# Scratch - My E-bike Project



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As mentioned, the controller from the Inhaler will eventually be passed down to little brother Scratch, making it the first official part of the project. I had this in mind from the time I purchased it, because it's only 48v/300amps. I was actually thinking about doing an E-bike before the Inhaler, but decided on it for marketing purposes. JRP3 has seen renderings and models of e-bikes in PMs, and answered a million questions, while I found my way. The dream lives. 

Scratch's second part has been secured and is sitting in my office (actually the master bedroom - I don't have an actual bed or bedroom - don't need them to work ) with me now.


































It's a 6.7" diameter, series-wound, GE. Rated for 36 volts, but I plan to advance it and make my way to 72 eventually. It's not a performance/race motor, by any means, and that is a purposed plan of action - to keep me on Earth a bit longer (see comments about that in the first post). This is a functional toy, a ride-able art project. Whatever speed it's capable of is fine with me. If all it will ever do is 25mph, I'll just trailer it to parks and events and ride it like a bicycle.

That is actually the reason I have wanted an e-bike so bad. I had a mountain bike and riding it brought some of the most peaceful times I have ever had in life. Hearing nothing but a slight breeze in your ears, rocks crunching under the tires, birds chirping, etc, is surreal. It's back to nature in the most incredible way. I experienced something like it on my motorcycles, but they were loud - really loud - so the peace and tranquility was only there at triple digits when the wind noise kind of turns everything into an auditory blur. It's during those times that you can seem to hear yourself think, and life is truly blissful. Now, imagine how much time I spent at triple digits, enjoying life! As I tell people, there wasn't a day that went by for years (in good weather) that I didn't _cruise_ at 100+. I believe an e-bike can bring the same sensation amidst _sane_ circumstances...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> After pushing myself to not lose focus on the Inhaler, and finally being _that_ close to feeling it move under its own power, it's time for a little distraction!  I can't let you have all the fun Woody - with that darn tractor project!


Huh! You make it out like it is my fault!

This is looking good. I like bikes but don't have the balance to ride confidently, not helped by having a new Harley Davidson FXSTB Night Train as my first bike. It was a dud from the factory and put my life at risk more then a few times. Harley Davidson, or their dealer, wasn't interested in talking to me either so I gave up on it, paid to have it all fixed and safe, and sold it on to fund my workshop.

That motor is about the same size and power as the one on my tractor, 3.1hp at 48v. At 72v I can only imagine that it will be 'sufficient'. 

What is the cylindrical thing with the 'gear stick' poking out of it?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Huh! You make it out like it is my fault!
> 
> This is looking good...


Thanks. Let's just say you were the catalyst.  It was already bubbling in my brain, but seeing how much fun that tractor project has been brought my little dream to a boil!





Woodsmith said:


> ...That motor is about the same size and power as the one on my tractor, 3.1hp at 48v. At 72v I can only imagine that it will be 'sufficient'. ...


I was worried about whether it would have enough power to make it enjoyable until you started slamming that tractor into your work bench! I wasn't positive, but figured the motor's were similar. I think I'll have a little fun with it! 



Woodsmith said:


> ...What is the cylindrical thing with the 'gear stick' poking out of it?


On the Camaro project it came from, it was a custom ratchet shifter for the automatic transmission. It's one of the parts I have been trying to force-fit on the Inhaler since early 2008. I was trying to make it a mode selector, since going EV - forward, neutral (pot box deactivated), reverse. Since the bike won't have reverse, I am not sure what it's going to be but it _will_ be force-fit onto this project!  It might just end up being the main on/off switch. That reminds me, I haven't posted pics of those parts...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...What is the cylindrical thing with the 'gear stick' poking out of it?


I just realized that I didn't answer your question completely. The cylinder is a mock-up of the motor - size and length correct, no details, no shaft yet. The shifter is just near it out of curiosity. Trying to figure out where I want to force it onto the project. The idea is an artistic interpretation of an old-style motorcycle suicide shifter. This bike will be half-chopper/half-dragbike...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Suicide shifter. I like it.

Position seems a little far back for my tastes but I like the feet forward, arms forward stance and the shifter would be behind my butt!

This is a trike that I really like the look of. I love the clean lines.
Exile trike

I do like the look of this too:










This is what I made when I was 12


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That Exile trike is one of my favorites. I was watching the show when they were building it, and loving every second of it! You're bike looks like a serious wheelie machine! 

I'm not sure what the riding position is going to be yet. I have always been a fan of the crouched style (arms forward and low, feet tucked in tight under you) of the modern sportbikes, but that was because I was racing. It's the ultimate control position for taking the bike to/beyond its limits. For street-legal dragbikes, with no wheelie bar, this was perfect. The real drag race position is hands forward and down (but not as low as the sportbike) and feet well behind you, so you're kind of laying on the bike at speed.

The clip-on bars in the model were on the bike the last time I rode it, and that's how I would normally position them. The problem is where do I my feet. The bike is too low for the sporkbike position - feet can't tuck in under me. The bars are too low for the cruiser (hands and feet forward) position or I would be physically folded in half!  The (lay-down) dragbike position is impractical and uncomfortable on the street. I could just let my feet flop around, or sit Yoga style on the seat!


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Todd,

Enough of the Scratch musings! Some of us need our daily Inhaler fix. Seriously, though, if you and Woody keep coming up with these side projects, none of us are going to get anything done.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

electromet said:


> Todd,
> 
> Enough of the Scratch musings! Some of us need our daily Inhaler fix. Seriously, though, if you and Woody keep coming up with these side projects, none of us are going to get anything done.


Ahahaha!  We're having a blast leading you all astray! 

Seriously though, this is really helping the Inhaler be better, because I'm getting to unwind a little. I can't really do a lot right now anyway until the programming is finished on the rear mount, and the cutting starts. Even then, I will be a camera-wielding spectator - but at least I should have fun stuff to share. Being race-oriented, I don't want to do anything else on the vehicle until the motor is in place, since that's the most important element.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled distraction...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You're bike looks like a serious wheelie machine!


I couldn't wheelie it. It is difficult to see in the old b&w photo but it has drop bars behind that fairing.



electromet said:


> Todd,
> 
> Enough of the Scratch musings! Some of us need our daily Inhaler fix. Seriously, though, if you and Woody keep coming up with these side projects, none of us are going to get anything done.


It's the same here. had I not started the tractor I would have got rid of the MR2 as a bad job as 'it woz doin' me 'ed in!' not being able to sort out the factory electrics.

The tractor does seem to have taken over though hence the avatar change.


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> Suicide shifter. I like it.
> 
> Position seems a little far back for my tastes but I like the feet forward, arms forward stance and the shifter would be behind my butt!
> 
> ...


The exile Trike looks great. But seems very difficult to turn fast.
slow down before turning
Your work on 12 is quite interested anyway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

eva-michael said:


> The exile Trike looks great. But seems very difficult to turn fast...


On the show, when they built it, I noticed that they really slowed down to turn around. It stuck out to me because I was kind of wondering how a hardtail trike would handle, as they were designing/building it. The old police style trikes would want to pick up the inside rear wheel in vigorous cornering, and that style gave trikes a bad rep for a while. I rode one and wrote it off as a bad idea, until I read about the new ones. They claim that they handle so well you won't want to ride a two-wheeler again - right!


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> On the show, when they built it, I noticed that they really slowed down to turn around. It stuck out to me because I was kind of wondering how a hardtail trike would handle, as they were designing/building it. The old police style trikes would want to pick up the inside rear wheel in vigorous cornering, and that style gave trikes a bad rep for a while. I rode one and wrote it off as a bad idea, until I read about the new ones. They claim that they handle so well you won't want to ride a two-wheeler again - right!


 That's great. share me some info if you have. I will like to read about it and see how it work


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I suppose one way to turn a hardtail trike quickly is to use a lot ot throttle and keep the back wheels spinning so it power slides round. The risk is that the tires don't spin fast enough and they get traction flipping the trike on its side.

12 years old was 32 years ago for me, been making things almost all my life.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

eva-michael said:


> ...share me some info if you have. I will like to read about it and see how it work


You lost me. What info?


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> You lost me. What info?


 Sorry tod, I mean I'm interested in the new one too. If their is a driving vedio, that will be great!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I suppose one way to turn a hardtail trike quickly is to use a lot ot throttle and keep the back wheels spinning so it power slides round. The risk is that the tires don't spin fast enough and they get traction flipping the trike on its side...


Better have some torque and a well positioned Cg - better yet, a good understanding of the laws of physics while designing it!  Sounds like fun until the day you find that perfect combination that upsets your balance...



Woodsmith said:


> 12 years old was 32 years ago for me, been making things almost all my life.


You're well on your way to being an old fart like me(46)!  Same with the making things stuff all my life. I grew up with a father and uncle that built their own homes, and did just about everything for themselves, so it's natural to me. Just never took many pictures.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

eva-michael said:


> Sorry tod, I mean I'm interested in the new one too. If their is a driving vedio, that will be great!


Oh, lol! Sorry, I don't have any info. I tend to soak up a lot of miscellaneous information, without physically saving it. All I have is what's in my head, and you don't want to go too far in there!


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## eva-michael (Apr 13, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Oh, lol! Sorry, I don't have any info. I tend to soak up a lot of miscellaneous information, without physically saving it. All I have is what's in my head, and you don't want to go too far in there!


 Yep. it's just a bit curiosity for me as you say it's such a good one!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This seating position issue has been stuck in my head since page 1, so today I decided to see if I would even be able to ride this thing. I created a clunky little 3D "me" and proceeded to digitally fold myself onto this bike.








I tested the positioning, as closely as possible, from my office chair. I'm going to have to do some real-life mock-ups to see how long I can hold this position. One idea I'm considering is cutting a wooden profile of the bike that I can attach pieces to and really hash out the ideas. With a seat and a couple pieces of pipe I can sit on the mock-up bike parts, while watching TV or something, and see if any of my parts go into convulsions.

I'm small, by the way, at 5'4"/125lbs so I can fit in places normal-sized people can't. The downside, of course, is I'll be stuck with this bike until I find someone my size who likes it as much as I do. But, considering the fact that I've had it since 1983, it's not likely I will be trying to sell it anytime soon - especially if it ends up looking like the model.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

If, like me, you are developing a little middle aged paunch, you might find breathing a little difficult in that position for long periods. I find that when relaxed I am fine until I need to take a deep breath and can't.

What sort of controller are you planning?

I was speaking with Jozzer a while ago and he mentioned IIRC that some controllers control power and other control speed. The speed control causes problems on bikes when cornering. Due to holding the throttle still the motor will hold a constant speed. As the bike leans the effective rolling diameter of the tyre reduces and so the road speed of the bike slows down causing the bike to fall over.
With a power controller the power to the wheel remains the same so when cornering, and the the effective tyre diameter reduces, the motor will speed up to compensate and keep the road speed constant.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> If, like me, you are developing a little middle aged paunch, you might find breathing a little difficult in that position for long periods. I find that when relaxed I am fine until I need to take a deep breath and can't...


No pudge, no paunch - I'm a walking stick figure. My problem with the seating position is I have a very lean, muscular, build and am not the most limber person in the world. When leaning forward in my office chair I could feel the tension in my hamstrings. I need to stretch more, and may have to stretch pretty vigoruously just to ride Scratch. Being that it's electric and I won't be spending hours at a time on it, before needing a charge, will help. I am used to getting on a motorcycle and getting "lost" so my mind still thinks about how long I can spend on it.

Some of the tricks I used to use to relieve the stress won't work on this bike. I used to ride with one arm down, twisting and stretching my torso a little sometimes. I used to lay down on the tank sometimes on long highway rides. I can't do that with my feet out there, at least not while keeping my muscles in their current forms - can you spell knots!  Some of my dragbikes were also "hardtails", and my way to deal with really bumpy roads was to stand up (actually squat) over the rough stuff. Being bent forward, on a hardtail, means the jolt will go right up your spine. If I stood up my knees and ankles became temporary shock absorbers. Obvisouly can't stand up with my feet forward.

That means I'll need rear suspension. It's not a big deal, I just have to move the motor forward enough to fit a coil-over between it and the rear tire.



Woodsmith said:


> ...What sort of controller are you planning?
> 
> I was speaking with Jozzer a while ago and he mentioned IIRC that some controllers control power and other control speed. The speed control causes problems on bikes when cornering. Due to holding the throttle still the motor will hold a constant speed. As the bike leans the effective rolling diameter of the tyre reduces and so the road speed of the bike slows down causing the bike to fall over.
> With a power controller the power to the wheel remains the same so when cornering, and the the effective tyre diameter reduces, the motor will speed up to compensate and keep the road speed constant.


Dude, that is great information! I am planning to use the cheapo Alltrax I purchased to do the initial (first movements) testing on the Inhaler. After I purchase a better controler for the Inhaler, the Alltrax will be handed down to little bro Scratch. I will eventually need a controller for this project too as the Alltrax is only 48v/300amps and I want 72 volts and as many amps as my little motor can stand (for burnouts ). I am so glad you mentioned that so I wil be aware of this when looking for one. I'll do some research into it before spending any money on one.

If I really love this bike and want to _take it all the way_ I would probably replace this motor with the 6.7", hi-torque, version of the AC motor JRP3 has in his Fiero. Same size and weight, more rpm, but hopefully not enough power to make me want to race. It's a motorcycle-oriented package, so I guess they would have the power/speed thing worked out. With a nice Kokam or A123 pack it would make a nice little cruiser.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was taking a virtual cruise, and found a little digital honey along the way! 









Seriously though, I'm trying to take into account all of the intended expectations and uses. This is a very important one. I needed to know how big the seat would have to be, where the pegs should be located, and (most importantly) what size honey I'm looking for. 5'2"/110lbs or less will do.  I want to design in some type of handles that can be attached at the tank shell/main seat point. That would allow her to hold herself up semi-comfortably, without having me bear her weight when she gets tired. Been there - had one sleep on me for an hour and a half on the way home, after a long day at a regatta.

I also need to design the passenger set, handles, and pegs so they can be stored (completely hidden) inside the bodywork.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You renderings make me laugh,  I keep thinking 'thunder thighs!'.

You need to do some stretching to increase your flexibility.

Wearing Steel toe work boots (or cowboy boots with 1 1/2" heal) I can still touch my toes and then lay my palms flat on the floor behind my ankles with my legs straight. I can also do the splits.
That comes with the ability to do pull ups on three fingertips of each hand on a 1/2" ledge or the deep pointing on brickwork, with all of my 83kg and 5'10" frame (and paunch).

I spent a lot of time training with my late brother for his rock climbing.

I guess over there you have a more relaxed deal on what you call your women, over here honey comes from bees and in jars or squeezy bottles from the supermarket.
Or maybe I know too many 'right on' women.

Passenger foot pegs could be a tube inside a tube so that they telescope out when needed. You could use a linear screw actuator to power them out on remote.

Have you thought about adding suspension to the seat? The seat base/frame could be on an air spring but the upholstery could extend down to the bike frame or body panels so it looks like a conventional leather seat moulding. It would just work like bellows when you hit a bump.

The tank grab handles could be tubes on the two edges of the tank. The tank outline would have a radiused edge but where it gets to the grab position, where the tail end of the tank starts to curve downwards, the raduised edge would form into grab handles leaving a scallopped cut out in each side of the tank at the back corners. A bit like the cut outs for knees on sports bikes but with a handle over it continuing the profile line of the tank.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You renderings make me laugh,  I keep thinking 'thunder thighs!'...


Lol!  I was at the job and not supposed to be working on my e-bike plans, so the proportions aren't guaranteed to be accurate.  This is one of those times where Scratch comes in handy, helping me unwind. No pressure, no rigid boundaries, just a wide-open frontier of possibility.



Woodsmith said:


> ...You need to do some stretching to increase your flexibility...


Stretching definitely helps, and I need to commit myself to a regular regimen, but I really need a chiropractor. My neck and back are so tight and out of whack that a wrong twist or turn can send me through weeks of pain. A few weeks ago I had the worst migraine I've ever had, caused by a lumpy (muscle) swollen neck, that I think happened because something startled me out of my sleep one night, causing me to snap my head to see what was going on. I woke up with a little knot of muscle on my neck, that grew into the migraine, swelling, and two weeks of misery.



Woodsmith said:


> ...Passenger foot pegs could be a tube inside a tube so that they telescope out when needed. You could use a linear screw actuator to power them out on remote.
> 
> Have you thought about adding suspension to the seat? The seat base/frame could be on an air spring but the upholstery could extend down to the bike frame or body panels so it looks like a conventional leather seat moulding. It would just work like bellows when you hit a bump.
> 
> The tank grab handles could be tubes on the two edges of the tank. The tank outline would have a radiused edge but where it gets to the grab position, where the tail end of the tank starts to curve downwards, the raduised edge would form into grab handles leaving a scallopped cut out in each side of the tank at the back corners. A bit like the cut outs for knees on sports bikes but with a handle over it continuing the profile line of the tank.


I like the passenger peg idea, I will experiment with something like that. Have to pull it off without compromising battery space though.

I have considered a sprung seat, which is common on hardtail choppers. The main reason for them is to preserve the hardcore look of the hardtail frame, and keep the seat area cut as low as possible. With Scratch, since it's basically a dragbike chassis setup, there is no traingular frame section there to preserve, so it's kind of a toss-up between the sprung seat and a swingarm. Since the swingarm would give a better ride, I a leaning towards it - but haven't made a final decision. Eventually, I will get around to modeling the frame and suspensions, and make some final decisions.

We're probably in the same neighborhood with the passenger handles. I just have to think about how everything will look when the little honey  isn't back there, or I am not on the bike. If it's painted, it will eventually wear off. If it's bare or plated metal it has to blend in so that it looks right when not in use.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I like the passenger peg idea, I will experiment with something like that. Have to pull it off without compromising battery space though.


I'm imagining a small slow speed motor with a long shaft at both ends. The shafts have right hand and left hand threads on respectively.
The foot pegs have an internal thread to match so that as the motor spins the pegs wind in and out.
The whole package is set inside another tube with locators to ensure the motor and the pegs don't spin. Maybe the tube and pegs are not cylindrical. Maybe the tube has a cut out in the middle where the motor is accessible.
Maybe the motor is off centre to the tube. That would both locate the motor as it protrudes and prevent cylindrical pegs from rotating in the tube.
Maybe the motor has a hollow shaft and the threaded shaft is slid into it on a key or spline and retained with a circlip on each end of the motor.
Maybe the shaft is secured with a rubber bung in the motor shaft so it can slip. Then, when the pegs are at the limit of travel the motor won't be stalled or damaged.

Thinking out loud here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like the left/right hand threaded rod idea. That would be fairly easy to accomplish. Even if I did it by way of CAD/CNC to get the right ratios, etc., it wouldn't be overly complicated. By the looks of the side view, I may be able to pass it under the batteries, or between a couple stacks...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Interesting development this morning - I quit my job!  I have been struggling to balance a full-time job, full-time school, and my own business for months now. That routine was beginning to take its toll on me, and I used process of elimination to figure out which one was the worst offender. It was supposed to be a low-stress job to pay the bills so I could concentrate on school and revising my own business. I was coming home every evening so stressed out and exhausted I couldn't do anything. My grades in school have suffered, and the business has been running in place, at best.

I don't know what this means for the Inhaler and Scratch projects yet, as I haven't really figured out what I am going to do. I saved enough to cover myself for a little bit, and took the plunge.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I kept forgetting to post these pics:

This is the shifter from my old Camaro project. It topped off a B&M Megashifter that I had converted to full ratchet - one click/gear at a time from Park to 1st, and vice versa. It doesn't fit the overall theme of the Inhaler, but I think I can make it feel right at home on Scratch. I think it's going to be a ridiculously overstated on-off switch!  Completely unnecessary, but that's the point! 










This was the fuel filler trim ring, from the Camaro. It'll be countersunk into the tank shell to highlight the charging port - where the motorcycle's filler cap used to be. I have to design something appropriate to hinge in the center of it. Must be obvious that electricity is involved.










The mirrors. Couldn't see a freakin' thing with them on the Camaro, and probably won't be able to see much more on the bike. They were fun to make and looked cool acting like mirrors. I never glued the glass in because I need to replace the aluminum pivot balls - these were just handmade mock-ups I used to test and they're not very round, so they don't move too well. The sockets were never finished either. I used to tape the mirror glass in, with clear packaging tape, to drive on the street.










This piece carried the horn button in my custom steering wheel. Not sure what it will be on Scratch yet but it'll be there. Honestly, it would make a better on-off switch, but then what would I do with the other one? 










These were hood pin plates (they were recessed into pockets in the hood). I was trying to use them as pedal pads on the Inhaler. Not sure what they'll be on Scratch yet, but they be there! 









I can't believe how beat up the parts have gotten form being moved around so much. Nothing a little time and elbow grease can't solve.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I couldn't make peace with the first concept. It was soul-less. As much as I love the thought of bringing my old bike back from the grave, I guess this just isn't the time. I don't want to build a frame from scratch right now either. I also realized that I really want something with a more favorable pedigree, and more mystique, than a two-stroke UJM.

After days and days of researching and searching, I finally committed myself. I purchased a 1969 Benelli/Riverside 350 frame. It should be here in a week or so. The frame itself has that Italian flair, and when I found a picture of the whole bike on the web I was sold. Here is my plan:








The frame, tank, and seat, are the main ingredients that give the bike it's identity. I will probably model the tank and seat and have them cut in foam on the ShopBot, at the community workshop. The tank shell will be a composite cover over the controller and electronics. I am going to dig up a piece of seat foam and have them test to see if the ShopBot will cut soft foam. If so, I'll just need to make a pan and have it upholstered. If not, it'll have to cut a mold that I can fill with flexible foam mix.

I stretched the tank a bit for better balance, and likewise with the seat to cover the extended swing arm. The front suspension will be a custom girder design to allow me to drop the bike as low as possible. The swing arm and motor mounts (that are also the lower frame members) will be cast in aluminum from CAD models cut in foam. Lost foam casting is something they're big on at the shop, so I am designing with it in mind. The swing arm will likely be a group of smaller pieces that get TIG'd together.

I would like to do the battery box in cast aluminum to maintain the look of sophisticated machinery in the cavity, but that would be a lot of extra weight and cost. Ideal would be hand-formed aluminum sheet metal cases, but I don't have the time (or patience) for that - especially not to repeat it on the other side. Option three would be a composite box with aluminum leaf and a satin clearcoat. That fits the budget a little better. 

Please excuse the chicken-scratch sketching - I know it's not proper art technique, but I make my own rules in my business!


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

I think you should consider the importance of the original exhaust in defining the character of the bike in the photo. After all, the photographer chose to shoot it from the right side for a reason. It forms the single strongest line on the bike, and the forward curve also fills the gap between the frame and the front tire (I think this space is very noticeable on your sketch). It even seems to visually continue a line that starts behind the top of the engine.

I also wouldn't discount the repetition of shapes between the gas tank and the bottom of the engine.

I agree that the seat really makes the bike unique.

I'm sure you'll end up with one nice ride!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

camerondmm said:


> I think you should consider the importance of the original exhaust in defining the character of the bike in the photo. After all, the photographer chose to shoot it from the right side for a reason. It forms the single strongest line on the bike, and the forward curve also fills the gap between the frame and the front tire (I think this space is very noticeable on your sketch). It even seems to visually continue a line that starts behind the top of the engine...


It's a purely subjective thing, but I don't like the exhaust on that bike. The line out of the motor is graceful and elegant, the muffler is classy, but it looks like someone smashed the pipe and did a quick fix in between. The line gets sloppy as it pulls back away from the front wheel. It bothers me because it's hanging out in mid-air demanding your attention but loses it composure, and detracts from the whole, in my opinion. As I said, that's purely subjective - just my opinion.

I also like the fact that not having the pipe draws attention to what's making it go. 



camerondmm said:


> ...I also wouldn't discount the repetition of shapes between the gas tank and the bottom of the engine...


I am going to pick up a slightly more familiar curve than what I have there. I was just trying to get the basics out of my head to make a decision on purchasing the frame. It won't have the elliptical shape of the engine side cover, but will have a better progression up into the front down tubes. In addition to trying to hurry up and scratch out some ideas to decide, I also needed to find out if there was any real value in these things. That determines whether or not I will modify the frame itself. I don't think they're worth anything, so I should have a lot of options.




camerondmm said:


> ...I agree that the seat really makes the bike unique.
> 
> I'm sure you'll end up with one nice ride!


Thanks! I agree on the seat. If i hadn't stumbled across a picture of the road-race version I may not have given the frame a second look. I like the design of the frame, but the tank and seat combination of the racer are exactly what I was seeking.

Remember there really aren't any rules here - this is for my own relaxation and enjoyment. The only real requirement is that it makes me smile.  The Inhaler has to follow certain guidelines to be effective as a marketing tool and racer. I enjoy the challenge but find it to be rather confining at times. I started this project specifically to have something that I can do whatever I want to do, and release some of my pent up creative energy.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

"The tank shell will be a composite cover over the controller and electronics. I am going to dig up a piece of seat foam and have them test to see if the ShopBot will cut soft foam. If so, I'll just need to make a pan and have it upholstered. If not, it'll have to cut a mold that I can fill with flexible foam mix."


I've had some reasonable success freezing soft material and machining on the CNC,,,, you might try a CO2 fire extinguisher and experiment on your choice of foam. I just dogged the can down and used a constant bleed to keep it frozen


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

grayballs said:


> ...I've had some reasonable success freezing soft material and machining on the CNC,,,, you might try a CO2 fire extinguisher and experiment on your choice of foam. I just dogged the can down and used a constant bleed to keep it frozen


Fascinating! Sounds like something those guys would have a blast trying, whether it worked or not. Their slogan is "Knowledge * Talent * *Mischief*"! I will give that a try, thanks.

Since it's going to be cut with a router I was just going to look for a rough carbide ball mill, or make a special ball mill with epoxied abrasive, crank the spindle speed to max and slow the feed rate down.

I might pick up some MDF and have a couple wheel discs cut next week, so I can start doing mock-ups as soon as the frame arrives. I absolutely love the fact that I can play with this on my design table while watching TV at night. I can't wait until I get to the point where I can sit on it and ride around, on Flintstone power, in the apartment!


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I've never tried foam, of any kind, but have worked some interesting 'gaskets' from soft rubber, using that technique. I did find that the surface was rather rough (furry?) on occasion, but that shouldn't bother your application


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

grayballs said:


> ...I did find that the surface was rather rough (furry?) on occasion, but that shouldn't bother your application


Yeah, that wouldn't matter too much on a seat cushion. Upholsterers usually put that "stuff" (name on the tip of tongue - won't come out ) over the foam before the leather. It smoothes out the surface and prevents any ripples, holes, and pimples from showing through on the outside.

I'm going stir crazy! I can't do anything meaningful on the Inhaler until the motor is mounted, and can't start on any of the CAD models for this one until I have the frame!  I was tempted to start the tank and seat so I could also have the foam plugs ready when the frame arrives, but realized quickly that I don't have anything accurate to based the dimensions on. I guess I just have to fire the graphics pad up and keep scratching!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I must admit I am not as keen on Scratch2. 

It is not my favorite bike type but I am sure that with your design vision it will look amazing in any set up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I must admit I am not as keen on Scratch2.
> 
> It is not my favorite bike type but I am sure that with your design vision it will look amazing in any set up.


You just like crazy crap like I do!  I will slowly be adding some drama back in the plan, give me a little time.

Okay, you twisted my arm!  One thing that makes version 1 so crazy is that huge 300mm rear tire. That will still be on the bike; you just can't tell from a side-view sketch. Since I plan to model most of the bike in CAD, you'll get a sneak peek soon.

As I said, the first look at version 2 was created in a pinch to make a decision on whether or not to purchase the frame. Now, I am starting to think about where I really want to go with it.








Nothing will work on my little Italian machine but Ferrari's Corsa Red (I think that's the name). I want it to scream, "I'm Italian!" Of course if you're going to have Ferrari red paint, you need saddle tan upholstery.



camerondmm said:


> I think you should consider the importance of the original exhaust in defining the character of the bike in the photo. After all, the photographer chose to shoot it from the right side for a reason. It forms the single strongest line on the bike, and the forward curve also fills the gap between the frame and the front tire (I think this space is very noticeable on your sketch). It even seems to visually continue a line that starts behind the top of the engine.
> 
> I also wouldn't discount the repetition of shapes between the gas tank and the bottom of the engine.
> 
> ...


Point taken. After I had some time to think about where I want to go with the project, and reflect on your comments, I decided to use the battry box to recapture some of the original flavor - via artistic license.  It won't hold as many cells, reducing the range a bit, but it'll look good getting pushed to the nearest electrical outlet! 

I also decided to crop the front down tube and roll the lower frame section/motor mount up into it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hmmmm, the big 300mm tyre on the back and the upright springer forks?
That's some mix of contemporary at the back with 'old skool' on the front.

What sort of wheels are you planning on? Wire spokes, alloy spoke, disc?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmmm, the big 300mm tyre on the back and the upright springer forks?
> That's some mix of contemporary at the back with 'old skool' on the front....


It's a common mix in the world of modern choppers. That's what this bike really is, by the way, a cafe bike style image machine. It's too low, and too wide to corner effectively. The electric motor, and limited battery space, makes it impractical to use for touring. The only thing left is to look cool, like a chopper! 



Woodsmith said:


> ...What sort of wheels are you planning on? Wire spokes, alloy spoke, disc?


I can't decide. There's an 18 x 10" wire on Ebay for $350, so that route seems cheap and easy. Wires would be more vintage looking as well. Then again, I have this 14" long piece of 3" diameter x .500" wall aluminum tubing (2" inside diameter) that has been begging me to build a hub for years. I actually bought it for that, when we used car tires to get 300mm of tire. I didn't know what CAD was back then, but now that I could easily do some crazy design... I just don't know what kind of wheel it would go in to have a matching front. Of course, I'm tempted to do matching custom centers, buy a couple hoops and make my own wheels, but this project isn't supposed to be that involved.

It's really hard to back off though! I really want an A123 battery pack in it now!  If my math is correct it wouldn't take a lot. 6 strings of 22 cells in series would give me 72 volts, and 420 amps, for about 25lbs. I could probably fit them and a charger in the battery case. I could probably pull that off, with charger, for around $5K. I don't know what kind of range I would have, but I know I would never want to get off of it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm having so much fun playing with this!  This is what I saw in my chicken scratching:








Even though it is not _proper_ art technique, I prefer it because I see hundreds of possibilities in all those little lines. Even the little fragments register in my brain as a continuous line, a possiblity. I am purposely self-taught so I could develop my own techniques, to fit my unorthodox perspective. I am in school now, but for Communications so I can learn to relate my philosophies to the average client; and to learn how to use my extravagance to entertain some day.

It might look small "on paper", but it's really not. In this rendering it has a 67" wheelbase, which is probably more than a foot longer than he original bike. I used a lot of subtle design tricks to balance everything, while still having the stock 350-sized frame. The tank is actually not just stretched, it'll also be wider to balance the massive 300 rear tire. The seat will be much wider too. It's basically a dragbike version of the original roadracer.

That's why I think you may still like it Woody. It's a little higher than the first version, but the same basic idea - old bike reborn as modern chopper style dragbike. Being a little higher, I have room to sit in my preferred sportbike arrangement. It's also a bit safer because I won't disappear behind the hood of SUVs and trucks as fast!  I had a bike about this height and it wasn't too bad on the street.

The suspension will have very limited travel (1.5-2") but I will be able to use my old trick of standing up on the pegs over bigger bumps, that I can't avoid. I still can't decide what I want for wheels - hence the faded discs.

The frame has been shipped - I received the tracking number today!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It's looking a lot nicer like that with the longer wheelbase. I like the 50's wireless grille on the battery case.

The curves are really tying it together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Woody! When you say it's looking nicer with the longer wheelbase, what are you referring to? The wheelbase in my renderings hasn't changed. The first one was 67" too. Unless you're referring to the difference between my version and the original Benelli. The longer look between my first rendering and this one is just the result of me pulling the lines all the way through.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Woody! When you say it's looking nicer with the longer wheelbase, what are you referring to? The wheelbase in my renderings hasn't changed. The first one was 67" too. Unless you're referring to the difference between my version and the original Benelli. The longer look between my first rendering and this one is just the result of me pulling the lines all the way through.


It just looks nicer long. I didn't realise that you hadn't moved the wheels from your earlier sketch but maybe the colouring and rendering of the lines and details has made it look noticably longer.
It is certainly better when it looks longer then the bike in the original photo.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

It's looking really good. One thing though, you will need to rake the neck to use that girder front end, or it will be a real tankslapper at high speed (at least once anyway). Take a look at some of the rake and trail calculators for choppers on the web. 

If you draw a line down the center of the neck, it should hit the ground 3.5 to 5.5 inches in *front* of a vertical line drawn down from the center of the wheel.

The springer on my chopper has about 6.5" of trail - it's rock solid at higher speeds but a bit of work to keep running straight under 5mph. Your rendering with negative trail will be as nimble as a bmx bicycle in a parking lot, but will very likely develop a catastrophic high speed wobble.


Just lookin' out for ya,
Keith



Lots of info on the forum at elmoto.net - bunch of good guys there too. You'll fit right in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> It's looking really good. One thing though, you will need to rake the neck to use that girder front end, or it will be a real tankslapper at high speed (at least once anyway). Take a look at some of the rake and trail calculators for choppers on the web. If you draw a line down the center of the neck, it should hit the ground 3.5 to 5.5 inches in front of a vertical line drawn down from the center of the wheel.The springer on my chopper has about 6.5" of trail - it's rock solid at higher speeds but a bit of work to keep running straight under 5mph. Your rendering with negative trail will be as nimble as a bmx bicycle in a parking lot, but will very likely develop a catastrophic high speed wobble.Just lookin' out for ya,KeithLots of info on the forum at elmoto.net - bunch of good guys there too. You'll fit right in.


Thanks for the compliment, and for looking out for me. I would eventually have gotten around to doing the geometry, but I will definitely make sure to check now. I haven't done girder geometry in years, so I wasn't even thinking about it. I'm more used conventional forks. No problem though adjustments are easy in Photoshop! 

I'll check that site out.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to mention, I've had some pretty serious wobbles. The last one was at 105+mph, and was close to turning into a full tank slapper. I was at the drag strip and was eyeing the grass on my left praying I'd hit it and not the guard rail on the right! It subsided and the bike was loaded back in the bed of my truck.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> ...you will need to rake the neck to use that girder front end...


I woke up today with this on my mind, so I decided to see what I could do with it. I don't want to start modeling anything in CAD until after I have the frame, and I am in more of an artistic frame of mind today, so I did some preliminary guesstimating in Photoshop.

I did some research on the internet to get my head back into motorcycle suspension geometry. It's been a long time since I had to do it. I actually have Tony Foale's book, but haven't dug it out yet. I bought it back in the 80s. I think we used to run around 35-degree rakes, with around 6 inches of trail. I started with the 35-degree figure just to see where things landed. I like the bike's setup so I also challenged myself with making it work without moving any of the major components (wheels, tank, frame, battery/motor case, grider uprights, etc). Here's what I came up with:








I just pulled the neck back into the frame more, which is actually how we used to do the rake on our bikes. This means I'll have some creative work to do to make everything clear the tank shell, but I have ideas for that that should look really nice. I think it actually looks better.

It requires a longer upper link to keep the girder's uprights in the same position, but therein lies the magic - I hope. What this does is pull the wheel in closer as the suspension compresses, because of the smaller radius. It's not a lot but it works. After I started playing around with it, I remembered doing this before - back in the day when I used to tape a piece of paper to my drawing board, break out the triangles, straight-edges, compasses, and drafting pencils, to work out my ideas! 

I came up with a 35-degree steering head angle, with approximately 4-inches of trail at normal ride height, that increases to a total of nearly 6-inches at full bump (compression).









After I get the frame and start doing real-life mock-ups that I can translate into CAD models, I will be able to sort out the exact numbers, locations, angles, positioning, etc. For all you smart-guys, and nitpickers, out there - yes, there should be a compressed coil-over in the full bump version, and the headlight should have moved up with the girder.  I have to stop somewhere! 

I guess I'll be building a frame jig soon...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's not bad at all.

I had to get a rule out to see if you would bottom out the chassis on full bump front a rear. You still have some clearance if you ever end up on British roads.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's not bad at all.
> 
> I had to get a rule out to see if you would bottom out the chassis on full bump front a rear. You still have some clearance...


Checking up on me eh?  I'm planning on 3" of clearance, that's why the travel will be limited to 2".



Woodsmith said:


> ...if you ever end up on British roads.


Sounds like I would be right at home there - Ohio roads get pretty bad. On the major interstate highways, it's not a question of whether or not they'll be re-paving them in the summer - it's knowing where, so you can plan for it or avoid it. The smaller highways get patched until they're almost unbearable, and the regular streets can be downright scary sometimes. Most of the vehicles I have owned for the past two decades have been lowered to my trademark 3" ground clearance. I've gotten so used to it that I still duck and dodge in cars that aren't lowered now! I keep knocking the exhaust lose on my Honda here in Columbus though. It needs a whole new exhaust, that 's tucked in realy tight. They seem to love speed bumps, and steep ramps into parking lots, here.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I know what you mean. We also get the speed humps and pot hole mix on the same road. It gets more and more tempting to just get a big 4x4.

I know I will have problems with the MR2 grounding on some local roads. My last MGB was almost unusable because of speed humps.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The latest version I posted on page five has been updated a little. I just added some of the things I forgot, and uploaded it to my site in place of the one I had posted earlier.

I added the handlebars (artistic interpretation of a clubman bar, with a modern chopper style hidden throttle, and remote reservoir front brake master cylinder). rear brake pedal, lower rear motor mount bushing, belt & tensioner. Normally when I do motorcycles I don't like adding the controls and final details because they tend to detract from the clean (almost nonfunctional) look I like. With this bike, I swear these parts make it look better. I think it's the electric thing again. The design is so clean that these parts don't compete with anything, and they add a little sophistication.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I really like the look of hidden cables and pipes on bikes too.

The sketch is looking good, just need to add the foot pegs to set the feet position.

BTW, where is the







going to sit?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I really like the look of hidden cables and pipes on bikes too.
> 
> The sketch is looking good, just need to add the foot pegs to set the feet position...


Thanks. Feet are set already - the piece that extends back from the motor, continuing the line the exhaust would have created, is the foot peg bracket. This side also hides the rear brake master cylinder and linkage behind it. You can see the little brake pedal extending out from the peg.

The position is road-race/extreme sportbike. That's what I love, and I am more than happy about the fact that it's possible on this Italian version. The reason I didn't want to move the girder uprights, when I was working on the geometry, is I wanted the almost vertical appearance of a road racer. I want this to look like an actual road race bike, lowered and stretched for the drag strip. They do it with the sportbikes now, but most of them end up with more "stuff" on them than I like to see.



Woodsmith said:


> ...BTW, where is the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her pegs fold out from under the seat. Right now I have her on top of the seat behind me. The whole thing is already supposed to be upholstered, so there would just be more padding under that area. I need to measure the rise on an actual sportbike seat to compare it to mine; and observe some couples riding, to see if I want her that high. If not, I can always make the seat two pieces, with a removable leather-covered panel over a lower honey seat. I really didn't want to split that piece of leather, but will if I have to.

I've figured out that I can use a regular automotive-style coil-over shock in the back, and a quarter-midget unit up front to get the scale difference I have in the renderings; and the high-tech appearance. Both would be aluminum bodied. The rear uses a 2.5" i.d. spring, and the front uses a 1.625" i.d. spring. There are also a nice range of spring rates, all the way down to 50lbs for the quarter midget shocks.

Another detail in the renderings I forgot to elaborate on is the headlight. I shaped it to look like a stylized cafe fairing, and the headlight lense will be reminiscent of a number plate in the center of it. If you look close you can see the clear lense on the front of it. The shape of the vent in the battery case, was also inspired by the number plate on the side of the road race bike. The mesh in that area also corresponds to the air-cooling fins that would have been there with the ICE.

This bike is a designer's dream. It is so much fun to pick up cues from the original and almost hide them in this design. They contribute to the whole without cluttering it up. A lot of times when you try to work in too many little tidbits they start looking like post-it notes stuck all over the design. On Scratch, they almost disappear into the bike. The Inhaler is sort of the opposite. I have to find ways to hide things that I must have on the truck. Both are fun, just different.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I hate waiting for shipments!  The USPS site has never revealed anything other than an electronic notice of shipping info received. Since it's paid, it's driver discretion whether or not to leave the package at the door, and they always do no matter what I ask them to do. That means I have been basically held hostage here all week waiting for this frame. I called USPS and they have no records beyond the original notification. Grrrrrr! I just messaged the seller to see if and when it was shipped.

If they shipped it, and it's a computer glitch, I am just stuck here 8am-5pm M-F, 8am-2pm Sat, until it comes! Grrrrrrr! 

I'll be tempted to not even buy stuff in the future if it's going to be shipped Parcel Post. I like UPS most because their tracking is usually awesome. I followed all of the Inhaler's parts from their door to mine. I could confidently do whatever I had to do, and just plan to be there on the scheduled delivery date. I even planned for shipments to arrive here or at work (when I had the job) based on holidays, etc. The only times that didn't go according to plans were when we had snow days, then they wouldn't leave it because it was a commercial location.

Just needed to vent, thanks for listening...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally!!!! 








It's absolutely perfect! It's bigger than you would expect a 350 frame to be, but not heavy like a 750 or 1000 frame. It's long too, which is great for a dragbike/chopper influenced build. The heritage of being an actual Italian bike frame, and the lines of the sweeping bends are what convinced me to buy it. It's ten times better up close and personal.

The little GE looks pretty comfortable in its new home!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I have the frame, I remembered why I started this project in the first place. This is my place to have fun, and play with concepts that aren't practical for the Inhaler. With that in mind, I picked up my graphics pad and made some changes:








The last version was okay. It had good overall balance, picked up on a lot of the original Benelli road race bike's key features, yadda, yadda, yadda... That's not what I meant to do.

I wanted to play with extremes that would ruin the Inhaler's marketing potential. I chose to use an alternative front suspension to bring the height of the bike down as low as possible in front. Even though in real-life that girder is much shorter than standard forks, it still looked high to me, and the front wheel was still sticking out in mid-air. I switched to a leading link design (which is basically what a springer front end is) and tucked the wheel as close to the bike as possible. Rather than raking the neck I worked on developing good geometry with the stock rake and having razor-sharp steering, like a real road racer woud have. It has four inches of trail at ride-height, and gains at least an inch under compression.

To make all this work, and take advantage of the quick steering, I raised the frame a little bit (not the tank though). This brings the motor up and gives more cornering clearance. With a 67" wheelbase it won't handle like a sportbike, but it will be nice to roll over gently into sweepers. It should have a nice turning radius too. Also, to help clear the tucked in front wheel, and have fun with the Italian lines, I replaced the frame's front down tubes with rolled tubes that flow better with the rest of the frame. I also replaced the rear section of the single tube backbone, under the seat, with an S-bend piece that keeps the seat lined up with the tank.

With the front properly tucked in and smashed down, I pushed the rear wheel back to regain the wheelbase and highlight the massive 300mm rear tire. Moving the tire away from the bike draws more attention to it. To balance that, I increased the overall scale of the seat and stretched it back over the tire - dragbike style. I filled the gap with a second battery box, disguised as a road-race number plate.

Finally, I reshaped the main battery box, so that the motor is more visible. The bottom of the frame will be connected by a machined/cast/fabricated aluminum plate that bolts to each of the four tubes. The right side will have the round section shown to bolt to the motor's comm end, and the other side will be open to allow the motor's drive end to be seen. The foot mount on the motor will bolt to the plate. The battery box will just be a cover over the batteries, which will be on the plate in front of the motor.

I need to start doing the numbers on this one and see what kind of battery pack I can put together that is not priced in outer space, but gives decent range for a reasonable amount of weight. I think I am going to want to spend some time on this bike. Might need a little generator trailer.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I remember from some time ago, a couple of Cajun boys, and a scooter they called Wraith (I think). It was an interesting concept, using carbon fibre and their own ideas of design,,,,, check it out


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

grayballs said:


> I remember from some time ago, a couple of Cajun boys, and a scooter they called Wraith (I think). It was an interesting concept, using carbon fibre and their own ideas of design,,,,, check it out


If we're talking about the same thing, the Wraith was the inspiration for the girder front end in the previous version. I love Confederate's bikes. They live in my neighborhood, outside the box.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think That front end looks better, it is less 'in your face' and the lower, tucked in front stance gives it a meaner look.
Thuumbs up on that one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I think That front end looks better, it is less 'in your face' and the lower, tucked in front stance gives it a meaner look.
> Thuumbs up on that one.


Thanks Woody. As soon as I get the frame cleaned up, it and the motor will be on my design table starting the offical mock-ups. As I mentioned, this will be my comfy, relax-at-home, project for a while. First step is just to get the frame and motor mocked up to start taking measurements. I might cut a couple discs to mock up the wheels and start measurements for the front and rear suspensions.

I am thinking about doing the leading-link fork bicycle style - just a fork that slips in the neck from the bottom with a nut on top to hold it in (no upper clamp). To make it rigid, I was thinking about press-fit oil-impregnated bronze bushings that fill the whole neck; instead of the usual tapered roller bearings. My thinking is that it would distribute the forces evenly into the entire neck rather than just into the upper and lower races. I would use needle bearing thrust washers to provide smooth rotation. The point is to keep the mass of the fork as low as possible, with only the handlebars and a cap on top of the stem.

Hmmm, I should model that...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The trouble with using bushings would be that it would gradually oval in fit at the top and bottom as the load puts a leverage on it. Then there is nothing you can do to take up that wear.
And, as I found out with my 'knackerd from the factory' new Harley, any play in the headstock bearings makes for brown trousers at each and every corner.

With taper rollers you can always nip up a bit to remove any slack. The head stock will also be able to absorb any flex and play without causing stiffness in the steering. With a full length bushing, any flex will cause it to bind. Not what you need in a corner.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The trouble with using bushings would be that it would gradually oval in fit at the top and bottom as the load puts a leverage on it. Then there is nothing you can do to take up that wear.
> And, as I found out with my 'knackerd from the factory' new Harley, any play in the headstock bearings makes for brown trousers at each and every corner.
> 
> With taper rollers you can always nip up a bit to remove any slack. The head stock will also be able to absorb any flex and play without causing stiffness in the steering. With a full length bushing, any flex will cause it to bind. Not what you need in a corner.


Good points. I've never had anything but ball and roller bearings in the neck. I usually replaced the factory ball bearings with tapered rollers, on older bikes. I also noticed when I went out to do some measuring, for modeling , that the neck is small diameter (1.9" o.d.) but relatively thick-walled tubing. My old Kawasakis and Suzukis had larger diameter necks but with thinner wall tubing.

I have to see what kind of bearings I can find. I just looked at some tapered roller bearings that would fit in it, but they were for a 15mm shaft. I imagine the original ball bearing setup allowed for a bigger shaft. It was also a 350, so things were probably not as heavy-duty as I am used to.

Another option is to machine new ends that would be pressed into the neck and TIG welded in. That would allow me to run bigger tapered roller bearings. I just looked at a couple for 1.0625" & 1.00" shaft diameters. They would only add a tick over an inch to the overall height of the neck. I have a half-inch or so to spare under the neck, so theoretically it would work. They really don't have to be TIGd if it's a tight press-fit, but it would make me feel better knowing they were. I could also take advantage of the opportunity to add a little of my creative flair to the neck with sculptured ends. Maybe...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think making up nice ends to take the bearings will be great, it will give you another artistic free reign to come up with something fantastic and subtle that maybe not everyone will notice.

One of the other advantages of taper rollers is that it adds a little pre-stress to the headstock and steering tube which makes then a little more rigid, something else that bushings can't do.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I think making up nice ends to take the bearings will be great, it will give you another artistic free reign to come up with something fantastic and subtle that maybe not everyone will notice...


Starting to think in 3D...











The piece on top is a billet cap (one of the pieces from the Inhaler).
Yellow = the main shaft
Red = nut that holds it all together, of course.
Green = the washer that will actually be a machined piece that matches the diameter of the cap, and tapers into the neck as it goes down.
Silver = the tapered roller bearings.
Red, again = the original neck.
Blue = the new machined caps to hold the larger bearings.
I haven't modeled the inner surfaces of the new caps, or of the original neck, yet but this should help paint the picture. I've been checking between the model, the side-view renderings, and the actual frame, and it looks like there is enough room to pull this off.

One thing I thought of while looking at the model is the caps don't really have to be TIGd in, and they don't have to be plain steel. I could do them in aluminum, stainless, or titanium, and lock them in place with rivets on the scalloped front sections. If they're tight press-fit pieces, with rivets, and sandwiched between the fork and lock nut, I don't think they can fall out. 

I'll bet they'd be noticed then.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

You could also take a look at the inserts used on the Sportsters in the 70's and 80's. Although that would lengthen the neck some.

Keith


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> You could also take a look at the inserts used on the Sportsters in the 70's and 80's. Although that would lengthen the neck some.
> 
> Keith


I tried googling, but only found tapered roller bearing upgrades. That is what I am doing, but with adapters to mount larger bearings than the neck can currently fit.

I am pushing the limits with the length doing this, so if it's longer I wouldn't be able to use it. The Benelli's neck is only around six inches (150m) and this setup will put me at just under ten inches of effective length from the bottom of the fork's crossmember to the top of the cap. I have just enough clearance for wheel travel and the cap should protrude up out of the tank shell just the right amount - I think.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I ran across this while searching for the aforementioned Sportster neck inserts. I can't wait to see Scratch posed like that with its fat tire and smashed down front end!


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

I'll grab my camera and snap a pic of the '75 Sporty front end here in my shop. You could check jpcycles.com - thay've got eveything you could ever want for a Harley.

Keith


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, I think I did okay. I just saw what look like the same motor I bought for $70 + shp, $554.95 + shp!  It has a tapered shaft (yuk!) and I have a normal keyed shaft.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just scored a GSXR 750 rear coil-over shock for $5 + 11.24 for shipping!  The plan is to patiently colect parts, at great prices, until I have enough to start building. Two down...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The coil-over came today. It's nitrogen filled, and adjustable.









I mocked up a few of the parts to see how they would look together on the bike. I like it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My brain was completely saturated with seriousness, so I called on Scratch to help me relax. I still haven't accumulated enough parts to start building anything yet, so I had to play in either Photoshop or Rhino - I chose Photoshop. I guess out of pure delirium I decided to try a wood and copper steampunk version. I dedicate this to my good friend, from across the pond, Sir Woody! 








I lost my drive before I could get to the wheels (again), so you'll have to use your imaginator - 60 spoke wires, with black rims and spokes, copper nipples and hubs. The motor would have a black case, with copper plated end caps. The seat would have an embossed, brown and black, leather pad; attached with copper rivets.

If money were no object, I would use Cocobolo for the tank, headlight, and number plate/battery box; and Wenge for the seat and main battery case (copper mesh cooling vents).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> If money were no object, I would use Cocobola for the tank, headlight, and number plate/battery box; and Wenge for the seat and main battery case (copper mesh cooling vents).


Heavy. Veneer's could give you a similar look with a good amount of weight savings.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Heavy. Veneer's could give you a similar look with a good amount of weight savings.


Actually it would be pretty light, but extremely wasteful. Those would be CNC'd shells. CNC the inside surfaces, lay-up composite liners, second machine setup, CNC outer surfaces. The composite liners allow you to go as thin as you dare on the outside. The only thing stopping one from going to a near-paper thin veneer is how much confidence you have in the models, programming, setup, and machine accuracy. If you're off by a matter of a few thousandths, bye-bye wood... 

Sorry Woody, I know woodwork is supposed to be more of a hands on process in your eyes, but hey my hands would be on the mouse and graphics pen/pad. 

*NOTE:* Everything idea and process is stated theoretically as "would" because this is currently just an excersize in possibility. I'm not saying I am going this route, but not completely ruling it out either.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Sorry Woody, I know woodwork is supposed to be more of a hands on process in your eyes, but hey my hands would be on the mouse and graphics pen/pad.
> 
> *NOTE:* Everything idea and process is stated theoretically as "would" because this is currently just an excersize in possibility. I'm not saying I am going this route, but not completely ruling it out either.


There is nothing stopping you from using your CAD ability to design the cuts of veneer that would wrap the tank smoothly and still hold a good grain figure. Gentle steaming would allow the veneers to follow compound curves.

Another option is Fablon.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> There is nothing stopping you from using your CAD ability to design the cuts of veneer that would wrap the tank smoothly and still hold a good grain figure. Gentle steaming would allow the veneers to follow compound curves.
> 
> Another option is Fablon.


Uggh! Vinyl?!?! 

Ideally, I would want to machine these parts from solid wood. I like veneer, and what is possible with it, but for Scratch to serve its purpose and provide maximum enjoyment I would need to carve crazy organic shapes from solid stock. Speaking of that...

Woody, you have serious experience with, and knowledge of, wood. Provided I could even find such a thing, what are the drawbacks, challenges, limitations, etc, to working with solid pieces of wood? Also, if I am fully encapsulating it in epoxy resin, does it have to be completely dry wood? I experimented with sealing a piece of "wet" ash before on a shift knob. It cracked once before I finished turning it, where the aluminum threaded base was bonded in but no additonal cracking after that. I may still have it, I'll check later to see how it's holding up years later, if so.

The tank and main battery case would actually be split, probably with a copper-plated trim piece dividing the two halves; but I would still want that to be cut from a solid piece (to maintain the grain pattern), split in half for machining. The headlight housing would be easy to machine from a single piece, with a few setups. I could also design the seat for this, with only one thick section, where it rolls under on the bottom - I could live with that.

If nothing else, this would make one heck of a piece of furniture in my living room!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You want the wood to be dimensionally stable, which means dry. Also, moisture might inhibit good bonding and curing of the epoxy. Water in the wood means the epoxy can't get in there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You want the wood to be dimensionally stable, which means dry. Also, moisture might inhibit good bonding and curing of the epoxy. Water in the wood means the epoxy can't get in there.


Oh yeah, you work with boats! 

I get that part. That's why I said does it have to be completely dry? The piece of ash I made the shift knob from was from a tree we cut down on the property. It wasn't really wet (thus the quotation marks) but I don't believe it was completely dry either. It felt dry, machined like it was dry (did it on a metal lathe), but still cracked like wood that was drying. As mentioned though, the resin seemed to bond well and it never cracked again.

I'm listening though. I didn't ask the question just to get people to approve what I want to do - that seems to be common around here sometimes. I was trying to get a better understanding on the science behind it, and why my little shift knob seemed to hold up. On a very expensive chunk of exotic wood, with a lot of machine time invested, I wouldn't take the chance unless I had some measure of scientific proof of concept.

From what I remember, it seems like the wood dried fast enough on the surface that the resin was able to bond with the surface layers; and trap the remaining moisture inside. The section that cracked was, as mentioned on the bottom where the aluminum base was bonded in, and was probably less than an eighth of an inch thick. My, uneducated (with wood), guess is that the thin section was able to dry completely, and much too rapidly, causing it to crack. If that's true, using a big enough piece of stock to allow the inner cavity to be machined, dried enough for the composite lay-up, would prevent cracking. The big question, I guess, is whether there would be enough drying on the surface before lay-up, and what reaction there would be between the epoxy and moisture in that inner surface layer, to prevent cracking when it's machined down to the final veneer.

Would the chemical properties of the resin repel moisture? Would the heat of the curing process dry a sufficient layer of wood? Obviously, the best solution is a completely dry piece of wood, but the bigger the piece the less likely it is to be completely dry. I've noticed that some of the exotic wood suppliers sell the bigger pieces "wax sealed". I'm guessing that is to prevent cracking on the store shelves, which would also shrink and crack their profit margin.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've always worked with kiln dried wood when epoxying, and nothing as thick as what you're talking about. I honestly don't know what might happen if you take a thick chunk of wood and hollow it out as you're suggesting, and of course it's very dependent on the characteristics of the type of wood you use. Woodsmith should know more.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm just having fun with theories and possibilities right now. If I actually decided to try it, I would consult with the wood supplier/expert (hopefully). I have a hard time believeing that the wood would be completely dry because it takes so long to actually dry thicker wood in a kiln. Time is money and either the price would be off the charts to reflect the amount of time it occupied the kiln, or it would be only partially dry. My brother was really into woodworking, and we used to talk about this sometimes before he died. I just can't remember everything he told me, because I was really more concerned with metal and composites.

I did some steam bending, by the way, Woody. I was trying to wet the wood and bend it, and my brother suggested steam to get the harder species to move - worked well. It's fun too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, don't use one big lump of wood. There will be nothing you can do to prevent it splitting.

The reasons wood splits is because of shrinkage as it dries. The outer rings of the tree will shrink more then the inner ones and so interesting changes to shape occur. If the wood can't change shape then it will split.

Have a look at this link.

The trick to good wood working is to be able to examine a piece of wood and determine where the movement will be and then design around it to allow for movement and shrinkage.

Trying to wrap a rigid structure in wood will cause all sorts of problems. If the wood has too much moisture then it will shrink and split. Too little moisture and it will absorb it from the atmosphere and expand pulling away from the rigid structure.

Imagine your own work with billet aluminium. 
Suppose you were designing a piece of decorative aluminium that needed to fit very accurately with a large mass of granite piece but in temperatures that varied from -40C to +100C. The aluminium would be distorting all over the place.

It is a similar challenge with wood. Some species are worse then others as can bee seen from that link.

In addition to that the wood will also move depending on grain direction, where and how it was grown and also how pretty it is.

The worst trees are ones that have one big limb (maybe the others were removed or lost) acting like a sail that is caught by the wind. It makes the tree twist around so the trunk grows to oppose the twisting.
When it is cut into planks the opposing stresses in the tree begin to relieve and the 'tree', if it were still complete, tries to unwind itself. The movement may continue indefinately.

If you wanted me to make a tank that looks as if it was from one piece of cocobola I would get the wood in thick planks all from the same part of the same tree. The planks would be slowly trued flat and square over time letting it acclimatise as I went.
Then the outline of the tank would be cut so that it could be laid up bread and butter style but with a lot of care to mach the grain and figure.
then the whole thing would be glued together, a couple of planks at a time and re trued as I went until it was all complete.

The fun part is the alignment of the figure as that has to happen before the overall shape is carved out. So I would have to imagine where the grain has gone to inside the wood at the finished surface level. It doesn't always work.

There would be no guarentee that the finished tank wouldn't split or move anyway even after all that care.

Reversing alternate planks so that the pull on the grain opposed on adjacent planks would help a lot but then the figure wouldn't match as well but even that can be made as good as possible where it was most visible. 

But a tank is still a thin walled hollow construction and it may still move!

Options would then be having split seem lines that are covered but allow movement to take place and then having the wood made to be a loose fit over a rigid tank inside. Better would be to have all the wood cut quarter sawn (all the cuts radially towards the centre of the log) but the wood looks boring then.

It is rarely as easy as design on CAD and then carve out on a CNC.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I did some steam bending, by the way, Woody. I was trying to wet the wood and bend it, and my brother suggested steam to get the harder species to move - worked well. It's fun too.


Steam bending is fun. It is not an exact science though.

Wood will bend if it is heated to the point where the lignin softens and the wood fibres are able to bend and slide against each other. Usually that means heating it to over 70C. A hot air gun is effective on small sections and guitar sound boxes are bent around a hot tube.

The steaming process is also a drying process as it will steam the moisture out of the wood at the same time.

The general rule of thumb is one hour if steaming for each inch of thickness.

Steamed sticks bend best if they are bent in compression only. That means making a stainless steel strap to constrain the wood on the outer part of the bend. That puts the neutral axis of the bend on the outer face instead if in the centre of the section.

S bends are the least stress full on the timber as the loads have a chance to equalise within the timber.

A U bend will often result in the ends of the timber flaring outwards as the compression on the inside of the U pushes along the length of the wood and causes a reverse bend at the extreme ends.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now we're cooking with (wood) fire!  I love exploring the science behind what makes things we take for granted work! I will admit though, I am more user-end oriented, meaning I like to learn just enough to produce results with actual materials. I was supposed to be on my to an engineering degree after high school, but decided I liked being the guy that put the engineer's hard work into practice more! 

I totally get the unwinding process, and the relative stability of specific species, from my experiments in the past - now I know why it was doing what it did! Actually, there are similar reactions with many metals on a much smaller, slower, scale. That was one of the concerns that made programming and machining my motor mounts more challenging. The type of aluminum I wanted (6061) has similar reactions. Machining it can relieve or create stresses in the metal that have to be compensated for. The process worked from side to side, and down through step to step, to allow the plate to "chill out" between them. There were also changes made to the model before machining, according to engineering recommendations, to deal with this.

With all that, machining from solid blocks of timber is definitely out of the question. What about lamination? Say .250-.500" thickness layers bonded with epoxy, or whatever is best for that?

If I was to do laminated parts I would like to play some tricks and highlight the fact that they are laminated. Imagine an axis extending longitudinally through each part (from front to back of the motorcycle) and set just about in the center of each part (vertically and horizontally). The wood strips would be machined so that, when bonded, they would sort of follow an arc around this axis. Basically little machined slices of pie, that assemble into a part. I don't know if it would work, but it sounds like a lot of fun to model! 

I also thought about going a step further and really exploiting the fact that they're laminated by using a dyed (probably black), thickened, epoxy, and machining spacers on the outer edges of the wood strips, that would give a perfect thickness of epoxy in the finished part between the wood layers. The outside spacers would be machined away during final machining. I think some boats have something like this.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Laminations are good.
The adhesives are key and depend on ambient conditions and the timber type, it is almost a science in itself.

You can certainly laminate and make a feature of the laminations either through gaps or contrasting materials.
Plywood edges are often used to this effect in some designs.

Alternatively many laminations of veneers are also good.
This is Friend Wood's Tryane II.

























It is made from laminations of thin strips of mahogany veneer epoxied over a frame of spars and ribs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Laminations are good...
> This is Friend Wood's Tryane II...


Wow! That's pretty intense! I'll keep toying with the lamination idea, and try to figure out if I really want to go this route. It all sounds like fun, and very interesting now, we'll see if I still feel like that after the proverbial wood dust has settled.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Geez, the forum is quiet today! I guess all you dads are being showered with gifts and love. Happy Father's Day!

I fiddled with the Inhaler's motor mount until the heat convinced me that I would rather spend Father's Day inside watching car shows and golf with my boy (dog). Then, I started thinking about Scratch. The thing that attracted me to the Benelli frame wasn't the style of the old cafe racer, but the design of the frame. I was searching Ebay trying to see what kind of frame I could find to give myself a head start, and happened across the old Italian piece.

My favorite style of bike now is actually the whole chopper/bobber thing, so I decided to see what kind of bobber I could build with the Benelli frame.








I basically just pivoted it from the center of the neck to a 35-degree rake, cropped the old frame rails and tried to flow their original lines back to the rear wheel, as a hardtail. I created a quick peanut tank, cropped the seat down to a bobber style pan with the GSXR coil-over suspending it, and kept the same powertrain setup and headlight. Those are the same size wheels, with a little shorter wheelbase.

I think I like it. 

Be careful you don't cut yourself, there are a lot of sharp edges! I was just trying to do a quick chop to see if the idea had merit. No color either, except for the copper spring on the coil-over, and no idea yet where I would go with the color scheme...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I do prefer that look to the cafe racer look. You'll be raking the forks again next.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Me too Woody.  I think this may be it. It's the easiest to do, of all the plans. A couple easy fixtures, a little time with some 1" tubing in the bender, and the frame would be done. One or two days...

Chop a pair of forks down, and I have a rolling chassis. If the guy storing my old Kawasaki front end hasn't lost it, that part will be cheap and easy; plus, I'll have a clean title to bypass specialty registration. I just need the big rear wheel and tire (like the example you posted in the Voltsrat thread), and a small front wheel - oh yeah, and the money to buy them!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I tried to kill this project but, as it turns out, I need it. The Inhaler is, on one hand, everything I wanted it to be and more. On the other hand, it has kind of taken on a life of its own (which it was actually supposed to do), and the boundaries are rapidly closing in; with regard to what it must be. That leaves me with a creative void. My driver (the Tailfather Project) helps a little because it's different, but the rules are even more strict with it because it must be completely civil for daily driving.

So, it seems you were right Woody!  Like him, I just can't keep my mind clear enough to think straight unless I have at least a few irons in the fire. One of them has to be a raw creative outlet, for me. Uninhibited by practical concerns, and free to be whatever it becomes. I'm still biased towards engineering, so no pure flights of fancy - but it doesn't have to fit some specific niche or purpose. If that doesn't make sense, it will in the ideas you see me come up with.

As for a timeframe - who knows. Right now this is my project and thread to let my mind wander. I will be collecting parts as time and budget allow, and later when the Inhaler is operational (at the least) I may have fun putting some of them together. Right now it's stopping me from feeling like a champagne bottle someone shook up and put back on the rack.  I actually never stopped playing with it. Every time I felt like that I would play with the 3D models, or just the idea in my noggin.

With all that long-winded drivel out of the way. I always return to my original idea. I am not really one for sentiment, but I have owned this bike since 1983. I just always thought it would be cool to redo it someday, and to pay homage to my street-legal dragbikes days. The original bike was a 1972 Kawasaki H1-B 500cc inline triple. They're somewhat affectionately know as Kaw-Triples, and actually have a little value now. They're gross offenders as far as environment, pollution, and all things green are concerned though - emitting their telltale trail of burned oil smoke, unburned gas, and typical exhaust crap - all at once. Kind of like skywriters on land.

I call this the Kawasaki H1-*E* (for electric). 








When I received the blower motor for the Inhaler, another moment of inspiration hit. What if I used three motors about that size (4.5" diameter x 7" long) to emulate the three cylinders of the original motor? To pull off the illusion, I envisioned them twisting three ring and and pinion setups all on a single shaft. The motors are obvious, the long round cylinder under them represents the case that would hold the ring and pinions. Mounted to the back of it (mounting surface designed and machined into that case) is a Soliton Jr. The kicker is - if I could find three tiny series DC motors that could handle 600 amps each - I would have 1800amps to get moving!!! 





Other stuff:

The tank shell is tapered at the back, chopper style, just for the fun of it.
The rear wheel and tire are slightly larger at 17 x 12", and 330mm wide.
The organic swingarm is an artistic representation of the old exhaust pipes. There would be a lot of triangulation and webbing between the main tubes to strengthen it and create a (mono) shock mount.
The splines (lines) you see are where the frame rails would run. The frame is the Benelli frame I purchased last year, with some of the rails swapped around, and the Kaw neck spliced in with a 45* rake.
The front end is the 500 Kaw front forks transformed into a rocker arm setup. I will model this more eventually. It actually pivots just above the tire, and will activate the shock through some crazy linkage contraption I haven't quite sorted out yet. There's way too much trail right now too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Simon Rafferty suggested to me and Jozzer a while back the idea of using ring an pinions but two pinions per ring to get a V formation using small motors.

You can get the Harley Vtwin look or a little V6 or V8 motor set up.
The cable ducts can be run from the motors like manifold pipes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Simon Rafferty suggested to me and Jozzer a while back the idea of using ring and pinions...


Nothing new under the sun, eh?  It really opens a lot of opportunities for arranging motors and, even though it's similar, it's still much more efficient than pistons swinging on a crankshaft. The thought of the gear reduction is intriguing as well. Ideally, a bunch of small AC motors capable of say 15-20K rpm and a 2:1 reduction so incredibly sexy - like a little electric F1 motor. Sourcing the motor/inverter combo would be the problem, as usual with AC. I wonder if an AC inverter can run multiple motors like a series DC controller can?




Woodsmith said:


> ...The cable ducts can be run from the motors like manifold pipes.


I'm holding off on that to see what kind of motors I can find. The simplest option is three tiny series DC motors and a Soliton Jr. Then it would be air-cooled, so I would have something like three CPU fans with a V-stack on each one, blowing directly into each comm end. Then the cables would be concealed, to keep the design clean. If, however, they were liquid cooled AC motors, I would probably bundle the cooling and power cables into a tube, sort of like what you're saying. I had three miniature versions of the Inhaler's blower (I love CAD ) behind the cylinders like three tiny little centrifugal superchargers, but removed them for now to concentrate on the chassis.

It's really too low to ride in traffic (approx 18" seat height, and 20" bar height, placing me too low to be seen easily) but I've been trying to get a reasonable amount of clearance for cornering. Maybe I can ride it in parks or quiet neighborhoods. Currently, it has about 30-degrees before stuff starts scraping, but I don't have the belt drive on yet. I'm planning a small transfer case on one side (probably shifting the controller to the other side a bit), and will try to raise the output shaft high enough to maintain the 30-degrees. I don't think some of my dragbikes had that much lean angle, and I rode them daily on the street.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I do like that low and lean look.

The ring and pinion got me thinking again about my big 'single cylinder' motor layout at the front of the trike. Do I do that first and then find two small high speed motors to make a Vtwin to make it more Morgan like? Could be fun. Also motor an batteries between the front wheels would allow better weight distribution and I could then sit further back.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I do like that low and lean look....


Thanks. That's my style on a motorcycle - takes me back in time just looking at it.




Woodsmith said:


> ...The ring and pinion got me thinking again about my big 'single cylinder' motor layout at the front of the trike. Do I do that first and then find two small high speed motors to make a Vtwin to make it more Morgan like? Could be fun. Also motor an batteries between the front wheels would allow better weight distribution and I could then sit further back.


Sorry if I'm pulling you back in the land of possibilities - I thought you had made a final decision on the layout, no?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The back end is settled as in chain drive on a swing arm but the motor could still be the BMW final drive and the motor could still be up front.

Until I have time to start cutting and welding metal the design is too flexible.

I will see my 'honey' next weekend and I will measure her to see if she will be sitting beside me or behind me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I will see my 'honey' next weekend and I will measure her to see if she will be sitting beside me or behind me.




If you're seriously considering it maybe you can score a couple spare final drives and look into splicing them into one V-motor drive unit. Create a fixture from one with the input at 45 (or whatever your preference is) degrees, then repeat for the other side. Cut and fit an extra input to fit one of them, in the fixture, and have 'em TIG'd together. Simple right? 

For your trike a couple 6.7" motors might probably be a nice, and give you some headroom on rpms.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

People who seem to know these things tell me an AC motor needs it's own controller, something to do with accurately sensing rotor position for phase timing, I think. At least with 3 phase induction, others might be different. I don't think you'll find small AC motors being water cooled either, or any small motor as it wouldn't be cost effective or necessary. You'll also end up with a poor power to weight ratio by using 3 motors and a gearbox to hook them all up, but it does look cool


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> People who seem to know these things tell me an AC motor needs it's own controller, something to do with accurately sensing rotor position for phase timing, I think. At least with 3 phase induction, others might be different...


I know nothing about AC drives, but figured as much. I"ll probably stick to DC on this one. The most common motors I have seen in this size are PM. I like the size of the one I bought for the Inhaler's forced-air system, but it can't take the juice I'd like to throw at it in this case. I don't plan to race it, but would like for it to _feel_ fast.




JRP3 said:


> ...I don't think you'll find small AC motors being water cooled either, or any small motor as it wouldn't be cost effective or necessary...


That's cool. I'm fine with air cooling again. Plus, I can make aircraft noises with it. 




JRP3 said:


> ...You'll also end up with a poor power to weight ratio by using 3 motors and a gearbox to hook them all up, *but it does look cool*


Thanks, and that is the point.  The only practical purpose here is to have fun. No overruling goals and guidelines for racing, marketing, efficiency, blah, blah, blah...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks, and that is the point.  The only practical purpose here is to have fun. No overruling goals and guidelines for racing, marketing, efficiency, blah, blah, blah...


I'm with you there.

Maybe I should get a second golf buggy motor to have two on the trike and then the old 12" motor can go on the tractor. No practical purpose, just for fun.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm with you there.
> 
> Maybe I should get a second golf buggy motor to have two on the trike and then the old 12" motor can go on the tractor. No practical purpose, just for fun.




The one thing I didn't really think about was batteries!  I planned to hide some LiPo or something in the tank shell, but when I narrowed it in back I kind of killed the space. I'm going to experiment with some individual LiPo cells, or maybe un-DeWalted M1s. I think there's enough space inside the shell, but I need some small cells that will allow me to be creative in packaging them. In any case, the desired tank shape dictates the battery pack specifications - fun first.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Modeled a better representation of the tank, and swapped in wire wheel centers. The tank still has some valleys and peaks it shouldn't have, and the shape isn't an exact replica of the original H1 tank, but it's close enough to get better idea of what it will look like. The wires have too many spokes (100) but, again, they're good enough to get the idea. I didn't feel like plucking spokes out to get down to 60-80 spokes.

It looks older to me, and I like that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Simon Rafferty suggested to me and Jozzer a while back the idea of using ring an pinions but two pinions per ring to get a V formation using small motors.
> 
> You can get the Harley Vtwin look or a little V6 or V8 motor set up.
> The cable ducts can be run from the motors like manifold pipes.


Hey Woody, I was mentally toying with that V-twin idea this morning and realized something. One side of the V-configuration's pinion(s) would contact the ring gear at the right angle, but the other side would be 90-degrees off. The teeth wouldn't mesh! If you just rotate the second pinion around, in proper orientation to the ring gear, the other motor would face down!

The solution I thought about was to use 4wd truck ring and pinions one front, one rear, bolted to the same carrier, opposing each other. Then the V-configuration would work, with the pinions meshing with the ring gear properly. It would also offset the motors a bit, which is commonplace for V-block engine, so it would look natural.

I might try a model of that later or tomorrow. Sounds intriguing! I'm thinking about trying something like two Mars motors (in the model), to make it look like an old panhead Harley or Indian engine.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Woody, I was mentally toying with that V-twin idea this morning and realized something. One side of the V-configuration's pinion(s) would contact the ring gear at the right angle, but the other side would be 90-degrees off. The teeth wouldn't mesh!


Yeah they would, but only if the motors were small enough and the ring gear big enough.

Imagine a ring gear as the face of a clock. We're talking spiral bevel here, not hypoid. Place one pinion at 12 o'clock and the other at 3 o'clock and you get a 90deg vee.
They wouldn't be in offset planes but, hey, they also don't have heads and mainfolds so minor difference.
If the ring gear was large enough and the motors small in diameter you could have 60deg Vee or even a radial.

A stack of ring gears on a shaft with Vee pinions would create V6 and V8 configurations.

I would like to see it with a stack of Agni motors, maybe 2 or 3 on each pinion as it would create more of a cylinder block look. Shame Agni motors don't stack, yet. Maybe even small air cooled AC motors with fins around the circumference rather then axially.

Back to back ring gears would also work to get the offset look of a conventional ICE but would add weight. However, this isn't really a weight saving idea.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ... We're talking spiral bevel here, not hypoid...


Maybe that's the difference. I'm used to the hypoid setups. I'll take a look at that later.



Woodsmith said:


> ... However, this isn't really a weight saving idea.


Nope.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...We're talking spiral bevel here, not hypoid. Place one pinion at 12 o'clock and the other at 3 o'clock and you get a 90deg vee...





toddshotrods said:


> Maybe that's the difference. I'm used to the hypoid setups...


YUP! That was it!  I had hypoid on the brain from the typical automotive differentials I am used to playing with. You can see it on the side view of the E-triple motor in my rendering - the center lines don't intersect.

This is cool!  I must get in the (digital) shop and do some experimenting today! 

Are your motorcycle diffs spiral-cut, with intersecting shaft center lines?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Preeee-zenting, for your viewing pleasure, the world's first, 1972, Kaw *RADIAL E*-Triple!!!








I started off with the intention of seeing what my creation would look like as a conventional 45-degree V-twin. I didn't really like the idea because I want to play on the _Kaw-Triple-gone-green_ theme. I cheated and downloaded a Google Sketch-up Etek model to save time. That's why the case isn't perfectly round - the SKP model isn't. I might create my own model later. The sides are kind of interesting like that though. I wonder if an Etek case has enough material to machine one like that?! 

Oops, back to the story... When I put the first Etek on the main case, it was obvious that the 45-degree twin was out. I see what you mean Woody when you said _"if the ring gear was large enough and the motors small in diameter..."_ It took 75-degrees to get the second Etek on the case! I don't want a huge main case, and a 75-degree V-twin looks like on of the early metric cruisers - not that there's anything wrong with that.  Then "radial" and "triple" merged in the vastness of my warped mind, and the radial e-triple was born! 

The number one question with this is, can a Soliton be used with brushed PM motors? It's the only controller that's "pretty" enough to sit behind that motor. Creating a "pretty" case around some other, ordinary, controller is a possibility but I'd rather have Junior under my azz.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Out of interest, why not a T-shape. Something like this:


That's 3 e-tek motors connected with a bevel gear box in the center, with the last shaft being the power out. You could also (thoeretically) add another two motors to that box (Front and back) to get even more power, if you so desired.

Just a thought.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> Out of interest, why not a T-shape...
> 
> ...3 e-tek motors connected with a bevel gear box in the center...


That's pretty interesting. The sprawling, fan-style, layout of the radial triple fits my taste better, but the T-motor idea does have it's own appeal. Five of them would be kind of cool under the hood of a small sports car. Or, if you really want to get crazy, do nine of them, and put them under the hood of an old Mazda as an electric replacement for the rotary! 

One of the biggest advantages I gained with the radial triple, over the transverse inline version is corning clearance. The whole motor assembly, even with drive belt, could be under 12".


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The motorbike ring and pinions I have, BMW K100 and Yamaha Dragstar, are both spiral bevel with intersecting axis.

The original idea came from playing with Land Rover parts. The old Rover ring and pinion is spiral bevel too, and a lot stronger then motorbike stuff and also relatively cheap and available, even in strengthened formats. A pair of Warp9s would fit nicely!
Ratios vary from 4.7:1 up to 3.54:1 IIRC.

The thoughts also revolved around adapting the splines on the pinion to fit female spline golf buggy motors or the drive shaft flange being an easy coupler to any motor, inside a nice housing.

I like the triple set up.
Some of the motors, the older style Lynch motor I think, is available in stacked pairs on the same shaft so you could have six motors on your triple for not a lot more space.
Here, Just need to redesign the suporting framework.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I like the triple set up.
> Some of the motors, the older style Lynch motor I think, is available in stacked pairs on the same shaft so you could have six motors on your triple...


Interesting, but I'll stick to my triple Etek plan for now. I just like the idea of calling it an e-triple; and for that to mean three motors replacing three cylinders. That's not a rule, it's just fun to me and triggers my creativity.

As was the case when I first started this thread, this project is good for the Inhaler. It doesn't bother me to let the Inhaler be, with the current _simple_ but effective plan, if I have somewhere else to dump the excess creative energy. Outside of the forced-air system and steering wheel, most of the Inhaler build is back down to basic hot rod/race car stuff. The focus is then on detail and precision.

Here, I get to dive into ridiculous complexity just for the sake of exploring my own special blend of creative engineering. All the excess CAD energy, and resulting heavy-azz parts, finally have a home!  Designing the main case will also push me to finally get my feet wet in the CAD engineering software I purchased last year. The one I use for this stuff is great for surface development, but not the most logical choice for engineering grade solid modeling. It takes too long to transform the "finished" models into machine-ready solid models.

Another thing that's really different about this version of Scratch is it's almost all metal. That's a huge contrast from my normal composite-intensive projects. I like it.  I'm tempted to even use a real steel tank shell for the battery pack, and build a seat shell from aluminum with a thin leather pad on it. Then everything would be left in bare metal (with flat clear coatings for corrosion protection, of course) to really highlight the engineering-biased design.

Can you tell I'm having fun?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The number one question with this is, can a Soliton be used with brushed PM motors? It's the only controller that's "pretty" enough to sit behind that motor. Creating a "pretty" case around some other, ordinary, controller is a possibility but I'd rather have Junior under my azz.


Sure, you can drive a PM motor with a Soliton1/Junior. The "field" in a PM motor is fixed so that limits your maximum torque (regardless of amperage) but the two types of motors will behave similarly when driven by a controller that regulates motor amps (not all do, so, caveat emptor, etc.)

One thing to be wary of with PM motors is that the magnets can be demagnetized - in some cases, instantly - if you run too much current through the armature. This is much less likely to occur with a "constant torque" (ie - current-regulating) controller like the Soliton1/Jr. because a transient increase in load on the motor just slows it down (current remains the same). However, you have to set the controller's motor current limit to something less than the motor's otherwise the motor will turn into an expensive paperweight in short order.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Sure, you can drive a PM motor with a Soliton1/Junior...


Excellent! Now we're cooking with fire! Thanks Jeff. 




Tesseract said:


> ...One thing to be wary of with PM motors is that the magnets can be demagnetized - in some cases, instantly...
> 
> ...the motor will turn into an expensive paperweight in short order.


Okay, okay, I'll set the limit accordingly but that makes me want to put an extra set of magnets in the budget, for the sole purpose of adding a few Eteks to Qer's list! 





So the plan is set! With the exception of snagging deals on parts occasionally, it's a CAD design project for now; though I have every intention of actually building this bike - someday. It is:

a '72 Kaw Triple dragbike - gone green, with...
a radial E-triple motor, based on...
3 Mars Eteks driving a common shaft through a spiral-cut ring and (triple) pinion gear assembly, in...
a ridiculously over the top CAD/CNC motor case, and powered by...
a Soliton Jr controller that fits in a "nest" in the main case specially designed for it, pulling "juice" from...
a LiPo pack built into the, modified, original H1 tank shell, all riding on...
a 45-degree, 66-inch, rocker arm front/mono-shock rear, chassis built from the original H1 neck and fork sliders, and a Benelli frame, with...
17x3" front wire with 110/70-17 tire, 17x12" rear wire with 330/30-17 tire, and...
driven by a (silent and clean) belt.
All natural metal, anodizing, plating - no shiny paint and powder coating, unless it's absolutely necessary (flat or satin clear okay as corrosion protection).
The point of all this is to give me some place to exercise my creativity - and leave the Inhaler alone! After the motor mounts, forced-air, and steering wheel, it's about detail and performance with the Inhaler. No more 500-hour CAD/CNC parts that keep the whole project trapped in the garage in pieces. I'm switching all that "energy" here to Scratch. The motor case and the chassis parts should keep me busy for quite a while.  When the time finally comes, the motor case is probably going to take a couple thousand bucks worth of aluminum, and a lot of time drooling over a CNC to realize. Just to get to that point, I don't even want to think about the CAD time I'll have in it. I think it's going to run all the way from the ring and pinion to the back of the controller, and be a structural component in the chassis. It'll most likely be a combination of CAD/CNC parts that have to be assembled and welded up in a fixture. Cutting the whole thing out of one solid piece of billet would be a huge waste of time and money, for what would be left of it.


Okay, I have Evnetics covered, so far. Big Sol for the Inhaler, Soliton 1 for Tailfeather, and Soliton Jr for Scratch. If they decide to develop an AC version I'll have to come up with a new project to keep up!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have no excuse for this because I have more important things to do, but... I decided to try an 11-inch motor connected to an automotive style differential.








The diff would be locked inside with a spool, and have a sprocket on each axle output - dual drive belts, one on each side of the wheel. That would allow the use of quiet, clean, belts without fear of snapping them. If one breaks the other would keep the motor from revving into the o-zone. There could be switches on the belt tensioners to cut power if a belt breaks, to keep the torque from destroying the remaining belt.

Another thought I just had is I could put the swingarm pivot in line with a u-joint or cv-joint and mount the diff solid in the arm. That would solve the problem of keeping constant tension on the belts through different arcs.

Darn Evnetics controllers are so massive the only place I could find for Jr was vertical in front of the motor! 

Of course this does nothing for my Kaw Triple theme, but it was fun to think about.  Just excersizing my imagination in CAD...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Okay, okay, I'll set the limit accordingly but that makes me want to put an extra set of magnets in the budget, for the sole purpose of adding a few Eteks to Qer's list!


Unfortunately I think I already miss a few, the actual number is probably higher...



toddshotrods said:


> Okay, I have Evnetics covered, so far. Big Sol for the Inhaler, Soliton 1 for Tailfeather, and Soliton Jr for Scratch. If they decide to develop an AC version I'll have to come up with a new project to keep up!


We'll give you some fore warning so you'll have some time figuring something out. 



toddshotrods said:


> Darn Evnetics controllers are so massive the only place I could find for Jr was vertical in front of the motor!


Which does feel like a very exposed place, which of course has both it's pros and cons...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...We'll give you some fore warning so you'll have some time figuring something out. ...


It's not like I have trouble coming up with new ideas, so just a little lead time will do! 




Qer said:


> ...Which does feel like a very exposed place, which of course has both it's pros and cons...


I know. I will experiment with different configurations of this setup eventually. Right now, I need to get back to the million and one things I actually _*need*_ to do today. I would like to get it tucked away somewhere safe. My first thought is to widen the tank and fit it there, with mesh screen or something on top and sides for cooling/visibility, but I'll have to come up with something else for the battery pack. I would have to make the mesh appeal to the senses the way the glass you see a Ferrari engine through does. That doesn't sound bad really...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have no excuse for this because I have more important things to do, but... I decided to try an 11-inch motor connected to an automotive style differential.


I've seen that idea somewhere before!

Oh yeah!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I've seen that idea somewhere before!


Well, I didn't claim it was a Todd-original!  I knew it seemed familiar, but didn't think about where I may have seen something like it! I was at an Easyriders bike show Saturday and saw this, which is what got me thinking.








I had intended to try an inline, longitudinal, triple with the diff but by the time I got around to it practicality forced the decision to try a simple, single, motor. The problem is this is kind of easy, and Scratch is supposed to be an engineering-challenge/scratch-your-head-and-figure-out-how kind of thing.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hmmm, I was just imagining a row of four little axial fans, in vertical cylinders between the motor and the tank, all blowing into a manifold that cools the motor.


The belt on each side would be interesting to see, like the old two speed Morgans.
Where would you put the brake?


Here's a question that has been making me ponder...

On a light vehicle like a trike or bike what happens with the gyroscopic forces in a really big motor?
I would imagine that it would vary depending on the orientation of the motor and changes in the movement of the bike.

I would be concerned about some unusual forces when cornering, say.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmm, I was just imagining a row of four little axial fans, in vertical cylinders between the motor and the tank, all blowing into a manifold that cools the motor.
> ...


Make that three - gotta bring the Kaw Triple idea back into the equation! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Where would you put the brake?...


On the custom bikes they have them incorporated into the sprocket. I would look at some of those calipers to see if they could be modified to clear a belt , or if there is one made already. I wonder if the chain lube ever becomes a factor with their rear brakes? The bikes I saw at the show with this setup (there were quite a few) didn't look like their rear brakes have ever been used.




Woodsmith said:


> ...Here's a question that has been making me ponder...
> 
> On a light vehicle like a trike or bike what happens with the gyroscopic forces in a really big motor?
> I would imagine that it would vary depending on the orientation of the motor and changes in the movement of the bike.
> ...


I used to wonder about that, but they've been making the V8 bikes for a while and that never seemed to be an issue. I think it rocks the bike a little bit when revving it, standing still, but the 90-degree turn to chain drive seems to minimize the effect in riding???

One way to find out...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

> On the custom bikes they have them incorporated into the sprocket. I would look at some of those calipers to see if they could be modified to clear a belt , or if there is one made already. I wonder if the chain lube ever becomes a factor with their rear brakes? The bikes I saw at the show with this setup (there were quite a few) didn't look like their rear brakes have ever been used.


That won't work. I just looked at some pics and they mount the caliper in the front of the sprocket/brake disc (at 9 or 3 o'clock) where there is no chain to interfere.

I would need to have separate brake discs inboard of the belt sprockets.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I used to wonder about that, but they've been making the V8 bikes for a while and that never seemed to be an issue. I think it rocks the bike a little bit when revving it, standing still, but the 90-degree turn to chain drive seems to minimize the effect in riding???
> 
> One way to find out...


The thing with a big ICE bike is that there isn't that much gyroscopic forces relative to the reciprocating forces. Blipping the throttle would cause some torque reaction though.

I was thinking of a big motor at speed would be quite a gyroscope and the old bike wheel and swivel chair effect might come into play.





I know the mass in the armature is really compact to the axis but still, there is a lot of mass there.

On a motorbike the same effect from the wheels keep it upright and allow for counter steering.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That won't work. I just looked at some pics and they mount the caliper in the front of the sprocket/brake disc (at 9 or 3 o'clock) where there is no chain to interfere.
> 
> I would need to have separate brake discs inboard of the belt sprockets.


Have you looked at the Buel discs? The caliper goes inside the disc as the disc is on the wheel rim.








What if you had a similar thing at a smaller diameter but inside the mounting is the brake disc and outside the mounting is the pulley teeth?

Can you see what I mean?


Did the interweb just blow a fuse????
The forum was just gone for a few minutes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The thing with a big ICE bike is that there isn't that much gyroscopic forces relative to the reciprocating forces. Blipping the throttle would cause some torque reaction though...


Okay, I see what you're saying now. I was thinking about torque. Interesting to think about. Nice video, that was fun to watch!  Like I said, only one way to find out... 





Woodsmith said:


> Have you looked at the Buell discs? The caliper goes inside the disc as the disc is on the wheel rim.
> 
> What if you had a similar thing at a smaller diameter but inside the mounting is the brake disc and outside the mounting is the pulley teeth?
> 
> Can you see what I mean?...


Yup, I can see it. That's also very popular in custom bikes (big disc bolted to the rim). It would make the whole setup neater. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Did the interweb just blow a fuse????
> The forum was just gone for a few minutes...


I know, I almost went into withdrawal!


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Woody,
No need to go inside/outside, chopper builders have been using a sprocket brake setup for a while now.

See: http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2008/01/20/exile-sprocket-brake-kit/

Eric






Woodsmith said:


> Have you looked at the Buel discs? The caliper goes inside the disc as the disc is on the wheel rim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

esoneson said:


> Woody,
> No need to go inside/outside, chopper builders have been using a sprocket brake setup for a while now...


That's what I thought at first, but we're talking belt drive here (to have the cleanest, "greenest", quietest, setup possible) and the caliper won't fit over the belt sprocket. Woody's suggestion would work though because then the caliper is coming from the inside where there aren't any belt teeth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, I can't believe I haven't posted here since February! Woody got me all riled up with those sweet motor mount fab pics, and I had to channel my energy somewhere!

_Refresher:_ Scratch is my personal piece of freedom, for when I feel a little creatively-claustrophobic with the Inhaler's mission in life. There, I can now only do what must be done, here I can do whatever the heck I feel like doing. Creative freedom - ahhhh! 

Reading about the EnerTrac hub motors being used in race bikes, in Rip's thread, burned the thought of complete design freedom in my head. I actually started modeling on that thought quite a while ago, but it took a while to get the idea of a conventional chain, shaft, or belt, driven bike out of my head. I am so in love with this idea now! I think I am definitely going to build it, but when is a huge question mark. I think I will have between $3000 - $5000 in the rear wheel alone, to do it how I want it, and I have more important things to do with the money right now. Good thing the virtual build is relatively free! 














Some of the details:

The hub motor size probably isn't accurate, and the current axle size (1") is way off from the 60mm the EnerTrac uses. It would also be 36-spoke, as opposed to the 100 or so I have here.
Thinking of machining custom stainless "rod ends", that would use 60mm i.d. spherical bearings, to maintain the look I have here - upscaled "a bit" of course.
The lines in the side view that flow forward from the swingarm, will eventually be the lower frame rails - probably 1" tubing (2" on the backbone). The idea here isto make it look almost bicycle like.
The small auxillary tank under the main "fuel" tank will actually be barrel-shaped, like a miniature keg. Somehow, I want it to be the controller. First thoughts are centered around machining an elaborate case to hold an Open Revolt controller, that would have heat sink fins machined right in the lower section. Unless Evnetics wants to collaborate on a one-off, mini-kegger, case for Junior... 
The main tank will hold whatever amount of LiPo cells that will fit - range is subordinate to appearance.
The seat pan is a CAD/CNC plate with a recess for a really thick, embossed, baseball-stitched, leather "pad". Elephant skin leather comes to mind. Comfort level is irrelevant.
Color would be pearl-candy-metallic, burnt, orange - on the "fuel" tank, frame, and swingarm. Everything else would have various metal finishes. The orange color is because that was the color of my 72 Kaw Triple - the bike I am recreating, so to speak.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Wow, I can't believe I haven't posted here since February! Woody got me all riled up with those sweet motor mount fab pics, and I had to channel my energy somewhere!


Glad to be of service!



toddshotrods said:


> Thinking of machining custom stainless "rod ends", that would use 60mm i.d. spherical bearings, to maintain the look I have here - upscaled "a bit" of course.


What would you use to transmit the drive torque? It all has to go through the 60mm shaft into the swingarm and frame.
If you have a spherical bearing then the bearing will spin instead of the wheel and motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...What would you use to transmit the drive torque? It all has to go through the 60mm shaft into the swingarm and frame.
> If you have a spherical bearing then the bearing will spin instead of the wheel and motor.


If I understand the product description correctly, it uses a torque arm that extends from the hub motor to the swingarm to control that - feeding torque back into the chassis. Did I assume incorrectly?



> EnerTrac is pleased to offer, arguably the most powerful hub motor currently for sale to the upgrade market and readily available to the general public for gas to electric motorcycle conversions. This motor was designed to make the gas to electric motorcycle conversion easy, with such features as a 60mm O.D. hollow axle designed to accept the standard bolt axle used in almost all motorcycles. *What is required with a motorcycle conversion using a hub motor is the design of a torque arm that prevents the axle from rotating. This Torque Arm was designed for direct integration into most motorcycles swing arms.* Other features of this design that stand out when compared with other hub motors are large mounting area and easy mounting of a Disc Rotor, and high efficiency design.
> 
> No other hub motor on the market today is design exclusively for the motorcycle conversion market. The motor uses a higher voltage, lower current design to minimize losses from wire heating. It is able to achieve 10KW continuous and up to 30KW peak. The motor is thermally protected when using the recommended Kelly Controller to prevent overheating and burn out. The Hub motor is designed for motorcycles weighing less than 400 pounds with the batteries (dry weight, no rider).
> The Hub motor will come laced to DOT compliant rim, WM3 style 36 hole, 18 X 2.15, other sizes available on special order, or order just the motor and have a rim of your choice spoked onto the motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That seems right.

I think from the hub motors I've seen they are built like a drum brake. One side has a large (motor diameter) flange fixed to the shaft and that then supports a torque reaction rod that is braced to the front end of the swing arm, or sometimes to the frame under the swingarm pivot.

A torque arm splined to the axle to take the reaction rod would do just as well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...A torque arm splined to the axle to take the reaction rod would do just as well.


I like that idea, because I could really hide it behind the swingarm. I could also come up with a mount that locates the brake caliper directly to the arm, eliminating a visible torque arm on the other side. Then creatively hide the power cables, and I have a really clean setup.

I'm still working on the geometry and spring/damping mechanism for the front that creates a rocker or girder front suspension that looks like forks that are completely compressed. The lower sections are actually the sliders from the original Kaw forks. I need to go get my front end and neck soon, before he does something stupid with them (if he hasn't already).


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm just thinking. Out loud here...hope you don't mind...

If this is a design freedom kind of thing... 

Motorcycles have always had a certain look, mainly due to having a way to package the engine/fuel and drivetrain. The hub motor basically eliminates all of that. So, why not go wild with that? Something really crazy... No tanks... Just wheels, seat and frame. If you could figure out how to package something like the headways cells inside the frame to hide the power source... Even better...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> I'm just thinking. Out loud here...hope you don't mind...
> 
> If this is a design freedom kind of thing...
> 
> Motorcycles have always had a certain look, mainly due to having a way to package the engine/fuel and drivetrain. The hub motor basically eliminates all of that. So, why not go wild with that? Something really crazy... No tanks... Just wheels, seat and frame. If you could figure out how to package something like the headways cells inside the frame to hide the power source... Even better...


Haha! Have you been talking with my friend and business associate here? One of the guys on Team Inhaler and I are planning to build some crazy, extreme, motorcycles soon and that was what he said. He has wanted to do pretty much what you just said for a while, and we are planning to do it - but not with Scratch.

Scratch is my design freedom - to do whatever I want to do, without business, marketing, or racing, constraints. I happen to love motorcycle fuel tanks. Two wheels, a seat, and a tank, (and usually an engine), are the visual cues that appeal to me. In this case, that old 72 Kaw Triple tank is the signature piece to me. That's one reason I was happy to move to a hub motor - it allowed me to really feature my tank. The tank itself is actually a scratch-built CAD model of what I see in a 74-75 H1 Kaw tank. Like a guy hammering out a replica in steel or aluminum - I did it in software.

I love, love, love, my tank! 

Keep the ideas and comments coming though, it makes this more fun - and they could be used in other projects later.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Completely understand. I like 30's style Motorcycles myself and 50's styles Street Rods... I usually look at early mechanical things as an art form.

Have Fun..


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> ...I usually look at early mechanical things as an art form.
> 
> Have Fun..


Me too. Will do!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Here are some pictures of bikes for inspiration:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=f242625b103d3e9f&sc=photos#!/?cid=f242625b103d3e9f&sc=photos&nl=1&uc=131&id=F242625B103D3E9F%21505


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Here are some pictures of bikes for inspiration...


Nice stuff in there! Thanks for sharing!


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> This seating position issue has been stuck in my head since page 1, so today I decided to see if I would even be able to ride this thing. I created a clunky little 3D "me" and proceeded to digitally fold myself onto this bike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


bikes with low rider position (like Alligator,etc) - interesting http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/alligator_tech.html


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

One thing to remember with a recumbent is; some people have a harder time balancing at slow speeds; the lower they sit the worst it gets.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

few more pics - lowrider, mec.art


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> bikes with low rider position (like Alligator,etc)...


I've seen that Gurney bike before on some TV show or special. Pretty cool.




ken will said:


> One thing to remember with a recumbent is; some people have a harder time balancing at slow speeds; the lower they sit the worst it gets.


I can understand why with a true recumbent because, the lower and more horizontal you go, the more leverage you lose. Dragbikes, on the other hand, are very easily (IMO) to balance and control. Some of it is due to the longer trail usually present in a dragbike's front suspension geometry, but your weight is also forward and down into the bars, which gives great leverage - ditto for sportbikes.

The thing that makes Scratch a little more challenging to be comfortable on is the fact that I have my legs kicked forward, cruiser and chopper style. On a dragbike setup like Scratch, the pegs would usually be far back behind the rider - we call that a lay-down bike. That would not be practical for the street, so...

I've seen guys riding Harleys with feet forward, and low or clip-on bars, doubled over. It looks uncomfortable, but also kind of cool.  It's just more extreme in this case, but comfort isn't really in the plan anyway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Somehow, in my series DC obsession, I missed this whole thread. The discussion over Cro's BLDC supercar motors, led me to doing some (Wikipedia) reading on BLDC, which led me to wonder if the EnerTrac motors were PM or BLDC, which led me to Google "EnerTrac motors" (or something like that), which led me to discover that thread.

That all led me to the beauty of siamesed hub motors in Scratch's fat azz rear wheel and tire!  This gets my juices flowing!!!  I emailed Mark today, just to make sure he wouldn't say no-way, I refuse to help to with that kind of madness - no issues there. The Inhaler Project is moving towards standing on its own financially, and since I now have a 15-person team to help make it work, I will eventually divert a sizable amount of my time and attention to making this a reality - I simply can't resist it!

I think it might make a nice stable mate for the Inhaler, for certain events. Remember this is my place to exercise my creative muscles, without racing and marketing constraints. It would be the insane Inhaler's ridiculous little brother. Serves no real purpose in life, other than to hang out looking cool. 

Plus, with dual EnerTracs and a little pack of LiPo cells, I should be able to light that big tire up.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume you've seen this:
http://enertracrawfeed.blogspot.com/2011/07/dual-motor-big-bikes-get-hub-motor.html


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Hmmm, it would make an awfully nice pit bike for when you are running the inhaler... Or if it isn't too great a heresy, use it to tow the Inhaler back after a 1/4 mile pass...


toddshotrods said:


> I think it might make a nice stable mate for the Inhaler, for certain events. Remember this is my place to exercise my creative muscles, without racing and marketing constraints. It would be the insane Inhaler's ridiculous little brother. Serves no real purpose in life, other than to hang out looking cool.
> 
> Plus, with dual EnerTracs and a little pack of LiPo cells, I should be able to light that big tire up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I assume you've seen this:
> http://enertracrawfeed.blogspot.com/2011/07/dual-motor-big-bikes-get-hub-motor.html


Was totally oblivious to it, until Mark sent a pic of it today. I didn't see the video.

I'm like salivating at the thought of this bike now. I have some details to resolve with concealing the controller and fitting enough LiPo under the tank shell, but can't wait to start. Just like with the Inhaler, one day I will take a ride back to my old shop to get my original H1 neck and forks, and then the thing begins. We're planning to build a motorcyle frame table at the shop soon, so building Scratch's little frame will be a piece of cake. A few sticks of tubing through the roller, some notching, and a little TIG work...

I can get a front wheel from a sportbike from Ebay cheap to set up the front end, a 330 tire on a car wheel to set up the rear (I have the GSXR coil-over shock already), cut the tank shell in foam, and the basic form will be there to start working out the real-world details of what will fit and work where. Things tend to look _*much *_bigger in CAD than they do in real life. I need to model some of Ron's cells under my tank shell soon to see how many feet it will go after the burnout!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Hmmm, it would make an awfully nice pit bike for when you are running the inhaler...


Exactly. 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ... Or if it isn't too great a heresy, use it to tow the Inhaler back after a 1/4 mile pass...


Who cares what "the people" think - that would be funny to see! 

Then hop on the little two-feet tall chopper/dragbike and do a big smoky burnout, on the way to get hot dogs, pizza, and beverages, for the crew!


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