# Help a 17 year old high school student build his dream car



## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

It might be a good start to look at currently available tech and see if your requirements are reachable within your budget. Without a budget or even a ballpark number, it will be tough to get you there. Also there's a lot of good reading in the wiki


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

browncamaroz28 said:


> It might be a good start to look at currently available tech and see if your requirements are reachable within your budget. Without a budget or even a ballpark number, it will be tough to get you there. Also there's a lot of good reading in the wiki


Well, in total I would like the conversion cost to be somewhere below $10,000 Canadian. 

I was looking at the Warp 9 and Manzanita Micro Zilla Controllers, as well as 4 x (3kWh Lithium Ion 18650) packs. I do not know if that is a efficient/powerful setup for the intentions I had for my system though.


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Hi, might be tight on that budget using 18650 cells as you mentioned as I im assuming you overlooked the 150Amp peak discharge on those packs, I know I previously did to. I am not familiar with Volvo model but I have a feeling this car is not light, might be easier accomplished on a lighter car.


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

DreamMachine said:


> Well, in total I would like the conversion cost to be somewhere below $10,000 Canadian.
> 
> I was looking at the Warp 9 and Manzanita Micro Zilla Controllers, as well as 4 x (3kWh Lithium Ion 18650) packs. I do not know if that is a efficient/powerful setup for the intentions I had for my system though.


In my experience, when you set low budget, you will run out of money very quickly... Unless you get 2nd hand motor + Charger.
I believe you will need more than 3kw of the battery to get the full use of Warp 9. 

I think the start would be to take a look at http://www.evalbum.com/ and find a similar goal to your requirement. 

- Rui


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I know that 12 kwh isn't going to get you anything close to 120 miles in a car that size and having the aerodynamics of a particularly shapely brick.

Can you get used Nissan Leaf packs up there? You'll probably need two for that kind of range. They'll also put out some pretty hefty amperage.


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

samwichse said:


> I know that 12 kwh isn't going to get you anything close to 120 miles in a car that size and having the aerodynamics of a particularly shapely brick.
> 
> Can you get used Nissan Leaf packs up there? You'll probably need two for that kind of range. They'll also put out some pretty hefty amperage.


What does a leaf pack weigh? I'm sure it's not terribly light.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It is around 400 lbs for ~24 kWh (4.15Vx2 per cell x 48 cells X 60 Ah). It is just over 8 lbs per cell I believe.

I'm not sure how much the car will weigh when completed, but let's assume 3,000 lbs. It would probably work out to 300 Wh per mile, so that is 80 miles of range on a best day, and only doing it a few times before the battery dies from overuse. If you doubled it to 48 kWh, it would be able to get 120 miles when the weather is above freezing and there aren't too many mountains.

Figuring out where to put 48 kWh of batteries isn't crazy in a Volvo, but it will take some effort. It would be 800 lbs+ of a large heavy brick on the shocks. Not that I should talk because I am putting 500 lbs of batteries over the truckbed of my conversion.


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

Caps18 said:


> It is around 400 lbs for ~24 kWh (4.15Vx2 per cell x 48 cells X 60 Ah). It is just over 8 lbs per cell I believe.
> 
> I'm not sure how much the car will weigh when completed, but let's assume 3,000 lbs. It would probably work out to 300 Wh per mile, so that is 80 miles of range on a best day, and only doing it a few times before the battery dies from overuse. If you doubled it to 48 kWh, it would be able to get 120 miles when the weather is above freezing and there aren't too many mountains.
> 
> Figuring out where to put 48 kWh of batteries isn't crazy in a Volvo, but it will take some effort. It would be 800 lbs+ of a large heavy brick on the shocks. Not that I should talk because I am putting 500 lbs of batteries over the truckbed of my conversion.


First, thank you all for the wonderful suggestions! 

Second: Yes, that's a little much weight for my car. What about putting 18kw in? I can always add more. I just prefer the modularity of the Telsa battery packs I was looking at. I do not really want to take up a lot of trunk space as I still use the "wagon effect" of the car on a very frequent basis.


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Seems that it always comes back to the conclusion of performance vs range vs price. Energy density is nice one 18650 but new, price is not. Price is great on a used leaf pack but it doesn't match the 18650 energy density. Basically you have 3 variables of which you can only "optimize" 2. 



Caps18 said:


> It is around 400 lbs for ~24 kWh (4.15Vx2 per cell x 48 cells X 60 Ah). It is just over 8 lbs per cell I believe.
> 
> I'm not sure how much the car will weigh when completed, but let's assume 3,000 lbs. It would probably work out to 300 Wh per mile, so that is 80 miles of range on a best day, and only doing it a few times before the battery dies from overuse. If you doubled it to 48 kWh, it would be able to get 120 miles when the weather is above freezing and there aren't too many mountains.
> 
> Figuring out where to put 48 kWh of batteries isn't crazy in a Volvo, but it will take some effort. It would be 800 lbs+ of a large heavy brick on the shocks. Not that I should talk because I am putting 500 lbs of batteries over the truckbed of my conversion.


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

browncamaroz28 said:


> Seems that it always comes back to the conclusion of performance vs range vs price. Energy density is nice one 18650 but new, price is not. Price is great on a used leaf pack but it doesn't match the 18650 energy density. Basically you have 3 variables of which you can only "optimize" 2.


Right. Well, if I did (theoretically) get a Warp 9 and Micro Zilla Controller (as I think those seem to fit the 'performance' aspect) , and skimped on some of the range potential, is in not possible to add more more batteries later on when my budget is more expansive?


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

DreamMachine said:


> Right. Well, if I did (theoretically) get a Warp 9 and Micro Zilla Controller (as I think those seem to fit the 'performance' aspect) , and skimped on some of the range potential, is in not possible to add more more batteries later on when my budget is more expansive?


I'm not sure about the batteries, someone else can probably talk to cell use / life and adding more. As far as the other stuff you could pick up some used parts and probably be close to budget. I have a used Evnetics Soliton Jr and ADC 9" for sale if interested


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Maybe the more knowledgeable guys can come in on this one but I requested price for Emrax motor and they are really interesting for the size/weight/simplicity (by the look of it). As for the 18650, you can get Samsung 25r 2500mah (8C cont - 14C peak) cells for around 3$, I already ordered a small batch and tested well.


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

Johnny5 said:


> Maybe the more knowledgeable guys can come in on this one but I requested price for Emrax motor and they are really interesting for the size/weight/simplicity (by the look of it). As for the 18650, you can get Samsung 25r 2500mah (8C cont - 14C peak) cells for around 3$, I already ordered a small batch and tested well.


Based on my lack of knowledge of simply wiring the setups, I would rather buy prebuilt packs. I do not want to create more opportunity for failure in an already high risk setup.


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

DreamMachine said:


> Based on my lack of knowledge of simply wiring the setups, I would rather buy prebuilt packs. I do not want to create more opportunity for failure in an already high risk setup.


You might want to reconsider the Zilla for that same reason. It needs external contactors unlike the Soliton 1 or Jr which is more wiring. And not to put down the Zilla but the user manual and programming is pretty poor compared to the one from Evnetics from a usability standpoint.

http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/downloads/category/1-zilla


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

browncamaroz28 said:


> You might want to reconsider the Zilla for that same reason. It needs external contactors unlike the Soliton 1 or Jr which is more wiring. And not to put down the Zilla but the user manual and programming is pretty poor compared to the one from Evnetics from a usability standpoint.
> 
> http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf
> 
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/downloads/category/1-zilla


Yup, I have to agree with that. Well, looks like I'd save a couple bucks in the process anyway!


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

browncamaroz28 said:


> You might want to reconsider the Zilla for that same reason. It needs external contactors unlike the Soliton 1 or Jr which is more wiring. And not to put down the Zilla but the user manual and programming is pretty poor compared to the one from Evnetics from a usability standpoint.
> 
> http://www.evnetics.com/downloads/Soliton_Manual_1v4_rev2.pdf
> 
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/downloads/category/1-zilla


I thought Soliton is no longer available...


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

I think you are correct however there are plenty of good working used ones that come up on these boards. I have a Jr for sale right now 


Roderick said:


> I thought Soliton is no longer available...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Might be worth a trip to Vancouver Island to see Randy at CanEV- he might have some surplus or old stock he wants to unload to a worthy cause.


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

Moltenmetal said:


> Might be worth a trip to Vancouver Island to see Randy at CanEV- he might have some surplus or old stock he wants to unload to a worthy cause.


Alright! Well thanks for the advice!


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

Well, I managed to stumble upon a blog all about someone who converted a more modern Volvo S80 (2008). Now, if I wanted to keep ABS and air-conditioning and airbags and such, do I need to convince the ECU that the engine is still running, or can I somehow remove the ECU altogether?


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm just pondering the idea of the kW, as previously discussed, and I figured that if I put 4 or 5 Tesla Modules in the trunk that I would get around my 200km (give or take a bit) range. As I'm sure you've all seen Jehu Garcia managed to get his VW Bus to go 266 miles on 8 models (and an extra battery). 428km (266) is obviously WAY more that I need on the daily, so I figure that because my vehicle is heavier, but I don't need to go that far, so 12/16 kW would work out. Obviously this is my "lack of any actual knowledge of how this all works" though, so I am probably quite off in my basic calculations. Now, if I were not use the Tesla modules, what batteries would you guys suggest for ease of building/efficiency? 

As always, your guys help is truly appreciated!


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

He made great progress on it since I last watch the videos but I got curious since the math seem too good and he actually mentioned at the end that he assume he'd get 160 miles of real world driving as he recharged it along the way. 48kw total in his case.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dream

(1) power is in Kilowatts - power
(2) Energy is in Kilowatt Hours - that is 1 kilowatt of power for one hour

A Leaf battery pack is about 300Kg - 24 Kwhrs and can deliver about 100Kw of power

For 100 miles range you will need about 400 watthours/mile so 40Kwhrs - or two Leaf packs 
They seem to be available in the USA for about $3,000 each

The "standard" lithium batteries are CALB - they cost about $400/Kwhr - so a 40Kwhr pack would be about $16,000 

The "Tesla type" batteries are maybe 30% more so about $22,000


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Correct me if im wrong but I think these are the Telsa roadster batteries he is using. 
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=329&osCsid=n77kv9up56dri4dsl7gqr90t84


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

these modules are out of salved smart for two electrics. 

But great modules at the price point.

However on topic; cheapest batteries are salvaged from oem vehicle straight from the junkjard.

However, hooking everything up correctly you will need to do some research or seek assistance. Have you looked around if anyone near you has done a conversion?

If you look around, some guys are quite good at keeping spreadsheets of thier conversion cost. Keep in mind, the main components cost money but the small things will add up fast. The biggest money pit will be if you need to get work done by others, welding, fabrication ect.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Those modules are 3kwhr - you will need 17 of them to get your 100miles range at 80% draw -$16,830 + shipping


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Well picknpull is the major wreck yard chain up here, Im pretty sure they have one in Vancouver to but that being said I never noticed any electric car at the one in Edmonton. Thank you for the correction btw.


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## DreamMachine (Sep 28, 2015)

Yes those were the modules I was looking at. But I will look into the Leaf batteries. Has anyone actually used one in a project yet? Also, what size are the battery packs; I'm just wondering about the feasibility of actually fitting it in the Volvo. Also don't know how easy it is to get one of those shipped over the border...


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