# Will Gasoline Price Drop Kill Electric Cars... Again?



## brandon0409 (Sep 26, 2008)

The problem with that statement is that gas prices are still extremely high even though they have dropped a little bit.

Of course did we forget that only a few months ago, gas prices were where they are right now, then all of the sudden spiked up to almost $5/gal. Then came back dow.

It's amazing how we have been conditioned to now think that $3.00/gal is cheap.


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## jb_elec (Sep 9, 2008)

Anyone with forethought knows that any drop in gas prices is temporary. It is only a matter of time before prices rebound and people will think $4 gas is normal again. I don't think it will take very long. I'd say by next summer the prices will skyrocket again as they did this year.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

jb_elec said:


> Anyone with forethought knows that any drop in gas prices is temporary. It is only a matter of time before prices rebound and people will think $4 gas is normal again. I don't think it will take very long. I'd say by next summer the prices will skyrocket again as they did this year.


They didn't "know" this in the 90s when the EV1 withered on the vine and SUV sales were soaring.


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

I believe that gas prices going down is brought on by all the talk of alternative energy. The Bush boys and OPEC dont want large investments into alternative energy just yet so along with slowing of the economy the lower demand on fuel is a temporary thing. I for one am not fooled by this minipulation of the fuel prices and firmly believe that it will raise again as soon as the demand raises. Homey dont play that game. I still believe that energy independance is the solution to the war on terror. If we dont have to do business with these fools than they dont have a hold over us. This is just my opinion.

R Agee


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## oldtimer (Jul 30, 2008)

Why do you blame Bush? The democrats have controlled both houses of congress for over 2 years now and counting. I do agree OPEC will raise prices as soon as current economic crisis is over. I'm keeping the "for sale" signs on my SUV.


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## Gavin1977 (Sep 2, 2008)

brandon0409 said:


> The problem with that statement is that gas prices are still extremely high even though they have dropped a little bit.
> 
> Of course did we forget that only a few months ago, gas prices were where they are right now, then all of the sudden spiked up to almost $5/gal. Then came back dow.
> 
> It's amazing how we have been conditioned to now think that $3.00/gal is cheap.


It is cheap. Over here we pay more like 9$ a gallon


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

> Why do you blame Bush? The democrats have controlled both houses of congress for over 2 years now and counting. I do agree OPEC will raise prices as soon as current economic crisis is over. I'm keeping the "for sale" signs on my SUV.


Because Bush and Cheney are tied to big oil. The Dems have been in control of congress for 2 years but not with enough votes to stop the Repubs from fighting everything that comes across the floor. But dont get me wrong I think that all of them act like a bunch of 2 year olds and its time we told them so and booted their ass out on the street. Quit fighting and start getting some work done. 



> It is cheap. Over here we pay more like 9$ a gallon


Gav that is exactly my point. I think the US has been sheltered from this for quite some time now. When it gets that high here just amagine what it will be there. Thats just wrong.

R Agee


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## oldtimer (Jul 30, 2008)

you miss my point. As long as voters play the "blame game" it will be business as usual for all politicians. Name me a Democrat or Republican congressman or senator who is not a millionaire or billionaire? Look at the millions spent for them to achieve an office that pays low 6 figures and has to be re-earned every two to four years. Where do you think that money comes from?


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

saab96 said:


> They didn't "know" this in the 90s when the EV1 withered on the vine and SUV sales were soaring.



I respectfully disagree. When the EV-1 line was cancelled, none of the customers who were currently on the leasing program were allowed to simply BUY thier cars-even though most of them were pleased with the product and made the offer. While the EV-1 was not a roaring success compared to ICE sales, allowing the current customers to keep and payoff thier vehicles would have been far less costly than ripping them out of the owner's hands and destroying them...far less of a PR fiasco as well.

I'm afraid the GM recall of the EV-1 smacks more of deliberate Market manipulation than anything else-claiming a loss on a brand new product(which like most new products require time to reap profits) is one thing, but denying customers the right to choose by making sure even the used EV-1s will never be available...that shows nothing but contempt for the consumer.

It's the old Wal-mart/Microsoft/Big Oil Monopoly dance-crush all competition and set yourself up as the Only Game in Town, and you don't have to listen to your customer base in the slightest, they will buy because they have no choice. Why listen to the Market when you can shape the Market?

Of course, that's why I (and a great many of my neighbors) now purchase our clothing at Consignment Shops, our power tools at Flea Markets, our Groceries at Produce Stands and our computers off Craigslist and Ebay-not to mention my hanging out Onsite to try and learn how to build my own EV instead of waiting for so bloated Monopolist to-

-hey, where'd this soapbox come from?


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

> you miss my point. As long as voters play the "blame game" it will be business as usual for all politicians. Name me a Democrat or Republican congressman or senator who is not a millionaire or billionaire? Look at the millions spent for them to achieve an office that pays low 6 figures and has to be re-earned every two to four years. Where do you think that money comes from?


No I dont miss your point. I agree 100% with what you are saying. It would be nice to have the ability to go in and fire all of them and then bring so normal working stiffs in but that is not a reality. I'm just saying that with our votes we need to make a statement to these clowns that we expect to get some work done and if you can't get along with one another then you need to be replaced. It took all of those crooked peeps and the big money that is behind them to get us into this mess and it will take all of them and the OUR money behind em to get us out. It is time we started holding them responsible for their actions. 

But to get back on topic I hope that people wont be fooled by this so called Gas price and keep putting pressure on our so called leaders to not stop the quest for alternative energy. The world needs it desperatly.

R Agee


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

ragee said:


> Because Bush and Cheney are tied to big oil.


Yeah, right. They have illuminati magic wands that can raise and lower the price of oil at will. But they don't. Seriously, Bush didn't even know gas was getting expensive. Remember this little gem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9b2MNhgMV4


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## ragee (May 25, 2008)

Bush wasnt smart enough to know he was making money all the time he was promoting huge tax breaks for the oil companies. He has no control of the price and just a little control of the profits. Demand is the price controller. What I would like to know what was the thinking in providing these companies with the tax breaks at the same time that they are making record profits. Who thought of that genius idea. I hope that they continue this way of doing business then maybe people will smarten up and find another way.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

order99 said:


> I'm afraid the GM recall of the EV-1 smacks more of deliberate Market manipulation


WKTEC also indicted the consumer. People tend to ignore that for the sake of having a single scapegoat.



order99 said:


> denying customers the right to choose by making sure even the used EV-1s will never be available...that shows nothing but contempt for the consumer.


Well, the stupidity was that GM killed the EV1 just as gas prices were starting to creep upward. GM had plenty of advanced warning where things were ultimately headed. People's consumer habits didn't really make a sea change until this year, but GM should have known their addiction to SUVs was not sustainable. It's more shortsightedness than conspiracy, and they are paying a dear price for it as people now speculate about their bankruptcy on a daily basis.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Electric cars have never been "Killed"... period.

They've been around longer than ICE cars... period.

They'll still be here long after we've burnt everything we can burn to keep an ICE car going... period.

If anyone thinks that gas prices have "dropped", they're crazy. I still paid "Katrina-esque" pricing for my last tank of gas, and that's after this supposed "price drop."


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Electric cars have never been "Killed"... period.
> 
> They've been around longer than ICE cars... period.
> 
> ...


Amen. I still dont see a 1 as the first digit.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

saab96 said:


> It's more shortsightedness than conspiracy, and they are paying a dear price for it as people now speculate about their bankruptcy on a daily basis.


GM's not going anywhere...
They will get a full run of fed loans with ford here shortly.

If you think they're going anywhere you have much to learn about american politics and american "job" based industries.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

My 2 cents .... OPEC .... they want higher prices, they make higher prices ...

Have the dollar loose strenght again and it will go up ... it's only going to keep going up ...

Over here we pay anywhere from 6USD to 8USD depending on the choice (diesel or gas) and the exchange rate ... 

I figured the monthly bill for our gas usuage last month and it was 268 euros for two of us. Which was pretty bad considering that is about 30 hours of work for either my wife or I ... but it will be getting better. Our new home is going to be 3k (2 miles from my new work), there is a train station close to our home (1k or .6 miles) and my wife is looking to switch to work that is closer to our new home (no more 50k round trip commute to work). Between saving the 250km a week for her and the fact they just started to charge for night street parking where she works (use to be free after 7pm) it's made her job a lot less worth it ....

-Gregg-


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> My 2 cents .... OPEC .... they want higher prices, they make higher prices ...
> 
> Have the dollar loose strenght again and it will go up ... it's only going to keep going up ...
> 
> ...


One wonders how you can afford it if belgium is anything like the other parts of Europe and their 80-90% taxes. 

Feudalism


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## rallyshark (Sep 19, 2008)

Low Gas prices won't kill the electric car unless the economy rebounds and the gas prices don't go back up. Even then, people like the idea of not having to use gas.

I think alot of people have taken the gas price snafu in the past year as gentle reminder that maybe they shouldn't drive an SUV just because they can and that there may come a point when they won't be able to afford to drive an SUV anymore.


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## ISellMiataParts (Sep 24, 2008)

rallyshark said:


> I think alot of people have taken the gas price snafu in the past year as gentle reminder that maybe they shouldn't drive an SUV


WHO. These idiots are buying hybrid escalades!


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

rallyshark said:


> I think alot of people have taken the gas price snafu in the past year as gentle reminder that maybe they shouldn't drive an SUV just because they can


Keep in mind, not every SUV driver on the road is just driving it "because they can". Not everyone can afford multiple vehicles, and/or are not convinced that rental of a larger vehicle is economically viable for the few times they may need it. That 1-passenger Expedition you see going down the road just might be the only car for the family, and may need to carry 8 kids to soccer practice and games multiple times per week. *shrug*

Yeah, I drive a "big wasteful truck" (a 4-cylinder Tacoma that gets about 21 mpg city) but if I didn't have the truck, I'd have nothing to tow my dirt bike, jetski, jeep, etc.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Keep in mind, not every SUV driver on the road is just driving it "because they can".


Ultimately we're all driving "because we can". There is no future in petroleum.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hm, fast growing thread.

I'm not as worried about the drop in the price of gasoline as I am about the economic decline. EVs are still seen as a curiousity at best by most people. A dream that would be nice to reach as a 'some day' goal. If you are out of job and home, somehow I don't think many are likely to pay the price for a plug in prius or GM's volt.

Something to bear in mind is that electric car technology has never been as good as it is now. During the 1970s fuel crisis and the drop in fuel price that followed, EVs were still largely relying on lead acid batteries. We have real options today and many home conversions are out performing OEM EVs of the past.

What you have to look at is just how cheap gasoline would have to get to compete with the operating cost of EVs. Thats pretty dam cheap We're not even close to that and probably will never get there.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

It's laughable that people are so blind and gullible and fall for the Obama lies that it's Bush's fault the economy has tanked, gas prices are high and banks are going broke. It's incredible the ignorance of the American people on the matter. They listen to this guy's lies and regurgitate it like it's truth.

The facts are very much otherwise and when this liar Obama is elected and his cronies take over with their much larger congressional majority (read ability to do whatever they damn well please), his supporters may possibly realize that what he's doing now is dishing out a huge helping of misinformation and is pandering to the ignorant masses.

The facts are that Jimmy Carter, a good hearted American though really misguided democrat, started the Community Reinvestment Act which FORCED banks to loan money to people with marginal credit in decaying neighborhoods. In 1995 Billy Clinton and his congressional democrats expanded the scope of the CRA forcing even more undesirable loans on the banking industry. In fact Obama sued Citi bank for not making enough of these loans. This had the effect of creating a surge in housing demand creating hyper inflation of property values in many areas due to the ease in buying a home. 

RE fuel prices, Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi and friends are and have been for a while, vehemently opposed to offshore drilling and drilling for oil in Anwar. The entire democratic party worked with these two and their opposition to domestic drilling in these places. They and their supporters Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and others have effectively ended drilling in these areas of vast oil reserves that we could have been churning into fuel in these times of apparent peak or declining oil capacity of most oil producing countries.

You take these forced loans to countless people who were able to buy homes with little or NOTHING down, less than desirable credit (sub-prime loans) and throw in a dose of tripling gas prices in 3-4 years and you have a recipe for today's financial meltdown. 

The government created and fueled housing bubble has now burst and housing values therefore are plummeting because people are simply not buying homes. Some are unable to purchase while others are unwilling to. Many who have seen their homes value drop to a fraction of what they owe are walking away from them as well adding to the supply of empty homes.

A significant number of Americans who are living paycheck to paycheck and had bought homes have due to skyrocketing fuel prices, been forced to eat or pay their mortgage. It's not rocket science to see that they aren't going hungry. And you can't blame Bush for that with any credibility. 

By the way, Bush proposed an energy bill with funding for alternative energy as well as provisions for drilling in those banned places but the Democrats and a few Republicans bucked him thus we have no energy policy and little in the way of alternative energy incentives as well.

And BTW, I'm not in McCains camp either. He's another big spender as is Obama and he's pro immigration, pro amnesty so I can't support him either. I'm voting for Bob Barr and to hell with the consequences. I'm sick of voting for the "lesser of evils" and refuse to do it anymore.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Very well said.

And I don't call it "Democrat IC" as there is nothing democratic about these fools.


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## brandon0409 (Sep 26, 2008)

Okay so here's my thought with the EV-1. If I had the option back when they were first leased, I would have found some way to keep the car.

Of course what I would have done if they didn't accept my offer to buy it was to wreck the thing or claim it as stolen and then rip the guts out of it and place it in my own car.

Refrain from filing it with the insurance company so as not to commit insurance fraud. Then just pay them the buy off price.

Of course I would probably never have fallen into the trap of the experimental vehicle lease knowing that it would probably have been redacted in the near future.

Oh well just my thoughts.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> And BTW, I'm not in McCains camp either. He's another big spender as is Obama and he's pro immigration, pro amnesty so I can't support him either. I'm voting for Bob Barr and to hell with the consequences. I'm sick of voting for the "lesser of evils" and refuse to do it anymore.


I'm with you on that one. I was talking to a few coworkers about politics, and out of the 4 people in the room 3 were voting for Barr (the last for Obama). I don't know if it's just who I hang around, but if Libertarians could spend more time/money on campaigning versus getting on the ballot everywhere I think this election would be quite different right now.

And back to the thread topic... I don't mind if GM / Ford / others kill their EV products because gas prices drop. That would give me an opportunity for a couple years of designing / building EVs with no competition then making a killing when the economy/gas prices recover.


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## rallyshark (Sep 19, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> Keep in mind, not every SUV driver on the road is just driving it "because they can". Not everyone can afford multiple vehicles, and/or are not convinced that rental of a larger vehicle is economically viable for the few times they may need it. That 1-passenger Expedition you see going down the road just might be the only car for the family, and may need to carry 8 kids to soccer practice and games multiple times per week. *shrug*
> 
> Yeah, I drive a "big wasteful truck" (a 4-cylinder Tacoma that gets about 21 mpg city) but if I didn't have the truck, I'd have nothing to tow my dirt bike, jetski, jeep, etc.


That's true, but I drive a subaru hatchback and can fit just as much stuff in it as a Lexus hybrid SUV and get better gas mileage and better all weather handling.

I agree that there will always be a place for SUVs in large families and for soccer moms--or utility vehicles to tow boats and hold dirt bikes. 

I have to unconditionally object to individuals driving the hummer h2 though, you can get a bigger vehicle than the h2 with better gas mileage and greater reliability and at a lower cost.

Oh, and the American people are to blame just as much, if not more than the Democrats AND Republicans. Fiscal responsibility isn't limited to only the government. Real americans need to step up and be adults. If you can't afford to buy a house and you can't afford to pay of 15, 000 in credit card debt, don't do spend it. Live within your means.

Yes, sometimes jobs are lost and a person's way of life is turned upside down, I realize this and am not talking about those individuals.

Back to the topic, I agree with ClintK, they can kill the designs if they want, that'll give me time to sell my own version


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Technologic said:


> One wonders how you can afford it if belgium is anything like the other parts of Europe and their 80-90% taxes.
> 
> Feudalism


To tell you the truth, the tax rate isn't that different than when I was in the US (but I must say I never earned a steady wage doing the 9-5 thing as I left the US when I was 19 for Europe.

In Belgium talking about money is for some reason a big "no-no" just like religion ... but I don't care ... I earn 10.75 an hour and have in my hand just under 75% of that ... there are also many possiable 'under the table jobs' here that pay more than what I earn, but you don't have the security of unemployment insurance (even for being injured) which is part of the taxes I pay.

What you don't realize is that I don't have to pay for health insurance living here (that is part of my taxes). I also receive "vacation pay" at the end of the year to have a vacation or trip (or do what I want with it) and after working for a company for a year you get what they call the "13th" month effective one months salary. Effectively you earn in a year your monthly salary x 13.92 (vacation and 13th month added) then they deduct taxes.

Now I know the tax rate can be as high as 55% here, but you also have to realize that most of the people that earn this kind of money have a good accountant who legally "arranges" the earned income around some to make it the most tax advantagous. On paper Belgium is not a weathly country, but in reality there is a lot of money here. There is also a 21% VAT/sales tax on all items (well most things, some are expemt others are more bread, clothing, cigarettes). 

In the end it's really cheaper to work a "McJob" as I like to call them here in Belgium. We all pay into one giant HMO effectivly, so health care costs are lower than the US and just as good (and sometimes better). Plus there are tons of incentives and the like for people .... In the end I wish any country would just do the following:

The country needs X amount of dollards/euros/pounds/whatever a year, we have Y amount of cash earned/transactions an then we have a flat tax rate of Z% ... it's simple and easy. Worried about the poor ... ok, everyone, that is EVERYONE get's the first 25k tax free on what they earn ... your make a lot, you pay the same rate as everyone, but if you are a low earner, you have the minimum of what you need to live and keep the ecomony moving. Now somewhere makes that happen, I'm moving there ...

Back to the topic of the thread ... no gas prices won't kill the electric car ... 

-Gregg-


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> In Belgium talking about money is for some reason a big "no-no" just like religion ... but I don't care ... I earn 10.75 an hour and have in my hand just under 75% of that ... t



Well at 22 with 2 bachelors I make roughly 60,000/yr and have in my hand roughly 85% of that (through deductions of sorts)

That's with a degree in classical studies and philosophy from a top 5 university. After law school I will make anywhere from 125,000-145,000 my first year and roughly 10-20% increase in wage annually.

Currently that tax rate (roughly 75/hr) would leave me with roughly 67% of that wage in my hand (assuming no deductions/write offs which I will undoubtedly create for myself). At 10.75-19.00/hr no one in the USA pays taxes.

And taxes are way too high here.

My health care is 60 dollars per mth will full dental/medical... 80% paid for any surgery and 100% for any emergency. Most dental is 100%.

That's WITHOUT socialism. So roughly that's... about 3 hrs of work a month to avoid 80% increases in taxes.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Gavin1977 said:


> It is cheap. Over here we pay more like 9$ a gallon


It's about $5.50 US/gallon here, where are you based? 
Whoah, it's like talking to myself (my name's also Gavin).


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> To tell you the truth, the tax rate isn't that different than when I was in the US (but I must say I never earned a steady wage doing the 9-5 thing as I left the US when I was 19 for Europe. In Belgium talking about money is for some reason a big "no-no" just like religion ... but I don't care ... I earn 10.75 an hour and have in my hand just under 75% of that ... there are also many possiable 'under the table jobs' here that pay more than what I earn, but you don't have the security of unemployment insurance (even for being injured) which is part of the taxes I pay.
> 
> What you don't realize is that I don't have to pay for health insurance living here (that is part of my taxes). I also receive "vacation pay" at the end of the year to have a vacation or trip (or do what I want with it) and after working for a company for a year you get what they call the "13th" month effective one months salary. Effectively you earn in a year your monthly salary x 13.92 (vacation and 13th month added) then they deduct taxes.
> 
> Now I know the tax rate can be as high as 55% here, but you also have to realize that most of the people that earn this kind of money have a good accountant who legally "arranges" the earned income around some to make it the most tax advantagous. On paper Belgium is not a weathly country, but in reality there is a lot of money here. There is also a 21% VAT/sales tax on all items (well most things, some are expemt others are more bread, clothing, cigarettes).


So, you REALLY only have 59.25% of your take-home pay when you factor in VAT.

In this country you would be considered just at poverty level! :O



> In the end it's really cheaper to work a "McJob" as I like to call them here in Belgium. We all pay into one giant HMO effectivly, so health care costs are lower than the US and just as good (and sometimes better). Plus there are tons of incentives and the like for people .... In the end I wish any country would just do the following:
> 
> The country needs X amount of dollards/euros/pounds/whatever a year, we have Y amount of cash earned/transactions an then we have a flat tax rate of Z% ... it's simple and easy. Worried about the poor ... ok, everyone, that is EVERYONE get's the first 25k tax free on what they earn ... your make a lot, you pay the same rate as everyone, but if you are a low earner, you have the minimum of what you need to live and keep the ecomony moving. Now somewhere makes that happen, I'm moving there ...
> 
> ...


That might be better than you have, but it will never happen.

I think Freedom may be dead in the world now - all of the tax and regulatory policies are aimed at keeping the rich rich and the poor poor.

If you were to design a system which would promote freedom, you would tax sales rather than income / wealth to promote savings and productivity (like the FairTax, which is probably doomed here because it takes power away from government and gives it back to the people) and would make REGULATION "graduated" rather than taxes (making it easier for smaller / newer businesses to compete with the giants).

They aren't making any more gas - electric is inevitable.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Well at 22 with 2 bachelors I make roughly 60,000/yr and have in my hand roughly 85% of that (through deductions of sorts)
> 
> That's with a degree in classical studies and philosophy from a top 5 university. After law school I will make anywhere from 125,000-145,000 my first year and roughly 10-20% increase in wage annually.
> 
> ...


22 and two bachlor degrees ... that is awesome ...

I won't arguee that the taxes are high here (I know they are, but I choose to live here and with it the high taxes). I also don't know what I will get back as I haven't lived here for a full tax year (last year I had only one month of taxable income and even that was at a job that payed partly under the table) ...

I am sure my effective tax rate will be much less than the 25% right now. In fact I am in the process of starting my own business here which I am sure I will be paying much less in effective taxes as I have a good accountant.

In the end I live here because I enjoy the way (most) things work over the US. Plus my passion in life has always been cycling and Belgium is renound for it. What I want to in the cycling world with my business I can only really do here. So I accept what the state has dealt me as far as rules go and I find my way around, through and behind them with a good accountant.

Crazy to think, but I am a huge fan of Ayn Rand and her works/philosophy but still like to live in Belgium (Europe) where socialism does exist. It's not a bad concept, but it lacks incentive to those who produce (ie: make money) ... but that is why Europe has Monoco, Lichtensiten, and Switzerland ... places to hide money .

The best concept I have read on taxes was Ayn Rands view in her book: Capitalizm: The Unknown Ideal ... unfortunatly I don't see that happening any time soon in any country .... so I'm staying where I can do work that will make me excited to get up in the morning (my cycling work, not the "mcjob" I have now at 10+ an hour) ... 

BTW, last time I checked health care coverage in the US, two years ago, it was going to be 147 a month, 2000 deductable on hopsital visits, and a 1 million cap, plus a 30 dollar co-pay ... so at 60 bucks, that is quite a good deal you got there. I know my parents were paying somewhere in the range of 250 a month when my brother and I were on thier plan ...

Oh yea ... a world-wide credit crunch ... not true ... today I was given the green light on the funding for my business here in Belgium, which is not a small sum ... just goes to show you there is money available (either that or the banks just figure they can keep giving out any loan and then pass the loan onto the goverment (ie: taxpayers) when it doesn't go good). In the end I have the funding ... so there's no credit crunch to me 

Anyways ... I'm tired of talking about money and taxes ..... back to lerking about EV info till I can post about my conversion when it happens ...

-Gregg-


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> I think Freedom may be dead in the world now - all of the tax and regulatory policies are aimed at keeping the rich rich and the poor poor.
> 
> If you were to design a system which would promote freedom, you would tax sales rather than income / wealth to promote savings and productivity (like the FairTax, which is probably doomed here because it takes power away from government and gives it back to the people) and would make REGULATION "graduated" rather than taxes (making it easier for smaller / newer businesses to compete with the giants).


Basically the concept of Ayn Rand as I posted in my reply before this one ... I like it a lot, but putting that one into effect would be hard to do, which is why I usually lead with the Flat (income) Tax idea to people (it scares them less than the Flat (VAT/Sales/Monetary) Tax). I think it's easier for them to relate to the taxing of income than purchases ... 

Ok, now really back to EV things, just wanted to comment on that quote as it's something most people should ponder ...


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> 22 and two bachlor degrees ... that is awesome ...


I actually have a masters and another bachelor degree I just finished up this year... but it's in something no one wants to know about... Oceanography.

I'm a fan of Ayn Rand but her view on the subject was far too romantic and idealized. Robert Nozick's "Anarchy, State, and Utopia" is without a doubt the clearest, most well thought out, free market tax system ever (at least that I've encountered in my philosophical readings). Which is why it will never ever be implemented.

By the way, I am a logical positivist and don't ascribe myself to any partisanship.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Back to the topic... Here's my take: 

Intelligent people who don't make a lot of money and manage their money will want electric so as to not be squashed again by high gas prices. 

Not so intelligent people will stick with what they know. 

Poor folks, well they'll do whatever they can afford, regardless of the environment for the most part. 

Many wealthy folks will buy petrol machine because they can afford the fuel and don't want to be inconvenienced with dragging out the cord etc. Just pull in and fillerup. This will change once you can recharge an electric very quickly at a station. 

Those like myself who can afford $4 fuel but love the idea of saving $$$ while minimizing our footprint will drive electric if it's not too inconvenient. If it turns out that battery maintenance, corrosion of connectors etc cause an inordinate amount of maintenance I'll have to dump it if I can't minimize the issues to a manageable level. I'm referring to my homebuilt though. 

At this time I run Amsoil synthetic in my vehicles, home and fleet, so we don't change the oil but every 15000 miles so were already reducing maintenance on the ICE and our environmental impact since Amsoil is factory made and contains no hydrocarbons. Plus it improved our mileage in some if not all vehicles. We gained 10% in a Ford van with the inline 6! 

Those who are very concerned with the environment and can afford to buy or make their EV will persue those avenues. 

The question remains which of the above makes up what % of the population. My kids are all in their 20's and none seem to give a rats ass about recycling, conserving or the future of transportation. They, like most kids their age I suppose are concerned with themselves first and having a good time. Like I was I suppose at that age! 

I just don't think electric vehicles are going to go away. You just can't beat 50 cents to travel 50 miles! And in 5 years or so when storage technology is much improved and hopefully much cheaper, EV's will gain more interest. When you can plug in for 10 minutes and travel 300 miles we'll have arrived with the fuel of the future!


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

The only question is "when," not "if."

Plain old batteries are improving about 10% per year. Not as good as Moore's law, but logic dictates that at some point they surpass petrol.

Nanowire batteries, nanotube capacitors, EEstor - something will occur and then the genie will be out of the bottle.

Bye bye petrol and good riddance.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm hoping EEstor is the real deal and not smoke and mirrors. It's near to market I think.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I'm hoping EEstor is the real deal and not smoke and mirrors. It's near to market I think.


Smoke and mirrors? Nope, just stone and mortar (don't know if it's anything more than that yet)...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> Basically the concept of Ayn Rand as I posted in my reply before this one ... I like it a lot, but putting that one into effect would be hard to do, which is why I usually lead with the Flat (income) Tax idea to people (it scares them less than the Flat (VAT/Sales/Monetary) Tax). I think it's easier for them to relate to the taxing of income than purchases ...
> 
> Ok, now really back to EV things, just wanted to comment on that quote as it's something most people should ponder ...


Funny you should mention her. I saw a guy with a, "Who is John Galt" bumper sticker today and chatted with him at a red light. He was a young fellow, and I told him I had travelled over 900 miles each way one weekend to see her last speech, "Global Balkanization" (which was remarkably prophetic).

I was somewhat astonished that, although he was clearly too young to have been there, he knew the place and much of the content of her talk.

Sadly, I think the greater reality of that talk was that Ayn appeared to be a bitter, lonely old woman.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

I dont think gas prices will kill the electric car. I've been burned too much to trust gas prices. I would have to see 10 years of stable <$1.00 gal. I am midway through a conversion, and once it is finished that is the end of gas for me. I dont care what the price of gas is at that point. Besides I can fill up at $1.30 with electricity at .13c/KwH. Gas would have to be less than .39c to equal electricity, or electricity would have to be $1.22 per KWH to equal gas. Assuming 30MPG gas and 300WH/M. people talk of inconvenience of electric, I plug in my cell phone and car every night. I can fuel up my car at home. I dont have to go driving around to find a gas station walk in, pay in advance, walk out, plug in car, stand and wait, spill, (a flammable and carcinogenic) gas on shoes and hands. drive back to house. I can sit and relax on my couch while my car is "fueling" itself. What is inconvenient about sitting at home? Of course you will miss the social interaction, the panhandler at the front of the station, the @[email protected] you is yelling at you because your at "his" pump, the mugger who jumps you while you are bent over your fill inlet, etc... And las but not least you miss a chance to catch th flu while standing in line to pay with a bunch o coughing people after getting soaked standing in the rain for 10 mins smelling poisonous fumes. I'll take electric thank you.


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## oldtimer (Jul 30, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> I dont think gas prices will kill the electric car. I've been burned too much to trust gas prices. I would have to see 10 years of stable <$1.00 gal. I am midway through a conversion, and once it is finished that is the end of gas for me. I dont care what the price of gas is at that point. Besides I can fill up at $1.30 with electricity at .13c/KwH. Gas would have to be less than .39c to equal electricity, or electricity would have to be $1.22 per KWH to equal gas. Assuming 30MPG gas and 300WH/M. people talk of inconvenience of electric, I plug in my cell phone and car every night. I can fuel up my car at home. I dont have to go driving around to find a gas station walk in, pay in advance, walk out, plug in car, stand and wait, spill, (a flammable and carcinogenic) gas on shoes and hands. drive back to house. I can sit and relax on my couch while my car is "fueling" itself. What is inconvenient about sitting at home? Of course you will miss the social interaction, the panhandler at the front of the station, the @[email protected] you is yelling at you because your at "his" pump, the mugger who jumps you while you are bent over your fill inlet, etc... And las but not least you miss a chance to catch th flu while standing in line to pay with a bunch o coughing people after getting soaked standing in the rain for 10 mins smelling poisonous fumes. I'll take electric thank you.


Great, Bill. Now you are going to cost us our jobs in the pharnaceutical and service industries, especially the much sought after Convenience store clerk jobs! You might well reverse our immigration flow as well!


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

FACTCHECK
"Because Bush and Cheney are tied to big oil." 

The above statement is false.
Bush has a blind trust which may have some oil stocks in a trust he does not control but that attorneys do. Bush has not had anything to do with "BIG OIL" for years more like he stiff the local citizens here with a lousy pro baseball franchise and overpriced stadium facility which is paid out of local money. B4 and during Bush's political career starting with him as govenor he had no "BIG OIL" ties.

Cheney sold all of his interest in Haliburton(Oil Tool & Field Supply)

Exxon Mobil, Valeo, BP, Shell (aka BIG OIL)give campign money to many candidates and political parties. The only "Big Oil" dummies are Hugo Chavez and that whack job in Iran. I hope that oil keeps dropping no matter what I drive (within reason) so Iran, Opec, Saudis, Kuwait, Venuszula, and others start to carry their responsibiltiy in the world.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Funny you should mention her. I saw a guy with a, "Who is John Galt" bumper sticker today and chatted with him at a red light. He was a young fellow, and I told him I had travelled over 900 miles each way one weekend to see her last speech, "Global Balkanization" (which was remarkably prophetic).


lol I would have driven the 900 miles each way as well *sighs*


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