# Liquid heater, happy and not so happy



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

So I thought I'd try doing a liquid heater setup. I'm amazed how fast this thing heats up. I figured I'd have to keep it preheated while charging and then maintain the heat while driving but it takes just minutes to get well over 100 degrees coming from the vents.

So what's bad? The pump to circulate the water is way to noisy. I've tried two pumps now and they are both just too noisy. I'm leaning towards the ceramic heater now but I really liked how you can fine tune the heat with this liquid setup, just like it was. It would seem the ceramic setup is more of an on/off even if you had a thermostat it would cycle and it seems you'd notice the temp changes when it did.

Has anybody else finished a water heater setup and found a very quite pump with enough volume?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Has anybody else finished a water heater setup and found a very quite pump with enough volume?


You might look into the heater boost pumps used on a lot of VW, Mercedes Benz, BMW and many other euro cars. They are used to increase heater water flow when at idle and other times when the engine pump flow is directed at cooling the engine.

Im not faamilar enough with domestic amd asian to say where to look on those vehicles.

Jim


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

what pumps have you tried? 

Mine is mounted on the auxilary battery plastic/rubbermaid holder that was OE to the vehicle. I can just barely even hear it running, as the vibration is removed from the mount itself.

Now my vacuum pump is another story...


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

chamilun said:


> what pumps have you tried?
> 
> Mine is mounted on the auxilary battery plastic/rubbermaid holder that was OE to the vehicle. I can just barely even hear it running, as the vibration is removed from the mount itself.
> 
> Now my vacuum pump is another story...


I don't recall the brands but one was a 115v 310 gph with pictures on the box for draining your basement, filling waterbeds, etc. It worked well but was the loudest of the two I've tried. It was the smallest one I could find at my local Ace hardware store. Second I tried a 12v pump I found Tractor Supply that is used to pump pesticides in those trailer sprayers. It was rated for only about 60 gph. It was quieter, but really not by as much as I thought it would be.

My vacuum pump is much quieter than either of these. I also had both of these pumps suspended midair by the tension of the hoses so they really couldn't vibrate the vehicle directly yet and still seems bad. I tried grabbing them and pushing them hard against the frame for tests as well but with no relief on noise.

I'll look again at what pump you used in your thread. I wasn't sure if it was quieter or not but a hummm is what I'm looking for


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

I used a 12V pump made for an R/V. I'ts much smaller than the one that Chamilun used. It makes a slight noise but no more than any other small electric motor such as a windshield washer pump whine.

I picked mine up at my local West Marine store for $40 I think. It can be seen in this picture:











Ben


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Are those diaphram pumps for RV or are there impellers in those too?


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Are those diaphram pumps for RV or are there impellers in those too?


I've been Googling...

Pump and parts catalog. This one claims to be quiet.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-pumps-water/shurflo-pumps.htm
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...pump&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS293US293&sa=N


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> You might look into the heater boost pumps used on a lot of VW, Mercedes Benz, BMW and many other euro cars. They are used to increase heater water flow when at idle and other times when the engine pump flow is directed at cooling the engine.
> 
> Im not faamilar enough with domestic amd asian to say where to look on those vehicles.
> 
> Jim


i have been playing around with one of these at the shop, they flow a lot of water and are dead silent, another plus is they only draw .5 amps at 12v. i would go with one of these as they are designed to take the heat and vibration of an automotive environment. they should be plentifull in the junkyards.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My Audi TT has an electric water pump, it circulates water though the turbo when the engine is shut off. It is quiet, 12v, and designed to circulate hot water. Maybe give that a try?


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

etischer said:


> My Audi TT has an electric water pump, it circulates water though the turbo when the engine is shut off. It is quiet, 12v, and designed to circulate hot water. Maybe give that a try?


that is the exact one i have been testing


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Hey Mill so you already have one of these pumps? Have you tried it out yet to see how the noise level is?


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

yes they are almost completely silent, i have one i use on a rig i made to flush heater cores out, it circulates a cleaning solution, i have to put my hand on the pump to feel for the slight vibration to make sure it is running. although they make a loud screeching noise when run dry lol


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

mill said:


> yes they are almost completely silent, i have one i use on a rig i made to flush heater cores out, it circulates a cleaning solution, i have to put my hand on the pump to feel for the slight vibration to make sure it is running. although they make a loud screeching noise when run dry lol


Do you have a link for this pump or make/model?
Thanks!


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

bblocher said:


> ..........................
> So what's bad? The pump to circulate the water is way to noisy. I've tried two pumps now and they are both just too noisy. I'm leaning towards the ceramic heater now but I really liked how you can fine tune the heat with this liquid setup, just like it was. It would seem the ceramic setup is more of an on/off even if you had a thermostat it would cycle and it seems you'd notice the temp changes when it did.
> 
> Has anybody else finished a water heater setup and found a very quite pump with enough volume?


I got my kit from www.EVAmerica.com and the pump was fairly quiet.
See my experience with a liquid heater here
http://www.saturn.offical.net/?q=node/189


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

The guys at EVAmerica are great. That looks like a perfect setup and 4k watts of heating is no joke  The 1.5k heater I have puts out some decent heat for where I live but I can see this setup being really valuable for anybody living in freezing conditions


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Do you have a link for this pump or make/model?
> Thanks!


no link but i know all audi tt's and A6 allroads with the 2.7l twin turbo have one, some of the non turbo vw/audi v6's have them, most benz cars have one, some jags, if you go to a euro junk yard you are guaranteed to find one and get the connector/wires at the same time,they all work good and are very quiet. the one i have is a vw/audi unit, the part number is 078965561


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks the part# did the trick. Was able to find it easily.
Here is a link from ebay that shows a few of them for sale.

Seems like the junkyard is the best bet though so I can cut the connector to it also.


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

i may be able to help you out with a connector if you cant find one, i have a few laying around. what setup are you actually using for a heater?


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is the heater I installed. It's 1500 watts and was able to bring my vent air from low 50s F to 110F in about 2-5 minutes (I didn't time it but it was very reasonable).

I have a little reservoir that I added for an expansion chamber/over flow but I'm not really impressed with it (too cheap and flimsy).


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

bblocher said:


> Here is the heater I installed. It's 1500 watts and was able to bring my vent air from low 50s F to 110F in about 2-5 minutes (I didn't time it but it was very reasonable).
> 
> I have a little reservoir that I added for an expansion chamber/over flow but I'm not really impressed with it (too cheap and flimsy).


Are you running 120 or 144 DC voltage to the JCWhitney heater box? How long have you run this unit. Seems like a viable system much cheaper than mine. You will have to insulate it I believe because when driven the road wind will pull away an amazing amount of heat.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

atzi said:


> Are you running 120 or 144 DC voltage to the JCWhitney heater box? How long have you run this unit. Seems like a viable system much cheaper than mine. You will have to insulate it I believe because when driven the road wind will pull away an amazing amount of heat.


 
That JC Whitney one looks cool..err...HOT!

Some people reviewing it are saying the cord is too short and they are cutting the plug off and hard-wiring it in. I'd recommend keeping the plug on and wiring a receptacle to the EV side of the system. 

That way it gives you the flexibility to run house power to the unit to warm up your car, then you can un-plug it from house power and plug it in and run it off the battery pack while your driving if needed from there.

That's the way I'd do it anyway.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

atzi said:


> Are you running 120 or 144 DC voltage to the JCWhitney heater box? How long have you run this unit. Seems like a viable system much cheaper than mine. You will have to insulate it I believe because when driven the road wind will pull away an amazing amount of heat.


Neither yet. I've just been prototyping the system and trying to make sure I think it will suit my needs. Currently just running it off 120 AC. I'll be running 144 DC to it, or that's the plan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems to me a lot of these pumps are much larger than needed to circulate fluid which is probably why they make so much noise.
Though I have not personally used it this one seems to have the proper specs and I would imagine it's not very loud since it's low pressure and low flow: http://store.solar-electric.com/100-00-21.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a less expensive alternative to the JCW heater:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQUUR6


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

the katz 13150 is the one I used, as found in the other thread


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

OK, let me resurrect this old thread 

I followed some suggestions here and got 1500W katz heater off Amazon and that little 12v pump that JRP3 suggested, its 1 GPM rated.

Before I had my batteries I tested the rig with house 120AC outlet. It heated up within a minute or two, pump is somewhat loud, but that doesn't bother me since here in Tampa I will only need it few times a year for few minutes in the morning, so I was pretty happy with the test.....until.....
last night I tried it with main battery pack, 128V DC nominal, 135V DC actual, not too much off from 120AC , right? wrong.... it heated up so freaking fast, that liquid started to boil and heater housing started to smell funny, so I immediately shut it off 

so, what's going on? Is that because DC puts more power into the element since there is no sine wave, but solid current? do I need bigger pump to circulate the liquid faster? 

Also, I am afraid this pump's impeller might melt down, not sure its rated for this high temp.

this sucks, I hate to redo the whole rig before I even drove the EV, unless I find an easy solution I might just leave it off till next winter...

those auto water pumps on Ebay look great, but $85 compared to $30 I already spent on this little one, feels like throwing good money after the bad 

any thoughts???

thanks


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Oh, yea, one more thing. When I pumped the liquid into the system, it only took about 1/4 gallon, does that sound right? What should be the volume of the heater core in a typical car? maybe there is an air bubble left in there and that's why it doesn't circulate well enough?

does it matter what position heater control was in when I pumped it in? I imagine heater control just controls the passage around the heater core, not the inside of it? right? wrong?

thanks


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

you can put together a pwm circuit and an igbt to vary the current.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

etischer said:


> you can put together a pwm circuit and an igbt to vary the current.


thanks, but the idea was to keep it simple 

I was driven by apparent success stories of people who built essentially same rig, so I must have done something wrong


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

etischer,

you got me thinking about PWM and I thought of an idea. I can put automotive flasher relay in front of my heater relay, so heater is turned on and off like a turn signal light, thus reducing duty cycle of the heater element and reducing heat production. Water pump will not be effected since I have it on separate 12v line before heater relay.

Think this should work? I wonder if standard flashing relay is 50% duty cycle or more, or less? I never paid attention, do turn lights stay on same time as they are off while flashing?


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

I'd think that the whole system would take more than a quart of water. That would fill the heater core only on most systems, and perhaps some of the hose. I'd think that you would be needing a couple of gallons of water once the pump, heating reservoir and hoses are taken into account. As to whether the heater control matters, that will depend on how the vehicle was set up with the ICE. Some of them have blockoffs that are vacuum operated, some have blockoffs that are electric, but the valve would be obvious if it were there. If you just connected the heater directly to the firewall with a couple of hoses, eliminating everything related to the heater that's under the hood, then there should be no valve at all. On every car I've seen, the heater core has metal lines that extend through the firewall for the hoses to mount to directly so there's no valve inside the heater box to worry about, but that doesn't mean that there isn't on yours. 

Now if your fill point was directly on the pump unit, and you mounted it near the frame as most people do, then you aren't filling the entire system up. If this is the case, I'd suggest getting one of these little beauties and mounting it right at the firewall on the highest hose you can. This will make the fill point the highest point in the system and will make it a lot easier to get the air out. Plus, if you get one with the overflow and use a pressure cap you'll have a safety overload in case the system goes haywire. It would be a lot better to let the water come out at 16lbs than at 1600lbs, at which point the system would have already exploded. 

The unit may have overheated on DC because apparently there are differences in how the temp sensors operate, and there should be some sort of thermostat to keep the unit from cooking itself to death incorporated in it. I did locate a warranty disclaimer for the unit while trying to find the manu website, and it has an 888 number you can call to see if you can get a little technical assistance on whether the unit can be operated on DC, or if it needs to be worked over. 

You may have to just get an inverter to run the unit, if nothing else. Hope all this helps.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Telco,

good points, looks like thermostat is not working when run via DC, so it runs away and boils. Also, this unit seems to be an overkill for EV heating, at least in my climate zone. Without thermostat control, even with flasher relay it will eventually overheat, since there is not enough water circulating in this short loop ,compared to what its designed for. I guess I should have thought about it before building it 

Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not sure it actually has a thermostat in it. I've only had mine plugged into 120 AC, but why not just put an external thermostat on it instead of trying to control the voltage? If it's heating that quickly then it will just shut off quickly and preserve your battery pack. My system did not take much liquid either, maybe 1/2 gallon if that. You may still have some air in your system. Put the pump before the heater to keep it cooler.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

It definitely has internal thermostat, after Telco's suggestion I actually looked in the manual. Also, in my 120V AC test it behaved like it had thermostat ( i.e. it kept same hot temperature ), I just never thought it would fail to work on DC. The difference is huge, water was boiling within seconds when run on DC 

I am going thru original thread by Chamilun, there was a mention about thermostat not working on DC, I guess I missed it originally. That sucks...

Any idea of a cheap thermostat I could insert into the loop to control heater relay?

Thanks


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Look at this page, about halfway down. This one says that it must attach directly to the tank where there's no insulation. Also, if you go with a thermostat you want to make sure that it only affects the heater element, not the whole unit. This may require that you open your unit and modify it a bit if it only has one power line for both heater and pump. You don't want the pump turning off when the water's hot enough. No idea if this one will work, but it's what I found. 

Might also see if you can find and remove the AC thermostat in your unit, then visit the local appliance repair parts store to see if there is a DC equivalent.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Looks like heater is blown, it no longer works and fails continuity test. After much thought I figured that I don't need liquid heater for the minimal use here in Tampa, I will rip the whole thing out and when next winter comes I can get a $25 portable 12v dash mounted heater, there are plenty on Ebay, they are 200 Watt, should be enough to raise temp few degrees.

Thanks for all the suggestions, its been helpful


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

if in doubt, rip it out 

good luck!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Looks like heater is blown, it no longer works and fails continuity test. After much thought I figured that I don't need liquid heater for the minimal use here in Tampa, I will rip the whole thing out and when next winter comes I can get a $25 portable 12v dash mounted heater, there are plenty on Ebay, they are 200 Watt, should be enough to raise temp few degrees.


I might be interested in the pump if you're not going to use it and it's still functioning.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Bummer. Seeing as you are ripping it out, which will involve removing the heater core, might look into a ceramic heater instead. I think they can work off DC directly, and the folks that have them seem to be pretty happy with them.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Telco said:


> Bummer. Seeing as you are ripping it out, which will involve removing the heater core, might look into a ceramic heater instead. I think they can work off DC directly, and the folks that have them seem to be pretty happy with them.


I'm not touching the heater core, just removing the pump and the heater from the firewall under the hood. My entire approach to the project was to avoid dash removal, and I am still sticking to it. Granted, if I lived up North, I would have no choice but to get proper heating setup, but here in FL, its just not worth the trouble. I am still baffled why I even started with this setup in the first place, sometimes you just look back and go "WTF was I thinking ".

I will use small 12V DC ceramic heater, just not going to mount it permanently since I only need it few times a year.

JRP3, you have PM...


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