# [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I say no to advanced batteries. I say no to battery swaps. Why not
> > use electricity directly to power our highways? These lines wouldn't
> > be needed in the city. A small battery pack would be all you would
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

sounds like it could be a good idea, for the very large cities. I very
rarely get on a highway. Some of you might say I live in a little town
but I can drive from one side to the other in an hour on 35MPH or
40MPH roads. I'd never see this electric highway. I need batteries
that can take me my 50 miles reliably everyday.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The government talks green, but doesn't put its (really our) money where it=
s mouth is.

How many gasoline/diesel cars does the government buy a year? The governmen=
t could guarantee it would buy x number of electric cars a year (or at leas=
t American made hybrids), creating a market. The government could offer tax=
breaks to companies with big fleets of cars for green cars. However, it is=
much easier to pass a law, and make it someone else's problem to try to pr=
ofitably sell electric cars. In other words, why is it more stick than carr=
ot?

Disclaimer: I don't necessarily personally agree with any part ofthe abo=
ve!


________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:42:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.



> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I say no to advanced batteries. I say no to battery swaps. Why not =
> 
> > use electricity directly to power our highways? These lines wouldn't
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just came across this and made me think.....thought you might as well.

Absolutely The Funniest Joke Ever !

. . . ON US =

Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the
establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration?
Anybody? Anything? No?
Didn't think so.
Bottom line . . we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an
agency the reason for which not one person who reads this can remember.
Ready? It was very simple, and at the time everybody thought it very
appropriate.

The Department of Energy was instituted 8-04-1977 TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE
ON FOREIGN OIL. HEY, PRETTY EFFICIENT, HUH?

AND NOW IT'S 2008, 31 YEARS LATER, AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY
DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR, THEY HAVE 16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES,
AND APPROXIMATELY 100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES AND LOOK AT THE JOB THEY HAVE
DONE!
=

THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY 'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'
Ah yes, good ole bureaucracy. And now we are going to turn the Banking
system over to them? God Help us. =

-- =

Graham M. Whittenberg
Morristown, TN

Sincerely,
Douglas A. Stansfield

[email protected]
Fax: 973-440-1619
Cell: 973-670-9208

Licenses NJ (1046359), NY (LB-1010062)
=

Securities offered through:
Fortune Financial Services, Inc.
1010 Third Avenue
New Brighton, PA 15066 =

724-846-2488
Member FINRA

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.

The government talks green, but doesn't put its (really our) money where its
mouth is.

How many gasoline/diesel cars does the government buy a year? The government
could guarantee it would buy x number of electric cars a year (or at least
American made hybrids), creating a market. The government could offer tax
breaks to companies with big fleets of cars for green cars. However, it is
much easier to pass a law, and make it someone else's problem to try to
profitably sell electric cars. In other words, why is it more stick than
carrot?

Disclaimer: I don't necessarily personally agree with any part ofthe abo=
ve!


________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:42:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.



> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I say no to advanced batteries. I say no to battery swaps. Why not =
> 
> > use electricity directly to power our highways? These lines wouldn't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the
> establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ...

Folks, IMO this is 100% political screed. Not only is it off topic for the 
EVDL, it's a shouting rant designed for emotional appeal, not to prompt 
thoughtful discussion. 

We've just gotten out of another political season, and none too soon. By 
now we should all be heartily sick of attempts to manipulate the public. For 
goodness sake don't forward rubbish like this to the list!

If you have comments, please don't respond on the list. Contact the 
original poster directly.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[Removed extra addressees, there's certainly no reason to have this kind of 
discussion filling a senator's email box]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:22 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.


> [Use electrical lines directly yo power the vehicle]
> How much would it cost to do this?

Astronomical numbers for installation and ongoing costs that make our 
national debt look like pocket change. Making a rough estimate each foot of 
electrical line costs $2 (I'm making this number up, if you have better 
numbers please tell me).

I couldn't find solid more recent information, so I'm going to go with 
minimums from early, early numbers.
The 1925 numbered highways system was for 75800 miles, and the national 
numbered hiways are said to represent about 1% of the nations highways, 
making for roughly 76 million miles of highway in the US. This is 
401,280,000,000 feet, or by my earlier estimate $802,560,000,000. This is 
just to purchase the first set of wires. Installation will be easily 10 
times this, the maintainance due to weathering won't matter very often 
because high purity recyclable materials are a prime candidate for theft, so 
I estimate that on average the entire system would have to be replaced due 
to theft within 10 years. This means easily $1 trillion a year just for the 
infrastructure, not counting the electricity. Already this is a horrible 
idea. By the time the towers and suspension systems to handle 8 lanes in 
each direction along with being stacked 6 flying overpasses high the system 
would collapse completely under its own weight.

>With the electronic sophistication we have today energy use could easily be 
>recorded. A monthly bill could be generated. This is all technically 
>feasible.

You've obviously never met my friend the hacker. Actually you have, every 
homemade EV is a hacked ICE vehicle. How many people in the US would run a 
second cable with an "alternative" supply system that didn't log? They'd 
only be saving 90% on their costs, of course the rest of us would have to 
pay. How many people would find the reset code? According to their cars they 
wouldn't drive. As such a significant number of cars on the road would in 
fact not be paying, raising the costs for everyone (ironically including 
themselves because it would be passed through in taxes).

> Tesla was talking about this in the beginning of the last century.

Actually, Tesla was investigating wireless distribution of electricity. 
Wireless would actually cost more.
Joe 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I say no to advanced batteries. I say no to battery swaps. Why not do what the New York Subway as done for a hundred years. Use electricity directly to power our highways. 
> These lines wouldn't be needed in the city. A small battery pack would be all you would need to get to the highway. How much would it cost to do this? The cost would be political. There would be stiff opposition from the oil producers & auto makers. But I say trains, urban railways & electric buses have been doing this for a long time. If we do build the "Electric Super Highway" cars could be made lighter and EVen more efficient than the electric car of today because of the lack of a large amount of batteries. Electric trains go 200 mph & carry no motive batteries that I know of. Cars don't need to go faster than 100 mph. With the electronic sophistication we have today energy use could easily be recorded. A monthly bill could be generated. This is all technically feasible. Why isn't anyone talking about this? Tesla was talking about this in the beginning of the last century. One only needs to review the actions of
> Rockefeller, Hearst, GM & Firestone to see why. Greed for money took us away from alcohol, steam & electric cars & brought us Prohibition of Hemp & Alcohol among other things. Henry Ford's wife drove electric at the turn of the last century. Henry Fords Model T ran on both alcohol & gasoline. I digress but the fuels of the past are now the fuels of the future. I think it is the delivery system that has to be changed. Why did it take so long to see the light. Lawrence Rhodes: Solar power & electric vehicle advocate.

I like the idea but the phrase "I say no to advanced batteries." caught me by surprise and got me thinking. 

First, I think we need something better than lead for this application, but what is so good about lead anyway?

I think the answer to that is the important part in the success of EV's they are a commodity and are recycled.

I don't know about the rest of you but I get a lot of emails about how things are gonna change (most recent that Al Gore meeting with Barack Oboma on "repowering america") and it occurs to me that it will never work unless NIMH or LiFePO4 or something becomes a commodity. SO the very very first thing that has to happen is the patents must be fixed. Luckily I heard the US government held back some rights on LiFePo4. So there is hope. 



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > We're like the wife, who is looking at the map, sees the error, and can
> > see several alternate
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wouldn't a catenary make passing difficult?
storm



> Dan Bentler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Overhead catenary makes a lot of sense.
> supply the cars which are then driven with AC motors using VFDs
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.


> Wouldn't a catenary make passing difficult?
> storm

Yeah! I brought that one up? Trying to re pole yur trolley poles at speed 
could be tricky? The North Shore Line did, conductor hanging between the 
cars to let the pole against the wire at 60 mph or better!All in a daze 
work, back then, they stuck to trolley poles til the end in '63!

Seeya

Bob

>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Dan Bentler 


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Overhead catenary makes a lot of sense.
> > supply the cars which are then driven with AC motors using VFDs
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The catenary-powered electric bus lines around Boston MA can change 
lanes without a problem. I don't think one bus could pass another bus 
though. This is solved with a small battery pack e.g. battery-AC hybrid.
-
Martin

storm connors wrote:
> Wouldn't a catenary make passing difficult?
> storm
> 
>


> Dan Bentler <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Overhead catenary makes a lot of sense.
> > supply the cars which are then driven with AC motors using VFDs
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are considering a single set of overhead wires then yes,
it will be difficult, just like overtaking on a busy 2-lane
country highway can be hairy.

But why limit to only a single set of wires?
Freeways typically have more than a single lane 
in each direction these days.

NOTE that with a small battery pack you are
free from the typical issues of a pure catenary system
where a loss of contact with the line immediately has
its consequences (no power) while a system with a
small battery pack allows some freedom from moving from 
the power source without losing driving power, as long
as the charge level does not go down too much, so it
needs to come back to the power source within a certain
distance, but that is needed anyway if you only wire up
major streets and freeways, as you need to be able to 
manouvre the residential streets and get home or to the
catenary-equipped streets for a recharge.

When switching lane, the overhead system should
automatically release the catenary over one lane and
re-attach to the catenary in the next lane.
This can typically be done when reaching the limit
of the "reach" of the overhead booms.

Multi-lane intersections will be a challenge though.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:38 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.

The catenary-powered electric bus lines around Boston MA can change
lanes without a problem. I don't think one bus could pass another bus
though. This is solved with a small battery pack e.g. battery-AC hybrid.
-
Martin



> storm connors wrote:
> > Wouldn't a catenary make passing difficult?
> > storm
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh c'mon, let's think slot cars...give me 220v rails below the car....

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.

If you are considering a single set of overhead wires then yes,
it will be difficult, just like overtaking on a busy 2-lane
country highway can be hairy.

But why limit to only a single set of wires?
Freeways typically have more than a single lane 
in each direction these days.

NOTE that with a small battery pack you are
free from the typical issues of a pure catenary system
where a loss of contact with the line immediately has
its consequences (no power) while a system with a
small battery pack allows some freedom from moving from 
the power source without losing driving power, as long
as the charge level does not go down too much, so it
needs to come back to the power source within a certain
distance, but that is needed anyway if you only wire up
major streets and freeways, as you need to be able to 
manouvre the residential streets and get home or to the
catenary-equipped streets for a recharge.

When switching lane, the overhead system should
automatically release the catenary over one lane and
re-attach to the catenary in the next lane.
This can typically be done when reaching the limit
of the "reach" of the overhead booms.

Multi-lane intersections will be a challenge though.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:38 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.

The catenary-powered electric bus lines around Boston MA can change
lanes without a problem. I don't think one bus could pass another bus
though. This is solved with a small battery pack e.g. battery-AC hybrid.
-
Martin



> storm connors wrote:
> > Wouldn't a catenary make passing difficult?
> > storm
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Myles Twete wrote:
> > Oh c'mon, let's think slot cars...give me 220v rails below the car....
> 
> It's always seemed to me that rails are the ideal solution. Steel wheels
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It's always seemed to me that rails are the ideal solution.
> > Steel wheels on steel rails have *really* low rolling resistance.
> > The vehicle doesn't need to be steered.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> > Lee, You and I are in the Bob Rice fan club!?
> > I have thought about what you describe -
> > even sometimes while waiting on a train or subway
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Imagine if you built this system as sort of a hybrid system for general
purpose vehicles. The vehicles would have a small battery pack capable of,
say, 10 miles and be solely driven by an electric motor(s). The induction
system would be installed only on major thoroughfares. While driving on the
thoroughfare, you would pick up power from the induction system, keep the
batteries charged, and run the motors. While changing lanes or drifting too
far from the "rails", you would momentarily run from battery power. While
driving on smaller streets, parking lots, your driveway, etc, you would be
on your own battery power. Maybe you could also charge at home, if needed.

This would allow such an infrastructure to be built on a relatively small
percentage of roads and yet handle perhaps 99% of all miles covered. Even
long freeway stretches!

I can only imagine - or maybe it's beyond my imagination - the current draw
on such a system. But, wouldn't it be sweet?

Peri Hartman

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVtransPortal
Sent: 19 December, 2008 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Superhighway.


Lawrence, you may find this new patented technology developed by the
University of Auckland in New Zealand of interest. I participated recently
in an industry meeting on this technology. It is a completely contactless
inductive power transfer system that has been successfully demonstrated to
be able to recharge an electric vehicle without needing to plug in. The
system could conceivably be embedded in the roadway eliminating the need to
replace batteries for distance driving. It has apparently been tested and is
free from EMI issues. There is no active charge to the roadway without the
receptor in the vehicle present. It apparently works with up to an 8 inch
gap. The University is presently working on ways to commercialize this
patented advanced technology for electric vehicle applications.

http://www.uniservices.co.nz/pageloader.aspx?page=3D1484d8d0d82
http://www.uniservices.co.nz/pageloader.aspx?page=3D755d8d0d82

Peter Oppewall
http://EVtransPortal.com




> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > =
> 
> > I sayno toadvanced batteries. I sayno tobattery swaps. =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I like the idea but the phrase "I say no to advanced batteries." caught me
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

aka "Damn the Battery - Full Speed Ahead!"



> patrick DonEgan <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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