# Motor A or B?



## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Question has been answered, most people have said the brushes may be better in Motor A but with Motor B being half the price to go with that one.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Careful. How much brush is left in motor B? I can see the top of the brushes is motor A, but not in B. And the braided pigtails appear possibly to be stretched indicating a short length of brush remaining. 
Also, make sure all (each) brush(es) slide smoothly in the holder.

Good luck,

major


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Major, you have a great eye and some one on Facebook mentioned this as well. I got a better picture of the comm and it definitely has grooves and pits from either arcing or low brushes. Bummed because it was only $200. Decided to pass though.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Motor A was just purchased! So excited to have the heart to my truck. Will start a build thread once I’ve completed de-ice. Going to play around with modded transfer cases as single speed gear boxes.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Well I was bamboozled by the seller. Motor A just arrived and it is in horrible condition compared to the photos. Whoever got Motor B congrats.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> Well I was bamboozled by the seller. Motor A just arrived and it is in horrible condition compared to the photos. Whoever got Motor B congrats.


Most people would be flabbergasted with the terrible grody disgustingly filthy condition of some of these motors yet they perform perfectly well. I suggest you snap some photos and describe what bothers you. Then develop a plan to do some initial tests, disassemble and clean the sucker. Avoid commutator surface contamination, even fingerprints. Unless it needs reconditioning, leave it as is.

I've seen forklift motors so full of gunk you'd think they could not possibly even rotate, yet still running. Especially air cooled, they sit inches off the factory or warehouse floor and can go decades without service.
Regards,
major


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Major, thanks for the encouragement! Reconditioning is what I was going to come here to seek help with. Seller issued full refund, but allowed me to keep the motor. The comm on this motor is of concern. What is the recondition process? Also what would you recommend for rust removal and freshening up of the internals? Here is a pic of what I essentially got for free. Was considering getting another and keeping this as a back up or for mock ups. Thanks for any input! I have browsed through the sticky.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I can't open your picture but the thumbnail looks OK to me

I suggest taking it apart - mine was very heavy and I think I damaged the rotor so I suggest standing it on it's tail and taking it apart vertically

Rust and gunk does not matter too much - EXCEPT on the brush holders and the comm

New bearings are cheap 

Brushes and brush holders - this is where rust and gunk can cause problems

Major has terrified me into keeping ignorant paws off the comm

The brushes need to be able to slide - and to be long enough and in good nick

I suspect that you have probably got a good if scruffy motor for a record low price


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Duncan and Major, I have decided to use this motor if possible. What are the dangers of touching the commutator? I can’t recall if I had gloves on when I was checking everything out at first. The comm is slightly pitted and covered in dust/gunk. I would like to completely refresh it. Is my only option throwing it on a lathe with sand paper? Everything else on the motor is rusted. And I mean everything. What is the safest way to clean everything once taken apart? I’ve read a lot and watched a few videos but would like to know what you guys think directly in regards to this motor. Lastly should I clean first or throw 12v at it first to see if it starts? Thank you and below are better pics.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Loooool.

The seller took the most flattering picture possible of that motor. Move the camera an inch in any direction and the rust that blankets the rest of the motor would've been visible.

At first I thought perhaps they overreacted by refunding you, but, seeing your pic now... they knew what they tried to pull


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Loooool.
> 
> The seller took the most flattering picture possible of that motor. Move the camera an inch in any direction and the rust that blankets the rest of the motor would've been visible.
> 
> At first I thought perhaps they overreacted by refunding you, but, seeing your pic now... they knew what they tried to pull


I know haha. They were completely understanding and actually have another of the same but not rusted motor I could get with the refund and have 2 motors.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Use Google to find articles:
DC motor commutator care and service

Here's a 5 page file particularly relevant: 
Proper Maintenance and Upkeep 
in DC Motor Units
By Roly Roberge
Design and Application Engineer Manager

Thru Morgan, aka Morganite, a long time carbon company. 

Re. Touching the comm. Wear clean white cotton gloves. No reason to contact it with bare skin. Nothing good happens. And you can't avoid leaving fingerprints (oil) and other crap. A proper comm film is worth its weight in gold. Actually a very good reason to buy a used motor. Only remove it if absolutely necessary. In an EVcar, it'll take years to re-establish. Even with a 100 hour break-in. Without a proper film, there will be high friction, high voltage drop, rapid brush wear, possible dusting, thermal trouble, copper drag, comm distortion, etc. 
Regards,
major


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

major said:


> Use Google to find articles:
> DC motor commutator care and service
> 
> Here's a 5 page file particularly relevant:
> ...


Major thanks for the article just read it and saved to my phone notes. So even thought it’s pitted, gunked up, and perhaps has a finger print or two, my best bet is to just vacuum/dust removal and leave it at that because of the film it’s built up? I plan on replacing the brushes because of a few being frayed. Is this okay without messing with the comm? A YouTube video said to clean the comm with terminal/contact cleaner. Lastly is 75% Isopropyl ok for cleaning everything else?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Just seen your later pictures - still can't open the other one

To be honest it looks pretty damn good to me! - it looks a lot better than the one that is in my car just now

One question I would ask - are you sure it's a series motor? - have a look at the field coils should see what is effectively copper bars as the windings - if it looks like copper wire it will be a SepEx - not as easy to get a controller

I would be very tempted to do the 12v battery test - you will feel much happier about it after you have given it a spin
Do this on the floor - and be prepared for it to kick - don't let it bite you or jump off the bench


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Duncan said:


> Just seen your later pictures - still can't open the other one
> 
> To be honest it looks pretty damn good to me! - it looks a lot better than the one that is in my car just now
> 
> ...


I am 99.9% sure it is a series motor. Only doubt .1% because you asked haha. It has been used in two other builds and jefsmk who has been posting in the motor stickie has the same motor. Terminal lugs all the same size, labeled A1-2 S1-2, big bars coming from the S1 and S2 terminals. Part number is Clark #2774337/5BT1362B144. 

As for applying 12v, it is safe to do so even with the motor being caked with grime on the inside? I am eager to test it, but don’t want to deep clean it quite yet. Want replacement parts/bolts available when I do that. 

For the comm, can I at least wipe it down? 

Also already have the controller for this motor. Using a EVnetics Soliton Jr. that I purchased super cheap with billet throttle and 2/0 AWG hydraulic crimpers. 

Thanks!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> .
> 
> For the comm, can I at least wipe it down?


Major is the expert and he normally say leave it alone!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Major is the expert and he normally say leave it alone!


Use your head. If there's a glob of bird sh!t on the comm, wipe it off with a dry rag. If there's something crusty which would make the brush bounce, scrape it off using a hardwood stick like a tounge depresser. If it's worse, buy a seating stone. But try to let the brushes do their job of wiping the comm. 

major


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

major said:


> Duncan said:
> 
> 
> > Major is the expert and he normally say leave it alone!
> ...


Thank you! This is what I thought, but wanted to make sure. Everyone seems to have a different practice on YouTube/Google but with the same general out come if they need to clean and resurface. I will update this thread with pics and videos of the motors progress before starting a build thread.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Quick question about reverse contactor wiring. I would like to use a SW202 with my EVnetics controller. Below are two diagrams. The EVnetics controller has the two terminals for motor. I know I would run S1/S2 as pictured in the SW202 diagram and A1 as pictured in the EVnetics diagram, but would A2 run to the SW202 as I have marked in red and then from the circled terminal back to the other EVnetics post? Sorry if this is a dumb question.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Pretty sure this answers my question but feedback still appreciated. Based on this A1 would go to the other controller terminal correct?


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

Finally got that fan off the motor, now to finish drawing it up, and designing my mount and new front bearing. Was a tight fit on the shaft, I thought the whole fan was going to shatter (it's aluminum I think) as I was removing.


























What did you find on that front bearing? Is it metric? What about your rear bearing, are you replacing that? Where did you get the brushes, have a chance to install yet? Have you ran the motor?

Edit: ok the rear bearing had the part number stamped right on it. It's a Fafnir 306PP. As I suspected, a 30mm ID bearing. 72 mm OD and doubled sealed. FYI. See this thing for like $60 at Grainger, which seems crazy, gonna find another source.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

jefsmk said:


> Finally got that fan off the motor, now to finish drawing it up, and designing my mount and new front bearing. Was a tight fit on the shaft, I thought the whole fan was going to shatter (it's aluminum I think) as I was removing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow I thought the fan was plastic or composite of some sort! If it’s aluminum that’s better for what I’m going to do (better cooling). I have yet to disassemble my motor as I want to clean it and paint it the same day. As for bearings, I have both ordered. $33 total. The front is a 6209 (I believe 45mmx85mmx19mm) and the rear is a 6306 like you stated. I realized not all sealed bearings are made equal. look for SKF or NSK brand. I’ve read bearings with a c3 rating are better for this set up. I unfortunately only ordered the front in c3 the rear bearing is c0 I believe like stock. Both are rated at higher rpm than stock though 6600 vs 4900 rpm. Brushes will be here tomorrow. If both sets match I could sell you the spare set. How would you recommend cleaning this thing? I may try lectra motive cleaner as mine is gunked.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I would recommend NOT doing much cleaning - you are far more likely to screw things up than to help


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

Duncan said:


> I would recommend NOT doing much cleaning - you are far more likely to screw things up than to help


No cleaning? Even for this portion for example?

http://smeker.org/images/IMG_20200228_204302.jpg


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Just blow off the loose stuff with an airline and you are good to go


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Duncan said:


> I would recommend NOT doing much cleaning - you are far more likely to screw things up than to help


My motor is caked in oil, brake dust, and rust. At least a few mm thick of a layer on everything. I can’t imagine it’s ok to leave it as is. Whatever this was hooked up to had oil leak through the seal. I’ve searched everywhere and can’t find anything solid on cleaning, re-applying insulation etc. any info appreciated. 

Below are part numbers for things I’ve ordered:
Rear bearing GBC 6306-88-30E
Front bearing SKF 6209 2RSJEM
Brush set 1811467
Brush set CL907059

Edit: My motor is 5x worse than this one. I’ll get pictures later.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Both sets of brushes came in, one part number must be for the kit that has springs and the other just the four brushes. Based on the old brushes, easily 1/3 maybe more is gone. Decided I am upgrading/replacing every bolt and cable that I can. A motor machine shop said they could do the necessary machine work. 

Ordered a 1310 yoke for the drive shaft end, and reversing contactor. Refreshing the motor housing this weekend. Rebuilding it next week.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re cleaning and re-insulating

The problem is that if you want to re-insulate you really need to get not "clean" but much better than that
My experience (with other things) is that if you "paint" something the preparation is critical

When your motor was made many years ago it will have been incredibly clean before it was dipped - I don't think you (or I) can duplicate that

A bit of dirt on the surface is cosmetic - damaging the insulation layer by trying to clean it off is NOT "cosmetic"

Be careful when cleaning and IMHO it's better to err on the dirty side rather than damage the insulation

I am overvolting and over currenting my own motor a tadge


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Duncan said:


> Re cleaning and re-insulating
> 
> The problem is that if you want to re-insulate you really need to get not "clean" but much better than that
> My experience (with other things) is that if you "paint" something the preparation is critical
> ...


I get that, and understand the risk. Some risk may need to be taken here though, and I’d like to know a proper process or I’ll pay a motor shop to do it. Nothing is impossible. The amount of grime will cause the motor to overheat at the very least if it’s not addressed. Chances are my insulating properties have already been compromised. It appears that oil leaked through the front seal. I wanted a new motor for this reason but oh well. Though this is my first EV, I’ve built many cars in the past and have maybe developed an OCD/pride with how they turn out mechanically and aesthetically.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

If you bound and determined to clean it, I suggest a many pass process with a water based automotive degreaser, taking off a wee bit every time with a careful and judicious examination thereafter. Definitely not a one pass clean with much rubbing/scrubbing. An ultrasonic cleaning comes to mind. Too agressive and it will need a rewind.

My $0.02, YMMV.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

piotrsko said:


> If you bound and determined to clean it, I suggest a many pass process with a water based automotive degreaser, taking off a wee bit every time with a careful and judicious examination thereafter. Definitely not a one pass clean with much rubbing/scrubbing. An ultrasonic cleaning comes to mind. Too agressive and it will need a rewind.
> 
> My $0.02, YMMV.


Thank you for feedback! If I can get away with just removing the spots heavily contaminated with oil for now, I will be happy. Just having a large amount of oil around potential sparks, as well as heat build up, makes me nervous. The housing will be completely refurbished no matter what and the brush cables will be updated. Pics to come. I just have to finish one of my other projects today to make room.


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## jefsmk (Dec 12, 2019)

skweeks_n_leeks said:


> Both sets of brushes came in, one part number must be for the kit that has springs and the other just the four brushes. Based on the old brushes, easily 1/3 maybe more is gone. Decided I am upgrading/replacing every bolt and cable that I can. A motor machine shop said they could do the necessary machine work.
> 
> Ordered a 1310 yoke for the drive shaft end, and reversing contactor. Refreshing the motor housing this weekend. Rebuilding it next week.


Hey, where did you get those brushes from? Searching the part numbers you listed bring up images that are not exactly the same. Any info?


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

jefsmk said:


> skweeks_n_leeks said:
> 
> 
> > Both sets of brushes came in, one part number must be for the kit that has springs and the other just the four brushes. Based on the old brushes, easily 1/3 maybe more is gone. Decided I am upgrading/replacing every bolt and cable that I can. A motor machine shop said they could do the necessary machine work.
> ...


I will sell you a set if you’d like but if you search 1811467 on eBay that’s the kit with the springs. I got two sets of brushes and one set of springs for $100. 

Below is a pic of what I’ve read is the best products to use for light degreasing.

Edit: Both brushes seem better quality than the ones in my motor. One pair is different in the copper wire connect but that is it. Those are the ones I will be using. Same dimensions and everything.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Last update on this thread before starting my official build thread. Thanks to a couple of members on here, I was able to score everything for my F150 conversion for way under the budget. Only batteries left, and I don’t think I will break $2k total. Below are pictures of the bearings, brushes, and cable that I am using to freshen up this motor. As well as, what my drive end adapter will be.


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## skweeks_n_leeks (Dec 29, 2019)

Ok I lied, this is the last post I figured would be relevant to this thread. This thing was a pain to disassemble. And as expected oil dirt grime mix everywhere. This will be fun restoring to glory! Also, will be posting for sale adds shortly passing on savings I acquired on parts like fuses I’ve got in bulk while building.


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