# Lithium Battery compared - Thunder Sky, CALIB, Headway, Hi-Powers, etc.



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> I want to start this thread to compare Lithium Battery, based on personal experiences.
> 
> Let try to keep this compact, so it would be easy to use it as a reference later.
> 
> Thank you all in advance for all inputs!!!


O.K. What are your results? Start us off


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

major said:


> O.K. What are you results? Start us off


I would like to see reports of cell failures with damage caused and causitive situation and including BMS systems used. [Working fine with total kW-hrs delivered is also good to report.]
Gerhard


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

I think info based on personal experiences will help to promote EVs in general... In our design we should include some kind of Li battery and not AGM or other lead-based products, they are history.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> I think info based on personal experiences will help to promote EVs in general... In our design we should include some kind of Li battery and not AGM or other lead-based products, they are history.


O.K. Cool. You want a comparison of members experience with different Lithium batteries. How about you start a spreadsheet and we'll fill in? I'll start. Kokam 40 Ah perform to spec up to 8C and have 19 cycles in the field with no problems.

I'm not putting you down here. Go for it. I just don't think it will work. But prove me wrong, please 

major


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Either nobody here runs lithium or they don't have any issues to report.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi !

I have a pack of Thundersky 160ah 40 pieces to give about 128v nominal. 
The've got about 6300+ miles on them now in pretty harsh swedish environment. Last winter I did some close to 2C runs in -28degC and this winter I have run the car in -27degC. I run it every day.
I had one cell go busbar on me, but other then that they work fine.

They DO NOT LIKE the cold here, below freezing is not that fun.
I had a Endless BMS, but I run BMS free now. No LVC/HVC just pack voltage. I have probably overcharged them before I got the charger to work properly. And I can see big differences in Ri. Probably from overcharge. I did not have the cellog when I started using the pack.
Over all really happy. 
Enough to plan a second pack for another car.
I never draw abowe 2C from the pack.

Regards
/Per


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

pm_dawn said:


> I never draw abowe 2C from the pack.


Not even for 8cek?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

/Per, Can you share what your pack voltage sags to and at what amperage at around -28degC. That would be roughly my design voltage minimum and 2C would be acceptable to me in the winter although I'd probably have to accelerate a bit carefully to keep it low, especially if I don't oversize my pack as much as I originally planned to.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

Even at fairly high SOC they sag below 2,5v at near 2C draw in -25degC.
I have 40 cells. I noted my lowest voltage to 89v at full throttle (275A)last winter. Temp was about -27 at that time, so really cold. I try to keep below 1C during winter. 
This winter I have insulated boxes but I have not yet added any heating cable under the batteries.

I plan to but I don't have a garage to be in when working with my car and working outside in -20 and under take a lot of whiskey and we have all seen what that leads to......

Best Regards
/Per Eklund


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

PM, you might try this stuff in the link below to retain heat in your batteries. It's only about 10mm thick and is equivalent of about 50mm of fiberglass insulation or 25mm of foam insulation. I used this stuff in the construction of my office. It also lines the floor of my truck and is in the wall behind the seat. This is a double layer product but they make a single layer half as thick which is what I used.

FYI I've used it in the ceiling and floor of my home. After installing it under the house which was normally comfortably above freezing in the winter, it became very cold under there. It works by reflecting radiant heat just as a mirror reflects visible light. It was developed by NASA, the US space agency to minimize the insulation thickness in their space suits which otherwise they said would have required several inches of insulation which wasn't practical.

I seriously recommend this stuff to everyone!

http://www.radiantbarrier.com/side-wall-insulation.htm


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> PM, you might try this stuff in the link below to retain heat in your batteries. It's only about 10mm thick and is equivalent of about 50mm of fiberglass insulation or 25mm of foam insulation. I used this stuff in the construction of my office. It also lines the floor of my truck and is in the wall behind the seat. This is a double layer product but they make a single layer half as thick which is what I used.
> 
> FYI I've used it in the ceiling and floor of my home. After installing it under the house which was normally comfortably above freezing in the winter, it became very cold under there. It works by reflecting radiant heat just as a mirror reflects visible light. It was developed by NASA, the US space agency to minimize the insulation thickness in their space suits which otherwise they said would have required several inches of insulation which wasn't practical.
> 
> ...


I used this also.. I have two points to consider. It works well on the sides of battery boxes. If you are putting it under lead acid, don't waste your time...the weight of the battery will flatten it pressing the air out of the bubbles. Be careful getting it anywhere near the top of the battery also...yes, aluminum foil is conductive. It took me a while to figure out why I was getting a tingle off my truck frame when touching battery terminals. I covered 4/0 with some heater hose (reinforced with steel) and it was touching the aluminum foil bubble wrap...


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys, I think this is AWESOME idea: 



DIYguy said:


> I covered 4/0 with some heater hose (reinforced with steel)


And this link :
http://www.radiantbarrier.com/garage-door-insulation.htm 

-about insulation, where it could be used for general car insulation for A/C and heat purposes!!!

Thank you!!!


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## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

Hi everyone,
My Hi-Power cells are 100Ah and 40S connected. They perform superb combined with manufacturers charger and cell shunts. I use cellog 8S to monitor voltage of each cell. What they say in brochure is correct 1C normal discharge, 3C for 15-20 even 60 seconds. I haven’t experience any negative yet, and car is running every day for the past year. I decided to use wood for my battery box as it performs as isolation as well, both thermal and electrical. Inside wooden box there is a cell-plast-foam isolation material that Hi-power shandong uses when transport cells. I use cockpit 240V 1200W heater a few minutes before charge and every time before driving here in Sweden during winters. Last week it was –19*C and the car is running well. 

I have also 4 small packs of Headways. We use them to unload forklift trucks from trailers and to transport them to warehouse. We have abused those packs by dropping them, over discharge them, undercharge, overload, and overheat and very very cold… I can write in hours but they just deliver and deliver. Last week firs pack had a string of cells that died as shunt wires got broken after 14 months of abuse. I just pull out some cells and reorganize them without any shunt or BMS, they perform now even better… One thing that I do not like about Headway is very pour material of poles, screws, washers and contacts… 50% is already rusty a bit.

All my tools and toys are running on 123’s. You have to dare to start experimenting battery and to push it a but harder next time. I can say only “No comment”, get your own set and start playing if you dare. 

I just purchased some GBSystem 100Ah LiFeMnPO4 cells but didn’t had a chance to test them. Impressive is finish on those, they look like Porsche or Ferrari compared with all other cells that I ever seen. If they perform like they look they can easily become my first choice.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

elfi said:


> What they say in brochure is correct 1C normal discharge, 3C for 15-20 even 60 seconds. I haven’t experience any negative yet, and car is running every day for the past year.


Thank you for sharing this info. Did you try to go 2C "normal" discharge or more then 3C?

Can you post Amps on certain speeds like 40, 50, 60, 80 K/H...


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## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

Speed km/h ........Amps
Start ................100-200A depends
20 .....................20
30 .....................30
50 .....................50
70 .....................80
90 .....................100
100 ...................130
110 ...................160

My normal driving is thru suburbia to job, no highway. Speed limit is 50, 70, 90 another words no need for more than 100Amps.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I just received the test report for my 67 Calb 180 Ah cells. I asked them to match them as close as possible WRT capacity and internal resistance. Its a pretty well detailed report. I was hoping for something half this good. I'll give you the highlights.....67 cells tested.

lowest Ah rating.....................198
highest Ah rating ...................200
lowest resistance in mOhms......0.31
highest resistance in mOhms.....0.36

Pretty impressive... I think. 

Merry X-mas everyone..


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

They also measured open circuit voltage after a 1C discharge and then charge to 60%SOC, then stand for 24 hours.
Lowest voltage measured..... 3.302
Highest voltage measured......3.304

of course this is the flat area of the curve so... no surprises here I guess. Will still have to check balance at upper...or probably in my case lower side of discharge knee....


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I must be blind DIYguy, but where did you get your CALB cells? You have a tightly matched set and the documentation is a nice touch.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Please say US distributor in Pomona, Please say US distributor in Pomona... (Chanting)


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm interested in the answer to this too, was this a special request from your distributor(if so which distributor) or through CALB? It would be great to know the factory test results of the cells. I thought JRP3 had some closely matched Sky Energy cells but it looks like these are matched even closer.

I'm also impressed that they are pretty much 200Ah cells, I knew they were a little above, but figured something in the 190 to 195 range instead of 198 to 200, NICE!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I just received the test report for my 67 Calb 180 Ah cells. I asked them to match them as close as possible WRT capacity and internal resistance. Its a pretty well detailed report. I was hoping for something half this good. I'll give you the highlights.....67 cells tested.
> 
> lowest Ah rating.....................198
> highest Ah rating ...................200
> ...


That is a nice grouping, I don't think you'll need to worry about any balancing issues, but I'm a bit surprised at the level of resistance. My 100ah cells were generally lower than that, between 0.28-0.33, and the data for the 180ah cells in that shipment showed even lower resistance of 0.20-0.26 over 262 cells. I would expect the new cells to be as good as or better than that.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I just received the test report for my 67 Calb 180 Ah cells.


 Wow, 1% range on capacity for 67 cells! They should stay very nicely balanced. Take care of that pack!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I must be blind DIYguy, but where did you get your CALB cells? You have a tightly matched set and the documentation is a nice touch.


Hi EV,
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/anyone-purchase-powerscaner-yeti-46890.html

Powerscaner. FOB China.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

todayican said:


> Please say US distributor in Pomona, Please say US distributor in Pomona... (Chanting)


Actually no. I wanted to go with them...but Keegan wouldn't match the price I got from Powerscaner. Even FOB china price wasn't there. But, this could be a good outlet for ppl in the USA. FWIW, I did get him down to $1.23/Ah for US goods.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> I'm interested in the answer to this too, was this a special request from your distributor(if so which distributor) or through CALB? It would be great to know the factory test results of the cells. I thought JRP3 had some closely matched Sky Energy cells but it looks like these are matched even closer.
> 
> I'm also impressed that they are pretty much 200Ah cells, I knew they were a little above, but figured something in the 190 to 195 range instead of 198 to 200, NICE!


Yes, but I suspect something closer to 180 Ah at higher discharge rates. I stressed to them many times that I wanted the test report for all cells and I wanted them matched as close as possible in capacity and resistance.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That is a nice grouping, I don't think you'll need to worry about any balancing issues, but I'm a bit surprised at the level of resistance. My 100ah cells were generally lower than that, between 0.28-0.33, and the data for the 180ah cells in that shipment showed even lower resistance of 0.20-0.26 over 262 cells. I would expect the new cells to be as good as or better than that.


HeyJR,

Yes, I was pretty happy with the report. I suspect the higher resistance than what you were seeing maybe due to my repeated requests for matching the cells. I still think it is better to have them all close like this....for several reasons. As you well know, you won't get more than your weakest cell anyways. You could have 1 weak cell and it will determine your pack capability. I have to thank you for some of your earlier posts that led me down this road..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad I was able to help, I spend a lot of time pushing these keys, nice to know it does some good occasionally I did expect the larger cells to have lower resistance than the smaller ones across the board, that's certainly how they have scaled in the past. 50ah cells have higher resistance than 100ah, 100ah higher than 180ah, etc. but your 180's are higher than my 100's. Not that I think it's a problem but it's the opposite of what I expect and I'd like to know why.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...50ah cells have higher resistance than 100ah, 100ah higher than 180ah, etc. but your 180's are higher than my 100's. Not that I think it's a problem but it's the opposite of what I expect and I'd like to know why.


I thought it was the opposite of that, based on what I recall, not that I've sat down and studied it...
*
Edited: I misread what you said, thought you were saying the smaller cells had lower resistance. How did I do that? Senior moments??? Only 47!*


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Sorry for the format...but the first two numbers are serial and barcode. Column 3 is resistance, 4 is voltage and last one is Ah capacity for all 67 cell.

1 10112555x 201012140110 0.31 3.303 199 
2 10112507x 201012140111 0.33 3.304 198 
3 10112454x 201012140112 0.33 3.303 199 
4 10112943x 201012140113 0.31 3.303 199 
5 10113554 201012140114 0.31 3.303 198 
6 10112648x 201012140115 0.33 3.303 199 
7 101117008x 201012140116 0.34 3.303 198 
8 10112313x 201012140117 0.33 3.303 200 
9 10111604x 201012140118 0.34 3.303 198 
10 10112604x 201012140119 0.34 3.303 198 
11 10118163 201012140120 0.35 3.303 199 
12 10113445 201012140121 0.31 3.303 200 
13 10112701x 201012140122 0.31 3.303 198 
14 10112739x 201012140123 0.31 3.303 199 
15 10112878x 201012140124 0.31 3.303 199 
16 10112928x 201012140125 0.34 3.303 198 
17 10111946x 201012140126 0.31 3.303 199 
18 10097301 201012140127 0.31 3.303 200 
19 10112600x 201012140128 0.32 3.303 199 
20 10097699 201012140129 0.35 3.304 198 
21 10096636 201012140130 0.36 3.303 200 
22 10112666x 201012140131 0.33 3.303 199 
23 10112858x 201012140132 0.32 3.302 198 
24 10112602x 201012140133 0.36 3.303 199 
25 10112933x 201012140134 0.32 3.303 199 
26 10112546x 201012140135 0.33 3.303 199 
27 10112548x 201012140136 0.35 3.303 199 
28 10112709x 201012140137 0.33 3.303 198 
29 10112957x 201012140138 0.31 3.302 198 
30 10112303x 201012140139 0.35 3.302 200 
31 10112624x 201012140140 0.33 3.303 200 
32 10112879x 201012140141 0.31 3.303 198 
33 10112264x 201012140142 0.36 3.303 199 
34 10113480 201012140143 0.31 3.303 198 
35 10112370x 201012140144 0.34 3.303 199 
36 10113492x 201012140145 0.31 3.303 199 


37 10112692x 201012140146 0.31 3.302 199 
38 10112573x 201012140147 0.32 3.302 199 
39 10088995 201012140148 0.35 3.304 198 
40 10112615 201012140149 0.34 3.303 200 
41 10112654x 201012140150 0.32 3.303 198 
42 10112867x 201012140151 0.31 3.303 200 
43 1011246x 201012140152 0.32 3.303 199 
44 10112209x 201012140153 0.34 3.303 199 
45 1011914x 201012140154 0.36 3.303 200 
46 10112490x 201012140155 0.35 3.303 200 
47 10112485x 201012140156 0.35 3.303 198 
48 10111989x 201012140157 0.34 3.304 198 
49 10112649x 201012140158 0.33 3.303 199 
50 10112496x 201012140159 0.33 3.303 200 
51 10112838x 201012140160 0.31 3.303 198 
52 10113522x 201012140161 0.32 3.303 198 
53 101117007x 201012140162 0.31 3.304 198 
54 10112377x 201012140163 0.34 3.303 198 
55 10112419x 201012140164 0.34 3.303 199 
56 10112883x 201012140165 0.31 3.303 199 
57 10104041 201012140166 0.36 3.302 198 
58 100810901 201012140167 0.36 3.304 200 
59 10112735x 201012140168 0.31 3.303 198 
60 10112509x 201012140169 0.32 3.304 200 
61 10112922x 201012140170 0.31 3.302 198 
62 10112599x 201012140171 0.35 3.303 200 
63 10111939x 201012140172 0.33 3.303 200 
64 10112904x 201012140173 0.32 3.302 199 
65 10112550x 201012140174 0.33 3.303 198 
66 10112463x 201012140175 0.34 3.303 198 
67 10112118x 201012140176 0.36 3.303 199


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I thought it was the opposite of that, based on what I recall, not that I've sat down and studied it...


That's what the test numbers showed on the SE data sheets I have, the bigger the cell the lower the resistance.


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## 2cv (May 12, 2009)

Hi!
I live in Norway and has a 72V Calib package in my Citroen 2CV. It is now -20c here and very cold for the cells. When it goes 2C out of the cell drops down to 2.6V After a few km capacity goes up because there is some internal resistance in the cell and the heater itself slightly. I do not get charged the cell op to 100% when it is so cold. Plans to install the heating cables in the battery boxes this spring


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Looking at the poll numbers I'm a little surprised. I haven't seen that much on Hi Power but a couple of threads. I got a quote from HP for 1.18/Ah including shipping to my door and busbars. 

Keegan at Calb would only let his go at 1.23 which included NO busbars and NO shipping to my door. Said Calb isn't very interested in competing on price. 

I've been working Calb and Hi Power. Both have impressive numbers but I've only seen test results I posted elsewhere that Rickard did showing Calb outperforming TS ie less heat buildup on discharge (lower IR), higher maintained voltage level etc. and another test by Calb showing some impressive life cycle testing, appearing like you may get 2000 cycles at 100% discharge!
*
So any idea why HP is showing so poorly? Do not very many people use HP? Love to get your input! *I may place an order today and I'd love to feel MUCH better about the selection.

*For a 37KW pack, HP is about 1100 less than Calb after adding freight and busbars to Calb, about 9 % less!
*


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

HP is more of a new player on the scene than CALB so there are fewer people with experience. I think it's as simple as that. CALB has done a better job of matching cells than TS, and they come in nicely over spec. The jury is still out on HP.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Hmm, given recent news, those CALB 160s coming in at 198 to 200ah.
12% or more over..
US distributor, makes them look pretty good...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

todayican said:


> Hmm, given recent news, those CALB 160s coming in at 198 to 200ah.
> 12% or more over..
> US distributor, makes them look pretty good...


I didn't pay 12% over. I paid less than his HP quote also


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

This has probably been posted everywhere, but can you either post, or pm me CALB's rep's contact info?
Thanks


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

todayican said:


> Hmm, given recent news, those CALB 160s coming in at 198 to 200ah.
> 12% or more over..
> US distributor, makes them look pretty good...


He said they are are 180Ah cells.

198/180=10% Which is pretty sweet, especially when you do the math for how much you paid for the actual Ah in the cells. Of course you might get less on high discharge as mentioned earlier but it's sweetens the pot when we have something come in over its nominal rating.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm going with Calb. Pains my pocketbook!  

I've not seen actual test data on HP cells. Rickard says he tested them a while back and they were very inconsistent so he stays away from them. Won't even test them anymore unless they change formulation.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

All 3 ( TS, CALIB, Hi-Power) have very close prices...


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Florida is a big state. Where are you or your shop located ??Thanks


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Boca Raton, South Florida. http://1-ev.com/contact.aspx 

Also, we have added more info on our website, please look...


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

I think we are getting _Thunder Sky and CALIB on top of the list, please post your opinions... and VOTE ....
_


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> All 3 ( TS, CALIB, Hi-Power) have very close prices...


But price isn't everything. I decided on Calb in December. From what I've seen their quality is higher, internal resistance is lower as well, two good things right there.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> But price isn't everything. I decided on Calb in December. From what I've seen their quality is higher, internal resistance is lower as well, two good things right there.


You know, stating why we chose what we chose is a good point to add. 

I chose Thunder Sky mostly because the manufacturer was providing better online documentation at the time (early 2010.) Not only was clear information on charging and discharge characteristics posted but even stuff like the MSDS for the cells and some destructive test information. The higher allowed charging voltage was also a consideration, though I'm not so sure the real tolerance to charging voltage is as different as the manufacturer charging specifications would lead one to believe. 

I believe my 60 amp hour cells have an internal resistance between 1.2 and 1.5 milliohms which makes them stiffer than lead. In the future I will consider CALB again, in part because they now make a 70 amp hour cell in the same size format as the TS 60 amp hour cell (also CALB used to make a 60 amp hour cell in that size.)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I contacted Calb with a question re the electrolyte breakdown temperature. Somewhere around 50-60C is where it starts generally in Lifepo4. When this happens it coats the Anode with the breakdown materials which reduces capacity. 

I also asked him whether they need to be banded or just secured from moving around.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I also asked him whether they need to be banded or just secured from moving around.


And the answer was.... ??


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> And the answer was.... ??


He said that was a professional question and he would ask China and let me know tomorrow.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Yeah, I am waiting for these answers too. And interesting side bits:

1: ! was checking TS 2008 and 2010 Manual and they show very different chemistry components and percentages of materials. So I think the battery companies are making improvements on the fly and info does not trickle down too fast to the reps and public.

2: So we have Hi-power and their older cells had very low C ratings and maybe they are better now, maybe not.

3: Calb will not give discounts, but they under rate their AH rating. But Jack R. tried some awhile ago and says they are junk.

4: TS has been most consistent in the last 2 years, seems.

So who do we drop the $12k with?

Francis


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Sorry for the format...but the first two numbers are serial and barcode. Column 3 is resistance, 4 is voltage and last one is Ah capacity for all 67 cell.
> 
> 1 10112555x 201012140110 0.31 3.303 199
> 2 10112507x 201012140111 0.33 3.304 198
> ...


Question. "4 is voltage" Starting voltage?
"AH Capacity" How do they check this? to 2.2v or until a cell is absolutely dead? Do they include the absolute max voltage. ie amperage gotten up near 4 volts? 

How do they come up with the numbers above?

Francis


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

spdas said:


> 3: Calb will not give discounts, but they under rate their AH rating. * But Jack R. tried some awhile ago and says they are junk.*


No, Jack recommends Calb. He tested some Hi Power cells a while back and they were very inconsistent, whatever that means and he wouldn't test any more of them because of it.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> No, Jack recommends Calb. He tested some Hi Power cells a while back and they were very inconsistent, whatever that means and he wouldn't test any more of them because of it.


Thanks for correcting it, I thot he said calbs. But still in the quanundrum of which to buy. Francis


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jack, and myself, would both choose CALB. From the people who have gotten recent shipments of CALB have reported the most consistent capacity that I'm aware of. Until I see similar evidence from other vendors the choice seems obvious.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Questions and answers from Calb technical support. My questions in black.



Specifically I'm wanting to know the temperature of a battery at which the electrolyte begins to break down and coat the anode. This coating is not reversible and reduces the capacity of the battery which you probably know. I've read about this and would like to know so I can design a cooling system if needed to maximize my battery life.
 The electrolyte is LiPF6, it will not be going to break down when the temperature raise up, but if the temperature of the electrolyte being more than 80 ℃, 
it will start to boil. So the rcommendation from our techinitians is that your cooling system should begin to work when the temperature of your battery pack *exceed **60℃. (140F)
*


Is it important to band the batteries tightly together or is it ok to just secure them from moving?
 The batteries are requested to be banded tightly. If the batteries moving in different directions by pulling force, the busbar will damage the terminals and the foil inside the cell. 



I'll probably use braided tinned copper ground strap soldered to the connector lugs he sends me. Just use the ends like a washer and a portion of the lug to slide the braid over and solder it on. While I won't have any cells flopping around, they'll be snugly installed with insulation of some type around the perimeter and underneath.
​


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

What about these type of straps from EV Works?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

80 mm is the largest they have. I'll have mine side by side which will require a 4" strap (98mm). I got a quote today and I laughed. They told me $38ea with a min 100 minimum count order! I can order the ground strap from any electrical supply company and just cut the ends off the Calb straps with a short tab left to solder the braid over. By ordering a length of it I can custom make straps to jump between boxes or rows.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

would you be better off getting some copper tubing and cutting short pieces and clamping them on the ends of your ground strap and then soldering them followed by punching the hole? This would provide some mechanical support in case something got hot enough to melt the solder and the road vibration won't have a chance to crack the solder leaving a loose end. I remember reading someone suggesting this idea a while ago.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I picked up my Calb 180 Ah batteries yesterday. Purchased through Powerscaner for 1.12/ah Connectors at $1.30 each including screws/washers.

With them I received a 23 page "Use and Maintenance Manual", the Packing list document, some kind of official "Certificate of Quality", a check sheet in English and one in Chinese, and the Test Report showing, among other things, the S/N, barcode, internal resistance, OCV and tested capacity for all 67 cells. BTW, OCV was withing 0.002, Capacity varied by 0.5 to 1% and internal resistance had a max spread of 0.05 mOhms.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

That's awesome. I spoke with Calb about mine on Monday and was told they had arrived and probably today would clear customs and be shipped. Should have by late next week. Shipping ground via UPS across the country.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

I await my 7 aditional CALBs within the next days (hopefully today).
$ 1.35/Ah plus shipping, taxes, etc. the cells are not cheap.

I took a look at the 38 cells in our car and measured the cell voltage at 30A load / 0.3C. All cells were within +/-0.005Volts at about 3,23V/cell.

After 1200miles / 1800km, no initial balancing, no BMS, daily drive (~30%SOC), daily charge.
~500miles/800km charged to 3.6V/cell, adjusted the charger down to 3.5V/cell and drove another ~620miles/1000km.

I'm very glad about my choice so far and hope, the CALBs will satisfy me another 200.000 kilometers


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the report. I like reading of success with no BMS. Mine arrived this week and I hope to have racks built in the next week or two.


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## Watts Up (Jun 30, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I picked up my Calb 180 Ah batteries yesterday. Purchased through Powerscaner for 1.12/ah Connectors at $1.30 each including screws/washers.
> 
> With them I received a 23 page "Use and Maintenance Manual", the Packing list document, some kind of official "Certificate of Quality", a check sheet in English and one in Chinese, and the Test Report showing, among other things, the S/N, barcode, internal resistance, OCV and tested capacity for all 67 cells. BTW, OCV was withing 0.002, Capacity varied by 0.5 to 1% and internal resistance had a max spread of 0.05 mOhms.


How long did it take to get the cells including shipping, delivered to your door? the 1.12 per ah was in can.dollars all in?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Watts Up said:


> How long did it take to get the cells including shipping, delivered to your door? the 1.12 per ah was in can.dollars all in?


you can read about it in this thread. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/anyone-purchase-powerscaner-yeti-46890.html

It was a couple months I guess. Maybe a bit more. Christmas and their spring festival was included in all that. They came from China on a ship to Vancouver then train to Toronto....so, it takes a while.
This was all in US $ (which is even better for Canadians right now  )


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

*OLDEST Lithium Battery compared - Thunder Sky, CALIB, Headway, Hi-Powers, etc.*

Guys, 

Who has oldest lithium battery, how many Miles/Kilometers you've got on them?

Thank you.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dave Kois from Current EV Tech has said he has conversions with 5 year old lithium packs still going strong.


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Dave Kois from Current EV Tech has said he has conversions with 5 year old lithium packs still going strong.


Time is not the relevant factor, it's cycle life that concerns me and I'm guessing most other users. Is the 5 yrs in a vehicle used on Sunday once a mth during summer to drive 20 kms return trip and back on the charger? If it was a daily driver drawing the batteries down to 70%DoD and pulling 3C plus under peak load, that would be good information.

T1 Terry


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

T1 Terry said:


> Time is not the relevant factor, it's cycle life that concerns me and I'm guessing most other users.


It should be a relevant factor to consider. Even if I discharged my pack to 80%DOD every day they are supposed to last 3000 cycles. 3000 days is over 8 years. Will the calendar life "kill" the battery before cycle life does? Even a 5 yr old pack driven gently is useful info to give an upper end to the calendar life question.

I know I definitely considered calendar life when replacing my pack. $800-1000 for a lead pack or $5000 for a LiFePO4 pack?


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

The real question is the quote cycle life of 3,000 to 5,000, these tests seem to have been at 0.3C, not very useful info for an EV. The weight of a battery pack and the size of the vehicle required to fit it to be able to stay under the 0.3C limit just doesn't scale up, it would require creeping off the mark with a max reduction drive and virtually flat land travelling at fairly low speeds. 
Jack Rickard even seems to be blinded by the figures (or possibly the sponsorship) for his pick up truck conversion. 70 x 400ah thundersky cells would weigh up around a ton of batteries without the weight of the monster it's powering, it surely won't be under the 0.3C spec. I thought there may be some interesting info come from that but he only plans to run the batteries for 12 mths till the lithium sulphur batteries become available.
There seems to be a lot of used LiFeP04 coming up on the market now, they haven’t been around that long to have lasted for 3,000 to 5,000 cycles have they? 

T1 Terry


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

T1 Terry said:


> The real question is the quote cycle life of 3,000 to 5,000, these tests seem to have been at 0.3C, not very useful info for an EV. The weight of a battery pack and the size of the vehicle required to fit it to be able to stay under the 0.3C limit just doesn't scale up, it would require creeping off the mark with a max reduction drive and virtually flat land travelling at fairly low speeds.
> Jack Rickard even seems to be blinded by the figures (or possibly the sponsorship) for his pick up truck conversion. 70 x 400ah thundersky cells would weigh up around a ton of batteries without the weight of the monster it's powering, it surely won't be under the 0.3C spec. I thought there may be some interesting info come from that but he only plans to run the batteries for 12 mths till the lithium sulphur batteries become available.
> There seems to be a lot of used LiFeP04 coming up on the market now, they haven’t been around that long to have lasted for 3,000 to 5,000 cycles have they?
> 
> T1 Terry


I have a set of 50 200Ah Calb batteries I'm installing now. My normal cruise will be less than 0.3C for probably 80% of my driving so it does apply to EV's is you size them properly. The other driving will be climbing hills and sometimes when accelerating. What I believe will really disappoint a lot of folks is those who buy small Ah batteries and routinely drive them at 1-2C for normal driving with frequent 5C spurts. Their cell life I fear will be much shorter than 3000 cycles, maybe even less than 1000!

I'm working to cut weight on the truck which will reduce the current demand even further. From the specs I've seen, the larger battery you use the more efficient they are due to reduced IR. This also translates to less energy wasted on heating batteries. Hopefully the new range will put me in the 100 Mile Club!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> What I believe will really disappoint a lot of folks is those who buy small Ah batteries and routinely drive them at 1-2C for normal driving with frequent 5C spurts.


That's me  Well I rarely go over 3C but I do average about 1C. However since I don't drive it for about 4 months of winter I still expect to get at least 8 years of service. I figure by then I'll be able to upgrade to better and cheaper cells anyway, if not sooner.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Hope they do last a while for you. I suspect though by the time you're ready to buy another set we will be using another technology. There are some promising technologies in the news pretty frequently nowadays. 

Oh I've told my neighbor about your Fiero. He has a white one I'd like to help him convert. So did you have a hard time fitting that many batteries it it? He doesn't have kids and has other vehicles so he could maybe use the back seat but a Fiero doen't have a back seat does it?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm all for different technology, whatever is better and cheaper, but I suspect it still may be lithium based.
No back seat in a Fiero, but lots of hiding places for batteries, especially the 100ah size. I've got 36 cells, I'm moving them all into the engine bay, I could double that at least using the gas tank tunnel, bottom of the trunk, and up front.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Look, how Volvo manages to run electric car in -30C, 

They using GNC as heat source, what a concept.... http://1-ev.blogspot.com/2011/04/see-how-volvo-c30-electric-tested-in.html 

My 2c
-Y


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

ALSO, HERE IS Battery Cooling Module: http://www.visteon.com/products/auto...y_cooling.html


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

*A123 playing hard to get*

Just wondering if anybody has every actually managed to buy anything from A123. I quite like their 23kwh energy core pack but their website makes it pretty obvious who they like to do business with. Does persistence pay off if you resort tot he telephone or is it a lost cause? Even getting data is hard work, does anyone know the weight of this pack?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think anyone has been able to purchase directly from A123.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

They have a POLICY to sell to the OEMs ONLY, HA HA HA, while CALIB (CALB) sells direct with CC pay... and makes $$$ 

Plus they (123) have $$$ cost, compare to the Headway performance/weight ratio ...

If you have 6 fig budget, then you can call them and THEY will take it.... OR you are .GOV or .MIL

my 2c
-Y.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> They have a POLICY to sell to the OEMs ONLY, HA HA HA, while CALIB (CALB) sells direct with CC pay... and makes $$$
> 
> Plus they (123) have $$$ cost, compare to the Headway performance/weight ratio ...
> 
> ...


 OT but I see you have a web site. Why don't you list parts and prices and sell from the site?


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> OT but I see you have a web site. Why don't you list parts and prices and sell from the site?



We are manufacturing parts that cannot be bought off-the-shelf, custom parts only...

-Y.


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

OR..
you could just contact Andy at FalconEV and get your very own A123 20Ah prismatic's. NOT from china ! They are made in korea.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Falcon are you saying these are A123 cells made by A123 systems?


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

who else ?


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Are they on the warranty?


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

cells are checked before shipping
After you get them... your responsible for them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So that means no warranty.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> So that means no warranty.


Ooo, ooo I want some!!! No warranty? Not for me then. I'm looking to replace the lead battery in my Harley. Harley batts are priced such that lithium is just a bit more without any BMS.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Warranty is VERY important !!!


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys,

We've got 61 Voters - that is GREAT!!!

Please vote, so EV community can see YOUR opinion !!! 

Thank you.
-Youri


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys, 

Do you know that *Thunder**sky* has been broken on Winston Batteries limited (http://www.thunder-sky.com) and Sinopoly Battery Limited (http://sinopolybattery.com)

Also, as of 04 Jul 2011, Sinopoly Battery Limited has Suspension of Trading http://sinopoly.todayir.com/attachment/20110704093202001231981_en.PDF


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

Does this mean the poll now has to be split into Thundersky and Winston? My vote is for Winston LYP chemistry cells. I've been testing the 90ah cells but only for house batteries in a motorhome at the moment, the one for the hybrid assist motor are still in their box. At the power levels required in a motorhome house battery pack these cells are outstanding compared to lead acid. All the way down to 80%DoD the cell voltages stayed above 3.25v under a 25amp load.

T1 Terry


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

I think it would be the good idea, but I do not know if Moderator will allow to modify poll to accommodate that.

-Y


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm a little confused, if Winston Chung left, which one is he running now. Sinopoly or Winston Battery. The descriptions of this seem misleading, is Winston battery company the one that he is no longer part of. ...a bit ironic that the company that just fired its main man for selling majority has recently changed its name to the name of the person gone. ...or am I not understanding this right. I'm really trying to figure out the logistics of who is where.

...also interested in which one provides less voltage sag under load now between 'Cost A Less Built'(To throw in the rumored new name Chinda Aviation Lithium Battery), Sinopoly, Winston cells, and HiPower cells. I suppose I should include GBS cells too but they demand a tad more money and some cells seem bulkier. Also curious about low temperature discharge performance as well so I can live with heating the cells less. Now I'll be buying 4 different cell brand samples to test. Stuff sure doesn't stay the same for long in this industry.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

MN Driver said:


> I'm a little confused, if Winston Chung left, which one is he running now. Sinopoly or Winston Battery. The descriptions of this seem misleading, is Winston battery company the one that he is no longer part of. ...a bit ironic that the company that just fired its main man for selling majority has recently changed its name to the name of the person gone. ...or am I not understanding this right. I'm really trying to figure out the logistics of who is where.
> 
> ...also interested in which one provides less voltage sag under load now between 'Cost A Less Built'(To throw in the rumored new name Chinda Aviation Lithium Battery), Sinopoly, Winston cells, and HiPower cells. I suppose I should include GBS cells too but they demand a tad more money and some cells seem bulkier. Also curious about low temperature discharge performance as well so I can live with heating the cells less. Now I'll be buying 4 different cell brand samples to test. Stuff sure doesn't stay the same for long in this industry.


Winston is with the Winston Battery and with his patents...
Sinopoly - I do not know...

We will see tech data....

-Y.


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

If you can believe the stuff put out by the factories the LYP cells from Winston Battery Company have the better low temp output and lest voltage sag but only real world testing is going to verify that. looking forward to the test results MN Driver.

T1 Terry


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

From what I read quickly in the Sinopoly annual report, Sinopoly supplied TS with cells at us$ .50ah or less. Sinopoly expanded revenues 23x in 2010 but also now has enormous losses, so suspended trading. Don't know how accurate my quick reading of the annual report was, but seems TS may not be in a good position with Sinopoly closing or reorganizing.
Francis


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"looking forward to the test results MN Driver"

Sorry, I'm on the sidelines until I can start my project with the necessary funding and time to start and finish during the non-cold season, next spring hopefully. Since CALB now has the gray cells on their site I'd have to decide between the grays and the blues as well. If I were to put my money on any specific cell without buying samples and testing it would be CALB because they seem to handle short 10 second bursts to 5.5C without sagging below 2.5v which during good weather would be plenty for my needs. Since I have time, I'll sample test prior to the big purchase.

I have however found someone at my local EAA chapter who has bought 2 100Ah samples each of CALB and Winston batteries that were delivered not long ago and I'm looking to do a freezer temperature load test between the two but I just need to see if he is up for that type of testing. My freezer gets down to -20f which is as cold as it gets in Minnesota so if I can manage to get him to have me test them I can find out if an EV could theoretically crawl home or how much they heat themselves under heavy load or how they behave in those conditions. ...after all he bought them to see which was more suitable. It isn't really up to me as they aren't my cells but I would like to have an idea for trying to calculate how cold I could have an EV and still be able to drive it if I either didn't have a heater and just had insulation, or if the heater failed, or if I needed to park the car for a week in the winter and come back to see how bad it might be upon my return.

If I can manage that sort of test it wouldn't be too scientific and might be somewhat accurate based on my tools available to test. It might just be a 15 second draw but if I can pull a minute without blowing my resistive element I might be lucky. I can test up to 500 amps but I know they won't do that frozen and my target is to know what they can do without sagging below 2.5v. If a cell sags to 2v and is pushing 500amps, the cell itself becomes a ~600watt heater internally, problem is that such a heavy load on a cold cell could easily create hot spots and leave other areas cold and those hot spots could possibly get too hot and damage portions of the cell so 2.5v seems much safer to me.


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

> My freezer gets down to -20f which is as cold as it gets in Minnesota


 If the temp drops to single digits in centigrade around here everyone thinks the world will end :lol: Not sure why anyone would choose to live in a climate that drops to -28C 

T1 Terry


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Keeps your A/C needs down  A little -28C once in a while is good for you, builds character


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

T1 Terry said:


> If the temp drops to single digits in centigrade around here everyone thinks the world will end :lol: Not sure why anyone would choose to live in a climate that drops to -28C
> 
> T1 Terry


-20f or -28c is the design minimum temperature used in my area, basically the definition is the coldest day of the year. If I'm driving an electric car that day and I want to get home, I will need to know how much insulating and heating to keep the battery warm enough to get me home with a safe level of acceleration. Typically a -20f period is very quickly broken in the morning when the sun hours hits and usually it is that cold for less than 8 hours while pretty much everyone in the country is sleeping. Beyond the worst day it is -10f or -23c usually around the early hours right before the sun comes up for about a week out of the year. Beyond that, usually the lowest we get during daylight hours is -15c or so.

The climate here only has sub-zero(Fahrenheit) extremes during the day rarely, in elementary/primary/grade school recess outside was canceled if it was below zero but realistically that only would happen once or twice a year. It depends on when you are awake to drive the car. Insulation would likely prevent the battery from ever really getting that severely cold. I'm still interested in testing all of this because I don't want to get any surprises driving home one day with a car that won't merge onto the highway after work. My EV will be setup to allow for acceleration and driving at highway speed and I'd prefer to do it at any outdoor temperature otherwise it will turn me into an apologetic EV owner who makes EVs seem unpractical. ...which unfortunately seems to happen too often which is why I want to make a car plenty capable of handling these extremes.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey guys, 
Just wanted to share 2 interesting PDF docs here about LiFePo batteries, by KrissMotors, worth of reading, there are answers about Sinopoly and Thundersky:

http://krissmotors.com/ebooks.php 

My 2c..
-Y.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for the links but the PDF files downloaded okay but it seems that the files are unreadable by my PDF reader. Is anyone else experiencing this.

FYI, those files are pretty big.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The first one is only 400kb, not big at all.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Hmm seems to have downloaded now. It seems what was happening is the file would get 100k or 200k downloaded and then just crawl for a minute and then just stop but then it would show done and the files weren't readable. 1st one downloaded fine again but took a dozen tries and finally goes through that its in the middle of the night. Maybe some load-related server problems but it seems to work great now. They just seemed big before because the server wasn't providing any file size information so there was nothing to reference to when it was downloading alongside some 2 gig files.


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## Tapachoo (Jul 29, 2009)

I am days away from the purchase of a 120v, 40 cell purchose for my first EV, and I have been pondering one of three options: Thundersky (or WInston, i suppose), CALB, or GBS batteries, which I don't see mentioned here much?

Because space is tight (trying to fit 40x 100Ah cells into Beetle without removing back seat), I'm leaning towards either CALB or GBS. GBS does seem to be slightly smaller and comes with nice bards and bands for keeping packs tight.

Anyone have experience to share, good or bad, with GBS batteries?

Info on them here ...
http://elitepowersolutions.com/index.html

Or here ... (took me a while to find what I think it web site for true China manufacture vs. resale) ...

http://www.gbsystem.com/index_en.asp

Sorry if there has been discussion of this company elsewhere and I've missed it ... I ahve visited this form several times, but am still finding things!


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## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

I would be concerned with the 1,200 and 1,500 cycle life at 80% DoD compared with the 3,000 cycle life at 80% DoD quoted for the Winston LYP cells. I've been doing some testing at low current draws (0.3C) on the 90ah LYP cells and they have been better than I expected holding 3.25v past 80% DoD. Their ability to recharge at very close to the charged cell voltage (3.45v charging into a cell fully charged at 3.4v) was very impressive demonstrating they really do have very low internal resistance.

T1 Terry


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They are claiming 2000 cycles at 100% DOD for GBS cells. Rather pricey though.
http://elitepowersolutions.com/docs/GBS_batteries.pdf


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

MN Driver said:


> "looking forward to the test results MN Driver"


Ditto. Being from MN (though apparently a colder part than you if it's only -20 once a year) I'm very interested in winter performance.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

lowcrawler said:


> Ditto. Being from MN (though apparently a colder part than you if it's only -20 once a year) I'm very interested in winter performance.


Yes, it does get colder than that every year, however -20 is the 1% percentile temperature for the coldest day of the year. Minnesota has had -40 before but not repeatedly and only in one very cold city. Batteries have some thermal mass to them so for the 4-6 hours max that we might be below -20 on a very early morning January day, the batteries probably won't feel it. ...because of that -20f is my design temp. I'll also be using insulation too and at this point I don't see me going without some form of heating. I should be getting together with someone who has the cells tomorrow but the problem is I haven't been successful in getting in contact with him and I'm not sure if he can reliably get them to -20 with his freezer, I know mine gets that cold and can stay there for a day to make sure the cell is good and frosty for testing but I don't know about his.

Now that we have Sinopoly cells on the market(or at least on their way soon hopefully?) It will be another to test. I was thinking to test GBS cells but the price point puts them out of the range for me in terms of value. Even if they outperform, I already know the other manufacturers do the job with heating so paying the cost difference makes no sense for me. ..that and I've got to sort between the different generations which don't come in all sizes so I'm skipping that brand.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

I want to ask MODERATOR if it possible to separate Thunder Sky to "Winston" and "Sinopoly" even this will require to make new pol...

Also, if we could add "GBS" and "Kokam" batteries.

Thank you.
-Y.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Might as well just start a new poll, but I doubt many have used Sinopoly, GMS, or Kokam to make up a significant number.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Might as well just start a new poll, but I doubt many have used Sinopoly, GMS, or Kokam to make up a significant number.



Agreed!


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Also, What is the other people opinions?

Thank you.
-Y.


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

Sinopoly costed HK$2.75 billion to purchase Thunder Sky Battery Limited in 25th May, 2010. 
Im just from Sinopoly Battery Limited. 

Regarding the Announcements, please visit the vents "Dec 2009, The Company entered into a letter of intent to purchase a lithium battery project for HK$2.75 billion" and "May 2010, The Acquisition in relation to the lithium battery project is completed" of following link,
http://www.sinopolybattery.com/html/about_investor.php

Thunder Sky changed its name as Winston Battery Limited and still sell LiFePO4 battery. As this action has deeply infringed on our company's related benefit, Sinopoly prosecuted Winston and recommend all the customers to stop purchasing Winston battery


If you guys need lithium battery, please contact with me.
[email protected]
Skype: sinopoly.david


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> Also, What is the other people opinions?
> 
> Thank you.
> -Y.


Don't discard HiPower from the new poll. They have a whole line of new cells, increased quality controls, increased manufacturing capacity with all new equipment and finally will have US based warehouse in a few weeks with local inventory available for immediate ground shipping in US. Prices will be competitive with other prismatics.
Attached is their latest spec sheet.
View attachment HiPower_new.pdf


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The Hi Power 200 Ah cells are interesting since they are only 9.72" tall. Easier to fit under a rear seat.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'll be interested once they have their US warehouse ready because if they are friendly for providing a sample I can test it against a 100Ah CALB cell that arrived in the states just a few months back that I might be able to borrow. I don't have any loose cells at the moment for testing. I'm most interested in low temperature performance, what I can get out of them at -20f is my testing goal, although I might only be able to get to -10f in reality but it should be enough of a test. I'm going to try and track down a recent Thundersky 100Ah cell too if I can find one. This test may be months out though, really depends largely on a reliable HiPower distributor.

Edit: Now that I've reviewed the specs, The problem is that I'd likely purchase the 100Ah LX cells instead of the more powerful ones as my conversion is space limited, lightweight, will likely be high voltage, and the LX cells are smaller and lighter and although the PWs might be comparable I'm not sure I could justify the size or weight as I'd take a lighter smaller cell to be an advantage in my application. The pulse spec is a 60 second spec, if they can do a little more for 10 seconds I'm golden already. I am curious how the power cells perform but realistically I don't stand to have an advantage to test something that I know wouldn't be used by me. The comparison would likely not be considered fair.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Don't discard HiPower from the new poll. They have a whole line of new cells, increased quality controls, increased manufacturing capacity with all new equipment and finally will have US based warehouse in a few weeks with local inventory available for immediate ground shipping in US. Prices will be competitive with other prismatics.
> Attached is their latest spec sheet.
> View attachment 10793


Any idea what their life cycle claim is, dont see it on the spec sheet.

Roy


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Any idea what their life cycle claim is, dont see it on the spec sheet.
> 
> Roy


HP states 2000 cycles at 80% DOD and 1000 cycles at 100% DOD, but all these numbers are almost meaningless in real life since life cycle largely depends on temperature conditions and C rates, which differ between lab testing and reality. I would say HP cells are classic LiFePO4 prismatics and we can expect them to live just as long as their competition under similar conditions.


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

Sinopoly continually improves the technology, production facilities, production method, productivity, product performance, after service etc. 

Sinopoly has a production base in Liaoyuan city (northwest of China).We are establishing other two bases now, one is in Tianjin city, another is in Nanjing city.

Now our productivity is 700 million Ah per year. Our goal is 
Year 2012, 0.2 billion Ah per year
Year 2013, 1.5 billion Ah per year

Sinopoly LiFePO4 battery is with many perfect advantages including absolute safety, 100% A-class quality, lower internal resistance, stable performance, long cylce life, good discharge performance in low temperature (more than 90% efficiency at -20℃), high consistency etc.

Now our LiFePO4 battery models includes 10/15/20/40/60/90/100/180/200/260/300/400/700/1000Ah. 

If you have the interest in our company products or any questions, please feel free to contact with me.

David
Email: [email protected]
Skype: sinopoly.david 
Sinopoly Battery Limited


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Specs for your 100ah cells look about the same as CALB cells, how do your prices compare? How closely matched are your cells for capacity and resistance?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

sinopoly.david said:


> Sinopoly LiFePO4 battery is with many perfect advantages including absolute safety, 100% A-class quality, lower internal resistance, stable performance, long cylce life, good discharge performance in low temperature (more than 90% efficiency at -20℃), high consistency etc.
> 
> Now our LiFePO4 battery models includes 10/15/20/40/60/90/100/180/200/260/300/400/700/1000Ah.


David,

The website lists 0°C as the lowest temperature for charging. With more than 90% efficiency at -20°C what happens if the batteries are charged below 0°C? I have not been able to find a technical answer to this question.

Also, the website doesn't list anything smaller than 40Ah cells. Are the smaller cells in the new black case ones?

Thank you,


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I think David might be catching up with responding to the forum. I sent an email and got a 9 page 20Ah specsheet. 40Ah cells and larger are plastic cases, the 20Ah or smaller cells are a polymer style pouch cell. 20Ah is 185x133x9.2mm with tabs at 500 grams max weight. 10Ah is 136x88x9.2mm 250 grams max weight. The rest of the specs are listed the same as the standard cells are at 5C pulse, 3C continuous discharge and 3C charge to 3.8v and then taper current down to 0.02C.

I asked some application specific questions about the 10Ah cell and got some follow up questions about my application.

Send him an email for information and specsheets, the information is more detailed but in reality their site has all of the details for their 40Ah+ cells but you may need to ask to get the information for sizes that aren't listed.

Edit: Product testings http://www.sinopolybattery.com/html/products_testings.php


----------



## V96400A (Mar 13, 2011)

I have thus far used Headway in a 4s1p configuration and I killed them by charging them while charging from a lead acid battery. I was intentionally misusing the batteries to see how robust they were, but I only had one set, so I did not get to compare them to cells treated nicely. I also have a pack of Thunder-Sky LYP40AHA cells in 32s1p configuration. I killed one cell and almost killed another while installing them. I shorting the two cells on the motorcycle frame due to the lack of assistance and not preparing properly. I fixed that problem by using abs plastic sheets to cover the connections. I originally began using the cells without a BMS, though not by choice. I intended to purchase a BMS through Alliance, but I could not get the info I wanted, so I opted to try out just monitoring the cells using Cell Log8s. After receiving and using the Cell Logs, I will not recommend them, because 2 of them stopped functioning due to as of yet unknown reasons. Lastly, I purchased and received a Mini BMS system that I am testing on half of my battery pack. I will be updating my experience with the Mini BMS as I get data. I just finished installing them and can only say that Mike at Lithium Storage was very helpful and support and documentation from the manufacturer of Mini BMS has been great. I believe I dealt with Dmitri, who answered all of my questions quickly and thoroughly. I ran into a dead end with my tests as my variable power supply (used for charging) died.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

V96400A said:


> Lastly, I purchased and received a Mini BMS system that I am testing on half of my battery pack.


Only on half of the pack? This is NOT what you want to do! The MiniBMS draws about 6mA continuously so you will grossly imbalance your pack with no way to get the others in line unless you install the miniBMS boards on the rest of the pack. Note that 6mA=0.006A so over 24 hours they are draining 0.144Ah per day and 4.32Ah per month. If you charge so the miniBMS reaches the shunting voltage to compensate for this loss you will be over charging the other cells in your pack. Either put a BMS on each cell or don't run one at all.


----------



## V96400A (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks for the input, but I am aware of the current drain difference and have a solution for it.


----------



## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys,

So, according to all votes _*Thunder Sky* are the best batteries?

Or you want to vote more?

Thank you.
-Y.
_


----------



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Wouldn't it pretty much depend on your application and needs?

From my understanding, the CALB cells are more expensive ... but a 90ah CALB cell is going to be better (capactity-wise) than a 90ah TS cell ... but the CALB cells offer a higher acceptable 'C' rate .... but the thundersky's are slightly lighter... ... but the CALB cells are slightly smaller... etc..etc...etc... applicable to all the cells, no?


----------



## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

Regarding charge of LiFePO4 under low temperatures I have some answers. Cells should be charged directly after discharge, meaning that even if you are using them while -25*C as soon you stop just plug them to charge as they have been developed internal heat and got “working temperature”. Another scenario is to isolate them in battery box with cell-plastic isolation, the same that manufacturer use while transporting to you with addition like heating wire for floors or bathrooms that produce enough heat to keep them happy while charging. This is the wire: http://www.warmup.co.uk/

Lowcrowler, have you tried GBS cells? I think you should, they are lighter, more powerful and still performs even after passing declared Ah’s… Hm… plus they look nice, have lower volume and comes with connectors… 
Good luck wile charging from Sweden!


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

elfi said:


> Lowcrowler, have you tried GBS cells? I think you should, they are lighter, *more powerful* and still performs even after passing declared Ah’s


Hum! Where do you see that information?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> So, according to all votes _*Thunder Sky* are the best batteries?
> 
> ...


All this poll really shows is that more people have bought TS cells than any other.


----------



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

> Lowcrowler, have you tried GBS cells? I think you should, they are lighter, more powerful and still performs even after passing declared Ah’s… Hm… plus they look nice, have lower volume and comes with connectors…


You clearly missed the point of my post...


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> All this poll really shows is that more people have bought TS cells than any other.


I'm pretty sure that is the right answer. However, "Thunder Sky" does't exist anymore. The Yttrium doped cells are now sold by Winston Battery and the other half of what used to be Thunder Sky is now called Sinopoly. I'm not aware of anyone using the Sinopoly cells in an EV yet. My ThunderSky cells dated February 2010 and I believe these are the same as the current Winston cells (LiFeYPO4.) Many have used CALB cells with great success. 

CALB cells seem to come with the best cell level documentation. I think most buyers get a sheet with the capacity and internal resistance of each cell. The published data documentation for these cells only show discharge data for up to 1C discharge rates. CALB makes a 70 amp hour cell in the same size as my older TS 60 amp hour cells.

Winston cells seem to be the same as the LYP Thunder Sky cells. In fact, they still have the same part numbers. Winston publishes data for up to 5C discharge rates, like Thunder Sky used to. My TS cells are marked as LFP60AHA but my documentation indicates they re the Yttrium doped cells like the later LYP cells. I know they can take 7C peak discharge rates while holding at about 2.7 vpc. 

Sinopoly seems to be the newest cell for the EV garage. I would like to hear from anyone using these cells. I do like the fact that they make a 60 amp hour cell with the same width and depth as what used to be the standard 60 amp hour size from CALB and TS. The new 60 amp hour Sinopoly cell is 0.8 inch shorter and lighter than the old 60 amp hour cells (including the TS ones I have.)


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't forget that Jack Rickard did real world testing on TS and CALB cells that showed CALB's to a bit stiffer under load:
http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2009/12/ok-here-it-is-sag-voltage-more.html


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Yes, but I wouldn't necessarily rely on comparison of cells that where built in 2009. The Sky Energy (CALB) cells date from August 2009 and the Thunder Sky cells from some point earlier in the year of perhaps even 2008. The cells from both manufacturers seem to have improved over the years.

Rich Rudman over at Manzanita Micro could tell me the same thing based on his older testing. I don't know of any side by side tests involving cells recent cells to see how the newer TS cells (LiFeYPO4) compare to current CALB offerings. 

I know that 2010 Yttrium doped 60 amp hour Thunder Sky cells stay over 2.8 volts per cell at 5C discharge rates until pretty close to dead. I use them at up to 7.5 C now but I did a repeated tests at that point before I started cranking up my rates. I really wish someone had test results from nearly new CALB 70 amp hour cells as I could drop them in place of my 60 amp hour TS cells. If the real internal resistance at 5C + rates is 1 milliohm or less, that means over 2.9 vpc at 350 amps, it would be tempting. I don't have any brand loyalty.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Didn't Jack also do a more recent, higher C rate test of CALB's?


----------



## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

Lowcrawler; My point is that both CALB and Winston/Sinopoly have much more disadvantages than GBS for example, no matter application, plus GBS performs fully -20*C to +50*C…

Yabert; my job is in the R&D for worlds Nr.2 forklift manufacturer and abusing materials in order to found suitable is a part of everyday job. I can probably write a book about the EV’s and batteries but so much time I do not have right now. I can also say that according to my excessive abuse those batteries that are high listed and most used in this thread have lowest performance ability and stability… please do not ask for more details, and thanks for understanding…


----------



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Again, you clearly missed my point.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Please explain the advantage of the GBS cells. All the options seem to have the ability to handle continuous 3C discharges. The cells seem to be nearly the same size and weight at the other companies offerings. Even the voltage sag under load doesn't seem any better.

If I was buying right now I would most likely buy CALB cells due to consistent availability, and an extra 10 amps hours as the 70 ah cell is the same size as the older 60 amp hour cells. Each 4 cell block, with end plates added, would measure 10.4 inches by 4.5 inches, by 8 inches tall and weigh 23.5 lb. with end plates and straps (according to the current published information.) That is slightly smaller than a 4 cell block of GBS 60 amp hour cells and just 3.2 lb. heavier for an extra 10 amp hours.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

elfi said:


> My point is that both CALB and Winston/Sinopoly have much more disadvantages than GBS for example, no matter application, plus GBS performs fully -20*C to +50*C…


You'll have to explain the 'much more disadvantages'. I could say that walking to my neighbors house has 'much more disadvantages' to getting in my car and pulling into their driveway, but saying that doesn't mean anything unless you describe those disadvantages because walking would be easier and quicker.

You'll have to demonstrate 'GBS performs fully -20*C' I'd love to see a 3C chart compared to one at 20c and show the cold temperature cell performing 'fully'. ...not going to happen.


> I can also say that according to my excessive abuse those batteries that are high listed and most used in this thread have lowest performance ability and stability… please do not ask for more details, and thanks for understanding…


You say something and imply an extremely high order to what you are saying, you provide no facts such as voltage sag at a specific current or anything of any real substance to assist someone with making a fact based decision and say 'please do not ask for more details'. All you've done, as far as I'm concerned is say, 'GBS is best manufacturer #1 in all the land, #1 sales, #1 customer happy' just as a Chinese battery manufacturer would without backing anything up. If they were priced similarly or if I found any advantage to them I'd probably think about it but so far their price is far out of reach and to no significant advantage that I can see and none that you've provided.


----------



## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

I am really sorry, no graphs and no official document just a word of someone who had opportunity to play with many different batteries… and why stock to a word GBS in the sentence. If you are asking me I say No GBS is not the best, nor the Thudersky and certainly not CALB… Sorry, I do not intend to spread advertisement towards some products or manufacturers. I am just pointing in the other direction, towards some other products that are not included in this list. Anyway, before buying next time try something else like GBS or Saft or Zebra and see for yourself… 
This is one of the testing toys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whD3574H6Ls


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

elfi said:


> This is one of the testing toys:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whD3574H6Ls


Hi elfi,

Kool  Kart. Are you involved with it? What sanctioning organization does the accounting of that world record? Was it zero to 60 mph? or kph? My German ain't so good 

The cart looked impressive. We've got one set up for circuit racing. Was that guy strictly acceleration, or does he run circuits (like grand prix) also? If there is a legitimate record there for the 0 - 60, I might be inclined to alter a cart and go after it 

Regards,

major


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: OLDEST Lithium Battery compared - Thunder Sky, CALIB, Headway, Hi-Powers, etc.*



1-ev.com said:


> Guys,
> 
> Who has oldest lithium battery, how many Miles/Kilometers you've got on them?
> 
> Thank you.


I converted my 70 Vw (the first I believe) to Li-ion 18650 Sanyo cells in 2005. I used 7000 cells to achieve 130v using a DC motor. The cells have been unassembled and re assembeled in order to use a BMS. Currently have about 30,000 miles and counting. here is a picture of the packs containing the cells.


----------



## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

CALB performing for a year and no complaints ....


----------



## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey Guys who has oldest Lithium battery?

How they perform, so far?


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Only used my 42 180ah calbs 2500 miles or so since last May and all seems fine. I use mine at freeway speeds and like lots of power and although we have all choked forking out the $ for Lithium, I decided to splurge and get enuf batteries to make it a fun car, not just enuf batteries to get me by and use them 80-90% every trip. 

But my question is, what viable alternatives to this Lithium do we have?.....none.

francis


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Jukka Jarvonen on the EVDL said he has some 7 year old conversions going strong, and Dave Kois has claimed 5 year old RAV4 conversions still running. Tesla has had a few Roadsters go past the 100K mile mark, and of course Tom Moloughney took his MiniE over 70K miles.


----------



## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

The author forgot to add Sinopoly brand. Sinopoly is a newest brand which is completely different with TS. It's performance is also very good.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

sinopoly.david said:


> The author forgot to add Sinopoly brand. Sinopoly is a newest brand which is completely different with TS. It's performance is also very good.


I don't think the poll can be changed once it is set up. I believe it was setup before Sinopoly existed.

In any case, are there people in the USA who have ordered and received Sinopoly batteries? They seem hard to come by over here and several would like to see how they perform. You might consider contacting Jack Rickard of evtv.me and shipping him a few to test out on his show. It would get you some good publicity around the world.


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: OLDEST Lithium Battery compared - Thunder Sky, CALIB, Headway, Hi-Powers, etc.*



zsnemeth said:


> Sorry, slightly off topic:
> 
> Hi Cruisin,
> 
> ...


It was a fun project, however, there is no advantage in doing what I did since you can buy batteries alredy assembled now like CALB, etc. Also there is no cost saving. When I assembled the packs in 2002, there wasnt anything available that would work except the 18650 cells and A123 cells. Here are a few pictures of the packs being assembled. The packs were assembled in 16v 3p4s so the individual cells were not being monitored. Also, the charger had to be monitored to avoid a overcharge. Later a BMS (Mini BMS) was installed on each cell bank, that took care of the problem. At the time, Tesla showed a interest in what I had done and went on to use the same cell. The one advantage of the early 18650 cells was that the voltage range of a cell was 2.5v to 4.5v. Voltage sag had very little effect on the pack. All history now.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

sinopoly.david said:


> The author forgot to add Sinopoly brand. Sinopoly is a newest brand which is completely different with TS. It's performance is also very good.


David,
Welcome to the forum!!!
Nice to see you here...

This is correct, that once poll established, I cannot change it,

My 2c, -Y


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

1-ev.com said:


> David,
> Welcome to the forum!!!
> Nice to see you here...
> 
> ...


Hello Sir, never mind. If anybody wants to test Sinopoly battery, please coantact with me.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

sinopoly.david said:


> Hello Sir, never mind. If anybody wants to test Sinopoly battery, please coantact with me.


Hi there.

Just some friendly advice - if you want to improve the profile of your batteries than I'd suggest you make contact with Jack Rickard of EVTV.

Firstly - Donate (or sell) a sample set of your batteries for testing to him. 

Then if the testing works out either
A. Buy advertising on his show
B. Now that he is promoting his own store - perhaps he could become a distributor. 

Until I've seen independent testing done by someone I trust I can only recommend Calb cells to EV builders at the moment.

Is there ANYONE? out there doing testing on Sinopoly batteries?


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

drgrieve said:


> Hi there.
> 
> Just some friendly advice - if you want to improve the profile of your batteries than I'd suggest you make contact with Jack Rickard of EVTV.
> 
> ...


Sir, In fact, Richard tested our battery. But from the business aspect, he would rather like to sell WINSTON battery. Not every brand which is good or can be showed on his EV Show can be distributed by him. Business benefit is also a very important factor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jack Rickard had a sponsorship deal with Winston but I don't think that is still in effect. I don't remember Jack ever testing a Sinopoly cell, and he's stated something to the effect that he's not sure they are available and doesn't know anyone using them. You should try contacting him again. If he tests them and they test well, and he's confident of a reliable supply and a good price, he'd probably recommend them and give you some business. Even if he doesn't sell them directly many of his viewers would be interested in them.


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

Richard did tested our battery. My another colleague follow his business. But Richard still likes to sell Winston battery. In China, only CALB is our competitor, no Winston. I hope I can expand International Market soon and find a powerful distributor in US and EU.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The only cells I see for sale on his website are the A123 pouch cells, and most of the time he promotes using the CALB prismatics, which he does not sell.
http://evtvshop.projectooc.com/


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

sinopoly.david said:


> Richard did tested our battery. My another colleague follow his business. But Richard still likes to sell Winston battery. In China, only CALB is our competitor, no Winston. I hope I can expand International Market soon and find a powerful distributor in US and EU.


Jack Rickard. NOT Richard(the spelling is different), has not tested your battery. He also doesn't sell the Winston battery. Winston isn't even selling in the US at this point, it seems. This is a really good chance to send him an email because he likes the smaller size of your 60Ah and 200Ah cells. He seems to be convinced that you aren't selling to the US right now, contact him and let them know you are and offer to sell some cells for testing.

Please recheck who this Richard is, because I'm 99% sure it is NOT Jack Rickard that you or your colleague spoke too. I want Sinopoly cells, but buying direct from China and dealing with customs is a nightmare for almost all of us, especially for people like me far away from any port. If you can get someone to be a distributor here, someone who is reputable for shipping out cells, that is exactly what we need.


----------



## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

I missunderstand...Thank you, Sir, But I don't know Jack Rickard's email. Can you tell me? I contact with Justin for distributing our cells in US recently.


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## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

GizmoEV said:


> Note that 6mA=0.006A so over 24 hours they are draining 0.144Ah per day and 4.32Ah per month.


Is there a way to turn off the MiniBMS, say, for storage over winter? It would suck to have the MiniBMS take your cells down to harmful DoD levels....


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

lowcrawler said:


> Is there a way to turn off the MiniBMS, say, for storage over winter? It would suck to have the MiniBMS take your cells down to harmful DoD levels....


Sure...


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## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

lowcrawler said:


> Is there a way to turn off the MiniBMS, say, for storage over winter? It would suck to have the MiniBMS take your cells down to harmful DoD levels....


The best way I think if you don't want to use battery, you'd better to recharge battery after 2~3 months


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

sinopoly.david said:


> I missunderstand...Thank you, Sir, But I don't know Jack Rickard's email. Can you tell me? I contact with Justin for distributing our cells in US recently.


[email protected]


----------



## sinopoly.david (Sep 1, 2011)

MN Driver said:


> [email protected]


Thank you. I just opened his website and sent an email to him.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Taking a quick look your maximum C rates are not very good. Also you are spamming a lot of battery threads so you might want to slow down a bit.


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## noleanderthegreat (Nov 27, 2012)

How many people have actually used those Heter cells? I think almost nobody, especially not anyone whose opinion really has significance on this subject. Seems only newbies would consider a battery with those specs for anything. 
I wouldn't even try them out for evaluation. 

CALB-36 cells with no BMS, after top balance and daily charge/discharge cycles, the cells are very closely matched with no drift. Best LiFePO4 cell I have used. 
GBS- I haven't found anything good or bad about the cells. I have abused them and the surefire ways to kill them is charging to over 4.2 volts or bringing them under .5 volts. The problem for me is cycle life, low C rates and cost too high. I like the plastic cases that come with the 20Ah-12volt packs, and it's a very convenient way to get batteries, as they have quick shipping times.
Thunder-Sky- Garbage. My cells are utterly useless after doing an initial top balance and installing a BMS. None of the cells were over charged or undercharged, they immediately became imbalanced and nothing I tried helped that, except very low C rates (they were in a motorcycle before). Now they are used as UPS batteries, for which they aredecent, albeit expensive.
Headway-Poor cost performance, I would never buy them again. They didn't stay in balance well enough, but were not as bad as TS cells. Their cost is undeservedly high for what you get, as there isn't any benefit I can find for cylindrical cells. 

I stick with what I've tried and CALB beats all other cells by a long shot in every single category. I am using a very small pack ([email protected]) to push around my VW Beetle and they only put out a max of 350 amps, but they don't heat up excessively or seem to otherwise mind being used as such a tiny pack in a car. I would have done better with 70Ah cells, even at a bit lower voltage, as the larger Ah cells would not sag as far (from fully charged pack, mine sags to ~85 volts under WOT).


----------



## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

noleanderthegreat said:


> GBS- I haven't found anything good or bad about the cells. I have abused them and the surefire ways to kill them is charging to over 4.2 volts or bringing them under .5 volts. The problem for me is cycle life, low C rates and cost too high. I like the plastic cases that come with the 20Ah-12volt packs, and it's a very convenient way to get batteries, as they have quick shipping times.


I was looking into these cells because of their claimed 90% efficiency at -20C. I did notice the 1500 cycle life, but the C rating was 3C and 10C pulsed. Was your experience with them much less?

Seen your vid BTW. Slowed me right down. I went from add to cart, to sniffing for snake oil.


----------



## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

trukr said:


> I was looking into these cells because of their claimed 90% efficiency at -20C.


Efficiency depends on both *internal resistance*, which depends on temperature, and *power *you are (dis)charging with. Low temperature increases internal resistance and hence lowers the efficiency, but if there is only little load, efficiencies near 100% can still be achieved.

At high load currents the efficiency can be very poor in cold, but it's exactly that loss that heats up the battery and therefore increases the efficiency again.

There is no single efficiency number for batteries, at least it depends on power. There is a _maximum_ figure for a given chemistry (achieved at very low discharge currents) and for li-ion, that's very close to 100%.


----------



## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

Siwastaja said:


> Efficiency depends on both *internal resistance*, which depends on temperature, and *power *you are (dis)charging with. Low temperature increases internal resistance and hence lowers the efficiency, but if there is only little load, efficiencies near 100% can still be achieved.
> 
> At high load currents the efficiency can be very poor in cold, but it's exactly that loss that heats up the battery and therefore increases the efficiency again.
> 
> There is no single efficiency number for batteries, at least it depends on power. There is a _maximum_ figure for a given chemistry (achieved at very low discharge currents) and for li-ion, that's very close to 100%.


Thanks for clarifying this for me. Tried to read up on this a little bit, and found numbers of 0.2C to work with. On a 144V 100ah system, that would leave me with what, less than 4hp to work with continuous? I think a temp controlled battery box that can be plugged in is a must.

I guess my biggest concern is cycle life due to cold temps. If the pack's temp was stabilized during and prior to charge or discharge, will that save cycle life even if the temp is allowed outside optimum when not in use?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

When not in use pack temp won't matter but if you let all that thermal mass get low it would probably take a while to safely bring it up. You're probably best off planning enough insulation so only the outer cells ever get cold enough to need the heating.


----------



## noleanderthegreat (Nov 27, 2012)

Trukr,

The cells I have are 20Ah and they are rated for 2C continuous. The larger capacity cells are rated at 3C and the 1500 cycles is (I believe) for a single cell, whereas the GBS cells in series configurations are rated for up to 1200 cycles. GBS just doesn't seem to have any advantage that's strong enough to get me to purchase more, unless I need the 20Ah packs, which, to me, is their best buy .The 20Ah work well without a BMS for me, but I am only using them as auxiliary power for lights and such. 

I am sure that the 20Ah cells will put out 3C continuously without immediate damage, but it will probably reduce their capacity and cycle life.


----------



## elfi (Dec 20, 2010)

I have a theory why it went so bad for A123… they start producing and dealing with Kina, I did it also and this time it went really wrong:
http://victpowerbadbattery.blogspot.se/


----------



## Arthas (Jun 28, 2012)

Thx for your love for CALB.


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

well, I have some 90Ah Thundersky cells that have cycled every day in my house power set up for the last 2 yrs, still functioning well, they are combined with Winston 90Ah cells, also been cycled every day for 2 yrs, and they are still doing well.
Value for money I'd have to say Winston and Synopoly would be way out in front, the added yttrium does seem to make a difference to there ability to maintain a higher voltage under load.

T1 Terry


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Testing does not bear that out, especially with the newer CA series of CALB.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I have almost 11,000 on my pack of 50 Calb SA200Ah batteries. 

OT but I recently reduced the charging voltage to average 3.39VPC as I have about 4 cells in a pack of 50 that continue to have a higher than normal ending voltage and I'm concerned about overcharging and shortening their life. The loss of mileage may be a mile or so but that's nothing on a 100 mile pack, which I can still do easily. 

I previously had reduced the charge to 3.42 as I had trouble keeping some from spiking. I DON'T USE A FORMAL BMS if you're wondering. With an investment in the pack of over $11000, I want them to last a long time!


----------



## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Congrats, WoW !!!
I think Dimitri's miniBMS should do the job for Overcharge-Overrun protect... Just thoughts...

Also, I got the question about going through the puddles and some sort of splashes over the motor - how it handles it?



ElectriCar said:


> I have almost 11,000 on my pack of 50 Calb SA200Ah batteries.
> 
> OT but I recently reduced the charging voltage to average 3.39VPC as I have about 4 cells in a pack of 50 that continue to have a higher than normal ending voltage and I'm concerned about overcharging and shortening their life. The loss of mileage may be a mile or so but that's nothing on a 100 mile pack, which I can still do easily.
> 
> I previously had reduced the charge to 3.42 as I had trouble keeping some from spiking. I DON'T USE A FORMAL BMS if you're wondering. With an investment in the pack of over $11000, I want them to last a long time!


----------



## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

I just added another cell to my 98v charger to 29 cells (3.379vpc), and I was pleasantly surprised of the extra ump I got from it.

Kind of weird, cant explain except the voltage stays higher at load.

I have a single speed rear end axle.


Roy


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

1-ev.com said:


> Congrats, WoW !!!
> I think Dimitri's miniBMS should do the job for Overcharge-Overrun protect... Just thoughts...
> 
> Also, I got the question about going through the puddles and some sort of splashes over the motor - how it handles it?


I'll pass. Don't at this point see a need for one. I have OTHER means of monitoring/preserving pack health. As the pack continues to age however I may see a need for one.

Re the puddles, I have belly pans installed under the motor and transmission and for 19,000 miles, water hasn't been an issue.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> 19,000 miles


Wow!!! Do you have GAS saving numbers minus electric cost, just for NON EVs guys to see, what we are talking about ...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Last check was 21 cents/mile. Depends on fuel cost of course and it's dropped lately. The last four months of the year I drove about 5000 miles and saved I think it was about $1350 AFTER PAYING MY INSURANCE for the additional vehicle and electric costs. If I could keep that up, and I may now that I've gotten my "issues" straightened out with the motor and controller, that's over $5000/year.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

HMMM. 
Do you guys know what happened to CALB USA http://calibpower.com/ ?

It looks like no page and no link from Chinese website http://en.calb.cn/ where it said "CALB USA" , but registration shows it valid until 2014...http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=calibpower.com&prog_id=GoDaddy


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Maybe they updated their web server and forgot to edit the default settings to point to their website.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

I dropped Keegan at Calib Power a note and he said they're redoing their website and will be back up in a few weeks.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

njloof said:


> I dropped Keegan at Calib Power a note and he said they're redoing their website and will be back up in a few weeks.


Hope so


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

njloof said:


> I dropped Keegan at Calib Power a note and he said they're redoing their website and will be back up in a few weeks.


Wow...that's sad. Someone should tell them they can update the site offline, then load it when it's ready.

I'd be happy to do so...for a nominal crate of cells


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Someone should tell them they can update the site offline, then load it when it's ready.


I am doing websites too, look at my sig.. and I do not know anyone (professional) that would consult the client to go offline for ANY time, not say for several days or weeks... its like say: "Please go offline, loose ALL your business and then we upload your new website" - Funny how some people think... 

just my 2c... -Y.


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