# 300+ Volt 3-Phase Motor?



## Jayls5 (Apr 1, 2012)

ZSharpell said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I am working on a test vehicle for a startup company, and I would like to know of suppliers (other than Tesla) for 3-phase AC induction motors operating from 300+ Volt sources. Our development pack has a nominal voltage of ~350 V, but I have only been able to find motors and corresponding controllers for 144 V (max) systems.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your help!


I think you're generally going to be limited to OEM motor controllers, which I hear is difficult. The cheapest rig i've seen to experiment with is this:

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=364&osCsid=366k11884b8sjd0v3d26duesf1

That's motor+controller+Dc/dc all in one.

It's too low of a nominal voltage, so a pack redesign would be necessary on top of figuring out how to override the OEM controller firmware to make it run. It's smarts vs money


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

You could take the industrial route: Lenze MFEMAXX ([email protected] star) and industrial VFD or custom VFD.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Siemens makes induction motors up to 700V, if your startup has enough clout to get them to sell some to you.

As far as controllers are concerned, Rinehart Motion Systems is a good choice.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Remy, Parker


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

350 VDC probably translates to around 240 V phase to phase. For a test motor, any industrial motor should work. Japan has the lowest mains voltage in the world (100 V phase to neutral, so 173 V phase to phase), so either Japanese motors or motors made for the Japanese market would be a good place to start. The challenge will be finding a high enough continuous power rating (say 26 kW) in a small enough frame (say 132 frame, I don't know what that would be called in the USA).

For a Miata conversion I was involved with, we ordered a high density model from ABB. Even though it was from a catalogue, it was not a stocked item, and took months to be manufactured and delivered. It works very well, however.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

Thank you for the help! I will contact Siemens to see if we would be able to work something out. In general, if we were to get a motor capable of a 100-200 kW output, could I find an appropriate motor controller to use with the 350 V input?

Also, similar to how a DC motor can be overvolted (to a point) as long as it is kept cool, can something be done with an AC motor that usually uses 100 V and up to 600 A of input power? I am not sure if AC motor design varies for high voltage inputs versus high amperage input.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

http://www.rinehartmotion.com/ PM100DX


DC motors are like dinosaurs compared to A.C. A.C. input/output parameters are much more controlled. A.C. controllers have a lot more silicon in them and are typically more sophisticated (and expensive); you can't stray outside of design parameters. Same with motors, I don't think you can fool them but typically you don't have to. Ex. Remy HVH250-090D will work at 700V/600A RMS.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Motors are easy. You can overclock a motor until something gets too hot then fails. If it doesn't get hot or lose lubrication.....

3 phase high voltage high current controllers are tough to get or are generally expensive for either plug n play Or homebrew. Go to digikey and price 1200 v high amp h bridge igbts X 3.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> Motors are easy. You can overclock a motor until something gets too hot then fails. If it doesn't get hot or lose lubrication.....
> 
> 3 phase high voltage high current controllers are tough to get or are generally expensive for either plug n play Or homebrew. Go to digikey and price 1200 v high amp h bridge igbts X 3.


Do you mean something like this?

http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/pm800hsa120.pdf


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Half bridge? you need 6 of them. Not actually the point, but close enough.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

So I found used Remy HVH250-115s on Ebay for a little under $2000. I am slightly hesitant about that price because I saw new motors (same model) for $5000. Here is the link to the used motor and new motor.

What does everyone recommend? Go for it or pass it up?


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

My opinion: not much can break on an electric motor.

I'd go for the used one.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I think the new one is a -090 i.e. shorter stack. I would try to get a pic of the nameplate on the used one.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

There is also the HVH250-115 rated for up to 700 Volts but only 300 Amps. I am leaning toward the 350 Volt rated motor being that our pack is ~350 VDC nominal. When the pack is completely full there would be a max of 394 VDC at the pack terminals. Should I go with the 700 Volt rated motor to be safe?

From what I have read on the Remy site, the voltage rating on the nameplate is VDC going into the motor controller and inverter.


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Do you really need a 300V+ motor?
Would the Siemens 1PV5135 not be an option?
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=1PV5135
The motor itself can handle up until 300V but if you use the DMOC 645 the controller will take care of that. http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=DMOC645 That controller itself can handle up until 400V and therefore will match your nominal pack voltage.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Here's some more info on the Remy I dug up: https://www.remyinc.com/Documents/Hybrid/REM-71-HVH250_115_DataSht_12LoRez.aspx

My experience is with the 250-090. The SOM is wound differently and yields higher torque at a lower RPM (might be better for a street vehicle) although these graphs indicate torque is the same. The DOM can take more amps and can carry it out higher in the RPM band for more power. Here's another document to peruse: http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250_r3_Sept_2010.pdf

I'm not sure I believe the torque curves in the first chart but the power curves are consistent with my experience with the -090. I'll let you do more digging into it.  

Controller and transmission should be part of your consideration as well.

Good luck and happy new year!


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

ZSharpell said:


> There is also the HVH250-115 rated for up to 700 Volts but only 300 Amps. I am leaning toward the 350 Volt rated motor being that our pack is ~350 VDC nominal. When the pack is completely full there would be a max of 394 VDC at the pack terminals. Should I go with the 700 Volt rated motor to be safe?


Sounds perfectly matched to me. The insulation will not fail at a few volts above rating.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

oudevolvo said:


> Do you really need a 300V+ motor?
> Would the Siemens 1PV5135 not be an option?
> http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=1PV5135
> The motor itself can handle up until 300V but if you use the DMOC 645 the controller will take care of that. http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=DMOC645 That controller itself can handle up until 400V and therefore will match your nominal pack voltage.


The main reason I was going for a 300 VDC motor is due to our battery pack design, which is 345.6 VDC nominal. The Siemens 1PV5135 looks like a well built motor, and I did some reading up on it. It seems a little weird that the nameplate states 215 V, but maybe that's after the inverter?

The DMOC645 controller is a great price, compared to the Rinehart PM100 and PM150, but I read about quite a few difficulties for the DMOC (thread here). It seems like the Rinehart is more versatile, but that comes at a price ($3,495 vs. $5,200).


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

Frank said:


> Here's some more info on the Remy I dug up: https://www.remyinc.com/Documents/Hybrid/REM-71-HVH250_115_DataSht_12LoRez.aspx
> 
> My experience is with the 250-090. The SOM is wound differently and yields higher torque at a lower RPM (might be better for a street vehicle) although these graphs indicate torque is the same. The DOM can take more amps and can carry it out higher in the RPM band for more power. Here's another document to peruse: http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250_r3_Sept_2010.pdf
> 
> ...


Thank you for those links!

As far as the controller goes, the Rinehart PM150 DX seems to be a good option. We will be just under 400 VDC max and will not exceed 400 Amps from the battery pack. A new Rinehart is $7,800 (EVWest), which is a substantial amount, but I've read good things about it. Any other controllers that would be suitable for that kind of input?

For the test bed vehicle we are using a single gear reduction, likely with a gearing ratio between 8:1 and 10:1. Once we solidify the motor choice, we will be able to pinpoint a final ratio. This isn't going to be a road legal test vehicle; rather, a benchmark for our own powertrain and control systems.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

You said at the beginning that you were looking for an induction motor. To be clear, these Remy motors are not induction machines--they are permanent magnet synchronous. But if induction is not a requirement, they are some of the best motors there are.

Keep in mind that the DOM and SOM versions require oil cooling, so you'll need to design an oil cooling loop which is a little more complicated and expensive than a WEG cooling loop.

And forget about trying to get a DMOC645 To work with these. You want a Rinehart.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

Hollie Maea said:


> You said at the beginning that you were looking for an induction motor. To be clear, these Remy motors are not induction machines--they are permanent magnet synchronous. But if induction is not a requirement, they are some of the best motors there are.
> 
> Keep in mind that the DOM and SOM versions require oil cooling, so you'll need to design an oil cooling loop which is a little more complicated and expensive than a WEG cooling loop.
> 
> And forget about trying to get a DMOC645 To work with these. You want a Rinehart.


Thank you for pointing that out, I completely glossed over that. I need to make some decision matrices to determine if induction or PM motors should be used. My primary concerns are heat generation, slip associated with induction motors, and the power output (we need to move a ~5000 lb vehicle).

From what I've found for sale, Siemens is the only induction motor I can readily purchase that the Rinehart supports. UQM, Yasa, Remy, and Parker are PM.

Does anyone know anything about MES-DEA or EVO (GKN?) motors? I found a bit about the MES-DEA 200-250 motor, and it's specs (kW and Nm) were low compared to the Remy HVH250-115 I was looking at.


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Myself I already have a DMOC to go with the Siemens but have been told that a Sevcon is also an interesting option.
http://www.sevcon.com/products/high-voltage-controllers/gen4-s8/
Don't know about their price range though.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Zachary,

I PM'd you, hoping I can help.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

ZSharpell said:


> Thank you for pointing that out, I completely glossed over that. I need to make some decision matrices to determine if induction or PM motors should be used. My primary concerns are heat generation, slip associated with induction motors, and the power output (we need to move a ~5000 lb vehicle).
> 
> From what I've found for sale, Siemens is the only induction motor I can readily purchase that the Rinehart supports. UQM, Yasa, Remy, and Parker are PM.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about MES-DEA or EVO (GKN?) motors? I found a bit about the MES-DEA 200-250 motor, and it's specs (kW and Nm) were low compared to the Remy HVH250-115 I was looking at.


From the end user standpoint, there aren't that significant of differences.

1. Heat generation: You'll get a little more heat (and lower efficiency) with an induction motor over a PMAC motor, due to increased rotor losses. But not a huge difference; just a few percentage points. Both versions are much more efficient than brushed DC motors.

2. Slip: Doesn't really matter. The only one who knows about the slip in an induction motor is the motor controller. The inputs and outputs are more or less indistinguishable. 

3. Power generation: From a density standpoint, PMAC wins this battle. Tesla used their powers to come up with an induction motor that is almost as power dense as permanent magnet motors, but other manufacturers lag more. A Siemens induction motor is, for a given power output, about twice as heavy as a Remy. You won't have any problem moving a 5000 lb car with a Remy motor--they can output almost 300kW peak and have better continuous output ratings than any other motor of comparable size, since they liquid cool both the stator and the rotor.

If you do decide to do a Remy, you might want to consider an AMR motor. That's a Remy core, but with a housing that is engineered to integrate the whole oil cooling loop. Yes, you'll save a little for your test mule buying used Remy motors off Ebay, but when you expand production you won't save any money--Remy charges quite a bit for housed motors, as they prefer to encourage integrators like AMR who buy cartridge versions and engineer a system. Housed Remy motors might even cost more than an AMR motor (it's close) and it certainly won't be cheaper when you factor in the oil coolant components (an extra oil pump, a sump and heat exchanger or an oil radiator).


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

re: power 2 weight for induction. That too boils down to maybe a percentage point or 2 once you factor in the weight of the pack/etc. And with actual focus on power density these days, you can go to the junkyard and get a tesla S induction motor that can make 270kw, and doesn't look much heavier than the remey.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

frodus said:


> Zachary,
> 
> I PM'd you, hoping I can help.


Responded. Thank you, Travis!



Hollie Maea said:


> From the end user standpoint, there aren't that significant of differences.
> 
> If you do decide to do a Remy, you might want to consider an AMR motor. That's a Remy core, but with a housing that is engineered to integrate the whole oil cooling loop. Yes, you'll save a little for your test mule buying used Remy motors off Ebay, but when you expand production you won't save any money--Remy charges quite a bit for housed motors, as they prefer to encourage integrators like AMR who buy cartridge versions and engineer a system. Housed Remy motors might even cost more than an AMR motor (it's close) and it certainly won't be cheaper when you factor in the oil coolant components (an extra oil pump, a sump and heat exchanger or an oil radiator).


Thank you for the explanations! That helps clarify some questions I had. The AMRs are very nice and are pretty much a complete package. Have you had any experience with them before, specifically the cooling system? I looked at their drawings, and saw both oil and water/glycol mentioned (pdf here).

Does AMR use a dual liquid system such that an external water/glycol circuit cools the internal oil system? If so, that would integrate well into the battery pack cooling system we have.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

dcb said:


> re: power 2 weight for induction. That too boils down to maybe a percentage point or 2 once you factor in the weight of the pack/etc. And with actual focus on power density these days, you can go to the junkyard and get a tesla S induction motor that can make 270kw, and doesn't look much heavier than the remey.


What kind of magic did Tesla use to get that much out of their motor? I've found a few for ~$12k, but I would think a special controller/inverter is needed.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

ZSharpell said:


> What kind of magic did Tesla use to get that much out of their motor?


might provide some insights
https://chargedevs.com/features/qa-with-teslas-lead-motor-engineer-full-interview/

this might have something to do with it 
"We can generate motor geometries and analyze them with finite element analysis very quickly. We have a big computer cluster with more than 500 core processors that run finite elements"

Though I don't know if there is anything particularly special about the controller, except it seems to be well suited for DTC with those shunts.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

ZSharpell said:


> Thank you for the explanations! That helps clarify some questions I had. The AMRs are very nice and are pretty much a complete package. Have you had any experience with them before, specifically the cooling system? I looked at their drawings, and saw both oil and water/glycol mentioned (pdf here).
> 
> Does AMR use a dual liquid system such that an external water/glycol circuit cools the internal oil system? If so, that would integrate well into the battery pack cooling system we have.


Yes, I have experience with them--we put them in our 6000 pound mining transport vehicles and they work great.

Yes, the oil cooling loop is completely internal in the AMR motor. They have a built in pump that runs automatically whenever the motor spins, an oil sump and an integrated liquid to liquid heat exchanger so that the I/O to the motor itself is only water/glycol.

You don't want to integrate it into your battery loop though. Batteries need to operate at a much lower temperature than motors and controllers, so they must be on a separate loop with a separate radiator. The motor, though, can be put in series with the Rinehart controller however--as long as your pump is sufficient. Put the motor downstream from the controller, as the controller likes to stay a little cooler. And put your drive system radiator down wind from the battery--you really want your batteries to always be below 40C and the closer you can keep them to 25C the better--especially during charging.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

dcb said:


> might provide some insights
> https://chargedevs.com/features/qa-with-teslas-lead-motor-engineer-full-interview/


The article doesn't give away technical details. But it shows* the rotor is all copper* (little slip needed, less rotor losses). It's pointed out somewhere else that the *rotor is water cooled* thus removing heat from the hottest part in an induction motor. Last but not least there is the sheer *speed* of 18000 rpm (I think 8000 at full torque) that produces power by speed rather than torque. Torque costs (in terms of weight), speed does not.

That should explain most of the "magic"


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

yah I'm sure, the induction vs bldc stator losses should be similar too given the same lamination thicknesses and materials, though it wouldn't surprise me if they figured out how to make the end-turn wires thicker or something, in addition to maximal copper fill.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

Hollie Maea said:


> Yes, I have experience with them--we put them in our 6000 pound mining transport vehicles and they work great.
> 
> Yes, the oil cooling loop is completely internal in the AMR motor. They have a built in pump that runs automatically whenever the motor spins, an oil sump and an integrated liquid to liquid heat exchanger so that the I/O to the motor itself is only water/glycol.
> 
> You don't want to integrate it into your battery loop though. Batteries need to operate at a much lower temperature than motors and controllers, so they must be on a separate loop with a separate radiator. The motor, though, can be put in series with the Rinehart controller however--as long as your pump is sufficient. Put the motor downstream from the controller, as the controller likes to stay a little cooler. And put your drive system radiator down wind from the battery--you really want your batteries to always be below 40C and the closer you can keep them to 25C the better--especially during charging.


Thank you for the advice! That gave great insight as to how to set the system up. Do you happen to know typical heat outputs (kW) for the motor and controller? I'd like to do some initial sizing for a radiator and water/glycol pump.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

dcb said:


> might provide some insights
> https://chargedevs.com/features/qa-with-teslas-lead-motor-engineer-full-interview/
> 
> this might have something to do with it
> ...


They must be using ANSYS or a similar software to simulate the magnetic and electrical aspect of the motor - especially if they are using 500 cores for sims.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

ZSharpell said:


> Thank you for the advice! That gave great insight as to how to set the system up. Do you happen to know typical heat outputs (kW) for the motor and controller? I'd like to do some initial sizing for a radiator and water/glycol pump.


Of course efficiency and heat generation vary with speed and load, but for most of the typical operating regions the motor is about 92% efficient and the controller is about 97% efficient, for an over all loss of about 12%. Multiply that by however much power you are hoping to get out of the system for your heat generation.

You need around 10 liters per minute of cooling flow for best results. Controller pressure drop at that level is .35 bar for a PM150, and slightly less for the motor. A Pierburg CWA-50 ran wide open is a good match for this set when in series (again, put the controller upstream since it is more efficient but needs cooler inlet temperatures).


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## camper (Jan 7, 2017)

Are there any 400 volt induction motors available that are less than 50kw and under 60 kg? I found this conceptual motor from Brusa. 

http://www.brusa.biz/en/products/drive/conceptual-samples/asm1-61712.html


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

hell there are still a few ac24LS for a couple hundred $ that can do that (in wye mode)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=97120&sid=8ec7286d06a9a133f3f61a4d0eeb1dde

peak kw 47
continuous kw 20
Maximum Operational Voltage (probably a controller limitation here) 400V


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

As far as a cheap 200kW controller, I do kits, and can do completed controllers. Or you can just do the instructable to save money:
http://www.instructables.com/id/200kW-AC-Motor-Controller-for-Electric-Car/

The software works for permanent magnet or induction.

The power section has been tested up to 600amp/phase. It has also been tested while configured as a series wound DC motor controller up to 1500amp (the 3 600v 600amp igbts all in parallel rather than 3 separate half bridges with 3 phases).


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## pnunes68 (Nov 5, 2016)

I am very interested in comparing notes on these Remy motors. I have 4 of these from that eBay listing that I was thinking of using for a 2 or 4 motor project in the future. 

However, I underestimated the expense of getting controllers for them right now. Rinehart seems the way to go, since you are paying for a turnkey system designed for Remy and similar motors. Support is also key.

Another possible source for controllers is John Deere. They now own Phoenix which makes these beasts. One model is a dual-inverter designed to drive twin motors independently.

https://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/power_electronics/power_electronics.page

I am wondering if any of these inverter suppliers discount for quantity purchases. If enough demand in the DIY community, a group buy might be arranged.


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## vnt78 (Feb 10, 2017)

pnunes68, If you dont mind me asking how much were you able to get each one of those motors for?


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

Sorry for the radio silence. I ended up purchasing two Remy HVH250-115 DOMs paired with Rinehart PM100DX controllers. We have started a conversion on an E46 330ci, so I'll make a new thread on that soon. The plan is to get this conversion done by the beginning of summer so that we can begin iterating our part designs based on what we learn from using OEM parts.

I'm just excited to see what the test bed 330ci can do after we put both motors in it (one front, one rear)!


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

If you combine this package with decent batteries you will have a winner!


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## pnunes68 (Nov 5, 2016)

vnt78, I believe he still has an eBay listing for the Remy HVH250-115 DOMs. I got a discount for ordering 4, so PM me for that info. I don't think the seller wants me to advertise here how cheap I got them. The big obstacle are the inverters and batteries. Trannys are also an issue since I am not interested in using these torque monsters with a stock tranny.


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## pnunes68 (Nov 5, 2016)

ZSharpell, good luck with your motors. I am very interested in seeing your approach to the tranny's. I know the guy selling these motors on eBay is also selling a Borg/Warner longitudinal tranny that is well suited for rear-wheel drive cars (rear diff). Might also work with 4WD vehicles with front/rear diffs. Otherwise, you would need to get Borg/Warner's transverse tranny with built in diff.


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## ZSharpell (Jun 28, 2016)

pnunes68 said:


> ZSharpell, good luck with your motors. I am very interested in seeing your approach to the tranny's. I know the guy selling these motors on eBay is also selling a Borg/Warner longitudinal tranny that is well suited for rear-wheel drive cars (rear diff). Might also work with 4WD vehicles with front/rear diffs. Otherwise, you would need to get Borg/Warner's transverse tranny with built in diff.


Fortunately, I have a team working on a drivetrain design right now. They just finished a critical design review, so final changes are being made, and they will begin ordering parts for it within the next month. The design incorporates a tolerance ring LSD and single gear reduction. Open diff was considered, but we have a partnership with the tolerance ring LSD company, so we are incorporating theirs instead.

The gears required to handle the power from the motors are ridiculous, but I look forward to testing the design. I can't exactly say that I've had these motors (or input shaft of the drivetrain) up to 10,600 rpm before, but we'll find out what it's like during the dyno test!


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## pnunes68 (Nov 5, 2016)

ZSharpell said:


> The gears required to handle the power from the motors are ridiculous...


Yeah, that is an understatement. This motor is a beast and will probably eat stock trannys for breakfast all day long.


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## sjd.aliyan (Jan 17, 2018)

ZSharpell said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> I am working on a test vehicle for a startup company, and I would like to know of suppliers (other than Tesla) for 3-phase AC induction motors operating from 300+ Volt sources. Our development pack has a nominal voltage of ~350 V, but I have only been able to find motors and corresponding controllers for 144 V (max) systems.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your help!


If you want to run a startup you need more than doing system design.
Suppliers who sale retail are available for everyone and you may not have a competitive benefit over them.and those who are oem suppliers will not work with a startup.bt you can talk to them.
what kind of vehicle are you looking after to build?


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