# Calb cam



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The CALB Cam series is the new kid on the block but with the quality reputation of CALB cells its pretty much a no brainer to get the best if you can. 

Pete


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

mrmeseeks said:


> This battery http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=301 appears to be a CALB battery but I couldn't find it on CALB's actual site. On top of that it appears to be significantly better than every other battery available except another battery from newenergy which I posted about before that is also suspect.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience using either of these batteries? Are they legit?


EVTV did some testing in a show not too long ago. Jack likes them and is stocking both the 72 AH and the 80AH sizes. For AC drive systems (lower current) they appear to be an attractive solution. For high current DC systems where you are trying to do a performance build they are less attractive. They are a good choice if you are trying to build a longer range EV. There is a 25 AH version that has a higher specific power output. I have not run the numbers to see if it would be appropriate for a street car. I know it isn't good for upper end drag racing.

Part of the battery selection procedure is knowing what you need. What is your goal for the car? (Dragster, Auto crosser, Street Racer, Daily Driver, Neighborhood Vehicle) There are probably other categories but those are the ones that come to mind and each needs a different kind of battery for optimum use. I wouldn't use the 72 or 80 AH CAM cells in the first three categories. They don't have the specific energy output so you would end up with an oversize pack to make up for it so it would be heavier than you want. But for a NEV or daily commuter with a necessary range of up to 150 miles they could be a really good choice.


----------



## Phaser (Jul 20, 2014)

mrmeseeks said:


> This battery http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=301 appears to be a CALB battery but I couldn't find it on CALB's actual site. On top of that it appears to be significantly better than every other battery available except another battery from newenergy which I posted about before that is also suspect.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience using either of these batteries? Are they legit?


Hi, I think you can only buy cells in plastic housings from CALB manufacturer and either blue or gray.....
http://www.ev-power.eu/CALB-40Ah-400Ah/?cur=1

CALB cells in aluminum case is not yet verified and can not be realistically get for good money.

Phaser.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Phaser said:


> Hi, I think you can only buy cells in plastic housings from CALB manufacturer and either blue or gray.....
> http://www.ev-power.eu/CALB-40Ah-400Ah/?cur=1
> 
> CALB cells in aluminum case is not yet verified and can not be realistically get for good money.
> ...


I know the EVTV store is stocking the 72 and 80 AH cam cells and probably EVWest is too. And Jack did a discharge test to verify capacity claims.

If you are building a daily driver these are a step forward as far as wh/kg and wh/li are concerned. They might or might not fit your particular application but they are more money. But if you have limited space and weight these might just be what you need.


----------



## Phaser (Jul 20, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> But if you have limited space and weight these might just be what you need.


If you need a good ratio of capacity and weight, in the LiFePO4 technology is probably the best producer Wina Battery. Their cells are in aluminum housings and parameters are verified.
http://www.ev-power.eu/WINA-30Ah-100Ah/?cur=2


Small problem may be with the relevant terminal jumpers because Wina jumpers is not available directly. But you can simply use jumpers from other dimensionally similar cells.
Conversion table of terminal jumpers.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Phaser said:


> If you need a good ratio of capacity and weight, in the LiFePO4 technology is probably the best producer Wina Battery. Their cells are in aluminum housings and parameters are verified.
> http://www.ev-power.eu/WINA-30Ah-100Ah/?cur=2


Someone else mentioned WINA batteries. I was interested because they seemed similar to the CALB CAM cells since both are in aluminum cases and both appear to use some kind of heat shrink film to insulate the outside of the aluminum case. I went to your link and punched the numbers into my spreadsheet of batteries. These are not even close to the CALB CAM cells. In general larger capacity cells have better specs so I will compare the 100AH WINA cell to the CALB CAM 72 AH. The WINA 100 AH cell has a wh/kg rating of 95.24 and a wh/li rating of 177.28. This compares unfavorably to the CALB CAM 72 AH cell with a wh/kg rating of 121.26 and a wh/li rating of 265.09. Unless I have copied some numbers wrong somewhere the WINA are closer to the CALB CA series. The CALB CA 100 cell has a wh/kg rating of 94.12 and a wh/li rating of 157.94.

Link to my spreadsheet: Doug's Battery Comparison Spreadsheet

I entered the WINA data immediately after the CALB info. If you find an error please let me know.


----------



## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

Yes, this Calb Cam series looks very much like Wina cells, which I use at my Mazda RX-8 conversion. However as much as I could try them, they do not offer such a performance as Wina does - Wina offers less voltage under heavy under big loads. It seems to be same chemistry as SE and CA packs, so I think it is better to buy something which is tested and available on stock in EU.

For example EV-Power is now offering SE series Calb cells for very good SALE price. This is very good opportunity to buy the cells for the same price as chinese would sell it to you, but they are already here in EU: http://www.ev-power.eu/index.php?li...istorder=asc&cl=search&searchparam=CALB-PROMO


----------



## VOITLEnergie (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: Calb CAM cells - real users?*

I am also looking for details on CAM cells. I saw the samples of the CAM models in Germany at CALB booth. 










Who has some real experience with these cells? The Chinese sales guy told me these cells are best design for high current charge and discharge for EV and traction applications.


----------



## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

The green VW Thing seen in the background is the only vehicle I know of currently in the works that is using the CAM series: http://97.87.150.78/

The batteries have only been available for about 6 months now and because of the price; I'm sure that is making them not exactly fly off the shelves.


----------



## lithiumlogic (Aug 24, 2011)

Apparently Jack Rickard's been seeing frame leaks due to the aluminum casing on the cells showing stray voltages / currents, what do you guys make of that? He's been sticking sheets of high density polyethene between each cell, but that does cut into the volumetric density ... he's not been able to fit as many cells as planned to the box.

I'm also a bit puzzled as to how this can be anything other than a rather worrying quality issue. Is it just capacative coupling? Seemed to be on a few examples, low current in other cases.. but isn't there a risk of a high impedance fault becoming a low impedance one?


----------



## pdove (Jan 9, 2012)

If you want the facts about these CAM Series cells watch this video starting at 52 min in.

http://media3.ev-tv.me/news051614-iPhone.mp4

He starts the test at about 1:06 into the video.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

lithiumlogic said:


> He's been sticking sheets of high density polyethene between each cell, but that does cut into the volumetric density ... he's not been able to fit as many cells as planned to the box.


Seems like it would be a lot smarter to use FR4. 0.005 inch would probably be plenty.


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Have any been cut open to see the internal construction?

The 787 Dreamliner uses a metal case GS Yuasa prismatic cell that was found to have a high impedance short between the electrodes and case (i.e. frame leak) due to the electrolyte being in contact with the case internally.


----------



## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

I think Jack maybe dissected one. He vaguely alluded to it when describing the internal construction in one of the shows. He went into some detail about it. I think it was the episode where he is in the shop with the green Thing describing the battery box and packs and the separating materials being used.

---

Edit:


49 minutes into this:


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

kennybobby said:


> The 787 Dreamliner uses a metal case GS Yuasa prismatic cell that was found to have a high impedance short between the electrodes and case (i.e. frame leak) due to the electrolyte being in contact with the case internally.


Do you have a link to that info ?
All the reports I have seen on the Dreamliner pack investigation could not pinpoint a cause of failure, only suggest that production methods MIgHT allow possible contaminants into the construction, and MAY have caused an internal cell failure.
..but no actual evidence of that in the inspected packs, ?


----------



## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

rtz said:


> The green VW Thing seen in the background is the only vehicle I know of currently in the works that is using the CAM series: http://97.87.150.78/


Is there more information about that conversion?

I was thinking to use the CAM cells for my project. In early 2014, I asked the
supplier for some real test results of the CAM72 cells and the supplier said
that this product has not been really available and had not been tested
in real applications.

30 kWh pack is lot of money to be be put into "CALB company test rabbit" position, so I had eventually purchased the WINA cells with well documented performance.

Also it seems that the technical specification has changed. I have the original
CAM72 datasheet from 2013. The data in the new 2014 datasheet are different, much worse than in the older datasheet.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

rtz said:


> The green VW Thing seen in the background is the only vehicle I know of currently in the works that is using the CAM series: http://97.87.150.78/


The Smart Car conversion that was done during EVCCon 2014 has the CAM 72 cells in it. I believe Jacks daughter did a drive around town video which made it onto the show and then kept the car as her own because she liked it so much. So the Smart conversion has been driven for about 6 months now.

There are probably a few others. They seem like nice enough cells.


----------



## VOITLEnergie (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: Calb CAM 72AH*

I try to collect some information about the CAM 72 cells. However the information is confusing. 

I see the real cells on the EVTV and other web pages are different from the samples shown by CALB. I noticed this original information:

- Aluminum shell for better cooling
(Is the case really "Alu" or is it just steel? The thermal performance 
of aluminium is quite different from that of steel.)

- Maximum constant discharge current: 216A (3C)
(The guy at the CALB booth said: 5C is no problem, but I cannot see any 
proof of the constant discharge currents to be 3C or 5C.)

Any comments?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

*Re: Calb CAM 72AH*



VOITLEnergie said:


> I see the real cells on the EVTV and other web pages are different from the samples shown by CALB. I noticed this original information:


The grey paint with silk screened printing on it that you find in the trade shows and booths is just paint. The blue on the real cells is a thin heat shrink plastic. Additionally the cells come with plastic pieces fitted to keep the metal cases from touching/rubbing on adjacent cells. Jack isn't using these but I think I would.



VOITLEnergie said:


> - Aluminum shell for better cooling
> (Is the case really "Alu" or is it just steel? The thermal performance
> of aluminium is quite different from that of steel.)


I am pretty sure they are aluminum. Not only does it look like aluminum but when you handle one you get the feeling that you could dent it with a fingernail. I think a good portion of the size and weight savings comes from the thin aluminum case.



VOITLEnergie said:


> - Maximum constant discharge current: 216A (3C)
> (The guy at the CALB booth said: 5C is no problem, but I cannot see any
> proof of the constant discharge currents to be 3C or 5C.)


Pretty sure Jack has done a 3C discharge test. No idea about 5C.


----------



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> There is a 25 AH version that has a higher specific power output.


A project I have going to keep me occupied while my electric Triumph GT6 sits 1200 miles away from me is a DIY electric-assist velomobile that will have some ass-hauling acceleration(0-40 mph faster than most new cars) and 50+ mph top speed, but legally, it would be an electric bicycle that needs no license, insurance, registration, tags, or title to be legally commandeered on Texas roads.

A 25AH CALB CAM cell would be ideal, but I haven't been able to find ANY information on it, let alone a place to buy them. 

My design calls for a safe LiFePO4 battery that can handle charge/discharge abuse indoors without catching fire, but the battery pack itself must be around 20 lbs or less due to the 100 lb weight limit for this vehicle to legally be a bicycle, and provide at least 1.2 kWh usable energy so that I can cover 200+ miles in an 8 hour ride with me inputting 100W as the rider to do 25-30 mph and the motor providing another 150-200W or so(200-250W draw from the battery). It also must provide at least 15 kW peak for a few seconds, for both random acts of hooliganism and embarrassing Mexican gang members riding around in 80s era Mustang 5.0s.

I like the CALB cells because of their reliability and decent peak power. However, I need anywhere from 48-128V for my design needs(depending on which motor/controller/gearing setup I go with). The smallest CALB CA cell I can find for sale is 40AH and the smallest CAM cell I can find for sale is 72AH. Both of those are too big for the voltage I need within the weight limit I need to conform to.

There are other LiFePO4 out there, but the CALBs have proven reliability, which I find to be more important than peak power, energy density, or cost.

A 25AH CALB would be a great size. Do you know where I can find them?


----------



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

no clue here, might consider 2p16s HW-40152S cylinders for 1.5kwh @ 30ah/51.2v though, for starters and fudge with the P or the S from there. Should be less than $800 for 1.5kwh. 

calb site only lists on the lowah side, a 40ah CA http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-626
and a 72ah cam http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-630
and a 20ah pouch (CAS) http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-631


----------



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

That CAS 20AH cell looks like a great choice. I wish that more info was available though. An 80V 20AH pack would weigh right in at 24 lbs, give me 15+ kW peak power, and allow 1.6 kWh on tap!


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

The Toecutter said:


> That CAS 20AH cell looks like a great choice. I wish that more info was available though. An 80V 20AH pack would weigh right in at 24 lbs, give me 15+ kW peak power, and allow 1.6 kWh on tap!


The charge/discharge curves they show are clearly not LiFePO4. You mentioned that that is a requirement...

Edit: The specs DO imply LiFePO4. So one of the two is wrong. Any one used these cells?


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

The Toecutter said:


> A 25AH CALB would be a great size. Do you know where I can find them?


I have seen them only in videos taken at trade shows. I think they were mentioned on EVTV when he got his first few cells. I keep thinking they will make an appearance some day.

Consider making a pack from Headway cells. And while it would be a lot of work the 26650 size A123 cells would probably work for you.

Best Wishes!


----------



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> I have seen them only in videos taken at trade shows. I think they were mentioned on EVTV when he got his first few cells. I keep thinking they will make an appearance some day.
> 
> Consider making a pack from Headway cells. And while it would be a lot of work the 26650 size A123 cells would probably work for you.
> 
> Best Wishes!


So the CALB CAM25FI and CAS20 are unobtainable?

I was hoping for a solution that didn't need a BMS and could use an inexpensive "dumb" charger. How reliable are the 15AH Headways when no BMS is used?

Those Headways look like a decent solution...

The CALBs would be preferred if they could be obtained.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

The Toecutter said:


> How reliable are the 15AH Headways when no BMS is used?
> 
> Those Headways look like a decent solution...


I have heard of people having bad ones crop up occasionally. I suspect that buying a couple of extras and testing them before you put together your pack would eliminate the issues. The biggest pack of them I have seen was the Rebirth Auto 911 Porsche.


----------



## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

dougingraham said:


> I know it isn't good for upper end drag racing.


That is the realm of RC Lipo batteries don't you think with 100C discharge capability?


----------



## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Hollie Maea said:


> The charge/discharge curves they show are clearly not LiFePO4. You mentioned that that is a requirement...
> 
> Edit: The specs DO imply LiFePO4. So one of the two is wrong. Any one used these cells?


What did you expect from Chi-Coms? They are not known for clarity or truth in advertising. Kind of like Tesla.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Sunking said:


> That is the realm of RC Lipo batteries don't you think with 100C discharge capability?


For drag racing 100C and greater are the only way to fly. Biggest problem is that they don't normally come with heavy enough wire. 10 gauge just doesn't cut it unless you do a lot of packs in parallel.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> My design calls for a safe LiFePO4 battery that can handle charge/discharge abuse indoors without catching fire, but the battery pack itself must be around 20 lbs or less due to the 100 lb weight limit for this vehicle to legally be a bicycle, and provide at least 1.2 kWh usable energy so that I can cover 200+ miles in an 8 hour ride with me inputting 100W as the rider to do 25-30 mph and the motor providing another 150-200W or so(200-250W draw from the battery). It also must provide at least 15 kW peak for a few seconds,


 With those requirements , your options are seriously limited to high end cells like the 20 Ahr A123 pouch (20S, 1P) or a very high grade 18650 cell pack (20s, 7p ) of LG or Samsung 3.0 Ahr, high output cells.
Anything else will either be too heavy or not give you the (unrealistic ?) burst power you think you want.


----------

