# Motion Apparatus



## Guest (Jun 5, 2010)

Not too interested if you can't even post an image or give a link to where we can go look. Spamming and scamming is the flag of the DAY. Vague ramblings of some sort of device is not going to go far here.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Not too interested if you can't even post an image or give a link to where we can go look. Spamming and scamming is the flag of the DAY. Vague ramblings of some sort of device is not going to go far here.


Sorry. Graphics up now.

Have dated and got witnesses to conception and who concieived date even so I know there's nothing like it which is evidential by way of the market and the continued research into battery charging/ longer lasting batteries.
Possible hybrid with regenerative braking? Rotation to heat elements? Replacement for the Petrol/deisel hybrids just don't know but what I do know is that it will rotate. What it will power is another matter altogether and one to which will eventuate, but not by me.
Finding the source otherwise not utilised is the diamond in a sea of glass


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Dude, you invented a complex way to slow down your car. You will need to market this yourself. DIY forum is not the place.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Eruera

This is an old idea - use the vehicles forward motion to run generators and charge the batteries

And it won't _*Can't*_ work

All you are doing is requiring your prime mover to work harder - you always get less out than you put in.

This thread is devoted to that concept as despite all of physics and engineering relying on the the three laws of thermodynamics some people do not get it
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-free-energy-perpetual-motion-over-13449.html

When I was a kid (40 + years ago) I built a meccano car with the front wheels geared to make the back wheels go faster, it did not work!!


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Eruera
> 
> This is an old idea - use the vehicles forward motion to run generators and charge the batteries
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with what you are saying and appreciate the comments and you are absolutely right when you say it won't work...if the unit is operational all the time but let me ask you something, with regenerative braking are the brakes applied all the time the vehicle is operational and how do they know when to operate. Controllers, initiators. My concept was to be used in a fashion similar to regenerative braking and additionally support the braking effort when and if alternators, generators are applied are activated in unison with regenerative braking.
Example: Turn the rotor on an alternator when its not producing energy/power and it rotates freely with no resistance but as soon as it is put under load to produce you can't, unless forced either by mechanical or electrical means.

This note pad is so small. And as far as Perpetual Motion is concerned there is no such thing so why compare it. Perpetual Motion is a novel idea to say the least but to expect one machine to power itself is absurd.
Now if several joint technologies worked toward Perpetual Motion then there is a small, and I say small chance it may eventuate but if its expected to produce more than it delivers, never going to happen.

Perpetual Motion, by no means. Motion Recapture, by all means.

This was never intended as a means to power a vehicle but a means to utilise an area on a vehicle in motion as a power source to which no one has picked up on. A source has been found. The apparatus was an attempt at manipulating source which by the decrease in size of connected pulleys and gears has increased rotation at the second gear shaft, but rotates freely until whatever is applied is actioned.

Cheers for the comments and again thanks to all for the positive and the negative as all are good responses 

As I stated in the first post, its not what this does, its whats applied to it.
You've in effect cut out alternators and generators. Have you considered elements to heat. Air compressors. Super capacitor/battery combo's, small electrical motors etc.

Kiwi's are a finicky people and when someone says no or not possible, we have a tendency to find out why, and do it. Not to prove anything but just to prove to ourselves so I'm sorry if what I've said in any of my messages has offended anyone 

Your comments surely havent deterred or offended me by any means.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Eruera
I am glad you are not an over unity guy!

So you intend to use this for re-generative braking,

That will work, however..
Re-gen in most instances only gives a minor improvement (10% or less)

Normally you can use the motor as a generator so you don't need the complexity of more bits
(If you are using DC that is more difficult but all of the OEM units are AC)

I have seen an argument that that you will get more re-gen if you use all four wheels
I disagree - re-gen is for normal braking and this can be done using two wheel braking,

Emergency stops or racing conditions will use all four wheels - this should be a very rare condition on the public road

So if you add cost and weight you could use your system to get re-gen on the other wheels

A lot of cost and weight for very little gain - not cost/weight effective

It is very worth having good ideas - but you then need to try a few numbers and see it still looks good


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## Toaster611 (Feb 20, 2009)

?Duncan this reminds me of my porsche 917 Hybrid

(two Radio Shack rc cars glued back to back, w motors wired in parralel for infinite regen) yeah not quite40 years ago.



we should elect someone to rewrite Physics laws

i'm all for any change!!- Toaster611- simon


_Hi Eruera Im all for regen- since 1975

_


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Eruera
> I am glad you are not an over unity guy!
> 
> So you intend to use this for re-generative braking,
> ...


Thank you for your comment it is much apporeciated as this unit from the outset showed a source where you have added another dimension to the diversity of the concept applies. What could it power or be used for.
If this apparatus is used for say braking as oppossed to normal braking which require pads.......... in conjunction with generators alternators when applied we know will slow the vehicle would it then gain the effort that would have been gained through regenerative braking.
Brake discs and pads will become part of history? Who knows.....
I see the source not being the issue but the means to recapture as the apparatus shown in the graphic was an attempt to illustrate one option of capturing otherwise wasted energy.
This is the unknown, what can we use it for to get the most benefit out of it.
Battery research and extended distance travel and pursuits along this avenue are the instigators toward finding a use for the wasted energies that are on in and around a vehicle in motion.
I'm not bucking the physics, thermodynamics or any of the intelectual sides of the debate of motion power, what I am saying is a source is there, and we as human beings are great at manipulating our surroundings to suit our needs. Your suggestion is a great one and the outcome of what you have stated is truly understood also its limits.

We know if we add solar panels we'll capture energy from the sun-external

We know we recover spent energy through regenerative braking-internal

We can do these because we know where the source is and the apparatuses these employ are the means to capture and utilise it.

My concept is like that. Source found- Source Captured -







this is the question.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2010)

10 posts wasted on vague chatter!


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Eruera
> I am glad you are not an over unity guy!
> 
> So you intend to use this for re-generative braking,
> ...


Thank you for your comment it is much apporeciated as this unit from the outset showed a source where you have added another dimension to the diversity of the concept applies. What could it power or be used for.
If this apparatus is used for say braking as oppossed to normal braking which require pads.......... in conjunction with generators alternators when applied we know will slow the vehicle would it then gain the effort that would have been gained through regenerative braking.
Brake discs and pads will become part of history? Who knows.....
I see the source not being the issue but the means to recapture as the apparatus shown in the graphic was an attempt to illustrate one option of capturing otherwise wasted energy.
This is the unknown, what can we use it for to get the most benefit out of it.
Battery research and extended distance travel and pursuits along this avenue are the instigators toward finding a use for the wasted energies that are on in and around a vehicle in motion.
I'm not bucking the physics, thermodynamics or any of the intelectual sides of the debate of motion power, what I am saying is a source is there, and we as human beings are great at manipulating our surroundings to suit our needs. Your suggestion is a great one and the outcome of what you have stated is truly understood also its limits.

We know if we add solar panels we'll capture energy from the sun-external

We know we recover spent energy through regenerative braking-internal

We can do these because we know where the source is and the apparatuses these employ are the means to capture and utilise it.

My concept is like that. Source found- Source Captured -







this is the question.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2010)

And now we repeat our selves


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Eruera
You need to run some numbers

What you are proposing is analogous to keeping your dairy herd in water by capturing rainwater in a cup glued on your car

You may well get some drops - but it won't quench the thirst


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> And now we repeat our selves


Not a problem matey. Wish you well in your endeavours. As for me well, back to the drawing board. Thanks for the comments


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Eruera
> You need to run some numbers
> 
> What you are proposing is analogous to keeping your dairy herd in water by capturing rainwater in a cup glued on your car
> ...


Cheers Duncan
Appreciate the comments. No need for an umbrella with this thing then ha ha. Have a good weekend mate


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

gottdi said:


> And now we repeat our selves


We all hear that gottdi. 

Overunity nuts want to run a generator off the wheels or traction motor, Not gonna happen.
In the know people will run regen braking, good for some.
eruera, How bout this for a racpture apparatus.
Has anyone considered the suspension? well all have shocks and springs that will move up and down wth the road. I have a neat little flashlight that you shake the hell out of and it generates power, although only a little.
What about permanent magnets on the suspension and a large fixed coil on the stationary side, essentially, a linear rotor and stator, wait, what would a linear "stator" be called, a linneator? I guess a stator is fixed, doesnt matter. What would a linnear rotor be?
My ford f250 is stiff as heck, but wifey's focus(still trying to cinvince her to convert it) is pretty smooth, good suspension movement. If the coils and magnets are stron enough, they may even provide shock absorbtion in place of the shocks.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Few2many

There is wasted energy in the suspension and it could be harvested, but there is not much there
Leave the springs alone - you need those
You are talking about harvesting the energy the shock absorbers turn to heat

Run your car for a few miles - feel the shock absorbers - there is heat from the suspension energy - but not much!


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

I have asked this question as well and received similar responses. Unless I am mistaken you are trying to reduce the load on the batteries not eliminate the load on them? In which case some sort of in wheel / hub generator producing regenerative energy may be what you are trying to create.

There is a much cheaper way to find if this works and that is by way of the electric bicycle for which in hub generators are already available for. Put the in hub generator in one wheel, and attach to the battery.

Electric motor drives the other wheel from the battery. See if using this setup increases the mileage before recharging is needed. Haven't got the funds to try it myself yet, maybe you do? You may also want to check this link as well. Also don't forget that 100(?) years ago, flying was impossible.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Few2many
> 
> There is wasted energy in the suspension and it could be harvested, but there is not much there
> Leave the springs alone - you need those
> ...


You absolutely need the springs to suspend the vehicle. You also need the shocks so the springs movement is kept in check and stable, not bouncing off the road. My idea was an added feature, in addition to the suspension.
That little link was certainly good for a laugh! Someone is trying to patent it. might make it.


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

eruera said:


> Not a problem matey. Wish you well in your endeavours. As for me well, back to the drawing board. Thanks for the comments


Not sure if this link interests you. The bike in the video has a hub generator built into the front wheel. Watch it and wait for the guy to come back to spin the front wheel a second time. Now tell me how much resistance that hub generator is creating. Not much in my impression.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

I also don't see a load on that either. It's the load that produces the resistance. If he did a test with and with out a power load then maybe. But those little light generators only produce enough to power a light not even close enough to power the bicycle. Take a generator that produces enough to power a bicycle then you tell me. My Bicycle takes 24 volts, and not sure of the amperage. But far more than one of those little generators could produce. My generator must be large. Can't charge a 24 volt pack off of 5 volts.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Sure you can charge 24v batt of 5v. get a dc-dc boost converter. However, its almost gauranteed not to be worth it.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

deanbo said:


> Not sure if this link interests you. The bike in the video has a hub generator built into the front wheel. Watch it and wait for the guy to come back to spin the front wheel a second time. Now tell me how much resistance that hub generator is creating. Not much in my impression.


First spin is loaded with two LED lights, which use a tiny amount of power (a coin cell can keep them running for days). the second spin is unloaded. Even then you can tell the difference in load.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

few2many said:


> We all hear that gottdi.
> 
> Overunity nuts want to run a generator off the wheels or traction motor, Not gonna happen.
> In the know people will run regen braking, good for some.
> ...


Love the concept. Can I just state quite clearly all the fuss about my concept delving into the perpetual motion theory is not only a false interpretation but rather an attack on any idea outside of the what is known. We wouldn't have the things we enjoy today without the ones who have challenged that thought process. Instead of viewing everything put forward as a can't be done, why not try this, why can't it be done, what are the obstacles, how do we overcome. This is basic evolution and in this instance is applicable as auto evolution.
My graphic depiction also was a leading example of this. I never claimed it could power anything. It was a means to present a method to utilise an otherwise wasted power source. The apparatus was a means to capture this wasted energy. Before you doubt the source I would like to remind you of hub motors/in wheel motors which utilise the inside of the wheels.
I was actually trying to lead you all toward a direction.
Remember the apparatus is a dual unit whereby two electric motors could be applied taking into consideration the drag which will occur when these devices are operational. How much drag applied at the input must be applied in the equated output of these devices plus deliver over and above this drag, not to the motor, but to the battery.
Example:Car electric motor 100kw with 23kwh battery pack= 6-8hrs approx 240volts= 100miles=4.1miles per kwh (Nissan Leaf) Official Estimates. Hope I don't get in the $#@( for using that! LOL
Pulse charge with x 2 Electric motors 15kw applied with Apparatus continually to battery.
Estimate only toward variable of 7kw to be divided by 2 in effect giving a 3.5kw average to each apparatus requirement to offset drag plus delivering 11.5kw to maintain battery level.
My concept would in effect create the original motor as the traction motor whereas the motors attatched to the apparatus would be deemed collective/delivery motors. Certainly not perpetual motion. Motion Recapture Yes. Perpetual Motion theory is flawed on so many fronts. I am not trying to use free energy or even create it to power. I am utilising what is there, by manipulation.

Hey dude those shaking power things are cool. Rude but cool. Seen a workout device that does same action.Health freaks should use them to power their devices, mp3,cell phone, pda etc what do you think?


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

deanbo said:


> Not sure if this link interests you. The bike in the video has a hub generator built into the front wheel. Watch it and wait for the guy to come back to spin the front wheel a second time. Now tell me how much resistance that hub generator is creating. Not much in my impression.


Much appreciated link dude. Hope you read next post which will shed alot more light on what I was aiming for. Again appreciate the comments.
When viewing would also like to recommend a google image search and view wind turbine design, hawt in particular. An exploded view. Low speed, high speed. Manipulation dude, manipulation.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

few2many said:


> We all hear that gottdi.
> 
> Overunity nuts want to run a generator off the wheels or traction motor, Not gonna happen.
> In the know people will run regen braking, good for some.
> ...


I like any idea that is utlising waste energies. How to recapture and adverse effects and how to compensate or overcome. 
I don't know about you but my background is in the consumer electronics arena and if i'm not mistaken by trends the distinguishing lines between auto and electronics is fast becoming a blurr.
Electric vehicles regardless of maker from now and into the future will be governed by the electronics. My theory only.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Got it, not going for perpetual motion. 
Then, how about this, The amount of drag/draw youre "recapture apparatus" places on the traction motor and by extention, the batt pack, does not provide more power to regen or even lessen the amps drawn from the pack, it will do completely the opposite, create more amp draw and more power pulled from the motor, dragging down the acceleration and run time. Its easy to see what youre considering and getting at, using the power provided from the recapture device to lessen the draw from the batt back, thereby extending range. BUT, as long as youre recapture device runs off the traction motor, or even the other wheels of the same vehicle, whether connected to the traction pack or not, it still creating more draw than its producing.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

deanbo said:


> Electric motor drives the other wheel from the battery. See if using this setup increases the mileage before recharging is needed. Haven't got the funds to try it myself yet, maybe you do? You may also want to check this link as well. Also don't forget that 100(?) years ago, flying was impossible.


Did you actually read the entire patent, all the claims and descriptions?


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I also don't see a load on that either. It's the load that produces the resistance. If he did a test with and with out a power load then maybe. But those little light generators only produce enough to power a light not even close enough to power the bicycle. Take a generator that produces enough to power a bicycle then you tell me. My Bicycle takes 24 volts, and not sure of the amperage. But far more than one of those little generators could produce. My generator must be large. Can't charge a 24 volt pack off of 5 volts.


Not trying to power the motor, just part power it. Or send the electricity back to the battery pack as recharge. Also the load I am referring to is how much resistance the generator creates simply by being attached to the bike. 

I can't see how this particular resistance (friction?) would be any greater if the bike was being ridden or not. To my best guess, if the generator could produce more electricity than the braking resistance(?) it creates simply by being attached to the bike, you could extend the range of the bike.


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

Just as an afterthought,

when does the electrical energy become converted to mechanical energy in an EV? Is it not at the motor? Could you not say that once this conversion takes place, technically speaking is it not mechanical energy now driving the wheels? 

I'm not trying to achieve over unity by the way, but I think the two energies might be as separate as they are related. Battery power is required to produce the mechanical energy to get the car moving but mechanical energy now drives the wheels. 

But what about when the car is heading downhill. Does not some other energy get converted into mechanical energy as well? Even when you are coasting is not some other form of energy being converted into mechanical energy too? Otherwise would the car not stop immediately if it was travelling at speed and the batteries were turned off.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2010)

You guys are not crunching the numbers. Your only using thought and not reality. Do the number crunching on each and then put them together and do a real build according to your specifications and then report back here with your results. No fudging. We know the answers. You can't charge a 24 volt pack with 5 volts in. If you use a step up transformer you in effect are not using 5 volts but what it has been stepped to. I agree not much value. 

Can't wait for the results these guys will be posting on their homework assignment that they created. 

Pete


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

few2many said:


> Got it, not going for perpetual motion.
> Then, how about this, The amount of drag/draw youre "recapture apparatus" places on the traction motor and by extention, the batt pack, does not provide more power to regen or even lessen the amps drawn from the pack, it will do completely the opposite, create more amp draw and more power pulled from the motor, dragging down the acceleration and run time. Its easy to see what youre considering and getting at, using the power provided from the recapture device to lessen the draw from the batt back, thereby extending range. BUT, as long as youre recapture device runs off the traction motor, or even the other wheels of the same vehicle, whether connected to the traction pack or not, it still creating more draw than its producing.


Thanks for the heads up on the patent idea.

I looked at that patent on freepatentsonline and will be contacting patent office as to possible infringement to my concept, as my concept predates such a unit which has been witnessed. Date of conception is April 18 2009. and I will be contacting groups that have patented hub motors as I see this apparatus as a clear infringement on their patents with the use of the inner wall of the wheels regardless of location of the wheels.
As my apparatus utilises the outer walls of the wheels there is no infringement to anyone elses concepts or ideas. As I see it, it has to do more with Aesthetic and Aerodynamics more than its practicalities. 

Yes there will be drag and no I did not say that the recapturing motors would be active continually but more in line with and in unison with regenerative braking. Braking is drag or am I wrong? With regenerative braking and this device which is measurable the ability to even recapture a tenth of the spent energy required is better than it going to waste.
Its a step, not an answer.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

I should have disclosed date of conception at the devulging of the concept graphic to which I do apologize.
Will let you all know of outcomes.

Cheers dude again for the heads up. For those that haven't seen the date of conception, here it is again, April,2009.

I like these forums because you are all answering the way I predicted which is critical analysis based on your expertise and you are admired and respected for it.....thank you.

I never expected to wow anyone or disgust anyone with my lack of knowledge but more toward opening your eyes and thoughts beyond your fields of expertise, whereby collective thoughts attribute to the goal of pushing the EV market to where we all believe it should be. The top!

Cheers to you all as I don't know if I'll have the time to visit again for awhile as I have been approached toward my concept and been offered an opportunity to be party toward a proto type.

I have a name for the apparatus, which I hope you will see in the future, near, hopefully, which is the 4GEN AUTO

Totally respect all comments made

Ka Kite Ano (NZ Maori Language), 
(English Interp) See you again


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

eruera said:


> I have been approached toward my concept and been offered an opportunity to be party toward a proto type.


It is a rip-off to rob you of money.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2010)

Still lots of vague chatter. Nothing solid to bite the teeth into. Big Red Flag


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

Hello again Euerera. I look forward to hearing about your progress. One question I am trying to resolve is that of mass in creating kinetic energy with kinetic energy been the result of mass and acceleration?

If acceleration alone was being produced solely by the cars batteries (cars power source) would this not mean that some of the kinetic energy the car makes is being produced not because of the batteries but simply because the car has mass? Or should I say some of the kinetic energy is being coming from the cars mass not it's batteries?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Deanbo

YOU HAVE GOT TO LEARN SOME PHYSICS

Nothing complicated just Newtonian mechanics

LEARN!!


WITHOUT THAT EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS JUST

WHA-WHA-WHA


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

deanbo said:


> Hello again Euerera. I look forward to hearing about your progress. One question I am trying to resolve is that of mass in creating kinetic energy with kinetic energy been the result of mass and acceleration?
> 
> If acceleration alone was being produced solely by the cars batteries (cars power source) would this not mean that some of the kinetic energy the car makes is being produced not because of the batteries but simply because the car has mass? Or should I say some of the kinetic energy is being coming from the cars mass not it's batteries?


OK, I think I can see why you're going wrong. An item's mass does not give it any energy. The only energy that an object can get comes from the energy that is put into it.

If you have a brick on the ground, it doesn't matter how much it weighs, it will have the same amount of kinetic energy as was put into it.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Anaerin said:


> OK, I think I can see why you're going wrong. An item's mass does not give it any energy. The only energy that an object can get comes from the energy that is put into it.
> 
> If you have a brick on the ground, it doesn't matter how much it weighs, it will have the same amount of kinetic energy as was put into it.


Correct. A brick on the ground without movement is a brick. Throw it in the air and the brick is mobile, when it hits the ground dependant on force applied the kinetic energy is at the point of impact, which if the brick retains its form, its kinetic energy/mass remains the same but if the brick shatters then the density and mass are?
In order for all that to happen requires the brick to be thrown. Force applied.

With this concept that rule applies. When to engage apparatus is the key. Remember the apparatus will only perform its duty when certain conditions have been met. Regenerative braking is a great example. They're not active all the time, simply put if brakes were applied all the time we wouldn't get any where.
Controlling the timing of engagement could be at time of braking in unison with regenerative braking, example only.
When coasting at particular speed or regulated at a peak draw time from battery to traction motor.
Regenerative braking and unison sounds great but my leanings are toward the upward cycle of travel as it is momentum not heat that I am trying to utilise.
In conjunction with the 4GEN AUTO I see a Ultra capacitor/ battery configuration whereby the ultracapacitor is the input, at a higher rate of acceptance, transfered to the battery to balance the delivery to the motor.
Drag is the issue and the force required.
Before the doubters again say it won't work lets look at a vehicle of any automaker.
maximum towing capacity? maximum load? These are all load bearing issues which if these factual theories are correct would stop the vehicle, but these loads don't. The motors have to work harder but don't stop the vehicle, does it.
Yes over and above all of that under load with this apparatus applied adding more load will put extra strain on the parent motor and draw more from the battery but with this apparatus will recover some of that without the addition of an ice.
Best thing about this is the concept itself. What will happen if this delivers what I've stated? My pursuit has always been to eliminate the combustion engine. Its useby date was announced the day the first person recorded the adverse effects this means of travel has been taking on our planet
when used and to emphasis this look at the Gulf of mexico, in its raw form, the amount of damage' environmentally and economically.
EV'S are not exempt. Batteries and their end of life. We have to have a solution and the best part of all this re-emergence of the EV for practical usage is an opportunity to ensure there is an answer. What the answer is, I wouldn't have a clue.
Sorry matey went off cue, but as you can most probably tell, environmentalist at heart and looking at least impact to the environment through product conception, concept usage and end of life disposal.
By the way, my parent concept I will never sell. Retention of this concept is for concepts outside of the auto industry to which seems silly to sell it only to buy some of the rights back because of usage.
My prototype is underway through a partnership deal so heres hoping we get this bugger out there, the sooner the better.
I've actually got an hour to myself so here I am lol


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

deanbo said:


> Hello again Euerera. I look forward to hearing about your progress. One question I am trying to resolve is that of mass in creating kinetic energy with kinetic energy been the result of mass and acceleration?
> 
> If acceleration alone was being produced solely by the cars batteries (cars power source) would this not mean that some of the kinetic energy the car makes is being produced not because of the batteries but simply because the car has mass? Or should I say some of the kinetic energy is being coming from the cars mass not it's batteries?


It seems you and I have upset some others here with our chatter. They must be regular einsteins.
Criticise the mans interpretation is one thing guys but to negate because he dosent conform to your way of thinking.
Keep thinking what your'e thinking Deanbo, investigate, challenge and most of all stay your course.

I built mine from off the shelf parts, whoopty do! Negate everyone else to promote your achievment, Sad dude 

All the best Deanbo


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## deanbo (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Eruera,

not sure if you want to check out this device as it is not physically connected to the transmission (or motor if there was one) so to speak. It is only connected to the chassis. It does create magnetic drag though according to the website. 

However if they magnets were electromagntic(?) it may be possible to switch them on and off with the application and release of the brake pedal in which case magnetic drag would be a good thing in terms of stopping the bike? Basically it could be another form of KERS or a step closer to replacing brake pads like you suggested?


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

Your business aspirations might be short circuited by the following patents...
US 6265851, using a combined ultracapacitor and battery power system in a vehicle;
US 5686818 and US application 2010/0006351, which describe in (very little) detail a self-charging vehicle but do make broad claims on various aspects of such a vehicle.

The latter application was filed on March 2, 2009, and a provisional was filed on July 8, 2008. That application also gives a good list of previously issued patents in the same field, which will be interesting reading.

Deanbo: Just because someone got a patent on it doesn't mean it is commercially viable, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the "invention" can be built at all to do the things that the inventor claims.
The 5686818 patent in particular was issued in 1997. If the scheme had any benefit at all, then you'd see it out there on people's cars.

Go to www.google.com/patents and search for "electric vehicle self charging". You'll be amazed.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

As you quite clearly stated if it was available it would already be on the market and I know there are alot of similar concepts out there patented and not.
I never said mine is. What I will not accept is the use of the external area of the wheels as a source on a four wheeled or more vehicle for if there is a patent I would love to see one.

Be very sure of your comments. As for Deanbo don't be put off. Challenge everything.... I do lol

It is the location and the means of the apparatus not what it powers as stated in the original texts here, what it powers is up to the user. I have a leaning toward 2 x 20kw electric motors activated at time of braking and coasting not continually operating which would be self destructive.
Replacement for regenerative braking? Could be aye buddy!
Could get more back than regenerative braking. The pure act of braking is the load required. Dumb thoughts aye

The comment about a possible ultra capacitor/ battery combination was just that for I really don't know if there is such a thing. If there is then algood. If there isn't, i'd like to know why not?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2010)

> What will happen if this delivers what I've stated?


You will be quite wealthy. No doubt. But your talking in vague terms and no substantial substance. You have not done a proof of concept with smaller vehicles which you can afford to do. If you had anything at all you'd not waste your time here trying to convince any of us of your ideas. You'd be busy working on your hypothesis. At this point it is nothing more than a hypothesis. It is your duty to prove your concept. It's fine if it does not work but you must do your research and don't waste your time doing what others have already done. Like I said before. WE know the answers. You go do your homework and figure out the answer. Then come back to build your EV and we will gladly help. Your quite willing to argue your point but very unwilling to go do your homework. Go do your homework.


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## Damann (Jun 28, 2010)

Denbo,

Hows this for a concept. I make a bank of coils used in automobiles and then take a couple batteries and power the coils and use a simple PWM to control the output of the coils and use the resulting power from the coil to power an AC motor. I know my coil takes in 12 volts and puts out a bit over 20,000 volts. More than enough to power an AC motor. I know it takes a mili second to power up each cap so I can run that through the coil and get my 20,000 volts. I know if I take a few coils and caps I can control the output to be more or less continuous so the motor will be running smoothly. It is not over unity but will allow for many many miles with out needing to charge up the initial batteries used to power the power coils. Seems strange that it has not been done or even talked about here. Sounds like the smoking gun for all EV's and the auto manufactures don't want this out. I know it will work. 

Ima


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Damann said:


> Denbo,
> 
> Hows this for a concept. I make a bank of coils used in automobiles and then take a couple batteries and power the coils and use a simple PWM to control the output of the coils and use the resulting power from the coil to power an AC motor. I know my coil takes in 12 volts and puts out a bit over 20,000 volts. More than enough to power an AC motor. I know it takes a mili second to power up each cap so I can run that through the coil and get my 20,000 volts. I know if I take a few coils and caps I can control the output to be more or less continuous so the motor will be running smoothly. It is not over unity but will allow for many many miles with out needing to charge up the initial batteries used to power the power coils. Seems strange that it has not been done or even talked about here. Sounds like the smoking gun for all EV's and the auto manufactures don't want this out. I know it will work.
> 
> Ima


The problem here is that the 20kV is at almost no amps, you are talking really low wattage. If you pull 10A at 12V, you've got 120W, convert that to 20kV and you've got 0.006A at 100% efficiency. You can't make energy out of thin air... It's got to come from somewhere; storage (batteries, fuel, etc.), solar, gravity or somewhere else.

Eric


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> You will be quite wealthy. No doubt. But your talking in vague terms and no substantial substance. You have not done a proof of concept with smaller vehicles which you can afford to do. If you had anything at all you'd not waste your time here trying to convince any of us of your ideas. You'd be busy working on your hypothesis. At this point it is nothing more than a hypothesis. It is your duty to prove your concept. It's fine if it does not work but you must do your research and don't waste your time doing what others have already done. Like I said before. WE know the answers. You go do your homework and figure out the answer. Then come back to build your EV and we will gladly help. Your quite willing to argue your point but very unwilling to go do your homework. Go do your homework.


I totally agree and to which I stated I am already on the path of a prototype or should I say Prototypes with a group now and it is all progressing rather nicely.
Minimum test period of 12 months. Longevity, usability and end of life disposal 
The great thing about this is the group could see what I was getting at with this products diversity so there are several test vehicles operating several different applications.
All steps will be disclosed at time of product full disclosure 
My rants and raves within this forum was to pull information both negative and positive from you.
All information is useful when developing ideas. The negative responses are a response waiting for an answer.
I dare not claim that this be the answer but a step in the right direction.
I am not discrediting any of all of your achievements at all for I admire everything being developed beyond combustion engine tech.
My path is not for fame but to eliminate the combustion engine for our transport needs.


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## eruera (Jun 5, 2010)

Damann said:


> Denbo,
> 
> Hows this for a concept. I make a bank of coils used in automobiles and then take a couple batteries and power the coils and use a simple PWM to control the output of the coils and use the resulting power from the coil to power an AC motor. I know my coil takes in 12 volts and puts out a bit over 20,000 volts. More than enough to power an AC motor. I know it takes a mili second to power up each cap so I can run that through the coil and get my 20,000 volts. I know if I take a few coils and caps I can control the output to be more or less continuous so the motor will be running smoothly. It is not over unity but will allow for many many miles with out needing to charge up the initial batteries used to power the power coils. Seems strange that it has not been done or even talked about here. Sounds like the smoking gun for all EV's and the auto manufactures don't want this out. I know it will work.
> 
> Ima


 Not a bad concept at all. The guys here are experts in their fields mate and will state their comments for or against freely.
Take them and use their thoughts to further develope your concept matey.
I have one question, there will be an obvious heat issue but could be an additional power source beyond the concept proper or are you going to be suppressing said heat with some form of coolant?


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

eruera said:


> Not a bad concept at all. The guys here are experts in their fields mate and will state their comments for or against freely.
> Take them and use their thoughts to further develope your concept matey.
> I have one question, there will be an obvious heat issue but could be an additional power source beyond the concept proper or are you going to be suppressing said heat with some form of coolant?


"I know my coil takes in 12 volts and puts out a bit over 20,000 volts. More than enough to power an AC motor. "

I think that you guys are confusing your terms. While 20kV is a lot of voltage, voltage alone is not a measure of energy. Volts times Amps equals watts. A watt is a measure of energy. Power is energy applied over time and results in terms like horsepower or kWh (kilowatt hours).

Look up the definition of energy and the definition of power and you should be able to figure out the flaw in the reasoning of this concept.

Eric


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## Damann (Jun 28, 2010)

I could just use a stepdown and step it to like 96 volts and that should give me enough amperage to run the motor. That for sure will work. I am not looking to go very fast. Mostly around town on the back streets. Mostly for fun. Just to show it can be done. I would still like to use that high voltage but after some reading see that most motors only take small voltages. So stepping it down to a respectable level for running a motor.

Ima


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Damann said:


> I could just use a stepdown and step it to like 96 volts and that should give me enough amperage to run the motor. That for sure will work. I am not looking to go very fast. Mostly around town on the back streets. Mostly for fun. Just to show it can be done. I would still like to use that high voltage but after some reading see that most motors only take small voltages. So stepping it down to a respectable level for running a motor.
> 
> Ima


Nope. if you start with 40A at 12V (480 watts) you'll end up with 5A at 96 (480 watts) only if you don't lose anything in the process and you will lose some with every voltage conversion. Bicycles use 400 watt systems. Golf carts run with 4000 watt systems. Cars use 10,000 to 20,000 watt systems or more. High voltage only allows you to run thinner wires. You need to start thinking in watts, volts times amps, not just volts.

The easiest way to avoid your efficiency losses is to run an electric motor directly off your batteries. Adding anything else decreases your efficiency. Really. 

Eric


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Eruera
I think you should build your apparatus if you really believe it will work.
And then open source it for all to test and document your results. 

The problem for us is that so many like you have come before with what they believed was a revolutionary idea. Then when encouraged to build it and produce verifiable evidence.......well........they all disappear never to be seen or heard from again. 
And we can't help but notice that the world is unchanged by all their claims..........so we must assume that either the idea didn't work or they were unmotivated to see it through to completion.

Your concept appears simple enough to build in your own garage or a machine shop without busting the bank to get a prototype built. And if it really works, I could give you the names of dozens of Venture Capital Firms who would trip over each other to mass produce your idea. You would become imminently wealthy and would have contributed to the advancement of mankind. 

So, prove everyone wrong..........go build it.......but I'm betting that aside from a few more posts here and maybe on some other public forums............we won't be hearing from you anytime soon.

Cheers Matey


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Voltswagen said:


> Eruera
> I think you should build your apparatus if you really believe it will work.
> And then open source it for all to test and document your results.


Hasnt he already made a big deal about Date of conception for his ideas and talking to people(I read as laywers) about possible patent infringement?
He has posted his ideas here and if anyone ever comes up with anything close, by any means comprable, he'll probably sue.
Open source? Not likely.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

He could open source it.
Just apply for a patent and he's protected. It doesn't even have to work to get patent protection on the idea and you don't even need a working prototype.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2010)

> He has posted his ideas here


Vaguely stated at best with nothing substantial in the way it will work. He's not even willing to make a prototype. 12 months testing? It can be proven with a simple garage device or in his case proven it won't work. But no he wants to bilk people out of money first before he reveals it won't work and he will take the money and just disappear. That is what he is after. 

He did not have much to say about Damann's idea either and he asked what he thought. Now Damann's idea is pretty much odd at best and I have no doubt it won't work but he's asking and thinking. He has stated pretty much a solid hypothesis and with that anyone could cobble up something to give it a try. He said he was going to build a simple one and see if he can get a small motor to run. He says it will run. I say maybe but what happens once a load is put on the motor if it does happen to run somewhat. 

Oh and that load that Eruera mentioned is not a load you carry but a resistance load on the motor. Two totally different things. Put a load on your motor with your idea. That is what usually kills these garage ideas. Some go as far as getting them to spin up a motor but with no load. Dump a big load and see what happens. An LED is not a load. 

Pete


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Damann's concept will run, but it will result in a loss. The problem is the Conservation Laws of Energy. 

Basically stated Energy In cannot = Energy Out + 
If the + results from another source then it must be subtracted from Energy Out. 
Hey, we could all buy Boost Converters (very expensive) to increase output but total Energy Out is still less than total Energy In. Just a boost in voltage does not defy physical law. 
Or in Damann's idea use a Buck Converter to step down the voltage but even the best are only 95% efficient. The other 5% is a loss. 

But hey, don't take our word for it.......go build a small prototype. You will either come back and say "Gheeze! You guys were right." or we will never hear from you again. Either way it will be a learning experience for you. 
Like Pete said...........Go do your homework.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2010)

I had an interesting thought? 

Ima wrote some fun stuff but got to looking at the name. 

I think he is having a poke at someone here 

Pete


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Ha, check this out!
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25274/

"Simpsons did it!!!"


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