# [EVDL] Energy Audit shock



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Guys,

Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question about=
what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.

When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house in=
an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I drop=
ped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER 16 high =
efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system w/programmable thermosta=
t, a computerized water heater that tracks your usage and only heats water =
during certain hours of the schedule that it learns from you. I've put near=
ly every light in the house on a motion sensitive switch (to counter forget=
ful users) and replaced nearly every bulb with CFL's. All of my parasitic =
loads are on power strips. The only thing I haven't done is replace my old =
refridgerator and laundry machines but I hang-dry a lot of clothes, especia=
lly the heavy stuff.

For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It had =
me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I rank a =
3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the equivilent of 2.5=
cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800 kWh a month dependin=
g on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't really take into accou=
nt that I'm powering an automobile that I drive frequently, am I overreacti=
ng or am I still really inefficient? I'm trying to figure out if I'm really=
wasteful in the home, or if I'm greatly underestimating the impact that ch=
arging the car has on my bill. I'm going to buy a Kill-A-Watt but I'd like =
to hear from some of you. All you NON solar panel powered people, with a ho=
me of 4 occupants or more who are driving an EV, please post your experienc=
es.

Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this ques=
tion and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I will not be
surprised if adding an EV triples my usage -- they can easily take more than
an efficient house if you use it all the time. But... its still cheaper
than gas for the fuel costs.

and, put the kill-o-watt on the old fridge. You may be surprised how bad it
is. One of my friends just went from 1800kWh per year (for just the fridge)
to 400kWh per year when the second fridge in the garage died and he replaced
it.



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Guys,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For numbers... the "average" house in Colorado is 780kWh per month -- a bit
lower than some areas that use alot of A/C. I've seen alot of more
efficient ones that have done what you have, using around 300 to 400kWh per
month.

An EV, if you have to do a full recharge 5 days a week, could be expected to
use perhaps 600kWh per month or more (depending on alot of stuff, of course)

Z



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I will not be
> > surprised if adding an EV triples my usage -- they can easily take more t=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > I'm trying to figure out if I'm really wasteful in the home, or if I'm
> > greatly underestimating the impact that charging the car has on my
> > bill.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I will not be
> > surprised if adding an EV triples my usage -- they can easily take more than
> > an efficient house if you use it all the time.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A short 3 foot extension cord or power strip will make the Kill-a-Watt =

meter easier to use with some devices. If you want power logging =

capability, look at the Watts-Up or Watts-Up Pro meters.

Watch out for dehumidifiers set to run continuously. I had one that =

averaged 696 watts and another that averaged 319 watts; needless to say =

they are no longer set on continuous run.

How many EV miles do you drive per month? Most of the conversions that =

I read about use from 0.250 to 0.450 kwh/mile.


Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I will not be
> surprised if adding an EV triples my usage -- they can easily take more t=
han
> an efficient house if you use it all the time. But... its still cheaper
> than gas for the fuel costs.
>
> and, put the kill-o-watt on the old fridge. You may be surprised how bad=
it
> is. One of my friends just went from 1800kWh per year (for just the frid=
ge)
> to 400kWh per year when the second fridge in the garage died and he repla=
ced
> it.
>
>


> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Don't have an EV yet, but:

Definitely get a Kill-A-Watt. Really handy in figuring out the power =

hogs. You can go to the Energy Star site and compare your fridge against =

what is out there now. We had a 20 year old one that was one of the most =

efficient in it's day, but the new ones are incredibly more efficient.

- SteveS



> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > Guys,
> >
> > Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question abo=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Without having some idea how much energy your car uses, it's impossible to
say how you are doing with the rest of the house.

When I got my truck, my electric bill basically didn't change, but that's
because I switched to TOU and moved all of my high power activities
(laundry, cooking, etc.) into off peak hours.
With TOU my off peak power is only about 65% of the cost of normal
(non-TOU) power, and peak hours are only about 6 hours out of the day.

> Guys,
>
> Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question
> about what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.
>
> When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house
> in an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I
> dropped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER 16
> high efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system w/programmable
> thermostat, a computerized water heater that tracks your usage and only
> heats water during certain hours of the schedule that it learns from you.
> I've put nearly every light in the house on a motion sensitive switch (to
> counter forgetful users) and replaced nearly every bulb with CFL's. All
> of my parasitic loads are on power strips. The only thing I haven't done
> is replace my old refridgerator and laundry machines but I hang-dry a lot
> of clothes, especially the heavy stuff.
>
> For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It had
> me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I rank a
> 3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the equivilent of
> 2.5 cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800 kWh a month
> depending on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't really take
> into account that I'm powering an automobile that I drive frequently, am I
> overreacting or am I still really inefficient? I'm trying to figure out if
> I'm really wasteful in the home, or if I'm greatly underestimating the
> impact that charging the car has on my bill. I'm going to buy a
> Kill-A-Watt but I'd like to hear from some of you. All you NON solar panel
> powered people, with a home of 4 occupants or more who are driving an EV,
> please post your experiences.
>
> Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this
> question and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
> ________________________________
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join
> you on Windows Live=99 Messenger.
> https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=3DTXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, now that a person has done all the energy upgrades for there home, ther=
e =

is one thing that everybody forgets to do when building a house. Even some =

contractors and old school building do not take in account of the =

conductance of materials that causes heat lost.

When I built my first house and my first EV, I apply this science to the =

construction of both systems.

The results, is that my natural gas monthly gas bill is at the minimum base =

cost of $6.40 per month for 7 months out of the year and its peak to $45.00 =

a month in the middle of winter for heating 1600 sf to 75 F.

I also heat a 1000 sf garage to 70 F. with overhead radiant heating, runnin=
g =

all the power tools in the shop, the total electric cost goes to about =

$100.00 a month in the winter and drops to $60.00 in the summer.

To generate are electricity, it comes from the indirect solar exchange of =

the sun evaporation the water in the pacific ocean which drops down on the =

Rocky's, flow down by the force of gravity turning 6 generators and then =

again to 4 more set of six generators to power our city which is call the =

Electric City.

No A/C is require. A whole house ventilation air exchange system is use, =

where in the summer if the inside temperature goes above 72 degrees and the =

out side temperature is below that, then the air exchange comes on, which =

can drop the inside temperature into the 60 F. degrees, which runs only onc=
e =

in the early morning and in the late evening.

My battery temperature never goes below 65 F. even its in the minus F. =

range.

In constructing any material to maintain a low heat lost, it is best to =

maintain a very high percentage of a resistance area between outside and =

inside areas.

References for this type of design are listed in Building Engineering Desig=
n =

Handbooks you can get at the library or maybe down load. The section you =

want, is the Resistance of Materials where it list all the R-factors of =

materials and how to calculated the heat lost.

Example of one material which is a two by four (2x4) which a lot of homes =

went to a two by six (2x6). Still this is not enough resistance. A 2x6 is =

5.5 inch by 1.5 inch wood that has only 1 R-factor per inch.

This makes the 2x6's only 5.5 R-factor. This is decrease even more to 3.5 =

R-Factor by install a 1 inch nail into both sides of this stud.

To calculated the total R-factor of your structure and in your EV, you have =

to do several calculations of the different material use which one area for =

the solid material, the insulation area, the window area and the doors area.

To give you example of the insulation factor for my EV: The cargo bed wher=
e =

the battery box sets in, is insulated with 2 inches of Dow 2 inch blue foam =

which is 10-R Factor on the sides. The bottom is carve out 2 inch foam =

sheeting which is in some plates reduce to 1.25 inch.

The passenger compartment is also insulated with 2 inches of uphostry blue =

foam on the floor and 3/4 inch on the sides and two layers of 1/2 foam on =

the doors.

All this foam surface is then cover with a foam back carpet. The battery =

box is also cover with 2 inches of foam and also cover with a marine carpet=
. =

The hinge cover has a 1/4 inch vinyl top foam layers and a marine carpet.

There is a 4 inch dead air space between the battery box insulation and the =

cargo bed insulation which is calculated to be 4 R-factor for the air space=
, =

20 R for the foam and 5 R for the carpet.

I normally do not park this EV outside more than 2 hours any time its below =

0 F. or above 100 F. If its below 0 F. and if its clear day (is when we =

have these low -0 F. temperatures) I park the EV with the rear glass =

section over the battery compartment to the sun. The temperature in this =

compartment was about or over 80 F. when it was -30 F. on a clean day.

This is how the windows on my house is made. When the sun angle is from 0 =

to 30 degrees, which is in the early morning or nite in the summer and all =

day long in the winter, the Anderson Windows passes the heat through at thi=
s =

time. It deflects the heat when the sun angle is above 30 degrees.

Here is a mechanical engineering formula that is use for calculating the =

heat lost of material:


Btur's =3D SF x U x TD

SF =3D Square Feet of conductance area between the inside and
outside area.

U =3D Call the U factor which is deride from U =3D 1/R

R is the R-factor of the material

TD =3D Temperature Difference between the inside area you want to
heat and the ambient outside temperature.

We normally use 100 F. Temperature Difference in the North
and in the South which works good for Air Conditioning.

Btur's =3D Units of Heat. 1000 watts is equal to 3412 btus.

If you are losing about 34,120 btus per hour, then if you
are using electric heating, this will use about
34,120 btu / 3412 =3D 10 or 1000 watts x 10 =3D 10 kilowatts.

Here is some valves of materials:

Wood =3D 1 R factor per inch
Fiberglass insulation =3D 3.3 R per inch
1 pane of glass =3D 1 R or 1 U
2 panes of glass =3D .55 U
3 panes of glass =3D .33 U

1 foot of steel =3D 0.1 R
1 foot of concrete =3D 1 R

1 inch of rigid foam =3D 5 R


Roland






 My electric charging bill for the EV last month is $4.94 for about 49.4kw=
h =

for charging the EV seven times for 20 to 30 minutes to the maximum charge =

voltage only and one time for a finish equalization charge.




----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Richard Acuti" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:53 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock



Guys,

Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question about =

what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.

When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house in =

an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I =

dropped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER 16 =

high efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system w/programmable =

thermostat, a computerized water heater that tracks your usage and only =

heats water during certain hours of the schedule that it learns from you. =

I've put nearly every light in the house on a motion sensitive switch (to =

counter forgetful users) and replaced nearly every bulb with CFL's. All of =

my parasitic loads are on power strips. The only thing I haven't done is =

replace my old refridgerator and laundry machines but I hang-dry a lot of =

clothes, especially the heavy stuff.

For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It had =

me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I rank a =

3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the equivilent of 2.5 =

cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800 kWh a month depending =

on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't really take into account =

that I'm powering an automobile that I drive frequently, am I overreacting =

or am I still really inefficient? I'm trying to figure out if I'm really =

wasteful in the home, or if I'm greatly underestimating the impact that =

charging the car has on my bill. I'm going to buy a Kill-A-Watt but I'd lik=
e =

to hear from some of you. All you NON solar panel powered people, with a =

home of 4 occupants or more who are driving an EV, please post your =

experiences.

Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this =

question and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join yo=
u =

on Windows Live=99 Messenger.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=3DTXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't figured out how to pr=
operly calculate my kWh used when driving the car. I ordered a Kill a Watt =
today so I'll be able to tell you soon. My charger is a 110v device so the =
Kill a Watt will work. I'm not worried about checking my laundry dryer and =
electric range. =


I can tell you this: I drive the car at least 15 miles per day, 7 days a we=
ek. Often times, more. My house is 100% electric, no gas or oil heating. I =
understand what Roland's saying about building materials but I'm not going =
to gut the house. I will re-insulate the attic with something better though=
. The new windows are "low E" which was explained to me as the outter surfa=
ce reflecting heat in the summer to keep the house cool, and the inner surf=
ace reflecting heat within the house in the winter to keep the house warm.

Anyway, what I take away from this discussion is that the car probably uses=
much more than I thought. If the car is 30-50% of my bill, then I'm satisf=
ied that the house is efficient "enough". I'm a big fan of John in CA and =
PV arrays. I live in a "wind poor" region but there is enough solar to be h=
ad, even though it's less than optimal. I'm just waiting until I'm in my fi=
nal home before I drop the coin on a PV array. I can't justify doing it and=
 then leaving it behind a year or 3 later.

Unless..........I assume that removing such a system is a bad idea and that=
it's just better to sell it with the house?
_________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:22:00 +0100
From: "Evan Tuer" =

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8



> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I will not be
> > surprised if adding an EV triples my usage -- they can easily take more t=
> han
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Check out Hialeah meter company (google them) for refurbished electric
meters. Adding one to a 240volt EV charging socket should be less than $60.

Roland is right about insulation..... not sexy like PV or EV's.... but it
sure works nice when you use enough of it. And... incredibly hard to
retrofit on old houses sometimes...

Moving a PV system is not impossible, but not easy either. Imagine 20 to 50
panels each 3 x 5 feet -- that's a pretty big truckload. In most places
that have rebates for it, you are actually prohibited from moving it after
it's installed...because the utility/state/whoever gave the rebate gave it
to have it in their area... not somewhere else. Some places in CA have
found that homes with PV sell faster, and for higher prices than ones
without, so it actually might pay to do it even just to sell it.... but
that's also where they're getting a 6 year payback by cutting off the third
tier usage.

Z



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't figured out how to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland, great infor - but your spelling drives me nuts! Why do you drop all =

of your "ed" and "d"'s on the end of words???? Not to mention the =

misspellings - make your posts difficult to read.

Please use proper English.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock


Ok, now that a person has done all the energy upgrades for there home, there
is one thing that everybody forgets to do when building a house. Even some
contractors and old school building do not take in account of the
conductance of materials that causes heat lost.

When I built my first house and my first EV, I apply this science to the
construction of both systems.

The results, is that my natural gas monthly gas bill is at the minimum base
cost of $6.40 per month for 7 months out of the year and its peak to $45.00
a month in the middle of winter for heating 1600 sf to 75 F.

I also heat a 1000 sf garage to 70 F. with overhead radiant heating, running
all the power tools in the shop, the total electric cost goes to about
$100.00 a month in the winter and drops to $60.00 in the summer.

To generate are electricity, it comes from the indirect solar exchange of
the sun evaporation the water in the pacific ocean which drops down on the
Rocky's, flow down by the force of gravity turning 6 generators and then
again to 4 more set of six generators to power our city which is call the
Electric City.

No A/C is require. A whole house ventilation air exchange system is use,
where in the summer if the inside temperature goes above 72 degrees and the
out side temperature is below that, then the air exchange comes on, which
can drop the inside temperature into the 60 F. degrees, which runs only once
in the early morning and in the late evening.

My battery temperature never goes below 65 F. even its in the minus F.
range.

In constructing any material to maintain a low heat lost, it is best to
maintain a very high percentage of a resistance area between outside and
inside areas.

References for this type of design are listed in Building Engineering Design
Handbooks you can get at the library or maybe down load. The section you
want, is the Resistance of Materials where it list all the R-factors of
materials and how to calculated the heat lost.

Example of one material which is a two by four (2x4) which a lot of homes
went to a two by six (2x6). Still this is not enough resistance. A 2x6 is
5.5 inch by 1.5 inch wood that has only 1 R-factor per inch.

This makes the 2x6's only 5.5 R-factor. This is decrease even more to 3.5
R-Factor by install a 1 inch nail into both sides of this stud.

To calculated the total R-factor of your structure and in your EV, you have
to do several calculations of the different material use which one area for
the solid material, the insulation area, the window area and the doors area.

To give you example of the insulation factor for my EV: The cargo bed where
the battery box sets in, is insulated with 2 inches of Dow 2 inch blue foam
which is 10-R Factor on the sides. The bottom is carve out 2 inch foam
sheeting which is in some plates reduce to 1.25 inch.

The passenger compartment is also insulated with 2 inches of uphostry blue
foam on the floor and 3/4 inch on the sides and two layers of 1/2 foam on
the doors.

All this foam surface is then cover with a foam back carpet. The battery
box is also cover with 2 inches of foam and also cover with a marine carpet.
The hinge cover has a 1/4 inch vinyl top foam layers and a marine carpet.

There is a 4 inch dead air space between the battery box insulation and the
cargo bed insulation which is calculated to be 4 R-factor for the air space,
20 R for the foam and 5 R for the carpet.

I normally do not park this EV outside more than 2 hours any time its below
0 F. or above 100 F. If its below 0 F. and if its clear day (is when we
have these low -0 F. temperatures) I park the EV with the rear glass
section over the battery compartment to the sun. The temperature in this
compartment was about or over 80 F. when it was -30 F. on a clean day.

This is how the windows on my house is made. When the sun angle is from 0
to 30 degrees, which is in the early morning or nite in the summer and all
day long in the winter, the Anderson Windows passes the heat through at this
time. It deflects the heat when the sun angle is above 30 degrees.

Here is a mechanical engineering formula that is use for calculating the
heat lost of material:


Btur's =3D SF x U x TD

SF =3D Square Feet of conductance area between the inside and
outside area.

U =3D Call the U factor which is deride from U =3D 1/R

R is the R-factor of the material

TD =3D Temperature Difference between the inside area you want to
heat and the ambient outside temperature.

We normally use 100 F. Temperature Difference in the North
and in the South which works good for Air Conditioning.

Btur's =3D Units of Heat. 1000 watts is equal to 3412 btus.

If you are losing about 34,120 btus per hour, then if you
are using electric heating, this will use about
34,120 btu / 3412 =3D 10 or 1000 watts x 10 =3D 10 kilowatts.

Here is some valves of materials:

Wood =3D 1 R factor per inch
Fiberglass insulation =3D 3.3 R per inch
1 pane of glass =3D 1 R or 1 U
2 panes of glass =3D .55 U
3 panes of glass =3D .33 U

1 foot of steel =3D 0.1 R
1 foot of concrete =3D 1 R

1 inch of rigid foam =3D 5 R


Roland






My electric charging bill for the EV last month is $4.94 for about 49.4kwh
for charging the EV seven times for 20 to 30 minutes to the maximum charge
voltage only and one time for a finish equalization charge.




----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Richard Acuti" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:53 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock



Guys,

Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question about
what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.

When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house in
an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I
dropped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER 16
high efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system w/programmable
thermostat, a computerized water heater that tracks your usage and only
heats water during certain hours of the schedule that it learns from you.
I've put nearly every light in the house on a motion sensitive switch (to
counter forgetful users) and replaced nearly every bulb with CFL's. All of
my parasitic loads are on power strips. The only thing I haven't done is
replace my old refridgerator and laundry machines but I hang-dry a lot of
clothes, especially the heavy stuff.

For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It had
me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I rank a
3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the equivilent of 2.5
cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800 kWh a month depending
on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't really take into account
that I'm powering an automobile that I drive frequently, am I overreacting
or am I still really inefficient? I'm trying to figure out if I'm really
wasteful in the home, or if I'm greatly underestimating the impact that
charging the car has on my bill. I'm going to buy a Kill-A-Watt but I'd like
to hear from some of you. All you NON solar panel powered people, with a
home of 4 occupants or more who are driving an EV, please post your
experiences.

Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this
question and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you
on Windows Live=99 Messenger.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=3DTXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Spell check?

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of joe
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock

Roland, great infor - but your spelling drives me nuts! Why do you drop all 
of your "ed" and "d"'s on the end of words???? Not to mention the 
misspellings - make your posts difficult to read.

Please use proper English.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock


Ok, now that a person has done all the energy upgrades for there home, there
is one thing that everybody forgets to do when building a house. Even some
contractors and old school building do not take in account of the
conductance of materials that causes heat lost.

When I built my first house and my first EV, I apply this science to the
construction of both systems.

The results, is that my natural gas monthly gas bill is at the minimum base
cost of $6.40 per month for 7 months out of the year and its peak to $45.00
a month in the middle of winter for heating 1600 sf to 75 F.

I also heat a 1000 sf garage to 70 F. with overhead radiant heating, running
all the power tools in the shop, the total electric cost goes to about
$100.00 a month in the winter and drops to $60.00 in the summer.

To generate are electricity, it comes from the indirect solar exchange of
the sun evaporation the water in the pacific ocean which drops down on the
Rocky's, flow down by the force of gravity turning 6 generators and then
again to 4 more set of six generators to power our city which is call the
Electric City.

No A/C is require. A whole house ventilation air exchange system is use,
where in the summer if the inside temperature goes above 72 degrees and the
out side temperature is below that, then the air exchange comes on, which
can drop the inside temperature into the 60 F. degrees, which runs only once
in the early morning and in the late evening.

My battery temperature never goes below 65 F. even its in the minus F.
range.

In constructing any material to maintain a low heat lost, it is best to
maintain a very high percentage of a resistance area between outside and
inside areas.

References for this type of design are listed in Building Engineering Design
Handbooks you can get at the library or maybe down load. The section you
want, is the Resistance of Materials where it list all the R-factors of
materials and how to calculated the heat lost.

Example of one material which is a two by four (2x4) which a lot of homes
went to a two by six (2x6). Still this is not enough resistance. A 2x6 is
5.5 inch by 1.5 inch wood that has only 1 R-factor per inch.

This makes the 2x6's only 5.5 R-factor. This is decrease even more to 3.5
R-Factor by install a 1 inch nail into both sides of this stud.

To calculated the total R-factor of your structure and in your EV, you have
to do several calculations of the different material use which one area for
the solid material, the insulation area, the window area and the doors area.

To give you example of the insulation factor for my EV: The cargo bed where
the battery box sets in, is insulated with 2 inches of Dow 2 inch blue foam
which is 10-R Factor on the sides. The bottom is carve out 2 inch foam
sheeting which is in some plates reduce to 1.25 inch.

The passenger compartment is also insulated with 2 inches of uphostry blue
foam on the floor and 3/4 inch on the sides and two layers of 1/2 foam on
the doors.

All this foam surface is then cover with a foam back carpet. The battery
box is also cover with 2 inches of foam and also cover with a marine carpet.
The hinge cover has a 1/4 inch vinyl top foam layers and a marine carpet.

There is a 4 inch dead air space between the battery box insulation and the
cargo bed insulation which is calculated to be 4 R-factor for the air space,
20 R for the foam and 5 R for the carpet.

I normally do not park this EV outside more than 2 hours any time its below
0 F. or above 100 F. If its below 0 F. and if its clear day (is when we
have these low -0 F. temperatures) I park the EV with the rear glass
section over the battery compartment to the sun. The temperature in this
compartment was about or over 80 F. when it was -30 F. on a clean day.

This is how the windows on my house is made. When the sun angle is from 0
to 30 degrees, which is in the early morning or nite in the summer and all
day long in the winter, the Anderson Windows passes the heat through at this
time. It deflects the heat when the sun angle is above 30 degrees.

Here is a mechanical engineering formula that is use for calculating the
heat lost of material:


Btur's = SF x U x TD

SF = Square Feet of conductance area between the inside and
outside area.

U = Call the U factor which is deride from U = 1/R

R is the R-factor of the material

TD = Temperature Difference between the inside area you want to
heat and the ambient outside temperature.

We normally use 100 F. Temperature Difference in the North
and in the South which works good for Air Conditioning.

Btur's = Units of Heat. 1000 watts is equal to 3412 btus.

If you are losing about 34,120 btus per hour, then if you
are using electric heating, this will use about
34,120 btu / 3412 = 10 or 1000 watts x 10 = 10 kilowatts.

Here is some valves of materials:

Wood = 1 R factor per inch
Fiberglass insulation = 3.3 R per inch
1 pane of glass = 1 R or 1 U
2 panes of glass = .55 U
3 panes of glass = .33 U

1 foot of steel = 0.1 R
1 foot of concrete = 1 R

1 inch of rigid foam = 5 R


Roland






My electric charging bill for the EV last month is $4.94 for about 49.4kwh
for charging the EV seven times for 20 to 30 minutes to the maximum charge
voltage only and one time for a finish equalization charge.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Acuti" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:53 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock



Guys,

Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question about
what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.

When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house in
an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I
dropped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER 16
high efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system w/programmable
thermostat, a computerized water heater that tracks your usage and only
heats water during certain hours of the schedule that it learns from you.
I've put nearly every light in the house on a motion sensitive switch (to
counter forgetful users) and replaced nearly every bulb with CFL's. All of
my parasitic loads are on power strips. The only thing I haven't done is
replace my old refridgerator and laundry machines but I hang-dry a lot of
clothes, especially the heavy stuff.

For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It had
me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I rank a
3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the equivilent of 2.5
cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800 kWh a month depending
on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't really take into account
that I'm powering an automobile that I drive frequently, am I overreacting
or am I still really inefficient? I'm trying to figure out if I'm really
wasteful in the home, or if I'm greatly underestimating the impact that
charging the car has on my bill. I'm going to buy a Kill-A-Watt but I'd like
to hear from some of you. All you NON solar panel powered people, with a
home of 4 occupants or more who are driving an EV, please post your
experiences.

Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this
question and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Jun 2008 at 15:42, Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> > Unless..........I assume that removing such a system is a bad idea and
> > that it's just better to sell it with the house?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Kill a watt I purchased only would handle 15 amps on a 120v line
and that for a very short time. I bought a KWH meter on Ebay. I was
surprised to find I was using 1/2 a KWH/mile. My Honda Del Sol just
got 47.5mpg on a 300 mi trip. With electricity running $.20/kwh, the
fuel cost per mile is lower on the Honda- with gas at $4/gallon.



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't figured out how to =
> properly calculate my kWh used when driving the car. I ordered a Kill a Wat=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Richard and All,

It depends on which EV you are driving too.
I never was able to tell a difference in my electric bill
when I was driving the Ewoody full time. Of course it being
1000lbs and getting under 100wthrs/mile average helped.
Though my also all electric very small home
only uses $22-$45 month at $.11kwhr so one would think it
would show up.
You might want to change you fridge to 2
top loading freezers, one used as a refrigerator, one for a
freezer is low cost both buying and running, about 2-3x's as
eff depending on how much it is opened.
A whole house fan or cross ventilation so
in summer, cool at night, close up holding cool through the
day and in the heat of the day, close over night in winter
helps a lot.
Another is drive slower. Your VW takes too
much power over 50 mph. It probably doubles every 12mph
above 35mph. Do you have LLR tires? Syn lube in trans?
Switch to something more aero like a
Jamaican GT or other kitcar, MR2, ect.
Thanks for the S10 data everyone onlist an
off. It showed me it probably not the way to go. Now just
have to find something else that's better suited. Finding
light gliders that can hold batteries and rear drive is not
easy.

Jerry Dycus


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Richard Acuti <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:42:25 -0400

>I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't
>figured out how to properly calculate my kWh used when
>driving the car. I ordered a Kill a Watt today so I'll be
>able to tell you soon. My charger is a 110v device so the
>Kill a Watt will work. I'm not worried about checking my
>laundry dryer and electric range. =

>
>I can tell you this: I drive the car at least 15 miles per
>day, 7 days a week. Often times, more. My house is 100%
>electric, no gas or oil heating. I understand what Roland's
>saying about building materials but I'm not going to gut
>the house. I will re-insulate the attic with something
>better though. The new windows are "low E" which was
>explained to me as the outter surface reflecting heat in
>the summer to keep the house cool, and the inner surface
>reflecting heat within the house in the winter to keep the
>house warm.
>
>Anyway, what I take away from this discussion is that the
>car probably uses much more than I thought. If the car is
>30-50% of my bill, then I'm satisfied that the house is
>efficient "enough". I'm a big fan of John in CA and PV
>arrays. I live in a "wind poor" region but there is enough
>solar to be had, even though it's less than optimal. I'm
>just waiting until I'm in my final home before I drop the
>coin on a PV array. I can't justify doing it and then
>leaving it behind a year or 3 later.
>
>Unless..........I assume that removing such a system is a
>bad idea and that it's just better to sell it with the
>house? _________________________________
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:22:00 +0100
>From: "Evan Tuer" =

>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

>Message-ID:
>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8
>
>


> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >> Do you know how many kWh per month your car is taking? I
> >> will not be surprised if adding an EV triples my usage --
> >> they can easily take more than an efficient house if you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:30:28 -0400, "storm connors" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >The Kill a watt I purchased only would handle 15 amps on a 120v line
> >and that for a very short time. I bought a KWH meter on Ebay. I was
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My EV uses about $15/month in electricity - easy to tell 'cuz my shop has 
a separate meter...

I typically drive about 5,000 miles/year (15 miles/day, 5 days/week plus 
errands on weekends). Average charge uses 4-5KWHr.

OTOH, my house used 1,308KWHr last month. Typical daily usage is 
25-80KWHr/day depending on the season. I won't go into that rant, but an 
old house with 2x4 walls isn't very efficient 

-Adrian

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't figured out how to properly calculate my kWh used when driving the car. I ordered a Kill a Watt today so I'll be able to tell you soon. My charger is a 110v device so the Kill a Watt will work. I'm not worried about checking my laundry dryer and electric range.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Luckily for me, "juice" is only .10 cents/kwh here so I'm doing a little be=
tter than you.

Jerry's right of course about several things. My car is what it is, and I c=
an't switch to a better one right now. My tires are pretty good on rolling =
resistance. I've tried a couple different types and my Khumo's at 50 psi ro=
ll the easiest. I do want to put some syn-lube in the slushbox. I can feel =
the extra drag in the winter time.

My new commute to the MARC train is only 15 miles, round trip at 40 mph or =
less so it's pretty gentle. I've even managed to cut out nearly all of the =
traffic lights so I don't waste energy stopping and going. Of course, I wok=
e up late this morning and ended up hauling ass down to the Metro Station i=
nstead, 30 miles round trip and 60 mph. Grrr.. I know how to work the =
hills now so I don't draw more than 130 battery amps and only for a few sec=
onds.

I checked my electrolyte this weekend. All clear...no bits and pieces and n=
o "cloudy" fluid either. I think I'll be adding water soon though. 1500 mil=
es and counting...
_________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:30:28 -0400
From: "storm connors" =

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" =

Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DWINDOWS-1252

The Kill a watt I purchased only would handle 15 amps on a 120v line
and that for a very short time. I bought a KWH meter on Ebay. I was
surprised to find I was using 1/2 a KWH/mile. My Honda Del Sol just
got 47.5mpg on a 300 mi trip. With electricity running $.20/kwh, the
fuel cost per mile is lower on the Honda- with gas at $4/gallon.
________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey John,

Thanks for the rational and helpful explanation. You hit my schedule right on the head. Using your numbers, the car is 1/2 to 1/3 of my bill depending on when I'm running the heat or AC. 

Lol...I'm so stingy that I try to grill as many of my meals during the summer to avoid running the oven and heating up the house.
_________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:13:37 -0400
From: Neon John 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



> Richard Acuti wrote:
> 
> >
> >I appreciate everyone's comments. I realize I haven't figured out how to properly calculate my kWh used when driving the car. I ordered a Kill a Watt today so I'll be able to tell you soon. My charger is a 110v device so the Kill a Watt will work. I'm not worried about checking my laundry dryer and electric range.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmm......

Over the past 12 months, I averaged 3712kwh per month at a cost of $490/mo.

But, the wifes dog grooming shop is included in that..I guess I should
get a couple whr meters....

Energy Star rated me a 0 and 6.4 cars.

My EV is just an Elek-Trak. Can't wait to get the Squareback going. ;-)


Stay Charged!
Hump



>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Richard Acuti
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:54 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Energy Audit shock
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Sorry to keep clogging up the list but I have a concern or a question
> about what my EV is doing to me, consumption-wise.
>
> When I first got into EV's, I put a lot of energy upgrades into my house
> in an attempt to offset the extra electrical load of charging the car. I
> dropped some serious coin on triple-pane, Argon filled windows, a SEER
> 16 high efficiency, multi-stage heating and cooling system
> w/programmable thermostat, a computerized water heater that tracks your
> usage and only heats water during certain hours of the schedule that it
> learns from you. I've put nearly every light in the house on a motion
> sensitive switch (to counter forgetful users) and replaced nearly every
> bulb with CFL's. All of my parasitic loads are on power strips. The
> only thing I haven't done is replace my old refridgerator and laundry
> machines but I hang-dry a lot of clothes, especially the heavy stuff.
>
> For fun, I ran the on-line energy audit on the Energy Star website. It
> had me plug in my last 12 months' kW hours and dollar amount. It said I
> rank a 3.4 out of 10 and that basically I suck!! My house is the
> equivilent of 2.5 cars on the road! I run anywhere from 900 kWh - 1800
> kWh a month depending on how hot or cold it is. Since this website can't
> really take into account that I'm powering an automobile that I drive
> frequently, am I overreacting or am I still really inefficient? I'm
> trying to figure out if I'm really wasteful in the home, or if I'm
> greatly underestimating the impact that charging the car has on my bill.
> I'm going to buy a Kill-A-Watt but I'd like to hear from some of you.
> All you NON solar panel powered people, with a home of 4 occupants or
> more who are driving an EV, please post your experiences.
>
> Dave, I realize this is semi-OT but a lot of EV would-be's ask me this
> question and I certainly wouldn't want to lie or mis inform anyone.
> ________________________________
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
> http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> you on Windows Live(tm) Messenger.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I got an 8.4 out of 10. Not too bad. Average elec bill is about $175
for a 3110 sqft house.

LowE double pane argon windows are next, we currently have 35 year old
aluminum single panes.

We do set our A/C a bit higher than most at 78=BAF downstairs and 80=BAF
upstairs (ceiling fans in nearly every room, too). We also almost
never run the heater in the winter either.

Brian in Hot, Hot Houston (98=BAF yesterday)





> Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hmmm......
> >
> > Over the past 12 months, I averaged 3712kwh per month at a cost of $490/m=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:26:37 -0500, "Brian Pikkula" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >I got an 8.4 out of 10. Not too bad. Average elec bill is about $175
> >for a 3110 sqft house.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the insider info on gas filled glass. Who woulda known? Not the
salesman!

Note that Brian lives in Arizona (IIRC). There is NO humidity in the desert
(I live in Idaho.. no humidity here either). I've visited the east side of
the continent, and the humidity sucks the life out of me! I can understand
needing a nice cold house there!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555



> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > So far, I've yet to test a window over a year or so old that contained
> > anything but air. The windows are not and cannot be hermetically sealed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nope, I'm in Houston (we've gotten 3 inches of rain in the last 3
days) (but I did grow up in Helena, MT). It's always high humidity
here, even in a semi-drought.

We do have all the fans on and when I get home, I change into a tshirt
and shorts. Our bed is directly under the ceiling fan on high and I
usually just have a thin sheet for covering. We could have it colder,
but I hate spending my money when I don't have to.

NJ, thanks for the tip on the gas fillers.

Brian





> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Thanks for the insider info on gas filled glass. Who woulda known? Not the
> > salesman!
> >
> ...


----------

