# [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds like running 144 volts through a 12 volt relay is welding the
contacts. Not suprising on DC. You need one rated for at least 144 volts
DC.

Z



> David Abineri <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > OK, guys, I am looking for the definitive answer to the question of what
> > relay to use to control a ceramic heater out of on the of the $20 space
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

This type of unit is a relay that is 12 volt contact and coil rated. You 
need a contactor that the coil is rated for 12 VDC and the contacts are 
rated for at least twice the voltage that is going through it.

Also it is prefer to get a contactor that has built in surge suppressor. I 
use TYCO/Electronics contactor No. Lev200ANAA Relays for all my accessories 
unit.

Source of supply if either from evsource.com or evparts.com.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Abineri" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay


> OK, guys, I am looking for the definitive answer to the question of what
> relay to use to control a ceramic heater out of on the of the $20 space
> heaters that are readily available. I am running to from a 144V battery
> pack and triggering the relay from the 12V I get when turning the heater
> fan on so that the heater only comes on when the fan is on. I have a
> 20amp automotive fuse in series with the heater.
>
> I understand that the resistance of the heater may be quite low when it
> is cold but here is what I fail to understand:
>
> First, I used a regular 12V 30A/40A relay to control the heater and, as
> soon as I turned it on for the first time the contacts in the relay
> fused so that it remained on all the time. The 20A fuse did NOT blow.
>
> Next, I used a JM1AN-TMP-DC12V relay that specs out at being able to
> handle an 80A inrush current and a 20A steady state current.
> Data sheet at:
> http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=JM1AN-TMP-DC12Vvirtualkey66710000virtualkey769-JM1AN-TMP-DC12V
> As soon as I turned the heater on, this one went up in smoke too. The
> 20A fuse did NOT blow.
>
> Gav, in New Zealand, and others indicate that a solid state relay,
> G3NA-D210B will do the job.
>
> But my question is, "What is going on here?"
>
> Why did the JM1AN-TMP-DC12V burn up?
> Can one use a mechanical relay for this job?
> This is not an inductive load, right?
> The 20A fuse did not blow so I was under 20A in each case.
> Are there other options besides the G3NA-D210B.
>
> I need to understand what is happening here so I hope someone has the
> experience or wisdom to help me to understand and to make my next choice
> for controlling this heater element.
>
> Thanks in advance, Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> D. Abineri [email protected]
>
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> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David Abineri asked:
>> what relay to use to control a ceramic heater out of on the of the $20 space
>> heaters that are readily available. I am running to from a 144V battery
>> pack and triggering the relay from the 12V I get when turning the heater
>> fan on so that the heater only comes on when the fan is on. I have a
>> 20amp automotive fuse in series with the heater.
>>
>> First, I used a regular 12V 30A/40A relay to control the heater and, as
>> soon as I turned it on for the first time the contacts in the relay
>> fused so that it remained on all the time. The 20A fuse did NOT blow.

Yep! Automotive relays and fuses are only rated for a little over 12v 
(typically 24vdc to 32vdc maximum). Your first mistake was to use an 
automotive relay on 144vdc. The second was to use a low-voltage 
automotive fuse in a 144vdc circuit.

>> Next, I used a JM1AN-TMP-DC12V relay that specs out at being able to
>> handle an 80A inrush current and a 20A steady state current.
>> Why did the JM1AN-TMP-DC12V burn up?

Again, note that it only has *AC* contact ratings. Such relays are only 
good for about 1/4 of their AC rating on DC (i.e. a 240vac contact can 
only safely switch 240/4 = 60 volts DC.

>> Gav, in New Zealand, and others indicate that a solid state relay,
>> G3NA-D210B will do the job.

Solid state relays are a possibility, but expensive. Be aware that 99% 
of them are AC *only*. You need one that is explicitly rated for a DC 
load. The G3NA-D210B is AC only.

>> Can one use a mechanical relay for this job?

Yes, but it has to be rated for the *DC voltage* being switched. A DC 
relay will have much larger spacings between its off-state contacts, or 
blowout magnets, or some physical insulator gets pushed between the 
contacts to break the arc.

An AC rated contact depends on the AC line voltage passing through zero 
120 times per second to extinguish the arc.

>> This is not an inductive load, right?

Correct. A ceramic heater is basically a resistive load.

>> The 20A fuse did not blow so I was under 20A in each case.

The fuse didn't blow because there was no overcurrent condition. The 
heater was drawing its normal current; just stuck on.

You need the high DC voltage rated fuse so it will safely blow if the 
*heater* or some part of the wiring to it shorts out.

>> Are there other options besides the G3NA-D210B.

Yes; lots. Roland suggested:

> You need a contactor that the coil is rated for 12 VDC and the
> contacts are rated for at least twice the voltage that is going
> through it.

Good advice. Note that the voltage rating of contacts in series adds (as 
long as they are part of the same switch or relay and both switch 
simultaneously. You can use two 120vdc contacts in series for 240vdc, 
etc. And AC contacts can be used on DC at 1/4th their AC rated voltage.

> I use TYCO/Electronics contactor No. Lev200ANAA Relays for all my
> accessories unit.

That's a good one, rated at 320vdc and 500amps. I don't see it at 
evparts, but it's at evsource
http://evsource.com/tls_relays.php ($89.99)

The traditional choice is the Potter & Brumfield PRD series. For 
example, PRD-11DH0-12, which has DPDT 125vdc 20amp contacts that you can 
wire in series for 250vdc, and a blowout magnet between the contacts. 
See http://www.evparts.com/prod-RL2517.htm ($64.51 from evparts)
(Note that this is a generic picture; the blowout magnet is not shown. 
It should be in that slot between the contacts.)

You can also use the smaller/cheaper Potter & Brumfield KUEP series (for 
example, KUEP-3D15-12 with one 150vdc 10amp contact, KUEP-7D15-12 with 
DPST 150vdc 5amp contacts, or KUEP-11D15-12 with DPDT 150vdc 5amp contacts.

The KUEP-3D15-12 is in stock at Mouser (their #655-KUEP-3D15-12, $18.83)
http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9f7eL1bU694le6rSrBArDQ%3d%3d

The KUEP-11D15-12 is in stock at Digikey for $19.99 (their #PB840)
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PB840-ND

You can also use a multi-pole relay with AC rated contacts, and wire all 
of them in series so their total is (say) 600vac for a 150vdc rating.

Finally, include an RC "snubber" across the contacts. For your ceramic 
heater, it should be about 0.1uF to 0.47uF and 10-100 ohms. For example, 
Mouser part# 539-104M06QC22 is a Mallory 0.1uF 22ohm "quencharc" 
snubber for $4.42.
http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=u7ZFOgOpR2sRl9%2fEVLxKFg%3d%3d

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>
> You can also use the smaller/cheaper Potter & Brumfield KUEP series (for
> example, KUEP-3D15-12 with one 150vdc 10amp contact, KUEP-7D15-12 with
> DPST 150vdc 5amp contacts, or KUEP-11D15-12 with DPDT 150vdc 5amp contacts.
>
> The KUEP-3D15-12 is in stock at Mouser (their #655-KUEP-3D15-12, $18.83)
> http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9f7eL1bU694le6rSrBArDQ%3d%3d


This is the one I'm carrying, Magnecraft brand, with socket and hold down
clip, bottom of the page:

http://evsource.com/tls_relays.php

This unit has blowouts. I use it with a snubber circuit like Lee mentions.
However, I'm using a cap and resistor separately, I like the idea of a
single snubber unit to simplify - I'll get that item in stock and offer it
on the site.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 12/13/2008 1:34:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

>
>
> You can also use the smaller/cheaper Potter & Brumfield KUEP series (for
> example, KUEP-3D15-12 with one 150vdc 10amp contact, KUEP-7D15-12 with
> DPST 150vdc 5amp contacts, or KUEP-11D15-12 with DPDT 150vdc 5amp contacts.
>
> The KUEP-3D15-12 is in stock at Mouser (their #655-KUEP-3D15-12, $18.83)
> http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9f7eL1bU694le6rSrBArDQ%3d%3d


This is the one I'm carrying, Magnecraft brand, with socket and hold down
clip, bottom of the page:

http://evsource.com/tls_relays.php

This unit has blowouts. I use it with a snubber circuit like Lee mentions.
However, I'm using a cap and resistor separately, I like the idea of a
single snubber unit to simplify - I'll get that item in stock and offer it
on the site.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,

An DPST open frame relay such as a Potter-Brumfield PRD7AYO-12 can be made
to work quite readily by connecting the poles in series. The extra air gap
and size of the 25 AMP contacts and the double-break feature of the two
poles in series cuts down significantly on contact damage. Because it is an
open frame relay you would want to put it in some sort of enclosure to avoid
inadvertent contact 8-O and contamination.

These relays crop up on eBay from time to time at $10 or less.

Tom





> dabineri wrote:
> >
> > OK, guys, I am looking for the definitive answer to the question of what
> > relay to use to control a ceramic heater out of on the of the $20 space
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> The KUEP-3D15-12 is stock at Mouser (#655-KUEP-3D15-12, $18.83)
>> http://mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9f7eL1bU694le6rSrBArDQ%3d%3d



> [email protected] wrote:
> > This is the one I'm carrying, Magnecraft brand, with socket and hold
> > down clip, bottom of the page:
> > http://evsource.com/tls_relays.php
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can get a POTTER & BRUMFIELD - PRD-11DH0-12 - Power Relay from Newark
that'll do 20A for $38



http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-potter-brumfield/prd-11dh0-12/power-r
elay/dp/18M9286?_requestid=249741



They're only rated for 125VDC but you can run the two pair of contacts in
series for up to 250VDC. I did this for my 192V pack.



I was able to search around and find them for almost down to $20.



Mike



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Fuses have a time-amp chart, you need to look at that.
> > A 20 amp fuse means it can handle 20 Amps indefinitely
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler wrote:
> > You should not series the contacts to gain 250 VDC.
> > Use properly designed and selected components
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > As an industrial electrician I have seen only one contact per leg of 3
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler wrote:
> > I think we are discussing two things.
> >
> > Safety related switches often have two contacts in series ie
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is the RC "snubber" referenced by Lee the same as the set of diodes, 
capacitors and resistors that KTA used to/ (still does) sell?

This is the package that John Wayland once referred to as a 
frankenrelay or something along those lines because of all the 
external wiring for what I though was a snubber circuit.

John O'Connor






> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The KUEP-11D15-12 is in stock at Digikey for $19.99 (their #PB840)
> > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Abineri wrote:
> > OK, guys, I am looking for the definitive answer to the question of what
> > relay to use to control a ceramic heater out of on the of the $20 space
> > heaters that are readily available. I am running to from a 144V battery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Bentler wrote:
> > I think you are talking about the dielectric check voltage
> > requirements. These values WILL of course be higher than the
> > intended installed voltage.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with you, Lee. If one gets digging around in the technical section of
a manufacturers catalog it isn't unusual to find that they do give
guidelines for the number of contacts to connect in series for a given
voltage, amperage, and load type. This is especially common with European
equipment under the IEC certification system. Unfortunately, most of them
have not submitted the products to UL for DC testing and therefore they meet
with some skepticism here in the US.

For example, here is an excerpt from a Bussmann catalog for a rotary switch,
showing the number of poles which must be connected in series for various
voltages.

http://www.nabble.com/file/p21006528/IEC%2BRatings.jpg 

Zeke had mentioned elsewhere that Square D heavy duty disconnects are
connected with three poles in series when used in PV applications, and while
it may be standard practice in some circles, the fact of the matter is that
there is technical bulletin which states that they don't have to be
connected in series at all. Yes, other DC applications require 2 poles in
series for these switches, but because of the limited currect
characteristics of PV the same rules don't apply. (Although the 30 Amp
version of the switch does have to be de-rated.)

http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=09008926800f998d

Tom





> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Dan Bentler wrote:
> >> You should not series the contacts to gain 250 VDC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The reason I look at IEC products with skepticsm is that they often don't 
perform well in the real world. We've used some in pump panels, and 
typically you had to double the ratings if you wnated them to stand up for a 
decent amount of time in the field. In a factory, where everything is clean 
and dry, they may do all right at the rated specs. But out in a farmer's 
field, in the moisture we have in the Pacfic Northwest, they wouldn't hold 
up very well, we found out; so I always spec'd NEMA starters, if I could.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Bowes" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay


>
> I agree with you, Lee. If one gets digging around in the technical section 
> of
> a manufacturers catalog it isn't unusual to find that they do give
> guidelines for the number of contacts to connect in series for a given
> voltage, amperage, and load type. This is especially common with European
> equipment under the IEC certification system. Unfortunately, most of them
> have not submitted the products to UL for DC testing and therefore they 
> meet
> with some skepticism here in the US.
>
> For example, here is an excerpt from a Bussmann catalog for a rotary 
> switch,
> showing the number of poles which must be connected in series for various
> voltages.
>
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p21006528/IEC%2BRatings.jpg
>
> Zeke had mentioned elsewhere that Square D heavy duty disconnects are
> connected with three poles in series when used in PV applications, and 
> while
> it may be standard practice in some circles, the fact of the matter is 
> that
> there is technical bulletin which states that they don't have to be
> connected in series at all. Yes, other DC applications require 2 poles in
> series for these switches, but because of the limited currect
> characteristics of PV the same rules don't apply. (Although the 30 Amp
> version of the switch does have to be de-rated.)
>
> http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=09008926800f998d
>
> Tom
>
>
>


> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >> Dan Bentler wrote:
> >>> You should not series the contacts to gain 250 VDC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Another contactor I have been using since 1985 in my EV, is a Square D Size 
1, 3 pole AC contactor. I have all three poles bus bar together in 
parallel. It was use to disconnect the 50 amp Cableform SCR battery charger 
from 1985 to 2002.

I still using it on my PFC-50 charger up to day. The contacts are still 
bright and polish as the day I install it.

These Square D AC Magnetic Starters and Contactors are normally rated for 
600 VAC anyway. This type of contactor has many add on units like a 
Transient Suppressor unit and power pole additions.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Bowes" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay


>
> I agree with you, Lee. If one gets digging around in the technical section 
> of
> a manufacturers catalog it isn't unusual to find that they do give
> guidelines for the number of contacts to connect in series for a given
> voltage, amperage, and load type. This is especially common with European
> equipment under the IEC certification system. Unfortunately, most of them
> have not submitted the products to UL for DC testing and therefore they 
> meet
> with some skepticism here in the US.
>
> For example, here is an excerpt from a Bussmann catalog for a rotary 
> switch,
> showing the number of poles which must be connected in series for various
> voltages.
>
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p21006528/IEC%2BRatings.jpg
>
> Zeke had mentioned elsewhere that Square D heavy duty disconnects are
> connected with three poles in series when used in PV applications, and 
> while
> it may be standard practice in some circles, the fact of the matter is 
> that
> there is technical bulletin which states that they don't have to be
> connected in series at all. Yes, other DC applications require 2 poles in
> series for these switches, but because of the limited currect
> characteristics of PV the same rules don't apply. (Although the 30 Amp
> version of the switch does have to be de-rated.)
>
> http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=09008926800f998d
>
> Tom
>
>
>


> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >
> > > Dan Bentler wrote:
> > >> You should not series the contacts to gain 250 VDC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I hear you on the NEMA vs IEC topic, Joe. The NEMA stuff is typically meant
to be rebuildable and last virtually forever, and the IEC units are
basically throw-aways. They are products of two different design
philosophies, and yes, one does have to take into consideration the
conditions of use. My point was simply bring to light that there are
sometimes sources for information about products which are available, but
usually require a bit of "information mining". This is true whether the
products are NEMA or IEC.

Tom




> joe-22 wrote:
> >
> > The reason I look at IEC products with skepticsm is that they often don't
> > perform well in the real world. We've used some in pump panels, and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Square D folks make alota TRAIN stuff that lives in DC boxes in MU and 
Light rail hardware, thriving on 600-700 VDC.How DEEP are yur pockets, as 
trains, one-foot-to-the-foot-scale are a frightfully expensive hobby!

Seeya

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay


> Another contactor I have been using since 1985 in my EV, is a Square D 
> Size 1, 3 pole AC contactor. I have all three poles bus bar together in 
> parallel. It was use to disconnect the 50 amp Cableform SCR battery 
> charger from 1985 to 2002.
>
> I still using it on my PFC-50 charger up to day. The contacts are still 
> bright and polish as the day I install it.
>
> These Square D AC Magnetic Starters and Contactors are normally rated for 
> 600 VAC anyway. This type of contactor has many add on units like a 
> Transient Suppressor unit and power pole additions.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom Bowes" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay
>
>
>>
>> I agree with you, Lee. If one gets digging around in the technical 
>> section of
>> a manufacturers catalog it isn't unusual to find that they do give
>> guidelines for the number of contacts to connect in series for a given
>> voltage, amperage, and load type. This is especially common with European
>> equipment under the IEC certification system. Unfortunately, most of them
>> have not submitted the products to UL for DC testing and therefore they 
>> meet
>> with some skepticism here in the US.
>>
>> For example, here is an excerpt from a Bussmann catalog for a rotary 
>> switch,
>> showing the number of poles which must be connected in series for various
>> voltages.
>>
>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p21006528/IEC%2BRatings.jpg
>>
>> Zeke had mentioned elsewhere that Square D heavy duty disconnects are
>> connected with three poles in series when used in PV applications, and 
>> while
>> it may be standard practice in some circles, the fact of the matter is 
>> that
>> there is technical bulletin which states that they don't have to be
>> connected in series at all. Yes, other DC applications require 2 poles in
>> series for these switches, but because of the limited currect
>> characteristics of PV the same rules don't apply. (Although the 30 Amp
>> version of the switch does have to be de-rated.)
>>
>> http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=09008926800f998d
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>


> >> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dan Bentler wrote:
> >> >> You should not series the contacts to gain 250 VDC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John in Ma wrote:
> > Is the RC "snubber" referenced by Lee the same as the set of diodes,
> > capacitors and resistors that KTA used to/ (still does) sell?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Wyatt wrote:
> > I'm thinking of using a power MOSFET on my conversion.
> 
> A MOSFET (or other solid state switching device) is fine. Just remember
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > John in Ma wrote:
> >> Is the RC "snubber" referenced by Lee the same as the set of diodes,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John in Ma wrote:
> > The relay looks similar to the one shown at ev parts
> > See http://www.evparts.com/prod-RL2517.htm ($64.51 from evparts)
> > but it has a magnet.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks,

I will have to mull it over for a while to understand everything. I 
think this is what is included in the KTA relay package I got which I 
wired up based on their instructions.


If anyone is interested the large version of the wiring diagrams is at

http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/WiringDiagram

John





> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > In general, here's how you want to wire the heater relay and its
> > snubber. View with a fixed width font like Courier:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John in Ma wrote:
> > If anyone is interested the large version of the wiring diagrams is at
> > http://wiki.saymoo.org/EvdlGems/WiringDiagram
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Excellent writeup Lee. I'm close to doing my own heater and this is the
guide I needed.

About the overtemp switch, where do most people locate it? In my car the
heater core is horizontal and the air movement is downward. The question is,
do I place the overtemp switch above or below the heater core?

If I place the switch below the heater core, (downwind) it can react to an
overheating heater, but only with the fan moving. It will do nothing if the
fan fails.

If I place it above the heater core, it can react to a fan failure ie; the
fan has stopped and hot air is rising. It will do no good if the fan is
running.

Or find two switches and locate them above and below the heater core.

I guess the most likely failure is the fan stopping. Is this all I really
need to protect against?

Dave Cover, chillin' in New England



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > John in Ma wrote:
> > > The relay looks similar to the one shown at ev parts
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee, all,

Interesting thread. It brings up a long-standing question I've had.



>
> Absolutely! I completely agree that people should stay within the
> ratings of parts. That's why it's a mistake to use 32v rated automotive
> fuses for a 144vdc battery circuit.


The most common choices for main contactors in the "typical" daily-driver
seem to be the Kilovac EV/LEV 200 series and the Albright SW-200. I much
prefer the Albright for its robustness. However, the contacts are only
rated for 96V. Many have discovered the SW-200 to work well above this, and
to break "insane" loads and still function. So the questions: did Albright
rate these for 96V themselves, and what would be the procedure to validate
their ability to safely run at higher voltages?

I never recommend to customers to use them at higher than 96V, although many
do regardless.

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> dave cover wrote:
> > Excellent writeup Lee. I'm close to doing my own heater and this is
> > the guide I needed.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Again, note that it only has *AC* contact ratings. Such relays are only
> > good for about 1/4 of their AC rating on DC (i.e. a 240vac contact can
> > only safely switch 240/4 = 60 volts DC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Wyatt wrote:
> > would it be adequate to use a conventional 4PDT relay rated for 20
> > amps at 250VAC to switch 144VDC?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd like to use two elements with a single pole contactor:
(view with fixed font width)

pack voltage fuses
and contactors (at 
least 1 of each)! 
+120v__/\ ___/____________________________________________
pack \/ | | | |
F1 S2 | | | | Two
fuse switch or _|____ |_ _|_____|_ three-
contactor | | | | | | | | terminal
22 ohms 0.47uF | 1 2 3 | | 4 5 6 | ceramic
R2 C2 |____|____| |____|____| heating
__/\/\__||__ | | elements
| || | | |
-pack_________________|______/ ____|________|________ __|
K1 NO
contact

k1 => Albright SW60B (already have)

http://www.albrightinternational.com/lang/en/products.php?ID=576


The two elements I have are about 100 ohms terminal to terminal resistance.
I'd like to use these because they came in a nice shroud with a fan duct.

If I were to use the circuit above for the heater (12 volt circuit would
stay the same) with a 22 ohm, 0.1 uF Quencarc snubber and the same other
components suggested, would that pose any hazard? The SW60B is rated for
120vdc max contact voltage with a resistive load and 80A continuous current.

At lower currents could it be used with a 144 volt pack?

If it was wired to 120 volts from a 144 volt pack would the balancers on the
120 volt part of the pack get overworked when the heater was on?

Thanks for any advice.

John Nicholson


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Ceramic-Heater-Relay-tp20991288p21079917.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do *not* wire this to a 120V tap from the pack.
Since these heaters will draw about 10 Amp from
your pack, you cause serious imbalance each time
you switch them on.
There is no problem running the ceramic elements
on 144V and your snubber will avoid a large arc
on the 120V contacts, so I think you will be fine
as long as the S2 switch is indeed also rated for
HV DC and the F1 fuse as well.

BTW, I did not see an over-heat protection.
It is usually a NC contact, you should wire this
in series with the k1 coil so that an overheat
detection will automatically cancel heating.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]x
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of nicklogan
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ceramic Heater Relay


I'd like to use two elements with a single pole contactor:
(view with fixed font width)

pack voltage fuses
and contactors (at 
least 1 of each)! 
+120v__/\ ___/____________________________________________
pack \/ | | | |
F1 S2 | | | | Two
fuse switch or _|____ |_ _|_____|_ three-
contactor | | | | | | | |
terminal
22 ohms 0.47uF | 1 2 3 | | 4 5 6 | ceramic
R2 C2 |____|____| |____|____| heating
__/\/\__||__ | |
elements
| || | | |
-pack_________________|______/ ____|________|________ __|
K1 NO
contact

k1 => Albright SW60B (already have)

http://www.albrightinternational.com/lang/en/products.php?ID=576


The two elements I have are about 100 ohms terminal to terminal
resistance.
I'd like to use these because they came in a nice shroud with a fan
duct.

If I were to use the circuit above for the heater (12 volt circuit would
stay the same) with a 22 ohm, 0.1 uF Quencarc snubber and the same other
components suggested, would that pose any hazard? The SW60B is rated for
120vdc max contact voltage with a resistive load and 80A continuous
current.

At lower currents could it be used with a 144 volt pack?

If it was wired to 120 volts from a 144 volt pack would the balancers on
the 120 volt part of the pack get overworked when the heater was on?

Thanks for any advice.

John Nicholson


--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Ceramic-Heater-Relay-tp20991288p21079917.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> nicklogan wrote:
> > I'd like to use two elements with a single pole contactor:
> > (view with fixed font width)
> >
> ...


----------

