# Evnetics Solition Junior "Desaturation Error"



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi,

yesterday my Soliton Junior stopped working :-/
After breaking some kind of harder and released the break half a second after that, the car was only rolling.

Looking at the controller, I recognized that something isn't working right.
So I took a laptop and looked at the controller homepage: "Desaturation Error"
Cleared the error list, but every time I step on the paddel, the next line "Desaturation Error" appeared.

I read the manual, "short circuit" was a possible issue.
Hooked to my garage, I disconnected the output side of the soliton and started again: error list cleared, everything seems to look good, accelerate, no motor spinning, only a new error line.

So there is no short circuit on the outside, the input voltage ist 180V.
The settings are used some month (years) now, so that could not be the problem.

Opened the Soliton (no guarantee any more, bought 2013) to look at obvious damages, but everything looks good.

What could I try to make it work again?
Could you please help me troubleshoot this?

regards,
Michael


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

It's possible the hard stop moved something or tweaked something. If the controller is happy with the controller to motor wiring removed then I would start chasing problems there. Shorts, motor issues, etc...


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

No. Disconnecting the motor hasn't fixed the problem.
So the motor is not the problem, also the wiring.

I'm driving rallies with this car since six years, so such a break is not unusual for it.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Gotcha. I misunderstood your first post. I took your pointing out the fact that it was a hard stop to mean that it was unusual and might have caused a problem. It's either in the controller, the wiring, the battery, or the motor. Isolating and testing each of those would be where I would start. 

Could you please describe this process step by step so we can see what you have done to evaluate things: 



> Hooked to my garage, I disconnected the output side of the soliton and started again: error list cleared, everything seems to look good, accelerate, no motor spinning, only a new error line.


Thank you.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Sure:

- input 180V connected
- output to motor
- potentiometer connected
- 12V connected

- logged on juniors home screen 
- cleared all errors (one per try).
- disconnected 12V
- connected 12V
- waited, until green diode comes on and no red light (ready to drive)
- pulled the potentiometer (accelerator)
- immediately red light goes on
- no motor turn
- logged on juniors home screen 
- new error logged

same procedure with output screwed of (no lines connected)
same expiration

Michael


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

No one had this Problem before?
Anyone out of the old Evnetics crew here?


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Rather than trroubleshooting here, I'd work directly with Evnetics. They still fully support thier legacy product line.

There is a phone number at the top of the page on their website. I won't post it here, but its easy to spot.

http://www.evnetics.com/legacy-products/#1458228630706-5319476a-8fdd


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

brainzel said:


> No one had this Problem before?
> Anyone out of the old Evnetics crew here?


Well, I know nothing about the evnetics controller but that won't stop me from asking a few questions to see if it helps. 

Do you know what desaturation is? This is found only on IGBTs not mosfets. Desaturation is when the IGBT (big power transistor) is called upon to source so much current that it can't send quite that much current through without dropping additional voltage. Usually IGBTs have a constant voltage drop. It could be 2V, 3V, whatever. But, whether you pull 20A or 200A you get that drop. When you overcome the IGBT it starts to drop more voltage. This is desaturation. Motor controllers have circuitry to monitor the voltage drop and trigger a fault if it suddenly increases to a certain threshold (I believe usually around 7v). So, your controller is saying that there is excessive voltage drop on the IGBT when it is turned on. There are many reasons this could be. For one, the IGBT could be blown. I don't know if your controller uses one big brick or many little IGBTs but either way one or more could be cooked. Another possibility is that the desat circuitry has gone faulty. I'd suspect that this isn't quite as likely as blowing the IGBTs. That's a kind of popular controller failure, especially if you like to really step on the accelerator. You said it quit after a hard stop which still could be an IGBT or something else getting a cracked solder joint or something.

Sorry, I can't be of more help. It sounds to me like your issue is something that will need to be resolved on the bench by someone with the equipment to test the various portions and see where the fault lies.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

palmer_md said:


> Rather than trroubleshooting here, I'd work directly with Evnetics. They still fully support thier legacy product line.
> 
> There is a phone number at the top of the page on their website. I won't post it here, but its easy to spot.
> 
> http://www.evnetics.com/legacy-products/#1458228630706-5319476a-8fdd


Hi Michael,
the support form isn't working correct and the support e-mail out of the manual I had mailed to, without answer so far.
Thought there could be someone here who could help.

Michael


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

CKidder said:


> Well, I know nothing about the evnetics controller but that won't stop me from asking a few questions to see if it helps.
> 
> Do you know what desaturation is? This is found only on IGBTs not mosfets. Desaturation is when the IGBT (big power transistor) is called upon to source so much current that it can't send quite that much current through without dropping additional voltage. Usually IGBTs have a constant voltage drop. It could be 2V, 3V, whatever. But, whether you pull 20A or 200A you get that drop. When you overcome the IGBT it starts to drop more voltage. This is desaturation. Motor controllers have circuitry to monitor the voltage drop and trigger a fault if it suddenly increases to a certain threshold (I believe usually around 7v). So, your controller is saying that there is excessive voltage drop on the IGBT when it is turned on. There are many reasons this could be. For one, the IGBT could be blown. I don't know if your controller uses one big brick or many little IGBTs but either way one or more could be cooked. Another possibility is that the desat circuitry has gone faulty. I'd suspect that this isn't quite as likely as blowing the IGBTs. That's a kind of popular controller failure, especially if you like to really step on the accelerator. You said it quit after a hard stop which still could be an IGBT or something else getting a cracked solder joint or something.
> 
> Sorry, I can't be of more help. It sounds to me like your issue is something that will need to be resolved on the bench by someone with the equipment to test the various portions and see where the fault lies.


Hi Collin,
I would love to check it myself, but my knowledge isn't good enough :-/
If anyone could locate the problem I could change resistors, capacitors or IGBTs, but I couldn't point the failure :-/

Unfortunately there is no-one I could ask near by to take a look inside the controller :-/

A loosened connection I would exclude. It wasn't such a hard break and there is not so much to loosen in this controller.

So the more plausible issue I think could be a broken driver board for the IGBT or the IGBT itself is broken?.

If I would disassemble the controller, would you be able to explain a IGBT test to me?
If it's "only" the IGBT it sounds like a feasible repair.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

brainzel said:


> Hi Michael,
> the support form isn't working correct and the support e-mail out of the manual I had mailed to, without answer so far.
> Thought there could be someone here who could help.
> 
> Michael


If you tried that direct support email that is best. You could also PM Tesseract here since he seems to be here regularly. I hope you get it resolved and back on the road. Best Wishes.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

palmer_md said:


> If you tried that direct support email that is best. You could also PM Tesseract here since he seems to be here regularly. I hope you get it resolved and back on the road. Best Wishes.


Unfortunately Tesseract has switched off his PMs, at least for me ;-)
Hope he gets aware of this thread.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

brainzel said:


> Hi Collin,
> I would love to check it myself, but my knowledge isn't good enough :-/
> If anyone could locate the problem I could change resistors, capacitors or IGBTs, but I couldn't point the failure :-/
> 
> ...


Well, maybe but we're talking about a very high power controller and some of the parts are very static sensitive. Also, a lot of the testing ends up in the realm of oscilloscopes and logic analyzers and not too many people have those things laying around. If it were an IGBT brick then it is possible you could purchase a replacement and install it but you'd have to be super careful. You really can blow a $600 IGBT brick in a heartbeat with a little excess static electricity. So, if you can help it you really want Evnetics to take a look at it for you. I know that's kind of a pain being that it involves thousands of miles/kilometers of shipping and much waiting as this is not their real business anymore. But, I'm not sure I could suggest that you take the thing apart.

I hope you're able to get a hold of Evnetics. Try calling the number as someone else suggested. They are something like 6 hours behind you but if you call in the late afternoon your time they ought to be around.


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

A desat fault is very bad as the IGBT I think only can survive about 100 desat events. So, I wonder if they require a special way to clear the fault, so it won't happen again. Alternatively, if it keeps saying desat fault, I would check the driver section. The default for a disconnected collector wire is "desat fault", at least for the FOD8316 and several other desat detection chips behave that way. So, maybe the high voltage diode failed open, the current limiting resistor that's in line with the high voltage diode failed open, or something else entirely! haha


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

This is a DC controller. If your IGBT was shorted, you'd have constant full power to your motor. If your fuse isn't blown and your contactor is closed, then the IGBT isn't shorted.

You can also verify this by measuring the anti-parallel diode at the terminals with a multimeter. Set the meter to diode mode and touch the red lead to the battery negative terminal and the black lead to the motor negative terminal (this is assuming the Soliton uses an IGBT on the low side like most DC controllers). You should read around 0.3-0.5V.

You can also check the freewheeling diode in a similar way. Put the red lead on the motor negative terminal and the black lead on the motor positive terminal. The reading should be similar.

My guess is that one of two things is the cause:
1. Something is keeping the IGBT gate from turning on. This will cause a desaturation fault because the voltage across the IGBT will not fall as commanded. This could be a problem with the gate drive power supply, though most gate drive ICs have a separate detection of a power supply failure and this would show up as a different fault. It could also be blown bond wires in the IGBT package. If you read an open circuit during the IGBT diode check, this is probably the case.
2. Something in the desaturation detection circuit is open circuit. The desaturation circuit normally consists of a blocking diode and sometimes a series resistor. If the diode opens, it will cause a desat fault. If the diode shorts, it will cause the resistor to fuse which will also cause a desat fault. It could also be a bad solder joint, though I would have expected that to have shown up earlier than 6yrs of use.

Regardless, hopefully the manufacturer can support you in actually getting it repaired. You really have to know your way around these sort of circuits by feel to be able to make the repairs yourself.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

After a call and some e-mails, the Soliton will return to Florida.
Steve from Evnetics told me, that they will repair it on my costs.
Hope it won't be the worst case of about $800 plus shipping :-/
Fingers crossed!


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Any updates on this thread?

I just got the same error/shutdown with my soliton Jr.

Thanks,
Shane


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Since may 9th the controller is at evnetics and should be repaired.
Unfortunately communications are tough and the controller is not repaired until now :-/

I'm still waiting for updates with more content then:"Still not repaired. Don't know when it's done."

Very frustrating :-(

Michael


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

sorry to hear that. I just sent in an email to the support address. I'm hoping they'll respond soon.

keep me updated on your progress. I suspect I'll have to decide soon whether to send the controller to be serviced or just start looking for a new one. 

The pickings are kind of slim for new DC controllers these days too though...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Without giving too much inside information that the less-scrupulous among you will use against me/us, the main reason repair has slowed down precipitously is that our former assembly/repair tech who had been coming in a couple days a month on a subcontract basis to do repairs suddenly decided not to bother anymore. This means *I* have to diagnose/repair controllers.

Given that I argued for terminating Soliton production back in 2013, rather than let it linger on, extremely unprofitably, until March of 2015, I am none too pleased at having to deal with this nonsense now.

And yes, I turned off my PMs because too many people here messaged me for technical support (and, I should note, a disturbing number of those inquiries were covered in the manual - I marvel that more of you haven't electrocuted yourselves already...).

I will attempt to catch up on the backlog of repair work this week so please stop harassing Steve until the following week.

And if your controller has suffered a desaturation event, for the love of Bob stop operating it, you'll only increase the repair bill (damage from the first couple of desat events is usually limited to the IGBT module; after that goes the gate driver board; after that potentially everything else goes from rampant arcing inside the enclosure - bus plates, capacitors, wiring harness, main control board, contactor(s), etc.).


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

It’s unfortunate that the Soliton product was not profitable for Evnetics. I hope you find a way to continue to support this product. Perhaps opening up repairs to third parties might be worth considering?
I won't bother sending a follow-up email to the Evnetics support email address; however, I hope that I can have a chance to communicate with yourself or someone from the company about the likely cause of this failure and potential repair costs so I can make an informed decision.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> ...
> I'm still waiting for updates with more content then:"Still not repaired. Don't know when it's done."


Your controller was repaired and dyno tested today. The IGBT and gate driver board were found to be damaged and so were replaced. I don't do billing nor do I handle shipping, etc., so I can't tell you how much it will cost.




Yukon_Shane said:


> (quoting broken so doing it manually)
> It’s unfortunate that the Soliton product was not profitable for Evnetics. I hope you find a way to continue to support this product. Perhaps opening up repairs to third parties might be worth considering?




My guess is that we will keep supporting the Soliton controllers for as long as we are still in business. I doubt we will ever subcontract repair to a 3rd party (e.g., FSIP) both because the volume is so low (average of 1 per month, maybe) and it takes a significant amount of time and materials to get the repair subcontractor set up.

As for why your controller (or any controller in particular) might have died, it is rare for there to be an obvious culprit like, for example, water intrusion (as evidenced by electrolytic corrosion or even water inside the enclosure). When a desaturation error occurs despite any obvious sign of a short of in the motor circuit (including a brush-to-brush flashover [aka 'zorch']) the usual cause is thermal fatigue of the solder that attaches the semiconductor dice inside the module to the copper heat spreader. The dice, solder and heat spreader all have different coefficients of thermal expansion and thus can only take so many cycles from cold to hot to cold before tiny cracks start forming in the dice or the solder, and once those cracks reach a tipping point in size/number a rapidly cascading failure propagates through the dice.

Now, one way to prolong the MBTF (ie - mean time between failures) is to derate the voltage and/or current and/or switching frequency, but as we learned the hard way, pretty much none of you were willing to pay more money up front for heavier derating just to get a theoretical increase in product lifespan. Which is to say, all this market cared about was getting the most power for the least money; everything else was of minimal consideration...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Now, one way to prolong the MBTF (ie - mean time between failures) is to derate the voltage and/or current and/or switching frequency...


Though it's really sad to see this kind of advice* when you are driving a 1900 lbs car powered by a Soliton 1000A controller (mine died 2 time from thermal fatigue and probably 1 time from 'zorch').
Few years back Soliton 1 was the best choice for pick-up and high performance street car...

I hope that all us, beta tester, we have help you to learn and now your product are really high quality product.
Continue your good job of supporting us, it's really appreciate despite spending $ remain frustrating.

*Same advice from Steve few months ago


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Though it's really sad to see this kind of advice* when you are driving a 1900 lbs car...


Well, exactly as I predicted, what I wrote has been used against me. 

That said, you either didn't understand what I wrote or else are critically lacking in common sense. I stated that *all* power electronics will eventually fail from thermal cycling, if nothing else gets them first. Furthermore, it should not be controversial or surprising that an IGBT with a given current rating will last longer if operated at 0.8x that rating, and longer still at 0.6x, etc. The same is true of operating temperature and can be seen in most power semiconductor datasheets. But operating temperature and thermal cycling are not the same, though they are related; it is, for example, less stressful on the semiconductor dice to be operated a constant dissipation so as to maintain a constant, say, 80C (where most honest datasheets spec as the temperature for rated current) than it is to cycle back and forth between 25C and 75C.

Furthermore, the temperature range spanned during thermal cycling has an exponential effect on lifespan, so that, on average, a higher percentage of failures will occur in dice which experience 50C swings in temperature vs. 40C, etc. This is one of the main reasons I advocate so strongly for liquid cooling - it not only reduces the ultimate temperature reached at a given power level, it also reduces the swing in temperature for a thermal cycle.

Now as for the weight of the vehicle, that is a second order contributor to lifespan in that a heavier vehicle will either require more motor current to accelerate at a given rate, and/or for a longer period of time (both of which contribute to a higher final temperature of the die attach solder). However, the controller in a lighter vehicle driven hard in stop-and-go fashion will likely fail sooner than a heavier vehicle driven in a more sedate fashion and/or mostly on the highway.

Again, none of this should be controversial nor evoke feelings of sadness - it is simply a matter of physics intersecting with the economic reality of providing a high power customized electronic product for a tiny market that would just as soon use junked parts from a forklift.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the details Tess.

In my case, thermal fatigue cycle is making sense since I drive my car at ambient temperature between -30°C and +35°C.
With around hundred days of cold winter temperature in a year my Soliton probably experiment few days of -30°C to +40°C cycle...


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Again, none of this should be controversial nor evoke feelings of sadness - it is simply a matter of physics intersecting with the economic reality of providing a high power customized electronic product for a tiny market that would just as soon use junked parts from a forklift.


Yes, people are cheap. And, you're absolutely right about the physics involved and how to prolong the life of a motor controller. But, one always has to count on two things: 1: people are cheap 2: people want to squeeze as much performance as possible out of everything. These two things conspire against any hardware designer as they conflict. 

I think the poster was perhaps lamenting that they blew a controller up three times. I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to be upset by three failures - even if it might be at least partially their fault. Having the controller break *sucks* whether you caused it or not. Of course, nobody wants to believe that their hard driving ways are to blame either.

The DIY market is a tough one. I doubt too many people use forklift parts anymore. These days instead they're grabbing junkyard parts from crashed EVs (and bankruptcy auction EV stuff). Then there are people and companies that actively enable people to do this. The junkyard and fire sale stuff is cheaper than buying new and a bit easier to throw away if it breaks. Most salvage stuff is going for basically the price of the components. That's going to be tough to compete with. But, one big bonus to this situation is that OEM big name stuff has big name design behind it too. Tesla had to blow up a drive train or 1000 to get where they are. Now people abuse Teslas like crazy and you rarely hear about failures. So, using a salvage drive train from a Model S gets you all the blood sweat and tears that went into production of that system without the attendant price. I realize this isn't great for people trying to compete in the market but I'm unsure of any solution that satisfies everyone.


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## WolfTronix (Feb 8, 2016)

Tesseract said:


> My guess is that we will keep supporting the Soliton controllers for as long as we are still in business. I doubt we will ever subcontract repair to a 3rd party (e.g., FSIP) both because the volume is so low (average of 1 per month, maybe) and it takes a significant amount of time and materials to get the repair subcontractor set up.
> [/FONT][/SIZE]


I fix Solectria/Azure/Brusa controllers:
http://www.wolftronix.com/motorControllers.htm

I could add Solition to the list.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks for repairing!
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the possibility that you repair the controllers when they fail.
Otherwise I had to search for alternatives with an uncertain outcome.
Also the amount of bill is surely fair and for your knowledge time and effort too less.

But from my point of view I switched from forklift parts (Curtis1231C) to Soliton Junior to get over the issues that come along with parts which are used for things they aren't build for.
And I was willing to pay the extra money for the opportunities the soliton gave to me. Great little product!

Three years and 40.000 kilometers later I have to get it repaired while sudden death :-/
Regardless that the operation conditions are more than perfect:
daily driver, no speedruns, some few days slightly under freezing, some few days in the summer up to max 30°C, voltage at 180V, current max 480A (never seen, because batteries sag to quick), no hills, only flat terrain, water cooling with extra fans, vibration reduced build in.
I think this would annoy everybody, because I can't treat the controller any better, so I only could set up a money jar, save some money for the next fix within the next three years and hope, that you or anyone else would/could fix it again.

Beside your right arguments about "low volume parts", "no one wanted to pay more for extra testing and better parts", it is a little frustrating.

Michael


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> Beside your right arguments about "low volume parts", "no one wanted to pay more for extra testing and better parts", it is a little frustrating.


That's not at all what I said! If what I write is going to continue to be grossly misinterpreted and/or used against me then I will simply cease participating here. Understand that I do not get paid to field complaints nor even to provide technical support for Soliton controllers any more, so I am here on my own sufferance.

What I said - and please do not conflate these *general statements* as applying to your *specific* situation - is that absent any other cause, thermal fatigue will eventually kill all motor controllers. Not just Soliton controllers. It will kill your Curtis and your Tesla and your Leaf and your DIY special and whatever. They will all die someday from thermal cycling.

What I also said is that the more you derate the current and/or voltage ratings of power semiconductors the longer their life span, all other things being equal.

These are not controversial statements; they merely reflect physical reality.

We have dozens of Jr controllers deployed in airport tugs that are operated for ~20 hours a day at 96V and 500A. Aside from a few initial failures due to the software not dealing correctly with the way operators abruptly change motor direction without fully stopping first (which, btw, was the origin of the "reverse contactor" output - it inhibits passing along the signal to change motor direction until current and RPM both fall to near zero), they have been mostly trouble free for 3+ years now, and they are used all over the US and Canada. The point here is not so much how long Soliton controllers should last, rather, that sometimes there are unforeseen operating conditions that can contribute to their demise, but if we are made aware of them we can, perhaps, change the code to address them. 

That said, I'm not saying that is what is going on with Yabert's or Brainzel's controller, just that it is a possible cause *besides* bad engineering on my part, or bad assembly on our (former) technician's part, etc.

In fact, we are testing a Shiva as a plasma power supply right now and have found that our existing motor current control loop is woefully inadequate to the task; conversely, when I tested the current control loop code that was modified for powering plasma on our dyno just to see how it compared the motor RPM jumped around and so it would result in a terrible driving experience. Now, maybe there is a compromise that combines faster loop response without getting too "jerky" which can be deployed in a general code release, but see above where I said that I am no longer getting paid to provide support - much less additional development - of the Soliton controller line...


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

I did not want to upset you, perhaps it's an translation issue, but I wanted to mention the opinion of an user like me or better my view.
Certainly not to generalize your statements wrong.

I still think this is the best DC controller (beside the Soliton 1) for my application, but now I know, that I have to make provisions that I hadn't expected before.

Still thankful about the repair possibilities 
Michael


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I’m really struggling with this one. My Soliton is in need of repair that is likely to cost somewhere in the range of $700-800 plus shipping to Florida which is probably going to add up to around $1,000. Despite the fact that the controller is probably not worth much more than $1,000 anymore, that’s probably okay with me if it means my controller will run for the next 5 years but that seems an unlikely assumption to make. I’ve owned this controller for a while but between the time I’ve taken to complete my conversions and parking the car during the winter months it’s really only operated for 15-20 months total before this failure occurred. So even if I double that timeline, I still only get another 3 years before I’m looking for a new controller…
But what are my options?
a. I purchase a new zilla which is (in my opinion) a lesser controller and likely has the same lifespan
b. I purchase a used controller off someone which is a total crapshoot
c. I sell my first born child to switch over to an HPEV drive system that has an acceptable power range for my purposes (I’m not interested in driving a golf cart)
d. I pretend that I’m an engineer with the skills to reverse engineer a tesla/volt/leaf drivetrain (I know my limitations)
e. I ignore my ethics/pride and take on a false identify in an effort to purchase an overpriced AC system from the fat man (I tried to purchase some batteries from him about a year ago and he was pretty explicit in telling me that he wasn’t interested in my business as I lived too far away and he wasn’t interested in wasting his time trying to figure out shipping). 
Probably the smart choice would be for me to find a new hobby. Unfortunately I’m kind of hooked on this one…
Any suggestions?


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> But what are my options?
> a. I purchase a new zilla which is (in my opinion) a lesser controller and likely has the same lifespan
> b. I purchase a used controller off someone which is a total crapshoot
> c. I sell my first born child to switch over to an HPEV drive system that has an acceptable power range for my purposes (I’m not interested in driving a golf cart)
> ...


a. Yes, I suspect you're right. I'd say that the Soliton line is better than the Zilla

b. Also correct. Who knows what that other person did to their controller before you bought it?

c. They do sell a range of systems and their offerings are more in line with the sort of nominal voltage you'd see on a DC system. I don't remember HPEV being that terribly expensive.

d. This stuff has already been done. At least the Tesla is rolling for sure. I believe I can already do it to a Leaf drivetrain but I've been too busy to get to it. The volt drivetrain might be a little tougher since it has an ICE integrated but someone could probably take just the electric drive part and use it. I've never tried. Plenty of other systems have been figured out - Coda UQM for instance.

e. I know he's not always super popular but generally the prices aren't terrible. AC systems are really over priced in general and so being able to buy a whole system for $6500 and get 100kw is actually pretty reasonable. Buying a UQM 100kw drive system from UQM directly is more like $20-$25k if they'll sell it to you at all.

Your best bet is probably to stick with the Soliton you have and use it until something happens. Then, get it repaired. If nothing else, I will freely vouch for the skill set and integrity of WolfTronix.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I just repaired a 20 (maybe 21) year old Siemens Simovert 6SV1 Long inverter. The current sensors failed which cause one phase to just keep pumping out current till it exploded the IGBT's and damaged the driver board.

The other 4 IGBT's are still going strong, and with 3 new current sensors, 2 new IGBT's, 4 transistors, 2 resistors and 2 diodes it's working good as new now. How much life is left? Who knows!

As a Siemens product I'm sure it's over designed, over built, and arguably over priced.

I don't know anyone anymore who hasn't had their Soliton xx die at least once (me included).

Perhaps Evnetics should have said early on with more authority that "You are all stupid! You want power and a lower price in what will inevitably result in a shorter life span". Or simply taken the high road and lowered the power/voltage, and or just added more current/voltage capacity in using different IGBT's increasing the size and cost of the controller. (and let us all whine about the price or power or colour or size, there's always something people will whine about!) I personally would have been happy to pay 25-33% more for a 10-20 year controller instead of a 2-5(?) year controller. It's a little late in the game to say that now, but hind sight is 20/20 as they say.

I haven't always agreed with Tesseract in the past, but we should all be happy that he's even here replying to this thread and providing that little bit of extra information that he doesn't have to!

FYI CKidder, Yukon_Shane's controller is already dead, which is where the tough decision comes from. When I faced that same decision I jumped ship (had the Soliton repaired and immediately sold it) and went with a Siemens/DMOC.

Having dealt with him in the past I'd also say Evnetics would do well to set up WolfTronix to repair controllers. With parts and some documentation I could easily do it as well.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Yukon_Shane said:


> a.b.c.d.e....Any suggestions?


Maybe f. http://www.zeva.com.au/
I was in the same situation than you and I've paid for Soliton repair. In my case, because of my Volt battery, the choice was 90v system with Zeva or 180v system with Soliton 1... maybe i'm cheap, but I think I'm addict to torque 
Anyway, time will say if I've done the right choice.

If you go with Soliton repair be sure to greatly reduce the value of the controller when it will come back from the US. I've pay an extra 200$ of customs duty because it's wasn't clear that the controller come back from repair.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Zeva is interesting but the low voltage wouldn't work for me. My pack is up to 200V now and I'm not really interested in decreasing that. Plus it's not liquid cooled which makes me dubious that it would last very long.

I think the "Paul and Sabrina's" open source AC/DC controller has some potential but so far the documentation is non existent and I don't have the skills to figure it out on my own. 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...eap-3-phase-inverter-ac-controller-10839.html 

Zilla might be my best bet.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Yabert said:


> If you go with Soliton repair be sure to greatly reduce the value of the controller when it will come back from the US. I've pay an extra 200$ of customs duty because it's wasn't clear that the controller come back from repair.


I've also payed 170,- Euros (190 USD) taxes on top of the repair bill.

By the way, a hint for soliton customers in germany:
Vor dem Versand muss beim Zoll eine Ausfuhr des Controllers angemeldet werden, damit die Zollbeamten bei der Einfuhr nicht den vollen Warenwert für die Bemessung von Zoll und Steuern ansetzen, sondern nur den Reparaturwert.
ZOLLEU: 2,1% + EUST: 19%

Michael


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

I had the same problem recently with my soliton jr. Breaking down in rush hour with no shoulder is not fun. 

Anyhoo, I was able to source and replace the IGBT gate in my soliton jr. PM if you have any questions. I can do a DIY if there is enough interest (and if it doesn't land me a court case).


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> Anyhoo, I was able to source and replace the IGBT gate in my soliton jr.... I can do a DIY if there is enough interest.


Wow, awesome! Please share details and pictures.
I guess many of us will appreciate your explanation about the repair because any Soliton owners will end with a similar problem if they use their controller regularly. 

Personnally, since six years my Soliton 1 has problem each two years... so next crach is in few months


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

How many Zilla controllers have failed? Mine just keeps on working but the car is light and I keep it turned way down to protect the small battery pack (Zilla Z1k-HV for a 39 cell pack of 60 amp hour LiFePO4 cells.) You must have water cooling, it has no fins and no fan. You will have to purchase a main contactor. They are in a lot of performance electric cars. The controller is still being made by Manzanita Micro and supported by them if needed.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

EVfun said:


> Mine just keeps on working but the car is light and I keep it turned way down to protect the small battery pack (Zilla Z1k-HV for a 39 cell pack of 60 amp hour LiFePO4 cells.) You must have water cooling, .


I think it's the thing in common with most/all of this thread is we have very light cars. Water cooling is a must for any modern controller. +40C is common in the continental US and many parts of Canada, so the IGBT needs all the cooling it can get.

I can't say mine was "turned way down," I wanted enough performance to not hinder traffic... but I surely didn't "turn it to 11".


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Exactly what does a desaturization event look or feel like when driving? I dont have all the gauges and software installed to see what the controller is doing except for the error light.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

In my case, I was waiting at a light and when the light turned green, I pressed on the accelerator (normally), and the car didn't move.

I have a dashboard light connected to the ERR post of the soliton, which turned off (in my case meaning controller has an issue).

The error using the controller webpage is "IGBT desaturation error. "


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

Normally desaturation just means there was around 7v across the IGBT when it was ON, which would happen under very high current events. But since it can detect it in just a couple microseconds, it's a good chance that you would not feel anything. 2000amp for 0.000001 second doesn't have time to do too much.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> I think it's the thing in common with most/all of this thread is we have very light cars. Water cooling is a must for any modern controller. +40C is common in the continental US and many parts of Canada, so the IGBT needs all the cooling it can get.
> 
> I can't say mine was "turned way down," I wanted enough performance to not hinder traffic... but I surely didn't "turn it to 11".


I think we have a different definition of "light." My street legal electric Berry Mini-T weighs about 1200 lb. 195 lb. of that is 39, 60 amp hour Thundersky cells. My controller is set to 360 max battery amps and 720 max motor amps (1000 amp max controller.) I have about 40 horsepower on tap, which performs a lot better in a '64 beach buggy than the stock 1200 did in the car when it was a Bug. The controller could make somewhere around 200 horsepower if the voltage and current where maxed out.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

This is awesome news MK4!

The communications I had with evnetics seemed to suggest that there were no alternative repair solutions other then to send to Florida for an expensive repair. 

Any details you can offer on the repair would be incredibly useful to us all. A diy guide would be amazing. 

At this point my soliton jr. (and car) is basically a boat anchor so trying to fix it myself can't really hurt anything. 

Honestly, even for those who would prefer to send their controller back to the manufacturer, I don't get the impression that Evnetics is that interested in continuing to service these controllers and will likely pull the plug at some point. The communications I had with them were pretty brisk and the posts from Tesseract on the forum haven't been terribly positive either. 

I can't see them suing anyone for trying to help fix a product that they don't seem that interested in fixing themselves.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

mk4gti said:


> In my case, I was waiting at a light and when the light turned green, I pressed on the accelerator (normally), and the car didn't move.
> 
> I have a dashboard light connected to the ERR post of the soliton, which turned off (in my case meaning controller has an issue).
> 
> The error using the controller webpage is "IGBT desaturation error. "


Very similar experience for me. I stopped at a red light, when it turned green I put my foot into the accelerator (probably 3/4 throttle) and nothing happened but a desaturation error indication. Turning the ignition off and on will start up the controller and close the contactor but as soon as I put my foot on the throttle at all the contactor opens and I get a desat error again. 

light car and derating the controller is likely the key to keeping a controller alive for a long time but the thing that bugs me is that this controller was advertised as being bullet proof having been significantly derated by the manufacturer. Had I known that it couldn't handle it's rated 600 amps on a regular basis I would have saved my money and bought a larger controller....


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Might be a later production assembly issue. I think I have an early serial number sol1, probably different model IGBT modules. I have settings at 1000 motor amps, 600 battery amps and generally hit 500 motor amps on killer hill every morning and until recently had only air cooling. I seem to be having thermal issues with the main computer chip ram, and there were a couple of vibration fatigue wire disconnects when I had it apart last week. I could have fried one of the power modules, but I don't have the symptoms.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Internal picture of Sol1 showing brain board.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Internal on my Soliton 1 when it died last year...
Hope to learn enough how to repair it before the next fatal event


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Hmmm looks like product revisions unless you added the wire wraps. That would solve the vibration fatigue I experienced.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

I have finished writing a IGBT replacement procedure for the Soliton JR.

PM me your email and will send it to you. 

Here is a picture of a blown up IGBT.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

mk4gti said:


> I have finished writing a IGBT replacement procedure for the Soliton JR.
> 
> PM me your email and will send it to you.
> ...


Why not post it?

Make it an 'open source' project...


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

I think he's trying to avoid any potential issues with Evnetics. I don't think they're terribly interested in people pocking around in their controller. 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure those of us who purchase these controllers have much choice.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Since they arent the people who sold it to me, I wonder exactly what their recourse would be. I didn't see anything in their manual phrohibiting modifications.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Interesting, an arduino based controller. Never would have thought.


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## evnz (Jul 24, 2010)

just had this happen and it had blown the 400 amp fuse is it the IBG ? if so how do I get it fixed ? I live to far to send it to the usa to get fixed
thanks
owen


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The Soliton controllers do use an AVR, but they most definitely are not Arduinos...

As for opening up your controllers and poking them with a stick, that was only an issue when Evnetics was in business. If you did that while Evnetics was still in business then you got absolutely no warranty or technical support. That's not really a factor anymore, now is it?

I'm not going to air a bunch of dirty laundry here, but let's just say I accepted a 30% stake in Evnetics in lieu of being paid upfront for my product development efforts and you can imagine how well that worked out for me.

Anyway, I did uncover a potentially fatal bug in the software motor current regulation loop not too long before Seb decided to call it quits. This was a result of demonstrating a Soliton controller as a plasma power source (for incinerating waste) and I noticed the controller would tend to overshoot the requested current by a substantial margin for 100-200ms every time the arc re-struck. I'm not sure this would be an issue in a car, and it sure wouldn't be noticeable by the driver (or on our dyno) but it was the best explanation for otherwise unexplained IGBT failures.

Unfortunately, I was unable to get our itinerant programmer to fix the bug in code - probably because he also didn't get paid what he was promised - so I designed a hardware based solution; essentially hanging a fixed current regulation loop on the PWM output going to the IGBT. This loop operates independently to limit current to around 115-120% of the maximum for that controller model and is an epic kludge because the current feedback signal varies quite a bit from controller to controller (hence why the current sensor needs to be calibrated). In other words, this was not exactly a production friendly solution, but if it stopped IGBTs from failing then I would know for sure that the bug in the code was at fault.

I paid for the new boards out of pocket and was about to submit my receipts for reimbursement when Seb sent out the group email saying he decided to shut down Evnetics and so long, thanks for all the fish.

So I now have a pile of new revision main control boards and some parts to populate them along with a few SJr IGBT modules and gate driver boards (nothing for S1s at the moment). I'm not really set up to do full scale repairs at my home, but I can provide some assistance, replacement boards and such for a nominal fee.

I don't have a complete copy of the current Soliton source code, however. I believe I have an older versions, but as I have a minimal understanding of C I don't know if it works or can be compiled or what. I am definitely open to working with someone knowledgeable on fixing the actual problem in the current regulation loop but understand that this will have to be a side project because, well... Evnetics never paid well.

Shameless plug: I have an SJr for sale in the classifieds here which has the new hardware revision.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The Soliton controllers do use an AVR, but they most definitely are not Arduinos...
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I'm still a bit shocked to hear that it uses an AVR processor as people usually don't. STM32 or dsPIC are a lot more common. But, sure, I don't see why not. It's not like you had to do iFOC or anything. 

What you're describing sort of sounds like an improperly tuned PID loop, perhaps integral wind up. The tricky part is that it's, of course, tough to know whether this same overshoot happens in a car without actually measuring current very finely on a real car. It's possible that the differing current profile for plasma causes an oddity that you wouldn't see on a car. After all, motors have mass and inductance and those two things smooth out and delay response to changing PWM. A plasma beam is practically a short through an air gap and has basically no inductance (that I'm aware of) or mass so it seems like the way the controller responds to current changes would be a bit different. This could be an interesting one to fully test.

I'm imagining that you're not at liberty to just plain open source the code and let the community maintain it in the future. But, if you want someone to look at it I can do so. I do have AVR development hardware and software and experience with AVR development. What I do not have is a Soliton Jr but I could at least tell you whether what you have has a chance of compiling and whether it looks complete.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CKidder said:


> I'm still a bit shocked to hear that it uses an AVR processor as people usually don't. STM32 or dsPIC are a lot more common. But, sure, I don't see why not. It's not like you had to do iFOC or anything.


Keep in mind this was designed in 2008... But, yes, the programmer did struggle quite a bit to pack in all of the features along the way. I did use a Cortex-M4 for the locomotive drive system (designed in 2013).



CKidder said:


> What you're describing sort of sounds like an improperly tuned PID loop, perhaps integral wind up.


Yes it does, except I specifically requested that a hysteretic loop with variable hysteresis bands (to allow for constant frequency operation) be used. Hysteretic controllers don't require any tuning and have the fastest response time as well. 



CKidder said:


> A plasma beam is practically a short through an air gap and has basically no inductance (that I'm aware of) or mass so it seems like the way the controller responds to current changes would be a bit different.


Plasma is, indeed, nearly a short circuit (arc voltage was held in the range of 40 - 80V) but there was plenty of inductance in series with it (around 750uH rated for 3000A continuous). 



CKidder said:


> I'm imagining that you're not at liberty to just plain open source the code and let the community maintain it in the future. But, if you want someone to look at it I can do so. I do have AVR development hardware and software and experience with AVR development. What I do not have is a Soliton Jr but I could at least tell you whether what you have has a chance of compiling and whether it looks complete.


I'm not sure what I can or cannot do about the code, but I would like to eventually release it into the public domain (along with the schematics, et al.) Seb is still holding out some (woefully misguided) hope that he'll be able to sell our IP to someone else and I am (also woefully misguided) going along with that for now. I'll take you up on your offer, though. Expect a PM with my email address shortly.


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## LouieWasHere (Oct 14, 2017)

hi Tess and everybody,
Tess you said you have some replacement igbt's and driver boards and a updated control board I would very much would like to get prices for my SolJr
here's couple pic of a blown R4 resistor on the driver board.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

Just to chime in again, after 40xx km after replacing my IGBT, the car is acting up again. Perhaps it's wise to stock up on IGBTs while they still make them.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

I'd replace all three of those resistors, since they are all in parallel and would have seen the same current initially. Maybe R4 failed low, and hence took all the current, and protected the other two.

But they are so cheap (around a cent each), why not replace them all? You can guess that all three were 2.4Ω, and they look to be 1206 (imperial) size (check with calipers). These are a standard part; if that's all you need replaced, you can buy these at any electronics supplier (Mouser, Digi-Key, etc).


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## LouieWasHere (Oct 14, 2017)

yes I would defiantly replace all three I havent broke the whole thing down yet to see if theres any other damage


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LouieWasHere said:


> hi Tess and everybody,
> Tess you said you have some replacement igbt's and driver boards and a updated control board I would very much would like to get prices for my SolJr
> here's couple pic of a blown R4 resistor on the driver board.


$250 + shipping (default is USPS Priority Mail - Small Flat Rate Box) for the Soliton Jr IGBT module and driver board. Send me a PM if interested.

The new main control boards have several components and firmware calibration values that need to be set on an individual basis so you'd have to send the controller to me. I'm still trying to figure out a reasonable price for that service as I haven't totaled up all the labor involved (board assembly, opening up the controller to do the replacement, calibration, etc.).


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## LouieWasHere (Oct 14, 2017)

sounds great Tess, I was blocked from PM you so I'm on here.
give me couple weeks to get the money up for the igbt and driver and by then you might have something worked up for the control board install, but i would want to keep my old control board for tinkering though 

thank you Louie....


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## klikhier (Feb 11, 2018)

It's been a while since anyone posted in this thread, but I'm gonna try anyways. 

Last weekend I managed to make the stupid mistake to connect a Solition 1 backwards: battery terminals to the motor and motor terminals to the battery pack. The motor ran instantly, shortly.

Now when I startup the Solition (connected correctly this time) it gives an precharge error, no pack voltage (even when pack voltage is present). The main board seemed damaged on the HV-end, but everything looks fine when checking. We have changed the two resistors and the small white relay seems to work fine.

Any pointers on what can be damaged and/or where to get a main board replacement? I've already PM'ed Tesseract, hope he can help


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## Gigawatts (Aug 8, 2013)

Maybe the internal contactor died/blew. I had EVNetics replace the internal contactor on my Jr. after I was getting the same error; precharge error, no pack voltage (even when pack voltage is present).


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