# Street Legal 1/4 mile record 10.258



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

White Zombie just did a record of 10.258 seconds @ 123.79 mph!

This just happened, no details or vids yet, but I'm sure John Wayland will post something here after a few days: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

The NEDRA Nationals were a blast, there should be some great videos and pics comming soon. 

There were a few records broke this weekend, The White Zombie set a few with the 10.258 1/4 mile and also broke the record for the fastest street legal EV at 126 mph. That makes the White Zombie the first street legal EV to break the 125 mph mark. 

Congrats to John Wayland and his team !!

Father Time also set an 1/8 mile record in his Green Machine

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Here are the first pics Ive seen posted of the event. 

These pics are from the track photographer Carol

http://picasaweb.google.com/PIRPhotogal/PIRNEDRAEVentAndStreetBikeChallenge2FridaySept102010#

http://picasaweb.google.com/PIRPhotogal/PIRNEDRAEVentAndStreetBikeChallenge1FridaySept102010#

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Amazing....Thanks Dave

Its a 10 second EV that can also travel 100+ miles per charge...freakin cool...


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Here is a link to a video of the record run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOTewHnwVGI

Im sure there will be more to follow 

Best regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

One of the zombies crazy launches before they sorted out the traction issues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqTY9y3cECI

and another that starts off with pics and about 3-4 minutes in has lots of clips of EV's racing

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=northwestmike#p/u/0/huXZcNU24uc

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Here are several more, the first on was the first run of the weekend for the zombie. It fish tailed pretty badly but Tim was able to get it under control. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRwbMZzSoFU 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx_Z6z_MF0Q&feature=channel 

Second one is the 126 mph run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx_Z6z_MF0Q&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx_Z6z_MF0Q&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVurxiR5n0c&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QfcKnjBaDA&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyTvrWgie7w&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZrGpusPyo&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYyHXYbk6Z8&feature=channel

Best Regards

Dave Kois
Current EV Tech, LLC
http://www.currentevtech.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...


Keep in mind that battery pack he is using costs a nice fat $40-50K USD


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damn that fishtail was scary, nice recovery.


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> This car's acceleration is similar to a Bugatti Veyron above 60 mph, and below 60 mph, would blow its doors off. I'm glad he decided to re-gear it; I wouldn't be surprised if its true top speed approached 150 mph, which would be especially remarkable considering the car has no transmission. I've held the opinion for the last 5 years that the technology existed for a street EV to get into the 9s, and Wayland is very close to that. This man needs a nice, fat, $100,000+ grant to play with...


I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

2cycle said:


> I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.


 yea it's not fare only cost 1.5 million for a car that can only run at max power for 15 minutes before it runs out of gas . 1000 hp takes over 100 gallons / hour . I remember a small Chevy 350 hp burned about 65 gallons per hour at the 350 hp power level . with cars like the 4 wheel drive,4 motor ev's with micro turbines will out class the Veyron , like the 780 hp Jaguar concept . simpler ,cheaper, faster , better braking ,easier to work on , less work to maintain , more range if heat recovery on the turbines and much inproved traction control . At least Jag and Mercedes are moving that way . I wonder how much that Datsun could be copied for ?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

2cycle said:


> I don't think you can compare a Veyron to a Datsun.


I just did... in any street scenario where there wasn't enough road to exceed 120 mph, that Veyron would get RAPED by that little electric Datsun.

The Veyron wouldn't catch up until a bit after the 1/4 mile mark.

Of course, for about half the price of a Veyron, you could buy a MiG 22 Foxbat on the Russian black market...



aeroscott said:


> I wonder how much that Datsun could be copied for ?


Using the exact components, about $60,000. You could probably replicate it but swap in cheaper Hawker lead acid batteries and aim for low 11s in the 1/4 mile for about $25,000 in parts.

Were EVs mass produced, the battery pack cost for lithium would drop dramatically... it really shouldn't cost that much more than lead. On a per kWh basis, Thundersky LiFePO4 is already cost competitive with AGMs(< $400/kWh), although not yet competitive on a per kW basis(AGMs have about a 3:1 advantage). Unlike other Li Ion batteries, the Thunderskys enjoy volume sufficient for mass production of automobiles, and thus their low cost.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like the whole EV idea - I'm building one - but you guys really need to take the rose-colored glasses off. The accomplishments of modern EVs are impressive enough to stand on their own without skewing the facts.

*Veyron vs Zombie*
If someone took a Veyron and set it up for drag racing - gear it to acheive max acceleration in 1320ft (vs 230-260mph top speed), and swapped on a set of drag radials (vs more road race/street oriented production radials) - I think the quarter mile times might be a bit faster than Zombie's.​ 
Sort of like this (and it's still geared for 238mph!):




 
The Lingenfelter Vette is a good example. The twin-turbo engine costs about the same as Zombie's Kokam pack, transmission about the same as Zombie's siamese motors, etc. (I know, I know, the Vette cost more to start with, but the components that make it fast could, and have, been applied to other, cheaper vehicles). The LPE Vette runs 8.90s in the quarter-mile, consistently. Turn the boost down, put the street tires back on and you can drive it from sea to shining sea, with the AC on.




 
For a more direct comparison, for those who think I stacked the deck with the costlier Vette and Gallardo (I was really trying to be nice by picking heavy cars), consider this little monster:




It's probably comparable to Zombie in (original and build) cost, weight, and size. Two seconds faster.​ 

The aforementioned Veyron is also a rich man's toy, with every conceivable creature comfort that could be stuffed in it. It wasn't made specifically for drag racing, it's a status symbol. The performance is a prerequisite for the price tag and image. The Toyota, on the other hand, is right up Zombie's alley.​ 
As for cost: Zombie's Kokam pack would be around $60+K by itself. I know because I looked into them for the Inhaler. A Jim Husted siamese 9, comparable to what Wayland has is probably going to set you back $10K or more, $3-5K for the rear end, wheels, tires, chassis, etc. You can easily spend $75-100K to replicate it, depending on the level of quality you want, and amount of labor you have to pay for.​ 
Again, I am not trying to knock any EV. WZ is the car that tipped the scales in favor of me going EV, and it's recent performance is very inspiring. I just believe in keeping things in perspective, and representing things honestly. I've considered all this stuff in my own plans, so I have a pretty good grasp of where things stand and what is really possible.​


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh no Todd, now you did it. I actually started to type the same kind of response to that but stopped because I got flamed for "wiping the windows" before, and I think EV is the future as well but it is nowhere near equal yet. It's not their faults if they have never seen a real drag race and be able to recognize the WZ vids are all against OK street cars running DOT tires and geared for street driving. I help a few friends with drag cars and bikes and I'm an engine builder by trade. Most of my friends run 7 and 8 sec cars and a crazy 6 second bike here and there. The WZ has great "for street car" launches but not that great for drag cars, which is what he has turned WZ into. That vid of the tan colored import car should put things into perspective for the uninformed that don't frequent the drags. 
The way the Lightning TTXGP team, with Major, has conducted themselves amongst naysayers is on par with any new tech racing effort I've ever seen. They are also, in my opinion, the closest thing to a near equal comparison to ICE roadrace bikes such as the Harley's/Buell's and other twin cylinder bikes. The performance is stunning to say the least and it can only get better. 
WZ is no match dollar for dollar with 10 sec ICE cars, he easily has twice the money into his car than a 10 sec ICE car. That doesn't mean give up, that just means lets acknowledge a goal achieved and move forward. The good thing is it may only take another 400 hp to reach the level of that little tan zombie and with new tech reaching us every day that may be sooner than you think


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

2cycle said:


> Oh no Todd, now you did it...


Truth is what it is, accept it or get smacked down by it. I think it's an injustice to what EVs have achieved to stretch the truth. It makes the whole thing come across as snake oil sales. I am totally impressed with the performance of WZ, but don't like the fact that they present it as though they're smacking the taste out of the mouths of comparable ICE racers. That's a lie.

Present the truth as it is. It's a little slower, dollar-for-dollar, than ICE racing. It's no less exciting though, has the benefit of being based on the technology of tomorrow, and it is getting faster almost exponentially - like most high-tech stuff does. Maybe some day electric will blow the doors off ICE, but for today it's a few steps behind.

If I spent what it will cost me to build the Inhaler's electric powertrain on a twin-turbo, aluminum block, V8 I would have a high-6-sec quarter-mile vehicle! I am building it a little slower on electric because it's cooler.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

By the way, since this thread is about the Zombie, I believe the car has a 9-sec pass in it as it is. If he had the chassis setup of the Toyota in the video it would probably be a mid-9 sec car, maybe low-9s. I'd be a little concerned with anything faster than that on the current chassis though.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The Siamese 9" motor is $8,400, listed on Jim Husted's site. The Zilla 2k HV is $5,000. The PFC50 charger costs $3,300. The drive shaft probably costs around $800. The Dutchman 9" Ford HDST rear-end is $825 per the Dutchamn motorsports website. The CalTracs traction bars will set one back about $500. The pair of g-Force P 225 /50R15 radials in the rear are $320 plus the two LRR Continental tires up front are an additional $120. Add another $700 for the alloy wheels. About $3,000 in car plus ancillary components to make the car road worthy(DC-DC, aux battery, contactors, fuses, wiring, seats, battery housing, ect.).

This is ~$23k, without batteries or BMS. The lead acid version didn't need a roll cage, and the lead acid batteries he used were $3.5k for the pack. Surely, at least some of the parts could be found used, bringing the cost around $25k or less, for the lead acid setup for which to run 11s. This is provided one does all of their own work putting the car together.

At $23k without batteries, BMS, or roll cage, and adding $1,000 for the roll cage so that it can meet NHRA regulation, this leaves $36k for the pack and the BMS without going over $60k. My understanding was that his pack was somewhere around $40k. If that battery cost is correct, the car's build cost, if you do your own work, would be about $60k.

I'm waiting on a quote from Dow Kokam(I intend to perhaps buy a pack of these years down the road and had inquired earlier), but the time I inquired about Kokam batteries 5 years ago, they were about $1,100/kWh(for the kind used in the "Electric Imp"). These new Dow Kokam ultra high power batteries are a completely different battery, but I'd be very surprised if the cost is above $2,000/kWh; that price just wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A123, which has similar specific power, but is currently around $1,000/kWh. Wayland's pack is 22.7 kWh.

How large of a pack were you investigating? If you don't mind sharing, what was the exact amount they quoted you? $60k for 23 kWh(including BMS) may indeed be the case, but it definitely sounds a bit high!


Further, Wayland's car is street legal, and maintains its original chassis. I'd be hesitant to call it a drag car, as those tend to be built on a chrome molly chassis with a tubbed rear end, and non-legal tires. While the Datsun definitely has its amenities stripped out, it is 100% street legal, including the tires. It also never has to worry about being cited for excessive noise, and in some states, violating emissions regulations. Were that Lingenfelter relegated to street legal tires, it probably wouldn't get that 8.9 in the quarter mile, and may come up half a second or more short.

While it is true that a street legal ICE car that is faster than the Zombie can be built for a lower price, the ICE car's parts are more easily available and enjoy economies of scale, versus Jim Husted hand building a Siamese 9" or Otmar hand-assembling a Zilla controller and taking the time to make sure the characteristics of the IGBTs used match closely enough to be put into a balanced, working controller. If EVs and their parts ever see volume production, then the real comparison will be known; I suspect EVs would be cheaper if on an even playing field using today's EV technology, but they are not.

I chose to compare the Veyron because John Wayland has done something many would think impossible; he has built a street legal electric car that accelerates faster than the fastest accelerating production car on Earth(or one of the fastest). THAT is what I was getting at. If he can compete in acceleration with the fastest production car on Earth, what is there to stop the auto industry from building a $500,000+ boutique electric car that out performs the Veyron in every which way, shape, or form, and even gets comparable range? Being that the Veyron is a 4500 lb lard ass, surely a competitive EV could fit a 1500-2000 lb pack of lithium under there... the Eliica from Keio University comes close in top speed, doing 231 mph on the Nardo test track in Italy, and whose designer says will do 250 if given enough track.

Give Wayland $100k to play with, and I would not be surprised if he got into the very low 9s, and remained street legal. He hasn't even explored his current setup and is deep into the 10s.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Wait for that second Zilla Z2K EHV to be installed in the WZ.  I wonder what happens if you strip out that Toyota, put all WZ components in and put in the smallest battery pack enough to do 1 or 2 runs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We're talking Zombie level performance here. Of course you can cut corners and come up with a nice car, but the point is to replicate it.



The Toecutter said:


> The Siamese 9" motor is $8,400, listed on Jim Husted's site...


I doubt that "off-the-shelf" motor has all the "enhancements" WZ's motor has.




The Toecutter said:


> ...The PFC50 charger costs $3,300...


I think WZ runs a Manzanita Micro.




The Toecutter said:


> ...The Dutchman 9" Ford HDST rear-end is $825 per the Dutchamn motorsports website...


That's the housing and axles. You still need a complete third member. WZ uses the aluminum case version. Add shipping and labor to set it up, if you don't know how yourself and don't want to keep buying parts.




The Toecutter said:


> ...This is ~$23k, without batteries or BMS. The lead acid version didn't need a roll cage, and the lead acid batteries he used were $3.5k for the pack. Surely, at least some of the parts could be found used, bringing the cost around $25k or less, for the lead acid setup for which to run 11s. This is provided one does all of their own work putting the car together...


Your estimate was in the ballpark though, and as you noted doesn't include labor. You also have to count in the extra labor WZ gets from its team, which I don't believe is on payroll. It's not just John who makes that car go, it's a handful of extremely talented people contributing their time and expertise. You have to either have his charismatic ability to draw them to the project, or a bank account capable of it.




The Toecutter said:


> ...I'm waiting on a quote from Dow Kokam(I intend to perhaps buy a pack of these years down the road and had inquired earlier), but the time I inquired about Kokam batteries 5 years ago, they were about $1,100/kWh(for the kind used in the "Electric Imp"). These new Dow Kokam ultra high power batteries are a completely different battery, but I'd be very surprised if the cost is above $2,000/kWh; that price just wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A123, which has similar specific power, but is currently around $1,000/kWh. Wayland's pack is 22.7 kWh.
> 
> How large of a pack were you investigating? If you don't mind sharing, what was the exact amount they quoted you? $60k for 23 kWh(including BMS) may indeed be the case, but it definitely sounds a bit high!...


The latest A123 pack I have been planning is also 22.7kWh. I do have a form from Kokam that I am supposed to submit for a quote, but haven't done it yet. Frodus suggested I consider them and we both did some math on them in a thread I had here on BMS. The Kokams were substantially higher than the A123s, which I guessed would cost about the same as you said. The serious Kokams also only have a 500 cycle charge life. That kind of adds to the cost over the long-term, because even a complete TT-ICE rebuild doesn't compare to a whole new pack.

The things you're not figuring are BMS, cases, connections, wiring, etc. As hard as these cells are pushed, and as expensive as they are, you want BMS. You also want good quality cases and connections. WZ's cases are made from 1/2" plexi, Lexan, or acrylic, or something. Again, if you can't do it all yourself - add labor.

The point is yes you can scrimp here and there, but there is a limit to that if you want to replicate the performance of the Zombie. It works and works well, consistently, because it's a quality effort from the whole WZ team.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> Wait for that second Zilla Z2K EHV to be installed in the WZ...


According to their discussions on the NEDRA Groups thing, it won't do any good because WZ is running the entire run in series now. It doesn't do the s/p switch anymore, and the Dow pack doesn't sag enough to matter. So basically it would do the same thing it's doing. He also had the Zilla in the car wired wrong and Otmar says it could eventually fail, so the other one may be a replacement.

I have since dismissed myself from their Yahoo Group so I don't know what the most current arguments have revealed.






Matthijs said:


> ...I wonder what happens if you strip out that Lingenfelter, put all WZ components in and put in the smallest battery pack enough to do 1 or 2 runs.


It'll go slower. It's too heavy. I know what you're probably thinking, but the ICE is not that heavy. An aluminum LS motor is under 400lbs. True you'll lose a little weight there, more in the whole TT setup and transaxle, but not enough to bring it down to WZ's weight. That little Datsun is a featherweight shell. His pack is only around 400lbs as well, so you won't loose a lot there, and might end up experiencing enough sag to hurt performance.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think WZ runs a Manzanita Micro.


Manzanita Micro PFC50. You could potentially run a cheaper charger to save a few bucks as it's not really part of the performance specs.


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> According to their discussions on the NEDRA Groups thing, it won't do any good because WZ is running the entire run in series now. It doesn't do the s/p switch anymore, and the Dow pack doesn't sag enough to matter. So basically it would do the same thing it's doing. He also had the Zilla in the car wired wrong and Otmar says it could eventually fail, so the other one may be a replacement.
> 
> I have since dismissed myself from their Yahoo Group so I don't know what the most current arguments have revealed.
> 
> ...


I was messing up the cars lol. I was actually thinking about that Corolla. Those radials and chassis look so balanced. 8 seconds flat without a wheelie bar. Thanks for the info on the second Zilla. To bad because I was expecting a performance boost. But the Dow Kokam pack at the current state can give more power than 1 Z2K can handle no?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> ...But the Dow Kokam pack at the current state can give more power than 1 Z2K can handle no?


Yup, IIRC, the Zilla is performing well even though it's being pushed beyond its intended limits. I expect Otmar to pull a rabbit out of his hat for WZ, though we may not know anything about it. WZ is the perfect beta tester for him to develop the next generation.

The Kokam-endowed WZ pushing the limits of the Zilla, Rocket threatening to push EVs into the sub-6-sec range, Berube suggesting that his big 13" motor can deal with 4000 amps, Big Sol under development, widespread automotive industry interest in electric, and new battery developments on a seemingly regular basis...

There are good things on the horizon for electric propulsion.  That's my point - it's developing its own momentum, and producing results. There's no need to stretch the truth or sweeten the facts - let them stand on their own merit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Matthijs said:


> I was messing up the cars lol. I was actually thinking about that Corolla. Those radials and chassis look so balanced. 8 seconds flat without a wheelie bar...


Yeah, that would be fun to see.

No wheelie bars is typical street-legal racing. There are cars running pretty wicked times without bars, and yes it's all about balance. I haven't seen any updates lately, but the Pro Street and/or Outlaw sportbikes were also running 7-teens, on the verge of 6s, the last I heard. Again, that's with no bar. Just a stretched out chassis, trick clutch, and big testicles.

The first time I ever saw a WZ video, I couldn't help thinking about what it would do with a serious chassis. The improvements he made for this season are working though. He's transferring weight much better, and lifting the front wheels. It just doesn't look stable enough for my tastes, beyond a 10.0 The Cal Tracs bars are working, but I'd like to see a well-designed four-link with a wishbone, and bigger tires. I understand his street car thing better though after looking at the NEDRA class rules. The mods I am suggesting would move it from Pro Street to Modified Street (I think that's the right terminology). He's trying to go as far as possible in the P/S class. That's what also changes the rules for a class. As the speed and ET increase sanctioning bodies have to allow more modifications in a class for safety. If NEDRA P/S is a mid-9 class, they will have to allow full 8.50 NHRA-spec cages, and probably 4-link rear suspensions, parachutes, etc, to make sure the guys drive them back down the return roads.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The following is written about the Siamese 9" that can be bought "off the shelf":



> The Dual Motors are new motors that are completly dissasembled, inspected, and then modified by Jim Husted with his improved twin motor design. This latest version keep the motors as single shafted motors which are coupled together by a splinded interface. This newest design is more user friendly for customer and repairs while retaining the reduced length and quality. This also allows the motors to be coupled with the motors facing the same direction for precise brush timing of the motors.
> After years of working on these motors Jim knows how to beef these baby's up to take the higher current and abuse that is typical in racing. These motors also make great Direct Drive daily drivers with all the get up and go you want (just add Voltage).
> 
> *Some of the modification are:
> ...


Sounds a lot like Wayland's motor to me. Wayland needed the shortened motor so that it could actually fit in the Zombie. The weight reduction from this is also highly beneficial for his setup. It also needed adjusted brush timing along with brushes that could withstand the higher current. Even with these upgraded brushes, when the car launches and pulls wheelies, you can sometimes see an orange glow underneath it; cooling is a must. If it has Jim Husted's name on it and a corresponding price, I highly doubt it isn't suited for racing as soon as it is shipped to your door! I wouldn't expect anything less from him. That being said, depending on the car you choose to convert, it may or may not fit.

This car is a piece of work. You are absolutely right about the amount of expertise that was necessary to put it together.

I can only dream of someday getting a chance to build an EV to this spec, and drive it... it would be quite a learning experience.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't doubt for a second that the off the shelf siamese 9 is a wicked little race motor. I would just expect to find a few more cutting edge tricks in WZ's motor.

For example, you can buy a Pro Stock Bike engine from Vance & Hines to run in the same series with their bikes - always could. You'd better be one heck of a tuner though to get your bike to run with theirs, on a consistent basis, on the track.  A good builder never really reveals all his secrets, meaning the production items you buy from them usually never have all the bells and whistles. Generally, you have to sign a non-disclosure for that, agreeing not to reveal them. Otherwise, a competitor could simply buy your motor, copy your tricks, and beat you at your own game!

That's all just nitpicking out of curiousity though, and in no way meant to discredit Jim or WZ. Kudos to them on their current accomplishments, and here's to the 9's!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I am all for comparing the WZ to any car out there, its deserved it. 

The WZ in the 10's is huge...The 10sec barrier is a pretty important accomplishment...And gassers running 8's and 9's....eh...not impressed....ICE technology has been getting continuous research and development year after year for how long now? And how many dedicated performance tuners are out there? Not really apples to apples...is it? More like apple orchard to single apple tree...

EVs and EV Tech will blow-up when cost/kwh, kwh/lb. and charging issues can be sorted out with the Batteries...Its always been about the batteries...that's why Chevron bought out the large format GM EV-1 battery technology and canceled it...to hold off the advancement till they could figure out how to get in on the profits...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I don't doubt for a second that the off the shelf siamese 9 is a wicked little race motor. I would just expect to find a few more cutting edge tricks in WZ's motor.


Maybe, but there simply aren't that many components and parameters in an electric motor that can be tweaked compared to an ICE.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Not too bad considering 10 years ago the fastest street legal drag cars weren't much faster than this. No slicks, etc.


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

If you would like a peak into the future performance of the ultimate electric dragster go to an NHRA national event and watch top fuel. The 8000 lb/ft of torque these monsters produce can't even be fully used for the first 1.5 seconds because there's just not enough traction. The 8000 hp they produce will be a little tougher to duplicate but in a few years who knows.
I think the dragster is the best packaging for batteries and motor anyway, probably could fit a 24" motor in if you could find or build a high rpm motor. That should be the test bed for all the drag race testing I think. If your going to give anyone $100K to help develop motor and battery tech do it with a dragster team, they can make motor and/or battery changes a lot easier. Plus if $100K would make a big difference in development why not just talk to the teams that already spend $100K in a weekend and work out a deal using their resources.
Maybe I just set the bar too high for EV's but I think 10.258 is surely worth a handshake but hardly worth a world wide praise. I think the large steps WZ had made over the past couple years supports my opinion. When we see the low 9's "GAME ON"


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

2cycle said:


> If you would like a peak into the future performance of the ultimate electric dragster go to an NHRA national event and watch top fuel. The 8000 lb/ft of torque these monsters produce can't even be fully used for the first 1.5 seconds because there's just not enough traction. The 8000 hp they produce will be a little tougher to duplicate but in a few years who knows.


Three Kostovs may produce that amount of torque. A team of University students who designed(but didn't build) an electric dragster to compete with "Current Eliminator" in 1999 projected that at 1600A, the Kostov 11" produces 2,700 lb-ft. It would only produce this up to about 500 rpm at 336V.

http://home.comcast.net/~dcreuter/EV_DRAGSTER.PDF

Those motors would not last long under those conditions, either.

Getting that amount of horsepower, on the other hand, in a light enough package to compete, is certainly not feasible at this time.

If I had the money, I'd consider building an electric pickup truck for a towing competition. Diesels don't have shit on electric motor torque(diesels are quite torquey; I own one). It's power that is the limiting factor of electric motors for racing applications, especially continuous power(in the case of circuit racing).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could always start small like this: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42247


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I say motorcycle drag racing is the best route. We're almost there in that class already.

Rocket is a couple tenths away from the back of the NHRA Pro Stock Bike field. The only problem is Rocket is a laydown T/F style bike. If Killacycle (a P/S style bike) rises to the challenge it would put electric dragbikes in the running. From there it's just a matter of bugging the NHRA until they allow exhibitions passes, and then petitioning them until they write e-bikes into the rules; the same way they did for the Harleys. At first they bent the rules in the Harley's favor to make them competitive, then they bent them back to slow them down a bit. The same thing could happen with electric P/S bikes.

The new high-power pouch cells have even higher power density than the famed A123 M1s. That would allow a little less weight = faster bikes. Also, if NHRA wrote them in the rules, and a few teams picked up sponsors they would have enough financial backing and pull to get the battery manufacturers to pitch in and develop drag race specific cells that can be pushed even harder. There is already a claimed 142lb/2000amp/335volt pack getting ready to hit the track. Imagine that pack in a bike...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> There is already a claimed 142lb/2000amp/335volt pack getting ready to hit the track. Imagine that pack in a bike...


Imagine that pack in White Zombie, only about 30 lbs more batteries added to up the current... it would lose more than 300 lbs.

Low 9s @ 140 mph? Tires would probably be the limiting factor... its range would drop to lead acid levels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> Imagine that pack in White Zombie, only about 30 lbs more batteries added to up the current... it would lose more than 300 lbs.
> 
> Low 9s @ 140 mph? Tires would probably be the limiting factor... its range would drop to lead acid levels.


That depends on a few things. One is whether or not it would start to sag. WZ is over twice the weight of Rocket, and would be nearly three times the weight of a P/S e-bike with the same 142lb pack. The idea of reducing the size of his current pack to increase performance was discussed on Yahoo too, and it doesn't sound like it would pay off. The current levels of performance are possible because his pack is so freakin stout it can deliver everything the motors can take. As you mentioned, that would also kill his goal of having a street car. Being able to drive 100 miles on a charge goes along way in legitmizing that claim.

Actually, a full round-tube chassis and wrinkle wall slicks would probably put WZ in the low 9s, maybe even high 8s. To fulfill his street car promise he has to leave a lot of potential ET at the starting line.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

Ahh, I thought that the pack proposed for that bike was stout enough to handle the 2000A without too much sag...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> Ahh, I thought that the pack proposed for that bike was stout enough to handle the 2000A without too much sag...


That 142lb pack is going in someone's car - I can't remember the guy's name, or what the car is. IIRC, he said he will only have like 25 miles or something for range. I think it's easy to underestimate just how badass WZ's new Kokam pack is. I understand because I have been toying with the idea of such a pack for many months now.

There was a thread here in the performance section about racing and ultimate performance, and the gurus like Major, Tesseract, and Qer, weighed in. The then-current performance of the drag racers was dissected, and some graphs were even presented and analyzed. The key point that stuck out to me was Tesseract's assumption that it was a lack of battery power that was holding the drag racers back in the last half of the race. I "got" what he was saying and started working on the idea of a monster pack that would not quit, would not sag, would not bow, until the race was over or something broke.

WZ and Rocket have proven that assumption to be valid because, now that they both have superhero-sized packs, they just keep going faster and faster. The challenge now is getting the power of the pack applied to the track and converted into forward motion. Interestingly enough, WZ runs Husted siamese 9s, and Rocket runs a single Berube 13, and both seem to be totally unfazed with the incredible amount of power being pushed through them. There was, and continues to be, a lot of debate about what motor configuration is best. As long as it can take the juice, that doesn't even seem to be a serious consideration anymore. Just get the one that fits you and your vehicle, and find a way to get some high-power lithium batteries hooked up to it.

The point is the main concentration should be on building the baddest pack you can come up with. Overdo it, at least a little, and back the power off in the controller. That way you know it's there when you need it. In ICE racing, most engines are overbuilt for durability. Only classes like Top Fuel and Funny Car use every single ounce of capability the engine can give in a single run. That is impractical unless you are a multimillionaire, or have the backing of a multimillion dollar company. Likewise, for an EV, over-build the battery pack so that you're not pushing it to the ragged edge every time you want to explore the vehicle's maximum performance.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I think that the controllers will be next to be found wanting - the Zilla 2k seems to be okay for now for WZ, but it might prove to be a limit on performance even for him quite soon. That new pack seems to ask for something like a super-Zilla or super-Soliton

Dawid


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The next step is to build a 3,000A controller. It has been discussed that the 13" Netgain motor should be capable of handling this amount of current reliably, if properly modified. "White Zombie" has in the past done somewhere near this amount of current with its contactor bypass installed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> I think that the controllers will be next to be found wanting - the Zilla 2k seems to be okay for now for WZ, but it might prove to be a limit on performance even for him quite soon. That new pack seems to ask for something like a super-Zilla or super-Soliton
> 
> Dawid





The Toecutter said:


> The next step is to build a 3,000A controller...


All you need for that is a little patience. I have the sneaking suspicion that issue is being addressed. 





The Toecutter said:


> ...It has been discussed that the 13" Netgain motor should be capable of handling this amount of current reliably, if properly modified. "White Zombie" has in the past done somewhere near this amount of current with its contactor bypass installed.


He may have also been dumping as much on the siamese 9s recently when he had the controller wired wrong. IIRC, it was basically dumping the full pack into the motors - which were apparently unscatched, by the way. Berube also claims his 13s can handle 4K amps. He said the 13 in Rocket was pulled out of the truck and sold to Lawless, without needing a major rebuild. Shawn has been hammering it ever-since, and there still hasn't been any mention of needing service or rebuild.

Electric drag racing is sure to be exciting over the next year as they have the right components now, and just need to get everything working in harmony. To its credit, the Zillas are still getting the job done, even though they may be in over their heads. I would guess Otmar is working on potential fixes for any possible weaknesses, to keep the current gen Zillas running, as well as plans for future generations. The mad scientists at EVNetics have their finger on the pulse as well.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I revisited Tesseract's thread about their new models. The new Bad-Ass version (Soliton 2) was proposed as 2500A for short duration and 2000A continous. This seems like a nice match to WZ at this moment. The pack has a reasonable high voltage (355V) which I think suits the Solitons better than the current Zilla. According the the rerports I have seen, they are close to, but not on the limit of the Zilla. 

The amount of abuse these motors can handle is quite impressive. I do not believe we have seen the maximum that they can take in a dragrace. Longer-term abuse is not worth noting in this context.

If Plasmaboy wants a lighter vehicle to experiment with, here in South Africa we had a pick-up (mini-truck) version of his 72 datsun. Production was stopped only last year, so spares are plentiful and new. I knew a number of guys who used these bakkies, as we call them locally, as a cheap way into dragracing. They weighed in at 600kg nett, whigh is pretty low.

Good luck to PlasmaBoy, White Zombie and their team. May you guys break the 9 sec barrier before end of this racing season.

Dawid


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> .
> 
> Electric drag racing is sure to be exciting over the next year as they have the right components now, and just need to get everything working in harmony. To its credit, the Zillas are still getting the job done, even though they may be in over their heads. I would guess Otmar is working on potential fixes for any possible weaknesses, to keep the current gen Zillas running, as well as plans for future generations. The mad scientists at EVNetics have their finger on the pulse as well.


Sorry Todd. As you can see in my (Previous) reply I took a bit of away time to check stuff. If These 13" motors can truly handle 4kA, then I believe that QER and Tesseract has their aim slightly low - even WZ can currently handle more amps than the design they were talking about. It would be a pity if nobody was looking at a 5kA controller - ie 2xSoliton (BA) 2. 

Two more thoughts that I have as far as performance controllers are concerned:
1. Getting a decent master-slave setup going in a new controller. Please guys - it need be no more sophisticated than pumping current current levels to the slave - we are using current control and can neglect all the other fancy stuff. That will make running multiple drives so much easier.
2. There don't seem to be a lot of really large (1000A+) single IGBT modules on the market. I wonder what has happened to those big modules, because we use some at work, and while scrounging around for some other spares, I found 4 1000A Powerex modules (1200V rating). Now THAT will be a monster

Dawid


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Dawid , how big do they make igbt's


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> Sorry Todd. As you can see in my (Previous) reply I took a bit of away time to check stuff. If These 13" motors can truly handle 4kA, then I believe that QER and Tesseract has their aim slightly low...


No worries, as I said, they have their finger on the pulse... 

The other thing to consider is putting 4000 amps on the track. In a 13" motor you're talking about a pretty good dose of torque. Until someone builds a T/F or F/C chassis to put the motor and controller in, I don't think 4000 amps is going to do anyone any good anyway. I think the real issue right now is going to be how precisely the controller can control the application of that power. There I expect Big Sol to shine. 

To illustrate the point, T/F, F/C, P/S-Bike, P/S (I think), all use slider type clutches. The crewchief tunes the clutch to lock up over a certain time period, according to how much traction is available on the track. The same setup could be adapted to an electric race vehicle, but there is already the ability to do this with the controller. To compete in NHRA Pro classes though a mechanical means will probably be mandated - they're not big on high-tech control.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> Dawid , how big do they make igbt's


You can get real bog IGBT's. Powerex have some 4000Amp 6000Volt IGBT's on their website, if I am not mistaken. Some places allow you to place special orders. However I suspect their prices go up faster than either Amp or voltage ratings, and in general the highest rating is 600A, 600V or 450A, 1200/1700V.

It is the general availability of these real big IGBT's that will hamper anyone doing a DIY drive, as you cannot go to a dealer and buy it off the shelf. It is also frustrating to me that, say a 1000A device is not readily available. Using IGBT's in parallel is not too difficult, but it means a driver circiut for each IGBT. These big IGBT's are, in any case, several dies matched and paralleled by the manufacturer. It means they have done some of the hard work for you.

Now if we can get enough guys to buy Big Sol's so as to give QER and Tesseract some pull in the market 

Dawid


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I picked up 6 1000 amp power max's a year ago @ about 125.00 ea. what are they going for these days


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

Is it possible to siamese 2 or 3 of the 13" motors together to make enough power in a rail.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

2cycle said:


> Is it possible to siamese 2 or 3 of the 13" motors together to make enough power in a rail.


Why not? CroDriver had two 11's siamesed. By rail, I'm assuming you mean dragster?


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

yeah dragster. I am also rethinking my old brainstorm ideas about an electric snowmobile. They are so inefficient that it takes quite a lot of power to make one go fast, 1 9" motor just can't cut it. After hearing about siamesed 9" motors I think that's what I need in the sled. Which leads me to think that a dragster has the perfect engine mounting area to stuff siamesed 13's. The rpm will be the big hurdle though. T/F dragsters get their speed from the ability to rev to the moon (for a 500ci big block) because the run time is so short it's just a burst in overspeed. I have a friend who's building a new dragster and I would like him to try something like this. I tried to convince him that he should go with a custom 2 cycle engine first but he doesn't want to experiment quite that much, even after I explained to him the most powerful vehicle engine/motor ever is still a 2 stroke. His class competition will be 1000-1200 hp so wouldn't that be siamesed 11's?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

2cycle said:


> yeah dragster...
> 
> His class competition will be 1000-1200 hp so wouldn't that be siamesed 11's?


Yeah, siamese 11's should get you there. If he has the budget for Warp 11HVs he could theoretically spin them fast enough as well.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

On an interesting note, John Wayland's October 2nd entry on his site also makes a comparison between the "White Zombie" and the world's fastest production cars:



> I love all of these cars, but I’ve always had a special place in my heart for the Porsche Turbo – it’s a badass machine with blistering 0-60 and 1/4 mile performance! The 2011 Turbo is simply over the top! It is one of very few production gas cars no matter what the price, that can run 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Years ago I thought it would be super cool, if I could ever make my electrified Datsun out-accelerate a 911Turbo, but Porsche being Porsche, always keeps raising the ante! This year their Turbo dipped into the 2s in the 0-60 run and into the rarified 10 second ET region of the standing 1/4! With exception to the 1.4 million dollar 1005 hp Bugatti Veyron, the Porsche’s stats are simply the best for any production gas car you can buy…period! Nonetheless, I am happy to report that in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 ET, the Zombie now outguns this icon!
> 
> 
> As always, a disclaimer before the comparo list that follows. Yes, the Zombie is not a production car you can buy, it’s a purpose built drag machine, it’s about 1200-1300 lbs. lighter than these cars, and with its high end Dow Kokam batteries it’s no longer a $15,000 car. If put in regular production, the battery pack might be in the $30,000 range, so it would be fair to project the cost of the Zombie to about $50,000 – gad, a $50,000 Datsun? The Zombie cannot begin to compete with these exotic machines when it comes to handling, top speed, comfort, and fit and finish. On the other side of things, the Zombie is a home built car without the benefit of the R&D a high end car manufacturer has at its disposal. The Zombie is still way cheaper than any of these cars, it achieves it’s performance without a drop of gas and gets the equivalent of about 200 mpg, and is still after all, a converted econo-box! It’s also fully street legal and is indeed now regularly driven practical distances with its 110-120 mile range per charge.


http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/

Unlike the exotics above where you have to get the shift points exactly right and start with the right amount of throttle, the White Zombie is a machine that allows its maximum performance to be reached with far less effort.

IMO, that's a major selling point of EVs for street use.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The Porsche has launch control. You floor the gas and pop the clutch and the electronics take care of the details for an awesome launch. From the videos White Zombies looks trickier to launch.


The Toecutter said:


> On an interesting note, John Wayland's October 2nd entry on his site also makes a comparison between the "White Zombie" and the world's fastest production cars:
> 
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> ...Unlike the exotics above where you have to get the shift points exactly right and start with the right amount of throttle, the White Zombie is a machine that allows its maximum performance to be reached with far less effort.
> 
> IMO, that's a major selling point of EVs for street use.





DavidDymaxion said:


> The Porsche has launch control. You floor the gas and pop the clutch and the electronics take care of the details for an awesome launch. From the videos White Zombies looks trickier to launch.


Also, the trend in modern sports cars is towards paddle shifters controlling very sophisticated transmissions and clutches. It's like F1 technology for the street, and the only skill you need is enough to pull a paddle. If you don't have that, just put it in "automatic" mode and enjoy the ride. As David pointed out, there is no drama in the launch - just step on it and go.

As I continue to say, it's stupid to even do this. The comparisons aren't even necessary. WZ's performance is enough to stand on its own. If you say 10.25 @ 125mph, people are impressed. When you say it can blow the doors off this or that, you open the doors for people to realize something is off in the comparison, and begin to question things. It raises flags as to why there was a need to stretch the facts to make the point.

If you put drag radials on one of those exotics, or street tires on Zombie, and run them at the same place/same time the results may surprise some people.

Saying _"If put in regular production, the battery pack might be in the $30,000 range, so it would be fair to project the cost of the Zombie to about $50,000..." _sounds like a slick sales pitch that uses unsubstantiated facts to make a point. Again, it's just not necessary to make the point - the performance data did that on its own. A good sales person knows when to shut up. When enough facts have been disclosed to make the sale, and any additional contributions will push the buyer from interest to annoyance and possibly skepticism.

I'm just being honest about all this guys and trying to get you to see how this comes across outside the EV bubble. I am a recent convert, and I will admit that I am not yet totally sold. I believe in electric 100%, I'm just not sure how much I want it in my life yet. When I hear this kind of crap, it makes me want to sell everything and go the other way. I joined NEDRA's Yahoo Group for a few weeks, and removed myself from the premises because I don't want to be associated with them in any way, shape, or form. I'm fighting to keep myself in EVs, but the fantasies and fact twisting make it hard. I have to constantly remind myself of why I am even building an EV, because all the hyperbole is nauseating.

ATTENTION ALL EVers, especially drag racers: The vehicles are standing on their own merit - SHUT UP, and let them "sell" on their own merit!!!! Your efforts to convince people are going to make them skeptical and suspicious, and do more harm than good!!!


EVs are slower than ICE (dollar for dollar), for now...
EVs are really expensive
EVs have limited range and are impractical for many people/applications
EVs are NOT going to dominate the market place any time soon, it will be decades before they even come close to that
EVs are a tiny little niche market
The major manufacturers are using EVs to present themselves a green and responsible, meet CAFE, and keep a toe in the door for when a switch is really necessary.
Without being subsidized, the current production EVs would cease to exist.

EVs are AWESOME, needing no justification (get over the insecurities of being belittled in the past and stand on who you are now - aren't you tired of carrying that chip on your shoulder?)
EVs are incredibly fun, and cool!
EVs have enormous potential for performance and racing (that is currently still behind ICE, but developing at a fairly swift pace)
EVs will EVENTUALLY be our future, and this is the time to push them as hard as possible now - HONESTLY - to make sure it happens later
Just let the facts stand as they are...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

After years of mostly negative hyperbole about EV's you'll have to excuse us if we go a bit over the top sometimes. There has been enough negative exaggeration about the limitations of EV's that some overcompensation is to be expected. Truth is the general public knows nothing about racing so the things that may irritate you simply sound impressive to the masses. Sure Zombie is a race vehicle, but the truth is it can blow away many more expensive production vehicles in certain parameters. Of course it's not an apples to apples comparison but few people will pick out the nuances as long as the facts are accurate.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Does he use drag slicks? I thought they were street legal radials, Drag radials sure, but you can't compare street legal drag radials to actual drag slicks that are only legal to use at the track. With street legal radials it's few who ever even get into the 9's simply; because it gets nearly impossible to put the power to the pavement.

It's been a while since I kept up with the street legal drag scene, but back when I did The fastest car was a 1st gen Eclipse in the high 8's. The reason he got there was; because his car was AWD.

I'm in no way saying electrics are up to the power level of gas drag cars; because they're not. They are however closing the gap pretty quickly. One of the really interesting things about an electric street legal drag car is it doesn't become all but undriveable on the street. You're not dealing with big cams, ultra lightweight flywheels, and ridiculously loud exhaust systems that make them a chore to actually just drive normally.

There are also a lot of possibilities in setting records and trying new things; since it's still in it's infancy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> Does he use drag slicks?...


I didn't, and don't believe anyone else suggested putting wrinkle walls on anything. I said put drag radials, like Zombie uses, on the exotics; or put regular street tires on Zombie, to even things out. Never suggested wrinke walls.





jeremyjs said:


> ...One of the really interesting things about an electric street legal drag car is it doesn't become all but undriveable on the street. You're not dealing with big cams, ultra lightweight flywheels, and ridiculously loud exhaust systems that make them a chore to actually just drive normally...


Modern street combinations are just as civil. With turbos or superchargers, and intercooling, they can drive just like the grocery-getter in the garage next to them. The guys who are still running naturally-aspirated, big cam, engines with loud exhausts are usually doing so because they like that sort of thing. Go back a few pages and look at the Lingenfelter Vette and the Lambo in the videos. Twin turbo engines that idle like normal, are relatively quiet, and completely civil until unleased.


Once again, I like electric propulsion I'm just being honest about where it is. I don't want to be portrayed as a con artist, a shady used-car salesman type, or being lost in a fantasy world, with twisted claims about what its capable of. I chose it for the Inhaler because there are no cooling, exhaust, and fuel systems to design around. I get nearly the same power, in a much neater package - albeit for a little more money. A twin-turbo V8 would cost about as much as my battery pack will, but would have tubing, wiring, and crap everywhere. The advantage is I could NEVER package this much power in the same space, as neatly, as I can with electric.





jeremyjs said:


> ...I'm in no way saying electrics are up to the power level of gas drag cars; because they're not. They are however closing the gap pretty quickly...


That's the fun part. It may not be there yet, but it's coming... We don't need to boltser it with shady claims, but ICE does need to keep an eye over its shoulder.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The Porsche has launch control. You floor the gas and pop the clutch and the electronics take care of the details for an awesome launch. From the videos White Zombies looks trickier to launch.


Have you read Wayland's explanation of their first night launch troubles?
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/
It seems they had mis-wired the Zilla so it was running in an unregulated flat-out mode. Scary powerful.
Gerhard


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

There is a big difference in controlling the torque in an ICE against controlling it in any electric motor. At work, we position large steel plates within 1mm using electric motors - it is simply not possible using any other power source except maybe hydraulics (which is much harder to do properly ). Built-in launch control for any drive (Zilla, solitron etc ) is relatively easy if you have current and speed feedback. Any of these fancy control systems used on ICE (those that work in conjunction with abs, ebd and the rest of the alphabet ) can be replicated with proper programming in modern drives. It is the ease of controlling an electric motor that I prefer, as against the complexity of trying to do the same with an ICE.

Regards
Dawid


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

GerhardRP said:


> Have you read Wayland's explanation of their first night launch troubles?
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/
> It seems they had mis-wired the Zilla so it was running in an unregulated flat-out mode. Scary powerful.
> Gerhard



Thanks for the link. Very informative. Looks like he has the power available. Now he just need to tune and tweak his setup to break into the 9's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> ...It is the ease of controlling an electric motor that I prefer, as against the complexity of trying to do the same with an ICE.
> 
> Regards
> Dawid


I agree with that 100%, and the potential I see there is one of the reasons I converted my street rod. Just the fact that it is possible to move six or seven feet with just a few turns of the motor (direct drive) is incredible. An ICE would be spinning at least seven hundred rpm, and slipping the clutch or spinning fluid in the torque converter to do the same. It's just an efficient process, from beginning to end. Like I said, there are tons of virtues to extol and a growing list of real accomplishments to brag about. It really is the future. I'm still married happily to ICE, but have a nice fling going with electric. 




jeremyjs said:


> ...Now he just need to tune and tweak his setup to break into the 9's.


If it were earlier in the year, I would expect that to happen this season. Weather becomes a factor soon, that may prolong that until next season. The other thing is competition is needed. Now that he has the right setup, he needs someone constantly challenging him to step it up. Nothing like competition to push things to new levels.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Can't remember if this has been posted here, and it looks interesting...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I had read that, but the car has a history of overcooking and spinning the wheels -- they also have to fuss with controller settings -- they have also worked hard to get the car to mechanically hook up and it still spins sometimes. It's not as simple to launch as a Porsche with launch control even if it is working perfectly.


GerhardRP said:


> Have you read Wayland's explanation of their first night launch troubles?
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/
> It seems they had mis-wired the Zilla so it was running in an unregulated flat-out mode. Scary powerful.
> Gerhard


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I had read that, but the car has a history of overcooking and spinning the wheels -- they also have to fuss with controller settings -- they have also worked hard to get the car to mechanically hook up and it still spins sometimes. It's not as simple to launch as a Porsche with launch control even if it is working perfectly.


That's because it has 225mm section width tires. Drag radials are awesome, but that's just not enough tire on the track. They were even narrower before. He needs at least a 275mm (I'd prefer 315s with that much torque) in a drag radial, and more sidewall. That means the rear end needs to be narrowed and the frame rails narrowed, to get the right size tires under the body. At the same time the front tires need to get sucked inside the fenders, and the whole thing lowered to a more modern drag race ride height.

All that would move him outof the NEDRA Pro Street class though, and JW seems to be determined to stay in it. I would be more determined to find the little Datsun's max potential at this point...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The Porsche has launch control. You floor the gas and pop the clutch and the electronics take care of the details for an awesome launch. From the videos White Zombies looks trickier to launch.


I stand corrected then.

I recall seeing a video of a Porsche 911 from the early 2000s, and its launch was pathetic compared to the TZero it was racing, given that the TZero had a very well designed traction control system. The technology to give the same advantage to a gasoline car has come a long way...



toddshotrods said:


> Also, the trend in modern sports cars is towards paddle shifters controlling very sophisticated transmissions and clutches. It's like F1 technology for the street, and the only skill you need is enough to pull a paddle.


The user will still need the necessary reflexes and knowledge of their vehicle's torque curve and gearing to hit the right shift points. This can make a huge difference in your 0-60 time.



> If you don't have that, just put it in "automatic" mode and enjoy the ride. As David pointed out, there is no drama in the launch - just step on it and go.


Point taken.



> As I continue to say, it's stupid to even do this. The comparisons aren't even necessary. WZ's performance is enough to stand on its own. If you say 10.25 @ 125mph, people are impressed. When you say it can blow the doors off this or that, you open the doors for people to realize something is off in the comparison, and begin to question things. It raises flags as to why there was a need to stretch the facts to make the point.


If it really can blow the doors off of a stated vehicle, then it isn't stretching a fact; it is a fact. That being said, the comparison may not be "apples to apples".



> sounds like a slick sales pitch that uses unsubstantiated facts to make a point. Again, it's just not necessary to make the point - the performance data did that on its own. A good sales person knows when to shut up.


If anyone outside of Dow Kokam would know the facts surrounding this pack(cost), John Wayland is it...

As far as the outside observer is concerned, the $30,000 price would indeed be unsubstantiated. I still haven't heard back from Dow Kokam with regard to my inquiry, either.



> I'm just being honest about all this guys and trying to get you to see how this comes across outside the EV bubble. I am a recent convert, and I will admit that I am not yet totally sold. I believe in electric 100%, I'm just not sure how much I want it in my life yet. When I hear this kind of crap, it makes me want to sell everything and go the other way. I joined NEDRA's Yahoo Group for a few weeks, and removed myself from the premises because I don't want to be associated with them in any way, shape, or form. I'm fighting to keep myself in EVs, but the fantasies and fact twisting make it hard. I have to constantly remind myself of why I am even building an EV, because all the hyperbole is nauseating.


Why you're building an EV is the most important reason for you building it. Don't let others' opinions, even if you may not agree with them, change your mind.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you're going to put together one hell of a car, and look forward to seeing you do just that.



> ATTENTION ALL EVers, especially drag racers: The vehicles are standing on their own merit - SHUT UP, and let them "sell" on their own merit!!!! Your efforts to convince people are going to make them skeptical and suspicious, and do more harm than good!!!


That depends on who you're trying to convince. John Q Public is a much different animal than your experienced drag racer, with different opinion of what a "fast" car is.

Most of the 'facts' you list below are either debatable or not the an "apples to apples" comparison...



> EVs are slower than ICE (dollar for dollar), for now...


The ICE enjoys an economy of scale the EV never had, which is largely responsible for this.

The hotrodders of the 1950s faced a similar 'cost' issue faced by the EVers of today, because the economy of scale for performance parts did not exist then. People were hand building their own parts or getting sponsorships for components, just like EVers do today.



> EVs are really expensive


If hand built and/or using technology not yet produced in volume(like the Tesla Roadster), yes.

But you can build an EV viable for commuting for $500 in if you look around(see "Forkenswift").

As far as mass producing an EV goes, James Worden's Solectria Sunrise, according to him(he was the designer), would have been a $20,000 car in mass production, with 200 miles range, in 1996. It even had the expense spent to get it NHTSA approved. The major automakers wouldn't touch it!

There exist studies that suggest a mass produced EV could be competitive(see "Evaluation of Electric Vehicle Production and Operating Costs" by Cuenca and Gaines, a perspective on the viability of EV technology from the 1990s).

As far as per mile operating costs, they are all over the place, ranging from _"will never break even with gasoline internal combustion even at $10/gallon"_ to _"is the cheapest possible highway capable vehicle you could drive, barring none"_. It depends on a variety of factors, including the chassis chosen, the battery, the conversion setup, ect. There are plenty of conversions that break even at less than $2.00/gallon gas factoring in periodic battery replacement(example: Brian Matheny's S10 conversion, "Polar Bear", whos pack of flooded batteries lasted 45,000 miles before being sold; he claims the break even point was $1.60/gallon, but the batteries were also cheaper back when he purchased them).



> EVs have limited range and are impractical for many people/applications


True, but this is a design issue. Even lead acid conversions can get Tesla roadster-like ranges(example: Dave Cloud's "Dolphin", a streamlined and modified Geo Metro chassis, gets 200 miles range at 65 mph on golf cart batteries).

That being said, you won't be able to take a road trip with one until range starts to approach 500 miles at highway speeds of 65+ mph, where one could stop at a campsite or hotel and recharge while they sleep, to continue driving for 8+ hours the next day. The technology is certainly there to do it, but a car that is sufficiently streamlined with a large enough pack is needed to do this.

For 90% of the population, a 100 mile range would be suitable for their "second car". We've had that technology in the early 1990s with an uncompromised vehicle with all the bells and whistles still using lead acid batteries(see GM Impact; a four seater version of the EV1 was also designed, but never built. Also see AC Propulsion's lead acid conversions of the 1990s); we could even do 80 miles range in the 1970s with a very limited application niche vehicle(see Exide Sundancer).



> EVs are a tiny little niche market
> 
> EVs are NOT going to dominate the market place any time soon, it will be decades before they even come close to that


That 'tiny niche market' seems to be due to the lack of _mass produced_ EVs on the market. Demand for these products is significant(however large or small, but provided range is at least 80 miles, no less than a car like a Toyota Prius if many market studies are to be believed).

Then there is Europe, where gasoline is $10/gallon or more. The major automakers have ignored that market for so long when there are literally millions of potential sales there; even the batteries used in the Tesla are economical at that price.

If we must rely on the major automakers to get them out, then I agree with your point. A small startup, on the other hand, if they gain a foothold in the market, could prove this assertion completely wrong.

How many people do you think would buy a $20,000 EV that could comfortably seat 5 people, do 200 miles range at 65 mph with the air conditioner running, and reach a top speed of 75 mph? The technology to do this existed in 1996(see Solectria Sunrise; this car set a range record in the Tour De Sol of 373 miles on a charge, but the driving practices to achieve this were extremely conservative. It is very unfortunate that an oil company gained control of the battery technology this car used, but lithium batteries will likely surpass them in mass production cost/kWh before the patent expires anyway.).



> The major manufacturers are using EVs to present themselves a green and responsible, meet CAFE, and keep a toe in the door for when a switch is really necessary.


This is true.

If they were truly serious about building them, they'd have been in dealer lots 10+ years ago. If they were truly serious about building them, people like John Wayland, with 5 figure budgets to work with, would certainly not be setting the world records when the big automakers have billions of dollars at their disposal.

Small startups, seeing the merits of this technology, are a real threat to the major automakers should they succeed in getting affordable products to market. The majors are playing catch-up.



> Without being subsidized, the current production EVs would cease to exist.


Depends on which ones. From the major automakers, this is true. In fact, without subsidy, two of America's major car makers wouldn't even exist.



> EVs are AWESOME, needing no justification (get over the insecurities of being belittled in the past and stand on who you are now - aren't you tired of carrying that chip on your shoulder?)
> EVs are incredibly fun, and cool!
> EVs have enormous potential for performance and racing (that is currently still behind ICE, but developing at a fairly swift pace)
> EVs will EVENTUALLY be our future, and this is the time to push them as hard as possible now - HONESTLY - to make sure it happens later


All 100% true.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> That being said, you won't be able to take a road trip with one until range starts to approach 500 miles at highway speeds of 65+ mph, where one could stop at a campsite or hotel and recharge while they sleep, to continue driving for 8+ hours the next day.


I disagree with this. Fast charging is possible and charge stations are being built. I think around a 200 mile highway range with a moderate network of fast charge stations will make road trips quite feasible. I'm more than happy to get out of the car for 15 minutes or so after 200 miles. A 500 mile battery pack makes no more sense than a 700 mile gas tank, it's just not necessary.


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## 2cycle (Jul 2, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Also, the trend in modern sports cars is towards paddle shifters controlling very sophisticated transmissions and clutches. It's like F1 technology for the street, and the only skill you need is enough to pull a paddle. If you don't have that, just put it in "automatic" mode and enjoy the ride. As David pointed out, there is no drama in the launch - just step on it and go.
> 
> As I continue to say, it's stupid to even do this. The comparisons aren't even necessary. WZ's performance is enough to stand on its own. If you say 10.25 @ 125mph, people are impressed. When you say it can blow the doors off this or that, you open the doors for people to realize something is off in the comparison, and begin to question things. It raises flags as to why there was a need to stretch the facts to make the point.
> 
> ...


Well said Todd. You are very right about just letting it sell itself in time. No need to compare to ice so much and just twist facts. I think Killacycle is an awesome piece of work, it's really what drew me to the thought of racing an EV. I honestly didn't think they were that far yet and I guess I was wrong. They would be crazy to start bragging up Killacycle too much because the facts are it's still a lot slower than "street legal" drag bikes (7.13 @ 200+mph) with no wheelie bar AND DOT tires. Killacycle has lots of people looking and thinking. The new entry from Lawless is a top fuel style bike which goes good but hardly needing that wheelbase, but it was a big step for that builder and I applaud them.
WZ is awesome on it's own, but the comparison to the porsche is just as funny as the Bugatti. If you lined up the Porsche, Bugatti and WZ on the street with their DOT tires on them the WZ would get embarrassed. He's comparing his drag slick set up to street tires on the others. Again, not apples to apples.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I disagree with this. Fast charging is possible and charge stations are being built. I think around a 200 mile highway range with a moderate network of fast charge stations will make road trips quite feasible. I'm more than happy to get out of the car for 15 minutes or so after 200 miles. A 500 mile battery pack makes no more sense than a 700 mile gas tank, it's just not necessary.



I have to agree. The fast charging batteries/EV's will be here before we know it. The packs in the leaf will be capable of this. Granted it's only an 80% charge. I'd assume it simply abbreviates the CV phase of charging, but I simply don't know. A123's prismatics are also in production and by all reports they should be capable of fast charging also. Even more so than the LiMn chemistry in the leaf. The fact is that batteries that are capable of this are in production today. At this time though they're only available to the big players. I'd be more than happy with an EV with 200 miles of range and can be fast charged.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

If someone was throwing as much money towards performance EV's as is spend by a single company on F1 alone, things would already start looking much better. Todd, I think you are right about there not being enough competition. A single (or 2, or 3 ) fast EV does not make a summer. If EV's get banned from racing against road cars (ICE) in dragracing, because they are simply too fast for the old tech, then we know we are going in the right direction.

BTW, given the direction RC flying has gone, I do not think we have long to wait. Apart from the batteries, WZ use old technology (Drives that has been on the market > 4 years are really old stuff). The push for more performance should see more, bigger, better drives out there, together with bigger motors.

There might not be a lot of high performance EV's out there, but I see the number steadily increasing. There is already 1 more 12s ev (cro-driver's emw ) and he has expressed his intention of breaking into 10s. It would not take long for this slow push to become steady, and then a torrent, leaving ICE behind eventually. However, someone had to start pushing, and that is what plasmaboy (Jim) Wayland did.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

2cycle said:


> If you lined up the Porsche, Bugatti and WZ on the street with their DOT tires on them the WZ would get embarrassed. He's comparing his drag slick set up to street tires on the others. Again, not apples to apples.


WZ uses street legal tires.. after the race, they just pump them up and drive home.
Now, if I were on their crew , I would gear the car so that on an ideal track, with the motor at full current, the wheels would barely squeek.That way, max torque would be delivered the longest.
Gerhard


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I disagree with this. Fast charging is possible and charge stations are being built. I think around a 200 mile highway range with a moderate network of fast charge stations will make road trips quite feasible. I'm more than happy to get out of the car for 15 minutes or so after 200 miles. A 500 mile battery pack makes no more sense than a 700 mile gas tank, it's just not necessary.


Fast charge infrastructure is not yet built around the U.S., even if the technology was viable and demonstrated during the 1990s(see Aerovironment). Were it not for the actions of the Western States Petroleum Association, we'd probably at least have had this infrastructure all over California and all along Route 66. Southern California Edison was in fact prepared to build it!

Without such infrastructure being a common sight in the U.S., about 500 miles is necessary for a road trip.

The Zombie's battery is perfect for fast charging as well. Today's version would probably take to a 10-15 minute full charge from empty without a problem, and past iterations of the Zombie have used a technique called "dump charging", where it would be charged from another battery pack very rapidly(< 30 minutes). A fast charge station suitable for fast charging an EV basically consumes as much power as that produced by a small power plant...

Rich Rudman's PFC chargers are also a piece of work; years ago he had been working on an EV charger set up to handle this(he mentioned a PFC100 on the EV list, capable of handling a 240V 200A feed).


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

The Toecutter said:


> Fast charge infrastructure is not yet built around the U.S., even if the technology was viable and demonstrated during the 1990s(see Aerovironment). Were it not for the actions of the Western States Petroleum Association, we'd probably at least have had this infrastructure all over California and all along Route 66. Southern California Edison was in fact prepared to build it!
> 
> Without such infrastructure being a common sight in the U.S., about 500 miles is necessary for a road trip.
> 
> ...



Any fast charging station would need to have both at least a industrial HV connection and a battery bank, but all of the tech is readily available to do just that. On the plus side I'd be willing to bet a setup like this could get some very nice power rates if they draw most of their power at night and allow utilities to tap a little off their banks in times of extreme high demand. The infrastructure is already there all you need is the battery bank and the power connection to the grid. Although a large molten salt battery would probably be cheapest. The Electrics are being rolled out this year. As adoption rate climbs the fast charging stations will follow.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> Without such infrastructure being a common sight in the U.S., about 500 miles is necessary for a road trip.


I can pretty much guarantee we'll see some fast charging stations before we see 500 mile range EV's. Even a half hour charge after 200 miles makes road trips viable, and takes much lower power levels. Drive 200 miles, stop for lunch and recharge, then go another 200 miles. That's a decent road trip, more than most people do most of the time.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I can pretty much guarantee we'll see some fast charging stations before we see 500 mile range EV's. Even a half hour charge after 200 miles makes road trips viable, and takes much lower power levels. Drive 200 miles, stop for lunch and recharge, then go another 200 miles. That's a decent road trip, more than most people do most of the time.


Should the Solectria Sunrise entry(built by Lee Hart and others) win Jack Rickard's contest, we will probably see the first one very soon after. All that is missing is the will on part of the majors to build such a thing.

You are correct about 200 miles being all that one needs. But that is if/when the charging infrastructure is finally set up. As it stands today, you could not take a road trip with a 200 mile range EV because of the lack of fast charge stations, but you could with a 500 mile range one!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Toecutter said:


> Should the Solectria Sunrise entry(built by Lee Hart and others) win Jack Rickard's contest, we will probably see the first one very soon after. All that is missing is the will on part of the majors to build such a thing.


That's why we won't see one. Not to mention if we did it would be insanely expensive at this point in time.


> You are correct about 200 miles being all that one needs. But that is if/when the charging infrastructure is finally set up. As it stands today, you could not take a road trip with a 200 mile range EV because of the lack of fast charge stations, but you could with a 500 mile range one!


Well since the 500 mile EV is no more in existence than the fast charge network they are equally impossible. Saying "if/when the charging infrastructure is finally setup" is no different than saying "if/when the 500 mile EV is built". I think we'll see charging stations before we see the 500 mile EV, since the charging stations are actually needed where the 500 mile EV is not. Actually fast charging stations aren't needed either but are more useful and cost effective than a fleet of 500 mile EV's. That's a whole lot of battery to carry around that will never be needed. People are obsessed with range requirements that have little to no actual use. An ICE genset trailer for the occasional long trip makes much more sense. Make it propane so the fuel doesn't go bad while it sits unused 99.99% of the time.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Why don't you guys unhyjack this thread?
Gerhard


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Sorry. Maybe a moderator could swing by and make this a separate thread.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't you realize we are talking about the best way to drive White Zombie on a road trip? Completely on topic.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The *Lithiumaniacs EV Drag Racing Team* are building a street legal 300ZX that will smoke "White Zombies" record. It also has dual motors and lithium batteries. No details yet. We will run on the East Coast Tracks in 2011. 

GLTA!

*www.ECEDRA.com*


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

That's on topic, maniacs...when details?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Don't you realize we are talking about the best way to drive White Zombie on a road trip? Completely on topic.


If it's "White Zombie", and not a streamliner, a 500 mile range pack is not a viable proposition for it at this time. It would need to be about 120 kWh to do that!

With fast charging infrastructure, even its 100 mile range would be plenty. Of course, with its choice of battery pack, per mile operating cost would be well north of even your most high maintenance and guzzling of sports cars.

A better candidate for "daily driver" would be "Blue Meanie", with its 168V pack of Enersys lead acid replaced with an equivalent weight of the kind of LiFePO4 being offered in Jack's contest; it would still do 0-60 mph < 6 seconds, but its range would be a reasonable 200 miles. As for fast charging, I am not too sure that pack would be up to it, but the range would be plenty, and per mile operating cost so low it would embarrass a first generation Honda Insight hybrid.



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The *Lithiumaniacs EV Drag Racing Team* are building a street legal 300ZX that will smoke "White Zombies" record. It also has dual motors and lithium batteries. No details yet. We will run on the East Coast Tracks in 2011.
> 
> GLTA!
> 
> *www.ECEDRA.com*


I doubt you will get it right the first time. A LOT of tweaking went into making WZ what it is, and odds are likely the same will apply to that vehicle.

Don't be surprised if it has enough power to pull 9s, but initially runs 11s or 12s. That is, unless you have a place to do some testing before the big race...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

GerhardRP said:


> That's on topic, maniacs...when details?


Follow schedule on www.ECEDRA.com for race dates. We are building cars to compete in a few different classes. My "special" EV Dragster is being built just to take the Trophy to the East Coast.

GLTA!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The Toecutter said:


> If it's "White Zombie", and not a streamliner, a 500 mile range pack is not a viable proposition for it at this time. It would need to be about 120 kWh to do that!
> 
> With fast charging infrastructure, even its 100 mile range would be plenty. Of course, with its choice of battery pack, per mile operating cost would be well north of even your most high maintenance and guzzling of sports cars.
> 
> ...


Years of experience in Drag Racing and thousands of dollars in the most advanced parts money can buy. Some of our "new" items are not on the market yet. Its costing a small fortune, but, the record will be ours.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like the confidence. Hopefully it's not overconfidence


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I like the confidence. Hopefully it's not overconfidence


We are serious, spent large amounts to get the East Coast Team Developed. We will have many private tests before any official track record is recorded. Our 300ZX has more torque than the Zombie, we will be testing different rear differentials to see what ratio works best for our combo. Its all for fun, we just want the title belt. The EGO trip the West Coast Racers are on has driven many "Sponsors" to us. Most of our Sponsors are located East of the Miss River.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad to hear it. The East Coast has basically been something of an EV wasteland compared to the other side of the country.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Glad to hear it. The East Coast has basically been something of an EV wasteland compared to the other side of the country.


I agree, that is why ECEDRA was started. The East Coast has some of the best tracks in the country. Please pass the word and support ECEDRA.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Glad to hear it. The East Coast has basically been something of an EV wasteland compared to the other side of the country.


Hey JRP,

There has been electric racing east of the Mississippi. Three of the four TTXGP races this season were out here. For the 9 past years, the Power of DC has been in Maryland. There were a number of Battery Beach Burnouts in Florida. Even an Edrag race in Salem, OH a couple years ago. One of the fastest and quickest 1/4 (and 1/8)th mile guys operates out of Ohio. 

I see the big problem out east here as the lack of attendance. 

Also, I think it a shame that this east coast group was formed. NEDRA exists and should have been the means to sanction events nationwide, even worldwide. Having a competing organization with different rules and different recordbook is not going to help the EVrace cause. It will hurt it. Just as such foolishness has hurt other types of motorsports, or even non-motor sports.

Again, I think it a shame that people can't just work together. 

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I probably should have specified Northeast coast, but I wasn't talking about just racing. The whole EV scene has been better represented on the west coast compared to the east. I know where most of my parts come from 
As for NEDRA vs ECEDRA, a nice east/west rivalry might be a good thing. I do imagine them merging in the future.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> Hey JRP,
> 
> There has been electric racing east of the Mississippi. Three of the four TTXGP races this season were out here. For the 9 past years, the Power of DC has been in Maryland. There were a number of Battery Beach Burnouts in Florida. Even an Edrag race in Salem, OH a couple years ago. One of the fastest and quickest 1/4 (and 1/8)th mile guys operates out of Ohio.
> 
> ...


Well, Nedra sanctioned a few races on the East Coast, but, never seemed dedicated to expanding in the East. In fact this year they cancelled some race events. The two associations will help the sport, you can compare it to American League/National League of baseball.

Since ECEDRA has been formed the response has been enormous. You can compare the East Coast interest to a starving Lion. The East needed to be fed.

I have a question, why has NEDRA refused to advertise in the East? I keep hearing this excuse they cancelled East Coast Events because the lack of cars? That is a ridiculous excuse. You want more racers, HOLD EVENTS.

Now worry now, ECEDRA will handle the advertising, promotions and events for the East Coast EV Drag Racers.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I keep hearing this excuse they cancelled East Coast Events because the lack of cars? That is a ridiculous excuse.


You have an event and one or two cars commit. What is ridiculous about cancelling? How far from the east coast is Hagerstown? Mason Dixon Raceway? Where has the turnout been? I think if you had the racers, NEDRA would be there


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

major said:


> Again, I think it a shame that people can't just work together.
> major


So will the classes and rules be the same for both organizations or will we have a DH/pitcher bats sort of problem. It would be nice to make it possible to move from one group to the other without changing anything.
Gerhard


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> You have an event and one or two cars commit. What is ridiculous about cancelling? How far from the east coast is Hagerstown? Mason Dixon Raceway? Where has the turnout been? I think if you had the racers, NEDRA would be there


Your missing the point. If you promote and sponsor (spend money) you will attract new EV racers. Promotion is everything, EV racing is a sport, but, every sport needs advertising. ECEDRA has committed large amounts for promotions, the goal is to create new EV Drag Racers. 

Why all the fighting, lets race and the fastest car wins.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Your missing the point. If you promote and sponsor (spend money) you will attract new EV racers. Promotion is everything...


Small business is traditionally underfunded, which means they can't really afford to follow the "if you build it, they will come" philosophy. I have been guilty of it in my own business. The philosophy switches to "I'm not building it if they don't promise to come".

If you can afford to set the conditions for the excitement, and hang in there until enough people catch on, you should do well.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...Why all the fighting, lets race and the fastest car wins.


Unfortunately, it seems to be second nature to EV drag racing.  It's frustrating as #3!! to me, because there are just enough players to accomplish great things if they could work together. The difference between being competitors and enemies seems to be lost amongst EV drag racers.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

GerhardRP said:


> So will the classes and rules be the same for both organizations or will we have a DH/pitcher bats sort of problem. It would be nice to make it possible to move from one group to the other without changing anything.
> Gerhard


ECEDRA was willing to accept/adopt their classes for our racing events (to make things simpler), but, NEDRA refused permission for ECEDRA to use the same set of classes. So, ECEDRA designed their own. 

Research the NHRA, there is multi Associations/Organizations Racing at NHRA Events. ECEDRA has the written permission from NHRA to publish the rules and regulations for EV Drag Racing on: www.ECEDRA.com .


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Small business is traditionally underfunded, which means they can't really afford to follow the "if you build it, they will come" philosophy. I have been guilty of it in my own business. The philosophy switches to "I'm not building it if they don't promise to come".
> 
> If you can afford to set the conditions for the excitement, and hang in there until enough people catch on, you should do well.
> 
> ...


Our goal is to expand EV Drag Racing in the East Coast of USA. We regret any disagreements with NEDRA. Hopefully in the near future both Associations will find common ground. For now, ECEDRA must move foward at full speed for the 2011 season.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

"If you can afford to set the conditions for the excitement, and hang in there until enough people catch on, you should do well."

This is the most powerful statement I have read on this forum. Being in business for many years, I can tell you this is 100% true. No business/sport will grow without advertising. EV Drag Racing has been under promoted for years. ECEDRA plans on changing that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our goal is to expand EV Drag Racing in the East Coast of USA. We regret any disagreements with NEDRA. Hopefully in the near future both Associations will find common ground. For now, ECEDRA must move foward at full speed for the 2011 season.


I didn't mean ECEDRA vs NEDRA, I fully understand why you're going the route you are. I was on the NEDRA Yahoo Group when the subject came up (I've left that Yahoo Group). You have to market your venture, and it's in the spirit of competition to issue challenges, and set big goals.

I meant EV drag racers as a whole can't get along. The West Coast people can't get along with each other, so you know they're not going to like you! 

Good luck, I really hope ECEDRA goes BIG!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I didn't mean ECEDRA vs NEDRA, I fully understand why you're going the route you are. I was on the NEDRA Yahoo Group when the subject came up (I've left that Yahoo Group). You have to market your venture, and it's in the spirit of competition to issue challenges, and set big goals.
> 
> I meant EV drag racers as a whole can't get along. The West Coast people can't get along with each other, so you know they're not going to like you!
> 
> Good luck, I really hope ECEDRA goes BIG!


Thank you for your support!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The West Coast people can't get along with each other,


I wonder what the real geographical distribution of NEDRA members actually is


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> I wonder what the real geographical distribution of NEDRA members actually is


No idea? I was referring specifically to a few of the leaders of the group, from the western side of the country, that can't have a civil conversation to save their own souls. Just mention the wrong name and a decent discussion turns into a elementary school, name-calling, playground brawl.

I will say that our fellow Ohio guy, Shawn Lawless, seemed to conduct himself with dignity and professionalism in the times I have read (internet) or seen (TV) him speak. I know nothing of his past, but he seems to keep his feet out of the mud, and remain concentrated on racing. The results speak for themselves.

Something I think you agree with Major, is I hope this time slip racing eventually comes to an end and heads-up drag racing becomes the norm. Drag racing records are supposed to the result of people going all out to compete with one another, not a book or digital file. I'm admittedly not much help in this regard because I have started building yet another variety of EV racer that doesn't exactly correspond to any of the existing ones currently racing. I never set out to compete for EV records though. I have always had my sights set on marketing my business, and competing against ICE vehicles that are actually similar to what I am building - in weight, form, and cost. I really never even planned on attending EV specific events, I have always had my sights set on the traditional hot rod events I frequent. I also don't really refer to my project as an EV, I just call it a hot rod.

If you are dedicated to EVs - start builidng stuff to compete directly with what's out there. Maybe what ECEDRA needs is some prize money and/or a points championship in the most popular classes to encourage more direct competition between the racers. If they were racing for a controller or something they may be more inclined to show up and go all-out.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The constant infighting that's been occurring on NEDRA's Yahoo group is a definite turn-off. Evnetics has enough of an asshole in me; we don't need to be sponsoring one, too. So I sincerely hope that ECEDRA takes the moral high road and ignores the taunts and other juvenile behaviors from those bad actors in NEDRA.

The only "enemy" of a racer is _time_. Well, time and money, because a decrease in the amount of the second often leads to an increase in the amount of the first (on the slips, that is)...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> You have an event and one or two cars commit. What is ridiculous about cancelling? How far from the east coast is Hagerstown? Mason Dixon Raceway? Where has the turnout been? I think if you had the racers, NEDRA would be there


Stop blaming the "racers". Try promoting and you will grow.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I didn't mean ECEDRA vs NEDRA, I fully understand why you're going the route you are. I was on the NEDRA Yahoo Group when the subject came up (I've left that Yahoo Group). You have to market your venture, and it's in the spirit of competition to issue challenges, and set big goals.
> 
> I meant EV drag racers as a whole can't get along. The West Coast people can't get along with each other, so you know they're not going to like you!
> 
> Good luck, I really hope ECEDRA goes BIG!


Thank You!

Looking forward to seeing you at our events!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> The constant infighting that's been occurring on NEDRA's Yahoo group is a definite turn-off. Evnetics has enough of an asshole in me; we don't need to be sponsoring one, too. So I sincerely hope that ECEDRA takes the moral high road and ignores the taunts and other juvenile behaviors from those bad actors in NEDRA.
> 
> The only "enemy" of a racer is _time_. Well, time and money, because a decrease in the amount of the second often leads to an increase in the amount of the first (on the slips, that is)...


Jeff,

We have washed our hands of NEDRA and the "fighting". We are all about having fun and racing. I love to race have been racing for over 20 years. My VP has spoken highly of EVNetics, that is why I purchased your controller for our 3000GT. We must speak soon, the 300ZX (twin motors) will need a special controller, I am sure you know what I need. Team Lithiumaniacs is being built on my dime, looking for sponsorship to help reduce costs. Starting ECEDRA and Team Lithiumaniacs is costing be a small fortune, but, the end results will be amazing! I am a master at promoting, soon ECEDRA will be seen in magazines, TV, etc.....we have even started an email response system. EV Drag Racing on the East Coast is about to explode.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Stop blaming the "racers". Try promoting and you will grow.


You could promote what we have. But you want to be in charge. 

And I am a racer. But I find it difficult to find venues to run. And I do not see you helping the situation.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> But I find it difficult to find venues to run. And I do not see you helping the situation.


Well if he provides more venues to run in, then he will. If he spends more time promoting how awesome he is, well then....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> You could promote what we have. But you want to be in charge.
> 
> And I am a racer. But I find it difficult to find venues to run. And I do not see you helping the situation.


Major,

Listen, we are here to help. Our association is creating more venues to race, did you read our 2011 schedule? I am spending hours and hours, setting up the 2011 season for all of us, just enjoy it. If you are dedicated to NEDRA and do not live on the East Coast then why worry about us? If you do live on the East Coast you are welcome at all our events.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Major,
> 
> Listen, we are here to help. Our association is creating more venues to race, did you read our 2011 schedule? I am spending hours and hours, setting up the 2011 season for all of us, just enjoy it. If you are dedicated to NEDRA and do not live on the East Coast then why worry about us? If you do live on the East Coast you are welcome at all our events.


I am not a member of NEDRA. I do not live on either coast. I am an EV racer. I promote EVs. I just don't buy into you. Sorry.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> You could promote what we have. But you want to be in charge.
> 
> And I am a racer. But I find it difficult to find venues to run. And I do not see you helping the situation.


Your statement sounds like you are a member of NEDRA. We (ECEDRA Officials) are not trying to "be in charge" or replace NEDRA. We feel because we are located on the East Coast that we need to be a seperate entity then NEDRA. Our association is spending the money and putting in the effort to organize venues here, not NEDRA. We are still willing to promote NEDRA along side ECEDRA, if NEDRA is willing to do the same. For example, I called Chip from "Power of DC" to get his 2011 date, we would never schedule any venue on that date, that my friend is called cooperation, we have tried.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

major said:


> I am not a member of NEDRA. I do not live on either coast. I am an EV racer. I promote EVs. I just don't buy into you. Sorry.


Okay, conversation over. Good Luck and I wish you the best!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Well if he provides more venues to run in, then he will. If he spends more time promoting how awesome he is, well then....


Thank you! Its all about promoting EV's, we are all on the same team.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This whole thread is beginning to sound like it's a member of NEDRA. EV racing technology is developing awesomely, EV drag racing's personality has a nasty cancer. It doesn't even have to be the same childish people having the same childish arguments. Anytime the subject is even raised there's a good chance the whole conversation is going to down the tubes. Just sad...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> This whole thread is beginning to sound like it's a member of NEDRA. EV racing technology is developing awesomely, EV drag racing's personality has a nasty cancer. It doesn't even have to be the same childish people having the same childish arguments. Anytime the subject is even raised there's a good chance the whole conversation is going to down the tubes. Just sad...


I agree Todd, something fishy about "Major" keep attacking ECEDRA. We have never attacked him, we have no idea who he is? These childish bites at another association is very junevile.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We do know who Major is. He's a long standing contributor to this forum and the EV community in general and one of the more even handed ones at that. Keep that in mind.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Frankly for someone fairly new to the scene you are coming on a bit strong and probably turning some people off. I like your enthusiasm but I'd urge you to back it down a notch and not become confrontational, it won't help your cause.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I agree Todd, something fishy about "Major" keep attacking ECEDRA. We have never attacked him, we have no idea who he is? These childish bites at another association is very junevile.


Hey, it is nothing personal. I just don't happen to think that diversification and splitting organized EV racing of any type is good for the sport or for EVs in general. I feel that EV racing should be represented better than sectional or regional sanctioning bodies. Excuse me for an opinion. And I don't like the way that your east coast organization has gone about it. I do not represent NEDRA or am I even associated with them. They may or may not have problems. But I do not think they are run by a single individual and could not change. Why would they not want more races and more racers and more promotion?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I agree Todd, something fishy about "Major" keep attacking ECEDRA. We have never attacked him, we have no idea who he is? These childish bites at another association is very junevile.


I wasn't directing my comment at Major, or you, or any one person in particular. I am talking about the interaction between EV'ers when the subject of drag racing comes up. The cancer that permeates NEDRA seems to be always lingering just under the surface of any EV drag racing discussion.

I personally think it's great that another organization challenges NEDRA. Competiton and choice are good for the development of any product or service. If you do what you're promising with ECEDRA, it will force NEDRA to improve to remain competitive as a sanctioing body. Right now they can do pretty much whatever they want, because they're the only game in town. If, after both have grown to the point that customer demand rules the industry, there is a merger or dissolution both will have served their purpose in growing the sport. The sport of EV drag racing is supposed to be what's important here, not the people or the organizations.

I keep harping on it just to see if anyone can hear the wake up call. This whole thing will live or die by the people who lead it. It's pretty much a proven fact that logic doesn't always (rarely ever?) guide our decisions as a species, so the personalities of a few leaders can make a huge difference.

I'm a nobody in the EV world. I've never tried to be anybody, and it's not my goal to be somebody important in it. As such, my words are just the words of a person, carrying no special weight or authority. What they do carry is a certain truth. Many of the "leaders" of this whole movement make me want to go drink a glass of crude oil, and hug my ICE. I know the truth, I understand the merits, but its "face" is hideous. Like a slightly vain man looking an ugly, but "good" woman, and asking himself if he really wants to wake up to that face everyday; if he really wants to be seen walking with her on his arm! Just being honest.

If I already have a personal stake in this thing (my project) and feel like that, what would the average person, who is on the fence, think upon experiencing this behavior?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Caveat: I am not a member of NEDRA, but I plan to become a member this coming spring.

Anyway, I asked what it would take to post a record at my local drag strip. It turns out I have a NEDRA official within 2 hours drive that graciously agreed to officiate my runs.

Anyway, that didn't take major bucks, or promotion, or anything beyond asking. It'll just be a test and tune night, no special scheduling. While we are at it, I'll ask if any of the other local electrics want to run.

Anyway, just a thought, ask what it would take to do "your own" event if you want more venues -- it might be easier than you think.


major said:


> ... I find it difficult to find venues to run. ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I wasn't directing my comment at Major, or you, or any one person in particular.


Hi Todd,

I have been involved with organized electric racing for 17 years. I have been a motorsport fan longer than I care to mention  I have seen what splits in that industry or sport or business or whatever can do to the "sport". And it never has been good, IMO.

EV racing is in its infancy. We need to come together, not split apart. And I am not talking just about drag racing. I will try to put together my thoughts on the subject and post up a new thread.

I know that you don't like the crap which occurs on the NEDRA discussion forum. Does anybody? From what I can see, that is a few individuals who are not governing members of NEDRA. Why blame NEDRA for a yahoo group which allows freedom of speech? You don't have to support that forum to support NEDRA. And if you don't like something about NEDRA, why not work to change it? 

Regards,

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> ...I know that you don't like the crap which occurs on the NEDRA discussion forum. Does anybody? From what I can see, that is a few individuals who are not governing members of NEDRA...


Even if they are not governing members, the worst offenders are some of the most prominent, most accomplished, "card-carrying" NEDRA members. I have nothing to lose, and nothing to gain, so I'll name names - the bitter, childish, rivalry between Wayland, Dube, and Berube is sickening. That is the heart of matter. Arguably, the three most pivotal figures in EV drag racing are also at the core of the problem. They each have their own respective supporting cast members, but the nastiness starts at the top and filters down. I stuck around that Yahoo Group just long enough to get a feel for the organization. I personally saw who throws logs on the fire, and who fans the flames. My convictions are not based on hearsay, but rather firsthand (internet) experience.

The problem is this has become the "spirit" of the industry. It's how problems are addressed, and how business is conducted now. When the thread was posted about ECEDRA, whether the approach to organized East Coast EV drag racing was right or wrong, and whether the motives of the organizer were good or bad, the method in which almost all the participatiing NEDRA members dealt with it was simply - attack! I felt like I was watching a movie about gang life. _(ECEDRA dude - don't take that as any type of vindication - you were wrong in how you went about it and you didn't help matters any in how you responded - I was there)._





major said:


> ...And if you don't like something about NEDRA, why not work to change it?...


No thanks.

I have made it public knowledge here more than a few times that I am not in this because I am an avid greenie. I decided to put an electric motor in my street rod because it makes my aesthetic design work better. The interest in EV racing started because the only way I would even consider the electric powertrain is if it didn't cost me anything significant in performance. I am a hot rodder, pure and simple. I still love ICE, but in this particular case electric works better for my goals.

I am going the other direction, pulling away from organized EV racing, and placing my concentration back on my hot rod and hot rodding in general. I plan to join NHRA, but have no interest in NEDRA, ECEDRA, or dedicated EV events. I will be found hanging around my ICE buddies at my normal hot rod events. If I can present and promote EVs in a positive light I will gladly do so, but that will be the extent of my involvement. Sorry, that's just where I am. I came, I saw, I considered - it's not for me.

Just like I un-joined myself from that Group, I am getting ready to un-involve myself from these type discussions here as well. I will be here, building my projects, keeping up with the latest developments, and sharing anything I have that can help - but I won't be participating in any more "organization" oriented conversation. That's going to be challenging because humans are "pack" minded animals.

If I hadn't _met_ and started discussing performance and racing with Tesseract, I would have went back to ICE by now. I've actually searched for engines and transmissions quite a few times recently. The two things that have kept that electric motor in play, so far, are I haven't found an engine that suits my plans as well, and I enjoy working with EVnetics.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not a racer of any kind but it seems to me that fighting and arguing simply go along with racing, be it NHRA, NASCAR, IRL, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There's a distinct difference between competitiveness and unsportsmanlike conduct. My biggest rivals were some of my best friends. If you heard us bench racing you could have drawn the conclusion that we were really enemies. If you saw us helping each other build and fix our vehicles, and enjoying life together, you'd have known it was all in fun.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

When I said fighting I was including actual fist fights, which I would consider unsportsmanlike conduct.
http://www.fastmachines.com/nhra/capps-fined-10000-a-bit-excessive/
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27425132/

If the NEDRA guys have avoided throwing fists so far they are still ahead of the big boys.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> When I said fighting I was including actual fist fights, which I would consider unsportsmanlike conduct.
> http://www.fastmachines.com/nhra/capps-fined-10000-a-bit-excessive/
> http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27425132/
> 
> If the NEDRA guys have avoided throwing fists so far they are still ahead of the big boys.


The NHRA incident is the exception not the rule. What you will typically find in NHRA is the opporsite, including teams even willing to go in the pits with competitors and help them.

As for NASCAR, you may be closer to the mark. I don't watch NASCAR, have no interest in it, never have - maybe that's why. My point (for me) stands. I have no interest in NEDRA, no interest in being associated with them in any way, and no interest in helping them change.

I'm not saying they can't change, not saying they won't. I'm not saying they aren't a good organization, not saying they won't be a great one. I am just saying I don't think I will ever be a part of it.

I'm also saying, as of this post, I am no longer involved in these discusions. No hard feelings, no malice, no problems - just said all I care to say about it. Subscription removed...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow! many opinions and a long list of history of drama in the racing arena. For myself, I have been a member of the NHRA for a very long time and have raced ICE for over 20 years. I remember the "Street Machine Nationals" in the 80's at Englishtown, NJ.

Now being 100% committed to EV racing, we must build new teams and mover forward. I see an enormous future for EV racing, the sport will grow with events and media. In regards to "NEDRA" or "ECEDRA" there should not be a problem, the NHRA has many associations involved with Drag Racing. NEDRA is not even listed on NHRA's website. I would love to see the NHRA list all EV Racing Associations within their website. Even the sport of "drag racing" has many organizations and associations, NHRA, IHRA, etc..creating friendly competition between groups is a good thing for the sport.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The Lithiumaniacs Team has decided to use NetGain for our racing motors, they have many years of building reliable products.

Our 300XZ will use 11" TransWarP connected to a 11" Warp motor. No transmission, direct drive to a Strange Rear End. This car is strictly being built to race the 1/4 mile.

Our 3000GT will use one 11" HV motor from NetGain. The 3000GT will retain the standard transmission, but use an aluminum flywheel and high-performance clutch. The 3000GT will also be raced in longer road races, so we need to maintain the higher top speeds for longer durations.

Both cars will have carbon fiber hoods and fenders.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Two thumbs up for building electric race cars.

It's a great idea to build a car you like -- it's crazy to put tons of effort and money into something you don't love.

How did you decide on these 2 cars? If it's a case you love them, all is good! I just ask because these are not the first cars that come to my mind if your goal is to build a record setting drag racer or track car. The 300ZX is double the unconverted weight of White Zombie, and the 3000GT weighs as much (or as much as 400 lbs more) than a V8 Camaro. There are bajillions of performance parts for Porsches, Corvettes, Muscle Cars, and Hondas -- why not a lighter car with a better performance parts market?


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The Lithiumaniacs Team has decided to use NetGain for our racing motors, they have many years of building reliable products.
> 
> Our 300XZ will use 11" TransWarP connected to a 11" Warp motor. No transmission, direct drive to a Strange Rear End. This car is strictly being built to race the 1/4 mile.
> 
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Two thumbs up for building electric race cars.
> 
> It's a great idea to build a car you like -- it's crazy to put tons of effort and money into something you don't love.
> 
> How did you decide on these 2 cars? If it's a case you love them, all is good! I just ask because these are not the first cars that come to my mind if your goal is to build a record setting drag racer or track car. The 300ZX is double the unconverted weight of White Zombie, and the 3000GT weighs as much (or as much as 400 lbs more) than a V8 Camaro. There are bajillions of performance parts for Porsches, Corvettes, Muscle Cars, and Hondas -- why not a lighter car with a better performance parts market?


Both cars are sleek and aerodynamic. The 3000GT will not compete with the Zombie in th 1/4 mile, but on the highway he would be in the mirror.

Now on the other hand, the 300ZX with the two 11" motors and "new" Soliton controller has a good chance at the records. Both 11" motors will produce more torque and HP than Zombie's car. Its kind of a "toss-up" more weight (not much more) but more torque. I feel with the correct gear ratio in the rear we will take the trophy. Its all in fun, if we get it cool! If not we keep building. 

I plan on building a full tube frame chassis EV dragster after these two, watch for that rocket!


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I bet that 3000 GT is going to have one hell of a large and expensive battery pack...

I'd have gone with something that had a much smaller frontal area for a road race candidate. Your biggest issue with a road racer is going to be the continuous horsepower capability of your motor(s). I'd rather be able to maintain 150 mph with 120 horsepower than with 220 horsepower in such an event.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Both cars are sleek and aerodynamic. The 3000GT will not compete with the Zombie in th 1/4 mile, but on the highway he would be in the mirror.
> 
> Now on the other hand, the 300ZX with the two 11" motors and "new" Soliton controller has a good chance at the records. Both 11" motors will produce more torque and HP than Zombie's car. Its kind of a "toss-up" more weight (not much more) but more torque. I feel with the correct gear ratio in the rear we will take the trophy. Its all in fun, if we get it cool! If not we keep building.
> 
> I plan on building a full tube frame chassis EV dragster after these two, watch for that rocket!


If you were to tube frame or semi-tube frame the 300zx and use fiberglass or carbon fiber body panels you would probably be able to compete with the zombie in weight, add to that the dual 11" motors and you would for sure have a rocket (would need some seriously wide slicks though)...as it was mentioned, zombie wants to keep the car stock to compete in a certain class, that doesn't mean you have too...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Why not? CroDriver had two 11's siamesed. By rail, I'm assuming you mean dragster?


Just a suggenstion in case someone is going to do something similar -> Don't parallel the motors if you'll be pushing them to the limit. Just wire them in series.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Just a suggenstion in case someone is going to do something similar -> Don't parallel the motors if you'll be pushing them to the limit. Just wire them in series.


Can I ask why?

Correct me if I am wrong, but Series means 1/2 pack voltage & full pack amperage right?

So using a hypothetical setup: 400V & 2000A

Its better to run each of the motors @ 200V & 2000A, rather than 400V & 1000A???

I know the torque would be greater however I thought higher voltage was better for horsepower...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Can I ask why?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but Series means 1/2 pack voltage & full pack amperage right?
> 
> ...


Yes, theoretically. But the problem is that there is no way to make both motors perfectly same, the wires are not the same and the connections are not the same. There will always be a different resistance from the controller to the motor. That will kill one motor if you're close to the limit of both motors. That happened to me. I fried one motor while the other one was like new.

I shipped the motor back to the manufacturer to wind them to 150V each - so I can have full RPMs even when they are wired in series.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Both 11" motors will produce more torque and HP than Zombie's car.


This is a common misconception. The motors only convert power from watts to shaft horsepower. The power available will be determined by the watts (volts times amps) you feed the motor. If the chosen motor(s) are seriously undersized the efficiency will tank at high power levels and they will burn up. If the motors are not getting too hot on the drag strip there is not going to be a big difference.

Making more torque at a given power level simply means you do so at a lower rpm. HP = torque * rpm / 5252. Gearing can accomplish this too.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Yes, theoretically. But the problem is that there is no way to make both motors perfectly same, the wires are not the same and the connections are not the same. There will always be a different resistance from the controller to the motor. That will kill one motor if you're close to the limit of both motors. That happened to me. I fried one motor while the other one was like new.
> 
> I shipped the motor back to the manufacturer to wind them to 150V each - so I can have full RPMs even when they are wired in series.


please tell us more about this rewinding and the performance when you get them back. Thanks!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVfun said:


> This is a common misconception. The motors only convert power from watts to shaft horsepower. The power available will be determined by the watts (volts times amps) you feed the motor. If the chosen motor(s) are seriously undersized the efficiency will tank at high power levels and they will burn up. If the motors are not getting too hot on the drag strip there is not going to be a big difference.
> 
> Making more torque at a given power level simply means you do so at a lower rpm. HP = torque * rpm / 5252. Gearing can accomplish this too.


I think all he is saying is that two 11" motors is a more powerful setup than two 9" motors...Seeing what Crodriver has documented with the built 11" doing 500whp, 1000whp with two 11" motors is more powerful than the current setup on the White Zombie. That is true...however...Will he be able to put that power to the ground? Will the battery pack be able to give that much energy reliably? The entire setup has to work together to be successful.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I think all he is saying is that two 11" motors is a more powerful setup than two 9" motors...Seeing what Crodriver has documented with the built 11" doing 500whp, 1000whp with two 11" motors is more powerful than the current setup on the White Zombie. That is true...however...Will he be able to put that power to the ground? Will the battery pack be able to give that much energy reliably? The entire setup has to work together to be successful.


Yap... The batteries will be an issue too. My guess is that you will need at least 600 kg of batteries of 1000 whp.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

600kg? Thats 83kw/h of lipo! The cells we curently use that would give 1600kw continuous, I'm sure you could do better. THere are 35-40C lipo's out there at affordable prices these days, you could make 1000kw+ with a 30KW/h pack of these, weighing just 215kg.
Thought you were making a drag car here

Steve



CroDriver said:


> Yap... The batteries will be an issue too. My guess is that you will need at least 600 kg of batteries of 1000 whp.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> 600kg? Thats 83kw/h of lipo! The cells we curently use that would give 1600kw continuous, I'm sure you could do better. THere are 35-40C lipo's out there at affordable prices these days, you could make 1000kw+ with a 30KW/h pack of these, weighing just 215kg.
> Thought you were making a drag car here
> 
> Steve


Please provide links to these cells!

I am wondering:
What is the safe charge Amps for these cells?
What is the stability? Fire Danger?
What is the cycle life? Does it compare to Lithium phosphate?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Bill Dube has extensively documented his A123 cells for max currents. You can get cells like he has from DeWalt tool battery packs. 
http://www.killacycle.com

John Wayland has also done great write-ups on his lithiums.
http://www.PlasmaBoyRacing.com


Bowser330 said:


> Please provide links to these cells!
> 
> I am wondering:
> What is the safe charge Amps for these cells?
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Bill Dube has extensively documented his A123 cells for max currents. You can get cells like he has from DeWalt tool battery packs.
> http://www.killacycle.com
> 
> John Wayland has also done great write-ups on his lithiums.
> http://www.PlasmaBoyRacing.com


I am well aware of both A123s and Kokam (White Zombie) cells...

I believe Jozzer is advocating Lithium-Polymer cells that are currently popular with the RC crowd, sold by RC World...

Example:
http://www.rclipos.com/PolyRC_XF.htm
Model #VoltsmAhMax
Cont.Max
BurstDimensionsWeightPrice
*PQ-4400XF-6S*22.2V4400198.0A396.0A143.0 x 49.5 x 63.5805g*Stock $207.95*

22.2V
4.4AH
198A continuous
805g
208$

333V = 15 cells in series
44A = 10 cells in parallel
150 total cells = 14.6kwh, 1980A continuous, 265lbs, 31K$


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> I think all he is saying is that two 11" motors is a more powerful setup than two 9" motors...Seeing what Crodriver has documented with the built 11" doing 500whp, 1000whp with two 11" motors is more powerful than the current setup on the White Zombie. That is true...however...Will he be able to put that power to the ground? Will the battery pack be able to give that much energy reliably? The entire setup has to work together to be successful.


Again, no. Power is determined by the volts and amps that get out of the controller(s). The motors are only a conversion device from watts to shaft HP. Unless the motors get too hot (for example, John was having problems keeping his 8's together) there isn't much to gain from going with larger motors. At some point the small efficiency gains will even be outweighed by the vehicle weight increase from a larger motor. 

746 watts is 1 HP. In reality it will be less than 1 HP because no motor is 100% efficient. The chosen motors will effect efficiency, that will be the only difference in output horsepower for a given input watts.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Again, no. Power is determined by the volts and amps that get out of the controller(s). The motors are only a conversion device from watts to shaft HP. Unless the motors get too hot (for example, John was having problems keeping his 8's together) there isn't much to gain from going with larger motors. At some point the small efficiency gains will even be outweighed by the vehicle weight increase from a larger motor.
> 
> 746 watts is 1 HP. In reality it will be less than 1 HP because no motor is 100% efficient. The chosen motors will effect efficiency, that will be the only difference in output horsepower for a given input watts.


Yes they are the conversion device, but those devices have to be able to withstand the power you are pushing into them don't they? 

You said, "unless the motors get hot", and well, just as you pointed out with the siamese 8's, they do, they get very hot when they cannot sustain the kw demands of the battery pack..that's when the internals melt and they fall apart.

Tesseract proved this with his experiments with a standard warp9. 100kw was deemed the maximum power a warp9 can take till it starts melting. A warp11HV was able to do 372kw, repeatedly down the dragstrip by Crodriver. Can the Warp9 be built to put out more than 100kw, sure, after Jim H. works his magic on them, are they each tolerating 372kw? We dont know. What is the maximum amount of power Warp11HVs can take? We dont know. The assumption is that the larger motor will be able to tolerate more power from the pack before failure/melting, therefore, the larger motor is capable of being more powerful.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Example:
> http://www.rclipos.com/PolyRC_XF.htm
> Model #VoltsmAhMax
> Cont.Max
> ...


Or maybe ...

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616

22.2V
5Ah
450A (90C) burst
842g
$90 (popup discount after a bit of watching the product, prolly cheaper for repeat customers still)

That's pretty much 10kW for $90 peak burst. As in 1MW for $9000. With 84,2kg or about 200lbs. There is some insane RC lipo around already ... and on-sale prices for some of those 90c batteries can be even lower!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Yes they are the conversion device, but those devices have to be able to withstand the power you are pushing into them don't they?
> 
> You said, "unless the motors get hot", and well, just as you pointed out with the siamese 8's, they do, they get very hot when they cannot sustain the kw demands of the battery pack..that's when the internals melt and they fall apart.
> 
> Tesseract proved this with his experiments with a standard warp9. 100kw was deemed the maximum power a warp9 can take till it starts melting. A warp11HV was able to do 372kw, repeatedly down the dragstrip by Crodriver. Can the Warp9 be built to put out more than 100kw, sure, after Jim H. works his magic on them, are they each tolerating 372kw? We dont know. What is the maximum amount of power Warp11HVs can take? We dont know. The assumption is that the larger motor will be able to tolerate more power from the pack before failure/melting, therefore, the larger motor is capable of being more powerful.


Yes, but that doesn't mean that if 8's are too small and 9's survive 500 kW for 10 seconds that 11's will be faster and 13's will really scream. There seems to be this "more powerful motor" chant going on that is not backed up by the motor weight installed in the fastest EVs out there. A pair of 13's (for example) will set you back about 700 lb. Is the improvement in efficiency going to be able to make up for the 450 lb. weight increase over a pair of Impulse 9's? 

We need to get past saying a "motor is more powerful" and talk more accurately. The motor will take more power power continuously or will take more amps for 10 seconds or it will be 4% more efficient at 1000 amps. Drag racing is about power and weight. Weight can't be ignored because it is part of the drive train (even though skimping there has its own hazards.)


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

EVfun said:


> *Yes, but that doesn't mean that if 8's are too small and 9's survive 500 kW for 10 seconds that 11's will be faster and 13's will really scream.* There seems to be this "more powerful motor" chant going on that is not backed up by the motor weight installed in the fastest EVs out there. A pair of 13's (for example) will set you back about 700 lb. Is the improvement in efficiency going to be able to make up for the 450 lb. weight increase over a pair of Impulse 9's?
> 
> We need to get past saying a "motor is more powerful" and talk more accurately. The motor will take more power power continuously or will take more amps for 10 seconds or it will be 4% more efficient at 1000 amps. Drag racing is about power and weight. Weight can't be ignored because it is part of the drive train (even though skimping there has its own hazards.)


Ive only been talking about power into motors, you're talking about who is faster...and all this power to weight stuff, and pretty much all over the place.

YES, there are numerous factors that come into play when drag racing, old news.

I don't think this is going anywhere so good luck with your "talking more accurately"


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ewert said:


> Or maybe ...
> 
> http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14616
> 
> ...


Nice Add!

I wonder why these cells aren't used?

Hypothetical pack:

333V (15 in series)
50AH (10 in parallel)
150cells total
16.65kwh (if the EV was lightweight and got 200wh/mile) = 83miles (@ 100%DoD)
278lbs total pack weight (minus misc. connectors & braces, etc.)
$13,500usd
Constant A = 2250
Burst A = 4500
Charge Amps per cell = 10C (50A)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think he's trying to make the point that if the motor can survive the max output of the battery pack then going to a larger motor, with the same battery pack, will not really put more power to the road, and will cost you a weight penalty.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think he's trying to make the point that if the motor can survive the max output of the battery pack then going to a larger motor, with the same battery pack, will not really put more power to the road, and will cost you a weight penalty.


Indeed, and if said as clearly as the above would have saved a few posts.

Since we do not know what the power is of the pack that the Lithiumracing ECEDRA guy is planning to use, we cannot speculate on whether or not 11's are more suitable than 9's or vice versa...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Ive only been talking about power into motors, you're talking about who is faster...and all this power to weight stuff, and pretty much all over the place.


...and why are we talking about power in this thread? It's in title!

I wish the discussion had been about the power *into* the motors, but what I originally replied to was, "Both 11" motors will produce more torque and HP than Zombie's car." The reality is, unless he can stuff more volts and/or more amps into the motors the power difference will be minimal.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Don't I remember a thread discussing these motors and that under very high output the efficiency dropped a lot to like 50% ?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Again, no. Power is determined by the volts and amps that get out of the controller(s). The motors are only a conversion device from watts to shaft HP. Unless the motors get too hot (for example, John was having problems keeping his 8's together) there isn't much to gain from going with larger motors. At some point the small efficiency gains will even be outweighed by the vehicle weight increase from a larger motor.
> 
> 746 watts is 1 HP. In reality it will be less than 1 HP because no motor is 100% efficient. The chosen motors will effect efficiency, that will be the only difference in output horsepower for a given input watts.


 Gentlemen,

Thank you for taking the time to discuss our new motors. You can produce more torque/HP with larger motors. Yes, the motors must be fed with the correct amount of AMP/Volts. We have completed our DD, we trust our new twin NetGain 11" motors combined with our "High Amped" new Soliton controller will do the job. Wait until I post pictures of the new aluminum rear differentials, very nice! 

GLTA!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> If you were to tube frame or semi-tube frame the 300zx and use fiberglass or carbon fiber body panels you would probably be able to compete with the zombie in weight, add to that the dual 11" motors and you would for sure have a rocket (would need some seriously wide slicks though)...as it was mentioned, zombie wants to keep the car stock to compete in a certain class, that doesn't mean you have too...


I have given this alot of thought, not going to radical to stay within the stock class. My question on Zombie's car is how is he able to maintain the label of "street class" when his rear differential is completely modified from the original? Once you replace the rear differential to a modified custom rear diff this should take you out of that class.


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

Hello Everyone,

A while back, this was posted:

<...the serious Kokams also only have a 500 cycle charge life.>

I consider the Zombie's 22.7 kWh pack 'serious Kokams'. Tested at a full 100% discharge, the ultra high power type cells we are using were put through 1400+ cycles, and they still had 84% capacity afterwards...this was at 100% discharges! At 80% discharges they gave 2400+ cycles with 94% capacity left.

Other interesting stats on our cells...though they were new cells, they were made in 2007 and so were three years old when we unpacked them. The 1st cycle test of 4 random cells revealed 105% of rated ahr capacity. After 5 cycles, the 30 ahr rated cells (32 ah @ C2) easily gave 35 ah.

At 900 amps (1800 amps per paralleled pair), the cells sag from 4.05V to 3.05V, and at 1560 amps per cell, the lowest cell voltage we saw was 2.44V...this, from 7.5 inch square, 1/3 inch thick, 1.8 lb. cells. Unlike some other types of lithium cells, we do not have to externally heat them up to get this kind of power. In fact, the cells do not heat themselves up much even under very high currents. We measured 10 degrees F above ambient after hard runs at the track. We have cooling fans only for the BMS heat sinks... no cooling is needed for the cells themselves. Having a good sized pack in terms of kWh has its advantages, too. We ran two consecutive 10.2 seconds runs without recharging, and both runs had the same 123 mph trap speed. The car was then driven hard on the street, then uphill back home for 16 miles, and still had 3.89V per cell (3.7V nominal).

See Ya...John Wayland


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The White Zombie records are in the PS (Pro Street) class. Only the SC (Street Conversion) class includes "so long as the stock housing is retained" as a requirement.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

EVfun said:


> The White Zombie records are in the PS (Pro Street) class. Only the SC (Street Conversion) class includes "so long as the stock housing is retained" as a requirement.


Thank you, I haven't researched his class yet.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> Don't I remember a thread discussing these motors and that under very high output the efficiency dropped a lot to like 50% ?


Not sure really, Crodriver has dyno charts and videos showing the 500whp number...from a single warp 11HV, ~270V & ~1400A = ~378kw


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

John Wayland said:


> I consider the Zombie's 22.7 kWh pack 'serious Kokams'. Tested at a full 100% discharge, the ultra high power type cells we are using were put through 1400+ cycles, and they still had 84% capacity afterwards...this was at 100% discharges! At 80% discharges they gave 2400+ cycles with 94% capacity left.


That's much better than I've ever heard, very impressive! Now all you have to tell me is that they are much cheaper than I've heard as well


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> That's much better than I've ever heard, very impressive! Now all you have to tell me is that they are much cheaper than I've heard as well


 John's data gives me more confidence in the claims from DBM Energy. DBM says they will be cheaper than existing Li cells, question is how much, and which ones - A123? Great to get that kind of data! Thanks John.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Yay John wayland is here!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Yay John wayland is here!


Might have been a hit and run


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I think it's funny that we both made the comparison to the world's fastest supercars. John Wayland, Tim Brehm, and White Zombie have broken a major milestone in EV history here.


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## sandos (Oct 29, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Nice Add!
> 
> I wonder why these cells aren't used?
> 
> ...


I can think of a few reasons they are not used (widely):

Abysmal QA, count on a fairly high % of cells being broken on arrival.

Volatility?

Inflated specs. Seeing as hobbykings normal 40C batteries seem better than the 45C-90C nanotechs for some people (me included) I would not really trust these specs.

Still fairly new, these nanotechs were introduced not long ago.


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