# 1930 Model A Roadster build



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The first order of business is to inspect the transmission. This one is a 1964 thru 1966 model. (single metal vent). It had a rear pump (Pressure tap at right/rear bulkhead). Removed when built by TCI. A rear pump is only good for push-starting an ICE.

It was operating when removed. SO, I pulled the pan, it was clean. the filter was clean. I tapped out the pan plug to 1/4NPT for a temp sender (it is a sensor AND a drain plug), installed a new gasket, torqued the pan back on. I checked the shaft endplay with a dial indicator, it was a little on the tight side, but I decided to fly with it. I next removed the outputshaft housing. (again, very clean inside). The speedo drive gears had been removed for racing, they need to go back in. Then change the front and rear seals. Paint it green...LOL then power train assembly can begin. 










Note the direct drive coupler. They come in two Chevy types, Early & late. Early has a 3-5/8" bolt circle and two piece oil seal, and the late has a 3" bolt circle and a one piece seal. (Also called their "crate engine") Get the one that matches your adapter kit....!!! They all have an adjustment for length. on the first snap ring groove, the center shaft does not protrude from the flange (pictured). It cannot do so because of the supplied motor coupler inner bore is too small. Mine was 3/8" too long...PROBLEM....*Option 1*-Move flange to the 3rd snap ring groove to make the length correct. Then lathe turn my new coupler to open up the center bore to accept the center shaft. OR *Option 2*- shorten the shaft from the rear (my choice). Also shorten the transmission inner drive shaft 3/8" too. It was an hours work and easy to do at home. Now everything bolts up perfectly!

More pics comming.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

be advised that Randy at Evcan builds a really precise adapter. I had to scrape the paint out of the mounting holes to get the bolts through.

Other than that I'm jealous.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The AC50....










The adapter-hub-direct drive coupler











Dont forget...when assembling anything, always check for dents, flaws and burrs. file-emery paper-clean, even re-tap threads before assembling. Dont forget the locktite on all set screws.

Yes, warm up the hub before sliding onto the motor shaft, it is a tight fit. It avoids a lot of hammering. Always own a brass drift. it is a necessary tool for all mechanics.

Next: goes the coupler shaft. It uses Allen headed cap screws for flywheel bolts-blue locktite and verbal encouragement. The transmission carefully sets down on top. (suspended from my engine crane and lowered down slowly is best).

I am a state worker, I took three days off this week in order to speed up the build. 

(five day weekend/wife not home/refrigerator stocked/major parts are in= good vacation)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice!  I'm happy to see another hot rod build, and especially one that is more traditional than mine. I think electric is an great option for 20s and 30s era cars. I love where you're going with the parts selection and assembly...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, I finally have the last pieces I need to assemble the traction drive, finish paint the transmission and set it in the car. 

The motor gets 75' of 1/4" copper tubing wrapped around it for the water cooling circuit. I am using the nice new aluminum 1932 Ford radiator for the water cooling heat ex changer (it also holds the grille shell and hood in this car. not the reverse as in late model autos..). The transmission (of coarse) and the controller are water cooled also.










NOTE: The car had a 12VDC inline fuel pump. It pumped a volatile petro based, water soluable fluid (gasoline) and lived a very long life. In my world it should be able to be used to pump another water based petro fluid, anti freeze....So using that hypotheses, I am using three 12VDC inline electric fuel pumps to circulate the coolant in my cooling system. Only direct experience will tell how long this will last. I am guessing maybe it will rust the pump internally if anything. We shall see....

1 year later edit: The fuel pumps are still doing fine. No problems.


I am making the transmission and controller heat ex changers. I will post pics of them when done. Soon I hope. (one is fabbed, one will be cast)

Meanwhile I was able to get a driveshaft measurment when the trans was in the car. I'm sending the aluminum driveshaft to the regular drivetrane Shop to get cut down and a powerglide yoke installed. 

MIZ


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Assembly of drive motor to transmission*

Well, the last three days have been very productive. I have been able to get everything assembled and installed in the car as a unit. (BTW: it balances perfectly with the chain shown).










In the car.








Many thanks to my son, Kevin and my best/f Mac for the caring hands.
No scratches or bumps....

Tomorrow: Start hooking it up.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Motor heat exchanger tubing:*

I have already had a question about the water cooling tubing on the motor. It is about 76 feet of common 1/4" copper tubing. 

RIGHT SIDE:









The motor was suspended vertically from the drive hub with a chain. 
The tube was anchored,to start, to the electrical wires with a Zip tie. Then wound tightly to the motor. It took two strong people to keep it tight. Horizonal might have been better, set on "Vee" blocks. The tubing was then anchored on the loose ends with two "P" clamps set under the electrical terminal support block screws. (Top pic)

LEFT SIDE:









I ran two lines of solder down opposite sides (shown in both pics) and at both loose ends for support. The soldering had another side effect: It shrank the tubing even tighter to the motor housing.

The hose barbs were sweated to the ends. The tubing cleaned and clear coated two coats to retard corrosion.

*1 year later edit:* The motor cooling effort only reduces the temps. from 62C to 55C. Looking back, I would only do it if I was seeing motor temps over 100C.


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Looking really good....


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The drive unit is bolted to the transmission crossmember at the rear mount. The front end is held to height by a floor jack and centered in the frame. Measurements have been taken, mid and front mounts will be fabbed up.

I have decided to assemble the car in a "Mark 1" state (meaning not all improvements will be done at first). Nothing will be water cooled to begin with. That way it will let me get a set of DATA for the transmission temp, Motor temp and controller temps without any special treatment. Then I will phase in the water cooling circuits one at a time. I will wind up with some great before and after data to compare. 

I simply plugged the transmission cooling ports with common 1/8" NPT plugs. After all, some applications were factory air cooled to begin with and I will not even have the torque converter to make heat. My oval track experience indicates the temp range without a converter is somewhere between 140 and 190 Deg. F. This lets me use my existing engine water temp guage for the transmission oil temp. I just retapped the pan threads to 1/4NPT and bushed it 1/4" to 1/8" to screw in the sensor. 

Meanwhile, I have started on the battery racks. I have measured them at least ten times using 3-4 slight variations. I have finally settled on one design and will start cutting metal tomorrow.

G'nite all, I'm going to bed. MIZ


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Happy fathers day to all us Dads. If we can scold ourselves, we can take a pat on the back too. Take a long look at our children/grandchildren and appreciate what they are. One of lifes truly great joys.


Didnt get much done today. Cut battery box pieces. Measured and diagrammed the motor mounts again. Darn, how i hate myself for correcting myself all the time. 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a decent throttle pot? Some say the curtis pb6, some say the pb8, but I am looking for something better. I am going to drive the tires off of this and dont want to skimp or make do...

Miz


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Happy fathers day to all us Dads. If we can scold ourselves, we can take a pat on the back too. Take a long look at our children/grandchildren and appreciate what they are. One of lifes truly great joys.
> 
> 
> Didnt get much done today. Cut battery box pieces. Measured and diagrammed the motor mounts again. Darn, how i hate myself for correcting myself all the time.
> ...


I would suggest getting a used Hall-effect pedal from one of the late-model cars like the BMW mini; BMW has been using this type of pedal since the late 1990's. I've seen them on Ebay for less than a PB6.

(Edit) I don't recall the exact details but BMW's pedals also use two signals to prevent errant (uncommanded) power signals, 0-5V for throttle position and a second 1-3V (I think) to verify that the pedal position corresponds to the original 0-5V signal.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do you have the means to reprogram the controller for hall effect?
I'll be interested in seeing how your water cooling for the motor turns out, but I don't think motor heat has ever been an issue for the HPEVs systems considering the limited power of the controllers. Of course you're in the desert so...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The supplier of my AC50/controller has tweaked the programming a little for me to start with. (Thx AL) 

But I plan to get the software and Data link as I have a seven year old "stupid" lap top in my shop that I used to program a timing computer on a previous car. It will be perfect for this.


I am a 60 year old desert dweller and am very aware of vehicle heat issues and believe there is no such thing as overkill. LOL

I am interested as to the differences between dry and water. It will be entertaining.

I am more concerned about that motor air intake facing forwards, hanging open 2 feet behind the front axle and so close to the ground...dirt...water...










I have a front motor mount plate that has a 6" diameter flange on it so I can clamp on a 6" I.D. flex tube and get air up high under the hood.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Some progress. This is the rough unpainted front crossmember/ motor mount. It sets on my original frame mounts. It incorporates a 6" flange for a flex tube to run the motor intake air up high out of the dirt and wet.










Tomorrow, I plan to put my speed o gears and drive cable spindle in the trans. that will allow me to permanently mount the power unit and then make a cardboard template of the mid mount at the bell housing.

Next week the drive-shaft gets cut down. Mid mounts made and controller mounted so wiring can begin. I have to cut open my existing harness to redo it from ICE to EV configuration. The controller harness is awesome as-is.

<He smiles as he types> MIZ


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, More progress. Saturday was good to me. I was able to get in 8 Hrs. of work before I was driven inside at 104 Degrees. It will be 110 by this afternoon, tomorrow and tuesday.


This is what it looks like sitting in the car permanently. I am making the mid-mounts at the bellhousing in this Pic.








The transmission speedo gears are installed and everything is bolted down. 



When I look inside that motor and see the tiny clearance between the armature and fields, I can not help but wonder what dust and moisture would do over time. This is the plan to keep clean air supplied to the motor.

A 6" duct to put the air intake up high under the hood out of the dirt and water from the road....Maybe an air filter too... Or am I just paranoid?

OK, I did get the low and High voltage manual switches installed on the deck between the seats and the clutch linkage almost done.

I guess I have put it off long enough...The dreaded battery boxes are next. 

Miz


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

Being a Motor Rewinder when I was young we had a lot of motors that we burnt out because water or dirt got in the things and either shorted em, or got between the rotor and stator and jammed em... I would put an air filter on if it is not going to be protect any other way.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi Tat: i am currently lookingfor a decent 6" ducted fan to go inside the flex duct to assure an adequate air flow. Especially when there is an air cleaner.

An AC50 has a small radial fan at the drive end. It depends on the ram air effect of driving to assist it. A tube blocks that air and must be compensated for.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Certainly a ram effect would help but my mid engined car certainly has very little if any and motor heat has never been an issue, even in 90F temps. The Curtis controllers are harder to keep cool than the motors. I agree you'll need some assist to overcome the restriction of ducting and filter, plus having a blower will cool the motor better at lower speeds and when stopped.


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Hi Tat: i am currently lookingfor a decent 6" ducted fan to go inside the flex duct toassure anadequate air flow. Especially when there is an air cleaner.
> 
> An AC50 has a small radial fan at the drive end. It depends on the ram air effect of driving to assist it. A tube blocks that air and must be compensated for.
> 
> Miz


mmmmm just thinking, are you going to have a intake on the hood like a Cobra or Subaru WRX or something ??

I have a idea .. but need to know when your hood will look like


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Tat: My hood is almost identical to this:












It is one piece top with two side panels. not hinged together, just latched.

BTW: My Curtis FP6 and PB6 showed up. They are on my list to install this weekend. As is my mid-motor mounts and driveshaft.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Progress, finally*

The days here are setting at 104-108 with 117 Degrees promised today. I dont get much work done on the car after work weekdays.

Today, I did get some things done...








My new 33" driveshaft is in. The rear transmission mount is tightened and safety wired. The left red knob is the traction pack disconnect, the right is the 12DC switch. Both located between the seats, in easy reach.


The mid mounts are fabbed, painted and installed.









With the front mount, the power unit is installed and done.

The underfloor battery boxes are started. I have sized them so even though I am using FLA 6V batteries, I can upgrade later when I can afford them.









The underfloor battery racks must be made in the car, but the front & rear racks can be bench welded then bolted in place. (my job tomorrow and July 4th......)


May everyone value and recognize the great life we enjoy here...The greatest nation on earth.(Even if we are not perfect). 
Take time to remember all our wonderful people that serve and served our country. You are talking to some of them on this board, even if you dont know it, (no, not me)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, Today, I got the under floor battery trays partly framed. The top rims must be done in the car. The lower floors will be faster tomorrow. Then the rear box between the roll bar and lastly the front over the motor.

18 batteries in all. 

Someday soon, I hope. miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I got the floors of the two under floor big boxes done today. It got hot even faster than yesterday. I started at 5AM and was forced inside at 11AM. Whew.

I took thursday and friday off as vacation, so i can accelerate this battery box deal. It is quite time consuming. 

I completed the shifter and bolted the top rim of the two big boxes into the car solid. They await the bottoms to be hung in and welded up.

I promise pics when they are whole as they do not look like much ATM.

Grrrrrrrr! The pinion seal leaks in the rear axle........I guess that new 5.13:1 ring and pinion is going to be sooner than later.

Miz


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

the EV addition has started 
Great progress! The open body appears ideal to work on.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*The dreaded battery boxes*

Progress is slow here due to the weather and life in general. But here is some progress.

View from drivers side. they hold 4 6Volters per side. The right side has the 12Volt Aux battery.









View from rear towards the front.









The ground clearance is ideal. they are 1-1/2" higher than the rear diff housing. 











In case you were wondering, the overall car looks kinda like this:










Now to draw up the front box that holds 4-6Volters, the mid box that holds 5 and the small one below the tail behind the rear axle that holds 3.
Total of 20 batteries at a 120VDC pack. In later years when the car is sorted and I can afford Lithiums, I will have a LOT of options as to where to put them...lOL

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking really good. 

Just two things. 
The roll hoop needs a diagonal and what's the barrel for?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It was a delibrate decision to not do a diagonal or x brace in the hoop. Any type of roll over in this type of vehicle is unhealthy.....lol I did upgrade to .240" chrome moly to compensate. I was a racecar fabricator/crewchief for most of my life. I built this toy to be lightweight, simple, oldschool, street driven. The prevoius ICE drivetrane was getting on my nerves and was not interesting enough....so....

The "barrel"......I suppose whisky and a straw....Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The "barrel"......I suppose whisky and a straw....Miz


Sounds good!
Better to drink it then burn it.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Sounds good!
> Better to drink it then burn it.


Hey, looking REAL good. When time to install the 1238 controller, I have some ideas on water cooling to keep the temperature down. I am in the process of installing one on mine as I have run the temp up to over 85c at which case it starts to cut back. cruisin


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks Al. Will do. I have seen the one the guy on Evtv has done. While it is nice work, I feel it does not have sufficient passages and could be better.

Im always looking for something better. Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Some progress*

Greetings all:

Slight progress, 

Just working on the battery pack frames...Sheesh!

Miz


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Looking awesome


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's looking really good, the front battery frame really shows how low down the motor is.
Any plans for a guard or sheild under the motor to protect it from puddle splashes and stone chips?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

To be quite honest, I really havent given it any thought. 

The motor is fairly well sealed and pressurized when running and the motor intake is going to have a 6" flex hose connected to place the air intake up high under the hood.

I guess the answer is yes. There will ultimately be a shield of some type. The copper cooling tubes will be naked and susceptible to damage. 

My goal was to have all the weight as low as possible. I really am not fond of the rear battery pack being up that high. 560lbs. will transfer around quite a bit.

The bright side is that I only need to tolerate this set up for a few years. After I save up for a better storage source, it will be possible to discard the rear mount completely.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today was fantastic. I got all of the battery mounts welded, ground, painted, and most wood panels installed. Thanks to my son for all of the help. 

The wood is the cheapest OSB I could get. But, Each panel has a minimum of two coats of polyurethane varnish before installation. Then is adhesived in place, then calked around the edges. They each will have a 1/2" drain at the lowest point. 

When dry, they will have an interior coating of "gripper" rubberized primer for acid resistance.

The rear axle has been stripped and is under going a change of gears.....3.55 to 6.14....gives me 50 in low and 90 in high gear. With wasting no time in acceleration...lol



The battery mounts are all welded or bolted in permanently now.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As stated somewhere above, not much happens here during the weekdays. Today was 108 and humid. Not much incentive to get out there and get moving on the car.

But I have been doing research on my low voltage wiring, routing and bundle locations. in these pics it shows some of the ICE wiring leftover. It is going to get a "haircut" and simplified a bunch.

I have built into the car, a dedicated electrical panel. It is a shelf that lays flat under the dashboard, in the middle of the car. Most everything mounts to it and it hinges down for ease of access and repairs.








When the shelf is up and fastened, it is invisible. 

Can anyone please explain to me how this little piece of shit can handle up to 400Amps? 








(My lame attempt at humor)


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

If you use puny cable lugs like that one on the left, you might not even need that fuse.

Later,
Keith


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Can anyone please explain to me how this little piece of shit can handle up to 400Amps? 








(My lame attempt at humor)[/QUOTE]


Because Andre-Marie Ampere and Thomas Edison SAY SO!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Can anyone please explain to me how this little piece of shit can handle up to 400Amps?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You bolt each end of the fuse to a heavy copper lug with a 4/0 cable. Oh, keep everything else at least 12 inches away! (and cross your fingers)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Additional fuse question:*

I have seen on several schematics where this fuse (or a breaker) is placed between the packs and not just before the controller. 

Is there any reason for this? 



ALSO: Yes, I am rethinking my priorities and investigating my battery strategy. I used the little battery calculator on a well known web site and it tells me that 120 VDC @ 70AH of Lithiums is very close to 120VDC @ 225AH of FLA's in range and overall performance when factoring in the weight savings of about 1,000# lbs.

Cost FLA's = $2,400- Lifepo4= $3,600


I have to buy a charger anyways, so it does not enter the equation.
Plus all of them will fit into the underfloor battery container. Letting me remove the other two and clean up the car.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

If you put a breaker in the middle of the pack, you have lower voltage (safer) working (maintenance, repair) conditions. Some of the guys with very high voltage packs install a number of breakers for that reason.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Additional fuse question:*



mizlplix said:


> ALSO: Yes, I am rethinking my priorities and investigating my battery strategy. I used the little battery calculator on a well known web site and it tells me that 120 VDC @ 70AH of Lithiums is very close to 120VDC @ 225AH of FLA's in range and overall performance when factoring in the weight savings of about 1,000# lbs.
> 
> Cost FLA's = $2,400- Lifepo4= $3,600


As long as your C rates are within the parameters of the 70AH cells, less than 3C constant, (lower is better), which is 210 amps. Are there 70AH cells?


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: Additional fuse question:*



mizlplix said:


> I have seen on several schematics where this fuse (or a breaker) is placed between the packs and not just before the controller.
> 
> Is there any reason for this?
> 
> ...


My understanding: You should have a fuse right off the positive side of the pack. If you have more than main group of cells (i.e.: front and rear packs), you want a fuse between them in case the two wires short somehow.

corbin


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Additional fuse question:*



corbin said:


> My understanding: You should have a fuse right off the positive side of the pack. If you have more than main group of cells (i.e.: front and rear packs), you want a fuse between them in case the two wires short somehow.
> 
> corbin


Hey Corbin, you are right on the money. On a split pack a fuse belongs on the B+ at the controller and between packs. Amp Meter belongs on the B- at the controller. Any circuit breaker or disconnect should always be on the B+ at the controller. These suggestions are also on the schematic included with the AC-50.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

http://www.evsource.com/battery_calculator.php

has 70AH listed in their calculator page. Cant say if they sell them. When factored by the modest weight reduction, they appear to be in the neighborhood of the FLA's I was to use, (without the weight penalty).

I was advised initally to use 180-200AH batteries or I would be disappointed with the range and performance, but after doing a bit more research, I am getting other information.

Like maybe 100AH pack would do my job nicely.

2000# car, 40 mile minimum range per charge. 

6.14 -1 gearing gives me 40 in low, 90 in high. (at 6,500 RPMS)

Modest acceleration. (Not stock VW slow, not V-8 Camaro fast, between somewhere)

It looks like I might delay driving 3-6 more months to afford them though.

Yes, this fuse goes after pack 2 before contactor on B+.
Yes I have a manual disconnect switch after pack 2 before controller B+.
I WILL get a second fuse and place it between packs then.

Thanks to all who provided input. 

Hey, AL. Hows the cold plate coming?

Miz


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Gottdi says that thundersky is selling cells for 1.10 per amp hour. So if you are going to get lithiums that sounds like a good place to start looking. that would only be like 3800 ish.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Like maybe 100AH pack would do my job nicely.
> 
> 2000# car, 40 mile minimum range per charge.


My 2500 lb Fiero gets 40-50 miles from 36 100ah CALBs, lots of hills, mixed driving.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, Today, We installed the new 6.14-1 gears in the rear axle. Talk about a cluster F**k! The new ring gear is so thick that the rear cover will not go back on. I need to dimple it to clear the corners of the teeth. Well, no biggie...lol

I started on the low voltage wiring, removing the useless parts and laying in the new circuits.

My new transmission charge pump showed up UPS. It is a 150PSI-12VDC, diaphragm type. It is mounted to the under side of the floor. It pulls fluid from the transmission pan and pressurizes the forward apply circuit. It is turned on by the N/C side of the pot switch when the key is on. If there is no throttle being applied, the pump is enabled. When the transmission apply pressure falls below 100PSI, the pumps internal pressure switch turns it on and pumps it up to 150PSI before shutting off. Repeating the cycle until I step on the pot to drive the car again, at which time the transmission main pump provides the pressure keeping the pump turned off. It has a 275 deg. F. operating temp. (The transmission is water cooled and should not get much over 140 Deg. F.) It has Viton valves and should be compatible with ATF.

NOTE: After 6 months of use, the pump is still working well and when wired to key switched on, shuts off when driving and the transmission pump pressure comes up. It automatically turns on when I roll to a stop.(with in 2 seconds)

It would be a good policy to install a check valve in the hose to the transmission to stop the shift pressure spikes from bulging the plastic housing.









I also built a small 2 cup accumulator to buffer the pump if needed. (not needed after all)

My new turbine air fans showed up also.








They are for venting the under battery boxes and work quite well. Great volume, surprising pressure and modest cost.
NOTE: they are loud....cause they move lots of air.

More tomorrow, Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Additional fuse question:*



corbin said:


> My understanding: You should have a fuse right off the positive side of the pack. If you have more than main group of cells (i.e.: front and rear packs), you want a fuse between them in case the two wires short somehow.


Each individual pack (battery location) should have its own fuse before the power cables leave. Having a fuse near B+ is a fine idea, but I recommend it be in the most positive battery box. Over-current protection should be as close to the current source(s) as possible.

My Buggy has a single pack fuse located between the right hand and left hand battery packs.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Battery and conductor routing*

Greetings to all:


At this point, running FLA batteries, I have 4 packs. (I hope to secure funds to change to lithiums before the car is finished) 

1- (4 battery) front pack.

2- (4 battery) under floor packs, 

1- (8 battery) rear pack.

Main conductor routing= 

From controller Battery - terminal to front pack -.
Front pack + to right/under pack -.
Right under + to Second 400 Amp fuse.
Second 400 Amp fuse to rear pack -.
Rear + to left/under pack -.
Left/under + to main disconnect between the seats on floor.
Main disconnect to Main 400 amp fuse near contactor. 
Main 400 amp fuse to contactor - near controller. 
Contactor + to Controller +.

After listening to several good ideas, I added the second fuse.
All high voltage conductors run down the center of the car and are armored inside of 1/2" PVC pipe, separately with one to it's own tube. 

This isolates the packs, two and two. 

My old Jet Electrica had 1 fuse _After_ the contactor, before the controller. (And miles of cabling just hung under there flopping around. PLUS they had several splices in the middle of the long runs,bolted and shrinked. (I guess for production convenience?) OR they just had a bunch of small lengths to get rid of...LOL

Having said that, The Jet came equipped with #1 cables. I used the #1 cables for short runs, but anything over 1' long went to 1/O cable and got rid of the splices and their constant melting of the shrink sleeving. Every cable end was crimped, soldered and shrinked.

My 120volt/650 amp system will only be as good as the poorest terminal. At this point it is the small ones at the Tyco contactor and it is rated at 400 amps.....So, I can not see doing 4/o cabling and plan on 1/o unless I get some feedback.

Thanks as always, MIz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today, I got pics of the transmission pump. 









*This is a MUCH later edit:* ALWAYS use a flow backcheck valve between the pump and transmission on the pressure side. The transmission pressure spikes hard when shifting and will bulge the plastic housing and eventually cause a leak....I am living proof...It will leave you stranded too...LOL


And a pic of the suction line from the pan to the pump











I don't have the high pressure side hooked up yet. I want to use a steel braided higher pressure line. 


The drivers side underfloor battery box is done and the right side one is 50%.

Miz


----------



## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Re: Progress, finally*

Hi.
Thanks for the progress info and great pictures. I find it all very informative and entertaining. However there is one detail which pops up in my mind: Do you really intend to have the motor/tranny adapter flange bolted rigidly to the car frame without any cushioning at all ? No fear of nasty vibrations being transmitted to the body ?
Wish I could send you some of the cold air we have so much of here in Iceland.
Greetings

Agust


----------



## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Progress, finally*



Agust Sigurdsson said:


> Hi.
> Thanks for the progress info and great pictures. I find it all very informative and entertaining. However there is one detail which pops up in my mind: Do you really intend to have the motor/tranny adapter flange bolted rigidly to the car frame without any cushioning at all ? No fear of nasty vibrations being transmitted to the body ?
> Wish I could send you some of the cold air we have so much of here in Iceland.
> Greetings
> ...


If you look through the pictures of his build you can see on page one that there are urethane transmission mounts and on page two shows the front urethane mounts.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sig: I have a pivot type mounting system that works along with the old Ford Model A frame type. These frames twist back and forth constantly and need more ability to compensate at the ends while being almost solid at the center, the way Henry Ford designed them. Originally they had a semi-solid mount at the bell housing too.

My end mounts have " doughnut" style isolators at the transmission and the front motor mount frame pads. It might not be very visible in my pics.

This type of car is not very quiet at all and I do not expect to be bothered much because it is like being on a motorcycle, noisy, windy and bumpy. In the end if there are any bad vibes, I can easily insert rubber at the bell/adapter mounts as you suggest.

*1 year later edit:* No apparent transmission of motor noise through the solid center mount. Although the car has a screaming noise when driven by at 50 MPH that sounds like a jet engine.

I will gladly pay UPS shipping for all the north air you have spare....

Mix


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Things I have learned after 300+ gear sets experience.

when using a Ford 8.8 axle, the 6.14 gear set will not clear the rear cover. The tips of the teeth on the giant ring gear drag and require careful dimpling...or buy a $400 aluminum cover.....

Also, after a 4.30 ratio, they all require a "notched" center pin. Trust me....lol
If you want to make your own pin, grind one side of the pin 90degrees off the retainer bolt hole. Do not grind your flat side where the hole is.....that side axle will just push in and the "c"clip will fall out into the diff.....(sigh)

Set your pinion depth .002 deeper than recommended (the pinion crawls forward under sudden torque applications), make sure your pinion rotating torque is stiff enough, not spin freely (they all get looser with break in, dont start loose), and lastly set the back lash closer to the .013" max. Rather than the .009 min. For good oiling.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Could you just shave down the teeth on the ring gear to clear the cover, without getting into the gear contact area?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, It looked as though if I ground off the extreme outside corners of the teeth, it would clear,( but I chose to just dimple the cover like this)...









This is a patient 20 minutes of heating small spots and using easy, overlapping taps of an 16 Oz. ball-peen hammer, Followed by a glass beading after it cooled.
And this:









I let it cool gradually and it didnt seem to warp. SO, when I get a chance, I'll button it up finally.

Miz


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

wow that looks nice. you have a lot of patients.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

He's a real metal doctor


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Newly scored today:*

Looky what I found today. I got them for less than $10.00









A Hubbell, 4 prong, 250volt, 50Amp twist lock. I can make a nice charging set up with this. 

I am using a wall mounted dual charger (not on car), 30 Amp high and 15 Amp low voltage circuits. The "X" & "Y" terminals for high voltage, the center (housing grounded) for 12VDC GND and the remaining for the 12VDC Pos.

They fit very tightly too, a good thing. I just need to connect to car, THEN turn on charger power. (NEVER unplug from car when charger is on....)

I think I would put the left one on the car (it is hot all the time) that way people are safer around it than if I used the male end.....

Miz


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Some slow progress...*

Heh, Isnt all progress slow when you want it to just fly...?

Today, I was able to finish the rear axle and fill it with synthetic lube. 








NOTE: On these unitized axles where the axle tubes are pressed into the cast center section, they eventually start to leak and go "toe-in" under harsh treatment. I learned long ago to check toe setting by mounting two empty wheels and measuring. Then correcting the toe. On a short car, I use about 1/8" toe in, on a long car I use 1/8" toe out. ALSO set the camber, Set all to 1/2 Degree + camber. Then WELD the tubes to the housing solid-both sides.
AS in the picture if you look closely.

The car is taking shape. 








Front and rear battery racks, below the floor battery boxes.

I need to complete the right under box then The wiring begins (goody/goody).
Not really, I enjoy wiring. It has a logic all it's own. It is like playing solitary and you can not cheat. 

Then pivoting seat mounts, for battery access. The windshield and by then... batteries. (I hope by then someone dies and leaves me enough money)...

Miz


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

You know that you can get a chrome faucet hole cover to put in the open hole of your instrument panel.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, but I am hoping to find a gauge to go there, but that might be handy elsewhere.....(You might put this in the mechanics tricks thread too.)

I always browse the plumbing aisle, they have some off beat but cool stuff there.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Sunday....*

"Life is what happens when you are busy making plans." J.Lenon

Life intervened Sunday and I spent my day working doing chores. (or else....)

My work list : 1-finish the right battery box. 2-do the 12VDC wiring. 3-Do the controller/motor control wiring. (It is 80% done anyways. Just needs locating and mounting the small components.)

This is only my 3rd EV build/rebuild. My experience is only with 1/0 cabling. I have not had a system that draws over 400AMPS or was considered any where near "high" performance..

My plan is to do all the 12" and smaller cables in 1/0, the medium sized cables 12-36" in 2/0 and all over that in 4/0.


Question: with an AC50 and 120VDC system, what would _YOUR_ choice of battery cable size? ...(My longest wire is only 44"). 

TY-Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With my AC31 I used 2/0. My longest run is around 2.5 ft.


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Sunday....*



mizlplix said:


> "Life is what happens when you are busy making plans." J.Lenon
> 
> Life intervened Sunday and I spent my day working doing chores.
> 
> ...


 
2/0 is pretty much standard. You would not want to increase size later if using cable that was getting hot due to a small size. better to be safe.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

*Re: Sunday....*



mizlplix said:


> Question: with an AC50 and 120VDC system, what would _YOUR_ choice of battery cable size? ...(My longest wire is only 44").


Hi Miz,

Here is a recommendation I made a while ago. 



major said:


> Hi alt,
> 
> Cable size questions come up often. Maybe there is (or should be) something in the wiki. A lot of guys go too heavy in my opinion. You should size your cable to the average current for the circuit. If you have very long cable runs or if the cable is in an air tight conduit, you should go one gauge larger.
> 
> ...


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Cable sizing...Continued.*

OK, I respect the advice I just got. It sounds very reasonable, but I have one caveat....

Assuming you sized the cable large enough (diameter wise) for the length and current it carrys, You are still connecting almost the same ends on EVERY sized cable. The only difference is the bolt size for attachment.

On my First car, A 1981 Jet Electrica, they just bolted together a bunch of short lengths of #1 cabling and made the long ones. It looks like a production thing where one guy is working at the rear and does out-of-the-rear-box forward, the next guy does under the car, the last guy just set in the motor and bolted up the short motor lead to the stuff already under the car. OK, they all have shrink sleeving over the bolted together connections. 

When I drove the car, I could smell hot plastic and YES, the shrink sleeving on every connection was melted at some time. 

SO, I recabled the whole car. I left the short #1 battery jumpers alone, (they didnt seem to get hot). I replaced both long runs with One-piece 1/0 cables.(getting rid of the splices) *I sweated and crimped all fittings.*

End of trouble, end of smell and they only got kinda hot. (Only at the bolted ends.)

Once, long ago, I was a welding crew foreman on high/rise buildings. Our welding skids had 8--600 amp (output) DC power units on them. We used 4/0 cabling and the connectors were double set screwed (for ez field repair) to the cabling. They used a male/female socket with a tapered interface and twist lock. Everything was happy, but let just 1 set screw get loose...lets say that they were easy to find.


My point is that no matter what size/capacity cable you use, it still winds up with that same old high resistance bolted connection. It handles a #1 cable OK, but it gets very hot when using a 2/0 cable at capacity. (and I cant think of anything better)

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not sure I follow. If you are running 2/0 at full capacity you're above the capacity of #1 cable.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

[What I was trying to say]
In my car, the 2/0 cable was limited by the ends, which ran hot, limiting it's capability. They ran the length of the car.

For their size, the #1 was more efficient because the ends stayed cooler and they were very short(10"). 

All I could measure was the cable and cable ends temperatures. The meter claimed an honest 400 amps under acceleration. The short #1 cable ends were not hot and the ends of the 2/0 were. They limited the 2/0 to less...how less I cant guess.

The whole point of my diatribe (LOL) was that we routinely use almost the same type ends on all cables irregardless to their sizes and diameters. The incredibly resistive crimp-on antique that has been around for 100+ years.

So, in reality, my traction circuit was only as good as the most resistive point. Which would seem to be the hot ends of the 2/0 traction cables 

I'm not an electrical engineer, (forgive me if I'm not too clear at times) but I do have a lifetime of repairing crispy circuits. They give a good practical insight to what did not work.

I learn every day. Lately it has been from this forum. Miz


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I second the wire sizes suggested by Major. I too use 1/0 for the battery wiring and 2/0 for the motor loop. Cars that run very high voltage may be able to run smaller cables on the battery loop. Race cars builders should consider running larger cables. 

wires resistance per 1000 feet:
4/0 cable = 0.04901 ohms
2/0 cable = 0.07793 ohms
1/0 cable = 0.09827 ohms
#1 cable = 0.1239 ohms


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The whole point of my diatribe (LOL) was that we routinely use almost the same type ends on all cables irregardless to their sizes and diameters. The incredibly resistive crimp-on antique that has been around for 100+ years.


Hi Miz,

And I am sorry if you don't know me and that I would not recommend cable of any size be used without the proper lugs, terminations, procedures and tools. For me it is a given. Do it the right way. And when done the right way, the lugs are fully capable of the full ampacity of the cable. You don't hammer on a #1 lug to the end of a 2/0 cable......period. And a proper 2/0 lug will take everything a 2/0 cable can give it when it is properly crimped and securely fastened to the equipment. In fact many devices such as contactors depend on the lug and cable for heat sinking. If you don't have the tools or skills to do it, take it to someone who can.

Regards,

major


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

No problem..I do have a good crimper, both the hammer type and the big bolt cutter type. I also routinely sweat the connection as well as shrink sleeve it after.

What I have found is the use of a 5/16" diameter bolt on most everything from contactors to controllers. I even see supposed 400 amp fuses use a 1/4 " stud.

I guess they are depending on the surface contact area to conduct the current as well as the heat. 

As I stated somewhere above, I was a career construction foreman and dealt daily with 600 Amp DC equipment. I guess I am spoiled by them because they all had extremely heavy duty connections as compared to what I see in most EV pictures. 

Thanks, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The bolt should not be the conducting path, it should be the mating surfaces. As long as the bolt is large enough to keep the connection tight I'd think a smaller bolt, and therefore smaller hole in the lug, would give a larger contact surface area. Your experience with larger lugs heating up more than smaller ones is unusual, is it possible the holes were oversized, giving less contact area?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The bolted connections in my example were supplied and built by Jet Industries. They had 3/8" bolts. Which might explain the heating. They were dark in color, but not corroded. If "they knew what they were doing" and the ends were capable of carrying the same load as the cable, why did they get hot?

I don't agree with their construction method of 3 pieces of cable bolted together with a total of 6 crimped ends.

A thought occurred to me that maybe heat sink paste might help in these cases.

Even component makers are concerned. With my Tyco contactor, the paper stated to " clean everything. Put the cable on the stud first. Then add a copper strap To heat sink before the washer and nut. "If operating near the maximum rating frequently."

Now that I think about it...I think you are correct. The large bolts were the problem, limiting the contact area. 

As always, Ty to you and Major for giving me something to think about. Miz


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The bolted connections in my example were supplied and built by Jet Industries. They had 3/8" bolts. Which might explain the heating. They were dark in color, but not corroded. If "they knew what they were doing" and the ends were capable of carrying the same load as the cable, why did they get hot?
> 
> I don't agree with their construction method of 3 pieces of cable bolted together with a total of 6 crimped ends.


Hi Miz,

Jet Ind operated for a few years back around 1980. Did you buy your EV direct from them? A good chance someone else cobbled up the wiring before you got it. I agree----6 crimped lugs in a single cable run sucks  No good reason and should never have been that way. I actually paid a visit to Jet. Nice guys and made nice vehicles. Actually about the best available at that time. I doubt they used short ends to cable your EV, but who knows.



> A thought occurred to me that maybe heat sink paste might help in these cases.


Heat sink paste  I don't think so. Not conductive AFAIK. They do make other "grease" products for electrical connections. Except for aluminum and lead battery terminals, I don't like the stuff. Just clean both surfaces, tighten properly and use a boot to keep contamination off of it.

Regards,

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have restored two Electricas in the past five years. They both had the same pieced cables. I can only guess it was for production ease.(?)

No, neither one was bought new by me.

They did differ a little in other areas. One had power brakes, one had the controller in front, the other in back in the left rear quarter panel. One even had a watt-hour meter in the left rear quarter panel readable from the rear compartment.

One was slow as a slug.(it did have commutator scratching)

The other was much quicker. I am thinking that was the battery difference.


Yes, I can see That they were nice little cars for what they were.

Miz


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## bruceme (Dec 10, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I dont want this thread to be boring


HA! I'm drooling


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

bruceme said:


> HA! I'm drooling


Me toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Parts*

I just scored two nice 400Amp-250 Volt fuses off the Bay for $3.00 Ea....

And a new Tycho 500Amp/24VDC contactor for $60

And some 4/0 Copper lugs for .98/Ea

It is as addicting as Gambling. But I have good will power. 

(does anyone want to buy a used 1949 Studebaker rear bumper....cheap?)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Today:*

I vow to finish the last battery box today if it kills me....LOL

It has gone on too long. Other things were more fun to do so I keep putting it off.

Does everyone have this problem, or is it just me?



State of the project summary: 

Powertrane is done, motor/adapter/trans/driveshaft/rear axle. 

Hard linkages are done, shifter/hydraulic disconnect. 

Transmission charge pump, mounted and done. (except wiring)

Trans dip stick and tube is done.(a custom 3 piece unit)

Rear axle gear set done. (6.14:1)

Battery boxes, 3 of 4 are done. 

*Next: *The last battery box is 50%.

*Then: *The low voltage car wiring. (Lights, instruments, 12VDC control circuits for the 3 water cooling pumps, trans charge pump, Radiator cooling fan, Controller high voltage relay).

*And:* The water cooling circuits. 1 for the motor, 1 for the transmission and 1 for the controller. (I have 3 ways to go on it- a plate from the EVTV supplier a 4 pass design, a plate from Crusin a 2 pass design, or my own a Foundry poured design [yes, I have a small foundry] using multiple feet of copper tubing in an aluminum matrix) I am still thinking on it. I probably will delay that decision until the car is drive-able.

*Last: *The high voltage wiring and cabling. (90% of this is done by HPGC and included with the nice harness).

Well, it is 5:30AM here, I'd better get out and going. I hope everyone has a good day, Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Today:*



mizlplix said:


> It has gone on too long. Other things were more fun to do so I keep putting it off.
> 
> Does everyone have this problem, or is it just me?


Yes, unfortunately.


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Today:*



mizlplix said:


> I vow to finish the last battery box today if it kills me....LOL
> 
> It has gone on too long. Other things were more fun to do so I keep putting it off.
> 
> ...


To answer your question, yes, it gets boring doing the battery boxes when more exciting things are yet to be done. It appears you are doing a good job which will be rewarding when you finish. To many dont spend the time to do it right in the first place resulting in something that should be seen by anyone except the owner. Next question regarding the heatsink/water cooler, if you decide to forge your own, make the overall dimensions larger than the controller and incorporate 4 holes for mounting the controller on the heatsink to the car. I have used the single, double and 4 pass type and dont see much difference The single pass would make it much easier to connect and less connections to be concerned about regarding leakage.


----------



## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: Parts*



mizlplix said:


> I just scored two nice 400Amp-250 Volt fuses off the Bay for $3.00 Ea....
> 
> And a new Tycho 500Amp/24VDC contactor for $60
> 
> ...


Word of caution regarding the contactor, make sure it is truly a 24v and not the 9-24v coil being sold on ebay with the model number Tyco EV200AAANA. Those have a 12v coil and will NOT work and could cause problems when using the Curtis controller.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

No worries, I still have the original one I bought with the motor. : )

The other one is for another use.

BTW: I should be able to OHM out the two units through the coil circuit and compare readings. They will be close or way different.

THX for the warning, Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*YeeHaw!*

Battery boxes are finally done. 








There are holes in the forward end and are for screen covered vents.
Some holes in the rear are for the Marine bullet fans for positive box venting.

Now I can go on to the next step (Drum Roll).........Wiring. 

The 12VDC wiring is partly done from before, so I will finish that first, 
followed by the Controller stuff which is ez due to the nice wiring harness included with the motor.

QUESTION: Should I go 120VDC pack, the Curtis 840 will be kinda useless wont it? Or will everything work except for the pack "fuel" gage?

QUESTION: What are other builders using when going 120VDC? 

In my world, I would put a serial Bluetooth transmitter on the controller cable for the 840 gauge and use my Droid X phone on a dash mount to monitor in real time. Split screen (pack percent-Controller temp, motor temp, Amp draw)
, With an old time Sun Super Tach on the steering column for RPMs.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: YeeHaw!*



mizlplix said:


> QUESTION: Should I go 120VDC pack, the Curtis 840 will be kinda useless wont it? Or will everything work except for the pack "fuel" gage?


Why would the 840 be useless? It just reads what the controller puts out. If your pack is within the parameters of the controller then all is well. If you mean a 120V nominal pack of lead then fresh off the charger, or during regen, you might over volt the controller and it will shut down, somewhere above 130V.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It is something i read. You know how internet information is always correct. It said that the gauge read percentage based on 96 volts. At 120 volts it wouldnt be accurate. 

I have never had mine hooked up to tell. Another deal was it is too small to read when driving. And it was not backlit. On the cart forum i think. I cant verify.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It shows actual pack voltage, I can read it while driving, and it is backlit. Other than that.....


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Cool. Thats just one more thing off my mind. It will let me work later on a serial cable/ttl /moldex interface for my Droid X......

Just dock the Droid while driving and use as a gauge. (It is LOTS larger than the 840 readout. All the elements exist to do this, just the details to work out.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

This week at work,,,(in my spare time of coarse)

I am building a liquid to liquid heat exchanger to cool my transmission.
Here is the start. 10" of 2" thinwall conduit and the copper inner coil.










More later. Miz


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I like the transmission fluid pump idea. Seems like a really simple and easy way to run an automatic. 

Does it eliminate the need to run a circle track direct drive valve body? 

Where does the high pressure line go into the transmission?

How much current does that pump draw?

Thanks for the good build thread.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It draws 7 amps.
It hooks into the forward servo cover test port. 

No it can be used on a stock transmission too. 3 or 4 speed auto shift and torque converter.

I have some other ways to hook this thing togather if this proves to not work well.

Ill keep you posted. To me, the manual/auto trans is the exciting part of the build.

Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Well I hope it works. I was thinking of trying something similar but using the drive sleeve from a torque converter that engages the pump and belt driving it with a small dc motor. Basically separating the input shaft from the pump drive so the pump could spin when the main motor didn't That would be way more complicated/impossible than your electric pump.

Think its possible the accumulator might hold enough pressure to keep the forward gear engaged while sitting? That would be cool if it turns out you didn't even need the electric pump.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Others are driving this type set-up currently. They report that the normal internal leakages allow the circuit to drain in 10-12 seconds after stopping.

I am not sure if a powerglide has an accumulator, at least I dont see one. Like a turbo350, has one where my forward apply servo is. It has a spring operated piston.

I do have a back-up plan to put an external accumulator in the apply circuit. Grainger sells a small hydraulic cylinder for $28 that would make a nice one. It has a bore of 2" and a stroke of 5", so it would have minimum impact on the fluid level in the trans.

You simply turn on the key, let it fill then set the trans fluid level. The pump keeps it topped off and the level stays the same except when you are stopped, but that is constantly being replenished by the pump, so no overfill worrys.

But, like I said earlier....my theory.

Miz


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My earlier posted 400 Amp fuse did not inspire confidence.
So, I bought two of these beauties off of the Bay.









Real 400Amp fuses. 1 for between packs and 1 for after the disconnect switch and before the contactor.

I just need to go shopping for two plastic rectangular dishes to serve as covers to these....

Oh, OOPS....My first attempt at making an oil cooler has ended in an embarrassing defeat. It had an internal leak. So I would have had trans fluid in the coolant...not good.

But I have started a new one, it is increased from 9" to 14" long, as I have the room. The coil is wound, the tube cut, coil inserted and tack brased in.
Tomorrow will have the ends on and it pressure tested, hopefully better than the last one. 

One Caveat: This one is much nicer. I guess experience counts for something. LOL

Miz


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> My earlier posted 400 Amp fuse did not inspire confidence.
> 
> Real 400Amp fuses. 1 for between packs and 1 for after the disconnect switch and before the contactor.


You could have used these:

http://www.ferrazshawmutsales.com/a50qs_series.htm 

http://www.ferrazshawmutsales.com/stud_type_fuse_blocks_p266_series.htm 

Safety equipment off eBay may not save you money in the long run, but WTH, it's your project


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Major:
> 
> You could have used these:
> 
> ...


True:You must not compromise on some things.

But they came from a major supplier and had an inspection sheet that included ohm, integrity and load testing. The actual ability to perform their intended function is an act of faith (like new ones).

They are rated 220VAC/DC or less. You DO have to watch using AC fuses for DC current and vice versa. (I would have liked some about 1/2 their size, but it was not worth paying up to 4 times what these cost.)

The dielectric ceramic isolators are from a large 100HP air compressor motor controller. They mounted fusable links and ran at 220VAC.

So, I am confident that these will not disappoint me. (not like the other one pictured above.)

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How much continuous current are you expecting to draw from your pack?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

At this point it is just a guess based on two other cars. About 350-400 for a long acceleration. 2-3 Minutes...freeway ramps.etc

This car is 1000 # lighter than.them and a little over 3 times the rated power. So I am guessing in the dark here. The actual sag might be my limiting factor.


Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Today's progress*

The new bell housing bottom chrome cover turned out to not fit very well. Just because something is new does not mean it is well made I guess. Tin snips, drill and rubber hammer were necessary, but it plugs the hole.

The second attempt at making a liquid to liquid heat exchanger turned out well.









14 inches long and 2 inches in diameter with 12' of 1/4" copper tubing coiled inside. It mounted to the right frame rail just like it was made to go there.


I also mounted various other small components as well. There seems to be a lot of those....

Btw: walmart sells some ice cube storage bins that make nice covers for components. They take paint well too.($1.78 ea.)

Miz


----------



## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

*Re: Today's progress*

That is looking very nice.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words, Dawid:.

The body is 14" of 2" thinwall electrical conduit.
The 1/4" copper tubing coil was wound on a mandrill using a lathe.
The end caps are 2-1/16" freeze plugs.
It was silver/brased together.
Air pressure tested at 125Psi in a water tank.
Glass-bead blasted.
Cold galvanize coated and finished in "Hunter Green from Home Depot, 
(The color of the car).

This is one of the reasons the car has taken me 5+ years to construct so-far. : ) I enjoy making a lot of the components. Especially where no reasonable alternative exists. In this case I could have gone air cooled or had a coil put in the radiator tank, but this won out.

I retained the ICE radiator. It is New, light weight and holds the front of the body....I would have had to make some sort of frame to replace it anyways.
I also have 3 water cooled circuits, Motor, Controller and transmission. It just seemed natural to retain it. I only need to run 2 gallons of coolant and not completely fill it. The fan is a little overkill, but it was already there.....

Thx, Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Will the radiator cool all three items in a series loop or does it branch out 3 ways from an adapter like the one you have on the upper hose? Seems like it could get tricky deciding what should get the water in what order.

Aside from keeping the radiator because its structural, its probably lighter
than 3 separate heat exchangers when you take into consideration all of the plumbing and mounting hardware. 

I think on that car the radiator contributes to the overall look and style. I can't imagine what else would look good up there.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The "plan" calls for 3 separate circuits in parallel. Each with it's own pump and flow control valve. Yes, there is a similar manifold for the lower hose position.

That way I can use an infrared thermometer gun to check the return to tank coolant temps. And adjust accordingly.

The big radiator mounted fan relay is wired to a brake signal and only runs during stops, having moving air the rest of the time.

For pumps I am using 3 separate common inline electric fuel pumps. They have stainless steel internals and are built to pump a volatile medium and only draw 3 amps.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The big radiator mounted fan relay is wired to a brake signal and only runs during stops, having moving air the rest of the time.


Why not just use a thermostat? That way it only runs when it actually needs to, which may be never, or might be when going up a steep hill at low speed.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Laziness, the wiring harness to the front is already made and in place. I needed 1 more wire to go to the sensor in the radiator. So, until I need to unwrap it to put in several more wires, I settled on a brake signal.

It would be nice to put sensors on all three water circuits to control the pumps too. It would make my 12volt battery last longer.

I have a sensor in the transmission pan, one in the radiator and I guess I could use a temperature signal from the controller somehow. One of the switch functions maybe.



Miz


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Why not just use a thermostat? That way it only runs when it actually needs to, which may be never, or might be when going up a steep hill at low speed.


What temperature would you have it go on? I suspect it would need to be quite different from the one an ICE car would normally use (those things run hot!)

corbin


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Corbin: my radiator has to cool three things. Motor, transmission and the controller. Each has it's own pump and circuit, but pulls from and dumps to the same coolant source, the radiator.

The sensor setting would be reliant on two things.......maximum temp of the units and time it took to drop the coolant to an acceptable level. 

I don't want my system to get over 140 degrees F. That is the maximum operating temperature of the transmission charge pump. So, I guess I would use a 130-on, 100-off sensor.

The transmission has no converter and on my oval track car ran 140-160 degrees. This car will be driven somewhat easier, so this range might be do-able.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd probably use something around 120-130F or so.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Very Cool Car! Look great.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Everyone...Thanks for the kind words and your experience. 

This weekend is going to be great. I have a TON of little things to do. Things that I have the parts to do ....Hooyah!

I moved my main battery disconnect from between the seats on the floor, to the firewall with the fuse/contactor and controller. It has a cool shaft and handle to locate the remote lever just right of the steering column under the dash board. (Pics to follow)

I added a second disconnect in the rear behind the passenger seat to divide the batteries in two halves. (along With a second fuse)

My motor fresh air intake system is ready to install also. Complete with a velocity stack style air cleaner and booster fan (in the duct).


Plus the all important 12VDC wiring. I have reconfigured the fuse block from original. It was 1/2 full time powered and 1/2 key switched. Now it is all full time with relays controlling everything. 

I have started fabbing the windshield frame. (An Auburn type "Vee" style)

Miz


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## bruceme (Dec 10, 2008)

What's the liquid/liquid heat exchanger for?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The powerglide. There was no loop in the radiator. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hmmmmmm...Saturday didnt go very well. You know one of those days where everything has left handed threads?

The battery disconnect got finished after a fashion. I had to move it to a place 6" higher than I had planned. It will be OK though. Instead of being under the dash, it sticks right out of the dash itself. When in the off position, it almost covers the key switch, which is ok.

That moved the fuse and contactor, but not greatly. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, the promised pics:The 600amp switch converted to remote operation.










The whole thing:
Installed, it inserts from the front through the fire wall and goes through the aluminum dash board,(shown in the off position).









What it looks like in front of the firewall.









The bus straps are 3/16" X 1" copper bar stock. There is a nice cover that encloses the front of the switch as well as side pieces, which will need notched. The black shaft material is just sch 40 PVc for safety in case a full load disconnect is ever required.

I also drilled all of the access holes for the battery conductors, Mostly 2/0 as recommended. The longest will be about 38" in length.

I was able to lay in the supplied controller harness. It only required minor alterations to fit nicely.

I also installed the 12VDC battery, 60amp supply fuse, and 8Ga. wire up to the fuse panel under the dash. The battery 12VDC neg. side goes to the shut off switch mounted between the seats and has a frame grounding stud as well as an 8Ga. wire running to the grounding terminal strip under the dash.

All is ready for the final systems wiring.

BTW: AL was correct. The contactor I bought off of EBAY at $62 was marketed as 6-48 VDC. It arrived marked 12-24 VDC. When I ohmed out the coil, it was in the range I normally see for 13 volt coils....... SO, I will use the one supplied in my kit, although this new one was more compact and marketed as 500Amps. It had a small circuit board called an "economiser". It was supposed to cut back the current draw and "latch" the contactor drawing only .7 amps. I am not wanting to operate it at 24 VDC as the coil and board seem to be a 12volt model.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> BTW: AL was correct. The contactor I bought off of EBAY at $62 was marketed as 6-48 VDC. It arrived marked 12-24 VDC. When I ohmed out the coil, it was in the range I normally see for 13 volt coils....... SO, I will use the one supplied in my kit, although this new one was more compact and marketed as 500Amps. It had a small circuit board called an "economiser". It was supposed to cut back the current draw and "latch" the contactor drawing only .7 amps. I am not wanting to operate it at 24 VDC as the coil and board seem to be a 12volt model.
> 
> Miz


Hi Miz,

You do not want to use the Kilovac contactor with the economizer circuit with the Curtis. Use the one supplied with the kit. The Curtis is programmed for the correct pull-in and hold voltage for that one.

Looks nice, but IMHO, an overkill on the fuse holder and E-disconnect. But bigger is better for some 

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can verify that contactor won't work with the Curtis, with or without the economizer. I tried it both ways when the original one was buzzing too much.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I can verify that contactor won't work with the Curtis, with or without the economizer. I tried it both ways when the original one was buzzing too much.


Hi JR,

Odd. I have one working after I removed the economizer with a 1238. But it would not work in any way with a Sevcon SepEx. The big Albright did. Darn fussy things 

And sorry, forgot about your pm I'll get to it tomorrow.

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As i have the original contactor, i am not worried. 

But if i was stuck with it, i would try using a small 24vdc coil relay, signaled by the controller to trigger 12vdc for the contactor coil. (Kind of a bandaid type work-around). 

It was such a nice compact unit i couldnt resist buying one. Afterwards i learned of the issues with it. 

Has anyone used one on 12volts only?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you all would excuse me, I will not be posting anything for a week or two.

I am just doing the wiring, but it includes the entire car, lights-accessories-everything. Not much to report.

I always am reminded of the Golden Rule of things electrical: "If you let the smoke out of the wire, you can not put it back in and need to start all over".

I have always considered myself good at wiring in general, but several years ago, I worked in a fleet of 200 School Buses. They have an incredible amount of wiring and involve a good deal of current. It taught me patience. 

Later, Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

mizlplix;256512 I have always considered myself good at wiring in general said:


> And the wiring diagram never matches what you have in front of you. Good luck


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just a short update: I have been doing the wiring, mounting the coolant pumps for the motor, transmission and controller systems. Making a tip-up seat mount so I had easy battery access. fabbing the top clamping frames for the front and rear battery packs. 

Nothing tremendous to report. I am shooting for a December roll-out. 

I have some small things left to do. Like, The "Vee" windshield frame, mounting and finishing the grille shell and hood top cover. I guess the final item would be the paint. I might drive the car in red oxide primer first though. In the Great American Hotrod tradition...LOL

I am planning a short video of the first drive. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Greetings to all: I promise, I have been working on the car. Just not much to report or to take pics of....until now.

The subject of a cold plate has comes up from time to time. There are about 3-4 different versions that are in use. 

1. One version has two halves with milled channels and is bolted together.
I am leery of the way the hose barbs are screwed into the plate in the crack between them. Pipe fittings are a tapered thread and you are wedging the plates apart possibly causing a leak later.

2. The other versions are OK if you have room for them, but I am in a tight spot and my plate can not be more than 1" thick at most. 

Then I met Ivan, a fellow EV'er. He is a very talented guy with a thirst to build and create. His past projects include an electric bike, a diesel Gen Set, a CNC table and an airplane. He can be contacted at [email protected] or go to his web site http://ivanbennett.com

He has designed a really simple, effective cold plate that fits into a small space but yet is arguably the most efficient I've seen. He was kind enough to bring me a unit to try on my Roadster build.

OK, This might generate some hate mail, but here it goes.....

Heat conduction through metal takes time. The thicker the metal, the longer it takes. The best design would have been if Curtis had just made passages in the controller, which would have been the best and done us all a great favor. Some motor and controller makers do it all the time. The single down side of this approach is corrosion over time.

Lets get real. An automotive ICE requires 240+ degrees and thousands of heat/cold cycles to see the corrosion we are used to in our cooling systems. Even then, Aluminum radiator cores are .040-.060 thick and take years to corrode through. 

Our usage is a lot different. Without a converter, an automatic transmission gets about 140 Degrees F. This leaves the controller as the hottest thing in the system. My system has 2-3 gallons of fluid capacity. It uses a 20 pound heat exchanger and three dedicated pumps. It sounds like overkill and probably is, but the radiator holds the nose of the car and to remove it and build a tubing frame, just to replace it with another heat exchanger was expensive and just wrong somehow.

My point is that I am never going to see over maybe 140 Degrees F, ever. Given the proper fluid, I am looking at a lifetime of use with minimal corrosion.

This cold plate uses an open face and runs the fluid directly against the 1" thick aluminum controller base. .........<he ducks>......










It is 5/8" thick with a 1/2" deep fluid chamber. My inlet is on the bottom and outlet is on the top/right corner to eliminate any trapped air. I have a solid 3/8" thick aluminum sub-base bolted to my firewall. This just sandwiches between the controller and the sub base using anerobic sealer and heat sink paste on the sub plate for a little extra heat conduction....(ok more overkill)

I will be installing it today. Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very interesting. I wonder if machining channels that provided a definite flow path would have been better than the "bathtub" design. I don't know if you might have a stream of coolant just flowing from the inlet to the outlet with pockets of stagnation on the sides, creating hot spots. Probably not, just over thinking out loud.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Very interesting. I wonder if machining channels that provided a definite flow path would have been better than the "bathtub" design. I don't know if you might have a stream of coolant just flowing from the inlet to the outlet with pockets of stagnation on the sides, creating hot spots. Probably not, just over thinking out loud.


Actually, I had the same thought but got pulled away for some business stuff before I could reply. I would have done channels and probably a few inlets/a few outlets...

Has anyone ever considered bending tubing and casting it in an aluminum plate?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Both good points. 

In my world...<heh>...it is based on the thermo-siphon principal like the very early auto and tractor cooling systems. The warmer liquid will always rise. The cooler liquid will fill the bottom like filling a swimming pool, pushing the warmer-top liquid out the top/right outlet. That is supposing the inlet volume is slow to medium...

But, it would be easy to insert a bent copper strip to create channels. If I only knew where the localized hot spots on the controller were. 

Todd: Funny you should mention that....










Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did you have to machine the bottom of the controller or is it flat enough to create a seal? I think I saw someone actually machine the base of the controller with passages and bolt a plate to it.
I was toying with the idea of just putting a coil of tubing between the controller base and my aluminum mounting plate and bolting them together. Maybe running the coil through a roller to flatten the tubing out some and increase contact area.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Both good points.
> 
> In my world...<heh>...it is based on the thermo-siphon principal like the very early auto and tractor cooling systems. The warmer liquid will always rise. The cooler liquid will fill the bottom like filling a swimming pool, pushing the warmer-top liquid out the top/right outlet. That is supposing the inlet volume is slow to medium...


I get that, in theory, but the top half of the tank would always be pretty warm. Since inlet volume has to be relatively slow, you can't really suck the hot fluid out fast enough. Maybe you can find out which side of the controller can tolerate the most heat?





mizlplix said:


> ...Todd: Funny you should mention that....
> Miz


Great minds right?  I wonder what an engineer would think about thermal conductivity between the two metals? If I happen to catch my partner with a spare moment, and remember this, I'll ask him. He's a materials science guy. Ideally aluminum tubing, cast in an aluminum plate would be awesome. What did you bend with? It's collapsing your tubing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you are going to do a casting, why not cast in the passages?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If you are going to do a casting, why not cast in the passages?


Of course I would go for a lost foam or wax casting with passages, but I was trying to look at it from the perspective of the average DIYer. One can make a tubing passage way like Miz did relatively easily, and even build a little charcoal furnace to melt some scrap aluminum. A casting place might not even charge much to pour a simple form. Get into lost foam/wax and/or investment casting and you've increased the complexity and cost beyond average DIY levels.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> In my world...<heh>...it is based on the thermo-siphon principal like the very early auto and tractor cooling systems. The warmer liquid will always rise. The cooler liquid will fill the bottom like filling a swimming pool, pushing the warmer-top liquid out the top/right outlet. That is supposing the inlet volume is slow to medium...


I'm using a thermo-siphon system to cool the Zilla in my beach buggy. I have the controller mounted so that the writing on the controller cover is upright. Behind the controller I have mounted a small plastic tank about 1 inch thick. A clear vinyl line runs from the top barb uphill as it turns and runs into a strait barb on the tank. The bottom line level. The total fluid volume is 12 fl oz. 

The only metal in the system is the controller and the coolant used in propylene glycol based computer coolant. Shedding heat is pretty slow but the water volume holds a lot more heat than air. It has eliminated controller heat issues. After a run the upper line is always noticeably warmer.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Lost wax or foam only apply to the making of a ceramic mould. The mould is baked and the media...foam or wax...melt out leaving the mould ready for the metal to be poured. When cool, the mould is usually broken up to extract the item. It is almost impossible to use for interior passages.

Passages must be of a medium capable of withstanding the molten metal heat in order to keep the passages open. Like green sand. Then you need cleanout ports to get the sand out after it cooled, ala engine blocks and so called freeze plugs. They are in fact sand cleanout ports.

Oops, I didnt mean to sound preachy, but I have a lot of casting exp.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Lost wax or foam only apply to the making of a ceramic mould. The mould is baked and the media...foam or wax...melt out leaving the mould ready for the metal to be poured. When cool, the mould is usually broken up to extract the item. It is almost impossible to use for interior passages.
> 
> Passages must be of a medium capable of withstanding the molten metal heat in order to keep the passages open. Like green sand. Then you need cleanout ports to get the sand out after it cooled, ala engine blocks and so called freeze plugs. They are in fact sand cleanout ports.
> 
> Oops, I didnt mean to sound preachy, but I have a lot of casting exp.


Not quite...

From this Wikipedia article & this one:
[qoute]Lost-foam casting was invented in 1964 by M.C. Flemmings. Public recognition of the benefits of LFC was made by General Motors in the mid 1980s when it announced its new car line, Saturn, would utilize LFC for production of all engine blocks, cylinder heads, crankshafts, differential carriers, and transmission cases.[/quote]

And, the first few links from Googling "lost foam casting internal passages":

http://www.fataaluminum.com/lost_foam.htm

http://www.sfsa.org/tutorials/eng_block/GMBlock_12.htm

http://www.glmmarine.com/ConversionKitArticle.html

I have a basic working knowledge of casting but there are some really serious casting individuals around the shop that have been discussing using this to make stuff - that's how I know what's possible. 

As I mentioned though, it's probably outside the grasp of the average DIYer...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> As i have the original contactor, i am not worried.
> 
> But if i was stuck with it, i would try using a small 24vdc coil relay, signaled by the controller to trigger 12vdc for the contactor coil. (Kind of a bandaid type work-around).
> 
> ...


I had to do this on my Gizmo. As Major said, that contactor won't work with the Sevcon SepEx controller. I installed a 24V coil relay controlled by the controller and the relay switches 12V to the contactor and it works just fine. Just a little kludgy.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Gizmo: I have an EV200 with the circuit board on it I got from Ebay. It is running on a neighbor's Jet Electrica. It is using 12VDC and is signaled by the pot switch. It works fine.....No problems in 4 months, driven every day on a 120 VDC pack/500 amp 1238 controller-Prestolite motor. We didnt feel good about letting it run from m the 24VDC from the controller.

Todd: I hear you. I have not used foam with sand. Most of my stuff was a vacuum foundry -investment-wax-Bronze/silver/gold doing small pieces. The tubing in the pic was bent with a wooden form by hand. The flattening was mild and at the time I thought it OK because radiator tubes are flattened to decrease heat transfer time in the liquid. (or so AFCO sez). I used copper because of the higher melt temp. The aluminum tubing would just disappear when exposed to that kind of heat soak.

JRP3: The bottom of the controller is like a mirror. Flat and real smooth-a machine finish. I could even run a copper plate between them if I was chicken, but I am confident it will be OK with Propylene Glycol coolant.

Proplyene Glycol is used in delicate instruments for lube and cooling duties. Computers, Etc. It is available at Vet suppliers for 21.00/gallon. OR RV stores in concentrate for 7.45/32Oz. mix to 50% with water. They are both food grade and used in hand lotions. It is good for +235F. to -40 F. Life span is recommended at 10 Years before changing if used with an anti-fungal additative.

I need 3 gallons total.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, I got time (at last) to work on the cold plate. I have got the plate and controller bolted together with Anaerobic gasket sealer between them. I used a fine 1/16" bead. This stuff is not like silicone in that it stays soft except where it is squashed between the plates, and then it becomes a hard acrylic plastic. It is the same stuff GM, Ford and Tremec use to seal their transmissions with. No paper or rubber gaskets at all....(NAPA)









The total thickness is 1-3/8" so I used 4-1/4" long bolts. I cut extra threads, far down the bolt and used jamb nuts to hold the plates compressed together to maintain the seal between them. The rest of the extra thread is for mounting through the firewall so it will never affect the tight seal.

Propylene Glycol is $17.00 / gallon at the local feed store. It is used to treat cows and horses for colic. Then I got an anti-fungal agent from an online computer supply for keeping things from growing in it. It is an excellent coolant/anti-freeze used in the computer industry for this exact purpose because of it's anti-corrosion properties. Life span is about 10 years if filtered properly.

Mean while simultaneous progress is being made on my Speedster "Vee" windshield. The frame is about 80% done. 

Next: I disassemble my clean air intake for the motor, to install the "flying magnets" for the tach sensor. 


Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Propylene glycol is also used to winterize RV and boat water systems, but I've never heard of having to add anti fungal to it. Maybe the RV and boat stuff already has it in it?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

When you buy the proper coolant mixture, the things are already added to prevent algae. I am buying the MUCH cheaper veterinary propylene glycol which is 99% pure.

The decision to go with propylene rather than regular automotive coolant is because my system uses two dissimilar metals. The copper aggravates the aluminum. Usually an all aluminum system is used thru-out. 

My transmission heat exchanger and motor coils are both copper where my cold plate and radiator are aluminum. I can not use water in my mixture. 

Propylene glycol is almost the perfect coolant. It has 99% of the heat carrying capabilities of water, but none of the corrosion traits. It does need an algaecide as it is an organic compound and a humectant food additive. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hey Todd: just reading your casting links. Interesting stuff. Wax and foam are used thesame except with foam, it eliminates one step, melting the wax out of the mold. That happens when it is poured.

It gives smoother finished items. But still requires a fine sand tobe packed into the internal passages, but without the binder, which makes cleanout veryeasy.

So simple, but accurate too.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Hey Todd: just reading your casting links. Interesting stuff....So simple, but accurate too.
> 
> Miz


Yup, it's pretty cool.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Happy Turkey Day everyone!

We are in Tucson at my oldest sons house, eating his food, drinking his...uh..mostly everything.

I have 5 days off. I pledge to do some serious damage to the car. 

The Vee windshield is proving to be a worthy task. I will post some pics tomorrow. 

Miz


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## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm working with Macomb Community College to get this replica 1927 Model T Roadster project rolling, they've already chosen to use a 5speed manual with the 40kw MES motor, it's a learning project so we won't be done for another semester or two, but should be fun. 
www.bev27.com


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JohnMogs said:


> I'm working with Macomb Community College to get this replica 1927 Model T Roadster project rolling, they've already chosen to use a 5speed manual with the 40kw MES motor, it's a learning project so we won't be done for another semester or two, but should be fun.
> www.bev27.com


Nice!  We're working with Ohio Department of Education to develop a kit car program for high schools (probably ICE at first though).


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

John: a T is a nice project. Your biggest challenge is hiding the batteries. I built my first T when i was in my 20's. A turtle shell type deck rather than a pickup box would hide lots more batteries....pm me if you need any help. Miz


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Cool, another Model T/Model A style build to watch. I've been watching Miz and Todds builds for inspiration and knowledge. I've also found a high school that's building an electric T-bucket. 

I should have all the parts together to have my T frame a roller by the end of this year! 

I like the idea of electric T's. While not aerodynamic, they are light and fairly cheap to build with all new parts. Besides they look cool, and there are so many different looks you can do with a T. No restoring old parts unless you choose to do so. Fun!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Welcome to the "Old Ford" club, Mike. These are a simple car to do. So many ways to go. New/old/high tech/caveman...

The biggest perk is that they can be extremely light weight......

The biggest bummer is that you suffer in bad weather.

Miz


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## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

Miz, do you have anything between the motor and the trans for flexing, or is it a rigid coupler?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, John:

On the first page of this thread, in the 6th picture down, it shows both the coupler {silver} and the direct drive adapter {Gold}.

I would class this as solid, but there are splines in the direct drive adapter where the tube slips into the flange. This might allow some very minor misalignment.

BUT, My adapter plate and coupler are made by CAN EV and they are almost too nice to paint or use. The adapter is twice the thickness of the GM bellhousing, so flex is not a worry. Randy sells very nice stuff. 

My direct drive adapter is made by TCI who make Powerglides that handle 1000 HP drag racing punishment. So, everything is top of the line.

I really dont know anyone that uses a cushioned coupler {Like the "Lovejoy" type} They are much too light duty for an AC50, which loads them in BOTH directions.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some people doing a clutchless manual retained the center of the clutch disk which has the springs to absorb some of the shock loads and some potential misalignment. I went full solid and just took the center spline pressed and welded into a taperlock hub.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Some people doing a clutchless manual retained the center of the clutch disk which has the springs to absorb some of the shock loads and some potential misalignment. I went full solid and just took the center spline pressed and welded into a taperlock hub.


 
Taperlock hubs are no longer used for couplers as they are not dependable. CANEV stopped using them a long time ago. Aluminum hubs are also not used anymore. Rigid clutchless works the best with no vibration or tranny seal damage.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If they aren't using a taperlock to clamp the hub onto the motor shaft what are they using? I haven't seen anyone report taperlock failures.
I''ve been using two taperlocks on my 6 wheeler belt drive and one on my clutchless manual Fiero, no problems so far.


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## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

I think taper lock hubs have more room for First-timer error, thus CANEV switched to a tight fit keyed hub with a set screw 90deg from key slot. Note these retain the use of the clutch.

I've used the CANEV adapter plates on 4 EVs and not had issues with them, Randy at CANEV does a good job!


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## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

I like the idea of using the clutch plate to absorb some misalignment, but agree it might not be necessary. I asked because of the lower half of the bell housing does not contact the adapter plate so I assume some flex might happen, but not more than the 1000hp track cars using the same contact points.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words Anoo. Can you post a picture of your car? It is OK to put it here on this thread if you want.

Guys: the taperlock hubs are generally good. Although I have seen them crack through the keyway And they are VERY dependent on shaft condition. If there is any rust/grime/imperfections, they will be axially out-of-round because of their short design {they only have 1 shaft diameter or so engagement to align them}.

Having said that....I would use one on a direct drive but not to hold a flywheel for a clutch type. 

While we are on the subject of clutchless....Back in the day before Lenco transmissions, we drag racers would remove every other tooth on the transmission blocker ring to make synchro ring engagement easier and assist our "full throttle", pedal to the floor, shifts. Anyone tried this with a clutchless manual EV?

While you were inside, you could even remove the gears you dont use and put in spacers. You could block the shift cams and rail to make it not go into those selector positions too.

Miz


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Thanks for the kind words Anoo. Can you post a picture of your car? It is OK to put it here on this thread if you want.
> 
> Guys: the taperlock hubs are generally good. Although I have seen them crack through the keyway And they are VERY dependent on shaft condition. If there is any rust/grime/imperfections, they will be axially out-of-round because of their short design {they only have 1 shaft diameter or so engagement to align them}.
> 
> ...


Miz, good suggestion on removing unneeded gears from the tranny. On my VW tranny, evrything except 3rd has been removed to cut down on tranny noise. Vw's transmit tranny noise through the gearshift rod which was also removed. Now I can listen to the Regen noise from the motor. Dont like noise in a EV.


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## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> While we are on the subject of clutchless....Back in the day before Lenco transmissions, we drag racers would remove every other tooth on the transmission blocker ring to make synchro ring engagement easier and assist our "full throttle", pedal to the floor, shifts. Anyone tried this with a clutchless manual EV?
> 
> Miz


Good idea, I know a lot of guys who went clutchless but are somewhat frustrated with the time it takes to up shift as the motor slows while in neutral. Hopefully someone has done this and can post instructions for their application. I've seen saturn and s10 conversions that could benefit.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

An AC with regen slows immediately, and if you don't shift it really fast and get it right you get a grinder  However if you do get it right it shifts faster than with a clutch. Not sure about durability in the long run but most of the time I just leave it in second and never shift.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh, and downshifting is really difficult.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

How are the regen capable controllers set up? Could a snap switch on the shifter be used to cancel the regen during shifts and just let the motor spin to help the synchros? Maybe even trigger it with a clutch pedal since clutch during shift is a natural habit for most drivers. 

Some of the really high end cars have force sensors that begin synching gears when you put tension on the shifter. I know there aren't Ferrari shifters laying around in the salvage yard but EV builders have engineered way more impressive stuff that that. Seems like somebody could copy that. 

Probably still wouldn't feel as cool as Miz's 1st to 2nd shift with no torque converter.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> How are the regen capable controllers set up? Could a snap switch on the shifter be used to cancel the regen during shifts and just let the motor spin to help the synchros? Maybe even trigger it with a clutch pedal since clutch during shift is a natural habit for most drivers.
> 
> Some of the really high end cars have force sensors that begin synching gears when you put tension on the shifter. I know there aren't Ferrari shifters laying around in the salvage yard but EV builders have engineered way more impressive stuff that that. Seems like somebody could copy that.
> 
> Probably still wouldn't feel as cool as Miz's 1st to 2nd shift with no torque converter.


The reason you need a clutch with a ICE is that the ICE takes longer to spin down for the syncro to work. With no clutch and a little regen, the syncro works real well upshifting. Downshift takes a little skill.
Yes, you could use a switch to disenguage the Regen, but that is not going to solve the problem.
My experience is, find a gear that gives you 6k RPM at 65mph and use it all the time. The exception would be if using a small motor or a heavy car.
The need for shifting is for what purpose, racing?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I think most guys are shifting because of up grades like freeway on ramps or hills. I live in the phoenix east valley an it is as flat as olive oyl,s chest....

I am geared so first gives me 50 Mph at 6500, and high gives me 90 at 6500.

Most all streets I drive are 45 mph. With an occasional freeway squirt.

36-40 miles per day. 
Should be no problem.

Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Makes sense. Couple posts back it was mentioned that regen can make clutchless shifting a little tricky. I had assumed that the regen would pull RPM down too quickly. I was just brainstorming a fix if that were the case. I guess you AC guys can easily run enough RPM to make shifting less or not at all necessary in normal driving situations.


And yes Cruisin, you caught me thinking like a racer. Spent the majority of my life addicted to gasoline powered hot rods with narrow power bands and full throttle shifts. Trying to adjust my thinking but my old ways can be stubborn.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Rear axle ratio has a large effect on regen braking.

Think about it....Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

3.00:1 Rear gears allow the motor to turn 3 times per every 1 wheel revolution. The opposite is that on coast, the wheel spins the motor 3 revs per every 1 turn of the wheel.

Alrighty then: I have 6.14:1 gears.....

6 turns of the motor per 1 turn of the wheel. 1 turn of the wheel =6 turns of the motor. {giving the motor more leverage over the wheel than the above 3.00:1 ratio}

My car weight, wheel traction and road conditions all stay the same.

It will really increase my 80% regen over the same car with 3.00:1.

Sorry, it was just an odd thought late at night when sleep is being elusive.

Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

It all depends on what rpm the regen is most efficient at and how much energy you need to get rid of to slow down. The 6:1 rear will slow you down quicker than the 3:1 rear so the total time In regen will be less most likely canceling out the advantage of the higher motor RPM during the decel. Just looking at it at in rough terms I think its all about how much energy your moving car has at a given speed regardless of the rate that you try to put it back into the batteries. Yet another example of physics catching us trying to cheat it would seem.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The lower gearing, (higher ratio) will slow the vehicle faster if you let it, you can always modulate regen with the A-pedal, or the brake pedal, depending on how it's setup. Put another way, in first gear you'll do more of your stopping without using the brakes than in second gear so you get more from regen.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DanGT86 said:


> It all depends on what rpm the regen is most efficient at and how much energy you need to get rid of to slow down. The 6:1 rear will slow you down quicker than the 3:1 rear so the total time In regen will be less most likely canceling out the advantage of the higher motor RPM during the decel. Just looking at it at in rough terms I think its all about how much energy your moving car has at a given speed regardless of the rate that you try to put it back into the batteries. Yet another example of physics catching us trying to cheat it would seem.


Hi Dan,

Something most don't realize is that the faster you stop with regen, the more energy you can recover. The maximum you can recover is the Kinetic Energy (KE) of the vehicle. KE = ½mv². You can never get all of that. You always lose energy due to inefficiency of the drive system. And you always lose energy to road load (rolling resistance and aero drag). Of course road load helps you slow down, but takes from the KE to do so. So you can recover more of the KE by stopping faster and spending less time plowing thru the atmosphere. But the power needed to change the speed is the KE divided by the time (on average). So an instant stop requires infinite power. Typically the power used for braking the vehicle is greater than the power used to accelerate it. Often several times greater because the time for the braking event is shorter than acceleration.

In general the gearing used for acceleration is quite suitable for regeneration. One vehicle on which I did a lot of work had an AC drive and 3 speed tranny. Because of the band clutch in second, we limited regen to third gear only. It was very stoppable with regen all the down.

Regards,

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry. It was early...my point i never made was my concern was vehicle control. I might need to reduce regen percent to maybe 50% to keep deceleration at a nice gradual level. 

I am eventually going to do a third pedal for it but it is set throttle off regen. At present.

Yes. The motor/alternator will be spinning faster. It acts like a jake brake on a truck. In fact they have retarders for trucks. Just a giant alternator in the drivetrain.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Sorry. It was early...my point i never made was my concern was vehicle control. I might need to reduce regen percent to maybe 50% to keep deceleration at a nice gradual level.


I see. I thought you were just throwing out a physics brain teaser. I agree with your assumption that the same regen amount would probably be more violent in 1st than 2nd at high speeds. Especially with the 80% gear spread of the power glide trans. 

Major
I get that its impossible to recover more than the total KE. The thing I am wondering is this: If friction and wind losses were not present and the regen was equally efficient at all RPM, would stopping faster recover more energy than a slow stop?
Seems like the increase in stopping Power would result in the same total amount of work (stopping the car) but in less time. Since P=W/t.

Not trying to argue as I have no experience with regen at all. I just like to revisit the old high school physics lessons.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DanGT86 said:


> Major
> I get that its impossible to recover more than the total KE. The thing I am wondering is this: If friction and wind losses were not present and the regen was equally efficient at all RPM, would stopping faster recover more energy than a slow stop?


Nope. The change in energy depends only on the change in velocity assuming the mass remains the same. KE = ½mv² That assumes zero road load loss and driveline losses equal for any decel profile. 

In the real (or maybe theoretical) world of EV driving, I can't really see much if any penalty for fast accelerations either


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Higher C rates impacting range and battery life with acceleration.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Higher C rates impacting range and battery life with acceleration.


Not sure about that....but let's not hijack this thread any further


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

To get back on track, electrically i'm done. I am ready for batteries. I am stalling here waiting for the holidays to be over, trying to promote the cash difference between FLA's and lithiums and lastly doing some little touch up jobs on the car.


Question: (I suck at math, so forgive my question.) my car weighs in at 2,300#. I need to drive 50 miles per day, at 45mph on flat terrain. I can do that with 20-6vdc gc batteries. What ah rating lithiums would be close to that? 

I need to figure a good "sales" tactic to sway my darling wife.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can do that in my 2500lb Fiero with 36 100ah cells, hilly terrain, but that's pushing it, if I were you I'd get 130's at least. The sales tactic is the lithiums should last 4-5 times as long and give you a better vehicle.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thx for your battery choice. I was wondering 100-120, but now I know i was a little too low.

I spent the day working on a friends Jet. Those interstate 6vdc GC batteries are pretty good, but do not ever get the purely threaded terminals. They seem to be very easy to damage. Several pulled out of the lead and never even got remotely tight. 

We have welded posts back on 3 of them. All negative posts.

(which makes this a negative post about those batteries...) sorry..

Oh, my windshield frame is done and is being painted, the glass is being cut and ground to contour. 
_
I am stalling, and doing some small things to get me past the firstof the year, so i can start bank rolling for batteries.

Pics when i get the window installed. It really finishes off the car nicely.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Update: the glass company is having problems shaping the two windshield halves. They have already cracked four of them.... 

The good news is that the pillars came out killer and are painted/ ready to install. 

On another front......I have half the funds for my traction pack. 34- 130AH cells. Yahoo!

The body needs primed and painted now...

Miz


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*The body needs primed and painted now...

*Are you sure that is a good idea? - how about priming it and running it for 6 months before putting on the gloss

Just in case you need to change something


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Duncan said:


> *The body needs primed and painted now...
> 
> *Are you sure that is a good idea? - how about priming it and running it for 6 months before putting on the gloss
> 
> Just in case you need to change something


You could get the rat rod look without paying a lot of money.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Update: the glass company is having problems shaping the two windshield halves. They have already cracked four of them....
> 
> The good news is that the pillars came out killer and are painted/ ready to install.
> 
> ...


Miz, do you only have room for 34 and not 36 cells? I am finding that 38 cells seem to be better, mostly for range. The controller doesnt seem to react until regen over 130v, so no big deal.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Plus the higher voltage will allow you to hold your torque to a higher RPM. For a while I was thinking of adding two cells to my 36 but I've been waiting to see what they come out with for a higher voltage controller. If the new 144v controller is limited to 500 amps as rumored I might just go for the 650 amp controller with two extra cells instead.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Plus the higher voltage will allow you to hold your torque to a higher RPM. For a while I was thinking of adding two cells to my 36 but I've been waiting to see what they come out with for a higher voltage controller. If the new 144v controller is limited to 500 amps as rumored I might just go for the 650 amp controller with two extra cells instead.


I have a customer who uses 40 cells and has no problems. After a short distance the pack voltage will settle below 130v, so the limtation is nul.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd think that strong regen with a nearly full pack would cause controller shutdown. 40 cells getting 200 amps would probably push the pack over 144V. Maybe he has a low regen setting, or no steep hills.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Try no hills at all, just freeway on/off ramps. 

I do have room for just about 60 of them, so at this stage, it is just planning for me.
But 40 times even 3.8 volts per is 152 volts. where does the 130 volt shut off come into play? or even 38 = 144?

Thanks, Miz


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Try no hills at all, just freeway on/off ramps.
> 
> I do have room for just about 60 of them, so at this stage, it is just planning for me.
> But 40 times even 3.8 volts per is 152 volts. where does the 130 volt shut off come into play? or even 38 = 144?
> ...


After charging, the 40 cells will settle to a little over 130v which will cause the 1238 to limit regen until the voltage drops below 130v. Probably, 38 cells should be the max to avoid having to worry about any of this. However, if range is not a factor, stick with 36 cells.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't remember what cells you are using but with CALB's you don't charge higher than 3.6 and there is no real reason to go above 3.5.


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

which batteries offer the greatest voltage range charged to discharged?

ive seen different battery companies display voltages like 3.8-2.5 and such. 

But just wondering which one offers more power, I guess?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gsmith191145 said:


> which batteries offer the greatest voltage range charged to discharged?
> 
> ive seen different battery companies display voltages like 3.8-2.5 and such.
> 
> But just wondering which one offers more power, I guess?


 
I guess NiCad. You can discharge to zero without cell damage, so 100%. But this has nothing (well very little, maybe indirectly) to do with "offering power". Your question is very confusing. What is it you really want to know? Power or energy? And like Tina Turner says "what's voltage got to do with it?"


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

major said:


> I guess NiCad. You can discharge to zero without cell damage, so 100%. But this has nothing (well very little, maybe indirectly) to do with "offering power". Your question is very confusing. What is it you really want to know? Power or energy? And like Tina Turner says "what's voltage got to do with it?"


The best for range is the Sanyo 18650 Li-ion Cobolt 2.5v to 4.5v 3.7ah.
I used 8000 of these in my VW in 2005 which gave a extensive undertimed range. I never drove far enough to determine how far I could go. Didnt have good BMS and SOC then to ensure safety in charging.


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

cruisin said:


> The best for range is the Sanyo 18650 Li-ion Cobolt 2.5v to 4.5v 3.7ah.
> I used 8000 of these in my VW in 2005 which gave a extensive undertimed range. I never drove far enough to determine how far I could go. Didnt have good BMS and SOC then to ensure safety in charging.


Thanks cruisin that is what I was asking for. 

Sounds like a whole lot of labor to put those together, but exactly the info I was looking for.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am talking Lithium based batteries here. 

Question 1= "What is the most popular battery brand?"
{the easiest to get and the best record for "no failures" and best trouble-free usage.}

I am, at this point, officially confused. I understood that the Curtis 1238R-7601 controller "shut down" at 130 VDC and over. period...

Now I am hearing they just stop regen function at 130 VDC and above, but will still operate as a controller/inverter. {the controller does not just "shut down", just stops regening.] 

Question 2= Can anyone who has "been there, done that", clarify the real world operation?

Question 3= [From a performance standpoint] Which is best, a lower voltage pack with regen working all the time, OR a higher voltage pack with regen working only at the times the system dips below the 130VDC point?

Thanks to all. This is very good information to me. Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, Back to the build its self:

I have finished and painted the three window pillars. After a deal of trauma, the glass company has finished the two windshield glass panels. with any luck at all, I will have it installed this weekend.

I hope you all have a Merry Christmas/Happy Holiday!

Families can be a real pain at times, But try to stop and smell the roses, The "good old days" are slipping by as we speak.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would say without question that CALB seems to have the most consistent product, fewest reported defects, closely matched cells, easiest to get, and good performance even beyond recommended use, as I can attest  I have not heard of a single defective cell from them that didn't have the possibility of user error involved.
The Curtis shutdown voltage has always been a bit vague, with somewhere over 130V being the target. I've had some shutdowns but I don't think they were voltage related, I seem to have some occasional random shutdowns on regen, but it can happen with very light or very strong regen, and never over the shutdown voltage. I think I may have a contactor that sometimes fails to hold during the current reversal. Hasn't happened it quite a while. Jack Rickard also reported some occasional phantom shut downs, though I don't think anyone else has. So basically I don't really know how it behaves on high regen voltage 
I would say if you don't have many hills and you don't do a lot of stop and go you would probably get more range by running extra cells and no regen, however there may be long term issues with running the controller so close to it's max voltage all the time. I think 38 cells charged no more than 3.5V should give you some room for mild regen, depending on what actually happens near max voltage.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That all makes sense. I am not a big fan of running anything near it,s maximum and expect a long lifespan too. Everything in nature {and science} is usually a trade off.

So, I guess I will stick to 36 batteries and 3.5 volts max.


OK, so I charge each new battery to 3.5 volts and install them I get 126 pack volts.

If I run them in the car until I see 94 pack volts, then check each cell individually, I should get about 2.6 volts each {if I have no dodgy ones}.

This should be a decent periodic check-up to verify I have none going out of spec. ?Es Verdad?

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The 3.5V will only show up during charging, as soon as the charger is shut off they'll eventually drop back down to resting 3.35 or so, and drop even more as you drive. That's why I think 38 cells and mild regen would actually be OK, I just don't know if I'd push it to 40 cells.
No need to go all the way down to 2.6V, unless you are talking about under load. Resting voltage from 2.8-2.9 should give you a good indication of bottom balance, but until you know you are balanced you should probably take them no lower than 3V resting and then monitor them closely as you take more charge from them at a lower rate. Run your headlights, fan, heater, maybe idle the motor, to put a small drain on the pack. If they are out of balance then you need to adjust individual cells as needed, if you intend to bottom balance. If you top balance then do the same on the other end. With a closely match pack it shouldn't matter too much which way you do it, unless you are like me and tend to push things till you are driving on fumes, or stray electrons.  Then you definitely want to bottom balance.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, That is the most concise batch of information I have ever read. No mystery, no guessing. 

From it, I decided to just top balance at the beginning. I am driving a known route over flat terrain. I can do a few cycles and occasionally monitor cell voltage. If I start to see one straying then I can go through the extra step of bottom balancing. Or just make it a practice of bottom balancing annually,

Unless an affordable and clever BMS comes along, I am open to that. I have not seen a really decent unit. They all seem to be cheaply made or expensive.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it's worth picking up a Cell log 8 and using it to do an initial check on your cells, less than $30. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=9282 It can do 8 cells at a time so you'll have to do a few runs and move it but it graphs what your cells are doing under load in real time. If you see one or more sagging significantly more than the others you know you may have a problem. Note that it draws power only from 7 of the 8 cells, not much, but if left in place for a long time it will slightly unbalance your cells. I think there is a way to mod it so it draws from all 8 cells but as long as you are aware and don't leave it hooked up all the time it shouldn't matter.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Thanks, That is the most concise batch of information I have ever read. No mystery, no guessing.
> 
> From it, I decided to just top balance at the beginning. I am driving a known route over flat terrain. I can do a few cycles and occasionally monitor cell voltage. If I start to see one straying then I can go through the extra step of bottom balancing. Or just make it a practice of bottom balancing annually,
> 
> ...


Miz, my experience in installing Li-ion Cells since 2005 and the MINI BMS I sell since the beginning of 2011, the best and most cost effective way to do it as I have explained elsewhere on this forum. New cells can be to balanced using the proceedures outlined in the Mini BMS manual. Once done, with the use of a good charger, like the Elcon 3000 programmed for your cells, the charger will reduce current at the end of the charge cycle to allow the shunting built in the BMS to top balance each and every full charge. Bottom balancing is not necessary if following this procedure. Using cells from various manufacturers and other BMS systems, I find this to be the most cost effective and dependable way to do it after a lot of trying differant ways. I do not like the BMS that has wiring carring pack voltage to various points, even to guages. Not to mention the cost. Do it right and it will treat you right.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It seems to be more cost effective to skip the BMS if you have a well matched pack and do occasional manual checks and balance if needed. There just doesn't seem to be much variation between cells to warrant the extra expense and complexity.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It seems to be more cost effective to skip the BMS if you have a well matched pack and do occasional manual checks and balance if needed. There just doesn't seem to be much variation between cells to warrant the extra expense and complexity.


The main purpose of the BMS is 2 fold. 1)protect against overchage and 2)protect against undercharge. There is no need to fool around with the sytem if designed to work and protect itself. BMS at around $13 per cell is REAL cheap insurance. If you have a run away charger, good bye cells. If you put your foot in it and a rogue cell drops voltage too far, good bye cell. BMS protects and warns about these conditions and takes action to protect the cell or cells. Anyway, most would not be caught dead without such cheap insurance.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am sorry if I confused anyone, but I somehow came to think of a BMS as a black box with a hundred wires hooking to and monitoring the individual cells....a "system".

The small boards or straps that set onto the cells are not networked and are not a "system" to me, so I tend to think of them as separate units and not as a BMS.

Answer: Yes, I do think they are a good affordable policy.

But, I have no experience with them. As with so many other things EV, I have heard both good and bad about them to the point of being numb. EXAMPLES: 

"They will leave you stranded along the road for .01 Volt too low and you only have a block to go."

"They will 'cascade' fail and the charger will run away and burn your car /house down."

{All this with no first hand empirical data or proof.}

Do they all protect low and over voltages or do some just do over voltages?

Do any come with a warranty to replace a battery it allows to be killed?

Just random thoughts.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I take some simple facts into account, some people have lost cells because the BMS they paid for and installed failed, for one reason or another. Some people, including myself, have had no problems running without a BMS when using some simple procedures. Of course some people running a BMS have had no problems and some people without a BMS have had problems, but not paying for a BMS still allows you to damage and replace some cells and still spend less money. If your cells are closely matched and manually balanced there should be no significant diversion between them. If there is there is probably something else wrong in the system, a bad cell from the factory, external uneven drain, bad connection, etc., which is why I suggest initially putting a Cell log 8 on them to graph how each cell is doing. It's easy enough to assemble your pack without a BMS, monitor how they behave manually, and then decide if you want to add a BMS. I like the concept of a BMS but have not yet seen a need for one.
A BMS can be as simple as split pack voltage monitoring, increasing in complexity to per cell high and low voltage signalling, with or without shunting, to per cell real time voltage monitoring, with signalling and shunting.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I view BMS the same as power everything in a car: nice to have but I can live without them. Some can't. Sometimes, like when the car is underwater, they don't work when they need to.

Yes they fail. So will a single battery in a pack. The trick is to determine if an individual failure or malfunction outweighs the possible other effects.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Exactly.

My perfect system :

Would monitor during charging or regen and stop an over charge condition on a cell by cell basis. {Which means an automatic top balance.}

Would also monitor during use for under voltage and cut out the low cells one by one until you approached your motors lowest operating voltage {sort of an automatic bottom balance} and then send you a warning when you were say 50 percent there. It would give you gradual warning of an impending shutdown.

Would record cycle information, high and lows, for each cell.

Would monitor and detect a severe bottom out-of-balance condition and at say 20 percent of the pack, it would do an automatic bottom balance at the next charging phase. 

All in an affordable, smallish package. {I guess that is a pipe dream.}

But all of that is really not necessary if you have a reasonably consistent pack and do regular manual monitoring. 

But most people are non-tech heads and just want to get-in-and-drive. They want a "Black box" approach to everything.

OK: I am scuffing/sanding/blocking the cowl top in prep to mounting my "VEE" wind shield. I am not a patient body man. so It is going to get a decently smooth surface and black primer with a wax top coat. Later after driving it a year or so, I can get it to a good body man for the attention it deserves.

At this point, All I need is maybe 6 wires to hook up, Mount the seat frame to the car, replace the radiator back on, fill the cooling system, scuff/prime the hood and grille shell and of coarse....buy and install batteries.

Then I get to do the DMV dance, as it is a totally hand built car. I am grateful to live in the good ole USA and Arizona, where I have no added tech inspections, engineering certs or other hoops to jump through.










Where I can do this to my front axle without getting Henry Fords permission in writing and a cert from a licensed engineer to go with it.


Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Would also monitor during use for under voltage and cut out the low cells one by one until you approached your motors lowest operating voltage {sort of an automatic bottom balance} and then send you a warning when you were say 50 percent there.


I don't think that would even be possible. How are you going to physically disconnect an individual cell from the pack and then also rout power around it so the next cell in series is connected?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

LOL, I just dream up the problems, not solve them...

But since you asked: And this is just pie-in-the-sky thinking.

Each traction pack cell would have a small relay mounted on top. One that would conduct cell power or shunt around the cell. {Obviously one just large enough to handle the load of that cell}.

The cell terminals would be hooked to the relay and not directly to the power cabling. The power cabling is hooked to the relay instead of the cell terminals.

When the central BMS unit "sees" a low voltage condition approaching in an individual cell............ it would signal the controller to interrupt the power to the drive motor-then operate the small relay to cut that cell out of the circuit-then resume the power back to the drive motor {where you would need to release and reapply the throttle}.

It could also give the driver a visual alert of how many cells were out of the circuit as well as the pack voltage at that point.

One by one until the motor/controller minimum voltage is reached, then it shuts down the controller, getting you the most miles without harming the cells.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> LOL, I just dream up the problems, not solve them...
> 
> But since you asked: And this is just pie-in-the-sky thinking.
> 
> ...


Hi Miz,

I have had several others suggest this method. You must realize that your "small relay" needs to carry full battery pack current and be rated at full pack voltage. So is essentially a main contactor. And those typically don't come in SPDT so you would need 2 for each cell. This basically adds about $300 per cell to the battery pack not considering the cost of connections and control. The added weight and space would also be significant.

Keep dreaming 

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah. But everything started with an idea. 

I wonder how those power tool batteries do the low voltage cut out?

Maybe this would be better handled from inside the cell.....

Happy holidays jrp3 & Major!


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Here is a video of the power tools and how they deal with the end of discharge. The voltage is measured at the battery instead of the terminals and the amperage is measured through a wire going to the output. It looks like the output amperage drops because of the 1.5 ohm load which is not a constant current load so current drops when battery voltage drops until it reaches the low voltage cutoff and then its all over and the ammeter is a little slow to respond. I'm not convinced that bottom balancing is happening here but it seems that because there is a patent out there for it that people believe it is used in these packs. It isn't hard to switch the voltage of 10 cells in series at 19 amps or less though, with something this small the whole thing could be done with MOSFETs which don't to be too big to handle a small load. I think it just complicates the issue though. Looks like the Dewalt LVC per cell is in the low 2.4x volt range which will provide way more cycles for a power tool than anyone will need figuring that the pack holds 70wh or so of energy, plenty of drilling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vituFUmEnU8


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## Evilsizer (Jan 25, 2010)

There is alot to read here but i have to ask. how come you didnt flatten the copper pipe that contacts the motor? It would be more efficient at removing the heat, side effect would be less tubing needed.



mizlplix said:


> LOL, I just dream up the problems, not solve them...
> 
> But since you asked: And this is just pie-in-the-sky thinking.
> 
> ...


i have an idea on how to do this. you would need a master board with all the relays and maybe a microcontroller or two, tied to a master controller or computer. this would have to take alot of time to work out the bugs on this. the basic would be the master sees a ID from the slave controller and the master tells it what to do (ie how to reroute the circuit and carry on). if the slave, master controller, and relays are fast enough. you shouldnt even notice anything has happened, shouldnt even need to release the pedal at all.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You still have the problem of components that can handle switching full pack current and voltage, for each cell. Plus the basic fact that it's all completely unnecessary. Get closely matched cells, keep them reasonably balanced either manually or with a BMS, and use a controller that limits current if voltage begins to drop below a certain level, as the Curtis 1238 does. People are going through all sorts of complex methods to solve problems that don't exist with a closely matched set of cells. That is the proper solution, get a closely matched pack.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I also think that people aren't thinking about the fact that if the pack is getting discharged to 80% on the majority of trips then the pack is undersized! Also, remember that the pack capacity will decrease over time. If you have to push the pack from day one then the pack won't last long because a small decrease in capacity means the pack is no longer of sufficient capacity. If you over size the pack, even by 10-20% it will last significantly longer. It will last longer for the fact that it isn't getting as deeply discharged on the regular runs and for the fact that the capacity can drop further before it becomes a problem. Don't complicate things by trying to get every last electron out of the pack. It isn't necessary.

Decide what to do and go with it. I have used a top balanced pack with shunt balancers and am currently using a top balanced pack with only a half-pack voltage monitor. The reason I switched is that I found that there was a miniscule amount of balancing being done when I top balanced on each charge. I lowered my ending voltage, after balancing the pack, and ran for nearly a year before the voltages at end of charge were just over 0.10v apart. When I checked the parasitic load of each BMS unit (the range was 1.010mA-1.021mA) and found that the difference in current wasn't the cause (the high cell had a 1.012mA drain and the low cell had a 1.018mA drain so at most 0.053Ah difference out of 200Ah) I decided that the difference in BMS board drain wasn't the cause. I think it was dirt and water getting into the box.

I now have better closed off battery box, not easy to do in a Gizmo, and am running another test without the BMS boards to see how things turn out. So far the pack is staying quite balanced. I'm confident enough that if I were to do this all over I would balance the cells, top or bottom, check them after a month or so of driving to make sure things are staying in line and then ignore them for a year at a time. If you have a reliable charger to stop at the prescribed voltage you have nothing to worry about. Oh, I would also stop the charge at 3.45-3.50vpc.

As JRP3 says, just get a closely matched set of cells. Get a couple extras as spares and you will be just fine.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> I also think that people aren't thinking about the fact that if the pack is getting discharged to 80% on the majority of trips then the pack is undersized! Also, remember that the pack capacity will decrease over time. If you have to push the pack from day one then the pack won't last long because a small decrease in capacity means the pack is no longer of sufficient capacity. If you over size the pack, even by 10-20% it will last significantly longer. It will last longer for the fact that it isn't getting as deeply discharged on the regular runs and for the fact that the capacity can drop further before it becomes a problem. Don't complicate things by trying to get every last electron out of the pack. It isn't necessary.
> 
> Decide what to do and go with it. I have used a top balanced pack with shunt balancers and am currently using a top balanced pack with only a half-pack voltage monitor. The reason I switched is that I found that there was a miniscule amount of balancing being done when I top balanced on each charge. I lowered my ending voltage, after balancing the pack, and ran for nearly a year before the voltages at end of charge were just over 0.10v apart. When I checked the parasitic load of each BMS unit (the range was 1.010mA-1.021mA) and found that the difference in current wasn't the cause (the high cell had a 1.012mA drain and the low cell had a 1.018mA drain so at most 0.053Ah difference out of 200Ah) I decided that the difference in BMS board drain wasn't the cause. I think it was dirt and water getting into the box.
> 
> ...


I agree, put it together and leave it alone. However, without the BMS you will have a concern for Over undercharge during your trips and may end up destroying cells without a alarm telling you to take your foot off of it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The controller handles that quite well, as I've experienced on a couple of occasions. On one I actually drove the vehicle till it stopped moving and the controller prevented any cell damage.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The controller handles that quite well, as I've experienced on a couple of occasions. On one I actually drove the vehicle till it stopped moving and the controller prevented any cell damage.


Sorry, thats when you can really get in trouble. The controller, depends on the brand if it will do anything, and what the settings are DOES NOT SEE CELL VOLTAGE, only pack voltage. If you think a cell is not going to find a reason to take a dump from the rest, just wait it is only a matter of time. Most people have not been working with these cells very long and will learn after it is too late. Been there and done it in as early as 2002..


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

cruisin said:


> I agree, put it together and leave it alone. However, without the BMS you will have a concern for Over undercharge during your trips and may end up destroying cells without a alarm telling you to take your foot off of it.


That is what my CycleAnalyst is for. It is my fuel gauge. The 1/2 pack voltage monitor will tell me if there are issues with a cell. The probability of the same voltage things happening on each half of the pack is quite small. So no, I have no concern for overcharge or over discharge with my current setup.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

GizmoEV, what voltage differential do you need before your 1/2 pack monitor lights up? If 1 cell takes a dump and you have a 2 volt difference between each side, you'd know its done but if that cell is at 1.2 volts if your foot isn't off of it 'NOW' it could be killed very fast. If the difference isn't enough before it lights up than a few rogue cells with higher voltage sag might give false positives and cause a warning to be ignored. Granted if you know you are very close to being out of juice and making that careful creep home, you'd be watching it like a hawk anyway.

BTW, I'm not against the 1/2 pack voltage differential monitor setup, it could work as a good early warning, I'm just curious about your implementation of it.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> GizmoEV, what voltage differential do you need before your 1/2 pack monitor lights up?
> 
> BTW, I'm not against the 1/2 pack voltage differential monitor setup, it could work as a good early warning, I'm just curious about your implementation of it.


I have a digital volt meter hooked up to it so I see everything from 0.01V and up. The way the monitor works it only gives half the voltage difference so I had the DVM set up to read out twice the input voltage reading so I didn't have to do any doubling in my head. I have it set up to show which half is low so a negative reading says the back (negative end) half is lower and a positive reading means the front (positive end) half is lower.

The most I have seen it read is 0.14V under a 1.5C load with the pack at about 10°C. With a warmer pack I don't see as much difference and IIRC I see more back half lower readings under no or very light load rather than the typical front half lower readings under load. At fully charged or after sitting for a while the reading is usually 0.00V or sometimes -0.00V but no more than -0.01V. It is interesting to watch and try to figure out what is going on.

Naturally when under load the voltage differences could be the resistance in the connections and not the batteries them selves. Due to constraints in what I had to work with one string of cells was turned around and thus the front half of the pack has about a 1m length of 1 gauge cable in the middle which the back half does not have. This could be one reason I usually see front half low readings more than back half low readings.

For more detail check out my blog post about it at http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com/2011/07/battery-pack-balance-monitor.html


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Good read, after I saw the pictures of the PCB boards you used in the process I realized I read this before but I didn't remember this was your project. It's hard to connect a project with a name sometimes. 0.14v difference is pretty much nothing, I figured the difference would be larger but that is very good that it is small.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, changing the subject...

From you guys that drive one....What is the really usable RPM range of an AC50?

I know whats advertised and I,ve seen the torque chart, I am asking for seat-of-the-pants driving.


What is the shelf life of a batch of LiFePo cells without charging? Like right after delivery. How long do I have before I need to start charging them?


Lastly, Which is best, Jacketed cables, flat woven straps or solid copper straps?

TYVM, Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I've got 2 cells that have been sitting, unused, since March 2010. The voltage has not dropped even 0.01 volt. Supposedly they can sit indefinitely without harm.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> What is the shelf life of a batch of LiFePo cells without charging? Like right after delivery. How long do I have before I need to start charging them?


Don't touch them until you are ready to install them unless you are going to play with a few, which I recommend so you can get a feel for how they really work. Jack Rickard of EVTV had a set of TS cells sit for a couple of years in all kinds of temperature ranges, still in the unopened original packaging, and they still were sitting at 3.3V. There is no self discharge to speak of. If you are worried about them just test the voltage every few months to convince your self they are still ok. If you find some are dropping in voltage and nothing is discharging them then they are bad cells and need to be replaced.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In my 2500lb Fiero I use second gear almost exclusively for every thing from 0-65 mph including some steep hills, that's 0-7500 RPMs, I bumped my controller above the stock 6500 limit. I can't accelerate up to 65 on a steep hill as there isn't much power above 6000 RPM or so but it can certainly maintain 65 on the flat. There is no place to actually do 65 legally within range anyway so it's not an issue. If there were I'd probably use third. If I want faster acceleration I'll use first up to almost 45 mph. So basically the whole RPM range is usable to some degree. Also I'm using an AC31 with the 550 amp controller, your results may vary. The AC50 has lower peak torque per amp but peak torque is available for an extra 1000 RPM I think.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Regarding the cells either leave them alone in a cool place after checking them with a DVM to see if they are all about the same or test each one for actual capacity to see if you have any clunkers. I don't think anyone has had a bad one from CALB so I'd probably just leave them alone.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, I just didnt want to buy the cells too early.

On my car....I can now eliminate the rear pack frame and mount as they were made when I was going to run FLA's. I dont need the rear one, but I am going to keep the front one though as a mount for the charger and DC/DC converter.

That leads to another question:

I am running the normal things: head/tail lights, turn signals, 3 small pumps at 3 amps each, 1 pump at 8 amps, and thats about it. What size DC/DC converter would you recommend? AND would you run a buffer battery or the converter alone?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would use a small battery, preferably AGM, as a buffer, and so far I like the $150 600 watt Mean Well that I've been using for a DC/DC, recommended by Tesseract https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/s...-1&catalogId=10001&pa=374222&productId=374222
Takes a large range of input voltages and output is adjustable. Not weather proof so you have to mount it accordingly, and it does have a fan so you need some airflow. I would set it to shut off when the vehicle is off so the fan doesn't run all the time. Just make sure you don't have any phantom loads draining the 12V battery.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That looks like a pretty good unit. The price is not too bad either.

It sez AC/DC converter. Does it run from a DC input also?


OK, I am still on the grand quest to put a tachometer on top of the steering column, like an "old school" hotrod. I am trying to get a usable signal out of a sensor / reluctor mounted to the front stub shaft on the AC50.

So far, no good. All sensors are VR and put out an AC signal. The voltage changes with rpms and then gets converted to a square wave that the tach can read. 

I am using an ignition module from a 1985 Camaro/305/F.I. engine. It has a dedicated tach tap that is a square wave, to drive the stock Camaro in-dash tach. 

The 3 sensors I have tried result in failure. They vary in range from .003-1.0 Volts and 4.0-6.0 volts. If I remember right, the GM tap needs a signal in the .5-3.0 Volt range.

SO, I now have one from a Ford F850 diesel truck. It is used for the speedometer signal. Lastly I have one from Ford Dura Spark 1 system.

{Oh, Yea....I cant use the stock factory Camaro pick-up assy. because it uses a closed taurus-"doughnut" shape which will not go over the 7/8" OD motor shaft}.

A lot of industrial/aftermarket {pricey} things exist. I am trying to find a cost effective solution I can hand over to the forum for others to use.

TYVM, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> That looks like a pretty good unit. The price is not too bad either.
> 
> It sez AC/DC converter. Does it run from a DC input also?


I sure hope so   Yeah it works fine, certain power supplies don't seem to care. That's the technical explanation 



> A lot of industrial/aftermarket {pricey} things exist. I am trying to find a cost effective solution I can hand over to the forum for others to use.
> 
> TYVM, Miz


I think Netgain offers something for the Warp motors, should fit on the AC50 as well I'd imagine. Unless that's one of those pricey bits you are trying to avoid.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah, I was looking for a combo of locally avaliable parts under $50 that would create a correct signal to run an original in-dash tach as well as an aftermarket tach. Well, I finally got tired of search/testing and bought the unit from Rechargecar.com.










It is a plate mount, sensor with cable and an impulse ring for $99.

It even has the internal circuitry to convert the hall effect signal to the correct square wave for any tach. 

My only hurdle is that my AC50 has the encoder mounted in the intended spot.

The shaft is long enough so, I will simply make an aluminum spacer ring to go around the encoder to raise the sensor mounting plate up high enough to clear.

{and move along with life} 

Miz


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

FYI, the hall effect sensor used is available separately from Mouser (and others) for ~$35 delivered: Cherry GS100701


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

But does it convert the signals from the halls effect to square wave, have an adjustable mounting plate and a nice reluctor ring? (That fits on my AC50?)

I read the Mouser specs but it does not say anything about square wave. Just voltage.

TY, Miz


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> But does it convert the signals from the halls effect to square wave, have an adjustable mounting plate and a nice reluctor ring? (That fits on my AC50?)
> 
> I read the Mouser specs but it does not say anything about square wave. Just voltage.
> 
> TY, Miz


Yes. Their "square wave" is just constant voltage with the occasional pull to ground. 
The app notes for the sensor show how to put a pullup resistor on the sensor to generate the "square wave". The rechargecar kit has that resistor in the wiring harness. Other than the sensor, that's all the electronics that the kit has.

And yes, that's what you get for the extra $60: bracket and little aluminum ring. Buying the sensor alone is a cheaper option for those of us with the ability and inclination to make the bracket and ring ourselves (and solder on a resistor).


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, the netgain sensor kit arrived. Just for he record, it does not fit the AC50 motor. The bolt circle is too small on the plate. Just an fyi.

Those of us who are non electronic and were not exposed to much in our lives are not familiar with the meaning of the terms. Even after reading the meaning of "pull-up resistor" , it is clear as mud.

So, after a few fumbling tries to cobble togather something, we buy the kit.

The encoder is mounted on the end where i need the sensor to go....but the shaft is long and they can be stacked. I will incorporate a adapter sub plate there to make it all work.

Pics tomorrow after it is installed.

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Those of us who are non electronic and were not exposed to much in our lives are not familiar with the meaning of the terms. Even after reading the meaning of "pull-up resistor" , it is clear as mud.


I may have this backward but think of the "pull-up resistor" like a water pump filling a bucket with a trap door bottom. When a screw head or magnet goes by the sensor it is like the trap door of the bucket being opened and it is drained very rapidly. The door is then closed and the "pull-up resistor" fills the bucket up before the next screw head or magnet goes by. The water level in the bucket is analogous to the voltage in the signal wire from the sensor.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thx, gizmo. That does help somewhat. 











This is the RPM sensor mounted on top of two 7/8" spacers to clear the existing decoder, with two 1/4X1-1/2" allen cap screws and an aluminum adapter plate. I opted for a 4 pole signal emulating a V8 engine. Everything blue locktited. The air gap set at .065"

Now my 6" air duct goes on and then the whole cooling system, for the last time.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My aluminum radiator is back on, hood brace rods, top and bottom hoses and pump manifold. I am running a 30% solution of propylene glycol and tap water with 1tsp. Of lemon dish washing detergent added for a miniscus solvent.

It should be good for 17 deg. F. To 285 F.

Proplyene glycol is extremely non-corrosive. And friendlier than car anti-freeze to exotic metals.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Proplyene glycol is extremely non-corrosive. And friendlier than car anti-freeze to exotic metals.


So does that mean it will work better on a system with a mix of metals like aluminum, copper, and brass? I have soft well water so would a mix like yours eliminate the etching of the metals by the water?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

http://www.countrysidepet.com/propylene-glycol.aspx


The computer guys claim it is good for multi metal systems as we have in our mainframe at work. AND I have in the roadster {aluminum, copper and stainless steel} They change it annually due to heat cycling in the summer. When the PH gets along to the acid side.

They also use an anti fungal to retard alge formation { it is classed as a food product}. It is routinely used in foods, make ups and in this case, a veterinary flush for cattle.



miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pre mixed: http://www.amazon.com/Camco-FREEZEBAN-NON-TOXIC-50DEG-ANTIFREEZE/dp/B0006IX7YM
You can also get -100 degree.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

a 1/16 sounds like too much air gap. Is that what the manufacturer recommends?

Man, do you do nice work.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah, 1/16" gap was recommended.

"Step 4: Although we have pre-positioned the sensor in the bracket, you may need to adjust the distance between the sensor and the targets to about 1/16".

The reason was that the screws are not all exactly even....

But before I button it all up, I think I am going to file the screws down to even and smooth them so I can re-adjust it to say .010". 

I am excited as this weekend is mine and I have no outside distractions.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, Stepping back for a moment to revisit the subject of *WATER COOLING*.

As shown previously {in this thread} I am using a trio of regular electric fuel pumps to pump proplyene glycol coolant through my liquid cooling system. But, I always have a "Plan B", and I think I might have found some good options.

OPTION 1








These are dead quiet and pump about 2.5 GPM. I have found these from $45-$36 each. They accept 1/4"-3/8" tubing and run off of 12VDC.
http://www.techloops.com/thermaltake-clw0132-p500-water-pump.html


OPTION2








These are a little larger at 4.5 GPM and are costlier {naturally} at $77 each. They run on 12-24VDC and use 1/2" tubing.
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=858


If there are any glitches with my present system, I am considering a change from three to two pumps. One to the controller and one for the motor and transmission {neither of which may be necessary at all}. 

It is good to have a back-up plan. 

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice finds. My sense is that the lower GPM would be more than enough for EV cooling needs.


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## helluvaengineer96 (Oct 8, 2010)

Miziplix,
Thanks for sharing your project. Just read from start to finish.

Full disclosure: I've yet to get my EV on the road, most of the mechanicals are done but I've yet to invest in the battery pack. But after doing a good bit of research I settle on radial format vs the pouch in a plastic box format. There are significant surface area advantages to the radials.. but you pay for it, in needing to use a lot more smaller devices.... But it does give you higher current limits. 

I wanted the higher current limits and the flexibility of the size. I doing a Fiero conv and fitting all the batteries where the gas tank use to go. The only thing that would fit and give me the peak current I was looking for is the radials....

My project was put on hold about 9 months ago (I am an exec and we are buying another company) So I am going from memory here.. One thing to look at is peak and continous charge and discharge ratings. Depending on your range requirements you can go faster with less capacity (range). But if you are building for long range this advantage might not help. Also you can charge them faster, again it might not matter to you. Because of the higher ratings you have greater margin to play with, it could help in your hot environment. 

The advantages might not make a hill of beans for your design, looks like you have plenty of room. The radials are not used nearly as much as the pouch in a box kind so if you are looking for what it used by more folks you probably want to stick with the pouch in a box.

Anyway, good luck.. Looks like you have a great project going and have wonderful craftmanship.

You've inspired me, hope I can get back to working on my project.








mizlplix said:


> I am talking Lithium based batteries here.
> 
> Question 1= "What is the most popular battery brand?"
> {the easiest to get and the best record for "no failures" and best trouble-free usage.}
> ...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

H: Thanks for the kind words. When I decided to build this car, I didnt know just what a long and difficult journey it would be.

I started out at the age of 14 doing helper work for the older neighborhood hotrodder. He seemed like the smartest person I had ever met. I couldnt wait to get back over to his garage to immerse myself in pure mechanical heaven. 

As years rolled by, I came to realize that he was mostly improvising as he went...LoL. My experiences and skills grew. I built and completed many-many things over the years and I always had this dream to build a car that no one else touched. I would do everything myself, which required me to learn a staggering amount of things and build a wide array of skills.

I took me 40 or so more years to accomplish this little feat. At 60 and a lot more humble, I sit at this juncture. I get the same issues as everyone else. I run through times of productivity and then of out-rite lazyness during my attempt to complete my car.

I also want to thank you and all who have responded to this thread for giving me help and encouragement when I needed it.

As the end grows near, I promise to do a roll-out video of the car when it first runs to share the moment with you all.

Miz


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Miz,

It's not the end but you've got a cool ride for the rest of the journey.

Chuck


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> ...had this dream to build a car that no one else touched. I would do everything myself, which required me to learn a staggering amount of things and build a wide array of skills...


Very similar story to how the Inhaler came to be. It's quite the rewarding journey. I'm on my second scratch build, and the first one isn't even running yet (the second will beat the first to the road by a long shot), and have more planned - can't turn back...

Lovin' your journey Miz!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Update:
Doing some prep and paint:

















I am a poor body/paint man. I am used to only doing good enough for it to look OK at 180 MPH going in front of the grand stands.

My body final finish is gloss green wet sanded with 1000 grit and then waxed to give it that traditional "American Hotrod" finish. {flat with a deep coloring}
As I couldn't find any dark green primer....

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

mizlplix said:


> As I couldn't find any dark green primer....
> Miz


Most of the places I buy auto paint can be talked into tinting anything any color. Feather Fill used to come green too.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thx, Piotr. I had the "big two" paint stores mix me up a couple of samples, but they all lacked the correct color to go with the existing Green/Mottled Silver scheme I had started. I guess the problem is when changing a gloss to flat, or vice versa, it makes it tricky to hit the mix exactly and flats are difficult to match well. What I am doing is not too bad, it is just labor intensive...{and I am lazy}

In the last week, I have made mounts, primed and painted the rear-view mirrors. Two outside mirrors are a "universal" motorcycle set and the inside is a 1949 Packard mirror given me by a friend. 

This leaves me a ton of sanding/priming/blocking to do to finish the shell-hood-cowl-sides and tail. 

I have located an old steamer trunk to go in the rear behind the seats under the roll bar. It serves many purposes. 1-it covers the hump in the rear cross member for the big rear leaf spring. 2-it gives me a place to carry things{a jacket-a car cover- my charging cord-Etc}. 3-it is pretty much expected...LOL

Lastly, It gets the spare tire mounted at the extreme rear on the pointed tail.

I am in my saving mode. I have about 1/2 of my battery cost saved. Tax returns will get me part way there with some help from selling on Craigslist, I am confident I can get batteries by May-June.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

darn, I was hoping you'd be done really soon now that the weather gets warmer.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I started on this car just after my Dad died in 2004. We had both planned to "someday" build a car togather, but life kept getting in the way......

So, I embarked alone expecting to be up and running in a year or so. LOL

Here I sit 8 years later. There have been civilizations rise and fall in shorter time.....

The whole EV conversion restarted it after a 6 month slump.

It is people like you and a ton of others on this site that have kept me going with your input. 

February is our traditional coldest month here, so I'm not quite over the hump.

Thx, Miz


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Mix, I'm collecting parts to start my T-bucket electric build. You and Todd have been my inspiration. Keep up the good work.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Still painting/wet sanding...Sheesh!

This hand work is for the birds....

I have learned some new things: 

1. Paint does not have to obey gravity.

2. I can not install glass. {In one piece that is...}

3. When good things happen, The IRS is there with it's hand out.

4. When bad things happen, the IRS is there with it's hand out.

5. Don't drink Jack Daniels when painting.

Miz


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## Junkman (Feb 12, 2012)

Great thread I just spent the last hour reading it all. I am in the east valley myself so if you ever need a hand give me a shout. Im an Aircraft mechanic (helicopters) by trade, amateur designer and lifelong hotrodder. Keep up the good work!!


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

mizlplix said:


> 5. Don't drink Jack Daniels when painting.
> Miz


No actually I prefer Yukon Jack for automotive, Southern comfort for aircraft, 151 Bacardi for electrical. note the attached pics in garage for proof..


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

LOL, Well I guess I am in good company then....

Being a state worker....I have exercised my rights and taken today off...I get monday too giving myself a 4 day weekend...{Horray!}

More sanding, priming, sanding, painting, {did I forget sanding?}

I am half way in my funding for batteries. I am looking at a may-june time frame. 

The car weight is estimated at 2,500#. My choice for batteries is 130AH CaLibs.

If I band 5 to a unit, they will fit into my under-floor battery boxes nicely and I can delete the rear one, keeping the front rack for an Elcon PFC2500. and maybe later a capacitor pack like this:








Just dreaming....LOL

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Still sanding and painting. I am nearing complete "paint" exhaustion. It looks like this when done. An intentional Satin Dark Green:









My plan is to use plastic strapping to both hold my cells together as well as to secure them in the battery box. I got this nice, rugged strap tensioner/cutter tool from McMaster/Carr for about $60 bucks.










Life is sometimes a big reality check in it's self. Example: It took me a year to save the $7000 for batteries and you know what? The size I want is all sold out at the warehouse. I guess it is really a blessing in disguise. It leaves me more time to sand.......

I did buy a really nice current measuring sensor. A ZEVA unit.

It allows me to use the matching white faced Autometer fuel gauge in the set I already had and as a bonus....the battery cable lines up with the slots already in the box as well as the sensor loop. 

The plastic box came from NAPA. It is a "water resistant" trailer light junction box. 









Question? The sensor came from the guys in Austrailia. (they shipped it really fast) Do I have to mount it upside down to get it to read correctly?

Well, it is getting light here in Az. Gotta go. Sanding to do.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jack Rickard mentioned having a hard time getting the Zeva to work properly, but that may be more related to Jack than the product. (He also claimed his Manzanita charger "never shut off" and was dangerous, not realizing that it was only the fans that keep running after the charging stops.)


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I am not thinking it needs to be inverted. nothing in the pic looks like it is directional sensitive. perhaps invert the car.

ahhh, lithium batteries.....and people wonder why I'm such a lead head.

be careful with the strapper, they can collapse a 2x4 plywood box. How do I know? BTW did you get the strap, crimps, and crimping tool?

Not sure why all the sanding. perhaps you have built a vari-eze?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I like your idea of inverting the car. My neighbor said to hook up the pack backwards...LOL

1. I suck at painting and body work. I need to constantly correct small flaws.
2. I do not have a paint booth and live in a dusty desert area.
3. I have arthritis and can only hold on to the sandpaper/block/sander just so long at a stretch.

Other than that, I'm good-to-go! LOL

I got the strap tension-er and strapping. No buckles necessary. A plain soldering iron with a flat blade to heat them togather.

I hear you on over tightening straps...

Also, My ZEVA is the second generation. It is very different from the first ones. The first one did several functions. This one does one and has only one adjustment.

It needs to be hooked + & -directly to battery to work right. It powers up, THEN you power up the pack and after first full pack charge, it has a reference for "full" tank. Just make sure it is always on or if you cycle the 12VDC power, it references that SOC as "full" tank.

I will report when I get some time on it.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Not sure about the soldering iron method of strap installation, I'd buy/steal a couple of double C clips in addition. I'm guessing you bought plastic strap.

maybe you want to make a small paint booth like they did at EAA chap 1000. Might save poor old Arthur Itis and dem bones.

Phoenix can't be any worse for dust than the mojave desert.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Man, We in the east valley get all of the dust/smoke off the Superstitions and the White Mountain Apache reservation....I actually had a small booth made from PVC/plastic sheeting/AC filters and a fan. It worked well, but was one-use disposable.

This week I am going to do a strap-bond test. I will report on the results.

Miz


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Nice build. On my project I used the PC coolant pump like what you pictured a few pages back. It seemed good and is quiet. but I've not put many miles on it and it's not so hot here.

Am interested how well your trans pump turns out. I may swap my car to an auto. All the people I let drive it can't figure out when to use the clutch. And I'm concerned about overspending the motor down hills. Thinking I'll let my daughter (teen) drive the ev so it's got to be simple.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, Thaniel: I have a widely varied experience in vehicle construction. Racecars, show cars, movie cars, vintage aircraft and a LOT more. I actually like EV's best. 

I know of 3 people using this pump at present. I have used them at work for several years to transfer fuel and oil. They still are working. They can be had in all different pressure ratings. Mine is 140 PSI with a high shut off switch.

AN auto transmission can be really trick if set up right. Just the thing for a teenager.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Thaniel said:


> All the people I let drive it can't figure out when to use the clutch. And I'm concerned about overspending the motor down hills. Thinking I'll let my daughter (teen) drive the ev so it's got to be simple.


sorry, miz, gotta interject: what about a rev limiter? Not that hard to do in one of many ways.

Saw your post and was hungry for my periodic fix of coolness and What?? no update. Man.......


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I believe a rev limiter is native to the Curtis controller. It comes set to 6,000RPM {I think}. 

But, One can be as simple as a screw stop on the throttle pot.

Or I could use the shift light function in my tachometer to trigger anything to stop/ limit the current.

*OK, Update:* {LOL} My batteries are scheduled to be shipped from the CALB warehouse the first week of April. {38-130AHA cells} 
I just ordered an Elcon PFC2500 charger from EVolve in Colorado.

Squirting on the green, which needs to be wet sanded very lightly with 1000 grit then I apply the two satin polyurethane top coats. {Then 1000 again then polishing.}

*Plan: * After receiving the cells, I will check and record the voltages, then align them on the floor and carefully parallel them for 24 hours to equalize the SOC in each. Band them in 5 cell packs using aluminum plates on the ends and poly packing strap material. Install the terminal straps. Put them in the car. I need to cut spruce strips to wedge them in the battery boxes and then use the same poly banding to secure them into the boxes.

My car is not the polite, modern, street automobile everyone else is using. It is a rock solid early FORD platform using two transverse leaf springs. I am paranoid about cell stresses between the blocks of cells , so I will not use the solid straps to connect them. I plan to use those flat, woven straps or just make some from 1/0 cabling.

Hurry, April....

Miz


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> sorry, miz, gotta interject: what about a rev limiter? Not that hard to do in one of many ways.
> 
> Saw your post and was hungry for my periodic fix of coolness and What?? no update. Man.......


Rev limiter can only cut the power. It doesnt apply the brakes. Can easily overspeed when the inertia of the car going down a hill is speeds it up. No compression to slow the acceleration and no screaming engine noises to warn of impending disaster. Also can happen downshifting to the wrong gear. Auto trans will upshift on it's own and save the motor. And no missed down shifts.

(There are virtually no flat roads where I live)


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> *Plan: * After receiving the cells, I will check and record the voltages, then align them on the floor and carefully parallel them for 24 hours to equalize the SOC in each.


With the cells in the middle of their SOC range 24 hours is very unlikely to be enough. If you are going to top balance then charge them up and parallel them at the top. If you are going to bottom balance then discharge them and parallel them at the bottom or at least bring them all to the same resting voltage around 2.7v. If you top balance them it will be easier to check their voltages at the end of charge to see if there are any stinkers in your pack.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Thaniel;290407 No compression to slow the acceleration and no screaming engine noises to warn of impending disaster. Also can happen downshifting to the wrong gear. Auto trans will upshift on it's own and save the motor. And no missed down shifts.
(There are virtually no flat roads where I live)[/QUOTE said:


> actually, running alternator and Ps pump, my lead sled vehicle does not appreciably accelerate at less that 3% slope, and decel will be better with A/c pump going, too. Wrong gear I can't help much, but I also wouldn't bet the farm on the trans protecting the motor either upshift or down. Chances are if the driver is going to do the wrong stuff with the tranny, it won't be downshifting to over-rev but I'm not promoting a manual box.
> 
> FWIW it is a 3% slope out of the house, between 4 and 6% to work for 13 miles. What means this phrase Flat road and where could I find some??


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My take: The AC50/curtis controller system can be set up to give an RPM signal on one of the programmable switches, which can be used to open a relay and interrupt the throttle pot signal to controller, stopping acceleration and putting the controller into regenerative braking mode. (not advocating it, just throwing it out there.)

As to screaming downhill runaways...LOL. ICE cars are prone to that too. It is the connection from the driver's brain to foot that stops this from happening. I would like to believe that an EV driver can do the same thing...

Also, on the issue of my cells and balancing...I skipped a few steps. I didnt feel like listing all of them. It is my opinion (Yours may differ) that the mere act of charging is a lot like top balancing...every cycle an accumulative drift, which would start ruining your careful bottom balance. SO, I oversized my pack 20% in relation to my predicted driving habits which lets me stick to the 2.8V-3.6V region. (Narrower if I have the capacity). 

Paralleling the cells just gives me a sort of equalization, no matter what the actual SOC is when received. The real test is doing a cell to cell voltage test after a month of daily driving. After a typical day of driving, isolate the cells. The next morning-without charging- check cell to cell voltage. Look for the lowest. And always, keep good records. I have a small cell monitoring system to put on the lowest suspected cells to "watch" their performance.

I have a lot of small lithium pack experience. These prismatic sizes are a new thing. But I have confidence that they can be predictable too. 

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> It is my opinion (Yours may differ) that the mere act of charging is a lot like top balancing...every cycle an accumulative drift, which would start ruining your careful bottom balance.


As I'm on my third year of a bottom balanced pack I can say that your opinion does not fit with my reality  I have not found the cells to go noticeably out of balance on their own so far. Recent cell orders have come in more closely matched than my cells, so should be even less of an issue.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> It is my opinion (Yours may differ) that the mere act of charging is a lot like top balancing...every cycle an accumulative drift, which would start ruining your careful bottom balance.


Over what period of time/cycles are you talking about? Several of us on this list have evidence to the contrary, not just an opinion.



> SO, I oversized my pack 20% in relation to my predicted driving habits which lets me stick to the 2.8V-3.6V region. (Narrower if I have the capacity).


That is quite a wide voltage range. If you oversized your by 20% you shouldn't be dropping below 3.0V and more likely 3.2Vocv. At the top end, if you do some testing, you may find that you don't need to charge to such a high voltage. It depends on what ends your charging cycle. If it is voltage only and the current tapers real low you will want to consider charging to a lower ending voltage than 3.6vpc. If the charger charges to 3.6V and cuts off when the current drops to 0.05C then you will be fine.



> Paralleling the cells just gives me a sort of equalization, no matter what the actual SOC is when received.


Agreed. Just don't expect it to do much in 24hours. If your pack is like others' CALB orders they will be quite close in SOC when you get them anyway.



> The real test is doing a cell to cell voltage test after a month of daily driving. After a typical day of driving, isolate the cells. The next morning-without charging- check cell to cell voltage. Look for the lowest. And always, keep good records. I have a small cell monitoring system to put on the lowest suspected cells to "watch" their performance.


I don't know about that being a "real test" since you would be measuring the cell voltage in the middle of the SOC range where the error in SOC vs Voltage is significant. These are LiFePO4 cells not Li-poly cells. Furthermore, if your cell monitoring system uses any power from the cell(s) being monitored it will drift it more and more out of balance with the rest



> I have a lot of small lithium pack experience. These prismatic sizes are a new thing. But I have confidence that they can be predictable too.


If they aren't LiFePO4 cells you will have a little more learning to do. It would be worth your while to play with a cell or two to get a good feel for them. Fortunately they are predictable.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Over what period of time/cycles are you talking about? Several of us on this list have evidence to the contrary, not just an opinion.


Technically, it does this "drift" thing each and every cycle. If you are talking about measure-able results...a year would be my guess.




> That is quite a wide voltage range.


I guess what I am trying to indicate there was that it would allow me to stick to the middle of the usable battery range. So substitute any value here that you consider middle. 




> Just don't expect it to do much in 24hours


I do realize that the closer the SOC to each other, the slower the equalization will be. Just what time reference are you talking about to achieve a fairly complete balance?




> "measuring the cell voltage in the middle of the SOC range where the error in SOC vs Voltage is significant.


Uh? That didnt make sense to me. Did you perhaps mean "not very significant"? Below what SOC would you consider it to get more meaningful?




> If they aren't LiFePO4 cells you will have a little more learning to do.


Yes, they were, but they were the small cylindrical cells, {R/C type usage}




> As I'm on my third year of a bottom balanced pack I can say that your opinion does not fit with my reality


{As my answer above}-Technically, it does this "drift" thing each and every cycle. If you are talking about measure-able results...a year would be my guess.

This was formed from a ton of "internet" reading and various places and various people alluding to these results. With out any real hands on experience or {I would guess} laboratory testing, there is no acceptable empirical data to "back up" my statement, but I did qualify it with " It is my opinion (Yours may differ)", thus was not indicating or stating it to be a solid fact.

So much internet information is accurate to it's own degree. A person must determine for themselves what that degree is. I do my best to indicate what is my experience and what is just deductive guess based on what is read. I really appreciate actual experience and value it more that just opinions.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Uh? That didnt make sense to me. Did you perhaps mean "not very significant"? Below what SOC would you consider it to get more meaningful?


With CALB cells voltage more accurately relates to SOC around 3V and under, and around 3.45V and above. There is no reason to charge to 3.6V as there is almost zero capacity between 3.5V and 3.6V, and we know the cells last longer at lower voltages. At 2.8V you are getting pretty close to empty. I try to operate between 3V and 3.33V resting voltage and usually don't charge above 3.45V.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Thaniel said:


> Rev limiter can only cut the power. It doesnt apply the brakes. Can easily overspeed when the inertia of the car going down a hill is speeds it up. No compression to slow the acceleration and no screaming engine noises to warn of impending disaster. Also can happen downshifting to the wrong gear. Auto trans will upshift on it's own and save the motor. And no missed down shifts.
> 
> (There are virtually no flat roads where I live)


 Hmmm, I've not had this issue at all. The more I release the throttle the more the car slows down due to regenerative braking. I would guess the steepest grade I have gone down is around 7-8%. You set max rpm in the Curtis controller for the AC50 as stated above, and yes mine was set at 6k. I changed it to 7.5k, 8k is the max.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Cool, Then I will operate between 3V and 3.33V resting voltage and don't charge above 3.45V. I need to communicate this to the charger supplier so I can get a curve close to this put into it,

I started playing around with PFC/ATX power supplies lately. But, it is working really nice at 12.32VDC and 70 amps. With my LED and Halogen lights, the voltage is sufficient and lights are bright. It would be a great DC/DC converter at $65.00 USD.

I, too live in "Flat America". No hills if you dont count the freeway on/off ramps. 
Diesel engines have that same down hill, governor over-speed problem and they are driven every day without issue. But, having an AC motor, Regen. braking and common sense, I am not too overmuch concerned with it.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Does the charger you're getting allow programming with multiple curves? That way if you need it sometime you can choose a curve that charges to 3.5 or 3.6 if you think you might need every mile available for a particular trip.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ya an Elcon PFC2500. It should have 10 spots in memory.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> It is my opinion (Yours may differ) that the mere act of charging is a lot like top balancing...every cycle an accumulative drift, which would start ruining your careful bottom balance. SO, I oversized my pack 20% in relation to my predicted driving habits which lets me stick to the 2.8V-3.6V region. (Narrower if I have the capacity).


What do you mean by "the 2.8V-3.6V region"? Is this the total range, from the high point just before the end of charge to the low point at the maximum amp load and minimum SOC? In that case it would be close to what I use.

I'm not seeing any top balancing taking place since I initially top balanced the pack. They are not getting any closer than the quality of my initial balance. I have wondered if such an effect might happen (slowly) when the charging voltage rises above 3.6 volts. Below that point the they seem to have 100% coulombic efficiency. I don't see any self-discharge either.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Technically, it does this "drift" thing each and every cycle. If you are talking about measure-able results...a year would be my guess.


With a pack of all good cells I think it is longer. It took a year with a poorly sealed battery box which let in dust/moisture and then some water dripping on the cells when it rained really bad. Even with all that it took 11 months to see a difference. I'm now only about 7 months into another test with a better enclosed battery box. So far I'm not seeing drift. I'm sure it also has to do with what C rates the batteries experience, depth of discharge, and how high they are charged. I'm charging to 3.465vpc. My Zivan doesn't shut off based on voltage AND current, only voltage and time. With your Elcon you can have it programmed to shut off based on voltage and current. You might have one profile set for 3.5-3.6vpc and end when current drops to 0.05C and another profile for top balancing, if you want to go that route, which charges to 3.6-3.65vpc and tapers the current down below 0.5A for a time. If you charge to 3.45vpc you might want a curve which ends when the current drops to an amp or two and shuts off.



> I do realize that the closer the SOC to each other, the slower the equalization will be. Just what time reference are you talking about to achieve a fairly complete balance?


See my response below.



> Uh? That didnt make sense to me. Did you perhaps mean "not very significant"? Below what SOC would you consider it to get more meaningful?


No, I meant what I said. For a given voltage in the middle, say 20-80%SOC, the voltage changes so little that you can't really know what the SOC of the cell is without knowing the voltage out to the ten-thousandths place, the cell temperature, age, and likely a host of other parameters. Maybe you say that 3.3V is 50% SOC. Maybe it is really 3.2999V and the cell is really at 40%SOC but your equipment isn't that accurate so you don't know. A change in cell temperature and how long it has sat since a load was put on it can throw all that out the window. As for hooking in parallel to balance in the middle of the SOC range, what current will flow between a cell at 3.3000V and 3.2999V? Now apply that to a 100Ah cell and you need 5Ah to flow from one to the other so that they are at the same SOC. Remember that as the cells approach the same voltage the current will diminish toward zero, thus extending the time needed to balance. This is why people either top or bottom balance their pack. Top balance at 3.6-4.0V at very low current and bottom balance between 2.8 and 2.5V open circuit. The two ends of the SOC vs Voltage curve are very steep so a slight difference in SOC produces a large change in voltage, improving the accuracy of the balancing.



> {As my answer above}-Technically, it does this "drift" thing each and every cycle. If you are talking about measure-able results...a year would be my guess.
> 
> This was formed from a ton of "internet" reading and various places and various people alluding to these results. With out any real hands on experience or {I would guess} laboratory testing, there is no acceptable empirical data to "back up" my statement, but I did qualify it with " It is my opinion (Yours may differ)", thus was not indicating or stating it to be a solid fact.


I wasn't implying that you were stating your opinion as fact only that your opinion didn't match my data and that of others.



> So much internet information is accurate to it's own degree. A person must determine for themselves what that degree is. I do my best to indicate what is my experience and what is just deductive guess based on what is read. I really appreciate actual experience and value it more that just opinions.


That is so true. Add to that the fact that there are so many variables which are assumed or ignored that it is difficult to get a solid handle on things. For example, my pack is a 200Ah pack which rarely sees over 2C and never over 2.5C. Also, it rarely gets discharged below 80%. Add to that that I usually charge just before I need it so the pack sits most of its life in a partial SOC state and when I do charge I charge it to 3.465vpc so that after sitting a couple of hours the cells are sitting below 3.4vpc so I know I'm not overcharging them. I'm seeing little if any cell drift which can be attributed to the cells themselves rather than some external influence.

If, on the other hand, I had only a 100Ah pack which saw 2C continuous and up to 5C, was regularly discharged to 80% or below, was charged immediately after use so the pack sat at 100%SOC most of the time, was routinely charged to 3.6V and top balanced on every charge which means low currents at the end of charge, the cells sat above 3.4V after sitting a few hours indicating that they were overcharged then I might be seeing cell drift.

It is this kind of thing which makes it difficult to know how to properly size pack for best economy, let alone how to treat it. I went way over sized for my daily needs but I didn't want to add ballast for stability so I ended up with a 12.8kWh pack in a Gizmo. The consequence of this decision is that the useability of my Gizmo went up so much that have saved over $500/year in fuel costs I would have otherwise spent on fueling up my car. If my pack lasts 10 years it will be paid for in fuel savings alone. This doesn't count the fact that I haven't had to buy 2-3 lead acid packs in the same time period.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

In my battery mounting plan, I will be using the factory supplied bolts, straps with "Nordlock" washers. But as my pack is made up of 5 cells strapped together. I am confident this unit will be stable with in its self but am concerned with them flexing, moving in relation to each other, So I plan to use a braided strap between the 5 cell units.

I found some 2/0 silver plated copper braid at an attractive price and will make my own.









It is robust and nicely done. When molded into a round shape, the end cross section measures 5/8"

More later, work calls....LOL

PS: When buying NORDLOCK washers, they come glued in pairs. When the ad says 50, they really mean 25 as they use 2 per unit. The sellers conveniently omit that fact which is printed on the box. (leading you to think you are getting a good deal) Pageauto1 is the source I used. They think it is fine to list like that...Watch who you buy from.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

UPS...I love you...(sometimes)...









ELCON PFC2500 as unboxed,with misc. stuff included.









Chart of programmed curve with all info. Small Andersen plug for car side. Communication plug with explanation of pin outs and what it is currently doing, what you can make it do.


No explanation necessary, is there?









Mounting location already picked out, but must wait until Saturday, Damn...

Batteries expected in 1-2 weeks. Good timing.

Miz


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> UPS...I love you...(sometimes)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope your dealer had your Elcon 1500 programmed properly for your cells and algorithms that will allow you to include more and less cells. Also should be programmed for less than 15a on 110v.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, Al: Yes, it has provision for different cell counts and it is currently set for 38. 

thx, miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

so estimated ETA is MAYDAY '12?? (one of my all time favorite days, especially to fly)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have finished painting, just needs the final wax applied. Then I can assemble the windshield, Tail lights and remove the two extra battery racks left over from the "floodie" days. Install the Elcon and remove the battery box covers.

I am making the grill today and some paint before mounting. I went with some non-traditional material one would not usually use(22 ga. with thousands of 1/16" punched holes) because it might block too much air flow, but not much air is needed in this installation.









Yes May 1 is about right, but technically it could be 2nd week of April on. {he tries to hide his glee}

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, Whew!

I removed the extra battery racks(both are gone now) and probably over a hundred pounds too. Notice the windshield is in, but not Poly-calked in yet.












Imagine John Q. Citizen sitting at the stop light and looks left to see....this....thing....LOL










I have a hood top piece, but I'm not sure I will use it. It kinda looks good this way.

NOTE: The battery box covers are off for a reason....Soon, I hope!

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

IMHO needs a hood with huge louvers, so you seem to maybe hiding.... ( wait for it ) NOTHING. I like the current look, too, but enjoy messing with people's heads

How are you at making loud engine noises? How about most of one of those big orange block simulators?


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Awesome, Miz, simply awesome! 

Eric


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Opinions wanted: (I am color challenged) I want to make the underfloor battery boxes more hidden. Gray sucks. What do I paint them? Black or green?

Pio: I was thinking I would just put playing cards in the front wheel like kids do their bikes to make noise....LOL

Esoneson: Sincerely, thank you for the kind words. (everyone loves their own child but sometimes fails to recognize glaring faults).


NEXT: mount the Elcon, Calk the windscreen, Find a trunk to mount in the rear between the rollbar and make a spare tire mount for the tail.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

How about the 3 color trunk spray in a dark version? I also like whatever ford uses on their bumpers. (silver argent dark)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am trying to hide the under floor battery boxes.......lol

The streets here are black to a grayish black.

So, flat black would make them fade into the background.i hope.

Btw: we used to call that gray splatter paint...Zola-tone.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> I am trying to hide the under floor battery boxes.......lol
> 
> The streets here are black to a grayish black.
> 
> ...


Hey Miz Nice build... Think rocker panel, to cover up the batt boxes 
painted same color as car...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ivan: good idea. I never gave a panel cover any thought.

That will clean it up a bit.

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It looks fantastic!

What you could do is have one of these sitting on top of the motor, and no hood. That'll make people look twice!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I actually know where a fiberglass chrysler hemi is...LOL

Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

My Buggy detail work is based on the philosophy that if you paint it satin black it will kinda disappear. It will be pretty easy to touch up if needed. If you paint it flat black it will be more difficult to clean, so I avoid it. My general choice is Rustoleum 7777 satin black spray paint.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

did I start something here?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

LOL, Ideas are good. When it comes to mechanical or Fab, I can keep up with the best, but when it comes to color or abstract or texture, I am really lacking.

After looking and dreaming, I will try to make a cover panel and paint it satin black with Polyurethane satin over it. I am not afraid to re-do stuff, after all, I started this car back in 2006....or so.

Miz

PS: I tried the Heat sealing on the poly banding strap. It takes a little trial to get the heat just right, but it holds well. I tension it, warm up the tool I made, hold it between the straps for 1 second then pull it out while squeezing them together with two gloved fingers. It is really-really solid. The part I like is that there is no metal buckle or clasp to wear against the plastic battery case. If you want to be sure it holds, you can even spot weld it next to the first one, easily.

Instead of just 1/8" aluminum plates on the ends, I am wondering if I need to put .095" plates between cells too, to stop inter-cell warping?
(Also maybe some heat sink action too?)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unless you are doing something wrong to your cells they really should not be swelling, or need cooling.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

What started it all, was Rikards...LOL He put plates between his pouch cells.

It just made me over think the situation.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A123 and LG Chem use plates between their pouch cells for heat transfer, but those are thin cells. I don't think there would be any point with the large bricks we use. I think Jack has given up on using plates and is just casting the pouch cells into large bricks, like the prismatics, or laying them out flat in his "flatinum" series. Not sure how either is going to work out.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Jack just likes to throw lots of metal or resin in and around the cells so he can gloat about how the energy density isn't very good. He goes out of his way to do some really weird stuff.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Long weekend coming up. Today is my last work day....HOOYAH! 

My DC/DC is scheduled to arrive Friday, so I can get that installed. The ELCON needs installed, the windshield needs polyurethane adhesived in place. 

The tail lights re-installed after painting. 

Plus those elusive side trim panels need making.

A good time will be had (I hope....)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

A good day today.. I got the Elcon mounted and wired up.











And also the new 40 Amp Dc/Dc converter.










More tomorrow if I am lucky...

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just a teaser...I was trying for that 1940 ish dirt track look.









I am basically waiting for batteries. It seems that the CALB 130AHA size is out of stock at present. But, I am on the list and they will be worth the wait.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I guess that may blow the Mayday date to smoke?? Of course I didn't specify what year/century/epoch.

Didn't know it was a boat tail. way cool. Like the 'caps too, but now it needs whitewalls.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I really like how it looks! I didn't know it was a boat tail either.

The battery boxes are barely noticeable.


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Just a thought, to hide the battery boxes maybe try a shadowing affect to make it blend in to either the car or the asphalt. 

I'm no paint or body guy, but it sounds good in theory. 

A good tattoo artist could do what you need.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

In case some of you were wondering about my cars early days"
When we were "Back on the farm". (Look carefully at the 65 Shelby under the tarp)...LOL
I,m a FORD guy. My daily driver is a 99 Lightning.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

shelby GT 300? not a really good tarp pic.

Gila bend?

suspension look a wee bit stiff on the early version.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Still got the Mustang. It is just in a 53' sea container.

Yah, the suspension was a stock sedan 11 leaf rear spring and a 7 leaf front. I thought it would be OK for 20 FLA batteries. Now with the 38 CALB cells, it is going to need some "de-leafing" at some point.

It is hard to see, but it has a rear anti-sway bar and the front needs none due to the way the front wish bone was split. It causes the front axle to be it's own sway bar. The result is nice because it is stable and does not just roll over when the passenger or driver gets into the seat like most parallel elliptic sprung cars do.

The pic was in south Chandler. I have since moved to The East Valley-Power & San Tan Blvd.


Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

*IS it done yet??* tired of holding my breath.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, Piotr: 

No....Sorry man. I feel bad because the one unexpected thing has happened. 

No CALB 130 AH cells in the USA. (Apparently some other sizes as well.)

I have been trying to buy them for 5 weeks. They fit my battery boxes so well, too. Lately I have been looking for alternatives in case this drought goes on...
But I had my heart set on CALB's.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did Calib Power say when they might restock? Can you use 100's, and do they have those?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Look at microstupid and their vaporware. At least you are in good company. I believe it is Dimitri that says the quote about liars, damn liars and battery manufacturers.

and people wonder why I have FLA.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I, for one, completely understand people who still use FLA batteries. Theirs is the choice of FLA or no electric car. My last two cars had FLA batteries.

This one was designed and built for them, too. I just unexpectedly sold some property and could lay my hands on some extra funds, so I took the leap. 

In this case, my timing was poor and I hit on the time of year when the entire USA is in resupply mode...LOL

Yes, 80ah would actually cover my driving needs, but I go by the Lithium rule "Get as much as you can afford".

I have not had any communication with Keegan, but I understand through another channel that a shipment is due May 15th or so. I will keep hanging on. (at least that long)

After measuring and emailing, I found out I can put 160AH of A123 pouches in the same place, for the same cost. So that plan is waiting in case.....

I promise to post any progress. Really...

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry to all. Still awaiting batteries. Doing little stuff (Trim, touch-up, rerouting wiring, ETC)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I don't want to give anyone false hopes, but UPS truck freight sez I have a pallet of 440 lbs on their dock and would I come get it, it is in the way.....

They open at 9am. So I might have to take a vacation day........

Details tomorrow (with pics to prove I am not delusional).

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

WHOOHOO Xmas early. 

BTW please be really careful with your new toys. I seem to be making periodic plasma balls with my multimeter leads, Traditional HV caution seems to not be fully functional or irrationally absent.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah, I hear that....The "Plasma Boy" story still rings in my head.


The CALB pack of 38/130AH cells were a choice of convenience. 

If I was not so lazy, I could have bought A123 cells. 

8 parallel, 38 series packs would have fit nicely too. AND gotten me 160AH worth of cells for the same price....

And as a side benefit, if one pouch went bad, I would have only lost 20AH, and the car would have still driven, not stopped.

It could have also been repairable at my leisure for $25.00 USD......

Something to think about for future Lithium purchases.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> And as a side benefit, if one pouch went bad, I would have only lost 20AH, and the car would have still driven, not stopped.


Actually we've heard reports of A123 pouches going bad and draining the other pouches connected in parallel. On the other hand I have yet to hear of a CALB cells just failing without some sort of "user input".


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Either way, if you bring a wrench and an appropriately sized cable to remove the bad cell from the string and bypass it, you'll still be moving. You'll have about 97% of the range you otherwise would have but I'm certain you wouldn't be running it that low anyway, especially if you knew it was missing.

If you think about it though 140Ah versus 160Ah on a full pack basis is 87.5% so you'd still want to consider bypassing that parallel cell group.

Also don't forget, the 'AMP20' cells aren't quite 20Ah and often aren't unheard of in the 18 or 19Ah range and CALB cells have been delivering more than their Ah rating. Stuff to consider when designing a pack.

I thought of gambling with multiple 28s3p modules(and a few 7s3p modules) but decided against it because CALB cells will fit tighter and in the shape I need to build them into and will be easier to swap out. Single cells, like you said do involve some building, and IMHO a bit of risk with so many connections and flexpoints.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Well, where are the latest pictures of the new toys??


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry, I been busy....LOL

At the freight dock...Two wooden crates of 16 and one smaller cardboard box of 6.










Unpacked and in order by serial number.












Up close. Showing that one terminal aluminum and one of copper. Both have aluminum top nuts. the aluminum posts are positive, copper negative.










They are serial numbered sequentially, all in a row. The inspection sheet stated the SN-voltage-resistence. The voltages were not as inspected. 7 were spot on, the rest were 1/100th volt under or 2/100ths volt over. (all between 3.308 volts and 3.312 volts) Data sheet said made in April, 2012. 

They were slightly over their advertised size...I need to do some battery box rethinking now. (1/4" too big)

But I always liked a challenge (or I never would have built an EV...LOL)

Miz

P.S.: Anyone thinking of buying batteries, do so now. Shipments are quite irregular.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What was the range of resistance numbers and capacities on the data sheets?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Oops, sry:

AH range was 138.6-145.5. Most were in the 140-144 range.

Resistance Range was .32 - .69. Most were in the. .44- .54 range.



Overall average would look like:0.49, 3.310 volts- 144.6 ah

I want to amend my above post.....the serial numbers were not sequential, the bar codes were.
One had a 7 digit SN and several others had a 10 digit number, leading me to think it was a scraped togather batch, or a repaired cell.




Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hmm, the capacity and resistance spread are larger than my set from three years ago, significantly so with the resistance. That is disappointing. 
Looking at my data sheet my cells were all between .28 and .35 resistance, and 110-114 ah capacity, 100ah cells obviously. Some of yours have double the resistance of others, which may make keeping them balanced a bit of a challenge.

As for the speculation of a repaired cell, I doubt there is any way to repair a cell in a reasonable manner. You'd have to cut apart the case, unbolt all the internal layers to test each individually and find the bad ones, replace them, and put it all back together in a new case. It would be cheaper to just scrap it and make a new one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since I have the data sheet from the entire shipment of batteries I can see that larger capacity cells have lower resistance numbers than smaller cells.
180's range from .21 to .26 for example, so I'd expect your 130ah cells to have lower resistance than my 100's.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

A couple of the cells have a rather sloppy glued seam around the top. That and the WIDE serial number spread is the reason for my "repair" speculation.

The inventory card had an April 2012 manufacture date....the cells were supposed to have been made and "stuck" in Chinese Customs already by then.....a lot of things dont add up...but i hope the future performance eases my uneasy feeling.

At this point it makes A123cells look better and better.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

You do realize that the chinese are fond of "fortunate" DEALS ( for the chinese at least; to the sad expense of round eyed devils)? Be glad you aren't Ethiopian.

At this stage I can merely suggest that you group them by similar characteristics.

Get to whacking on them, you got a 3 day coming up, before it gets too hot to drive it.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> You do realize that the chinese are fond of "fortunate" DEALS ( for the chinese at least; to the sad expense of round eyed devils)? Be glad you aren't Ethiopian.
> 
> At this stage I can merely suggest that you group them by similar characteristics.
> 
> Get to whacking on them, you got a 3 day coming up, before it gets too hot to drive it.


 Yeah, all those Chinese are the same, just like all those round eyed devils are the same.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> A couple of the cells have a rather sloppy glued seam around the top. That and the WIDE serial number spread is the reason for my "repair" speculation.


I observe the same in the box I got today. Also surprised by the shoddy packing.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

most of the base packing was dust....One nail from the skids was pushed up and touching a cell too.

I guess I will set up and monitor the highest resistance cell during use. That and for the rest of this year, do a cell voltage check monthly after use/before charging to see how badly they are going to drift.


What date was on the small card inside the boxes...like mine 201204
(2012) april

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I observe the same in the box I got today. Also surprised by the shoddy packing.


What was your capacity and resistance spread? How many cells total?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

16 40 AH cells

Crate lid was held on by tape, the 40 nails in it weren't really holding anything. Multiple nails protruding in middle among cells. Flopping around on 1 side. If I didn't know better I'd swear they were opened in customs and repacked by a govie.

For those on the sheet:
IR of .57 - .80 avg .69
Capacity of 41.0-43.2 avg 41.9

Two are not on the sheet; some battery numbers are within 100 but overall they seem to come from several generations

Tag says 201204...I wonder who I could contact to offer english translation services for the manual...in exchange for cells


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems as if things are really slipping at CALB. Even my crates were better three years ago


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Looks to me that the crate could have been dropped. I used to fly international freight and often cringed how forklift drivers handled the freight - one dropped a whole pallet of Dana differentials and I heard/watched them go "pinging" down the concrete ramp.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, back to the car:

I did what most everyone here on the forum said would not work, I tied my 38 cell string in parallel. I left it for a week. Now, one day after I disconnected them, they all are still sitting at 3.310 volts. Not a big deal but they were all between 3.308 volts and 3.312 volts before.

Now I know this is not cell balancing as traditionally done, but I am working on my own theory of battery management. If it costs me cells, then so be it.

Next, I install them into the car in series and charge them. I have a programmable digital meter with A & B relays that operate at voltages set by user. This will be monitoring the cell with the most resistance. It is set to stop the charger if this cell goes up above 3.65 or the controller if it goes below 2.95 volts. Plus I will be doing monthly manual cell voltage checks to watch battery "migration" and can change which cell I am monitoring if needed.

Once again we are at this special weekend where we honor the ones that protect our freedoms and help preserve this way of life we so dearly love. Every now and then, give them a thought. Their view of the world is not so polite. Bless and protect them all.

Have a good weekend, Miz


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> OK, back to the car:
> 
> Once again we are at this special weekend where we honor the ones that protect our freedoms and help preserve this way of life we so dearly love. Every now and then, give them a thought. Their view of the world is not so polite. Bless and protect them all.
> 
> Have a good weekend, Miz


Nice thought, I second that emotion.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I did what most everyone here on the forum said would not work, I tied my 38 cell string in parallel. I left it for a week. Now, one day after I disconnected them, they all are still sitting at 3.310 volts. Not a big deal but they were all between 3.308 volts and 3.312 volts before.
> 
> Now I know this is not cell balancing as traditionally done, but I am working on my own theory of battery management. If it costs me cells, then so be it.


You "middle balanced" them, sort of. As long as you can finish charging without any one cell running away and as long as you never discharge deeply enough to drive one cell to zero you'll probably be fine. Obviously you should do a test and see how they behave on a deep discharge and a full charge, it's only at the ends that the balance issues show up.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> You "middle balanced" them, sort of.


I agree. I'm no expert but if you have a charger that can do it I would take the whole parallel pack up to 3.6 (or less if it's a slow charge) to try and get them to rest close to 3.4 all together.

I've heard they ship them at 50 or 60% charged, so if they come at 3.3 you're middle balancing them and will gain no benefit at either the top or the bottom. They'll be all over the place at the end of charge or discharge and you'll have to closely monitor them all at least long enough to know which ones are the highs/lows and then always monitor those ones to know when to stop.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's not really practical or necessary. 38 130ah cells in parallel is a 4940ah cell! Just watch them closely as you charge them the first time and see how they behave. Or do the same on discharge if you are bottom balancing.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

LOL, I knew this one would draw a reply or two...

*Mizlplix's theory #1* states "It is better to start charging with all cells close togather than spread all over the place."

(Yes, possibly no help at all, but it was free.) : )

I did make some progress today in the art of cell packaging.








Five cells strapped into one unit. I used a standard tensioning tool, but couldnt use metal buckles because they would have been trapped between the cell units, ruining the stack compactness and eventually rubbing a hole.


What I did, after experimenting, was to simply tension, apply a drop of glue from a "hot" gun, then squeeze the spot with pliers until cool. Trim excess, do three times per band splice.








The splices fold neatly into the cell grooves.

Any shorter than a 5 cell unit will be problematic, as the tool thickness holds the band up and when the tool is removed, the band gets some slack.

4 cells is too short and the bands are loose. 5 cells remain tight. Further experimentation is indicated.









Here is a 5S brick ready to install in the car.

BTW: when my cells are set side by side, they are slightly convex......there is a gap top and bottom which can be pressed together by hand and really look good when done this way.

More tomorrow. Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

They look great. I guess I should check HF to see what they have before I cargo strap mine.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

And yet, more progress:









Strapped, bus bars, in the box and strapped down. With the intended space at the front and rear of the box for air in/air out. That is why I chose CALBs. They were the only ones with this size cells. They fit so nicely.


BTW: I was not aware that my cells, end to end, are a different post spacing than side by side.








The regular straps do not fit....Grrrrrr!

(Note to self. when I start designing cells, make sure the same straps will fit in any orientation.)


So, I made some from silver plated 2/0 flat braid.








They have 5/8" copper tubing sleeves on the ends, pressed flat (in a vice), then soldered solid before drilling. They are insulated by 3 layers of silicone self fusing wrap.

Taking a short break, so I thought I'd post this.

I took my son and grandson to the rifle range yesterday. We are going to the movie "Battleship" tomorrow. It makes a great Memorial weekend.

Kind wishes to all: Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yup, different end-end vs side to side spacing seems to be a manufacturing lack of forethought. With the small cells it's only 1/8" different. I was supposed to get mostly 60 AH connectors to use side to side but they sent just 40s.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I must amend my above statement, I can band 4 cells. AND I learned a new trick.

When banding, do not route the band through the cutter section of the tool.
It raises the band 1/4" extra when it goes through the cutter.

Run the band under the cutter with the rest of the wrap. Tension it, then glue the tail overlap. Carefully remove the tool and hand cut the top band. Leave it 4" or so longer and glue it too.

It makes super strong splices that way, as they are 6" long instead of 2".

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, it is back to my regular work....These 4 day weeks are a killer..LOL

I am changing the right battery box side material to give me the 1/4" more I need due to the cells being bigger than advertised...Grrrr!

So, I will be ready to install the right side cells this weekend. Maybe I will get to power up the controller and check the programming. Somehow, I think it is not programmed for the FP-6 I am using and I might have to reset it. 

Anyhoo- I am getting close.

Stay tuned!

Miz


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> LOL, I knew this one would draw a reply or two...
> 
> *Mizlplix's theory #1* states "It is better to start charging with all cells close togather than spread all over the place."
> 
> ...


I ground the side of my cells away a tiny bit to make the straps fit with the metal buckle:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/12/plug-bug-strapping-thundersky-batteries-together/

corbin


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Your Idea is great too Corbin, I think that Miz did not want the metal buckle to touch the cells. 

Even in your strapping methods there is a chance of the buckle vibrating against the cells.

Even though the buckles are smooth they will still rub. example smooth water running over rocks wears them down over time. 

Just an opinion from a Grunt.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Happy Memorial Day, Grunt!

I guess I,m a chicken when it comes to grinding any on $200/ea cells...LOL

Yes, I will admit that buckles will hold until they rust away, my way is untested in the long haul.(But I have faith)

I did get my last battery box piece cut today. (remember the cells were too thick)

I have polyurethane coated it and can install and caulk it tonight, so I can re-coat the inside of the box with the grey/rubberized stuff I used before.

Schedule calls for the batteries to be all in by Saturday, hooked up and hot by Sunday.

(Who the hell needs Viagra?)

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Well done and about time. Just missed the ETA by a month but who's to notice.

report while hot rodding please, as I am interested if the lipo fiasco's are worth it. BTW not about energy levels and associated costs, I wanna know if as a ex-confirmed lead user, your valued opinions on the whole picture.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Will do. I am very interested in the difference too. 

Looks like I can power up on Sunday. If things go well, I will then get into the controller and change two things stopping me from that first drive.

Just 8-10 hours work till then.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Did I say power up on sunday? I must have been dreaming.

Today, I got all cells banded together except the last 5. The weather got too hot for the hot glue to hold (and the wife refused to let them in the house.)

OK, still, I got all cells (but 5) in the car racks (It took two car screw jacks to ease the boxes open to allow them to slide in). They are banded still once again after being placed into the boxes. Lets just say, they will be supported adequately......

The 6 inter-connecting braided jumpers got made and installed as well as the pack negative cable to the controller.

Maybe later tonite I can sneak out to make the cross over cables at the rear of the two battery boxes and mount the inter box disconnect switch.
(If I'm feeling dangerous that is)

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Maybe later tonite I can sneak out to make the cross over cables at the rear of the two battery boxes and mount the inter box disconnect switch.
> (If I'm feeling dangerous that is)
> 
> Miz


Don't worry, if you mess up you'll have plenty of light.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Light and heat, maybe even some free smoke to keep the bugs away! I have been looking forward to the sunday deadline as well. Your results with that powerglide may have a drastic influence on my next ev move. Glad to see it so close.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have had a "family" deal dropped on me at the last moment for tomorrow, but I am still going to sneak in some work.

After placing jack stands under the rear axle, (LOL), I then can connect the last cable, tomorrow. I want to try to run the motor/transmission a little. Then scan the controller settings for Ivansgarage to compare with his.

I have this funny feeling that my motor will not run the first time. I think it has the wrong pot 1 setting in the controller. 

The guy I bought it from did some "custom" tweaks to it (all good ones). I just have this feeling he cloned it to his controller on his bug. If so, my pot is different. No problems either way. Just a small delay.

I also wanted to change the throttle/off regen to regen with a proportionate signal as I have a second PB6 hooked into the system (added pins) to regulate regen.

More tomorrow,

Miz


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> Well done and about time. Just missed the ETA by a month but who's to notice.
> 
> report while hot rodding please, as I am interested if the lipo fiasco's are worth it. BTW not about energy levels and associated costs, I wanna know if as a ex-confirmed lead user, your valued opinions on the whole picture.


Aw come on piot, gotti is probably the most strident promoter of lithium on here and he used lead acid prior to using lithium. Dt baker is probably one of the best test cases since he drove the same car with lead acid for a couple years before converting it to lithium and then proclaiming what a great difference lithium made in it's performance, and now advising people to use lithium. Lots of others have reported similar. What you want is a former lead acid user now using lithium who will give you the opinion you are looking for: that it isn't worth it, and that they are oh so much trouble.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The sheer volume of people choosing lithium over lead is a pretty good indicator that it's worth it. At this point I'd say that lead is not worth it's true costs for most vehicles.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Please don't let Miz's thread become yet another lithium vs lead debate!  He's almost there, and the attention should be on that, and how much he loves it after that first drive. I hope the moderators are monitoring this and ready to cut and splice.

Nothing personal against you guys, it's just that this usually turns into pages of off-topic debate about the same old subjects. I actually read them and learn from them, but really want to see how this old hot rod turns out here.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hey, everyone:

Bad news...I got all done except for three (3) cables...Aint life a bitch.

My arthritis got pretty bad, so I had to close up and go inside. 

I was struggling to do those three cables and I realized, I could not leave it at that. Next was run the motor. Then get into the controller, then maybe a short run down the street.................

That stuff is for 20 year olds. So,after 8 hours at it, I took (what I keep telling myself) the smart path. Save it for another day.

That 12 VDC FLA battery for the accessories just keeps bothering me. I need to get rid of it too. I have a Meanwell 40 amp DC/DC converter to run things, but I wanted to have a battery in the circuit. 

Do you think a small 40AH pack of Headways could replace that messy FLA battery?

I have the trans pump at---7 amps, 
the headlights at ---20 amps,
the coolant pumps at ---10 amps
Not much else.

Thx, Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Note: I never said which Sunday. You got 20+ more this year including family allocated ones. Apparently, you are way smarter than me, possibly that is why I have these issues with VOM meter probe welding late at night. Arthur Ritus is a friend of mine, too.

I ain't starting a lead lithium war here, but everybody else lithium seems to want one. Miz has done a couple of lead conversions, and I TRULY value HIS opinions and observations on systems. I believe he understood the request I had made and think they would be fitting to these series of posts.

40 ah using the mean well for recharge? I'm thinking that you at least want the same acessory run time as the main pack plus perhaps 10%.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I haven’t been bothered with any joint problems so far but eight to ten solid hours in the garage still kicks my butt for a day or two after. As for lead batteries vs. Lithium the later wins hands down in most every way. I might qualify as the longest lead user. While I have had no real problems with the batteries I have been using Lithium is on my bucket list. Twenty amps for headlights? Isn’t it more like 55 amps per? Are you using LED for dash, breaks and running lights? I got everything except headlights LED and it made a big difference. About 5 amps less overall.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Do you think a small 40AH pack of Headways could replace that messy FLA battery?
> 
> I have the trans pump at---7 amps,
> the headlights at ---20 amps,
> ...


40ah of Headways sounds like way more than enough, unless you want more backup in case the DC fails. I've been using an old AGM 19ah battery from a jetski. I'm actually thinking of just trying 4 Headways in series. You don't want to float charge the lithiums though so you'll have to keep the Meanwell under 13.5V or so to make sure they don't over charge.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well....I already have a pack of 4 headways, 10AH. in series. I might as well stick them into the car. Then I'll be lead free.

Yes, I was wondering about the voltage to set it at. I was thinking 13.2 or so.

Only two pumps are really necessary. the other two are experimental and might be eliminated. 


Yes, I carefully bought LED lights for everything, except the headlights and they are small Halogen bulbs....So I am a little hazy about the draw with them. Although my truck has similar headlight bulbs and has a 30 amp fuze in the circuit. My headlight circuit has a 30 amp breaker that runs it OK. So, I guessed at it being a little less draw than that.

The headlights will only run going to work, (25 minutes). Going home is daylight.

The DC/DC is 40 amps continuous, plus the 10AH headway pack should do me, It will be a close thing I feel.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Light bulbs are rated in watts, not amps - that 55w is not what it will draw. If I'm thinking correctly, divide that by the voltage to get the actual amperage draw (v x a = w). There's probably a bigger current draw to light the bulb up, than what's required to keep it lit - hence the big relays. Some of the more techie types can correct/elaborate as necessary.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, the initial draw will be higher as the fillament warms up. 

The best way to know everything of course is to hook up your shunt to the 12V and test each item separately plus all together. That was the first thing I did when I got my JLD. I was shocked at how low the headlight draw was, and the contactor was higher than I expected.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Well....I already have a pack of 4 headways, 10AH. in series. I might as well stick them into the car. Then I'll be lead free.


To be sure there is no confusion, that's a 10Ah battery you are creating, not 40Ah. Same thing I'm planning.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Correct, series multiplies voltage

Parallel multiplies amperage


Mid range charged headways are about 3.3VDC. x. 4 = 13.2 VDC

A good setting for the DC/DC converter. Plus anytime it is running, there would be some loads on it.

BTW: I am making some progress. I sneak in some time at work during breaks to make my last cables. They are pretty straight forward with no surprises. I need to mount the seat frame with seats next. The battery boxes are still accessible, so no problems there. 

The DC/DC wiring is not totally finished as is that pesky left/front headlight. (I'm having wire routing concerns as my brake tubing runs where I have drilled into the frame on the right side and I wanted the frame to look symmetrical.) Speedo and Tach need final hook-ups, as well as the ZEVA loop also the Spoofer board for charging through a J1772 plug and it's attendant circuit through the Elcon charger.

None of which will stop a short first "drive". 


Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

TODAY:

MAde the two inter-pack cables. One from pack 1 to the disconnect switch, the other from switch to pack 2.

Found out my remnant was 12" too short to make my last cable.(pack + to the main disconnect). Need to buy more.

Cell voltages were 3.310 each X 38 cells = 125.78 theoretical
Measured pack voltage (series) ATM is 125.40 
Down by .38 volts.....interesting....But not surprising because of the number of connections and metals. 

More tomorrow.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Popcorn and Pepsi in hand! 

Come on admins, we need a popcorn emoticon here...


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)




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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You all will be the death of me....LOL

Remember, I also promised a" first drive out" video....

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Woohooooo!!!!!!!*

(So, I played hooky from work today. I couldnt stand it any longer.)

If driving on jack stands counts, everything works perfectly!

Powered up the pack, ignition on, Shifter in low. Stepped on the brake for 3 seconds to prime the transmission...pressed gently on the go-pedal and it took right off.(In the right direction too)

Shifted to high-OK
Stopped and tried reverse-OK

Damn! (is it too early to drink a beer?)

It was a very good feeling after almost 7 years in total, 13 months for the EV conversion.

Wish you all were here.

Now I need to do all the neglected things, tach, speedo, 1 headlight, seat frame, trunk, spare tire mount, ETC.

(and some more pics)

YaHoo!

Miz


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Mizlplix,

HAPPY EV GRIN DAY

It is a wonderful feeling isn't it. Congratulation on winning THIS battle now on to winning the war.

As you might know I am also a powerslide nut, but one without the requisite physical abilities to build a full size EV. So I have been following your thread as you make the trip to EV grin day.

Looking for photos and a first drive video.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a great milestone, mizlplix, congratulations. Essentially it all works and runs fine, just needs a few random things to get it legal and comfortable to sit in/on.

Also looking forward to the pics and video.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Someday I'll get to those comfort/cosmetic things...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats Miz!


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

Pics or it didn't happen. 

Congrats. It's a great feeling. I'm jealous as it will be years before I get to build another ev.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Woohooooo!!!!!!!*



mizlplix said:


> Now I need to do all the neglected things, ....


getting it down off the jack stands... Congrats!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The journey continues...

OK, I'm a liar...It does throw a code. 43...

The throttle is limited too. I finally got around to pressing a little harder and the wheels stay at about 10 MPH. And I noticed the blinking.

1-red/4-yellows, 2-reds/3-yellows. 


anyone know where I can get the error code list?

Miz


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> The journey continues...
> 
> OK, I'm a liar...It does throw a code. 43...
> 
> ...


According to the 1238 Manual I have: Bit6 = Brake Wiper High (Code 43)

Example: Battery Undervoltage (code 23). 
In the Fault menu of the 1311 programmer, the words 
Undervoltage Cutback will be displayed; the real-time battery voltage 
is displayed in the Monitor menu (“Keyswitch Voltage”). 
The controller’s two LEDs will display this repeating pattern: 
RED YELLOW RED YELLOW 
✱ ✲ ✲ ✱ ✱ ✲ ✲ ✲ 
(ﬁrst digit) (2) (second digit) (3) 

Code (43) Brake Wiper High "FullBrake". 
1. Brake pot wiper voltage too high. 
2. See 1311 menu Monitor » Inputs: Brake Pot. 
Set: Brake pot wiper (pin 17) voltage 
is higher than the high fault threshold 
(can be changed with the VCL function 
Setup_Pot_Faults()). 
Clear: Bring brake pot wiper voltage 
below the fault threshold. 

I think I downloaded the manual pdf from Thunderstuck.com, but I'm not sure. If you can't find it, PM me your email and I'll send you the pdf.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I finally got to settle a year old question for everyone. I got my"bodged" together data link and "internet" software to communicate with the Curtis 1238-1701 controller.


This story goes back 13 months....

I was on the Buggysgonewild.com web site and there was a thread about reprogramming a Curtis controller. That site has a thread about modding the Curtis controller to give a golf cart some more acceleration and speed. They were trying to work out the elements necessary to acheeve this task.

Fifty six pages later, they were still arguing and not really getting any concrete results. So, I dutifully copied every diagram they printed. Noted every fact that seemed to be verified.

1. The cable to the 840 spyglass is serial.
2. Curtis uses no common language to communicate, their software is needed.
3. That software was available (for a short time) from a medical company in France. They posted it to their web site for repairing/adjusting wheelchairs.

Way back then, I went to that site and Yes, it was there and Yes, I did get a copy. It is the same software they sell now, except for the newest has been updated to include communication protocols for a USB connection. 

I have an old lap top that runs XP. It has a serial port. I bought a ATX-motherboard power "Y" cable from NewEgg ($6.00) and switched 3 wires, to get my plug-in access port. It uses a MOLDEX 8 pin connector.








Athena YEPS828 cable http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812198019&Tpk=athena yeps828

It is true serial to serial, no TTL or opto couplers required.

The Curtis TX goes to the serial RX
The Curtis RX goes to the serial TX
The ground to the ground
The 12DC power is not hooked up. (DO NOT!)

You can merely get a serial cable and cut off one end. Splice the wires in permanently tothe supplied harness and have an on board cable always ready ...OR just put a serial port in your car's dash board.

Be sure to unplug your battery charger during programming sessions.

Lastly, Most importantly....Power up the car, key on, pack on just like you are going to hit the throttle and go...THEN boot the computer. It will communicate. Anything else will not work. I tried literally everything to verify this.

The later USB type might be hot plugable, this one is not.

Thats it!

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sounds cool. So what's the result? What parameters can be tweaked by reprogramming, and what boost in performance is available?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

This is an O.E.M. level program. EVERYTHING can be changed. (even things you dont want to mess with)

The most common is to change the RPM Max from 6500 to 8500

The type of throttle you used- 0-5 volts or 5-0 volts
0-5K ohms or 5K to 0 ohms
Halls effect
The pack size in your car

The type of regen, throttle off or pot controlled AND percentage of max regen.

Acceleration/deceleration rates

50+ pages of parameters.....Most are greek to me.

But, when you have an error code, you can go in and tweak or read further in depth to get at the problem.

There are some user defined switches triggered by RPM that can be set...Usefull things.

When the motor or controller temp alarm sounds.

So many I forget them all.

A must for really customizing your vehicle as everyones is different.

Earlier, a forum member made up some cables and burned some CD's and was selling them for $50/per. That was a decent deal and just covered his labor and troubles. BUT, Another member was buying them at $50 and reselling them at $200. That was just plain wrong and greedy. 

Anyone needing this software, PM me and I will tell you how to get it.

(a happy) Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sounds like weeks of hacker fun!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today, boys and girls, we get a controller education...

I spent 3 hours going cross-eyed, , but learned something....

Curtis is not as dumb as they seem.

If I ever got this car into earth orbit, they have a parameter for that too.

I do have two issues:

1. In the drivers menu, fault check, why is my PWM freq. set at 200?
When the controller will do 300....

2. (Under) program, 2torque mode, speed limiter, max speed, 8,000. I keep getting a warning window: error w0048, parameter out of range.

This happened the first time I opened it up and happens even if I set it to a small value. It then resets it to 8,000 again.

And my controller error code of 43- brake wiper signal too high. Even though nothing is hooked up there.

Help?


Only one pic today,








The completed left pack, ready for the top cover.

Miz


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Maybe I missed it but why such a low rear gear set?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am running a 32" diameter tire. That and low gear is only 1.74:1 ratio.

Also the AC50 has a 6500 rpm red line. That gets me 40 in low and 90 in high gear.

Basically a city gear And an expressway gear.

The rear gear makes everything work. 

Miz


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

Dustin_mud said:


> Maybe I missed it but why such a low rear gear set?


 
If you go to page 5 of this thread you can read why he is using the larger gears in the car. 

He will get 40 mph in low and 90mph in high gear.....


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

Miz,

In that last pic, I didn't see any BMS modules. Are you using something different or not using a BMS at all?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am using what I call a "semi automatic" BMS.

I monitor the cells before installation, after charging and for the first month on a semi-weekly basis. I Have installed a monitor to watch the cell voltage and stop the charger if it exceeds 3.45 volts per cell OR cut out the controller if the cell voltage drops below 2.9 volts while driving. 

Catch-22: It monitors only one cell. That is the one I pick as my most problematic. 

I started out with it watching the cell that had the most resistence as recorded on the delivery sheets. I am recording on a frequent basis, cell voltages after a days driving/before charging, to see the one with the lowest voltage. I am also watching cell voltage after charging for the highest voltage cell. 

My monitored cell is the one that has the widest voltage range. I can change the cell to be monitored by only changing 2 wires around.

The other half of my "system" is to keep the cells between 3.0 and 3.4 volts (their useful range), and to stay out of the extremes at both ends where the bulk of the damage happens.

(DO NOT do this because I am doing it. It is just a theory at this point and not proven to be accurate or of any actual help protecting your cells.)

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably not a good idea to disable the controller while you're driving, if that's how you have it set. You might be in a situation where it's more important to "GO" than keep your cells above 2.9V, and going below 2.9V under load won't hurt your cells anyway. I've taken my pack down to 1.77V under load, no noticeable effects. I'm bottom balanced of course so all cells hit the same level together.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Make sure that your monitoring of that one cell does not actually draw any current out of that cell. If it does that cell will go out of balance with the rest.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am actually trying to set the controller to derate to 50% when the voltage drops under 3 per cell. That is done in the VCL section on one of the external switches.

A simple red LED would be good too.

Most late vehicles are set up to shut down to protect the motor in case of a fatal error message. School buses are set to restart and run again to permit removal from the roadway, but ask a driver of a late class A truck...they hate them because they must be towed to a dealership to be reset.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The monitor I am using is powered externally and supposedly uses a minute non-measurable amount of current from the cell.

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> The monitor I am using is powered externally and supposedly uses a minute non-measurable amount of current from the cell.


That is good. I take voltage measurements immediately at the end of a charge. My charger tapers down to somewhere around 100mA of current and pulses it on and off until the timer shuts it off. It is during the "off" time that I take my cell measurements. I would assume that if there is measurable drain by monitoring only one cell that it would be detected after a while.

It will be interesting to compare our packs over time to see if you find what I have that the pack stays in balance on its own quite nicely as long as dirt and moisture don't cause surface currents to imbalance the pack.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Some progress today. Thanks to Ivansgarage, I shut off the brake function and the throttle started working normally. (it gets full throttle )

Next, that pesky error 43, "brake wiper signal too high".

There is no pot installed on the wires,
. I will wire in the brake regen pot, to see if it is supposed to cut the signal down or what.

Miz


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## Nordic (Mar 28, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Some progress today. Thanks to Ivansgarage, I shut off the brake function and the throttle started working normally. (it gets full throttle )
> 
> Next, that pesky error 43, "brake wiper signal too high".
> 
> ...


Usual practise is to tie any unused signal inputs to ground to prevent them from picking up stray signals. Not sure if this would work in your application .... just a thought.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't use a brake pot, not even sure the wiring harness came wired for it.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Is the brake wiper circuit looking for a 5v signal but getting 12v from somewhere?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The HPEV wiring harness does not come with the pins in 21 and 17 (I think).

My supplier installed them and 3' twisted-pair leads.

They are open and unconnected.

I have had some advise on things to look at, which I will tomorrow.

Brake type may be set wrong, causing a "too high" warning.

Brake and throttle share the low wire. I might have the throttle high wire connected wrong to the harness giving that warning.

My brake enable was limiting my throttle signal. When I set the brake to OFF, my throttle started acting normally. (I think the brake type was set wrong)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I still have the 43 controller fault, the manual says to correct it in VCL section...SURE....

Anyways, I got tired of going over all those parameters , so, I took a little spin.

Not a great video, but I will have my son do a good one sunday.

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=2012-06-16093557.mp4

The transmission needs an overhaul, high slips and reverse leaks internally and hammers into gear. Well, I only paid $250 for it. A kit is a breeze. 

As for acceleration, it is like a V6 pick up. Not slow, not blinding fast. Just about right for a cruiser.

More later. Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did you try contacting HPEVS about your problem? If your dealer won't help you they should.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

HPEV,s is on my list. This is one of those ego things, where you want to solve it yourself. ....but they are on my list.

The controller manual says to correct error 43, you need to go into the VCL section. Which means I need a copy of WinVCL. Anyone know where I can get it?

Miz


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

Not sure if this is it but take a look...

http://www.vqfrenzy.com/entries/7980-Download-curtis-vcl-program


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Travis said VCL won't help you: 
http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/elec...gramming-curtis-controller-23.html#post592162


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the link, but:

That link above is a dead end. Even if the VCL program is there, it is a chain of malware, spam, and plain crap to be installed on your computer.

So,

If the VCL section can not help me, WHY does Curtis suggest it in their manual for the 1238-7601 controller on page 111 under the fault 43:


> Brake Wiper High
> 
> 1. Brake pot wiper voltage too high.
> Set: Brake pot wiper (pin 17) voltage FullBrake.
> ...


You see, what I am experiencing is a very basic program threshold value error. 

I have a "tell" in to HPEV on this glitch. I hope they dont tell me to send the controller back. 

At every paragraph in The Curtis manual it says to 


> Contact your Curtis applications engineer to resolve any issues about the (whatever) before continuing


 That is not going to happen. 

My best guess is that it is a direct result of running a pack voltage well above what this system is designed to do. Today I am going to bypass two cells and try it. If this bears me out, then resetting the high full wiper value is the answer, OR taking out two pack cells OR shutting off regen braking completely.....

I will keep in touch on my progress on this problem.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Supposedly people have been running 38 cells successfully. What's the highest voltage you have seen? I don't think you'd get a brake pot error on high voltage, you'd get an over voltage error. I've hit 129V on regen with my 36 cells with no shutdown or error.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ok, time for me to own up. 

Problem fixed.

Embarrassing but it was very basic.

I had two pins put into the plug by my dealer. I assumed them to be pot low and pot wiper......not so. They were pot high and pot wiper......

I started cutting into the harness and found the common used pot low wire. Spliced one and brought it out.

The high voltage message was correct, open circuit voltage is usually high and it needs something , the pot, hooked to it to bring it into the range....

After that, regen works, error code disappeared, I only have a blinking yellow LED now.

I will recheck all parameters one last time and exit controller....carefully...lol

Everyone, have a nice father,s day!

Miz


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

100 lashes for the screw up.........Everybody beens working on this all week...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr4FXGlgh4


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ouch! That looks painfull....

SO,Here you go:

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=95d1c812.mp4

It still gets a small trunk under the roll bar as well as a small spare tire on the tail ALA MG....The hood is optional at this point as I enjoy those strange, baffled expressions as we drive by.


I have learned a lot during this build even though it was my third EV. A lot of little things remain to be done and I will enjoy every little problem.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As an aside:

On acceleration, I,ve seen 568 Amps on the spyglass if it is accurate. 

On regen, I,ve seen 292 amps

After 15 minutes of combo driving, the controller is at 48C and the motor at 65C.

The ambient here is 107F ATM.

At 7,140 RPM my speedo sez 70MPH

Miz


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> As an aside:
> 
> On acceleration, I,ve seen 568 Amps on the spyglass if it is accurate.
> 
> ...


Did you get any indication of watts/mile yet??


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats Miz!


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

happy dads day miz, congrats, but I recall a promise of smoke from rubber induced friction. Hope you had a beer for me too.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Congrats!

I bet you are getting weird looks with no engine. Just a big open hole... Laugh...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

SandRailEV said:


> Did you get any indication of watts/mile yet??


You mean watt-hours/mile. Watts/mile is as useful as horsepower/mile.

[edit: The first sentence should have had a ? rather than a period at the end. The second sentence is supposed to be humorous. Maybe it is only humorous to Physics and Engineering types, I don't know.]


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I need to stick close to home. I have no title-insurance-license plate...I am a cop's dream stop waiting to happen.

Of coarse I just might be so strange that he might let me go too...LOL

This area I live in is rural and everyone either drives a tractor, golf cart, Quad or m/bike of some sort. 

Even so, I did get some "What-the-hell-was-that" looks yesterday. 

("look, an old car...It doesn't make any noise...Where's the motor...But it has a radiator")

I have to work on some smart-ass answers.

Miz

PS: My 40 AMP DC/DC seems to not keep up with my amp draw. But, I did run the aux battery down badly while checking parameters in the controller. I will try to charge it up and start watching from there.


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

GizmoEV said:


> You mean watt-hours/mile. Watts/mile is as useful as horsepower/mile.


 
Yeah yeah, I'm not stupid, I am human and make mistakes, but you knew what I meant, right?? Then why ask??


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah, you were understood. 

I developed the art of "reading between the lines" as I deal with school teachers on a daily basis. We have a saying, "The more education they got, the dumber they are."

Did you know that one requirement for getting a PHD is to have your sense of humor surgically removed?

I have found everyone communicates differently. If I understand the "drift" of the idea, I'm good. I also understand if someone has the need to make a point. It is part of life.

Just like once I was corrected and lectured to because I used the term "amperage" instead of "current". We both knew what I meant.

Miz


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

Yeah, don't get me started on teachers, they're a strange bunch.

Anyway, congrats on the maiden voyage... I am very interested in all your results because my conversion plan is very very similar to yours as far as motor choice and controller. I am strongly considering the ac50 and 1238 but I am concerned with the reduced torque in the higher rpm range. My objectives are wild acceleration and range. Of course I am dealing with a much smaller and lighter vehicle. 

I haven't started a build page yet because I am still working on getting the donor in roller condition and haven't actually bought any electric parts yet... But soon...

And thanks for all the information you have provided everyone here...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Yahoo... 

Thanks for the video. Your car just seems to fit the setting perfectly. Have you got any plans to dress up the empty space up front, or are you just going to leave it like that so you can watch people scratch their heads?

Also, I've got to ask, is that the jingling of spurs I can hear as you walk up the drive?

Cheers,
Malcolm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great work Miz, I'm interested to hear your impressions on performance and how the auto trans works out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great video, really pleased to see it, well done.

I'm still keen on one of those plastic models of an ICE in the engine bay!

Or one of those clock work toy hamsters in a ball!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> You mean watt-hours/mile. Watts/mile is as useful as horsepower/mile.


Hey! You just corrected me on that too! You're like a mean old grade school teacher popping people on the knuckles with a wooden straight edge!


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## RET (Jan 3, 2012)

The video is cool . I am interested in how your powerglide is working 
with your motor . I want to do a powerglide with an 11" dc motor .

Are you using it like a two speed manual shift ?

Does it engage as soon as the motor starts turning like a standard does ?


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Great video, really pleased to see it, well done.
> 
> I'm still keen on one of those plastic models of an ICE in the engine bay!
> 
> Or one of those clock work toy hamsters in a ball!


What you need is a pair of side views of a full-on Top Fuel engine. Take the pictures and get them printed, full size, onto adhesive vinyl; then make a plywood profile and attach the pictures to that, and mount it between the firewall and radiator.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Laugh, that is a funny idea. Fake hamster on a motorized wheel in the engine bay. That would be hilarious!


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks for posting the video. It looks great. I think you have to leave the hood open. Empty or with something funny in there would work. Without a hood, it really grabs attention. Good luck with the last few details. You have a great ride there.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Here is a 45MPH East to West fly-by. Turn the sound WAY u
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=66075f1a.mp4
Part of the sound is the 6:14 gears, part is the AC50.


And another.
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=0c8cd182.mp4

Returning to the Nest....
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=74506a16.mp4

Thank all of you for the advice, encouragement and reality checks.

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

SandRailEV said:


> Yeah yeah, I'm not stupid, I am human and make mistakes, but you knew what I meant, right?? Then why ask??


I knew what you meant but other people trying to learn get mixed up when the wrong units are used. If only technically knowledgeable people read this list I wouldn't have said anything because the context clearly conveyed what you meant. 



toddshotrods said:


> Hey! You just corrected me on that too! You're like a mean old grade school teacher popping people on the knuckles with a wooden straight edge!


Not a mean old grade school teacher but a picky Physics and mathematics teacher.  Contrary to what some people think, I do have a sense of humor. Apparently my humor was missed in my correction. After trying to help people understand concepts when they have units all mixed up you quickly realize that it is critical to use the correct units.


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## SandRailEV (May 11, 2012)

GizmoEV said:


> Not a mean old grade school teacher but a picky Physics and mathematics teacher.  Contrary to what some people think, I do have a sense of humor. Apparently my humor was missed in my correction. After trying to help people understand concepts when they have units all mixed up you quickly realize that it is critical to use the correct units.


 
Yeah well, I have no sense of humor when addressed in the manor you did me. And you will never see me use those stupid things you call "emoticons". If you can't say what you mean and mean what you say, what makes you think some stupid emoticon thingy will make it all better...

Now if you had ASKED me if I meant watt hours/mile, I would have had a whole different view of your post. 

What's the next lesson teacher??


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Easy guys, this is Miz's thread about his hot rod, and *all* the focus right now should be on the fact that it's running now.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

mizlplix said:


> Here is a 45MPH East to West fly-by. Turn the sound WAY up.
> 
> http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=66075f1a.mp4
> Part of the sound is the 6:14 gears, part is the AC50.
> ...


Awesome. Sounds like a turbine. I hope my car ends up sounding half as cool.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Easy guys, this is Miz's thread about his hot rod, and *all* the focus right now should be on the fact that it's running now.


+1 Agreed.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Here is a 45MPH East to West fly-by. Turn the sound WAY up.
> 
> http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=66075f1a.mp4
> Part of the sound is the 6:14 gears, part is the AC50.
> ...


Awesome job, Miz.

Maybe some feet under the drivers seat which look like they are pushing the rig along like a Flinstones car.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hmmmmm(a teacher named "Gizmo") Who wooda thunk it...

Yah, it sounds so differently that one neighbor asked me if it was a turbine. I replied that he must have not watched much Batman or he would have known the difference...

Actually, the transmission in low gear concerns me. This one has the oval track mods to oiling and such, but a stock one would need shifted at about 5,000 RPMs or so. They are famous for losing the planetary for low when they raced in low gear (on/off/on/off/on/off the throttle)

Even so, it starts out in low nice and easy. I can even drive up to something and go inch by inch easy.

But reverse....another story. It slams into reverse as if I didnt have a pump on it. My guess is that it has most of the plates removed for reduced drag. Reverse is just a formality with oval racers.

High gear is non-existent. It shifts, but apply any throttle and it slips.

The car does surprise me though. I figured it would do 0-52 MPH in low, but it will do 70 MPH at 7100 RPM. Meaning really just first gear is needed for around town and some expressway driving. It will cause some heating if driven very long that fast in low gear.

My trans temp showed 150 Deg. F. after 30 minutes buzzing up and down the street.
The motor was 65 Deg. C (149 F)
The controller was 48 Deg C (118 F)

The ambient was actually 109 Deg F.

I know, it was not a real test, but it was something at least.

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Hmmmmm(a teacher named "Gizmo") Who wooda thunk it...


Got to have a sense of humor to drive a Gizmo. If there were space to not get injured I actually could simulate a Flinstone car. To get in your feet stay on the ground while the "lid" is closed and then feet are picked up and placed in the nose. I get enough funny looks as it is. Imagine starting off by "running?"


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> But reverse....another story. It slams into reverse as if I didnt have a pump on it. My guess is that it has most of the plates removed for reduced drag. Reverse is just a formality with oval racers.


What about electronically reversing the motor with the trans in 1st?


> My trans temp showed 150 Deg. F. after 30 minutes buzzing up and down the street.
> The motor was 65 Deg. C (149 F)
> The controller was 48 Deg C (118 F)
> 
> ...


Temps sound pretty good considering your ambient.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

two probs with that:

The charge pump is rotation specific, so it will never go into gear if turned backwards.

Automatic transmissions usually have a sprag clutch, which grabs in one direction and slips in the other, so it would judt slip when turned back wards.

My real answer to the transmission problems is simple...I need to put some clutches in it, and sealing rings. I made a short cut and now I pay the price.

No big. I located two "glides" near by for $150 and $175. I need to make two simple tools to compress the reverse clutch pack and to check the end play.

My Home made shifter must go also. I need a Hurst quarter stick.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I sort of figured my limited knowledge of automatics meant it wouldn't be that simple.


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## gsmith191145 (May 1, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> I sort of figured my limited knowledge of automatics meant it wouldn't be that simple.


Automatics are like a woman, on the outside we know how they work in theory but on the inside they are one mystery after another. 

"Whether it has tits or tires they both cost a lot of money, but your car will never cheat on you."


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The closest I ever got to the inside of an automatic was a buddy of mine tried to rebuild a TH350 from his '70's Blazer. He had parts all over his apartment during the rebuild, and after he put it back together it never did work right. I just exchanged mine for a rebuilt one when I needed to.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The most important things in an auto trans are the two everyone ignores.

1-clutch pack clearance.
2-bushing fit.

Clutch apply annular pistons have a very short stroke. Clutches have to be free-wheeling when not applied AND firmly clamped when applied. This means you MUST be in the exact middle of the piston travel. When they give an assembled clearance, you must stick to it. Measured with a feeler gauge. Substitute steel spacers to get it right. MOST people just swap out the old clutches for new and assume the clearance is right....and re-use the old spacers.


Bushings.....The bushing to shaft fit must be perfect. This is what holds your hydraulic pressure. There is no seal there, it relys on the clearance being smaller than a molecule of oil, so the oil will not leak by....MOST people just ignore the bushings because they "seem" good enough. REPLACE-always to get it right.

Everything else is easy.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

TODAY" I am re-fabbing a Curtis PB6 pot. It comes in a stainless steel box-like affair. It is nice enough, but it is too big to hang under my steering column, So I am putting it on a diet.

I have cut it narrower, just large enough for the pot to fit inside.

I need to reset the stops to get only 5K OHMs. The lever must be in the center 50% of the working range, for operational reasons.

Then I must reverse the direction of operation. Re-connection of the wires, heating and re-bending the return spring achieves that. 

Lastly I need to make the arm. I need the pot assy mounted to the under side of the column and steering wheel attached to do that.

The new arm needs to be aluminum and take on a paddle shape.

I will edit with pics tonite.

Miz


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Hey Miz,

Interesting reading, looks like a fun build. I have a little concern about the 38 cells though. Keep in mind, this controller is designed for 96 volts nominal, you are running 120 now. I have had some feedback with this combination. The first problem people experience is contactor failure. The controller precharges the capacitor bank inside the controller before it closes the contractor. It closes the contactor when the capacitor voltage is with in 2 volts of the pack voltage read on pin 1 of the controller OR 1 second has expired. When you run higher voltages, it takes longer to charge the capacitors, so the 1 second timeout is in play. When the contactor pulls in and the caps are not fully charge, it can weld the contacts. You will know this has happened if you get a code 39.

The other issue can be if you charge the batteries so they are in the 127 to 130 volt range when the key is turned on. The controller cuts current in this range, it doesn't make any difference if it's regen or drive current, so you can have sluggish performance off the line. It won't even power up if over 130 volts.

I've seen a lot of opinions on the charge voltage of lithium cells. Our experience is if you don't charge the cells to the "knee" in the voltage curve, which happens between 3.65 and 3.70 volts, you have no real way of telling what the SOC is of the cell. The voltage of the cell while charging is dependent on charge current. So, if you are charging at 40 amps you may see 3.55 vpc, where if you are charging at 10 amps you may see 3.45 vpc but the actual SOC could be the same. So, if you are charging your 38 cells to a voltage just low enough to keep the controller under the Overvoltage cutback limit, you are under charging the pack and this will cost you far more in range than you can ever pick up by adding 2 cells. 

The cells like to be 3.35 volts, the SOC can be anywhere from 30 to 90%, you can't tell be measuring voltage. To do an initial balance, we will parallel all of the cells and charge them to 3.7 volts with a voltage controlled power supply, this ensures all of the cells are fully charged before installation. I have my own opinions on BMS's which I will keep to myself right now since I don't want to get blasted by some of those out there with strong opinions on the subject.

When it comes to tech support on the HPEVS drive systems, pick up the phone and call us!!! Bill and I are very assessable, we don't bite. I would rather spend a few minutes on the phone and get the diagnosis right then see a lot of misinformation in a thread. I know some like to figure it out for themselves, but we can point you in the right direction.

Thanks for listening, Brian


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CALB cells use lower voltages and they don't recommend going above 3.6V, and there is an obvious beginning of the knee above 3.4V. I've been using an average 3.41V per cell at 20 amps for my 36 CALB 100's for the last three years with no issues. Occasionally I'll charge a bit higher to 3.45 if I want to maximize range.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for bringing that up JRP3. Our Scion has the Calb batteries in it, I will have to run a trace and take a look. We have primarily worked with the Voltronix in the past.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

HPEVS said:


> Thanks for bringing that up JRP3. Our Scion has the Calb batteries in it, I will have to run a trace and take a look. We have primarily worked with the Voltronix in the past.


Is that the Scion that has the new controller? When I picked up my motor a few weeks ago you told me Bill was having a lot fun testing it. I won't say in a public forum the speed you told me he was getting out of the Scion, but if I was going that fast I would be looking in my rear view mirror a lot. LOL


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you're going fast enough you don't need to look behind.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> CALB cells use lower voltages and they don't recommend going above 3.6V, and there is an obvious beginning of the knee above 3.4V. I've been using an average 3.41V per cell at 20 amps for my 36 CALB 100's for the last three years with no issues. Occasionally I'll charge a bit higher to 3.45 if I want to maximize range.


+1 here. I charge my CALB's to 3.45 and get enough in them to call them full. 

I've heard several people say also how you can't tell SOC at all from voltage when inside knee at top and bottom. My experience has been that if rested for a while, and measured to 3 decimals, voltage is actually a pretty good indicator. No, not exact... but definitely not wide open.

Some good info there on the controller. Thanks for that.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> I have a little concern about the 38 cells though. Keep in mind, this controller is designed for 96 volts nominal, you are running 120 now. I have had some feedback with this combination. The first problem people experience is contactor failure. The controller precharges the capacitor bank inside the controller before it closes the contractor. It closes the contactor when the capacitor voltage is with in 2 volts of the pack voltage read on pin 1 of the controller OR 1 second has expired. When you run higher voltages, it takes longer to charge the capacitors, so the 1 second timeout is in play. When the contactor pulls in and the caps are not fully charge, it can weld the contacts. You will know this has happened if you get a code 39.


Hi HPEVS: Three questions.

1-What is the maximum voltage (cell count) that this system seems to work normally? How many cells do I lose to assure normal, as intended, function?

2-Has anyone simply attached a traditional precharge resistor to assist the curtis controller to perform an adequate precharge? (I assume the 1 second time is the limiting factor.)

3-By accessing the VCL section: Could the 1 second time frame be increased to 1.5 or even 2 seconds to assure a proper precharge?

Thx, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Most of us run 36 cells with no problems, 120V.
The controller handles precharge and they say specifically not to add any external precharge resistors, but I guess you could try it and see what happens. My guess would be a fault.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> CALB cells use lower voltages and they don't recommend going above 3.6V, and there is an obvious beginning of the knee above 3.4V. I've been using an average 3.41V per cell at 20 amps for my 36 CALB 100's for the last three years with no issues. Occasionally I'll charge a bit higher to 3.45 if I want to maximize range.


 Like this:

View attachment Charge Curve.pdf


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

HPEVS said:


> Hey Miz,
> <snip>...When the contactor pulls in and the caps are not fully charge, it can weld the contacts. You will know this has happened if you get a code 39...<snip>Thanks for listening, Brian


 I get a code 39 most times I turn my ignition off, for the last 2 1/2 years, unless I turn the key really fast.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Me too, was told that is normal on shut down, by HPEVS.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, guys:

My plan is to just run the 38 cells. My charger shuts off at 3.45 volts per cell.

They sit and drop a little from there. So, I am comfortable that they are not over charging....Except for one cell...It was at 3.54 after sitting. I put my load tester on it and drained it down to 3.45 to match the others. I will keep a watch on it both before and after charging.

In the short term, I will do weekly cell checks. After I am comfortable with them, I can go to monthly checks, then semi-annual.

This week, I have spent trying to design a regen control pot that works with a steering wheel paddle style lever. It is hard to package a unit that looks well.

A 5K pot hung under the column, OR a lever with a rod along the column to the pot behind the dash board, OR a halls-effect sensor behind the dash operated by a slender rod from the paddle.

Well, still working on it.

Mean time I am getting rid of my aux. Lead acid battery. I am building a brick of Headway cells. 3 strings (parallel) of 4 (in series). 13.5 volts at 30AH with a 40 amp DC/DC feeding it.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Hi Miz,

36 cells is the norm, 100's of vehicles running this count with no issues. The only time I here of issues is with more than that. Not saying it won't work, you just may have over voltage trips or precharge issues.

The 1 second precharge timeout is hard coded in the controller, I can't change it in VCL. A pre charge resistor can be added, just not too low in ohms or you'll get a Main Contactor Welded fault. 470 ohm 5 watt should work. Keep in mind, there is a discharge resistor inside the controller, so you will have some draw all the time unless you have a main line contactor.

I misspoke about the code 39. Welded contactor is a code 38, Code 39 is a contactor did not close fault. Code 39 will come up when powered down since the contactor drops out before the controllers logic powers down.

BFN


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

ricklearned said:


> Is that the Scion that has the new controller? When I picked up my motor a few weeks ago you told me Bill was having a lot fun testing it. I won't say in a public forum the speed you told me he was getting out of the Scion, but if I was going that fast I would be looking in my rear view mirror a lot. LOL


 Yes, the Scion has the new 144 volt system. The motor is similar to the AC50 except it is wound for the higher voltage and lower current. It cruises easily at 85 MPH with more to go, tough to test with the traffic in our area though. My 911 does north of 100, and its running 36 cells (115 volts).


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Thanks, guys:
> 
> My plan is to just run the 38 cells. My charger shuts off at 3.45 volts per cell...<snip>


 Have you thought about regen? You're pack likely will be around 127V or higher rest voltage after charging to 3.45V. Even 50-60A of regen may drive you to the 130V max controller voltage which may cause it to shut down. I suppose you could set User_Overvoltage to 128V to avoid that.


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## RET (Jan 3, 2012)

HPEVS said:


> Yes, the Scion has the new 144 volt system. The motor is similar to the AC50 except it is wound for the higher voltage and lower current. It cruises easily at 85 MPH with more to go, tough to test with the traffic in our area though. My 911 does north of 100, and its running 36 cells (115 volts).


What kind of range are you getting with your 911 ?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I live on a country lane. It is about a mile from my first stop sign and 45 MPH all the way. Several times, just off of a full charge, I drove it around the block. By the time I get to the stop sign, it stops fine with regen. then goes around the block about 3 miles and 4 stops OK.

I am going to try that precharge resistor, just for fun.(tHANKS FOR THE RESISTOR VALUE).

I learned several things today. My back yard is 170' X 260' and all grass. My grandson expressed an interest in driving the car, he is 12......

Lesson 1-Grandma sometimes waters the yard without telling me...

Lession 2-A 12 year old can get up to 40 MPH in the back yard...

It starts out nice and easy.
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/mizlplix/?action=view&current=1d900f40.mp4
And then the next thing you know, grandma is yelling at you.(I couldnt under stand it, I was just sitting in a chair, in the shade.)

mIZ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At least he's not doing donuts, yet


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I can see we aren't going to dissuade you from using 38 cells.
A 12 yr old, wet lawn, I'm surprised he didn't throw mud and turf.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some times you just have to try things for yourself. I was planning to add two cells to my pack to see what happens, now I'll just watch what happens with Miz first


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

When I worked for Bob Bondurant, We had a saying: "If you aren't living on the edge, You're taking up too much space." That is my philosophy on pretty much everything. 

As an aside- When the pack is powered up, the throttle at rest and the key switch is on, The RPM on the spyglass is at 3-5 and going up and down in that range, the motor seems to not be turning. Is this normal? (I might check my foot pedal setting to see if it is adjustable.)

TOO, If I hold the throttle pedal down (in neutral) and then turn the key switch on, the motor will run away. It Happened and is repeatable. I thought there was a feature to prevent this built into the controller.....

Lastly, when driving and at any speed, if I let the throttle off, the car does not really free roll. It feels like it has a slight drag. To my knowledge, I have everything set properly. I need to do two checks, ONE is to get it up to speed and (throttle off) turn the key switch off. ALSO: TUrn off the "Brake" parameter and drive it to compare.

These problems are not really a big deal, more of an observation.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, RPM should be zero with no throttle.
Yup, you can go full throttle when you turn on the key, I found that out when I hooked up my throttle backwards  Seems as if there should be an error if the controller sees full throttle on startup, but there isn't one.
That slight drag sounds like regen, which is normal, unless you have throttle regen turned off.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll add that my system came with "mild" settings from the factory, slow throttle ramp and weak regen. Reprogramming provided much better throttle response and stronger A pedal regen, which I wanted. I prefer one pedal driving as much as possible.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

RET said:


> What kind of range are you getting with your 911 ?


 Easily 60 miles around town, 80 miles highway.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> As an aside- When the pack is powered up, the throttle at rest and the key switch is on, The RPM on the spyglass is at 3-5 and going up and down in that range, the motor seems to not be turning. Is this normal? (I might check my foot pedal setting to see if it is adjustable.)
> 
> TOO, If I hold the throttle pedal down (in neutral) and then turn the key switch on, the motor will run away. It Happened and is repeatable. I thought there was a feature to prevent this built into the controller.....
> 
> ...


Hi Miz,

Double check to see if you have any Throttle Request in the Monitor, Input menu. You may need to adjust your deadband if you have a little throttle request, this can cause the motor to run with the pedal released. I like to have .3 volts of deadband. You can also check your max throttle here too. Set Forward Max just under what you see as the Throttle Pot Voltage in the Input Monitor Menu. This will ensure you are getting full throttle.

As it stands, there is no High Pedal disable. You can turn it on though if you like. In the Throttle Menu, set the HDP/SRO to Type 3 and give it a try.

What you are seeing is Neutral Braking. This is your pedal up regen. You can adjust this in the Torque Control Mode, Response menu. Default is around 10%, you can raise or lower as desired.

BFN,
Brian


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## RET (Jan 3, 2012)

HPEVS said:


> Easily 60 miles around town, 80 miles highway.


That is great range ! Is there a link to see the build of this car ? 

I am going to do a Triumph spitfire ( curb weight 1960 lbs with the ICE ) . I want to run a powerglide trans . I'm wondering what kind of performance I will get out of it with the AC-50 or the newer model you have coming out ? I would like to get some fast acceleration too off the line .


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

RET said:


> That is great range ! Is there a link to see the build of this car ?
> 
> I am going to do a Triumph spitfire ( curb weight 1960 lbs with the ICE ) . I want to run a powerglide trans . I'm wondering what kind of performance I will get out of it with the AC-50 or the newer model you have coming out ? I would like to get some fast acceleration too off the line .



There are pictures of the build on our website. I wouldn't use an automatic transmission, they eat power for lunch. I would stick with the manual trans in the car. You will have much better ratios for off the line and for highway speeds.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Miz may have a different opinion of automatics


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Anyone in my area has an open invitation to drive my car if you think a direct drive auto transmission eats power.

miz


P.S.: Brian, your HPEV link is dead.


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## RET (Jan 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Anyone in my area has an open invitation to drive my car if you think a direct drive auto transmission eats power.
> 
> miz
> 
> ...


How is your acceleration ? can you swap out gear ratios to dial in a faster 
acceleration in a power glide ? 

use first to get off the line, then second from there ( two speed shifting ).


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Anyone in my area has an open invitation to drive my car if you think a direct drive auto transmission eats power.
> 
> miz
> 
> ...


 Hi Miz,

There is a lot more to the auto than a manual, your watts per mile will be higher with the powerglide. It's an interesting concept I might want to check out someday though. I've often thought about trying an electronic 700R4 and set up the controller to do the shifting, though to get araound the losses in the trans though.

Thanks for the heads up on the link.

What is your current on flat ground at 60 MPH? My Porsche is 90 to 120 amps. It weighs 2675 pounds.

Brian


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know what comparisons you can get between two different vehicles with different weights and more importantly aerodynamics. Dyno test should show up any efficiency losses while eliminating weight and aero differences. Remember Miz is running without the torque converter which should help efficiency.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It is OK for everyone to have their pre-conceptions. But, reality is sometimes quite interesting.

A 75 Lb. transmission with a single planetary running in light weight ATF Has almost no friction at all. The only real drag on them is the reverse clutches turning backwards and we only leave 1 out of 5 in it.( A 3 or 4 speed overdrive model would be a different thing altogether.)

A manual transmission has a cluster and mainshaft full of gears, all in mesh all at once, all turning all the time, even in top gear. AND helical cut to load the gearing to a rear thrust bearing to make them quiet. Some are ATF, but most use a synchromesh lube or just plain thick 80/W90 gear lube.

My powerglide weighs 73 Lbs. The T-5 I removed weighed 88 Lbs.

To each, their own. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My car is not licensed or insured, so I try to not drive it too much. But I will post the amps information when I do.

OK, as for speed/shifting...

I have 32 " tall tires. I needed a 6.14 gear set to give about 100 MPH in high (direct ) gear. I get about 53 MPH in low. Meaning I dont really shift in town unless I get on the expressway. I designed it that way. to be simple.

I find the controller to be wonderfully adaptive and smooth and capable of a 20% larger motor.

I find the AC50 to be a great little buzz around town motor. After running around for about an hour, Accelerating and braking, 0-40-0-40 over and over, in an ambient of 109 Deg. F. the motor was 75 Deg. C(167F) and the controller was 54 Deg. C.(129 F) I have both water cooled.

My immediate goals are to get the car weighed, registered, plated & insured.


But to be honest, I am too much of a racecar guy at heart, So I am already planning the next motor. A custom built one. (Maybe direct drive too, if the torque figures work out)

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

HPEVS said:


> ...I wouldn't use an automatic transmission, they eat power for lunch. I would stick with the manual trans in the car...





HPEVS said:


> ...There is a lot more to the auto than a manual, your watts per mile will be higher with the powerglide...


I think a lot of that is leftover sentiment from the old days (60s, 70s, 80s) when automatics were mostly 3-speeds. One problem is, compared to a manual with O/D, you were always spinning higher RPMs over say 55mph. Second problem is until lock-up converters (which were initially seen by many as a problem - typical of new technology) came along there was still a lot of loss in the converter. I think that is the main culprit - think about it, it was designed to waste a portion of the energy (which many older cars had an abundance of, plus cheap gas to match) as heat, so the engine could idle. The original goal with automatics was more about being smooth and effortless at all costs - now almost all cars have a mandate to be efficient.

I have found modern automatics to be a completely different animal. My current 4spd, auto, O/D, lock-up, Saturn sedan gets the same mileage my 5spd, manual, Accord did. It's a smaller lighter car, but has less power (I have the weak little SOHC engine), which keeps your foot in the pedal longer. I got much better than rated MPG from the Accord because it had enough power to allow me to drive with a lighter touch on the throttle. If I could do that in my Saturn its economy would far exceed the Accord's, even with the automatic. Yes, I realize the manual version of my car is rated for higher MPG - I'm getting much better than my ratings.  The lock-up converter feels like 5th gear, and you can kind of tell you're more directly connected. My temp sensor went bad earlier this year, wreaking havoc with the computer, and one of the symptoms was the rpm stayed too high (vs RPM) for the computer to lock the converter - my mileage tanked.

I can't help but think Miz's converter-less approach is the best of both worlds. He basically has a 2 speed, clutch-less, sequential, manual transmission - ever price a sequential manual tranny? I'd put my money on 0 loss of efficiency with it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, everyone:

My next goal is to get the car titled and plated, next week if possible. Not too tough.......LOL

(Note to self, check closer before drilling anywhere on this car. There is high voltage everywhere with systems up and running.)








It will be OK, it is right beside a cable, but it should not touch......&*#@!%&@!^*$#)^!&!)$*!(&#*&!*_

The AC lead to the Elcon is 2" shorter that it used to be.

When things are going right, I tend to get casual.

There is no such thing as too safe. Plan safe. Plan again. drill last.


Miz

(I wonder if it will resharpen?)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ZORCH! How exciting was that?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The adrenaline rush was satisfying but wore off too quick. 

Miz : }


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Excuse me for jumping in the middle of your electrifying experience but I was browsing through some earlier posts and came across this. 
"I just cant afford lifepo4. If that were the only choice, id only drive ice vehicles.

Couple that with their fragility, their need for balancing. Their need for an expencive monitoring system and smart charger. Their need to not charge them fully and not use them too low....

Well my opinion is that their technology needs maturing or a betterbattery altogather.

The lifepo4 decision is not so clear where I sit.

Sorry in advance to all this offends. But it is my opinion thats all."

MIZ Seeing as how you just got some lithium batteries I would like to know what swayed you to make the plunge. While I have never been anti lithium your statement is about the closest I have heard that reflects some of my reasons for dragging around over a thousand pounds of fishing sinkers all these years.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

He fell into some extra cash. That's the only rational reason to be opposed to lithium.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Ziggythewiz said:


> He fell into some extra cash. That's the only rational reason to be opposed to lithium.


no, dude, there are other reasons why he went Lipo, BUT, you'll have to ask him instead of just assuming what you thought the reason is, rational or otherwise. 

Most of them are like the great apple / android war going on at work, which system is actually better?* You can substitute Linux & MSDOS, ford, dodge, chevy, Absolute / Stolichnaya, Natural Gas or electric heat, BMS or Naked, whatever.

*answer is: "depends"


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> I just unexpectedly sold some property and could lay my hands on some extra funds, so I took the leap.


I'm not assuming anything. I've been following the thread for some time and he's already answered it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Truthfully, This is my third EV. The other two were FLA battery powered.
I am VERY experienced in their installation, maintenance and upkeep as well as their little quirks-strengths and weaknesses.

If you really looked closely, my car was set up for 20-6VDC GC sized batteries.
It would have been OK with them. I would have been OK with them. 

As with so much on the internet, I read and re-read so much about lithium batteries that it made my head spin. So much contradictory information. Lots of it was by persons never having owned any....Just what they read on the internet...

I started watching and listening to people who Actually own Lithium batteries. Their good and bad stories , Ignored everyone else and formed my own opinion.

As stated, I was suddenly able to afford a medium sized pack. Even then, it took a lot of soul searching to make the switch.

I decided several things:

I decided to NOT use a BMS. (Many BMS failures, many people hawking their systems and stretching the facts, and no system did the things I considered important.-No I will not explain any of these-They are my opinions.)

I decided that maintenance was still maintenance. I just had to do it differently when switching from lead to lithium.

I found it hard to ignore the tremendous weight savings.

I considered the performance/capacity/C rate improvement a plus also.

Just the short time I have been actually driving the car, I really like the "normal" light/nimble feel to it due to the lack of 1,800# of batteries.

No opinion of the range improvement, too soon.

No opinion of the possible performance increase due to the switch from DC to AC system kinda screws a seat-of-the-pants battery comparison.

So far, I have found that some of things expounded in the forums about lithium is at best inaccurate. (More on that at a later date.)

I still believe that a Lead car is a good first "learner" car. OR a good vehicle for those with no other choice. (Lead or none, choose lead.)

In closing, a last question: My pack stops charging at 3.345 average/cell.
I have 1 that is 3.91/cell. I am going to pull that one down to the 3.345 area to match the others. Is 3.345/cell decent for a non-BMS pack, I think so.

THX, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I consider myself on the low side ending around 3.41V average at 20 amps, I'd say 3.345 is too low and not into the knee of the curve so you don't get a good idea of SOC, and leaving some real capacity on the table. Of course that depends on the current. What current are you at when ending charge?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Thanks for the feed back Miz. I have been following this post off and on so I missed the part about the land deal. Your explanation and reasoning runs a pretty close parallel to my thoughts. Like I said I am far from being anti lithium I just can’t bring myself to putting that much money on a credit card. Thanks again for answering my question and I will now let you get back to your build.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> In closing, a last question: My pack stops charging at 3.345 average/cell.
> I have 1 that is 3.91/cell. I am going to pull that one down to the 3.345 area to match the others. Is 3.345/cell decent for a non-BMS pack, I think so.
> 
> THX, Miz





JRP3 said:


> I consider myself on the low side ending around 3.41V average at 20 amps, I'd say 3.345 is too low and not into the knee of the curve so you don't get a good idea of SOC, and leaving some real capacity on the table. Of course that depends on the current. What current are you at when ending charge?


I'm with JRP3 on this too. Based on the resting voltage of my pack I think I'm getting 99-100%SOC on my charge to 3.465vpc ending charge at a few mA of current into my 200Ah pack. If I weren't into my "do cells drift" test I would try lowering the ending charge a little more and see how they do.

I did a test on one of my TS-LFP100AHA cells so I went back and looked at my data. For the data from a cell charging at 6A with a starting terminal voltage of 3.350V and ending at 3.451V with current at 476mA a total of 49Ah was added to the cell. From the point where the current started to taper back (terminal voltage was 3.421V) a total of 9Ah was added to the cell.

Ending current does matter. Ending charge at 3.6Vpc and 0.05C is similar to ending at 3.45-3.50V with current down in the 0.001C range.

HTH,


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is a typical charging curve for one of my 180Ah CALB cells:
View attachment Charge Curve.pdf


I was charging at about 25A in this case, so you can see you have quite a bit of capacity left at 3.345V (each major time division is 2000 seconds). Charging current was tapering back during the exponential rise part of the curve, so I can't say how much charge was added there. You can see from the curve why JRP3 and Giz charge to around 3.45V - it is roughly at the start of the exponential part of the curve, voltage rises very quickly with added charge beyond that point. I should add, there is some variability in these curves cell-to-cell, with somewhat different slope on both the "flatter" and exponential part of the curve, but this curve is representative.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have the 4th off, so I took the 5th and 6th to make a 5 day weekend.

My goal is to get it titled and plated. 

I have two small wiring items to clean up and I will be ready for inspection.

Miz


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> ....I have two small wiring items to clean up and I will be ready for inspection.
> 
> Miz


Be careful where you drill holes for those wires. LOL

Enjoy your time off.

Rick


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

TODAY:

I want to wish everyone a GREAT 4th and also celebrate the greatest nation ever attempted by any peoples. As Cronkite used to say, "The great American Experiment is still working."


I have switched out my lead/acid aux. battery for a small 30AH pack of Headways I got from a vendor in Canada, (12/10AH cells,4S-3P) . There are also a pair of 3500MF/300Volt caps in parallel to try and dampen out the nasty pulses generated by my 3 coolant pumps, (so the headlights don't flicker.)








It is kept charged by a Meanwell 40amp DC/DC converter, with the voltage set at 13.2 volts (3.3Volts per cell). 

It runs the car systems and lights easily.

I have yet to zero my ZEVA gauge setup as I keep messing with the 12VDC system and it would'nt stay calibrated.

After 3 charge-2/3rds discharge cycles, I have pin pointed my highest traction pack cell and now have a monitor on it. If it drifts too far, I can drain it down to nearer the rest of the pack.

Everything seems to be working well together-AC50/Curtis/CALB/Meanwell/Elcon.

Observation: I need a better shifter as reverse is hard to find.

(Good epitaph on my tombstone: I am always careful. Just sometimes I am a little more careful....)

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That little beastie looks great. How much was it?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

How much weight did you shave? Is that a bias ply tire?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Malcom:


> I've got to ask, is that the jingling of spurs I can hear as you walk up the drive?


Lets get one thing straght, NO they were not spurs, it was my keys jingling. No, I dont shoot Indians either. : )

Dragon: Weight? The old battery weighed 50# and the new pack weighs less than 10#.
Yes, those are Bias ply tires. (Old school Hotrod)


Zig: The cells and holders were around $220. The Caps were from the scrap bin at work. (free)

Miz


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> After 3 charge-2/3rds discharge cycles, I have pin pointed my highest traction pack cell and now have a monitor on it. If it drifts too far, I can drain it down to nearer the rest of the pack.


I'm a little confused about the wisdom of doing this, Miz.

If you mean the highest resting voltage cell when fully charged, then you are talking about the lowest capacity cell, which has gone higher up the knee of the charge curve, and sooner while charging, than any of the others.

If you drain it down at that point to match the other charged cells, aren't you _increasing _the difference in capacity between your lowest cell and all the rest? That would tend to make the cell even _more_ vulnerable to overdischarge at the bottom, because it would get there even _sooner_ than the other cells since you bled charge and top balanced it with them.

Seems better just to leave it alone, or better, bottom balance it with the others, and then either charge the pack to a lower voltage to keep it off the upper charge curve knee, or replace this one with a larger capacity cell. Your whole pack's actual capacity is restricted to the charge curve of the lowest capacity cell, or am I making an error understanding what you mean or are doing?

TomA


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It was a higher cell when I received them. It would still be high after charging.....

I am cycling them and voltage checking at full and after a decent day of driving before charging, again after...a few cycles, to establish in my mind it needs brought into the pack average.

If at some time I feel it is a "short" cell, I will replace it.

BTW: It is highest when just off the charger AND after setting 24 hrs.

It is a higher cell at half charge too.

Miz


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Interesting. The big question is what is the resting voltage of that cell relative to the others when the pack is fully discharged. If its higher, then presumably its somewhere around average capacity and the charge level is out of alignment with the others. If its voltage is lower than the others, then its the lowest capacity cell...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What you are doing is sort of top balancing that cell, with no idea of it's actual capacity. It really would be worth either top or bottom balancing the pack and then doing a controlled charge or discharge while monitoring to find actual capacities of your cells. That way you'll know which cells have the least capacity and decide how to handle it. My feeling is if your cells are close enough in capacity that you can bottom balance them but still have them reasonably close at the end of charge that's probably best, but if they aren't close enough to do that then top balancing is probably better, as long as you stay far away from deeply discharging your smallest cell.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My pack strategy is exactly that. I have over sized the pack for my average daily driving and plan to not deeply discharge them. As well as only charge to 3.35 (resting) or there abouts. So, top balancing should work in this instance. Yes, I'm leaving some on the table, but the Elcon people didnt want to go higher because I was not using a BMS.

I just today bought a DC clamp so I can measure my charge current accurately.
The pack only has the original/as delivered charge-then topped off-then driven 15 miles in local testing and once more charged to the Elcon shut off.

Yes, it seems to be just an out of adjustment cell (so far). I have as yet to do a full daily cycle to tell if it is damaged. In which case I will replace it.

The worst cell is still 137AH according to the CALB paperwork.


I go to the DMV tomorrow to begin the titling/licensing dance. It is 14.5 miles each way. It should be a good trial run.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

WOO-HOO!

Finally, I'm legal now. (Well about as legal as I ever get).
Titled and plated....

The trip was 38 miles in total. 

Pack voltage was full charged and sat over night at 127.2 volts.

When I arrived back home, It was 121.7 Volts.

The motor was 56 Deg.C. (133 F)
The controller was 45 Deg. C.(113 F)
The ambient is 35 Deg. C (95 F.)

I could hold 45 MPH at 120 Amps

The People in the DMV were in rare form today. The inspector didnt even get within 10 feet of the car, and the title clerk went to bat for me with her boss and got the bonded title changed to a regular one. I was looking for Rod Serling to step in at some point...

The suspension is so stiff, I chipped a tooth I think, driving over the train tracks, the seats were so hot that I got a heat rash and I got a tire way out of balance. I enjoyed every second.

Miz


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## RET (Jan 3, 2012)

That is great news !!! Now you can do some on road performance tests .

Congratulations it must feel good !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice. Current at 45mph seems a bit high if that's on the flat, but it might just be your aerodynamics, and the bias ply tires.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats Miz - I hope to follow your footsteps (of a smooth title/registration process) when my little hot rod grows up.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Sweet!



mizlplix said:


> Pack voltage was full charged and sat over night at 127.2 volts.


BTW, looking over my numbers on a TS 100Ah cell I'd say that you are leaving about 30% of your capacity unused by only charging to 3.35vpc, especially going by that resting voltage of about 3.347vpc. You just don't want to assume that you have 130Ah of capacity to use since 80% of it is more than you have in your pack with that charge voltage.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> WOO-HOO!
> 
> Finally, I'm legal now. (Well about as legal as I ever get).
> Titled and plated....
> ...


Great news, congratulations!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ty giz. Elcon. Strikes again. I sometimes wonder if they ever do what someone asks?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Ty giz. Elcon. Strikes again. I sometimes wonder if they ever do what someone asks?


To get what I wanted them to do with my Zivan chargers was to have them programmed for 19 cells and then I put 20 cells in my rig. That gave me 3.465vpc with a mA range ending current. Do you know what the ending current is on your charger?

I haven't poked around inside an Elcon but there is a voltage calibration pot in the Zivan chargers which I use to tweak the ending voltage. Maybe there is something similar in the Elcon or maybe they programmed other profiles you could switch to. As I understand it, the Elcon can have 10 different charging profiles programmed in. The manual should say how to switch it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

An Elcon has only one true algorithm. The ten steps are for cell count. I am on step 8-for 38 cells, at the 501V charge curve. 

OK, hand written notes on charger tag:
120V-18A, KW2.5, Alg501v, cells38, V4 133V, Ah 520, 13 6.5A 

Hand written set up chart:
SETTING--cells----V4-3.5
______________________
1 - 31 - 108.5
2 - 32 - 112.0
3 - 33 - 115.5
4 - 34 - 119.0
5 - 35 - 122.5
6 - 36 - 126.0
7 - 37 - 129.5
8 - 38 - 133.0
9 - 39 - 136.5
10 - 40 - 140.0

Those are changes by holding the button and turning on the unit, counting the blinks and release on desired one. Reboot and count to make sure, charge.

Present-*step 8*, 38 cells:
133.0/38= *3.50*/ cell average (If in balance)

*Step 9* on 38 cells looks like this:
136.5 pack volts / 38= *3.592* / cell average 

*Step10*, 38 cells:
140.0/38= *3.684*/ cell average.

Then after 24 hrs, they DO settle lower some.

*Pack history so far:* half charged on delivery as expected. Then charged. Checked. Drove 12 local miles over several days checking things. Checked again. Then a complete charge cycle. Sat for a week {checked) and drove 38 miles to DMV and back. Cell check needed now before I perform a full charge as I have a chart going.

So far I am happy with mileage and car performance, except the soft initial take-off. That has to be in the controller. 

HPEV gave me the two things to check for my twitchy wheel at rest problem. 
It was spot on. TYVM HPEV

Above 127 volts/pack, I have to double cycle the key to get a safe precharge and clear the error alert on the Spyglass. So, I am looking for a 147 wat, 5 Amp resistor as a suggested try. I have to shut off the main pack disconnedt when parking to stop a pack drain, or install a delay relay as suggested by Ivansgarage.

*Anyone have a suggestion where to get an insurance policy?* I have been turned down by two insurers so far (Farmers & J.C.Taylor). My car scares them.......

The DMV on the other hand was really good to me. They waved the $50 Inspection fee, Dropped the bonding requirement and Didnt make me wait back in line twice to install the V.I.N. tag.... The nice clerk lady walked out into the parking lot and installed it herself, just to see the car.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had a thought about the precharge, maybe turn on your headlights, and any other loads you have, before turning on the key. Might drop the voltage a little bit, maybe enough.

I guess your charging is set to stop at 3.5V per cell at 6.5 amps? That would be basically a full charge for CALB cells. You could switch to setting 7 to consistently undercharge the pack at almost 3.41V per cell if the range is enough for you, that's about what I use most of the time.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> An Elcon has only one true algorithm. The ten steps are for cell count.


Looks like I used the term algorithm the way most people use the word font rather than type face.



> OK, hand written notes on charger tag:
> 120V-18A, KW2.5, Alg501v, cells38, V4 133V, Ah 520, 13 6.5A


I wonder if that last value, 6.5A, represents the cutoff or ending current. For a 130Ah pack that would be 0.05C which would be correct for the charge procedure for ending at 3.6vpc. Both my Zivan NG1 and NG3 terminate somewhere in the 100mA range and it pulses that on and off during the old lead acid equalize phase. It appears that the Zivan chargers only have a lead acid type of algorithm where it is terminated after a certain amount of time the pack is at or above a particular voltage where as the Elcon is capable of terminating after reaching a particular voltage and current has dropped to a particular point. This difference is, if ending current is really 6.5A, why I get a full charge to 3.465vpc and you aren't.

You might consider trying step 9 and watch the pack charge. I don't remember if you have an Ah counter installed or not but it would be worth recording how many more Ah the pack will take on the next step up. That might not do well for the voltage limit of your controller, however.

It may be that you would actually get more range with a 36 cell pack that charges to a resting voltage of just under 3.4V. 



> *Anyone have a suggestion where to get an insurance policy?* I have been turned down by two insurers so far (Farmers & J.C.Taylor). My car scares them.......


You can tell Farmers that since they insure my Gizmo they surely can insure your rig. I only have a liability policy, however. It seems like there was a thread either here on DIY or the EVDL about getting insurance on EVs. Might be worth a look.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I guess your charging is set to stop at 3.5V per cell at 6.5 amps? That would be basically a full charge for CALB cells. You could switch to setting 7 to consistently undercharge the pack at almost 3.41V per cell if the range is enough for you, that's about what I use most of the time.


Wasn't that 3.6V at 0.05C? If his cells are resting at 3.347V after a "full" charge and a rest then they aren't getting fully charged.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Both my Zivan NG1 and NG3 terminate somewhere in the 100mA range and it pulses that on and off during the old lead acid equalize phase. It appears that the Zivan chargers only have a lead acid type of algorithm where it is terminated after a certain amount of time the pack is at or above a particular voltage where as the Elcon is capable of terminating after reaching a particular voltage and current has dropped to a particular point. This difference is, if ending current is really 6.5A, why I get a full charge to 3.465vpc and you aren't.


If your charger is ending at mA's of current and you have a resting voltage of 3.456V I'd say you are overcharging your cells.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Wasn't that 3.6V at 0.05C? If his cells are resting at 3.347V after a "full" charge and a rest then they aren't getting fully charged.


See my last post. Yes it's slightly under fully charged, but that's what you want for cell longevity.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If your charger is ending at mA's of current and you have a resting voltage of 3.456V I'd say you are overcharging your cells.


That is ending voltage, not resting voltage. Resting voltage is just under 3.4vpc.



JRP3 said:


> See my last post. Yes it's slightly under fully charged, but that's what you want for cell longevity.


Well, then why can I get over 30Ah into a 100Ah cell when it starts at a resting voltage of 3.35V and charge it up to a resting voltage of just under 3.4V? This is with the cell at 22°C. I wouldn't call a cell sitting at 70%SOC slightly under charged.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> ...*Anyone have a suggestion where to get an insurance policy?* I have been turned down by two insurers so far (Farmers & J.C.Taylor). My car scares them...


Specialty/collector car insurance (Grundy, Hagerty, Barrett Jackson, etc) if you don't plan to drive it for thousands of miles a year; _i.e._, if you plan to use it like an antique hot rod/toy. I also saw on My Classic Car that one of them is also offering "regular" insurance now too, and combinations of policy types so active enthusiasts can drive more, and have one policy that covers everything they drive.

The biggest difference for cars like yours is they have true "Agreed" value policies - as in they'll pay what you agreed the car is worth if something happens to it. Beware of the traditional companies claiming to offer that type of coverage with Stated value policies - they decline rapidly after signing on the dotted line, and they can pay you what they deem appropriate, regardless of what's on the policy (it actually says so in the fine print).

I won't name names, but I recommended BJ to someone and, unfortunately witnessed them honor their promise and pay in full when catastrophe struck.

This reminds me, again, that I need to start a policy on Schism soon. They'll even insure as you build.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> That is ending voltage, not resting voltage. Resting voltage is just under 3.4vpc.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then why can I get over 30Ah into a 100Ah cell when it starts at a resting voltage of 3.35V and charge it up to a resting voltage of just under 3.4V? This is with the cell at 22°C. I wouldn't call a cell sitting at 70%SOC slightly under charged.


Are you using TS cells? If so the voltages are different than CALBs and they don't behave the same way.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Are you using TS cells? If so the voltages are different than CALBs and they don't behave the same way.


That could be the difference. Mine are TS cells from Nov 2009. The rest voltages at 100% SOC appear to be the same as what I see others post. Also, wouldn't the stiffer CALBs mean that the energy capacity between 3.35V and 3.38-3.4V be even more than with the CALBs?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Right, the TS have more capacity at higher voltages than the CALBs, that's why your numbers don't make sense for CALB cells.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

No work on the car today. It's a family thing...

But, I have some interesting facts after putting about 50 miles on the car:

*Trans pump*, I ran my charge pump hose to the pressure test port on the front/right servo cover. MISTAKE: That only provides pressure to the forward gears. Reverse slams into gear when the motor starts turning. The reverse section is not being pressurized from there.

SO, I need to change it to the rear test port, and try it there. I am looking for the MAIN pressure gallery. (the best spot is to drill a hole in the front pump output manifold area. That requires pump removal.)


*Trans cooling*, With 105-110F average ambient temps, My trans is seeing 140-150 Deg. F. with water cooling. I have now unplugged the coolant pump and will report on the temps after a drive.


*Motor cooling*. I have been seeing 55c-58C with my tube style water cooling. I have unplugged that coolant pump also.

*Controller cooling*: My "bathtub" style chill-plate made by *Ivansgarage* is keeping the controller in the 45C-48C range, in varying driving situations. (all above 105 F.) 

Due to the effective heat exchanging capacity of my 1932 Ford style aluminum radiator, I have unplugged the big 14" Spal cooling fan. (It only ran at a stop when My foot was on the brake.)

I am trying to determine an adequate "summer" set up, while conserving current in the AUX. system. A winter set up should be quite easy.

NOTE: I need to widen my regen dead band some. I am seeing -4 amps without the lever being actuated, but the pot is at minimum setting.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are the trans, motor, and controller all sharing cooling fluid going into the big radiator?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Are the trans, motor, and controller all sharing cooling fluid going into the big radiator?


Yes everything goes throught the radiator.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Like Ivan said, Yes, all systems share the radiator, it gets warm to the touch, but not what I call hot. 

I am an Arizona Native and life long mechanic. It is safe to say that I am experienced in cooling systems. When I worked for the Bondurant Racing School, we could boil a car in three laps. Ford Engineering would stop by once in a while with special cars to test. Heat test. We could boil the ones that just made it through Death Valley. Our school cars survived by having 28# cooling systems, regular belt driven clutch fans (not solely electric) and they required 265 Deg. F. to boil.

The top of my controller at the base, gets hot, but I can still hold my hand on it. The motor gets to where you can hold it for 10 seconds or so, but must let it go. Not real hot either in it's operating range.

All I need is insurance and I can begin driving. I will carry my infrared gun to take temp. samples.

Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

As if it didn't already look funny enough magically driving down the street with the engine bay appearing empty. Now you can be leaning over the firewall taking temp gun readings going down the road! Definitely want to get insurance before attracting that much attention!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very interested to see the temp differences on the motor with and without the liquid cooling, and compare your readings with the internal monitor temp on the 840 display.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

(maybe a system of mirrors then...)


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> That could be the difference. Mine are TS cells from Nov 2009. The rest voltages at 100% SOC appear to be the same as what I see others post. Also, wouldn't the stiffer CALBs mean that the energy capacity between 3.35V and 3.38-3.4V be even more than with the CALBs?





JRP3 said:


> Right, the TS have more capacity at higher voltages than the CALBs, that's why your numbers don't make sense for CALB cells.


I don't want to take over Miz thread but it seems this might still apply to him. I've been puzzling over your response to my statement above and then I went back and reread what I wrote. I miss typed that last line. It should have said, "Also, wouldn't the stiffer CALBs mean that the energy capacity between 3.35V and 3.38-3.4V be even more than with the TS cells?"

If so, then my numbers will be lower than the same tests with CALB cells. In any case, I need to get some CALB cells to test and make a comparison. There is such a dearth of reliable data on these cells it is difficult to determine the best way to treat these cells under various situations and conditions.

Miz, Hope you can get insurance soon.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am on my fourth insurer. Everything goes well until they see pictures....

I really think it is that they dont understand what they are looking at. They just opt out as not to seem clueless of electric cars.

My applications are getting more "refined". In this case "full disclosure" is not indicated or desired by both sides.

I need to calibrate the speedo this weekend. Then further information has a meaning.

And I thought the titling process was going to be the real challenge....

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Gizmo, Jack Rickard has all the data, testing, and graphs one could want on the CALB cells, along with some comparisons to TS cells.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

UPDATE:

I have been sitting here doing nothing while I searched for insurance.

The penalty for building a unique car is to be placed in the "odd" catagory by the underwriters. Everything goes fine until they get the 4 required pictures....OK...OK....OK...Whatthehellisthat!.....

When they see the engine bay, they really freak. If they do not understand it, they are not insuring it. "We can not cover your car at this time". 

So, I got more creative with each policy form I filled out. Not lying, just brief and as few words as it required. That and some carefully taken pictures. Take a ton of pictures, adjust the angle as to minimise the odd aspects. Select 4 from the collection that fill their needs without standing out.

So, I noticed the latest company has charged my credit card last wednesday. 

The policy should be in the mail. (or so I hope)

Things that help:
Garaged 7/24.
Active alarm system in garage.
Driven less than 6,000 miles/Yr.
Proof of main transport vehicle/copy of title/copy of policy. 
Show a main vehicle/title/policy for every licensed driver in the house.
On board Halon/fire system.

I got my J1772 plug installed on-board. Installed the "spoofer" board. 
I made a charging cable for leaving at home. It has a power box and a contactor. 

I have everything installed except for not connecting the signal line to the power box. I have a toggle switch to activate ths contactor.

I also need to calibrate my ZEVA device as well as my speedometer.

OK, The last time I charged my pack, they were sitting at 3.125 volts/cell. The ELCON started out charging at 127.5 volts and 12.7 amps.
At the green light, it measured 127.6 volts and 1.36 Amps.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Miz did you ever do the comparison testing to find out whether or not your water cooling setup on the motor is helping? I am toying with the idea of using a small, sealed, PM, motor to make my bike project move until I get a Mars for it and was thinking about trying this idea. I have the radiator and water pump for the bike so making the cooler would be just the cost of the copper tubing, and fittings.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I should get my policy by Wednesday. 1 nice hot day and I can drive half way home then plug in the pump. I'll be able to get two results then.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> I should get my policy by Wednesday. 1 nice hot day and I can drive half way home then plug in the pump. I'll be able to get two results then.
> 
> Miz


Cool, thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Cool....


Hopefully


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Finally got my policy binder. I'll be driving to work in the morning for the first time...

BTW: When I just charged my pack, it was at 127.2Volts. It started out at 13Amps. It ended 4 hours later at 131.6 volts and 2.3 amps. There was some left in the curve, but I need to check the individual cells again before I let it do that. 

Yes I do have a high cell at 3.94 volts. I need to watch it tomorrow after 40 miles or so to see if it is lower or still higher than the average cell. I do hope it is kinda high, then it only needs brought down to the cell average. If kinda low, that means it is a low capacity cell...and more problems for me. (to get exchanged)

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Finally got my policy binder. I'll be driving to work in the morning for the first time...


SWEET!



> Yes I do have a high cell at 3.94 volts. I need to watch it tomorrow after 40 miles or so to see if it is lower or still higher than the average cell. I do hope it is kinda high, then it only needs brought down to the cell average. If kinda low, that means it is a low capacity cell...and more problems for me. (to get exchanged)


Remember that with the cells in the middle of the SOC curve that the voltages will be very close. You will want to discharge the pack most of the way to get down into the 90%DOD range to see the difference very well. Also, you could put a load on the pack and measure the voltages to see what they are like. I built a board with several ceramic base light bulb sockets wired in parallel. I just install several high wattage bulbs for my load.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yahoo!!!

A really nice day. I left the house for work at 4:25 AM. No traffic to speak of. The terrain is flat, 18 miles and 5-6 stop lights total. The car is really nimble and responsive. A real pleasure to drive. I used the lights going in. With the small Headway cells and the two 4,000MFD caps, the DC/DC worked well. The headlights were nice and bright with no flickering.

It was a LONG day , but was finally over. Traffic was heavy, but I seemed to be in a bubble without traffic....Go figure.

I did an experiment with the motor cooling set up. I started a thread in the tech section "Water cooling", I feel that topic needs it's own thread. It explains how little my tubing actually helped.

Just as I got home, My low gear started to slip on acceleration...SO, I will be taking it out Sunday for a rebuild. If Woodie does not mind, I will put pics and stuff in his thread about Powerglide secrets.

I am VERY pleased with the car. It is worlds easier to drive than my previous cars.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Awesome feedback Miz! Congrats on your first "official" successful maiden voyage! 

Headed to the other threads...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Congratulations Miz, good to see you are enjoying your car!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today I removed the AC50/powerglide from the car. When split apart, the direct drive shaft and coupler looks like this.









The powerglide is going to get all new bushings, seals, seal rings, steels, plates and band. There are some oil passages needing drilled out larger, the pump gears inspected for clearances and (the most important detail)-setting the end play.

BTW; An EV does NOT need Kevlar bands or clutches. It is too harsh and aggressive and will not give a normal life span. The RED or BLUE will do nicely. I prefer stock GM clutches for reverse. 

I need to drill into the pump high pressure manifold and install a fitting for my external charge pump (removing it from the low band piston port). This way, it will pressurize low & reverse, both (high gets pressure from the front gear pump). Lastly, Use type "F" ATF in any automatic in a heavy duty application. It really makes positive shifts. Yes, it is compatible with all seals

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Congratulations Miz, good to see you are enjoying your car!


Just before he takes it apart again 

Miz, I hope you'll take pics of the mods you are describing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Just before he takes it apart again
> 
> Miz, I hope you'll take pics of the mods you are describing.


+1 - thinking about running a 'glide in the Model E now, to make better use of the torquey, but slow, 13" motor.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, lots of pics. 

When I go to reassemble, they will be in a linear progression so as not to be confusing.

The glide would work nicely with a "Torque monster" motor. You will have to gear it for your desired top speed. The rest will take care of itself.

As a side note: A direct drive powerglide with no torque converter will back up in low gear if the motor is reversed, as long as an external pump is powering the low gear band. But the front pump will try to scavenge the oil system.......More thought is indicated. 

Two buttons on the dash, FOR and REV.

But, it would make a nice EV transmission. 

Good nite...Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Yes, lots of pics.
> 
> When I go to reassemble, they will be in a linear progression so as not to be confusing.
> 
> ...


Actually, I would prefer having reverse in the transmission, to simplify the motor connections (no reversing contactor, etc) - with the big DC motor we have. Beside the extra gear, that's one of the benefits of running it. Over a Gear Vendor's OD, I think the 'Glide also provides a bigger split.

I do need to work out the speeds and gearing though, to determine whether it's going to work for us.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Actually, I would prefer having reverse in the transmission, to simplify the motor connections (no reversing contactor, etc)


+1 I'm thinking the same thing. This stuff is a pain for reverse.



toddshotrods said:


> - with the big DC motor we have. Beside the extra gear, that's one of the benefits of running it, over a Gear Vendor's OD. I think the 'Glide also provides a bigger split.


Actually, I don't see how it would remove the benefit of a GV. . . . unless you got a real high rear gear, maybe. The glide gives under drive 1.76:1 or 1.8:1 (cant remember exactly) in low, plus 1:1 in high. The GV would overdrive this by 22%. So, my preference would be the Glide with the GV on the back.  This would be similar to what Metric is doing. . with the Lenco + GV, except half the length. (of course he has a double OD, . . + the LEnco reverse like mine)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Miz was probably referring to our AC motors when talking about electronic reversing. I agree it's not worth it with series DC.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Miz was probably referring to our AC motors when talking about electronic reversing. I agree it's not worth it with series DC.


Ahh, ok. Thanks for that JR. I didn't think of that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> ...Actually, I don't see how it would remove the benefit of a GV. . . . unless you got a real high rear gear, maybe. The glide gives under drive 1.76:1 or 1.8:1 (cant remember exactly) in low, plus 1:1 in high. The GV would overdrive this by 22%. So, my preference would be the Glide with the GV on the back.  This would be similar to what Metric is doing. . with the Lenco + GV, except half the length. (of course he has a double OD, . . + the LEnco reverse like mine)


My brain might not be working right because I've been up almost all night working, but I was referring to the fact that the Glide has a bigger percentage split between the 1.76 or 1.82 1st and 1:1 2nd gear. That means if I gear the 1:1 for the top speed, I'm getting a lot more low-end muscle from the Glide. Put that in an application like ours (Inhaler Model E) with outrageous power in a very lightweight package, where we could actually get by with direct drive, and it provides the ability with (as you said) a really high (numerically low) differential gearing, to aim for even higher top speeds; without sacrificing low end performance. We would probably be geared so tall that it would be like driving a direct drive vehicle - almost all "normal" driving would be done in 1st gear, with 2nd being used for triple digits.




JRP3 said:


> Miz was probably referring to our AC motors when talking about electronic reversing. I agree it's not worth it with series DC.


I missed that point too. Interesting though that it actually interferes with one of the advantages of the AC motor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Note the direct drive coupler. They come in two Chevy types, Early & late. Early has a 3-5/8" bolt circle and two piece oil seal, and the late has a 3" bolt circle and a one piece seal. (Also called their "crate engine") Get the one that matches your adapter kit....!!! They all have an adjustment for length. on the first snap ring groove, the center shaft does not protrude from the flange (pictured). It cannot do so because of the supplied motor coupler inner bore is too small. Mine was 3/8" too long...PROBLEM....*Option 1*-Move flange to the 3rd snap ring groove to make the length correct. Then lathe turn my new coupler to open up the center bore to accept the center shaft. OR *Option 2*- shorten the shaft from the rear (my choice). Also shorten the transmission inner drive shaft 3/8" too. It was an hours work and easy to do at home. Now everything bolts up perfectly!


Relating to my possible use of a TH125 auto in my Fiero, any chance the GM transmissions use the same input shaft for the torque converters, and this adapter would work on a TH125?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry, I don't have the foggiest. BUT:

the O.D. of the drive end with the slots is 1.870" (the front seal I.D.) 


the O.D. of the input shaft splines is .885"


The input shaft spline count is 17

The depth of my bellhousing is 5.25" (from seal to block mating surface)

Maybe you can measure yours and compare?

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the data. My "build" is still virtual, but once I get my hands on an actual transmission I can check it against your measurements.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

During this time when I am rebuilding the powerglide, I am using the down time to do some other things I have been wanting to do.

Like remove the clutch pedal. Yes it was hooked up to the transmission dump valve. That was for the ICE motor to take off when placed in gear. Not needed.

Like removing the transmission heat exchanger, hoses and pump. Not needed.

Like removing the 18" Spaal fan on the aluminum 1932 Ford radiator up front. Not needed.

I need to rewire my ZEVA coil 12VDC + wire to battery direct so the 12VDC disconnect switch will not interrupt it. It needs to keep alive in order to keep accurate estimate of my pack current.

Same with my J1772 plug "spoofer" board. It needs to stay alive even after the 12VDC disconnect is off.

Please be patient with me on this transmission build. It is taking so very much longer because of the constant need to stop, take pics, upload, and document the steps. I am used to just blowing through these things and moving on. It is also taxing my will to not skip over things. There are SO many things I catch myself doing automatically and not talking about. 

Example: Before putting the reverse piston in the bore, As part of the prep, I lightly run my finger with emery paper around the top stepped portion to eliminate any sharp or even square edges that will cut the new seal ring.

That is a standard "mechanic" thing you pick up over the years and just do and not think about it. 

Like when sticking a shaft into a seal, and the shaft has splines, threads or grooves that will scratch the seal, I always wrap those spots with black electrical tape and oil it. After the shaft is past the machined spot, I pull the tape out. Protecting the seal is the whole point.

BTW: Seal 101: Every seal installed in everything needs to be lubricated. They will get extreme wear on start up until they get the natural splash oil on them. Dry seal = short life.

Miz


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> During this time when I am rebuilding the powerglide, I am using the down time to do some other things I have been wanting to do.
> 
> ........
> 
> ...


I am just installing my spoofer board. Mine is the AVC2 from Modular EV Power. I assume you want it on so that you can charge with the J1772 while the ignition switch is off. If you are using that board are you using the relay on that board for anything? Some one suggested to me that I use the relay to turn on a fan to exhaust hot air from my Elcon charger. 

Another use I was thinking about for that relay is to turn on the programmable voltmeter that I use to shut off my charger when my pack voltage gets to a certain point. That voltmeter stays on all the time right now but it would be a good feature to have it only come on when I am charging or when the car is running. That way it won't be draining the 12 volt battery when not charging.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, my aux relay #1 turns on my single cell monitor. It watches my "problem" cell. It is the highest cell when charging and lowest when driving. I have not as yet, but can use it to turn off my Elcon if that cell gets too far above the rest of the pack.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I really love weekends when I have all of my parts....


The first issue to be dealt with is to set the reverse clutch clearance then install the planetary. Next comes the high gear clutch pack. My kit has a 6 clutch set. That is good for 400HP-500HP. 

By lathe turning the piston <thinner>, I can add more, (but why?). I guess it is a sickness...LOL

There are $150.00 kits that will allow 10 clutches and up to 1000HP. Not needed here obviously.

Next comes the first gear band/servo/cover and then the valve body last. 

Lots of pics comming.

If anyone needs help or Powerglide information, My email is [email protected]. If you get into a build and have a problem, You can also call me and we can talk our way through it.

They are really simple transmissions. 

You can even have an 8" converter made for them. That is the diameter of the motor....Think about that! 

A small 8" O.D. 500RPM stall converter so you can idle the motor and have a power steering pump, AC compressor and everything.

Later, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any idea what a custom converter like that might cost?


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Miz You have been working on this car six years. Do you think its gona take six more to finish this tranny?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ivan, I expect crap like that from my wife, not a member of the forum.

Answer: This weekend to assemble and do the air checks and put it back in next weekend If I am not trapped into a "family" dust-up.

Torque converter: A custom converter can cost $250-$500 depending on the mods. I feel it would be the lower end because it would not need the furnace brazed fins, roller thrusts, anti-balloon plates and other high horsepower mods of a drag racing converter.

I need to email Hughs here in Phoenix for their opinion. 

EDIT: I have two inquiries to converter builders.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today, I cleaned up and assembled my front pump. 

Installed the new converter (drive adapter) bushing and front seal.

Cleaned one last time, lube the gears with assembly lube and torque the 5 cover bolts.

I will need to assemble and check the Transmission end play several times to shim it correctly.

After the end play is set, then OK to install the o-ring and 2 sealing rings. Then bag the pump for later installation. (I need a new high pack piston, remember?)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Slightly O.T.*

I officially retired yesterday. 








What a cake...

Miz


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Congratulations Miz!

Enjoy!

Eric


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Slightly O.T.*

Congrats! Now no more excuses!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Congratulations!

Now the real work starts!



I hope you enjoy your retirement to its fullest!


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Congrats! Nice cake. There is even a charger of sorts sticking through the hood!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, what's with the ICE?  Congrats.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Congrats Miz!


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## Carl55 (Jun 9, 2012)

Congrats. Enjoy. Hope I make it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I was playing around with my car this weekend. I found that it actually pulls slightly lower current in high than low gear when taking off.

It IS slower in acceleration, but not really bad. I need to weigh my car, but it can not weigh more than 2,000#..... 

It is so good that I am considering getting rid of the transmission and just going direct drive.

By making an adapter plate to the motor and using a Powerglide tail housing with a cut off output shaft, I can use the original driveshaft, transmission mount and still have my speedo gears!

My second option would be to make a custom wound motor in 15-20HP range with the above set up. (That would let me sell the AC50 and powerglide to recoup some more car capitol)

Either way, it would be a nice, smooth cruiser.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I was playing around with my car this weekend. I found that it actually pulls slightly lower current in high than low gear when taking off.
> 
> It IS slower in acceleration, but not really bad. I need to weigh my car, but it can not weigh more than 2,000#.....


Interesting, at first I wondered how this was possible, but I suppose if you took off in 1st at the same slower rate current would be lower.

I had a question on your pump for the transmission, is the output adjustable, or are you using a separate pressure switch? I ask because my TH125 looks as if it will only need around 60 psi or so, but I'd like to use a higher pressure pump and be able to adjust it up and down if needed.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi JR:

The pressure switch is integral with the pump and is non-adjustable. All of this series is not adjustable.

You can literally buy any pressure you want. There are hundreds of different models in the catalog.

Ivansgarage just bought a 60PSI model for use with his 4L60 transmission, But I think he has not hooked it up yet.

Pressure is a function of volume and restriction. The 2.2GPM pump will put out "X" pressure if capped off and not allowed to flow, but if it has a fixed switch, it shuts off at the switch setting.

If a transmission has a built in leak rate of 3GPM, that 2.2GPM pump will never shut off no matter if it has a 100PSI or a 60PSI switch.

ALL transmission main pressure throttling valves are set to control the transmission supply pressure. If I put my 150PSI pump on a 4L60 transmission, it would never shut off as the transmission throttling valve dumps at 60PSI. It would never get to 150PSI needed to trip the switch.

The trick with this remote set up is to select a pump with the pressure just at or slightly below the transmission apply pressure (Which is what I did).

Mine is key switched and comes on with the key. The trans is placed in gear. I apply foot throttle with POT 1 and off I go. The pump stops sometime in the first 10 feet and stays off. When stopping, About 2 seconds after the car stops, I hear the pump come back on.(It is off as long as the car is traveling)

IMHO, it would be best to look up your transmission pressure and buy that pump. 

Miz


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah, what's with the ICE?  Congrats.


A belated happy retirement day Miz. The cake looks good but the picture and jrp3’s comment brings to the forefront a question I have been asking myself for a while. How dose one go about cartooning an electric car? In the Daddy Roth style a big Mill sticking out of the hood was a no brainer. Very few people other than EV enthusiasts will appreciate the empty engine bay. Here are some takes on how to cartoon an EV.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You could have a battery bank sticking out like a big block, and add a fat charge plug.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> If a transmission has a built in leak rate of 3GPM, that 2.2GPM pump will never shut off no matter if it has a 100PSI or a 60PSI switch.
> 
> ALL transmission main pressure throttling valves are set to control the transmission supply pressure. If I put my 150PSI pump on a 4L60 transmission, it would never shut off as the transmission throttling valve dumps at 60PSI. It would never get to 150PSI needed to trip the switch.
> 
> ...


I guess that's what's confusing me. I have the table for the transmission and there are different minimum pressures depending on if the trans is in neutral, drive, or reverse. Also adding to the confusion is there are versions of this transmission with different values, and I'm not sure exactly which model this is. Specs in neutral at 1000rpm is 55-74 psi, but in reverse at 1000rpm it's 100-130 psi. So if I get say a 50 psi pump will I have problems in reverse? Another question do you use a check valve to protect the pump from higher pressure? The specs for my trans shows a max of 300 psi in reverse, wouldn't that blow out my pump without a check valve?



> Mine is key switched and comes on with the key. The trans is placed in gear. I apply foot throttle with POT 1 and off I go. The pump stops sometime in the first 10 feet and stays off. When stopping, About 2 seconds after the car stops, I hear the pump come back on.(It is off as long as the car is traveling)


I was thinking of maybe using a throttle switch so the pump would only come on off throttle, and if the pressure was low enough. Maybe not necessary.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My pump is rated the same as my transmission for max. pressure, So I am good. No, I don't use a check valve.

You on the other hand....

Most transmissions have a higher reverse pressure than forwards because the reverse clutches and piston are smaller. If there is a 300PSI rating at some point, I would install a check valve to be safe.

As for pump pressure....

I would buy a pump the same pressure as my forward gears ask for. Then when you hook it up to your throttle/off switch, it will only run when there is low pressure and the throttle is off.

The point of the pump is to stop the "THUMP" of the clutches slamming closed. Even at 1/2 pressure for the reverse, it should engage smoothly.

I just drove 25 miles this morning. The trans is very smooth on take off and a joy to drive. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

BTW: I really like the Art.

I envisioned a 1932 roadster with a big battery pack sticking up through the rumble area and a giant electric motor in the engine bay. About 3 feet long and 4 feet in diameter, taking up all the room like a fuel hemi. It would have the three Snaky motor leads coming out of the right side like exhaust pipes going back to the pack.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, thanks for the info. One more question, any idea where to find an appropriate check valve?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Almost any tractor supply, or where ever they make hydraulic hoses will have them.

OR look up a Parker-Hannifin dealer. (The parent office is in Hauppauge)

I used 1/4"NPT for all supply and pressure fittings.

A common 3/8" fuel hose for supply and I had a 3/8" pressure hose made for the pressure side. (300PSI) At a HosePower Dealer.

You need a low cracking pressure check valve. 3PSI would be best, not over 10PSI.

like this:

http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Inline_Check_Valve_p/cpiff.htm?1=1&CartID=0

Miz


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

A picture of an electric car


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

dragonsgate said:


> A picture of an electric car


Can I use that photo on my Blog? That is cool. Nice work.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thank you. You really made my week!

Miz


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Thank you. You really made my week!
> 
> Miz


Nice Pic Now if we could just put Miz in the drivers seat.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> BTW: I really like the Art.
> 
> I envisioned a 1932 roadster with a big battery pack sticking up through the rumble area and a giant electric motor in the engine bay. About 3 feet long and 4 feet in diameter, taking up all the room like a fuel hemi. It would have the three Snaky motor leads coming out of the right side like exhaust pipes going back to the pack.
> 
> Miz


 I retain a CC on the picture of the 32 but it was intended for Miz.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

A story about a 32 ford. My dad started following the wheat harvest with his older brother before WWII when he was 13 or 14 years old. They worked the fields from Texas up to the Canadian borer. He enjoyed talking about those years. He mentioned that he sent money home to his mom and she would save some of it back for him when he was home and needed a little cash. Somewhere around the third year of harvest dad and his brother bought a 1932 model B roaster. It had a rumble seat. He said it was black with green fenders and yellow wheels. One time when he was reminiscing about the car I for some reason asked him about sending money home. He gave a sheepish smile and said. “Aw… those girls up in the northern part of the country never saw an open top car like that...I never had any money to sent home.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I hear those rumble seats were pretty handy. 

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Had a thought on your lower starting amps in high gear. Is it at all possible, that with the lower pump pressure of your backup pump, and the extra load of being in high gear, is it possible that the clutches are slipping?
Oh, and if its not too late, congrats on the retirement!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thx.

The clutches are gripping 4 sure because the transmission needs 140-160PSI range. Just my electric pump is 150PSI. 

AND the main pump is putting out full flow at 50 engine RPMs, it actually vents as much as it uses because it was designed to keep the converter filled too. A task not needed any more.

Without the aux. pump, the main unit will engage the frictions at about 25-50 rpms (It is hard to tell as the AC50 accelerates so quickly.)

Besides it spins the tires at 0MPH. Hard to do if the clutches slip.

We can drive it with and with out the aux pump for reference.

Miz

NOTE: The acceleration curve is controlled by the controller. It does not act like a DC system and amp up big time at low RPMs. It starts out around 150 and builds up to 550 or so by 5000RPMs (or traffic gets heavy).


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I figured the pump was sized well enough, but was reaching for why you would have lower amps starting in high.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As a funny notation, it takes off in reverse faster than first even though they are the same ratio. The only thing I can assume is that it is set slightly different in the controller, which I will look into tomorrow.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're using the transmission for reverse how would the controller have any influence on it? Also, the current you are reading is probably on the battery side, which will be lower than what the controller sends to the motor until it hits full voltage. There is a throttle ramp, which might not be set aggressively enough, but I think the motor should be seeing full amps fairly soon after you hit the pedal, and way before 5K.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Have you ever said anything and later wondered what were you thinking?

But, it feels to back up faster , I was playing around with it today. I have no idea why. I think I need a big parking lot and a stop watch. It might be a mis-perception due to moving in an awkward direction. I can do time to a certain RPM.

I also want to do time in low/high to 60mph, then high gear only.

I suspect the RMS voltage spikes early, but all I can read is the DC voltage unless I hook up the lap top. Even then, do I really care about the RMS current frequency or voltage? Condition of the pack cells are most important to me, I think and that would be DC readings. 

Yes, I suspect the base acceleration ramp perameters in the controller are preventing a more rapid acceleration. I only assume they are protecting something or it is a function of an AC controller/inverter.

Miz


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> ...
> But, it feels to back up faster , I was playing around with it today. I have no idea why. I think I need a big parking lot and a stop watch. It might be a mis-perception due to moving in an awkward direction. I can do time to a certain RPM.
> 
> I also want to do time in low/high to 60mph, then high gear only.
> ...


If you can monitor battery current the rate at which it rises will be proportional to acceleration...


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Even in an ICE drivin car, reverse accel feels quick.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Have you ever said anything and later wondered what were you thinking?


Once or twice 


> Yes, I suspect the base acceleration ramp perameters in the controller are preventing a more rapid acceleration. I only assume they are protecting something or it is a function of an AC controller/inverter.
> 
> Miz


I know my Curtis came with a very weak accel ramp, frankly the car felt like crap at first off the line, until I borrowed a programmer and tweaked it. There were two parameters as I remember, gear soft something and throttle rate, or something. Let me look. Ok, under Torque Mode there is Accel Rate, values from 0.1-30 seconds, and Gear Soften, values from 0-100%. Reducing both of those numbers increases acceleration rates.


> Accel Rate
> Sets the rate (in seconds) at which the motor torque increases to full
> when full throttle is applied. Larger values represent slower response.





> Gear Soften
> Adjusts the throttle take-up from linear (0% setting) to an S curve.
> Larger values create softer throttle take-up, in forward and reverse.
> Softening is progressively reduced at higher speeds; see Figure 9.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I finally got tired of keeping my cells in balance, so I installed a mini BMS system.


















It is easy to install. It worked as advertised and actually brought down 7 cells as I was installing the boards.

My Elcon was set up for No BMS and has a more sedate curve in it, so I set it up for 37 cells even though I am running 36. It gives me 3.499Volts and 1.7 amps at the top. 

Even though the cells are pretty well balanced, it seems to keep tweaking them with each charging session.(which was what I was looking for.)

The system is set to sound the little Pizo horn at 2.5 volts on any cell. It has a 4 second delay to mask the occasional dips caused by normal pack sag while driving, but will come on steady if it gets worse.

On the other end, It "watches" my pack and is set up to stop the PFC2500 from charging if too many cells start shunting or 3.6 volts is reached.

NOTE: My boards seem to start shunting at 3.560Volts. 

The installation directions were clear. The pit falls were outlined. Everything went according to the book.

It is nice to use a product that works and has no surprises.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did you get your range back?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Before I installed the Mini BMS, the last time I drove it I got 43 miles and was sitting at 3.21Volts/cell. The pack was not perfectly balanced.

So, I believe the answer is yes, it seems to be OK.

Thanks for asking.

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Seeing the dirt on top of your cells makes me wonder if that has anything to do with your pack balance. In my case I took measures to reduce the ingress of dust, and occasionally water, into my pack. This has appeared to have an effect on the pack staying in balance much better.

IIRC, you didn't have a very well matched set of cells to start with, however, so that may be a much bigger factor.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you are speaking of the light dust in the pics, most of that is saw dust from mods to the battery boxes.

Even if it was dirt...unless it was something radically conductive, the BMS LEDs draw more than that.

I dont have the equipment to do a proper eddy current test but I think the drain would be so small as to be almost non existent. 

Even acid covering a regular car battery does not present a big threat and it is really conductive.

Having said that, parasitic drains are a real threat in any power storage system if it is left sitting and not maintained. I guess the thing is to always keep an eye on it. 

Even a horse will become useless if left alone long enough...

Miz


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> If you are speaking of the light dust in the pics, most of that is saw dust from mods to the battery boxes.
> 
> Even if it was dirt...unless it was something radically conductive, the BMS LEDs draw more than that.
> Miz


The dirt particles do not look dense enough to cause any problems. I have 4/10 of dirt road to traverse in and out of my place and the rear pack gets a really heavy coat of dust so Miz’s picture is mild 



[/QUOTE]Even a horse will become useless if left alone long enough...
Miz[/QUOTE] So dose your car want turn around and go back to the garage of its own accord?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

No, but I did use a lot of parts from this rural area in my build, so the car has an annoying habit of trying to turn right every time I pass a farm...

Miz


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> No, but I did use a lot of parts from this rural area in my build, so the car has an annoying habit of trying to turn right every time I pass a farm...
> 
> Miz


Love it MIZ, had me rolling a bit on that one. Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had a thought about using the transmission fluid as a cooling fluid for the Curtis, which would in turn preheat the trans fluid. I've been thinking that in cooler climates the auto trans fluid will probably never get near proper operating temps and might cause extra drag in the transmission. If the fluid were first run into a chill plate for the Curtis that would cool the controller and preheat the trans fluid going into the transmission, then it would run to a small trans cooler, and back to the Curtis, etc. Since you already have a pumping system with the transmission setup no extra pumps would be required. Thoughts?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My tranny runs at 71c (160f). 
My controller runs at 43-51c.
I would have to be seeing controller temps in excess of 70c to make it work. 

But, yes, if you are having high controller temps it would be a good thing to try.

But, ATF is thin in viscosity to begin with. Pre warming might not give measurable results.

There was a large drop in drag when you go from a manual trans with 80w-90 to an automatic with ATF. Try to turn the input shafts on each.....And you will get the picture.

But I like the oil cooled controller deal. Especially when you got a small air to liquid exchanger first.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> My tranny runs at 71c (160f).
> My controller runs at 43-51c.
> I would have to be seeing controller temps in excess of 70c to make it work.


I was thinking the heat exchanger after the tranny, before the controller, would lower the fluid temps, but I don't know by how much, I guess it depends on the size and fan.
I'm surprised at the heat of your tranny, since heat means friction loss. I've never measured my manual but I wouldn't think it would get that much above ambient. Of course your ambient is higher, how much above ambient is that for you?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The ambient on that day was 109F (42.7C)
Transmission after a 30 minute run=71C (in low gear only)
Controller with water cooling =51C
Motor temperature with water =55C

A decent air/liquid heat exchanger usually does 20F reduction (7C)

There are two stage coolers or High flow, small capillary coolers that do twice that

I will check the next time I go out. Everything is cooler now and I have high gear back.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I finally found the right size trunk. I coated it with 2 coats of polyurethane satin. 








It just needs the spare tire on the tail to look complete.

Next project is the hood top piece, then re-tailor the springs so it rides a little easier. I am thinking about a convertable top too.

(Please forgive the clutter)
Miz


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Clutter?
Compared to my garage your place looks sanitary. I also enjoy your thread and all the great knowledge you have shared. I will be starting an AC35 conversion of a '74 VW convertible in a few months. That process will be much easier because of the knowledge I have gained from this Forum.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

V'Dubs are probably the most natural conversion vehicle I have come across.

If I ever find a Karmann Ghia I can afford, another EV is a done deal.

A VW pick up would be a close second on my list.

A close ratio gear set is a must. It eliminates the overdrive 4th and makes it direct 1:1 while covering up the giant 2nd to 3rd hole.

Their whole line of vehicles was so wonderfully engineered that it is amazing.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

FYI: I finally got around to getting my car weighed, *1,900 Lbs* exactly (without driver). That is why it takes off in high gear so well with just an AC50. 

So after some soul searching, I have decided to go direct drive completely and do away with the transmission (Yea, I know....after all of that transmission work).

If you look at The Topeka Electric truck, you will see that *the Curtis 1238R controller will run a much larger motor* than what I am now using. 
http://topekaelectricmotor.com/electric-vehicles/ac-project
It is a well done conversion that runs and drives like a factory ICE vehicle.

I have enlisted Ivansgarage (here from the DIY forum) to build a custom motor. He has selected a really nice 20HP, 3 phase, 2 pole, induction motor to use in this project. It has both a finned aluminum housing and bell ends to keep the weight under 200 Lbs. (My AC50/adapter/powerglide combo weighs over 200 Lbs.) It is VF duty rated and has a 50% longer stator than normal with a straight rotor design. 

He has picked a combination concentric/3 layered wind pattern for the stator. It provides for a really flat torque curve over most of the RPM range. He is presently working out the optimum wire gauge to achieve a tight slot fill, handle the current and have the proper stator resistance for the Curtis controller's operating parameters. 

I hope to have it in the car and running by Christmas. The plan is to get some Dyno time on it to be able to show concrete results of a custom motor conversion.

If done correctly, it should be in that "Bermuda Triangle" area between the marginal AC50 and those costly $14,000 systems, while being affordable too.

Miz


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

It would be interesting to compare yuor costum wound motor to the special order ABB motor That the Aussies came up with.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Sounds great! Will you be keeping it two pole? Being direct drive, I would think 4 or 6 pole would be better for torque and a better rpm range.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is awesome, I love they way you keep pushing this project in new directions!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Sounds great! Will you be keeping it two pole? Being direct drive, I would think 4 or 6 pole would be better for torque and a better rpm range.


Yes, it will be rewound to 4 pole. 

*(The following is just my opinion and not an established fact)*

A Four pole motor seems to be the best compromise for EV usage, as is a Delta connection. A six pole motor can be used but it while it gains in torque, it loses in operational RPM range. It would benefit from a multi gear transmission.

A two pole motor is a good candidate for rewinding to four pole because of possibly having more back iron in the stator.

An inverter (VF) duty motor has (most times, but not always) a 50% longer stator for the motor size. (as does the AC50)

A twisted (clocked) rotor (like the AC50) is desirable because it is supposed to resist "cogging" effect, which is basically magnetic braking when the rotor sections pass the active stator section. This is really minor, but it does, in fact, exist.

Hand laying an AC stator is not difficult. It does take a lot of time, a good plan, and blisters. Hand laying is my preferred way to do an EV motor because the wire needs to be all one piece to avoid huge internal wiring connections. There simply is no room for them. 

This is because of the large "In-Hand" strand count of wires required to carry high current with low voltage in EV applications. 

Industrial motors use a small "in Hand" strand count because of the lower current and high voltage used in the city mains. This makes the internal connections much smaller and easy to do and machine pulling more feasible.

The AC50 is machine pulled. Most local motor shops can not duplicate this except by hand. They also have no data for an EV duty motor, so can not wind you one.

I am an advocate for lower voltage use in a DIY EV pack. (150 volts or 
less) Voltage is RPM and there is no reason to go higher designing a system unless you are direct drive and need the top end RPM to get acceptable vehicle speeds. 


Miz


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Do you know what the estimated peak torque and base speed will be on the new motor? Not sure I see the advantage of "wind-your-own" if you are using the Curtis 7601 controller. Motor shaft power will be limited to around 60kW by the controller (assuming 80% motor+controller eff), and you can have a base speed of about 4k rpm with the AC50 or about 2.5k rpm with the AC35 with nominal 115V pack. Is yours being wound for higher base speed than the AC50? If so, seems it will have lower peak torque. If that is the case, you could use the AC50 and the new Curtis 144V controller and have about 10% lower peak torque but over 5k rpm base speed, with the same peak power you have with the 7601 controller. Just trying to see your reasoning, could well be I've missed something. 

To me the main problem is the ceiling of 75kW controller power imposed by Curtis (assuming nominal 115V pack, 3.2V per cell). Need someone to come out with a lower cost 100 to 120 kW nominal 156V controller to use with the HPEVS motors.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Advantage of winding my own:


> If done correctly, it should be in that "Bermuda Triangle" area between the marginal AC50 and those costly $14,000 systems, while being affordable


As to the limits of the controller:


> If you look at The Topeka Electric truck, you will see that the Curtis 1238R controller will run a much larger motor than what I am now using.


I guess we will see....

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I think what you are expecting seems more like the new ac75 at just under 200lbs. The Topeka/ Baldor motor is about 500lbs and is a torque monster.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TopekaElectric does say


> NOT RECOMMENDED FOR VEHICLE WITH NO TRANSMISSION/DIRECT DRIVE APPLICATION


but I assume they aren't thinking of a vehicle as light as Miz's.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ivansgarage stopped in Topeka for a day (6 months ago) and spent time with Kevin. He was impressed with both trucks. They are used for transportation, to and from work, as well as shop delivery vehicles. The big one hauls around loads of 1,000# and up when necessary. The truck weighs 5,945# too.

The only problems they had were with the BMS. It required a part replacement and some tweaking to work properly.

Point is, the controller operates this rewound 30HP industrial motor nicely. It is not a hotrod, it runs in a daily-driver role. I am sure that monster could put out more if there were a heftier controller, but this one fills the role, is domestically produced and works flawlessly. (Of coarse they have a hefty pack to support it too.)

From my calcs, my car should weigh the same 1,900# after the motor change. I am looking forward to it and will share the results, good or less than good.

Going into this, I expect to get into this new motor for the same price as the AC50 or a bit less. 


*Moving on to the mechanical part of the conversion:*

The plan is to spline the motor output shaft, case harden it and use a Turbo 400 slip yoke-greased splines with a rubber boot. Simple.

My suspension only moves 1-1/2" vertically, so the slip yoke might move 1/8" or so in total. My only real concern is to limit the motor end play to .010" or less (the encoder limit).

The motor was designed to side load with a parallel belt drive, so I doubt if the weight and forces imposed by the 24' driveshaft will be a problem.

There is no need for a special "C" or"B" face end cap as the motor has bottom mounting holes. It also has a nice flat place for encoder mounting. The fan end shaft must be turned to 1" for the encoder then stepped down to 7/8" to mount the Rechargecar RPM sensor. 

The original "feet" are removable and can be changed to anything. 

Rather than paint the motor, the plan is to clean off the crud, wire brush the fins and apply two coats of poly-urethane clear to it. This thing is 12" in diameter and 18" long. It is a big piece of aluminum!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Point is, the controller operates this rewound 30HP industrial motor nicely. It is not a hotrod, it runs in a daily-driver role. I am sure that monster could put out more if there were a heftier controller, but this one fills the role, is domestically produced and works flawlessly. (Of coarse they have a hefty pack to support it too.)


 I'm sure it does, or a 20" motor for that matter. My point was that motor shaft power is the product of torque and motor angular velocity, so sure you can have high peak torque at lower rpms by using a larger motor, but you can't have that higher torque out to high rpm, since you are limited by the controller power. The higher the peak torque, the lower the rpm band over which you can have the peak torque for a given controller peak power. So Kevin's truck has high peak torque which permits it to pull a big load at lower rpms, but does not permit it to accelerate quickly with that load at higher rpms, which evidently he is quite happy with. Like I have said before, depends on what you want. But I think you will need a higher power controller to get into that "Bermuda Triangle", between an HPEVS/Curtis combo and the high cost 150kW AC systems. I'm sure you will have fun experimenting though, and wouldn't be surprised to see you announce you purchased a Rinehart controller sometime in the future.

Edit: Your lighter vehicle will have high acceleration rate at lower rpms with the new motor, but it will poop out at higher rpms due to controller power limitation (~650A*115V ~75kW, or 100 HP, or 80 HP after controller/motor losses). But not with the Rinehart controller. This is the same type of tradeoff you have with the AC50 versus AC75. More windings and more peak torque with the 75, but out to lower rpm than you have peak (but lower) torque with the AC50.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> It also has a nice flat place for encoder mounting. The fan end shaft must be turned to 1" for the encoder then stepped down to 7/8" to mount the Rechargecar RPM sensor.


Wouldn't it be easier to get the 1.125" encoder ring or make one to fit the shaft and eliminate the extra step?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I dont want to make this a debate thread. I want to keep it a built thread. But, In response...I guess we shall see, Nest Ce Pas?

Giz: The rotor is already in the lathe. one step is easy at that point. Besides getting another ring is more trouble. I am just duplicating an AC50 shaft.

In reflection, I really think my CALB cells will be my limiting factor. As long as I drive sane, they perform adequately, but if I am near 3.3V/cell and accelerate aggressively for more than 15 seconds, they sag below 2.5V/cell.(they always have) I am disappointed in them, I was led to believe they were better than that, OR is a 130AH pack is not big enough to run an AC50 hard? 

Who knows. This being the internet, I can get the math and data to support several conflicting opinions, so it is hard to really get to the truth.

Half of the discussions on this board are reduced to squabbling over "My data VS your data", and I stop reading after the third formula...LOL

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With my AC31, max current 550A, and 100ah CALBs, I've never seen voltage that low unless I'm nearing empty. I still think there is something funky going on with that batch of 130's.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

One or two cells going south could cause that. Check them when your nearing empty or your empty point. Are they all bottom balanced properly or are you top balancing them?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

They r top balanced.

If driven normally, I get about 50 miles before it goes 3.0V.

I will check voltages this time for sure at the 3.0V point.

Yes, one or more cells sound like they are fubar. I have two extras, so I can substitute and see if it helps. 

But, I think I will always think I got screwed by having the last batch of those cells out of china before the new ones came out. Given a heads up, I would have paid some more to trade up and waited 3 more months for them.

miz


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I dont want to make this a debate thread. I want to keep it a built thread. But, In response...I guess we shall see, Nest Ce Pas?...


Tomofreno is right... you have 80hp peak to play with no matter how big a motor you drive with the 1238. Pairing the 1238 with a bigger motor might not help, and very well could hurt because a certain percentage of its output current rating has to be used to create the field in the rotor (ie, the so-called magnetizing current). The larger the induction motor the more magnetizing current sloshing back and forth between it and the inverter, leaving less current to create useful torque. You can measure the magnetizing current of an induction motor by driving it at base speed with no load and measuring the phase current, while the losses incurred by the inverter and motor can be determined by measuring the battery current.

Make sure you use a true RMS clamp ammeter to measure both currents, however.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The real question is "can you do a double rotation through two orthographic planes?"

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Depends entirely on the deflection of the wayne shaft.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Wrong, That was a real question.
(believe it or not)

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Ha ha, all I could think about was the Rockwell Automation Retro-encabulator!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The real question is "can you do a double rotation through two orthographic planes?"
> 
> Miz


OK, put me out of my misery. I thought at first this must be a crystallography puzzle, but I'm beginning to wonder if you've been at the cactus juice


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This should explain the very clever reference. Extra geek points for Miz 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It is a postulate in fourth dimension Euclid Physics. 

There is only one construct that can perform a double rotation through two orthographic planes simultaneously. 

That is a Tesseract.

Basically, I was just wondering if he knew what his name was or if he chose it because it sounded cool...LOL

Miz


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

That is a cool maneuver, Tesseract. How long did it take you to be able to do a double rotation through two orthographic planes? That must be why you are Chief Electron Herder for Evnetics, LLC.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> ...
> Basically, I was just wondering if he knew what his name was or if he chose it because it sounded cool...LOL...


Yes, I know what it is and yes I chose it because it sounded cool, too. What can I say - I'm so vain, I probably think this post is about me...

And here's me referring to my chosen nom de plume:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=274683#post274683

P.S. - it's *orthogonal*, not orthographic!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Cool, I wasn't so far off with my guess at crystallography.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

UPDATE:

If you all will remember, I had been offered a free, custom wound larger motor to test in my car. Based on my car's performance in a high gear only mode, I decided to install the new motor as a direct drive application.

At this writing, the new motor is in the shop (Ivansgarage-ivanbennett.com-Tucson, AZ), has had the machining done and awaits rewinding. This should take place this week.

I selected a Chevy Turbo 400 slip yoke to fit my 1310 series u-joints. It has the big 1.397" splines and is used to transmit up to 600HP in drag race vehicles.(the splines)

This is the splining operation. The shaft is first turned to 1.400" O.D. 










then the splines are cut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cV80cUWVi0&feature=youtu.be (that is a test piece and not the actual motor) 

The after the splines are cleaned up the yoke fits nicely.


The stator is sitting on the bench awaiting rewinding. It is a 42 slot design and is 7.5" long. 
















The housing and end bells are all aluminum. 






The fan on the aux. shaft has been removed and it has been turned down to have a 1" O.D. step for the encoder with the rest of the shaft cut down to 7/8" for the Rechargecar RPM sensor ring.









The assembled motor weighs 225 Lbs. That is almost the exact weight of the AC50/powerglide unit it is replacing. 

More after it is rewound and bench run.

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Isn't standard Th400 slip yoke a 1350? Although, you can probably order it in 1310? Also, there are adapter u-joints. 1350x1310.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The 1310 u joint is what is used on model A open driveshaft conversions and a lot of old cars. It is what fitted my 8.8" Ford rear axle too. The common powerglide u joint for old cars is a 1310 too. (4 and 6 cylinder cars)

After the more powerful V8 engines came out in the 1960's, Chevy needed a stronger u joint, so they went up in size.

There are 3-4 in the 1300 series as well as a 1400 and a 1500 series as well.

If your original question was if a 1350 size was the most common? It could be, for their V8 cars.

The 1310 is a small size and easily adaptable to mostly everything. It cost < $20. My driveshaft was set to use it, which is why I bought that size in T400 splines.

Miz


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks for posting the spline video. Do you need to do anything to the shaft to harden it after machining? Looks like the shaft is fairly hard based on the many, shallow passes in the video.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That was a test piece of hot rolled stock....The motor shaft appears to be just a decent grade of carbon steel. The .010" cuts were necessary because he was using a converted boring bar and it would chatter easily.

He has since made a proper tool holder for the cutter.








That is the new heavier tool holder while cutting the actual motor shaft.

I have "Casenite" case hardening compound to put a .010" deep, hard layer on the new splines.

That and grease with a dust boot. My suspension has 1 1/2" travel in bump. so maybe 3" total. The driveshaft angle at rest is almost flat. The slip yoke moves so little that it almost is stationary. It should work fine.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have bought an encoder direct from U.S. Digital. They had an encoder work sheet online. You answer their questions and it gives you a part number.
http://usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/rotary/kit/E3



-64 pulses per revolution,
-Default base, 5 screw base or large sub-base to cover a big hole( then the default encoder mounts to it)
-They even offer a model with transfer adhesive-no screws.
-Cover with shaft hole,(or blank or extended/blank for longer shafts)
-Non-indexed (meaning there is no extra pulse on channel #2 to indicate a full revolution)
-shaft size for the rotor.(22 sizes are offered-metric and inch)
-installation kit is offered. .050" Allen wrench, rotor spacer and base centering tool)
-Electrical connectors too(ordered separately) 
-Withstands up to .010" shaft end play(check your motors, shim if necessary)

AND it was still cheaper than anywhere else by $20 (even HPEV) and It is the EXACT one from the AC50.












Earlier, my encoder sensor on my AC50 went bad and I bought a replacement from them. It was around $45.(if I remember correctly=sensor only)

They were cheerful and helpful to talk to and shipped that day.

(Just giving credit where it is due)

Miz


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Hey Miz shouldn't that of been under warranty the encoder?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Oh, on my shut downs?

I emailed Brian at HPEV and he gave me call information.

I called, Brian was not available, so I talked to his side-kick.......

He told me "they usually don't fail that way". "but, I will send you a new sensor anyway, But you have to send the old one back."

I said "OK" and gave him my contact information.......and waited.....and waited.... After the* fifth week* waiting and suffering intermittent shut downs (coasting to the side of the road/cycling the key and continuing) I just ordered one from U.S. Digital. (Did I mention they were good to deal with?)

(In a nut shell) The extra $$ was worth it to me to stop those annoying and embarrassing shut downs. Everything works like new again.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's interesting because I've had intermittent shutdowns almost from day one. I thought it was something in the contactor or controller circuit, but haven't been able to trace it out. The shutdowns only seem to happen on regen, doesn't matter how much regen or pack SOC. What led you to diagnose it as the encoder?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I want to take this time to thank everyone who helped or took an interest in my build. It has been a long but good experience.

I drive the car every day and continually make little improvements. I guess the build really never stops.

Thanks again.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Re: 1930 Model A Roadster build-Part 2*

OK, I have 300 miles on my AC50/powerglide set up. 

I am really satisfied with the performance and ease of driving.

I can now recommend it to anyone to use in their EV that can get by with just two gears. That would be cars under 3,500Lbs.
Heavier cars need 3 or more gears in my opinion.

But, I want to stress some points.

Whatever auxiliary pump you use, it needs to be at least 2 GPM or more and at least 1/2 the recommended transmission pressure. ( 3-4GPM and full trans rated pressure would be *optimum*) 

Plus *ALWAYS* use a check valve in the pressure line. The pump is subject to a pressure spike when shifted and the pump will not like it.

Converter or direct drive is OK, You can have a special 500 RPM stall converter made by Hughs for $300 or so.

If using a full manual valve body, You can NOT put it in low gear unless you are at a full stop. (Not even 3 MPH, Or you will make a big screech and people will look at you like you are a lunatic)

If you are auto shifting, it needs *a cable operated shift modulator*. 








I saw one online....somewhere. Made by B&M racing transmissions. Modulink P/N:140519576173
OR at: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/350_or_400_high_performance.htm?gclid=CPCAuKCIsbMCFQuCQgodoHAAFw
(about 29 scrolls down on the mouse wheel)
Which is one for a T350 that might be modified for a Powerglide...(ask)

*Also:A mod *for a supercharged engine to make it shift without vacuum.


> Remove the vacuum modulator from the transmission. Pull out modulator valve and grind a flat on the large diameter end of valve to make it leak so the governor pressure cannot lower the line pressure with vehicle speed. If the shift point is too extended put heavier springs in the governor. lf that does not work weld two of the weights together on one side


I have not personally tried this, but he swears it works and sounds right to me.

www.jakesperformance.com knows about transmissions for supercharged vehicles. Call and explain to them. They are quite helpful.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: 1930 Model A Roadster build-Part 2*



mizlplix said:


> If using a full manual valve body, You can NOT put it in low gear unless you are at a full stop. (Not even 3 MPH, Or you will make a big screech and people will look at you like you are a lunatic)


What would happen if you manually downshift with a non full manual valve body? What's the difference?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, the day has finally come....Time to get naked.























I am getting ready for the new drive system.





Some of you have asked: This all is posted elsewhere, But I wanted to get it all in one place.









It WAS an Emerson, 20HP inverter duty pump motor.
It was ancient and the bearings gave out and it finally refused to start.
It was bought for a small core charge. It had become hot, the seals failed,
the grease leaked inside. It was a mess, but no damage to the rotor or stator, 
which is real important.



The wire size was 17 gauge, it had 3 strands in-hand (the motor lead size) 
It is being rewound with 18 gauge, 
It will have 42 feet of wire per phase,
-12 strands in-hand, two turns.
It is wound for 70 Volts,
And has 200C insulation,(paper)
There will be slightly less copper in the slots because of the thicker paper....









It is direct drive, so it was splined for a Turbo400 slip yoke.














The motor is inverter duty, so has a longer rotor and stator than normal. 8" diameter and 7" long.
If you look closely, you can see the skewed rotor lamination.












The motor leads will come out here through Delrin insulators. 
The thermistor wires will come out that small hole in the drive end(right). 
That old electrical access plate will make a nice place to mount an air blower later if needed.

It is being wound ATM, so I am getting ready.

I have been rethinking my many strategies and have eliminated a lot of them.

-I seem to use hand signals when turning and have had problems with the L.E.D.flasher unit, 
So, I am removing the whole turn signal system.

-Due to going direct drive and decent motor temperatures, I am doing away with everything 
but the controller cool plate. I now only have one small 2 amp draw pump.

-I never turned on the radiator cooling fan, SO it is gone too.

-I need to do a parking brake now.......

-It is so quiet, I think I will install a sound system and dock for my Iphone running Pandora.

Short story: Yesterday, while driving to meet my wife for lunch, I stopped at a traffic light.
Two lanes over, an 18 wheeler stopped and the driver got out on his fuel tank 
and yelled "Hey! Is that thing electric?" 

I yelled back "Yea". 

He yelled back "Man, that is really cool..."

To my right, A guy in a pick up yelled " You had to make that?" "Didn't you?"

Before I could answer another guy on my left started to ask me a question when the 
light changed. We all waved and sped off.

It kinda reminded me of those friday nights long ago, cruising Central Ave. 
in phoenix back in 1967...A good feeling.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, JR:

When downshifting a "normal" powerglide, it has a shift delay valve that allows the pressures to slowly change the power flow as GM intended. Part of the Manual conversion is to jack up apply pressures and remove the delay valve.

Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Does that mean the powerglide is briefly in both gears? Would it be possible to set up a manual powerglide that retained the delay valve? 

An automatic transmission solves the problem of more gears than an EV needs or drivers know how to use and it gives a good park mechanism that the electric motor lacks. Still, it needs to be set up for anybody. That means figuring out how to handle automatic shifting with the unusual EV needs and making manual operation users friendly. It should stay in low longer with lighter loads and shift sooner if hammering the car but if auto shifting at the correct times is a problem setting it up a manual isn't a big deal. Scaring casual users with unintended tire squeal would be disturbing.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have changed over a bunch of automatics to manual shift. I DO believe it can be done and shift softer. But that would be a good question for these guys:

http://www.jakesperformance.com/

There might be an easy way to do it without buying a $300 valve body.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The downshift delay valve is located inside the front pump. I can see no reason it can not be retained when going manual shift. I would try a racing manual/automatic valve body first. It gives both modes of operation. 

Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It goes screech even with a little electric motor behind it? Even with regen off? 

I don't currently own anything with an automatic My old Dodge had the A904LA with mechanical kick down linkage behind a /6. You could push start it (kinda -- it would start if you rolled down a hill dropped it in 2nd at 20 mph.) I learned that hammering the throttle below 25 mph was something to do with great care as it was gonna go strait to first -- if I was turning the back end was about to help. It was a brutal box but I drove that 35 year old car on a 2000 mile road trip without incident, and I don't think the fluid had ever been changed (I had added about a pint as the rear seal was weeping.) Considering the abuse that car suffered while I was in high school (already old) I was impressed.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Looking awesome, Miz! Can't wait to see how it turns out!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

When you do a manual downshift and the delay valve has been removed, you are instantly, rigidly coupling The tires with the rotor, which is rotating at one half the wheels speed.

It is not done with the little clutches, it is done with the large low band which has 45 Sq. Ins. of surface area.

It is a matter of whether the rear tires have more grip than the spinning rotor has stored energy (ignoring the 1900# inertia of the car).

At speeds of 20 MPH and above, you *can* downshift by flooring the throttle pot and slamming down the shifter. There is a solid jolt and it shifts. I don't suppose it is good for the u-joints or transmission planetaries.

A transmission with a functioning torque converter might shift a little softer because of the non-solid coupling.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I got the motor/transmission unit out today and have started to separate it into it's unit pieces. The transmission is going to sell easy locally and the AC50/adapter into storage.

I have the shifter hole to patch and some wiring to clean up while the motor is out.

The biggest project is going to be the parking brake...I am losing the "park" gear in the transmission and even in seemingly flat parking lots, it will roll.

A really simple one came to mind, a block that rubs on the rear tire.....LOL

But I was a visionary and retained my left side cable/housing in the rear axle for "just in case" I needed it.

I wanted the "old style" dirt track racer look, so an outside left hand lever will be made.

Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

You could always use something like this one from speedway motors.








Or if your 8.8 has the bolt on U-joint flange on the rear you could make a thin rotor that bolts to that flange and use one of these cable operated calipers for a go-kart. Maybe get a rotor off of an old motorcycle and redrill it for the diff flange.
http://www.gokartsupply.com/discbr.htm


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Dan: True, E-brake systems like that are on many trucks.


On another subject: I have some more info. for people wanting to use a Powerglide in their cars. Go to the Powerglide sticky in the technical section.

Thx, Miz


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I had question about that picture you posted of your output shaft getting splines cut. Was the cutting insert being used for that a specific angle unique to splines or was it just a generic standard carbide insert?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It is just a standard 60 degree carbide insert. He took the slip yoke to the tool store and matched it up.

You cut the shaft down to the measured inside diameter of the splines and add .004" or so to be on the safe side.

It is set up on a rotary table and set to 32. The cuts were done at .010" at a pass for a total 0f .042" then start trying the slip yoke. Do .002" at a time until the yoke just fits.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Good news!

Ivan called yesterday. He had just come from the motor shop.

He was finished winding my new motor and had test-run it on the bench/no load.

While this is not a "fool proof" indicator of motor power/efficiency, it does show the work performed is basically sound. It is all any shop or manufacturer performs before shipping. The rest is assumed by virtue of being soundly engineered.

The test equipment can only output 60 cycles.

It can output up to 400 amps.

The voltage is not adjustable, but is set in 30 volt steps, 30-60-90,ETC.

So, set on the 60 volt step, the motor drew 65 amps running no load( and at the RPM 60 cycles dictates).

For reference, my AC50 ran about 53 amps with the same test.

My new motor is MUCH larger than the AC50. Almost 3 times as large.

My only real concrete proof of performance will be a 0-60MPH time. The AC50 did 12.2 seconds in high gear only. (It did 10.5 seconds using both gears.)

I will get to see it Sunday and begin the installation. 

I was lucky that I had an old 1996 Ford Ranger driveshaft laying around.







It was within 2" of where I wanted the motor to set and I have 7" to play with. So, I can install it unaltered! It has been sanded, 2 coats red primer and painted the same green as the body work.

It has the same Spicer 1310 series u-joints, so, the rear axle flange fits and I purchased a Turbo400 slip yoke








with a 1310 u-joint for the motor end.

Up until this point, I have not had an "emergency/parking brake". I had the Park pawl in the powerglide transmission to rely on.

I am building a left hand/outside-the-body brake lever much like the old dirt track midgets and sprinters had. It needs to be functional as well as useful.

Todays task.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

These functional/decorative things always take so damn long....LOL









This is the basic mechanism for my left hand brake. The quadrent still needs the notches and the ratchet assy. needs made.

Not much to tell, but we will try again tomorrow.

I guess Ivan is having issues too. I might have to wait a little longer for my motor, It is a busy time for all this month.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ivan and I have figured out a way to move the stator over in the aluminum housing that allows me to assemble the rotor backwards in it. That lets me install the motor backwards in the car, putting the electrical terminals(Leads) on the right side, directly under the controller. It lets me run very short motor/controller leads.(Like 12"-14") 


That little mod is worth waiting for.....It will really clean up the motor compartment.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am continuing my motor conversion thread on another site.

Ivanbennett.com/forum

It is under general chit chat, our test car, 

As my thread is getting kinda long to read and it keeps getting lost if I dont bump it up, which is not a good thing to do to everyone elses post.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could have just started a thread in the Motors section, which seems to average less than 2 threads a day.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

So just when it gets interesting, you bail out


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

True to both....

But the simple truth is, there is a small group of
people, from all over, involved and the decision
was not mine alone. I just happened to have a
really convenient test vehicle.

It is not like I'm totally bailing out or something. 

It was felt that a dedicated AC motor development
site was needed to keep from falling into a lot of the
old AC vs DC argument pit falls and distracting from
the motor development ideas.

The intent is to create a research resource for DIY AC 
propulsion. By posting both the good and bad results, 
we hope to achieve solid methods and procedures to 
allow a DIY to select, rewind and customize an AC drive
motor that is not presently available from manufacturers.

Especially noting the limited controller situation, which 
hopefully time will remedy. 

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You are aware of the big haul from the Azure Dynamics bankruptcy, that Jack Rickard and others are selling? Assuming they can get the controllers working it's hard to beat those deals.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, but a lot of those were small motors, like based on a 5HP Baldor and half of our group is outside the Con-US and the import/export deal is difficult. 

Plus they need to be under $1,000 to complete with our way of building your own.

And we are concentrating on 15-20HP core motors---something not readily available to us in an EV motor.

Controller wise, our way makes no difference what you use as long as you know what controller you are going to use before winding.

Miz

P.S.: This is easy after you go through the learning curve, much, much easier than a scratch build controller or charger.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*The new motor.*

Setting it up to do the optimization routine.









How do you like my nice anti-vibration motor mounts...LOL Cheap too!

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Fiber reinforced composite.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

OCF, Organic Carbon Fiber


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Self laminating too.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just a quick note: performed the first (of three) of the motor characterization tests. 

It did 3 -30 second pulls. It seemed to load the motor hard during the pulls.

The motor type went from type 50 (AC50) to type 0.

The slip gain went from 1.33 (for the AC50) to 3.20 for the new motor.

As a side note, there was a maximum current of 647 Amps during the pulls. If your motor internal leads are not up to snuff, it will let you know......

It seems to run normally, but the other two tests need the car in driving condition. 

That is this weeks job for me motor mounts.....

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Greetings everyone:

I am finally back into the shop after the holidays and have made a lot of progress.

The new motor is in and running, but just needs another day to be streetable so I can do the other 2/3rds of the Curtis optimization routine, which involves some 0-60 runs and varying of two different parameters to choose the best.










The encoder and Rechargecar RPM sensor mount like this.









Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That looks awesome Miz!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As a comparison: AC50 and the new motor.









I have been out of town for a while. I will be able to get back and do some more work soon.

Thx, everyone.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey Miz,

How about an update?

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry, I have been under the weather for a while, then I was out of town for a while.

Then, my lap top went south and I bought a hand held programmer. Now, Having used both, I really like it best for what I am doing. The lap top was bulky for hauling around in the other car seat while doing timed runs.

Then my previously abused main contactor coil went open....ordered another and got it in , along with a precharge resistor to work in conjunction with the 1 second precharge in the Curtis 1238, gives me about 3 seconds total, which is needed when running over recommended voltages. Thanks to Brian at HPEV for suggesting it to try.

I just got back from Tucson. From all we can determine, my motor needs rewound for a lower voltage range. Everything we have done up to now has been based on several assumptions.....One is wrong and another is questionable. When we get solid answers, we will share them.

That should do several things, Allow a lower field weakening rate, lower the resistance through the stator and Raise the top RPM.

It is more getting it to react correctly from the controller than anything. Plugging it into the city mains ...it runs like hell, but that means nothing with a controller....

Ivan has it and is rewinding it now. (He is getting pretty good) I should have it back in a week or less.

I am getting good at removing and installing it...LOL

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The second wind pattern is much closer to what I needed for my car to work in a direct drive mode.

It accelerates and keeps up with traffic nicely and has a 4,200RPM top which is 65 MPH in my car. That is good for my purposes as an around town car.

But, even after optimized, it drew 115-125 amps at cruise at 45 MPH.

We are about to embark on a different third winding. Ivan feels It will lower the current while not losing top RPM.

It will probably take a few weeks to get done because of prior scheduling.

More later, Miz

PS: The first two windings would have worked fine if a transmission were used, especially the first one, which drew 75 amps @ a 45 MPH cruise and had brute torque up to 1200 RPM. Direct drive is a REAL trick to do, because you can not just "be close", you have to have everything spot on.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

______________________________________________________
I went to Tucson today and delivered my motor for rewinding. I should have it back in a week or so.

On the road.










It looks lonely without a motor.








But I can remove it all by myself in 45 minutes.
Practice does make perfect.


One pole of the first phase plus the crossover to the second pole on top.








It is getting 56' of 18 Ga, two turns on each pole, and skipping 4 slots as 
though it was a 44 slot stator. It uses 28 strands in-hand when winding.

More pics at: 
ivanbennett dot com/forum/index.php?topic=8.msg465#msg465

Miz


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Watching the motor winding videos right now. Nice. 

Pete 

EV West just posted a video on an MR2 conversion using the AC-50 and 260ah cells. 38 cells total. Nice show of how the AC-50 does in a larger/heavier vehicle than a VW.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I picked up all of the motor parts yesterday in 
Tucson at Ivan's place and will re-assemble, install, 
optimise again today.

I am getting pretty good at it by now..........








If you look closely, you can see that some slots
are not full. They only have two phases in them. 
That is the result of our Basket weave/ skipping 
4 slots to fine tune the current and voltage needs.

The newest (Third) winding ran nicely on the 
motor shop test bench. It kicked off and ran 
well on the 30 volt scale.

It had a current draw of 1 amp per volt, which 
puts it back equal to the first winding draw and 
considerably less than the second pattern. 
(Which was our first goal)

Our second goal is to have an increased RPM 
range over the first winding, we are looking 
for 3,500 RPM or more.

The third goal is to retain the torque we had 
as it was sufficient to blast around in Phoenix 
East Valley traffic. 

Later, Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> .....
> If you look closely, you can see that some slots
> are not full.....


Hi Miz,

Reducing the amount of copper in the motor is usually counterproductive w/r/t power and efficiency. Also, it appears that you do not dip & bake or impregnate the stator with resin. While this will hold up for a short while and let you do initial tests, the wires will flex and move and fail unless they have that treatment.

Anyway, good luck with this attempt 

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I got a late start today, but got the motor assembled and installed.

I have not done the optimization routine yet, but the motor seems to have a 4,900 RPM top speed now. Meaning it has picked up some RPMs.

Tomorrow, I do the Curtis procedure and will post some more.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Day two:

I have it running up to 3,500RPM smoothly, which is where I started adjusting the F/W settings. 

It will freewheel to 4,900RPM so Hopefully It has more in it.
(one of my goals)

The F/W settings are not intuitive or easy to do. It requires a lot of driving.

The current at 45MPH is 90 amps. (one of my goals)

The slip was controller set at 3.20

It is on the charger for tomorrow AM.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hello everyone: 

After several outings, I believe I have the motor 90% optimized. It drives in traffic well and behaves. The current draw is about 90 [email protected], which is more in line with my goals than the last try.

The low end torque is great and it jumps up from zero to 45mph easily enough to stay well ahead of general traffic. My top end is about 70mph. While this does not sound like much, it is fine for city stop and go where I live.

This winding pattern has increased my top end rpm by about 700 over the last, lowered my cruise current while not losing my low and mid torque that is handy in urban driving. This winding seems to create heat more than either of the last two did. 

It costs us about $600 per wind to test this way. We are on the third for this motor and have a fourth to try as soon as Ivan gets back off the road.

If you were following this program, remember the first motor winding was two turns per pole. The second was one turn per pole(with more wire count). The third try was back to two turns per pole (back to less wire count) but skipping 4slots per phase.

The new one is a three turn per pole,( a lot less wire count) skipping 4 slots per phase type. This should raise my voltage some, reduce the current and hopefully raise the top RPM some more. We plan to create a 2" diameter hole in the front/right side of the case to place a blower and get some air flow through it. It already has a series of 1" holes around the rear bell end cover.

Stay tuned, it might take a month or so to get done.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How does the 90 amps at 45 mph compare to your efficiency with the AC50? Seems a bit on the high side.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> How does the 90 amps at 45 mph compare to your efficiency with the AC50? Seems a bit on the high side.


The ac-50 was doing about 75-80 amps ya got to remember this new motor is allmost 3 times the size of the ac-50. Where gona lower the amps some more on the next wind...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ivansgarage said:


> The ac-50 was doing about 75-80 amps ya got to remember this new motor is allmost 3 times the size of the ac-50. Where gona lower the amps some more on the next wind...


For a comparison at 45 mph constant travel (steady state), 90 Amps compared to 75-80 Amps is like a 12-18% increase in current relating to a similar percentage increase in input power assuming the same battery pack voltage. This means that the larger motor is like 15 percentage points less efficient. 

I know that size matters. Been told that many times  But typically a larger motor having more active material (copper and steel) will run more efficient at equal load compared to a smaller motor. 

I suspect we're not really getting the full story and accurate comparison. For instance, is this phase current or battery current? How reliable is the test data and what is the variance on the conditions? What was the exact battery voltage at the instant of the data capture? What was the temperature, wind speed & direction, tire pressure, etc?

Good luck with the next attempt and please keep us posted.

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am sure my comparisons are not up to some 
standards, but I attempt to make all variables as 
same as they possibly can outside of a laboratory.

Like the street is the same. The direction the same.

The temperatures are always between 80F-90F.

The pack is always just off the charger. 

Where I live, we usually have no wind at all.

Tire pressures the same.

Just me in the car.

It is battery current. (Reading from the Curtis hand held device.)

On and on.

Not laboratory-no.

But the real world is not "laboratory" either. 
_________________________________________________

I want to thank all of you that have supported me during 
the construction of my car. You have been an inspiration 
and and have helped me over a lot of hard spots. My best 
go out to all of you.

Mizlplix


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I am sure my comparisons are not up to some
> standards, but I attempt to make all variables as
> same as they possibly can outside of a laboratory.
> 
> ...


O.K. If all that is close, then you're looking at maybe a kiloWatt or 2 additional going into waste heat with the larger motor. If the old motor was 85% efficient, new one is 70%. All I'm saying is the numbers don't add up to me.


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

major said:


> O.K. If all that is close, then you're looking at maybe a kiloWatt or 2 additional going into waste heat with the larger motor. If the old motor was 85% efficient, new one is 70%. All I'm saying is the numbers don't add up to me.


Try using the knot plus knot method. Jethro bodine


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The current at 45MPH is 90 amps. (one of my goals)





mizlplix said:


> The current draw is about 90 [email protected], which is more in line with my goals than the last try.





JRP3 said:


> How does the 90 amps at 45 mph compare to your efficiency with the AC50? Seems a bit on the high side.





Ivansgarage said:


> The ac-50 was doing about 75-80 amps ya got to remember this new motor is allmost 3 times the size of the ac-50.





major said:


> For a comparison at 45 mph constant travel (steady state), 90 Amps compared to 75-80 Amps is like a 12-18% increase in current relating to a similar percentage increase in input power assuming the same battery pack voltage. This means that the larger motor is like 15 percentage points less efficient.





mizlplix said:


> .....I attempt to make all variables as
> same as they possibly can outside of a laboratory.





major said:


> O.K. If all that is close, then you're looking at maybe a kiloWatt or 2 additional going into waste heat with the larger motor. If the old motor was 85% efficient, new one is 70%. All I'm saying is the numbers don't add up to me.





Ivansgarage said:


> Try using the knot plus knot method. Jethro bodine


Hi Ivan,

Please elaborate. I might be of some help if I could get some straight answers.

major


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

major said:


> Hi Ivan,
> 
> Please elaborate. I might be of some help if I could get some straight answers.
> 
> major


Well Major, the numbers are kind of vague right now, until I get the dyno done we aren't gona have real good numbers. We have figured out what works good for torque, and what works good for RPM. Gona have to wait and see if it all can happen at once..

Help.? how many motors have you wound (EV).

Ivan


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Are you guys making any progress? Happy 4th


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ivansgarage said:


> Help.?
> Ivan


It appears you have used stainless steel terminals or maybe plated steel. You'd be smart to change to brass.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ya, we were wearing out the softer brass ones.

After we get to the final motor configuration, that is a good idea.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

To date, I have had 5 variations of motor windings tried in the car.

It was an interesting trial, but I have rewound it to the very first type I tried. (12 in hand, 2 turns, a 76 feet length of 18 ga. wire, 24 strand motor leads, good for about 240 amps continuous) 









It gives good torque out of the hole, decent mid-range torque and seems to get good mileage also. The only down side I can say is that it has a
3,500 RPM top speed and I have a direct drive car....which needs a few hundred RPMs more to keep up with city traffic.

That would not usually be a problem, but the "cheap" spot for cruising is about the 2800 RPM area. A 5.13 gear is indicated and I am saving to do the
change. (The bottom end torque is so strong that it will not even notice the difference in a 1,900 Lb car.)

My top speed will be 65 MPH.
My 50 MPH cruise RPM (for a 45 MPH zone) will be 2,700

After Ivan finishes his Dyno, I intend to take the motor to Tucson and let him wring it out to get a chart on it.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Here is a video of me driving around the block 
in my car as of today, Sept. 23, 2013.

This is using one of Ivan's motors in direct drive. 
The car is geared for 60 MPH top speed and a 
brisk take off. 

When you see me hold up my hand, I am about 
to use the regen brake to stop with no foot brake at all.

In the latter half of the video, 
a car passes me, I am doing 52 MPH in a 45 
zone and she is doing almost 70 MPH.
(for comparison purposes)







Miz


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Wants me to log in or sign up. I don't do photobucket.


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## Carl55 (Jun 9, 2012)

Worked for me.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

It took a while to load but I finally got it going. The hand switch had something with regen when you braked? It has been a long time since I have seen any of the Arizona landscape. Thanks for the ride.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice video. Guess it did not like me using my phone earlier.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, the regen is manual and mounted to the under side of the steering column and has a short handle. Look closely when 
I am just driving and you can see the clear crystal hex knob.

I must be careful because even at 10% the light car will slide the tires even at 50 MPH if I just grab a handfull. 
An 8" rotor is a wicked thing on a 1,900 Lb. car.

The popping and tinny sounding rattle are coming from the Ford 8.8 rear axle. It needs some new spider gears 
to reduce slop and the axles have side clearance to the center pin. They walk around during turns and those 
big hub caps act like speakers.

Some new gears and a little spot welding to the axle to pin contact surface will cure that....one day....

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great video, Miz! Really enjoyed watching it. On my laptop speakers it sounds like a gas turbine when you pull away.


As an aside, it really reminds me why I don't drive outside the UK, being on the other side of the road disorientates me enough to be a potential danger.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Woodsmith said:


> As an aside, it really reminds me why I don't drive outside the UK, being on the other side of the road disorientates me enough to be a potential danger.


Don't feel bad woody. Most of the people that grew up here act disoriented when they drive.


mizlplix; said:


> Yes, the regen is manual and mounted to the under side of the steering column and has a short handle. Look closely when
> I am just driving and you can see the clear crystal hex knob.
> 
> I must be careful because even at 10% the light car will slide the tires even at 50 MPH if I just grab a handfull.
> An 8" rotor is a wicked thing on a 1,900 Lb. car.


 I noticed the crystal knob and thought you was trying to build the time machine. (The first house I built I came across a bunch of old glass door knobs that had turned purple from the desert sun.) I also thought I heard the tires squeal a little at the first stop. My first thought was the old coot doesn't know how to driveD) then I realized it must be the regen. How would you rate this motor to the DC and then to the first AC you installed?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> The current at 45MPH is 90 amps. (one of my goals)


Hey Miz,

Good to see this thread pick up again. How did this current turn out? Is it still higher than with the AC50?

major


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hi, Major
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not much to say. Been using the car every day. I have just shy of 1,200 miles on it.

AC50?...That's a tuff one without any accurate measurements, but my guess is yes 
it does use slightly more current when cruising than the AC50 did. 

Being so bumpy, it varies from 75-105 amps @45 MPH. The AC50 did 70-95 or so 
under same conditions and road. (Kinda vague but my best guess)

I have been waiting on Ivan's dyno to get completed and then he can run both 
side-by-side for something real to compare.

But, sometimes life gets in the way...Ivan's house plumbing let go and by the 
time he got through, he completely re-did the bathroom, walls/windows and 
everything. So, Now he is back to the dyno. 

He did have an issue with the controller needing new firmware flashed. Brian and 
company fixed him up and it is back ready to be installed.We should see results 
as soon as he gets in from business related traveling. 

We have the AC50 (as a dyno check), the motor from my car and Ivan's Water 
cooled motor to run on the dyno. So, it should be interesting.

Car wise, I try to get in 50-100 miles per week. 

With the gearing set for the AC50/powerglide, I have a 62MPH top speed, 
which is OK for 45 MPH city traffic, But I am probably going to change the 
gears from 6.14 to maybe 5.13 and lower the cruise RPM to just below the field 
weakening base speed, hopefully lowering the current demand. We will see.

BTW: The motor runs at 85C-105C in the AZ ambient of 108F (no air through). 
The controller stays at 42C-48C (with Ivan's "Bath tub" cold plate). 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Woody: I will forgive you...

Here in the USA, We do drive on your side of the road in certain circumstances. Like in an open pit mine. It allows the empty trucks to drive on the cliff side and the loaded trucks to stay near the solid bank side to lessen road damage.

As you are leaving the pit area, There is a BIG banner strung above the road to remind you to "change back" to the other side of the road...LOL

In direct drive, it does drive a lot like a jet or turbine if you just stay up with traffic. If you force it to go faster, it uses a LOT of current, but goes faster too. A trade off , I guess.

It has a nice zero to 40 MPH sprint to it. Something the AC50 lacked and required a low gear. The AC50 had that sprint from 2,800-5,500RPM, where I didn't need it for driving in traffic. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am hoping to get down to Tucson sometime this week to work with Ivan on his dyno. He has 
done a wonderful job on it and I look forward to getting some use out of it.

I also am looking forward to the next trip when I will remove the motor from my car and dyno it.

I will be able to perform some tests on it that I could not do in the car, like a stalled rotor test. This is where 
you lock up the dyno shaft and the starting torque of the motor is transferred directly to the load cell. It allows 
you to vary the slip figure to maximumise the torque at zero shaft speed instead of just accepting the controller's 
recommended slip figure (as I was forced to do).

There are other benefits also like getting actual figures for motor performance as well as being able to perform 
some more fine tuning.

Miz


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Mizs walk around.. and drive






Hand built car utilizing a modified 1930 Ford frame, it has been shortened-crossmembers changed and boxed, with the standard straight axle/cross spring up front and a split wishbone. The rear end is an 8.8 from a 5.0L Mustang with 6.14:1 gears. It has Wilwood Dyna Lite brakes up front and 12"X2" drums on the rear. The body is made from 20 Ga. paintlock sheet metal with spruce ribs and marine plywood bulkheads. It is powered by a custom wound AC induction motor by Ivan Bennett of Tucson (www.ivanbennett.com), It is direct drive with no transmission and is managed by a Curtis 1238-7601 controller (reverse is switched by the controller). It uses Auto Meter gauges, Kirky Antique Sprint car seats and an Elcon charging system with a BMS to monitor the cells. The battery pack consists of 36-130 AH cells from China Aviation Lithium Battey. It took 7 1/2 years of my spare time to build. It weighs in at 1,900 Lbs and gets approximately 60-70- miles per charge depending on traffic and how you drive.
The top speed is programmed for 65 MPH for city driving. I did everything except for the seat upholstery and cutting the glass for the windshield.



--


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Going to Ivan's tuesday to do a trial run on his newly finished motor dyno.

It looks to be a long day.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, it WAS a long day after all. But, we got a lot done.

The Dyno worked well and we were able to do a lot of small stuff that we couldn't with the standard HPEVs software.

The more open version that Brian and HPEVs installed was what we needed.

The little AC50 performed as expected and confirmed the dyno build as accurate and predictable as far as information goes.

The only change Ivan is making is to install a more proportionate air throttling valve on the brake function. While the old one worked, it required a constant attention and delicate hand to use.

Oh, He also changed out the motor hold down nylon strap for a larger one.
(The motor sitting so close and spinning so fast was kinda intimidating.) LOL

I look forward to taking my motor down the next trip and finding out what it will do.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, everything is doing well as far as the basic car goes.

However, has anyone here ever gotten one of those ZEVA sensor loops to actually work?

I am on my second one and what a tale to tell.....

The first one never worked. I sent it back and they told me that the output MOSFET was blown. OK, I can accept that, how? They said "your gauge or wiring is bad." 

OK, It is A new Autometer gauge. So, I checked the gauge with a standard tank float assembly and it works fine.

I do continuity and ground loop tests on the wiring and find nothing wrong.

I re-installed the repaired sensor board. Drove the car until I got to 3.1 VDC standing voltage like is specified. I left the ignition on and turned the adjuster screw until the gauge went to full. By quarter turn increments, I reversed the screw until the gauge went to empty. 

The ZEVA loop is "on" at all times, even when the key is off.

I charged the pack.

The next morning, I went for a drive. When the key was first turned on, the gauge went to full. OK....After I backed out of the driveway, the gauge went nuts. It goes to empty, then full. Stays on full for a while then goes to empty again. Over and over at odd intervals. Always varying and changing. Even after the car drives 40 miles.....?

Any advice? or just throw it away?

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I know Jack Rickard has expressed similar frustration with them, I don't know if he ever got one to work correctly.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

YIKES! Don' sound good..... : (


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hello, Everyone!
_______________________________________________________________________

Where to start.......OK, I am now on my third motor and sixth rewind. That actually makes it like 
7 motors.......

I am presently running direct drive with no transmission as my GVW weight is 1,900 Lbs.

For the past year and a half, I have been working with Ivan to make a decent motor for an EV 
out of a large 20 HP industrial 3 phase motor. It has been an eye opoening experience.

Each rewind costs about three days in labor and $450 in materials. There are so many ways to wind one of these things, that it is staggering......

Our real goal was to be able to come up with a DIY AC motor in a larger class not available commercially that will pull a 4,000 Lb vehicle adequately. That means keeping up with traffic, not a Hot Rod or racer.

In my case, it is really peppy and easily jumps out in traffic well ahead of the other cars. (Easy for me to do at 1,900 Lbs)

The first motor was an AC50 kit. It was hooked up to a powerglide and a 6.14 rear gear. It was fun to drive and totally adequate for my purpose, but that direct drive Ghost kept beckoning......So we started making our own motors that would allow us to do a direct drive set up.

The first rewound core motor had an 8" X 7" long rotor size. (The same size as the whole AC50 motor case and all.)

It got re done 5 times. Each was a different winding pattern and each performed differently.
We finally got down to the last wind. It was everything I wanted (except for a few hundred RPMs more.......). I drove it 1,600 miles at this writing. 

We had another of the same motor case, but with a different stator size. The first core was from a 4 pole motor, the second was from a 2 pole motor. Both were of the same aluminum case, brand and everything. Just the stator size, slot count and rotor length were different.

As it turns out, the 2 pole motor has a smaller rotor size (By 3/4") and a shorter rotor length (5" instead of 7"), But it has much/much more back iron over the 4 pole motor. That means a smaller, higher RPM motor with a higher torque band. (In theory)

The locked rotor torque is down by 20 Ft. Lbs, but the RPM was up by almost 1,800 RPM. over the first 4 pole motor.

I am playing with the rear gearing at the moment to find the best one for my application.

I guess that catches me up for now. More later as I get more miles on it.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks for the update.



mizlplix said:


> The locked rotor torque is down by 20 Ft. Lbs, but the RPM was up by almost 1,800 RPM. over the first 4 pole motor.


On induction motors, the standard locked rotor test is done at mains frequency. But I assume you have taken this measurement with a controller (probably the Curtis) and battery supply. So the test would be at a very low frequency. Isn't the result highly dependent on the controller settings? What was the comparison of line current and frequency between the two tests?

And similarly, 1800 RPM increase is vague. Is that maximum RPM? Base speed? At equal power?

From your tone, I get the impression you think the motor using the smaller rotor is better. By your numbers, its rotor is 59% of the size of the larger rotor. Theory says it would be 59% of the torque then. Unless artificially limited by the controller or winding scheme.

With regards to the back iron, when you go from 2 poles to 4 poles, the flux through the back iron is halved. So the thick back iron section of the 2 pole stator is twice what is actually needed. Since the back iron is not the area of the magnetic circuit which saturates first, extra material there is just a waste. 

Going from a 4 pole to a 2 pole winding on a 4 pole stator would cause a problem with too thin of back iron section. As would removing material from the back iron in a properly designed machine. But adding back iron to a properly designed machine offers no advantage.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> On induction motors, the standard locked rotor test is done at mains frequency.


Granted, but we found out early on that ant testing of a controller type motor is useless on city mains voltage and freq. We initially tried using a large motor shop's test bench, which was adjustable for freq. and voltage. It was misleading and we finally built a dyno to do any more tests. Yes, our dyno uses a Curtis controller and 18- 6VDC GC batteries for power.




> And similarly, 1800 RPM increase is vague.


That means 1,800 RPM in free running mode with no load. 



> From your tone, I get the impression you think the motor using the smaller rotor is better.


For my usage it is. The bigger/longer rotor may have had lots of torque but my 1,900 Lb. car did not need that much and I was willing to trade some Torque for RPM. (A direct drive car)



> extra material there is just a waste.


All I can tell you is that The bigger rotor/stator was big on torque, but short on top end RPM in every wind we tried. We could make more torque, less torque, suck current or run really easy on current. My car needed some top speed. When the rear gears were changed to do this, the result got the speed we needed but the current draw went up all along the range. I needed to keep my 6.14 gears and needed a motor with 2,000 RPM more than I was using.

That smaller rotor/ motor was also rated as "20 HP" and used the common case and end bells as our big rotor/stator "20 HP" motor. It was just a 2 pole. 

The Electric motor rebuilder in North Carolina that has been helping us has a really good engineering staff. They claim that they can build us a copper bar fabricated rotor and cut us some thinner stator plates from better material and do wonders for our project. I think that is where we are going next.

Sorry for any confusion.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> That smaller rotor/ motor was also rated as "20 HP" and used the common case and end bells as our big rotor/stator "20 HP" motor. It was just a 2 pole.


So did you rewind it as a 4 pole or as a 2 pole?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

4 pole. 

According to the motor rebuilder in N.C. there might be a small saturation advantage to winding a 2 pole core in 4 pole configuration, but they had no guesses what it would be.

There apparently was some difference as it uses very small percentages of field weakening and the base speed set by the controller in the optimization routine was higher than the other motor. Almost twice as high.

To the untrained mind it would seem that the result is the later need for field weakening due to slower saturation. 

Any motor book or reference material we consulted danced all around the subject. Everyone we consulted in the business was close lipped and basically wanted our requirements and would then build us a motor. (Not what we were looking for.)

After all of the trials doing my motor, Ivan built his water cooled motor and it ran strong. But it took us many, many rewinds to get there. (There are so many different variations in the way a motor can be wound.)
And a Curtis controller is really picky in that regard.

The real eye opener is in the slip setting. The characterization routine sets up the controller to run the motor as it sees best. But we have found in several instances that changing the slip from the controller set value increases the low speed (Stalled rotor) torque. 

An open VCL is needed to get the adjustability needed to do a custom motor as so many parameters are fixed or limited by the HPEV VCL for their motors.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> major said:
> 
> 
> > So did you rewind it as a 4 pole or as a 2 pole?
> ...


I thought so but was uncertain after your last post. You don't see anybody using 2-pole EV motors, do you?



mizlplix said:


> According to the motor rebuilder in N.C. there might be a small saturation advantage to winding a 2 pole core in 4 pole configuration, but they had no guesses what it would be.


My guess would be practically no advantage or so small it would be difficult to even measure. 



mizlplix said:


> There apparently was some difference as it uses very small percentages of field weakening and the base speed set by the controller in the optimization routine was higher than the other motor. Almost twice as high.


I don't know the details of the windings but if the two were about the same effective turns, then the smaller rotor would need a higher base speed for equivalent voltage due to the fact that it would have less air gap flux. The smaller rotor was 59% of the size of the larger. So it would likely have 59% of the air gap flux. So it would generate only 59% of the voltage per turn per RPM of the larger rotor. Meaning that it would need to rotate 1/.59 times faster to generate the same voltage. Or 1.7 times faster for a base speed at that same phase voltage. 

That isn't too far removed from your "almost twice as high". And differences in the geometry and windings can account for some of it.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, I decided to finally finish the motor installation. This one runs like I need (to both accelerate and keep up with traffic as well as a fairly decent current draw when cruising).

To that end, I removed the motor and took it to Ivan's shop so he could place it in his oven to expand the aluminum housing and slide the stator over.
That will let me turn it around to place the leads directly under the controller. The leads are now 18" long and it looks properly done.

While in there, he moved the thermistor to the right/front so it will tie into the harness with minimum fuss.










I also had a new chrome moly driveshaft made and balanced. I moved the motor back 4.5" to have it set even with the firewall. It looks better and proper.

We also took the rotor to the local motor shop for balancing. Manny took lots of care and fussed with it for an hour to get it as close as was possible. (Ivan had had done machine work on it.) 

All I lack is the three ring terminals, which I have on order thru Amazon. 
I should get them on friday. 

I will let you know how it drives, as I could not push it past 4,100 RPMs due to the old crappy driveshaft being out of balance.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hello everyone!

The last motor was everything we had hoped.
It had plenty of torque off the line,
Good mid range torque,
Decent cruise current draw.
And it had a 5,100 RPM top end (72 MPH in my car)
(There is no real point on giving dyno figures on this one as we are going to build an improved version.)

It also had a tendency to run a touch warm.......Which will be addressed in the next model.

We are sourcing some new parts for the next motor. Rolled steel housing, thin stator plates with a better alloy, A rotor from a high efficiency model
in a 7" length. We are looking at 10HP models at the present. 

Lately we have been talking about adding a water jacket to the housing before powder coating and adding the stator. 

I will keep all of you updated as we make some progress.

Miz


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## Karnaj (Sep 13, 2014)

Miz,

I have a friend at work that has turned me on to the whole EV conversion scene. I am a Union Electrician by trade so I have a good understanding of the circuits involved in this process. Why I have chosen to post here is because you have touched on the conversion I would like to do, so I have a few questions.

I always wanted a classic car. The EV scene is perfect for that (in my mind). I am looking at getting a 32-34 Ford Tudor Sedan to do my conversion in, and have actually already started the search. So on to the questions, if you don't mind

Can the lack of aerodynamics be overcome with the selection of this car?
I have decided to go AC. How powerful of a motor would you think would be needed to keep this chassis fun, yet practical?
I would like for this to be a daily driver with a range of around 100 miles. Do you think this is feasible on this platform?
What were the biggest challenges you came across with this vehicle type?
Any advice to give a newbie with aspirations of success?

I only ask you because you are the only person I have seen with experience on the platform I want to use. Love what you have done with this car. Ate every bit of information you posted on cooling and the powerglide. Glad to see someone, with the same taste I have, made it work.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Welcome to the EV neighborhood, Karnaj!

An early Ford type chassis presents some unusual problems not seen in other types of build. The old transverse leaf spring suspension allows the car to tip back and forth and the driver's weight will keep the car uneven. 

That is ........with no people on board, it sits level. With just a driver in the car, it sits low to the left side. With a passenger and driver, it sits even again......

Normally it is just something you live with, or some go to a coilover suspension to make it individually and easy adjustable. 

I use a heavy rear anti-sway bar to maintain an even chassis to body angle. Plus when ever you split the front wishbone, you force the front axle to become a sway bar. So, mine sits very even with only 1/2" difference between a driver and empty.

Aerodynamics play a very minor role when under 35-45 mph. It is only above that speed range that aero comes into play in a major way.
(I have spent time in wind tunnels working with stock cars)

So, if you drive mainly city streets (45 mph) then I would not sweat it.
In any event, a 1932 Ford has an aerodynamically cleaner frontal shape than almost any late pick up and several sedans. Go look at some race day pics of the Utah Speed Week at the salt flats for examples.....

But, a belly pan, chopped top and lowering the ride height would do wonders to clean up the car aero wise.

If by "fun", you mean V8 power range? That is expensive with an AC system. 

If you keep the weight down to 3,000# or less, HPEVs has a couple of systems that would work. The AC75 comes to mind, coupled to a Chevy T5 and some 5.13 rear gears. That way you will have a decent take off and the overdrive will make the rear gears to be like 3.89's for a decent cruise speed. (With a tall tire over 28")

A 100 mile range will be your biggest trick. Needing a really big pack.

Just guessing.....a 140 volt system with 200AH cells if the car is around 2,800 Lbs.

Usually the space needed will tell you your pack cell size. Using under the floor (like I did) and in the trunk area will suffice for your project.

In any event, an early car platform is a fun project.

Miz


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

wvraid6 said:


> beautiful build - thanks for sharing


Hi WVraid

How about posting something useful or interesting - you are starting to look like some sort of robot

Please post something to show that you are not a robot

Sorry if you are real but we get a LOT of spam


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Good evening everyone. We have finally got our stuff together and are proceeding on with our last (I hope) motor build.

We found a supplier from South America. The motor is a 10 HP frame, Highest efficiency they make at 93% (If I am remembering right), Converter capable, 3 phase motor. 

It has a light weight rolled steel housing. It alsao has a 7" diameter stator bore (also 7" O.D. rotor), 7" length rotor (Over a 5.5" standard rotor), Plus the benefit of the latest steel lamination alloy. 

It is available in a regular base mount or a "C" face mount, which ever is suitable.

It has the better format of multiple smaller stator grooves (over only a few large ones). 

Maybe I can get Ivan to post some pics of the process. 

He has some nice equipment to work with, a burn out oven, he uses his vertical mill to remove the wiring head and his overhead shop crane to pull the old windings out. After a thorough clean up, he repaints the interior with polyurethane insulating paint. 

He hand cuts the new insulating papers, he also uses the best heat range papers commercially available as well as the slot sticks and tie string. It is topped off by commercial grade insulating varnish cured in his custom made motor curing oven.

From the wiring to the papers to the string and sticks, he uses many grades above what is taken out. I have tested his motors to above 160 C. many, many times (Having had them shut off, waited to cool some, then drove on even more). 

After experimenting with several types of wiring termination, we have decided to use dedicated wiring end leads over everything else. 

Thru case studs worked but you had to be extremely careful not to rotate a post during final torquing, a real hazard there......

Our method simply uses 2/0 leads silver brased (internally) to the wiring bundle. It really makes a nice, simple solution.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

At this date, (6/21/15) we are in the last motor build for my car. It has been a long very interesting road. (And a rough one on Ivan's fingers.)

*We learned* to not use junkyard motors, or even 10 year old motors as the metallurgy in the stator and rotor lamination's are vastly superior today than even during that preceding ten year period.

To use controller rated motor frames, as they have thinner, better and sometimes longer lamination's.

The Curtis controller likes a 10 HP size the best. It seems to be able to use it's capacity somehow more completely than even the 7.5 HP size. 

There is not really any torque advantage (to us) to going to a larger rotor/stator diameter (As we had hoped initially).

*Lithium cell wise:*

Since my pack was new, I have done the following:

1- Received the cells in the freight shipment. Lined them up and paralleled them in series for two weeks. Although they measured within .017 volt spread, their real amp capacity spread was much, much different.

2- at 1 month of running hard motor test cycles, I spent 3 days with a 5 amp lithium charger equalizing the cells a little closer.

3- at one year, I spent 3 more days chasing the low cells , again bringing them even closer to even. I paid $450 for the bare bones cell board with a small head board analog BMS system. Installed it and enabled the 5 watt top balance feature. I watched it work every daily charge and it did work to even up the top balance closer.

4- One year later, I did another manual balance of 1 day to bring up 10 of the lowest cells, which were maybe ,008 volt low.

5- NOW: 6 months later, as I watch the cell boards when the charger shuts off, I see 28 of the 38 cell boards go red, (Doing the 5 watt top balance. The other ten cells are maybe .006 volt apart. (not worth chasing.

At this point my 1,900 Lb non aerodynamic car gets about 60 miles per charge comfortably. 

BTW: the last time I went to the 60 mile point, a quick voltage check, the cells reported two of them were .01 volt or so lower than the rest. Those would be the smallest capacity of the pack and still were 132 AH (and over the purchased size). If I were to then bottom balance the pack, it would just shut off the charger that .01 volt early. 

So in reality, to me, the whole top/bottom balance deal is moot as the pack is regulated by the weakest cell in it. In both systems I would drive to the 3.1 volt per cell point and stop as I have about 3 miles left after that point in my pack. A lesson I had to learn after the car was built, by experience. 

Once when I had it bottom balanced, I could get 4 miles after the 3.1 volt per cell point. ......... Not worth the 3 days per year I spent when I can allow an automated system watch and protect the pack for me at no extra labor. (Just my opinion)

And finally yes, If I really had balanced my pack individually with a small charger, cell by cell, to .006 Volts per cell in the first place, instead of assuming the parallel ing was close, I could/would run without a BMS just fine. (Knowing now that I have a decently grouped bunch of cells).

Thanks to all who participated, commented and otherwise altered our thought processes on the project.

Mizlplix


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## sdev (May 3, 2015)

Just finished reading all this. Miz. Phew.



Many many thanks.


I just wish I didn't read the part that says 'not to bother with Junkyard motors. I hope to give it a go very shortly and have two motors for such a purpose.


Many many thanks again


Stephen


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