# [EVDL] more 120v vs less 240v for workplace charging?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

hi all -

your opinions welcome on this.

as an "early adopter," my wife's company is asking our advice on what they
should go for when installing charging stations in their new office. We
have a converted little italian convertible and are planning on doing an old
Prius PHEV soon.

they are loosely planning on 5 stations total, and the 2 frontrunners right
now are the Blink/Ecotality chargers (single 240v j-1772) or the quad
Shorepower stations with 4 120v nema 5-20R plugs per station.

It's a wind energy company with several hundred employees.

I'm thinking even with j-1772 becoming the new standard, I'd really like to
see them put in the old 120v models.

I'm rationalizing this based on my experience - I have access to both a 120v
(an exposed plug "out back" of the building) and a 240v blink charger here
at work, and I typically use the 120v simply because I work an 8-9 hour day
and it's totally fine to sip the juice off of that. Never had any problems,
only need to put it on at 7-8 amps from my variable charger and I'm full up
when I leave.

I know I could charge in half the time from the Blink, but it requires an
expensive j-1772 adapter, i have to fight with the Leafs here at work over
it, and there's no advantage to being fully charged by lunchtime. Honestly,
I could probably crank up and pull just under 15A off of the 120v if I were
really needing to make a long lunch run and I'd probably be just fine.

So it seems to me that having 20 120v plugs total trumps 5 240v plugs,
especially at a company where I'm predicting they'd quickly outgrow the 5.
plus, the shorepower quad stations are easily upgradable to j-1772 later if
needbe.

http://www.shorepower.com/komfortkits.html

what do ya'll think? maybe I'll recommend 1 240v model and the rest 120
just to have the option.

thanks
-j
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd recommend them all be 240v J1772 chargers. Don't make them upgrade or
use old technology! Charging off of 120v is just too slow, and not worth the
energy of installing (IMHO).

Our policy at my work (AAPL) is move your car when it is done charging. The
Columb Technology chargpoint chargers will text me when my car is done. I
kindly move it, and someone else takes my spot. There are *lots* of EVs here
now that the Leafs have come out. Before them, I was just fighting a few
Teslas for charging stations. Now, the Leafs and Volts are out there too.

I think we have 8'ish spots under Infinite Loop which are 3 outlets each
spot: 50amp 240v, 30amp 240v and a regular 120v. Then there are two J1772s
outside in another building I'm at, and another 2 in a parking garage
nearby.

Sure, you have to buy an adapter, but it is worth it (thanks Rush! I'm using
it daily now...)

corbin



> J Bills <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > hi all -
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> J Bills wrote:
> > So it seems to me that having 20 120v plugs total trumps 5 240v plugs,
> > especially at a company where I'm predicting they'd quickly outgrow the 5.
> > plus, the shorepower quad stations are easily upgradable to j-1772 later if
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> corbin dunn wrote:
> > I'd recommend them all be 240v J1772 chargers. Don't make them upgrade or
> > use old technology! Charging off of 120v is just too slow, and not worth the
> > energy of installing (IMHO).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Christopher Zach <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > corbin dunn wrote:
> > > I'd recommend them all be 240v J1772 chargers. Don't make them upgrade or
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> J Bills wrote:
> 
> > what do ya'll think? maybe I'll recommend 1 240v model and the rest 120
> > just to have the option.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Before I would proceed, I would want to know the total kilowatts 
being available for EV charging:
Five 240VAC 40A breakers or twenty 120VAC 20A breakers is 48kW.

Then I would want to know what types of vehicles are using the EVSE:
>From what you posted I gather there could be a mix of ~50 mile-range-
packs (conversion EVs, pih, +) and 100 mile-range-packs (production
EVs: Leaf, Focus, +)

Next, I would want to know how long are employees typically at work:
assumption 8 hours.

Also, is there any level2 EVSE nearby? (ones shown on an EV finder 
site like 
http://www.recargo.com/search

If you know the type of networked EVSE already in place that helps in 
deciding what networked EVSE you might put in. Each networked EVSE 
might have its own rfid card to enable it. It is a bit like having to 
carry several different types of credit cards because they are not 
accepted everywhere (visa, master', discovr', amx', etc.). Coulomb 
EVSE would require a different rfid card than a Blink EVSE, etc. 

My thinking is if the EVSE is going to be installed in a parking 
garage type of environment, a low cost level2 home J1772 EVSE and 
some level 1 outlets would suffice.

50 mile or less range packs (PbSO4 conversion EVs, pih like the Volt 
pish, etc.) or 100 mile range packs that are not that discharged, 
would be asked to use the level 1 EVSE.

A 120VAC 20A breakered circuit proves 80% by electrician code or 16A,
or ~1.9kW and over 8 hours is about 15.3kW. That should be more than 
enough for those vehicles.


The 100 mile range pack vehicles that come into work below 50% SOC 
would use the Level2 charging.

There is some nice flexibility with today's J1772 EVSE. You can set 
them to tell the vehicle's on-board charger to only draw as if on a: 
15, 20, 30, 40A or higher breaker. Since many of today's Production 
EVs only have a half powered on-board charger of 3.3kW, then instead 
of making each level2 EVSE connected to a 40A breaker, you could have 
twice as many each using a 204VAC 20A breaker. After 8 hours, that 
would pump about 30.7kW back into their 100 mile pack. That should be
more than enough for those vehicles.

In the near future, Leaf EVs made in the U.S.A. and the Focus 
Electrics will have a full powered on-board charger. Those vehicles 
could use the full power of a 240VAC 40A breakered circuit.

The DoE funding is for EVSE that is networked that can feed usage 
information back through the EVSE network to energy.gov (anonymous 
and transparent to the driver) but a networked EVSE cost more and 
there is a monthly networking fee associated with it.

All the whiz-bang EVSE out there is not really necessary depending on 
the environment (parking garage, open parking lot, ?), and how much 
you want to have the government cover (Coulomb, Blink, AeroVironment,
?). 

The biggest advantage to this networked EVSE is your company gets 
actual usage data (something Costco is unwilling to seek), and if you 
have the RV/street-urchin crowd (like here) that like to squat and 
plug into regular outlets, those EVSE would lock them out. 


If your wife's company does not want to count beans, and you do not 
have the above moochers, an inexpensive 5-20r gfci dual outlet works 
fine for level 1 charging:
http://img3.prosperent.com/images/250x250/www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/1/Lev10500023c.jpg
http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-pa-creekside-inn-20110422-004-m.jpg

And less expensive non-networked home EVSE. See
http://evdl.org/archive/#nabble-td3276396

Also, EVSE usually has to be installed by an EVSE certified 
Electrician and you may need city permits read
http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessories/aerovironment-evse-rs


My example is of the prestigious Stanford Shopping Center covered 
parking using inexpensive AeroViroment home level2 EVSE on a 20A 
breaker (rich shopping center went on the cheap EVSE)
http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-stanford-shopping-20110604-002-m.jpg
http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-stanford-shopping-20110604-001-m.jpg
http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-stanford-shopping-20110604-003-m.jpg

http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-rwc-bwalkauto-20110421-001-m.jpg
An AreoViroment EVSE rebadged with Nissan's name on it at a Nissan 
Dealership connected to a 240VAC 20A breakered circuit.


Off the top of my head, your EVSE configuration could be:

One level2 EVSE on a 240VAC 40A breakered circuit (for the 2012+ 
vehicles with a 7.7kW on-board charger and 100 mile pack) [9.6kW]
http://brucedp11.150m.com/evse11/evse-ct2102-20110422-001-m.jpg

Five level2 EVSE on a 240VAC 20A breakered circuit (for the 2011 or 
older vehicles a 3.3kW on-board charger and 100 mile pack) [24kW]

Six level1 EVSE on a 120VAC 20A breakered circuit (for the 50 mile 
range packs). 
[14.4kW]

You may not want to install it all now. Perhaps only 150% of your 
current need. But create a total layout plan, and build out as 
needed. I strongly suggest that you require all electrical conduit be 
gauged/sized to carry the 240VAC 40A wiring even though it is only 
carrying lower currents and voltages. The up front cost will be a 
little more, but the long term growth and change out will cost less 
as new conduit will not have to be put in, only new wiring pulled and
a new EVSE wired.


Let us know what your mix will be.


{brucedp.150m.com}



----- Original message -----
From: "J Bills" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:13:42 -0700
Subject: [EVDL] more 120v vs less 240v for workplace charging?

hi all -

your opinions welcome on this.

as an "early adopter," my wife's company is asking our advice on what they
should go for when installing charging stations in their new office. We
have a converted little italian convertible and are planning on doing an old
Prius PHEV soon.

they are loosely planning on 5 stations total, and the 2 frontrunners right
now are the Blink/Ecotality chargers (single 240v j-1772) or the quad
Shorepower stations with 4 120v nema 5-20R plugs per station.

It's a wind energy company with several hundred employees.

I'm thinking even with j-1772 becoming the new standard, I'd really like to
see them put in the old 120v models.

I'm rationalizing this based on my experience - I have access to both a 120v
(an exposed plug "out back" of the building) and a 240v blink charger here
at work, and I typically use the 120v simply because I work an 8-9 hour day
and it's totally fine to sip the juice off of that. Never had any problems,
only need to put it on at 7-8 amps from my variable charger and I'm full up
when I leave.

I know I could charge in half the time from the Blink, but it requires an
expensive j-1772 adapter, i have to fight with the Leafs here at work over
it, and there's no advantage to being fully charged by lunchtime. Honestly,
I could probably crank up and pull just under 15A off of the 120v if I were
really needing to make a long lunch run and I'd probably be just fine.

So it seems to me that having 20 120v plugs total trumps 5 240v plugs,
especially at a company where I'm predicting they'd quickly outgrow the 5.
plus, the shorepower quad stations are easily upgradable to j-1772 later if
needbe.

http://www.shorepower.com/komfortkits.html

what do ya'll think? maybe I'll recommend 1 240v model and the rest 120
just to have the option.

thanks
-j


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

(Sigh) Why go to all the expense of a OTT solution when a you can just 
use a standard 240V socket? If I were asked the same question for a 
UK scenario I would recommend a standard 13A weatherproof socket (with 
built in GFC/RCD like this one ... http://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-2g-rcd-skt-ip55/38123 
). They provide enough power for a good 50 mile charge over 8 hours 
and are cheap enough to have plenty installed so you don't have to 
fanny about playing musical cars all day long. I gather your RV 
(camper -caravan) sockets would be the nearest equivalent.

I'm guessing there is a simple J1772 to standard plug converter out 
there if you have a Leaf etc??

Lets get some cheap, simple charging facilities out there to encourage 
people to buy EVs and worry about the high tech (high cost) chargers 
later.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk





> J Bills wrote:
> 
> > hi all -
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin is right, the use of less expensive receptacles is a solution 
that is not OTT
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OTT

Instead of a J1772 EVSE connected to a 240VAC 40A breakered circuit,
a 14-50 receptacle would work fine.

Instead of five J1772 EVSE's connected to a 240VAC 20A breakered 
circuits, five 6-20 receptacles would work fine.


Leviton even offers a 5842 dual (or combination) receptacle that has 
a 6-20 and a 5-20 in the same package. A twofer if you will, 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/twofer
cutting the receptacle costs even more. These could be equally spaced
at every other parking spot.

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_971.htm
See item 12

http://www.buy-leviton.com/LevitonProducts/5-20R-Duplex-Receptacle-Commercial-Brown.asp
See item 5

http://www.onestopbuy.com/Duplex-%28Best%29-12212.asp
5842-I comes in ivory color

That would be the simplest and lowest cost solution to install power
for the electrical power wanted.

And that would have been acceptable in the U.S. before the 1990's. But 
the U.S. Industry conventions of the 1990's that the U.S. Automobile 
and Oil Companies dominated, put in place U.S. laws and regulations 
that defined an EV parking spot to have and use the legally allowed 
level2 EVSE of the time: conductive Avcon, inductive SPI.

Level1 was the exception as regular 5-20 outlets could be installed 
and used as is.

Today, it is out with the old level2 EVSE and in with the new level2
EVSE that uses the J1772 coupler. A designated EV parking spot with 
proper spot/space painting and signage with level2 power, has to use 
today's EVSE.


There is another reason receptacles would not be conducive to 
encouraging EV purchases and use: laziness. One connector, less 
thinking on the driver's side (even a child can do it, 
marketing/thinking).

I gleefully took possession of my S-10 Blazer EV from the EV converter 
in 1992 before there was public EVSE. There were just outlets. Once I 
secured permissions to access them, there was a wide range of types I
had to adapt to. I carried in my back seat a gym bag that had 1ft 
pig-tail adapter cables pre-built up of the most commonly found 
receptacles, and a loose selection of components to be able to build 
up whatever adapter I would need. The types of receptacles were:

http://www.elecordset.com/prodimages/NEMATwistChart.png
Twist-Locks

http://www.elecordset.com/prodimages/NEMAStraightChart1.png
Straight-Blade

While I, being an admitted "EV-Charging-Nut", did not mind lugging 
around a full gym bag of electrical components to be able to adapt to
whatever ...

Most people considering the purchase and driving of an EV/pih would 
not want to have to adapt to anything. For them the less effort the 
better. They want the $30+k vehicle they drive to: feed them, burp 
them, and say how great they smell while their diaper is being
changed. 


Unless 'J' were to only install level1 5-20r receptacles, designated 
signed and painted EV parking spots in the U.S. have to follow the 
U.S. laws and regulations on level2 EVSE installations.



{brucedp.150m.com}



----- Original message -----
From: "Martin WINLOW" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:48 +0100
Subject: Re: [EVDL] more 120v vs less 240v for workplace charging?

(Sigh) Why go to all the expense of a OTT solution when a you can just 
use a standard 240V socket? If I were asked the same question for a 
UK scenario I would recommend a standard 13A weatherproof socket (with 
built in GFC/RCD like this one ...
http://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-2g-rcd-skt-ip55/38123 
). They provide enough power for a good 50 mile charge over 8 hours 
and are cheap enough to have plenty installed so you don't have to 
fanny about playing musical cars all day long. I gather your RV 
(camper -caravan) sockets would be the nearest equivalent.

I'm guessing there is a simple J1772 to standard plug converter out 
there if you have a Leaf etc??

Lets get some cheap, simple charging facilities out there to encourage 
people to buy EVs and worry about the high tech (high cost) chargers 
later.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk
-


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

" A twofer if you will" - Ahh, the good old BOGOF (buy one, get one 
free)! MW



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Martin,

We are actively deploying low cost and simple systems in the UK. We are a UK
Registered charity and have donated hardware to 40 sites in the UK with the
goal of donating 1000 in the next 12 months;

http://www.zerocarbonworld.org/charging-station-map

I would like to discuss this project with you.

All the best,

Kevin Sharpe | Founder & Chair of Trustees
Zero Carbon World - be the change you want to see...
Tel: +44 122 586 9439 | Mobile: +44 795 836 7914 | Skype: zerocarbonworld
[email protected] | www.zerocarbonworld.org |
twitter.com/zerocarbonworld

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