# Choice of frame



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Lion

The best advice I have been given is select something YOU want to drive,

It will take some time (years) to get your money's worth out of an EV so select something that you will want to drive for a few years


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Sound advice, thank you.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

neither vehicle is terribly aerodynamic, but the tracker will be lighter most likely. I used to think aerodynamics were the biggest factor but I have flipped and now think it is weight. If you do most driving under 50mph/80kph that will be more important anyway, as it will be if you have much in the way of hills, especially if it is a DC system with no regen.

There were one or two geo tracker conversions done around here (WA state, USA) assuming its the same body style there, they were able to get 16 6V golf batteries into them, so there is decent battery storage volume in the body style.

There is a lot to be said for converting a vehicle you like, but be sure it will also meet your needs and be doable within your budget as an EV otherwise it won't be any good to you. This means do the math on aerodynamics, weight, and efficiency to get to expected range for the proposed setup and make sure it will meet your daily range requirement without exceeding 80% discharge at the most, and ideally more like 50% discharge.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Excellent post thank you. I've heard about the aerodynamics being a huge factor, but I have to weigh that against getting a vehicle that I'd like to drive.

I understand that the Geo Metro is considered to be an ideal frame for a conversion, but to be honest... I am not sure that I like the Geo Metro. I'd rather get a tracker. I also live in a condo that has two parking spaces and thus I have to fit a Vectrix VX-1, a Honda Shadow, A Saturn Ion... and maybe a Geo Tracker in two parking spaces. 

Condo restrictions can be a pain sometimes, and that's not even counting the fact that I don't have a proper garage and may have to impose upon friends and family.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

there are lots of variables.

aerodynamics will be the biggest factor if you do all highway driving at higher speeds and mostly level. But most EVs get used for mostly local stuff with shorter freeway runs, hence the change in the advice I give out.

But to put the chassis selection in perspective, you might well get 25-50% more range out of the same battery in a 3 door metro vs, a 4wd tracker, depending on how and where you drive. Chassis makes a HUGE difference, so choose, but choose wisely.

I do believe that an ADC 9" won't fit in a metro however. too long. Don't know about the tracker. the ADC 8" however fits great if you do go that route.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Yikes. That's a huge problem. I already have the ADC 9 and a Open Revolt controller on order.

Sounds like it's going to be an S10 with SLA batteries then. I wouldn't be happy if I bought a vehicle that I couldn't fit the motor in.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Lionstrike said:


> I also live in a condo that has two parking spaces and thus I have to fit a Vectrix VX-1, a Honda Shadow, A Saturn Ion... and maybe a Geo Tracker in two parking spaces.
> Condo restrictions can be a pain sometimes, and that's not even counting the fact that I don't have a proper garage and may have to impose upon friends and family.


If one of your neighbors only uses one of their spaces perhaps you can rent their empty space for a few dollars a month.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Silly thought: you already have the ion......... could even have "kits" for them. Then no trips to what is left of dealerships for mundane engine parts.

Aerodynamics can't be worse than a dime or danger. (S10 or Ford to someone that don't have one)


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

My brother lives a few doors down from me but I don't think that he'd be willing to let me use his extra space on a permanent or even semi permanent basis. A couple of days he'd be cool with, but not indefinitely for sure. 

I do love my Honda Shadow too, chances are I'll just have to play vehicle tetris in the two spaces, and if the home owners association has a problem with that... well... tough. Nowhere is it written that I can't put a couple of bikes behind my cars if I want. It just makes things rough. I'll just have to jiu-jitsu my way around that I think.

Say, does that ADC 9 inch fit in a Geo Tracker? I think that the s10 and Ranger have curb weights of around 3350lbs. The tracker I think is like 2400 lbs. If that 9 inch motor would fit... I could shave off 1000 lbs over a light pickup.

I am probably hosed on the aerodynamics though which I am beginning to discover are increasingly important. I rode against a strong headwind in my Vectrix VX-1 on the way home today and my battery charge in terms of range got hurt by about 10% I think.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I really enjoy my Metros, and run a 9 inch motor in one and 8 inch motors in the other two Metros. I like an 8 inch motor for metros because they weigh far less, but the 9 is still a blast. Ultimately, Duncan's advice of converting what you really want to drive is the soundest advice I can think of. A pickup sounds like it could be easier to convert in the long run, and you could get the benefit of having all of your batteries centrally located. While it is not really a huge problem to have longer runs of cable interconnecting front and rear battery boxes, it is better to have them all in one box if you are able to have it that way.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Forgive me Sir, but I find myself a bit confused. You do run a 9 inch motor in one of your Metros? I was under to impression that an ADC 9 inch would not fit.

If it will indeed fit, should I reconsider the Geo Metro in my list of possibilities for a potential aerodynamic advantage?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Lionstrike said:


> Forgive me Sir, but I find myself a bit confused. You do run a 9 inch motor in one of your Metros? I was under to impression that an ADC 9 inch would not fit.
> 
> If it will indeed fit, should I reconsider the Geo Metro in my list of possibilities for a potential aerodynamic advantage?


The one that has the 9 is the first conversion in my signature below. I started out with an 8, (AC 35) and upgraded to a 9 (AC 74). You would have to check the dimensions of both motors to make sure that the one you want to use is not any longer than the AC74.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Well, I just had to pick up my jaw from the floor.

That build is really, really, really nicely done.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

It does look like an ADC 9 will fit in a Tracker:
http://evalbum.com/1333

or a Prism:
http://evalbum.com/1783

I dunno about a Metro.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just checked out the dimensions of the 4001 and compared them to the AC 74 that I run in my Metro, and your 4001 is smaller in length and diameter, which means that there is plenty of room for that motor in a Metro. One of the big reasons why I like this chassis is because these cars were the king of mpg, which also makes them the king of watt hours per mile. Lithium is not cheap, so using these cars for conversions makes a lot of sense if you want the best efficiency for your money. Everybody's needs are different, so having top efficiency may not be as important to you as having a certain look, style, seating, cargo area, etc. Only you know what is best. If you are after top efficiency, I would recommend the metro, and your 9 will indeed fit.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Many thanks. 

I am not incredibly wealthy, but I think I can get something on the road for about $5-6K.

I am just tired of being a slave to the pump, and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

It's also very probably going straight to lithium. I saw some real good prices on EVtradingpost, here, and on Ebay for used Nissan Leaf cells.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

My information about the ADC 4001 (9") motor not fitting in the geo metro came from Dave Cloud, who is known regionally for being a prolific converter of geo metros; he has probably done 20 or 30 of them all told over the last two decades or so. He had stated at one point or another that the 9" didn't fit in the metro. He always used the 8" motors.

However, he may be referring to a different year, body style, or who knows vs what you are looking at. There are different length 9" motors out there as well. The best thing to do is get out the tape measure. good luck.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Thank you for the information.

To be honest with you, Duncan's advice is sticking with me. I like the idea of converting a vehicle that I'd like even before conversion.

I know that a Geo Metro would represent the best possible option for me. It's a great aerodynamic car, but I want to take pride in driving something that I really love.

I am really leaning towards the s10 or ranger at this point. EValbum is replete with successful conversions of those light pickups. I think I've have more fun driving something like that, even if it takes a little more in the way of batteries and thus cost.

I've wrapped my mind around the fact that this isn't going to be cheap and indeed may well exceed my $5000-6000 budget. I'd like something on the road for around that, even if I have to start with lead acid, but this beast is going to run me a lot more than that long term.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

For the same BATTERY price as FLA you can get either Nimh from a Ford, lipo from a Nissan, or li ion out of a chevy from a wrecking yard. Down side is charger and operating issues increase.

My $.02 YMMV


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> For the same BATTERY price as FLA you can get either Nimh from a Ford, lipo from a Nissan, or li ion out of a chevy from a wrecking yard. Down side is charger and operating issues increase.
> 
> My $.02 YMMV


Nissan leaf cells are emerging as a really solid option.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Lion

I will expand on the "want to drive"

If you are trying to "save money" - you won't - the cheapest solution will be an old IC car

Here I'm going out on a limb -

You can't make a better car than the manufacturers 
You have to make one that they don't make

Me - I made a little sports car



I don't like pick-ups - I think a normal hatchback/estate plus a trailer makes a better solution

If you select a "normal car" - you will regret it
You should look at something - you -

Sports car
Hot rod
T bucket
cruiser


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

The more that I talk to you all about it, the more the project begins to solidify in my mind. I do think that it's going to end up being a pickup. 

There's a couple of reasons for this, one of which is that I could actually see myself driving it with a big ol' EV grin on my face. I am a big guy (about the size of an NFL lineman) and I am just not crazy about cramming myself in an old VW jetta for example.

The second reason is that I could easily throw one of the ebikes I've built on it functionally eliminating any range anxiety. Can't make the range? Why not get out the ebike and get there? I know that I can load up an ebike on about anything, but there's a difference between "can do" and "will do." I think that if I was pressed for time, I'd throw an ebike into a pickup in a heartbeat.

The third... and this sounds trivial too, is that I work at a place where most people are "truck people." Some of them HATE EVs. I've heard that EVs are, "for sissies", "stupid", "impractical."

Nonsense. 

Nothing would give me more real pleasure than electrifying a pickup... and then making it REALLY COOL.

That may cost a little more when it comes to batteries. I am still up for it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Lion

I don't like pick-ups - who cares!

Go for something that YOU like

How about one of these?


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Kind of reminds me of a Dodge Rampage. It's crossed my mind!

The difference I think is that I can get an old s10 on craigslist for around $500-$1000

I am also going to make mistakes along my way. Oh yeah... little "oops" mistakes... and "OMG, WHAT THE #[email protected]$#@ DID I JUST DO!!?!?" mistakes.

Now, if I am going to end up blowing something up... and eventually I will... would you rather blow up an old rusty s10, or a fine looking ride like that?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Lionstrike said:


> Kind of reminds me of a Dodge Rampage. It's crossed my mind!
> 
> The difference I think is that I can get an old s10 on craigslist for around $500-$1000
> 
> ...



There is a lot of work in making it go well,
I would say - don't go with the tatty old thing

Go with something you really want to drive - if (when) you blow something up - rebuild the sucker!

(And take pictures of the ...ooopppsss..)


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Oh believe me... there will most certainly be "oops."

I think that the chance of pulling this off without a single mistake is roughly equal to winning the lottery... seven times straight...

...and then combining the WINNING lottery tickets into a fully functioning form of self sustaining alternative energy that could be used to power the vehicle itself.

I am not counting on it.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Don't worry about your work buddies. First time I smoked the tires, most came around. It ain't a prius (thank dog).

The others were impressed with my $ 2.00 a day fuel bill. They big honking work trucks ain't noted for fuel efficiency.

It is also fun to hook cables to the battery leads and do stick welding in the parking lot.

You need to focus on stretch cabs. Standard cabs won't cut it for legroom.


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## Lionstrike (Oct 29, 2011)

Oh I am not too worried about my coworkers. I drive a Vectrix VX1. Now, that's far from an intimidating road hog, and I hear about that too.

I don't care.

My Vectrix? Maybe 200+mpg

What's their big diesel 1500 get again? 15mpg?

I rest my case. The problem is, the bitter, bitter cold in the Northeast USA during the winter. Last winter was ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL. I don't need another one of those. I can't drive the VX-1 with wind chill that can kill me.

I could ride a 4 wheel EV though... which brings me here.


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