# Spitfire engine is out



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The engine is out of the Spitfire...










By the way, does anyone need a used engine?









Now I need to order my new motor. The car will be a 120V system. I've done a lot of motor research (and of course made a spreadsheet) and have narrowed it down to a few choices:

ADC FB1-4001A, 9.1", ev-america.com, $1550, 143 lbs, Double Shaft
25.2 HP @ 120V Continuous
27.5 HP @ 120V 1 Hour
43 HP @ 120V 5 Minute
85 HP @ 120V Peak
40 mph range: 30.4 miles

ADC 203-06-4001A, 8", ev-america.com, $1350, 106 lbs, Double Shaft
21.7 HP @ 120V Continuous
24 HP @ 120V 1 Hour
37 HP @ 120V 5 Minute
83 HP @ 120V Peak
40 mph range: 24.1 miles

ADC L91-4003, 6.7", cloudelectric.com, $929, 85 lbs, Double Shaft / Reversible
16 HP @ 120V Continuous
17.9 HP @ 120V 1 Hour
31 HP @ 120V 5 Minute
72 HP @ 120V Peak
40 mph range: 23.8 miles

ADC X91-4003, 6.7", cloudelectric.com, $949, 87 lbs, Double Shaft
16/10 HP ??

D&D ES-31B, 6.7", electricvehiclesusa.com, $1154 (evparts.com may have it at $1085 though), Single Shaft
18 HP @ 96V

It looks like you get what you pay for (surprise surprise)... bigger more expensive engine = more efficient longer range. The car was 1800 lbs before I took out the (heavy) engine, so do I really need the ADC FB-4001A? A L91-4003 is 40% lighter and 40% cheaper. Excluding the pretty mountains in the distance, Phoenix is completely flat. I'll be moving to Texas in a couple years at which point I'll spring for Lithium Phosphates, but for now I'll just buy Lead Acids..

I've seen this topic come up several times before where people always regret not having that "extra power", but I like the idea of keeping the vehicle as light as possible (no power brakes...).

Opinions on my case? Thanks!


----------



## Deekman (Jun 29, 2008)

ClintK said:


> The engine is out of the Spitfire...


Wooo hooo!

I'm right behind ya buddy! (not a brokeback reference) I'll be pulling the bonnet tonight; probably the engine next week.

The Spit is so light, I think a larger motor is overkill for my goals. I don't know what your goals are, but if I can get it up to the speed limit and get back and forth to work on a charge, I'll be happy.

It turns out the motor I'm using can be wired with the poles in series or parallel. So I'm thinking of using a contactor to switch from parallel (more torque) to series (higher RPM) at some predetermined load/RPM.

-Deek


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Hey, Clint, welcome to the "I'm in the process of converting my Spitfire" club. I'm not a pro, by any means, and it looks like you've done about as much reading as I have. I've already made my motor decisions, but that doesn't mean I know what I'm doing!

I went with a WarP 9" and a Logisystems 750A controller. Both of those are probably oversized for this car, but I'm hoping to have a sprightly car when I'm done. I like a slow cruise on the highway, but a quick car for around town. This car is so light that you could easily get away with a smaller motor. As long as you're not in a hurry, you'll be fine.

My suggestions for you (if you'll have them) is to pressure wash the engine area and consider painting your frame. I painted everything from the front of my tub to the bumper and it looks great. I sprayed on a thick speckled paint. I'm sure when you're done with the vehicle people will want to have a look under the bonnet. Make it look nice, you know? Anyway just a suggestion.

Here are some questions for you. Are you keeping the clutch? Have you decided on which batteries? I'm going with 120V as well, but I haven't nailed down the battery choices yet. It's a tough decision.

Anyway, good luck with your Spit, and keep us informed on your progress.


----------



## tywhitaker (May 21, 2008)

Hello:
Also doing a Spitfire with the FB1-4001. My question for you guys.

Where do I go for the adapter hardware?
What is the magic number (I never had the engine)?

Thanks for the help.

Ty


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Are you talking about the adapter plate? Personally I am fabricating my own stuff. I have access to a machine shop, so it's not too difficult. I'm putting a 1/2" Aluminum plate between the transmission and the motor. I'm making the coupler, by just following what a local EVer is doing: http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/213

What magic number are you talking about, by the way? I am aware of no magic in my Spitfire (yet!).


----------



## Deekman (Jun 29, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> ...I went with a WarP 9" and a Logisystems 750A controller...


That car is going to scream. Are you keeping the trans? That kind of torque should make direct drive possible; assuming you can get to about 4K RPM.

-Deek


----------



## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh, I didn't know that you were doing a Spit. I guess I should have asked. 

I'll say the same thing that I did in my last post. Consider replacing the transmission with a Japanese unit. The Spit tranny is really weak. I rebuilt my spitfire's transmission at about 80k miles and it NEEDED it! I seem to recall that Datsun transmissions fit well. Lots of people have used them.

As for the brakes... hey, they're Spitfire brakes. You're in good shape. One of the more popular brake upgrades for MG Midget owners is to use the rotors off of a Spitfire. The Spit has larger diameter rotors.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Wow guys, great replies. To answer some questions... (and my questions are for all of course...)

Deekman,
My goals...
Right now my wife and I don't -need- a second car. I ride my bike to work and she rides the bus to school. Once she is done with school we'll have to have the two cars though. For now I'd like an easy cruiser (using Lead Acid). It should be highway capable, but it will rarely if ever see it (Phoenix is a perfect grid with plenty of auxiliary roads to take). Its acceleration should keep up with regular traffic without destroying the motor/batteries/controller, but I don't need to win any races. Range is just a bonus as I don't 'need' this car. The further the range the more I'll do with it but everything is pretty close. A reliable 20 miles is minimum, and 30 is more than enough. In 2 years when I'm back in Texas I'll spring for Lithium Phosphates that can go for 40+ miles range.

With my goals, do you guys think the 6.7" ADC L91-4003 will cut it? (By the way, is the ADC X91-4003 supposed to be better or worse? I've been reading conflicting performance.)

Bottomfeeder,
Someone else mentioned painting the engine bay. I should do it... maybe a project for this weekend? Any suggestions on waterproofing? I've got some ideas but just curious what other people were thinking.

I was originally planning on keeping the clutch, but after seeing how complex it will be to manufacture I'm going to scrap it. I've got a machinist friend that is helping me out for only pizza/beer (he just thinks this is a ton of fun). So for the motor/tranny, please correct me if I'm wrong: I need a simple coupler between the transmission shaft and the motor shaft, and I need a (1/2"?) aluminum plate to cover the rest of the bell housing / attach motor to tranny?

Batteries are to be determined. I've been using the Trojan J-150s in the EV calculator for initial performance results.

tywhitaker,
By magic number do you mean voltage? Sounds like 120V is popular for the Spit.

xrotaryguy,
Thanks for the heads up. The wiki/forums mention "modern transmission have synchros that help shift gears smoothly without the clutch". Is a 1978 Spitfire transmission considered modern? I've done clutchless shifting with an ICE before (and grinded quite a few gears), but I figure I can do that if Spitfires don't have synchros.

Depending on the performance of the L91-4003, I'm wondering if I can pull off all driving (forward & reverse) in just 2nd and just use the motor's reverse instead of the tranny. If that works out maybe I can just get a simple single-gear gearbox and scrap the transmission altogether. (I probably can't do that and reach highway speeds with that motor though.)

Thanks all!


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I think you'll easily get 40+ miles with lead acids in a Spitfire. It's not very aerodynamic, but it's small and light. And a soft touch on the pedal will get you far. Of course, I prefer the ability to show off every now and then, if nothing more than to dispel some EV myths. But, that's just my cup of tea. I'm sure that will wear off and I'll be driving slow to nurse the batteries soon enough.

I don't have much in the way of suggestions for waterproofing. I used Zolatone paint for my "under hood" (pic attached). Are you talking about electrical splash problems? Or are you worried about rust on the frame? I'm not worried too much about electrical shorts with water, but putting some plastic underneath the motor may keep everything clean and smooth out some aerodynamics.

You're describing the connection to the tranny exactly as I have it planned. I'm also going to put a plate on the rear of the motor to help hold it up. I'm going to use the old motor mounts for attachment points. It's pretty straightforward, as far as I can tell. 

Your machinist friend will be a very handy person to know!

Good luck!


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I forgot to mention, your Spit has synchros in every gear except 1st and R, but you'll only be going into those gears from a standstill typically, so you won't need them.

Now, of course, I don't know how long your synchros will last, but they are there.

If my Spit's tranny gives out, I'll probably try to replace it with something beefier. But, I might just wait for that to happen first.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> You're describing the connection to the tranny exactly as I have it planned. I'm also going to put a plate on the rear of the motor to help hold it up. I'm going to use the old motor mounts for attachment points. It's pretty straightforward, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Your machinist friend will be a very handy person to know!


Definitely. He and I were looking at how to support the engine, and we were also looking at the old mounts. The current idea is to attach a metal cradle between the two old attachment points that has a 6.7" (or 8" depending on the motor) diameter bend for the motor to rest on. Then add a tight strap that runs over the top of the motor connected to the cradle. That won't stop any rotation from the torque generated by the motor but that should be handled by the plate fixed to the transmission.

Opinions? Should I be careful to not have the motor support too rigid? Does it need some flex for vibration / bumps in the road or the tighter the better?


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I would definitely use the old rubber engine mounts (or buy new ones). I believe that you'd want to keep the drivetrain just slightly floating on the rubber to absorb bumps and turns. Both sides of the WarP motors have bolt holes, but I'm sure that's not true for all motors in general. Using a a cradle and strap method will probably be sufficient for you.

Good luck!


----------



## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

ClintK said:


> Someone else mentioned painting the engine bay. I should do it... maybe a project for this weekend? Any suggestions on waterproofing? I've got some ideas but just curious what other people were thinking.


Painting the engine compartment is a decent idea. We don't get much rust here in Phoenix, but then Spitifres are notorious for being rust buckets. 

However, be warned that properly refinishing an engine compartment is a major PITA. Degreasing a British car's engine compartment is like cleaning up after the Exxon Valdez, and sanding an engine compartment (which is necessary before any paint work) is not easy.

If you decide not to repaint the engine compartment you could still consider sealing some of the pinch welds. I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem like Triumph applied much in the way of seam sealer. I recall watching water pour in through a weld at the bottom of the bulk head on my car while I was hosing out the engine compartment. I also remember driving through a large puddle and having my feet get wet. British cars... 



> I was originally planning on keeping the clutch, but after seeing how complex it will be to manufacture I'm going to scrap it.


I agree! The clutches on these cars are weak anyway. Mine broke into two pieces while I was accelerating in 3rd gear. The months that followed replacing the clutch, rebuilding the transmission (it was grinding badly into 2nd) and waiting for parts, more parts, the correct parts, and more parts convinced me to sell the car. I would not recommend using the clutch.



> xrotaryguy,
> Thanks for the heads up. The wiki/forums mention "modern transmission have synchros that help shift gears smoothly without the clutch". Is a 1978 Spitfire transmission considered modern? I've done clutchless shifting with an ICE before (and grinded quite a few gears), but I figure I can do that if Spitfires don't have synchros.
> 
> Depending on the performance of the L91-4003, I'm wondering if I can pull off all driving (forward & reverse) in just 2nd and just use the motor's reverse instead of the tranny. If that works out maybe I can just get a simple single-gear gearbox and scrap the transmission altogether. (I probably can't do that and reach highway speeds with that motor though.)


The transmission that I rebuilt had lots of wear. I think it had been apart once already too judging by how some of the parts were from a later model car. So basically the transmission had been disassembled twice for one reason or another in only 80k miles. That is extremely bad. I have never dealt with such a poor quality transmission. I highly recommend using a Japanese transmission. They're lighter and stronger.

Your 78 Spit does have synchros... just not very good ones  You should be able to do all of your driving in 2nd gear until you get on the freeway, so maybe you don't need to worry... but I would.


----------



## Deekman (Jun 29, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> ...I highly recommend using a Japanese transmission. They're lighter and stronger....


Can you think of a RWD trans that is readily available?

I'm not into Japanese cars at all... even my Mazda is disguised with blue ovals...

I thought all Japanese cars (not trucks) were FWD?

I'm not in love with my gearbox; any change to get some weight off is attractive to me!

-Deek


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

fyi.. miatas are rwd and transmissions are readily available...


----------



## 92 Escort EV (Jul 3, 2008)

tywhitaker said:


> Hello:
> Also doing a Spitfire with the FB1-4001. My question for you guys.
> 
> Where do I go for the adapter hardware?
> ...


The "magic number" is refering to the distance from the mating surface of the engine and the transmission, to the rearmost surface of the flywheel. This dimension is needed to make a custom adaptor plate, and properly place the hub on the motor. You just need to duplicate what the engine was if you are using the stock transmission. This is covered on page 35 of "Convert It" by Michael P. Brown. If you are using a different transmission and no clutch/flywheel, then you can just work out the spacing yourself.

Clint, The project is looking good!

Brian.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips guys!

Brian,
When I'm done I'll have to repay that ride you gave me!


----------



## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Aaw no fair, you got a ride in Brian's Escort before I did.  

Welcome to the forums Brian


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

xrotaryguy said:


> Aaw no fair, you got a ride in Brian's Escort before I did.
> 
> Welcome to the forums Brian


Uh oh, maybe I wasn't supposed to say anything.


----------



## spitzy68e (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi another spit conversion,(I HOPE) What have overall total cost estimates been,anyone courageous out there,o.k. one quote for wife,different one for us is o.k.spitzy68e(electric)


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

After all the damage is tallied up, I will probably come to around $9.5K for my Spitfire. That includes everything from batteries to a new paint job. I'm having to restore many components, but I'm doing it all myself, so I am only paying for parts. That doesn't seem like a bad price for a great looking EV that will give me decades of service. Of course, it's a Spitfire, so things will break down, but I enjoy working on this little car.


----------



## gerd1022 (Jun 9, 2008)

i think mine will be under $4K...

but thats with a used forktruck motor, homebuilt controller, walmart batteries, and a $50 rustoleum paintjob!

so your results may vary...


----------



## Deekman (Jun 29, 2008)

I'm shooting for under 3K. (USD)

Probably won't make it, but we'll see. I have modest goals, so maybe that will keep the budget modest.

-Deek


----------



## mark1030 (Jul 28, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Of course, it's a Spitfire, so things will break down, but I enjoy working on this little car.


What do you anticipate breaking down now that the engine is removed?

Are you guys going to need to modify the suspension to be able to handle the batteries?


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I have never owned a LBC before, much less a Spitfire. So, I asked some questions on a Spitfire forum I found. I told them what I was doing and many of them suggested that I try to do the conversion without the transmission. That'll probably be the first thing that breaks on the EV conversion. If it does, I'll probably upgrade to a 240Z transmission. I hear that they are lighter and stronger.

As for the suspension, I'm going to make my best attempt at beefing up the springs. Apparently the bushings in between the rear leaf springs wear out, so they might be the first thing to check: http://www.triumphspitfire.nl/rearspringpads.html. I'm going to probably do my modifications after I get the batteries in.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

spitzy68e said:


> Hi another spit conversion,(I HOPE) What have overall total cost estimates been,anyone courageous out there,o.k. one quote for wife,different one for us is o.k.spitzy68e(electric)


My spreadsheet reports the current estimate is $6820.63 + Batteries (oh yeah, it's that precise). It was originally quite a bit higher, but my hunting for parts & the simplicity of the Spitfire have driven my costs down substantially...

Vehicle Cost $1,500.00 Actual
Seat Covers $43.00 Actual
Sand Paper $4.00 Actual
Chiltons Book $19.87 Actual
Touch-Up Paint $28.21 Actual
ADC #L91-4003 $995.95 Actual
2.5 Gallons Degreaser $14.60 Actual
Convertible Top $400.00 
Kelly 24-120V 400A $895.00 
Alum. Plate / HeatSink $50.00 
Curtis PB6 Pot Box $90.00 
Albright SW-200 $300.00 
Motor Coupling $325.00 
NG3 15A Charger $1,030.00 
Battery Covers $30.00 
Cables $200.00 
Magna Lug $100.00 
Heat Shrink $30.00 
Westberg Voltmeter $65.00 
Westberg Ammeter $65.00 
50 mV Shunt $30.00 
In-Line Fuseholders $5.00 
Littelfuse L25S-400 $55.00 
Littelfuse holder $25.00 
KLK fuse & holder $20.00 
Pair Anderson SBX-350 $64.00 
Fuseholder 12V $15.00 
Inertia Switch $45.00 
DC-DC Converter $175.00 
Ceramic Heater $201.00 
Total $6,820.63 
+ Batteries... ($1500-3000, $6000 if Lithiums miraculously drop in price)

I'm hoping to pay substantially less for the controller, coupling, and charger so this should be the "high" estimate.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

why so much for the ceramic heater? I am expecting to pay 30-40 bucks for it,

brian


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

rctous said:


> why so much for the ceramic heater? I am expecting to pay 30-40 bucks for it,
> 
> brian


I pulled many of the smaller items from other EVers budgets (mostly Kiwis adjusted for currency exchange...). $30-40 is probably more like it - I just haven't gotten around to investigating heaters yet to refine that line.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

OK I see now ya had me scared as I have read many getting away dirt cheap, also a 30 amp dc to dc can be redilly had for 130 bucks or so , let me know when your ready for that.

Brian

Ain't it fun!!!


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> After all the damage is tallied up, I will probably come to around $9.5K for my Spitfire. That includes everything from batteries to a new paint job. I'm having to restore many components, but I'm doing it all myself, so I am only paying for parts. That doesn't seem like a bad price for a great looking EV that will give me decades of service. Of course, it's a Spitfire, so things will break down, but I enjoy working on this little car.


I've had several people balk when I told them I was budgeting $10k for the car+conversion (even though I'll be well under that). Once I point out that they pay $10k-$20k or more on their cars they're a bit more understanding.



rctous said:


> OK I see now ya had me scared as I have read many getting away dirt cheap, also a 30 amp dc to dc can be redilly had for 130 bucks or so , let me know when your ready for that.


My initial estimate was based off of http://www.beepscom.com/product_p/cv-dls-30-144-12.htm. What do you recommend?


----------



## brent.massey (Jul 23, 2008)

Clint, I'm excited about your build! I've been looking at an MG Midget as my donor car (I found 3 on craigslist in this area for under $500). Keep going with it, I'll be following along!


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

here is a ceramic heater I just ordered

http://www.jr.com/honeywell/pe/HNW_HZ315/

Brian


----------



## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Are you trying to utilize your Spitfire fan to blow the hot air around? I'd love to know how you do that. I don't think it's impossible, I just haven't tried measuring stuff out yet.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

brent.massey said:


> Clint, I'm excited about your build! I've been looking at an MG Midget as my donor car (I found 3 on craigslist in this area for under $500). Keep going with it, I'll be following along!


Thanks  I'm hoping to post progress at least once a week.

Good luck in the search. I was on Craig's list, autotrader.com, and cars.com for two months searching "convertible", "mgb", "spitfire", "miata", etc.. etc... trying to find my car.


As far as the heater goes, I'm not sure how exactly I'm going to do it. Being in Phoenix the heater is pretty much dead last on my todo


----------



## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Hey, without an ICE under the hood, you won't have a bunch of engine compartment heat blasting you through all the drafty cracks in the fire wall all summer. Now there's an improvement!


----------

