# Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*



> papertiger00 wrote:
> >
> > i was looking at http://www.theaircar.com and they are using compressed
> > air in order to power a vehicle. it is a fairly simply concept but i am
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*



> On 22 Jul 2008 at 0:08, papertiger00 wrote:
> 
> > was looking at http://www.theaircar.com and they are using compressed
> > air ... why not use the same concept as the air car ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

> i was looking at http://www.theaircar.com and they are using compressed
> air
> in order to power a vehicle. it is a fairly simply concept but i am
> curious
> every one talks about using diesel generators and such in order to make a
> hybrid but why not use the same concept as the air car but using the air
> power to charge the system, batteries etc.

Two reasons:
A) this is the EV list not air car list
B) they are very inefficient.

You can't use compressed air as a power source, it's simply a storage
medium (like electricity). I.e. you can't find compressed air lying
around, you can't mine it, and you can't dig a well for it. Just like
electricyt you have to put energy into creating it.
Electricity is a lighter and more efficient way to store energy on a vehicle.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

Electricity is a lighter and more efficient way to store energy on a
vehicle.

Really< I have read on the air cars, they impress me. 

The compressed air is stored in tanks under the car. Heavier than batteries?
Air coming out the tailpipe is non polluting, pretty sure.
The inefficiency that I see is the running of the compressor, as a matter of
fact, it is the only recurring expense.

Enough said, I'm done David.

Mark


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

> Air coming out the tailpipe is non polluting, pretty sure.

With large high capacity air compressors, one of the huge
problems is filtering enough of the compressor OIL
out of the air to make the air useful. The higher the pressure...the more oil.


-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

The only reason to consider a compressed air engine/ generator combo 
as an APU would be if its cost and weight was less than adding 
additional battery storage. The combined system would need to have an 
energy density significantly higher than the LiFePO4 battery, and at a 
better cost basis. I doubt that is the case.



> lyn williams wrote:
> 
> >> Air coming out the tailpipe is non polluting, pretty sure.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

Wow, So all those people that dive with 3000psi on their backs are having
breathing problems. 

Obviously a special compressor or filtering, still very doable and a
possible solution equal to EVs.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of lyn williams
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

> Air coming out the tailpipe is non polluting, pretty sure.

With large high capacity air compressors, one of the huge
problems is filtering enough of the compressor OIL
out of the air to make the air useful. The higher the pressure...the more
oil.


-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

Roger,
I'm not suggesting an air hybrid, that was someone else. 

The air car I have read about has 3000psi spun carbon fiber (I think) tanks.
It has an air motor to propel the car and a small petrol driven compressor
in case you get caught too far from home. At home you have an electric
compressor that maintains a set of dump tanks to quick fill the vehicle. 

Again no batteries to replace. Only obvious loss I see is creating the
compressed air and having to replace the tanks periodically due to stress
and age.

Sorry, I don't like going off topic, especially after David says to stop but
I am finding it special.


Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

The only reason to consider a compressed air engine/ generator combo 
as an APU would be if its cost and weight was less than adding 
additional battery storage. The combined system would need to have an 
energy density significantly higher than the LiFePO4 battery, and at a 
better cost basis. I doubt that is the case.



> lyn williams wrote:
> 
> >> Air coming out the tailpipe is non polluting, pretty sure.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

this message wasn't meant to spark everything about the air car. it was just
meant that nothing is perfect and so why not try something else. i am not
looking at a full size version like the car has or ones built as backup for
hospitals and such. just thinking like a small rotational engine to produce
power the rotaional can run without any real oil they make "air" bearings or
standard bearing for rotaion.
i am just looking for a way to recharge without haveing to stop and plug in
is all





> markgrasser wrote:
> >
> > Wow, So all those people that dive with 3000psi on their backs are having
> > breathing problems.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

> Wow, So all those people that dive with 3000psi on their backs are having
> breathing problems. 

Acutally....without replacing the filter that fills up (2.5 quarts) of compressor oil in a period
of 4.5 hours...nope...they wouldn't have any trouble breathing at all...because they would be
quite dead.


-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

>
> this message wasn't meant to spark everything about the air car. it was
> just
> meant that nothing is perfect and so why not try something else. i am not
> looking at a full size version like the car has or ones built as backup
> for
> hospitals and such. just thinking like a small rotational engine to
> produce
> power the rotaional can run without any real oil they make "air" bearings
> or
> standard bearing for rotaion.
> i am just looking for a way to recharge without haveing to stop and plug
> in
> is all
>

The oil issue is from lubricating the piston sleeves, not the bearings.

Where do you think you'll get the compressed air from? I assume you mean
to carry it with you?

If you're going to carry it with you, as a back up to your EV, read my
earlier post about the weight of SCUBA tanks.

A typical SCUBA tank stores as much energy as an Exide Orbital AGM
battery, and weighs the same amount. The tank also takes up about two to
three times as much volume.

If you can carry the compressed air, then you can carry more batteries
instead, and save on the multiple conversion losses from the compressed
air (electricity to mechanical power to compressed air to mechanical power
to electricity)



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

>
> this message wasn't meant to spark everything about the air car. it was
> just
> meant that nothing is perfect and so why not try something else. i am not
> looking at a full size version like the car has or ones built as backup
> for
> hospitals and such. just thinking like a small rotational engine to
> produce
> power the rotaional can run without any real oil they make "air" bearings
> or
> standard bearing for rotaion.
> i am just looking for a way to recharge without haveing to stop and plug
> in
> is all

I should add, once you include the extra weight/volume for the air motor
and generator, the compressed air solution weighs a LOT more and takes up
a lot more space than batteries.
Once you add in the losses, air motor ~75% and generator ~80%, it ends up
storing less energy.

So it ends up weighing more and/or storing less usable energy than batteries.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

>> Wow, So all those people that dive with 3000psi on their backs are
>> having
>> breathing problems.
>
> Acutally....without replacing the filter that fills up (2.5 quarts) of
> compressor oil in a period
> of 4.5 hours...nope...they wouldn't have any trouble breathing at
> all...because they would be
> quite dead.

What size compressor are you talking about?
I have an oiless compressor so I don't have to worry about it, but I don't
think the the guy at the local scuba shop goes through oil that fast. 
Then again, his compressor can only fill 3-4 tanks in an hour.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

Thats just a personal choice for application. There may be an application
for a small air generator to effectively increase range, not as a primary.
I'm sure its a lot easier to find coin operated air stations than EV
charging stations.

Not that I would go the air engine generator route, but your dismissing a
technology based on personal preference. That I don't understand. Again,
lots of personal opinions flying around, but few facts....



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > this message wasn't meant to spark everything about the air car. it was
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

For the rocket scientist who are hell bent in their ignorance....

http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm

David, I'm done... So no need to comment.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on


>
>> i was looking at http://www.theaircar.com and they are using compressed
>> air
>> in order to power a vehicle. it is a fairly simply concept but i am
>> curious
>> every one talks about using diesel generators and such in order to make a
>> hybrid but why not use the same concept as the air car but using the air
>> power to charge the system, batteries etc.
>
> Two reasons:
> A) this is the EV list not air car list
> B) they are very inefficient.
>
> You can't use compressed air as a power source, it's simply a storage
> medium (like electricity). I.e. you can't find compressed air lying
> around, you can't mine it, and you can't dig a well for it. Just like
> electricyt you have to put energy into creating it.
> Electricity is a lighter and more efficient way to store energy on a 
> vehicle.
>
Thank You, Peter!This old thread just comes BACK over an' over like a, 
flat tire, raised comm bar, reversed cell! Check out your OLD Street Railway 
Journals, back to the 1880's. Yes, They SORTA worked, It is true a few 
systems were built and did run ,oh so-so. A LOT cleaner than horses, steam 
locos, cheaper than Cable cars.When Electrics came out out ,the Hot Aire 
guyz dumped it all and hopped on the electric bandwagon!The problens back 
then, wre the heat developed in the compression process, heat= energy loss. 
Look at some Locomotives, ya see a zig zag set up of Air pipes , often 
running under the walkway on a" Geep" type engine.to help cool the 
compressed air from the BIG compresser for running the brakes. Hung 
SOMEWHERE aboard, and they only run 140 PSI! And, Sports Fans, remember the 
Diseasel Engine engine is also known as a" Compression/ Ignition Engine", 
too.Sez something there?

We know better. Batteri is the way to go; Solar displays, Wind Turbines, 
etc. Skipping lossy heat issues.

Seeya

Bob, plugging along.
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed air or
hydraulic system as a braking system on the front wheels to recover a higher
percentage of the energy of braking. Compressed air was also interesting
because, as previously noted, you can pick up a little at a gas station if
it happens to be a hot day. Most interesting to me was that if you run it
through the exhaust side of a turbo charger you end up with cool air to cool
the cabin of the car with. (to be really effecitve put a heat exchanger
between the braking motors and the tank) As a byproduct you would have to
absorb the energy generated by the exhaust side of turbo somehow and so I
thought an alternator would work nicely as you can adjust the field to get
the desired speed. This will put energy back in the batt pack from braking
at a rate that is more battery friendly. In the winter time you might be
able to negate the current draw of a blower motor.

That said it doesn't make sense on smaller vehicles and ultimately R134 Air
con systems weigh less than this system and don't use as much power as the
drag on the front wheels most likely caused by the system, when it isn't
braking, consumes. However a lower pressure tank and a very small turbo
could be used as an inexpensive used parts type solution to airconditioning.
In that scenario I would set it up like the airliner pack system by running
the compressed air through the compressor first then into a radiator then
into the turbo exhaust side to the cabin. Again that is a bunch of air
volume though so this is probably not practical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_cycle_machine

So regenerative braking that also gives you cool air for the cabin, or air
conditioning the hard way. Not likely to be implemented by me but I have
certainly considered it before today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rice [mailto:[email protected]xxx.xxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:28 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on



----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on


>
>> i was looking at http://www.theaircar.com and they are using compressed
>> air
>> in order to power a vehicle. it is a fairly simply concept but i am
>> curious
>> every one talks about using diesel generators and such in order to make a
>> hybrid but why not use the same concept as the air car but using the air
>> power to charge the system, batteries etc.
>
> Two reasons:
> A) this is the EV list not air car list
> B) they are very inefficient.
>
> You can't use compressed air as a power source, it's simply a storage
> medium (like electricity). I.e. you can't find compressed air lying
> around, you can't mine it, and you can't dig a well for it. Just like
> electricyt you have to put energy into creating it.
> Electricity is a lighter and more efficient way to store energy on a
> vehicle.
>
Thank You, Peter!This old thread just comes BACK over an' over like a,
flat tire, raised comm bar, reversed cell! Check out your OLD Street Railway
Journals, back to the 1880's. Yes, They SORTA worked, It is true a few
systems were built and did run ,oh so-so. A LOT cleaner than horses, steam
locos, cheaper than Cable cars.When Electrics came out out ,the Hot Aire
guyz dumped it all and hopped on the electric bandwagon!The problens back
then, wre the heat developed in the compression process, heat= energy loss.
Look at some Locomotives, ya see a zig zag set up of Air pipes , often
running under the walkway on a" Geep" type engine.to help cool the
compressed air from the BIG compresser for running the brakes. Hung
SOMEWHERE aboard, and they only run 140 PSI! And, Sports Fans, remember the
Diseasel Engine engine is also known as a" Compression/ Ignition Engine",
too.Sez something there?

We know better. Batteri is the way to go; Solar displays, Wind Turbines,
etc. Skipping lossy heat issues.

Seeya

Bob, plugging along.
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

> I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed air
> or
> hydraulic system as a braking system on the front wheels to recover a
> higher
> percentage of the energy of braking. Compressed air was also interesting
> because, as previously noted, you can pick up a little at a gas station if
> it happens to be a hot day.

Sheesh, I guess I should have responded on list. The 2-3 SCM @ 90-100 PSI
you find at gas stations is a far cry from the THOUSANDS of PSI these air
cars run on.

The compressed air at gas stations is practically useless as an energy
source for EVs.

Assuming you could build an incredibly efficient Air motor and couple it
to an incredibly efficient generator it would probably take 2-3 hours to
recharge you EV enough to go 1 mile. It would only take 30-40 minutes to
push it that far.
If you are in moderately good shape, you could recharge faster with a
pedal powered generator.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

I want to put a windmill on my EV so I will never have to chargethe
batteries. The windmill can charge the batteries while I drive
on the highway. Since it is so efficient, I dont have to have
the windmill up while I am parked.

;o)

-- 
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

> I want to put a windmill on my EV so I will never have to chargethe
> batteries. The windmill can charge the batteries while I drive
> on the highway. Since it is so efficient, I dont have to have
> the windmill up while I am parked.

It's easier to put big wheels on the back and small wheels on the front. 
That way you're always driving downhill.

;^)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed air
> >> or
> >> hydraulic system as a braking system on the front wheels to recover a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700, "Marty Mercer" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >For the rocket scientist who are hell bent in their ignorance....
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

I have been trying to stay out of this thread since it is a bit OT, 
but I feel compelled to say something in this regard. John, your 
correct that most of the energy goes into heat, but does it need to be 
wasted? That heat can be recovered and used to heat a hot water 
storage tank, or provide space heating, etc. I thought about and 
dismissed the air powered car idea quite a while ago, but in a niche 
application where you can recover and use the heat of compression and 
frictional heat, it could work. Also, it is possible to compress air 
without oil, so those who suggest that there is oil pollution 
inherently involved are not correct. All electric is just such better 
way to go.



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > When your shop air compressor runs, where does most
> > of the energy end up? That's right, heat. That's why air
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today by
the petrol and car companies.

Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea with
no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a failure.
Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

Air car cost Electric car
cost
Recurring expenses compress air	3.00/day
recharge battery 2.00/day	
Maintenance none 0.00
new batteries every 5 years	30,000.00

Maybe we would find it different then you say, maybe not but without basis
in fact all you are doing is wasting my bandwidth.


Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700, "Marty Mercer" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >For the rocket scientist who are hell bent in their ignorance....
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most likely
to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC. It is one
of those many ideas I considered early on but had to dismiss due to weight
and size issues.

My only point is before you try to question my line of thought please at
least read the conclusion.



> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed
> >>> air
> >>> or
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

Come on, guys. This thread is off topic and is generating some glowing 
embers (not flames yet). Please end it voluntarily now, so I don't have to 
get down the moderation club.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:47:32 -0400, "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
> >this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

John, David, all.
Sorry I needed to defend my purported inability to read.

This below is the conclusion from a study done on the viability of the air
car. It has nothing to do with the losses of compressing air, same as Lee
explaining that it has nothing to do with the cost of pumping the crude out
of the ground and turning it into gasoline. It has EVERYTHING to do with the
cost to the consumer and the cost to the environment.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

OK, I think I'm done.



Thermodynamic Analysis of
Compressed Air Vehicle Propulsion
Ulf Bossel
European Fuel Cell Forum
Morgenacherstrasse 2F
CH-5452 Oberrohrdorf / Switzerland

For the operation of a compressed air car the overall "plug-to-road"
efficiency is
one of the key criteria. The optimum is obtained when maximum technical work
Wt34 becomes available at a minimum of technical work Wt12 input for air
compression. From the foregoing analysis it becomes clear that both
compression and expansion must proceed close to the isothermal limit. This
can only be accomplished with multi-stage compression and expansion
processes with heat exchangers for removal or addition of heat to the medium
to establish close to ambient conditions.
The foregoing analysis may not be the first of its kind and certainly needs
refinements. In particular, the thermodynamics of heat exchange, mechanical
and aerodynamic losses, electrical efficiencies etc. need to be considered.
All
these effects may reduce the overall efficiency to 40% or less. The total
process
efficiency may be improved by increasing the number of compression and
expansion stages. However, such efficiencies may still be attractive in a
sustainable energy future when renewable energy is harvested as electricity
and transportation needs must be satisfied from available energy sources.
With
respect to overall efficiency, battery-electric vehicles may be better than
air
cars, but hydrogen fuel cell systems may be worse. However, with respect to
system and operating costs, air cars may offer many advantages such as
simplicity, cost, independence, zero pollution and environmental
friendliness of
all system components.
All in all, the compressed air car seems to be a viable option for clean and
efficient short range transportation. Further analyses, additional research
and
development are most welcome to fully identify the potentials of this
unconventional source of transportation energy.

Mark Grasser
Balyntec
Marine Products, LLC
828-581-4601
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:47:32 -0400, "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
> >this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

> As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
> replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
> using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most likely
> to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC. It is one
> of those many ideas I considered early on but had to dismiss due to weight
> and size issues.

The reason I didn't comment on the rest is you appeared to have figured
out already that it wasn't practical. Forgive me if I misread you.

Compressed air cooling isn't practical for EVs. Try building a system on
the bench and seeing how effective it is.
Using a compressor might give you some breaking (how would you control
it?) but not much compressed air.

If you don't have a compressor, go to a hardware store and look at them. 
The 110V ones take several minutes to fill a small tank to 100psi. This
is using approx 1 kw energy input. think about how long that would take
to fill the same tank if you used it for a few seconds worth of regen at a
time.

Do the bench test above and see how quickly the tank empties if you try to
use it for cooling.
A better cooling idea than your turbo is a Vortex tube, but even it
requires way to much air to be useful.

Yeah you might get a tiny bit of cooling (basically useless) for a large
amount of extra weight and complexity. You'd be better off carrying an
extra battery and using a peltier cooler (and peltiers are a poor solution
for cooling an EV)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

> You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
> this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell
> bent
> on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
> better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today
> by
> the petrol and car companies.

I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)

> Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
> but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea
> with
> no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a
> failure.
> Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

However, the air car thing has been beat to death on this list in the
past. Even using the data provided by the makers, it is at best equal to
and in most respects worse than an EV. It doesn't have any better range. 
It can't be recharged much if any faster (there are heat issues even when
filling one tank from another), and all of the proposed "filling" stations
use electricity to run the compressors. When you look at the real data
for miles per kwh from the outlet, EVs win hands down.

If you don't believe me check the archives or do the research yourself. 
This is not the place for it and I'm not going to waste any more time, or
bandwidth, on it.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

wow...what a neat idea! bet that one takes solar panels on the roof AND a windmill!

> I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
> to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
> Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)

-- 
lyn williams <[email protected]>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that i wonder on*

I am sorry that this went the way it did it was never meant to start this
whole mess. as i said i know it is ineffcient but a gas car is only 20%
effcient. you can run thermoelectric conductors in oder to make more energy
so the loss can be recovered. i was just looking for something besides
running a gas generator making a hybrid and the ev concept useless. 

but as the mods have said this needs to end so i apologize for starting a
war in small numbers
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/question-that-i-wonder-on-tp18583701p18612982.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lyn williams" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on


> wow...what a neat idea! bet that one takes solar panels on the roof AND a 
> windmill!
>

Nah! All it takes is two skinny little wires hung up over the road<g> 
That they could neither push nor shove, It's witchcraft? Nah? simple 
electricity, been arounfd for hundreds of years. Or hang ONE up over a RR 
trak?Put that 'ol truk on the TRAIN! It and 300 others wafted along with the 
"breath of Lightning"

No EV's aren't the answer to the World's Problems, but show me anything 
that works better for getting about locally?Simply, easy to make and own, 
etc. Well I'm preaching to the Choir here, but still?

Seeya

Bob

>> I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
>> to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
>> Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)
>
> -- 
> lyn williams <[email protected]>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>

<snip> People on this list are hell bent on replacing all the cars in the
world with electric. <snip>

In other news the Pope is reportedly Catholic.

This is an EV list. Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Erik

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*

Well and here I thought we were a bunch of engineers out to better the world
by looking at everything and going with the best (which the EV may be, only
time will tell)

BTW, I was born and raised catholic, Found it to be slanted so have moved on
the better things.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Erik
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>

<snip> People on this list are hell bent on replacing all the cars in the
world with electric. <snip>

In other news the Pope is reportedly Catholic.

This is an EV list. Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Erik

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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on*



> Erik wrote:
> > <snip> People on this list are hell bent on replacing all the cars in
> > the world with electric. <snip>
> >
> ...


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