# David85's LiFePO4 battery thread



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Subscribing...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Received a phone call today about the battery from the shipping company. They expect the ship to arrive in about a week and another 3 days roughly for the battery to arrive at the warehouse (clear customs). We figure that we will simply drive to the port and take delivery that way. Hope to avoid nasty handling or brokerage fees. Trucking cost alone would probably make up for the cost of a ferry ticket and fuel.

Besides, I haven't been to vancouver in a decade.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Very kewl David, u must be getting excited...


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

That's great David -- keep us posted!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> That's great David -- keep us posted!


Oh yeah! Since I've more or less settled for going for LiFePO4 as well (whenever I'll have the time to start my conversion) I want to know all about this adventure.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Got another call today and they expect to have the goods in the warehouse by sunday, february 1st, then it will be another 3 days to clear customs before I can have them. Could be as soon as late next week.


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## thetod (Oct 27, 2008)

Hopefully the customs agents are gentle.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

OK, the shipment should be on its way here as we speak. Priced out driving there and having out usualy shipper pick it up for us and it was cheaper to have it trucked.

Could be here as early as tomorrow.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Very cool indeed. Do you have any estimates as to what your range may be when your full pack is up and running?


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## goo_nadd (Apr 30, 2008)

I think I missed your original thread. Where did you buy from? Cost of the batteries?

Thanks.
________
YAMAHA ZUMA HISTORY


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

goo_nadd said:


> I think I missed your original thread. Where did you buy from? Cost of the batteries?
> 
> Thanks.


Purchased from Sieden battery in china. Price was roughly $0.50/wh.



Jason Lattimer said:


> Very cool indeed. Do you have any estimates as to what your range may be when your full pack is up and running?


I'm aiming for 100 miles. All the best guesses show that it COULD be a conservative estimate. Although the way I intend to drive this car, I would be happy with 75 miles, heehee.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its here!

Dropped off this morning. Even got a courtesy message this evening from Emily at Sieden to make sure it was recieved ok. Its going to take some figuring out, but it stays in storage for now. I have an ICE that I've been fighting with for the last week and am almost ready to get that vehicle back on the road. Did I mention how much I hate ICEs?


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## thetod (Oct 27, 2008)

All this anticipation and you are leaving it boxed up in storage?!?! I would be tearing into that like Christmas morning. Does everything look like it arrived alright?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Its been a long day. I had to drive down to coombs to get some parts and then spend the rest of the day getting the engine ready for re installation. Actually we did take everything out of the boxes before storing them in the basement, but I had to run and didn't take a picture of that. But yes, everything is unwrapped. 

I mainly wanted to show how it was prepped for shipping and handling.


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## Georgia Tech (Dec 5, 2008)

david85 said:


> Purchased from Sieden battery in china. Price was roughly $0.50/wh.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm aiming for 100 miles. All the best guesses show that it COULD be a conservative estimate. Although the way I intend to drive this car, I would be happy with 75 miles, heehee.


Whats their web sight? who do I contact to order some my self?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Their alibaba web page is probably your best bet for contacting them with a sales inquiry:

http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/

This is the official company website:

http://www.seidenbattery.com/main.asp

They are actually part of a group of battery companies that pool their product and marketing resources to compete in world markets. Its taken me a while to understand that, but I think thats how it works.


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## goo_nadd (Apr 30, 2008)

Pictures of unwrap?

Inquiring minds want to know.
________
Variable Universal Life Insurance Forums


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Congratulations David!

Keep us posted!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Pics of the unpack. The charger and BMS are seperate boxes that each have seperate power cords so its going to be more complicated than I hoped. They are so big that I will probably just mount them in the shop and recharge the car at home. Since it will have a long range, oportunity charging is not really an issue for me and the boxed will still fit in the trunk if I decide to try and make it to and from destinations further away then ~40-50 miles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought I remembered Texoma mentioning that the cells should be kept upright and strapped together even when not in use because the cells can bulge and the layers can separate and the electrolyte can uncover the layers?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I thought I remembered Texoma mentioning that the cells should be kept upright and strapped together even when not in use because the cells can bulge and the layers can separate and the electrolyte can uncover the layers?


Yeah I've heard things like that too, but these are supposed to not require that. I specifically asked if they require strapping and if they have to be installed in an upright position. Answer was no for both.

I'm finding out that there are differences between different LiFePO4 batteries, so not all are created the same. Thundersky alone has some 2 dozen patents on their battery.

Aside from a pricing error that was admitted on their end before money changed hands, they service I have received from my supplier has been as good as I can expect and I have been given no reason not to trust their info.

I'll find out soon enough if it will be a problem, but I do plan to use straps simply for no other reason than to fasten the modules in the battery boxes and to make removal and installation easier.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought Texoma had the same cells as you. Here's where I found his recommendations: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ce-prismatic-lifepo4-cells-25632.html?t=25632



> Be sure, and place restraining plates on the end faces, bind the whole assembly with strapping to keep the cells from ever having the chance to bulge. If they ever bulge, and I've had brand new unused cells do this on their own, the internal plates start to spread apart, dry spots will develop and your capacity will slowly dwindle, to the point the battery will fail. I know this from dissecting a failed battery.





> The best way, from what we can tell is they need to be installed with the terminals up. There is very little electrolyte in the cells, and it tends to settle to the point the top portion of the plates aren't saturated, as there is some distance from the top of the cell to the actual plate material in the cells. Plus there's always the chance that the terminals might not have the greatest seal, and then there's that center plug as well.


Might be better safe than sorry.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The batteries were actually shipped on their side and I was categorically told that installing them on their side will not hurt them by my supplier.

The rear batteries will be installed on their side, while the front will be vertical, or close to it.

I'm not ready to say 100% that its safe and everyone should do this, but I am confident enough to do this on my car. If all the rear cells die for some reason (which I doubt) then I'll have my answer.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> The batteries were actually shipped on their side and I was categorically told that installing them on their side will not hurt them by my supplier.
> 
> The rear batteries will be installed on their side, while the front will be vertical, or close to it.
> 
> I'm not ready to say 100% that its safe and everyone should do this, but I am confident enough to do this on my car. If all the rear cells die for some reason (which I doubt) then I'll have my answer.


Side mounting simply appears to harm overall cycle life (by about half)... you probably won't see any negative effects for a few hundred charging cycles at least.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This car project has always been about racking up as many miles as possible to truly test the batteries for future vehicles that I might build, so I hope it won't take too long to see those results.

I may have tested a small sample, but in reality my real battery testing has not yet begun.


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## Malaki (Feb 28, 2009)

I'm new to this forum but I found your threads interesting. I found a supplier for batteries that seemed similar to the ones you described http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/ba-lb-200-3.2.htm
"They are not orientation sensitive, install them any way you want."
I don't know much about the batteries, I noticed that these are 3.2v cells is that what you are using? If it is, how big would a 144 volt pack be?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Malaki said:


> I'm new to this forum but I found your threads interesting. I found a supplier for batteries that seemed similar to the ones you described http://www.cloudelectric.com/product_p/ba-lb-200-3.2.htm
> "They are not orientation sensitive, install them any way you want."
> I don't know much about the batteries, I noticed that these are 3.2v cells is that what you are using? If it is, how big would a 144 volt pack be?


Welcome to the forum, Malaki.

Its hard to answer your question of battery size, there will be 48 if these 200Ah cells, so you can calculate estimated volume based on that. Battery pack will be spread out through out the car under the trunk and the hood (may also use space where the fuel tank was).


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi David,

Did the cells end up matching the dimensional specs on the website?

Why did you go with the 200AH instead of the 150AH versions, if you don't mind my asking?

Cheers,
Adam


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I didn't buy from cloud electric since they were way too expensive at the time. Not too bad now.....but still not that great either.

The sizing seems to be close. I would call it closer to 2.25" thick and the height does not include a safe clearence for the connectors on top so count on having a taller box than just 13".

As for why I went with 200AH instead of 150AH, I wanted range. LOTS OF RANGE!!!!

I'm hoping to get 100 miles per charge without having to baby the car. I hope I can get that.

Also since the C rating is relatively low, I didn't want to overwork the batteries, so going to a larger cell is a way to overdesign the system a little more. I think you would still be safe with 150 AH though (just safer with 200).


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks for the info! I'd love to go with the 200Ah cells, but they're getting a bit heavy at that point. It'd be great to be able to have 3 people in the car without going over the GVW.

Have you posted anywhere any details on the charger and balancing circuits that they included with your batts? Would be curious to know what the charge rate would be for the charger, especially.

Thanks!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I have the charger and BMS but haven't had time to take a closer look at them yet. They are quite massive though.....might have to leave them out of the car unless I need to oportunity charge.

Based on the raw specs, the charge time should overnight for a complete recharge from 0% SOC assuming a 220VAC 30amp power outlet is available. The charger will accept 110 or 220 VAC input voltage automatically and can output up to 25A and 176VDC.

Not sure yet if I would recommend using them simply because of their huge size. Time will tell how well they work.


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## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

david85 said:


> I'll use this thread to keep the forum updated on the *lithium 144V 200Ah battery *that I ordered for my 1996 saturn SL1 conversion.


Damn, that is a big-ass battery pack. Well, not Tesla big but big for a DIY conversion. I want to know the range you get. That battery pack is actually a little bigger than the size of the battery pack in the Th!nk City car. However, since the Saturn is a bigger heavier car, I'm sure you won't get the same range they get.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Actually, the saturn is lighter (much lighter) than the think in stock form at about 2200lbs, the think is a little over 3000. My car will probably weigh about that when its done, but it will drive up to actual freeway speeds and above, and looking at the think, it doesn't seem to have very good aerodynamics and seems to be made taller and shorter to make it better for dense urban travel rather than highway cruising. Seems like it only has 2 seats as well.

I've seen larger and heavier EV conversions get similar range as what think claims, at higher speeds when using thundersky batteries and series wound brushed motors. I am expecting at least 100 miles range at highway speeds (161 KM), and longer if cruise speed is reduced and I can get a regen high efficiency motor/drive system. I'm not sure what speed think assumes for their range estimates.

At least, I hope I can beat the think when my car is done. At the very least it will be faster and have better seating

Oh, and the battery pack is actually made with 48 cells instead of 45. They overdesigned the pack for me so in reality the performance is closer to 153.6V and 30.7 kwh, but who's counting


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## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

david85 said:


> Actually, the saturn is lighter (much lighter) than the think in stock form at about 2200lbs, the think is a little over 3000. My car will probably weigh about that when its done, but it will drive up to actual freeway speeds and above, and looking at the think, it doesn't seem to have very good aerodynamics and seems to be made taller and shorter to make it better for dense urban travel rather than highway cruising. Seems like it only has 2 seats as well.


The Th!nk city is actually 1113 kg = 2448.6 lbs. The weight given on that specifications page is wrong . . . that is vehicle weight plus its 284kg load capacity as set forth in their brochure. But for such a small car, it is a bit too heavy . . . they *really *should figure out how to shave a few hundred pounds off it to make it more efficient. And yes, it is just a 2 seater. 

And yes, they should also make it a bit more aerodynamic . . . especially for when they plan to bring it to the US market. They've said they are going to put in a bigger motor for the US market so it can go 72 mph. But that is probably going to make them take a hit on range, so improving aerodynamics would help mitigate that . . . especially at freeway speeds. 




david85 said:


> Oh, and the battery pack is actually made with 48 cells instead of 45. They overdesigned the pack for me so in reality the performance is closer to 153.6V and 30.7 kwh, but who's counting


That is a really big-ass battery pack. I certainly think you should be able to get over a 100 miles. Do you know of any other conversions with a pack that big and what they've got for range?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

speculawyer said:


> The Th!nk city is actually 1113 kg = 2448.6 lbs. The weight given on that specifications page is wrong . . . that is vehicle weight plus its 284kg load capacity as set forth in their brochure. But for such a small car, it is a bit too heavy . . . they *really *should figure out how to shave a few hundred pounds off it to make it more efficient. And yes, it is just a 2 seater.


Ok, I thought 3000lbs might be a little on the high side.



speculawyer said:


> And yes, they should also make it a bit more aerodynamic . . . especially for when they plan to bring it to the US market. They've said they are going to put in a bigger motor for the US market so it can go 72 mph. But that is probably going to make them take a hit on range, so improving aerodynamics would help mitigate that . . . especially at freeway speeds.


I'll be honest with you, I never really took this car very seriously and almost considered it more of an NEV. I might have been wrong though. Maybe in the country that they are made, the driving conditions lends better to this type of car. Whatever the case, it does have staying power, even with its flaws. If a longer, lower and lighter version could be made, I think this company will last.



speculawyer said:


> That is a really big-ass battery pack. I certainly think you should be able to get over a 100 miles. Do you know of any other conversions with a pack that big and what they've got for range?


Nope. There are cars that come close though and some of the guestimates for my cars range could be as high as 150 miles, but 100 miles is the official goal and I won't claim any higher until I roll over that mark.

This car was and remains one of my all time inspirations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise

But these ones are closer to earth: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars

The rav4 with taller frontal cross section and higher weight can already reach 100 miles according to the claims (battery nearly identical to mine). I wish I knew what the reserve capacity of that fiero was....

Looking here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
It seems that the OEM electric rav is very similar in performance to the thundersky powered rav4 with similar range and battery capacity.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

David85,
I've been following your test thread, and this one, to learn more about the chinese batteries. You've been a HUGE info source for this forum! THANKS!! 

I'm particularly interested in your pack. The pack I have in my Electro-Willys is not up to the task I need it to do. I doubt if it will last me more than a year. I'm also running a 144v system, but my E-W Jeep is no where near as aerodynamic and your machine. I'll need more ah just to maintain highway speeds (55). 

Thanks for keeping this info flowing. I may be following your lead very soon.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You think you'll need more than 200 amps to hold speed?

I just realized a mistake in the previous reply. The link I provided for the DIY electric car garage doesn't show what I intended.

To find the cars that have clost to 100 mile range, click on the pull down menu for "range @ 55" and select 90+ to see the cars I mentioned.


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