# [EVDL] Which motor for high performance from a 3300 pound car ? (Tesla Roadster)



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I want to build a fast electric car that weighs about 3300 pounds. I am
looking for sub 4 second 0 to 60 MPH and 13-14 second 1/4 mile times.

The Tesla Roadster weighs about 2700 pounds and uses a 185 KW peak power
motor. Using that as a benchmark, I would want a motor that could deliver
250 KW peak. Where do I find one ?

What do you think the continuous power rating is on the Roadster motor ?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think that there are a great many options depending on the
car you start with ("glider" vs. kit car or other homemade car) and
the amount of money you have available. People have had good success
with using 2 or more motors in the performance arena- the example of
John Wayland's "White Zombie" and of Otmar Ebenhoech's (sp?)
"California Poppy" come to mind. Both IIRC use two smaller (6.7 inch
diameter on the Zombie) motors, taking advantage of the Zilla
controller's ability to control two motors at once. I don't know
offhand of any controller capable of controlling more than 2 motors at
a time. Maybe someone else on the list does?
There is a great wealth of DC motor knowledge here. I don't
know about particular specs but vendors include Advanced DC and
NetGain. Metric Mind sells an array of AC motors, inverters and other
components.



> me2 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I want to build a fast electric car that weighs about 3300 pounds. I am
> > looking for sub 4 second 0 to 60 MPH and 13-14 second 1/4 mile times.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

BTW a blog comment here:
http://www.switched.com/2007/06/14/lightnings-new-electric-gt-roadster/

claims that the Tesla's motor is rated for 50KW continuous.



> Andrew Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I think that there are a great many options depending on the
> > car you start with ("glider" vs. kit car or other homemade car) and
> > the amount of money you have available. People have had good success
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Andrew Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I don't know
> > offhand of any controller capable of controlling more than 2 motors at
> > a time. Maybe someone else on the list does?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's cool- I didn't realize it was that simple, as I am a n00b.
How about AC motors? Can one run multiple motors from one inverter?



> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Andrew Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I don't know
> > > offhand of any controller capable of controlling more than 2 motors at
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You could do this with a ~3000 lb car with either two 8" ADC /WarP8 motors
or a single WarP 11" motor. To correct Andrews comment the White Zombie and
California Poppy use two ADC 8" motors of sorts. The White Zombie motor(s)
are kinda like what you get after the Spartan Spear toting Jim Husted gets
done cutting them up and stitching them back together into a beautiful
looking Frankenstein like pair of Siamese twins. Otmar's 914 does 60 in
under 5 seconds, Johns in the 3.5 second range. I don't know what Steve
Clunn's Mitsubishi Mighty Max does in the 1/4 mile but the single 11" motor
and Zilla 2K on the ~ 4000# truck makes it pretty quick.

If you want to cross reference many of the fast cars go to www.nedra.com and
look at the names on all the record holders. Then look them up on the
www.evalbum.com.

Not an all inclusive list but in general look at all the cars running Caf=
=E9
Electric Zilla 2K controllers (and even some of the Z1K-HV and -EHV). Then
look to see what type/kind of motor they are using. There are 70 of them. =


There are also fast cars running other controllers and various motor
configurations but you'll have to search those out unless someone from the
AC side would point some of them out to you.

For a general comparison when considering multiple (series wound) DC motors
I think of twin 6.7" motors on par with a single 9", twin 8" motors on par
with a single 11" motor and twin 9" motors on par with a single 13" motor.
Benefits to the smaller motors is higher redline RPM and ability to
electrically configure them in either series or parallel. A benefit to the
single larger motor is ease of install and coupling and lots of Zero RPM
torque. =


HTH
Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of me2
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:42 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Which motor for high performance from a 3300 pound
> car ? (Tesla Roadster)
> =

> =

> I want to build a fast electric car that weighs about 3300 pounds. I am
> looking for sub 4 second 0 to 60 MPH and 13-14 second 1/4 mile times.
> =

> The Tesla Roadster weighs about 2700 pounds and uses a 185 KW peak
> power
> motor. Using that as a benchmark, I would want a motor that could
> deliver
> 250 KW peak. Where do I find one ?
> =

> What do you think the continuous power rating is on the Roadster motor
> ?
> =

> =

> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Which-motor-for-
> high-performance-from-a-3300-pound-car---%28Tesla-Roadster%29-
> tp15830149p15830149.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> =

> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for setting me straight, Mike. That was a foolish
mistake on my part as I should have rememebered the "Siamese 8",
having eyeballed it on a couple of occasions and read lots about it.
How's the Pinto coming along?



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > You could do this with a ~3000 lb car with either two 8" ADC /WarP8 motors
> > or a single WarP 11" motor. To correct Andrews comment the White Zombie=
> and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is there a big drop in range when using an oversized electric motor (or dual
motors) for a small car when driving it gently? In other words, are larger
motors inherently less efficient? I'm thinking probably yes, but perhaps
not to the degree an ICE would be.

-----Original Message-----
You could do this with a ~3000 lb car with either two 8" ADC /WarP8 motors
or a single WarP 11" motor. To correct Andrews comment the White Zombie and
California Poppy use two ADC 8" motors of sorts. The White Zombie motor(s)
are kinda like what you get after the Spartan Spear toting Jim Husted gets
done cutting them up and stitching them back together into a beautiful
looking Frankenstein like pair of Siamese twins. Otmar's 914 does 60 in
under 5 seconds, Johns in the 3.5 second range. I don't know what Steve
Clunn's Mitsubishi Mighty Max does in the 1/4 mile but the single 11" motor
and Zilla 2K on the ~ 4000# truck makes it pretty quick.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suspect it might actually be the other way round... Using a
larger motor than necessary incurs a weight penalty to be sure, but
it's probably better than putting too many amps through a too-small
motor. There are graphs of motor torque curves under various
conditions available. Try evparts.com, probably others have more
resources to check... To really answer that question I suspect a great
many variables should be addressed. I think the short answer is "no,
there isn't- if you keep your foot out of it."
However as previously mentioned I am a n00b and look forward to
being corrected by someone who knows more.




> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Is there a big drop in range when using an oversized electric motor (or dual
> > motors) for a small car when driving it gently? In other words, are larger
> > motors inherently less efficient? I'm thinking probably yes, but perhaps
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> How about AC motors? Can one run multiple motors from one inverter?

No, each motor needs its own controller.

Fran


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> me2 wrote:
> > I want to build a fast electric car that weighs about 3300 pounds. I am
> > looking for sub 4 second 0 to 60 MPH and 13-14 second 1/4 mile times.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually (in general) the larger motors are more efficient, very slightly.

Compare

Impulse8: http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/EasyEditor/assets/warp_8_graph.jpg
Just shy of 85% in this measurement

WarP11: http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/EasyEditor/assets/warp_11_graph.jpg
Upwards of 88% in this measurement

And too, in general you don't want to carry more weight in a larger motor if the performance of the smaller motor suits your needs. But with that said small motors can pack a large punch intermittently. Google for all the coverage of the Killacycle and its twin 6.7" motors. So you want to balance your peak performance needs with your average daily driving habits. A smaller motor will heat up faster than a large motor. An underworked large motor may not even get hot to the touch.

But Andrew is probably right, you shouldn't see much, if any, range decrease by carrying a little bit larger motor. The motor efficiency increase may well be offset by the extra weight. And he's also right in that there are a greater number of variables to consider.

HTH,
Mike



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Kane <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which motor for high performance from a 3300 pound car ? (Tesla Roadster)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> I suspect it might actually be the other way round... Using a
> larger motor than necessary incurs a weight penalty to be sure, but
> it's probably better than putting too many amps through a too-small
> motor. There are graphs of motor torque curves under various
> conditions available. Try evparts.com, probably others have more
> resources to check... To really answer that question I suspect a great
> many variables should be addressed. I think the short answer is "no,
> there isn't- if you keep your foot out of it."
> However as previously mentioned I am a n00b and look forward to
> being corrected by someone who knows more.
> 
> 
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Is there a big drop in range when using an oversized electric
> > motor (or dual
> > > motors) for a small car when driving it gently? In other
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> How about AC motors? Can one run multiple motors from one inverter?

From: fsabolich <[email protected]>
> No, each motor needs its own controller.

That is common practice, but it isn't literally required. We obviously run many AC motors from the same 60 Hz supply. Two or more AC motors running the the same source try to run at the same speed. If you couple their shafts, the inverter can't tell whether it is driving one or two motors.

However, the specialized AC inverters used in EVs are explicitly designed to drive one and only one motor. The inverter and motor are a matched pair, and the software won't let you do anything different.

The only thing new is the history you don't know yet. -- Harry Truman
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom Parker wrote:
> 
> > Others have talked about the Zilla controller & various DC motors. I'll
> > point you here: http://www.evisol.com/inverter-2.html &
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> How about AC motors? Can one run multiple motors from one
> >
> > That is common practice, but it isn't literally required. We
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Metric Mind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > That is common practice, but it isn't literally required. We
> > > obviously run many AC motors from the same 60 Hz supply.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > Actually (in general) the larger motors are more efficient, very
> > slightly... Yyou don't want to carry more weight in a larger motor if
> > the performance of the smaller motor suits your needs.
> ...


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