# Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

Please don't call the Gel. They are AGMs

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Spike41
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries


I am gathering some info for a conversion I am about to do. My first one.

71 VW Bus - Manual Transmission.

Does anyone have any opinions about Gel VS Flooded bateries? Which is
better? Which lasts longer, provides better performance, etc?

Thanks.

Todd
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

> Does anyone have any opinions about Gel VS Flooded bateries? Which is
> better? Which lasts longer, provides better performance, etc?

It really depends on the batteries.
Floodeds are preferred by more people because they are cheaper (typically
both in the short run and the long run)
Floodeds also tend to give slightly more range for the weight.
Gels don't typically like high discharge rates.
However, like with most things, there are exceptions.

Are you sure you're looking at Gel batteries and not AGMs?
AGMs are a sealed battery (technically Valve Regulated) like Gels, but use
a fiberglass mat to absorb the acid instead of a silica gel.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

Actually, Gel and AGM are different... somehow.... Gel handle cold weather
a little better, and deep cycling, but cannot handle the current levels that
EV's demand. AGM's handle higher current better. There was a recent thread
on it... If you look at the MK battery website, you'll see that they have a
complete line of both Gel and AGM batteries, depending on your application.

Z



> Mark Grasser <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Please don't call the Gel. They are AGMs
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries - Got it. Thanks for the clarification. 

Thanks.






> markgrasser wrote:
> >
> > Please don't call the Gel. They are AGMs
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

This is what I recall about batteries from the list.

Flooded:

cheap

durable

will take some newb abuse

heavy

bad peukert number so it can't pull many amps so your car will be slow

can handle repeated deep discharges

AGM:

good peukert number so it'll pull lots of amps and be fast

no watering mess like for flooded batteries

lighter

expensive

need special care (balancers) that they don't get out of balance.
CANNOT be overcharged (that's what balancers are for)

Here is the one thing I am not sure about: can AGMs handle repeated
deep discharges? If you install balancers, then can you do repeated
deep discharges on AGMs since then there will be less overcharging?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

Hey Mark,

Please don't misinform the newbies. There is such a thing as a Gel 
battery. Instead of letting the electrolyte slosh around in liquid 
form like a flooded battery, or absorbing it into a fiberglass mat like 
an AGM, a gel battery absorbs the electrolye into a gelling agent.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_battery>

DEKA makes a well-regarded line of them. The original Solectria Force 
conversions used them. They are not so good for energy density, they 
are non-spillable, and they tend to have long life. They're bad at 
making large amounts of current, so the successful conversions that use 
gel batteries generally use lots of small ones to get a high voltage 
pack (which reduces the current draw).

Don Cameron's excellent New Beetle conversion journal talks about how 
he decided on his batteries:

<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BatterySelection.html>

He compared the various battery types and chose gels for his car.




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > Please don't call the Gel. They are AGMs
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

> This is what I recall about batteries from the list.
>
> Flooded:
> heavy
>
> bad peukert number so it can't pull many amps so your car will be slow

> AGM:
>
> good peukert number so it'll pull lots of amps and be fast
> lighter

"Lighter" and "Heavier" are kind of meaningless here. You can buy heavy
AGMs and light flooded batteries.
For given energy storage:
at rates less than 1C, flooded batteries tend to lighter than AGMs,
around 1C the weights are similar,
a discharges above 1C AGMs tend to be lighter than floodeds.

Peikerts number isn't directly about how many amps you can pull, it's
about the apparent loss in capacity at higher discharge rates. They can
make floodeds that can produce as much current as high rate AGMs, but they
don't tend to last long.


> Here is the one thing I am not sure about: can AGMs handle repeated
> deep discharges?

Yes, but it depends on how deep. If you're doing 100% DoD, most floodeds
and AGMs have about the same rated life cycle, i.e. a couple hundred
cycles give or take.

> If you install balancers, then can you do repeated
> deep discharges on AGMs since then there will be less overcharging?

Deep discharges and overcharging are two different issues. Both
(either/or) will reduce your cycle life. Both together will really reduce
your cycle life.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

I just bought 6 of the biggest Sears Platinum AGM batteries for a little
in-town 72v commuter 1971 VW Super Beetle. I'll let you know how they turn
out. There's a 3 year full replacement warranty on them.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

I just bought 6 of the biggest Sears Platinum AGM batteries for a little
in-town 72v commuter 1971 VW Super Beetle. I'll let you know how they turn
out. There's a 3 year full replacement warranty on them. As a side note,
they are only 100 amp*hr, but weigh 75 pounds each, and have a Peukert value
of 1.09 or so. ONLY $240 each! Wow, what a deal.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

"Sealed" gel and AGM batteries are actually valve regulated. That means 
that hazardous excess pressure from gassing can be released by pop valves. 
Allegedly the cell caps, if any, aren't removeable; they can't (officially) 
be watered even if they should need it. They make less mess because they're 
closed systems, but usually cost more per mile or KM of use, and require 
more sophisticated (read : more expensive) charging systems. You can judge 
their state of charge rather approximately by reading their open circuit 
voltage.

Flooded or open batteries can release small amounts of acid mist when 
charged, may weep electrolyte if the post seals fail, and require periodic 
cleaning. They also need occasional watering. They usually cost markedly 
less than valve regulated batteries per mile or KM of use. They are more 
forgiving of crude chargers. You can measure their state of charge fairly 
accurately with a hydrometer. 

In general, gel batteries have the lowest specific power (watts per unit of 
weight) of the types mentioned. My understanding (usual disclaimer : I am 
not an electrochemist) is that this is because as the acid in the 
electrolyte is depleted in the discharge reaction, it takes longer than in 
other designs for the concentrated electrolyte to diffuse in and take its 
place.

AGM batteries generally have the highest specific power. But not all AGMs 
are optimized for power, so some are better than others in this regard.

Again generally speaking, flooded batteries have the best specific energy 
(watt-hours per unit of weight). This is because gel and AGM batteries are 
often of starved-electrolyte design. This means the electrolyte goes flat 
before the electrodes do, protecting the electrodes from overdischarge.

Again, however, there are exceptions. Also, because of AGMs' often better 
Peukert performance, some will return higher apparent capacity when the 
battery is being discharged in a half-hour or less (high performance EVs, 
for example).

East Penn Deka Dominator gel batteries were indeed the batteries Solectria 
chose for their EVs, after trying several brands of flooded 12v marine 
batteries, and AGMs by Hawker. Dominators work relatively well without 
individual battery regulators because their manufacturing tolerances are 
unusually close -- that is, the batteries are quite consistent in capacity 
and stay fairly so with minimal equalization. 

Also, the Dominators are more electrolyte-starved than most. If you look at 
their manual, cycle life is rated as nearly equal at 80% DOD and 100% DOD. 
That's because, for them, 100% DOD (the electrolyte flat) leaves the 
electrodes at about 20% SOC. This protects the batteries from overdischarge 
by careless users. 

The Brusa AC controllers that Solectria used also helped preserve the 
batteries by monitoring the pack voltage. They limited the current to keep 
the battery voltage from falling below 1.75 vpc. Generic DC series motor 
controllers, which suit a wide range of input voltages without 
configuration, usually aren't able to do this. AFAIK, Curtis controllers at 
least don't. 

Gel batteries are generally usable up to about 2C (twice their amp-hour 
capacity expressed in amps). Flooded batteries are typically good to about 
3C. AGMs vary; Concorde batteries, for example, behave a lot like flooded 
batteries; Hawkers dish out stupendous currents with aplomb.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

Thank you Peter for correcting me.

"If you're doing 100% DoD, most floodeds and AGMs have about the same
rated life cycle, i.e. a couple hundred cycles give or take."

Assuming you have an AGM pack that is given a 60% DOD (that's probably
a pretty typical DOD from an EV) and assuming that all other factors
are fine (good charger, balancers, never pulling a ridiculous number
of amps ect.) how many cycles can you expect from a pack like this?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

The plot thickens! great posts and guidance for us newbies
What is required to keep SLA happy and equalized?




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > "Sealed" gel and AGM batteries are actually valve regulated. That means
> > that hazardous excess pressure from gassing can be released by pop valves.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

The plot thickens further and I see that AGMs very short life compared
to Gels makes it clear that although AGMs make big power they last a
very short life. When looking at the Deka range there is 20 dollars in
difference between the 8ggc2 and the 8agc2 and yet the Gel 8ggc2 is
rated for 600 cycles @ 80DOD where the AGM @ 200 making AGMs a
very expensive proposition.




> Nick Drouin wrote:
> >
> > On 7/31/08, AMPrentice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

I prefer flooded.
1. You have lots of space.
2. They are forgiving.
3. Less expensive.
Tom Meyers

> I am gathering some info for a conversion I am about to do. My first one. 
> 71 VW Bus - Manual Transmission.
Does anyone have any opinions about Gel VS Flooded bateries? Which is
better? Which lasts longer, provides better performance, etc?
> Thanks.
> Todd

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*



> Joseph T. wrote:
> >> "If you're doing 100% DoD, most floodeds and AGMs have about the same
> >> rated life cycle, i.e. a couple hundred cycles give or take."
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

If you can live with the lower amps of gel, (ie make sure you have a
high voltage pack and let the controller do current multiplication for
you and or keep the vehicle light.) the gels compared to the orbitals
have 15% more energy in the same space. They weigh more, it is just the
difference in flat plates vs spirals and the space between the spiral
cells.

I was surprised to find pretty good prices and fast moving and fresh
stock on the 8g24mm's here in Fresno. They have changed to all SAE posts
now.
The 1hr rateing is twice the orbitals 1 hr rate. but 53.6 vs 41 lb

My 984lbs of 24 orbitals may go to 24 gels @ 1272 lbs next pack, once I
get a new BMS

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

You are lucky in the US that Gels are much cheaper than here in Oz.
I just calculated that Gels here at double the price will cost 65-70%
the price of the cheapes lithium lifepo4 (not TS).




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> > If you can live with the lower amps of gel, (ie make sure you have a
> > high voltage pack and let the controller do current multiplication for
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Gel or Flooded batteries*

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