# Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

Unlike an ICE, the purchase price of an EV scales with the 
aerodynamic drag. The battery pack gets much larger to provide the 
same range. EVs with large frontal area and stylish high drag 
bodywork cost a lot more to manufacture and thus buy. Cost is an 
important factor in marketing.

The reason that ICE SUVs sold well is that the cost of manufacture 
was not significantly more than a tiny sedan, but the consumer saw 
value in the larger size, but did not pay twice as much for twice as 
big. In an EV, however, that cost of manufacture will scale with size 
and be reflected in the purchase price.

When style and size cause the purchase price of a specific EV model 
to soar in comparison with other competing EVs, then the typical 
consumer will opt for the smaller, more aerodynamic, and thus less 
costly vehicle.

It is interesting to see automakers and also EV start-ups discover 
that the basic metrics of vehicle marketing change when you move to 
electric power. Many of them learn the hard way.

Bill D.






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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

Please correct me if wrong, but aerodynamic drag at highway speed
(65mph) is not the only kWh eater that demands a more costly higher
capacity pack, thus a more expensive e-SUV purchase price. 

My 1985 S-10 Blazer was a serious wind pusher, and can not compare to
today's more aerodynamic designed SUVs
http://www.distrocars.com/search/Most+efficient+Aerodynamic+SUV

When you want to take the whole family on a long trip in comfort and be
able to also carry all their crap as well, that takes a big vehicle
(like two vehicles in one). 

That means more weight to get up to speed, just to throw all of that
energy away by braking for the next red light (regen only regains 5-8%
of that energy used to get up to speed). Plus all the added friction
loss from bigger tires, brakes that might drag, and driver-train losses.
I think Bill also meant/inferred the above losses be included when he
said aerodynamic drag.


Considering what is being asked of of an e-SUV, that huge vehicle does
pretty well just to satisfy the whims of a driver who wants to feel like
he is driving his living room down the road ...

(it has everything: rear hatch that automatically opens or closes from
the remote, cup holders at every seat, wifi, USB ports, TV/multimedia
system with 1000W surround sound, sat nav, Internet console built-in,
cell-phone cradle with hands-free interface, seats that remember and
adjust to each driver's butt preferences, and it's AI tells you it
LOVE's YOU when you get in ... ).


You'd "Buy That For a Dollar" wouldn't you?
...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=85cL1HisrNc


{brucedp.150m.com}




-


> Bill Dube wrote:
> > Unlike an ICE, the purchase price of an EV scales with the
> > aerodynamic drag. The battery pack gets much larger to provide the
> > same range. EVs with large frontal area and stylish high drag
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*



> On 31 May 2012 at 18:04, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> 
> > When you want to take the whole family on a long trip in comfort and be
> > able to also carry all their crap as well, that takes a big vehicle (like
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I agree David idyllically that isn't what EVs are for, but you and I are
not talking in 'real world' terms. As in, the public has been told/sold
by TV commercials, they 'NEED' an SUV to be happy (by the way, TV ads
are tailored to the region they are broadcast, so they are different
from area to area). 

The above applies, from families with four or more members (2 adults & 2
children, or more), to a single man that wants to spend all of his
paycheck showing that he can afford a large guzzler to party with his
buds, and also use as his date-mobile.

I can confirm this with the experiences I have in my daily-exercise
walks around my local (Silicon Valley - SF area) shopping center parking
lots that not only let me see what the general public is driving but
also interact with them to get a quick question or two in as they load
up, and before they dash off to go dance in traffic. 

Even with regular going for $4.40/gal, the ratio of SUVs to more
efficient vehicles is about the same. Those more efficient vehicles have
gotten leaner and meaner (i.e.: econ-boxes, Fiat 500, etc.), but the
SUVs are what we are talking about here: A vehicle that you use to take
the family on trips (that can be to the corner store, around town as a
family, or farther - not necessarily over a 100 miles per trip).

Here is what I see, the images are mostly of the back as that is what I
see the public as they are piling the crap they just got on top of the
crap they always carry around with them:

http://i.oodleimg.com/item/2954933963u_2x424x360f_2008_chevrolet_tahoe/?1331297465

http://pics.hoobly.com/full/Y4VKPHCLJHIUNYYA11.jpg

http://ibizblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Beware-the-black-SUV.jpg

http://www.matt-hughes.com/images/orpheum/IMG_1585.jpg
Yup, about out of every 40 SUVs, there is a Hummer (what a tank).

But they all are carrying the same number of a passengers and junk, and
in the same way. Just each owner has a different amount of cash flow or
reason to show off that cash flow. And these are at regular shopping
centers for the average local California John/Jane Doe.

That buying segment of the vehicle market drives a SUV for
short/day/long trips to lug around both the family and their junk. Same
as 'EVs are here to stay', so are drivers of efficient sedans,
work-trucks, family-SUVs, etc. whether they be fuel or Electric. And the
type of mentality those SUV drivers have, suggesting that they rent a
mini-monster for trips, just does not fly when they daily-drive their
fully tricked-out family-monster-mobile.


Once the driver switches to an Electric SUV, they will enjoy the $aving$
and have no problem dropping $ on Level-3 charging. That is why GM is
push their flavor of L3 over Japanese CHAdeMO, GM not only envisions
selling e-behemoths that will require quick L3, but they want their
European-type of L3 so they keep more of their profits (they have
agreements already in place to do that - GM does not want to pay the
Japanese to use CHAdeMO).


Even Otmar just posted he would like L3 ability on his sedan EV for the
occasional long run
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Has-anyone-found-a-source-for-the-level-3-vehicle-tp4655242p4655281.html

Now if Otmar converts his zippered-dual stretch-van to Electric, then we
may have to do an intervention :-o
http://www.joyhecht.net/photostuff/VWcards/Otmar-Stretch.gif


{brucedp.150m.com}



-


> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 31 May 2012 at 18:04, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > > When you want to take the whole family on a long trip in comfort and be
> > > able to also carry all their crap as well, that takes a big vehicle (like
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I'm not a fan of leasing either, but I do like the idea of having a
flexible lease.... little two seater commuter for most days, but
occasionally, I could swap it out for the 7 seater monster SUV, when the
whole family goes on a trip.

Ironically, that's exactly what I'm looking at now... all of my ICE
vehicles are either small efficient ones, or are large cargo vehicles that
only get used when I need to haul 10,000 lbs, not people haulers, and I'm
trying to take my brother and sister in law and his family on a road trip,
with my family, in July.... I don't own anything that'll seat that many
people  But... I only need it for about a week, not all year.

Z

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
[email protected]> wrote:

> I agree David idyllically that isn't what EVs are for, but you and I are
> not talking in 'real world' terms. As in, the public has been told/sold
> by TV commercials, they 'NEED' an SUV to be happy (by the way, TV ads
> are tailored to the region they are broadcast, so they are different
> from area to area).
>
> The above applies, from families with four or more members (2 adults & 2
> children, or more), to a single man that wants to spend all of his
> paycheck showing that he can afford a large guzzler to party with his
> buds, and also use as his date-mobile.
>
> I can confirm this with the experiences I have in my daily-exercise
> walks around my local (Silicon Valley - SF area) shopping center parking
> lots that not only let me see what the general public is driving but
> also interact with them to get a quick question or two in as they load
> up, and before they dash off to go dance in traffic.
>
> Even with regular going for $4.40/gal, the ratio of SUVs to more
> efficient vehicles is about the same. Those more efficient vehicles have
> gotten leaner and meaner (i.e.: econ-boxes, Fiat 500, etc.), but the
> SUVs are what we are talking about here: A vehicle that you use to take
> the family on trips (that can be to the corner store, around town as a
> family, or farther - not necessarily over a 100 miles per trip).
>
> Here is what I see, the images are mostly of the back as that is what I
> see the public as they are piling the crap they just got on top of the
> crap they always carry around with them:
>
>
> http://i.oodleimg.com/item/2954933963u_2x424x360f_2008_chevrolet_tahoe/?1331297465
>
> http://pics.hoobly.com/full/Y4VKPHCLJHIUNYYA11.jpg
>
> http://ibizblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Beware-the-black-SUV.jpg
>
> http://www.matt-hughes.com/images/orpheum/IMG_1585.jpg
> Yup, about out of every 40 SUVs, there is a Hummer (what a tank).
>
> But they all are carrying the same number of a passengers and junk, and
> in the same way. Just each owner has a different amount of cash flow or
> reason to show off that cash flow. And these are at regular shopping
> centers for the average local California John/Jane Doe.
>
> That buying segment of the vehicle market drives a SUV for
> short/day/long trips to lug around both the family and their junk. Same
> as 'EVs are here to stay', so are drivers of efficient sedans,
> work-trucks, family-SUVs, etc. whether they be fuel or Electric. And the
> type of mentality those SUV drivers have, suggesting that they rent a
> mini-monster for trips, just does not fly when they daily-drive their
> fully tricked-out family-monster-mobile.
>
>
> Once the driver switches to an Electric SUV, they will enjoy the $aving$
> and have no problem dropping $ on Level-3 charging. That is why GM is
> push their flavor of L3 over Japanese CHAdeMO, GM not only envisions
> selling e-behemoths that will require quick L3, but they want their
> European-type of L3 so they keep more of their profits (they have
> agreements already in place to do that - GM does not want to pay the
> Japanese to use CHAdeMO).
>
>
> Even Otmar just posted he would like L3 ability on his sedan EV for the
> occasional long run
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Has-anyone-found-a-source-for-the-level-3-vehicle-tp4655242p4655281.html
>
> Now if Otmar converts his zippered-dual stretch-van to Electric, then we
> may have to do an intervention :-o
> http://www.joyhecht.net/photostuff/VWcards/Otmar-Stretch.gif
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> -
>


> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > > On 31 May 2012 at 18:04, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > > > When you want to take the whole family on a long trip in comfort and be
> > > > able to also carry all their crap as well, that takes a big vehicle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

When I purchased my Leaf ten months ago, I decided it didn't make sense to 
pay to register, insure and maintain my ICE vehicle. That would cost me 
about $500 per year.

Instead, when I need to go beyond that range of the Leaf, I rent a car. I 
have had to do this three times in the last ten months. Tomorrow, I will 
park my Leaf in a long term parking lot at the San Jose airport for $11 
and rent a car for a day from Budget for $10 + fees (about $20 total). 
All together I'll spend $31 plus gas (I'm not sure I remember how to get 
gas).

The car I rent isn't as nice as my Leaf, but if something happens to it 
when I'm 100 miles or more from home, I can just call Budget and say come 
bring me another car and deal with this one yourself. I couldn't do that 
if I were using my own car.

Ed




> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > On 06/01/2012 10:28 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > > Ironically, that's exactly what I'm looking at now... all of my ICE
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

Hi Ed,

Good call. I agree completely.
I wonder how you can rent a car for a day below $20,
you'd have to tell me (off list).
The other way to occasionally get an ICE is an informal
car-share where you strike a deal with a neighbor to
borrow his car on occasion (while he can use your EV)
or a formal car-share such as "Get Around" (starting at
$5 per hour) or Zipcar (from $8 per hour).

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Ed Blackmond
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom

When I purchased my Leaf ten months ago, I decided it didn't make sense
to pay to register, insure and maintain my ICE vehicle. That would cost
me about $500 per year.

Instead, when I need to go beyond that range of the Leaf, I rent a car.
I have had to do this three times in the last ten months. Tomorrow, I
will park my Leaf in a long term parking lot at the San Jose airport for
$11 and rent a car for a day from Budget for $10 + fees (about $20
total). 
All together I'll spend $31 plus gas (I'm not sure I remember how to get
gas).

The car I rent isn't as nice as my Leaf, but if something happens to it
when I'm 100 miles or more from home, I can just call Budget and say
come bring me another car and deal with this one yourself. I couldn't
do that if I were using my own car.

Ed




> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > On 06/01/2012 10:28 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > > Ironically, that's exactly what I'm looking at now... all of my ICE
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*



> Ed Blackmond wrote:
> > When I purchased my Leaf ten months ago, I decided it didn't make sense to
> > pay to register, insure and maintain my ICE vehicle. That would cost me
> > about $500 per year.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I did this too. I would rent an ice for long trips rather than beating
up my EV. Too bad, the public has a hard time seeing the sense of doing
that. Next time I yack at the Leaf sales force, I will ask if they
suggest that to their customers.


{brucedp.150m.com}



-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Ed Blackmond
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:45 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom
> 
> When I purchased my Leaf ten months ago, I decided it didn't make sense
> to pay to register, insure and maintain my ICE vehicle. That would cost
> me about $500 per year.
> 
> Instead, when I need to go beyond that range of the Leaf, I rent a car.
> I have had to do this three times in the last ten months. Tomorrow, I
> will park my Leaf in a long term parking lot at the San Jose airport for
> $11 and rent a car for a day from Budget for $10 + fees (about $20
> total). 
> All together I'll spend $31 plus gas (I'm not sure I remember how to get
> gas).
> 
> The car I rent isn't as nice as my Leaf, but if something happens to it
> when I'm 100 miles or more from home, I can just call Budget and say
> come bring me another car and deal with this one yourself. I couldn't
> do that if I were using my own car.

-

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I realize many folks who have suvs/trucks/jeeps don't need them... they just want them.
I would like to see these types of vehicles offered as EVs. To me, it makes more sense
to drive an EV suv vs an ICE suv. At least the energy that you're wasting is cheaper
and you're wasting less of it percentage wise.

My point was that if it was easy to store electricity, then we could have ev's
that make today's car buyers happy (even if they don't know what's best for
themselves). Maybe someday, these folks would buy a more sensible vehicle,
but for now, it would be great if they had an EV alternative that they wanted.

-ben



> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> 
> > I did this too. I would rent an ice for long trips rather than beating
> > up my EV. Too bad, the public has a hard time seeing the sense of doing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*



> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> 
> > I did this too. I would rent an ice for long trips rather than beating
> > up my EV. Too bad, the public has a hard time seeing the sense of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I think this is what everybody wants, but I think there is a problem with
this as it applies to EVs. One of the beneficial things about ICE vehicles
is that they have so much more power and capability than is normally needed.
If you want to tromp the throttle, they can respond instantly with 3X the
power. Sure, your gas mileage will suffer, but the capability is there to
call on easily.

Unfortunately, this also leads to the inefficiency of the ICE vehicles.
They are dragging around all this extra equipment for the 10% of time that
people want or need it.

However, EVs are much more efficient and parts are expensive, so they are
designed much closer to the actual required design margin than the "wouldn't
it be nice" margin of ICEs. This is what makes an electric SUV a tough
device to sell. Because of the aerodynamics, size and weight of the SUV
body, you find yourself with 2x the cells (or 2x the size) to get the same
range of a smaller vehicle. This means $8K in batteries becomes $16K in
batteries (lithium). This quickly starts to become real money! The same
factor happens (although to a lesser extent) when sizing the electric drive
motor.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Ben Jarrett
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 8:16 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom
> 
> 
> 
> I realize many folks who have suvs/trucks/jeeps don't need them... they
just
> want them.
> I would like to see these types of vehicles offered as EVs. To me, it
makes
> more sense to drive an EV suv vs an ICE suv. At least the energy that
you're
> wasting is cheaper and you're wasting less of it percentage wise.
> 
> My point was that if it was easy to store electricity, then we could have
ev's
> that make today's car buyers happy (even if they don't know what's best
for
> themselves). Maybe someday, these folks would buy a more sensible
> vehicle, but for now, it would be great if they had an EV alternative that
they
> wanted.
> 
> -ben
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I tried that response of 'How fast does yours go?' and they thought I
was being an jerk. Since that wasn't my goal, I mentally took a couple
of steps back, to know what they are really telling you is they think
EVs are golf carts/nEVs, and they want to know if EVs can now drive on
the highway. 

So, I changed my response to de/reprogram their knowledge of EVs by
responding with, ' ... its a real car, it is not a golf cart, it goes
real highway speeds on the freeway, ... 

And as their facial changes showing they are about to say, 'Really, I
thought ... '

I quickly continue by saying I have driven my EV to Sacramento and back
(a 300+ mile round trip) six different times using public charging. Now,
if you want performance, their are high speed tire burning EVs ...

I look at their eyes, and if that peeks their attention, them I tell
them about nedra.com and we are off and running with their interest in
burning rubber using an EV.

Thank you nedra folk for helping the EV cause: their website URL is easy
to convey, has all the performance/record-breaking facts-n-figures, and
eye-candy to turn ice-heads around. 


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> harry henderson wrote:
> > one of the top five questions i get wrt to my EVs are, "how fast does it
> > go?" i like to reply; "i don't know, how fast does yours go... have you
> > attempted to push it as far as it will go?"
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

Good idea Ed.
When I do my next periodic check of my local Nissan dealership, I will
use Ed's idea. 

If they are not warm to the idea, I will try a different approach by
suggesting they could have an arrangement with the Enterprise rent a ice
desk at that dealership (there is a cluster of associated dealerships
there that likely leverage off common synergies. The rental desk is
likely there for to satisfy their high-end/business or
devastated/stranded customers).

The key is to approach the right sales rep. Some talk a mean game, but
you can read their body-language to know the ones that if there is
no-immediate-profit-for-them they will only nod at you, and the
good-idea will not get communicated to management. At some dealerships,
trying to talk directly to management has been difficult, as they think,
that is what sales reps are for, to interface with the customers ...

It can be a challenge to get good, common-sense ideas like Ed's though. 
But good EVangels will keep trying.


{brucedp.150m.com}



-


> Ed Blackmond wrote:
> > Better than asking that they suggest this concept to their customers,
> > suggest they offer the loaner service to their customers. That might
> > even help sell the Leafs.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom*

I answer that by saying: "I don't know for sure. It will go at least 75
mph. I've had it to 75 on the freeway and it could still go faster." 

That is the fastest freeway in the area and the fastest one could drive on a
public road without risking a ticket. That is usually enough. I think it
also gets them thinking that they probably haven't had their car past 75 or
80 mph in its life.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 1:12 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] AMP Electric SUV Conversions Get A Cincy Showroom
> 
> I tried that response of 'How fast does yours go?' and they thought I was
> being an jerk. Since that wasn't my goal, I mentally took a couple of
steps
> back, to know what they are really telling you is they think EVs are golf
> carts/nEVs, and they want to know if EVs can now drive on the highway.
> 
> So, I changed my response to de/reprogram their knowledge of EVs by
> responding with, ' ... its a real car, it is not a golf cart, it goes real
highway
> speeds on the freeway, ...
> 
> And as their facial changes showing they are about to say, 'Really, I
thought ...

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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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----------

