# Azure-Dynamics AC24LS motors



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I received a bunch of AC24LS motors in different incarnations and since I haven't found out much about them I figured it might be useful to start a thread here which can become a repository of information concerning said motors.

What I have learned thus far just from what is written on the boxes and taking stuff apart is:

The AC24LS motors with part # MTA-010112-00A are wired in delta while those with part # MTA-010113-00A are wired in wye. Both of these motors appear to have a standard industrial "C-face" on the output shaft end of the motor housing as shown in the 1st pic below. I have no additional info about these motors otherwise.

The AC24LS motors with a helical gear on the output shaft are supposed to be bolted to a mating gearbox as shown in the 2nd pic below. Bare motors - ie, with the helical gear exposed - do not have a support bearing for the output shaft. The helical gear with the bearing that fits into the mating gearbox is shown in the 3rd pic while the output shaft with the helical gear and bearing pulled off is shown in the 4th pic.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Got my interest, so I Googled, and found this: http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC24LS_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looked at these before. I think Azure are VERY optomistic with their ratings and ambitions for these motors, though I really like their designs. Wonder whether some cooling could be added to run the motors a bit harder in small car like a Japanese Kei car or something really small.

I'm in the UK so size works backwards here


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

What most people don't realize is that the Solectria/Azure motors are actually rewound Baldors. The AC24LS originally is a 220vac 5.5 KW that gets rewound in MA to 70vac 22 KW. The inverters for these motors were the bottleneck. 

I picked up one of the AC24LS/transmission packages from Tesseract before he left MA (thanks!) and now I'm working on inverters to play with. I have an older ACgtx20 and today I was given 6 Solectria inverters to repair from my university, so I'll test those out on my motor.

The Solectria motors used blowers on the ACgtx20, but these AC24LS are much larger. I'll try to get a picture of the two next to each other for comparison this weekend.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Looked at these before. I think Azure are VERY optomistic with their ratings and ambitions for these motors...


These motors are almost exactly the same size as the HPEVS AC-50, so, if Azure's ratings are optimistic then so are HPEVS'.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Here is an earlier thread in which the (often insufferable) user toyolla2 expounds on the crappy little AC24LS motor (plus gearbox) quite a bit:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ics-solectria-at1200-gearbox-shown-35225.html

I may have to rethink my pricing on these babies... 

It seems this motor should work well with the Curtis 1238 inverter. Anyone tried that yet?

To the SGC: let me know if you need any IGBTs for those broken DMOC inverters... I'm about to start throwing the ones from the open boxes up on ebay while I haggle pricing with companies that buy these things in bulk.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Here is an earlier thread in which the (often insufferable) user toyolla2 expounds on the crappy little AC24LS motor (plus gearbox) quite a bit:
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ics-solectria-at1200-gearbox-shown-35225.html
> 
> ...


I"ll start ripping apart those UMOCs this weekend, I might take you up on those IGBTs. I think the issue with the AC24LS is not with the motor, but the inverters. They are extremely weak and go into thermal overload very quickly. 

We had a Solectria EV at school that have an ACgtx20 that is rated for 12 KW cont and 35 KW peak. We later found out that its really 42 KW peak and one of the PhD students designed an inverter to replace the old AMC320 inverters and the little Geo Metro could hit 70 MPH no problem after that.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

For some reason this thread reminds me of Tesseract's Socratic seminar on building an alternator controller. Good news for the AC crowd?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry Tess, I meant that their performance feedback suggests the motors aren't doing as well as they think they would. But as SGC says, if the controller is the weak link then the potential of the motor/transmissions is yet to be fully realised, and I look forward to SGC showing it to us!

Did you get any transmissions to go with those motors? If the motors could perform as SGC suggests with a decent controller, then a pair of them would make me a VERY happy man in place of the Siemens/Borg setups the Azure Connect vans used. I could easily improve cooling on those and up the voltage through the motor to extent the power band a bit and get the same power for less amps.

Also thinking of a crazy idea of running FOUR of these motors, one per wheel with a belt reduction drive (contained in a sealed housing with the same coolign the motor uses) to give some unnecessarily rediculous 4wd performance ha ha but that would be totally unnecessary and OTT!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

TheSGC
If these motors are rewound for 22kW amd the agreed view is that you can over-speed an AC motor safely 4x its ratings that presents a potential* 88kW* peak, provided sufficient cooling allows this to be maintained for a useable period, say 20-30s aceleration (depending what you're accelerating and how fast...) which means a dual motor setup with the reduction gearboxes would provide excellent performance!

Also, would you be sharing the controller design you intend to use with this motor? Is there any chance of an open source AC controller along the lines of the Open ReVolt DC controller? With a kit including all the needed parts and things like printed circuit boards etc? This would be AWESOME! And we can work together to optimise the software (appreciating that parameters will vary for each motor different users connect to the controller).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> For some reason this thread reminds me of Tesseract's Socratic seminar on building an alternator controller. Good news for the AC crowd?


Y'all sure love reading into the proverbial tea leaves and cloud formations, dontcha?

There's no secret purpose to my starting this thread (a la the Rosicrucians or the Knights Templar, etc.); I'm just trying to accumulate the collected wisdom/knowledge (and as little conjecture as possible, ahem...) about these motors just in case others might find them to be useful. I certainly don't have any interest in them except as items to - eventually - be sold. Some of my motivation is public-spirited in that I am hoping better-informed decisions will be made concerning these motors by those who are interested in them. After all, had I known the motors with the helical gear on them were useless without the matching AT1200 gearbox I probably would have sent them all to the scrapyard in MA, rather than pay to ship them all the way back to FL (only to then scrap them, as seems likely unless I can find the person who won the lot containing several AT1200 gearboxes).


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

tylerwatts said:


> TheSGC
> If these motors are rewound for 22kW amd the agreed view is that you can over-speed an AC motor safely 4x its ratings that presents a potential* 88kW* peak, provided sufficient cooling allows this to be maintained for a useable period, say 20-30s aceleration (depending what you're accelerating and how fast...) which means a dual motor setup with the reduction gearboxes would provide excellent performance!
> 
> Also, would you be sharing the controller design you intend to use with this motor? Is there any chance of an open source AC controller along the lines of the Open ReVolt DC controller? With a kit including all the needed parts and things like printed circuit boards etc? This would be AWESOME! And we can work together to optimise the software (appreciating that parameters will vary for each motor different users connect to the controller).


I know the AC24LS is 15 KW cont in Delay without fan cooling and I was told by an Azure employee with fan cooling it will do 22 KW. In Wye mode and 312v its 20 KW continuous without fan cooling. 

The biggest performance issue is that these were never wound to run off a 144VDC. They were designed for 156v but many people only use them at 144v and at that voltage the performance is rather pathetic. I'm working on a fleet of Solectria Forces right now using ACgtx20 motors and UMOC440 controllers that the students were using at 144 volts and the drive was awful. The UMOC440 has 200+ volt ratings on them so I'm going to bump it up by a lot.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Tess
Don't scrap them, I'm sure there are enough enginuitive individuals who could use them! And I'd love a couple if in deed we could find the gearboxes also.

SGC
Please keep us informed of your findings. I'm very keen to hear how a small voltage increase can offer a substantial performance improvement!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

tylerwatts said:


> Tess
> Don't scrap them, I'm sure there are enough enginuitive individuals who could use them! And I'd love a couple if in deed we could find the gearboxes also.
> 
> SGC
> Please keep us informed of your findings. I'm very keen to hear how a small voltage increase can offer a substantial performance improvement!



My uncle and I were playing with the motor this afternoon and we found that with a simple change from Delta to Wye the operating voltage does indeed work to 312 VDC. This gives a rated 20 KW cont and easily 60 KW peak for a few seconds. The trick is getting an inverter to handle that. I have one of the UMOCs rated to 47 KW peak, which is surprising low for the components in it.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> My uncle and I were playing with the motor this afternoon and we found that with a simple change from Delta to Wye the operating voltage does indeed work to 312 VDC. This gives a rated 20 KW cont and easily 60 KW peak for a few seconds. The trick is getting an inverter to handle that. I have one of the UMOCs rated to 47 KW peak, which is surprising low for the components in it.


A friend of mine got a few of the DMOC 645's in the auction, is that too much controller for one of these motors?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

rwaudio said:


> A friend of mine got a few of the DMOC 645's in the auction, is that too much controller for one of these motors?


It probably is too much at the default settings, but you can program the current limits and other settings IF you get your hands on the DMOC software.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

TheSGC said:


> IF you get your hands on the DMOC software.


The software and more information is available in yahoo group Solectria

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev/


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

TEV said:


> The software and more information is available in yahoo group Solectria
> 
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev/


Thanks, I'll give that a try!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

SGC
How do you switch the motors from Delta to Wye? Is it easy? Could the connections be changed to lower the voltage in Delta to what a Curtis could handle?
Got any pics please sir?!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

More pictures of the junction boxes and data plates:

EDIT - flipped picture of delta wired junction box around to match orientation of wye junction box picture.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The label on the AC24LS motor + AT1200 gearbox says Solectria on it, rather than AZD... The second pic is of the halfshaft port on the motor side of the gearbox. Sorry, but the combo is too heavy for me to pick up by myself and no one else was at the shop today so this is all your getting from me for now. Maybe theSGC will post some better/different pics (cough-cough)...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Tess
Those are great. So did you get some transmissions for these motors then? Are you selling any? What about controllers? SGC seemed to think the controllers were ocnservatively programmed and could be pushed more to give beter performance.

SGC
Any pics please sir?
Edit: Pics of inside the motor showing the series/paralleling of the phases and whether these could be reconnected to lower the mean VAC rating to say run the motors on Curtis controllers. I guess a new 150V Curtis could drive the motors in Delta. Would be good to know. Don't know when these controllers will be made available...


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm going to get better pictures soon, I'm waiting for some help to move it around, it's about 150 lbs! Tomorrow morning my brother and I will bring the motor combo to the basement and I'll get better pictures. I've been out for the past two days for Thanksgiving feasts, but I have some ideas coming about inverters to these motors.

The delta to wye wiring is pretty simple as you can see in Tesseract's photos. The bump up from 144 to 156 is pretty significant on these motors due to the torque curves. The bump from 156 to 312 is even better, but I am amazed how few of these setups were sold in the WYE setup. I'd love get my hands on the DMOC645 to test it out on this thing. If only I could get one for cheap $$$.....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Thanks Tess
> Those are great. So did you get some transmissions for these motors then? Are you selling any? What about controllers? SGC seemed to think the controllers were ocnservatively programmed and could be pushed more to give beter performance....


I currently own the following:

(10) AC24LS motors with helical gear on splined shaft and no drive end (DE) bearing. At least one is marked as wound in Delta. The lack of a DE bearing means these motors would need a custom mounting plate machined for them to be used with anything besides the AT1200 gearbox. 

(3) AC24LS motors with C-face and keyed shaft, wired in Wye.

(4) AC24LS motors with C-face and keyed shaft, wired in Delta.

(5) AC24LS motors + AT1200 gearbox, wired in Delta.

As I show in the pictures of the junction boxes (the filenames are descriptive, so hover your mouse over each one to see what is what) it appears possible to rewire from Delta to Wye or Wye to Delta at least once (ie - because some cutting and re-crimping will be required).

The Curtis 1238 should be able to drive these motors - at least in the Delta configuration - just fine, but, hey, I have no experience with these products so I can't say for sure.

I will be selling or scrapping all of these motors eventually, but haven't decided on pricing yet. Unless people are willing to pay more for them than I would receive in scrap value, plus extra for the headache of shipping them LTL truck freight, then I will simply scrap them. When it comes to charity, I only give to the Humane Society and the SPCA; everyone else can fend for themselves.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: Azure-Dynamics armatures*

Do you know if these motors were made with aluminum or copper buss bars in the rotor? 

Maybe Tesla is the only one making copper motors...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Tess I'm definately interested in 2 motor/trans combos in Delta! BUT i'm in the Uk and I imagine the hassle for you is going to be great. How would you ship to the UK? How much would make this worth your while to do for me please sir? And how about a C-face Delta motor? Best to ship them al together obviously.

May I ask what the scrap value of these are please?

Anyone in the UK wish to combine shipping on some of these beauties? I expect a motor/trans combo would drive a classis mini Very well!

Tess, did you get any controllers in your auction sir?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Tess I'm definately interested in 2 motor/trans combos in Delta! BUT i'm in the Uk and I imagine the hassle for you is going to be great. How would you ship to the UK? How much would make this worth your while to do for me please sir? And how about a C-face Delta motor? Best to ship them al together obviously.
> 
> May I ask what the scrap value of these are please?
> 
> ...


Gah... slow down with the questions!

To ship to the UK is no more hassle for me than anywhere else, but it will have to go ocean freight (and take several weeks) unless you want to pay serious amounts of cash (I estimate at least $1000) for air freight.

Two motors + gearbox fit on a standard pallet and you usually get charged by the pallet unless the weight is really high (this would not qualify as high weight).

I'm not sure about the pricing for the motors + gearbox. Nor for the C-face motors. The motors + gearbox are clearly valuable based on the inquiries I've been getting, the C-face motors much less so (dunno why - they seem more universally applicable), and the motors without the drive end bearing (ie - which require the gearbox, or a custom end plate be fabricated) are even less desirable and it is THOSE that I would likely scrap.

I do not know what the scrap value is.

I did not buy any controllers. I personally think they are crap, but, hey... don't let my opinion stop anyone else from having fun with them.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> I did not buy any controllers. I personally think they are crap, but, hey... don't let my opinion stop anyone else from having fun with them.


I really have to agree on that, I have 3 UMOC controllers sitting on my workbench and the first serious design flaw is the precharge circuit. According to the manual it takes 15 minutes PER MONTH the controller has not been last plugged into a battery pack to precharge. I had a 3 hour precharge this morning before I could even work on one of the inverters and get the serial com running....


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

I can take one motor if you are going to scrap them. I can pay scrap value + help recoup shipping cost from auction. I would prefer Wye one.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry Tess

As your interest shows, these'll move quickly and I don't want to lose out AGAIN! I'd prefer to run the motors on Curtis controllers as I can link them for AWD which is what I want. I'm more keen to know whether these are enough for my hoped performance or whether I' be better off with the Siemens setups EVTV is selling. Their prices are fantastic for what they're selling, but still no small amount of money! Though I could run just a Siemens motor through my existing transmission and have the same performance as my Diesel ICE. Decisions... I prefer the idea of 2 AC24s through single reductions using Curtis controllers, though I'd have to sort out some more advanced cooling method for them.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> ... According to the manual it takes 15 minutes PER MONTH the controller has not been last plugged into a battery pack to precharge. ...


That is just for reforming the dielectric on the electrolytic capacitors. Generally speaking, you don't need to do that unless the capacitors have not been exposed to their working voltage for more than a year or two... which, come to think of it, is probably the case here. At any rate, you can see if you absolutely need to do the reforming by checking the leakage current through them as you bring the voltage up. If it stays below the datasheet spec you can skip the long drawn out reforming process.




AntronX said:


> I can take one motor if you are going to scrap them. I can pay scrap value + help recoup shipping cost from auction. I would prefer Wye one.


The only motors I expect to have to scrap are the ones that do not have a drive end bearing, and my clever plan to deal with up to (5) of those is to give them away along with a motor + gearbox purchase, so you have a drop-in replacement motor for free. No one can really use them otherwise without making a new drive end mounting plate.




tylerwatts said:


> ...As your interest shows, these'll move quickly and I don't want to lose out AGAIN! I'd prefer to run the motors on Curtis controllers as I can link them for AWD which is what I want. I'm more keen to know whether these are enough for my hoped performance or whether I' be better off with the Siemens setups EVTV is selling.


The Siemens motors look like very nice machines, but you will need at least a 150kW inverter to do them justice. 

And not to be blunt, but... if you dilly-dally too long trying to figure out which motor is best, etc., you might find the choice has been taken away from you (again!). I've already received more PMs and emails to buy these motor/gearbox combos than are available to sell...


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

*Re: Azure-Dynamics armatures*



kennybobby said:


> Do you know if these motors were made with aluminum or copper buss bars in the rotor?


My guess is that unless they scream about the rotor being copper (it's a fair bit more expensive), then it's aluminum.

Some SEW industrial motors have copper rotors; there are a few conversions using those (wound for 100 VAC) with Tritium Wavesculptor 200 inverters.


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The only motors I expect to have to scrap are the ones that do not have a drive end bearing, and my clever plan to deal with up to (5) of those is to give them away along with a motor + gearbox purchase, so you have a drop-in replacement motor for free. No one can really use them otherwise without making a new drive end mounting plate.


Yea, I would be milling custom end plate that would also function as transmission adapter plate. If you have one left over, I can drive by to pick it up, as well as few of those IGBTs too.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> That is just for reforming the dielectric on the electrolytic capacitors. Generally speaking, you don't need to do that unless the capacitors have not been exposed to their working voltage for more than a year or two... which, come to think of it, is probably the case here. At any rate, you can see if you absolutely need to do the reforming by checking the leakage current through them as you bring the voltage up. If it stays below the datasheet spec you can skip the long drawn out reforming process.


Yeah, I think these controller haven't seen voltage in upwards of 6 years, maybe more. I'm also not surprised the kids said these didn't work, they are using 144 volts in the cars and these are programmed for 165v minimum. I'm in the middle of building adapters to test the inverters, they use D25 connections for the controls and a DB9 for the encoders.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/62245_4309608576199_922510911_n.jpg

Got one of them up and running strong on a Curtis 1238. Swapping out the AC20 for an AC24LS, going to try to get some more EV grin in before it gets too cold!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Remotecontact said:


> Got one of them up and running strong on a Curtis 1238.


Huh. I thought that having only 3/4 of the nominal 156 V (assuming delta connection) would make it rather weak. But you have 11/8 of the DMOC-445's [edit2: was "nominal"] 400 A peak current (or 13/8 if the 650 A controller), which would rather make up for it, if the motor doesn't melt.

I guess your motor will get plenty of cooling when operating at speed, but it might still overheat with stop/start low speed traffic, like a traffic jam up a hill.

Edit: you should check that the V/Hz is about right, or change it, to avoid saturating the iron, or underpowering the field. My apologies if you have all this covered.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Coulomb said:


> Huh. I thought that having only 3/4 of the nominal 156 V (assuming delta connection) would make it rather weak. But you have 11/8 of the nominal 400 A peak current (or 13/8 if the 650 A controller), which would rather make up for it, if the motor doesn't melt.
> 
> I guess your motor will get plenty of cooling when operating at speed, but it might still overheat with stop/start low speed traffic, like a traffic jam up a hill.
> 
> Edit: you should check that the V/Hz is about right, or change it, to avoid saturating the iron, or underpowering the field. My apologies if you have all this covered.


The 400a "peak amp" rating is motor side, in the datasheet you can see that the max battery side current is 268a. The Curtis can easily pull 650a battery side. I'll be applying more than double the current. There also really is no true "nominal" voltage rating for these motors. They're wound by Baldor for 40v in delta. The 156v is Azure's recommended overvoltage. It's all about continuous vs intermittent. This bike has over a year of daily driver electric use with the AC-20 package. That motor is much lighter and never really got dangerously hot even under hard riding, thanks to low vehicle weight and a large 6.5:1 ratio. 

Those parameters were checked and taken into account, probably still a bit of tweaking left before the motor is completely "dialed in".


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Remotecontact said:


> The 400a "peak amp" rating is motor side, in the datasheet you can see that the max battery side current is 268a.


Wow, those DMOC-445 controllers must be weak. I did see those figures, but it didn't dawn on me that they should not be so different.



> The Curtis can easily pull 650a battery side. I'll be applying more than double the current.


Err, double the battery current, but at around 3/4 the voltage (compared to 156 V, which I agree is fairly arbitrary). So nearly double the power.



> There also really is no true "nominal" voltage rating for these motors. They're wound by Baldor for 40v in delta.


I had heard the 70 V figure; I assumed that was delta, but obviously it's wye/star.

Sorry, I really used the wrong term above when I said "nominal"; I'll change it.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

AntronX said:


> Yea, I would be milling custom end plate that would also function as transmission adapter plate. If you have one left over, I can drive by to pick it up, as well as few of those IGBTs too.


It seems to me you could use one of the C-face motors as a template to design a new mounting plate, no?



Remotecontact said:


> Got one of them up and running strong on a Curtis 1238. Swapping out the AC20 for an AC24LS, going to try to get some more EV grin in before it gets too cold!


Heh... I figured the 1238 would do alright with these things. Nice work, RC.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> ...I had heard the 70 V figure; I assumed that was delta, but obviously it's wye/star...


See post 20 by me which shows the data plates and wiring junction boxes for each winding configuration. 40V/60Hz to reach 1760 RPM in Delta and 69V/60Hz to reach 1760 RPM in Wye (Star).

I can't tell for sure, but there appears to be enough excess wire in the junction box to rewire a Delta motor to Wye or vice-versa.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> See post 20 by me which shows the data plates and wiring junction boxes for each winding configuration.


Duh, right there on the nameplate. I have nowhere to hide from that one, except this pathetic excuse: it's too obvious!.


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## flyn_brian (Oct 21, 2012)

So how much for a motor? I'm not even going to need a gear box. I just don't want to see them scrapped.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

flyn_brian said:


> So how much for a motor? I'm not even going to need a gear box. I just don't want to see them scrapped.


I'd like to know this too. I've got an AC24 in my car, with an AT1200, and I'd love to get an LS in there - it's kinda like upgrading. 

The AC24 is decent in my Geo Metro (Refurbed Solectria Force) on 220V, delta - I'm running with a DMOC445.

BTW, I've got a spare gearbox that fits the AC24, as well as an ACgtx20 that I'd like to get rid of (has the adapter for the AC24...) 

Oh - and FYI - you can FedEx AC24s... I've done it before for $80, and they packaged it for me in foam.


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## Electroddy (Dec 29, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> It seems to me you could use one of the C-face motors as a template to design a new mounting plate, no?
> 
> YEP. Could also just wing it with a caliper and a lathe. The machining is the easy part.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

In order to not violate the terms of service here I am intentionally not discussing the sale of stuff in this thread. Send me a PM and I will give you the same price that I am giving everyone else, save the one lucky SOB who bought a motor + gearbox from me while I was still in MA before I knew they were actually desirable 

I will say that all of the motors + gearbox are spoken for.

otedawg: if you have spare AT1200 gearboxes that's what those orphaned motors with the helical gear mate to. I am selling those motors for just a bit over scrap value.

As for shipping the C-face motors, the boxes they are in say they weigh 97#, which is heavier than what standard FedEx will allow, IIRC. Or maybe it is UPS that has a strict limit of 70# for a non-freight package?


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> As for shipping the C-face motors, the boxes they are in say they weigh 97#, which is heavier than what standard FedEx will allow, IIRC. Or maybe it is UPS that has a strict limit of 70# for a non-freight package?


Fedex ships up to 150lb http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/packaging/GrlPkgGuidelines_fxcom.pdf 

pm sent...

I've only got one spare gearbox.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

I've got over a hundred of these motors and plan on scrapping half. Getting scrap quotes today. PM me if you want to buy some a little higher than scrap price.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

For what it is worth, I looked at these motor/controllers 4 years ago when I was evaluating motors/controllers for my conversion. I exchanged several emails with Beth at Azure on them. They were fairly popular for Chevy/Geo Metro conversions then, should be able to find some on the evalbum. 

At that time the minimum operating voltage was 144V for the delta connected motors, but Beth said they didn't perform well at 144V and strongly recommended 156V. I generated torque-VEHICLE speed curves for both the delta and wye versions with recommended voltages and estimated acceleration time to 60 mph for my Suzuki Swift. The delta was a dog, the wye ok, but not as good as the (later) AC50 from HPEVS - which Jeffrey considers a dog, so no wonder he practically gave away the first Azure.  

The wye version has less torque at the lower end than the AC50/Curtis 1238-7501 with nominal 115V pack (66 verses 90 ft-lb - 106 ft-lb with 1238-7601 controller), but holds peak torque to higher rpm due to the higher voltage (53 versus 40 ft-lb at 6k rpm), so it had a bit better acceleration at speeds over 55 mph (at least on paper), but not much, and it didn't make up for the lower acceleration at lower speeds. They were also quite expensive, so I purchased one of the first 10 AC50s made. 

The above was with the car's transmission. With the 1200 gear box they are both dogs imo. The Swift is about 2260 lb. They would work well in a lighter vehicle. Anyone really interested might contact people with one of these in a car on the evalbum to get actual performance in a vehicle.

Torque speed curves from Azure documentation 4 years ago:


----------



## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

tomofreno,
I've got one of those type cars. It's not great, but at 156V, it'll get you around town. 

My setup:
AC24
AT1200
Geo Metro 4D

I average 320Wh/Mi, and on a 156V 100AH pack, my range to 80%DOD was 45Mi. Acceleration is okay with one person in the car - 0-60 in 25sec, with 20-45 in 8ish sec. Send any questions my way.

Otedawg


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

otedawg said:


> tomofreno,
> I've got one of those type cars. It's not great, but at 156V, it'll get you around town.
> 
> My setup:
> ...


 Thanks for the data! I thought I estimated 0 to 60 mph at 20-some sec, but wasn't sure so didn't say. For comparison my Swift does 0 to 60 mph in 16 sec, and used about 216 Wh/mile from the wall over the first two years (EKM meter at input top charger). Looks like it will be closer to 211 over this past year. I would guess ave speed is probably around high 40's - about half is 50 to 65 mph, other half 30 to 40 mph. What matters of course is if the car suits you. 

Another option for those who desire more speed is 2 of the Azure motors - would give about 133 ft-lb peak and and 106 ft-lb at 6k rpm.


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Hey everybody, got tired of replying to posts so just check out the ebay link:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345

Thanks!


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Remotecontact

Why do you state in the eBay auction that the motors are capable of 70kW? I understood they were known to handle 40kW, with less nominal power, around 30kW with decent air flow for cooling.

Can anyone correct one of us please?

Also, shame you can't offer international shipping, those are very nice motors!


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Remotecontact
> 
> Why do you state in the eBay auction that the motors are capable of 70kW? I understood they were known to handle 40kW, with less nominal power, around 30kW with decent air flow for cooling.
> 
> ...


I say 70kw because I've pulled 70kw from one of them on a Curtis controller. Send me a PM, shipping internationally is not going to be cheap.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> I say 70kw because I've pulled 70kw from one of them on a Curtis controller.


Hi Remote,

Would you tell more? Specifically, how did you tune the Curtis? And what was the method used to determine the 70kW? I am very interested and I am sure others here, like mizlplix, are also. He is trying to use the Curtis with a different motor. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81413 

Thanks,

major


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Would you ship to Calgary, Alberta? And, are these the C-face motors or do they have the AT1200 mounting interface?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

TigerNut said:


> Would you ship to Calgary, Alberta? And, are these the C-face motors or do they have the AT1200 mounting interface?


I might be interested in a motor as well if you are bringing one up to Calgary, split the shipping cost?


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Remote,
> 
> Would you tell more? Specifically, how did you tune the Curtis? And what was the method used to determine the 70kW? I am very interested and I am sure others here, like mizlplix, are also. He is trying to use the Curtis with a different motor. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81413
> 
> ...



Yup, please put up dyno graph in this configuration too. 
Thanks


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> Hey everybody, got tired of replying to posts so just check out the ebay link:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345


Holy mackerel... I should have listed my same AC24LS motors on ebay, judging by the number of sales you've had (11 in 3 days) and that you are getting $200 each for them!

However, I wonder if the brisk sales are the result of people mistakenly assuming this motor has shaft bearings in both end bells? Has anyone on ebay asked you about that?


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> However, I wonder if the brisk sales are the result of people mistakenly assuming this motor has shaft bearings in both end bells? Has anyone on ebay asked you about that?


Well, TigerNut did ask the question about three posts ago.

I'd sure like to know the answer too; it affects the usefulness of the motors somewhat.

I suppose that at $200, (edit: really $300 with shipping) some may be thinking "how hard can it be?" (to figure out some sort of bearing / support or to copy the C-face metalwork). The custom metalwork could easily double the cost of the motor, and delay their use, but it only takes one enterprising person to figure it out and make the information public to make these a good deal (not a great deal, as they first seem).

There is the risk that no-one will publish this information, so then they are back to scrap value, plus shipping and hassle.

Tesseract: maybe you're just too darned honest?  (Just kidding, obviously). Then again, if you or anyone else figures out a good solution and publishes it, then you should be able to sell your motors for a fair bit more than $200, and nobody has to say the "s" word again. And honesty will have been the best policy, in financial as well as moral terms.

This AEVA post indicates that RemoteContact is a college student way over his head purchasing these; I don't think he's out to scam anyone, just to pay off his debt. (Though Coulomb calculates 100 x $200... wow  )


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Well, TigerNut did ask the question about three posts ago.


Yep, but as this question - among others - has yet to be answered I asked it again to emphasize that it is still pertinent/relevant to the discussion at hand.



Coulomb said:


> I suppose that at $200, (edit: really $300 with shipping) some may be thinking "how hard can it be?" (to figure out some sort of bearing / support or to copy the C-face metalwork)....


That was my thought as well, as I also received (7) of the C-face motors so I could easily borrow one to map out a new end bell for those motors without the drive end bearing needed for "standalone" use. I may yet do this as I still have (5) of the latter motors in stock after a potential sale fell through. Who knows, maybe all those people that buy RemoteContact's motors will end up buying end bells from me... 



Coulomb said:


> There is the risk that no-one will publish this information, so then they are back to scrap value, plus shipping and hassle.


Yep, but scrap value is fairly high - approximately $60 per motor in my area, with over half of that coming from the cable assembly alone! - while the relative "effort" required to scrap them is very low. Once you go to the trouble to list the motors on ebay, answer questions about them, pay all the fees, box them up so they will survive transit, deal with the inevitable complaints about the one that UPS allowed to fall off a conveyor belt, etc., making anything less than $100 on top of the scrap value seems kind of pointless.



Coulomb said:


> Tesseract: maybe you're just too darned honest?  (Just kidding, obviously)....


I sometimes wonder that myself... especially when I see the likes of PZigouras hocking his fake motor controllers on ebay. 



Coulomb said:


> This AEVA post indicates that RemoteContact is a college student way over his head purchasing these; I don't think he's out to scam anyone, just to pay off his debt. (Though Coulomb calculates 100 x $200... wow  )


Oh, I'm not suggesting he is trying to scam anyone and, in fact, I wish him well with his venture. My main motivation for wanting him to answer the various questions posed to him on this page of the thread are purely selfish - if this motor really can take 70kW and people really are willing to pay $200 each for them on ebay then that is what I am going to list my remaining (5) for...


----------



## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

Worth to note also there is a no refund policy on those motors so buyer beware


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Holy mackerel... I should have listed my same AC24LS motors on ebay, judging by the number of sales you've had (11 in 3 days) and that you are getting $200 each for them!
> 
> However, I wonder if the brisk sales are the result of people mistakenly assuming this motor has shaft bearings in both end bells? Has anyone on ebay asked you about that?


Yeah, people have asked and they were told they're getting a splined shaft. Worth noting that it's very possible to machine the splined shaft down to a 7/8" keyed shaft if you have a mill/lathe.


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

no gas said:


> Worth to note also there is a no refund policy on those motors so buyer beware


Bruce your negativity is appreciated but that's entirely correct!

To the general public I do not want to deal with the returns. For the forum folk and people who will actually use them, I am on here and Elmoto.net quite a bit and I love seeing cars/bikes converted so I would help and would likely sell another motor at cost (which isn't much different from the sale price) if I actually sent you a lemon (chances are low because I inspect each one before it ships).


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You mean for that pricing we don't get a full warranty, and tech support


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

major said:


> Hi Remote,
> 
> Would you tell more? Specifically, how did you tune the Curtis? And what was the method used to determine the 70kW? I am very interested and I am sure others here, like mizlplix, are also. He is trying to use the Curtis with a different motor. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81413
> 
> ...


Because I watched Lord of the Rings recently:

One does not simply tune an Ac Curtis controller.....

Really though it isn't as bad as walking into Mordor. I started with the thermistor, had to do some digging and guesswork to find the correct type. Then the encoder type. The encoder on the AC24LS is actually a really cool thing. The rear bearing contains the encoder! It's a really slick off the shelf SKF part. I'm even thinking of swapping the external encoder in my HPEVS AC-20 with one of these. Once those parameters were in I set the current limit very low and honestly just messed around with the settings. It was kind of fun. I got it to a place that seemed pretty close. Knowing I was in the ballpark I then ran the curtis auto-tune routine. I could have skipped all of the previous steps and gone straight into auto-tune but it I like a small amount of experimentation. I suspect that without a dyno it's difficult to really get it dialed in perfectly, but it seems fine now for most applications. 

The more people use them the better the tuning will get, luckily we can email tuning to each other.


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> You mean for that pricing we don't get a full warranty, and tech support


Could not have said it better myself.


----------



## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

Time answers all questions


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> The more people use them the better the tuning will get, luckily we can email tuning to each other.


Great. I'll be doing this in a week or two. Please send me the tuning parameters and encoder pinout (which color wires from the SKF go to which pins on the Curtis). I've used the sensor bearings before. Which size is it or what ppr? I'll be happy to return with the parameters I find. Which Curtis 1238 model did you use? What voltage?

Now we're getting somewhere 

Oh, you glanced over the 70 kW question. How did you read that?

Thanks,

major


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

major said:


> Great. I'll be doing this in a week or two. Please send me the tuning parameters and encoder pinout (which color wires from the SKF go to which pins on the Curtis). I've used the sensor bearings before. Which size is it or what ppr? I'll be happy to return with the parameters I find. Which Curtis 1238 model did you use? What voltage?
> 
> Now we're getting somewhere
> 
> ...


Yup! I run a 1238-7601 (650a) in my bike with a 30s 40ah 30C lipo pack. I routinely pull 70kw from my (much smaller) AC-20 and it's a champ. The 70kw number is really from the controller. I'm also talking about power numbers in peak terms. With much better thermal mass and a proper finned case (unlike the AC-20) it should be able to sustain the same power for a much longer duration or sustain a higher power for the same duration all else being equal.


----------



## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

ADAM I GOT SOME OF THOSE BEARING CHK OUT EBAY
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170952765215


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> Yup! I run a 1238-7601 (650a) in my bike with a 30s 40ah 30C lipo pack. I routinely pull 70kw from my (much smaller) AC-20 and it's a champ. The 70kw number is really from the controller.


Thanks for clearing that up. This does differ from your earlier post: 



Remotecontact said:


> I say 70kw because I've pulled 70kw from one of them on a Curtis controller.


I think we realize that you are talking peak.



Remotecontact said:


> I'm also talking about power numbers in peak terms. With much better thermal mass and a proper finned case (unlike the AC-20) it should be able to sustain the same power for a much longer duration or sustain a higher power for the same duration all else being equal.


I might point out that the AC-20 is ventilated fan cooled and the AC24LS is TENV so your assumption about sustaining power may be invalid. But this doesn't affect the peak. 

I am just trying to clear up some facts. I suspect that the AC24LS motor could do 70 kW at some voltage and frequency with some controller with some parameter tuning. I'd just like to know what those conditions are. 

Thanks,

major


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Doh! Nevermind.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> Yeah, people have asked and they were told they're getting a splined shaft. Worth noting that it's very possible to machine the splined shaft down to a 7/8" keyed shaft if you have a mill/lathe.


That's not exactly what I asked... Rather, I am very curious to know if the people who have purchased these motors from you on ebay already knew or were otherwise warned that these motors do not have a typical end bell on the output shaft with a bearing to center the shaft and support radial loads. 

More specifically, these motors are intended to be used with the AT1200 gearbox. There is a bearing on the shaft (that is held in place by the plate bolted to the front of the motor), but it is supposed to fit into a recess in the gearbox.

In other words, this motor is useless without doing one of the following:

1. Machine a new end bell to hold a standard permanently lubricated, sealed bearing to center and support the shaft (ie - like the C-face version of these motors).

2. Machine a recess into the motor to transmission adapter plate to accommodate the bearing that comes with the motor, but which is intended to mate with the AT1200 gearbox.

3. Finally, mate the motor to the matching AT1200 gearbox.

Also, I notice that your motors don't come with the 3ph. wiring harness attached. My understanding is that this harness was attached *after* the motors were rewound for a lower voltage. Have you looked at the data plate on the motor to see if that is the case?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Also, I notice that your motors don't come with the 3ph. wiring harness attached. My understanding is that this harness was attached *after* the motors were rewound for a lower voltage. Have you looked at the data plate on the motor to see if that is the case?


That was what I was told by an ex AZD/Solectria employee. I was told that the motors come from Baldor as 5.5 KW cont. motors running on 220v but then get rewound in MA to 40/70VAC with better wire and balanced up to 13K RPM (12K max spec'd). Then they get the 3 phase cables thrown on them.

This weekend I am going to finally get going on my AC24LS and UMOC controllers as finals end Thursday.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> Yup! I run a 1238-7601 (650a) in my bike with a 30s 40ah 30C lipo pack. I routinely pull 70kw from my (much smaller) AC-20 and it's a champ. The 70kw number is really from the controller. I'm also talking about power numbers in peak terms. With much better thermal mass and a proper finned case (unlike the AC-20) it should be able to sustain the same power for a much longer duration or sustain a higher power for the same duration all else being equal.


70kW* input*power at 0.5pf? Makes more sense now


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

That's 70kw DC battery side.


Stiive said:


> 70kW* input*power at 0.5pf? Makes more sense now


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

TheSGC said:


> That was what I was told by an ex AZD/Solectria employee. I was told that the motors come from Baldor as 5.5 KW cont. motors running on 220v but then get rewound in MA to 40/70VAC with better wire and balanced up to 13K RPM (12K max spec'd). Then they get the 3 phase cables thrown on them.
> 
> This weekend I am going to finally get going on my AC24LS and UMOC controllers as finals end Thursday.


The motors come as custom builds from Baldor already rewound for lower voltage operation. I've spun one up to 8K rpm and noticed no balancing issues.


----------



## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> That's not exactly what I asked... Rather, I am very curious to know if the people who have purchased these motors from you on ebay already knew or were otherwise warned that these motors do not have a typical end bell on the output shaft with a bearing to center the shaft and support radial loads.
> 
> More specifically, these motors are intended to be used with the AT1200 gearbox. There is a bearing on the shaft (that is held in place by the plate bolted to the front of the motor), but it is supposed to fit into a recess in the gearbox.
> 
> ...


Most of my motors have both a splined shaft and an acceptable front end bell with a bearing. My guess is that this is how Azure recieved motors before making them suitable to the AT1200 gearbox. My motors also do not have the phase wires attached. I do have them available though if people are interested. 

The motors were custom builds by baldor for low voltage. Azure did no rewinding and had no capability to do so as shown by the auction. They only changed the termination, which is easily changed.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe posting pictures would help.

I've asked several times in the last couple weeks, to no avail.


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

frodus said:


> Maybe posting pictures would help.
> 
> I've asked several times in the last couple weeks, to no avail.


Lol, they're coming tonight Travis I promise!


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

And here they are!

http://s260.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdamBercu/library/AC24LS


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> And here they are!
> 
> http://s260.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdamBercu/library/AC24LS


Nothing is there


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

worth noting the 4th pic (shaft end )in the series is appearantly not the same motor (note that the end bell has 4 holes not three) as in the first pic and it is a end bell for a true c faced motor not a turned down shaft ummmmm


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

bait and switch


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The pics show up for me just fine. Looks like the exact same helical gear bolted onto a spline shaft with the bearing meant to fit into a recess on the gearbox. RemoteContact says it is possible to put a standard bearing on the shaft that fits into the stock end bell so I asked him to post a picture showing that, as it would significantly enhance the utility of these motors.

Then again, I only have 2 of them left now, so... too late for me to reap the benefit of an increased selling price this might bring...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Nothing is there


I see pictures.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

major said:


> Nothing is there


Are you using Noscript? I am and I had to enable (temporarily whitelist) the site before I saw anything.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I see pictures.


I don't know. Maybe you need to be a facebucketphototwit member or something. I get no pics.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Are you using Noscript?


Not to my knowledge.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

major said:


> Not to my knowledge.


Oh. You would know. If you're using it, then just about every new site you go to you have to enable it, temporarily or not. It's a lot of work, but it does save me from malicious sites I didn't intend to visit.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> I don't know. Maybe you need to be a facebucketphototwit member or something. I get no pics.


Did you try a different browser? Works for me in both Firefox and Chrome.
Can you see this?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Did you try a different browser? Works for me in both Firefox and Chrome.
> Can you see this?


I used Firefox and IE. No luck. I can see your posted photo and usually do not have trouble seeing posted pics. Thanks for the look-see


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Works in Chrome.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I think Al Bullock got a lot of HPEV/Curtis stuff in a buy-out deal.

Anyone needing this stuff (at about half new price) might give him a call.

(No I am not an employee or relative....LOL)

Just trying to steer people to the right places.

Like a 1238 to run their AC24....

Miz


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> I think Al Bullock got a lot of HPEV/Curtis stuff in a buy-out deal.
> 
> Anyone needing this stuff (at about half new price) might give him a call.
> 
> ...


Who is Al Bullock?


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Hey dudes, this is not a bait and switch. I machined that shaft down to 7/8" to see if it was possible. It wasn't bad at all. Getting quotes from some machine shops so I can sell more usable motors. The retrofit service may add $150 to the motor but I think even then it's a huge value. Any interest?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Remotecontact said:


> Hey dudes, this is not a bait and switch. I machined that shaft down to 7/8" to see if it was possible. ...


Adam... the reason for the controversy here is you have pictures of two different motors on photobucket: the c-face type, shown in pic 4, which has a keyed shaft and 4 mounting holes on the end bell and is totally usable as-is without further modification, and the type with a helical gear on the shaft, 3 mounting holes but no shaft support bearing, so it is not usable as-is unless one has the matching gearbox.

No one is saying that you can't machine the splined shaft down. That's a red herring.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It looks to me in the pic above that I'm seeing a bearing in the housing, though without a seal. No?


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Adam... the reason for the controversy here is you have pictures of two different motors on photobucket: the c-face type, shown in pic 4, which has a keyed shaft and 4 mounting holes on the end bell and is totally usable as-is without further modification, and the type with a helical gear on the shaft, 3 mounting holes but no shaft support bearing, so it is not usable as-is unless one has the matching gearbox.
> 
> No one is saying that you can't machine the splined shaft down. That's a red herring.


Sorry, just uploaded all of the pics. For sale on ebay are only the splined motors. Some with the helical gear, some not. If you're interested in a C-face motor, PM me.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

How deep is the bearing in the end plate of the motor? How thick is the end plate? Can it be machined/drilled and reamed to recess the bearing further/completely?


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

Keep some perspective on these. I'm selling them for about 90% off new. I am *not* Azure dynamics. This is not my job. All of the time I'm spending on support for these is purely for the benefit of the community. They're cheap enough to buy one, and if it doesn't work, throw it away or scrap it.

If I wanted quick cash I would have scrapped all of these. I'd make a profit even at that. The engineer in me could never do that though, knowing the potential of these motors. Also, I have geopolitical reasons for advancing the EV industry. 100 extremely cheap motors could hopefully get 100 more EVs on the road sooner. That's a much larger effect on the big picture than me driving my EV could ever be. 

If you want to buy one, great. If you want to spend 3K for an AC35 (instead of *ten* of these), that's totally cool. I actually love the guys at HPEVS. Their support is by far the best I've found in the entire DIY EV market and I routinely trust my life to their products (@100mph on two wheels) . It may take some TLC to get it one of these AC24LS's running perfectly but honestly, isn't this *DIY*electriccar after all?


//rant


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Hi,
so... how thick is the end plate? 
I don't expect support for the motor, just some details to justify a purchase. Keep in mind, I'm in Australia and shipping will be by far the biggest cost.

Cheers


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi Adam. I see this is where all the conversation regarding these motors is happening.

I will post my remaining questions here:
*1)* Photo 1 (the one with the helical gear) has the bearing mounted on the shaft, not not recessed at all in to the end bell. Therefore the shaft at this end is free to move radially and would need to be restrained in order to run the motor. Is this correct?

*2)* Photo 3 (the splined shaft) appears to be the same situation as above, but without the helical gear or shaft-mounted bearing. Again, it appears the shaft is free to move radially. Is this correct, or is there a bearing installed inside the end-bell that isn't visible as your quote below seems to be saying.



Remotecontact said:


> Most of my motors have both a splined shaft and an acceptable front end bell with a bearing.


Photo 4 shows the junction box. It appears to be a three terminal box, wye wound with the neutral brought out. You mention that the termination is easily changed.



Remotecontact said:


> The motors were custom builds by baldor for low voltage. Azure did no rewinding and had no capability to do so as shown by the auction. They only changed the termination, which is easily changed.


*3)* Were you saying that the termination can be easily changed by us, or was changed by AZD to suit specific applications. If the latter, are your motors all wound in Wye (69v)? If there are more terminals in the junction box, a zoomed-out photo would help clarify.

*4)* Lastly, are the SKF encoder bearings installed in these motors? In the armature photo, it appears there is one installed, but this is also a C-face motor.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

These motors are something I might be interested in, but it's dificult to go through all these pages of discussion to determine their exact specifications. The ebay page has very little information:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345

The Azure Dynamics website has fairly complete data, but I don't know if it really applies to the LS version:
http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC24_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf

Even that specification is incomplete. It does not specify the number of poles, nominal operating frequency, voltage, and RPM. I come up with something like 17 HP (13 kW) and 23 lbft (31 Nm) torque at 4000 RPM. For 156 VDC this is about 110 VAC. The missing parameters are number of poles or operating frequency. Without that, it is difficult to determine how to drive the motor. The specs seem to be for the package with the controller.

This information (and other items as discussed here) should be on the eBay description page or at least on a separately linked spec sheet.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> These motors are something I might be interested in, but it's dificult to go through all these pages of discussion to determine their exact specifications. The ebay page has very little information:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345
> 
> The Azure Dynamics website has fairly complete data, but I don't know if it really applies to the LS version:
> ...


All that data is visible on the box label photo in the gallery. 60Hz, 40/69v, 1760rpm (4pole). I've asked about the voltages and ability to wire for 40 or 69v in my post above. I agree, it seems like it's been unusually difficult to get an idea of what's actually being sold.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

bigmouse said:


> ...
> *1)* Photo 1 (the one with the helical gear) has the bearing mounted on the shaft, not not recessed at all in to the end bell. Therefore the shaft at this end is free to move radially and would need to be restrained in order to run the motor. Is this correct?


That is correct. If the motor has a helical gear on the shaft then the bearing that is present is intended to support that shaft against radial loads when inserted into a matching recess on something else (in this case, the AT1200 gear box).



bigmouse said:


> *2)* Photo 3 (the splined shaft) appears to be the same situation as above, but without the helical gear or shaft-mounted bearing. Again, it appears the shaft is free to move radially. Is this correct, or is there a bearing installed inside the end-bell that isn't visible as your quote below seems to be saying.


Also correct. The helical gear can be removed from the splined shaft but that takes the support bearing with it. The shaft/rotor is then free to flop around inside the stator.



bigmouse said:


> *3)* Were you saying that the termination can be easily changed by us, or was changed by AZD to suit specific applications. If the latter, are your motors all wound in Wye (69v)? If there are more terminals in the junction box, a zoomed-out photo would help clarify.


*I* said that there appears to be enough wire in the junction box to change the winding configuration from delta (which appears to be the default for this particular style of AC24LS motor) to wye _at least once_. I stress the latter caveat because you will need to cut the crimp lugs off the wires to separate the windings to change from wye to delta or vice versa.



bigmouse said:


> *4)* Lastly, are the SKF encoder bearings installed in these motors? In the armature photo, it appears there is one installed, but this is also a C-face motor.


Yes. Or there is an encoder/resolver/tachometer of some sort installed in the end bell opposite the shaft end, along with a cute little noise filter box that says worlds about the EMC performance of AZD's inverters... 

Hopefully this helps clear up any confusion.

As of now I have (2) of these particular motors left and (1) each of the pre-wired delta and wye C-face version of these motors. I have sold all of the motor + gearbox combos.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Thanks Tesseract. I figured that was the case. Looks like I'll be giving these motors a miss. I'm sure someone will find a good way to use these in a car, and at those prices, it's certainly worth it for somebody local and keen. But it's just not worth shipping any to Australia in that state.

Adam, I hope you find it feasible to have custom parts machined up to make these motors usable. If you can make that work out, you'll have pallets of very desirable product on your hands. Best of luck!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> ....intended to support that shaft against radial loads.....


and axial forces


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> These motors are something I might be interested in, but it's dificult to go through all these pages of discussion to determine their exact specifications. The ebay page has very little information:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160931785345....


Post #20 shows pictures of the data plates and of the wiring in the junction boxes.

It is taking a monumental amount of effort on my part to not comment any further on your complaint that this thread is too difficult to read in exchange for buying these motors for about 10% of their list price...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Stiive said:


> How deep is the bearing in the end plate of the motor? How thick is the end plate? Can it be machined/drilled and reamed to recess the bearing further/completely?


It does not appear you can mill the existing end bell on the motors with the helical gear and splined shaft to accept a standard shaft bearing; you would need to make a new end bell.

Please refer to picture 4 in the first post of this thread which shows the shaft with the helical gear (and bearing, which rides on the gear, not the shaft itself) removed.


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

could not have been stated any better Jeff ..


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

I have delta wired, spline shaft motor (Thanks to Jeff). You can rewire it to Wye without any wire crimping. See attached pictures.

The shaft bearing size is 72mm OD x 36mm ID. 
A 36mm x 27mm ring will be needed for this bearing to match splined shaft diameter if spline gear to be removed. There are 72mm size bearings available online, but with different internal diameter. 

Front end bell has a recess where bearing drops in - keeping it centered and fixed in place against radial loads. There is also the spacer ring behind the bearing. It presses against it to prevent outward axial movement of the rotor. 

I think its possible to machine the cover plate for the bearing and affix it to existing front end bell. It's purpose to keep bearing from sliding out from end bell recess and to couple rotor outward axial load to the end bell.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Post #20 shows pictures of the data plates and of the wiring in the junction boxes.
> 
> It is taking a monumental amount of effort on my part to not comment any further on your complaint that this thread is too difficult to read in exchange for buying these motors for about 10% of their list price...


I'm trying to be helpful by pointing out that anyone other than readers of this forum need more information to decide on making a purchase from the eBay site. It would be easy (and highly advisable) for the OP to add the specifications, and/or add a link to the Azure Dynamics site and also to this thread. Also, the claim of over 70kW is not supported by the documentation I found. It is 17 kW continuous at 4700 RPM at the maximum DC bus voltage of 336 VDC so unless it can withstand more than 700 VDC there can be no more power from overclocking to the maximum 11000 RPM powered. Continuous torque is 38 and peak torque is 82, so you can only get a little over 2x from higher current. Thus the 47 kW peak power as listed is a bit suspect, although believable. 

The 70kW claim really needs to be explained, or else it should not be published in the eBay description. The eBay buyer protection states:



> eBay Buyer Protection covers items purchased on eBay with eligible payment methods that are not received or _not as described in the listing_.


[edit] I just read over this entire thread and found that it was actually started by Tesseract, who has some of the same motors and posted more complete specs from the get-go. It is still confusing. The Solectria nameplate shows 40/69 VAC at 60 Hz and 5 HP (3.7 kW). It seems quite stretch to get 70kW or almost 20x rating, although reading further I see thatr this is _*input power to the controller.*_ Assuming that the efficiency at that peak level may be as low as 50%, then this might be possible with an actual output of 35 kW (or even 47 kW per the spec).

As such, I may still be interested, although probably not for awhile. If these motors need a lot of mechanical work to make them suitable for a conversion, that may add too much cost and complexity.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> I'm trying to be helpful by pointing out that anyone other than readers of this forum need more information to decide on making a purchase from the eBay site.


In other words, you are trying to protect people from themselves. That's usually a futile pursuit, and arguably it is not even a noble one, unless the people in question are truly helpless. Anyone buying AC24LS motors off of ebay without doing any research at all on them is probably suffering more from impulsiveness than any "handicap".

In any event, I strongly suggest that you read the whole thread before writing posts to it complaining about the lack of information. The irony of such a complaint is almost too much to bear given what I wrote in the first two sentences of the first post to this thread:



Tesseract said:


> I received a bunch of AC24LS motors in different incarnations and since I haven't found out much about them I figured it might be useful to start a thread here which can become a repository of information concerning said motors.....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

AntronX said:


> I have delta wired, spline shaft motor (Thanks to Jeff). You can rewire it to Wye without any wire crimping. See attached pictures.


Oh yeah - it's totally obvious now that the crimp lugs are stacked. Heh! Good job - I gave you the forum equivalent of a gold star for this post.

The bearing situation looks a lot clearer now, too. Hmm... I'm definitely charging more for the last two of these motors that I still have.


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

"C" FACED AC24LS MOTORS MORE MONEY BUT LESS HASSLE 


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170950408295&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I think these would make a great motor for a reverse trike. Direct drive, of coarse.

Or even a two wheeler or medium sized tractor for that matter.

They should be floating around for a good long while too, 

Miz


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Oh yeah - it's totally obvious now that the crimp lugs are stacked. Heh! Good job - I gave you the forum equivalent of a gold star for this post.


Thanks, just wanted to share what I know. 

Now that I've seen how they are made, I don't think these motors are well suited for EV. They have about 30 - 40 lbs of excess iron that could be omitted. The rotor is 29 lb and stator is around 65. I can only imagine how bad unmodded industrial AC motors must be in terms of mass. 

I wonder how much extra torque can be pulled out of there until saturation?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AntronX said:


> Now that I've seen how they are made, I don't think these motors are well suited for EV. They have about 30 - 40 lbs of excess iron that could be omitted. The rotor is 29 lb and stator is around 65. I can only imagine how bad unmodded industrial AC motors must be in terms of mass.


Or it could be that the motor designer knew what he was doing and there is the appropriate amount of iron to do the job and no excess at all


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

I am not implying that designer is clueless. What I mean is that AC24LS design is likely optimized for low cost and high reliability, but not weight. 

Compare this to AC Propulsion AC-75 motor. Weight is 75 lb and torque 122 Nm (vs 97 lb and 92 Nm for AC24LS). If we do linear extrapolation, AC24LS is 1.7 times heavier than AC75 for the same amount of torque.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

AntronX said:


> I am not implying that designer is clueless.


Sure sounds that way.


AntronX said:


> They have about 30 - 40 lbs of excess iron that could be omitted.





AntronX said:


> Compare this to AC Propulsion AC-75 motor. Weight is 75 lb and torque 122 Nm (vs 97 lb and 92 Nm for AC24LS). If we do linear extrapolation, AC24LS is 1.7 times heavier than AC75 for the same amount of torque.


But iron is only half of the torque equation. And do your extrapolation in dollars instead of mass. How many AC-75 motors do you see offered at $340


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Guys - let's keep the advertising links to non-AC24LS motors out of this thread. What HPEVS or anyone else is doing is not relevant.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

no gas said:


> "C" FACED AC24LS MOTORS MORE MONEY BUT LESS HASSLE
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170950408295&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT



Are you the seller? Interested in doing a group buy to Australia? If so, PM me.


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

Probably a dumb question but was is the feasibility of liquid cooling these motors to increase the continuous power rating?

Also is the red wire on the non drive end a thermocouple for temp sensing?


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

kerrymann said:


> probably a dumb question but was is the feasibility of liquid cooling these motors to increase the continuous power rating?
> 
> Also is the red wire on the non drive end a thermocouple for temp sensing?


 red wire is a temp sensing 
liquid cooling may be possiable ( tubes around the case??))


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm almost ready to test my AC24LS w/Transmission on a UMOC440F inverter, I just need to make an adapter board for the encoder and get the proper parameters for the AC24LS.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Look forward to hearing about your testing SGC! What are the specs/capabilities of your controller please? I thought those were the weak link in the old Azure setup?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

tylerwatts said:


> Look forward to hearing about your testing SGC! What are the specs/capabilities of your controller please? I thought those were the weak link in the old Azure setup?


I have a UMOC440F, rated 50 KW max, 30 KW continuous, 205 volts nominal and 250 A peak. They are the weak link, they use a way under rated relay as their main contactor (Kraus and Naimer S1730), the fuses are AC, not DC rated and they really need to be liquid cooled to operate past the 30 kw cont rating, but only fan cooling is available. They do use 400 AMP IGBTs but there just isn't enough cooling to use them properly.

I just tested mine on my old school ACgtx20 motor and the UMOC is now running perfectly, except for the fact that the relay is crap and I have the UMOC upside down just so gravity will help the realy close.


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## Farfle (Jan 16, 2011)

TheSGC said:


> I have the UMOC upside down just so gravity will help the realy close.


that's a good thing to fix


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Just got the motor from RemoteConnect.
Packaged well, no damage, condition new.
Junction box is removable. No cover for box.
HEAVY freaking feed wires. Nothing like a 5HP 230/3ph.
Comes with a sticker indicating it was made to go over 500vac originally, but could be run at other voltages.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Is there a bearing in the end bell at the splined end?


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

kennybobby said:


> Is there a bearing in the end bell at the splined end?


No. The spline appears to be 26mm pitch dia x 25 teeth. 1.083" major dia on spline.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Looks like I'm going to turn the splined shaft down to 25mm, then open up the bell hsg to 62mm and put a sealed NSK 6305 series bearing in it?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

McRat please keep us posted on your conversion of the motor! Will you key the shaft? I take it the shaft is already 25mm dia behind the spline? Would it be too short to simply cut it off the spline and have a shorter shaft with a taper lock?


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## flyn_brian (Oct 21, 2012)

I measured the front housing at 59mm and the shaft just past the spline at 35mm. I haven't measured the depth before it hits the seal but If there is at least 16mm depth then a skf 6206 would be a close fit but you would have to turn the 35mm part down to 30mm and bore the front plate from 59mm to 62mm.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds plenty promising though! That shaft seems rather beefy... Bigger than the Warp shafts isn't it? Those being 1 1/4 from memory, and being abused with much higher torque than proposed in these motors.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

flyn_brian said:


> I measured the front housing at 59mm and the shaft just past the spline at 35mm. I haven't measured the depth before it hits the seal but If there is at least 16mm depth then a skf 6206 would be a close fit but you would have to turn the 35mm part down to 30mm and bore the front plate from 59mm to 62mm.


Couldn't you just use a 5907 then without any machine work needed?


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## flyn_brian (Oct 21, 2012)

kennybobby said:


> Couldn't you just use a 5907 then without any machine work needed?


From what I'm gathering The OD of that bearing is 55mm and the width is 30mm. So while the ID is 35 which would be perfect the OD is too small and the width would be to wide.


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

*What did I buy? *



So I picked up a couple of the AC24LS motors, I picked up one C-face version of the motor and one with prioritary face designed to work with a custom transmission that I can going to play with on the bench. I am pretty illiterate when it comes to AC motors (I had to google what wiring in delta was vs wiring in wye). I had a free hour today so I decided to pull one apart and take a look andsee if there was any real damage left from UPS gentle delivery.

I'll start by saying the motor is really simple and pulling it apart and putting is only a few bolts but there are a few things that you need to pay attention too. I took pictures and posted here as reference for anyone else who bought one of the hundreds of motors that are on the market right now.

I pulled of one end by removing the 4 long bolts that run the length of the case.




The red wire is for sensing the stator temp and the black wire is the signal from the encoder.




Here you can see the PN for the bearing with the integrated encoder





And here are the wire colors



​ These washers look like belleville washers for the axial preload. Make sure you put them back in the right orientation.






Here you can see the two pins that retain the encoder. Make sure these are capturing the signal wire at the very last step before you tighten the 4 case bolts up.




I made 4 marks (in blue) on the outside of the end cap to show where the tapped holes are for alignment of the housing.



​

This big "screw" looks to be for compressing the belleville washers and provide the axial preload. I didn't have the right tool so some tapping with a strategically placed screwdriver. AC gurus, did I miss anything? Anyone know the torque values for this and the 4 case bolts?

I also pulled the connectors outside the housing for bench testing. The factory wiring harness runs into a potted box, with the connectors out I can access the wires directly. 

I am picking up a curtis controller and programmer and will start testing in a few weeks using a bunch of spare 24V lead acid batteries I have laying around.


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## electroauto.ru (Oct 11, 2009)

Hello!

I have following question regarding AC24 motors - can I run them directly from 3-phase power grid (400V, 50Hz)? What devices are required to start if from the grid? And what performance it will show in such setup (power, torque, speed)?

Oleg


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

electroauto.ru said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have following question regarding AC24 motors - can I run them directly from 3-phase power grid (400V, 50Hz)?


No, it will be horrible overvoltage. Voltage at 50Hz is much lower, something below 100V. With 400V 50Hz, you'll get huge torque but will burn the windings in matter of seconds. A 3-phase variac could be used for testing though.


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## Carl898989 (Dec 25, 2012)

kerrymann said:


> *What did I buy? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


New here, just want to say I got a AC24LS motor and curtis 1238 controller off of ebay, and got it working. Had to put out some bucks for the programmer, but had no choice. Will keep improving the motor output and let you people know the results. This is fun.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Carl898989 said:


> New here, just want to say I got a AC24LS motor and curtis 1238 controller off of ebay, and got it working. Had to put out some bucks for the programmer, but had no choice. Will keep improving the motor output and let you people know the results. This is fun.


Kool  Can you post how you connected the encoder? Like which wires to which pins?

Thanks,

major


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## Superyellow (Dec 8, 2012)

hi assuming that the whole AC24LS is 80 pounds or so how much would the stator and the motor shell weigh? I was thinking about dismantling the motor for weight reduction....would it be possible to slash the weight in two packages? 
sorry to interupt the conversation about the motors specs I thought maybe someone would be nice to put the already dismantled motors on the scale...

Economy is really bad 
I am selling my main transportation to leave fossil fuel behind and 
I have to be creative in order to survive
any ideas or help would be appreciated
thanks


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I can't think of anything useful you could accomplish by separating the casing, stator, and rotor. 80 lb for a 30 HP motor is excellent, and fully sufficient for a small vehicle. You will do much better by choosing a car with the best aerodynamics and lowest rolling friction and weight. The most weight (and expense) of a conversion will be batteries. If you really need to slash the cost of transportation, you should seriously consider a motorized bike, trike, or open frame four-wheeler.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Your forgetting about the use of force fields to reduce the weight of mechanical components. Don't need end bells and bearings when the armature is floating in a force field! Coming next, is a modulated FF to replace the stator.

Seriously, I think SY is writing about separating the motor to reduce shipping costs. Many of us are on very tight budgets.


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## Superyellow (Dec 8, 2012)

I agree with you paul 80 lb for a 30 HP motor is excellent indeed
and Ewrks you are right on the money I am trying to find out if i could split the motor in two pieces because It is cheaper to fly with a motor then shipping it overseas. 
Sorry I am not trying to be the new Tesla who is reinventing the AC induction Motor and also sorry Mr Morgan we gotta leave our homes for better opportunities for the last century.... no offense to anyone
I have seen enough dead civilians and military personnel for the obsolete dinosaur poop for the last decade and will go electric even it takes to run mice to charge my old batteries. I assume most of us here are trying to make the world better after a century of delay of the Electric car arent we? 
therefore
I believe i can fly!(with a 80 lb motor) 
P.S I love this thread seeing all the guts and the bolts of the AC24LS sorry again to change the conversation I just needed to know how heavy the rotor would be with the Bell? (I assume the bell is the Lid/cover of the motor excuse my ignorance)

in short words I wanted to know whether i could slash the 80 pound weight in two halves? maybe reduce it to 50 to 30 lbs in two luggages? 
thank you in advance


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

Carl898989 said:


> New here, just want to say I got a AC24LS motor and curtis 1238 controller off of ebay, and got it working. Had to put out some bucks for the programmer, but had no choice. Will keep improving the motor output and let you people know the results. This is fun.


Good to hear. I am still waiting on my controller but like Major I'd like to hear more about how you got it wired and set-up.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Excited to see more info on this motor.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Just installed my AC24LS in my car this past weekend. I'm loving the difference between this and the AC24 - although this pulls more power. With my AT1200 12:1, I'm seeing 17 secondish 0-60s, and the car definitely feels peppier. I'll be reinstalling my AT1200 10:1 soon to max out the speed gains of this motor (0-12000rpm = 0-76 mph). If anyone has questions about the day-2-day use of an AC24LS, ask away - I've had a AC24 in my car for 9 months now.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

otedawg said:


> Just installed my AC24LS in my car this past weekend. I'm loving the difference between this and the AC24 - although this pulls more power. With my AT1200 12:1, I'm seeing 17 secondish 0-60s, and the car definitely feels peppier. I'll be reinstalling my AT1200 10:1 soon to max out the speed gains of this motor (0-12000rpm = 0-76 mph). If anyone has questions about the day-2-day use of an AC24LS, ask away - I've had a AC24 in my car for 9 months now.


What controller are you using? And what settings do you change for the AC24LS?


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

njloof said:


> What controller are you using? And what settings do you change for the AC24LS?


I'm using the DMOC445, and my settings were already configured for the AC24LS. I thought they were correct for the AC24, but when I installed the LS, I checked, and my max torque was already set to 87, so I've been running the AC24 with LS settings. I think I remember that you have a DMOC. I can share my settings if you'd like.

All I did differently was to set my Max power up to 37kW and change the econ, normal, and max variables accordingly (econ is around 20kW, normal 30, and max 36). If it hadn't already been done, I would've also changed the max torque from 71 to 87.

Hopefully that makes sense. I can give you a link to my current par file if you'd like.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

That'd be awesome, I'll PM you.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Can you tell me how you have different AT1200 transmission ratios please. Is there a supplier of parts for different ratios? May I ask what your car is. How do you normally use it? Do you have a website or build thread please? Do you use the car at sustained speeds? How does the motor handle it for extended periods? Do you have data logging for power output and temperature?

Thanks.

I have 2 motor/trans combis and 2 spare motors and deciding the best use. Want to use paired in 4wd SUV.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Can you tell me how you have different AT1200 transmission ratios please. Is there a supplier of parts for different ratios? May I ask what your car is. How do you normally use it? Do you have a website or build thread please? Do you use the car at sustained speeds? How does the motor handle it for extended periods? Do you have data logging for power output and temperature?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I have 2 motor/trans combis and 2 spare motors and deciding the best use. Want to use paired in 4wd SUV.


Tyler,
The AT1200 gearboxes came in one of three different ratios (12,11,10:1). I _think_ that the older AT1200s were 12:1 - the ones that were used in Solectria COTS EVs were. I have 2 AT1200s - one from a Solectria Force, and one that is newer, and my newer one is 10:1. The 10:1 is what I'll be re-installing in my renovated Solectria Force. (I purchased a used Force, and Replaced/Refurbished every part in it - So I'm driving a Geo Metro 4D Sedan. I have driven the car at the maximum speed of the 12:1 / 10:1 (64 / 76) for 20-30 minutes, and the controller never experiences a thermal overload (50C), and the motor never exceeds 60C. I haven't logged temperatures, because I haven't had the need to yet. With regen disabled, the motor is a bit cooler than with it enabled, but I've never had any issues with thermal overload. Oh - and I haven't had any noticeable power degradation due to thermal conditions. 

I hope your SUV is small and light - the AC24LS maxes out at 60hp, so it probably won't be too peppy. Do you have 2 controllers? How are you planning on controlling the second motor / controller combo?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh very good thanks. My SUV is relatively light, swb Rav4 it is just not aerodynamic. I am glad to hear the motor doesn't mind high rpm for those periods as I will need similar.

I am toying with what controllers to use. As I am in the uk I am leaning to some EU controllers. For proportion ing power there are various options. Curtis allow chaining controllers as do some EU products. I am thinking to use a single throttle input to a central processor (not sure yet which) to determine the signals to send to each controller using ABS signals as basic traction control and proportioning front drive according to steering angle to control understeer.

Also this gives me redundancy if one axle loses drive I can limp with only the other.

Im happy with the power output as long as it can be sustained. This is why I asked what power you maintain at high speeds. The twin motors will meet the performance of my ICE quite comfortably especially with the reduction drive, with the only limitation being top speed. I was assuming though that the max rpm was not a sustained top speed so I assumed a max 10000rpm speed but if 12000 is ok I will meet my vehicle's top speed. I don't ever use or sustain the top speed so have a nice margin.

My concern is the amount of power available at these higher speeds. What have you experienced in the tailing off of power at these high speeds?


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Since I've been inundated with questions about my par file, here it is:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9908182/DELTA.par

Also, to answer Tyler's question, I've got an Excel spreadsheet that shows the difference between the AC24 and LS. 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9908182/carhp.xlsx
From tab 5, you can see that the HP of an AC24LS at 12000 rpm is 20HP. 
When you aren't actively driving your motor, it will spin free, so I wouldn't expect that to be an issue. I'd say that this will feel like a Rav4 with a way underpowered engine. My geo metro is peppy, but it's curb weight is about 1000lbs lower than your rav4.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

About 900lbs less than a 5 door rav. My 3dr is notably lighter, but I agree that would be a factor. But I will also be running 2 motors so have double the output to the road. Say about 40 percent more drive. Should go well. I am looking as the first stage to go to 2wd with a single rear electric drive as a hybrid much like a Lexus rx. This should show me how a single axle performs in my vehicle and allow me to run all electric in town too. 

That is my grand plan anyway unless I find some stronger motors capable of handling the 12000rpm required in place of the AC24ls motors. I can use those in a few bike conversions then. Spoilt for choice almost...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for that data. It is great! Helps me alot. What configuration is your motor connection? What voltage do you run your motor/controller at? Do you have a thread or web page I could review please? One thing I want to work out is how much I can increase voltage to improve higher rpm power/torque before magnetic saturation is reached. 

Thanks for the helpb!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh can someone tell me how to view the par file please. Thanks


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Tyler,
I've run my car at 208V, and it seemed to like it more - Accel times were cut down a bit - but I didn't take any data to prove it. The car was also heavier with the additional batteries, so I think it probably mostly canceled itself out in my case. I'd say you'll get around 80Hp peak with both motors running. I've got my brake lights tied into regen for my car, and I like how it ended up - about half the time, I use 100% regen braking - but it doesn't return nearly as much power as I'd been led to believe. I'm seeing an average of around 10% return with the DMOC and AC24LS. 

I like your idea for a hybrid. I remember one of the first EVs I ever saw - it was a hatchback Geo Metro with an electric motor using a Tracker 4wd diff and axle. I always wanted one of those.

The .par files are the files for use with an Azure Dynamics DMOC, but they may help you in programming another controller. They are ASCII - you should be able to open them in any text editor.

Thanks,
Otedawg


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

It's looking fairly short of my ICE then. I like the hybrid option more anyways the fwd ice will perform better than in 4wd and I'll have the additional 4wd for extra traction/performance.

I'll have a look at that par file. Do you feel the motor or controller are limiting? One idea was to try swastaj's (spelt totally wrong, sorry) rewire by just paralleling the endings to halve the voltage and double current capacity and use a Curtis or eu controller with a bit higher voltage to get higher rpm power and maintain torque. 

My understanding for this is the voltage fights back emf and current gives the torque so shouldn't saturate the iron either. Any thoughts?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Has anyone successfully gotten a DMOC645 to work with their AC24/AC24LS? I could swear there was a thread about this but I can't find it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Otedawg is using one as stated in this thread. And quite successfully I believe. There are other options though, Curtis voltage is a bit low so less top end power or some European controller options run high enough voltage. Those referenced on Stoja website look good. Or build a custom controller. 

But Otedawg can advise on the DMOC.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Otedawg is using one as stated in this thread. And quite successfully I believe. There are other options though, Curtis voltage is a bit low so less top end power or some European controller options run high enough voltage. Those referenced on Stoja website look good. Or build a custom controller.
> 
> But Otedawg can advise on the DMOC.


I'm using a DMOC445, but the main difference between the two is liquid cooling. The software to program them and the par files are the same. I'd say my car is successful - It's got ~6000 miles with this drive system on it, and no real issues (I've just got to remember to let off the parking brake. Fighting that uses a lot of power!)
Otedawg


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

I took off today to work on my car, and I ran into a problem this morning. I removed the 12:1 transmission from the AC24LS, and it pulled the shaft out about 3 inches. I pushed it back, but when I put everything back together with the new transmission and put it in the car, I was having serious encoder issues (Symptoms of encoder issues with a DMOC are the motor 'clunking' and the wheels turning very slowly - the controller isn't getting any feedback from the motor.) I took everything back out of the car, and while it was still hanging from my hoist I pulled the back off the motor to find that the encoder wheel that sits in the bearing had simply popped out. Not sure how this happened - the encoder pops out toward the inside of the motor... But I snapped it back into place, checked all the wiring, and now I'm reinstalling. Hopefully, everything will be fine once I get it all reinstalled in the car.

My next project is to find out why the speedometer output on my DMOC doesn't work - I'd hate to have to throw my speedo converter box back in the car to drive the speedo.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

If you're using a DMOC with a transmission, isn't the "speedo" output more of a "tach"? It doesn't know what gear you're in...


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

njloof said:


> If you're using a DMOC with a transmission, isn't the "speedo" output more of a "tach"? It doesn't know what gear you're in...


I'm using an AT1200 - it's a single speed gearbox. The whole problem is moot now, however. I found out that the speedo out on my 12:1 would mate with the 11:1, so now I have a working original speedo, and the 11:1 ratio that lets me get to 77mph. I'm happy. Now I've just got to replace the cv halfshaft that is leaking after the tranny replacement.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Otedawg may I ask what the CVs are from please? Are they off the shelf or specific to your trans? 
Also, what wheel size are you running to get 77mph and what motor rpm is that at please? 
Thanks!


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Otedawg may I ask what the CVs are from please? Are they off the shelf or specific to your trans?
> Also, what wheel size are you running to get 77mph and what motor rpm is that at please?
> Thanks!


Tyler, 
The one of the axles is off the shelf for my geo, and the other has been custom lengthened. I'm pretty sure that the one that's bad is the normal length one, since it is the one leaking grease. I'm going to try and find someone who will refurbish the other one if I can too.
I've got 13" wheels, I believe that the tires are 155 80 13s. That puts my max speed at 78mph with an 11:1 gearbox at 12000rpm. See the spreadsheet I posted earlier.

Thanks,
Otedawg


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## rrumpe (Feb 20, 2013)

Do someone knows what are these alumunium teeth(I pointed it with red circle on the picture) at both ends of the rotor?


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

rrumpe said:


> Do someone knows what are these alumunium teeth(I pointed it with red circle on the picture) at both ends of the rotor?


They are fan blades for circulating the air inside the motor. I think they're sometimes used for balancing as well, but there's usually smaller round protrusions for that purpose.


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## rrumpe (Feb 20, 2013)

I am asking that because our motors came with some blades cut as you can see on the picture. Do I have to worry about that?


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

rrumpe said:


> I am asking that because our motors came with some blades cut as you can see on the picture. Do I have to worry about that?


Yikes. That looks a bit excessive. Usually when they're used for balancing, they're either trimmed or bent. Looks like they've been intentionally cut, so it's probably okay. There might have been an issue during balancing at the factory. The rotor is probably still fine, but I'd have it balanced before putting it in to service though.Normally the balance can be achieved by cutting or bending just the little round nubs between the blades.


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

In that condition is also mine AC24LS but since it's fabricated that way(AD maked it that way) i think is normal and can give the specs that are writen in the original PDF brochure!


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## seankmc (Sep 28, 2012)

Hey Tesseract, do you happen to still have any of these laying around? Preferably one with the helical gear and bearing set up to mate to the at1200 gearbox? I have a 99 Force with a problematic ACgtx20


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yes, I have one last AC24LS with the helical gear and at least two of the AC24LS with the C-face on the front.


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## Jackmarshall7 (Jun 20, 2011)

Has anyone tried using the newer Curtis 1239 AC controller with an AC24LS? My DMOC445 is starting to be very unreliable and I would really like to replace it with something better that's still supported by it manufacturer. My system is the standard AC VoltsPorsche from ElectroAutomotive. (See evalbum.com/2560) Thanks in advance for help here.


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## no gas (Nov 16, 2012)

Curtis has the parameters for the ac24ls contact them or hpev they also did a dyno test on the 24ls


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yup, HPEV has the solution: http://hpevs.com/ac24-hpevs-controller-kit.htmhttp://hpevs.com/


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## seankmc (Sep 28, 2012)

Jackmarshall7 said:


> Has anyone tried using the newer Curtis 1239 AC controller with an AC24LS? My DMOC445 is starting to be very unreliable and I would really like to replace it with something better that's still supported by it manufacturer. My system is the standard AC VoltsPorsche from ElectroAutomotive. (See evalbum.com/2560) Thanks in advance for help here.


Sounds like there may be some support for the 1239, but if you
wanted to try to salvage that DMOC you could try getting in touch with a guy who goes by wolf on the Solectria_ev yahoo forum. He has repaired quite a few of the AMC controllers and I think he has some experience with the DMOCs as well...
If you are dead set on the curtis he may be interesteed in picking up your old controller for parts.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Hey yall, I'm messing with one of these too (c-face). And Johannes 3 phase kit.

I found more technical detail on the encoder:
http://www.skf.com/binary/49-28663/SKF-motor-encoder-units-product-sheet.pdf

looks like based on the bearing p/n in post 142, we have 64 pulses/min, which might be good enough for FOC. 

looks like it takes 5-24 volts, and you pull up the signal lead with 270ohms @ 5 volts. 2 pulse leads (grey/blue) I guess for redundancy.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm using a custom 132-frame induction motor with one of these encoders (64ppr) installed. My controller runs FOC without a problem. Rememeber with quadrature encoders you actually have 4x the number of pulses worth of resolution. a 64ppr encoder breaks a full turn in to 256 slices. With FOC, you're not as interested in rotor position as you are in rotor speed anyway since the rotor flux is estimated and not absolute like a BLDC motor.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Holy zombie thread, Batman...

I'll be out of town until Thursday but just wanted to note that I still have (1) of the AC24LS motors with the helical splined shaft and no drive end bearing (see beginning of thread for description) and at least (2) of the AC24LS motors with the C-face and keyed shaft.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

can someone check my understanding here, answer some noob questions?

1.
it looks like in the graph below they ran the 156v delta test at the low end of the voltage range (144 to 240) and the 312 wye at the high end of the range (228 to 336). 

so that if you ran it the delta at like 191v at 400a, the graphs would be about the same, minus efficiency losses at higher currents? (and would need 44 less 3.2v cells to get there?)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14836&d=1353951467

2. 
also the datasheet, has two figures for max current:
Maximum DC Current A DC 268, 165
Maximum Motor Phase Current Apk AC 400, 250

So for delta, you need a controller that can do a minimum of 260amps or 400 amps?
edit, I just rememberd the controller controls the phases, so yah, 400 amps peak..

3.
Also, if I extrapolate the delta graph and max voltage (240), that delta could be run at 6154 rpm and make [email protected] amps? caveats? and the wye would be making about 50kw at max voltage(336v) @ 250A around 5000rpm? And the delta would still be making 42kw at 12000 rpm at 240v?

Thanks,
Dave.

it is looking like delta is the way to go if I am reading this right, but the datasheet suggested 156v for some reason and delta doesn't look so good in comparison there.


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

dcb said:


> can someone check my understanding here, answer some noob questions?
> 
> 1.
> it looks like in the graph below they ran the 156v delta test at the low end of the voltage range (144 to 240) and the 312 wye at the high end of the range (228 to 336).
> ...


I have Sevcon gen 4 550A rated and AC24LS motor for my DIY conversion, and i think to get arround 20KW at WYE connecting for max efficiency and torque knowing that i trade it for low breakdown point on the torque graph.
You can connect the motor as you wish, connecting only shows WHAT you want from the motor for a given controller, trading high torque for higher rpm breakdown point(delta connecting), or higher torque on less breakdown rpm point(wye). 

Maximum DC Current A DC 268, 165 is for DMOC 445 showed in the pdf, you can expect different or similar amps with Curtis/Sevcon or other controller.

So for delta, you need a controller that can do 400A(no need to be nominal, can be peak because that motor can't sustain that amps for longer time than 1-2min i supose).


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks, I guess I should clarify that controller current isn't the limiting factor here  I can put whatever sized IGBT's I need on it (johann igbt kit), just trying to see what the motor can do and work my way backwards, with a nod to the savings had at lower voltages (charger/#cells/bms/etc).


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

dcb said:


> Thanks, I guess I should clarify that controller current isn't the limiting factor here  I can put whatever sized IGBT's I need on it (johann igbt kit), just trying to see what the motor can do and work my way backwards, with a nod to the savings had at lower voltages (charger/#cells/bms/etc).


I will work with 80-100v dc, motor wired for 69v ac for now, and when I find a nice donor car will post results.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I see, sort of. So with 100v in wye, if you limit it to 250A/phase, you are looking at peak of 15kw at ~ 1500 rpm, and pretty well out of kw at 4-6krpm?


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

dcb said:


> I see, sort of. So with 100v in wye, if you limit it to 250A/phase, you are looking at peak of 15kw at ~ 1500 rpm, and pretty well out of kw at 4-6krpm?


But it's suficient for a car up to 2500lbs. with decent acceleration in the city, i don't want tesla motor under the hood, i just want to go cheap and efficient to work! 
Maybe i can extract more power at delta, but i love more torque on the shaft, so i stay on wye(all is experiments on the motor -- controller, lot of time to fine tune it).
For you is better to get some high voltage battery to use the full potential of the motor, and a high voltage controller with max amps arround 300.
And to say, for a 100km/h you need arround 10-12KW(for the same weight --> 2500lbs.) power for sustaining that speed so i am okay up to highway speeds.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks! I wasn't trying to be critical of the power levels, just trying to make sure I have some clue how this datasheet/graph works  If 100v is your budget and it works for you then go for it! Will be interested to see how it works out. Looks like switching from delta/wye is fairly trivial too.


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

I want to ask, can the AC24LS handle 2200lbs Suzuki Jimny while is direct drive coupled to the rear diff which is 3,9(or 4,3 if i find diff from Automatic).
I supose it will struggle on grades but on flat should be fine, right?
Will be connected on WYE for max torque.
Tyres are standard 205/75/R15.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

You are gonna want some gear selections. I did a comparison to the original motor torque/rpm range on my civic (similiar weight) and the new torque/rpm range with the existing tranny and final ratios, and it seems I'm going to at least need the first 3 gears to be able to accelerate/climb and have reasonable top speed.


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

dcb said:


> You are gonna want some gear selections. I did a comparison to the original motor torque/rpm range on my civic (similiar weight) and the new torque/rpm range with the existing tranny and final ratios, and it seems I'm going to at least need the first 3 gears to be able to accelerate/climb and have reasonable top speed.


3rd gear should be similar in performance to that setup i supose!?!?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

note: if your transfer case has two speeds, you might run the numbers through that and see if you can bolt directly to it.


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

dcb said:


> note: if your transfer case has two speeds, you might run the numbers through that and see if you can bolt directly to it.


That's great suggestion thanks, will search for ratios tomorrow!


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I would be a little envious of being able to use a driveshaft to couple the motor, this transmission adapter has to be pretty precise and more involved to get it right. Shifting will be extra tricky w/no clutch and no synchros though. If the motor could rpm match for you that would be easiest, don't know who is doing that though (I'm going to give it a shot on my johannes controller eventually)

edit: rpm match controller looks entirely doable 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/electronic-synchromesh-shifting-37764.html


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## LessHeat (May 14, 2014)

Hi and please excuse late addition to this thread. 

It has been several years since much of this was discussed and I wonder if other threads have taken over? Or the ship has completely sailed on these motors?

First, a comment on delta and wye and torque choices. Back in the day when Solectria was new, the discussion was electronic transmissions which we used on one of our solar cars with great enthusiasm. We shifted from series to parallel for a factor of 2 and from delta to wye for a factor of 1.7 in our torque curves. Allowed small controllers with low current limits to give high torque to motors at low speeds while still allowing the motor to spin fast. All that was needed was a large switch and some remote activation to keep the wires as short as possible. Less pain in the torque tradeoff choices.

So, I am one of the people who bought one of these motors assuming.."how bad can it be?". I have my own shop and can pretty easily do most things, but a spline is a pain. It had not occured to me that the unit would be so custom. My current desire is to machine an insert to fit the spline and live inside a standard bearing. The insert would enable attachment to any other output. Similarly and alternatively, the insert would be made from the desired output pulley or gear. A bearing retainer plat ewould also be made.

Thus I want to make splines to fit. I am leaning toward buying a rotary spline rig, but would like a feel for how big the need is in the community. The tool costs about $500 plus $100 for the specific spline shape, but then any output device could be made. Is there anyone else out there who might be interested in going in on this?

Is what I am saying making any sense?

I am reluctant to make a new end bell or machine the motor shaft. I am hopeful there are many others out there who could use the ability to make these splines in various pulleys and gears. 

Or maybe there is already someone selling these parts? Has anyone seen the AD spline available anywhere as a standard part?

Thanks and looking forward to learning more.


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## LessHeat (May 14, 2014)

Ooops. Misspoke. Actually called a Rotary Broach.

Cool video...down a bit on the right side...

http://www.polygonsolutions.com/


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## Remotecontact (Mar 16, 2010)

I've found that simply lathing off the splines (the shafts are not very hard) and machining a keyway to be the simplest way to make the splined motors useful. 

- Adam


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi guys. 
Can anyone write some parameters for that motor, such as phase resistance, inductance, reactance, and etc.
Currently trying to configure the inverter in torque mode but it's hard without any parameters!


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## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

Didn't anyone drive with these motors anymore?
I have some parameters that are hard to measure, if anyone have ac24ls with whatever controller, just dump the parameters from your controller!
Here are some of them:


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Thank you kind sir!


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## Falcon65 (Mar 22, 2015)

I am thinking about using the ac24ls with a DMOC 645 controller and GEVCU from evtv in my next ford ranger conversion. Does anyone know if this combination is possible?

Do I need to tweak the settings on the DMOC and if so how can I do this?

Also will the motor be able to handle 336v?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

somewhere in this thread there should be a link to the spec sheet (with a dmoc 445)

http://www.mp3car.com/attachments/w...x-7-conversion-ac24ls_dmoc445productsheet.pdf

it list 336v as the max battery voltage in wye configuration.

I have no idea if the 645 is a good fit or overkill or what. http://media3.ev-tv.me/DMOC645_User_Manual.pdf

at first glance, the 645 might be a good fit for a delta terminated ac24ls. Otherwise a high voltage 445 looks reasonable. If it helps, I'm going with 600A igbts for a 240v pack and delta terminated.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

just me revisiting the motor parameters, again (with an eye on efficiency and constant operation), this was the peaks from the efficiency chart xferred over, and a 3kw loss for continuous duty (complete swag there). Looks like you need a 57kw peak battery for peak power of 47kw, and 29kw for the high end of constant operation. So roughly 2:1 between peak kw and continuous kw for the battery for ah optimization. If your ride needs less continuous power then a higher ratio may be appropriate.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Can someone help me understand what I'm seeing here? Looking for more torque without things flying apart or second mortgage.

My understanding was that a motor torque was porportional to the rotor surface area times the rotor diameter.

hpev lists an ac20 making 170 nm peak torque (peak power 35kw, 144vdc, ~270ADC, 2100rpm, 160.9nm, that all checks out ok):
http://hpevs.com/Site/images/torque-curves/baldor-ac24/Baldor AC-24 metric peak.pdf

but here, same motor making 43kw @ ~5500 rpm (156v) but somehow the torque is only in the 74nm range. 
http://www.cems.uvm.edu/~aero/AC24_2007.pdf

Is it because the dmoc445 can only handle 280rms bouncing around in the inverter? and that equates to 74nm (regardless of dc amps)?

it is similiar in width/length to the ac24ls, but the ls datasheet also use the dmoc445, limited to about 90nm.

So, like, any guess on how many amps rms the ac24ls can handle before it starts saturating (delta)?

Or how long you can run it there before stuff melts? If I can trade rpm for torque electrically, I definitely want to look into that so I size the igbt's etc accordingly.

same motor (i assume), similar voltage, one making over twice the torque at less than half the rpm.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

followup: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385655&postcount=186

ok, so things are making a little more sense perhaps, run it in wye at low voltage and throw lots of amps at it, kind of like a series-parallel set up where you never switch to parallel. (and the rms is a lot of bucking current, what the igbt's and leads need to handle).


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

fair warning, going to the scrapper tuesday.

free to good home ac24ls


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Has anyone by any chance tested one of these motors as a generator?

I am curious what its output voltages and amps are at various rpm.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

hoo boy, that is a deceptively simple question.

but it should be in the ballpark efficiency of how it operates as a motor. And you still need a three phase controller and power source to do much with it besides connect it to an existing 3 phase grid and spin it at a very limited rpm range.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jfarrugi/practicalmachinist/pub_1602.pdf


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

dcb said:


> And you still need a three phase controller and power source to do much with it besides connect it to an existing 3 phase grid and spin it at a very limited rpm range.


So it would not work attached to a diesel engine and connected to a 3-phase full bridge rectifier to output DC power?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

nope, it is the slip compared to an existing power supply that generates the electrical power, be it in a windmill or a tesla braking. (you spin it faster than the supply for a generator, and slower for a motor)

edit: "apparently" you can get it started on DC with a 3 phase capacitor bank to provide continuous reactive power, then possibly rectify that, but it might not be the most efficient, but it should work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_generator#Grid_and_stand-alone_connections


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Sorry, for some reason I assumed it was a permanent magnet motor. I did not realize it is an induction motor.


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## chentron (Nov 13, 2017)

this motor is still for sale in ebay.
nominal voltage is 69v AC x 1,414= 98 volts DC
could somebody tell me maximum system voltage (battery) ?
thanks


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

According to the spec sheets, maximum operational voltage for the AC24LS was 400 VDC; maximum recommended is 240VDC in delta winding or 336VDC in wye.


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## chentron (Nov 13, 2017)

yes, i have the document from Azure, with that data.
but We are talking in this thread, there is a version rewound to low voltage 40/69VAC, so I imagine the operational DC voltage is lower . 
And that is the quesition, what is the operational VDC for this 40/69 VAC version ?




njloof said:


> According to the spec sheets, maximum operational voltage for the AC24LS was 400 VDC; maximum recommended is 240VDC in delta winding or 336VDC in wye.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

chentron said:


> yes, i have the document from Azure, with that data.
> but We are talking in this thread, there is a version rewound to low voltage 40/69VAC, so I imagine the operational DC voltage is lower .
> And that is the quesition, what is the operational VDC for this 40/69 VAC version ?


Hi guys,

The 40/69VAC figure is from the nameplate which is valid for 60 Hz. That will yield speeds near 1800 RPM (- slip). Running at 240/336VDC on the inverter bus requires proportionally higher frequency to yield ~7000 RPM.

It is, or was, common practice to stamp nameplates with 60 Hz ratings so the motors could be validated using the mains instead of an inverter, even though the motor was never intended to run from the mains. The nameplate may have been in accordance with the NEMA standard.

Regards,

major


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## chentron (Nov 13, 2017)

Major, so you mean 40/69VAC and 156/312VAC are exactly the same motor ?

your statement sound very logical, but what about this early post in this thread ?

"...I was told that the motors come from Baldor as 5.5 KW cont. motors running on 220v but then get rewound in MA to 40/70VAC with better wire and balanced up to 13K RPM (12K max spec'd)... "

it is here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334376&postcount=74

I am affraid to burn the motor if I apply too high voltage.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

chentron said:


> Major, so you mean 40/69VAC and 156/312VAC are exactly the same motor ?
> ...


Yes.

And I don't see anything inconsistent with that quote and what I've told you.

major


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## chentron (Nov 13, 2017)

My english is not very good but when He said "rewound" , what I understand is Baldor change the cooper inside from the original design, to be optimized for 40/69VAC... but it looks I dont understand correctly.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

chentron said:


> My english is not very good but when He said "rewound" , what I understand is Baldor change the cooper inside from the original design, to be optimized for 40/69VAC... but it looks I dont understand correctly.


It's not just the voltage. Include frequency. The winding for 40 VAC at 60 Hz works for 160 VAC at 240 Hz. Then speed is 4 times faster and you get 4 times the power. The coil wire was increased in size to handle the current and the voltage hasn't exceeded the original motor design parameters. It won't burn up immediately but you do have to monitor and manage heat, just as you would at any voltage.

major


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## chentron (Nov 13, 2017)

I received my ac24ls.
I have to decide which voltage for the batteries. I prefer go for wye. Azure say 288-336 volts range
I readed that in delta setup, 144vdc is not a good choice, with very bad performance, so recommended at least 156 vdc.
Is there some problem if a go for 300vdc in wye or might it be at least 312vdc (=156x2) to avoid same performance problem than 144vdc delta wiring ?
thanks


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