# Test drive a tesla S P85D



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Drove the 690hp all wheel drive beautiful black on black " space ship" today in Sacramento . It was in the insane mode but limited to 80 mph for test drive, which I promptly hit. I didn't ask about state of charge. Not even a hint of wheel spin, just the fastest acceleration I ever experienced . And that faint turbine sound is so hot! Such a easy car to drive, except for going much faster then it feels or sounds. Seats are improved since the first ones as is the interior. More Mercedes type of refinement. Thank you Jackson and the rest of the Tesla team.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

I had a test drive booked for this week.....but cancelled it !
I figured it would be the EV equivalent to a crack coke session... Highly addictive.
No way can I afford to buy one ( $150k+ Down here) and I could not live with the ongoing craving for more...


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

One of the things I noticed while looking over the suspension at the Tesla store was lower "A" control arm is split into front and back with 2 ball joints . I think I've seen this on Audi . 
Does anyone understand the advantages of this ?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

i think it's some over-engineered sorry excuse for a suspension, similar to the POS BMW 7-series. 

The two ball joints supposedly create a virtual pivot point in the plane of the tire, but there is no thrust control arm so the rubber bushings of the lateral control arms must do double duty. 

i posted some pictures of that mess and cussed it here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...S-Front-Suspension?highlight=front+suspension

The Tesla battery pack is an awesome design but i have no confidence in their suspension design whatsoever. Several owners reported wearing the inner shoulder of the rear tires down to the cords--same problem, no thrust control arms, rear wheels splayed out with large negative camber.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Looked over the thread . I see the virtual pivot point,to get larger rotors .
If I understand correctly, a 1 piece "A" arms front leg will share the thrust load 
with the back.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

The performance of the D makes me really excited to see what they have in store for the next generation of the Model S.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

This is the next generation Model S. They have an entirely new chassis to support AWD (whether you choose that option or not), they have obviously the AWD option as well as a slew of new electronics to support the automated driving assistance. Interior changes and options are now available. The only thing that they did not change is the body panels, and they reduced options on the color choice.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Do you have any links that show the changes?


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Nothing that compares the changes. I only know because of closely following the company. You can visit a Tesla store and look at the chassis. Some still have the old chassis on display, but some have the new AWD chassis. If you can find both you could compare for yourself. Seating options should be available to look at at the Tesla store since you can order with the new style seats or the old style. The store can also show you the new electronics related to the autopilot, and these are all standard if you purchase the technology package. Executive seating options and interior accent options are all available at the store as well. They removed one accent option (burlwood) as well as two exterior color choices (Green and Brown).


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

palmer_md said:


> This is the next generation Model S. They have an entirely new chassis to support AWD (whether you choose that option or not), they have obviously the AWD option as well as a slew of new electronics to support the automated driving assistance. Interior changes and options are now available. The only thing that they did not change is the body panels, and they reduced options on the color choice.


Those are what I would consider incremental changes and not generational ones, but its largely a matter of semantics.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> Those are what I would consider incremental changes and not generational ones, but its largely a matter of semantics.



I agree its semantics. I would consider an entirely new chassis as a next generation car, but most people would consider new body panels a new generation. Its interesting that most car manufacturers change body panels and leave the chassis, and if they do the chassis the body panels also change. This is the first vehicle I'm aware of that has had a chassis change and kept the old body panels.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

palmer_md said:


> This is the first vehicle I'm aware of that has had a chassis change and kept the old body panels.


That is interesting
I wonder if it was to do with the drop in value of the "old" model you get with the release of the new model

If the "new model" looks the same as the the old one then you don't get a jump in sales and a drop in value

But if Tesla is simply selling all they can make then they couldn't get a jump in sales and no visual change means they are not punishing their existing customers


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I saw the 2 wheel chassis on the showroom floor . It could be set up as 4X4 . The steering knuckles had axle holes , springs would need to be modified .


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

palmer_md said:


> I agree its semantics. I would consider an entirely new chassis as a next generation car, but most people would consider new body panels a new generation. Its interesting that most car manufacturers change body panels and leave the chassis, and if they do the chassis the body panels also change. This is the first vehicle I'm aware of that has had a chassis change and kept the old body panels.


What do you mean by "entirely new chassis?" Did they replace some of the suspension components with units that look different? Because that doesn't constitute a new chassis IMO. Unless they change suspension pickup points and/or vital chassis measurements like wheelbase and track width, then its not a new chassis. I'd be very surprised if most of the components were not interchangeable between new and old.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

aeroscott said:


> One of the things I noticed while looking over the suspension at the Tesla store was lower "A" control arm is split into front and back with 2 ball joints . I think I've seen this on Audi .
> Does anyone understand the advantages of this ?


It does provide a virtual ballpoint which affects steering scrub fore and aft, it also creates a dynamic caster and if tuned right improves camber lean-in when steered. It is a lot more math and modeling to get a slight gain in suspension dynamics.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Is that more caster on the outside turn wheel and less on the inside wheel? More camber on the inside wheel and less on the outside wheel?


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> What do you mean by "entirely new chassis?" Did they replace some of the suspension components with units that look different? Because that doesn't constitute a new chassis IMO. Unless they change suspension pickup points and/or vital chassis measurements like wheelbase and track width, then its not a new chassis. I'd be very surprised if most of the components were not interchangeable between new and old.


I have not looked closely at everything behind the firewall/a-pillar (I suspect only minor changes to the rear frame, but they do have a new rear suspension design in addition to the front.) Everything in front of it (firewall/a-pillar) is entirely new. New frame, new suspension design. The old design was an elongated hexagon and could never have allowed an axle to reach the wheel, and the original suspension design would also have not allowed the axle to pass through to the wheel. They also added several new crossmember components for mounting the new motor and controller. Frunk design is significantly smaller.

Again, were back to semantics...some say this is major and others will not...go to the design center to see for yourself how much changed. I've not found any good photos to show these changes, but its obvious when you look at the bare frame like they have in the design center.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

aeroscott said:


> Is that more caster on the outside turn wheel and less on the inside wheel? More camber on the inside wheel and less on the outside wheel?


The whole point of it is to help the wheel lean in to turns (like a bike).


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

@aero, i think you have it reversed--wouldn't you want more caster on the inside and more camber on the outside?

Nevertheless the wheelbase and fore-aft position is controlled by the compliance of the rubber bushings in the lateral control arms. As the rubber wears over time the joints will become loose and the car will develop a shimmy under braking at some resonant speed determined by the unsprung mass and the stiffness of the rubber in the bushings.

i don't have photos of the dual motor suspension yet but will be interested in any changes.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I was thinking that the virtual point moved in the same direction as the knuckle . I may have it backwards.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

palmer_md said:


> I have not looked closely at everything behind the firewall/a-pillar (I suspect only minor changes to the rear frame, but they do have a new rear suspension design in addition to the front.) Everything in front of it (firewall/a-pillar) is entirely new. New frame, new suspension design. The old design was an elongated hexagon and could never have allowed an axle to reach the wheel, and the original suspension design would also have not allowed the axle to pass through to the wheel. They also added several new crossmember components for mounting the new motor and controller. Frunk design is significantly smaller.
> 
> Again, were back to semantics...some say this is major and others will not...go to the design center to see for yourself how much changed. I've not found any good photos to show these changes, but its obvious when you look at the bare frame like they have in the design center.


The images in the Design Studio are tiny, but I don't see the suspension differences you describe. The mounting crossmembers could easily be a bolt in subframe. The frunk design is identical, except they removed the "microwave" area. I'm gonna have to see some better pictures.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

rochesterricer said:


> The images in the Design Studio are tiny, but I don't see the suspension differences you describe. The mounting crossmembers could easily be a bolt in subframe. The frunk design is identical, except they removed the "microwave" area. I'm gonna have to see some better pictures.


Like I said, pictures are not going to do it, you have to see it in person. Suspension is hard to get a picture of because its behind the frame and a tire/wheel usually.










I have not seen a good image of the new chassis, but here is the old one. You can clearly see there is not any way to get an axle to the front wheel, and the suspension strut passes directly behind the center of the wheel as well. The new chassis moved the strut out of the way and redesigned the frame to allow for a passage through the frame to the wheel. Essentially all new front suspension design, and the rear as well has been totally redesigned, and mostly for handling and better tire wear as I understand it.

Yes, I agree, that other parts are just brackets and such, and that is why it can be argued that this is not new but just incremental changes, but from looking at both of them first hand, to me it look like some serious changes to the platform underneath, but the same body on top.


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## Zextraterrestrial (Dec 31, 2014)

rectangular subframe now - from D unveiling video. 
stops short of the front drive shaft where hex frame continues to just in front of the firewall
(is the only way to post pics here through a link?)










https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1mQ0ZgSaKLHZDhYb2dIckE1VW8/view?usp=sharing


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Here is a video walkaround. I still don't see the changes in suspension geometry you describe, but I will have to take your word for it until I see one up close.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Me too! look up the Hammer wagon .A hot rod tuner car with v8 , e class Mercedes wagon from the 90's . I'm thinking 2 volt transaxles in the 4matic model. Their coupes were neat too and there was a convertible . no 4matic in the 2 doors models. This E class or 124 series was the last of the built for life Benz's and I can get most of my parts at Pick and pull.

added;
1986 was the year, AMG was the tunner and they cost 190,000 would out run about anything.
Of course they did a lot other things like , bushing , quicker steering, sway bars etc.
And with the standard hydro shocks net 1800 lbs.cargo.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Here's a picture of the 2WD front left steering knuckle with the two control arms showing the virtual pivot. The top of the knuckle is held by the black steel C-arm, but there are no adjustments for caster or camber up there, it is all fixed. Adjustment is done at the inner attach points of the lower contol arms which have eccentric washers.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

kennybobby said:


> ...Adjustment is done at the inner attach points of the lower contol arms which have eccentric washers.


I imagine they have a pretty consistent production tolerance on that. It would be pretty easy to start making a new upper arm that was double adjustable if you wanted to.


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