# why not do this



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Besides the difficulties of charging and discharging the batteries simultaneously your regenerative braking back axle would be like driving with the hand brake on. The extra power required to overcome its resistance would cancel out any benefit and then some except if you only turned it on when you wanted to slow down and weren't discharging the main batteries. Most braking needs to be biases towards the front i.e. to generate more braking effort on the front axle than the back. To brake predominantly on the rear axle has a destabilising effect on the car and is liable to cause the car to spin.


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

Monotor your on the right track. This will give you extra milage and possibly cut down on the battery bank thus cutting weight slightly. When you drive your alternators from the rear axle gear up and
use afreewheel flywheel that way when you stop the alternators will still be spinning(power-supply/charging) for a while before slowing down. As for there being resistance with alternators thats debateable. Charging and discharging of batteries is no problem at all. Theres no way the vehicle would ever go into a spin.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

I'd have to agree with John. From what I've seen, regenerative Braking can offer quite a lot of friction if you have it "turned up". For example the e-box from AC Propulsion can use it's adjustable regen braking to bring the car to a stop without pressing down on the brake! 
You wouldn't want that sort of braking on your back wheels as when you press the brake, most of the energy is put upon the front wheels. The back becomes lighter and your back wheels will lock up easier than you think.
Putting regenerative braking in your car can extend your range up to about 10% from what I've heard. 

However, you can't simply chuck a bunch of generators in an EV and expect it to recharge the batteries forever while driving. It just won't work and is quite a common question. (Just in case that's what you're trying to do and I mis-read your post) Regenerative _Braking _however does work.


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

You can gain more than 10% range depending on how you configure system. There is very little resistance with alternators as far as I know, but will get advice from an electrical engineer and get back to you on that 1.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

If you are talking about having motors generating power WHILE you drive via the back axle, no that is impossible.

That's called perpetual energy.

One Motor turning another Motor to generate infinite energy.
This is impossible, I will not argue about how it is impossible.

If you don't believe me, take two R/C car motors link them together then wire them together and turn both the shafts together and watch what happens.

The only thing that does add mileage to an EV is a method called regenerative breaking.

Basically instead of wasting your kinetic energy by using your break pads and turning your kinetic energy into heat via friction you instead turn your drive motor into a generator.

When you stop with regenerative breaking your motor turns into a generator and generates energy back into your batteries, the resistance provided by the generator making this power is what is used to stop your EV.

This does NOT mean all of the energy you've been using for driving gets put back into your batteries, it's only a small fraction.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

An alternator can draw a lot of power.

To find this out, put your car on high idle with the A/C and fan on high, headlights on and any other accessory that you might have.

Now pull the energising wire from the back of the alternator and listen to the engine speed up. A tachometer will also the show the rpm change.

An alternator puts out more power at a slower speed than a generator, which puts out more power as you increase the speed.

Won't help your EV enough, plus it would be dangerous.


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

Step outside the square and you see things more clearly. The so called experts would have you believe that it is impossible because they want you to remain dependant on limited milage and refueling.
Its similar to perpetual energy but not in its entirety and it is possible.
In the late 1880s Nikola Tesla was suppresed for his invention to produce free energy(electricity) to the world. In 1930 he developed an electric converted car with a motor 1meter in length and 65cm dia. using the free energy. waterpoweredcar.com/teslacar


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Considering the poster is a newbie, I think it's best if we keep this particular thread based on technology that can be bought off the shelf. I don't think Monotor would be keen on researching and developing a free energy motor etc.

In which case Monotor, I'd suggest looking into regen braking on your future EV. Make sure your controller has that as an option. My Curtis brand controller doesn't unfortunately but that's pretty normal for many DC controllers out there. Zapi controllers have DC regen I believe? Anyone know for sure?


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

You may as well drive a hybrid cause thats all it will ever amount to.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Testit and u shall know said:


> You may as well drive a hybrid cause thats all it will ever amount to.


It's good that you're passionate about free-energy systems, however the best place for that controversal topic is the "free energy" discussion thread available here.

In the meantime, I'd recommend using regenerative braking as it's technology available right off the shelf - perfect for the beginner!


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

I will try and illuminate by hanging some numbers on the problem though I have the feeling this will just get me classified as an "expert" and hence automatically part of some giant conspiracy to suppress. Say a car required 10 kW of motor power to push it along the road at your desired cruising speed. If you decided to put an alternator or generator on the back axial capable of generating 10 kW of electrical power that alternator would require a shaft power of 10 kW multiplied by the inverse of its efficiency say 90%. 10 kW * 1/0.9 = 11.11 kW. That required shaft power would generate a torque on the back axle opposing the motion of the vehicle. Power equals torque (Nm) time’s revolutions in radians/sec I think. The motor driving the vehicle consumes 10 kW of electrical power would have an efficiency of about 85% so the shaft power generated by it would be 10 kW * 0.85 = 8.5 kW of shaft power. This shaft power is required to overcome the rolling resistance of the tyres and the aerodynamic drag and so is consumed to just maintain an equilibrium condition at the desired cruising speed (on flat level windless road). The difference in the shaft power driving the vehicle (8.5) and the power consumed slowing the vehicle (19.61) would be a short fall of -11.11 kW (look familiar?). This balance would come from the momentum of the vehicle and the vehicle would quite quickly slow to a halt. You can be led to the false conclusion that an alternator doesn't take much energy to spin by hand spinning an electrically disconnected alternator.
By the way I believe Tesla was into wireless energy transmission and that the energy still had to be conventionally generated so while it would have been free to the end user it wasn't free to the provider hence its economic failure. Such a device could have powered free roving cars and aircraft without batteries from a fixed energy source but there would be nothing to stop someone else with an energy receiver from exploiting your supply and overloading it (assuming the receiver could be light enough and energy dense enough for vehicle applications).


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## monotor (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes I am a newbie but ive done some research and just thought I would throw it out there.I am a mechanic and have built several cars and motorcycles.There are just some questions that I have.Im really looking forward to builing an Ev just have to do alot more research before i start my project. Or those dvds and books worth anything or can anyone suggest a reliable how to book.

1. just for numbers sake. If I have a 144 volt system on my EV and use 6/24 volt alternators running off a drag axel on the rear of the car would I blow up the controller or destroy the batterys.

2. 12 volt batterys

3.would the amps from the alternators would have to be same as the system?


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## Bugzuki (Jan 15, 2008)

Doing that would be just like adding another battery in parrallel with the battery pack, except that it would not add any distance to the car. Alternators do cause drag. 

Think about it on you gas engine. When the fan belt starts to loosen, you get the belt squill in the morning when you start up. This is do to the extra draw on the alternator untill the battery is fully charged. Then the squill goes away.

The Hybrid I built at Western Washington University had a regen mode. This mode would allow you to regen the batteries while driving with the Natural gas engine. When in this regen mode you could always feel the resistance from the motor. In fact you could turn the regen up so far that the front wheels would lock up. In all power generation and transfer systems there is an effecience loss. You can not convert power from one source to another without producing heat. At least not with current technology. 

The spinning disc idea could help produce some power while stopped, but you also have to use power to get it spinning. Maybe it would work to start it spinning while braking and then regen from it while stopped.


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Any system of multiple alternators and flywheels will just add a lot of weight and be more complicated than just buying a Motor and Controller system that can use Regenerative breaking.

There's an old saying: "Don't try to reinvent the wheel.".

If you want to recapture your kinetic energy just buy a system that handles regenerative breaking it's all simple to set up and extends your range without adding any weight.


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## CedarStrip (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry Monotor.. would not work.. essentially you would be hooking an electric motor to an altenator and running wires from the altenator back to the electric motor and expecting this arrangement to run forever and even providing some additional energy to charge batteries..


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

monotor
The idea is not completely floored as the sceptics would lead you to believe.
www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ click on 6) Electromatic Motor Car.
The system works by wiring the batteries to act as capacitors once the vehicle is moving, while the alternators keep the batteries charged. With a 200 mile range between recharge thats pretty good going for 1976. 
Yet another invention suppresed that sceptics turn a blind eye to.
Whats the point of travelling 30 miles only to have to turn around and limp another 30 miles back home.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Quote; - "That this vehicular mass has within it a surplus of energy. We are enabled to remove a part of its stored kinetic energy momentum without reducing the speed of the vehicle."

Kinetic energy equals half the mass times the velocity squared (KE=1/2.m.V^2). If you reduce the kinetic energy stored in the vehicles momentum either the mass of the vehicle must shrink or the velocity must reduce, and as the mass of the vehicle is fixed the velocity must reduce. The above quote from the article is hence untrue. The law of the conservation of energy say's so. The definition of kinetic energy say's so.

If you really want to defy the laws of physics go ahead. Nobody here can stop you bashing your head against that brick wall if you really must they can just advise you that it is there and try and save you some pain.


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

Dear John

60miles or 200+miles?
If you want to limit your milage be my guest.
It's already physically tested and proven whether you like it or not.
Now one can close their eyes at night and wake up each mornin and say to themselves "it's impossible, it wasn't real, it was just a fantasy".
As for a little pain or for that matter a whole lotta pain it's all worth it and it feels good


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

If you want to see a simple way to make a free energy or perpetual motion machine check out this video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6530165466308380947 its 10 mins long but just skip to the last 3 mins, its the cool part, the rest is just a bunch of talk about aliens and crap like that, it it doesn't really mater just watch the last 3 mins to see something cool.


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## Bugzuki (Jan 15, 2008)

Those magnet motors are kind of cool, but who knows how much torque they have. How many of them would it take to run a 100 watt light bulb? I guess the only way to find out is to try it.


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

I actually just tried this out, I'm playing with it right now, I had all the magnets I just needed some pvc pipe, and it sort of works. It will spin for a little bit by then the magnet balances out and just stops, but if you could fine a way to have it always be unbalanced I think it could work.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

In retrospect, I think the idea of putting a generator on an EV's wheel is an excellent idea. While it would reduce the EV's range, it would also give us all an example to demonstrate to people that ask the common question Monotor innocently asked. 
Here's an example many of you may have already seen. It's quite good for a laugh if nothing else.

Anyone care to take photos/video of a motor connected to a generator and measure the volts/amps of the input, and the volts/amps of the output to show what happens?


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

lol that's a funny video Gav.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:
"The idea is not completely floored as the sceptics would lead you to believe.
www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ click on 6) Electromatic Motor Car."

The person that dreamed up that project isn't even smart enough to understand gear ratios in the two differentials.

A 2.8 to 1 does NOT turn the wheels TWICE as fast.
Kinetic energy has nothing to do with this car project.

What a waste of time that website is!!!!

Let's get back to EVs and not dreaming impossible dreams....


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## houseoffubar (Nov 18, 2007)

KiwiEV said:


> In retrospect, I think the idea of putting a generator on an EV's wheel is an excellent idea. While it would reduce the EV's range, it would also give us all an example to demonstrate to people that ask the common question Monotor innocently asked.
> Here's an example many of you may have already seen. It's quite good for a laugh if nothing else.
> 
> Anyone care to take photos/video of a motor connected to a generator and measure the volts/amps of the input, and the volts/amps of the output to show what happens?


Gav, the really sad part is that with all that aerodynamic drag that thing probably has half it's original range!


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## houseoffubar (Nov 18, 2007)

Coley said:


> Quote:
> "The idea is not completely floored as the sceptics would lead you to believe.
> www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ click on 6) Electromatic Motor Car."
> 
> ...


 Here, here, This is the most ridicules thing I have ever read!!!

Monotor, Good for you, however for thinking out of the box, THIS WILL NOT WORK, but your next idea may!


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## Testit and u shall know (Jan 27, 2008)

Maybe when you run out of power you can give Al Gore or Mr Bush a ring and see if they'll give you a recharge. 
Hold on let me rephrase that last bit "sell you a recharge"


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Ioku said:


> I actually just tried this out, I'm playing with it right now, I had all the magnets I just needed some pvc pipe, and it sort of works. It will spin for a little bit by then the magnet balances out and just stops, but if you could fine a way to have it always be unbalanced I think it could work.


"and it sort of works".......

That is the main reason they haven't worked for hundreds of years....

A priest was supposed to have made one in the 1700s.....guess what, no body knows how he did or didn't do it.....


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