# [EVDL] Zivan vs. others



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David-

It does an equalizing charge every time? If I understood rightly that eq
charging was purposefully overcharging the pack every so often to get
weak cells up to par, then wouldn't an eq charge every time be a bad
thing? Equivalent to just consistently overcharging your pack?

Just wondering, as I'm considering the Zivan for my replacement
charger...

Thanks

Hunter




> David Nelson wrote:
> > It seems that my Zivan charger does an equalize charge every time. I
> > seem to have heard someone else say this too. When I unplug my charger
> > after a charge and plug it in again it quickly goes down to drawing
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Bill, I'm glad you could sum it up so well for me. Seems weird
that it doesn't have some sort of current limiter; even my K&W has that.
I think if I get a Zivan I may leave the K&W in the vehicle, just for
"limp charge" opportunity situations. Plugging into 110 is handy.

Anybody have any thoughts on the Russco chargers?

Thanks again

Hunter

p.s. Sorry to all for igniting the Zivan charger holy wars.



> Bill Dube wrote:
> > You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> > of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> > However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just got my Brusa NLG5 from Metric Mind and even though it is 
expensive it sure is flexible- it has every connection you could ever 
want plus windows software to make multiple charge profiles for any 
chemistry not to mention it runs on variable input voltage. Anyone 
looking for a flexible charger should download the manual for a look 
see- the build quality is first rate.

M



> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> > of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hunter,

I believe it does. The finish charge on my 48V flooded pack routinely
hits 64+ V at the very end of the charge. This is high enough that my
controller won't turn on the contactor at this point. It does not just
run for a set amount of time, however. As Bill said it is specifically
programmed for "T-875 48V or equivalent."

I looked at TimK's 914 EV at http://www.914ev.blogspot.com/ and he had
Zivan install a toggle switch so he could reduce the current draw on
his charger to be more opportunity charging friendly. That is an
option you might consider.

David

On 10/1/07, Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
> David-
>
> It does an equalizing charge every time? If I understood rightly that eq
> charging was purposefully overcharging the pack every so often to get
> weak cells up to par, then wouldn't an eq charge every time be a bad
> thing? Equivalent to just consistently overcharging your pack?
>
> Just wondering, as I'm considering the Zivan for my replacement
> charger...
>
> Thanks
>
> Hunter
>
>
>


> David Nelson wrote:
> > > It seems that my Zivan charger does an equalize charge every time. I
> > > seem to have heard someone else say this too. When I unplug my charger
> > > after a charge and plug it in again it quickly goes down to drawing
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My understanding is, while Zivan chargers are very programmable,
they are just not *user* programmable, which makes them far less
versatile than they would've been if Zivan would changed this policy.

Sort of buying a radio fixed-tuned to one radio station you
specified at the time of purchase. To listen to something else,
you send radio back to manufacturer to turn the dial for you.
A bit silly.

BRUSA use to make such version for SAFT NiCd after SAFT
twisted BRUSA's arms forcing company to redesign that flavor
of chargers making them not user programmable - insuring that
no warranty claims will come to SAFT due to wrong charger setting.
SAFT specified exact profile and to make sure it will not be
"cracked" asked BRUSA also change the hardware so replacing
firmware chip on crippled charger would not restore functionality
of open version.
That was one time deal, BRUSA didn't like it and disagreed with
such policy but built chargers for SAFT not to loose large contract
with them. Well, at the end these chargers are of very little value
for anything other than those NiCd packs (which are no longer
produced by SAFT by the way). OTOH "normal" user programmable
BRUSA units sell like hot pancakes - thanks for being ready
for any battery that comes along in future.

I'm sure Zivan knows this but doesn't seem to want to learn
a lesson. Oh well, I'm sure they know better how to run
business...

Victor



> Bill Dube wrote:
> > You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> > of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> > However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the 
firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom 
program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have 
and is not an exact process.


> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > My understanding is, while Zivan chargers are very programmable,
> > they are just not *user* programmable, which makes them far less
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks to those who provided updates on Zivan. My comments were based on 
the experience of a friend a few years ago. He had an earlier model Zivan 
(K2, IIRC), so the current models may indeed be improved. 

Actually, I wonder about the reports that batteries charged by NG3 chargers 
need watering only a couple times a year. Flooded batteries need to gas to 
mix the electrolyte and equalization normally causes gassing. Might they 
have gone too far the other way?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: David Roden
> Thanks to those who provided updates on Zivan. My comments were based on 
> the experience of a friend a few years ago. He had an earlier model Zivan 
> (K2, IIRC), so the current models may indeed be improved. 

The Zivan chargers are microcomputer controlled, so their charging algorithm is defined by their software. They have lots of different software setups; some intended for floodeds, some for sealed, some with or without temperature probes, etc.

So, the results you get depend heavily on whether the sofware matches your actual batteries. The problems in the past have occurred when the wrong software version was being used. Unfortunately, Zivan does not give the user access to the programming algorith. If it's wrong, "contact your dealer".


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
(or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
(microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.

In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of, 
software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger 
executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".

It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?

Victor

Mark Dutko wrote:
> Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the 
> firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom 
> program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have 
> and is not an exact process.
>


> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Microcontrollers are quite reliable, far more so than a PC system, and 
"boot up" and start running the program in milliseconds.
There's no complicated issues on interfacing it with an operating system 
(Windows, Linux, etc) because there's no OS. Just code.
Microcontrollers manipute I/O at a very low level, there is a far lower 
potential for odd "gotchas" where the controller isn't reading inputs or 
assigning outputs the way it thought it was.

Danny

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

>To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
>(or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
>Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
>Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
>(microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
>Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
>
>In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of, 
>software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
>profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger 
>executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".
>
>It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
>any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?
>
>Victor
>
>Mark Dutko wrote:
> 
>
>>Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the 
>>firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom 
>>program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have 
>>and is not an exact process.
>>


> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Danny-

Yes, all your points about microcontrollers are accurate, due to their
much reduced complexity vs. PC architectures. But I think Victor's point
was that regardless of whether you program your Brusa, etc. with a PC,
it is still actually running the code from firmware via a
microcontroller, and thus should have microcontroller-style
reliability/performance.

Hunter.



> Danny Miller wrote:
> > Microcontrollers are quite reliable, far more so than a PC system, and
> > "boot up" and start running the program in milliseconds.
> > There's no complicated issues on interfacing it with an operating system
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I interpreted Mark's statement a little differently -- I think he was
stating that the Zivan sellers have claimed that the PC software used
to program the chargers wasn't as reliable -- In other words, wasn't
up to being placed in the hands of an end user.

Of course, that is just my interpretation, and not much more than an
empty justification ... Zivan doesn't let end users program the
chargers because they want to capitalize on the additional revenue
stream of servicing / reprogramming the chargers. I'm sure someone at
the company looked at resell values of chargers like Brusa's as well,
and decided (right or wrong) that the high level of programmability
might hurt future sales of new chargers, too.

I'm not sure that either argument is sound -- after all, if you
provide the better product from day one you'll attract more customers.
And just because I can go out and buy any used charger to reprogram
for my batteries doesn't mean I'll never buy a new one -- I'm more
likely to go back and buy a new product from a company if I've used an
old product in the past and been happy with it. Unfortunately, it's
near impossible to argue with a company who sees what they are doing
as being in their best financial interest.

Ben

On 10/2/07, Victor Tikhonov <[email protected]> wrote:
> To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
> (or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
> Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
> Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
> (microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
> Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
>
> In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
> software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
> profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
> executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".
>
> It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
> any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?
>
> Victor
>
> Mark Dutko wrote:
> > Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
> > firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
> > program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
> > and is not an exact process.
> >


> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Having reverse engineered an NGx series control board I can tell you that
it's one of the most retarded intelligent chargers you could imagine.

The uController is used as little more than a PLC.

Apart from a slightly dodgy inrush current supressor circuit, the power
stage is a very clean, simple, and conservative design.

I've had a replacement control board design on CAD for ages and may get
around to buidling and testing it sometime. You could drop a daughter board
into the ST6 processor socket and use you favorite flavour of uContoller
instead.


Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A few additional questions for the group:

1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it improved any
aspect of your charging?

2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never reported
any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the Zivan
specs on electroauto.com.

Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and 144v, whereas
the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That suggests
that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean that he's
undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing the Zivan
by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?

(I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have to buy a
charger and will have to decide between these models.)

3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a charge and
need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan would
not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the charger or
to the pack?

Thanks for any guidance you may have.

Steve Kobb
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Yes, all your points about microcontrollers are accurate, due to their
> > much reduced complexity vs. PC architectures. But I think Victor's point
> > was that regardless of whether you program your Brusa, etc. with a PC,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello list 

Its also a price question. The Zivan charger is fully isolated and is
cheaper than, say, Brusa. And most folks don't change the battery
configuration often enough to think to deeply about not being able to
're-program' their chargers.

I had some, well, unfortunate experiences with EV stuff made in
Switzerland. My Zivan (NG-3) is doing its work and, AFAIK, its doing it
well.

As usual, just my two cents.

mm.

>
> A few additional questions for the group:
>
> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it improved any
> aspect of your charging?
>
> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never
> reported
> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the Zivan
> specs on electroauto.com.
>
> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and 144v,
> whereas
> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That
> suggests
> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean that he's
> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing the
> Zivan
> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>
> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have to buy
> a
> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>
> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a charge and
> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan would
> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the charger
> or
> to the pack?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ben wrote:
> 
> > I interpreted Mark's statement a little differently -- I think he was
> > stating that the Zivan sellers have claimed that the PC software used
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's odd, I have a 192v pack and I have an NG3 that works fine. It 
only puts in about 8 amps but it is just my onboard charger. I have 
an NG5 in my garage that is for the higher amp charging.
The NG3 is slow but it can fully charge the pack.
Lately I've been thinking that I should get rid of both of them and 
just get one of Rich's chargers since it could do the job of both of 
them (although sacrificing the isolation).
I don't think there is any harm in not letting a charge cycle 
complete. I think the problems arise when the pack is chronically 
undercharged or discharged too low.
The charger shouldn't be stressed at all by ending the cycle early.

-Jeremy



> Steve Kobb wrote:
> 
> >
> > A few additional questions for the group:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

An option to consider would be two Zivans, one 120V for opportunity 
charges and one 240 for quick charging-


> Jeremy Green wrote:
> 
> > That's odd, I have a 192v pack and I have an NG3 that works fine. It
> > only puts in about 8 amps but it is just my onboard charger. I have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's what I have and it works great. You can even run both for 
even faster charging...

-Jeremy



> Mark Dutko wrote:
> 
> > An option to consider would be two Zivans, one 120V for opportunity
> > charges and one 240 for quick charging-
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been using a Russco on my floodies for several years - It works, 
but...the charger of choice it the Rudman PFC-20. BTW, I don't have regs 
installed.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others


> Thanks Bill, I'm glad you could sum it up so well for me. Seems weird
> that it doesn't have some sort of current limiter; even my K&W has that.
> I think if I get a Zivan I may leave the K&W in the vehicle, just for
> "limp charge" opportunity situations. Plugging into 110 is handy.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on the Russco chargers?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Hunter
>
> p.s. Sorry to all for igniting the Zivan charger holy wars.
>
>


> Bill Dube wrote:
> >> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> >> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> >> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ben wrote:
> 
> > Zivan doesn't let end users program the
> > chargers because they want to capitalize on the additional revenue
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor (and All),
Actually, I like listening to just one radio station, the local community station without commercials! I'm not sure I understand your analogy, because you are comparing a $1000 charger to a $3000 to $5000 charger (that you sell), but I guess you get what you pay for!
Suck Amps,
BB


>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:21:58 -0700
>From: Victor Tikhonov
>
>My understanding is, while Zivan chargers are very programmable,
>they are just not *user* programmable, which makes them far less
>versatile than they would've been if Zivan would changed this policy.
>
>Sort of buying a radio fixed-tuned to one radio station you
>specified at the time of purchase. To listen to something else,
>you send radio back to manufacturer to turn the dial for you.
>A bit silly.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > I can't speak to why Zivan may have the policies they do, however, the
> > main reason that we (Delta-Q) don't allow our users to create their own
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:

> Victor (and All), Actually, I like listening to just one radio
> station, the local community station without commercials!

That's just you though.

So you can buy a pre-tuned radio with dial button removed then.
That's what Zivan is.

I wouldn't buy a radio if I only can listen one station on it,
even favorite one. What's wrong with ability to tune it without
calling manufacturer??

> I'm not
> sure I understand your analogy, because you are comparing a $1000
> charger to a $3000 to $5000 charger (that you sell), but I guess you
> get what you pay for! Suck Amps, BB

That's right. But the issue is, BRUSA don't cost 3-5k just because
they are programmable. $1k Zivan's are also programmable, but
company policy prevents users doing it. Allowing it would not
change charger's cost, but I think would increase value for the user.

Like radio with stuck dial looses its resale value, right?
And, restoring tuning ability does not increase cost of radio,
but it's far more versatile now. I can't believe you have hard
time understanding this.

Victor

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>99% of the microcomputers produced are not suitable for such
> applications. They are built to be cheap; not good, and have huge
> numbers of failure modes that can turn on outputs when they shouldn't be on.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor-

I think Brusa's good rep may also be helped by the fact that the price
of the Brusa keeps it safely out of the hands of newbs like me ;-)

However, yes, should I see a Brusa on Ebay for a Zivan-ish price (not
that I can imagine someone selling their Brusa...what would you be
upgrading to?), I'll be all over it.

Hunter



> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > > I can't speak to why Zivan may have the policies they do, however, the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > I wonder then now BRUSA manages to maintain excellent reputation
> > while having open charger design (their main customers are
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ben wrote:
> 
> > I hope you didn't consider that too critical Roger -- It might have
> > come out that way.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > But the issue is, BRUSA don't cost 3-5k just because
> > they are programmable. $1k Zivan's are also programmable, but
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steve Kobb wrote:
> > Lee! You've got my undivided attention! I'm getting to the point in
> > my first conversion where I'll have to decide on a charger. I've
> > been thinking of getting a Zivan, but the "defective chip scenario"
> ...


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