# 1995 Eagle Talon AWD : Kostov 11 : Soliton 1



## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I've been reading, researching, and planning for a long time. I picked up a '95 Eagle Talon AWD in April of 2012. Its not the 'best' candidate for an EV, but I like the style, the AWD, and the aerodynamics (0.29 Cd). The 2.0L turbo is very snappy once it spools up. I did some power comparisons in this thread and decided on the K11-250 motor. The Soliton 1 followed right behind it. Batteries are still up in the air, but the plan is 60Ah to 90Ah Sinopolies or CALB greys. Voltage will probably start around 160 for preliminary tests and then work up to 300V for the final design. It should yield about 160kW at about 6C (with the 90Ah). I could push the 60Ah harder, but I'll see how things evolve.

My blog is evtalon.blogspot.ca and I will be trying to keep that up-to-date as possible. I've been going through all the mechanical and have just started on the conversion. So far, I've pulled the engine, dropped the exhaust and separated the transmission.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Glad to see you start a thread!

That's going to make a nice EV.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Thanks RW!

A bit over-due, but progress is slow as you well know 

This is a great forum for discussing possibilities and solutions. Every one of us is custom building something, so its always nice to get some other opinions and input. As well as draw on the extensive experience in these forums!

So I'm all ears


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Glad to see you here.

The 0.29 Cd is a really good thing... I know what I'm talking about considering my 0.38 Cd Smart fortwo (aka little Brick!)...
What kind of schedule do you expect? Date to first road test? Date of purchase of cells?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I had a 95 Tsi, bought new and drove the crap out of it.... fun when you keep the turbo spooled up, but pretty heavy around town. I always had problems with windshield fogging like crazy in the winter.

you're going to have to retain power steering probably.... so plan on an electric pump for that.

EV build wise..... an 11" motor will be a screamer, and w/ awd you might keep it on the road.  I would suggest NOT 'phasing' in more batteries for higher voltage later. You really don't want to deal with different ages of cells potentially from different batches, changing your charger, dc-dc, etc. Also, a word of caution in going over 160v nominal is that components get a lot harder to find and much more expensive. To keep weight and cost down, I'd stick w/ 156v nominal x 100ah 'new' CALBs unless you REALLY need more range. You're going to run out of room pretty quick since the drive train limits where you can hang battery boxes, unless you give up the micro rear seat/cargo area completely.....

oh, just checked your blog.... was wondering if you would have room for an 11". you might be better to switch to twin 9" ?! If are still considering an offset, ReBirth has done some pretty wild twin adaptors that are offset.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yabert said:


> Glad to see you here.
> 
> The 0.29 Cd is a really good thing... I know what I'm talking about considering my 0.38 Cd Smart fortwo (aka little Brick!)...
> What kind of schedule do you expect? Date to first road test? Date of purchase of cells?


Hi Yabert - no real deadlines yet. Right now its a project wedged into the usual chaos of life with kids in sports  I have some Sinopoly 60Ah cells and a PL6 to do some comparisons against the CALB greys. So I'll see how it plays out.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

dtbaker said:


> I had a 95 Tsi, bought new and drove the crap out of it.... fun when you keep the turbo spooled up, but pretty heavy around town. I always had problems with windshield fogging like crazy in the winter.


It is a fun little car 

This was my first winter and I only had fogging issues once - it was extremely cold and there were other vehicles with window issues as well. I find keeping the AC running dries the air and reduces fogging as well. One of my older vehicles had a slow leak from the block heater - and it was a nightmare. But so far, so good with this one!




dtbaker said:


> you're going to have to retain power steering probably.... so plan on an electric pump for that.


Yep, already have a PM motor from another project that should do the trick. I'm thinking about a PWM circuit to modulate pressure and maximize efficiency of the stock gear pump. I'm also keeping the AC - currently investigating electric options, but am also planning to run it off the secondary shaft.



dtbaker said:


> Also, a word of caution in going over 160v nominal is that components get a lot harder to find and much more expensive. To keep weight and cost down, I'd stick w/ 156v nominal x 100ah 'new' CALBs


My motivation in going HV was to keep max current lower and thus reduce resistive losses and potential thermal issues. Perhaps phasing will be a bad idea, don't know? The spare tire well is cavernous and there is alot of room under the hood. I might even do a small pack in the existing fuel tank location (under the rear seat) - not sure about dimensions though, I have to remove the tank yet.

We discussed the dual 9's in my other thread - I still think that setup looks mean and would generate some interesting discussions at the coffee shop. But the added weight and cost wasn't a benefit. And a 9 would still interfere with my transfer case.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Latest Problem:*

The K11 interferes with my transfer case (red line). So I'm going to have to come up with an offset drive setup. I really don't want to remove the AWD (thats why I picked this car, after all !!!). So time to get designing and see how a silent chain drive might work....

Its a common setup in almost all transfer cases in SUVs and 4x4 trucks. Correctly designed they can run quietly at 99% efficiency and 40m/s linear speed.

I'll have a very tight center to center on the shafts and the chain case will be extremely compact (2-3"). Anything wider and the motor will interfere with my front frame rails.

Below is only an example of an NP242 from a Jeep. I'll try a similar idea, just much more compact. 6061-T6 aluminum case/adapter plate combination. Time to get cracking on a design....


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

Old.DSMer said:


> *Latest Problem:*
> 
> The K11 interferes with my transfer case (red line). So I'm going to have to come up with an offset drive setup. I really don't want to remove the AWD (thats why I picked this car, after all !!!). So time to get designing and see how a silent chain drive might work....
> 
> ...


What's inside that offending case? Any chance to just modify that case, perhaps just cut it along the green line and seal it against your motor?

It's hard to judge from the picture, but if the gears don't interfere and the cap has no structural duty it could be possible.


Regards
Ektus.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I know you were going to keep the clutch initially are you still going to try and keep it with the chain drive?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Ok dumb question: what kind of adapter are you planning? Pretty certain my CAN-EV adapter will clear the red / green line area if I whacked part of it off. Probably not even need to whack stuff off the adapter because it sits back about 2 inches . clutched or not, wouldn't matter, but the Ranger shifts so much faster and easier with the clutch


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Old.DSMer
I have the exact same problem on my 4wd transaxle! Been limiting myself to motor diameters ~220mm/8.5" which really hits the power capability. Alternative is a longer motor, btu I am talking AC motors.

That Kostov is a great choice of motor in my opinion, have you already purchased it? What power/performance are you looking for? Would you consider an AC motor to avoid the offset drive? There are various options. I'm contemplating a few, but for power density, a dual EMRAX motor setup seems ideal, 225mm in diameter, and potentially 200kW (gross input to controller) max and nearly 100hp continuous with liquid cooled BLDC motors, 2300Euro each.

I found a few US companies offering suitable AC motors but dismissed them as I am in the UK and the cost to buy from US would be prohibitive.

What is the maximum diameter your transfer box will allow? it looks quite similar to mine. Mine is in a Toyota Rav4 by the way.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Ektus said:


> What's inside that offending case? Any chance to just modify that case, perhaps just cut it along the green line and seal it against your motor?
> 
> It's hard to judge from the picture, but if the gears don't interfere and the cap has no structural duty it could be possible.
> 
> ...


Hi Ektus,

I already thought about that 

Transfer case is about 1/4" at its thinnest point. Full of 2 large bevel gears and tapered bearings. No chance of modification 

Thanks for the idea,though!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> I know you were going to keep the clutch initially are you still going to try and keep it with the chain drive?


Yep, still keeping the clutch. The stock synchros are not at all forgiving. In the end if I find I can easily shift clutchless, I might remove it. But the first go around will keep the clutch.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> Ok dumb question: what kind of adapter are you planning? Pretty certain my CAN-EV adapter will clear the red / green line area if I whacked part of it off. Probably not even need to whack stuff off the adapter because it sits back about 2 inches . clutched or not, wouldn't matter, but the Ranger shifts so much faster and easier with the clutch


Hi piotrsko, the adapter itself could be trimmed to clear that area. Problem is that the K11 motor is the diameter of the green line. The transfer case is about 6" thick and interferes with the motor. I'd require an adapter at least 6" thick to move the motor away from the transmission and clear the transfer case. I cannot do that because the motor would then hit the front frame rail. So the only option is to offset it.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Old.DSMer
> I have the exact same problem on my 4wd transaxle! Been limiting myself to motor diameters ~220mm/8.5" which really hits the power capability. Alternative is a longer motor, btu I am talking AC motors.
> 
> That Kostov is a great choice of motor in my opinion, have you already purchased it? What power/performance are you looking for?
> ...


Hi tylerwatts, interesting your Rav4 is so similar. What year is it?

I investigated some AC options, but everything was out of my price range. The K11 and Soliton1 yielded the best bang for the buck so to speak. And I was graciously able to drive RW Audios car - he's using a Warp11. AWESOME. And he didn't even have his final battery pack complete! So, yes, I already have the Soliton and K11.

Ultimately if I can run 200-250hp, I would exceed the factory output and be very happy. Hopefully without breaking any drivetrain components!

My limit is also about 8.5" diameter. As stated above, I'm going to offset the motor to increase clearance and improve center of gravity slightly.

My week is swamped, but I'm trying to get something drafted up in the next week or two.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi. Mine is 02, the last series of true 4x4 models.

Can you post a top view photo of your trans in the nine bay pleas? Is your motor a twin haft? I wonder how much length you can save on the motor by removing the fan and shortening the end housing. For cooling I would then consider a turbo cooling kit from evtv that I would force the air into the motor from the coupling end and offset the coupling/mating to the trans to clear the motor and transfer box.

But this is all speculation without a photo of your engine bay. Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with your vehicle, this was the first time I'd heard of one. By good looking car though! And love the awd!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh I read it is sister to the Mitsubishi eclipse! Very nice cars those! Bullet proof mechanicals so should love the ev motor. Forget first gear though, waste of time with the Kostov11. I'm seriously thinking the best option is to strip a stock manual trans and keep 2 optimal gears for a low and high speed that should mean one doesn't need a clutch either.

I'll admit I've been thinking of it with AC motors in mind and using speed control when changing gear to match motor and gear speed to save the synchros. But it should be ok with a light Kostov DC motor.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hey tylerwatts,

The 2002 is still one of the 1st gen. And wasn't it available as an EV? Or was that version only FWD?

I definitely wanted the AWD for winter months. And the added traction in the summer couldn't hurt. Especially if I make it out to the drag track  Yep, its the sister of the 2g Eclipse.

Things are so busy, I don't foresee making it into the garage for another week. Modifying the case is something Yabert and I have discussed a little outside the forum.

I have some pics of the ICE removal in my blog. Also attached a couple I found online. The outside tips of the starter ring gear are about 10.75". And it runs behind the transfer case - just over 1". I'll have to do more detailed measuring of the motor to see if there is enough room for mods.

Which brings up a new question -- has anyone with a clutch ever had issues with the cooling fan sucking in clutch dust and contaminating the motor bearings?

The gear ratios are very tight. I doubt I will use 1st or 2nd and I might remove those gears at a later date.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Old.DSMer
Mine is first of the early second gen models. 2002-2005, bofre the facelift when the drivetrain was made 'on-demand awd' with a viscous coupling (I think) meaning it was predominantly fwd most of the time.

Removing the gears sounds a good plan. And if 3-4-5 are close you could lose another and then only shift front-back like a high-low shifter. Might not need the clutch then.

Your bearings should be sealed so no problems with clutch dust, I'm sure the Kostov's are sealed! Clutch dust is not much different to brush dust, so at service intervals just clean out the dust with a small wire brush and air gun. Not heard of any problems with bearings from it.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Old.DSMer said:


> Which brings up a new question -- has anyone with a clutch ever had issues with the cooling fan sucking in clutch dust and contaminating the motor bearings?


Why suck? The Kostov motors don't push the air from Commutator End to Drive End?
I think the answer is yes, like the Warp motors done.

It's nice to see more picture of your problematic. Custom and strange shaped adapter will be needed.
If I consider longer adapter and shorter motor (K11 modified or K11 Alpha is 1.5'' shorter!!) I hope there are enough place to mount motor in straight line with your transmission.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hi Yabert,
I was worried about the clutch dust being blown from the drive end into the motor bearings and brushes. Probably not going to be an issue or we would have seen this problem in other conversions.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Old.DSMer
> Mine is first of the early second gen models. 2002-2005, bofre the facelift when the drivetrain was made 'on-demand awd' with a viscous coupling (I think) meaning it was predominantly fwd most of the time.


I see, so its the 'traditional' 4x4 where you should only use it on slippery surfaces. But then you know you are actually IN 4X4 when you want it! My Jeep used to have an extra differential inside the transfer case for 'full-time' 4wd. But that meant you could only have 1 wheel transferring power. It still worked very well and was much better than just RWD. The Talon has a viscous coupling. Given its age, it still seems to be performing great. I hope it holds up to the large torque from the electric motor.



> Removing the gears sounds a good plan. And if 3-4-5 are close you could lose another and then only shift front-back like a high-low shifter. Might not need the clutch then.


Exactly. It would save weight and reduce rotating inertia and oil drag.

Do you have a build thread?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

No mine is full time 4wd. No transfer case. it is almost the same layout as yours but with central open differential rather than viscous coupling.

No build thread as I have no build as yet. Got loads of info off the web adn forum and still strategising which direction to go. No options are popping up al the time and there is litle documentation inteh west of Eastern Eurpoe's products and there seems to be abooming industry with great produts that I am trying to fin about, and also chinese (how dare I, I know) products are available and at good quality.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

You do have more options in Europe. Especially with AC - as well as product support.

I would say the east has definitely evolved and improved. But I would not volunteer to be the first tester. But thats just me. I guess I prefer more tried and true products


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Transfer Case Update*

I've been spending alot of time scouring the web for existing parts I could modify. I also investigated a custom chain-sprocket design.

Turns out the most cost effective will be to utilize existing transfer case parts. The bearings, seals and couplings are readily available - just a matter of determining what will go where.

I still have to source an external electric oil pump because the chain requires pressurized lubrication.

I'm waiting on final costing of the aluminum case and 4140HTSR shaft - but have most of the internals worked out already. 4140HTSR is overkill, but I have access to some crops. The images don't show the flywheel or clutch, but they will be retained. The output shaft end copies the factory crank.

Sadly, I could not get enough room by eliminating the fan and shortening the rotor. And I didn't really want to hack up my nice new motor anyway 

I still have to finish the motor mount for the auxiliary side. It will also incorporate an idler bearing for the front drive shaft (which was previously bolted to the engine block). Fun times....


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

How are you supporting the driving gear and clutch? The case end should be easy, however on the motor end are you going to add extra support (bearing) or just use a pilot bearing on the flywheel or similar and let the motor bearings take the load?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Driving sprocket will be directly attached to the K11. I can't find a bearing part number on that motor, but it looks beefy. And the shaft is very short, so it will have a small bending load.

Output sprocket will be attached to a double-supported shaft. I think I might replace the spherical with a tapered bearing and lock nut - just like a wheel hub. That will enable me to preload the drive end and keep things rigid.

The flywheel/clutch will mount up just like the original (not modeled up yet).


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice drawing Old.DSMer...
But sad solution! So much complex. And all this will reduce efficiency and *reliability* while increasing the weight...

Maybe can you send me the transmission and motor CAD (step, igs or ?) and I can try to find simpler solution on my side. I'm specially interested by your problem.

If no, I suggested you to build a double-supported hollow shaft on the motor side. Rigidity will be increase and the sealing will be easy. It's how than most manufacturer build their single speed gearbox.
You need to know than motor shaft is floating (can move on his axis (I guess 0.015'' to 0.060'')) to allow his expention under heating. Maybe that can cause your drive sprocket to move a bit (a problem?).


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Modifying the K11 Motor*

*Maybe a Solution?*


Thanks for your persistence in talking me out of the transfer case concept Yan and tylerwatts!!!! 

In the spirit of the almighty KISS principle, I tore apart the K11 motor.

I can gain at least 2.5" by removing the fan and modifying the aluminum end cap. By the looks of that fan, an external unit with a shroud and some ducting would probably work much better anyway. If I trim a bit of the steel motor housing, I might even be able to gain 3".

So that all means I should be able to use a 3" spacer plate with a direct coupling to the flywheel/clutch. Yay!!! 

So anyone have suggestions on removing that bearing? My splitter does not fit between the fan and race. And I don't want to use my gear puller because it only pulls on the outer race. So....what next?????


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Modifying the K11 Motor*

I just used a gear puller. I too don't have my fan connected because it is too long to fit in the VW with the fan connected. I too plan on a shroud with blower hole and also feel it will be better. Mostly because I have that for my GE motor and you really don't need the internal fan. The other benefit is that removing the fan gives you access to the end shaft for other things. Like RPM sensors. 

I had it in my VW Bug for awhile and now its going in my VW Roadster. Installed yesterday. Still need to build a shroud. For short runs it works great without the fan. Lots of open area for heat to just dissipate. For long runs I will need a fan. 

I like my Kostov 11"

Pete 

Mine is the older model that has a different sized shaft and bolt pattern. I put in a new brush ring and bearings and brushes. 

Heat the bearing before pulling.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Thanks onegreenev! Glad to hear the motor runs well without the fan. External cooling has been discussed elsewhere and I'm sure there are some good resources.

I'd like to keep and re-use the bearing. If its heated, won't that toast the seals?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yea thats the problem but if you more warm the bearing and direct maybe a tight flame to the inner race that slips on the shaft you may have no issues. Just flaming the whole bearing would not be so hot. I am more advocating to warming and not like red hot heating. Just warmer than the shaft. Might help slip it off.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> ... Glad to hear the motor runs well without the fan. ...


Plus you'll have the added benefit of less noise. Those Kostov radial fans are extremely noisy at high rpms...


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Hey Old.DSMer, are you in Alberta? I see you had a chance to drive RWAudio's Porsche in the Calgary area. I'm up in Edmonton, I'm helping with an EV and alternative fuel vehicle show and conference here April 27th. Sounds like RWAudio is bringing his car, should be a fun time! I put up a post about it under chit chat, check it out on this link.

Glad to hear you're going with shortening the motor over trying an offset drive! As for the transmission, I stripped out the transmission gears on the mini truck as direct drive through the transfer case to the diff gave a good ratio and I figured I wouldn't need any lower gearing which is all the trans would have provided anyways. I kept the empty transmission case as a convenient way to mount the motor to the integrated transfer case. It does work well in direct drive 95% of the time but there are situations where having a gear or two lower would be nice and it was a lot of work and hassle to disassemble the transmission and get it back together with missing gears! If I were doing it again I would just leave it as is. I don't know what the drag penalty would have been but in your case I doubt removing only one or two gears would make a noticeable difference. Unless someone has some data to prove me wrong? I like data! 

Switching to lighter weight synthetic fluids will have a large impact for you though with two diffs and the transfer case along with the transmission. I noticed a big difference on cold mornings when I switched my trans and transfer case from 75W90 to this synthetic ATF, 
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9. 

I did a powertrain drag test with the wheels in the air before I switched and will do another before and after I switch the diff fluids to synthetic as well. It took 3.5kw to spin the tires 60km/hr in 4wd with the original fluids, it only took ~8kw to drive the truck that fast!

Good luck!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I am more advocating to warming and not like red hot heating. Just warmer than the shaft. Might help slip it off.


I might have to try this - but its going to be very difficult (almost impossible) to heat JUST the race. I'll have to think about it a little more.

I a previous job, we did heat races - but they were all 2pc bearings. I've never done it with a sealed 1pc.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

azdeltawye said:


> Plus you'll have the added benefit of less noise. Those Kostov radial fans are extremely noisy at high rpms...


That will be a nice perk. Based on the shape of the fan, it was designed to move some air. But not necessarily efficiently or quietly. The K11-Alpha probably has a better, more efficient cooling setup with the external fan.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I have a nice mapp gas torch and can get right in close and quick. Heats fast and then give a sec for the heat to sink in then pull. I understand the issue with sealed bearings. Not too hot and get in close.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Jesse67 said:


> Hey Old.DSMer, are you in Alberta? I see you had a chance to drive RWAudio's Porsche in the Calgary area. I'm up in Edmonton, I'm helping with an EV and alternative fuel vehicle show and conference here April 27th.


Yep, Edmonton as well. I was going to look you up and get more info on that show. I'll definitely be there to view/chat! But no vehicle entry for me....



Jesse67 said:


> ...stripped out the transmission gears on the mini truck as direct drive through the transfer case to the diff gave a good ratio and I figured I wouldn't need any lower gearing which is all the trans would have provided anyways. I kept the empty transmission case as a convenient way to mount the motor to the integrated transfer case. It does work well in direct drive 95% of the time but there are situations where having a gear or two lower would be nice and it was a lot of work and hassle to disassemble the transmission and get it back together with missing gears! If I were doing it again I would just leave it as is. I don't know what the drag penalty would have been but in your case I doubt removing only one or two gears would make a noticeable difference. Unless someone has some data to prove me wrong? I like data!


I'm planning on keeping the tranny stock for now. If I do end up removing any gears, I'll probably do a full rebuild and upgrade the internals to Stage 2 or 3 class so they can handle more torque. But I need to focus on getting it on the road first 



Jesse67 said:


> Switching to lighter weight synthetic fluids will have a large impact for you though with two diffs and the transfer case along with the transmission.


Definitely agree - I switched everything to Redline as soon as I got the car.



Jesse67 said:


> I did a powertrain drag test with the wheels in the air before I switched and will do another before and after I switch the diff fluids to synthetic as well. It took 3.5kw to spin the tires 60km/hr in 4wd with the original fluids, it only took ~8kw to drive the truck that fast!


I plan on doing some wheels-in-the-air drag tests as well. I might even pull off the brakes to see how much extra drag they add compared to spinning just the drivetrain by itself.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I have a nice mapp gas torch and can get right in close and quick. Heats fast and then give a sec for the heat to sink in then pull. I understand the issue with sealed bearings. Not too hot and get in close.


I can borrow one - so I might give it a try.

I was also thinking that I'm not planning on keeping the fan anyway, so I can afford to "massage" it a little so my splitter fits


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Motor / adapter updates*

I'll be going with a 3" adapter plate - hopefully aluminum if its not too expensive. A hub-style adapter with double taper-lock coupling and an idler bearing. I have an aluminum flywheel, so the rotating mass will be less than original - but I'm worried about that cantilever load. So for the extra $100, I'm going to add an idler bearing.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Awesome! Another Edmonton Ever, glad to hear you can come to the show as a spectator at least! There are a few other local conversions and a home built reverse trike in the area coming to the show along with a few Tesla Roadsters and at least one Model S. Also just got confirmation that the Reynolds Alberta Museum is bringing out a 1920 Detroit Electric! 

Nice modeling, is that SolidWorks?. You may have some issues getting that double taperlock coupling to spin true, I had to play with individual bolt torques to get my single taperlock coupling true and I don't have a flywheel. I know Randy at CanEv uses straight bore machined couplings with 3 set screws to avoid the wobble. The pilot bearing will help with the load but if your coupling isn't true then the much smaller motor bearing could fail as each constrained end of the coupler fights the other.

Good Luck!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice design Old.DSMer! I prefer this one...



Jesse67 said:


> You may have some issues getting that double taperlock coupling to spin true,.... The pilot bearing will help with the load but if your coupling isn't true then the much smaller motor bearing could fail as each constrained end of the coupler fights the other.


I gave it similar advice by mail, but I was more concerned about eccentricity between the motor centering device and the bigger bearing. Any small offset (few 0.001'') can cause stress on motor bearing and shaft.

I'm not particularly concerned about the concentricity of the keyless bushing. Fenner drive say: _''Exceptional concentricity with thru-bored hubs. Fenner Drives Keyless Bushings are precision machined to maximize concentricity and minimize runout. The final installed concentricity of mounted components depends on several variables, including the components themselves and the installation technique employed''_

Maybe ask to Fenner engineer what is ''exceptional concentricity''. 0.0003''? 0.001''? 0.004''?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hey Jesse67 - it sounds like its going to be a great show. I'm looking forward to meeting some other people and seeing some other conversions up close and personal.

Yep, SW - love it. Don't know how I ever used to design in the old AutoCAD days!!!

There is an issue if the 2 bearings or the double-taper lock don't align. The motor bearing will surely lose over that large idler. The adapter plate & coupler will be machined, so I know the bores will be true. I will have to investigate the tolerance of the double-taper lock. Also, I will be assembling the motor/adapter/coupler before mating the transmission. This will give me the ability to run the setup and ensure everything spins free. If I can't spin it by hand - then there is a problem.

I also notice some wear and leakage on my transfer case and axle seals. So I'm sourcing those and will do a full change-out while I have all this apart. New lower control arms/ball joints are going in as well.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Excellent, I've really enjoyed the same aspect, it's great seeing what solutions other people come up with for similar problems. 

If you can assemble the taperlock adapter on the motor shaft before installing the idler bearing in place you'll be able to measure the eccentricity of the coupler and adjust the taperlock screws to true it up. You would just need to not have that shoulder on the coupler and then keep the bearing in place with a snap ring instead.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Motor / adapter updates*



Old.DSMer said:


> I'll be going with a 3" adapter plate - hopefully aluminum if its not too expensive.


wow, 3" thick.... you DEFINITELY should pony up for AL. You might consider milling out pockets, and leaving a few ribs to keep it stiff.... but mill pockets to lighten it up! Check out the 'performance' adaptors that Rebirth does. Or, fabricate thickness where needed by welding plate and tubes, truing up bores and faces when machining...


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Jesse67 said:


> ...measure the eccentricity of the coupler and adjust the taperlock screws to true it up. You would just need to not have that shoulder on the coupler and then keep the bearing in place with a snap ring instead.


I thought about eliminating the shoulder - but then thought - why not make the larger bearing take the clutch thrust load also? That way, the motor bearing only takes radial.

And why not take it to the extreme --- I could simply eliminate the motor bearing! But for the first go-around, I'll see how everything lines up. There appears to be almost .002 play in the end cap of the motor. So I could assemble everything "snug" and let the centers find their own alignment by running it before installing. If that doesn't work, I'll figure something else out.


----------



## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Motor / adapter updates*



dtbaker said:


> wow, 3" thick.... you DEFINITELY should pony up for AL. You might consider milling out pockets, and leaving a few ribs to keep it stiff.... but mill pockets to lighten it up! Check out the 'performance' adaptors that Rebirth does. Or, fabricate thickness where needed by welding plate and tubes, truing up bores and faces when machining...


Yep, 6061-T6. I already have a waterjet shop lined up and they have material in stock. I revised the design slightly to use a 1" for the transmission flange and a 2" for the motor mount. Saved some weight on the outer edges. Entire assembly is 36 lb with hardware.

This old sketch uses 3, 1" plates. But the two motor ones are the same profile and the shop has a crop of 2" that fits perfectly. I'll dowel everything once its bolted together (before final machining). That will keep the plates from potentially sliding under torque.

Speaking of which -- the K11 has 8 - 3/8" bolt holes on the face. I originally planned on using them for my mount. and with 8, I thought they would be more than enough to clamp the faces and hold torque. 
*
*BUT**
When I removed the 4 bolts holding the end cap - I realized they were only 8mm cap screws (or maybe 1/4"?). Extremely SMALL!!!

So I will definitely be banding the motor and adding a torque arm.

Has anyone mounted these with just the face bolts on both ends? If so, have you had any torque issues???


----------



## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Motor / adapter updates*

You can remove the shoulder and use a spiral snap ring in it's place which can easily take thrust loads but would still allow assembly without the idler bearing to check eccentricity. But, unless you can pre load the idler bearing somehow (a large nut on the coupler instead of a snap ring) or the coupler slides on the motor shaft, all three bearings will share the clutch load to some degree depending on their axial stiffness. I don't think the thrust loads will be a problem though, I believe most people with clutched setups have the motor bearings taking the load. Have you heard of anyone with failed motor bearings due to thrust from the clutch activation?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hey Jesse67, Thanks for the tip on the spiral rings.

I assume you mean the Spirolox/Smalley. I have used them before with some success. However, in cyclic thrust loading, I have seen most of them fail - usually due to a combination of groove fatigue and ring movement. What we used to do is create a tight tolerance split retainer out of steel and then secure the split retainer with a Spirolox. That setup was very tolerant of thrust loading.

When I took apart the K11, I found it similar to the image below. Only 1 bearing supports thrust loading from the clutch, in this case - the small one. And that is supported with a wave spring (in fact, my K11 has one on each end). I don't know the internal rotor float end-to-end, but the DSM clutches have a very short throw. And thus, do not fair well with any external movement. So I'm designing that large bearing to sit tight and support the clutch thrust. Preload won't be required because the only time thrust is present is when the clutch is applied. I do agree, it would be better to have it constantly preloaded, but I think it will be fine in this application. Its WAY oversized simply due to the dimensions I need.

I have not heard of any motor bearings failing due to thrust loading. For my application in particular, I'm worried about excessive axial play -- and I plan on measuring this before installing since my motor/adapter/transmission will be bench assembled.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> I have not heard of any motor bearings failing due to thrust loading. For my application in particular, I'm worried about excessive axial play -- and I plan on measuring this before installing since my motor/adapter/transmission will be bench assembled.


The D.E. bearing should have the outer race retained in the DEH (drive end head). The CE (comm end) bearing is a floater axially so heat elongation of the shaft won't ruin the bearings. The wave spring washer in the CEH is there to prevent the outer race of the CE bearing from spinning in the bore.

DIY EV motors don't typically run into thrust load failures, but other applications do, like fork trucks where they have helical pinions on the motor shaft. It is odd to me that your motor did not have the DE bearing outer race retained. Most DC traction motors do.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yes Major, I expected it to be retained as well.

But nothing - just a wave spring.

Oh, and the threaded hex "pins" used for the proximity sensor were FINGER TIGHT 

I'm so glad I took this apart and found the problem. Imagine the destruction those would create flying out in the bell housing at 5000 RPM


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Adapter Plate Update*

I recently received my 6061-T6 plates from water-jet cutting.

I did a quick test fit and then proceeded to finish the drilling/tapping/assembly.

Its currently at the machine shop awaiting milling/boring/tapping. The motor coupler is also in process. More pics on the blog.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Adapter Plate Update*

Looks good! Are you going to take any material out to lighten it up at all? How square are the edges on the thick piece after being water jet cut?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Adapter Plate Update*



Jesse67 said:


> Looks good! Are you going to take any material out to lighten it up at all? How square are the edges on the thick piece after being water jet cut?


I have 7 bolt holes for mounting the motor so I'm not sure how much space will be left for material removal. But I will review once I get the motor mounted. As it stands, the mounting plate only weighs about 34 lb.

Water jet is awesome. The curf is less than 1/16" on the 2" plate and virtually perfect on the 1". With slow enough feed rates, water jet is superb (even on steel).


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Adapter Plate Update*

That's not too bad, I would think you could probably cut that in half with a fair bit of milling but it may not be worth it.

That is pretty good for cutting 2" thick! Looks like a pretty good surface finish as well.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yeah, not sure of the ROI for the extra milling work.

The cut and finish is perfect. Similar to a casting.

I've had similar results with steel as well. Much smoother than laser or plasma.

But with any cutting, it really depends on feed rate - too fast and the edges get rough and curf gets bad. Even with water jet.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Mount Plate Update*

Just a little update. Got the machined adapter plate, coupling hub, steady bearing, and taper lock (and an eBay aluminum flywheel!).

I mounted the motor plate and did some trimming to clear the transfer case.

I then dropped the complete assembly into the engine bay to check clearances and start fabbing up the last bracket. There is literally nothing holding the aluminum end plate to the steel motor housing (4 - 8mm cap screws). So I have to do something to handle the torque loads of this motor - otherwise it will just shear away from the aluminum end cap. I mocked up some brackets, but I'm not quite happy with them. They still allow shear loading the 4 end cap bolts. Back to the design board.

More pics on the blog.

Big show in Edmonton tomorrow - definitely heading over to check it out!


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Mount Plate Update*

Looks like you're making progress, nice work. 

It should be great show tomorrow, I was setting up this afternoon and some of the vehicles are already there, the Biodiesel Jet cars, one of the three Tesla Roadsters, the Sun Country Highway charging stations are wired up and ready for people to charge up if needed, one of the Mitsubishi I-Mievs is there as well. Snagged a ride in the Tesla after they unloaded it, owner said, hop in we need to blow the dust off it from the ride in the trailer....  wow is all I can say....

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84277

http://solaralberta.ca/events/future-transportation-symposium-and-car-show

See you there!

Jesse


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Although that looks like a lot of machining to make it fit, it's likely still much simpler than the previous plan.

Have you got your hands on any of the sinopoly cells yet? Is that still the plan?

ohhh... and when you get the batteries installed, don't "forget" to turn off the maintenance switch when installing zip ties on the wiring.... 300v really isn't as bad as I thought, but it sure does let you know it's there. I won't be forgetting again.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Good job Old.DSMer! 
I like how all this turn.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

After many months of life responsibilities, I have FINALLY made more progress worthy of updating here. More pictures and detail on the blog, but below is the summary pics.

As of now, the wheels spin under electric power. The hydraulic clutch works perfectly (I was worried about the exact flywheel offset). I've sourced the wires I need for instrumentation. And the next big step will be to get the body rust fixed so I can drive around on a whopping 36V of behemoth lead acid power  Can't wait!!!

I've also been doing some Sinopoly testing and comparing data with RWAudio. Hopefully some interesting info will develop with a little more work - mostly from RWAudio --- so thank you for that!!!!!. More info on his testing here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=359431#post359431


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Looks great! Can't wait to hear about the first test drive.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yup, with any luck I'll make it half way down the street and back again in first gear. Kinda disappointing after that Porsche cruise


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Definitely looking good Old.DSMer! Glad you had clearance round the transfer case.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> Yup, with any luck I'll make it half way down the street and back again in first gear. Kinda disappointing after that Porsche cruise


lol, and that was nothing, she's pretty quick on 300v now. You'll enjoy just making it move under electric power, doesn't matter how fast it goes right now.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Definitely looking good Old.DSMer! Glad you had clearance round the transfer case.


Thanks. Its still pretty tight - about 1/8" to the edge of the motor housing. And only about 1" to the frame rail where it starts to taper back.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> lol, and that was nothing, she's pretty quick on 300v now. You'll enjoy just making it move under electric power, doesn't matter how fast it goes right now.


Very true 

Any movement is progress and better than no movement


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Its been a long time with no updates. However, I did manage to take an uneventful 36V lead drive before the snow fell. Everything ran smooth, shifted smooth and was eerily quiet.

Since then I've been trying to get small odds and ends sorted out. I have all my gauge drivers tested and circuits developed....still have to build them though . I've been breaking in my motor by running on 12V. So far, so good. Originally it was pulling about 40-50 amps when the brushes were new and still had the serrated edges. They now seem to be smoothing out and its only drawing about 20-22 amps. I read somewhere that a 100hr break in was considered good....so I'll shoot for that.

I finally decided on a location for the controller - lower right wheel well (where the factory intercooler used to be). I was able to use some existing mount points and added a couple of my own to the transmission support. This location doesn't take away from any "precious" battery space. Its going to be a tight fit for 86 CALB CA100 cells!!!

I spent some time retro-fitting an Eclipse bumper/lights and installing a transmission radiator for the controller cooling loop. I found a billet grill from a '99 Ford Explorer for a good price. It fit the factory cutout nicely and resembles a large aftermarket front mounted intercooler. Not that its a turbo anymore, but I do like the look 

I also started my 12kW PFC water cooled EMW Charger. Nothing exciting to report yet, but I'll add some pics when I get them on my computer.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

Nice work! So do you think you'll have it rolling by June 7th? That's when this years Future of Transportation show is happening in Edmonton again. We decided to move it up to take advantage of some better weather. Sounds like RWAudio is coming up from Calgary again. Hopefully we'll get a few other new conversions as well.

I managed to snag one of the Better Place battery packs but I don't know that I'll have a conversion going by then with all the show organizing and such.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Jesse


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Jesse67 said:


> Nice work! So do you think you'll have it rolling by June 7th? That's when this years Future of Transportation show is happening in Edmonton again. We decided to move it up to take advantage of some better weather. Sounds like RWAudio is coming up from Calgary again. Hopefully we'll get a few other new conversions as well.
> 
> I managed to snag one of the Better Place battery packs but I don't know that I'll have a conversion going by then with all the show organizing and such.
> 
> ...


Hopefully I'm rolling by then as well, I'm having trouble getting the CAN controller that sends messages to the DMOC645. Even if my car isn't there I could probably convince John to bring up his Porsche 914 instead (I'd likely be borrowing his trailer, so even if mine is done we likely wouldn't bring 2 cars but who knows)


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## Morpheus (Feb 15, 2014)

Cool project. I've been running DSM's for about 16 years. Fun cars. Although, I like first gen which are easier to work on. 

BTW, who machined the flywheel to motor adapter you have?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Jesse67 said:


> Nice work! So do you think you'll have it rolling by June 7th? That's when this years Future of Transportation show is happening in Edmonton again. We decided to move it up to take advantage of some better weather. Sounds like RWAudio is coming up from Calgary again. Hopefully we'll get a few other new conversions as well.
> 
> I managed to snag one of the Better Place battery packs but I don't know that I'll have a conversion going by then with all the show organizing and such.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jesse. I'm hoping to have it on the road in May. So a June show could work out. I'll be there one way or another...with or without a completed build!

What is up your sleeve for your next build?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> Hopefully I'm rolling by then as well, I'm having trouble getting the CAN controller that sends messages to the DMOC645. Even if my car isn't there I could probably convince John to bring up his Porsche 914 instead (I'd likely be borrowing his trailer, so even if mine is done we likely wouldn't bring 2 cars but who knows)


It would be awesome if you guys could both bring up your cars. But with all those Porsches and Teslas....I guess my lowly DSM will park out back by the shed


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

oh, I thought DSM was http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Morpheus said:


> Cool project. I've been running DSM's for about 16 years. Fun cars. Although, I like first gen which are easier to work on.
> 
> BTW, who machined the flywheel to motor adapter you have?


Thanks Morpheus. Yes, the DSMs are definitely fun. Lots of 1gs constantly changing hands around here. Not many 2gs. And even fewer AWD.

I have a good friend that owns a machine shop. He also did the adaptor plates. Where would we be without influential friends?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> oh, I thought DSM was http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx


Holy crap that is hilarious 

I guess we all have a bit of a disorder. I prefer to think of it as a passion though!


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

I guess the AC swap going that route isn't quite as plug an play as most of the diy ev stuff. Good luck! It would be great to have you at the show again. if you could pass on John's info through my email that would be excellent, the more conversions the better. How about your friend with the Solectria? Any other local ev owners/converters who might be interested? 

Well the Teslas do attract a lot of attention but we all know how much work it is to build your own car and that makes them just as awesome. Your DSM will be right up there with all the cars. My lowly japanese mini truck with rust spots and cracked seats will be in the back if anybody! 

We're working on the website and should have something up in the next couple weeks with all the info. 

Still not sure on the next project. 24kwh in the better place pack is enough for two small cars. I definitely need something for my growing family though, maybe a Nissan X-trail? I've always liked those, not too heavy and you can get one with a stick. 

Cheers,

Jesse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Jesse67 said:


> My lowly japanese mini truck with rust spots and cracked seats will be in the back if anybody!


LOL....no way man, that truck is cool. How did it run this winter btw? It's AWD, right?



Jesse67 said:


> I definitely need something for my growing family though, maybe a Nissan X-trail? I've always liked those, not too heavy and you can get one with a stick.


Those are nice SUVs. Would make a great EV with that 24kWh pack. Probably ~80km range which would be awesome in and around the city. Also easier to find compared to the RAV4 or CRV.


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

It did pretty well, drove it just about every day, 9km commute each way. ~220 charge cycles (mostly 50% or less) and 4500km on it now. Monday morning drives were the worst for voltage sag as the truck is sitting in the cold garage all weekend and the cells are very cold. The start of the drive would be at 61V, (~2.55v/cell) and ~160A just to maintain 45km/hr. 61V is the low voltage cutoff I have set on the controller. But I could usually pull >200 plus amps by the end of the drive as they warmed up. Probably could have used the battery heater on those days but it always got me where I needed to go.

Driving and charging during the week keeps the pack pretty warm with all it's insulation. Even on the coldest Monday (high -25 C sitting outside all day and sitting in the garage all weekend before) the pack was up to 10 deg above zero after my days drive so I knew my commute was enough to warm the batteries sufficiently for a safe charge. The rest of the week always got better as the pack retains heat from successive charges and drives. One thing I noticed is the ceramic heater core puts out almost nothing when the voltage sags that low and the air blowing through it is that cold.

X-trail would be nice but something like a yaris hatchback would be a lot faster with an AC51 and about 12kwhs worth.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Jesse, that is good news on the winter driving. The cold temps have had me worried. Were you using your heated-air system also? Or just relying on retained heat?

I just bought some self-regulating heat cable which I'm going to use in each of the battery boxes. I think Yabert was using something similar, except his had thermostats? I like the self-regulating concept. One less thing to go wrong.

The Yaris would be a good candidate for the AC51 and 12kWh. Are you retiring the truck and moving the drive system? Or building another EV?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Battery boxes*

My original "rough" measurements suggested I had alot of room to work with battery placement and weight distribution. Um. Not so. As a result, I'm stuck with 43 front and 43 rear. There is room to potentially add 10 more under the rear seat where the factory fuel tank was. Not sure I'll need them though. I also want to maintain as much of the factory look and functionality as possible. So I'm keeping the rear pack below the hatch space - where the spare tire well used to be.

Regardless, adding the controller, motor, adapter plate, and batteries in this configuration is almost a 50/50 addition (the new CG is the green dot in the below pic). I don't know the factory chassis distribution so my final weight will be what it will be.

I have alot of work to do before the local EV show on June 7. Progress is pain-staking slow. My fabrication experience with aluminum is minimal, but I do like how clean and light it is compared to steel. TIG welding is quite slow - especially with my lack of experience. But I'm getting there....boxes are tacked up waiting for final welding.

I need to figure out bracing to the frame for box support. Oh, and I'm working on my EMW charger in my "spare" time


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Battery boxes*

Looks like it's coming along! Those battery boxes will be nice. I think I'm going to go that route for the next conversion but I may see if I can employ one of the guys who does custom diamond plate truck tool boxes. It'll be great to have you at the show, things are coming along,

http://www.drivethefutureexpo.com/

I think I have my conversion candidate narrowed down to a 2008 or newer VW city golf which would happily swallow the whole better place pack, or as many of the cells as I can run with the new curtis controller and an AC51. Basically it's the MK4 golf that they kept selling in Canada as an economy car for a few years even though the MK5 was already out. Nice basic car, just had a not very exciting engine which won't be a problem for me. Same price used as a Yaris hatch back for a much nicer car with a lot more room for the growing family. Heated seats even.

Good luck getting those packs together!

Jesse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Thanks Jesse - I'm pulling late nights trying to be ready for the show. The family is already complaining about the late-night buzz from my AC TIG  Life is busy and its a packed month of May. And I don't want to cut any corners either! So for now I'll be "... a game time decision" 

I almost went with diamond plate - but believe it or not that extra .030" for the diamonds would hurt me for clearances. I've squeezed every single sliver of space out of this body to fit in those 86 cells. Well "hopefully" squeeze them in - I haven't installed them yet!

The MK4's are nice cars - a friend has one and its been rock solid. Should make a nice conversion! Looking forward to your progress on that.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Its been a long month of May - working garage midnight shifts pretty much every night to try be ready for the EV show June 9.

First task on the list was completing the support bars for the battery boxes - and then insulating and installing the self-regulating heat cable. I snaked the cable on the bottom of the box, embedding it in the insulation. Then covered it with 1/8" rubber and routed the input power wire through a junction box.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Once the boxes were done, I tackled the high voltage wiring. First was to run some orange (painted) PVC conduit where the old exhaust used to be. Then route all the wires. I also cut holes and used junction boxes to route the motor wires through the sheet metal down to the controller. Lastly was to rent a large crimper to secure all the cable ends. Crimped and sealed with dual-wall heat shrink tubing.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I then wired up the Blue Sea main disconnect switch. Mounted the EV Display driver board. And secured all the copper bus bars inside the junction boxes previously mounted on the rear battery box. The main disconnect is mounted to a 1/2" thick polycarbonate spacer which was drilled and tapped with the same hole pattern. Nothing can accidentally short against the battery box. I also added a junction box on the front battery box to secure the main fuse (Ferraz Shawmut A30QS500).

You can see the 8AWG TEW Black wire for the most negative connection of the EMW charger. And in the front box, a similar Red for the most positive.

I did a final bottom balance on each cell before connecting them all in series. The pack is starting with a maximum deviation of 1.5%. I'll continue to monitor it and keep an eye on the cell drift - just in case.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Before charging, I had to finish my EMW 12kW Water-Cooled Charger Kit. I started back in January and had the boards completed in late February. All that was left was to mount the components on some kind of frame, test it, and secure it inside the car. Sounds so simple....doesn't it.....

The wiring needs to be cleaned up a bit before the show - and the cooling fan (for the coils) will be mounted on the back of the lexan trim piece. I might leave this clear so the back of the charger can be seen. Or I might paint it grey to match the interior....not sure yet....


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I purchased the 50A J1772 inlet from TusconEV and made up my own charge cable using 8AWG TEW wire for the 2 hots and ground. And then 18AWG speaker wire for the proximity and pilot. The grey 1/2" flexible PVC worked great as a protective housing for routing the cables. It fit perfectly into the 3/4" strain relief on the back of the J1772. Like most others, I used the old gas tank inlet for the mounting location.

I only had 2 mounting bolts installed when I took the pictures, but all 4 are now in place to securely hold the inlet. I bought a Leviton charge cable from Amazon which was 14AWG and will be used for my 120V opportunity charging. I also purchased a Dostar handle from TucsonEV which I will wire for 240V charging at home. The Dostar fits much more tightly into the inlet than the Leviton. So I had to make sure it was securely fastened.

**** 2 JUNE 2014 : FIRST CHARGE ! ! ! ****
(Notice I removed the annoying fuel sticker )

All cells topped off nicely within 1.5% of each other taking on about 104Ah - which is exactly what I measured my lowest cell to be. The EMW charger did not go into CV stage, it simply cut off at 3.49V/cell. I need to review the software settings after the show.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

**** 3 JUNE 2014 : FIRST TEST DRIVE ****

Well I was able to take the car around the block in "Golf Cart Mode". I wouldn't say I had the EV Grin - at least not yet. It was more of a concerned look and a hopeful look that nothing blows up right before the Expo on June 7.

The remaining days I refinished the badly faded carbon fibre hood. It was a very yellow/green color and would just not be acceptable for the show. My family refused to let me take the car without fixing that hood 


**** 6 JUNE 2014 : FIRST MAJOR FAILURE ****

I hate Murphy. I really, really, do.
Things were going so well and then Murphy had to step in with his STUPID law. Argh. I was test driving the car again (after 2 days of heavy rain - where it sat in the garage waiting to go, I had no splash guards on the motor). Things were running smooth, but on very low power. No EV grin yet....more of a relieved smirk.

I dialed up the power and was delivering 400A at 220V to the Kostov with a 500A/sec slew rate. All was good but it seemed a little slow to react to throttle inputs. So I increased the slew rate to 700A/sec. And thats where things turned bad. Very bad. The car ran fine until I "punched" the throttle and upshifted to 3rd gear. I noticed the RPM's blip up to redline and then come back down. Something felt like it was slipping. After a bit more testing, the slipping was definitely a problem. My immediate thought was the clutch or the double-taper coupling.

I barely made it home (thankfully only a block away) and used my momentum to roll right up the driveway and straight back into the garage.

I can't express in words my frustration and sorrow to have this kind of failure THE NIGHT BEFORE the show. ARGH.... no time to pull the front pack/motor/tranny at the 11th hour. So sadly I had to tow it to the show 

Thankfully the weather was great and the show was a huge success. There was alot of interest in all the conversion vehicles and (of course) huge interest in all the Teslas that showed up. Great job and cudos to all the organizers including Jesse67  And it was very nice to see RWAudio and his group travel up from Calgary!!!


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

That is one nice conversion you've got there, nicest one at the show I would say. Thanks again for bringing it out! Too bad it had to tow in but I'm sure you'll get that sorted out shortly and be on the road again! 

Cheers!

Jesse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hey, thanks for the compliment Jesse! There were many nice conversions there and hopefully we'll see even more next year!!!


**** 8-9 JUNE 2014 : FAILURE ANALYSIS ****

I pulled the front pack to gain access to the drivetrain. This time I just pulled the motor and left the transmission installed. Its quite a process to remove the ICE from these vehicles - and the Kostov is not much easier. Mostly due to me retaining the AWD and making all the modifications to make it fit. If this was just FWD, it would have made things easier.

My clutch or flywheel problems were a pipe dream. THAT would have been easy to fix. The REAL problem was the double-taper coupling. I purchased a Tsubaki brand because it was locally available. And was "supposed" to be a direct replacement for the Fenner.

The inner sleeve did not seat properly on the shaft (or inside the taper). Or, it moved during assembly and did not get the correct torque applied. Either way, the inner sleeve was destroyed. It appears to have moved about 1/8" towards the flywheel - as can be seen in the picture from the back side.

Below are some comparison images of the Tsubaki coupling - which uses an outer sleeve, an inner sleeve, and 2 solid compression rings. The Fenner by contrast uses only a single outer sleeve, and two SPLIT compression rings. I believe the Tsubaki is very sensitive to overall tolerances and assembly sequence. While the Fenner is similar, I believe the split compression rings have a higher clamping load on the shaft (small surface area) and due to the split, will better compensate for overall tolerance. All components were measured before assembly and confirmed WITHIN tolerance, so I don't think that was the cause of the Tsubaki failure.

The motor shaft was damaged, but the inside of the coupling was perfect. Yan sent me some detailed Engineering information on the Fenner couplings - thanks again for that info! Fenner has a MUCH more detailed and explicit installation procedure than the Tsubaki. So I polished the shaft and prep'ed all the surfaces as per the Fenner spec. Their torque sequence is also different than Tsubaki, and during the installation, I believe the Fenner seated much better. There was absolutely no indication of binding and the Fenner seemed to grab the parts almost immediately. Conversely, the Tsubaki was tight to originally install and there did not seem to be a defined threshold of when it was fully seated.

Either way, I will now ONLY every use FENNER BLOC couplers in any application requiring this type of connection. Having now installed both, I believe the Fenner is a better product. That said, I have not yet taken the new assembly for a test drive, so I hope I don't have to eat my words!!!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

More info on the couplers.

Tsubaki AD series vs Fenner BLoc series -- I believe the split compression rings used in the Fenner design are better since they clamp the shaft with a higher contact pressure.

I installed the Fenner and re-assembled the motor this weekend. I still have some mounts, brackets, and the front pack to finish.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*BAD LUCK CONTINUES....*

So I go to plug in my EMW charger....BZZZIP...with a small spark.

WTF????

I pulled the charger and what do I find? A fried output resistor. So I changed it and re-tested. This time with no mains power - just the 12V control circuitry.

This time sizzle and smoke from the 15V output DC/DC converter.

Are you kidding me?

After some testing, it looks like the output IGBT is toast also. Just great...


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## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

I was just going to ask you in all seriousness what your experience was building your own EMW charger, if it was worth it for the cost savings over a pre assembled unit....

Too bad about the coupler, hopefully this new one holds up. I found it interesting that Randy at CanEV (25+ years converting EVs now ?) uses straight bore set screw couplers with keys, I guess he's had too much trouble with taperlocks. I wouldn't have thought they would handle the torque and I used a keyed taperlock before I found out what he's been doing for a while now. No issues with slipping obviously but it certainly doesn't spin true if you don't tighten it properly with a dial gauge on it and I've had to replace the bearing on the AC50 already once. Not sure if it was the coupler or the adapter plate being off center but it's starting to make some noise again. Just about 6000km now. I'm sure I would have broken a lot more stuff by now if I had as much torque as that warp 11 and a clutch and gear changes to worry about!

Jesse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

In all seriousness, I needed to give your question alot of thought. I'd have to say the EMW Kit is not for everyone. If purchasing the kit components, I would suggest a builder have:

1. Decent electrical/electronics background.
2. Definitely be able to read an electrical schematic.
3. Experience with heavy (12Ga+) soldering.
4. Experience with precision (SMD) soldering.
5. Some level of programming in some language....usually good practices are not platform specific and will help when setting up the program.
6. Good computer knowledge to get all the hardware/software working.

I think it was the right choice for me...however...this recent "glitch" has me puzzled and a little worried. I definitely don't feel confident leaving my charger unattended until I figure out *why* it did what it did. I hope I can actually get it working again - currently waiting on IGBTs.

At the end of the day, it is claimed there are numerous (tens,twenties,hundreds???) EMW PFC chargers running right now. Some kits, some pre-assembled. If I was to do it again, I'd strongly consider the pre-assembled boards. Mounting, connecting, and testing is pretty straight forward. At least you'd know your starting with "working" hardware AND software.

Overall, the EMW line of chargers is easily the best value for the dollar - IF you're just looking at raw power. For other features such as isolation and chademo....I can't comment. They weren't high on my list of value.


I chose the double taper lock based on information I found in various forums. One CRITICAL feature was self-centering. Due to my coupler design with the long overhand and steady bearing, I wanted something that would run true. In addition, they offer magnitudes of torque capacity above keys and set screws. No question Randy has been through it all. I hope my experience with the "authentic" Fenner coupler is as good as all the advertising hype. In all honesty, I'm surprised Kostov doesn't build these with splined shafts. Cost savings, I guess. But I would have easily spent an extra $500 to get a hardened spline with a matching "blank" coupler.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I'd have to agree with Darryl's comments on the EMW it's not for everyone. I built my first one and the instructions were copied/pasted incorrectly (from the non PFC) and it clearly told me to assemble it backwards, turns out installing the driver board backwards is BAD. After some rework and better instructions it is working very well. I bought another kit about 6 months later to assemble for Wade, so much had changed in 6 months next to nothing I had learned from the first one still applied. Physical dimensions were also very different on the heatsink making the previous enclosure design impossible. So the 2nd one is becoming a water cooled charger and Wades solectria is sporting my original air cooled one.

While I finish my water cooled version (v9 or 10) I'll be working on another one (v13 or 14 or 63?) for someone else.

I think the basic design is solid but primitive. Some would consider that a good thing, but it lacks isolation, redundancy and some safety features, my first version was buggy and the BMS "loop" wasn't reliable due to a lack of hardware and/or software filtering on the signal line.

The charger is by far the best watt/$ device available. For my car there is simply no other choice, if I was building a car for my mom, it would use a Brusa.

Long term reliability might be questionable on the EMW, but parts are cheap and you can talk to the designer so almost anything's fixable.

As for the keyed shaft on EV motors, I'm willing to bet it's a carryover from the "new guys" copying the shaft/face of the Advanced DC motors or whoever was the first on the scene. I have to say I love the splined shaft on the Siemens motor, it allowed me to make a 40mm diameter steel coupler for less than $150 mating the Siemens spline to the Porsche spline. Netgain motors are available with splined shafts if you pay a little extra, not sure if Kostov would do the same, but lead time would likely be up there.

I can't wait for a ride in the Talon once you get the bugs worked out Darryl!!


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> *BAD LUCK CONTINUES....*
> 
> So I go to plug in my EMW charger....BZZZIP...with a small spark.
> 
> ...


Just a question, what kind of cooling do you have on the inductors? Also what's the proximity of the inrush current limiter to other wiring and the inductors when the charger is "assembled"? 

Also if possible you might want to try and separate the inductors as far as is practical even if just for a test. In audio it's common practice to try and mount inductors (passive speaker crossovers) perpendicular to each other to minimize their interaction.

Have a look at section 4.3 as well as 8.0
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm

Perhaps the noise you described when the charger was working was related to the PFC/Buck inductors interacting in some negative way. In short, you might have built a cool transformer that Valery didn't call for in the Schematic.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hi Robin, hope my IGBTs show up today and I can get the charger running again this weekend. Just the front pack left to re-install and I should be able to test drive (hopefully this weekend also). Always welcome anytime you're in Edmonton 

I have 1 12V fan beside the coils - partially blowing axially through and also across the control board/driver board. The inrush current limiters are mounted to the aluminum base plate for heat dissipation - the wires are about 6-8" long connected to the bridge. On 120V, one line is actually the neutral. And on 240V they are both hot. Would having an inrush limiter on the neutral result in this problem? It WAS on 120V when I plugged it in and blew something - previously all charging was done on 240V? Hhhmmmm....

The inductors are about 5/8" apart and all retaining hardware is PVC. Except the bolts. Toroids are very good at containment and I'm not sure how much (if any) crosstalk there would be at such low power levels. However, it might be a frequency thing. Thanks for the link, I'll read up on it further. I'll also post that video in the charger thread and see if anyone has some suggestions.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

The current limiter should be just fine on either leg, but hot is better. For the toroids I was referring to the high power clicking or spark that you described before. It may have been related to the root cause of the failure, stressing a component too far and it simply failed on that power up. Curious to hear how things go, I have Yan's charger on order so I'll be assembling as soon as it arrives.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

rwaudio said:


> The current limiter should be just fine on either leg, but hot is better. For the toroids I was referring to the high power clicking or spark that you described before. It may have been related to the root cause of the failure, stressing a component too far and it simply failed on that power up. Curious to hear how things go, I have Yan's charger on order so I'll be assembling as soon as it arrives.


Yeah, that snapping sound disappeared if I ran under 12A @ 240V, so about 3.4kW - less than 30% rated output. If the components were stressed at that low of power then I must have screwed something up in my build or my software. Hope to find out more this weekend.

Also, I remember you did use an output diode in your first build. I did the same. Naturally, the charger does not recognize a battery attached.

So when charging did you always just bypass that prompt on the screen?

During calibration, I set my cut off at 3.49v (which is the average of all cells after the lowest capacity cell reached 3.54v). In the code, it's programmed for CV stage at 350. Since I never actually reach that, I was planning on changing that to 349. Did you have to do that with yours? I recall you saying your voltages were very similar to what I was running? Right now, I have no CV stage.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> Yeah, that snapping sound disappeared if I ran under 12A @ 240V, so about 3.4kW - less than 30% rated output. If the components were stressed at that low of power then I must have screwed something up in my build or my software. Hope to find out more this weekend.
> 
> Also, I remember you did use an output diode in your first build. I did the same. Naturally, the charger does not recognize a battery attached.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point about the snapping, perhaps your inductors were interacting and not letting either stage perform properly.

You may have a problem with the wiring of your diode then, your voltage sense should be on the output of the diode so that the charger can still measure battery voltage, that's important! And it will just factor in the diode drop as part of the calibration.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I wired my Vout connection directly to the board. Duh....obviously I have to move it PAST the diode to actually sense the batter voltage. Funny how such obvious things often get overlooked  Thanks for the tip!

I did some research on toroid transformers. Previously, my understanding was that the magnetic field is fully contained within the core. It makes them lighter and more efficient than E-core or H-core styles. 










Solenoids can be created with axial current exciting the B-Field and inducing current flow in the toroid windings. Which is why its recommended to NOT use conductive hardware through the center of a toroid. This fact, I was familiar with.

However, there is also the (weaker) A-Field running through the axis of the toroid. This I was NOT familiar with. I believe you are correct that the two transformers ARE interacting on some level. I'm going to dis-assembly and reposition them for testing. This is a bad cell phone video which captured that snapping sound (almost resembles a geiger counter):

Axial toroid transformer snapping.

My transformer mounting WAS axial - but I'm going to change it.









I don't need any weird Tesla effects, so I would like to avoid this as much as possible.  It would make one helluva car alarm though!!!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I fixed my charger issue thanks to Valery's help -- he somehow picked out of a picture that 2 caps were missing from my driver board current sensing circuit. Turned out the snapping sounds were the current limiting of the PFC chip activating prematurely.

I logged some performance data which is compared back to the original ICE in this thread. Close to 250 EV miles so far and things seem to be running good --- knock on wood because I don't want to jinx it !!!

Major things left to do:
1. Heater, for the upcoming winter
2. A/C compressor mount
3. Power steering
4. Finish factory gauge driver circuits

I also want to get some temperature monitoring set up for the motor so I can increase the amperage above 550. I'd like to go up around 680 or so -- which should easily exceed OEM performance specs. Not because I "need" it. But because I'm addicted to the constant electric power delivery and "WANT" more  Daily drivability is perfect right now and I don't have any issues in traffic or on the freeway.

Its pretty early to tell, but my average power consumption is around 350 wh/mi....closely matching the rule of 1 wh/mi for every 10 lb (car weighs 3518...actually 3681 with me). I've been as low as 300 - cruising on the freeway about 65-70. And as high as 400 in stop/go traffic. These numbers are from Soliton logs - I do not yet have my EV Display Ah counter wired up.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Disappointing Update*

**** 19 SEPTEMBER 2014 : SECOND MAJOR FAILURE ****

My Kostov K11-250 motor failed after 1500 km. Thankfully I was 2 blocks from home and not on the freeway or major city road.

Executive summary : Internal motor short caused terminal and bus bar vaporization. And an IGBT Desat error on the Soliton-1. Motor is currently in pieces being refurb'ed at the motor shop -- working through repairs and some painful-to-absorb costs.


*Operating Details*
Max Motor Voltage : 250V
Max Motor Amps : 550A
Max Motor RPM : 5000
Freeway cruising power : 15-22 kW steady-state for approx 20 minutes
Freeway average amps : 90-140A
Freeway average voltage : 100-150V
Power changes due to traffic/hills/etc...but these are 'typical' numbers
Maximum logged motor power : 124 kW (during acceleration in traffic)

Motor housing temperatures are usually 40-50 deg C after a trip like this in 24 deg ambient temperature (read with an infra-red thermometer). I also have about 5-10 min of city driving on each end of the freeway trip. Maximum recorded housing temp was 67 deg on a 30 deg day. I know this doesn't mean much because the brushes and field coils can be very different. However, its some kind of reference to go by.

Motor break-in was approximately 40 hrs @ 12V, no load and another 30 hrs @ 24V, no load.

The motor shop is removing all interpole connections and wiring it permanently in series. I've been skeptical of the interpole connections outlined here. Others have had terminals come loose in the polymer holder. Mine were tight, and all (remaining) bolted connections were tight. The bus bars were tight and showed no signs of arcing. Only evidence is the melted portion of the top left wire inside the holder. Top middle terminal and half of the bus bar vaporized.

It was a very enjoyable 1500 km. I hope to get it back on the road after repairs are done. I'm also hoping for a much more reliable ride so it can become my daily driver. The repair time and monetary costs are deflating my EV enthusiasm.

RW Audio gave up on his Warp11HV/Soliton1 and is now onto a Siemens/DMOC hoping for more reliability. I have not seen many K11-250's running at full power. I would love to hear from anyone else running these power levels in a daily driver?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Disappointing Update*



Old.DSMer said:


> RW Audio gave up on his Warp11HV/Soliton1 and is now onto a Siemens/DMOC hoping for more reliability. I have not seen many K11-250's running at full power. I would love to hear from anyone else running these power levels in a daily driver?


Yep, I basically have a Porsche E-Transit Volt Connect... Almost everything in my car (or about to go in my car) came from the Transit Connect or Chevy Volt.

Good luck with your rebuild, hopefully you have better luck than I, and I still want a ride!!


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

*Re: Disappointing Update*




Old.DSMer said:


> **** 19 SEPTEMBER 2014 : SECOND MAJOR FAILURE ****
> 
> My Kostov K11-250 motor failed after 1500 km…


 
Sorry to hear of your loss. Looks like another classic case of Kostov poor workmanship issues…

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93478





Old.DSMer said:


> …I've been skeptical of the interpole connections…


 
Yes those interpole field connections were an issue in my motor as well. 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34775


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Disappointing Update*



rwaudio said:


> Yep, I basically have a Porsche E-Transit Volt Connect... Almost everything in my car (or about to go in my car) came from the Transit Connect or Chevy Volt.
> 
> Good luck with your rebuild, hopefully you have better luck than I, and I still want a ride!!


Ah, yes... I think I read about that Porsche model E-TVC on a forum somewhere 

Better yet, when its back on the road you'll have to drive it and provide a MotorTrend "2-minute Test Drive" review


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Disappointing Update*



azdeltawye said:


> Sorry to hear of your loss. Looks like another classic case of Kostov poor workmanship issues…http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93478
> 
> Yes those interpole field connections were an issue in my motor as well.http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34775


azdeltawye, I previously read all your motor posts with great interest and I'm disappointed to see the final fate of your Kostov. I'm not convinced your motor mounts caused the failure, especially if they were correctly torqued. Either way, mechanical contact is never good 

I can't say my overall motor quality is poor. The armature and field windings were solid. Brushes and holders looked good. Housing and bearings were good. Still not sure on the armature balance - but hopefully the motor shop can tweak that if necessary.

My interpoles will be permanently wired and I'll only have 2 external connections. That should address any potential terminal issues. Hopefully the rebuild goes smoothly...

I reset my Soliton-1 and it powers up normally on low voltage. My data logs show only a 650A surge before it shut down. Now my log interval is only 250ms (custom logging app), so there is a chance that surge was much higher. But prior to the failure, everything was within normal parameters.

Once I get the motor back and everything running again - I'll see how the Soliton runs. Tesseract has recommended I send it in for an inspection. Due to high shipping costs, I might test it out first and make my decision later.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm sorry for your loss.
It's really sad to see that the Kostov motors don't do the job...
Do you have any way of finding the cause of the failure? Bad motor from kostov shop? Welding on motor cause something? The modification of the aluminum DE of the motor? Vibration?

I wish you best luck for your Soliton and your rebuild motor.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yabert said:


> I'm sorry for your loss.
> It's really sad to see that the Kostov motors don't do the job...
> Do you have any way of finding the cause of the failure? Bad motor from kostov shop? Welding on motor cause something? The modification of the aluminum DE of the motor? Vibration?
> 
> I wish you best luck for your Soliton and your rebuild motor.


Thanks Yabert...prior to the failure, the Kostov was working great. Plamenator suggested a bus bar short. However, we could not find evidence of arcing on the remaining bus bar. Everything was tight and my sketch in the image above (in green) shows the bus bars did not move and touch one another. The only other evidence of anything happening was the melted wire inside the terminal block. The motor shop is inspecting and testing the fields. The armature needs a cleanup due to contamination under the first row of brushes. No other evidence of damage or cause of the failure. No water damage. No foreign material damage. What would cause an internal short of the wiring?

Other than that, I still have hopes that the upgraded Kostov will work as well as the others I've read about. I have not seen/heard of any K11-250 motors running at their max voltage ratings. Permanently connecting the fields inside will eliminate a possible short at the terminals in the future.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Old.DSMer said:


> I have not seen/heard of any K11-250 motors running at their max voltage ratings. Permanently connecting the fields inside will eliminate a possible short at the terminals in the future.


I run mine at 250V and so far made some test trips with the Soliton at 700A. But i have only driven around 200 km with it.

Please do post pictures of your permanent internal connections, i may do something like it now when i have my motor out of the car to be mated with another gearbox. I think the wires going to the connection terminals have very little insulation and there are not room for any more since there are six of them crammed in a very tight space. It would be much better if it only was two cables going to the connection terminal.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Steelneck

_I run mine at 250V_

Have you actually checked the motor operating voltage?

250v would imply a combination of very high current AND very high rpm


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Duncan said:


> Have you actually checked the motor operating voltage?
> 
> 250v would imply a combination of very high current AND very high rpm


No i have not checked, 250V is what the Soliton was set to. I know, that is not the same as true motor voltage.

EDIT (mixed my numbers)
I have logged a short full throttle run. At 3300 RPM, 100% duty cycle and 700A my batteries sagged to 202V, as far as i know 100% duty also means the same voltage to the motor. (at 4100 RPM, 100% duty i had 212V but only 450A)


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

steelneck said:


> I run mine at 250V and so far made some test trips with the Soliton at 700A. But i have only driven around 200 km with it.
> 
> Please do post pictures of your permanent internal connections, i may do something like it now when i have my motor out of the car to be mated with another gearbox. I think the wires going to the connection terminals have very little insulation and there are not room for any more since there are six of them crammed in a very tight space. It would be much better if it only was two cables going to the connection terminal.


Similar settings to mine. The motor shop is copper welding the field coils. I do not have the ability to do it. I will try get pics when its done.

I also feel there is an insulation issue with all those wires so close in an automotive environment. Any gap or pinhole can result in a short.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

steelneck said:


> No i have not checked, 250V is what the Soliton was set to. I know, that is not the same as true motor voltage.
> 
> EDIT (mixed my numbers)
> I have logged a short full throttle run. At 3300 RPM, 100% duty cycle and 700A my batteries sagged to 202V, as far as i know 100% duty also means the same voltage to the motor. (at 4100 RPM, 100% duty i had 212V but only 450A)


Sounds as if your pack is limiting you below the 250v limit in the controller


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Duncan said:


> Sounds as if your pack is limiting you below the 250v limit in the controller


Yes. Somewhere around 140 kW is what i get from my 100 Ah pack of 78 Winston LYP cells, maybe a bit more fresh from the charger. I chose these cells because they are supposed to work well in the cold and can even be charged in winter temperatures. I also bottom balanced them so they can take a lot of sag at low SoC in the cold.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

steelneck said:


> Yes. Somewhere around 140 kW is what i get from my 100 Ah pack of 78 Winston LYP cells, maybe a bit more fresh from the charger. I chose these cells because they are supposed to work well in the cold and can even be charged in winter temperatures. I also bottom balanced them so they can take a lot of sag at low SoC in the cold.


Highest I've logged is just under 140 kW. Thats hitting 550A and 250V at the motor (based on Soliton data) @ just under 5000 RPM. These are the current limits set in the Soliton. I have not noticed the pack sag much under 250V, which is good since I was hoping to get the current limit up to 600-650A, but I guess I'll wait and see how the rebuild looks when I get it back.


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## Overlander23 (Jun 15, 2009)

I had a shorted main cable in my 192v 11" Kostov shortly after installing the motor. Turns out the cable was rubbing on the commutator, shorted through the insulation, arced, and melted. 

They sent me a new cable with zip tie to keep it from coming into contact with the comm. It all works fine now.

Your problem doesn't quite seem like this... or could it?


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Overlander23 said:


> I had a shorted main cable in my 192v 11" Kostov shortly after installing the motor. Turns out the cable was rubbing on the commutator, shorted through the insulation, arced, and melted.
> 
> They sent me a new cable with zip tie to keep it from coming into contact with the comm. It all works fine now.
> 
> Your problem doesn't quite seem like this... or could it?


The internal cables are all in good condition. Wiring damage was isolated to the terminals and leads. I'm surprised with the large number of problematic Kostov motors. Brush issues, balance issues, field coil issues, and terminal/wiring issues.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

steelneck said:


> I run mine at 250V and so far made some test trips with the Soliton at 700A. But i have only driven around 200 km with it.
> 
> Please do post pictures of your permanent internal connections, i may do something like it now when i have my motor out of the car to be mated with another gearbox. I think the wires going to the connection terminals have very little insulation and there are not room for any more since there are six of them crammed in a very tight space. It would be much better if it only was two cables going to the connection terminal.


I have been waiting a long time for the motor shop to finish my repairs. Their primary business is oilfield and heavy industrial components (and have been recently swamped with work). They cleaned the Comm and tested all the field/interpole windings. All turned out to be good.

So the interpole connections were internally spliced with a crimp ferrule, then soldered with high-temp electrical solder. And finally wrapped with 500-DegC silicone tape. This means I'm permanently connected in Series and will be rotating CCW viewed from the drive end. As stated earlier, I believe having only 2 wires going to the terminals is a much better layout. I then added a K-Type thermocouple to the field windings and another on the brush holder once I got the motor home. They are held in place with Permatex Ultra-Black compound - good for 220-DegC.

I don't have the motor installed yet because I am building a new aluminum motor mount that will also incorporate a bracket for my factory A/C compressor. However I have been running it on low voltage to ensure everything works as expected. It will also help re-establish a nice patina before I run at full power again.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I remember following this thread, and it was triggered recently after viewing this video.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> I remember following this thread, and it was triggered recently after viewing this video.


Nice one LOL! Thanks for the link.


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