# Evnetics "Big Sol" Coming!



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

This is indeed exciting news!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yep, Big Sol is officially a go. 

Seb and I worked some more on the internal layout this weekend and we managed to compact the equivalent of *8* Soliton Jrs into a box that is only slightly bigger than a Soliton1!

We are only making a very limited number of the racing controller, however - somewhere around 25 total - and then that's it. 

The internal design we came up with for Big Sol is easily extensible in voltage and current, too, so if any our competitors respond to our challenge we will be able to counter them with an even more powerful controller by simply extending it in length. Well, at some point I'll have to use bigger IGBTs, but the basic design is easily extensible (not so easy to assemble as a Jr or a Soliton1, however, so it won't be adopted for our standard product line).

And it will be a _minimum_ of 1MW output...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Interesting. Any foggy ideas of timing yet? What about a price target?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our main products as of now are high power brushed DC motor controllers for electric vehicle applications, the 300kW _Soliton1_ and the 150kW _Soliton Jr_. Upcoming products are the as-yet-unnamed 1MW (!!!) racing controller (tentatively, "Big Sol"), programmable charger and 13.8V output wide-range input dc/dc converter.
> 
> http://www.evnetics.com/


 
One mW is a lot of power. 

Right now, the only commercially available 1mW controller is the EP-2000. It's rated for 1.2 megawatts of peak power, but it air-cooled.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Wow, the things I could do with Big Sol!!! Break my transmission, break my axles, break my coupler, the possibilities are endless!

I'm glad to hear it's actually in the works.
Any info on the voltage/current?

300V and 3300A?
500V and 2000A?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In his latest video Jack Rickard said $7500, 3000 amps peak, 2500 continuous, 360 volts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> In his latest video Jack Rickard said $7500, 3000 amps peak, 2500 continuous, 360 volts.


I think it's 400 volts. The other limits are software enforced - Big Sol is a bad azz monster!  Didn't ya notice that Tesseract put _minimum in_ _italic_? I don't think $7500 is MSRP either; early adopter deal.

How did all this get out ahead of Evnetics making an offical announcement with the correct specs?

Jeff, you guys have a mole! I'm just kidding - don't anyone get their panties in a bunch! 

So a little earthquake can distort the rotation of the planet - you ain't seen nuthin' yet!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Aside from the power rating, NO OTHER SPECS ARE FINAL. 

Will it be rated for...

400V/2500A?
340V/3000A?
425V/3000A?

Who knows, including us, as we have no way of fully testing the operating envelope of Big Sol! A 1MW+ dyno would set us back $100k and believe me that isn't in the budget. Unless you all are cool with us jacking the price per controller to $20k, that is.

And Todd is correct that the $7500 price is only for those who pre-pay for one. After the first prototype is built the price _will_ increase. How much? Well, considering a Big Sol will be more powerful than 3 Soliton1s, a final retail price of $10k seems eminently reasonable. Especially since you can't get an industrial DC drive of this power level for less than $50K. Our stuff is a relative bargain, in other words, and a helluva lot better looking to boot...


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

Wire a few motors together, bolt them to motors used as generators, and wire each generator to massive resistor banks. Boom, one MW Dyno.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

alexcrouse said:


> Wire a few motors together, bolt them to motors used as generators, and wire each generator to massive resistor banks. Boom, one MW Dyno.


Sorry, I don't think so. Windmill 1MW generators are the size of a small schoolbus, and Dissapating 1 MW in Florida, OMG!!! heat the entire town !!

OTOH mushroom cloud if something shorts.


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

I would love this controller, sooo much headroom to keep cranking up the power. Aside from running like 4 motors, any idea on what motor(s) can take this much power for more then a couple seconds before completely melting? Or is it your intention to create a controller with a marketing campaign of "your motor can't handle the Big Sol, no really IT CAN'T"


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

I think the Big Sol would be one hell of a bargain considering that an industrial 1 MW DC drive cost a cool $50,000+ and weighs in at a nice 1000 lbs or so.





> Sorry, I don't think so. Windmill 1MW generators are the size of a small schoolbus, and Dissapating 1 MW in Florida, OMG!!! heat the entire town !!
> 
> OTOH mushroom cloud if something shorts.


Unless it's a high frequency design. Like say 400 or 600 hertz. Then it will be much smaller.  If we are talking about an AC generator going through rectifiers for DC that is. Of course if you mean a DC generator then you are pretty much screwed when it comes to the size.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Has anyone tested a DC motor over 2000A??


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Has anyone tested a DC motor over 2000A??


You mean besides the people who's controller failed short??? Not too many outside of heavy industry, is my guess.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> You mean besides the people who's controller failed short??? Not too many outside of heavy industry, is my guess.


Seems like a loaded answer, hahahahaha

well good luck to you...i'm sure it will be a monster, too bad it will be a limited quantity thing...


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

This will finally allow an EV to have the "Constant Power" that many people seem to think all electric motors have. 

Think about it, with a 300V 500A capable pack you can have:

-500A at 300V
-1000A at 150V
-2000A at 75V
-4000A at 37.5V

A couple of Warp11HV's ought to handle it. 150hp doesn't sound like much until you can have it from 500-5000rpm.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Has anyone tested a DC motor over 2000A??


I had a long conversation with George (Netgain) on this question, after reviewing specs after specs, he feels the 11" should handle the torque if used with spline shafts. Spring 2012, I will let you know, I will be installing two BigSol's on Warp Factor II, one for each motor. 

The motors I will be using are two Netgain's 11" HV's connected in tandem.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I had a long conversation with George (Netgain) on this question, after reviewing specs after specs, he feels the 11" should handle the torque if used with spline shafts. Spring 2012, I will let you know, I will be installing two BigSol's on Warp Factor II, one for each motor.
> 
> The motors I will be using are two Netgain's 11" HV's connected in tandem.


Sounds like you'll also have to install a really beefed up wheelie bar too.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I had a long conversation with George (Netgain) on this question, after reviewing specs after specs, he feels the 11" should handle the torque if used with spline shafts. Spring 2012, I will let you know, I will be installing two BigSol's on Warp Factor II, one for each motor.
> 
> The motors I will be using are two Netgain's 11" HV's connected in tandem.


Jeez Ron, thats going to be insane, we gotta get you on a dyno so we can see some data man!


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Start looking at specs for dynos - I don't think all dyno's are created equal


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

If you get the drive train plumbed up to handle the torque you'll probably destroy the track


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Would that be Top Fuel of electrics?
Are you the guy who said "too much is not enough" ?
Harri


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Warp11HV @ 3000A = ~800ftlbs of torque?? so .....two motors is 1600ftlbs!?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Warp11HV @ 3000A = ~800ftlbs of torque?? so .....two motors is 1600ftlbs!?


At least for a while...

We're probably talking about a current ten times higher than a HV is specified for, ie the S-60-parameter which I cant't find for the WarP 11 HV. Kostovs 11" motors are specified for somewhere 210-250 Amps continuously (depending on model) so an educated guess is that the WarP 11 HV isn't far off from that.

The losses internally in the motor will be at least 100 times higher than at the continuous rating and we know from experience that a series wound motor starts a 4 of July fireworks at the brushes after a few seconds of serious abuse and will blow up pretty soon after that. People racing with a Z2K occasionally lose the race between the quarter mile and entropy, that's part of the game and shit happens, but jacking up the current from 2kA to 3kA will more than double the waste heat internally in the motor...

So what will happen? Well, personally I hope that people will send me logs because zorched motors makes for entertaining log readings...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Spring 2012, I will let you know, I will be installing two BigSol's on Warp Factor II, one for each motor.
> 
> The motors I will be using are two Netgain's 11" HV's connected in tandem.


Ron, what are you trying to do? Have your car stay put and Earth spin under it??? What kind of transmission can take that much torque?

JR


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

All you racers - PLEASE make sure your health insurance is paid up to date!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

I saw a You tube video where a controller was playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on a Tesla coil. It would be neat for Big Sol to produce the asthmatic lion cough of a Rolls Royce Merlin starting up before a run.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Salty9 said:


> I saw a You tube video where a controller was playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on a Tesla coil. It would be neat for Big Sol to produce the asthmatic lion cough of a Rolls Royce Merlin starting up before a run.


Hey, there is the answer to the stupid "EVs must make noise" law!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

PhantomPholly said:


> All you racers - PLEASE make sure your health insurance is paid up to date!


... and put my down as a beneficiary!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

A little update on Big Sol (aka "Soliton3" and "Shiva - Destroyer of Motors")... 

We have a good first pass design for the bus structure and enclosure so we will be cutting copper and aluminum this week. We've been exchanging emails with a few of the people who MIGHT buy this beast and as a result of their comments (and, especially, their log files) we are strongly considering sourcing 1200V components for this controller as an option (ie - allowing a much higher operating voltage at the expense of output current; perhaps ~600V and 2kA, rather than ~400V and 3kA). All we have to do to this design to accommodate this is make sure the creepage, clearance and functional insulation are appropriate for the highest expected operating voltage - easy to do in the beginning, impossible to do afterward.

As previously mentioned, once a prototype has been built the pre-order discount will end. Right now it is still possible to get one of these things - with admittedly nebulous specifications - for $7500 directly from us. After prototyping is underway, who knows, but here is a commercially available industrial DC drive (non-regenerative) that comes *close* to the specs we are aiming for: Parker SSD 1500hp DC Drive.

So, just under $41k... Huh. Kinda puts things into stark perspective, eh?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> ... here is a commercially available industrial DC drive (non-regenerative) that comes *close* to the specs we are aiming for: Parker SSD 1500hp DC Drive.
> 
> So, just under $41k... Huh. Kinda puts things into stark perspective, eh?


Hey Jeff, you guys should go after that industrial market. The "Sol" in Soliton can take a new meaning if you mod it for solar use - ok so more than a simple 'mod' but you get the point. And Parker thinks there's enough market for their DC motor controller and you can kill them in terms of pricing. Then EVs would be that couple hundred units on top of 10K industrial units for other customers 

JR


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> A little update on Big Sol (aka "Soliton3" and "Shiva - Destroyer of Motors")...allowing a much higher operating voltage at the expense of output current; perhaps ~600V and 2kA, rather than ~400V and 3kA.....


Questions...

Could a 600V controller allow for sag-less motor voltage performance (166 3.2V cells @ 2.4V = 400V), so a Warp11HVDC @ 400V & 1000A could really put out 400kw (537hp)??

Additionally if 270V allows for a non-Dual-Comm Warp11HV to spin up to 5100rpm while drawing 1000A (crodrivers), then could a Warp11HVDC with 400V be able to draw 1000A while spinning up to 7,500rpm??

7500$ controller
3500$ motor
11,000$ for 537hp @ 7500rpm!!!!!!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> Questions...
> 
> Could a 600V controller allow for sag-less motor voltage performance (166 3.2V cells @ 2.4V = 400V), so a Warp11HVDC @ 400V & 1000A could really put out 400kw (537hp)??
> 
> ...


you forgot the $$ for the 600v battery pack!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sounds good! I'm not sure about you folks, but my money is going to Evnetics, selling the Harley to buy new controllers and new motors, my business is down 70% and sponsorship funds will not be in til Jan.



Tesseract said:


> A little update on Big Sol (aka "Soliton3" and "Shiva - Destroyer of Motors")...
> 
> We have a good first pass design for the bus structure and enclosure so we will be cutting copper and aluminum this week. We've been exchanging emails with a few of the people who MIGHT buy this beast and as a result of their comments (and, especially, their log files) we are strongly considering sourcing 1200V components for this controller as an option (ie - allowing a much higher operating voltage at the expense of output current; perhaps ~600V and 2kA, rather than ~400V and 3kA). All we have to do to this design to accommodate this is make sure the creepage, clearance and functional insulation are appropriate for the highest expected operating voltage - easy to do in the beginning, impossible to do afterward.
> 
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dladd said:


> you forgot the $$ for the 600v battery pack!


Ron's Haiyin Batteries (each)
3.7V & 6AH (300A cont 400A peak) 
150g, 30$

Proposed pack:
143 cells in series = 600V(@4.2V), 529V(@3.7V), 443V(@3.1V)
4 cells in parallel = 24AH (1200A cont. 1600A peak)
572 cells
$17,200
189 lbs
12.7kwh (@254wh/mile = 50mile range)

7500 = BigSol controller (Pre-Order)
3500 = Warp11HVDC motor
17200 =Haiyin batteries
28,200 = Total


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

7500 = BigSol controller (Pre-Order)
3500 = Warp11HVDC motor
[U said:


> 17200 =Haiyin batteries[/U]
> 28,200 = Total


blowing away anything else electric = priceless


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Anybody else think a 600V Soliton1 sounds like fun?


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> Hey, there is the answer to the stupid "EVs must make noise" law!


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks, yarross. That is great. Even the car at the end is funny.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The 3D cad drawings for the bus structure and enclosure are done. Unsurprisingly, it's a rather big beast: ~27.75" long x ~15.25" wide x ~6.40" tall. We've already received the copper sheet for the bus plates and the aluminum billets should be in later this week. With any luck we'll be cutting metal by Friday (and then we'll have a better idea of how much it will weigh, too).

Attached is one of the 3D renderings.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looks nice Jeff. Looks like you went all liquid cooling. If you don't mind a bit of unsolicited opinion, the mounting feet are a classic engineering feat (pun intended) that people hate in the real world. I know that in principle, and considering the intended usage, they're more than sufficient; and that the engineering data probably supports that. FEA would probably show that it would take doing something really stupid to break or bend one - that's my point! In the real world that something stupid usually happens, eventually. A drop, a extra dose of tightening torque on an uneven surface, etc...

Had a guy bring a loaner ball joint press back to the auto parts store one day. "This $#!+ doesn't work!" The threads on the hardened steel tool were completely mangled. He stuck a 4ft long pipe on his breaker bar and turned, turned, turned. I think we eventually figured out that he was using the wrong adapter and pushing on the steel of the arm, not the ball joint.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ..the mounting feet are a classic engineering feat (pun intended) that people hate in the real world...


No complaining allowed unless you offer an alternative solution!

Seb likes the mounting feet; they have nothing to do with the electrical side of things so I am utterly indifferent to them.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice aluminum chunk!!

Only one bolt per terminal? At this high amp, should it be better to have more smaller bolt (3/8") instead to have one bigger bolt?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> No complaining allowed unless you offer an alternative solution!
> 
> Seb likes the mounting feet; they have nothing to do with the electrical side of things so I am utterly indifferent to them.


No problem there for me.  I can't determine whether the feet are on a base plate, or a part of the larger housing assembly. The counterbored screws around the perimeter of the housing suggest it comes apart, but there appear to be parting lines mid-section, and at the bottom.

In any event, I would try to increase the height of the foot (deeper counterbore) so that it transmits the force into the housing. I would actually also increase the footprint of the feet (pun intended) to allow more section width around the fastener. If it's dropped, ideally you just want it to put a small dent in the outside edge of the foot, along with the complementary gouges and scratches in the housing. If the section width is too small a drop will close the hole, requiring re-drilling the hole, and having even less material around the fastener.

If it's torqued down on an uneven surface you want the person to start to feel uncomfortable about how much they're actually twisting that fastener; and if stupidity still reigns - the fastener to break before the foot moves. Of course, if the mounting foot is on a plate and the housing is separate it can't share the load from over-tightening, so gusseting back down into the plate would be needed. That will distribute the forces back into the plate, so that he/she would actually have to stretch a lot of metal to bend/break the foot.

The extra material there is cheap insurance. It costs very little (weight) to leave it there, and no more in material to have it, as it's already in the billet.

Last note: I would radius the feet into the plate and/or housing. Even a small radius should help.

Feel free to tell me to mind my own business at any time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yabert said:


> Nice aluminum chunk!!
> 
> Only one bolt per terminal? At this high amp, should it be better to have more smaller bolt (3/8") instead to have one bigger bolt?


Look at the contact area, compared to the typical lug. I'll bet the math on that looks nice.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

I would guess that Qer selected the title for the rendering. Shiva - the Destroyer of Worlds


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Related messages quoted together for efficiency...



Yabert said:


> ...
> Only one bolt per terminal? At this high amp, should it be better to have more smaller bolt (3/8") instead to have one bigger bolt?


That very much depends on the clamping force, terminal area and bulk ohmic resistance of the materials. The current design is very simple to turn in a lathe while a multi-hole terminal would have to be CNC milled. Wherever possible we try the simplest solution FIRST and then if that proves insufficient make it more complicated. In this case I'll put "CelsiDots" on the terminals to see if they exceed 85C during operation.




major said:


> ...Tapped holes in brass spell trouble to me. I don't like them on motors either.
> 
> Only one color  Come on Tess. Should be two-tone at least


Yeah, I agree that brass is a bit soft... you didn't suggest an alternative, however, so no cookie for you.

Two tone color, huh? Since it's made of billet 6061 we could anodize it. Blue on top and black on bottom would be pretty cool... Hmmm...

Nothing succeeds like excess, eh?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ...
> In any event, I would try to increase the height of the foot...
> ....
> Last note: I would radius the feet into the plate and/or housing. Even a small radius should help.


Ah, you mainly want us to make the feet bigger. That's reasonable. However, they are already radiused just like on the Jr.




Salty9 said:


> I would guess that Qer selected the title for the rendering. Shiva - the Destroyer of Worlds


Bad guess... I seem to have an odd knack for coming up with names, especially names doomed to be misspelled in the most creative ways (Solartron, Solitrion, Solution, Solton, etc...)

Oh, wait... Seb did come up with name "Soliton3"... bleh.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, I agree that brass is a bit soft... you didn't suggest an alternative, however, so no cookie for you.


 
Major don't give you an alternative, but you have the solution since few years now with the steel male threaded stud.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Major don't give you an alternative, but you have the solution since few years now with the steel male threaded stud.


How would inserting a steel stud into the brass terminal avoid the problem of stripping or galling the threads in the brass? I was asking major to supply a different material to make the terminal out of. Otherwise, we intend to supply studs for the terminals made out of a compatible material.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Ah, you mainly want us to make the feet bigger. That's reasonable. However, they are already radiused just like on the Jr...


Bigger is good too, but I'm mainly thinking integrated; so that the load is shared. More like a hoof than an exposed toe. Like I said though, ignoring my obsession with little details is also a valid option. Giddy-up!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> How would inserting a steel stud into the brass terminal avoid the problem of stripping or galling the threads in the brass?


Well, with this kind of part.
Just a bar with a threaded rod weld/fix inside.

I was under the impression than the terminals of the S1 and SJr was build like this... no??


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Jeff, is that a 6" high Al billet?? Cha-ching! Most people (and CNC machines) wouldn't mind if you attach the stepped piece to the top. That would save you some cutting and raw material cost.

I like the 4 feet/holes you added. It would be nice to have some sort of lip along the base, similar to what you get on car batteries so it can be clamped down on some installations. Or at least more a couple more feet/holes along the length of the case. Being so long, the case might end up hanging one of the ends so something else to attach the middle part might help.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll throw in my 2/0 with no solution, I also thought the feet looked small and vulnerable, considering what this thing might end up weighing. Maybe make them thicker, and add another set in the middle? 
As for the brass, how about silicon bronze? Don't know it's electrical properties.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> I would guess that Qer selected the title for the rendering. Shiva - the Destroyer of Worlds


Na, I was more into the nordic mythology, names like "Ragnarök", "Fenris" or perhaps "Loke"...


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## Salty EV (Jun 8, 2009)

Hey I just want to give a shout out, props to Tess for being so open to suggestions for the development of this controller and supporting to community. Coming from the engineering side, I know how annoying it can get with lots of ideas tossed at you, but Tess is taking it in stride. I know where money is going when I get my next controller, hopefully I can justify the "big sol"


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> In any event, I would try to increase the height of the foot (deeper counterbore) so that it transmits the force into the housing. I would actually also increase the footprint of the feet (pun intended) to allow more section width around the fastener. If it's dropped, ideally you just want it to put a small dent in the outside edge of the foot, along with the complementary gouges and scratches in the housing. If the section width is too small a drop will close the hole, requiring re-drilling the hole, and having even less material around the fastener.


My NZ 2c worth would be to agree that increasing the depth (height) of the foot would make them far more substantial and I would not have the indents either side of the hole 

In regard to the electrical connections, a stud could be made out of hex bar that is left in the brass and spanners could be used top and bottom to get the tightening torque some want although I can't see a problem if the brass is tapped deep enough with a course thread as you would for aluminium?

Very Impressive unit guys!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Chippin' in also....

Bronze is a better solution. There are several grades of Ampco Bronze we (automotive factory) used for tooling.... can't recall the numbers now, but very strong.

As for the mounts... ya, i kinda don't like them also.. and not just because of the thought that they may get damaged. Since I may be the first or one of the first owners of this thing... I think others may have the same issue with size. So... since it is gonna be a chore to stuff it into a car, anything that makes it wider/longer is not really welcome. . If you could encompass the mounts inside the footprint, that would be much better. No chance for damage and easier to fit.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

karlos said:


> My NZ 2c worth would be to agree that increasing the depth (height) of the foot would make them far more substantial and I would not have the indents either side of the hole


This is what I was suggesting, any cookie for me ?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> ...
> Bronze is a better solution. There are several grades of Ampco Bronze we (automotive factory) used for tooling.... can't recall the numbers now, but very strong.


The bronzes are stronger, yes, but their electrical conductivity is 1/3rd that of the brasses and they are about half as thermally conductive.

Anyway, we are using 1.5" brass rod for the terminals because we had it in stock. Perhaps later on we'll change that to 1" or 1.25" diameter copper rod to save a pound or two, but there's plenty of cross-sectional area for the job. 

Otherwise, I don't have much to do with the enclosure design once I've figured out a general internal layout. This division of labor is how we make such kick-ass products in the first place, you know... one guy writes the code (Qer), another guy designs the internal hardware (me) and a third (Seb) designs the enclosures and runs the show. Seb also has a conversion shop - Rebirth Auto - so he has a lot of experience with actually installing and using our controllers. That's another reason our products kick-ass - we actually have lots of experience deploying them in real conversions.



DIYguy said:


> As for the mounts... ya, i kinda don't like them also..


I just found out that the mounts are separate pieces that bolt onto the enclosure, so pretty much all the teeth-gnashing and nail-biting that's been going on here was for naught... 

Anyway, there are also a bunch of threaded holes on the bottom of the enclosure so it seems that Seb already anticipated this problem.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, I agree that brass is a bit soft... you didn't suggest an alternative, however, so no cookie for you.
> 
> Two tone color, huh? Since it's made of billet 6061 we could anodize it. Blue on top and black on bottom would be pretty cool... Hmmm...
> 
> Nothing succeeds like excess, eh?


Really, there's no reason you couldn't use a good Aluminum alloy for the terminals. Solves both strength and weight, and while it isn't quite as conductive as copper should be just fine for the short distance it carries the power.

You could then anodize everything except for the contact area to match.

Edit: Never mind, went back and read some threads about using aluminum. Apparently it's more trouble, which means more money, even though they have successfully used aluminum cables in aircraft.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The bronzes are stronger, yes, but their electrical conductivity is 1/3rd that of the brasses and they are about half as thermally conductive.
> 
> Anyway, we are using 1.5" brass rod for the terminals because we had it in stock. Perhaps later on we'll change that to 1" or 1.25" diameter copper rod to save a pound or two, but there's plenty of cross-sectional area for the job.


There's nothing wrong with brass as long as a course thread is used and the thread depth is longer for the type of material it is;



> The following rules of thumb are suggested for arriving at reasonable lengths of thread for steel screws used with screwed holes in weaker materials.
> For steel a length of thread engagement of at least 1 x Nominal dia's of the thread
> For Cast Iron or brass or bronze the thread engagement should be at least 1,5 x Nominal dia's of the thread
> For Aluminium , zinc or plastices the thread engagement should be at least 2 x Nominal dia's of the thread


http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Thread_Calcs.html


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

What a great thread! Love all this new info. Business is bad in the moving industry so I am selling my Harley to buy two of these controllers, and two of Netgain's new motors. I know I am hooked on the "juice" to be selling my bike, but the future is electric and I love to go FAST!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff, will this be the final measurements? I am redesigning our front deck to fit your controllers. 



Tesseract said:


> The 3D cad drawings for the bus structure and enclosure are done. Unsurprisingly, it's a rather big beast: ~27.75" long x ~15.25" wide x ~6.40" tall. We've already received the copper sheet for the bus plates and the aluminum billets should be in later this week. With any luck we'll be cutting metal by Friday (and then we'll have a better idea of how much it will weigh, too).
> 
> Attached is one of the 3D renderings.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Ha! Gotcha. Now let's shake hands! 



major said:


> Now you went and did it  Tricked me into posting on a Ron thread.
> 
> I thought the alternative was obvious and needed no suggesting. Busbar with though-hole. Like the (dare I say it?) Zilla. Except not so friggin' close together.
> 
> Or....something like the large IGBT modules use. A bent over busbar with thru hole and captive nut below. Except bigger.


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## Taylorcarter (Oct 8, 2011)

seems has good quality


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff, will this be the final measurements? I am redesigning our front deck to fit your controllers.


I hesitate to say anything about this controller is final, but I doubt the dimensions will change significantly from this point.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hey Tess! I don't need cookies........., but a Soliton 1 at half price can be welcome...

Seriously, is it possible to see how is fix the threaded studs on the Soliton 1?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Seriously, is it possible to see how is fix the threaded studs on the Soliton 1?


That's very similar to what we are doing now...

At any rate, we are building the design as shown. Indeed, we are cutting a billet of 6061 for the bottom half of the enclosure right now and it should be finished tonight if we don't suffer any tool crashes...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

This controller will be epic.....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have been cutting lexan and drilling holes in cell tabs all day. As most of you know I am installing two "BigSol's" one for each motor in the Camaro. I have been thinking about battery requirements to support two 3000 amp/ 370V controllers. Both controllers will be fed from one battery pack. I am looking for opinions on safe pack size, amps? volts?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

One pack is a bit less wiring. Two packs, one for each controller, has the advantage you limit the damage somewhat if there is a fault. The controller manufacturer should be able to help you with what the maximum safe limits for voltage are.


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have been cutting lexan and drilling holes in cell tabs all day. As most of you know I am installing two "BigSol's" one for each motor in the Camaro. I have been thinking about battery requirements to support two 3000 amp/ 370V controllers. Both controllers will be fed from one battery pack. I am looking for opinions on safe pack size, amps? volts?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have been cutting lexan and drilling holes in cell tabs all day. As most of you know I am installing two "BigSol's" one for each motor in the Camaro. I have been thinking about battery requirements to support two 3000 amp/ 370V controllers. Both controllers will be fed from one battery pack. I am looking for opinions on safe pack size, amps? volts?


It's a bit premature to be spec'ing out the battery pack... I mean, I have an idea of what the controller will do, but just as no plan survives contact with the enemy, no EV controller schematic survives contact with the dyno. 

That said, series DC motors have a nearly linear relationship between RPM and volts once they are deep into saturation (e.g. - above 200-300A for a WarP-9). For example, the WarP-9 requires 50V/1000 RPM at 1000A. So at 3000A you should expect to need ~150V at the motor just to reach 1000 RPM. That's assuming the motor doesn't zorch, which is not an assumption I'd be willing to stake more than a token $1 on.

A WarP-11HV is going to require a lot more voltage per RPM but it's also going to deliver a lot more torque per amp, too. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact relationship because NetGain hasn't published any dyno graphs for this motor - I imagine that, like us, they simply can't afford a suitably powerful dyno.

So what I am thinking at this point - absent any real world experience with the WarP-11HV - is that it might be better to trade off some current for voltage in Big Sol. The 3000A rating is already a significant derating from the maximum in the expectation that I may have to push the voltage rating above 400V. Can't push the rating much above 400V with 600V IGBTs, but the IGBT modules we are using are also available with a 1200V rating with, theoretically, the same current rating (not possible, however, as the conduction loss is higher; ie - they run hotter for a given amount of current and heat, in the end, determines the real power capability of a controller).

Right now the target is ~400-425V and 2500-3000A. Every spec on this controller is fluid until I write otherwise and that's part of the reason why the pre-order price is so attractive (relatively speaking). After the prototypes are built and tested, the price will go up because we will have eliminated some of the risk in purchasing it (and because we are filthy capitalist pigs - unapologetically, too).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

So to be safe the battery needs to produce 6000 burst amps for the two controllers? or can I get away with less? I need to start building the parallel packs. 



Tesseract said:


> It's a bit premature to be spec'ing out the battery pack... I mean, I have an idea of what the controller will do, but just as no plan survives contact with the enemy, no EV controller schematic survives contact with the dyno.
> 
> That said, series DC motors have a nearly linear relationship between RPM and volts once they are deep into saturation (e.g. - above 200-300A for a WarP-9). For example, the WarP-9 requires 50V/1000 RPM at 1000A. So at 3000A you should expect to need ~150V at the motor just to reach 1000 RPM. That's assuming the motor doesn't zorch, which is not an assumption I'd be willing to stake more than a token $1 on.
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> So to be safe the battery needs to produce 6000 burst amps for the two controllers? or can I get away with less? I need to start building the parallel packs.


That would be safest, yes. You might end up with a big pack, though.

Unfortunately, without more log files from a WarP-11HV (I only have 1 from CroDriver's epic dyno run) I can't really make any firm predictions on pack size for you. If I operate on the assumption that the 11HV is a lot like two WarP-9s in series then I doubt you will see 3kA from the battery pack for more than a 0.1-0.3 seconds and then current will decline steadily until (if) you shift up a gear.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> So to be safe the battery needs to produce 6000 burst amps for the two controllers? or can I get away with less? I need to start building the parallel packs.


Well, if your pack can "only" make 4000 Amps you will still get 6000 motor Amps up to 2/3 pack voltage on the motor side. However, I'm not the EE here but I think the idea with two separate packs has merit when it comes to ripple current and things...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> So to be safe the battery needs to produce 6000 burst amps for the two controllers? or can I get away with less? I need to start building the parallel packs.


if you want to extract the absolute maximum power out of the controllers then you should have more than 6000A burst capacity; since the batteries will sag when drawing 5000A (2500A to each controller) so...400V sags to 320V (20% sag)..

Your Haiyin cells are 3.7V & 6AH (50C or 300A continuous)

So assuming the 400V is the nominal voltage limit not the maximum...that;s 108 in series = 400V nominal
And assuming you want to keep the batteries at 50C, you will need 20 batteries in parallel = 6000A (@67C = 8040A!!!)

so 108 * 20 = 2160 cells (400V * 120A)
48kwh (@300wh/mile = 160 mile range @ 100%DoD)
808lbs
$64,800


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks guys!

I can build the pack for 6000amps, 5000amps or 4000amps, it's a matter of weight control. 

Jeff, how long will I need the 6000amps, will the controllers need a continuous feed of 6000amps or will the "need" drop after a few seconds? This matters when building the pack, I can build the 6000amp pack using the "burst" numbers or build it using the "continuous" numbers.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have just measured our battery boxes, 14P x 6S fits perfect in each box. So, 14 x 300amps = 4200 amps / 14 x 400amps (burst) = 5600 amps. I think this might have to be the design. I was told by the engineers these cells have produced 100C burst/ 600amps = 8400 amps. They will not publish the 100C, they want to stay conservative.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff, how long will I need the 6000amps...


Ever so briefly... Certainly less than 0.5 seconds because as soon as you hit 100% duty cycle (ie - motor voltage is the same as battery voltage) motor/battery current will decline as RPM continues to climb. Note that you will still be accelerating at this point, just with decreasing strength.

Attached is a log file from a Z2K driving two WarP-9 motors in series at full throttle. The wild swings in current in the beginning of the run are typical of a Zilla, but the important thing to note here is that much of the run is spent below 1000A...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

How do you compare the new "BigSol" 3000amp controller to a Zilla 2K? Will your controller behave different?



Tesseract said:


> Ever so briefly... Certainly less than 0.5 seconds because as soon as you hit 100% duty cycle (ie - motor voltage is the same as battery voltage) motor/battery current will decline as RPM continues to climb. Note that you will still be accelerating at this point, just with decreasing strength.
> 
> Attached is a log file from a Z2K driving two WarP-9 motors in series at full throttle. The wild swings in current in the beginning of the run are typical of a Zilla, but the important thing to note here is that much of the run is spent below 1000A...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...Unsurprisingly, *it's a rather big beast*: ~27.75" long x ~15.25" wide x ~6.40" tall...


That's the understatement of the year!  Geez this thing is big! Thanks for posting the dimensions, I have been trying for the last two hours to work a box that size into my CAD mock-up - challenging...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Will your controller behave different?


I can't show you a graph of a Soliton running at 2kA (yet  ) but, yeah.










As you can see the motor current follows throttle pretty closely until about 467 seconds on the graph, where battery current reaches maximum and the controller starts to limit the power to protect the batteries. This is from an early test run of a Soliton 1 but a later version of the software will behave pretty much the same way.

Parts of the code has been rewritten, which affects for example how it dithers at extremely low and high pulse widths, but that doesn't affect the current limits or how motor current tracks throttle input.

There's more graphs to look at in our build thread, including a close up where you can see how the controller regulates current on a 10 ms steps scale.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cool! Thank you. 

I still have a few questions, please excuse my ignorance on how your controllers work. Two controllers feeding from one battery pack:

6000 amps, how many seconds?
5000 amps, how many seconds?
4000 amps, how many seconds?
3000 amps, how many seconds?

I need this time frame answered to build the correct size pack. Please give me your best guess? 



Qer said:


> I can't show you a graph of a Soliton running at 2kA (yet  ) but, yeah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I have a quick question for you to Ron!

Dual Big Sol at 6000A peak: how many seconds for the 1/4 mile? Less than 5 sec.?

Maybe you don't understand how a controller work, but I hope you can understand you will don't need 2500 HP (1920 Kw) from the battery to acheive your goal. (320v x 6000A)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

One thing I can tell you from experience, launching my Camaro at 1500 amps was slow as a pig! Just bringing up the amps to 2000 created a much quicker launch. I know anything over 2000 amps will improve the launch, even 2500 will create a quicker 60'.

My main concern is building a pack that can support both controllers without a huge sag in volts. I want the lightest pack I can build that has just enough amps and volts.



Yabert said:


> I have a quick question for you to Ron!
> 
> Dual Big Sol at 6000A peak: how many seconds for the 1/4 mile? Less than 5 sec.?
> 
> Maybe you don't understand how a controller work, but I hope you can understand you will don't need 2500 HP (1920 Kw) from the battery to acheive your goal. (320v x 6000A)


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

My feelings are with both 3000amp/ 370v controllers with two Warp 11" HV motors and some weight loss, we will achieve low 8's in the 1/4 mile. I am at 10.08 now with two controllers set at 2000amps/ 180v with the car weighing 2650lbs. 



Yabert said:


> I have a quick question for you to Ron!
> 
> Dual Big Sol at 6000A peak: how many seconds for the 1/4 mile? Less than 5 sec.?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Cool! Thank you.
> 
> I still have a few questions, please excuse my ignorance on how your controllers work. Two controllers feeding from one battery pack:
> 
> ...


You should ignore the graph that Qer just posted because it is at a constant RPM and load on our dyno. The graph that I posted is from an actual drag race so it is a much more accurate representation of what your battery pack will have to dish out.

Not to state the obvious here, but the amount of horsepower required increases with speed, so early on in the run (ie - the first 1.5 seconds in the graph I posted) hp is increasing linearly until it reaches some maximum. After that time the hp is maxed out and depends entirely on what the battery pack can dish out (voltage sag at a given current) and what the motor (or motors in this case) can tolerate. Once the controller hits 100% duty cycle it isn't really participating anymore - it is basically along for the ride - so what the above graph tells us is that the battery pack voltage needs to be higher more than anything else.

Remember that the above graph is from a vehicle with two WarP-9s in series - a pretty common setup these days - which behaves a lot like a single WarP-11HV. The main differences are that the torque/amp is a little higher and the RPM/volt is a little lower in the WarP-11HV compared to two WarP-9s in series, which all in all are pretty good tradeoffs. That said, the continuous power capability of the 11HV will definitely be lower than twin WarP-9s but that isn't a big concern for drag racing...

However, I don't know any of this stuff for sure, so I can't really predict what the best setup will be for any given application at this time.

EDIT: Assuming you can pull maximum current from the pack at any point in time then the average current through a perfect run will be half that current for the total run time. E.g. - 3000A for 8 seconds.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. How about this: your pack voltage minus ~20% (sag) = max motor voltage. The Sol will limit your motor side voltage so it doesn't melt while making full RPM at 3000 amps. 

Jeff, can the motor really take that much? At some point it will saturate and won't take any more current, no? 300V @ 3,000 amps is quite a bit of juice for a motor that size to handle.

JR


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> ...
> Jeff, can the motor really take that much? At some point it will saturate and won't take any more current, no? 300V @ 3,000 amps is quite a bit of juice for a motor that size to handle.
> 
> JR


It is highly unlikely the WarP-11HV can take 300V and 3000A at the same time, or 3000A at a reasonably low voltage for more than a second or two. Ron has been warned that he is treading into dangerous territory here by both George Hamstra and me, but drag racers will be drag racers you know...

However, saturation in a series DC motor is very different from any other motor (or transformer): all that happens is that torque/amp changes from a square law curve to a linear one. The true limiting factor here is, literally, that at current every conductor becomes a fuse. That is, the I²t rating is what is most important here, and no one knows what that is (and it is very expensive data to obtain, as it requires destroying several motors at each current level and time frame).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, I get the message. BUT, we must push the envelope to compete with ICE Drag Cars. I will first try the BigSols at 2000amps 340volts each motor and see how things heat up, if okay, then up a little at a time. I will find the limits. 



Tesseract said:


> It is highly unlikely the WarP-11HV can take 300V and 3000A at the same time, or 3000A at a reasonably low voltage for more than a second or two. Ron has been warned that he is treading into dangerous territory here by both George Hamstra and me, but drag racers will be drag racers you know...
> 
> However, saturation in a series DC motor is very different from any other motor (or transformer): all that happens is that torque/amp changes from a square law curve to a linear one. The true limiting factor here is, literally, that at current every conductor becomes a fuse. That is, the I²t rating is what is most important here, and no one knows what that is (and it is very expensive data to obtain, as it requires destroying several motors at each current level and time frame).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

What I don't understand is how some DC motors can operate at 400 to 600 volts and Warp 11" motors can't??? Industrial motors run at high amps and volts all the time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Is there a log file (graph) from Cro's Warp 11HV dyno pull that someone can post here? Hungry for more data...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> What I don't understand is how some DC motors can operate at 400 to 600 volts and Warp 11" motors can't??? Industrial motors run at high amps and volts all the time.


Almost all of the Industrial motors I've worked with aren't DC, they're 3-phase AC at 600V, 480V, 208V. The ones that are DC industrial motors were usually very large. Saw some put on large boats when I was working at GE Energy (Father designs drive systems for them).


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I will first try the BigSols at 2000amps 340volts each motor...


You can also limit max kW output so that the controller for example runs at max 2000 Amps until the power output hits 400 kW (ie 200 Volt) and then current will drop to maintain the maximum 400 kW as motor voltage goes up until it hits your 340 Volt.

Just an idea...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Is there a log file (graph) from Cro's Warp 11HV dyno pull that someone can post here? Hungry for more data...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Bowser.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> What I don't understand is how some DC motors can operate at 400 to 600 volts and Warp 11" motors can't??? Industrial motors run at high amps and volts all the time.


Maybe you're thinking of brushless DC motors; the ones in the Prius (actually Interior Permanent Magnet type, but similar) run at up to 650 VDC.

But these are really AC motors: no brushes and commutators, and none of the windings are spinning, but are all on the stator, where they can be cooled more effectively. A spinning rotor in a DC motor, while it gets plenty air flow, is trapped inside hot field windings.

[ Edit: but an induction motor, suitable for high power, still has current in the rotor, so it still gets hot. There are horror stories of "aluminum rain" from overheated rotors, so I guess AC motors have their limitations as well. ]

Maybe we'll soon be bumping against the limitations of brushed DC motors?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

frodus said:


> The ones that are DC industrial motors were usually very large. Saw some put on large boats when I was working at GE Energy (Father designs drive systems for them).


I wonder what factors make a few industrial applications lean towards DC at high power levels, when the vast majority are AC. I suppose the lack of mains AC on boats might be one such factor; most industrial motors are probably still driven "direct on line" rather than through a Variable Frequency Drive.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Maybe you're thinking of brushless DC motors; the ones in the Prius (actually Interior Permanent Magnet type, but similar) run at up to 650 VDC.
> 
> But these are really AC motors: no brushes and commutators, and none of the windings are spinning, but are all on the stator, where they can be cooled more effectively. A spinning rotor in a DC motor, while it gets plenty air flow, is trapped inside hot field windings.
> 
> ...


one limiting factor i can think of (not mentioned here but in other resent threads) - is ground clearance and may be drive shaft size and angle (pict)
: ))


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> but an induction motor, suitable for high power, still has current in the rotor, so it still gets hot. There are horror stories of "aluminum rain" from overheated rotors, so I guess AC motors have their limitations as well.


Yep. I think many miss that and believe that since AC-motors can often be water cooled they're good for absurd levels of power as long as you cool it fast enough, but you can only water cool the stator! The rotor is still air cooled and when that one goes...


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Qer said:


> Yep. I think many miss that and believe that since AC-motors can often be water cooled they're good for absurd levels of power ...


Some of the Remy motors are oil cooled. Maybe that's the answer.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> Some of the Remy motors are oil cooled. Maybe that's the answer.


This is getting a bit OT for the thread, but doesn't that increase friction and thus means that efficiency drops?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

With our new pack design and cells, it won't add too much weight to build a 6000amp / 400volt pack. The pack weight would still be lighter than what we currently used all season. We are reducing car weight in other areas of the vehicle.



Tesseract said:


> That would be safest, yes. You might end up with a big pack, though.
> 
> Unfortunately, without more log files from a WarP-11HV (I only have 1 from CroDriver's epic dyno run) I can't really make any firm predictions on pack size for you. If I operate on the assumption that the 11HV is a lot like two WarP-9s in series then I doubt you will see 3kA from the battery pack for more than a 0.1-0.3 seconds and then current will decline steadily until (if) you shift up a gear.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I would like to position each controller where my current Zillas are located, one of these will fit long ways, but I will have to design a second level, like a shelf above the first controller to fit both. The controllers will not touch but will I have any electrical issues with one over the other? 



Tesseract said:


> The 3D cad drawings for the bus structure and enclosure are done. Unsurprisingly, it's a rather big beast: ~27.75" long x ~15.25" wide x ~6.40" tall. We've already received the copper sheet for the bus plates and the aluminum billets should be in later this week. With any luck we'll be cutting metal by Friday (and then we'll have a better idea of how much it will weigh, too).
> 
> Attached is one of the 3D renderings.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LOL, I missed this one. I was hoping when I hit the pedal the wheels spin the Earth's crust and bring us back into the ice age!

Remember they found a frozen mammoth under miles of ice in the South Pole? Well years from now me and Warp Factor II may be found under miles of ICE in NY. LMFAO! 



JRoque said:


> Ron, what are you trying to do? Have your car stay put and Earth spin under it??? What kind of transmission can take that much torque?
> 
> JR


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Gett'em while they're HOT!

I am wiring a large deposit Monday to Evnetics to secure my two BigSol, King Kong Controllers!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> With our new pack design and cells, it won't add too much weight to build a 6000amp / 400volt pack. The pack weight would still be lighter than what we currently used all season. We are reducing car weight in other areas of the vehicle.


Note that I said we are AIMING for 400V+ operation, not that we are there yet. This is why I keep saying to hold off on building the battery pack. Conversely, you can hold off ordering your controllers until the specs are finalized through testing, but then they will cost approximately $9000 each... 




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I would like to position each controller where my current Zillas are located, one of these will fit long ways, but I will have to design a second level, like a shelf above the first controller to fit both. The controllers will not touch but will I have any electrical issues with one over the other?


No electrical issues with this arrangement, but it will be cumbersome to work on the lower controller. Don't overlook the possible weight of the controllers - of course we don't know what the weight is for sure, but I'd plan on it being 40-50kg (80-100lbs or so).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Time to order is now!


Tesseract said:


> Note that I said we are AIMING for 400V+ operation, not that we are there yet. This is why I keep saying to hold off on building the battery pack. Conversely, you can hold off ordering your controllers until the specs are finalized through testing, but then they will cost approximately $9000 each...
> 
> 
> No electrical issues with this arrangement, but it will be cumbersome to work on the lower controller. Don't overlook the possible weight of the controllers - of course we don't know what the weight is for sure, but I'd plan on it being 40-50kg (80-100lbs or so).


In regards to the battery pack I am only building the parallel packs for now, I will start connecting into series once I know what I need.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...No electrical issues with this arrangement, but it will be cumbersome to work on the lower controller...


Put one of them on "tracks", allowing it to slide out for maintainence. That can be as simple as steel tubing that fits inside a slightly larger piece, or as complicated as real industrial slides that can support the weight. The controller to motor cables would have to be a bit longer, but you would have to disconnect them to get to the lower controller if they weren't anyway.





Tesseract said:


> ...Don't overlook the possible weight of the controllers - of course we don't know what the weight is for sure, but I'd plan on it being 40-50kg (80-100lbs or so).


Each!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Each!


[in response to my weight estimation of 80-100lbs]

A Z2K weighs 38lbs, IIRC, and Big Sol will be around twice as powerful but also include the contactors and a much more solid housing so why is this surprising?

The 1MW industrial DC drive I referenced earlier in this thread (the one that costs $41k) weighs 450lbs, so quitcherfuckinbitchin.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> In regards to the battery pack I am only building the parallel packs for now, I will start connecting into series once I know what I need.


That sounds like a good plan to me.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

My idea would be to add a second layer of aluminum just large enough to support the upper controller. The upper deck would be supported by aluminum square blocks threaded. It would be easy to remove the upper deck if needed. Speaking from experience everything needs to be bolted, the violent launch of an electric drag car is something to remember, it will snap your neck.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, remember all the Zilla controllers do not include the contactors (which are very expensive). My current configuration with two Tyco Kilovac contactors adds addition weight to a Zilla controllers. 



Tesseract said:


> [in response to my weight estimation of 80-100lbs]
> 
> A Z2K weighs 38lbs, IIRC, and Big Sol will be around twice as powerful but also include the contactors and a much more solid housing so why is this surprising?
> 
> The 1MW industrial DC drive I referenced earlier in this thread (the one that costs $41k) weighs 450lbs, so quitcherfuckinbitchin.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Can you add some type of mercury switch that shuts off the controllers if they end up upside down? LOL, only kidding.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> [in response to my weight estimation of 80-100lbs]
> 
> A Z2K weighs 38lbs, IIRC, and Big Sol will be around twice as powerful but also include the contactors and a much more solid housing so why is this surprising?
> 
> The 1MW industrial DC drive I referenced earlier in this thread (the one that costs $41k) weighs 450lbs, so quitcherfuckinbitchin.


Point taken. Fuckinbitchin over. In all fairness, I think I have been planning for about that much weight all along, considering the overall numbers I have, but something about being smacked with the truth of those numbers in print... It's not really surprising, as much as it is a reality check. Like finally hearing the doctor say the baseball-sized growth on the side of your neck is a "bad" thing.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Is there a log file (graph) from Cro's Warp 11HV dyno pull that someone can post here? Hungry for more data...


post#429 here
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287p43.html

and 451 here.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287p46.html

Gerhard


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Ron,
If you were to build separate packs, one for each controller and made them 3000Ax400 volts, what would you estimate the internal resistance of the pack to be.

Qer,
Back in post #25, you mentioned zorching motor logs. Have you looked at enough to know if zorch is a function of current or voltage or power or maybe sustained power so maybe COMM temperature? If you have a couple of logs, I would love to see what I can learn. 

Anybody else, 
Do you know the actual limits for a warp11HV in drag raceing use? Or do we have to wait for Ron to blow one up?
Gerhard


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Not sure what the internal resistance of the pack will be, but each cell is under 1.3

It is my opinion that zorching of the motors is caused more from higher voltage and less from amperage. We will be using Netgain's new dual comm motors that will be turbo blown for cooling. Only the future will tell? 



GerhardRP said:


> Ron,
> If you were to build separate packs, one for each controller and made them 3000Ax400 volts, what would you estimate the internal resistance of the pack to be.
> 
> Qer,
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I prefer using one pack to feed both controllers, it is my worry that separate packs to each controller may give one controller an "edge" over the other and cause a different voltage and amperage to each motor. This would cause one motor to work harder than its partner. 



GerhardRP said:


> Ron,
> If you were to build separate packs, one for each controller and made them 3000Ax400 volts, what would you estimate the internal resistance of the pack to be.
> 
> Qer,
> ...


----------



## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

seems there was inaccurate dat, discrepancy between controller data and data from actual dyno run (rpm on chart been twice higher than actual rpm) , dyno and controller calibration issues, etc.
who has actual dyno chart or data? (data from thread now lost) 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=198773&postcount=414

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287p42.html

Gerhard, can you model rpm, A, power as function from torque (x) and compere Cro's data and published by netgain (extrapolated at 72v 500a)?
http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#WarP_11HV


----------



## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Gerhard, can you post 11hv model data based on netgain chart with amps extanded 0- 2000a at v=72;144;288?


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

just to see what would take from Sol to have 1000hp car (dual mt) : )))










... and 1 mw car (megawatt) - 312v after sag .... 
here you go, Ron : )









p.s. or if mt efficiency 87%....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> just to see what would take from Sol to have 1000hp car (dual mt)...


That's what I'm working on. I'm looking for maximum sustained power, with adequate "burst" potential (~1000hp). Two dual-comm Warp 11HVs and a single Big Sol would be my personal preference. It's really hard to plan until the specs are finalized though. It's also proving to be more of a challenge than I had anticipated to incorporate all that into my minimalist concept, but I love challenges...


----------



## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> That's what I'm working on. I'm looking for maximum sustained power, with adequate "burst" potential (~1000hp). Two dual-comm Warp 11HVs and a single Big Sol would be my personal preference. It's really hard to plan until the specs are finalized though. It's also proving to be more of a challenge than I had anticipated to incorporate all that into my minimalist concept, but I love challenges...


!!! 
well, worst case scenario - dual mt & Big Sol + one tiny mt and tiny Sol 
(there is alwys room for one more) : ((((


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> Back in post #25, you mentioned zorching motor logs. Have you looked at enough to know if zorch is a function of current or voltage or power or maybe sustained power so maybe COMM temperature? If you have a couple of logs, I would love to see what I can learn.


You know, the whole concept of sharing information builds on information flowing in more than one direction. I'm an OSS guy myself, enjoying the concept of giving and taking and so on and when we started the Soliton project I was personally very keen on sharing what I learned since I thought that would benefit the community.

Since then we've seen several of our ideas (both hard- and software) spread to open projects, especially the juicy pieces we dropped as tidbits in this very forum. Of course, we can't stop people to observe and mimic (in some rare cases disassemble and mimic) and I wouldn't dream of trying to forbid people to copy our work. I myself use Libre Office now and then and since it's clearly inspired by Microsoft Office it'd be a bit hypocritical trying to stop people doing the same with evnetics stuff just because it's "my" stuff.

However, even though I can hardly blame people from observe and learn, one thing I think is the only polite thing to do in those cases is to give credit where credit's due. There's never a "Hey, those guys at evnetics made this really cool thing, you think we can manage that as well?", there's just always "I came up with this really cool idea!". This annoys me big time. If you copy something, at least have the courage to give credit for the original idea? No? This has made me be less and less open with what we tinker with and what new ideas and thoughts we have.

Now, yeah, I have a hunch what goes on when a brush set in a motor turns into plasma. That knowledge comes with a pretty expensive 4-digit price tag in several blown motors. I'm pondering how to use that knowledge in a way that will benefit our paying customers, but to test it out for real might very well mean we'll create even more pretty expensive scrap metal from some trial and error before it can be released to everyone.

Give me one reason why I should hand it over just like that.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Qer said:


> You know, the whole concept of sharing information builds on information flowing in more than one direction. I'm an OSS guy myself, enjoying the concept of giving and taking and so on and when we started the Soliton project I was personally very keen on sharing what I learned since I thought that would benefit the community.
> <snip>
> Now, yeah, I have a hunch what goes on when a brush set in a motor turns into plasma. That knowledge comes with a pretty expensive 4-digit price tag in several blown motors. I'm pondering how to use that knowledge in a way that will benefit our paying customers, but to test it out for real might very well mean we'll create even more pretty expensive scrap metal from some trial and error before it can be released to everyone.
> 
> Give me one reason why I should hand it over just like that.


Hi Qer,
You may have noticed that I have been free with my motor theory. As to The question at hand, namely COMM failure, I posted some results from my analysis of Electrobishi here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45679&page=21 post 206.
What I think I see is that when the actual motor voltage exceeds what my model predicts by 5-10 volts, COMM failure is imminent. You could incorporate my model into your controller software and thus prevent zorching ... no more destroyed motors.
Gerhard


----------



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> Give me one reason why I should hand it over just like that.


Because you love us? Seriously though, you guys are better at the programming side of this controller game than most of your competitors, and I assume would be offering some sort of "anti-zorch" feature. It sounds like something you guys could offer that no one else would really get quite right. The "Science" would back up your new feature and help you sell an extra controller every few years or so. 

What I would really like to know is if it is basically a function of "Excess power in=Zorch", or if it is more specifically excess voltage or amperage. The reason I would like to know is because of my dream of a controller like Shiva/Big Sol allowing a massively flat power curve by using massive amps at low rpms and lower voltages.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> What I don't understand is how some DC motors can operate at 400 to 600 volts and Warp 11" motors can't??? Industrial motors run at high amps and volts all the time.


Because industrial DC motors are wound for that voltage and have compensating windings PLUS interpole windings along with a large comm area. Where as the Warp 11 HV only has interpole windings to help with high voltage and a small comm area which will be susceptible to arc over.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

So will the new 11" HV motor with dual comms be able to handle higher voltages?



Dennis said:


> Because industrial DC motors are wound for that voltage and have compensating windings PLUS interpole windings along with a large comm area. Where as the Warp 11 HV only has interpole windings to help with high voltage and a small comm area which will be susceptible to arc over.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Good info, thank you! 



gor said:


> just to see what would take from Sol to have 1000hp car (dual mt) : )))
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd, using one controller for two motors, which way would you wire the motors? Just curious.



toddshotrods said:


> That's what I'm working on. I'm looking for maximum sustained power, with adequate "burst" potential (~1000hp). Two dual-comm Warp 11HVs and a single Big Sol would be my personal preference. It's really hard to plan until the specs are finalized though. It's also proving to be more of a challenge than I had anticipated to incorporate all that into my minimalist concept, but I love challenges...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd, using one controller for two motors, which way would you wire the motors? Just curious.


I wish I could answer that question, but I won't be able to until the final specs for Big Sol, and possibly the dual comm Warp motor are available. I think I got the new vehicle layout sorted out today, and have space reserved for whatever I need to do, in an arrangement that meets my needs. I can accommodate two Big Sols, but I don't want that. That is absolutely a last resort.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> So will the new 11" HV motor with dual comms be able to handle higher voltages?


Don't know, but here is perspective of just how big an industrial grade DC motor comm is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZO__ebsSpE . This is a 200 HP at 500 volts DC motor. Look at the comm at 1:47. It is a monster size compared to EV dc motors.

Also look at this 2000 HP DC motor's comm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgizj6v6GRA

1000 HP DC motor guts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO__6jjbEiw


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> ...What I think I see is that when the actual motor voltage exceeds what my model predicts by 5-10 volts, COMM failure is imminent. You could incorporate my model into your controller software and thus prevent zorching ... no more destroyed motors.
> Gerhard


I really don't think you can accurately predict zorching, so being free with your model might be a moot point. You need to not only consider voltage per armature turn and RPM, but also relative humidity, commutator temperature, density of carbon dust in the air space between the brushes, etc... You can, however, detect zorching - or, at least, we suspect so.

Even still, the number one cause of destroyed motors - at least with a Soliton1 - is from simply putting too much current through them for too long. Out of the 7 or 8 we have destroyed thus far only 1 was definitely a zorch (saw the plasma fireball). 

At any rate, to actually test our zorch detection scheme we need to, yep, attempt to zorch motors. Given that zorching isn't covered under warranty, this sort of testing can be awfully expensive, especially for a small business like Evnetics. 




Batterypoweredtoad said:


> ...I assume would be offering some sort of "anti-zorch" feature. It sounds like something you guys could offer that no one else would really get quite right. The "Science" would back up your new feature and help you sell an extra controller every few years or so.


Heh. See above 



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> What I would really like to know is if it is basically a function of "Excess power in=Zorch", or if it is more specifically excess voltage or amperage. The reason I would like to know is because of my dream of a controller like Shiva/Big Sol allowing a massively flat power curve by using massive amps at low rpms and lower voltages.


Zorching is mostly the result of too much voltage between armature turns (ie - comm bars). Unfortunately, the voltage difference between armature turns depends on both RPM and current (BEMF is proportional to current, after all), while the propensity to zorch depends on the other factors mentioned above.

Hence why I say trying to predict when it will happen is impractical; but detecting it, and perhaps stopping it in its tracks, might be possible.


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

As an UNSWAS would sparging the com with nitrogen or helium tend to dampen zorching tendencies? Any effect could be tested using small motors and minimize cost.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> So will the new 11" HV motor with dual comms be able to handle higher voltages?


No, the dual comms will be able to handle a higher current. The amount of voltage a motor can handle depends mainly on the bar count (more bars = higher voltage).


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> As an UNSWAS would sparging the com with nitrogen or helium tend to dampen zorching tendencies? Any effect could be tested using small motors and minimize cost.


I was thinking about gases that would kill plasma in contactors or commutators


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Inerting might not be practical for continuous use but in drag racing it would only be used for brief periods.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

The absolute best insulating gas is sulfur hexafluoride which is used in high voltage switch gear, but trying to get the motor 100% sealed seems like it would be tricky.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I really don't think you can accurately predict zorching, so being free with your model might be a moot point.


So, how will I demonstrate that I can recognize impending zorch if no one will share data ... do I have to buy a test setup and kill motors myself?
If you are concerned about intellectual property, PM logs and I will only release them through you ... benefiting the community by your improved product.
Gerhard


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I think the problem with zorchs is that; what level of brush dust initiates it. Tess said all the parameters he needed, but couldn't quantify the when, just observe the event. Hmmm....... kinda like quantum physics. Tess does indicate he may be able to detect the event and end it which I take to be just short of genius class magic.

So up to the level of voltage that will jump the comm gaps or the distance brush to brush, there is no hard and REPEATABLE data since the oopsied zorch tends to destroy the subject motor and associated conditions.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Dennis said:


> The absolute best insulating gas is sulfur hexafluoride which is used in high voltage switch gear, but trying to get the motor 100% sealed seems like it would be tricky.


sounds good , arcing can yield disulfur dicafluoride toxicity smilar to phosgene we get that from burning straw and wool . something to be aware . I have inhaled more then a little straw and wool smoke as a reserve firefighter .


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I wonder what increase in amps if used in switch gear and in motors . Thanks Dennis !


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I just want to confirm to all, we have wired funds today to Evnetics to purchase two BigSols. We want them, and we will get them! They will be the best controllers ever built.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Salty9 said:


> As an UNSWAS would sparging the com with nitrogen or helium tend to dampen zorching tendencies? Any effect could be tested using small motors and minimize cost.


Nitrogen should have little effect as the atmosphere is 78% nitrogen already. The main gain would be from excluding humidity. Helium conducts electricity better than air. All the noble gasses conduct more easily which is why they are used in "neon" (gas discharge) tubes. Well, I haven't seen a Radon tube.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> So up to the level of voltage that will jump the comm gaps or the distance brush to brush, there is no hard and REPEATABLE data since the oopsied zorch tends to destroy the subject motor and associated conditions.


Yep. And even if you detect it and stop it from burning things to slag I don't think it's possible to avoid all damage. What I'm mainly hoping for is that a system like this might be the difference between repairable and scrap metal...

I guess the first tests should be performed on some junk yard fork lift motors. They'll probably be a lot easier to run into zorching too... 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I just want to confirm to all, we have wired funds today to Evnetics to purchase two BigSols. We want them, and we will get them! They will be the best controllers ever built.


And NO PRESSURE!!!

Cool.


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Nitrogen should have little effect as the atmosphere is 78% nitrogen already. The main gain would be from excluding humidity. Helium conducts electricity better than air. All the noble gasses conduct more easily which is why they are used in "neon" (gas discharge) tubes. Well, I haven't seen a Radon tube.


The replacement of 21% O2 and O3 by N2 might have a large effect.

Info from Wikipedia Ozone article:

"Incidental production
Ozone may be formed from O2 by electrical discharges and by action of high energy electromagnetic radiation. Unsuppressed arcing breaks down the chemical bonds of the atmospheric oxygen surrounding the contacts [O2 → 2O]. Free ions of oxygen in and around the arc recombine to create ozone [O3].[47] Certain electrical equipment generate significant levels of ozone. This is especially true of devices using high voltages, such as ionic air purifiers, laser printers, photocopiers, tasers and arc welders. Electric motors using brushes can generate ozone from repeated sparking inside the unit. Large motors that use brushes, such as those used by elevators or hydraulic pumps, will generate more ozone than smaller motors.. . . ."


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been planning, from the beginning, to use some type of bottled gas to supplement (forced air) cooling, because I'm building for autocross and road course, as well as drag racing - longer hard run times. Maybe there will be some fringe benefits?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Jeff, is there any problem with Big Sol being mounted on its side? Not literally resting on its side, but bolted to a mount that is rotated 90-degrees (along the 27.75" length of the controller).


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Jeff, is there any problem with Big Sol being mounted on its side? Not literally resting on its side, but bolted to a mount that is rotated 90-degrees (along the 27.75" length of the controller).


I think that will affect the flow distribution of coolant but Seb disagrees. Either way, how could we possibly know since we haven't built one yet?!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I think that will affect the flow distribution of coolant but Seb disagrees. Either way, how could we possibly know since we haven't built one yet?!


I was referring to the (electrical) hard parts inside. I assume there shouldn't be any reason a controller can't be mounted in a different orientation, but I'm not an EE, so I don't really know, so I asked.

Given enough volume, and adequate pressure, coolant flow should work regardless of the controller's physical orientation, unless the internal passages aren't completely filled with coolant when the system is in operation?

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll just have to wait until after they're built and in use for the answers to my questions.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well Gentlemen, after measuring track width and wheel base plus roll cage dimensions we are able to replace our current 1981 Camaro body with a 2011 Camaro fiberglass body built by VFN. So, we now have plenty of room for the addition controller weight. I had the Camaro on the scales today with all parts but batteries removed, the battery weight was 496lbs, the new battery pack will be about 300lbs with BMS. Confirmed with George at Netgain, new motors will be built in house at Netgain with dual comm 3 brushes each! Lighter car with more power!


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I bought the first one.  (not sure if that is a good thing) lol


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I bought the first one.  (not sure if that is a good thing) lol


You don't just buy the first Shiva and not tell where its going, c'mon share details 

Which roads you plan to tear up with this thing, etc etc?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh, it's just goin in my little red truck.  I'm not planning to use it only for racing... but I will visit the track. Just my daily driver..


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

We'll stock up on motors for you....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> We'll stock up on motors for you....


Thanks.  I can't afford to buy motors... especially now. lol I have a 9" in the truck = Nope. I have an 11" in the basement = nope. I have a 13" I've been building for a while now =  

When I look inside these motors... the 13" is the only one with conductors large enough to stand a fighting chance.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> the 13" is the only one with conductors large enough to stand a fighting chance.


Well, then stock up on transmissions, U-joints, differentials, tires...... something gotta give eventually with this power level.

Seriously though, seems strange to put Shiva in a typical road vehicle, doesn't Soliton1 provide plenty of power to burn rubber in your truck? And more importantly, is controller really a bottleneck for you?

Just curious for real reasons to have one of these bad boys other than bragging rights


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Well, then stock up on transmissions, U-joints, differentials, tires...... something gotta give eventually with this power level.
> 
> Seriously though, seems strange to put Shiva in a typical road vehicle, doesn't Soliton1 provide plenty of power to burn rubber in your truck? And more importantly, is controller really a bottleneck for you?
> 
> Just curious for real reasons to have one of these bad boys other than bragging rights


Transmissions? Lenco works well.
U-Joints? - 1350's work fine.
Differential? Ford 9" handles every other monster power plant.
Tires? - ah.. they just get changed. 

No, Soliton1 isn't enough.
Bottleneck? well, not yet.. and probably not ever. 
Bragging rights? - Have I been bragging?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I bought the first one.  (not sure if that is a good thing) lol


Isn't this bragging?  Nothing wrong with it, you should be bragging, I know I was and still am bragging about having very first Soliton1 in my car 

By the way, is it an offense to call Shiva a "bad boy"? Should it be a "bad girl"?


Congrats on being the first! Can't wait to see install blog with pictures and then some videos of stuff flying.....


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Oh, it's just goin in my little red truck.  I'm not planning to use it only for racing... but I will visit the track. Just my daily driver..


Can't help but thinking about this guy:










And the story behind the car goes:



> Michael Wilcock bought a 27-litre Rolls-Royce Merlin XXV from a scrapyard for £50. He fitted it in a chassis made of two Daimler Dingo Scout chassis welded together.


And for those that don't know: Rolls-Royce Merlin was the motor that was used in the famous UK Spitfire fighter during WWII. Now, I wonder why you remind me of him....


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Isn't this bragging?


 naah, thats just an FYI. 



dimitri said:


> D Nothing wrong with it, you should be bragging, I know I was and still am bragging about having very first Soliton1 in my car
> 
> By the way, is it an offense to call Shiva a "bad boy"? Should it be a "bad girl"?
> 
> ...


I remember when you testing out the Soliton1. I bought one of the first ones also.
Somehow, I like the sound of bad girl soooo much better. ))


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Qer said:


> Can't help but thinking about this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Qer. . I think...lol I've witnessed full power runs from a Merlin on many occasions. I use to be part involved in tractor pulling. Lots of those guys used Merlins. ya, they were crazy...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Thanks.  I can't afford to buy motors... especially now. lol I have a 9" in the truck = Nope. I have an 11" in the basement = nope. I have a 13" I've been building for a while now =
> 
> When I look inside these motors... the 13" is the only one with conductors large enough to stand a fighting chance.


EVsource claims that Warp13 with 1000A will produce 440ftlbs of torque...and with 1400A 640ftlbs!!

http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp13.php

So....2000A is probably around 960ftlbs from a 13" motor....


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> EVsource claims that Warp13 with 1000A will produce 440ftlbs of torque...and with 1400A 640ftlbs!!
> 
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp13.php
> 
> So....2000A is probably around 960ftlbs from a 13" motor....


... but you can still only let the smoke out once!


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> ... but you can still only let the smoke out once!


not sure i follow....


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> not sure i follow....


Meaning, if you run 2000 amps continuously into that motor I believe you will find where they hid the smoke...


----------



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I think MOST controllers are amp limited. 

Yes a Warp13 will produce around 440ft lbs of torque at 1000A. Sounds impressive until you try to run it direct drive and figure out that it is the same torque output my 91 miata had in first gear. Most people don't use 13" motors anyway, they use things like a 11" that produce somewhere between 275-325 ft lbs at 1000a. I see the big benefit of the big amps being the ability to use multiple motors in direct drive. Limit the battery amps and take advantage of the high amp limit of the controller at low rpm's and get usable hp throughout the rpm range.


----------



## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> Yes a Warp13 will produce around 440ft lbs of torque at 1000A. Sounds impressive until you try to run it direct drive and figure out that it is the same torque output my 91 miata had in first gear. Most people don't use 13" motors anyway, they use things like a 11" that produce somewhere between 275-325 ft lbs at 1000a. I see the big benefit of the big amps being the ability to use multiple motors in direct drive. Limit the battery amps and take advantage of the high amp limit of the controller at low rpm's and get usable hp throughout the rpm range.



What is more impressive I think that sets a warp13 apart or any EV DC motor from say your gas powered car is that for you to double the torque of your engine you would have to spend thousands of dollars in upgrades where as all I have to do is increase the current of my motor by simply changing some settings in the controller software. Also it is much easier to get LARGE gains in horsepower from electric with relative ease versus what you would have to do for a combustion engine.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unless your controller is already maxed out, then you have to spend thousands of dollars on a Big Sol, and maybe a battery pack to support it  Power isn't cheap no matter what the form.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Fellow EV Dudes!

We must get ready for the new evolution taking place. I am spending a fortune on the new Warp Factor III (if I don't get divorced,LOL). I want to show the NHRA/IHRA that we are the real deal and can race at speeds above 170mph under 8 seconds with a door slammer. We have upgraded our suspension and rollcage, we are now installing a 2011 Camaro fiberglass body, two new Netgain RACING motors and two of the best controllers that will hit the market from Evnetics. I want to show the World what EV Racing has matured into, the same level as Nitro Door Slammers. I want to thank Jeff, Seb ,QER , and George for deciding to go to the next level. I will not let you down, your parts will be known all over the World!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

One point has not been made, the Sheba can be used to replace a Zilla 2k EHV, you do not need to use all the 3000amps available. It is a much cleaner design than the Zilla and the pain in the tail hairball.



EV-propulsion.com said:


> We'll stock up on motors for you....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Guys, 

In a salute to the new highest quality controller on the block Evnetics Big Sheba, I might record a video of me beating a Zilla and hairball with a sledge hammer! Since I had so many problems this season with hairballs, I find it fitting to take out some rage on the Zilla product. I am sure this might upset a few of my friends on the West Coast, but xxxx them!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You can do what you want, but doesn't that make about as much sense as burning a few thousand dollars?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Guys,
> 
> In a salute to the new highest quality controller on the block Evnetics Big Sheba, I might record a video of me beating a Zilla and hairball with a sledge hammer! Since I had so many problems this season with hairballs, I find it fitting to take out some rage on the Zilla product. I am sure this might upset a few of my friends on the West Coast, but xxxx them!


Hey Ron, if you really want to upset someone, why don't you wrap up the Zilla and send it to your buddies at NEDRA?  Seriously, selling the controller can pay for new tires, at least.

JR


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I know I can sell it, but all I went through with those guys, beating on a West Coast Product just might relieve some stress! Maybe after it's broken in 100 pieces Otmar can put it back together. Or put it in the corner like he was done with so many waiting for repairs. 

Let's be honest, I just love those guys! 



JRoque said:


> Hey Ron, if you really want to upset someone, why don't you wrap up the Zilla and send it to your buddies at NEDRA?  Seriously, selling the controller can pay for new tires, at least.
> 
> JR


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Fellow EV Dudes!
> 
> We must get ready for the new evolution taking place. I am spending a fortune on the new Warp Factor III (if I don't get divorced,LOL). I want to show the NHRA/IHRA that we are the real deal and can race at speeds above 170mph under 8 seconds with a door slammer. We have upgraded our suspension and rollcage, we are now installing a 2011 Camaro fiberglass body, two new Netgain RACING motors and two of the best controllers that will hit the market from Evnetics. I want to show the World what EV Racing has matured into, the same level as Nitro Door Slammers. I want to thank Jeff, Seb ,QER , and George for deciding to go to the next level. I will not let you down, your parts will be known all over the World!



If a track with electrified tracks where made then you would be at even lower ET times. I posted about this idea here, but many people say it would slow the progress of batteries becoming better and well, they do make a valid point. Batteries do need to get better and if the battery manufactures see what this battery manufacturer's batteries in your car can do then they too will feel the need to compete. In the end the consumer wins!


EDIT: You seem to have the funds for this kind of stuff. Maybe one day you can have your DC motors filled with SF6 gas and probably push close to 1000 HP.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Guys,
> 
> In a salute to the new highest quality controller on the block Evnetics Big Sheba, I might record a video of me beating a Zilla and hairball with a sledge hammer! Since I had so many problems this season with hairballs, I find it fitting to take out some rage on the Zilla product. I am sure this might upset a few of my friends on the West Coast, but xxxx them!


Hey Ron, don't hammer it, sponsor me a bit. LOL


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Is Big Sol (aka, Shiva) really big? That would be a yes:


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Holy Crap! It looks like a Birthday cake  I love it!



Tesseract said:


> Is Big Sol (aka, Shiva) really big? That would be a yes:


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Ask NEDRA to get you a sponsor! 



albano said:


> Hey Ron, don't hammer it, sponsor me a bit. LOL


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Holy Crap! It looks like a Birthday cake  I love it!


Yeah, we told you it'd be big, but honestly I hadn't really grasped the size myself. It's one thing to read the specs in text, another to actually SEE it with a reference for scale. I'm not sure "Holy Crap!" quite covers it. Not even with the exclamation mark...

Can't wait to see pics of how you stuff TWO of these in your car.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hey Jeff, you guys should go after that industrial market. The "Sol" in Soliton can take a new meaning if you mod it for solar use - ok so more than a simple 'mod' but you get the point. And Parker thinks there's enough market for their DC motor controller and you can kill them in terms of pricing. Then EVs would be that couple hundred units on top of 10K industrial units for other customers
> 
> JR


I do not see this happening simply because industrial DC drives are used for shunt wound/sepex motors and generally have the following features:



IR compensation
4-quadrant control
Air cooled continuous rating
Accepts input controls from a wide variety of sources
No bridge rectifiers needed since GTO's work directly with the AC to convert it to DC power that is varied based on the firing angle of the GTO's.
500 volts output

The price of the Big Sol would have to increase beyond $10,000 and plus the industrial DC motor control market is VERY crowded. At least in the EV market there does not exist a 1 MW DC motor controller so I think it is more competitive for the intended market that it was designed for.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

albano said:


> Hey Ron, don't hammer it, sponsor me a bit. LOL


Hey albano.... weren't you one of the people bugging us to make a proper racing controller? Well, here it comes...


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Hey albano.... weren't you one of the people bugging us to make a proper racing controller? Well, here it comes...


One thing I can say I'll never pay so much for such a big brick as your . 
First, technology is going smaller and not big. Remember first cell phone and computer use to be big and now it getting smaller, and you are busy building something that the size of a petrol tank, "be smart and go smaller" 

We are busy design our own controller that will be such powerful for far less than half the price and we will get there! This is our company that we build our own ICE fuel management, write our own program and we also sell to US http://gotech.co.za/ . We will build strong and reliable controller and beat everyone prices. We even design our own dashboard.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

albano said:


> ...First, technology is going smaller and not big. Remember first cell phone and computer use to be big and now it getting smaller, and you are busy building something that the size of a petrol tank, "be smart and go smaller"


You mean like in this SNL skit???








albano said:


> We are busy design our own controller that will be such powerful for far less than half the price and we will get there!....


Well, I wish you the best of luck albano. Hope you like Ramen noodle and Beanie-Weenies...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

albano said:


> First, technology is going smaller and not big. Remember first cell phone and computer use to be big and now it getting smaller, and you are busy building something that the size of a petrol tank, "be smart and go smaller"


Bad analogy. Guess why power lines are still the same size they used to be? More power = larger power lines, not smaller electronics.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

albano said:


> First, technology is going smaller and not big. Remember first cell phone and computer use to be big and now it getting smaller, and you are busy building something that the size of a petrol tank, "be smart and go smaller"


When I was a kid I used to go to school on the tram and I especially remember that what would be the wall behind a driver in an ordinary bus was actually a huge metal cabinet that went clickety-click when the tram accelerated or decelerated.

Those trams had a motor power divided on 4 motors with a total of 120 kW. Ie, less than the power of a Soliton Jr. You could easily carry a Jr with one hand, I'd like to see you lift that cabinet without the help of a fork lift...



albano said:


> We are busy design our own controller that will be such powerful for far less than half the price and we will get there! [...] We will build strong and reliable controller and beat everyone prices. We even design our own dashboard.


Good for you. Let us know when you have a prototype. I don't mind some competition because right now, well... Yeah, there's the Zilla Z2K with it's intermittent availability, but apart from that it's a bit lonely at the top.

I wouldn't mind a sparring partner. I work much better when I have someone to compete with. Bring it on, I'm game!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Albano,

With all due respect, if you can make anything close to what Jeff,Qer, and Seb plans with the Shiva I'll eat my Zilla. The Zilla 2K controllers are made with parts that just bring you to the point of 2000amps and then the current drops like a rock, the parts Otmar installs are the bare minimum to get you to that point. Evnetics overbuilds their controllers for addition power and safety. They may be a bit larger, but worth every pound, I will prove it on the track. 



albano said:


> One thing I can say I'll never pay so much for such a big brick as your .
> First, technology is going smaller and not big. Remember first cell phone and computer use to be big and now it getting smaller, and you are busy building something that the size of a petrol tank, "be smart and go smaller"
> 
> We are busy design our own controller that will be such powerful for far less than half the price and we will get there! This is our company that we build our own ICE fuel management, write our own program and we also sell to US http://gotech.co.za/ . We will build strong and reliable controller and beat everyone prices. We even design our own dashboard.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have just had a very long conversation with a very well known ev drag racer, the finest and fastest in the sport. He is a good friend and we did some calculations for "Warp Factor III". Using two Evnetic's controllers pumping 3000amps at 370+volts powering two of Netgain's new dual comm HV motors in my 2011 EV Drag Camaro at a weight of 2000lbs or less, we should be in the range of 6 seconds to 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile, it all depends if the motors hold up. I was hoping for low 8's, but his calculations bring it down to 6 seconds, faster than his EV rail. Only the future will tell! 

Remember, 10.08 1/4 mile with two 2000amp controllers at 180volts. Car's weight was 2650 lbs. 
I gain over 1 second down to 9.08 just by reducing the Camaro's weight to 2000lbs, now add in the extra torque and HP!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Ron, looking forward to see you update this page after the upgrade: http://www.dragtimes.com/featured-electric-cars.php

JR


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have just had a very long conversation with a very well known ev drag racer, the finest and fastest in the sport. He is a good friend and we did some calculations for "Warp Factor III". Using two Evnetic's controllers pumping 3000amps at 370+volts powering two of Netgain's new dual comm HV motors in my 2011 EV Drag Camaro at a weight of 2000lbs or less, we should be in the range of 6 seconds to 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile, it all depends if the motors hold up. I was hoping for low 8's, but his calculations bring it down to 6 seconds, faster than his EV rail. Only the future will tell!
> 
> Remember, 10.08 1/4 mile with two 2000amp controllers at 180volts. Car's weight was 2650 lbs.
> I gain over 1 second down to 9.08 just by reducing the Camaro's weight to 2000lbs, now add in the extra torque and HP!


Looking forward to see how she runs...widening the power band by more than doubling the previously used motor voltage (180V vs. 370V) will definitely help the top-end.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Ron, you're just running a back-halfed chassis right? I've always been told a back-half gets very hard to handle once you start breaking into the 7's, and that you should always run a full tube chassis when start going that fast. 

I may not be remembering your build correctly though, and I'm by no means an expert on these matters.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Bad analogy. Guess why power lines are still the same size they used to be? More power = larger power lines, not smaller electronics.


In olden days batteries use to be big and heavy, and what do you get today? Small and flat as pancake, but more powerfull.

Same goes on forklift's controller, they use you be big and lots of cable and wire, and now you get a small controller like curtis and sevcon with very little cable and wire and do much better job.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

albano said:


> ...a small controller like curtis and sevcon...


Well, if Shiva was aimed at fork lifts I'd think you'd have a valid point and even though the idea of a Shiva in a fork lift is an intriguing idea (imagine the burn-outs you'd do in the ware house!  ) I really don't understand why you'd even compare Shiva with something with a current rating 5-10 times lower.

However, I fail to see the reason behind your behaviour. I've always tried to treat our competition with respect (well, at least those that aren't obviously trying to scam people, that is...  ) because, as the saying goes, “Be nice to those you meet on the way up. They’re the same folks you’ll meet on the way down.” Would I gain more respect by for example belittling Otmar and trying to ridicule his work? No, it'd probably just backfire on myself so that'd be dumb. The Zilla is still a good controller and it has aged remarkably well (Rons 10.08 seconds proves that without doubt), why would I want to ridicule that? What do you hope to achieve by bashing the Shiva? Make us give up and throw in the towel to leave the market segment open for you? Sorry, no can do. We've committed ourselves to for example Ron so Shiva will happen.

So we didn't build the controller the way you'd preferred? So you claim you can build something smaller, better and cheaper? Fine, then DO it! I urge you. Right now for racing there's the Z2K, we've decided we can do better so we started to construct Shiva which is our version of better. There's only three constructive ways you can react to that:



Decide that it's good enough and join us despite that it's not your ultimate wet dream.
Decide that you can do better and beat us at the tracks.
STFU
Instead you choose the least constructive, but easiest, way; attacking us.

Why? What's the point in that?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

My current front chassis has been chopped and completely rebuilt, the problems with stock front chassis is the control arms and springs, all have been replaced in our custom front chassis. The only problem I will have is some of my current chassis is mild steel and my certification is only for 8.5 seconds, we will get thrown off the track.  After running under 8 seconds and getting thrown off a few tracks I will lower the controller to keep us at 8.5. If the money is right I will replace the current chassis with a Jerry Bickel style chassis. Already the upgrades are going to cost well over $30,000.00, what's another $7500.00 for a new chassis? 



rochesterricer said:


> Ron, you're just running a back-halfed chassis right? I've always been told a back-half gets very hard to handle once you start breaking into the 7's, and that you should always run a full tube chassis when start going that fast.
> 
> I may not be remembering your build correctly though, and I'm by no means an expert on these matters.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Albano,

I can't figure you out, one day you support me and ECEDRS all over Facebook and in private, the next you support attacks made against me. Now, I see you are doing the same to Evnetics, are you here as a spy? Trying to throw around negativity around the forum? Not once have you ever attacked NEDRA or Otmar in public, but I have plenty of private messages from you posting just the opposite. 



albano said:


> In olden days batteries use to be big and heavy, and what do you get today? Small and flat as pancake, but more powerfull.
> 
> Same goes on forklift's controller, they use you be big and lots of cable and wire, and now you get a small controller like curtis and sevcon with very little cable and wire and do much better job.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Albano,
> 
> I can't figure you out, one day you support me and ECEDRS all over Facebook and in private, the next you support attacks made against me. Now, I see you are doing the same to Evnetics, are you here as a spy? Trying to throw around negativity around the forum? Not once have you ever attacked NEDRA or Otmar in public, but I have plenty of private messages from you posting just the opposite.


I'm not attack no one, you guys don't understand my point. What I'm trying to say here is that that controller is so big that if find difficult to mount. 
It easy to build something so big and tell everyone it cost $10000.00 in the mean time inside is a bit empty. 

To blow a motor on racing is easy as abc, just by-pass it 400v direct and there you go! 

NB, I'm not here to argue!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

albano said:


> It easy to build something so big and tell everyone it cost $10000.00 in the mean time inside is a bit empty.


Yes I'm sure the inside of the Big Sol is mostly empty space 



> NB, I'm not here to argue!


No, just to belittle the efforts of others, much better.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

albano said:


> What I'm trying to say here is that that controller is so big that if find difficult to mount.


Well, honestly, the main reason it's reasonable simple to mount a huge superpowered V8 into a typical muscle car is because the whole shape of the car is designed around the concept that it has to harbour a huge engine under the hood. It's part of the whole car's reason to exist; that there has to be room for a combustion engine in it to power it.

One of the obstacles for anyone converting a fossil powered car to an electric vehicle is that it's changing the purpose of the car from something it was meant to be to something it's not as optimized for. This is an universal problem for all conversions; the general concept of a "car" is based on a set of requirements that originates from a partly different set of demands. We probably don't even reflect over it, but when someone builds an electric car that's developed as a true electric car where the requirements for a fossil fuel engine is stripped we often think it looks alien, maybe even ridiculous because we "know" how a car "should" look like and it's hard to shake that.

Why would Ron otherwise base his car on a Camaro? Is it really optimal for an EV-dragster or is it because the Camaro works as a symbol for something else? Masculine power? Manhood? The American dream? Nostalgia? Take your pick. 

Of course an electric muscle car means problems to solve while building it. That's part of the challenge!



albano said:


> NB, I'm not here to argue!


And yet you do.

Ok, you don't like the Shiva and think it's too big. Ok. Message received. Noone is forcing you to buy one but I would greatly appreciate it if you stopped being disruptive and instead just let us discuss the main topic here; the controller and how Ron's gonna stuff two of them in his Camaro. Despite your gloomy attitude he seems positive that he will be able to fit not only one but two of these beasts in his car.

Besides, the design is already done. This is how Shiva will look and it's not gonna change. Your complaining is not constructive.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Installing the Shiva controller should help balance most racing EV's. In almost every EV drag car I have seen they place the majority of the batteries in the trunk, installing the Shiva in the front will help balance your car. 

In regards to Shiva's size and weight, this case Bigger is better! Compare the Shiva to a big block Chevy with a blower and dual quads, if you want the maximum Power, you must go larger! No way around it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> Well, honestly, the main reason it's reasonable simple to mount a huge superpowered V8 into a typical muscle car is because the whole shape of the car is designed around the concept that it has to harbour a huge engine under the hood. It's part of the whole car's reason to exist; that there has to be room for a combustion engine in it to power it.
> 
> One of the obstacles for anyone converting a fossil powered car to an electric vehicle is that it's changing the purpose of the car from something it was meant to be to something it's not as optimized for. This is an universal problem for all conversions; the general concept of a "car" is based on a set of requirements that originates from a partly different set of demands. We probably don't even reflect over it, but when someone builds an electric car that's developed as a true electric car where the requirements for a fossil fuel engine is stripped we often think it looks alien, maybe even ridiculous because we "know" how a car "should" look like and it's hard to shake that.
> 
> ...


As the resident OCD design guy, I will weigh in here. Qer's points are on the right track. It's really more about what's most important under the "skin" though. Back in the first few decades of automotive dominance, the bodies were indeed heavily influenced by the engine - usually the bigger the engine, the bigger the "nose"; and this was an immediate statement of wealth and power. Look at a big Duesenburg for an example. More recently, the cars most people are converting have actually been designed from the inside out - they're designed to accomodate us and all of our "needs" while commuting. The real challenge is fitting the EV componentry around the "people space", as most modern powertrains have even been stuffed where they'll fit, around us. If you have any doubts about that, work on an old car (that was designed around the engine) and then work on a newer one replete with cupholders and infotainment systems (clues as to what the designers main priority was).

So, back to Qers point, when you're trying to fit EV components into your (newer) previously ICE car, notice how small the original space for the powertrain is, in relation to the complete vehicle. EV powertrains are actually still quite large, compared to modern ICE, for the same power/range - so you're squeezing a cantelope into a space designed for an apple. The choices are encroach on passenger space, reduce power/range capacity, or wait for technology to reduce the size (mainly the battery pack).

In Evnetics defense, they have actually done their part in this regard. They've squeezed a megawatt of power handling/delivery capability into (roughly) the size of an overnight bag. It also has to be kept in mind that this is the complete system - contactors, interface, etc, all inclusive. It was a bit challenging, but I managed to find space in a *scaled down* Model T-shaped vehicle to fit *two* of them, if need be!  I'm praying one will do the trick, for weight considerations, but two will fit under the skin. Once you wrap your head around it, the controller is really not that big. The entire powertrain, however, is pretty substantial. Two 11-inch motors, one or two Big Sol controllers, and a battery pack - quite a bit of volume, taken as a whole.

The reason I was able to do this is I designed the entire vehicle around the powertrain, people come second. I went back to the way automobiles were designed when my vehicle's styling was first created. They had small cramped passenger spaces, and the powertrains dominated the vehicles.

You have to define your priorities. If it's passengers first, you may sacrifice a bit of power and performance to accomodate them. If its performance, it's the exact opposite. That hasn't changed. That is not specific to EVs. That has always been a major challenge in designing any form of personal transporation. Look at modern supercars like Lambos and Bugattis. They are what makes them go, with a little space reserved for a couple passengers. Massive engines, turbos, intercoolers, wide tires, optmized suspensions, etc, take up the majority of the real estate.

If you consider Big Sol in that light, it makes perfect sense. It was really designed for one specific purpose - power! Everything else is supposed to be designed around that premise, and be subject to its needs.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

What is the status??? Anyone home?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They're all busy stuffing components into the "suitcase"


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> They're all busy stuffing components into the "suitcase"


Oh, I'm building a shed (which will only be rated for 230 Volt and 10 Ampere and hopefully won't accelerate in any direction), but then again my active part in the Shiva project is pretty limited. I've already given J a test software that doesn't have any (practical) limits so J can blow up hardware as he pleases without my help. Last I heard he hasn't managed to blow up anything expensive, but I bet it'll come sooner or later.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Cool! 



Qer said:


> Oh, I'm building a shed (which will only be rated for 230 Volt and 10 Ampere and hopefully won't accelerate in any direction), but then again my active part in the Shiva project is pretty limited. I've already given J a test software that doesn't have any (practical) limits so J can blow up hardware as he pleases without my help. Last I heard he hasn't managed to blow up anything expensive, but I bet it'll come sooner or later.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

How does this roll off the tongue?

*Warp Factor III*
 Megawatt Drag Car!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Gentlemen, I will be honest, I am a little worried about torque this Megawatt drag car will be producing. We are installing new axles, and a few extra bars to the cage, I might not be able to use the Gearvendors. The new motors are Netgains HV dual comm babies, so I will have a higher RPM range and will not need the overdrive. 

*We are going to make HISTORY in 2012! *


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Gentlemen, I will be honest, I am a little worried about torque this Megawatt drag car will be producing. We are installing new axles, and a few extra bars to the cage, I might not be able to use the Gearvendors. The new motors are Netgains HV dual comm babies, so I will have a higher RPM range and will not need the overdrive.
> 
> *We are going to make HISTORY in 2012! *


Pardon the possibly ignorant question but aren't you going to be traction limited? At some point more power won't help. Is it that at the beginning you don't need more torque but further on down the track you do?

Also, what is the fastest time of any type of drag car that would be considered in your class? I'm just trying to imagine your next goal.

The good thing is that given your track record if you do have an accident no one will be hurt and the fire trucks won't have much to do. A little body work and you will be back in business. No fuel fires to worry about.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

How much torque is 7800 amps X 400 volts = 3120000 watts (3.12 mega watts ) ? looks like it's time to ditch the rear end and run 1 to 1 , one motor per wheel (rear wheels) . Makes me wonder if having 4 wheel dive would add to your hookup , can't be much weight on that front end , until the end then lots of weight for regen breaking . I think rear ends have seen the end .


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

thinking about it 4X4 may only add a little , more importantly would help to keep pointed in the right direction , with stability control computer . the same can be said for a 2X ,to a lesser extent .


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> Also, what is the fastest time of any type of drag car that would be considered in your class? I'm just trying to imagine your next goal...


I know this is a street-legal car, but it's very close in format. They have to drive 1000 miles between (I think) five drag strips to qualify. This is the winner of the 2011 Drag Week. An EV drag car could easily do the 1000 miles (it's not in one shot) with enough battery on board. I chose a street car, because a comparable, tube-chassis, door-slammer, ICE, drag car is a good bit faster...




 

Like this:


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Gentlemen, I will be honest, I am a little worried about torque this Megawatt drag car will be producing. We are installing new axles, and a few extra bars to the cage, I might not be able to use the Gearvendors. The new motors are Netgains HV dual comm babies, so I will have a higher RPM range and will not need the overdrive. **


DUDE, that is why you have a throttle and a couple of controllers with all sorts of trick limiters and other stuff. Otherwise you would just use a big off/on switch. EV dragsters will have to re-learn how to launch. You may have to have someone build you a delay system for full throttle. I can't see the torque being more massive than a AA blown fuelie, perhaps you want to go that direction.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We are not "traction limited", the car can utilize more torque with stronger axles. Torque is only a factor at low RPM's, but the more the Merry!

"good thing is that given your track record if you do have an accident"
My track record? Do you know me? I have drag raced since 1985, had three accidents in my career. 

My next goal is whipping azz! West Coast azz! 



GizmoEV said:


> Pardon the possibly ignorant question but aren't you going to be traction limited? At some point more power won't help. Is it that at the beginning you don't need more torque but further on down the track you do?
> 
> Also, what is the fastest time of any type of drag car that would be considered in your class? I'm just trying to imagine your next goal.
> 
> The good thing is that given your track record if you do have an accident no one will be hurt and the fire trucks won't have much to do. A little body work and you will be back in business. No fuel fires to worry about.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have not seen an EV that produces more torque than Nitro, Top Fuel, etc.... EV's are getting closer, and just might be there with these megawatt controllers.



piotrsko said:


> DUDE, that is why you have a throttle and a couple of controllers with all sorts of trick limiters and other stuff. Otherwise you would just use a big off/on switch. EV dragsters will have to re-learn how to launch. You may have to have someone build you a delay system for full throttle. I can't see the torque being more massive than a AA blown fuelie, perhaps you want to go that direction.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You would never launch straight with all four wheels spinning, you need two wheels to lock-up and launch the car.



aeroscott said:


> How much torque is 7800 amps X 400 volts = 3120000 watts (3.12 mega watts ) ? looks like it's time to ditch the rear end and run 1 to 1 , one motor per wheel (rear wheels) . Makes me wonder if having 4 wheel dive would add to your hookup , can't be much weight on that front end , until the end then lots of weight for regen breaking . I think rear ends have seen the end .


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We are not "traction limited", the car can utilize more torque with stronger axles. Torque is only a factor at low RPM's, but the more the Merry!


How much torque would it take to slip your tires on a well prepared track?
Gerhard


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You would never launch straight with all four wheels spinning, you need two wheels to lock-up and launch the car.


See your point. A very good traction control will be necessary which I tend to associate with AC drives , but not necessarily excluding DC with encoders / resolvers . Has there been any DC EV drives set up this way ?


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> See your point. A very good traction control will be necessary which I tend to associate with AC drives , but not necessarily excluding DC with encoders / resolvers . Has there been any DC EV drives set up this way ?


 The same tone ring that comes on rear axles for ABS braking controls can be used in an EV dragster to limit torque to what the rubber can effectively transfer to the forward acceleration of the vehicle. Given that you will most likely use a spool like Jon Walen does the one tone ring in the rear would be sufficient for the slicks. Because wheel speed and vehicle speed are closely coupled after the tires "hook" fast acting PID loops to the controller should give some really good consistent times that are mostly related to tire temperature and track conditions. You would want your traction controller to be comparing the front wheel tone ring signal to the back axle tone ring to detect and prevent unwanted incipient real wheel slippage. (once you are out of the bleach box)


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

coulombKid said:


> [snip]Given that you will most likely use a spool like Jon Walen [...]


John Wayland?

Actually, the White Zombie is a street car so he runs a Detriot Locker, not a spool. These units make an interesting chunk, chunk, chunk sound as the outside tire is released in steps while going around a corner.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We are not "traction limited", the car can utilize more torque with stronger axles. Torque is only a factor at low RPM's, but the more the Merry!


That's good. I just wondered how close you were. At some amount of torque you will be traction limited. 



> "good thing is that given your track record if you do have an accident"
> My track record? Do you know me? I have drag raced since 1985, had three accidents in my career.


You totally took what I said the wrong way. I have seen video of one time when your car flipped over. There was no one hurt, no flame, no oil slick to clean up, no fire, no plasma ball, etc.... For that you are to be commended. Take "track record" how ever you want and if one accident with minimal mishap doesn't count as worthy of being called a track record then chock that up to my ignorance but don't take it as a slam.

I'm sorry I can't seem to phrase a truly innocent question without it being taken wrong as this isn't the first time you haven't understood me.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

GizmoEV said:


> That's good. I just wondered how close you were. At some amount of torque you will be traction limited.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of my co-workers almost flipped one when the pins were left out of the wheelie bars. When the car was at 60 degrees elevation a photographer caught it and you may have seen the shot in vintage drag magazines.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> I'm sorry I can't seem to phrase a truly innocent question without it being taken wrong as this isn't the first time you haven't understood me.


Don't worry, Ron takes 50% of all innocent statements as an attack.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> How much torque would it take to slip your tires on a well prepared track?
> Gerhard


f1 tires - k up to 4... 
and up to 40% slip can not lower, but increase tractive effort
all tricky and all dpends - could be about 4g limits 

interesting what Ron's particular tires can do 
may be hook-up to "russian dyno" on track once and see? : ))))








from Todds post: - 
209.1mph/6.95s a= 13.449m/s2 / 9.8= 1.37g
232mph/6.26s a=10.58m/s2=1.69g

seems like traction not limiting factor - only tractive effort - power (tq & rpm)

anyway, T.Lynch would beet best jet fighters on on 1/4 mi (1.69g vs 1.61g-top F22) : ))) 

F22 (mach 2.25): thrust to weight ratio: 1.61 empty - 0.8 max take-off weight
70,000 lbf; 43430(83500)lbs
F15 (mach 2.5): t/w 1.25 empty, 0.5 max take-off


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Only the ones from Northwest USA posers.



JRP3 said:


> Don't worry, Ron takes 50% of all innocent statements as an attack.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

We run 14" wide slicks by 33", once they are hot and sticky they will grap and launch. The torque we will be producing will not break these baby loose if the burnout is done correctly, that is why your rear end, 4 link, tires etc.... are sooo important. If I ran 10.5's I might have a traction problem, but not with 14" slicks.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Ron, you can hook-up such gismo (dyno-meter?) in your garage... how much did you pull? 
if it embarrassing figure - you can just tell you don't even wanna try...
: )))


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

gor said:


> Ron, you can hook-up such gismo (dyno-meter?) in your garage... how much did yo pull?
> if it embarrassing figure - you can just tell you don't even wanna try...
> : )))


It is top secret info, sorry. You must wait for the 2012 Season and watch car in action!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Please fellows, stick with the topic, my car is not the topic on this thread. I will no longer answer any additional questions about my car on this thread. Let's stick to the MEGAWATT CONTROLLER.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> from Todds post: -
> 209.1mph/6.95s a= 13.449m/s2 / 9.8= 1.37g
> 232mph/6.26s a=10.58m/s2=1.69g
> 
> seems like traction not limiting factor - only tractive effort - power (tq & rpm)...


I'm limited on time to get into this right now but, from a glance, it looks like you're basically talking about an average over the course of the run. What happens at the starting line is a different matter, especially on a bar-n-slick drag car. On the outer extreme, Top Fuel is pulling g-forces that are approaching the limits of what the human body can tolerate. Even on a lesser car, the force is, perhaps exponentially, greater during launch.




 
They experience even greater forces when they pull the chute on the other end. Your math is fun to look at guys, but you're leaving out a lot of what makes a drag race a drag race. Also, there are a number of incorrect facts bouncing around in this thread. Science, math, and theories are only as good as the information you input, and there is a lot of critical info missing...

For one thing you can't just calculate contact patch, theoretical torque numbers, etc, and figure out the limits of traction with a car like Ron's. Tire size, compound, atmospheric conditions, track composition, condition, and prep, chassis type, setup, and condition - all things that come into play. Again, on somewhat elevated levels of performance, here's what's happening when he launches. Remember, that's at 1000 frames per second.




 
Also Ron, 10.5 tires can handle a lot more than you're giving them credit for. The (low) 6-second 10.5 guys are putting massive torque through them. When those cars leave, with their two-steps engaged, they are in the meat of their torque curves nearly as fast as an electric motor. I just went for a ride in a 400+hp turbo Civic Sunday. When the two-step is engaged the motor sits at the predesignated RPM, the turbo is completely spooled up, and max torque is there. It's just much more dramatic than a completely silent, punch it and go, electric motor.

There's a lot of mention of instantaneous torque being an advantage for drag racing, but modern boosted ICE powertrains and controllers make that a moot point - they're on boost and at full torque quicker than you would believe. It's an advantage for street cars because you don't have to spool the engine up to find torque, just drive away.

Again, don't get offended by what I am saying guys, I'm building a freakin electric race car! I obviously believe in the potential and benefits. I'm just trying to get rid of some of misconceptions.

AWD was also discounted a bit here. The biggest reason NHRA is RWD in the top classes is because they want it that way. They're also not allowed to use traction control, modern electronics, etc. They prefer antiquated technology. They do make excellent use of that old crap though.  I don't have time to track down the videos right now, but I've seen them with with massive power AWD vehicles launching straight as an arrow. What's really impressive is they often launch as straight and hard on street tires as some do on drag radials and slicks. The last one I saw was a 600hp AWD Civic (with a mild factory-based chassis/suspension) that pulled a 1.58 60ft, on 225 and 205 street radials. That's in the same ballpark as WZ with a 4-link and drag radials...


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Only the ones from Northwest USA posers.


 Oh come now Ron, you don't discriminate, you don't mind from which country the comment comes from


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

Todd, sure, its average - simplified a+b/2, steady load
rule of thumb also - reserve of strength of components - 1:4 of ave (load spikes) 

to go dipper - do we have actual loads on such runs?
btw. since we discussing high performance megawatt controller on high performance megawatt car applications - it's not out off topic


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> ...to go dipper - do we have actual loads on such runs?
> btw...


I doubt you'll ever have access to it. Most racers are super secretive. Making some information more "open source" would actually benefit them, but secrecy is ingrained in the mentality of many forms of racing - especially drag racing.





gor said:


> ... since we discussing high performance megawatt controller on high performance megawatt car applications - it's not out off topic


Agreed. I think an indepth discussion about electric racing is long overdue, but the information needed to have it isn't available. I don't think the potential of existing technology was fully realized, and now the technological bar is being raised quite significantly. I think the results will be impressive, weighed against what has been done heretofore, but based on the theoretical potential of a megawatt of power???


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

If you pull 9g's for 1 second is that 32 feet per second times 9 = 180 ish mph ? this would not be done with out down force and /or thrust fans .


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

aeroscott said:


> If you pull 9g's for 1 second is that 32 feet per second times 9 = 180 ish mph ? this would not be done with out down force and /or thrust fans .


Closer to an average speed for the second of 196 MPH. 
It would actually be above 300 mph at the one second instant of time. You'd need rocket boosters or a rail gun to pull it off. Much akin to a steam catapult on an aircraft carrier launching a VolksWagon. Fun to watch. Bad to ride.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

The important part is about creating over 1g is deceleration in a panic stop . 2 or 3 g's is more like it. I just chose 9 as a upper limit for humans and a number to work . As I think about creating low pressure under the car ,every square inch bears down creating huge down force with much greater braking force/regen power = more fan power = more down force etc. the limits will be in the motors and how much "weight" the car can take .


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Back to the subject at hand...

I just completed the last major task to make the Soliton Shiva a reality: laying out the adapter board so our existing main control board can talk to 8 IGBTs. 

Going to spend the day doing something else then come back and double-check my work this evening before sending it off to the board manufacturer on Monday morning. Depending on how much I am willing to spend on the boards, I can have them as soon as Tuesday ($1000 ea.) or as late as Friday ($150 ea.). Since we've only received pre-payment for 1.8 controllers, I think I'll go for a Friday delivery...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I didn't know you were offering eight tenths of a controller as an option.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't know you were offering eight tenths of a controller as an option.


Sure, we just run it through the bandsaw...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

How much for the piece with the fans?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> How much for the piece with the fans?


No fans on Shiva... if you want to play with 1MW you must use liquid cooling.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

The "ONE" belongs to me.  Don't screw it up now. lol Nice to see the progress.  . . now get back to work Jeff. 

Cheers.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> The "ONE" belongs to me.  Don't screw it up now. lol Nice to see the progress.  . . now get back to work Jeff.
> 
> Cheers.


I didn't find any mistakes on the adapter board during my review, and that, of course, worries me... Oh well, only one way to find out if it works or not...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Fire it up! Any idea when we will have a completed product? Just ordered the VFN 2011 Camaro Body, trying to spread the money around to make all happy. More coming your way again soon! 



Tesseract said:


> I didn't find any mistakes on the adapter board during my review, and that, of course, worries me... Oh well, only one way to find out if it works or not...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Fire it up! Any idea when we will have a completed product? Just ordered the VFN 2011 Camaro Body, trying to spread the money around to make all happy. More coming your way again soon!


While I was at the shop today I saw our assembly tech extraordinaire, Kevin, working on a Big Sol (er, Shiva). All of the fiddly bits - like plastic insulators, custom bulkhead terminals, etc. - have been completed so everyone really isy waiting on me. The special adapter board to control 8 IGBTs should arrive by Tuesday of next week so I should be able to populate it with parts and test it a couple days later.

With any luck, the first dyno run of Big Sol (er, Shiva) will occur next Friday!

More likely, though, is that I will discover a mistake in the adapter board... It usually takes me 3 times to get a board just right.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay Cool, my Christmas present is moving forward! 



Tesseract said:


> While I was at the shop today I saw our assembly tech extraordinaire, Kevin, working on a Big Sol (er, Shiva). All of the fiddly bits - like plastic insulators, custom bulkhead terminals, etc. - have been completed so everyone really isy waiting on me. The special adapter board to control 8 IGBTs should arrive by Tuesday of next week so I should be able to populate it with parts and test it a couple days later.
> 
> With any luck, the first dyno run of Big Sol (er, Shiva) will occur next Friday!
> 
> More likely, though, is that I will discover a mistake in the adapter board... It usually takes me 3 times to get a board just right.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> With any luck, the first dyno run of Big Sol (er, Shiva) will occur next Friday!


Hey Jeff, what's on the sched today?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yep, the prototype is almost assembled so it will be tested today. Not fully dyno tested, mind you, more just to make sure all 8 IGBTs are firing properly, the current sensor and temperature monitors are working, the precharge circuit doesn't blow up from having to deal with 4x the capacitance, etc.

If everything checks out then we will build a cooling system and add more batteries to bring the system voltage above the current maximum of 345V.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

So far we have been able to conclude that the evnetics site is a black hole for laptop chargers so we're having a brief recess while Jeffrey is fetching a new charger to sacrif... power his laptop so intercontinental communication can be re-established.

One would think that a site totally devoted to battery powered vehicles could've figured out a way to power a small laptop by bits and pieces lying around, but apparently not so. Me, I'm having a quick dinner break while waiting.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

First run!










Only 60 Amp and 120 Watt but still. It ran.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

oh ya baby....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

First the good news: the switching waveform at 30V/150A and with 7 IGBTS firing (out of 8, one IGBT was "pre-zapped") was textbook perfect. In other words, the really expensive part of the controller - the power section - works.

The bad news: the adapter board (first revision) I had to make for Shiva has a few errors which will need to be corrected before releasing any of these beasts into the wild. I was able to kludge the board enough to get the controller to work today, but I wouldn't want to take the current up too high as one of the errors is in the current sense amplifier. Another error is more of an oversight on my part - the main control board was designed to drive two Tyco/Kilovac EV200 contactors with coil economizers installed; the Gigavac contactors don't have an economizer and draw a lot more current... they also kick back something fierce when turned off despite (supposedly) having a TransZorb inside. 

I'm taking baby steps testing Shiva because each one is so damn expensive. It would really suck to blow up a few thousand dollars worth of IGBTs and pc boards because of carelessness/impatience. The zapped 8th IGBT could have caused total disaster today if I had connected the prototype to a real battery pack instead of a current-limited power supply.

Otherwise I can truly say that Shiva officially works.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Sounds exciting. How about some more eye-candy??


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Any more news?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Any more news?


Nothing revolutionary. Jeffrey has done some hardware modifications after what we learned from the previous test and some more testing will be done today. Hopefully things will improve...


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

We can't wait for the results.
GIMMEE GIMMEE GIIIMMMEEE


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Just got this log from one of the first test runs "for real", ie with some useful power output.










Aaaaalmost 1 kA! 

The sudden current drop at ~98.5 seconds was because the temp derating kicked in and there weren't anyone defined for Shiva so it picked the default that happens to be Jr. 600 Amps max, oupsie.

Still, progress. It runs even if we're taking it carefully and have a bit to go before we're even close to those MW...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Now for some serious kick ass!










200 kW, 1700 Amps run. The limiting factors were that the settings for the battery pack was max 1000 Amps and the Shiva ran without water cooling and, of course, no fans as well. So 1700 Amps for over 3 seconds and kept running for over 9 additional seconds at >1kA with no way of dumping the excessive heat. Pretty ... I was gonna say cool, but rather the opposite I guess.

Second run:










About 4.5 seconds run at 1700 Amps (1000 battery Amps being the limit again), then the fuse blew...

Here's a close up:










This is the caps bouncing back, not the batteries (fuse gone, remember?). I've never seen logs like this before, ever. This is gonna be awesome when we can start testing on a battery pack that can dish out more than "just" 1kA... 

Ron? No drooling! You'll short out the keyboard!


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Awesomesauce, you guys do good work!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The good news: So far, Shiva works at up to 1750A on the motor side (1000A on the battery side) and 340V input (which sags down to 200-220V, depending on how long the chargers get to recharge our much abused dyno pack). The output waveform looks good, and besides a couple of minor kludges, everything works as designed (though, perhaps, not quite as intended).

The bad news: Our dyno and its battery pack are not even remotely powerful enough to test this beast. The twin WarP-9 motors are wired in parallel so they ought to be capable of handling 1500A each for a few seconds, but even at 1500A total (ie - half as much) the hydraulic pressure had already shot deep into the danger zone on our dyno. 

The pack sagged something awful as well: dropping from 340V during charging down to 200V, the max current LVC setting, at 1000A.

And then the fuse blew...

So, "we're gonna need a bigger boat", methinks. 

Below is a cheesy YouTube video of the second to last test of the day (the last test was similar, except the fuse blew). Note the sarcastic banter that is the hallmark of our dysfunctional work environment...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have some batteries that will feed two Shivas, them monsters will roar with 5000 battery amps. My batteries are just waiting for good partners! 



Tesseract said:


> The good news: So far, Shiva works at up to 1750A on the motor side (1000A on the battery side) and 340V input (which sags down to 200-220V, depending on how long the chargers get to recharge our much abused dyno pack). The output waveform looks good, and besides a couple of minor kludges, everything works as designed (though, perhaps, not quite as intended).
> 
> The bad news: Our dyno and its battery pack are not even remotely powerful enough to test this beast. The twin WarP-9 motors are wired in parallel so they ought to be capable of handling 1500A each for a few seconds, but even at 1500A total (ie - half as much) the hydraulic pressure had already shot deep into the danger zone on our dyno.
> 
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Drooling is an understatement! It's going to be a Wonderful Christmas!  



Qer said:


> Now for some serious kick ass!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

As a sugestion why not use an inductor (in a tank of water) to simulate the motor load? Yes I know its not the same but will let you run the controller flat out for prolonged periods to test the integrity of the power stage. I did this with my last liquid cooled build and i could literally put a brick on the accelerator and run it at over 500 motor amps (about 25% pwm on the inductor i used) for an hour. Makes an excellent water heater as a side benefit!


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Better yet, build a regenerating dyno to dump most of the power back to the pack, you guys are wasting far too much electricity! That way, you get to work more on your regen function, save power, can use a very small pack (25% of rated power), and the only heat created is the true wastage!
I can help with dyno DA and software..

Steve


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Jozzer said:


> Better yet, build a regenerating dyno to dump most of the power back to the pack, you guys are wasting far too much electricity!


Excellent idea.

Of course, in order to test a 1 MW controller, you then need two 1 MW motors (one acting as a generator), and a 1 MW regen-capable controller for that generator. The hardware starts adding up pretty quick.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Indeed, my 100KW dyno cost a few thousand in parts (not to mention a LOT of my time developing the DA hardware/software), but it was still many times cheaper than buying a 100KW dyno in, and to reach 1MW (or even come colse) it may be the only real option..
At least they know someone who makes 1MW controllers already (presuming they can get that power out in reverse also, they have at least had the Soliton working in regen).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Guys... 

You can't just use an inductor for the load on a motor controller - all you end up testing is the freewheeling diode because the duty cycle remains extremely low; the switch is hardly stressed at all. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a controller that had only been tested in this manner.

I have also given much thought to a regenerating dyno over the last couple of *years*; I would have to be daft/incompetent to have not thought of this!?! One member here - batterypoweredtoad - even loaned/donated a huge 13" GE SepEx motor to the cause. I could bolt it onto our existing dyno setup and then kludge together a field controller along with a Soliton1 in boost mode. That would basically double our dyno's power capability, which would still be half what is needed to test Shiva.

Any other solution would be prohibitively expensive.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Sorry Jeff, didn't mean to imply you were daft, we all know that's not the case
So you'd need a second 13" motor on the regen side...any chance Netgain would supply one (perhaps you can give them REAL data plots for their website for each of thier motors in return)?




Tesseract said:


> Guys...
> 
> You can't just use an inductor for the load on a motor controller - all you end up testing is the freewheeling diode because the duty cycle remains extremely low; the switch is hardly stressed at all. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a controller that had only been tested in this manner.
> 
> ...


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

How about contacting an elevator company to see if they know of any empty buildings with elevators you could play with. They use HUGE motors and are ready made to vary the resistance. Remove some counterweights, load up the cargo compartment, etc... (assuming of course the motors are DC)


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

THere's a world record to be had there, fastest 0-60 in an elevator



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> How about contacting an elevator company to see if they know of any empty buildings with elevators you could play with. They use HUGE motors and are ready made to vary the resistance. Remove some counterweights, load up the cargo compartment, etc... (assuming of course the motors are DC)


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Jozzer said:


> THere's a world record to be had there, fastest 0-60 in an elevator


Lol-using elevators may not be a reasonable idea, but at least it is an amusing one!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> How about contacting an elevator company ... (assuming of course the motors are DC)


I'd guess that 99%+ would be AC. But I'd be interested to hear from someone that actually knows.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> I'd guess that 99%+ would be AC. But I'd be interested to hear from someone that actually knows.


Just because I was curious (and because the internet is an awesome and completely addicting place) I looked it up and found this powerpoint: 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elevator-world.com%2FExtras%2FOct07%2FElevatorDrives.ppt&ei=flbETtbMLoi4tgfOnf2oDQ&usg=AFQjCNE-l4RfvFiznFKSo1TryQYoyQzJ3g

Lol-nice succinct link.

Basically, most are AC now with a few large buildings still stuck with old DC shunt motor setups.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Guys...
> 
> You can't just use an inductor for the load on a motor controller - all you end up testing is the freewheeling diode because the duty cycle remains extremely low; the switch is hardly stressed at all. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a controller that had only been tested in this manner.
> 
> ...



Why not call up a motor shop to allow you to use their dynometer? I do not know how much they would charge you, but you should still give it shot. They may even have DC power supplies strong enough to power your SHIVA controller.

Here is a motor shop with lots of branches in the Florida area that you can contact: 

http://www.tawinc.com/AboutTAW/ContactUs.aspx


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys
_Why not call up a motor shop to allow you to use their dynometer?_

I doubt you will find one with a big enough dyno - however Cummins in Northampton England do have 4,000+ Hp dyno's
I am fairly sure they have that size in Columbus Indiana as well

Caterpillar, Detroit, Komatsu ... will all have similar abilities 

Anybody on the forum with contacts? - mine are 10 years old


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Dennis said:


> Why not call up a motor shop to allow you to use their dynometer? I do not know how much they would charge you, but you should still give it shot. They may even have DC power supplies strong enough to power your SHIVA controller.
> 
> Here is a motor shop with lots of branches in the Florida area that you can contact:
> 
> http://www.tawinc.com/AboutTAW/ContactUs.aspx


Hmm, Tampa Armature Works isn't too far from my house and their website says they can do full load testing AND can repair DC motors up to 30,000+ HP. That might be a good option for testing the controllers once the design is finalized (not so practical right now while I am hunting for noise bugs and figuring out - along with Qer - what parts of the code don't much like Shiva, however...).


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hmm, Tampa Armature Works isn't too far from my house and their website says they can do full load testing AND can repair DC motors up to 30,000+ HP. That might be a good option for testing the controllers once the design is finalized (not so practical right now while I am hunting for noise bugs and figuring out - along with Qer - what parts of the code don't much like Shiva, however...).


Man o Man, the idea of Dyno verified proof of 3000 amp capabilities makes me giggle.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Man, 30000 hp. Really puts things in perspective...

- You think we got a MW out of the controller?
- Yeah, I think so! I saw the needle twitch.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Guys
> _Why not call up a motor shop to allow you to use their dynometer?_
> 
> I doubt you will find one with a big enough dyno - however Cummins in Northampton England do have 4,000+ Hp dyno's
> ...



Most motor shops can easily test motors up to 5,000 HP or more at full load.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dennis

_Most motor shops can easily test motors up to 5,000 HP or more at full load_

Now you have got me curious - how do they test 5,000 Hp?? 
- that's a BIG dyno - 

When I was in engine testing there were very few dyno's that size - that's a million+ dollar machine


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Dennis
> 
> _Most motor shops can easily test motors up to 5,000 HP or more at full load_
> 
> ...




http://www.amerimexinc.com/eng_LoadTesting.html Give them a call if you need a motor tested up to 5,000 HP full load on their dyno.  

At Tampa Armature Works I think they have more than enough dyno to test Jeff's SHIVA controller.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dennis

_Most motor shops can easily test motors up to 5,000 HP or more at full load. _

Amerimexinc - claim to have - "the largest motor testing facility in the USA - up to 5,000Hp"

Does not sound like - _most motor shops_ to me!

Personally I think you would have more luck getting on the Cummins (or Cat or...) dyno - they are less likely to see you as competition


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Dennis
> 
> _Most motor shops can easily test motors up to 5,000 HP or more at full load. _
> 
> ...



I do not understand what you mean by a motor repair shop seeing someone as "competition" when they are the customer that wants to test their motor. 

Don't just limit your views to the USA. You have to figure other countries too have motor shops. 

Actually 5,000 HP dyno for electric motors are far more common than you may think: 

http://www.awdynamometer.com/electric_motor_dynes.aspx
http://www.taylordyno.com/catalog/electric-motor-testing-systems


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dennis

That is a 5000Hp water brake dyno - similar to the ones I used at Cummins
As well as the dyno you need to be able to dissipate the heat 
That's over a million dollars for the cooling tower alone - 
at least its not as bad as an engine dyno when for 5000Hp you need to be able to dissipate 15,000hp in heat energy!

that website claimed to have the only one of that size in the USA - I suspect there are a few more scattered about the USA but they will not be common!!!!!!

Saying most motor shops will have such a beast is a bit like saying most garages will have a multimillion dollar emissions tunnel 

You may be right about a motor shop not seeing it as competition but in my experience people from the "same industry" are treated with suspicion whereas people from different industries are more welcome - when I was at Cummins people from petrol (gas) engine manufacturers wanting a look around were welcomed - Cat or Detroit people would not have been alowed across the threshold!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Don't know if it would be suitable for Shiva but Lee Hart on Evtech suggested someone use a motor's field and a resistor heater in series for a dyno.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> Don't know if it would be suitable for Shiva but Lee Hart on Evtech suggested someone use a motor's field and a resistor heater in series for a dyno.


That's an acceptable go/no-go test method, but to quote myself on the nearly same suggestion made earlier in this thread:



Tesseract said:


> ...
> You can't just use an inductor for the load on a motor controller - all you end up testing is the freewheeling diode because the duty cycle remains extremely low; the switch is hardly stressed at all. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a controller that had only been tested in this manner.
> ...


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

But with the added resistance you can actually test the duty too. Jack bauer got about 25% duty at 500 motor amps due to the resistance from his inductors. Add some more series resistance and the duty can go higher. Like some Nichrome submersed in water.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

> Like some Nichrome submersed in water.


Or through a ceramic heater


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

If they decide to test the soliton like that, it will increase global warming.


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## Gary B (Jun 2, 2011)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/member.php?u=3694Just in trying to be consistent, it seems that "Big Sol" is intended especially for series wound brushed DC motors and NOT PM type brushed DC motors. It is confusing to me because larger and larger brushed PM type DC motors are being manufactured, and some of them seem to me to be appropriate for EV conversions. - Part 2: does Evnetics make controllers for brushed PM type DC motors? - (I will also go more directly to Evnetics to check this out.) Tesseract helped me out before and i believe he works at Evnetics. He will know if they make them. (Thanks again, Tesseact). - Gary B.


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## Gary B (Jun 2, 2011)

Just in the interest of consistency. I believe "Big Sol" is intended for series wound brushed DC motors, NOT PM type brushed DC motors. - I mention this only because it is confusing to me. There are larger and larger PM type brushed DC motors that seem to be to be appropriate for EV modifications. It would be good to know what such controllers are designed for. - Does Evnetics make a controller for PM type brushed DC motors? - (I will go directly to Evnetics to check this out.) - (Thanks again, Tessaeract.) - Gary B.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

I've run the Soliton with PM Brushed motors (on a dyno only) and they behaved well together..

Steve


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The Soliton 1 is a much smaller animal than the Big Sol/ Shiva. My new Warp motors being built by Netgain are design with additional brushes to support such a monster controller. You also have to add in the shear strength of the motors shafts.



Jozzer said:


> I've run the Soliton with PM Brushed motors (on a dyno only) and they behaved well together..
> 
> Steve


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What does that have to do with using a Soliton with a PM brushed motor?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I doubt most motors will be able to handle Big Sol.



JRP3 said:


> What does that have to do with using a Soliton with a PM brushed motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

While that is somewhat true, (I'm sure output is adjustable), it still has nothing to do with the ability of the Soliton line of controllers to run brushed PM motors.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I think we've now maxed out the dyno and battery pack pretty much...










350 kW and 2054 Ampere. And a pack voltage drop from 350 to 150 Volt...

Oh well, at least the controller isn't the bottle neck as you can see.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Over 2000A!! You are in the good way. Great work! 

But what will be the next test if battery pack don't play fair with the megawatt Soliton?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yabert said:


> But what will be the next test if battery pack don't play fair with the megawatt Soliton?


Stick it in Seb's Porsche.  . . . how much battery does he have??


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yeah, putting the prototype into the 911 is the logical next step. It's the only economically viable one, anyway.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Will it fit?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Will it fit?


Doesn't look like it will to me, but that's Seb's problem now!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Will it fit?


You ask the wrong question. It's Seb we're talking about so somehow it WILL fit if I know him right. The question you SHOULD ask is "Will the clutch survive?" and based on earlier test runs of Solitons in Seb's vehicles I'd say the answer probably is "No".



JRP3 said:


>


That's a very, errr, alternative solution. But you get a golden star for excellent air cooling possibilities. Too bad Shiva is water cooled...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...The question you SHOULD ask is "Will the clutch survive?" and based on earlier test runs of Solitons in Seb's vehicles I'd say the answer probably is "No"...


That's what I was thinking. Next in line to be destroyed is the transaxle. Sounds like a call to Renegade Hybrids is in order. You really need a direct drive test mule, so you can avoid wasting parts to find its limits.

Are you guys any closer to determining the (voltage/current) specs?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Are you guys any closer to determining the (voltage/current) specs?


I'm still aiming for a maximum operating voltage of 425V and a maximum current of 3000A for 10 seconds. The switching waveforms on Shiva are the cleanest yet with virtually no overshoot or ringing, so 425V looks doable, if a bit lofty. The 3000A goal is practically a shoe-in since I have so much spare ampacity. The only reason I won't allow 3000A for more than 10 seconds is because the bus plates don't have enough i²t rating for continuous duty at that current (they'd have to be 0.5" thick for that, and Shiva is already heavy enough).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I'm still aiming for a maximum operating voltage of 425V and a maximum current of 3000A for 10 seconds. The switching waveforms on Shiva are the cleanest yet with virtually no overshoot or ringing, so 425V looks doable, if a bit lofty. The 3000A goal is practically a shoe-in since I have so much spare ampacity. The only reason I won't allow 3000A for more than 10 seconds is because the bus plates don't have enough i²t rating for continuous duty at that current (they'd have to be 0.5" thick for that, and Shiva is already heavy enough).


Sounds good. Thanks.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

7 seconds @ 3000 amps is all I need! 

I am building the pack at 5000BA @ 400 volts to compensate for some sag. My new motors will handle between 370 volts to 400 volts, new style brushes from Helwig will do the trick! Jeff remember the conversation with Tom Brunka? He is working with Netgain on these new motors.

George has decided on a 3 brush 11" Warp Motor that Warfield claims will handle 400 volts. This new design will maintain the large 11" armature, but will be 2" longer in length. 



Tesseract said:


> I'm still aiming for a maximum operating voltage of 425V and a maximum current of 3000A for 10 seconds. The switching waveforms on Shiva are the cleanest yet with virtually no overshoot or ringing, so 425V looks doable, if a bit lofty. The 3000A goal is practically a shoe-in since I have so much spare ampacity. The only reason I won't allow 3000A for more than 10 seconds is because the bus plates don't have enough i²t rating for continuous duty at that current (they'd have to be 0.5" thick for that, and Shiva is already heavy enough).


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Food for SHIVA!*


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Looks electrifying!


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

lithiumaniacsevracing said:


> *food for shiva!*


u mean ... food for sol ...?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gor said:


> u mean ... food for sol ...?


"Big Sol" was always an informal name until we came up with something proper. I suggested "Soliton Shiva - Destroyer of Motors" after the Hindu goddess of destruction. Seb liked it so that seems to be the winner (for now).


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> "Big Sol" was always an informal name until we came up with something proper. I suggested "Soliton Shiva - Destroyer of Motors" after the Hindu goddess of destruction. Seb liked it so that seems to be the winner (for now).


LOL, I believe gor was trying to make a joke. Food for sol = Food for the soul.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Mighty quiet over here, what's the latest with Shiva?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

We've taken the prototype up to 375V and 2000A but we keep blowing up batteries (4 so far) so it seems we've reached the limit of our dyno's battery pack.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Them Headways won't cut the mustard! You need a real battery pack. Just set the software to operate at 3000amps and I'll slap it in! I am sure Shiva is overbuilt and will handle the amperage. 



Tesseract said:


> We've taken the prototype up to 375V and 2000A but we keep blowing up batteries (4 so far) so it seems we've reached the limit of our dyno's battery pack.


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Gentlemen there are many different types of dyno's out there to test on, back a few years ago we use to run in and test super gas engines on an air stator housing from a helicopter don't know which one but it worked very well for what we used it for. Until it was stolen and recovered a few years later. we were testing a few exhibition fuel motors and forgot the air exhaust turn up and sent a poor guy and his dog to Oz without a twister just as the dyno decided to go into boost and start across the shop requiring a fast shut down.When we all recovered from our strokes and heart attacks we reattached the dyno to the shop floor so it lives happily ever after. but back to the original point here in Indiana there are quite a few top fuel teams with VERY large dynos some reputed to be over 6000 HP. You might contact some of them and see if they might donate some time in their dyno cells and also show them what can be done with battery power. Duke


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Them Headways won't cut the mustard! You need a real battery pack. Just set the software to operate at 3000amps and I'll slap it in! I am sure Shiva is overbuilt and will handle the amperage.


I'm not really worried about the power stage design - Shiva is, indeed, overbuilt - rather, I am more concerned that electrical noise from switching 400V and/or 3000A will cause the microcontroller to lock up and other strange/catastrophic errors. Needless to say, once Shiva is installed in a vehicle it's a lot more difficult to ferret out those noise problems with a scope or broadband antenna and spectrum analyzer.




lockduke said:


> ...You might contact some of them and see if they might donate some time in their dyno cells and also show them what can be done with battery power. Duke


Finding a dyno capable of absorbing ~1500hp is one of our problems, yes; coming up with a battery pack capable of dishing out 1500hp is yet another. This latter problem is why taking the controller to a motor repair ship as suggested earlier in the thread is a no-go for now - they don't have a 300-400V supply capable of 3000A on hand.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Them Headways won't cut the mustard! You need a real battery pack. Just set the software to operate at 3000amps and I'll slap it in! I am sure Shiva is overbuilt and will handle the amperage.


 Ron,
Why don't you send them a battery pack?
Gerhard


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## clonezero (Oct 16, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our main products as of now are high power brushed DC motor controllers for electric vehicle applications, the 300kW _Soliton1_ and the 150kW _Soliton Jr_. Upcoming products are the as-yet-unnamed 1MW (!!!) racing controller (tentatively, "Big Sol"), programmable charger and 13.8V output wide-range input dc/dc converter.
> 
> http://www.evnetics.com/


What is your approx. release date on your charger and dc/dc converter?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Progress on Shiva is moving along in fits and starts. Today was spent hunting down a noise problem now that popped up after taking the prototype apart and reassembling it. It looks like the freewheeling diodes are ringing just a tiny bit, but it's enough to wreak havoc elsewhere. Qer sent over a tweaked version of the code that ignored the affected signal line and that confirmed it was the culprit. I'll probably need to slow down the IGBTs a little bit and revise the interface board, but in the meantime the prototype is going into Seb's 911 tomorrow.

Here's the final version of the prototype unit assembled on the test bench:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are those lifting eyes? That may be a first for an EV controller


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Are those lifting eyes? That may be a first for an EV controller


Nah, those are trimpots for min and max throttle travel.

Everything is bigger with Shiva!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are those lifting eyes? That may be a first for an EV controller


Yep... Shiva's a beast.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Well, beta testing of Shiva in the 911 sure didn't last long... Seb managed to lunch the tranny - it now sounds like a blender full of nuts and bolts, apparently - after repeatedly applying full throttle in 1st gear with the emergency brake lever yanked up as far as it would go.

That said, Shiva performed perfectly fine for those brief moments... even RPM limiting managed to save the motors from exploding after the tranny went to auto parts heaven. I was curious whether the TACH input would be overwhelmed by noise, so at least that question was answered by today's otherwise extremely abbreviated testing session.

Guess it's Ron's turn to destroy stuff... Oh, and I think we'll simply name the controller "Shiva the Destroyer"... since she's clearly not limited to motors...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

*2590 Ampere!*










Then Shiva turned the gear box in the poor car into a very expensive (and heavy) maracas. That's what happens at ~454.3 when RPM shoots up like crazy and after 454.6 the over-rev kicks in, killing the current since the motor ran at over 6000 RPM.

Shiva really deserves it's name...


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Holy Bejesus!!!


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Or we could just call it ... can-o-whoop-ass.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Holy Bejesus!!!


Well said... 

Oh, as promised, here are a couple pics of Shiva installed in the 911:


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

must be the first EV that requires A/C to run


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Can we get a shot of the tranny guts?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Can we get a shot of the tranny guts?


Perhaps after it is poured into (through) a funnel? You know, shaken -- not stirred.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

well, now Ron's turn; he has no trany allready - so he nothing to worry about


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gor - I think Ron has a Gear Vendors Over/Under drive, so he does, indeed, have a transmission for Shiva to destroy.

ElectriCar - I don't think we're going to try to crack the tranny case open. Needless to say, we won't be getting the full core charge for a replacement, either, so this little episode just cost us $3500. 

In other news, I fixed the noise issue today so it looks like Shiva is a go.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

WOW! You guys have been busy. I am thinking of removing the GearVendors, might not need it with higher voltage! 

Check my build thread, 2012 Camaro body has arrived! 



Tesseract said:


> gor - I think Ron has a Gear Vendors Over/Under drive, so he does, indeed, have a transmission for Shiva to destroy.
> 
> ElectriCar - I don't think we're going to try to crack the tranny case open. Needless to say, we won't be getting the full core charge for a replacement, either, so this little episode just cost us $3500.
> 
> In other news, I fixed the noise issue today so it looks like Shiva is a go.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am ready!



gor said:


> well, now Ron's turn; he has no trany allready - so he nothing to worry about


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

If I had an extra I would, business is bad. Money is tight, but 2012 will be one kick-azz season! 



GerhardRP said:


> Ron,
> Why don't you send them a battery pack?
> Gerhard


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

It looks like a gem! 



Tesseract said:


> Progress on Shiva is moving along in fits and starts. Today was spent hunting down a noise problem now that popped up after taking the prototype apart and reassembling it. It looks like the freewheeling diodes are ringing just a tiny bit, but it's enough to wreak havoc elsewhere. Qer sent over a tweaked version of the code that ignored the affected signal line and that confirmed it was the culprit. I'll probably need to slow down the IGBTs a little bit and revise the interface board, but in the meantime the prototype is going into Seb's 911 tomorrow.
> 
> Here's the final version of the prototype unit assembled on the test bench:


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sounds good to me! Kinda like one of my ex-girls! LOL 



Tesseract said:


> Guess it's Ron's turn to destroy stuff... Oh, and I think we'll simply name the controller "Shiva the Destroyer"... since she's clearly not limited to motors...


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Oh, as promised, here are a couple pics of Shiva installed in the 911:


Heh. I see you used the word "installed" rather loosely! 

But considering how long it stayed in the car, any further "installing" would have been somewhat wasted.

It must have been a pig getting it in through the doorways; surely you could not use engine lifters inside there.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Do you have any additional plans on testing Shiva's potential, or will I be the guinea pig? If you feel she is safe to operate, I will give them Shivas a shot! .

It will take us a month to install the body and motors, some time in Jan we will be ready to start wiring the car. I will be starting the season with my current 11" 190v Warp Motors (at Warfield getting a tune-up), George will not have the new motors out till May 2012. So, lets see what Two Shivas can give me at 190V each @ 2500 amps? should beat my time of 10 seconds with no problem, the car will be hundreds of pounds lighter.

Big problem is to trust the GearVendors????? Must call them Monday.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Pushing Shiva to her limits is pretty much up to you at this point, Ron... Is it safe to run? Sure, it's about as safe as riding a really pissed off, overly-caffeinated bull with a loaded revolver stuffed in your pants. With the hammer cocked... What Could Possibly Go Wrong?

Oh, and whatever weight you stripped from your car you just added back, and then some, with 2 Shivas.

But that's the price you pay to stuff ~1500hp into one shiny nickel-plated box.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Heh. I see you used the word "installed" rather loosely!
> 
> But considering how long it stayed in the car, any further "installing" would have been somewhat wasted.
> 
> It must have been a pig getting it in through the doorways; surely you could not use engine lifters inside there.


You have to short choke the rigging from the screw-eyes to the boom of a cherry picker. With the door off you can roll the forward support legs under the car to accomplish the install with out the assistance of a chiropractor.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> In other news, I fixed the noise issue today so it looks like Shiva is a go.


Hey Jeff,

Can you elaborate?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Elaborate on which part? The noise issue or that I deem Shiva to be in a good enough state (but perhaps not perfect) to send it outside our shop?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh, sorry. I meant the noise issue resolution. 




Tesseract said:


> Elaborate on which part? The noise issue or that I deem Shiva to be in a good enough state (but perhaps not perfect) to send it outside our shop?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Not much to say. Noise was affecting a signal line; I had Qer modify the code so it would report its status in logger and then I started tweaking stuff until logger no longer reported any errors. That the tachometer function still worked convinced me it wasn't terribly serious, since that signal line is, by it's nature, especially sensitive to noise.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wowee, blowing up a fairly tough tranny! Impressive!

I assume the car was able to drive against the parking brake? Or was it able to stop it? Does he know if one wheel was spinning or both?

I think I'm a long ways from damaging the tranny on my 911, but would still like as much data as possible! Hopefully tranny damage is a worry for me some day, too!

Something nice about the 911 is he can put in a Turbo or other newer, tougher tranny. Something nice about the Turbo Tranny is it is just 4 speeds, which would work well with an electric.


Tesseract said:


> Well, beta testing of Shiva in the 911 sure didn't last long... Seb managed to lunch the tranny - it now sounds like a blender full of nuts and bolts, apparently - after repeatedly applying full throttle in 1st gear with the emergency brake lever yanked up as far as it would go.
> 
> That said, Shiva performed perfectly fine for those brief moments... even RPM limiting managed to save the motors from exploding after the tranny went to auto parts heaven. I was curious whether the TACH input would be overwhelmed by noise, so at least that question was answered by today's otherwise extremely abbreviated testing session.
> 
> Guess it's Ron's turn to destroy stuff... Oh, and I think we'll simply name the controller "Shiva the Destroyer"... since she's clearly not limited to motors...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Wowee, blowing up a fairly tough tranny! Impressive!
> 
> I assume the car was able to drive against the parking brake? Or was it able to stop it? Does he know if one wheel was spinning or both?


Seb said that Shiva driving two WarP-9 motors in parallel easily overcame the parking brake with the tranny in 1st gear. I don't know whether both wheels were spinning or not, however, as I wasn't there when he fired up Shiva for the first (and last) time in the 911. 



DavidDymaxion said:


> Something nice about the 911 is he can put in a Turbo or other newer, tougher tranny.


Yeah, I think he is looking at 930 turbo trannies as a possible replacement.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LMFAO!

So, Shiva seems like a wild bull that needs to be tamed! 
Screw it, I am ready and willing. Spoke with Seb, he just wants to test a few more times then Shivas will head my way. 
Motors are in, body is in, damn I have a ton of work to do. 

1st test, 180 volts at 1500 motor amps per motor.
2nd test, 190 volts at 2000 motor amps per motor.
3rd test, 200 volts at 2500 motor amps per motor.

If still in one piece, then the BIG 4th test!
200 volts at 3000 motor amps per motor!!!!!!!!! 

What could possibly go wrong? 

This will be done with a 2200lbs drag car with 14" wide slicks! 



Tesseract said:


> Pushing Shiva to her limits is pretty much up to you at this point, Ron... Is it safe to run? Sure, it's about as safe as riding a really pissed off, overly-caffeinated bull with a loaded revolver stuffed in your pants. With the hammer cocked... What Could Possibly Go Wrong?
> 
> Oh, and whatever weight you stripped from your car you just added back, and then some, with 2 Shivas.
> 
> But that's the price you pay to stuff ~1500hp into one shiny nickel-plated box.


----------



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

OK so that puts you at 600KW, 60% power of the Shiva. What do you have in mind for 1MW?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Will hit the 1MW when George completes the new motors, for now I had my current motors rebuilt to sustain 200volts. Spoke with GearVendors, the say the OD unit will hold, so will maintain the same set-up, but with more amps and a larger pack.

I posted a 10.08 1/4 mile with 2000 amps and only 180 volts, should hit low 9's possible 8's with 3000 amps and 200 volts. 



ElectriCar said:


> OK so that puts you at 600KW, 60% power of the Shiva. What do you have in mind for 1MW?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

ElectriCar said:


> OK so that puts you at 600KW, 60% power of the Shiva. What do you have in mind for 1MW?


He has to wait for George to send him the newer high voltage motors before he can crank up the voltage.

Edit: Ron posted at the same time as me.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

So Ron, are you going to setup a NASA count down timer and get FAA clearance for your launch?


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> 1st test, 180 volts at 1500 motor amps per motor.
> 2nd test, 190 volts at 2000 motor amps per motor.
> 3rd test, 200 volts at 2500 motor amps per motor.
> 
> ...


I see that you will have an expensive season 2012...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Shiva was tested at 440V today with no issues. This was mainly to make sure the noise problem was truly fixed. I'll try to get log files off the dyno laptop tomorrow. So 425V as the upper operational limit is officially approved.

We're still trying to come up with a way to get to 3000A that doesn't break the bank...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Where did you get 440VDC from, rectify AC from the wall?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow! 425 volts will sure add to the top end, hope George builds these new motors well. The brushes will be Helwig, 3 on each side. 

So, let's say I get the new High Voltage motors in May, running the car with each motor being fed 3000amps/ 425volts, I see the finish line in 6 or 7 seconds. 



Tesseract said:


> Shiva was tested at 440V today with no issues. This was mainly to make sure the noise problem was truly fixed. I'll try to get log files off the dyno laptop tomorrow. So 425V as the upper operational limit is officially approved.
> 
> We're still trying to come up with a way to get to 3000A that doesn't break the bank...


----------



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Ron, those motors will be rated for that much voltage?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Where did you get 440VDC from, rectify AC from the wall?


Nah, we just added more 12V AGM batteries to our dyno's battery bank. 

I did contemplate making a rectifier for our 3Φ service but adding batteries to the dyno is easier and more flexible.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...So, let's say I get the new High Voltage motors in May, running the car with each motor being fed 3000amps/ 425volts, I see the finish line in 6 or 7 seconds.


I would plan on _eventually reaching_ a *maximum* voltage of 425V. I wouldn't start at that voltage. Additionally, the pack will sag when you start pulling heaving currents from it so the motor(s) will never see full pack voltage. The amount of sag will depend, of course, on the total resistance in the battery loop and how much current you manage to pull from it (and that will depend on track conditions, driver skill, drivetrain ratios, etc...).

Knowing that it is the drag racer's duty to push things until they break, I still would be _really_ _really_ *really* (emphasized enough?) careful about pushing the motor voltage limits. The limits published by NetGain were devised for a world in which 2000A could only be briefly reached, and packs would sag by 50% when pulling more than 1000A or so from them. Shiva laughs at such limits, and she will destroy every motor you can throw at her with gleeful abandon.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

don't forget to get good 1000 hp dyno record before you break it (i mean dyno)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Tes, how much capacitance is there in this unit? I'm asking because today I removed a 10,000uf capacitor bank from my truck which I had installed for use with my old lead pack a while back. It's installed with leads of about 1 foot from the controller terminals so as to assist the controller caps. I left it in place after I did my lithium upgrade.

After removing it today I swear it seems like it doesn't have the sudden jolt of power it had before I removed them. I'm not talking about more current during a prolonged acceleration but the instant I hit the throttle. Before if I hit the accelerator a little too hard the tires would chirp. Now it seems lethargic in comparison to before which has me thinking of taking it to a dyno and doing a few quick starts with it and without to test this. If I'm right it should affect the torque curve correct? 

This now has me wondering just how much of an affect an enlarged cap bank would do for this monster and the guy buying two for racing. Have you done any dyno research with various cap values on any of your controllers? And do you test them with lithium packs or agm's on your dyno? I have a 50 cell 200Ah pack with 4/0 cable to the controller.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Tes, how much capacitance is there in this unit? I'm asking because today I removed a 10,000uf capacitor bank from my truck which I had installed for use with my old lead pack a while back. It's installed with leads of about 1 foot from the controller terminals so as to assist the controller caps. I left it in place after I did my lithium upgrade.


For any additional capacitance to be able to assist the internal capacitor(s) inside the controller it needs to be as close to the controller as possible; as in, inside of it...  This is because the sole purpose of the input capacitance in a controller is to supply the instantaneous energy demanded by the switch which the inductance of the battery cabling would otherwise prevent from being delivered in a timely fashion.

That is to say, the capacitor needs to supply current to the switch for the amount of time it is on every switching cycle, and is subsequently recharged by the battery during the time the switch is off. In other words, all of the energy comes from the battery pack, the capacitor just smooths out the peaks and fills in the troughs, so to speak. Comparing the energy storage capability of the capacitor and the battery pack is illuminating:

The equation for the energy storage capability of a capacitor is:

Joules (Watt-seconds) = 0.5 * C * V²

The energy storage capability of a battery, of course, is found by simply multiplying its average voltage by its useful capacity in Amp-Hours.

You said you have a battery pack composed of 50 200Ah LFP cells, for 160V nominal. A 10,000uF capacitor bank charged up to 160V stores 128 Joules (aka 128 Watt-seconds).

Note that this literally means the capacitor bank could supply a 128W load for 1 second... or a 128kW load for 1 millisecond. As you can see, this is not a length of time which is meaningful to a human. It is very meaningful to a semiconductor switch going from off to one in a fraction of a microsecond, but not to a human that just floored the accelerator pedal in an EV 

In contrast, your LFP battery pack stores:

(50 x 3.2V) * 200A * 60min * 60sec = 115,200,000 Joules

So the additional energy storage capability of the capacitor amounts to a rounding error from the battery pack's point of view...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I always forget and write "watt-seconds" as "watt/seconds... just like I can never remember which lead is which on an LED...


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> ... I can never remember which lead is which on an LED...


+1 on that Tess. I resorted to remembering that the "big one" is - and the "small one" is +, similar to a AA battery.

JR


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> For any additional capacitance to be able to assist the internal capacitor(s) inside the controller it needs to be as close to the controller as possible; as in, inside of it...


Exactly, so it's within a foot with 1/0 copper cables.



Tesseract said:


> ... A 10,000uF capacitor bank charged up to 160V stores 128 Joules (aka 128 Watt-seconds).
> 
> Note that this literally means the capacitor bank could supply a 128W load for 1 second... or a 128kW load for 1 millisecond.


And I've fogotten my formulas for calculating the cycle time of a frequency. You're right that in terms of using it for energy storage it's irrelevant. However supplying a controller juice for that fraction of a millisecond it's on in each cycle is what I'm getting at. I'm no engineer, only studied electronics back in Reagans early days.  

If you have a low current controller with a normal (slow) acceleration time, it may or may not help at all, depending on the conductor size, length etc. However in my race modified higher current controller with very little ramp time, the controller needs a jolt of power which it appeared to lack after I removed them yesterday. It performed rather pedestrian compared to having them connected. 

I've driven the vehicle with the modification now for about 2000 miles on the new pack. Just on that short trip home, from the time I first pushed the pedal it seemed that way. It will go, just not nearly as sprightly as before. Again, not speaking of a prolonged acceleration, just the response as soon as you hit the throttle, something that may benefit drag racing enthusiasts. Of course I'm an old street racer so I've no real knowledge of true drag racing, especially electric ones!

So if you have 128kw available for .001 seconds, how much is available for the on period of Soliton controllers? I know it's enough to give the rotor a quick yank and get it started turning until the pack can take over and that's what I'm talking about. An example is my Curtis 1231C. With the factory caps which I think is 16,000uf plus my 10,000 almost fully charged via the precharge circuit, if I press the pedal before the main contactor is closed, the truck will jump pretty hard for a split second. I haven't tried it but it may chirp the tires and if so that's a huge boost over not having them. It may not be significant but it's impressive nonetheless when you push the pedal and it launches, unlike the old truck with 1500 lbs of lead in the back!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> +1 on that Tess. I resorted to remembering that the "big one" is - and the "small one" is +, similar to a AA battery.
> 
> JR


I ignore the leads and have to actually look at the LED, knowing that the cathode is the "dish" the LED sits in. Someday I'll remember that the dish is always connected to the longer lead, but just like some poor schmuck with OCD that has to keep checking if the stove is turned off, Ill keep peering at the inside of LEDs to figure out which way to connect them...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> ...
> An example is my Curtis 1231C. With the factory caps which I think is 16,000uf plus my 10,000 almost fully charged via the precharge circuit, if I press the pedal before the main contactor is closed, the truck will jump pretty hard for a split second. I haven't tried it but it may chirp the tires and if so that's a huge boost over not having them. It may not be significant but it's impressive nonetheless when you push the pedal and it launches, unlike the old truck with 1500 lbs of lead in the back!


You are still trying to translate something that happens on the timescale of microseconds (ie - the time between pulses of current drawn by the controller) into a human-perceivable timescale of seconds. The battery pack supplies all of the current to the controller over the period of a full switching cycle; the input capacitance is there to help out during the first few hundred _nanoseconds_. 

With the ramp rate on a Soliton1 set to 25kA/s you can go from 0 to 1000A in 40 milliseconds, a speed that is more or less instantaneous to a human. The Soliton1, however, has already executed 320 switching cycles if in performance mode, or 560 cycles if in quiet mode.

In addition, the graph of capacitor current vs. duty cycle is a hemisphere with the peak at 50% and 0 at both 0% and 100%. So average current through the capacitor starts at 0A, reaches a peak at 50%, and declines once again to 0A at 100% duty. You could have 10,000A going to the motor at 100% duty cycle and the capacitor wouldn't care at all. Conversely, until back EMF on the motor (ie - RPM) is high enough, the duty cycle will remain fairly low, so any sluggishness you notice when first stepping on the accelerator aren't the fault of the capacitor (or lack thereof).

At any rate, it takes surprisingly little capacitance to fulfill the function of dishing out current to the switch for a given amount of reflected ripple in a given amount of time. What is much more important for performing this function is that the internal resistance (and inductance) of the capacitor be as low as possible. Indeed, any reflected ripple in a controller with electrolytics (like your hacked Curtis) is the result of this internal resistance (aka "ESR") and not the capacitance itself. The pulses of current across the ESR not only causes ripple, it also results in heating (_I²R_).

Film capacitors trade a lower capacitance per unit volume for a dramatically higher ripple current rating (on account of having much lower ESR). For a DC motor controller this is a good tradeoff. For an industrial VFD that might have to continue operating through the loss of several cycles of the AC mains, it's not such a good tradeoff.


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Warfield claims the new motors will handle 425 volts. 
They will NOT be interpoled motors, they will be a version of the 11" Warp motor (large armature), but have additional brushes supplied by Helwig. Sorry no room for fan. 



rochesterricer said:


> Ron, those motors will be rated for that much voltage?


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The early testing of the Shiva controllers will be with my basic dual 11" Warp/ Trans Warp motors @ 190v. I can up the amps of these motors, but voltage will be limited until the new motors arrive in May. I will start nice and easy, 1500 amps each motor, then work my way up. The pack will provide all the BA and Voltage needed. 

We should run 8's with that package, the car will be est...2100 lbs.
When the new motors arrive who knows what will happen?



Tesseract said:


> I would plan on _eventually reaching_ a *maximum* voltage of 425V. I wouldn't start at that voltage. Additionally, the pack will sag when you start pulling heaving currents from it so the motor(s) will never see full pack voltage. The amount of sag will depend, of course, on the total resistance in the battery loop and how much current you manage to pull from it (and that will depend on track conditions, driver skill, drivetrain ratios, etc...).
> 
> Knowing that it is the drag racer's duty to push things until they break, I still would be _really_ _really_ *really* (emphasized enough?) careful about pushing the motor voltage limits. The limits published by NetGain were devised for a world in which 2000A could only be briefly reached, and packs would sag by 50% when pulling more than 1000A or so from them. Shiva laughs at such limits, and she will destroy every motor you can throw at her with gleeful abandon.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Warfield claims the new motors will handle 425 volts.
> They will NOT be interpoled motors, they will be a version of the 11" Warp motor (large armature), but have additional brushes supplied by Helwig. Sorry no room for fan.


Forced air cooling is required then?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> They will NOT be interpoled motors, they will be a version of the 11" Warp motor (large armature), but have additional brushes supplied by Helwig.


Yeah, interpoles are for babies!  Real men make high voltage motors just with massive brushes!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Turbo blown forced air! Car is going to look wild with turbos connected to my motors! 



rochesterricer said:


> Forced air cooling is required then?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Muscle springs with large brushes, I am told these new motors will not allow me to run with low voltage or amps? Might have to do a burnout from the pits to the line? New era of EV racing starting in 2012. 



Coulomb said:


> Yeah, interpoles are for babies!  Real men make high voltage motors just with massive brushes!


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Muscle springs with large brushes, I am told these new motors will not allow me to run with low voltage or amps? Might have to do a burnout from the pits to the line?


There might be some torque (and hence current) required to overcome the friction of the brushes with their stiff springs. But I'd guess that 2 V and 100 A will move you smoothly from the pits to the starting line.

I think they mean that you would get poor performance from these motors without a relatively high pack voltage, and a high current controller.



> New era of EV racing starting in 2012.


Yes! I'm sure I'm just one of many watching with great interest.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> There might be some torque (and hence current) required to overcome the friction of the brushes with their stiff springs. But I'd guess that 2 V and 100 A will move you smoothly from the pits to the starting line.
> 
> I think they mean that you would get poor performance from these motors without a relatively high pack voltage, and a high current controller.
> 
> ...


I don't think George wanted some of this to be public news right now but, since it is out, all I will say is it's not friction and you can't use 2V/100A. Ron ask him if he cares if this is shared, I will do the same, and if so we can divulge the full details of the race motors and have a *discussion* about how to best use them.


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Turbo blown forced air! Car is going to look wild with turbos connected to my motors!


 make sure it sounds nice, like a jet fighter, not like some dem vacuumcleaner


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

George introduced the new motor design at EVCCON in Missouri. There has been some changes since the introduction, but still maintains higher voltage with additional brushes. I guess there are only a few of us that will be racing, so it has not got around yet.



toddshotrods said:


> I don't think George wanted some of this to be public news right now but, since it is out, all I will say is it's not friction and you can't use 2V/100A. Ron ask him if he cares if this is shared, I will do the same, and if so we can divulge the full details of the race motors and have a *discussion* about how to best use them.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> George introduced the new motor design at EVCCON in Missouri. There has been some changes since the introduction, but still maintains higher voltage with additional brushes. I guess there are only a few of us that will be racing, so it has not got around yet.


I understand that the news of the motors being built is public information; and that they would be dual comm, higher voltage, etc. He shared some of the details with me, via email, of what's going inside them, and how they work, and indicated that the information was to be kept confidential. I emailed him last night to see what he wants.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

A 930 transmission with a 950 lb-ft clutch and some crazy half-breed axles will be installed in the 911 soon (perhaps as early as tomorrow).

Then we will film a full throttle acceleration from a rolling start on the interstate with the goal of hitting 3000A.

Once that happens the price of Shiva will go up to $9500 because otherwise we would be better off making 8 Juniors with the components. Indeed, we really ought to charge a lot more than $9500 just because of the uniqueness factor of Shiva, but given there's so few people in the world that want/need a 1MW+ DC motor controller (and one fewer as of yesterday), we have little incentive to do more than satisfy the existing orders and be done with it.

Anyone who has not paid up in full for their pre-order by then will have to provide a really convincing reason as to why we should honor their price because, after all, the deal was you'd get a discount on price if you paid for the controller before it was made...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Does this car has two Warp 9 motors, or am I remembering that incorrectly?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> Does this car has two Warp 9 motors, or am I remembering that incorrectly?


Yes, wired in parallel.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Sounds good. I'll be waiting for my late x-mas present.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello Tess,



Tesseract said:


> we really ought to charge a lot more than $9500 just because of the uniqueness factor of Shiva, but given there's so few people in the world that want/need a 1MW+ DC motor controller (and one fewer as of yesterday), we have little incentive to do more than satisfy the existing orders and be done with it.



Yeah, you're right, there isn't anyone that would need a 1MW DC motor controller, especially at that price.... Right. Pick up the phone and call any University or marine research center and see if they can use something like that.

If that's too much trouble, put up a simple eBay ad. Here are some running now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldor-Reli...796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfb38cb64
(this guy's gonna need a controller for that tiny motor)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fincor-Mode...260?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a132f9684

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEXPAK-300...892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a679a74ec

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fincor-3166...788?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51928a4f54

(Those complaining about the size of the Shiva, check out the closets/controllers above)

Really, just for kicks, put up an ad in the industrial section on eBay and see what happens.

JR

PS: sorry. now back to regularly scheduled thread programming.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Yeah, you're right, there isn't anyone that would need a 1MW DC motor controller, especially at that price.... Right. Pick up the phone and call any University or marine research center and see if they can use something like that.


Thanks for taking the time to find and post those links, JR. Sobering, aren't they?

That said, the reason Shiva is so small, relatively speaking, is that she doesn't have a honking big 3ph. rectifier with capacitors and line reactors inside. That's probably 250-300# right there. Also, Shiva is most definitely not UL-Approved, so she can't *legally* be connected to the AC mains. Plenty of people don't care about that - or it isn't relevant to their application - and they would, as you suggested, be more than happy to skip the BS and get an honest megawatt for less than $10K. We just need to find them, and putting up an eBay ad isn't a half bad idea.


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## MPaulHolmes (Feb 23, 2008)

Check out the smarmy comments here:

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-racing/news/19822-ihra-accepts-electric-vehicles

I hope somebody uses your controller to beat them like a red-headed step child.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Jeff,

Just had to check in.



Tesseract said:


> A 930 transmission with a 950 lb-ft clutch and some crazy half-breed axles will be installed in the 911 soon (perhaps as early as tomorrow).
> 
> Then we will film a full throttle acceleration from a rolling start on the interstate with the goal of hitting 3000A.


I'm thinkin', U must be getting close to doin this. . ? Did Seb get his 930 trans yet??



Tesseract said:


> Once that happens the price of Shiva will go up to $9500 because otherwise we would be better off making 8 Juniors with the components. Indeed, we really ought to charge a lot more than $9500 just because of the uniqueness factor of Shiva, but given there's so few people in the world that want/need a 1MW+ DC motor controller (and one fewer as of yesterday), we have little incentive to do more than satisfy the existing orders and be done with it.
> 
> Anyone who has not paid up in full for their pre-order by then will have to provide a really convincing reason as to why we should honor their price because, after all, the deal was you'd get a discount on price if you paid for the controller before it was made...


Hey Ron, r u payin the higher price? . . or did you shore up?  At least one of my investments has made money of late.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I'm thinkin', U must be getting close to doin this. . ? Did Seb get his 930 trans yet??


Almost. Turns out the 930 Turbo tranny is a bit longer overall so it took some fiddling around to get it in. The guys in the shop were still putzing around with it when I left at 6:20 but they looked pretty close to being down. It was already dark here, anyway, so even if they had finished we wouldn't have been able to film anything (unless Seb zorched both motors at the same time, that is, as the shower of sparks would have shown up nicely).




DIYguy said:


> Hey Ron, r u payin the higher price?...


Evil! Nah, we're going to let Ron slide since he did pay a substantial deposit. Technically, though, he didn't live up to his side of the deal. He's lucky that Seb is both much more of a soft touch than me and the majority owner of Evnetics. Then again, no Shiva gets built unless I provide the adapter board for it....


----------



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Evil! Nah, we're going to let Ron slide since he did pay a substantial deposit. Technically, though, he didn't live up to his side of the deal. He's lucky that Seb is both much more of a soft touch than me and the majority owner of Evnetics. Then again, no Shiva gets built unless I provide the adapter board for it....


Thanks for the huge support Jeff! You were so much nicer in person! 
I will be wiring additional funds this week, so please relax, the economy is in the shitter along with my business. Did I mention our friend from Helwig Carbon has offerred me a sponsor package, they are with us for 2012! First EV Team ever sponsored by Helwig Carbon (I think?).


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Did I mention our friend from Helwig Carbon has offerred me a sponsor package, they are with us for 2012! First EV Team ever sponsored by Helwig Carbon (I think?).


Congratulations!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

GizmoEV said:


> Congratulations!


Thank you! Owning and operating a drag racing team is very expensive and time consuming, it is very much appreciated when the suppliers step up with some form of sponsorship. 2012 will be a record breaking year for EV drag racing! Should be fun for all to watch!


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

this year must be better than last one - just hold-on... 
congratulations with all support, given or taken : )


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

gor said:


> this year must be better than last one - just hold-on...
> congratulations with all support, given or taken : )


It will be much better, but I consider our 2011 Season a huge accomplishment! 10.08 seconds @ 127.85 mph in our first season, not to shabby. We did build and race the quickest EV Drag Car in the USA in one year!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Please keep us updated on progress of the new Evnetics chargers. I want my team to use all Evnetics products.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Please keep us updated on progress of the new Evnetics chargers. I want my team to use all Evnetics products.


Hmm... Charger? Oh, yeah... I vaguely remember mentioning at EVCCON we were *thinking* about developing one... It's not a funded project, though. Seb and I have a pretty good idea of how we want to do it, but I'm not sure how economically feasible it will be. Indeed, I'm not so sure I want to compete against "open source kits" or even the Elcons of the world.


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

But wouldn't it be nice if you can sell an add-on kit (ie: diode bridge, caps, inductors, contactors, etc) to your current controllers? A bit flip and it goes from burning motors to melting cells. Your Shiva controller would charge a pack in 30 secs 

Then it'd be you undercutting everyone else... 

JR


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> But wouldn't it be nice if you can sell an add-on kit (ie: diode bridge, caps, inductors, contactors, etc) to your current controllers? A bit flip and it goes from burning motors to melting cells. Your Shiva controller would charge a pack in 30 secs
> 
> Then it'd be you undercutting everyone else...
> 
> JR


Hmm... nope, that wouldn't be nice at all. The first time someone sets, say, the maximum voltage parameter incorrectly, and causes their expensive LFP battery pack to go up in flames, taking the car, garage, house, trees, small children, etc. along with it, we'd be sued into oblivion. Oh, and that would be our reward _after_ paying some $25-50k to push *each* controller model through UL certification - which is technically necessary for any device connected to the AC line... well, necessary if you want your homeowner's or car insurance to cover the damages from your misadventures, anyway.

And that liability issue is the main reason the Evnetics' charger is still a Pegasus or Gryphon or whatever mythical beast you prefer...


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> And that liability issue is the main reason the Evnetics' charger is still a Pegasus or Gryphon or whatever mythical beast you prefer...


That is too bad.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> That is too bad.


Ain't it though. No matter how you slice it, the charger has the highest penalty for failure of any product for an EV because it deals with the most expensive part of the conversion - the battery pack - and is typically operated at night or when otherwise unattended (the exception that proves the rule being Jack Rickard, who apparently does enjoy watching batteries charge...  ).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Until he gets bored or distracted and walks away, then they melt


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Until he gets bored or distracted and walks away, then they melt


Then they burn!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I Googled the name Shiva with Evnetics and looked what popped up! Looks like this truck will be ripping up the track, should post some good numbers! 

http://www.evalbum.com/4033


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

alexcrouse said:


> Wire a few motors together, bolt them to motors used as generators, and wire each generator to massive resistor banks. Boom, one MW Dyno.


I can tell you are very resourceful kinda guy like myself. We would never make it in government institutions. Sometimes you have to make chicken salad out of chicken s***, cheaply and make people like it & the Government won't allow that with their unions.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> I can tell you are very resourceful kinda guy like myself. We would never make it in government institutions. Sometimes you have to make chicken salad out of chicken s***, cheaply and make people like it & the Government won't allow that with their unions.


If it had been left up to the UAW the Volt would have been out years ago.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

coulombKid said:


> If it had been left up to the UAW the Volt would have been out years ago.



Too true - 

back in the UK before Mad Maggie destroyed out car industry we lost 100 days production to management incompetence for every hour we lost due to the unions


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> I can tell you are very resourceful kinda guy like myself. We would never make it in government institutions. Sometimes you have to make chicken salad out of chicken s***, cheaply and make people like it & the Government won't allow that with their unions.




This reply is off-topic and with a heavy political slant to boot. Someone ought to flag it for review by an Administrator...

...oh, the irony!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> This reply is off-topic and with a heavy political slant to boot. Someone ought to flag it for review by an Administrator...
> 
> ...oh, the irony!


I thought the line was "Oh! the humanity" but that was for Hindenburg wasn't it? Could be appropriate for Shiva too


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Cowboys 1, Goverment 0


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The Big Shiva controllers seem to be selling fast, mine are order number #3 and #4, and my Buddy Mike Pethel just bought another. Get them while their HOT!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The Big Shiva controllers seem to be selling fast, mine are order number #3 and #4, and my Buddy Mike Pethel just bought another. Get them while their HOT!


He sure did, but now we have a problem in that we have a limited number of IGBTs until June so this might be the last Shiva we make for the next 5-6 months.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> He sure did, but now we have a problem in that we have a limited number of IGBTs until June so this might be the last Shiva we make for the next 5-6 months.


As long as I get mine, all will be fine!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> ...now we have a problem in that we have a limited number of IGBTs until June so this might be the last Shiva we make for the next 5-6 months.


Sorry to hear that Jeff. Thailand flood related shortage? That seems to be everywhere these days.

JR


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Sorry to hear that Jeff. Thailand flood related shortage? That seems to be everywhere these days.
> 
> JR


Nah, it's mainly because we are relatively small customers of IGBT modules compared to, say, GE, Baldor, Siemens, etc., so we get the short end of the stick when it comes to allocation of inventory.

According to the latest cost assessment, however, it seems we would be better off using the parts to make Juniors rather than Shivas, even with the Shiva priced at $9500 (and Juniors aren't particularly profitable to begin with) so unless someone is willing to pay a significant premium to get a Shiva before our next allocation of modules we are stopping at #6.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Nah, it's mainly because we are relatively small customers of IGBT modules compared to, say, GE, Baldor, Siemens, etc., so we get the short end of the stick when it comes to allocation of inventory.
> 
> According to the latest cost assessment, however, it seems we would be better off using the parts to make Juniors rather than Shivas, even with the Shiva priced at $9500 (and Juniors aren't particularly profitable to begin with) so unless someone is willing to pay a significant premium to get a Shiva before our next allocation of modules we are stopping at #6.


I have a really strong feeling that the waiting list for your next batch of Shiva's will grow by the dozens once I hit the track.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I Googled the name Shiva with Evnetics and looked what popped up! Looks like this truck will be ripping up the track, should post some good numbers!
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/4033


That would be my ride.  Shiva #1. . .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Build thread?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Build thread?


Ya... I know. A lot to update there. I'm still collecting parts and have been driving the truck. Soon.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> That would be my ride.  Shiva #1. . .


Congrats!


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Congratulations to the suppliers and buyers of these ground breaking controllers. Very excited to hear of further news and of course some videos to eat (choke on?) popcorn with.

I do have a questions for the Evnetics guys. Compared to the opposition your continuous amps (if cooled correctly) = your peak amps where as the Zilla 2000 (I assume) gives 2000 amps for a time but it's continuous rating is much lower (less than a 1000 I believe).

I've been thinking that a controller with a high peak matches to the same limitations of available batteries and motors. High power for only a short duration.

With all that in mind. Would producing a controller with a high peak output but lower continuous output be cheaper to make?

And then I ask (as I'm a fan) are you guys considering making a product between the Soliton 1 and and the Shiva something in the $5K range. 2000 amps peak, 1000 continuous would surpass my needs (1200 to 1500 amps peak) but could be directly competed against Zilla 2000.

I'm seeing more discussions for a mid size (that's very funny to write) high performance controller recently. Perhaps expectations are rising with the new HV 11" motors and cells like A123 able to dish out and take lots of amps for a while.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

drgrieve said:


> ...Compared to the opposition your continuous amps (if cooled correctly) = your peak amps where as the Zilla 2000 (I assume) gives 2000 amps for a time but it's continuous rating is much lower (less than a 1000 I believe).


Aye, with the caveat that the peak and continuous ratings of the Zillas are also inversely proportional to battery voltage (starting at ~200V, IIRC).



drgrieve said:


> I've been thinking that a controller with a high peak matches to the same limitations of available batteries and motors. High power for only a short duration.


Aye, this is quite the conundrum with EVs. Suffice it to say, you can never really achieve a perfect balancing of the peak and continuous power ratings of the battery, controller and motor in an EV. 

By designing our controllers to have as flat a power curve as possible w/r/t time and/or voltage, we eliminate them from the balancing act, leaving you to concentrate on matching battery pack and motor. 

In other words, with our controllers you don't really have to worry about having the same amount of power on the 4th stoplight as the 1st in the city, or whether you can keep up with 80mph traffic on the interstate for more than a mile or two, you just have to keep the motor cool and the battery pack within it's C rating, and that's more than enough to worry about, isn't it? 



drgrieve said:


> With all that in mind. Would producing a controller with a high peak output but lower continuous output be cheaper to make?


It might be cheaper; it might not be. It would depend on how many of the "cheaper" controllers get sent back for *warranty repair* to replace exploded capacitors, fused IGBTs, pc boards, etc... And then this harkens back to the above conundrum which is that the continuous ratings of the battery pack and motor can vary considerably. Are you running a single WarP-9 with the internal fan for cooling (~25kW cont.), or a WarP-11HV with twin external blowers (~75kW (??) cont.)? A 30kWh of pack with a 3C rating (e.g. ~90kW peak) or 15kWh of pack with a 20C rating (~300kW peak)?



drgrieve said:


> I'm seeing more discussions for a mid size (that's very funny to write) high performance controller recently. Perhaps expectations are rising with the new HV 11" motors and cells like A123 able to dish out and take lots of amps for a while.


Oddly enough, my feeling is that the new WarP-11HV would benefit much more from controllers with a higher operating voltage, rather than more current, per se. I mean, it has more turns of wire for the field, so more flux (amp-turns) per amp, or the same torque for less amps, but a higher back EMF per RPM, too, so you need more voltage at the same amperage. Ergo, a 425V (think Shiva) controller with a 750-1000A rating (ok, don't think Shiva) would be a much better match to the HV motors.


----------



## EV West (Jan 12, 2012)

We should have this Shiva installation in our BMW E36 M3 running around in the next couple of weeks. 

She sure does dwarf our 11" motor.... oh well, guess that means multiple motors in inevitable.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Aye, with the caveat that the peak and continuous ratings of the Zillas are also inversely proportional to battery voltage (starting at ~200V, IIRC)


"Proportional" seems a tad harsh. The Z2k drops from 1900 battery amps at 200 volts to 1600 battery amps at 400 volts (it is not rated to see over 375 volts!) I don't think the continuous rating would be effected, though it is strongly dependent on the liquid cooling system. The Zilla does not effectively air cool (no fan, no fins, and the main heat sink is a block of copper in the center of the box.) Otmar had discussed approximate continuous ratings over on the NEDRA list at one point and I think it was about 700 amps with proper cooling for the Z2k.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

EV West said:


> We should have this Shiva installation in our BMW E36 M3 running around in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> She sure does dwarf our 11" motor.... oh well, guess that means multiple motors in inevitable.


Ah... so you are the one I gave up Shiva #1 for, eh? lol. ur welcome. 
That's ok. #2 is fine for my schedule. Lookin' good.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Ah... so you are the one I gave up Shiva #1 for, eh? lol. ur welcome.
> That's ok. #2 is fine for my schedule. Lookin' good.


Yep. They said they needed it in a hurry for a photo shoot or something and who are we to pass up free publicity? 

Your Shiva is next. It was assembled last week and I checked all the bits and pieces inside for proper functioning and did a first pass calibration and dyno test at ~230V and ~500A. I'll leave the burn-in and final calibration at ~425V and ~2000A to the production crew, but barring anything obscene and unforeseen, it will ship out to you via truck freight sometime next week.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

drgrieve said:


> Congratulations to the suppliers and buyers of these ground breaking controllers. Very excited to hear of further news and of course some videos to eat (choke on?) popcorn with.
> 
> I do have a questions for the Evnetics guys. Compared to the opposition your continuous amps (if cooled correctly) = your peak amps where as the Zilla 2000 (I assume) gives 2000 amps for a time but it's continuous rating is much lower (less than a 1000 I believe).
> 
> ...


I've had that very same thought. However, it occurred to me that you could get the same effect with dual Soliton1's if you are running a dual motor setup. Such a setup would be reasonably close in price to a Zilla 2k, about 6k compared to around 5k for the Zilla, but with even better performance.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> "Proportional" seems a tad harsh. The Z2k drops from 1900 battery amps at 200 volts to 1600 battery amps at 400 volts (it is not rated to see over 375 volts!) ....


Everyone that has bought a Soliton Shiva is well aware of the Z2K, so no need to spam us with a link to Manzanita Micro's sales page, but since you did...

The Shiva tops out at 425V actual, or 50V more than the highest maximum allowed for the Z2K-EHV, and is conservatively rated to deliver 3000A at all duty cycles, which is almost *twice* what the Z2K-EHV can pull from the pack at its highest allowed pack voltage.

If you allow for the same amount of sag from the pack - let's say 100V - then a single Shiva can dish out more power than *two* Z2Ks: 3000A at 325V to the motor(s), or 975kW, vs. two Z2Ks putting out a combined total of 3540A at 275V, or 973.5kW.

But two Z2K-EHV will cost $10,150 while a single Soliton Shiva costs $9,500 (for now, anyway).

So, uh... yeah... here's _more cowbell_ for you...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

EVfun said:


> "Proportional" seems a tad harsh. The Z2k drops from 1900 battery amps at 200 volts to 1600 battery amps at 400 volts (it is not rated to see over 375 volts!) I don't think the continuous rating would be effected, though it is strongly dependent on the liquid cooling system. The Zilla does not effectively air cool (no fan, no fins, and the main heat sink is a block of copper in the center of the box.) Otmar had discussed approximate continuous ratings over on the NEDRA list at one point and I think it was about 700 amps with proper cooling for the Z2k.


Ah! So your true colors and agenda are now known! I will race ANY car in the 1/4 mile with two Zilla controllers against my Camaro with two Shiva controllers. I will also put up a purse of $10,000.00 to the winner!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Shiva #3 & #4 are mine for the 2012 Camaro! I was not in a hurry, car will not be completed until end of Feb.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Since we are comparing controllers (which was our weak spot during the 2011 season), has anyone ever added up the cost of parts in a Zilla 2K?

I am sure there are many here qualified to give us all the cost. I have one estimated parts costs at only $800.00 for the Zilla 2K EHV, from a reliable source. That could be why the Zilla's current drops like a rock. 

There is an old saying, you want quality, you must pay for it! 

I just love my Buddies from the upper West Coast.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Save the drama Ron. Tesseract made his point with facts, he doesn't need your false bravado to back him up. It doesn't matter if there is a lump of coal inside the Zilla, it does what it does. The permanent stick up your ass about the "west coast" must be uncomfortable, you really should just remove it and get on with your life. At least keep it to yourself, the rest of us don't give a crap.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Save the drama Ron. Tesseract made his point with facts, he doesn't need your false bravado to back him up. It doesn't matter if there is a lump of coal inside the Zilla, it does what it does. The permanent stick up your ass about the "west coast" must be uncomfortable, you really should just remove it and get on with your life. At least keep it to yourself, the rest of us don't give a crap.


I will beat my chest and push my bravado any damn time I like. I have witnessed nothing but lies and corruption from Companies and racers in the upper West Coast. I have had conversations with Rudman where he called NY and NJ people scum, and belittled Dennis Berube. I talk the talk and walk the walk, you can continue your online primadonna insults, but when it's time to race, it's my car that will be whipping ass!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No one cares but you. Keep it to yourself, it doesn't belong on this board or in this thread.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> No one cares but you. Keep it to yourself, it doesn't belong on this board or in this thread.


That's complete hogwash everyone cares, I get compliments on a daily bases from all around the USA and beyond. The only attacks that come my way are from old school racers and residents from North West, USA or NEDRA members. 

When we stayed in Missouri at the EVCCON Expo, many agreed with me and my opinion of this small group of has beens. EV Drag Racing has evolved, many new racers do not agree with the old school Hippocrates.

We are way off topic on this thread so I will let you have the last word!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

How is the testing going?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> How is the testing going?


Testing??? We've moved on to building and shipping these monsters now!


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Testing??? We've moved on to building and shipping these monsters now!


Any progress on Sebs car?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Looking for Shiva test results?

(If your battery was able to produce 425V 4000amps)

How many seconds at 3000 amps?

How many seconds at 2500 amps?

etc.....

Thank you!


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## rebirthauto (Nov 3, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Looking for Shiva test results?
> 
> ...


Hey Ron,

Testing this Beast has been (and will continue to be) a real challenge. I think that ultimately, we have no other choice but to rely on the racing community to even scratch the surface of what the Shiva can do.

Here's what we did to the 911 for the last real road test:

1. Rebuilt 930 long box with limited slip. This is the same box used in Porsche's famed 917.
2. Big Carrera axles
3. Custom front transaxle mount
4. Spec Stage5 clutch (http://www.slickcar.com/details/21351-performance-clutches.asp) with their aluminum flywheel. Spec sell this package as a 980ftlb setup.
5. Twin Warp9 motors connected in parallel.

The car currently sports a 6p96s Headway 38120PS pack, that uses RebirthAuto battery pack system (http://rebirthauto.com/RebirthAutoPorsche911BatteryPacks.aspx). Nominal Voltage is 307V (3.2V x 96s) with max continuous amps (@ 20C per Headway spec) of 960A (8Ah x 6p x 20C).

We took it out for an extended terror run and found that the clutch didn't quite live up to its torque spec. Nonetheless, I've had the privilege of owning some very fast cars, but this 911 with the Shiva on board was completely amazing to drive with incredible power all the way up to the motor redline which was set to 6000RPM.

We figured out that the clutch held up until about 2400A on the motor side, which, assuming 237ftlbs/1000A on the Warp9s, equates to about 568ftlbs in the parallel configuration. We therefore limited the motor amps to 2400, but not before causing fatal damage to the whole clutch assembly.

Here are some NOMINAL number from this run:

max kw 434
max motor amp	2,395
max hp 582
max torque 568
max batt amps	2,114
maximum power occured at 2343A motor, 86.9% duty cycle, 213V, 3396 RPM

Important NOMINAL Pack Voltage Sag Info:

@1000A battery Voltage sags to 250V or 2.6V/cell (20C)
@2065A battery Voltage sags to 205V or 2.1V/cell (40C!!!)

The Shiva was installed on top of a carpeted battery cover, inside the vehicle, without any form of cooling whatsoever, and never once triggered thermal derating. The controller's maximum temperature reached 63C.

What's next:

We sent the clutch back to Spec, and really surprised them with the extent of the damage done to their fine product. They replaced the entire assembly and built some special sticky clutch disk in order to get closer to the spec. The result however is a really crummy looking disk that we don't think we'll ever be able to balance out. Next time, we'll have to design a clutch ourselves.

While the car was apart I decided to send the gearbox to a specialist for a complete tear down and rebuild. While trying to balance the new clutch assembly, we decided to junk the aluminum flywheel in favor of a modified forged OEM unit. We then buttoned everything back up to the original configuration.

Today, running a Soliton1 with the motors in series configuration, @ 1000 motor amps or 474ftlbs ( [email protected]). The car runs like a champ.... until the next visit from Shiva.

Thanks,
Sebastien


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Seb,

Great info! I think this controller is the beast of all beasts. I will test her potential all season long. Going to be a great 2012 racing season.

Not sure if I should ask you, QER or Jeff, but does the Shiva software allow you to set amperage limits with time, or does it just give you what your setting are and changes as your battery sags? 

Another way of puting it, can I set the controller to 3000amps for 4 seconds, then have a setting for 2500amps for the next 3 seconds, then continue down? or once you set her at 3000amps she will deliver that amperage until the battery says "enough"! 




rebirthauto said:


> Hey Ron,
> 
> Testing this Beast has been (and will continue to be) a real challenge. I think that ultimately, we have no other choice but to rely on the racing community to even scratch the surface of what the Shiva can do.
> 
> ...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Seb, you guys will probably have to go with a pricey race setup from someone like Tilton.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Looking for Shiva test results?
> 
> ...


Is your clutch supplier using the copper competition pads on the disk? In tractor pulls the hotter they get the tighter they stick. Lousy street manners though.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

rochesterricer said:


> Seb, you guys will probably have to go with a pricey race setup from someone like Tilton.


Does Shiva have CAN buss? Is it data out only or can the control limits be over written on the fly by a separate micro-controller. If so when I get the Solitron 1 I'll be able to write my own time based control limits profile. Here in Phoenix temperatures would select the base time-amps look up table version. Each run, of course (in our harsh conditions), would pop to a more conservative table.


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## jeff mccabe (Feb 23, 2010)

You might be on to something here !

We dont need to slip our cluches in ev's, just use them to shift gears quicker. So we should not really care about its manners when slipping.

Just a thought ?

Jeff McCabe




coulombKid said:


> Is your clutch supplier using the copper competition pads on the disk? In tractor pulls the hotter they get the tighter they stick. Lousy street manners though.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Not sure if I should ask you, QER or Jeff,


Well, I think you're stuck with me because I don't think Seb checks the forum often and Jeff is busy and away in RL so, well, that leaves *ahem* Moi!



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> but does the Shiva software allow you to set amperage limits with time, or does it just give you what your setting are and changes as your battery sags?


The latter. Adding time factor to the parameters turned out to be a bit of a challenge, partly from a software perspective but primarily for pedagogic reasons. It's, simply put, tricky to explain in the manual in a way that won't result in very confusing/-ed support mails and I think Jeff has enough of those. 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> or once you set her at 3000amps she will deliver that amperage until the battery says "enough"!


If you set minimum pack voltage to, say, 300 Volt motor current will start to decrease when you go below that. It has worked fairly well so far and the battery voltage tends to balance in at the treshold (or possibly 1-2 Volts below depending on the pack).

Of course, for obvious reasons I don't have much real life data for currents higher than 1kA so it's quite possible the algorithm might have to be tweaked for the Shiva, but that's a bit hard to know before you guys start to really torture your packs. 

Logs are always welcome when racing season starts...



coulombKid said:


> Does Shiva have CAN buss?


Short answer: No.

A bit longer answer: Back in the days when we constructed the original Soliton we looked at CAN-bus but skipped it because it's a bit of a can of worms (standards are good, that's why all manufacturers have their own...) and we didn't expect that anyone would really ask for it. So we went for Ethernet instead.

Hind sight is 20/20 and all that, but back then most DIYers used rather dumb controllers like Curtis 1231C and those can't even spell to "digital communication" even under death threat so, well, we really didn't expect CAN to be even a blip on the DIY-chart.

Adding it now on the Soliton would be, uh, hell. To say the least. And I think it's an understatement...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Gotcha! Thanks! 



Qer said:


> Well, I think you're stuck with me because I don't think Seb checks the forum often and Jeff is busy and away in RL so, well, that leaves *ahem* Moi!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Got a present today.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> Got a present today.


That's Awesome!

It's like the title to a bad-ass Science Fiction novel.

Congrates


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks man. Everything seems to be working out today... luv days like that. My motor coils are done (had them dipped) and looks like my lenco reverser direct fit spline to motor is gonna work also.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Got a present today.


Hah! Seb didn't axe my suggestion that she be given "The Destroyer" as a subtitle! 

Have fun, don't hurt yourself trying to move that beast by yourself, and, most importantly, thanks for being bad-ass enough to pony up for a Shiva first.



Oh, and one other thing... don't blame me when Shiva lives up to her name


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hah! Seb didn't axe my suggestion that she be given "The Destroyer" as a subtitle!


ya! I like it too... and was a bit surprised. Nice.



Tesseract said:


> Have fun, don't hurt yourself trying to move that beast by yourself, and, most importantly, thanks for being bad-ass enough to pony up for a Shiva first.


Im surprised more ppl didn't jump in. I was looking to get another controller and looking at the Zilla vs the advanced price option of the Shiva. . . it was a no brainer.



Tesseract said:


> Oh, and one other thing... don't blame me when Shiva lives up to her name


 lol. ok Jeff but just remember, I'm probably the only one with a better record with motor's vs Soliton's  My motors have the edge at this point. . . and my 13" has conductors in it the size of ur thumb. . . well almost,. . .

Now I have two EVnetics T-shirts! )


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Awesome!* 


DIYguy said:


> Got a present today.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *Awesome!*



lol lol, yes, all 115.4 lbs of her.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> lol lol, yes, all 115.4 lbs of her.


My drag car needed some nose weight! LOL 

I remember very well how 2000 amps felt , now let's see how 3000 amps feels?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

When I was at EVCCon, I punched the throttle coming back after the 1/4 mile and the tires broke loose at 35 to 40 mph. That was with only 2000 amps. 

In the early testing of Warp Factor II we would launch at 1500 amps for our first 1/4 mile run, felt like crap, sluggish slower launch. Just raising the controller to 2000 amps, only 500 additional made a HUGE difference at the line. I wonder how much difference launching at 2500 or 3000 amps will be?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I wonder how much difference launching at 2500 or 3000 amps will be?


...you'll need better tires...?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Qer said:


> ...you'll need better tires...?


Understatement of the week!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I was going to try one Shiva in series and split battery voltage, but after reading what happen in Florida at the Expo, I will definitely be installing two Shiva's on our 2012 EV Drag Car.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I was going to try one Shiva in series and split battery voltage, but after reading what happen in Florida at the Expo, I will definitely be installing two Shiva's on our 2012 EV Drag Car.


So what happened at the expo?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

John Metric's Fiero kicked ass


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> John Metric's Fiero kicked ass


Why don't you guys talk in numbers? Numbers are all that matter in racing. "Kicked ass" should have numbers with it dude!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I was going to try one Shiva in series and split battery voltage, but after reading what happen in Florida at the Expo, I will definitely be installing two Shiva's on our 2012 EV Drag Car.


Err... umm... You better double check with Seb about that, since I think your second Shiva has been reassigned. I mean, the development period did end a couple months ago, you know.



toddshotrods said:


> Why don't you guys talk in numbers? Numbers are all that matter in racing. "Kicked ass" should have numbers with it dude!


9.89s/134mph, IIRC. But that shouldn't matter to you, since you've bet the proverbial farm on Rhinehart Motion Systems and EVO actually making good on their promise to make a product that existing DC technology already soundly beats like a rented mule....


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. 






After enjoying the vid, I noticed the comments by Ron and Shawn... all respect and encouragement from two adversaries. Nice going guys.

JR


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I was going to try one Shiva in series and split battery voltage, but after reading what happen in Florida at the Expo, I will definitely be installing two Shiva's on our 2012 EV Drag Car.


Shawn's problem stemmed from battery voltage that was too high for the zilla's so, he had his power trimmed. The same voltage would have been fine for Shiva. . . as I understand it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...9.89s/134mph, IIRC. But that shouldn't matter to you, since you've bet the proverbial farm on Rhinehart Motion Systems and EVO actually making good on their promise to make a product that existing DC technology already soundly beats like a rented mule....


Thanks for the numbers.

So the fact that I don't want to build a drag car, means I can't be interested in, and enjoy the progress others have made/are making?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Shawn's problem stemmed from battery voltage that was too high for the zilla's so, he had his power trimmed. The same voltage would have been fine for Shiva. . . as I understand it.


Aye - Shiva delivers the full motor current rating of 3000A all the way up to the maximum allowed battery voltage of 425V.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

425 V * 3000 A = 1 275 000 W = 1275 kW = ~1710 HP

Gulp ...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

WarpedOne said:


> 425 V * 3000 A = 1 275 000 W = 1275 kW = ~1710 HP.


 
Haha!
Hard reality is probably more like: 425v fully charge (100S 4.2v), something around 320v after sag x 3000A = 960Kw (1287 battery hp), but only around 900 hp at motor shaft after efficiency lost.... so, far away from 1700 hp!

Dual ''Big Sol'' is a must to break records...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> Haha!
> Hard reality is probably more like: 425v fully charge (100S 4.2v), something around 320v after sag x 3000A = 960Kw (1287 battery hp), but only around 900 hp at motor shaft after efficiency lost.... so, far away from 1700 hp!
> 
> Dual ''Big Sol'' is a must to break records...


Why do you include the motor efficiency when figuring out how much power a *controller* is rated for? 

And while it is true that the voltage from any battery pack will sag under load, it is already possible to build a 100s LiPoly pack that will hold 400V at 3000A; whether you can afford it and whether you can fit it into your particular car is irrelevant to me, the controller designer, as well.

So I describe the Soliton Shiva as a 1.2MW controller assuming the pack has sagged down to 400V while delivering 3000A, and I believe that is more than fair compared to how some of my competitors rate their products.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

You are too generous - it is not your nor controllers problem that batteries sag under load. You nor controller cannot do anything about that. 
It is end-user's problem how to design the battery to deliver as constant and as high voltage as possible under low and high loads.

As long as Shiva doesn't smoke its magic smoke at 425/3000 for some relevant and usable period of time it is a 1,275 MW controller.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Why do you include the motor efficiency when figuring out how much power a *controller* is rated for?


My point is that a controller will never produce only one hp... A motor produced hp, not the controller...

So, I'm in accord with you guys, it's a 1200 Kw controller (impressive..).

But real horsepower capability can be harder to reach.
Exactly like it can be almost imposible to have 400 shaft hp with the 300 Kw Soliton 1.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

> My point is that a controller will never produce only one hp... A motor produced hp, not the controller...


There you are wrong. Motor doesn't produce HP, controller doesn't produce HP, battery doesn't produce HP etc. HPs aren't "produced".
HP is a rate at which chemical energy is converted into electrical energy (and some heat) in batteries. HP is also a rate at which this electrical energy is transformed into mechanical energy (and some heat) in the motor. 

And HP is also a rate at which controller is still capable of controlling this flow of energy without turning into a fireball.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

On a less argumentative note, I see you guys updated the website with details on the Shiva, really niiiiice.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Yabert said:


> ...
> Exactly like it can be almost imposible to have 400 shaft hp with the 300 Kw Soliton 1.


Still, how is this the controller's fault? I mean, if the controller *delivers* 300kW (and the Headway pack in Seb's Porsche 911 proves that the Soliton1 can, indeed, do so) then why should it be penalized just because the motor is only 90% efficient, or 80%, etc?




Bowser330 said:


> On a less argumentative note, I see you guys updated the website with details on the Shiva, really niiiiice.


Christopher Fisher, who redid Jack Rickard's website, took the reigns over from Qer to start redoing ours (mainly because Qer and me are *busy* working on Top Secret Stuff...  )


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Upcoming products are the programmable charger and 13.8V output wide-range input dc/dc converter.


Ah ha! I thought the charger was too much of a regulatory hassle since it's connected to the mains?


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## BiosDude (Mar 2, 2012)

While "lurking" here for years without registering, I have to applaud Evnetics for engineering their outstanding products! They put the contactors inside their controller where it belonged in the first place IMHO. If they put a DC-DC converter and a charger in it with the same digital interface and attention to detail as they've shown so far, then it becomes a no brainer which controller/dc-dc/charger to choose for a project! All the duplication of components is then eliminated resulting in a more compact, efficient package. It reminds me of the time I visited a company that made laser barcode readers for stores and had figured out that they could use the motor windings as a transformer at the same time thus removing the transformer package from their design. It's this kind of innovation that makes engineering so exciting! PLEASE keep up with the awesome products!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I didn't get the impression that the DC/DC and charger were going to be contained inside the controller, though I believe AC Propulsion did just that with their AC induction system, using the motor windings as well.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

WOW! This thread is hot. 

I am not sure of the other Shiva owners, but I will be racing with two Shiva's, one to each motor. I will have the battery pack that can produce the battery amps needed, and enough voltage when she sags I will still maintain 400+ volts per motor. The only weak spot I was worried about is cooking the motors, well news has come in and that will not be a problem with my new racing motors, I am under an agreement not to give motor specifics. 

So, the only negative news I have is the weight of my pack is over what I estimated, so whats another 100 lbs for the most powerful battery pack ever built for an EV drag car? 

Anyone want to take an estimate on 1/4 mile ET? 

Okay, last year with a 2650 lb car, with 2000 amps and 190 volts to each motor I was able to reach 10.08 ET in the 1/4 mile. 

This year with a 2300 to 2400 lb EV Drag Camaro, with 3000 amps and 400 volts to each motor, I estimate 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile or better. You guys can hold me to it!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Err... umm... You better double check with Seb about that, since I think your second Shiva has been reassigned. I mean, the development period did end a couple months ago, you know.


I spoke with Seb today, I hope you received the UPDATE!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> WOW! This thread is hot.
> 
> I am not sure of the other Shiva owners, but I will be racing with two Shiva's, one to each motor. I will have the battery pack that can produce the battery amps needed, and enough voltage when she sags I will still maintain 400+ volts per motor. The only weak spot I was worried about is cooking the motors, well news has come in and that will not be a problem with my new racing motors, I am under an agreement not to give motor specifics.
> 
> ...


I don't know what to estimate all I know is I want to see the video because it's going to be great!

The track announcer may very well nut himself!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

BiosDude said:


> ...If they put a DC-DC converter and a charger in it with the same digital interface and attention to detail as they've shown so far, then it becomes a no brainer which controller/dc-dc/charger to choose for a project! All the duplication of components is then eliminated resulting in a more compact, efficient package....


First off, thanks for the kind words.

There is little duplication of components - or even of function - between the DC motor controller (which is essentially a very high power, non-isolated buck converter), the dc-dc converter (which is a low power, isolated flyback or similar topology converter, and the charger (which is a moderate power, power-factor corrected isolated full-bridge or similar topology).

It might make sense to combine the dc-dc and charger into one box using one control circuit, though, even though they don't share much of their power stage in common, mainly because you can't really justify making the dc-dc programmable via a web interface otherwise.


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## BiosDude (Mar 2, 2012)

Tesseract,

I'll take your word for it on the duplication of components. I'm just a BIOS engineer that fakes being able to read schematics so I can make the 'puter turn on!
Again, keep up the awesome work!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Team Evnetics,

Christopher Fisher has done a wonderful job updating your website!
I love this:

*The core development team here at Evnetics, LLC. consists of three slightly deranged dudes with complementary expertise in electrical, mechanical and software engineering. It is through pooling together our individual talents that we are able to come up with such uniquely optimized products and our brushed DC motor controller line is just the beginning! *

Awesome! It's nice to add some humor into the game, it gives customers some excitement.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Ron,

Is it possible to mount a video camera filming your motor(s) so we can watch how they, um, react under load? Good luck with this project!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Frank said:


> Ron,
> 
> Is it possible to mount a video camera filming your motor(s) so we can watch how they, um, react under load? Good luck with this project!


I wish I could, but with the blower system being mounted to cool the brushes I doubt there will be room. 

We are adding inside car and outside car video during racing.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Will the brush cooling blowers be anything new or are you using something like the converted turbochargers Jack uses?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, I hear my babies are almost ready for the stork. The nest is ready for these Hindu Gods! I will now post the history of "Shiva" for all who doubt her power! 
_____________________________________________

*Shiva* (







/ˈʃɪvə/; Sanskrit: शिव _Śiva_, meaning "auspicious one") is a major Hindu deity, and is the destroyer god or transformer among the Trimurti, the Hindu Trinity of the primary aspects of the divine. Shiva is a yogi who has notice of everything that happens in the world and is the main aspect of life. Yet one with great power, he lives a life of a sage at Mount Kailash.[2] In the Shaiva tradition of Hinduism, Shiva is seen as the Supreme God and has five important works: creator, preserver, destroyer, concealer, and revealer (to bless). In the Smarta tradition, he is regarded as one of the five primary forms of God.[3] Followers of Hinduism who focus their worship upon Shiva are called Shaivites or Shaivas (Sanskrit Śaiva).[4] Shaivism, along with Vaiṣṇava traditions that focus on Vishnu and Śākta traditions that focus on the goddess Shakti, is one of the most influential denominations in Hinduism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva#cite_note-Flood_1996.2C_p._17-2


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva#cite_note-Flood_1996.2C_p._17-2


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Soon I will post pictures of these two bad-azz controllers sitting one above the other on aluminum plates, should be a sight to see! When I hit the tracks including the GM Nationals all eyes will be on the these two monsters.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Ron: "Wanna see the fastest Drag on the planet?"









"Wanna see it again?"


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

GizmoEV said:


> Ron: "Wanna see the fastest Drag on the planet?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Nice car, but I must get you pictures of our 2012 Camaro, much nicer! and Faster!


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Thank you! Nice car, but I must get you pictures of our 2012 Camaro, much nicer! and Faster!


I didn't hunt around your site much but couldn't resist the "Fastest gun in the west!" connection.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

As most of you know we will be installing two Shiva controllers. The lower controller will site on the aluminum plate, the upper will sit on 1/2" lexan base clear, this second level will rest on the front roll cage over the first Shiva. Should look very cool being able to view both Shiva controllers.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> As most of you know we will be installing two Shiva controllers. The lower controller will site on the aluminum plate, the upper will sit on 1/2" lexan base clear, this second level will rest on the front roll cage over the first Shiva. Should look very cool being able to view both Shiva controllers.


The lexan may crack considering the weight of Shiva and the shock loads you may be able to generate. The devil is in the details.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

coulombKid said:


> The lexan may crack


Good enough for Apollo...

Also, it's not safety glass, if it were to crack, say when Ron's upside down or in a wall or something, it's not going to crumble and worsen the situation. Replacing the lexan in such a situation would be one of the least expenses.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

coulombKid said:


> The lexan may crack considering the weight of Shiva and the shock loads you may be able to generate. The devil is in the details.


I thank you for your concern, but lexan is stronger than you may realize. First lexan is used as bullet proof windows, second it is the only non-glass type of window the NHRA & IHRA allow on drag cars. It is very hard to chip, it bends well, and is very very strong. Calculating the weight of the Shiva 1/2" thick lexan will do the trick. Remember, I had a lexan box with 450lbs of batteries sitting upside down and not one crack.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

I know you have been busy, but if you get a minute I have a question. We want to collect all our data from every test with these new controllers, does the controller have the ability to store data or do I need to race with a computer mounted in the car?

Ron


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Should be able to capture data using a USB flash drive.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> We want to collect all our data from every test with these new controllers, does the controller have the ability to store data or do I need to race with a computer mounted in the car?


Errr, that's work in progress. It's been work in progress somewhere since version 1.2 but there's always been something else that's been prioritized higher for every release so it's been bumped to next release every time...

It's scheduled for software release 1.6 and this time I think it'll hold too (we're running out of other features to implement...). Problem is that it's a rather big change since I have to rewrite pretty much all the network related code too (webserver, network logger etc) since the internal storage and the network share the same internal data bus (maybe wasn't my brightest idea suggesting that back in whenever it was, but, well, hindsight's 20/20 and all that).

So WHEN will 1.6 be released...?

Sorry, don't have a date as of now.... 



Salty9 said:


> Should be able to capture data using a USB flash drive.


Um. No USB in the Solitons. Only Ethernet.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

Maybe something like Raspberry Pi with a multigig USB flash drive? Cheap and solid. Should just work (TM)


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

WarpedOne said:


> Maybe something like Raspberry Pi with a multigig USB flash drive? Cheap and solid. Should just work (TM)


 or

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw...udhi=&_sop=12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Salty9 said:


> or
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw...udhi=&_sop=12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=


Um. No. That's a network USB-device. You can't connect two USB-devices (like Ethernet and storage) to eachother since USB is strictly master-slave-oriented. You need a host (ie a master) to copy the information back and forth (and to handle the IP-data, since the Ethernet device isn't smart enough for that on it's own).

If you don't mind to do some programming a Raspberry Pi could handle it, but a small notebook is probably a lot simpler to use and will only add 1-2 kg to the total weight of the car...


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

Ron I am working on an application that will log data But it runs on a little android device.
I'm not sure if you can get a way with a crossover cable using a laptop and the Evnetics controller but even if you can you have a special situation you are gonna have TWO devices to log data from. You'll need two of something, both controllers have the same IP. 
two IP's?
two routers ?
two laptops?
two skinny little androids, 1 router, 2 IP.s ?
also in order for the log to be "worth" anything it needs to be formatted so Evnetics can look at it and make sense of the data 


DD 
see you when you bring over that load tester


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

_*Thank you guys!*_


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I thank you for your concern, but lexan is stronger than you may realize. First lexan is used as bullet proof windows, second it is the only non-glass type of window the NHRA & IHRA allow on drag cars. It is very hard to chip, it bends well, and is very very strong. Calculating the weight of the Shiva 1/2" thick lexan will do the trick. Remember, I had a lexan box with 450lbs of batteries sitting upside down and not one crack.


 Back when I was insane enough to produce DOT class three explosives the company furnished 1/2 " thk Lexan as "ballistic protection" inside production bays. True to form as dyed-in-the-wool gun totin republicans in the great state of Arizona samples of the Lexan made it to the range. .308 sailed right through it no-problem. Later research indicates that the presidential ride laminates this stuff till it's 4" thick to pass the Ma'duce test. No wonder the limo is so heavy.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

FWIW: I had a sunroom made from 3/8 "Lexan" (GE's trade name) and with a 2 ft span on 2X4's and it exceeded a 90 psi live load. I cant see where Ron will exceed this and his will be thicker.

perhaps on a monster wheelie?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

[h1]Throttle assembly[/h1]
Our throttle assembly uses a high quality OEM throttle position sensor (TPS) that is rated for 1 million full cycles. It is then mounted to a solid block of machined 6061-T6 aluminum to mate with an indexable shaft supported by a sealed ball bearing and with an additional return spring and mechanical stops. The TPS and its electrical connector are fully sealed. No stamped steel and exposed potentiometer element here!
*
I need instructions on how to wire two Shiva's to one TPS sensor?* *if Possible?*

http://evnetics.com/products.php?prod=throttle


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Ron could you not stack the TPS's on a common shaft and calibrate the voltages together for each controller. Or build a pigtail from the TPS to each controller. either way they should see the same voltages or signal. Duke


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh and by the way good build on the new car hope that everything goes exactly as planned this year for your team. It looks like one of the cleanest builds I have seen in a while. I am just starting my project this summer 63 Falcon mostly fiberglass and a lot of lithium and hopefully a controller like yours. I figure the 10.5 freak show guys can use smaller tires to go 7s they might just work for my conversion. and save a little weight as well.Duke


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks Guys!

Jeff, are you still alive? 

Ron


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *I need instructions on how to wire two Shiva's to one TPS sensor?* *if Possible?*http://evnetics.com/products.php?prod=throttle



Didn't you already ask and receive an answer to this in a thread you started about "two controllers and two motors" awhile back?

At any rate, the short answer is to power the TPS from one controller but feed the throttle signal two both controllers. Disable both controllers when you want to calibrate the throttle in either one of them. Use separate battery cables for as long as possible from each controller to minimize the ripple from each controller interacting (do not connect their battery terminals in parallel with short jumpers).

If you require additional _technical_ assistance then please send an email to our support address and someone should respond to it within 24 hours.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

Did someone piss in your FruitLoops? I have a very busy life with twin sons starting school, two business that are almost bankrupt, and a race car I am trying to finish. I forgot the past information about the throttle, dude cut me some slack! 

Ron



Tesseract said:


> Didn't you already ask and receive an answer to this in a thread you started about "two controllers and two motors" awhile back?
> 
> At any rate, the short answer is to power the TPS from one controller but feed the throttle signal two both controllers. Disable both controllers when you want to calibrate the throttle in either one of them. Use separate battery cables for as long as possible from each controller to minimize the ripple from each controller interacting (do not connect their battery terminals in parallel with short jumpers).
> 
> If you require additional _technical_ assistance then please send an email to our support address and someone should respond to it within 24 hours.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Ron, are you using any external blowers on these motors or did you leave the stock internal fans in place?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Did someone piss in your FruitLoops? I have a very busy life with twin sons starting school, two business that are almost bankrupt, and a race car I am trying to finish. I forgot the past information about the throttle, dude cut me some slack!
> 
> Ron


I didn't pick up any nasty tone from his post :shrugs:


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> I didn't pick up any nasty tone from his post :shrugs:


I am not upset with him, just looking for some support and maybe a little EV love. LOL


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Frank said:


> Ron, are you using any external blowers on these motors or did you leave the stock internal fans in place?


Yes, we plan on installing external blowers to cool the comm and brushes. We had the stock fans removed at Warfield.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes, we plan on installing external blowers to cool the comm and brushes. We had the stock fans removed at Warfield.


What blowers are you using?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> What blowers are you using?


http://www.xsturbos.com/index.html


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*My Babies our home!*


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Congratulations, Twins!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Brute Force said:


> Congratulations, Twins!


*Twin Shiva Destroyers! Time to race.*


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Any specific laptop I need to down load this software?

Soliton1/Jr/Shiva software package version 1.5.1

Also, can I program the Shiva's without the main pack connected?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Your Shiva's should already have 1.5.1 installed.

You can use any laptop with an ethernet port and a web browser to connect to our controllers.


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes you can program controller without pack voltage. You will just see an Error thrown and a red header with that information at the top of the controller page.
At the bottom of page you might want to use the "disable controller" button while making adjustments. I guess I will go to 1.5 and check it out.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Well, whatever happened with the Warp III?


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