# AC guys - Ford Siemens Traction motor



## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

I see these motors listed on Ebay fairly often. Has anyone used this particular motor in a conversion? What controller was used? DMOC445? 

Does anyone have any other information on this motor? I wouldn't mind seeing a torque and hp (kW) curve vs RPM.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This question seems to pop up all the time, when new to EV's I asked the same thing about this motor. Unfortunately there is a reason these haven't been sold, they have a weird gear on the shaft that was made to connect directly to the special differential of the Ford EV Ranger and they need a specific, unavailable, controller. Other than that.......


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

I figured there must be some sort of catch. The motor seemed to provide everything one would need.

Oh well, back to looking at AC systems.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Joe, there are a few of these motors out there being used. I did a quick search on the EVAlbum for 'Ford Siemens' and came up with this one.

I've also heard of one or two others using it, so it can be done. The big problem is finding a controller for it. AC motors have to be paired with a specific controller (unlike DC motors), and the ones for this motor are next to impossible to find.

Depending on what size car you're building, you can find used AC55s on Ebay (I got mine there for $800) and then have it rebuilt by Azure Dynamics for another $800. The AC55 is a big motor though so you wouldn't want it unless you've got a decent-sized car (i.e. >3000lbs).


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## Joe_L (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks Sailfish, I have noticed a couple of AC55's on ebay for about 1500 US. 

Has anyone tried pairing another motor with Azures DMOC445 that is in between the AC24 and AC55 for torque? I am thinking something that offers 60-75 kW and about 150Nm peak. I just feel like there should be a motor in between these two. The AC55 is 60 kW but offers over 280Nm of torque meanwhile the AC24 is 30kW peak with about 85 Nm.

Also, who has use the AC55 in direct drive applications?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Joe_L said:


> Has anyone tried pairing another motor with Azures DMOC445 that is in between the AC24 and AC55 for torque? I am thinking something that offers 60-75 kW and about 150Nm peak. I just feel like there should be a motor in between these two.


I agree that there should be something inbetween. I think the AC24 was optimized for spam cans like Geo Metros. My SAAB only has a 69hp V4 engine but I'm not sure the AC24 can get close to even matching that, at least not without coming close to maxing out the voltage on the controller. But if I went with the used AC55 I'd wind up with an overweight motor that will just strain the suspension and take more battery overhead to haul around.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Joe_L said:


> Thanks Sailfish, I have noticed a couple of AC55's on ebay for about 1500 US.


Their starting bids are around $800 -- I got lucky on mine and no one bid against me. My guess is you could do the same. They come from a bunch of electric buses (each bus used two AC55s) and the guy has been trying to sell them for months. I think he's only sold two or three, so chances are you'd be the only one bidding.



Joe_L said:


> Has anyone tried pairing another motor with Azures DMOC445 that is in between the AC24 and AC55 for torque? I am thinking something that offers 60-75 kW and about 150Nm peak. I just feel like there should be a motor in between these two. The AC55 is 60 kW but offers over 280Nm of torque meanwhile the AC24 is 30kW peak with about 85 Nm.


I agree that AD should come up with another model motor between the 24 and the 55. They bought the license for these motors from Solectria and so far have not done anything other than just sell those two motors. Maybe they'll design one themselves soon. As I said earlier though, you wouldn't be able to use the DMOC445 with any other motor (unless you really know what you're doing) because they are all designed for specific motor/controller pairs.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> I agree that AD should come up with another model motor between the 24 and the 55. They bought the license for these motors from Solectria and so far have not done anything other than just sell those two motors. Maybe they'll design one themselves soon. As I said earlier though, you wouldn't be able to use the DMOC445 with any other motor (unless you really know what you're doing) because they are all designed for specific motor/controller pairs.



I thought the DMOC445 was reprogrammable. So it's really a firmware issue. Obviously that's easier said than done. But if someone knew how to hack it to work with the Siemens motor and offered a special adapter for the shaft they'd probably have a little niche there. Seems like something should be done to leverage these leftover motors.

In the meantime, I'd love to hear stories of people using AC55s with light (2000 pound) vehicles to see if they make them too unwieldy or not.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

saab96 said:


> I thought the DMOC445 was reprogrammable. So it's really a firmware issue.


It is to the extent that AD can program it to work with either the 24 or the 55. I don't know if it would work with other brands. Maybe. That's why I said 'unless you really know what you're doing.' 


saab96 said:


> In the meantime, I'd love to hear stories of people using AC55s with light (2000 pound) vehicles to see if they make them too unwieldy or not.


Me too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

saab96 said:


> I thought the DMOC445 was reprogrammable. So it's really a firmware issue. Obviously that's easier said than done. But if someone knew how to hack it to work with the Siemens motor and offered a special adapter for the shaft they'd probably have a little niche there. Seems like something should be done to leverage these leftover motors.


 I think you'd also have to do something about the lubrication since I think it's designed to use the lube from the Ford ranger Differential.


> In the meantime, I'd love to hear stories of people using AC55s with light (2000 pound) vehicles to see if they make them too unwieldy or not.


It's a 230lb motor, probably lighter than any ICE, certainly less than an ICE plus transmission which you could probably eliminate in a light vehicle with an AC55. Why do you think it would make anything unwieldy?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's a 230lb motor, probably lighter than any ICE, certainly less than an ICE plus transmission which you could probably eliminate in a light vehicle with an AC55. Why do you think it would make anything unwieldy?


In my SAAB the V4 engine lighter than the AC55. I was intending to keep the transmission although the regen might be a little hard on the gears. A car fully loaded with batteries puts a lot of strain on the suspension which is why so many people go with light trucks like the S-10. So I'm a little worried about that and the handling if it gets weighted down too much. If the weight isn't really contributing in some vital way to moving the vehicle, it's a liability.


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

you may want to check this guy's thread out, he seems to have solved the lubrication problem and is working on a controler
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/converting-2001-passat-15363.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's an interesting solution to the coupler problem, I hope it works out for him in real world usage. Seems as if he's still struggling with the controller setup.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thats me with the passat using the ford siemens motor =)

The lotus guy was the one who told me about the lubrication issue on the Ford motor. The motor actually has oil flowing though the inside where the coils of wire are. 

I have my prototype controller working from a 15 amp outlet, and hope to have enough batteries bought to run the controller at full current & voltage by the end of january =)

Heres a webpage with info on my conversion
http://etischer.com/awdev/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

2 questions for you:
1. Did you try to get a pre-made controller for it?

2. Do you think the oil flow was part of the cooling system and will that be a problem for you?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

1. Did you try to get a pre-made controller for it?
I have, and am still trying. Nobody wants to sell a controller without the motor. In the industrial world, you can hook up any AC motor to any AC inverter, you just need to perform an auto tune. I suppose the research into adding this feature to an EV inverter doesn't have the payoff that the industrial world has. 

I talked with evisol, they just told me it would be cost prohibitive for them to profile the motor. They suggested I get 5 people to split the cost. They have profiles for other siemens motors and even state on their website they support the PV5133 range of siemens motors which is what the ford motor is. The controller is not yet released, and cost is about $10k. There are a few industrial solutions out there, but they are also around $10k. 

2. Do you think the oil flow was part of the cooling system and will that be a problem for you?

The ford bearings were oil cooled. The sealed bearings I am using are thermally rated for steady state speed of 17k rpm. I have to assume they will not over heat. The motor is water cooled.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

How did this guy get the controller?

http://www.evalbum.com/1454

_"Siemens Simovert 6SV
I was lucky to purchase a used Simovert 
from the ever helpful Evisol whom I 
would recommend to anyone unreservedly."_

In this bad economy i would think they would want to sell whatever they could to whoever asked...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yea, lucky for him, they were still available! 



Bowser330 said:


> How did this guy get the controller?
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/1454
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, and Evisol is less than helpful these days as they never replied to my inquiry.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Doesnt make any sense, why not sell your product?

Maybe Ford is pressuring them to make it harder so that people can't use the ford e-motors?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The controller was a used unit made by Siemens that Evisol just happened to have I guess, not something they make or stock. I was not aware of that when I tried to contact them or I would not have bothered.


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## roadrailer (Jun 10, 2008)

etischer said:


> 1. Did you try to get a pre-made controller for it?
> I have, and am still trying. Nobody wants to sell a controller without the motor. In the industrial world, you can hook up any AC motor to any AC inverter, you just need to perform an auto tune. I suppose the research into adding this feature to an EV inverter doesn't have the payoff that the industrial world has.
> 
> Could you use an industrial inverter and basically connect your battery pack to the DC bus between the (industrial power supply) rectifier and the inverter? I was thinking of doing this; I anticipate some of the operational parameters (e.g. under/over voltage) would need to be modified for the working range of the EV batteries.
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

You can use an industrial inverter, but there aren't many 230 volt units that go up to 70kw. They are typically 460 volts, which means if they are rated 70kw, it is half the current needed to make the ford/siemens motor work. 

Tapping into the dc bus is no problem, many drives out there do not use ac power at all. 

>>Could you use an industrial inverter and basically connect your battery pack to the DC bus between the (industrial power supply) rectifier and the inverter? I was thinking of doing this; I anticipate some of the operational parameters (e.g. under/over voltage) would need to be modified for the working range of the EV batteries.

>>I was also wondering if the input rectifier could be used as a battery charger, with appropriate controls added. 

I suppose you could use another inverter and rectify the motor output to make a charger.


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