# 1963-1965 Dodge Dart/ Plymouth Valiant



## homergreg (Jun 29, 2008)

I am considering getting one of these for an EV conversion. A mid 60's American car probably isn't the normal donor car, but the specs of these don't look that far from some of the vehicles converted on the web. The curb weight is around approx 2700 pounds on these, and I would look for a 3 speed column mount. The wheelbase on the Dart is 110", the Valiant 106". I can't seem to find the GVWR anywhere on these cars. My dad had a Dart convertible when I was a kid, and I thought it would be a great project to perform with my sons. (They're 8 and 6 now, so we have a lot of time to get it done) 

I know these wouldn't be the perfect cars to modify, but is there something about doing a conversion on a car like this that spells big trouble? Has anyone converted mid 60's like these, Ford Falcons or Chevy Nova II's? I would like to be able to drive 30 or 40 miles around town, not more than 40 mph.

If these are bad candidates, I could always tell them that Grandpa used to have a Beetle! 

Thanks!
Greg


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

funny... I have a '65 Rambler wagon and have had two '64 Ramblers in the past. I am in the stage of deciding what type of car to do as well, and like you I really want to do a '64 Rambler 2dr sedan/2dr hardtop/4 door sedan. The heaviest of those weighs in at 2736lbs. I am thinking that an older car like that could be perfect for several reasons. EASY to work on, Ramblers are unibody. TONS of space for batteries (unlike many newer cars), easily find one with manual four wheel drum brakes (accustomed to stopping heavy vehicles) - manual steering (again, made for heavier vehicles) and I'm also thinking that removing the old cast iron engines and related parts would be a much heavier weight lift than newer, smaller engines. Plus... you'd NEVER pull up to a light next to another one, let alone another ELECTRIC one!! 

I have a local guy who has done several electric conversions in the last 15 years look at my current rambler and he thinks a rambler (one a bit lighter than mine) would be great! I COULD do mine except that it's too original to molest! But even a '65 wagon weighs in at 3100 lbs.. would perform much like a converted S10 or Ranger... Your 12v needs would be minimal.. no computers... most don't have AC anyway... GO FOR IT!


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## homergreg (Jun 29, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> funny... I have a '65 Rambler wagon and have had two '64 Ramblers in the past. I am in the stage of deciding what type of car to do as well, and like you I really want to do a '64 Rambler 2dr sedan/2dr hardtop/4 door sedan. The heaviest of those weighs in at 2736lbs. I am thinking that an older car like that could be perfect for several reasons. EASY to work on, Ramblers are unibody. TONS of space for batteries (unlike many newer cars), easily find one with manual four wheel drum brakes (accustomed to stopping heavy vehicles) - manual steering (again, made for heavier vehicles) and I'm also thinking that removing the old cast iron engines and related parts would be a much heavier weight lift than newer, smaller engines. Plus... you'd NEVER pull up to a light next to another one, let alone another ELECTRIC one!!
> 
> I have a local guy who has done several electric conversions in the last 15 years look at my current rambler and he thinks a rambler (one a bit lighter than mine) would be great! I COULD do mine except that it's too original to molest! But even a '65 wagon weighs in at 3100 lbs.. would perform much like a converted S10 or Ranger... Your 12v needs would be minimal.. no computers... most don't have AC anyway... GO FOR IT!


Thanks! Let the search begin! I hope to be lucky enough to find a Dart or Valiant with a good body and a bad motor, but usually it's the other way around! A mid 60's Rambler would fit the bill too, mom had one of those, she bought it during the late 70's when gas was so high. It wasn't very pretty by then, but it got the job done!

You have a local guy that has done electric conversions? I'm in Greenfield, so I'm just a stones throw from you, does this guy do work for others? I'm pretty confident that I can figure out (with a lot of help!) the mechanical and electrical work, but I've never handled a welding rig before, and I doubt it's something I should take on. I would imagine I would need a welder to fabricate battery trays and motor mounts.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I should clarify that... A man I recently met here in Indy who is almost done with an EV conversion put me in touch with the man who is being his consultant on the project. That man did his first conversion 15 years ago and has since done others (and is in the process of a couple of more now). I met him over the weekend and he is sure to be a very valuable source of knowledge and experience on my project when I finally decide to get started.

He will do a complete conversion of a car you supply him or he is open to being hired as a consultant on your project. I'm not sure what things he'd be willing to fabricate for you other than the adapter and coupler (which is worth a lot!), but I'd be happy to pvt his contact info to you. You two could talk from there.


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

Great idea ! 

Im planning/wanting to convert my '68 Barracuda.
It's also an A-body or Vailiant, basically indentical.

I also think thies american cars are ''perfect'' for conversion, very, very, very much room for just about anything, you can stuff a sh*i load of battery's under the hood, and also in the back of the car, and you would probalby have planty of room for ''shopping stuff'' 

The only disadvantage would be the overal weight, it's still old heavy iron, but with a few extra battery's you can ballance that out.

And ive also been thinking of putting 2 small Honda generator's where the gas-tank sit's, and a small jerry can with fuel.. just in case....

But I think the idea is great, we gotta keep that old metal on the road, simple, anyone would respect that I think.

If gasoline prices keep rising is's not fun to drive anymore with a big 'ol American V8 engine.

( but when im going to convert the thing, im going to restore the old V8 to, and put it in a nice corner in the living room, a fine piece of American history in the living room, just to look at, and when the time comes and Im grandpa, maybe I will fire that old V8 for my small grand childeren and teach them some KICKASS history   )

Let's face it, old internal cumbustion engine's should be history.
the still, and alway will, kick-ass, there peak was in the 60's when everyone was drag racing, it was so pure... the old footage's at the strip.. damn, im born to late.. so pure and magical, that was the finest peak of American kick-ass muscle.

Since that things didn't get better, until know, where we, will be the home-made-trial-and-error-hobby'ist-pioneers-of-the-future-cars, think of it were in the 40's and still stuggeling to find out how to get real performance.

We will contribute if we just keep on trying, and I think we are all going to be at the drag-race strip of the future.

sorry, when im typing I just can't stop 

Anyway, great idea !

Im still collecting some information, and I think when summer end's I know engough to start my own little winter project


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## mopargarage (Jul 2, 2008)

The Flying Dutchman said:


> Great idea !
> 
> Im planning/wanting to convert my '68 Barracuda.
> It's also an A-body or Vailiant, basically indentical.
> ...


I am in the process of converting my 71 Plymouth Duster. I think the old Mopar A-bodies are good candidates. No power steering, manual drum brakes, and not as heavy as you might think.


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

Dude, A Duster... 

That's practically the same as my cuda.

Do you have some pics, or more info ? I really could learn from your experience, it would really be a BIG help 

Well.. 'cause im a Mopar man too.. 

A-body's RULE !


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## mopargarage (Jul 2, 2008)

The Flying Dutchman said:


> Dude, A Duster...
> 
> That's practically the same as my cuda.
> 
> ...


Here is a pic of my Duster. 

There is also a converted 69 Valiant on Evalbum.com that should interest you. http://evalbum.com/1399

Also, I started a blog about my experiences with my project. So far my entries have been more about the "why", but I am now getting into more of the "how". There may be some good info in it for you. If not now, then soon. http://electricmopar.blogspot.com/


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

WOW, very nice car 

Very Very Very Very much thank you for the link's of your project and the '69 Vailiant.

It's really gonna be a big help to make things clear for me.

Amazing.

Im defenlatly ( damn, I forgot how to spell that word  ) going to follow your project.

Wow, very cool.

Good luck with the car, make it an even better kickin' ass MOPAR ! 

edit :

Haha, after reading your site i came across this : ''It will retain it looks and connection to the past, but will also exhibit something of future technology. I expect that the gawks and stories will turn into open jaws when I pop the hood. Hopefully it will inspire others, and make them want "un-petroleum" power as well.''

exactly what im think all the time. 

I also think using an classic american (especially in Europe/Holland) would draw attention, it already does  but meaning when it is electric...
I also think you can easaly make profit out of it, go to a bank, and Ill bet your ass they want there name on it, something like ''name bank, powering the (electric) future'' and all that. Maybe even small businesses want there name on it to, it's cheap commercial for them cause everyone would probably look at it, not to menshion it's just special and cool.

And I would really not care just to put a few business names on my care for a year or two and make a good profit out of it


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## DartConvertible (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm looking for info to convert my '68 Dart Convertible to EV. The trans and engine (318) together weigh 800 lbs, so the car on it's own, no gas, radiator etc would be about 2000lbs. I figured that there is a lot of space for batteries under the hood and where the tank is. I'd also like to do a neat installation, using the existing automatic console shift to control it. Any help is greatly appreciated. 

the other car I had thought of was a VW Type III, the front trunk and rear space would give battery space that would be balanced front to rear.

Thanks

Peter


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Hi guys -- great idea converting classic American cars! I'm in the beginning stages of having my 1965 Mustang convertible converted. I thought I'd share some of my experience so far.

Like you, I love the idea of keeping these old classics on the road. I found a '65 convertible on Craiglist that someone had started converting to be a race car (25 years ago). He had already beefed up the suspension and transmission, installed disk brakes, and replaced several body panels with fiberglass -- all great mods for an EV.

I was going to do the conversion myself but I'm in the Army Reserves and got deployed to the Middle East, so now I've found a guy (Joe Strubhar of Gremco, Inc in Oregon -- great guy) to do the conversion for me while I'm here.

Here's some of the 'challenges' I've run into so far.

Weight: The Mustang starts off at about 2500lbs. Although light by American standards, this is still on the heavy side for an EV donor car. Workable, but I'm starting off already limiting some of my options. I've saved some weight removing the engine, etc. but I need to keep the trans (so will you probably -- these cars are too heavy for most direct drive systems). I also need to add a fairly big motor (150-250lbs) to move the car effectively so I don't lose as much weight as thought I would.

Batteries: This is really an extension of the weight problem. If all you're looking for is 15-20 mile range, then you can skip this -- you won't have a problem with batteries. I want a range of at least 50 miles, which is why I've run into all sorts of challenges. For range, you need batteries with lots of amps. Amp hours x volts = watt hours (Wh), which is the energy of your battery pack. Energy = range. To get my 50 mile range, I need about 18,000 Wh. The problem is amps are what makes batteries heavy. The more amps, the heavier each battery. So to get 18K Wh, I need about 1500lbs of batteries! Although I could probably fit them in (like you said, these old unibody cars have lots of room), there's no way the car could handle that much weight! Convertible frames are even more fragile, so this option was clearly not going to work. My remaining options are, either accept less range, or go with Lithium batteries (which weigh about a third of the traditional lead-acid). The problem with lithium is cost -- they cost about 5-6 times as much.

So make sure you understand the implications of choosing a classic American car as your donor -- you are going to either have to limit your range, or 'unlimit' your budget.

Now, lithium is really coming down in price, and there are many other battery technologies in the pipeline that promise more amps and less weight. So in a few years you will probably (hopefully) have more options. If you think this project will take that long anyway, then you might not have anything to worry about when it comes to weight and batteries.

In the end, I'm not sorry I chose to convert a Mustang. To me, it's worth it -- but I have to admit, I didn't fully appreciate how much I was limiting myself when I dove in and bought that Mustang.

But whatever car you chose as your donor, it has to be something you'll be proud to drive. I think most EV'ers are proud just to be driving an EV and don't really worry about how it looks. Some of us want something more, but everything has its tradeoffs. My Mustang may look good, but it'll never be as efficient an EV as a Metro, or as cheap a conversion.


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## mopargarage (Jul 2, 2008)

DartConvertible said:


> I'm looking for info to convert my '68 Dart Convertible to EV. The trans and engine (318) together weigh 800 lbs, so the car on it's own, no gas, radiator etc would be about 2000lbs. I figured that there is a lot of space for batteries under the hood and where the tank is. I'd also like to do a neat installation, using the existing automatic console shift to control it. Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> the other car I had thought of was a VW Type III, the front trunk and rear space would give battery space that would be balanced front to rear.
> 
> ...


I think the Dart is a great candidate. I am well on my way to converting my 71 Duster. A 68 Dart is a very similar A-body Mopar. For an idea of what's involved, you might visit my blog and check out what I have done so far. Some of what I am doing is directly applicable to your Dart. Let me know if I can answer any questions.

My final weight will be about 4000 pounds. Yours would be quite a bit less - especially if you don't have an 8 3/4 rear end. The performance of many 4000 pound EVs (S-10 trucks and others) is documented on EValbum.com.

~Bruce


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## DartConvertible (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi, thanks for the details about the Mustang conversion, and for the A body converstion. I'll look at your blog when I get a chance. I keep hoping that the battery prices will come down and the technology will improve so that the conversions will become easier and more viable. I had been trying to find an EV/pedal hybrid vehicle (the Swiss Twike is one) which would work for my situation, commuting and being rural. Something possessed me and I bought the Dart instead! I'm really conflicted driving the big V8. I have a Honda Fit that is the most frequent driver. I think if we can make the conversions work, we can give these great old cars another whole usable life.

One basic question: can you set the car up to run on cheap batteries, and simply replace the batteries as the technology improves, to increase speed and range (if cost isn't factored in)

Thanks!

Peter


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## mopargarage (Jul 2, 2008)

DartConvertible said:


> One basic question: can you set the car up to run on cheap batteries, and simply replace the batteries as the technology improves, to increase speed and range (if cost isn't factored in)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Peter


Yes. That is sort of my plan, except that I didn't really use cheap batteries this time. I plan to get a usable car on the road and then work on tweaking the system adjustments, further weight reduction, aerodynamics and rolling resistance to get as much out of the car as possible. 

My hope/plan is that 3 or 4 years from now when my T-125 Trojans wear out, I can replace them with affordable newer technology, increasing storage capacity and reducing total powerpack weight, thus further increasing my range and top speed. 

~Bruce


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## The Flying Dutchman (Aug 15, 2008)

In the mean while I readed and learned alot about EV-conversion's.

I really agree with sailfish, it's great to do, but damn... al that weight...

Im sure a Honda Civic ( or something like that modern smuck ) will handle the ''extra'' over-weight far better than an old classic.
There handling isn't great, and with 1000pounds extra it would be almost 'undoable' I think.

And I still wanna drive good, with just good power, and throwing that ol rig around and having a great time using it 

But the extra weight probably makes that impossible to do.

I think my best guess is just to sit down awhile when better/lighter/cheaper technology comes around. 

Difficult choice it is 

Alot of pro's and con's when converting a (heavy) classic.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I dunno.. keep in mind a lot of these classics aren't really that heavy.. there is a lot of stuff on newer cars that old cars just don't have. And as far as the extra weight capacity.. many were built to be able to have tow hitches and haul campers, trailers, etc.. and most were available with front bench seats.

The 63-66 Ramblers for instance were often photographed and advertised with six grown men in them side by side.. Hell, I can stand on the fenders of my 65 Classic without fear of damaging them (I don't! but I can).

A '64 Classic two door sedan with the 196 six weighs 2736lbs.. a 64 American two door sedan with the six weighs only 2504lbs, and remember that all the components you're removing are much bigger and heavier than those of a modern car.. cast iron inline six.. heavier 20gal gas tank, heavier exhaust, bigger and heavier radiator.. While I certainly have never done it, I imagine the ICE components weight reduction is much more significant than with a modern light four banger...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I love the old valiants.....that conversion is one of my all time favorites. Didn't even repaint it. Love it! Old, simple and reliable, but also shows that a good old car doesn't have to be thrown away.

I do agree that its better to go with a lighter donor when possible, but an EV conversion is something that you should be happy with and if you like a bigger car than I think you should try and make what you really want. All it takes is a bigger motor and more batteries. If you can afford it than go for it. I like the idea that an EV doesn't have to be a teardrop feather weight, anything is fair game for conversion even a land boat if thats what you like. Nothing wrong with high efficiency, but nothing wrong with a classic either.

Who said EVs can't be fun or cool?


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## DartConvertible (Sep 18, 2008)

mopargarage, what a great blog! the shots of the subframe in the engine compartment are a big help. I figure that the car without drivetrain weighs like 2100 pounds. I don't know if it is necessary to replace the Torqueflite with a stick, or if the controller can be used to control direction too. It also has power steering, so I guess I'd be replacing the steering box with a manual one.

Peter


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## mopargarage (Jul 2, 2008)

DartConvertible said:


> mopargarage, what a great blog! the shots of the subframe in the engine compartment are a big help. I figure that the car without drivetrain weighs like 2100 pounds. I don't know if it is necessary to replace the Torqueflite with a stick, or if the controller can be used to control direction too. It also has power steering, so I guess I'd be replacing the steering box with a manual one.
> 
> Peter


Thanks Peter,
Yes, you should definitely eliminate the automatic transmission, as by their very design they waste energy by slipping. You can go with a manual trans or use direct drive with a reversing motor controller. If you do go with a manual trans (which I think is the best option), I would recommend that you use a 3-speed instead of a 4-speed. You can usually find a 3-speed very cheaply.

You can install a pulley on the electric motor to run your power steering pump. Again, best not to because of the energy it uses, However, changing to a manual steering box in your Dart will necessitate either changing your steering column or purchasing an extension for the end of it.

Check my blog again later for updates. I've made good headway on the front battery racks. I hope to finally put the finishing touches on them tomorrow. My trials and errors with those could save you a lot of time, energy and headaches 
Bruce


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