# Hat_man's EV planning thread



## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

As for the project this is what we are thinking.

A small in-town errand runner and grocery hauler with the ability to drop down a gear at a stoplight every now and again and turn some heads. Not a daily driver by any means as it's a 65 mile drive one way to work with no real option for re-charging. 

Range: 20-30 miles. 

Performance: Top speed of 55 MPH but 90% of it's driving will be in town at 30-35 MPH. Good to better acceleration, but not a "track car".

Budget: Not set in stone. As this is a long term project, we will buy components as they become available. The budget may start off a little stingy, but I'm sure will expand over time. We figure it may be about $10k by the time we are done, but are hoping for a bit less. Good common sense will prevail.

Parts already considered: We are still deciding on a donor car but have narrowed it down a bit (more later). We are thinking a forklift motor to start and a good "store bought" controller. As for batteries, it depends. The more I read on here it looks like a Leaf or Volt salvage might be the way to go, but that is a bit farther down the road. Transmission as opposed to direct drive. I don't mind a stick and neither does The Old Man (Dan the Man may never be able to "legally" drive it). It gives options and is something we are familiar with. We haven't even looked into chargers and other items yet. Research and design, then buy and build. That's the theme.


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## raphen (Jan 11, 2017)

My suggestion is to use a pickup as the conversion. They are overall more value and multi-functional. The stronger chassis can hold more weight for batteries and hauling stuff. They can support more solar panels to be used as a remote generator or long range. If you are going use leaf batteries maybe there is an easy way to mount the pack, plug-in play style. 
Happy Converting!


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

The donor cars we are considering are: 

Honda CRX: Preferably an hf but a dx or si will work. This is our first choice. Somewhat sporty with very good aero (Cd of about .29). Lightweight at between 1800 and 2200 lbs. depending on year and model. A hatchback giving access to a battery compartment where the fuel tank and spare tire used to be and still leaving some "cargo" area. The unknowns are, being FWD how the engine bay lays out with the trans-axle and how much rear suspension upgrading might be needed for the battery weight.

Opel GT: Definitely sporty but surprisingly not as aerodynamic with a Cd of .38 Lightweight at about 2000 lbs. Handles very well and very unique. You just don't see many of these mini Corvette's anymore. More standard drive train layout being front engine RWD. The downside seems to be battery placement. It seems like building a compartment behind the seats is about the only option. I would imagine this makes accessing and servicing the battery pack quite a chore. I'm sure the rear suspension would have to be beefed up as well.

Fiat x 1/9 or Porsche 914: We put these together as they are similar on most aspects. Mid engine RWD. Sporty and lightweight. Both have a Cd of about .36 or .37 and weigh in at around 2000lbs to 2100 lbs. Both have a "trunk" area but after motor, controller, charger, and batteries it leaves very little room for cargo if any at all. As with the other choices so far, a suspension upgrade will probably have to happen.

Dodge Rampage: This was a unique choice. Definitely not sporty (some would say rather ugly) but there are body kits available for them. A little heavier at 2400 lbs. Not a clue on the Cd but it can't be all that good. Body modification may be possible without the ICE. A big plus is the load rating was a true half ton. Lots of room and capacity for batteries and cargo without having to chop up the floor of the bed. Handles more like a car than a truck and is FWD.

If anyone has any feedback on these choices, or any other options for that matter, please let us know.


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks raphen. We almost considered using my old Ranger for some of those very same reasons, but it is still running strong and would be a shame to convert it now. If the engine ever gives out it would make a great donor. I've had it for 10+ years now and almost 170k miles of my own. (It had 97k when I bought it) I think I got my $4000 out of it and then some.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Hat

What about something like the "Device"? - it cost me less than your $10,000 - about $8,000 and it's great fun

Even if your lad couldn't get a driving licence he may be able to drive at Auto-crosses

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks Duncan for thinking of Dan. There are plenty of country roads around here to let him have some fun if the day ever comes. Even if I have to trailer it home because it doesn't have enough power to make it there, he will get to drive it many times over. It may not be all over town, but he'll get to enjoy his "creation". We wanted to stay with a car or truck as there are some built in safety factors even in the older models. There is a lot of research to be done first. This is step 1. Driving may be step 7253.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Hat

There is a lot of work and cost in doing any type of conversion - so you should be thinking about ending up with something special and unique

IMHO converting a "car" or even worse a truck is not going to give you that

The Opel Gt, X19 , 914 - or other similar sports cars would give you something unique and fun

As far as the "Built in safety" is concerned - you lose that with anything "old" - but almost anything with that built in will be much more difficult to convert because of the on-board computers

Although you can get a Mercedes SLK230 quite cheap now - that would have most of the modern safety stuff and still be great fun


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## EVTechsFL (Jan 10, 2017)

I always thought that the "World's Slowest Sports Car", the Karman Ghia would be a Great choice. 
I've seen a 914 and it looked and worked well. It had Lithium cells and had a high range. They had wanted to convert a Ghia also, but had the opportunity to obtain the 914 first.
The Opel GT, as you already are aware of, has no "trunk" or hatch to access the rear compartment. :>(
The X1/9 will most probably have already returned itself to the earth by way of oxidization, or be in the immediate process thereof.
A Honda del Sol( I love the combo of Targa top and removable back light) comes to mind as well as a Toyota MR2. Maybe an "English Sports car without the leaks", the Mazda Miata?
Good Luck!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Sounds like a fun project and a great team to build it! My dad helped me with my original Toyota engine swap but had died before he got to see my EV project- but my son was in there with me on it, once I figured out how to get him engaged and working. Sounds like your son is a workhorse- mine had to be "used" the right way or he would slip away like a cat- fetching tools wasn't good enough for him for sure, he had to be tasked the right way.

Small, old and cool RWD cars have a lot to recommend them, says someone who converted a 1975 Triumph Spitfire and still has a face sore from the perpetual EV grin...They're easy to convert, cheap enough to find with a blown engine, and would suit your objectives without ever being boring. Li batteries are lightweight enough that with a modest range, no suspension upgrades are required because the weight is nearly the same or maybe a couple hundred pounds heavier than pre-conversion. Don't be a dumbass like me- buy one in good shape without rust, or you'll spend your life doing a "restoration", aka polishing a turd... 

Not the safest though. A used OEM EV such as a used Leaf would be safer, having the crumple zones and airbags, but where's the fun in that? Then again, I'd say my Spitfire is safer by 100x at least than any motorcycle...to each their own.

At minimum you'll be using batteries from a crashed Leaf, Volt or other EV. The LiFePO4 prismatic cells that I used are unaffordable in comparison.

People more confident with electronics and computers are going a step or two further, transplanting whole Leafs into their cooler cars. That of course would push you in the direction of FWD. Others are finding ways to re-use the power end of the inverter, putting their own simpler motor control circuitry in place, making it easier to re-use.

Once you're further along, specific questions will yield lots of help and answers, suggestions, debate...This site is a huge resource.

Best of luck!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Moltenmetal said:


> That of course would push you in the direction of FWD. !


Just stick the Leaf unit in the back! - that is what I intend doing next


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Cool- you figure it out Duncan, and I'll take a look at the feasibility of stuffing it into the back of my Spitfire...!


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the advice so far. 

We've decided that we DO want something special and not just a "standard" conversion. We were leaning towards an X 1/9 but have recently decided to explore the Mazda Miata and the Honda del Sol. The early versions weren't much more than 2000 lbs and would have a more modern look while providing better safety (crash test stuff) than the older Fiat. The Porsche 914 is still on the table but may be a bit harder to find here in the corn fields of Illinois. 

I have been wading my way through the Forklift Motor thread. Man, what a ton of information. We still think this is the best option for our build. As for batteries we do have some questions about the Volt and Leaf packs....

Does anyone have any dimensions on either of these battery units? I read that the Volt pack was about 400 lbs but haven't seen anything about physical dimensions. Same with the Leaf units. Can they be dismantled in such a way as to make the dimensions fit different compartments? 

Not having the donor car yet does make for more paperwork in the design stages but it will be all worth it in the end.

I'll keep researching the forums and the web for more information.

Thank you all again for the advice information and encouragement.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
There are a number of threads and youtube videos showing the Volt and Leaf battery packs being disassembled

My Volt pack was 288 Cells - set as 96 units of 3 in parallel 
It could NOT sensibly be stripped to that level as these were welded together

Sensibly it was 2 modules of 1Kwhr and 24v and 7 modules of 2kwhr and 48v
These 9 modules could be reconfigured as you liked - the only issue being the pipes for the liquid cooling
In my car I made two units each of 1 off 24v and 3 off 48v - and put them in the "engine bay" 
The last 48v module is on a shelf awaiting a purpose


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## pkirchman (Dec 25, 2016)

Hi,
Here is the page with the specs on the leaf batteries: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_specs

I got a leaf battery for about $3600 from a salvage yard in Virginia. Shipping to Florida, surprisingly, was only about $150. I made sure to get them to send me a picture of the console first, showing that the pack had full capacity (12 bars on the far right of the console).

I also got a 2000 miata that they will be going into. 

I'll probably start a thread once I get started.


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Hello again everyone,

We have been doing more research and we have a new question for you all. At one point we had narrowed down our donor vehicle to the Fiat X1/9 and a Honda CRX. After reading some of the posts we thought we would include the Mazda Miata and the Honda del Sol. The two new choices are more readily available (albeit at a higher initial cost) and to us will be something special when we get done. Both are a bit heavier than the first choices. 

When I first started thinking about a conversion (the first time around) weight was a big factor because the weight of lead acid batteries made a conversion a bit heavier than the de-ICE'd donor. Lithium batteries I don't even think were being considered back then. 

Now with Lithium being available maybe weight isn't quite the issue that it was back then? Our original choices used weight as a big factor and the new choices are still fairly light weight. Now I realize weight still plays a factor. I haven't seen any Escalades or Hummers being converted. So what is a reasonable, approximate weight of a donor? 

The biggest reason I ask is we are currently investigating a donor about 3 hours from us that is very sporty and weights about 2600 lbs in ICE form. I know a Volt weights about 3800lbs and has a limited range on all electric. Will a donor weighing in at 2600lbs be challanged for range?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Hat
The basic rule of thumb is that when you ditch all of the dino burning bits and replace them with electric drive you reduce the weight

Then you have to add the batteries!
With Lithium at about 100Km of range you will have brought your car up to about the weight it was with the IC bits

So that is the easy bit - if you want more range you either need to increase the weight or do some more dramatic lightening

The Volt has a relatively small battery as it is a hybrid - 16Kwhrs
The Leaf was 24 Kwhrs (I think the new one is 30 Kwhrs)

If you want more range - need more batteries!
There does come a point where the extra weight of more batteries gets you on a death spiral - with Lead acid that was about 50 miles 
With Lithium it's a lot higher - 200 miles???


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks Duncan.

If 2600lbs is a doable starting weight then we are going to go after this donor. We aren't looking for great range now. Especially since it may be a few years until this is finished. By then maybe a "new" battery chemistry will be out and an upgrade will be in order. But a range of 30 miles is what we are shooting for. I still have to research the Volt batteries. It seems the whole Volt pack is about 400lb and maybe all of it isn't used? 30 miles would be great and if the design goes a bit farther then wonderful. But that is farther down the road. (pun intended LoL) We are hoping this donor works out.


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## ken wont (Jul 6, 2016)

Weight is important. How important depends on your driving environment.
If you do a lot of stop and go or hill climbing, weight is a big factor.
If most of your driving is done at a steady high speed, aerodynamics becomes more important.

For some people a lighter weight, high drag donor is a better choice and for others a sleeker slightly heavier donor would be a better choice.

For some people looks or price are all that matter!


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## EVTechsFL (Jan 10, 2017)

The Wheego LiFe is a 2700lb car that uses Voltronix LiFePo4 260 a/h cells in a 36 unit pack to achieve 31kwh. This allows the car speeds up to 65mph and a potential of 100 mile range. They sold about 80 cars of this type. 
So, hopefully this helps in you equations.
PS They weigh approx 20lbs each cell.


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Well unfortunately the donor car fell through. It was a Mazda MX3. Neat looking little car. It has made us look at possibly a Mazda Miata now. The Honda CRX is still on the table but the Miata's seem to be a bit more plentiful and the NA (1st generation) weigh in at around 2100 lbs ICE'd. There seems to be a few of them either already done or in progress (from the garage here and at EValbums) so I think we can find some guidance if we need it. And I'm sure we will.

We have been trying to research the Leaf battery packs also. It looks like the simpler of the two between that and a Volt. I posted a question in the Battery section to try and learn some more. Videos are nice, but you can't ask questions very easily. Electrical things aren't new to me but in this type of configuration it is definitely a learning curve. 

The drawing board plan for the moment is the Miata (but again maybe a CRX), DC power and probably a forklift motor. (unless someone has a Warp 9 just lying around collecting dust  ) I have seen a few abandoned forklifts in the next town over and need to stop and ask if they are for sale or being parted out. Controllers are still needing to be investigated but I think we are leaning towards Curtis unless someone has a better choice. We are keeping the transmission in whichever donor we use.

We haven't abandoned this project. We just want it to be right. It's not about the destination, but more about the journey.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a few EV conversion threads here of cars that I have converted. My first three were Metros, Which make a great chassis, depending on what your goals are. While the Metro is not the worlds sexiest car, it just so happens that the Metro was the king of MPG as an ICE vehicle, and of course they become the king of watt hours per mile in the case of being converted to electric. At the price of lithium, it is nice to be able to buy less of it to go the same distance. Another neat perk to the Metro chassis is that there is very little to convert besides the motor. At 1600 lbs for the earlier Metros, and 1800 lbs for the later Metros, you can get some pretty nice acceleration out of them as well. I have no problem running over 100 miles range in my latest Metro conversion, and no problem getting it up to 100 mph. Anyway, just thought I would drop my 2 cents on the chassis ideas, since I am partial to that chassis.... Good luck in whichever chassis you end up selecting.


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks evmetro. I really like the unique and "cool" older cars though. We decided that if we were going to do a conversion it had to be special. I think we've found a donor. Waiting on a return call now. Should be picking it up next weekend. I'll post some pics in a bit.


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

This is the new donor. So far it all looks good for a pick up next weekend. Price is perfect at $400 for a low budget start.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

O goody- a TR7!

Looking forward to seeing what you do with it!


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## hat_man (Jan 2, 2010)

Well the new TR7 is now mine. But there is one problem. For the price the guy was selling at ($400) I assumed it didn't run. I had no problem with that. The engine was coming out anyhow. But it does run. The carbs are real gunky and it has old fuel in the lines, but it turns over and tries to fire. Now, I'm torn. I have always like the TR7's and it was always a possible donor even though we didn't list it. They are a little hard to find, especially the hard tops. So again, I'm torn.

Do we restore it as an ICE beings it has a salvageable original engine and trans (until I do some real digging I have to assume they are original and "numbers matching".) and wait for a different donor? Or do I spit it up and try and sell the engine to a collector or restorer and do the conversion? 

We are leaning towards doing a full restoration as an ICE and finding a Miata instead to do a conversion on. The Miata's are a bit easier to find and parts are readily available. I believe there are even adapter plates available. It won't be nearly as unique as the TR7 but maybe the fact that it's an electric conversion makes it unique enough? 

If anyone has ANY advice we are all ears.

Thanks


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm biased
IMHO a hardtop TR7 is something that I would sell to somebody who wanted one (not me)
If it's not a convertible then it's not a sports car!


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Your call, mate: if the car is in restorable condition with a working engine, it might be worth selling for a profit and picking up something a lot less rare (like a Miata).

Depends what you like, really

I'm with Duncan though- a hard-top isn't a sports car, and I never liked the TR7 personally. So I'd ditch it in favour of a Miata if it were mine.

Getting rid of the engine and tranny from the TR7 to the right user will be possible but probably not all that profitable for you.


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