# [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All,

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts for me? Since the new Obama administration has rightfully re-invigorated the EV marketplace, very little progressive development has occurred for many years without any commercial drivers. Now that Obama has awoken the DOE to help fund and endorse the very wise renewable smart electric grid and EV based transportation architecture, the developments are going wild. Tesla was brave ( and smart) to begin during the dark ages but the muscle of the technology world is just now going wild. That suggests to me that during the next few years, EV components are likely to benefit greatly and will jump in cost/performance due to competition and innovation. So now that I'm wanting to move from my 13KW PV project top my C5 Corvette EV conversion, the timing looks premature. Does anyone else share that view? Any thoughts appreciated? 

It appears that innovation in batteries, electric motors, controllers and just about anything related to EVs is being pursued by so many. It won't take long before the Tesla Roadster which is very cool, is matched in performance and cost driven down. 

I have been looking at either buying a Tesla Roadster or converting my Chevy C5 Corvette to EV. I just completed the first phase of my project to derive all my energy from the sun by designing and building a 13KW PV system. I now want to move my primary transportation to EV and move to PG&Es E-9 TOU rates so both my home and auto energy is essentially all derived from sunlight. I have a system engineering background and started 3 high tech startups as a founder and can afford and want to "do it right". That doesn't mean throw money to the wind but build an EV that is both good performance and cost effective for that performance. I have just begun my research and am still rather naive but it immediately jumped out at me that EV has gone from "suppressed" by big oil to exploding due to the new Obama administration and DOE loans. 

Tesla saw the obvious and were brave to buck the suppression. If we don't move to EV with the electric power derived from renewable sources such as the sun, wind, geothermal, hydrokinetic etc... and away from fossil fuel burning transportation, Global Warming will become unstoppable and Peak Oil will arrive in the next decade or two. It doesn't take a rocket scientist and I'm sure most of the EV people already "get it" that its inevitable. 

I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600 RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller. These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be trying to provide drive trains to the light truck market. Does !
anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at what price? 

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and prices. Kokam, Valence etc.. 
Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm 
Valence - http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules

Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few years old.

thanks for any thoughts!

Tom


FYI

Here are a few things I have come across in my research that are interesting:

EV Help - http://evhelp.com/ 

Metric Mind - http://www.metricmind.com/

NBEA Battery presentation - www.nbeaa.org/presentations/batteries.ppt 


High End No Compromise EV conversion example - High End No Compromise EV conversion example 

Raser Technologies - http://www.rasertech.com/

Tesla Battery System - www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf 

Stanford "Technical Assessment of High Energy Batteries for light duty EVs" - http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/assessments/ev_battery_assessment.pdf

Stanford "A quantum leap forward for LI-Ion Battery Cathodes" - http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/-IUwoO0omIeF6HDYZPqYeg/2.9.3_Thomas_Web_Version.pdf

Tesla - "The Future of Cars is Electric - Brian Randall AAE Show 2008" http://www.aae-show.com/Presentations/Brian%20Randall%20Tesla%20presentation%20aae08%20Sept%2008.ppt 

Competitive Analysis of Tesla Motors - http://bear.cba.ufl.edu/dinopoulos/ECP5705/projects/CS-Telsa-Web.ppt
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If it seems pre-mature to be starting on something, then I'd not start with
the C5. Have you thought about converting something a little cheaper, with a
DC system and seeing how much performance you can squeeze from components
readily available. It would end up being much more inexpensive and may yield
some valuable time to experiment putting you in a better position to ride
the EV performance wave when it picks up speed.
Congrats on the 13kw PV system btw.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

First, just a reminder to you and others that the EVDL tries to be non-
political, so I encourage others to discuss only the EV-related parts of 
this post and not to debate such issues as partisan political background (if 
there is any) to current developments; the controversy over climate change, 
peak oil, and the like; and speculation about oil company collusion in 
allegedly suppressing EVs. All these thiings are interesting but there's a 
LOT of disagreement here over them, and I think it's better to stick with 
what we DO agree on - promoting EVs.

With that out of the way, I can tell you that you'll get more raw torque per 
dollar from a DC series motor. That's also the type that most folks here 
have the most experience with. I expect that you'll get lots of argument in 
favor of this motor (basically a forklift motor) if you ask the drag racers 
on the NEDRA list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/).

However, IMO other motor types, including sep-ex DC, AC induction, and DC 
brushless, have significant advantages. Cost isn't usually among them. 
That's not to say they're bad choices! (I happen to like AC induction, 
myself.) You'll find lots of discussion about this in the archive.

http://evdl.org/archive/

The proprietor of Metric Mind is on this list and he may want to weigh in 
with some comments on whether his gear would suit your goals. 

You might also get the kind of zoom you're looking for from a Solectria 
induction AC drive intended for buses. I think I remember seeing a few 
large Solectria drives being offered fairly cheaply as part of a distress 
lot recently, but that might have been something else. 

The "classic" choice for a high performance AC car has long been Alan 
Cocconi's AC Propulsion drive. They aren't cheap, though.

At one time some of the solar racers were using EMS Flux Vector drives. But 
I can't find their homepage any more, and fluxvector.com now redirects to an 
industrial vehicle manufacturer, so EMS may have vanished.

We've also fairly recently discussed converting a Corvette; IIRC a friend of 
Lee Hart recently did one. I vaguely remember some discussion about the 
problem of finding a suitable rear end; again, check the archive. 

Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more 
interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are 
smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette - rather 
than the newer, larger, heavier models. 

Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider, the 
lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio. (I have a 
longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders, 
for example. ;-)

As for the battery choice, I don't get the impression that many of the EV-
size lithium batteries are happy when producing large amounts of power. 
A123 cells seem to be but AFAIK they make only small cells, and what Tesla 
does with massive numbers of small cells sort of defies natural law ;-). 
I'm not daring (or patient) enough to try something similar. But that's 
about the extent of my lithium knowledge, so I'll let those with more 
experience take over from here. I will say that good AGM lead will very 
definitely give you the power youi're looking for.

Hope this helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Motor Trend had an article on how vehicle weights have ballooned. One notable exception: The Corvette. Corvettes have weighed close to the same for their history. Chevy has had to work hard with lightweight parts to do this, especially given the newer cars also have bigger brakes, bigger wheels, air conditioning, etc., all things that add weight.

The earlier Corvettes might be a bit smaller, but have worse aero.


I had a Fiat 850. Fun car, and it was very easy to push! It did get pushed alot.



________________________________
From: David Roden <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 3:14:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

... Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette - rather than the newer, larger, heavier models. 

Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider, the lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio. (I have a longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders, 
for example. ;-) ...




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can make your Corvette just as fast, or even faster than the Tesla -- if you have the $$ there's no need to make compromises. If nothing else, you could throw in the equivalent of 2 Tesla drivetrains and go make Teslas cry.

As Dave R. said, the NEDRA group has the go-fast experts. A123 batteries seem to be the favorite for the fastest vehicles.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com has a couple of Corvette conversions being blogged, plus a Camaro/Firebird or 2.




________________________________
From: Tom <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 12:00:35 PM
Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

... I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600 RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller. These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be trying to provide drive trains to the
light truck market. Does !
anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at what price? 

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and prices. Kokam, Valence etc.. 
Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm 
Valence - http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules

Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few years old. ...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I see your point but how about this. If I converted my C5 to achieve the 
experience and then upgraded it in a few years when the motor, controller 
and battery advancements looked good. My C5 is a Lemans special edition so I 
really want it to be my EV. If I buy another donor, then I get my experience 
on the wrong vehicle assuming I would not damage my C5 converting it. If I 
use the C5 as my initial donor to get actual C5 experience, knowing I will 
remove it later, then only the EV equipment will be duplicated. I've driven 
it for 5 years and want something new anyway but want it to be my EV 
eventually. Its similar to your strategy but I just convert my C5 twice 
rather than a cheap donor followed by my C5. Do you think the modifications 
to mount the EV motor/controller and batteries will do permanent or 
difficult to reverse changes? The engine compartment is rather large as is 
the hatchback and fuel tank area.

thoughts if I can afford it? Downsides?

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> If it seems pre-mature to be starting on something, then I'd not start 
> with
> the C5. Have you thought about converting something a little cheaper, with 
> a
> DC system and seeing how much performance you can squeeze from components
> readily available. It would end up being much more inexpensive and may 
> yield
> some valuable time to experiment putting you in a better position to ride
> the EV performance wave when it picks up speed.
> Congrats on the 13kw PV system btw.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry about any political oriented comments. I apologize.

My 2004 C5 Corvette is the Leman's special edition Z06 and has a curb weight 
of 3100lbs ( a little less than the standard due to the carbon fiber hood). 
The engine weighs about 450lbs. Is this really an excessive weight for an EV 
with higher performance components? Its has a great .29 aero drag yet lots 
of room in the engine compartment and gas tank/hatchback area for the EV 
conversion. I was considering buying a Tesla seriously and my C5's value is 
not spectacular while the Tesla is $110,00 before the options. It would 
probably run $125K+ with options tax etc.. If I convert my C5, I would break 
even if I spent $100K on the EV components and I would prefer my C5 over the 
Tesla look.

I would like comments or ideas on a few concerns due to my being a novice at 
EVs.

Is the 6spd transmission usable or even needed? The Tesla uses direct drive 
without any transmission since the AC induction motor produces high torque 
from zero on up in RPM. They told me they tried to put a 2 spd transmission 
in it and blew three manufacturers transmissions up due to the instant 
torque.

Is that torque problem destroying transmissions common and is direct drive 
with fixed ratios unusual or the norm?

Does the clutch help or since the torque starts at zero, it would still blow 
up something or burn out the clutch?

Is this only a problem with high performance motors?

Would my rear end be usable? What are the deciding factors beside gear 
ratio? If the motor is in its power band from zero to 5K then

Please excuse my ignorance as a beginner -

Does it make sense for example that if a motor had maximum torque from 0- 
5000 RPM, that would be a sensible target operational range?

If true then a motor spinning and has flat torque from say 0- 5000 RPM and 
my C5 rear tire diameter is 81" and one desires a speed range of 0-100MPH

then 100MPH = 1.67MPM so 1.67 miles = 5280 feet x 1.67= 8817 Feet when 
divided by 6.75 feet ( one 81" revolution) = 1306RPM at rear wheel.

So the rear axle must spin at 1306RPM for 100MPH at 81" or 6.75' tire 
diameter. If the motor spins at 5000RPM divided by 1306 = a ratio of about 
3.8 to 1.

So for a direct drive, there must be a 3.8 to one gear ratio slowing the 
motor RPMs down so 0-5000RPM = 0-100MPH.

Does that make sense and is it relevant? How does the HP curve fit in? Or is 
it desirable to use a transmission as with a gasoline engine to try and keep 
the Revs in a tight band with an electric motor?

The C5 corvette has highly tuned suspension so the new EV weight 
distribution, unless matched somehow, could cause havoc with the handling?

thanks

Tom





http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pictures/Cars/chevrolet/corvette_z06_commemorative_2004/2004_chevrolet_corvette_z06_commemorative_edition-4.jpg
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Motor Trend had an article on how vehicle weights have ballooned. One 
> notable exception: The Corvette. Corvettes have weighed close to the same 
> for their history. Chevy has had to work hard with lightweight parts to do 
> this, especially given the newer cars also have bigger brakes, bigger 
> wheels, air conditioning, etc., all things that add weight.
>
> The earlier Corvettes might be a bit smaller, but have worse aero.
>
>
> I had a Fiat 850. Fun car, and it was very easy to push! It did get pushed 
> alot.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Roden <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 3:14:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
> ... Personally, I think if I were going to convert a 'Vette, I'd be more 
> interested in converting one of the early (pre-'68) Sting Rays, which are 
> smaller and I hope lighter - or perhaps the late 60s vintage 'Vette - 
> rather than the newer, larger, heavier models.
>
> Or, better, something still smaller and lighter; the lighter the glider, 
> the lower the power you need for an outrageous hp:kg ratio. (I have a 
> longstanding, unrequited, completely irrational lust for Fiat 850 Spyders,
> for example. ;-) ...
>
>
>
>
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> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a $100K budget. How will that do?

Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dymaxion" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> You can make your Corvette just as fast, or even faster than the Tesla -- 
> if you have the $$ there's no need to make compromises. If nothing else, 
> you could throw in the equivalent of 2 Tesla drivetrains and go make 
> Teslas cry.
>
> As Dave R. said, the NEDRA group has the go-fast experts. A123 batteries 
> seem to be the favorite for the fastest vehicles.
>
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com has a couple of Corvette conversions being 
> blogged, plus a Camaro/Firebird or 2.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tom <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, October 5, 2009 12:00:35 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
> ... I own a 2004 C5 Corvette special edition and want to convert it to an 
> EV. Since my power is free from sunlight, I would like the best 
> performance, similar to the Tesla Roadster albeit my Corvette is heavier 
> and won't be a rocket. I my initial searching, the electric motor closest 
> to the Tesla in performance is the Raser Technologies Symetron P-200 AC 
> induction motor. - Specs .It produces over 400 lbs of torque up to 4600 
> RPM and then falls off to about 200 at 10K RPM. It will produce 134 HP 
> continuously and 268 HP peak. They also provide the PCU-200 controller. 
> These appear to be the highest performance drive components but its not 
> clear if they are really available. Does anyone know? Does anyone know of 
> a comparable alternative? These have been used in a Formula One and the 
> PHEV Hummer, Schwartnagger has been seen driving. That suggests that 
> prototypes are available and work and Raser Technologies appears to be 
> trying to provide drive trains to the
> light truck market. Does !
> anyone know anything about these and if they are available anywhere and at 
> what price?
>
> Can anyone offer any thoughts on the most recent battery choices and 
> prices. Kokam, Valence etc..
> Kokam application - http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm
> Valence - http://www.valence.com/products/battery_modules
>
> Does anyone have any general advice or pointers/links similar to the 
> Metric Mind "High End No Compromise EV conversion example" It seems a few 
> years old. ...
>
>
>
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
> >
> > Tom
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
> >
> > Tom
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the ideas.

I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be 
quite good. Some of the latest items like this are being swallowed up by 
auto manufacturers . The list of partners they have and their IPO plus 
government incentives usually makes it hard for individuals to get unless 
connected. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into both the propulsion 
systems.

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I have a $100K budget. How will that do?
> >>
> >> Tom
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are concerned about weight and still want a Corvette feel, you
may want to check out a Factory 5 GTM Supercar.
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html

You combine their kit ($20k) with components form a C5 and a Porsche
rear end. Total ICE weight is 2200 lbs.

For about $55k, you could have a Tesla beater.

Brian






> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Thanks for all the ideas.
> >
> > I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off fossil 
fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform 
something like the Tesla I drove, that is my desire.

I'm just starting my due diligence on whether anything about my C5 like 
weight, active handling etc.. is a show stopper. Starting at 3100 lbs and 
removing the engine at 450 lbs, full gas tank and transmission plus misc 
should get me down to maybe 2300 lbs. Then I have to add back batteries and 
drive system. I'm hoping to find someone who has actually done it and 
confronted the hidden issues.

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Pikkula" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> If you are concerned about weight and still want a Corvette feel, you
> may want to check out a Factory 5 GTM Supercar.
> http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html
>
> You combine their kit ($20k) with components form a C5 and a Porsche
> rear end. Total ICE weight is 2200 lbs.
>
> For about $55k, you could have a Tesla beater.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Thanks for all the ideas.
> >>
> >> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom wrote:
> > Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off fossil
> > fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform
> > something like the Tesla I drove, that is my desire.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Thanks for all the ideas.
> >
> > I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Note that I'm not affiliated with EV Components in any way; I'm saying
this based on his post to the EVDL on September 20.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Quite right; it's possible to get A123 batteries, but only a few
> > people have managed to get them, while I know of several who have
> > expressed interest and been turned away.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks - Its not a C5 but it will be very helpful given he has it well 
documented.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?




> > Tom wrote:
> >> Cool car but I really want to add the EV to my PV system so I'm off
> >> fossil
> >> fuels on onto sunlight and I love my C5 and if I could get it to perform
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to be
> >> quite good.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, I independently kept running into A123 and have some presentations from 
them. One claims they received almost $200M or 10% of the DOE battery 
funding available. There is no doubt the product has DOE, GE, Chrysler, 
Shanghi Automotive etc.. backing and due diligence. They look like one of 
the best.

Has anyone seen Maxwell UltraCapacitors used in conjunction with Lithium 
batteries and a controller? The UltraCaps provide very fast burst currents 
both in and out complimenting the batteries which cannot deal with the 
initial demands of the motors while the batteries handle the longer term 
continuous demands. There are some good papers on this. Just about any good 
Lithium battery can be complemented with UltraCaps with the right 
series/protection configuration.

http://www.dallaspels.org/css/Pages/Archive_meetings/Presentations/Dallas_PELS091207-Miller_3.pdf


The trick seems finding a package that all plays together with a motor, 
controller, BMS, UltraCaps etc..

I'm getting some great pointers to suppliers and ideas.

I designed and built my PV system from scratch but this is a little 
trickier.

thanks

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Note that I'm not affiliated with EV Components in any way; I'm saying
> this based on his post to the EVDL on September 20.
>
> -Morgan LaMoore
>
>


> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Quite right; it's possible to get A123 batteries, but only a few
> >> people have managed to get them, while I know of several who have
> >> expressed interest and been turned away.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ...
> > Has anyone seen Maxwell UltraCapacitors used in conjunction with Lithium
> > batteries and a controller? The UltraCaps provide very fast burst currents
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes I know its risky. That is why what ever approach I take, I will be sure 
it can be re-upgraded and the batteries ( most expensive) are re-usable. The 
A123 batteries look low risk but the cost will certainly go down as their 
volumes pick up. I certainly see a risk of being disappointed and having to 
do it all over again but my donor C5 is worth maybe $25-30K and unless I 
give up, it won't be lost and only the first pass components and effort 
might be for naught. I'm still pondering it. It depends on whether I can 
find a good system and some advisors to help.

I just designed and built myself from scratch research a 13KW ground mount 
PV system on a hillside and built the mounting frames, ran all the 1000's of 
feet of #8 THWN wire underground, two 7000 watt Sunny Boy inverters, two 
midnight fuse/combiners I custom modified, a Square D combiner breakers, an 
AC 200,000A fused disconnect with difficult tie in. Its not as mechanically 
complex but electrically of the same magnitude and it works perfectly. It 
took months of research to know enough to even begin so I'm sure this will 
also take months to decide feasibility, but I'll probably do it as I'm 
amazed at the number of EV people like yourselves and the options and 
details information I have found in a few days. Its the matching to my C5 
that worries me and my line side tap worried me in a similar way but I found 
experts to give me advice. Hopefully this will happen again and I'll have my 
Tesla-Vette by me and Chevy!


One of my "devils in the details" concerns is the active handling system. 
I'm no mechanical engineer but the system is very finely tuned and my 
commerative version has an even more advanced version than the regular 2004 
Z06. My concern is that the cars center of gravity and weight distribution 
are built into the system. It has some compensation for a rear empty or full 
tank and some luggage ( a few hundred pounds in the lower and center rear) 
and one or two people inside behind the front wheels ( another few hundred 
pounds). If I remove a few hundred pound transmission in the lower center, 
500 lb engine in the front center, I will have to do my best at not changing 
the center of gravity but that would mean putting some batteries in the rear 
to match the gas tank, fuel and luggage weight and then putting the rest in 
the engine compartment. My concern is whether I can really do a good enough 
job of matching so the active handling and traction control work properly. 
Its only a guess but if I put lots of batteries in the rear, I'd improve 
traction weight but my active handling might behave quite oddly. I'd really 
like to find someone who has done this on a C5 with similar active handling 
to see if its really an issue. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C5_Z06#Active_Handling .

Does anyone know what the legal issues are when one does an EV conversion? 
Is it still street legal even though the original safety testing is void and 
how insurance companies view this sort of thing?

thanks

Tom








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?




> > Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> I have read over and over that the A123 batteries you mention appear to
> >>> be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The reason for the supercaps is instantaneous power. The combined internal 
resistance of all the cells limits the instantaneous current. The internal 
resistance of the Ultracaps is far lower and they will provide an enormous 
surge of current during the first hundred milli-seconds when the motor wants 
to accelerate. Then the current begins to flatten and the battery takes 
over. It helps in both charging regenerative and acceleration during the 
initial surge. They won't effect the miles per charge but will help 
acceleration and protect the batteries somewhat by providing a surge 
limiting effect. They will also store regenerative current if the battery 
limits it so its not lost. Its simply a short term reservoir for current 
providing buffering or evening of surge spikes. I have a few presentations I 
downloaded that describe it.

take a look at

www.engin.umd.umich.edu/vi/VI2007Ehsani.pdf

or

http://www.dallaspels.org/css/Pages/Archive_meetings/Presentations/Dallas_PELS091207-Miller_3.pdf

or

http://www.chemistry.oregonstate.edu/courses/hc399/Caps%20for%20HEV%20and%20PHEV.ppt

For details on Super Caps in Evs.

Tom




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Has anyone seen Maxwell UltraCapacitors used in conjunction with Lithium
> >> batteries and a controller? The UltraCaps provide very fast burst
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

> I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts for me?
> 2004 C5 Corvette special edition

My first question is what is the actual goal; do you want the car, or do you 
want to do the conversion? The $100k budget you gave is well into the realm 
where several different people have suggested that for that amount they 
could deliver something amazing.

Next question: What do you consider the performance to be? To some people 
the performance is 0-60mph, 1/4 mile time, 60-0, corner speed, top speed, 
control during a slide or something else? It will be very difficult to get 
an EV that will brake like a well tuned corvette, the extra weight of the 
batteries will be difficult, same with corner speed, the added weight is 
problematic. In acceleration EVs have a significant advantage, finding a way 
to get 400hp worth of electric will give you better acceleration than a 
400hp internal combustion.

The top speed is actually related to the clutch and transmission question 
you had. A fixed ratio will be the most dependable, but will require a major 
compromise between top speed and acceleration. A transmission is more moving 
parts and with a powerful motor the ability of the transmission and clutch 
to stay intact is compromised (just as doubling the power of your internal 
combustion engine requires significant tranny/clutch changes). With an 
electric motor that can deliver 2000lbft of torque the transmission and 
clutch need to be chosen carefully.

Control during a slide can be increased in an EV, one of the best techniques 
for this is putting the driver at the center of mass, since the EV 
components weigh a lot the center of mass can be relocated closer to the 
driver. This works because humans perceive control better when rotation is 
around the person (specifically the center of the chest if you want to be 
precise).

The Symetron you found is actually not a bad choice for this, if their curve 
is correct it if fairly limited in the instant torque department (spec says 
306lbft), but this is EV what do you think about having two? or four? Since 
it is only an 11 inch diameter there are plenty of places to put it in the 
care, the drive shaft tunnel is already basically that size, so it can be 
used with a substantially upgraded rear diff and final drive to improve 
performance further. The biggest problem I see in terms of performance is 
that the front wheels split the engine bay, the prime location for the 
batteries, this moves the weight distribution more towards the front, adding 
batteries to the back might be good.

There are of course many variables, but I suspect you're going to end up 
with having someone else do it, I'm sure you'll have plenty of options. The 
first thing I would do is find a blown up 2004, dead engine, gutted 
internals, rusted a/c pump, etc, build there first, then once everything is 
built, move it to the final location. This will allow you to build carefully 
and enjoy your corvette while you wait.

Way OT: Any interest in making a venture capital investment completely 
unrelated to anything EV? And this applied to everyone.
Joe


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a side comment.

In general, this just sounds like a project up in this alley:
http://ssi-racing.com/order.asp

-kert



> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The reason for the supercaps is instantaneous power. The combined internal
> > resistance of all the cells limits the instantaneous current. The internal
> > resistance of the Ultracaps is far lower and they will provide an enormous
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tom
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

***Major snip***
One of my "devils in the details" concerns is the active handling system. 
I'm no mechanical engineer but the system is very finely tuned and my 
commerative version has an even more advanced version than the regular 2004 
Z06. My concern is that the cars center of gravity and weight distribution 
are built into the system.

thanks

Tom


[Chris Stephens] 
Tom,

I'm not sure about reprogramming the stock system but you may be able to
replace it but use the stock sensors. Check out Racelogic's Traction Control
for an aftermarket traction system.

Just a thought for you, because the C5 has the transmission, clutch, and
diff all in one gizmo in the rear. If you go Direct drive you may be able to
move the motor to the rear by separating the transmission from the diff.
That gives you the entire engine compartment for batteries and control. That
and the motor plate should be rather simple. 

Stub



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom wrote:
> > The combined internal resistance of all the cells limits the
> > instantaneous current. The internal resistance of the Ultracaps is
> > far lower and they will provide an enormous surge of current during
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Tom" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:00 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
> 
>> I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts for me?
>> 2004 C5 Corvette special edition
> 
> My first question is what is the actual goal; do you want the car, or do you 
> want to do the conversion? The $100k budget you gave is well into the realm 
> where several different people have suggested that for that amount they 
> could deliver something amazing.

My goal is to 1) a new car with performance similar to my gasoline Corvette and the esthetics of my Corvette - a sports car. 2) After removing my home from commercial power via a 13KW solar PV system, I now want to remove myself from the oil energy market with an EV 3) I want the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself as with the solar PV, rather than just buying a Tesla.

My existing C5 http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2004/index.shtml


> 
> Next question: What do you consider the performance to be? To some people 
> the performance is 0-60mph, 1/4 mile time, 60-0, corner speed, top speed, 
> control during a slide or something else? It will be very difficult to get 
> an EV that will brake like a well tuned corvette, the extra weight of the 
> batteries will be difficult, same with corner speed, the added weight is 
> problematic. In acceleration EVs have a significant advantage, finding a way 
> to get 400hp worth of electric will give you better acceleration than a 
> 400hp internal combustion.

My idea of performance is good acceleration from a standing start - i.e you feel pushed back into the seat like the Tesla does - I believe after owning a few Corvettes and driving the Tesla twice, the Tesla would jump out ahead of my Corvette from a start but my Corvette would pass it at about 3/16 of a mile. I only rarely use the power of my Corvette ( maybe 1% of the time) but when entering the freeway, passing or a very occasional safe use, its nice to know the acceleration power is there when you need it. I wouldn't expect the EV Corvette to match the gas version in cornering or stopping due to the added weight ( do you know how much weight I would expect to add roughly ) but should be ok and not be awful because the active handling is misbehaving. 

If it met these numbers I would be happy - I would be thrilled the closer it got to my exsiting version or the Tesla

0-60MPH in 4-5 seconds - (its now 3.9 seconds with gas - Tesla is the same)
1/4 mile in the 13-14 range ( now is about 12 seconds)
60-0 stopping of at least 150 feet ( now its 125 ft) - Improved brakes can be added
top speed 110-125MPH
Cornering - like a good quality sedan but not like the Corvette - No weird behavior from active system


> 
> The top speed is actually related to the clutch and transmission question 
> you had. A fixed ratio will be the most dependable, but will require a major 
> compromise between top speed and acceleration. A transmission is more moving 
> parts and with a powerful motor the ability of the transmission and clutch 
> to stay intact is compromised (just as doubling the power of your internal 
> combustion engine requires significant tranny/clutch changes). With an 
> electric motor that can deliver 2000lbft of torque the transmission and 
> clutch need to be chosen carefully.

I'm quite ok with a direct drive system. I have driven a 6 spd for many years and the Tesla was ok. I actually prefer the simplicity an lower weight. My existing final drive ratio is in the diff is 3.42 to 1. If my calculation is right, at 5000 RPM with a 3.42 ratio, that is 112 MPH. I believe that's pretty close to what I would choose. I have looked at a few AC induction power curves and 0-5000 seems the torque band. Your thoughts?




> 
> Control during a slide can be increased in an EV, one of the best techniques 
> for this is putting the driver at the center of mass, since the EV 
> components weigh a lot the center of mass can be relocated closer to the 
> driver. This works because humans perceive control better when rotation is 
> around the person (specifically the center of the chest if you want to be 
> precise).

The C5 has both ABS and traction control. Unfortuneatly the traction control would not work in the EV unless there was some way to coordinate the motor cotroller with the traction controller. Because the C5 rear storage and gas tank below are 50% in front of the rear wheels as opposed to behind them, trying to keep the battery weight inside the rear wheel line and partially in the engine compartment, should allow the center of gravity to be front biased centered and fairly low.

> 
> The Symetron you found is actually not a bad choice for this, if their curve 
> is correct it if fairly limited in the instant torque department (spec says 
> 306lbft), but this is EV what do you think about having two? or four? Since 
> it is only an 11 inch diameter there are plenty of places to put it in the 
> care, the drive shaft tunnel is already basically that size, so it can be 
> used with a substantially upgraded rear diff and final drive to improve 
> performance further. The biggest problem I see in terms of performance is 
> that the front wheels split the engine bay, the prime location for the 
> batteries, this moves the weight distribution more towards the front, adding 
> batteries to the back might be good.

lYes. That Symetron looked very nice but I had one person here say rather poor things about Raser's claims. Except that, it looks marvelous. I believe the batteries can be split with some in the engine compartment closer to the back to mimic the engine/transmission weight and the remainder in a compartment behind the sets and low and roughly where the fuel tank will be removed both behind and in front of the rear axle.

Why do you believe a substantially upgraded differential is need? Will the torque destroy my stock version even if its a pretty rugged Z06 diif? There are lots of racing components for C5's so getting a beefed up differential should not be difficult. They put 800HP engines in the C5-R.

> 
> There are of course many variables, but I suspect you're going to end up 
> with having someone else do it, I'm sure you'll have plenty of options. The 
> first thing I would do is find a blown up 2004, dead engine, gutted 
> internals, rusted a/c pump, etc, build there first, then once everything is 
> built, move it to the final location. This will allow you to build carefully 
> and enjoy your corvette while you wait.

cNot a bad idea. Once I have the kinks worked out, transferring the setup to miy C5 would be fairly easy. Its worth the investment in a blown up C5.

thanks

Tom

> 
> Way OT: Any interest in making a venture capital investment completely 
> unrelated to anything EV? And this applied to everyone.
> Joe
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> 
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> The first thing I would do is find a blown up 2004, dead engine, gutted
>> internals, rusted a/c pump, etc, build there first, then once everything is
>> built, move it to the final location. This will allow you to build carefully
>> and enjoy your corvette while you wait.
>
> cNot a bad idea. Once I have the kinks worked out, transferring the setup
> to miy C5 would be fairly easy. Its worth the investment in a blown up C5.

This is amusing.
I exchanged emails with a neighbor who goes to off-lease auctions
on behalf of others. meanwhile, he blew up the engine in his
Honda S2000. I offered to find him a buyer on EVDL.
He claimed his sports car would be better dead than electric.

And then Tesla debuted.....

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Chris,

It does sound like direct drive with motor tucked into the transmission/driveshaft channel followed by putting as many batteries as possible up front along with electronics would be the best match to the current center of gravity and all around cleanest. If I needed more batteries, they can fit in the rear but your layout is ideal if it works. It seems safer also. I will investigate aftermarket suspension and differentials.

Does anyone have details on how to select a differential besides ratio. I'm just guessing but even though the Corvette V8 LS6 has plenty of torque and HP, they both come on smoothly ramping up with RPM. Most of the electric motor curves have the torque going straight up to maximum which is going to really rough from the motor shaft to tires. The Tesla salesman told me they blew up 3 two speed transmission designs from 3 major suppliers because of that instant torque. I would think the motor controller could use current limiting based on RPM to prevent that if they chose too. 

What I mean is soften the raw motor torque electronically and make it adjustable. It would not take much softening. If I were to rev my C5 to 5000RPM and pop the clutch, I would hit the drive train with a mighty potent torque pulse and either blow my clutch or spin my tires. If one uses a transmission and clutch than the driver softens the torque pulse as the clutch is released with finesse. Is there anyone who understands this general problem and why the existing C5 differential ( assuming the ratio works) isn't strong enough given the LS6 engine produces 405HP (302KW) at 6000RPM and 400 lb-ft ( 542N/M) at 4800RPM. Those numbers are similar to a very nice AC induction motor but just at minimum RPM. But if I rev to 4500RPM and pop the clutch with my LS6 engine, the impulse is similar. Do any of the motor controllers monitor RPM and prevent the instant torque curve automatically? If not, why? It seems a trivial thing to do.

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chris stephens" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Tom
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:19 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
> 
> ***Major snip***
> One of my "devils in the details" concerns is the active handling system. 
> I'm no mechanical engineer but the system is very finely tuned and my 
> commerative version has an even more advanced version than the regular 2004 
> Z06. My concern is that the cars center of gravity and weight distribution 
> are built into the system.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> [Chris Stephens] 
> Tom,
> 
> I'm not sure about reprogramming the stock system but you may be able to
> replace it but use the stock sensors. Check out Racelogic's Traction Control
> for an aftermarket traction system.
> 
> Just a thought for you, because the C5 has the transmission, clutch, and
> diff all in one gizmo in the rear. If you go Direct drive you may be able to
> move the motor to the rear by separating the transmission from the diff.
> That gives you the entire engine compartment for batteries and control. That
> and the motor plate should be rather simple. 
> 
> Stub
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I may be wrong, but clutch drops on electric motors don't seem like a good
idea anyway ? (overspeed possibility ? not really needed?)
Drag racers like White Zombie use a custom made diff, this is purely
theoretical but I'd say that the stock C5 rear end is maybe tougher than the
Datsun one was?
good questions ... maybe someone smarter than me can weigh in  ...
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:50 AM
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> I want the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself as with the solar PV, 
> rather than just buying a Tesla.

> 0-60MPH in 4-5 seconds - (its now 3.9 seconds with gas - Tesla is the 
> same)
> 1/4 mile in the 13-14 range ( now is about 12 seconds)

That's not setting the bar very high. Just as an example White Zombie is a 
DC, lead acid system, does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds, 1/4 mile in 11.466 @ 
114mph. A good highpower AC with lithium should do better

> 60-0 stopping of at least 150 feet ( now its 125 ft) - Improved brakes can 
> be added
> top speed 110-125MPH
> Cornering - like a good quality sedan but not like the Corvette - No weird 
> behavior from active system

Doing it from memory and rough estimates that handling shouldn't be 
difficult in a corvette, the center of gravity will still be low, stiffen 
the entire suspension especially the sway bars, it should deliver good, 
consistent cornering, but a rough ride.

> I'm quite ok with a direct drive system. I have driven a 6 spd for many 
> years and the Tesla was ok. I actually prefer the simplicity an lower 
> weight. My existing final drive ratio is in the diff is 3.42 to 1. If my 
> calculation is right, at 5000 RPM with a 3.42 ratio, that is 112 MPH. I 
> believe that's pretty close to what I would choose. I have looked at a few 
> AC induction power curves and 0-5000 seems the torque band. Your thoughts?

The torque curve usually extends quite a bit further, the Symetron says it 
goes to 10k, AC Propulsion claims 13k, the motor gets more efficient as you 
approach the upper limit, so I'd probably go with a total drive ratio of 
5-6:1, this will improve the acceleration and still keep a top speed of 
100+.

> The C5 has both ABS and traction control. Unfortuneatly the traction 
> control would not work in the EV unless there was some way to coordinate 
> the motor cotroller with the traction controller. Because the C5 rear 
> storage and gas tank below are 50% in front of the rear wheels as opposed 
> to behind them, trying to keep the battery weight inside the rear wheel 
> line and partially in the engine compartment, should allow the center of 
> gravity to be front biased centered and fairly low.

It's the front bias that is the problem. Ideally you want a 50-50 weight 
distribution, adding the weight to the front changes that. I don't know 
exactly where the gas tank is, but obviously it will be replaced with 
batteries, this changes the weight bias.

> I had one person here say rather poor things about Raser's claims. Except 
> that, it looks marvelous. I believe the batteries can be split with some 
> in the engine compartment closer to the back to mimic the 
> engine/transmission weight and the remainder in a compartment behind the 
> sets and low and roughly where the fuel tank will be removed both behind 
> and in front of the rear axle.

Well then go with the AC Propulsion version, I still say running twins would 
be more fun.

I deleted where you asked about the weight. Working from some very coarse 
estimates, 300wh/mile, 100wh/kg, and a 150 mile range, I come up with 450kg 
of battery, roughly 1000 pounds, twice the weight of the engine being 
removed.

> Why do you believe a substantially upgraded differential is need? Will the 
> torque destroy my stock version even if its a pretty rugged Z06 diif? 
> There are lots of racing components for C5's so getting a beefed up 
> differential should not be difficult. They put 800HP engines in the C5-R.

My concern is the smack of the torque hitting the diff, even the race diff 
doesn't necessarily get hit with 2000lbft of torque, and that level is 
almost reasonable in a high power conversion like yours. I was also looking 
at the possibility of getting rid of the leaf springs in favor of good coil 
overs, improving the cornering and handling at a slight cost in 1/4 mile 
time, and the ability to custom order a more optimal final drive. The real 
problem though is the torque, an electric motor can easily go from 0lbft to 
2000lbft in less than a millisecond, that much force doesn't do nice things 
to a diff.
Joe


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom,
It might help your advisers to describe your driving style. If you 
actually use the potential in the C5 you need a track able conversion. 
That demands a different set of parameters than tooling around town or 
exploring the country curves.
John



> Tom wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Ashwood" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks

The real
> problem though is the torque, an electric motor can easily go from 0lbft 
> to
> 2000lbft in less than a millisecond, that much force doesn't do nice 
> things
> to a diff.
> Joe

Does anyone know why the motor controller designers don't simple soften the 
torque? Since the motor controller applies the voltage and controls the 
current and the torque of the motor is based on applied E*I, if I stepped on 
the accelerator pedal, the motor controller can add just enough ramp to keep 
the torque within some defined limit. It would of course limit the 
instantaneous acceleration but they give "exhibition of speed" tickets 
anyway when on the road. If the motor controller could mimic a gasoline 
engines torque curve, then breaking gears would be something that could be 
adjusted by the UV installer or even on the dashboard. By limiting the rate 
of change of the power applied and frequency also in the case of an AC motor 
, why isn't this possible and a feature? The curves they show assume the 
power is applied to maximum almost instantly. What am I missing?

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Tom" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
>
>> I want the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself as with the solar PV,
>> rather than just buying a Tesla.
>
>> 0-60MPH in 4-5 seconds - (its now 3.9 seconds with gas - Tesla is the
>> same)
>> 1/4 mile in the 13-14 range ( now is about 12 seconds)
>
> That's not setting the bar very high. Just as an example White Zombie is a
> DC, lead acid system, does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds, 1/4 mile in 11.466 @
> 114mph. A good highpower AC with lithium should do better
>
>> 60-0 stopping of at least 150 feet ( now its 125 ft) - Improved brakes 
>> can
>> be added
>> top speed 110-125MPH
>> Cornering - like a good quality sedan but not like the Corvette - No 
>> weird
>> behavior from active system
>
> Doing it from memory and rough estimates that handling shouldn't be
> difficult in a corvette, the center of gravity will still be low, stiffen
> the entire suspension especially the sway bars, it should deliver good,
> consistent cornering, but a rough ride.
>
>> I'm quite ok with a direct drive system. I have driven a 6 spd for many
>> years and the Tesla was ok. I actually prefer the simplicity an lower
>> weight. My existing final drive ratio is in the diff is 3.42 to 1. If my
>> calculation is right, at 5000 RPM with a 3.42 ratio, that is 112 MPH. I
>> believe that's pretty close to what I would choose. I have looked at a 
>> few
>> AC induction power curves and 0-5000 seems the torque band. Your 
>> thoughts?
>
> The torque curve usually extends quite a bit further, the Symetron says it
> goes to 10k, AC Propulsion claims 13k, the motor gets more efficient as 
> you
> approach the upper limit, so I'd probably go with a total drive ratio of
> 5-6:1, this will improve the acceleration and still keep a top speed of
> 100+.
>
>> The C5 has both ABS and traction control. Unfortuneatly the traction
>> control would not work in the EV unless there was some way to coordinate
>> the motor cotroller with the traction controller. Because the C5 rear
>> storage and gas tank below are 50% in front of the rear wheels as opposed
>> to behind them, trying to keep the battery weight inside the rear wheel
>> line and partially in the engine compartment, should allow the center of
>> gravity to be front biased centered and fairly low.
>
> It's the front bias that is the problem. Ideally you want a 50-50 weight
> distribution, adding the weight to the front changes that. I don't know
> exactly where the gas tank is, but obviously it will be replaced with
> batteries, this changes the weight bias.
>
>> I had one person here say rather poor things about Raser's claims. Except
>> that, it looks marvelous. I believe the batteries can be split with some
>> in the engine compartment closer to the back to mimic the
>> engine/transmission weight and the remainder in a compartment behind the
>> sets and low and roughly where the fuel tank will be removed both behind
>> and in front of the rear axle.
>
> Well then go with the AC Propulsion version, I still say running twins 
> would
> be more fun.
>
> I deleted where you asked about the weight. Working from some very coarse
> estimates, 300wh/mile, 100wh/kg, and a 150 mile range, I come up with 
> 450kg
> of battery, roughly 1000 pounds, twice the weight of the engine being
> removed.
>
>> Why do you believe a substantially upgraded differential is need? Will 
>> the
>> torque destroy my stock version even if its a pretty rugged Z06 diif?
>> There are lots of racing components for C5's so getting a beefed up
>> differential should not be difficult. They put 800HP engines in the C5-R.
>
> My concern is the smack of the torque hitting the diff, even the race diff
> doesn't necessarily get hit with 2000lbft of torque, and that level is
> almost reasonable in a high power conversion like yours. I was also 
> looking
> at the possibility of getting rid of the leaf springs in favor of good 
> coil
> overs, improving the cornering and handling at a slight cost in 1/4 mile
> time, and the ability to custom order a more optimal final drive. The real
> problem though is the torque, an electric motor can easily go from 0lbft 
> to
> 2000lbft in less than a millisecond, that much force doesn't do nice 
> things
> to a diff.
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Most digital controllers (zilla, kelly, etc) do have programmable motor
current limits, which do limit the amount of torque the motor puts out.

Cheaper analogue (IMO poorer quality) controllers (curtis, ) do indeed have
a setable ramp, which limits the rate of increase in pwm.
IMO, limiting current by way of ramp is a poor second to the P-I loop used
in a digital controller.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tom
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2009 2:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

Thanks

The real
> problem though is the torque, an electric motor can easily go from 
> 0lbft to 2000lbft in less than a millisecond, that much force doesn't 
> do nice things to a diff.
> Joe

Does anyone know why the motor controller designers don't simple soften the
torque? Since the motor controller applies the voltage and controls the
current and the torque of the motor is based on applied E*I, if I stepped on
the accelerator pedal, the motor controller can add just enough ramp to keep
the torque within some defined limit. It would of course limit the
instantaneous acceleration but they give "exhibition of speed" tickets
anyway when on the road. If the motor controller could mimic a gasoline
engines torque curve, then breaking gears would be something that could be
adjusted by the UV installer or even on the dashboard. By limiting the rate
of change of the power applied and frequency also in the case of an AC motor
, why isn't this possible and a feature? The curves they show assume the
power is applied to maximum almost instantly. What am I missing?

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Ashwood" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Tom" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
>
>> I want the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself as with the solar PV,
>> rather than just buying a Tesla.
>
>> 0-60MPH in 4-5 seconds - (its now 3.9 seconds with gas - Tesla is the
>> same)
>> 1/4 mile in the 13-14 range ( now is about 12 seconds)
>
> That's not setting the bar very high. Just as an example White Zombie is a
> DC, lead acid system, does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds, 1/4 mile in 11.466 @
> 114mph. A good highpower AC with lithium should do better
>
>> 60-0 stopping of at least 150 feet ( now its 125 ft) - Improved brakes 
>> can
>> be added
>> top speed 110-125MPH
>> Cornering - like a good quality sedan but not like the Corvette - No 
>> weird
>> behavior from active system
>
> Doing it from memory and rough estimates that handling shouldn't be
> difficult in a corvette, the center of gravity will still be low, stiffen
> the entire suspension especially the sway bars, it should deliver good,
> consistent cornering, but a rough ride.
>
>> I'm quite ok with a direct drive system. I have driven a 6 spd for many
>> years and the Tesla was ok. I actually prefer the simplicity an lower
>> weight. My existing final drive ratio is in the diff is 3.42 to 1. If my
>> calculation is right, at 5000 RPM with a 3.42 ratio, that is 112 MPH. I
>> believe that's pretty close to what I would choose. I have looked at a 
>> few
>> AC induction power curves and 0-5000 seems the torque band. Your 
>> thoughts?
>
> The torque curve usually extends quite a bit further, the Symetron says it
> goes to 10k, AC Propulsion claims 13k, the motor gets more efficient as 
> you
> approach the upper limit, so I'd probably go with a total drive ratio of
> 5-6:1, this will improve the acceleration and still keep a top speed of
> 100+.
>
>> The C5 has both ABS and traction control. Unfortuneatly the traction
>> control would not work in the EV unless there was some way to coordinate
>> the motor cotroller with the traction controller. Because the C5 rear
>> storage and gas tank below are 50% in front of the rear wheels as opposed
>> to behind them, trying to keep the battery weight inside the rear wheel
>> line and partially in the engine compartment, should allow the center of
>> gravity to be front biased centered and fairly low.
>
> It's the front bias that is the problem. Ideally you want a 50-50 weight
> distribution, adding the weight to the front changes that. I don't know
> exactly where the gas tank is, but obviously it will be replaced with
> batteries, this changes the weight bias.
>
>> I had one person here say rather poor things about Raser's claims. Except
>> that, it looks marvelous. I believe the batteries can be split with some
>> in the engine compartment closer to the back to mimic the
>> engine/transmission weight and the remainder in a compartment behind the
>> sets and low and roughly where the fuel tank will be removed both behind
>> and in front of the rear axle.
>
> Well then go with the AC Propulsion version, I still say running twins 
> would
> be more fun.
>
> I deleted where you asked about the weight. Working from some very coarse
> estimates, 300wh/mile, 100wh/kg, and a 150 mile range, I come up with 
> 450kg
> of battery, roughly 1000 pounds, twice the weight of the engine being
> removed.
>
>> Why do you believe a substantially upgraded differential is need? Will 
>> the
>> torque destroy my stock version even if its a pretty rugged Z06 diif?
>> There are lots of racing components for C5's so getting a beefed up
>> differential should not be difficult. They put 800HP engines in the C5-R.
>
> My concern is the smack of the torque hitting the diff, even the race diff
> doesn't necessarily get hit with 2000lbft of torque, and that level is
> almost reasonable in a high power conversion like yours. I was also 
> looking
> at the possibility of getting rid of the leaf springs in favor of good 
> coil
> overs, improving the cornering and handling at a slight cost in 1/4 mile
> time, and the ability to custom order a more optimal final drive. The real
> problem though is the torque, an electric motor can easily go from 0lbft 
> to
> 2000lbft in less than a millisecond, that much force doesn't do nice 
> things
> to a diff.
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you have the money, you don't have to make compromises. The Killacycle A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as a suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells, plus add BMS and packaging cost. 3 of these packs would give you ~1000 hp, at only about 600 lbs! Range? Maybe 70 miles? Maybe alot more if driven gently?

Two 11 inch motors and 2 Zilla controllers would weigh about 500 lbs. I'd guess you could get around 800 lbs out of the car. So you are around 400 to 500 lbs heavier for an outrageously fast car.

If you want merely Tesla fast, go with ~600 lbs of A123 batteries (a mere 700+ hp possible, but you'd throttle that down to save the motor), a single 11 inch or 13 inch motor, and keep the tranny. Now you'd likely be lighter than the car was to start!

You should talk to http://www.ssinc.us/ . The real racers are on the NEDRA Yahoo group, and would be a great resource for your questions: http://www.nedra.com/ .




________________________________
From: Tom <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 12:51:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

... Its pretty obvious the weight of the batteries and drive train will be much 
heavier than what I'm taking out so its hard to see how I can get the 
handling performance but the weight is not relevant if You have enough 
horsepower and torque but that's not my favorite. I would hate to have C5 
acceleration onto a freeway and then have the car waver all over the road as 
I straighten out. The current C5 will accelerate in 2-3 seconds to 65 from 
20 and straighten out like a gazelle. I fear having the "Boat" effect where 
it sways all over the place when I'm accelerating and turning at the same 
time. dragsters go in a straight line ( or they crash). ...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In a message dated 10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes: 
> Subj: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing? 
> Date:10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[email protected]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have the money, you don't have to make compromises. The Killacycle 
> A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as a 
> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells, 
> plus add BMS and packaging cost. 3 of these packs would give you ~1000 hp, at 
> only about 600 lbs! Range? Maybe 70 miles? Maybe alot more if driven 
> gently?
> 
> Two 11 inch motors and 2 Zilla controllers would weigh about 500 lbs. I'd 
> guess you could get around 800 lbs out of the car. So you are around 400 to 
> 500 lbs heavier for an outrageously fast car.
> 
> If you want merely Tesla fast, go with ~600 lbs of A123 batteries (a mere 
> 700+ hp possible, but you'd throttle that down to save the motor), a single 
> 11 inch or 13 inch motor, and keep the tranny. Now you'd likely be lighter 
> than the car was to start!
> 
> You should talk to http://www.ssinc.us/ . The real racers are on the NEDRA 
> Yahoo group, and would be a great resource for your questions: 
> http://www.nedra.com/ .
> 
The quickest Street Legal Nedra Vech/TRUCK ran 11.08 at over 120mph.The 
drivetrain may be for sale. Dennis Building an even more powerful 
drivetrain!
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom,

I'm eager to see what comes of this!

I've always loved the vette, have the pleasure to drive my father's C6 
from time to time on some winding roads.. Even went to Spring Mountain 
Motorsports for their Corvette driving school a few years back.

If money is no object, there's a battery, controller, motor 
combination that will get you there. Finding a controller that will 
take that power (while being reliable) may be the biggest challenge.

I'm still saving my $ intending to convert my 99 Cougar daily driver, 
and would want that conversion to have more of a performance/long 
range goal. An EV Vette, built with performance in mind, would be a 
dream car..

Having driven C6s, I'd say the weight you're taking out (engine, 
trans, drive shaft, gas tank, etc) will be greater than the weight 
added by motor, batteries and controller... The main issue I see, 
regarding maintaining the feel of the C5, will be weight distribution, 
keeping it as close to 50/50 as possible.. You may need to seek out 
some lighter carbon fiber aftermarket body parts (and perhaps some 
lighter interior parts, seats perhaps) to give you some added 
flexibility in this...

I think another issue you may find is resistance from other vette 
owners regarding this transplant operation... you may find issues with 
this build that require someone familiar with vette components/ 
repairs, where they'll hear what you're doing, and shake their heads 
(at best), hang up, or berate you (at worst)... Of course, if you 
succeed in converting your vette into a performance EV, you may have 
some fun showing them all some great burnouts ;-)

Good luck. Keep us all up to date on this project!


Jeff





> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Message: 15
> > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:51:27 -0700
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Tom,
I came in on this thread late and haven't quite read through the whole 
thing. May I recommend visiting the National Electric Drag Racing 
Associations forum for some of these performance questions as well. 
There are several folks there that could lend a wealth of information 
for your performance conversion and answer many of the questions you 
have been posing.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nedra/

Also feel free to peruse our site http://www.nedra.com to see some of 
the fastest electric drag racers on the planet.

Mike

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mike..thanks.. I've gotten a couple of pointers to NEDRA and other that 
race in it. I'm following those paths.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Hi Tom,
> I came in on this thread late and haven't quite read through the whole
> thing. May I recommend visiting the National Electric Drag Racing
> Associations forum for some of these performance questions as well.
> There are several folks there that could lend a wealth of information
> for your performance conversion and answer many of the questions you
> have been posing.
>
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nedra/
>
> Also feel free to peruse our site http://www.nedra.com to see some of
> the fastest electric drag racers on the planet.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have an MES system and everything is programmable so I would think the 
ACP system is too. I can set the max torque and the ramp up time from I 
think .1 sec to 10 seconds.

Gary Krysztopik
Owner - www.ZWheelz.com
Vice President - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/ 
San Antonio, TX





> Tom wrote:
> > Thanks
> >
> > The real
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom wrote:
> 
> > dashboard. By limiting the rate of change of the power applied and
> > frequency also in the case of an AC motor , why isn't this possible and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Excellent. It seemed the obvious way to protect the drive train.

thanks

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeffrey Jenkins" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?




> > Tom wrote:
> >
> >> dashboard. By limiting the rate of change of the power applied and
> >> frequency also in the case of an AC motor , why isn't this possible and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gary" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>I have an MES system and everything is programmable so I would think the
> ACP system is too. I can set the max torque and the ramp up time from I
> think .1 sec to 10 seconds.
>
> Gary Krysztopik
> Owner - www.ZWheelz.com
> Vice President - www.aceaa.org
> blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
>


> > Tom wrote:
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> The real
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Me too.

Has anyone out there seen a comprehensive guide to the main component 
selection criteria and pricing.

It appears the motor, controller and battery market are all changing an if I 
can find one, I'm thinking of gathering together the specs and research how 
they effect an EV.

For example how does one compare ThunderSky batteries ( very low cost) 
versus A123 batteries ( more expensive but gaining reputation?)

Controllers

Zilla http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=42

Azure http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml

Evisol http://www.evisol.com/inverter-2.html




Motors AC versus DC

DC

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=31

AC
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/motor.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/ACmotor.html
http://www.rasertech.com/category/motors-and-drives/motors
Azure http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml

Batteries
Thundersky http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
A123 http://www.a123systems.com/~a123/a123/products
Sky Energy http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
Valence 
https://na4.salesforce.com/sfc/play/index.jsp?oid=00D6000000076DF&d=05D600000004CKp

It sure would be nice to tabulate all the specs prices, suppliers and what 
impact the spec will have.

I just mentioned a few being new... people have sent me many others.. Its a 
real maze.

Anybody seen anything like this?

Tom



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jwdsail" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Tom,
>
> I'm eager to see what comes of this!
>
> I've always loved the vette, have the pleasure to drive my father's C6
> from time to time on some winding roads.. Even went to Spring Mountain
> Motorsports for their Corvette driving school a few years back.
>
> If money is no object, there's a battery, controller, motor
> combination that will get you there. Finding a controller that will
> take that power (while being reliable) may be the biggest challenge.
>
> I'm still saving my $ intending to convert my 99 Cougar daily driver,
> and would want that conversion to have more of a performance/long
> range goal. An EV Vette, built with performance in mind, would be a
> dream car..
>
> Having driven C6s, I'd say the weight you're taking out (engine,
> trans, drive shaft, gas tank, etc) will be greater than the weight
> added by motor, batteries and controller... The main issue I see,
> regarding maintaining the feel of the C5, will be weight distribution,
> keeping it as close to 50/50 as possible.. You may need to seek out
> some lighter carbon fiber aftermarket body parts (and perhaps some
> lighter interior parts, seats perhaps) to give you some added
> flexibility in this...
>
> I think another issue you may find is resistance from other vette
> owners regarding this transplant operation... you may find issues with
> this build that require someone familiar with vette components/
> repairs, where they'll hear what you're doing, and shake their heads
> (at best), hang up, or berate you (at worst)... Of course, if you
> succeed in converting your vette into a performance EV, you may have
> some fun showing them all some great burnouts ;-)
>
> Good luck. Keep us all up to date on this project!
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> Message: 15
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:51:27 -0700
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi all just been lurking here wanted to add UQM in Colorado to the 
considerations for drivetrain seemed like interesting products for 
advanced locomotion

Rob


Robert Houllahan Film
www.Cinelab.com
Sent by IpodPhone

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

VG9tLCB5b3UgbWlnaHQgbGVhcm4gc29tZXRoaW5nIGZyb20gQm9iIFNpbXBzb24gb2YgQmFua3Ms
IE9yZWdvbi7CoCBIZQppcyB3b3JraW5nIG9uIGNvbXBsZXRpbmcgYSBoaWdoIGVuZCBjb252ZXJz
aW9uIG9mIGEgQk1XLsKgIFlvdSBjYW4gZmluZApoaXMgd2ViIHBhZ2UgYXQ6wqAgaHR0cDovL3d3
dy5ldmRyaXZlLmNvbS8KLS1waGlsCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f
X19fX19fX19fX19fXwpHZW5lcmFsIEVWREwgc3VwcG9ydDogaHR0cDovL2V2ZGwub3JnL2hlbHAv
ClVzYWdlIGd1aWRlbGluZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly9ldmRsLm9yZy9oZWxwL2luZGV4Lmh0bWwjY29udgpB
cmNoaXZlczogaHR0cDovL2V2ZGwub3JnL2FyY2hpdmUvClN1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiBvcHRpb25zOiBo
dHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc2pzdS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

MetricMind has had some bad dealings with Evisol:
http://www.metricmind.com/audi/evisol.htm

I'm using his MES-DEA 600 controller for a Porsche Boxster conversion.
We're trying to get equivalent-or-better performance, but since we've
chosen a 100 mi range, our weight has gone up by 300 lbs, so we'll see
what I can eek out of the system. Once it's sorted out and we have a
couple of tests under our belt, I'll post to the list with an updated
webpage.

The largest headache I'm dealing with right now is getting the rest of
the car to work without the Boxster ECM (the spoiler, windows, stability
systems, etc).

-Thor Johnson
www.thormacev.com



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 12:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

Me too.

Has anyone out there seen a comprehensive guide to the main component 
selection criteria and pricing.

It appears the motor, controller and battery market are all changing an
if I 
can find one, I'm thinking of gathering together the specs and research
how 
they effect an EV.

For example how does one compare ThunderSky batteries ( very low cost) 
versus A123 batteries ( more expensive but gaining reputation?)

Controllers

Zilla http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=42

Azure http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml

Evisol http://www.evisol.com/inverter-2.html




Motors AC versus DC

DC

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=31

AC
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction
.php
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/motor.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/ACmotor.html
http://www.rasertech.com/category/motors-and-drives/motors
Azure http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml

Batteries
Thundersky http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
A123 http://www.a123systems.com/~a123/a123/products
Sky Energy http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
Valence 
https://na4.salesforce.com/sfc/play/index.jsp?oid=00D6000000076DF&d=05D6
00000004CKp

It sure would be nice to tabulate all the specs prices, suppliers and
what 
impact the spec will have.

I just mentioned a few being new... people have sent me many others..
Its a 
real maze.

Anybody seen anything like this?

Tom



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jwdsail" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Tom,
>
> I'm eager to see what comes of this!
>
> I've always loved the vette, have the pleasure to drive my father's C6
> from time to time on some winding roads.. Even went to Spring Mountain
> Motorsports for their Corvette driving school a few years back.
>
> If money is no object, there's a battery, controller, motor
> combination that will get you there. Finding a controller that will
> take that power (while being reliable) may be the biggest challenge.
>
> I'm still saving my $ intending to convert my 99 Cougar daily driver,
> and would want that conversion to have more of a performance/long
> range goal. An EV Vette, built with performance in mind, would be a
> dream car..
>
> Having driven C6s, I'd say the weight you're taking out (engine,
> trans, drive shaft, gas tank, etc) will be greater than the weight
> added by motor, batteries and controller... The main issue I see,
> regarding maintaining the feel of the C5, will be weight distribution,
> keeping it as close to 50/50 as possible.. You may need to seek out
> some lighter carbon fiber aftermarket body parts (and perhaps some
> lighter interior parts, seats perhaps) to give you some added
> flexibility in this...
>
> I think another issue you may find is resistance from other vette
> owners regarding this transplant operation... you may find issues with
> this build that require someone familiar with vette components/
> repairs, where they'll hear what you're doing, and shake their heads
> (at best), hang up, or berate you (at worst)... Of course, if you
> succeed in converting your vette into a performance EV, you may have
> some fun showing them all some great burnouts ;-)
>
> Good luck. Keep us all up to date on this project!
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>


> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> Message: 15
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:51:27 -0700
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Looks good!

thanks
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> Hi Tom,
> I came in on this thread late and haven't quite read through the whole 
> thing. May I recommend visiting the National Electric Drag Racing 
> Associations forum for some of these performance questions as well. 
> There are several folks there that could lend a wealth of information 
> for your performance conversion and answer many of the questions you 
> have been posing.
> 
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nedra/ 
> 
> Also feel free to peruse our site http://www.nedra.com to see some of 
> the fastest electric drag racers on the planet.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
>


> Matt Lacey wrote:
> >
> >> Most digital controllers (zilla, kelly, etc) do have programmable
> >> motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as a 
>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells"

Question?

There seems to be fairly consistent views that A123 batteries are excellent.

But batteries are the heaviest, largest and most expensive component in an EV

Their parameters control some critical aspects of an EV such:

Mileage per charge for a given weight, size or cost ( all can be independent)

Lifetime of the essential expensive component and rate of mileage decay due to wear out 

How the lifetime is effected by driver behavior current draw character -- dragster, occasional acceleration, around town, Freeway cruising) 

Rate of charge for a given weight, size, cost and KwHr ( all can be independent)

Raw acceleration if the maximum current is lower than the controller/motor maximums

Dominates cost of EV in current price range ( unless one converts a donor Ferrari)

Safety in collision of battery itself independent of the mechanical packaging

and more? Are there other critical ones in the list?

Ok if the A123 pack chosen for a very high performance application such as the 


So if the A123 batteries cost $15K for KwHr = $2.14 per KwHr and is about 200 lbs or 35lbs per WHr and delivers 360HP = 268KW

or the 9.KwHr @ 374V listed on the site http://www.killacycle.com/about/ = $1.65 per KwHr and 45.5lbs per KWHr

That puts A123 batteries in the $1.65 per KWHr

but 

The LiFePO4 TSLFP200 listed on http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp are 200AH * 3.7V ( I took the liberty to use 3.7 versus 4.25) = 740 WHrs

12 TSLFP200 batteries would produce 12 * 200AH * 3.7V = 8.88KWhrs or similar but would cost $220 * 12 = $2640 * 1.1 for shipping = $2904

That puts Thunder Sky batteries in the $.327 per KWHr

If the A123 batteries used by KillaCycle really cost $15,000 or $15000 / $2904 = 5 times as expensive???? than the Thunder Sky LiFePO4 batteries

Ok now the question:

Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?

The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by their records and performance choose the A123?

Is it because A123 gave them the batteries as sponsors so they didn't care and got the best for free?

A battery made in China certainly has warranty and reliability concerns almost impossible to verify. So its a gamble. But EV Components is a good US supplier who would be impacted if the Thunder Sky product were terrible. It sounds from a few people that yes there is risk, some people got burned a few years back but lately the performance has been ok but the China risk will never go away ( in our lifetime) but if they work, 5 times better price is enormous given the battery is the killer or dominant cost item in an EV.Something is wrong with the picture when the DOE is giving funding, the market says OK with a successful IPO and A123 has good Chemistry and partners lining up. What is wrong with the picture?? Does A123 sell its batteries to a major OEM for prices similar to ThunderSky but we don't see it at the retail level? While Thunder Sky needs to price for retail because big OEMs require so much due diligence and factory quality control.

For a 50KWHr battery system , the cost difference would be $16K for ThunderSky or $82K for the A123 ???

Even if the ThunderSky had life issues, I could buy them 5 times during one A123 lifetime.

This battery thing is giving me constipation trying to understand the market, chemistries, pricing, performance parameters and this A123 versus ThunderSky Best/Worst comparison of cost.

Are there specs of the Thunder Sky that make them so unusable, its a moot point? Or is it an application specific difference in specs? 

So as a real world reference of a commercial EV, I drove and considering buying that is well documented, I decide to look at their wild "build it yourself" approach.

The Tesla has a battery made from 69 standard 18650 Lithium Ion chemistry batteries in parallel. Assuming they each have 2AHrs @ 3.7V = 69*2*3.7= 511WHrs or 138 AMPHrs per unit. With 11 of these in a second serial level block = 40.7Vand 9 of these blocks connected in series = 9 * 40.7 = 366.3V nominal ( close to Tesla's 375V claim) so 366.3*138AHrs = 50.5KWHrs.So the actual AMP Hours per 18650 battery is just over at 2.05AMPHrs per battery cell and their cell voltage nominal is actually 3.79 working backward from 53KWhrs. They claim the replacement cost at $36K retail which is $680 per WHr. That is still twice the ThunderSky

The Tesla battery pack is built from 6831 standard 18650 Lithium Ion chemistry batteries and at $36 per 6831, that's just over $5 per battery. Retail is $10-$11 per 18650 depending on manufacturer and specs. Tesla probably puts a great deal of labor plus the packaging cost into an entire battery pack.

I just don't get it how ThunderSky can sell the batteries for 1/5 A123 and why everyone except those sponsored aren't using them. 

What am I missing?

Tom






If the 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> In a message dated 10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
> [email protected] writes: 
>> Subj: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing? 
>> Date:10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[email protected]
>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>> To:[email protected]
>> Received from Internet: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you have the money, you don't have to make compromises. The Killacycle 
>> A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as a 
>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells, 
>> plus add BMS and packaging cost. 3 of these packs would give you ~1000 hp, at 
>> only about 600 lbs! Range? Maybe 70 miles? Maybe alot more if driven 
>> gently?
>> 
>> Two 11 inch motors and 2 Zilla controllers would weigh about 500 lbs. I'd 
>> guess you could get around 800 lbs out of the car. So you are around 400 to 
>> 500 lbs heavier for an outrageously fast car.
>> 
>> If you want merely Tesla fast, go with ~600 lbs of A123 batteries (a mere 
>> 700+ hp possible, but you'd throttle that down to save the motor), a single 
>> 11 inch or 13 inch motor, and keep the tranny. Now you'd likely be lighter 
>> than the car was to start!
>> 
>> You should talk to http://www.ssinc.us/ . The real racers are on the NEDRA 
>> Yahoo group, and would be a great resource for your questions: 
>> http://www.nedra.com/ .
>> 
> The quickest Street Legal Nedra Vech/TRUCK ran 11.08 at over 120mph.The 
> drivetrain may be for sale. Dennis Building an even more powerful 
> drivetrain!
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> 
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Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom wrote:
> > What am I missing?
> 
> Power density. TS is a great value on energy density, but you will not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?
> >
> > The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by their records and performance choose the A123?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>12 TSLFP200 batteries would produce 12 * 200AH * 3.7V = 8.88KWhrs or
similar but would cost $220 * 12 = $2640 * 
>1.1 for shipping = $2904

It has to be stressed that the nominal voltage of LiFePO4 is 3.2v/3.3v
Less depending on rate of discharge.

A 3.7v cell is a Lithium Cobalt cell.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tom
Sent: Saturday, 10 October 2009 8:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?

"A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as a 
>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells"

Question?

There seems to be fairly consistent views that A123 batteries are excellent.

But batteries are the heaviest, largest and most expensive component in an
EV

Their parameters control some critical aspects of an EV such:

Mileage per charge for a given weight, size or cost ( all can be
independent)

Lifetime of the essential expensive component and rate of mileage decay due
to wear out 

How the lifetime is effected by driver behavior current draw character --
dragster, occasional acceleration, around town, Freeway cruising) 

Rate of charge for a given weight, size, cost and KwHr ( all can be
independent)

Raw acceleration if the maximum current is lower than the controller/motor
maximums

Dominates cost of EV in current price range ( unless one converts a donor
Ferrari)

Safety in collision of battery itself independent of the mechanical
packaging

and more? Are there other critical ones in the list?

Ok if the A123 pack chosen for a very high performance application such as
the 


So if the A123 batteries cost $15K for KwHr = $2.14 per KwHr and is about
200 lbs or 35lbs per WHr and delivers 360HP = 268KW

or the 9.KwHr @ 374V listed on the site http://www.killacycle.com/about/ =
$1.65 per KwHr and 45.5lbs per KWHr

That puts A123 batteries in the $1.65 per KWHr

but 

The LiFePO4 TSLFP200 listed on http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
are 200AH * 3.7V ( I took the liberty to use 3.7 versus 4.25) = 740 WHrs

12 TSLFP200 batteries would produce 12 * 200AH * 3.7V = 8.88KWhrs or similar
but would cost $220 * 12 = $2640 * 1.1 for shipping = $2904

That puts Thunder Sky batteries in the $.327 per KWHr

If the A123 batteries used by KillaCycle really cost $15,000 or $15000 /
$2904 = 5 times as expensive???? than the Thunder Sky LiFePO4 batteries

Ok now the question:

Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?

The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by their
records and performance choose the A123?

Is it because A123 gave them the batteries as sponsors so they didn't care
and got the best for free?

A battery made in China certainly has warranty and reliability concerns
almost impossible to verify. So its a gamble. But EV Components is a good US
supplier who would be impacted if the Thunder Sky product were terrible. It
sounds from a few people that yes there is risk, some people got burned a
few years back but lately the performance has been ok but the China risk
will never go away ( in our lifetime) but if they work, 5 times better price
is enormous given the battery is the killer or dominant cost item in an
EV.Something is wrong with the picture when the DOE is giving funding, the
market says OK with a successful IPO and A123 has good Chemistry and
partners lining up. What is wrong with the picture?? Does A123 sell its
batteries to a major OEM for prices similar to ThunderSky but we don't see
it at the retail level? While Thunder Sky needs to price for retail because
big OEMs require so much due diligence and factory quality control.

For a 50KWHr battery system , the cost difference would be $16K for
ThunderSky or $82K for the A123 ???

Even if the ThunderSky had life issues, I could buy them 5 times during one
A123 lifetime.

This battery thing is giving me constipation trying to understand the
market, chemistries, pricing, performance parameters and this A123 versus
ThunderSky Best/Worst comparison of cost.

Are there specs of the Thunder Sky that make them so unusable, its a moot
point? Or is it an application specific difference in specs? 

So as a real world reference of a commercial EV, I drove and considering
buying that is well documented, I decide to look at their wild "build it
yourself" approach.

The Tesla has a battery made from 69 standard 18650 Lithium Ion chemistry
batteries in parallel. Assuming they each have 2AHrs @ 3.7V = 69*2*3.7=
511WHrs or 138 AMPHrs per unit. With 11 of these in a second serial level
block = 40.7Vand 9 of these blocks connected in series = 9 * 40.7 = 366.3V
nominal ( close to Tesla's 375V claim) so 366.3*138AHrs = 50.5KWHrs.So the
actual AMP Hours per 18650 battery is just over at 2.05AMPHrs per battery
cell and their cell voltage nominal is actually 3.79 working backward from
53KWhrs. They claim the replacement cost at $36K retail which is $680 per
WHr. That is still twice the ThunderSky

The Tesla battery pack is built from 6831 standard 18650 Lithium Ion
chemistry batteries and at $36 per 6831, that's just over $5 per battery.
Retail is $10-$11 per 18650 depending on manufacturer and specs. Tesla
probably puts a great deal of labor plus the packaging cost into an entire
battery pack.

I just don't get it how ThunderSky can sell the batteries for 1/5 A123 and
why everyone except those sponsored aren't using them. 

What am I missing?

Tom






If the 


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> In a message dated 10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
> [email protected] writes: 
>> Subj: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing? 
>> Date:10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[email protected]
>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>> To:[email protected]
>> Received from Internet: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you have the money, you don't have to make compromises. The Killacycle

>> A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as
a 
>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells, 
>> plus add BMS and packaging cost. 3 of these packs would give you ~1000
hp, at 
>> only about 600 lbs! Range? Maybe 70 miles? Maybe alot more if driven 
>> gently?
>> 
>> Two 11 inch motors and 2 Zilla controllers would weigh about 500 lbs. I'd

>> guess you could get around 800 lbs out of the car. So you are around 400
to 
>> 500 lbs heavier for an outrageously fast car.
>> 
>> If you want merely Tesla fast, go with ~600 lbs of A123 batteries (a mere

>> 700+ hp possible, but you'd throttle that down to save the motor), a
single 
>> 11 inch or 13 inch motor, and keep the tranny. Now you'd likely be
lighter 
>> than the car was to start!
>> 
>> You should talk to http://www.ssinc.us/ . The real racers are on the
NEDRA 
>> Yahoo group, and would be a great resource for your questions: 
>> http://www.nedra.com/ .
>> 
> The quickest Street Legal Nedra Vech/TRUCK ran 11.08 at over 120mph.The 
> drivetrain may be for sale. Dennis Building an even more powerful 
> drivetrain!
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL:
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hment.html 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok... But that only makes the cost 12% higher while my point was FIVE TIMEs. 
I'm still wondering why the large difference?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Lacey" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


> >12 TSLFP200 batteries would produce 12 * 200AH * 3.7V = 8.88KWhrs or
> similar but would cost $220 * 12 = $2640 *
>>1.1 for shipping = $2904
>
> It has to be stressed that the nominal voltage of LiFePO4 is 3.2v/3.3v
> Less depending on rate of discharge.
>
> A 3.7v cell is a Lithium Cobalt cell.
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of Tom
> Sent: Saturday, 10 October 2009 8:08 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
> "A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as 
> a
>>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells"
>
> Question?
>
> There seems to be fairly consistent views that A123 batteries are 
> excellent.
>
> But batteries are the heaviest, largest and most expensive component in an
> EV
>
> Their parameters control some critical aspects of an EV such:
>
> Mileage per charge for a given weight, size or cost ( all can be
> independent)
>
> Lifetime of the essential expensive component and rate of mileage decay 
> due
> to wear out
>
> How the lifetime is effected by driver behavior current draw character --
> dragster, occasional acceleration, around town, Freeway cruising)
>
> Rate of charge for a given weight, size, cost and KwHr ( all can be
> independent)
>
> Raw acceleration if the maximum current is lower than the controller/motor
> maximums
>
> Dominates cost of EV in current price range ( unless one converts a donor
> Ferrari)
>
> Safety in collision of battery itself independent of the mechanical
> packaging
>
> and more? Are there other critical ones in the list?
>
> Ok if the A123 pack chosen for a very high performance application such as
> the
>
>
> So if the A123 batteries cost $15K for KwHr = $2.14 per KwHr and is about
> 200 lbs or 35lbs per WHr and delivers 360HP = 268KW
>
> or the 9.KwHr @ 374V listed on the site http://www.killacycle.com/about/ =
> $1.65 per KwHr and 45.5lbs per KWHr
>
> That puts A123 batteries in the $1.65 per KWHr
>
> but
>
> The LiFePO4 TSLFP200 listed on 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp
> are 200AH * 3.7V ( I took the liberty to use 3.7 versus 4.25) = 740 WHrs
>
> 12 TSLFP200 batteries would produce 12 * 200AH * 3.7V = 8.88KWhrs or 
> similar
> but would cost $220 * 12 = $2640 * 1.1 for shipping = $2904
>
> That puts Thunder Sky batteries in the $.327 per KWHr
>
> If the A123 batteries used by KillaCycle really cost $15,000 or $15000 /
> $2904 = 5 times as expensive???? than the Thunder Sky LiFePO4 batteries
>
> Ok now the question:
>
> Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?
>
> The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by 
> their
> records and performance choose the A123?
>
> Is it because A123 gave them the batteries as sponsors so they didn't care
> and got the best for free?
>
> A battery made in China certainly has warranty and reliability concerns
> almost impossible to verify. So its a gamble. But EV Components is a good 
> US
> supplier who would be impacted if the Thunder Sky product were terrible. 
> It
> sounds from a few people that yes there is risk, some people got burned a
> few years back but lately the performance has been ok but the China risk
> will never go away ( in our lifetime) but if they work, 5 times better 
> price
> is enormous given the battery is the killer or dominant cost item in an
> EV.Something is wrong with the picture when the DOE is giving funding, the
> market says OK with a successful IPO and A123 has good Chemistry and
> partners lining up. What is wrong with the picture?? Does A123 sell its
> batteries to a major OEM for prices similar to ThunderSky but we don't see
> it at the retail level? While Thunder Sky needs to price for retail 
> because
> big OEMs require so much due diligence and factory quality control.
>
> For a 50KWHr battery system , the cost difference would be $16K for
> ThunderSky or $82K for the A123 ???
>
> Even if the ThunderSky had life issues, I could buy them 5 times during 
> one
> A123 lifetime.
>
> This battery thing is giving me constipation trying to understand the
> market, chemistries, pricing, performance parameters and this A123 versus
> ThunderSky Best/Worst comparison of cost.
>
> Are there specs of the Thunder Sky that make them so unusable, its a moot
> point? Or is it an application specific difference in specs?
>
> So as a real world reference of a commercial EV, I drove and considering
> buying that is well documented, I decide to look at their wild "build it
> yourself" approach.
>
> The Tesla has a battery made from 69 standard 18650 Lithium Ion chemistry
> batteries in parallel. Assuming they each have 2AHrs @ 3.7V = 69*2*3.7=
> 511WHrs or 138 AMPHrs per unit. With 11 of these in a second serial level
> block = 40.7Vand 9 of these blocks connected in series = 9 * 40.7 = 366.3V
> nominal ( close to Tesla's 375V claim) so 366.3*138AHrs = 50.5KWHrs.So the
> actual AMP Hours per 18650 battery is just over at 2.05AMPHrs per battery
> cell and their cell voltage nominal is actually 3.79 working backward from
> 53KWhrs. They claim the replacement cost at $36K retail which is $680 per
> WHr. That is still twice the ThunderSky
>
> The Tesla battery pack is built from 6831 standard 18650 Lithium Ion
> chemistry batteries and at $36 per 6831, that's just over $5 per battery.
> Retail is $10-$11 per 18650 depending on manufacturer and specs. Tesla
> probably puts a great deal of labor plus the packaging cost into an entire
> battery pack.
>
> I just don't get it how ThunderSky can sell the batteries for 1/5 A123 and
> why everyone except those sponsored aren't using them.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If the
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>
>
>> In a message dated 10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
>> [email protected] writes:
>>> Subj: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
>>> Date:10/7/2009 12:21:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>>> From:[email protected]
>>> Reply-to:[email protected]
>>> To:[email protected]
>>> Received from Internet:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have the money, you don't have to make compromises. The 
>>> Killacycle
>
>>> A123 pack weighs about 200 lbs, outputs about 360 hp, is about as big as
> a
>>> suitcase, has about 7 kwHr, and would cost about $15k for the raw cells,
>>> plus add BMS and packaging cost. 3 of these packs would give you ~1000
> hp, at
>>> only about 600 lbs! Range? Maybe 70 miles? Maybe alot more if driven
>>> gently?
>>>
>>> Two 11 inch motors and 2 Zilla controllers would weigh about 500 lbs. 
>>> I'd
>
>>> guess you could get around 800 lbs out of the car. So you are around 400
> to
>>> 500 lbs heavier for an outrageously fast car.
>>>
>>> If you want merely Tesla fast, go with ~600 lbs of A123 batteries (a 
>>> mere
>
>>> 700+ hp possible, but you'd throttle that down to save the motor), a
> single
>>> 11 inch or 13 inch motor, and keep the tranny. Now you'd likely be
> lighter
>>> than the car was to start!
>>>
>>> You should talk to http://www.ssinc.us/ . The real racers are on the
> NEDRA
>>> Yahoo group, and would be a great resource for your questions:
>>> http://www.nedra.com/ .
>>>
>> The quickest Street Legal Nedra Vech/TRUCK ran 11.08 at over 120mph.The
>> drivetrain may be for sale. Dennis Building an even more powerful
>> drivetrain!
>> -------------- next part --------------
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> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks I'll explore

Check out battery info ... lots of company, NREL and NASA information out 
there:


http://www.ostp.gov/galleries/PCAST/PCAST%20Sep.%202008%20Straubel%20slides.pdf

http://www.rockwoodspecialties.com/rock_english/media/ppt_files/02_04_09_Lithium_Supply_Santiago.ppt

http://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.gov/presentations/11_Dev_Batt_Packs_Space_Appl_DCarmen.pdf

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009-ALT-1/documents/2009-09-09_workshop/presentations/Green%20Vehicles.ppt

http://www.nrel.gov/technologytransfer/pdfs/igf21_porous_power.pdf





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?
> >>
> >> The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very interesting thread. I have not thorough read everything, so some of
this is already mentions.

There has been a lot of cost and specs tossed around on batteries so we have
a clear picture there. 

Other factors to consider are battery pack integrations, battery management,
and system reliability. 

In order to successfully integrate an A123 pack, one would need to be an
expert at battery tab welding (Bill Dube...). There are lots of labor
associated with building the pack. Then there is the battery management,
heat management, ensuring that all the electrical connection are good and
corrosion free - the kind of stuff that AC Propulsion and Tesla spend many
engineering years developing. I think it is a big development effort to
properly build a battery pack around the A123s. How does one deal with a
bad cell in the middle of the pack? If a cell is going to fail early, it
will likely be the one in the middle of the pack due to heat. 

The Headway batteries are a bit easier to build a pack around because they
have screw terminals and the format is bigger then A123 - so less cells are
needed. The BMS system may still be relatively complex.

Large format cells like Kokam or Thundersky - won't win a drag race against
the A123, but it is far easier to build a pack with it. Benefits with large
format cells are fewer electrical connection, easy to trouble shoot, easy to
build a pack, and easy to manage the batteries. Drawback is that it may
require more space for the pack. There are many BMS solutions available for
the TS batteries. Take a look at the number of builders in the album area
using TS cells and compare them to number of people using other Lithium
batteries. Most of the small formats are used by electric bike builders,
not electric cars.

As for motors, the ACIM and Brushless motors offer many advantages such as
high RPM (read no transmission, good torque throughout the RPM range,
higher efficiency, and no brushes to replace. The down side is high cost
and lack of availability. I have not had much experience with DC motors -
so my views are very lopsided. Love that torque on the DC motors though.

Thank you Tom for sharing the interesting documents you found. 

Minh




Tom-343 wrote:
> 
> Thanks I'll explore
> 
> Check out battery info ... lots of company, NREL and NASA information out 
> there:
> 
> 
> http://www.ostp.gov/galleries/PCAST/PCAST%20Sep.%202008%20Straubel%20slides.pdf
> 
> http://www.rockwoodspecialties.com/rock_english/media/ppt_files/02_04_09_Lithium_Supply_Santiago.ppt
> 
> http://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.gov/presentations/11_Dev_Batt_Packs_Space_Appl_DCarmen.pdf
> 
> http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009-ALT-1/documents/2009-09-09_workshop/presentations/Green%20Vehicles.ppt
> 
> http://www.nrel.gov/technologytransfer/pdfs/igf21_porous_power.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 7:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?
> 
> 
>>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?
> >>>
> >>> The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks.. I'm trying to understand what is possible today for my EV conversion but also curious about the future possibilities.

I calculated it again got 

110WHr/Kg for the TS-LFP200AHA and
108WHr/Kg for the A123 ANR26650 cell 

so their energy density is about the same

The Impulse and maximum discharge for the A123 is far better and thus its racing advantage as more energy can be discharged over a short period of time.

Since A123 and others are trying to put their effort toward the big OEMs, their potential pricing to those big OEMs is hard to find. Eventually it will trickle down to the EV Conversion market but the price won't be truly low until a big OEM sells lots of EVs which is the driver for huge volumes eventually. Since the EV market stuttered but has now moving forward, it could be 5 years before EV volume has driven manufacturing volumes such that EV conversion people can get really low prices. It will happen but we are really early on supply/demand driven price curve. Its a bummer.

Have any of the racing people used Ultracaps with the currently available lower price batteries to compensate for the lousy impulse current? I don't know the Ultracapacitor pricing but the reason they are being pursued is to allow the capacitors to provide the initial acceleration current to help optimize the battery acceleration, cost and lifetime. Any thoughts here?. 

Tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>


> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Is my arithmetic and the $15K for the KillaCycle correct?
> >>
> >> The why would the KillaCycle people who are experts as is evidenced by their records and performance choose the A123?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Since A123 and others are trying to put their effort toward the big OEMs, their potential pricing to those big OEMs is hard to find. Eventually it will trickle down to the EV Conversion market but the price won't be truly low until a big OEM sells lots of EVs which is the driver for huge volumes eventually. Since the EV market stuttered but has now moving forward, it could be 5 years before EV volume has driven manufacturing volumes such that EV conversion people can get really low prices. It will happen but we are really early on supply/demand driven price curve. Its a bummer.
> 
> I agree. Talk to James Morrison of EV Components about getting A123 at
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is how GaryGranke took A LOT of De Walt DC9360 batteries and turned 
them into a battery pack for his Insight
http://ev.whitecape.org/insight/A123/
And here is a link to how he converted his Insight 
http://ev.whitecape.org/insight/

Rush

Tucson AZ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "minhd" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High performance EV conversion and timing?


>
> The most common A123 batteries used on E-scooter, E-bikes, and a few drag
> vehicles are the 26650. They are obtained from the Dewalt tool batteries.
> Many users do not even remove the connection tabs on the Dewalt pack 
> because
> they do not have the appropriate welder to reattached the connection tab 
> to
> the battery.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > There's another way to get A123 cells: Buy DeWalt 36v batteries for
> > their portable tools. Each one has 10 A123 cells plus a battery
> ...


----------

