# Are Trojan T105 worth the bucks



## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

I need to buy batteries. Are Trojan T105 worth the bucks

compared to major brands such a Interstate or Exide?

How do discount batteries from Costco or Sam's Club measure up?


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Put the money in Lithium Cells rather than Lead Acid. I have done both and Lithium is far better. It is money well spent if your serious about building an EV. If not then go with lead and if you decide you really like electric you can upgrade. So pay the piper now or later. Lead will get you lousy distances but if you only need like 20 miles or so then it may work. If you need more like 50 or 70 miles you WILL need lithium cells.
> 
> Pete
> 
> Trojan are good but I fear that they were better long ago. I am not sure if they are even better than the budget ones but if you do go with Lead Acid make sure you don't go with the marine type of deep cycle battery. They are not designed for EV's. Period.


Thanks for the reply. I run a 144 volt system and the 24 US Batteries I purchased lasted 8 months. I ran them pretty hard. My commute is 30 miles, 5 days a week. I paid $2000.00 for them. I wish I could afford Lithium but it is not in the budget. Just wondering what results
everyone else has had with different brands.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the reply. I run a 144 volt system and the 24 US Batteries I purchased lasted 1.5 years. I ran them pretty hard. My commute is 30 miles, 5 days a week. I paid $2000.00 for them. I wish I could afford Lithium but it is not in the budget. Just wondering what results
> everyone else has had with different brands.


Trojan and interstate run about $160 a piece. I priced them in January 2012. so 24 will be about $3,840 and any taxes you area might have.
Personally I would use a Sealed battery so can position them differently if I needed to. if not Lithium the optima.
For batteries like the T105 they have extra width between plates so they don't short different models and different brands may not have that.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I am guessing that everybody has cost reduced the internals. Exide still makes a decent battery, some here have had success with walmart, especially if you have a couple of stores in your town so you can return batteries for warranty. Up side is that the walmarts are 85.00 and Battery plus has some for 90. The jury is still out on longevity. Both weigh 10 lbs less than the same size trojans. My interstate guy said he could get me a really good deal until I pushed the issue on delivery and warranty. Everybody says their batteries are the best.

I am thinking you are at the fringe of what you can expect for capacity and are often taking the chemistry below a happy life expectancy. If you could get some, a couple of 72 v forklift batteries would be killer if they weren't so expensive and heavy. Know anybody that rebuilds, or works in a train yard?

Contrary to what Pete (Gottdi) thinks, price up front matters a lot even to the point of system exclusion. HOW does he expect you to operate while you save up this lithium money? I won't even mention Chinese lithium manufacturers and their delivery issues.


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> I am guessing that everybody has cost reduced the internals. Exide still makes a decent battery, some here have had success with walmart, especially if you have a couple of stores in your town so you can return batteries for warranty. Up side is that the walmarts are 85.00 and Battery plus has some for 90. The jury is still out on longevity. Both weigh 10 lbs less than the same size trojans. My interstate guy said he could get me a really good deal until I pushed the issue on delivery and warranty. Everybody says their batteries are the best.
> 
> I am thinking you are at the fringe of what you can expect for capacity and are often taking the chemistry below a happy life expectancy. If you could get some, a couple of 72 v forklift batteries would be killer if they weren't so expensive and heavy. Know anybody that rebuilds, or works in a train yard?
> 
> ...


 
Lithium has come down and maybe they will come down more in the future, where it appears lead acid is going up. One more set of lead and I'm hoping for lithium. I will investigate 72 volt forklift batteries $$$. We have an Exide plant very close to home.
Looks like warrantee return is a big plus for Walmart.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Looks like warrantee return is a big plus for Walmart.


I don't think Walmart even carries anything bigger than a 27DC marine (105 ah). You may be thinking Sam's club, they have 8v and 6v golf cart batteries.

As for the warranty, it's completely variable depending on your location and who is working. Some places replace them no questions asked (so I've heard), others will fully charge them then test with either a load tester or a starter tester. I found I had to drive mine down until they were at 10% of rated capacity before they would reliably fail the Sams test.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

The maxx29's I know of made by Us battery are group 31 or 34 I believe. Definitely 12v. Usually have to order them through Auto. Several members have bought them, and Yes they are cheap, BUT, apparently Wally world will honor a warranty at least once. Ziggy sounds like he has dealt with them on this. Didn't go the golf cart route as I was after something else. 

Not bad numbers for FLA, I am guessing anything less than say .35 an AH is going to be a deal, especially if you can visit the factory and get some Blemished, seconds, or a sponsorship. maybe even trade the old ones for a core?


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Has anyone checked out the batteries by Bad Dog Batteries in I believe Wabash Indiana. What I have heard is they have increased the life expectancy and amp hours by a considerable sum for their size.What I am getting from the golf cart guys is a lot longer time in service and more rounds of golf as well more drive time in the neighborhood.It might be worth looking into. I am going lithium on mine but I understand cost situation as my build is taking a lot longer then I thought. but it will be right or nothing else will work for what I want. I have used a lot of fiberglass body parts and a lot of aluminum for frame work, suspension components,and rear differential all aluminum except gears. But back to the original post. the cart guys here just rave about them, That is all I know.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> The maxx29's I know of made by Us battery are group 31 or 34 I believe. Definitely 12v. Usually have to order them through Auto. Several members have bought them, and Yes they are cheap, BUT, apparently Wally world will honor a warranty at least once.


The maxx29's were a group 29 battery (12V 125AH) Walmart stopped carrying them years ago, they also discontinued all free replacement warranties over a few months.

Sams continued to carry the 29DC, but has since switched to a 29HM (perhaps to discourage people from using it as a DC battery and killing it within the 1 yr free replacement period).

My initial pack was 29DCs, which I figured had to be the cheapest thing on the market even if they only lasted 18 months including replacing once under warranty. Using the warranty was far more difficult than I expected though, and prices have gone up over 10% in the last 18 months. I have a few 29HMs in my pack, but have mostly upgraded to GC8s.

At least where I'm at Sams can't even special order stocked batteries anymore, what's on the shelf is what you get. To get a full set of 15-24 batteries you would have to just get them when they have entire pallets in for golf season, or raid the stock of multiple stores.

*If at all possible, go with lithium.* It will probably cost about the same as a trojan pack anyway, and last 2-3 times longer. If you're desperately cheap, at least stick with GCs.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the reply. I run a 144 volt system and the 24 US Batteries I purchased lasted 1.5 years. I ran them pretty hard. My commute is 30 miles, 5 days a week. I paid $2000.00 for them. I wish I could afford Lithium but it is not in the budget. Just wondering what results
> everyone else has had with different brands.


In the past, I would have agreed with you about not being able to afford Lithium. But now it's real close to the tipping point with the emergence of gray market A123 prismatic pouch cells. The ones shown are a bit high. Endless Sphere is currently starting a group buy that's delivering these cells to the door for under 25 USD each. I'm waiting to see how the first buy goes and if it goes well, I'll probably join the second one.

So let's run the numbers. I'll use BJFreeman's $3840 for comparison. So we need 3 items: usable capacity, weight and cost (which we have already). T105s are 6V 225 Ah (20 Hr rate) batteries. The usable energy in an EV application due to Peukert and a limit of 80% DOD generally runs between 55 to 60% of the 20 Hr capacity. I'll use the 0.6 for this one. So the total capacity is:

144V * 225 Ah * 0.6 = 19.4 Kwh

Weight is 61 lbs/ battery for a total load of:

24 *61 = 1464 lbs.

Now let's start with apples to apples for a starter. The nominal voltage for the A123 cells is 3.2V and the nominal capacity is 19.6 Ah. That gives a total capacity of 62.7 Wh. Lithium should also not be run beyond 80% DOD with little Peukert effect (even at the 20C rate these cells can be driven). So 62.7 * 0.8 = 50.1 Wh. Let's simply round it down to 50. BTW this is just shy of a 1 lbs package. So actually the cells have some nice round numbers: $25 for 50 Wh (0.5 USD/Wh) at 1 lbs.

Now at first glance it still looks like it's out of reach in an apples to apples comparison. First number we need is how many cells to get 144V:

144V / 3.2V per cell = 45 cells.

So we need to buy in 45 cell batches. Cost:

45 cells * 25 USD/cell = $1125

So a bit more than $1000 a group. Capacity:

45 cells * 50 Wh/cell = 2250 Wh

Now there's the rub. Each cell has 1/16 the usable capacity of the T105. So you'd have to get 16 of them to make up the energy of battery at more than double the cost:

16 cells * 25USD/cell = $400

This is borne out in the matching Wh computation:

19440 Wh (original) / 2250 Wh (45 cells) = 8.6 groups

Round down to 8 groups @ 1125 USD/group = $9000

I know it looks like Lithium takes the loss here, but there's more. The three winners here are the fact the lithium is a lot lighter, the longevity and the fact that cells can be purchased modularly. This is where it gets competitive and is worth examining.

Weight is a no brainer. Even the 360 cell pack for $9000 is going to come in under 500 lbs (360 lbs for the cells + associated weight of boxes and connectors). So the pack has gone down in weight from nearly 1500 lbs to under 500 lbs. So that means that you really do not need the same total energy to push the vehicle the same distance. Depending on the curb weight it'll cut the number of 45 cell groups needed from 8 to 5, or maybe even 4, causing a significant cost reduction. At 30 miles in range, I'm almost certain that the reason you are lugging around 1500 lbs of lead in a 19 kWh pack is to get the required voltage and energy to lug around that 1500 extra pounds for 30 miles. Lighten the pack, lighten the load, lighten the cost.

The the longevity argument. You ran down your lead pack in 18 months. The Lithium will last well more than 5 years. Once you factor in the amortization costs, it's cheaper in the long run. It just cost more up front.

And this is where I think the modularity argument for the prismatic cells comes in. You can add cells in groups of 45 for 1125 USD each. That's cost effective enough that you can afford to expand the pack every year after the initial outlay.

So consider starting with 4 groups at $4500, which is only $700 more than BJFreeman's quote for the lead, Giving you 180 cells @ 9 KwH with a weight of about 250 lbs. That's half the capacity of the lead pack with a 85% reduction in pack weight. Then in a year buy a group or two more cells (and unfortunately rewire the pack because you need to parallel at the cell level first before stringing up the pack) for $1125 to $2250 more. 

And that's all the batteries you'll need for the next 5 years.

I think the cost and modularity makes it doable now. I certainly did not think that before.

ga2500ev


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## jmo[email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

ga2500ev said:


> In the past, I would have agreed with you about not being able to afford Lithium. But now it's real close to the tipping point with the emergence of gray market A123 prismatic pouch cells. The ones shown are a bit high. Endless Sphere is currently starting a group buy that's delivering these cells to the door for under 25 USD each. I'm waiting to see how the first buy goes and if it goes well, I'll probably join the second one.
> 
> So let's run the numbers. I'll use BJFreeman's $3840 for comparison. So we need 3 items: usable capacity, weight and cost (which we have already). T105s are 6V 225 Ah (20 Hr rate) batteries. The usable energy in an EV application due to Peukert and a limit of 80% DOD generally runs between 55 to 60% of the 20 Hr capacity. I'll use the 0.6 for this one. So the total capacity is:
> 
> ...


Can my charger 144v (Zivan NG3) be converted to work on these gray market A123 prismatic pouch?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Can my charger 144v (Zivan NG3) be converted to work on these gray market A123 prismatic pouch?


Try this discussion thread on the subject...

ga2500ev


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

gottdi said:


> One thing to remember about lithium vs lead.
> The discharge curve of lithium allows much better performance over the discharge curve than lead. At 50% discharge you are still blasting around with the lithium and lugging along with lead.
> 
> You have more usable capacity with lithium than with lead. So you don't have to match the capacity of lead to lithium.
> ...


Thank you for sharing your information. There might be a problem with your utube video Mock A123 Cells The audio is static. Please check. Maybe you can reload it?
Great information.


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Can my charger 144v (Zivan NG3) be converted to work on these gray market A123 prismatic pouch?


Where do you purchase wire and connectors to build a A123 prismatic pouch. battery pack. Any suppliers out there? Is there anything on utube that shows how to wire a pack? How do you balance the pack?


Thanks guys, James


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Ron at lithumaniacs is doing a sort of thread on how to build packs. Of course, it is Ron's way, but it works for a starting point with methodology critiques.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Where do you purchase wire and connectors to build a A123 prismatic pouch. battery pack. Any suppliers out there?


Everything so far seems to be one off designs. In all cases the idea is to clamp the tabs together using a metal plate of steel, aluminum, or copper. The differences seem to be whether or not you drill into the tabs, or only into the plate.



> Is there anything on utube that shows how to wire a pack?


Unsure. There are several detailed threads on this forum with pictures. There are also a couple of threads on Endless Sphere. 

Have you located a reliable source of cells? The ES USA group buy fell through it looks like.




> How do you balance the pack?


Same as any other lithium pack. Connect cells in parallel. Discharge to 2.5V. Rewire in final config. Charge until the first cell hits 3.65V.


> Thanks guys, James


ga2500ev


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