think),.. Even the Tesla's inverter software was written by the lady that wrote his with him before and in general, everyone started with his motors and inverters. It is remarkable how recent AC drive trains actually are. Simply
because inverters came along only recently.


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