# Ready-to-Install Battery Packs



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

looking to develop or have available as a byproduct of other interests?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> looking to develop or have available as a byproduct of other interests?


I might know of some surplus inventory


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds like a great opportunity.

Good luck with it, major.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Sounds like a great opportunity.
> 
> Good luck with it, major.


Hi Wood,

I wondered if you'd move it over to the marketplace forum  But I'm not selling these and not in the battery vendor business.

I thought the concept might be a ripe subject for discussion.

Probably too big for your tractor 

Cheers,

major


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Wonder how many donors have one space this size available: 39.4" x 35.4" x 11.8"?
Some have picked a car model like the Honda Civic, and designed components for it, but the market is small since not very many people settle on the same donor. Seems difficult to sell a pre-packaged pack for that reason. BMS needs to be compatible with the charger used. Will be interesting to see the response.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Wood,
> 
> I wondered if you'd move it over to the marketplace forum  But I'm not selling these and not in the battery vendor business.
> 
> ...


That's OK, if you start selling I'll move the thread, or ban you.

I think there is good potential for a pre built pack as there are plenty of builders/converters who are comfortable with the mechanicals but don't wish to mess up the really big financial investment by buying the wrong chemistry, the wrong BMS or charging it incorrectly.

With a pre built pack the unknowns are sorted by a vendor and then, presumably, warrantied to be used with specific charging schemes.

There should be a returns scheme to recycle the aged packs with a discount for the replacement pack.

Maybe a battery company could make up packs for a range of scales of need.

That would open the way towards rental packs that can be swapped out as required, or quick changed at service/fuel stations on the freeway.

Wouldn't suit everyone but there might be a market for it.

Wasn't it Shell who decided that petrol/gasoline should be sold from pumps at service stations instead of being bought in small containers in chemist shops?



major said:


> Probably too big for your tractor


I'm sure I can make space, though probably not the cash, for it! 

I did double check the dimensions for fitting in my trike though, 1300x600x300mm.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Definitely fits in the bed in front of the wheel wells of most compact pickup trucks like rangers, S10, toyota etc. 

Warranties of any sort?

Interesting but the 12k part kinda slows me way down.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> Warranties of any sort?


The fellow I spoke to said that was yet to be determined. So.........maybe. The original application did have a 3 year battery warranty.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Major,

There is one thing that worries me about investing in this venture.
Target Market.
1. EV conversions is actually a very small market place.
2. Taking a look at the garage, there seems to be no two that have the same size/configuration of battery. Standardizing on one size and shape would satisfy way too few potential customers.
3. Add to #2, every EV conversion has it's own goals when it comes to AH and Volts.

So, if you were to standardize the size, shape, AH and voltage into one product, you cut ourself out of a very large percentage of an already small market.

Standardizing on smaller boxes so that total AH and total Voltage could meet more people's design would increase your market. Same applies to size and shape, the smaller the unit size the more applications will be able to fit them in to their requirement.

Just saying. OK, I'll take off my MBA hat and crawl back under my programming rock where I am more comfortable.

Eric


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Major,
> 
> There is one thing that worries me about investing in this venture.
> Target Market.
> ...


Thanks Eric,

I realize that. But if a product existed the DIYers could design around it. Such a product may be able to take advantage of design work and tooling done for an OEM and supply that type of "professional" product to the small time builder. But the downside is that the small guy would have to conform.

If the pack were "busted" into smaller modules then the supplier would lose control of the use and not be able to offer the standard deal (warranty). 

Regards,

major


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

major said:


> Is there any interest in a complete battery system ready to drop into your EV or other project?
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


The answer would be yes, IF:

1. They were LiFePo4.
2. They were rated at 5000 cycles to 80%.
3. They came in 100V 40-60ah 'packs'. These could be put in series to produce 100v, 200v, 300v, 400v etc.. They could be put in parallel to build Amps and amp hours.
4. The pack was IP67.
5. The pack was temperature controlled (hot and cold).

Just a wish list...


----------



## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That's a bit rich for my purposes and budget, but the idea is good. I like the 384 volts which is perfect for a VFD, but I'd like a smaller pack, say 7 kWh, 14 kW continuous, for about $4000. But I realize that the cost of the BMS would not necessarily scale very well, and would be a larger percentage of the cost.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is this pack built with Dow Kokam cells?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Is this pack built with Dow Kokam cells?


No, EnerDel.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd expect a higher peak C rate from this pack.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'd expect a higher peak C rate from this pack.


There are some surplus packs with these specifications available.* They were designed for an OEM. They are what they are. If you use them within the specifications, you may get warranty. You can buy them and use them however you want at your own risk. EnerDel makes more than one type of cell. These particular cells are designed for energy applications (EV) and have characteristics (like deep cycle life) well suited. They also make power cells for other applications like hybrids and that is what you see near the top of Davide's chart. 

I was using this pack for a base for discussion. Different sizes, different voltages, different this and that are what I expected from this DIY group. I know the price is expensive for most looking at this list, but it is actually less than the OEM paid. That is why production EVs are so expensive. And from seeing the trouble members have packaging pouch cells and the labor and expense to them, I thought this "drop-in" approach might have some appeal.

*I am not in the money loop with these surplus batteries, but if you are genuinely interested, send me a PM and I'll forward your contact info the agent.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So are you saying there are other possibly higher C rate packs available, or just these? I'm assuming these are from the failed Think deal and are all that's available.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> So are you saying there are other possibly higher C rate packs available, or just these? I'm assuming these are from the failed Think deal and are all that's available.


I don't think  any other configurations are available as surplus. If you have an OEM application looking for a battery supplier, I recommend EnerDel and they could design a product to fit your application including higher C rates.


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The only way I see this working is if you sell an entire battery specific to a model of car. Take an S-10 for instance. I am going to put the batteries in a Pelican 1690 case with 1" of foam around it. It will have an orange liquid-tight conduit with the power cables coming off of it. The mounting will be a little bit challenging, but I am going to try to do this in the next two days. Standardizing it between every GMC/Ford/Chevy S10 style truck might be possible.

You would be better off adding a motor and controller, disconnects, fuses, whatever and saying everything you need is in this kit, all you need to do is follow these simple directions to swap out everything.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is an existing pack already configured for a specific vehicle, you'd have to figure out if the dimensions would work for you or not. Since it was built for a mini car it could probably fit in a number of different vehicles, with some work. 40"x35"x12" space needed.
I assume it looks something like this:


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

My Pelican case is a little taller than that, but you also have to keep in mind that it will be very heavy still. The voltage/amp-hours thing will still be an issue too.

It would be nice if some of these battery makers would be willing to sell a pack or two to the general public though.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Caps18 said:


> It would be nice if some of these battery makers would be willing to sell a pack or two to the general public though.


There are a number of these available to the general public. They are already built, so you get what you see


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

major said:


> There are a number of these available to the general public. They are already built, so you get what you see


Why haven't I heard of them for sale on-line? How much would they cost?

http://www.dowkokam.com/about-location-midland.htm

Will I be able to pick up a battery from a place like this? I'll be driving past it next week. 

Since there are so many different variables and no standards in the DIY space, it is very hard for one of these big battery makers to produce a 'standard' battery pack. The frame width on the S10 is 35", but there is only 32" from the shocks to the bumper. In order to get the costs down by mass producing them, they would need to have 2 or 3 models that could fit into 95% of the cars, and be at a price point where 95% of DIY'ers will buy from them to be profitable probably.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Caps, did you read this thread?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> In order to get the costs down by mass producing them, they would need to have 2 or 3 models that could fit into 95% of the cars, and be at a price point where 95% of DIY'ers will buy from them to be profitable probably.


These are OEM leftovers. What part of "mass produce", "95% of DIY'ers", and $12,000 battery pack makes you think market success? 

If there's anywhere more than 2 or 3 of these things could be sold it would be on EVTV, where professional trumps price and DIY. Give Jack a dealer and he'll stock it at $15k for the zombies.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Caps18 said:


> Why haven't I heard of them for sale on-line? How much would they cost?
> 
> http://www.dowkokam.com/about-location-midland.htm
> 
> ...


Caps,

Please read the posts from me in this thread. I have answered all the questions. There are a number of surplus packs sitting in a warehouse which the owner wishes to sell for a discount compared to the OEM price. I have contacts in parts of the battery industry and was informed about this opportunity. I am passing along the information to members here. I can forward your contact info to the agent and you can deal with him. I am not in the loop. Send me your email via a PM and I'll send it to him.

Again, read my posts here, please.

Aside from that I was curious as to the viability of ready-to-use battery packs for the DIY or small time EV makers. But it appears that everyone wants something different, so I doubt any battery company would consider doing this as an on-going product. You guys will just have to buy cells or small modules and BMS and connectors and cases and build them yourselves, which is what I do. But should I have a client build requiring a battery like what is available here, I would certainly consider it. I've built batteries consisting of 100's and even 1000's of cells and associated BMS wires and after the first few times, it gets a bit tedious 

major


----------



## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> This is an existing pack already configured for a specific vehicle, you'd have to figure out if the dimensions would work for you or not. Since it was built for a mini car it could probably fit in a number of different vehicles, with some work. 40"x35"x12" space needed.
> I assume it looks something like this:


 No offense to OP
These three companies all Chapter 11
Enerdel... Indiana
A123...... Michigan, Mass group
Valence Tech...Austin TX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnerDel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_Technology
All three are chapter 11 plus engaged in patent lawsuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifepo4
Sadly this technology has a drawback and that being cells/batterys being distributed/sold seperate from a bms/charging/ah measured solution. A few have overcome this obstacle..........


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> No offense to OP
> These three companies all Chapter 11
> Enerdel... Indiana
> A123...... Michigan, Mass group
> ...


Hey Tex,

You are incorrect about EnerDel. It now has new ownership. And the surplus packs have the BMS included as I said. They do not have the charger and would need a CAN interface with the charger. The packs include fuses, current sensors and contactors as well as a control board. That is how a warranty "may" be available if they are used unaltered.

Regards,

major

edit:


> It completed restructuring of its debt and emerged from bankruptcy on March 30, 2012


 From your wiki link.


----------



## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

This seems like a very good price, they were much more expensive. Just curious what does the pack weigh?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Its in the first post.


----------



## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Its in the first post.


Wow! 630lbs for such a low KW pack.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That works out to 80 wh/kg for a finished pack. Bare CALB cells are around 110 wh/kg I think, so by the time you assemble them into a fully enclosed pack such as this you might not be too much better off.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That works out to 80 wh/kg for a finished pack. Bare CALB cells are around 110 wh/kg I think, so by the time you assemble them into a fully enclosed pack such as this you might not be too much better off.


The spec on the EnerDel cell is 147 Wh/kg. So the pack contains 165 kg of cells and 120 kg of plastic, copper, aluminum, steel, contactors, fuses, circuit boards, fasteners and paint.


----------



## bliksem (Aug 3, 2009)

Hello Major 

PM sent.

Thank you for sharing


----------

