# Possible tractor project



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was just given an old Jacobsen tractor, I think a 1964 Chief, that was in a fire. I think it's structurally sound and most of the fire damage was in the top of the motor, and three of the tires, (one was brand new and escaped any damage.) Plus it has a loader  
I'm thinking I might be able to get by with just a contactor setup instead of a controller and simply run the motor at a steady speed. If I can get the pulley off the hydraulic pump I'll spin it with a drill and see if the loader hydraulics are still functioning.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice tractor!

I would be interested to see how the contactor motor set up works with the hydraulic pump as I will be looking to do likewise for the Russell 3-D tractor I am due to convert.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I just "drove" it a few inches back and forth with an electric drill on the engine flywheel bolt. It's already converted to electric, fastest conversion ever 
Done, next project...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have to like another tractor?! Really?!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3,

WOW, you sure do find some really nice things to play with.

I'll be watching with great interest to see how this will turn out with a contactor controller.

I assume that you plan to use the hydraulic system as a constant load to control motor rpm and the clutch and transmission to control the ground speed.

Keep up the neat projects.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have to like another tractor?! Really?!


Yup!



JRP3 said:


> I just "drove" it a few inches back and forth with an electric drill on the engine flywheel bolt. It's already converted to electric, fastest conversion ever
> Done, next project...


I guess the drill does have motor, controller, batteries, charger. 
Hmmm, conversion done!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I assume that you plan to use the hydraulic system as a constant load to control motor rpm and the clutch and transmission to control the ground speed.


 That's the idea though I don't know if the lightly loaded hydraulic pump will be enough of a load when I'm using the brakes. I may need to use a switch to cut power, but then I might lose the loader pressure. Haven't figured it all out yet  I figure I can always add a controller if it doesn't work out as planned. Actually I may borrow the system from the AMPhibian to test it all out, depending on how quickly I find a suitable motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was thinking of a shunt, PM or compound motor (converted to just use the shunt field maybe?) for my conversion, working on the basis of no runaway rpm when the pump unloads.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure, if I can find something appropriate, and cost effective


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sure, if I can find something appropriate, and cost effective


I was looking at this little guy as a stand-in for a motorcyle project I'm considering, until the budget can accomodate an Impulse 9 or AC drive system. I just wanted a little, cheap, series, motor to make it move. I communicated with the guy and found out it's a SepEx, shunt, or something.



> The field coils are wrapped and coated with a resin substance. The size of the wires visible at the edges is approx 1/8" diameter round stock. I hope that helps! Thanks!


If you feel like messing with the "tang" drive, it seems like a good deal. I was going to try to turn a new shaft, just for the experience.

About 12 hours left in the auction...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting, except for the tang drive. I had an idea that maybe I could bolt a bearing to the motor face and get a shaft made that fits into the tang on one end and has a normal round shaft with keyway on the other. Maybe I'll put in a low bid, if I get it then I can put some time and money into messing with it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

For that money it may well be worth a punt.

Possibly a longer shaft with your drive pulley between two bearings and then the end made to fit the tang. The motor shaft will then not need to support the radial loads from the pulley.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah that's a better idea than my single bearing idea, which might cause the loads to rock the shaft back with the single bearing as a pivot point. I'd have to build a pretty beefy support bracket for the outer bearing. Although if I use the same setup as it has now the drive belt puts rearward load and the belt for the hydraulic pump somewhat counters that with forward load. Until I hit the brake which unloads the drive belt, so, yeah, beefy support still needed.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting, except for the tang drive. I had an idea that maybe I could bolt a bearing to the motor face and get a shaft made that fits into the tang on one end and has a normal round shaft with keyway on the other. Maybe I'll put in a low bid, if I get it then I can put some time and money into messing with it.


JRP3,

I did something similar to a golf cart motor. it works OK as long as its used in a direct shaft drive. If you try a chain drive yo must support the extension shaft with 2 bearings.

Had a thought on fixing the tang drive type motors a while back. Thought I'd pass it on for what it's worth.


Have a shaft extension made with a light press fit into the socket and cut a weld relief into the face that would butt against the armature shaft. The shaft should have a slot cut in the end to engage the tang.
Tear down the motor and grind/lathe turn a weld relief into the end surface of the armature shaft.
Heat the armature socket and shrink cool the extension shaft and slip fit/press it into the tang socket ensuring that the tang is fully engaged.
Fill the weld reliefs and machine as required.

Hope it's something you can use.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I kind of get what you are describing, but not quite seeing it for some reason. Don't know if you could sketch it out in some way so I could get a better picture?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I kind of get what you are describing, but not quite seeing it for some reason. Don't know if you could sketch it out in some way so I could get a better picture?


Hope this helps a bit. I'm terrible at sketching anymore my hand shakes so much.

An additional note. 

To prevent what happened to Woody's motor when the machinist screwed up:

If there is run-out after welding you would want to place the armature in the lathe and true with a steady rest (see sketch) on the original DE bearing surface.
Then cut off the centering hole made when making the extension shaft and drill a new centering hole and then turn the shaft true.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks, that's pretty much what I was picturing, but that made it clearer.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sold, to man man with the cool, green, tractor! 

Was that you? I couldn't resist watching to see what happened.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, I grabbed it  At that price why not, I'm sure I can figure some use for it, even if it's not appropriate for the tractor. Thanks for the tip, by the way.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah, I grabbed it  At that price why not, I'm sure I can figure some use for it, even if it's not appropriate for the tractor. Thanks for the tip, by the way.


No problemo.  I have this obsession with searching Ebay for interesting motors, since I bought the big GE. At least it finally served some productive purpose again. Maybe I should be an EV personal shopper!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You're hired!  People always talk about their great Ebay finds, I seem to miss them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You're hired!  People always talk about their great Ebay finds, I seem to miss them.


My problem is I keep finding them. I started collecting them, but couldn't seem to collect my thoughts away from dreaming up new projects to fit them.  I sold two, kept two, and invested the big GE into the Inhaler Project business (with the car), so now I'm trying to figure out how to justify buying another or few...

Edit: forgot to mention that I am searching right now - freakin addict...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The motor arrived and I gave it a test spin at 12 volts, seems very smooth and it actually turns in the correct direction that I need, something I was gambling on. No cooling holes in the DE so I'll probably need to modify that and add an external blower.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Parts are flying in  Just got the new tire and mounted it on the freshly painted rim, should be picking up some new/used front rims and tires tomorrow.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet!  We might have to hook a chain up between you and Woody and have a little tug of war!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Better be a looooooong chain 
Been toying with a stacked bearing idea for the motor shaft, two bearings bolted to the motor face, with the pulley mounted outside of them. Doing a bearing-pulley-bearing setup is going to give me interference problems, stacking the bearings eliminates that, and should still stabilize and isolate the shaft. Something like this, but not these actual bearings.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Parts are flying in  Just got the new tire and mounted it on the freshly painted rim, should be picking up some new/used front rims and tires tomorrow.


That is such a dinky little tyre!
What size is that?
The agri ones on mine are 600-16 on rims that are just a little too wide.



toddshotrods said:


> Sweet!  We might have to hook a chain up between you and Woody and have a little tug of war!


Between us it might be competitive, we'd stand no chance if we were up against Jim's Big 13!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Between us it might be competitive, we'd stand no chance if we were up against Jim's Big 13!


That's who the winner faces next, for the EV Tractor Tugging Championship.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That is such a dinky little tyre!
> What size is that?


6-12, which I think is around 22 inches.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Test drive 






Reverse






Motor mount


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Love it. Now that's ingenuity..... lmao. All u need is a few more of them little battery packs...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe something like this?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe something like this?


HA! YES! hahahah. Now, I thought I had seen most pics related to EV's floating around. That takes the cake. lmao.

On a more serious note, I wish I had read your thread earlier. I've turned into a bit of an EV pack rat these last few years and I have a perfect little motor/controller for that tractor. Problem is I probably couldn't bring myself to part with it. I picked up a little Prestolite motor, maybe 7" dia and a Curtis 400 amp controller out of one of them little ez-go maintenance trucks. One of these days, I will do a little tractor project out of it I'm sure. I've never tested the controller, but the motor spins nice.

edit; I had to go dig it up. It took me a while to find it. lol. I lied, it's an Advanced DC and I think they call it a 6.7" ?? 4.1 HP. Class H. 2300 rpm. 36 volt. I think with that pulley, it would fit right on my old lawn tractor! Jeez, that's all I need to get into another project....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great video there, it is almost as slow as my tractor!

At least the trans works, have you tested the FEL?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sort of. I chucked a pulley into a drill and spun the hydraulic pump but not surprisingly the burnt hoses leaked. At least the pump makes some pressure. I'll have to replace the hoses and the fluid and see what happens next.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> On a more serious note, I wish I had read your thread earlier. I've turned into a bit of an EV pack rat these last few years and I have a perfect little motor/controller for that tractor. Problem is I probably couldn't bring myself to part with it.


So you just wanted to tease me with it?  Looks almost perfect with the double pulley too, though probably not the right size for both belts which are different.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> So you just wanted to tease me with it?  Looks almost perfect with the double pulley too, though probably not the right size for both belts which are different.


ha, ya, sorry about that. Every time I think about selling stuff, I just get this feeling of. ... "I will use it, eventually". . and I can't do it. I have stuff from when I ran lead that I kept. lol The only stuff I ever parted with were a few things I gave away to ppl who needed them. 

The pulleys are probably the right size too... lol There are only a few standards widths in the smaller sizes. Looks like that pulley is a taper lock set up also. edit; I see u have two sizes... oops

What are you planning to use for batteries in that thing?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not sure yet, I'll probably just start out with two old 12V lead acids at 24V to see how it all runs and go from there. Might end up with a 7S3P A123 module from China  I could probably use the weight of lead acid for ballast in the rear but I'm not sure that will give me enough run time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So my plan for the motor shaft is to use two flange bearings like this stacked on the end of the motor and have a shaft made to fit the motor slot.

http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-73/1"-Four-Bolt-Flange/Detail









It would look something like this:








Nice and cheap but I'm questioning the ability of 4 bolts to hold two stacked bearings against the side load of the belts. Then I found this which looks perfect, except it costs more than the motor 
http://www.reidsupply.com/sku/PBC-325/









Anyone have better sources, or ideas for a similar setup? I'm thinking a shaft size of at least 3/4 inch.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just realized a problem already, the linear bearing doesn't have a way to hold the shaft, and I'm not sure a press fit would work because the description says the liner material is FrelonGOLD (compound PTFE), which sounds slippery.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What if the bearings mount to a plate that mounts to the chassis, instead of the motor? Then the plate bears the side loads, and any misalignment between the motor shaft and the fabricated shaft assembly's loads wouldn't be directly imposed on the motor's bearings (rather than an interference fit into the slot, the fabricated shaft's tab could be a normal slip-in fit).

As for locating the shaft, you can have grooves turned in it for external locking rings. It's surprising how much of a load a simple ring clip can bear. My current motorcycle's front forks are held together with a thin wire ring clip - all the previous ones I've owned had thread tubes with a screw-in cap - this time just a wire ring. With thrust washers and shims you can even fine-tune the end play.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Both good ideas! I was thinking of a mounting plate for the bearings that also would mount to the tractor frame for added support, similar idea.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I found this linear flange bearing, still pricey at $100 shipped but better than the other one I found, and as a bonus the mounting holes line up exactly with the threaded holes in my motor face. That means I would not need to have an adapter plate made up to mount it or have new holes bored and threaded into the motor face. (I wouldn't trust myself and my HF drill press to get it centered  ). Plus I wouldn't need any more support on the end. And it would look cool 
http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Bearing-PBC-315-Self-Aligning-Flange-Mounted/dp/B002HAV960

It's a single bearing but at 2.8 inches long it would provide about the same support as two stacked flange bearings. Get the shaft made to fit with a couple of grooves for clips and bolt it on. I could go with this smaller slightly cheaper one but at 3/4 inch shaft and only two inch length I'm not sure it would be enough, and the bolt holes don't line up so I'd have to adapt it.
http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Bearing-PBC-310-Self-Aligning-Flange-Mounted/dp/B002HAX9EA

I'm struggling between the cool bolt on aluminum option and the cheap DIY option.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I found this linear flange bearing, still pricey at $100 shipped but better than the other one I found, and as a bonus the mounting holes line up exactly with the threaded holes in my motor face. *That means I would not need to have an adapter plate made up to mount it or have new holes bored and threaded into the motor face. *(I wouldn't trust myself and my HF drill press to get it centered  ). *Plus I wouldn't need any more support on the end. *And it would look cool
> ...


I would go with that option. You can end up spending a bunch of time and money fiddling with the cheaper option, only to wish you would have spent the money for the best one. Plus, it does look cool...


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3,

You might want to look here. The bearing you are looking at is, I believe, a plastic sleeve bearing.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#linear-mounted-ball-bearings/=hf5ihv

These are ball bearings and a lot cheaper. I've been looking at these myself for a compound wound pump motor I picked up for 35.00. The motor had been overheated and had some noise issues that are fixed now.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hmm, they are rated from - 400 F to + 400 F, and "Maximum PV of 20,000", whatever that means, and it says the liner is Frelon, a PTFE-filled composite. http://www.mcmaster.com/#flanged-linear-bearings/=hf9qqv
Sounds pretty rugged, but I'm not sure if they are saying the bearings are frelon or just the inner sleeve is frelon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Reading through the manufacturer's catalog http://www.pbclinear.com/Download/Catalog/PBC-Linear-Motion-Catalog.pdf it seems these actually are a sleeve of Frelon, not sealed bearings. The description seems pretty impressive, page 38, but I don't know if it would be appropriate for my application with a side load. Although I was checking the belt tension today and it's not actually much load, just enough to provide enough friction for the belts.


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Reading through the manufacturer's catalog http://www.pbclinear.com/Download/Catalog/PBC-Linear-Motion-Catalog.pdf it seems these actually are a sleeve of Frelon, not sealed bearings. The description seems pretty impressive, page 38, but I don't know if it would be appropriate for my application with a side load. Although I was checking the belt tension today and it's not actually much load, just enough to provide enough friction for the belts.


Those bearings are for linear motion, as opposed to the rotational motion you're going to need if you want to support your motor shaft!

The bearing with Frelon sleeve may work for rotational application also, it probably uses something like http://www.ggbearings.com/download_literature.php?f=1345 as a bearing.


The roller bearing Jimdear2 mentioned a couple posts ago definitely will not, it's linear motion only. They are for gliding a sled along an axle, not for rotating a shaft! See http://www.boschrexroth.com/business_units/brl/en/produkte/kugelbuechsen/standard_programm/index.jsp for an image and descriptions.

With best regards
Ektus.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Ektus,

Thanks for the information.

Jim


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks to JD2 for bringing up the question and Ektus for answering it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Installed new hoses for the hydraulics, spun the pump with the drill, cylinders started to move, then "splat", big leak out of the pump, and now the pump seems jammed  I was hoping to avoid it but I guess I need to take the pump apart, or see if I can. So far the set screw is seized in the pulley and I can't get it out, but I may be able to take the pump part with it on.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, finally after about three months the guy I got to make a shaft and bearing holder setup got it done. Ended up being fairly pricey at $175  since he said he had around 5 hours in it plus materials, but it looks perfect and feels solid. He said he made a tight fit into the tang drive slot, made a spacer that fit in the depression between the motor face and bearing face, made the housing for the bearing, grooved the shaft for a retainer clip, cut the keyway, and drilled and tapped the end of the shaft for a bolt as an extra way to keep the pulleys from coming off the shaft. He was quite confident that the single bearing would provide enough support.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I did take the pump apart and found melted solder from the reservoir intake screen. Even though there was still hydraulic oil in the reservoir it got hot enough to melt the solder that held the screen together


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good to see this project still alive, I was begining to wonder...

I guess an oil cooler is needed, unless there is another reason it is getting so hot!

The motor is looking good.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I guess an oil cooler is needed, unless there is another reason it is getting so hot!


Well there was this little event called a fire that may have raised the temps a bit


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Well there was this little event called a fire that may have raised the temps a bit


Oh yeah, I forgot about the fire.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The adapter looks good. Have you done a test fit with the motor yet?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes the motor will fit easily where the ICE was, I just have to space it properly and come up with a mounting system. This motor has some brackets already on it so that will make it easier. I need to find some space to get this thing inside to work on since the weather is getting crappy.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In the bag of parts I got with this tractor I found these two "S" brackets. I don't know what they went to originally but they give me the right spacing I need for the motor. I'll have to make another bracket to support the other side of the motor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did some 12V testing with a battery switch. Worked pretty well, pulled about 70-100 amps with me riding along, I'm afraid 24V might be too fast though. Maybe not with the load of the hydraulic pump added in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Did some 12V testing with a battery switch. Worked pretty well, pulled about 70-100 amps with me riding along, I'm afraid 24V might be too fast though. Maybe not with the load of the hydraulic pump added in...


Sweet!  What is the sound? It sounds like there's an ICE running.  I actually had to remind myself that I was watching an EV tractor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The cheap mic on my camera seems to amplify the sound but there is some motor, belt, and gear noise, as well as rattling sheet metal. Motor isn't solidly mounted yet either.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The cheap mic on my camera seems to amplify the sound but there is some motor, belt, and gear noise, as well as rattling sheet metal. Motor isn't solidly mounted yet either.


Gotcha, that all makes sense. Get that motor mounted, and the pump working so we can watch you scoop up some dirt, move it around, and dump it!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The cheap mic on my camera seems to amplify the sound but there is some motor, belt, and gear noise, as well as rattling sheet metal. Motor isn't solidly mounted yet either.


It's the same with my videos, all noise.

Good first run video.
When I did mine I kept it on a leash in case it ran away. That was even inside the workshop.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My first tests were inside too, with me standing on it, didn't think there was much chance of running away with a 12V battery. I did crash into some boxes when I tried third gear  Chirped the tire too on take off  24 volts with just an on off switch might be interesting.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We have bucket! 
















Trip bucket sticks a bit, need to work it some and lube it up. Also I have a leak between my reserviour and pump body so I need to reseal that. Slight leak from the pump shaft as well, but that seems to be slowing down somewhat with use. I hope it fixes itself 
After about 15 minutes of messing around with this, in 40 degree air temps, running between 90-120 amps at 12V, the brush area was 150-160F! Seems a bit high, definitely need to put some sort of blower on it. I'll have to see what it does at 24V but the way the bucket moves now I'm afraid that might be too much motor speed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now we're talking! When you get all the bugs worked out, I think you should get a Yugo or something and just flip it over, and over, and over...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That is a seriously cool machine. I'd like to rig up a loader on one of my tractors, and at the moment the only one which is running is my Cub Cadet 1512 Diesel. It already has hydraulics so it would be fairly simple to connect the hoses to the existing ports that were used to adjust the angle of the snow plow blade.

For my electric tractor projects, probably the Simplicity Broadmoor would be the logical choice, as my electric riding mower is too small. I have several hydraulic cylinders and I also have a power steering pump and a hydraulic control valve that might work. But I'm also thinking about using a couple of electric linear actuators for the bucket lift, and dispensing with hydraulics. 

I was thinking something like these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Actuators-/251183379933
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-...25-Pound-Max-Lift-12-24-Volt-DC-/320948626022
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-OF-8-LINEAR-ACTUATOR-ELECTRIC-ACTUATOR-JT-EVO-/180634705442
http://www.ebay.com/itm/XSCORPION-1...-750-LB-Max-w-Adjustable-Stroke-/230867969851

I think it would also be possible to use an acme threaded rod and a motor to make a strong linear actuator. Something like a motorized vise.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-4-5-x-6-ft-ACME-Threaded-Rod-General-Purpose-Class-2G-/320782516838


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I looked at actuators but the ones I found were expensive and pretty slow, especially if they had a longer stroke length and good power. They might be OK for a short lift requirement like a plow blade.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tried the loader at 24V, surprisingly it did not seem to increase the speed of the hydraulics very much, if at all. Unfortunately it did increase the speed of the pump shaft seal leak  Not sure how much luck I'm going to have finding a seal for this pump. I did find a part number in this manual for the loader but I can't find any source for it as of yet. It's a Cessna aluminum body gear pump.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=1RqjbUZ2FO1zVZSNLCZnzfPka1GvGe4MqE3R6a1c0_jBKP5L0qfjV1m29-NsF


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

Take your pump and go to a hydraulics shop. Or disassemble, measure shaft diameter and housing diameter of the seal and order a matching part.

Nice site with a principle drawing:
http://www.devriesintl.com/products/shaft/oilsealfunc.asp

From the same site: http://www.devriesintl.com/catalog/pdf/47_size_list.pdf


Disclaimer: I don't know that company, but found them through the english language wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_shaft_seal


Regards
Ekkehard.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the links. If I can't find the seal for this pump using the part number I'll do as you suggest.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I got the seal out, (which took drilling the set screw out of the pulley and using a gear puller to get it off the shaft), measured it, and used the deVries link that Ektus provided to find a seal with the same dimension, but could not find their part number for sale on the web. So I used their cross reference table to find a National part number 472705 and took that to my local NAPA store, and it should be here Friday.

Unfortunately I seem to be getting elevated operating temps from two of the motor brushes, or more accurately from where the brush wires screw into the copper bar brush leads. Running with no belts at 12V and 30 amps the top and bottom brush leads are heating up, the top one hit 145 F after about 10 minutes and the bottom one hit around 125 F, where the two sides were around 100 F. I noticed the screw terminal on the top brush lead did not have a flat surface from the crimping process at the factory and was making limited contact, so I filed it flat but it's still getting too warm. The copper bar contact area looks a little rough too, I may have to take the end off the motor to clean it up properly. I am a bit concerned that this motor may not have enough current carrying capacity in these areas, even if I get good contact. I've been pondering adding solder to the joint.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> I've been pondering adding solder to the joint.


If you do, I suggest silver solder, for its higher conductivity and higher melting point 217C/422F compared to 183C for 63/37 Tin/Lead:

http://www.ndt-ed.org/GeneralResources/MaterialProperties/ET/Conductivity_Misc.pdf

http://alasir.com/reference/solder_alloys/

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=370-038

http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2006/08/thermal-conductivity-of-solders/

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/solder.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If I get near 183C I've got bigger problems, though the better conductivity might be worth it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Putting the loader to work, using one EV to fix another 






Single 12V battery.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Had a buddy make up a battery box for me, mounted it, and put a hinged lid on it, lined it with some one inch foam insulation for a snug fit, and now I'm running as designed on 24V. 

Power is good, and the loader is faster and more powerful, though I just blew out the old hydraulic cylinder seals, not surprisingly. You can see some of the carnage in the last pic. Finding the proper seals for these old cylinders may be tricky, and because of the way they mount finding new cylinders that fit won't be easy either. At least I was able to use it to get the transmission back in the Fiero before it lost all pressure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I decided to take the plunge, get the cylinders cut open, and see if I could find matching seals. The machinist couldn't fit them into his lathe because of the fitting so he just used a hand grinder with a cutoff wheel to cut the weld. Another way might be to use a chop saw and just rotate the cylinder, should give a nice clean cut, just be careful not to cut too deep since the piece has a lip that fits inside the main cylinder.

None of the auto parts places could find the seals, though the main one is just an O-ring, but I did find a place fairly close in Ovid NY that rebuilds hydraulic cylinders. http://www.weaverhydraulicsandrepair...-services.html

We matched up all the seals and he's put together a kit specifically for these cylinders, listed under the original parts number from the Danco manual, just ask for the Danco seal kit number 3071-6. He can also cut open your cylinders and rebuild them for you if you send them in.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Big fail  The shaft coupler I had made to fit into the slot drive of the motor snapped off. In hind sight my setup using just a battery switch to hit the motor with 24V and full current at once probably wasn't a good idea. I should probably just get a different motor with an actual male shaft but I'm thinking about maybe having the motor shaft drilled out and threaded, and have a new pulley shaft made that threads into it. The motor has a 7/8ths shaft so I think I could have it drilled out and threaded for a 1/2 inch thread. Anyone have thoughts on that, or other ideas? I guess I'll be adding a motor controller regardless of what motor I end up using, the on/off switch probably would have worked better with a hydrostatic transmission.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Big fail  The shaft coupler I had made to fit into the slot drive of the motor snapped off. In hind sight my setup using just a battery switch to hit the motor with 24V and full current at once probably wasn't a good idea. I should probably just get a different motor with an actual male shaft but I'm thinking about maybe having the motor shaft drilled out and threaded, and have a new pulley shaft made that threads into it. The motor has a 7/8ths shaft so I think I could have it drilled out and threaded for a 1/2 inch thread. Anyone have thoughts on that, or other ideas? I guess I'll be adding a motor controller regardless of what motor I end up using, the on/off switch probably would have worked better with a hydrostatic transmission.


Well JR, I wish I had seen your thread long ago before you bought this motor. The tang and slot drive doesn't even work well for a screwdriver and fastener, let alone a power transmission coupler. These tang drives were always a source of trouble on forklifts. And it was probably not the hard starts causing your failure as that is the way they start on the fork trucks anyway.

I suspect the cause of the failure was fatigue from misalignment. The adapter with the bearing had little to no chance to align the two mating shafts as needed to eliminate any stress on the tang during rotation. Further evidence is the fretting corrosion visible in the photos.

You'll likely have the same problem with a repaired shaft if you use that adapter with bearing. The only repair I see making much sense would be to have a shaft extension fitted to the armature if you can get that made. Run your pulley as overhung load and avoid 3 bearings in line.

Or find a replacement motor. The one you have is like a 3/4 or 1 hp continuous rated compound wound power steering motor. It has a soldered armature and will not stand overloads well at all. On the forklifts, they did power auxiliary attachments with these motors such as tilt and sideshift, so it can take some intermittent loading of 2 hp or so, but not at high duty cycles. 

The compound motor is good for the pump drive because it has a defined no load speed. A brushed PM motor would also work.

Regards,

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Big fail  The shaft coupler I had made to fit into the slot drive of the motor snapped off. In hind sight my setup using just a battery switch to hit the motor with 24V and full current at once probably wasn't a good idea. I should probably just get a different motor with an actual male shaft but I'm thinking about maybe having the motor shaft drilled out and threaded, and have a new pulley shaft made that threads into it. The motor has a 7/8ths shaft so I think I could have it drilled out and threaded for a 1/2 inch thread. Anyone have thoughts on that, or other ideas? I guess I'll be adding a motor controller regardless of what motor I end up using, the on/off switch probably would have worked better with a hydrostatic transmission.


If the threads pull the coupler into the motor shaft, during normal operation, that seems like it would work. Kind of a neat solution, because the force should be partially transmitted down the length of the shaft as it pulls it into the seat.

I would try that just for the fun of experimenting with it!  You're making me want to buy a female splined motor and try it now! 

Edit: Then again, what Major said makes sense (about the motor itself). Sorry J.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> Well JR, I wish I had seen your thread long ago before you bought this motor. The tang and slot drive doesn't even work well for a screwdriver and fastener, let alone a power transmission coupler.


Good point.


> And it was probably not the hard starts causing your failure as that is the way they start on the fork trucks anyway.


But I assume they start up spinning a hydraulic impeller under no load? This was starting against the inertia of two somewhat heavy pulleys and their belts, plus the pulley's they were connected to.


> I suspect the cause of the failure was fatigue from misalignment. The adapter with the bearing had little to no chance to align the two mating shafts as needed to eliminate any stress on the tang during rotation. Further evidence is the fretting corrosion visible in the photos.


 What is fretting corrosion? There is a bunch of black dust but when I cleaned it off I didn't see corrosion. 




> Or find a replacement motor.


Probably the best plan. Ah well, live and learn.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I would try that just for the fun of experimenting with it!  You're making me want to buy a female splined motor and try it now!


I know where you can get one cheap


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> This was starting against the inertia of two somewhat heavy pulleys and their belts, plus the pulley's they were connected to.


Maybe. But nothing like moving the whole tractor or bucket.



> What is fretting corrosion? There is a bunch of black dust but when I cleaned it off I didn't see corrosion.


"*Fretting corrosion refers to corrosion damage at the asperities of contact surfaces. This damage is induced under load and in the presence of repeated relative surface motion, as induced for example by vibration. *Pits or grooves and oxide debris characterize this damage, typically found in machinery, bolted assemblies and ball or roller bearings. Contact surfaces exposed to vibration during transportation are exposed to the risk of fretting corrosion." From: http://corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-fretting/fretting.htm 

Often the dust will be rust colored. I thought that is what I was looking at in the photo. It is likely when there is misalignment which causes mating parts to move relative to each other. With perfect alignment, there would be no relative motion, just force transmitted from one to the other surface. The misalignment will also cause a bending of the tang and mating slot sides causing fatigue.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tractor version 2.0 is up and running with a new motor. This looks like a brand new motor for a Tennant floor sweeper, 36V, a little larger than the last motor, but much larger brushes. You can see the tapered shaft with a woodruf key, which turned out to be more of a pain to mate with than I expected. The first machinist I tried had it for 3 weeks and did nothing, he didn't seem to have a good way to bore a taper, but luckily I found a retired machinist just up the road from work who thought he could do it, and he did. First cut a test piece in aluminum and blued it to check the fit, once he got the angle just right he cut it in steel. Then he cut a bit, or chisel or something to cut the keyway, and bored and tapped the motor shaft to take a bolt to draw the coupler onto the shaft and hold it. Said it took him about 8 hours to get it all done so he had to charge me, at $5/hour. I was happy to pay, especially since he finished it the day after I gave it to him.
Running it at 24V with just the switch, same as the other motor, speed seems about right, and this motor draws about half the current as the first motor in most situations. Probably would be better at 36-48V and with a controller when under heavy load, plus less belt slipping when I take off in 3rd if I could throttle it down, but I'll run it as is for a while.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Motor mounted.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I made a bracket to attach a snow blade to the bucket. Using some old batteries that were cold and low on charge, so it's moving a little slower than usual.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice!  (Babbling because I really just wanted to say "nice" but couldn't.)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Lovely little video and a nice bit of snow clearing.

I am really missing playing with my tractor, too much real life going on.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> OK, finally after about three months the guy I got to make a shaft and bearing holder setup got it done..... He was quite confident that the single bearing would provide enough support.


Since that didn't quite work out I'm trying a dual bearing setup for use in some future project:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/using-slot-drive-motor-144858.html


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

"Cool"! It looks like there is quite a bit of spring on the plow blade, but it seems to work well, and that is important if you hit a frozen rock or other immoveable obstacle under the snow. I could have used that machine here last week, but today it hit almost 60F and much of the 8-12 inches of snow has melted. So now we deal with mud!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, I could use a stiffer spring on the plow blade.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Putting the tractor to work:


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Green acres is the place for me, farm livin' is the live for me, land spreadin' out far and wide, keep Manhattan just give me that countryside!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Made some forks for the bucket to pick up logs, and my other tractor.


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