# Some help on new custom project



## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

Greetings, I'm new here and to this whole EV think.

I'm an offroad ATV/dune buggy nut and a business entrepreneur for a career.

I'm considering a new venture to build an EV dune buggy for my personal use and perhaps someday to sell on the market. My basic plan is to buy a prebuild sand rail buggy as a rolling chassis (the one in the picture below) then graft in a full electric motor set up

My questions are this - 

1. If I want serious power what kind of motor would I need (I don't want golf cart power here, I want 65mph + top end fast acceleration - similar to other Gas UTV's today like the Polaris RZR) - the buggy will weigh about 850lbs before the drivetrain is added so overall weight will be very low.
2. What are the possibilities of getting somethign like this approved for steet use? - The buggies I'm getting are manfuactured outside the US and are for off road use, but is there still a way?
3. What kind of batteries are the best for this type of application, I'll need to get at least 50 - 100 mile range but I'd really like to be in the 150 mile range . Cost is not a huge issue for me, I'm more interested in good performance
4. What kind of costs am I realisticly looking at here? I've see full conversion kits in $4000 - $5000 but does that include the tranmission set up as well? I can get the rolling chassis for about $3500 - $4000 delivered and would like a final cost for units to cost around $10,000 to build. Does this sound realistic for the performance I''m looking for?
5. Are there any full service companies out there that assist with guys like me that don't have all the technical knowlege but the plan and money to get it done?

I've got a thousand more questions but let's start with these

Thanks so much for your help here on this, I truly belive the future of ATV's and Buggies is goiing to be electric but I don't see anyone trying it so this could be something really exciting if I can pull it off

Asaszn


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

144 Volts would be fine for a buggy that light... For the range you are looking for, you would need 24 - 6volt batteries, I dont think you could get into the newer type batteries and stay within your budget.
As for street use, It wouldnt be much more difficult than getting the OK for a ICE powered buggy.

Most of the companies that sell EV parts have knowledgeable people to help you with with the problem spots...

Your big costs are 
Motor $1500
Controller $1500-3000
Batteries $1500-2000


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

Twilly,

Thanks for the advice and I welcome any more you or others can give. 

Just one question on that motor, what do you suggest, again, I can't overstate the fact that I dont' want a "sufficent" motor, I realy want a screamer.

Asaszn


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

Also, I'm not familiar with what an ICE powered buggy is for registration


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

A Netgain Warp 9 gives good performance in a heavy car, So I believe it would be a screamer in a 800 lb buggy... But there is always the Warp11... In a electric vehicle, you have to balance weight and performance... 

I licenced a Kit Car a few years ago, and it wasn't too bad... Youll need a windshield, wipers, turn sig, stop lights, hazards, headlights, seatbelts, bumper... Check with your local Hiway patrol, they should be able to give you the requirments. And keep all your reciepts, they are looking for stolen parts also


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

Thanks again Twilly,

Another question for you. It seems most folks bolt up the motor to their existing tranmission, this won't be option for me. 

Is there a stand alone transmission that I can buy that would allow for half shafts to be the axles?

Thanks!!


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

A motor for each shaft is an option, but the cost goes up... You really need a trans to get the ratios right to max out your range... Could you get the one that comes with the ICE? Otherwise, retroing a trans into that frame might be a job


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

Wow Twilly, I feel like I should be sending you a check for consulting!

Okay, I've gotta ask again, what is an ICE? 

I'm thinking you mean the donor vehicle, if so there is a possibility that the existing transmission would work but the buggy is made overseas and the parts tend to be "less than USA built" quality so I'm trying to use as few of their parts as possible. If I am able to use theirs which is a CVT like that on standard auto ATV's and virtually all snowmobiles, should I be worried about the massive torque that comes out of electric motors vs gas hogs? I don't want to tear the trans to peices just to find out it was weak and wouldn't work for the this application, along with that I'm not even sure if a CVT that's tuned to a gas torque curve could even get in the ballpark of what we need. I've got a Polaris RZR 800cc with a CVT and I know how much adjusting the cvt needed just with performance parts that didnt change the curve more than 15%.

One follow up if you don't mind, can you tell me about the 2 motor option, that sounds good to me as a possiblity. What does it do the the range, battery set up, etc.? and How would it perform given that it doesn't have any gear ratios, would I be able launch to 0-30mph like a rocket but max out at 40mph, or be able to go 60mph but take 50 seconds to get there, or some mediocre in between?

I know I'm asking alot of questions but I sure do appreciate the help!!


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Asaszn said:


> Okay, I've gotta ask again, what is an ICE?


ICE = *I*nternal *C*ombustion *E*ngine


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

ICE = internal combustion engine...

As for the Buggies original trans... Most of us are converting cars that were designed to handle torque from the ICE, so most of our engineering is done for us... There are quite a few VW electric convertion kits out there, Could you work from a dune buggy kit made for a VW engine and trans? Old VW parts are cheap and easy to get.

Direct drive requires tons of torque, so 2 motors would require a big controller and kill your range... Check out Netgain's site ( www.go-ev.com ) and check out the TRANS series motors, they have a mini trans tailshaft built onto the motor for direct drive ( Differential only )

Should I post my address to send the consulting fee to?


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

thanks Twilly, you joke but maybe we could work something out I really need a technical advisor on this.

Shoot me an email [email protected]

In the meantime, another question the motors you talk about trans motors, what does that mini trans do specificly, I did see their site but as usual for a rookie that doesn't help much

Asasn


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

While selecting your motor you may want to peruse the used motorcycle vendors in your area. There are several motorcycle transmissions that would go great in a unit like what you have pictured. I am not a cycle expert but if memory serves there is one that actually has a reverse gear in it. (or it may be a small electric reversing motor) A trans from a large touring bike would definately hold up to your intended abuse. Are there any Motor Cycle gearheads that can shed more light on this?


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

That "tailshaft" has a yoke on the end of it that will hook directly to most GM driveshafts... Just another option if you decide to go "transless"


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## heynow999 (Mar 2, 2008)

Look here

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/shows/showdetails.aspx?sid=6338

and this is sort of like what you want to do.

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/me...green-machines-all-terrain-trample/#clip32025


good luck


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## Alex Everett (Dec 26, 2007)

heynow999 said:


> Look here
> 
> 
> and this is sort of like what you want to do.
> ...


Got message "Video only availiable in Canada" and clip would not open for me


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## heynow999 (Mar 2, 2008)

OK, the show is called
* Mean Green Machines*


on Canadian discovery channel. They show some electric 4x4`s


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## Asaszn (May 11, 2008)

I do really like that idea of using two motors. I'm thinking it may be possible to just line them up with teh half shafts and run them direct, WOW would that make my life easier. I dont' want to use a used motorcycle trans as I'd like to be able to duplicate this buggy for sale to others if it works out well.

Does anyone have any experience with running the transwarp series motors? 

Can anyone tell me what the trans on the transwarp actually does? (in stupid man terms if possible)


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

The Trans in TransWarp is just an adapter from a round keyed shaft to a typical driveshaft yoke for use in direct drive situations ( ie differential only )


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## T3Tech (May 4, 2008)

I'll chime in on one thing to think about with the direct drive option as I've looked into it a little in my own throwing around the idea of a 4 motor AWD system to use lower voltage and smaller motors. 

You need to consider your tire size which will dictate how fast the motor will spin. Usually it's too slow, so the motor isn't operating optimally and will draw more current from all I've read. The other issue comes in as to how they are wired up - series, parallel, or seperately controlled. The last option here would be my choice particularly for my AWD idea, but this increases complexity and with AWD, maybe with two wheels/motors, could quite likely require a controller controller so to speak to emulate what a differential does, but programming the software to handle such a "controller-controller" is something I could do myself. 

For a little more info on the direct drive vs transmission thing: http://www.canev.com/Faq/pages/transmissions.htm

The EV calculator may also be useful and can give you motor RPM, torque, current draw, etc. for given tire size at different speeds:http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Sorry but I have to insert a reality check here.




> I'll need to get at least 50 - 100 mile range but I'd really like to be in the 150 mile range . Cost is not a huge issue for me, I'm more interested in good performance


You later state your Budget is $10,000 for the whole vehicle.

For a 100 mile range EV you'll need at least 38 Kilowatt Hours of power.

38KWH of power using Lead-Acid batteries would weight a massive amount and is pretty much out of the question for a lightweight buggy.

Using Lithium Iron Phospate batteries to achieve this goal would mean a cost of $24,000 or more, just for the batteries, plus the battery management system/charge controller.


Are you prepared to spend $24,000 on just batteries?

If not you wont be achieving a 100 mile range, especially not if your driving with a lead foot the whole time.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Yep, I looked into doing the same with the following, but found the lack of battery room limiting. 


> For a 100 mile range EV you'll need at least 38 Kilowatt Hours of power.


Doesn't the size, weight, aerodynamics, come into play as well?

























http://www.quicksandperformance.com/YamaGallery.html


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Mastiff said:


> Using Lithium Iron Phospate batteries to achieve this goal would mean a cost of $24,000 or more, just for the batteries, plus the battery management system/charge controller.
> 
> Are you prepared to spend $24,000 on just batteries?
> 
> If not you wont be achieving a 100 mile range, especially not if your driving with a lead foot the whole time.


 I have to agree. While I'm no expert, I've done a little reading on EVs with regard to range and performance. The best combination of range and performance that I've ever heard of (IMHO) is the Tesla roadster. Yeah, it's an on-road vehicle, but if it could be made into an off-road thing, that's the type of effort you're looking at. It's tremendously expensive, and a *lot* of thought and engineering went into it, I'm sure.

What we really need is a battery technology made with super cheap materials, like sand and sea water, that turns out to be 10x more powerful than lithium. Oh, and it can't go "nuclear" in an accident, and it will be no heavier than, say, an equivalent volume of wood.

And then I woke up... Sorry about that. It's a tough problem, and very difficult to solve on a tight budget.

-Mark


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