# 1999 Jeep Wrangler Sahara EV Conversion



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Hello everyone,

My wife and I are happy to join this amazing forum and want learn and share with like-minded people like you. We are so excited for our build and have been lucky to find the right Jeep!

Veronika grew up watching Gilmore Girls in Austria and always dreamed of owning the Jeep they drove in the show. It was a 1999/2000 Jeep Wrangler. We found one on CL in Idaho and flew there to pick it up back when it was still warm out...

















And the last time it had one of these stuck in it:










It is a good start as it has a few powertrain issues so we didn't feel so bad about pulling it out. That will be our Christmas vacation since Austria is locked down with COVID fear.

We are still debating the powertrain options. Probably down to a Model 3 RDU from Zero-EV with their gear reduction and LSD mounted transversely in the car to keep 4WD (but then it is full-time 4WD) or use a Cascadia Motion iM-225 + Torquebox into the stock NP231 so we can have 2H - 4H - 4 still... It will probably be all controlled using the AEM EV control system. I think the Tesla swap has the added "cool" factor, but the mechanical mounting aspect might be more complicated (plus the loss of the 2H option which should be more efficient). Still debating.

For batteries, we have a few Mach-E packs and those modules are either 4P8S or 4P7S:










Using the modules as-is will be tough to get the voltage up to where we need it (~400V) so we are exploring re-configuring the modules into 2P "slices". This is two cells in parallel with the cooling plate in-between. Multiple of these just stack together to make the modules.










This is halfway easy as the bus bar configuration and the modular construction of the modules make the slices have 2 cells each that are in parallel and you should be able to cut the bus bars here:










...and have then a 2P2S "slice". The challenge is reconnecting the bus bars on the other side of the module...










If anybody has some suggestions, we are all ears... We are exploring mechanical connections as well as spot welding new bus bars to the existing bus bars (to not cut the factory welds on the cell tabs).

We are taking the cells to Orion BMS so they can characterize the cells to hopefully make them available for other DIYers in the future. They are nice 65Ah LG cells.

Anyway, we are excited to start being a part of this community and to pull the current powertrain out and see how much space we really have. Veronika will be documenting the entire process (the good and the bad) on her channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/ElectrifiedVeronika

Cheers!
Don and Veronika


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The obvious alternative to reconfiguring the cells of a Mach-E extended range pack (4P and so 260 Ah) is to use a Mach-E standard range pack instead, which has eight 10S3P modules and two 8S3P modules (so 195 Ah)... but of course if you want to go all the way down to 130 Ah modification would still be needed and as you explained it's easier to modify the 4P components to 2P than to start with 3P.
(All of this assumes that the cells are 65 Ah)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> We are still debating the powertrain options. Probably down to a Model 3 RDU from Zero-EV with their gear reduction and LSD mounted transversely in the car to keep 4WD (but then it is full-time 4WD) or use a Cascadia Motion iM-225 + Torquebox


Many of us are familiar with the Cascadian Motion motor line, all models of which are based on BorgWarner (formerly Remy) HVH cores in various housing, but I didn't recognize the "iM-225" model name. This turns out to be an HVH250-115D motor core and CM200 inverter in an integrated housing. It's very tall because of the inverter on top; if it would go in the transmission tunnel it would be too tall, so would the plan be to cut out the top of the tunnel and expand into the under-dash space? A SS-250-115-D motor would presumably fit in the unmodified tunnel with the inverter mounted separately.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> The obvious alternative to reconfiguring the cells of a Mach-E extended range pack (4P and so 260 Ah) is to use a Mach-E standard range pack instead, which has eight 10S3P modules and two 8S3P modules (so 195 Ah)... but of course if you want to go all the way down to 130 Ah modification would still be needed and as you explained it's easier to modify the 4P components to 2P than to start with 3P.
> (All of this assumes that the cells are 65 Ah)


Thanks Brian. Good idea... I wasn't aware of the 3P configurations and none of the Mach-E packs I have seen had his configuration.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> SS-250-115-D


Great point. I think I was so fixated on the integrated solution that I forgot about this. This would be easier installation. Thanks for the reminder.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> ... I wasn't aware of the 3P configurations and none of the Mach-E packs I have seen had his configuration.


I guess either the extended range is more popular, or the drivers of those crash more. 

The standard range pack has only a single layer of modules, so it basically missing those top two (and so the case top is nearly flat), but the modules are not the same lengths. Like the extended range, the modules within a pack are all the same except a shorter pair in the front so that the case can taper in width. All modules of both packs all use the same cells, and their configurations are:

ext range long modules: 8S4P, so 32 cells
ext range short modules: 7S4P, so 28 cells
std range long modules: 10S3P, so 30 cells
std range short modules: 8S3P, so 24 cells
The overall configuration of the standard range battery is then 96S3P, versus the 94S4P of the extended range, so they have slightly different overall operating voltages.

If you use the standard range pack's modules without modification, and keep all of them to hit your desired voltage, you still end up with a lot of battery to fit into a TJ Wrangler!

The standard range pack will also be used in the E-Transit (EV version of Transit van and chassis-cab truck).

Munro did a teardown of the standard range pack. Some of the people there (especially Sandy Munro) are pretty clueless about batteries (in their first video about this battery they even though it was a different brand of module), but they show the internals well:


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Munro did a teardown of the standard range pack. Some of the people there (especially Sandy Munro) are pretty clueless about batteries (in their first video about this battery they even though it was a different brand of module), but they show the internals well:


Thanks for the info. Yeah, we know Sandy. Veronika visited him a few months ago. And yes, his videos are fun to watch sometimes when it comes to batteries. I have been in the EV battery testing industry for 15 years and Veronika has a PHD in Technical Physics and has a strong background on battery simulations and lifetime prediction models so we get the popcorn out when Sandy starts reading...I mean...talking about batteries.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Although when I watch that Munro video again, I see the exact same bus bar configurations that we found in the 4P8S and 4P7S modules we have...so I am not sure how they are able to use it in a 3P10S configuration...maybe this is the 3P8S module...and they just put blanks in for the missing cells? You can easily tell the anode and cathode side by the spot weld colors.










Although the label on his module in the video does say 6.3kWh where ours say 7.4 and 8.5 (if my vision is good enough)...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Although when I watch that Munro video again, I see the exact same bus bar configurations that we found in the 4P8S and 4P7S modules we have...so I am not sure how they are able to use it in a 3P10S configuration...maybe this is the 3P8S module...and they just put blanks in for the missing cells? You can easily tell the anode and cathode side by the spot weld colors.
> 
> View attachment 125426


I noticed that, too. My guess is that half of the locations where tabs are welded to the plates have two cell tabs overlapped (so three tabs for three cells on the two legs of the connector), while in the 4P modules every location has two cells tabs overlapped (so four tabs for four cells on the two legs of the connector).

I'm sure that there are no blank cell locations, as that would require a spacer to maintain compression in the stack, would waste a ridiculous amount of volume, and would make the two packs the same physical size.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Following this closely, as I'm aiming for a 1998 Wrangler Sport conversion.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> My wife and I are happy to join this amazing forum and want learn and share with like-minded people like you. We are so excited for our build and have been lucky to find the right Jeep!
> 
> ...


I assume you've seen this 2P reconfig?









Modified Bolt Pack for Tesla Cobra EV Race Car


Our initial Kia Soul EV Pack performed flawlessly and was able to power our Tesla drive unit at up to 375HP at the rear wheels. However, 27kW-hr was not enough for our 20 minute races. We knew this when we put it together, but when we designed the car in 2015, there are no other packs that...




www.diyelectriccar.com


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> I assume you've seen this 2P reconfig?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the LINK!!! This is exactly what we were thinking to do so this confirms our plans. This is perfect. I did not see this but so great. We can easily do this with the Mach-E modules. Just will take time to cut the bus bars...they are very hard and you have to do it in steps to not heat the cell tabs which heats the cells too much. I will even add connection points for the BMS to the new bus bars.

Thanks so much again for the link!!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You might be able to punch them.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

BTW...it's kind of funny... I would have called these Mach-E modules 8s4p and 7s4p, but the actual molded cover on the modules had the nomenclature reversed and I was actually thinking I've been saying it backward all these years...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> BTW...it's kind of funny... I would have called these Mach-E modules 8s4p and 7s4p, but the actual molded cover on the modules had the nomenclature reversed and I was actually thinking I've been saying it backward all these years...
> 
> View attachment 125511
> 
> ...


It has been done both ways; there is no authoritative definition of the notation, so neither is correct. I put the lowest level at the end, reflecting the normal practice for numeric values. We have debated this in this forum, probably a couple of years ago or more.

As long as the relevant number precedes the letter ("P" or "S"), it works.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

4 parallel of 8 series is very different than 8 series of 4 parallel.

The cell counts are the same. The pack voltage is the same. The max discharge is the same. But....

The first has two BMS connections, the latter has 9. The balancing capability is night & day.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> 4 parallel of 8 series is very different than 8 series of 4 parallel.
> 
> The cell counts are the same. The pack voltage is the same. The max discharge is the same. But....
> 
> The first has two BMS connections, the latter has 9. The balancing capability is night & day.


Yes, but this module has the groups of 4 cells each connected in parallel, then 7 or 8 of those groups connected in series; it has 8 (for 7S) or 9 (for 8S) BMS taps. I would write that as 7S4P or 8S4P, but the moulded-in marking is "4P7S" and "4P8S". There's no question about the physical configuration of the module, which follows the industry-standard practice for EV battery configuration; the discussion was only about the unusual notation used in the embossed markings... perhaps designed by one of those marketing people. 

By the way, four parallel strings each of 8 cells in series would have 45 BMS taps (in 4 groups of 9 per string), not just 2 - I assume that was just a typo.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So, not:

n parallel of m series,

but:

n parallel in m series


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Yeah, like I said, I would have always said 8s4p but then when I saw the molded plastic piece...I though more about it. Then I was thinking that actually 4p8s makes a lot of sense and it better describes the module and pack from a BMS perspective. First you have 4 cells in parallel that you then connect in series... Then the full pack is really 4pXs... 

As mentioned, 4 parallel and 8 in series is very different from 8 in series, and then 4 in parallel...from a BMS and balancing perspective.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

_Arrrgh_
It's just a notation issue; there's no question how these modules are configured or whether it is the most appropriate configuration. Most of us normally use a notation with the lowest level of detail at the end, the way numbers work most to least significant digits). What these modules have moulded into the cover has the lowest level of detail at the beginning; that may be LG Chem's standard notation, but it's hard to tell because it's hard to find genuine LG Chem documentation at the module level.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

The ICE powertrain removal begins... 

My wife, who has a PHD in technical physics and a strong background in EV batteries, but who has basically never turned a wrench on a real car, had a dirty day yesterday draining the oil and coolant and removing the radiator.

Today is the fuel system and hopefully the engine...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Big day today and we accomploshed our goal of getting the engine and transmission out before 2022!


















Timelapse: 








Dropbox - File Deleted


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Looks pretty clean!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The rugs make your shop so...welcoming 😂


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## mons2b (Nov 17, 2015)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> My wife and I are happy to join this amazing forum and want learn and share with like-minded people like you. We are so excited for our build and have been lucky to find the right Jeep!
> 
> ...


Mach e are already getting wrecked and available as spares? Seems like they only came out. What did the batteries cost?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mons2b said:


> Mach e are already getting wrecked and available as spares? Seems like they only came out.


There are already crashed Tesla Model S Plaids being salvaged. Nearly the day any model of vehicle starts leaving dealerships, some idiot crashes one. To the end of October 2021, Ford had apparently sold 21,703 Mach-E's in the U.S., so more than a few will have been crashed.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ The Mach-E's are still pretty rare and fetch a pretty penny at salvage. 

Salvage yards have been charging higher than new prices for the rear DU.

We're still a couple of years out, imo, so keep circling over the carcasses.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> ^^ The Mach-E's are still pretty rare and fetch a pretty penny at salvage.


Yes, "available" and "cheap and plentiful" are two different things.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Mach-E doesn't have the horsepower of a Tesla to the point where an accountant can drive it without losing it. 

Couple that with the crazy labor and tools needed to repair a Tesla (it's not designed for repair), and the Fords just don't get written off as much.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

How long is the wait for the Ford ecrate motor? I believe it's the same as in Mach-E. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You need to order it. Ask your Ford parts guy/gal.

Mid March if you order from Summit Racing.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> How long is the wait for the Ford ecrate motor? I believe it's the same as in Mach-E.


It is the Mach-E rear drive unit (not just the motor, but the transaxle as well). You could buy it as a Mach-E replacement part, or a "crate" item for the aftermarket, or as salvage. The problem with buying a new one is that Ford doesn't include the inverter, and even if you have an inverter Ford apparently provides no support for application outside of a Mach-E; it's not like some crate engines for which there is a control package available.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Mach-E doesn't have the horsepower of a Tesla to the point where an accountant can drive it without losing it.
> 
> Couple that with the crazy labor and tools needed to repair a Tesla (it's not designed for repair), and the Fords just don't get written off as much.


I don't think write-off crashes of Teslas have much to do with power - more likely not looking where they're going and expecting the car to drive for them. But yes, Tesla's greater opposition to repair (compared to Ford) probably contributes to more write-offs.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You're guessing. You think.

They have the same damage profile as the new Corvette Stingray. Too much power.

As a pilot, you have to get a power endorsement past a certain amount of horsepower. Driving a car, anybody can hop into 600HP.

My crashed P85 was a classical example of a high horsepower wipeout. The auction sites are full of them.

Sadly Rich Rebuilds and the solar storage crowd have totally f'd the pricing on those cars now and eBay sellers have fixed the pricing where the solar idiots are happy.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The rugs make your shop so...welcoming 😂


😂🤣😂 They came with the house... So, instead of throwing them away...why not use them for the shop/garage... Makes dropping things less costly... 🙃 We use the curtains as drop cloths for cleaning and painting... 😁


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

mons2b said:


> Mach e are already getting wrecked and available as spares? Seems like they only came out. What did the batteries cost?


Both my wife and I are in the EV battery industry and we helped a company work out a recycle plan for these batteries when they do come in from scrapyards. I.e. when to disassemble and try and resell, when to scrap, and then the best business plan for those two options. And they gave us a couple as part of the payment. Definitely helping with the price of the conversion...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Now that the engine, trans, and related components were out (but not yet the A/C and fuel tank/lines), we wanted to get a quick estimate on the weight difference between ICE and BEV. Just to see if we are in the ballpark or if major upgrades to the suspension is needed. So, we weighed everything that we took off:










So, rough estimate is we removed 310kg of stuff from the Jeep. We then added up the weight of the e-motor, inverter, and the desired battery capacity (by weighing the stock 8.5 kWh Mach-E module and multiplying up to the needed voltage and capacity (~450VDC & 60kWh) and calculated 301kg going in. So, we are in the ballpark!! We still have a few things to come out and we also have battery boxes, battery cooling, cables, etc... But, at least it isn't like 2 or 3x the weight or something.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

That's a fantastic list. I've been trying to estimate these weights by googling since I don't have the donor car yet. I was off by about 50lb for the engine. Presumably (obviously?) these are weights after fluids were drained? The 4.0L takes 6 quarts of oil. Not sure about the total quantity of coolant.

Now the major mystery for me is how to pack the batteries front to back to maintain the approximate weight ratio. In my case I'm estimating about a 60/40 split in battery weight between the front and the back to maintain the TJ's nearly perfect split front/back weight ratio.

Edit: I take it you're keeping the radiator for active cooling?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> That's a fantastic list. I've been trying to estimate these weights by googling since I don't have the donor car yet. I was off by about 50lb for the engine. Presumably (obviously?) these are weights after fluids were drained? The 4.0L takes 6 quarts of oil. Not sure about the total quantity of coolant.
> 
> Now the major mystery for me is how to pack the batteries front to back to maintain the approximate weight ratio. In my case I'm estimating about a 60/40 split in battery weight between the front and the back to maintain the TJ's nearly perfect split front/back weight ratio.
> 
> Edit: I take it you're keeping the radiator for active cooling?


Yes, the fluids were all drained. Coolant was about a 1/2 a Home Depot bucket...and then a bit more when the engine tilted when we were pulling it out. 😆 It may still have some in there...but the hoses were all off.

As for the radiator...I will probably go with two smaller radiators...and have two separate cooling loops...one for the battery and one for the e-motor and inverter. I may want to condition the batteries with active heat for the cold weather. But, yes, there will be active heating/cooling.

As for the weight split...I am also really hoping to fit half the battery in the fuel tank area and half in the engine bay. If I need a bit more I may try and pack a few smaller modules under the middle of the car or behind the rear seat as a last resort.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes, the fluids were all drained. Coolant was about a 1/2 a Home Depot bucket...and then a bit more when the engine tilted when we were pulling it out. 😆 It may still have some in there...but the hoses were all off.
> 
> As for the radiator...I will probably go with two smaller radiators...and have two separate cooling loops...one for the battery and one for the e-motor and inverter. I may want to condition the batteries with active heat for the cold weather. But, yes, there will be active heating/cooling.
> 
> As for the weight split...I am also really hoping to fit half the battery in the fuel tank area and half in the engine bay. If I need a bit more I may try and pack a few smaller modules under the middle of the car or behind the rear seat as a last resort.


Do you find that with the exhaust out there is a bit more width near the gas tank? I have the measurements of the fuel tank as roughly 34" wide by 18" deep by 12" tall, and was hoping that with the tailpipe deleted there were a few more inches of width. Beyond that the shocks seem to keep from moving any more forward in a battery box. I've thought about trying to cram some modules where the muffler used to live, but there's not a ton of height there. But yeah, it'd be ideal to keep any batteries out of the passenger area. The engine bay seems tricky with the narrowed nose of the bay and the fact that where I live I do want to keep or re-engineer A/C.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very interested in any/all measurements or pictures of the engine bay with the ICE removed. I'm trying to CAD as much of the design as I can, but unlike Zero-EV I don't expect to be able to laser scan the chassis.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Shocks are a problem, not a constraint, relative to having to put batteries in undesirable places. They can be relocated/reconfigured...we're talking Jeep, not F1 suspension performance here.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This knocks the Model 3 DU out of contention. Is the Cascadia im-225 what you're going with, then?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very interested in any/all measurements or pictures of the engine bay with the ICE removed. I'm trying to CAD as much of the design as I can, but unlike Zero-EV I don't expect to be able to laser scan the chassis.


You don't need a fancy laser scanner - there are much cheaper 3D scanning tools. I haven't used any of them, but SuperfastMatt has a YouTube video on them... in his usual style, if you like that: How To 3D Scan Your Car


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> Do you find that with the exhaust out there is a bit more width near the gas tank? I have the measurements of the fuel tank as roughly 34" wide by 18" deep by 12" tall, and was hoping that with the tailpipe deleted there were a few more inches of width. Beyond that the shocks seem to keep from moving any more forward in a battery box. I've thought about trying to cram some modules where the muffler used to live, but there's not a ton of height there. But yeah, it'd be ideal to keep any batteries out of the passenger area. The engine bay seems tricky with the narrowed nose of the bay and the fact that where I live I do want to keep or re-engineer A/C.


I will go out and make some measurements in a few hours after we shovel snow and hit up groceries... I will post them here...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> If it's not too much trouble, I'd be very interested in any/all measurements or pictures of the engine bay with the ICE removed. I'm trying to CAD as much of the design as I can, but unlike Zero-EV I don't expect to be able to laser scan the chassis.


We'll be doing a scan of the engine bay with my iPhone in the next few days for my Fusion360 work and can share that. We also might be getting it laser scanned for a marketing activity later in the month, but this is not confirmed. Either way, we will share what we get.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> This knocks the Model 3 DU out of contention. Is the Cascadia im-225 what you're going with, then?


Yes...probably the iM-225 unless the integrated inverter causes a clearance problem. But it is a really nice compete package... Now that the engine and trans is out, I can make a CAD model (Cardboard Aided Design) of the iM-225 and see how well it fits in trans tunnel... But, I also wouldn't mind too much it it was in the engine bay a bit to show it off as it is really a beautiful centerpiece.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I just spotted this, which may be perfect for 4WD conversions and for 52international's project.

Since you two are industry-connected, maybe you can have information provided, and units released for purchase via distributor, to this community.

Borg-Warner eAWD unit here: Electric Drive Modules - BorgWarner

I can't find any information on it anywhere. Maybe Brian can ferret out something.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> I just spotted this, which may be perfect for 4WD conversions and for 52international's project.
> 
> Since you two are industry-connected, maybe you can have information provided, and units released for purchase via distributor, to this community.
> 
> ...


The BorgWarner range is getting better, but unless it is offered through their Cascadia Motion division, I don't think it's going to be available to an individual purchaser; these products are all targeted at companies who will commit to buying hundreds or thousands for a production vehicle, justifying the corresponding technical support and a production run. We have at least one Cascadia Motion person in the forum - perhaps some information could be available there?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

What a difference a few months makes...

November:










Today:









Time to remove the dash...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So, after many, many screws and bolts, countless connector disconnects, a horribly wired alarm system, and a nest of some kind, she is ready for some deep cleaning. In the end I figured it is just easier to pull all the wires and start fresh...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> Do you find that with the exhaust out there is a bit more width near the gas tank? I have the measurements of the fuel tank as roughly 34" wide by 18" deep by 12" tall, and was hoping that with the tailpipe deleted there were a few more inches of width.


Sorry for the delay...tried to take some pics but they didn't turn out well (I attached them anyway)...  You probably have a bit more than 34" except for the angled support brackets... The max width (the pic is cut off...sorry...) was around ~37.5~37.75" So, it depends on where you mount the battery. Distance between shocks was 36"

I will try my iPhone scanner tomorrow of the fuel tank are and the engine compartment now that I have everything out...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Hmm, interesting. A bit less than I expected, especially in the front--rear dimension. Very tight if I'm trying to get VDA355 modules in front to back + associated cooling connections and the actual battery box around it. I did like the density of the LG iPace(/Audi) modules, but may need to rethink those. Plus the frame rail getting in the way on the sides as it curves back down near the wheels.

What have your thoughts been so far on battery placement, out of curiosity?


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

... Might be able to get 5 between the shocks underneath that cross reinforcement. The length works out there. Still need to find room for 5-9 more elsewhere in the vehicle. Or choose a different battery module to break down into managable cells and rebuild a pack from there. Well, silver lining is that there are nooks and crannies in there to stick the contactors, BMS slave, fuse, connections and the like.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...did a iPhone 3D scan of the fuel tank area and the "engine" compartment and now put in the main components for a rough layout plan.

The idea is to make (2) custom modules from the Mach-E packs plus have a third 8.5kWh stock Mach-E module in the fuel tank area with the edges of one of the custom modules and one of the stock modules peaking through the jeep floor. This would have the capacity of (4) stock 8.5kWh modules.

We would use a plexiglass cover on the top to highlight the batteries when we lift up the rear seat. Here's some screencaps of the model:

















This one has the bottom battery hidden to see the other batteries missing the frame cross member:









Then, up front, we would have (3) "stock" 8.5kWh modules (giving a total of 7) up front, behind the radiators, with the OBC & DC/DC next and then the Cascadia Motion iM225 + 3:1 gearbox...

















Of course, the devil is in the details, but this gets us a start...


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

brian_ said:


> You don't need a fancy laser scanner - there are much cheaper 3D scanning tools. I haven't used any of them, but SuperfastMatt has a YouTube video on them... in his usual style, if you like that: How To 3D Scan Your Car


Superfast Matt has a new video about scanners: iPhone 3D Scanning vs Professional 3D Scanner

It looks like the iPhone worked well enough for this purpose.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The phone scan is awesome! Maybe start a thread or do a video on the process thru placing CAD models?

The plexiglas cover is not a good idea for an under-seat battery case. You want a fire barrier there to give an occupant enough time to get out after the car comes to a stop if a cell lights off.


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The phone scan is awesome! Maybe start a thread or do a video on the process thru placing CAD models?
> 
> The plexiglas cover is not a good idea for an under-seat battery case. You want a fire barrier there to give an occupant enough time to get out after the car comes to a stop if a cell lights off.


I am just learning how to do this now but have learned a bit already how to get something "usable" and also how to clean it up. It is amazing how much it scans. One thing I learned from the Superfast matt video was to try and use the front LIDAR instead of the back for more detail parts... But, for the rough layout, this was enough...

And we can discuss how much additional time you would have/need between a plexiglass cover vs. a metal one in relation to how much time it take to stop and jump out...but we would probably have a second, metal cover to go on top of the plexiglass cover for during use and then take it off when the Jeep is on display.


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

One question is can you reorient the Mach-E modules safely. We had another discussion similar to that for the iPace modules, which can't be upside down.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> One question is can you reorient the Mach-E modules safely. We had another discussion similar to that for the iPace modules, which can't be upside down.


I might be concerned about putting them on end, as the weight of the cells would press on the cells below them, but that's probably not the orientation being considered.
Structurally, I can't see a problem with putting them "on edge" (longest dimension still horizontal, but the shortest dimension horizontal instead of vertical) or upside-down, but the question (as previously discussed) would be whether there could be enough clamping force for heat transfer.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

asymptonic said:


> One question is can you reorient the Mach-E modules safely. We had another discussion similar to that for the iPace modules, which can't be upside down.


They can't be upside down unless the cooling plate flips with it. There's no other reason I can think of why they can't be.


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

That'd be nice if true. I was wanting to stick a cooling plate between two iPace (VDA355) modules, with the bottom module upside down, but Zero-EV seemed to imply that was a no-no.

Edit: of course, their videos are pretty sparse on info at times. I wonder if they merely meant you shouldn't mount the cooling plate to the wrong side of the module, which I suppose you could do if you weren't thinking since the plate would "fit" the opposite side.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> That'd be nice if true. I was wanting to stick a cooling plate between two iPace (VDA355) modules, with the bottom module upside down, but Zero-EV seemed to imply that was a no-no.
> 
> Edit: of course, their videos are pretty sparse on info at times. I wonder if they merely meant you shouldn't mount the cooling plate to the wrong side of the module, which I suppose you could do if you weren't thinking since the plate would "fit" the opposite side.


In the Zero EV store, the cooling plates (single and double) are described as accommodating up to two (single) or four (double) modules, so they are clearly okay with a module on each side. I would ask them if modules on both sides is only allowed with the plate in a vertical plane (they certainly do that), or if a horizontal plate with modules on top and clinging to the bottom is okay as well.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

asymptonic said:


> One question is can you reorient the Mach-E modules safely. We had another discussion similar to that for the iPace modules, which can't be upside down.


As long as the cold plate flips with the module, and you can maintain contact with it, I don't see any problem having them upside down, with iPace or any other LG cell. You "can't" flip the module for contact cooling reasons....but "can't" is a challenge word to me, unlike "shan't". I can't think of any other reason.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

brian_ said:


> In the Zero EV store, the cooling plates (single and double) are described as accommodating up to two (single) or four (double) modules, so they are clearly okay with a module on each side. I would ask them if modules on both sides is only allowed with the plate in a vertical plane (they certainly do that), or if a horizontal plate with modules on top and clinging to the bottom is okay as well.


We don't need their permission, we need to understand WHY they said that and what they were thinking that made the restriction so we can design around the problem, if there is one.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> We don't need their permission, we need to understand WHY they said that and what they were thinking that made the restriction so we can design around the problem, if there is one.


Right - I meant allowed by technical considerations, not their rules.


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Indeed, I understood that modules can live on both sides of the cooling plate. Trying to dig up where I read that they only want two orientations, cooling interface side down, or sideways...

This isn't the only place I saw it, but: 



 implies 4 modules only on the side. <shrug>

Agree though I can think of no physical or chemical reason they can't be in any orientation that doesn't change cell compression.


----------



## mpgMike (Nov 9, 2021)

Just one thought, you would want any trapped air to rise and escape. Horizontal passages may trap air which has a lower thermal density than a liquid coolant. If flipped up-side-down, inlets and outlets should probably reflect inlet at the bottom and outlet at the top to release any trapped air. That's the only orientation consideration I could fathom.


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Just FYI...my wife was interviewed yesterday by Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all and discussed the Jeep project a few times...


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mpgMike said:


> Just one thought, you would want any trapped air to rise and escape. Horizontal passages may trap air which has a lower thermal density than a liquid coolant. If flipped up-side-down, inlets and outlets should probably reflect inlet at the bottom and outlet at the top to release any trapped air. That's the only orientation consideration I could fathom.


If the plate is horizontal it won't matter to the fluids in the plate whether there are modules on the top, the bottom, or both. If there really is a top versus bottom face of the plate (it certainly doesn't look like it) just use the plate the right way up... it still won't matter which face or faces modules are on.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

asymptonic said:


> Indeed, I understood that modules can live on both sides of the cooling plate. Trying to dig up where I read that they only want two orientations, cooling interface side down, or sideways...
> 
> This isn't the only place I saw it, but:
> 
> ...


As long as the cell faces are vertical, compression is unaffected. Horizontal means the bottom cell is compressed by all cells above it while the top cell is not compressed at all.

"Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch" - Wile E. Coyote


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Just FYI...my wife was interviewed yesterday by Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all and discussed the Jeep project a few times...


Yeah, you definitely "married up" 😂


----------



## mpgMike (Nov 9, 2021)

I find likes attract when it comes to successful marriages. My guess, you didn't "marry up", but your wife is an equal. I watched the video. I'm impressed with the work you're doing on the Jeep, the engineering-math-physics, and I'm impressed with your wife's interests and level of knowledge. I suggest you and your wife are both awesome folks with great aspirations, and of like mind.


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Oh, on your removed weight list I didn't see the fuel tank? Got a rough empty weight estimate on that?


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> Oh, on your removed weight list I didn't see the fuel tank? Got a rough empty weight estimate on that?


Yeah...we forgot that... It was not too heavy...in the 10-12kg range with the shield around it...


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Just a small update...nothing too much EV related. After a bit of work trying to get the balance reasonable and the thing mounted securely, we got the Jeep ready for BBQ ;-) It will be really nice to plan the layout of components without the need to lay under it...


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Nice! Never seen one of those. What do you call it and how much does it cost?


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Just a basic auto rotisserie...

This is the one I got. I couldn't fit a full lift in my garage so this was the next option... I would maybe do a few things different if I did it again (was my first time using one).






Redline Automotive Auto Restoration Rotisserie | Redline Stands


Looking for the best Automotive Rotisserie for sales online? We got you covered! Our Redline Automotive Auto Restoration Rotisserie (Model: ROT3000-LD), is now available in Redline Stands. Order yours today! Free shipping.




www.redlinestands.com


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> Indeed, I understood that modules can live on both sides of the cooling plate. Trying to dig up where I read that they only want two orientations, cooling interface side down, or sideways...
> 
> This isn't the only place I saw it, but:
> 
> ...


I asked ZeroEV about this, and they said that the double plate could be used in a horizontal position with modules on both the bottom and the top... but of the modules they sell, only the LG Chem modules (not the CALB modules) could be used in the inverted (on the bottom of the plate) position. Here's the key part of their response:


> the LG can run upside down but the CALB can not. There is no concern but when we have ran the LG upside down instead of using bolts we have used threaded bar that’s goes the hole way through the plate then have nuts to hold the modules down.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Makes sense:










Their cooling plates are 16mm thick. If mounting two modules with one upside down, a bolt would only be able to engage at most 8mm (and would likely interfere with the opposite side's bolt so you wouldn't get proper thread tension). I didn't realize until checking the CAD again that the battery mounting holes were straight through. But running threaded rod all the way through is simpler and safer. Wonder what about the CALB design hates being inverted.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Just a basic auto rotisserie...
> 
> This is the one I got. I couldn't fit a full lift in my garage so this was the next option... I would maybe do a few things different if I did it again (was my first time using one).
> 
> ...


Only rated for 3000 lb 😬


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah, noticed that too, but the weight of a TJ is around 3200-3400lb without removing damn near everything as D&V has done. I wouldn't use it to actually mount the batteries, but up until that point it should be fine.


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> Yeah, noticed that too, but the weight of a TJ is around 3200-3400lb without removing damn near everything as D&V has done. I wouldn't use it to actually mount the batteries, but up until that point it should be fine.


Yeah...I knew it would only be good for when everything was out for the clean-up and then the mock-up of the stuff. I plan on 3D printing a lot of the components for the layout activities so it should be good for that. One we start mounting the real components, it goes on the ground again.


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

We published the first video of our Jeep conversion series this morning:


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Children, children please do not use basalt, cinder blocks to hold up a vehicle! This is Auto shop 101 basic safety stuff: 
Is putting the wheels on concrete blocks safer or safe as using jackstands?









6 Ways to Stay Safe in Your Garage


Working on your own car can be easy and fun, but it's got some potential dangers if you don't use common sense. Here's the right way to wrench -- without getting hurt.




www.popularmechanics.com





Sturdy wood blocks are a much safer to use.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Oh wow...even worse than setting the car frame on them...jackstands on cinderblocks.

That will fail so instantly at the slightest impact that your nerves won't register your body splat in your brain. Painless, milliseconds, life insurance payout.

Might as well use a masonary chisel on the blocks before use 😬


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Yes...I know. We were never under the jeep when it was on blocks and was just there to get it to the level of the stand. But completely understand the warning and appreciate it!!


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Meanwhile, she's standing in the engine bay in the video with four cinder blocks visible at her feet holding the vehicle in the air. The blocks could catastrophically fail the way you loaded them - you don't have to be "under it" to have an artery severed.

You luckily, very luckily with using jackstands on cinder blocks, got away with it. Someone watching your "teaching" video might not.

If you're going to teach or show practices, they should not be negligent under the guise of being an expert. Your video is out there, not pulled, not edited, no warning about what's shown being a bad idea...then you have the problem of those who already watched tye video - how do you fix that?

Cinder blocks with jackstands on them is begging for a lawsuit if someone gets injured or killed after a PhD "expert" in materials science showed them how it's done.

Welcome to America...


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Meanwhile, she's standing in the engine bay in the video with four cinder blocks visible at her feet holding the vehicle in the air. The blocks could catastrophically fail the way you loaded them - you don't have to be "under it" to have an artery severed.
> 
> You luckily, very luckily with using jackstands on cinder blocks, got away with it. Someone watching your "teaching" video might not.
> 
> ...


Got it. Thanks...


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

A fifth Project Category, in addition to the four mentioned in the video, might be to have the batteries in this vehicle tied into the grid and/or a photovoltaic system. Tesla has the Powerwall energy storage system, I would call a vehicle based system a Powercar. I'm not sure how much you are going to use this car. As you have found out, these vehicles are not the most comfortable ones for a daily or long haul driver. If this vehicle is going to be parked a lot, it seems to me it would be a good candidate to be a Powercar. Recently, I've talked to people with conversions like this that wished they had thought more about these power back-up/ grid tie potentials from the start of their projects.

For starters I guess Incorporating a tie-in system would inform the battery voltage you might use, what chargers you might use, charge/discharge control systems, and your house wiring. Any thoughts?


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> A fifth Project Category, in addition to the four mentioned in the video, might be to have the batteries in this vehicle tied into the grid and/or a photovoltaic system. Tesla has the Powerwall energy storage system, I would call a vehicle based system a Powercar. I'm not sure how much you are going to use this car. As you have found out, these vehicles are not the most comfortable ones for a daily or long haul driver. If this vehicle is going to be parked a lot, it seems to me it would be a good candidate to be a Powercar. Recently, I've talked to people with conversions like this that wished they had thought more about these power back-up/ grid tie potentials from the start of their projects.
> 
> For starters I guess Incorporating a tie-in system would inform the battery voltage you might use, what chargers you might use, charge/discharge control systems, and your house wiring. Any thoughts?


 You are actually talking about phase 2...this is part of the plan already. The same place we are getting the Mach-E modules from has a 80kwh stationary pack they we will get at the same time to start. We will then tie this into a used solar array we will mount on the house. We are actually setting up the solar panels this weekend with a small inverter and a Arduino data logging system to see how much sunlight we actually get here in the winter in Wisconsin so we can plan the complete system. One of the videos we are planning will cover all of that.

The charger we have right now is charge only but we are already in contact with several companies that support V2G but we were waiting also a bit longer for more details on the V2G requirements for the F-150 Lightning I have a reservation order for.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I agree that a rarely-used vehicle is the best candidate for V2G, the connection of the vehicle's battery as storage for stationary local use or the utility grid.



electro wrks said:


> Tesla has the Powerwall energy storage system, I would call a vehicle based system a Powercar.


Since Tesla is not the only company doing V2G, and not even the leader in the area, a Tesla-specific name is strange. "V2G" works...



electro wrks said:


> For starters I guess Incorporating a tie-in system would inform the battery voltage you might use, what chargers you might use, charge/discharge control systems, and your house wiring. Any thoughts?


Yes, except that battery voltage is only indirectly affected, by battery voltages supported by the bi-directional chargers available; otherwise, battery voltage doesn't matter.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

brian_ said:


> Yes, except that battery voltage is only indirectly affected, by battery voltages supported by the bi-directional chargers available; otherwise, battery voltage doesn't matter.


Your statement doesn't make sense. If you wanted to use bidirectional charging, wouldn't you choose a voltage that works with available chargers? So, voltage does matter.

There is also a consideration where the Powercar is used as a secondary battery to a primary (usually a fixed, home based) battery. It sounds like D&V are considering such a system. It could be that the primary and secondary batteries having the same voltage(or even better, within some range), would have efficiency, simplicity, and other advantages with a safe and proper DC to DC connection between the two.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Writing of batteries. There is an ongoing debate on the forum about battery calendar life. This is a big concern with DIY conversions. Often, the batteries used in conversions are from sources where the age of the batteries and the remaining calendar life is unknown. Also, using or more specifically not using batteries in little used conversions could be considered a poor use of a potentially limited resource. A resource that is going to extremely important in the work to limit climate change.

As battery experts, what's the latest on battery calendar life? Are there studies and information available on the subject? I know it could vary widely with the chemistry, quality of construction, manufacturer, uses, etc. Any information you could share on this subject would be appreciated. Maybe you could start a new thread about this.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What do you mean "calendar life"?

Sitting on a shelf?


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

remy_martian said:


> What do you mean "calendar life"?
> 
> Sitting on a shelf?


You tell us Mr. expert. You can Google it just as easily as we can. Maybe it's this: https://batterywali.com/Calendar-life-VS-Cycle-life.php

Any anecdotal info from people's experience?


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What do YOU mean by calendar life? Charge cycling or no? How deep are the discharges? Span of temperature excursions and how many cycles?

A Lithium battery pack from an EV has about 40 years of life in it, maybe more, before it needs to be recycled.

2012 Teslas are going strong after a decade. Then someone will repurpose them to EV conversions. Eventually, stationary grid storage becomes the retirement home where they're gently treated until they're deemed dead. 50% initial capacity? 25%? Those batteries will be cheap. They have to be because V2G puts any business model using wrecked car batteries as grid storage into bankruptcy. Early days.

You have an agenda here that's obvious. You'll get your grid storage batteries...after all the mobility uses are done with them....including V2G.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

40 years of life???? Lmao 🤣


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Yes. 20 in the car, 20 as solar backup which is an extremely mild load draw, can be in a heated room, and you DGAF about buying a 30% depleted car pack/module.

At least 40 years.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Our next video is out where we discussed some of the options for the e-powertrain and which one we selected...


----------



## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Nice video!

I'm a native cheesehead. Just flew into Chicago, driving up to my parents house in WI. You need that awesome heater, the jet bridge froze up, we're all waiting.

Is there enough heat from the electric motor to assist for the cabin?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

52International said:


> Nice video!
> 
> I'm a native cheesehead. Just flew into Chicago, driving up to my parents house in WI. You need that awesome heater, the jet bridge froze up, we're all waiting.
> 
> ...


Talking with the supplier, they use 10% as the calculation for heat rejection for their e-motor/inverter combination... Since the e-motor/inverter is rated at 110kW cont. 225 peak, you could have a good amount of heat that could be applied to the heating system during driving. But you also have a lot of thermal mass and it doesn't help if it takes 45 minutes to get it to warm, etc... So, yes, one option could be to use this heat also with a supplemental heater to use this heat energy in the cold for the cabin/defogging the windows. 

We are still sorting out the details and doing the thermal modeling. We may find that a PTC cabin heater is still the best route for useable heat in the cabin and a liquid heater for the batteries during charging....but that is boring ;-)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Talking with the supplier, they use 10% as the calculation for heat rejection for their e-motor/inverter combination... Since the e-motor/inverter is rated at 110kW cont. 225 peak, you could have a good amount of heat that could be applied to the heating system during driving...


Sure, but your not using that much power continuously. If you're using 300 Wh/km (480 Wh/mile), and averaging 60 km/h (40 MPH), you're using 18 kW... and getting less than 2 kW of heat if you capture it all. Enough for many conditions, and in places enough for all winter on average, but not enough to warm up the vehicle in cold weather.


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Sure, but your not using that much power continuously. If you're using 300 Wh/km (480 Wh/mile), and averaging 60 km/h (40 MPH), you're using 18 kW... and getting less than 2 kW of heat if you capture it all. Enough for many conditions, and in places enough for all winter on average, but not enough to warm up the vehicle in cold weather.


Yes, I know... But I can ride the brakes ;-) I also was joking with them to create a special "heat mode" of operation which would run the inverter in a way to generate the most heat possible to purposely heat the cooling fluid...but I guess this is not in the best interest of the warranty of their products...  He did say it was an interesting idea...but def. not a priority.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I think we'd all be interested in you showing how you're doing this thermal modeling of the Jeep cabin.

Seems a lot simpler to just toss a thermostatically-controlled 8kW PTC into the cabin and let God sort out the details.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes, I know... But I can ride the brakes ;-) I also was joking with them to create a special "heat mode" of operation which would run the inverter in a way to generate the most heat possible to purposely heat the cooling fluid...but I guess this is not in the best interest of the warranty of their products...  He did say it was an interesting idea...but def. not a priority.



Tesla heats the coolant using traction motor stator current to heat the motor windings and the motor loop coolant. Hot wires don't affect vehicle reliability, as you astutely noted...


----------



## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

I have resigned to just using a diesel air heater. They are cheap and have been getting rave reviews in the 4x4 community. They are super efficient and quiet. It does suck having to burn fossil fuels but it's better than freezing. I think they can run on kerosene too which is a little cleaner and less stinky. There are also diesel water heaters that do just that and you could plumb them into the car's heater core for a super clean setup unfortunately the water heaters are considerably more expensive.

Diesel air heater: https://amzn.to/3AWqJ7D
Diesel water heater: https://amzn.to/3ulZ3I3


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

...a diesel heater has possibilities for "rolling coal" at pickup truck a-holes 😂

Some have outright hate for EV's, a strange fetish/passion almost as if daddy owned an oil refinery. 

I had one in a Ram 2500 give me a "libtard" dirty look at a light, I laughed at him, then his lizard-brain felt insulted & tried to out-accelerate me to cut me off to coal roll my car. That's when his tiny manhood shrunk to looking like he just came out of a cold lake after I left him in the dust and two cars between us.

_All_ objects tinier than they appear in the mirror 😂


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

We had the lucky opportunity of having the Jeep professionally laser scanned to help with the planning of the conversion.

I am amazed at the detail of the scans...


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Looks like you decided to use LG Chem modules. Which car are they from?


----------



## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Those are the mach-E modules I believe.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> Those are the mach-E modules I believe.


Yes, as described in the very first post and discussed through the thread (and up to post #91 that was still the plan), they are the modules from the larger of the two Mach-E batteries.


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"We haven't decided whether to use...", iirc


----------



## EV-FAN (May 17, 2021)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes...probably the iM-225 unless the integrated inverter causes a clearance problem. But it is a really nice compete package... Now that the engine and trans is out, I can make a CAD model (Cardboard Aided Design) of the iM-225 and see how well it fits in trans tunnel... But, I also wouldn't mind too much it it was in the engine bay a bit to show it off as it is really a beautiful centerpiece.


The Cascadia products are super nice! Great company. Did you end up going with the iM-225?


----------



## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

EV-FAN said:


> The Cascadia products are super nice! Great company. Did you end up going with the iM-225?


Yes... We are getting the iM-225 with their integrated 3:1 speed reducer as well as their OBC/DCDC... I have known Larry from Cascadia for 10 years at least...back when he was doing his own thing at RM.


----------



## EV-FAN (May 17, 2021)

That’s awesome! That sounds incredible!


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes... We are getting the iM-225 with their integrated 3:1 speed reducer as well as their OBC/DCDC...


In Cascadia Motion's integrated products an iM is a motor with inverter, and no gearbox; an iDM is a motor with transaxle (with 8.28:1 ratio) and inverter. They have a 3.09:1 offset reduction gearbox (SR-309), but it's not sold as an integrated assembly with a motor, although of course it's intended for use with their motors and even shares oil with the motor. Can I assume that you are getting an iM-225 plus a SR-309?

_edit:_
I see in one of the CAD renderings that the SR-309 does appear to be used. That offsets the output to one side... what is it connecting to?


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I seriously doubt an iM is going to fit in the tunnel. Motor, probably. Motor+inverter? Doubt it.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> In Cascadia Motion's integrated products an iM is a motor with inverter, and no gearbox; an iDM is a motor with transaxle (with 8.28:1 ratio) and inverter. They have a 3.09:1 offset reduction gearbox (SR-309), but it's not sold as an integrated assembly with a motor, although of course it's intended for use with their motors and even shares oil with the motor. Can I assume that you are getting an iM-225 plus a SR-309?
> 
> _edit:_
> I see in one of the CAD renderings that the SR-309 does appear to be used. That offsets the output to one side... what is it connecting to?


Yes...the iM-225+SR-309. They call it an "integrated package" when discussing it with them. The output of this is going to the stock transfer case input, which is then connected to the front and rear differentials, so we still have 2WH-4WH-N-4WL possibilities with the transfer case.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes...the iM-225+SR-309. They call it an "integrated package" when discussing it with them. The output of this is going to the stock transfer case input, which is then connected to the front and rear differentials, so we still have 2WH-4WH-N-4WL possibilities with the transfer case.


Thanks.
The SR-309 output is offset (to either side, your choice) and the transfer case input is normally on-centre. How are you planning to handle that? And will the gearbox and transfer case be directly connected, or is this to be a "divorced" setup?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Thanks.
> The SR-309 output is offset (to either side, your choice) and the transfer case input is normally on-centre. How are you planning to handle that? And will the gearbox and transfer case be directly connected, or is this to be a "divorced" setup?


It will be divorced and we are still working out the drivetrain alignment details once we get a good CAD model sorted out. Would have gone with the TorqueTrends speed reducer as it is not offset, but the 3:1 ratio of the SR-309 fit better for us. So, we will make it work...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Just a lame update... This part shortage is slowing the project. Many components on order with LONG lead times. We are also in the process of setting up a test station to start with the battery activities, but this will also take some time. A new video about e-motor calculations will be posted soon and in the meantime, my wife bought a new car to get her used to the EV life... She let me drive it to work this morning... Really fun car!!! She "filled it up" two days ago for $9. Not bad when my Edge takes more than $50 these days...










Video Link:


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## sscr (11 mo ago)

Love your guys videos! That orange is the best color for the mustang. 

So I’m researching out doing a vehicle similar to yours, TJ or JK frame with Atlas transfer case, G2 axles (3.73 gearing) and I really like the motor and gearbox option you’re going with. The parking brake feature on the gear box is a huge bonus, no one realized the difficulty and cost in adding a working parking brake to a custom vehicle.

I have the fabrication handled but no experience with electric motors, inverters, or batteries.

I see you’re using the IM-225 andSR-309 but what charging and DC to DC inverter did you decide on? Any idea on battery modules yet? 

I’m working on a couple ideas to mate the gear box to the transfer case, right now. I’ll post if I come up with a solid plan.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It is not a parking brake. It's a parking pawl. There is a huge difference.

I doubt any inspection body would allow a parking pawl as a substitute for an e-brake.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

sscr said:


> Love your guys videos! That orange is the best color for the mustang.
> 
> So I’m researching out doing a vehicle similar to yours, TJ or JK frame with Atlas transfer case, G2 axles (3.73 gearing) and I really like the motor and gearbox option you’re going with. The parking brake feature on the gear box is a huge bonus, no one realized the difficulty and cost in adding a working parking brake to a custom vehicle.
> 
> ...


We are going with the Cascadia Motion DCDC / OBC combo. Combo Unit

As for batteries, we are either using reused LG Chem cell pairs from scrapped Mach-E's reconfigured into 18S2P modules, each with a AEM BMS module, or we are also in contact with another company with a modular battery concept which could allow us to have several "modules" at the pack voltage level and then you have less (like 30kW) for day-to-day driving, but then add more modules for longer trips... We will see what we come up with.

Unfortunately, many components are on back-order right now with long delivery times, but this will give us some time to test and work o the batteries.

Let me know what you come up with regarding the transfer case - e-motor/gearbox mounting. This is something that we will investigate more when we get the motor and gearbox here...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...things are finally progressing a bit.

1. All of our AEM goodies arrived this week so we will start unpacking and getting the VCU and BMS up and running and start to decommission the stock Jeep wire harness and define the all the interconnects for the EV Jeep. Will get that started next week.

2. The Cascadia Motion stuff is scheduled for mid/end of May. So no big stuff for a while... Will be visiting them end of this month.

3. A local custom Jeep shop which seems to have a pretty good reputation for their projects is interested in helping us with the mechanical integration part of the project which will be weight off my shoulders... Auto Repair & Tire Shop in Oak Creek, WI | Willy's World Customs 

4. We are using my wife's Mustang Mach-E GT to gather a substantial amount of data on the battery such as current limits, temperature deratings, min/max pack and module voltage, etc. which will help us with the BMS integration. This morning I hit . i.e. 655A @ 333V in a full acceleration and max regen of 237A @ 373V ... Fun car... We drove it from Milwaukee to Detroit with no issues. Charging was easy and fast with no problems. The Sam's Club in Kalamazoo is a nice location if you want to see some cool EV's charging there. We saw a Audi eTron, Rivian, Lightning, id4, Taycan, and Lucid Air there...

5. Getting closer to the battery test system set-up in our garage to check the cells we will reuse for our modules... This will be an adventure too.

6. Drove a Rivian R1T two days ago and that truck is really nice and quite amazing. While the performance was unbelievable (but somewhat expected for a small truck with 4 motors), I wouldn't say it was so much faster than the Mustang. The interior is REALLY nice and has a lot of really nice features. I was pleasantly surprised...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Would have been interesting to get the telemetry on current and voltage when the Rivian gets floored.

What was the voltage of the Mach-E immediately prior to flooring it?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

367V @ 44.58A


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

0.58A means you had the radio on at full blast? 😂


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

The next video is up talking more about the batteries. Hopefully the weather will cooperate soon and we can start cleaning up the frame, body, and suspension bits...outside of the garage...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Was a good day today! Battery delivery day!!! For the conversion project, the trailer project, as well as the home energy storage...18 nice Samsung SDI Mega 2.4 modules ready for solar (trying to find the manuals/BMS info though is proving harder than expected...). 

Now the fun of disassembling the modules and testing the cells...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> The next video is up talking more about the batteries...


I deeply hate watching a ten-minute video embedded in a forum to get information that could have been typed into one line of a forum post, so to save others that pain...
the decision was to go ahead with the LG Chem modules discussed earlier in the thread, reconfigured to 2P, with AEM BMS.

The rest of the discussion in the video was good... just not the new information about the build that is of interest here.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

brian_ said:


> I deeply hate watching a ten-minute video embedded in a forum to get information that could have been typed into one line of a forum post, so to save others that pain...
> the decision was to go ahead with the LG Chem modules discussed earlier in the thread, reconfigured to 2P, with AEM BMS.


Cool. Thanks for the watch hours.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Spent some free time today with the "fun" of using the 3D scanned mesh data to rough in some SW bodies to start hacking together the e-drive subframe, transfer case/gearbox adaptor, and the front motor mounts. The idea is to have a new subframe that supports both the e-drive/transfer case as well as the front batteries. Working with the scan mesh data is tiresome with my not-SW spec laptop...but it is working. The 3D printer is busy printing the mounting face of the gearbox and then I will print the adaptor plate to test how the transfer case, adaptor plate, and gearbox will all mount together. 

We decided to mount the transfer case directly to the gearbox and get new custom driveshafts made locally. We were going to change to a cable shifter for the transfer case anyway so moving it (since it lost it's mounting points when we ditched the transmission) seemed like the best option especially since getting it exactly in the right spot to make the stock shaft works seemed to be a bigger hassle. Might actually be a nice little 4WD E-Drive package if it all works right....

Anyway...just a start. Haven't done any material strength analysis or anything but just wanted to start getting some ideas...

Sorry @brian_ there's no video this time.

The rough screen caps


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Now with the 3D mesh turned off...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Mind sharing the URL where the Cascadia/BW CAD models live?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Mind sharing the URL where the Cascadia/BW CAD models live?


All on their website... iM-225 on each product page.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That internal motor spline looks unconventional. What are your plans there, or does it plug into their gear reducer?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> All on their website... iM-225 on each product page.


Including the SR-309 on it's product page.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Yeah...I have several contacts that can make me the spline to spline shaft to go from the speed reducer output to the transfer case input... Here are the internal and external spline details for the speed reducer:


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

My first real 3D printed part for the Jeep... Fit perfectly. This is the coupler/adapter between the stock transfer case and the Cascadia Motion Speed Reducer... I hope it will hold up to the torque from the e-motor...


















Finding space for batteries...


























BTW...that was just a joke about the 3D printed part being actually used on the jeep... Just a fitment test before making a real one...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The batteries in the engine bay can't lay flat?...every bit helps with lowering CG....


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The batteries in the engine bay can't lay flat?...every bit helps with lowering CG....


Maybe? The motor mounts include on the space pretty awkwardly as I've found. I've been able to get a pretty dense layout with VDA355 but the MachE's are bulkier... These screenshots are super preliminary, so don't make fun of my awkwardly placed motor. In both screenshots the inward lumps are the original motor mounts.

VDA355:










Approximate Mach-E dimensions and layout. I think there is room to do them sideways but I don't have the batteries in hand so I'll defer to D&V on this. 












Personally I'm waiting on someone to teardown the Ultium batteries from the Hummers that should be wrecked in 3...2...1...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Looking closer, is that a big chunk of square tube crossing the engine bay in place of the motor mounts in your mockup D&V?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The steering mechanism is generally immovable. 

The old motor mounts are sawzall food.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Agreed but I do like to take advantage of non-hobbyist bits that were meant to take weight against torque if I can. Re: steering, the trackbar etc are below the battery for sure. Pardon my blobby CAD engine bay for the moment, still working with the surprisingly helpful iPhone scan. Side view of steering on the bottom right. The steering from the cabin is the extreme right of the earlier screenshot. All should be well clear as far as I can tell. This tracks with the 4.0 from my experience with the XJ which is pretty much the same setup as the TJ from this era. Part of my motivation for vehicle choice is to get a bunch of fresh parts for my XJ. , the oil pan drops down below the aft of the engine and gets closest to the suspension and steering, but the engine block attaches to the mounts quite a bit upward from that.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

All I'm saying is you can lop off the engine mount ears if it gives you clearance to lower the heavy battery box CG. You can still pick up the same location on the frame to transfer that weight to the frame and front suspension.

The only bear is the damned steering box - I'm offsetting the battery box an inch or two (still in design) from vehicle centerline to get away from the steering shaft to achieve a lower CG.

A couple of inches of CG drop on a 400 pound box is huge for rollover moment in turns, or incline angle if you're crawling.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> All I'm saying is you can lop off the engine mount ears if it gives you clearance to lower the heavy battery box CG. You can still pick up the same location on the frame to transfer that weight to the frame and front suspension.
> 
> The only bear is the damned steering box - I'm offsetting the battery box an inch or two (still in design) from vehicle centerline to get away from the steering shaft to achieve a lower CG.
> 
> A couple of inches of CG drop on a 400 pound box is huge for rollover moment in turns, or incline angle if you're crawling.


One hundred percent agree from a physics standpoint. The 90s jeeps all pretty much have the same over abundant engine bay volume fore to aft due to the inline 6 engine being a long nosy beast. The steering is way over to the side to clear the weirdly large intake/exhaust manifolds from the early 80s design and the steering box is right above the bumper (above the natural off-road clearance) and ahead of the engine. All this to say it's a lot of room to work with with the ICE removed.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The batteries in the engine bay can't lay flat?...every bit helps with lowering CG....


Yes...just didn't get to that yet. The engine bay is the "easy" part... I did have three modules in there in the beginning and three definitely won't lay down...



asymptonic said:


> Looking closer, is that a big chunk of square tube crossing the engine bay in place of the motor mounts in your mockup D&V?


Yes...just a place holder for me to mate things to in Solidworks. I will remove the factory engine mounts to leave the flat "brackets" to make some kind of frame connected to the front round frame member to give me a good (flat) structure to mount things to...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

asymptonic said:


> Personally I'm waiting on someone to teardown the Ultium batteries from the Hummers that should be wrecked in 3...2...1...



Given the moments between Tesla Model S Plaids hitting the streets and the teardowns starting, it shouldn't be long for the Hummers. Rivians should appear any moment, too.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^ lol

The Ultium BMS is likely going to be encrypted RF, so look forward to either a hacking reflash of hardware that's there or replacing boards with ones we control. 

That means, what you get for your money is a thermally coupled box of cells in a different form factor than what's already out there from Mustang, Bolt, Volt, iPace, etc. A measuring tape is likely the only useful tool on an Ultium teardown, imo.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Maybe. I'd bet GM cuts corners on BOM cost and doesn't encrypt due to the wireless being internal to an EMI sealed metal box. But I'd guarantee they didn't spend enough to stop anyone from just attaching directly electrically with a custom BMS as you say.

Margins on these guys are thin compared to the oversized empty boxes they call trucks that they like to sell, so I don't expect real security on these. (I'm in cryptography/security for a living for what little it's worth).


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Way late addition: I take your point that there may be little benefit to Ultium cells if you're going to crack into them, but I had been reading that they may have been getting a bit better chemistry. For those of us that aren't as adept at delicate fabrication, the shots I've seen seem to indicate a manageable form factor with strong mount points that is at least worth considering. If the chemistry is identical to the others though I'm sticking to the more lego-like VDA355s from wherever. I love the great mounting and integrated dumb bms/thermocouple connectors on them.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

@remy_martian Thanks for the push...

Side-by-side they just fit...










...and it gives me reserve space in case the battery modules next to the rear driveshaft are too close for comfort...

BTW...these are not the stock modules... I will reconfigure into two 8-cell pair "sub-modules" that will be interconnected...










Custom liquid cooling plate...










One port in...one port out... This is the sheet metal version... Also getting pricing on machined cooling plates from our supplier...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Shit...I just noticed the batteries are upside-down inside the box...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...the project manager asked for a color render of the current model... She likes things colorful...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So, where I'd go from here is get the inverter out of the way and pull the battery modules back to the firewall to give yourself a bit more crush room in the event of a frontal. Makes for a slightly smaller polar moment as well if the project manager ever decides to enter it into Formula 1.

Lay the inverter down on the pack near the firewall. A bit lower CG from this as well or maybe same - hard to eyeball, even with the colors 😛


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The modules I'd move first not the ones by the driveshaft..you can armor that area.

The ones in front of the rear bumper are a concern and need to vamos first, imo.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You also might want to experiment with moving the inverter under the pack, offset to the passenger side. With the pumpkin offset to the driver's side, it may go in there:


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

This article describe a conversion design very close to your design:



https://jalopnik.com/the-fully-electric-jeep-wrangler-concept-looks-like-it-1846262255


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> So, where I'd go from here is get the inverter out of the way and pull the battery modules back to the firewall to give yourself a bit more crush room in the event of a frontal. Makes for a slightly smaller polar moment as well if the project manager ever decides to enter it into Formula 1.
> 
> Lay the inverter down on the pack near the firewall. A bit lower CG from this as well or maybe same - hard to eyeball, even with the colors 😛


I agree with your suggestions except the main purpose of this is for public awareness, training, and education to show the different parts of an electric vehicle so I need them easily seen and so we can explain and point to everything... So, I need to be able to easily see the e-motor, inverter, the OBC/DCDC, etc... I also agree with the rear tank area but I need to put some modules there... I am already getting a very substantial bumper and a tank skid plate to give some armor there... The nice thing about Jeeps is a lot of this kind of stuff is off-the-shelf...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah, agreed that you really can't give up the old gas tank area. Are you worried at all about the rear pumpkin hitting that module above it in flex?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> Yeah, agreed that you really can't give up the old gas tank area. Are you worried at all about the rear pumpkin hitting that module above it in flex?


Yes... 

We will be putting a 2.5" or 4" lift on it which would help but we may still put in some physical stops... Or I add a 3-4" body lift kit but then that raises the CG even more and looks even more silly...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Just my opinion, but I'd rather just move that module to lay crosswise the two in the engine bay near the firewall. You still have tons of vertical in there. The fewer module groups you have the less wiring and coolant routing you have to worry about too.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> I agree with your suggestions except the main purpose of this is for public awareness, training, and education to show the different parts of an electric vehicle so I need them easily seen and so we can explain and point to everything... So, I need to be able to easily see the e-motor, inverter, the OBC/DCDC, etc... I also agree with the rear tank area but I need to put some modules there... I am already getting a very substantial bumper and a tank skid plate to give some armor there... The nice thing about Jeeps is a lot of this kind of stuff is off-the-shelf...


Good thing you lowered that front battery. 

Now you can put the Cascadia motor on top of the front battery stack (you know...so you can point to it for educational purposes) and run a roller chain down to the driveline...

😂


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Have you considered working with your 4X shop to have a custom frame made? There are suppliers that make after-market frames for other jeeps. With a custom frame you could maximum the battery space in the center, lowest position of the frame. With your contacts, maybe you could develop a design with the frame suppliers that they could market to other people doing conversions.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Have you considered working with your 4X shop to have a custom frame made? There are suppliers that make after-market frames for other jeeps. With a custom frame you could maximum the battery space in the center, lowest position of the frame. With your contacts, maybe you could develop a design with the frame suppliers that they could market to other people doing conversions.


Hmmm....now you have me thinking...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> ... and run a roller chain down to the driveline...


Nah...we'll used a v-belt.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Have you considered working with your 4X shop to have a custom frame made? There are suppliers that make after-market frames for other jeeps. With a custom frame you could maximum the battery space in the center, lowest position of the frame. With your contacts, maybe you could develop a design with the frame suppliers that they could market to other people doing conversions.


I’ve been talking to Art Morrison frame shop for custom installing into their irs system. They said a few others have been asking the same question and have figured it out, except my old truck may be too narrow. Gotta get the measuring tape out.

The point is that with the right jeep frame supplier, they may work it out for you and the next ten customers coming through the door.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Traditional Jeep frames are pretty straightforward, so custom fabrication to adjust frame rail spacing or to provide suitable crossmembers should be feasible. There are several aftermarket suppliers and it could even make sense to buy one of their off-the-shelf frames and modify it, rather than substantially modifying the stock frame.

You can also build a custom frame to hold a salvaged EV battery, and while you're at it the drive units and complete suspensions from an AWD EV as well, using the EV's subframes of course. By the time you're done you've put a Jeep body on an EV, the way Ford paid some custom car builders to put an old F-100 pickup cab and box on a Mach E chassis using a custom frame (the _1978 Ford F100 Eluminator_). That's nice... but is it a Jeep, and is it what you're trying to do?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Veronika's latest video at Ford's Rouge plant was good. You both got access on F150 Lightning I didn't see on other channels like Transport Evolved. Congrats on being taken seriously as "press".

Meanwhile, the jump zoom at the beginning is annoying AF (doesn't mean autofocus), so please avoid doing it in future if possible.


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## sscr (11 mo ago)

Full Throttle Down also makes jeep frames that could be applicable for your project. They can be ordered with or without engine, trans, mounts and would be much easier to customize.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

As I'm aiming for a similar conversion but lack the space/time to do it, I've been in the planning stages for a long time. But that's not to say I'm not in a position to help out. D&V has provided invaluable scans of the vehicle, and I _do_ have the space for some light electronics. I've been prototyping an MCU to translate CAN bus messages to the Chrysler CCD bus to drive the stock instrument cluster. Work had been a bit slow because there isn't too much information on the actual CCD messages involved, and the code in the wild is pretty amateurish (no offense to the hard work the predecessors have done however).

PCB design:










Need to obtain all the components here beyond what I used for prototyping, many of which are merely filtration and circuit protection before hitting the trigger on PCB fabbing. But tonight, managed first light!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Spiffy. How'd you figure out the messaging the cluster needs or are you bit banging the steppers directly?


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Spiffy. How'd you figure out the messaging the cluster needs or are you bit banging the steppers directly?


Oh, nothing so hard as that. The CCD bus is a sort of early OBD bus which accepts small packets of data received by presumably microcontrollers in the instrument cluster. The physical interface is well documented and there are some stores of code for the messages but some of the details like message length weren't clearly documented. As an example RPM position is simply the ID of the RPM message, followed by a scaled byte for RPM (and interestingly MAP in the same message), and a checksum. Get it right and hand it to the transceiver chip which handles bus arbitration etc and the cluster handles needle movement.

The circuit board integrates a discontinued transceiver for CCD and a current (but supply chain delayed) CAN transceiver, power, and an MCU to talk between them via UART serial. I expected more sensitivity from the CCD bus and/or difficulty debugging a circuit with no real feedback. But apart from a couple of prototyping fails and some data scaling trials it did just sort of work in the end.

Next up is to make the microcontroller code bulletproof and revalidate the circuit for automotive reliability...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Cool. So, for the Jeep people (I'm not one), where are these control codes documented or what are they?

I also like the use of a giant hammer on such problems - the Teensy. Lovely little board.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

The best resource I tracked down for the codes is here.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Next experiment. Part of my circuit is an input from the transfer case speed sensor. This sensor produces a square wave with 8 pulses per revolution. It's geared by a gear in the transfer case to correspond to 8000 pulses per mile. To drive the dash speedometer, I want to receive this signal, calculate the frequency, do the math, and move the needle.

To simulate this I added a potentiometer to my breadboard and measure it's postion 0-100%. Then I create a PWM pulse output on one of the Teensy pins corresponding to the expected frequency of a speed sensor traveling from 0 - 100mph. I route that signal back to the Teensy on a different pin, and wrote the software as if that was the speed sensor: measure frequency counting edge transitions of the square wave, convert to MPH (or KPH), calculate the CCD bus message, and fire away:


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## sscr (11 mo ago)

Very cool stuff!!!


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Last update for a bit. Nearing "finished" for the PCB design, if it ever could be. Added a set of electrostatic discharge protection components, and added switched control of the 12v battery measurement voltage divider. In the latter's case, the MCU toggles an optocoupler to sample the 12V battery voltage to determine 12V battery charge (which of course will drive the original battery charge gauge). Without switching it there would be a small but non-zero drain on the battery. This way we can poll when the car is on but otherwise keep the circuit open and avoid any draw. 

Also added jumpers for enabling the 13k bias resistors for the CCD bus. In my bench testing they weren't needed but they may be on other vehicles, so the board gives the option to add them. Ditto some silkscreen instructions to remove the 120ohm termination resistor if there are more than 2 CCD devices on the bus that already have them.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Looks nice. What case are you using?


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

This one.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Been a long time since an update... Been waiting on parts but the big stuff (finally) left Cascadia yesterday and is on the way to my dock at work next week. Some of our other plans for the cell testing was put on hold due to overwhelming workloads for both of us plus we both got hit with COVID this week... A planned 2 week "work on Jeep" vacation starting next week will now be delayed due to our work missed this week... Anyway...another boring update...but we are still working on things...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Curious how Covid is raging, yet everything is "normal". Corporate money over caring about people...'murica.

Hope you both get through it ok.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...took a lot longer than expected, but the heart of our project finally arrived... Cascadia Motion iM-225 with matching 3:1 speed reducer. This should be fun! We also got the DC/DC converter / On-board charge combo for the rest of the power electronics needed for the project. We'll be laying everything out tomorrow and making the next video for the next steps... Still a lot of (fun) work to do...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Everybody's getting new drive unit deliveries this week. And, by new, I mean uncharted waters drive units.

With a few bolts, a saber saw and a roller chain, that DU looks like it could be at home in the back of that Mach-E as an assist motor...


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

That is a good looking motor!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Now the real work begins!


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

What are the little devices sitting on top of each battery module?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

asymptonic said:


> What are the little devices sitting on top of each battery module?


Those are the AEM BMS modules...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Spent some time last night figuring out the best way to disassemble the batteries for reconfiguration. Was trying to use some of the existing bus bar connections to reduce the number of new bus bars needed, but the mounting frame basically makes this impossible. Round two of the disassembly process is tonight. The rotary Dremel cut-off wheel worked quite well and the bus bars didn't get above 30 deg. C. I estimate it will take about 1 hour for each module disassembly...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A die grinder at Harbor Freight is cheap enough and has the power to eat through the straps. 

Save your time...and the Dremel from such abuse, given how many you have to do.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Spent some time last night figuring out the best way to disassemble the batteries for reconfiguration. Was trying to use some of the existing bus bar connections to reduce the number of new bus bars needed, but the mounting frame basically makes this impossible. Round two of the disassembly process is tonight. The rotary Dremel cut-off wheel worked quite well and the bus bars didn't get above 30 deg. C. I estimate it will take about 1 hour for each module disassembly...


A small angle grinder with a 0.060" thick cutoff disk would probably be the fastest way to cut these bars. Paraffin (a candle will do) regularly applied to the cutting edge keeps the disk from loading-up.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Cutting the bus bars with the Dremel isn't the problem. It cuts through them in like 10 seconds. The challenge is cutting the side bus bar/BMS ribbon cable "carrier" plastic piece without hitting the cell tabs or the plastic cell carriers which we want to reuse... So, it is a bit of a delicate work...which is easier with the smaller Dremel, especially with the small cable extension attachment...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

BTW...the video the system picture is from is online... I will write up a post with some of the details in the next week with an overview of the status of the project...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

Quick update on the cluster controller:










Many design iterations, too many to count, but feel like the tinkering is drawing to a close. I've added more power hardening to the design, as well as completing the 12v sampling circuit. I've bench tested this and it works great! Meanwhile in software land I have all the cluster elements driven, presenting the programmer with a simple high level set of controls. For example:

battOil.SetVoltage(measureBattery());
tachometer.SetRPM(2500);

Still need to connect two CCD bus chips simultaneously to figure out bus arbitration (which all the existing projects on the internet seemed to have skipped, but I need it to work to retain the airbag module). And need to get CAN transceiving working in software.
Finally, I've received all the actual components. Next up, bench testing each submodule in the PCB one at a time on the breadboard, after which it'll be time to pull the trigger on the PCB manufacturing.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Took the time during my day off today to complete one module teardown and rebuild into the smaller modules we will use in the Jeep. Each of these smaller modules are 8S2P with 2 modules in the same battery box and connected to the same BMS module. Then all the modules (14 in total) will be in series. Once I got the process down it wasn't too bad. Still takes about 2 hours to carefully take them apart.

Side A:

















Side B - Bus bars cut and then with the plastic frame removed.

























Then, the reconfigured modules:


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Spent some time today taking apart the Mach-E "Battery Connection Box" today... Found a lot of nice passive components I should be able to reuse for the conversion!!! I wish I could find part numbers for the big connectors... Those would be nice to reuse...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

These are the main contactors( to the controller and probably the charging system), precharge relay and resistor, air conditioner and other high voltage auxiliary component feed, main fuse, and current sensor. Also, you have the orange HV receptacles for the for the charger feed plug, plug to the controller, auxiliary component(s) plug and the plug for the control system for the battery connection box. Did I miss anything?

Maybe I didn't see it. Why are you not keeping this box intact for your conversion? It is a very nice, complete package. It may only need minor modifications for your application. Plug housings and pins for the HV and control receptacles probably are available from TE through Mouser and Diga-Key - maybe Ford. They are starting to stock them as OEM and repair parts. Look for the tiny TE part numbers on the receptacles. You may be able to match them to corresponding plugs from these suppliers. The other option is to look for the plugs on the wiring looms in a junked vehicle. Eventually, these parts will end up on eBay.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Pre-charge resistor seems a bit low. Were there two?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> These are the main contactors( to the controller and probably the charging system), precharge relay and resistor, air conditioner and other high voltage auxiliary component feed, main fuse, and current sensor. Also, you have the orange HV receptacles for the for the charger feed plug, plug to the controller, auxiliary component(s) plug and the plug for the control system for the battery connection box. Did I miss anything?
> 
> Maybe I didn't see it. Why are you not keeping this box intact for your conversion? It is a very nice, complete package. It may only need minor modifications for your application. Plug housings and pins for the HV and control receptacles probably are available from TE through Mouser and Diga-Key - maybe Ford. They are starting to stock them as OEM and repair parts. Look for the tiny TE part numbers on the receptacles. You may be able to match them to corresponding plugs from these suppliers. The other option is to look for the plugs on the wiring looms in a junked vehicle. Eventually, these parts will end up on eBay.


We for sure might keep the whole box... But, it is a bit long for the original place I was going to put these components... We will see... The higher power connectors do not have parts numbers on them. The smaller one does. I am already looking into TE and think I found them...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> The higher power connectors do not have parts numbers on them.


If they are TE parts, for some reason the company seems to go out of its way to put the PNs in obscure places in near microscopic print! Did you remove them from their mounts to look?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> We for sure might keep the whole box... But, it is a bit long for the original place I was going to put these components...


This is definitely a case where you want to find a place to fit this all inclusive, compact assembly, if it will work for you. Not the other way around. Also, potentially it could be set-up as a plug and play part that could be easily changed out for another one.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Pre-charge resistor seems a bit low. Were there two?


Nope...just one.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What's the width and thickness of the bus bars in that assembly? They seem awfully undersized for 600 amps...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> This is definitely a case where you want to find a place to fit this all inclusive, compact assembly, if it will work for you. Not the other way around. Also, potentially it could be set-up as a plug and play part that could be easily changed out for another one.


Absolutely. I just didn't know if it had a bunch of other things I didn't need. I just played some more and I have all the needed connectors to really reuse the entire thing. I just need to sort out the connections to the AEM VCU300. I would like to even reuse the aluminum connector panel.


















I also found the microscopic text on the connector...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> What's the width and thickness of the bus bars in that assembly? They seem awfully undersized for 600 amps...












16mm x 4mm... That is the DC in...so only about 300A max (150kW). The output bus bars inside are much bigger.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Does anyone know what this PCB does? CCS charge controller? FCHARG = fast charge? A shot of the back might help.


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Does anyone know what this PCB does? CCS charge controller? FCHARG = fast charge? A shot of the back might help.


Can you grab a shot of the back side of that board? I'm especially curious about that 8 pin connector. The TE yellow bit claims to be a double-contact precharge relay. TE is indicated on the PCB design as well.

Edit: probably a DPST relay controlled via that connector to precharge two downstream somethings.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Maybe I missed it. Did you calculate the battery capacity and the potential realistic range?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Of course I took like 500 pictures of this thing EXCEPT for the direct back of this board. But, in this picture you can see that it just connects to the coils of the 4 big contactors (the little wires with red and green paint on them). I think two to close the charging contactors and two for the drive contactors. Here are also some other pictures of this box in the pack... I will do more investigation maybe tomorrow or later this week and will maybe take it apart again...

Here is a quick overview of the connectors from Sandy: 




What I don't really get from my pictures is that they seem to have this connector panel on both the front and back of the pack??


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Maybe I missed it. Did you calculate the battery capacity and the potential realistic range?


60kW for ~150 miles. Veronika used a simulink model to calculate the range... She touches on it a little bit in this video...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

I stitched together several pictures to try and sort out what connects where...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> 60kW for ~150 miles.


60 kWh. Do others think that's a bit optimistic? It's a heavy, non-aero vehicle with big tires, dragging a lot of bearings and gears through a lot of oil.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I think her range estimate is eerily accurate.

I wonder what kind of magic plastic that green stuff is?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> 60 kWh. Do others think that's a bit optimistic? It's a heavy, non-aero vehicle with big tires, dragging a lot of bearings and gears through a lot of oil.


We will see... 

Even if it gets 1km/kwh it has been such a fun project...I wouldn't care. I just want a enough charge for a few hours on a trail and then get back to camp and plug into our portable solar trailer power station (project #2 or 3) for the night...


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> What I don't really get from my pictures is that they seem to have this connector panel on both the front and back of the pack??


Maybe they intend to reuse the pack in different vehicles which have a mix of front and rear motors?


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## asymptonic (Oct 14, 2021)

I'd estimated (using no sophisticated techniques) 100 miles for 40kwh, so seems about right to me.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Module/Cell Testing is going well... 

Many more details to come but using a combination of the ISDT X16 (X16 - ISDT) for charging the modules/cells (it supports up to 18S so our reconfigured 16S modules can be charged with it) and a Kunkin KP184 400W/40A electronic load which a guy wrote some really nice software for it to really a good capacity test and discharge curve... (links in here Serial to usb on Kunkin KP184 electronic load - Page 1). 

We will also use four of these loads in parallel to do some discharge pulse tests for model parameters and SOH estimations... 

The cell pairs are all coming in around ~145-146Ah which lines up with the 71Ah per cell with two in parallel...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

For those interested in more details on the MME contactor interface box, there will be some analysis by this guy here: I am exploring the Mustang Mach-E high voltage junction block today - John D. Kelly on LinkedIn | 32 comments

Oops...wrong link


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> For those interested in more details on the MME contactor interface box, there will be some analysis by this guy here: I am exploring the Mustang Mach-E high voltage junction block today - John D. Kelly on LinkedIn | 32 comments
> 
> Oops...wrong link


Link here:


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...we have been busy so been a bit off the forums. We have our first battery prototype modules done and we have had to make some adjustments to our plan. 

We were going to keep the standard stock size with 32 cells per module (16S2P) but the AEM BMS can actually support 18S and this size fits better in the Jeep after we have done some initial mock-ups so...we are changing from 112 cell pairs in series in (7) 16S modules to 108 cell pairs in series in (6) 18S modules... So we also save one BMS satellite module...

We put up a new video talking about how we built the new 16S modules in the stock size if you are interested:

Battery Video

We also started on integrating the E-Motor/Gearbox/Transfer Case into the Jeep... 




























We ended up deciding to poke the inverter through the tunnel as it made a lot of the integration much easier. We can now use the stock driveshafts with the stock transfer case. Maybe the non-integrated Cascadia motor would have prevented this, but then we would have had the extra integration of the separate inverter...so we are still happy with our iM-225 choice. Will be interesting to see how our Leaf motors will fit for EV Jeep 2.0.

Still a lot of work to do... This weekend we hope to have all three battery boxes done...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Update: we have the motor (mostly) mounted and are working on the sub structures for the battery boxes as well as the battery boxes themselves. Should have some more pictures after the weekend. Big Shout out to Darin at Performance Offroad who is helping us with the fabrication work. He knows Jeeps and fabrication and we know EVs...it's a great partnership. 










We also got in our Leaf motors + accessories for the next builds and are now exploring how to use the Leaf electronic brake booster. Not too much documentation out there for it yet and it seems to have a lot of communication to it...but I am hoping it can function as a simple iBooster. If not, we also have a Honda/Tesla iBooster we can buy...










Wire harness for the Jeep should come next week and are also working on getting the stock cluster connected to the AEM. Also adding the AEM pushbuttons and display to the dash...

Working like crazy to meet our timeline for SEMA...still a ton to do...


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## JeremyP (4 mo ago)

Nice progress, and I'm excited to see it running! I may have missed it but what will you use for the power steering? 

I have a long term plan to do this to my 4runner as it's becoming more of a play/trail vehicle (especially if we get an R1S next year). I hope you can get it operational by SEMA! Luckily the Wisconsin weather gives plenty of opportunity to work inside 😉 We lived in Eau Claire for 4 years before moving back to Western Colorado.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

JeremyP said:


> Nice progress, and I'm excited to see it running! I may have missed it but what will you use for the power steering?
> 
> I have a long term plan to do this to my 4runner as it's becoming more of a play/trail vehicle (especially if we get an R1S next year). I hope you can get it operational by SEMA! Luckily the Wisconsin weather gives plenty of opportunity to work inside 😉 We lived in Eau Claire for 4 years before moving back to Western Colorado.


Ah ja...I forgot the EPS part... We were going to go with the Leaf in-line EPS but decided that since we wanted to do somewhat aggressive "off-roading" with it that having all that stress going back through the steering linkage seemed like a bad idea... So, we got a Volvo electric power steering pump and will use the stock hydraulic system...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Brewington shipped their first boards to control the Volvo, fyi. Picks up vehicle speed from an integrated GPS module and controls the pump with that info.

Just got mine yesterday (still in the box and will be until summer). Next batch is available for preorder:









Volvo Electric Power Steering Pump Can Bus — BWS


Can Bus controller for type 1 & 2 Volvo Electric power steering pumps for variable steering assist




www.brewingtonwiringsystems.com


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Brewington shipped their first boards to control the Volvo, fyi. Picks up vehicle speed from an integrated GPS module and controls the pump with that info.
> 
> Just got mine yesterday (still in the box and will be until summer). Next batch is available for preorder:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Spent the morning trying to get the Leaf brake booster to function...but no luck. I think it needs a wake signal over the CAN bus from the brake system module... Any suggestions before I just break down and buy a Tesla or Honda iBooster? Wanted to use the leaf ones because we have 2 of them from the motors we got...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Summoning @Dala - he may know.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Did you get the big black capacitor that goes with the electric motor-driven master cylinder?










The capacitor is located behind the rear seat in the 2012.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

kennybobby said:


> Did you get the big black capacitor that goes with the electric motor-driven master cylinder?
> The capacitor is located behind the rear seat in the 2012.


No...I was hoping it was just a UPS in case the 12Volt systems was dead... I know not having it could also be my problem...but was hoping to not need it.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Without it you won't have any brakes when the power is off, or if you lost power while driving. You would have to compress all those plunger shafts and springs to move the piston. 

Way to go nissan--take a simple function and make it overly complicated by adding a bunch of springs, lots and lots of bearings, plunger shafts, a ball screw actuator with an outrigger electric motor--yeah that's the way to design it. 

Compare to mitsubishi EV, regular master cylinder with a small electric vacuum pump and an accumulator tank.

too bad missan didn't spend any engineering effort on cooling the pack; i'm sure there was lots of R&D to get this brake booster to work. 

Braking is a critical safety function for a 4000 lb moving mass of metal, and it needs to be fool proof and fail safe; but there are plenty of folks that have reported issues with this monstrosity over on the laef forum.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Even more reason to switch over to the Honda/Tesla solution...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Don't have time to get the Leaf brake booster working so got the Tesla brake booster from a local source yesterday with the pedals and matching connectors. So simple and like half the weight of the Leaf system.










Also spent some of the weekend cutting modules apart... I have now successfully liberated more than 150 LG cells from their original Mach-E configuration... 










Front battery box getting ready for test assembly with the final module configurations and then off to powdercoat... (excuse the long test rivets...it was all we had at 2am)










Final BMS wiring being prepped...










Got a 14 circuit wire harness fromKwikwire so we are also working on the 12V distribution... Too many things to do!


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Designed and 3D printed the coupler from the SR-309 to the stock transfer case and it is now at the machine shop to get made for real after test fitting in the Jeep this morning...


















Couldn't find the dimensions for the transfer case input spline anywhere so I was lucky to find a local source of parts and got one for fit-up and for the shop to match to... The 3D printed one fit perfect though (the green line in the first picture was the depth the coupler fit into the stock transfer case 55mm input gear)...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Brief update before a crazy build weekend...

Adapter plate came in yesterday:










Coupler was finished today and just picked it up:










Battery box panels are finished and powder coated and picked up this morning.

12VDC electrical system planned out and the Kwik Wire wire harness is ready to go in:










Stock harness on stand-by for connectors










Suspension upgraded:

















Bling has arrived:










Soundbar in and interior sprayed...


















We also have the VCU300 talking to the BMS, Screen, pushbuttons, contactor box, and PDUs.

Weekend to-do:


Assembly front battery box
Make HV Battery bus bars
Build HV Contactor Box
Assemble Drivetrain (speed reducer/adapter plate/transfer case)
Get the OBC/DCDC talking to the VCU300/BMS
Make the inverter/motor cables
Add laminated bus bars to jeep for the back battery

Target: Spin the wheels next Thursday...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Is that coupler a temporary stand-in so the Jeep will move?

Hard to tell from the camera angle, but it looks like it was cut with a vee shaped cutter or slitting saw instead of an involute cutter profile. Which should be ok as a shortcut for moving the Jeep onto a trailer and show stand.

What height is the suspension and body lift you had put in?

V needs to be careful playing under a lift with no jackstands - cars fall off those more often than you'd think.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Is that coupler a temporary stand-in so the Jeep will move?
> 
> Hard to tell from the camera angle, but it looks like it was cut with a vee shaped cutter or slitting saw instead of an involute cutter profile. Which should be ok as a shortcut for moving the Jeep onto a trailer and show stand.
> 
> What height is the suspension and body lift you had put in?


I will ask the machine shop about how they made it... But right now the MVP is driving on and off the trailer... It was tough finding a place to make anything in less than 6 weeks...
The body lift was on the Jeep already and is 1" and the suspension lift is only 2"...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Understood. Just was thinking you might want to toss a proper spline onto those, if it's been straight cut, for any extended driving...you have too much invested in Cascadia to gall its splines. Now's the time to commission a spline cut coupler, if it hasn't been, given the shop lead times you were quoted.

Straight cut will do for non-driving, low stress, short hop, vehicle motion you're doing. It's likely half the SEMA cars won't move on their own power, lol.

Real beadlocks was impressive, btw. Getting offroad serious...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

kennybobby said:


> Way to go nissan--take a simple function and make it overly complicated by adding a bunch of springs, lots and lots of bearings, plunger shafts, a ball screw actuator with an outrigger electric motor--yeah that's the way to design it.
> 
> Compare to mitsubishi EV, regular master cylinder with a small electric vacuum pump and an accumulator tank.


If Nissan is wrong about this, so is everyone else. No manufacturer puts vacuum pumps in vehicles that need braking assist without the engine running - they all use electric motors driving screws to push on the master cylinder rod, whether it is the more common Bosch iBooster or a similar system like this. Of course one reason is that this allows computer control of braking without the driver pushing the pedal, not because of an electric or hybrid powertrain but to enable driver assistance features.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Lots of manufacturers put vacuum pumps in vehicles for brake assist, so am not sure why you said that.

My '61 Ford even had a vaccum pump for the wipers, lol. Naive 15 year old genius me swapped in a hi perf V8, plumbed to the manifold vacuum. Wipers would stop when you mildly floored it 😂

Yes - smart cruise and collision avoidance require computer braking....hence the motorized brake assist vs vacuum booster. 

Otherwise lots of cars use a vacuum pump to run a vacuum brake booster. It's the easiest way, imo, to do an EV swap if you can manage the noise from the pump.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

To be clear, I was referring to current technology... say, from the past decade. Old solutions still work, and may be suitable for a conversion; after all, some people still put brushed DC motors in conversions. Tesla used a vacuum pump until they switched to the iBooster.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Understood. Just was thinking you might want to toss a proper spline onto those, if it's been straight cut, for any extended driving...you have too much invested in Cascadia to gall its splines. Now's the time to commission a spline cut coupler, if it hasn't been, given the shop lead times you were quoted.
> 
> Straight cut will do for non-driving, low stress, short hop, vehicle motion you're doing. It's likely half the SEMA cars won't move on their own power, lol.


Good catch... Unfortunately the Cascadia documentation is lacking and, quite frankly, a mess and the drawing didn't specifically call out involute but in one of the other manuals it does... But, for now...it will work... The challenge might be that the input to the NP231 transfer case is a straight cut spline but the other side would be involute...

The integration of the CM stuff and AEM EV is a bit more frustrating and time-consuming than we hoped. We also are double and triple checking all connections to not let the smoke out of anything and then once we have the HV system built up...being extra careful too. Now is not the time to rush for something that is just going to sit in place at SEMA (you are even mandated to disconnect all batteries while in the showplace)...


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

Suspension work, brake work, and general chassis clean-up is done. Time for the EV Powertrain to be installed today...














































Wish now we would have pulled the body off and did a full resto on it...but maybe in the future...


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## 428RC (12 mo ago)

looks nice, are all the stars still aligned to make the show


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

428RC said:


> looks nice, are all the stars still aligned to make the show


We will make the show...but it won't be running. We just ran out of time and decided instead of rushing it we would get it back together as much as possible and enjoy the rest of the build...and do it right.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

428RC said:


> looks nice, are all the stars still aligned to make the show


Of course... 
How could (2) EV experts (no quotations)  
...with pockets full of cash
...using mostly brand new, off the shelf components (& the tech support that comes with it)
...plus, having a professional Jeep shop assemble (most of) it for them
...not make it?

Um...wadda you mean, "it won't be running" 
...so, it's just going to be a "prop"? (OMG)

IMO you guys should have skipped the fancy wheels & brake system etc.
...& concentrated on the propulsion system & driveline (you guys knew, you had a deadline)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Day jobs -- while we're on "should have", and 20/20 hindsight, taking a leave of absence to work 18/7 on the project would have demonstrated the commitment to the project to the build's sponsors.

While she might be assisting, this is likely a one man show, after work and weekends, for the most part, to complicate completion speed even more. Experience takes years, not a couple of hours.

Half the stuff at SEMA doesn't run, so meh. As long as it looks good and the major pieces are mounted, it'll achieve its objective.


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## 428RC (12 mo ago)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> We will make the show...but it won't be running. We just ran out of time and decided instead of rushing it we would get it back together as much as possible and enjoy the rest of the build...and do it right.


no worries, show off your work, concepts, and future plans and have fun. It should be done right, safety is paramount not schedule.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

A lot more work done this weekend and have one more day tomorrow. Interior is almost back together and all the main components are mounted. The battery assembly was a pain in the butt and will probably be reconfigured after SEMA. Finishing the battery contactor box/cover for the battery box this morning. 

But, we will have something for the trailer to Vegas on Wednesday. SEMA was never the target... The Easter Jeep event in Moab was... SEMA was just by invitation by one of my wife's clients and we wanted to take the chance to go and see all the other amazing builds... Of course when you tell companies that the Jeep will be at SEMA...it is amazing how much stuff they throw at you to have it on the Jeep there...so we couldn't turn it down. It was also a nice push...


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## JeremyP (4 mo ago)

The frame/suspension looks nice and clean, and I'm interested to see more on the battery box build! A common upgrade you may want to look into is a slip yoke eliminator for the rear output of the transfer case which allows for a longer drive shaft and lower ujoint angles. Do you think it will be a problem having the front of the motor essentially hard mounted? I see the rear mount has bushings, but since they're at the frame that still doesn't allow for much rotational give. It's amazing how much frames twist when offroad! Also oem electric vehicles like our i3 have bushings that allow quite a bit of motor movement; that helps reduce the shock load when the motor torque kicks in. Will you be towing the Jeep to sema with your lightning?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The offroading frame twist is a very valid concern that could crack/break the case/adapter if a sudden load. 

Good catch.

Looking forward to SEMA booth pics. They (project cars) grow up so fast these days 😂


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

JeremyP said:


> The frame/suspension looks nice and clean, and I'm interested to see more on the battery box build! A common upgrade you may want to look into is a slip yoke eliminator for the rear output of the transfer case which allows for a longer drive shaft and lower ujoint angles.


Yes, we are also considering a transfercase upgrade including a yoke eliminator but right now the target was to get it running and see what breaks first. Honestly, the whole suspension and wheel upgrade wasn't really planned...so now that it was upgraded, it makes more sense to do some more... Also replace the rear Dana 35 with a 44 or something... We also might upgrade the transfercase completely to a beefier unit... 



JeremyP said:


> Do you think it will be a problem having the front of the motor essentially hard mounted? I see the rear mount has bushings, but since they're at the frame that still doesn't allow for much rotational give. It's amazing how much frames twist when offroad! Also oem electric vehicles like our i3 have bushings that allow quite a bit of motor movement; that helps reduce the shock load when the motor torque kicks in.


Yes, we also have rubber bushings for the front mounts too...just have too many other things that needed to be done too. They will be finished when we get back from SEMA. But good point and I will discuss at SEMA about the best way to mount it and protect it from twist...



JeremyP said:


> Will you be towing the Jeep to sema with your lightning?


I wish, but no. We definitely drink the EV kool-aid but are also realists and know that towing a trailer with the Jeep all the way to Vegas from Wisconsin with the Lightning isn't very practical...so it will be towed with the shop owners diesel pick-up/camper. We actually have family in town from Austria until next Monday and we will fly to Vegas Monday afternoon after we get them on their flight back to Vienna...


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## 428RC (12 mo ago)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Yes, we are also considering a transfercase upgrade including a yoke eliminator but right now the target was to get it running and see what breaks first. Honestly, the whole suspension and wheel upgrade wasn't really planned...so now that it was upgraded, it makes more sense to do some more... Also replace the rear Dana 35 with a 44 or something... We also might upgrade the transfercase completely to a beefier unit...


haha the classic Jeep upgrade sequence  looking good and good luck at the show!


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## JeremyP (4 mo ago)

I hope the show goes well and I hope to see the Jeep operational during Easter Jeep Safari! I'm just 90 miles from Moab in Grand Junction so it's an easy trip over there.


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## EV-FAN (May 17, 2021)

Congrats on taking the Jeep to SEMA! I had the privilege of seeing the Jeep on display. Great job representing/promoting the DIY build community!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Unfortunately, they got upstaged by Stellantis' Jeep "electromod":






This appears to be a true "crate motor" that idles and uses rotary accessories like the AC pump.

I'll start another thread vs us trashing this one if you want to talk about the Stellantis conversion.


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## JeremyP (4 mo ago)

Look at what I spied! I just pulled off the interstate in Fruita, coming home from a day trip to Moab and I saw a tan Jeep on a trailer! I pulled in to take a quick glance.









We usually end up full of dust and sand after going to Moab but the trail we did (Hey Joe canyon) runs along the Green River and there were a few muddy spots. There were a few tricky rocks as well. When your jeep is operational and you bring it out to Moab, let me know if you want info or guidance on trails to do.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

SEMA was amazing. Got so much good feedback and will be incorporating several changes over the next few weeks to make things even better. 

@JeremyP Awesome...yeah...Darin was driving it back over the weekend. That's great that you saw it. Next year we plan on driving back too with some off-roading along the way. Maybe even do some around Vegas.


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## JeremyP (4 mo ago)

I noticed a few pictures of the Jeep at SEMA in this sideshow: 








The Best EV Trucks of the 2022 SEMA Show


Three years after making their SEMA debut, BEVs are no longer a novelty at custom-automotive’s nerve center.




www.motortrend.com


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

So...to clear the air on a few topics...

Before SEMA we had a huge amount of work that was both on the base Jeep (which Darin did help us out with as Teraflex/Bestop/XKGlow sent us a bunch of stuff to put on it right before the show) as well as getting the EV parts together as much as possible. All of the EV work we (my wife and I) do. Darin is a fabricator as well so he helps with fabricating up mounts (although Veronika DID all the mill work for the motor mounts...) and things like that, but all the HV battery, VCU, 12V system, and all the design and engineering work is done by us...at nights and on weekends...after our day jobs... So, we focused on getting the Jeep as done as possible for the show...and it was HUGELY successful even though it wasn't "done". This also meant there wasn't any time for any (much) content to post. I think we each went through 300-500 business cards...

In this frantic build session we found a few things we want to redesign for the final build especially regarding the battery boxes. These will be almost totally redone and we will start that this coming weekend. We honestly needed a break after the show as well as I am quite busy with 2023 R&D budget planning for my day job. We will still use the Mustang Mach-E modules with the AEM BMS system... Our plan is to get it driving before the end of the year (which would make the anniversary of us pulling the engine out)...but the real target is to get it to Moab in the spring We also have turkey week in there as well as a trip back to Austria for Christmas...

We are in parallel working on a possible business plan for all of this... More on that when we get further along. But, we do have plans and are sorting out the financial needs and sourcing over the next 4-6 months...as well as proving out our technical concepts at Moab.. We also have a few more fun builds in the works...it's amazing what 4 days in a show like SEMA will do for future ideas...

In addition, we secured a substantial amount of OEM contactor/fuse boxes that we may piece out to the DIY community as parts if there is an interest... 

Finally, we are working with a Tier 2 supplier that already has battery cell contracts with LG and CATL to design a common battery module suitable for EV conversions in a power/voltage configuration suitable for Leaf powertrains and priced more competitively than Tesla modules... More on that later if it pans out (and the price/cost is right)...

For more Jeep specifics...our action list for the next month is:


Redesign and rebuild the front and rear battery boxes and fully install into the Jeep with all the high voltage cables/flexibar, with the safety isolation contactors and fuses.
Finish the 12V wiring including the VCU controlled brake lights, radio, cabin climate control, lighting (headlights, brake lights, turn signals, cabin lights)
Integrate the Mach-E contactor "box" into the Jeep including the HV DC contactors, pre-charge resistor & contactor, LEM sensor, and Aux. HV contactor
Finish the heating/cooling system for the batteries & OBC/DCDC as well as the second cooling loop for the inverter/e-motor.
Get the brake booster and electric power steering working.
Get the AEM VCU300 operating and programed with the BMS, HVIL, LEM current sensor, OBC/DCDC, AEM pushbuttons, and AEM display
Get the stock cluster communicating with the AEM (reading the CAN bus signals and converting to CCD for stock gauge display) (probably not this year)
Get the final speed reducer/transfer case coupler cut and the final driveshafts connected along with the transfer case shifter.
Get it registered by the DMV
Drive it in the Wisconsin snow

If you are still enjoying this content and want to keep seeing updates, thanks for following. We appreciate all the constructive feedback and the interest and we are still having a blast and we really enjoyed meeting so many nice people in the EV conversion community at SEMA. We also have some exciting professional things coming up from Veronika's work...so if you are going to be at CES and want to meet up...send me a DM.

Cheers
Don


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Yes, most of us enjoy a progressing build & want to see updates
...but, IMO it seems like you guys have "too many irons in the fire" at once
...& aren't able to or can't give each "one" the attention "it" needs 

Ya need to concentrate on just a few things at a time (like maybe the power & propulsion systems)
...& once you have an actual "running" example of what you guys "can" or "want" to do
...then, move on to gauges & gadgets etc.
...& then, expand your horizons  

With all of the of programming & trouble shooting still ahead of you, I'd be impressed "if" you guys get 1/2 of that list done by the end of the year. (especially, with all of the distractions) Good luck! 

There is a BIG difference between doing stuff "on paper" & "in simulations" (book smarts)
...than, is to do it "hands on" (street smarts)

Welcome to the "real world" 


* Daren should have (seized the opportunity &) given out just as many biz cards

If someone is interested in an electric Jeep conversion, do they get ahold of the "folks" that talk about electric Jeep conversions?
...or the "guy" that "actually" builds them?

If he's business savvy, he just found a "new" niche


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

🤦‍♂️


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

LOL @Functional Artist 

My wife and I both live by the mantra "If you go to bed at night with everything crossed off your To-Do list, you didn't have enough stuff on your To-Do list"...

If you would like more consistent updates meeting your desired timeline, we would be happy to send you an offer for a consulting contract...

In the mealtime, you can go back to your experiments cutting open battery cells to see if there really is jelly inside a jelly roll...


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Wow! first Remy & now you guys?

Everyone thinks they're an "EV expert" & wants to "get paid"? (on a DIY forum) 
...but, for what? vast knowledge in building DIYEV's & years of personal experience driving/testing one? 

AFAIK Remy has never even built an EV (just talks a lot)
...& you guys have yet to even "bench test" your propulsion system
...& seem to be quite a ways-away from an actual "first test drive"

FWIU most of you'alls EV experience is driving OEM EV's 🤣 

Yea. lots of "hands on experience" in converting a vehicle to electric, to be able to advise others 


* Um...did you learn anything from my "hands on" experiments? (btw thanks for watching) 

*I did, *Chevy Volt Lithium cells seem to be very hard to destruct (but, I'm still trying) 
...& don't always listen to "experts" (especially "if" that advise doesn't seem to go with or co-oborate with other info you have or know about a subject or situation)

Getting advise is "good"
...but, "if" you want to "know for sure" about a "specific situation", it's best test the theories yourself


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

@Functional Artist sigh...I'm tired of arguing with you. Let's move on... If you want to discuss further, we can in the DM's I have been sending you to clear the air, but you have ignored...

Let's get back to regular programming...


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Sorry, I just noticed my bluntness "knob" somehow got turned "way up" 

I will (quietly) follow your progress...carry on


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Functional Artist said:


> Everyone thinks they're an "EV expert" & wants to "get paid"? (on a DIY forum)


Dave and Veronika have shared their project with us in this forum without compensation, other than the exchange of information that we all enjoy. The point of the comment about consulting was clear to me: you get what you pay for, and none of us are paying for this project or for it to be done on any schedule.


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## Lunexpower (2 mo ago)

You should really try and get this thing moving before tackling all the fancy things.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Please list the "fancy things" - I'm sure, as you seem to think, they are oblivious to their program's priorities, so make your 3rd posting, ever, one that contributes wisdom to the forum members by rank listing the fanciest thing to the least fancy thing in their Jeep conversion.

Go for it. You have @Electric Land Cruiser's full backing 😂


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

remy_martian said:


> Please list the "fancy things" - I'm sure, as you seem to think, they are oblivious to their program's priorities, so make your 3rd posting, ever, one that contributes wisdom to the forum members by rank listing the fanciest thing to the least fancy thing in their Jeep conversion.
> 
> Go for it. You have @Electric Land Cruiser's full backing 😂


Yes, the last point on his list before registration and driving it in snow is to simply "Get the final speed reducer/transfer case coupler cut and the final driveshafts connected along with the transfer case shifter."

Probably not the best thing to leave to the very end especially considering the time spent machining and test fitting in the chassis and any changes that need to be made to the prototypes. After all, this is literally the only part that will make the Jeep drive down the road under its own power.

The drivetrain is something that caused me headaches from the start and I'm about 4 months into waiting for my new machined adapter prototype to be completed by the machinist.

And I did take my truck to Moab and came back with a new list of things to tackle.

@D&VsEVJeep has an awesome built that is in a totally different league than many on this site, including mine. I have seen builds like that before outside the EV world. It's going to take a long time to keep that quality through the entire build. Based on what they have left to complete and the current state I also don't think it will be running by the end of the year. I'd love to be wrong. I'd also love to meet you guy out there in Moab next spring!!

@remy_martian I know this is all just theoretical to you


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Disagree.

We reviewed the "splines" and determined they would be adequate for the Jeep to move around with light loading.

So they do have a sufficient mobility solution, currently, and no worse than that vibrating POS you used to get around the block the first time -- the spline cutting is likely not their long pole in the tent, which is the right call, imo. It's the LAST thing that needs to be done, not the first....their systems and basic vehicle functions can all be validated with coupler 0.1.

I'd say Moab is agressive at this point. Their 2022 year is pretty much done now, unless the Jeep is being checked as luggage to Austria so they can work on it during the holidays and he can have an excuse ignore his inlaws 🤨


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## jmes (Mar 12, 2015)

I've been following and enjoying the updates. My wife and I would like to get at least a PHEV or Hybrid Jeep as our next vehicle, and would prefer the 2-door so that kind of crosses out the 4xE, and your build is so great going with the 2-door. 

I'm also following as to see your use of the Mach-E batteries. One of my EVs is a Ford Ranger Electric(factory!), but only has about 40 miles of range currently, I'd like to upgrade it, a lot of guys use LIPO batteries, but for longevity and some more weatherproofing I've been looking at liquid cooled and thinking using "Ford" batteries to upgrade it would be appropriate. What did you end up with for KWH pack with your build? I thought I read it somewhere but you keep doing frequent updates so the thread is quite long!

Could a summary be edited into the first post? Like motor/battery specs, expected range? Like what you've posted in updates so far condensed. 

Some folks here seem to have an over abundant dose of cynicism, probably from about 90% of builds not being completed, but your build is definitely shaping up. It takes as long as it takes, even non-conversion people restoring old trucks and cars, you may not have got all the rust spots but you're essentially doing a frame off restoration of a 24 year old Jeep, on top of engineering a completely different drivetrain, that is no small task for a first time go at it. 

I get the jitters just thinking of trying to upgrade my Ranger batteries and I was a mechanic in a previous life that'd done a full engine swap from gas to diesel using a shade tree and pulley for an engine hoist. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

-Jim


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

jmes said:


> I've been following and enjoying the updates.
> -Jim


Thanks for the post Jim. 

My current idea is getting the project running still documenting it in this thread and then once it is "complete" (whatever that means...lol), I would do a new thread which cuts to the chase regarding the build as a summary...

Right before our holiday trip we finally got our cooling/heating plates and can now start the battery box "rebuild". So, we will be posting an update soon after Christmas and before the New Year... We also have a few LCEs (Life Changing Events) happening in our personal and professional lives which is adjusting our timeline and desired outcome a bit, but we are still targeting to get it running soon.

Nice to hear about your Ranger. I've ridden in one...a LONG time ago...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What plates are you using?


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> What plates are you using?


We got some OEM plates from the C-Max and the Mach-E pulled from salvaged cars. Unfortunately the Mach-E ones are not salvageable and not the right form factor but the C-Max ones should be good enough... Just need to find 6 flat enough and without too much damage to the fluid connection ports.


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## jmes (Mar 12, 2015)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Nice to hear about your Ranger. I've ridden in one...a LONG time ago...


Thanks! I had a 1994 Ranger when my wife and I first started dating so it was kind of full circle for us to get this one, love driving it, lot simpler than the newer EV trucks, and about 1/10th the cost too!  

Good luck with those cooling plates, some look pretty beat up, maybe check with some warm liquid and a thermal camera to be sure you're getting even cooling on the ones you pick out? 

Hope your LCEs go smoothly, enjoy the holidays!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

D&VsEVJeep said:


> Took the time during my day off today to complete one module teardown and rebuild into the smaller modules we will use in the Jeep. Each of these smaller modules are 8S2P with 2 modules in the same battery box and connected to the same BMS module. Then all the modules (14 in total) will be in series. Once I got the process down it wasn't too bad. Still takes about 2 hours to carefully take them apart.
> 
> Side A:
> 
> ...


I doubt it's out in the wild, but I'll ask.

Does anyone know the torque spec for the four compression bolts on either the Mach-E or the Chevy Bolt EV module?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It looks like the cooling plates are covered with an array of adhesive strips. Have you measured the dimensions of a strip or found the source of those?

Do those strips provide electrical isolation of the cell outer layer from the aluminum cooling plate? 

Are they some sort of thermal conduction pad?

There may be some sort of compression factor needed to "activate" the properties of the strips, and this would be tied in to the bolt torque.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The cells have a light adhesive polymer between every other one, if that's what you're asking. That said, every other cell pair is in direct contact with a cooling plate.

The rods hold the module assembly together. The module assembly then goes down onto adhesive strips that may electrically isolate those cooling plates from the chiller plate, but the strips' primary function appears to be thermal.

@SimonRafferty, iirc, in the UK, posted a source of some of that type of material in another thread...I'm running late for school, but will try to remember to look for it later. Remind me if I forget or someone else doesn't locate it before I can.

So, no - there's no adhesive activation by the rod torque.


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## 428RC (12 mo ago)

Hi Remy,

on the Mach pack, the long bolt through the battery packs is a shoulder bolt, so bolt torque is moot in relation to the battery compression, the length of the shoulder vs the battery pack/foam spacer stack is the relevant dimension. I removed the foam and reassembled the stack battery to get the dimension, then extrapolated that to get the bolt length for an expanded pack. shown here


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Thanks for the insight on how they do it.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This is what I was thinking of, which Simon initially posted: https://silex.co.uk/shop/sheeting/s...f-thermally-conductive-silicone-sponge-sheet/

Not sure what @D&VsEVJeep are planning to use, or if there's other thermal interface material we can use that you don't need to buy several tons a year of.


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## D&VsEVJeep (Dec 9, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> This is what I was thinking of, which Simon initially posted: https://silex.co.uk/shop/sheeting/s...f-thermally-conductive-silicone-sponge-sheet/
> 
> Not sure what @D&VsEVJeep are planning to use, or if there's other thermal interface material we can use that you don't need to buy several tons a year of.


We are going to just reuse the compression pads that are in the modules... They actually come out easily and are in good shape...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Yup. There are what you call thermal compression pads withon the modules, then there are the strips that interface the module to the chiller plate. The link I provided was for the latter....no need to change out the former....they have a tacky, reusable adhesive, whereas the module to chiller isn't easily removed/reused from the looks of it let alone available to people who buy loose cells or modules vs a pack.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh yeah that's the compression factor "activation" feature that i was thinking of, having brain fog as to the technical name for this property


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## 428RC (12 mo ago)

in my disassembly of the Mach batteries. I noticed that the design seems to work to prevent the battery pouch surface or the heat sink that touches them from touching any other metal. this includes from heat sink to heat sink, from pouch/heatsink to the long axis shoulder bolt, the endplates to the heatsink, and from the heat sink to the chiller plate. the heatsink to chiller distance was rather large and was filled by the thermal goo. this was at least a 3mm gap. I assume that this is to prevent leakage or shorting from the pouch outer surface to any grounded metal on the vehicle? maybe an EE can confirm/explain this is what I am seeing? I am trying to maintain all of these gaps in my reconfigured battery.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The cell pairs ("modulette") that I have are fitted with the compression foam between the cell pairs in the modulette and the cell pouches are in direct contact with with the cooling plates of the modulette, but is there another set of pads or plastic film between modulettes or is it metal to metal? 

I only have modulettes so am blind to how Ford & Chevrolet assembled their modules. 

I checked @CyberBill's video and it's not readily evident:


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## CyberBill (Jan 15, 2020)

Thanks for the tag, @remy_martian !

Funny enough, I've been watching along with the Electrified Veronika YouTube channel since they started, but didn't know about this thread.

Seems like they are on the cusp of their first drive, which I am very much looking forward to! I'm in a similar situation myself - just a few more hours of work (fingers crossed) and I should be able to drive forward a couple of feet and then back it up, right back to the lift. 

The crazy thing is that back in June I was "so close to having first drive!" and was trying to push to be able to drive people around for the 4th of July. Now 6 months later I still feel months away from that goal.

Good luck D&V!!


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## jonatalvarz (3 d ago)

Oh


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