# sepex field current contoller setting



## adzamtyre (Aug 4, 2012)

hi iam a newbee so if i get it wrong just tell me i wont be upset
i am upgrading my ev it has a sep ex field
i have a motor performce graph shows output at 37,5 volts 25 amp field current when purchasing controller they need a field current setting (kelly)
hse i want to use 120 volts at 120 i assume less amps best wishes richard


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm not a motor guy so maybe major or one of the other gurus can correct me if I'm wrong.

I had to replace my SepEx motor and went with a longer one. This is a D&D Motor Systems motor. The engineer gave me the max and min parameters for the field and a starting value for the min armature current. My controller, Sevcon PP745, then interprets the motor curve from these and a mid value I've found from playing around with the parameters.

Typically as the motor rpm increases the field current needs to be reduced to lower the back EMF of the motor to get more rpm for a given input voltage. This has the effect of also lowering the max torque of the motor. Furthermore, lowering the field current decreases the heat generated in the field.

If I were to guess, I wouldn't raise the field current above the 25A shown in the field map even though you are running a higher voltage.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

adzamtyre said:


> hi iam a newbee so if i get it wrong just tell me i wont be upset
> i am upgrading my ev it has a sep ex field
> i have a motor performce graph shows output at 37,5 volts 25 amp field current when purchasing controller they need a field current setting (kelly)
> hse i want to use 120 volts at 120 i assume less amps best wishes richard


Hi adza,

I have wondered if Kelly has a clue as to how to control a SepEx motor. Your post here supports my wonderment. If your motor has a 25 amp field, it is a 25 amp field regardless of armature voltage.

Now there is a big question as to the suitability (or survivability) of your 36V motor run at 120V. At 3 times the rated voltage what makes you think it will commutate successfully. And at that high of armature voltage, field weakening may not be an option due to excessive RPM, so what's the point of using SepEx? Regeneration? That will be tough at 120V, especially if you need to advance the brushes for motoring.

I'd suggest you give a lot of consideration before sending money to Kelly for your present plan. 

Regards,

major


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

adzamtyre said:


> hi iam a newbee so if i get it wrong just tell me i wont be upset
> i am upgrading my ev it has a sep ex field
> i have a motor performce graph shows output at 37,5 volts 25 amp field current when purchasing controller they need a field current setting (kelly)
> hse i want to use 120 volts at 120 i assume less amps best wishes richard


Hi you need to give a better description of your motor.

1) Rated voltage and current in armature winding
2) Rated voltage and current in field winding
3) Has the motor a shunt winding too (this excludes HSE and KDZ, you must then use KDC)
4) The actual resistance in the field winding (you can measure it, usually it is much higher than the in the armature

The usual usage of the SepEx-Motor in a vehicle is to start with full voltage/current in the field winding for maximum starting torque until vehicle is rolling on, then lower it to make the motor spin higher. 
The basic idea is to keep power constant after reaching base speed and save battery power (P ~Torque x Frequency)
The disantvantage is obvously that in the high speed region you do not have much torque. You can also use regen but I personally do not recommend it.
So what kind of motor/car do you have?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

gunnarhs said:


> You can also use regen but I personally do not recommend it.


Why not? Using it on my Gizmo has saved my brake pads where they last over 4 times what they used to, I can also stop much faster than without it so the safety of my rig is much improved.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I have several SepEx motors I'm considering using, so this is a great discussion. Gizmo, do you notice any excess arching, brush edge wear, or overheating when you use a lot of regen? I've heard that these can be big problems without inter-poles and/or brush shifting. I wonder if your Sevcon (and the Kelly?) controller addresses this problem electronically?

Have you had a chance to compare and contrast the way your vehicle drives (aside from the regen) to a Series motored vehicle?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

electro wrks said:


> Gizmo, do you notice any excess arching, brush edge wear, or overheating when you use a lot of regen? I've heard that these can be big problems without inter-poles and/or brush shifting. I wonder if your Sevcon (and the Kelly?) controller addresses this problem electronically?


I haven't noticed any but then again the first set of brushes were fried because the gearing was too high (3:1) and the motor was always overworked to the point that I had to have it reconditioned. I then went to a lower gearing (4.09:1) and that seemed to take care of it. Then I went to a LiFePO4 pack at 64V nominal and I could out drive the rating of the motor so I installed a cooling blower. That seemed to take care of that but then a comm bar lifted when I was doing some trouble shooting with the motor spinning at 5000-5500rpm (6000 rpm is the max safe rpm). I don't know if it was the early overheating of the motor that weakened the commutator or the driving at 50mph pushing 8500W through the motor for an hour or more that did it. The brushes had some pitting which, if I am reading the charts correctly, are from overload or normal running. I'm not sure which.

I just had the new longer motor out yesterday but I did not check the brush faces. The commutator looked really good with a little less patina than when the motor came from D&D Motor Works after being run on the bench but otherwise looked like a brand new motor even though it has over 2000 miles on it now.

Remember too, that at a lower voltage that arcing may be significantly lowered. In any case, even if regen tends to wear the brushes faster than not using it, I was spending more on brake pads than I was on electricity to recharge. 3000 miles was about all I could get out of a set and at $22 per pair I was spending almost $0.015/mi on brake pads and only $0.011/mi on electricity.



> Have you had a chance to compare and contrast the way your vehicle drives (aside from the regen) to a Series motored vehicle?


The best I can recall, after driving one yesterday with the same length motor as my original motor, is that off the line the series is a little better but once rolling a little the SepEx feels a little quicker. Climbing my hill the Series motor was 1-2mph faster at the slowest point but that could be due to me using my iPhone as a speedometer since the one in the rig I drove yesterday didn't work too accurately.

Remember, too, that I'm comparing a SepEx with a Sevcon PP745 controller (500A) to a Curtis 500A controller but it may be that the curtis has been turned down somewhat. It definitely had a very sluggish feel to it by comparison. Also remember that I've been driving with a LiFePO4 pack now since January 2010 so my comparison is a little suspect.

Major commented one time that he noticed the slight lag off the line until the motor was turning a bit. I don't notice this with the longer motor so it may very well be the programing in the controller.

Next time I have the cooling band off the motor I'll check the brushes to see what is up.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

gunnarhs said:


> The usual usage of the SepEx-Motor in a vehicle is to start with full voltage/current in the field winding for maximum starting torque until vehicle is rolling on, then lower it to make the motor spin higher.


SepEx motor (like Kostov 9'') have the same voltage on the field and armature?

120v for armature 
120v for field

15A for field on low torque
8A for the field on high torque

200A for armature on low torque
80A for the armature on high torque

Is it OK?


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

GizmoEV said:


> Why not? Using it on my Gizmo has saved my brake pads where they last over 4 times what they used to, I can also stop much faster than without it so the safety of my rig is much improved.


 Well in my case about 10-20 peaople are driving the Peugeot 106 (it is company car) .
The few who tested the Regen-featus found the braking behaviour strange, some thought the ABS-system was broken (the car has no ABS by the way). The regen did nothing for range, and heated up the battery pack a bit. So I turned it off. but this is just my personal view on regen, so if you are happy with it you use it of course


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

pedm said:


> SepEx motor (like Kostov 9'') have the same voltage on the field and armature?
> 
> 120v for armature
> 120v for field
> ...


Yes Kostov recommends the Kelly-controllers for their application. 
In this case you could use a 120V Sepex-controller wtih 0-30A field current (be sure then that field current is between 5-25A)
I would ask Kelly/Kostov if they recommend KDZ, KDC or HSE for this type of Motor. I would recommend a 600A version at least to be able to support 200A. (the 400A version limits continious current to 170A) 
If you intend to use voltage-control-mode for the field or you are having less than 5A in Field I would not use HSE. How are you going to change the field current (or are you keeping it constant?)


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## adzamtyre (Aug 4, 2012)

First i want to thank the members who have helped fill the gaps
with your help motor is not suitable for 3 times design voltage with regen
needs advaced timing to prevent armuture damage excess arcing (thanks major) then regen will be major problem as to generate brushes need to be retarded to prevent excess arcing 

sales specs on motor misrepresent its real posible performance (lack of)

leaves options of as regen i like and suits my use 

reduce pack voltage to fig where arcing is no problem
small lack of speed and lack of range less 180 a/h bat
bigger size battery 210 calb wrong shape for small car

120 volt sepex with interlaced field can have netral timing with regn

use 8 inch warp length is a problem but possible no regen but i owen it

go ac 35 with efficenly gain extra $

car madza 121 buble same floor pan as us model ford aspire but sedan with rounded shape prevosly nom 72 volt lead acid with 80 volt sevcon power pk controller falure heat sink not flat default regen upper voltage settng high ok for fork lift car slowing down for longer controller very close to max voltage often

I still havent qute got my head around sepex fields and rpm etc with voltage change will post motor graph tomorow for comment and keep reading theroy books on a steep learning curve from ic to ev
best wishes all richard


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> Well in my case about 10-20 peaople are driving the Peugeot 106 (it is company car) .
> The few who tested the Regen-featus found the braking behaviour strange, some thought the ABS-system was broken (the car has no ABS by the way). The regen did nothing for range, and heated up the battery pack a bit.


Hi gunnar,

What motor, what controller and what type of battery does this vehicle have?

Just curious,

major


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

gunnarhs said:


> Well in my case about 10-20 peaople are driving the Peugeot 106 (it is company car) .
> The few who tested the Regen-featus found the braking behaviour strange, some thought the ABS-system was broken (the car has no ABS by the way). The regen did nothing for range, and heated up the battery pack a bit. So I turned it off. but this is just my personal view on regen, so if you are happy with it you use it of course


Then the regen was setup incorrectly on that car. It doesn't mean regen is bad on all vehicles. I had to tune the regen for my rig. In my case I gain only 3-4% in range but that pales in comparison to the brake pad savings. Be careful about making blanket statements based on one case.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

adzamtyre said:


> I still havent qute got my head around sepex fields and rpm etc with voltage change will post motor graph tomorow for comment and keep reading theroy books on a steep learning curve from ic to ev
> best wishes all richard


Remember that just because you have a specific pack voltage that that voltage is what the motor sees. To maintain a given current with a given resistance the voltage has to be set at a specific value. V=I*R has to be satisfied.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

major said:


> Hi gunnar,
> 
> What motor, what controller and what type of battery does this vehicle have?
> 
> ...


The motor (original from electric Peugeot 106) is a 120V 11 KW Leroy-Somer SepEx (200A max, 20 KW max, field current 1->10A)
The original (damaged) Sagem controller was repaced by a Kelly Controller (KDC 120V, 400A ) 
The original NiCd Saft batteries were replaced by LiFePO4 (3,2V 200Ah)


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

GizmoEV said:


> Then the regen was setup incorrectly on that car. It doesn't mean regen is bad on all vehicles. I had to tune the regen for my rig. In my case I gain only 3-4% in range but that pales in comparison to the brake pad savings. Be careful about making blanket statements based on one case.


My statement about skipping regen is not only based on one case, I gave only one example of the Peugeot 106.
I never said regen was bad on all vehicles, but for a Kelly controller with a motor not matched and unclear ability of motor regarding regen it would be stupid to recommend to start having regen on. 
In my example of Peugeot I found the regen not totally bad for driving but other people hated it. Considering pros and cons, I decided to skip it, the cons were more. The same about another car with AC-drive...
But as I said in other comment, it is my personal opinion, you can have your opinion about it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> The original (damaged) Sagem controller was repaced by a Kelly Controller (KDC 120V, 400A )


O.K. A Kelly controller. Just another example confirming my opinion.


major said:


> I have wondered if Kelly has a clue as to how to control a SepEx motor.


 I had good luck using SepEx systems doing regen using Sevcon and Curtis controllers. And there are many others. But I have yet to see a user of a SepEx Kelly controller having full functionality and pleased with it.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

major said:


> O.K. A Kelly controller. Just another example confirming my opinion. I had good luck using SepEx systems doing regen using Sevcon and Curtis controllers. And there are many others. But I have yet to see a user of a SepEx Kelly controller having full functionality and pleased with it.


Well to be fair I think I was opposed with two problems
1) The Leroy-Somer Motor is not the best motor to do regen with and I was confronted with users who also hated regen on commercial AC (MIEV)
2) The motor is drawing more currrent than motor specs said and I made the mistake to use a 400A instead of a 600A version, limiting the continous current to 150A (170A according to specs of Kelly)
In general I must say that Kelly has fullfilled the expectations based on performance/price ratio and support. 
In my experience to achive good regen behaviour for all components, controller and motor must be matched


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Got it. It sounds like regen with a Kelly controller isn't too great, combine that with a motor which might not be up to the task and in your case, people who didn't like the way the MIEV was setup. The issue with the Kelly might be exacerbated by the 120V vs my 64V system, too.


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## greif (Jun 26, 2010)

Can the sepex be run with no load on it? Just for testing (with controller)


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

greif said:


> Can the sepex be run with no load on it? Just for testing (with controller)


I believe it can as long as the controller is a sepex controller that controls the field current. If the field current is fixed it would act somewhat like a permanent magnet motor but you would want to verify that with someone like major.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

greif said:


> Can the sepex be run with no load on it? Just for testing (with controller)


Yes. Make sure the controller is set for a reasonable minimum field current. And I assume you're not planning to use an excessive voltage compared to the motor rating.

How about giving us a photo and description


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## greif (Jun 26, 2010)

Hi
I converted a john Deere gator to electric and it all done, but I had to to chain drive and it noisy. I just want to take chain off and see how load the motor itself is. Only have about 2 hers running it so not sure if brushes are broken in yet,


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Most of the noise will be the chain and blades. If you have a hydrostatic transmission that could be a source of a lot of noise too.

That being said, you could turn the motor by hand, after the chain is removed, and listen to the brushes. You could also very gently apply throttle to turn it slowly so you don't over-rev it. What brand, model, size motor is it?


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## greif (Jun 26, 2010)

D&D ES-84C-70. 6.7in motor

http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/mot-es-84c-70.htm

Navitas TSX500-72V. http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/con-tsx500-72.htm

Turning by hand it turn easy with only a little noise.

I originally had 1.5 " wide heavy duty clogged belt but even with it very tight the teeth would jump the sprockets because the tires have great traction and would not spin and the motor has lots of tourqe so the belt skips, the belt was quieter but because it was tight to try to reduce skipping would still get whinny sound.

Will probably need to cover the chain to deflect the noise


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

greif said:


> Can the sepex be run with no load on it? Just for testing (with controller)


Yes, but be careful to be familiar with the motor when you do that.
Usually you set the field current to be half the rated field current of the Motor and you start applying low voltage to the armature.
If you do not have the exact motor data, then measure the resistance in the armature winding (often 1/2 Ohm to 1 Ohm) and the resistance in the field winding (usually more than 3 Ohm).
Then you can estimate the current by I = V/R.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

greif said:


> Can the sepex be run with no load on it? Just for testing (with controller)


And not to forget, be sure to add fuses to the wiring and a precharge resistor over the main contactor (switch) as pointed out by the controller wiring. Here is an example of testing a motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x9rUYGG9oE


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## kortas (Apr 18, 2012)

gunnarhs said:


> The motor (original from electric Peugeot 106) is a 120V 11 KW Leroy-Somer SepEx (200A max, 20 KW max, field current 1->10A)
> The original (damaged) Sagem controller was repaced by a Kelly Controller (KDC 120V, 400A )
> The original NiCd Saft batteries were replaced by LiFePO4 (3,2V 200Ah)


Hi Gunnarhs,

I have Peugeot 106 Sep-ex 11kW motor and I want to put it in a Fiat 126 (now there is 6.5kW AC motor which is hard to find a controller for - original one is 144V).

Do you have good/bad experience with Kelly KDC and Peugeot 106 Sep-ex motor?
I am thinking of getting either *KDZ 120V 400A* or *HSE 144V 450A* or *HSE 120V 600A* for it... 

I was almost sure all of them should work fine with that motor, but now when I am reading this discussion I am not sure at all 

Kortas


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

kortas said:


> Hi Gunnarhs,
> 
> I have Peugeot 106 Sep-ex 11kW motor and I want to put it in a Fiat 126 (now there is 6.5kW AC motor which is hard to find a controller for - original one is 144V).
> 
> ...


Hi,

we now have a KDC 120V 400A but would prefer KDC 120V 600A. 
We have already tested HSE 120V 800A for the Peugeot-Motor but it did not work, there is something different in the traction control of the HSE.
I do not know about KDZ, but I think the most powerful KDZ is the 400A which is too small l (400A version only produces 170A continous). 
So I would recommend the most powerful 120V KDC which is the KDC 120V 600A.
With the Kelly the car has been driven over 15.000 km in 1,5 year which is the same distance it was driven with the original SECAM-controller in 5 years from 2000-2005 (the car was out of operation from 2006-2011)
The car has a range of 200 km with 25kWh LiFeYPO4 - Pack, 8km/kWh
(I drive it 160km and load 20kWh when i have it, all year same range).

The only problem with the Kelly (KDC 400A) is to deliver more than 170 A continous, therefore the car is not very powerful in higher speeds.


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## kortas (Apr 18, 2012)

gunnarhs said:


> Hi,
> 
> we now have a KDC 120V 400A but would prefer KDC 120V 600A.
> We have already tested HSE 120V 800A for the Peugeot-Motor but it did not work, there is something different in the traction control of the HSE.
> ...


15.000 km in 1.5 year by electric that is amazing!

Are you sure 400A peak (170A continuous) is not powerfull enough? I think the Peugeot motor has something like 100A continuous and 200A peak rating...

Anyway I have not found KDC 400A but only KDC 600A (http://kellycontroller.com/kdc1260324v-120v600aseparately-excited-with-regen-p-418.html) so I will probably get that one as you suggested. 400A version there is only KDZ.

By the way, how many of cells do you use - 36? Yellow, blue? As far as I know there is 136V maximum controller voltage (120V nominal)...


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

kortas said:


> 15.000 km in 1.5 year by electric that is amazing!
> 
> Are you sure 400A peak (170A continuous) is not powerfull enough? I think the Peugeot motor has something like 100A continuous and 200A peak rating...
> 
> ...


Yes, the car is a company car which the workers can have for one week, none is complaining about range but everyone about power. 
I can not change the fact that this is only a 11 kW Motor (max 20 kW), the motor is the only thing left in the car which is original from France and is not going to be changed. But it is possible to squeeze more out of it at cost of
range and durability. 
The motor seems to draw much more than 200A (worn?) under strain, especially when accelerated hard. This is not so much problem on the motor side but the problem begins when there is more current than 150A drawn for longer time on the battery side (continous current). The controller is a KDC 12402-type and has the same specs as the KDZ.
This type of controller shuts off when current exceeds 170A battery side(the HSE we had did cutback current and cause motor to break heavely which was much worse).
We have excactly 36 batteries. we have the ones from Thundersky (now Wilson, are yellow).
If they are loaded up to top, voltage can be more than 136V and controller does not start, turning on lights/radio helps then with starting


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

gunnarhs said:


> Yes Kostov recommends the Kelly-controllers for their application.
> In this case you could use a 120V Sepex-controller wtih 0-30A field current (be sure then that field current is between 5-25A)
> I would ask Kelly/Kostov if they recommend KDZ, KDC or HSE for this type of Motor. I would recommend a 600A version at least to be able to support 200A. (the 400A version limits continious current to 170A)
> If you intend to use voltage-control-mode for the field or you are having less than 5A in Field I would not use HSE. How are you going to change the field current (or are you keeping it constant?)


Thanks for the reply, Kelly as sold me the HSE for 600A but I am going to use a maximum of 200A. The field changes between 8 and 15 A. Above 35A (field current) the motor start to smoke after a while.

But this HSE controller have blown up for 2 times. I have a new one now, but haven't got time to test it yet. 

Maybe this happens because the HSE assembly as a direct connection to the contactor and the controller at the same time, not allowing the controller to pre-charge. When the 12v aux battery started to get unstable durring the tests the controller and the contactor connected multiple times at the same time causing serious damage on the interior capacitors.


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## pedm (May 2, 2011)

I test mine before and with 190A as peak for the stator, and it climbs fine. It is a Renault Clio II year 2000.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

pedm said:


> I test mine before and with 190A as peak for the stator, and it climbs fine. It is a Renault Clio II year 2000.


Ok, good to hear that


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## kortas (Apr 18, 2012)

Here is how Leroy Somer motor is wound...


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

kortas said:


> Here is how Leroy Somer motor is wound...


Ok thanks for this , that picture was missing in the Peugeot-leaflet and I got no answer from the company which sells Leroy Somer. I did not remove or disassemble the motor from the car we were working on 
(fat minus on that!) but I new this was in basic a 4 Pole SepEx motors with additional windings (series/parallel). Measuring the resistance + try/error with different controllers (KDC/HSE) indicated that a shunt--speed-controller was needed which was confirmed by this post.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg02449.html

It seems that the bigger poles (PP) are the Sepex-Poles (seem connected with F1 and F2) and the smaller (PA ) seem connected somehow to the armature (A1/A2) 
As far as I can see the bigger Sepex-windings (PP) are connected in series , 5,5% Ohm is then the total resistance which matches about the resistance I measured including the cables (6-8 Ohm different between cars).
The smaller PP (armature ?) windings seem also connected in series but I can not see if the chain itself is serial or prallel to the armature. From the Picture I would more assume that they are in series which would be in contradiction to the controller experience.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> The smaller PP (armature ?) windings seem also connected in series but I can not see if the chain itself is serial or prallel to the armature. From the Picture I would more assume that they are in series which would be in contradiction to the controller experience.


Hi gun,

These are the interpoles. The coils on interpoles are wired in series with the armature and always have the full armature current flowing through them. The controller ignores the interpoles and the coils on the interpoles are treated as part of the armature circuit.

Regards,

major


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

major said:


> Hi gun,
> 
> These are the interpoles. The coils on interpoles are wired in series with the armature and always have the full armature current flowing through them. The controller ignores the interpoles and the coils on the interpoles are treated as part of the armature circuit.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks Major, this explaines the behaviour for me


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