# Upgrading DC Motor Performance Tips/Tricks



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I would like to start a thread to discuss what people have come up with ways to help make the standard DC motors handle more voltage and amps than their original specifications...

#1 : Advance Timing

Reason: There is no point in having so much low end torque that it is wasted spinning your tires bald. Better to trade some of it for upper end rpm and better overall power under the curve...

#2: Insulation

Reason: Better insultation within the motor will help reduce the effects of arcing (which can destroy a motor). It should also allow for higher than rated voltage to be applied to the motor from the controller and battery pack.

#3: Larger/powerful cooling fan

Reason: Installing a larger cooling fan or even an auxillary cooling fan to work with the existing one will help keep the motor cooler and more efficient.

#4: Newer "Heavy Duty" Brushes

Reason:.....help.....

#5: ?? Please contribute and Edit

Reason: ??

#6: ?? Please contribute and Edit

Reason: ??


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I entered some comments in RED.



Bowser330 said:


> I would like to start a thread to discuss what people have come up with ways to help make the standard DC motors handle more voltage and amps than their original specifications...
> 
> #1 : Advance Timing
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I would like to start a thread to discuss what people have come up with ways to help make the standard DC motors handle more voltage and amps than their original specifications...
> ...
> #2: Insulation
> 
> ...


I am not a motor expert, but I am pretty sure that the brushes/commutator in a series dc motor are the biggest sources of heat. Maybe coating them with an insulator (both electrical, as expected and desired, and thermal, perhaps not expected but definitely not desired) isn't such a good idea??? I think aiming a high velocity blower at the brushes would be far more beneficial than coating them in liquid electrical tape (and that stuff sucks anyway, folks... really.)

My opinion - worth price paid.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

#4: Newer "Heavy Duty" Brushes (Edit: HARD Brushes)

Reason: harder brushes will release less brush dust which contributes to better reliability and less "flash-over" and thus will help to make it possible to safely increase the voltage of the DC motor.

3 Page article on Brush Life...

http://www.plantservices.com/articles/2006/264.html?page=1


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## hidbulb (Jan 26, 2009)

I never try this...but this is somewhat interesting post...let me think about this...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.manvillemotor.com/nomex_paper.htm

Article on Heat and importance of insulation in DC motors


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Well we have to be REAL carfull here....there is not a whole lot that anyone can do to. Ill add one rebanding the armature for high speed...Doing real tricks will get expensive REAL quick!!! you can't just slap in bigger brushes with haveing a comutator to match. Brushes to wide or to narrow could short too many com bars or not enough. There are certain characteristics of GOOD ev motors that really can't be changed...unless you spend big money. Good characteristics are...

Lots of com bars, Big lamitations, Big wires, Big brushes, Wide comutator...thick comutator..


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I am not a motor expert, but I am pretty sure that the brushes/commutator in a series dc motor are the biggest sources of heat. Maybe coating them with an insulator (both electrical, as expected and desired, and thermal, perhaps not expected but definitely not desired) isn't such a good idea??? I think aiming a high velocity blower at the brushes would be far more beneficial than coating them in liquid electrical tape (and that stuff sucks anyway, folks... really.)
> 
> My opinion - worth price paid.


It's an interesting point... insulating these components. If you look at some brush sets that have experienced flashover.. you can see how the current has "bounced around" and found it's way through various components of the brush holders. In my small brain... it could be a benefit to add a layer of dielectric to most of these surfaces to help prevent this issue. We know higher voltages will create some interesting current paths... reducing this likelihood must be beneficial.. .if something else isn't severly compromised (like cooling) one would think. I know when I rebuilt my motor, my brush holders were light castings of bronze (I believe). There was a thin dielectric (like thin tape) between the conduction bars and the brushholders just to help force the current to take the best path. Many of these motors were meant to run at 36/48 volts. 

I think the forced air cooling will likely help both to cool and possibly also to keep the carbon dust deposits to a minimum. 

I would like to see Jim Husted's comments on this topic. I will email him directly and see what he says. I've had some correspondence with him directly before...just depends on how busy he is.

cheers,


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Inter poles are an EXCELENT way to increase a motors performance!!!

In fact, this would be a GREAT post to start about inter pole design!! I have a set of inter poles from a 2CM88 aircraft generator I wonder if the is a way to "retro" fit these in an 11 inch GE motor??


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Georgia Tech said:


> Inter poles are an EXCELENT way to increase a motors performance!!!
> 
> In fact, this would be a GREAT post to start about inter pole design!! I have a set of inter poles from a 2CM88 aircraft generator I wonder if the is a way to "retro" fit these in an 11 inch GE motor??


http://www.evalbum.com/mtrbr/KOST

the above is a link to the evalbum to all the cars that use the Kostov Interpolled motor...

one of them caught my eye....

http://www.evalbum.com/742

240V into the Kostov...with a Zilla 2K!!! and only weighs 2500lbs total!!!

I am scratching my head why this car isnt faster than 14.9.....but then i wonder if having 2/3 of the entire cars weight in the front gets him enough traction....


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.evalbum.com/mtrbr/KOST
> 
> the above is a link to the evalbum to all the cars that use the Kostov Interpolled motor...
> 
> ...


Yeah I wish I could get the inter poles out of a Kosty motor but, from what I'v been told, the guts of a Kostov motor has the Lam diameter of an 8 inch motor, and it was not that impressive!! So not sure if an 11 inch Kostove pole would fit an 11 inch GE series......


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Georgia Tech said:


> Yeah I wish I could get the inter poles out of a Kosty motor but, from what I'v been told, the guts of a Kostov motor has the Lam diameter of an 8 inch motor, and it was not that impressive!! So not sure if an 11 inch Kostove pole would fit an 11 inch GE series......


Lam diameter? please explain....

So is buying a kostov and refurbishing it for a racecar setup not recommended?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong...but with interpoles, there would be no need to advance brush timing??


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Correct me if I am wrong...but with interpoles, there would be no need to advance brush timing??


yeppers!!! at least not as much...


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Lam diameter? please explain....
> 
> So is buying a kostov and refurbishing it for a racecar setup not recommended?


Don't quote me on this cause I have never torn one apart my self. But from other post and other readings the Kostov motor does indeed have the interpoles which is REAL nice for high voltage, but the rest of the guts are not very strong....In other words the armature is the same size as an eight inch motor and the wires and coils were rather on the thin side...like I said this is what I read...you notice people don't really go out of their way to get one of these motors either, should tell us something about Ol Kosty...


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Actually the more i read this is a pretty cool thread....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Ok so back to the basic DC then...

A: Thorough cleaning from original usage wear and tear...

1: Advance Timing 

2: Insulation (liberal nomex paper wrapping)

3: Larger/powerful cooling blower

4: Newer Harder "Heavy Duty" Brushes

5: Add extra banding (Kevlar) 

Note: The above Letter A, #2 () and #5 is what I noticed when looking through the hitorque electric (Jim H's) website...

Does anyone know what Dennis Berube does to his motors that make them so strong?


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Ok so back to the basic DC then...
> 
> A: Thorough cleaning from original usage wear and tear...
> 
> ...


I would still be leary of number 4. you have to get brushes that are speced for that particular commutator...You could do more damage if you get something that is a mismatch..


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

I would say this about the brushes....If you get a forklift motor that has the single one wide brush, if you can replace it with the two smaller brushes thats better...Talking with motor shops the say that the one wide brush caused uneven ware on the com and burshes and shorten the life, so when they get a one brush motor the always convert it to the two brush settup....



_ when i say one brush it is four brushes total, so going to two brushes means 8 brushes total _


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Georgia Tech said:


> Don't quote me on this cause I have never torn one apart my self. But from other post and other readings the Kostov motor does indeed have the interpoles which is REAL nice for high voltage, but the rest of the guts are not very strong....In other words the armature is the same size as an eight inch motor and the wires and coils were rather on the thin side...like I said this is what I read...you notice people don't really go out of their way to get one of these motors either, should tell us something about Ol Kosty...


So that means I could find one CHEAP, right?  I'm not looking for massive power, my dream EV will be under 700 lbs fully loaded(less if I can afford better than Lead-Acid)...


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

order99 said:


> So that means I could find one CHEAP, right?  I'm not looking for massive power, my dream EV will be under 700 lbs fully loaded(less if I can afford better than Lead-Acid)...


Well two things, there does not seem to be many of them out there and they were on the expensive side to start with, I think if you search really hard you could find one for about 1350.00 or so..just a wild guess.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Great thread!

More mods:

Better bearings
Electric fan cooling
Dynamically adjustable brush timing

I have a Kostov, so I have particular interest in them. The stock ones had reports of reliability issues. Randy Holmquist of Canadian EV ( http://www.canev.com ) modified mine to include better brushes, Kelvar banding, higher temp wiring, and better bearings. Randy has stopped selling them, though, alledgedly for reliability issues. My car isn't running yet, but I'll be sure to report how it survives race usage. If I can do it without disassembly, I'll measure the diameter for the armature. The interpoles do take up a bit of room.

The interpoles help keep the fields aligned, so the motor can take higher voltage without arcing. Advanced brush timing is optimal for just one point. Interpoles are dynamic, and help keep the motor "timing" optimal over a wider range. Interpoles are almost essential for regen, as they work for reverse currents, too. Some folks have done movable brush gear, to allow dynamic brush timing, which would mimic interpole action.

There are some anecdotal reports the Kostovs are a little bit more efficient (probably due to the interpoles). John Wayland was pumping full power through his for 20 to 30 seconds before it blew (800 to 1200 Amps, 336 Volt battery pack, skidding the locked front wheels). His best time with the Kostov was 13.2 s in the 1/4.

It seems the Kostov can take more voltage than Advanced DC, but less current.

You can see John Wayland's Kostov history here: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php .


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> It seems the Kostov can take more voltage than Advanced DC, but less current.
> 
> You can see John Wayland's Kostov history here: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php .


 
Kinda what I though...if we could in some way retro fit the Kostov interpoles in a GE 11 inch or maybe the GE 13 inch motor we would have on Heck of an AWSOME motor!!!! I dare say almost as good as an AC setup!!!  yikes did I say that?? But I will undoubtably say that a GE-11 with kostov interpoles would absolutly out do a Warp 11!!!! NO DOUBT!!!!!!!!!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the input...

Just wrapping it all up....so far we have...

A: Thorough cleaning from original usage wear and tear...

1: Advance Timing 

2: Insulation (liberal nomex paper wrapping)

3: Larger/powerful cooling blower (electric)

4: Newer Harder "Heavy Duty" Brushes (specific to other parts in the motor e.g. commutator)

5: Add extra banding (Kevlar) 

6: High temp wiring

7: Better bearings

8: Trimming of unrequired metal weight (Jim H. trims some metal pieces off the motors to lighten them up...his website has specifics)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You have to be very careful on trimming, as the motor case is the path for the magnetic fields.



Bowser330 said:


> ... 8: Trimming of unrequired metal weight (Jim H. trims some metal pieces off the motors to lighten them up...his website has specifics)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's an interesting idea. It might be doable to modify, or even custom make, new field poles and interpoles and put them into an advanced DC motor. Sounds like it might be a good business opportunity for someone!

Referring back to an earlier message: I thought the GE 13 inch was an interpoled motor, too.



Bowser330 said:


> Can we talk more about the feasibility of an "interpole transplant"....
> 
> I have a colleague at work who is from Bulgaria, and she still has family and friends there who would be able to source us bulgarian forklifts with Kostov motors...


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> That's an interesting idea. It might be doable to modify, or even custom make, new field poles and interpoles and put them into an advanced DC motor. Sounds like it might be a good business opportunity for someone!
> 
> Referring back to an earlier message: I thought the GE 13 inch was an interpoled motor, too.


No the GE 13 inch motor does not...but the Warp 13 claims they have interpoles.....


I think taking a GE 11 or 13 and retrofitting them with the interpoles is HUGE!!! Would be well worth the money and effort!!! Might be tougher to put them in a ADC 9inch I think..


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

look what i found cached away in cyberspace...

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...13"+motor+interpoles&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> look what i found cached away in cyberspace...
> 
> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...13"+motor+interpoles&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us


 
yeah I know I have read this before too, but I am not sure how true it is though....it seems there are more sources that say this is not true that they have interpoles....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

so anyone have any newly discovered ways of strengthening the DC motor?

I am leaning towards getting an interpoled kostov and using the list we have so far to make it stronger...the way I see it...I would rather have a higher operating voltage as it means less demand of large amounts of current...thus more amp hours for range use...

I think elecrocraft controllers are being made to control up to 250V maximum..which would be a nice fit with a built Kostov...


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