# Alternative to air conditioning?



## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

That water chiller does not nearly have enough power. A car requires at least 500W, if not 1000W of air conditioning power.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

A car requires whatever level of power you require to be comfortable.

That unit looks a bit pricey for an experiment, but if there's something else you could use it for if it doesn't work, I'd say give it a shot.

However, is that a 1/10 HP or is it 1 or 10 HP? The math doesn't add up. Also, you want to know max watts, 264 may be what it requires to maintain the chill.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

250W of cooling isn't going to even make a noticeable change to the temperature of the car. Solar radiance is 1400W per square meter! 

And there are a lot of other reasons this is a bad idea:

-Any device designed to keep a volume of liquid cool will use a compressor with a duty cycle. Running it non stop like you would in a car will quickly destroy the motor
-A typical automobile has an air conditioner sized between 2 and 4kW. 250W is not even in same scale. 
-More expensive than a more powerful window AC unit rated for continuous duty


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

The unit specified is a tenth of a horse unit. It's designed to run 24x7 to keep an aquarium cool, up to 93 gallons. Beyond that... any fish lovers out there that might perhaps have something like this and would be willing to plug it into a gallon of water in a bucket?


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

The first question would be what vehicle are you planning this for and general location plus are you planning to insulate at all. I have been looking at infrared blocking window film to reduce cooling/heating requirements that may work for auto applications.
*
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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

I am going to be working with a full size Chevy reg cab truck, and it will be insulated. Was planning on using an S10 until it was totaled out by a woman at a 2 way stop intersection who thought she was at a 4 way stop intersection. 

What got me to thinking along these lines was seeing one of these units installed on a conversion. Was thinking that if it was possible for a small amount of water to be heated quickly, then it should be possible to cool a small amount of water just as quickly. Whether it can be or not, it was worth looking into.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

my thoughts revolve around the 93 gallons, Huge energy sink which would not be duplicated by whatever you put into the vehicle. 1/10 hp sounds like maintenance not cool down.


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## iti_uk (Oct 24, 2011)

Much less efficient than a heat pump system, for example the aircon pump/evaporator/condenser.

Not sure about the peltier element setup - I did a little research on that a while ago and came away with the conclusion that standard aircon was still more efficient, if possibly more bulky.

Chris


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> my thoughts revolve around the 93 gallons, Huge energy sink which would not be duplicated by whatever you put into the vehicle. 1/10 hp sounds like maintenance not cool down.


Yes, the 93 gallons is what caught my eye as well, but I think for a different reason. On the aquariums it takes a few hours to cool the water down, runs 24hrs a day, but is able to maintain the temp once it reaches the designated temp regardless of room temp, hot lights over the aquarium, ect. My thinking was that if it's able to cool 93 gallons down to the 40 degree range then cooling 1 gallon should be no problem. Instead of running 93 different gallons through once at a time to cool the water, it would run the same gallon through 93 times. 



iti_uk said:


> Much less efficient than a heat pump system, for example the aircon pump/evaporator/condenser.
> 
> Not sure about the peltier element setup - I did a little research on that a while ago and came away with the conclusion that standard aircon was still more efficient, if possibly more bulky.
> 
> Chris


Probably. I'm still looking at other methods of doing this too. One thing that caught my eye was this fellow that converted a window unit to cool his car. Then there are the dedicated Danfoss and Masterflux compressors. 

If the water cooling system could be made to work, this would simplify air conditioning for people who have non-AC cars. The Peltiers would work, but you'd need an awful lot of them. I even found one that you drill a hole in the aquarium and attach it so this probe sticks in the water, with a heat sink on the outside. It would take several of them to do the job, and as they were pretty large to begin with due to the heat sinks...


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

A design to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sI6ZO6UrQc


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Holy cow those are some tiny compressors! I thought they were running three fridge sized Danfoss compressors at first, then the guy puts his hand in the shot and his hand is large enough to cover all three of them!


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## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

Here's a link to the AC featured in the video http://www.amt-aero.com/flycool.html 

7,000 Btu/hr and 400 CFM @ less than 45 Amps. I assume it's a 24 VDC system (approx 1kW input power).


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## iti_uk (Oct 24, 2011)

Wild said:


> A design to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sI6ZO6UrQc


Very promising! Video states 22-35lbs (10-16kg).

Nice find!


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks PT for the link. This system looks like it has great potential for EV's along with flexible mounting location including trunks. Now let's find out the price for this system.


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## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

Wild said:


> Thanks PT for the link. This system looks like it has great potential for EV's along with flexible mounting location including trunks. Now let's find out the price for this system.


Yeah, I'm afraid to ask about the price. Knowing that it's designed for aircraft I suspect it could go for as much as $1 per Btu!


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

PTCruisin said:


> Yeah, I'm afraid to ask about the price. Knowing that it's designed for aircraft I suspect it could go for as much as $1 per Btu!


Talking to the company and will get more info later, aircraft versions would be more however an auto application may be aprox $3000


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Here we go again, talking about a/c in an ev..lol, seems this has been discussed in other posts.

The best, easiest and cheapest, is to use the masterflux compresser system, unless you can take the existing compressor and install it on the shaft of the motor and idle it.

I'm assuming at this point you have an existing a/c system in your vehicle. Just install the compressor and have an auto a/c tech charge it, unless you have the equipment to do that yourself.


I'm not going into the water chiller or other type stuff, exept to say it is not going to work, otherwise you would have seen it already in ice vehicles. Most vehicle require a lot more btu's to cool then most are aware of.

Air conditioning is not about cooling the air, its about heat removal.

Roy


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Those are neat little compressors, and worth looking into.

None of the rest of the stuff is of much interest. Its all optimized for light weight and size, and it seems to be much lower capacity that what you'd need for most cars, which are huge in every dimension compared to a LSA cabin.

Stacking up a row of those little compressors along the firewall or out in the grille is doable, it just depends on their output, cost and durability compared to the Masterflux and its controller. Everything else would be on OEM component, or for a car never engineered for A/C, something like a Vintage Air aftermarket set-up.

So whose compressors are those?


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

What about having a fridge on the back seat with the fridge door removed .


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

You might also look into seat cooling systems, like the race guys use.


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

If you guys read the OP Telco already has AC in the vehicle.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ace_bridger said:


> What about having a fridge on the back seat with the fridge door removed .


Would be better to remove the top as well, and use it as a bucket seat.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Yes, there are established ways of doing this. Using a water chiller is not one I've seen before. Well, I take that back. The place I work at uses water chilling to cool the entire 4 story building, so there is no question that water chilling DOES work. Second, the heater core is capable of heating the entire cabin in just a few minutes once the engine has heated the water to at least 120 degrees, so there is no question that the heater core is capable of moving enough heat to change the cabin interior temperature. The question here is whether there is a cost effective way to chill water enough to cool the interior given the power and space limitations a car has. And a typical car system runs about 8000 to 10,000BTU. Some folks may just stop with the first possible solution, others will continue to look for better solutions. Those that are always naysaying new ideas, makes you wonder why they bother to be on sites such as this.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Telco said:


> Yes, there are established ways of doing this. Using a water chiller is not one I've seen before. Well, I take that back. The place I work at uses water chilling to cool the entire 4 story building, so there is no question that water chilling DOES work. Second, the heater core is capable of heating the entire cabin in just a few minutes once the engine has heated the water to at least 120 degrees, so there is no question that the heater core is capable of moving enough heat to change the cabin interior temperature. The question here is whether there is a cost effective way to chill water enough to cool the interior given the power and space limitations a car has. And a typical car system runs about 8000 to 10,000BTU. Some folks may just stop with the first possible solution, others will continue to look for better solutions. Those that are always naysaying new ideas, makes you wonder why they bother to be on sites such as this.


I'm assuming your talking about me, so let me say up front that I'm a professional at HVAC and refrigeration. Having said that, I didnt want to make a long explanation in my previous post, why water chilling and electronic (peltier) is not a good solution for an EV.

The reason water chilling is used in large buildings, is because running refrigerant lines to that many locations is not practical or cost effective considering the cost of refrigerant, thats why they have a central water chiller and pump water to coils to cool, or heat.

Peltier elements do not have enough btu to cool a vehicle, and use a lot of power, something one would not want to do in an EV.

So again let me repeat, either use a three phase dc comprsssor, or use a regular automotive compressor belted to the motor, there are no other solutions at this point in time.

Roy


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> I'm assuming your talking about me, so let me say up front that I'm a professional at HVAC and refrigeration. Having said that, I didnt want to make a long explanation in my previous post, why water chilling and electronic (peltier) is not a good solution for an EV.
> 
> The reason water chilling is used in large buildings, is because running refrigerant lines to that many locations is not practical or cost effective considering the cost of refrigerant, thats why they have a central water chiller and pump water to coils to cool, or heat.
> 
> ...


They were directed at you, Roy. Why do you even come to this site? This is a site for innovators, who want to do something different, not a site for those who can't see beyond their training. I'm sure you're a fine tech and you are probably the guy I want working on my house HVAC when it blows a fuse, but when it comes down to coming up with a new way to do stuff you're not even on the list. Before posting this up I was reading other threads to cover this topic along with a couple of other things, and your posts are the ones that try to discourage people; you tell people this or that will never work; you slap out the standard solution and expect people to just go with it. Your next response, if you bother to post again, will be a long post with lots of reasons why this won't work using math that I'm sure came from whatever HVAC school you went to, but I'd rather you not bother. It won't make a difference to me, and it won't stop me from checking into this if I decide to go this way. If anything, it'll make it MORE likely that I'll see if I can't make this work. Feel free to ignore this thread in the future, Roy.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Last post notwithstanding... folks, I may pick up an aquarium cooler later this year just to see what would happen if I ran just one or two gallons through it. However I'm also pursuing other solutions so I may give this one up. If anyone else wants to give it a try, go for it. Even if I decide not to go this way, I'll still be interested in whether this works or not. It wouldn't do any good to mess with it in February anyway, and I do have an engine to pull and rebuild so my time's pretty tied up.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Hey if you want to waste time and money, knock yourself out.

Roy


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Hmm, so far the Eco Plus 1/4HP water chiller looks promising. It's designed to pull 170 gallons down 10 degrees or 100 gallons down 30 degrees. It should be able to pull down 2-3 gallons 70-80 degrees, which would mean 110 degree water down to 30-40 degrees. No information yet on how fast it can do it, but if it can't do it within 5 minutes then for the most part it'll not be feasible except on commuters where you can have the chiller autostart at a set time every day. Unfortunately, it looks like unit sizing is going to be a problem. Still poking around though, there are water cooling units that will actually make instant ice on demand so it's just a matter of finding the right unit.


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

Telco said:


> Hmm, so far the Eco Plus 1/4HP water chiller looks promising. It's designed to pull 170 gallons down 10 degrees or 100 gallons down 30 degrees. It should be able to pull down 2-3 gallons 70-80 degrees, which would mean 110 degree water down to 30-40 degrees. No information yet on how fast it can do it, but if it can't do it within 5 minutes then for the most part it'll not be feasible except on commuters where you can have the chiller autostart at a set time every day. Unfortunately, it looks like unit sizing is going to be a problem. Still poking around though, there are water cooling units that will actually make instant ice on demand so it's just a matter of finding the right unit.


Sorry Telco but 2-3 gallons will not hold the BTU's you needed to cool down even the smallest interior and I doubt that trucking around the actual required mass of water will be efficient. Also keep in mind that this eco plus will become less efficient as the outside temp gets hotter I just don't see it working at all.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

These coolers are designed to cool over 100 gallons and are supposed to be used with a pump that runs around 160 gallons per hour. Obviously it would require testing, but my thinking is that if it'll cool 170 gallons by 10 degrees and 100 gallons by 30 degrees that it would cool 1-2 gallons by 70 degrees. If the pump is capable of doing this within a couple of minutes, then it might be worthwhile. If the cooler is able to keep the temp down, the heater core is proven to be able to change temps in a vehicle by as much as 80 degrees. It may not work, but it'll be worth trying. 

The only thing I really see as a problem at this point is the size of the cooling device.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Ok at this time I need to insert a caveat: How many BTU's are needed to chill 100 gallons to whatever temperature you need? Divide that by the time to get to that temp and you get BTU per time period heat removal capacity. Now lets go with, say, 1200 BTU per hour for 10 degree drop in the car. If you have better numbers, then substitute them, please.

Question: is the BTU of the unit bigger than the car requirements. If yes, then do it. If no, well.....that is why Engineers have external erasers on their pencils.

I have no doubt that 100 gallons of cold water will do the trick. probably a 10 gallon pail with an ice helper is better. I may even do this myself. This is an interesting experiment that I get to observe; and most importantly, do not have to pay for.


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

Telco said:


> These coolers are designed to cool over 100 gallons and are supposed to be used with a pump that runs around 160 gallons per hour. Obviously it would require testing, but my thinking is that if it'll cool 170 gallons by 10 degrees and 100 gallons by 30 degrees that it would cool 1-2 gallons by 70 degrees. If the pump is capable of doing this within a couple of minutes, then it might be worthwhile. If the cooler is able to keep the temp down, the heater core is proven to be able to change temps in a vehicle by as much as 80 degrees. It may not work, but it'll be worth trying.
> 
> The only thing I really see as a problem at this point is the size of the cooling device.


One problem here is that you are focusing on the cooling of water and not applying the real application which is the heater core, BTW have you calculated the actual size of the heat exchanger that you will need?


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Piotrsko - Sorry, but I have no idea on how many BTUs we are exchanging. I'm also not looking at using 100 gallons as a cooling medium. That would take all day and would have to be plugged in. The cooler I was looking at is supposed to be able to drop the water temperature 10 degrees on 170 gallons or 30 degrees on 100 gallons. 100 gallons of water is quite a bit, and to take 30 degrees out of it in a short period of time is pretty impressive. The sales site didn't post exactly what a short period of time is. My thinking here is to use the minimum amount of water to fill the system, so we'd have enough for the chiller, the hoses, and the heater core with no reserve. At most, we'd be looking at 5 gallons and probably closer to 2-3 gallons total. If the cooler can take 10 degrees from 170 gallons and 30 from 100, I would think it would be good for a 50 degree drop on 40 gallons, a 70 degree drop on 20 gallons, and an 80 degree drop on 5 gallons. This is a drop from ambient temps, or whatever the outside temp is. The most the water could be expected to be heated to is 140 degrees on the hottest day. The hottest day I ever have to deal with is 110 degrees. An 80 degree drop would put the water temp at 30 degrees. If the cooler can knock 80 degrees out of 5 gallons in 10 minutes or less, then it will be effective as if it can do this in 10 minutes then it can maintain it once it's there.

Wild - No, I've not calculated the size out. However, GM has. The heater core is roughly the same size as the air conditioner core. Since they are the same size, they should both be able to cool the interior by the same amount provided the water can be sufficiently cooled. This puts the problem back to the water chiller. 

In fact, it may be possible to use the AC core as the water cooling core if the AC core were either cleaned out or replaced. They are made of aluminum, and the cooling water would need to have antifreeze which has agents to protect aluminum. Going at it this way would also allow the AC to perform its wintertime duty of dehumidifying the air to keep the glass from fogging up. 

I have figured out a simple test for the system. All I'll need is a water chiller and pump, some hose, an old heater core, a small fan, and a hot day. I can set the chiller up in my truck with the heater core set inside the cabin attached to the fan and everything turned off. Then when the heat of the day is on the truck, turn the works on and see how long it takes to cool the interior down. If it works, we'll have something. If not, I'm out a few bucks and we'll all know FOR CERTAIN that it wouldn't work.

To everyone - I'm not a one trick pony.  If this idea doesn't work, I have another one already in the works that I'm researching through another non-EV site. More on that another time.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Telco the thing to consider for the aquarium cooler is how much time it takes to cool it down. Don't know where you live, if in Chicago or Alaska it may help somewhat. I honestly think it's a waste of time and money. If you could cool a car with less than 300 watts, you could cool a house for maybe 1000 watts. It takes about that much power just to run the blower in the air handler under your house just to circulate the air. Just my .02 worth as I hate to see anyone needlessly waste money but I suppose most of us have done it some way or another in our EV's. Oh well. Just something to consider...

Re the aircraft cooler with the mini compressors, that would definitely help but don't know if it would be sufficient. He said it would cool 20 degrees F cooler than the ambient temp which would be adequate but still may be uncomfortable if it's 100F outside. Maybe with a little larger system, a fourth compressor, larger coils etc it would be ideal.


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## Wild (Aug 19, 2011)

ElectriCar said:


> Telco the thing to consider for the aquarium cooler is how much time it takes to cool it down. Don't know where you live, if in Chicago or Alaska it may help somewhat. I honestly think it's a waste of time and money. If you could cool a car with less than 300 watts, you could cool a house for maybe 1000 watts. It takes about that much power just to run the blower in the air handler under your house just to circulate the air. Just my .02 worth as I hate to see anyone needlessly waste money but I suppose most of us have done it some way or another in our EV's. Oh well. Just something to consider...
> 
> Re the aircraft cooler with the mini compressors, that would definitely help but don't know if it would be sufficient. He said it would cool 20 degrees F cooler than the ambient temp which would be adequate but still may be uncomfortable if it's 100F outside. Maybe with a little larger system, a fourth compressor, larger coils etc it would be ideal.


The flaw with this aquarium cooler concept will be quickly realized on the first hot humid day. Without an effective way to reduce humidity the cabin will be a rolling sauna.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Wild said:


> The flaw with this aquarium cooler concept will be quickly realized on the first hot humid day. Without an effective way to reduce humidity the cabin will be a rolling sauna.


Almost any non-evaporative cooler works off compression, which naturally reduces humidity.


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## bilalkhann (Mar 27, 2013)

Here is a food for thought. What if you can use a same chiller up the size of from 1 gallon to 10 or 20 gallons. Use copper or silver small net of tubes and install it under the roof and regular a/c vent.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Here is some food for thought....

It take about 15000 btu's to cool down the average small car.


Roy


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> It take about 15000 btu's to cool down the average small car.


So 50 pounds of compressed CO2 vented through the evaporator should do the trick?


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## andrewlobel (Feb 9, 2016)

bilalkhann said:


> Here is a food for thought. What if you can use a same chiller up the size of from 1 gallon to 10 or 20 gallons. Use copper or silver small net of tubes and install it under the roof and regular a/c vent.


It's long time to bump it but as far as i am concerned , coolers are the best alternatives to the air conditioning. You must have one cooler in your home if your ac trouble shoots or having problems.


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## ferd (Dec 1, 2015)

“Some folks may just stop with the first possible solution; others will continue to look for better solutions. Those that are always naysaying new ideas, makes you wonder why they bother to be on sites such as this.”

I wouldn’t assume that naysayers are against new ideas or improvements. I suspect they’ve got experience that indicates problems, and they’re trying to redirect your efforts to save you time and / or money and / or frustration. You don’t have to listen to them, but carrying on due to pride can be futile. I don’t like people telling me I can’t do something, but I pay attention to criticism as part of my feasibility research.

If you really want to break new ground, check out thermoacoustic cooling. We experimented with it a little (with no success), but I admit our effort was dodgy and you might be able to do better.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

The problem with many of the so called new ideas, is that they really dont work too well. For the record I do air conditioning and refrigeration for a living, so I'm very familiar with the subject.

Now cooling an electric vehicle is a bit easier because you dont have the heat of an ice engine in front, to heat up the cabin. But never the less you have x amount of heat entering the cabin, depending where you live.

The word cooling is also kind of a misnomer. The actual process is "heat removal", your moving the heat from one area, and discharging it away from the area your in, this also works in both directions in case of heating (heat pump). 

Using ice in some way has several problems. If your using ice directly as a cooling agent, it will introduce moisture (humidity), depending on where you live, this may not be a problem, but never the less, not a good idea since you cant control the amount. Also since the ice is laying in a cooler (as being promoted), the surface area of the ice is not being used fully. If such an idea is contemplated, it would be much more efficient if it was an ice water mix, and the water used as a medium for heat removal via a coil (evaporator), the problem is, the coil would have to be much larger then a normal refrigeration coil, this may not be practical in a vehicle for obvious reasons.

So the best way to cool the vehicle is what you see used today, there is really nothing better around, cause if there was, we would see it used.

Stick with what is known to work, or open your windows <grin>.

Roy


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> So again let me repeat, either use a three phase dc comprsssor, or use a regular automotive compressor belted to the motor, there are no other solutions at this point in time.


Perhaps driving the compressor off an axle could be slightly more economical?

And if going custom, one may as well go with a smaller lighter compressor and condenser scavenged from a Smart Car or something, unless the stock components in the car are already compact enough.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Matej said:


> Perhaps driving the compressor off an axle could be slightly more economical?
> 
> And if going custom, one may as well go with a smaller lighter compressor and condenser scavenged from a Smart Car or something, unless the stock components in the car are already compact enough.


It takes x amount of hp to run the compressor, it doesn't care where you get it from, it will take the same amount of hp. Not to mention if you sit idle in traffic, that's the time you will really need it. So bite the bullet and just either install an electric or mechanical compressor and.....

stay cool

Roy


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> It takes x amount of hp to run the compressor, it doesn't care where you get it from, it will take the same amount of hp.


Only use it when coasting or slowing down, instead of regenerative breaking.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Matej said:


> Only use it when coasting or slowing down, instead of regenerative breaking.


You can lead a horse to water....


But you cant makem drink it.

Roy


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## Matej (Dec 4, 2015)

It was but a joke.


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