# Programming Curtis 1238-I can help



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I need the interface cable to plug the controller into a PC, do you have them?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

You cannot make your own and must be purchsed from Curtis as a kit. Also the software floating around on the web will not work with the 1238. It must be the latest version. Best bet is to buy the 1311-4401 OEM version of the hand held programmer which works real good with 1238 available here [email protected]. You will not believe how much better you can program the 1238 to control a AC motor. Probably the most requested feature is setting up brake regen or brake current. There is a differant need in the programming of the regen/brake depending if you are clutch or clutchless. Both work real good.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually you can make your own cable, people have done it. I've rented the handheld programmer before and am quite aware of what you can change, but I'll be damned if I'm going to shell out $450-$500 to change settings in a controller that I already bought and paid for. No other controller out there forces you to do so. It's like buying a radio and then having to pay extra to change the station. Also, I'm pretty sure people have gotten the available software to work with the 1238. If I can't I'll just rent a programmer again.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ......but I'll be damned if I'm going to shell out $450-$500 to change settings in a controller that I already bought and paid for. No other controller out there forces you to do so........


A lot of others do it. Sevcon for one. And those guys change the firmware in the handheld so it doesn't work with different models of their controllers. A real PITA


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Actually you can make your own cable, people have done it...... Also, I'm pretty sure people have gotten the available software to work with the 1238.


Hi JR,

Can you post links to "how to" do this?

Thanks,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is a long thread, I think the most relevant info starts around here:
http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/electric-golf-carts/15316-programming-curtis-controller-14.html
This is also helpful:
http://www.nevzone.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=360
If you do it, might as well make up two


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

That software will not work with the 1238 as it is old 2006. Must be 2008 or newer. Also the interface some say will work will NOT work on the 1238.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This guy said he got it to work, though I don't know what software version he was using.


> I have a Curtis 1238 controller and had trouble programming it. The software would never connect.
> 
> The problem ended up being the buffer settings for my USB to RS-232 serial converter. Go to device manager, then COM ports. Right click on your adapter and go to properties. On the port settings tab, click advanced. Then turn down any buffers as low as they can go and Especially turn down any delay that might be there. Then it should work.
> 
> I tried three different USB-serial cables. One was from Radio Shack, a GigaWare piece of crap that kept giving me the bluescreen. I think that the driver just did not support win7. (By the way, the Curtis software does work on win7 just fine.) The second was a Prolific chip based converter and I still was not able to make it work. The third was an FTDI chip based converter. This is the one that I was able to make work, after I turned the buffers and delay as low as they could go.


http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/elec...gramming-curtis-controller-15.html#post465186


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

If he says it works where is proof like a picture of the screen and what version of software is he using. Doesnt sound realistic to me.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You scared people are gonna do this for free?

They've done it (several of them). Those buggy guys have done a lot to get these cables working, but it doesn't work with the code they posted. It works with the code on the 1314 CD. They need the different software, you're right.

In fact, that code they posted doesn't even work with the 1314 PC Programmer I've got.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

The software must be 2008 or later in order to work for the 1238. And, no one has demontrated that they have made up a interface that will work on a 1238. Its time people stop lying trying to be important on these forums as our pupose should be to help each other. The 1311 older model hand held will not work with the 1238 either. The 1238 is a differant animal when it comes to programming. The newer 1314PC with USB and new software works the best.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Actually, I bought one of each (one PC version and one handheld version). The handheld has been used by buddies of mine on their 1238, but I'll humor you and try mine tonight (I just got it back from my buddy yesterday). I've done it before, but I'll take some pictures this time.

If you're so "right" about the 1311, then why is it on the datasheet for the 1236, 1238 and 1238R as a means to program parameters into the controller?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Like most of the Forum mongers, you didnt get my point. The older model 1311 DO NOT WORK. Only the 4401, 3301, 2201 and the 1101. If your 1311 is not one of the abouve, it is the older model that does not work PERIOD.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Like most of the Forum mongers, you didnt get my point. The older model 1311 DO NOT WORK. Only the 4401, 3301, 2201 and the 1101. If your 1311 is not one of the abouve, it is the older model that does not work PERIOD.


Hey cruisin,

I've got a 1311-4401 Serial #00004370 LP manufact date 06090. Will it work with 1238?

Thanks,

major


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

And, like most of the know-it-all salesmen on here that clarify things after the fact ....... it backfired.

The "older Model" programmer is actually a 1307 programmer, which won't work. The 1311 is not the "old style", the 1307 is, but if I'm not mistaken, you can't even buy those anymore. So you're not even right. The "old" style isn't even in the 1311 family. Only 4 are in the 1311 family, 1101, 2201, 3301 and the 4401.

Maybe you should be a little more clear before you start off instead of being so abrasive. 

I was just trying to get you to prove your "facts", since you were accusing people of being wrong and being liars.


(p.s. I own a 1311-4401, and a 1314 with the 4401 software and a 1309 interface box)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Its time people stop lying trying to be important on these forums as our pupose should be to help each other.


That's interesting coming from someone who want's to "help" us by selling us over priced programmers and software to use the controller we already paid for. No one is lying to be important, whatever that means, we are trying to find ways to program OUR controllers without being ripped off. I understand your position as a vendor but you aren't exactly helping your potential sales with your current attitude.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Cruisin;*

Are you selling a service here, or offering free advice if people contact you via Email to take you up on the offer to help?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

First of all lets be clear of what I said and did. I havent tried to sell anybody a overpriced programmer or the softare as the previous scammer indicated. I do all the programming at no charge. I dont see any of you offering the above sevices. Secondly, the older model 1311 has differant numbers after the 1311 than the ones I listed. Those are the ones that dont work. Lastly, the other scammer that posted here, has a reputation of trying to correct everybody without the knowledge of the subject matter, and ALWAYS HAS TO BE RIGHT. He knows who he is. I noticed that nobody has come forward with proof of the working home brewed interface using the 06 software. I tried to tell you it wont work, yet the scammer keeps complaining about a overprice programmer and how everybody has made a cludge work. Both you guys need to step up to the plate and stop lying to feel important as a scammer. If the shoe fits, wear it.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Major, YES that programmer you have should work with most Curtis including the 1238 as it is current, but will be replaced in July. let me know if you need any help on how or what to program.






major said:


> Hey cruisin,
> 
> I've got a 1311-4401 Serial #00004370 LP manufact date 06090. Will it work with 1238?
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Lastly, the other scammer that posted here, has a reputation of trying to correct everybody without the knowledge of the subject matter, and ALWAYS HAS TO BE RIGHT. He knows who he is. I noticed that nobody has come forward with proof of the working home brewed interface using the 06 software. I tried to tell you it wont work, yet the scammer keeps complaining about a overprice programmer and how everybody has made a cludge work. Both you guys need to step up to the plate and stop lying to feel important as a scammer. If the shoe fits, wear it.


I guess I'm a failure as a scammer since I don't sell any products  I provided links to the information that I found, I didn't just make it up.
So you'll send me a programmer for free so I can program my controller? If so I guess I was wrong about you.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

cruisin said:


> I dont see any of you offering the above sevices.


Been offering those services for a little over a year now. JRP3 rented from me once before, along with several others. 

So just stop with the attitude. I'm skeptical of people building those dongles too, but there are reports of several people getting it working.... so only time will tell if they're right.

what are the 1311-XXXX part numbers we should watch out for? I could've sworn there weren't any other 1311 part numbers besides those.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

YES, I offer free advice to everyone even though I sell the HPEVS products at a reduce cost to forum members. I also tech classes in EV conversion and have been in the industry since 1979. I developed the cell pack using the 18650 cells for a EV and provided all the data to Tesla prior to their making their own design. I probably had the first VW EV to be powered by Li-ion with 29whr and 125mi range in 2008 and still everyday ride today.





david85 said:


> *Cruisin;*
> 
> Are you selling a service here, or offering free advice if people contact you via Email to take you up on the offer to help?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

You shouldnt tell others they are wrong because somebody else says they did it, unless you can VERIFY. Dont be a SCAMMER or a PIN HEAD.




QUOTE=JRP3;243834]I guess I'm a failure as a scammer since I don't sell any products  I provided links to the information that I found, I didn't just make it up.
So you'll send me a programmer for free so I can program my controller? If so I guess I was wrong about you.[/QUOTE]


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

cruisin said:


> major said:
> 
> 
> > Hey cruisin,
> ...


Hmmm, It doesn't  

And with regards to: 


cruisin said:


> I havent tried to sell anybody a overpriced programmer or the softare as the previous scammer indicated.


Your previous post seems to contradict that: 


cruisin said:


> Best bet is to buy the 1311-4401 OEM version of the hand held programmer which works real good with 1238 available here [email protected].


I have nothing against people in business. I like it even more when people genuinely try to help others without making a buck. For curiosity sake, what is the SRP for the 1311-4401 and the correct PC package (software and dongle)? And what discount can you offer to us DIYers? Send me a PM if you don't want to broadcast it.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> You shouldnt tell others they are wrong because somebody else says they did it, unless you can VERIFY. Dont be a SCAMMER or a PIN HEAD.


Again, I sell nothing so I'm not a scammer, and I just touched the top of my head and didn't stick myself, so I guess I'm not a pin head either 
I must say you are representing your business very well with your attitude.  Obviously I'll be highly recommending your services.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

cruisin said:


> The software must be 2008 or later in order to work for the 1238. And, no one has demontrated that they have made up a interface that will work on a 1238. Its time people stop lying trying to be important on these forums as our pupose should be to help each other.


Just so you know, and because you doubted that anyone had it working..... I decided to try it myself!

I went home and took a USB-Serial dongle I had laying around, looked around at pinouts online, traced it through my 4-pin connector for programming and used the current curtis software I got off my CD for my 1314-4401 (I also tried the software available online that "doesn't work")

Works just fine (both the software on my CD and the one you can download)! I connected in like 2 seconds. First try. I was actually pretty surprised that it was so easy.

What you need:
Curtis software (I won't redistribute this, so do NOT ask me for it. Find it somewhere else)
IOGear GUC232A
RS232 cable cut in half
Pinouts that I found (http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/elec...gramming-curtis-controller-16.html#post489324) 

Oh and in case you don't believe me.....


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

major said:


> Hmmm, It doesn't


Hey cruis,

I wasn't trying to be mean. I was actually asking for the help you offer to tell me why it doesn't work and how I can get it to work. Any ideas? 

I have available a new one at the lab which looks identical to my old one with same part number. The new one works fine. But my old one draws a blank. It used to work on the SepEx controllers a few years ago. Does it need an upgrade in firmware or a new "chip" or something?

Thanks,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you saying the old one doesn't power up at all, or just fails to connect?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are you saying the old one doesn't power up at all, or just fails to connect?


Been a couple of months. Don't recall. I'll take it in and try again. I remember switching cables with the new one, but that didn't help.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

frodus said:


> Just so you know, and because you doubted that anyone had it working..... I decided to try it myself!
> 
> I went home and took a USB-Serial dongle I had laying around, looked around at pinouts online, traced it through my 4-pin connector for programming and used the current curtis software I got off my CD for my 1314-4401 (I also tried the software available online that "doesn't work")
> 
> ...


This post had me cracking up.... wow. There you go. Nice job Travis. Servin' up some crow here.... lol

Sorry folks, I just couldn't help myself. The thing is, this would all be so much better with the ego checked at the door. This is really valuable stuff to the folks that need it. It could have been arrived at without the problems... It's obvious that Cruisin has a lot of knowledge of the products also. We all have stuff to learn and make mistakes along the way. Being a little humble just helps a lot when we trip up. I've done lots of trippin....  but I keep getting up.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

But let me say this, I DO however think that Cruisin, with his experience selling systems, has lots to offer people in setting these controllers up. There are many settings, if improperly set, could actually cause failures. 

If you're thinking of changing settings, and aren't sure, at least talk to Cruisin' or HPEVS first to verify that it's going to be a correct change or not.

I've been working with Drive systems for years, but I still plan on checking things before I just get in there and start changing parameters.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are you saying the old one doesn't power up at all, or just fails to connect?


Hi JR,

I just tried it again. The new handheld (1311-4401) connects and works well. Then I plugged in the old one (1311-4401) and the display on the handset lights up and shows the Curtis logo and message that it is loading. Stays that way for about 2 seconds, goes blank, then starts over again with the loading message, 2 seconds, blank, repeats like this forever 

When the outfit bought the AC15 package, I checked and was told the 1311-4401 would work. We actually bought 2 systems, but I only had them get one handheld because I had this one. Now the one AC15 system is out on a truck belonging to a client and I am one functional handset short. And now the budget has gone away. 

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That sounds like corrupted firmware failing to load. Curtis may have a fail safe mode or a way to reset it, or it may have to go back to them for a reflash or something. Have you tried contacting Curtis, or HPEVS?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Thankyou TRAVIS, my intent is to make available the programming to those who bought their AC-50 from drop ship dealers and dont provide support. Since my posying I have had 4 people drop by for my offer of ree programming and didnt realize how well everything will run when done right. The most important plan in dealing with a AC system is how to manage regen or braking. Enough said.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I have a few questions cruisin:

1) Are you using a brake pot for input to pin 27 to control regen with a second pedal, which when depressed beyond a certain range then depresses the pedal for mechanical brakes? If so, what do you see as the advantage of doing it that way rather than using the Neutral_Braking parameter and accelerator pedal to control regen?

2) What parameter settings do you recommend for maximum vehicle acceleration?

3) What Base_Speed parameter setting are you using, and what is your pack voltage?

I'm using the Neutral_Braking parameter, Regen Limiting Map, Regen_Current_Limit, and accelerator pedal to control regen. The parameters I see that would seem to effect acceleration are Accel_Rate, Gear_Soften, and Drive_Current_Limit. Would be nice to compare notes to see if I've missed something.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

1) I recommend using the type 2 pot 3 wire which uses pins 17, 18 and 27. I use a 3rd pedal connected to the brake pedal that utilizes the first 2" of travel for the pot and the balance for the disk brakes, which are hardly ever used. Regen should be set around 3 for clutchless and whatever you want for clutch type. I prefer using clutchless and a setting of 3 which eliminates regen with pedal off. All regen is then controlled naturally with the brake pedal just like a hybrid. Some people like to use the accelerator pedal for throttle and brake like a golf cart, but you use energy to coast.

2) Acceleration should be set to .1.

3) Base speed should be set at default. Dont change any motor parameters using the AC-50 as the parameters where set up between Curtis and HPEV to ensure the proper compatability. If there is some performance improvments in changing the parameters I am not aware of them.

4) Gear_Soften could be set to .1 but I havent seen much differance here.

5) I use 70% on brake current due to light car, 2001 lbs. Heavier car could use more. Using too much will skid the wheels on a rear drive light car. Nose dive on front wheel car.

6) 100% 0n Drive_Current is good.

I hope this helps you to make your ride better.





tomofreno said:


> I have a few questions cruisin:
> 
> 1) Are you using a brake pot for input to pin 27 to control regen with a second pedal, which when depressed beyond a certain range then depresses the pedal for mechanical brakes? If so, what do you see as the advantage of doing it that way rather than using the Neutral_Braking parameter and accelerator pedal to control regen?
> 
> ...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks. 

What makes you say you use energy to coast using the accelerator pedal for braking? Seems if I hold the pedal so that battery current reads zero, I should not be using any energy from the pack. I can do that easily with a Hall throttle, was sometimes difficult with a pot box as it would sometimes jump around. Also of course depends on how touchy the throttle is - how the throttle map is set up.

I'm using the parameters you stated for Accel and Gear_Soften - the minimum settings. The manual describes how to set base speed. I think I'll try it and see what value the controller posts for base speed. I expect it would depend on pack voltage.

I would think one advantage of using a separate pedal and brake input as you do for regen would be that you could set it up fairly high, 70% or so like you use, and most of the time you wouldn't go that high but when you need to brake quickly you would use more, adding to your mechanical braking and reducing stopping distance. I've limited it to 55% using the accelerator pedal. What Hall throttle are you using for the brake input? 

I don't like the method of using a pressure transducer on the original brake pedal to actuate regen, as even with a light touch of the pedal I think the mechanical brakes will drag somewhat reducing the energy you get from regen, and the more you depress the pedal to get more regen the more frictional loss in the mechanical brakes. 

Have more photos on how you set up the third pedal?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Some people like to use the accelerator pedal for throttle and brake like a golf cart, but you use energy to coast.


Not necessarily, you should be able to find a neutral spot on the throttle which uses zero current in or out that allows full coasting with proper pedal position.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> The manual describes how to set base speed. I think I'll try it and see what value the controller posts for base speed. I expect it would depend on pack voltage.


What do you expect to see from altering the base speed?


> I would think one advantage of using a separate pedal and brake input as you do for regen would be that you could set it up fairly high, 70% or so like you use, and most of the time you wouldn't go that high but when you need to brake quickly you would use more, adding to your mechanical braking and reducing stopping distance. I've limited it to 55% using the accelerator pedal.


I was thinking of putting another pot in parallel with the throttle, that way I think I can effectively adjust the amount of regen by changing the off throttle "zero" value.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Its true that you CAN coast with 0 amps, but you you need to find the precise point by watching your amp meter to do so. NOT A GOOD IDEA. Also, clutchless should not have any regen and since most of those I have helped and worked on prefer clutchless as you dont need to shift anyway, unless correcting in a hilly terrain. The key to using the pot box is the 3 wire, not 2 wire. Dont use the pressure transducer as there is no way to seperate brake power from brakes. In my opinion, the setup should be as close to the way all Hybrids work as they really work well. They have the electronics to do it that way. 

Let me know how your changes to the base speed effects acceleration and other things.

I have added a picture of MY pedal assembly which turned out to be the best of all the designs I have come with. VERY VERY smooth in both acceleration and braking and extremy controllable with precision. Works about the same as the TOYATA and LEXUS Hybrids in feel. I have used differant setups on customers cars to their liking, but this works best for me.

A couple of other suggestions are:
1) Use a brake pot 3 wire with switch so that you can hook up the switch for the brake light, otherwise your light will not come on until Disk Bracks are used.
2) If you are using a cheap AC mechanical relay for the 1238, throw it away and get a SSR DC relay off EBAY for about $12.00. Money well spen to avaiod a problem
that will happen sooner or later. You would not believe how many I have replaced in customer cars.




tomofreno said:


> Thanks.
> 
> What makes you say you use energy to coast using the accelerator pedal for braking? Seems if I hold the pedal so that battery current reads zero, I should not be using any energy from the pack. I can do that easily with a Hall throttle, was sometimes difficult with a pot box as it would sometimes jump around. Also of course depends on how touchy the throttle is - how the throttle map is set up.
> 
> ...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Its true that you CAN coast with 0 amps, but you you need to find the precise point by watching your amp meter to do so. NOT A GOOD IDEA.


 I don't find it as difficult as you portray it. Most of the time I am supplying current from the batteries to the controller, just varying how much to control speed, or applying regen to slow for traffic or stop. I usually only coast when there is an opportunity on a slight grade with little traffic, or see a light change from far off and there is no traffic to impede by coasting. In those cases, glancing at the current meter once in a while, which is at eye level on the windshield post about 1 1/2 ft from my head, is no problem. On larger grades I have to apply some regen to stay within the speed limit. I find there isn't really much opportunity to coast, usually due to traffic.



> Let me know how your changes to the base speed effects acceleration and other things.


 Will post it here. I'm not expecting much difference, but want to check.




> I have added a picture of MY pedal assembly which turned out to be the best of all the designs I have come with. VERY VERY smooth in both acceleration and braking and extremely controllable with precision.


 Thanks. Looks very clean. Where did you get those Hall throttles? 



> Use a brake pot 3 wire with switch so that you can hook up the switch for the brake light, otherwise your light will not come on until Disk Bracks are used.


 Do you mean the brake pot you use has an integral switch, or are you using a separate switch, or the original switch that was in the car?
That's a downside of using the accelerator pedal for regen. I sometimes have to touch my brake pedal to turn on the brake lights while regening to a stop if someone is close behind, but it is normally not an issue. I've been asking HPEVS for about 6 months or more to add some code to send a signal from a D.O. port on the controller which could be used to drive a relay to turn on brake lights. They have said they will do it, but they are always too busy to get around to it. I may try out your third pedal design for that reason.



> If you are using a cheap AC mechanical relay for the 1238, throw it away and get a SSR DC relay off EBAY for about $12.00.


 What are you talking about here? The ksi? HPEVS included that relay with the kit, a solid state automotive type.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

cruisin said:


> YES, I offer free advice to everyone even though I sell the HPEVS products at a reduce cost to forum members. I also tech classes in EV conversion and have been in the industry since 1979. I developed the cell pack using the 18650 cells for a EV and provided all the data to Tesla prior to their making their own design. I probably had the first VW EV to be powered by Li-ion with 29whr and 125mi range in 2008 and still everyday ride today.


A little late, but thats all I needed to hear. Sometimes we need to be driect.

Thanks for all the spam reports too - your help there hasn't gone unnoticed either.

Congrats on the car too. I'd love to see the rest of the specs to compare notes since mine has a similar setup.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I don't find it as difficult as you portray it. Most of the time I am supplying current from the batteries to the controller, just varying how much to control speed, or applying regen to slow for traffic or stop. I usually only coast when there is an opportunity on a slight grade with little traffic, or see a light change from far off and there is no traffic to impede by coasting. In those cases, glancing at the current meter once in a while, which is at eye level on the windshield post about 1 1/2 ft from my head, is no problem. On larger grades I have to apply some regen to stay within the speed limit. I find there isn't really much opportunity to coast, usually due to traffic.


I agree on all points.


> Thanks. Looks very clean. Where did you get those Hall throttles?


They look like Kelly units, though Kelly gets them from some other supplier.


> Do you mean the brake pot you use has an integral switch, or are you using a separate switch, or the original switch that was in the car?


He's probably using the micro switch in the Hall throttles.


> That's a downside of using the accelerator pedal for regen. I sometimes have to touch my brake pedal to turn on the brake lights while regening to a stop if someone is close behind, but it is normally not an issue. I've been asking HPEVS for about 6 months or more to add some code to send a signal from a D.O. port on the controller which could be used to drive a relay to turn on brake lights. They have said they will do it, but they are always too busy to get around to it. I may try out your third pedal design for that reason.


Can't you just use the throttle micro switch to turn on the brake lights when off throttle?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Your setup would not work on clutchless. we did a lot of testing on clutchless versus clutch and found a big differance. Most all my customers have opt for clutchless.

Pedal assemblies are Kelly and are 3 wire pot and 2 wire switch. I have tried them all and these work the best without a cable that can get stuck. Drive by wire is the most modern and trouble free.

Yes, its the relay that is provided and its not SS. Its not even DC. When they fail, they are in the closed position. For $12.00, it isnt worth taking a chance. I also use the SSR to turn on my half brick DC-DC converters.





tomofreno said:


> I don't find it as difficult as you portray it. Most of the time I am supplying current from the batteries to the controller, just varying how much to control speed, or applying regen to slow for traffic or stop. I usually only coast when there is an opportunity on a slight grade with little traffic, or see a light change from far off and there is no traffic to impede by coasting. In those cases, glancing at the current meter once in a while, which is at eye level on the windshield post about 1 1/2 ft from my head, is no problem. On larger grades I have to apply some regen to stay within the speed limit. I find there isn't really much opportunity to coast, usually due to traffic.
> 
> Will post it here. I'm not expecting much difference, but want to check.
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Your setup would not work on clutchless.


I'm running A pedal regen on a clutchless setup. Shifting must be done quickly since there is a narrow window before the regen slows the motor too much, but it is possible. Ideally you'd be able to momentarily disable regen when shifting.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm running A pedal regen on a clutchless setup. Shifting must be done quickly since there is a narrow window before the regen slows the motor too much, but it is possible. Ideally you'd be able to momentarily disable regen when shifting.


When you pull the tranny and pay to have the syncro replaced, you will know why. Been there many times. Switch in pedal box is NO. Wont turn on brake light in NO position.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe you could switch it to a NC unit? Or mount a NC switch that contacts the throttle arm when off throttle. Of course it would have to be switched by ignition as well or your brake lights will be on when parked.
In reality I rarely shift, I do 99% of my driving in second gear, so I probably won't be throwing syncros for a long time. However, since in any clutchless setup you have to match motor and transmission speeds to shift without grinding with or without regen I'm not sure why my shifting would wear any more than no regen shifting.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Maybe you could switch it to a NC unit? Or mount a NC switch that contacts the throttle arm when off throttle. Of course it would have to be switched by ignition as well or your brake lights will be on when parked.


 I don't see how a simple on/off switch could work. Throttle position for regen varies, as it depends on relative motor rpm and wheel rpm. The wheels have to be driving the rotor, and that occurs at different motor rpm and hence different throttle positions depending on vehicle speed and gearing. Such a switch works fine on a brake pedal like cruisin uses since when you depress the pedal, no matter how much, you are applying some regen and the brake lights come on. Doesn't work that way on the accelerator pedal.




> Yes, its the relay that is provided and its not SS. Its not even DC. When they fail, they are in the closed position. For $12.00, it isnt worth taking a chance.


 SSR's fail shorted, and cheap ones are not reliable. I'll look for a replacement.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I don't see how a simple on/off switch could work. Throttle position for regen varies, as it depends on relative motor rpm and wheel rpm. The wheels have to be driving the rotor, and that occurs at different motor rpm and hence different throttle positions depending on vehicle speed and gearing. Such a switch works fine on a brake pedal like cruisin uses since when you depress the pedal, no matter how much, you are applying some regen and the brake lights come on. Doesn't work that way on the accelerator pedal.


You don't want your brake light to come on with light to moderate regen, and your strongest regen will be when you are off the pedal, or nearly so. When I want to stop quickly my foot is off the pedal. I think you could find a position for a switch that would work well most of the time. I can't say it's been an issue for me but I have my regen set a little lower than you and I don't usually drive in heavy traffic.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> 2) If you are using a cheap AC mechanical relay for the 1238, throw it away and get a SSR DC relay off EBAY for about $12.00. Money well spen to avaiod a problem
> that will happen sooner or later. You would not believe how many I have replaced in customer cars.


Have you informed HPEVS that their supplied relay is failing frequently?


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You don't want your brake light to come on with light to moderate regen, and your strongest regen will be when you are off the pedal, or nearly so. When I want to stop quickly my foot is off the pedal. I think you could find a position for a switch that would work well most of the time. I can't say it's been an issue for me but I have my regen set a little lower than you and I don't usually drive in heavy traffic.


SSR's dont fail shorted. When they fail, which is rare, they fail open as the LED has burned out. I have not had a single $12.00 SSR fail yet. The mechanical relays fail all the time and AC relays should never be used on a DC circuit. Once again, its not worth $12.00. I use them to turn on DC-DC half brick on all my conversions with no failures of any kind. Others using IOTA and the more expensive DC converters cannot say the same. Longivity and dependability is the key here.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> SSR's dont fail shorted. When they fail, which is rare, they fail open as the LED has burned out.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ssr-relay-failure-fire-no-fun-51178.html


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ssr-relay-failure-fire-no-fun-51178.html


More than likely had the source voltage on the wrong terminal. The specifications from the electronics industry will tell you what will happen if you dont connect the way it is designed to. I am supprised that people who have these failures dont tell the details to others and others believe them. Do a google and you will see that there is loads of info regarding this subject which I guess nobody cared to look at. Spend some time now to see if you can prove me wrong which seems to be evrybodys interest here instead of giving factual help.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

And you accused me of always having to be right  Let's face it, everyone can make mistakes and be wrong, and your "facts" about connecting to the 1238 without the official programmer or cable were just wrong. We are interested in actual factual information, and not just because you deem it so. Don't take it personally when we don't agree with everything you say, especially when we've seen contradictory evidence.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The failure mode for an SSR can be either ON or OFF, with failing ON being more likely, but happens due to overheating of the junction, or due to false turn on due to large inductive currents near the SSR itself.

So, mount so that it gets proper cooling, and don't shove too much current through it.

Again, we're here with factual information:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...Q&q=SSR+failure+mode&spell=1&biw=1436&bih=425


I agree with Cruisin though, don't use a AC relay for a DC system, and if you properly spec a DC relay with DC contacts (like a KUEP-3D55-12) then you should be fine.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

frodus said:


> The failure mode for an SSR can be either ON or OFF, with failing ON being more likely, but happens due to overheating of the junction, or due to false turn on due to large inductive currents near the SSR itself.
> 
> So, mount so that it gets proper cooling, and don't shove too much current through it.
> 
> ...


Did you mean to say, dont use a AC rated relay on a DC source system?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Did you mean to say, dont use a AC rated relay on a DC source system?


oops, yeah, but the same applies 

use DC for DC and AC for AC.

I'm using the Tyco KUEP-3D55-12, rated 150VDC on the contacts, 12VDC coil. Works great.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Yes, its the relay that is provided and its not SS. Its not even DC. When they fail, they are in the closed position.


 I talked to Bill at HPEVS about this today. He said he is not aware of any failures, that they have them in over 300 vehicles, including Wheegos, and have not had one failure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I really doubted that if the part were failing as much as was claimed that HPEVS wouldn't be aware of it and change it. I didn't look it up but the current being switched has to be minimal.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I really doubted that if the part were failing as much as was claimed that HPEVS wouldn't be aware of it and change it. I didn't look it up but the current being switched has to be minimal.


Each to his own. One thing I have found when I teach my classes, is that you consider doing the following.

1) Design the system attempting to make it as close to production designs as possible.
2) Only one way to do it, the right way.
3) Dont use the $$ alone to select the product you will use.
4) Dont use electrical parts not rated for their intended use.
5) Always consider what it is going to look like to others.
6) Simplify the operation of the vehicle with others in mind.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like simple, and I like properly rated components, but I have to wonder what is going on when HPEVS, who sells the systems and would have to deal with warranty issues and liability, has reported no failures, when you say they are common. Obviously they aren't aware of the problems you've had, and as a dealer I would think you would inform them of frequent component failures. Certainly Tomofreno has many miles on his AC50 system with no issues. He may have the most miles on an AC50 of anyone, other than maybe Jack Rickard.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I like simple, and I like properly rated components, but I have to wonder what is going on when HPEVS, who sells the systems and would have to deal with warranty issues and liability, has reported no failures, when you say they are common. Obviously they aren't aware of the problems you've had, and as a dealer I would think you would inform them of frequent component failures. Certainly Tomofreno has many miles on his AC50 system with no issues. He may have the most miles on an AC50 of anyone, other than maybe Jack Rickard.


You are misquoting what I am saying. I said its not worth $13.00 to take a chance on a mechanical relay verses a SS relay. I didnt say HPEVs relays are failing, I said I have replaced a lot of relays that are mechanical with SS relays. You seem to be full of malice in dealing with those who are trying to help, so, to see if you have any creditability, post pictures of your conversions. The lack of is going to be a red flag. My class will monitor your actions. They think you may be out to lunch mentally like the other guy on this forum who has the same mental problems. I am betting you are a flake. Prove me wrong. No pictures of a car other than yours will do. I probably have done more conversions than you are in years old. Since 1978 actually. What have you done? Not much I bet.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cruisin,

JRP3 has a conversion that he drives (bottom link in his signature). We've all seen photos of the car before, during, and after the conversion along with a few driving videos. We enjoyed all of them (I did at least).

But more to the point, proving who is the most qualified on a forum like this is VERY hard to accomplish because of the nature of the medium. Even face to face with resume in hand, such a contest rarely turns out good. Really, its not worth fighting over and will likely only turn out with more bad blood. If this was a simple misunderstanding, then I don't see what harm was done, now that its been cleared up. Whats wrong with having a difference of opinion?

Whats unfortunate about this, is the idea of a SS relay sounds interesting to me and I've considered using them, but thus far haven't tried any yet because I don't know enough about them.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

cruisin said:


> You are misquoting what I am saying. I said its not worth $13.00 to take a chance on a mechanical relay verses a SS relay. I didnt say HPEVs relays are failing, I said I have replaced a lot of relays that are mechanical with SS relays.


In my experience a properly rated mechanical relay is more reliable than an SS relay. After all, that is why we have main contactors, not main SSRs.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> You are misquoting what I am saying. I said its not worth $13.00 to take a chance on a mechanical relay verses a SS relay. I didnt say HPEVs relays are failing, I said I have replaced a lot of relays that are mechanical with SS relays.


Sorry, but it's not a stretch to assume you are replacing components because they are failing. What you are now saying is you are replacing these relays without evidence that they actually fail, you just think they might.


> You seem to be full of malice in dealing with those who are trying to help, so, to see if you have any creditability, post pictures of your conversions. The lack of is going to be a red flag. My class will monitor your actions. They think you may be out to lunch mentally like the other guy on this forum who has the same mental problems. I am betting you are a flake. Prove me wrong. No pictures of a car other than yours will do. I probably have done more conversions than you are in years old. Since 1978 actually. What have you done? Not much I bet.


You really are something, you're the one with obvious malice when anyone dares question what you post. You constantly make statements as if they are absolutes and when you are given real world proof that completely contradicts your statements you take it personally and attack the person providing the information. At this point you've made so many incorrect proclamations that have been proven false I can't take anything you say as fact. I thought you might have something to add to the discussion because of your experience but at this point I'm not convinced that is the case at all. You think far too highly of yourself and your opinions, just because you do something one way does not mean it's the only way, or necessarily even the best way. Any teacher who is not able to learn isn't much of an instructor. I've made plenty of mistakes and made plenty of incorrect statements, and when provided with proof of my errors I am grateful for the education and take in the knowledge and pass it on to others when I can.
You really need to ask yourself why you take things so personally and why so many of the things you've stated as absolute fact have been proven to be false.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As David points out it's not that difficult to click on the two garage links in every one of my posts that show my two conversions.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> You are misquoting what I am saying. I said its not worth $13.00 to take a chance on a mechanical relay verses a SS relay. I didnt say HPEVs relays are failing, I said I have replaced a lot of relays that are mechanical with SS relays.


 It certainly didn't sound that way:



> 2) If you are using a cheap AC mechanical relay for the 1238, throw it away and get a SSR DC relay off EBAY for about $12.00. Money well spen to avaiod a problem that will happen sooner or later. You would not believe how many I have replaced in customer cars.





> What are you talking about here? The ksi? HPEVS included that relay with the kit, a solid state automotive type.





> Yes, its the relay that is provided and its not SS. Its not even DC. When they fail, they are in the closed position.


Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but it sure sounded like you were saying it is the relay provided by HPEVS that fails.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I decided to clean up some posts that went too far. I try not to pick sides but Cruisin was way out of line even if he is right on the technical side (of which I have my doubts). I hope he thinks before the next post because my patience is wearing thin.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Actually you can make your own cable, people have done it. I've rented the handheld programmer before and am quite aware of what you can change, but I'll be damned if I'm going to shell out $450-$500 to change settings in a controller that I already bought and paid for. No other controller out there forces you to do so. It's like buying a radio and then having to pay extra to change the station. Also, I'm pretty sure people have gotten the available software to work with the 1238. If I can't I'll just rent a programmer again.


No other controller out there charges for programming? How about ALL the chargers if you want additional algorithms that are not resident?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

cruisin said:


> If you need help programming the Curtis 1238 on a AC system,.....


Hi cru,

Is it possible to set a maximum motor voltage?

Thanks in advance,

major


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

major said:


> Hi cru,
> 
> Is it possible to set a maximum motor voltage?
> 
> ...


Motor voltage, I dont think so. Why would you want to limit the motor voltage which is a function of the controller. Only traction power voltage to the controller. The controller does have firmware to prevent >130v for internal protection. I have modified a 1238 to use more than 130v, however the specs of the internal parts are too low to allow higher voltages.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

cruisin said:


> Motor voltage, I dont think so.


I didn't think so.



cruisin said:


> Why would you want to limit the motor voltage which is a function of the controller?


An application which needs an unusual power profile. An AC motor voltage limit seemed a logical means to accomplish a battery power limit over a wide load range and drastic DC voltage variance.



cruisin said:


> Only traction power voltage to the controller.


What do you mean by this? Which parameter?



cruisin said:


> The controller does have firmware to prevent >130v for internal protection. I have modified a 1238 to use more than 130v, however the specs of the internal parts are too low to allow higher voltages.


Unlike a lot of my stuff, I am not pushing the upper limits on this one  Rather workin' the lower end and actually would like to set a maximum motor voltage of say 20VAC. Since the Curtis doesn't even read out AC volts I didn't think there was a way to program it, but I haven't been into the motor tuning part of it. Industrial VFD's have a maximum AC motor voltage parameter. I was hoping Curtis had something.

Thanks,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cruisin said:


> No other controller out there charges for programming? How about ALL the chargers if you want additional algorithms that are not resident?


Um, a *charger* is not a *controller*....obviously.
The less expensive, more powerful Solition Jr. for example allows parameter adjustment with a computer, for free.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Um, a *charger* is not a *controller*....obviously.
> The less expensive, more powerful Solition Jr. for example allows parameter adjustment with a computer, for free.


Um, a *DC controller* is not a AC *controller*....obviously. I thought the subject was the 1238. Why are you so far off the subject trying to be right all the time? You critisized me for using a charger as a example. And then you use a DC controller as a example. Whats with you?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since I said "no other controller" requires additional software or programmer purchases obviously we weren't just talking about the Curtis AC controller. This thread went south on you a while back, not sure why you decided to bring it back into the light.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Other controllers that require a programmer or adapter:
Sevcon (proprietary) http://www.sevcon.com/
PG Drives (proprietary) http://www.pgdt.com/default.html
Rinehart (Canbus) http://www.rinehartmotion.com/
Brusa (Canbus) http://www.brusa.biz/index.php?L=1
Synkromotive (Canbus) http://www.synkromotive.com/
Netgain Warp Drive (Canbus) http://www.ngcontrols.com/

Plus a ton of the industrial drives like Indramat, Siemens, Allen Bradley, etc use an interface and in some cases, proprietary software. Sure Canbus dongles are $150 or more, but it's still something else to buy. Plus some decent software to write changes over Can, that WILL set you back as well.

Not trying to be an jerk JRP3, but Curtis isn't the only one.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

frodus said:


> Other controllers that require a programmer or adapter:
> Sevcon (proprietary) http://www.sevcon.com/
> PG Drives (proprietary) http://www.pgdt.com/default.html
> Rinehart (Canbus) http://www.rinehartmotion.com/
> ...


can't speak for the rest, but Synkromotive includes the USB dongle and the software package with the controller, so it is not something you need to purchase in addition to the controller.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Good to know!

I was a beta tester with my bike and it was all done with just a USB cable before they changed to canbus. So like rev 1 was in my bike...lol


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> Not trying to be an jerk JRP3, but Curtis isn't the only one.


Fair enough, but none of those other than NetGain are commonly used controllers for DIY EV's. I didn't even know Synkromotive was still selling controllers.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't even know Synkromotive was still selling controllers.


i get the impression the DIY market is something they tolerate as opposed to market to... their main focus these days appears to be the development of a charger/bms and a DC/DC convertor, but they are definitely still selling the controller. It's a solid mature design that is (i believe) not going to see any further development.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Fair enough, but none of those other than NetGain are commonly used controllers for DIY EV's. I didn't even know Synkromotive was still selling controllers.


More common than you think.... but Sevcon is used quite a bit in small cars, golf carts, NEV's, Motorcycles, scooters. Rinehart is used in race vehicles and OEM vehicles. Brusa is used in conversions, hybrids and OEM vehicles. PG Drives have been used in OEM motorcycles, OEM ATV's. 

And yeah, Synkro isn't really marketing to DIY, they're working with other companies at this point and it's not just controllers. I'm working on a vehicle now with a Synkromotive controller in it (Mini Cooper).

For reference (I realize this isn't all conversions, but it's a starting point)
http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl
Synkromotive: 8
Netgain: 12
Sevcon: 46
PG Drives: 7
Brusa: 20

Synkro has almost as many out there as Netgain, and you said netgain is a commonly used controller. Sevcon is used as much as all of those combined and is in the top 10 (if you don't count bicycle controllers like Crystalite, Yi Yun etc). Sevcon is currently used about as much as Evnetics and Siemens.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

frodus said:


> More common than you think........


Man, you guys really drag off topic. Can anybody shed light on my question about motor voltage limit?

And another one. What is the continuous current rating for the Curtis 1238?

Any help here is appreciated.

major


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Which 1238? The 6601, 7501 and 7601 don't have any thing other than 2 min ratings in the manual I've got. Continuous for the 6501 is 155A. There's nothing in the manual about changing motor voltage, but why not just use a 24V controller to begin with? 

Email me and I can send you the latest manual I've got, but it doesn't have the 7601 in it. I'll try and get it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

frodus said:


> Which 1238? The 6601, 7501 and 7601 don't have any thing other than 2 min ratings in the manual I've got. Continuous for the 6501 is 155A. There's nothing in the manual about changing motor voltage, but why not just use a 24V controller to begin with?


Thanks Trav,

I have the 6501. I have a 48V battery. I just need to limit motor voltage for some strange reason I can't get into here. Where did you get the 155A continuous? Actually sounds about right from what I see in testing without further heatsinking.

I know the 2 minute ratings from the sales info.

Regards,

major


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

155A continuous from the manuals I've got. 

I've got questions in with my contacts at curtis.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just to add to this thread:

Yes, the older software works on the 1238-7601 controller.

Yes, you can make your own Dongle. Get a DB9 extender cable. Cut off one end. direct solder them to the wiring going to the Spyglass. (TX to RX, RX to TX, GRD to GRD, do NOT connect the power wires).

I do not use USB, others do. It complicates the situation. I use an OLD lap top with a serial port and XP. 
EDIT: I started using a USB. You open the software, select options, set the port to COM 2 (com 1 is always some system device). With software running and USB converter plugged in: go into Device Driver and select the PORT where the dongle/converter shows- set it to be COM 2. exit. reboot computer. it will work then...

DO Not use a battery charger at the same time as a computer is plugged in, there is no isolation in this set up.

Buy the new software, which has some nice features the old one does not...
OR rent from FRODUS- http://www.emf-power.com/


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## licc (Aug 14, 2011)

Hi.
I have used Curtis 1238-6501. There is a problem in its programming. Programming Station 1314-4401 normal programs Curtis 1238-*7601*, but when programming Curtis 1238-*6501*, I can not change some of the values​​.
1. Can not add rpm to the torque mode (3450 is, I need 6000).
2. I can not change the pole motor (motor type 0. 4 is, I need 6)
3. Do not Run "motor haracterization Procedure" (controller have a stupor)
Other parameters of the controller can be changed.
where is my mistake?


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## gaminde (Sep 18, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Just to add to this thread:
> 
> Yes, the "internet" down loaded software works on the 1238-7601 controller.
> 
> ...


Here is an adapter I made, yes I know you don't need one but I had a number of controllers that I could not make contact with, now they light up first time every time. I use a usb adapter from staples works great so I have a com1 standard com port and can use any usb port, my usb adapter is set up as com 3. I made 4 boards for myself and have different ends on them for different setups suppose I could make more. They should provide isolation and are powered from the controller pin 4.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

licc said:


> Hi.
> I have used Curtis 1238-6501. There is a problem in its programming. Programming Station 1314-4401 normal programs Curtis 1238-*7601*, but when programming Curtis 1238-*6501*, I can not change some of the values​​.
> 1. Can not add rpm to the torque mode (3450 is, I need 6000).
> 2. I can not change the pole motor (motor type 0. 4 is, I need 6)
> ...


You have a controller with the VCL for a certain vehicle. Some vehicle makers lock off parameters to suit their vehicles.

You need to contact HPEVs and ask for Brian. They can probably help you reflash a new open VCL so you can adjust it.

Miz


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

licc said:


> Hi.
> I have used Curtis 1238-6501. There is a problem in its programming. Programming Station 1314-4401 normal programs Curtis 1238-*7601*, but when programming Curtis 1238-*6501*, I can not change some of the values​​.
> 1. Can not add rpm to the torque mode (3450 is, I need 6000).
> 2. I can not change the pole motor (motor type 0. 4 is, I need 6)
> ...


What vehicle is it being used in? Is it the same vehicle it was originally used for?

Some vehicles, like the Miles, Have the controller integrated and use other IO in the controller to interface to charger and a SOC meter. If you flash to an HPEVS firmware, you will lose that functionality and the vehicle may not work at all. It's important to know which it is.

I have experience with a couple vehicles on how to increase the speed, but it's important to know more about where the controller is from.


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## licc (Aug 14, 2011)

Thank you. Now all is ok. I reflash a new OS.


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## PSUstudent (Feb 18, 2014)

So maybe I missed the reference to it somewhere in the conversation. But I am attempting to find how to wire the 1309 programmer to the 35 pin connection. What I have is the Cable 4-Pin Molex (part no. 16185) Now I need a reference to what the pin designations on the molex end. The 4 pins are arranged in a 2x2 formation. so if i have the clip on the bottom end, what would each of the pins be labelled. This project is an independent study situation at my college, but there is very little information relevant to this matter. And maybe I am just not looking hard enough but I figured it would not hurt to ask. Thanks for any assistance you can provide.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

PM'd you, email me and I'll help out.


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