# [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've recently purchased an S-10 pickup conversion, with a new set of
twenty Sam's Club Energizer EC8 6v 105 reserve minute golf cart
batteries (120v).

I have been driving the truck 5,10,15,20 miles and then re-charging to
"break in" the battery pack.

I am in the enviable position of having a short (4.5 mile round trip)
daily commute, which is well under the maximum range of the battery pack.


My question is about how frequently I should charge the pack. I want to
maximize battery lifetime, and I don't plan on ever needing to drive the
truck past a 50% state of discharge.

My question:
Is it better to drive it a few trips (down to 25-45%) before recharging,
to lower the total number of charges?

Or is it better to charge it every night, even if only down 10-15%
because at the lower depth of discharge the more cycles I'll get?

Or some hybrid combination of charging every night usually and once a
month drive the pack to 80% depth of discharge to "exercise" it?

Any comments?
-Jay



P.S. Some details about my two chargers:

1. A Quick Charge 110V charger (possibly the SCO -120-10), it draws
about 10 amps max. It is currently set to mode F3 (Gas & then float),
but I could re-set it to mode F2 (Gas and then turn-off). This is the
easiest charger to use, as I don't have an outdoor 240v outlet (yet).
The length of charging time doesn't matter, as it will easily recharge
from 10-25% overnight. [Also, I like being able to use my Kill-o-Watt
meter on it, as I do not yet have a way to track how much power the 240v
Zivan charger uses.]

2. A 240v Zivan NG3 "high frequency charger". To use this I have to
leave my back door cracked open with a high capacity extension cord
going from my dryer vent out to the truck. This charger appears to work
fine (I have tried it once), and after it is done charging it turns it's
fans off. However, the LED indicator light is broken, and does not light
up, so I have no indicator of how far along in the charge it is at any
point in time. It has no "mode settings" that I could find, looks to be
a plug it in and forget it type of charger.


I'm wondering about the "gas" setting on the QuickCharge, as I don't
think I actually need to do a gas/equalization charge every time if I'm
charging from a low percentage discharge, and doing one too frequently
may lower the lifespan of the pack. (Or should I gas the batteries on
every charge? I have no idea what the Zivan charger is doing.)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Jay,

I use to charge a 180 volt Trojan 245 AH battery pack every four days 
driving only 1.1 mile a day and every time I went 5 miles or more. I charge 
with a PFC-50B charger at 40 amps at 7.5 volts per battery at a 70 F in 
about 4 minutes for the 1.1 mile run. Did not temperature compensate for 
lower battery temperature, because the batteries never went below 60 F in a 
insulated battery box.

These type of batteries are rated for minimum of 1000 ampere capacity and in 
3200 cycles at that charging rate I had 6 batteries that had a reading of 
about 500 ampere capacity. The remaining 24 batteries are now in another EV 
and is still going today.

3200 cycle life is about equal to a 20% DOD according to the U.S. Battery 
Manufacturing Co. Expected Cycle Life vs. DOD. Just type U.S. Cycle Life 
vs. DOD in your search engine and it should bring this graph up.

I am now running U.S. 6 volt 251 AH and now charging them at 25 amps at 7.75 
volts per battery at a battery temperature of 60 F. every time I go my daily 
run for 1.1 mile for about 6 minutes.

Now according to the U.S. Battery cycle Life chart, I am charging these 
batteries at about 2% DOD which should give 90,000 cycles. At 1.1 mile that 
would be 130 years and 5 miles it about 5% DOD at 15,000 cycles in 40 years.

At 50% DOD, its at 1150 cycles or about 3 years.

Therefore I am going to tried these shallow DOD discharges at 2 to 5% DOD 
and see what happens.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jay Summet" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:01 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?


> I've recently purchased an S-10 pickup conversion, with a new set of
> twenty Sam's Club Energizer EC8 6v 105 reserve minute golf cart
> batteries (120v).
>
> I have been driving the truck 5,10,15,20 miles and then re-charging to
> "break in" the battery pack.
>
> I am in the enviable position of having a short (4.5 mile round trip)
> daily commute, which is well under the maximum range of the battery pack.
>
>
> My question is about how frequently I should charge the pack. I want to
> maximize battery lifetime, and I don't plan on ever needing to drive the
> truck past a 50% state of discharge.
>
> My question:
> Is it better to drive it a few trips (down to 25-45%) before recharging,
> to lower the total number of charges?
>
> Or is it better to charge it every night, even if only down 10-15%
> because at the lower depth of discharge the more cycles I'll get?
>
> Or some hybrid combination of charging every night usually and once a
> month drive the pack to 80% depth of discharge to "exercise" it?
>
> Any comments?
> -Jay
>
>
>
> P.S. Some details about my two chargers:
>
> 1. A Quick Charge 110V charger (possibly the SCO -120-10), it draws
> about 10 amps max. It is currently set to mode F3 (Gas & then float),
> but I could re-set it to mode F2 (Gas and then turn-off). This is the
> easiest charger to use, as I don't have an outdoor 240v outlet (yet).
> The length of charging time doesn't matter, as it will easily recharge
> from 10-25% overnight. [Also, I like being able to use my Kill-o-Watt
> meter on it, as I do not yet have a way to track how much power the 240v
> Zivan charger uses.]
>
> 2. A 240v Zivan NG3 "high frequency charger". To use this I have to
> leave my back door cracked open with a high capacity extension cord
> going from my dryer vent out to the truck. This charger appears to work
> fine (I have tried it once), and after it is done charging it turns it's
> fans off. However, the LED indicator light is broken, and does not light
> up, so I have no indicator of how far along in the charge it is at any
> point in time. It has no "mode settings" that I could find, looks to be
> a plug it in and forget it type of charger.
>
>
> I'm wondering about the "gas" setting on the QuickCharge, as I don't
> think I actually need to do a gas/equalization charge every time if I'm
> charging from a low percentage discharge, and doing one too frequently
> may lower the lifespan of the pack. (Or should I gas the batteries on
> every charge? I have no idea what the Zivan charger is doing.)
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jay Summet wrote:
> 
> > My question:
> > Is it better to drive it a few trips (down to 25-45%) before
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jay Summet wrote:
> > I've recently purchased an S-10 pickup conversion, with a new set of
> > twenty Sam's Club Energizer EC8 6v 105 reserve minute golf cart
> > batteries (120v).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To add another fly in the ointment is if you charge at a higher or lower ra=
te =

that will affect battery life and performance. Seems leadacid likes t=
o be hit =

hard butI'll leave that to the experts to expalin as I frequently charge=
below =

10 amps. Lawrence Rhodes..........

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The long and the short of it ...

First the short: 
Do nothing different, plug in every chance you get.
Assuming your chargers are setup correctly, this is best way to always
have a full charged pack and reduce sulfation for a longer pack life.
Full charges after a shallow discharge is a good thing.

The long of it:
Remember, you are driving around with an equivalent to a 2 gallon fuel
tank [ http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm ]. Having the 
pack always fully charged, & ready to go adds to your EV grin (a good
thing).

What little electrolyte you bubble off, you will replace during your 
monthly maintenance by adding only "Distilled Water" (Do Not Use
anything else. Water sold that states "distilled" has to be 
distilled, thus a known-quantity and quality. Besides, distilled water
is cheap, I get it for $.85 a gallon at Walmart/Kmart/Foodsco/Smart-
n-Final, etc. On pack like yours, you should never need to use more
than a half a gallon per month. You can afford less than a 1/2 a buck
a month to have a healthy pack.).

I learned a trick to make my monthly pack maintenance quick and easy.
After an overnight full charge, I unplug the AC and pull the pack
DC kill switch (opens the circuit). 

I use a Windex-like window/glass cleaner (the blue-stuff) on the tops
of the batteries (caps still on). This not only cleans them making 
them look nice for showing off, but removes road grime/grit/grease, 
and the cleaner is slightly base which will neutralize what little 
acid spray occurs during the gassing/equalizing stage. 

I take the caps/tops off the batteries setting them on a clean paper 
towel. I have a $15 dedicated garden sprayer 
http://common1.csnimages.com/lf/3/hash/3677/3492594/1/1.jpg
with the plastic spray tip unscrewed/taken off so it now squirts. I 
fill with a gallon of distilled water, a few pumps ... adding 
distilled water to the cells is now a breeze. Usually I spent more 
time yakking EVs to the public that sees me watering and just has to
ask EV questions, than the actual maintenance itself.

Fill to the internal ring 1/4" from the top, Do Not fill to the 
tippy-top, that is too much. Recap/top the batteries, and clean again
as before getting what you missed.

Connections should checked/tightened during this monthly maintenance
(things get shaken loose over time). If you see any acid corrosion 
build-up, neutralize with baking soda+water solution, clean, and apply
a anti-acid protective coating (I do not like the quickie sprays as 
they do not last. I use the thicker, dark colored anti-acid grease to 
coat connectors). If done right, I only have to apply that once when 
the new pack was put in.


Some web research tells me:
http://www.summet.com/blog/2011/02/27/s-10-electric-pickup/
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~summetj/

Some light reading for you:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html

Your Sam's Club batteries are likely re-badged Exide GC8-110 types
http://www.ebatteriestogo.com/Exide_Golf_Cart_Batteries.htm

You can find details on your Quick Charge model
http://www.quickcharge.com/Select a Charge portable new.htm

I recommend you keep the chargers at the gas, then float setting.
If you really-really want to only gas occasionally, the Quick
Charge manual states there is a charge to stop (no float) setting,
but I do not recommend using it. Don't mess with the Zivan's 
settings.

The gas/equalization phase, is a low current over charge for a couple
hours that brings all cells up to the same SOC, and the slight
bubbling churns the electrolyte reducing acid stratification. During
this phase an occasional small bubble will come to the top. It 
should not be a boiling roar of bubbles during gassing (if so 
something is not set correctly! I have seen this with the Zivan 
chargers I have had, but not with the pfc chargers I have owned).

You can find details on your Zivan NG3
http://www.zivanusa.com/NG3BatteryCharger.htm
http://www.zivanusa.com/ChargeCurve.htm

If you have access to a 220VAC 20A or better circuit (i.e. a dryer
outlet) but it is too far from the driveway, consider getting/making
an 10-3 extension cord so you can use the NG3 charger at home. If
25' or less you could get away with a 12-3 extension cord, but I 
have found you will have more uses for the more expensive, heavier 
gauge 10-3 cord.


I would verify both chargers are set correctly. That is, their 
charging stages transition at the correct pack voltages. Assuming you
have a fairly accurate DVM (meter), after a pack has finished a full 
charge, let it stand/sit for at least an hour. Take SOC measurements.
Then spend an hour taking pack voltage and charging current 
measurements.

If your two chargers are set correctly you are good to go. If not,
I suggest you don't mess with them, but get them adjusted by the 
manufacturer (especially the Zivan). I 'do' have experience with
Zivan chargers, both K and NG series. I do not have experience
with Quick Charge models.


If you decide to expand your EV grin and use public charging you
will need the appropriate adapters (i.e. J1772 to 14-50, AVCON to
14-50, etc.). Note: the NG3 220VAC charger will not work with an
EVII ICS-200 AVCON because the Auto Manufacturers required EVII 
have a circuit to sense the EV charger's power factor correction (pfc)
rating. Any charger (like the Zivan NG series) with a pfc lower than 
95% the EVII AVCON EVSE will shut off after 1.5 minutes into the 
charge. I do not know if the newer J1772 EVSE have this same 
restriction.

Looking at what public EV charging is near you in Atlanta, GA:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/stations/
Cole Electric Technology
Electric
3980 Martin Luther King Jr Dr
Atlanta GA 30336
Type: Level 2
Phone: 404-691-9119
Distance: 7.7 Miles
Intersection Directions: Located in fenced area at company warehouse
Access: Public - call ahead

http://www.mychargepoint.net/find-stations.php
Name: SIEMENS / E-FTC
Address: 200-398 Technology Dr, Alpharetta, Georgia, 30005, United States
Status as of : 2011-03-04 12:26:54 (EST)
Port 1: 120V, 16A, NEMA 5-20R:Available
Port 2: 240V, 30A, J1772:Available

http://electric.carstations.com/
Georgia Power Headquarters, Atlanta
241 Ralph McGill Boulevard NE
Atlanta, Georgia 30308
Type: Level 2 J1772



I hope this helps.
{brucedp.150m.com}



-
From: Jay Summet 
I've recently purchased an S-10 pickup conversion, with a new set of
twenty Sam's Club Energizer EC8 6v 105 reserve minute golf cart
batteries (120v).

I have been driving the truck 5,10,15,20 miles and then re-charging to
"break in" the battery pack.

I am in the enviable position of having a short (4.5 mile round trip)
daily commute, which is well under the maximum range of the battery 
pack.

My question is about how frequently I should charge the pack. I want 
to maximize battery lifetime, and I don't plan on ever needing to 
drive the truck past a 50% state of discharge.

My question:
Is it better to drive it a few trips (down to 25-45%) before 
recharging, to lower the total number of charges?

Or is it better to charge it every night, even if only down 10-15%
because at the lower depth of discharge the more cycles I'll get?

Or some hybrid combination of charging every night usually and once 
a month drive the pack to 80% depth of discharge to "exercise" it?

Any comments?
-Jay



Some details about my two chargers:

1. A Quick Charge 110V charger (possibly the SCO -120-10), it draws
about 10 amps max. It is currently set to mode F3 (Gas & then float),
but I could re-set it to mode F2 (Gas and then turn-off). This is the
easiest charger to use, as I don't have an outdoor 240v outlet (yet).
The length of charging time doesn't matter, as it will easily recharge
from 10-25% overnight. [Also, I like being able to use my Kill-o-Watt
meter on it, as I do not yet have a way to track how much power the 
240v Zivan charger uses.]

2. A 240v Zivan NG3 "high frequency charger". To use this I have to
leave my back door cracked open with a high capacity extension cord
going from my dryer vent out to the truck. This charger appears to 
work fine (I have tried it once), and after it is done charging it 
turns it's fans off. However, the LED indicator light is broken, and 
does not light up, so I have no indicator of how far along in the 
charge it is at any point in time. It has no "mode settings" that I 
could find, looks to be a plug it in and forget it type of charger.

I'm wondering about the "gas" setting on the QuickCharge, as I don't
think I actually need to do a gas/equalization charge every time if 
I'm charging from a low percentage discharge, and doing one too 
frequently may lower the lifespan of the pack. (Or should I gas the
batteries on every charge? I have no idea what the Zivan charger is
doing.)
-


--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Can-you-charge-Lead-Acid-Batteries-too-frequently-tp3335046p3336201.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The long and the short of it ...

First the short: do nothing different, plug in every chance you get.
Assuming your chargers are setup correctly, this is best way to always
have a full charged pack and reduce sulfation for a longer pack life.

The long of it:

Remember, you are driving around with an equivalent to a 2 gallon fuel
tank [ http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm ]. Having the 
pack always fully charged, ready to go is a good thing.

What little electrolyte you bubble off, you will replace during your 
monthly maintenance by adding only "Distilled Water". Do Not Use
anything else. Water sold that states it is "distilled" has to be 
distilled thus a known-quantity and quality. Besides, distilled water
is cheap, I get it for $.85 a gallon at Walmart/Kmart/Foodco/Smart-
and Final, etc. On pack like yours, you should never need to use more
than a half a gallon per month.

I learned a trick to make my monthly pack maintenance quick and easy.
After an overnight full charge, I unplug the AC and pull the pack
DC kill switch (opens the circuit). 

I use a Windex-like window/glass cleaner (the blue-stuff) on the tops
of the batteries (caps still on). This not only cleans them making 
them look nice for showing off, but removes road grime/grit/grease, 
and the cleaner is slightly base which will neutralize what little 
acid spray occurs during the gassing/equalizing stage. 

I take the caps/tops off the batteries setting them on a clean paper 
towel. I have a $15 dedicated garden sprayer 
http://common1.csnimages.com/lf/3/hash/3677/3492594/1/1.jpg
with the plastic spray tip taken off so it now squirts. I fill with a
gallon of distilled water, a few pumps ... adding distilled water to
the cells is a breeze. 

Fill to the internal ring 1/4" from the top, Do Not fill to the 
tippy-top, that is too much. Recap/top the batteries, and clean again
as before getting what you find you see you missed when the caps were
off.

Connections should checked/tighten at this monthly maintenance for
the first three months, and every six months there after (things get
shaken loose over time). If you see any acid corrosion buildup, 
neutralize, clean, and apply a anti-acid protective coating. I do not
like the quickie sprays as they do not last, I use the thicker, dark
colored anti-acid grease to coat connectors. If done right, I only 
have to apply it once when the new pack was put in.

Some web research tells me:
http://www.summet.com/blog/2011/02/27/s-10-electric-pickup/
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~summetj/

Some light reading for you:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
http://www.chargingchargers.com/tutorials/charging.html

Your Sams Club batteries are likely re-badged Exide GC8-110 types
http://www.ebatteriestogo.com/Exide_Golf_Cart_Batteries.htm

You can find details on your Quick Charge model
http://www.quickcharge.com/Select a Charge portable new.htm

I recommend you keep the chargers set to gas, then float setting.
If you really-really want to only gas occasionally, the Quick
Charge manual states there is a charge to stop (no float) setting,
but I do not recommend using it.

A gas/equalization phase, is a low current over charge for a couple
hours that brings all cells up to the same SOC, and the slight
bubbling churns the electrolyte reducing acid stratification.

You can find details on your Zivan NG3
http://www.zivanusa.com/NG3BatteryCharger.htm
http://www.zivanusa.com/ChargeCurve.htm

If you have access to a 220VAC 20A or better circuit (i.e. a dryer
outlet) but it is too far from the driveway, consider getting/making
an 10-3 extension cord so you can use the NG3 charger at home.

I would verify both chargers are set correctly, that is their stages
stop at the correct pack voltages. Assuming you have a fairly 
accurate DVM, after a pack has finished a full charge, let it stand/
sit for at least an hour. Take SOC measurements. Then spend an hour
taking pack voltage and charging current measurements.

If your two chargers are set correctly you are good to go. If not
I suggest you don't mess with them, but get them adjusted by the 
manufacturer (especially the Zivan). I do have experience with
Zivan chargers, both K and NG series. I do not have experience
with Quick Charge models.

If you decide to expand your EV grin and use public charging you
will need the appropriate adapters (i.e. J1772 to 14-50, AVCON to
14-50, etc.). Note the NG3 220VAC charger will not work with an
EVII AVCON because the Auto Manufacturers required EVII install
a circuit to sense the EV charger's power factor correction (pfc)
rating. Any charger like the NG series with a pfc lower than 95%
the EVII AVCON EVSE will shut off. I do not know if the newer J1772
EVSE have this same restriction.

Looking at what public EV charging is near you:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/stations/
Cole Electric Technology
Electric
3980 Martin Luther King Jr Dr
Atlanta GA 30336
Type: Level 2
Phone: 404-691-9119
Distance: 7.7 Miles
Intersection Directions: Located in fenced area at company warehouse
Access: Public - call ahead

http://www.mychargepoint.net/find-stations.php
Name: SIEMENS / E-FTC
Address: 200-398 Technology Dr, Alpharetta, Georgia, 30005, United States
Status as of : 2011-03-04 12:26:54 (EST)
Port 1: 120V, 16A, NEMA 5-20R:Available
Port 2: 240V, 30A, J1772:Available

http://electric.carstations.com/
Georgia Power Headquarters, Atlanta
241 Ralph McGill Boulevard NE
Atlanta, Georgia 30308
Type: Level 2 J1772

I hope this helps.
{brucedp.150m.com}



-
From: Jay Summet <[email protected]> 
I've recently purchased an S-10 pickup conversion, with a new set of
twenty Sam's Club Energizer EC8 6v 105 reserve minute golf cart
batteries (120v).

I have been driving the truck 5,10,15,20 miles and then re-charging to
"break in" the battery pack.

I am in the enviable position of having a short (4.5 mile round trip)
daily commute, which is well under the maximum range of the battery 
pack.

My question is about how frequently I should charge the pack. I want 
to maximize battery lifetime, and I don't plan on ever needing to 
drive the truck past a 50% state of discharge.

My question:
Is it better to drive it a few trips (down to 25-45%) before 
recharging, to lower the total number of charges?

Or is it better to charge it every night, even if only down 10-15%
because at the lower depth of discharge the more cycles I'll get?

Or some hybrid combination of charging every night usually and once 
a month drive the pack to 80% depth of discharge to "exercise" it?

Any comments?
-Jay



Some details about my two chargers:

1. A Quick Charge 110V charger (possibly the SCO -120-10), it draws
about 10 amps max. It is currently set to mode F3 (Gas & then float),
but I could re-set it to mode F2 (Gas and then turn-off). This is the
easiest charger to use, as I don't have an outdoor 240v outlet (yet).
The length of charging time doesn't matter, as it will easily recharge
from 10-25% overnight. [Also, I like being able to use my Kill-o-Watt
meter on it, as I do not yet have a way to track how much power the 
240v Zivan charger uses.]

2. A 240v Zivan NG3 "high frequency charger". To use this I have to
leave my back door cracked open with a high capacity extension cord
going from my dryer vent out to the truck. This charger appears to 
work fine (I have tried it once), and after it is done charging it 
turns it's fans off. However, the LED indicator light is broken, and 
does not light up, so I have no indicator of how far along in the 
charge it is at any point in time. It has no "mode settings" that I 
could find, looks to be a plug it in and forget it type of charger.

I'm wondering about the "gas" setting on the QuickCharge, as I don't
think I actually need to do a gas/equalization charge every time if 
I'm charging from a low percentage discharge, and doing one too 
frequently may lower the lifespan of the pack. (Or should I gas the
batteries on every charge? I have no idea what the Zivan charger is
doing.)
-



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| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Brucedp5 wrote:
> 
> > Do nothing different, plug in every chance you get.
> > Assuming your chargers are setup correctly, this is best way
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I had my Lawn business I got to see batteries and what they
liked and didn't like but in many ways what they like and don't like
is still a mystery . Now days I do so little driving that I haven't
bought a new battery in 3 years and just use all the old stuff I take
out of cars when I up grade them. For the 15 years that I ran my
lawn business with the electric truck, using golf cart batteries, I
got about 2 years on each pack. This was driving 20 to 30 miles a
day, towing a lawn trailer with a lawn mower. Over the years I
charged them higher Amps and had been said by a few people, 40 Amps
for a Golf Cart Battery is pretty good. Charging at 10 Amps or lower
will cut 20% off their life, ( my guess). The last 3 years of the
Lawn Business, I had the Electric Lawn Mower with a AGM Batteries and
would charge 5 to 10 times a day at 100 to 150 Amps. I never really
got to wear out a set of Batteries. I killed the first pack, after a
year, while cutting my OWN grass and leaving them plugged in.. (
dahhhh) ...Thought someones septic tank had broken...what a smell !
From the lawn mower experience and the Golf Cart batteries in my
truck, I would say that, fast charging is under rated when it comes to
taking care of Batteries. Yes letting them go flat is definitely a
nail in their coffin, but I have seen a lot of people who charged
their batteries at a low current and I don't think they are getting
the life that they could, if they charged them at a higher current.
The last 3 years of the lawn business, when I had the electric lawn
mower, I had 38 Golf Cart Batteries on the truck so that I would
have enough power on board to charge all day long. I also did a lot
of opportunity charging. I had the PFC 50 charger and any place that
had 3 yards to cut ( about an hour) I would plug in to a dryer
outlet and pump away. When I went from 20 to 38 batteries ( this
was 2 strings, with the Voltage being 114V, which dump charged my 96V
lawn mower just right, giving me a 10 min. charge time). Even though
I was still using 80% of the power in the batteries, by having 2
strings and not stressing the Golf Cart Batteries out as much as with
one string, at the end of 3 years ..one year longer than what I
normally got on the Golf Cart Batteries,...they were still doing good
when I sold the business. So, keeping the discharge rate below
75Amps for the Golf Cart Batteries seemed to give me 1/3 more life. I
was not the best "care taker" of my Hawker Odyssey's on the lawn
Mower, I was always going to work on a management system, didn't have
the famous Lee Hart Regulators and many times came home from work, so
tired that I didn't even charge them. I would get them in the
morning. I would charge them a bit, but didn't bring them up to a
full charge with equalization with all that stuff, even after a hard
day of work, and them being charged 10 times. I still have the lawn
mower now ( I had to re po my equipment as the guy I sold the lawn
business to ruined everything) and I am still using some of those
batteries today, that were on the Mower 4 years ago. In my shop, I
have 4 PFC Chargers so I can BLAST batteries with 100 Amps and look
forward to cutting the grass here at the shop whenever I can.

Steve Clunn





<
[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"



> Brucedp5 wrote:
> 
> > Do nothing different, plug in every chance you get.
> > Assuming your chargers are setup correctly, this is best way
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Those are great real life data points, thanks for posting.

Did you do any balancing on your batteries? Or did they just naturally stay in 
balance? Or did you have to top up a low battery manually once in a while?




________________________________
From: Steve Clunn <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:18:02 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?

When I had my Lawn business I got to see batteries and what they
liked and didn't like but in many ways what they like and don't like
is still a mystery . Now days I do so little driving that I haven't
bought a new battery in 3 years and just use all the old stuff I take
out of cars when I up grade them. For the 15 years that I ran my
lawn business with the electric truck, using golf cart batteries, I
got about 2 years on each pack. This was driving 20 to 30 miles a
day, towing a lawn trailer with a lawn mower. Over the years I
charged them higher Amps and had been said by a few people, 40 Amps
for a Golf Cart Battery is pretty good. Charging at 10 Amps or lower
will cut 20% off their life, ( my guess). The last 3 years of the
Lawn Business, I had the Electric Lawn Mower with a AGM Batteries and
would charge 5 to 10 times a day at 100 to 150 Amps. I never really
got to wear out a set of Batteries. I killed the first pack, after a
year, while cutting my OWN grass and leaving them plugged in.. (
dahhhh) ...Thought someones septic tank had broken...what a smell !
>From the lawn mower experience and the Golf Cart batteries in my
truck, I would say that, fast charging is under rated when it comes to
taking care of Batteries. Yes letting them go flat is definitely a
nail in their coffin, but I have seen a lot of people who charged
their batteries at a low current and I don't think they are getting
the life that they could, if they charged them at a higher current.
The last 3 years of the lawn business, when I had the electric lawn
mower, I had 38 Golf Cart Batteries on the truck so that I would
have enough power on board to charge all day long. I also did a lot
of opportunity charging. I had the PFC 50 charger and any place that
had 3 yards to cut ( about an hour) I would plug in to a dryer
outlet and pump away. When I went from 20 to 38 batteries ( this
was 2 strings, with the Voltage being 114V, which dump charged my 96V
lawn mower just right, giving me a 10 min. charge time). Even though
I was still using 80% of the power in the batteries, by having 2
strings and not stressing the Golf Cart Batteries out as much as with
one string, at the end of 3 years ..one year longer than what I
normally got on the Golf Cart Batteries,...they were still doing good
when I sold the business. So, keeping the discharge rate below
75Amps for the Golf Cart Batteries seemed to give me 1/3 more life. I
was not the best "care taker" of my Hawker Odyssey's on the lawn
Mower, I was always going to work on a management system, didn't have
the famous Lee Hart Regulators and many times came home from work, so
tired that I didn't even charge them. I would get them in the
morning. I would charge them a bit, but didn't bring them up to a
full charge with equalization with all that stuff, even after a hard
day of work, and them being charged 10 times. I still have the lawn
mower now ( I had to re po my equipment as the guy I sold the lawn
business to ruined everything) and I am still using some of those
batteries today, that were on the Mower 4 years ago. In my shop, I
have 4 PFC Chargers so I can BLAST batteries with 100 Amps and look
forward to cutting the grass here at the shop whenever I can.

Steve Clunn





<
[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



> Brucedp5 wrote:
> 
> > Do nothing different, plug in every chance you get.
> > Assuming your chargers are setup correctly, this is best way
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The equalization stage is the balancing of the pack cells.
Current is forced through both fully charged and less-charged
cells, bringing them all up to their maximum.

According to the Trojan report
http://brucedp.150m.com/evbatt.txt

"3. Equalization to 2.55-2.58 volts/cell will increase performance
and life. If the batteries are constantly undercharged, their 
performance and life will decrease. Equalization must be done 
once every 5-10 cycles. If equalization is done every cycle,
the cost per charge increases.


I interpret the 'cost per charge', as meaning electrical power cost.
I can afford a couple of pennies to always be at my best/maximum
pack capacity.

With each charger I have tried (and I have tried many), each has 
their own idea of what a PbSO4 wet-cell equalization stage is. Ask 
an EAA old-timer, and you might get about 4 Amps DC recharging 
current into the pack for 2 hours (depending who you ask).

In the late 1990's when agms were being used, for best performance
balancing circuits/smoothers were put on the batteries to balance
the agm pack.

I asked a smoother manufacturer if putting smoothers on my wet-cell
pack would be a benefit. He said yes, for him (he would sell more 
product), but also said why? ... when a simple equalization/gassing
charge would do the same thing. He would lose money, but he thought
it wiser to just have me check that my chargers are doing a proper
equalization stage.

Without a full and complete charge, no, PbSO4 wet-cell pack cells do 
not 'naturally stay in balance'. Since all cells are in series
the weaker cell determine the performance of the pack. Best to have
all of them at their peak, always. Which is why, I charge at every
opportunity.

Example:
I drove my S10 Blazer conversion EV to and from, Silicon Valley to 
Sacramento and back six different time using the public EV charging 
available (pre-j1772). Each time I would charge, while my e-meter
(now called a xantrex linklite
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=xantrex+linklite
) would say I got all my amp-hours back, but because I did not stick 
around to do a complete/equalizing charge, the pack was less-stiff
and acceleration felt mushy. After each charging toward Sacramento,
it got progressively worse. But after I stayed and charged overnight,
I got my ol' stiff-pack mojo back. Because an equalizing charge had
been performed during the night.

One of the work-around's is instead of one charger to charge all 
batteries in series, is to use multiple chargers to charge batteries
individually.

At the time years ago, I was poo-poo'd for idea because it added
extra variables that could fail. But today there are several EVs 
using multiple 12V chargers to give each battery in the pack what 
it wants. 

I suggest you read Cor's post on thread
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-tt3309742|a3311328
if you are considering such a charger design. He mentions the charger
he likes toward the end.


Lastly, IMHO the aforementioned e-meter (above) is a must for every 
EV. If not that brand/model then something to let you know how many 
amps are going/gone in or out. It is useful in many ways and well
worth the purchase price. A analog surface voltage meter is
inaccurate, thus a waste of your time, and dash cluster space. 



{brucedp.150m.com}




> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:31:09 -0800 (PST)
...
> Did you do any balancing on your batteries? Or did they just 
> naturally stay in
> balance? Or did you have to top up a low battery manually once in a while?
...


-- 
_______________________________________________
Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bruce,

Increased cost per charge is not only spending current
(and thus money) generating gas and heat in the battery
instead of in active usable charge, but also the cost
can increase because too often equalizing can lead to a
sooner demise of the batteries due to grid corrosion
and the lower cycle life means higher cost per charge.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?

The equalization stage is the balancing of the pack cells.
Current is forced through both fully charged and less-charged cells,
bringing them all up to their maximum.

According to the Trojan report
http://brucedp.150m.com/evbatt.txt

"3. Equalization to 2.55-2.58 volts/cell will increase performance
and life. If the batteries are constantly undercharged, their 
performance and life will decrease. Equalization must be done 
once every 5-10 cycles. If equalization is done every cycle,
the cost per charge increases.


I interpret the 'cost per charge', as meaning electrical power cost.
I can afford a couple of pennies to always be at my best/maximum pack
capacity.

With each charger I have tried (and I have tried many), each has their
own idea of what a PbSO4 wet-cell equalization stage is. Ask an EAA
old-timer, and you might get about 4 Amps DC recharging current into the
pack for 2 hours (depending who you ask).

In the late 1990's when agms were being used, for best performance
balancing circuits/smoothers were put on the batteries to balance the
agm pack.

I asked a smoother manufacturer if putting smoothers on my wet-cell pack
would be a benefit. He said yes, for him (he would sell more product),
but also said why? ... when a simple equalization/gassing charge would
do the same thing. He would lose money, but he thought it wiser to just
have me check that my chargers are doing a proper equalization stage.

Without a full and complete charge, no, PbSO4 wet-cell pack cells do not
'naturally stay in balance'. Since all cells are in series the weaker
cell determine the performance of the pack. Best to have all of them at
their peak, always. Which is why, I charge at every opportunity.

Example:
I drove my S10 Blazer conversion EV to and from, Silicon Valley to
Sacramento and back six different time using the public EV charging
available (pre-j1772). Each time I would charge, while my e-meter (now
called a xantrex linklite
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=xantrex+linklite
) would say I got all my amp-hours back, but because I did not stick
around to do a complete/equalizing charge, the pack was less-stiff and
acceleration felt mushy. After each charging toward Sacramento, it got
progressively worse. But after I stayed and charged overnight, I got my
ol' stiff-pack mojo back. Because an equalizing charge had been
performed during the night.

One of the work-around's is instead of one charger to charge all
batteries in series, is to use multiple chargers to charge batteries
individually.

At the time years ago, I was poo-poo'd for idea because it added extra
variables that could fail. But today there are several EVs using
multiple 12V chargers to give each battery in the pack what it wants. 

I suggest you read Cor's post on thread
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-tt3309742|a3311328
if you are considering such a charger design. He mentions the charger he
likes toward the end.


Lastly, IMHO the aforementioned e-meter (above) is a must for every EV.
If not that brand/model then something to let you know how many amps are
going/gone in or out. It is useful in many ways and well worth the
purchase price. A analog surface voltage meter is inaccurate, thus a
waste of your time, and dash cluster space. 



{brucedp.150m.com}




> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 08:31:09 -0800 (PST)
...
> Did you do any balancing on your batteries? Or did they just naturally

> stay in balance? Or did you have to top up a low battery manually once

> in a while?
...


--
_______________________________________________
Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Did you do any balancing on your batteries? Or did they just
> naturally stay in
> balance? Or did you have to top up a low battery manually once in a while?
.
I have a 10 position switch and can look at the voltage of each battery and
I also could toggle a light bulb or a small dc to dc converter to either
pump up a low battery or pull down one that was going high..When I was
working and dump charging most times I would stop charging at about 14.volts
and most yards used between 10 to 15 amp hours ,, I first had the hawker
1200 and then the 1500. Another thing I noticed was that as the pack got
older , If I didn't use the mower for a week or so they would drift apart in
voltage, i would cut 1/2 a yard and then charge just to get them warmed up ,
then they would start all looking the same again and after a 5 or 10 dump
charges they'd all come around .ahh the good old days 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqiAGU5cLjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqiAGU5cLjY

<<<Lastly, IMHO the aforementioned e-meter (above) is a must for every
EV. If not that brand/model then something to let you know how many
amps are going/gone in or out. It is useful in many ways and well
worth the purchase price. A analog surface voltage meter is
inaccurate, thus a waste of your time, and dash cluster space.>>>>>
{brucedp.150m.com}

Very true ,,, without knowing the ah of your batteries you can't tell there
real health .

Steve Clunn

Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So did you find that the dump charges would equalize the batteries, or did you 
actively balance them when doing the 5 to 10 dump charges?




________________________________
From: Steve Clunn <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 7:09:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?

> Did you do any balancing on your batteries? Or did they just
> naturally stay in
> balance? Or did you have to top up a low battery manually once in a while?
.
I have a 10 position switch and can look at the voltage of each battery and
I also could toggle a light bulb or a small dc to dc converter to either
pump up a low battery or pull down one that was going high..When I was
working and dump charging most times I would stop charging at about 14.volts
and most yards used between 10 to 15 amp hours ,, I first had the hawker
1200 and then the 1500. Another thing I noticed was that as the pack got
older , If I didn't use the mower for a week or so they would drift apart in
voltage, i would cut 1/2 a yard and then charge just to get them warmed up ,
then they would start all looking the same again and after a 5 or 10 dump
charges they'd all come around .ahh the good old days 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqiAGU5cLjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqiAGU5cLjY



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > Why does charging batteries at low current reduce their life?
> 
> I think high charging current tends to decrease the size of the crystals
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can get a hold of Nainaz Qur eshi at [email protected]

He will recommend the charging and voltage rate for your batteries. 

Roland 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can you charge Lead Acid Batteries too frequently?




> > Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > > Why does charging batteries at low current reduce their life?
> >
> > I think high charging current tends to decrease the size of the crystals
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Mar 2011 at 13:48, Chuck Hursch wrote:
> 
> > US Battery recommends C/10 ... about 23A. I'd love to charge that fast
> > ... gang up my two 120V chargers ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: David Dymaxion

>So did you find that the dump charges would equalize the batteries, or did=
you
actively balance them when doing the 5 to 10 dump charges?<

I didn't always get the chance to take care of my batteries the way I
would have liked to . Most of the time when I was dump charging , I'd
but weeding wacking or collecting the money. I had AGM's in other
cars and had done a lot more balancing with them and not gotten near
the cycles as on the lawn mower . I had over 50 yards and most got
between 20 to 30 cuts a year , some where very big and would use 2 to
3 charges to cut . If I had more time I would have set things up
better but don't know how much more life I might have gotten if I had.
I think the time between charges has a lot to do with un balancing
batteries . There difference in there self discharge gets amplified
with time , and this could also be happening with the cells inside
each battery . I did a lawn mower for a young man in South Carolina
who was very enthusiast but had very little knowledge of battery . He
has a walk behind with 4 agm's and 20 old golf cart batteries in his
trailer . He charges the GC batteries with a bad boy charger and
splits the pack in half then parallel the two to get 60v for charging
, Much to my surprise he's still running after a year . I'm putting
together a weed wacker and blower for him now. The lawn mower for me
worked out much better electric than gas for a few reasons , Lawn
mower engines use a lot more gas vs work done then cars , they also
don't last near as lone and are get replaced every few years , and
they also have to work in very dirty environment which require daily
cleaning of air filters and weekly oil changing, starter motors only
last 1/2 the life of the engine. With all that being said why are
there so few EV mowers and so many EV cars :-(..
Steve Clunn



--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Chuck (and All),
As I've posted about in the past, I was able to get a used 144VDC 30A
charger that was built by a defunct California subsidiary of Lester,
which I call the FrankenLester, and I would agree that the floodies
seemed to really enjoy it! When I needed a quick bulk charge,
especially away from home when 240VAC 50A was available, I would use
both the FrankenLester and the on-board 120VAC Zivan in the S10 pickup
at the same time.
Anyway, regarding your situation, it occurred to me while reading your
post that regenerative braking could keep the batteries happy when
only 120VAC 15 or 20A is available, especially in your area, which I
remember as being hilly? Again, as I've posted about before, I have
the poor-man's version of regen with a system that came with the RX-7,
which I later installed on the truck:
http://www.evalbum.com/tech/regen.jpg
This is a system that could be added to an existing DC series motor
like yours, although now that I think about it, you probably don't
have very much existing room in your Rabbit? Just something for people
to think about when considering a grid upgrade.
-- =

Suck Amps,
Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins
Check out our website!
http://bbevs.com/

> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:48:18 -0800
> From: Chuck Hursch
>
> Hi Roland,
>
> Yes, I've already had my direct discussion with Nawaz. Several months
> ago, maybe a year or more ago by now. US Battery recommends C/10, which
> for my 96V pack of US2200XCs, which are rated at about 234A-hr at the
> C/20 rate, is going to be a recommended charging rate of about 23A. I'd
> love to charge that fast, and have in the distant past, when I'd be out
> in the "field" (ie. at one of the EAA meetings a good 25 miles or better
> from home). Would gang up my two 120V chargers (K&W and Zivan) and get
> about 27A to the pack. The batteries would lap that current up, and go
> yippee!, we're ready to rock! It really wakes them up. 65mph down t=
he
> freeway without breaking a sweat for about the first 10 miles, and then
> you'd start to feel the fatigue build up. I can only imagine how
> charging with a real 240V charger (or multiple 240V chargers) cranking
> in 60, 70, or even 100A into the pack off of a juicy 14-50 outlet would
> wake them up. I feel like Bob Rice talking here. I know Bruce
> Parmenter could chime in with some memories from his S-10's charger
> bank. And I remember Stan Skokan charging with four of his isolated
> 240V chargers for 100A into his 96V 6V-FLA pack in his postal van at EAA
> E. Bay rallies back in the mid to late '90s.
>
> Fact is, though, at home here at the apt., all I have is a 20A 120V NEMA
> 5-20 outlet (in the ceiling of the carport underneath the building, no
> less). NEC derating for that is 16A, which is what my installing
> contractor back in 1994 wrote on the spec sheet (cost me $500 to get
> that outlet).
<snippage>
> Chuck

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David "Battery Boy" Hawkins wrote:
> > Chuck (and All), What a great "Ampabout" post, just like the good old
> > days on the list...
> 
> ...


----------

