# Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Jack, 

That just plain rocks. I got a big grin just reading about it.
Congratulations on a job superbly done. That is the sweetest thing I've seen
in awhile. I bet that grin must be bustin a mile wide for you. I still want
to do a conversion on either an old fully restored 15 Window VW Bus or
Porsche 550 Spyder Replica. 

like this: http://www.ohler.com/ev/spyder/ It is one of my favorite
conversions until now. Yours is now included in my list. 


I am glad you like your Kelly and that it is working properly. I have a low
voltage SepEx factory modified Kelly for one of my motors. It works just
fine. I have seen that site where you build your battery monitor for each
battery in the system. I plan on building them for my EV. I like the idea of
on demand updates so I can better monitor the system. Wish I could do that
with lithium but I am not yet able to afford them. Nor am I completely sold
on them. I like NiMH as the batteries to use but that may change. 

Anyway that rocks and I will be saving your photos and info for my
information and inspiration. I currently have an old 64 VW Ghia converted
and love it but it's not as nice as yours. I still use lead. 

Pete : )
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Jack,

Congrats on the project. Like Peter and yourself, I am also restoring a
classic: a '72 VW Ghia coupe. I am building the LED bargraphs that you
mentioned. I've finished 3 of 12, and can't seem to find the time to make
the remaining ones, but that's seems to be a common problem on EV projects!
Your Warp9 seems to have fit into the porche better than it does in the
Ghia, the backshaft caused us some headache.
I'm glad the Kelly has worked out for you. I went with Logisystems 1000A
144V-156V model... I was lured in by the 4 week delivery time (I had wanted
a Zilla but did too much 'research' and not enough ordering! )...
Unfortunately, 4 weeks has now turned into 4 MONTHS, and still no controller
in site!

The EVision should be a great addition to your instrumentation. Good luck
with the tach, and the rest of the project(s).

-Nick




> gottdi <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Jack,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Nick:

I got the Kelly controller in 3 days. I just ordered another one yesterday
and while it isn't here yet, it has shipped and I have a tracking number. 
You're experiencing the same problem I had with the Curtiss. It seems
endemic to EV land. They have the greatest stuff, you just can't have it
for a few months....

The back shaft on the Warp9 clears the rear support bar by about 1/2 inch. 
It was a little difficult to work it in over the pilot shaft. I DON'T want
to pull this motor. I can't even put the neat little magnetic pickup I had
for the end. 



Jack,

Congrats on the project. Like Peter and yourself, I am also restoring a
classic: a '72 VW Ghia coupe. I am building the LED bargraphs that you
mentioned. I've finished 3 of 12, and can't seem to find the time to make
the remaining ones, but that's seems to be a common problem on EV projects!
Your Warp9 seems to have fit into the porche better than it does in the
Ghia, the backshaft caused us some headache.
I'm glad the Kelly has worked out for you. I went with Logisystems 1000A
144V-156V model... I was lured in by the 4 week delivery time (I had wanted
a Zilla but did too much 'research' and not enough ordering! )...
Unfortunately, 4 weeks has now turned into 4 MONTHS, and still no controller
in site!

The EVision should be a great addition to your instrumentation. Good luck
with the tach, and the rest of the project(s).

-Nick


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Wonderfull project and description! I LOVE it!



> Jack Rickard wrote:"As best I can tell, it is all about pressing the
> accelerator."
> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*



> On 4 Jan 2009 at 11:24, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > As best I can tell, it is all about pressing the accelerator. When you add
> > metal to an EV, it makes little noise, but the noise it makes is most
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*



> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > Battery pack is two strings of 32 Thundersky LiFePo4 90Ah cells. Nominally
> > 108 volts at 180 Ah for 19440kWhr. Lesson learned here. We were going to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 11:38 +1300, Steve West wrote:

> I've had some luck by:
> 
> 1. Turn on Brusa (starts charging)
> 2. Choose connect from the menu (stops charging, software says 
> connection failed)
> 3. Turn off Brusa
> 4. Turn on Brusa, and a fraction of a second later, press "retry"
> 5. Failed? Go to 3.
> 
> This seem to work, maybe 1 time in 5.

I know it's not a serial port or cable issue as the monitor available
via a terminal program works first time every time. I've talked with a
guy from Brusa (here on holiday) and he says their charger department
would be keen for a bug report. We haven't really had the need to make
one since the race car isn't running yet. 

I'm not sure what it is about electric vehicle software, but I'm yet to
be impressed by anything I've used. The only exception being looking
over your shoulder at the "bulletin board system" inside the Zilla. That
looks excellent.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

<
I noticed that you've got the cells in 12v blocks with the Thunder Sky
straps and end plates. Do you have anything holding them down? It looks
like there is a bit of slop between each block. If the block are moving
around I would expect problems with the link between each block. If
they're 4 or so thin copper strips stacked up, then the links themselves
might take the movement, but I'd be worried by the cell terminal posts.
Especially the post seals.

Also, in an accident, if your boxes have metal covers, you're going to
have some short circuit issues.

The batteries are held in aluminum boxes. The box sides come up to nearly
the top of the batteries. The boxes are actually fastened to the frame. 
They don't move at all, and the batteries are pretty snugly fitted within
them. There isn't any movement. The straps and plates seem to cause quite
a bit of interference with the box and between the batteries - enough to
keep them solidly in place.

I do not have metal covers. I would like to. But currently we use pieces
of rubber pickup truck liner and simply lay them over the tops of the
batteries.



Why are you wiring the cells in two series strings, rather than buddy
pairs? (ie two cells wired in parallel and then 36 of these groups in
series)

I wind up having to parallel the 90Ahs to get 180Ah. The size granularity
of the 160 Ah batteries just wouldn't allow proper fitting of the batteries
in the spaces available.

The two strings each have a separate cutoff switch wired into the middle of
the battery string. For maintenance and testing purposes, this allows me to
use either string to operate systems or run the car. With both on, one pack
basically charges the other until they are roughly in balance. I'm not
entirely happy with the situation, but it has some advantages. Balance
would probably be better served as you describe - but the connections would
be a little more bird nesty.



Don't try and measure the voltage for a state of charge measurement.
After a rest, mine sit at about 119v (3.3v/cell) from 2Ah through 20Ah
below my "zero" point and likely less than 50% SOC.

Voltage is about my only option at the moment. I've done quite a bit of
bench testing with a resistive load bank I built and I think voltage is a
pretty good indicator. Of course, the LiFEPo4s have a very flat discharge
curve, but it is quite meaningful.


Looking at your dash, I don't see anywhere that would make sense to put
the EVision. My dashboard also has three clocks in it, I took the
victorian fuel and temperature mechanism out and installed the EVision,
it came up really nicely. See
http://carrott.org/blog/archives/82-EVision-Display-Installation.html

That's a beautiful installation of the Evision dial on your dash. I'm quite
envious. 
Even though it's a replica, I'm a bit conscious of the Porsche look. If you
notice from the photos, there isn't a clue on the exterior that the car is
converted to electric. The three gauges on the dash are kind of a Porsche
thing and I want to retain them. We have the temperature gage working with
a sender retapped for the lifting ring hole in the motor. It turns out that
both the VW engine and the Netgain overtemp at about the same 120C level.

I used the OIL warning light with the accessory contacts of the two
Kilovacs. When I turn the key, it lights to indicate that both contactors
actually closed. I want to change this from red to green.

For EV instrumentation, my plan is to make a copper console panel that will
run from the radio down to the tunnel under the dash. I can mount the bar
graph LEDs and the Evision there.

But keeping it original looking and adding gauges is another one of these
tradeoff areas where I can't precisely win, I can only lose artfully. Your
dash installation of the EVISION is spectacular.


Jack RIckard
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

<
I noticed that you've got the cells in 12v blocks with the Thunder Sky
straps and end plates. Do you have anything holding them down? It looks
like there is a bit of slop between each block. If the block are moving
around I would expect problems with the link between each block. If
they're 4 or so thin copper strips stacked up, then the links themselves
might take the movement, but I'd be worried by the cell terminal posts.
Especially the post seals.

Also, in an accident, if your boxes have metal covers, you're going to
have some short circuit issues.

The batteries are held in aluminum boxes. The box sides come up to nearly
the top of the batteries. The boxes are actually fastened to the frame. 
They don't move at all, and the batteries are pretty snugly fitted within
them. There isn't any movement. The straps and plates seem to cause quite
a bit of interference with the box and between the batteries - enough to
keep them solidly in place.

I do not have metal covers. I would like to. But currently we use pieces
of rubber pickup truck liner and simply lay them over the tops of the
batteries.



Why are you wiring the cells in two series strings, rather than buddy
pairs? (ie two cells wired in parallel and then 36 of these groups in
series)

I wind up having to parallel the 90Ahs to get 180Ah. The size granularity
of the 160 Ah batteries just wouldn't allow proper fitting of the batteries
in the spaces available.

The two strings each have a separate cutoff switch wired into the middle of
the battery string. For maintenance and testing purposes, this allows me to
use either string to operate systems or run the car. With both on, one pack
basically charges the other until they are roughly in balance. I'm not
entirely happy with the situation, but it has some advantages. Balance
would probably be better served as you describe - but the connections would
be a little more bird nesty.



Don't try and measure the voltage for a state of charge measurement.
After a rest, mine sit at about 119v (3.3v/cell) from 2Ah through 20Ah
below my "zero" point and likely less than 50% SOC.

Voltage is about my only option at the moment. I've done quite a bit of
bench testing with a resistive load bank I built and I think voltage is a
pretty good indicator. Of course, the LiFEPo4s have a very flat discharge
curve, but it is quite meaningful.


Looking at your dash, I don't see anywhere that would make sense to put
the EVision. My dashboard also has three clocks in it, I took the
victorian fuel and temperature mechanism out and installed the EVision,
it came up really nicely. See
http://carrott.org/blog/archives/82-EVision-Display-Installation.html

That's a beautiful installation of the Evision dial on your dash. I'm quite
envious. 
Even though it's a replica, I'm a bit conscious of the Porsche look. If you
notice from the photos, there isn't a clue on the exterior that the car is
converted to electric. The three gauges on the dash are kind of a Porsche
thing and I want to retain them. We have the temperature gage working with
a sender retapped for the lifting ring hole in the motor. It turns out that
both the VW engine and the Netgain overtemp at about the same 120C level.

I used the OIL warning light with the accessory contacts of the two
Kilovacs. When I turn the key, it lights to indicate that both contactors
actually closed. I want to change this from red to green.

For EV instrumentation, my plan is to make a copper console panel that will
run from the radio down to the tunnel under the dash. I can mount the bar
graph LEDs and the Evision there.

But keeping it original looking and adding gauges is another one of these
tradeoff areas where I can't precisely win, I can only lose artfully. Your
dash installation of the EVISION is spectacular.


Jack RIckard
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/EV-GRIN---1957-Porsche-356-Speedster-Replica-tp21278748p21293742.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Well, If we limit the voltage at the motor to 170 (to protect flashover) 
you have (170*800 ) / 750 = 181Hp
(but that is not the whole story, it is available across a larger band 
than an ICE's traditional rated HP, which is at one rpm point)

Now the first question is how much weight is this HP trying to push
The second question is how long can the controller sustain the rated 800 
amps
(even a 1000A zilla can only do 1000A for seconds. of course if it 
takes you more than seconds to do a 1/4 mile....)
The third question is how many rpm can you maintain the 170V to the motor
You need enough voltage headroom to let the controller maintain the 
170 at the motor.
(argument for high voltage packs)

Now I played a bit with the the calculations for this
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.php is a simulation of mostly guessed 
values for Gone Postal vs White Zombie.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.txt is the php source code where 
you will find the equations from a drag racing book.
This simulation includes all the weight transfer functons, transmission 
ratios and maximum tractive force calculations.
> What kind of acceleration (0-60, qtr mile, ?) do you get with the 800A
> controller?
>
> Just trying to get a feel for DC motors...
>
> Nice job!
>
> -Thor Johnson
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Well, If we limit the voltage at the motor to 170 (to protect flashover)
you have (170*800 ) / 750 = 181Hp
(but that is not the whole story, it is available across a larger band
than an ICE's traditional rated HP, which is at one rpm point)

Now the first question is how much weight is this HP trying to push
The second question is how long can the controller sustain the rated 800
amps
(even a 1000A zilla can only do 1000A for seconds. of course if it
takes you more than seconds to do a 1/4 mile....)
The third question is how many rpm can you maintain the 170V to the motor
You need enough voltage headroom to let the controller maintain the
170 at the motor.
(argument for high voltage packs)

Now I played a bit with the the calculations for this
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.php is a simulation of mostly guessed
values for Gone Postal vs White Zombie.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/graph3.txt is the php source code where
you will find the equations from a drag racing book.
This simulation includes all the weight transfer functons, transmission
ratios and maximum tractive force calculations.
> What kind of acceleration (0-60, qtr mile, ?) do you get with the 800A
> controller?
>
> Just trying to get a feel for DC motors...
>
> Nice job!
>
> -Thor Johnson
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Well, we're using the Kelly Controller at 800 amps for 10 seconds. But my
pack voltage is much lower, usually 108 volts or so. That would indicate a
max 115hp (108x800/745.6). 

This should be quite enough. The original 1957 Speedster had a 1600 cc
engine producing 60HP at 4600 rpm. The engine we pulled from the car was a
CB Performance 2165cc jobber producing 180HP.

The acceleration seems good to me and very smooth. I'll try to time it
later on some flat ground, but it seems like 0-80km (50mph) in about 7
seconds. It does NOT burn rubber even in first gear. I don't really have
any desire for it to frankly. But just for grins, I've ordered the Kelly
1200 amp version. Spec'd at 1200 amps 10 seconds, 1150A for a minute, and
480A continuous. Probably overkill, but it will last longer at 150 amps I'm
guessing.

I fear the high end speed of 120 km/hr is a function of my pack voltage. 
And there's just not a way to squeeze another couple of batteries into this
car. This is a small midwestern town, and I really don't need to use the
car on the highway at all except for a couple of miles to the airport.

Jack RIckard




Well, If we limit the voltage at the motor to 170 (to protect flashover)
you have (170*800 ) / 750 = 181Hp
(but that is not the whole story, it is available across a larger band
than an ICE's traditional rated HP, which is at one rpm point)

Now the first question is how much weight is this HP trying to push
The second question is how long can the controller sustain the rated 800
amps
(even a 1000A zilla can only do 1000A for seconds. of course if it
takes you more than seconds to do a 1/4 mile....)
The third question is how many rpm can you maintain the 170V to the motor
You need enough voltage headroom to let the controller maintain the
170 at the motor.
(argument for high voltage packs)


>
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

We got the tachometer working yesterday.

I had ordered a magnetic collar from EVPARTS
(http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2552.htm) that purported to work with a hall
effect tach sender (http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2551.htm). It does not.

We have learned the hard way, over and over again, to TEST this stuff BEFORE
mounting it in the car. So I mounted the collar on an electric drill,
connected it to the car, turned on the ignition, and sped up the drill,
holding the pickup within about 1/8 inch of the spinning collar. THis
collar has two magnets embedded in it. The tachometer registered NOTHING. 

I actually ordered a couple of adapters that purport to turn small signals
into 12v square waves. But before installing, I took the transducer back
into the shop and hooked it up to a 12v battery and an oscilloscope. I
repeated the drill experiment. No output waveform of any kind.

The transducer comes with two little magnets, about the size of a #6 washer. 
I tried to mount them on the collar. But the magnets IN the collar shot the
washer magnet across the room.

Finally, I just put the magnets on each side of a hole drill in the drill
and held the transducer about 1/4 inch off of it. BIG waveform. A large
positive spike with a taper, then a large negative spike with taper.

The envelope had a tag on it noting to face the painted side to the
transducer. I flipped the little magnet washers shiny side out and tried
it. NO WAVEFORM.


We connected it to the car. The drill is rated for 1700 rpm. The
tachometer indicated 1400 with both my hands waving around in the air trying
to hold it close while running the drill at full speed. Close enough.

We used a little dab of JBweld to spot the magnets 180 degrees apart on the
rear motor shaft. Fashioned a small L angle brace from copper and bolted to
motor case. Threaded transducer into hole until it was about 3/16ths from
the magnets. Put it in neutral and spun up the motor.

Tachometer indication. Test drive. Expected tach indications in all gears. 
Hurray.

One of the disappointments in this project is most of the equipment we've
received has had NO documention of anykind, printed or online. Some of the
very high dollar stuff has had printed documentation that was so general, I
can't imagine it being of any use to anyone. And some of it has come with a
really high quality single sheet of paper with absolutely inexplicable
instructions obviously written by someone with English as a second language. 
It has been discouraging.

And I still don't get the magnetic collar. EVPARTS clearly indicates on
their web site that this collar is to be used with this transducer. The
pages are even cross-linked. But we just never did figure out how they
might work together. 

In any event, I hope this helps anyone similarly trying to get a standard
ignition coil tachometer to work with an EV motor.

Jack Rickard
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*



> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > I fear the high end speed of 120 km/hr is a function of my pack voltage.
> > And there's just not a way to squeeze another couple of batteries into this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*

Because the high end of my controller is 136 volts.
To get the 20 kWhr I needed for range, and to fit the car, I wound up with
two parallel strings of 8x4 90Ah. 




> Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> > Jack Rickard wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] EV GRIN - 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster Replica*



> Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > I had ordered a magnetic collar from EVPARTS
> > (http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2552.htm) that purported to
> ...


----------

