# 1970 Triumph Spitfire - Olympia, WA



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Great conversion! I'm a big fan of the roundtails as well. It looks like you have yourself a project. I would suggest a few things so far. 

Brace your shock towers. There used to be an engine between them, and they need that for strength. I made an aluminum bar to go between them, and hard bolted them to where the motor mounts used to sit. But, you can do it with almost anything. 

It looks like your motor is hard mounted to the frame. Is there no rubber underneath it? Motors are typically coupled to the frame through rubber. Otherwise it may transfer road vibration into your frame, giving you a rougher ride. I'm not really sure though. I'm just following convention.

730lbs of Lithium? You're going to have quite a long distance vehicle when you're done. You're probably going to have to upgrade the springs up front and put some air springs in the rear. Air springs designed for '60s Corvettes will work. You can get 'em from JC Whitney or any other site. Let me know if you need help picking out springs for the front. I have a spreadsheet that will help you choose your springs made specifically for the Spitfire frame.

Good luck!


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the tip on bracing the shock towers. I've been noticing on other performance cars the bracing across the top to stiffen the suspension. That will be a nice addition, and as you say, I can pretty much use anything.

I do have rubber pads underneath the motor, but thanks, you're right to check on that.

I've upgraded the shocks to gas-adjust, but the springs up front are stock, as are the leaf springs in the rear. I'm going to see how it all sits when it's said and done. Right now the car will be 200 pounds over stock when it's finished, so I should be in good shape.

Just saw your roundtail, beauty. Do you need a transmission? I have one I don't need.

I got a nice (straight) set of stock wheels from a spitfire forum and had them powder coated. From the pics looks like yours came out just about as nice. My wheels that came with the car are knocked about quite badly. Got all the chrome re-done locally and that is absolutely shining now. Can't wait to get a paint job done, but as you can see from the blog, not quite ready for that yet.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

The transmission is the weakest link in the drivetrain, now that I've gotten rid of it, why would I want another?  You've also figured out that direct drive is the way to go for these small cars. If my 9" WarP is enough, then your monster motor will definitely be ample. I like the spiral on the drive shaft as well.

I'm not sure about your particular batteries, but I knew there were some problems with having them horizontal. Is that still an issue with Lithiums? You're clearly able to pack them better into the gas tank area that way, though. Are you going to save room for the plug in the fuel filler? That's a must in my book. 

By the way, apparently someone did some statistics on how Spitfires rust, and they found that the brown ones held up better for some reason. Maybe something in the paint itself? Great find with the hardtop, too. I love mine.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

A fellow named Cory in the Seattle EVA recently bought an already converted spitfire. It had a blown motor and damaged transaxle so he got it cheap, but now that its running again its actually a pretty neat car. Its a curtis / DC / lead acid setup so not as fancy as yours is shaping up to be, but might still be worth trading ideas.

I don't think he would mind if I gave you his email. PM me if you want it.


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

BottomFeeder, you know Otmar had the same concern about laying the lithium down, but ThunderSky says it is fine to do so and a couple of engineers I have talked to say that this won't be a problem. And as you said, with them laying flat I can squeeze a lot more into that petrol tank area.

I'm open to suggestions on what to use the old filler cap for. I was going to dremmel out the collar so that I can put a guage or something in it. There's really not going to be enough room to use it for the actual outlet/plugin.

The painter I'm going to be working with said that this brown is basically the primer, so I wonder if the brown somehow has protected these cars better than the other colours. That's an interesting factoid. He he.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I was able to squeeze a 110V inlet into my filler cap. I had to shop around a bit to get the right one. And the mounting holes won't work. I'll just glue it into place once I've got it wired up. But, that's not a big problem at all.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

You know those cells has to be held in compression right? From the mockups it seems like you may be overlooking this, I guess it depends on how rigid your boxes come out.

Nice work by the way!


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

Bottomfeeder - I've actually thought about the idea of having that be a 110 volt OUTLET. For showing off the car it would be nice to have that be an outlet I can tap into. Sort of like a generator (for like a laptop, or electric photo frame) just another way to show people what they aren't getting from the major car companies.

Peggus - Can you explain further what you mean by compression? If you mean a tight fit, these boxes are coming out extremely tight fitting. As though the plates were fitted and strapped to the cells (like in their groups of 5 they typically come in) Or do you mean something else?

If anyone else has any feedback about the cells needing to be upright, versus laying down on their side please weigh in.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

They tend to swell up in the middle both during normal use and especially during abuse. The straps and endplates are there to prevent it. As long as your box has really rigid sides and is a really tight fit you should be ok. Maybe add some shims so that the cells can barely be stuffed into the box, that will make it a pain to remove them though.


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

Peggus - those little buggers are in there really tight after the build (see blog) so it sounds like I'm going to be in good shape.

Cheers.


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## mko (Nov 27, 2009)

Great conversion and also a nice blog you have. I keep checking the blog frequently and I am eager to see you coming back to the EV related stuff, once the "boring" restauration is done.

There is one question however that keeps bugging me, especially since I'm also planning for a Spitfire conversion (it's a 1972 Mk IV): you estimate the final weight being just 90 kg (sorry, I'm a metric guy) over stock. This would mean some 850 kg. I would have expected way more, considering you have over 350 kg in lithium and you motor is also no lightweight. 
Could you kindly explain the math behind this? 

Your feedback is much apreciated.

Cheers, c.k.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

mko said:


> There is one question however that keeps bugging me, especially since I'm also planning for a Spitfire conversion (it's a 1972 Mk IV): you estimate the final weight being just 90 kg (sorry, I'm a metric guy) over stock. This would mean some 850 kg. I would have expected way more, considering you have over 350 kg in lithium and you motor is also no lightweight.
> Could you kindly explain the math behind this?
> Cheers, c.k.


While I'm not doing a Spit., my MG is representative. My Kerb wt. was ~1700#(770kg); De-ICEed (glider) was ~1200#(543kg) = 500#(227kg) removed. That included removing the spare tyre. Mine had the 1275cc (~250#/113kg) engine not the 1500 Spit engine so your engine may weigh more. I plan to add 300#(136kg) for Li battery and 150#(66kg) for motor/controller, etc. Which puts me 50#(23kg) UNDER stock. Your mileage may vary.


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

MKO and Farmer - First off, apologies for the delayed response. As you pointed out MKO I'm in the VERY boring stage (bodywork) good news is I'm getting BLOODY close. Finishing up the mudding this weekend and will be priming next week. After a last glaze and wet sanding we'll be sealing and painting. Then I'm off to wiring the thing up and dare I say it DRIVING IT!

My weight is based on weighing the car as it stands now with motor installed. All that's left to add to the car is the battery pack which will be 730 pounds (kg would be?) 

Granted our weighing method was creative, but I don't think we're off more than 30 pounds at the MOST. These spitfires seem to have been made a match in heaven for converting.

Thanks for checking the blog, it's current to date with the exception of adding all the boring mudding pictures. Since there's already three parts for bodywork I'm going to wait and publish one last bodywork entry when the thing is painted. 

Then the real fun begins and the blog will again focus more on the conversion. The restoration has been such a big part of this conversion that I thought it warranted having the blog entries.

Cheers.


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh, and that link for people is http://www.automotiveartistry.com

go to autoblog once you get there.

Just bought the paint! Batteries are on their way into country. Now to drum up the money for them!


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

RupertWild said:


> MKO and Farmer - First off, apologies for the delayed response. As you pointed out MKO I'm in the VERY boring stage (bodywork) good news is I'm getting BLOODY close. Finishing up the mudding this weekend and will be priming next week. After a last glaze and wet sanding we'll be sealing and painting. Then I'm off to wiring the thing up and dare I say it DRIVING IT!


I am truly impressed with the amount of skill and dedication that has gone into this restoration.

I wouldn't dare attempt a full frame off restoration of my GT6, given my budget constraints. I do need to weld in new floor pans, and have a 6 inch spot of rust damage around my battery box, and about three 2-3" bubbles on my rocker panels, but other than those, there is no other visible rust on my donor. When I inspected this vehicle as a potential donor, my magnet found no bondo spots. I have yet to see the condition of the actual frame of the car, but if worst comes to worst, I can find a Spitfire frame in restorable condition for cheap(< $500).

Your blog has been an extremely informative read.



> My weight is based on weighing the car as it stands now with motor installed. All that's left to add to the car is the battery pack which will be 730 pounds (kg would be?)
> 
> Granted our weighing method was creative, but I don't think we're off more than 30 pounds at the MOST. These spitfires seem to have been made a match in heaven for converting.


How much does it weigh with the electric motor? How much does the electric motor weigh? Does the vehicle weight include your battery boxes, and if so, how much did they weigh? Is this 'dry' weight, without occupants/driver? I want a good picture of what your 'glider' weight is. My chassis has mostly the same components as yours, except that my engine weighs 402 lbs since it is an inline 6.

It seems that my estimations for my vehicle weight may be pessimistic if yours measurements are accurate. I'm going to come in somewhere around 2350 lbs with a 738 lb pack of AGMs by my own estimates(this includes my weight as driver); it weighs 2030 lbs stock, 'wet' curb weight with all fluids, spare tire, ect. This 2350 lbs weight also accounts for me removing the spare tire, bumpers, installing lightweight seats, lightweight wheels, and a few other things. If the reality is that it will weigh around 2200-2250 lbs instead, I would really like to know that so that I could size a larger battery pack and improve my range without going over GVWR. I have an Mk III chassis with an Mk II body on it; the GVWR of the MkIII chassis is 2,525 lbs.

Do you recall how much each ICE related component that you removed weighed? Finding information on how much the gas tank, exhaust, dc generator, and other ancillary components weighed online has so far proven impossible.



> Then the real fun begins and the blog will again focus more on the conversion. The restoration has been such a big part of this conversion that I thought it warranted having the blog entries.
> 
> Cheers.


Once again, the information was excellent!


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

I thought of you guys when I didn't go to this auction today:

http://www.brzostek.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/005372.1.786708460820273839

4, count 'em, 4 1965 Triumphs for restoration/parts/conversion. Yikes. I was looking at the John Deere 110 for electric conversion, but ended up not having a car to get up there today...


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

SJC - nice find!

Toe - The only time I have done a weigh in is the one I described to you. When I bought the car (as you can see from the blog) the motor and transmission came straight out. The petrol tank was already removed (and restored) so I don't know the weight on that specifically.

I will be weighing it when I get the pack in there and can give you a lot better idea. I have done NO shaving of weight so you'll have a good idea of what removing stock ICE and replacing with charger/controller/motor/batteries will do. My Lithium pack will weigh about what your pack does. I haven't modified any of the springs, but that would be the only place that needs attention if your too far over GVWR (for your range).

Have you thought about going Lithium? You'd open your range up no end.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

RupertWild said:


> SJC - nice find!


Yes, but it wasn't worth my life to go to the auction and perhaps bring it/them home. "Hi, honey. We'll need to be adding an entire wing onto the garage...What? You wanted me to finish the Porsche befo...now, sweetie, put down that carving knife!"


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

RupertWild said:


> Have you thought about going Lithium? You'd open your range up no end.


I would like to, but I don't currently have the money for a large enough LiFePO4 purchase to actually improve my range; with the budget I am currently allocating for a pack, with LiFePO4 I'd simply trade the PbA's horsepower away for pack longevity plus less weight. My design emphasis is on efficiency, first and foremost, combined with maximizing the high top speed that will result from that. Were I to spend as much money on a 9 kWh pack of LiFePO4 as I would a 10.44 kWh of Deka PbA AGMs(at the 2 hr rate), I'd have barely enough power to run a 72V Alltrax controller with the LiFePO4; while the lithium pack would be much lighter, and while my range would be about the same as if I had 740 lbs of lead acid(at 1-2 hr current draws for the lead), power would be too lacking. However, at max current draw, my range with LiFePO4 would undoubtedly be higher than max current draw with lead. With the PbA pack I'd be able to push my Prestolite to its limits(or beyond, in the off chance it goes *zorch*) while matching or beating the acceleration of a new car sold today.

If I win Jack Rickard's contest, I'm using LifePO4, no question. I'm not counting on that, and thus I am initially planning to use lead acid, and when I once again find work in my field, upgrading to LiFePO4 at a later date. I would LOVE a 30+ kWh pack in that car without going over GVWR, but I can't afford it right now. In a lightweight, aerodynamic car like a GT6/Spit, that pack would go a LONG way at a steady 25-30 mph...

With the proper construction, I see the possibility of 80-100 miles highway range in that car on lead, without losing the car's light and tossable feel. Unmodified Spits need 150-200 Wh/mile. Reverend Gadget's Spitfire was a real piece of work showing the raw efficiency that these cars can achieve with modification; ~100 Wh/mile for a 1900-2000 lbs conversion with a GT6 MkIII body on LRR tires with an inefficient ADC 6.7" motor! Unmodified Spitfires with a PbA pack weighing ~730 lbs can still get 35-50 miles range in real driving conditions without exceeding GVWR... and at 150-200 Wh/mile, Peukert's effect is really sapping range with lead. Cut your consumption by 1/3, you extend a lead acid battery's available capacity by almost the same amount, combined with the lower amount of energy being consumed. At 500A, I'd drain the battery completely in 3 minutes, so during a drive, using the performance and getting the range will be mutually exclusive, unlike LiFePO4. My tires are certainly rated below the maximum speed that this will be capable of...

Even if I only get 50 miles range, it will meet my needs and I will still be satisfied with it. I'm thinking it will do better when it is on the road, provided it has no drive line issues when I get it going.

Lithium in one of these would be very impressive. Stock bodied, with sticky performance tires, a 30-35 kWh pack would give 150-200 miles real world highway range. Efficiency modified with better aerodynamics and LRR tires, 250-300 miles highway... nevermind what they would do under hypermiling conditions.

These cars make excellent conversions; their biggest weakness will be mechanical reliability, as their transmissions are very weak, as are their bearings, CV joints, braking system, ect. That all can be remedied. The engine and wiring were where their worst problems stemmed from, and by going electric, you remove that set of problems! A dual master cylinder brake setup would help greatly, but also add 30 lbs or so.

I really wish a low-torque, high-revving, high voltage, affordable AC setup was available. Say, 80 kW, peak power from 4k rpm to 9k rpm, and corresponding torque, 300V operation with 280A draw... with perhaps a $7000 price tag. Metric Mind used to have a similar setup from Siemens, but they are no longer available, and the MES-DEA has such crappy customer support and is ridiculously overpriced. The big Solectria setup used for buses has good power, but it makes it at too low of rpm to be any use with regard to top speed, and that torque it produces will destroy stock Triumph GT6/Spitfire transmissions and differentials should you decide to step on it on any regular basis...


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## RupertWild (Nov 20, 2009)

I'll let you know about the rear diff and u-joints. I had a new driveshaft fab'd and the transmission is on a pallet next to the engine. I'm going to baby it for a good while, break in the re-built diffy. We shall see. I'm sure if I jump on it there will be hell to pay, but as with brakes I'm sure I can get a pumpkin that can handle it if I should need to replace the thing. I'm trying to re-use as much as possible.

Wet sanding at present. Noone told me doing a conversion meant full restoration. MAN I'm looking forward to not restoring this old girl any more and actually resuming building an electric car.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

RupertWild said:


> Wet sanding at present. Noone told me doing a conversion meant full restoration. MAN I'm looking forward to not restoring this old girl any more and actually resuming building an electric car.


Been there, done that. You'll get there eventually, and you'll have a car that will last you another 3 or 4 decades. The honks, smiles, and applause will be worth it. Keep it up!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Toecutter

My best mate had a Triumph Vitesses Mk2, and a GT6 Mk3 -
You comment about the 

_mechanical reliability, as their transmissions are very weak, as are their bearings, CV joints, braking system, ect. That all can be remedied. The engine and wiring were where their worst problems stemmed from_

The biggest issue was the awful rear suspension - are you doing anything about that?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I'm eagerly awaiting an update. A LiFePO4 Spitfire will have gasoline-like range.



Duncan said:


> Hi Toecutter
> 
> My best mate had a Triumph Vitesses Mk2, and a GT6 Mk3 -
> You comment about the
> ...


I have a topic for my conversion on this forum; that being said, I initially intend to do nothing with it until it breaks or shows signs of severe wear and tear, and then maybe upgrade it to aftermarket after(Carrera shocks, ect.). In the long term, it will be replaced, as the goal, like Rupert Wild, is a reliable daily driver made out of this car, that lasts decades. I'll need the money for that of course, especially the LiFePO4 pack to make that possible.


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