# Racing Controllers!



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Boy this is a touchy subject. But, I am very interested in what the difference is in the 1/4 mile, 2000amps of a "short burst" then dropping below 750amps, or 1000amps continuous.


From all the data I've seen from the Zilla (like graphs from Plasmaboys homepage etc) I can tell you that:



A well cooled Zilla Z2K will give you enough Amps long enough (definitely for 1/4 mile) to beat a S1, all other things equal. The S1 MIGHT win in the long run (Cafe Electrics own specs says that a Z2K drops to 900 Amps continuously, but I have no first hand data on that so I haven't been able to verify), but not on the drag racing strip. That's Z2K-territory for now.
Your biggest limit (besides the motor current limit) that will affect the slip time will be the battery pack. If you have a crappy pack the 2kA will drop rapidly to much more mediocre currents as RPM (and thus motor voltage) increases so it's definitely possible that if you're on a budget a S1 with a good pack will be a better pick than a Z2K with a crappy pack. After all, a chain isn't stronger than it's weakest link. However, if money's not a problem Z2K is your winner, no doubt about that.
You better hurry buying a Z2K if you want one. I doubt Otmar has many left now...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I thank you for your input. I need first hand racers to respond who race with Zilla Z2k's, I have heard they might drop all the way down to 700 amps after the burst of 2000amps. I am looking for seconds that a Zilla holds 2000amps? 

Being a drag racer of many types of vehicles with many style engines (Mopar/Chevy), I have learned over the years that your engines "power bands" must be matched to rear differentials. Knowing this with building an EV dragster you can use your "motor/battery/controller" power bands "peaks" to build a fast race car. If you know you "peak power" will start strong and stay strong through the race you match that band to your rear, if you know your "peak power" will start very strong then die as the band continuous then you must match your gears to that style.

For example, you will find racers will do faster runs once they have figured out the proper gear ratio to "camshaft lift/duration" of a ICE. 

Watch some drag racing, some cars will jump from the line but lose it in the end, that is the difference in racing. Matching your components. 



Qer said:


> From all the data I've seen from the Zilla (like graphs from Plasmaboys homepage etc) I can tell you that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I plan on testing my 300ZX with the Soliton 1 with a very very strong battery pack and two Netgain 11" motors. I will test with 3 different sets of gear ratios (quick change rear) at a local 1/4 strip that is private air field here in CT. If my times are close to 10's then we will use the Soliton 1 for our 2011 season. The car will not be in White Zombie's class because I am tubbing out the rear with a shortened rear. The 300ZX comes with a 3 piece rear style differeintials that I cannot use with two 11" motors. George at Netgain said these motors together will / have blown up 3 piece rear ends. 

The Mits 3000GT will use the Soliton1, I plan on racing the Mits in some road courses also.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I plan on testing my 300ZX with the Soliton 1 with a very very strong battery pack and two Netgain 11" motors. I will test with 3 different sets of gear ratios (quick change rear) at a local 1/4 strip that is private air field here in CT. If my times are close to 10's then we will use the Soliton 1 for our 2011 season. The car will not be in White Zombie's class because I am tubbing out the rear with a shortened rear. The 300ZX comes with a 3 piece rear style differeintials that I cannot use with two 11" motors. George at Netgain said these motors together will / have blown up 3 piece rear ends.
> 
> The Mits 3000GT will use the Soliton1, I plan on racing the Mits in some road courses also.


Why not use two Soliton1's ....one for each motor, and get them opened up for 1400 amps each? (if you meet the criteria....and can talk Jeff and Qer into it... )


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have heard this is possible. I know the Soliton 1 can go to 1400amps. I would have to speak with Jeff/George if this is possible. 

I know Jeff reads these boards and posts, please respond on this question, is it possible?  You may not recommend it for every day use or the basic street racer, but my monster 300ZX will handle anything it can get.

I can call George at EVNetcis (my contact) but I would love for Jeff to respond public or private. 

Remember Jeff, with Zilla's no longer available racers are looking for the next answer. My situtation is different than most racers because I am using two motors. 

I am a Auto Technician not an electrical engineer, I need advice when it comes to the electronics. I will have the car ready with a 4 link shortened rear, tubbed wheels and a few frame supports. The seats are being replaced with race seats (much lighter) no trans (much lighter) the body is mostly be replaced with all carbon fiber. Car might be under 3000lbs. 



DIYguy said:


> Why not use two Soliton1's ....one for each motor, and get them opened up for 1400 amps each? (if you meet the criteria....and can talk Jeff and Qer into it... )


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I love learning this new technology being applied into the racing scene. It is going to be hard for me and my partners to impress my drag racing buddies to drop their ICE's and go electric unless I prove it on the track.

Shoot I'll buy / install 5 Solitons in the car if it will help, LOL.  

I haven't taken much time to look into the design of battery to controller to motor, because I have been busy designing the rear and other section of the dragster, but the time is coming soon when the motors will be shipped so this controller wiring issue needs to be configured. 

Looking for all the electrical engineers help!


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have heard this is possible. I know the Soliton 1 can go to 1400amps. I would have to speak with Jeff/George if this is possible.


We discontinued the 1400A option a long time ago both because 1400A peak still won't compete with a Z2K in a drag race so why bother and because the Big Sol is on the way. That said, Big Sol is on the slow development track, mainly because it is a total money loser for Evnetics, and only good for bragging rights/advertising. 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I know Jeff reads these boards and posts...


I read SOME of this board... I work most days - including weekends - from 5am until 7-8p. In between that I might check a message or two on the forums, etc., but don't think for a minute I read every one of them. I simply don't have the time.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Remember Jeff, with Zilla's no longer available racers are looking for the next answer. My situtation is different than most racers because I am using two motors.


Otmar finally ran out of Z2Ks, huh? IIRC, he had about 10-15 in stock a year ago... that snail-like sales rate is why Big Sol is the red-headed stepchild of the Evnetics development schedule...

Most racers use two motors, btw. If you are using the WarP11HV motor be advised that if you wire them in series you will run out of voltage (RPM) really early on, but if you wire them in parallel you don't get the same off the line pull. As far as I can tell, the WarP11HV is really meant to be used in single motor applications.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Most racers use two motors, btw. If you are using the WarP11HV motor be advised that if you wire them in series you will run out of voltage (RPM) really early on, but if you wire them in parallel you don't get the same off the line pull. As far as I can tell, the WarP11HV is really meant to be used in single motor applications.


Wouldn't using two motors with a Soliton for each be the same thing?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Thanks for responding. The 300ZX is not using the 11"HV motor, the 3000GT is using one 11"HV motor. We are installing the dual "regular" 11" Netgain Motors already connected together, George will have my motors ready in December. He said this same "set-up" ripped the rear end out of a BMW, torque city. That is why I am installing a 4 link drag racing rear. Now that you know my motors in the 300ZX are not HV, will two controllers improve anything? What are your thoughts?



Tesseract said:


> We discontinued the 1400A option a long time ago both because 1400A peak still won't compete with a Z2K in a drag race so why bother and because the Big Sol is on the way. That said, Big Sol is on the slow development track, mainly because it is a total money loser for Evnetics, and only good for bragging rights/advertising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

i am pretty sure it applies to any DC motor....in series the motors are sharing voltage so with 50% applied to each...300V system mean 150V each, you wont have much area under the curve...in parallel as jeff mentioned, the motors would rev up to 5000rpm no problem but the amperage form the soliton would be shared, 500A to each motor is not what drag racers are looking for...

JRP3 mentioned buying two solitons, that would be what you want to do...

1000A and 300V to each one...granted with voltage sag you will probably only get 250V...so 250kw x2 = 500kw = 671hp NICE

Just make sure and have a battery pack that wont be abused too much if you pull 2000A out of it... A123s maybe...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I am pretty much at a loss for this thread.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

So, if I am understanding this correctly, if i use two Soliton 1 controllers I can have each motor at 1000amps, but I will need a very strong battery pack to support the sag. Will one battery pack over 340V handle it, or will I need more because of the two seperate motors and controllers? 



Bowser330 said:


> i am pretty sure it applies to any DC motor....in series the motors are sharing voltage so with 50% applied to each...300V system mean 150V each, you wont have much area under the curve...in parallel as jeff mentioned, the motors would rev up to 5000rpm no problem but the amperage form the soliton would be shared, 500A to each motor is not what drag racers are looking for...
> 
> JRP3 mentioned buying two solitons, that would be what you want to do...
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am sure you will run and have a place to discuss this thread.



major said:


> I am pretty much at a loss for this thread.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Why is Shawn's bike using two Zilla controllers for one motor, what is the benefit? 

"The bike features a GE 13-inch forklift DC motor that used to reside in Dennis Berube's electric drag racing S-10 truck, _Smokescreen_. The motor is fed by two Zilla 2K controllers and a 360 volt pack of A123 lithium batteries."


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

They talk about using two controllers on this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/evdl-kelley-controller-e-bay-7232p3.html

I need the proper info, will keep searching.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I am sure you will run and have a place to discuss this thread.


I am pretty much at a loss for this thread. Before it got locked out, the OP said


> EV race experience does not matter, DRAG RACING experience matters. In that department I have over 20 years.


 He behaved so badly that no EV racer, that I know about, would be willing to help him figure out a controller problem. And I've seen those guys help each other out, no matter where they lived, and newbies as well. Even lending a controller to a competitor for a race. I might have some input, this is all I am willing to say.

major

That is what I edited out on a second thought. So much for trying to be somewhat nice. If you're such a great drag racer and EV racing doesn't matter, why are you begging for advice? You got no clue.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bingo!!!!

Found what I needed to know. Read this guys blog, very helpful:

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/34ford.html


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Major,

You know why I dislike you, you have attacked me and my organization in every step. I have no idea why you even posted on my thread. My experience is in auto/bike mechanics. I have never claimed to know EV controllers or motors. I have built and raced many many fast ICE and bikes. I currently own a custom Harley I built in 2005 with a Chopper Guys frame, TP 124" motor, Zippers carb, etc.....

My interest now is in EV racing, sorry I am here to stay. Many have helped me understand how these EV's operate, I am learning everday. My ability to build race cars matched with my business funding should create many new EV's I am interested in building. I have not even started to go wild yet. 

O'h I was not begging, just asking for help from more experienced gentlemen in electrical engineering.




major said:


> I am pretty much at a loss for this thread. Before it got locked out, the OP said He behaved so badly that no EV racer, that I know about, would be willing to help him figure out a controller problem. And I've seen those guys help each other out, no matter where they lived, and newbies as well. Even lending a controller to a competitor for a race. I might have some input, this is all I am willing to say.
> 
> major
> 
> That is what I edited out on a second thought. So much for trying to be somewhat nice. If you're such a great drag racer and EV racing doesn't matter, why are you begging for advice? You got no clue.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Back to my original questions.

Using two motors creates many options. Paralle or Series wiring. From what I have read:

Parallel Configuration: 360V pack each motor will get 360V.
Serial Configuration: 360V pack each motor will get 180V each.

Can't I use a larger pack with two controllers and wire them parallel so each motor will get the max amps from each controller and the max volts from the battery pack? Maybe this will create more of a battery sag, and drain the cells much faster. 

I see no other way of using two controllers and gaining the max amps from each controller for each motor. 

My motors guys say I can use a controller for each motor. I am still waiting for EVNetics to assist in this matter.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

So my problem will be battery sag and less voltage if I use two controllers.
What would happen if I added a larger battery pack with more volts? Lets say a strong pack around 360 to 380 volts will this hurt the Soliton controllers? 

I need 1000amps to each motor with volts saging aroung to 320V and I will be happy. 

You guys must think I'm a nut! LOL. Just getting my DD completed the kids and wife are sleeping this is my time to rack my brain! 



Bowser330 said:


> i am pretty sure it applies to any DC motor....in series the motors are sharing voltage so with 50% applied to each...300V system mean 150V each, you wont have much area under the curve...in parallel as jeff mentioned, the motors would rev up to 5000rpm no problem but the amperage form the soliton would be shared, 500A to each motor is not what drag racers are looking for...
> 
> JRP3 mentioned buying two solitons, that would be what you want to do...
> 
> ...


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Ok, gonna try to help you here.

Serial: Both motors see half voltage but full current.
Parallel: Both motors see full voltage but half current.

That's why the Zilla can do serial/parallel switching, you start in serial mode so both motors get full current. This works as long as RPM is low enough so the motors don't need more than half the pack voltage, when RPM increases so does the voltage and at a certain RPM current will start to drop. That's when you shift over to parallel mode instead and thus can provide higher voltage to the motors at the cost of half the current. In essence this works a bit like a gear box; you trade torque (current) for RPM (voltage). You get slower acceleration but can achieve higher RPM. With two controllers (one per motor) you get BOTH full motor voltage and full motor current without having to "switch gear". However, since they both pull current from the same pack you have to limit the current in the controller to half the maximum pack current (NOT the same as motor current) to not overload the pack.

There is, however, a catch here. Your pack has to be good for you to really benefit from a dual controller setup. Let's pretend you have a pack on 300 Volt (I'll ignore the sag here to keep things simple(r)) that can provide 800 Ampere and you feed that to two Soliton 1's, then you have to set both Soliton 1's to max 400 Ampere battery current to avoid the combined currents from the controllers (2*400A) to damage the pack. That means that when PWM duration reach 40% (ie not even half the pack voltage) the motor current will start to drop and you end up with the same motor power, 240 kW peak, as if you had one controller and serial/parallel shifting. If you instead have a 300 Volt pack that can provide 1500 Ampere each controller can pull 750 Ampere and motor current won't start to drop until 75% PWM duration and you will get a peak power of 450 kW (maximum in a series/parallel scenario would be 300 kW).

So there's two advantages with using separate controllers per motor rather than series/parallel shifting:



No power out during switching. In the typical Zilla setup the contactor switching takes about 0.2-0.3 seconds.
If the pack can provide enough current the peak power will be higher since you don't cut motor current into half when you shift to parallel mode.

Personally I think that serial/parallel shifting made sense back when the controller were beefier than the pack, for example when White Zombie had a Z2K controller but only lead acid to power it. With Lithium it's possible to build packs that can withstand the abuse much better (not to mention that they weight considerably less, of course). If I've understood correctly WZ don't use S/P-switching anymore and simply use a high enough pack voltage to be able to run the whole race with the motors in series so that one controller can provide 2kA continuously through the whole race (or at least until battery current gets too high).

Hope that cleared things up.

Oh, and there's absolutely no gain in trying to do black magic with the battery pack, get a pack that's strong enough and connect both controllers in parallel to it. Also, the Soliton won't accept anything higher than 342 Volt in, if the pack voltage is higher than that it will simply refuse to engage the contactors and will go into an error state.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Qer,

Thank you for your assistance, do you work for EVNetics? just curious you seem to be well educated in electrical engineering. Thanks again! 



Qer said:


> Ok, gonna try to help you here.
> 
> Serial: Both motors see half voltage but full current.
> Parallel: Both motors see full voltage but half current.
> ...


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Qer,
> 
> Thank you for your assistance, do you work for EVNetics? just curious you seem to be well educated in electrical engineering. Thanks again!


Na, just writes the durn software.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Qer,

Can you just explain this in more detail please. Remember I am a auto technician not an electrical engineer. Some of my questions may seem dumb to you guys, but after years of building ICE cars some of this if like reading "Greek" to me.

"If I've understood correctly WZ don't use S/P-switching anymore and simply use a high enough pack voltage to be able to run the whole race with the motors in series so that one controller can provide 2kA continuously through the whole race (or at least until battery current gets too high)."


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Qer,
> 
> Can you just explain this in more detail please. Remember I am a auto technician not an electrical engineer. Some of my questions may seem dumb to you guys, but after years of building ICE cars some of this if like reading "Greek" to me.
> 
> "If I've understood correctly WZ don't use S/P-switching anymore and simply use a high enough pack voltage to be able to run the whole race with the motors in series so that one controller can provide 2kA continuously through the whole race (or at least until battery current gets too high)."


Quite simple; DC-motors usually can't handle more than ~200 Volt, it differs depending on the construction, I think NetGain recommends ~170 Volt as maximum voltage for their "normal" motors while high Voltage versions might stand 220 Volt or even higher (this is from memory, don't trust these numbers longer than you can throw an elephant ). If you have a pack that's, say, 250 Volt or more and just a single motor you'll have to limit max motor Voltage to whatever's recommended for that model, this of course means that if you have a pack voltage of 400 Volt or so there's no chance the motor(s) can handle more than about half the pack voltage anyway and thus you can as well run a Siamese motor (as WZ has) permanently in series since there's no longer any benefit in switching to parallel.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The concept is deceptively simple... torque is proportional to amps and speed is proportional to volts in a DC motor*. If you wire two motors in series then you get twice the torque for the same amount of current. If you wire them in parallel you can reach twice as high an RPM for a given torque value (assuming the motor can take it). 

What this means is that a single 2000A controller connected to two motors in series will result in twice as much torque from the motors as two 1000A controllers connected to the motors separately. In other words, each motor in the first configuration sees 2000A while each motor in the second configuration sees 1000A. The second configuration will reach twice as high an RPM at 1000A than the first configuration, so whether that is an advantage or not depends on gearing, etc.

The White Zombie seems to have settled on the first configuration. Some of our customers have chosen the second. Either way is legitimate it just takes a deep appreciation of the way electric motors, batteries and controllers all interact with the vehicle's gearing to dial everything in just right.

One last thing... please don't pick fights with other members of this community, especially not with members I both like and respect such as Jeff Major. A lot of people show up on this forum with a swinging dick attitude and what it usually gets them is being ignored by the very people most able to help them. Generally not a good thing just from a practical point of view.

* - an oversimplified but still correct description


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

In regards to Jeff Major I have no problem with the guy, I respect his experience. Just didn't like my azz attacked at every corner. I want peace with everyone. 



Tesseract said:


> The concept is deceptively simple... torque is proportional to amps and speed is proportional to volts in a DC motor*. If you wire two motors in series then you get twice the torque for the same amount of current. If you wire them in parallel you can reach twice as high an RPM for a given torque value (assuming the motor can take it).
> 
> What this means is that a single 2000A controller connected to two motors in series will result in twice as much torque from the motors as two 1000A controllers connected to the motors separately. In other words, each motor in the first configuration sees 2000A while each motor in the second configuration sees 1000A. The second configuration will reach twice as high an RPM at 1000A than the first configuration, so whether that is an advantage or not depends on gearing, etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff your comments below:

*"What this means is that a single 2000A controller connected to two motors in series will result in twice as much torque from the motors as two 1000A controllers connected to the motors separately. In other words, each motor in the first configuration sees 2000A while each motor in the second configuration sees 1000A. The second configuration will reach twice as high an RPM at 1000A" *

The second configuration (parallel) will give me 1000amps at each motor, but higher rpm's at 1000amps. So, going this route using your controllers gives me more volts but NOT more amps. Using basic Netgain 11" motors (not HV motors) how will this help?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

So, again less torque, but more horsepower. Correct?

*" The second configuration will reach twice as high an RPM at 1000A" *

The second configuration (parallel) will give me 1000amps at each motor, but higher rpm's at 1000amps. So, going this route using your controllers gives me more volts but NOT more amps. Using basic Netgain 11" motors (not HV motors) how will this help? [/quote]


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...The second configuration (parallel) will give me 1000amps at each motor, but higher rpm's at 1000amps. So, going this route using your controllers gives me more volts but NOT more amps. Using basic Netgain 11" motors (not HV motors) how will this help?


In 1/4 or 1/8th mile drag racing it will make your goal (of winning) much harder. Accelerating off the line is the most crucial element of drag racing, and you will only have half the current available in each motor as a car like White Zombie. That means you will have to chase serious competitors down in the last half of the race. You're also losing one of the biggest advantages of an electric motor - bottom-end, nearly-instantaneous, torque.

If it were a really, really, lightweight car (say <1500lbs) you might be okay because you would still have enough torque to launch really hard, and then the full voltage available to each motor should let it pull really hard on the top end.

I believe you've stated your car will likely weigh around 3000lbs. The dual 11s are a good choice, but you really need one big monster controller pushing full current through both motors (series-wired) to get that relatively heavy car moving. You also need a really stout battery pack - like 300-400volts/2000amps of the best lithium cells available, so it doesn't sag, bend, or quit.

If you're going after WZ, which will almost certainly be a 9-sec car next season, with a heavier car, with slower turning (but very torquey) 11-inch motors, you have to leave nothing on the table at the starting line. You'll have to beat him with a better chassis, that is fully utilized. That means putting as much torque on the track as possible. That means the ability to put full current in each motor simultaneously. That means series (at least to start).


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I agree with you 100%. I need the torque more than the HP in the 1/4 mile. In regards to the 300ZX, we have changed our plans some that will bring the car out of WZ class, so we are not competing with him. We have tubbed out the car, and installing a shorted rear with 4 link suspension. This will give us more grip on the line. We are also installing carbon fiber panels and have removed the interior. The car might be as light as 2500lbs when race ready. Most of the weight in a 300ZX is the engine/trans/ and 3 piece rear end, that is all gone.

We want to compete and race, thats it. If we crack under ten seconds God Bless! The controller issue is a problem, I will be looking and contacting anyone with controller building experience for our team. WE NEED 2000 AMPS OFF THE LINE, NO LESS FOR THE 300ZX. There are many controller builders out there that might be intertested in making some money! 

We will use the Soliton1 for our 3000GT and Tiburan, but not the 300ZX.



toddshotrods said:


> In 1/4 or 1/8th mile drag racing it will make your goal (of winning) much harder. Accelerating off the line is the most crucial element of drag racing, and you will only have half the current available in each motor as a car like White Zombie. That means you will have to chase serious competitors down in the last half of the race. You're also losing one of the biggest advantages of an electric motor - bottom-end, nearly-instantaneous, torque.
> 
> If it were a really, really, lightweight car (say <1500lbs) you might be okay because you would still have enough torque to launch really hard, and then the full voltage available to each motor should let it pull really hard on the top end.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I get your points there. I saw before where you are doing a back-halved car, which puts you in a different class than WZ. I used WZ as a benchmark because it is the fastest/quickest street-legal, full-bodied, EV drag race vehicle currently out there. From all your posts, you seem to be after record-setting performance. WHy shoot for 11s if the fast guys are in the 9s?

Build the car, snag an old Zilla (if Otmar is out of stock, or won't deal with you) and push it as far as possible first. Commissioning someone to build a custom controller before you have worked out all the bugs is getting way off track. You'll also get much more interest and cooperation if you have a vehicle capable of much more than your "current" time slips reveal.

I'll likely run a Soliton 1 when I get ready to do some serious test-n-tune, until the monster is ready - that's assuming my perfectionist tendencies actually let me build the truck before Tesseract, Qer, and company's let them build Big Sol!  That experience may also prove helpful in developing what's really needed in a monster, yes?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff your comments below:
> 
> *"What this means is that a single 2000A controller connected to two motors in series will result in twice as much torque from the motors as two 1000A controllers connected to the motors separately. In other words, each motor in the first configuration sees 2000A while each motor in the second configuration sees 1000A. The second configuration will reach twice as high an RPM at 1000A" *
> 
> The second configuration (parallel) will give me 1000amps at each motor, but higher rpm's at 1000amps. So, going this route using your controllers gives me more volts but NOT more amps. Using basic Netgain 11" motors (not HV motors) how will this help?


You seem to have gotten it right but drew the wrong conclusion anyway. Two 1000A controllers individually connected to two motors (with common shaft) is the same as one 2000A controller connected to two motors in parallel. But if you connect that single 2000A controller to two motors in series then you get twice the max torque, but half the max RPM, of the dual 1000A controller setup.

Note that the total HP of both systems is the same so the performance of the vehicle (acceleration and top speed) can be the same if the gearing is appropriate for each configuration.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

why not do what we used to do way back when the available controllers were only 250 amps-bypass the controller completely and run direct off the battery when you run past the controller output. How exactly you would connect and disconnect that bypass will be another issue.......but it's not as crazy accelleration as it sounds once the bemf is built up.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## Rocketmaker10000 (Dec 7, 2008)

Trying to stop a shorted 300v connection outside of the controller circuit sounds like a crazy idea to me. Any idea how to actually do it safely without "welding" a bunch of contactors together?


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Doug,
I didn't say we had the answer for that, but years ago with _lead acid_ cars we did use some big clunky contactors and believe it or not, never had a problem with them! Of course, using todays batteries with less internal resistance like A123 or the like, alot more current can be drawn from them in a direct connection like this and who knows what contactor might work. BTW, it is not a shorted 300v connection, there is resistance, plus back emf.
Just a suggestion for the guys that _need _2000 amps 
So much for talking about the old days, just telling the new guys a few tricks from the past....
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Guys I thank you all for your input, whether its old school or new.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I think this controller issue is a great topic, and should continue. The Soliton 1 is a great controller. Just wish the Big Sol or Zilla 2k was available.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I need the torque more than the HP in the 1/4 mile.


Torque is a component of Horse Power. If you increase torque, you increase your HP...assuming the same RPM.

HP = Torque x RPM.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Rocketmaker10000 said:


> Trying to stop a shorted 300v connection outside of the controller circuit sounds like a crazy idea to me. Any idea how to actually do it safely without "welding" a bunch of contactors together?


There is 100 plus years experience breaking an electric mechanically and just a fraction that breaking it in silicon. Transistors have quite the habit of failing shorted on. I've experienced a failed controller and the good old mechanical contactor is what saved my butt. 

To break big amps you need to move the contacts apart, with high voltage farther apart, and do it quickly before they melt. Make sure the contacts have some thermal mass behind them and use materials that don't vaporize easily.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, I agree. When I raced ICE years ago at Englishtown, some cars were set up for massive amounts of torque off the line but lost in the end. Then some cars were set-up for slower starts but a faster ending. This was all controlled by camshaft lobes, timing, and gears. Your engine MUST match your rear gear ratio. If you were running 4:56 rear gears would must have an engine that would gain the most at high rpm's because your high gear ratio. If you had a car running 3:73 in the rear you needed your engine to gain during mid range because your rpms would be limited. One of my cars was a 1968 Dart GTS with a 383 engine, 727 trans, 3500 stall speed convertor, and 4:57 in the rear. The motor had 12:1 compression ratio with a huge cam over 500 lift and over 300 duration. Idle was very choppy but she launched off the line, with the large lobed camshaft I was able to dump more gas in and more exhaust out creating higher rpm's. 

I am just trying to set-up my new EV race car to get the max from the parts available. Let me stop trying to figure this out and ask:

*If you guys had a 300ZX with a shortened rear with slicks. Two 11" Netgain motors, any battery pack you wanted, and the whole car weight below 3000lbs. What controller would you use and how would you run the set-up? *




DIYguy said:


> Torque is a component of Horse Power. If you increase torque, you increase your HP...assuming the same RPM.
> 
> HP = Torque x RPM.


----------



## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I think this controller issue is a great topic, and should continue. The Soliton 1 is a great controller. Just wish the Big Sol or Zilla 2k was available.


Is there a particular reason you want to run just 1 controller. Heck considering what you are aiming for, why only 2000amp? If lithium packs are used, thats where the big chunk of cost come from, more controllers won't add that much relevant cost, why not run 4 Solution1's ?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Now you guys are going to have me start drinking! Are you serious? Can you use more controllers than two? 



Salty EV said:


> Is there a particular reason you want to run just 1 controller. Heck considering what you are aiming for, why only 2000amp? If lithium packs are used, thats where the big chunk of cost come from, more controllers won't add that much relevant cost, why not run 4 Solution1's ?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Can someone explain this?, Does this mean the Zilla 2k drops to 600amps? when?

*Continuous motor current @ 50°C coolant temp & 100% Duty Cycle: over 600 Amps for Z2K, 300 Amps for Z1K *


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Doug,
> I didn't say we had the answer for that, but years ago with _lead acid_ cars we did use some big clunky contactors and believe it or not, never had a problem with them! Of course, using todays batteries with less internal resistance like A123 or the like, alot more current can be drawn from them in a direct connection like this and who knows what contactor might work. BTW, it is not a shorted 300v connection, there is resistance, plus back emf.
> Just a suggestion for the guys that _need _2000 amps
> So much for talking about the old days, just telling the new guys a few tricks from the past....
> ...


You can accomplish a gigantic electronic switch with appropriate IGBTs, 2 or 3KAmps, no problem if money is not an issue.
Horacio


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Can someone explain this?, Does this mean the Zilla 2k drops to 600amps? when?
> 
> *Continuous motor current @ 50°C coolant temp & 100% Duty Cycle: over 600 Amps for Z2K, 300 Amps for Z1K *



it will current limit as soon as semiconductor junction temperature exceed the limits if the circuitry is done correctly..

What they are saying is that you can NOT expect thermal destruction of the controller as long as you do not exceed 50c, while running more or less 600 amps at the controllers maximum rated voltage.

Not sure how the Zilla senses temp, but I would expect a several second lag before you start sensing overtemp. racing terms: you done fried the controller.

I would also think that this event would be 300+ volts @ 2000 amps and about 4 or 5 seconds. The controller must have some inefficiencies dissipated as heat, SO: if you are pushing say 6 megawatt of energy through the controller, you probably have to radiate perhaps a kilowatt of heat.

How long does it take for a quartz heater to get too hot to touch?

Some seriously cold coolants might prolong that 5 seconds if the junctions do not thermal fracture first. 

Way back in the 1970's we could get 100 watts out of a T-05 cased transistor as long as we kept it REALLY cold. Ask an old electronics dinosaur how impressive that WAS ( hint: t-05 were good for about 500 milliwatts).

My $.02; your mileage can and will vary.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Can someone explain this?, Does this mean the Zilla 2k drops to 600amps? when?
> 
> *Continuous motor current @ 50°C coolant temp & 100% Duty Cycle: over 600 Amps for Z2K, 300 Amps for Z1K *


If you're cooling the controller with liquid, you don't have to worry about this. You'll run out of juice or melt your motors before the controller overheats.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you guys for your input.



CroDriver said:


> If you're cooling the controller with liquid, you don't have to worry about this. You'll run out of juice or melt your motors before the controller overheats.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am sorry if I was swinging my dick too much. I only whip it out when someone continues to attack me without any provocation! Yes, I have been a little bold at times, yes I can be an azz sometimes, but I guarantee you all my intentions are all good and will promote EV Racing/EV use in this country. For "Major" to throw jabs at me everytime he feels like it and "thats okay" is not acceptable to me. I will stand up for my rights. And for you to reprimand me publicly after your own company has a sponsorship deal with us is unacceptable, I deserve respect just like the rest of us. You should keep a middle ground and not get involved in disagreements between ECEDRA and NEDRA. Please let's stick to the thread's subject. 



Tesseract said:


> One last thing... please don't pick fights with other members of this community, especially not with members I both like and respect such as Jeff Major. A lot of people show up on this forum with a swinging dick attitude and what it usually gets them is being ignored by the very people most able to help them. Generally not a good thing just from a practical point of view.
> 
> * - an oversimplified but still correct description


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> If you're cooling the controller with liquid, you don't have to worry about this. You'll run out of juice or melt your motors before the controller overheats.


Well... theoretically, no, but given that the Zillas don't seem to fail often in practice you certainly can't argue with that. 

What limits the _continuou_s current rating in most controllers is how much ripple current the input capacitor(s) can withstand. Worst case ripple current occurs at 50% duty cycle, or half the motor current (e.g. - up to 1000A of ripple in a Z2K, 500A in a Z1K or Soliton1).

I don't know this for sure - you'll have to ask Otmar, in other words - but I suspect the real reason he derates the continuous current rating - even with liquid cooling for the semiconductors - is because the electrolytic input capacitors can only support a fraction of the ripple current required. You can abuse them tremendously for short periods of time, but not indefinitely, and always at a cost to their long term life (which is as little as 2000 hours at rated temp and current).


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

In my opinion the world of EV's is upon us! 2011 will be a huge year for production EV cars. But, there is more sales in conversions than new EV sales, this is because of the amounts of ICE already on the road. When you have a new technology come into the mainstream, you will have modifiers "racers", that always want the next step. The "basic" ev conversion controller is locked-up by Curtis, Alltrax. One step up is now EVNetics with the Soliton 1, but the market for a BIG BOY controller, 2000amps or more is wide open. What happens now if no more Zilla 2K's? All new racers are screwed? What happens when Zilla 2K's need repair? Racers will soon be crying for the BIG BOY controller. 

Anyone that starts producing a replacement for the Zilla 2K will see sale rocket! No doubt. Hello EVNetics!!!!


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey...i just taught I will post these links...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Motor-Controlle...308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb16470bc

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Zill...wItemQQhashZitem23091f478cQQitemZ150476900236

I dont really have any info on either of the controllers


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*The ad states:*

"This is a custom-built controller that was built to replace a Zilla 2k controller. As far as I know, this is the only one of it's kind. It features 2400 amps peak power, 500 volts max. It's slightly more powerful than the Zilla 2k, and doesn't have that stupid and confusing "Hairball Interface". You can control the acceleration by simply changing the potentiometer. It also has an idle speed adjustment knob for manual transmissions. Everything else is automatic. It does not have overcurrent protection, but with a 3000+ amp surge rating, it really doesn't need it. If your motor is too small, you can simply install a smaller potentiometer which will limit the % of your throttle.
The high power cables are pre-wired for ease of installation (I bought them all brand new). Although old, the controller is IGBT-based, and runs extremely cool at 240 volts. I'm not sure what the lowest voltage it can handle is, but I think it's probably 100 to 150. Because it is used, I am selling it as-is, but it does work fine and I will give you a DOA warranty with it as well. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the Zilla 2k controller, but at over $3000 less, you really can't go wrong. Buyer pays S&H."

*What do you guys think of the comments? *



efan said:


> hey...i just taught I will post these links...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Motor-Controlle...308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb16470bc
> 
> ...


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *The ad states:*
> 
> "This is a custom-built controller that was built to replace a Zilla 2k controller. As far as I know, this is the only one of it's kind. It features 2400 amps peak power, 500 volts max. It's slightly more powerful than the Zilla 2k, and doesn't have that stupid and confusing "Hairball Interface". You can control the acceleration by simply changing the potentiometer. It also has an idle speed adjustment knob for manual transmissions. Everything else is automatic. It does not have overcurrent protection, but with a 3000+ amp surge rating, it really doesn't need it. If your motor is too small, you can simply install a smaller potentiometer which will limit the % of your throttle.
> The high power cables are pre-wired for ease of installation (I bought them all brand new). Although old, the controller is IGBT-based, and runs extremely cool at 240 volts. I'm not sure what the lowest voltage it can handle is, but I think it's probably 100 to 150. Because it is used, I am selling it as-is, but it does work fine and I will give you a DOA warranty with it as well. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the Zilla 2k controller, but at over $3000 less, you really can't go wrong. Buyer pays S&H."
> ...


One thing that I can add to this comments is..
The company selling this product is a very reputable place. 
I had performed business with them and I had a very positive ending with a product that I received damaged. Their customer service is A+
Also the gently used products they have are checked throughly before putting them up for sale.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you.



mrbigh said:


> One thing that I can add to this comments is..
> The company selling this product is a very reputable place.
> I had performed business with them and I had a very positive ending with a product that I received damaged. Their customer service is A+
> Also the gently used products they have are checked throughly before putting them up for sale.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure, a controller more powerful than a Z2K with 4 gauge wires and no water cooling.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I guess you have a valid point. Something is not on the level. 



JRP3 said:


> Sure, a controller more powerful than a Z2K with 4 gauge wires and no water cooling.


----------



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

seems like somebody snatched the zilla


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

1989 300ZX twin Netgain 11" motors. Brand New Zilla 2K controller  (Thanks!) Bad Azz Lithium Pack. Shortened Rear 4 link suspension, huge rear slick tires. Tubbed rear. Carbon fiber panels. Weight under 3000 lbs. etc.......how does this sound so far......? 



efan said:


> seems like somebody snatched the zilla


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I want to post publicly that we do like EVNetics products and will still race the 3000GT with the Soliton 1. Until EVNetics produces the "Big Sol" we will race the 300ZX with the Zilla 2K. We do not pick one product over another, if Cafe Electric was still producing Zilla's we would offer them a chance to promote also. 

In the very near future, I would love to see all EV Racing parts sold on the Summit Racing Catalog. My partner has contacted Summit, we will see?


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Conversion pics?


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> 1989 300ZX twin Netgain 11" motors. Brand New Zilla 2K controller  (Thanks!) Bad Azz Lithium Pack. Shortened Rear 4 link suspension, huge rear slick tires. Tubbed rear. Carbon fiber panels. Weight under 3000 lbs. etc...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

As the car is being finished we will periodically post pictures on the team's website:

http://www.lithiumaniacsracing.com/

We are currently in the process of installing the rear 4 link suspension, should be completed this week. Motors from Netgain will be delivered Dec/Jan, George promised. I would like to take a moment to say "George at Netgain has always answered my emails and phone calls and has been very helpfull". Batteries will be one of the last purchases, we are in negotiations with sponsors. 

Thank you for asking. 



DavidDymaxion said:


> Conversion pics?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> In the very near future, I would love to see all EV Racing parts sold on the Summit Racing Catalog. My partner has contacted Summit, we will see?


With a market probably smaller than 50 people at this point for high spec EV race parts I wouldn't expect much response from Summit.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Now you guys are going to have me start drinking! Are you serious? Can you use more controllers than two?


Can you? Run controllers in parallel, I mean - 2 controllers to the same motor, for example?


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

valerun said:


> Can you? Run controllers in parallel, I mean - 2 controllers to the same motor, for example?


Not unless the controllers have some way of synchronizing the PWM and/or you add big inductances in series with each controller, no. And even then it's not unlikely you'll end up with at least one blown controller.

Practically speaking it's easier (and probably cheaper too) to use one controller per motor.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Did you guys see this:

"Almost 2,000 individual A123 lithium batteries forming a 15.4 kWh pack that can kick out over 3000 amps at 363 volts. One-of-a-kind custom 4000 amp Zilla controller to send all that power to a single 13 inch DC modified motor and turn the massive amount of electricity into quickly-accelerating forward motion."

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/19/lawless-rocket-shoots-for-the-moon-lands-in-our-hearts/

My question is, where the hell do you get a Zilla 4000 amp controller? Maybe Otmar building special orders? Does anyone know whar brand motor he used?


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Did you guys see this:
> 
> "Almost 2,000 individual A123 lithium batteries forming a 15.4 kWh pack that can kick out over 3000 amps at 363 volts. One-of-a-kind custom 4000 amp Zilla controller to send all that power to a single 13 inch DC modified motor and turn the massive amount of electricity into quickly-accelerating forward motion."
> quote]
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Otmar may not be actively building and selling controllers for the general public, but he's been pretty busy tending the crops he's already planted. He was by Wayland's side for the Zombie's latest round of record runs, tuning and tweaking. I suspect he's working hand in hand with Wayland, Dube, and Lawless, to develop the next gen Zilla - since they're now beginning to push towards the 2K-HV's theoretical limits. I'd bet on a 4K Zilla becoming reality for production eventually.

As for the pack and motor in Rocket, that's old news dude. It's a 13" GE forklift motor built by Dennis Berube. It was originally in Berube's Smokescreen S10 pickup, and ran 11.08 (or something like that) with a borrowed (from his Current Eliminator dragster) battery pack. He has an even meaner 13" GE in the pickup now, but doesn't have the lithium pack to really push it.

The A123 pack is a common combination. Dube runs them in KillaCycle as well. I was planning on an A123 pack with 2992 M1 cells (133p x 22s = 449v/2530a), but the new pouch cells (ala WZ) have my attention now. The A123 pack would have been about 500lbs, but the same is possible for 300lbs with pouch.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It's 2 Zillas turned into 1 big Z4k-OMG. I don't see a hairball connection to the upper one and it appears that some of the green cover is missing between the 2 and that they are also built up on a single base plate. I'm pretty sure that is a custom parallel setup, perhaps with a split field or perhaps without. I would think that only Otmar could pull that off as he is the man who really understands all the little details that keep Zillas alive. 

I would guess you would have to prove yourself fast (and safe) on electrons before Otmar is willing to do that kind of custom work. That adds whole new meaning to...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Some racers have that lucky card in their back pocket "Otmar" I respect his work, but wish he would create a level playing field. The A123 batteries are an option for our team, we have four companies we have been discussing sponsorship with. Will make a desicion soon on our battery packs. Now I remember the motor was a GE. Thanks.



toddshotrods said:


> Otmar may not be actively building and selling controllers for the general public, but he's been pretty busy tending the crops he's already planted. He was by Wayland's side for the Zombie's latest round of record runs, tuning and tweaking. I suspect he's working hand in hand with Wayland, Dube, and Lawless, to develop the next gen Zilla - since they're now beginning to push towards the 2K-HV's theoretical limits. I'd bet on a 4K Zilla becoming reality for production eventually.
> 
> As for the pack and motor in Rocket, that's old news dude. It's a 13" GE forklift motor built by Dennis Berube. It was originally in Berube's Smokescreen S10 pickup, and ran 11.08 (or something like that) with a borrowed (from his Current Eliminator dragster) battery pack. He has an even meaner 13" GE in the pickup now, but doesn't have the lithium pack to really push it.
> 
> The A123 pack is a common combination. Dube runs them in KillaCycle as well. I was planning on an A123 pack with 2992 M1 cells (133p x 22s = 449v/2530a), but the new pouch cells (ala WZ) have my attention now. The A123 pack would have been about 500lbs, but the same is possible for 300lbs with pouch.


----------



## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

EVfun said:


> It's 2 Zillas turned into 1 big Z4k-OMG. I don't see a hairball connection to the upper one and it appears that some of the green cover is missing between the....................


*psss..... I'm missing a big chunk of the picture. Batteries look nice in red thou*


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I'd bet on a 4K Zilla becoming reality for production eventually.


If by production you mean 1 or 2 then sure, maybe


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If by production you mean 1 or 2 then sure, maybe


I meant a _little_ more than that, maybe 3-4 per year, a few years from now. The racers are not going to start going slower, which means they're going to need bigger controllers. As the fastest guys go even faster, and top lithium battery technologies become more of a reality, more people will want to do it. Not many but a few each year. I'd guess it might hit an all-time high of 12 whole units per year for units like Big Sol and Z4K. 

Seriously though, there will eventually be a market for them. It could actually be a healthy one. There are some potential applications, outside what the average EVer or EV racer thinks of, that would create a lot of sales.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I meant a _little_ more than that, maybe 3-4 per year, a few years from now. ....


Yeah, that's similar to what we came up with ourselves. Unfortunately, we estimate that we would need to sell at least 5 Big Sols to break even, assuming we did not attempt to build a dyno that could test it to it's full potential (ie - we test it to the same level as a Soliton1 and deem it "good" if it passes). I have no idea what a 1MW+ capable dyno costs off the top of my head, but I'm guessing it ain't cheap, so, even more sales needed to break even!

I was willing to develop the Big Sol "on spec" (ie - just on possible interest, rather than actual, committed, deposit-paying buyers) until Otmar cobbled together a Z4K for Shawn Lawless. Now that he has, though, I have to wonder how smart it would be for us to get into the EV equivalent of a nuclear arms race with Otmar himself. My personal feeling is that it wouldn't be smart at all - the loyalty towards Otmar is so high among racers that even if the Big Sol beats the Z4K like a rented mule I still might not sell a single one of them.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...The controller issue is a problem, I will be looking and contacting anyone with controller building experience for our team. WE NEED 2000 AMPS OFF THE LINE, NO LESS FOR THE 300ZX. There are many controller builders out there that might be intertested in making some money!


No, there aren't "many" controller builders out there. In fact, I'd be really surprised if there was anyone else in North America who is both capable of designing a solid product at this power level and is also unemployed or otherwise available for contract work.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...I have to wonder how smart it would be for us to get into the EV equivalent of a nuclear arms race with Otmar...


There's a better way to go about it, and still a huge opportunity for you guys. Otmar's NEDRA tribe isn't even a microscopic spec on the racing scene. I mean no disrespect to them by that, I am speaking purely in terms of the amount of teams and individuals racing around the globe.

We can talk more about all this privately though, because these subjects are always on the verge of turning into senseless, childish, arguments in public.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I have no idea what a 1MW+ capable dyno costs off the top of my head, but I'm guessing it ain't cheap, so, even more sales needed to break even!


That's what the racing guys are for, they test the product for you. Couldn't you rent dyno time if you wanted?l Besides, you don't think Otmar put the Z2K2 through dyno testing do you?


> My personal feeling is that it wouldn't be smart at all - the loyalty towards Otmar is so high among racers that even if the Big Sol beats the Z4K like a rented mule I still might not sell a single one of them.


I'm not sure any amount of loyalty takes precedent over winning races


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's what the racing guys are for, they test the product for you. Couldn't you rent dyno time if you wanted?l Besides, you don't think Otmar put the Z2K2 through dyno testing do you?
> I'm not sure any amount of loyalty takes precedent over winning races


I would have to agree, they appear loyal because they don't have a choice. How many 2000A controllers are there? You just need to make a master/slave parallel relationship between a couple of Soliton1's without blowing shit up. (ya I'm sure it's not possible, or easier to design single larger controller etc.)


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's what the racing guys are for, they test the product for you...


I meant to comment on that too. There are 1320ft dynos all over the country, and many of them are good for a least 8000hp! 





JRP3 said:


> ...I'm not sure any amount of loyalty takes precedent over winning races


That's part of the problem - they're not racing. Racing means competing directly against other competitors. They're sort of experimenting, without the pressure of having to find the extra performance ASAP, that is inherent to racing. The way they're going about it, they can remain loyal and wait patiently for Otmar, because there's no pressure.

In spite of all the talk, when WZ and Smokescreen were close in times there was no urgency to get them lined up together and settle it. Same goes right now for KillaCycle and Rocket. The idea was tossed around, but the season passed away, along with the interest in it. On top of that, they don't build vehicles to compete with each other. Everyone picks a new class and builds a different vehicle, that doesn't relate on a head-to-head basis with anyone else's. Again - no pressure, no urgency, and no reason to not be loyal.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Couldn't you rent dyno time if you wanted?l


The dyno's you can rent are - AFAIK - exclusively for testing actual vehicles, not a bare motor and controller. Just going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing a vehicle with a 1MW+ drivetrain might cost just a tad more than an engine dyno. 

Either way we'd still need a big-ass battery pack to operate the Big Sol over its entire power envelope.... How much do you suppose a battery pack capable of delivering 1MW+ for 10-20 seconds would set us back? Probably $25K at a minimum, is my guess. See how quickly the costs add up?




rwaudio said:


> I would have to agree, they appear loyal because they don't have a choice. How many 2000A controllers are there? You just need to make a master/slave parallel relationship between a couple of Soliton1's without blowing shit up. (ya I'm sure it's not possible, or easier to design single larger controller etc.)


If you insert "a motor's worth of inductance" in series with the output of each you can tie as many controllers together as you want. Otherwise you have to make sure all of the switches turn on and off at the same time - that's what Otmar did to make the Z2K from the Z1K, etc... just add more switches in parallel and make sure they operate in sync (that, btw, is more of a challenge than it might appear).

The essential problem of there not being enough of a market to justify our spending $50-$100K to develop the Big Sol persists. I've noticed that it's very easy to spend someone else's money, especially around here...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...The essential problem of there not being enough of a market to justify our spending $50-$100K...persists...
> 
> ...I've noticed that it's very easy to spend someone else's money, especially around here...


It is only money, in the end, Tesseract. You can't take it with you. 

If there's any doubt, I'm kidding. You know I'm squarely in your corner, and seeing things how you see them. I think you made a wise decision putting your chips on Jr. Slow and steady is the course. Keep count of the pennies, and let this finicky, feeble, market define and reveal itself. The main people who seem to be in a hurry are the ones who are cheering from the stands. Get some popcorn and hot chocolate boys, it's gonna be a long ride... 

For the few racers clamoring for a Big Sol - go let the smoke out of a couple Zillas to paint the picture of what you really need.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Actually I'd rather see IF someone could smoke a SOL, then see what Tess comes up with


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, that's similar to what we came up with ourselves. Unfortunately, we estimate that we would need to sell at least 5 Big Sols to break even...


To contradict myself on potential volume, and at the risk of spending other people's money, you might not be that far off from hitting that mark already. I get the impression that Ron might buy one or two, CroDriver the same, and Todd, someday, might get one. Maybe you could convince Jack he needs one for his Escalade. There you go, first run sold out!  Or not


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, that's similar to what we came up with ourselves. Unfortunately, we estimate that we would need to sell at least 5 Big Sols to break even, assuming we did not attempt to build a dyno that could test it to it's full potential (ie - we test it to the same level as a Soliton1 and deem it "good" if it passes). I have no idea what a 1MW+ capable dyno costs off the top of my head, but I'm guessing it ain't cheap, so, even more sales needed to break even!
> 
> I was willing to develop the Big Sol "on spec" (ie - just on possible interest, rather than actual, committed, deposit-paying buyers) until Otmar cobbled together a Z4K for Shawn Lawless. Now that he has, though, I have to wonder how smart it would be for us to get into the EV equivalent of a nuclear arms race with Otmar himself. My personal feeling is that it wouldn't be smart at all - the loyalty towards Otmar is so high among racers that even if the Big Sol beats the Z4K like a rented mule I still might not sell a single one of them.


I think there is only a couple of the names that have a loyalty to Otmar. It used to be Damon at DCPower that had this racer loyalty, that I think is mostly lack of choice. Loyalty doesn't get a car down the 1320 faster.

One option to a big Sol is some type of optional software and cabling that allows 2 or more Soliton 1's to be cabled together and work in sync. It looks like what was done with the Z4k and I know that a few DCP-1200 controllers were set up master and slave as well. I'm sure that is not as simple as it looks, but perhaps a bit cheaper that tooling up for a whole new controller. 

Another option takes advantage of the way the field of most series motors is connected. They are very often 2 sets of 2 coils in series, with the pairs wired in parallel. If you split those fields you could run one controller through each pair and both through the armature and back to the controllers. This was even done a couple times with old Curtis 1221b controllers but I don't know how successfully it was (don't know how many 1221b controllers where blown trying.)


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

First Happy Thanksgiving to all. Now that you guys touched base on production of models and costs, let me add my 2 cents. Being in a very competitive market myself, I know how hard it is to balance your profits in regards to production and costs. I spend thousands on advertising, but it ALWAYS pays off in the end. 

In the EV controller market what is needed is a company willing to supply the wildest/largest/strongest controllers money can buy. This is the perfect time to build the MASTER of all controllers, 2000, 3000, or even 4000 amp controllers will be needed in the very near future. The year 2011 will produce the most production EV's ever, and with more knowledge of EV's hitting the mainstream comes more "racers" getting involved in EV racing. I am dumping a boatload of money to promote EV racing, I know it will attract new racers. My Team alone would buy 5 controllers larger than 2000 amps if they were available today. The cost may be $5000 to $8000 a controller so what? Racing teams will pay the money to win! I see huge amounts of money from the big boys "Fortune 500 Companies" willing to sponsor EV racing teams in the very near future. The world is ours and the time is NOW! 



Tesseract said:


> Yeah, that's similar to what we came up with ourselves. Unfortunately, we estimate that we would need to sell at least 5 Big Sols to break even, assuming we did not attempt to build a dyno that could test it to it's full potential (ie - we test it to the same level as a Soliton1 and deem it "good" if it passes). I have no idea what a 1MW+ capable dyno costs off the top of my head, but I'm guessing it ain't cheap, so, even more sales needed to break even!
> 
> I was willing to develop the Big Sol "on spec" (ie - just on possible interest, rather than actual, committed, deposit-paying buyers) until Otmar cobbled together a Z4K for Shawn Lawless. Now that he has, though, I have to wonder how smart it would be for us to get into the EV equivalent of a nuclear arms race with Otmar himself. My personal feeling is that it wouldn't be smart at all - the loyalty towards Otmar is so high among racers that even if the Big Sol beats the Z4K like a rented mule I still might not sell a single one of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I want to show an example on my view of the market. Almost every company producing high-performance racing products for ICE has grown, Holley, Accel, MSD, Flowmaster, Hedman, Crane Cams, etc.....the list goes on. These companies build products for ICE racing only and have enormous amounts of sales. The EV Racing market is in its early stages, but the company with the product is the company who grows like wildfire! 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> First Happy Thanksgiving to all. Now that you guys touched base on production of models and costs, let me add my 2 cents. Being in a very competitive market myself, I know how hard it is to balance your profits in regards to production and costs. I spend thousands on advertising, but it ALWAYS pays off in the end.
> 
> In the EV controller market what is needed is a company willing to supply the wildest/largest/strongest controllers money can buy. This is the perfect time to build the MASTER of all controllers, 2000, 3000, or even 4000 amp controllers will be needed in the very near future. The year 2011 will produce the most production EV's ever, and with more knowledge of EV's hitting the mainstream comes more "racers" getting involved in EV racing. I am dumping a boatload of money to promote EV racing, I know it will attract new racers. My Team alone would buy 5 controllers larger than 2000 amps if they were available today. The cost may be $5000 to $8000 a controller so what? Racing teams will pay the money to win! I see huge amounts of money from the big boys "Fortune 500 Companies" willing to sponsor EV racing teams in the very near future. The world is ours and the time is NOW!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I just want to touch on this subect one more time. Hoping the controller builders will understand.

If it took your company a $100,000 investment for new machinery or ????, you would only have to sell 20 controllers at $5000.00 each to pay for your investment. Any sales after that is all solid profits. You don't think you can sell 20 controllers for the EV racers? Shoot I know over 20 people now looking to buy any controller over 2000amps. The market is there. If its a money problem, I am sure ANY bank would invest in EV racing parts production looking at where the country is heading with EV use.

Its just my 2 cents, but I'll bet my boots on it!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...what is needed is a company willing to supply the wildest/largest/strongest controllers money can buy. This is the perfect time to build the MASTER of all controllers, 2000, 3000, or even 4000 amp controllers will be needed in the very near future. The year 2011 will produce the most production EV's ever, and with more knowledge of EV's hitting the mainstream comes more "racers" getting involved in EV racing...


Sorry but the numbers don't support your overly enthusiastic hype dude.

There currently aren't enough racers out there to buy the Zilla 2K-HVs that currently exist. Even if Otmar has finally sold his inventory, all you have to do is watch Ebay to find one. Out of all the Z2Ks that are out there, five of them have achieved the type of jaw-dropping, record setting, performance that requires a true "monster" controller. Those five have been/are being used by three racers (Berube-2, Wayland-1, Lawless-2). The rest haven't even reached the potential of the Zilla, so I don't see them banging on the doors of any company in desperate need of more power.

As for all these supposed racers out there who will need it (including myself), there are still only a handful of hopefuls. Figure out the average for how many racers, car enthusiasts, or EVers, actually realize their dream and you'll have a better idea how many can be sold over the next five years.

As for production EVs hitting the streets, stirring dreams, and creating this vast field of new racing blood - you can't really believe that can you? Nissan Leafs, Chevy Volts, and Honda Fit EVs, going down the road don't generally lead to people wanting to to spend $50-100K to go racing. If that were true Tesla would have spawned an electric Top FUel team by now.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I just want to touch on this subect one more time...
> 
> ...Shoot I know over 20 people now looking to buy any controller over 2000amps. The market is there...
> 
> ...


Why, then, don't you bet your own money and company. Go to the bank, leverage your business, and come up with the $100K. Simply tell some company you will pay them $100K, today, for 12 controllers. You're sure it's a good investment, you're sure the banks will agree, you're sure it will at least break even - there's no way to lose.

Not trying to be a smart azz. You're asking them to put their necks on the line for something you believe. Put yours on it, and show them. You've said you're spending so much to promote EV racing - this is the opportunity to do it directly. At the worst, you'll break even and EV racing will benefit.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually I was thinking of something similar. A down payment on the controllers you want with whatever legal terms are necessary to assure no one gets ripped off.
Or just get a really big one of these


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Actually I was thinking of something similar. A down payment on the controllers you want with whatever legal terms are necessary to assure no one gets ripped off...


Bad idea with American business law. No matter how you write it, there are too many ways to wiggle out of a contract like that, and leave the development company holding the bill. Additionally, it usually costs more to pursue the matter legally than it's worth.

I stopped taking deposits on custom stuff that I wasn't willing to eat years ago, after getting burned too many times - even by so-called friends. I actually respect that fact that EVNetics carries the burden on their own, for products they believe in, rather than doing the deposit/investment scheme. I think there's a popular EV manufacturer that works on that model. Some of the biggest hot rod buiders do it too, and a couple have gone out of business/ran into serious legal issues doing it.





JRP3 said:


> ...Or just get a really big one of these ...


I can make as many of those as they need right away. I'll make em pretty too!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry dude, your opinion is a bit blurred by the smog from ICE's. The interest with new EV's will create new EV racers, have you seen the competition for the Tesla's coming out in 2011? And I am not talking about average EV's like the Volt. I can give you a list of very fast production ev's hitting the market if you need?

In regards to the Zilla 2k's, I know people waiting for them as we speak, last I heard they were selling one per week and there are only six left available. What happens after that?

And you say I am "sticking them out", I will put my money where my mouth is, if EVNetics need someone to support them with cash for exspansion then they should give me a call with an offer. If any "experienced" controller builder is out of work and wants to move to CT and start building Hi-Performance controllers I will support with the Capital.

I am no bullshitter, I will put my money where my mouth is. 



toddshotrods said:


> Sorry but the numbers don't support your overly enthusiastic hype dude.
> 
> There currently aren't enough racers out there to buy the Zilla 2K-HVs that currently exist. Even if Otmar has finally sold his inventory, all you have to do is watch Ebay to find one. Out of all the Z2Ks that are out there, five of them have achieved the type of jaw-dropping, record setting, performance that requires a true "monster" controller. Those five have been/are being used by three racers (Berube-2, Wayland-1, Lawless-2). The rest haven't even reached the potential of the Zilla, so I don't see them banging on the doors of any company in desperate need of more power.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

All I can say is, wow! 

This is been a very entertaining way to pass time, until turkey time!  I guess it's partly by desire, to be different, but a lot of the EV word lives in a bizarre parallel universe, where two-plus-two does not necessarily add up to four! 

JRP3, I'm really glad you led me to this particular site, where I could meet the EVNetics crew. Seriously thinking about moving to Florida...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...if EVNetics need someone to support them with cash for exspansion then they should give me a call with an offer...
> 
> ...I am no bullshitter, I will put my money where my mouth is.


That's backwards. You go get the money, and purchase 12 controllers - built to order. You're the one demanding the product - do it with cold, hard, cash. Not if you build it, I'll buy it. Not if you're in the process and need help, I'll bring some money.

Here is the money - cash! Build (12) 2000+amp racing controllers for me please! I'll pay the entire cost so that you don't lose a dime, because I know this is a good investment.

There's an upside, and a potential ROI, for you and the manufacturer - can you see it?





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...If any "experienced" controller builder is out of work and wants to move to CT and start building Hi-Performance controllers I will support with the Capital...


Given the history of that type of venture in EV controller manufacturing, I don't think you'll get much interest in this industry for that.


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

If you want "Big" controllers, you could take an "Open ReVolt" kit, and build your own power stage for it. I know at least one person has done so using IGBTs rather than the MOSFETs it was originally specced with, and with minor modifications (for instance, higher-current hall-effect power monitors) and a tiny amount of software tweaking (Raise the maximum current value) you can have a fully-working and well-featured controller that can provide as many amps as you would ever need. 2,000A, 10,000A, 100,000A, all are possible.

I know that some on here are wary of the Open ReVolt kit, as they don't see near so many of them out there at the moment, and see that the control software is missing some functionality. But the entire thing is open source, so if the software is missing some functionality you need, it can quite easily be added.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> If you want "Big" controllers, you could take an "Open ReVolt" kit, and build your own power stage for it. I know at least one person has done so using IGBTs rather than the MOSFETs it was originally specced with, and with minor modifications (for instance, higher-current hall-effect power monitors) and a tiny amount of software tweaking (Raise the maximum current value) you can have a fully-working and well-featured controller that can provide as many amps as you would ever need. 2,000A, 10,000A, 100,000A, all are possible.
> 
> I know that some on here are wary of the Open ReVolt kit, as they don't see near so many of them out there at the moment, and see that the control software is missing some functionality. But the entire thing is open source, so if the software is missing some functionality you need, it can quite easily be added.


It would be interesting to see someone do this for a drag race vehicle; one that really only needs to do one thing well - get 1320ft, from A-to-B, as fast as possible. I want all the bells and whistles, and want a more sophisticated package for autocrossing, etc, but it doesn't seem like a strictly straight-line racer needs as much.

Nice idea, from a first glance.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The interest with new EV's will create new EV racers, have you seen the competition for the Tesla's coming out in 2011? And I am not talking about average EV's like the Volt. I can give you a list of very fast production ev's hitting the market if you need?


Yes, I need. Not vaporware, not hybrids, not kit cars, not 2 car production runs.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, I need. Not vaporware, not hybrids, not kit cars, not 2 car production runs.


That's what most of it amounts to, but there are a few with real production intent"

I can't remember them right now, but the Well with no scale to compare it to I was wondering if your motor sat in the hole in the middle of it, or if it was like a Dyson fan, or if it was some kind of toy, of the adult variety!"]Benz SLS AMG E-cell seems to be closest to actual production. How's that bank account?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd, 

I am trying not to be rude, but I have the money. I have spent the last twenty years building my business. Funds are not a problem, I am more than willing to put down a deposit on a guaranteed order for large controllers. My partner also sells EV parts, we would sell the product to the public also. 



toddshotrods said:


> That's backwards. You go get the money, and purchase 12 controllers - built to order. You're the one demanding the product - do it with cold, hard, cash. Not if you build it, I'll buy it. Not if you're in the process and need help, I'll bring some money.
> 
> Here is the money - cash! Build (12) 2000+amp racing controllers for me please! I'll pay the entire cost so that you don't lose a dime, because I know this is a good investment.
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, I will post them all for you later tonight. Factory EV "hotrods". 



JRP3 said:


> Yes, I need. Not vaporware, not hybrids, not kit cars, not 2 car production runs.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Please tell me more, I am a experienced auto technician, not a electrical engineer, so please take it easy on me. If they come with full instructions on how to build one of these kits, I am more than willing. I can wire and any car or bike, but not sure what goes into a controller?



Anaerin said:


> If you want "Big" controllers, you could take an "Open ReVolt" kit, and build your own power stage for it. I know at least one person has done so using IGBTs rather than the MOSFETs it was originally specced with, and with minor modifications (for instance, higher-current hall-effect power monitors) and a tiny amount of software tweaking (Raise the maximum current value) you can have a fully-working and well-featured controller that can provide as many amps as you would ever need. 2,000A, 10,000A, 100,000A, all are possible.
> 
> I know that some on here are wary of the Open ReVolt kit, as they don't see near so many of them out there at the moment, and see that the control software is missing some functionality. But the entire thing is open source, so if the software is missing some functionality you need, it can quite easily be added.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Keep count of the pennies, and let this finicky, feeble, market define and reveal itself. The main people who seem to be in a hurry are the ones who are cheering from the stands....


Well said, Todd, well said. We've been down this road before. Everyone said that we needed to concentrate on making a replacement for the Zilla instead of a "better Curtis" so that's what we did, even though it is now abundantly clear to me that the Curtis is by far the most popular controller out there. I'm not saying that the decision to make the 1000A Soliton1 first was wrong, just that the 1kA+ level is NOT where the volume is. 

At the risk of pointing out the painfully obvious here, we can't develop new products if we are broke!




piotrsko said:


> Actually I'd rather see IF someone could smoke a SOL, then see what Tess comes up with


A much higher power controller isn't that difficult to *design*, it's just really expensive to *build*, and even more expensive to *test*! You can have an almost arbitrarily high power level IF you are willing to pay for it and much like Todd pointed out above, there are plenty of people that SAY they want it. Go back and look at that "Do you really need 1000A?" thread that I started so long ago and see how many people went on to buy a 1kA controller... you, piotrsko, are one of the very few that did!



JRP3 said:


> ...I get the impression that Ron might buy one or two, CroDriver the same, and Todd, someday, might get one. Maybe you could convince Jack he needs one for his Escalade. There you go, first run sold out!  Or not


You didn't quote the part where I said IF I DON'T TEST IT we might break even after selling 5... and that would be if I sold them for $10K a pop. Expecting 1MW+ for less than $10K, btw, is hopelessly naive. You think you'll ever see a Bugatti Veyron down at the local used car lot with "BARGAIN!" splashed across it's windshield?

*ok... pause... seems the fur is still flying here...*


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> I am trying not to be rude...


Nor am I. I'm simply trying to get you to reverse your approach. You were telling other companies it's safe to invest their money. I simply suggested backing that promise with your own money, and you responded again by saying if they were willing to start you would back them up. It's obvious no one is willing to start funneling money into a mega controller right now, so take the initiative and get the ball rolling.

Arrange the finances, with a deposit to be paid up front and the balance in escrow until the product is delivered. You're dealing with a skeptical cottage industry. It's loaded with potential, but somewhat risk averse. Take away the risk, completely.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...My partner also sells EV parts, we would sell the product to the public also.


Do it as a commissioned business product.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> One option to a big Sol is some type of optional software and cabling that allows 2 or more Soliton 1's to be cabled together and work in sync.
> ...
> Another option takes advantage of the way the field of most series motors is connected. They are very often 2 sets of 2 coils in series, with the pairs wired in parallel. If you split those fields you could run one controller through each pair and both through the armature and back to the controllers....


Yes, both can be done, although there is no provision for synchronizing the switching of two or more controllers without kludging the control board (same as what Otmar did to make the Z4K). That said, they can still be combined by simply inserting enough inductance in series with each one's output or, as you suggest, driving the split field in a single motor with each. 

The problem, though, is that two 1000A controllers are not necessarily equivalent to one 2000A controller, and I constantly get told that to compete with the Z2K I need to make at least a 2kA controller too. Fine - not really arguing with that, I'm just not on board with deploying that much capital for what I perceive to be zero return, and more likely quite a substantial loss. Whatever "advertising value" is derived from making the baddest controller on the planet is pointless if we are bankrupt, n'est-ce pas?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...Whatever "advertising value" is derived from making the baddest controller on the planet is pointless if we are bankrupt, n'est-ce pas?


Traditional math doesn't apply here.


----------



## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...if we are bankrupt, n'est-ce pas?


Does that mean you would have a lot of spare time to develop an AC controller?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Whatever "advertising value" is derived from making the baddest controller on the planet is pointless if we are bankrupt, n'est-ce pas?


I completely agree. Your crew has to figure out the cost vs. the value of racing marketing. I hope you do it in a way that keeps Soliton available, even if it's not what puts a big grin on my face.

I do think some racing presence would help sales of all controllers. I have 2 Zilla controllers (Z1k-LV, Z1k-HV) and I don't race.  There are plenty of classes with old, slow, records where a Soliton 1 in a small car could be a record setter and show off respectable street car performance.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Guys, guys, guys, everyone take a breath. I am willing to put up the capital and support to sell the product. All I need is a good electrical engineer.

I understand if EVNetics doesn't think it is the right time, or a waste of money. I still love my Soliton 1 and will buy and sell more. But, feel the need for huge controllers is a must for EV racing to continue.


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

What about the Netgain Warp controllers? They are supposed to run up to 360 volts and 1400 amps. If my math is right that brings the total up to 504kw as opposed to 696kw for the 348 volt 2000 amp Zilla Z2k EHV.
If one where to use two Warp Drive controllers on multiple motors you would easily overpower the one Zilla, wouldn't you?

Imagine, a 4 motor setup with two Warp controllers running at just over 1 megawatt!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't understand? I know many people that have bought the Soliton1 (including myself) and many more that will buy it, how are you "broke"?



Tesseract said:


> Well said, Todd, well said. We've been down this road before. Everyone said that we needed to concentrate on making a replacement for the Zilla instead of a "better Curtis" so that's what we did, even though it is now abundantly clear to me that the Curtis is by far the most popular controller out there. I'm not saying that the decision to make the 1000A Soliton1 first was wrong, just that the 1kA+ level is NOT where the volume is.
> 
> At the risk of pointing out the painfully obvious here, we can't develop new products if we are broke!
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I spoke with George at Netgain, they are not available at the moment. Maybe early 2011. 



Jason Lattimer said:


> What about the Netgain Warp controllers? They are supposed to run up to 360 volts and 1400 amps. If my math is right that brings the total up to 504kw as opposed to 696kw for the 348 volt 2000 amp Zilla Z2k EHV.
> If one where to use two Warp Drive controllers on multiple motors you would easily overpower the one Zilla, wouldn't you?
> 
> Imagine, a 4 motor setup with two Warp controllers running at just over 1 megawatt!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I understand your reasoning. I am willing to "invest" in any controller company that needs capital to start building "Mega" controllers. They all know my number. I can even supply the building here in CT. 



toddshotrods said:


> Nor am I. I'm simply trying to get you to reverse your approach. You were telling other companies it's safe to invest their money. I simply suggested backing that promise with your own money, and you responded again by saying if they were willing to start you would back them up. It's obvious no one is willing to start funneling money into a mega controller right now, so take the initiative and get the ball rolling.
> 
> Arrange the finances, with a deposit to be paid up front and the balance in escrow until the product is delivered. You're dealing with a skeptical cottage industry. It's loaded with potential, but somewhat risk averse. Take away the risk, completely.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I don't understand? I know many people that have bought the Soliton1 (including myself) and many more that will buy it, how are you "broke"?


You must work in sales everyday, because you hear/read facts for how they can be presented to support your case later. The man never said he's currently broke. "Broke" was stated as a likely result of following a certain course of action, *to make a point*; which was obviously missed.

I'm kind of amused that you think the numbers of controllers that sell in this market can be referred to as "many". Tell a manufacturer in the general performance aftermarket parts industry that if they spend $50-100K developing a new product you can guarantee they'll sell 25 in the first year, and see if they'll bite. 25 Mega-watt controllers in a year would be a boom.

You're busting at the seams with enthusiasm - that's great. The problem is you're letting it cloud your judgement. Business requires good math. Do the numbers on what it would take to successfully market the product, compared to how many can reasonably be sold, then compare it to other options you can pursue in the same time, for the same money. In this case, you can only come to the conclusion that it's not the most sound investment you can make.

Another fact that is often overlooked is the batteries. If there were 25 people waiting in line for a megawatt controller, where are they going to get the megawatt battery pack? The cells you need are not available for public consumption. If you really want to advance EV racing find a way to make it easy for the average Joe to obtain and manage a mega-watt of battery power.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have found the info, very interesting. 

http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/HelpFileMcontrollers.html



Anaerin said:


> If you want "Big" controllers, you could take an "Open ReVolt" kit, and build your own power stage for it. I know at least one person has done so using IGBTs rather than the MOSFETs it was originally specced with, and with minor modifications (for instance, higher-current hall-effect power monitors) and a tiny amount of software tweaking (Raise the maximum current value) you can have a fully-working and well-featured controller that can provide as many amps as you would ever need. 2,000A, 10,000A, 100,000A, all are possible.
> 
> I know that some on here are wary of the Open ReVolt kit, as they don't see near so many of them out there at the moment, and see that the control software is missing some functionality. But the entire thing is open source, so if the software is missing some functionality you need, it can quite easily be added.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I misunderstood his statement, many family at my house today, not easy to concentrate. We still disagree on the sales, I believe the market is wide open and growing rapidly. I don't understand why you now state the "cells" are not available? You can buy cells from A123, Tesla, China, South Korea, etc....there are plenty of cells available to power any controller available.



toddshotrods said:


> You must work in sales everyday, because you hear/read facts for how they can be presented to support your case later. The man never said he's currently broke. "Broke" was stated as a likely result of following a certain course of action, *to make a point*; which was obviously missed.
> 
> I'm kind of amused that you think the numbers of controllers that sell in this market can be referred to as "many". Tell a manufacturer in the general performance aftermarket parts industry that if they spend $50-100K developing a new product you can guarantee they'll sell 25 in the first year, and see if they'll bite. 25 Mega-watt controllers in a year would be a boom.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...We still disagree on the sales, I believe the market is wide open and growing rapidly...


Where are you getting your numbers? Just reading between the lines of what transpires on this forum paints a completely different picture. Netgains is not yet selling it's purposed Zilla replacement, and there are only occasional probes into why. In other words, there aren't even a lot of people banging on their doors begging for them. When EVC went down, and Otmar split, he had ten or so Z2K-HVs ready to sell. That was months ago. Wonder if he sold them all yet? EVNetics is currently the only manufacturer with a racing class (virtually indestructable) controller on the shelf, and they seem to be keeping up with orders, despite having no viable competition at the moment. Just from what Tesseract has posted openly on this forum, they've had an uptick in orders recently, but it doesn't seem to be overwhelming them. Junior is still coming down the shoot.

I've been in business my entire adult life, and one thing I have learned is you can't interpret interest as guaranteed sales. Depending on the market, it's ususally a small percentage of interest that translates into sales. So for every ten people that say they want one here, you _might_ get a sale. It's all about dreams here. The dream of all cars being electric in ten years. The dream of living in a pollution free world. The dream of what I can do to make it happen. The dream of a big pretty mega-watt controller under the hood of my Geo Metro - ahhhhh!


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I don't understand? I know many people that have bought the Soliton1 (including myself) and many more that will buy it, how are you "broke"?


All I meant is that one bad product development decision could cost us so much that we wouldn't be ale to design anything else afterward.

EDIT: Todd already explained it perfectly....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...You can buy cells from A123, Tesla, China, South Korea, etc....there are plenty of cells available to power any controller available.


I forgot this part. Again, I don't know where you're getting your info but A123 doesn't sell to individuals. If you buy A123 cells on the open market you're probably buying cheap knockoffs. Some have been tested and they're not even close. They look the part, but can't do the dance. Pretty sure the same goes for all the ultra high-power cells. Headways are available but you're going to have twice the weight for the same power as A123 M1s, which are even "heavy" compared to the pouch cells.

Cro has the money and seems to have some connections, but the last I saw him post he couldn't even get A123 to talk to him about pouch cells. He has some that he scored (gray market I guess) but can't get more to build the pack.

Wayland, Dube, and Lawless are flying because they have sponsorship from the battery manufacturers. As badazz as the Zombie is it still took him a while to score that deal.

You can purchase DeWalt 36v battery packs and disassemble them to get real A123 cells. There's ten per pack, so stock up. Then, practice your spot welding. Two welds per cell, and they have to be perfect.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I now understand your statement, I just disagree with the predicted future of sales. I see a uptick in sales coming. The East Coast is virgin to EV racing, that will all change soon. I will stand by my opinion, I hope the best for your company. You guys have built an awesome 1000 amp controller and i will put it to the test in our 3000GT. I know if/when you guys design a "Bigger" controller it will be an work of art.

I have been in contact with "certain" EV racers in Florida that would love for your company to design a "BigSol", you probably know who i am posting about. I know many more will be coming. If Otmar doesn't start producing again, the market is yours.



Tesseract said:


> All I meant is that one bad product development decision could cost us so much that we wouldn't be ale to design anything else afterward.
> 
> EDIT: Todd already explained it perfectly....


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The reason the Netgain controller is not selling is a technical issue, not a sale issue. That is why the website states they will be on sale again in 2011.



toddshotrods said:


> Netgains is not yet selling it's purposed Zilla replacement, and there are only occasional probes into why. In other words, there aren't even a lot of people banging on their doors begging for them.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You can buy A123 cells if you are willing to pay their enormous price. Tesla will also sell you one of their battery packs. There is many options out their if you have the right connections. There are companies in business now welding together your cells if needed. You seem like a Pessimist? Do you always fight the solution and not work around your problems? Yes, I have found this industry to be frustrating at times, but with the right amount of contacts and calls you can get what you need. Like the problem with the lack of a 2000 to 3000 amp controller, I can guarantee you I will find a producer whether private or production. 



toddshotrods said:


> I forgot this part. Again, I don't know where you're getting your info but A123 doesn't sell to individuals. If you buy A123 cells on the open market you're probably buying cheap knockoffs. Some have been tested and they're not even close. They look the part, but can't do the dance. Pretty sure the same goes for all the ultra high-power cells. Headways are available but you're going to have twice the weight for the same power as A123 M1s, which are even "heavy" compared to the pouch cells.
> 
> Cro has the money and seems to have some connections, but the last I saw him post he couldn't even get A123 to talk to him about pouch cells. He has some that he scored (gray market I guess) but can't get more to build the pack.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If you guys are wondering why I am going back and forth with Lithiumaniacs on this - it's for the good of the forum and the hobby/industry. These same questions have been floating around since I've been here, and I just took this opportunity to dig into the "why" behind the delays. I have been on both sides of the issue, originally talking to Tesseract about building a one-off for me before Soliton1 was even out of the womb. I wanted a one-off 2K SepEx Soliton, and he was even willing to discuss the possibilites of that, but as I started to realize what was involved I changed my plans to fit what they already have planned (series). Most recently, I have resolved to time my racing needs to align with the most reasonable development schedule for meag-watt controllers.

Why? To do my part in helping them build a healthy company. I'd rather see them thrive with Jr and 1, than take a dumb risk and lose everything so we can drool over Big Sol prematurely. The funniest thing though is there wasn't really even a need until this past summer, when WZ and Rocket started flying. Cro has a Zilla, the same controller that made them fly, and I could have purchased one directly from Otmar. we all want Big Sol to be produced because it's big, pretty, and powerful, but until Otmar Frankensteined two Zillas for Rocket there wasn't even a real need. Wayland did all his damage with the same single Zilla he's been torturing for years.

Come to think of it, I'm not really clear on why Rocket needed 4K? He weighs less than half of what WZ does and has one big sticky tire. Is he really putting 3000amps on the track? Does it really need a Z4K? I'm not saying it isn't or doesn't, I'm asking...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have enjoyed our conversations regarding controllers and companies building them. I too would love to see EVNetics grow and become a main supplier of EV controllers. My main goal and true intentions is winning races and setting records. I have already spent much capital to organize ECEDRA and Team Lithiumaniacs, I will spend what it takes to show what an EV Dragster is capable of. We did not organize races to set "okay" records, we sanctioned a racing season to show what EV racing can do. I want nothing but the best money can buy, why go halfway when you went so far? We have chosen Netgain motors because of their expertise in EV racing motors, we will choose the best controllers for our needs. I already purchased a Zilla 2k, for our twin 11" motors, so I am all set, but still would like to see EVNetics to build a "King Kong" of controllers.  



toddshotrods said:


> If you guys are wondering why I am going back and forth with Lithiumaniacs on this - it's for the good of the forum and the hobby/industry. These same questions have been floating around since I've been here, and I just took this opportunity to dig into the "why" behind the delays. I have been on both sides of the issue, originally talking to Tesseract about building a one-off for me before Soliton1 was even out of the womb. I wanted a one-off 2K SepEx Soliton, and he was even willing to discuss the possibilites of that, but as I started to realize what was involved I changed my plans to fit what they already have planned (series). Most recently, I have resolved to time my racing needs to align with the most reasonable development schedule for meag-watt controllers.
> 
> Why? To do my part in helping them build a healthy company. I'd rather see them thrive with Jr and 1, than take a dumb risk and lose everything so we can drool over Big Sol prematurely. The funniest thing though is there wasn't really even a need until this past summer, when WZ and Rocket started flying. Cro has a Zilla, the same controller that made them fly, and I could have purchased one directly from Otmar. we all want Big Sol to be produced because it's big, pretty, and powerful, but until Otmar Frankensteined two Zillas for Rocket there wasn't even a real need. Wayland did all his damage with the same single Zilla he's been torturing for years.
> 
> Come to think of it, I'm not really clear on why Rocket needed 4K? He weighs less than half of what WZ does and has one big sticky tire. Is he really putting 3000amps on the track? Does it really need a Z4K? I'm not saying it isn't or doesn't, I'm asking...


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

This is a very entertaining, and even informative thread. I'm one of those guys that would love to see Big Sol, but in reality the Soliton1 is all I need. I think there are a lot like me out there, dream of Big Sol, but when it comes down to $$$ a Soliton1 fits the bill. It's not the fact that Big Sol might cost 10g's I think that's a good price, but the cost of everything required to go with it. Custom drive train and suspension, something tubbed or atleast able to fit some wide rubber. A battery system that could probably power your house for a year on a single charge. I'm sure it would take a built 11HV but most likely a pair/trio/quartet of your favorite motors or Qer's "Soliton vs Motor counter" would go crazy.

I think the Soliton Jr. is a great next step for Evnetics, 150kw even if it's not a continuous rating like the soliton1 it would blow the doors off all of the other "500A" controllers out there. When compared to a 160v 1000A controller, it has almost the same power!! And if the rating is continuous it probably has more power!!! 

So stop designing new hardware for a few months and let Qer work on some new features, I'd like cruise control myself. But regardless I think Evnetics has done a great job in this uncertain economy in an industry that is just begining to take shape.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The reason the Netgain controller is not selling is a technical issue, not a sale issue. That is why the website states they will be on sale again in 2011.


Once again, you read the facts in a way that supported your argument, not in context. Why Netgains isn't selling controllers yet wasn't the issue, and still isn't. The point was even without them or Otmar being active in that particular segment of the controller market (1K, race quality) the demand isn't too great for one company to fill. Why they aren't there was irrelevant to the point.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You can buy A123 cells if you are willing to pay their enormous price. Tesla will also sell you one of their battery packs. There is many options out their if you have the right connections. There are companies in business now welding together your cells if needed. You seem like a Pessimist? Do you always fight the solution and not work around your problems? Yes, I have found this industry to be frustrating at times, but with the right amount of contacts and calls you can get what you need. Like the problem with the lack of a 2000 to 3000 amp controller, I can guarantee you I will find a producer whether private or production.


I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. I am usually called "the dreamer" on automotive forums because my goals are so high. If you read through my thread and see what my project goals are you'll see I shoot for the stars in distant galaxies. I am practical enough though to know that all those big dreams are worth their weight in crap if they aren't based on something obtainable. You want them to produce controllers because you want them, I want them to build healthy companies that can really afford to take big risks later when it makes sense. If I were a pessimist, I wouldn't still believe that there was a way to get you to understand simple math and logic. 





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You can buy A123 cells if you are willing to pay their enormous price...


I'm really not trying to be funny, or a smart azz, here: Are you okay mentally? Have you ever been diagnosed with any mental disorder? You have a way of interpreting written words almost the exact opposite of how they were written, and creating your own realities that are opposed to established facts. It is a well know fact that A123, and some other EV-related companies, does not sell to the general public at any cost.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

_I _guess I have to chime in here too.....First, Todd, I think you have the market pretty well analyzed, at least for the northeast. And Tesseract also. Although I haven't been involved much with EV racing, I have been involved with EV's since the late 70's. (_btw, I am not that old, I just started in my early teens!)_ The Northeast has never been the hotbed of electric cars-even though it really should have been considering the large urban areas...but the point here is, like Todd said, there are alot of dreams and wishes in this ev world, but when it comes time to spend the money it just doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we all would like. I am sure your partner Doug can attest to that selling parts in NJ. The market really is limited, especially in the US, and especially the northeast. In drag racing I think there would be an initial market (you?), but if history is any proof there is not going to be a "bottomless pit" of customers for a mega controller. Maybe with your ambition and enthusiasm for EV drag racing you can do something for the whole industry, we will see. As far as controllers, I think EVnetics is going in the right direction in product development.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Please tell me more, I am a experienced auto technician, not a electrical engineer, so please take it easy on me. If they come with full instructions on how to build one of these kits, I am more than willing. I can wire and any car or bike, but not sure what goes into a controller?


Essentially, you get a "Kit" which includes the pre-drilled boards and all the components you would need, but you have to solder them on yourself. I believe, if you are not sufficiently skilled enough to solder them yourself, you can get someone to make one for you, but that involves more expense. 

The "Kit" includes an output stage based on MOSFETs and rated for 500A peak, up to 144V. You can also just get the bare controller board without an output stage, but this doesn't come with components.

To make an output stage, you will need to make something that takes in the "Drive" signal from the control board and up-scales it. This can be done using MOSFETs or IGBTs, both kinds of transistors. MOSFETs are better suited to low-voltage, low-current loads, but can be paralleled very easily. IGBTs are better suited to high voltage and high load, but can't be paralleled so easily.

The controller board operates at 12v, does all the processing from the sensors (Current, Voltage, Throttle position), and spits out a PWM drive signal.

Generally, you'd take the "Drive signal" from the controller board, and run that into one (or more) driver ICs. This converts it from a simple 0v/+5v signal into the 0v/+12v or -10v/+15v signal the MOSFETs or IGBTs require.

You also need a large amount of capacitance on the drive section, to smooth out the high demand spikes and not damage your battery pack. As you would be moving away from the officially provided drive board, you would need to find someone to design and make this board for you.

For more information on building and customising the controller, you might want to ask in it's official forum: http://ecomodder.com/forum/open-revolt-open-source-dc-motor-controller.html


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Keep a man talking long enough and he'll bare his soul.

What EVNetics really needs (real customers):


rwaudio said:


> ...I'm one of those guys that would love to see Big Sol, but in reality the Soliton1 is all I need. I think there are a lot like me out there, dream of Big Sol, but when it comes down to $$$ a Soliton1 fits the bill...
> 
> ...So stop designing new hardware for a few months and let Qer work on some new features, I'd like cruise control myself. But regardless I think Evnetics has done a great job in this uncertain economy in an industry that is just begining to take shape.


 

What dreams are made of:


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...My main goal and true intentions is winning races and setting records. I have already spent much capital to organize ECEDRA and Team Lithiumaniacs, I will spend what it takes to show what an EV Dragster is capable of. We did not organize races to set "okay" records, we sanctioned a racing season to show what EV racing can do...


It's about you. What you've spent, what you want. It seems as though you hadn't really considered the consequences for them, in providing your dream. As long as you got what you wanted all would be right with the world. It didn't matter that they would be risking the company that they've worked so hard to build, you need to win races and set records to promote your vision. Your drive is admirable in some ways, but you don't have to step on someone else's neck to get there. 


I probably have my performance goals set a little higher than yours, but I don't want anyone to sacrifice themselves for me to get there. Another thing I've learned in my 4-1/2 decades on Earth is that if it's a goal worth pursuing, it should be worth waiting for, to do it right.

If you're not in sales, you should be. I am working a part-time sales job now to allow me to keep the doors closed for a bit longer on my own business. I took it purposely to brush up on my weakest business trait - I hate typical sales people. When my customers (for the part-time job) are talking I can truly care and listen to them to try to help them, or I can listen with "company ears" to find every single opportunity to sell something to them. That's what you appear to be doing. You're reading for what will help you reach your goals. You miss clearly stated points, because you're seeing something else in the text. The heart of this forum is people help each other - really taking the time to help the other person. People like Major, Jim Husted, Tesseract, and Qer, give away knowledge that they get paid for, to help others. A person here that is looking out for number one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Hey, now I know why I like you guys so much!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Your going a bit over the edge now. I will state my goals, and make sure I reach them. If EVNetics wants to build the Big Sol or not that is their decision, you make it sound like my needs are hurting them. How is my intentions hurting them? I have no control over their company, i can't demand them to a chance and build the Big Sol. I stated I would fund any builder that would build a massive controller, how is that hurting them if it is my money? I have been promoting EVNetics products since ECEDRA negotiated a deal with George. Have you bought any Solitons? I have. have you promoted the Soltiton1 at shows and events? I have. I have done nothing but help ENVetics sell their controllers so I take great offense to your statement that I have stepped on someone's neck! 



toddshotrods said:


> What dreams are made of:
> 
> It's about you. What you've spent, what you want. It seems as though you hadn't really considered the consequences for them, in providing your dream. As long as you got what you wanted all would be right with the world. It didn't matter that they would be risking the company that they've worked so hard to build, you need to win races and set records to promote your vision. Your drive is admirable in some ways, but you don't have to step on someone else's neck to get there.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

ECEDRA will change EV sales for the East Coast, that I can guarantee. When tracks loaded with hundreds of people (interested in building race cars) view what an EV dragster can accomplish, them more will be attracted to the sport. The main problem I see with promoting EV use/racing in the US is this "wait for the customer game". That does not work if you want to grow. You must promote, advertise, race, etc....

In my main business if I waited for my customers to "find me" I would have failed years ago. You MUST find your customers. There are many ways to promote your products, online, mail, phone, events, in my companies we promote in all of the above. If you have no products or "limited" products the customer will move on. Example: my company uses large trucks, if I only had small trucks I would never get some of the jobs we book. There is an old saying " You must spend money to make money". 



EV-propulsion.com said:


> _I _guess I have to chime in here too.....First, Todd, I think you have the market pretty well analyzed, at least for the northeast. And Tesseract also. Although I haven't been involved much with EV racing, I have been involved with EV's since the late 70's. (_btw, I am not that old, I just started in my early teens!)_ The Northeast has never been the hotbed of electric cars-even though it really should have been considering the large urban areas...but the point here is, like Todd said, there are alot of dreams and wishes in this ev world, but when it comes time to spend the money it just doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we all would like. I am sure your partner Doug can attest to that selling parts in NJ. The market really is limited, especially in the US, and especially the northeast. In drag racing I think there would be an initial market (you?), but if history is any proof there is not going to be a "bottomless pit" of customers for a mega controller. Maybe with your ambition and enthusiasm for EV drag racing you can do something for the whole industry, we will see. As far as controllers, I think EVnetics is going in the right direction in product development.
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Your going a bit over the edge now. I will state my goals, and make sure I reach them. If EVNetics wants to build the Big Sol or not that is their decision, you make it sound like my needs are hurting them. How is my intentions hurting them? I have no control over their company, i can't demand them to a chance and build the Big Sol. I stated I would fund any builder that would build a massive controller, how is that hurting them if it is my money? I have been promoting EVNetics products since ECEDRA negotiated a deal with George. Have you bought any Solitons? I have. have you promoted the Soltiton1 at shows and events? I have. I have done nothing but help ENVetics sell their controllers so I take great offense to your statement that I have stepped on someone's neck!


You can take offense all you want, I'm just stating facts as they happen. I have nothing against you, nothing to gain either way. You were trying to get them to invest their money to build the controllers because you want some. The idea of you fronting the costs didn't come up until probably halfway through this thread. Until then the entire risk was on them, and you just got a couple/few controllers for regular price (at most). You were using your experience in business as leverage to convince someone to take the risk. You basically guaranteed it as a good idea; and verified it by stating repeatedly how long you've been in business, etc. The numbers suggest the exact opposite but instead of advising caution (which is good business advice) you aggressively suggested going full steam ahead.

I haven't bought any Solitons. What I have done though is aligned my project to match their goals, and refocused myself to help them develop the right product, for the right market, at the right time. I am not formally associated with EVNetics, but Tesseract has not been shy about telling people that they are working with me to develop the basic needs for Big Sol. I'm a pre-sales part of the process, and looking out for their well-being more than my own. I'm also looking out for the well-being of the entire DIY industry. Even though "being green" is not really my thing, I like the people here and try to look out for their best interests.

I'll state it again, I have no issues with you. I'm simply trying to put the facts in order, and make sense of all the commotion. This issue has been going on longer than you, or probably I, have been around here. It just keeps cycling, so it's time to put things in perspective. You have an agenda, and you're looking for ways to accomplish it. I'm suggesting you consider how the things you do affect others.

I didn't even say you stepped on someone's neck, and I definitely didn't say you did so purposely. I simply said you don't have to do it to get where you want to go.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...In my main business if I waited for my customers to "find me" I would have failed years ago. You MUST find your customers. There are many ways to promote your products, online, mail, phone, events, in my companies we promote in all of the above. If you have no products or "limited" products the customer will move on. Example: my company uses large trucks, if I only had small trucks I would never get some of the jobs we book. There is an old saying " You must spend money to make money".


Your main business provides a service which fulfills a need. You didn't go out and convince people that they should move more often to create a business opportunity. Your business is successful because you spend your time and money fulfilling a real need. Your marketing is to let prospective customers, who are ready to move, know how you can help them. Likewise, EVNetics and Netgains put their main concentration into fulfilling a need - people with street-driven EVs that want performance on par with a standard ICE vehicle.

There is little need for mega-watt controllers, compared to street-going conversions. Most of the people saying they want one are equivalent to the guys who put 632-inch block blocks in their Camaros and putt down to the local cruise-in to show it off. They love the sound of a Big Sol, but Soliton1 is more than they'll really ever use. Most could do just fine with Jr.

If there are 300 people at the drag strip, 30-60 will be racers, 10-20 hardcore (Big Sol types), and the rest spectators who have no real interest in being on the track. Random numbers just to make a point - but taken from the many years I've spent huffing race gas fumes at the drag strip.

Another analogy: Say your average customer is moving two bedroom townhome sized content from one suburban area to another twenty-five miles away. Would you invest more in 14-24ft box trucks or 50-70ft tractor-trailers?

Are you really aware of what a mega-watt of electric power means? Do you know what a ballpark conversion to hp in numbers would be, without going to find a formula, wiki, or thread? Again, I am not trying to be funny. I'm trying to see if you're really aware of what you're asking for. I want it too - a full mega-watt - but still haven't figured out how I am going to translate it into forward motion. That's not as straight-forward as it may seem to be with electric.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> We can talk more about all this privately though, because these subjects are always on the verge of turning into senseless, childish, arguments in public.


*50+ posts later*

Q.E.D. 



EVfun said:


> Another option takes advantage of the way the field of most series motors is connected. They are very often 2 sets of 2 coils in series, with the pairs wired in parallel. If you split those fields you could run one controller through each pair and both through the armature and back to the controllers.


Mmm. Do that with two motors and four Solitons, I bet that'll create some tire smoke... 



Anaerin said:


> If you want "Big" controllers, you could take an "Open ReVolt" kit, and build your own power stage for it. [...] you can have a fully-working and well-featured controller that can provide as many amps as you would ever need. 2,000A, 10,000A, 100,000A, all are possible.


Sorry, but this is oversimplifying it. Taking the controller board from an Open ReVolt kit and build your own power stage won't make it noticeably simpler. You get one guess: Where do you think EVnetics burned all those green ones, on writing software or blowing up IGBTs?

The absolute first prototypes of the Soliton ran with a stupid pulse generator with the only task to provide the IGBTs with a gate signal so that Tesseract could measure current, temperature rise, ripple etc. If you stack on a whole new power stage all that work is moot and you have to start from the beginning again and even "just" doubling the power stage will add new problems with ripple, delays, uneven current distribution etc. It's a road with multiple set backs and high development cost, all covered by the smoke of burning silicon...

It's not so simple that 1+1=2, 2+2=4 etc, somewhere on the line you risk that n+n turns 0 or, even worse, that n+n suddenly equals infinity and you get a runaway situation. Still, it's doable, sure, and using the ReVolt as a base will save you some time, but it won't make it magically simple to achieve high current (seriously; 100kA?) just by multiplying the amount of components. If it were Big Sol would've hit the market months ago...

That's why we've seen all those sad stories in this forum about people that find out the hard way that their controllers weren't as bullet proof as they thought; controlling currents in the hundreds, or thousands, is nightmarish and when you add serious voltages on top of that is when physics starts to move into the realms of black magic.



rwaudio said:


> So stop designing new hardware for a few months and let Qer work on some new features, I'd like cruise control myself.


That is on my wish list as well, but regrettably it's proven tricky to accomplish on the Soliton hardware. Hind sight's 20/20 and all that, so don't hold your breath...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> *50+ posts later*
> 
> Q.E.D. ...


 It's been surprisingly civil. This long of a discussion on some internet forums would have been an all-out name-calling, mud-slinging, playground fight. Like your last post, the thread is loaded with good tech, and common sense answers to the typical "why can't we just..." dream questions.

My hope is that people reading it walk away with a better understanding of each other and better understanding of DIY EV business. I don't think people really understand how much companies like EVNetics and Netgain are sacrificing and risking to even serve this market. If you had invested as much time and money in a more traditional automotive industry segment you would probably be looking for funding for bigger factories, and managing support for the many thousands of items in customers' hands. I think the automotive aftermarket industry is something like $30 billion.






EV-propulsion.com said:


> _..._Todd, I think you have the market pretty well analyzed...


Because I have been in business my whole life (my dad and uncle were in carpentry/light construction before I was born) I am always kind of counting what I see going on. When I am even remotely involved, by brain is more active and keeping informal tallies of activity and possibilities. With the Inhaler project creeping into what it is, and my business being on hiatus, I naturally started looking at this industry as a possible avenue I could explore. I have some ideas for racing products that would slot nicely in with what's available and planned, and benefit the existing companies. The problem is there are almost no potential customers. A phenomenal sales year would be maybe five units of the main product and that pushes the price way beyond what the market can tolerate; not beyond general reasoning, but beyond DIY EV reasoning. You also have to take into account the mental, emotional, and psychological state of your market.

There is a way to do what Lithiumaniac is suggesting, but it takes a massive infusion of cash, and the patience to wait for it to pay off years later. You can create a market where none exists. You can build a customer base, from virtually none. You have to have the money to develop the products, aggresively market them, carefully ingraining your products into the prospective market's life, until they feel they must have it and go on auto pilot. All the while, you must pay your entire team, keep the lights on, and products rolling out the door. You have to have enough money to create the illusion that business is booming, until people buy into it. You have to have the guts to risk all that, because there is no guarantee that people will ever buy into it, or that someone won't beat you at your own game. There is a very famous company, selling exotic little electric sports cars that's working on this model... 

Anyone that suggests any business activity is a no-risk proposition is selling snake oil, because the nature of business in capitalism means taking risk.

As for mega-watt controllers, they will undoubtedly happen because racing will eventually demand them - the keyword is eventually. Just like reasonable production EV prognostications though, it's going to be years before that is a constant demand that requires constant attention. The two guaranteed mega-watt class race teams WZ and Rocket are being tended to by Otmar. The two strongest possibilities CroDriver and Lithiumaniac haven't even fully exhausted the capabilities of a Z2K yet to understand what they really need. You might not even need a full mega-watt, and won't really know until you've pushed the Zilla to its knees (which is not a light task). From his last posts, CroDriver was planning to build his own controller. I'm pretty sure he posted that they had already started purchasing the hard parts, because I remember him saying they're expensive.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

I am trying to be civil on this board, but your comment on my mental status is going way over board, do you have a mental condition? You seem to think your opinion on this matter is golden and everyone else is reading out of content. You seem very opinionated. You being a realist is suspect to me, you are looking for a job and willing to travel anywhere you said. You also stated your not a full supporter for the EV world. In regards to A123 (which I own a boatlaod of stock) I requested a large order and received a price. Try buying in bulk and you may get a phone call back. 

Just to help you understand who I am. I am 42 years old, father of two 18 month old twins (Nicholas & Matthew) and married for over 10 years. I own a home and two warehouses in Middletown, CT. I have owned many business since I was 21 years old. R & T Auto Repair Service, Select Commercial Relocation, GeoBioFuels, CashKing PawnBroker, Connecticut Moving Labor, GeoMetric Moving & Storage, and East Coast Electric Drag Racing Association. My hobbies include boating, fishing, building race cars and bikes.

Now Todd, tell us about yourself? 

I am done with this subject, you went over the line with me and your wise azz remark.



toddshotrods said:


> Once again, you read the facts in a way that supported your argument, not in context.
> 
> I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. .
> 
> I'm really not trying to be funny, or a smart azz, here: Are you okay mentally? It is a well know fact that A123, and some other EV-related companies, does not sell to the general public at any cost.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> I am trying to be civil on this board, but your comment on my mental status is going way over board, do you have a mental condition?


I'm not sure commenting on your mental status is really that out of line considering your repeated behavior on this and the NEDRA boards. Plus you do have the word "maniac" in your screen name, and you do come off as one at times. You're way too high strung dude, lighten up.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I am trying to be civil on this board, but your comment on my mental status is going way over board, do you have a mental condition?...


I stated when I asked it that I was not trying to be a smart azz. I was really asking a question, and I did not say that anything was wrong with you. I didn't make a derrogatory remark about it. I asked the question because you seemed to read posts and turn the content and intent of them upside down in your replies. Sometimes that is caused by things like dyslexia, or mental conditions like paranoia. If you know that the person suffers from them you can rethink how you talk to them, and help them understand. Without going into detail about my experiences, I have worked with kids and adults with mental disorders. The pattern seemed familiar, but could just be coincidence, so I asked to be sure. I know someone who is diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, and she hears like that. When her meds aren't right everything sounds different to her, and most things sound like personal attacks. Sometimes it's just a misunderstanding, sometimes it's a communication barrier, sometimes there is a more scientific reason. I wasn't sure so I asked. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intent.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...You seem to think your opinion on this matter is golden and everyone else is reading out of content. You seem very opinionated...


I am very opinionated, but I temper it with facts. I actually haven't even disclosed my personal opinions on most of this, except for when they line up with the facts.

Again, you flipped the conversation upside down. Everyone in this thread is pretty much in agreement, except you, so how am I thinking "my opinion is golden" and believing that "*everyone* else is reading out of context?" I really don't get that. Everyone here pretty much agrees that there is no real market for mega-watt controllers *yet*, and that investing in it right now is a bad idea. Who is the everyone else that I accused of reading out of context? I pinpointed a few instances where you did, and you even admitted that you had. They were simple misunderstandings that were cleared up.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...In regards to A123 (which I own a boatlaod of stock) I requested a large order and received a price. Try buying in bulk and you may get a phone call back...


Well, congrats you've made more progress on that end than anyone else. When do they arrive, and how much are you selling them for? There will be racers beating your door down to get them. Going back to my point, I said A123 doesn't sell to individuals. None of the current DIY-related businesses seem to have had any luck getting them to sell M1 cells to them either, so they have been unavailable to the entire market. That was just the facts as they were. It wasn't meant to be negative, just facts. When I was planning to use them in my project, since they wouldn't sell, my plan was to go through a distributor and purchase 300+ 36-volt DeWalt packs to get my cells. A realistic plan that I could accomplish, with or without A123's help.






LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...You being a realist is suspect to me, you are looking for a job and willing to travel anywhere you said. You also stated your not a full supporter for the EV world...


Where the heck did you get that I was looking for a job and willing to travel anywhere?! I said I closed my business, sold my shop, and am currently working a part-time sales job to buy more time (to keep it closed) while I make some decisions; and to practice selling (my weakness in business). I think I did say I'm thinking about moving to Florida, but where did _anywhere_ come from? There are many more places I wouldn't consider moving to. I am thinking about moving to Florida because I want to live in a year-round warm climate, near the ocean. California is my final destination, but something about Florida caught my attention. The fact that EVNetics is there would make it easier to work back and forth on Big Sol, with the Inhaler being at their disposal, makes it more tempting. Beside all that, what is the issue with moving - don't you support your family from people needing and wanting to move?






LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...Now Todd, tell us about yourself?


Sure, since we're all camped around the fire telling stories. I grew up in the carpentry and light construction business with my family. We (dad, uncle, two brothers and myself) also had a restaurant/bar for a short time. I started on my own in the custom automotive field, after leaving the restaurant (wasn't my thing). I have been doing that for 2-1/2 decades. I closed up shop at the end of 2008, to pursue other paths (still in the custom automotive field). When I was 19 my mother had an aneurysm and was in a coma for three months. When she came out of it she was basically paralyzed, and the doctors said she would never be able to do anything for herself. I put all of my plans second to taking care of her, and that's what I did for fourteen years. Rather than shoving her in a nursing home, my dad and I took care of her at home. We cooked, cleaned, did physical therapy, I gave her insulin shots, etc - everything she needed. She regained use of everything but her legs, and lived the last fourteen years of her life in peace and comfort - at home. By then my dad was older and tired so I took care of him until he died a few months shy of 80, in 06. My two brothers died prematurely (early 50s) of cancer and an asthma attack in 03 and 07, and my wife and I divorced, so I suddenly found myself on my own, with no one depending on me, for the first time since I was a kid. I don't have kids - by choice.

I owned my own home, had a business, and could have lived comfortably and securely in that litte town for the rest of my life. I decided to do more. I moved to Columbus, am currently in college, working part-time, and planning for the "grand" re-opening of my own business. I am not risk averse at all, I am just practical and realistic. Thinking about going skydiving next summer to take the edge off, and kind of itching to get back on the drag strip - I used to race street-legal dragbikes (no wheelie bar). That's my personality type.

Racing is actually a secondary goal for my project - its prime directive is to be a marketing tool for my design services. Racing is sort of a stamp of validation and authenticity for the design.

Dude, as I have said I have no problem with you. I actually hope you succeed because more EVs going fast is what the sport needs. I like the basic approach that you're willing to do whatever it takes to put the numbers on the clock. The problem is you came in this forum like a bull in a China shop, making bold statements, and trying to take the lead. That's all fine and well, but you didn't take time to listen and make friends first to see who you're dealing with. You actually would have gotten much further with a different approach. The knowledge and wisdom are here to put an EV on par with comparable ICE race vehicles, but their life doesn't depend on that happening. You're not going to push them to do anything.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now, if you were paying attention, the information you need to run 9s (with available technology) was covered in this thread. If enough people do that, it will begin to create the market for Big Sol and Z4K, naturally. The problem with the new American business practice of creating markets is they oftentimes go bubble, then bust - the reason we're in this freakin recession now (artificially inseminated sub-prime real estate market, with supporting financial devices). I'd just rather not subject the fragile little EV drag racing scene to that risk.

I may not be 100% "green", but that doesn't mean I don't care.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Qer said:


> That is on my wish list as well, but regrettably it's proven tricky to accomplish on the Soliton hardware. Hind sight's 20/20 and all that, so don't hold your breath...


It's kind of on the dream list like Big Sol, something that would be great but I'm not holding my breath, I do appreciate the fact you are telling it bluntly though instead of promising and promising then fail to deliver. I'm just spoiled with the intelligent cruise control on my Infiniti, but for the range my EV will have I think I'll live.

Are there any features that you DO have in the works?


And for LithiumaniacsEVRacing, I'm sure if you could buy A123's without any conditions on use and sell them for just enough to cover your costs or even at a small loss to those that would like to use them for racing it would stimulate the high performance EV world into demanding Big Sol. Right now we have headways, and while I think they are good batteries for a performance EV, I don't think they are up to the task of a racing EV.

I don't know anything about the Dow/Kokams if they are available or if the sponsorship is more to prove their batteries for other markets.

So in short to the new racer that wants to get into EV's some of the key pieces aren't that easy to get your hands on if they exist at all. It will take slow growth and evolution for EV racing to even come close to what ICE powered vehicles can do for less money.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Well said, Todd, well said. We've been down this road before. Everyone said that we needed to concentrate on making a replacement for the Zilla instead of a "better Curtis" so that's what we did, even though it is now abundantly clear to me that the Curtis is by far the most popular controller out there. I'm not saying that the decision to make the 1000A Soliton1 first was wrong, just that the 1kA+ level is NOT where the volume is.


I think part of the problem was what you came up with was not a Zilla replacement, it was better, and hence more expensive. A Z1K LV is a better Curtis at 1000 peak and 300 continuous and sold for around $1.9K. Soliton1's continuous 1000 amps is on a whole other level and few will even use half that continuous rating. That would kill even a 200ah pack rather quickly. Your approach to controllers is different than all the other builders since your peak is the same as continuous. It may be the more realistic approach since many of the others blow up but it puts your products in an odd position.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, we will leave it at that. My bold statements are backed by my actions that I have already proved. I am a man of action, I don't just post about it, I handle business. This may have been from my past experiences building business and succeeding when needed. Some Only Talk The Talk, While Others Walk The Walk.

I have spent most of my life on the CT/NY boarder, I have developed that NY "go getter" attitude. This may offend some so I do apologize. 



toddshotrods said:


> Dude, as I have said I have no problem with you. I actually hope you succeed because more EVs going fast is what the sport needs. I like the basic approach that you're willing to do whatever it takes to put the numbers on the clock. The problem is you came in this forum like a bull in a China shop, making bold statements, and trying to take the lead. That's all fine and well, but you didn't take time to listen and make friends first to see who you're dealing with. You actually would have gotten much further with a different approach. The knowledge and wisdom are here to put an EV on par with comparable ICE race vehicles, but their life doesn't depend on that happening. You're not going to push them to do anything.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Before contacting A123 (AONE) I researched Hi-Power and Headway, none can match the ratings a 123 or Dow/Kokams can deliver. I will keep the board informed on our progress with A123, we have "other" options we are discussing that I cannot dislcose at this time. 

All I can say is you should contact Lithiumanaics Racing Team on member's privileges/options. We are currently looking for new team members. 



rwaudio said:


> And for LithiumaniacsEVRacing, I'm sure if you could buy A123's without any conditions on use and sell them for just enough to cover your costs or even at a small loss to those that would like to use them for racing it would stimulate the high performance EV world into demanding Big Sol. Right now we have headways, and while I think they are good batteries for a performance EV, I don't think they are up to the task of a racing EV.
> 
> I don't know anything about the Dow/Kokams if they are available or if the sponsorship is more to prove their batteries for other markets.
> 
> So in short to the new racer that wants to get into EV's some of the key pieces aren't that easy to get your hands on if they exist at all. It will take slow growth and evolution for EV racing to even come close to what ICE powered vehicles can do for less money.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think part of the problem was what you came up with was not a Zilla replacement, it was better, and hence more expensive.


Perhaps, but I think rwaudio might have identified the real reason: people might dream of getting the Z2K for their EV but when it comes time to actually buy something, 99 times out 100 they choose the Curtis. 



JRP3 said:


> Soliton1's continuous 1000 amps is on a whole other level and few will even use half that continuous rating.


The high continuous current rating is there to provide consistent performance and driveability, not necessarily because anyone really needs to pump 1000A into their motor(s) for minutes on end. 

The thing is, it takes anywhere from 10 seconds to 1 minute for the typical controller to reach thermal limiting, at which point you have to rely on its intrinsic heat-shedding ability to be able to get maximum current from it again. Controllers with minimum ribbing and long thermal path lengths from the semiconductors to the enclosure exterior might take several minutes to cool down again. This makes for a rather unimpressive, and potentially dangerous, driving experience, especially when driving up a long on-ramp to get onto the interstate. Nothing like running out of power right when you need to merge with traffic, eh?

Anyway, yeah, I did take a completely different approach to controller design... a more honest one, I'd say, but that might be impolitic of me...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Perhaps, but I think rwaudio might have identified the real reason: people might dream of getting the Z2K for their EV but when it comes time to actually buy something, 99 times out 100 they choose the Curtis.


A good part of that may have been the sketchy availability of the Zillas. The other part is that going from a Curtis to a Z2K or Sol1 is like choosing between a car with a 4 cyl and a V8. Budget constraints will make more people choose the 4 cyl when they really wanted and could have afforded a V6, which wasn't offered. My guess is the Z1K LV was the biggest selling Zilla and would have seen much higher sales if it was consistently available without 6 month lead times.




> The high continuous current rating is there to provide consistent performance and driveability, not necessarily because anyone really needs to pump 1000A into their motor(s) for minutes on end.
> 
> The thing is, it takes anywhere from 10 seconds to 1 minute for the typical controller to reach thermal limiting, at which point you have to rely on its intrinsic heat-shedding ability to be able to get maximum current from it again. Controllers with minimum ribbing and long thermal path lengths from the semiconductors to the enclosure exterior might take several minutes to cool down again. This makes for a rather unimpressive, and potentially dangerous, driving experience, especially when driving up a long on-ramp to get onto the interstate. Nothing like running out of power right when you need to merge with traffic, eh?
> 
> Anyway, yeah, I did take a completely different approach to controller design... a more honest one, I'd say, but that might be impolitic of me...


So the question is were Z1K's failing in use and if not how did Otmar get such a high peak current from such low continuous current components without killing them? Was he just taking a larger risk? Or do you have to limit your peaks because you allow air cooling as an option where the Zilla's didn't?


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Here is a question I would like to pose...

Suppose it is possible to get somebody to build a megawatt controller. Never mind we are talking production numbers for something capable of 1340 horsepower. Hell they don't even do that for internal combustion engines.

How much torque would a megawatt controller mean? 

I mean, it is one thing to have an I.C.E. capable of several thousand ft lbs of torque; heck, even diesel needs to wind up to max torque. 

We are talking about producing thousands of ft lbs of torque from a dead stop! Are there even axles and joints and what not capable of handling that kind of torque?

The other question is this, for most of the racing industry the engines are usually custom built for each individual team. It would be the same as if you are asking GM to produce a ready made drop in race engine for your top fueler. 
Yes, I know they produce some nice powerful crate motors, generally for bragging rights of street enthusiasts, but do you really think they would mass produce a racing engine for a top fuel dragster or funnycar? The market simply isn't there. 8 or 10 or even a hundred people cannot sustain a market, even if we would like it to.

The best we can do is wait for someone to make a series hybrid tractor trailer and grab the megawatt controllers for that application and re-tune the controller for your use. Kind of like the way top fuel dragsters started by using dual semi wheels before the advent of racing slicks.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> The best we can do is wait for someone to make a series hybrid tractor trailer and grab the megawatt controllers for that application and re-tune the controller for your use. Kind of like the way top fuel dragsters started by using dual semi wheels before the advent of racing slicks.


Those would likely be AC units so not much use for a DC series motor.


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Those would likely be AC units so not much use for a DC series motor.


Yea, you are probably right. But my point is this a megawatt controller means you are producing 1340 horsepower, or somewhere around there. No body is going to take the time and effort to try and mass produce something that generates that much power and has an almost nonexistent market. 
Yes, I know people want them. Strictly for racing. That makes the market for such a product extremely narrow. Your best bet is to visit the local engineering college and commission them to specially build one for you.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> ...Suppose it is possible to get somebody to build a megawatt controller...
> 
> capable of 1340 horsepower. Hell they don't even do that for internal combustion engines.
> 
> ...


Hey! Stop trying to turn this into a logical discussion! 

I'm not sure of the actual torque numbers but, as you pointed out, it will be a ridiculous amount to try and apply to the track. From what I've seen, a half-mega-watt controller hasn't been fully utilized yet.





Jason Lattimer said:


> ...Are there even axles and joints and what not capable of handling that kind of torque?...


Yes, but I doubt there is anyone seriously ready to purchase them. I've seen estimates for nitro T/F and nitro F/C around 8000hp/8000ft-lb. The throttle on them is almost an on/off switch and the control is in the clutch, which is tuned by the crew chief for track conditions. I've also heard the g-forces at launch are approaching the maximum a human can stand. So the parts to handle absolutely massive doses of torque are indeed available. The prices for those parts, on the other hand, are best left for the multi-million dollar advertising budgets of major corporations and (in the case of the Al-Anabi team) individuals.

The question even bigger than where can I get a mega-watt controller, is how can I build a vehicle that fully utilizes the characteristics of an electric motor? Would you be impressed with a Corvette with a T/F engine that ran a second slower than one with a TT production-based motor?


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I guess if you want to build the kind of power numbers lithiummaniacs is looking for, unless you have tens of thousands to commission a custom one off megawatt controller for your space rod top fueller you must look elsewhere.

For now the only option otherwise might be three or four solitons and three or four motors.

I guess a four soliton setup with four warp 9s all siammesed together would give you 1.2 megawatts. 
And just think, you are only looking at around 20 grand or so for just the motors and controllers.

It still might be cheaper than having a custom starship warpdrive controller built for you.

I guess the old hot rodders mantra is still alive. 
"How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?"


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> ...And just think, you are only looking at around 20 grand or so for just the motors and controllers...


$20K is about right. Add another $30K for batteries, and you're in the ballpark of what a TT V8 costs - same type of hp.

Racing isn't cheap.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Here is a question I would like to pose...
> 
> Suppose it is possible to get somebody to build a megawatt controller. Never mind we are talking production numbers for something capable of 1340 horsepower. Hell they don't even do that for internal combustion engines.
> 
> ...


We're developing a controller for our own use. 450V/4.000 Amp. The development started a few months ago and it's doing quite well so far. I don't want to compete with EVnetics nor with Otmar. We're just doing it for our own projects and we might never sell them because I know how much time and money I had to invest to develop this thing... Selling a few of them for 10 grand won't help much. We all know that the market for such a controller is practically non-existent. That's exactly Jeffery's attitude, but for EVnetichs it would be great for publicity reasons to have a 1MW controller in the catalog next to the average Joe's Soliton JR. So I can't wait to see the guys screaming "I want 1 MW!" putting their money where their mouth is. 

Or maybe once we have more cool EV racers out there that are kicking gas-powered butts, the market will grow rapidly. We'll find out soon I guess


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> We're developing a controller for our own use. 450V/4.000 Amp. The development started a few months ago and it's doing quite well so far. I don't want to compete with EVnetics nor with Otmar. We're just doing it for our own projects and we might never sell them because I know how much time and money I had to invest to develop this thing... Selling a few of them for 10 grand won't help much. That's exactly Jeffery's attitude, but for EVnetichs it would be great for publicity reasons to have a 1MW controller in the catalog next to the average Joe's Soliton JR. So I can't wait to see the guys screaming "I want 1 MW!" putting their money where their mouth is.


MY GOD MAN!!!!!! What on Earth are you going to do with almost 2 megawatts?!
Planning on breaking a few records are we?


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> We're developing a controller for our own use. 450V/4.000 Amp. The development started a few months ago and it's doing quite well so far. I don't want to compete with EVnetics nor with Otmar. We're just doing it for our own projects and we might never sell them because I know how much time and money I had to invest to develop this thing... Selling a few of them for 10 grand won't help much. We all know that the market for such a controller is practically non-existent. That's exactly Jeffery's attitude, but for EVnetichs it would be great for publicity reasons to have a 1MW controller in the catalog next to the average Joe's Soliton JR. So I can't wait to see the guys screaming "I want 1 MW!" putting their money where their mouth is.
> 
> Or maybe once we have more cool EV racers out there that are kicking gas-powered butts, the market will grow rapidly. We'll find out soon I guess


 
At that size you are almost skipping 1MW and heading for 2.... Is this still for the BMW or is there another platform?


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> We're developing a controller for our own use. 450V/4.000 Amp.


I thought you had a problem with snapping differentials with your Z2K. You want to quadruple the power? You'll be having to have a massively upsized, fully titanium powertrain custom constructed to handle the torque, and even then you'll have a problem with getting the power to the asphalt. Huge, sticky tyres and some kind of anti-slip control (Traction control, if you will) will be a requirement, as without it, when the wheels lose traction (And they will) the motor will extremely quickly enter an overspeed condition and rip itself to shreds.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> ...Huge, sticky tyres and some kind of anti-slip control (Traction control, if you will) will be a requirement, as without it, when the wheels lose traction (And they will) the motor will extremely quickly enter an overspeed condition and rip itself to shreds.


Sounds like one helluva drift car to me! You said it like this is some sort of problem? 

I'm sure he's taking all this into account guys. Being that they're designing their own controller they can incorporate whatever safety and fun features they need to keep all the components in proper form.

Hmmm, that doesn't sound like much fun.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I need to buy Lithiumaniacs a beer someday. I still can't figure out why, but I told Tesseract earlier today that this thread has helped re-ignite my fire with the Inhaler. I have kind of been in a rut lately, lacking the motivation to really get back to work on it. I've started ordering parts, designing parts, and smiling when I think about it again - all since I started posting in this thread!? Dunno why, but I'm glad it happened...

Cheers dude!


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

@ crodriver
*
Mr. Scott engage transwarp drive.*


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*{{{{{She's breaking up Kapptunn!!!}}}}}*


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> I do appreciate the fact you are telling it bluntly though instead of promising and promising then fail to deliver.


Yeah, I get enough of that crap at my day time job. Sales sell shit we don't have, then it's suddenly our problem to try to create magic out of thin air which usually leads to missed deadlines or that we can only meet some of the requested features. Same bloody story every project.

So I prefer to keep quiet or be blunt rather than promise crap I later have to back from which also means that I can be proud over the Soliton controllers since they do exactly what we've claimed they will. On the other hand, if my day time job were equally good I might never had felt the need to find something to do like the Soliton... 



rwaudio said:


> Are there any features that you DO have in the works?


I have a list for the Soliton series that's longer than a 8 year olds Christmas wish list. Most of the tasks are small improvements that most people will probably never really notice but there's also other more obvious things like a rework of the web page layout and enabling temperature control of the fans (they can be turned on and off by the software, it's just not implemented yet...).

But none of the tasks are vital to implement ASAP and as things look right now I think 1.2 will have to do for a while. It feels pretty feature complete and even if you can always wish for more functions etc, it pretty much covers what you could expect out of a motor controller.



JRP3 said:


> how did Otmar get such a high peak current from such low continuous current components without killing them?


Because it's the fact that he DOES dial down the continuous current so low that the controller survives the peak.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I drink Budweiser. Let me know when your coming this way. It was a journey with you. I see you guys have been having fun with out me!




toddshotrods said:


> I need to buy Lithiumaniacs a beer someday. I still can't figure out why, but I told Tesseract earlier today that this thread has helped re-ignite my fire with the Inhaler. I have kind of been in a rut lately, lacking the motivation to really get back to work on it. I've started ordering parts, designing parts, and smiling when I think about it again - all since I started posting in this thread!? Dunno why, but I'm glad it happened...
> 
> Cheers dude!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Qer said:


> Because it's the fact that he DOES dial down the continuous current so low that the controller survives the peak.


So does that mean if you dial down the continuous current of the Soliton you could increase the peak?


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Qer said:


> Because it's the fact that he DOES dial down the continuous current so low that the controller survives the peak.


I'm pretty sure it is the thermal limits that cut the Zilla current limit down (it isn't time over some continuous rating.) But realistically there is no reason for a 500 amp continuous rating. The smaller Z1k is about 300 amps continuous and that would suck 100 amp hour Lithium cells flat in 20 minutes. Very few, if any, EV drivers will ever demand that. I'm not aware of any street EVs where the smaller Zilla Z1k has had thermal limit issues, except for ones with inadequate cooling. On the drag strip it is the 15 second (or hopefully less) rating that is important.

Does using large modules instead of lots of small parts on a copper plate cause the "hang time" over continuous to be shorter (less useable for driving)? 

The old DCP and controllers took advantage of this a little differently. The DCP 1200 was limited to 1200 battery amps but could manage 1600 motor amps for very short times and the DCP 600 about 800 motor amps. These where also MOSFET controllers which also changes the current vs. heat created curve compared to IGBTs. They where very short limits, you could actually bump into them on the street and feel a little reduction in launch power if you keep driving it like an on/off switch. If the Jr could get a little extra motor amps like that I think it would become even more popular. Even my little old Datsun is set for 600 motor amps (300 battery amps) so I can take off nicely in 2nd gear (and ignore 1st.)


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rwaudio said:


> At that size you are almost skipping 1MW and heading for 2.... Is this still for the BMW or is there another platform?


Hmm, good question... I'm not really sure about this one...

Option 1 is the BMW, option 2 is a new BMW (like the new 3 series) and option 3 is a drag racer chassis. I still have to figure out what platform we'll use



Anaerin said:


> I thought you had a problem with snapping differentials with your Z2K. You want to quadruple the power? You'll be having to have a massively upsized, fully titanium powertrain custom constructed to handle the torque, and even then you'll have a problem with getting the power to the asphalt. Huge, sticky tyres and some kind of anti-slip control (Traction control, if you will) will be a requirement, as without it, when the wheels lose traction (And they will) the motor will extremely quickly enter an overspeed condition and rip itself to shreds.


Nah, this isn't such a big problem like people think... If you build your own stuff you can design every part of the whole package to fit your needs. The powertrain will be re-built from scratch again so we'll have a transmission that can keep up with the torque. At least I hope so 



Jason Lattimer said:


> @ crodriver
> *
> Mr. Scott engage transwarp drive.*





toddshotrods said:


> *{{{{{She's breaking up Kapptunn!!!}}}}}*


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You are going to need a 4 link chassis rear suspension with a Dana or Ford 9" custom rear and remove the stock rear. I know someone that "exploded" his stock BMW rear with two 11" motors.



CroDriver said:


> Hmm, good question... I'm not really sure about this one...
> 
> Option 1 is the BMW, option 2 is a new BMW (like the new 3 series) and option 3 is a drag racer chassis. I still have to figure out what platform we'll use
> 
> ...


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> So does that mean if you dial down the continuous current of the Soliton you could increase the peak?


Clever boy, but nope. 

The Soliton 1 could give a higher peak current (which is the reason for that hard to kill rumour of a Soliton 1 racing edition) but it wouldn't be a factor 3 or so simply because the Soliton isn't built as any other controller (as I'm aware of). It would, however, cut the margins paper thin and since reliability has always been one of the major guide lines for the Soliton 1 and Junior we won't go there.

If Soliton 1 was more traditionally built the continuous amps would indeed be lower, but peak wouldn't get substantially higher.



EVfun said:


> But realistically there is no reason for a 500 amp continuous rating.


Oh, I don't know. I unfortunately seem to have mislaid that particular log file but I have one (or at least used to...) that shows a rather heavy vehicle going up a pretty steep and long uphill slope, and that took some serious continuous motor amps. This isn't of course the general EV scenario, but it still proves that there are situations where more than 300 Amps continuous rating might come in handy.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I'm pretty sure it is the thermal limits that cut the Zilla current limit down (it isn't time over some continuous rating.) But realistically there is no reason for a 500 amp continuous rating.


You keep saying something to this effect but we have plenty of log files that prove otherwise. Maintaining 65mph on a 4% grade - like that of the Skyway bridge near our shop - usually requires 450-650A depending on the weight and aerodynamics of the car. 

Another thing you seem to get hung up or otherwise not realize is that 30 seconds is more or less the same as "continuous" for most controllers.

More specifically, "continuous" starts at whatever amount of time it takes to reach thermal equilibrium with ambient at a given amount of output current, and that time is usually in the range of 5 seconds to 1 minute. Of course the precise amount depends on many factors, but the range I just gave seems to apply to every controller we've come across thus far. So you don't need to run the controller for 20 minutes or an hour, etc., to reach its "continuous current rating" - a mere 30 seconds to 1 minute will generally suffice.



EVfun said:


> The smaller Z1k is about 300 amps continuous and that would suck 100 amp hour Lithium cells flat in 20 minutes. Very few, if any, EV drivers will ever demand that.


Yeah, sure, and 20 minutes was about the longest you could drive with lead-acid batteries - but why hobble the controller to match the "average battery"? What if an even better battery than LFP becomes available at some point? Or what if someone hooks up a range extender trailer to their EV, so they can drive for hours on end? Or someone installs a Level III charger so they can blast 20kWh back into their pack in 6 minutes and resume zooming down the interstate at 75mph?

One of our goals at Evnetics is to make EVs that better match humans, rather than hope that humans will someday better match EVs. That strategy seems to be serving us well so far, I should note 



EVfun said:


> Does using large modules instead of lots of small parts on a copper plate cause the "hang time" over continuous to be shorter (less useable for driving)?


The large modules do utilize their silicon much more efficiently than the small plastic-package parts so there is much less less need to "overrate" them to get to a desired output current rating. The main reason for this is the modules use a "heat spreader" in between the actual semiconductor chip (called a die) and the baseplate. This is too costly to do with cheap plastic-package parts that might sell for $10 or less, but eminently reasonable for modules that cost $100 to $1000 each.

As the package gets smaller the derating required gets even more ridiculous. I just recently designed an electronic circuit breaker for starting batteries that required 16 MOSFETs supposedly rated for 90A each in parallel just to get to a reliable 400A current rating... Then again, the MOSFETs only cost $0.32 each so 16 of them wasn't exactly breaking the bank.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can see the need for 500 continuous in some heavier vehicles with long uphill grades. 500 continuous and 800-1000 peak would probably be the perfect controller for 99% of all situations, but it sounds as if component limitations simply don't allow that.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...The other part is that going from a Curtis to a Z2K or Sol1 is like choosing between a car with a 4 cyl and a V8. Budget constraints will make more people choose the 4 cyl when they really wanted and could have afforded a V6, which wasn't offered....


I happen to agree completely with you on this - many people probably bought/will buy the wrong controller simply because the steps between them are too coarse and their budget won't let them err on the side of "too big" - but as of now there still aren't enough people who convert vehicles to electric each year to justify us offering a broader product portfolio with finer gradations of power.

We still need to see whether Junior cannibalizes sales of its bigger brother, or if it only diverts sales away from Kelly, Curtis, etc... Ie - will we still sell the same number of Soliton1s each month or not?


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I happen to agree completely with you on this - many people probably bought/will buy the wrong controller simply because the steps between them are too coarse and their budget won't let them err on the side of "too big" - but as of now there still aren't enough people who convert vehicles to electric each year to justify us offering a broader product portfolio with finer gradations of power.
> 
> We still need to see whether Junior cannibalizes sales of its bigger brother, or if it only diverts sales away from Kelly, Curtis, etc... Ie - will we still sell the same number of Soliton1s each month or not?


Based on the number of more generic 500A controllers used when you look at evalbum, I have a feeling some people are buying Evnetics products for the features, reliability and continuous rating, not necessarily because they want/need 1000A, the people who might have bought the Soliton1 just because it was a "Soliton" might have been happy with a Jr. I would say look at the battery packs of Soliton1 customers, do they really have what it takes to make use of a Soliton1 past 1000 or 1500rpm? I had to work hard to try and design for 1000 battery amps at 288v nominal, and even then I'll be pushing the headways pretty hard, and voltage sag will definatially come into play. 

I would bet that Soliton Jr. will do both, cut into Soliton1 sales, and divert sales away from the others. However there is now an upgrade path for people who love their Jr. but want more power, sell the Jr. and buy a Soliton1. Same wiring, same features, bigger footprint and more power.


----------



## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Hmm, good question... I'm not really sure about this one...
> 
> Option 1 is the BMW, option 2 is a new BMW (like the new 3 series) and option 3 is a drag racer chassis. I still have to figure out what platform we'll use


Hey Cro, As you love BMW, maybe I have something in mind for you. What do you think about a BMW like this in Electric? 

Or maybe RON can do it, as I hear he has a lots of money to spend


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> ...What do you think about a BMW like this in Electric? ...


Floats my boat!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have worked long hours 7 days a week to earn my money, don't be a "hater" now. LOL 



albano said:


> Or maybe RON can do it, as I hear he has a lots of money to spend


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

It is a nice set-up, would produced the chassis?



albano said:


> Hey Cro, As you love BMW, maybe I have something in mind for you. What do you think about a BMW like this in Electric?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We received our Zilla 2K.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Now that I have a Zilla 2K for the twin 11" motor Camaro, lets talk parallel or series connection?

In my opinion because my 11" motors are non-HV motors, and my Zilla 2K is not a HV 2K, that I should connect in series then rely on full current (torque) and then use the hairball to switch into parallel mode for more voltage. 

or

Connect in parallel, rely on 1000amps each motor with max volts for each motor (only 200V). This route seems to make no sense to me because my battery pack must stay around 200 volts because thats all the Zilla 2K and motors can handle?

Wait a minute, I must call my connect, is the Zilla part number a Zilla 2k HV?

Let's talk gentlemen!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Now that I have a Zilla 2K for the twin 11" motor Camaro, lets talk parallel or series connection?
> 
> In my opinion because my 11" motors are non-HV motors, and my Zilla 2K is not a HV 2K, that I should connect in series then rely on full current (torque) and then use the hairball to switch into parallel mode for more voltage.
> 
> ...


You still have too many unknowns to answer that question. It depends mostly on what you end up with for a battery pack. If your pack is stout enough, you will probably be able to run in series the whole race, like WZ is doing now. That requires the proper gearing to put your motors at or near your chosen redline going through the traps. If your pack sags significantly you will probably have to do the series/parallel switch to bring the voltage to each motor high enough to keep pushing through the last half of the race. Either way, you're going to start in series. Whether or not you switch depends on how deep you reach into your bank account for batteries.


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Now that I have a Zilla 2K for the twin 11" motor Camaro, lets talk parallel or series connection?
> Let's talk gentlemen!


If you bought that new from Otmar (Cafe Electric) then I thing you would have a Z2k-EHV. I think that is the only model available new. In that case you have a 348 volt controller.

Now you have to figure out how much voltage the motors can safely take at high amps. Most likely you can use a series only set up. I would at least start that way and if it "goes to sleep" at the far end of the track try taller gears. At some point taller gears will hurt the 60 foot time more than turning up the motor amps and ramp rate can fix. If it is still "goes to sleep" then you need to consider series/parallel switching. There is no simple formula for a fast EV, every race built one is unique and needs to be dialed in to reach its potential.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you all! We have discussed this with our techs. We will start with series/parallel with 3:73 gears on the dyno. We will also track test before the first big event in March 2011, FL. We most likely will try different options, with my motors not being HV motors we know where we stand.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...with my motors not being HV motors we know where we stand.


You keep stressing that, but all the fast guys are running "plain ol" series wound motors like you're getting. The HVs are kind of new to the scene, and AFAIK Cro's dyno numbers are the only documented proof of their potential. What I'm trying to say is the fact that you don't have HVs is not necessarily a problem. If you just ordered them from Netgain, what you may not have is Jim's trickery inside to allow them to stand up to the punishment they're going to endure. I guess it's too late now, but did you consider just ordering a pair directly from him, already setup for racing?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Our motors have been built by Netgain (I speak with George) and the adapter/connector is coming from Ian at RevConversions. They both have been working on my set-up. Hopefully the motors will be sent soon. There are some "heavy duty" extras being added. 



toddshotrods said:


> You keep stressing that, but all the fast guys are running "plain ol" series wound motors like you're getting. The HVs are kind of new to the scene, and AFAIK Cro's dyno numbers are the only documented proof of their potential. What I'm trying to say is the fact that you don't have HVs is not necessarily a problem. If you just ordered them from Netgain, what you may not have is Jim's trickery inside to allow them to stand up to the punishment they're going to endure. I guess it's too late now, but did you consider just ordering a pair directly from him, already setup for racing?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our motors have been built by Netgain (I speak with George) and the adapter/connector is coming from Ian at RevTech. They both have been working on my set-up. Hopefully the motors will be sent soon. There are some "heavy duty" extras being added.


It'll be interesting to see if Netgains has it figured out (what to do inside to permit the torture sessions). I think the really fast motors have all been built by Husted and Berube, so far. Competition is good. Keep us posted, and take lots of pics!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I will. Love to spread info as it comes in, kinda addicted to these forums from my biofuel days. I apologize this is the correct info on the company working with Netgain to "attach" motors:
Ian Wickson
REV Conversion Co.
928-282-0101 office
928-649-0102 fax
[email protected]

They were recommended by George at Netgain. It seems they have done many already. 



toddshotrods said:


> It'll be interesting to see if Netgains has it figured out (what to do inside to permit the torture sessions). I think the really fast motors have all been built by Husted and Berube, so far. Competition is good. Keep us posted, and take lots of pics!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...I apologize this is the correct info on the company working with Netgain to "attach" motors:...


I thought it was kind of strange for a company that specializes in American V-twins to build e-motor stuff, but hey ya never know!


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LOL, my mind was wandering. RevTech motors suck. I put a TP 124" in my custom Harley years ago. 


toddshotrods said:


> I thought it was kind of strage for a company that specializes in American V-twins to build e-motor stuff, but hey ya never know!


----------

