# IHRA accepts electrics now!



## Kerensky (Jul 8, 2011)

awsome news... i cant wait till the day i watch a top fuel dragster or funny car get its non doors blow off by a 2Kamp silent running rail car.... that thought alone makes me happy in a special place. i can see the steam coming out of the petrol burners ears now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's going to take more than 2K amps to beat a top fuel dragster.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's going to take more than 2K amps to beat a top fuel dragster.


Probably quite a few more. Those things put down tremendous power, but just think of how much of it is wasted on heat, light and sound ;-)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Some fun quick back-of-the-envelopes:

Bill Dube says A123 has some 8 kW/kg cells now (not generally available except to folks like Bill Dube). A top fuel dragster has around 7000 hp (~5000 kW).

5000 kW / (8 kW/kg) = 700 kg batteries (~1500 lbs)

Suppose you run at about 500 V (possible with AC)

5000 kW / 500 V = 10,000 A

10,000 A is a lot of current, it would take 5 to 10 motors and controllers to handle that.

Now you are probably too heavy to be competitive with a top fuel dragster, but you're within roughly a factor of three of the same power to weight -- pretty impressive!

The very quick response of electrics could enable superior traction control to a gasser. There might be some economies of scale, too, like a long motor that was part of the frame, or the rear axle being a huge motor or something, or clever motor mounting not twisting the frame, etc.


JRP3 said:


> It's going to take more than 2K amps to beat a top fuel dragster.


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Some fun quick back-of-the-envelopes:
> 
> Bill Dube says A123 has some 8 kW/kg cells now (not generally available except to folks like Bill Dube). A top fuel dragster has around 7000 hp (~5000 kW).
> 
> ...


Really interesting to see the comparison, never got around to doing the math myself. In top fuel it would seem that for really good packaging along with strength and simplicity would be to have a double shaft motor in between the 2 rear tires with direct drive. Since the tires are something like 36" in diameter, you could run some huge custom motor, say in the 24-30" range (needs to be a little smaller since the tires run a little "flat"). You would then build the rest of the frame forward off of the motor. Swapping motors could be super simple, just unbolt the rear section and it can literally roll away


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Gentlemen,


I agree this is wonderful news for electric drag racing and IHRA members. This news has nothing to do with the National Electric Drag Racing Association, and should not be published as NEDRA news. This article is misleading and could hurt the recent decision by the IHRA to accept EV racing on their tracks. 

I have been corresponding with both the IHRA and the NHRA to allow electric vehicles into their classifications. The 2012 season should see both organizations design specific classes for all our racers, this decision by the IHRA to adopt safety rules and regulations was the first step.

The East Coast Electric Drag Racing Series will be sponsoring many 2012 events that will be sanctioned by the NHRA and IHRA tracks. ECEDRS will be hosting events in NY, NJ, PA, FL, TN, GA, VA, MO. Looking forward to spreading EV racing, meeting new racers and signing new sponsors.


Happy Holidays!




Ronald Adamowicz
Director
www.ECEDRA.com 






DavidDymaxion said:


> *Reposted from the NEDRA list, this is great news!
> *
> *[NEDRA] IHRA Accepts Electric Vehicles in their Racing Rules *
> 
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The East Coast Electric Drag Racing Series (www.ECEDRA.com) has been in negotiations with the IHRA and NHRA for over one year. We have solicited both associations to further expand electric drag racing. I personally spoke with Skooter Peaco, Mike Baker, Kurt Oberholtzer, Jim Weinert on how all organizations can benifit from EV racing. I am very delighted to see all our work is starting to take shape. 

We started an online petition for this cause: 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allow-classification-for-electric-drag-cars-electric-dragsters-and-electric-motorcycles/

We would also like to promote our: 
*2012 Drag Racing Expo Event May 18, 2012*
http://www.ecedra.com/2012evdragracingexpo.html

Very soon, both the NHRA and IHRA will be the official record keeping organization for electric drag racing. 

Happy Holidays to All! 

Ronald Adamowicz 
Director 
East Coast Electric Drag Racing Series


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Salty EV said:


> In top fuel it would seem that for really good packaging along with strength and simplicity would be to have a double shaft motor in between the 2 rear tires with direct drive.


Ack! No! You need some kind of differential in there, or the first time you run anything but perfectly straight you'll snap a shaft of the motor - it's called "Transmission wind-up".


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> 
> I agree this is wonderful news for electric drag racing and IHRA members. This news has nothing to do with the National Electric Drag Racing Association, and should not be published as NEDRA news. This article is misleading and could hurt the recent decision by the IHRA to accept EV racing on their tracks.
> ...


Why am I not surprised Ron had to jump into this and try to make it all about him?  Of course the years of NEDRA involvement in the sport had nothing to do with the IHRA decision, it was all because of the new guy who just discovered EV's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love possibility, and would love to see electric go head to head with ICE, but you guys have the numbers skewed a bit.

Top Fuel engines are putting over over 8000hp now - you can Google, watch a race, talk to a pro team, and you'll find consistency in that fact all day/everyday.

I think the number is around 6000ft-lbs of torque.

The cars weigh 2225lbs, without driver.

After the battery pack, and motors, you're not going to be able to build a car light enough to compete - no way/no how, unless battery power density takes off like a rocket.

The whole instant torque things applies more to street cars. Top Fuel has more torque than they can apply, even with the ICE torque curve. The clutch allows the motor to spin into the powerband in an instant, and begins locking up progressively (according to how the crewcheif or clutch guy set it). Watch a race and you'll see the results of putting too much of that 6000ft-lbs to the track too quickly - tire shake, up in smoke, lose the race (usually, unless the other guy shakes too).

The advantage of the electric motor torque is basically lost in this case because they will apply their torque as fast as you can, as fast as the track and conditions allow.

Next challenge, after you find a way through all that, is to find a way to make sure those motors are providing full power from about 300 feet, because nitro has no sag, and unless they come apart, those engines are now in their element.

I had this thought early on, but quickly realized just how powerful nitro engines are. I could see Pro Stock and P/S Bike possibly getting close someday. Put Rocket's powetrain in a P/S Bike chassis and it would be nipping at the heels of the field.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Agreed, I estimated electrics are about a factor of 3 too heavy.

One clarification: An electric can adjust its torque about 10x quicker than an ICE can. This opens possibilities for real-time traction control (that gets right back on the power) that an ICE could never hope to match.


toddshotrods said:


> I love possibility, and would love to see electric go head to head with ICE, but you guys have the numbers skewed a bit.
> 
> Top Fuel engines are putting over over 8000hp now - you can Google, watch a race, talk to a pro team, and you'll find consistency in that fact all day/everyday.
> 
> ...


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

Thats great news now we can race the ev jr dragster at the Ihra tracks


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

What you should be asking is why the NEDRA organization tried to align themselves with the IHRA? I spoke with Michael Baker today, the boards decision to add supplemental rules for member tracks is for insurance purposes only, they are not "partnered" or "working with" the NEDRA Association. In regards to adding classes for EV Racing, that is still under negotiations, I am trying to work a huge sponsorship deal with IHRA tracks to create purses at each of our events. 



JRP3 said:


> Why am I not surprised Ron had to jump into this and try to make it all about him?  Of course the years of NEDRA involvement in the sport had nothing to do with the IHRA decision, it was all because of the new guy who just discovered EV's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...One clarification: An electric can adjust its torque about 10x quicker than an ICE can. This opens possibilities for real-time traction control (that gets right back on the power) that an ICE could never hope to match.


That's the really sad part David (in the context of the discussion about competing against Pro cars) electronic control isn't allowed - everything is mechanical. So the electric motors might have to run the same type of centrifugal, lock-up, fuse together clutches to control the ramp up of torque.

On the other hand, if they did allow it, there's also nothing stopping the nitro cars from using the same sampling rates, with electro-hydraulic torque controlled differentials. On a street car, in normal traffic, full torque at zero rpm is priceless. In racing, the playing field is more even.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I love possibility, and would love to see electric go head to head with ICE, but you guys have the numbers skewed a bit.


The interesting problem is how to set up equivalent classes.
Weight, tires and suspension are clearly rated the same
I think ICE motor horsepower should be matched to battery power.
Gerhard


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> The interesting problem is how to set up equivalent classes.
> Weight, tires and suspension are clearly rated the same
> I think ICE motor horsepower should be matched to battery power.
> Gerhard


You'll screw EVs if you do that, because your battery pack will ideally have more power than you'll actually use. You want it to be based on motor design and combinations, _e.g._ if you run dual series-DC motors, or if you run four AC motors, etc. The tough part is it takes a lot of time, testing, and experience, for a sanctioning body to establish parameters for classes. It's done by parts combinations and weight restrictions. EV racers have to come up with vehicles that are competitive, meet all the other class requirements, and start petitioning to be allowed to compete in the classes. The EV is likely going to be heavier, so it will need to be more powerful, but as long as it enhances competition it's a win-win deal.

NHRA incorporating P/S Bike, and then incorporating Harleys into the previously all-Japanese inline four-cylinder class, is a good example. One of the major companies (Vance & Hines) pushed the development and adoption. At first it took substantial weight breaks for the Harleys to compete. Then, when they found the power combination, they started running away from the four-cylinder bikes, and they revised the rules to keep it competitive. Now there's a real healthy competition between the two, which makes fans happy, and NHRA stronger.

Follow that path, and they'll roll out the red carpet. Get a sanctioning body rule book, and build a vehicle that *strictly* adheres to every other rule in that class. Ask to run exhibition races, against the conventional class cars, to develop your EV, and make sure it's exciting for the fans - especially when you finally start crossing the finish line with them. Then, you petition for the right to run in competition.


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## jpmorgan (May 22, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> What you should be asking is why the NEDRA organization tried to align themselves with the IHRA? I spoke with Michael Baker today, the boards decision to add supplemental rules for member tracks is for insurance purposes only, they are not "partnered" or "working with" the NEDRA Association. In regards to adding classes for EV Racing, that is still under negotiations, I am trying to work a huge sponsorship deal with IHRA tracks to create purses at each of our events.


So you say. It has been in my memory that the nedra peoples have been talking to the ihra for many years in trying to gain acceptance of running their cars at the ihra track location. I am seeing that the nhra has already adopted these electrics rules from the 1999 printing of their rules book. So sound to me like you are trying to take the credit for the negotiations that have happened in the past. But you say you have only been talking to these race peoples for 1 year. I seen you come on this field with hatred in your mouth and now i see lots of peoples efforts being step on while they are making the progress. Really what is your organization that doesn't really post any records and has not really had any racing except that when you go to your track alone.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You have very little knowledge of the history of NEDRA, yes they have requested to add EV safety rules and regulations, so has many other drivers and associations. I spoke with Michael Baker from the IHRA, his story is much different than these misleading Press Releases, he told me straight and forward, the IHRA is NOT working with NEDRA and has no affiliation with NEDRA. I am not looking for credit, just the truth! 

The ECEDRS hosts the Fastest EV Drag Car in the USA! Soon the World! Now that is a fact. 



jpmorgan said:


> So you say. It has been in my memory that the nedra peoples have been talking to the ihra for many years in trying to gain acceptance of running their cars at the ihra track location. I am seeing that the nhra has already adopted these electrics rules from the 1999 printing of their rules book. So sound to me like you are trying to take the credit for the negotiations that have happened in the past. But you say you have only been talking to these race peoples for 1 year. I seen you come on this field with hatred in your mouth and now i see lots of peoples efforts being step on while they are making the progress. Really what is your organization that doesn't really post any records and has not really had any racing except that when you go to your track alone.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The ECEDRS hosts the Fastest EV Drag Car in the USA! Soon the World! Now that is a fact.


Oh yea, that gutted and tubbed dedicated drag car finally managed to beat a full steel body, street legal, '72 Datsun EV. 

(I'm in a stir-the-pot mood today  )


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You must mean that customized tin can girls car called a Datsun. Since the car has an aftermarket rear end and custom designed suspension, it is far from stock. The rules that NEDRA modified to keep him in the street legal class is dishonest. He also runs at 370v when we ran all summer below 220v. 

Merry Christmas! 



EVfun said:


> Oh yea, that gutted and tubbed dedicated drag car finally managed to beat a full steel body, street legal, '72 Datsun EV.
> 
> (I'm in a stir-the-pot mood today  )


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He can also drive it to the track and back home. Happy holidays


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Whoopi do! That is sooo impressive.



JRP3 said:


> He can also drive it to the track and back home. Happy holidays


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...Since the car has an aftermarket rear end and custom designed suspension, it is far from stock. The rules that NEDRA modified to keep him in the street legal class is dishonest...


Same thing NHRA and IHRA do to allow street cars to compete, safely, at the levels they are capable of - nothing new there, just typical drag racing practice. The class is *Pro* Street, meaning the cars are modified for competition, but as close to stock as possible (with safety in mind again). Even broken parts are dangerous because they go places and injure people, and spilled lubricants can make tracks slippery and unpredictable.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Whoopi do! That is sooo impressive.


I think it is. If he goes out for a 80 mile street cruise, you can count the number of 10-second cars he will pass on one hand. They exist, but you don't see them everyday. Riding around in a sleeper that can waste 95-99% percent of the cars that *try you* is a blast. At first I didn't get why Wayland bragged so much about picking off built musclecars at the track. Then, I started thinking about what it would feel like to be in a big, rumbling, Earth-shaking, big-block, Goat or something and get abused by a guy with 235(?) drag radials on a "customized tin can girls car called a Datsun!" Priceless! 

Why isn't he racing, and putting 9's on the clock this year?!


Don't get your feathers ruffled Ron, just stating the facts as I see them. I also see a solid 8-second car in Warp Factor, so you bragging about a 10-second pass is like John Force bragging about laying down a 7-second shake-down pass. Go low-key and tell people you were just shaking it out at half-power. "She had a ten in her at half power, and this year we're going to turn up the juice - you do the math!"

Merry Christmas!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I was referring to the "other" NEDRA Racers that are not happy with the NEDRA rulebook, some have cars very similar to Waylands (street legal) but are listed in a higher class because of the way they design (or fitted) the rulebook to keep John Waylands car in the street legal class. He has an aftermarket rear and suspension, custom motor mounts and supports, new FLOORING, etc......his car is far from stock.

No big deal, just can't stand guys like Wayland that brag so much when they do not even drive their own cars, shoot he barely works on his own car. He should be called Team owner and keep that label.

2012 is bringing in some big boys with drag racing experience into the sport, that is what I like! 

Have a Merry Christmas! 



toddshotrods said:


> Same thing NHRA and IHRA do to allow street cars to compete, safely, at the levels they are capable of - nothing new there, just typical drag racing practice. The class is *Pro* Street, meaning the cars are modified for competition, but as close to stock as possible (with safety in mind again). Even broken parts are dangerous because they go places and injure people, and spilled lubricants can make tracks slippery and unpredictable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> [snip] Then, I started thinking about what it would feel like to be in a big, rumbling, Earth-shaking, big-block, Goat or something and get abused by a guy with 235(?) drag radials on a "customized tin can girls car called a Datsun!" Priceless!


225/25/15 BF Goodrich G-force DOT approved drag radial tires on the back. I'm amazed they fit inside the stock wheel wells. I think the car came with 145R12 tires originally. Perhaps hot rodding Japanese imports is only a west coast thing. There is a lot of respect from that community for anybody that shows up in an older RWD Japanese import.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> ...Perhaps hot rodding Japanese imports is only a west coast thing. There is a lot of respect from that community for anybody that shows up in an older RWD Japanese import.


I don't know about the East coast, but here in the Midwest there is a lot of anti-Asian vehicle sentiment left, but acceptance is growing. Depending on who you talk to, and where you go, you can find anything from outright hatred to genuine appreciation. We've a long way to go, but we're getting there. It's much better here now, than it was when I was in high school (30+ years ago).

There is a large import car enthusiast base here, but it's kind of (purposely) underground (I think) because of the "good ol boy" hatred that ruled for decades. The, usually younger, people who are into them don't mix and mingle much and the American musclecar guys usually have no clue what's going on in the import world.

One of my guys has a turbo Civic that will waste the average (street) musclecar, but you'd never know it to see it, and probably never from talking to him. I didn't even know how active he is in the import scene here (and even that one existed) until he found out I was in favor of imports. It's underground, but right under your nose.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> One of my guys has a turbo Civic that will waste the average (street) musclecar, but you'd never know it to see it, and probably never from talking to him. I didn't even know how active he is in the import scene here (and even that one existed) until he found out I was in favor of imports. It's underground, but right under your nose.


The main problem with American Muscle cars is that they still use vastly antiquated technologies ("Live Axle" rear suspension? What is this, an oxcart? Engine RPMs measured in glacial ages, Carburetors and distributor caps, and a dogged determination to stick with 8 cylinders). They're great for a quarter-mile drag, but the first time you need to take a corner you're screwed:




In fact, if you can find it, that entire special is quite enlightening. It's why Ford went back to their European arm (twice, no less, once in the 60's to get the european-style efficient engines from Ford UK/Germany, and again in recent years to get ecoboost and multilink suspensions and generally steal wholesale the Ford Focus and Fiesta).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> The main problem with American Muscle cars is that they still use vastly antiquated technologies ("Live Axle" rear suspension? What is this, an oxcart? Engine RPMs measured in glacial ages, Carburetors and distributor caps, and a dogged determination to stick with 8 cylinders)...


You couldn't have done a better job of stacking the deck in favor of what you wanted to say.  You pick a British comedy show, that's known for staging tests (_e.g._, the infamous Tesla episode), running a British sports car against an American pony car?! What result did you expect? 



Anaerin said:


> ...They're great for a quarter-mile drag, but the first time you need to take a corner you're screwed...


Wrong!  You must not be aware of what current "antiquated" musclecar aftermarket technlogy is capable of on a road course or autocross course. They run with the sports cars - *with* live axle rear suspensions! 1+g is easily obtained, with handling that is on par with multi-link suspensions. In Pro-Touring, which is musclecars built to handle like modern sports cars, there are two preferred ways of doing the rear suspension - a 3-link live axle, and C5/6-based IRS. The main advantage to the Vette suspension is it rides better on the street, but there hasn't been a clear advantage on the track, yet. On the track (and grossly over-simplified), IRS has a slight advantage on turn-in under braking, and tracking your line through the apex, but the live axle exits harder - so, matched to car and driving style, there's no clear winner - just personal preferences.

How do I know all this? I had to do my homework to be certain the Inhaler's live axle rear end wasn't going to be a hindrance to its performance goals.  If it was, I would have switched to IRS, and found a way to recover the antique, unsophisticated, aesthetic. No need.

But we digress...  This is about electrics racing in sanctioned drag races, and mention of musclecars was more about the mentality than the technology.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> You couldn't have done a better job of stacking the deck in favor of what you wanted to say.  You pick a British comedy show, that's known for staging tests (_e.g._, the infamous Tesla episode), running a British sports car against an American pony car?! What result did you expect?


Well, first of all that wasn't actually from Top Gear. It's from "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly", done independently of the BBC by Jeremy Clarkson.

Next, that American "Pony" was a Rousch-tuned and refitted road model Mustang GT ("Stage 3" model, Supercharged 4.6l v8, reworked suspension and brakes, overhauled engine, tested against it's other available tuned vehicles earlier and for handling and cornering found a lot better than the Shelby-tuned GT, which didn't touch the suspension or brakes at all). It was compared to a base model road-going Lotus Exige, (NA 1.8l Toyota/Yamaha straight 4). Both vehicles bought direct from the dealer.


toddshotrods said:


> Wrong!  You must not be aware of what current "antiquated" musclecar aftermarket technlogy is capable of on a road course or autocross course. They run with the sports cars - *with* live axle rear suspensions! 1+g is easily obtained, with handling that is on par with multi-link suspensions.


Oh, I know that.




Would you prefer a Dodge Viper?







toddshotrods said:


> In Pro-Touring, which is musclecars built to handle like modern sports cars, there are two preferred ways of doing the rear suspension - a 3-link live axle, and C5/6-based IRS. The main advantage to the Vette suspension is it rides better on the street, but there hasn't been a clear advantage on the track, yet. On the track (and grossly over-simplified), IRS has a slight advantage on turn-in under braking, and tracking your line through the apex, but the live axle exits harder - so, matched to car and driving style, there's no clear winner - just personal preferences.


If you have to take your base car and completely strip and rebuild it to make it suitable, why are you starting with that car? 


toddshotrods said:


> How do I know all this? I had to do my homework to be certain the Inhaler's live axle rear end wasn't going to be a hindrance to its performance goals.  If it was, I would have switched to IRS, and found a way to recover the antique, unsophisticated, aesthetic. No need.


I'm glad it'll work for you, and I really do look forward to seeing how this one turns out. I'd love to work with an IRS system, but that's mainly 'cause I want to go Direct Drive, and place the motors in place of the diff. With a live axle, that means the motors are unsprung weight, and subject to all the stresses and vibration of the road.


toddshotrods said:


> But we digress...  This is about electrics racing in sanctioned drag races, and mention of musclecars was more about the mentality than the technology.


Yes, yes it is. Perhaps we should just stop here.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Lol-Top Gear is ENTERTAINMENT not factual reviews. Clarkson is the entire reason the show is entertainment so if he reviews anything he is going to focus on entertainment instead of facts. This is even more true if its just him outside of the show. Modern technology is not limited to European or Japanese cars, and neither is handling. The funny thing is how when the Europeans and Japanese wanted to build high performance big cars they went to larger cylinder numbers and higher displacement. No one continent, country, or company has some magic secret that none of the others know that allows them to build some sort of magical car that eclipses all others. Having favorites is fine, believing they are the only ones who know what they are doing is foolish.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Some fun quick back-of-the-envelopes:
> 
> The very quick response of electrics could enable superior traction control to a gasser. There might be some economies of scale, too, like a long motor that was part of the frame, or the rear axle being a huge motor or something, or clever motor mounting not twisting the frame, etc.


How about 2 rear axles with traction applied to all wheels on the 2 rear axles?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> Well, first of all that wasn't actually from Top Gear. It's from "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly", done independently of the BBC by Jeremy Clarkson...





Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Lol-Top Gear is ENTERTAINMENT not factual reviews. Clarkson is the entire reason the show is entertainment so if he reviews anything he is going to focus on entertainment instead of facts. This is even more true if its just him outside of the show...


What he said^^^




Anaerin said:


> ...Next, that American "Pony" was a Rousch-tuned and refitted road model Mustang GT ("Stage 3" model, Supercharged 4.6l v8, reworked suspension and brakes, overhauled engine, tested against it's other available tuned vehicles earlier and for handling and cornering found a lot better than the Shelby-tuned GT, which didn't touch the suspension or brakes at all). It was compared to a base model road-going Lotus Exige, (NA 1.8l Toyota/Yamaha straight 4). Both vehicles bought direct from the dealer...


My point was it's a pony car against a sports car. A pony car isn't designed and built (from the factory) to go head-to-head with a purpose-built sports car. A sports car is made to handle, above all things; a pony car is made to have decent all-around performance, but carry the image of power and performance - above all things. The original Camaros and Mustangs (Nova and Falcon chassis) were economy cars with sporty styling, and then bigger engines, making them a type of muscle car. Modern versions are basically sport-luxury grand touring cars. They're meant more to evoke an image of power, while pampering the occupants. Sure, you can make one handle decent, but being a raw sports car like the Lotus isn't what they were designed for.




Anaerin said:


> ...If you have to take your base car and completely strip and rebuild it to make it suitable, why are you starting with that car?...


It's a hobby, focused on preserving classic cars, while adding modern amenities. There's no real logical reason to restore any car, or buy anything other than plain clothes, or watch anything other than information-based programming, but we have a "need" to do it all. 

Also, the videos you posted (Vette and Viper) are IRS cars. 




Anaerin said:


> ...Yes, yes it is. Perhaps we should just stop here.


I think it's taking on a life of its own, lol! 





Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Having favorites is fine, believing they are the only ones who know what they are doing is foolish.


That's a great statement for the context of this whole thread. I'm amazed by how much people find the need to segment and separate themselves. There aren't even a handful of EV drag racers and the ones that exist find the need to split into more and more categories, and berate any other EV drag racers that aren't like them. One would think that Ron, John, Dennis, Bill, Shawn, and the other top racers, would all be sharing secrets, helping each other, and showing up at ICE events to pick off the gas competition one by one (even though that's still stupid to me, because they're still all cars, rolling on rubber tires, down the same stretch of concrete and asphalt, being piloted by evolved apes). Nope, they're all too busy trying to kick each other down.

Back to the point of the thread, it would probably be easier to get respect from NHRA and IHRA as a united, and formidable, force.

That ain't gonna happen...


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> I don't know about the East coast, but here in the Midwest there is a lot of anti-Asian vehicle sentiment left, but acceptance is growing. Depending on who you talk to, and where you go, you can find anything from outright hatred to genuine appreciation. We've a long way to go, but we're getting there.


What is the sentiment about European cars?

In Australia, the town I live in, a number of people hate European cars.

It is also interesting how some of these people discouraged me from doing my Electric Go Kart conversion. 

However, my Electric Go Kart has impressed Ferrari owners, Porsche owners, BMW owners, other Euro car owners, corporate CEOs and General Managers and many more. I've been invited to high profile events and I'm now preparing for *Summernats* with sponsors helping me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CrazyAl said:


> What is the sentiment about European cars?...


They are generally well-accepted here, especially German cars. The truth is you don't see many Italian cars, but Ferraris and Lamborghinis are major status symbols. British and Swedish cars are picked on a bit for their quirkiness, but still fairly well accepted.

The Japanese car thing goes back to Pearl Harbor. Later, when the Japanese car manufacturers first started selling their tiny little cars here they were like jokes, but they soon developed _bigger_, more competitive, models, and undercut on pricing and flooded the markets (along with other consumer goods) - it rekindled the anger and it hasn't died down yet.

Keep in mind this is all with the purist enthusiasts. Asian cars compete with American cars for top sales, so the average American driver isn't concerned with it at all. For many a Honda or Toyota is a benchmark of quality, and an important piece of the typical middle-class American lifestyle. They may not readily admit to it, but even some of those musclecar-driving, all-American, boys have Japanese and Taiwanese vehicles sitting in their garage at home, waiting to dependably transport them to their jobs to pay for their musclecar addictions.





CrazyAl said:


> ...However, my Electric Go Kart has impressed Ferrari owners, Porsche owners, BMW owners, other Euro car owners, corporate CEOs and General Managers and many more. I've been invited to high profile events and I'm now preparing for *Summernats* with sponsors helping me.


Ditto with the Inhaler, and it has yet to even move under its own power. It has been a lot of fun so far, and people are generally very positive and receptive to the concept.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

the real reason why real man cargo - or minivans not allowed in same drag race category as cars - they have much more room to put much more muscle, live axles, IS or both - as been proven on TopGear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fif-Cy2eSoc&feature=related







in US it also been proven - it would be impossible for cars to compete with real working man vehicle - it would beat little cars around any construction site on any bumps or whatever









some say, some tv shows - are fake tv comedy shows, not real, just for fun, - all jokes, anecdotal, ridiculous and hilarious situations are made-up, staged for making fun and for the show ... some say - they are not...
: )

i heard - Ron and John Wayland in reality are friends, electric car enthusiasts - making fun of each other (all pillow fights - they are real or not?) - all just for fun and for the show

bragging, making fun of each other - nature of the beast
when you have team sport - team members can and will brag about team, car, who does best in what they do, or who holds whose purse while one drives, etc

nature of the beast: 
some believe, fun shows on tv - are real, none of comical situations are fake and made up just for fun ...

well, then i'm at risk to offend a lot of people by saying - do you know, wrestling shows are fake! 
: )))

marry christmas everybody!


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

speaking of patriotic sentiments - on first place by really "Made in America" - Toyota Camry, second - Honda Civic, third - Chevy...

even look at "All-American" John Deere - if you see "Made in China" stamped on it's frame - don't believe your eyes; it's gotta be some Chinese replicas or counterfeit they sell nowadays in some JD dealerships ....
: ))))


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> .... One would think that Ron, John, Dennis, Bill, Shawn, and the other top racers, would all be sharing secrets, helping each other, and showing up at ICE events to pick off the gas competition one by one (even though that's still stupid to me, because they're still all cars, rolling on rubber tires, down the same stretch of concrete and asphalt, being piloted by evolved apes). Nope, they're all too busy trying to kick each other down.


For the most part they do share secrets, with few exceptions. It may not happen publicly but there is lots of sharing going on. But then again lots of kicking too ;-)




toddshotrods said:


> Back to the point of the thread, it would probably be easier to get respect from NHRA and IHRA as a united, and formidable, force.
> 
> That ain't gonna happen...


.... Oh but it will


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Late response, I hadn't seen this before.

John Wayland happily publishes what his car is, anyone could duplicate it. Bill Dube showed my everything on KillaJoule, no secrets there. Dennis Berube showed me everything on his truck, but did hold back on what he has done inside his motor. Ron has posted enough that anyone could duplicate his car. Except for Berube's motor secrets (which personally I'm fine with that) people seem to be sharing what they do pretty openly.

The personality clashes are a different story!


toddshotrods said:


> ... One would think that Ron, John, Dennis, Bill, Shawn, and the other top racers, would all be sharing secrets, helping each other, ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

There is plenty behind the scenes talk in regards to EV drag racing, most ECEDRS and NEDRA racers are friends, Jeff Disinger was at my house a few weeks ago and will be painting my car. There are still some who have chips on their shoulders, but at this point who cares! It's time to race not fight.

One day soon the NHRA and IHRA will add classes or allow electrics into existing classes and they will be the World Sanctioning Body for all drag racing.


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