# [EVDL] data logger request



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Finding dataloggers on line is quite difficult, I've found... given that
they are usually sold to research and development labs or departments,
rather than on-line buyers -- so calling them and talking to a development
engineer there is sometimes all you can do -- and they expect you have a
large budget. I've done enough datalogging, in labs, to know that to use
the typical equipment they are used to using to monitor 40 batteries would
be $2000+ ... building your own from a simple USB enabled datalogger and a
multiplexer could probably be much cheaper, if you've got the skills.



> fred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'll be shifting from lead-acid to lithium iron phosphate in the near
> > future.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> fred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Is there an affordable product on the market that will connect to 40 LiFePO4
> > cells in a pack and monitor and record the voltages and current for the pack,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It sounds like what I see John Wayland using on the White Zombie at the dra=
g strip might fit the bill for you. You can get details and pricing on the=
Manzanita Micro website http://www.manzanitamicro.com. Here is what they =
have listed as their feature set.
KEY FEATURES=B7 Real time voltage monitoring of 4 to 8 lithium cells=B7 Rea=
l time temperature sensing of up to 8 external temp sensors=B7 Additional t=
emperature sensor included on BMS module=92s heat sink=B7 Small size is les=
s than 1 inch thick and 7 inches long by 2.4 inches wide=B7 Quick automatic=
cell equalization and balancing with high and low voltage on board indicat=
ors and outputs to the charger=B7 Two high speed real-time warning lines wh=
ich can be relay buffered for external use=B7 All BMS modules connect toget=
her using readily available RJ cable=B7 BMS easily connects to a PC using t=
he DT USB adapter (Dongle/Terminator sold separately)=B7 Free Windows based=
scanner and command software available for download atwww.manzanitamicro.c=
om in the download section under MK3 Reg Support.=B7 All commands are easil=
y entered and read in simple ASCII text=B7 Easy user adjustable min and max=
voltage parameters allow flexibility for various types of lithium cells fr=
om 1.75 to 5.5 volts per cell=B7 Each BMS board can bypass up to 2.5 amps p=
er cell equating to fast charging and equalization of unbalanced cells=B7 D=
ual RJ reg bus ports for easy connection to the charger or other BMS units =
in a simple daisy chain fashion=B7 Self regulating thermal protection and f=
eedback to Manzanita Micro Chargers=B7 Built-in active variable speed 12V D=
C fan control output on each BMS unit. The fan settings can be viewed and c=
hanged using the software found on our website=B7 Large heat spreader is to=
tally isolated from the cells and is already threaded for easy mounting to =
a larger heat sink.=B7 Each unit can dissipate up to 110 watts

> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:02:32 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] data logger request
> Is there an affordable product on the market that will connect to 40 LiFe=
PO4 =

> cells in a pack and monitor and record the voltages and current for the p=
ack, =

> cell-for-cell? =


=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Having the datalogging integrated into the BMS makes alot of sense... you've
already got the BMS looking at each cell, so why not use that data for more
than just running the BMS instead of having duplicate equipment of a
separate datalogger.

What BMS do you have?

Z



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 6:02 PM, fred <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zeke, unfortunately, I don't have those skills. I've read quite a few articles 
about Arduino, BasicStamp and the like and wish I had the skill set to build 
something based on these amazing developments in microcomputers.

Evan, I'll echo Zeke's question and ask what you have, since there was no 
reference in the message. Something you constructed yourself? Data storage on SD 
card would be better than constant streaming to a connected PC, allowing for 
bulk dumps at the end of a run or end of a charge sequence.

Damon, even though I plan to not have a BMS, after all the posts and references 
here, I could tolerate one if I can get the data I desire. I found the link on 
the site you've noted. Eleven hundred dollars for 40 cells, quite a bundle. The 
BMS seems excessive overall, though, again based on the information posted here 
about BMS and LiFePO4 packs.
------------------------------


From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>

Finding dataloggers on line is quite difficult, I've found... given that
they are usually sold to research and development labs or departments,
rather than on-line buyers -- so calling them and talking to a development
engineer there is sometimes all you can do -- and they expect you have a
large budget. I've done enough datalogging, in labs, to know that to use
the typical equipment they are used to using to monitor 40 batteries would
be $2000+ ... building your own from a simple USB enabled datalogger and a
multiplexer could probably be much cheaper, if you've got the skills.

From: Evan Tuer <[email protected]>

My BMS (also 40 cells by coincidence) spits out this data
continuously. To record it you just need to plug in a computer of
some sort, via serial data. I'm sure others are similar.

I don't actually bother though 

From: damon henry <[email protected]>


It sounds like what I see John Wayland using on the White Zombie at the drag 
strip might fit the bill for you. You can get details and pricing on the 
Manzanita Micro website http://www.manzanitamicro.com. Here is what they have 
listed as their feature set.
KEY FEATURES? Real time voltage monitoring of 4 to 8 lithium cells? Real time 
temperature sensing of up to 8 external temp sensors? Additional temperature 
sensor included on BMS module?s heat sink? Small size is less than 1 inch thick 
and 7 inches long by 2.4 inches wide? Quick automatic cell equalization and 
balancing with high and low voltage on board indicators and outputs to the 
charger? Two high speed real-time warning lines which can be relay buffered for 
external use? All BMS modules connect together using readily available RJ cable? 
BMS easily connects to a PC using the DT USB adapter (Dongle/Terminator sold 
separately)? Free Windows based scanner and command software available for 
download atwww.manzanitamicro.com in the download section under MK3 Reg 
Support.? All commands are easily entered and read in simple ASCII text? Easy 
user adjustable min and max voltage parameters allow flexibility for various 
types of lithium cells from 1.75 to 5.5 volts per cell? Each BM!
S board can bypass up to 2.5 amps per cell equating to fast charging and 
equalization of unbalanced cells? Dual RJ reg bus ports for easy connection to 
the charger or other BMS units in a simple daisy chain fashion? Self regulating 
thermal protection and feedback to Manzanita Micro Chargers? Built-in active 
variable speed 12V DC fan control output on each BMS unit. The fan settings can 
be viewed and changed using the software found on our website? Large heat 
spreader is totally isolated from the cells and is already threaded for easy 
mounting to a larger heat sink.? Each unit can dissipate up to 110 watts
From: Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>

Having the datalogging integrated into the BMS makes alot of sense... you've
already got the BMS looking at each cell, so why not use that data for more
than just running the BMS instead of having duplicate equipment of a
separate datalogger.

What BMS do you have?

**********************************

End of Compiled Messages
__________________________




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Fred,
The Elithion Lithiumate BMS will do this. I'm using it for my new EV, and I like it a lot. Affordable is relative...it is probably $1000-$1200. Depending on the cost of the batteries that is quite affordable.

corbin



> fred wrote:
> 
> > I'll be shifting from lead-acid to lithium iron phosphate in the near future.
> > I've had a PakTrakr on the pack since day one and it's been rather convenient to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I've been working on something for the past few months, but I haven't
said anything about it here on the EVDL because it might seem a silly way
to go. I've actually got a prototype system running on my workbench right
now that uses USB computer mice to send cell voltage info to a laptop. 
Each mouse monitors the voltage of 4 cells, using the three mouse buttons
and the scroll wheel. 

Basically, I removed the microswitches on each mouse button/wheel and
replaced them with optos. A PIC chip at each cell measures the voltage
every few seconds, then closes/opens the opto to simulate mouse clicks. A
Java program running on the PC displays reads to mouse clicks on the USB
ports to display real-time info and record the history.

My goal was that components would cost less than $1.00US per cell. Each
mouse cost 99 cents and measures four cells, so it was like buying a
pre-made circuit for 25 cents per cell. I'm trying to find a way to
increase it to 6 cells per mouse, using some of the chip's other
functionality, which would make it even cheaper per cell. Peripheral stuff
(capacitors, optos, resistors) adds up to about 60 cents per cell. 

Hey, I told you it was silly.

Bill 

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Zeke Yewdall [email protected]
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:10:19 -0700
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] data logger request


Finding dataloggers on line is quite difficult, I've found... given that
they are usually sold to research and development labs or departments,
rather than on-line buyers -- so calling them and talking to a development
engineer there is sometimes all you can do -- and they expect you have a
large budget. I've done enough datalogging, in labs, to know that to use
the typical equipment they are used to using to monitor 40 batteries would
be $2000+ ... building your own from a simple USB enabled datalogger and a
multiplexer could probably be much cheaper, if you've got the skills.



> fred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'll be shifting from lead-acid to lithium iron phosphate in the near
> > future.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Damon, even though I plan to not have a BMS, after all the posts and references 
> here, I could tolerate one if I can get the data I desire. I found the link on 
> the site you've noted. Eleven hundred dollars for 40 cells, quite a bundle. The 
> BMS seems excessive overall, though, again based on the information posted here 
> about BMS and LiFePO4 packs.
> ------------------------------

Ok, wasn't sure what your price point was. Seems like you could use your paktraker that you are already familiar with. It would not give you individual cell data, but you could wire one sensor across multiple cells and still get some pretty useful data.
damon 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Silly it may be, but if it works, it sounds like it's a pretty inventive way
to use cheap mass produced USB components to do it...

Z



> [email protected] <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Well, I've been working on something for the past few months, but I haven't
> > said anything about it here on the EVDL because it might seem a silly way
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cute solution. How about the control PCB out of a keyboard, you get
105buttons to play with for $5



> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well, I've been working on something for the past few months, but I haven't
> > said anything about it here on the EVDL because it might seem a silly way
> > to go. I've actually got a prototype system running on my workbench right
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are going to use the paktrakr with lithium cells,
make sure the first "12v" lead isn't connected to the actual pack.

The power for the module comes from the first battery, pulling it outta 
balance relative to the rest of the pack.

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] data logger request


>
>> Damon, even though I plan to not have a BMS, after all the posts and 
>> references
>> here, I could tolerate one if I can get the data I desire. I found the 
>> link on
>> the site you've noted. Eleven hundred dollars for 40 cells, quite a 
>> bundle. The
>> BMS seems excessive overall, though, again based on the information 
>> posted here
>> about BMS and LiFePO4 packs.
>> ------------------------------
>
> Ok, wasn't sure what your price point was. Seems like you could use your 
> paktraker that you are already familiar with. It would not give you 
> individual cell data, but you could wire one sensor across multiple cells 
> and still get some pretty useful data.
> damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> fred wrote:
> 
> > Is there an affordable product on the market that will connect to 40 LiFePO4
> > cells in a pack and monitor and record the voltages and current for the pack,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why don't you continue using the Paktrakr?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> fred wrote:
> 
> > I'll be shifting from lead-acid to lithium iron phosphate in the
> > near future.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

US$1100 for 40 cells <> 'affordable' in my book!

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> > It sounds like what I see John Wayland using on the White Zombie at =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wouldn't use the PakTrakr on LiFePO4 because it does not drain each
cell equally.



> Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why don't you continue using the Paktrakr?
> >
> > Regards, Martin Winlow
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > On Tue Martin wrote:
> > US$1100 for 40 cells <> 'affordable' in my book!
> 
> Martin
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Corbin, Since I don't want a BMS, the price is excessive, in my opinion. If I 
wanted a BMS, then I would consider the price to be appropriate.

Damon, see above. My price point is based on product versus perceived value. 
I'll pay through the nose to get exactly what I want, but I really don't want to 
pay for something that won't be used, as in a BMS.

Damon and Matt, I've been in touch with Ken from PakTrakr and he's told me that 
the LiFePO4 version will handle up to 40 cells, although I need only to read 20, 
but the worst of it is that it pulls from three cells out of eight. That's a 
recipe for unbalance, in my opinion. My experience with the PakTrakr is that the 
resolution or the accuracy is lacking, although Ken did say he's added an extra 
digit to the right of the decimal point. That's no good if there's no accuracy 
(reported often in other forums) and no good if the pack goes unbalanced on a 
regular basis. Other LiFePO4 pack users have reported very little trouble in 
keeping a balanced pack, and don't have mid-pack loading.

Doug, I'm probably going to destroy what little grey matter I have remaining, 
but your solution appears to be just what I want. I don't have the skills to 
modify computer mice to squeak voltage readings at me, although I find the 
concept intriguing and the execution impressive. It's that sort of thing that I 
very much enjoy to read about. Success with items at hand is far better than 
collecting esoteric materials and devices, although it appears that the Gangster 
stuff falls about in the middle. It's really what I was hoping to find and I've 
also discovered the forums for that platform.

I noted the video and audio module for the Gangster. I don't think that fits 
into my limited programming skills, but it makes me consider that Norm's display 
might be fed from a Gangster. I realize that the product is called the Gadget 
Gangster. I like the name!

What's an EVILbus? Is there a link available?

I'm hopeful that there are people in that forum as good as the people in this 
one!


------------------------------


From: corbin dunn <[email protected]>

Hi Fred,
The Elithion Lithiumate BMS will do this. I'm using it for my new EV, and I like 
it a lot. Affordable is relative...it is probably $1000-$1200. Depending on the 
cost of the batteries that is quite affordable.
------------------------------
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>

Well, I've been working on something for the past few months, but I haven't
said anything about it here on the EVDL because it might seem a silly way
to go. I've actually got a prototype system running on my workbench right
now that uses USB computer mice to send cell voltage info to a laptop. 
Each mouse monitors the voltage of 4 cells, using the three mouse buttons
and the scroll wheel. 

Basically, I removed the microswitches on each mouse button/wheel and
replaced them with optos. A PIC chip at each cell measures the voltage
every few seconds, then closes/opens the opto to simulate mouse clicks. A
Java program running on the PC displays reads to mouse clicks on the USB
ports to display real-time info and record the history.

My goal was that components would cost less than $1.00US per cell. Each
mouse cost 99 cents and measures four cells, so it was like buying a
pre-made circuit for 25 cents per cell. I'm trying to find a way to
increase it to 6 cells per mouse, using some of the chip's other
functionality, which would make it even cheaper per cell. Peripheral stuff
(capacitors, optos, resistors) adds up to about 60 cents per cell. 

Hey, I told you it was silly.

------------------------------
From: damon henry <[email protected]>

Ok, wasn't sure what your price point was. Seems like you could use your 
paktraker that you are already familiar with. It would not give you individual 
cell data, but you could wire one sensor across multiple cells and still get 
some pretty useful data.
------------------------------
From: "matt lacey" <[email protected]>

If you are going to use the paktrakr with lithium cells,
make sure the first "12v" lead isn't connected to the actual pack.

The power for the module comes from the first battery, pulling it outta 
balance relative to the rest of the pack.

------------------------------
From: Doug Weathers <[email protected]>

Last year I built a datalogger out of a Parallax Propeller chip and some sensors 
and a microSD card slot. It flew into space on a sounding rocket (peak 
sustained G-load of around 18 gravities), recording data on the microSD card all 
the way. I got it back in perfect condition.

Note that I didn't (and still don't) know what I was doing. I'm just an aging 
computer hobbyist, not an EE or even a CS grad.

The Propeller is quite easy to program (lots of code already available for 
download from the Propeller Object Exchange), and it's dead simple to wire up. 
We went from concept to sack of parts to delivery in six weeks.

However, if I had it to do over again I'd probably just start with one of these:

<http://gadgetgangster.com/find-a-project/56?projectnum=257>

Already has the microSD slot on it.

Then you could some of these to it:

<http://gadgetgangster.com/find-a-project?subcat=33>

Note the prototyping module with the RCA coax jacks on it. Looks like it would 
work nicely for an implementation of Lee Hart's EVILbus. Hmmm.

The Propeller chip has 32 I/O pins, all of which can be used as either analog or 
digital input or output, or as a serial port, or I2C or SPI buses, or audio or 
video, or whatever else you can come up with. There's no reason you couldn't 
have several of these all talking to a dashboard unit with a user interface.

The problem of sensing the battery voltages - safely - is left as an exercise 
for the readers. What's the minimum amount of easy-to-make hardware required at 
each cell? A current-limiting resistor?

end of compiled messages
**********************************




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> fred wrote:
> 
> > I don't have the skills to modify computer mice to squeak voltage
> readings =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Our current BMS does this, saving to SDcard with options for automatic
periodic uploading to the Internet via Wifi. We haven't really
focused on these features. Most people interested in buying our BMS
are interested in bare bones regulation, and not the telemetry
functions.

I am working on a generic version of our central controller for John
and the other racers that will record Zilla DAQ (or any other serial
stream) to SD. Target date to ship a few prototypes is late March.
Price should be pretty reasonable.

Mark



-- 
Mark Farver
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles
Austin, TX
Parts store now open: http://www.revoltevc.com/

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