# [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Helllo,
I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW. It is g=
oing to take me some time to sort through all of these. I sure hope this vo=
lume of mail is a first time "make-up" mailing and not an everyday occuranc=
e.

My name is Jason Solivais. I joined because I am interested in teaching a c=
lass on EV conversions at the local high school. I am in the early research=
phase now; collecting info for the class and trying to decide if I should =
start a nonprofit company to secure funding.

I currently work with EOT(electrical overhead traveling) overhead cranes as=
an emergency callman. In other words, when they break, I go out and find t=
he problem and fix it if possible. I mainly work with 240VDC but we also ha=
ve 480VAC 3phase cranes.

Does anyone have some suggestions on course curriculum for an EV class and =
how it should progress?

Thanks,

Jason Solivais
Northwest Indiana
219-793-5507
[email protected]


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 23:18:31 -0400
> Subject: [EVDL] How to introduce new topic?
> =

> Hello,
> I just joined and have been getting a lot of emails. I have gone bac=
k to set to Digest to reduce the volume (I hope). What I am having problem=
s with is tracking the topics. Several topics are going on simultaneously =
and I can't keep them straight. If I reply to an email, does this get sent=
to everyone? I am new to this type of discussion list.
> Lastly, I would like to introduce myself to the members on the list. =
I bring a lot of engineering OEM knowledge (including electric vehicles, w=
orked 5 yrs on EV1 at GM) and Tier 1 suppliers, and now I am an entrepreneu=
r trying to start my own Electric Low Speed Vehicle company in Detroit. I =
am a member of EAA in Michigan, I am almost done with my Cavalier conversio=
n, and want desperately to help people doing conversions to do them better,=
safer, and more reliably. Lastly, I am in process of writing a book to he=
lp understand conversions from more of an OEM's standpoint. I can't tell p=
eople how to do their conversion, only educate them on the consequences of =
their decisions.
> How do I do this?
> Thanks
> =

> Best Regards,
> Richard W. Marks
> President
> EnVironmental Transportation Solutions, LLC
> 313-717-4321
> www.EcoVElectric.com
> http://EcoVElectric.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=3DEML_WL_ GreaterG=
ood
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 May 2008 at 23:17, Jason Solivais wrote:
> 
> > I sure hope this volume of mail is a first time "make-up" mailing and
> > not an everyday occurance.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jason,

Yesterday was 95 emails, so I guess it is about average ;-)
I keep a separate folder and my email program sorts all [EVDL]
emails into that program, so I can still find my regular email =

in my inbox and I need to switch to a separate EVDL folder to
browse (or ignore) the harvest of the day.

Anyways, some time ago I proposed (and was invited by one teacher)
to the local High School district that they should put some EV
content into their car mechanics class, as soon more and more EV drive
would become mainstream.
That was 2 years ago and I have not been invited back, though to
be fair to the teacher that did invite me - he was very interested
but has been battling with cancer last year, so there was little
opportunity to be asked back.

What my angle in that one class was, is the change in automotive
force and what will be different and what stays the same.
Then I showed an actual EV (outside the classroom) and went
back in for a Q&A round. Of course I had something to touch,
like a few batteries and such. And pictures, for example the
Tesla was *just* released at that time (which dates the time
that I taught that class)

I know our own Lee has experience in reaching the kids in
BEST classes, but I have the impression that there are more
teachers on the block.

The subject is appropriate (and this is my main filter
as to which emails to read and which to skip) so I expect that
others will join in with their stories.

Regards and success,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3D3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Jason Solivais
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum

Helllo,
I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW. It is g=
oing to take me some time to sort through all of these. I sure hope this vo=
lume of mail is a first time "make-up" mailing and not an everyday occuranc=
e.

My name is Jason Solivais. I joined because I am interested in teaching a c=
lass on EV conversions at the local high school. I am in the early research=
phase now; collecting info for the class and trying to decide if I should =
start a nonprofit company to secure funding.

I currently work with EOT(electrical overhead traveling) overhead cranes as=
an emergency callman. In other words, when they break, I go out and find t=
he problem and fix it if possible. I mainly work with 240VDC but we also ha=
ve 480VAC 3phase cranes.

Does anyone have some suggestions on course curriculum for an EV class and =
how it should progress?

Thanks,

Jason Solivais
Northwest Indiana
219-793-5507
[email protected]


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 23:18:31 -0400
> Subject: [EVDL] How to introduce new topic?
> =

> Hello,
> I just joined and have been getting a lot of emails. I have gone bac=
k to set to Digest to reduce the volume (I hope). What I am having problem=
s with is tracking the topics. Several topics are going on simultaneously =
and I can't keep them straight. If I reply to an email, does this get sent=
to everyone? I am new to this type of discussion list.
> Lastly, I would like to introduce myself to the members on the list. =
I bring a lot of engineering OEM knowledge (including electric vehicles, w=
orked 5 yrs on EV1 at GM) and Tier 1 suppliers, and now I am an entrepreneu=
r trying to start my own Electric Low Speed Vehicle company in Detroit. I =
am a member of EAA in Michigan, I am almost done with my Cavalier conversio=
n, and want desperately to help people doing conversions to do them better,=
safer, and more reliably. Lastly, I am in process of writing a book to he=
lp understand conversions from more of an OEM's standpoint. I can't tell p=
eople how to do their conversion, only educate them on the consequences of =
their decisions.
> How do I do this?
> Thanks
> =

> Best Regards,
> Richard W. Marks
> President
> EnVironmental Transportation Solutions, LLC
> 313-717-4321
> www.EcoVElectric.com
> http://EcoVElectric.blogspot.com =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=3DEML_WL_ GreaterG=
ood _______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jason

Amp Mobile Conversions near Charlotte, NC has periodic mini workshops. =

The one scheduled for June 6th to 9th is full and they will be =

converting one of our member's Mazda pickup trucks during that =

workshop. There is a third workshop scheduled for June 27th to June =

30th and it was close to being full early last week. If you are =

interested in receiving some "hands-on" experience in class size, scope, =

interactions, etc., this may be of interest to you. Cost is $400. I've =

heard good things about their first workshop. The June 6th workshop =

will be their second one. They can be reached at =

[email protected]

The book "Convert It" by Michael Brown and Shari Prange is our "Bible" =

for converting vehicles. Developing a class based on the book would be =

a good idea. Safety is stressed. They used to have workshops but I =

don't know if they are doing that any more. I would check their site =

http://electroauto.com/ and then send them an email. They might have =

some materials they could send you. Beats reinventing the wheel.

The EV Challenge is an organization that promotes the building of =

alternative transportation among high schools. You can reach Jennifer =

Whitley at [email protected] You may want to find out what schools =

are actively building vehicles and get up with their shop teachers.

It would be interesting to see you post your work plan on a web site and =

later, your thoughts of it strengths and weaknesses. =


Best of luck to you. We need EVs on the road.

Peter

cc [email protected]




> Jason Solivais wrote:
> > Helllo,
> > I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW. It is=
> going to take me some time to sort through all of these. I sure hope this =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> My name is Jason Solivais. I joined because I am interested in
>> teaching a class on EV conversions at the local high school...
>> Does anyone have some suggestions on course curriculum for an EV
>> class and how it should progress?



> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > What my angle in that one class was, is the change in automotive
> > force and what will be different and what stays the same.
> > Then I showed an actual EV (outside the classroom) and went
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Helllo,
> I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW.

Only 98? Huh...well the list does tend to slow down when the weather
warms up.

Anyway, how many vehicles have you converted?

Welcome to the list.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Huh, I guess I missed the point of the class.
Granted the original post didn't give much information, but I'd gathered
it was going to be a class on HOW to convert ICE cars to electric.

I didn't think it was supposed to be a social-political class on the
values of electric and the evils of gas.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Bath <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snip]
> > 14) Some people refer to this vehicle as solar
> > powered. Is it? What are three reasons it makes no
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's not a social political class. But it is a class where students should learn more than lefty loosey righty tighty. 

What about motors? Many people run series DC. Some run 3 phase AC. If you run AC, do you want a compound motor? Series ? Shunt? Wound rotor? Syncronous? Induction?

When running DC motors does any one use a dynamic braking circuit to stop?

Jason Solivais
Northwest Indiana
[email protected] 

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 5:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum

Huh, I guess I missed the point of the class.
Granted the original post didn't give much information, but I'd gathered
it was going to be a class on HOW to convert ICE cars to electric.

I didn't think it was supposed to be a social-political class on the
values of electric and the evils of gas.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jason Solivais,
I think what you are trying to do is great. I have been in automotive =

over 36 years primarily in product design and program management. I am a =

member of EAA which I highly recommend you consider joining and your =

students. We help our members do conversion vehicles. With my automotive =

background and work at General Motors on EV1 and conversion vehicles, I hav=
e =

major concerns about the way EV conversions are being done. Most are =

hobbyists and enthusiasts, which is good; but these people and many of the =

people calling themselves experts, are not and do not understand how OEM's =

do things particularly from a safety and reliability standpoint. High =

voltage can kill you! It needs to be treated with respect. Most people =

doing conversions do not have the knowledge to base their decisions on how =

they are doing things. My book provides that knowledge.
I am currently writing a book that is significantly different than what =

is currently out there because it focuses on how an OEM might do a =

conversion that focuses on reliability, safety and affordability. I am =

currently converting a 1997 Cavalier to electric and it is almost done. We =

are scheduled to give a workshop on doing conversions at the Michigan Energ=
y =

Fair in June. It might be worthwhile coming to it and talking with us.
http://www.glrea.org/events/MichiganEnergyFair2008/index.php
Regards, Richard

----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Jason Solivais" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 12:17 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


Helllo,
I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW. It is =

going to take me some time to sort through all of these. I sure hope this =

volume of mail is a first time "make-up" mailing and not an everyday =

occurance.

My name is Jason Solivais. I joined because I am interested in teaching a =

class on EV conversions at the local high school. I am in the early researc=
h =

phase now; collecting info for the class and trying to decide if I should =

start a nonprofit company to secure funding.

I currently work with EOT(electrical overhead traveling) overhead cranes as =

an emergency callman. In other words, when they break, I go out and find th=
e =

problem and fix it if possible. I mainly work with 240VDC but we also have =

480VAC 3phase cranes.

Does anyone have some suggestions on course curriculum for an EV class and =

how it should progress?

Thanks,

Jason Solivais
Northwest Indiana
219-793-5507
[email protected]


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 23:18:31 -0400
> Subject: [EVDL] How to introduce new topic?
>
> Hello,
> I just joined and have been getting a lot of emails. I have gone bac=
k =

> to set to Digest to reduce the volume (I hope). What I am having problem=
s =

> with is tracking the topics. Several topics are going on simultaneously =

> and I can't keep them straight. If I reply to an email, does this get =

> sent to everyone? I am new to this type of discussion list.
> Lastly, I would like to introduce myself to the members on the list. =

> I bring a lot of engineering OEM knowledge (including electric vehicles, =

> worked 5 yrs on EV1 at GM) and Tier 1 suppliers, and now I am an =

> entrepreneur trying to start my own Electric Low Speed Vehicle company in =

> Detroit. I am a member of EAA in Michigan, I am almost done with my =

> Cavalier conversion, and want desperately to help people doing conversion=
s =

> to do them better, safer, and more reliably. Lastly, I am in process of =

> writing a book to help understand conversions from more of an OEM's =

> standpoint. I can't tell people how to do their conversion, only educate =

> them on the consequences of their decisions.
> How do I do this?
> Thanks
>
> Best Regards,
> Richard W. Marks
> President
> EnVironmental Transportation Solutions, LLC
> 313-717-4321
> www.EcoVElectric.com
> http://EcoVElectric.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=3DEML_WL_ GreaterG=
ood
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are going to correct someone's "Facts" then you should be sure of
your own "Facts"
You are welcome to your "Beliefs", but the fact is that Flooded Lead Acid
batteries are the cheapest battery on LIFE CYCLE basis as well as inital
costs.

This has been documented on numerous occasions.

Personally I don't see a problem with using them. There have been a few
occasions when they've been problem, but simple precautions can avoid
these problems.

Granted they require some maintenance, but you can add on accessories that
make this trivial. Battery watering systems, catalytic caps, BMS, etc,
can all be used and they can reduce maintenance and maybe extend life.

A BMS is practically mandatory if you DON'T use Flooded PBAs. Though not
required, it offers similar advantages to flooded PBAs. If you have a
BMS, you can do away with routinely checking electrolyte levels. Add a
watering system and maintenance no becomes a 5 minute "chore" every other
month or so.

Even with a watering system and a BMS, flooded PBAs will come out cheaper
life cycle AND initially.

> I also do not believe flooded lead acid batteries belong in a
> road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offer any advantage
> except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle basis) and
> require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Richard, I don't mean to be critical but you seem confused about what const=
itues a "fact" and what constitutes an "opinion". In your entire post Item =
#13 and the definition of GVW limits appear to be the only facts, while eve=
rything else you state is an opinion.

1. If you remain within limits minus people then you can remain within the =
limits if you do not take on passengers that put you over the limit. Who ca=
res how many seating positions are actually in the vehicle. You can fit 20 =
people into an elevator, but that doesn't mean you actually do it.

2. It is YOUR opinion that floodies do not belong in a car. Let the applica=
tion determine the choice of storage medium.

3. What exactly defines a "serious" EV conversion? I'm serious about mine. =
Your criteria is arbitrary, determined soley by you.

4. SUV's often come with warning labels on the visor advising the owner tha=
t "this vehicle handles differently than passenger cars and other small tru=
cks". Yes, by approaching/exceeding the GVWR you have altered the vehicle's=
handling and stopping characteristics but if you compensate with mechanica=
l/structural upgrades and altered driving habits, there is nothing dangerou=
s, un-serious, jerry-rigged or ghetto about it. True, you wouldn't just han=
d the key to any newbie and say "drive it like a normal Honda" but as long =
as you educate the driver and upgrade the car, it's perfectly legitimate. H=
ell, I see ICE jalopies on the road that are WAY more dangerous than most o=
f the home conversions I've seen. Leaks, faulty brakes, cracked windshields=
, torn seatbelts, etc.

5. Extra weight hurts fuel economy. Depends. In an EV, the extra weight usu=
ally stores energy, it's not "dead" weight so your premise is wrong. True, =
there is a "point of diminishing returns" where you become nothing but a gi=
ant rolling battery that is impractical to drive.

6. "all kinds of preventative maintenance" is again, your opinion. I check =
my water levels about less often than people change their oil. Exotic chemi=
stry batteries also require maintenance, the difference is a BMS automates =
that maintenance so that it's transparent to you. You pay either in time sp=
ent doing the maintenance or a machine that does it for you. It's not your =
place to decide for others.

About the only opinion you've stated that I agree with is that clean wiring=
makes a conversion safer. The impression I take away from your post is tha=
t most of us shouldn't be driving our conversions and that REAL EV conversi=
ons are only for well-paid, anal retentive engineers with very deep pockets=
who can afford light, exotic chemistry batteries. As Lee says, "perfection=
is the enemy of good". If we all followed your frame of mind, most of us w=
ould be sitting on the edge of our beds thinking "golly gee I wish I could =
build a gas-free car but why bother since I can't build it perfectly?" inst=
ead of actually doing it and making an impact. That, is MY opinion.

As a historical footnote, General George Brinton McClellan was fired by Lin=
coln on November 9th 1962 because he was an elitist engineer who was so hun=
g up on building the perfect battle plan that he hardly ever engaged his tr=
oops in battle. And that my friend, is fact. =


http://www.civilwarhome.com/macbio.htm
___________________________________
Message: 28
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:20:42 -0400
From: "Richard Marks" =

Subject: Message: 28
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:20:42 -0400
From: "Richard Marks" =

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

Message-ID: =

Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"iso-8859-1";reply-typ=
e=3Doriginal =


Hello Bob,
I do not mean to be critical but you have some facts mixed up. =


Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh. 700 lb of lead a=
cid is about 1/4 of a gallon.

Relative to your Civic with a cord, I have some issues with what you have d=
one. Don't get me wrong, I like doing EV conversions but you don't seem to =
understand some key facts. For example, I do not believe the conversion sho=
uld exceed the OEM's GVW limits. Curb weight is empty car with full fuel an=
d liquids. GVW is all options, all people, and all luggage. Did you weigh t=
he vehicle and parts? Curb is supposed to be 2310 lbs for 1995 DX Sedan and=
GVW is 3264 lbs. You state that after removing ICE parts and adding the el=
ectric parts plus batteries you are at 3300 lbs and compare that to GVW. Th=
at is not correct, to get to the new GVW you also need to add people and pa=
ssenger weight. If the vehicle remains a 5 passenger than you must add 750 =
lbs more plus luggage. Now there is a little help you can get if you base y=
our GVW on the highest weight 95 Civic which is the EX sedan which has a GV=
W of 3600 lbs. This means if you limit the vehicle to 2 passengers with no =
luggage you are at max Civic GVW.Your conclusion about exceeding GVW becaus=
e of wiggle room is a poor way to view this. The OEM's, particularly Honda,=
does not add anything extra to their vehicles they don't need to. Extra on=
ly adds more cost and weight and hurts fuel economy. Just be aware that you=
are beyond what the vehicle was designed to handle, particularly braking p=
erformance and handling performance (too much weight at the extreme ends of=
the vehicle), not to mention tires.I also do not believe flooded lead acid=
batteries belong in a road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not off=
er any advantage except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cyc=
le basis) and require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.I sa=
w your pictures and believe with a little better understanding, your wiring=
could be cleaned up and made to be high voltage safe.Again, what you have =
done is great but it is not the way a serious conversion should be done.Reg=
ards, Richard
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=3DEML_WL_ GreaterG=
ood

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Marks wrote:
> > Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh. 700 lb of
> > lead acid is about 1/4 of a gallon.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh boy this is getting fun. My biggest concern is people need to be =

aware of the facts and alternatives as they build their EV conversions. =

These facts are not readily available to people. I am going to bring my 36 =

years of automotive experience to help create more understanding about the =

options you have as you plan your EV conversion and the consequences as a =

result of your decisions. You are right, I can't do anything about the way =

people do their conversions and 90% of the examples out there on the =

Internet are potentially dangerous. My facts? Read through the FMVSS =

safety standards and read SAE's standards. These are the same standards =

that result in the great and safe cars you drive today and they are the bes=
t =

the automotive world can produce. Unfortunately, almost all burn something =

to move.
My mission is to improve the knowledge about the decisions you make as =

you plan and build your conversion. I know that my "opinions" are based on =

knowledge very few have because very few of us have spent the time I have i=
n =

designing, testing and developing production cars for the real world =

including the EV1 and OEM conversion vehicles. I am building a Cavalier =

conversion and my costs are not unlike what others have spent on their =

conversions. My guide to help and increase people's understand will be =

available soon. I am not about perfection; I am about understanding the =

consequences of what you do.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Richard Acuti" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum



Richard, I don't mean to be critical but you seem confused about what =

constitues a "fact" and what constitutes an "opinion". In your entire post =

Item #13 and the definition of GVW limits appear to be the only facts, whil=
e =

everything else you state is an opinion.

1. If you remain within limits minus people then you can remain within the =

limits if you do not take on passengers that put you over the limit. Who =

cares how many seating positions are actually in the vehicle. You can fit 2=
0 =

people into an elevator, but that doesn't mean you actually do it.

2. It is YOUR opinion that floodies do not belong in a car. Let the =

application determine the choice of storage medium.

3. What exactly defines a "serious" EV conversion? I'm serious about mine. =

Your criteria is arbitrary, determined soley by you.

4. SUV's often come with warning labels on the visor advising the owner tha=
t =

"this vehicle handles differently than passenger cars and other small =

trucks". Yes, by approaching/exceeding the GVWR you have altered the =

vehicle's handling and stopping characteristics but if you compensate with =

mechanical/structural upgrades and altered driving habits, there is nothing =

dangerous, un-serious, jerry-rigged or ghetto about it. True, you wouldn't =

just hand the key to any newbie and say "drive it like a normal Honda" but =

as long as you educate the driver and upgrade the car, it's perfectly =

legitimate. Hell, I see ICE jalopies on the road that are WAY more dangerou=
s =

than most of the home conversions I've seen. Leaks, faulty brakes, cracked =

windshields, torn seatbelts, etc.

5. Extra weight hurts fuel economy. Depends. In an EV, the extra weight =

usually stores energy, it's not "dead" weight so your premise is wrong. =

True, there is a "point of diminishing returns" where you become nothing bu=
t =

a giant rolling battery that is impractical to drive.

6. "all kinds of preventative maintenance" is again, your opinion. I check =

my water levels about less often than people change their oil. Exotic =

chemistry batteries also require maintenance, the difference is a BMS =

automates that maintenance so that it's transparent to you. You pay either =

in time spent doing the maintenance or a machine that does it for you. It's =

not your place to decide for others.

About the only opinion you've stated that I agree with is that clean wiring =

makes a conversion safer. The impression I take away from your post is that =

most of us shouldn't be driving our conversions and that REAL EV conversion=
s =

are only for well-paid, anal retentive engineers with very deep pockets who =

can afford light, exotic chemistry batteries. As Lee says, "perfection is =

the enemy of good". If we all followed your frame of mind, most of us would =

be sitting on the edge of our beds thinking "golly gee I wish I could build =

a gas-free car but why bother since I can't build it perfectly?" instead of =

actually doing it and making an impact. That, is MY opinion.

As a historical footnote, General George Brinton McClellan was fired by =

Lincoln on November 9th 1962 because he was an elitist engineer who was so =

hung up on building the perfect battle plan that he hardly ever engaged his =

troops in battle. And that my friend, is fact.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/macbio.htm
___________________________________
Message: 28
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:20:42 -0400
From: "Richard Marks"
Subject: Message: 28
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 11:20:42 -0400
From: "Richard Marks"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; =

charset=3D"iso-8859-1";reply-type=3Doriginal

Hello Bob,
I do not mean to be critical but you have some facts mixed up.

Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh. 700 lb of lead =

acid is about 1/4 of a gallon.

Relative to your Civic with a cord, I have some issues with what you have =

done. Don't get me wrong, I like doing EV conversions but you don't seem to =

understand some key facts. For example, I do not believe the conversion =

should exceed the OEM's GVW limits. Curb weight is empty car with full fuel =

and liquids. GVW is all options, all people, and all luggage. Did you weigh =

the vehicle and parts? Curb is supposed to be 2310 lbs for 1995 DX Sedan an=
d =

GVW is 3264 lbs. You state that after removing ICE parts and adding the =

electric parts plus batteries you are at 3300 lbs and compare that to GVW. =

That is not correct, to get to the new GVW you also need to add people and =

passenger weight. If the vehicle remains a 5 passenger than you must add 75=
0 =

lbs more plus luggage. Now there is a little help you can get if you base =

your GVW on the highest weight 95 Civic which is the EX sedan which has a =

GVW of 3600 lbs. This means if you limit the vehicle to 2 passengers with n=
o =

luggage you are at max Civic GVW.Your conclusion about exceeding GVW becaus=
e =

of wiggle room is a poor way to view this. The OEM's, particularly Honda, =

does not add anything extra to their vehicles they don't need to. Extra onl=
y =

adds more cost and weight and hurts fuel economy. Just be aware that you ar=
e =

beyond what the vehicle was designed to handle, particularly braking =

performance and handling performance (too much weight at the extreme ends o=
f =

the vehicle), not to mention tires.I also do not believe flooded lead acid =

batteries belong in a road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offe=
r =

any advantage except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle =

basis) and require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.I saw =

your pictures and believe with a little better understanding, your wiring =

could be cleaned up and made to be high voltage safe.Again, what you have =

done is great but it is not the way a serious conversion should be =

done.Regards, Richard
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You have discovered the world of liars, damn liars, and battery engineers. 
PbA batteries do not meet any of SAE's or FMVSS requirements for electric 
vehicles in crash situations. They gas hydrogen and oxygen which can 
explode, so you can't charge them anywhere but outside. They fume sulfuric 
acid which can cause numerous corrosion problems with surrounding materials. 
You can not put them into a sealed container because you have to let the 
hydrogen out. If you put them in the front end or rear end of a car and hit 
something, they can explode and spray sulfuric acid everywhere. If you put 
them inside the passenger compartment the problem only gets worse. If you 
think the sulfuric acid is not dangerous, just read the MSDS from any of the 
flooded lead acid battery manufacturers. Sulfuric acid can really burn you 
badly.
My experience with people with flooded PbA batteries is nothing short of a 
nightmare. You are correct in that you need a good BMS and keep the 
batteries balanced. Have you got one? Once they start to drift out of 
balance, you have a problem on your hands as you kill all of your batteries. 
BMS is important in all battery packs, but for some reason people who go 
with flooded PbA's because they are cheap are usually the last to even think 
about a BMS. Also, flooded PbA batteries drop voltage much quicker with 
discharge than most sealed batteries. And what about watering batteries? 
The automotive world got away from that 40 years ago, shouldn't you, too. 
The average guy who we want to drive EV's should not have to do this. If 
you don't believe me, visit a Master Planned retirement community and go to 
the local golf cart service guy. He is also changing out batteries all the 
time because they were not filled properly.
Please forward me your documentation that life cycle cost is better with 
flooded PbA batteries. Maybe you should visit your local golf course and 
talk to the guy who manages the fleet. Let's see your data.
Thanks for your challenge! We will both get smarter
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


> If you are going to correct someone's "Facts" then you should be sure of
> your own "Facts"
> You are welcome to your "Beliefs", but the fact is that Flooded Lead Acid
> batteries are the cheapest battery on LIFE CYCLE basis as well as inital
> costs.
>
> This has been documented on numerous occasions.
>
> Personally I don't see a problem with using them. There have been a few
> occasions when they've been problem, but simple precautions can avoid
> these problems.
>
> Granted they require some maintenance, but you can add on accessories that
> make this trivial. Battery watering systems, catalytic caps, BMS, etc,
> can all be used and they can reduce maintenance and maybe extend life.
>
> A BMS is practically mandatory if you DON'T use Flooded PBAs. Though not
> required, it offers similar advantages to flooded PBAs. If you have a
> BMS, you can do away with routinely checking electrolyte levels. Add a
> watering system and maintenance no becomes a 5 minute "chore" every other
> month or so.
>
> Even with a watering system and a BMS, flooded PBAs will come out cheaper
> life cycle AND initially.
>
>> I also do not believe flooded lead acid batteries belong in a
>> road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offer any advantage
>> except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle basis) and
>> require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Richard (Marks),

I do not claim to be an EV or automotive expert, but I did want to 
comment on one of your responses to Bob Bath, just to get some 
discussion and come to agreement on one of the conversion factors 
mentioned. I have an EV conversion and years of experience driving it 
in daily use.

Bob said in his post (item #13) 700 lbs of lead-acid is about equivalent 
to one gallon of gasoline [energy], but you countered that it is 1/4 
gallon. Well, I have a 1350 lb pack (120V), and I get more than that in 
real experience. My 4500 lb 1985 4WD S-10 has a real daily driver range 
of 35 miles on a charge (with 75% DOD) at normal speeds, and the 
original 4 cylinder version probably averaged about 18 mpg, so I would 
agree that it is roughly what Bob said, 700 lbs = 1 gallon (in other 
words, I have the range equivalent of about 2 gallons of gasoline in the 
original vehicle). It may be even better since the ICE version weighed 
less. Maybe you did not account for the fact that ICE is a lot less 
efficient with the available kWhs or BTUs than an EV is. Comments? I 
just want to get some agreement on one of the "rules of thumb" that we 
have been using when explaining EVs to potential candidates for an EV.

I agree with you about the safety and reliability issues, some 
converters do not pay enough attention to this, I have seen several EVs 
recently with NO battery retention or HV exposure protection from 
wandering fingers while showing the cars to non-EVers....

One of my main safety concerns with my EV is the braking performance, I 
will be upgrading my entire braking system this summer. With a pickup 
truck, it is much easier to upgrade the suspension and brakes to support 
more weight than it is with a unibody sedan or coupe, but the GVWR MUST 
be observed or at least recognized and appropriate upgrades performed 
for safety of the driver, passengers, and everyone else on the road! 
Besides brakes, the suspension and tires must be appropriately rated for 
the increased mass and possible weight re-distribution.


Regards,

Steve Wilson
Hyde Park, NY



> Richard Marks wrote:
> > Hello Bob,
> > I do not mean to be critical but you have some facts mixed up.
> > Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh. 700 lb of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

First of all energy is energy. The fact that a gasoline car wastes 80% of 
it is exactly the point of why EV's make so much sense. But the fact is 
still 700lbs of lead acid batteries is only a quart of gas from an energy 
standpoint. The fact that an EV can do so much more with so much less is 
the major point. But energy is energy and you can't mess with it.
Please show me 20,000 mile EV's running on golf cart batteries. I need 
understand the facts behind this.

Please share with us your example of
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum




> > Richard Marks wrote:
> >> Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh. 700 lb of
> >> lead acid is about 1/4 of a gallon.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> First of all energy is energy. The fact that a gasoline car wastes 80% of
> it is exactly the point of why EV's make so much sense. But the fact is
> still 700lbs of lead acid batteries is only a quart of gas from an energy
> standpoint.

He didn't express himself well, and you are missing the point.

The point is, it requires approx 700 lbs of lead acid batteries to propell
a conversion the same distance as it previously went on one gallon of
gasoline.

This is a rough approximations and depends on components chosen, etc. For
some conversions it's closer to 600 lbs, some it's closer to 800 lbs.

Generally for the ones who are closer to 600 lbs, it's because they have
made modifications during/after conversion that would have also improved
gas mileage. I.e. switching to LRR tires and using low friction
lubricants in the tranny/diff.


Most folks, who take care of their batteries, get 5-6 years out of a set
of 6V GC batteries. That's only 4,000 miles per year to get 20,000 miles.
I think Lee Hart once got 10 years out of a set, but he is much more
meticulous about maintenance than I am. I'm lazy.

The pack of 8V GC batteries in my truck lasted well over 10,000 miles. 
The previous owner had mistreated them, they were so low on water when I
bought it, that the plates were exposed, he admitted to driving it on at
least two occasions to the point where it wouldn't move anymore. The
batteries were two years old when I bought it and I drove it over 7,000
miles for the next two years.
I'll let you know, in about 5 years, how well my new set of 6V GC
batteries last.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Almost every ICE out there has a flooded lead acid battery under the hood.
And a tank of high explosives underneath it. Cars in general just aren't
very safe. But we seem to accept that.

And yes, they fume hydrogen, explode, leak acid, etc....

For PV systems at least, flooded lead acid, with all their problems (I
personally hate using them) they are still the cheapest option for energy
storage there, IF you regularly maintain them. If you go for sealed
batteries, they cost more, and don't take as well to deep cycling... but
they don't require looking at them every two months.

Z

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Richard Marks <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > You have discovered the world of liars, damn liars, and battery engineers.
> > PbA batteries do not meet any of SAE's or FMVSS requirements for electric
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Marks wrote:
> > The fact that a gasoline car wastes 80% of it is exactly the point of
> > why EVs make so much sense. But the fact is still 700lbs of lead acid
> > batteries is only a quart of gas from an energy standpoint.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 16:28:17 -0400, "Richard Marks" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >My experience with people with flooded PbA batteries is nothing short of a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Personally, I have much more time than money to blow on batteries so
floodeds
it is for me. That's what makes choice so wonderful, isn't it?


According to Transport Canada, an electric vehicle must not leak any
electrolyte even when in a rollover or 'reasonable' crash. You could
make flooded batteries pass this, but you would need to think about
the venting/watering system very carefully. There are other regulations
in terms of venting, flammable gas buildup, etc. Nothing major but not
quite so trivial as tossing in some golf cart batteries and getting on the
road.

I would imagine that the US has similar regulations? Or are states alone
given charge of this?

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter is correct - flooded lead-acid batteries are currently the battery
that is most practical in a road-worthy vehicle. Why would you or anyone
else think that they don't belong there?

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <xx[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


> If you are going to correct someone's "Facts" then you should be sure of
> your own "Facts"
> You are welcome to your "Beliefs", but the fact is that Flooded Lead Acid
> batteries are the cheapest battery on LIFE CYCLE basis as well as inital
> costs.
>
> This has been documented on numerous occasions.
>
> Personally I don't see a problem with using them. There have been a few
> occasions when they've been problem, but simple precautions can avoid
> these problems.
>
> Granted they require some maintenance, but you can add on accessories that
> make this trivial. Battery watering systems, catalytic caps, BMS, etc,
> can all be used and they can reduce maintenance and maybe extend life.
>
> A BMS is practically mandatory if you DON'T use Flooded PBAs. Though not
> required, it offers similar advantages to flooded PBAs. If you have a
> BMS, you can do away with routinely checking electrolyte levels. Add a
> watering system and maintenance no becomes a 5 minute "chore" every other
> month or so.
>
> Even with a watering system and a BMS, flooded PBAs will come out cheaper
> life cycle AND initially.
>
>> I also do not believe flooded lead acid batteries belong in a
>> road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offer any advantage
>> except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle basis) and
>> require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Umm, Neon...Perhaps you should price batteries again. Unless you've found
a source recently for sub $50 batteries.
I can't find them locally for under $100. Since I wanted 20 of them, the
local GC store offered me a deal, $105 ea, plus tax

I've seen people advertising them on Craig's List for $145

> With an initial price in the sub-$50 range and a residual
> value of from $5 to $10 dollars, depending on where one sells them, the


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dale Ulan wrote:
> > According to Transport Canada, an electric vehicle must not leak any
> > electrolyte even when in a rollover or 'reasonable' crash.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 13:17:59 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Umm, Neon...Perhaps you should price batteries again. Unless you've found
> >a source recently for sub $50 batteries.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Dale Ulan" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Personally, I have much more time than money to blow on batteries so
> >floodeds
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > >According to Transport Canada, an electric vehicle must not leak any
> > >electrolyte even when in a rollover or 'reasonable' crash.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Surprised ya'll got electrical current down yer way



> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:36:39 -0600, "Dale Ulan" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:29:30 -0700, "Marty Mercer" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >Surprised ya'll got electrical current down yer way
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Richard Marks wrote:
> > > Item #13 - one gallon of gas is 125,000 BTU's or 36.4 kWh.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> > 1. If you remain within limits minus people then you can
> > remain within the limits if you do not take on passengers
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also note that the GVWR is not a rigid hard-and-fast number, above which 
things suddenly break. It's a guideline. Adding weight to any vehicle 
increases the wear and strain on the parts, which lowers safety and the 
service life of the vehicle. The builder has to decide what he considers 
"good enough".


As of three or so years ago, GVWR is, in fact, a rigid hard-and-fast
number according to the Canadian equivalent of the US FMVSS - Transport
Canada. A vehicle upfitter or owner cannot modify the GVWR of the
vehicle, and the regulations require sufficient difference between
curb and rated weight to accomodate the equipped passenger load -
if you have a five-seat car, it has to accommodate the appropriate
standard luggage and passenger load as per the SAE specifications.

If you get the vehicle inspected for insurance, they want to know if
it passes the weight test. If you just convert it after having it run
and inspected on an ancient rotted algae fuel, and not get it
reinspected, your insurance is void.

That is why I am waiting until I can afford lithium. I looked at lead
and it is difficult to manage a small-car conversion while being below
GVWR.

There are also regulations with regards to electolyte leakage, battery
retention, venting, gassing - they have a whole section on electric
vehicle performance.

Dale Ulan
Alberta, Canada

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 27 May 2008 at 14:07, Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> > If you remain within limits minus people then you can remain within the
> > limits if you do not take on passengers that put you over the limit. Who cares
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> the GVWR is not a rigid hard-and-fast number, above which things 
>> suddenly break. It's a guideline.



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it can or should be
> > ignored. While the vehicle may not suddenly break above GVWR, the
> > GVWR is NOT just a guideline. It is a regulatory limit imposed by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > It's not as bad as all that; the requirement regarding electrolyte
> > leakage is <5 litres (for the metric challenged, that is on the order
> > of 1.5 US gallons, give or take) outside of the passenger compartment
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm currently teaching a 2-credit course Electric Car Conversion course.

http://www.alaska.edu/uaf/coursefinder/search_results.xml?term=200802&campus=UAF-University+of+Alaska+Fairbanks&department=ES-+Engineering+Science&crn=&number=&level=Any&title=&time=Any&day=Any&instructor=&submit=Find

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Jason Solivais <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > Helllo,
> > I am new to this discussion list. I recieved 98 emails today-- WOW. It is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was pricing T105s a month or so ago at my local Battery Warehouse and 
they were up around $140 each! So I went and looked at Sams a few weeks 
later. The GC-2 battery was $63 or so as I recall. I think the GC2 may 
be somewhat lower capacity, but not half.

- SteveS



> Neon John wrote:
> > for the $47 6 volt golf cart batteries. Now I didn't interrogate the manager
> > or anything like that to make sure the sign was correct and accurate but at
> > Sam's they usually are. There is the $8 core charge that they only mention in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello,
Understand precisely what is going on. But you are mixing up battery 
weight, conversion vehicle choice, and conversion quality to form some 
relationship. That relationship is not based only on energy. You need a 
better term than saying 700 lbs of batteries is equal to a gallon of gas. I 
am doing a conversion and my 800lbs of batteries is getting me about 50 
miles so it is equivalent to about 2 gallons of gas? What does that really 
say? Beats me? I prefer to tell people I am getting 50 miles on an 
energy equivalent of a quart of gas, or if you prefer how about on an energy 
equivalent basis, I getting 200 mpg! That puts everything on a logical 
basis.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


>> First of all energy is energy. The fact that a gasoline car wastes 80% 
>> of
>> it is exactly the point of why EV's make so much sense. But the fact is
>> still 700lbs of lead acid batteries is only a quart of gas from an energy
>> standpoint.
>
> He didn't express himself well, and you are missing the point.
>
> The point is, it requires approx 700 lbs of lead acid batteries to propell
> a conversion the same distance as it previously went on one gallon of
> gasoline.
>
> This is a rough approximations and depends on components chosen, etc. For
> some conversions it's closer to 600 lbs, some it's closer to 800 lbs.
>
> Generally for the ones who are closer to 600 lbs, it's because they have
> made modifications during/after conversion that would have also improved
> gas mileage. I.e. switching to LRR tires and using low friction
> lubricants in the tranny/diff.
>
>
> Most folks, who take care of their batteries, get 5-6 years out of a set
> of 6V GC batteries. That's only 4,000 miles per year to get 20,000 miles.
> I think Lee Hart once got 10 years out of a set, but he is much more
> meticulous about maintenance than I am. I'm lazy.
>
> The pack of 8V GC batteries in my truck lasted well over 10,000 miles.
> The previous owner had mistreated them, they were so low on water when I
> bought it, that the plates were exposed, he admitted to driving it on at
> least two occasions to the point where it wouldn't move anymore. The
> batteries were two years old when I bought it and I drove it over 7,000
> miles for the next two years.
> I'll let you know, in about 5 years, how well my new set of 6V GC
> batteries last.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Boy, oh boy. I really did not mean to start angry discussions. My purpose 
is to make people who are doing conversions to understand that there are 
consequences with every decision they make. Without knowledge we are not 
living to our full potential. Deny or distort reality and we are just 
showing our ignorance. I never said I know everything, but I come with a 
different point of view, that I believe can be helpful in building safer and 
more reliable EV conversions. If you know everything, you have no need to 
learn more. We all can learn, but I am beginning to wonder about this group 
and whether there are people interested in learning more through an OEM-like 
perspective..
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


> Almost every ICE out there has a flooded lead acid battery under the hood 
> (NOT SINCE 1970'S; THEY ARE ALL SEALED.)
> And a tank of high explosives underneath it. Cars in general just aren't
> very safe. But we seem to accept that. YOU NEED TO DEFINE SAFE. THEY 
> ALL PASS FMVSS SAFETY TEST STANDARDS; HOW MANY OF THE CONVERSIONS BEING 
> DONE WILL DO THIS? AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT OPENING THE HOOD OF A 
> CONVERSION AND SEEING ALL KINDS OF HIGH VOLTAGE CONNECTIONS WITH NO 
> INSULATED COVERS, JUST AS ONE EXAMPLE.
>
> And yes, they fume hydrogen, explode, leak acid, etc....
>
> For PV systems at least, flooded lead acid, with all their problems (I
> personally hate using them) they are still the cheapest option for energy
> storage there, IF you regularly maintain them. If you go for sealed
> batteries, they cost more, and don't take as well to deep cycling... but
> they don't require looking at them every two months. LIFE CYCLE IS FAR 
> MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT; YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE CYCLES AND DOD YOU 
> ARE COMPARING, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTROL ALGORITHM TO MAINTAIN 
> THE BATTERIES SOC. AND IF YOUR BATTERIES HEAT UP UNEQUALLY, THE HOTTER 
> FLOODED BATTERIES NEED MORE WATER IN THEM MORE FREQUENTLY. I THOUGHT THE 
> ADVANTAGE OF EV'S WAS THAT LACK OF NEEDING MAINTENANCE?
>
> Z
>
> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Richard Marks <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> >> You have discovered the world of liars, damn liars, and battery
> >> engineers.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We are confusing issues. See my earlier email. My conversion gets 50 miles 
out of 800 lbs of batteries which is equivalent in your logic to 2 gallons 
of gas. We should stick with the physics and not let the type of vehicle or 
the quality of the conversion get all mixed together. My 800 lbs is about a 
quart of gas and I go 50 miles, so in my conversion I am getting 200 mpg 
energy equivalent. Your example, says 25 miles on 700lb of batteries which 
I said is less than a quart of gas, suggests his conversion is getting 100 
mpg energy equivalent. Now you easily see that one conversion is better and 
more efficient that the other, which is what it is all about.
Actually you should not be using weight of the batteries, you should be 
looking at the stored energy (kWh) at the appropriate discharge rate, like 
C/1 or a one hour discharge capacity. Now we are talking apples to applies.
But if you want to confuse everyone, go right ahead.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum




> > Richard Marks wrote:
> >> The fact that a gasoline car wastes 80% of it is exactly the point of
> >> why EVs make so much sense. But the fact is still 700lbs of lead acid
> >> batteries is only a quart of gas from an energy standpoint.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are missing the point. I never said you can't use them, that is your 
choice. My point is to understand that there are better, safer, more 
reliable choices out there that will meet all current safety standards both 
in SAE and in FMVSS and provide a much more reliable system for the average 
user. If you want a science-fair project vehicle, go help yourself.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum


> Peter is correct - flooded lead-acid batteries are currently the battery
> that is most practical in a road-worthy vehicle. Why would you or anyone
> else think that they don't belong there?
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
>
>
>> If you are going to correct someone's "Facts" then you should be sure of
>> your own "Facts"
>> You are welcome to your "Beliefs", but the fact is that Flooded Lead Acid
>> batteries are the cheapest battery on LIFE CYCLE basis as well as inital
>> costs.
>>
>> This has been documented on numerous occasions.
>>
>> Personally I don't see a problem with using them. There have been a few
>> occasions when they've been problem, but simple precautions can avoid
>> these problems.
>>
>> Granted they require some maintenance, but you can add on accessories 
>> that
>> make this trivial. Battery watering systems, catalytic caps, BMS, etc,
>> can all be used and they can reduce maintenance and maybe extend life.
>>
>> A BMS is practically mandatory if you DON'T use Flooded PBAs. Though not
>> required, it offers similar advantages to flooded PBAs. If you have a
>> BMS, you can do away with routinely checking electrolyte levels. Add a
>> watering system and maintenance no becomes a 5 minute "chore" every other
>> month or so.
>>
>> Even with a watering system and a BMS, flooded PBAs will come out cheaper
>> life cycle AND initially.
>>
>>> I also do not believe flooded lead acid batteries belong in a
>>> road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offer any advantage
>>> except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle basis) and
>>> require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date: 5/27/2008
> 1:25 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To provide education is my mission.
Go read the FMVSS safety standards. In particular 301 Fuel system 
integrity and 305 EV electrolyte spillage. 301 is concern about fuel 
leakage, not a single battery leakage. (Car batteries are sealed batteries 
and can take a lot of abuse in a crash but they don't start fires.) 305 is 
about EV's and you are allowed 5 liters of electrolyte after the test is 
over and the vehicle has gone through its 30 minute rollover procedure. The 
issue is to protect occupants in a crash from electrolyte exposure, lack of 
battery retention and any high voltage leakage to the frame of the vehicle.
If these don't make sense, I don't know what to tell you.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum




> > Dale Ulan wrote:
> >> According to Transport Canada, an electric vehicle must not leak any
> >> electrolyte even when in a rollover or 'reasonable' crash.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Define "better"?

Why do you say Flooded PbA is unreliable?
They might not have been reliable 100 years ago (I have no idea if they
were or not) but for the last few decades they have proven to be
incredibly reliable. Provided that you don't murder them, but anyone who
can murder flooded batteries would be able to easily destroy more
expensive batteries.


> You are missing the point. I never said you can't use them, that is your
> choice. My point is to understand that there are better, safer, more
> reliable choices out there that will meet all current safety standards
> both
> in SAE and in FMVSS and provide a much more reliable system for the
> average
> user. If you want a science-fair project vehicle, go help yourself.
> Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "joe" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
>
>
>> Peter is correct - flooded lead-acid batteries are currently the battery
>> that is most practical in a road-worthy vehicle. Why would you or anyone
>> else think that they don't belong there?
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [email protected]
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
>>
>>
>>> If you are going to correct someone's "Facts" then you should be sure
>>> of
>>> your own "Facts"
>>> You are welcome to your "Beliefs", but the fact is that Flooded Lead
>>> Acid
>>> batteries are the cheapest battery on LIFE CYCLE basis as well as
>>> inital
>>> costs.
>>>
>>> This has been documented on numerous occasions.
>>>
>>> Personally I don't see a problem with using them. There have been a
>>> few
>>> occasions when they've been problem, but simple precautions can avoid
>>> these problems.
>>>
>>> Granted they require some maintenance, but you can add on accessories
>>> that
>>> make this trivial. Battery watering systems, catalytic caps, BMS, etc,
>>> can all be used and they can reduce maintenance and maybe extend life.
>>>
>>> A BMS is practically mandatory if you DON'T use Flooded PBAs. Though
>>> not
>>> required, it offers similar advantages to flooded PBAs. If you have a
>>> BMS, you can do away with routinely checking electrolyte levels. Add a
>>> watering system and maintenance no becomes a 5 minute "chore" every
>>> other
>>> month or so.
>>>
>>> Even with a watering system and a BMS, flooded PBAs will come out
>>> cheaper
>>> life cycle AND initially.
>>>
>>>> I also do not believe flooded lead acid batteries belong in a
>>>> road-worthy street electric vehicle. They do not offer any advantage
>>>> except initial price (but are more expensive on a life cycle basis)
>>>> and
>>>> require all kinds of preventative and maintenance issues.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1469 - Release Date:
>> 5/27/2008
>> 1:25 PM
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
> [on flooded lead-acid batteries] My point is to understand that there
> are better, safer, more reliable choices out there that will meet all
> current safety standards both in SAE and in FMVSS and provide a much
> more reliable system for the average user.

What would you suggest?

Nimh batteries are unobtainable, thanks to Chevron. They bought the patent rights and won't sell them.

Lithium batteries are extremely expensive, highly combustible, and life is unknown.

That leaves us with lead-acid. There are three basic types; floodeds, gels, and AGMs. We only need to consider deep-cycle ones; SLI (Starting Lighting Ignition) and Marine are obviously unsuitable.

Floodeds are the cheapest, but need maintenance (check water and add as needed every few months, similar to an oil change for an ICE but easier and less expensive). High quality floodeds have good life (600-2000 cycles) and reasonable range, but their peak energy capacity is low.

AGMs are sealed and can deliver high peak energy. However, their life is shorter (200-600 cycles) and they are 2-3 times more expensive.

Gels are also sealed, and have life similar to floodeds, but their peak energy is limited (like floodeds). They are also 2-3 times more expensive.

>From this, perhaps you can see why 90% of the EVs on the road use lead-acid batteries, and why most of them are flooded.

PS: Essentially all normal ICE vehicles use floodeds. You called them "sealed", but they are more properly termed "maintenance free". The electrolyte is still a free liquid (crack the case, and it all pours out). They still have vent caps (but they have been glued on so you *can't* add water). They produce and vent hydrogen gas during charging.

These floodeds are obviously "safe enough" to meet SAE and FMVSS standards. What difference do you see between them and flooded EV batteries?


--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:50:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Lee Hart


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
> >> [on flooded lead-acid batteries] My point is to understand that there
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Nimh batteries are unobtainable, thanks to Chevron. They bought the patent rights and won't sell them.
> 
And it looks like they are trying to lock down liFePo4 also. :-(
> Lithium batteries are extremely expensive, highly combustible, and life is unknown.
> 
Maybe we need to start spliting out the lithium ions
lithium cobalt oxide are highly combustible with a well known life
cycle.
Lithium-Magenese are cheaper, not highly combustable, but less
energy dense and very temperature sensitive (high temp, chargeing above
90 degrees, damages them)
LiFePo4 is life unknown and extremely expensive but not combustible.
The LiFePo4 technology was created to come up with a cheaper and
more powerful solution to the LiCo cells. They succeeded. The prices are
artificially high right now based more on capacity than cost of
materials and manufacturing. Which is fine, Starting a major production
company costs big bucks, but they have the potential (no pun intended)
for being a lot cheaper.
> That leaves us with lead-acid. There are three basic types; floodeds, gels, and AGMs. We only need to consider deep-cycle ones; SLI (Starting Lighting Ignition) and Marine are obviously unsuitable.
>
> Floodeds are the cheapest, but need maintenance (check water and add as needed every few months, similar to an oil change for an ICE but easier and less expensive). High quality floodeds have good life (600-2000 cycles) and reasonable range, but their peak energy capacity is low.
>
> AGMs are sealed and can deliver high peak energy. However, their life is shorter (200-600 cycles) and they are 2-3 times more expensive.
>
> Gels are also sealed, and have life similar to floodeds, but their peak energy is limited (like floodeds). They are also 2-3 times more expensive.
> 
I just got a quote on Deka Dominators and they look like they have
sneaked past the hype surrounding spiral wound.(which wastes 15% of the
space) I got a better price quoted for them at 72ah/48.4ah (20hour/1hr)
vs the excide orbitals @ (50ah/24ah)
> >From this, perhaps you can see why 90% of the EVs on the road use lead-acid batteries, and why most of them are flooded.
> 

Comodity vs specialty is the real issue, lead acid batteries are
commodity, so are liCo. My guess is that is why they are in our cars for
the former and why liCo is in the Tesla.

We have to find a way to commoditize lifepo4 cells.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:50:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Lee Hart
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, 29 May 2008 09:41:27 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]> wrote:


>Indeed. I have several EVs with these batteries and I really don't
>want to go back to lead.
>A friend of mine recently had his first battery module changed after
>about 65,000 miles on the original pack, in his Citroen van. I'm
>catching up at about 50k on a second pack.
>
>But it appears that an "exclusivity deal" between PSA group and Saft
>prevents these from getting into EV use, these days.

SAFT isn't the only game in town. Thanks to Marty Mercer for this link

http://www.sbsbattery.com/subpage_index.php?_subp_=152

There's more battery literature on that site than I could read in a week.
After I figure out which version NiCad I want, I'll be requesting a quote.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I love cats ... they taste just like chicken.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Right, and this is right where YOU miss the point. These better, safer, mor=
e reliable choices come at a cost that a lot of people can't afford. Have y=
ou read any of Darin's posts about Project Forkenswift? He built his EV on =
a beer budget and donations. Now why do you suppose that is? Fuel prices ar=
e untenable for a lot of people NOW. You're basically advocating that those=
who can't afford Li-type batteries just sit on the sidelines and suffer wh=
en there's a perfectly safe, affordable solution available right now.

Yes, yes, I get it: Li-type batteries are more cost effective over the long=
run IF you get the max life out of them but lead is affordable in the shor=
t term. I'm not even sure you're right about long-term cost effectiveness b=
ecause Roland gets 10 YEARS of life and tens of thousands of miles out of h=
is lead batteries. He recoups his costs many times over.

You have yet to present any of your information as fact. You haven't provid=
ed a single weblink or resource. You just keep pointing to your 35 years of=
OEM automobile experience which is impressive and COULD be useful, but you=
r problem is you have what I call the "burden of knowlege". The auto indust=
ry has saddled you with a very narrow view of what an automobile "should be=
" so you are unable to execute a paradigm shift and build what "could be".

In the military we have a saying: "Adapt and overcome." Most of us adapt ou=
r cars to lead-acid to overcome the cash shortage for advanced batteries be=
cause we have to do SOMETHING. For all his faults, Rumsfeld said it right w=
hen he said "We go to war with the weapons we have, not the weapons we WISH=
we had." So, those of us who can't afford a 10k Li-pack and BMS go to war=
with lead-acid and we make our cars as safe as we can. If that's a "scienc=
e fair project" then so be it. Your opinion is no concern of mine so long a=
s I'm going 3 months at a time between gas purchases like I am now and I'm =
safe. My car's been an EV since '92.

If someone made a sealed, gel 6 or 8 volt battery with the same capacity as=
my wet-cells then I'd buy it and put regulators on or look into a BMS for =
lead. I don't buy gel or AGM 12 volt batteries because they DON'T FIT MY AP=
PLICATION. Have you heard me yet when I refer to "application"? My applica=
tion requires greater capacity than those advanced 12 volt batteries can pr=
ovide, yet I still require highway speeds sometimes so I picked the best, s=
afest, affordable battery that met my need: The wet 8 volt battery. Using a=
sealed 12 volt battery pack would allow me to go very fast for very short =
distances. For some people's application and BUDGET, a pack of 12 volts is =
perfect. For some, only a huge pack of 6 volts will do because they have to=
go very long distances but at a lower speed than others. Li-type batteries=
are the Grail, they can meet almost any application in the right configura=
tion for those who can AFFORD them.

I sense that you have plenty of valuable knowlege to share, but as long as =
you keep poo-pooing everyone who can't build an advanced production EV to Y=
OUR specifications in their garage, you're going to find a very limited aud=
ience here. Just because we didn't all work for Ford or Toyota doesn't mean=
none of us can build a safe, effective electric vehicle.
________________________________
Message: 28
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:44:24 -0400
From: "Richard Marks" =

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Course Curriculum
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

Message-ID: =

Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"iso-8859-1";reply-typ=
e=3Doriginal =


You are missing the point. I never said you can't use them, that is your ch=
oice. My point is to understand that there are better, safer, more reliable=
choices out there that will meet all current safety standards both in SAE =
and in FMVSS and provide a much more reliable system for the average user. =
If you want a science-fair project vehicle, go help yourself.

Richard
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All this battery technology is old relatively speaking. I could list hundred
of new battery technologies on the verge. Some and most not even really
batteries. Hold tight ya'll. Another 5 years and we'll see a 20 fold
increase in energy storage, and costs will be manageable as well. Let
Chevron buy up the rights to meaningless technologies. Makes me laugh when
they do...... Compared to other available batteries I realize it sucks ass
we can have them now and use them, but its all just a chess match....

We all know the games corporate giants play but they are losing grip in the
world slowly, but surely. The world is growing to big and moving to fast for
old ways of business to sustain. I might be dead by time real change is
noticeable, but its happening. I'm 38, not young, and not old.

If EEStor is what I'm thinking it is, its where we'll start seeing changes.
I'm hoping they aren't as smart as I am though. =)~



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Right, and this is right where YOU miss the point. These better, safer,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> > I'm not even sure
> > you're right about long-term cost effectiveness because
> ...


----------

