# Is it still possible to find an EV1?



## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

After recently learning that GM's EV1`was the most aerodynamic car ever produced, my interest in them has spiked up. I know very little about them, other than they are of late 1990's vintage, and hearing something about GM desiring that as many of them as possible get crushed up. That makes me wonder if there was some sort of major safety issue with them? Or are they just trying to make them into high-dollar collector's items [with the execs buying hoards of them, obviously]?

Technically speaking, I know virtually nothing about them. But I was wondering, would it be feasible to consider owning and driving one of them if I replaced the original battery pack with a modern high-capacity LiFePO4 pack? 

Actually, the main question I have after hearing about GM's strong desire to have them "exterminated" (conjures up images of nazi death camps), are there any survivors left that can be found/purchased? If so, what are they going for? I'm figuring that on the supply/demand scale, the demand for such out-dated "relic" electric vehicles would similarily be very low.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Watch the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" for the whole story (or read the Wikipedia page).


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

There are a few dozen left, mostly in museums and Universities with signed agreements not to allow them on the road.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> There are a few dozen left, mostly in museums and Universities with signed agreements not to allow them on the road.


Zig has it correct although there was a rumor one went on eBay a few years ago for close to a $million. I've worked on 4 of the university owned EV1s and have seen the one in the Crawford Museum in Cleveland. All the existing EV1s had the batteries and brains removed. Other than that, they were completely in tact.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

A million??? Well, so much for THAT idea!

Looks like the still-intact ones have indeed become high priced collector's items. I'm sure that GM's top execs each have at least a few of them stashed away. Should make for a very nice retirement fund, I must say. I was figuring that the only thing "wrong" with them was the now-osolete battery technology of the 90's. But there must be something that I am missing. What is their motive for being so adamant about having signed agreements by current owners not to put them on the road? Is it something OTHER than a safety issue that might get them sued if somebody gets injured or killed? Is there even 1 out there that still has a current registration and is being driven? If there was, it seems pretty obvious that GM would not be very happy about it. The big question that I just can't seem to come up with a reasonable answer to on my own is WHY?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electron Power said:


> A million??? Well, so much for THAT idea!
> 
> Looks like the still-intact ones have indeed become high priced collector's items. I'm sure that GM's top execs each have at least a few of them stashed away. Should make for a very nice retirement fund, I must say. I was figuring that the only thing "wrong" with them was the now-osolete battery technology of the 90's. But there must be something that I am missing. What is their motive for being so adamant about having signed agreements by current owners not to put them on the road? Is it something OTHER than a safety issue that might get them sued if somebody gets injured or killed? Is there even 1 out there that still has a current registration and is being driven? If there was, it seems pretty obvious that GM would not be very happy about it. The big question that I just can't seem to come up with a reasonable answer to on my own is WHY?


Here's my take. California is a big market for GM. California Air Resources Board (CARB) convinces the State legislature to pass laws requiring any company selling new vehicles in CA to at minimum have X% of those vehicles be zero emission. I think it was like 5% by 2010 or something like that. This gives GM like about 10 years. GM hires 1000 engineers to develop the EV and hires 10,000 lawyers to attack the legislation.

The engineers are successful and GM introduces the EV1 in limited production but elects to keep tight control through lease only in restricted areas, mostly CA. It works well although is expensive to the lucky leasers. After a few years, the lawyers finally win out and the CA mandate is repealed. GM ceases EV1 production and brings in all leased vehicles and destroys them. GM enters into a profitable period of making large SUVs.

The EV1 was a technical achievement but was an unwanted PITA to GM. It was only a distraction and they just made it disappear as soon as they got the chance.

Watch the movies and read the web articles for the complete story and facts. Much of what I just said is my opinion and my be inaccurate


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> There are a few dozen left, mostly in museums and Universities with signed agreements not to allow them on the road.


There has to be some fine print clauses in that.

I know Pennsylvania State University had one at University Park in State College Pa ... They did occasionally drive it on the road ... usually just on the university roads ... but on rare occasions they have driven it on public roads as well , even off the university ... The professor I had said the limitations were because of Insurance , type of registration , and it being irreplaceable , not because of some secret contract with GM.

There were Grad Student classes that poked and prodded it ... from a variety of disciplines as a educational tool ... and as a test bed for other university projects... one such Grad Project example is when they swapped out the NiMH for a fuel cell PowerPoint Link

They were nice , and ahead of their time ... but , far from a holy grail kind of thing ... definitely better could be made today with an equal effort ... The CdA was very good ... even the Aerodynamic Gen1 Insight has a ~26% higher CdA ( but 1,000 lbs less weight ) ... Even Prototype Aerodynamic Focused Vehicles like the Aptera had ~5% higher CdA then the EV1 ... that says something about the very well designed shell for it's day.

- - - - - 

For the OP direction ... if you want a EV1 today ... for your own private use ... you are most likely heading into the replica type of product ... which can be done.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

IamIan said:


> The professor I had said the limitations were because of Insurance , type of registration , and it being irreplaceable , not because of some secret contract with GM.


That is contrary to what I was told by several of the Unis I worked with. It was not a secret contract, but had specific language prohibiting the licensing and on-public-road use of the donated EV1. The vehicles were for research and educational purposes and could be used only on test tracks and such. That's not to say we didn't drive them around campus a time or two


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> That is contrary to what I was told by several of the Unis I worked with. It was not a secret contract, but had specific language prohibiting the licensing and on-public-road use of the donated EV1. The vehicles were for research and educational purposes and could be used only on test tracks and such. That's not to say we didn't drive them around campus a time or two


All I can tell you is my own experience ... weather people were doing things they shouldn't have been ... or weather what the professor told us was actually correct or not ... I don't know.

But I also have not actually seen actual confirmation of the written agreement about them not being on public roads either ... I hear that same thing people say that about some of the EV1s that are still out there ... but it's just person 1 heard it from person 2 who heard it from person 3 ... etc.

So from my point of view ... both sides are hearsay... and I have no actual confirmation of what ... if any ... actual legal restrictions are in place... and even if they are in place for a EV1 in location A that doesn't mean the same things are in place for all the EV1s out there.

Even if it has wording like for educational purposes ... or test track ... etc ... those are not specifically prohibiting public roads as a test track ... the other question becomes ... what's the recourse ... if they do it , what does the agreement say happens ... if there is not punishment , then there is no teeth to the contract... and even if it is in the contract ... is it actually legally enforceable? ... etc.

The only first hand confirmations I can give directly from my own experience ... that it was driven on at least 2 occasions on public roads ... going from point A to point B ... I was told about others ... But I saw it myself twice.

They even say they drive it on campus daily on page 11 of the previously linked power point... those are public roads.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

I appreciate the responses, but I'm still having trouble understanding exactly what the underlying reason is that GM had such an intense attitude about getting rid of all of them, especially since since any warranties on them obviously would have expired many years ago. Why were they so obsessed about it AFTER the warranties expired? It is my personal opinion that the cars would have made EXCELLENT "project" vehicles, for tinkerers such as those who frequent the DIY EC forum!

At this point, there IS NO POINT in me "reading up" on any more info like has been suggested, because those who already HAVE done it do not seem to have the answer that I am seeking. Not to mention, that I have NO chance of ever getting my hands on one anyways. Since we are obviously on a dead-end street here, I see no other option but to make the case-closed call, on this thread.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Electron Power said:


> I appreciate the responses, but I'm still having trouble understanding exactly what the underlying reason is that GM had such an intense attitude about getting rid of all of them, especially since since any warranties on them obviously would have expired many years ago. Why were they so obsessed about it AFTER the warranties expired? It is my personal opinion that the cars would have made EXCELLENT "project" vehicles, for tinkerers such as those who frequent the DIY EC forum!


GM didn't care about that. But they did have obligation to support production vehicles left in the hands of the public after production ceased and even after warranty periods expired, which they wanted to avoid. That's exactly why it was lease only, no sales. They kept ownership and control. They knew what they were doing and did what they wanted. I suspect GM corporate felt the EV1 was a "business" mistake and wanted to make it disappear once and forever.


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## Electron Power (Jan 2, 2013)

Both of those points do make sense. I can understand them not wanting to deal with the hassle of making replacement parts available. But then, if they would have made that clear from the get-go, I'm sure there would still be many "parts donor" cars lying around in JYs & elsewhere, if they weren't so adamant about stamping practically every last one of them out!

As for the other point, I get the impression that they felt like the cars have given them a black-eye, or something. And they just wanted to forget that the whole ordeal ever even happened, in any and every way possible.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

major said:


> GM didn't care about that. But they did have obligation to support production vehicles left in the hands of the public after production ceased and even after warranty periods expired, which they wanted to avoid. That's exactly why it was lease only, no sales. They kept ownership and control. They knew what they were doing and did what they wanted. I suspect GM corporate felt the EV1 was a "business" mistake and wanted to make it disappear once and forever.


Not disagreeing with any of that in itself.

But my own personal preference , would have been if they had just priced the cars way out of the reasonable range ... charge $100,000 or $300,000 for them ... if some crazy person wanted to pony up the crazy high price ... than let them have their unique car.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

*”for years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa*.” (Charles Wilson CEO of GM in 1953.) I grew up hearing it as “what is good for general motors is good for the U.S.A. I tend to think the paraphrased rendition comes closer to the mindset of giant companies. 


major said:


> Here's my take. California is a big market for GM. California Air Resources Board (CARB) convinces the State legislature to pass laws requiring any company selling new vehicles in CA to at minimum have X% of those vehicles be zero emission. I think it was like 5% by 2010 or something like that. This gives GM like about 10 years. GM hires 1000 engineers to develop the EV and hires 10,000 lawyers to attack the legislation.
> 
> The engineers are successful and GM introduces the EV1 in limited production but elects to keep tight control through lease only in restricted areas, mostly CA. It works well although is expensive to the lucky leasers. After a few years, the lawyers finally win out and the CA mandate is repealed. GM ceases EV1 production and brings in all leased vehicles and destroys them. GM enters into a profitable period of making large SUVs.
> 
> ...


This is closer to why there are no EV1’s. GM didn’t want to build an electric car and I think the bigshots were surprised when the team in charge of building the EV1 came up with what they did. They were probably pissed off too because it would make it harder to discontinue. GM definitely did not have the U.S.A’s best interest in mind when they destroyed the EV1 the same way they did not have it's best interest in mind when they sold the battery patent to an oil company.


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## Nabla_Operator (Aug 5, 2011)

I would not mind building a kit car, based on a good copy of the original EV1 !
That would be the first kit car, devoted to electric propulsion. 

(some wealthy people would like to drive it with ICE, probably. As happened with the Fiskers)


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