# Planning Lifepo4 battery order, who wants in?



## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

well, Ill ask the big question first: what kind of money are you talking about? 15K?


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

david85 said:


> Its getting close to putting my money where my mouth is with all this talk of lithium batteries. Testing isn't quite done yet, but I wanted to get the word out early to give plenty of time if anyone else wants in.
> 
> I can't give an exact date yet, but its looking like we will place the order for the saturn conversion before the end of the year.
> 
> ...


David,

I'm very interested! I think I would be wanting 45 cells 3.2V with 160Ah (if available) for a pack with 23 KWh.

Could you remind us of the discharge C ratings (continuous and max burst) as well as weight per Wh?

Do they provide a suitable charger and BMS for an EV application? Quality and cost?

I'll be very interested to know a cost estimate per Wh. The timing works well for me as I won't need batteries before spring.

Your higher amperage testing of these batteries will let us know how suitable they will be (though the risk remains for long term reliability!). Thanks again for taking the lead on these batteries.

Rob


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Its getting close to putting my money where my mouth is with all this talk of lithium batteries. Testing isn't quite done yet, but I wanted to get the word out early to give plenty of time if anyone else wants in.
> 
> I can't give an exact date yet, but its looking like we will place the order for the saturn conversion before the end of the year.
> 
> ...


 
Need more information.

cylinder cells? good BMS included etc.


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## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

Within in the last two weeks I got quotes from both Thundersky and Hipower for $300 per 200 AH cell at quantity of 48, plus shipping. 

This price is too high. I have heard that bulk purchasers are getting cells at $.30/ Wh (or about $1/Ah) which would be about $200 per cell. This is only twice the price of lead, so that is encouraging. So look for this kind of pricing and I may consider buying in. For a street size conversion vehicle, this would be 48 cells at about $10K, but giving a range of more than 75 miles.

There are two significant concerns with upgrading from Lead to Li for a full size street vehicle (48 + cells)

1.) There are no available BMS. Without BMS high voltage cell protection on the charging cycle, you run the risk of cooking your cells. There are several people working on solutions (like me), and lots of one-off prototypes but no shrink wrapped solutions.

2.) There are no Lithium prismatic success stories (e.g. thundersky-type block cells). I have heard of serveral people saying that they are in the process of upgrading to Li, then just drop off the earth. What happened to all these attempts? As far as I know there are ZERO operating Li-prismatic street legal vehicles operating in southern California. I don't mind being an early adoptor, but I dont want to repeat mistakes.

Frustrated in CA
Mark.

http://evalbum.austinev.org/1352


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

chamilun said:


> well, Ill ask the big question first: what kind of money are you talking about? 15K?


The price for my battery will be close to $16000 including BMS and charger. They don't seem to have a problem with an order that small, so your order could be any number you want on top of that. It doesn't have to be 45 cells like mine.



RKM said:


> David,
> 
> I'm very interested! I think I would be wanting 45 cells 3.2V with 160Ah (if available) for a pack with 23 KWh.
> 
> ...


I can ask if they offer a 160AH cell (they should), my tests are for 200AH cells though. But The quality SHOULD be the same across the product range.

Constant C is 1C, and max C is 5C (for 15 seconds or less). For your battery, you would have 23.04 kw of power for cruising and 115.1 kw for acceleration (assuming 100% efficiency). 

WH/Kg calculates to 88.9 for my 200AH cells (before calculating for charger and BMS). Most of the LiFePo4 like this seem to be between 85 and 100wh/Kg. The older LiPo 3.7V soft cells can be up to 160 wh/kg from what I was able to find. Its been said that the older LiPo technology was good for up to 300 wh/kg in some more general info sources, but I never found a supplier that had anything like that in their product listings. Electrovaya (canadian) claims to have 400wh/kg, but they never returned my Emails.

They do provide a charger matched to the battery if requested. I can only comment on the charger they sent with my 12.8V sample battery which did seem to be of good quality, I had no problems with it. The price for the charger for the 144V battery came to $1503.60. The price for the 12.8V was $128.80.

The cost per WH for just the battery is ~$0.466/wh. BMS and charger are added on top of that. The price quote for my battery works out to $0.55/wh with everything included. Based on this you could now get an idea for what your battery would cost. I do not yet have a price for the freight though.

Yes, there is a risk for the long term, all I can say is that the older LiPo chemistry was good for up to 10 years and LiFePo4 is more stable so maybe it would last longer. But theres no way to be sure so take that into account if you decide to buy.

Higher C tests are comming next......

*All prices are in US$*

If we could get the price of oil to come back up, that would give the canadian dollar some more strength. Maybe we should all yell "supply shortage!!!!" really really loud at the same time. Thats usually all it took in the past to inflate the price, LOL


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Need more information.
> 
> cylinder cells? good BMS included etc.


The cells are prismatic, BMS and charger are matched to the battery if requested (recommended).

More info here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/200ah-lifepo4-battery-testing-thread-21887.html


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

hardym said:


> Within in the last two weeks I got quotes from both Thundersky and Hipower for $300 per 200 AH cell at quantity of 48, plus shipping.
> 
> This price is too high. I have heard that bulk purchasers are getting cells at $.30/ wh which would be about $1/Ah which would be about $200 per cell. This is only twice the price of lead, so that is encouraging. So look for this kind of pricing and I may consider buying in.
> 
> ...


 
I've heard a few more recent stories with the thundersky LFP series, but we are still talking less than 2 years old. You must have high voltage cut off in a specialized charger for lithium as the charge profiles are different between lithium and lead. My sample demonstrated a good ability to gently ballance the 4 cell pack, so I would expect they have such a charger and BMS for a larger battery.

I'm not sure if we can expect $0.30/wh, for this order. Do you know what volume order was required for that price?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

David,

your test system has BMS integrated into the charger, but for 45 cell order you list BMS and charger separately. Does that mean a different BMS will be used for your 45 cell order? Any details on that BMS?

My understanding is that BMS can be done 2 ways, small modules mounted on each cell which monitor for high voltage cutoff, in this case charger doesn't sense status of each battery, only entire pack voltage. In this scenario each module must pass charging current thru itself in order to keep the rest of the pack charging, which requires powerful components. The other type of BMS senses each cell and adjusts charging voltage per cell, which requires complex charger and lots of wires. So which one will you be getting for 45 cell battery? Or maybe I am completely off base....

BTW, I requested a quote from the EVPST which was mentioned in the other thread here. They have 120AH cells capable of 2C continuous and 4C pulse which is quite sufficient for my EV. Their price is $11610 for 45 cells, plus $2400 for BMS and charger, does not include freight.

Obviously this is yet another company with unproved product, but numbers look pretty good, although you are getting extra 80AH for almost same price.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I will ask about the BMS/charger....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The cells are prismatic, BMS and charger are matched to the battery if requested (recommended).
> 
> More info here:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/200ah-lifepo4-battery-testing-thread-21887.html


thanks for the info I actually forgot you were testing out this battery in that thread 

I'd really be interested in a 8kwh pack for my custom shell car coming up if the BMS is well designed (therein lies the problem for MOST lithium sets lifetime figures).

500 lb custom fiberglass car needs lithium IMO... let me know more about the BMS when you find out...

and your most recent 60 amp load test... i'd like to see if you can charge/discharge it at that amperage and see if DoD is at all measurable after say... 10 times (maybe 0.01v? I don't know)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> and your most recent 60 amp load test... i'd like to see if you can charge/discharge it at that amperage and see if DoD is at all measurable after say... 10 times (maybe 0.01v? I don't know)


Hmm, thats not going to be easy. I'm heading into winter here and even minor drop in temperature could skew the results, and our shop is not heated. I'm afraid I really don't have any conclusive way to verify the claimed cycle life. I have heard that TS cells have been verified through independant testing for the advertised cycle life. My impression so far is that these batteries are at least as good as thundersky.

For one thing, they don't have to be banded to prevent swelling from normal use. These cells also have built in internal redundancy because they are composed of many internal cells connected in parallel. My understanding is that TS uses a single large cell for each module. So if one cell fails, the car stalls.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> H\
> 
> For one thing, they don't have to be banded to prevent swelling from normal use. These cells also have built in internal redundancy because they are composed of many internal cells connected in parallel. My understanding is that TS uses a single large cell for each module. So if one cell fails, the car stalls.


Well assuming you're not using a series/parallel configuration.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Well assuming you're not using a series/parallel configuration.


Correct....but for some reason series/parallel connection externally is not recommended. Don't know why, could just be BS. I personally don't see a problem with it.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I have the answer about the charger. 

The BMS is indeed built into the charger instead of having the so called "voltage clamper" design that others have used where there is a control chip installed on each cell or module. So the charger takes care of all the battery charge and management issues. Low voltage cutoff is still up you the builder or vehicle operator though.

Emily tells me that the older battery mounted controler was unreliable and was nothing but trouble so they went with the charger mounted BMS instead. Tony told me the same story earlier on.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Is this order just for 200Ah batteries or can we get other configurations? I'd like 90 or 100Ah, but I'd also need 98 of them so my pack total Ah would be comparable to yours. Can this be added to the order (and what would be the cost)? Thanks!


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## TelnetManta (Jun 5, 2008)

Once the quantity is nearly finalized I would love to know what the bottom line cost is/was. Maybe a few orders like this will eventually drive the cost down.

Ben


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> I have the answer about the charger.
> 
> The BMS is indeed built into the charger instead of having the so called "voltage clamper" design that others have used where there is a control chip installed on each cell or module. So the charger takes care of all the battery charge and management issues. Low voltage cutoff is still up you the builder or vehicle operator though.
> 
> Emily tells me that the older battery mounted controler was unreliable and was nothing but trouble so they went with the charger mounted BMS instead. Tony told me the same story earlier on.


This is unfortunate.

BMS's without low voltage cutoffs and high voltage cutoffs for each cell are dangerous.

that BMS may be better for just 1 cell... but you're planning 48... I'd seriously reconsider. 

Looks like my plan to have an EE friend in college design a custom BMS is still the only option.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> This is unfortunate.
> 
> BMS's without low voltage cutoffs and high voltage cutoffs for each cell are dangerous.
> 
> ...


The high voltage cutoff is taken care of my the charger since it dynamically adjusts the charge current and voltage during charging and will shut down when charge is complete, so in effect there is a high voltage cutoff. The high voltage failure of the cell is claimed to be over 10 volts, the charger stops charging at 3.65V (my observations show closer to 3.55V, but its cool outside right now). The low safe voltage is 2.5V, this is considered the 100% DOD mark.

From my observations, there is a significant drop in amps (~25%) by the time you reach that point. There are low voltage alarms that EVs can be fitted with off the shelf, and I don't think it would be hard to adapt an actual low voltage shut off that will disable the main pack if some one is careless in operating the vehicle.

I don't really see the problem with the charger mouted BMS. The 4 cell ballancer that my sample uses seems to work just fine. Seems to me its fewer thigs to go wrong. The ballance time takes about 2 hours after most of the charge has been completed.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

sailfish11 said:


> Is this order just for 200Ah batteries or can we get other configurations? I'd like 90 or 100Ah, but I'd also need 98 of them so my pack total Ah would be comparable to yours. Can this be added to the order (and what would be the cost)? Thanks!


The cost should be the same per watt hour. There doesn't seem to be any savings in perfromance for going with a larger cell. But I'm not sure if the order would be advantagous if there were several different types of cell sizes. I'll have to ask. I did get a price no problem for my battery alone, so anything added on top of that should be OK, just not sure if we would get much of a break.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The high voltage cutoff is taken care of my the charger since it dynamically adjusts the charge current and voltage during charging and will shut down when charge is complete, so in effect there is a high voltage cutoff. The high voltage failure of the cell is claimed to be over 10 volts, the charger stops charging at 3.65V (my observations show closer to 3.55V, but its cool outside right now). The low safe voltage is 2.5V, this is considered the 100% DOD mark.
> 
> From my observations, there is a significant drop in amps (~25%) by the time you reach that point. There are low voltage alarms that EVs can be fitted with off the shelf, and I don't think it would be hard to adapt an actual low voltage shut off that will disable the main pack if some one is careless in operating the vehicle.
> 
> I don't really see the problem with the charger mouted BMS. The 4 cell ballancer that my sample uses seems to work just fine. Seems to me its fewer thigs to go wrong. The ballance time takes about 2 hours after most of the charge has been completed.


There are numerous issues with that kind of charging when multiple cells are introduced. Firstly Lions should be kept over 30% charge at all times unless you want to basically waste the battery.... one slip up where 1 cell drains faster than the next cell and blamo... loss of 16k dollars.

2ndly the overcharge might not happen, but bloating the batteries isn't necessary to hasten their life span significantly. Simply doing a 101% charge can kill the DoD by quite a lot.

Again you need cell to cell regulation and cut off abilities so cell voltages are monitored and kept from dropping too low for LIFETIME safety.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> There are numerous issues with that kind of charging when multiple cells are introduced. Firstly Lions should be kept over 30% charge at all times unless you want to basically waste the battery.... one slip up where 1 cell drains faster than the next cell and blamo... loss of 16k dollars.
> 
> 2ndly the overcharge might not happen, but bloating the batteries isn't necessary to hasten their life span significantly. Simply doing a 101% charge can kill the DoD by quite a lot.
> 
> Again you need cell to cell regulation and cut off abilities so cell voltages are monitored and kept from dropping too low for LIFETIME safety.


 
I've taken this one past 90% DOD with no ill effects that I could see. Aside from a drop in performance which is to be expected on that end of the cycle, the temperature went up buy 7 degrees, where on previous tests it went up 5 degrees (celsius) during the course of the whole test. I have heard of the 30% SOC rule, but that was in reference to storage and shipping because of legal regulation that was put in place for 3.7V Lion (cobalt oxide) cells. The info I have for these batteries recommends ~50% SOC for transport and storage.

All of the cycle life projections that I've been given by my supplier assumed 80% DOD or more. Thundersky does show cycle life projections for 70% DOD though (in the 3000 range), but their cycle life projections seem to be more optimistic. I remember seeing a graph once that assumed 50% DOD and cycle life of over 5000, but I can't remember where....might have been TS.

What sort of control chips would we be dealing with if they are to be used on cells that can dump up to 1000 amps?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> What sort of control chips would we be dealing with if they are to be used on cells that can dump up to 1000 amps?


Well I've read that anything below 25% of a full charge on Lion will cut the life the same way dropping a lead acid below 50% will... this is why voltage cut offs for each cell/battery is so important.

Well the chip itself wouldn't control it... not that you're talking about a large opamp/mosfet anyway even if you needed that kind of discharge.

Remember that amplifiers have been using opamp (chipamplifiers) in the 300-400w range for a long, long time and they're roughly 2 dollars a piece for the very best ones.

I don't know a ton about electrical engineering. Truthfully though you will only have a monitoring chip per cell/battery, not 1 chip guiding all of the cells. And with a 2C max rating you shouldn't be dumping over 400 amps through 1 cell... not to mention (with 48 batteries like you plan) that would yield almost 9000 amps at (18+kw). I don't think you'll use that much, ever... but maybe I'm wrong. If you do... you will need 0000 gauge copper at least.

a 200w mosfet could easily handle the load, though again... you don't need it... all you need is voltage monitors that relay the data when it's too low and too high to a cutoff (that's where you need the large electronic and mechanical switches) but again... 4000w+ amplifiers have been around for years... and are currently so cheap in the sound industry it's not worth talking about. An 4000w sound amplifier is way more complicated than a non-digital voltage monitoriing system, which is why I've always wondered why BMSs are so few and far between

the only answer I have is that the chinese can't engineer well (which I've experienced first hand for many years). But that's why I feel it'd be a sound investment for my project considering I plan to make many more than one custom, ground up car (cloning my 1000mpg equivalent 500lb car for sale sometime in the next year). Not to mention the students at my college (4th engineering program in the US) would easily design something like that for beer money.

All you need is a chip monitoring high voltages and low voltages for every battery/cell that can then engage a cut off relay between that cell and the line (mechanical). Or you can just make it all digital, which would be cheaper if done right, but harder to engineer.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

So what you are talking about is simply monitoring each cell, feeding that into a central controler or computer, and then thats where the safety system is engaged to either alert the operator or even automatically cut the power. If any one of the cells gets out of speck the safety system activates.

Metric mind has a BMS system. No idea what the price is though.
http://www.metricmind.com/

I remember swapping a few Emails with a representative for Worley Parsons in Singapore last year. Worley Parsons is a big oil company that operates in Australia, south east asia and indonesia. Anyway, they also have a line of LiPo batteries (the older 3.7V chemistry) and Kokam (in Korea) is making their batteries under license. They carry a BMS system like you describe. One chip on each cell, then all communicate to a main PCM. The price was in the $1.60/watt hour range (before the cost of BMS), so I walked away, but they do have a proven product. ProEV racing is using Kokam batteries in their subaru impreza racer.

So you want to build for the market too? Cool, that makes at least three on the forum so far......


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> So you want to build for the market too? Cool, that makes at least three on the forum so far......


I don't want to, I will... within 8 months... the problem is the time to do it currently because of graduate school.

Metricmind, like all DIY BMS systems, is overpriced. He possesses a product everyone one of us "needs" so he charges accordingly being one of the 2 places you can even find a Lithium ion BMS.

I'm hoping to do a full on 0.09cd (with an cross sectional area roughly 1/3 common sedans), 500lb, all fiberglass aluminum 2 tandum seater in the 11,000 dollar finished range with a 100-120mile range off around 8kwh (with kevlar reinforced sides so no side airbags will be needed)... and/or just sell the prepackaged lithium packs + BMS once I'm to that point. Since my making permanent glass molds and welding jigs for the frame I figured I might as well try to sell a few finished cars since they now would qualify for around 5000 dollars in tax credit with the newest bailout bill 

Anyway that's precisely what I mean about the safety system... the cells could in fact activate shunts from one battery if it gets full and then it can be "reset" once the charging has completed... it's a fairly simple system to be honest, but very effective... also if one cell goes bad (or reaches low voltage before the rest) while driving it can easily just remove that 1 battery from the pack and you can keep driving with almost no additional hardware.

Material science is where my love is at, but it's a hobby so that I don't begin to hate it. Lawyering will be my actual career. But it's bugged me for a long time that the auto industry is so incredibly slow to adapt to anything. There are so many amazing materials well beyond anything that exists now that would take them 100+ years to implement if DIYers/small companies don't start destroying their regional business. 
I'm not really talking about fiberglass, elastomers, etc which have been around for 30+ years and they still don't want to implement. But there's things that only exist in lab settings that can easily be scaled up and drop full sedan weights to 700 lbs, provide oil free engines with coefficient of frictions 1/10th that of oil, and provide crash safety at 200+ mph.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I know what you mean. Its a big world with lots of good ideas, but it seems like only the bad ones ever see the light of day. I still can't get over the fact that cars and trucks still rust. One of many reasons why I will never buy a new vehicle. Although yours does sounds like fun. You should see what Lexus is planning...neat stuff.

Well Technologic, its our turn now. Maybe we can do better than those that are holding the rest of the world back. "now all I have to do is build it" heehee.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK back to the original topic.

I got a reply and they do not mind including other sizes of batteries as well and will do what they can to give a good price, but need to know if anyone wants BMS and charger as well. Should I price out everything or just the bare batteries?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> OK back to the original topic.
> 
> I got a reply and they do not mind including other sizes of batteries as well and will do what they can to give a good price, but need to know if anyone wants BMS and charger as well. Should I price out everything or just the bare batteries?


I'm interested in some 100ah packs... maybe 20 or so....

it will depend entirely on price though


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Pricing*



sailfish11 said:


> Is this order just for 200Ah batteries or can we get other configurations? I'd like 90 or 100Ah, but I'd also need 98 of them so my pack total Ah would be comparable to yours. Can this be added to the order (and what would be the cost)? Thanks!


OK, you didn't specify the voltage so I assumed you wanted 313.6V, and thats what I asked for. The voltage is such that they didn't want to price the charger until you are sure its what you want. Something about it being more difficult to match. But the price did include BMS, Hmm... That seems a little confusing, but anyway heres your price:

$13164.18 (US$)

In my case they priced the charger and BMS seperately, so maybe the BMS cost is simply a flat % of battery price. *I asked for 90AH cells.*

Technologic, this could give you an idea what yours would cost as well, but I could ask for 100AH anyway if you want.




RKM said:


> David,
> 
> I'm very interested! I think I would be wanting 45 cells 3.2V with 160Ah (if available) for a pack with 23 KWh.
> 
> ...


 
They seem to like 160AH cells for some reason. Your price includes everything (BMS and charger) and comes to only $7951.36. Thats (sit down for this one guys.......)


$0.345111111111/ watt hour per 

This is the first time I have EVER been quoted a price like this for LiFePo4 batteries. I need to find out if this is a mistake or why the big difference. But if its real, I'll drop my 200AH cells like a bad habit if I can't get a comparable price for the larger size because this is a huge difference in price. Indeed we may all want to switch over to 160AH for that price. I will have to ask why there is such a difference.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Pricing*



david85 said:


> $0.345111111111/ watt hour per
> 
> This is the first time I have EVER been quoted a price like this for LiFePo4 batteries. I need to find out if this is a mistake or why the big difference. But if its real, I'll drop my 200AH cells like a bad habit if I can't get a comparable price for the larger size because this is a huge difference in price. Indeed we may all want to switch over to 160AH for that price. I will have to ask why there is such a difference.


I'm *very* interested at that price point... keep in touch about this.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Pricing*

I’m planning on doing a conversion next year, so I’m studying now. The one conclusion I’ve come to is that to get the range I need to make an EV practical I will have to use some kind of Li-ion technology. I’m thinking something like 144 volts and >150AH. LA just doesn’t have the energy density. So I decided that I have a lot to learn about Lithium batteries and especially battery management systems.

In trying to learn about BMS’s I ran across a man named Peter Perkins who lives in North Yorkshire, England. He is in the process of upgrading his Prius to Li batteries to improve his gas mileage. He is doing the design as an open source project and has put all of the information on a forum on the battery vehicle society. Others on the forum are planning to use his design on EV’s.

Currently the thread is 36 pages long. I think it took me two weeks to read through it all, but I believe it is, or could be, the best BMS available. Of course this isn’t a commercial product. Only a hand full of people have tested it. Plus you will need to have some electronics background to build and customize it. Just from looking around the web, if I were going to implement a BMS today I’d build one of these.

Here’s the link. I’m curious about what you all think.
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk//forums/viewtopic.php?t=1245
 
*Larry
*


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

*Re: Pricing*



david85 said:


> They seem to like 160AH cells for some reason. Your price includes everything (BMS and charger) and comes to only $7951.36. Thats (sit down for this one guys.......)
> 
> 
> $0.345111111111/ watt hour per
> ...


 
David,

Sounds too good to be true!! I'm waiting to hear that this is an error, but am hoping it might be correct. If you were to allow a value of even $1500 for the charger and BMS, this works out to only about $0.28/Wh. This is close to half of what recent quotes have been, that's why I remain skeptical.

If the quote is right, are the charger and BMS of good quality? Technologic is concerned about the function of the BMS. If it won't do the job, its not worth having. Would we be better off to just buy the cells and go with another supplier for the charger and BMS?? 

If the prices are for real and the cells are good (so far so good with your testing, need higher C test!), there will be lots of people interested in this buy.

I remain cautiously optimistic!!

Rob


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Pricing*

First of all, I want to thank you VERY much for acting as the go-between and organizer for all this -- very much appreciated!



david85 said:


> OK, you didn't specify the voltage so I assumed you wanted 313.6V, and thats what I asked for. The voltage is such that they didn't want to price the charger until you are sure its what you want. Something about it being more difficult to match. But the price did include BMS, Hmm... That seems a little confusing, but anyway heres your price:
> 
> $13164.18 (US$)
> 
> In my case they priced the charger and BMS seperately, so maybe the BMS cost is simply a flat % of battery price. *I asked for 90AH cells.*


That's great -- 90Ah is fine. I'm ready to say 'sold' but I'd like to know battery dimensions and weight (is there a website somewhere we can look this up ourselves? I hate asking you to do all this legwork for us!).

Also, when do you plan on placing the order and do you know an estimate for delivery? FOB where -- West Coast?

...and I hate to ask for even more, but could you find out what the price would be for 98 of the 60Ah (using $/Wh I estimated $6480). Also, weight and size?

Man, this is exciting!


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Pricing*



RKM said:


> David,
> 
> Sounds too good to be true!! I'm waiting to hear that this is an error, but am hoping it might be correct. If you were to allow a value of even $1500 for the charger and BMS, this works out to only about $0.28/Wh. This is close to half of what recent quotes have been, that's why I remain skeptical.


I've seen FOB quotes at the 0.40/wH range... so I don't doubt it's possible.

I definitely wouldn't use this BMS type for multiple packs though. If I decide to get in on this order I'll throw up my schematic for the BMS when it's finished.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: Pricing*



RKM said:


> David,
> 
> Sounds too good to be true!! I'm waiting to hear that this is an error, but am hoping it might be correct. If you were to allow a value of even $1500 for the charger and BMS, this works out to only about $0.28/Wh. This is close to half of what recent quotes have been, that's why I remain skeptical.
> 
> ...


It does sound very good, so keep your skepticism. All I can think of is that maybe the 160Ah cells are in higher demand so those are the ones that they make more of anyway. It will be monday in china (or later tonight for me) before I'll know why the difference in price.

Personally, I'm not that worried about the BMS and charging system they are using because LiFePo4 batteries are more forgiving than the older cobalt oxide batteries. I've also seen the system work and I'm satisfied. There are some who say that they can be run without BMS at all if C rates are kept low enough (Not that I would recommend that!). If you, Technologic, or anyone else thinks they have a better BMS system, than you are welcome to try. You can order the battery with or without the in house BMS and charger. I will be ordering a complete system in my case.

I have the higher C tests planned.....


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: Pricing*



sailfish11 said:


> First of all, I want to thank you VERY much for acting as the go-between and organizer for all this -- very much appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, Wait till you see bill for my fees!! LMAO!!!

I asked for the port of vancouver, although if I were to simply take on the role of a drop shipper, it might take a more direct path to you. Vancouver would be the prefered port for anyone in canada and my order is still the only order that is pretty much decided on (as in, I WILL be buying). All these details will have to be worked out.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

In case anyone is interested with the BMS on this thing... this is what it's missing for each cell from what david has said.

http://www.edn.com/archives/1998/091198/pdfs/17d22531.pdf

Something like this cutoff, but designed for 2.5v I believe 

Again I know almost nothing about electrical engineering... but that + a high voltage cut off is needed for 100% security on each cell.

This could easily be done if I decide to grab these cells... the problem is I also want my BMS to relay the voltage data from each cell to an LCD which is why I intend to pay someone from my undergraduate college to work something up digitally.

However, that analog circuit would "do the trick" if you used that and a high voltage cut off on the charging system. This is 99% of the "difficulty" of any long range Lion system... and it's so simple


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Update!

The price of the 160Ah battery is confirmed. I have asked Emily for any and all information she can provided on them. As for why the price is different, she mentioned that their pricing is not generally a direct reflection of $ / watt hour like we use but instead varries from different specs, but as for the specific reason why there is a such a big difference, she is not allowed to say (trade secret). I suspect the 200Ah is't used as often and there is a slight premium in price for that size. I've seen similar pricing patterns with TS batteries as well. 

Bottom line is, the price was not a mistake. I am seriously considering a switch to 160Ah batteries and simply ordering more of them. I might have to switch to an AC or DC brushless motor though.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Update!
> 
> The price of the 160Ah battery is confirmed. I have asked Emily for any and all information she can provided on them. As for why the price is different, she mentioned that their pricing is not generally a direct reflection of $ / watt hour like we use but instead varries from different specs, but as for the specific reason why there is a such a big difference, she is not allowed to say (trade secret). I suspect the 200Ah is't used as often and there is a slight premium in price for that size. I've seen similar pricing patterns with TS batteries as well.
> 
> Bottom line is, the price was not a mistake. I am seriously considering a switch to 160Ah batteries and simply ordering more of them. I might have to switch to an AC or DC brushless motor though.


Have you received any 90Ah price for the same cell voltage? or 100ah pricing?

I'm very interested in a purchase of 20 100Ah or 22 90AH.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Have you received any 90Ah price for the same cell voltage? or 100ah pricing?
> 
> I'm very interested in a purchase of 20 100Ah or 22 90AH.


Yes I did actually, its in an earlier post. The price for the 90 Ah cells was $0.466 /watt hour (BMS included), so the 160Ah cells are still the better deal.


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes I did actually, its in an earlier post. The price for the 90 Ah cells was $0.466 /watt hour (BMS included), so the 160Ah cells are still the better deal.


Have you received prices without BMS? that could infact be the reason for the watt hour difference (higher) for the 90AH cells.

Either way I might just get more 160ah cells to keep voltage where I want it if the base price without BMS is that smaller

Did you ever receive any more information of how the multiple cell charging system would work? since it's built into the charger how can you make it smaller for each cell?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes I did actually, its in an earlier post. The price for the 90 Ah cells was $0.466 /watt hour (BMS included), so the 160Ah cells are still the better deal.


David,

Another thanks going your way for all the work and diligence on this. Perhaps I missed it, but are you quotes in CAD or USD?

This is getting exciting. 

Regards,
Gary


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> David,
> 
> Another thanks going your way for all the work and diligence on this. Perhaps I missed it, but are you quotes in CAD or USD?
> 
> ...


 
All prices are in US$ Last I checked our dollar was on the rise again, but I'll have to check again to see where it is (haven't checked today though). I'd like to make my order sooner rather than later.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> This is unfortunate.
> 
> BMS's without low voltage cutoffs and high voltage cutoffs for each cell are dangerous.
> 
> ...


Technologic,

Check out this link and tell me what you think. Myself and RKM have had discussions with Darius at Electrocraft. He appears to be a very capable fellow and has built what you are talking about. This page has a cartoon of his BMS for LiFePo's. Notice it includes monitoring of each cell, over and under voltage and temp protection as well as collected and reported data and alarming. http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/battery.html

Gary


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Technologic,
> 
> Check out this link and tell me what you think. Myself and RKM have had discussions with Darius at Electrocraft. He appears to be a very capable fellow and has built what you are talking about. This page has a cartoon of his BMS for LiFePo's. Notice it includes monitoring of each cell, over and under voltage and temp protection as well as collected and reported data and alarming. http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/battery.html
> 
> Gary


There's a number of good things about that charging system. Firstly the resistor input for overcharging is a pretty great cheap idea to prevent overvoltage.

Secondly, though I don't like the marketablity of buzzers/alarms and totally shutting down charging if overvoltage occurs, but I do like the abilities here. These things could be applied to light systems, and tied to the charger to sort of "reset" any undervoltage limits once it's hooked up to charging again instead of manual push buttons.

In my opinion, the electronics should attempt to reset the cell digitally then restart charging if overvoltage of a cell occurs. Likewise with undervoltage it should simply "remove" that one cell from the group of batteries so it doesn't strand you... and it can then on the next charging cycle restart the battery system.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Electronics like this are well beyond my knowledge, but at this point I think its safe to say that it is possible to make a completely new BMS system if the charger mounted BMS is deemed to be unreliable or if you simply prefer the cell mounted BMS.

We'll have to see how this plays out, but at this point I'm ready to make my order unless theres something weird that I find out about the 160Ah cells. But if anything, they should be even easier to fit in the saturn. I'm thinking of going with 58 160Ah cells for a 185.6V system. Considering the potential savings and higher system voltage, a brushless motor will be used instead of a series wound brushed. The cost of this EV will have to be mostly spent before the end of the year to get the best tax write off for the business, so I can't wait too much longer.

The testing on my sample isn't finished yet, but we're prepared to take the risk based on what I know so far. It will turn over my diesel truck like nobody's business, and thats about the toughest test I can make anyway. I'll still try and take some measurements as time permits but my mind is pretty much made up.

Just waiting on Emily to get back to me with that info.....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do you have a specific brushless motor in mind?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Do you have a specific brushless motor in mind?


I was thinking of the MES 250 motor that metric mind carries, but not decided yet. I have a lead on what could be a better one, but I'll have to see. Azure is also said to be working on some better motors, not sure if they'll talk to me though. 

Anything with 30HP+ constant and 100HP+ peak power and at least 5000 RPM will be good enough for me. Also expect regen considering the higher price. If worst comes to worst I'll could still go with a warp 9" or something like it.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

How much would a 72 v 50 or 60 AH pack cost?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The testing on my sample isn't finished yet, but we're prepared to take the risk based on what I know so far. It will turn over my diesel truck like nobody's business, and thats about the toughest test I can make anyway. I'll still try and take some measurements as time permits but my mind is pretty much made up.
> 
> Just waiting on Emily to get back to me with that info.....


That's fine mate... no issues with me... I'd just rather not have the BMS at all and save the costs


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

david85 said:


> Anything with 30HP+ constant and 100HP+ peak power and at least 5000 RPM will be good enough for me. Also expect regen considering the higher price. If worst comes to worst I'll could still go with a warp 9" or something like it.


You can pick up a used AC55 on Ebay for $800 and have it refurbished (for another ~$600). See my thread about it. It's a heavy motor, but would meet your requirements and has a proven track record in EVs.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

David,

How does it feel to play Santa Claus to so many EV enthusiasts?

Again, thanks so much for getting us closer to lithium! 

I'm leaning heavily toward the 160 Ah cells, without the charger or BMS. I think I have another supplier for the charger/BMS that I am more comfortable with (no offense!).

Can you quote a price for 90 X 160 Ah cells (I'll be ordering cells for two conversions)?

You're right that our CAD is currently rising! More good news!

Any idea how many KWh are accumulating for this purchase? I expect it may be quite significant. This might be an opportunity to suggest to the supplier that a sale of this size, to a significant number of people could very well make or break their reputation as a supplier of quality LiFePO4 cells. It would be in their best interest to insure that this sale results in very satified customers. Just a thought.

I look forward to hearing what the bare cell price is.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> Have you received prices without BMS? that could infact be the reason for the watt hour difference (higher) for the 90AH cells.
> 
> Either way I might just get more 160ah cells to keep voltage where I want it if the base price without BMS is that smaller
> 
> Did you ever receive any more information of how the multiple cell charging system would work? since it's built into the charger how can you make it smaller for each cell?


Sorry, I missed this post.

The price for the 200Ah cells worked out to $0.466/ watt hour without BMS or charger. So at this point the 200Ah battery I picked ended up being the most expensive lol

The BMS simply has a wire running from the charger to every connection on the battery between the cells. In my case the sample has 4 cells so the charger has 5 wires going to the battery (besides the main + and -). I don't think the Ah rating has much affect on the operation of the BMS cycle of the charge because the current drops so low once the charger starts to ballance the cells in the battery. I could probably use the same charger on larger or smaller cells as long as they are the same number and are wired the same way (ie, 12.8V).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

RKM said:


> David,
> 
> How does it feel to play Santa Claus to so many EV enthusiasts?
> 
> ...


 
Well you sure seem confident! 90 160Ah cells? wow

My order (for now at least) will be 58 160Ah cells,

and I think Technologic wants 20 160 Ah cells.

That would bring the total to 86 016 KHW (that s KW - H, not WH!!!) assuming no one else wants to order this time around.

As for feeling like the fat guy in red....I have to say I wasn't really expecting to attract this much attention. If this works out, I might have to launch a formal website. At $0.30 / watt hour this is now a viable option that could put lead out to pasture for good. Add to that the better performance and it could even help the push for more EV conversions. As far as I know, there is no one else that is doing this in canada.

Emily has requested the info from an engineer that I asked for on the 160 Ah cells. I'm waiting on that at the moment.

Now I think I might be getting a little exited....just a little


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well you sure seem confident! 90 160Ah cells? wow
> 
> My order (for now at least) will be 58 160Ah cells,
> 
> ...


 
I'm only confident because of your testing and your confidence in the product (and because of the price point). Don't get me second guessing myself!! Now that we're getting down to writing a cheque... what do you know about this company? Good track record... ethics, environment, human rights? 

Have you given thought to the logistics (freight, escrow...)? What about import duty, brokerage, etc.?

I come up with 86.016 KWh (168 cells X 3.2 V X 160Ah). I think you're missing a decimal!

The 90 cells aren't all for myself, half are for a friend. So I guess I'm half confident. At least the financial risk is greatly reduced from what it had been! I'm pretty sure you'll be hearing from at least one more forum member regarding a purchase.

My final selection of components has been waiting on the final decision for batteries (V, Ah and chemistry). It's good to get closer to some decisions!!

Thanks.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

D-oh, you're right. Missing a decimal!

I'll have to look into escrow, because we will have to work something like that out.

I'm open to suggestions on how to perform the transaction.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> and I think Technologic wants 20 160 Ah cells.


lol we'll see if I can shore up the money before I get capital gains tax increases on all of the money I've made trading the last few weeks.

Wish me luck *sighs*

Planning my future to avoid taxes already... and I make 45k/yr


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dude! you cleared 45K a year just trading on your own?

Actually, we HAVE to spend money to avoid paying too much tax. The business will become incorperated in the next couple of days, and that will allow us to claim R&D as a write off. We already have all the materials we need to get through most of next year so we have to spend it on something or else pay the tax on the income.

The problems we have, LOL!


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Dude! you cleared 45K a year just trading on your own?
> 
> Actually, we HAVE to spend money to avoid paying too much tax. The business will become incorperated in the next couple of days, and that will allow us to claim R&D as a write off. We already have all the materials we need to get through most of next year so we have to spend it on something or else pay the tax on the income.
> 
> The problems we have, LOL!


The amount of money I've made in the last 4 weeks is up to $7800 dollars from trading GM and a few other stocks (buying and resold 3 times when it's dipped into the 5s... once at 4.80, once at 5.21, once at 5.69. (sold at 7.10, sold at 6.75, still keeping the stock I bought at 5.69)

Good luck to the US... we'll need it to avoid Carter again.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I might be in on this deal for BMS & Charger I need
24x 160ahr. (unless 2 chains of 24 can be strung for 76.8v parallel)

Would need a cost

Main issues 

1. when are you ordering?
2. I am in the US aka Wisconsin, how is payment going to be handled?
3. Has anyone used lithiums in a car?

Thanx, if I am too late maybe we will have some feedback and I can order next go around.

Cheers
Ryan


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hi, rmay635703. Welcome to the forum.

No, you're not really too late. But as I've said to others, I don't think you have to pannic to be in on this purchace. If this goes well, I *WILL* be doing this again! I'm waiting for the technical specks on the 160Ah cells and unless I find something really wrong there, it shouldn't take too long after that. I hope my saturn conversion will come soon after the batteries arrive and there will be even more info on real world performance to help you decide.

Escrow is one option thats been mentioned for payment, and I'm open to discussing other options. I certainly understand how trust can be a problem having never met face to face. If you have a preferred payment method, then post it here and we can talk about it (or by PM or Email if you prefer a more private chat).

I have heard of lithium batteries being used in other conversions but I don't think anyone of the forum has used them yet, unless my electric trolling motor counts. The other examples I saw used thundersky batteries (LFP series).


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

This does look interesting, but I’m having a little trouble understanding exactly what you will be ordering. That is, what kind of package, etc. Do you have a web site that shows these batteries? I’d like to be able to see a picture and a description so I that think here’s what it is and here’s what it costs per battery.

I might be more interested in a second round because my EV conversion can’t happen until next year sometime. I have the car, but there are a few other things I have to get done first. Does anyone know about shelf life for Lifepo4 batteries? 

*Larry*


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

I can do Paypal/escrow/wire transfer directly to the company ... whichever you prefer.

I've had numerous experiences dealing with chinese businesses (and transfering money).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Rook said:


> Does anyone know about shelf life for Lifepo4 batteries?
> *Larry*


Hi Larry,
I'm glad you asked that question. We've been over this before, but I'll post it again in case others don't know. 

These batteries have only been in production for about 5 years, so theres no way to know how long they will last. Best projections put the useable lifespan above 10 years, but there is no way to be absolutely sure. Older, more sensitive and less stable LiPo batteries were good for up to 10 years if well cared for, so these should be at least as good. But again, since the technology is only 5 years old, the projected shelf / calender light cannot be absolutely confirmed.

The sample I ordered was only the cells, connector bars and a charger (and related wiring). No case. The website does not show these batteries.

Here is a picture of the 12.8V sample that I ordered and have been testing: What you see is what I got.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> I can do Paypal/escrow/wire transfer directly to the company ... whichever you prefer.
> 
> I've had numerous experiences dealing with chinese businesses (and transfering money).


I did direct wire transfer as thats what they requested. No real problems, But we recently discovered that our bank has branches in china for decades, so we might be able to streamline it a little better. Escrow is OK, but theres a fee that would bring the cost up a bit.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> I did direct wire transfer as thats what they requested. No real problems, But we recently discovered that our bank has branches in china for decades, so we might be able to streamline it a little better. Escrow is OK, but theres a fee that would bring the cost up a bit.


A LOT of chinese businesses have switched to paypal with direct deposits into chinese banks...

There is a $20 service fee to use it usually... but it's actually quite safe against fraud (versus a wire transfer).

Though a wire transfer to China is very safe these days... their government is EXTREMELY strict with prison sentences/fines to the business if they don't send the correct shipped goods.

I don't mind paypaling you david either... I was just trying to avoid you being directly responsible for payment redistribution and all of the "liability" that can go along with it.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the picture and the info. 5 years is an eternity in technological terms. You have to trust the engineers on shelf life because by the time they sit around long enough to test the answer a newer technology will come along. I’m pretty risk averse, but I’d be more likely to take a chance on batteries than 1300 shares of GM. (Although, I’d like to be a little more like Technologic).

*Larry*


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## Gary Sconce (Oct 4, 2008)

I am working toward two regen DC builds and may be interested in the future. Please keep us informed as to the method you use to purchase and as to the quality of the product you receive. 

Your work on our behalf is greatly appreciated.

May I suggest you address your questions regarding battery purchase to the Chinese consulate in San Francisco? If you contact the consulate and specify you aim to enlarge a new market for Chinese sales of batteries in the USA, you may have a government ally in assuring a proper and speedy transaction.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Gary, if you are working on a regen DC system than I am very interested.

*General battery info update!*

I finally have the info on the 144V battery and in particular the 160Ah cells. The batteries that use the 160Ah cells are in fact made of 4 cells wired in parallel to make up the 160Ah rating and then those assemblies are treated like individual cells that are wired together in series to get up to the 144V rating. In essence, this is a series/parallel wired battery (so I guess that myth is busted). Also the number of 3.2V assemblies is in fact 48, not 45. The idea probably being to better anticipate the voltage sag at higher C conditions. C ratings are the same as the 200Ah cells I tested: 1C constant and 5C peak.

The individual cells (which I assume are ~40Ah each) are 110 x 56 x 165 MM in size, or 4.3 x 2.2 x 6.5 in inches (remember 4 used to make a 160Ah assembly). The complete assembled battery would be only 6.5" tall, and have a foot print of 54 x 35" (inches) if assembled in one space but you can dissasemble the pack and spread the battery all over the car like any other battery. The sizing of these cells would make a night and day difference when it comes to fitting them to a car compared to those 200Ah giants that I tested. Those were over 13" tall (223 x 58 x 337 MM or 8.75 x 2.25 x 13.25 in inches)

There is a pleasant surprise here. The energy density.....

The 144V battery weighs 172Kg, for the 23.04kwh of reserve, and unless I missed another decimal point, that means an energy density of almost 132Wh/Kg. My 200Ah sample under 90Wh/Kg. 

Chew on those numbers!


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

david85 said:


> Gary, if you are working on a regen DC system than I am very interested.
> 
> *General battery info update!*
> 
> ...


So at 23,040 watt hours of estimated energy. You can assuming only 90% energy efficiency, 20,736 watt hours, (could easily be higher) you get the estimated ranges for different WH would be:

200WH - 103.6
250WH - 83
300WH - 69
350WH - 59.3
400WH - 51.8

Now those are some impressive numbers ... chewed on and loved 

I'm not in a position to purchase now, but will this purchase line be available in the future on a re-occurring basis?

-Gregg-


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

280z1975 said:


> I'm not in a position to purchase now, but will this purchase line be available in the future on a re-occurring basis?
> 
> -Gregg-


Gregg, if these batteries perform well, I will definitely make more orders like this. I've been in constant contact with this company since summer, and I have hopes that this could be more than just a one time thing. I am encouraged by what I see so far.

The pressure is now on for me to get my conversion rolling and rack up as many miles as I can next year. Its my hope that I can get a consistent 100+ mile range with my ~190V 160Ah battery. I should also add that the car will not gain much weight with these batteries.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi David,
Firstly thanks for all the hard work you're putting in for the EV community, it's really appreciated  

As these 160Ah batteries are actually made up of 4x40Ah cells in parallel, what provision is made for balancing within each individual battery itself? Surely as cell balancing seems to be so important with Lithium, this set up is a recipe for early battery failure unless each battery has an internally fitted BMS as well as the overall BMS provided with the charging set up? 

Are you going to get this clarified?

Kind regards

Paul


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Gregg, if these batteries perform well, I will definitely make more orders like this. I've been in constant contact with this company since summer, and I have hopes that this could be more than just a one time thing. I am encouraged by what I see so far.
> 
> The pressure is now on for me to get my conversion rolling and rack up as many miles as I can next year. Its my hope that I can get a consistent 100+ mile range with my ~190V 160Ah battery. I should also add that the car will not gain much weight with these batteries.


David 85 and All,
I was recently asked privately what I thought about this group purchase and what could be done about payment arrangements. I have decided to post my private reply, publicly. 

Please save your bashing. I do not know David85 from a hill of beans. It appears as though he has done much work in the pursuit of this new technology for the benefit of all. I would challenge him though, to address the points that I make, without prejudice. If, at the end of the day, this message serves to improve the process, than it was worthwhile. I won't apologize for due diligence. 

Here are my comments;

Electric vehicle application.I'm not sure that I would post this on the forum for fear of retribution for "bashing the saviour to the EV world", but doesn't something smell a little fishy to you? I'm pretty sure David has a legitimate interest in proving this battery and getting the best deal. The problem I'm having is.... hmm, let me see if I can verbalize my scepticism. He has been asked several time to offer up the web site and/or reveal the company. He has not stepped up. So, ask yourself why. Perhaps he sees an opportunity to make money on this purchase or turn it into a business in the future as an import broker. I don't have a problem with this, but he hasn't stated his intentions to do so. In fact he has offered to arrange payment in whatever way works best. If he really is willing to arrange whatever payment works best, (as in direct to the company) then why the secrecy? As long as everyone acts together, which can be done through escrow arrangement, to get the bulk buying rate (which is another issue I have, to be broached in a moment) the discount should apply. Now for the rate of discount details..... no information, that I have seen on this topic. I recall a statement regarding something to do with the apparent lack of difference it made on the size of order, but could be mistaken on that. Everyone so far that has done some digging on battery supply, gives up the info pretty freely. If David wants to turn this into a business, then he needs to say so and have all of the overhead that comes with running a business. I would not mind in the least to pay David for his time and efforts. Does David offer a replacement warranty, service, pass through technical advise as an arm from the supplier, business insurance etc?? ​ ​ If I was absolutely serious about placing an order for batteries from China, I would definitely not be sending "David85", or any other person, my hard earned cash. I would also probably, and still yet may, call him out on these issues publicly. ​ ​ The forum is suppose to be a vehicle for people to freely share helpful information that will result in the saving of time, effort and money. I, for example, do not want to purchase LiFePo batteries for a few more months. I would however, be very grateful to someone who has been able to contribute to the saving of my time, money effort. So, when I am ready, should I have to go to David85? This forum is not the place for soliciting services or wares.... it is against the philosophy of what a forum is intended for... IMHO.​


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> David 85 and All,
> I was recently asked privately what I thought about this group purchase and what could be done about payment arrangements. I have decided to post my private reply, publicly.
> 
> Please save your bashing. I do not know David85 from a hill of beans. It appears as though he has done much work in the pursuit of this new technology for the benefit of all. I would challenge him though, to address the points that I make, without prejudice. If, at the end of the day, this message serves to improve the process, than it was worthwhile. I won't apologize for due diligence.


I suspect that David wouldn't be able to make any money off of a 0.35/wh find... if he is... then more power to him because I'm perfectly happy paying that price. Every lithium factory I've asked for quotations with is significantly more (about 10-15% more).

He's had good results, and I suspect the batteries are legitimately prismatic lifepo


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## hardym (Apr 2, 2008)

There is not a mysterious supplier, the information has been spread across 4 different DIY forums over the last 6 months. 
First there was the discussion of the supplier (wecome cindy zou), and davids initial order for 12V of the 200Ah. Then, david85 did some testing using the outboard motor (200AH LiFePo4 Battery Test Results ), then discussion split into two different Lifepo4 threads(LiFePO4 Resources ), and this thread. This thread is about who wants in on a purchase.

So, the vendor info can be found here

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=81431#post81431
"...Zhuhai sanchuan electronic technoly.,LTD. www.chinabatterycenter.com .our company sell severl kinds of battery,especial take advantage of lead acid battery,lifepo4 battery,..."
​Anna was the rep -- you can find her info in the thread.


David85 and Joseph3354 are groundbreaking, as there are VERY FEW vehicles with LiFePo4. I applaud them, and yes it is risky, so if you are risk averse, the just sit back and watch and learn. (like me  )

Mark.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

hardym said:


> David85 and Joseph3354 are groundbreaking, as there are VERY FEW vehicles with LiFePo4. I applaud them, and yes it is risky, so if you are risk averse, the just sit back and watch. (like me  )
> 
> Mark.


I don't mind being a guinea pig just so long as I use my custom designed BMS for the system I suspect I'll have excellent results in my 500 lb custom glassed up 2 seater with 0.09 Cd (that will begin construction once the semester is over).

I'm shooting for a 1000mpg equivalent with 200 mile range or more from a 8kwh pack.

If the BMS works I'll likely being offering it for sale (with packs if people wanted) for DIY purposes. Though I suspect the BMS for this system will cost less than $200 (since the high/low voltage cutoffs and charger/transformer/rectifier is such a simple design).


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

hardym said:


> There is not a mysterious supplier, the information has been spread across 4 different DIY forums over the last 6 months.
> First there was the discussion of the supplier (wecome cindy zou), and davids initial order for 12V of the 200Ah. Then, david85 did some testing using the outboard motor (200AH LiFePo4 Battery Test Results ), then discussion split into two different Lifepo4 threads(LiFePO4 Resources ), and this thread. This thread is about who wants in on a purchase.
> 
> So, the vendor info can be found here
> ...


Thanks for that Mark, I didn't see this before.

G


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

i was taken back by that message. another function of the forum is to provide accurate information. If I were to want to indirectly discredit someone (not saying ill intentioned), I would at least take the time to read through the postings.

David, keep up the good work. I have a feeling if you obtain these batteries and are able to achieve 100 mile range, there will be many interested.

as someone who is 90% finished with my EV, I cannot thank this forum enough for the direct & indirect assistance. These lithium batteries is a continued step in that assistance.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Someone should just rename the thread "Seiden" LiFePo4 battery order so it's clear where these are coming from without having to track down some isolated post.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its OK guys, I understand where he is coming from.

Yes, this is the company website: www.chinabatterycenter.com

As you can see, there isn't much there. I mentioned this on another thread, and posted the web link there as well. It was my mistake to assume that everyone here knew the back round.

Credit also goes to Joseph3354 for first introducing this company to the forum. He contacted the sales rep, and that started my dialog with this company.

Yes, I do hope to turn this into a drop shipping business if things turn out well (lots of things have to fall into place first though and its too early to say for sure), but I did not want to make much on this order. It all depends on how smoothly this turns out.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

saab96 said:


> Someone should just rename the thread "Seiden" LiFePo4 battery order so it's clear where these are coming from without having to track down some isolated post.


I tried changing the title, but looks like it will be up to an admin to do that.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

chamilun said:


> i was taken back by that message. another function of the forum is to provide accurate information. If I were to want to indirectly discredit someone (not saying ill intentioned), I would at least take the time to read through the postings.


Obviously I read the postings well enough to figure out what was going on. There were more than enough clues. 

Thank you David85 for coming clean. Its a free country and I'm sure more than a few ppl would be fine with it. Personally, I still don't think it is what this forum was meant to be. Its not about the amount of money. I will let the administration comment on that.

You've done some really good stuff with your testing (yes I did read that too) and you have helped to bring hope to many who thought this technology was out of reach. 

I too am very thankful for the information, lessons learned, money and time saving ideas, its simply awesome and empowering to feel like one can have some control over a fundamental need such as this, one that has many of us feeling handcuffed. 
May I suggest that you take this opportunity to provide the service you are hoping to profit from, for free the first time through. It will allow you to gain the experience needed to pursue your business arrangement, and garner the trust of those participating. Next time anyyone needing this valuable advise and willing to pay for it, may choose to do so. 

I may be one of them. 


Best regards,

Gary


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think there as been any attempt to hide anything so I'm not sure what you are getting at. David has been quite open about everything as far as I can tell. I don't get the impression that he's trying to make any money on this initial purchase at all. He's ordering batteries for himself, and if he can get a better price by including orders for others why not?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> O
> 
> Thank you David85 for coming clean. Its a free country and I'm sure more than a few ppl would be fine with it. Personally, I still don't think it is what this forum was meant to be. Its not about the amount of money. I will let the administration comment on that.



... he hasn't made money... he's offering a group purchase to save shipping costs.

I seriously don't understand what the hell you think David's asked for?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Yes, I do hope to turn this into a drop shipping business if things turn out well (lots of things have to fall into place first though and its too early to say for sure), but I did not want to make much on this order. It all depends on how smoothly this turns out.


What part did I miss?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> What part did I miss?


The fact that he's given the prices he was quoted, website, etc so people could easily go to the supplier himself... if you're talking about drop and reshipping + a fee for it... who cares?

That seems REALLY resonable to me and overall probably would be cheaper than just buying the items individually.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> Obviously I read the postings well enough to figure out what was going on. There were more than enough clues.
> 
> Thank you David85 for coming clean. Its a free country and I'm sure more than a few ppl would be fine with it. Personally, I still don't think it is what this forum was meant to be. Its not about the amount of money. I will let the administration comment on that.
> 
> ...


Gary,

Do you really think I have mislead you or anyone else?

The administrator and I are on a first name basis. I've been here long before the forum traffic shot up from high gas prices. Some how I don't think he would have a problem with my actions, but you are welcome to contact him if you think there is something wrong with what I have said or done.

For what its worth, I was thinking almost exactly what you suggest. I don't really want to make money off of this battery order, but if they prove reliable and perform as claimed, then I might try and make a business out of it. I also want to build ready assembled electric cars some day, does that concern you as well? This is all thats a long ways off right now. 

I also have not made a single penny off of my sample testing, sharing of information, and on going negotiations with my supplier. What do you think that time, effort and info would be worth normally if you had to pay for that kind of service? 

The original plan was to test the battery for my own benifit as a way to manage the risk of buying a larger product that I couldn't be sure of in terms of quality. Since this was a problem that we all face, I shared the info just for the hell of it. It was only then that I was approached by the odd member that offered to take part in a larger purchace, and things started rolling from there. So eventually, I started this thread....*shrugs*


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sometimes people see a conspiracy where there is none.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sometimes people see a conspiracy where there is none.


Dropping $10K+ of well-earned money on a battery order (during a financial crash no less) with someone you've never met makes one a little cautious.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I still have some hard thinking to do on how this could, or could not work. I might just order a single 144V battery for myself this time around and continue to post my results. Most of the interest in all of this is with the 144V 160Ah battery because of the price advantage so I might as well put my efforts there. However if there is a cloud of suspicion building, then it might be better not to do a group buy like this at all. I've seen attempts like this back fire before, and I don't really feel like being burned or risk having some one else feel like I'm trying to rape them.

Is anyone even ready yet? Because I'm not. May be another week or two before I can be sure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Dropping $10K+ of well-earned money on a battery order (during a financial crash no less) with someone you've never met makes one a little cautious.


Of course, and one should be. However, unfounded accusations based on inaccurate information, ("we don't know why brand of batteries these are"), is counter productive. Anyone may contact the company directly themselves if they wish, nothing has been hidden.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

david85 said:


> I still have some hard thinking to do on how this could, or could not work. I might just order a single 144V battery for myself this time around and continue to post my results. Most of the interest in all of this is with the 144V 160Ah battery because of the price advantage so I might as well put my efforts there. However if there is a cloud of suspicion building, then it might be better not to do a group buy like this at all. I've seen attempts like this back fire before, and I don't really feel like being burned or risk having some one else feel like I'm trying to rape them.
> 
> Is anyone even ready yet? Because I'm not. May be another week or two before I can be sure.


David,

Just wanted to send a quick note as I'll be away for several days.

I'm still very much interested in a purchase for two conversions. I won't need the batteries until spring (March-May??).

I hope you will not take personal offense at the caution being expressed, as I expect none was intended. None of us have met face to face and, occasionally, people will take advantage of others (not suggesting that is your intent! You're not an agent for LionEV are you??). It would be naive for any of us to think otherwise. It is reasonable that questions be asked and answered so that we all know what it is we will be getting and how it will happen. 

I've never been involved in this type of group purchase and consequently am not aware of the procedures to provide security for all involved. I don't know the cost of an escrow service, but it may be worth the cost to minimize the risk inherent in such a transaction (again, no offense David).

One quick question/comment re. the 160 Ah batteries... I would have expected the energy density to be comparable to the 200 Ah model. Does the higher energy density suggest a difference in chemistry and/or construction? I think you may have suggested in an earlier thread that some of the brands with higher energy density may not have as long a life expectancy (may be wrong about this). Is there a downside to higher energy density?

I want these batteries to be a success in my EV! Thanks David and others who have taken the initial risk on the lithium front.

Regards,

Rob


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

the bottom line is this:

if you do not want to trust anyone with your money for a group purchase,then don't.the info is freely given for anyone to make their own purchases directly with the manufacturer.

david85 and myself have spent our own money to make sample purchases to verify the claims of this manufacturer.

you can LEAD a horse to water but, you can't MAKE him drink!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Rob,

I would have expected lower energy density as well, but the specs sheet that I got states that they are indeed LiFePO4, and not some other chemistry. All I can do is take their word for it.

I did not take any offence, but once doubt is mentioned, it tends to take on a life of its own. It is understandable and quite common, in fact I am the one feeling a little naive. Bulk buys have been mentioned before on the forum and they rarely turn out well, I was hoping this one could be different.

If DYIguy has concerns about me than that is understandable and if he doens't want to trust me that is his choice and no one else's to make. The only thing I really took issue with was DYIguy's mention that this was some how not in the spirit of what the forum should be. This from some one that has less than 50 posts here and joined last month.

I'll know more next week. I've been in business with my Dad for the last 6 years and he has an appointment at our bank's business adviser on monday morning. If it helps at all, this is our company listed in the campbell river business directory on the city website: http://www.campbellriverbc.ca/Lists.../Section 5 - Sub-Contractors/Vinyl Sundecking We are not in the phone book nore do we have a website of our own because we never needed to advertise (word of mouth was enough). It is possible for us to purchase 2 144V batteries on our own, that would allow me to send one of them to you if you are still interested but we could still make use of the second one if no one else wants it.

The fact that you won't really need the battery until march also makes me wonder if you really have to be in on this purchace right now. I certainly hope it won't take them 4 months to get one battery to our front door!  so the second round could still get here in time for your project. I could make another round soon after the first if the 144V battery checks out. You can then use a mediator within canada to pay me for the battery if you want. This also gives the option to more easily take legal action against me if you feel you need to have a "plan B" for the possibility that things don't work out.

If anyone has any other questions or concerns, now is the time to voice them, not after money has changed hands, so lets at least keep talking.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

david85 said:


> Rob,
> If DYIguy has concerns about me than that is understandable and if he doens't want to trust me that is his choice and no one else's to make. The only thing I really took issue with was DYIguy's mention that this was some how not in the spirit of what the forum should be. This from some one that has less than 50 posts here and joined last month.
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> My comment of what the spirit of a forum should be was directly related to the intention to make a profit from other members. I stand by this "opinion"... others may not share it. If I missed another post that indicated your intentions to this end, I appologize.


Frankly if someone here, or anywhere, provides a valuable service I see no problem with them making a profit. No one here is required to make a purchase and they are free to do the exact same work that David has done and contact the company themselves. I don't think we need your parenting skills here and it is not your responsibility to watch out for us. Basically you started this on a false premise, that David was hiding the battery manufacturer from us, which was not the case, and you keep trying to defend your position. Should people proceed with caution? Of course, the same goes with any transaction. As has been discussed there are ways to protect both sides involved in a purchase.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

David,

I have been following all your LifePo4 threads with great interest, kudos to you for taking your valuable time to share info with the rest of us, don't let few downers discourage you. 

I was wondering about terms of delivery from China to your door, can you share details? I often see term FOB, but I am not familiar with details of it, never bought stuff from overseas directly. Who selects the sea carrier? Who and how pays for freight? Who picks it up at the destination port and continues ground delivery? What kind of tracking is available? I imagine its not as simple as UPS of Fedex, is it? Do you already know how much delivery will cost you per pack?

The whole idea of group purchase is to save on freight, I doubt you will get better price on actual cells, but since you are in Canada, this complicates options for US based buyers, we'd have to deal with another cross border shipping, customs, etc. If your deal goes thru, I hope we can also organize US based group purchase someday.

Thanks again.


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## mjoconnell (Nov 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I might just order a single 144V battery for myself this time around and continue to post my results. Most of the interest in all of this is with the 144V 160Ah battery because of the price advantage so I might as well put my efforts there.


So I've looked back thru the various threads and posts, and haven't seen my question answered, so please forgive if I missed this:

So the 144V 160AH "battery" with BMS and charger is a "sku" that Seiden wants to source? Just wondering why they are packaging the 40AH modules into a bundle for the 144V 160AH offering. Do they see this as some niche to fill?

I looked around their site, and didn't see any info on the individual Lithium Iron modules in a package of 40AH and 110 x 56 x 165 MM in size, or 4.3 x 2.2 x 6.5 in inches. Is it just not listed?

So 1 160AH "module" would be 4.3 X 8.8 X 6.5 inches? Do I have that correct?

Thanks for all your effort researching these modules.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

mjoconnell said:


> So I've looked back thru the various threads and posts, and haven't seen my question answered, so please forgive if I missed this:
> 
> So the 144V 160AH "battery" with BMS and charger is a "sku" that Seiden wants to source? Just wondering why they are packaging the 40AH modules into a bundle for the 144V 160AH offering. Do they see this as some niche to fill?
> 
> ...


What do you mean by SKU charger? You are right about their website, there isn't much there. I don't know why they prefer 40Ah cells, but maybe they figured it would be easier to mass produce that size instead of stocking several different sizes.

I kinda had to read between the lines to figure that out and eventually, the sales rep confirmed that the 160Ah battery pack is in fact made of 40Ah cells in a series/parallel configuration. I think you could be right on how they are arranged in parallel, but there is a lot of flexibility on how they are actually positioned in the pack. The battery can be taken apart and rearranged to best fit it to the car. I know I'll have to do this anyway.

I still don't know why they are charging a premium for anything above 144V, but since the 144V 160Ah battery is something I can use, I'll probably go with a turn key 144V battery. Later on, it might be possible to just order a pallet load of 40Ah cells and use a DIY BMS if some one here can make one.

The shipping details are not yet confirmed. I'll have to get more info on that, but it will be sent by sea, so should be fairly reasonable even on an individual pack basis. I believe international carriers like DHL are an option, but again, I have to confirm this. So far, I've been trying to nail down the battery model to get the best bang for buck.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The shipping details are not yet confirmed. I'll have to get more info on that, but it will be sent by sea, so should be fairly reasonable even on an individual pack basis. I believe international carriers like DHL are an option, but again, I have to confirm this. So far, I've been trying to nail down the battery model to get the best bang for buck.


You're going to want to avoid DHL and other carriers that do air services.... they charge anywhere from $150-500 a trip... that takes only 4-5 days less than many of the chinese air freights in the $40-100 dollar ranges.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> You're going to want to avoid DHL and other carriers that do air services.... they charge anywhere from $150-500 a trip... that takes only 4-5 days less than many of the chinese air freights in the $40-100 dollar ranges.


These batteries will most likely (almost positive actually) be send by sea. I really don't see much point in having anything other than a test sample sent by air because of the higher cost and I don't think we need the traction packs that soon.

I'll keep you posted.....


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I guess I have been ready for a lithium setup to come along for a while, I just like to wait for a couple sucesses first.

I am curious since 40ahr is the popular size is it possible to get those packs for 72 volt at the same price?

I might upgrade to 144v someday but for now its not something I want to venture into, new controller, new motor (or I need to shave brushes and take it easy on my D$D)

Keep us posted, I have a feeling that once your experience with the batteries is known there will be many onboard, of coarse assuming they don't all blow up 

Cheers
Ryan


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## mjoconnell (Nov 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> What do you mean by SKU charger?


I just meant it seemed based on some of your comments that a 144V battery, BMS and charger were being sold as one item - eg one SKU (inventory management number). I guess mainly because in your test cell the BMS was within the charger.



david85 said:


> I still don't know why they are charging a premium for anything above 144V, but since the 144V 160Ah battery is something I can use, I'll probably go with a turn key 144V battery. Later on, it might be possible to just order a pallet load of 40Ah cells and use a DIY BMS if some one here can make one.


Yeah that was my real question. Why a 144V bundle? Do they think 144V batteries are the sweet spot? or is it because other producers are packaging 144V batteries and they want to be comparable? Like you said, it would be nice to be able to get a pallet of 40Ah cells and a DIY BMS.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Frankly if someone here, or anywhere, provides a valuable service I see no problem with them making a profit. No one here is required to make a purchase and they are free to do the exact same work that David has done and contact the company themselves. I don't think we need your parenting skills here and it is not your responsibility to watch out for us. Basically you started this on a false premise, that David was hiding the battery manufacturer from us, which was not the case, and you keep trying to defend your position. Should people proceed with caution? Of course, the same goes with any transaction. As has been discussed there are ways to protect both sides involved in a purchase.


Ok, this will be my last post on this. Promise! My premise was not a hard one to get to. The only mention of any company in this thread, before I brought it up, was from someone who asked the question directly ...who the company was and what the website was. The question was not answered. Next thing, when was the last time any of you spent multiple thousands of dollars on something that you did not see any printed data, quote, or specs directly from the company you are dealing with? No offence to David, but what is the problem with posting the quote and or the correspondence? How does anyone here know what it actually says? How about that warranty info and those discharge specs???? Its not too hard to post attachments, even I figured it out. Last point... it's not a question of making a profit. My issue is that there was an admitted intention to make a profit without people involved KNOWING! This is not the same thing. When you add it up, and you don't know people directly, ... it raises questions, or at least it should. ^^end rant^^. Sorry for the "parenting". BTW, I did try the website, and also tried to contact them last week. No answer yet. The other companies I contacted all replied within one business day.... perhaps others should try???


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

One advantage of going with this type of configuration (series/parallel) is that if you can supply a different BMS and charger, the same battery could be reconfigured to different voltage. For example, 144V 160Ah could now be rewired to 288 80Ah, or 72V 320Ah.

If you wanted to upgrade to an AC motor later on, you wouldn't have to replace the battery to get the higher voltage, just change the wiring and reuse the same cells. Of course that assumes they don't blow up or wear out. Just thinking out loud now....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

DIYguy said:


> Ok, this will be my last post on this. Promise! My premise was not a hard one to get to. The only mention of any company in this thread, before I brought it up, was from someone who asked the question directly ...who the company was and what the website was. The question was not answered. Next thing, when was the last time any of you spent multiple thousands of dollars on something that you did not see any printed data, quote, or specs directly from the company you are dealing with? No offence to David, but what is the problem with posting the quote and or the correspondence? How does anyone here know what it actually says? How about that warranty info and those discharge specs???? Its not too hard to post attachments, even I figured it out. Last point... it's not a question of making a profit. My issue is that there was an admitted intention to make a profit without people involved KNOWING! This is not the same thing. When you add it up, and you don't know people directly, ... it raises questions, or at least it should. ^^end rant^^. Sorry for the "parenting". BTW, I did try the website, and also tried to contact them last week. No answer yet. The other companies I contacted all replied within one business day.... perhaps others should try???


I've done all I can to explain myself, just because I miss a post doesn't mean I ignored the question. This thread is 100 posts long, I can make mistakes too. But since you bring up new points, I will try and answer..... 

*deep breath* The attachments and battery specs I received from the company, I would have Emailed directly to the person that would have bought the battery before any money had changed hands. They could make it public if they want, but there is a limit to how far we should go in making these numbers and specs public. As some one that has been in business for a while, I can tell you that making too much public can cause a "cooling effect" within companies and they may not be as likely to talk to us in the future. Some info leaking out can be tolerated, but too much could put a potential deal in danger be it this one or others down the line (weather its you or me trying to negotiate a deal). 

What you don't understand is that I have to walk a fine line here, indeed we all do. Weather I make money off this little stunt or not, is besides the point. This company like any other has to protect their own interests, they do that by being selective in who they share information with. I have mentioned there are some pieces of info that even I had to pry from them. This is why going directly to the company may not work for you, but by golly, be my guest if you think you can get them to open up and give you a price.

But if you think that I'm going to post the formal purchase order on the world wide web, you have a lot to learn to say the least. Business is not done that way, and any trust I have earned with this company so far would be gone in no time at all if they caught me doing something like that. Why do you think they won't give me a fixed $/watt hour price rate? think about it....

It would be nice to think we can just do everything for free and spill any sensitive information that we come across, but the world just doesn't work that way, and if I or anyone else were to take that idea to such an extreme, more harm than good would be done in the long term. I'm not prepared to do that.

Any other questions?


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Ok, this will be my last post on this. Promise! My premise was not a hard one to get to. The only mention of any company in this thread, before I brought it up, was from someone who asked the question directly ...who the company was and what the website was. The question was not answered. Next thing, when was the last time any of you spent multiple thousands of dollars on something that you did not see any printed data, quote, or specs directly from the company you are dealing with? No offence to David, but what is the problem with posting the quote and or the correspondence? How does anyone here know what it actually says? How about that warranty info and those discharge specs???? Its not too hard to post attachments, even I figured it out. Last point... it's not a question of making a profit. My issue is that there was an admitted intention to make a profit without people involved KNOWING! This is not the same thing. When you add it up, and you don't know people directly, ... it raises questions, or at least it should. ^^end rant^^. Sorry for the "parenting". BTW, I did try the website, and also tried to contact them last week. No answer yet. The other companies I contacted all replied within one business day.... perhaps others should try???


 
all the information you allude to has been posted in this and other threads.we have a search function in this forum for a reason i am sure.i personally have emailed at least 2 dozen companies for information about their products over the last 7 months,and the only company that responded within 48 hours was zuhai sanchuan( seiden).we are all adults here(i think) and we should be able to take care of our financial dealings on our own.if there is a profit for david85 to make on these ,it will be damn little i can assure you as i have spec'ed these batteries for quite some time myself.if you don't think he should make any profit try doing all the leg work yourself and see if you wouldn't mind making a few bucks!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The company is also listed on Alibaba and does have more info there.

Now for some S***** news.

You all remember the low price of the 144V battery, right?

You remember how I replied back and double checked the price and was told that it was indeed correct? Well it wasn't.

I asked for a formal PI for the 144V battery, and made referrence to the price of the 144V battery that was already mentioned. We were thinking of buying 2 at that price. That price is now described as a "terrible mistake". I am not happy.

I have not replied yet, and might let them sweat it out for a little while. Frankly I need to cool off anyway

Maybe it was an honest mistake, maybe not, I don't know. But I felt it best to pass the info on after I got it. I'm not sure what the next move is at this point. Have to cool off first.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That sounds like the classic "bait and switch", very unfortunate, and frustrating. What price are they quoting you now?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

It's a damb shame we have to deal with these shifty Chinese companies at all  Maybe one day one of them will realise that if they actually bothered to behave like a US or European supplier, they'd clean up against the competition! One can only hope, I hope you can get satisfaction out of them David

Regards

Paul


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

david85 said:


> The company is also listed on Alibaba and does have more info there.
> 
> Now for some S***** news.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear the bad news David.
Could be a blessing in disguise though. If they use these types of tactics, it's also possible they do the old 'switcharoo' on the batteries too, as in send you a great battery to test, then send you underspecced seconds when you place the actual order.
Good luck to you anyway however you proceed.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

any new news on this mate?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Technologic said:


> any new news on this mate?


I got another message yesterday where she asked if I got the correcded PO because I didn't reply immediately, and she apologized for the mistake. I replied saying how important tust is and with the price being hiked, its not likely that anyone here would want to buy now.

Got another reply yet again apologizing for the mistake and giving me assurance that she told me as soon as she found out. At least She told me BEFORE money was sent.....

She is now suggesting to order just a single 144V 160Ah battery this time around.

The corrected price for the 144V battery with charger and BMS is a hair under $13000 (just a slight difference there!)

Feels almost like being cheated out of a lottery ticket, and I never even play, lol. ~$0.35/wr would have been pretty sweet..... So the price per wh seems to be pretty steady across the board with it being around $0.50/wh with everything included, and closer to $0.46 for only the raw cells.

I also asked for confirmation of the weight of the battery, since the 160Ah wh/kg is much higher than my sample. This little mix up calls into question anything that seems out of the ordinary.

Oh, and the shipping cost was a little over $300 per to the port of vancouver. I would then have to pick up the battery myself, or arrange a carrier to do deliver it to my door. We normally have aluminum stock material delivered that way, so it wouldn't be hard to arrange (except the distributor in vancouver makes the arrangements normally in the case of aluminum).

That shipping cost is actually less than what it cost to have the sample sent by air. I will still have to pay tax and brokerage when it arrives.

Still not sure if its worth buying.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

david85 said:


> the price per wh seems to be pretty steady across the board with it being around $0.50/wh with everything included, and closer to $0.46 for only the raw cells.
> ...
> Still not sure if its worth buying.


Isn't that about what Thundersky is? Unless these cells perform better than Thundersky why bother?


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Still not sure if its worth buying.


At 50 cent/wh I wouldn't consider it that great of a bargain that any expediency is needed.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The only reason I would have to try and be quick about any purchase is to get my car driving before summer when construction picks up again and time gets tight again. I also liked the wide range of batteries that this company offered, and not just LiFePO4. They actually carry NiFe batteries as well as flooded NiCads and the older LiPo to list a few (look them up on alibaba to see). Having a formal arrangement with them might have been worth having.

Can thundersky batteries really be had for the $0.50 range? they seem to be charging more lately now that they have a name for themselves. They are also heavily subsidized by the chinese government and are currently the worlds largest builder of the LiFePO4 battery type. I'd rather not have to pay a premium just for a brand.

The problem with these battery companies is that they are still competing against other batteries, and not against oil which is the real prize.

How far are we from having a local BMS and charger for these batteries? That would be one way to get below the $0.50/wh mark. 
I'm still waiting on confimration of the energy density.

In the mean time I'm still looking at other suppliers as usual....


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

david85 said:


> In the mean time I'm still looking at other suppliers as usual....


Have you given up on Headway?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

saab96 said:


> Have you given up on Headway?


 
I'm not giving up on anything yet.
Don't remember Headway. Was this the battery that JRP3 was looking into? I remember him mentioning he was looking into high C spiral wound cells of some sort. They are also listed on alibaba, might be worth looking into.

I've generally preferred to look for prismatic cells, but beggars can't be choosers.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Oh wait - I think it was joeseph3354 that was testing samples. Got mixed up.

OK, heres where I stand with the purchase. The energy density of the 160Ah was also a mistake and once again, I have recieved corrected information. The energy density can be pegged at 85-90 Wh/Kg across the board and the price is $0.46 before BMS and charger. I think its safe to say the idea of a group buy is not a good idea right now. In all honesty, I get the feeling the sales rep is a newbie and not actually trying to rip anyone off but still I think its best to be more cautious. The company itself does seem to be real though.

I still have a sample that passed all of my testing and even delivered nearly 210 Ah of reserve even though it was only rated at 200Ah. I may still buy the 144V 200Ah since I was prepaired to pay that price anyway but I think its best that I "go it alone", so to speak. 

What I have also learned is that all of the major battery companies in china seem have the same national and international certifications. In other words, they are all tested to the same standards.

I'm waiting on the formal order form for the 144V 200Ah battery at the moment, wonder what supprises there will be this time


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

david85,sorry to hear of your troubles.yes i had been interested in headway batteries however,after several requests for an invoice to victoria i gave up on that idea.also,i have heard a few negative comments about the screw terminal snapping off of the cylindrical cells that i had been interested in.currently i am involved with the most time consuming test for the cylindrical cells that i recieved from zuhai,self discharge testing!  
just neeed to know how long these things can sit around doing nothing and still do their job! 

good luck with your purchase,i hope you get what you want.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Oh wait - I think it was joeseph3354 that was testing samples. Got mixed up.


So I guess I can stop looking around for those batteries that I don't remember buying


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> So I guess I can stop looking around for those batteries that I don't remember buying


Yeah, no need to pannic on that one lol.

Have you guys looked at this yet?
http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/LiFePO4.php

Something I noticed is that the spiral wound cells are generally twice the price even if they come from the far east. If I were to get serious about them, I would probably buy a resistance wielder and save a little on the price per cell by getting the cells without the bolt stem termnals. 10-30C is certainly impressive, but it beggs the question of where you could find a motor/controller setup that could take advantage of all that power now that zilla is off the market. As it stands, the 200Ah battery would also push a warp 9" to its constant rating limit at 1C and well beyond any affordable setup at 5C. 

(28.8 kw @ 1C and 144kw @ 5C, but the curtis controller would limit at 500amps so 72 kw will probably be the limit)

I guess you could go with spiral cells to get away with a smaller pack, but since it would end up costing at least as much as a larger prismatic, it just seems kinda pointless unless you wanted to drag race it.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

The safe lithium chemistries vary a lot but people tend to fixate only on pricing and fool themselves that the quality will always be the same. Then they find out later on that the cells they got have no power or they get too hot when stressed or they quickly deteriorate. This is why so many of us have a wait and see attitude. We want to hear consistent success stories.

To me, the most promising battery technology yet is Toshiba SCIB, which is basically another take on Altair Nanosafes but with some serious volume rampup in the works. If it's actually possible to get these batteries for EVs, then it would probably work well. With the first gen batteries they are using for ebokes, you'd get lower range than LifePo4, but with much longer lifecycles so if the pack cost were the same, the cost to drive per mile would be better.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well, its a risk that I can afford to take, so it looks like a single battery order is still on. I still have the tests I did, and the battery passed all of them. If it holds up it will be worth it. The LiFePO4 battery is about to turn 6 years old. If there was a major fault in the design, I think we would have heard about it by now. There are several thundersky powered conversions in the works all over the world at the moment, so you should get to see some independant data fairly soon. Thundersky is also trying to market all electric transit busses, so thats another thing to keep an eye out for.

So far this is what I can figure about the quality/performance of the chinese made LiFePO4s:

All the LiFePO4 batteries made in china are tested to the same national standards (you can ask to see them or they will be listed), and many of those standards are in fact international and recognized in countries like the USA and canada. Thundersky gets the slightly higher C rating because they strap the cells to control swelling. ZH simply rates the constant C slighty lower instead. cylindrical cells have a round metal case that can naturally withstand much more pressure than a square ABS plastic case, so they consistently get the higher C ratings than the prismatics, but at a higher cost.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

David
As a businessman I would not buy them from the company who baited me and I would let them know that we here on the forum will buy from other companies as well.
Roy


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

David
There is another group on these forums trying to purchase those batteries.
Was the name of the company which baited you HiPower?
I copied a portion of their latest post below.
Roy

Here is the latest that I have on battery pricing information.

IMHO, there are only two manufacturers of Lithium LiFePo4 prismatic cells (the batteries that look like blocks): Hipower and Thundersky. I have been in contact with both for some time and would like to publish my current pricing information. The pricing is not as good as other rumors that I've heard, but it's a starting point for negotiations.... meaning: dont pay more than this.

HiPower (chinabatteries.net) provided pricing at $1.35/Ah for their 160 Ah cells that I think are capable of 2C continuous discharge: 
HOw are you?Have you recieved my email ?We treasure to cooperate with you,so i have taken some action to push our cooperation. One good news is ,sir ,if you place the order to us now ,we will give you a better price *1.35 USD/AH ,for the price of one 3.2v160ah cell will be 216USD*.A 144V160AH pack will be 10368USD. 


You see,we are producing the larger voltage pack such as 96v,144v,240v,288v,312v and 375v pack in a massed way.If you place order now ,you will get the pack very soon,much quickly than usual.​


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> David
> There is another group on these forums trying to purchase those batteries.
> Was the name of the company which baited you HiPower?


No, seiden, http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/product_1.asp?yid=53


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I wouldn't describe what happened to me as a bait and switch. The very first numbers that I recieved were indeed correct, pricing in the $0.50/wh and energy density slightly below 90 wh/kg. I was already interested and there was no need to "sweeten the deal". The mistake happened when I asked for pricing on several other batteries and only one of them turned out to be cheaper.

I now have a formal order form in hand for the 200Ah 144V battery that I originally asked for. The price is the same as it was originally.

There are precautions that we will take however, and our bank has international services that we will use for this purchase.


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

David,

Unfortunate news re the price for the 144 V x 160Ah pack. I had been expecting something like this to happen. The search or wait for sub $.40 quality lithium continues.

Good luck with your pack purchase. Please keep us informed.

Rob


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> David
> There is another group on these forums trying to purchase those batteries.
> Was the name of the company which baited you HiPower?
> I copied a portion of their latest post below.
> ...


Voltswagen,

With the recent fallout of David's deal for 160 Ah cells, I'm interested in what HiPower have to offer. What additional information do you have on these cells (charge/discharge rates, life cycles, density, dimensions...)? Do you think a larger volume would reduce the quoted price significantly? What about the track record of the company and product?

Thanks for posting your communication with the company. I found their site, but my Mandarin/Cantonese/?? is not what it might be. Do they have an English link?

Rob


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

RKM
A person named HardyM on this Forum has been in communication with them. I copied part of his post in my note to David and asked HardyM if the price included such things as shipping, BMS and charger. I also asked if he promised them an order of any quantity to get that price.
I am waiting on his response.
Roy


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I did get a price from Hypower a while ago and it was on par with what I got from sieden. Only real difference was the lower peak C rating which was 2C instead of 5C.

The battery I priced out came with aluminum cases, BMS and charger and was nearly $20 000 USD with everything included. Cells alone came to $0.44/wh. It wasn't good enough for me to continue the conversation so I just let it go.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Pls, can anybody with ongoing communication with Thundersky ask as to whether 20Ah cells in their LFP (LiFePO4) series actually exist, or is it special order only or not possible at all? There are many rumors about it on "the internets"..


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## loucollins (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm intersted in the lithium battery buy....thanks


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

loucollins said:


> I'm intersted in the lithium battery buy....thanks


Sorry but the group buy is canceled at least for this round. Its too big a risk and I'm not willing to organise such a risky purchase right now that involves other people's money. If the battery that I ordered for my own car ends up being good, then I might help organize a group buy later on but I can't commit to anything yet.

I'm hoping to have the car on the road by spring 2009 and I will keep the forum updated on the progress and performance.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> Pls, can anybody with ongoing communication with Thundersky ask as to whether 20Ah cells in their LFP (LiFePO4) series actually exist, or is it special order only or not possible at all? There are many rumors about it on "the internets"..


They don't show them on their website or on everspring.net.


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## genawin (Oct 1, 2008)

Just thought i should up date on the position i'm in with Seiden / China battery center , i ordered a 24 cell 100ah pack with charger/bms back in June and they recently arrived , the first time i tried to charge there was a "pop" followed by a "genie" (smoke) from the charger and it blew the house fuse , i contacted the factory and they asked for a picture of the connections(see atached) ,i returned the picture and the response was that i had connected the charger with the wrong polarity, this was obviously not the case so i asked them to explain but they have not responded to my last 3 emails!!
could i ask you David if you have a reliable contact that i could try emailing ?


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## chamilun (Jun 17, 2008)

is it possible to remove all of the 10 guage wiring, verify + and - terminal on each cell, make 100% certain your series connections are correct, and do a quick test charge just to see if there is no short. something tells me it has to do with the BMS system.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

*Note to administrator(s):*

*Could we perhaps get this reorganized into a separate battery troubleshooting thread?*

Hi genawin, welcome to the forum.

Is that the photo that is supposed to show the battery connections? I can see a missing connection there. The polarity for the BMS also has to be connected properly and in the correct sequence (can't see in the photo how you connected the BMS wires).

There have been cases where I had to wait up to 3 days before I got a reply to some of my Emails, but overall, the response time was good.

This is the contact that I have been dealing with so far. Her name is Emily Cao:

[email protected]

Just to warn you, there may be a bit of a language barrier. I did have some difficulty communicating with Emily on some ocasions, but we were able to work through it.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

Genawin,

Could you describe their BMS a little? I’m curious about what functions they include and how they designed it.

Thanks,
Larry


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

Group buy is ON... check out www.evpst.com for more info.
I am bringing in a container ( the only way to do it )
These cells offer better C rate and material quality than a Tsky cell, but may not be cheaper. 
Remember, the higher the C-rate, the less Ah needed to prevent voltage sag.

Pricing depends on quantity, so, the more, the better.
Balancing chargers also available.
Please state whether, loose cells, OR, packs are wanted.

If you must have the absolute cheapest, get a thundersky.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

So how much are thier 120Ah cells? The sizing of these is very nice, I must admit.

I also admire your enthusiasm, but why are you so sure these are of better quality than thundersky? do you have any real world experience of these cells? what warranty/back up are the company offering you? etc...

Regards

Paul


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

Anyone familiar w this industry knows the QC at Tsky and the materials used.
I will post testing results of the 55Ah cell here soon from my lab.
6 month warranty
in my opinion, Tsky is like a box of chocolates, you can make your own judgements. This is an offer, not a comparison thread. You can contact evpst for detailed info if u like.
120Ah size is in the $330 range.
remember, shipping is a LARGE part of final costs


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Shipping cost??

I was quoted about $300 for shipping to the nearest seaport for my 144V 200Ah battery. I wouldn't call that very large considering the battery will be $16000USD.

A whole container is supposed to be around $3000 to fill.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

Does anyone have any theories about why these battery companies don’t have distributors in America? Thunder Sky’s web site talks about them having a capacity to make 150,000,000 Ah worth the batteries in 2006 with a plan back then to increase to 1,500,000,000Ah a year. Where are they selling millions of batteries without any distributors? In round unscientific numbers say they make one million batteries a year. A pretty decent EV will take less than 50 of them. Is there some manufacturer making twenty thousand electric cars a year and selling them in some out of the way place where no one ever heard of them? Does China have a plan to suddenly turn off the oil spigot? Is The Brain planing to store all of the energy in the world and hold it hostage?

Seriously, what other industries use high capacity batteries and why aren’t they more available over the counter?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the pricing, I'm not suggesting this is a comparison thread, or that thundersky is a better/worse product, but we get chinese reps on here all the time telling us how thier battery is the best and all the others are crap. We all want a reliable supplier of lifepo4, but if you expect to fill a container for a bulk purchase, you are going to need to provide this ev community with hard facts as to why you think this supplier is better than others etc. Referring us to the rep. for this company isn't going to help, as we all know chinese reps. will usually tell you anything to make a sale!

You are already at a disadvantage with a 6 month warranty, buy thundersky via the right dealer and we can get a reliable 12 month warranty now.. and the Australians at least seem to be doing quite well with the latest thundersky lifepo4 product in lots of conversions.

As I've already stated, I have no particular love for thundersky, they are just the most well known at present, so please don't get all defensive, I, like many others just want a good product, so we do need to see results. May I also suggest that if possible you test the 120Ah cells as these are much more likely to be of interest to most here than the 55Ah cells which can't run anything bigger than ebikes.

That said, I look forward to whatever information you can provide us on these cells.

Regards

Paul


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

david85 said:


> Shipping cost??
> 
> A whole container is supposed to be around $3000 to fill.


That is about right for shipping costs. When I made the move to Belgium it was just under $3500 for a 40 foot container (surprisingly only $250 extra than a 20ft container) Be sure that your costs for the container include things like insurance, packing and handling charges, along with the costs of paperwork and the delivery agents fee's. A "door to door" quote is the best, so you have no surprise costs. Also are the import taxes included? is there an estimate?

So you are going to need 10 or more orders to make it worth use of a whole container. You can also try crate shipping it or sharing the container.

Also, what are the costs to ship to each person once you receive the cells? that has to be figured into the cost.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just to be clear, I am not actually attempting to fill a container at this point lol. I'm not very close to the seaport that its coming to, so I figure it could be another $300 to have it trucked to my door on a pallet.


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

OK, I can check a 120Ah cell
Anybody offering 12 months for TS cells may not be around to make good, 
"sayin's one thing, deliverin's another" ( high plains drifter, C. Eastwood !)
Since i am already bringin in a 1/2 full container, I only need to fill 1/2.
I can bring it to either L A or Jacksonville port, depending how many people are closer to what coast. Then add the ground shipping from there. To be charged at that time - fedex ground -
Companies dont have distributors in usa, because no usa person will be do it if the china factory is going to sell to every yahoo who emails them directly.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

FalconEV, may I ask where you are located?


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

http://www.casadelgato.com/ThunderSky/


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

FalconEV said:


> http://www.casadelgato.com/ThunderSky/


As I understand it, those are the cobalt cells that thundersky has since discontinued.


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> OK, I can check a 120Ah cell
> Anybody offering 12 months for TS cells may not be around to make good,
> "sayin's one thing, deliverin's another"



Some of those companies you are insulting have been around a lot longer than you have been on the forum and there is less risk buying from those existing and well established local EV companies then participating in a group buy with an individual whose credentials and past history is unknown, let alone a battery you are importing with no known proven specs.


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm in tallahassee FL
this offer good for 2 weeks, then the container must ship
easily offended need not apply
just a biz offer
I will be competing w TS to supply large format cells,
Like i said before; If u prefer TS, go buy some.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is a US based manufacturer of TS cells:
http://www.internationalbatteryinc.com/
Not sure of their prices but it takes away the quality control and warranty issues. They are located in PA and NJ.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Hey thanks JRP3
I just emailed them for a price quote on their 160ah battery.
Wow! They are in Oakland, NJ....about an hours drive from me in Freehold.
That would solve the delivery issures. 
I didn't see anything on their website which indicating that they are a dealer for Thundersky....maybe I missed it. It appears they manufacture their own. 
Anyway their 160ah battery is rated at 4.25v.......assuming my 120v system I asked for a quote on a 30 pack.
I'll let everyone know when I hear back from them. 
Roy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> I didn't see anything on their website which indicating that they are a dealer for Thundersky....maybe I missed it. It appears they manufacture their own.


 I believe they license TS technology and manufacture according to their design, though I'm not positive. TS used to list them as a partner, don't know if they still do.


> Anyway their 160ah battery is rated at 4.25v.......assuming my 120v system I asked for a quote on a 30 pack.
> I'll let everyone know when I hear back from them.
> Roy


4.25 is max, 3.2 nominal, so you'd want 38 batteries for a 120 volt nominal system.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was thinking of contacting them as well but I'll see what you find out. You might ask if they offer a BMS since they mention the need for one. You also might mention that you are a member of a 4000+ member forum who are desperate for a reasonably priced, reliable battery


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## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

yes, interesting
I also requested more info
1/2 C rate continuous ???


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

JrP3
I did ask about a BMS and Charger. I thought about asking for a volume discount but the businessman in me decided to delay that until I see their single order price.....then.....ask for the volume discount. I'll let you know.
Roy


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> yes, interesting
> I also requested more info
> 1/2 C rate continuous ???


Hmmm, that's pretty crappy 
If accurate, these are way better http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm



> The 100 Amp/Hr Batteries have a C3 Continuous Rating of 300 Amps and a Peak of up to C11 or 1100 amps.
> The 200 Amp/Hr Batteries have a C3 Continuous Rating of 600 Amps and a Peak of up to C11 or 2200 Amps


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Hmmm, that's pretty crappy
> If accurate, these are way better http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm


Sorry, but I call bullshit on beeps.com's claim of 11C peak. No prismatic cell can do that yet. 3C is in line with thundersky's claims but still thats a little optimistic unless you strap the cells to prevent swelling.

Mine are rated at 1C constant and 5C peak. I've tested up to 3C peak with no problems, not been able to test the 1C constant though.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

You can also check out Everspring. I don't know anything about them, but at least they post a current price list, 8/7/08. Their specs look good.
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Everspring are a dealer of thundersky batts, you pay them a premium of about 10% over what you can negotiate from Thundersky directly, but apparantly if you get problems they honour the 12 month warranty without the hassle you have trying to claim directly from the manufacturer.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

Call me a wimp, paying 10% to deal with a company in English not having to figure out how to have the batteries shipped by sea, and Knowing my costs up front seem worth it. This whole string has been a demonstration of the difficulties in dealing with the manufacturer directly. Whether it was language, ethics or just a lack of training in the sales force the story kept changing. I’m not ready to buy but if I were I’d have to weigh the pro’s and con’s of saving money by cutting out the middleman vs. paying the middleman to do the dirty work.

*Larry*


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Sorry, but I call bullshit on beeps.com's claim of 11C peak. No prismatic cell can do that yet. 3C is in line with thundersky's claims but still thats a little optimistic unless you strap the cells to prevent swelling.
> 
> Mine are rated at 1C constant and 5C peak. I've tested up to 3C peak with no problems, not been able to test the 1C constant though.


At least they back up their claims with a 3 year warranty, so if they don't perform at that rate you do have some recourse:


> When using the recommended Monitoring Systems we offer a 3 year Warranty. (as long as the Continuous and Peak Current draws are maintained)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Rook said:


> Call me a wimp, paying 10% to deal with a company in English not having to figure out how to have the batteries shipped by sea, and Knowing my costs up front seem worth it. This whole string has been a demonstration of the difficulties in dealing with the manufacturer directly. Whether it was language, ethics or just a lack of training in the sales force the story kept changing. I’m not ready to buy but if I were I’d have to weigh the pro’s and con’s of saving money by cutting out the middleman vs. paying the middleman to do the dirty work.
> 
> *Larry*


Everspring is not located in the US. They will still be shipping to you overseas from China.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2008)

Like I said, I don't know anything about Everspring. Let's just say it would be nice if I could order quality high capacity LiFePo batteries at a competitive price from Amazon.com.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

According to Thundersky's website they only have one official supplier here: www.elitepowersolutions.com

I don't know much about lifepo4 so I couldn't tell you whether their prices are good or not but at least you would be dealing with a US company.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unfortunately they seem to only carry the smaller cells, with 60AH being the largest. International battery is an actual manufacturer of TS cells and has larger sizes.
http://www.thunder-sky.com/Base_en.asp


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some real world experience with TS cells to keep an eye on:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td20572956


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Some real world experience with TS cells to keep an eye on:
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td20572956


Good to know. I am 80% confident in thundersky as of right now and I still have yet to hear of a failed LFP battery. I think they will be a vable option in the years ahead.

Something to remember about Beeps.com is that they worked closely with lionEV and the same documentation for LiFePO4 batteries could be found on both websites. Both in fact stated that BMS was not required if the C rates were 3C or less. I think this is not a good way to deal with the battery even if they are far more forgiving than the older LiCoO2 chemistry. I could be wrong and maybe my battery supplier has derated my battery to keep me from blowing it up if I do something stupid.

As for the warranty, I remember when LionEV still had info online about their warranty. Basically, they offered a lifetime warranty if BMS was employed. But here's the fine print: the battery is only considered "failed" if it does not deliver at least 50% of rated capacity. I would be upset with even 5% below rated capacity (my sample delivered 5% OVER rated capacity). There may be a warranty period of 3 years, but what does it actually cover?

For all of those reasons, I remain cautious of beebs.com and their lifepo4 batteries. However I would much feel better if some one were to chime in with first hand experience with their "lightning bolt" batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think TexomaEV was working with the LionEV cells and found that even at the lower C rates they still needed balancing. Might be in this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7032&highlight=lionev


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## cyberbillp (Dec 5, 2008)

Rook said:


> Does anyone have any theories about why these battery companies don’t have distributors in America? Thunder Sky’s web site talks about them having a capacity to make 150,000,000 Ah worth the batteries in 2006 with a plan back then to increase to 1,500,000,000Ah a year. Where are they selling millions of batteries without any distributors? In round unscientific numbers say they make one million batteries a year. A pretty decent EV will take less than 50 of them. Is there some manufacturer making twenty thousand electric cars a year and selling them in some out of the way place where no one ever heard of them? Does China have a plan to suddenly turn off the oil spigot? Is The Brain planing to store all of the energy in the world and hold it hostage?
> 
> Seriously, what other industries use high capacity batteries and why aren’t they more available over the counter?


 
Hey Rock, looks like you live right down the street almost. 

Anyways, I can think of three things that would use that many batteries. 
Cell Phones
Laptops
Scooters

Add all those devices together and there's got to be billions of them sold each year. I'd suspect these companies have been selling cell phone batteries for quite awhile and see the EV end user market as being HUGE in the future. 

In the US we think about turning a profit in 90 days, where in Asia, they think about where they want to be in 10 years, so this is a strategic move for them. I'd also suspect these companies are used to being subcontractors for International Mega-Corps like Panasonic or Sanyo. 

When you think about it, a car like the Tesla uses as many batteries as almost 100,000 cell phones, so you can see why they want to get in on it. 

Building a 100 cars probably uses as much as a one month manufacturing supply of iPhone batteries (I'm sure someone will politely correct these numbers for me  ) so imagine their thinking. They're just a manufacturing facility, with a product that suddenly has a new market with huge demand beyond their wildest dreams. But the people they've traditionally sold to have no interest or ability to deliver product for this new application. 

So to establish and position themselves for where they want to be 10 years from now, they are selling direct. 

Or at least that is my wild a$$ed guess after a couple of minutes thinking about it. (so feel free to correct me, because this is pure speculation) 

I'd suggest that anyone who wants to be millionaire sets up a US dealership now. ha-ha


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Rook said:


> Does anyone have any theories about why these battery companies don’t have distributors in America?
> 
> These battery companies do have distributors in the U.S.
> Here is one distributor for TS:
> ...


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Internationalbattery are not a distributor for thundersky!! They are a manufacturer. They build thier own cells in the US under licence from Thundersky. 

To differentiate themselves and thier US produced cells, they use a different coloured plastic for the case! Don't know if that is where the differences stop?

I'd love to know how the pricing stacks up against the Chinese TS product though, wasn't someone on here asking for a quote? any news anyone?

Paul


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cyberbillp said:


> When you think about it, a car like the Tesla uses as many batteries as almost 100,000 cell phones, so you can see why they want to get in on it.
> 
> Building a 100 cars probably uses as much as a one month manufacturing supply of iPhone batteries (I'm sure someone will politely correct these numbers for me  ) so imagine their thinking.


Ok, the Tesla uses about 6500 batteries in each car, and they are not cell phone batteries. It's a larger format bigger than a AA battery. They make them work for the Tesla but it's not the ideal way to build a pack out of so many small cells, it takes a lot of management to make them work. Ideally we'll have larger cells someday that can perform as well or better than the Tesla pack.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Favguy
I spoke with International Battery today. You are correct they are not a distributor for TS....they manufacture their own under the TS license.
My bad.
And....they will *not* sell batteries to any individual.....OEM Manufacturers only. 
They suggested contacting Valence in Austin, TX but looking over their website it appears they only deal with Corporations also.
And so the quest continues.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Typical f%#&ing US Corporate bullcrap  . And then we wonder why economy is bad and jobs and money flow overseas. Because our own local businesses are afraid or unwilling to deal with customers, warranties, lawsuits, etc.

Its so sad that over 10K of my money will go to support Chinese economy instead of US, knowing that some bastard in New Jersey decided that I'm not good enough for his precious product.

ARRRGGGG.....


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Dimitri

*DITTO!*


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## Taztech (Dec 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Unfortunately they seem to only carry the smaller cells, with 60AH being the largest. International battery is an actual manufacturer of TS cells and has larger sizes.
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/Base_en.asp


Has any one asked for a price quote in quantity from elite power solutions? 

I realize that they only have 60 Ah but put them in parallel and you would have 120Ah for just $204. Just slightly more than what beepscom wants for 100Ah cells $199.

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=31 

Just asking


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Problem is you end up with twice as many connections, and twice as many cells to monitor and balance, so the price benefit is gone. Also, if they are to be believed, the Beeps cells have a much higher C rate.


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