# Mars 1003 hot n smelly



## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

I just picked up a dnepnr motorcycle with sidecar
It's about 650 lbs it has a Motenergy 1003 I am running it at 84 volts through a 7243 axe controller
Motor seems to be getting hot and throttle response is jumpy. I checked the pot and seems to be smooth. Is this motor enough for the weight of this ? It is running direct shaft drive to differential that is reportedly 4.3 to 1

I noticed that they have an improved brush set-up with better brush material Would that be worth it ?

I have a Zilla 1k that I will replace the controller with eventually. I was planning on setting the Zilla to match the specs of the motor voltage and amperage wise. That should work????


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

You are probably on the top edge of this motor and it why it become hot. Especially if your vehicle have a bad aerodynamic and if you drive at ''high speed'' (50-60 mph).
Running this motor with a Zilla will work, but you will burn the motor if it's the weakest link.


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## themotorman (Jan 7, 2010)

The power is proprtional to motor rpm. Looks to me that your gearing is not sufficient so motor is lugging . You need to increase gear ratio so motor is running at around 5000 rpm . Then you might need higher voltage battery pack and controller. Also if the motor gets too hot the magnets will get loose and the jam up the motor. A blower wrapped around the motor will help . The kind of blower used for a truck AC cab air system.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

thanks for the replies
i calculated that I am using up about 260 watt/hrs per mile. this is about the same or more than my 2400 lb Civic EV! It is hard to push. Estimated weight with me on it 850- 900 lbs 

It might have dragging brakes or bad bearings or poor alignment or all of the above. It is direct drive through a 4.5 to one differential. When it is cool it seems to be plenty snappy and as it gets hotter and hotter it gets sluggish and of course I would be compounding the heat problem.

Could there be a bad winding or something internal in the motor that might exhibit itself like this?


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## themotorman (Jan 7, 2010)

As the motor heats up two things happen
The resistance of the copper goes up so more losses and more heat. Second the magnets get weaker so less power. Try disconnecting the motor and see if it rolls easily that would eliminate the motor or show brake problems. I still worry about you trying to get power from a low rpm motor. Output power is directly a function of rpm...so needs IMHO a change in gearing.
Did it ever work well?


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

I just bought so have not run it a lot. the former owner was using cheap AGM's and complained that they were only good for a few miles. It seemed reasonably zippy even with the AGM's.
I jacked up the bike to see how the wheels roll and they were fine no brake drag, bearings tight and fairly smooth. The tires are semi off-road. It has a differential so there is probably more drag there than normal. It is still very heavy to push. Like as hard or harder to get rolling as my civic (2400 lbs) 

what would your guess be on the vehicle weight appropriate for the 1003?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

4.3 ratio is too small, and the motor is too. You are geared to spin the wheels at 80mph but with hardly any torque. And the motor with that setup can only handle maybe 50mph peak (flat, no wind, tires pumped up). But you are probably topping out under 40mph.

You gotta let air cooled motors spin so they can stay cool. 

Most conversions use at least 5:1 and a motor with much more torque/power, especially with the weight and drag of a side car. If you cant control the ratio, you need to find an even torqueier motor.


Also your commutator doesn't look very happy.


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

A lot of good advice in this thread which renders my input redundant, but since I've burned up a ME1003 I'll add my one cent. Based on the figures you present, I think you're quite near the motor limit but not beyond it. How carefully you drive and how you cool the motor will largely influence its life span. Here is a 0-45mph acceleration demonstration of an: 850lb (with driver) mini buggy, ME1003 with external cooling, 3.9 gear, and 400A through a 7245 at 76V. This was an off-road only vehicle and didn't have to meet the demands of traffic flow, so it may be less headache for you to go with a larger motor. 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o87bl_27-6-kw-acceleration-test

I burned up a ME 1003 on an earlier, lighter, and less powerful rendition of my buggy. A fellow forum member (Jayls5) then put me on to this fan here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Speedmaster-PCE185-1018-Black-S-Blades-Fans-Electric-/201196281158?rmvSB=true

It is almost as if that fan was made for the ME1003. It's the same diamater and mounts easily. Flip the blades and delete the motor vents so that it works in conjunction with the motor's internal fan. If you look up Jayls5's build thread you can see how he mounted the fan. I copied his design and, once I implemented the fan, had zero heat issues at higher power levels.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks for the one cent (I'm rating it significantly higher. Like 10 dollars at least.)
I ordered a similar fan just last night hoping to at least extend the life of the motor. This is great news. The cfm rating is 1750 so a little lower than the link you posted.
?Love this forum


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Does anybody know off hand in CCW rotation if air flow is from commutator end to drive end? So fan should be a pusher?


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Anybody ever run a zilla 1k with a motenergy 1003?
huge mismatch in power handling but the zilla can be adjusted to protect the motor.
I have 3) 60 ah 48 volt modules of ncm lithiums that would be nice to run in series for 144volts i own the zilla already and it's overkill but should be able to set the zilla to limit motor volts (96 or so) and amps (300 maybe) the zilla wouldn't break a sweat and as long as i watch the heat on the motor it should work at least for awhile. 

Does this sound reasonable?

alternatively what would a good motor match be for this rig?
i was thinking a smaller adc like an 8" Is there anything smaller?


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

I think Netgain still offers the (trans)Warp 7


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## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

zapyourrideguy said:


> Does anybody know off hand in CCW rotation if air flow is from commutator end to drive end? So fan should be a pusher?


I'm almost positive it's supposed to be a pusher mounted on the back. Air should flow toward the driveshaft end.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

zapyourrideguy said:


> Does anybody know off hand in CCW rotation if air flow is from commutator end to drive end? So fan should be a pusher?


This is something that I have wondered about as well.
Does anyone know if the motor has an internal fan?

If not, I planned to attach a fan blade to the drive sprocket which will be ducted to pull air through the motor and I will put a filter on the commutator end.
From searching around online, it seems that several people had issues with rocks and debris destroying the motor, so I would rather not take that chance. If you plan to put a pusher fan on the commutator end of the motor, I would advise covering it with some sort of a filter or at least a mesh screen.


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

zapyourrideguy said:


> Does this sound reasonable?


You could add a second ME1003 motor and run them both with the Zilla.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Well an update on my motor. It turns out that my motor was timed wrong for direction of rotation CW. This is something that I should not of missed as I am a Honda Civic converted EV owner/builder. I know the ME-1003 is still maybe marginal for my rig but I can't spend the dough on an AC-20 that I know it wants.
I've had the comm turned and getting new brush set. 
My question today is design questions about a gear reduction. The bike was direct drive with a 4.6:1 reduction to the wheels through a shaft drive.
I was going to do a simple 2:1 gear reduction by raising the motor and using as small a #40 gear on the motor shaft as I can get away with and a larger (2x the teeth) gear below it in a pillow block bearing with a chain.
Is #40 enough? do I need to do 2 strand chain? Will this take the RPM's?
will I need 2 bearings? The drive-shaft end is on a u-joint, I believe, as it flops around when motor is disconnected. There is also a rubber isolator that was connected between the motor and final drive.
I tried to figure out the design parameters on-line but I am not getting very far.
Any help is appreciated


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Yes this is a common problem with this set-up. Not enough gear reduction and no way to increase it. The motor turns too slow, draws too much current and overheats. You'll need to make some kind of jack shaft, and add another reduction step in the overall ratio to get the motor speed up and the current draw down. You're right, the floppy drive shaft and U-joint will need to be well supported in bearings on the motor side of the U-joint to handle the side load from the added chain or belt drive.

It looks like you have plenty of room for this. Plus, then you can adjust the size of the pulleys or sprockets to dial in the best ratio.

The jack shaft really should have 2 bearings. But, if they are large enough, they don't need to be very far apart if the load is not overhung very much. Flange mount or pillow block bearings are some of the easiest to work with:https://starsinphotos.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/s-8604.jpg http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/1005or-build-your-own-belt-grinder/photo-05.html
These type of bearings have a spherical outer race that makes them self-aligning, so no precision alignment is needed. Use the diameter of the motor output shaft, but the next convenient diameter larger, as guide for the diameter of the jack shaft and bearings.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Mounting the jack shaft to the U-joint will probably require some machine work. You should be able to use stock pulleys or sprockets on the other end of the shaft. Ways of mounting parts to the shaft, from worst to best are: (1) set screw(s) over keyway only (2) set screw(s) over keyway with a bolt or nut screwed in or on the the end of the shaft, clamping the part to the shaft and bearing (3) use a tapered bushing to mount the part. 

Be sure to include slots in the motor mount to adjust the tension of the chain or belt.


You asked, I think, about #40 chain and sprockets? That size would work. But you're right, it's a pretty high speed application. It will be noisy and you'll have trouble keeping lube on it. Riperton on his race bike with a similar chain set-up uses an O ring chain with some success. A toothed belt set-up might work better, but they're several times more expensive.

It looks like you moved this discussion to the Electric Bike section. I'll repost these 2 posts to there.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

here are some more pics of the pieces that were there.
The motor shaft and bearing were the only thing supporting everything.
It has this rubber isolator I assume to absorb the movement from the drive shaft.
my plan was to build the secondary shaft so the splined end slips over drive shaft and then an affair like the links you sent gets bolted down. I thought it would be ok to raise and lower on some bolts this pillow block affair for chain tension as long as I was close to center since both the u-joint in the final drive and this rubber isolator allow for movement. Does that sound reasonable? 
I found a site that had a calculator for chain drives and it spec'd a triple #50
chain for this application. This seems like overkill. What do you think?
Thanks so much for your input 
It would be hard to implement but an oil bath case would be great.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

It looks like the rubber element flex joint (isolater as you call it) functions as the U-joint for the swing arm pivot. If that's the case, go ahead and use it like you wrote. How is the chain sprocket(looks like it's used as a coupling to the motor shaft) attached to the metal "T" of the flex joint? Is it slipped over a short straight shaft on the "T"? Or welded to the "T"?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

# 40 chain would be fine in this relatively high speed, low load application. What I've done in these cases is to live with the noise and mess of the inexpensive chain drive to establish the best ratio(size of sprockets). Then, spend the bigger bucks on a better suited toothed belt drive that has that same ratio. 

I would try to stick with slots in the motor mounting for the easiest chain/belt tension adjustment. Setting up the jack shaft is going to be difficult enough without having to use it for the tension adjustment.


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

Thanks so much. Do you have any guidance on resources for belt parts? I looked at some Gates sites but its pretty thick. Like you said test with chain and then belt for final implementation. 
Also it looks like I might be going to an AC-30. (older version of the AC-34/35)
That would still require the discussed gear reduction?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Probably more so with the AC. For now I would choose your motor, dial-in the ratio with a chain jack shaft, then think about belts. If it appears that the best chain ratio is close to 1:1, then eliminate the JS and go back to direct drive. It's difficult to predict the best drive ratio. And it may vary if the motor is a little small, the driving conditions change(flat vs.hills, city vs. highway,) lighter or heavier load. 

Speaking of load: where are the batteries stored? If they are mostly in the sidecar, right turns must be very interesting?!


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## zapyourrideguy (Oct 25, 2012)

They are in the sidecar boot. but only 110 lbs worth. They are 2) I3 packs 55 lbs each. I have never driven a sidecar so both right and left turns are interesting!

If I go with the AC-30 space will be tight. If I keep the elastic coupler there is very little space left for these jack shaft bearings. If I run a flange bearing on the motor mount plate, that would take up all the available space. but my gear would be right up against that bearing. the motor shaft is only 2" and the flange bearing that I found is about that wide. so the small gear on the motor shaft would be extended just past the end of the motor shaft and directly below it would be the jack shaft and flange bearing. Do I need a second bearing in this case?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

You'll need two bearings. 1) Because the typical self-aligning flange or pillow block bearing, by itself, would just rotate in its spherical outer race and be pulled out of alignment and 2) A fixed, non-self -aligning bearing would edge load the balls and races, be very noisy, and fail very quickly.

Another, very expensive option would be something like this: https://www.rainbowprecisionproducts.com/bm-typee-flange-units#1

You're probably need to reposition the motor mounting/ jack shaft plate(s) to make room for the jack shaft and its bearings.

It's easy to underestimate the force(pull) on the jack shaft. The basic formula for the chain pull is usually listed in Power Transmission catalogs.


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