# 'wittle 'wesistor (Mini Jeep)



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

For my next creation, I've been thinking about building a go kart sized jeep (mini-Jeep)
...but first, here is some Jeep info.

*"The Jeep marque has been headquartered in Toledo, Ohio, ever since Willys–Overland launched production of the first CJ or Civilian Jeep branded models there in 1945. Its replacement, the conceptually consistent Jeep Wrangler series, remains in production since 1986. With its solid axles and open top, the Wrangler is the Jeep model that is central to the brand's identity.

At least two Jeep models (the CJ-5 and the SJ Wagoneer) enjoyed extraordinary three-decade production runs of a single body generation.

In lowercase, the term "jeep" continues to be used as a generic term for vehicles inspired by the Jeep that are suitable for use on rough terrain. In Iceland, the word Jeppi (derived from Jeep) has been used since WWII and is still used for any type of SUV.

Prior to 1940 the term "jeep" had been used as U.S. Army slang for new recruits or vehicles, but the World War II "jeep" that went into production in 1941 specifically tied the name to this light military 4x4, arguably making them the oldest four-wheel drive mass-production vehicles now known as SUVs. The Jeep became the primary light 4-wheel-drive vehicle of the United States Armed Forces and the Allies during World War II, as well as the postwar period. The term became common worldwide in the wake of the war. Doug Stewart noted: "The spartan, cramped, and unstintingly functional jeep became the ubiquitous World War II four-wheeled personification of Yankee ingenuity and cocky, can-do determination." It is the precursor of subsequent generations of military light utility vehicles such as the Humvee, and inspired the creation of civilian analogs such as the original Series I Land Rover. Many Jeep variants serving similar military and civilian roles have since been designed in other nations.

Development – 1. Bantam Reconnaissance Car
When it became clear that the United States would be involved in the European theater of World War II, the Army contacted 135 companies to create working prototypes of a four-wheel drive reconnaissance car. Only two companies responded: American Bantam Car Company and Willys-Overland. The Army set a seemingly impossible deadline of 49 days to supply a working prototype. Willys asked for more time, but was refused. American Bantam had only a small staff with nobody to draft the vehicle plans, so chief engineer Harold Crist hired Karl Probst, a talented freelance designer from Detroit. After turning down Bantam's initial request, Probst responded to an Army request and began work on July 17, 1940, initially without salary.

Probst drafted the full plans in just two days for the Bantam prototype known as the BRC or Bantam Reconnaissance Car, working up a cost estimate the next day. Bantam's bid was submitted on July 22, complete with blueprints. Much of the vehicle could be assembled from off-the-shelf automotive parts, and custom four-wheel drivetrain components were to be supplied by Spicer. The hand-built prototype was completed in Butler, Pennsylvania and driven to Camp Holabird, Maryland on September 23 for Army testing. The vehicle met all the Army's criteria except engine torque.

Development – 2. Willys and Ford
The Army thought that the Bantam company lacked the production capacity to manufacture and deliver the required number of vehicles, so it supplied the Bantam design to Willys and Ford, and encouraged them to enhance the design. The resulting Ford "Pygmy" and Willys "Quad" prototypes looked very similar to the Bantam BRC prototype, and Spicer supplied very similar four-wheel drivetrain components to all three manufacturers.

1,500 of each model (Bantam BRC-40, Ford GP, and Willys MA) were built and extensively field-tested. After the weight specification was revised, Willys-Overland's chief engineer Delmar "Barney" Roos modified the design in order to use Willys's heavy but powerful "Go Devil" engine, and won the initial production contract. The Willys version became the standard jeep design, designated the model MB, and was built at their plant in Toledo, Ohio. The familiar pressed-metal Jeep grille was a Ford design feature and incorporated in the final design by the Army.

Because the US War Department required a large number of vehicles in a short time, Willys-Overland granted the US Government a non-exclusive license to allow another company to manufacture vehicles using Willys' specifications. The Army chose Ford as a second supplier, building Jeeps to the Willys' design. Willys supplied Ford with a complete set of plans and specifications. American Bantam, the creators of the first Jeep, built approximately 2,700 of them to the BRC-40 design, but spent the rest of the war building heavy-duty trailers for the Army.

Final production version jeeps built by Willys-Overland were the Model MB, while those built by Ford were the Model GPW (G = government vehicle, P = 80" wheelbase, W = Willys engine design). There were subtle differences between the two. The versions produced by Ford had every component (including bolt heads) marked with an "F", and early on Ford also stamped their name in large letters in their trademark script, embossed in the rear panel of their jeeps. Willys followed the Ford pattern by stamping 'Willys' into several body parts, but the U.S. government objected to this practice, and both parties stopped this in 1942.

The cost per vehicle trended upwards as the war continued from the price under the first contract from Willys at US$648.74 (Ford's was $782.59 per unit). Willys-Overland and Ford, under the direction of Charles E. Sorensen (vice-president of Ford during World War II), produced about 640,000 Jeeps.

Jeeps were used by every service of the U.S. military. An average of 145 were supplied to every Army infantry regiment. Jeeps were used for many purposes, including cable laying, Sawmilling, as firefighting pumpers, field ambulances, tractors, and, with suitable wheels, would run on railway tracks."*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep

I came across this drawing
...& it seemed like a pretty good guide 

So, I'm thinking maybe ~50% should work for a mini jeep
...so, I'll just have to calculate a ~2:1 reduction


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

FWIU the US military started using mechanized vehicles toward the end of WWI
...but, what was available, at the time, was inadequate for many "war type" situations
...& what "was available" was only available in small numbers

What they ended up with was a bunch of different vehicles
...from different manufacturers
...that all required different parts
...& then, the mechanics (or soldiers, out in the field) had to learn/figure out how to fix all of these different vehicles. 

Going into WW2 the military wanted (1) "simple" vehicle, that was more capable to use, where there weren't any roads
...would be easier to "stock" parts
...& (1) common vehicle for the soldiers to learn how to fix 

The Bantam BRC design kinda "won" basically because it was the only one to submit a working prototype 
...but, because Bantum was a small company, the military submitted the design to Willys (the only other company to respond to the military request) & Ford (probably due to their manufacturing capabilities) & they were encouraged to enhance the design.

Fords most notable contribution to the design seemed to be the extensive use of low cost, easily produced "stamped" parts (like body & grille)
...& for Willy's, it was the powerful "Go Devil" engine.

Another important acclimate of the BRC design, was the use of already available "off the shelf" parts
...with tested designs
...already available inventory
...& also, easily increased manufacturing capabilities 

So, once the military approved a design (M38) "Jeeps" started infesting our planet (~650,000) just of this designation 

The ones built (here in Toledo, Ohio) by Willys were designated MB's
...& the ones Ford's built were GPW's

Then, after WW2 Willys started building a civilian version of the M38's that many soldiers relied on daily 
...& had so much experience with.

So, the CJ (Civilian Jeep) was "born" 

"The CJ series were literally the first "Jeep" branded vehicles sold commercially to the civilian public, beginning in 1945 with the CJ-2A, followed by the CJ-3A in 1949 and the CJ-3B in 1953.

These early Jeeps are frequently referred to as "flat-fenders" because their front fenders were completely flat and straight, just as on the original WW II model (the Willys MB and identical Ford GPW).

Then, beginning with the CJ-5 (in 1955) they featured rounded fenders and hoods, first introduced as the military Willys MD (or M38A1). The (slightly) restyled body was mostly prompted to clear the taller new overhead-valve Hurricane engine."

A few other "Jeep fun facts" 

* The Jeep CJ (built from ~1945 - 1986) is one of the few vehicles that has had over a 30 "production run" (with very few changes)
Its replacement, the conceptually consistent Jeep Wrangler series, has remained in production since (1986 - present)

So, remarkably, it still looks pretty much the same. (for over 75 years) OMG

* The Wrangler is one of the few remaining four-wheel-drive vehicles with solid front and rear axles.
These axles are known for their durability, strength, and articulation.
Another benefit of solid axle vehicles is they tend to be easier and cheaper to "lift" with aftermarket suspension systems.
This increases the distance between the axle and chassis of the vehicle.
By increasing this distance, larger tires can be installed, which will increase the ground clearance, allowing it to traverse even larger and more difficult obstacles.

* In addition to higher ground clearance, many owners aim to increase suspension articulation or "flex" to give their Jeeps greatly improved off-road capabilities.
Good suspension articulation keeps all four wheels in contact with the ground and maintains traction.

* Other useful features of Jeeps are their short wheelbases, narrow frames, ample approach, breakover, and departure angles, thus enabling them to traverse through places where full-size four-wheel drives have difficulty.

* AMC (American Motors Company) carried over the practice of using "available" & "off the shelf" parts when building the CJ's.
So, some Jeeps came, from the factory, with Ford engines & some with Chevy engines
...some had ford style steering columns & others had Chrysler style columns 
...& power steering pumps
...& brake boosters 
...& all kinds of other things too


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"GP" - General Purpose (vehicle)

Does JC Whitney still sell body panels, etc for them?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> "GP" - General Purpose (vehicle)
> 
> Does JC Whitney still sell body panels, etc for them?


It wouldn't surprise me. 
It seems like there are more aftermarket parts available for these Jeeps, than most any other vehicle ever made
...but, most of them probably won't be much help, with my 50% endeavor.

I've been "playing" with some numbers (going off of the pic in the first post)
...& it looks like just 50% is just a bit too small
...but, if I (divide by 2 (50%) & then multiply by .1 & add them together) seems to work better 









So, maybe ~33" wide
...with a ~45" wheelbase
...& ~72" long overall


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So...55% scale, according to book lernin' 🤓


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> So...55% scale, according to book lernin' 🤓


Well...while thinkin' about "names" for my mini-Jeep, Watts-n-Learn was (1) of them 
...but, thought some folks might take it personal  

Speaking of "names" it seems like folks have named their Jeeps, just about everything under the sun 
...even Magic Smoke, which I thought would be a really kool name for an electric powered Jeep 

My criteria for a name was 1.) mini- 2.) electrical 3.) Jeep
...& "if" I could "hit" (2) I'd consider it a "double bonus" 
...but, also, something most ordinary folks would easily recognize

I really liked Amplitude, Capacitator &/or Recifier
...but, does the average "Jo" know what those are (probably not)

Just for "giggles", here are some of the names, I came up with


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So you want to have a "Little Willy"?






Using plywood for the body and the jerry can as the fuel tank is brilliant. 

Maybe you can make the battery box look like a jerry can, and stuff it with Volt cells?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> So you want to have a "Little Willy"?


Oooh, double Ent Ondras, I love them 
...but no, my 'wittle 'wesistor will be unique 

IDK, doing "by eye" measurements, the little Willy doesn't seem to be a true 50% rendition
...& (if possible) I'd like to maintain the normal/proper seating position


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I took the drawings & measurements (from the notebook)
...& started applying them (in the real world) to a piece of ~1/4" plywood (using a ruler, a square, a pencil & a sharpie)

First, I tried a 48" wheelbase
...but, it didn't seem right/proportionate (the wheels seemed too far apart) 








So, I tried the 44.5" WB
...& IMO it looked much better 

* One of the "visual markers" I like to maintain is the "look" of the frame, where it curves up a bit, just in front of the rear wheel. 
Like this:








Then, after everything was drawn out, maybe something like this


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I like the way you're mocking it up.

The challenge with your seating challenge is not requiring a double amputation to get your knees under the dash.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

More ideas for you:









Mini Gas Golf Cart Custom Plus 125cc Mini jeep Vehicle Mini Truck - LIMITED Edition


Check out the the Mini Gas Golf Cart Custom Plus 125cc Mini jeep Vehicle Mini Truck - LIMITED Edition! Call 1-866-606-3991 for more information.




www.saferwholesale.com





Warning: the narrator is annoying


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> I like the way you're mocking it up.





remy_martian said:


> More ideas for you:


Thank you sir  
I just don't like that "seat in the cargo area, look"

Actually, I was kinda waiting for you to ask, "what you gonna do with your feet?"
...& I was going to say, Flintstone the firewall 

* There won't be an engine up there 
...thus no need for a "firewall"
...so, let's try & take advantage of the situation

As for getting your knees under the dash 

It looks like it "should have" ~14" from the floor up to the "dash bar"

So, think about it from a go kart, Corvette or even a Formula 1 "point of view"
...you are going to have to "climb in"


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is what it may look like, with wheels (~16" tall riding lawn mower wheels)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Suggest you get yourself an adjustable stool and crank it to the compressed height of your seat. Mark the bottom of the dash panel and your pedals. See if your bent knees will fit in there.

I'm not concerned about entry (if you can get into a kayak, you can get into this thing), but the seat back to pedal distance with the dash as a height constraint on your knees which you did not have in your kart builds. In a kart, your butt is an inch or two off the ground, which lowers your bent knees....here you have the seat a lot higher up relative to the pedals.

Is this a single seater? If not, wheel wells may be another leg problem.

It's good that you're constraining the design...just need to double and triple check you can get an adult (or two?) accommodated.

Wide mower tires and rims might be a consideration as well.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Suggest you get yourself an adjustable stool and crank it to the compressed height of your seat. Mark the bottom of the dash panel and your pedals. See if your bent knees will fit in there.
> 
> I'm not concerned about entry (if you can get into a kayak, you can get into this thing), but the seat back to pedal distance with the dash as a height constraint on your knees which you did not have in your kart builds. In a kart, your butt is an inch or two off the ground, which lowers your bent knees....here you have the seat a lot higher up relative to the pedals.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the input 

The dash bar in my Aerial Atom kart is ~14" above the floorboard
...& I believe the dash in the Slingshot is about the same height

I did a quick drawing this morning to "double check" the seating & foot accommodations

Here are the "basic" numbers 
...but, this is art so, everything adjustable


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Another little-known fact (& potentially an option for more foot room) 
...is that many folks have installed a "foot peg" on outside of these style Jeeps 
...just so, they can drive with (1) foot "out in the breeze"

They even get creative with them  
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/e7/67/a4e767193d90fc8c0002d4fbe23dca07.jpg


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Checking another "guide" that I sometimes go by, the FSAE RULES 2022 

* See, sometimes I go by "the book" (or at least "check it" for reference)  

In the* F-Chassis & Structural *section, I notice it has instructions for a 2-dimensional driver template "used to represent the 95th percentile male" 








...& an illustration too








It specifies 915mm (~36") from pelvis to foot
...but, the bottom of the seat is about the same height as the feet/pedals 

Additionally, under *T-Technical Aspects* they have specifications for the cockpit opening
...& also, an Internal Cross Section Template

It specifies a 350mm (~14") requirement from top to bottom 
...& 300mm (~12") from side to side (for a single driver)









Just more info/food for thought


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Yup - but that is for reclined seating. 

What you are proposing is a bench seat, so I think you need an "anthropomorphic" model that has the knee joint in it, not a straight line hip to ankle model the FSAE cars use.

From Henry Dreyfus's book "Designing for People" (which is on sale on Amazon right now), if you don't want to squint at this lame scan:










Or a stool up against your plywood sheet where the seat is and maybe a footpeg to see where your knees wind up when projected onto the plywood model's dash to floorboard opening. Don't forget the knee and foot positions traveling to a pedal from the floor or dead pedal and actuating it, unlike a kart where it's mostly ankle action.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Thanks, great response
...& very informative 

I evaluated the situation a bit more
...& agree it's going to be tight
...but, this "is" a "mini" vehicle so...

Now, let's talk about the frame & suspension 

Many "replica" or "bodied" go karts use a simple Ladder style frame
...& the body is just a facade (or outer cover)

I'm thinking, since I'm designing & building a frame, from scratch, I'd like to incorporate a few features
...which may even strengthen it as well 

Here is kinda what a "stock" jeep CJ frame looks like (top of pic)
...& below is kinda what I'm thinking for a rear trailing arm

* Notice it would be "curved" to "mimic" the look of a leaf spring 

It would connect to the frame in front of the rear wheel (like a CJ)
...& use (2) coil-over shocks (1) on each side (not shown)

The rear of the trailing arm would curve upwards a bit
...& then "cross-over" to the other side
...but, would not be connected (to the frame)

The rear axle
...motor
...& brake system would all be mounted on this trailing arm 

* Thinking about using this concept for the front axle/suspension too


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You could just raid a golf cart for leaf springs, frame, front suspension and steering, etc...basically that 125cc mini-Jeep, de-iced.

You can also go plywood unibody with a front subframe....think about using wooden boatbuilding techniques (including a layer of fiberglass) for everything back from the front tires.


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## WC53 (6 mo ago)

You could steal the front ifs subframe out of a larger quad or utv and get disc brakes to boot if you are going into the suspension rabbit hole. Keeping part of the frame would maintain the geometry of the mounting points.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> You could just raid a golf cart for leaf springs, frame, front suspension and steering, etc...basically that 125cc mini-Jeep, de-iced.
> 
> You can also go plywood unibody with a front subframe....think about using wooden boatbuilding techniques (including a layer of fiberglass) for everything back from the front tires.





WC53 said:


> You could steal the front ifs subframe out of a larger quad or utv and get disc brakes to boot if you are going into the suspension rabbit hole. Keeping part of the frame would maintain the geometry of the mounting points.


Thanks fellas, those are both great suggestions
...& in the "spirit" of an old Jeep (a conglomeration of available off the shelf parts)

*When using existing parts, you have to "deal with" or design around their specs
...but, when designing & building "from scratch" you have more flexibility 

** Also, many old jeeps have been modified & upgraded, with tubular frames & custom suspensions

I got some "ideas"
...so, let me "see" what I can conjure up
...but, don't be surprised if it includes some existing "mini parts


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

FYI:
This kart (Desteny's) was designed & built using scooter parts




&
This kart (Winston's) was designed & built using riding lawn mower parts





* These videos were posted about the same time
...& the video for Winston's Kart has only gotten ~600 views 
...but, the video for Desteny's kart has gotten over 75K views (to date)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

So, thinking about "how" the frame needed to be shaped, first I thought of something like this:

*Notice the leaf spring "looking" trailing arms? 








Thinking about it more, I came up with these (3) options:

** Notice: these frames are facing the other direction, than the above pic
(front toward the left)








The excessive curves in (A) didn't seem necessary 

The (B) option is a simpler design
...but, (as seen in the above (1st) pic) extra bars would be required for mounting the seats

The (C) option (with its (2) inter-locking pieces) seemed like it would make a stronger frame
...have the seat support "built in" 
...& that "area" under the seat, may be a good place for the battery pack
(which would be centrally located & also, help maintain a low COG)

So yea, I'm going to "roll with" Option (C) 
...& "see" where that "takes" us


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm guessing you'll have a jackshaft under the seat with your leaf spring trailing arms? 

Why not just use light trailer or golf cart leaf springs?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

As far as your "use" of quotes for emphasis, you _can_ use italics in one of three ways on this forum.

1. you can use the "I"in the control panel of your posting - six tools to the left of the picture posting tool. The U gives you underlines.

2. you can use asterisks instead of the way you use quotes. Double asterisks on either side will give you *bold*, whereas singles will give you _Italics_

3. you can highlight a word with your cursor and pick bold or italic or underline


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> I'm guessing you'll have a jackshaft under the seat with your leaf spring trailing arms?
> 
> Why not just use light trailer or golf cart leaf springs?


What would a jackshaft be needed for?
...& where would ya put it?

For an idea of what I have in mind, check out Damien  

It has a 48V 1,800W brushless motor, mounted on the trailing arm
...which also, holds the (4) 12V 12AH SLA batteries
...& the brake system


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I assumed you would not be mounting the motor on the arm, but, yeah...that'll work. Prob want the chain outa sight, though.

You seem to crank these karts out like jellybeans, lol


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Prob want the chain outa sight, though.


Yup, everything (motor, chain, sprockets & brake system) would all be mounted inside of the frame
...& hidden under the cargo area
...like in this drawing 









The idea is to have the trailing arm curved, to look like the leaf springs on a full-size Jeep CJ (another visual marker)
...& a couple of small coil-over shocks (mounted roughly where the shock absorbers would be on a FS CJ)
These would be dual purpose, providing the suspension & shock absorption.

*FYI: Adding coil-over shocks is one of the first upgrades that many folks do on these style Jeeps.
It's an easy way to give the chassis a "lift" for more ground clearance
...& a little bit more suspension travel


remy_martian said:


> You seem to crank these karts out like jellybeans, lol


Well, I've been doing this for quite a while.
...& for the record, I've designed & built:

The V8 Chevy starter kart (early 2000's)
My Twins kart (2014)
Desteny's kart (2015)
Winston's kart (2015)
El Dingo (Manco Dingo converted to electric) (2016)
Double Trouble (2016)
Zero (2017)
El Turbo (2017)
ElMoto (motorcycle converted to electric) (2017)
!ARRIBA! (2018)
Torsk (2018)
Damien (2019)
Mini-Aerial Atom (2019)
Lunar Rover (2020)
Excalibur (2020)
Land Speeder (2021)
Mini-Sling Shot (2021)
Hell-raiser (2022)
Electron kart (started in 2022) (but, got distracted building & testing batteries)

Wow! thats almost (20) 
...so, experienced in building mini-EV's "I'd say, yes" 
...expert (not really for me to decide) 

* If anyone is interested, I have hundreds of videos, on my YouTube channel *Functional Artist* documenting
...& testing most of these Functional Art creations. 
...& some other stuff too (I don't just design & build go karts) 

Like this:


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

As I said before, it's this design process and the actual build that will drive traffic - be the Colin Furze (a Youtuber that built cool stuff before he hit a million subs and started catering to the chimps - he seems to be heading back to his roots, vs being a ferret and digging tunnels, with his latest shop build) of karts. Yes, you are the GOAT of karts.

Meanwhile, I'd push the chain sprocket to the center of the axle to disappear it, if the motor fits. Also think about moving the motor as close as possible to the swingarm centerline because you have springs and shocks - that way you can size them nicely vs having a harsh and squirrely ride because of the motor mass (also good to isolate the magnets in the motor from road vibration if you want to nitpick). Looks like you maybe able jog its mounting crossmember to accomplish that, if you want. It should also hide the motor from view better.

Are you planning to put a diff in it like the FSAE kids do or just a solid axle?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> As I said before, it's this design process and the actual build that will drive traffic - be the Colin Furze (a Youtuber that built cool stuff before he hit a million subs and started catering to the chimps - he seems to be heading back to his roots, vs being a ferret and digging tunnels, with his latest shop build) of karts. Yes, you are the GOAT of karts.


Yes sir, that's kinda why I post & jabber so much, about my projects & experiments & data.

Thank you, your very kind 
...but, I'm just "doing my thing" 

Here is something I read (saved & remembered) a long time ago, when I first started researching EV's
...& kinda motivated me to post & share my art 

"YOU are a first person trusted source to dozens and potentially hundreds of people around you.
I cannot adequately express, or persuade or put into words how very powerful this is. It is NOT the usual gratuitous "if we all join forces together" power to the people bunch of horse shit that many of you would be perfectly willing to accept. EACH one of you has ENORMOUS power to influence others by the dedication of your ducats and handwork to this cause. It actually causes CONSTERNATION in the populace." Jack Rickard
EVTV.ME


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Meanwhile, I'd push the chain sprocket to the center of the axle to disappear it, if the motor fits. Also think about moving the motor as close as possible to the swingarm centerline because you have springs and shocks - that way you can size them nicely vs having a harsh and squirrely ride because of the motor mass (also good to isolate the magnets in the motor from road vibration if you want to nitpick). Looks like you maybe able jog its mounting crossmember to accomplish that, if you want. It should also hide the motor from view better.
> 
> Are you planning to put a diff in it like the FSAE kids do or just a solid axle?


When building go karts it's usually best to try & keep the driven sprocket as close to the bearing, as possible
...which provides better support (don't want to "pull" on the axle in the middle, where there isn't any support)

Adding another bearing (in the middle) just adds unnecessary cost, complication & weight
...& also, keeping close to the wheel provides more protection (for the sprocket & chain) from road damage.

No differential. From my experience, the little Peerless type differentials (usually used on small vehicles) aren't very useful for an off-road vehicle because, they "don't go" or become useless, if (1) of the wheels loses traction.
...so, I'm going to just use a 36" live axle
...but, have some ideas about a "limited Slip-Live Axle" (possible, later on, modification)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Real men use dual motors...

🤓


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Motivations & specifications
I got motivated to build a mini-Jeep by D&V's Jeep project & a few of the other Jeep projects here on the forum.

Plus, right here, in my hometown of Toledo, Ohio is the "home" of the Jeep
...& we have Jeeps literally coming out of our ears
...&/so, (1) of my goals for this kart, if I can get it done in time, is to see if I can enter it in our 2023 Toledo Jeep Fest Parade, scheduled for Aug 24, 2023 

Here is a pic, of a few of them "stacking them up" during the parade 








* Notice that front axle articulation, due to the extra suspension travel

I'm going to try & maintain this straight axle look/concept
...& have a few ideas on how to possibly mimic this articulation (on a smaller scale)


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A torque tube with a bushing in it will do that. Cake, when you have the motor on the swingarm.


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

FYI: here is a video (not one of mine) of a previous Toledo Jeep Fest parade 
We usually have thousands of Jeeps of every kind, size & year in our parades


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> A torque tube with a bushing in it will do that. Cake, when you have the motor on the swingarm.


I like Cake 
...how about a pic? or a diagram? ...of this concept/idea?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Then the idea/concept/brainstorm becomes a design effort...I drop in here for a break from my own stuff, not to have more work piled on for me.

If you get stuck, happy to give a nudge or provocation, but call me lazy or an a-hole -- I simply don't have the bandwidth to design and/or build others' creations with all the stuff on my plate and somehow having some fam time squeezed in as well.

Yours would be a full time job for me, keeping up with you - I'm supposed to be retired 😂


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Then the idea/concept/brainstorm becomes a design effort...I drop in here for a break from my own stuff, not to have more work piled on for me.


Well, I guess some folks lead by _fact_
...& some folks lead by_ example_

The problem with leading by _fact_, out here in the real world, are the variables
...& if you don't explain _how_ that _fact _applies (to a specific situation)...the suggestion/information is useless.


remy_martian said:


> If you get stuck, happy to give a nudge or provocation, but call me lazy or an a-hole -- I simply don't have the bandwidth to design and/or build others' creations with all the stuff on my plate and somehow having some fam time squeezed in as well


I didn't ask you design or build my creation
...I was listing a design _goal_
...& you volunteered a IMO vague suggestion like


remy_martian said:


> A torque tube with a bushing in it will do that. Cake, when you have the motor on the swingarm.


I'm not in your head
...but, I was interested in your idea & wanted to LEARN more
...so, I simply asked for a bit more info (OMG)

Hmmm...(I thought to myself) a _torque tube & bushing_ (sounds interesting)
...where would it go? (on the kart)
...& would it help the front axle or rear axle articulation?

Don't worry, I GOT THIS
...& I'll even take the time to show ya, how I did it 
...because, you suggested:
"Also would be happy for you to teach everyone how to set up the steering and jigs to build all your carts (the Atom is my favorite, though Slingshot is cute), I might even do so with my 6 year old engineering apprentice....that is how you get Youtube subscribers, not clowning around popping wheelies on the grass in a cart that appeared out of nowhere. *Show the world in detail how to build your cool creations, step by step*...show what you do know and do well and you can be the This Old Tony of cart building."

Which FYI kinda inspired me to, undertake this challenge
...& do this Mini-Jeep (in the middle of winter)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Like I've done with all my coop students, the creativity is not in the concept/idea, but in evolving the execution. Giving the solution would have made them my workers vs designers in their own right.

Besides that, you have a lot of creatvity - I was curious where it would go if you ran with the ability to do 360 degrees of articulation 😂

I'm not from the "show my shit on social media" generation like some of you. It's great that people do.

I can just bow out and spectate if you want. Just say so - won't hurt my feelings.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is the bending plan, for the frame side rails









So, I picked up a couple of "sticks" of pipe (21' of 1/2" Schedule 40 water pipe)










Then, cut (2) at 56" (for the (2) "A" pieces)
...& (2) pieces at 42" (for the (2) "B" pieces) 









Now, when needing to make (2) identical pieces, I have found that it's a good practice to make them simultaneously.

So, I measure, mark, cut, mark & bend both at the same time (or one right after the other)

After cutting, I marked both "A" pieces at 12" & 7" & 30" 
...& both "B" pieces at 7"

I even use a square to make sure both pieces are marked exactly the same


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Cutting I can do. Use stops to get identical pieces if you can't gang cut.

Bends, I suck at replication, whether sheet or tube, they turn out @&$!. I guess it's easier with some of the newer bending rigs...maybe use stops? On my skills to finesse list for next year.

Am curious why you're not using very light guage rectangular tube for this one and take pie cuts?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Cutting I can do. Use stops to get identical pieces if you can't gang cut.


I measure & mark (1) piece 
...& then, use the square to transfer the marks to the other piece
...but, cut them individually


remy_martian said:


> Bends, I suck at replication, whether sheet or tube, they turn out @&$!. I guess it's easier with some of the newer bending rigs...maybe use stops? On my skills to finesse list for next year.


Follow along & check out the way I do it 
...maybe/hopefully it will help  


remy_martian said:


> Am curious why you're not using very light guage rectangular tube for this one and take pie cuts?


It's just the material/medium I am used to & am comfortable working with


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Step into the discomfort zone...
😈

You have all the tools and skills, though welding is a bit less forgiving. Make a scale Jeep frame 😈


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I bent both "A" pieces at the 7" mark (25 pumps per bend)
...& then at the 30" mark (25 pumps per bend)
...then, flipped them over & bent them at the other 7" mark (25 pumps per bend) (like in the diagram)

The "B" pieces were simply bent at the 7" mark (also 25 pumps per bend)
...& here is what they look like (so far) 









Another view (looks like Ducky approves)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Never thought about equal shots to the jack

🤪

Thanks!

Now that you've had some practice, go get some light guage rectangular tubing 😈

jk


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

To trim the ends off of the pieces that will be welded together, I used the edge of the work bench as a straight edge 








Aligned the rest of the piece, with the work bench








...& cut the ends off

* Notice I trimmed them just before the end of the piece 
...so, it leaves a bit of a dip that will snug around a pipe
...& not a sharp point 

Next, step was to "notch" the trimmed ends to fit around & mate up with a pipe nicely

** There are actual pipe/tube notchers available
...but, I usually just form my own notches by creative cutting
...&/or sometimes roughing them in with an angle grinder
...& then, just clean them up, with a 1" grinding stone chucked in a router (& mounted to a board)








*** It's getting well worn 
...but, does the job


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I took the pieces over to the full-size drawing
...& did a dry fit 









* Notice, by using the (7") for the up/down "transitions" the lower frame rail dropped down ~1" which increased the distance under the seat up to ~6" (to better fit the battery box)
...& the adjustments also increase the distance from the seat back to pedal a couple of inches.

Looks like it should work  

So, I "permanently scarred" (made a deep mark) 
...to indicate where the (2) pieces need to be aligned
...just deep enough so, the mark couldn't be sanded off during cleaning
...& then, cleaned the areas to be welded 








Next, I set up a welding jig, by screwing a couple of boards down to the workbench (1 above & 1 below)
...& "clamped" the pieces in place with a cross board








Welded the top side of the (2) junctions
...then, flipped the piece over
...& clamped it back in the jig, to weld the other side








Welded junction


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I got both frame rails, all welded up








Here's another view








And another


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Can you "see" it taking shape? (I can)  
...& also, "see" the benefits of making both pieces simultaneously? 

So now, we have (2) 2-dimensional frame rails
...& when we connect them together, with a few cross bars, we'll have a 3-dimensional tubular frame (aka Space Frame)
Where these rails "go" is represented by the dashed line, in this drawing 








Next, IMO we should work on the suspension, to figure out the _wheel track_
...& account for wheel clearance
...so, we can determine the necessary frame width (to make them cross bars) 

This drawing gives a rough idea of the suspension concept that I'm going to use 








Front suspension ideas (A) Front axle would be welded to the trailing arm
...(B) The trailing arms would have brackets welded to them & the axle would connect with bolts (to pivot)
...& (C) The trailing arms would "go thru" sway bar type bushings/brackets, that are mounted to the axle








...or (D) Complicated & unnecessarily heavy articulating cradle idea (that I'm not even going to explain)


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You might think out of the box and change those two brackets, which are your "comfort zone", into one stout centered one if you want articulation. That stout bracket will need a second cross tube, since the one holding the axles no longer serves that function. Need a good fit (I'd ream the bushing and use drill rod with pins instead of a bolt) between the pivot bushing and the bolt so it doesn't wobble.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I made a "model" of the curved trailing arm (rocking chair/cradle) idea








It will help, with the orientation of the curves, for bending








The original idea was to use curved trailing arm idea, for both the front & rear suspensions

But now, I'm thinking about possibly splitting the front "cradle" into pieces, to allow for some "flexibility" 

So, to try this idea, I cut a couple of 24" pieces
...marked them (as per the bending diagram)
















...& applied (5) pumps at 2" intervals (leaving 4" alone on each end)

Here is the difference between a bent piece
...& unbent piece


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I bent the 2nd piece the same 
...& now, we (simultaneously) have 2 of them

Then, took them back to the FS drawing, for a dry fit

Here is kinda how the rear would look
...& it looks like it would have ~4" of available room, for suspension "travel"  








* Notice how it would mount, with a nut & bolt 
...thru a bracket, mounted to the frame, just like the leaf springs on a FS jeep









Still figuring on the front
...but, here is where it's at

May have to "terminate" the pieces (around) where the pen is pointing
...& "lift" the suspension a bit (to allow for a bit more "travel")

** It's still a "work in progress"


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Faux Leaf Spring-Cradle bending diagram









I bent the curved sides first (keeping them nice & aligned)
...basically, the same "bow" as the (2) shorties








I layed it on the workbench & used a conduit strap (with a hole drilled in the top)
...& a sharpie to mark the piece @90* (from the curves) to do the (2) main bends 








It took 47 pumps, on each side, to establish the 90* bends








Here is another view (with the axle mounts set in place)









* It took longer to draw the diagram 
...than, it actually took to make the piece


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You're definitely on the artism spectrum 😛

I still think you should stray a bit out of your comfort zone and try square and rectangular tubing.

Where do you get your axle mounts?


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> You're definitely on the artism spectrum 😛
> 
> I still think you should stray a bit out of your comfort zone and try square and rectangular tubing.
> 
> Where do you get your axle mounts?


Functional Art  

Go Power Sports
Example:
Just an axle bracket ~$4.00
Bearing Hanger (One Hanger)
...or 1" axle bearing kit ~$25.00
3 Hole 1" Axle Bearing Kit


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Front Axle Diagram


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I flipped the FS drawing over & used the other side to help figure & record the frame width info
(Kinda like a "top view")
&
As you can see from the Front Axle Specifications drawing (previous pic) it looks like the frame rails are going to be ~20 apart
...& have a ~25" KP to KP (King Pin to King Pin)
...which should give us a ~36" track width
&
It looks like a ~2" steel tube, will be proportionate for a front axle tube 
...& just have the spindle brackets welded to the ends








Here is a top view, using the "Cradle" as frame rails
...to check the clearance, between the wheels & the frame rails 
Left turn 








Right turn








Looks good to me  

* Notice for this mockup, everything is held together with a ratchet strap
...& gravity 😁


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

With project support provided by the post office 😂


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is kinda how, I'm thinking, the individual trailing arms will connect to the axle 

Can you "see" how this concept should allow the axle to kinda pivot

The rubber bushings & steel brackets are automotive sway bar bushings, for a 7/8" bar 








Another view 








Next, we'll need to make some mounting brackets.
...(4) for mounting the trailing arms (& trailing arm cradle) to the frame 
...& (2) to mount the bushings to the axle


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Those sway bar bushings (& brackets) are designed to be able to handle/control a full size (~1.5 - 2 ton) car
...so, they should be able to handle anything that this (probably ~500lb.) mini-Jeep could ever "throw at it"  

But, this suspension system is still going to have to deal with supporting the vehicle
...& also, these bushings & mount may also encounter some irregular "pivoting action" (up & down & side to side)
...so, the bushings need to be _mounted_ to the axle very securely

Just an FYI


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

While the trailing arms make sense for the rear, the front would be better with leading arms. If you look at a real leaf-spring Jeep, you'll find that the fixed end of the leaf springs are ones toward the middle of the vehicle, with the shackles toward the end of the vehicle. There is a good reason for this in suspension geometry... although it's unlikely that anyone in this discussion is interested in the details.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I can see how they'd slide off in a fancy arc 😂

Need stop washers on each side of those rubber bushes...


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

brian_ said:


> While the trailing arms make sense for the rear, the front would be better with leading arms. If you look at a real leaf-spring Jeep, you'll find that the fixed end of the leaf springs are ones toward the middle of the vehicle, with the shackles toward the end of the vehicle.


Hello Brian,
From my research, it seems like there have been many variations on these, from the M38, M38A1, CJ2, CJ3 thru the newer CJ5 & CJ7's
...& they seem to have had both leading & trailing arms 

This is the drawing (labeled CJ5) that I got most of my dimension data from.

It's not super clear but, to me, it looks to have both the front & rear springs trailing 








...& in this pic of a M38 (flat fender) too








...& in this pic of a M38A1 (round fenders) too








...but, this pic of an old CJ5 frame, clearly shows the front springs leading & the rears trailing








I thought about it & could still set up the front either way
...but, my reasoning for using the trailing style is because, it seems like, suspension "travel" will affect the Castor angle.

I usually set the (wheel) Castor at ~7* (top of spindle, toward the rear)
...& it seems like "if" the leading concept was incorporated, the Castor angle would get "worse" or more extreme, during suspension "travel", causing an extremely "heavy" feeling steering.

Whereas, it seems like, "if" the trailing concept was used, the Castor angle would actually reduce, during suspension "travel" 
...& not affect the "feel" of the steering, as much. 

That was my thinking, anyways  



brian_ said:


> There is a good reason for this in suspension geometry... although it's unlikely that anyone in this discussion is interested in the details.


I'm interested 


remy_martian said:


> Need stop washers on each side of those rubber bushes...


Yup, just haven't got that far, yet


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Use two arms in your trailing setup and the caster angle won't change.

castor: French word for beaver. Not sure how I remember that, but where I just put my keys evades me 😂


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Functional Artist said:


> I thought about it & could still set up the front either way
> ...but, my reasoning for using the trailing style is because, it seems like, suspension "travel" will affect the Castor angle.
> 
> I usually set the (wheel) Castor at ~7* (top of spindle, toward the rear)
> ...


That's actually why the leading arms are preferable at the front - loss of caster angle causes loss of stability, which is particularly bad under hard braking. 

When a design changes over time, the newer version is probably the better one... but either way can work well enough.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Functional Artist said:


> I'm interested


The basic reason is anti-dive: leading arms result in the front of the vehicle being pushed up under braking force which reduces dive, just as trailing arms result in the rear of the vehicle being pushed up under acceleration force which reduces squat.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Hello Brian,
Thanks for the follow up replies
...&more info 
...& another way to look at it

So, I've been thinking about it more 
...& doing some drawing, to help understand it a bit more 








I think, I can "see" the benefits of having a leading arm suspension in the front for controlling the weight, of a heavy vehicle under breaking (especially on a vehicle with front brakes)








With a Leading arm suspension (in the front) under breaking conditions, the suspension connection would get used as a fulcrum & the weight would get "dumped" on the front axle (where the suspension could help "catch it")
...but, with a trailing arm suspension (in the front) the weight would (theoretically) get "dumped" in front of the vehicle 









But, this is going to be a pretty light (~500lbs,) low speed vehicle (~20MPH) without front brakes
...so, either way, I don't think it will affect performance very much

So, I'm just going to stay_ flexible about it, for the time being
...& _see how everything looks, when it comes to mounting the trailing arms & suspension "travel" clearance 

Thanks again, I learned some new stuff today _  _


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Bushing to axle mounts diagram








I made both pieces at the same time (as per the diagram)









After cleaning them up, I aligned them on the axle & drilled some holes 








Then, used some nuts & bolts to bolt them firmly to the axle








& then, welded them solidly in place








I also, went ahead & tac welded the spindle brackets on the ends (just tac's for now) may have to do some adjustments later


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Yes, I removed the bolts before tac welding the spindle brackets on.  

As I mentioned earlier, this connection needs to be heavy duty.
...& the bushings/brackets needed a good-n-flat place to mount 
...& not just bolted to a round tube 

So, I welded the sway bar bracket mounting plate (SBBMP) to the axle
...& then, tapped some 3/8" x 16 threads thru it & the axle too (a 1/4" thick plate + 1/8" tube wall = ~3/8" of threads)

* A nut & bolt couldn't be used in this situation, due to no access to the inside of the tube once the spindle brackets were welded on
...& IMO putting a long bolt thru the axle, would just look "cheesy"








Tapping the threads








Bushing & bracket securely mounted to axle








Mostly complete front axle, mounted to the trailing arms


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

This pic gives an idea of the ~7* Castor angle.

This angle may change, depending on the final (resting) trailing arm orientation
...but, will change, with suspension "travel"
...& which direction they change, depends on if leading arms or trailing arms are used

Just to be clear, Leading Arms (connected to the frame behind the wheel) would increase the Castor angle (top of ink pen would lean more toward the right) during suspension travel
...but, Trailing Arms (connected to the frame in front of the wheel) would decrease the Castor angle (top of ink pen would lean more toward the left) during suspension travel








*Why even incorporate a Castor angle?

FMU having the King Pin (bolt that the spindle pivots on) tilted a little bit toward the rear of a vehicle helps to "center" the steering after a turn (self-correcting, just like most full-size cars do)
...& also, helps with stability, during straight driving too

So, the more the Castor angle increases, the "heavier" the steering feels (like it's helping too much)
...& the more the Castor angle decreases, the lighter the steering feels & less stable (no help)

Moving on, here is the mostly complete front axle.








Another view (sat roughly "in place" in front of FS drawing)


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Need stop washers on each side of those rubber bushes...


Here ya go Remy
* They will be welded in place once "that place" is figured out 








* You can't really find 7/8" washers (to use as stops) just anywhere
...so, I just drilled out (4) standard hardware store 3/4" washers
...using a Step Drill bit


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I'd rollpin those (at least on one side) vs welding so you can change out that rubber bushing if needed, or is the rubber split to where it can be pulled off with welded washers?


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> I'd rollpin those (at least on one side) vs welding so you can change out that rubber bushing if needed, or is the rubber split to where it can be pulled off with welded washers?


The bushings are split
...but, using a roll pin on the front side (of each side) is a good idea. Thanks


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I made a Metal Flower 








...& another view


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Yes, my "flower" is an arrangement of TAMB's (Trail Arm Mounting Brackets) 
...that were made, as per this diagram 








Cut (5) pieces








Clamped them together (to drill the bolt holes)








Bolted them together (to do some shaping)








Now we have (5) identical pieces








Cleaned them up a bit








Set the bender up for 2" & inserted the piece








Squared the piece








...& bent it to ~90*








Turned the piece around, re inserted it & bent that side to ~90* too


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Now that we have the TAMB's we need some TABH's (Trailing Arm Bushing Holders)
...to hold the bushings that connect the ends of the trailing arm to the frame

Something like this









So, I set up a cutting jig (set to 1 1/2")








...& cut (8) bushing holders (double checked, just to be sure)

* For extra accuracy, start measuring off of the 2" mark
...& on longer measures, don't forget to add 2"  








Probably look about like this








I layed the (2) curved front trailing arm pieces on their side
...& marked them (to notch them at 90* from the curve)









Did the same for the rear trailing arm
...& roughed in some notches








Then, rounded them a bit better








Cleaned up the bushing holders (for welding)








Clamped the trailing arm on its side (to help weld the bushing holder on nice & straight)








* Notice, the trailing arm is clamped to the workbench on top of a ~1/4" spacer
Which helps to center the trailing arm on the bushing holder

They need to be offset just a bit
...so, I clamped & welded (1) toward the left
...& then, (1) toward the right








Oh, dang hit the (10) pic limit 
More to come


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I used a ratchet strap, the workbench & a rod, to help make sure the (2) bushing holders were aligned on the rear trailing arm (for smooth hinge action) before welding








Side view


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

When I Googled Mini Jeep Trailing Arm Bushings, I got part # MJ122122 (mini Jeep) (out of stock)
...which cross referenced with an International Harvestor (tractor) part # IH451266 (out of stock)
...& Shindler-Haughton (elevator) part # 313131(out of stock)
...& also, Tombulson (shredder) part #7251660-34257 (also, out of stock) 

Um...JK, totally just made that up 

So, I just made some 

I used the same cutting jig, that I used to cut the bushing holders (still set up at 1 1/2")
...& cut a bunch of steel inserts (3/8" ID x 1/2" OD steel tube)








...& cleaned them up, same as the bushing holders 








Then, cut some rubber inserts (1/2" ID automotive fuel line) also, at 1 1/2" long
...& then, just slid the steel tube into the rubber hose








Yup, Made in the USA 








Bushing & Bushing Holder








Bushing in Bushing Holder








Bushing in Bushing Holder, mounted in Trailing Arm Mounting Bracket








Front trailing arm(s) & rear trailing arm (assemblies) all ready for alignment & mounting on the frame


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This came up on my feed as a reTweet just now:


----------



## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I suspect you're going to need to fab a "panhard bar", particularly in the front, or it may sway like mad on those rubber bushings.


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> I suspect you're going to need to fab a "panhard bar", particularly in the front, or it may sway like mad on those rubber bushings.


Your probably right, good eye!
I have some ideas
...but, "if" still unstable, a panhard bar would be an easy modification.


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Now that we have the front & rear sub-assemblies pretty much done, let's get back to the "main frame"

I wanted to keep the trailing arms "in line" with the frame (same width)
...so, where the front trailing arms mounted, on the axle (how far apart) was kind of the determining factor on how wide the frame should be
...plus, I also had to make sure that the front wheels could turn (stop to stop) without hitting the frame. 








* My dimension conversion chart indicated that the body width should be ~34" wide
...so, I went with a ~36" wide "track" (standard 36" rear axle)
...& after accounting for wheel turning clearance, it looks like the main frame should be ~20" wide

So, I set up a welding jig (just 2 boards, screwed down to the work bench)
..."butted" both frame rails up to the boards
...& then, I could measure how long to make the cross-bars

** I figured (3) cross-bars, strategically placed should "do it" (plus the front & rear bumpers, not shown)
...kinda like this 








Squared it up real nice (using magnetic squares & also manual squares, in several different directions)
...& then, tac'ed welded 'er all together.








Flipper 'er over
...put 'er back in the jig
...& did it again 








Flipper 'er up sideways
...& started welding 'er up good 








...& now, we have a 3D, tubular, mini-Jeep, "main frame"


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is the Rear Trailing Arm, just sitting on the inverted frame
side view








Another view (rear)








* To temporarily attach (mock) the trailing arm mounting brackets onto the frame, a "trick" I use, is to just drill a small hole thru the top of the bracket 








...& once the piece is "in place", mark & drill a hole thru the frame
...then, use a small sheet metal screw to "bolt" it down 








After "bolting" both brackets down
...then, flip it over & set it in front of the FS drawing, to double check positioning 








Yup, that's looks like about like what I had in mind


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

See the "visual marker" that this gives us.

Here is the rear wheel with the "spring" trailing arm (temporarily) mounted just ahead of where the frame angles upwards








Also now, you should be able to see the nice pocket (under the cargo area) we will have available, for the motor
...& then, just ahead of that "motor compartment" (under the seat) notice the nice pocket that we will have available for the battery box

* Um...surprise inspection, being conducted, during this pic 
...but, I think we "passed"


----------



## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Pssst, don't say anything (to Brian) 
...but, that "thing" he mentioned
...ya know "that Leading thing"
... it seems like (maybe) 

Well, um...ya know, 
...& I'm still not sure
...but, well...maybe just maybe, the Leading Arms concept "may" actually work out better, in this situation


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

After triple checking...everything








Even the (potential) steering shaft alignment & connection point








I took the frame back to the workbench welding jig
...& inserted it in between the boards (inverted) to get the trailing/leading arm mounting brackets welded on








After welding, I removed the temporary mockup screws & cleaned it up a bit








...then, welded the holes 








Since there was a significant gap between the (flat) bracket & the (round) frame rail, I cut a piece of ~1/8" steel rod 








...& inserted it in the gap








...then, welded them on good-n-solid








* Notice the bluish color?
...that's an indicator of a weld that has "penetrated" good into/with the base material

Here on the inside of the piece too


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

To help "square" things up
...& while I had the frame in the welding jig
...I went ahead & welded the front & rear "cross members" on








...which also double as "bumpers"








...& now, the overall frame length is ~72" (~1/2" shorter than the 72.6" overall length listed on conversion chart)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Then, Winter showed up (with a vengeance) 
...& the temp got down to ~0* (factored Wind Chill of ~ -30*)
...with high wind advisories (gusts up to ~40MPH)
...plus, (free bonus) ~4" of snow
...& the Christmas Holiday too

So, thinking about a potential/future ways to fabricate a body, I did some Origami








I started off with the cargo area floor, floorboard (under the seat) & inner fenders








Then, did some cutting & folding








...& added some clear tape to "lock" it together








The cargo floor should be ~18" x ~18"
...with inner fenders ~4" tall & ~4" wide
...& an overall floor board width of ~30"

* Notice how a floor board like this, can easily be mounted on top of the (upper) frame rails?


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I asked Santa for a short Winter

It was ~0* last Friday
...& today (the very next Friday) it's ~50* 

So, back to the workbench 

Next up, shock mounting brackets.

I could cut & bend some (like the trailing arm mounting brackets)
...but, another way to make brackets, is to cut ~1" slices out of a square tube (appropriate ID size of tube)

Set up a jig 
...& cut a bunch of pieces








...then, cut-out/remove (1) wall








Then, just clean them up
...& drill some holes 

Here is a faux (mock) shock w/mounting brackets








...& another view


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I got some coil-over shocks
but,
Mini-Jeep coil-over shocks (part # MJ-122122)
...seem to be for a ~4:1 scale Power Wheels size Mini-Jeep
...because they are little "dinky" things
...& are only ~4" from bolt to bolt
&
We need shocks that are ~6" from bolt to bolt, for our ~2:1 scale Mini-Jeep
...&/so, the bigger ones are (part #MJ-123122) 








Here is the rear trailing arm, with coil-over shock "mocked" in place (with screws)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

* The Wrangler is one of the few remaining four-wheel-drive vehicles with solid front and rear axles.
These axles are known for their durability, strength, and articulation.
Another benefit of solid axle vehicles is they tend to be easier and cheaper to "lift" with aftermarket suspension systems.
This increases the distance between the axle and chassis of the vehicle.
By increasing this distance, larger tires can be installed, which will increase the ground clearance, allowing it to traverse even larger and more difficult obstacles.

In addition to higher ground clearance, many owners aim to increase suspension articulation or "flex" to give their Jeeps greatly improved off-road capabilities.
Good suspension articulation keeps all four wheels in contact with the ground and maintains traction.

With this in mind, I thought why not try & incorporate some "liftability" into the suspension system
...so, I made up some multi-hole, upper shock mounting brackets
...with holes for "mock" screws (on the top side)








Using (4) hole brackets, should give us (4) different height levels

* Notice, the shock needed to be inverted, for clearance purposes 

So, it looks like "if" the shock is mounted in the top hole, the (standard) _available _suspension "travel" (from the rear of the trailing arm to the frame) seems to be ~3 1/2"









In the second hole, it seems to have ~5 1/2" of _available_ "travel"









In the third hole, were up to ~7" of _available_ "travel"








...& when in the fourth hole, it looks like we will have ~9" of _available_ "travel"








So, it looks like "if" we max-out the suspension, it'll give us ~6" of extra lift


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Too late, but don't understand why your spring mounts are so far away from the axle flanges.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> Too late, but don't understand why your spring mounts are so far away from the axle flanges


The "space" (at least, on the left side) is where the brake mounting bracket, will attach, to the trailing arm
...but, it's not too late, the spring mounts are _currently_ only attached with/by _mock up _screws
...& can still be easily, re-positioned 

* A good design/designer _tries to_ leave its/his options open (at least, for as long as possible)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Kinda been "bouncing" back & forth between the front & rear (everything _has to_ work out in the end)
...so, back to the front suspension

Here is a drawing of one of my original ideas for connecting the loose "ends" of the leading arms.
...just basically, long U-brackets that will help control the "traveling end" of the leading arms

* I can see the future
...BUMP-SLAP, BUMP-SLAP 
...& then, SLAP-BUMP, SLAP-BUMP
Um...I don't think so








So, here is an upgraded idea, using rubber bushings as "stops"
...but, still not really Jeep-like









So then I thought, maybe something like this








In this concept, the Leading Arms will "break" in the middle (right under the shock)
...& so, the "end" needs to be able to "swing" (just like _real_ leaf springs)

Here we go, this looks more Jeep-like
...& will "swing"  








Anyone know what the brackets are called, that connect the "swinging" end of a leaf spring? (highlighted in yellow)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

4 hours later 
...& we have (2) front Leading Arms (on left) with (rear) bushings & holders

Also, (2) rear Leading Arms (on right) with (rear) bushing holders
...bushing connecting brackets (front)
...& lower shock mounting brackets (welded on top of the bushing connecting bracket)








* Notice, I welded the brackets (on the front) on the rear Leading Arm from the inside, to keep the backside "clean" 
...so it can "double" as a backstop to (one side of) the rubber Axle to Leading Arm bushing 








** Notice the bluing on both pieces, indicating "good" heat penetration, from/during the welding process

After (partial) assembly, I can get accurate measurements for where the front ends of the Leading Arms need to be cut
...& where the front bushing holder will need to be mounted


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They're called overconstrained joints.

Those "spring shackles" are used on leaf springs to accommodate their effective lengthening as they bend. Your swing arms are not supposed to bend and will not lengthen.

You went out of your way to not use light trailer (or golf cart) leaf springs, which would allow you to use shackles and a normal shock absorber. And, most of all, they look like leaf springs 😈

Now your beautiful "leaf spring look" bent tube has to have a pivot under your coilovers, turning your upside down arch into a "W". ugh:








I'd suggest going with leaf springs, cuz two well-fed (I've been to Ohio... 😂) adults in your Jeepette turning the "leaf" swing arm tube into a "W" is gunna look totally dorky. IMNHO...


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Here is (1) of the top front bushing holders (to be welded to the frame, right behind the bumper) 








* Notice, I welded just around the tube, to help maintain a cleaner "look" 








To cut the 1/2 hole out, I clamped (2) pieces of 1" square tube together
...& drilled a 1/4" "pilot hole" (in between them)
...then, used a 1" hole saw to cut the hole out (yup, both at once)








After cutting








...& all ready for welding








...& here they are "in place"


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> View attachment 134649
> 
> They're called overconstrained joints.
> 
> ...


Hey Remy,
OK, overconstrained joints, Thanks!  
...but, you're not thinking mini or cost effective or (more importantly) custom

Size:
Golf carts are kinda medium sized
...& a light trailer would be used to haul something like this mini-Jeep around

Cost:
Golf Cart/light trailer leaf springs are at least $20.00 ea., plus hardware, & shocks 
...so, easily $50.00 (if not more) per corner (x 4 = ~$200.00)

Custom:
My faux leaf spring concept, I have maybe $20.00 in steel 
...& the (4) "double duty" coil-over shock/springs are ~$15.00 ea. 
...plus, materials for my DIY bushings ~$10.00 (so, let's say ~$100.00 total)
...but, totally custom 

Also, if you look closely, these little coil-over shocks only have ~1" of available travel
...so, the faux leaf springs couldn't really ever de-arch into a "W" (& look dorky) 

Here is my *custom* faux leaf spring, Jeep-like front suspension (unloaded)








...& here is what it "would" look like "if" loaded to capacity (I removed the shock for this demo pic)

* Notice that the overconstrained joints do swing, a little bit, with the suspension travel (just like a Jeep)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I had to make some more bushings.

Remember, the original dual-Trailing Arm concept only needed (4)
...but now, we need (10) of them

This time the auto parts store sold me some kool looking (supposedly premium) red 1/2" ID rubber fuel line









Just had to cut it to length & insert some 1 1/2" x 3/8" ID x 1/2" OD steel tubes








Kinda like this








Dual Dog Bones (front (2) sections of the faux leaf springs) with upgraded bushings (part # MJ-010323R)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Did anyone notice that the front upper shock mount only has (2) bolt holes? 
...& not (4) like the rear








It's because, the (4) level selectable "lift" concept could not be used (on the angle) in the front (like in the rear) due to the shocks hitting/clashing with the axle tube
...& having the (4) holes horizontally, didn't effect the height very much

A solution (many Jeeps use) would be to make a couple of "modified" lift pieces (upper shock mounts & shackles)
...but, they would probably be height specific (meaning a different set of brackets would be needed, for each height)








I'm not "messing" with this, (for now) I just wanted to mention it, before moving on


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

*Design Evolution*
In the first designs, that I drew up of this mini-Jeep, it was to simply have dual (1) piece curved Trailing Arms. 

The idea was just to give it some suspension, that kinda look like leaf springs.








Then, the front Trailing Arm evolved into individual Trailing Arms (to aid articulation)
...then, (with Brians help) the front individual Trailing Arms evolved into individual Leading Arms

Now, (with the "break" in the middle) we have IMO a custom front suspension that looks like a Jeep
...& may even have a bit of articulation to it, like a Jeep  








* Trying different options, it's looking like having the steering linkage (tie rod) in front of the axle (with the Spindle Arms "leading") will work out better (for suspension travel clearance & for steering shaft attachment) 

** Also, notice I'm using CAD to mock a floorboard


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

We now have what would be referred to, in the go kart world, as a "roller" (just a frame with wheels)
...so, I've been "knee deep" in CAD (Cardboard Aided Design) working on a/the body  

*Design Options
Flat sides or a couple of transitions*
Here is what the floorboard would look like if we went with just "flat" sides 
(The side body panels, would pretty much just be flat, all of the way from the front to the back)








Here is another view (from the front of the vehicle) of the "flat sides" floorboard concept
To elaborate, the floorboard has flat sides 
...then, the inner fender curve to meet the body
...& then the sides would just go straight back








Here is a view of the transitions concept
The floorboard has flat sides 
...then, the inner fender would curve slightly 
...& flattens out, in the cowl area
...then slightly curve again, to meet with the body 
...& then, it's pretty much straight back
(kinda like this)








Another view (of the 2 options) from the rear (transition on the left & flat sides on the right)








Side view, of the flat side concept
* Notice how the side would be just totally flat, from the front wheel well to where it curves the rear








...& another view








IMO the flat side concept would be easier to do (accomplish) 
...but, I think we're going to try to do a couple of transitions 

It's kinda starting to look like a Jeep


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Some may ask, "Why ya workin on the body already?
...ya ain't even got the steering assembly done yet."

Well, it's because "the foot bone is connected to the leg bone" if ya know what I mean.  
...& we can't advance on the steering until we know where the upper steering will mount
...& we won't know where "that" is, until we establish a/the dash bar
...& we can't establish the dash bar until we know where the cowl will be
...& so, we need to work on the body 








The dash bar is/will be the "main mast" that supports, the upper body
...& also, a place to mount the upper steering bushing
but, & also, 
I was thinking, if strategically positioned, inside/under the front edge, of the cowl
...it will provide a good-n-strong place to mount the hood hinges 
...& the windshield hinges too

* Notice the body side transitions? (flat-transition-flat-transition-flat)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

And your legbone has to fit under that dashbone


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> And your legbone has to fit under that dashbone


Hey Remy,
Well, it looks like, we may have, roughly 
...probably ~40" from the rear edge of the seat down to the pedals
...& then, maybe ~17" from the bottom of the dash bar down to the floorboard 

* That's waaaaay more "room" than, I have in my Aerial Atom kart


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

The cowl is/will be wider than the frame rails are
...so, the sides of it should extend down to the floorboard
...& then, angle/come inwards, to intersect with the frame rails

*Dashbar (V1) *
This version seemed like at the bottom, where the bars angles inwards, it would intrude into the foot area too much








*Dashbar (V2)*
This version wouldn't intrude into the foot area
...but, IDK, I just wasn't "feeling it"








*Dashbar (V3)*
This version is nice-n-simple
...& will just need a couple of extensions added, for mounting to the frame rails








*Nerf Bars*
Nerf Bars have been added to Jeeps to provide additional side impact protection
...& as "step bar" to help folks get into the vehicle when they have "lifted" bodies/suspensions

They also, provide "slide protection" for if/when "off roading"
...&/if the vehicle slides sideways, down an embankment, the Nerf Bars help protect the body from tree trunks, boulders etc.

So, I'm thinking adding Nerf Bars will enhance the "Jeep look"
...& give me a good-n-secure place to mount the dashbar.

Kinda like this








So, I incorporated them into the design & added some Nerf Bars








Mock'ed up the Dashbar (nice-n-square)
















...& tac'ed in place








* I even deviated from the "scale" a little bit (for my buddy Remy) 
...& made the dashbar height, an extra ~2" higher (~17") 

** It was supposed to be ~14" at the bottom
...& ~15" on the top


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A rollbar could tie nicely into your dashbar...


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

To "test" the axle articulation, I "drove it" over some uneven terrain (a can of snack mix)  








Another view (coil-over shock removed for demonstration purposes) 








Kinda like the "Big Boys"


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

When you do that, check how compressed the bushings are. With one side full up, your "leaf spring" mounts get a fair bit shorter on the transverse axis...

You'll have a tradeoff there on stability and dynamics during turns, vs articulating without binding, possibly needing an arm from axle center to the frame. I think I mentioned this before.

Looks good though...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Had a mental block on "Panhard bar" this morning.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> When you do that, check how compressed the bushings are. With one side full up, your "leaf spring" mounts get a fair bit shorter on the transverse axis...
> 
> You'll have a tradeoff there on stability and dynamics during turns, vs articulating without binding, possibly needing an arm from axle center to the frame. I think I mentioned this before.
> 
> Looks good though...


Hey Remy,
Thanks! 

Yup, we previously discussed the possibility of needing a Panhard Bar 
...but, thinking about it, I cannot remember ever seeing one on a Jeep like this before (& I've towed a lot of Jeeps)
...so, we'll re-address the issue "if" it becomes an issue 

* I'm mainly building a piece of *Functional Art* to "run" in our yearly local Jeep Fest parade 
...not really for intense off-roading (but, ya should know, I'm going to do some "testing") 
...& I'm just trying to incorporate as many Jeep-like features as possible 
...& also, using my mini-Jeep as a "vehicle" to demonstrate some DIY building techniques for you'all


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Glad you're being a sport about "our" inputs and critique 😛

Yes, it should be a fairly easy retrofit if there's no binding right now, and your bushings aren't being severely compressed, during articulation.

Yup, picking up a lot on methods and techniques. Thanks for sharing your bag of tricks here. Even if it inspires one kid to get off a Nintendo and build one, it's a raging success, imo.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

Hey Remy,
Your very welcome.
I enjoy sharing 

I agree 100% (video games & smart phones SUCK, in that regard) 

Here is what she looks like with the Nerf Bars
...& the body side (with transitions)
...& the cowl (with the dashbar underneath)

* Notice how the Nerf Bar can/will act as a step too (just like on a full size Jeep)


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

I think the nerf might look bettee following the bodyline shadow as far as looks go. Won't snag trees that way as well.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> I think the nerf might look bettee following the bodyline shadow as far as looks go. Won't snag trees that way as well.


Did you forget about the front fenders?

Once the fenders are mounted, the Nerf Bars will follow the body line.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

🤪


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## nobled2 (10 mo ago)

Functional Artist said:


> Hey Remy,
> Thanks!
> 
> Yup, we previously discussed the possibility of needing a Panhard Bar
> ...


Jeeps with actual leaf springs do not need track bars and most YJ's that came with them from the factory end up with them in the scrap pile because they inhibit articulation. TJ and newer jeeps with coils do require them to locate the axles laterally. There is nothing else to keep axle centered


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

This is not a Jeep and the lateral stability of leaf springs is gone in this build. What he's doing may be ok for a low speed toy, so not a problem.

I have yet to see a leaf spring car with a Panhard bar.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> This is not a Jeep and the lateral stability of leaf springs is gone in this build. What he's doing may be ok for a low speed toy, so not a problem.
> 
> I have yet to see a leaf spring car with a Panhard bar.


Hey Remy,
"This is not a Jeep", it's a mini-Jeep  

IIRC 
I remember changing the Panhard bar bushings on the front of some of our (early 2000's) Ford F550 tow trucks & flatbeds (& they had leaf springs) in an effort to eliminate the re-occurring "Death Wobble" (didn't help)


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

I put my CAD "program" into overdrive
...& it "spit" out a floorboard 








...& so, I fabricated & installed a steering column


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They swapped out the front suspension to imorove the truck, then dropped the 7.3 for one engine disaster after another 🤦‍♂️

With the Jeepette's current front suspension design, am curious if you ever worked for Ford in the 1990's? 😂


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

remy_martian said:


> They swapped out the front suspension to imorove the truck, then dropped the 7.3 for one engine disaster after another 🤦‍♂️
> 
> With the Jeepette's current front suspension design, am curious if you ever worked for Ford in the 1990's? 😂


Um...it's a mini-Jeep 

I've been self-employed since I got out of high school 
...but, I've worked on a "hell" of a lot of Fords  

We ran Ford Tow trucks & Flatbeds (exclusively) for many, many years (but, never again)
...now, I just "run" an Isuzu NPR Flatbed (IMO a much better truck) 
* Better mileage, turning radius, quality, visibility, easier to maintenance etc.


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## Functional Artist (Aug 8, 2016)

*Steering Column*
The steering column will be comprised of a 5/8" rod, a couple of pieces of steel tube (left over from making the front axle) a Pitman Arm & (3) plastic bushings (harvested from wheelbarrow wheels)








I added the outer tube/bushing holder so it would look more like an actual steering coulmn
...& not, just be a steering wheel on the end of a rod.

* Notice, the upper bushing holder has upper & lower bushings
...& the lower bushing holder holds just (1)








* I also, welded the Pitman Arm on to the steering shaft from the bottom side to keep the top side nice-n-clean, for "riding up against" the bottom bushing


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