# Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Anybody have a list of Hub Motor suppliers for EV conversions?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

www.pmlflightlink.com<http://www.pmlflightlink.com/> they are in the uk but they also have the controllers for the different sized motors 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS



Anybody have a list of Hub Motor suppliers for EV conversions?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Do you mean for full size cars?

If so, then there is NGM http://www.ngmcorp.com/index1.html
They make hub motors, though they are a bit on the weak side for a full
size car, however you could always use two or more.

Of course at something like $25,000 each, you'd better have deep pockets.

>
> Anybody have a list of Hub Motor suppliers for EV conversions?
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

You know, what are these people thinking? Hub motors are attractive in some ways, but the unsprung weight isn't. Why the high price?

Eventually the more normal packaged motors will be high RPM, direct liquid cooled at a pretty good price, so hubs may never catch up to that.

The only way a hub motor will keep up to the next iteration is to Liquid-cool it, Give it internal planetary gearing for high RPM, then maybe you have something with low enough weight to be attractive.

Or am I wrong to think the PML's are direct drive cisero type motors? I know they are not direct liquid cooled.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:27:40 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > Do you mean for full size cars?> > If so, then there is NGM http://www.ngmcorp.com/index1.html> They make hub motors, though they are a bit on the weak side for a full> size car, however you could always use two or more.> > Of course at something like $25,000 each, you'd better have deep pockets.> > >> > Anybody have a list of Hub Motor suppliers for EV conversions?> >> > _______________________________________________> > For subscription options, see> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> >> > > -- > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long> legalistic signature is void.> > ______________________________________!
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

<<< You know, what are these people thinking? Hub motors are 
attractive in some ways, but the unsprung weight isn't. Why the high 
price?

Eventually the more normal packaged motors will be high RPM, direct 
liquid cooled at a pretty good price, so hubs may never catch up to 
that.

The only way a hub motor will keep up to the next iteration is to 
Liquid-cool it, Give it internal planetary gearing for high RPM, then 
maybe you have something with low enough weight to be attractive.

Or am I wrong to think the PML's are direct drive cisero type motors? 
I know they are not direct liquid cooled. >>>

That's one of the points of discussion in their FAQs: 
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_faq.html

It does have the controller integral with the motor, but how much 
cooling does this combo need? No price on the site, so does that mean 
"if you have to ask, you can't afford it"?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

I think a big attraction to wheel motors is it would
make a conversion pretty simple, no trans adapters,
etc.
But in fact, for now at least, seems placing the 1/2
ton of lead-acid batteries in the car is the most time
consuming effort.
Jack


> --- Arak Leatham <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > You know, what are these people thinking? Hub motors
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

another thing I wondered about the hub motors, is what about the
unsprung weight of the motors? I mean, you have 100lbs of motor
directly on the ground in a car... on each wheel, that can't be good.
Plus, what about the intertia? the wheels are going to act like gyro's
when you try and stear at high speeds (even though the heavy part of
the motor us not moving).

Just curious.



> Jack Murray <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I think a big attraction to wheel motors is it would
> > make a conversion pretty simple, no trans adapters,
> > etc.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

This thread is interesting to me because I have built
a number of lightweight hub motor vehicles and even
designed a somewhat larger hub motor. I believe it is
the future. 4 or even 6 to eight hub motors can drive
a car just fine look at the (oops brain f#*t) well
anyway the concept car built in japan with 8 wheels
that is fast and big. Because the hub motors are
spread out around the car they are not nearly as heavy
as say one 9". and because they are spread out they
can be used along with a computer controlled traction
system to make the vehicle handle better. when we
talk about unsprung weight think about all the
modified pick-ups and suvs with those huge tires and
wheels..they weigh much more than hub motors as do the
vehicles they support. as to hooking up and placing
batteries yes that is a pain but when we get that ever
elusive 9maybe not so elusive) battery then we will
have one 2 or 300 lb power pack and it won't be a
difficult to build electric. maybe even the large
auto manufactures will see the light

kEVs


> --- Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > another thing I wondered about the hub motors, is
> > what about the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

And also it makes the interior space of the car much
more flexible. FWD cars eliminated the big hump
inside the car. AWED cars (all-wheel electric drive
 will eliminate the big engine area too.

Some have mentioned that hydraulic wheel motors might
be an answer, the electric motor(s) drive a hydraulic
pump (and would make hybrids that much easier)
Don't know what losses they have though. Remember
that gas cars could do much of the same things that
electrics could, so what isn't done with gas today,
might tell you something. 

If you can build inexpensive and effective wheel
motors, I'm sure they would sell. seems to work well
with bikes today.

Jack

--- keith vansickle <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > This thread is interesting to me because I have
> > built
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> when we
> talk about unsprung weight think about all the
> modified pick-ups and suvs with those huge tires and
> wheels..they weigh much more than hub motors as do the
> vehicles they support.

There are a couple problems with your logic.
First, it's not the absolute weight of the wheels that matter, but rather
the ratio of srpung to unsprung weight. The fact that the vehicles are so
heavy is why they can get away with heavy wheels.
Second, pickups and SUVs with big wheels aren't exactly known to have good
handling, especially at speed.

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legalistic signature is void.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Folks are much too worried about unsprung weight. A Mustang (solid axle version) at autocross nationals this year took first in its class (F-Stock)... It also would have trophied (top 25% finish) in Super Stock (Corvettes and Porsche GT3), would have trophied in A-Stock (dominated by Corvettes and Honda S2000), would have taken first place in the other 6 stock classes (including beating cars like 350Z, RX8, and Miata).

http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/5632_Final%20Results%2011.14.pdf

Do realize a solid rear axle weighs around 250 or 300 pounds! I'll bet if you simplified a Camaro or Mustang rear axle to be a simple tube with a hub motor at each end, you could have a 100 lb hub motor at each end and still be lighter. A 50 pound hub motor at each end would clearly be lighter.

Also realize that few people can tell whether they are driving an IRS vs. a solid axle car, despite around an extra 50 to 100 pounds of extra unsprung weight on the solid axle car.

I think the bigger issue would be if the motor can handle the jarring and road spray.

So don't get me wrong, an IRS car is faster, especially on bumpy surfaces, but just a little bit faster.

----- Original Message ----


> --- Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> > another thing I wondered about the hub motors, is
> > what about the
> > unsprung weight of the motors? I mean, you have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> 
> I think the bigger issue would be if the motor can
> handle the jarring and road spray.
> 
>I think you have hit upon the real problem however I
have a few 100 mi on a trike with an unsprung rear hub
motor that still works fine but it doesn't go very
fast ant the vehicle is compared to a car very light


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

I won the '83 Chicago Region Solo II F stock class championship with my 82 
Camaro too, the solid axle wasn't
a problem. Solid axles work well on smooth surfaces because they maintain 
zero camber regardless of body roll better than independant, until you lift 
a wheel anyway. But if you've ever pushed a solid axle car hard through a 
bumpy corner, especially with low profile tires, the back end can hop around 
on you. My '74 Lotus Elite went so far as to move the drum brakes on the 
independant rear suspension inboard. Of course if you don't push it, the 
only thing you will suffer is ride like my Jeep.

On the other hand, if you're adding a bunch of lead, the sprung to unsprung 
weight ratio may not change that radically.

I'm guessing the gyro effect wouldn't be too bad due to the small armature 
diameter compared to the rotational effect of the much larger diameter tire.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS


> Folks are much too worried about unsprung weight. A Mustang (solid axle 
> version) at autocross nationals this year took first in its class 
> (F-Stock)... It also would have trophied (top 25% finish) in Super Stock 
> (Corvettes and Porsche GT3), would have trophied in A-Stock (dominated by 
> Corvettes and Honda S2000), would have taken first place in the other 6 
> stock classes (including beating cars like 350Z, RX8, and Miata).
>
> http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/5632_Final%20Results%2011.14.pdf
>
> Do realize a solid rear axle weighs around 250 or 300 pounds! I'll bet if 
> you simplified a Camaro or Mustang rear axle to be a simple tube with a 
> hub motor at each end, you could have a 100 lb hub motor at each end and 
> still be lighter. A 50 pound hub motor at each end would clearly be 
> lighter.
>
> Also realize that few people can tell whether they are driving an IRS vs. 
> a solid axle car, despite around an extra 50 to 100 pounds of extra 
> unsprung weight on the solid axle car.
>
> I think the bigger issue would be if the motor can handle the jarring and 
> road spray.
>
> So don't get me wrong, an IRS car is faster, especially on bumpy surfaces, 
> but just a little bit faster.
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> rather the ratio of srpung to unsprung weight
=

Yes that's my problem with Hub motors.
=

If you have an all battery ev, you may get a better balance with the extra =
battery weight. You know 'Road Huggin weight' as the old adds used to say.
=

But I'm considering light weight hybrid vehicles with small packs of Liion.
=

Wheel hubs aren't as attractive in that use. Whn my body becomes a signific=
ant portionof the weght I become the dampener. =

=

Let me tell you about low hum fatigue. Keep your commute very short. It get=
s old fast.
=

I'm also having trouble with the half shafts in a 2r1r arrangement. I'm thi=
nking the HST may be a good idea even with the losses. I have the video com=
ing from some experimentors, so I'll look into it. I'm only needing 10hp pe=
ak power so the motors should be cheep at least.



=





Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11=
:45:25 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: =
[EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > > > when we> > talk about unsprung weight=
think about all the> > modified pick-ups and suvs with those huge tires an=
d> > wheels..they weigh much more than hub motors as do the> > vehicles the=
y support.> > There are a couple problems with your logic.> First, it's not=
the absolute weight of the wheels that matter, but rather> the ratio of sr=
pung to unsprung weight. The fact that the vehicles are so> heavy is why th=
ey can get away with heavy wheels.> Second, pickups and SUVs with big wheel=
s aren't exactly known to have good> handling, especially at speed.> > -- >=
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic> ju=
nk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I> w=
ish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long> lega=
listic signature is void.> > ______________________________________________=
_> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Unsprung weight is critical as cars get lighter. I have watched stupid
low-riders put 50plus pound 18" rims on a honda accord and loose control
going accroos and intersection and crash. MY ev has the heaviest wheels
of the whole group, but it can afford to, It's budget is higher.

The solid rear axle is bad, but it tips when 1 wheel hits a bump so the
unsprung weight is not as bad as the whole axle. It is also distributed
across the vehicles width, and not concentrated at the end.

This same principle holds true weather it is a flywheel or a dumbell
distribution of weight on a car. The effectiveness of the weight is
proportional to the square of it's distance from the center of rotation.


Jaguars and indy cars moved the brakes inboard originally to reduce
unsprung weight, however they got hot, so they were moved back out and
lightened.


BTW what year mustang? after the 60's the mustang was not known for
being a light car!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

On a bicycle, your legs are the suspension and you are the counteracting
mass.
If you were to sit firmly on the seat at speed over a speedbump, you may
loose control, get out of the saddle and let the bike bounce and jounce
in a short controlled period of time and it stays in control.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

It was a new Shelby Mustang that did so well at autocross. They weigh around 3500 pounds.

Another factor in unsprung weight is how tall and flexible the tire sidewall is. The rokon ( http://www.rokon.com/ ) two wheel drive motorcycle depends on its tires for suspension. Camaro autcrossers and road racers warn against going with too low a profile tire, as the tire compliance is needed for the extra axle weight.

A solid rear axle is already somewhat a dumbbell distribution -- the backing plate, axle flange/hub, brake disk, brake, parking brake, shocks, control arms, wheel, and tire all concentrate weight at or towards the ends.

With an electric, you can be a little more creative with packaging. If weight at the end is really a problem (and I'd contend the problem is being overblown), you could move the motors and brakes to the center of the axle, and reduce the rotational inertia by 1/2 (1/2 the distance squared, but twice the weight in the middle as the mass of both ends gets moved to the middle), kind of like how Golf carts do it. You could depend on the front brakes for the majority of braking, and do the rear brakes with regen, shedding alot of friction brake weight off the ends. You could make the rim part of the motor, combining functions and saving some weight. You could also get lighter wheels, a common racer's trick.

So it should be possible to get an electric rear axle comparable in weight and even moment of inertia to a conventional solid axle. Yes, an IRS will outhandle it -- but if you don't race around corners the convenience of rolling under and bolting in the electric drivetrain could be a worthy trade-off.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:08:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS

Unsprung weight is critical as cars get lighter. I have watched stupid
low-riders put 50plus pound 18" rims on a honda accord and loose
control
going accroos and intersection and crash. MY ev has the heaviest wheels
of the whole group, but it can afford to, It's budget is higher.

The solid rear axle is bad, but it tips when 1 wheel hits a bump so the
unsprung weight is not as bad as the whole axle. It is also distributed
across the vehicles width, and not concentrated at the end.

This same principle holds true weather it is a flywheel or a dumbell
distribution of weight on a car. The effectiveness of the weight is
proportional to the square of it's distance from the center of
rotation.


Jaguars and indy cars moved the brakes inboard originally to reduce
unsprung weight, however they got hot, so they were moved back out and
lightened.


BTW what year mustang? after the 60's the mustang was not known for
being a light car!

----- More Original Message ----
From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:05:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS

Folks are much too worried about unsprung weight. A Mustang (solid axle
version) at autocross nationals this year took first in its class
(F-Stock)... It also would have trophied (top 25% finish) in Super Stock
(Corvettes and Porsche GT3), would have trophied in A-Stock (dominated by
Corvettes and Honda S2000), would have taken first place in the other
6 stock classes (including beating cars like 350Z, RX8, and Miata).

http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/5632_Final%20Results%2011.14.pdf

Do realize a solid rear axle weighs around 250 or 300 pounds! I'll bet
if you simplified a Camaro or Mustang rear axle to be a simple tube
with a hub motor at each end, you could have a 100 lb hub motor at each
end and still be lighter. A 50 pound hub motor at each end would clearly
be lighter.

Also realize that few people can tell whether they are driving an IRS
vs. a solid axle car, despite around an extra 50 to 100 pounds of extra
unsprung weight on the solid axle car.

I think the bigger issue would be if the motor can handle the jarring
and road spray.

So don't get me wrong, an IRS car is faster, especially on bumpy
surfaces, but just a little bit faster.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Folks, don't forget little "inconvenience" that to run
4 hub motors you must have 4 separate AC inverters
with associated complexity and expense. Technically 4 hubs
are slick, I agree, but when you compare the weight, size,
complexity [and so the cost] of an inverter to that of a
half-shaft + couple of gears, you may get a different
perspective of what's practical (at least today).

-
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> >> rather the ratio of srpung to unsprung weight
> >
> > Yes that's my problem with Hub motors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Folks, don't forget little "inconvenience" that to run
4 hub motors you must have 4 separate AC inverters
with associated complexity and expense. Technically 4 hubs
are slick, I agree but when you compare the weight, size,
complexity [and so the cost] of an inverter to that of a
half-shaft, you may get a different perspective of what's
practical (at least today).

-
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> >> rather the ratio of srpung to unsprung weight
> >
> > Yes that's my problem with Hub motors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > Folks, don't forget little "inconvenience" that to run
> > 4 hub motors you must have 4 separate AC inverters
> > with associated complexity and expense. Technically 4 hubs
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > Some have mentioned that hydraulic wheel motors might
> > be an answer, the electric motor(s) drive a hydraulic
> > pump (and would make hybrids that much easier)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Metric Mind wrote:
> > Folks, don't forget little "inconvenience" that to run
> > 4 hub motors you must have 4 separate AC inverters
> > with associated complexity and expense. Technically 4 hubs
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Although-

See this video... Hmm.. They claim to have fixed every hub motor issue:

http://www.uqm.com/crusher.html


BUT... Ask them how much they cost... HUGE Bucks

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Metric Mind
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS

Folks, don't forget little "inconvenience" that to run
4 hub motors you must have 4 separate AC inverters with associated
complexity and expense. Technically 4 hubs are slick, I agree but when you
compare the weight, size, complexity [and so the cost] of an inverter to
that of a half-shaft, you may get a different perspective of what's
practical (at least today).

-
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> >> rather the ratio of srpung to unsprung weight
> >
> > Yes that's my problem with Hub motors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

I have an idea, it may very well be done earlier, if done, please guide me to the
sources.

Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing
opposite sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They are
connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.

These motors are mounted to the chassis and are hence unsprung.

These
motors can be cheaper DC series wound as we need high torque and lower RPM.

These motors can be driven by one or two DC controllers which can switch all these
motors in series parallel combos based on speed torque etc.

Is this a
viable solution? It will definitely be cheaper than 4 AC drives.

Thanks
for your inputs

Joseph.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Joseph,

Very good idea. Between the motor and wheel it would help to have some
gear reduction to spin the motor faster to get additional cooling and
torque. A simple gear box, or chain or belt drive reduction would help.
The closest thing I have seen is the four wheel drive Subaru Impreza of
ProEV Inc. that has a motor at both the front and rear differentials:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/464 
Going with multiple motors allows the series / parallel switching for
torque to start and speed, like the electric drag bike KillaCycle of
Bill Dube:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/453 
More motors and more controllers could give outstanding performance, or
could allow for the use of lower powered units to achieve acceptable
performance.

Alan 
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 8:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS



I have an idea, it may very well be done earlier, if done, please guide
me to the
sources.

Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing
opposite sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They
are
connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.

These motors are mounted to the chassis and are hence unsprung.

These
motors can be cheaper DC series wound as we need high torque and lower
RPM.

These motors can be driven by one or two DC controllers which can switch
all these
motors in series parallel combos based on speed torque etc.

Is this a
viable solution? It will definitely be cheaper than 4 AC drives.

Thanks
for your inputs

Joseph.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing
> opposite sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They
> are
> connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.
>
> These motors are mounted to the chassis and are hence unsprung.


I believe you mean "sprung" The chasis is sprung, the wheels are unsprung.

At any rate I can think of a couple vehicles that use what you are
describing...
The Tango and "Gone Postal"
The Tango is a custom made (limit production?) very narrow vehicle and
Gone Postal is a drag racing vehicle made from an old postal van.

> Is this a viable solution?

Certainly.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> Although-
> See this video... Hmm.. They claim to have fixed every hub motor issue:
> http://www.uqm.com/crusher.html
> BUT... Ask them how much they cost... HUGE Bucks

My dad used to say "You can fix anything...if you have enough time and
money."


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing
> >> opposite sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They
> >> are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Apparently all six wheels are computerized to watch themselves when it lifts
off the ground like it does in the video. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS


> Although-
> See this video... Hmm.. They claim to have fixed every hub motor issue:
> http://www.uqm.com/crusher.html
> BUT... Ask them how much they cost... HUGE Bucks

My dad used to say "You can fix anything...if you have enough time and
money."


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Heavens.. that is wild.. Can they provide some real world data about all the
problems listed here and the actual occurrence of those issues in their
vehicle? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roy LeMeur
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:28 PM
To: EVDL EVDL
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS







> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing opposite
> >> sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They are
> >> connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

The Tango web site is www.commutercar.com - very open and informative

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:37 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS

Heavens.. that is wild.. Can they provide some real world data about all the
problems listed here and the actual occurrence of those issues in their
vehicle? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roy LeMeur
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:28 PM
To: EVDL EVDL
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS







> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing opposite
> >> sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They are
> >> connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

That hub motor will be pretty cool 'till you get a flat tire...

I could hardly change a 4Runner tire by myself, they're so big & heavy. 
Can't imagine changing a HEAVIER wheel and then having 1/4 to 1/2 power 
left in my car!

OTOH, I do like the HUB motor on my bicycle. Wind? Hills? No problem! Ant 
it certainly gives you the vibes at low speed...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

>From a past thread, a lot of EV conversions don't even carry spare tires. Just a patching kit and an AAA membership.

----- Original Message ----

That hub motor will be pretty cool 'till you get a flat tire...





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> > That hub motor will be pretty cool 'till you get a flat tire...
> >
> > I could hardly change a 4Runner tire by myself, they're so big & heavy.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

see www.detalidon.com as a comparison. or the wikipedia for Zen EV converson.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:36:58 -0500> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > > > I have an idea, it may very well be done earlier, if done, please guide me to the> sources.> > Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing> opposite sides where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They are> connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.> > These motors are mounted to the chassis and are hence unsprung.> > These> motors can be cheaper DC series wound as we need high torque and lower RPM.> > These motors can be driven by one or two DC controllers which can switch all these> motors in series parallel combos based on speed torque etc.> > Is this a> viable solution? It will definitely be cheaper than 4 AC drives.> > Thanks> for your inputs> > Joseph.> > > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> !
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Well that's a huge off road thing, most of the road-feel spring is in the tires on those.

The motor is insulated from most road shock by the thick tires. Suspension on it just give you more rock climbing and bump rounding.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:10:01 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > > > Although-> > See this video... Hmm.. They claim to have fixed every hub motor issue:> > http://www.uqm.com/crusher.html> > BUT... Ask them how much they cost... HUGE Bucks> > My dad used to say "You can fix anything...if you have enough time and> money."> > > -- > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long> legalistic signature is void.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Roy LeMeur <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > You are assuming that the motor would be a part of the wheel/tire assembly.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

> if you have enough time and money

I like to say it takes either money OR time, usually at least a little of both.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:10:01 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > > > Although-> > See this video... Hmm.. They claim to have fixed every hub motor issue:> > http://www.uqm.com/crusher.html> > BUT... Ask them how much they cost... HUGE Bucks> > My dad used to say "You can fix anything...if you have enough time and> money."> > > -- > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long> legalistic signature is void.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Instead of hub motors, two motors sit in the center facing opposite
> > [ends] where the front and rear differentials normally sit. They are
> > connected to the wheels by cv joints and shafts like in normal cars.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

Rims should always be removeable from the motor and brakes.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:24:51 -0800> To: [email protected]> From: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS> > That hub motor will be pretty cool 'till you get a flat tire...> > I could hardly change a 4Runner tire by myself, they're so big & heavy. > Can't imagine changing a HEAVIER wheel and then having 1/4 to 1/2 power > left in my car!> > OTOH, I do like the HUB motor on my bicycle. Wind? Hills? No problem! Ant > it certainly gives you the vibes at low speed...> > > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

When you change the tire on your car now, do you remove the brakes as well?

"Hub" motors don't neccessarily have to be removed with the wheel.

> That hub motor will be pretty cool 'till you get a flat tire...
>
> I could hardly change a 4Runner tire by myself, they're so big & heavy.
> Can't imagine changing a HEAVIER wheel and then having 1/4 to 1/2 power
> left in my car!
>
> OTOH, I do like the HUB motor on my bicycle. Wind? Hills? No problem! Ant
> it certainly gives you the vibes at low speed...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > If efficiency is not the ultimate goal, you can use induction motors,
> > which will slip a bit (like a limited slip differential). This may let
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*

I'd like to point out that the original poster to this thread was
proposing the use of hub motors in a conversion. I would like to see
someone address the issues I raised in an earlier post to this thread
or at least address the problems of the original post. Thanks.



> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >
> > > If efficiency is not the ultimate goal, you can use induction motors,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> If efficiency is not the ultimate goal, you can use induction
> >> motors, which will slip a bit (like a limited slip differential).
> >> This may let you get away with a single inverter for 2 or 4 motors.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> > what models makes of induction motors are suitible for 5-10hp
> > continuous output? however, I would be going inboard not wheel hubs.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] HUB MOTORS/WHEEL MOTORS*



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> > Do you have a vendor suggestion for low power units, motor and pump?
> > Motor 5 or 10hp peak and pump 10-20 hp peak? Is it online?
> 
> ...


----------

