# [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger capacity
(2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.

I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
(I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness prevent a
lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?

Thank you for your help.

Larry

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have built a VW Golf and I have built a small Toyota pickup. The 
small truck was a much much better conversion platform.
http://www.evalbum.com/3175

The small trucks will handle the weight of the batteries much better 
than a small car. The steering and the brakes are also much stronger 
for the heavy load it will be packing around.

The Ford Ranger or the S-10 or the Tocoma are all good conversion 
platforms. Find one that has good sheet metal and stay away from any 
rust buckets and you should be fine. The front engine read drive of 
the small trucks is also much easier to work on than the FWD cars.

I would stay the hell away from those cheap ass china made motors and 
look for a Netgain instead. The Netgain motor is much stronger than 
most.

KJD






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One question:

How big are the other two passengers? I used to own an S-10 extended cab
pickup. The two jump seats were facing each other so the passengers rode
sideways. It could seat 4, but nobody liked sitting in the back; young
tweens, or adults. It was OK for 5-6 year olds. If you're talking about a
larger pickup, the extended cab has regular seats, but you will need a lot
more batteries to get the range in the larger vehicle.

I bought an already completed conversion. (www.evalbum.com/2778). I did
inherit some issues, but for the most part, it has worked out well. 

In my case, I had doubts about my ability to follow through with a large
conversion project in a timely manner. I have been able to modify and
update the completed vehicle as smaller projects, because those are more
weekend projects I can fit into my schedule.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Larry Fisher
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 8:35 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
> 
> Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger
capacity
> (2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery
> capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.
> 
> I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my
> own (I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness
> prevent a lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?
> 
> Thank you for your help.
> 
> Larry
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3903625.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

4 door tracker/sidekick! Truck frame, small size.

Brett

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Larry Fisher


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger
> > capacity
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jay Summet <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> > Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve 
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the 
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up 
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft 
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft 
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to 
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries! 
Some time I would like to do a S10 to see how much more room it has in the 
back for batteries, talk is that the frame rails are wider to make it easier 
to fit them in. if u want more batteries I would go with the S10 extended 
cab .

-----Original Message----- 
From: Chris Tromley
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car



> Jay Summet <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> > Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

several things I'll mention...

- Sit in an extended cab small truck if you haven't. The rear seats are =
mostly decorative, imo.

- 60 mile range is lithium, or a truck full of lead that handles like a dum=
p truck.

- If you are going lithium, then even a small car will have the payload cap=
acity you need.

- someone else's problems could be a big issue! Definitely look at the c=
onversion first if you can. Or at least ask lots of questions and get an=
idea about who did it and how they did it.

- Wilderness EV should not be your benchmark. However,even with the b=
est kit in the world, most of the room for error comes in the integration a=
nd installation anyway. Like running/making cables, wire layout, diagram=
s, component/battery locations etc.

- you can probably buy a converted car for less than the cost of the compon=
ents. Sad, but true.

Personally, I bought an already converted car. Small 4 seater (well, 5 i=
f they are real small) that was originally converted with lead, but later u=
pgraded to 150v 130ah lithium (should have about 60 mile range). It need=
s some work, but the initial build was solid. Good component choices and=
workmanship. I save myself the initial design and build, but still feel=
like I'm getting to know the car intimately by doing a rebuild of most of =
the parts. For *me* it is a good compromise. I wanted to do a diy con=
version, but really don't have the time to do it right. This car is goin=
g to end up taking me about a month to get it back on the road, then will l=
et me tackle small fixer projects down the road as I go. At the rate I w=
ork on it (an hour or two here or there, as I have time) it would probably =
take me a year to complete a build from scratch.

david.


________________________________
From: Larry Fisher <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:34 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger capac=
ity
(2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.

I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
(I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness prevent a
lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?

Thank you for your help.

Larry

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.41352=
9.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-tp3903625p3903625.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabb=
le.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Larry and All,
Lots of good comments on this thread, but like another one that I
posted about, it has been discussed a lot, so you can check the
archives, or...

My daily driver is an extended cab 2 WD S10, and although I have done
60 miles per charge, it was with a lot of EV driving experience, like
an "egg shell under the go pedal", etc., very near GVWR with 24 T-145
floodies at 144 volts, and 45 to 55 mph speeds. And if you regularly
deep cycle the pack, your cycle life goes down and you cost per mile
goes up. I typically did 30 miles per charge with opportunity charging
at my destinations, and got over 20K miles out of that pack. If you
really need 60 MPC and can't opportunity charge, then lithium-ion
batteries?

Also, as someone else asked, do you have kids? When mine were
teenagers they almost killed each other when they were both forced to
be in those center facing jump seats! Even having one seat up, it was
tight for one adult in the back.

Another thing that I've said before on this list, I liked having two
EV's, one for utility, and one for fun (truck and RX-7), as it can be
hard to do EVerything you want to do with just one.

Finally, as others have commented on and one of the reasons for
converting an S10, you'll want the lead down low under the bed, and
the S10 frame rails are wider than the Ranger, the drive-shaft is
centered (so you can have symmetrical boxes on each side), and both
rear shocks are aft mounted (pre '94 gen one). Finally, I wanted room
in my poly battery boxes for one inch insulation, so I could only get
four floodies on each side of the drive shaft, and eight behind the
rear-end. If you are in a warm climate, convert a regular cab
long-bed, or use battery heaters, you might be able to squeeze more
in.
Hope this helps,
BB
-- =

Suck Amps,
Dave "Battery Boy" Hawkins
Check out our website!
http://bbevs.com/

> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:34:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Larry Fisher
>
> Looking for guidance on choosing a donor vehicle. Need 4 passenger cap=
acity
> (2 adults), 60 mile range, 50 mph. Like extended cab for utility and
> battery capacity and small car for lighter weight and range.
>
> I am also torn between buying somebody else's problems and creating my own
> (I am a newbie). Does buying a kit from someone like Wilderness preven=
t a
> lot of errors? Or is there still plenty of room for screw ups?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Larry

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks all for your time and concern. My daughters are 9 and 11. Most of
the miles will be put on by my wife and daughters as they travel about on
their Unschooling routines about 30 miles a day. I think I am leaning
toward 4 passenger car and if we need to go to Harrisonburg 26 miles away we
will charge up for 4 hours or more on that end before returning. Trying to
get a utility vehicle out of the bargain is asking too much as is 60 mile
range apparently.

I am looking at Le Car and a Solectria Force. The Force is close to home
and a 97 so is the probable choice. Both need batteries so I could go
Lithium but probably out of range costwise.

My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar pv
roof installation providing backup power to the house during outages. This
will entail creating 48v banks within the car to be compatible with solar
system. Then switching quickly back to series for road use. Any advice?

Larry


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 14 Oct 2011 at 19:56, Larry Fisher wrote:
> 
> > The Force is close to home and a 97 so is the probable choice. Both
> > need batteries so I could go Lithium but probably out of range
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Larry wrote -
> My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar pv
> roof installation providing backup power to the house during outages. This
> will entail creating 48v banks within the car to be compatible with solar
> system. Then switching quickly back to series for road use. Any advice?
>

Hi Larry,

Where do you live? 26 miles from Harrisonburg VA? How many outages have you had in the past couple 
years and how long have they lasted?

I ask that because from your words above 'entail creating 48v banks' implies that your going to have 
a Battery PV system, and not a grid tie system. I would check with your Local PV guy to see what he 
recommends from and efficiency and economics point of view, Grid tie or battery PV?

If your PV system is large enough and you and your family are 'green' enough to produce more 
electricity than you use, you may find it advantageous to not have a battery PV system so that you 
can basically charge your EV for free and not have the expense and problems associated with a 
battery system.

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Couple comments:

It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think since
it probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift
uses about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get
fumes and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead
acid (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
likely last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a
small car). 

I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car, and
has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. It is
cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
have that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded lead
acid batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a few
days backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the
house, and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The PV solar system will be grid tie in with battery bank backup. 
Essentially I want to use the car as the battery bank. I am looking for
independence not just best ROI. I will charge the car from the grid on a
regular basis but want to be able to charge it with solar in a pinch.

I am not sure that we are not headed for some tough times as a country and
as a world community in the years ahead. Hence the look at independence.

We have lived in Tucson and are divesting of rental properties there as we
speak.

Thanks for the input.

Larry

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid is
down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use it
unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My understanding is
this is installed as a safety measure so private systems can't be powering
the grid when it is down.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of tomw
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
> 
> Couple comments:
> 
> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
since it
> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift uses
> about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't get fumes
> and need to regularly check water level like you do with flooded lead acid
> (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower Ah), and they will
likely
> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a small
> car).
> 
> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car, and
> has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per day. It is
> cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time charging if you
have
> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded lead
acid
> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around
> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a few
days
> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the house,
> and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3907960.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:15:57 -0400
From: "Jack" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries!
Some time I would like to do a S10 to see how much more room it has in the
back for batteries, talk is that the frame rails are wider to make it easier
to fit them in. if u want more batteries I would go with the S10 extended
cab .

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tromley
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car



> Jay Summet <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have a standard cab (2 adults, possibly 3 skinny adults) S-10 with
> > Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is addressed by adding a transfer switch. They can be automatic (relay
driven) or manual. Can be inserted between the inverter and the main
service panel, so the inverter disconnects from the panel and connects to a
battery bank (most common), or between the grid and the main service panel
so the complete house circuitry and panel are disconnected from the grid and
connected to the inverter. The latter doesn't do you any good at night of
course, so would also require connection to a battery bank with a charge
regulator. 





> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid is
> > down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Second what Rush said. Unless your utility does not offer net
metering (check to see if it's real net metering where the meter runs
backwards the same speed it runs forwards... not all states require
this), it's wayyyyyy less hassle to have the solar not have any
batteries at all.... unless it's for backup power... in which case,
yes, batteries, and 48 volts is really the highest voltage of battery
backup grid-tie capable inverters till you get into the 100kW
range....

Z



> Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Larry wrote -
> >> My project will also include integrating the car battery bank with solar=
> pv
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Any inverter rated for battery backup use and connecting to the grid
will have this transfer switch built into the inverter. I usually add
one external to it too that can switch the backed up loads to the grid
when I'm servicing the inverter, but under normal operation, the
manual never gets used.

Z



> tomw <[email protected]> wrote:
> > This is addressed by adding a transfer switch. They can be automatic (=
> relay
> > driven) or manual. Can be inserted between the inverter and the main
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Steve Clunn <
Jack is a fine welder and fabricator ,has a nice portable welder ,
Likes working on EV's . Don't know it he would go out side Florida .
The ford ranger he helped with had 26 golf cart batteries and would
pull about 100 amps at 45 to 50 mph , So 45 to 50 miles range at that
speed .



>From: "Jack" <[email protected]>
On the Ranger I welded up the battery boxes for a conversion that Steve
Clunn did for someone & I got five, 6 volt batteries on one side of the
drive shaft & six on the other side & 11 behind the rear end with four up
front total of 26 batteries. the ones in the back next to the drive shaft
were really tight & took a lot of work to get them to clear the drive shaft
& rear end on that one side. after I was done welding I had to go back to
work so I never found out how many miles it was getting with 26 batteries!
e-----
From: Chris Tromley

> Lead Acid batteries (20 six volt) and I like the carrying capacity of
> the truck frame with all that lead. It handles and breaks reasonably,
> but feels like I am carrying around a load of gravel all the time.
> Luckily the truck is designed to carry around that extra weight.

At one time this was the best one could do ... and it was good enough
for me for many years
Steve Clunn

Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If the battery charging part is on the DC side then there is no reason
why that would not still work even while the grid is down, because the
grid must not be backfed, so I understand why a grid-tied system will go
down (I had one for a long time) but there are grid-interactive systems
with a transfer switch in the grid AC path such that the inverter works
in the same way as a backup UPS. 


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:12 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car

Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid
is down. Even if your PV system is generating, you won't be able to use
it unless you can disconnect your system from the grid. My
understanding is this is installed as a safety measure so private
systems can't be powering the grid when it is down.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of tomw
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Extended cab vs small car
> 
> Couple comments:
> 
> It may not cost you as much for LiFePO4 for the Solectria as you think
since it
> probably only uses 250 Wh or less per mile at 60 mph (my Suzuki Swift 
> uses about 225 Wh/mile with one passenger). Also consider you don't 
> get fumes and need to regularly check water level like you do with 
> flooded lead acid (sealed lead acid have even less range due to lower 
> Ah), and they will
likely
> last much longer, weigh less, and require less space (a premium in a 
> small car).
> 
> I have a 5.6kW grid tied pv system which powers both my house and car,

> and has enough power for another another car at about 25 miles per 
> day. It is cheaper to use the grid as your "battery" for night time 
> charging if you
have
> that option. If you don't, you might consider just buying flooded 
> lead
acid
> batteries to dedicate to the solar pv, since they will last for around

> 10 years in that low current application, be fairly inexpensive for a 
> few
days
> backup if like me you only use about 12 kWh per day or less for the 
> house, and save you the hassle of trying to use your car's pack.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Extended-cab-vs-small-car-
> tp3903625p3907960.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at

> Nabble.com.
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is because most grid-tie only inverters are what are called
current source inverters. They can't actually generate any voltage,
they can only supply current to a voltage that they see (and the
software checks to make sure that voltage they see is a perfect
sinewave with the right voltage and frequency, before starting to push
current into it).

Inverters that operate off of batteries are called voltage source
inverters, and can generate their own sinewave. Some of them have the
controls to sync that sinewave with another one from the grid, and
send power back to the grid, and some don't, and will fry if another
voltage source tries to conflict with it's output.

Sometimes you can use a UPS or very clean sinewave voltage source
inverter to trick a current source inverter to turn on, instead of
using a grid signal... but they tend to be pretty picky.

Z



> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 16/10/2011 12:12 AM, Mike Nickerson wrote:
> >> Keep in mind, though, that a grid-tie system will be down when the grid =
> is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To get back on topic here, I would acknowledge that some very experienced 
converters swear by pickups as gliders because (1) the larger lead hauling 
capacity improves range; (2) the small cabin makes for easier heating in 
winter and cooling in summer; (3) it's easy to keep the batteries outside of 
the passenger space.

That said, while I'm sure not everyone agrees, I personally am unlikely to 
ever convert or even own most pickups. The main reason is maybe my own 
blind spot, and that is that in my view pickups are by nature a painfully 
dated design. Their basic layout hasn't really changed much in 50 years. 
They still have rigid frame on body construction that increases weight and 
doesn't protect passengers well in collisions. They use a dated (and for 
EVs inappropriate) front engine/motor layout with a solid live rear axle and 
a long, heavy driveshaft that takes up potential battery space. Their 
aerodynamics are notorious. 

I agree that they have their uses, but they're fundamentally crude, dumb, 
inefficient vehicles. I have trouble seeing one as truly appropriate for 
the 21st century regardless of whether it's powered by electricity, 
gasoline, or Diesel fuel.

Twenty years ago, converting a small car meant you often lost the back seat, 
so you had no more seating than most pickups anyway. The batteries were 
right behind the passengers in the cabin - not too safe. But with today's 
high-specific-energy batteries, we're pretty close to where we can convert a 
small car, drop a battery into the space that used to hold the gas tank and 
perhaps a few other nooks and crannies, and have an EV with something 
approaching useful range. 

So, these days I think you can mostly choose your glider based on your 
passenger and cargo carrying needs, not on your lead-hauling needs. 

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would also reinforce/add that because they are not "cars" their safety requirements are much less stringent. For example in my 86 Nissan I am likely dead if I roll because as a truck is was not required and does not have any roof support.

If you are looking at a standard cab, trucks are not required to have head rests so the glass/cab acts as your headrest.

I converted and still drive my pickup for the reasons David mentioned (and have no kids)

Sent from my iPhone



> "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > To get back on topic here, I would acknowledge that some very experienced
> > converters swear by pickups as gliders because (1) the larger lead hauling
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert Johnston wrote:
> > There was an article on someone who had a grid-tie system, and it refused to generate at all
> > without some power coming in, even with a transfer switch in place.
> 
> ...


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