# You Probably Won't Need Public Chargers



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Unless it is convenient (like at your workplace), public charging will always be minimal. 

We are an impatient society. Everything needs to be a "now" thing, or we avoid it. 

The last time I did an 85% charge, it took 10 hours using my on-board charger.
(the same charger those supposed "public charging stations" use).

A real DC-fast charge station would be faster, but still 3 hours at minimum.

We will mostly charge at home during sleep.

Miz


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

News Bot said:


> Due to their range limitations and the fact that most people travel more than 100km in a day, there is little need for public charging infrastructure, article argues.
> 
> More...


 is it me or does this not make any sense?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Public Chargers Are Real Nice*



mizlplix said:


> Unless it is convenient (like at your workplace), public charging will always be minimal.
> 
> We are an impatient society. Everything needs to be a "now" thing, or we avoid it.
> 
> ...


G'mornin' Miz,

Probably right, but I like the idea. For promotion 

Using an EV almost daily now, I almost exclusively charge in my garage overnight. I could charge from a 110 outlet while in the lab at the U....hell, I could even pull it inside. But why bother? The typical round trip for me is only about half my range anyway. 

There are 3 public L2 charge stations on campus and 3 more downtown. These offer free electrons, but cost like $1/hr for the parking meter  Unless I would have to park in that lot for other reasons, I won't be using those. But those charge stations made for good PR for the U admin and city mayor  And the bulk of the cost was covered by grant 

The best thing that can be done now is to eliminate any charge for these public charge stations. The typical EV user might actually charge for a couple of hours. At most, that could be $.40 of electricity, but probably less than $.20. Making the EV owner pay $1, or $.50/hr will only discourage the station use. Free will encourage use. Invite the EV owner into the town or into the store. The charge station owner/operator will profit much more from that business than from charging fees.

The public charge stations encourage EV use. Although I seldom (like never) use them in BG, when I had to go to Lima this week, the availability to use a L2 public station while I was there was the swing vote to convince me to drive my EV. The one-way distance to Lima was within my range, but round trip was way over. Although 110V charging was available at my primary destination, there wasn't enough time for that slow charge. But the L2 free charge station was less than a mile away at the mall. So I took advantage. While there I shopped. And almost bought something  

Depending on the size of the on-board charger in your EV, these Level 2 (L2) charge stations can give you like 10 to 20 miles per hour while you're plugged in. They're not going to facilitate easy cross country BEV driving. But they will serve a valuable purpose for Ev users. To charge while having dinner....why not? It could swing my choice of restaurant. On another forum a member signature says "I don't shop where I can't charge". 

Public chargers are a win/win. Good for the town or city. Good for the merchant. Good for the EV owner. Good for the utility (electric provider). Good for the industry (equipment makers and installers). Good for the planet (encouraging transportation with less or no emissions). 

I agree. Most charging will be done at home at night. But I like the idea of those charge stations spread around and would like to see more of them. And more EVs 

Cheers,

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> is it me or does this not make any sense?


Appears to be a misquote.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Unless it is convenient (like at your workplace), public charging will always be minimal.
> 
> We are an impatient society. Everything needs to be a "now" thing, or we avoid it.
> 
> ...


I don't see why you'd need 3 hours minimum. Maybe for a full charge, but 80-85% could be done in 15 minutes. Heck jack did this on an episode of evtv not too long ago. Interestingly the cells didn't heat up much until finished it off with a CV charge.

If nissan is doing it with air cooled lithium manganese cells LiFePO4 can certainly do it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> I don't see why you'd need 3 hours minimum.


Two reasons:

1-That is what my PFC2500 takes.

2-I like to charge and discharge slowly to hopefully extend the cell life.



The Ford Focus EV is supposed to do 80% in 2 hours. That is nice....

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Public Chargers Are Real Nice*



major said:


> On another forum a member signature says "I don't shop where I can't charge".


Maybe it's cause I'm not in CA, but I'd really like to know where he shops...I would starve.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 1-That is what my PFC2500 takes.
> 
> ...



I was more talking about DC-DC fast charging. Nissan and Tesla are doing it already with an air cooler lithium manganese cell and lithium cobalt; both of which are much less stable than LiFePO4. 

It may or may not reduce the life of the cell. We simply don't know. It certainly doesn't seem to heat them nearly as much as people seem to think; which would indicate it's not as hard on the cells as people think. You also wouldn't need to do it all that often. Only when you need to travel more than your EV's range; which for most would be a few times a year. A DC fast charging network and a standard would definitely make EV's more palatable to the masses who suffer from range anxiety and seem to think they couldn't possibly live with an EV's range limitations.

A fast charging Network along the interstate wouldn't be terribly expensive either.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am going to boycott public chargers until they use a normal dryer or 110 plug. I will not conform to the j plug, as I feel that I would be conforming to what the government wants. I would think that all of the ev community should feel the same way and want the charging stations to remain as they have been for decades in our garages at home. If they can force us to conform to the j plug, than they can also make us conform to a k plug, an L plug, m, n, etc. No thanks.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

*Re: Public Chargers Are Real Nice*



major said:


> ...Although I seldom (like never) use them in BG, when I had to go to Lima this week, the availability to use a L2 public station while I was there was the swing vote to convince me to drive my EV. The one-way distance to Lima was within my range, but round trip was way over...
> major


 Similar for me. Most of the time I charge at 7 to 10A at home overnight, but occasionally I want to go further than I can go round trip on a full charge. I have charged at an RV park (NEMA14-50 outlet), and at a couple free sites. The EVSE's in town don't help me, but the one in another town 30 miles away sometimes does. Likewise one in another town about 40 miles away. Since I restrict myself to almost always driving my ev, they significantly increase the area I can reach (I go beyond the 30 mile town after charging there, then return home, about 95 mile round trip). The trips usually require 1 to 2 hours charging at 27A DC.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I will not conform to the j plug, as I feel that I would be conforming to what the government wants.


The j plug is SAE J1772 standard and has nothing to do with the government 

And you think the normal dryer plug is O.K. yet it is a NEMA 14-30P standard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: Public Chargers Are Real Nice*



tomofreno said:


> Similar for me.


Exactly  And I just figured that my trip to Lima cost me $1.20 for electricity in my Think EV opposed to $17.50 for gasoline if I had used my pick up truck.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, my beef with the j plug is not with the quality, but rather the principle. I actually have my cars equipped with a 110, and a 50 amp welder plug to power my pfc 20 and pfc40. The welder plug is common in my shop, but the reason I think the dryer is good because it is WAY more common than the j plug. There is no need for anything fancier than a dryer plug, unless you are dumping a lot more power into your ev than most of us.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Major, my beef with the j plug is not with the quality, but rather the principle. I actually have my cars equipped with a 110, and a 50 amp welder plug to power my pfc 20 and pfc40. The welder plug is common in my shop, but the reason I think the dryer is good because it is WAY more common than the j plug. There is no need for anything fancier than a dryer plug, unless you are dumping a lot more power into your ev than most of us.


I fail to see what any of that has to do with the government  And you certainly have the right to use whatever plug you want to on your DIY EV. But all of those plugs you mention are made to industry standards. You get to choose the standard you want. Like Lee Hart says "The great thing about standards; there are so many to choose from" 

O.K. You got me started. Charge plug standards. I crew for electric race vehicles, cars and motorcycles. I've been to races all over this country and several outside the USofA. Each venue sets up charging power drops for the teams. It is always different than what we have on the end of the AC power cord  We travel with dozens of adapter cords and spare plugs. Invariably I spend the first hour or so upon arrival at the track changing over the power cord plug and often times have to make a run to buy a different plug. And all this is prior to the SAE J1772 standard. I have yet to see those in the pits or paddock. Probably will next race


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Major, I was getting worried about you gor a moment. Thought you were going to be all about the j plug and why it should be mandated... Anyway, you hit the nail on the head about using whatever plug you want. A charging plug does not need to be fancy, just needs to be able to support the load that we put on it. The folks that invented the j plug were looking to create a "standard"plug plug for charging, but failed to realize that we already have a standard. Everybodys house has the real standard already there. What they developed was a very uncommon plug that is useless unless you have an ev equipped with one of these. The society that came up wirh these things is who the government talks to when making laws. Yea, I may jump too far ahead, but I can see the writing on the wall... we will eventually be mandated by the government to have one of these j plugs on our ev, whether we like it or not. Sae says it's all that, so we are making it law. Sae is getting bigger everyday, and their relationship with the goverment grows too.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> I don't see why you'd need 3 hours minimum. Maybe for a full charge, but 80-85% could be done in 15 minutes.


That you CAN do it doesn't mean it's practical. If you charge a 20 kW pack 85% in 15 minutes you need to provide about 70 kW from the charger. At 230 Volt that's about 300 Ampere. If you let it take 3 hours that current drops to 25 Ampere.

That's why.



evmetro said:


> I am going to boycott public chargers until they use a normal dryer or 110 plug.


Haven't travelled to foreign countries much, have you...?

Which of all the now used "standard connectors" do you call "normal"? 

SAE J1772 is actually a pretty smart standard since the car and charger can actually communicate (in a pretty rough way, but still) to decide what level of charging they will use. Right now the fastest charging available in the standard seems to be 19 kW (240 Volt, 80 Ampere) so it's not really quick charging, but still! Improvement because right now it looks like it will become THE standard for electric cars (potentially the first power connector to actually become an international standard!).

There's a version two coming too. It's a bit bulky, but it IS backwards compatible at least so cars with the old J1772 can still use those standards and it also makes fast charging possible with up to 90 kW which would actually make it possible to charge that 20 kWh pack above in less than 15 minutes...

However, I guess that most people would be quite happy with a J1772 level 1 in the garage since if you have the time it's much safer/simpler to let the car slow charge while you're sleeping anyway.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> A charging plug does not need to be fancy, just needs to be able to support the load that we put on it.


Safe would be nice. Also weather proof. Also design life for the expected number of insertions. Also designed to allow ease of use for anyone wishing to use a public station, like the elderly who may not be able to properly seat those dryer plugs.

I don't care what DIYers use on their EVs and neither does the government. What some responsible parties do care about are the public use and sale of such equipment. And we haven't even touched on agency approval and listing such as UL, CE, NEC, etc. Or quality standards.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Wow! What passionate people....And over a plug too...LOL

In 1905, the Society of Automobile Engineers (a private effort) was born. Headquartered in a New York City office, four officers and five managing officers volunteered their time and energy to the cause of improving every vehicle that rolled on wheels. In 1916, representatives from the American Society of Aeronautic Engineers, the Society of Tractor Engineers, as well as representatives from the power boating industry made a pitch to SAE for oversight of technical standards in their industries. Today SAE has cooperative agreements with organizations in Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, Australasia, and India, to name just a few. It is truly an international effort. 

I am a member of OCPP. (Open Charge Port Protocol) A long read, but worth it...
http://www.ocppforum.net/sites/default/files/ocpp%201%205%20-%20a%20functional%20description%20v2%200_0.pdf
It is a private, European organization whose purpose is to standardize charging facilities for electric vehicles. It is based in the Netherlands.




If I were to be tasked with the design and implementation of vehicle charging stations, I (like all of us) have my own ideas.

It would be an electrical "Swiss Army Knife". Meaning it would have a small footprint, Be cheap to build, easy to repair and as basic as I could get. 

I am envisioning a modular design where units could be added or removed without any indication of it having been done. 

It would have a power cord with the "standard" J1772 plug, but would also have an assortment of sockets and voltages as to accommodate nearly everyone. An additional port and module could even include a rapid DC function.

The user interface would be basic too. A simple L.E.D. indicates the station is ready for use. Plug in the vehicle. A card swipe slot would start the charging cycle. 

There would be a Digital display of the process(voltage & current), Charge Timer and cost meter.

The last, but most important, feature would be a "panic" button to terminate the operation. 

If these "Boxes" were standardized for cheaper manufacturing, they could be placed everywhere. The cheaper, the more there would be and they are infinitely upgrade-able, they never need replacement unless damaged.

Lastly, the evil idea of payment....Yes, there must be some way to "enable" these to be (literally) placed on every street corner as to be of maximum benefit to us. I see a 1 cent per minute charging fee. ($.60/hour)

There needs to be a repair/replacement cost for the system. 

They can be placed singly, in tandem or a small service station with Mini-Mart and lounge. (OK, A StarBucks with WiFi)

Plan for the future. 

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Sae is getting bigger everyday,....


Actually it has been just the opposite recently 



evmetro said:


> .....and their relationship with the goverment grows too.


Just your opinion? Or do you have any evidence? I've been a member of SAE on and off for a few decades and have no idea what you mean by government relationship


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I guess I look at this from a different angle to most people. Since I'm using a very small battery pack (mostly for reasons of cost) I'll be relying on public charging to get around. I'm lucky to live close to a Nissan plant where they build the Leaf, so there are plenty of local incentives to install charging points.

It would be great to have a larger pack, but I think there's some merit in building cars with smaller packs for drivers who are comfortable with hopping from charge point to charge point. It means you can build cars that are lighter and considerably cheaper. This will obviously only work in and around cities, but that's where EV's really shine.

Right now most of the local charging points are under-used, though it wouldn't take much growth in EV ownership to reverse the situation. If EV ownership does take off I can't really see the charging network being expanded to cater for everyone who would like to charge in the city, especially with the current budget cuts here. Unless that is local government realises they can supplement their budgets by overcharging (excuse pun) for electricity, which looks likely.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> ..........I think there's some merit in building cars with smaller packs for drivers who are comfortable with hopping from charge point to charge point. It means you can build cars that are lighter and considerably cheaper. This will obviously only work in and around cities, but that's where EV's really shine.


Good points, Malc 

It would be a bitch if you needed a different plug for each of those charge points, wouldn't it? So it sounds like you have the j plug, right?


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

major said:


> It would be a bitch if you needed a different plug for each of those charge points, wouldn't it? So it sounds like you have the j plug, right?


Many of them have standard UK 13A/240V sockets, but the newer points are mode 3 type 2. I'm just starting to take a closer look at the different plug types as I've not given it much thought till now. It looks like I need a type 1 (J1772) to type 2 charging lead. The cable plus the J1772 connector for the car will cost around £500 in the UK, so I'll stick with the standard 3-pin plug for the time being. 3 kW from a standard socket should give me at least 10 miles per hour of charge.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

evmetro said:


> ... The folks that invented the j plug were looking to create a "standard"plug plug for charging, but failed to realize that we already have a standard. Everybodys house has the real standard already there. What they developed was a very uncommon plug that is useless unless you have an ev equipped with one of these. The society that came up wirh these things is who the government talks to when making laws. Yea, I may jump too far ahead, but I can see the writing on the wall... we will eventually be mandated by the government to have one of these j plugs on our ev, whether we like it or not. Sae says it's all that, so we are making it law. Sae is getting bigger everyday, and their relationship with the goverment grows too.


 So its not the "government" that is responsible, rather private entities that push the government to make policy the entities want. Politicians do what they are pushed to do by their more powerful constituents. But if one group doesn't like the policy another group pushed the government to create, they blame the government instead of the other group. For example, one industry group pushes for tariffs to protect their profits, another industry which uses those products and was getting them cheaper from overseas, blames the government for "meddling" and increasing their costs. So now we have gotten this lazy-brained meme that everything is the government's fault. Not that they are flawless like the rest of us. Sure, they have screwed things up sometimes, but many times they are just doing what private citizen groups or corporations pushed them to do. If J1772 does get mandated, it will be because the automotive industry and other private groups push the government to do it. So blame those groups.

I don't care for the J1772 either, but its nothing that reducing it's price to $20.00 wouldn't fix. I think standards are good because they can save a lot of trouble of the kind major describes if implemented correctly. I don't particularly like others telling me I have to do something a certain way either, but I think many things would be a nightmare without standards. What if each utility company produced power at their own chosen frequency?

You don't need a J1772 as long as you don't use an EVSE. But as they proliferate, they increase the area you can reach with an ev if you make use of them. I just use the adapter that Rush at tucsonev.com sells. Yes, still very pricey for a connector. Didn't buy one until those charging stations were installed, permitting me to go places I couldn't reach in my ev without them.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tomofreno, I think you have me cornered with the lazy attitude of blaming stupid stuff on the government. Major has forced me to wiki the SAE and learn more about them. In my defense, I would not call it PURE laziness, but rather experience. What we do know, is that the goverment cannot do anything right, which is what lead me to assume that they were most likely behind this blunder on the part of the SAE. The fact that we already have a charging infrastructure in place that puts a charging station in every home in the country and every business in the country is indisputable. The idea of building a redundant infrastructure is absurd, and the cost even crazier. 

What would make sense would be an already standardized electric box inside the recharging door of your vehicle like the one at the other end of the extension cord in your garage. These boxes allow you to put whatever kind of recepticle you like in it. I have a 50 amp welder plug in mine, and I picked it up at home depo for 30 bucks. Somebody else might have a dryer plug in their garage, so they could mount a 30 dollar plug in their standard electric box. The way the dealer EVs are being sold, the buyers are forced to use the new expensive and hard to find j plug, or use an expensive and bulky adapter. No option to simply plug into the infrastructure that already exists. At a bare minimum, every vehicle manufactured should at least have a 110 plug on it, since it is THE most common plug. If you don't have enough charge to get where you want to go, you will not need to find an obscure j plug.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> ..........At a bare minimum, every vehicle manufactured should at least have a 110 plug on it, since it is THE most common plug. If you don't have enough charge to get where you want to go, you will not need to find an obscure j plug.


I think this is the case for OEM Plug-In EVs. They come with a Level 1 charge cord in the trunk which has a J1772 plug for the car and a standard 110V 15A plug which fits the standard household wall socket in the USofA. It is the owner's option to install other EVSE.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I think you are making more out of this than it is, evmetro. It's just a plug. FWIW, around here the public EVSE's have both the J1772, and a 16a 110v outlet so you don't NEED the j plug. But you are limited to 16a without it.

There are options out there to buy the j1772 adapters for a few hundred bucks so you can use public charging, but keep the NEMA 15-50 for home charging from the welder outlet you already have. You don't need to buy a $1000 home EVSE if you don't want to.

I've personally made the decision to forego J1772 and stick with 110v charging, because it works for me. I can still public charge if I want to (and have the patience to charge at less than 16a), but realistically in the last year I have not needed to use public charging at all. I've done it for fun, and just because I can, but I've not yet depended on it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> .....this blunder on the part of the SAE. ..........I have a 50 amp welder plug in mine,......


Would you want your 74 year old grandmother or 17 year old daughter attempting to use a 50A welder plug streetside in the dark of night with the cold wind blowing standing in 35° salty slush puddle?

They could do that safely with the J1772


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If a less able person found themselves in this kind of situation, any plug that gets the car charging will do, but this is EXACTLY my reasoning for having oem vehicles equipped with a 110 plug. No need to rumage through the trunk for the adapter that somebody probably left at home... just pull in to anywhere there is civilization and tell your story to the resident or business owner, and we are charging! Would you want your loved ones to be searching for a j plug? I would bet that lots of people would offer your loved ones a 110 extension cord in an emergency.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Dladd, where are you? It sounds like some common sense has been implemented where you are. If our charging stations were equipped to offer 110, I would feel totally different about the OPTIONAL j plug. Might even add one to my own car to expand my charging options... since I joined this thread, I have begun plotting a three gang box for my car to add additional charging options. I am guessing that the j plug won't fit the standard electric box, but we all know I will hold out to the very end before "complying" with one of those.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have to say that I really enjoy this forum. Lots of sharp people to keep me on my toes. Very stimulating, and gets me thinking a little harder before typing the first thing that comes to mind. I hope to eventually convince more people to be aware that we need to keep the government as far from our ev community as possible. I believe that they will be looking for opportunities to regulate us, tax us, and tell us how we can or can't build our EVs. Major has redirected my finger pointing from the government to his own group, the SAE.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Would you want your loved ones to be searching for a j plug?


Rather that than using an unknown 110V cord which may not be GFI protected or even grounded.



evmetro said:


> I would bet that lots of people would offer your loved ones a 110 extension cord in an emergency.


The emergency could suddenly become much worse.

The SAE standard may not be perfect, but it does go a long way to make universal charging available to the most people in a safe reliable easy to use manner.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh no! I know you are a member of the SAE, but I never asked if you are part of the government! Do you have a green collar government job?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Oh no! I know you are a member of the SAE, but I never asked if you are part of the government! Do you have a green collar government job?


I am not a SAE member at this time, but as I said, I have been at times. Aren't we all part of the government in this country? It is really none of your business if I have a government job, but no I do not.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Your employment is not my business, but in our debate, it is relevant. If you had a green collar goverment job, then you would be defending your job and not the stupid j plug. While I would still not have much respect for your job, I would understand that you have to put food on the table. For whatever reason you may have for standing so firmly for the j plug, it would appear that you will not let up , so I will. You win. All the best to you, and feel free to challenge me in any thread at any time. You seem to be very knowledgeable, and I enjoy reading all of your posts. I have also learned ALOT from your posts here. I spent hundreds of hours reading these forums before digging in deep and you taught me a lot of good stuff.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Your employment is not my business, but in our debate, it is relevant. If you had a green collar goverment job, then you would be defending your job and not the stupid j plug. While I would still not have much respect for your job, I would understand that you have to put food on the table. For whatever reason you may have for standing so firmly for the j plug, it would appear that you will not let up , so I will. You win. All the best to you, and feel free to challenge me in any thread at any time. You seem to be very knowledgeable, and I enjoy reading all of your posts. I have also learned ALOT from your posts here. I spent hundreds of hours reading these forums before digging in deep and you taught me a lot of good stuff.


I didn't think much about the j plug until I used it, every day for 3 months. Now I like it, a lot. And I have used about every type of plug there is, well not quite after seeing that link from Qer. 

Try it some time, you might just like it too  If not, use what you want. But leave us j-pluggies alone


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

For my dollar, I am just glad there is a standard; what the EV world doesn't need is a bunch of manufacturer-specific variants on a theme. Use the standard or ignore it, your choice.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

njloof said:


> For my dollar, I am just glad there is a standard; what the EV world doesn't need is a bunch of manufacturer-specific variants on a theme. Use the standard or ignore it, your choice.


Indeed.

Imagine, for example, if cell phones all used their own standards instead of using micro USB for charging and 3.5 mm connectors for head phones. What a mess that would be...

...wait. It USED to be that all cell phones had their own standards and almost every single time I upgraded the phone I had to throw away the chargers and headsets and start all over again, or I had to buy third part adapters that converted what ungodly connector the phone used to a straight 3.5 mm plug, but at the price of clumsiness and another connector you could accidently disconnect by your movement. And it SUCKED!

Being wary of the government and not trust everything 100% is sane, questioning the agenda and scrutinising the decisions is commendable, but attacking a standard that will make peoples life easier, increase competition and that way decrease the price for, for example, a charger is... Well... There are better and more worthy windmills to attack.


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