# Experience w/Paul & Sabrina's Controller



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I built two of Paul's 500 amp units and I'm currently using his 1600 amp unit

500 amp unit
The kit and instructions are superb - I did manage to blow my first one up but as this was the first electronic thing I had ever built my learning curve was very steep - and I should not have left it open in a dirty garage for 9 months!

The second one was much easier and worked fine 

Then I got one of Paul's 1600 amp 400 volt units
It's been working well - Paul has made a few software changes for me 

Very pleased with both of them - work well, very cheap, I learned a ton - and Paul is very helpful


----------



## gabtrac (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi Duncan,

Thank you for your reply.

I've been reading through the DIY for years now and have finally found the right project to "start" my EV adventures.
I have a 38 volt DC forklift pump motor that should work for an ATV conversion.
I've been advised that I need a controller rated at 150 to 175 Amps for an hour and 400 to 500 Amps for 1 minute. 
Fine - and I've been looking at various off the shelf options.
BUT, when I discovered the P&S 's controllers it seemed like they were more versatile for voltage input. As in, I can use it for a larger motor project at some later date.
I'm also trying to figure out what other parts I'll need to go with the P&S controller.

What was your first conversion project?

Thanks again.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi

This is my "Project"

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

I'm putting 1200 amps and 340v to a 48v 200 amp forklift motor

It did die on me at the drag races back in March - but I have acquired a replacement! which is now in the car - final re-assembly and back on the road today (I hope)


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> ... It did die on me at the drag races back in March - but I have acquired a replacement! which is now in the car - final re-assembly and back on the road today (I hope)


Just to clarify for gabtrac - it is the motor in Duncan's car which died, not the controller. And the car is custom-built (with Subaru suspension parts), rather than a conversion of a production car.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi,

This is a great thread for me to keep in touch as I have recently got two P&S DC Control Boards, and I'm slowly doing a Chevy S-10 Conversion and I will be happy to share my P&S related stuff here, and I'd love to see what others are doing... so thanks and please do keep it coming. During my dialog with Paul he was very helpful and he did offer lots of relevant info and recommendations on compatible parts such as the throttle, links to IGBT's etc. which I would be happy to share if anyone is interested.

cheers!
-Ocean


----------



## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

Paul is still active on ecomodder.com. http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...erter-ac-controller-10839-318.html#post560622

Through the years his controller(s) evolved from DC, to AC 3 phase, to universal DC/AC, all with power stages. 
The controllers are a good representation of the progress in the ereas of EVs, electronics and microcontrollers. 
His latest version is a "logic board" only for the Leaf inverter+motor. 
As can be seen in the posts following the post in the link above.

Really great stuff. I have read a lot of the posts on ecomodder (not all). 
He did get a lot of support from "expert engineers" and other contributors.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

The difficulty I'm having is that there's never an overview of these projects telling you what's going on. If you have followed all 7000 posts of the discussion over the years you'd know, but there's never a summary and "where we are now".

Like, this started as the OpenRevolt project, and there's still a wiki for that, but it hasn't been updated in ages and there's no files available. There's no one that tells you that it kinda switched over to the P&S site and that it's not as open anymore. Or that there are old versions with errors in them, that you'd never get told unless you asked the right person. There was never a wrapup posted that, this is X and X works this way.

Paul's said stuff like "Oh we lost those files 8 years ago, there are no more boards like that" etc. Which is fine, it's just, unless you stumble across those specific posts, you don't even know what you don't know.

I would like to build a simple DC controller, but I can't find decent documentation on any controller that was at any stage of 'This now works." Only "Here was a revision as we were working on things".

Just my two cents. I'm not saying anyone owes me anything (they don't), I'm just lamenting that, from someone who wants to take advantage of this open source project (kinda the point of having one?), it doesn't feel accessible to me. Unless, it seems, I was capable of engineering it myself, which defeats the purpose.


----------



## gabtrac (Jun 23, 2015)

Ok!
Thanks to all of you.

First - Ocean - I would be very interested in anything you could share. My next project (if I ever get through this one) will be an S-10.

DUNCAN!!!
Amazing - you're out of my league, but I'll be giving it the old college try.
I too am building a house. Seems like I'm just a little behind you in my timing.

Ok, so my first question of many to come - how difficult is it to program the P&S and what hardware do I require?

I'm not sure if mentioned that I've been lurking all over this site learning as much as I can for a number of years now. The problem is, I can't remember half of what I've learned...
Please bear with me.
Thanks.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Re-House
Have you designed it yet?
If not I can give you my tuppence worth

Reprogramming the P & S 
For me that is the most scary and awkward part!
So I kept mine as simple as possible!

You will have an issue if you build one of the earlier units -
(1) There is the base level programing - I skipped this by buying a chip that Paul had already done
(2) the final programing - can't be too hard because I managed - BUT you may need an old machine with XP on it

Overall the most frightening part of making your own controller is programing it - but Paul has been incredibly helpful


----------



## gabtrac (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks Duncan,

The reason I asked about the programming is that I'm a Mac guy. Regular PC stuff is way off my radar so even the simplest of maneuvers is complicated...
I have an old PC laptop that I used to program my first drone, but it wasn't pretty.

I designed the house. Plans and permits all done. Just now coming out of the ground.
The house is why my entries will be slow to come.


----------



## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

Programming issues with microcontrollers for a DC traction motor?

Well, in that case I've got good news for you.

DC traction motors have been used for propulsion for decades without the aid of microcontrollers.

Although Paul has done a splendid job with his controller board, it is still basically a buck regulator.

There are a lot of good ASIC buck regulators available, for instance the LM2694 that I'm using in the buck stage of my charger design.
It has hysteretic control, which is ideal for DIY No programming needed.

But it does run at a frequency that is probably too high for a 144V/500A power stage.
But who knows, I haven't done the math for modern IXYS mosfets and schottky diodes and it might very well be possible to lower the frequency enough.


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

I have been using my open revolt controller since Sept. 09. My conversion is an 87 Ford ranger. There has been no problems with the controller. 

Programming was done on a parallel port programmer I made. Changing the program can be done with RTD Explorer with a USB to serial cable adapter.
Even with windows10.

I still have schematic and BOM.

Alvin


----------



## gabtrac (Jun 23, 2015)

Thanks Alvin, can you provide more details 
rerogramming was done on a parallel port programmer I made. Changing the program can be done with RTD Explorer...

Cheers


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

The RTD Explorer is a program to set the parameters of the controller.

You can load the controller software from there if it has been programmed before. I am not sure if it will do it on a new chip.

It can be done from the parallel programmer.

Here is the link for RTD.

Here is another link to the controller.


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Heck,

I’m looking to buy one of these controllers


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff is right that the documentation hasn't been great. I never knew how to make changes to the Wiki, and then the person who was storing the files quit storing them. I have been so busy the last couple years with 2 full time jobs, but now as of today I am unemployed (in greenland!) , so I hope in the next couple months to be really improving the documentation (in between looking for a new job haha). There is a new DC control/driver board that I had made that will be here in about 4 days. If anybody wants the software and whatever else for it, they are welcome to it. the same goes for the AC control/driver board. You are welcome to the most recent files. Since I'm a little "website design" challenged, I just email it to people when they ask for it. My email is [email protected].

Here's a video of someone who got my new DC board (I ordered a couple and assembled them to make sure it was all good before getting a batch done):
https://blackfamily-my.sharepoint.c...ct&slrid=78ef629e-d0e2-5000-8f80-7375769e162b


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

MPaulHolmes said:


> MattsAwesomeStuff is right that the documentation hasn't been great. I never knew how to make changes to the Wiki, and then the person who was storing the files quit storing them. I have been so busy the last couple years with 2 full time jobs, but now as of today I am unemployed (in greenland!) , so I hope in the next couple months to be really improving the documentation (in
> between looking for a new job haha). There is a new DC control/driver board that I had made that will be here in about 4 days. If anybody wants the software and whatever else for it, they are welcome to it. the same goes for the AC control/driver board. You are welcome to the most recent files. Since I'm a little "website design" challenged, I just email it to people when they ask for it. My email is [email protected].
> 
> Here's a video of someone who got my new DC board (I ordered a couple and assembled them to make sure it was all good before getting a batch done):
> https://blackfamily-my.sharepoint.c...ct&slrid=78ef629e-d0e2-5000-8f80-7375769e162b




Hey Paul I hope the unemployment was not something that a bad thing happened to you! Hope things are ok otherwise.

Hey would you happen to have the latest documents on your synchronized dc controller design that you did way back?

Also what is this new DC board for? What are the new improvements?


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

It just required frequent traveling, but my wife has M.S., and can't drive herself, so I need to be near home, and can't take long trips. Otherwise she and my little kids get stuck at home for extended periods of time.

Oh no, the SR controller. Hmm... I don't have those. I made the boards several years ago, the hard drive went bad, and I never re-did it. This is just a surface mount version of the DC control/driver board that plugs into up to three 600v 600amp IGBTs. Fairly similar to the one duncan has, but also has a USB plug for conversing with a computer using realterm.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

MPaulHolmes said:


> I never knew how to make changes to the Wiki, and then the person who was storing the files quit storing them.


With open-source projects, there tend to be 2 kinds of people:

1 - Those that can participate.

2 - Those that can benefit.

The trick is to get more people to help participate. If you're the one doing the engineering, you shouldn't also have to shoulder the effort documenting it.

If I knew where the project was at, or had/would be building one, I'd be happy to contribute to the documentation.

Losing the files, ugh. There have to be free places to store those files, websites designed exactly for open source projects.



> You are welcome to the most recent files. Since I'm a little "website design" challenged, I just email it to people when they ask for it.


Thanks, much appreciated.

Not sure what your goals are, but in terms of an open source project, if you want it to be as accessible to as many people as possible who could benefit from it, getting it hosted on a central location is definitely the way to go. For example, unless someone stumbles across this thread, and they've heard of the project, how would they know who or how to get a hold of the files?


----------



## arnolddrod (Mar 3, 2013)

Hi,
I had built this controller about 2 years back. Since then the car have been working great @ 96v.
Recently one of the mosfets blew so I replaced it. Now I got a funny problem. Early in the morning the motor just wont run though the green and yellow and the contactor comes on. 
But as soon as the car gets little heated in the sun, the car works as normal as ever .But in the morning the motor just wont move. Need help to please find the problem...
Regards
Arnold


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Old tech tip from the 70's: get a hair dryer and warm up sections of controller. Let them cool down rinse repeat. when it does the condition, you're in the correct neighborhood


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Does anyone know or have a used controller for sale? 
I have been looking for one


----------



## arnolddrod (Mar 3, 2013)

piotrsko said:


> Old tech tip from the 70's: get a hair dryer and warm up sections of controller. Let them cool down rinse repeat. when it does the condition, you're in the correct neighborhood[/QUOTE
> 
> want to know which part on the controller is causing this..


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

I'm such a busy guy that I'm kinda a lurker here although I enjoy getting involved whenever I can.... and of course now that I need something.... here I am. I just hope my story helps someone else too....

A while back I got two DC Control boards from Paul over at P&S Power Electronics. Very nice transaction... one was for a Chevy S-10 conversion I'm doing (slowly) and the other for.. well, as a backup mainly, or something else.

Meanwhile driving the Bradley on the way home, in the 105degF summer heat, after driving 35 miles, pulling only about 150 - 200 amps, my Logisystems controller burned out. Check out my post in the Controller forum for pics!

So that put a fire under my ass to complete one of these P&S Controllers 'cause now my main ride is down!!!

So here's some pics of my progress. I found this case with two fans and amazing heatsink long ago in a scrapyard... in fact it had 5 IGBT's mounted to it... but alas those are not compatible with the P&S controller, so I got the ones Paul recommended. I built up the plexiglass walls... and I ordered the three current sensors... they should be here soon. I have a nice TYCO 500 amp contactor.... and a pre-charge resistor.... So as I put this together, I'd love feedback from anyone with experience with these things.

Regarding the Main Capacitors...

I know the caps are not what Paul suggested... I'm on a budget here and I showed him what I have, and he thinks they might serve... given they are rated 95degC (although they are older) but he had concerns about their ability to manage the Ripple current. I don't know a lot about Ripple Current but I think it has something to do with the rise and fall of the current as the IGBT is switched on and off.... anyone??? And this impacts the heat output of the IGBT, which is the critical factor... yes???

I would be interested if it were possible to add additional CAP's - not necessarily big ones, but certain ones that would minimize this "Ripple"... any ideas or suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.

The system is supplied by a bank of 4 parallel Chevy Volt Lithium Ion packs @150volts. Each pack is 47 amp hours... and I believe they have no problem supplying ample current... so maybe the Ripple handling is more important than the extra Farads... so again, anything on handling the Ripple and keeping the heat of the IGBT's down would be greatly appreciated.

Moving on to the IGBT's.

If anyone here with IGBT experience can confirm the contact assignments I would be grateful... 

For the IGBT INPUT: Starting from the Main Breaker @ Battery POS.... to 500amp SHUNT... to TYCO Contactor... to CAP POS / IGBT contact #1. 

(Noting the pre-charge resistor which will be controlled by an additional contactor)

IGBT OUTPUT: IGBT contact #3 to Motor POS (A1) . 

Does this make sense, or is the proper flow of current reversed through the IGBT?

The three current sensors recommended by Paul would go on the barstock leading to IGBT Contacts #1.

Battery NEG to CAP NEG / Motor S1.

The motor is the older 8" ADC.

Interesting to note that the Logisystem controller had three main connections - Motor NEG (S1), Battery NEG and Battery POS (which was also connected to Motor A1)... and the motor had A2 connected to S2.

So it seems like this P&S Controller setup would have slightly different arrangement from the Logisystems.... almost as if the P&S IGBT's are controlling the current coming from Battery POS whereas the Logisystems controller was controlling current returning to the Battery NEG... although it's funny because the blowout occurred at a MOSFET near the Battery POS terminal of the Logisystems controller....

Anyways, thanks in advance everyone.... and best wishes on your projects!
-Ocean


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Ocean said:


> ...
> Moving on to the IGBT's.
> 
> If anyone here with IGBT experience can confirm the contact assignments I would be grateful...
> ...


It looks like you have it backwards. 

For a DC motor H-bridge drive with forward and reverse, 3 goes to the DC buss (+), 2 goes to DC buss (-), and 1 goes to the motor. And you would only be using 2 devices to form the H-bridge.

i haven't found the schematic but would guess that the third IGBT is being used as an overall ON/OFF switch to control power to the DC buss.

[edit: i found some discussion where he is using the same power devices for either AC or DC, where the "three phases" are wired together...? Got no clue what that means]

For a 3-phase AC motor you would use all 3 devices with the same wiring but each device output (contact 1) would go to a separate phase.

Capacitors:
4 parallel capacitors at 2,100uF gives you 8,400uF total. i don't know what frequency it is running, but i would guess it is a PWM controller at somewhere between 2 and 20 kHz. At these frequencies the capacitor looks like a short circuit to ground and lots of current will flow thru it and cause heating. The ESR of the capacitors will determine how hot they will get due to the ripple current from the PWM switching.

Does the kit include a large inductor somewhere? for example, https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=800450&postcount=22
notice that the caps here are much smaller than yours.

Really need to see a schematic to know what was intended.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thanks for your response Kenny,

But let me be more clear about this setup. As I understand it, these are three half-bridge IGBT's, and they are all running in parallel. There is no electrical reverse, just a gearbox with reverse.

I need to study up on what "half bridge" actually means, because I don't really know.... however....

The GATE (labelled) pin of the circuit board is attached to PIN#4 of the IGBT, which appears to control the Gate between contact #1 and #3.... looking closely at the IGBT diagram and the circuit board layout.

The DC control board has three identical Gate drivers, and I understand that they all do exactly the same thing in parallel....

Also, it is clear to me that there will be three current sensors - one for each IGBT, and that the programming allows each IGBT to run up to 300+ amps, for a total of 900+ amps.

So I think the setup has to be very straight forward...

And the CAPS at high frequency acting like a short to ground... this is because??? I can imagine that current moves into and out from them very fast and this causes the heating... perhaps that is what you mean?

thanks!
-Ocean


----------



## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

For AC currents the caps are low impedance. Not for DC. 
And they're not completely capacitive. 
There's some real power involved in charging/discharging. High ripple current means big caps are needed to dissipate this power. 

Judging by the size of these things I guess they can handle about 20Arms each at max temp and 10 kHz.

OK, the IGBTs run synchronously in parallel. So Paul didn't come up with some clever control scheme to lower the ripple. 
In that case 80Arrms isn't enough for a 900A DC controller. It is enough for 3phase AC though. Farads are probably OK.

Don't know any details about the setup, but I would add at least five 77Arms foil caps.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thank you Tony,

So I think you are saying that the caps need to absorb the ripple current from the IGBT's.... 

I will look more closely into this ASAP... got to go to work now, but thank you.

Can you say something about the flow of current through the IGBT's? Thinking of what Kenny said, and looking at the IGBT schematic, I realized maybe there are bypass diodes on those bridges, and so perhaps the flow does indeed need to be POS at Contact#3 and Output to motor at Contact #1...

thanks, I'll be back tonight.
-Ocean


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay now i see how he is using the power devices.

Each device has 2 igbt circuits, one between 1 and 2, and another between 1 and 3. This device is sometimes called a "totem pole" or half of an H-bridge. Since you have a gearbox for reverse then you don't need the full H-bridge functionality, so he is just using the "top" or upper part of the totem as the power switch, then running all three in parallel to increase the total output current.

Gate pin 4 is used to switch the upper igbt which is between 1 and 3. Terminal 3 is the power supply (+) input and terminal 1 is the output of the igbt.

The ripple in the current is due to the switching on and off of the igbt at the pwm frequency. Those big capacitors can't stop these high frequency pulses and they shoot right thru from + to - as if they weren't there.

A "snubber" circuit is often used in order to filter or smooth out the ripple and requires a tuned set of high-voltage components (lower value caps, resistor, diode, etc) in combination with the big capacitors (used to hold up the DC buss voltage) and the inductance and resistance of the motor windings.

See for example, http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/SCD.pdf , for snubber caps.


----------



## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm 24/7 on standby. Don't know when I'm needed.  Always ASAP.



> So I think you are saying that the caps need to absorb the ripple current from the IGBT's....


And in the case of a DC motor the DC bus ripple current is really high.

Sequence bus caps - igbts - load - return to bus caps.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

kennybobby said:


> Okay now i see how he is using the power devices.
> 
> Each device has 2 igbt circuits, one between 1 and 2, and another between 1 and 3. This device is sometimes called a "totem pole" or half of an H-bridge. Since you have a gearbox for reverse then you don't need the full H-bridge functionality, so he is just using the "top" or upper part of the totem as the power switch, then running all three in parallel to increase the total output current.
> 
> ...


Thank you Kenny... now I think we are on the same page. I did have the current reversed in my original thoughts. Now it makes sense how you describe it, as I see it in the pins and on the IGBT diagram. I think I need to look into the "snubber" circuit to see how that works. I really want to understand these things as best as I can before putting them together.

So I will check out your example...


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hmmm... I looked at those "snubber" capacitors - and they seem to be designed to bridge from one terminal to the next... but not all the way from Terminal 1 to Terminal 3... do you think there are some designed to go all the way from 1 to 3 or should I hack it???


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

These IGBT's are rated for 600 volts... but I am only going to be running 175. Is it possible I don't actually need Snubbers? Even if I didn't need them to protect the IGBT's from burn out, would they still help reduce heat? It gets hot here in the Summer - up to 115 degF... so I want to do everything I can to reduce the heat....


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

The examples were just to show how low of capacitance is used for IGBT snubbers. You can modify or build your own snubber as needed.

It's really hard to know what was intended with this design without a schematic. The tuning of the circuits for your purposes will depend upon your motor electrical characteristics.


----------



## Tony Bogs (Apr 12, 2014)

Snubbers. I believe I have seen a 500A power stage for a DC motor without snubbers, 96V, 600V IGBTs.

There are app notes on the web with detailed descriptions (TI, Nexperia f.i.) how to determine snubber part values. 

It requires scope measurements and a few simple calculations.
Cannot be done purely on schematics.


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Tony Bogs said:


> Snubbers. I believe I have seen a 500A power stage for a DC motor without snubbers, 96V, 600V IGBTs.
> 
> There are app notes on the web with detailed descriptions (TI, Nexperia f.i.) how to determine snubber part values.
> 
> ...


By experience i know power stage needs snubber caps in one form or the other when working over 100A. Granted if you use good film cap (800uF e.g.) you can work without, but power rails have to be designed short etc... 

Simptoms of power stage lacking snubbers are high pitch whine when accelerating hard, thrown desat at high current demand, blown IGBTs etc... been there.

Oh yes, i did use P&S control board, the same but with 3PH AC scheme. Let me say that control and protection circuit is beautifuly done. I tried to design with low capacitance film caps built into it and failed since protection circuit found out about my lack of capacitance and protested everytime . I still have it and is waiting on a fine touch. Mainly to put 3x 2200uF elcaps with 3x 2uF snubber caps inside. I will just make an old fashion power stage this time since everytime i try something modern it protests. 
I ran my Leaf motor with it as well as my ACIM motor in a car. I just didnt fully calibrate FOC code...yet. BLDC motors dont like that, but ACIM worked ok, albeit with very low power.


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I'm running Paul's high power control board, and it is fantastic. It was a little experimental, and there were a few kinks to work out. Now that everything is settled, it has been 100% reliable. I'm running it at 200 volts and 1,000 amps peak.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm really appreciating all the insight and feedback here. I do want to add snubbers. I was just looking at these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/asc-x329s-...927252?hash=item1cb0996554:g:SvsAAOSw~7ZbN8b0

There seems to be not-that-much to choose from on Ebay. I would love some opinions here... 

I'm still learning how this works, and I don't feel confident to calculate the actual snubber cap values that I would need to optimize my setup... and I don't have a scope... so I'm wondering if I can think of it as a and electrical dampening mechanism... kindof like a shock absorber for a car... well I know they can be tuned for best performance... and yet even just having something is better than nothing at all.

this listing (above) is for FOUR snubber caps.... would it be better to use all four or just one? Does having more in parallel offer better dampening, or does it diminish the effect?

Here's a pic of my progress today. I finally settled on using the Bus Bar material from the Chevy Volt modules....


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

jbman said:


> I'm running Paul's high power control board, and it is fantastic. It was a little experimental, and there were a few kinks to work out. Now that everything is settled, it has been 100% reliable. I'm running it at 200 volts and 1,000 amps peak.


Awesome. Are you running his DC control board??? I'd love to see some pics of your setup.... What snubbers are you using? what battery CAPS? what kind of battery bank?


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

*Experience w/Paul &amp; Sabrina's Controller*



Ocean said:


> Awesome. Are you running his DC control board??? I'd love to see some pics of your setup.... What snubbers are you using? what battery CAPS? what kind of battery bank?




There’s just one bus capacitor, and it’s a big guy.










Paul recommended that I use pretty long cables from each IGBT to the motor to help them share the load more evenly. They’re about 3 ft, iirc.










It’s not super pretty, but it’s working very well 










Since these were taken I added plexiglass ends with a small fan in each side and a small temperature controller. They kick on if I run it hard for maybe 15-20 seconds. The motor fan usually kicks on after a couple of minutes of driving or if I floor it right off.

I’m using 4 Chevy Volt batteries. The video on Paul’s site for his DC control board is my MG  *feels special*

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Wow JBMan that's awesome. Thank you for sharing! Yeah Paul recommended that huge CAP but I'm going to try with what I have before spending more money.

So you are also using Chevy Volt batteries too! You said "four" but... ok, you're running 200 volts so that means you have four of the 2kWh Units in Series... so 8kWh.. correct? I can't imagine fitting more than that in your MG lol...haha. Awesome tho - and wow you pull up to 1000 amps from one string!!!

My setup has four strings of 3 x 2kw units (in the Bradley) - so 150v @ 24kWh... I guess I could pull some crazy amps if I tried... but I don't want to melt my motor.... only an 8" ADC... which btw I would like to improve the cooling on my motor... awesome you have a fan setup for yours... btw what motor are you using that you give it a full 200v???

As far as Snubbers go, I found a decent document that offered some good guidance.. it said "rule of thumb" give 1uF of Capacitance per 100 amps of switching.... so that really helped. I decided to get these 8uF 600v snubbers on ebay.

Here's the Doc:
https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/IGBT_snubbers.pdf

Cheers Everyone!!!


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

*Experience w/Paul &amp; Sabrina's Controller*

You have to really flog it to get it to pull 1k amps. Like, mash the pedal from a dead stop and hold. It’ll touch 1k, but it’ll drop quickly as you accelerate.

I have the four batteries in the trunk, and they fit with a little room on the sides for my charger and contactor and fuse. They are the 2kwh units that you mentioned.

I’m using a Kostov 11 motor. In series, Kostov rates it at 250v. 200v in parallel.

It’s hugely overkill for the car, haha. Makes for a very fun drive.

I added the fans to the controller after “stress testing” everything by flooring it up and down the street for a minute or two. It got warm, but not what I would consider concerning. Certainly not hot. I figured the fans could only help, and I added them as insurance  I’d like to autocross the car one day like that cool cat Duncan, so everything helps.

I’m also using a much larger piece of aluminum because it’s what I could find, and cutting aluminum is literally the worst thing. I like to think about how it helps with heat dissipation, so I don’t worry about it.

I followed Paul’s guide since I am very new to this arena. I’ve worked on ICE cars for a few years, but EVs were uncharted territory for me. He was very helpful, and my first project was a huge success thanks to him in no small part.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey JBMan, very cool. Sounds like your ride is super fun. Yeah I sometimes think about racing too... little fantasy...

How interesting you're running a Kostov 11" motor! I picked up a Kostov 11" my self (older one), along with the adapter for my Chevy S-10 conversion, and an identical spare parts motor as well. Interestingly, the guy I got it from took it out of a VW Bug. My Bradley is on a VW frame, and I've been thinking about going back to that guy and seeing if he will part with the VW Adapter that went with the Kostov... but we'll see. First I need to see how the 8" ADC performs with the P&S Controller in the Bradley. I've been thinking about ways to cool that motor...

How did you get a cooling fan onto your 11" Kostov? Is it shrouded? Doesn't the Kostov have a cooling fan built into it?

I myself would like to fix my spare parts Kostov 11" motor into a fully functional second motor... do you know where I can get some parts? Specifically the Brushes and Brush Brackets???

I think it's really cool building your own controller - I mean, even using P&S's Control Board (I'm no electronics engineer) - but putting it together, seeing how it works, and being able to repair it if something goes wrong... super cool.

So do you have Snubbers on yours???

Cheers!
-Ocean


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

*Experience w/Paul &amp; Sabrina's Controller*

I got the K11 off of eBay. It’s some kind of high output model, and it has a cooling fan on the rear end bolted to it. It still has the shaft mounted fan as well. I just wired it to a little temperature controller and bolted a thermistor to the brush holder. The price was right, but it was still a lot more than a regular forklift motor. It works incredibly well, though. I have great efficiency with such a small car, but stupid power on tap when someone wants to be foolish on the road.










Speaking of brush holders and such, I’ve been trying to find some brushes to have a few on hand. I have not had any luck at all. You may consider asking on the Kostov web site. Let me know if you find some 

The only capacitor I’m using is the large one on the output bus. I think that counts as a snubber, haha. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm Lovin' it JBMan... super cool. Yes I will keep you in mind about the brushes.... if I find some. I tried at one point contacting Kostov through email but I never got a reply... maybe I will try again. Nice job on the extra cooling... ;~)


----------



## boznz (Aug 22, 2018)

For the Technical among you a lot of the theory of this is covered in the microchip application note AN984 it is pretty well written and easy to understand by the average electronics guy.

Application Note GS004 Compliments this quite well

I used this as the basis of some VFD inverter circuits I developed for a client back in 2006 and which I may dig out now I have decided to convert my BMW 528 Auto to an EV, however lots of high voltage AC theory to re-learn before I touch a soldering iron as I have been mostly working at 3.3V for the last 10 years.

Looking forward to it though


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey All,

Well my P&S Controller Build is just about done. Haven't installed it in the Bradley yet, in fact I need to test it on a bench motor just to see it behaves properly - but I'm feeling pretty good about it... thought I'd share some pics. Oh yes BTW there will an 8mF Snub Cap between the B+ (input) and the M+ (output)... 

The Main Contactor is a Tyco 500amp. The Pre-Charge Contactor is re-purposed from the original Chevy Volt Battery (inside the "Interface / Head" there are several high voltage (12v coil) contactors... was a bitch getting this one off the circuit board tho..) The pre-charge resistor is 750ohm 25watt...

Comments welcome and especially if anyone spots something terribly wrong... Cheers!


----------



## boznz (Aug 22, 2018)

WOW. That looks bulletproof, I hope mine turns out as neat


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Here are some piccies of my Paul & Sabrina controller(s)

The high current high voltage one makes the old 500 amp one look tiny!

The cooling block is bolted underneath the IGBT's and has coolant circulated through it and through the batteries


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

The controllers you guys built make mine look trashy, haha! I’m glad to see more people using this thing, though. Paul is a good guy, and he’s made a good product here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Ocean said:


> .... Oh yes BTW there will an 8mF Snub Cap between the B+ (input) and the M+ (output)...


Is that mF, milliF , or microF, aka uF ? 8mF seems way too high to be effective

How did you determine the value needed, and what is the voltage rating?


----------



## boznz (Aug 22, 2018)

Duncan, that's a real monster!

I'm hoping the controller when it arrives comes with some good instructions, the thread on the other forum where Paul designs it is several hundred pages long and the design has changed considerably over the years so most of the early stuff is not relevant as most everything has changed to the SMD version he is shipping now. My plan is to set it all up on the bench with 48V battery and a 50 fuse and get it all going with an old 3-phase AC Induction motor before it goes anywhere near the BMW.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

kennybobby said:


> Is that mF, milliF , or microF, aka uF ? 8mF seems way too high to be effective
> 
> How did you determine the value needed, and what is the voltage rating?


Hi Kenny thanks for asking,

It's an ASC Capacitor X329S 600VDC, "8.0MFD +/- 10%" is how it's written on the cap. the IGBT's are also 600v.

The Cap was sold on ebay as a IGBT SNUB Capacitor, and it does have the tabs oriented to lay on an IGBT.

I found this document:
https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/IGBT_snubbers.pdf

which offered this recommendation: "For direct mount capacitors use 1 µF of snubber capacitance for every 100 Amps being switched as a rule
of thumb." 

A search on the make / model of this capacitor reveals that it is in fact 8µF which is relieving, I was worried for a moment.

I figured that, since I could be switching up to 1000 amps, but more often 100 - 500amps, this should do nicely. What do you think???


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes that makes more sense, MFD is microfarads. It sounds like a good rule of thumb on the selection criteria.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Duncan so cool to see pics of your build - awesome! Do your batteries actually get hot enough to need cooling??? Or is your controller going to heat them up?? haha.... my batteries have yet to get hot or even warm to the touch but to be fair I've never pulled more than 2c from them and the typical pull to keep me moving is less than 1c for the whole pack... but maybe that will change with this new controller ;~)

JBMan don't kid yourself your build is awesome too you are a pioneer man... and if you want to pretty it up you can always do that. I myself lucked out that I had this old massive heat sink laying around along with the original fans, Capacitors & base metal case that went with it (I think it was an old high power inverter). I just figured out how to build the controller within the confines of that space... 

BOZNZ You're gonna do a P&S Controller too??? Looking forward to seeing it!

Hey just an idea/question for everyone...., since I'm going to be building another one of these controllers for my S-10 conversion, and I will need to come up with another case to do it... I was thinking of potential scrap metal cases that might have big heat sinks... like an old Arc Welder??? or an old, BIG, 12 inverter case that's been fried... or...??? any ideas?


I'm still praying everying goes well on the test and once I get it installed that will be the REAL test.... I might then need to work on cooling for the motor!

Cheers Everyone and a BIG THANKS to Paul and Sabrina for making this level of DIY possible.... and super cool...


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

kennybobby said:


> Yes that makes more sense, MFD is microfarads. It sounds like a good rule of thumb on the selection criteria.


... cool...


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Ocean
I'm in Southland - the Volt batteries apparently do best at 30C - the highest I have seen is 22C

I'm using the batteries to keep my controller cool


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Hi Ocean
> I'm in Southland - the Volt batteries apparently do best at 30C - the highest I have seen is 22C
> 
> I'm using the batteries to keep my controller cool


I see that's very interesting... and so you too are using Volt batteries.... and using them to keep the controller cool... Sounds like a good match.


----------



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Is that mF, milliF , or microF, aka uF ? 8mF seems way too high to be effective





> "8.0MFD +/- 10%" is how it's written on the cap.


"mfd" or "mF" even is old-timey nomenclature for "uF" or microfarad.

It's silly, because mF would specifically mean 1000x what it implies, in other context.

But because it's old-timey, no one really rates capacitors in terms of "milliFarads". The normal metric just skips over that and writes thousands of microFarads instead, so that you'd hopefully never get confused. For example, you'd write: 23pF, 23nF, 23uF, 23,000 uF, 23F. Never mF.

And because we're on a tangent anyway, what do you call a meal with 1000 calories? "Kilocalorie"? No. Because calories are already kilocalories, people just dropped the prefix for common language. Technically that meal is 1,000,000 actual calories, but, no one can use that anymore. Whatever. Calorie isn't even a metric notation anyway.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

OK so I'm bench testing my P&S Controller Build and I'm having a weird problem.... the motor spins at full speed...

from the beginning:

I have an 11" Kostov hooked up to the controller in the same manner as I would connect the ADC motor in the Bradley. BUT it's only connected to a 12 volt battery. The same battery supplies power to the 12/24 volt converter which powers the P&S Control board. Everything seems good. I switch power to the board, the contactor clicks, and the motor surges pulling 50 amps then settles back to about 30 amps. The Hall throttle has no effect.

So I think maybe the hall throttle is connected wrong.... I re-arrange the three wires in every possible configuration on the pins for +5v, Ground, and Hall. Every time, it's either nothing, or full power with no effect from the Hall throttle.

Anybody have any ideas on this???

thanks,
-Ocean


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Is it meant for a hall effect throttle? - I'm using a 0 - 5K resistor as my throttle


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

*Experience w/Paul &amp; Sabrina's Controller*



Ocean said:


> OK so I'm bench testing my P&S Controller Build and I'm having a weird problem.... the motor spins at full speed...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The controller has a throttle lockout fault, so I don’t think it will close the contactor with the throttle pressed. I’m not sure why it would be on constantly, though. I would double check the “high voltage” wiring.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Duncan - I guess maybe but when I ordered the board it was agreed that it would be set up for a Hall Throttle.

JBMan I think the HV wiring is ok. If I turn the board ON with the throttle completely dis-connected, nothing happens. The motor does not turn.

It's only with the Hall Throttle connectes that when I turn it on the motor surges to full power.

This is very strange.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Does anyone know of a way to test a Hall Throttle? To see if it's working properly?


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Ocean said:


> Does anyone know of a way to test a Hall Throttle? To see if it's working properly?




You should be able to measure the output of the throttle when it is connected to the controller and on. No need to have the motor connected, iirc. Just use a multimeter. I tested mine reading 0-5v when I moved it. What throttle are you using?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

jbman said:


> You should be able to measure the output of the throttle when it is connected to the controller and on. No need to have the motor connected, iirc. Just use a multimeter. I tested mine reading 0-5v when I moved it. What throttle are you using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you JBMan... ok so I disconnected the wire from the Hall pin... leaving the +5v and Ground wires connected. Turned the board ON and measured ~1.43v between the ground pin and output wire, and (-)3.57v between the +5v pin and the output wire. Neither of these values changed at all when I move the throttle.

IT's a PB-06 Potbox Hall Throttle from China - recommended by Paul... Do you think the Throttle is just bad? Or maybe it's shorted or something on the inside?


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

I think I connected the Hall Throttle incorrectly the first time.... do you think this could have destroyed it? The throttle did not include any instructions or indication of which wire was which... when I eventually went back to the seller listing, I found the wire assignments. Hooking it up to a seperate 5v power supply, with the proper connections, it appears to be stuck on 1.45 volts output.... steady, with no change with respect to throttle position.... any ideas?


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Ocean said:


> I think I connected the Hall Throttle incorrectly the first time.... do you think this could have destroyed it? The throttle did not include any instructions or indication of which wire was which... when I eventually went back to the seller listing, I found the wire assignments. Hooking it up to a seperate 5v power supply, with the proper connections, it appears to be stuck on 1.45 volts output.... steady, with no change with respect to throttle position.... any ideas?




I bought one of those off of eBay. It might have been a knock-off. Either way, it was total junk, and it’s not sealed. If you’re going to run it, make sure you have a kill switch imo. I ended up using the throttle from ev-West instead, and it is vastly superior. I opened the PB-6 throttle box I had originally purchased, and I was horrified and immediately returned it.

That being said, if the voltage never changes, it’s probably not working. I hooked mine up backwards a few times to no detriment, not that I’d recommend it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

jbman said:


> I bought one of those off of eBay. It might have been a knock-off. Either way, it was total junk, and it’s not sealed. If you’re going to run it, make sure you have a kill switch imo. I ended up using the throttle from ev-West instead, and it is vastly superior. I opened the PB-6 throttle box I had originally purchased, and I was horrified and immediately returned it.
> 
> That being said, if the voltage never changes, it’s probably not working. I hooked mine up backwards a few times to no detriment, not that I’d recommend it.
> 
> ...


Interesting. In fact I opened mine too (the potbox) to see what was inside, and this little circuit board with the hall chip soldered to it... it was soooo dirty (with flux residue I believe).. crazy. But it's been over a month. I cleaned it hoping that would help... but no. Still constant 1.45 volts. I've contacted them hoping for a replacement - even just a new chip would be nice and I could re-build it. I'm hoping.


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Ocean said:


> Interesting. In fact I opened mine too (the potbox) to see what was inside, and this little circuit board with the hall chip soldered to it... it was soooo dirty (with flux residue I believe).. crazy. But it's been over a month. I cleaned it hoping that would help... but no. Still constant 1.45 volts. I've contacted them hoping for a replacement - even just a new chip would be nice and I could re-build it. I'm hoping.


Honestly, I wasn't willing to bet my life on the quality of that thing. Golf cart? Sure. Rocket ship? No thanks. I didn't even consider trying to use it once I looked inside. This one was $100 more, and I call that cheap insurance in this case: http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=418


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

jbman said:


> Honestly, I wasn't willing to bet my life on the quality of that thing. Golf cart? Sure. Rocket ship? No thanks. I didn't even consider trying to use it once I looked inside. This one was $100 more, and I call that cheap insurance in this case: http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=418


Wow. That IS hard core. I will consider it. YES to a Kill Switch.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey JBMan or Duncan or anyone I need a little help. After a busy last few months I finally got around to installing my newly built P&S Controller into my Bradley and I was so excited but when I turned it on... NOTHING!!!

Everything clicks on, the contactor closes. Full voltage at IGBT C1.

A Big Fat Nothing. Some diagnosis leads me to wondering about the Battery / IGBT / Motor Connection. Maybe I have something wrong... because when it's all connected, I turn it on and the IGBT Gate reads -7.9 (negative!) volts.

I asked paul and he said that means a hardware fault. He advised looking at the programming, which I failed at. But then I did something with an unexpected result. I disconnected the MOTOR+ Cable, and tried again, and the IGBT Gates read +9 volts and rising. So with the Motor POS (A1) disconnected, the Gate's appear to work.

Soooooo Here's how I have all the heavy wire connected. Please tell me if it seems wrong!

Bat POS to Shunt to Breaker (250Amp) to Contactor to IGBT Input called C1

IGBT C2E1 to Motor A1

... did I misunderstand how the cuurent moves through the IGBT??? Is it backwards???

Motor A2 to S2
Motor S1 to Battery NEG
Bat NEG to Cap NEG
Cap POS to IGBT C1

... and when i measure voltage between A1 and Bat POS I see 150 volts, which I think is correct because the current travels all through the motor and so Bat NEG voltage should show up at A1.

Am I missing something???

JBMan how is yours connected?

thanks everyone!


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Ocean

I started off in my study with the controller connected to an old starter motor and 12 volt battery while I got it working before putting it into the car

There is a bit of backward and forwards - here 

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthr...cheap-diy-144v-motor-controller-6404-689.html


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

@Ocean

1. Make sure you have connected throttle and calibrated it in the interface.
Without throttle nothing works.

2. Make sure you have all desat connectors mounted. Without this every IGBT will be LOW!

3. See in RS232 interface if there is any other condition requested.

4. Do you have your current sensors correctly referenced in the code?

5. Perform Ki and Kp and other settings callibration as per Pauls instructions.

Arber


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Arber, thank you - that's an interesting point about the Desat. connectors - I only have one (because I'm DC) but it's an interesting thing to consider after today's episode. As for the RS232 Serial connection, I have not got that figured out yet. I made a 9-pin cable, and hooked to an older laptop with Linux but i was not able to connect. I may have to work harder on that. I mean Paul programmed it before sending it to me, but yes I do need to have access to the parameters.

Duncan that's an interesting thread! I will look more over it but I did see an interesting reference to a sound of rushing water, which I did myself experience as I was bench testing on a 11" Kostov with a 12v battery. Very curious.

But today is another story. A moment of triumph and the rest defeat.

Looking over the pictures Paul sent me of his build, I realized he was connecting the Cap NEG to IGBT E2 (Middle Connector #2) - which I had not done basically from fear of putting both the Cap POS and NEG on the IGBT (CAP POS is already connected to IGBT C1 (Connector #3))

So I asked him to confirm that connection, and he did - he said yes CAP Neg to E2

So I did that, put it all back together. Calibrated the Hall Throttle (basically putting the Hall Output through the interrupt switch, so that when the pedal is released, the Hall output goes to zero. Push the pedal and it jumps to 0.8 and rising)

And I turned it on, and it WORKED!!!! I could press the gas and spin the motor (in neutral, just tapping it, and watching the RPM's jump)

And THAT was exhilarating! Sooo exciting!!! So I turned it off - turning off the key and ALSO flipping off the main POS Breaker - then I cleaned up, put everything away, and put the lid back on. I wanted to show my wife, so when she came out, I was so excited, that I jumped in the car and turned on the key before realizing the main breaker was off. I thought no big deal, switched OFF the key, and immediately - within three seconds of turning off the key - I switched ON the Main POS Breaker (250amp breaker).

That's when something POPPED. And I have no idea what it was. And at that point the system went dead and NO JOY. I turned the key on, but The motor would not spin.

So Dissappointing! So frustrating. I tried a couple more times turning the key off and on. No Joy.

I flipped off the main breaker.

I drained the CAPS by shorting them through a huge resistor (the kind used to shunt energy from a 1kw small windmill). It's basically like a big coil room heater. Little sparky doing that with big alligator clips but no problem.

Thinking this might drain the system and allow the fault to reset.

With the key off, I flipped ON the Main Breaker - and POP! Agian! But this time not as loud. strange. AND the key is still off so WTF??? With the key off there is no power to the board and so BOTH the Precharge Contactor AND the Main Contactor must be open. What is there for it to short too???

A couple more times and the intensity of this POP diminished to nothing. Very strange.

I took the lid back off. With Breaker ON and Key Power ON, I tested the gates. LOW. -7.6 volts.

I tested all the test points on the board. All ok.

I shut everything down and drained the caps and tested for continuity where it should and should NOT be. Everything seems ok but I will probably do this again. Throttle input is good. Drops to zero with pedal released. Goes up to ~4.2 at the floor. IGBT's seem not to be shorted although I wish I knew a way to test for sure if they are ok. I just found no continuity between 1,2&3 but there is continuity between PIN E2 and Post E2 (#2) but that is consistant with the circuit diagrom of the IGBT.. Also there is continuity between Pin 5 (0 volts on the board) and Post 1 (Motor Output) but again this is consistant with the IGBT diagram.

Sooooooo...... I also tested the Pre-charge Contactor and Main Contactor for 12v switching and they both seem good.  ALTHOUGH the precharge contactor was a little sticky for a moment while I was testing it.

BUT what if the pre-charge contactor was in fact closed (stuck closed) when I flipped on the main breaker that first time - it would short the Main POS through the Pre-Charge Resistor which is 750ohm... so would that make a POP??? Would that POP sound come from the Resistor? No. Maybe the Breaker??? Seems hard to believe but maybe. Even if it did, what then...? it simply charged up the Capacitors. But maybe it would have done so before the BOARD expected it??? Maybe. Hmmm....

Makes me wonder about that Desaturation connection arber333 mentioned. Because it IS connected to the POS at the IGBT #3 - which is of course connected to the precharge resistor (as well as the Main Contactor)- so it would have sensed when first the CAP's got that charge. The only difference I can see between this and the normal operation is that normally, the BOARD powers up and it commands the Precharge Contactor - it just happens so fast - but the board does power up FIRST. In this case the Desat Connector would have seen voltage at IGBT #3 before the Board powered up.

And this makes me wonder.....

I was wishing for a way to reset the board. Anyone know more about that Desat connection???

Anyways, now the IGBT Gates are all stuck LOW at -7.6x volts and it's super frustrating.

thanks everyone. Happy New Years /-|


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Two Days Later.

It's pissing rain. Yesterday I did nothing with the Bradley because I was working. Today, I get an email from Paul asking about the layout of the connections. Cool. So I go out and get a PIC of the layout. While I'm out there, I think what the hell, can't hur to try again. So I "carefully" flip on the Breaker - no pop. Turn on the Key (applying power to the board). Hear all the Contactors click.

I press the gas (in neutral) and VROOM! SPIN! The motor spins up! It's working!

I don't know why or how long it took for the Board to settle down and the Gates to get released, but now their on! Very interesting. Spinning was a little rough / choppy for the first few moments, then it got real smooth. I could hear that "rushing water sound".

Amazing.

I can't wait for the weather to dry up so I can take it out for a spin!

I just gotta say, weird. I wonder why / how long the board takes to settle down after some kind of "event" - that POP that triggered the shut down two days ago. I did everything I could think of to reset it - drained the caps, disconnected everything - turning it on / off I don't know how many times... still nothing. TIME seems to be the only remedy that worked.

Very Interesting...

Cheers!


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

@Ocean

You use 5V relay on Pauls board to switch your dedicated precharge relay? I recommend this very much! I would suggest replacing precharge relay with a HV relay like this. https://na.industrial.panasonic.com...s/ev-relays-dc-contactors/1243/model/AEV52012

You can get them on ebay for like $30 too. 

Here is where i dont agree with Pauls philosophy. He uses a timer to start precharge and after some seconds it starts main contactor. How do you know cap has enough voltage to start DC link? It could be a burnt out resistor and cap would be onla 1/2 full. BANG in the DC link and of course desat kicks in. 
What is the value of your resistor? Did you calculate 3s is enough time?

With Johannes inverter i use active voltage measurement to trigger desat after DC link voltage is more than 300Vdc. If i try and start at say 280Vdc somethimes it would be ok, but many times desat and OClimit would kick in. 
Pauls desat protection is very effective, also overcurrent too. No worries there though. I just dont agree with timer. I am thinking of adding a TL431 reference circuit to sense acceptable DClink voltage and open DC contactor then. 

One thing you can do to have an IGBT tester handy. I took a simple cheap driver with desat and built a single gate driver. I setup a GE connection and C link with clips. Then i put a LED on Fault output of the driver with pullup resistor to 5V. When everything is good LED is lit. As soon as something goes bad LED is off and i know IGBT must be bad. 
It works off normal 5V PSU with one +15V/-8V DCDC and ACPL-333J or ACPL-337J driver. I built a circuit exactly acording to datasheet.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

@arber333 Wow, most of that stuff about building an IGBT tester is a bit over my head. I would really like to understand the chips and circuit you are describing but in truth I don't. I only have a vague idea. Circuits are still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm honestly more confident with raw power as long as it's clear how I'm connecting it.

But the good news is that right now the P&S Controller is working!

The Pre-Charge contactor I am using (driven by Pual's on-board relay) is taken from a Chevy Volt battery Head Unit. I'm using Volt batteries and so I ended up with two head units to play with. They have a heavy circuit board inside (several actually) which has THREE high voltage relays mounted on it, as well as the two separated Main Contactors. So that's a good source.

Seems to be working good at the moment - although I haven't taken it out on the road yet, I can spin it up nicely in neutral.

My Pre-Charge Resistor is 750 Ohm and I have not calculated if 3 seconds is enough to charge the caps - but I'm only running 150v (max charge) and the Cap's aren't really that big (4x 2100 microF @ 450v). BUT there was only the one time that I heard that POP and it was a funny circumstance (switching key off and almost simultaneously switching POS Breaker ON) Now I'm being more careful in my startup sequence.

The Traction pack is built up from Volt Modules. 36s (3x 2kw modules in series) x 4 strings. Total 24kWh

Thanks for advice Arber!


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> @arber333 Wow, most of that stuff about building an IGBT tester is a bit over my head. I would really like to understand the chips and circuit you are describing but in truth I don't. I only have a vague idea. Circuits are still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm honestly more confident with raw power as long as it's clear how I'm connecting it.
> 
> But the good news is that right now the P&S Controller is working!
> 
> ...


Here is the calculation for precharge resistance. Try using 66% voltage as a reference. I think 750R should be for 7s with 8000uF caps. 
I am using 220R 25W with 380Vdc and precharge up to 300Vdc. 
Maybe you could try using 330R, it gives more like 3s time to charge up to 100Vdc.
http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php

If you want i can make you a tester board for a single IGBT GE contact test.
This should be better and safer than touch test and you dont have to dissassemble much of the power stage. 
I will check if i have some PCB boards left from that...

A


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

arber333 said:


> Here is the calculation for precharge resistance. Try using 66% voltage as a reference. I think 750R should be for 7s with 8000uF caps.
> I am using 220R 25W with 380Vdc and precharge up to 300Vdc.
> Maybe you could try using 330R, it gives more like 3s time to charge up to 100Vdc.
> http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php
> ...


Wow Thank you Arber that's really kind to offer! I would love to have something to test the IGBT's - although I have to say that gaining access to their pins is really difficult unless they can simply remain in place as they are connected to the board. The board grabs them really stiff so prying the board off of them is not really handy. Can they be tested through the board using the Zero and Gate pins? What part of the power stage would need to be removed?

Here's a couple pics of my controller. All these pics except one show it missing the connection from the middle Tab to the Cap NEG. The final pic (which is sadly not very good) shows the installation in the vehicle, with the connection between Post #2 and the Cap Neg's.

And it does seem to be working now! Although I have not yet taken it out on the road because the weather has been crappy and it's a fair weather car.... it does spin the motor nicely in neutral - so I'm really looking forward to report on the test drive!

And lastly I will have a look at the Pre-Charge Resistor Calculator. Thanks for that!

-O


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

arber333 said:


> Here is the calculation for precharge resistance. Try using 66% voltage as a reference. I think 750R should be for 7s with 8000uF caps.
> I am using 220R 25W with 380Vdc and precharge up to 300Vdc.
> Maybe you could try using 330R, it gives more like 3s time to charge up to 100Vdc.
> http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php
> ...


Wow Thank you Arber that's really kind to offer! I would love to have something to test the IGBT's - although I have to say that gaining access to their pins is really difficult unless they can simply remain in place as they are connected to the board. The board grabs them really stiff so prying the board off of them is not really handy. Can they be tested through the board using the Zero and Gate pins? What part of the power stage would need to be removed?

Here's a couple pics of my controller. All these pics except one show it missing the connection from the middle Tab to the Cap NEG. The final pic (which is sadly not very good) shows the installation in the vehicle, with the connection between Post #2 and the Cap Neg's.

And it does seem to be working now! Although I have not yet taken it out on the road because the weather has been crappy and it's a fair weather car.... it does spin the motor nicely in neutral - so I'm really looking forward to report on the test drive!

And lastly I will have a look at the Pre-Charge Resistor Calculator. Thanks for that!

-O


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Wow that calculator is great! I can see that I should really be having a 300 Ohm 75 watt resistor - that would be pretty good - getting me up to 100 volts in under 3 seconds.

As it is now, I have a 750 Ohm 25 watt resistor (came with the car) and it looks like I only get up to just under 60 volts in 3 seconds which means the contactor is sustaining a pretty good rush - from 60 to 150 volts on contact. Yeah I think I should do something about that.

thanks again Arber!
-Ocean


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Ocean

I use an old kettle element for my pre-charge resister - and I just use an extra switch rather than Paul's controller
Makes switching the car on look more impressive


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Thats a tidy looking controller , I Like the orange covered busbars, did you make those yourself ?


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> Wow that calculator is great! I can see that I should really be having a 300 Ohm 75 watt resistor - that would be pretty good - getting me up to 100 volts in under 3 seconds.
> 
> As it is now, I have a 750 Ohm 25 watt resistor (came with the car) and it looks like I only get up to just under 60 volts in 3 seconds which means the contactor is sustaining a pretty good rush - from 60 to 150 volts on contact. Yeah I think I should do something about that.
> 
> ...


I think you would be good with 330R 25W ceramic resistor. I use 150R 25W at 400Vdc and it didnt fail yet. They can sustain up to 5x the rated current. But that is only for a second, afterwards current falls exponentially.

EDIT: I took apart front panel from Volt and as i remember there are 2x bulky resistors 22R. I think they are rated 100W each. Didnt you mention you got two of the Volt battery front plates?


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

arber333 said:


> I think you would be good with 330R 25W ceramic resistor. I use 150R 25W at 400Vdc and it didnt fail yet. They can sustain up to 5x the rated current. But that is only for a second, afterwards current falls exponentially.
> 
> EDIT: I took apart front panel from Volt and as i remember there are 2x bulky resistors 22R. I think they are rated 100W each. Didnt you mention you got two of the Volt battery front plates?


@arber333 yeah, I do have two of those Volt units. I did look at that heavy resistor, but it's only 25 Ohms. Seems like that would be too fast and too intense - peak 900 watts (6 amps) according to that calculator! Anyways it wouldn't fit in the case where the current one is. 

But that's ok, I looked for a 330 Ohm like you suggested, but I only found a pair of 200 Ohm 50 watt aluminum shell power resistors on Ebay for like $5 shipped.... so I ordered those. the peak wattage will be about 125 watts but it will reach 120 volts (out of 150) in under 3 seconds so I think that will be pretty good.

@Duncan, you are a badass ;~). I will keep that in mind if I really do need to hack it. I do have a couple electric elements around so I could check them.

@zippy500 thanks! The orange busbars are re-purposed from the Chevy Volt Batteries I dis-assembled to make up my main traction pack. They are nice because they are pretty flexible - actually comprised of many thin layers of copper alloy. They are not super heavy (Volt's run 360 volts so less amps), so after studying some ampacity charts, I tripled them on the POS input and motor output. I like the idea that the copper never gets hot - especially on top of the IGBT's. The main POS Cable is 4/0 as well as the cable from Motor Output to Motor A1.

In fact my next biggest concern is keeping the motor cool!

Still raining here, so no test drive yet... but it will come. Cheers!


----------



## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

I was wondering why most people are still using 'static' resistors for pre-charge instead of using PTC or (even NTC) units ?


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

prensel said:


> I was wondering why most people are still using 'static' resistors for pre-charge instead of using PTC or (even NTC) units ?


I guess because i can just walk to the store and buy a replacement vs wait a week to get one on order. I use my EV every day so i had to rationalize. 

I use 3x of them in my 3 phase charger also so that i have a reason to keep a spare...


----------



## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Here are some background theories about why using PTC or NTC is 'better' or safer then using static high power R's


https://product.tdk.com/info/en/pro.../ptc-limiter/technote/apn-ptc-thermistor.html


https://www.ametherm.com/inrush-cur...ction-precharge-circuit-lithium-ion-batteries


In the 2001 Think City (my daily driver) they use 3 * 150R/160V PTC's in parallel to pre-charge the Siemens/Simotion inverter.
The auxilary system (charger and dc/dc) has its own pre-charge system also with 3 PTC's elements in parallel.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

I begin to see the error of my ways.

Well I took it out for a spin, and I didn't get very far. Going real easy I pulled up my very steep driveway smoothly, with no problem.

Then, down a short dip, then up another rise, and I punched it (a little bit) to feel some power - and POP.

I did something again. Which at the time seemed odd, since it was working - what would suddently go wrong when I hit the gas?

No obvious burn marks.

But then I thought "maybe those orange flexible Chevy Volt cables aren't a great idea afterall" - since they are many layers of thinner material, maybe it separated a little when I bent and re-shaped it. Maybe there was some kind of arcing in the material..??

And the board went down. But not exactly into a lockdown with all the gates low as before. This time the entire "gate half" of the board was offset by +8 volts. So the +15v point read about 23v and the -8v point ready about zero volts. The first Gate (circled in RED on the board - first from right - checkpoints area of the board) was 0.000 the other two were like 6xx.00 mV so a little weird. 

This state would not correct itself after two days of sitting silent, disconnected from power, even with the saturation post disconnected, and then I drained the caps gently, and tested again.... all the same. 

I still could not access the board with Serial communications even though I have a terminal program with USB/Serial Adapter and a good Loop Test, I still could not communicate with the board - even swapping TX / RX connections... for some reason still unknown.

So I pulled the board and took a good look. And I tested more. I looked for similar resistance in the large resistors on the bottom of the board. Pretty consistant. I noticed the Gate Diodes. I checked them. 

BAM (circled in RED on the board in the PIC). The two Gate Diodes on the First Gate (same as above) are shot. They have continuity and my tester reads them differently than those on the other two gates.

So this is interesting. NOW, I check the IGBT's. Yeah, according to the diagram printed on the side of the IGBT itself, Pin #5 touches Post #1 which is the Motor Output. So there should be continuity between Post #1 and Pin #5. On the First IGBT (the one connected to the First Gate) there is no continuity between #1 and #5. On the others there is continuity as it should be. I checked this sooo many times. 

So I Killed an IGBT, and in the process I killed the Board - at least the Gate 1 - Gate nearest the test points. I'm not sure how deep the damage goes, but at least the first two diodes! D14 and D15.

All the connections seemed right and it WAS working so what did I do???

I think I failed to adequately spread the load evenly across all three IGBT's. I think the Orange Cable was a bad idea. Any other ideas???

The IGBT that failed was the closest to the POS Input. Also it had the shortest exit to the Motor OUTPUT.
I attempted to spread the load in my design but I didn't do a good enough job. The way I see it, when I hit the gas, the board opened all the IGBT's wide but the one that was closest to the POS took too much of the juice and POPed. Anyone with other ideas please tell!!!

Pauls design has all three posts connected to the same sheet of metal... which would allow the energy to spead much more evenly before passing through the IGBT's. Also it exits the IGBT's on three equal cables before touching the motor terminals. I did not give this detail enough respect!

Well, that's a lesson! Guess I have to re-build it. The good news is I still have a backup Board (assuming it's ok but I think it is). I would like to repair the board I broke, but that's secondary. I'm on the lookout for another Littlefuse IGBT like the one in the picture. Or even another set of three - and I don't think they need to be 600 amps because I'm really not going to push it that hard. 400's would be fine. Anyone got some???

Thanks... -Ocean


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
You are using this for DC?

Paul has a genius level solution to the problems of making the IGBT's play nicely together

Each one has a 1 meter length of cable - this looks wrong - but it's actually genius - if one pulls more current then that length of cable is long enough to provide a delta voltage to balance them all
This is so simple that it is pure genius (after somebody has explained it)


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> You are using this for DC?
> 
> Paul has a genius level solution to the problems of making the IGBT's play nicely together
> ...


Duncan that's really interesting. Yes I'm running DC. Is it the MOTOR output cables you are referring to?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Yes the three that come from M+ go together at your motor - mine join up at the reversing contactor


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Yes the three that come from M+ go together at your motor - mine join up at the reversing contactor


I see - thanks Duncan. Ya, I think I can do something like that for the Motor Outputs. You know the gauge of copper sheet used to connect the CAP's? I'm looking at 18 guage 4x8 copper sheet to re-build the connection between the IGBT's inputs and Caps. 0.040" thick... thick enough???

Also I was looking at these IGBT's: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/igbt-trans...h=item441d927f72:g:nlMAAOSwjqVZE4nD:rk:2:pf:0

Because I killed one of my 600 amp IGBT's and they're upwards of 150 - 200 each, I was thinking to just run 400's - still limited to 1000 on the controller anyways, plus they're 1200v which feels a little safer. And I do have a future second controller in mind so maybe just save the 600's - or does someone have 3x 400's they'd trade for my two 600's???

Or does someone have an extra Littlefuse MG06300D laying around?

what do you think?


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

@Ocean, you will have to replace everything from driver chip towards the IGBT that was toasted. That includes driver chip, zener diodes and both PNP/NPN transistors. I recon resistors are good if they dont look burned. It is not that bad since Paul has other side of the circuit protected by transformers. More pain is the $$$ of IGBT replacement.

Pauls protection in my board is very definitive. I only managed to burn IGBTs when i intentionaly changed the code and cheated at desat connection.
I think root cause would be your desat is setup (physical setting) for 600A and you use 400A IGBTs. EDIT: Sorry mist the 600A IGBTs....

1. You should ask Paul how to set the HW protection to 400A. 

2. You should look at the code and set your current sensors transimpedance (mV/A) to correct value, because obviously the event didnt trip the sensors, and it should! You have this setup wrong. 
EDIT: Ok Paul says this is "amps per volt", but is just the equasion multiplied to 1V....

Do you have 3x current sensors, one for each IGBT? I see on my board no. 1 and no. 2 hall sensor signals go to the dsPic, but no. 3 goes only to comparator. Which IGBT was damaged? I bet it was 3rd.
Also when i removed 3rd current sensor and its comparator Pauls board worked perfectly fine. It uses 1 and 2 to calculate 3, but if you have 3 is uses it as additional protection - if set correctly!


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi Arber,

Thanks for the tip on replacing parts on the board. I will definitely try it. First I have to figure out the exact parts... but I will go for it.

Do you have any insight about the shift of +8 volts on that side of the board? The test points +15v -8v are shifted +8v. So the one reads ~23v and the other reads 0v. Do you think this would be corrected by replacing the parts from the damaged gate all the way back to and including the driver chip as you suggested?

Also I realized that the IGBT's I am using now are actually 300A not 600A I don't know why I thought that. But yes I was looking at getting 3 of these 400's that I put a link to in EBAY - do you see any reason they would not work with Paul's board? I could get a replacement Littlefuse for $122... but getting three new 400's for that price is appealing.

I do have three current sensors. I assumed they are all in play. The IGBT that was damaged is the one which connects to the Gate which is closest to the +15v -8v test points. Also this is the gate that was damaged.

Thanks for your input Arber!
-Ocean



arber333 said:


> @Ocean, you will have to replace everything from driver chip towards the IGBT that was toasted. That includes driver chip, zener diodes and both PNP/NPN transistors. I recon resistors are good if they dont look burned. It is not that bad since Paul has other side of the circuit protected by transformers. More pain is the $$$ of IGBT replacement.
> 
> Pauls protection in my board is very definitive. I only managed to burn IGBTs when i intentionaly changed the code and cheated at desat connection.
> I think root cause would be your desat is setup (physical setting) for 600A and you use 400A IGBTs. EDIT: Sorry mist the 600A IGBTs....
> ...


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

i noticed the uneven length M+ leads in the pictures of post #82, and wondered why you had done that--you even had the lengths measured and marked on the buss bars.

As you discovered it can be very difficult to get high power devices to share current evenly, so every little thing matters.

i also don't like the unequal distances from the capacitors to the device terminals--that can be another source of unequal sharing. i would want to wire it such that each device have it's own capacitor. There are ceramic caps that are made with the exact spacing to screw directly to the IGBT terminals.

Plus it appears that you are only using one half of the dual transistors IGBT devices. Maybe only the top one is blown and the bottom one is okay--wire it up to use the good half and press on.

Since you are running a DC motor, why use 3 dual devices anyway? Just one large single IGBT could be used to do the job. Less complexity of the control board and current sensors and all the mess of trying to get a 3-phase controller to play nice together for a DC application.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Kenny - yeah, I know. When I marked those bus bars it was because I was figuring their length for the installation as I did it. But you are right, and this is my first real experience with such high power devices. I will be re-building it more to the way it is described in Paul's design. Also though, Paul's design utilizes the center post of the IGBT, connecting it to the CAP Neg - although it's hard for me to understand why. But my setup didn't work at all until I made that connection. So he's actually using all three Posts.

But I got Paul's board, and it's set up with three IGBT's so that's what I have to work with. It's a pricey lesson, no doubt.

I'm still excited about it though. Right now I just want to know if I can use these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/igbt-trans...h=item441d927f72:g:nlMAAOSwjqVZE4nD:rk:2:pf:0

Because it's a pretty good deal and it would cost about the same to replace the single IGBT I burned.
-Ocean




kennybobby said:


> i noticed the uneven length M+ leads in the pictures of post #82, and wondered why you had done that--you even had the lengths measured and marked on the buss bars.
> 
> As you discovered it can be very difficult to get high power devices to share current evenly, so every little thing matters.
> 
> ...


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Hey I bought a used version of the Paul and Sabrina controller and need to the basics of how to hook it up. Like where and how doesnthe prechare resistor hook up?


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> Kenny - yeah, I know. When I marked those bus bars it was because I was figuring their length for the installation as I did it. But you are right, and this is my first real experience with such high power devices. I will be re-building it more to the way it is described in Paul's design. Also though, Paul's design utilizes the center post of the IGBT, connecting it to the CAP Neg - although it's hard for me to understand why. But my setup didn't work at all until I made that connection. So he's actually using all three Posts.
> 
> But I got Paul's board, and it's set up with three IGBT's so that's what I have to work with. It's a pricey lesson, no doubt.
> 
> ...


Yes gate driver is the first to go after IGBT since it is shorted out. 
Diodes you are talking about are zener diodes. The reason why you would get +8V are two diodes after the filter transformer. They are there to cut the voltage from 24V to +15V / -8V. 
Well if they are burned divider would behave differently now. I suggest you replace them as well. 

You should just replace every semiconductor with this gate. Usually caps and resistors are ok, but diodes and transistors are risky.

Again i would recommend you ask Paul how to tweak HW overcurrent protection. Also you need to be sure what the current sensor setting is. 
Usually that means changing current-sensor-amps-per-volt setting in serial interface. If it doesnt want to accept new value than this is out of scope in firmware. You will have to correct in firmware and upload it with Pickit3. 
Allways backup previous version somewhere!

A


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thanks Arber for the insight about the +8v shift. I will look on the board for those voltage splitting diodes. Any chance you have a list of the exact components on the Gate side of the board? I'm color blind so that does not help.... I was figuring on using a magnifying glass to figure out the numbers...

I've asked Paul a lot of questions lately so I'm going to let him be for a while... maybe once I get it put back together I will ask him about tweaking it as you suggested.

Meanwhile, I need to replace my burned out IGBT. $122 from Mouser. And it's a 300A Littlefuse which I can get... BUT I saw these on Ebay for only $40 each:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/igbt-trans...h=item441d927f72:g:nlMAAOSwjqVZE4nD:rk:2:pf:0

What do you think??? If they would be compatible, I'd get 3 and have a new set, and save the others for the next build.

Do you think they would work with Paul's board? I think they should but am I missing something?



arber333 said:


> Yes gate driver is the first to go after IGBT since it is shorted out.
> Diodes you are talking about are zener diodes. The reason why you would get +8V are two diodes after the filter transformer. They are there to cut the voltage from 24V to +15V / -8V.
> Well if they are burned divider would behave differently now. I suggest you replace them as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> Thanks Arber for the insight about the +8v shift. I will look on the board for those voltage splitting diodes. Any chance you have a list of the exact components on the Gate side of the board? I'm color blind so that does not help.... I was figuring on using a magnifying glass to figure out the numbers...
> 
> I've asked Paul a lot of questions lately so I'm going to let him be for a while... maybe once I get it put back together I will ask him about tweaking it as you suggested.
> 
> ...


I used 400A IGBTs in my built of Pauls board. So they should be good. It was DIP version. I have the BOM for that, but not for SMD variant. 
I am still convinced that you somehow did not use correct limit for current sensors. 

I think the best would be to connect all C protection wires (+) to a single point as well as all E wires (-). Then you disconnect other IGBTs, you only use one and try this for your DC motor. I am not sure if dsPic will mind if there is only a single current sensor on line.... It definitely has HW desat protection.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

arber333 said:


> I used 400A IGBTs in my built of Pauls board. So they should be good. It was DIP version. I have the BOM for that, but not for SMD variant.
> I am still convinced that you somehow did not use correct limit for current sensors.
> 
> I think the best would be to connect all C protection wires (+) to a single point as well as all E wires (-). Then you disconnect other IGBTs, you only use one and try this for your DC motor. I am not sure if dsPic will mind if there is only a single current sensor on line.... It definitely has HW desat protection.


Arber, I can barely keep up with your language. I'm working with a P&S DC Control Board that was built and populated by Paul. So I don't really know what DIP version is, or what BOM is, or SMD or dsPic. I know these are important terms but I don't really understand them. And I don't have a PICT.

I'd like the boards to work as they are. I assume Paul put the latest software on the board before he sent them to me (I got two at the same time) - about a year ago.

I have not even been able to successfully connect with Serial! And I have tried - really tried.

Paul indicated that he set the maximum current to 330 for each IGBT (if I remember correctly - somewhere back in my email thread). When I explained what happened to Paul, he suggested that the problem was a voltage spike, due to this formula : 

V = di/dt * L 

He said this:

"Under high current, you have a large di/dt (change in current over time). That can't be helped. The layout caused L to be too big (the stray inductance). L is related to the loop area of the current path. So,you had a large voltage spikes, which caused the insulation to break down inside the igbt, which took some of the driver sections with it on the board."

And when I look back at my layout, I can see what he means... because I had different length cables to different IGBT's both going in and out - my big mistake - and the IGBT that burned out was the one on the shortest path. I think perhaps it was not burned by overcurrent, but by a voltage spike going over 600v (the rating of the IGBT) and finding it's way up into the board taking the Gate driver with it.

ANYWAYS, what I hear you suggest is to try and make it work with 1 IGBT. Connecting all the current sensors wires together??? But if I do this, then I only have 300amps of potential @70degC since that's what I have left - two 300a IGBT's.

Yeah I want to make it work correctly. I understand your idea that it makes sense to have one DC motor driven by 1 big IGBT - but I don't have 1 big IGBT. Also I'm not so sure about hacking Paul's board until I really understand it better. For example, if the three current sensors are put all in parallel all to the same point, would than not confuse the board? Paul indicated that they need to be connected properly or the board see's a hardware fault.

ONE possibility I can see is to put all three current sensors on one single output from one IGBT - lining them all up in a row so they all sense the output of a single IGBT, but they are feeding back to the three sensor inputs on the board. Leaving the other IGBT's disconnected (either removed completely, or still plugged into the board but with no big cables connected). I sill wonder though if the Gates are sensing anything through their connection to the IGBT and if two were missing, would the Gate's feed back a HW fault to the brain of the board?

Thanks for your thoughts Arber - and also for the feedback on that Ebay listing.

-Ocean


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Before you make any changes, it would be best to build the controller exactly as Paul did in his instructible. It works very well. If you're struggling with the serial, you may need a different cable or to change the bit rate and format in your terminal program. I had a lot of trouble with that initially, and part of it was a crummy cable.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thanks JBMan I will have another look at my cable setup. Yeah I'm leaning towards those 400a IGBT's I can get 3 of them for the price of 1 Littlefuse (what I burned). Also the 400's are 1200v so maybe a little more resistant to possible voltage spikes.



jbman said:


> Before you make any changes, it would be best to build the controller exactly as Paul did in his instructible. It works very well. If you're struggling with the serial, you may need a different cable or to change the bit rate and format in your terminal program. I had a lot of trouble with that initially, and part of it was a crummy cable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Hi arber,

Have you had any experience with Paul's AC board lately


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

The idea with only using 1 device right now instead of 3, is that it is simpler to work the bugs out with less chance of blowing 3 devices. Once you get 1 channel working, then you will know how to set the second and third channels.

If anything, set the current limit to 50 Amps and see if you can get the motor to run, and monitor the voltage, current, temperature readings, current sharing, etc. to make sure that it all looks okay. Then increase the limit to 75A and repeat, etc. work your way up to higher power levels--don't try to stomp it with 330 Amp limits on a 300A device. That limit was obviously of no use with your 300A IGBT.

Every piece of wire or buss bar has an associated resistance and inductance and even capacitance depending upon neighboring wires. All those factors become important when dealing with high frequency switching of high power devices. Every build is different and requires tuning and adjustment to work--it's not a one-size-fits-all situation.


Pauls' explanation doesn't make any sense: The purpose of the controller is to regulate and control the voltage and current such that damaging "dI/dt" events do not occur no matter what inductance (motor plus wires) you may have. You should start with a slow ramp-up of current, i.e. setting the "dt" component to be a longer period of time.

Google is your friend for looking up unknown terms or acronyms.

One approach might be to get some help. Once you get it assembled maybe you can find a local EE-type with an oscilloscope to take a look at the waveforms and verify that it's working okay before hitting the highway. You don't want a failure as you pull out making a left turn across heavy traffic, etc...


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thanks for your advice Kenny. I am definitely getting help from this Forum! And I really appreciate it. I like your idea of reducing the current limit. Once I get the Serial working I will do that. Finding someone with an oscilliscope in my neighborhood? haha... maybe - edit: well actually I may know someone! Good idea. I would love to have one myself - but all the cheap little ones seem to have low voltage limits.... too low to see possible spikes etc. One day.



kennybobby said:


> The idea with only using 1 device right now instead of 3, is that it is simpler to work the bugs out with less chance of blowing 3 devices. Once you get 1 channel working, then you will know how to set the second and third channels.
> 
> If anything, set the current limit to 50 Amps and see if you can get the motor to run, and monitor the voltage, current, temperature readings, current sharing, etc. to make sure that it all looks okay. Then increase the limit to 75A and repeat, etc. work your way up to higher power levels--don't try to stomp it with 330 Amp limits on a 300A device. That limit was obviously of no use with your 300A IGBT.
> 
> ...


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> Arber, I can barely keep up with your language. I'm working with a P&S DC Control Board that was built and populated by Paul. So I don't really know what DIP version is, or what BOM is, or SMD or dsPic. I know these are important terms but I don't really understand them. And I don't have a PICT.
> 
> I'd like the boards to work as they are. I assume Paul put the latest software on the board before he sent them to me (I got two at the same time) - about a year ago.
> 
> ...


Hah, so glossary it is then

I say DIP when i mean through hole version of board
SMD is surface mount version what i think you have got now.
BOM is bill of materials
PICKit2 or 3 is Microchip interface that you need to upload new software to the brain of the board. 

What i mean is to use one IGBT to run your motor and also use one current sensor to provide feedback. Rest of them would be disconnected or at least not used. 
You would have to ask Paul abaout paralelling sensors, but i think that idea would cause current reduction because of paralel feedback. I think you would get like 1/3 of the current.

If you use only one IGBT you can fool desat detection on other (unconnected) drivers by connecting C1 + C2+ C3 in paralel and E1+E2+E3 also and then connect one single wire to DClink +HV and one wire to -HV. I guess ill IGBTs have the same potential when connected to DClink.

I have 3phase version of Pauls controller so at least two current sensors have to be connected for the logic to work. I dont know how it is for DC version.
Last time i tried to run both Leaf motor and my ACIM motor was in 2017. I got good control up to 100Vdc on both. Upwards from that i got terrible EMI that prevented Leaf motor from running with ABI encoder. I think i used too small capacitors on top of everything. I since have DClink taken apart and put that board aside to play with Volt/Ampera inverter. I have direct access to gates from there so i can just connect control board and drive it. 

Did software change in any way from 2017?

tnx

A


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

The PWM (pulse width modulation) gate driver signals are low voltage and could be monitored by almost any oscilloscope, as are the current feedback signals from the current sensor(s). Those are the signals of most interest--one is the command and the other is the response.

If you wanted to look at the high voltage for spikes for some reason, then a voltage divider circuit could be used to step the HV down to a level that the scope could handle. But there will be lots of noise and spikes in the HV due to the high frequency switching of the PWM. The current is more important to measure than the voltage--the controller doesn't care about voltage and will do whatever it takes to the voltage to make the current respond according to the command.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Thanks for glossary lesson Arber ;~)

Yes I have the surface mount version of the board. Actually it would be really great to have the Bill of Materials for that. I would like to pursue fixing my broken board eventually. I don't have a Pickit, but I don't think I really want to go there. Paul's board comes with the program, so I think just getting to Serial communications to work will be enough for me.

So I finally ordered THREE Semikrons for $40 each which seems like a great deal. They are 400 amp @ 25degC (max rating) so actually they are basically the same as the Littlefuse's that I have.

So I think I will stick with using all three IGBT's as the board is meant to. BUT I will be much more careful with my implementation.

Duncan suggested using long (1 meter) output cables to the motor (he attributed this idea to Paul as a brilliant way of helping to keep the current balanced between the three IGBT's) - it makes sense intuitively, because even if I make every effort (which I will) to keep the current path equal through the IGBT's, having long output cables spreads any resistance-difference (between the IGBT's) into a smaller percentage over the length of the cable. There may be even more to than that but it's pretty nebulous. But I like it.

Also, I will do as (I think Kenny suggested) to lower the Current Limits to like 50 amps to start out. I don't have a scope yet (thanks Kenny for the suggestion that I could use a cheap one to monitor the current sensors and PWM). BUT I do have a nice DC Clamp Meter. I can use this to monitor (and "hold") the highest current reading.

So my plan is to use the Clamp Meter on each output cable successively... with a 50 amp limit, I reach my top speed. and see what was the max current on each IGBT output. If they are different from each other, I need to make adjustments. If they are the same, I can be more aggressive on the pedal, and see again if there are differences. If no difference is detected, I can raise the current limit and do the test again.

But all this will happen after I rebuild the controller with much better / more balanced connections.

Paul is helping too - he has been really kind and patient with me. I really don't know if the software has changed since 2017.

Here's one question I've been wondering about. So on the IGBT's, Post 1 is the motor output. Post 2 has the Battery & Cap NEG. Post 3 (nearest the Board) has the Battery POS & Cap POS. So, if I want to put a "snubber cap" to help with voltage spike protection - would it go on Post 1&2 (parallel with main caps) or between Post 2&3 - or between Post 1&3?

The Snubber Cap that I have is designed to fit between two adjacent posts... but I'm not sure how it should be used in this application. Intuition tells me to put it between Post 1&2 (Motor Output & Cap NEG)

Thanks everyone!
-O




arber333 said:


> Hah, so glossary it is then
> 
> I say DIP when i mean through hole version of board
> SMD is surface mount version what i think you have got now.
> ...


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Ocean said:


> Intuition tells me to put it between Post 1&2 (Motor Output & Cap NEG)
> -O


OK not just intuition. I think of the motor on the Output Terminal Post #1 as feeding back voltage spikes to the IGBT's through this path. So if one leg of the Snubber Cap is connected here it would absorb that vibration. The other leg has to be the opposite right? So since the Motor Output is POS to the motor, the other foot of the Snubber Cap would go on the Bat NEG which is also the Cap NEG and also Post #2. Meanwhile, the Main Cap is between Post #3 (Bat POS input) and Post#2 / Main Cap NEG / Bat NEG.

But it's just theory and I'd like to hear other people here's theory on where snubber caps should be placed in the system. Should they parallel the Main Caps? Or between #3 POS Input and #1 Motor POS Output?

Just wondering...
-O


----------



## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Have you read Paul's guide for the 200kw motor controller build? Read this: https://www.instructables.com/id/200kW-AC-Motor-Controller-for-Electric-Car/

It has a lot of information on building this controller. It's the AC board, but the build is largely the same. I followed this when I built mine.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

What is the capacitance value and voltage and RMS current rating of the snubber caps that you have?

In a dual transistor IGBT the snubber cap is normally connected in parallel to the big electrolytic caps across the POS and NEG posts. (posts #2 and 3)

If the cap were placed as you intuit between the Output to the Motor and NEG, then the transistor would be switching into a capacitance load, which initially appears as a short circuit to NEG and would cause the IGBT to pop and blow.


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

kennybobby said:


> What is the capacitance value and voltage and RMS current rating of the snubber caps that you have?
> 
> In a dual transistor IGBT the snubber cap is normally connected in parallel to the big electrolytic caps across the POS and NEG posts.
> 
> If the cap were placed as you intuit between the Output to the Motor and NEG, then the transistor would be switching into a capacitance load, which appears as a short circuit and would cause the IGBT to pop and blow.



Since there are 3x IGBTs connected in paralel, i dont see a reason why not connect snubber cap over E2 and C2E1 terminals. If you have the space that is... 

Normally ring cap has enough reaction to serve also as a snubber, so DC link should be covered. On the phase side you may have large spikes due to different phase lines. 



Here i found some reference to the paralel IGBT design
https://library.e.abb.com/public/64...leling of IGBT modules_5SYA 2098_25082013.pdf


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

JBMan yes I've been studying the 200kw instructable. It's pretty amazing although I don't have the big ring Cap. But I see how the sheet copper plays an important role in spreading the current load evenly over the IGBT's - so I will be using sheet copper in the re-build.

The Snubber Caps I have (4 of them) are ASC x329s 8MFD 600vDC (datasheet PDF attached)

Kennybobby - so I hear you say if the Snubber is put between Post #1 (Motor Output) and Post #2 (Neg) it would be experienced momentarily as a short to the Batter Neg? But since I'm running a DC motor, the Motor Output is a short to the Battery Neg through the motor anyways... so ? Do you mean just from charging up the Snubber Caps when the energy is let through the IGBT's? This event would cause the IGBT to blow? I find it hard to believe that the snubber caps could absorb enough amps to blow a 400 amp IGBT even if I stomped on the pedal - BUT I may be totally wrong about this given the fact I already blew one!

I attached two PDF's - one is a brief about snubber's in general - which I try to understand but is a bit nebulous to me, and the other is the datasheet for my particular ASC snubbers.

Maybe they won't be necessary, but if they would help I want to use them which is why I'm asking - how to use them properly.

Is it correct to say that the "Ripple" current / voltage is coming back from the motor through Post #1 Motor Output? If this is so, would it not make sense to put one leg of the snubber on Post #1? Maybe the other leg should be on Post #3 the POS Input? Hmmm.... this would put one snubber leg on BAT POS (after contactor closes) and the other on Motor Output which is actually a short through the motor to Bat Neg.... and This is actually what I initially had in mind - to put the snubbers between Post#1 and #3. But I'm not sure if it's the right thing...

The IGBT_Snubbers PDF has a diagram showing this as one of the possible installations - although their IGBT diagram is not quite the same as what's printed on my IGBT's.

Arber - that PDF of paralleling IGBT's is intense. Over my head but I do begin to get an understanding of the subtle variations that have major impacts - like even heat dissipation of the IGBT's, and the variation of impedence between the paths of current through each IGBT. I think this is why I blew mine in the first place, and also why Duncan suggested long output cables.

So Arber, I here you are saying you think putting a snubber on each of the IGBT output terminals, Post #1 (C2E1 Output) and Post #2 (E2 Bat Neg) would help absorb ripple coming back from the motor through the different long cables...? Again I'm running a DC motor so the phases are the same, but the small variation in impedance of the current path's will exist from the three IGBT outputs to the motor - although hopefully minimized by the long cables.

In this configuration it seems to me like both legs of the snubber start with no potential difference - since at Post #2 there is a direct connection to Bat NEG and at Post #1 is a short to Bat NEG through the motor. So the Snubber would not see any voltage difference until the IGBT let's through current - and even then the voltage difference would have to be what's left between the POST #1 and the impedence of the motor - as if the motor was a resistance - which it is. So I would expect to see some voltage there but not the whole pack voltage ... until ripple current/ voltage came back from the motor... I'm fairly new at this but my brain is trying to work here...

So Kennybobby do you still think there's a possibility of blowing the IGBT with a snubber cap connected to Post #1 (Motor Output) and Post #2 (Bat Neg)? or has the situation changed from how you were thinking about it?

Really just trying to get clear here. But the conversation is really exercising my brain so that's good!


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ocean said:


> It's pretty amazing although I don't have the big ring Cap.
> 
> The Snubber Caps I have (4 of them) are ASC x329s 8MFD 600vDC (datasheet PDF attached)


Argh! It just dawned on me You are using DClink elcaps without snubbers! Thought you have powering film cap. Well of course you broke IGBT. It was not amps that killed it. It was sudden dV/dt. Since there wasnt anything absorbing transients from sharp switching. 

Just put 3x 1.5uF or 2uF snubber caps each on its IGBT. Contacts to use are C1 - E2. If you have spare snubbers and space in controller you can put snubbers to E1/C2 and E2 which can help smooth output on that phase. It is not neccessary though. First snubber is essential though!

A


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Ocean
I suspect that you are about the same level of electronic knowledge as I am

AND I would not dare to deviate from Paul's drawings and BOM!!

I recommend getting all the same parts as Paul used including that big round capacitor and building it exactly as he shows

I certainly do not have the knowledge and understanding to vary anything - for me it is "Monkey See Monkey Do"

That big round capacitor looks awesome!


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi Ocean
> I suspect that you are about the same level of electronic knowledge as I am
> 
> AND I would not dare to deviate from Paul's drawings and BOM!!
> ...


I am currently in the same boat, with the level knowledge side and am trying to build the power stage of Pauls prebuilt AC controller board, 

It seems that this Round Cap is very limited availability and only available in the US ,which is strange as the manufacturer is here in the UK, I ask Paul if he could get one and send it to me, he sent me pictures of a alternative readily Capacitor, setup (I can up load Pics if anyone want to see them)

like you say I darn't deviate from the picture

I am still confused as when snubber caps are used, i dont see any on Pauls AC board


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

zippy500 said:


> I am currently in the same boat, with the level knowledge side and am trying to build the power stage of Pauls prebuilt AC controller board,
> 
> It seems that this Round Cap is very limited availability and only available in the US ,which is strange as the manufacturer is here in the UK, I ask Paul if he could get one and send it to me, he sent me pictures of a alternative readily Capacitor, setup (I can up load Pics if anyone want to see them)
> 
> ...


That ring cap has ultra low internal resistance and in effect serve as snubber itself. Copper plates are used to lower the inductance that results when cables or linear tracks are used. 

If you use different configuration DC link you have to use some form of snubbers to account for dV/dt transients that can arise to 1400V spikes from 200Vdc system!


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Ocean said:


> ...
> The Snubber Caps I have (4 of them) are ASC x329s 8MFD 600vDC (datasheet PDF attached)
> 
> Kennybobby - so I hear you say if the Snubber is put between Post #1 (Motor Output) and Post #2 (Neg) it would be experienced momentarily as a short to the Batter Neg? But since I'm running a DC motor, the Motor Output is a short to the Battery Neg through the motor anyways... so ? Do you mean just from charging up the Snubber Caps when the energy is let through the IGBT's? This event would cause the IGBT to blow? I find it hard to believe that the snubber caps could absorb enough amps to blow a 400 amp IGBT even if I stomped on the pedal - BUT I may be totally wrong about this given the fact I already blew one!
> ...


Circuit 3 in your snubbers pdf shows the connection between POS and NEG. The other configurations are using combinations of R, C and D to restrict the discharge during switch-off of the device.

A motor is not a short circuit to NEG--it has resistance and inductance which limit and restrict current flow when a voltage is applied.

On the other hand, a capacitor has NO LIMIT or restriction to current flow when a voltage is suddenly applied such as in switching off to on. That is why precharge resistors are added in the path between the pack and the controller--to limit the in-rush current that the capacitors would experience at start up.

Capacitors and inductors do have a current limiting property related to the frequency of an oscillating (e.g. AC) voltage applied to them--it is known as reactance and is used to calculate the impedance of a circuit. Impedance is like the AC resistance of a circuit, and is used similar to how we look at the DC resistance of a circuit.

So no i haven't changed my mind, and you will blow the capacitor for sure, and very likely the IGBT also if you connect the snubber on the output of the IGBT to the motor.

The snubber is a protection device for the IGBT. So intuitively it would be connected across the IGBT. Putting it on the output across the motor--how would that protect the IGBT?

Wikipedia can also be your friend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snubber


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

arber333 said:


> Argh! It just dawned on me You are using DClink elcaps without snubbers! Thought you have powering film cap. Well of course you broke IGBT. It was not amps that killed it. It was sudden dV/dt. Since there wasnt anything absorbing transients from sharp switching.
> 
> Just put 3x 1.5uF or 2uF snubber caps each on its IGBT. Contacts to use are C1 - E2. If you have spare snubbers and space in controller you can put snubbers to E1/C2 and E2 which can help smooth output on that phase. It is not neccessary though. First snubber is essential though!
> 
> A


Yes Arber - that's what Paul was saying - the dV/dt generated a high voltage spike that killed the IGBT and took the Gate with it. Now I'm realizing it happened not only because of my layout (uneven cable lengths and therefore unbalanced current flow) - but perhaps mainly because of inadequate Caps and lack of snubbers. Boy I really Blew It!!! haha... literally.

OK so here you say the proper position for the Snubber is parallel to the main Caps. But you also say that a Snubber between the Output Post and the Bat NEG post would help smooth transients from the phases. BUT I am not running an A/C motor. I am running DC - so they are all the same phase. Do you think a Snubber in the latter position would help even when all the Phases are the same?

Kennybobby I'm not Exactly clear on what position you are saying would kill the Snubber and possibly the IGBT. I was proposing the same as what Arber is saying above - to have one leg of the Snubber on the Motor Output Post (C2/E1) (aka Post #1), and the other leg of the Snubber on Bat Neg Post (E2) (aka Post #2). This is the position which Arber says would smooth transients on the output. Do you agree?

On the other hand Arber is saying the essential position for the Snubber is in parallel with the Main Cap - between Bat POS Input (C1) (aka Post #3) and Bat NEG (E2) (aka Post #2). Do you agree?

I'm learning from both of you - and I'm not quite sure if there's a conflict of theory here...


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Ocean said:


> ...
> 
> Kennybobby I'm not Exactly clear on what position you are saying would kill the Snubber and possibly the IGBT. I was proposing the same as what Arber is saying above - to have one leg of the Snubber on the Motor Output Post (C2/E1) (aka Post #1), and the other leg of the Snubber on Bat Neg Post (E2) (aka Post #2). This is the position which Arber says would smooth transients on the output. Do you agree?
> 
> On the other hand Arber is saying the essential position for the Snubber is in parallel with the Main Cap - between Bat POS Input (C1) (aka Post #3) and Bat NEG (E2) (aka Post #2). Do you agree?


No on the first one--did you not read my post above where i said you will blow the cap and the IGBT in this configuration? There is no need to worry about any so-called transients on the Output, the motor is not what needs snubber protection.

Yes on the second one. This is the only correct configuration.

You kinda got me scared with your questions, but i realize that this may not be easy to understand.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

kennybobby said:


> No on the first one--did you not read my post above where i said you will blow the cap and the IGBT in this configuration? There is no need to worry about any so-called transients on the Output, the motor is not what needs snubber protection.
> 
> Yes on the second one. This is the only correct configuration.
> 
> You kinda got me scared with your questions, but i realize that this may not be easy to understand.


Thank you - yes I did read it but I wanted to make sure I understood you correctly - especially since Arber seems to think otherwise. And I do want to understand as best as I can. 

So the way I understand you - the reason it would blow the Snubber and the IGBT if connected between Post #1 and Post #2, is that, when the IGBT switches open, even though the current has a path through the motor (resistive path) - there would also be a path into the snubber (with no resistance) and so it would charge the snubber instantly with unlimited current, and this could potentially be enough to blow the IGBT and the snubber as well.

Whereas, in the proper configuration, both the Main Cap and the Snubber are in parallel across Post #2 (Bat NEG) and Post #3 (Bat POS Input) - and they are both charged by the pre-charge resistor prior to closing the main contactor... and the Main Cap provides the extra instantaneous power while the snubber suppresses voltage spikes generated by the switching of the IGBT.

Am I getting close?


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

You got it right on the money.

It's when the IGBT switches "closed" that current flows thru the device and to the motor; when it switches "open" it is turning off the current flow.

Shutting off high current leaves a big magnetic field surrounding the motor windings, which immediately begins to collapse and induces a high current in the winding that generates a large voltage that will destroy the IGBT if there is no path provided to dissipate the energy. The large body diodes in the IGBT and the snubber cap from POS to NEG provides this current path.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

kennybobby said:


> You got it right on the money.
> 
> It's when the IGBT switches "closed" that current flows thru the device and to the motor; when it switches "open" it is turning off the current flow.
> 
> Shutting off high current leaves a big magnetic field surrounding the motor windings, which immediately begins to collapse and induces a high current in the winding that generates a large voltage that will destroy the IGBT if there is no path provided to dissipate the energy. The large body diodes in the IGBT and the snubber cap from POS to NEG provides this current path.


OK so now I feel we (I) am getting somewhere. So when the IGBT switches open (stopping current flow), the field in the motor coils breaks down, creating a current which sends a high voltage back towards the IGBT. 

Looking at the IGBT diagram, I see the Diode over the Gate connecting Post #3 to Post #1 (Gate controlled by Pin #4). The voltage / current coming back from the motor would pass through this "freewheel diode" - and thus be absorbed by the POS leg of the Main Capacitor and Snubber Cap on Post #3. Is that correct? 

Is the High Voltage coming back from the Field Breakdown in the motor also accompanied by High Current? You said it induces a high current in the winding which produces a high voltage - but does the high current also make its way back to the IGBT? It seems to me like it would.

I can imagine a large Cap absorbing High voltage and Current, but a small cap like a snubber could only absorb a small amount of current - even while handling High Voltage. So now I see a real need for a Large High Voltage Cap. Am I correct in how I see this?

Is the Voltage Spike caused by the switching of the IGBT a separate concern which is also handled by the Caps / Snubber - or is it the same exact concern we are talking about with the HV coming back from the motor Field Breakdown?

I think I understand (from Arber and Paul and some documentation) that current moving unevenly through parallel connected IGBT's also causes these voltage spikes. Perhaps when the current chooses an uneven path, it drains from other parts of the path, and in that instant a field breakdown occurs which generates a high voltage spike. Is that possible?

I begin to see how sensitive the situation can be.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

IGBT Diagram for reference.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

You already do have a large HV cap--it's those big blue electrolytic cans. What is the capacitance and voltage rating of those, do you have a datasheet for them?

The body diodes are generally sized equal to the current rating of the transistor in the IGBT, so a 400A device will have 400A diodes, that will be listed on the datasheet.

do you happen to know the PWM frequency of your controller that the IGBTs are being commanded?

Your "small" snubber caps have a peak current rating of 508 Amps, so not so small after all. They are rated for 600 VDC and have a 20.7A RMS current rating (ripple current at 1kHz) according to their datasheet, so it appears you may have plenty of margin there depending upon the PWM frequency. Can't judge a part by its size...

p.s. notice here where they indicate to connect the snubber caps:
http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/SCD.pdf


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Kenny - Yeah I mean I was hoping those Blue Caps would be enough - but I guess these things are relative so I don't really know what constitutes "big enough" to handle the field break-down current coming back from the Motor - especially since I don't really know what kind of amps to expect back from the motor. These Caps are what I had to work with - they are probably 10 - 15 years old.

I did find this datasheed
http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/500C.pdf

I do see what you mean about the peak amperage of those snubbers - seems pretty good. But what about overall capacity? Is there a certain overall capacity of wattage that needs to be absorbed from the field breakdown current of the motor? Is that a secondary purpose of the large caps? Or could the snubbers handle it alone? What if you had a setup with no large Caps, and only Snubbers? Just curious...

I don't know about the frequency used on my board. I've heard Paul refer to it as "Spread Spectrum" and it makes a sound kind of like "rushing water" when it's working.

Yeah I see where it says the Snubbers are mounted on C1 to E2 on that datasheet you referred to. Kinda wish I had done that in the first place. But again, if I had done that, and my first test was successful, I might be out on the freeway punching it under a more heavy load, and experience my breakdown out there due to the uneven current paths between the IGBT's - perhaps a much more severe breakdown.... (meaning consequences) So still I'm good with where I'm at... just looking forward to build it so much better this time around...



kennybobby said:


> You already do have a large HV cap--it's those big blue electrolytic cans. What is the capacitance and voltage rating of those, do you have a datasheet for them?
> 
> The body diodes are generally sized equal to the current rating of the transistor in the IGBT, so a 400A device will have 400A diodes, that will be listed on the datasheet.
> 
> ...


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Countermeasures*

The bottom transistor's body diode handles the induced current from the collapsing field across the motor windings by providing a "freewheeling" path to dissipate the current.

The snubber capacitor diverts away from the IGBT the induced current and high voltage transients produced by the collapsing field (during switch off) in the battery pack wire leads to the IGBT POS terminal. These transients are caused by the stray inductance of the wire leads.

The big blue caps provide an energy storage supply in close proximity to the IGBTs to provide nearly instant current to the motor when the IGBT switches on.

For an AC motor the controller uses PWM switching to generate a sinusoidal current waveform to excite the windings at the frequency needed for the desired speed.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

*Re: Countermeasures*

I'm getting a pretty good lesson here... Thanks Kenny! Also Arber, Duncan, Zippy, JBman.... everyone's feedback in this thread has really helped me to learn and gain a much deeper understanding of what I'm working with. Even if I'm still just scratching the surface - I feel much more confident. I'm sure I will have more questions later.

Now I'm just waiting for my new IGBT's (3 identical Semikron 400's), as well as some other bits and pieces to make the new build...

...using sheet copper to connect the DC Bus POS and NEG across the IGBT's as Paul does in his instructable.... upgrading the pre-charge resister (200 ohm 50watt aluminum shell - should give me 120 volts / 150 in <3 sec).... using the Snubbers I have, possibly upgrading the main caps.... using long (3-4 foot) individual cables on the motor output terminals... and building everything with as much symmetry as possible... and, assuming I can get the Serial Comm to work, lowering the Max Current and testing for even current sharing between the IGBT's, as I slowly raise the max current and make adjustments as necessary.

It occurred to me one place to make adjustments to tune the current sharing is in the long cables. For example, if the center IGBT is taking more amps, make that cable a little longer (add a piece)... what do you think?

Cheers and thanks everyone!
-Ocean



kennybobby said:


> The bottom transistor's body diode handles the induced current from the collapsing field across the motor windings by providing a "freewheeling" path to dissipate the current.
> 
> The snubber capacitor diverts away from the IGBT the induced current and high voltage transients produced by the collapsing field (during switch off) in the battery pack wire leads to the IGBT POS terminal. These transients are caused by the stray inductance of the wire leads.
> 
> ...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: Countermeasures*



Ocean said:


> I'm getting a pretty good lesson here...sharing is in the long cables. For example, if the center IGBT is taking more amps, make that cable a little longer (add a piece)... what do you think?
> 
> Cheers and thanks everyone!
> -Ocean


What do I think? Hmmm, been designing controllers since the 80's. I believe you are using 3 dual IGBT's for 3 phase and paralleling the 3 pairs on the motor side with long leads for a DC motor.

Yes?

Sounds hokey to me. Use 3 IGBT's that are from the same batch when paralleling 2 or more. That helps with load sharing. Use a DC clamp on 

meter to measure the current thru each of three motor leads to verify they are close. Connect your scope across the lower transistor in each pair to verify the switching rise and fall times are less than one microsecond and the VCE is going down to no more than a volt. And it's a good idea to used less than 67% of the device rating. Thus a 400 amp IGBT would be set to operate at no more than 268 amps. 

And the buss capacitors go across the Battery + and -. Snubbers go across the C to E of the transistors. I've never had to use snubbers.


And the upper transistor anti-paralled diode is the free wheeling diode for the motor. The gate of the upper transistor is not switched on and thus has its gate leads tied together in the air or has a negative 8-15 volts on its gate at all times.


Have fun.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

*Re: Countermeasures*

Thanks for your input Russco...

My P&S Board is a DC board based on his AC board - so it has the three parallel IGBT drivers - but I think they are all controlled by the same driver so they all operate in parallel equally... if I understand you correctly.

Yes the "Upper" gate - the one controlled by Pin #6 is not used as I understand it. Pin's #6 and #7 are tied together on the Board where they are plugged in.

Yes I will be using a DC Clamp Meter to watch the amperage coming from each of the three IGBT output cables going down to my DC motor. 

As I mentioned sometime earlier, my plan for tuning the system is to lower the Max Current setting in Paul's board (with Serial Comm)... to perhaps 50A per IGBT.... then bring the car up to it's max speed - gently at first, and watch for the max current I see on each cable. If they are very close - (how close???) - I would try being more aggressive with the pedal. If the max current I see on the clamp meter is still very close for each cable, then I would raise the Max Current Setting on the board - maybe up to 75 amps - and do the test again.

But if the current sharing is not close enough, how do I tune the system?

This is where my question about adding length to one of the cables comes into play. If I build it as completely symmetrical as I can, and I still have an unacceptable imbalance in the current sharing, then how do I tune it? The most accessible / easily changeable variable it seems to me - is the length of the output cables. Making one cable longer would add impedence to that current path - and therefore lower the current sharing for that cable's IGBT.... correct?

That's what I was asking about.

Well, hopefully the IGBT's I have coming will be from the same batch. I just don't know. But I think there's a good chance.

I agree with your concept of limiting the Max Current to 2/3's of the Max Current Rating of the IGBT - that sounds like a good safety measure.

I will be checking with a friend to see if he has a scope and if he's willing to watch the switching of my IGBT's - that would be nice to verify.

So Ruscco - what's so hokey about it??? ;~)



Russco said:


> What do I think? Hmmm, been designing controllers since the 80's. I believe you are using 3 dual IGBT's for 3 phase and paralleling the 3 pairs on the motor side with long leads for a DC motor.
> 
> Yes?
> 
> ...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: Countermeasures*



Ocean said:


> Thanks for your input Russco...
> 
> My P&S Board is a DC board based on his AC board - so it has the three parallel IGBT drivers - but I think they are all controlled by the same driver so they all operate in parallel equally... if I understand you correctly.
> 
> So Ruscco - what's so hokey about it??? ;~)


I have not seen the schematic and layout of the P and S controller. If all three gates start at the same point where they are produced and then branch out to three drivers and to the gates, there really isn't anything you can do regarding sharing. It may share and it may not. That's why it's good to have a bunch of IGBT's and select the best batch to share.

Back in the old days it was common to have a small resistance in each emitter lead. If a transistor would, for example, hog too much current, its emitter resistor would have a greater emitter drop, which would raise the b-e voltage, which would decrease the base drive. But, that was with bipolar transistors, and a fet drive, as in an IGBT may not work this way.

Yes, start small. Bench test with a low voltage and a small motor, like a 12 volt battery and auto heater blower motor. Check each IGBT separately enabled. Then, move up to the higher car voltage with a 100 watt light bulb wired in series with the car motor armature lead and check the wave forms across collector to emitter of the lower transistor. Have the car in neutral and the accelerator pot and the included contactor coil contact right in your hand so you can energize and de-energize the controller from outside the car, while you watch the scope.

When you work up to all three gates enabled at current limit, observe Vce of the lower transistor for the overshoot above battery voltage. Using a scope probe with a short 6 inch ground lead, the overshoot could be 100 volts over battery voltage. Be sure it is lower than the buss capacitor voltage rating. And use 105 degree caps, not 85.

Don't forget to verify the gates of the upper three transistors are at zero or a negative voltage. And use lotsa white heat sink compound covering 100% of the IGBT bases.

Hokey? I've always placed the semiconductors 1/8" apart from each other and bused the units together so bus and wire lengths are as SHORT as possible. Same with the 00 wire from batteries and motor. Making it LONG is hokey. 

Have fun.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

*Re: Countermeasures*

I am definitely having FUN, thank you Russco!

Let me just clarify real quick that my board - what I have - was built by Paul of P&S Power Electronics. It's HIS board - his DC version of his AC board. I will attach a pic of his DC Board layout for your interest.

And it was actually his idea - I got through Duncan but Paul recently affirmed - that using long output cables helps to balance the current between the IGBT's. And I believe it has to do with impedence but I don't really know the math that well.

So maybe it looks hokey, but I believe it is brilliant.

Here for everyone is a couple links I found interesting on the Paralleling of IGBT's. Mostly over my head, but lots of good usable information. Interesting point on IGBT spacing vs. Heat Sink Efficiency vs. IGBT ratings at the end of the article.

http://www.panhao.com/Filedownload/IGBT_PH.pdf
plus two attachments

But I will keep in mind your testing scenario. Seems like all very good points!
-Ocean



Russco said:


> I have not seen the schematic and layout of the P and S controller. If all three gates start at the same point where they are produced and then branch out to three drivers and to the gates, there really isn't anything you can do regarding sharing. It may share and it may not. That's why it's good to have a bunch of IGBT's and select the best batch to share.
> 
> Back in the old days it was common to have a small resistance in each emitter lead. If a transistor would, for example, hog too much current, its emitter resistor would have a greater emitter drop, which would raise the b-e voltage, which would decrease the base drive. But, that was with bipolar transistors, and a fet drive, as in an IGBT may not work this way.
> 
> ...


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*IGBT terminals and pins.*

@Russco you don't seem to understand the layout, or maybe i don't... The IGBT is a half H-bridge or totem-pole configuration.

The upper or top transistor, T1, is controlled by the gate pin 4. The upper collector, C1, is terminal 3, which connects to the Battery Pack Positive. The emitter, E1, is terminal 1 and pin 5, which connects to the motor. And terminal 2 is emitter E2 of the lower or bottom transistor, which is the return from the motor and connects to the Battery Pack Negative. 

Gate 2 is pin 6 for the lower transistor, and is tied together to E2 pin 7, so T2 is not used except that the body diode of the lower transistor provides the freewheeling current path.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: IGBT terminals and pins.*



kennybobby said:


> @Russco you don't seem to understand the layout, or maybe i don't... The IGBT is a half H-bridge or totem-pole configuration.
> 
> The upper or top transistor, T1, is controlled by the gate pin 4. The upper collector, C1, is terminal 3, which connects to the Battery Pack Positive. The emitter, E1, is terminal 1 and pin 5, which connects to the motor. And terminal 2 is emitter E2 of the lower or bottom transistor, which is the return from the motor and connects to the Battery Pack Negative.
> 
> Gate 2 is pin 6 for the lower transistor, and is tied together to E2 pin 7, so T2 is not used except that the body diode of the lower transistor provides the freewheeling current path.


I see. So, both transistors are in series with Emitter pointing DOWN, battery + to TOP transistor Collector, battery- to Bottom transistor Emitter.

That makes sense. And Motor across Bottom transistor. And the BOTTOM transistor as the free wheeling diode.

That's backwards, as far as convention goes, but it should work just fine. Every controller (I have studied) places the motor across the top transistor with its built in anti-parallel diode for the free wheeling diode and the PWM control is to the bottom transistor.

Rather than pulling the motor low when PWM goes high, Paul's circuit pulls the motor high.

I guess 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.

Interesting. Live and learn. Thanks for that.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: IGBT terminals and pins.*

Here's a little information on my controllers, where I believe in cramming it all in as close as possible with no long leads: 

This particular controller, made in 2013, for my EV at the time, a 1971 VW Super, was comprised of quan. 2 Powerex CM600-HA's IGBT's, rated at 600 amps each. Two Powerex hocky puck fast recovery diodes provided the motor free wheeling path. Buss capacitors were the same manufacturer and series as Paul uses, but 2200 uf, 200 volt units.

The controller operated at 8 Khz. and was good for 800 amps max. Worked well, but I junked the POS VW and my present EV came with a Curtis 1221. The 1221 works fine, but I am limited to 40 CALB cells, about 133 volts. I would like to add more cells, but all commercial controllers are too large to fit in the space available. 

So, I may start making controllers again this year. This time, I would use dual IGBT's, using 1/2 of the module for the free wheeling diode. I would use one Powerex DU600 amp IGBT and have a maximum current of 450 amps, or have another model with two DU400 amp IGBT's for a maximum current of 600 amps. Same bus capacitor network, same electronic circuitry, but with liquid cooling. Test have shown liquid cooling will have a IGBT rise of only 10 degrees F. This means the controller wlil last much longer than with air cooling.

So, that's my idea of a controller. Use dual IGBT's, electrolytic buss capacitors, a simple hardware type PWM/driver circuit that fits on a 2" x 4" circuit board with a flat aluminum base plate with ALL bus bars protruding out the SAME end of the enclosure. Measurements around 6"W X 3"H x 11"L.

And that's my plan.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

A good cheap source of igbt's might be...EV's (either BEV or (P)HEV)

like the nissan Leaf inverter, you have a nice housing, including cooling, big beefy igbt package, etc.

especially all the (plugin)hybrids that end up in the scrapyard...who's using the inverters...should be cheap...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

Anyone have any links on the P & S three phase or three phase to DC controllers? Schematics or assembly instructions would be good. Eco has lotsa info., but 700 pages with broken links? P & S web site has nothing on assembly.
Thank you.


----------



## RadioChris123 (Feb 23, 2016)

Hello good people. I just picked up one of these DC controller boards and have it setup on my bench. I'm not able to communicate to it with realterm. Is there a data sheet for this thing? I got some info from Paul, and as genius as he is, he seems to not have all the info in one place. I was sent code but it won't compile. 

The relays click but I can't see anything in realterm. I used 19200 because that was in the code as a comment, but no luck. 

Also my board looks different from everyone else's, looks like a new version (ver 1.1).


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Russco said:


> Anyone have any links on the P & S three phase or three phase to DC controllers? Schematics or assembly instructions would be good. Eco has lotsa info., but 700 pages with broken links? P & S web site has nothing on assembly.
> Thank you.




maybe we should start a Paul AC controller thread. I have seen the eco thread , yes its long and the main person thingstodo is the main contributor, 

think paul directs people to the instructables site

Paul does seem to answer email questions that I send him.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

RadioChris123 said:


> Hello good people. I just picked up one of these DC controller boards and have it setup on my bench.
> 
> Also my board looks different from everyone else's, looks like a new version (ver 1.1).


Is that a Leaf AC controller with a Paul control board? 

That's one hunk of controller.


----------



## RadioChris123 (Feb 23, 2016)

Russco, It's a stripped down Prius Hybrid controller. I'm using the chssis because it has the liquid cooling built in. I'm also using the 3 caps and the IGBT. I'm also using a Prius throttle. It puts out 0-5v (actually 1.6 to 4.9v).

Zippy500, It might be a good idea for us to compile information, I'm not sure a forum is the best place though because it may turn into a 700 chat page. lol. 

I did get Realterm to work. Operator error I guess. Unfortunately, now I'm not getting pwm out to the IGBTs. 

I started a word document with information I've collected. I am slowly compiling it into a data sheet, but its minimal at best.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey Radio I have one of Pauls DC Control boards from early 2018 - yeah yours looks a little different - has the USB port! Jealous!

One thing that came up for me working with mine was - the throttle. Hall effect throttle 0-5v. BUT his board is expecting to see something like 0.5v at the minimum. Yours starts at 1.6v so the controller will think you have the gas pedal pushed when turning it on, and it will automatically lock down all the IGBT's.

So you can ask him for the command to change the minimum throttle input ... I think it's "t-min-rc" plus a value but I don't know what would be the right value for you.

-Ocean



RadioChris123 said:


> Russco, It's a stripped down Prius Hybrid controller. I'm using the chssis because it has the liquid cooling built in. I'm also using the 3 caps and the IGBT. I'm also using a Prius throttle. It puts out 0-5v (actually 1.6 to 4.9v).
> 
> Zippy500, It might be a good idea for us to compile information, I'm not sure a forum is the best place though because it may turn into a 700 chat page. lol.
> 
> ...


----------



## RadioChris123 (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks Ocean. I'll look into that. currently I'm stuck at my test point voltages not what they should be. 

The -8v Test Point shows -1v and the 15v Test Point shows 8v. I sent Paul an email about it and am waiting for a response. Do any of y'all have an idea? I'm not sure how the voltages are generated. is there a schematic floating around?


ALSO, does anyone have experience making a Wiki? that might be a good place to store our collected data.


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

RadioChris123 said:


> Thanks Ocean. I'll look into that. currently I'm stuck at my test point voltages not what they should be.
> 
> The -8v Test Point shows -1v and the 15v Test Point shows 8v. I sent Paul an email about it and am waiting for a response. Do any of y'all have an idea? I'm not sure how the voltages are generated. is there a schematic floating around?
> 
> ...


Nope, your voltages are incorrect. I asked Paul for a schematic of the DC controller that uses the AC design. His reply:

"You need designspark pcb to read it. IT's free."
He sent two pdf links that didn't work for me. 
Email Paul and he'll send you the links.

Please let the rest of us know your success.


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

RadioChris123 said:


> Thanks Ocean. I'll look into that. currently I'm stuck at my test point voltages not what they should be.
> 
> The -8v Test Point shows -1v and the 15v Test Point shows 8v. I sent Paul an email about it and am waiting for a response. Do any of y'all have an idea? I'm not sure how the voltages are generated. is there a schematic floating around?
> 
> ...


Yes! to a wiki. There is one for earlier incarnations of Paul's boards: https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Open_ReVolt
Maybe it could be added onto.

I too am interested in files (PCB, code, etc). I just ordered one of the DC boards to rebuild and older cougar controller that died because of a defective IGBT. I've asked Paul but I'd be happy to get info for assembly in advance of his reply.

Does anyone know the 24V current requirement? Or what 12V-24V converters are you all using?


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

DC controller schematics and code (with Paul's permission)


----------



## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

The software isn't compiling? What I use to compile the DC code is MPLab 8.83 (it's an older version, before they moved to mplab x), and the C30 compiler. Here's where I got the compiler from Microchip:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mplabc30-v3_31-windows-installer.exe

You can use MPLab X too, but I am used to 8.83. Yes please feel free to email me if you have any questions. 

When you are doing the voltage test, and you get -1v and 8v, what are you using for the control board power supply? It should be around 23vDC when measured from the -8.2v to the +15v test points. Which pdf links were you not able to get?


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: P&S Controller schematic?*

Looks like designspark pcb is proprietary software for Windoze to design and layout a board. Well i don't want to design and layout a board, i just want to see what the circuit is trying to do, and i don't use windoze...

Can somebody just post up a .jpg or .pdf file with the schematic for simple viewing and review? It's nearly impossible to troubleshoot a circuit without a schematic.


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

*Re: P&S Controller schematic?*



kennybobby said:


> Looks like designspark pcb is proprietary software for Windoze to design and layout a board. Well i don't want to design and layout a board, i just want to see what the circuit is trying to do, and i don't use windoze...
> 
> Can somebody just post up a .jpg or .pdf file with the schematic for simple viewing and review? It's nearly impossible to troubleshoot a circuit without a schematic.


Here you go


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Does this look like what you posted up in the .pdf? If so then no wonder nobody can figure this shtuf out--it's unreadable and useless...


----------



## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

kennybobby said:


> Does this look like what you posted up in the .pdf? If so then no wonder nobody can figure this shtuf out--it's unreadable and useless...


Mine looks like your copy. By enlarging with Control and Plus, it is readable and shows sections without interconnecting wiring. Better than nothing and best I've seen so far. Fairly simple controller for DC motors obviously using just part of the three-phase inverter of Pauls. Looks like just one channel with three paralleled IGBT's, each with own -8 volt and +15 volt gate driver using separate ON an OFF gate resistors with totem pole bipolar transistors. Makes it easier to fine tune the IGBT for rise and fall times. 

I like it.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

That Schematic paired with this board layout might be interesting... I'm doing a little work on some documentation for Paul... so I have some files for the 21 and 27 DC Control Boards. I will be putting it all together in a PDF although it's a little slow going but I'm working on it.

Paul gave me this BoardLayout21_PCB.pdf with the board I bought. I think the layout for 27 has changed a little but not much.


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Ocean said:


> That Schematic paired with this board layout might be interesting... I'm doing a little work on some documentation for Paul... so I have some files for the 21 and 27 DC Control Boards. I will be putting it all together in a PDF although it's a little slow going but I'm working on it.
> 
> Paul gave me this BoardLayout21_PCB.pdf with the board I bought. I think the layout for 27 has changed a little but not much.


Man if you could do this and document all of Paul and Sabrina’s work it’s would be such a treasured blessing!!!
Oh this would be so Awesome!!


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

Has anyone / do these controller boards need to be conformal coated?

And thanks for taking on the documentation, Ocean. Let me know if I can help in some way. I just got a Ver 1.1 board and am assembling the controller.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

swoozle said:


> Has anyone / do these controller boards need to be conformal coated?
> 
> And thanks for taking on the documentation, Ocean. Let me know if I can help in some way. I just got a Ver 1.1 board and am assembling the controller.


Thanks I appreciate that. There is one thing I would like help with - basically checking some of my work. I am translating his BOM's into my page design program, and I want to make sure I don't miss anything or mess it up. But general feedback would be great too once I get the content rolling...

What board is ver 1.1? Is it a DC or AC control board?


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

GE11 said:


> Man if you could do this and document all of Paul and Sabrina’s work it’s would be such a treasured blessing!!!
> Oh this would be so Awesome!!


Well I don't know if I will get it "all" but right now I'm working on the DC Control Board since that's what I have and am most familiar with... but thanks for your enthusiasm - we shall see how it goes!


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

Ocean said:


> ...
> What board is ver 1.1? Is it a DC or AC control board?


It's a DC board


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

swoozle said:


> It's a DC board


right- of course sorry - that's his latest DC Control Board.


----------



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

View attachment Cougar_Controller_Rev2C_Schematic_All.pdf


Is this any better?


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

A DC build ready to test.


----------



## Ocean (Dec 20, 2016)

swoozle said:


> A DC build ready to test.


Wow Swoozle that's exciting!!! You inspire me to finish my rebuild which is sooo close to test also. Super Cool!!!


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

Anyone with newer DC board experience: when you look at the terminal output do you see CF jumping around?

And do you see temp readings? I'm not getting temp readings even though I'm sure the thermistor is installed correctly.


TR=000 CR=000 CF=064 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=064 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=000 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=192 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=192 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=192 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=000 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=000 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=000 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x
TR=000 CR=000 CF=000 PW=000 HS=0000 RT=0000 FB=00 BA=000 AH=xxx.x


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

swoozle said:


> Anyone with newer DC board experience: when you look at the terminal output do you see CF jumping around?
> 
> And do you see temp readings? I'm not getting temp readings even though I'm sure the thermistor is installed correctly.
> ...


It turns out that one of my current sensors is defective. 

The missing temp reading is still a mystery though.


----------



## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

swoozle said:


> It turns out that one of my current sensors is defective.
> 
> The missing temp reading is still a mystery though.


Missing temp is a result of a change in the latest board rev that wasn't reflected in the code (per Paul).


----------



## sdev (May 3, 2015)

Hi There Zippy

I would really appreciate some pics of alternative caps. Even a listing of manufacturer and size etc.

REgards
Sdev


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Hi All,
I'm building the AC controller and i'm looking for some help debugging it. 

I've posted the question on a separate thread here:


https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/help-debugging-p-s-ac-inverter-200643.html


I'm having trouble getting the 5v supply to work.



I'd really appreciate some help!


Many thanks,
Steve


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

sdev said:


> Hi There Zippy
> 
> I would really appreciate some pics of alternative caps. Even a listing of manufacturer and size etc.
> 
> ...


Hello sorry Ive only just seen the post, here is a video of my set up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZWjKcrGcgo&t=16s

I can send more info if required.

so....

What has happened to Paul his webshop has been closed for a few months now, I have emailed him but no reply, he normally replies within a day.

Anyone know of anyone making leaf couplers, my project has stopped, need a coupler, lost of promises but no goods.


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

I expect 6600uF of 3x2200uF elcaps would be a good start for AC inverter. For DC i expect you would need somewhat more.

Also if you consider every car manufacturer uses at least 800uF film cap in their setup. So i expect that would be the norm. So if you are DIY, and you can get one, use Prius inverter main cap its a best bet. 

A


----------



## sdev (May 3, 2015)

zippy500 said:


> Hello sorry Ive only just seen the post, here is a video of my set up
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZWjKcrGcgo&t=16s
> 
> ...


Thanks Zippy

What value of caps do you have there ( 3 white units (looks like Kemets) on DC link.

Regards
Sdev


----------



## sdev (May 3, 2015)

Thanks Arber

keep up the good work on the 405

Regards
Sdev


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

the numbers are: 380 µF, 400 V each one, from what I remember they where about £85 each when I bought them.

Like Arber if you can get a salvaged capacitor from in a invertor might be cheaper


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

zippy500 said:


> the numbers are: 380 µF, 400 V each one, from what I remember they where about £85 each when I bought them.
> 
> Like Arber if you can get a salvaged capacitor from in a invertor might be cheaper


Hi

In my experience, if you can get a complete salvaged power section it WILL be much cheaper than building your own and have more protection... aside from building it to gain knowledge about it, which no money can substitute. 

A


----------



## sdev (May 3, 2015)

Thanks again.


Yes, they are certainly not cheap, I take it their film caps and not electrolytics. The budget will take a hammering if I blow those babies. I have no doubt I will at least come close.
Thanks again
Steve


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

sdev said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> Yes, they are certainly not cheap, I take it their film caps and not electrolytics. The budget will take a hammering if I blow those babies. I have no doubt I will at least come close.
> ...


Yes, I dont want to think how much my controller cost probably close to £1000 that was with Pauls pre-built board, 2nd hand IGBts from Paul, Caps, the aluminum plate cost nearly £50 ( which I bought two as i messed one of them up)

Drop in boards were not available when I decided to put the controller together.

Probably still works out cheaper if you can source a 2nd hand invertor (plus the bonus that the plate can be water cooled) and buy one of Pauls drop in boards.

Have a think, unless your at a point of no return, have you bought the IGBts yet ?


----------



## sdev (May 3, 2015)

No not yet.
I bought this pcb from Paul many years ago and have now returned to it.

I thought it might wet my whistle and the I will return to the real goal Johannes Huebner's inverter. I am in the process of building his kit at the moment also. The former is more of an excercise and I will complete a home made power section for both.

Little steps at a time and all that.

Thanks
Steve


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

I would like to ask if someone has experience with paralelling IGBTs for more power. 
My intention is to put 2x 6bridge (3phase) inverters in paralel. Controler in question is Lebowski with Chevy Volt 2x 600A inverter bridges which are sharing DC link. 
I would connect 3 phases on the output. Also i would connect driver signals so there would be a single signal opening paralell IGBTs. 
Current sensor i would setup in such a way that it would observe 1/2 of the signal. 
I would of course try to reduce max current to a managable value like 500A so i would get like 2x 500A per phase..... 
I am betting if i keep my paralel tracks short and i keep 3phase cables the same there would not be much shootthrough. 

What do you think the results would be?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Disclaimer I am NOT an electrical engineer

With that said my understanding of Paul's logic when using IGBTs in parallel is that they may not share nicely and that Paul's solution was to use a relatively long length of cable on each IGBT 
The issue is that when you have two switches in parallel and one is lower resistance then all of the current goes that way
But by having one meter lengths of cable on each the difference in resistance of the IGBT is much much less important

So your three phase unit with six IGBTs would use six one meter lengths of cable - joining down to the three phases on the end away from the IGBTs


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Sorry but I know less than nothing on this subject 

But isn't this what Arlin has did on his CRX ? he has 6 IGBts in his setup


----------



## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

zippy500 said:


> Sorry but I know less than nothing on this subject
> 
> But isn't this what Arlin has did on his CRX ? he has 6 IGBts in his setup


Yes, he used one 600A IGBT per switch if i remember correctly. That is almost the same as one IPM module (6 transistors in 3phase config). I would like to paralel 2 IPM modules to provide 2x 600A capability. Well lets just say i would be happy with 1000A capability.

What i need to do is have closed loop control for FOC. I either need 1kA current sensors or existing current sensors for 700A working on single IPM and suppose other module works the same. 
Mind you Fault detection would take signals from both IPMs.

A


----------



## dkubus (Oct 10, 2019)

Hi guy's I'm just jumping no here as I'm very keen on what I've been seeing so far and admiring the great work and informative discussion thus far. I have a Soliton1 and I'm now embarking on a new Dual WarP9 Hillclimb race car build and I'm dreaming up (inspired by you guys) a 2,500A -3,500A Peak /1,500-2,000A continuos capable DC controller based on multiple IGBT modules bridged together with refrigerant chilled water cooling system preferably upto 400V battery input so that Sag is less issues toward the end of a 65 second steep Hillclimb run. I'd love some input into what might be possible using the "Paul&Sabrina" control board? Cheers guys for any help or advice you might have for this optimistic project. 

Cheers 
Mike.


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Hi All,


I've got a technical question about the USB connection.


I've built the P&S board myself, and have the inverter built,. I've carried out some successful tests (as per Paul's instructions) on the power stage, but I'm now having trouble with the USB connection.



I've connected to the resolver-digital converter to test my resolver, and supplied 24v to the board. I've now plugged the USB in, but no serial devices are being found. 



Nothing's happening basically.


Has anyone had this experience, and have an inkling of where I should look or what I should do first?


Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated (or queries for further details!!)


Thanks,


Steve


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

I've gone back to square 1 and am re-doing the tests. Nothing.

It appears i've introduced a short into the board somewhere. i'd better start debugging


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Hi,
Does anyone have any experience running a toyota / lexus motor using the AC controller?

I'm testing my controller using MG1 from a Lexus gs450h transmission (not its final home but it's what I have to hand), and i'm not having any luck. I've managed to get the motor to rock back-and-forth by a few mm, but now after 2 days of frustration I need to ask for help!

The basic setup is a 48V pack, an rx8 pedal, resolver board etc all connected and appearing to work as expected based on the serial readings, based on the documentation I can gather online and in the code.

I'm not sure what info I need to give, but i'd really appreciate some guidance on what I could try or where I could start diagnosing this. 

I'd really appreciate some help on this.


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Have you had a look over at:

https://openinverter.org/forum/

Damien has done a lot of work on the GS450


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Hi, Thanks for the reply.

Yes, i'm looking through the forums there and through both the openinverter and p&s inverter code to see which settings can be mapped across. I'll keep reading and update if I have any success to maybe save someone the trouble in future.

The p&s inverter code has some support for toyota motor types, so I've been reading the code trying to configure based on that mostly.


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Rather than ask a general 'help', I'll try to be more explicit. Right now, i'm trying to calibrate my throttle, as it a appears to have no predictable effect.

I'm using an rx-8 pedal which outputs values in the range 317 -> 790 when streaming the ```rawThrottle``` variable.

Based on this, I have set the min and max throttle positions to those values respectively, but this causes the inverter to do nothing at all.

When I change the min-throttle-position to 500, the inverter wakes up (starts a high-pitched squeal) and the rotor rocks very gently back-and-forth.

Related to the throttle position values, i'm confused as to what my regen settings should be, as these relate to throttle position also. Ideall i'd like
to turn off regen completely so I can elminiate that one variable for now.

So my question is: Given the values above, how do i:

1. Set my min, max and fault throttle positions
2. Switch off regen completely, as it's controlled to some degree by throttle position

Many thanks if you've even read this far.

Steve


----------



## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Have you tried asking Paul for Help, think he is still active for help
.

Have you setup your angle offset ?


----------



## stephenknox (Aug 17, 2018)

Yes, I worked through my issues with Paul on the ecomodder forum. There's a very detailed thread on there with lots of inputs from various people. I'm in the process of writing up my findings, and documenting the build. I'll post on here when that's done.


Ultimately my issue was a bad temperature sensor. Once I swapped it out, it worked nicely.


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

I’m interested in buying one of these. How much are they? And where do I get one?


----------



## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Is there a 1000 amp version of the Paul and Sabrina?? Is there a link to it I am interested in getting one.


----------

