# Wayland's 350Mile per Charge Honda Insight BEV



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

IamIan said:


> Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
> See Link for details.
> 
> Crazy Highlights.
> ...


that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> that's 958 hp , can you imagine putting that to the ground , the suspension and full roll cage would need to be like those custom 4x4 rally cars .


 It say's a 200KW controller, he's building a range car not another dragger!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice. I like the plan for Blue Meanie too. Wayland really is an asset to the EV community. I couldn't take the "style" of communication between the guys on the NEDRA boards, but have the utmost respect for what Wayland does on asphalt, cement, and salt... ((thumbs-up))


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm hoping he'll add "salt" to that list. With 200 kW and great aerodynamics the Insight would be a respectable Salt Flats car.


toddshotrods said:


> Nice. I like the plan for Blue Meanie too. Wayland really is an asset to the EV community. I couldn't take the "style" of communication between the guys on the NEDRA boards, but have the utmost respect for what Wayland does on asphalt, cement, and sand... ((thumbs-up))


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I'm hoping he'll add "salt" to that list. With 200 kW and great aerodynamics the Insight would be a respectable Salt Flats car.


Actually, I meant to say salt not sand - I was referring to the land speed bike...  I edited my post.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I've been reading his blog posts as well and I'm very interested to see the outcomes of these new projects of his.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> It say's a 200KW controller, he's building a range car not another dragger!


 I didn't say he was . that's what battery pack can do(10xC) 715 KW or 958 hp .


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> I didn't say he was . that's what battery pack can do(10xC) 715 KW or 958 hp .


10C discharge peaks is small compared to the 40C discharge peaks he used in the Zombie.

715kw from batteries would probably at best only give you about ~640kw to the wheels ... still crazy high amount of peak power ... even if he wanted to make it into a drag racer ... he would need some crazy modifications to keep the tires from just spinning out with that kind of power being put down ... and allot of those kinds of modifications would seriously hurt his range goals.

Thinking of crazy uses for that kind of ~600kw of electrical power leads me to lasers... Here is a high power laser diode that can do 500kw to 2MW and is itself only 22x26x8 cm... granted each laser blast only lasts a maximum of 1ns , but still part of me finds it funny... or a Tesla Coil for the car shows... but no ... we want something 'practical' like driving for 350 miles in 1 charge.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:

SLPB-60460330H
70Ah
3.7V Nominal
2C Max Charge Rate
5C max continuous Discharge rate
10C max peak pulse discharge rate
between 1.87 kg and 2.03 kg each 
5.8 mm ( +/- 0.3 ) x 455 mm ( +/-2.0 ) x 325 mm ( +/- 2.0 )
Bewteen ~0.802978 Liters to ~0.9115779 Liters each
Between ~138.5 Wh / kg and ~127.5 Wh / kg
Between ~322.5 wh / L and ~284.1 Wh / L

Wayne listed 258 cells in a 3P86S format.
between 1,152 lbs and 1,061 lbs just for batteries + Connections + box + etc.

~208 Liters to ~236 Liters + connections + Box + etc.
If just the batteries were all in one tight mass it could be as small as ~60cm x ~60cm x ~60cm ... or 
~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches x ~23.6 Inches.

He listed 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh ... 
but the cells spec sheets I could find look more like it would be 318.2V , 210 Ah , ~66.8 kwh.

At 80% DoD ( ~53.4 kwh usable ) that means he needs to average about ~6.5 miles per kwh to make the 350 mile trip in one charge... that will be hard at 55+ MPH highway speeds , including the extra several hundred pounds of weight he is adding to the vehicle.

If he does have 75 Ah cells at 80% DoD that gives him ~57.2 kwh usable of the 71.5 ... which would still need more than ~6.1 miles per kwh at those 55+ MPH highway speeds including the extra several hundered pounds of weight he is adding.

Sounds tight / a close call to me... may or may not make it... will be interesting to see what is average speed ends up being and how much energy he does end up using.



piotrsko said:


> my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage


They will eat allot of space ... but if he plans it out carefully , he might be able to make it look nearly OEM and still have 2 full seats and the area above the rear flat OEM IMA cover... from the outside it might not look that different from an OEM Gen-1 Insight.

With the Rear IMA area gutted , spare tire removed, and rear cargo area ... all combined there might just be enough space to make it still look near OEM from the top with the rear IMA hatch cover down ... I would expect him to split up the battery pack though ... putting some in the front, not only for space but to distribute the weight.

- - - - - - - - 

Considering the goal of ~350 Miles ... I think his desire to use 10C discharge rated cells is an error better suited for the drag strip and less so for this specific application.

We won't be able to use that much discharge rate ... and he could have done better than ~138 wh / kg with other types of cells... even if they don't have the 10C discharge rate.

At 100 kw he won't even be pulling 2C ... and even 200 kw won't be over 3C for a 70+ kwh pack.

A Tesla-ish style pack with modern 18650 cells each over 200 wh / kg would have given him significantly more energy ( ~100 kwh ) in the same weight ... or shaved off a chunk of weight for the same capacity.

But I still look forward to see how it comes out... he has done nice work in the past.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

IamIan said:


> Heads up here comes Silver Streak:
> See Link for details.
> 
> Crazy Highlights.
> ...


Damn it! All that work he is doing to the Insight and to the Blue Meanie is so damn interesting, I wish I had his resources or lived closer to him, I would donate my hours free of charge just to learn and be part of that!

I have to think of ways to raise funds/sponsorship to do a build like that!

Anyone have any ways? Grants?


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## aqureshi (Apr 1, 2011)

Nice post.
One question though.
Which battery is being used here?
I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
I have a project in the works which im working on my self.

Very hush hush | top secret.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

My bet is over 250 w/ kg battery custom pack .


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

aqureshi said:


> Nice post.
> One question though.
> Which battery is being used here?
> I mean the company that manufactures that battery.
> ...


In the initial report from Wayne it was indicated a 75Ah cell from Kokam was being used.

The closest match I could find on Kokam's site is a 70Ah rated cell ( SLPB-60460330H ) ... the specs on the 70Ah cell and link are in previous post.


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

Wow, Wayland has been busy.

The Insight is a pretty 'slippery' car, so he'd be hard-pressed to find a better donor to start with.


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

IamIan said:


> I'm not sure what 75Ah cells he refers to ... The closest cells I found on the Dow Kokam web site are:
> 
> SLPB-60460330H
> 70Ah
> ...


Hello Everyone,

The cells I am using, like other cells I get from Kokam, are not listed on their site. They are indeed 75 ah cells, not 70 ah as some have assumed. Another incorrect assumption I've seen here, is that they have to be limited to an 80% DOD - not true with these hi pro cells, tested at 100% DOD for more than 1400 cycles with 87% capacity afterwards! I intend to take them to 100% DOD on my long range trips, and even at that the cells will still have juice left, as like my experience so far has been, Kokam is very conservative in their capacity ratings...these cells are really more like 76-77 ah. As to the choice of cells and opinions here that I should have used other types, higher energy, or that I have 'errored' in the choice of using 10C type cells, etc....when you are being 'given' a large amount of new LiPol cells, you 'don't' complain and you do the best with what you have been fortunate to have been given. I would have prefered a certain model cell that is very high energy with low power density, as the AC drive will not ever use the kind of power density the car will have in reserve, but again, you take what comes your way, then do your best to do remarkable things with what you have to work with.

To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh pack...it will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles.
At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.

See Ya...John Wayland


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Good to see you post John. Can't wait for updates on this project and the upgrades to Blue Meanie


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

John Wayland said:


> To sum it up, despite all the armchair analysis here, Silver Streak will indeed, have a fully accessible 71.5 kWh pack...it will only consume about 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph, and at 65 mph on average, it should consume ~ 65 kWh to travel 350 miles. At 55 moph on average, the car will top 400 miles per charge.
> 
> See Ya...John Wayland


Thanks for taking on the project ... I love it.

Thanks for the additional information and clarifications.

I'm curious about What method did you use to determine the 185 wh / mile @ 65 MPH?

When I think about the OEM weight and aerodynamics 71.5 kwh @ an average of ~65 MPH it seems to need about ~85% efficiency from the battery to wheels to achieve ~350 miles even at 100% DoD... even with no head wind, and no slope ... which might be doable , but tight ... between controller losses , motor losses, etc.

The conversion reads like it will be several hundred pound increase to the vehicle weight ... every ~18 pounds of additional weight will increase the rolling resistance by ~1%.

So I am curious about what the additional detail is that I am missing ... is the Aerodynamics being improved during the conversion? ... Is a good bit of the vehicle being stripped down to bare bones to be able to reduce the negative impact of the weight of that many batteries? ... or something else?


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## algea07 (Oct 1, 2010)

are dow kokam selling batteries to diyers?

it seems strange that they would poor money into john's project then not sell their product to other garage converters.

their site seems to talk for paragraphs about how "amazing" their product is, but there is no information on price.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

algea07 said:


> are dow kokam selling batteries to diyers?


No they aren't. They give these cells to John to generate publicity, in order to get OEM's interested in purchasing them for production auto applications.


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

I have a deposited down on a insight chassis, if there is any information or drawings you would like to share please feel free. I have started drawings in Google Sketchup the Thundersky pack model has a model of the insight on layer 1 that is to scale I don't know how accurate the insight model is. It does give you an idea of how big things are physically in comparison to the chassis.


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

Hello Everyone,

The Tesla does 245 miles on its 53 kWh pack - that's 216 Wh per mile. If the Kokam pack's 71.5 kWh was on board the Tesla, it would cover 331 miles. The Tesla's .31 cd makes it an areodynamic brack compared to the Insight's .25 cd., plus the Tesla pushes fat 225 section non LRR tires, too...this explains why it uses 216 Wh per mile. The EV1 was more areo than the Insight and achieved 167 Wh Wh per mile @ 65 mph and could travel up to 160 miles on 26.7 kWh (I personally got 145 miles range when I drove NiMH powered EV1s). My converted Insight will weigh about 200 lbs. less than the EV1, has the same efficient motor and just as efficent inverter, and has the exact size LRR tires and light weight wheels, so it will easily roll down the highway, only not quite as slippery as the EV1. 

I am very good at building EVs that require very little juice to roll along (and go like stink) - Blue Meanie is a great example and gets very good range on very little kWh. With its lead acid pack at just 7.9 kWh it did ~40 miles @ 55 mph for about 185 Wh per mile. The Insight is far more areo than the 1200 but less than the EV1, thus the 185 Wh per mile @ 65 mph projected efficiency.

It's pretty well covered at 'Wayland's Words'.

See Ya...John Wayland


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

I wish you the best of luck John.

I have enjoyed the great work you have done in the past.

But with the added weight ... and without aerodynamic improvements ... I still think 185 wh / mile at 65 MPH is a bit optimistic... possible ... but it leaves a small margin for head wind , slope, and efficiency losses between the battery and the wheels... all of which are likely to come up over a 350 mile trip.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> No they aren't. They give these cells to John to generate publicity, in order to get OEM's interested in purchasing them for production auto applications.


http://www.e-transportation.eu/catalog/product.php?id_product=49


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Is that a legit source? This is the first I've heard of this.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is really a great project, exactly what is necessary to show the industry, and the world, what an efficient vehicle is capable of. Since the general public is most concerned with range, this could be as important as the racing efforts, maybe more so.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

My impression from feedback at several EVents is that many of the "public" want to see a 5 person car with such range at the price of a compact car. They consider vehicles like the Insight impractical, not a "real" car. I would guess their reaction will be along the lines of "Yeah sure, you can fill up a tiny light car with barely room for two people with expensive batteries and get good range and performance, but what about a practical car for a family of five at a price I can afford?"


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> This is really a great project, exactly what is necessary to show the industry, and the world, what an efficient vehicle is capable of. Since the general public is most concerned with range, this could be as important as the racing efforts, maybe more so.


There is nothing we can show the industry they don't already know. There are thousands of professional engineers working on EVs in big companies like GM, Tesla or VW. They are not stupid.

Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)... It's the same thing with my BMW also.

Let's just be a bit more realistic.

It's not very hard to build a purpose-built car which is good for a few quarter mile runs and which is beeing driven and serviced by people who know what they are doing. A completely different thing is to build a affordable car which works for everyone. 

Just an example: Precise SOC determination in high performance EVs. I haven't seen a single one. It seems simple but if it has to work in all conditions and temperatures, measure 5 kW and 500 kW equally precise, it is a major development venture.

What I want to say... GM could easily build cars like we did but where's the point for a big OEM?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It took Tesla building the Roadster to catch the public eye and get the industry motivated to start building actual EV's. It's not a practical car, and the industry could have built something similar, but they lackd the vision and motivation. Bob Lutz as much as admitted that and the head of Toyota was motivated to restart the RAV4EV project after riding in a Roadster. We need people pushing the boundaries of speed and range in EV's so there is something to point to and say "this is what is possible". No vehicle meets the needs of all people, never will, but some good examples of what can be done are necessary. I'd much rather see something like the Solectria Sunrise getting incredible mileage from a relatively small pack but this project is the next best thing.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

What are the problems? Have you have problems with your DC motors on the highway? I would think direct drive would excel on the highway and have trouble with stop-and-go or steep hills.


CroDriver said:


> try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor ...


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It took Tesla building the Roadster to catch the public eye and get the industry motivated to start building actual EV's. It's not a practical car, and the industry could have built something similar, but they lackd the vision and motivation.


Creating / encouraging public / consumer demand is a very worth while investment ... that is why there are $Billions spent on Advertising.

I see this project along the same kind of lines ... it isn't telling anyone up to speed in the field anything they don't already know ... but it is a way to address some of the common concepts some people have that act as barriers to them wanting to buy a BEV ... I think the Tesla did a similar thing along different lines.

When it comes to BEVs the car industry has not been leading the way ... they have been dragging their feet ... but at the end of the day ... supply and demand still rules ... If the consumer demands it ... someone will be willing to take their money and supply them a product.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My biggest problem with the industry is they aren't attacking the range issue the correct way. Since the batteries are still the most expensive part they should put more emphasis on getting the most out of those batteries, which means greater emphasis on aerodynamics and weight savings. The LEAF could have had a much better cd and could have been lighter, both of which would have increased it's range significantly. Good aerodynamics shouldn't cost any more to build than poor aero. Light weighting might cost more but it's probably cheaper than adding more batteries, and once the design is done and volume production kicks in the extra costs of lightweight design and materials will be reduced per vehicle.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> What are the problems? Have you have problems with your DC motors on the highway? I would think direct drive would excel on the highway and have trouble with stop-and-go or steep hills.


DC motors are flying apart at high RPMs (been there, done that - twice) and suck efficiency wise at low RPMs.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Got it. So does this mean you'll be using trannies or going to AC?


CroDriver said:


> DC motors are flying apart at high RPMs (been there, done that - twice) and suck efficiency wise at low RPMs.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> My biggest problem with the industry is they aren't attacking the range issue the correct way. Since the batteries are still the most expensive part they should put more emphasis on getting the most out of those batteries, which means greater emphasis on aerodynamics and weight savings. The LEAF could have had a much better cd and could have been lighter, both of which would have increased it's range significantly. Good aerodynamics shouldn't cost any more to build than poor aero. Light weighting might cost more but it's probably cheaper than adding more batteries, and once the design is done and volume production kicks in the extra costs of lightweight design and materials will be reduced per vehicle.


 They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The thing is I think there is already a substantial market of early adopters more interested in practical efficiency, and I'll bet most of the ones buying pure BEV's have a second vehicle, so hauling the family and all their junk is not a concern. Truth is that the early adopters are not the general public, and current production can't keep up with current demand. Even so I doubt the general public would care if the LEAF were a few hundred pounds lighter and had a lower cd, especially since that would translate into more miles per charge, which the general public is concerned about.


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## algea07 (Oct 1, 2010)

they are mostly just tiptoeing around the new technology of electric cars, thats why they are generally underpowered and small, and why those alleged plug in hybrids have appalling range.

i think what the ev industry really needs is a corporate sports car, something like the Nissan same battery and floor plan with a say 150kw -200kw motor and looks like a sports car, if you could do that and sell it for a similar price people will buy it. looks are the most important thing in selling a car. 

who here wold honestly buy a leaf to drive to and from work every day? now who here would buy a small two seater with 150kw and 160km range to get them to work

both cars are essentially similar in build cost but one has a much broader market. and when you are building a corporate sports car you don't have to worry about how many vegetables and children it can carry.

Note: when i say corporate sports car i mean any cheep two seater that is made to look like but not necessarily perform like a sports car.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> They aren't marketing to you, or ev enthusiasts in general. They are targeting the general public, and to many of them more vehicle mass is a good thing as it is perceived as safer. Many of the public also care more about how many kids, dogs, and groceries they can fit than they do about Cd. You can give them what they want or try to take on the job of educating them, which generally gives low ROI I think. So far manufacturers have added electric motors mainly to give more power and improved acceleration in the kinds of vehicles they know sell, since they know increased performance also sells, and increased mileage isn't as much an issue until gas prices go up over $4.00/gal. I drive a little electric Swift and think it works fine for most of my driving, but that is not what many of the public think, and if you want to sell in high volume to get costs down as you said, you have to target the majority of the public. I think when gas prices go much higher, there will be more interest the the type of vehicle you described, and once the manufacturers see the market is there, they will start building them.


^^^Pretty much everything he said.^^^

I think there will be more and more electric vehicles, in all the differing configurations, but the goal of the manufacturers (at least at this point) isn't to build the ultimate BEV, _pure_, electric car. The latest round of them proves this point - they're trying to make them more conventional, or at least more conventional appearing. Nissan even designed the motor bay of the Leaf to look like a traditional engine bay - on an economy car! That really speaks volumes about where their focus is. If you really think about what the companies exist for, you have to agree it's a smart move. They're publicly owned and traded companies, which means their primary focus is value for the shareholders (owners). The vehicles are a means of generating it. Maximum value dictates over all, not maximum benefit. Maximum benefit is a sales pitch.

As for Wayland's project: it's very important, even if the average person doesn't connect with it on a personal level. It's a halo car, just like a Corvette, a Viper, or a Tesla Roadster. Every person I have mentioned vehicles like WZ to seems more convinced with the potential and viability of EVs in general. I can't wait to be able to say this guy has a little Datsun that runs 9s, and an Insight that goes 350 miles! I can hear the "wow, I didn't know they could do that" replies now! Accomplishments like that help people believe in the technology. That is a huge battle in itself. I remember when using adhesives to put cars together was first mentioned - instant fear reaction, even though NASA was using it to build space vehicles!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Got it. So does this mean you'll be using trannies or going to AC?


I have recently built our AC system into the BMW. I won't be using DC much any more. Only one project is still using DC - the off-road buggy we're building.

But this thread is about John's Honda so we're off-topic.


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

Hello Everyone.

From CroDriver:

>Who would buy a Insight-like car with 50.000$ worth battery cells...

No one, of course. However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles.

>or a Datsun like car which is great for a 1/4 mile but sucks pretty much everywhere >else (try to go on a highway with a direct drive DC motor)

CroDriver, maybe you need to see my post under the drag Bug thread...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile.

See Ya...John Wayland


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

John Wayland said:


> ...However, accomplishing something everyday folks can relate to, such as traveling between two physically large states between two major cities nearly 200 miles apart, in 'an electric car' at posted speed limits proves - it 'can' be done. The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles...


Exactly. It's another battle in the war, won. I'm talking about "war" over misconceptions, fears, etc, not people or alternative technologies.




John Wayland said:


> ...82 miles on the open highway with 30% battery left, direct drive DC motors hand-touch warm, under 200 Wh per mile, 0-60 in 1.8 and 10.2 1/4 mile...


Thanks for posting, and re-posting, that. Helps me keep my focus...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> The thing is I think there is already a substantial market of early adopters more interested in practical efficiency, and I'll bet most of the ones buying pure BEV's have a second vehicle, so hauling the family and all their junk is not a concern.


 I agree with the latter statement, but probably disagree with what is "substantial". You said earlier that high volume production would bring costs down. I don't think the volume required is attainable with just this segment of the market. It could be that it is large enough to get the manufacturers started, and as gas prices increase more the market will increase. It could also be that increasing gas prices will drive the economy into another recession leading to demand destruction, lower gas prices, and a decrease in demand for electric vehicles. 



> Truth is that the early adopters are not the general public, and current production can't keep up with current demand.


 Yes, because current production levels are abysmal, nothing close to production levels of other cars, not because the number of early adopters is large. They could probably satisfy that market with a production level comparable to that of their most popular cars in less than one year. I suspect for example, that Nissan is not dedicating more of their production capacity to ev's because their other vehicle models are more profitable. Plus they likely want to see if any unforeseen issues crop up that cause a recall.

I think the "conversation on electric cars" has already moved to a larger sedan with 300 mile range. The Tesla did give proof of concept that an ev could go fast and far, and be reliable. I would guess that to many an Insight with an expensive battery pack is just a lower performance Tesla (long range but only two passengers and not much cargo space) that still cost way too much. Many can't afford to spend even the cost of a Volt, so they won't consider buying a BEV until they see a low cost sedan with 300 mile range, and a charging station infrastructure. So I guess it is a question of can the manufacturers get a foot up in the ev business selling to "early adopters" without loosing too much money, and have improvements in batteries happen soon enough, and gas prices stay high enough to expand the market. I don't expect significantly improved batteries in high volume production quantities for at least 8 years, and a lot of things would have to "go right" for that to happen. For example, a change in political leadership in two years could lead to loss of federal financial support for research in this area.

I get excited when I hear of new advances related to evs, but the above is my attempt at a more objective appraisal based on feedback I have gotten from people looking at my ev. Could be it is not a representative sample - NV is not the most open-to-change state.  Myself, I think we will be forced to make some big changes in the future, but most of us won't do it until forced, which will make the challenge much greater. Will be interesting to see how it unfolds though!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My own experience, as a driver of a 2 seat EV with 50 mile max range, has been different than yours. Most people are enthusiastic and impressed, some have even said "why aren't automakers doing this?" They are obviously thinking if I can do this in my garage what could a real automaker do? Admittedly I live in an area more environmentally aware and open to new ideas than most. Ithaca has been described as ten square miles surrounded by reality.  Still in a country of 300 million it only takes a small percentage of the population to sell millions of EV's, and the more that are sold the more people are exposed to the reality of them and more demand is created. People who won't accept an EV until it costs the same as a Civic and goes 300 miles aren't realistic and aren't the target market, nor will they be for years to come. People who have more than one vehicle and put a premium on the environmental and political benefits of EV's are and will be the target market for some time. The economic argument doesn't make sense for any new vehicle, an efficient used ICE will win out for a long time, yet people still buy new vehicles. They also buy impractical two seaters and often pay a premium for a less useful vehicle just to get the impression of performance, (not necessarily the reality of it), because performance is "cool". Performance is cool but so is efficiency, more so in today's world, perceptions are changing.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. 


John Wayland said:


> The logical conversation then moves to 'as battery tech improves and costs go down, you could soon be driving a family sedan that does 300 miles.


I agree with Wayland's point. In fact, you can already drive 200 miles for about $25K worth of batteries. 

What ticks me off is that car manufacturers are using the same equation to set their EVs price points and everyone's eating it hook line and sinker. They can buy this stuff much cheaper than anyone of us can yet, for their same price, we can build a car that performs equally or better, all while paying single unit retail prices.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

John Wayland said:


> Hello Everyone.
> 
> From CroDriver:
> 
> ...


Just my $0.02 (canadian funds)

But I feel it would be more fair to compare cars like yours or others like it, to prototypes or experimental vehicles. In that respect, I think many would be hard pressed to find a prototype made by an OEM (which are often outsourced anyway) that can match the potential cost and performance of cars you have already made.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'll post a comment to subscribe to this thread, I've been reading it up to just after the start of April and haven't been here since John popped in to give us some information on what he was doing. Awesome to see a project done on this car. My conversion will be with the Insight as well with my main delay being funding and figuring out paying for the conversion and purchase cost of components and getting over the desire to put money into my mortgage to pay a chunk down to lower interest costs early in the game(bought my house last year). Since I'm not beginning my project right now, when the weather is nice, and I have no desire to do it through winter, I'm on track to convert an Insight next summer. While I wait, I will be watching progress very closely, this may be the first conversion of an Insight that is actually well documented that has someone behind it who supports the EV community and is willing to share details. Everyone else who has converted one, including everyone on EV Album seems to have stopped updating their information and doesn't respond to any emails, even though they are short and straight to the point. Oh well, but it is awesome to see some high energy density batteries used. Like John said, they aren't the highest Kokam has but they are still much higher in energy density than the LiFePO4 that I'll be using(roughly 20kwh worth, weighing mid-400 lbs) I'll cross my fingers for improvements in energy density from Winston/Thunder Sky, CALB/Sky Energy, or HiPower but won't put my project on hold. Currently looking at getting a good price on some older generation HiPower batteries, since the car is light and aerodynamic and my gas version doesn't seem to care much in efficiency at steady speeds when it has a 500 pound payload, still getting 70MPG on the highway at 70MPH with it, I know it will make a difference but battery weight hopefully won't have too huge of an impact on my range with the stock low rolling resistance tires.

If I get John Wayland's estimation of efficiency, I'll have 100 miles range, I don't really need that much though, I could live with half that but it would be convenient to drive for months at a time without firing up a gas car to go father. I'll still keep my current Insight as I drive 20,000 miles a year which includes cross country trips, so I'll own two Insights. Right now the donor cars are a little on the pricey side since the most fuel efficient mass produced gasoline car is in heavy demand considering gas prices are close to the highs of mid-2008, possibly this fall the hysteria will drop off and I can get one for my donor target price. I missed my chance for a $2000 one last fall and having trouble finding one with a bad hybrid battery or some other issue that I could still drive one back to Minnesota with for a reasonable price. Having a rust-proof body is priceless to me to, which is another reason I'd love to convert one.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi.
> 
> 
> I agree with Wayland's point. In fact, you can already drive 200 miles for about $25K worth of batteries.
> ...


From my perspective, it appears the car manufacturers are having difficulties manufacturing electric cars. Think of this analogy: if a big oil tanker needs to change direction, it could take several miles to take effect. On the other hand a speed boat can change direction in a flash.

Didn't car manufacturers announce electric cars in the late 1990s? Some were even in production. Or was too much money spent on combustion engines that they need to recover costs and get a return on investment?
The electric cars which some of the car manufacturers produce in 2011 are way too expensive and it's probably because they think they can can get away with charging such high prices.

I've got the attitude that if it's to be, it's up to me. The car manufacturers can't even agree on a charging strategy.

Yet, people in our community charge batteries via the power point. When we park our electric vehicles at home, we charge it up like charging our mobile phones or other devices.

People in the EV community are to be commended for challenging the philosophy of car manufacturers. We have the "if its to be, it's up to me" attitude which is vital. I doubt the car manufacturers can change their strategy quickly, but sooner or later, the rest of society will see what we see.

That's my rant for today 
regards
Crazy Al


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

There are several Hybrid drive trains that would make great Pure EV drive trains the GM dual mode hybrid is one example. If I can get my hands on one I will rebuild it to make a pure EV with 2 Remy motors in it, it has more than enough power for a car. This looks like the most viable option for it has enough power to make a fun EV. Toyotas Prius motors are not powerful enough in my opinion to go through the effort required. The SUV hybrids Toyota makes do look like they would be worth the effort also. I haven’t looked into the Leaf motor and transmission which someone here said Nissan will sell outright. 
So to get an affordable power train you can go DC or secondhand AC. It is a matter of taste; I like the braking capacity of AC and BLDC motors, not for efficiency increase, but more for less ware on the mechanical braking system, which our drive trains add. Does anyone have contacts at Remy have them passed the economy of scale achieved through the Daimler GM hybrid drive train on to us DIY guys.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

CrazyAl said:


> From my perspective, it appears the car manufacturers are having difficulties manufacturing electric cars.


I'd agree with that too but qualify it with a further: having difficulties figuring out how to squeeze the obscene profits they've been getting out of ICE machines. It's not just the ICE cars themselves but the massive industry that it spawns. 

They have no interest in changing the status quo and for good reasons. They have us all bent over a barrel (no pun intended) with their oil model and there's little we can do about it. They know electric vehicles are far better. They know that if they invest just a small portion of what they do in promoting ICE oil changes to improve cell technologies they can make it more than just practical. But why? That just benefits their customers and the environment, not them.

Battery prices will not be driven down just by volume. A company with a hot battery technology like A123's won't just drop their prices because you buy a bunch of them. The key is competition. As soon as a few other battery companies stand in this space, A123 will say they've found new ways to reduce their costs and start competing in price. How convenient that will be. My first cellphone cost me $1800, the latest one was $100.

JR


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

CrazyAl said:


> I've got the attitude that if it's to be, it's up to me.


I don't think I've seen it summed up so effectively as in that sentence. Well said.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

JRoque said:


> I'd agree with that too but qualify it with a further: having difficulties figuring out how to squeeze the obscene profits they've been getting out of ICE machines. It's not just the ICE cars themselves but the massive industry that it spawns.


I totally agree with you. The modern ICE cars are getting harder to service as well. One needs all these Scan tools just to service a car. It appears that car makers are trying to force consumers to use their dealer network to get their cars serviced. There is even talk in the industry about charging customers a technology fee. Some already charge a waste disposal fee.

It is even getting more complex with the types of oils, spark plugs, filters, etc that a modern ICE car requires. Get it wrong and the ICE dies.

Are we supposed to call this progress?

It is ironic that a modern ICE car has more electronics & computers than an Electric Car. And as an end consumer, I ask if we are better off with the modern ICE car?

regards
CrazyAl


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

david85 said:


> I don't think I've seen it summed up so effectively as in that sentence. Well said.


Thanks David, I first heard that phrase at a course I went to almost 9 years ago.

Kind Regards
CrazyAl


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> my thoughts are more related to battery sizing and chemistry. I just cant envision any room in the vehicle except for battery storage


 If you look at the parts of the current White Zombie cells the Dow cells are more like envelopes and can be stuffed into a lot of spaces prizmatics cannot. They would also lend themselves well to an under the car belly pan pack like is going under the new Tesla-S. Spread em out too much and connections weight will go up though. Weird side thought. My car needs a belly pan to clean up the aerodynamics. What if I raised it up a little and......


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## tanzeelansari (Jul 5, 2011)

John Wayland's Gen-1 Honda Insight is being rebuilt for long range BEV. 350 Miles per charge at highway speeds of 55 to 70 MPH.

71.5 kwh battery rated for up to 715 kw of discharge power.
He is expecting to get about ~5 Miles per kwh over the 350 mile run.

He is considering weather to go with a 100 kw or 200 kw motor controller / Inverter and drive motor.

That's crazy ... but I look forward to reading more about it as the story unfolds.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Big updates from Wayland: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=486


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Big updates from Wayland: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=486


Looking good ... wishing him the best


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Nice, thanks for posting that he has an update. I'm interested in his project as it is my donor vehicle as well. I'm not putting 350 miles worth of cells in mine though, unless some sponsorship comes along but there won't be one for me but I don't really need one to build something more powerful than stock, just sucks that the length issue prevents the Warp 9 from fitting and the AC50 is questionable. The Impulse fits and the 220v Kostov is a similar size, I'll take the 9"HV Kostov over the Impulse as it looks to be the more efficient option and also lets me give me more torque and push higher revs.


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

Hello to All,

Thanks for the interest. Yes, the flat shape of the cells certainly helps
in the 'find places to put all of them' department! To be honest, it's quite a challenge to find the space for 985 ls. of cells - which when installed including the actually module cases, conductors, and BMS will be 1080 lbs. 

I 'had' wanted to simply make three, 318V, 75 ah rectangular batteries, 86 cells in each. These 75 ah cells are larger than the 30 ah cells used in the Zombie, and so they are thicker at ~ 1/2", thus 86 of them stacked in a row takes up ~43", so call the box 43.5" long. There is not a single area in the Insight, other than doing a ticky-tacky just fill the hatch area thing, where a rectangular box 11" wide, 12" tall, and 43.5" long can fit.

The other issue is weight balance, a priority so the car will handle very well, even though it will be about 1000 lbs. heavier than stock! Properly balanced and with new suspension pieces and light but strong bracing, the car will drive well. Improperly balanced, it would be a nightmare!

With the above considerations then, I've decided on 11 modules, 10 of them identical with an 11th one holding fewer cells and thus being a little smaller and lighter. Each module will be a flat-shaped rectangle that can be mounted either vertically or horizontally. The modules will be ~ 5" thick x ~12" tall x ~ 32" long, and will contain a 3P8S cell arrangement.
Doing it this way drops the BMS board count to 1/3 the number required for three separate 318V BIG batteries. Visualize 8 cells stacked on top of each other with two identical stack on each side. Each stack is in series to get 29.6V @ 75 ah, and going from left to right, each cell layer is paralleled, for 3 cells in parallel. A central-mounted RegDeck board & BMS will be connected to all three stacks. Each of these 24 cell flat modules will be 29.6V @ 225 ah, with the 11th module being an 18 cell 22.2V @ 225 ah. Total pack is 318V.2V @ 225 ah for 71.6 kWh.

With modules shaped like this, I can squeeze 3 under the hood (one laying flat, two standing vertically) without blocking the view of the rare EV1 AC motor with the gorgeous Rinehart Motion Systems inverter mounted with it - in addition to performance, presentation is very important. The other 8 will go midship both in the now empty IMA chamber below the hatch deck area, and underneath it where the gas tank was - all of it a very tight fit, all of it not yet all worked out and finalized. 

If it does work out, the competition grade sound system will go right back where it was, though it will now tilt up and away for battery module access and presentation.

I invite everyone to visit the 'Wayland's Words' section of my website to follow this project - the current posting has photos to go along with the story.

See Ya...John Wayland

<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/>





coulombKid said:


> If you look at the parts of the current White Zombie cells the Dow cells are more like envelopes and can be stuffed into a lot of spaces prizmatics cannot. They would also lend themselves well to an under the car belly pan pack like is going under the new Tesla-S. Spread em out too much and connections weight will go up though. Weird side thought. My car needs a belly pan to clean up the aerodynamics. What if I raised it up a little and......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Just read the blog. That picture made me chuckle 
Hope the wattage per mile goal will be reached. Id love to hear how the optimum magnetisation current is chosen. Road-testing and trying various magnetisation currents to obtain lowest watt/mile?

//Steven


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

congratulations with starting this build, John.
thanks for lots of info here and in your blog









numbers looks good - real challenge is to prove it in real life, and i have no doubts - you can
------------------
target converted weight - 2850lbs [1292.7kg]+driver 70= 1363kg

cd=0.25; frontal area 1.9m2
roll.res.c=0.007
drivetrain effy: contr.(inverter) motor,trany -85% 

at 60 mph power required: 
air drag - 5.6kw
roll.res - 2.5kw
dr.tr.eff.losses: 85%- 1.4kw ( 2kw-80%) 
*total power required = 9.6 kw*

*71.5kWh. /9.6kwat60mph=7.45hx60=447mi*

71.5kWh. /09kw at60=7.9hx60=477mi
71.5kWh. /10kw at60=7.2hx60=420mi
71.5kWh. /11kw at60=6.5hx60=390mi
71.5kWh. /13kw at60=5.5hx60=330mi
71.5kWh. /15kw at60=4.7hx60=286mi

accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw

------------------

thanks again for shearing details and for good info, John! please keep us updated on details and testing
i believe 400 mile, 8-hour trip ahead of us - soon : )
good luck


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

gor said:


> accel 0-60 in 30sec - 19kw


Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?

From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

IamIan said:


> Where did you see 19kw for acceleration from 0-60 in 30 seconds?
> 
> From what I read ... I thought John was expecting ~112kw for acceleration... even with the extra weight he was expecting down around ~7.4 seconds from 0-60... unless I completely misread/misunderstood something somewhere?


for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible

for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:

0-60 in 60sec (0.45m/s2) -09.6kw
0-60 in 30sec (0.90m/s2) -19.2kw
0-60 in 15sec (1.79m/s2) -38.5kw


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

JRP3 said:


>


 
yes, that's obviously would work for sneaking in drive-in movie

... JW looks taller in real life ...


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

gor said:


> for range test (demonstration) we want to pay for accel as lesss as posible
> 
> for constant accel only (85% effy, w/o drag) calculated values:
> 
> ...


My bad... I misunderstood your post then ... it read to me like you were posting your estimate for his conversions acceleration was only going to be 0-60 in 30 seconds.

I don't have a efficiency map of the controller and motor Wayland is using... So, Maybe I missed something else then as well ???

I thought most motor controllers and such were more efficient closer to full power ... and the high power rated batteries he is using should have very small Peukert k values for battery loads... and the longest range would come from operating the whole system at it's peak efficiency points as much as possible.

For Wayland's setup ... from what I read ~112kw.
19.2kw is less than 18% Load

18% load is the system peak efficiency point? ... that just seems to me to be an odd / weird point for peak efficiency of this system... so I guess I missed something else??


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine

i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

gor said:


> i don't know, Ian - until they start tests and have some results - your guess same good as mine


fair enough ... we will both have to wait for some more definitive data as the project unfolds.



gor said:


> i like JW idea to make series of long trips to show - long range IS possible and possible NOW; break common perception of EVs as heavy, slow, low power, low range golf carts, good only around city block
> i'm sure he can do it with the range (range fear) - same as he did it in the drag strip with power and speed


I love the concept myself as well ... not only will his conversion have a good sized range , but he is also upgrading the OEM acceleration at the same time ... and the icing on the cake might be the finished project has a good chance to look clean and finished also... so it has great potential.

It seems they have the right combination of skilled and knowledgeable people together working on this project ... combined with some nice sponsorship lined up and some quality components.

So I have no doubt they will successfully make the conversion ... and I have no doubt the finished conversion will have a much longer than normal range , and will perform very well , etc.

The only doubts I still have are about how tight some of the margins look to me ... although as already posted ... I don't have enough data to clearly know one way or the other... from what data we have already seen it looks to me like the finished project has a very good chance of having a significant % of SoC still left unused by the end of the trip ... and a slim chance it might run just a little short.



> The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system.


Of course as said above there is still a great deal unknown / undefined ... so YMMV definitely still applies.

From the details John has generously shared ... and the following assumptions:


no net change in OEM aerodynamics
With 0 MPH winds constant
@55 MPH steady
@60 degrees F constant
@14.7 Psi Air Pressure constant
0% Relative Humidity
the estimated final weight ~2,850
Not significantly more than ~220 Pounds of driver , beverage, music system, etc.
no slope up or down.
0.007 Crr Constant
71.5kwh usable battery output.
100% DoD
Peukert k value low enough to be reasonably negligible at the planned discharge rates.
final system average ~85% efficiency from battery output to wheels.


He might see a little more than ~500 Miles on a single charge ... which would easily complete his ~350 mile trip with plenty to spare ... yeagh!!!

But there are a lot of ifs and assumptions in that list ... all of which can effect the final out come.

The margins I see show a health surplus on the good side of finishing with better range than the ~350 target run ... but the margins do not look so big as to be a sure thing for the range of reasonably possible variations still undefined... YMMV.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic as I 20kwh in mine would yield 125 miles on a perfect day but I could probably figure 100 miles(80% max) fairly safely on a fairweather day on the highway and be fine if the right care is taken. I'm really oversizing for more voltage to allow for better power, longer useful battery life, and better cold weather performance with less heating but I'll take the range. There is a surprising amount of space in the back where that aluminum battery box is, where the fuel pipes and fuel pump are, where all of the air cooled ducting, and IMA electronics sit to where I don't even think I'd need to put any under the car where the gas tank would be removed from for modest range. 71.5kwh will be a challenge as he said it would definitely be easier with the cells he is using versus what most of us use and can afford.

Good luck John!


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> I'd be happy enough if he could do 350 miles off of 71.5kwh but if the Insight turns out to be capable of maintaining speed on the flat with good weather no wind load at 9.6kw steady state and really capable of 447 miles to 100% DOD (160wh/mile), I'll be ecstatic


I see a large range of factors still undefined ... only time will tell ... if it comes out as expected I anticipate in good conditions a bit over 500 Miles per charge 100% DoD ... but, even if it turns out as planed , in bad conditions the same vehicle might only go about ~200 miles on the same amount of energy ... There are just a lot of unknown variables that can have significant influence on the total amount of energy it takes to move the vehicle each mile of distance... I think he has a good buffer to have a good chance to do the ~350 miles ... but until other details get ironed out , I don't think it is a sure thing quiet yet.

@ 100% DoD his ~71.5 kwh is about ~2 Gallons of gasoline worth of energy ... in a drive system that I expect to average somewhere between 2 and 3 times as energy efficient as the OEM ICE ... which puts him at around the same range as a OEM Insight with about ~5 Gallons of gas in the tank... ~350 Miles from ~5 Gallons in a OEM Insight is doable ... but still in the range of YMMV.... +/- conditions and driving methods.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

John Wayland said:


> I invite everyone to visit the 'Wayland's Words' section of my website to follow this project - the current posting has photos to go along with the story.
> 
> See Ya...John Wayland
> 
> <http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/>


How is the project going? Pretty quite on the blog.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.

I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.

Only time and the man himself will tell.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

IamIan said:


> I have also noticed the quietness ... but ... my guess would be ... it is a combination of Holiday down time ... winter at least for me with less daylight , colder, etc is just a low energy season for me ... and he is getting several things customized / worked on for him ... so there will also be the schedule coordination side of things.
> 
> I'm hoping to hear something new in the way of updates by spring.
> 
> Only time and the man himself will tell.


true, winter - not best time for best results
especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make

just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok

------------

meanwhile, there is good news for EV community. Despite economy down, China dealing with range anxiety - progress of production EVs, its range, didn't stopped - Russia opening huge Lithium butt. plant; BYD e6 EV with 400 km (248 miles) range (not 186 mi -2011 spec) going to be sold in 2012 in over 20 BYD dealerships in Ukraine (in 2011 BYD had 13 dealerships - nearly in every major city of Ukraine )
http://www.byd.ua/ua/vehicle/e6.htm


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## John Wayland (May 26, 2008)

gor said:


> true, winter - not best time for best results
> especially if you have sponsors and bound by contract what info and statements you can make
> 
> just would be great to hear from John - project alive, everything ok
> ...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks for the update, John. Glad things are still on track. We'll have to see if you can come up to a LCEVA/LCCEVC meeting when it is finished. I can hardly wait to see it and get ideas for when I convert my 2000 Insight.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

John Wayland said:


> I am hoping to have the car done in time for this June's big 'Greenwood Classic' car show in Seattle, and plan to drive Silver Streak round trip from Portland - 350+ miles, without charging.


Cool.
Unfortunately to far for me in RI ... I'll have to enjoy it vicariously through others.



John Wayland said:


> When I feel I have something more interesting for others to read, I'll post it at 'Wayland's Words' at the Plasma Boy Racing web site.
> 
> See Ya...John Wayland


Thanks for taking the time.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

meanderingthemaze said:


> It would be great to know how the suspensions mods are done, so that others can safely convert on that platform. They really built that car to very tight tolerances. The max payload is only 400lbs, which includes passengers! Even with lightweight lithium, it's easy to go over tolerances.


Well ... Wayland was able to pull out a bit over 400 pounds in the strip down part of the conversion.

So ~800 Pounds or ~360 kg to work with.

If you are willing to tone down the power to a bit more like the OEM acceleration ... I think there is room for lower ranges that would still be reasonable for many people without the suspension upgrades ... although those suspension upgrades might be wanted anyway ... even if the weight is not more than OEM.

For example ... You could use a EMRAX motor ... give you a peak for acceleration of about ~60kw from only a ~12kg Motor ... There are a variety of controller options ... but should be able to do it easily under ~10kg ... even if you eat another ~40 kg or so in cooling, wires, battery boxes,etc ... you still have ~300kg or ~660 lbs to use for batteries without need for the suspension upgrades ... although it might not be a bad idea to do anyway.

At 100Wh/kg battery ... and there are plenty of others out there better than that ... ~300 kg is about ~30kwh of battery capacity potential ... in the light weight aerodynamic Insight Body that is about ~150 miles or so per charge... at ~150 wh/kg and the same ~300kg , you're up to about ~45kwh , or about ~220 Miles per charge.

Wayland is going beyond this of course ... he is going for much more than 60kw of peak acceleration ... I think he's aiming more for about ~137 HP ( which is about double the OEM ) ... and he is aiming for about ~71kwh of battery capacity ... but not everyone would need both the increased power and that much range ... so others might not have to push it as far as he is aiming for.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

The Wayland's Words blog hasn't been updated since October


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

If you don't need as much weight as they do, aka not a huge pack that's quite as expensive and aim for closer to 100 miles of range with a 20kwh pack you'll be around 400 pounds for the battery. You'll pull the weight of everything in the IMA box and the exhaust out, which won't weigh as much as you might think(It's in Wayland's vlog). At that point you can use the Matiz springs but that might not be enough spring, although I'm going to give it a shot when I convert mine since I have the springs already. If that doesn't work, people have fitted cut Miata springs(recent post in the Matiz thread), and there was another thread with cut Aveo springs. With the extra battery weight, cutting the springs would either be reduced or eliminated depending on how the springs handle the weight. You can always experiment by putting the springs on and then adding weight to the car where you are going to put it, water softner salt bags or really anything with the appropriate weight placed in the right spot should give a rough idea of how much the car will sink into the suspension. ..that's if you are asking in order to convert yourself with less battery weight(which I would recommend as 350 miles is more than most average gasoline cars go before they get filled).

Of course, Wayland's much higher weight has me curious how they are going to handle it too, we'll hopefully get some info in a future update. Hoping we get another update soon.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Wayland's conversions are unique. They are extremes and they use high end components that are made available by sponsors. 

The battery pack has very high energy density compared to the prismatic cells that we have access to. For the same weight, a prismatic pack would yield ~45kWh, compared to what…~72kWh with the Kokams?

The weight reductions also are potentially better for Wayland with a more powerful motor that doesn't require the transaxle to be retained, whereas it's likely the everyday converter would retain the transaxle (and its weight, say 70lbs?). Although as someone said, you could use those small PMDC motors with high power density and maybe it would be a wash in weight savings.

I'm making a generality of course, but compared with the Insight, other cars can be overladen with less safety issues. Remember that the Insight is composed of a lot of aluminum in critical areas. Aluminum doesn't bend as much as steel when overstressed. Again the payload is 400lbs. That means after two 160lb people get in, that leaves 80lbs of payload room. Even with ~330lbs of weight savings, you would probably be better off adding some extra support, unless you don't go over a 400lb battery pack.

I'm just saying that it would be great to have access to some of the insight (forgive the pun) that Wayland and team accumulate during the build. It would be a boon to converters.

Can't wait to hear an update from Wayland.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"The battery pack has very high energy density compared to the prismatic cells that we have access to. For the same weight, a prismatic pack would yield ~45kWh, compared to what…~72kWh with the Kokams?"

We have the numbers from Wayland. 71.5kwh and 1080 pounds(491kg). 71500/491=145.6wh/kg. Compared to prismatic cells a little over 100wh/kg, making a 20kwh pack around 400 pounds.

About the transmission, I've held it and it doesn't feel like it's 70 pounds. I also opened doors for someone carrying an Insight transmission down the elevator, through the halls, and out to his car and he didn't make it seem like it was a task at all to carry it. I can't really put a number on it but I'd say it's slightly under 70 pounds, felt like the 50-60 pound range but that's just a guess, I could be stronger than I think I am but for a transmission, it feels like it's as light as it could be. I'll be keeping it for my conversion and hoping I don't shatter it with extra torque and HP, if I do, I'll have to be more careful with the second one.

"I'm just saying that it would be great to have access to some of the insight (forgive the pun) that Wayland and team accumulate during the build. It would be a boon to converters.

Can't wait to hear an update from Wayland."

I agree, can't wait.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

However, strangely the Insight encyclopedia says it weighs 91lbs! Perhaps that is the "wet" figure, but I still can't imagine that the fluids would account for that much extra weight. 

I can imagine that the trans could be as low as 60lbs. Or you could have just had an extra can of spinach that day!


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## peteWine (Aug 4, 2012)

Great stuff! Any updates on this project?


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

The silver streak strangly isn't on his site (no direct link anyway) and he hasn't made mention of progress since 2011. zzzzz or boom


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

The project has only ever been on his blog. He hasn't been active recently due to personal struggles: 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78695


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