# Not really an EV: Volvo V70 AWD hybrid project



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Hello all,

I'm an absolute EV noob. With that being said, I'm:


A reasonably accomplished mechanic with a pretty comprehensive set of tools. I've fabricated custom parts before but haven't fabbed a complete car.
Looking for a supplemental electric motor drive system, to either:
-run the rear drivetrain while retaining the ICE to drive the front wheels 

OR


-tap into the AWD unit attached to the FWD drivetrain and simply 'boost' that system, effectively converting solely to FWD

Hoping the car will get me back and forth to work and daycare (a 25 mile round trip) and possibly be used for longer highway commutes. I'm not looking to be independent from the ICE...just looking to get maybe a 30% boost in fuel economy, at best. If I could go from 22mpg avg to somewhere in the 28 to 30mpg range, this project would be a success for me.
Willing to spend about $2000 at this point, unless that's dubbed as completely unrealistic.
Open to consideration of any parts, as I haven't been able to find another project like this one.
Thanks for any help or opinions!
Mike


----------



## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I think that would be a good way to go . I'll bet you would be surprised by the mileage increase . You may need to spend a little more on the project though . Depends on how good you are at finding good deals . J.W.


----------



## JeffPritchard (Jun 10, 2008)

Glad to hear I'm not alone in this idea. 

I have an '06 Chrysler 300C. There was an "AWD" option for this model but mine does not have it. I've been thinking about getting two fairly smallish EV motors and get some of the front wheel drive hubs and setting up an "electric assist ICE vehicle.

One interesting aspect of doing this on my car is that it has the option that shuts down half of the cylinders when the ICE is under very low load (in practice, this turns out to be mostly just when you are "coasting" with your foot completely off the gas). That means I should be able to get a really good mileage boost by electrically driving the front wheels.

The idea would be to start off really simple, with some sort of manual hand-operated but break pedal disabled activation of the electric motors once cruising speed is reached.

Lord only knows when I'll get around to doing this though. I've got 40-eleven other projects ahead of it. Mostly I'm just here to get my EV fix vicariously by reading about other people who are actually doing it. 

cheers,
jp


----------



## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi sikbrik best of luck with your project.
I have been playing with the idea of converting a 4x4 to dual drive. Please Keep us posted as you go. As for me the more I read the less I know. I whant to build something but cannot decide on anything.

take care, DP


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

That sounds like a super sweet idea, JP. Imagine hearing 'That thing got a pusher?'  The Hemi gods want to strike me dead right now!

I have to admit, I'm mostly here to learn and apply whatever I can when I get the time, although restoring that old El Camino in the garage seems a waste if I won't be able to find gasoline for it when its done!  That's why I've considered putting this project first (at least as far as car projects go...the house is always another story!)

The idea of an ICE that drops cylinders based on load seems absolutely perfect for this! Great starting point...if I had only started with one of those! I was discussing the idea of dropping cylinders via programmable injectors/ignition with a friend but it would seem to work better if you could also open the valves, reducing the drag of the cylinders that aren't working. You'd need either a ridiculously advanced camshaft or the newest high-tech electromagnetic valve activation systems, though, so alas no DIY on that one!  I've heard that Chrysler did a much better job of it, though, than Caddy did back in the 80's.

Back to basics, though, both of our designs are basically a 'pusher trailer' that's not hooked into a trailer but, in our cases, directly into the driveline. Since we'd be relying on the ICE for most of the work, most of the time, the motor can stay relatively small and would provide a decent MPG/range improvement. 

Glad to know you're here! Thanks for chiming in!


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

> the more I read the less I know


DP, that's the most true statement I've read in a while! I think that if we go into this project understanding that we don't know it all, we'll be successful! Best of luck in deciding on your project. 

I need the safety, the room/functionality, etc. I do a lot of long trips so an EV isn't practical. I also believe that any 'middle' technology is a good thing until the powers that be (me included, as a sometimes wasteful American citizen) get their collective heads out of their rumps.

All that said, I'll be starting simple and doing something very similar to the 'Electrocharger' idea that never seemed to get completed. It'll be bigger than an alternator, run in place of my driveshaft (instead of replacing my alternator)

...and once I hit the lottery, the batteries will be partially assisted by surface mount solar panels on the roof of my wagon.


----------



## JeffPritchard (Jun 10, 2008)

I haven't seen much here about trailers. I've been thinking that would be a great way for a company to sell partial EV conversions. Finally a use for the trailer hitch on those millions of big SUV's that people are stuck with.

I'm thinking you could radio control most of it, and then use the brake light wire in the trailer hitch to control a safety cut-out. Could be an almost zero installation sort of a thing. Just lock it into your trailer hitch, connect the standard trailer electric plug, put a fake gas pedal over the real one that sends a signal to the trailer...and away we go!

cheers,
jp


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

u r right, jp...not much here about pushers, especially this kind (since it's the reverse of what most are doing) but the electrical guys are here. I'm a nuts and bolts kind of mechanic...just now mastering EFI conversions and here I go jumping into EV stuff already. Need to absorb as much info as possible (I'll try to understand it all later, after the first near-electrocution!)

This is pretty much what I'm thinking about:

http://www.salidaconversions.com/emis.htm

Found the link in the Highlander ICE pusher thread. Looks neat. Almost like I'd build mine!

must try to sleep now and dream of an ideal plan for all of this


----------



## JeffPritchard (Jun 10, 2008)

"pusher... especially this kind (since it's the reverse of what most are doing)"



ok, I'll bite, how is it the reverse of what most are doing? Do you mean a pusher is the reverse of what most are doing, or do you mean the type of pusher I described is the reverse of what other "pushers" are doing?

thanks,
jp


----------



## JeffPritchard (Jun 10, 2008)

sikbrik said:


> ...This is pretty much what I'm thinking about:
> 
> http://www.salidaconversions.com/emis.htm


EMIS...lots of bucks for very little bang. It is literally a hybrid rather than a plug in EV conversion. It just tries to assist the ICE when it is accelerating from a stop. Seems to charge the batteries with an alternator the rest of the time. No mention of plugging it in to charge it up that I saw.

I want to plug mine in and use it pretty much all the time when cruising and accelerating, to accelerate better and cheaper, and put my Hemi in snooze mode while cruising. I would expect significant mpg improvement until my stored juice runs out...and nothing but dead weight from my "conversion" once the electrons are spent. I only drive about 10 miles a day during the week, and 50 miles each way with free solar juice in the middle (my retirement land with solar but no house) on the weekend.

cheers,
jp


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

JeffPritchard said:


> ok, I'll bite, how is it the reverse of what most are doing? Do you mean a pusher is the reverse of what most are doing, or do you mean the type of pusher I described is the reverse of what other "pushers" are doing?


Most 'pushers' that I've seen are diesel or gasoline powered, pushing an EV when it runs out of juice. I'd rather have an EV system 'pushing' my ICE vehicle (much like you but perhaps in a different way.) Your idea is very much like the 5th wheel pusher on the 99mpg Insight. I guess mine could be, too, except instead of being hooked to a wheel, I'd hook it right to the drivetrain.

Since I won't have the luxury of dropping cylinders, I think I'd get similar economy boosts from either setup.

Assisting me in getting 3500 lbs rolling from a dead stop will increase city MPG. Highway mpg...well, I don't know that I'd have enough hp in a small motor to keep my very non-aerodynamic brick moving at highway speeds without the engine.


----------



## JeffPritchard (Jun 10, 2008)

sikbrik said:


> Most 'pushers' that I've seen are diesel or gasoline powered, pushing an EV when it runs out of juice.


OH! Hadn't heard of that before.

thanks,
jp


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Hey guys,

Reviving a very old thread, 2 kids later with the second almost out of diapers, I'm back to try again with another Volvo. Anyone done anything with this yet that I can follow? I have to read everything AGAIN just to wrap my head around it. My plan is still basically the same:

- cut weight wherever possible
- remove link between ICE and rear drivetrain to hook the motor directly to the rear diff
- achieve 20% or better fuel economy increase around town

I'm okay with upping my budget from the original estimate since it seems as though batteries could easily eat up more than half of that. I'm planning on removing half of the 2 part fuel tank to make more room for batteries, etc.

I guess I need to just spec out a few actual parts wish lists and just get moving on it and I know I need to learn much more about batteries (I want low maintenance...plug in at night and possibly at work sometimes and replace only every few years) but I would love to hear input on motor size/hp spec that might be recommended by you folks for my intended goal as well as how this might affect daily handling performance, especially in slippery conditions where I might need a little more control than many budget controllers would be able to provide.

Thanks for looking. I'm off to search and learn (hopefully!)


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Curb weight is around 3700 lbs (dry). With occupants and 1/2 tank of fuel, it could weigh anywhere from 4000 to 4400, I suppose. The goal would be to remove at least 100 lbs of weight to offset motor and battery weight gain. Let's say I can keep it to 4500 lbs with fuel, passengers, and electric assist when completed, at least as a goal.

Final drive ratio is 4:1. Plan would be to drive directly into the rear diff. This car will need to be capable of speeds up to 80mph on rare occasions but will generally stay around 40
. I wonder if I'll need a sort of electric clutch to disengage the motor at highway speeds?

Going to look around for some hp requirement calculations. Looked a little at the ME1012 motor, 10kw @ 72v. I think I want to go DC, probably 96v or less. Hoping to spend $1000 or less on batteries. I commute only about 25 miles per day. Current mpg city is somewhere around 18 and highway is 26 with a mix avg of 20. I want to get that average to 25 or more to make this worthwhile and I'm sure that's doable, even if highway stays at 26.

Looking forward to some feedback. Thanks!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That motor sounds vastly undersized...for a tiny car.

I don't see any way you can make this a feasible project. I'd love to do the same with my minivan, but it would take 5-800 lbs of stuff and cost $8-12,000 to make it useful.


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Ziggy, are you saying as an 'assist' motor to the ICE (which would always run), that this motor is VASTLY undersized to give the improvement I'm looking for? 2 of these motors in series possibly is a big difference? I'm not looking at ever running purely on electric.

Wow - okay, lots for me to learn and back to the drawing board. Thanks for the feedback.  I was using this build as a basis for at least the same general idea:

http://howtobuildahybrid.com/howtobuildahybrid_003.htm


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

I must be thinking completely incorrectly but seeing the 10kw rating tells me the ME1012 converts somewhere to around 13hp. At a 4:1 gear reduction ratio, can't I call that somewhere around 50 effective hp added? And at peak of 24kw, over 120hp? That seems like a significant boost. What am I missing?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You should first consider your performance needs. How much power does the vehicle use to accelerate, or cruise? A little motor would likely be able to assist the ICE after reaching cruising speed, but would contribute little to the acceleration. At cruising speed the electric motor would need to be running at a higher voltage to keep up.

My bug takes about 10kW to maintain 45 mph, a larger vehicle would require 1.5-2x that. Bump that up to highway entry speeds and you'll need another 1.5-2x. Real highway speeds repeat.

Gear ratios can increase torque, not HP. You don't get something for nothing. The biggest problem with a hybrid is hauling two drive systems around all the time. Production hybrids are more efficient than most ICE because the EV part does most of the work, most of the time, and the ICE can be turned off when not needed. To do that, they have to be sized appropriately, and with your DIY hybrid the ICE will be on all the time anyway.


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay, great detailed info. Thanks, zig! Saved me lots of time.

Off to price a Prius V...


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

2000$ will be VERY difficult, it can be built but won't be very usable in the budget restricted configuration....

*200$* for a DC motor from a junked forklift, bigger the better, however a 9" would be sufficient, read the thread on how to choose/pick a forklift motor for EV use.

*600$* for the 144V Cougar DIY controller from Paul & Sabrina, it will take some DIY soldering work, but its a 500 capable controller, upgradable to 1000A.

*1200$* left for batteries...

Odyssey PC625 16AH, 85$ each, 12V ea. x 12units = 144V for the controller and 12 x 85$ = $1,020 for your budget.

144V & 16A = 2.3kwh, 2.3kw for 1 hour of use or 138kw (185ehp) for 1 min, however more like 30 seconds since you shouldn't discharge AGMs down to more than 50% DoD.... 185ehp >> 25% motor/controller losses >> 138hp & ~100 ftlbs for 30seconds of acceleration assistance

Batteries weigh ~160lbs
Controller weighs ~ 30lbs
Motor weighs ~150lbs
Total extra weight = 340lbs

http://autoplicity.com/products/264...=GSNOFITMENT&gclid=CJrDx4zwlLACFeUBQAodWycR1g


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Been reading a bit again lately. Do you guys think an 8" pump motor is up to this task, used in conjunction with the ICE, hooked to the rear diff flange? Or do I really need to go with a heavier 10" traction motor to be effective?


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Just read through your thread. Very interesting sikbrik!

NOTE TO READERS:
The goal of this conversion is to improve low speed economy. If we assume only 30% of the ICE's output is required at these speeds, that's ~50hp and up to 200lb.ft. The goal is to subsidise ~30-40% of THIS figure to improve economy, most importantly during acceleration from stops or slow speeds, where the MAJORITY of the time it will be gentle 'average' acceleration (no comment from the racers about what 'average' acceleration is meant to be please, he's doing the school run!).

Therefore this project is wholely feasible, though the budget is a little low.

My 2c!

Sikbrik

I feel your best option is a simple AC setup that will allow regen to recharge your small battery pack, and maybe try swop out the diff gears with higher ratio (mechanical advantage). I'd propose using an industrial VFD and ~20hp AC motor. I have seen various incarcerations but I would suggest a longer slender pump type motor to fit nicely in the transmission tunnel. The biggest potential problem I see is how you hack the VFD to enable it to Regen.

Also, though somewhat pricey I would recomment a LiFePo battery pack, it need only be small, and won't have long durations of high output, and will save space and weight. I think of either A123 pouch cells, or CALB 10C rated 'bricks'. Either should fit nicely in the fuel tank cavity, ironically becoming your alternative fuel 'tank' 

But plenty research to do.

Look at CTS_casemod's thread on using an industrial VFD, and there are others, and ask these sorts of forum members about how best to hack the VFD and also the possibility of regen. It may be that given your low daily mileage you don't need regen, and if the batteries are depleted you just switch to ICE only!

PS high speeds won't be a problem at that diff ration, the Volvos have large enough tyre radii that the motor, AC or DC, shouldn't exceed a safe 5000rpm limit, just look into limiting your vehicle's speed. Maybe the speed governer can be reset to a new value?


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, Tylerwatts! Great summary and great info! I hope I hit the right button to give you "thanks" or rep or whatever this board uses. This is just the kind of info that keeps me looking at and refining my options (and steadily increasing my budget, just to see what can be done to the mom-wagon.)



tylerwatts said:


> Just read through your thread. Very interesting sikbrik!
> 
> NOTE TO READERS:
> The goal of this conversion is to improve low speed economy. If we assume only 30% of the ICE's output is required at these speeds, that's ~50hp and up to 200lb.ft. The goal is to subsidise ~30-40% of THIS figure to improve economy, most importantly during acceleration from stops or slow speeds, where the MAJORITY of the time it will be gentle 'average' acceleration (no comment from the racers about what 'average' acceleration is meant to be please, he's doing the school run!).
> ...


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

If you place an electric motor helping on acelleration you will have poorer mileage (although compensated by the lack of work).
That is why an hybrid has a small engine. Its a weak engine, working at most the time at near its rated output (output is linear to revs, not exactly peak power - if peak power = 100HP @ 4500RPM we can assume peak power at 2000RPM to be 40HP. This is more complex, but is just to show the idea) and by itself it can not do much acceleration. Thats where the electric motor comes in, to both help when you need that little bit acceleration and to recover some of the otherwise wasted energy during braking.
Al other times, when you are cruising and the engine is under a lower load and the generator is charing the batteries, using this excess power available, so that the ICE is working on its peak efficiency at all times. If the batteries are fully charged some can go all electric (The new prius does over 100Km in full electric mode) untill recharging is needed.
Also there are two types of hybrid, but for the purpose here the main point is to keep the ICE at its peak efficiency
A Volvo has a decent sized engine to make up room for acceleration, so the way you can have a good economy is to switch of the engine at all during low loads and low speeds and while working use the excess to charge the batteries in a similar way to regen braking.
There is a trade off between electric power and using an ICE in a bigger engine, because althought you might be saving some gas the efficiency will be worse. Also incomplete combustion may result with deposits on the motor and the ICE will take longer to warm up, resulting in a rich mixture (less air; more fuel).
Last care must be taken with your battery pack. Hybrids mostly use NiMH batteries for a reason. Most lithum batteries are not rated for a very high discharge. Considering a small 3KW pack, if your electric motor is 30KW that would be a 10C discharge assuming 100% efficiency. Althought some manufacturers state 10C discharge the battery will not have a good life (Done this test myself with headways). A123 is a good choice, but there are issues with these cells and using them on such an aplication may increase the failure rate. We dont know until when they will be available either, so getting a replacement in future may no be possible at all.
It can be done but do your homework before starting to make sure you get it right, you might find it more economical do do, say, an LPG conversion. That would save you quite some money (half price on motorway and 1/3 less in city). My Polo was LPG before conversion, the reason to go all electric was because I mostly do short trips and its cheaper for me to rent a car (zip car or something) for the rare ocasion I need to do a long trip.
Although economical most fuel on my short trips was used to get the motor up to operating temperature, so the mileage was poor. This happens with all petrol cars and may be the tradeoff between fully electric and hybrid.


----------



## sikbrik (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, CTS! Great info. Some of this I had gleaned over the past few months but awesome info on making it "sort of" work if I was determined.

We got a Prius C and stopped driving the volvo as much, so I only commute in it 20 miles per day and rarely on long trips.

I would love a CNG conversion - i believe they're illegal in most states in the USA on emission controlled vehicles (would have to be pre-1974, I think.) I have a local fueling station for factory equipped trucks/vans and the rare Honda Civic GX. This typre of mechanical conversion would be more in my realm of experience/capability anyway. I'll have to research legality.

I think I've abandoned electricity in the wagon even more as of this week as I found out our third child might be on the way. Sooo...two toddlers and a baby necessitate me keeping the 3rd seat area available for passengers.


----------



## cts_casemod (Aug 23, 2012)

sikbrik said:


> Thanks, CTS! Great info. Some of this I had gleaned over the past few months but awesome info on making it "sort of" work if I was determined.
> 
> We got a Prius C and stopped driving the volvo as much, so I only commute in it 20 miles per day and rarely on long trips.
> 
> ...


Congratulations, I am sure you'll be busy now !
There are some conversions involving an upgrade to the prius pack to force it to run into electric mode, you might want to check some of them!


----------

