# [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery technology besides me?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I almost feel badly asking the question - I in NO WAY want to discourage an=
yone from starting a conversion.
And as a quiet lurkerI am so thankful for this group and those that have=
done conversions in the past. I've learned a lot.

In the last year, I've come close to selecting and buying a glider to conve=
rt. Then, I decided to work on
an electric drive hitch for my existing ICE - but got sidetracked first by =
a mating problem between the motor I bought
and the final drive I obtained and then second by a child who has been in t=
he hospital most of the last 4 months.
I even have the No. 2 welding wire, tabs, and hammer crimper - not to menti=
on a Curtis controller - all waiting on me.

Now that much time has passed, I'm currently thinking of holding out for a =
manufactured electric (highway capable) car that
should come out next year or in 2010. Second to that, I'd still love =
to do my own conversion, but just can't see
how a 50mile range lead-sled (I couldn't afford anything more right now) wi=
ll let me replace one of my two family vehicles
(and I don't want a third taking up space and costing addl insurance, etc.)=
.

So, I'm waiting and watching (as so many other EVers are) for the soon-to-b=
e-out power sources that could change things
dramatically.

In particular, the Firefly Oasis (especially their 2nd version that should =
be all foam on both plates) and the EEStor ultracap.
The EEStor is of greater interest, but I have no idea what the price will b=
e. And if I knew what the footprint will be, I could do a conversion and=
plan space accordingly. But what will be available and when? Will it=
come with a power conversion capability to bring the high voltage potentia=
l down to, say, 120VDC, probably the most common pack voltage among EVers?
Will they be available as a separate purchasable part when they come out in=
Zenn highway-capable cars?

These are the things I am weighing... in the meanwhile, I use my Scan=
Gauge II to get 20-30%+ better gas mileage (and now gas prices are down)...=
but my heart still waits for an affordable/buildable, long-range, electric=
car.

So, just curious if I'm the only wait-watcher (get it? ...

Keep on!

Scott
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm holding onto a car right now that I'd love to convert, but the cost of
batteries alone kills the idea, ergo, I have no choice but to wait a while.
You're not alone.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Its ALWAYS a few years away... If you really think that the next generation
of cars will

a) actually be available AND

b) actually be affordable


I have some swampland for sale ;-)





> Dave Hymers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm holding onto a car right now that I'd love to convert, but the cost of
> > batteries alone kills the idea, ergo, I have no choice but to wait a while.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought about waiting after doing my initial research on advanced
batteries. I decided: the energy storage solution is only one part of the
equation, one that can be reasonably upgraded/swapped. So I'm taking the
plunge: lead-acid it is (albeit AGMs for the no-fuss, no-mess, no-corrosion
aspect).
I figure, when I blow through my second pack of AGMs, it will probably be
time to switch.

Someone mentioned EEStor for conversion purposes: don't bank on it too
quickly: Ian Clifford, Zenn: "We have worldwide exclusive rights to EEStor
technology for the conversion of any 4-wheel vehicle on the planet."

Honestly, I would expect the same from all the high-tech battery OEMs.
Don't think you'll be able to buy the Volt's battery pack at your local GM
parts dealer -- IMO it wont happen.

Maybe a few years after the technology is released you might get your hands
on it.

Until then, you'll have two choices:
- Sit on the sidelines
- Do something today

Carpe Diem

-Nick
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had been thinking about waiting too. That would give me time to save
some money and plan it out well. Then circumstances landed a
non-working EV in my garage. I still didnt have any money to put into
it, but I wanted my garage space for vehicles and tools, not
dust-collectors. A year later I finally got it working.
I'm glad I DID something more than think about it. I could think about
it and say it will be better later until I die. "Besides" I thought to
myself, "if I can't afford $8k for a conversion now, how will I afford
a $30k factory car later?" Sure it ONLY gets me to work and back every
day, but that's something. It fit my situation well.


-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I bought lead.
IF and when the next generation of affordable batteries arrive (I'm 
guessing about 2 or 3 years) my lead pack will be near the end of its 2 
- 3 year life expectancy.
In the meantime, I have slowed down my support of mid-eastern oil-shieks 
who like only our money, and I will have ironed out the kinks in my 
home-brew system.
Bob





> Dave Hymers wrote:
> > I'm holding onto a car right now that I'd love to convert, but the cost of
> > batteries alone kills the idea, ergo, I have no choice but to wait a while.
> > You're not alone.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicolas drouin <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I thought about waiting after doing my initial research on advanced
> > batteries. I decided: the energy storage solution is only one part of the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Again, what makes you think that there will be factory electrics?

Just because they say there will be? Cmon, these are the same folks that
are saying that they
can't come up with 40 miles per charge out of Lithium?!?!

Have you forgotten, GM is the SAME company that SOLD OUT the electric car by
selling the
NiMH battery tech to big oil!!

Wouldn't surprise me if they are planning on take 2 with Lithium.





> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, nicolas drouin <[email protected]
> > >wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Surest way to improve the signal/noise ratio of the EV list: add some 
foaming-at-the-mouth anti-General-Motors FUD. :-b

Robert


Mike wrote:
> Again, what makes you think that there will be factory electrics?
> 
> Just because they say there will be? Cmon, these are the same folks that
> are saying that they
> can't come up with 40 miles per charge out of Lithium?!?!
> 
> Have you forgotten, GM is the SAME company that SOLD OUT the electric car by
> selling the
> NiMH battery tech to big oil!!
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if they are planning on take 2 with Lithium.
> 
> 
> 
>


> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, nicolas drouin <[email protected]
> >>> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> S Collins wrote:
> > I almost feel badly asking the question - I in NO WAY want to
> > discourage anyone from starting a conversion. And as a quiet lurker I
> > am so thankful for this group and those that have done conversions in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My mother used to say, "The poor workman blames his tools."


> My problem is simply that I don't have the garage space for the shop
> tools I'd need to do the job.
>
> Robert
>

>



-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why wait. Use what you have now and learn what you need to know and enjoy
your new transformed transportation. I got lead and it is fine for what I
need and for loads of others as well. Waiting is fine but that will make
EV's slower to catch on. They work, lead is proven for decades to work for
EV's. and there are other forms of batteries besides lead. Lithium is at the
top of the list but it is still available to those who with to venture
there. For others lead is just fine. Like mine. 


Pete : )

64 Ghia Static Charge. 
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p19986071.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Again, what makes you think that there will be factory electrics?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

IF you don't have the space, buy one that is complete. Solectria's can be
had complete in working order for anywhere from $8k up.

Got a bit more cash? 3 Rav4 EV's have graced eBay in the past couple of
weeks.

If you really want to drive EV, its possible today. With 100 year old
tech. (There have been a few of those old timers for sale too!)

What you need to do, is decide if its a hobby, or a goal.

If its a hobby, take 20 years to build it. The fun is making it work, not
so much when its already working.

Have a goal of driving EV? Find one of the factory conversions that folks
are selling. OR find a complete one on eBay.





> Robert MacDowell <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > S Collins wrote:
> > > I almost feel badly asking the question - I in NO WAY want to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would like to see an affordable new technology battery be put on the
market, but in the meantime I am going ahead and converting to what is
available today. My conversion is a hobby thing and your situation is quite
different. with cost and transportation being a prime factor in your
decision.
Should I be in your shoes, the conversion would be considered a hobby and
not a neccessity and budget accordingly. We can't rush the future, but it
will arrive as certainly as it is now.
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p19993456.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Scott Collins wrote:
> >
> >
> > So, I'm waiting and watching (as so many other EVers are) for the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah! or get a BugE if it's both hobby and goal.
I just wish the dang thing had seats for two... Where is my dog gonna sit?!lol
T

-----<<>>-----
> From: Mike <[email protected]>

> What you need to do, is decide if its a hobby, or a goal.
> 
> If its a hobby, take 20 years to build it. The fun is
> making it work, not
> so much when its already working.
> 
> Have a goal of driving EV? Find one of the factory
> conversions that folks
> are selling. OR find a complete one on eBay.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Robert MacDowell


> > <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

why wait ? lifepo4 is a good technology for EVs, at least much superior than
LA. now you can bought these cells directly from the factory in China, that
will save lots of cost. Why not start the EV fun now?
:clap:

-----
China Hipower, best lifepo4 producer in China.
www.chinabatteries.net
[email protected]
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p20030423.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Spiral Wound Lead Acid Sealed Batteries like those made in Spain for Electric Traction Purpose are very prooven and reliable we use them in OKA NEV ZEV, they have been around since the first hope for electric cars (1990) and developed by FIAT for that purpose!

We have cars with 19,000 miles and running since 2003 on the same battery pack with absolutely no range deterioration, so I highly recomment them, but they are relatively unknown in USA after all FIAT never sold the FIAT seicento electra here and GM only got two of their cars in California and to their horror the performance of the little $16,000 to $18,000 car was equaled to the EV1, but no A/C and 5 speed manual shift.

Miro Kefurt
OKA AUTO USA
www.okaauto.com

The current cost in USA is just under $200 per 12V battery (six cell) and you need at least 8 batteries for NEV application with 48V and 4 Kwh of energy storage. So just about $1,600 - they can last up to 10 years or more if you typically use only 60% of the capacity before re-charge.

We have tried the magic Chinese batteries some costing as much as $4,200 for the same energy capacity - only to find out that in real life NEV application they only lasted 6 weeks - and the manufacturers attitude was, you bought them, you paid for them so they are yours, do you want more ? That's China for you !!!? By contrast we only "thought" we had a problem with two of the batteries made in Spain, and they had use fly them bact to them to see what is wrong, and it turned to be OUR FAULT, bad connection when "testing them", yet we got NEW batteries with no hasle - a big difference in service and customer care, totally unknow in China and simply not even part of their culture, once money changes hads you have no friend any more!


-----Original Message-----
From: milo0105 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 3:05 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery technology besides me?




why wait ? lifepo4 is a good technology for EVs, at least much superior than
LA. now you can bought these cells directly from the factory in China, that
will save lots of cost. Why not start the EV fun now?
:clap:

-----
China Hipower, best lifepo4 producer in China.
www.chinabatteries.net
[email protected]
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p20030423.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is there a web page and spec sheet for these batteries?

Thanks,
Brian





> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Spiral Wound Lead Acid Sealed Batteries like those made in Spain for Electric Traction Purpose are very prooven and reliable we use them in OKA NEV ZEV, they have been around since the first hope for electric cars (1990) and developed by FIAT for that purpose!
> >
> > We have cars with 19,000 miles and running since 2003 on the same battery pack with absolutely no range deterioration, so I highly recomment them, but they are relatively unknown in USA after all FIAT never sold the FIAT seicento electra here and GM only got two of their cars in California and to their horror the performance of the little $16,000 to $18,000 car was equaled to the EV1, but no A/C and 5 speed manual shift.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Miro;

Thanks for the in-your-face testomonial as to batteries. Yes! Were 
interested here in the States!What GOOD batteries with a decent gaurantee? 
We just aren't used to that, here in China enchanted battery suppliers type 
guys. We just DON'T know about your stuff. I'd buy battery's from you in a 
heartbeat, IF I can get them in CT, East Coast, reasonable cost and time?

Please tell me the OKA ISN'T another NEV!Phooey! We DON'T need any more 
NEV's cluttering upo our roads with poky performance. Tell me, please that 
OKS's can scoot along at 60 or so MPH on the freeways?IF Tesla had bought 
the rights to OKA'a and bult them, for maybe 15 k bux, they would be 
swarming all over USA's roads! I mean, here's the simple answer to a cheap, 
light EV. Being Russian built they HAVE to be rugged? With Russia's lousy 
roads, temp. extreames, etc?

Miro, I like your approach to doing biz! Thanks for telling it like it 
is.Rather have proven Spanish batteries than being a Test Pirate, er PILOT 
for Chinese ones. We gotta talk!

Seeya

Bob in Connecticut (Corrupticut) USA Least Coast

"Electric Cars' issues aren't technical, but Political" But we 
know that!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery 
technology besides me?


> Spiral Wound Lead Acid Sealed Batteries like those made in Spain for 
> Electric Traction Purpose are very prooven and reliable we use them in OKA 
> NEV ZEV, they have been around since the first hope for electric cars 
> (1990) and developed by FIAT for that purpose!
>
> We have cars with 19,000 miles and running since 2003 on the same battery 
> pack with absolutely no range deterioration, so I highly recomment them, 
> but they are relatively unknown in USA after all FIAT never sold the FIAT 
> seicento electra here and GM only got two of their cars in California and 
> to their horror the performance of the little $16,000 to $18,000 car was 
> equaled to the EV1, but no A/C and 5 speed manual shift.
>
> Miro Kefurt
> OKA AUTO USA
> www.okaauto.com
>
> The current cost in USA is just under $200 per 12V battery (six cell) and 
> you need at least 8 batteries for NEV application with 48V and 4 Kwh of 
> energy storage. So just about $1,600 - they can last up to 10 years or 
> more if you typically use only 60% of the capacity before re-charge.
>
> We have tried the magic Chinese batteries some costing as much as $4,200 
> for the same energy capacity - only to find out that in real life NEV 
> application they only lasted 6 weeks - and the manufacturers attitude was, 
> you bought them, you paid for them so they are yours, do you want more ? 
> That's China for you !!!? By contrast we only "thought" we had a problem 
> with two of the batteries made in Spain, and they had use fly them bact to 
> them to see what is wrong, and it turned to be OUR FAULT, bad connection 
> when "testing them", yet we got NEW batteries with no hasle - a big 
> difference in service and customer care, totally unknow in China and 
> simply not even part of their culture, once money changes hads you have no 
> friend any more!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: milo0105 <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 3:05 am
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery 
> technology besides me?
>
>
>
>
> why wait ? lifepo4 is a good technology for EVs, at least much superior 
> than
> LA. now you can bought these cells directly from the factory in China, 
> that
> will save lots of cost. Why not start the EV fun now?
> :clap:
>
> -----
> China Hipower, best lifepo4 producer in China.
> www.chinabatteries.net
> [email protected]
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p20030423.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In USA other than OKA the only source for the ORBITAL batteries is EXIDE, so check their price it is the "blue top" that is for traction use, NOT the RED one.

Exide tends to price them about the same as OPTIMA since Johnson Controls ripped off the Italian design, but FIAT did not bother to sue them.

Our price is $175 and we pay for the shipping anywhere in USA by FedEx Ground.? 

www.okaauto.com

They are perhaps the ONLY batteries that are made from PURE VIRGIN LEAD from Ukraine (Other than flooded OKA batteries also made in Ukraine)

By contrast all batteries made in North America are from recycled Mexican souced Lead, they just melt the batteries, cases, plastic and all, and pourr off the lead to make new ones, that alone cuts down on the LEAD quality and service life of the battery??but the cost is fraction of what LEAD really costs today !

If you do not like NEV or the fact that you need $20,000 of safety equipment in USA to sell any 4 wheeled vehicle, do please make PUBLIC RESPONSE in support of MSV to NHTSA (Docket NHTSA-2008-0154) I have posted information about it few days ago.

Miro Kefurt
www.okaauto.com

PS: Remember you NEED 900 Lbs of LEAD to equate the energy storage in ONE GALLON of GASOLINE !!!

If you want the batteries to LAST for any reasonable time, cut that in 1/2 to 450 Lbs and now 10 to 15 year battery only lasts 18 to 24 months....

Somehow this knowledge that is almost 100 years old, got lost in the time warp, but the physics has not changed at all !

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rice <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 9:07 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery technology besides me?



Hi Miro;

Thanks for the in-your-face testomonial as to batteries. Yes! Were 
interested here in the States!What GOOD batteries with a decent gaurantee? 
We just aren't used to that, here in China enchanted battery suppliers type 
guys. We just DON'T know about your stuff. I'd buy battery's from you in a 
heartbeat, IF I can get them in CT, East Coast, reasonable cost and time?

Please tell me the OKA ISN'T another NEV!Phooey! We DON'T need any more 
NEV's cluttering upo our roads with poky performance. Tell me, please that 
OKS's can scoot along at 60 or so MPH on the freeways?IF Tesla had bought 
the rights to OKA'a and bult them, for maybe 15 k bux, they would be 
swarming all over USA's roads! I mean, here's the simple answer to a cheap, 
light EV. Being Russian built they HAVE to be rugged? With Russia's lousy 
roads, temp. extreames, etc?

Miro, I like your approach to doing biz! Thanks for telling it like it 
is.Rather have proven Spanish batteries than being a Test Pirate, er PILOT 
for Chinese ones. We gotta talk!

Seeya

Bob in Connecticut (Corrupticut) USA Least Coast

"Electric Cars' issues aren't technical, but Political" But we 
know that!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery 
technology besides me?


> Spiral Wound Lead Acid Sealed Batteries like those made in Spain for 
> Electric Traction Purpose are very prooven and reliable we use them in OKA 
> NEV ZEV, they have been around since the first hope for electric cars 
> (1990) and developed by FIAT for that purpose!
>
> We have cars with 19,000 miles and running since 2003 on the same battery 
> pack with absolutely no range deterioration, so I highly recomment them, 
> but they are relatively unknown in USA after all FIAT never sold the FIAT 
> seicento electra here and GM only got two of their cars in California and 
> to their horror the performance of the little $1
6,000 to $18,000 car was 
> equaled to the EV1, but no A/C and 5 speed manual shift.
>
> Miro Kefurt
> OKA AUTO USA
> www.okaauto.com
>
> The current cost in USA is just under $200 per 12V battery (six cell) and 
> you need at least 8 batteries for NEV application with 48V and 4 Kwh of 
> energy storage. So just about $1,600 - they can last up to 10 years or 
> more if you typically use only 60% of the capacity before re-charge.
>
> We have tried the magic Chinese batteries some costing as much as $4,200 
> for the same energy capacity - only to find out that in real life NEV 
> application they only lasted 6 weeks - and the manufacturers attitude was, 
> you bought them, you paid for them so they are yours, do you want more ? 
> That's China for you !!!? By contrast we only "thought" we had a problem 
> with two of the batteries made in Spain, and they had use fly them bact to 
> them to see what is wrong, and it turned to be OUR FAULT, bad connection 
> when "testing them", yet we got NEW batteries with no hasle - a big 
> difference in service and customer care, totally unknow in China and 
> simply not even part of their culture, once money changes hads you have no 
> friend any more!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: milo0105 <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 3:05 am
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery 
> technology besides me?
>
>
>
>
> why wait ? lifepo4 is a good technology for EVs, at least much superior 
> than
> LA. now you can bought these cells directly from the factory in China, 
> that
> will save lots of cost. Why not start the EV fun now?
> :clap:
>
> -----
> China Hipower, best lifepo4 producer in China.
> www.chinabatteries.net
> [email protected]
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Anybody-else-deciding-to-wait-a-bit-more-on-battery-technology-besides-me--tp19959474p20030423.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _________
______________________________________
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>
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_______________________________________________
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Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Check EXIDE web for the ORBITAL but really there is almost NO official specification, but I can tell you we use them for 4 Kwh for 5 years with no problems when charge at 6 to 18 A rate for recharge and not more than 14.4 V per battery voltage during charge, that is the ONLY secret.

Miro Kefurt
www.okaauto.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Pikkula <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 9:02 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery technology besides me?



Is there a web page and spec sheet for these batteries?

Thanks,
Brian





> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Spiral Wound Lead Acid Sealed Batteries like those made in Spain for Electric
> Traction Purpose are very prooven and reliable we use them in OKA NEV ZEV, they
> have been around since the first hope for electric cars (1990) and developed by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Oct 2008 at 3:05, milo0105 wrote:
> 
> > China Hipower, best lifepo4 producer in China
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Oct 2008 at 14:50, [email protected]x.xxx wrote:
> 
> > Exide tends to price them about the same as OPTIMA since Johnson Controls
> > ripped off the Italian design, but FIAT did not bother to sue them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That is a great way of looking at the situation. I decided to go the same
route almost two years ago. I built my DakotaEV and put lead acid batteries
in it with the hope that better batteries would be available in the near
future. So don't give up. If you build a good solid performing EV now, even
if it has lead acid batteries in it then image how well you're EV will
perform with better battery technology. 

Thanks, Freddie 

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899 

http://www.southernev.com 

-----Original Message----- 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of nicklogan 

Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:37 AM 

To: [email protected] 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery
technology besides me? 



> Scott Collins wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Re-cycled Lead has a lot of impurities, antimony, cobalt, etc. which are very expensive to totally remove, it is like using "reprocessed" Motor Oil versus fresh Motor Oil in gasoline engine, and then the next step is "synthetic" oil.

Not sure about where all the battereis are actually MADE or the Lead is sourced from, but of course majority of baateries are for STARTING purposes and then next is "Stand-By" power and then Industrial Uses, Traction Batteries are not eve a DROP in a BUCKET by volume, so there really is no need or business model that would make sense to have "automotive traction batteries" as there are NO electric cars in production.

Golf Cart battereis are OK, if you do not mind the perpetual maintenance issues and the fact that you almost never find a battery with EXACTLY BALLANCED CELLS - the big difference in batteries intended for TRACTION.

Have you noticed that ALWAYS at least one golf cart battery dies sooner than the rest ?

Variance, Balance and Quality are all ISSUES if Cost effective Electric trnsportation is teh issue, and it always is for them masses, since generally Electric vehicles if all is added up are NOT practical OR cost effective if your use is MORE than 20 to 30 miles per day.

NEV pays for itself in the useful lifetime

Full Function EV at best equals the cost of Gasline Car (pollution and social costs excluded)

Advanced EV like TESLA or all teh experimental EV from 10 years ago at best cost 3 to 5 times MORE to operate over the useful life, so that is why $7,000 to $30,000 subsidies of one kind or another are needed.

Strangely when you get to 30,000 lbs vehicle like city bus for example battery power with regen again becomes practical, you have the load capacity and space for lot of batteries even Lead Acid.

When it comes tosealed spiral wound batteries like ORBITAL or OPTIMA then you leave the maintenance and other issues behind.

VIBRATION from road is big issue that kills most golf cart batteries if used in automotive applications, the Vibration intensity and duration is 15 to 25 times greated per day than is experience in golf cart.

Use one of thiose "stand-by" power batteries that were designet to sit on the floor in 70 F envinronment and you are really asking for trouble if you put them into EV, and many people do that thinking they discovered a magic formula.

Miro Kefurt


-----Original Message-----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery technology besides me?





> On 17 Oct 2008 at 14:50, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Exide tends to price them about the same as OPTIMA since Johnson Controls
> > ripped off the Italian design, but FIAT did not bother to sue them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

...vibration...
One of the reasons that AGM batteries are robust,
the glass mat that separates the plates will also
allow a dense stacking and mechanical support.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Proxim and Winncom roadshow: Atlanta Oct 21, Florida Oct 23
http://www.proxim.com/promotions/winncom_roadshow/default.aspx 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery
technology besides me?

Re-cycled Lead has a lot of impurities, antimony, cobalt, etc. which are
very expensive to totally remove, it is like using "reprocessed" Motor
Oil versus fresh Motor Oil in gasoline engine, and then the next step is
"synthetic" oil.

Not sure about where all the battereis are actually MADE or the Lead is
sourced from, but of course majority of baateries are for STARTING
purposes and then next is "Stand-By" power and then Industrial Uses,
Traction Batteries are not eve a DROP in a BUCKET by volume, so there
really is no need or business model that would make sense to have
"automotive traction batteries" as there are NO electric cars in
production.

Golf Cart battereis are OK, if you do not mind the perpetual maintenance
issues and the fact that you almost never find a battery with EXACTLY
BALLANCED CELLS - the big difference in batteries intended for TRACTION.

Have you noticed that ALWAYS at least one golf cart battery dies sooner
than the rest ?

Variance, Balance and Quality are all ISSUES if Cost effective Electric
trnsportation is teh issue, and it always is for them masses, since
generally Electric vehicles if all is added up are NOT practical OR cost
effective if your use is MORE than 20 to 30 miles per day.

NEV pays for itself in the useful lifetime

Full Function EV at best equals the cost of Gasline Car (pollution and
social costs excluded)

Advanced EV like TESLA or all teh experimental EV from 10 years ago at
best cost 3 to 5 times MORE to operate over the useful life, so that is
why $7,000 to $30,000 subsidies of one kind or another are needed.

Strangely when you get to 30,000 lbs vehicle like city bus for example
battery power with regen again becomes practical, you have the load
capacity and space for lot of batteries even Lead Acid.

When it comes tosealed spiral wound batteries like ORBITAL or OPTIMA
then you leave the maintenance and other issues behind.

VIBRATION from road is big issue that kills most golf cart batteries if
used in automotive applications, the Vibration intensity and duration is
15 to 25 times greated per day than is experience in golf cart.

Use one of thiose "stand-by" power batteries that were designet to sit
on the floor in 70 F envinronment and you are really asking for trouble
if you put them into EV, and many people do that thinking they
discovered a magic formula.

Miro Kefurt


-----Original Message-----
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anybody else deciding to wait a bit more on battery
technology besides me?





> On 17 Oct 2008 at 14:50, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Exide tends to price them about the same as OPTIMA since Johnson
> > Controls ripped off the Italian design, but FIAT did not bother to sue
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Miro Kefurt [email protected] wrote:
> > Re-cycled Lead has a lot of impurities, antimony, cobalt, etc. which
> > are very expensive to totally remove, it is like using "reprocessed"
> > Motor Oil versus fresh Motor Oil in gasoline engine, and then the
> ...


----------

