# [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello! My name is Corbin and I'm converting a '69 VW bug -- ideally with an AC system. My main goals: drive up "Highway 17" in the Santa Cruz mountains (not far from SJSU) - 55 MPH and a 5% grade for 7 minutes. I calculated that this will take about 33kW to maintain 55MPH. I want to cruise at 70 MPH on flat - that takes 27kW. I'll base range on how many batteries (lithium, of course!) I can fit into it. Do my calculations seem right?

Based on those numbers, I did an analysis:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/04/plug-bug-ev-ac-drive-motor-controller-selection/
and the only motor that has a 33+kw continuous rating is the MES-DEA 200-330 (40kW cont). The disadvantage is that the motor/controller is rather pricey ($13k) and I'd like to keep it around $8k.

Would the Azure Dynamics AC55 work for me? It operates at 2000RPM, which is a little low for a bug tranny. It is also heavy and not as efficient (87%).

Would the HPEV AC50 work? I can't find a continuous rating for that motor, but it puts out 50hp (37kw) max, which might not be enough for my hill. Also, it looks like it is matched with a Curtis controller maxing at 108VDC -- I'm worried that might limit my top speed.

I've posted on diyelectriccar.com but I haven't gotten much response, so any information anyone has would be greatly appreciated. Links to the motors are on my blog posting above.

thanks!
corbin dunn

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Corbin,

The HPEV AC50 is good for about 15 continuous HP. It should provide you
with about the same performance as the original engine as far as power, but
with more low end torque. I think the Lithium will be key so you are not
dragging all that weight up 17! I would have to do some calcs to determine
if 70 MPH no the level is doable. The bummer about doing this for a living
is that I would have to charge you $170 for these calcs, although the fee
would be credited to the purchase of a full kit

BTW, your calcs look pretty close to me.

Sincerely,

Wistar Rhoads
KTA Services, Inc.
www.kta-ev.com
20330 Rancho Villa Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-787-0896
760-787-9437 (Fax)


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of corbin dunn
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:16 AM
To: EVDL
Subject: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

Hello! My name is Corbin and I'm converting a '69 VW bug -- ideally with an
AC system. My main goals: drive up "Highway 17" in the Santa Cruz mountains
(not far from SJSU) - 55 MPH and a 5% grade for 7 minutes. I calculated that
this will take about 33kW to maintain 55MPH. I want to cruise at 70 MPH on
flat - that takes 27kW. I'll base range on how many batteries (lithium, of
course!) I can fit into it. Do my calculations seem right?

Based on those numbers, I did an analysis:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/04/plug-bug-ev-ac-drive-motor-cont
roller-selection/
and the only motor that has a 33+kw continuous rating is the MES-DEA 200-330
(40kW cont). The disadvantage is that the motor/controller is rather pricey
($13k) and I'd like to keep it around $8k.

Would the Azure Dynamics AC55 work for me? It operates at 2000RPM, which is
a little low for a bug tranny. It is also heavy and not as efficient (87%).

Would the HPEV AC50 work? I can't find a continuous rating for that motor,
but it puts out 50hp (37kw) max, which might not be enough for my hill.
Also, it looks like it is matched with a Curtis controller maxing at 108VDC
-- I'm worried that might limit my top speed.

I've posted on diyelectriccar.com but I haven't gotten much response, so any
information anyone has would be greatly appreciated. Links to the motors are
on my blog posting above.

thanks!
corbin dunn

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Welcome to the EVDL, Wistar! Nice to see you on board. KTA Services has a 
great pedigree. ;-) Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Wistar and Corbin,

I agree that Lithium is the way to go. I have a very similar car 
(Porsche 914) with the same transmission. While you could hook the AC55 
onto the transmission, I'm not sure the extra weight would be a good 
thing to have hanging out behind your bug. 

I've been looking at the HPEV AC50 as well as the Azure Dynamics AC24LS 
- both are comparable outputs. I have the AC24 in my 914 right now, and 
it can handle the hills of San Diego fine, but Hwy 17? I don't think 
the AC24 could do it. AC24LS could, though, especially if you have high 
voltage in your bug. 

Some figures to help you out: I'm getting 120Nm with 350v and 80a at 
3000rpm. The nice thing is by having the high voltage, the cables can 
be lighter (can use 2 cable instead of 2/0 or 1). My current wh/m is 
around 350, but I think I have a brake dragging. You will probably get 
somewhere in that range as well. Um, well, not while climbing, as I 
remember that road all too well (I used to live in Santa Cruz and 
commute to Palo Alto). 

Good luck!

Cheers,
Peter

P.S. start a blog so we can help out as you go along.

P.P.S. sorry for the resend, had to format as text, not HTML.



> Wistar Rhoads wrote:
> > Hello Corbin,
> >
> > The HPEV AC50 is good for about 15 continuous HP. It should provide you
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dale,

Thanks for the info and links (I hadn't seen grassroots EV yet) -- I think the AC50 would make the bug perform like a stock bug. My ideal goal is for better performance. I'd love it if it performed like a more modern car (not a race car, but something like the Prius).

--corbin





> dale henderson wrote:
> 
> > i've been looking at the AC50 for my 69 bug/bradley, there are other dealers with more info about that motor:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Wistar and Peter,

Wistar -- thanks for the info on the AC50 -- I did finally find the HPEV website (http://hpevs.com/) and dug up the 15hp continuous. That seems a little low for pushing up hwy 17. It probably would make it feel like a stock bug, and I would love to have more "umph" for pushing up it and general driving around (and I'm willing to pay more for that!). I think my calculations are conservative, but some values are guesses (drivetrain efficiency for instance). I'll definitely keep KTA in mind.

Peter -- I didn't notice the AC55 was so heavy (233lbs!) The figures on your conversion are great to know; how do you think it would do up something like hwy 17? Luckily I live at the top, so I only have to drive it once per commute, and I'm hoping to charge at work (I'm a software engineer at Apple). Did you put a VW transmission in your 914? If so, why? I'm also considering getting a high performance transmission/clutch (if such a thing exists for the bug) that can handle more torque.

I finally got a response from EVE in Italy; they have a 40kw cont motor that looks pretty good. I posted the PDF emailed to me at:
http://corbinstreehouse.com/misc/
I'm still curious about what controller goes with it, and how much it costs. The motor weighs 176 lbs; twice an AC24, but it is giving twice the performance! The trouble is, it might have a long lead time to get the motor, but I do need a few months to do the base restoration of the car anyways. I'm strongly considering the EVE, as it is (probably) more affordable than MES-DEA and can give better performance than the AC50 or Azure AC24.

Anyways, I appreciate the feedback, help and advice. My posts on the diyelectriccar site have been met by crickets. 

--corbin




> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Wistar and Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> > Corbin: It looks like the AC24 (Wye config) and the AC-50 have the same
> > torque output (well, close enough for govt work). Gut feel (no
> > scientific basis): I think that either the AC24, AC24LS or the AC-50
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Chris,

> Hm. In the hill climbing arena I drove my 94 Prizm (50kw Dolphin 
> controller and motor, AC vector, single speed transmission) from 
> Frederick MD to the Power of DC race half-way to Hagerstown. This 
> required driving west on I70 up the Appalachian mountains at a pretty 
> reasonable grade for 5-8 minutes.

That info definitely helps! Getting 100-120a @330v regen is pretty nice. I looked up some info on your motor so I can compare it to what I can purchase. I found this:

http://www.uselectricar.org/motorspec.pdf

and it looks like it is a 50kw *peak* motor, and 15kw sustained. The HPEV/HPGC AC50 is 15hp/11.1kw continuous and 60hp/44.7hp max. Maybe I should consider that motor at 108v, or the AC24LS. This 2006 'Benz is using the latter:

http://www.evalbum.com/3149


I'll try contacting the owner and seeing how they like hill performance.

--corbin


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

For your info:
All US Electricar had the same motor, both
the Prizm sedans and the S10 trucks.
The truck was close to 5000 lbs with batteries and driver
and geared (fixed reduction through manual gearbox without
shift lever, locked in 2nd gear) to redline 9000 RPM at 72 MPH
the sedan has a little taller gearing and gets close to 90 MPH
though I never thecked the spec of its max speed.

Some late modifications of Electricars crancked the output power
up to 80kW peak by reducing the current feedback (allowing higher
current through the IGBTs before limiting)
The US Electricar setup is close to AC Propulsion's driveline and
it is said that this is a predecessor to the EV1.

Interestingly the water temperature of the water-cooled motor
(and controller) never rose significantly, only the 3-phase motor 
wiring increased noticeably in temperature, due to its size, I think
it is barely 2 AWG.
Standard motor current limit is 250A the motor is spec'ed for 90V
and battery pack is 312V 84Ah in the truck, 300V 52Ah in the sedan.
(two parallel strings of AGMs, each in one side of the battery box,
in the truck the box is divided by the drive axle requiring a hump)

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

Hey Chris,

> Hm. In the hill climbing arena I drove my 94 Prizm (50kw Dolphin 
> controller and motor, AC vector, single speed transmission) from 
> Frederick MD to the Power of DC race half-way to Hagerstown. This 
> required driving west on I70 up the Appalachian mountains at a pretty 
> reasonable grade for 5-8 minutes.

That info definitely helps! Getting 100-120a @330v regen is pretty nice.
I looked up some info on your motor so I can compare it to what I can
purchase. I found this:

http://www.uselectricar.org/motorspec.pdf

and it looks like it is a 50kw *peak* motor, and 15kw sustained. The
HPEV/HPGC AC50 is 15hp/11.1kw continuous and 60hp/44.7hp max. Maybe I
should consider that motor at 108v, or the AC24LS. This 2006 'Benz is
using the latter:

http://www.evalbum.com/3149


I'll try contacting the owner and seeing how they like hill performance.

--corbin


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

I checked out a hill similar to 17 today (Fwy 15 southbound near the 
Qualcomm stadium) - the AC24 will not work for you. I quickly ran out of 
oomph and the controller got overheated. You'll need to see if the 
AC24LS can handle the situation better. If not, then Azure is off your 
list.

Cheers,
Peter

P.S. I'd be happy to send you my data recording of the drive.



> corbin dunn wrote:
> > Hey Chris,
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter, thanks!!! Based on the numbers I was figuring it wouldn't work. Definitely send me any data you have -- I'm interested to see it.

I'm actually back to strongly considering DC, and I'm tonight going to research how well a WarP 9 will do at a higher voltage. I won't have any of the regen benefits from going downhill, but I'm running out of AC options that aren't out of my budget range (which I still need to figure out 

corbin



> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I checked out a hill similar to 17 today (Fwy 15 southbound near the 
>> Qualcomm stadium) - the AC24 will not work for you. I quickly ran out of 
>> oomph and the controller got overheated. You'll need to see if the 
>> AC24LS can handle the situation better. If not, then Azure is off your 
>> list.

Pete:

Hm. I'm curious to compare systems if possible: What was the voltage and 
amp-draw of your car when it hit the overheat? Are you running a 150v or 
300v inverter? I see that the AC24 motor is air cooled, is this the same 
motor that was in the standard Solectra Force 4 doors? Is the controller 
air or water cooled?

And how long did it take to oomph?

If you're running a 150v system, and the peak power for the AC24 is only 
37kw then that would equal a battery draw of [email protected] my Prizm. I 
was pulling more than that sustained to climb the Appalachians.

Chris

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter C. Thompson <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Peter C. Thompson <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 May 2010 at 22:32, Christopher Zach wrote:
> 
> > I see that the AC24 motor is air cooled, is this the same motor that
> > was in the standard Solectra Force 4 doors?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you keep the manual gearbox?
That will help with slow/steep roads.
I see you live near Skyline in Los Gatos
and your road runs on the ridge except for the last
1500 ft or so, then it drops about 300 ft towards
Lower Hutchinson rd which drops another 300 ft or so.
Google maps - terrain is useful.
Street view was not yet photographed in your area, 
I can see no more than the stop sign and driveway
at the connection with CA 35 (Skyline).

Biggest challenge is high speed and steep, luckily
most of 17 is 50/55 MPH though many drive much faster.
Personally I like 9 for the lower speed and quiet
for that reason, but that does not bring you home
without a detour...

I presume you work behind BJ's on De Anza, which leads
straight to 9 (Big Basin Way) up the mountain from
Saratoga, but from there it goes 5 miles the wrong way
for you. CA 35 is again in the right direction and not
too steep. But 9 is also steep - just less fast than 17.
Using a gearbox will help at lower speed, even though 
many love to do direct drive when they have AC.
You can see grade climbing capabilities in tests of EVs
with expected performance values at the EV America website:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/light_duty/fsev/fsev_e
va_results.html

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug




> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Peter C. Thompson
> <[email protected]>wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave,

You say that even in 1st gear you could not or only crawl up a 10%
grade? 
I would say that is not very acceptable performance in mountainous
terrain.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dave Hale
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:11 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Peter C. Thompson


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave Hale wrote:
>


> Peter C. Thompson <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Corbin,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Christopher Zach wrote:
> >>> I checked out a hill similar to 17 today (Fwy 15 southbound near the
> >>> Qualcomm stadium) - the AC24 will not work for you. I quickly ran out of
> >>> oomph and the controller got overheated. You'll need to see if the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It looks like the AC24 and AC24LS are a bit higher speed lower torque motors
than the AC31 and AC50 with the curtiss controllers which are about the same
horsepower ratings. I have the AC31 in a small pickup, and while I have not
actually gotten it running yet, the specs are much more suitable for
climbing hills from the look of it. About twice the peak torque (which is a
good 35% more peak torque than the gas engine had), and the rated rpm and
peak rpm are about half that of the AC24. I have a number of 16 to 20%
grades around here, and hopefully it will climb them. The gas version of
the same truck can do it in 1st gear (about 18:1 overall reduction) with a
heavy load of rocks, just barely. We'll see....... it will probably depend
alot on cooling and how long it can sustain the peak values vs the
continuous values.

Z



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dave,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hm. I will have to see if I can figure out my climb without going back 
there myself. Right off the bat it looks like a 1,200 foot elevation 
change but I am not sure exactly where the hill begins. Could be 4-6 
miles of climb.

Regardless, sounds like a smaller hill. If we say 6 miles it's only a 
3.5% grade. So if I was pulling [email protected] comes out to a draw on 
the motor/controller of 40kw running at 70mph. As opposed to the normal 
[email protected] at 70mph on the highway or 18kw. Climb time was about 
5-6 minutes.

I also regenned down the other side of the hill, which would probably 
generate similar amounts of heat in the motor/controller as the climb, 
correct? (the arrow may be reversed, but I am still dumping heat) So 
another 4-5 minutes of that happily charging my pack. At which point I 
was back on level road and resumed cruise at 70mph for a few more miles 
to the exit.

Comparing that to Pete running 330v @150a (I'm assuming he is using an 
E-meter so will compare apples to apples since I was logging with an 
E-meter) he was pulling 49.5kw and E-temped his controller after 5 mins.

Moral might be that climbing long hills is *hard*, requires a lot of 
power, and heat is going to build up over time which needs to be 
removed. If you're thinking about regen you might also have to think 
about the fact that the motor and controller will be working in *both* 
directions.

I wish I had monitored the motor temp, however the Dolphin would have 
cut back if either the motor bell temp or the bottom of the cooling 
plate next to the IGBTs had overheated. So I wasn't E-temping the system.

I guess that's a question: How much heat can fans remove from a 
motor/controller as opposed to water cooling with a radiator. How much 
heat can the heat sink hold for transient limits, and how quickly can 
you cool that down?

Chris





> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> > Toporoute.com does not give the elevation for the route, but it is a
> > ~2000 ft climb over 7.88 miles, at speeds from 50mph to 70mph. This is a
> > 5% grade, but a consistent 5% over almost 8 miles.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, that is correct.



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dave,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave Hale wrote:
> Yes, that is correct.

That is odd. Using the mapmyroute site I can see that the Francis Ave, 
21227 hill by my house starts at an elevation of 56ft and peaks at 230 
feet in the space of a quarter mile.

I can accelerate up that from 30mph to 50mph no problem. I can stop in 
the middle and start off with no real problem either.

It's a 1320 foot distance, with a rise of 174 feet. So a grade of 13% 
(or 10% if I take it as 3/10ths of a mile).

I'll measure the distance tomorrow. But it's not a killer.

Chris


> 
>


> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Dave,
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> SteveS wrote:
> > On 5/4/2010 10:42 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> >> Hm. I will have to see if I can figure out my climb without going back
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,

I don't remember all of your wants and needs, but you might want to consider
using a series wound DC motor. While regeneration is not practical with
them, they are less expensive and are available in a wider power range. The
Advanced DC FB1-4001 will put out 100 HP peak and 28.5 continuous HP at 144
volts. The main issue with bugs has always been fitting enough batteries to
get a decent range. LiFEPO4 batteries would certainly improve this
dramatically.

Sincerely,

Wistar Rhoads
KTA Services, Inc.
www.kta-ev.com
20330 Rancho Villa Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-787-0896
760-787-9437 (Fax)



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of corbin dunn
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

Hi Wistar and Peter,

Wistar -- thanks for the info on the AC50 -- I did finally find the HPEV
website (http://hpevs.com/) and dug up the 15hp continuous. That seems a
little low for pushing up hwy 17. It probably would make it feel like a
stock bug, and I would love to have more "umph" for pushing up it and
general driving around (and I'm willing to pay more for that!). I think my
calculations are conservative, but some values are guesses (drivetrain
efficiency for instance). I'll definitely keep KTA in mind.

Peter -- I didn't notice the AC55 was so heavy (233lbs!) The figures on your
conversion are great to know; how do you think it would do up something like
hwy 17? Luckily I live at the top, so I only have to drive it once per
commute, and I'm hoping to charge at work (I'm a software engineer at
Apple). Did you put a VW transmission in your 914? If so, why? I'm also
considering getting a high performance transmission/clutch (if such a thing
exists for the bug) that can handle more torque.

I finally got a response from EVE in Italy; they have a 40kw cont motor that
looks pretty good. I posted the PDF emailed to me at:
http://corbinstreehouse.com/misc/
I'm still curious about what controller goes with it, and how much it costs.
The motor weighs 176 lbs; twice an AC24, but it is giving twice the
performance! The trouble is, it might have a long lead time to get the
motor, but I do need a few months to do the base restoration of the car
anyways. I'm strongly considering the EVE, as it is (probably) more
affordable than MES-DEA and can give better performance than the AC50 or
Azure AC24.

Anyways, I appreciate the feedback, help and advice. My posts on the
diyelectriccar site have been met by crickets. 

--corbin




> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Wistar and Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Care to share how you did this with your iPhone?

On May 3, 2010, at 11:50 PM, corbin dunn <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> >
> >> <
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sure! I meant to actually mention how, since it is quite handy.

Download iMapMyRide for the iPhone; it's free. Setup an account with them (also free). Then record with the app. Then login to iMapMyFitness.com and view your routes and elevation profiles. 

corbin




> John wrote:
> >
> >
> > Care to share how you did this with your iPhone?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can check how much energy you gained by going up,
in addition to maintaining your speed.
1200 ft up with a mass of about 3500 lbs is:
Potential Energy(Joule) = mgh
(mass times gravitational acceleration times height delta)
(in kg, m/s^2 and meter) = 1500 * 9.8 * 400 = 6000000 Joule
This is 6M Ws or 1600 Wh or 1.6 kWh.
Your draw was an additional 22kW for about 5 mins
which works out to be approx 1.8 kWh.
Close enough!

The heat capacity of water is unparalleled, that is why
it is used so often. Typical ICE will generate order of magnitude
100kW waste heat and the radiator can get rid of that, even when ambient
temps are high.
To get rid of 100kW by air cooling you need a *big* heatsink.
See the huge fins on an aircooled engine?

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

Hm. I will have to see if I can figure out my climb without going back
there myself. Right off the bat it looks like a 1,200 foot elevation
change but I am not sure exactly where the hill begins. Could be 4-6
miles of climb.

Regardless, sounds like a smaller hill. If we say 6 miles it's only a
3.5% grade. So if I was pulling [email protected] comes out to a draw on
the motor/controller of 40kw running at 70mph. As opposed to the normal
[email protected] at 70mph on the highway or 18kw. Climb time was about
5-6 minutes.

I also regenned down the other side of the hill, which would probably
generate similar amounts of heat in the motor/controller as the climb,
correct? (the arrow may be reversed, but I am still dumping heat) So
another 4-5 minutes of that happily charging my pack. At which point I
was back on level road and resumed cruise at 70mph for a few more miles
to the exit.

Comparing that to Pete running 330v @150a (I'm assuming he is using an
E-meter so will compare apples to apples since I was logging with an
E-meter) he was pulling 49.5kw and E-temped his controller after 5 mins.

Moral might be that climbing long hills is *hard*, requires a lot of
power, and heat is going to build up over time which needs to be
removed. If you're thinking about regen you might also have to think
about the fact that the motor and controller will be working in *both*
directions.

I wish I had monitored the motor temp, however the Dolphin would have
cut back if either the motor bell temp or the bottom of the cooling
plate next to the IGBTs had overheated. So I wasn't E-temping the
system.

I guess that's a question: How much heat can fans remove from a
motor/controller as opposed to water cooling with a radiator. How much
heat can the heat sink hold for transient limits, and how quickly can
you cool that down?

Chris





> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> > Toporoute.com does not give the elevation for the route, but it is a
> > ~2000 ft climb over 7.88 miles, at speeds from 50mph to 70mph. This is
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 4 May 2010 at 14:16, Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > To get rid of 100kW by air cooling you need a *big* heatsink.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Christopher Zach <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dave Hale wrote:
> > > Yes, that is correct.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Cor,



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Do you keep the manual gearbox?
> > That will help with slow/steep roads.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

If you call our 408 numbers they still ring in our home,
only our home is now in India, we moved to the other
side of the globe ;-)

Old Santa Cruz highway brings you up to Bear Creek rd
how do you get to Santa Cruz Ave in Los Gatos? Do you
still follow 17 for that part?
Or do you go via Sanborn or Bohlman rd to Saratoga?

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of corbin dunn
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 9:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC motor selection for '69 VW bug

Hi Cor,



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Do you keep the manual gearbox?
> > That will help with slow/steep roads.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter, thanks!!! Based on the numbers I was figuring it wouldn't work. Definitely send me any data you have -- I'm interested to see it.

I'm actually back to strongly considering DC, and I'm tonight going to research how well a WarP 9 will do at a higher voltage. I won't have any of the regen benefits from going downhill, but I'm running out of AC options that aren't out of my budget range (which I still need to figure out 

corbin



> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Cor,
Cool -- my sister in law is in India too.

The back route up highway 17 is to take 17 south till Bear Creek -- go over the bridge and then this drops you into Old Santa Cruz Highway. That goes straight up to Summit rd -- no need for Sanborn or Saratoga. 

--corbin




> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi All,
As a follow up on this thread, I'm currently deciding between going DC with the WarP 9 and an AC system from EVE. I think the WarP9 at 156V will make it up my hill (again, Highway 17, ~5% grade for 7 minutes) without much problems, but I'm still looking into AC as an option since I think I could benefit from the regen on my (daily) hilly commute. It might cost $2k more -- given that my total costs are probably in the $20k range, $2k is only 10% more and might be worth it for 10% more range.

I graphed the RPM vs Torque for the EVE AC30 (nominal and max), EVE AC30 (max), HPGC AC50, WarP9 (@144v), and Azure Dynamics AC55. It is here:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/05/plug-bug-more-motor-comparisions/

Again, I'm happy to share the Numbers/Mac spreadsheet with anyone -- I can probably export to excel too (email me for it). 

Now, I'm wondering if the EVE AC30 would be sufficient for my hill. Does anyone have any opinions or suggestions? 

Also, does anyone have a graph/spreadsheet (torque, power) of the WarP9 at higher voltages?

Thanks,
corbin

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > As a follow up on this thread, I'm currently deciding between going DC with the WarP 9 and an AC system from EVE. I think the WarP9 at 156V will make it up my hill (again, Highway 17, ~5% grade for 7 minutes) without much problems, but I'm still looking into AC as an option since I think I could benefit from the regen on my (daily) hilly commute. It might cost $2k more -- given that my total costs are probably in the $20k range, $2k is only 10% more and might be worth it for 10% more range.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > corbin dunn wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >> As a follow up on this thread, I'm currently deciding between going DC with the WarP 9 and an AC system from EVE. I think the WarP9 at 156V will make it up my hill (again, Highway 17, ~5% grade for 7 minutes) without much problems, but I'm still looking into AC as an option since I think I could benefit from the regen on my (daily) hilly commute. It might cost $2k more -- given that my total costs are probably in the $20k range, $2k is only 10% more and might be worth it for 10% more range.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

Your graph use different torque measurements between the motors represented
and as such is very misleading and incorrect. Some are nm while others are
ft-lbs.

Also, if you really wanted to accurately compare these motors, wouldn't you
need to ensure all motors were run at the same voltage and draw the same
amount of current?

eg. a Warp 9 at 300amps produces ~80nm of torque, while at 1000amps it
should produce a huge ~321nm of torque

Leslie






> corbin dunn <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > > corbin dunn wrote:
> > >> Hi All,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Leslie,



> WRX STI wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Corbin,

Sorry if I came across as attacking your post, that was not my intention at
all and I apologise if that is how it was interpreted. I just noticed the
data provided by EXE for the ACxx motors were in NM and the comparison plot
you created was in ft-lbs and didn't realise you had done the conversion
manually from nm to ft-lbs before plotting the data - sorry.

The data for the Netgain motors is provided on the Netgain website, the
"1000amp" data is just an extrapolation of the provided data, but should be
close to the actual results.

For a quick comparison of the potential torque produced Netgain motors at
different amps, I find it is easiest to look at the values listed at
evsource HERE <http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp9.php>(scroll down the page).

Leslie








> corbin dunn <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hi Leslie,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Leslie,

It's no problem -- I just wanted to make sure I didn't make any major errors. I have seen www.evsource.com's data on the potential torque; I'm guessing they just applied some equation to get the torque at 1000amps. It's mainly the equation that I'm searching for at this point, or a reference for how they did it. I now found a citation for how long the Netgain motors can be run at particular amps (see my prior email to the list). I'm mainly just trying to become educated on the manner before I drop $20k into my conversion 

thanks,
corbin





> WRX STI wrote:
> 
> > Hi Corbin,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> It's no problem -- I just wanted to make sure I didn't make any major
> errors. I have seen www.evsource.com's data on the potential torque; I'm
> guessing they just applied some equation to get the torque at 1000amps. It's
> mainly the equation that I'm searching for at this point, or a reference for
> how they did it. I now found a citation for how long the Netgain motors can
> be run at particular amps (see my prior email to the list). I'm mainly just
> trying to become educated on the manner before I drop $20k into my
> conversion 
>
>
It should be clear that the values listed there are for reference only. The
only values that have actually been produced from real-world data collecting
is on the WarP 13.

The other values were obtained by running extrapolations on the dyno data
that was provided at lower amps. At some point, I'll post on the motor
pages how the results were obtained. They were all just linear regressions,
which should not be correct. In a series wound motor, torque is
proportional to the square of the current. However, the WarP 13 data is
very close to linear, so it seemed like a fair assumption to make with the
other motors, especially since within the range of available data, the
results were highly linear as well. I would definitely appreciate any
feedback on this that would lead to more accurate extrapolations. At some
point, real data will be available!

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Does anyone know if a Nissan Leaf would be able to handle the hills in
question here? How about with air conditioning on and four passengers?

warmly,

Otin
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm sure as heck hoping it will. I have several friends that have one on order 

For reference, my friend Ken's RAV 4 EV has been to my house quite a few times with no problems. 

--corbin



> Otin Kyad wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know if a Nissan Leaf would be able to handle the hills in
> > question here? How about with air conditioning on and four passengers?
> ...


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