# The Turnigy Journey!



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have separated a 5S pack to inspect tabs for all possibilities. My battery guy wants to design the BMS system keeping the packs in 5S. As long as we upgrade the 12 gauge wires to a larger grade. We are sticking with the smallest but safest size. He recommends keeping the wires warm for best results. He has a system for wire size/amps/heat/time. Way above the basic system for amps to size.

I could reweld the pouches into parallel packs of 5P, but he said it is not needed with his BMS system. He will get his packs anyday and his testing will begin. They are rated at 45c to 90c.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The goal is the replace all the wires on the 5S packs and parallel into 25AH or 50AH rows. I am not sure of the final design yet until his testing and final results are completed. The battery design and pack will depend on his findings. Our goal is to have a 5000amps to support both controllers.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Pics?

Jack Rickard had a case where the LiPo pouch was electrically active -- are you going to electrically insulate the boxes?


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The goal is the replace all the wires on the 5S packs and parallel into 25AH or 50AH rows. I am not sure of the final design yet until his testing and final results are completed. The battery design and pack will depend on his findings. Our goal is to have a 5000amps to support both controllers.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Pics?
> 
> Jack Rickard had a case where the LiPo pouch was electrically active -- are you going to electrically insulate the boxes?


Jack Rickard has never used LiPo. He was talking about someone else who used Kokam packs.

Turnigy cells are shrink wrapped and not separate and exposed, so this shouldn't be an issue.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The issue with one person I know of that used LiPo was that the ends where they crimp them together, are cut foil. The edges could electrically conduct and actually shorted out cells because they touched the cases.

The packs are shrinkwrapped, but he's taking them out of the shrinkwrap I assume..... so the cell edges could be exposed. Its not an issue for most people because they keep them in the packs, which are wrapped in plastic. If he intends on using them in a box, or putting them edge to edge, he's going to need to insulate.

look here:


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

So the entire pack is plastic shrink wrapped or is it some sort of metal vacuum pack?

Seems to be the same cells, pictured here and it was assumed that the pack was electrically insulated and as far as I know the only change was to punch a hole in the terminal to secure the cell.
http://www.metricmind.com/audi/images/_0227_stack.jpg


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

read my entire post.



> the ends where they crimp them together, are cut foil. The edges could electrically conduct and actually shorted out cells because they touched the cases.


The case that metricmind built were metal. The crimped edges shorted to the metal case. Stacking them is fine, they're insulated. But put them next together where the crimped edges touch something else that is metal or has an electrical potential, and you create a short.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am still waiting for my battery tech to receive his packs of Turnigy. Once he has tested cell tab size, wire, etc....we will know if we can keep the wires and packs intact. What ever the final verdict will be, the packs will be wrapped. We might have to add additonal packs in parallel to use the smaller wires, many unknowns at this point. I dissected one pack just to see their engineering skills in China, my opinion all welds were done nicely!  But, who am I?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

by welds, you mean solder.....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

My new toy for charging and balancing the 10s packs.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The tabs are all welded together, the wires are soldered to the tabs.



frodus said:


> by welds, you mean solder.....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I guess it was more of a question..... sorry shoulda put the ??

I wasn't sure if they interconnected via solder or with welds. Good info to know. Thanks Ronald.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Gotcha! Each tab had two small square welds on them, I thing the positive tab even had an additional tab weld on (because it is aluminum) so the soldering of wires would stick properly.

This is an interesting project, I know I am going out on the limb with these smaller wires. I spoke with my battery designer for about 45 minutes today in regards to wires sizes and tab sizes, we both do not want to rewire all these packs. Hopefully after his testing we can add additonal packs to "lesson" the strain on the smaller wires. I don't mind going up to 50AH or more, these pouch cells are very light. All the packs I received to date balanced correctly and had the proper voltage.

The BMS system will be interesting, it will be an Elithion with a specific design for this style pack.



frodus said:


> I guess it was more of a question..... sorry shoulda put the ??
> 
> I wasn't sure if they interconnected via solder or with welds. Good info to know. Thanks Ronald.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You are right, he never used LiPo because in his words "It arrived on fire!" (or something like that). The cells had shorted to the metal battery box in shipment.

Lithiummaniac thanks for the pics.


MN Driver said:


> Jack Rickard has never used LiPo. He was talking about someone else who used Kokam packs.
> 
> Turnigy cells are shrink wrapped and not separate and exposed, so this shouldn't be an issue.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We are going to build this pack the safest way we can, with the most available amps. I would love to see a company build these pre-made smaller 20v to 30v packs with larger wires, nothing beats these Lipo packs in power! I am not sure if I recommend Lipo's for everyday driving, but for racing they are bad-azz! 

These new nano-tech cells are much much more powerful than previous Lipo's, just read all the forums from RC users, they all say nothing matches this new nano-tech technology in power bursts.



DavidDymaxion said:


> You are right, he never used LiPo because in his words "It arrived on fire!" (or something like that). The cells had shorted to the metal battery box in shipment.
> 
> Lithiummaniac thanks for the pics.


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## LiFe (May 24, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


>


R/C quality LiPo is fine for the ebike crowd. It's cheap, lightweight, plus they can wear Nomex panties when it all goes wrong. Which it always eventually does. The ebikers can simply bail off. Their only loss being a few hundred $ and some credibility. 

Now you, Mr. Flannel checkered jammies sitting at your peecee, need to define a method to jettison that load of lighterfluid. Your "battery designer" isn't going to rescue your butt when a spontaneous failure occurs. Either through vibration, separator failure, etc.

Do not assume you can follow in their tracks without assuming considerable liability. You're playing in a whole new arena now.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The BMS system will be interesting, it will be an Elithion with a specific design for this style pack.


 
Won't work. The cell boards have to be installed on each cell. Please call me and discuss this issue. Or have your designer call me. There are some flaws to this aproach.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

It works fine. 



frodus said:


> Won't work. The cell boards have to be installed on each cell. Please call me and discuss this issue. Or have your designer call me. There are some flaws to this aproach.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

They're not using them in the same application as you are.

So lithiumstart is building the packs?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We appreciate your concern for our safety, but this type of battery configuration has been completed already and works just fine. Our pack differs from ebikers packs. Please keep your comments on my checkered jammies and my battery designer off the thread.

If you would complete some DD, you would see the amazing results these Turnigy packs are producing. 

Lipo has more bang for the buck!



LiFe said:


> R/C quality LiPo is fine for the ebike crowd. It's cheap, lightweight, plus they can wear Nomex panties when it all goes wrong. Which it always eventually does. The ebikers can simply bail off. Their only loss being a few hundred $ and some credibility.
> 
> Now you, Mr. Flannel checkered jammies sitting at your peecee, need to define a method to jettison that load of lighterfluid. Your "battery designer" isn't going to rescue your butt when a spontaneous failure occurs. Either through vibration, separator failure, etc.
> 
> Do not assume you can follow in their tracks without assuming considerable liability. You're playing in a whole new arena now.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I just reread you post, this statement is false. I can post hundreds of happy operators of Turnigy packs, the only thread I can find with one problem was a pouch with a hole (installation error) or over charging. Is your goal to bash Turnigy? 



LiFe said:


> Which it always eventually does.quote]


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

please post the builds of users that used them in 4-wheel highway capable vehicles or drag vehicles.

Thanks


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have already posted I do not recommend this type of battery pack for "highway capable vehicles", I clearly stated it can only be used for short bursts of power typical for 1/4 drag racing. Here is one gentlemen that is using "pre-built" packs in SERIES from Enerland. 

http://www.evalbum.com/2453



frodus said:


> please post the builds of users that used them in 4-wheel highway capable vehicles or drag vehicles.
> 
> Thanks


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have spoken with my battery builder in regards to your commnets, because I respect your knowledge. His response is: "you are not thinking out of the box". He explained to me it can and has already been done. 



frodus said:


> Won't work. The cell boards have to be installed on each cell. Please call me and discuss this issue. Or have your designer call me. There are some flaws to this aproach.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I know this comment will be belittled, but I will post it anyways. Besides of the full size pack built for EV racing that I know works just fine, there are many many on the Endless-Sphere forum that have went 10s 4P with these packs and have had then balance out perfectly. NONE have found any major problems.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have spoken with my battery builder in regards to your commnets, because I respect your knowledge. His response is: "you are not thinking out of the box". He explained to me it can and has already been done.


Fine, you're a guy who's gonna do as you please. Go do it. 

I look forward to seeing you suceed, or fail.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wrong, I am a guy who is following the instructions of a very experienced battery builder. 



frodus said:


> Fine, you're a guy who's gonna do as you please. Go do it.
> 
> I look forward to seeing you suceed, or fail.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I can't logon to facebook at work on my lunch break, so I can't see his battery boxes and probably won't ever comment. If it works, good for him, very glad it does.

But from what you've explained about your batteries and configuration (maybe Lithiumstart has a different idea and you're just really bad at explaining), it doesn't apear that its going to work for you. You put your pack in their hands, I'm sure you'll be much better off than trying to put it together yourself. 

Again, good luck. I look forward to seeing the progress.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Ah! Now we are getting somewhere, my diagrams are not the final pack design, he even said my design will not work. The final pack design will come from the battery pack builder, not me. I will say the battery box will be built with 10s packs, how they will get configured is only a guess from me for now. I also know the packs can be used as is, the cells DO NOT need to be paralled into 10P. 



frodus said:


> But from what you've explained about your batteries and configuration (maybe Lithiumstart has a different idea and you're just really bad at explaining), it doesn't apear that its going to work for you. You put your pack in their hands, I'm sure you'll be much better off than trying to put it together yourself.
> 
> Again, good luck. I look forward to seeing the progress.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am having fun testing my Lipo packs individually. I am using an iCharger, it works for up to a 10s pack. My packs have been arriving around 38.5V, I discharge them to around 36V and the recharge them back to 38.5V for storage until we build the master pack. 

So far I have received around 60 37V 5ah packs, more on the way. They seem to be arriving daily.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Great news! John Metric's Enerland battery pack survived 7 runs down the track. He did charge for short periods between runs. Here is his comments for the NEDRA forum:

"I waited until now to post because I wanted to see my batteries back up balanced before I declared them to have survived. They did great. The BMS and pack were excellent as well."

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/message/8475

I feel much better now!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am excited to see your results.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, me too! I feel like a kid with a new toy. 

I am waiting on the specific directions on how to wire the battery pack with the new style BMS system. The main concern is the wires and tabs, once he figures what amount of batteries packs will work safely, then its time to build the lexan boxes and wire properly. We might have to add additional packs to use the existing pack wires. The worse case scenario is 90 packs which is 50ah 333v. Remember my number are not the final decision. With 90 packs the total pack weight is around 270lbs, with 45 to 90c rating.



Bowser330 said:


> I am excited to see your results.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/BioMoneyMan/TurnigyCells035.jpg


Are those new, off-the-shelf, Z2K's with all the fruit?!?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

One is brand new, the other has very little hours of use. 



Bellistner said:


> Are those new, off-the-shelf, Z2K's with all the fruit?!?


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Any new pictures to upload?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Pictures coming soon. We are cutting the lexan 220 and fiberglass today, soon to be screwed and glued. 



icec0o1 said:


> Any new pictures to upload?


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