# Planning Custom build Kit car EV



## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

*Jordy's Project EV Citroen Saxo.*


Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication HIGH
The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge) ideally 100
What level of performance you are hoping to get Would Love Motorway speeds
How much money you are willing to put into your project not decided more research needed into suitible parts required to compose a budget
What parts you've already considered, if any.
Golf Buggy 
Fork lifts
Compressor Motors 

Ok so thats the basics, over the last month or so i have been designing and calculating various things and a friend of mine is well into Aeronautical engineering and we came up with a design (3-wheeled) RWD and then we looked on the net and saw this, and was like thats exactly what we want ours to look like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aptera-2e-render-1.jpg 

Atm i am totally confused as to deciding what power output i need from calculating drag coeficients and efficiencies of the drivetrain and motor etc. 

and i have found that:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php?Weight=300&WeightUnits=kg&CRR=.008&Cd=.15&FrontalArea=0.25&FrontalAreaUnits=m^2&FuelWh=33557&IceEfficiency=100&DrivetrainEfficiency=100&ParasiticOverhead=0&rho=1.22&FromToStep=5-120-5


So my aim would be to reach lane 1 speeds (56mph upwards) but after reading many threads and searching for availibility of parts i have found that AC motors are readily availible in the UK but very limited on DC motors (only found in golf carts etc).

So basically what i am asking is what setup would be best for those speeds on the smallest budget possible taking into account my location in the world. 

Many thanks


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Bump, plse help ME!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

I assume a DC setup would be cheaper. and what parts would i need for that setup and could someone enlighten me to what a regenertave braking system consists off. 

WILL I HAVE TO IMPORT THE PARTS????


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know what's available in the UK but I assume you should have a large number of DC forklifts to choose from. You say AC motors are common but are you talking about industrial stationary motors or traction motors? They aren't the same.
Series DC motors won't do regen very well.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I don't know what's available in the UK but I assume you should have a large number of DC forklifts to choose from. You say AC motors are common but are you talking about industrial stationary motors or traction motors? They aren't the same.
> Series DC motors won't do regen very well.


i apolygise, but you are talking to a brick wall here lol, total newbie. 

found this site the first one i've found for the uk. http://www.everything-ev.com/ 

I am now thinking more on the lines of a Reliant Kitten (Google it) i had 15 of these once so i have lots of parts. and it only weighs 500kg odd. 

So off of that site what power am i looking at?? 

Many Many thanks


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

OMG,  this place http://www.everything-ev.com/ is only 15 miles from me!!!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not familiar with the AC motors they are offering, they don't give a lot of specs, such as weight and motor RPMs, but they do mention "low speed vehicles", which concerns me. Here's another UK EV site I had in my bookmarks, not much on the page but they deal with Netgain Warp motors
http://www.go-ev.co.uk/electric.html 
Those are series brushed DC motors with a good reputaion. I'll have to think about what kind of power you'll need and get back to you. For the kind of range you are talking about you'll certainly have to go with lithium batteries, probably at least $8000.00 worth as a quick estimate.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Definate DC route then and 5k is quite alot. will have to alter my design brief i think.

How about:

http://www.everything-ev.com/12v48v...r-p-292:50497bc5a2517210bf0d3596da28ff11.html
http://www.everything-ev.com/24v48v...r-p-429:e185ada08898b8dcbac5b64376939085.html
http://www.everything-ev.com/odysse...y-p-374:e579ae4d94882117267388f4e12872c0.html

Problem is that that will last only 18 mins at 7kw.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah you need to nail down your range and performance criteria before you do much else. Generally I'd say if you need/want much more than 30 miles of range you're going to need to go with lithium. If your vehicle is around 500kg I'd say that Perm motor is too small to last long.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah you need to nail down your range and performance criteria before you do much else. Generally I'd say if you need/want much more than 30 miles of range you're going to need to go with lithium. If your vehicle is around 500kg I'd say that Perm motor is too small to last long.


300kg 
30miles>
60mph 

will sacrifice mph for range. 

Was thinking of mating the motor to a Motorbike gearbox??


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

using Uve's ive mananged to get 300 miles range at 90 MPH  thats using the aerodynamic properties of the aparta which i plan to do. an the weight is about 550kg using 70Ah batteries and a 20hp motor. 
Is this calculator acurate or is the user at fault.

EDIT: woops forgot its a yanx site.  but still i am getting 50miles at 90mph


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ok I thought you were looking at using the Kitten which did not have great aerodynamics. If you really are going to end up with Aptera type aero's then you can probably get those results. You might even be able to go with lithium since they are much lighter, about 1/3 the weight of lead, and they have more usable capacity. So in a 100ah lithium you get almost 100ah but with lead you'll get only maybe 60-70ah. Instead of a 60lb 70ah lead battery you could use a 25lb 60ah lithium and get more range for lighter weight.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

yeah, sorry for the confusion, i was planning originally to make a aluminium spaceframe with fibreglass outers in the shape of the aperta as that is what my aero mate said was best. but then i thought it was too complex so went onto the kitten and now back onto the original plan as the kitten is a brick!. 

thanks .


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok, i think i have decided on some parts as follows

Motor: CLICKY

Controller: CLICKY

But i haven't decided on batteries yet. 

I feel that i should go down the route of Litium, but atm i cannot work out how many amp-hours i need at say 60mph (27m/s) and 120V and 1hr

Please could someone enlighten me on the equations, or estimate what amp hours i would need,


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> using Uve's ive mananged to get 300 miles range at 90 MPH  thats using the aerodynamic properties of the aparta which i plan to do. an the weight is about 550kg using 70Ah batteries and a 20hp motor.
> Is this calculator acurate or is the user at fault.
> 
> EDIT: woops forgot its a yanx site.  but still i am getting 50miles at 90mph


You will need about 16kwhr of lifepo and a regen system to go that far with a 0.15 Cd like the aptera has.

though 300miles at 90mph still seems questionable even then.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Technologic said:


> You will need about 16kwhr of lifepo and a regen system to go that far with a 0.15 Cd like the aptera has.
> 
> though 300miles at 90mph still seems questionable even then.


Nah it was 50 miles at 90mph, i put a value in in kg not lbs.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That motor seems pretty expensive for it's size, though that may be what prices are in England. You might want to look around the forums at endlessphere.com as there seem to be a lot of your countrymen who may know some better deals.
The way to figure your pack size is to try and figure out as close as possible how many watt hours per mile, wh/mi, your vehicle will use. A typical car conversion uses 250-350 wh/mi, something like the Aptera might use 100 wh/mi. So to go 50 miles you need 5000 wh, or 5 kwh. Divide that by 120 volts if that's what you're using and you get about 42 amp hours, so if you figure a 50 ah pack you should be good to go. That's 38 lithium cells at 3.2 volts and 50 ahs each and should come in somewhere around $2k. With lead you'd have to use larger ah cells since you can't discharge as low and to compensate for the extra weight.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That motor seems pretty expensive for it's size, though that may be what prices are in England. You might want to look around the forums at endlessphere.com as there seem to be a lot of your countrymen who may know some better deals.
> The way to figure your pack size is to try and figure out as close as possible how many watt hours per mile, wh/mi, your vehicle will use. A typical car conversion uses 250-350 wh/mi, something like the Aptera might use 100 wh/mi. So to go 50 miles you need 5000 wh, or 5 kwh. Divide that by 120 volts if that's what you're using and you get about 42 amp hours, so if you figure a 50 ah pack you should be good to go. That's 38 lithium cells at 3.2 volts and 50 ahs each and should come in somewhere around $2k. With lead you'd have to use larger ah cells since you can't discharge as low and to compensate for the extra weight.


Ok, cheers that shows that the everythingev is really expensive. will look on that site.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Recently i have been thinking that these ambitions are quite high for this first project so, i am thinking if i should scale it down to 48V then once it is working and driving and passed SVA i can always upgrade later. 

As i know i can get the Aluminium spaceframe and fibreglass outer under 100 kg , this means that i need much less power and i can get a much better range. 

I am thinking of taking a Yamaha R6 (friend collects the ones he crashes ) and use the rear swing arm complete with wheel, discs, suspension etc and mate that to the aluminium spaceframe. then because it is so light i can fabricate my own wishbones and hubs to the design of our similar weight race car, and using a pre-fab Inboard suspension system. 

So, back onto the technical stuff, Does anyone know some specs of Golf cart motors to put into Uve's calculator??? 

Many thanks .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might as well build the vehicle first, see how it ends up, then you can see what you need and what is available when you're done. Chances are lithium batteries will be even cheaper by then.
For reference I'm using a 7.5inch Yale forklift motor that weighs 60 lbs, running at 48 volts with a 400 amp Alltrax controller. It moves my very inefficient 750 lb 6x6 to 20 mph with 16.5:1 gearing. Obviously I'm geared very low for low end pulling power.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You might as well build the vehicle first, see how it ends up, then you can see what you need and what is available when you're done. Chances are lithium batteries will be even cheaper by then.
> For reference I'm using a 7.5inch Yale forklift motor that weighs 60 lbs, running at 48 volts with a 400 amp Alltrax controller. It moves my very inefficient 750 lb 6x6 to 20 mph with 16.5:1 gearing. Obviously I'm geared very low for low end pulling power.


yeah i suppose its just i am trying to estimate costs so i know how much i need to raise, but for the Running gear i am thinking £3000 and probably less if i could get a powerful golf cart motor S/H or likewise a forklift motor.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

So, if i wanted 100Ah and 48V (approx) how many lithium batteries would i need. they are 10Ah each and 3.3V so i would need a 14s10p setup or 2x 7s10p. 

please could someone confirm this, and would i need 140 batteries??? 

Many thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you are using 10 ah cells you need 10 in parallel to get 100 ah, then you need 14 sets of those 10 to get your 48 volts 100 ah, so yes 140 cells.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok, brill. Does anyone know what the Motor a motor b numbers etc are and how to calculate them using a different motor (thats not on Uve's list) 



Motor a
Motor b
Motor c
Motor d
Motor k
Motor n


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

d is voltage, but that's all I know.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

was looking at this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/agni-motor-sourcesi-29467.html and looked at the graphs and it can produce 30kw at 72V!!! 

would the same motor at 48V (18kw) be substantial for my needs????????

(using the same variables as before - 300kg etc)

Many thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not all that familiar with that motor and don't know if it can run at 48 volts.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm not all that familiar with that motor and don't know if it can run at 48 volts.


http://agnimotors.com/95_Series_Performance_Graphs.pdf 

it can run at 48v see graphs


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ah I see. The 3600 RPM limit might be a problem, you might need gear it high to get a reasonable top speed but it might not be low enough for low end power.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

how many rpm would be enough (estimate) to balance the power vs gear ratio. 

If i had a gear ratio of 5:1 (if i use motorcycle gears i am able to alter them from about 2.5:1 - 5.5:1) and i wanted a top speed of 70mph i would need 3800 RPM. 

or if i used the 3600RPM at 48V and same ratio i would have a top speed of 66.34 MPH . 

Do you reckon that gear ratio is high enough??


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is also the problem of cooling the motor at lower RPMs. If you're geared around 65 top speed at 3600 RPM and you do a lot of cruising around at 30 mph at 1800 RPM, pulling more amps at the lower speed and generating less airflow with the internal fan. I don't know enough about the motor to tell you if that's going to be a problem. I do know that when I was researching for my 6x6 I was warned away from the PERM motor, which is similar to the Agni, as being too small for my needs.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

So it would be better to go for 60v or 72v where the max rpm is 4000/5000 respectivly where the gearing would be (at 70mph top speed) 5.25:1 / 6.57:1 

which is significantly better and at 45mph it would be at about 2000/2500 RPM, at which rpm it creates 10kw of power. Enough??? 

my head hurts  , lol

yeah i keep getting warned about them but no-one explains! can someone thanx


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you would be better off with the higher voltage, but you should probably go over to endless-sphere.com since they have more experience with those types of motors and projects your size. Or PM Jozzer here, who is also on ES, since he has these motors. http://www.jozzbikes.co.uk


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ok, 

Just went over to my unit and was charging my van's battery (been stood for 2 years) and thought wow thats quite chunky looked at the performance and it was 12V obiously but 100Ah  and it cost £60 in france when we bought it. 

I assume it would be about 80Ah in reality , what sort of percentage is the general rule of thumb??

But that would be 135kg on batteries alone!!!! >>>>>>>>>> back to lithium.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

How about this: 

http://www.golfcartcare.com/Merchan...Code=D380&Category_Code=ccmot&Product_Count=2

5700RPM , Gear ratio 7.5 : 1 , Continuous 5.5 HP 

enough umph?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Specs seem good, but notice the open end without a bearing. It's made to bolt up to a golf cart differential. Aren't they located in the US anyway?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> I assume it would be about 80Ah in reality , what sort of percentage is the general rule of thumb??


I think 60% usable capacity with lead.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Specs seem good, but notice the open end without a bearing. It's made to bolt up to a golf cart differential. Aren't they located in the US anyway?


yeah but i was hoping either A to source a supplier in the uk or B get a golf cart from salvage and use the motor etc.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ok, just had a thought to reduce some cost's maybe. i have been building Liege's for many many years now and i have just thought why not make it electric instead of my complex aperta design thing. 

ok here is one i built back a while when i was very young, it was then sent to the USA to the lane motor museum in tennasee (SP). 










and i also have a blue one and another Kit.

it weighs about 500kg all up.

will try and do some tests to see the drag coefficient. can anyone estimate this?? it is a lovely car and basically everything is adjustable and i have tonnes of parts (no joke )


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

am thinking of this motor:

http://www.everything-ev.com/impuls...e-p-237:d2bb778cf99e573d523982464fea3b9c.html

and some Lifepo4 cells (72V 90AH)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting vehicle, low weight, small frontal area, but the flat, vertical windshield and open cockpit probably gives you a higher cd. You might be able to rake the windshield back more for better flow, and get a top for it.
The Impulse9 would be plenty big enough.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have to say the price on the Impulse9 is terrible, you could probably buy it from the US and have it shipped for less http://www.evsource.com/tls_impulse.php


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting vehicle, low weight, small frontal area, but the flat, vertical windshield and open cockpit probably gives you a higher cd. You might be able to rake the windshield back more for better flow, and get a top for it.
> The Impulse9 would be plenty big enough.


its not that vertical actually its at about 60 deg from horizontal, yeah and the other car has a hood which looks great and is very slick, but also to help things a bit i can lower it on the coilys by about 4-6 inches , but then i have to go to lower wheels.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ok, so i am still planning on using a Agni 95 and here is a graph the motor:









and here is a graph of the power vs rpm needed at 5:1 gear ratio. (this takes into account RR and Cd.:










My question is, is the motor powerful enough on paper (from these graphs)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I really hate those multi-parameter graphs. The point of graphs is visual representation of data to allow easy comparison, not picking through different lines, colors and data points. In any case, what voltage does that graph represent?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I really hate those multi-parameter graphs. The point of graphs is visual representation of data to allow easy comparison, not picking through different lines, colors and data points. In any case, what voltage does that graph represent?


thats why i am struggling to interprit them. 72V it is.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ok, contemplating changing again on the basis of practicality of the final product. 

i was looking at wiki and coefficients and one popped out at me, the Honda CRX (0.29) and weighs 800kg just trying to estimate weights, i would guess the engine weighs about 130kg??


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=316&cat_id=40,34,20

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=267&cat_id=11,31

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=197&cat_id=12,29

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=189&cat_id=12,28

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=217&cat_id=24

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=366&cat_id=24

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=372&cat_id=25

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=79&cat_id=13

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&product_id=257&cat_id=13

http://ev-solutions.net/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3


Could someone please check the compatability of that system and if i need anything else major (except batteries they will be 72V 90ah litium) 

Many thanks


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Sorry change of plan AGAIN!!! . will explain my thought process. 

I initially thought of building a custom build spaceframe three wheeler but the cost of manufacture and complexity was too high, and as a result i thought about converting my Liege Kit car, this was better as no construction was needed but the space was limited and the practicality of the car was low because of having no roof!!!

So i then thought a CRX which would be practical and need no massive construction and the figures were good cd 0.29 800-900kg but then i looked more recently at a Citreon Saxo VTS mk1 which i have 7 of  and the cd of that to my suprise was 0.33 and weight of about 850kg . yaay. and i have tonnes of parts for the car and plenty of knowledge about the car. 

here is the car i am planning to use atm.


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## Alchemist (Apr 16, 2009)

Using this platform will definitely save you alot of time, money and challenges than if you built something from nothing! Very clean car!


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Alchemist said:


> Using this platform will definitely save you alot of time, money and challenges than if you built something from nothing! Very clean car!


yeah, defo. lol at the clean car. LOOK CLOSER.  .

now someone try and identify the rear of the RED car in the pic. should be easy.

Do you yanx know what car this blue one is?? do you have it in the US?


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## Pelectric (Oct 14, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> now someone try and identify the rear of the RED car in the pic. should be easy.


Is it a 1973 Carrera?

You should clearly convert that! That would be awesome!

Anyways, Would you keep the Saxo FWD? 

Pel


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Pelectric said:


> Is it a 1973 Carrera?
> 
> You should clearly convert that! That would be awesome!
> 
> ...


nope 911 83" SC 

yeah will keep the saxo fwd so much simpler.


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## Pelectric (Oct 14, 2008)

DOH! its totally not a 73, my bad.

Good luck with your conversion, It'll be interesting to see how it progresses.

Pel


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

ok, over the last month or so i have been quite demoralised by funds but i am on the way up, and have been inspired by EV's at my local Kit car show, and have found suppliers local to me also. so i costed it all up and came out at £6904.20  i knew it was going to be expensive but jeez thats $11,500 USD for you yank chaps, but this is using 144v 90ah Lifepo4 and a Warp9 , Zivan NG3 Charger etc. is this price about right for that sort of stuff, remember i am in the UK so there is all sorts of TAX on that price and delivery from USA. 
thanks
jordan


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

btw this is the Donor Vehicle is this









this is also another one of the cars i had and hopefully i will get it to this standard (maybe stardard alloys aswell)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The lithium jacks up the costs, no way around it, but hopefully in the long run you'll get your money's worth out of them. What controller are you looking at using?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The lithium jacks up the costs, no way around it, but hopefully in the long run you'll get your money's worth out of them. What controller are you looking at using?


Cutris 500a or a kelly depends what i can get my hands on.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok we have another change of car but only difference is the Colour from Dark blue to dark grey. anyway i've made quite a bit of progress in the last two days.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

had a spare hour today so i removed the heater matrix and the fuel tank, fuel lines etc.

and the depth of the fuel tank is enough for a few cells if i need any more space, its amazing how light it is becoming now. once its all stripped out will put it on the weighbridge. :y:


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok, bit of an update, i had a call from the guy doing my polycarb saying they will be with you asap, should of been here on the 22nd/23rd (by courier Fedex) so he will find out where it is with the tracking number. 

Also today i had to take my sis to work and while i was in Exeter i thought i would pop in to Marsh barton and get a Ceramic heater from B&Q. 

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.j...refview=search&ts=1261666715591&isSearch=true

Started like the above and this is what happened to it.  










Unbolted everything. 










Took the switch panel out.










Removed the Blower


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Cut the blower off the Loom as i will be using the car's blower.










Removed the Ceramic element










And finally layed it on the original saxo heater matrix. so its now ready to be marked out and cut. 

What i will probaby do is remove the temperature controller on the saxo dash and replace it with that panel for loads of adjustment on temperature.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

How the hell can i change my title GRRR !!


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> How the hell can i change my title GRRR !!


 
Why not just start a new thread? You could put a link to this thread in the first post for anyone wanting to follow the history of your conversiion.

Keith


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