# Triggering PowerSteering on turns....hmmm



## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Remembering the time when small cars didn't have power steering, and the then-old trucks didn't either (just a huge steering wheel that you had to turn 10 times) I think I might have a simpler solution for you.

Only use power steering in the parking lot.

Modern power steering really doesn't do much above 30 mph. The feedback they give you intentionally is about the same as the resistance at that speed.

So I would start by having a switch on the dash for the power steering. If you're doing low-speed maneuvering then turn it on. If you are on the street, turn it off. Generally, even corners are no big deal with manual steering. You usually know where you need to turn and set yourself up for it before you stop completely.


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## clone477 (Sep 21, 2008)

I totally agree with what you said, its not really even needed while driving, usually only in parking situations, but I'm thining in case you need to make sudden manuevers, like in an emergency. You do make a good point about how the manual steering might just work fine for that. Im just cant forget about the older cars that were so difficult to turn?? I will see what manual steering feels like first, and go from there.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hello clone477.

As an option you should refer to the wiki. There is an entry done by Dimitri on using the MR2 power steering pump.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19505

The MR2 pump actually will turn slower as demand decrease. If you can connect it to your car's VSS ( vehicule speed sensor ) it should shut down entirely at higher speeds.

If you want to use some other pump, I once read a thread, can't remember who, were the guy used a magnet mounted on the steering collumn and two reed switches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_switch

to power the pump at those steering angles. Or perhaps it's two magnets and one reed switch. Well you get the option anyway.

Hope those help, take care,

DP


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

Saturn used some kind of sensor on the steering column that senses steering speed to regulate the power steering pump . J.W.


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## Tubularfab (Sep 25, 2008)

certain mazda rx7's had switches in the speedometer to open a bypass solenoid and kill the power steering above a certain speed. You really do t need it as much when you're moving unless its a front heavy beast like an f350 diesel.


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## clone477 (Sep 21, 2008)

Thanks for the replys,
e cunuck, thats much simplier with the reed switch and magnet, I used to use those to secretly unlook the door to my rides, forgot all about them. That seem to be the way to go. I didt know the toyotas were variable, so how does the control work?? You couldnt just wire it to the VVS.


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## clone477 (Sep 21, 2008)

DP, sorry, Im reading the link you posted and it oulines with a wirring diagram, thanks.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. The numbers I've seen indicates that the power steering uses something like 15 Amperes at 12 Volt, which is 180 Watt. Compare that to the main motor that will use a few kW when cruising...

If you still worry about the drain, hook the power steering up to the gear box so it's only active in reverse and first gear. We drove an old Volvo 740 without power steering for a month when the belt to the servo pump was taken off because the system leaked too much for it's own good and apart from when parking it performed OK without any pressure in the system. You'll be fine, I promise.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Check with your local parts store and see if a manual steering gear box is available for your vehicle. That's what I did to mine and you can turn it just the same as power steering, even sitting still. 

This eliminates the steering pump weight and power drain etc. and is what I did with my S10. Works like a champ and takes less than an hour to change!

Here's my project link. http://www.evalbum.com/1860 
I thought I had a photo of the gearbox but it's not there. Not a big deal to do though if you can get one and have access to it easily like the S10 does.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

being a certified GEEZER: 

what made the old manual steering stuff work was HUGE steering wheels, usually 12 to 15 inch diameters and many many turns lock to lock. the new stuff has relatively tiny wheels for styling and ergonomics purposes.

I used to have a 1/2 ton drudge van without PS that had really wide tires and about 2000 lbs over the front wheels. My skinny wife drove that all over LA no problem AFTER she developed better arm muscles.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> being a certified GEEZER:
> 
> what made the old manual steering stuff work was HUGE steering wheels, usually 12 to 15 inch diameters and many many turns lock to lock. the new stuff has relatively tiny wheels for styling and ergonomics purposes.
> 
> I used to have a 1/2 ton drudge van without PS that had really wide tires and about 2000 lbs over the front wheels. My skinny wife drove that all over LA no problem AFTER she developed better arm muscles.



I think mine has three and a half complete turns. It turned with a finger without the motor/trans in place. Now with them installed it isn't much different. My first new truck was an 86 Mazda B2000 (wish I had another one to convert) and I noticed it didn't have PS when I was looking at it. The salesman assured me I could hardly notice the difference and I didn't. The steering wheel wasn't huge either, neither is my S10.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

From a safety standpoint, I don't think that a system that controls the pwr steering pump with a signal from the movement of the steering box/rack is very wise. If you wrench the steering wheel to avoid _(fill in the blank)_ the delay in the startup of the pump will ASSIST you in oversteering and possibly starting the "dance of death" down the highway. 

I once owned a '68 Cougar with power assist steering. It had an hydraulic cylinder controlled by a valve on the steering linkage. The tiniest bit of play in the linkage or valve made for steering that moved in fits and starts. Even when working perfectly, there was absolutely no road feel. I felt much safer in my '63 Merc with sloppy manual steering.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

If I might chime in here regarding "on demand" power steering...

I've had a number of experiences where power steering was needed suddenly and it didn't deliver. The first was in high school, where my girlfriend's mom had a station wagon that turned out to be low on PS fluid. I was asked to drive it and see if it "seemed ok". It drove fine in a straight line, but when you pulled into the left turn lane and went to swing the wheel for that 90 degree turn, suddenly it was like there was *no* power steering. The car wanted to go into oncoming traffic, rather than complete the turn. Very scary.

The other was with my 1992 Mazda Protege. I was leaving the parking lot at work for lunch just as another coworker was returning. He was in a manual steering VW Rabbit, and we were headed toward each other in the "chicken" position. He swung the wheel back and forth when approaching, in such a way that the car swayed in a wild and comical manner. (Rabbits were pretty decent handling cars) I tried the same, and the power steering in my Protege just didn't have the beef to turn like that without the engine being really revved up. The effect was again like suddenly having no power steering. I aborted the manoeuvre, straightened it right up, and went to change my pants.

My previous car had been a 1981 Jetta, which also had manual steering. It was a very light car, and very crisp when snapping it into a parking space when in a hurry. Not so with the Protege - if you're coming up on a sudden snap of the steering wheel, you need to slow down, rev up, or both.

Now put yourself on a residential street, doing between 25 and 30 mph (as most people do). Suddenly a kid runs out in the street chasing a ball, or perhaps the kid you're passing on a bicycle swerves a bit in front of you. If you have an "on demand" power steering system, I sure hope there is no lag time before it kicks in.

Something to think about. YMMV, but I've had nightmares that involve accidents between car and child.

-Mark


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I had some scary reservations and thoughts  about some things I have read in the previous posts and wanted to put in some warnings.

Cars with power steering have a different gear ratio in their steering boxes, cars without power steering take many more turns of the steering wheel to turn the front wheels the same amount. Some have completly different geometry in the linkage and arms. Mixing this stuff up can be dangerous.

If you plan on converting a car with power steering and put a lot of battery weight in the front as well, without re-powering the steering system, you are courting possible severe consiquences. If you do not want power steering, find out if that vehicle model was available without power steering. If it was, find a manual box and swap it out, note my information about different steering arms above.

If manual steering was not available, look into replacing the power steering box/system with an electric assist steering column from a wrecked newer car. Another possibility is look into the hot rod community, There is a lot of power steering removal going on and they have a lot of resources.

The reed switch and magnets idea seems good at first, but I don't think I would want a sudden decrease in steering effort after I had put some mussle in starting the turn (could = massive overturning). The other end of that is what happens when you make full circle of the steering wheel and get back to the pump off position.

Just remember as in Wirecutter's post a sudden increase or decrease in power steering could kill you. And un powered poewere streering could as well.

The few amps you might expend re-powering your power steering might prevent dangerous consequences.

Be cautious
Think things through
Stay alive
Jim


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm doing what others have done. Changing to a manual box isn't going to cause dire consequences. My steering wheel goes about 3 turns from one extreme to another. Check yours with it's power steering. It may only be two turns but that's not a big deal. It's not like you'll turn the wheel and the car doesn't follow. Re the battery weight. My engine weighed about 450 pounds I estimated and I'll only have two additional batteries under the hood. I'm concerned that the front will lift up because of the loss of weight.


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## clone477 (Sep 21, 2008)

You guys are absolutly right, Im just going to use a pump and system made for powersteering, like the MR2, safest way to go. Great discussion though.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

Make sure that it doesn't turn on with the wheel turned too far, or the fuse will blow from the load. It needs to be turned on at the neutral position. This may be why they don't shut off at spee more often.


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Hi guys.

After reading all the inputs. I think that on demand power steering triggered by the steerring wheel is probably bad. Potentially dangerous.

The power steering should be manual or as close to what the car was designed to use. In my case that will be the MR2 PS pump.


Be safe,

DP


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

I just completed my Ranger and I have the PS with no pump and the hose looped back. It a bear to turn at slow speed. Although it is relatively easy at highway speed I am very uncomfortable because I think in an emergency I could not correct quickly enough. My morning commute is on a narrow two lane through deer country. If a deer jumped out in front of me I would have little chance of avoiding it. Because of this I am going to install PS. Right now I plan to connect the pump to the front motor shaft. I have the pump mount in place and need to get the proper pulleys. The original PS pulley has six grooves so I have to find a six groove pulley for the motor or find a single groove pulley for the pump. Any suggestions? Thanks, Tom


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## e_canuck (May 8, 2008)

Tom W said:


> I just completed my Ranger and I have the PS with no pump and the hose looped back. It a bear to turn at slow speed. Although it is relatively easy at highway speed I am very uncomfortable because I think in an emergency I could not correct quickly enough. My morning commute is on a narrow two lane through deer country. If a deer jumped out in front of me I would have little chance of avoiding it. Because of this I am going to install PS. Right now I plan to connect the pump to the front motor shaft. I have the pump mount in place and need to get the proper pulleys. The original PS pulley has six grooves so I have to find a six groove pulley for the motor or find a single groove pulley for the pump. Any suggestions? Thanks, Tom


Hi Tom W.

Your setup mean you will have the pump running only with the motor turning. I am not shure I see how that will workout.

I have a similar problem with my A/C pump. I am thinking of using the original pulley from the ICE. Once I have the pulley in hand I will know what I can do with it. Either have a bushing machined or bolt it to a sproket that fit the shaft.

DP


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## Tom W (Jun 9, 2008)

You are right DP, it will not work if the motor is not turning. The most important aspect is the emergency situation. I don't think the slow speed will be a big problem as long as it works above 5 mph. I'm sure others have this configuration, maybe some of them will comment.
Tom


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