# jEEp



## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

Hello, all! I've been lurking for quite a while. I have some questions, finally.

I'd like to convert a Jeep TJ ('97 to '06) as an EV. I've been tinkering with some numbers, but I'd like a little advice (or a lot, up to you guys, really ) I want to build this as a fairly performance oriented machine, not just an efficient commuter. The idea of competing in some short off-road races, or crawling events is exciting. It'll have some fairly beefy 35" tires (around 70lbs a piece) on the floor, so that's something to keep in mind. Differential ratio will be around 4.11.

I'd like to use an AC motor. If I can get away from a transmission, that'd be nice. I'll be keeping the transfer case though - 2H, 4H, 4L.

The AC-180 system from AC Propulsion looks scrumptious, but I can't get a hold of anyone over there to save my life. 
The Seimens 1PV5135-4WS28 looks quite nice as well.
The EVE M3-AC motor is nice. The liquid cooling is a plus. Not sure what size would work, as their site confused me.

Stock Jeep engine:

around 150hp (112 for one, 190 for another) or 110kW of power
around 210ft-lb of torque

I'd like to match those numbers or exceed them, and the few I laid out seem to foot the bill. Price, availability, and efficiency would play a role in the decision.

So for efficiency, I'm guessing 500 Wh/mile. Will the big tires bump that number up? I'm thinking they would help with regenerative braking, at least, since they'll want to keep their momentum. For a required voltage, I'm thinking around 144... probably end up closer to 160. For range, I'd like to get at least 100 miles. So using those numbers, I end up with a required Ah of around 310Ah. Does that sound right?

I found another jeep build that was using 180Ah with an 80 mile range. Because of that, and the size of the batteries, I like the idea of SinoPoly 200Ah.

Thoughts?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

1) Price, you're not going to like it with AC, and I didn't know non-businesses could get the AC-180. You'll also need an inverter.

You need to make sure these motors are available for purchase by an individual.

2) your "Ah" is the rating of the individual cell, not the battery pack. The battery pack is rating in kwh (16kwh, 24kwh, etc.).

3)Regen: You'll need DC Sepex, PMDC, PMAC, or AC induction. Brushed DC does not have regen capable controllers at the moment.

May not be worth the cost.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My first two cars were DC. Frankly, I dont see a problem with DC. It fits your conversion perfectly except for your two provisos.

1-AC-for regen ....IMHO-Regen is a nice bonus but not a decision factor. (10%)

2-No transmission- Most people would say they want to lose the transmission too. Realistically It is difficult with vehicles heavier than 3000LBS. The start out current demand is LARGE and the required RPM range is WIDE.

#1 can be overcome with a BIG controller, BIG battery pack, BIG motor torque and water cooling. All expensive.....

#2 can also be overcome using a 2 pole/large diameter motor in DC or an AC motor both are expensive.

Of coarse a lighter vehicle is a blessing too. It is much cheaper than the other things.

My guess is to keep the transmission, lighten the vehicle as much as you can, Spend your money on the largest Pack you can afford.

I know it is not what you wanted to hear, Sorry.

Miz


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2012)

If you want to be yanking and pulling you might just consider an 11" or 13 DC motor as well. Range will be a large kWh pack and a light foot. Your tires would be a bit to be desired. Maybe have a couple sets so you can change out when you go play vs just driving all the time to and fro. Keep the transmission and utilize the gearing for play. The fat motors can give you plenty of torque. You might consider 156 or 192 volts as well or higher for that matter and use one of killer controllers available to belt out the power as needed. The Shiva, Warp Drive Industrial and the Zilla2K come to mind. 

Cost, just toss it out the window. Don't even go there with what you want to do. If you pick all the items in your list it will be expensive. Fun but expensive. 

If you just want a nice all around cruiser then that is another matter all together. A good 9" Warp motor, Soliton1 38.4kWh sized pack of Synopoly 200AH cells would do you good. That would be 192 volt system comprising of 60 Synopoly 200AH cells. Keep the tranny and get some good LRR street tires for daily use and some fat boys for fun. But for some serious pulling you will want a fatter motor and controller.


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

K... Thanks for the input so far! I'm still a few months away from pulling the trigger on this, so nothing is set in stone, obviously. So DC, huh? I spent a few years in the R/C world, and went from nitro powered 1/10 scale trucks to electric. Their motors were DC, as well, and I had no problem with that notion. That being said, I don't think you'd be able to fit an inverter onto those things, lol. So, in the R/C world, I got turned off by the thought of brushed motors. Big build up for this question, but here it is... Are there brushless DC motors in the EV world? The warps are brushed, as far as I can tell. Any links you guys could share on that topic? SepEx (Separately Excited) motors are brushed too, it seems...

_Side note, I love forums. I like searching for information. I'm all about searching a forum, but when I search for AC DC, or something of the sort, and get a message that my search terms are too small, that's just annoying. So if you could point me in the direction of other threads covering the topics of the different DC motors available, that'd be great. I guess I could search 'Direct Current'... [/rant]_

So for the battery pack. 60 will do. If I can fit 50, I'm sure I can find room for 10 more. The SinoPoly 200Ah packs are good though, huh? I figured they were a good balance of weight to 'power'. Overall voltage is going to decide my HP (or overall speed to that extent), correct? In which case 192 will be more than sufficient, it seems. The higher voltage will take a bit of the load off the batteries as well. Fun, fun. I like it.

For the tranny. How would an automatic 3 spd do? Or is manual the way to go here, if I have to have one? So *if* I can get my paws on an AC-180 (I didn't realize they didn't supply those to the public. Bastards), then I can do away with the tranny? This due to the max RPM, obviously. So for a motor that tops out around 5-6k, i'm going to want to keep it. Fair enough.

So at this point... I'd appreciate some more info on motors. Brushless DC? Available AC motors? I do want BIG motor torque here, seeing as it's a Jeep, and I'd like it to be competitive. Speaking of torque. I assume that torqier motors work by drawing more current, right? So if I mash on the pedal, the battery pack will have a good load put on it, but if I'm taking it easy, would a high torque motor affect range?

I have much to learn... I know enough to get myself in trouble, here. Hopefully these are educated questions...


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

Also... BLDC, and PMAC, seem the same, no? switching the power directly from + to -, as opposed to a smoother sine wave.

*Also...* PMDC = BLDC??


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Mallanaga said:


> Also... BLDC, and PMAC, seem the same, no? switching the power directly from + to -, as opposed to a smoother sine wave.
> 
> *Also...* PMDC = BLDC??


Yes. At least until that hitachi announcement.


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

Google failed me... which Hitachi announcement? I got something about them releasing brushless motors in their power tools??


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

There are two distinct shapes in magnetizing permanent magnet motors

Trapezoidal and sinusoidal. first has higher power per size, but second allows higher efficiency. The required inverter / controller output is different. 

About the EVE M3 motors, I can recommend from own experience the M3-AC60/4-L


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> There are two distinct shapes in magnetizing permanent magnet motors
> 
> Trapezoidal and sinusoidal. first has higher power per size, but second allows higher efficiency. The required inverter / controller output is different.
> 
> About the EVE M3 motors, I can recommend from own experience the M3-AC60/4-L


This is pleasing to hear! EVE's site shows the 50. Can I get a link to the stats of the 60? Or could you post some up? How about the 90 (just for comparison)?

So while doing some reading... PMDC uses the trapezoidal 'wave', and the PMAC use the sinusoidal wave. Both are brushless. As stated prior, I like brushless. The EVE is induction. I'm OK with that as well, obviously. Torque really falls off after 2000 RPM. That would warrant the use of a transmission, still...


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

The frame is identical for the 40,50 and 60. The difference is in the rotor and depending on current limit the wire for the stator. (most of the technology is in the rotor) 

Induction motors... Torque does not fall off without a reason. 
The back emf from the motor is higher than the battery voltage, 

The rate it decays depends on the motor-size (how much it is overloaded above nominal rating) and the brains of the inverter.

A 'smart' / modern inverter can give you a constant power area after the back emf from the motor rises above the battery voltage. (To overcome the back emf being too high the controller reduced the magnetising current in the rotor) In the EVE publicated specs the input/shaft output? power drops at a certain RPM speed, but this is not necessary at all. As an example 100kw peak at 3500rpm, could still be 80kw at 8000rpm. Have a look at the specs from the fast electric roadsters with induction motors 


90 is (entirely?) different, also lower rev limit..


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification! Where can I get one, and how much? 

For controllers... Curtis only goes up to 96v... Am I missing something?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Well, the EVE M3 AC motors are from Italy... It think it needs to be shipped to get it in one of the US of A.


I have no experience with the Curtisn controllers, nor did I ever considerer them.

Not an opinion: I'm afraid you'll need a more volts for the EVE motor's ... 300-400V and a controller that can handle that.


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

So do I bounce down to the 100Ah cells, put 120 of them in the ride? This reminds me of the High voltage Low amp setups in the brushless rigs in R/C. People were getting pretty good 'range' out of them. Same principle here...

Upping the voltage significantly lessens the amperage draw...

efficiency of ~500 Wh/mile (major guess, here. might even be lo
desired range of ~100 miles
120 batteries @ 3.2V is ~384V
my necessary Ah goes to 50k/384 = 130.2Ah

We're getting somewhere. High voltage controller now?? Let's work this out  The 'help page' shows a list of controllers - 4/40 are AC, and they're all Curtis... pardon my extrapolation, haha.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Mallanaga said:


> So do I bounce down to the 100Ah cells, put 120 of them in the ride? This reminds me of the High voltage Low amp setups in the brushless rigs in R/C. People were getting pretty good 'range' out of them. Same principle here...
> 
> Upping the voltage significantly lessens the amperage draw...
> 
> ...


100 mi @ 500 wh/mi ==50kwh battery pack (and that's at 100% discharge). Not going to happen in your budget.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Not an expert at off roading, but it seems like regen would be nice for getting down steep hills.


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

somanywelps said:


> Not going to happen in your budget.


First of all... I never mentioned a budget. Secondly, the math shows about 38kWh. Hypothetically, that would be around 75 miles. That's a good start, I'd say 



DavidDymaxion said:


> Not an expert at off roading, but it seems like regen would be nice for getting down steep hills.


It would be amazing, actually. Not using the brakes is important when 'crawling' down banks. With the AC-180, you can even change the amount of engine braking.

So, the help file for the forum only shows Curtis AC controllers. Where should I look for higher voltage AC controllers? It's amazing that there aren't more complete systems available for us consumers. This is all ad hoc, and quite annoying. This forum has been great in consolidating information, but still, it's rather ridiculous. 

Also, why is AC Propulsion being so stingy with their technology?? I mean... seriously. Anyone have the hook up with them?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Mallanaga said:


> First of all... I never mentioned a budget. Secondly, the math shows about 38kWh. Hypothetically, that would be around 75 miles. That's a good start, I'd say


(That's at 100% discharge, you want to stop discharging at 80%. Bump that back up to ~46 kwh.)

That much CALB is about $15k. It's also nearly 1200lbs. iirc.

By the time you're done getting enough power, you'd be better off with a Tesla model S or something...

(unless you're offroading continuously or something. Also stalling DC motors is VERY bad.)


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## Mallanaga (Jan 22, 2009)

somanywelps said:


> Petroleum wins... It has more power, for less money and is better for your application. Move on.


That's what I just heard, from you, mister.

I'm figuring the batteries would be around 11k to 13k, as these LiFe seem to be around $1+ per Amp. The weight should only be around 828lbs. 80% DoD, I know, I know. I'd really like to see a 100 mile range on this beast. Hopefully my 500 Wh/mile guess is high...

So stalling a DC motor is bad, yup. I guess that means I stick with AC (which seems to have way more power per pound, anyway). Anything brushless, really.


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