# Motor & Controller swap thread: ME1003 to AC-20.



## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Motor has same bolt pattern, shaft size, and keyway. It is a direct swap.


First serious problem encountered:

Having massive problems removing the coupler on the old motor. I got it on originally by cooking it in the oven to expand it, then hammering it on. I have removed the 2 set screws, but it will not budge:



















I have tried:

General pulling with generic tools. Heating with a heat gun. Massive 3 foot pry bar (risking the front bearing), and _nothing_. Not budging at all.

A gear puller doesn't have a spot to anchor in. The shaft is threaded, so I'm thinking about trying to just lock the shaft in place and screwing in a long bolt deep past the coupler with a hardened/wide washer to push itself out. That's my last option at this point, as I am fresh out of ideas. I knew it would be a pain in the ass to get this off if the time came to do so, but this is ridiculous.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

If that is a heat shrunk, pounded on fit, you will be very lucky if you get it off without having to cut it off.

Dissimilar metals of Aluminum/Steel, will literally weld themselves together at a molecular level when assembled like that.

Maybe you can just buy the Aluminum part of the adaptor........


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

BWA said:


> If that is a heat shrunk, pounded on fit, you will be very lucky if you get it off without having to cut it off.
> 
> Dissimilar metals of Aluminum/Steel, will literally weld themselves together at a molecular level when assembled like that.
> 
> Maybe you can just buy the Aluminum part of the adaptor........


I would have already given up on the coupler, but I can't even get off the adapter plate as-is...


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Yeah, I see what you are saying. If you can't get the coupler off, you can't get the adapter off, hole isn't big enough.

OK, what I would try, is, take off the clutch plate/spline assembly, get an Oxy Acetylene torch, with a medium brazing tip, and, heat that hub thingamy really hot, as fast as you can (without melting stuff). Have a couple of people ready with a couple of really good pry bars.

There will be enough heat sink with the mass of the motor and adapter, that, you shouldn't damage the motor, so long as you don't play the flame directly on any part of the motor. 

If that doesn't do it, you'll have to find some way of cutting it off..... 

Good luck with it......


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I recommend finding a solid puller that will fit in there and can apply some pressure before you even hit it with heat. perhaps make your own with a few pieces of bar stock with holes in the ends to run bolts through. like little bridges. Put some good pressure on it, then put some heat on it. you'll get it to move a little at a time. You may have to reset twenty times, but with heat and pressure, you'll get it apart.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm not sure why you couldn't get insane pressure with a good sized 3 jaw puller and a spacer down the center to press against the end of the motor shaft. Once you've got it loaded real good run a torch around the base of the hub till it pops.

Also you appear to have a bit of a gap between the hub and the adapter so you might be able to use a bearing splitter as well.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I realized I probably needed a mapp gas torch, hydraulic gear puller, and some BP blaster if I had a chance of getting it off. I had none of that, so I hit up my local auto shop. They agreed to do it for the cost of an hour of shop time, which is less than the cost of tools I would have needed; we'll see if they can pull it off.

In the meantime, I removed the old controller and contactor from the box. No mounting position really worked that well for the new controller and cooling block, so I'm relocating it outside the box. This also eliminates the chance of a disastrous leak in a box full of batteries.

Nothing really looks "good" with any of the layouts, but I'm slowly settling with just lying it flat. I'm using aluminum angle bar for maximum rigidity and minimal weight. Mock up:


















Here's the old used AC-20. Bearings spin a lot easier on brushless vs the ME1003, but that makes sense:









And I discovered an old dynograph from the motorcycle it was on previously on a 118v pack:









That's what I should be working with if I'm willing to add more LIPO packs in series... which my battery box now has room for since the old controller is out.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Seems there were two different common aftermarket chill plates for the 1238 Curtis controllers. One had ports out the side, and the other goes out the back. The one out the back is what made the mounting on a flat surface more difficult; the protruding coolant fittings prevent a flush mount while using the standard mounting holes. So, it was either add spacers and longer nuts/bolts or just not mount on a flat surface at all. I chose the latter.


















I previously used a 72v rated fuse, but I plan on changing it out. I'm trying to find a cheap fuse holder for the Bussmann fuse I have. It's so bulky in the center that I can't mount it flush to any of the terminals of my maintenance switch or new contactor. Does anyone know of a cheap fuse holder I can use with simple screw mounts?

It's a *JJN-400 fuse*, by Bussmann. It's "400A" and able to do higher voltage for when I decide to add more batteries in series. I was a bit wary of a "400A" fuse being on a water cooled controller seeing 650A for unknown lengths of time.

I found the datasheet: https://www.grainger.com/ec/pdf/4TWP6_1.pdf

I'm not the best at reading logarithmic graphs. Does it say it would handle 650A for nearly 200 seconds?? 400A for 300 seconds? Am I to assume it simply won't blow at all in the 350A continuous range? 

(I'm still waiting back on the shop to finally get around to pulling the coupler off the old motor. This was a "work at your leisure" agreement)


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

The shop _finally_ got the coupler off! Picked it up today.

I originally stated that it should be a direct swap between the ME1003 and the AC-20. Well, it's _almost_ the same. 

First big difference: The mounting bolt hole depth is more shallow on the AC-20 than the ME1003. The local hardware store didn't have the same style bolt at all, so I was forced to dremel them shorter.










Next difference... the AC-20 has about a quarter inch more shaft length than the ME1003, and the ME1003 was already at the shaft length limit. I had to cut it shorter.



















Hammered the coupler in place and secured the key with the set screws. I was really hoping this one would go on without requiring heat:










Finally bolted on!










The old motor sits in the background. There's about a 20-25 pound difference.

I rented a programmer for the controller... I'll be finishing up the final hard wiring tomorrow. My brakes are too sporadic in feel (despite removing all air from the lines) to use a pressure transducer for regen input. I think I'm just going to use a separate cheap hall foot pedal for that where the clutch would be, since mine is clutchless.

I've had so many annoying problems with the old VW transmission going into reverse instead of 2nd that I might just finally use the controller's reverse motor direction and position the reverse lockout shifter plate to completely bypass it.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

Things are looking good, can't wait till mine is at that point.....


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I'm waiting on a programmer rental to arrive, since the Curtis stuff is proprietary. 

I've had time to really dive into the specs of the AC-20, and the continuous current doesn't really look like it's going to be capable of _continuous_ highway speeds with my vehicle. This particular motor didn't come with the stock fan and had a pretty strong (electric) axial bladed cooling fan. I'm looking at using my squirrel cage bilge blower, since they tend to be a little better at creating pressure. I did a quick mock up baffle, and it seemed to push air through decently... at least better than the ME1003 got with my radiator fan. The bilge blower still hits a major obstruction blowing through all of the components on the inside.

I'm thinking about doing a copper coil liquid cooling wrap around the case of the motor. I would use thermal heat sink glue to improve contact of the copper with the case. I know the stator isn't quite flush with the casing, but I figure a nice liquid pump around the case would reduce heat-soak and improve continuous power handling somewhat. I'd be happy with something that could sustain 65 mph.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm definitely in the same boat as you are - I just pulled my vehicle out yesterday and it is just not quite there performance wise with the ME1003. I'm still planning on switching to the lithium first to see if 90V and 300lbs of weight savings helps it out... if not I'll probably go with a Warp 8 or 9.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

dain254 said:


> I'm definitely in the same boat as you are - I just pulled my vehicle out yesterday and it is just not quite there performance wise with the ME1003. I'm still planning on switching to the lithium first to see if 90V and 300lbs of weight savings helps it out... if not I'll probably go with a Warp 8 or 9.


Are you looking to try doubling up motors and controllers? I'd let go of my ME1003 motor & SPM72400 controller combo with USB programming cable for $850 shipped if you're in the lower 48 USA. That would bring your continuous power up to about 28 kW or so. Otherwise, I think Thunderstruck is selling an older model used Warp 9 and 144v 500A Curtis controller with heatsink for $1500 + shipping right now. I believe the older Warp 9 had a rear auxiliary shaft that was the same size & keyway as your ME1003 motor, so you wouldn't have to swap sprockets.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

Doubling motors and controllers is not something I am even going to consider since there are components available that meet the performance goals. The price you are asking is certainly fair though, I don't think you will have much trouble selling it. 

I'm planning on buying the 120V Kelly 400A (KDZ12400) and their "assembly" which should lead to less fires when wiring up the contactors for reverse. I'm going to run 90V to the ME1003 and see if dropping my vehicle weight to 700lbs from 1100lbs lets it survive at the higher power. It should pull 36kw for a few seconds i'd think... still only need 8-10kw continuous for driving around

Switching to a Warp 8 will require redesigning the rear of the vehicle, which I will do if necessary... I'll change my batteries to the full 120V giving me 48kw through the warp 8 or 9... maybe a 7 if i can get by with it!


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

That Kelly controller isn't much more powerful than your AXE-7245. Your current one is good for 200A continuous. The kelly is good for 160A. Unless you are doing much higher voltage, which you said you arent, that would probably be a downgrade in performance unless you added on a liquid cooling setup to the Kelly. Remember, amps = torque. The only thing voltage does for you is raise top speed and keep the torque going higher into the RPM band.

The ME1003 shouldn't really be put on much more than 96v.

I know it's nice having things pre wired, but people are more than happy to help you figure out reverse contactor wiring. I just don't want you wasting your money. The batteries will help with less voltage sag and less weight for sure, but I'd be hesitant buying the lower continuous current rated controller.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

It has been mentioned many times here that when you go Kelly you better get double the current rating. They have been notorious for falling way short of spec numbers.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm not doing much higher in voltage - but some, 90V. My continuous current only needs to be around 100A so taking a hit there is not a big concern. 

I'm not using any contactors at the moment... key switch to turn the controller on and a big mechanical switch to throw power to it. If all controllers need these items why wouldn't the manufacturer simply build it into the controller? At this point I may as well convert it to a gas engine and go back to the drawing board for an EV that is a lot lighter, more aerodynamic, and uses cheaper components.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

dain254 said:


> I'm not doing much higher in voltage - but some, 90V. My continuous current only needs to be around 100A so taking a hit there is not a big concern.
> 
> I'm not using any contactors at the moment... key switch to turn the controller on and a big mechanical switch to throw power to it. If all controllers need these items why wouldn't the manufacturer simply build it into the controller? At this point I may as well convert it to a gas engine and go back to the drawing board for an EV that is a lot lighter, more aerodynamic, and uses cheaper components.


A contactor is really the same thing as a big mechanical switch, only activated by the controller to disengage in an emergency.

A contactor is a big relay, nothing more. A (cheap) precharge resistor is used to get the controller's capacitors charged before engaging your massive switch (contactor). When you don't do that, connecting from zero volts makes them take a massive inrush current which can shorten the life of the caps and damage the switch/contactor.

You ask good questions. Some controllers come with internal contactors and precharge circuits built in. Not all. Complain to the manufacturers, but they probably wanted "wear" items to be outside of their products to minimize liability.

Based on your motor setup, you have absolutely no reason to go with that Kelly. A simple reversing contactor setup can be done with your current controller, which has similar if not better power output than the controller you were looking at purchasing. I realize having a pre-made assembly makes it easy, but that is a terrible motivation for that purchase. Don't waste you're money on something that won't be a significant improvement.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

The Kelly controller can handle nearly 50 more volts than the Alltrax, where in a lithium setup I will be at 90V - this is the advantage of it. I know I can also get $300-400 from my 72450 from eBay, so changing to the Kelly is only a $100 cost up at most. THEN I add the assembly for $250 and get reverse, contactor, precharge, all that BS wired correctly! 

The controller can handle 400A at 120V ~ 48kw of power max. Alltrax can do 450 @72V, so 32.4kw. With the drop in weight and a slight boost in voltage to the motor I believe the performance increase actually will be significant. AND I don't have to redesign the rear half of the vehicle. I will also gear lower to compensate for higher voltage and higher RPM which will ALSO give me more torque off the line. Could be wrong... if so I still haven't wasted all that much money.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

dain254 said:


> The Kelly controller can handle nearly 50 more volts than the Alltrax, where in a lithium setup I will be at 90V - this is the advantage of it. I know I can also get $300-400 from my 72450 from eBay, so changing to the Kelly is only a $100 cost up at most. THEN I add the assembly for $250 and get reverse, contactor, precharge, all that BS wired correctly!
> 
> The controller can handle 400A at 120V ~ 48kw of power max. Alltrax can do 450 @72V, so 32.4kw. With the drop in weight and a slight boost in voltage to the motor I believe the performance increase actually will be significant. AND I don't have to redesign the rear half of the vehicle. I will also gear lower to compensate for higher voltage and higher RPM which will ALSO give me more torque off the line. Could be wrong... if so I still haven't wasted all that much money.



"Handle"

Once again, you're talking peak values which aren't very useful. You want to know what you can actually _keep_ doing_,_ not just burst of speed for 1 minute from a cold start. I gave you the continuous ratings, which your controller is similar if not better than the kelly. The peak ratings only matter to you if you're doing some amazing cooling on it to make it last, which drives up the cost indirectly through peripheral cooling pumps/radiators/fans.

That's the point. I _don't_ want you to waste money. You can't utilize the max voltage of the kelly on the ME1003, so it's limited to only marginally higher voltage than the peak (90v) alltrax rating at a lower continuous current (torque) output.

I feel like this is going on a tangent from the original thread, but seriously... make a thread and we'll show you how to hook up any generic DC controller to a reversing contactor setup with proper precharge resistor. If you GENUINELY want to go with Kelly and their premade assembly, get their controller that does higher continuous current handling or you will be disappointed!

​


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Still waiting on the programmer.

New fuse holder came in, and new hall throttle strictly for regen control.

Ordered more LiCoO2 LIPO batteries again. I'm limited to 10 per shipment. At minimum, I plan to bring my pack up to 88.8v nominal. More than likely, I will opt for another after that set after that to get my nominal voltage up to 103.6v (117.6v peak charge).

Doing this would bring me to 9.3 kWh in a 1000 pound car, which I think should give me excellent range. Total pack weight will only be 146 lbs, and voltage sag is almost negligible compared to LiFePO4 packs.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jay, I've seen a few setups like this with the controller and chill plate mounted directly onto the top of the motor but spaced to prevent much heat transfer. Might be a smart option, could use the aluminium angle you have for that. No vibrations from an ev motor remember.



New setup is looking really strong. I think you'll find you manage well with that setup if you sort out the motor cooling.


Tyler


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Jay, I've seen a few setups like this with the controller and chill plate mounted directly onto the top of the motor but spaced to prevent much heat transfer. Might be a smart option, could use the aluminium angle you have for that. No vibrations from an ev motor remember.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're referring to this mounting plate:
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=227

My cooling plate I have has ports out the bottom rather than the side, so it probably wouldn't have enough clearance. Trust me, I considered it.

I just found out there was a mix-up in shipping the Curtis programmer (my fault), so I'm trying to work out getting it shipped to the proper address. Paypal defaulted to my old address, so that little oversight is keeping me from driving this thing now.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

The Curtis USB programmer arrived... but now I need to make a plug to connect to it because mine had been removed from the harness.

Does anyone know the proper pinout of the 4-pin transfer cable? I'm assuming the harness wires required are +12V, GND, serial TX, and serial RX. I just wanted to confirm the correct order on the plug I will be making.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yeah, I posted that for another member a few months back. I can't search on this device. Look for Molex or Mini-fit. If we don't locate that post, I can always read it off the adapter. 

Later, 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Here's that thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165513&highlight=curtis+spyglass


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I had to manually connect pins to the programmer plug because I had no female 4-pin connectors in my computer supply bin. Here's what diagram worked for me if anyone else ends up with a hacked up wiring harness:










I almost connected everything reversed at first, so pay attention to the SHAPE of the plastic plugs to make sure you're oriented ok. Most people won't have to deal with this crap and already have a plug that they can connect to...


Next problem I had to tackle: Curtis actually gave me the wrong information. I asked them if something was correct, they said it was, and it turned out wrong.

If anyone is doing a 0-5v hall throttle on a Curtis 1238, the correct wiring is:

Pedal High (5v reference) of throttle goes to PIN 26
Pedal Signal goes to the "Throttle Pot Wiper" PIN 16
Pedal GND of the throttle goes to the I/O GND PIN 7

Then, in settings, you must adjust the deadband to ensure it isn't moving at baseline and adjust the setting to ensure it reaches full throttle when the pedal is all the way down.


*First Test Drive*: I ghetto wired it temporarily just to gauge throttle response and see if that needed tweaking. First thing I noticed. With the old Alltrax setup, my idle current consumption was 1-2A. Now it is 4-5A. I realize this controller actually supplies my 5v signal and aux 12v if needed, but this seems abnormally high. I'm only just starting to dive into settings though, so please let me know if this is abnormal for HPEVS owners.

First big difference... holy hell, the redline. First gear definitely lacks that initial punch of torque that I used to have, but it ramps up just like a little turbo. The ME1003 would blast to 15 mph and putter out quickly, while the AC-20 more softly pulls off the line and then continues to build speed. When the ME1003 is done, the AC-20 is just getting started. I only tested it with a pack voltage sitting at around 76v, and I was EASILY able to do 40 mph in first gear... and it pulled very nicely up to that speed. Reminded me of the way my friend's old 78' Porsche naturally aspirated 911sc pulled. I don't have fan cooling yet on my motor because I'm missing a fan baffle mount, so I had to keep the rides short. I'm 100% certain 2nd gear can take me to 60 mph even with my current 74v nominal battery pack. I doubt I will be using third much, but we'll see.

Second big difference... the noise. I almost miss the futuristic whine of the ME1003, but those who enjoy a quiet ride will definitely appreciate the quieter cruise.

Next up... adjusting dedicated REGEN pedal!


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I've been trying to wrap my brain around why the top end pull is so good while only having a 74v pack.

Based on the HPEVS's dyno graphs, I was expecting torque to fall off far earlier than it is. Then it hit me... my batteries are better.

My 74v LIPO pack behaves like the HPEVS 96v graph. At peak battery amps, their 96v graph sags all the way down to about 75v! When I did my test drive, my pack was around 76v and only dropped to 74v at peak acceleration. I'm basically getting a full 1000 RPM more of peak torque than I initially expected thanks to 90AH worth of 20C LIPO running at 7.2C.

Voltage sag from crappy batteries crushes top end performance.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

There wasn't a pin installed in the harness for the brake's throttle wiper.

I pulled out one of the other pins from an unused port on the Curtis 1238, but I'm having trouble getting it into the new hole. Is there a trick to getting these pins in the harness that I'm missing?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yeah, I hate those Ampseal plugs. They always give me a hard time. You do a Google picture search? Good luck. 

http://en.youscribe.com/catalogue/e...ion-ampseal-automotive-plug-connector-1714732 
Maybe that will help. 
major


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

It was annoying, but I got it. Getting the worn pins to stay straight while putting the thing back together was also fun 

I wired up my second hall throttle pedal to my newly installed "Pot 2" wiper lead. The 5v and ground went to the same connections as the accelerator throttle. I got to work tweaking the initial programming settings.

First test, I hit max regen in first gear, and it stopped pretty hard. I actually think it skid to a stop at the end. I'm not sure what is an acceptable rate I can put back into my LIPO batteries, but I'm hesitant to frequently burst 200A back into 90AH worth of cells. I like that I could practically use the thing as an emergency brake in the event of mechanical brake failure, but wouldn't want to rely on it. It's just nice to have an extra option.

I'm definitely thinking the A/C setup is less efficient because of the stand-by power consumption. The controller is consuming some 350 watts just sitting there doing nothing while on. I can't see regen making up for that.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I don't think you have to worry about limiting regen rates for the battery's sake unless it overheats. And unless you fully charge at the top of a hill, you can't overcharge with regen. The high C-rate regen will mostly be of short duration, so I don't think the normal charge rate specification applies. 

I'm speaking from experience with several different battery types and study of Lithium battery tests for use in hybrid applications where strong regen is used. This has not included hobby Lipo like you are using. I am pretty sure if high rate regen is detremental it will show up as elevated temperature. 

The controllers I've used, including the 1238 IIRC, have settings which limit voltage on regen by ramping down torque as the HVC is approached. This can mean the first few stops after a full charge won't have full regen available so it is necessary to keep the service brakes fully functional. 

major


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The 350 W draw is a bit of a surprise- will have to verify that on my setup. A DC controller has to have some off state draw too, but the 350 W figure seems excessive- the calcs I did related to the cooling of the unit suggest it isn't putting that much into the heat sink. I definitely regen more than 0.35 kWh in an hour's driving.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> The 350 W draw is a bit of a surprise- will have to verify that on my setup. A DC controller has to have some off state draw too, but the 350 W figure seems excessive- the calcs I did related to the cooling of the unit suggest it isn't putting that much into the heat sink. I definitely regen more than 0.35 kWh in an hour's driving.


Well, simply swapped motors and controllers. I went from 0.8-1.2A idle pack consumption with the old controller to 4-5A. 4A * 74v = 296w minimum. The controller's monitoring software confirms it's about that as well. I realize REGEN more than makes up for that loss; I was able to net back 500 Wh doing a short drive around the neighborhood with aggressive regen braking. However, we're doing a comparison between motors and controllers of a completely different type, and it's hundreds of watts more power wasted just sitting there between the two. I haven't directly compared cruising amps, I'll report back. The improvement in acceleration alone is already worth it though 


*I just discovered something very important.* For those who are using active fan cooling on their HPEVS AC motors (of any type) and not using the stock mechanical fan, you might want to think about your fan orientation. I managed to get the motor temp up to about 80C for this test. I put a bilge blower on the back and blew into the motor, and the motor temps dropped some 10-15C within a few seconds. I knew that was impossible, so I took the fan off. I watched the temps rise right back up to 78C within about 30-45 seconds. I blew in again, and watched the temps drop. Then, I _reversed_ the blower so it was sucking out the back of the motor. The temps rose back even faster because it pulled the motor heat towards the sensor.

*Conclusion: Suck air out the back of the motor if you want your temp monitoring to be accurate on the controller. Otherwise, it reads unrealistically low. Depending on the overhead of the settings you have dialed in, you could be cooking your motor while Curtis thinks everything's fine.*


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Idle current*

The ACIM system supplies magnetizing current even at zero torque or speed command. This is similar to field current on a SepEx system. PM motors don't need this. There are ways to reduce or eliminate this. I don't recall if Curtis has an energy saving setting. Some inverters do. You don't want to turn off the controller during idle time and have to reboot/precharge all over when starting again. But you might try removing the forward run command. That might turn off the magnetizing current but leave the system ready to go. I don't have an operational system to try. Last systems of this type I used were on racers and we didn't idle much.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

*Re: Idle current*



major said:


> The ACIM system supplies magnetizing current even at zero torque or speed command. This is similar to field current on a SepEx system. PM motors don't need this. There are ways to reduce or eliminate this. I don't recall if Curtis has an energy saving setting. Some inverters do. You don't want to turn off the controller during idle time and have to reboot/precharge all over when starting again. But you might try removing the forward run command. That might turn off the magnetizing current but leave the system ready to go. I don't have an operational system to try. Last systems of this type I used were on racers and we didn't idle much.


I figured it was for energizing the the fields given the lack of heat in the controller. I don't have the software handy at the moment. I just know I set it to not forward creep (no idle forward function) and has no neutral braking. I don't remember seeing anything called forward run. I guess I'll recheck in the morning.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Forward run*

Forward run command is normally set up as switch 7 / pin 22. It may be wired to the keyswitch in your case.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I purchased the stock mechanical fan for the motor, and it's on the way. I think I'm going to wrap the motor exterior in copper refrigerant cooling pipe and pump a water+glycol mix through it. I hope the two working together will allow me to maintain 65 mph.

I was initially hesitant, but I've made the decision to increase my pack size to 28S @ 90AH. That will be ~116v peak charge, 103.6v nominal. Total: 9.324 kWh. The extra voltage should make for a nice horsepower increase in the upper RPM band, though no extra torque. Given the minimal voltage sag, I am thinking I might have over 75 peak horsepower in this tiny car.

The batteries I normally use are back-ordered. I need about 20 more of them to complete this monster.

To accompany the new pack, I found a used 2000w 110v lithium charger on ebay for $200. End of charge voltage should put each cell at ~4.17v each.

I've held off on posting video of the new motor with the low pack voltage. I'd rather show its full potential


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

My 1238 AC50 draws about 1.5 A at 106 V in the idle state, and that includes feeding my DC/DC etc., so well below your measured 350 W


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Right in time for the season where I can enjoy this thing, the batteries I have been using went out of stock. I have been waiting a bit, but I can't wait anymore.

So... I bought something temporary to get me through until they are in stock:










That's 16AH 4S (14.8v) 10C rated LIPO. The Multistar batteries were only $50 a pop on sale. Amazing deal. I bought 12. I'll be wiring 6 in parallel to get 96 AH, 2 sets of them in series with my main pack (90AH 74v) pack.

At 650A peak discharge from the controller, the new cells will take on a 6.7C load or 108A. The connectors are XT90, which are good for 90A continuous duty and peak of 120A. It's within spec, and I don't plan on doing peak duty for long periods of time anyway.

Yes, I know that mixing battery sizes is poor practice, but as long as you're careful, it can work just fine. You just have to be conscious of the lowest capacity cell in series with the pack, which would be the hard-case cells. Charging in series requires more caution as well, as there is risk to over-charge smaller cells. This can be averted the same way as anyone does with a pack that has an under-performing cell: charge to the lowest capacity you're working with.

Next to the hardcase packs I have been using for size comparison:

















Just one of the green batteries is over 3x the capacity of the $25 hard case packs. The main difference is 10C vs 20C discharge ratings, so I expect a bit more voltage sag from these.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I went to go hook up my ebay charger, and it's throwing a fault code. It's a Grasen charger. Specifically, this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311369753252?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I had difficulty finding the manual online online, but I found a similar model's manual: http://engrasenpower.booea.com.cn/templates/default/download/On-board Charger---GSCH-4000B.pdf

It's blinking 6 RED, 1 GREEN... which just vaguely says "check the communication connecting wire". Other than the main charge cable, it's just 2 little wires for CAN-bus, but I'm not even using it. I don't really know what to do here... any ideas?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Just a WAG. Try a termination resistor on the CANbus leads. Reset by disconnecting mains and battery.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

major said:


> Just a WAG. Try a termination resistor on the CANbus leads. Reset by disconnecting mains and battery.



I did some research, and it seems like people use 120 Ohm to terminate the CAN bus leads. That what you recommend? it's just 2 wires, and I left them open circuit like how i received it in shipment. they were just 2 stripped wires...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Jay,

Kinda out of my speciality area. But I've seen where team members have needed to do it. So, WTH, won't hurt to try. 

major


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Thanks for the fast reply Major. The ebay seller didn't know how to get it working, so the CAN termination sounds like the only option at the moment. The manufacturer website was worthless.

I'm sitting here with with the car ready to test drive. All the cells are sitting at 3.7v, so this charger is the only thing holding me back right now. I'm excited to see what the extra horsepower feels like.

My old 84v charger from BMSbattery is the wrong voltage, and I don't think even the people who modified theirs were able to get it to 113v like I need.


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

Long overdue update. Life's been crazy getting used to a new house purchase and everything that comes along with that.

I scrounged up enough spare batteries (barely) to do a 28S pack. As a reminder, this is LiCoO2 LIPO. This means an absolute peak pack voltage of 117.6v and a nominal voltage of 103.6v. 

One other obstacle to overcome was the programmer. I got a cheap knock-off programmer that required windows XP so I wouldn't have to pay the outrageous amount for curtis programming software. After some tweaking, got that working. The new 1500w charger came in around the same time. 

I was running 74v nominal before. I took it out with the new pack at ~110v and test drove it: 

NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE. It pulls hard in first gear up to 45. It starts decently even in 2nd gear, and I ripped it up to 70 mph up hill! I did 10 miles of punishing acceleration driving with a stock passive motor fan, and I haven't hit thermal cutback yet. 2 minutes after parking the car, the motor was reading 84C.

I still haven't run coolant lines to the controller yet, but I can only imagine things getting better.


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## MrDude_1 (Oct 14, 2009)

Well that is some awesome news.
I cant wait to see video of the change in performance.


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## BuildMore (Oct 28, 2016)

So...what happened, mate? I dig your thread(s) and I'm looking forward to the culmination of all this great work...


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

BuildMore said:


> So...what happened, mate? I dig your thread(s) and I'm looking forward to the culmination of all this great work...



I'll be honest, I totally forgot to follow up on this thread with the videos. I get caught up with different projects and forget sometimes. I took some initial videos on my phone, but they don't do it justice. Here's a crappy first person view shot I had lying on my phone... low state of charge after driving it around with no extra heatsinking on the controller:






I will film some objective videos showing acceleration in different gears from a roll and stand-still when I'm done with my stretch of work. Video will be posted by the end of next week. Sorry to leave everyone hanging so long!


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

I went out the other day and did a quick set of runs. My on dash camera didn't end up recording because the memory card was full 

Oh well! Here's what we have.

Just took it to the recycling yard today. Total vehicle weight: 1240 lb, heavier than I thought!

https://youtu.be/W7qHHbTEPa0


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