# Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Input your data into:

http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculation.html

and see what happens.

In the gear ratio section. Input a 1 to 1 gear ratio and run the program 
and keep increasing the gear ratio until:

The gear ratio is the overall gear ratio of a transmission gear times the 
axle gear.

Run the program and increase the gear ratio until the motor ampere is at the 
maximum continuous rating for the motor you are going to use.

My Warp 9 has a 199 amp continuous duty and has a service factor of about 
2.0 for about a minute, meaning 200 amps x 2 = 400 amps for this short of 
acceleration time.

Try different voltage and hp motors in this program. My best results was 
the highest voltage rating motor.

Also look at the battery amp vs the motor ampere. Depending on what kind of 
controller. The ratio between these two amperes could be 200 motor amperes 
while you are pulling 75 battery amps if you have a controller like a Zilla 
or equal to.

>From this data, you can tell what axle ratio you would need without a 
transmission or a combination of a transmission and axle ratios, for what 
speed, motor and battery ampere you want to attain.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chazersize" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:25 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


>
> My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity for having a tranny 
> to
> do an ICE to electric conversion on a 65 mustang. Is the tranny required
> for the conversion or can we have an adapter to go directly to the drive
> shaft (or rear end)? Would the ratio (gearing?) be too low? What would 
> be
> the potential problems by not having the tranny? It would save us some
> weight and $1000 for the adaptor plate.
> Thanks!
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Electric-motor-with-no-tranny-for-conversion-tp17254470p17254470.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the drive
shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.

Without the torque multiplication provided by the transmission, you need
to have a motor and controller capable producing the huge amounts of
torque need for hills, acceleration, etc.

This means that you need a larger motor, a much more powerful controller
and possibly some kind of external cooling for the motor, since it will
often be running at low RPMs where it's internal fan doesn't provide much
cooling. If you combine low RPMs with high torque (i.e. climbing a hill)
then you will quickly overheat the motor without external cooling.

Also, while electric motors are very efficient over a wide band of RPMs,
efficiency tends to fall of quickly at very low and very high RPMs. So
around town driving will be less efficient without the tranny.
High current and low RPMs is VERY inefficient, as well as causing over
heating problems, so climbing hills without a tranny is extremely
inefficient.

Bypassing the tranny (which usually comes free with most conversions) will
almost double the cost of the motor & controller, and possibly reduce your
range.

It's been done, drag racers frequently go this way, but most folks that
have done it wouldn't recommend it for a commuter vehicle.

>
> My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity for having a tranny
> to
> do an ICE to electric conversion on a 65 mustang. Is the tranny required
> for the conversion or can we have an adapter to go directly to the drive
> shaft (or rear end)? Would the ratio (gearing?) be too low? What would
> be
> the potential problems by not having the tranny? It would save us some
> weight and $1000 for the adaptor plate.
> Thanks!
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Electric-motor-with-no-tranny-for-conversion-tp17254470p17254470.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I would see what Otmar who makes the Zilla controller has to say.
http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?p=22



> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the drive
> > shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

You will save money and have more simple wiring because it gives you reverse
and you only need the little 3 speed,
and you still have to build something to hang the motor on any how unless
you plane on putting it over and on the rearend. you don't really need the
clutch/fly wheel



> chazersize <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity for having a tranny to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

So far, nobody has mention what you need to go in reversed with no 
transmission. This requires a reversing contactor that is a double pole 
contactor that is mechanical and electrical interlock, so one is off while 
the other is on. You also need a main contactor, so you can completely turn 
off the positive battery power from the battery.

The main contactor could be a two pole contactor that completely cuts off 
both the negative and positive power from the battery, or use another 
separate contactor on the negative side with is normally call a back up 
safety contactor.

You will still need a Forward-Off-Reverse control switching mechanism which 
are normally made with a cable operated straight line shifter, or peddle 
shifters that can operated micro switches.

If you take too much time in the off position when shifting from forward to 
reversed, you may have to precharge the controller each time you make this 
change.

Another method we use for reversing some motors, is the use of two large L 
frame circuit breakers that do not have the overload trips in them, making 
them a enclose transfer switch. They can be remotely operate by a motorize 
circuit breaker kit, that is also electrical interlock. The placement of 
the circuit breakers with the load ends buss bar together, provides the 
mechanical interlock.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> I would see what Otmar who makes the Zilla controller has to say.
> http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?p=22
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> > > It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the drive
> > > shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>> My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity for having a
>> tranny to do an ICE to electric conversion on a 65 Mustang. Is the
>> tranny required for the conversion or can we have an adapter to go
>> directly to the drive shaft (or rear end)? Would the ratio gearing
>> be too low? What would be the potential problems by not having the
>> tranny? It would save us some weight and $1000 for the adaptor plate.



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the drive
> > shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

After driving with a zilla 1k connected to the stock transmission, the
feel I got was that 2 9"s with just the rear end reduction would be the
same as the one 9 that I drive in 2nd and third/fourth only.

The single 9 and stock tranny provides reverse, a 2:1 2nd and a 1:1 4th.

Dual motors with series parallel switching provides Double the torque at
the same amps up to 1/2 speed and double the torque as 1 9" at the upper
half of the speeds.(1/2 the torque at twice the speed times 2 motors).
Reverse is provided by the contactors that handle S/P plus a few.

If I had to do again, I would try for dual 9's instead of adapting to
the tranny.


In Fact, Two motors look like they would fit in the space of the fuel
tank, which in the 300zx was right behind the diffy. If I could put it
back there then I could put bateries under the hood in two layers and
get rid of the driveline entirely. (The 300zx has IRS so the diffy
doesn't move up and down. Use a boat v-drive or just remove the ring and
pinion and replace with an extension box, a chain ring mounted in place
of the ring!



ascii art warning.

original
diffy_ _____________________
/ | | |
===/ | | old gas tank |
| | |
=== | | |
\ | | |
\ | |_____________________|
\___| 



becomes rear view
____eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 
/ ccccccccc / MMMMMMMMMeeeeeeeeeMMMMMMMMM
===/ ccc c / MMMMMMMMMe c eMMMMMMMMM
c c / MMMMMMMMMe===S===eMMMMMMMMM
=== c c / MMMMMMMMMe c eMMMMMMMMM
\ cc eeeeeeee/ MMMMMMMMMe eMMMMMMMMM
\ / e e
\___ee/ eeeeeee

Where e is the extension case, C is a dual roller motorcycle chain and
the MMM are the motors on each side like "gone postal"
This would be partially filled with oil however.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> >> My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity for having a
> >> tranny to do an ICE to electric conversion on a 65 Mustang. Is the
> >> tranny required for the conversion or can we have an adapter to go
> >> directly to the drive shaft (or rear end)? Would the ratio gearing
> >> be too low? What would be the potential problems by not having the
> >> tranny? It would save us some weight and $1000 for the adaptor plate.
>


> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the drive
> >> shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roland wrote:
> > My Warp 9 has a 199 amp continuous duty and has a service factor of about
> > 2.0 for about a minute, meaning 200 amps x 2 = 400 amps for this short of
> > acceleration time.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hi Peter and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for
conversion
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:20:44 -0600 (MDT)

>> >> My wife and I are trying to figure out the necessity
>> >> for having a tranny to do an ICE to electric
>> >> conversion on a 65 Mustang. Is the tranny required
>> >> for the conversion or can we have an adapter to go
>directly to the drive shaft (or rear end)? Would the ratio
>> >> gearing be too low? What would be the potential
>> >> problems by not having the tranny? It would save us
>>some weight and $1000 for the adaptor plate. 


> >> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> It is technically possible to connect the motor directly
> >>> to the drive shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and
> >>generally less efficient.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Would it be possible and simpler to install a cheap/low voltage
controller just for reverse.
Turn it off and on with a switch.
With the infrequency of use, limited speed and power needed for reverse,
I was wondering if this would be a possibility.

Just an idea from someone who knows enough to be dangerous

Dennis 

-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

So far, nobody has mention what you need to go in reversed with no
transmission. This requires a reversing contactor that is a double pole
contactor that is mechanical and electrical interlock, so one is off
while the other is on. You also need a main contactor, so you can
completely turn off the positive battery power from the battery.

The main contactor could be a two pole contactor that completely cuts
off both the negative and positive power from the battery, or use
another separate contactor on the negative side with is normally call a
back up safety contactor.

You will still need a Forward-Off-Reverse control switching mechanism
which are normally made with a cable operated straight line shifter, or
peddle shifters that can operated micro switches.

If you take too much time in the off position when shifting from forward
to reversed, you may have to precharge the controller each time you make
this change.

Another method we use for reversing some motors, is the use of two large
L frame circuit breakers that do not have the overload trips in them,
making them a enclose transfer switch. They can be remotely operate by
a motorize circuit breaker kit, that is also electrical interlock. The
placement of the circuit breakers with the load ends buss bar together,
provides the mechanical interlock.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> I would see what Otmar who makes the Zilla controller has to say.
> http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?p=22
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> > > It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the
> drive
> > > shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello Dennis,

Using another controller would work, but you still would have to have a 
interlock switching circuit between the forward controller and reverse 
controller.

You can not relied on a electrical interlock alone. There must be a 
mechanical interlock. What if the electrical interlock went bad, then you 
will have a direct short between the power leads if both controllers went on 
line.

When we install a reversing contactor for motors, these contactors all have 
mechanical interlock plus a electrical interlock, plus motor overloads, plus 
a disconnect switch and a fuse on the feed side.

Just type in your search engine " Reversing Motor Circuits " and see how 
they are set up.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


>
> Would it be possible and simpler to install a cheap/low voltage
> controller just for reverse.
> Turn it off and on with a switch.
> With the infrequency of use, limited speed and power needed for reverse,
> I was wondering if this would be a possibility.
>
> Just an idea from someone who knows enough to be dangerous
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:05 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
> So far, nobody has mention what you need to go in reversed with no
> transmission. This requires a reversing contactor that is a double pole
> contactor that is mechanical and electrical interlock, so one is off
> while the other is on. You also need a main contactor, so you can
> completely turn off the positive battery power from the battery.
>
> The main contactor could be a two pole contactor that completely cuts
> off both the negative and positive power from the battery, or use
> another separate contactor on the negative side with is normally call a
> back up safety contactor.
>
> You will still need a Forward-Off-Reverse control switching mechanism
> which are normally made with a cable operated straight line shifter, or
> peddle shifters that can operated micro switches.
>
> If you take too much time in the off position when shifting from forward
> to reversed, you may have to precharge the controller each time you make
> this change.
>
> Another method we use for reversing some motors, is the use of two large
> L frame circuit breakers that do not have the overload trips in them,
> making them a enclose transfer switch. They can be remotely operate by
> a motorize circuit breaker kit, that is also electrical interlock. The
> placement of the circuit breakers with the load ends buss bar together,
> provides the mechanical interlock.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
> > I would see what Otmar who makes the Zilla controller has to say.
> > http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?p=22
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]>


> > > wrote:
> > > > It is technically possible to connect the motor directly to the
> > drive
> > > > shaft, but it is MUCH more expensive and generally less efficient.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I was just going to use a 1000watt 48vlt PM motor for the reverse and if I
can figure it out maybe some regen braking



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Dennis,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello Stephen,

The service factor of a motor, (SF) is the percentage of over voltage and/or 
over ampere that a motor is design for.

If a motor has a service factor of 1.0, and if the running continuous duty 
of the motor is 120 volts at 10 amps, then that is the maximum voltage and 
fuse you install for that motor.

If the SF is 1.25, then the motor can have a install overload up to 1.25 x 
10 or 12.5 amps. After the motor overload unit which is install at the 
motor, we can any size conductor and circuit breaker feeders to that 
overload.

My GE traction motor has a label on it showing the continuous running 
amperes and has a 1.4 SF for continuous running voltage. The non-continuous 
ampere is design for a 2.2 SF.

For the Warp 9 motor, I had to contact Net Gain on the specs on this motor, 
for continuous running ampere which is 199 amps at 192 volts, and over 
current data for certain amount of time.


You can contact Net Gain Rep. George F. Hamistra [email protected]

You tell him what your vehicle weighs, differential gear ratio, transmission 
gear, size of wheels, type of tires, type of driving you do, type of 
vehicle, type of motor you want, type of controller, battery type, voltage, 
ampere hour, maximum and minimum ambient temperatures, grades, and road 
surfaces.

He will e-mail you a spread sheet with all the data you ever want for want, 
that will list the best motor rpm, per motor voltage, per motor ampere, per 
battery voltage and battery ampere.

It will also list the best motor and controller combinations for what 
vehicle type you want.

For my EV with the Warp 9 motor, it becomes a maximum ampere of 199 motor 
continuous ampere and 400 motor non-continuous ampere in 2nd gear at 3300 
motor rpm at 30 mph for the running efficiency.

The Warp 11 motor will run at the same Warp 9 efficiency at about 1800 rpm 
at 30 mph for the same torque output.

Roland





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen West" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion




> > Roland wrote:
> > > My Warp 9 has a 199 amp continuous duty and has a service factor of
> > > about
> > > 2.0 for about a minute, meaning 200 amps x 2 = 400 amps for this short
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> Do the reasons not to go direct drive change, if we're talking about an
> AC system?

Yes, mostly. Though even an AC system could gain some benefit from a two
speed transmission. But, I'm not aware of any AC system that would
provide even moderately acceptable performance with the motor connected
directly to the differential in a Mustang.

Most (all?) of the currently available automotive AC systems have
relatively low torque and make their power at relatively high RPM.
The exact opposite of what you need for this particular case.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello Randy,

You would have to test out that PM motor by it self without the main motor 
controller connected up yet.

At a 1000 watts at 48 volts, this is about 20 amps. It takes me about 4 
amps at 180 volts to go in reverse with a overall gear ratio of about 25:1 
which is the 4.5:1 reverse gear times the 5.57:1 axle gear.

If I am at 7200 lbs at 25:1 at 4 amps at 180 volts then:

A 3600 lbs EV at 25:1 would be about 2 amps and etc.

Now that a EV does not have a transmission and a gearing multiplier, the 
larger gear you can get into a differential is maybe a 4.56:1 and up to 
6.0:1 with a modified axle.

Lets say you have a 5.0:1 axle gear, and your vehicle weighs 1800 lbs, then:

A 1800 lb EV at 25:1 would take about 1 amp.

A 1800 lb EV at 5:1 ratio would be about 5 x 1 = 5 amps.

5 amps times 48 volts = 240 watts.

A 3600 lb EV at 5:1 = 480 watts and etc.

So this 1kw motor may work if you have the correct gearing. But you will 
still have to mechanical and electrical interlock with the main controller.

If you electrical contact separation is only a small three position 2 pole 
toggle switch to control the motor controller or the PM controller, this 
type of switch could go into fault.

I would have lot more separation by adding a banking of selector switches 
between these two controllers, if you do not use a mechanical interlock.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Randy Eckert" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> I was just going to use a 1000watt 48vlt PM motor for the reverse and if I
> can figure it out maybe some regen braking
>
>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Dennis,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Essentially all vehicles built as EVs from scratch have no
> >> transmissions (electric cars, trains, buses, golf carts, fork
> >> lifts, etc.)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> ...
> > No; I think it is a mistake to go transmissionless without also changing
> > the differential ratio. My Renault LeCar has a transaxle, so I can't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Lee, I expected better from you.

It's not just about how MUCH torque you can generate, it's about how LONG
you can generate it.

Assuming a fairly normal conversion of our Mustang (except for the missing
tranny), even with a 5:1 diff ratio my calculations indicate that climbing
an 8% hill (pretty common) requires around 400 amps for a 9" ADC and
around 360 amps with a transwarp 11".

The Zilla 1K is only rated for 300 amps continuous. So unless the hill is
pretty short, it won't make it up. If it has to spend more than a minute
or so climbing it, the maximum hill the 9" ADC & Z1k combo can handle is
about 5%
You'd need either the Z2k and a TW 11" or the Z1k and the TW 13" if you
want to climb some of the steeper, but still common hills (6-10%) of any
length.

That's why I said you'll need more than double the rated motor/controller
combo if you are planing on climbing hills.

I'll grant you my efficiency estimates were off. I had (incorrectly)
assumed that replacing the ring and pinion gears would be very expensive. 
I'd looked into doing this for a 4runner differential a few years back and
the prices I came up with were in the $500-$600 price range.
I figured the beefier ones used in the Ford 9" would cost more, but I
guess it's one of those supply and demand things. I checked a couple
places online and the 9" ones can be purchased for less than $200.

It still adds cost to the conversion, but a 5:1 R&P would make it doable.
Assuming you are willing to shell out the big bucks for the oversized
motor& controller




> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> Essentially all vehicles built as EVs from scratch have no
> >>> transmissions (electric cars, trains, buses, golf carts, fork
> >>> lifts, etc.)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello All,

They finally flatten out one section of road here, in Great Falls, Montana 
for about 1000 feet. So I went to try it with my 7100 lb EV in 3rd gear 
with a overall ratio of 5.57:1.

Now I know how all you feel who lives only in the dead flat lands. Instead 
of pulling 300 amps up and 0 amps at 25 mph going down on these roller 
coaster roads, I was only pulling 125 to 150 motor amperes and 50 battery 
amperes on this stretch.

I came into this section on a slight down hill run at 45 and was able to 
maintain that speed at this ampere.

But it takes about 600 amps to start to move this vehicle at a 5.57:1 gear, 
so I use a 19.495:1 gear that keeps me below 200 amps.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion




> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> Essentially all vehicles built as EVs from scratch have no
> > >> transmissions (electric cars, trains, buses, golf carts, fork
> > >> lifts, etc.)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Today, we drove Michael Shoop's Volt Vette (1987 Corvette EV
> > conversion) for the first time. It has a Zilla 2K controller,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Mark Eidson wrote:
> 
> > Does this apply to both automatic and manual transmissions? me
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Cost is NOT an advantage to the transmissionless approach.
> 
> I agree; it is not something you do as an expedient solution in a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > It's not just about how MUCH torque you can generate, it's about how
> > LONG you can generate it.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>> The Zilla 1K is only rated for 300 amps continuous. So unless the
>> hill is pretty short, it won't make it up. If it has to spend more
>> than a minute or so climbing it, the maximum hill the 9" ADC & Z1k
>> combo can handle is about 5%
>
> I assume you mean an 8% grade (422 feet rise per mile)?
>
> We can ask Otmar, but I'll bet the Z1k can carry 300 amps for a lot more
> than 1 minute. Even the lowly Curtis 1221 can do it for 5 minutes.

The curtis can do it for 5 minutes when it starts from cold.

I'm sure the Z1k can do it for 5 minutes or more, if IT is cold. However,
diving around with no tranmission uses a lot of motor amps. It is quit
likely that the controller will be somewhat warm by the time you start the
hill. Especially if you have one hill following another (think roller
coaster)

If you live somewhere that doesn't have any hills, it's a moot point. My
point is that if you live somewhere that DOES have hills, you have to take
the worse case scenario into account. If you don't then (best case) you
end up stuck on the side of the road waiting for you system to cool off,
or (worse case) you damage something expensive.

Didn't the Sparrow and the Zebra (both light weight, direct drive) have
problems with frying their controllers on hills?

>> You'd need either the Z2k and a TW 11" or the Z1k and the TW 13" if
>> you want to climb some of the steeper, but still common hills (6-10%)
>> of any length.
>
> Agreed. That's why we used the Z2K and Transwarp 11" in the Volt Vette.

Which is more than twice the torque needed for a typical EV with the
transission right? Isn't that what I originally said?



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> We can ask Otmar, but I'll bet the Z1k can carry 300 amps for a lot more
> >> than 1 minute. Even the lowly Curtis 1221 can do it for 5 minutes.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I have no doubt that the Zilla 1k can handle 300 amps continously, as I
pointed out the specs clearly state that it can handle 300 amps
continuously.

The original question is, how long can it handle 400 amps? How long can
it handle 400 amps when the controller is already warm to start with?

Climbing a 5% grade with a 9" ADC works out to around 300 amps, climbing a
steeper hill will require MORE amps.
Many cities have a lot of hills, some (like San Francisco) have a lot of
steep hills. It is entirely possible to go up and down multiple hills in
one short trip, or to have to climb a long, fairly steep, hill.
Driving in a city means slower speeds, usually 25-35 mph.

Without a transmission, it requires virtually the same amount of current
to climb a hill at any speed from 10-40mph. The slower you go up a hill,
the more time you spend on the hill drawing high currents.
Mix a hill with heavy traffic and you easily spend more than a minute or
two on even a short hill. At 25 mph, it takes almost 2 1/2 minutes just
to go 1 mile.
Going up and down multiple hills can result in having to climb a hill
while the controller is still hot from the previous hill.

I'm not saying this is common, or that everyone needs to worry about it,
just that it's possible.

It's not a simple "if you don't have a transmission you need to be able
produce twice the torque" equation.
Twice the torque requires twice the amps. All else being equal, twice the
amps equals FOUR TIMES as much waste heat.
Larger controllers/motors can handle more heat, but just because the
motor/controller can produce twice the current, doesn't automatically mean
that it can handle twice the current for twice as long.

Case in point, the Curtis 1231C is rated 500 amps and can handle 225 amps
for 1 hour. The Z1k is rated 1000 amps, but is only rated for 300 amps
continuous. For EV purposes 1hr is virtually the same as continuous.
So we have a controller rated for twice the (max) current, but only 1/3
more continuous current.

So, getting back to my original point, climbing steep and/or long hills
without a transmission can require components rated for more than twice
the torque. It could require ones rated for three times the torque or
more.



> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >>> We can ask Otmar, but I'll bet the Z1k can carry 300 amps for a lot
> >>> more
> >>> than 1 minute. Even the lowly Curtis 1221 can do it for 5 minutes.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > But, going transmissionless is a good solution in a scratch
> > built EV (like our Sunrise),
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> The Zilla 1K is rated for 300A continuous based on a coolant temp of 50
> degrees C.

Actually, it's rated for "greater than 350A continuous" @50C coolant temp.

I live in a hilly area and have pulled >400A for over a minute at the end 
of a 5 mile run. I have a tiny PC water cooling radiator and have NEVER 
had any thermal cutback. With a decent radiator, I'd bet you could get 
450-500A for several minutes.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> 
> > > The Zilla 1K is rated for 300A continuous based on a
> > > coolant temp of 50 degrees C.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > I still think you would find that a tranny is cheaper for the Sunrise
> > than paying for a larger motor and controller, and a non-standard
> > gearset for the rear end.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Tim Medeck here, 



> The Sunrise is in my shop, and Shoop's Vette just left the shop under it's own power a couple of days ago. > Lee Hart wrote:> > > But, going transmissionless is a good solution in a scratch> > built EV (like our Sunrise),
> Roger wrote:> Absolutely! I still think you would find that a tranny is cheaper for the Sunrise than paying for a larger motor and controller, and a non-standard gearset for the rear end. After all, you are building the Sunrise with used drivetrain/brake parts from a T-bird anyway, so including a used 4-speed wouldn't be at all out of place. Use a tranny compatible with readily available S10 or Ranger adapter plates for convenience.
> There is no room for a transmission in the Sunrise-EV2. With the central battery tunnel, and the differential rotated 180 degrees so the motor points toward the rear of the car, it is still a tight squeeze to get everything crammed in the available space.
> > However, not having the tranny allows the drivetrain weight to be reduced (a slightly larger motor will not be an entire tranny heavier than the smaller one, and the controllers will be virtually the same weight). With an IRS diff going trannyless allows for improved drivetrain configuration (the motor can mount directly or nearly directly to the diff), and this could allow the vehicle to be designed more simply or lighter, or to carry a larger battery pack, etc.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Tim Medeck wrote:
> 
> Looks good, Tim! I don't have any disagreements with anything you said.
> You also made some good points on why Michael is converting such an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> Seems to depend where you look ;^>

Haven't checked the Cafe Electric website in a while... I wonder if the 
lower numbers could be for light vehicles without water cooling? I suppose 
someone could actually bother to ask Otmar.

> What sort of EV do you have (weight, voltage, etc.)?
http://www.evalbum.com/776

It's an '87 VW Cabriolet with Impulse9, Z1k-LV, and 114V of T-105 
batteries. Typical weight with passengers is 3,600 pounds! I'll try some 
hills in 3rd and 4th to see what the difference is. I could probably 
calculate the difference if I could find my original design spreadsheet.

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> 
> > Haven't checked the Cafe Electric website in a while... I
> > wonder if the lower numbers could be for light vehicles
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Tim Medeck wrote:
> 
> > There is no room for a transmission in the Sunrise-EV2. With
> > the central battery tunnel, and the differential rotated 180
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > We considered it; but the Sunrise is designed to be an EV;
> > there isn't any place for a transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Adrian,
I am stepping into the middle of this and have just registered to join 
the forum. Otmar told me all of his controllers need to be water cooled. I 
had asked if it was necessary for a 1K running at less than 350A. He said 
it was necessary. I suspect that he has a heat sink that is contained in 
his cooling chamber and he runs water over it to cool it. This is very 
effective and much more effective than air cooling. His recommended pump is 
only 20W, so it is not a big hit on your efficiency.
Richard
Best Regards,

Richard W. Marks

President

EnVironmental Transportation Solutions, LLC

313-717-4321

www.EcoVElectric.com

http://EcoVElectric.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


>> Seems to depend where you look ;^>
>
> Haven't checked the Cafe Electric website in a while... I wonder if the
> lower numbers could be for light vehicles without water cooling? I suppose
> someone could actually bother to ask Otmar.
>
>> What sort of EV do you have (weight, voltage, etc.)?
> http://www.evalbum.com/776
>
> It's an '87 VW Cabriolet with Impulse9, Z1k-LV, and 114V of T-105
> batteries. Typical weight with passengers is 3,600 pounds! I'll try some
> hills in 3rd and 4th to see what the difference is. I could probably
> calculate the difference if I could find my original design spreadsheet.
>
> -Adrian
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> On 23 May 2008 at 11:33, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > There may not be any place for a conventional RWD tranny because the car was
> > designed to be FWD, but being designed as an EV does not automatically equate
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

David Roden wrote

> Lee would obviously know more about this than I, but I think
> the Sunrise was originally designed for the Solectria/Brusa
> fixed-ratio AT1200 transaxle with integrated AC motor,
> mounted in the front and driving the front wheels.

Lee's website states that the original Sunrise used '94 Metro and Neon running gear (Metro in the front, Neon in the rear), and that it used a 50kW air-cooled AC motor with a Metro (presumably from the same '94 as the suspension bits) transaxle locked in 2nd gear.

> A similar item is still available under the Solectria marque
> and Brusa appears to be developing a new one. If Lee's mods
> haven't made it impossible to fit, that would certainly be an option.

Lee's webpage (or an email of his?) has stated that he wants RWD to allow a longer battery box to fit that is easier to remove from the car. He has indicated that he likes and considered using a transaxle, but couldn't find one he liked (the Metro transaxle was considered too weak, especially given that the EV2 version of the Sunrise is planned to have a curb weight well over the original Sunrise's GVWR).

I believe Lee's intention is for the EV2 to allow each builder to choose whatever drivetrain they wish to install (AC or DC), but I'm not sure changing the EV2 back to FWD would be feasible unless the individual builder was prepared to do a bunch of engineering work to undo much of the EV2 changes.

Cheers,

Roger.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> We considered it; but the Sunrise is designed to be an EV;
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> We considered it; but the Sunrise is designed to be an EV; there
> >> isn't any place for a transmission.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> 
> > The original used NiMH batteries, and now they're trying to
> > get 60 miles range with lead batteries. Much more space is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>
> With transmission:
> $2000 premium for manual transmission Corvette
> $400 adapter plate and coupler
> $1975 Zilla Z1K-LV controller
> $1430 Netgain WarP 9" motor
> -----
> $5805 total
>

Where the heck do you get an adapter plate AND coupler for only $400?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > > being designed as an EV does not automatically equate to
> > > having to be designed without space for a tranny.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>> With transmission:
>> $2000 premium for manual transmission Corvette
>> $400 adapter plate and coupler
>> $1975 Zilla Z1K-LV controller
>> $1430 Netgain WarP 9" motor
>> -----
>> $5805 total



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Where the heck do you get an adapter plate AND coupler for only $400?
> 
> Just guessing. No one has one for a Corvette to get a price. I used a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > I believe Lee's intention is for the EV2 to allow each builder to
> > choose whatever drivetrain they wish to install (AC or DC), but I'm
> > not sure changing the EV2 back to FWD would be feasible unless the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> One could start with a blank sheet of paper and design an EV
> >> that did have space for a transmission. But in the cases I
> >> know of, the designers chose instead to make it a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The Tropica was not very well designed. It had two A89 motors, which are
> > too small for an EV even with a transmission. And, it had a 72v pack,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > I was somewhat tongue-in-cheek observing that just because some
> > EVs are built without trannies doesn't automatically make it a good
> > idea or successful.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> > The exceptions are the rare ones.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
> 
> Yes, against the wishes of the original founder. It is now back to a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Suggestion, go to CafeElectric and read Otmar's comments on why you need 
multiple speeds. While he is focusing mostly on series DC motors, it also 
applies to AC motors, too. You want as small a motor to get the job done 
and a transmission helps greatly. Why are ICE's all behind transmissions? 
Think about it.
Rich
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 7:18 PM, storm connors <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
> >
> > Yes, against the wishes of the original founder. It is now back to a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I am new but I follow the EV world very closely. I have been in 
automotive for 36 years and have good understanding on how to design 
vehicles and EV's.
Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the 
breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They have 
had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly 
going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit these 
with the right transmissions. If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology 
right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right? I 
think Tesla may not survive through the end of the year, unfortunately. 
They are way too far out on the limb and don't understand automotive very 
well. Their VC investors are getting nervous about their inability to 
deliver on their promises. Look out!
All EV's have some form of "transmission." Some are single speed and 
these usually use AC induction motors or DC brushless motors because both 
motors are capable of 10,000 rpms. With DC brush motors, you are typically 
limited to about 5,000 to 6,000 rpms. You need a transmission to have 
acceleration and hill climbing ability and then a lower (numerically) to 
have high speed ability (say 60-70 mph).
Rich
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:20 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >>> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>The Chrysler had a 2-speed gearbox about which I know nothing =

> more

The Chrysler TEVan used a "Gear Vendors" 2 speed transaxle. They mention it
on their website.

It has only High and Low, Reverse is accomplished by switching the field on
the SepEx motor and of course locking you out of high range. The "Park"
position mechanically locks the gears together. I don't know what the gear
ratio's are but "low" is not used over 40 Mph, and at that speed the motor
is probably turning about 6K. There is no method to govern top speed but
I've had mine up to slightly over 80 and motor speed was probably 6K.

HTH

Jim
www.evalbum.com/425
www.evalbum.com/804
www.evalbum.com/1703

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Hmm... you need to look at the situation under a 'Vette. The frame
> > doesn't come anywhere near the transmission. The steel frame rails are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> David Roden wrote:
> 
> > On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

It seems so obvious to me, but I appreciate that we all have our own visions
of how to perform our conversions. I'm sure there are things I did on my EV
that others shake their heads over! ;^> 

Roger, 
Sorry but it is apparently not so obvious.  Your approach uses the tunnel
and a substantial part of the engine compartment for the drive train leaving
not so much for the batteries. The method used mounts the motor directly to
the differential. This makes the drive train about 3 feet long in total
length and being flipped to the rear it leaves the entire tunnel and front
engine bay for batteries.

Being well versed in the Porsche 928 (took one apart and put it back
together. http://members.rennlist.com/mgrasser Still have the web page but
sold the car) I would have considered morphing either a 924 transaxle or a
new C6 transaxle into the project and mounted a single or dual 8 inch motor
directly to the front of the transmission. This would have put the motor in
the tunnel freeing up the entire front and rear of the car for batteries and
given the added benefit of having a transmission.

Mark Grasser


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

both of these were factory conversions. they were not
designed as ev first they were gas powered. just
something to think about


> --- Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > David Roden wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

>Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the 
>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They have 
>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly 
>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit these 
>with the right transmissions. 

Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out with the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with a single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission designer and didn't think there would be issues.

>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology 
>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?

Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor, reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120 mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission, they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work out. So now they are designing their own.


Chris Leone
University of Florida
Student of Mechanical Engineering
352-278-1176



----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


Rich
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:20 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >>> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

CVT (constantly variable) trannys are the latest and greatest thing in the auto world. Wouldn't it make sense to use this type of tranny?

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Leone <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 5:07 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

>Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the 
>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They have 
>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly 
>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit these 
>with the right transmissions. 

Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out with the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with a single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission designer and didn't think there would be issues.

>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology 
>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?

Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor, reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120 mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission, they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work out. So now they are designing their own.


Chris Leone
University of Florida
Student of Mechanical Engineering
352-278-1176



----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


[The entire original message is not included]

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

While CVTs are improving, they are still much lower in efficiency than a
standard transmission.

ICE's tend to have a very narrow band where they are near maximum
efficiency. With an ICE it can make sense to loose a little efficiency in
the tranmission if you are going to gain efficiency in the motor by
keeping it at it's max efficiency point.

Electric motors tend to be efficient over a very wide band of RPMs. They
gain little if any advantage from the CVT, but end up loosing efficiency
over all.

> CVT (constantly variable) trannys are the latest and greatest thing in the
> auto world. Wouldn't it make sense to use this type of tranny?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Leone <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 5:07 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>>Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the
>>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They
>> have
>>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly
>>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit
>> these
>>with the right transmissions.
>
> Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a
> single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to
> improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out with
> the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with a
> single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they
> assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to
> design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that
> could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC
> motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque
> problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without
> lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission designer
> and didn't think there would be issues.
>
>>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology
>>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?
>
> Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later
> model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor,
> reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120
> mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission,
> they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work out.
> So now they are designing their own.
>
>
> Chris Leone
> University of Florida
> Student of Mechanical Engineering
> 352-278-1176
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
> [The entire original message is not included]
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> On 25 May 2008 at 11:51, keith vansickle wrote:
> 
> > both of these were factory conversions. they were not
> > designed as ev first they were gas powered.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > Sorry but it is apparently not so obvious.  Your
> > approach uses the tunnel and a substantial part of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Certainly an ICE and an electric motor have different torque curves but the 
real issue is top speed. Both motors (ICE and series DC) are rpm limited. 
You need a transmission to get to higher road speed as well as have high 
torque to climb hills. If you look at a DC motor's torque curve it starts 
out at max, goes out a while to a higher rpm, and then it starts to drop 
quickly. The transmission gives you great flexibility to operate your DC 
motor at a speed close to peak efficiency.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:33 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


>> Why are ICE's all behind transmissions?
> (Arn't transmissions behind ICE's?)
>
> I think it is because of the torque curve of the ice. It has zero torque
> and zero hp at zero rpm. It MUST develop rpm before it is connected to 
> load.
>
> Electric motors give us some options.
>
> This is why hybrids work so well, they allow a smaller gas engine by
> supplementing the torque needed in that lower rpm band.
>
> I think the difference between a 4 banger and a 5 speed and a v8 with a
> 3 speed more points to the way motor size effects number of gear ratios
> and speed range. Kinda application specific.
>
> Would you want a 6 speed if you had 730Hp? You would if you are going
> 220mph with an ICE.
>
> For normal <100mph driving by electric, I think a 2 speed is sufficient.
> It can be done with a mechanical transmission or the electric
> one(series/parallel)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Everybody is interested in seeing Tesla succeed. The question is, do they 
know enough about automotive test and validation to do it properly. I live 
in Detroit and Tesla decided they needed more automotive experience to 
design the roadster and the White/Blue Star future models. They set up a 
facility here and then laid off half of the people last Fall. I have spoken 
to several of them, I one thing seems clear. The Tesla management does not 
understand automotive technology. The fact that most of management came out 
of software is a real worry. Software people sell products everyday knowing 
it works most of the time and they can release patches to fix things that 
their customers complain about or sell you new software that fixes the old 
bugs and provide new features. Great in IT, but that does not work in 
automobiles. You buy a new car today and do not expect to have any problems 
for 10 years. Everybody remembers the Bill Gates/Microsoft jokes 10 years 
ago about if MS built cars. You remember? Your car would periodically stop 
and you would have to reboot...etc...
Today's car manufacturers build quality to the tune of 10 defects per 
million parts. Elon Musk about 2 years ago said if you build electronics 
you don't do it in Detroit, you do it in Silicon Valley. How little he 
knows. Today's cars are more complex electrically than any single computer 
that uses PayPal. And they are extremely reliable!
My biggest concern is their choice of battery technology. Li-ion with cobalt 
is considered universally the wrong technology for transportation products. 
They probably realize this now, but are they too stubborn to make a change? 
The other issue is life cycle testing. If a battery is supposed to last 10 
years, how do you get 10 years of testing at a pack level? You don't. It 
takes more time and everytime you make an improvement you start the testing 
all over.
But let's not speculate, time will tell if they can be successful.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Leone" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> >Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the
>>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They 
>>have
>>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly
>>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit 
>>these
>>with the right transmissions.
>
> Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a 
> single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to 
> improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out with 
> the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with a 
> single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they 
> assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to 
> design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that 
> could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC 
> motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque 
> problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without 
> lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission designer 
> and didn't think there would be issues.
>
>>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology
>>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?
>
> Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later 
> model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor, 
> reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120 
> mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission, 
> they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work out. 
> So now they are designing their own.
>
>
> Chris Leone
> University of Florida
> Student of Mechanical Engineering
> 352-278-1176
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Richard Marks <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
> Rich
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
>> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
>>
>> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:20 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>


> >> wrote:
> >>> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Richard Marks wrote:
> > You need a transmission to get to higher road speed as well as have
> > high torque to climb hills.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

On Tue, 27 May 2008 12:20:02 -0400, "Richard Marks" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >Today's car manufacturers build quality to the tune of 10 defects per
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> 6. Is this "enough"? Well, any torque in excess of what it takes to
> spin the tires is pointless; it is traction limited, not motor
> limited. A tire produces about 1 lbs thrust for every 1 lbs of
> weight on it. Say your EV weighs 3000 lbs, with 750 lbs per tire.
> So a 1-foot radius tire "breaks loose" over 750 ft.lbs; we have
> enough torque with this motor, controller, and differential to
> spin the tires and can climb any possible hill.

Unless it's a trike, won't it have TWO driven wheels? Granted once one
breaks free all of your torque is lost in spinning, but (assuming you are
going straight) the available torque will split almost evenly between the
two driven wheels.

This means your motor only produces about 2/3 the torque the wheels can
handle.

Not that that is an issue, it just makes it much less likely that you can
spin the wheels.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

This is a bit of a nitpick, but you need 1500 ft*lbs to spin the rear wheels (2 wheels with 750 lbs each of weight on them), so 965 ft*lbs won't quite do it. It'll still be a fast car and able to climb almost any hill you'd see on a U.S. public road. If you want max acceleration with this setup you'll need either a transmission, or more electrical power (maybe even 2 motors), or give up some top speed with a lower rear end gear ratio, or a lighter car (A123 batteries).

This is a fine point primarily of interest to the racers: Weight transfer to the rear wheels in a RWD car can significantly raise the weight on the rear wheels. For example, my gas car statically has 42% of its weight on the rear wheels, but it can accelerate at 0.7 g on street tires in 1st gear, due to weight transfer during acceleration. This can get even more extreme with race tires and a sticky track. So if you want the fastest car, you should assume all the car's weight is on the rear wheels for your calculations (indeed, really fast drag racers do a wheelie, truly putting 100% of the weight on the rear wheels). All out drag racers, with drag slicks and a sticky track, should assume even more weight, as they accelerate faster than 1 g.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:48:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

...
5. Calculate how much wheel torque this will produce, by multiplying
by the differential ratio: 225 ft.lbs x 4.29 = 965 ft.lbs

6. Is this "enough"? Well, any torque in excess of what it takes to
spin the tires is pointless; it is traction limited, not motor
limited. A tire produces about 1 lbs thrust for every 1 lbs of
weight on it. Say your EV weighs 3000 lbs, with 750 lbs per tire.
So a 1-foot radius tire "breaks loose" over 750 ft.lbs; we have
enough torque with this motor, controller, and differential to
spin the tires and can climb any possible hill.
...




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I would think it to be 750 ft*if if the differential is of the open type and
1,500 if it is a posi unit. Also depending on how the suspension is setup I
would think the effect of weight transfer might be negligible. Of course
these are opinions and I have based nothing on fact. 

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


This is a bit of a nitpick, but you need 1500 ft*lbs to spin the rear wheels
(2 wheels with 750 lbs each of weight on them), so 965 ft*lbs won't quite do
it. It'll still be a fast car and able to climb almost any hill you'd see on
a U.S. public road. If you want max acceleration with this setup you'll need
either a transmission, or more electrical power (maybe even 2 motors), or
give up some top speed with a lower rear end gear ratio, or a lighter car
(A123 batteries).

This is a fine point primarily of interest to the racers: Weight transfer to
the rear wheels in a RWD car can significantly raise the weight on the rear
wheels. For example, my gas car statically has 42% of its weight on the rear
wheels, but it can accelerate at 0.7 g on street tires in 1st gear, due to
weight transfer during acceleration. This can get even more extreme with
race tires and a sticky track. So if you want the fastest car, you should
assume all the car's weight is on the rear wheels for your calculations
(indeed, really fast drag racers do a wheelie, truly putting 100% of the
weight on the rear wheels). All out drag racers, with drag slicks and a
sticky track, should assume even more weight, as they accelerate faster than
1 g.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:48:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

...
5. Calculate how much wheel torque this will produce, by multiplying
by the differential ratio: 225 ft.lbs x 4.29 = 965 ft.lbs

6. Is this "enough"? Well, any torque in excess of what it takes to
spin the tires is pointless; it is traction limited, not motor
limited. A tire produces about 1 lbs thrust for every 1 lbs of
weight on it. Say your EV weighs 3000 lbs, with 750 lbs per tire.
So a 1-foot radius tire "breaks loose" over 750 ft.lbs; we have
enough torque with this motor, controller, and differential to
spin the tires and can climb any possible hill.
...




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> This is a bit of a nitpick, but you need 1500 ft*lbs to spin the rear 
> wheels (2 wheels with 750 lbs each of weight on them), so 965 ft*lbs won't 
> quite do it. It'll still be a fast car and able to climb almost any hill 
> you'd see on a U.S. public road. If you want max acceleration with this 
> setup you'll need either a transmission, or more electrical power (maybe 
> even 2 motors), or give up some top speed with a lower rear end gear 
> ratio, or a lighter car (A123 batteries).
>
> This is a fine point primarily of interest to the racers: Weight transfer 
> to the rear wheels in a RWD car can significantly raise the weight on the 
> rear wheels. For example, my gas car statically has 42% of its weight on 
> the rear wheels, but it can accelerate at 0.7 g on street tires in 1st 
> gear, due to weight transfer during acceleration. This can get even more 
> extreme with race tires and a sticky track. So if you want the fastest 
> car, you should assume all the car's weight is on the rear wheels for your 
> calculations (indeed, really fast drag racers do a wheelie, truly putting 
> 100% of the weight on the rear wheels). All out drag racers, with drag 
> slicks and a sticky track, should assume even more weight, as they 
> accelerate faster than 1 g.


This is true about the weight transfer, normally call thrust. When I order 
my axle set from www.markwilliams.com, they recommended a 4000 lb thrust 
axle and bearing set for a rear wheel weight of 2000 lbs. Each wheel are 
rated for a load rating of 3500 lbs and the tires are rated for 2600 lbs at 
65 psi.

At static load, there is only a 0.375 inch deflection of the tire face.

Roland



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > This is a bit of a nitpick, but you need 1500 ft*lbs to spin the rear
> > wheels (2 wheels with 750 lbs each of weight on them), so 965 ft*lbs
> > won't quite do it. It'll still be a fast car and able to climb almost
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Right you are about open vs. posi.

It turns out weight transfer is fundamental from the geometry. Even a go kart with no suspension, or even a cardboard box, will get weight transfer to the rear upon acceleration, as the cg is above the floor. Suspension tuning can enhance this effect further.

Note for my gas car, weight transfer was not negligible. It went from 42%, to 70%. That's 1.7 times the weight on the rear wheels, and this was a daily driver car with a bone stock suspension on good street tires, and a stock limited slip differential.

If want to accelerate really fast, plan to push all the car's weight with the rear wheels (or all wheel drive) at about 1 g for the street, and as high as about 3 g for an all out drag racer at the strip. 1 g is Ferrari levels of acceleration.

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:31:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

I would think it to be 750 ft*if if the differential is of the open type and
1,500 if it is a posi unit. Also depending on how the suspension is setup I
would think the effect of weight transfer might be negligible. Of course
these are opinions and I have based nothing on fact. 

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


This is a bit of a nitpick, but you need 1500 ft*lbs to spin the rear wheels
(2 wheels with 750 lbs each of weight on them), so 965 ft*lbs won't quite do
it. It'll still be a fast car and able to climb almost any hill you'd see on
a U.S. public road. If you want max acceleration with this setup you'll need
either a transmission, or more electrical power (maybe even 2 motors), or
give up some top speed with a lower rear end gear ratio, or a lighter car
(A123 batteries).

This is a fine point primarily of interest to the racers: Weight transfer to
the rear wheels in a RWD car can significantly raise the weight on the rear
wheels. For example, my gas car statically has 42% of its weight on the rear
wheels, but it can accelerate at 0.7 g on street tires in 1st gear, due to
weight transfer during acceleration. This can get even more extreme with
race tires and a sticky track. So if you want the fastest car, you should
assume all the car's weight is on the rear wheels for your calculations
(indeed, really fast drag racers do a wheelie, truly putting 100% of the
weight on the rear wheels). All out drag racers, with drag slicks and a
sticky track, should assume even more weight, as they accelerate faster than
1 g.

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:48:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion

...
5. Calculate how much wheel torque this will produce, by multiplying
by the differential ratio: 225 ft.lbs x 4.29 = 965 ft.lbs

6. Is this "enough"? Well, any torque in excess of what it takes to
spin the tires is pointless; it is traction limited, not motor
limited. A tire produces about 1 lbs thrust for every 1 lbs of
weight on it. Say your EV weighs 3000 lbs, with 750 lbs per tire.
So a 1-foot radius tire "breaks loose" over 750 ft.lbs; we have
enough torque with this motor, controller, and differential to
spin the tires and can climb any possible hill.
...




_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev





_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

If Li-ion with cobalt is considered universally the wrong technology for tr=
ansportation products, what is the correct choice?
[email protected]
----------------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:20:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
> =

> Everybody is interested in seeing Tesla succeed. The question is, do the=
y =

> know enough about automotive test and validation to do it properly. I l=
ive =

> in Detroit and Tesla decided they needed more automotive experience to =

> design the roadster and the White/Blue Star future models. They set up a =

> facility here and then laid off half of the people last Fall. I have spo=
ken =

> to several of them, I one thing seems clear. The Tesla management does n=
ot =

> understand automotive technology. The fact that most of management came =
out =

> of software is a real worry. Software people sell products everyday know=
ing =

> it works most of the time and they can release patches to fix things that =

> their customers complain about or sell you new software that fixes the ol=
d =

> bugs and provide new features. Great in IT, but that does not work in =

> automobiles. You buy a new car today and do not expect to have any probl=
ems =

> for 10 years. Everybody remembers the Bill Gates/Microsoft jokes 10 year=
s =

> ago about if MS built cars. You remember? Your car would periodically s=
top =

> and you would have to reboot...etc...
> Today's car manufacturers build quality to the tune of 10 defects per =

> million parts. Elon Musk about 2 years ago said if you build electronics =

> you don't do it in Detroit, you do it in Silicon Valley. How little he =

> knows. Today's cars are more complex electrically than any single comput=
er =

> that uses PayPal. And they are extremely reliable!
> My biggest concern is their choice of battery technology. Li-ion with cob=
alt =

> is considered universally the wrong technology for transportation product=
s. =

> They probably realize this now, but are they too stubborn to make a chang=
e? =

> The other issue is life cycle testing. If a battery is supposed to last =
10 =

> years, how do you get 10 years of testing at a pack level? You don't. I=
t =

> takes more time and everytime you make an improvement you start the testi=
ng =

> all over.
> But let's not speculate, time will tell if they can be successful.
> Richard
> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Chris Leone" =

> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
> =

> =

>>>Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the
>>>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They =

>>>have
>>>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly
>>>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit =

>>>these
>>>with the right transmissions.
>>
>> Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a =

>> single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to =

>> improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out wit=
h =

>> the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with =
a =

>> single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they =

>> assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to =

>> design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that =

>> could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC =

>> motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque =

>> problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without =

>> lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission design=
er =

>> and didn't think there would be issues.
>>
>>>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology
>>>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?
>>
>> Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later =

>> model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor, =

>> reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120 =

>> mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission=
, =

>> they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work ou=
t. =

>> So now they are designing their own.
>>
>>
>> Chris Leone
>> University of Florida
>> Student of Mechanical Engineering
>> 352-278-1176
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Richard Marks =

>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List =

>> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>>
>>
>> Rich
>> ----- Original Message ----- =

>> From: "storm connors" =

>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

>> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>>
>>
>>> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:20 PM, EVDL Administrator =



> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Thanks for that post Lee, It's a keeper. Nitpicking notwithstanding this is 
the type of discussion I tend to learn most from. This has been a very 
interesting thread for me, since I am really planning to emulate Weylands' 
white zombie at least on some issues. I was plannning a transmissionless 
drivetrain in a Datsun 1200 coupe (don't have yet, but was my first car) and 
am still on the fence on many items like AC vs. DC, lead acid vs. lithium.

It seems to me we have two extreems, knida. On the one hand you keep the 
stock manual trans for a simple conversion (not saying it is that hard 
without). I see that some mention not using all the gears in the trans. 
That to me (opinion) means that I am hauling around extra weight that I am 
not using. On the other hand a single ratio (rear axle) may not do the job 
well, especially without a motor or motor combo that can take the advantage 
of a series/paralell shift ala Zilla. I don't see much mention of different 
transmissions like a Lenco planetary box, they can even be stacked for more 
gears. I saw mentioned somewhere that the Chrysler vans had a gear vendors 
transmission (also a planetary). Looking at these options on line has me 
thinking. I know there is a cost here, and I don't know if the ratios are 
really optimal. It seems we need a two or three speed trans. I don't know 
of any 2 speed manuals (Tesla I know, but it doesn't perform/last), but 
there are some older 3 speeds. The Gm powerglide automatic is a two speed, 
and I think I would like to tinker there. I'm waiting to hear what Roland's 
testing on his TH400 comes up with.

One other thing. The ratio spit needs to be wider than most manual 
transmissions, since the torque curve is so flat compared to an ICE. As I 
undstand from reading, the Tesla transaxle had a big gear split, what 
happens to the sudden speedchange in the motor? Something has to give. The 
tires break loose or the motor has to slow down to sync with the gears, like 
a syncro in a manual trans? Or does the controller handle that issue?

Kelly
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion




> > Richard Marks wrote:
> >> You need a transmission to get to higher road speed as well as have
> >> high torque to climb hills.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Kelly' Hales wrote:
> 
> > It seems to me we have two extreems, knida. On the one hand
> > you keep the stock manual trans for a simple conversion (not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

The weight of the gears is negligible. The typical transmission weighs
just a bit more than one battery.

However, if you are up to it, you can remove the unneeded gears and
replace them with spacers (if needed). This will reduce the tranmission
losses by a little bit (maybe 1% more efficient).

Electric motors don't have as much inertial as ICEs, unless you keep the
flywheel.
Many people go clutchless (and no flywheel) and the motor slows down quick
enough to shift without to much problems.
As I understand it, the synchros match speed in about a second or so.

> It seems to me we have two extreems, knida. On the one hand you keep the
> stock manual trans for a simple conversion (not saying it is that hard
> without). I see that some mention not using all the gears in the trans.
> That to me (opinion) means that I am hauling around extra weight that I am
> not using.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Or, a little higher numerical ratio for the
> > differential (because my maximum 6000 RPM estimate for the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

David, I was gonna say a similar thing about weight transfer. we can
also look at it from the G force side of things

But we must graph it because as soon as we achieve motion the
acceleration rate drops.
I think if we were to plot drag racing EV's AC against DC against ICE
we will see a patern
AC accelrates slower but accross a wider speed range, a multispeed
tranny not as important
DC accelrates best off the line droping as speed increases a
multispeed tranny could be of help here
ICE accelerates in relation to engine rpm and peaks 30 ft out of the
gate and has a secondary peak again in next gear. a multispeed tranny is
imperative.

.25G acceleration is minimally acceptable
Most passenger cars can generate launch of .5 and braking of .7
Most trucks and SUV's are all over the map. they have both way worse
and way more than passenger cars.
Most sports cars can generate launch of .7-.9 and braking of .9G and
also can have lateral G's of close to 1.0G

750/3000 = .25G, this is anemic. Most drivers will feel this and complain.
1500/300 = .5G This is spirited, People will say wow at first. You can
sell this easy.

I played with this

This graph is generated by php code that pits all the specs I could find
for the white zombie and gone postal in a virtual drag race.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.php

Here is the source code of that php (you can run php locally). You can
see the equations in it, they came from a book on race design.

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.txt

This program handles weight transfer to determine max adhesion and
values for spring rates, throttle response, shift times had to all be
guessed. The stages are series parallel or gear shifts and it allows for
multiple axles. This was done long before the white zombie broke the
100mph 12.9 sec and you can see it is way off. To many variables guessed
I think.




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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

David, I was gonna say a similar thing about weight transfer. we can
also look at it from the G force side of things

But we must graph it because as soon as we achieve motion the
acceleration rate drops.
I think if we were to plot drag racing EV's AC against DC against ICE
we will see a patern
AC accelrates slower but accross a wider speed range, a multispeed
tranny not as important
DC accelrates best off the line droping as speed increases a
multispeed tranny could be of help here
ICE accelerates in relation to engine rpm and peaks 30 ft out of the
gate and has a secondary peak again in next gear. a multispeed tranny is
imperative.

.25G acceleration is minimally acceptable
Most passenger cars can generate launch of .5 and braking of .7
Most trucks and SUV's are all over the map. they have both way worse
and way more than passenger cars.
Most sports cars can generate launch of .7-.9 and braking of .9G and
also can have lateral G's of close to 1.0G

750/3000 = .25G, this is anemic. Most drivers will feel this and complain.
1500/300 = .5G This is spirited, People will say wow at first. You can
sell this easy.

I played with this

This graph is generated by php code that pits all the specs I could find
for the white zombie and gone postal in a virtual drag race.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.php

Here is the source code of that php (you can run php locally). You can
see the equations in it, they came from a book on race design.

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.txt

This program handles weight transfer to determine max adhesion and
values for spring rates, throttle response, shift times had to all be
guessed. The stages are series parallel or gear shifts and it allows for
multiple axles. This was done long before the white zombie broke the
100mph 12.9 sec and you can see it is way off. To many variables guessed
I think.





_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello Kelly,

Sometime ago, I contacted the Lenco Company, for a four stack unit from 
them. These units are great for drag racing, where you can have four inline 
shift rods for there four planetary gear sets. Can use a super fast auto 
electric shifter for these devices.

In talking to these people, this is not recommended for street use. To lock 
on these units, you must apply some rpm to lock them on. Can be use as a 
over or under drive in addition to a transmission for street use.

Therefore I went with a tci.com TH-400 that is converted to manual shift 
like a manual transmission, that uses no torque converter, no flex plate, no 
governor and no automatic value body. The vacuum modulator is control by a 
accelerator vacuum control like is use on diesel vehicles, which controls 
the transmission oil pressure to a high pressure at acceleration and lower 
pressure at cruse.

The drag race people use a control switch that can shut off the vacuum and 
turn on a transmission oil pump to these transmission which gives it full 
blow out your gasket pressure, then you must apply some vacuum to the 
transmission while the pump is off, or the transmission oil pressure will be 
too high and you will blow the transmission pump seals.

It will be about 2 or 3 more months before I can test this out. Still have 
parts coming in.

Roland



I will see what happens when I get this unit install in the EV with a GE 
11.5 motor. Test bench test, show that this transmission will lock on at 75 
PSI oil pressure at 100 rpm which is only 0.5 mph start out speed. It takes 
about 275 rpm or about 1.5 mph for the transmission oil to come up to 175 
PSI maximum operating pressure.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kelly' Hales" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> Thanks for that post Lee, It's a keeper. Nitpicking notwithstanding this 
> is
> the type of discussion I tend to learn most from. This has been a very
> interesting thread for me, since I am really planning to emulate Weylands'
> white zombie at least on some issues. I was plannning a transmissionless
> drivetrain in a Datsun 1200 coupe (don't have yet, but was my first car) 
> and
> am still on the fence on many items like AC vs. DC, lead acid vs. lithium.
>
> It seems to me we have two extreems, knida. On the one hand you keep the
> stock manual trans for a simple conversion (not saying it is that hard
> without). I see that some mention not using all the gears in the trans.
> That to me (opinion) means that I am hauling around extra weight that I am
> not using. On the other hand a single ratio (rear axle) may not do the 
> job
> well, especially without a motor or motor combo that can take the 
> advantage
> of a series/paralell shift ala Zilla. I don't see much mention of 
> different
> transmissions like a Lenco planetary box, they can even be stacked for 
> more
> gears. I saw mentioned somewhere that the Chrysler vans had a gear 
> vendors
> transmission (also a planetary). Looking at these options on line has me
> thinking. I know there is a cost here, and I don't know if the ratios are
> really optimal. It seems we need a two or three speed trans. I don't 
> know
> of any 2 speed manuals (Tesla I know, but it doesn't perform/last), but
> there are some older 3 speeds. The Gm powerglide automatic is a two 
> speed,
> and I think I would like to tinker there. I'm waiting to hear what 
> Roland's
> testing on his TH400 comes up with.
>
> One other thing. The ratio spit needs to be wider than most manual
> transmissions, since the torque curve is so flat compared to an ICE. As I
> undstand from reading, the Tesla transaxle had a big gear split, what
> happens to the sudden speedchange in the motor? Something has to give. 
> The
> tires break loose or the motor has to slow down to sync with the gears, 
> like
> a syncro in a manual trans? Or does the controller handle that issue?
>
> Kelly
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>


> > > Richard Marks wrote:
> > >> You need a transmission to get to higher road speed as well as have
> > >> high torque to climb hills.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I think if we were to plot drag racing EVs AC against DC against ICE
> > we will see a pattern... AC accelerates slower but across a wider speed
> > range. A multispeed tranny is not as important.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

I think your calculations leave a little to be desired. See notes below 
highlighted with **
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion




> > Richard Marks wrote:
> >> You need a transmission to get to higher road speed as well as have
> >> high torque to climb hills.
> > **did you read Otmar's comments on his website about using a transmission,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Neon,
The number I saw that Tesla has raised was $145M as reported in LA 
Times! I have a company in Detroit that is ready to start producing an 
electric Low Speed Vehicle and I can't even raise a dime! visit me at 
www.EcoVElectric.com
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neon John" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> On Tue, 27 May 2008 12:20:02 -0400, "Richard Marks" 
> <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Today's car manufacturers build quality to the tune of 10 defects per
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> Richard Marks wrote:
> > I think your calculations leave a little to be desired. See notes below
> > highlighted with **
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

The world is following iron phosphate (A123) or manganese spinel (EnerDel). =

Some of the manganese batteries are showing energy storage much better than =

the cobalts and are very robust from an abuse standpoint.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Robert Gienger" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion



If Li-ion with cobalt is considered universally the wrong technology for =

transportation products, what is the correct choice?
[email protected]
----------------------------------------
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:20:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
> Everybody is interested in seeing Tesla succeed. The question is, do they
> know enough about automotive test and validation to do it properly. I =

> live
> in Detroit and Tesla decided they needed more automotive experience to
> design the roadster and the White/Blue Star future models. They set up a
> facility here and then laid off half of the people last Fall. I have =

> spoken
> to several of them, I one thing seems clear. The Tesla management does =

> not
> understand automotive technology. The fact that most of management came =

> out
> of software is a real worry. Software people sell products everyday =

> knowing
> it works most of the time and they can release patches to fix things that
> their customers complain about or sell you new software that fixes the old
> bugs and provide new features. Great in IT, but that does not work in
> automobiles. You buy a new car today and do not expect to have any =

> problems
> for 10 years. Everybody remembers the Bill Gates/Microsoft jokes 10 years
> ago about if MS built cars. You remember? Your car would periodically =

> stop
> and you would have to reboot...etc...
> Today's car manufacturers build quality to the tune of 10 defects per
> million parts. Elon Musk about 2 years ago said if you build electronics
> you don't do it in Detroit, you do it in Silicon Valley. How little he
> knows. Today's cars are more complex electrically than any single =

> computer
> that uses PayPal. And they are extremely reliable!
> My biggest concern is their choice of battery technology. Li-ion with =

> cobalt
> is considered universally the wrong technology for transportation =

> products.
> They probably realize this now, but are they too stubborn to make a =

> change?
> The other issue is life cycle testing. If a battery is supposed to last =

> 10
> years, how do you get 10 years of testing at a pack level? You don't. It
> takes more time and everytime you make an improvement you start the =

> testing
> all over.
> But let's not speculate, time will tell if they can be successful.
> Richard
> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Chris Leone"
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
>>>Tesla's mainstream is a two speed transmission. Low gear is for the
>>>breathtaking acceleration and high gear is to get you to 150 mph. They
>>>have
>>>had problems getting this 2-spd transmission to work and are supposedly
>>>going to build some early models with a single speed and later re-fit
>>>these
>>>with the right transmissions.
>>
>> Actually, the original Tesla founder, Martin Eberhard, wanted to do a
>> single gear ratio, but Elon Musk, the primary VC wanted a two speed to
>> improve the accleration. The early model cars are actually sent out with
>> the original two speed, locked in 2nd gear and will be retrofitted with a
>> single speed later. The problem they were having wasn't in house, they
>> assumed, much like the rest of us, that transmissions aren't hard to
>> design. The problem came when they were looking for a transmission that
>> could handle the low speed torque and the 13,500 rpm redline of their AC
>> motor. They ran into lubrication issues at these rpms, not torque
>> problems. So the transmissions were failing due to running without
>> lubrication. To clarify, Tesla was using an outside transmission =

>> designer
>> and didn't think there would be issues.
>>
>>>If Tesla can't do 100 year old technology
>>>right, what makes them think they can do high tech EV technology right?
>>
>> Tesla actually did the EV part very well, their controller for the later
>> model single speed drive train is producing 850 amps at the motor,
>> reaching the goal of sub 4 second 0-60 time, and still pushing over 120
>> mph with a 200+ mile range. Again, they did not design the transmission,
>> they had left that too the "automotive experts", but that didn't work =

>> out.
>> So now they are designing their own.
>>
>>
>> Chris Leone
>> University of Florida
>> Student of Mechanical Engineering
>> 352-278-1176
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Richard Marks
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:35:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>>
>>
>> Rich
>> ----- Original Message ----- =

>> From: "storm connors"
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 10:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>>
>>
>>> Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 3:20 PM, EVDL Administrator


> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 24 May 2008 at 12:26, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> But essentially *all* EVs designed from scratch have no transmission.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*



> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> I think if we were to plot drag racing EVs AC against DC against ICE
> >> we will see a pattern... AC accelerates slower but across a wider speed
> >> range. A multispeed tranny is not as important.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Someone said something about open vs posi rear ends that I think was
missleading.

Open rear ends allow transfering the most power to the ground on
straight-aways and in corners. With the proviso that the wheels stay in
contact with the road. Some road racers take this approach: go open and
soften the suspension to allow the wheel to remain in contact at all
times. This appears to work better on stock vehicles where the roll
center is high.

One of those "in theory theory is easier than practice, in practice...."
situations, but I can tell you that going from open to 140Lb preloaded
limited slip required a lot of changes to get back lost turn in in a n
autocross, Other locking diffys that don't have that drag are far better.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Roland,
Sounds like you have already done some of the looking I was hoping to get at 
soon. I'm attending college now and have class 4 nights a week and work 
full time too. Also have a wife and 3 kids to spend time with. It is hard 
to keep up with the list traffic. I'm visually filtering with the delete 
key. I don't know how some of you folks can psot so much. but please keep 
it up. I'm learning slowly!

So the Lenco needs to bu under power to hold it in gear? I know you could 
shift without letting off the throttle, but didn't know you basically had 
to. I had read somewhere that they can't be shifted down untill stopped as 
well. Looks like not a good candidate.

The powerglide is what I will explore myself. My planned conversion will be 
much smaller than your el camino, so I think I will be able to get by with 
two gears. A 2 to 1 gear would be my goal. Anyway, I would like to look 
into a converterless setup like has been discussed here. In your comments 
you mention the trans lockng on at 75 psi that is at 100 rpm. So then the 
motor spins up and passes the 75 psi mark before the car starts to move? 
What do you think this delay would equate to in seconds or fractions 
thereof?

I have a spare auto trans in the shed for my cherokee. It is a toyota built 
unit and known for it's dependability. This one is all electronic. 
Solenoids to shift, and uses the TPS on the ICE to know the shift points 
(along with the programming of course). At some point I would like to 
tinker with that. I have even thought of converting my DD cherokee. There 
are two in the evalbum, not auto's of course.

Still just hashing out in the head, but if my homework load is too much this 
summer, I will have to unsubscribe for a while.

Thanks, your posts are always heopful
Kelly
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> Hello Kelly,
>
> Sometime ago, I contacted the Lenco Company, for a four stack unit from 
> them. These units are great for drag racing, where you can have four 
> inline shift rods for there four planetary gear sets. Can use a super fast 
> auto electric shifter for these devices.
>
> In talking to these people, this is not recommended for street use. To 
> lock on these units, you must apply some rpm to lock them on. Can be use 
> as a over or under drive in addition to a transmission for street use.
>
> Therefore I went with a tci.com TH-400 that is converted to manual shift 
> like a manual transmission, that uses no torque converter, no flex plate, 
> no governor and no automatic value body. The vacuum modulator is control 
> by a accelerator vacuum control like is use on diesel vehicles, which 
> controls the transmission oil pressure to a high pressure at acceleration 
> and lower pressure at cruse.
>
> The drag race people use a control switch that can shut off the vacuum and 
> turn on a transmission oil pump to these transmission which gives it full 
> blow out your gasket pressure, then you must apply some vacuum to the 
> transmission while the pump is off, or the transmission oil pressure will 
> be too high and you will blow the transmission pump seals.
>
> It will be about 2 or 3 more months before I can test this out. Still have 
> parts coming in.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> I will see what happens when I get this unit install in the EV with a GE 
> 11.5 motor. Test bench test, show that this transmission will lock on at 
> 75 PSI oil pressure at 100 rpm which is only 0.5 mph start out speed. It 
> takes about 275 rpm or about 1.5 mph for the transmission oil to come up 
> to 175 PSI maximum operating pressure.
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Yes, it seems there is a common misconception that open diffs only power
one wheel.
It is true that, with an open diff, if one wheel looses traction and
begins to slip, all you power goes to that wheel.
However, unless one wheel is slipping, the torque splits between the
wheels in nearly equal amounts.

> Someone said something about open vs posi rear ends that I think was
> missleading.
>
> Open rear ends allow transfering the most power to the ground on
> straight-aways and in corners. With the proviso that the wheels stay in
> contact with the road. Some road racers take this approach: go open and
> soften the suspension to allow the wheel to remain in contact at all
> times. This appears to work better on stock vehicles where the roll
> center is high.
>
> One of those "in theory theory is easier than practice, in practice...."
> situations, but I can tell you that going from open to 140Lb preloaded
> limited slip required a lot of changes to get back lost turn in in a n
> autocross, Other locking diffys that don't have that drag are far better.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

> Yes, it seems there is a common misconception that open diffs only power
> one wheel.

Really, There are people that think that the power goes to only one wheel?

> It is true that, with an open diff, if one wheel looses traction and
> begins to slip, all you power goes to that wheel.

Exactly what I meant when I made the argument about open differential. In
rear wheel drive vehicles using an open drive shaft the torque applied to
the driveshaft tends to lift one side of the axle, the side that is first to
spin.

> However, unless one wheel is slipping, the torque splits between the
> wheels in nearly equal amounts.


Mark Grasser	
Eliot, ME

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Hello Kelly,

This test of the TH-400 is a bench test. I cannot even measure the delay. =

Turning on the motor, with a 100 amp load, the transmission psi was up to 7=
5 =

psi at about 100 rpm in a instant.

Moving out of a parking space in reverse or in 1st gear, should be about th=
e =

right starting speed that one persons needs.

When I get this into the EV, then I can find out if there is any delay. It =

may not be anymore delay then I have now. Running a 7000 lb EV with about =

20:1 gear ratio, it takes a little more accelerator to get moving then if I =

run the motor in a neutral gear.

According to the Caf=E9 Electric web site, it takes about 150 ohms on a =

potentiometer to start running the motor. I mark this position on the =

enclosure, but it takes more than that when I idle the manual transmission =

which is rotating a very large heavy flywheel and pressure plate. It takes =

more accelerator movement when I start out in gear.

With the TH-400 with out a flex plate and torque converter, this accelerato=
r =

movement should be less. I will see what happens.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Kelly' Hales" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion


> Roland,
> Sounds like you have already done some of the looking I was hoping to get =

> at
> soon. I'm attending college now and have class 4 nights a week and work
> full time too. Also have a wife and 3 kids to spend time with. It is =

> hard
> to keep up with the list traffic. I'm visually filtering with the delete
> key. I don't know how some of you folks can psot so much. but please keep
> it up. I'm learning slowly!
>
> So the Lenco needs to bu under power to hold it in gear? I know you could
> shift without letting off the throttle, but didn't know you basically had
> to. I had read somewhere that they can't be shifted down untill stopped =

> as
> well. Looks like not a good candidate.
>
> The powerglide is what I will explore myself. My planned conversion will =

> be
> much smaller than your el camino, so I think I will be able to get by with
> two gears. A 2 to 1 gear would be my goal. Anyway, I would like to look
> into a converterless setup like has been discussed here. In your comments
> you mention the trans lockng on at 75 psi that is at 100 rpm. So then the
> motor spins up and passes the 75 psi mark before the car starts to move?
> What do you think this delay would equate to in seconds or fractions
> thereof?
>
> I have a spare auto trans in the shed for my cherokee. It is a toyota =

> built
> unit and known for it's dependability. This one is all electronic.
> Solenoids to shift, and uses the TPS on the ICE to know the shift points
> (along with the programming of course). At some point I would like to
> tinker with that. I have even thought of converting my DD cherokee. =

> There
> are two in the evalbum, not auto's of course.
>
> Still just hashing out in the head, but if my homework load is too much =

> this
> summer, I will have to unsubscribe for a while.
>
> Thanks, your posts are always heopful
> Kelly
> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion
>
>
> > Hello Kelly,
> >
> > Sometime ago, I contacted the Lenco Company, for a four stack unit from
> > them. These units are great for drag racing, where you can have four
> > inline shift rods for there four planetary gear sets. Can use a super =

> > fast
> > auto electric shifter for these devices.
> >
> > In talking to these people, this is not recommended for street use. To
> > lock on these units, you must apply some rpm to lock them on. Can be use
> > as a over or under drive in addition to a transmission for street use.
> >
> > Therefore I went with a tci.com TH-400 that is converted to manual shift
> > like a manual transmission, that uses no torque converter, no flex =

> > plate,
> > no governor and no automatic value body. The vacuum modulator is control
> > by a accelerator vacuum control like is use on diesel vehicles, which
> > controls the transmission oil pressure to a high pressure at =

> > acceleration
> > and lower pressure at cruse.
> >
> > The drag race people use a control switch that can shut off the vacuum =

> > and
> > turn on a transmission oil pump to these transmission which gives it =

> > full
> > blow out your gasket pressure, then you must apply some vacuum to the
> > transmission while the pump is off, or the transmission oil pressure =

> > will
> > be too high and you will blow the transmission pump seals.
> >
> > It will be about 2 or 3 more months before I can test this out. Still =

> > have
> > parts coming in.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > I will see what happens when I get this unit install in the EV with a GE
> > 11.5 motor. Test bench test, show that this transmission will lock on =

> > at
> > 75 PSI oil pressure at 100 rpm which is only 0.5 mph start out speed. =

> > It
> > takes about 275 rpm or about 1.5 mph for the transmission oil to come up
> > to 175 PSI maximum operating pressure.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Electric motor with no tranny for conversion*

Does anyone know which transmission Tesla decided to use?
I thought they would have used a Lenco, liberty or others readily available
for high rpm speedway engines.




> storm connors wrote:
> >
> > Tesla had a 2 speed, didn't it?
> >
> ...


----------

