# Is an EV conversion really cost effective?



## buhce (May 2, 2008)

Hi,

I've recently had the urge to want to build myself an electric car, that can at least match my current petrol powered car in terms of economy(42-45mpg).However, as I've read more about EV's I've become unsure about a few things. Are they really cost effective? I understand that lead acids need replacing every so often and that is expensive, but what about the other parts? How reliable are all the parts required in an EV and how expensive to replace? I understand that it would depend on many differing circumstances, but I suppose generally I just want to know, are Self converted EV's, really that cost effective, when compared to current petrol powered cars?


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## kogan (May 27, 2008)

It all depends on what you're comparing a converted EV to and what kind of EV you want. If you find an old donor car and buy the minimum amount of engine power/batteries you need, you can put together a street ev for $5000 or less. Comparing that to a reliable (used) gas car at $5000-$10,000, you'll save money right off the bat since electricty costs almost nothing compared to gas. If you have to pay $1000 for batteries every three years, its still currently cheaper than gas.

When you spend $10,000 or more on your EV, it becomes a bit more complicated as far as cost effectiveness goes.

Or you can just think of it this way. Oil is limited and the prices continue to rise. Once it is at $10-$15 per gallon (maybe in 5, maybe in 15 years), it will be cheaper to convert it to electric than pay for a year's worth of gas.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

I have read from various lists that it basically seems to be the same long term economy for many. The motors will last nearly forever if you don't abuse them. I have a very old Prestolite that still hums along nearly silent, after spending a full life in some industrial equipment. With an inexpensive set of bearings and brushes every ten years or so, it could probably last longer then me.

If you manage to properly cool everything, then the only thing that should wear out in an EV drivetrain are the batteries, the throttle sensor, the contactors, the above mentioned brushes and bearings, and of course the standard car bits.

Of course some seem to find just the right balanced setup and say that there EV saves them alot of money. I guess YMMV (your mileage may vary) really does apply here.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

at $4 a gallon,i spend about $50 a week for gas to JUST go to work.no side trips, nada.thats $2600 a year,about the price of a good lead acid battery pack that should last 2 years or more.so when gas climbs higher than $4/gallon it will be even more cost effective.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

The daily running cost of an EV is much lower than an ICE. In my case I project that my cost for power will be about 1/3 that of petrol. If I consider the batteries as fuel used up over a period of three years then I only come out marginally better off. However I expect my costs to remain relatively static while I expect the cost of petrol to continue to climb. The rest of the car is also obviously somewhat more expensive than an equivalent ICE. Not having completed my conversion yet I cannot comment on reliability from experience. The car is how ever quite a bit simpler than an ICE with arguably a lot less servicing required.

There are other justifications for the project other than an individuals own economic ones. Releiving the country of a small part of the economic burden of having to import huge quantities of essential supplies (energy)and the dependence on foreign powers that creates. The notion that the age of oil is slowly drawing to a close and the desire to conserve some of that resource for things that are difficult to achieve with something else such as air travel. The ecology and the desire for our offspring to inherit a world in a good liveable condition. The local pollution issues caused by internal combustion engines i.e. the people dying of respiratory illness contributed to by exhaust fumes from cars. The desire to drive a superior technology toward a critical mass (one car at a time) etc.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

I have seen some interesting ways people have calculated EV economy. Here is one way I like:

ICE economy = (gas price / mpg) + ((maintenance cost for one year - tires) / miles driven in a year)

This should give you a raw "per mile" cost of operating the ICE car.

So for my 1988 Honda Accord Hatchback as a reference since I have no VW bug numbers: (4.19 / 27) + (380 / 5800) = 0.16 + 0.07 = 0.23 a mile

Notice that less miles driving around town cost much more per mile in a ICE then more miles on the freeway. Also most people on the web seem to forget about oil/coolant changes when they add up the maintenance.

EV economy = (electricity price / mpk) + ((battery pack price / years it lasts) / miles per year)

Grabbing some rough numbers from the evalbum for 96V bugs using GC batteries: (0.079 / 3.23 miles per KWh) + ((1280 / 2) / 5800) = 0.02 + 0.11 = 0.13 a mile

This is using standard quality GC batteries, driving 15 miles day (50-60% DOD), and charging every day. Sure seems to make sense for a small around-the-town car or local commuter in the NW USA. Going further, lets see about equipment amortization:

Conversion cost over the base ICE vehicle not including batteries / (miles per year * how long you keep the car) = $2100 / (5800 * 6) = 0.05 a mile

Note also that my conversion cost is unusually low because I took out the cost of a ICE engine since I plan to use a kit car. But if you sell the donor ICE you can take that out of your conversion cost as well.

So, 0.11 + 0.5 = 0.16 a mile over a life of 6 years and 34,800 miles. This assumes gas prices do NOT go up or down during that period. This means I will save at least $2436 over six years. Not spectacular, but that is not why I am doing it anyways. As long as it does not cost me MORE to drive electric, I am happy. 

It *does* pay for a brand new four wheel disc brake kit, premium coilover shocks, a full set of nice gauges, leather seats, a new Flaming River tilt steering column with a Grant signature oak steering wheel, and a kicking stereo. So I get to tool around in style and not feel guilty.


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## Thalass (Dec 28, 2007)

Well that depends on what you want. I'm fairly sure that if you only want a short range, less than say 60km, and you don't want mind-bending performance... then yeah, I think you ought to at least break even. 

EVs have little in the way of running costs. A dollar or two to recharge, distilled water if you go with flooded lead acids (once a month or so), brushes if you go with a brushed DC motor (every 100,000km, I think), and the cost of new batteries every couple of years. 


I have read from others that LiFePO4 batteries can work out to be just as cheap as leads in the long run, but their initial cost is a good 2-3x that of lead, with the advantage of being lighter per Wh, and requiring a smaller rated pack due to better DoD limits. 


As far as a more fancy conversion goes... I'm not sure. I want to use a 3-phase AC induction motor, as well as LiFePO4 batteries, so I'm probably looking at $15k for my conversion as a minimum - the batteries will cost $10k alone! I'm hoping to scavenge an industrial motor, and hopefully build my own motor controller. But either way I'm going with lithium batteries. 

The batteries should last a minimum of 2000cycles, iirc. So driving every day will get me roughly 5 years to a pack at least, and around 100,000km. Which will be 13c/km (2c/km for charging, 11c/km for the cost of the batteries). This is compared to 15c/km for fuel alone on my ICEmobile. And battery prices should be going down over the years!


Of course my usage could be only driving to work and back (six days out of twelve), which would nearly double my battery life - assuming shelf life issues don't come into play, but the cost per km should stay around the same with grid power. I've been looking at off-grid power sourcing like wind power or solar power as well, which would eliminate the charging cost in theory. 


So yeah... it varies, but don't expect to be rolling in money after your conversion.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Regarding the question as to the life expectancy to the parts such as controller, motor, BMS etc would it be fair to say that if I were to spend $20,000NZ on a high quality conversion, I could re-use these parts in the next conversion and they would last at least 5 years between conversions??


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

regarding the costs of ICE cars, people often bring up the price of petrol while ignoring other costs:

-antifreeze top-ups
-antifreeze changes (flush & fill)
-oil top-up
-oil changes
-tuneups (spark plugs, etc.)
-replacing worn exhaust components
-engine maintenance (in some cases, rebuilds!)
-hose and belt replacement
-replacing or rebuilding worn ancillary systems (water pumps, alternators, etc.)


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Manntis said:


> regarding the costs of ICE cars, people often bring up the price of petrol while ignoring other costs:
> 
> -antifreeze top-ups
> -antifreeze changes (flush & fill)
> ...



Your so right my ute has only done 120,000 miles and already the engine needs an over haul, there goes $2000


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Your so right my ute has only done 120,000 miles and already the engine needs an over haul, there goes $2000


Right, but with lead, assuming a 40 mile range and 500 charges per pack, comes out to the equivalent of spending for an entire engine rebuild every 20,000 miles! That is not what I would call mainenance free! This is something that people who have just finished their EV conversion are in active denial of when they are smiling on their way past the gas station day to day, but all their day to day savings will evaporate when they replace their pack.

The only good thing is that such expenses are relatively constant, whereas gas prices are only heading up. So in time when you compare the two, the math will work out better and better. But there is no denying that EVs are not the free ride people think they are. That won't be true unless batteries get a lot cheaper or last a lot longer.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Right, but with lead, assuming a 40 mile range and 500 charges per pack, comes out to the equivalent of spending for an entire engine rebuild every 20,000 miles! That is not what I would call mainenance free! This is something that people who have just finished their EV conversion are in active denial of when they are smiling on their way past the gas station day to day, but all their day to day savings will evaporate when they replace their pack


of course there are other sorts of batteries besides lead that may be more expensive but will last far longer. And before you say "yeah, but you'll have to replace your lithium packs every 20 years" remember that most people replace their entire car sooner than that.


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Regarding the question as to the life expectancy to the parts such as controller, motor, BMS etc would it be fair to say that if I were to spend $20,000NZ on a high quality conversion, I could re-use these parts in the next conversion and they would last at least 5 years between conversions??


$DEITY, yes! I reduced my conversion cost by stripping the parts from an older EV. It was a '70s Oldsmobile station wagon; one of the more ugly cars I've ever seen. I took the motor, controller, DC/DC converter, E-Meter, electric cable, and miscellaneous accessories like contactors, fuses and shunts, put them into a car that I liked better, added new batteries, and drove away.

About the only parts you won't be able to reuse are the ones that aren't rated for your new voltage or current -- and the batteries and transmission adapter.

The motor will last forever, unless you're racing it or otherwise abusing it. The ADC 9" is $1735, from EVParts.com. It's very flexible with respect to voltage, so it should be usable in whatever you choose next. It does need minor maintenance: new brushes every 100,000km or so.

The controller is a voltage-critical part, but with $20,000, you should be able to get a Zilla Z1K-EHV from EVParts.com for $2875. It's usable from 72V to 348V, and its 1000A output should be sufficient for anything less than an industrial truck (although it might make that move, too). That voltage range is ideal for almost any conversion you might make, so you get to keep that, too. If you've got money to burn, go for the Z2K-EHV. But beware: that way lie dragons. Uh, I mean drag racing.

The DC/DC converter (if you decide to use one) is one of the most voltage-critical parts in the car. The majority of them are designed to work within narrow voltage ranges. If your second conversion is the same voltage as your first, you can take it with you. Otherwise, buy a new one. That said, this Vicor DC-DC converter is only $226 from EVParts.com and handles 66-160V.

Contactors are usually the only other item in the conversion (besides the batteries) that goes over $100/piece. Buy oversized ones, like the Czonka III, which can break 2000A at 320V, $187 at EVParts.com, and you can take them to the next conversion, too. Keep your transmission, and you'll only need two or three, depending on your safety and accessory features.

I realize this sounds like a commercial for EVParts.com. It's not; they're just a very easy place to look stuff up. I'm not associated with them in any way other than 'occasional customer'. I'm just trying to point out how much the big components are going to cost, and what you can expect to reuse on the next conversion.

The big expenses that you can't take with you are the batteries and the transmission adapter. If you go clutchless, you don't need an adapter; if you use a compatible model of car, you can reuse the original; otherwise you're out something like $900 or $your time and effort. The batteries might be reusable, too, if you're not too keen on upgrading to new tech, you can find space for them, and you haven't driven them dry.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Right, but with lead, assuming a 40 mile range and 500 charges per pack, comes out to the equivalent of spending for an entire engine rebuild every 20,000 miles! That is not what I would call mainenance free! This is something that people who have just finished their EV conversion are in active denial of when they are smiling on their way past the gas station day to day, but all their day to day savings will evaporate when they replace their pack.
> 
> The only good thing is that such expenses are relatively constant, whereas gas prices are only heading up. So in time when you compare the two, the math will work out better and better. But there is no denying that EVs are not the free ride people think they are. That won't be true unless batteries get a lot cheaper or last a lot longer.


Check out the math above. All the savings do not evaporate, but they are greatly lowered from many people's overly high expectations. 

Given that the cost of standard preventive maintenance over the course of 3-4 years can be as high as an engine rebuild itself, you have to compare two battery packs to that engine rebuild (the cost of the rebuild, plus the cost of keeping the engine running until the rebuild)

So at 500 charges, then two packs = four years = one pack's worth of maintenance + one pack's worth of engine rebuild. Of course if you have a BIG pack with a 50-70 mile range, then you have seriously wacked up the economic balance mentioned above and are on your own.

I myself do not see any real savings in high mileage (over 10K a year) EV conversions at this time. But then as I said before, as long as it does not cost you any EXTRA to drive an EV, it is all good right?


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Lexus said:


> At the moment here in Japan the Price of Fuel is ¥175 a litre or .2 of a Gallon (¥700 a Gallon( ¥700 = US$6.65)) The wife has to travel to Tokyo from Ichihara which is over 60 Kilometres away so that is 120 K's per day .. so 600 Kilometres per week .. now we own a Lexus GS450 Hybrid but the fuel tank still takes about 55 to 60 Litres ... and we will use that in a week





Lexus said:


> so 55 L at ¥175 = ¥9,625 or US$91.53 per week over 52 weeks $4,759
> 
> She takes the Train now but that cost ¥33,000 or US$ 313.80 a month so over 1 year US$3,765.60
> 
> ...




Ouch! Some of the Lexus hybrids take their hybrid advantage as increased performance rather than economy. A 3.5 litre V6 that goes like a 4.5 litre V8 but with a fuel economy no better than other 3.5 litre V6's. Unfortunately economy and performance are opposite sides of the same coin. Generally speaking what enhances one diminishes the other. 

This is another area where electric cars can be different depending on equipment used. We can get lithium ion batteries which retain a very high charge recovery even when we subject them to very high drains so they still retain almost full capacity in high drain situations. This coupled with the very high efficiency of our motors and controllers means the efficiency penalty of high performance in an EV can be very very low compared to an ICE car. 

Wether a vehicle does zero to sixty in two seconds or twenty it still carries the same kinetic energy when it gets there so the essential amount of energy required is determined by the speed and is independent of the rate of acceleration. But a system capable of delivering the high acceleration will be very powerful and with high power handling ability comes large loses and exaggerated inefficiencies generally speaking. An EV can break this rule. An ICE car cannot. If it’s capable of delivering a 2.5 second zero to sixty it might require a 2000 hp engine. The same car might require just 20 hp at its back wheels to cruise at 60 mph. That is just 1% of its total available power. Such a tiny part throttle power ensures huge inefficiencies. Some engine types are worse, a turbine for instance can use 40% of its full throttle fuel consumption at idle.

I see the choice of battery in an EV as critical to high performance high efficiency. Flooded lead acids for instance can be quite inefficient under high power demand. Charge recovery can easily drop to 50% while some lithium ions remain over 90% even at peak discharge rates and 97% at 3C discharge rate.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Manntis said:


> of course there are other sorts of batteries besides lead that may be more expensive but will last far longer. And before you say "yeah, but you'll have to replace your lithium packs every 20 years" remember that most people replace their entire car sooner than that.


The shelf life of lithium phosphate batteries is untested. All we know is how many times you can charge them. And because of the price premium on lithium they would HAVE to last 20 years for the amortized cost per mile to be cheap, even if you have to transplant them from one worn out glider to the next.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

VDubber said:


> I myself do not see any real savings in high mileage (over 10K a year) EV conversions at this time. But then as I said before, as long as it does not cost you any EXTRA to drive an EV, it is all good right?


It's all good if that's all you were expecting out of it. But think of it this way. Even if the EV1 had been mass produced (let's say with lead acids) people would probably now be bitching and moaning about how they have to keep replacing the battery packs. Those were all leases and so that was a nonfactor. Some of them got replacement NIMH packs within the lease. (I wonder whether the Delco lead acid batteries were even "faulty" or just experiencing the usual short lifespan.) Instead a mystique has been built up about EVs because of Who Killed the Electric Car and the series of youtube videos and bloggings that have taken place by converters. That's how I became interested in EVs until my excitement was tempered after realizing how often I'd have to replace those damn lead acid battery packs. Now I'm kind of stuck in a paralysis waiting for lithium to come down in price enough that I could justify it even if the pack wears out after 4-5 years.

Beyond range, battery life (cycle AND shelf life) is the missing component in the math equation. EV enthusiasts should not try to obfuscate the point and just accept it.

Something like the EEStor Ultracaps or much cheaper lithium would solve the problem once and for all. Until then, EVs continue to have that looming cost disadvantage in the battery replacement costs. That's why things like Ebikes are such a better value, since they don't need such large battery packs, so periodic replacement is not such a big hit on the wallet.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

saab96 said:


> The shelf life of lithium phosphate batteries is untested. All we know is how many times you can charge them. And because of the price premium on lithium they would HAVE to last 20 years for the amortized cost per mile to be cheap, even if you have to transplant them from one worn out glider to the next.


So - if you're negative on SLAs and lithiums... what are you doing for your EV? NiMHs? Hamster wheels?



saab96 said:


> It's all good if that's all you were expecting out of it. But think of it this way. Even if the EV1 had been mass produced (let's say with lead acids) people would probably now be bitching and moaning about how they have to keep replacing the battery packs. Those were all leases and so that was a nonfactor. Some of them got replacement NIMH packs within the lease. (I wonder whether the Delco lead acid batteries were even "faulty" or just experiencing the usual short lifespan.) Instead a mystique has been built up about EVs because of Who Killed the Electric Car and the series of youtube videos and bloggings that have taken place by converters. That's how I became interested in EVs until my excitement was tempered after realizing how often I'd have to replace those damn lead acid battery packs. Now I'm kind of stuck in a paralysis waiting for lithium to come down in price enough that I could justify it even if the pack wears out after 4-5 years.


Ah, so you're sitting on the sidelines waiting.

BTW - I had the pleasure of speaking at length with Chelsea Sexton, the passionate redhead GM employee who was with the EV1 from the beginning. Customer response was overwhelmingly positive - not a "mystique", but real world experience from people who actually had the cars as daily drivers. Even the ones who started with SLA EV1s.



saab96 said:


> Something like the EEStor Ultracaps or much cheaper lithium would solve the problem once and for all.


with a HUGE safety risk. The advantage of Ultracaps - being able to store and release energy rapidly - is the very thing that makes them dangerous. If you get in a collision and a cap is compromised, it could set off a chain reaction that'll make people think you had a trunk full of IEDs.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

saab96 said:


> That's how I became interested in EVs until my excitement was tempered after realizing how often I'd have to replace those damn lead acid battery packs. Now I'm kind of stuck in a paralysis waiting for lithium to come down in price enough that I could justify it even if the pack wears out after 4-5 years.


Ahh - but is that not a big part of what makes EVs so great; being able to easily upgrade them as new battery technologies become available? Voltage is voltage, right?

Me, I'd rather drive then dream. When my old-fashioned (and quite affordable) golf cart batteries are getting dreary in two years or so, dropping in a set of 12v lithium modules (with integrated BMS of course) should be cake. If the tech is not ready yet, then I simply pick the batteries at the time that make the most sense, and repeat.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

judebert said:


> $DEITY, yes! I reduced my conversion cost by stripping the parts from an older EV. It was a '70s Oldsmobile station wagon; one of the more ugly cars I've ever seen. I took the motor, controller, DC/DC converter, E-Meter, electric cable, and miscellaneous accessories like contactors, fuses and shunts, put them into a car that I liked better, added new batteries, and drove away.


Thank you very much judebert, I know you wise and... ahem older  converters with vast experience must get a bit tiresome with us newbies basic questions, so thanks again and I'm sure I'll post even more exciting questions and comments when I learn more 

On that note, I posted a question regarding the calculation I had made for my battery pack requirements - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45556#post45556

was I close? Im also going AC for this conversion, I like flashing lights and beeping noises haha


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## dfwheelman (May 15, 2008)

Well, I'm going to chime in with a "For what its worth" post.... 

I'd say one's motivations for attempting an EV conversion project are:

1) Bored. A man needs a project!
2) Stick it to the man!
3) Tree hugger that cares about the environment
4) Conscientious objector - Objecting to never ending War for Oil

Now, those that think they are even making a dent in the overall environmental situation are just delusional, I'm sorry, its the truth. Our individual carbon footprint comes from much more than our meager automobiles. If you haven't changed your lightbulbs to CF then you aren't an environmentalist and shouldn't use global warming as an excuse to build an EV  (there's humor in there somewhere)

I'm probably in the #1 crowd, with #2 closely behind.

The fact is, the other poster was right on with "cost savings". You're not "saving" cost, you're shifting costs around. Instead of spending money on petro products (oil, tranny oil, gas, oil changes, oil filters that you toss in the trash, air filters, ICE related maintenance) you're shifting this cost to something else (battery replacement, thank god they are recyclable). 

But since I haven't begun my project yet (still convincing myself that I'm really THAT bored), This is all subjective. lastly, if I started today I could have it done in a month probably, and in 2 years from now I'd wager that the costs for LiFEPO4 batteries will come down significantly in price. That would give us a huge edge, because in 2 yrs, unless some miracle happens, gasoline will be $6-$7 a gallon here in the USA.


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## Thalass (Dec 28, 2007)

haha I'm the same, both #1 and #2. I'm really sick of lining up at the petrol station like a junky to fork over $80 for a tank of jesus juice. 

The thing I really like about electricity is that it is trivial to generate your own. Building a wind turbine is fairly simple, and the same kind of generator for that can be used with a steam engine, ICE, pedal-power, anything really. It's not just independence from foreign oil, but independence from everything (except the battery manufacturers ). 

But then I also want to build my own wind turbine to power my house, as well, for much the same reasons.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Manntis said:


> BTW - I had the pleasure of speaking at length with Chelsea Sexton, the passionate redhead GM employee who was with the EV1 from the beginning. Customer response was overwhelmingly positive - not a "mystique", but real world experience from people who actually had the cars as daily drivers. Even the ones who started with SLA EV1s.


Why wouldn't they be happy? None of them had to pay out of pocket to replace battery packs.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Why wouldn't they be happy? None of them had to pay out of pocket to replace battery packs.


Many were willing to pay that and more.

And, as we already covered, charging and battery pack replacements are still cheaper than fuel and ongoing maintenance on ICE cars.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Well I reckon here in the UK an EV is very cost effective, we probably have the most expensive fuel costs in the world and the government and opposition party are both commited to keeping it that way, whilst hitting us with a big green excuse for more tax stick. 

At present the average cost of a litre of petrol is £1.20, this equates to around $9.50 per US gallon! On top of this we have to pay an annual road tax, this is currently over $400 for most small cars (by our standards, not US, for that read tiny!) and set to increase massively shortly for anything running anything much bigger than a lawnmower engine, ie $800 dollars or so!

With an electric car, there is no road tax and electricity costs, although double what you pay in the US are kept down as much as possible with political pressure, so the differential can only get bigger.

Also, although not relevent to myself, anyone who drives in central london pays a $15 per day tax!!, there is talk of this increasing to $50, yes thats not a misprint!, electric cars are exempt from this tax also...

And you all think $4-$5 a gallon is a bad deal, we could only dream of such low cost motoring!


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

dfwheelman said:


> I'd say one's motivations for attempting an EV conversion project are:
> 
> 1) Bored. A man needs a project!
> 2) Stick it to the man!
> ...


5) Cheap miserly Bastard!!

For me its #5 then #2 then#1 then #5

I'm sick to death of the upward spiral of fuel costs
The flamin' government here reckons they cant do squat about it cos it's world oil prices and not under their control. 

YEAH RIGHT. 
Let's see. They put a fuel excise on it, Then they put the GST on that so we are paying a tax on a tax. Then the local state governments do the same.

In Australia we have an oil field thats bigger than the whole state of TEXAS!! We are very nearly fuel independent.
"BUT" when it's winter in Europe our prices go up.
A sheik dies our prices go up.
Some snot nosed ************ gets hold of a bomb on the other side of the world and our prices go up.

Fair dinkum it would drive a bloke to drink! 
Wait a mo! they do the same to that - excise then GST.

Stuff em all 

I'll run on electrons

Sorry for the rant not


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Now I'm kind of stuck in a paralysis waiting for lithium to come down in price enough that I could justify it even if the pack wears out after 4-5 years.


I was the same way for years (although in my case it was NiMH). Eventually my ICE started to break down, and I decided to get off the fence. The big component in the decision was the easy upgrade path, though. I know I'm going to be replacing the battery pack in 2 - 5 years; why should I continue to put up with the hassle of an ICE for that long when I can drive an EV while I wait for battery price to come down? By the time I'm ready to replace the pack, better tech will be available. And I can nearly just drop it in and keep going.

(Incidentally, I get longer time on battery swap because my required range is so low, and my pack therefore so oversized, that I run shallow discharges.)


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Thank you very much judebert, I know you wise and... ahem older  converters with vast experience must get a bit tiresome with us newbies basic questions, so thanks again and I'm sure I'll post even more exciting questions and comments when I learn more


Older? *Older?* Why, you wipper-snapper, I'm only 40 years young! And _get off my e-lawn!_

There's a wiki (which you've already found) for the most common questions, and anything else is what I'm here for. Of course, I often have to rely on the EVDL for my own questions; everybody's a newb somewhere.



Grant_NZ said:


> On that note, I posted a question regarding the calculation I had made for my battery pack requirements - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45556#post45556
> 
> was I close? Im also going AC for this conversion, I like flashing lights and beeping noises haha


I'm not too familiar with AC stuff. The bells and whistles are important, though: you'll likely be keeping this car for a long, LONG time, since the electronic components aren't going to wear out any time soon. Make sure it's something you love.

However, the battery pack sizing is reasonably elementary. You correctly calculated that you need 54000 Wh to get your expected range at your expected power level, and 35% was the correct safety factor for Li-Ion batteries (so far as I can tell). However, the next step is to figure out how many Ah you need; for that, you divide your required Wh by the system voltage.

You seem to have picked 540V to get to 100Ah batteries. That works, supposing you can find a motor and controller that'll work at 540V. Otherwise, you want to pick your propulsion system first, then use its requirements to find out what kind of batteries you'll need.

For instance, if you decide to go with the Simovert inverter at metricmind.com, you'll want to run it at 350V (with an appropriate motor). So now you need a battery pack that supplies both 54000Wh and 350V; therefore its capacity must be 54000 / 350 = 154.3Ah. 

Actually _making_ that battery pack isn't necessarily going to be easy. They don't make 154.3Ah LiOn batteries. You could try and create them out of other cells wired in parallel and series, but that will quickly lead to a nightmare of a battery management system. Instead, you pick the smallest capacity battery that fills your needs. I know they make 200Ah batteries. To reach your system voltage of 350V from the 12V 200Ah modules, you'll need 350V / 12V = 29.16667 modules. 

Of course, they don't sell them in .16667 bits. Luckily, we don't have to get exactly 350V (metricmind.com says that the inverter will function all the way down to 110V, but with reduced output power). If we just discard the extra .16667 module, we get 29 modules at 12 V = 348V. They have 200Ah each, so the whole pack has 348V x 200Ah = 69,600Wh. That's way more than your required 54,000Wh, so it'll actually get you _farther_ than your required 80 mile range.

Of course, it would be really expensive, too. You'll want to try out different motor/controller combinations to find one that comes close to your requirements *and* your budget.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

Manntis said:


> regarding the costs of ICE cars, people often bring up the price of petrol while ignoring other costs:
> 
> -antifreeze top-ups
> -antifreeze changes (flush & fill)
> ...



-antifreeze top-ups --------the cost for that is almost nothing. What does coolant cost maybe 5 bucks a jug? and that will last you how many years?
-antifreeze changes (flush & fill) ----- flush kit is 10 bucks plus 10 bucks for collant and thats a $20 project that you have every 3-5 years?
-oil top-up ------ unless the car is worn out its not going to need oil between changes. Even if it does you may be a quart low between changes so thats 2-5 bucks.
-oil changes ------ mobile one full synthetic (1 gallon jug/ 5 quarts) is 22 dollars and a purolator pure one filter is 6. My honda takes 4 quarts. Thats 24 bucks per oil change. If you do 5000 mile oil changes that is 50-75 bucks a year and that would cover every one that is considering and EV. 
-tuneups (spark plugs, etc.) ------you do that every 5-10 years. figure 100 bucks
-replacing worn exhaust components ----- 10 years or so figure 100 bucks
-engine maintenance (in some cases, rebuilds!) --- every 200,000 or more miles. You can't really put a price on that.
-hose and belt replacement ----- 30 bucks every 5-10 years
-replacing or rebuilding worn ancillary systems ----100,000 or so miles for most cars and that may be over the skill levels of most diyers so 3-400 bucks.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> -antifreeze top-ups --------the cost for that is almost nothing. What does coolant cost maybe 5 bucks a jug? and that will last you how many years?
> -antifreeze changes (flush & fill) ----- flush kit is 10 bucks plus 10 bucks for collant and thats a $20 project that you have every 3-5 years?
> -oil top-up ------ unless the car is worn out its not going to need oil between changes. Even if it does you may be a quart low between changes so thats 2-5 bucks.
> -oil changes ------ mobile one full synthetic (1 gallon jug/ 5 quarts) is 22 dollars and a purolator pure one filter is 6. My honda takes 4 quarts. Thats 24 bucks per oil change. If you do 5000 mile oil changes that is 50-75 bucks a year and that would cover every one that is considering and EV.
> ...


WOW - I've owned various Honda's for most of my adult life, and I have never had maintenance intervals that low and cheap. I call BS. I know that the spark plugs/wires do not last 5 years - and I'm driving miss daisy. Perhaps you have never owned a used car for a long period? I always try to put at least 5 years on each of my used autos (never have bought new), with some almost hitting 10. 

The Alt on my current Honda went out 2 years after I bought it. $100 - but tucked behind the engine and it took me hours to swap it out. After another 4 years the 'lifetime warranty' replacement is starting to go out. In 6 years I have went through 2 sets of wires, 3 sets of spark plugs, 2 dist caps and rotors. 5-10 years between tuneups? Not unless it's a relatively new car.

Flush kit? If you own a Honda, you will start chewing through water pumps by using a garden hose to help change your coolant. And I have to change the coolant every other year - at least.

As for the engine maintenance at 200,000 miles... nice marketing, but no. My 1988 Honda Accord needs a valve-lash adjustment every 75,000 miles. New timing belt (now that is a serious teardown) every 150,000. The inner oil seal in the dist went out at 185,000 on the odo - requiring a new dist because they won't sell just the seal.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Unless you buy a car off the lot, drive it for 4 years, then trade it in - you do not see that low of maintenance.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

Well I am speaking from 7.5 years of ownership and 80,000 miles it is sitting at 145,000 right now. I have a 1993 civic Ex. I have changed my plugs wires, cap and rotor 1 time. The car performs top notch and I am getting great mpg.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Ah, ok. That would explain it. Sorry for the harsh words, but realize that a 90's civic with low miles (yes, those are low miles) is at the faaaar short end of maintenence costs - compared to most other cars. Your car is rated by KBB and Edmunds as one of the most affordable to maintain.

P.S. but you will need to replace the timing belt - soon. They really do only live about 150-180K. And when it breaks, it will completely blow the engine since it is a interference design. I have punched a hole in a piston with a valve on my first Honda, when I did not head that warning froom the manufacturer. It bent the valve, cracked the piston rod, and trashed the camshaft bearing surface.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

I actually just did the timing belt and water pump about 20 thousand miles ago. So I figure by the time I have to do it again this car will be gone and I will be driving and EV... thats the plan anyways.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Back OT more or less - that sounds like a nice car to convert, since it has been so trouble free. The have motor adapters available for that model IIRC.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> -antifreeze changes (flush & fill) ----- flush kit is 10 bucks plus 10 bucks for collant and thats a $20 project that you have every 3-5 years?


Depends on your environment, I guess. Top-ups should be done annually, in the fall, flush and fill every 3-4 years. With environmental surcharges for proper disposal a flush and fill is about $60 - $80, not $20... and many places won't let you do it at home for fear of runoff killing neighborhood pets.



onesojourner said:


> -oil top-up ------ unless the car is worn out its not going to need oil between changes. Even if it does you may be a quart low between changes so thats 2-5 bucks.


You've never driven a rotary or two stroke, have you? Or a domestic 80's car? There are a lot of cars on the road with worn engines or, by it's very design, burn oil.



onesojourner said:


> -oil changes ------ mobile one full synthetic (1 gallon jug/ 5 quarts) is 22 dollars and a purolator pure one filter is 6. My honda takes 4 quarts. Thats 24 bucks per oil change. If you do 5000 mile oil changes that is 50-75 bucks a year and that would cover every one that is considering and EV.


Again you're overlooking environmental charges for disposal.



onesojourner said:


> -tuneups (spark plugs, etc.) ------you do that every 5-10 years. figure 100 bucks


Every 10 years? Not for most cars! After 10 years your plugs will be so fouled you'll be lucky to be able to start the thing to drive to the store to get new ones.



onesojourner said:


> -replacing worn exhaust components ----- 10 years or so figure 100 bucks


Show me where to get a new catalytic converter for $100, with new hangers, gaskets, etc. for the rest of the exhaust system thrown in free of charge.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

judebert said:


> Older? *Older?* Why, you wipper-snapper, I'm only 40 years young! And _get off my e-lawn!_
> 
> 
> Of course, they don't sell them in .16667 bits. Luckily, we don't have to get exactly 350V (metricmind.com says that the inverter will function all the way down to 110V, but with reduced output power). If we just discard the extra .16667 module, we get 29 modules at 12 V = 348V. They have 200Ah each, so the whole pack has 348V x 200Ah = 69,600Wh. That's way more than your required 54,000Wh, so it'll actually get you _farther_ than your required 80 mile range.


LOL 



yes oh great wise one  I see where you’re going with this and to my discovery, a motor and controller capable of handling 540v is mega expensive... and obviously a 348V x 200Ah battery pack producing 69,600Wh far exceeds what I need, sir. In that case I'll work on a budget using as you kindly worked out.... sir.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

One nice thing, is that those of us that have been enjoying an EV for a few years, know the fun of having one.

They are much cheaper to run than our old ICE, especially those of us that are using lower voltage. 

A new battery pack of LAs are under $600.00 and don't break the bank if they go out in 1 year.

Those who haven't built their's yet, can just set on the sidelines and watch and wait for the perfect combination to be brought forward.

Too bad..... 

Build and drive now......upgrade later.......enjoy...


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

Manntis said:


> Depends on your environment, I guess. Top-ups should be done annually, in the fall, flush and fill every 3-4 years. With environmental surcharges for proper disposal a flush and fill is about $60 - $80, not $20... and many places won't let you do it at home for fear of runoff killing neighborhood pets.
> 
> Well I have done it for years for 20 bucks, things are not very strict around here.
> 
> ...


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm going to quote the OP:



> ...that can at least match my current petrol powered car in terms of economy...


And the thread title is:

*Is an EV conversion really cost effective?*

So, after all have weighed in, the consensus - even from those that say EV's are not any cheaper - appears to be *Yes* and *Depends*.

Yes, an EV *can* be cost effective (as in COST THE SAME OR BETTER). Do not abuse it with your right foot, keep cooling in mind when building, and remember that it is not maintenance free, just a different form of maintenance. Don't expect monster range, try not to empty the pack every single day, don't buy really cheap batteries, and get a good charging setup.

Sound about right fellas?


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> Well I have done it for years for 20 bucks, things are not very strict around here.


We're discussing costs for most people. If you don't experience those costs, you're fortunate.



onesojourner said:


> A two stroke? I drive one every weekend but its not a car. I don't see how that applies.


Most two strokes burn oil, premixed with the gas.



onesojourner said:


> I can only speak for 2 cars. A 97 jeep and a 93 civic. I have had both for about 7+ years and thats how often I give them a complete tune up.


We're discussing costs for most people. If you don't experience those costs, you're fortunate.



onesojourner said:


> You are not going to need new hangers ect. You average exhaust shop is going to cut out the rusty worn parts and replace as little as possible. A cat is going to last many many years. We don't have emission testing so I have yet to replace one.


You need to replace hangers, etc. as they wear out. Rubber hangers + hot exhaust = failure over time. Pipes rust. Catalytic converters clog. Mufflers stop muffling.

And just because you're able to drive whether or not your converter is working, that's not the case for many people. 

All of the maintenance costs I've mentioned are real costs for many ICEV owners. And as another poster said elsewhere in the forum, EV ownership in the real world proves to cost less than ICEV ownership - in part because of those maintenance costs.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

VDubber your right. I am just playing devils advocate here in case no one has noticed. I think it totally depends on gas prices and location. Even with my car I would say we are at the thresh hold of "an ev makes since". I still think you are going to eat a good chunk of the conversion cost but after that I think the EV will easily pay for itself.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pqJz8FaAmRQtgkNcDmrlsXg


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## buhce (May 2, 2008)

saab96 said:


> The only good thing is that such expenses are relatively constant, whereas gas prices are only heading up. So in time when you compare the two, the math will work out better and better. But there is no denying that EVs are not the free ride people think they are. That won't be true unless batteries get a lot cheaper or last a lot longer.


True but the batteries still need delivering, presumably by petrol or diesel vehicles, so this would mean that battery prices would go up also, surely.So really the price of EV parts, is still dictated to some degree, by the oil companies.



VDubber said:


> I'm going to quote the OP:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. So from what I gather,the vehicle itself might be cost effective, but if your real consideration is how much money you're hemorrhaging building one isn't really worth it if you already have an ICE( I assume ICE means Internal Combustion Engine).


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

buhce said:


> True but the batteries still need delivering, presumably by petrol or diesel vehicles, so this would mean that battery prices would go up also, surely.So really the price of EV parts, is still dictated to some degree, by the oil companies.


Not if you live near a US Battery (GA & CA) or Trojan plant (??? & CA). But then the cases are made from petroleum - as are all large format batteries.



> Thanks for the reply. So from what I gather,the vehicle itself might be cost effective, but if your real consideration is how much money you're hemorrhaging building one isn't really worth it if you already have an ICE( I assume ICE means Internal Combustion Engine).


Well.... that depends. If gas prices keep going up, say to $6.00 a gallon, and you like to drive the same car for more then 4 years (which I do) - then it can pay for the conversion. Don't forget that you can sell the ICE for decent money sometimes (depends on make/model) to offset some of the price.

And then there are those that just like driving an EV! Call it the price of admission...


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## Dave_C (May 29, 2008)

As intimidating as the cost of a battery pack may seem, just look at it as a monthly cost. I'm looking at 10 SRM-29 batteries, that will cost me $700. If the batteries make it 2 years, that's $30 per month.
My projected electricity cost for my daily work commute and weekend driving will be $12 a month.

$42 a month operating cost beats the $125 a month I'm paying for gas. ($3.80 a gallon). 
All the aforementioned factors just add to the savings!


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

judebert said:


> The controller is a voltage-critical part, but with $20,000, you should be able to get a Zilla Z1K-EHV from EVParts.com for $2875. It's usable from 72V to 348V, and its 1000A output should be sufficient for anything less than an industrial truck (although it might make that move, too). That voltage range is ideal for almost any conversion you might make, so you get to keep that, too. If you've got money to burn, go for the Z2K-EHV. But beware: that way lie dragons. Uh, I mean drag racing.


Hi judebert,

Thank you again for your past help but I have a question regarding the Zilla 2k controller. 

I recently contacted PHET to price a 348V at 200Ah battery pack and their sales person came back with the following questions - 

What kind of application ：Electric Vehicle
Total voltage (V)：348V
The max. current for your controller (A)：2000A
The highest voltage for your controller (V)：348V
The lowest voltage for your controller (V)：72V
Total Ah for your battery packs (Ah)：200Ah
The max.discharge current (A)：1000
For how many seconds(Sec.)：
The constant discharge current (A)：
What's the charging Amp for your charger ?(A)


As you can see I've Filled out as much as I can by consulting Cafe Electric's website, but I was unable to find the answers for the blank spaces. Could you please help me to complete this? 


Many thanks 
Grant


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## COMP (Jun 4, 2008)

4 months to ship


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> I recently contacted PHET to price a 348V at 200Ah battery pack and their sales person came back with the following questions -
> 
> What kind of application ：Electric Vehicle
> Total voltage (V)：348V
> ...


 
tell them you want at least 2c constant discharge and 5c max discharge for 15 seconds and see what they offer.according to their specs they shuold be able to provide at least that much.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

at least 2C discharge but 3 would be nice. 15 seconds bare minimum.

the charger I would say 30 amps is a good way to charge and not take forever. the RAV4 EV charger is 50 amps.


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## RXHEAVEN (Jun 9, 2008)

DVR said:


> 5) Cheap miserly Bastard!!
> 
> For me its #5 then #2 then#1 then #5
> 
> ...


Very well said.... Supposedly we live in a democracy... My ass!


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

The problem with low voltage system/floodies or cheap AGMs is that you are using the batt. *at or above* their Ah/cycle life sweetspot limit. In other words, the route of buying lowtech and chepo batts. equals more frequent batt. replacement, which is IMHO wrong on many levels, enviro, costs, EV-PR because the EV is not working as expected or scores poorly against ICE etc.

So what is the alternative? Using higher quality lead and high voltage system combo, but this is prohibitively expensive. Obviously advanced gen batt. chemistries like NiMH, lithium etc. are out of the question for most of the diyers now and will remain in the midterm future.

It's a very delicate task to design the EV for your particular needs, budget, combination of parts used (donor platform, drive system/voltage & batteries)..

Another BIG problem is that nowadays there are virtually no options were to ger decent sub 1ton glider. It has been almost 2decades siince these were made by the big manufactureres. Nowadays is even 1ton car considered to be a "mini" by european standards. This is just ridiculous..

So, to sum it up, you want EV? Well, you are an early adopter, so be prepared to pay the premium be it money, research and diy time or both.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> tell them you want at least 2c constant discharge and 5c max discharge for 15 seconds and see what they offer.according to their specs they shuold be able to provide at least that much.


 
Thank you very much Joseph 

I gave the sales representative the information as michaeljayclark and youself suggested and they came back with the following - 

_Based on your answer for the application, the max. discharge current only 5A, constant discharge current only 3A. We just want to confirm if this data is right._

_Based on our experience, daily we are calculating on this, it shall be much bigger. Perhaps you have different design. If your answer is correct, please tell me right away. We can figure out the suitable cell for you._ 

According to them the outcome would be a higher voltage pack by the look of it, does that make sense?

Thanks again
Grant


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

I also just noticed that the total voltage is 348volts. Is this for a DC motor or an AC motor?

I have been told that for DC anything over 200 volts makes the brushes inside arc, not a good thing. I have yet to confirm this.

AC of course is different and I have seen a pack over 300 volts.

the highest Dc Ive seen is 196 volt. there are over that but they have two motors.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> I also just noticed that the total voltage is 348volts. Is this for a DC motor or an AC motor?


 
Hi michaeljayclark... 

Yes its for an AC motor - SIEMENS 1PV5135WS24 Induction


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> _Based on your answer for the application, the max. discharge current only 5A, constant discharge current only 3A. We just want to confirm if this data is right._
> 
> _Based on our experience, daily we are calculating on this, it shall be much bigger. Perhaps you have different design. If your answer is correct, please tell me right away. We can figure out the suitable cell for you._
> 
> ...


if your pack voltage is 348 volts you should only need about 100ah max for a good range.but you asked them for 200 amp hours.if you have a 2c constant discharge rate,you would have 400 amps constant discharge at 2c. at 5c you would have 1000 amps for 15 seconds.it appears they did not quite understand what you wanted.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> if your pack voltage is 348 volts you should only need about 100ah max for a good range.but you asked them for 200 amp hours.if you have a 2c constant discharge rate,you would have 400 amps constant discharge at 2c. at 5c you would have 1000 amps for 15 seconds.it appears they did not quite understand what you wanted.


Awesome, thanks joseph... I got a quote from a New Zealand based company, this is what they offered - 

_Hi Grant,_

_Heard back from the engineers at Lifebatt and they recommend sticking to the standard packs. They say for a one off application it’s uneconomical to design a 200Ah battery pack and will not be any smaller total footprint of the combined battery array anyway. As it is for a truck you’ve probably got some room to place the batteries. They have suggested that if you want exactly 200Ah then supplement some 12V 40Ah or 12V 80Ah units in the array to make the numbers work. The 40Ah & 80Ah packs being smaller physically may help also with placement/space issues – you can use them to fill gaps if the larger batteries don’t quite fit._

_So, some possible solutions are_

*Option 1: 2 strings of 29(per string) 12V 120Ah batteries giving you 348V 240Ah*

*Option2: 1 string of 29 (per string) 12V 120 Ah + 2 strings of 29 (per string) 12V 40Ah batteries giving you 348V 200Ah*

*Option 3: 1 string of 29 (per string) 12v 120Ah + 1 string of 29 (per string) 12V 80Ah batteries giving you a total 348V 200Ah*

_Standard pricing of these batteries are as below but as you are looking at a substantial quantity of batteries we are prepared to offer you wholesale prices which are as follows_


_12120-HPS 12v 120Ah battery $2878.00 + GST each (normal RRP $3735 inc GST) _
_1240-HPS 12v 40Ah battery $992.67 + GST each ( normal RRP$1288 inc GST) _
_1280-HPS 12v 80Ah battery $1981.00 + GST each (normal RRP $2409 inc GST)_


_Based on these pricings the various options will cost_

*Option 1: $166,924.00 + GST*
*Option 2: $141,036.86 + GST*
*Option 3: $140,911.00 + GST *


  I had to check my pants after reading that...


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

i just checked my pants too! 

that $12k 336v 60ah pack from zuhai is looking damn cheap right about now! 

check with anna at zuhai,you should be able to get that 336v pack at 100 ah and get 60 miles or so for about $18k.just a thought.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Hey Joseph

I tried to contact Anna but got put in contact with Sonia at Pihsiang Energy Technology, is that the place you were referring to? I think we had a miscommunication as per the last email I posted but when she gives me a price I'll let you know, although I think the freight  to New Zealand is going to be a killer. 
On another note, when you say '2c' does the 'c' stand for amps?


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

C is capacity in Ah so a 50Ah battery will put out 100A at 2C


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

They must be on drugs. KOKAM LiPo batteries are WAY cheaper. Ive been quoted 15K for a 144volt pack with no BMS.

copy and pasted from batteryuniversity.com

The charge and discharge current of a battery is measured in C-rate. Most portable batteries are rated at 1C. This means that a 1000mAh battery would provide 1000mA for one hour if discharged at 1C rate. The same battery discharged at 0.5C would provide 500mA for two hours. At 2C, the 1000mAh battery would deliver 2000mA for 30 minutes. 1C is often referred to as a one-hour discharge; a 0.5C would be a two-hour, and a 0.1C a 10-hour discharge.

they say this about LIPO batteries, I dont think its exactly correct because there are plenty of cars that use LIPO without problems :

Lithium-ion/polymer batteries are electronically protected against high load currents. Depending on battery type, the discharge is limited to between 1C and 2C. This protection makes the lithium ion unsuitable for biomedical equipment and power tools demanding high inrush currents. 

if they are not suitable for power tools then why are ALL the tool companies going to lithium ion batteries?


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> Lithium-ion/polymer batteries are electronically protected against high load currents. Depending on battery type, the discharge is limited to between 1C and 2C. This protection makes the lithium ion unsuitable for biomedical equipment and power tools demanding high inrush currents.
> 
> if they are not suitable for power tools then why are ALL the tool companies going to lithium ion batteries?


well, they do specify "power tools demanding high inrush currents" - but that said, so do EVs under heavy acceleration


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

another case that in theory they would not be able to withstand the heavy load but in real life they do just fine......

BUT their calculations are on a single battery, not a battery pack. Just about any battery would crack under a heavy load for an EV if it was just one single battery


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## electro-cuda (Jun 12, 2008)

Hi all,
I am new here, and relatively new to the world of EV's. I have been planning a conversion for some time, but haven't put rubber to the road yet. One thing I struggled with in the early stages of cost analysis was whether it was a fiscally responsible project. There have been some good points made here by both camps, but one I think has been largely overlooked (my apologies if I missed it). 
Money invested into an EV conversion is largely retained as an asset. Money spent on gasoline is gone as soon as your tank is empty. If you consider this, and look at your "costs" after X years of running an EV vs ICE, the balance may swing. If I spend $15,000 dollars on a conversion, several years down the road, much of that value will still be there. Money spent on gas, is quite literally, burned. It would take me only 6 years to go through $15,000 worth of gas in my car at CURRENT prices. 
A counter to this would be that 5-10 years from now, electric car conversions will cost a fraction of what the currently do. This is a probability rather than a possibility, but whether the drop in cost will offset the increase in fuel costs remains to be seen.


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## Dave_C (May 29, 2008)

electro-cuda said:


> It would take me only 6 years to go through $15,000 worth of gas in my car at CURRENT prices.


I'm betting that we will be paying in 2-3 years what the Europeans are paying today. All my cost/benefit projections are based on $4/gallon (I made them last month) and $6/gallon next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see $8-10/gallon within 5 years.

Here is my question - if 90% of metropolitan driving is done with EVs, what will be the impact on oil demand? Is there enough long-haul consumption to keep the prices so high?

The ICE party is over folks!


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> check with anna at zuhai,you should be able to get that 336v pack at 100 ah and get 60 miles or so for about $18k.just a thought.


I just received a quote on the 348V 120AH battery pack I require (attached) 

Not bad price compared to the last companies price and by today’s currency rate it works out to be about $71,000NZ. I budgeted for about 25-30k on a battery pack so I think I’m going to have to reduce the voltage. A 128V pack would be about $29,500NZ in today’s market...


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Dave_C said:


> Here is my question - if 90% of metropolitan driving is done with EVs, what will be the impact on oil demand?


I reckon the answer to that question is definatly YES and even valid at 20%


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

domestic demand, yes. Global demand... ehhh...

One of the reasons oil is so high right now is because of all the construction going on in China. About two decades ago they only had a few hundred miles of paved freeway - now it's tens of thousands and growing exponentially. Oil isn't just consumed as automobile fuel, but in the construction of roads (ever smelled fresh asphalt?) that cars drive on, the plastics that go in the cars interiors, and the buildings the cars go to and from - nevermind building and fueling the construction equipment for same.

EV cars will bring the price of fuels derived from oils down, but the demand for the stuff itself will still be there.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

even if demand drops and EVs cost the same as new vehicles then they will still be the better choice. EVs wont be cheap by the big boys, its the home builders that will keep the dream alive.

as soon as oil drops back down, if it ever does, from lack of demand you'll be sure that the big boys will jack the price of EVs up to start selling their goldmine ICE vehicles.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

In the 1970s the market supply for small, light aircraft tanked because manufacturers were concerned about the rising litigation from weekend pilots crashing their planes, then blaming (or their survivors blaming) the manufacturers in court.

Yet there's a thriving small aircraft industry today, with commercially built planes sharing the segment with homebuilts and kitplanes. Why? Grassroots builders. While manufacturers backed off, kit makers and garage tinkerers took up the torch and soldiered on. When manufacturers saw the sales numbers they couldn't resist jumping back into the fray.

I predict a similar emergence by Big Auto. In fact it's already happened; I was meeting with Ricardo Bazzarella a few months ago and he pointed out that it's because of relatively grassroot ventures such as Hymotion proving the demand, manufacturers are now releasing PHEVs.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

but in this case the grassroots need to keep going even after the big manufacturers start making the all electric cars.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> but in this case the grassroots need to keep going even after the big manufacturers start making the all electric cars.


IMHO it's the same case; when manufacturers see a lot of people doing something, they rush to make a product they can sell to profit from more people doing the same thing. EVs or frisbees, it's all the same to the beancounters.


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