# Looking to Create EVs out of Classics



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Hi and welcome.
Do you have any experience with restoring cars and the cost involved?

Doing a restoration PLUS an EV conversion will put the price up where sales will be minimal.

I suggest that you do a conversion to a regular car and see how saleable it is and how well it performs for the money spent.

I have been in the restoration business for many years and the prices are much higher even in the last 5 years.

Good luck on your plan, just research it well.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's a great dream. The old mustang is a great car in that it is fairly light for a car of that era, many were made, and you could probably build a new one from parts you can buy.

It's probably going to be tough to do well with a hybrid of your own design -- even the automakers' hybrids would generally get the same fuel economy if you took the electric stuff out. My vote would be it is better to make a pure EV, and use a gas car for long trips.

AC Propulsion had a generator trailer that worked pretty well. Google on "EV pusher trailer" to see a clever range extender using the front part of a front wheel driver car.


jMedia said:


> Hello everyone, I am new(ish) to EVs but I am in love with them.
> My dream is to salvage old cars and make them into EVs (or series hybrids)
> 
> The car I would most like to convert would be a 1966 Mustang. But I am also interested in RangeExtenders/Series Hybrids. Has anyone on here had any luck with a range extender?
> ...


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for the responses! 
I do have SOME experience in restoring cars, I've done body work and I have mechanical skills. It's an industry I want to get into tho and finishing up my environmental engineering degree at school right now made me want to go electric.

Ya I thought the first gen mustang would be a decent candidate for conversion cause it's light in comparison to other old cars.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Based on my observations, the best way to make money in either car restoration or EV conversions isn't to buy, convert/restore and sell. It is to charge billable hours to convert or restore the cars people bring to you, and to sell the parts. You may occasionally end up with a complete car to sell if somebody defaults on their bills or sells you one cheap because they know you are in the business, but that would be a secondary thing.

I know a couple of people in the local area that have this basic model and it is working for them. They aren't getting rich, but they are making a respectable living doing something they love.

Good luck.


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

Sorry if my intentions got misconstrued, I don't really intend to do this as a living or anything like that(initially). I would want to do it just to do it, if I were to end up selling the car and breaking even that would be fine, I just like working with cars.

If I were doing it for profit, I especially wouldnt expect to make a profit on my first car


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

That should be a pretty neat project. From what I've read the conversion itself should be relatively simple; since you don't have any existing electronics to deal with and who doesn't like those old school muscle cars? They're simple and beautiful. The biggest drawback to driving them is the horrible gas mileage.

Personally. I'd skip the whole hybrid idea. It adds a lot of complication and weight that doesn't need to be there. Just look at the volt. It's a fantastic piece of engineering, but for what they cost they could have done a 200 mile range electric car instead. For the cost of doing that yourself and the time getting it working right you'd probably be better off getting a used secondary gasser for long trips.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...My vote would be it is better to make a pure EV, and use a gas car for long trips...





jeremyjs said:


> ...you'd probably be better off getting a used secondary gasser for long trips.


You guys kill me with that. You're so adamant about it. I guess it's to be expected on a DIY *ELECTRIC* Car forum, but I disagree with the gross assumption that everyone would be better off with a pure electric driver and a gas backup. For some of us, that simply isn't a feasible option - but - we still like the idea of being able to drive on electric when needed or desired, and continue on with gas when necessary. Example (my goal): a hybrid driver that can do regular 40-50 mile commuting on pure electric, and occasional 200-400 miles trips at the drop of a dime, and a big gas guzzling SUV to pull a trailer for business. An all-electric driver would force me into the truck more than need be, or force me to have three vehicles.

As far as the plan to convert classics goes, it's a great idea if you're doing it for the personal satisfaction. As noted, it's not a logical business idea. The biggest issue I see is perception - how do you get someone to see what they need or want in it? Pure electric enthusiasts seem to be more budget conscious, and focused on efficiency. The restoration costs, on top of EV conversion (pure electric or hybrid), and less than aerodynamic shapes, will not make the classics their first choice. Their hearts may pounds upon seeing them, but their brains will tend to push them back to smaller, modern, cars. The classic car enthusiasts have a huge pill to swallow with the idea of their dream car losing a part of its soul. The engine is a MAJOR pyschological component in a classic car - especially in an American classic like the Mustang.

In parallel hybrid form, the tendency is to use a small four cylinder for weight and efficiency - try selling a classic car enthusiast a Mustang with a four banger! Keeping a small V8, in the hybrid, would maintain the soul but make it heavier and hungrier. The best selling point for a classic hybrid or EV would be performance, but that means tens of thousands in the battery pack to get a favorable weight-to-power ratio.

It may sound like it, but I am not trying to be negative - just pointing out the obvious challenges. You have to come up with the right balance, and find the right (needle in a haystack) person to take it off your hands later. The biggest positive going for you is classic car enthusiasts are usually used to paying hefty prices for their toys, and it isn't always a rational decision. You have to find a way to appeal to their emotions, to the point that it overrides logic. I have ideas for something similar, but it's still not quite the right time to try it. I plan to follow the "they commission me to do it" path though. I think it'll be easier for me to bend my plans around their desires, than it would to shape their desires to fit my plans.

Build one for yourself, with thought of what someone else might enjoy. That way, any way it plays out, it will have been worth the journey.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

i would not reject the idea of a serial hybrid too readily. GM (and others) have produced transmissions with 2 electric motor/generators. If you made it as a pish (plug-in serial hybrid) you could still get some benefit of home charging.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You left out the qualifiers on my statement, I'll quote myself:


DavidDymaxion said:


> It's probably going to be tough to do well with a hybrid of your own design -- even the automakers' hybrids would generally get the same fuel economy if you took the electric stuff out. My vote would be it is better to make a pure EV, and use a gas car for long trips.
> 
> AC Propulsion had a generator trailer that worked pretty well. Google on "EV pusher trailer" to see a clever range extender using the front part of a front wheel driver car.


My qualifier is if you are doing it to save the earth by getting great gas mileage via your own hybrid, that's going to be tough to do. You can do as well getting a pure gas or diesel car as a hybrid for fuel economy (for a heck of a lot less money).

Of course the argument depends on what you are optimizing, energy, money, pollution, parking spots, or whatever.

I started my EV journey planning to do a hybrid. I was going to put a VW diesel into a 924S or 944 or an Audi. 1st and 2nd gears were going to be electric, and 3rd+ gears would start the diesel motor. With lead acid the numbers did not look good -- the weight of the electric part hurt the diesel part, and the weight of the diesel part hurt the electric part -- not to mention space and packaging issues. I have not rerun the numbers with lithium, maybe that would make more sense, but the inherent issues remain. You are going to wind up with a mediocre EV and mediocre a gas car.

Now if it is truly occasional use, then a generator trailer, or a pusher trailer (front of a gas FWD car that pushes your EV) I think is a better plan. Then for most of your EV's use you aren't lugging around all that heavy gas stuff.

The big truck may not be as bad as you think. From what I've read, a Dodge Diesel (probably all the diesels) will outlast about 3 cars. If you factor in the energy it takes to build the 2 or 3 cars, the full sized truck isn't as bad as you'd guess. If you look at it in terms of dollars, the insurance on an extra car would buy about 3000 miles of driving a 15 mpg truck.

To sum it up, I think it is going to be tough to build a hybrid that's worth the trouble, but a pure electric plus a gas car is better, an EV with a pusher trailer or tailered generator next best, and trying to replicate a Prius on your own isn't likeliy to be as good or cheap as just buying a used Prius (especially if you did a plug in Prius).


toddshotrods said:


> You guys kill me with that. You're so adamant about it. I guess it's to be expected on a DIY *ELECTRIC* Car forum, but I disagree with the gross assumption that everyone would be better off with a pure electric driver and a gas backup. For some of us, that simply isn't a feasible option - but - we still like the idea of being able to drive on electric when needed or desired, and continue on with gas when necessary. Example (my goal): a hybrid driver that can do regular 40-50 mile commuting on pure electric, and occasional 200-400 miles trips at the drop of a dime, and a big gas guzzling SUV to pull a trailer for business. An all-electric driver would force me into the truck more than need be, or force me to have three vehicles. ...


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## Vikingdad (May 22, 2011)

madderscience said:


> Based on my observations, the best way to make money in either car restoration or EV conversions isn't to buy, convert/restore and sell. It is to charge billable hours to convert or restore the cars people bring to you, and to sell the parts. You may occasionally end up with a complete car to sell if somebody defaults on their bills or sells you one cheap because they know you are in the business, but that would be a secondary thing.
> 
> I know a couple of people in the local area that have this basic model and it is working for them. They aren't getting rich, but they are making a respectable living doing something they love.
> 
> Good luck.


 This is probably the best advice. Build one for yourself first to see what it really costs you, then build your business model off of that. The first car will be priceless in that you will have learned a great deal as well as having spent a great deal in its transformation.

Most importantly, don't approach this as a hobby. If you want to restore other peoples cars and install electric/hybrid/nuclear powertrains you need to approach it as a business, not a hobby. As a hobby you have no protection legally. You _will _get screwed, if not sooner than later.
Make sure you do all of the legal stuff in order to operate a business (don't operate it out of your parent's barn under the table) so that you can do a legal mechanic's lien when (not if) people abandon or just can't pay for their conversions. Take some classes in managing your own business (many businesses fail simply out of ignorance).


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

I don't know how this turned into talking about making a business out of it, thats not what my original post was about at all haha but oh well


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## Vikingdad (May 22, 2011)

jMedia said:


> I don't know how this turned into talking about making a business out of it, thats not what my original post was about at all haha but oh well


 I understood your original intent, I was advising that you should not try to do conversions for other people unless you approached it as a business. Perhaps you intended on doing these conversions for yourself only and for vehicles you would then sell off after converting them? Don't expect to break even on it. 

If you want to make a million dollars out of a classic car electric conversion service, start out with two million.


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

I had no intentions of converting others cars as a hobby.
Thanks for the advice everyone tho, it would be an awesome career to have


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jMedia said:


> I had no intentions of converting others cars as a hobby.
> Thanks for the advice everyone tho, it would be an awesome career to have





jMedia said:


> I don't know how this turned into talking about making a business out of it, thats not what my original post was about at all haha but oh well


Your original post was kind of vague, which opens the doors for people to interpret it how they want to. It didn't state _why_ you wanted to do it, and what your expectations and end goals were. That lets people fill in the blanks, according to what they _think_ you want. That also allows us to trumpet our own beliefs and opinions about each perceived or assumed end goal, and the snowball starts. It's the caveat of forum discussion...



Now, back to my assumptions: 


DavidDymaxion said:


> You left out the qualifiers on my statement, I'll quote myself:
> 
> My qualifier is if you are doing it to save the earth by getting great gas mileage via your own hybrid, that's going to be tough to do...


He never stated that as a goal. Starting with old classic cars, that are usually not driven much, I assumed it was being done for personal enjoyment as there wouldn't be much opportunity to save anything. If it's for more personal reasons, such as the _appearance of green-ness_ or being unique, the practical considerations aren't as relevant.




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I started my EV journey planning to do a hybrid. I was going to put a VW diesel into a 924S or 944 or an Audi. 1st and 2nd gears were going to be electric, and 3rd+ gears would start the diesel motor. With lead acid the numbers did not look good -- the weight of the electric part hurt the diesel part, and the weight of the diesel part hurt the electric part -- not to mention space and packaging issues. I have not rerun the numbers with lithium, maybe that would make more sense, but the inherent issues remain. You are going to wind up with a mediocre EV and mediocre a gas car...


My first actual plan (born out of JRP3's insistence that electric is "the way") was a similar combination. I wanted to keep the gas-sipping four banger in my Honda Accord and add electric to the back, but with the end goal of increased performance, not better mileage. It didn't make sense on paper for me then, even with the then-new LiFePo4 battery technology. I was still going to end up with a 4000-5000lb pig that got lousy gas mileage and horrible electric range - and not very inspiring performance.

The new battery chemistries change all of that. Remember, my end goal is not saving the Earth or great fuel mileage, it's hyper performance. It is now possible to build a dual powertrain performance car that weighs about the same as the original car, and has incredible performance. Weighing the same, it wouldn't get better gas mileage but would have supercar or muscle car type performance available while maintaining the economy of the original vehicle. It would also have the fringe benefit of being able to run on pure electric. Note: that's an added incentive to the main goal.

The downside, of course, is the cost is astronomical but to certain people that doesn't matter. A premium luxury car or an exotic super car really doesn't do anything that a regular automobile can't do - when considered from a purely practical, daily usage, point of view. The extra pampering isn't really necessary, and the performance isn't legally useful, but people want it and are willing to pay dearly for it. It's not practical, and wouldn't appear to make a good business case - until you factor in human emotions. That was my point about the original poster's idea. If he can tap into that aspect properly, the practical concerns may not matter. Hybrid affords the opportunity to appeal to a wider target. I know he's not talking about building and/or selling them as a business plan, but he might want to sell eventually. I have a project outside in the garage now that I'm stuck with because I never considered who would want it after I was tired of it. 






DavidDymaxion said:


> ...The big truck may not be as bad as you think. From what I've read, a Dodge Diesel (probably all the diesels) will outlast about 3 cars. If you factor in the energy it takes to build the 2 or 3 cars, the full sized truck isn't as bad as you'd guess. If you look at it in terms of dollars, the insurance on an extra car would buy about 3000 miles of driving a 15 mpg truck...


I'm not so into the whole save the world thing, and I buy used (my vehicles already exist) so going back to the cost of building the cars to support the argument isn't relevant for me. I added a second vehicle to my policy and it costs me exactly $12 a month, plus about $55 per year for plates. Regular maintenance is less because it's a small economy car that uses cheaper parts, and less of everything. Working in auto parts, I have a good idea of what it costs to keep certain types of vehicles in good working condition. I still have a screwed up balance because I have two economy drivers right now, but really need one and a truck or SUV. I can think of a half dozen people in my tiny social circle who have the setup I need - a small used economy car for daily driving, and a large truck for work. It works perfect for them, and if they had hybrid drivers it would be even better.

In my case, if I had the hybrid driver I really want, not a Volt or Prius type, I would have an economical driver and a sports/performance car in one vehicle; plus, a truck on standby for work. Another interesting benefit of the dual powertrain hybrid idea is if one mode breaks you can drive to get parts or help on the other one, keeping the truck at rest even more.


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## VoltsCar (Oct 26, 2010)

jMedia said:


> Hello everyone, I am new(ish) to EVs but I am in love with them.
> My dream is to salvage old cars and make them into EVs (or series hybrids)
> 
> The car I would most like to convert would be a 1966 Mustang. But I am also interested in RangeExtenders/Series Hybrids. Has anyone on here had any luck with a range extender?
> ...


Awesome. I'm doing a 1965 Porsche. Old cars are the best for your first conversion due to their more simplistic systems. Plus the time that you spend doing body and rust work can be filled with learning about the components. (which all tend to have long delivery times)

Some things that I upgraded to make more of a 'daily driver' are the seatbelts (3 point retractable) power windows, power locks, seat heaters, keyless entry, stereo, alarm, etc...

To me, an electric car is a bit of a hot rod, in the sense that there aren't that many of them out there, so I'd rather convert an older classic, then say a Nissan Sentra, even though the Sentra might be more 'logical'.

-Michael


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

VoltsCar said:


> Awesome. I'm doing a 1965 Porsche. Old cars are the best for your first conversion due to their more simplistic systems. Plus the time that you spend doing body and rust work can be filled with learning about the components. (which all tend to have long delivery times)
> 
> Some things that I upgraded to make more of a 'daily driver' are the seatbelts (3 point retractable) power windows, power locks, seat heaters, keyless entry, stereo, alarm, etc...
> 
> ...


Awesome, I like your project and mentality to. Making a mustang electric or a hybrid will upset many devout mustang fans, but I see it as a viable way to keep classics alive for many years to come.

I am an environmental engineer, very much into finding clean energy options. So I have different intentions than some people. 

And sorry if I came off rude at all, I appreciate all advice given so far.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

VoltsCar said:


> ...To me, an electric car is a bit of a hot rod...


If you compare the beginnings of the American hot rod scene with this DIY EV movement, you will see a lot of similarities. The hot rod industry was initially, just like the DIY EV industry is currently, a tiny little cottage industry. Racing fueled a lot of its development, and the _need_ for personalization helped it skyrocket. The racing aspect is pretty stable in this realm, which helps, but it will be interesting to see how DIY fares if the manufacturers succeed in developing EVs for comparable costs. There will always be those who prefer to "roll their own", but will there be enough to keep the suppliers in the black? Mixing this with traditional custom vehicle applications seems logical to me. If the little EV guys can't make it own their own, there could be incentive for mergers and acquisitions with existing aftermarket suppliers that keep the EV parts coming down the road.

If we build projects that promote this, and ultimately help develop parts and ideas that support it we not only "save the planet" but may help keep this niche alive.


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## jMedia (May 5, 2011)

If we build it they will come...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You are right, I did have another hidden assumption there! Mustang... Big gleaming V8, or a sea of lithium batteries and dual 11 inch motors... But not a wimpy four banger and golf cart assist! 

Having said that, I have thought it would be awesome to replace the car battery with lithiums (but still in the old lead acid shell). Then replace the alternator with a little AC motor, and hide the controller. The car would weigh very close to the same, it would look stock, and you could add maybe 10 hp (limited by the belt). There used to be (maybe still is?) a kit to do something like this. The next step up would be to replace the flywheel with a pancake motor (maybe up to 100 hp then) or use the Chevy truck hybrid tranny with its electric motor built in.

The distinction here is the hybrid is a lightweight add-on and replaces some of the ICE components and not really a 50/50 gas/electric split.


toddshotrods said:


> ... I assumed it was being done for personal enjoyment as there wouldn't be much opportunity to save anything. If it's for more personal reasons, such as the _appearance of green-ness_ or being unique, the practical considerations aren't as relevant.
> 
> ... The new battery chemistries change all of that. Remember, my end goal is not saving the Earth or great fuel mileage, it's hyper performance. It is now possible to build a dual powertrain performance car that weighs about the same as the original car, and has incredible performance. Weighing the same, it wouldn't get better gas mileage but would have supercar or muscle car type performance available while maintaining the economy of the original vehicle. It would also have the fringe benefit of being able to run on pure electric. Note: that's an added incentive to the main goal.
> ...


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## NuBlue (Apr 2, 2010)

FYI see http://krissmotors.blogspot.com - describes 1957 Porsche 356A Speedster conversion.


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## Dicey (May 24, 2011)

Long time reader, first time poster. Reading this thread, I might bring up that Phoenix Motorcars started out as a company trying to convert new '32 Ford, and similar vehicles, rolling chassis to electric. I don't think I need to bring up how that has worked out, but just a little reminder that this has been tried before and hasn't exactly been met with much success. Not to say you shouldn't give it a go, but it will be a huge challenge to come up with a good target market.


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