# [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I think so if
you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
pulled about 5C from them several times, maybe he will give a counter
opinion. Problem is neither of us can give you lifetime data. You of
course will loose some acceleration with 120V too.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-60ah-144volts-vs-100ah-120-volts-tp3079333p3079466.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If tomw is contemplating switching from lead to lithium (his post does 
not make it clear) then I would have thought whatever loss of 
acceleration he gets from dropping the system voltage from 144 to 120V 
would more than be compensated for by the loss of around 400lbs of 
lead. But Tomw hasn't told us what size his existing batteries are, 
so I've had to make some fundamental guesses here. It would save a 
lot of time if posters would include their evalbum reference or other 
basic data if relevant to their post.

It is the top speed that will suffer most due to the drop in system 
volts.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> tomw wrote:
> 
> >
> > "but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 10:38:22AM +0000, Martin WINLOW wrote:
> If tomw is contemplating switching from lead to lithium (his post does 
> not make it clear) then I would have thought whatever loss of 
> acceleration he gets from dropping the system voltage from 144 to 120V 
> would more than be compensated for by the loss of around 400lbs of 
> lead. But Tomw hasn't told us what size his existing batteries are, 
> so I've had to make some fundamental guesses here. It would save a 
> lot of time if posters would include their evalbum reference or other 
> basic data if relevant to their post.

Kyle Bonds was the OP. This is probably his EVAlbum page:
http://www.evalbum.com/1783

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 88 days 3 hours 20 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes I'm running 100Ah SE/CALB cells and have hit 5.5C for a few seconds and
normally run between 1-2C. No noticeable effects so far but it's only been
less than a year and maybe 6K miles so far. Also the SE/CALB cells claim
higher discharge tolerance than TS, but who knows.




> tomw wrote:
> >
> > "but am I just gambling my hard-earned money by under-sizing?" I think so
> > if you use prismatic cells like TS or CALB. JRP3 has 100Ah cells and has
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lowering the pack voltage will lower the maximum RPM of the motor.......I
guess if you have a transmission that is not a big problem.......me



> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Yes I'm running 100Ah SE/CALB cells and have hit 5.5C for a few seconds and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis =

Elsberry, MO =

http://www.evalbum.com/1366 =



-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]] =

Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>
> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if =

> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts. 
> My worry is that pulling 150 amps for 5 minutes on my commute every =

> morning and evening, and 200 amps for 10 seconds every morning to pull =

> out onto the road, would kill the 60ah batteries.

I would say that's pushing them far too hard. You shouldn't go above 1C at=
cruising speed.
And in cold weather the voltage sag will make it undriveable, unless you're=
planning to heat them as well.

If you're happy with 15 miles range and don't have much money, stick with l=
ead, or you'll just be buying yourself a problem.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't doubt that 3C is reasonably safe to draw for extended periods of
time but there are lies, damned lies, and things that marketing people put
in brochures. It is, of course, always better to draw as small a fraction of
the battery power as possible for as long as possible. That's after all how
you get better range. Also, being easier on the batteries makes them last
longer. Lithium batteries are expensive enough that you should treat them
like the Queen of England.

I've got an 80AH pack and on acceleration the system can draw about 150A
(this is an AC 340V system) and while cruising it's not usually above
60-80A. So in my case I'm staying at the 1C cruising level which is good.
This system can do approximately 100 miles to a charge.


On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Pestka, Dennis J <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Evan;
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Collin Kidder wrote:
> 
> > I've got an 80AH pack and on acceleration the system can draw about 150A
> > (this is an AC 340V system) and while cruising it's not usually above
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My bench test show that they get fairly warm at 3C discharge. That is 
from full charge to the knee. The core temp of the cell went from 72 
deg F to 131 deg F. This was for a 100 Ah cell similar to TS.



> Dennis J wrote:
> 
> > Evan;
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Pestka, Dennis J


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Evan;
> >
> > Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dennis,

>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
Their continuous rating is 0.3C

they will do 1C continuous.

at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% of 
original capacity.

keep the continuous discharge rate down.

it sorta scales exponentially

Matt


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?


Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> >
> > I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> > I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OUCH!!
More detail please.
1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of matt lacey
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

Dennis,

>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
Their continuous rating is 0.3C

they will do 1C continuous.

at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% of 
original capacity.

keep the continuous discharge rate down.

it sorta scales exponentially

Matt


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?


Evan;

Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> >
> > I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> > I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the input. The siren call of having an affordable pack
that weighs a third of what my lead pack weighs had gotten my hopes up. I
have AGMs in the car now (so that I did not have to deal with the fumes from
the floodies) and the damn lies of the salesmen sunk me. The AGMs are not
up to the task, and stepping up to a small truck would cost too much for
now.






> Mark Grasser <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > OUCH!!
> > More detail please.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Guys,

> OUCH!!
> More detail please.
> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?

Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining

continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)

>Wow. I've NEVER heard this before. Could you provide links to
>supporting information? I've got CALB 60Ah batteries and I'm typically
>running 0.9 to 1.2 C during cruise.

http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28

Theres CALB's data sheet.
it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.

discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.

at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant early 
reduction in capacity.

My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old scooter, 
thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.

Matt


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?


> OUCH!!
> More detail please.
> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of matt lacey
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> Dennis,
>
>>Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> No no, those are for 30 seconds only.
> Their continuous rating is 0.3C
>
> they will do 1C continuous.
>
> at 1.4C continuous with 4C peaks, my 40Ah cells lasted 500 cycles to 60% 
> of
> original capacity.
>
> keep the continuous discharge rate down.
>
> it sorta scales exponentially
>
> Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
>
> Evan;
>
> Curious to your comment about not going above 1C at cruising speed.
> Specs for Thundersky show constant current at 3C and CALB shows 4C.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
> http://www.evalbum.com/1366
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 6:27 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium 60ah 144volts vs 100ah 120 volts?
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Kyle Bonds <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I am short on cash, and have been happy with my 15 mile range, and if
> >> I use 60ah lithiums I can afford the switch and still have 144 volts.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you need to draw high currents for relatively short periods, you might 
consider a "hybrid" battery. Use the lithium for range, with a small AGM 
lead battery (perhaps 10-20ah) in parallel with it for short term 
acceleration. For that purpose you might even use small and inexpensive SLI 
batteries.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> matt lacey wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Hi Guys,
>
> Thundersky 40Ah cells, 02-Oct-2007 production date
> discharge depth was between 30% and 80%, with an average around 50%.
> 60% of 40Ah, or 24Ah capacity remaining
>
> continuous discharge rate was 55A (necessary to maintain 35mph)
>
> http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=28
>
> Theres CALB's data sheet.
> it looks like TS have increased their true continuous current to 0.5C.
>
> discharging faster reduces cycle life exponentially.
>
> at 1.4C you get better than 500 cycles.
> at 1C the service life is long enoguh I haven't heard of significant 
> early
> reduction in capacity.
>
> My new bike runs at 1.1C at 70mph, ([email protected]) but unlike the old 
> scooter,
> thats not from the moment I turn it on to the moment I turn it off.
> Thats just when I'm going reasonably fast.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>> OUCH!!
>> More detail please.
>> 1. Thundersky or Sky energy?
>> 2. Were they early ones or new and improved?
>> 3. How far were you discharging them? 100%, 80%?
>> 4. Same question a different way. 60% of what?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Grasser
>>

Interestingly enough, I have just checked TS' website and there is a 
new manual up (I only had one dated Jan '09). It has changed a bit, 
most notably nothing about continuous discharge but a lot about max 
charge rate - 3C max with max case temp of 85 deg C. To me this would 
suggest a continuous 3C DISCHARGE is OK too. But as was mentioned 
earlier, the lower the rates in both cases, the longer the cells will 
live.

Also changed is the operating voltage. Although the absolute min 
volts is still 2.0V, they state that for 3k cycles min volts must be 
kept above 2.5V.

This may all be relevant only to the new Yttrium cells, of course.

I think TS cells made a bit of a leap in quality during 2007/8. When  
I bought mine in August they had all Al posts. I gather now they are 
Cu & Al.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the answers. I have to say my interpretation of your
experience does NOT validate the hypothesis the higher-amperage
discharges reduces the life span.



> matt lacey wrote:
> > there were 5 occasions where discharge was to 100% (cell voltages around 2v at no load)
> > capacity measured on next discharge did not show any immediate loss of capacity.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I doubt there was any cell reversal at all, especially since they returned to
2V at rest. Cell reversal suggests a dead cell while a resting voltage of
2V does not. From what others have described there was some poor quality
control in TS cells before 2009 or so.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lithium-60ah-144volts-vs-100ah-120-volts-tp3079333p3084251.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> AMPhibian wrote:
> > I doubt there was any cell reversal at all, especially since they returned to
> > 2V at rest. Cell reversal suggests a dead cell while a resting voltage of
> > 2V does not. From what others have described there was some poor quality
> ...


----------

