# [EVDL] EVLN: Coolest EV experiment on the planet



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's a cool experiment but all the lithium cell vehicles can run at -20C.
Limited range but they can all run and still reasonably spritely too. I did
an arctic experiment with a lithium cell and found that at -20F the cells
had a hard time releasing any energy. The cell was fully at -20 and we
continued the experiment to colder than 
-58F where my meter could no longer measure temp. We put the cell in a
cooler with dry ice and charged it. At -20 and using standard charging
algorithm the voltage of the cell was way high. We had to turn down the
amperage to under 2 amps before we got the voltage back down below 3.4
volts. Total charge as the cell cooled in the cooler until it no longer took
a charge was about 14 AH. At -58 F the cell was fully in hibernation mode
and would not allow any charge. It actually did not allow any charge long
before that point. It was not until we thawed the cell the next day that the
cell woke up and began to discharge at about -20F. A bit above that the cell
began discharging just fine. Once above 0F the cell was running the motor
normally and at about the proper amperage expected from a warm cell. Cell is
fine after being frozen. Once fully thawed it works normally. 

I found with my Leaf that there is plenty of residual warmth from driving
and charging to keep the pack warm even though the outside temps are quite
cold. Our coldest we got here was like 18F and the Leaf performed just fine.
There is a temp sensor on the pack and if the pack gets too cold the car
will prevent it from being used. As long as all the sensors are reading that
its safe the car can go. My Leaf has no battery warmer. There is a main
battery pack temp gauge in the car and it is always at or above 4 blue bars
even after charging during the day and letting it sit in the cold until the
following morning. 

I would assume that all the cars in the test had warm batteries even though
the outside temps were quite cold. 

Bet if you left the cars out in the open for a few days to allow all the
cells in the pack to get to ambient temps that the result would have been a
bit different. 

Pete 


-----
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--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Feb 2012 at 7:36, gottdi wrote:
> 
> > It's a cool experiment but all the lithium cell vehicles can run at -20C.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

Back in 76 when I pick up my first EV, call Transformer I from the Electric 
Fuel Propulsion company in Troy, Michigan where Bob Rice work at. Robert 
Aronson told me not to discharge the battery pack below 50% below 32 F. 
degrees. After even a full charge battery is setting overnight, the heavy 
acid is concentrated at the bottom and its weaker at the top. At a battery 
temperature between 25 to 30 degrees, this top layer of electrolyte may 
freeze forming ice cystrals.

A full charge Pb H2SO4+5H20 battery will be frozen solid at -113 F.

Robert gave me a charging temperature sheet that list the charge voltage at 
different temperatures which is about 0.028 volts increase per cell for 
every 10 volts drop below 80 F. Robert said, the colder it gets, you are 
actually super charging the batteries at higher voltage.

The battery pack were 90 each 2 volt 300 ah cobalt cells. The onboard 
charger had a charge range from 12 volts to 305 volts from 0.0001 amp to 100 
amp with a input voltage of 120, 208, 240 and 277 volt AC. I normally set it 
at a 50 amp charge at 242 volt DC and 240 volt AC at home for a battery 
temperature of 32 F. At work, I would set it at 5 amps at 120 volts AC and 
up to 252 volt DC which would drop below 1 amp in 8 hours. This is enough 
charge to keep the batteries at a very low simmer when I had temperatures 
down to -35 F. The battery temperature never went below 32 F.

At the time, it was not garage, the charger was left on all the time at a 
very low ampere at these low temperatures. The specific gravity of these 
batteries were 1.300 sg which is hotter than the normal battery we have now 
which is 1.275 sg.

Today, I still do not provide any additional heat for my battery pack. This 
morning the battery temperature was at 60 F. which is the temperature in the 
garage. Took a 2.2 mile drive in 25 F. temperature and charge the 180 volt 
battery pack at 25 amps at 234 volts DC which only took 20 minutes with the 
PFC-50 charger. The battery temperature rose to 68 F after charging and 
drops to 66.4 F in 4 hours.

According to Nawaz at U.S. Battery if your Pb battery is only 10 degrees 
below the normal 80 F. battery temperature, and your driving and charging 
increases it another 10 F, then do not temperature compensate the charging 
voltage.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Coolest EV experiment on the planet




> > On 22 Feb 2012 at 7:36, gottdi wrote:
> >
> > > It's a cool experiment but all the lithium cell vehicles can run
> > > at -20C.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Feb 2012 at 11:44, Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > Back in 76 when I pick up my first EV, call Transformer I from the Electric
> > Fuel Propulsion company in Troy, Michigan where Bob Rice work at. Robert
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 22 Feb 2012 at 7:36, gottdi wrote:
> >
> >> It's a cool experiment but all the lithium cell vehicles can run at -20C.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Feb 2012 at 16:07, David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > My take from "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> > Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu was that if the batteries were
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,

That is correct. When I took my frozen cell and connected it to my charger I
set it up to charge at 15 amps. A cold/frozen cell in those temp ranges
caused the cell voltage to be well above 3.9 volts at 15 amps. This was with
a discharged cell we wanted to charge up. We were at a below zero temp to
the cell at this point. This is above the ending voltages normally used when
charging the LiFePO4 cells. So in order to get the voltages below the end
voltage range we needed to drop the amperage. We kept dropping the amperage
to below 5 amps before the voltage of the battery was under the ending
voltage we normally use which is 3.65 volts per cell. All the while the cell
was getting colder and colder and colder as it sat in the cooler with the
dry ice. Once the cell was at -20 there was no real charging going on. The
amperage was at nearly zero and the voltage was at 3.7 volts. So we
terminated our charge. In total we put in an average of only 14 Ah into a
100 Ah cell. We were unable at that time to really discharge the cell
either. The cell voltage could be read properly but when connected to a
motor the voltage just dropped to the millivolt range and you could not even
get a spark out of the cell by shorting the terminals. Once thawed the cell
bounced back to life and discharged quite fine. Even at -20 the discharge
was very minimal but you could. Once at about -10 you could get the motor to
spin and once at about 0 it was just fine. But if you put it on the charger
the amperage would need to be real low or the voltage would spike. Above
zero but well into the freezing zone the cell would take a charge OK. Above
32 was nary a problem. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Coolest-EV-experiment-on-the-planet-tp4410551p4414306.html
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Gottdi wrote:
> 
> > That is correct. When I took my frozen cell and connected it to my
> > charger I set it up to charge at 15 amps. A cold/frozen cell in those
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > If I understand this correctly, he's saying that operating the EV in very
> > cold weather is OK - but it's not OK to charge it.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 23 Feb 2012 at 8:08, gottdi wrote:
> 
> > at -20 there was no real charging going on ... We were unable at
> > that time to really discharge the cell either.... at about
> ...


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