# [EVDL] Regen efficiency. Hard numbers. And happy new year to all EVDListers !



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Extremely interesting and hopefully rEVolutionary year 2008 !

EVDL has grown to a resource that really makes a difference. I feel 
privliged to be a part of it. So let's keep on the good work !

I'm a bit puzzled on the numbers I have on driving in city and in 
highway. Mostly on the in-city parts where we all get lots of starts and 
stops.

On Lead EVs I've seen quoted 7% efficiency on regen. Can't say where 
that has been measured or how it was calculated. But seems to be rellay 
bad. I also have drived with lead (long time ago) and never seen this 
kind of numbers. Never got so much back to batts and ofcourse lead did 
not accept even half what was being pushed there.

I remember when we were driving with Victors AC-CRX with Lions and caps. 
We got nice power and efficiency numbers on in-city driving. I never 
calculated exactly how good it was, but it was way over 50% what we got 
Ahs back in.

If any of you have some hard numbers on efficiencies and how they were 
measured I would like to put them in spreadsheet. To understand it 
better. We can add then it to Wiki for EVeryone to read.

We know that DC motors have their numbers. Cabling and other resistances 
add their part and batteries finally eat all what they will. So basicly 
it is quite individual thing.

In normal city traffic I've seen on the Citroen Berlingo EV (DC sep.ex.
~28 kw, 17kWh Lions, single gear, 1250 kg) accelerating from stop to 60 
km/h quite steady press of pedal and then regenning back to full stop 
will take only 0,3 Ah with 156 V (avg. on the cycle, +/- 500 mV). The 
distance travelled on the spin was about 1000 meters. I know I really 
should measure all these numbers more accurately to get numbers 
justified. But.. I'll start with these.

This calculates to about 47 wh/km => 75 Wh/mi. Somehow I feel it's a bit 
too incredible number. Just by driving the existing crappy TS pack I 
would get range of 360 km (in-city).

Eh. I think this needs some extencive testing to prove. I would propably 
be crazy but I will be driving that part back to back during night 
dozens of times soon.

This is from lights to lights and on the normal route on my daily driving.

Am I misleaded by suspicous numbers or would a small Lion pack on 
efficent EV get so much farther ? It would be cheap, durable and usable. 
Usually they do not come in same pakage.

-Jukka

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On Lead EVs I've seen quoted 7% efficiency on regen.

I think you might be confusing efficiency with range extension. Totally
different numbers. Measuring Regen efficiency is fairly difficult.

> If any of you have some hard numbers on efficiencies and how they were
> measured I would like to put them in spreadsheet. To understand it
> better. We can add then it to Wiki for EVeryone to read.

Why? Quoting regen efficiency is kinda of pointless, sort of like quoting
ICE efficiency. Hardly anyone cares about ICE efficiency, however lots of
folks care about MPG.

People won't care about regen efficiency, they will care if it extends
their range and how far. Unfortunately how much you get back from regen
is tied to lots of variables, making it just about impossible to post a
hard number.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Lead EVs I've seen quoted 7% efficiency on regen. Can't say where 
that has been measured or how it was calculated. But seems to be rellay 
bad. I also have drived with lead (long time ago) and never seen this 
kind of numbers. Never got so much back to batts and ofcourse lead did 
not accept even half what was being pushed there.


That sounds like a (poor) total recovery in typical driving, ie. you have
a 50 Ah charge, and you get the range of 53.5 Ah. I've seen 15% in city
driving.

-Dale

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
>> On Lead EVs I've seen quoted 7% efficiency on regen.
> =

> I think you might be confusing efficiency with range extension. Totally
> different numbers. Measuring Regen efficiency is fairly difficult.

If I remember it correctly it was measured from complete cycle on wet =

cells. Ah's in and out during the test drive cycle. I need to get =

someone from that specific test give me some more facts....

> =

>> If any of you have some hard numbers on efficiencies and how they were
>> measured I would like to put them in spreadsheet. To understand it
>> better. We can add then it to Wiki for EVeryone to read.
> =

> Why? Quoting regen efficiency is kinda of pointless, sort of like quoting
> ICE efficiency. Hardly anyone cares about ICE efficiency, however lots of
> folks care about MPG.
> =

> People won't care about regen efficiency, they will care if it extends
> their range and how far. Unfortunately how much you get back from regen
> is tied to lots of variables, making it just about impossible to post a
> hard number.
> =

> =


Point taken. But still this makes me wonder and I wish to know more =

about this perhaps pointless detail.

But.. What could be the efficiency on city driving. Hybrids try to gain =

30% or more range on regen.

Non EVers are looking things in a way that we did long time ago. I feel =

no pinch or pain by looking the pump prices today. It hit all day =

record. 1,5=80/litre ($8,36/gallon). More higher it rockets more happier I =

get.

Why I'm thinking about this...

Would it be possible to build normal passenger car with just small =

enough Lion pack and have a success with it ? 150 km range in city =

driving. Regen could contribute here the extra 50 km. With the math I =

put up in my previous mail we would need only 5-6 kWh pack. =3D> 1000-2000 =

eur battery system.

Since the car prices have nice tax in here price of the EV could be =

cheaper than the donor car. Cheap electricity and high gasoline prices.. =

I could happen.

I do not feel limited on my EV. I can do all my driving nicely.

I would like to know if this efficiency is actually so much greatly =

improved by ACs and permanent magnets. I have various EVs but they all =

are so different or just old tech. Can't get the "feeling" on regen =

differences.

I might just be asking this info for my self to get some sort of =

satisfaction. Hey.. It's 1:30 Am and I'm typing this. It's just =

bothering me that I have not had deeper insight on this earlier.

So Peter, how many AHs you can see creeping back while braking ? No need =

to be too scientific with it.  It depends on terrain and road quality =

and tires and.. soo many variables that I just wan't to see what are the =

extremes. Variation must be huge among EV users.

-Jukka


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://www.tuer.org.uk/evs2/hillog.xls
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Today it was so darn slippery due snow that I could not regen with full
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In Finland.

-Jukka


Zeke Yewdall kirjoitti:
>


> Jukka J=E4rvinen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > =
> 
> >> Today it was so darn slippery due snow that I could not regen with full
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jukka and all,

I think I know something about regen I can tell ;-)

Yes, we tried with you to capture energy in ACRX equipped with
ultracaps, logging (rather looking at) Ah in and out of the battery.
Ah in this case is not as good indication as Wh since voltage
on regen is higher so the amps (and thus Ah) - "artificially" lower
than if the voltage would be the same.

Anyway, if you accelerate from a stop to some speed and engage
regen up to a full stop again, you recover 60-70% of Wh spent.

I can reset my Wh counter. Let's say acceleration took 40Wh,
I engage regen and stopped. Counter shows 15Wh spent total.
This means 40-15=3D25Wh were recovered back. 25/40=3D0.625; ~62%
of the energy recovered. My only losses were system efficiency,
friction and part of aero drag which is smallest of the other two =

factors in this case.

Now, I accelerate to the same speed spending same 40Wh, drive for
an hour at steady speed spending 12,000Wh more, and decelerate at the =

end of that trip recovering my 25Wh as before. Total amount of
energy spent is 12040Wh, recovered energy is 25Wh. 25/12040=3D0.00207
or 0.2%. Same system, same regen efficiency. Amount of regen *primarely*
depends on the driving pattern, specifically on the proportion of the
time you're regenning to a total driving time where any steady driving
portion of the trip is unrecoverable. If you never decelerate, just
drive steady, regen has no chance to work at all, DC equipped
(but otherwise identical) car will spend exactly the same energy as AC =

one. You only recover when you brake, and how much do you brake
depends on traffic conditions and very individual driving habbits.
So it is not possible to assign a universal number to a regen.
You can, however, for given car, driver and drive pattern (urban,
stop and go, mostly freeway etc). I recover *in grand average* 12-15%
of the energy back. That's because I mostly run fairly long distances
before there is need to brake. In tight stop and go taffic amount
of recovered energy may increase to perhaps 30% or so since all
you do is only accelerate and decelerate, not running continuously.

Main benefits of regen (other than obvious energy recovery) is
that it's very healthy for the battery to periodically cram
amps into it after long continuous drive - this has to do with
depletion layer of active material in the battery, and also,
I practically don't use disk brakes saving them and brake pads.
My pads still look like new (installed in 1995) and disks are
a bit rusty (never get cleaned) so periodically I disable
regen to restore good pads grip for emergency situations...

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different




> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > =
> 
> > Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Jukka and all,
> >
> > I think I know something about regen I can tell ;-)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>


> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Jukka and all,
> >>
> >> I think I know something about regen I can tell ;-)
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So in other words, Regen is very good in stop and go situations and 
for stopping your heavy lead sled. If nothing else it is a good 
safety benefit. Capturing some energy back while stopping is a side 
benefit. A nice one.

: )

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Metric Mind kirjoitti:
> Jukka and all,
> 
> I think I know something about regen I can tell ;-)
> 
> Yes, we tried with you to capture energy in ACRX equipped with
> ultracaps, logging (rather looking at) Ah in and out of the battery.
> Ah in this case is not as good indication as Wh since voltage
> on regen is higher so the amps (and thus Ah) - "artificially" lower
> than if the voltage would be the same.
> 
> Anyway, if you accelerate from a stop to some speed and engage
> regen up to a full stop again, you recover 60-70% of Wh spent.
> 
> I can reset my Wh counter. Let's say acceleration took 40Wh,
> I engage regen and stopped. Counter shows 15Wh spent total.
> This means 40-15=25Wh were recovered back. 25/40=0.625; ~62%
> of the energy recovered. My only losses were system efficiency,
> friction and part of aero drag which is smallest of the other two 
> factors in this case.

Now this was a number I wanted to see. And now from others please 

62% efficiency tells me that by counting the amount of stops and 
estimating how many meters it takes we can get an vague indication of 
extendable range in-city driving. Thou not all deacceleratings are done 
with same force.... hmm.. so travelled distance might vary quite a bit

A general Wh counter will tell already enough. All consumed Whs divided 
by the meters travelled.

Does anyone know how the EVs have been taken in count for in EPA drive 
cycle testing ? When the braking is regenerated and then energy reused. 
Overall consumed Whs are just calculated to gallons ?

-Jukka

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

But the losses should be counted in too. Battery is one essential part 
in the equation. I got those numbers covered in my case already 

I'm hoping to get as accurate comparison as possible between EV and ICE 
with same donor. Range extending regen still puzzles me. How well it 
actually do work.

Surely the complete drivetrain will have to be analyzed too.

Charging:
Outlet-cabling-charger-cabling-batteries

Driving:
batteries-cabling-controller-motor-gear friction-other frictions

Regen:
other frictions-gear friction-controller-cabling-battery

driving:
batteries-cabling-controller-motor-gear friction-other frictions

and so on...

We need also add the idling power consumtion on the systems that 
othervice are powered by ICE.

I know we are already in our leaque here with efficiencies. The regen 
extending brake part lifetime takes cost off tooand it is also 
interesting thing to people who are thinking of buying an EV.

-Jukka





Morgan LaMoore kirjoitti:
>


> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Jukka and all,
> >>
> >> I think I know something about regen I can tell ;-)
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> henry buehler wrote:
> > hydraulic regenerative braking
> > http://www.designnews.com/article/CA220671.html
> > on an electric vehicle this would be a new concept.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> GWMobile wrote:
> > Just curious
> > How many turns of an axle is it from a 40 mph roll to a normal non
> > emergency dead stop on a prius?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Metric Mind <[email protected]>
> If you never decelerate, just drive steady, regen has no chance to work at all

Don't forget hills. My city has many, many hills. I would love to go AC but
the price / performance just isn't there if you want (need!) 100kW.

Steve W


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