# Two Controller - Two Motors Thread!



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wiring two controllers (Zilla 2K HV's) to two Netgain 11" motors is why I am starting this thread. I have not spoken with my guy yet on how to wire this type of set-up (Holiday), so I am starting this to help me and new ev racers. And yes the thread will be polite. 

I am assuming both controllers must be wired separately to each motor in series to gain 4000amps at the wheels? Has this been done before? I know Lawless wired two Zilla 2K's to one motor to create 4000amps, but two motors?

The new Lipo Batteries will create a stiff pack that can push 5000amps.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Wiring two controllers (Zilla 2K HV's) to two Netgain 11" motors is why I am starting this thread. I have not spoken with my guy yet on how to wire this type of set-up (Holiday), so I am starting this to help me and new ev racers. And yes the thread will be polite.
> 
> I am assuming both controllers must be wired separately to each motor in parallel to gain 4000amps at the wheels? Has this been done before? I know Lawless wired two Zilla 2K's to one motor to create 4000amps, but two motors?
> 
> The new Lipo Batteries will create a stiff pack that can push 5000amps.


Hi Ronnie,

I know you politely asked me not to participate in your threads. But isn't that presumptuous of you. I mean, this is an open forum in a free world, right? So here is my polite reply.

You say you have hired in the brains to do your job but come here and ask advice. How many DIYers do you think own a Zilla? How many own two?

You want some free consulting or advise, I hope you get it. From this site, you have stated you just consider it rubbish. So if members want to waste their time as I am doing, so be it.

And sincerely, good luck with your vehicles. You'll need it. I wish you would have worked with us instead against us. But that was totally your choice.

major


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Or does the terms "series" and "parallel" only relate to wiring one controller to two motors?

I guess you can wire each Zilla directly to each motor (separately) and get 4000amps and max volts your motors can support. How does the throttle controls correspond? 

As long as the pack will support it! 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Wiring two controllers (Zilla 2K HV's) to two Netgain 11" motors is why I am starting this thread. I have not spoken with my guy yet on how to wire this type of set-up (Holiday), so I am starting this to help me and new ev racers. And yes the thread will be polite.
> 
> I am assuming both controllers must be wired separately to each motor in series to gain 4000amps at the wheels? Has this been done before? I know Lawless wired two Zilla 2K's to one motor to create 4000amps, but two motors?
> 
> The new Lipo Batteries will create a stiff pack that can push 5000amps.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Major,

I will have the answer to my question on Monday. I started this thread to explore different avenues of discussions for the new guys when building an ev race cars. 

In regards to working with you or against you is another very good subject. We would not have a problem if you would only open your eyes to our side of the NEDRA disagreement, you were not in the private talks, you were not on the phone when I spoke with Chip. You attacked me because of what you read on the Nedra board, but by then the pissing matches started. We have our reasons for holding our ground, it was Nedra's choice whether or not to work with us. Yes, I was persistent, I was putting up thousands of dollars for advertisements and arrangements, I needed ECEDRA to be a separate entity to cover my own investment.

The flames between NEDRA and ECEDRA have been turned down for weeks, I have been in contact with some of the NEDRA people willing to build a bridge. Maybe one day my board, and the NEDRA board can come to some type of a working agreement for the racers. By you attacking me on almost every thread does not help matters.

I wish you and your family the best! Happy New Year!



major said:


> Hi Ronnie,
> 
> I know you politely asked me not to participate in your threads. But isn't that presumptuous of you. I mean, this is an open forum in a free world, right? So here is my polite reply.
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> our side of the NEDRA disagreement,


That's interesting. What does NEDRA have to do with this thread? I thought you were talking about 2 Zillas. My mistake.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I answered my owned question:

"The Zilla works excellently with single motor systems, but realizing that many of the quickest EVs use dual motors, the Hairball interface also has a option for safe automatic Series/Parallel shifting of dual motors for even more power and efficiency."

I am still concerned how two connected motors, powered separately will operate, I would hate for one to "fight" the other. 

http://cafeelectric.com/zilla.php?z...9&zenAdminID=74843299a81299efa3d61314338bea89


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

After reading this comment I thought you were commenting in regards to NEDRA, knowing you post on their forum and attack me relating to matters that were no concern of yours.

"I wish you would have worked with us instead against us"



major said:


> That's interesting. What does NEDRA have to do with this thread? I thought you were talking about 2 Zillas. My mistake.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I was speaking as a member of the DIY forum here. That's all. I'll step out now and let your thread resume normal course. Sorry for the interruption.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, was not sure, sometimes you are a spokesman for NEDRA. Let's stick to the topic.



major said:


> I was speaking as a member of the DIY forum here. That's all. I'll step out now and let your thread resume normal course. Sorry for the interruption.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, was not sure, sometimes you are a spokesman for NEDRA.


I never was  It was all in your head. 

Enough about that...Let it go and I won't post back.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Let's start the New Year on a new foot. You would do much good by just sticking to answering the questions and not getting personal. Enough said. 



major said:


> I never was  It was all in your head.
> 
> Enough about that...Let it go and I won't post back.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

I don't know if the motors will fight or not, but you only have 2000a per motor there is no 4k in this equation it will perform like a series connection of the motors, however you will have full pack voltage available to each motor so no rpm limits like you might find in a series setup.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow, I needed to take electronics in Tech School and not automotive. So, even though each controller is connected to each motor separately and your amps of each controller is 2000, it still stays at only 2000amps? Then how is Lawless getting 4000amps with two controllers?



rwaudio said:


> I don't know if the motors will fight or not, but you only have 2000a per motor there is no 4k in this equation it will perform like a series connection of the motors, however you will have full pack voltage available to each motor so no rpm limits like you might find in a series setup.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

You will have 1 motor per controller. Assuming unlimited power into the controllers you will be able to push 1 motor with the full potential of 1 controller. You will in effect have the equivalent of a double length motor with a double power controller. Same voltage but double amps. You will of course place more demand on your pack but you say it is capable of 5000A so you should be fine. Wire 1 controller to 1 motor, wire the other controller to the other motor, and wire both controllers to the same battery pack and same throttle input.

Don't worry about the motors fighting each other. Think of adding a second motor like a car going downhill, the first motor just has an easier time because of the lower load. The only time one would fight the other is if you reversed one.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, that matches what I have been told. Two controllers can run off the same pack and be wired separately to each motor giving each the maximum amps from each controller which is 2000amps each, 4000amps to the wheels. The pack MUST be able to handle 4000amps for atleast 10 seconds without "killing" the batteries. 



Batterypoweredtoad said:


> You will have 1 motor per controller. Assuming unlimited power into the controllers you will be able to push 1 motor with the full potential of 1 controller. You will in effect have the equivalent of a double length motor with a double power controller. Same voltage but double amps. You will of course place more demand on your pack but you say it is capable of 5000A so you should be fine. Wire 1 controller to 1 motor, wire the other controller to the other motor, and wire both controllers to the same battery pack and same throttle input.
> 
> Don't worry about the motors fighting each other. Think of adding a second motor like a car going downhill, the first motor just has an easier time because of the lower load. The only time one would fight the other is if you reversed one.


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## badfishracing (Dec 4, 2009)

If the motors are identical, they should share the load equally. Things like brush timing may affect the loading. Field strength/armature gap can affect the load sharing. In large conveyor systems with multiple DC motors on the chain, they will adjust the field current to ensure that the armature currents are equal. But if each motor has the proper current and voltage limits set in the zilla, you shouldn't hurt them anyway.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I will say guys this drag car is getting more interesting everyday. Batteries have been flowing in daily, chassis is changing, and now we are able to add a second 2000amp controller! 

I love the idea that I can add more torque (4000amps) to the wheels, I knew my voltage was limited because of the motors, but amps to the moon!

I have a few questions, has anyone ever used two controllers and two motors?


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

I've been wondering if you really need two controllers in this setup where two motors are physically .

A controller limits the speed and torque the motor produces based on volts and amps, right ? With a battery pack feeding a motor with no controller in between, the motor would just speed to whatever RPM the voltage and amps available could push it against whatever load it hits.

So if you have one controller running the first motor, and the second motor is just coasting along until kicked in by a simple contactor -- say when the accelerator bottoms out -- then the second motor would jump in with the volts the pack can produce and whatever amps are available, right ? Like a turbo kicking in. Letting off on the pedal a bit would completely cut out the second motor but you'd still have the first motor still running under control by the single controller. What would be the pitfalls in this approach ?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dreamer said:


> So if you have one controller running the first motor, and the second motor is just coasting along until kicked in by a simple contactor -- say when the accelerator bottoms out -- then the second motor would jump in with the volts the pack can produce and whatever amps are available, right ? Like a turbo kicking in. Letting off on the pedal a bit would completely cut out the second motor but you'd still have the first motor still running under control by the single controller. What would be the pitfalls in this approach ?


Sooo... Does these suicidal tendencies of yours manifest in any other way than trying to incinerate yourself in a burning car wreck?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I have just spoken with a friend of mine that blew one of his motors using one controller per motor. I will keep the names private, its the problem I want the board to read. His motors connect by chain, but at the time of testing they were not connected. When they turned the power on one motor spun into no mans land and blew before they could kill the juice.

Both controllers were connected to each motor separately, the *ONLY* part that was shared was the throttle control (TPS or 5K potentiometer) I will keep the throttle control private also because this would reveal what controllers were used.

So, it is recommened if anyone builds a two motor/two controller car you *MUST* use two separate throttle controlls, just connect them mechanically.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I have just spoken with a friend of mine that blew one of his motors using one controller per motor. I will keep the names private, its the problem I want the board to read. His motors connect by chain, but at the time of testing they were not connected. When they turned the power on one motor spun into no mans land and blew before they could kill the juice.
> 
> Both controllers were connected to each motor separately, the *ONLY* part that was shared was the throttle control (TPS or 5K potentiometer) I will keep the throttle control private also because this would reveal what controllers were used.
> 
> So, it is recommened if anyone builds a two motor/two controller car you *MUST* use two separate throttle controlls, just connect them mechanically.


Also, you can't free spin a DC motor with more than 12 volts, it will spin into oblivion and grenade. If you are going to do a motor test with pack voltage, the motor must be under load, like installed into the EV with wheels on.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> So, it is recommened if anyone builds a two motor/two controller car you *MUST* use two separate throttle controlls, just connect them mechanically.


And this would achieve what, exactly?

The throttle control only provides a control signal. There's no magic feedback that makes the throttle control back off if the motor's over-reving so having separate throttle controls, each with the capability to over-rev an unloaded series wound motor.

Series wound motors have one huge advantage for racing; brutal amount of torque when they're under heavy load, but that also unfortunately mean that they also go off the scale along the other axis (RPM) when they're unloaded. A series wound motor can easily fling itself to pieces at rather low voltages (~20 Volt) if there's no load attached to it, that's why it's repeatedly recommended to never test a series wound motor with more than a 12 Volt battery. It'll spin nicely at 12 Volt but the internal friction will make sure it doesn't over-rev.

The only way to protect a series wound motor from over-reving is by using a tachometer, but even with one of those we've found out that with a 1 ppr tachometer an unloaded motor will easily overshoot with about 1000 RPM over the setting before the Soliton reacts. A tachometer with more ppr will probably lower that number, but an unloaded series wound motor is pretty self destructive in it's behaviour.






What you don't see in this video is how many times the controller goes in and cut power to save the motor. It cuts power several times per second (I think the graph is somewhere in the forum, use google  ) and if it didn't the motor would be toast the first time the throttle is cranked up.

So conclusion; dual throttles would achieve exactly nothing! Well, except for an additional post in the conversion cost that is...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't think they were turning the power on to spin the motors freely, just to check out the system. Their shop was loud at the time, and they did not realize one motor was spinning until a few seconds, by then it was too late. They have experience the company has been building ev's for years, but this new concept of adding more motors and controllers was new to them, they never thought the throttle control would be an issue.



TheSGC said:


> Also, you can't free spin a DC motor with more than 12 volts, it will spin into oblivion and grenade. If you are going to do a motor test with pack voltage, the motor must be under load, like installed into the EV with wheels on.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, then why did one motor run and the other did not? They were connected separately? No throttle was given, just the power turned on.



Qer said:


> And this would achieve what, exactly?
> 
> The throttle control only provides a control signal. There's no magic feedback that makes the throttle control back off if the motor's over-reving so having separate throttle controls, each with the capability to over-rev an unloaded series wound motor.
> 
> ...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, then why did one motor run and the other did not? They were connected separately? No throttle was given, just the power turned on.


Completely impossible to speculate about since you don't give us all the facts to work with.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Read you private messages, I will give you a tad bit more info. I do not want to post publicly companies and names.



Qer said:


> Completely impossible to speculate about since you don't give us all the facts to work with.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, is there any way by wiring two controllers to one TPS that it would have created a false signal? Just trying to trouble shoot the problem.



Qer said:


> The throttle control only provides a control signal. quote]


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I will say guys this drag car is getting more interesting everyday. Batteries have been flowing in daily, chassis is changing, and now we are able to add a second 2000amp controller!
> 
> I love the idea that I can add more torque (4000amps) to the wheels, I knew my voltage was limited because of the motors, but amps to the moon!
> 
> I have a few questions, has anyone ever used two controllers and two motors?


The problem is you aren't getting (the torque from) 4000A to the wheels.
There are no published torque specs at those current levels so I am simply going to make up nice round numbers to make the math easy to follow.

With a single Zilla, and motors wired in series you have:
2000A per motor or 600ft-lbs per motor (number made up based on evsource.com numbers for 1000A)
This gives you a possible 1200ft-lbs total at RPM's below the point where the voltage limit of the pack comes in to play.

Now with a pair of Zilla's, one controller per motor you have:
2000A per motor or 600ft-lbs per motor (same blah blah as above)
This gives you a possible 1200ft-lbs total, but no limit to RPM's based on pack voltage.

What you are hoping for is a pair of Zilla's linked, with the motors in series (like the custom, one of a kind 4k Zilla you mentioned before)
4000A per motor or 1200ft-lbs per motor (just doubled the torque based on double current for simplicity, it's close but not exact)
This gives you a possible 2400ft-lbs total at RPM's below the point where the voltage limit of the pack comes in to play (just like the single controller example above)

The key to this increase is taking 2 Zilla's and making them act as one, it's the same reason that a pair of Soliton1's don't match the performance of a Zilla 2k (for drag racing anyways).

With enough cash perhaps Otmar would take your Zilla's and build you a 4k, I'm sure you're in a different class than those he already has ties to, and I'm sure it would be easier since he's done it once already. (I don't know what it would take but I would love to see a 4k in your car, if the batteries could handle the load it would just be a matter of you trying to put the power to the ground)

So in short what the 2nd Zilla gives you is more top end performance without having to do S/P switching of the motors. (Which you can no longer do in any form with 2 controllers) You have exactly the same performance off the line as a single controller and the motors in series.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow, this is creating a huge controversy. I have others that say you are incorrect, two separately wired controllers to two separate motors creates double the total amps. My analogy:

Two 350ci ICE pushing 600lbs of torque each, connected in tandem will create 1200lbs of torque. This analogy is fact.



rwaudio said:


> The problem is you aren't getting (the torque from) 4000A to the wheels.
> There are no published torque specs at those current levels so I am simply going to make up nice round numbers to make the math easy to follow.
> 
> With a single Zilla, and motors wired in series you have:
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*This was sent to me by someone I trust in the field:*

Ron,

If motors are connected in SERIES, then each motor sees the same current, but only half the voltage. If they are connected in PARALLEL, then each motor sees half the current, but full voltage. It is like a shift from first to second gear. It is much easier to look at the HP coming straight out of the controller(s) than on a motor by motor basis. Here is an analogy to a gas car.
GCAR1 has an engine that generates 500ft-lbs of torque and has a two speed gearbox, 2:1 and 1:1 (this is our 1 zilla analogy)
GCAR2 has an engine that generates 1000ft-lbs of torque and has a single speed gearbox, 1:1 (this is our 2 zilla analogy)
The differences above are the ONLY differences between the two cars. Both cars use a manual friction clutch, and have VERY low inertial engines and drivetrains. Think about how that race would pan out, and maybe that will help you understand the following too. 

Now with Electric Cars!
Car1 has 1 zilla and uses series parallel shifting
Car2 has 2 zillas, one per motor.
EVERYTHING else about the cars is identical, to keep thing simple.

We shall name specific times in the race as follows:
T0= start of the race
T1= When Car1 Battery voltage=Car1 motor voltage.
T2= Car1 shifts into parallel
T3= end of the race for Car2
T4=end of the race for Car1

Now we shall analyze each time period

T0-T1: Car1 and Car2 produce equal amounts of power and torque, and run neck and neck. This would happen for the first 2, maybe 2.5 seconds

T1-T2: Car1 series motor voltage is now equal to the battery voltage, and the motor current begins to drop, reducing power. This starts at T1, and continues until Car1 is producing HALF the hp of Car2. This time period is maybe a second long or so.

T2-T3: Car1 has NO power for the first 100ms or more while the zilla switches from series to parallel. Once the zilla kicks back in in parallel mode, power is restored, but CAR2 is much further down the track, and is making over twice the HP, and crosses the finish line first.

T3-T4. Car1 continues in parallel mode until it crosses the finish line. For three quarters of the race, CAR1 made less than half the horsepower of CAR2. The race was neck and neck off the line, but after that, it was a whole different story.

Wayland has tweaked his car to be as good as possible with a single zilla. This includes raising the voltage higher than the zilla likes. He would have a faster car with two zillas. Once you add two zillas, if your motor voltage limit is 170V, there is no need to run such a high voltage. 340V is about right actually. Wayland drops out of motor current limit only a few seconds into a run. This wouldn’t happen so soon if he had two zillas.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Wow, this is creating a huge controversy. I have others that say you are incorrect, two separately wired controllers to two separate motors creates double the total amps. My analogy:
> 
> Two 350ci ICE pushing 600lbs of torque each, connected in tandem will create 1200lbs of torque. This analogy is fact.


That works for ice, but the plain and simple fact is you have an 11" motor with 2000 Amps, (times 2) you are not putting 4000A to anything.
You are welcome to disagree with me, but it doesn't change the REAL ANSWER, just because you like another answer better doesn't make it RIGHT.

(I'm guessing you will have OVER 600ft-lbs of torque per motor, so OVER 1200ft-lbs of torque, the same you would have with a single Zilla with motors in series)

There are others on this forum that could probably give you a more in depth explanation, Major would be one of them, however I don't think that will happen and I don't blame him. So I'm simply trying to pass along what I learned from them, what you lose is I don't have the explanation behind it. But I think your project is awesome so I'll try to help regardless.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Wow, this is creating a huge controversy. I have others that say you are incorrect, two separately wired controllers to two separate motors creates double the total amps. My analogy:
> 
> Two 350ci ICE pushing 600lbs of torque each, connected in tandem will create 1200lbs of torque. This analogy is fact.


No controversy here. In his example he switches the way the zilla is wired during the drag run. At the beginning it is wired to give a full 2000 amps and half volts to each motor. At the point where the input voltage is too low to get the motors to draw more than 1000amps each a button is pressed causing the wiring to push full volts but half amps to each motor. It is referred to as a series parallel switch. Zombie has been doing it for years. You will have the advantage of not having to switch wiring mid run and have the associated dead time or extra contactors in circuit. You also have the advantage of motors designed for higher volts so you likely get more torque per amp. (correct me if I'm wrong on that guys) 

You will have more power, but most likely not twice the power.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *This was sent to me by someone I trust in the field:*
> 
> Ron,
> 
> ...



Perhaps it's simply miss communication because you just agree'd with what I said... Up to the RPM limits based on pack voltage both setups are the same.
I said the 2 Zilla setup has more high end power (just like you said).

The only thing you gain is top end, and that's a good thing for sure. But you do not have the same setup as the 4kA custom Zilla, that is what I was trying to get across.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay guys, thanks for your input.



rwaudio said:


> Perhaps it's simply miss communication because you just agree'd with what I said... Up to the RPM limits based on pack voltage both setups are the same.
> I said the 2 Zilla setup has more high end power (just like you said).
> 
> The only thing you gain is top end, and that's a good thing for sure. But you do not have the same setup as the 4kA custom Zilla, that is what I was trying to get across.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Read you private messages, I will give you a tad bit more info. I do not want to post publicly companies and names.


Interesting. Still hard to know exactly what goes wrong so I'll still refrain from speculating, but I can promise you that it's not the throttle signal.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, maybe something not wired or set correct when installed. Just trying to avoid any mistakes when I install the two Zilla 2k's to my motors. When I heard this problem, I was all over it, don't need one of my motors going kablewy!  



Qer said:


> Interesting. Still hard to know exactly what goes wrong so I'll still refrain from speculating, but I can promise you that it's not the throttle signal.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

"Sooo... Does these suicidal tendencies of yours manifest in any other way than trying to incinerate yourself in a burning car wreck?"

That does sound like a pitfall, Qer. Why would that happen to a motor that is fully loaded by the other motor on the same shaft and driving a transmission ? I could understand a motor fed full pack voltage over-reving and flying apart when there is no load attached or burning up when it sees full pack amperage from a standing stop, but in this case, the motor would already be turning because it is attached the the other motor already under control. So it can't runaway and fly apart because of the load, and it can't burn up the brushes because it is already spinning. As the controlled motor moved the brushes on the second motor into alignment with the comm, it would see full amps momentarily before breaking the circuit. Why would this lead to burning up the vehicle ?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dreamer said:


> That does sound like a pitfall, Qer. Why would that happen to a motor that is fully loaded by the other motor on the same shaft and driving a transmission ?


You're forgetting the human factor. Done right with perfect timing and if the contactor doesn't weld shut it will work, but it will also completely fail to do much of a difference since you can only throw in the second motor when it's pretty much too late. Remember that the advantage of an electric motor compared to an ICE is the brutal torque you get already at 0 RPM, by switching in the second motor when the torque is already dropping will probably be pretty much pointless.

Now insert the human factor. Don't you think the driver will be tempted to push it a wee bit earlier than considered safe if it might win the race? What will happen the race when he push it too early (or, of course, when the contactors a bit too worn out from the repeated torture), the contactors weld shut and he finds himself in a car that will keep accelerating as long as the back-EMF allows it?

That's where the burning wreck-part comes from. Eventually the car WILL stop, but the odds are that it will happen in a way that the driver didn't intended...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Qer said:


> You're forgetting the human factor. Done right with perfect timing and if the contactor doesn't weld shut it will work, but it will also completely fail to do much of a difference since you can only throw in the second motor when it's pretty much too late. Remember that the advantage of an electric motor compared to an ICE is the brutal torque you get already at 0 RPM, by switching in the second motor when the torque is already dropping will probably be pretty much pointless.
> 
> Now insert the human factor. Don't you think the driver will be tempted to push it a wee bit earlier than considered safe if it might win the race? What will happen the race when he push it too early (or, of course, when the contactors a bit too worn out from the repeated torture), the contactors weld shut and he finds himself in a car that will keep accelerating as long as the back-EMF allows it?
> 
> That's where the burning wreck-part comes from. Eventually the car WILL stop, but the odds are that it will happen in a way that the driver didn't intended...


OK, I thought you were talking about the motor or battery pack bursting into flames.

I did think about the contactor welding closed. I thought that was what the big red disconnect button was for.

My reason for this whole line of thinking was simply that MOST of the time, something like the Soliton Jr. -- a solid controller of high voltage but only 500A driving a single motor -- is adequate for running around town. It seems wasteful to spend an additional $1,000+ for a bigger controller or a second controller to run the second motor if it will be used only during heavy acceleration. This occurred to me when reading this EV Album entry, where he describes the second motor as only kicking in for acceleration but having its own separate battery pack and Curtis 1231:

http://www.evalbum.com/1978

The actual builder's webpage talks about the second motor only being used for accel: http://electricbluemotors.com/successes.html

I wondered if his second controller and battery pack were overcomplicating things just to get this "turbo boost" effect. To whit, is a controller really necessary when the situation really calls for full voltage and all the amps the pack has available ?

As far as the human factor goes, I admit that I was thinking there would be only a few hundredths of a second between the pedal engaging the controller and getting everything turning, and the pedal travel hitting the contactor and kicking in the second motor at full volts and amps. So the max torque from the first motor at only 500A from the controller would be boosted when the second motor kicked in at an uncontrolled 1000A. That still sounds like welding the contactor would be likely ?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dreamer said:


> I did think about the contactor welding closed. I thought that was what the big red disconnect button was for.


If you're going to cut thousands of Amps it won't be a red button anymore, more like a huge emergency breaker you tear loose with brute force and loads of amusing sparks. See Plasmaboys White Zombie web pages for pictures and some anecdotes...



dreamer said:


> My reason for this whole line of thinking was simply that MOST of the time, something like the Soliton Jr. -- a solid controller of high voltage but only 500A driving a single motor -- is adequate for running around town. It seems wasteful to spend an additional $1,000+ for a bigger controller or a second controller to run the second motor if it will be used only during heavy acceleration.


Yet people drive cars with V8, I6 and similar engines on several litres when they COULD get around with an I4 on less than 2 litres, but where's the fun in that? 

It might look wasteful to spend an additional $1000 to get an S1 instead of a Jr when a contactor could provide the same, and even more, power. However, if you instead consider the fact that spending an additional $1000 you not only get twice the current but also in a SAFE way! How many dollars is your life worth?



dreamer said:


> This occurred to me when reading this EV Album entry, where he describes the second motor as only kicking in for acceleration but having its own separate battery pack and Curtis 1231:


Forgive me, but that's just dumb. Back in 2008 they've could've got themselves a Zilla. Using dual Curtis and two packs like that is just cludgy and I seriously doubt it gives them better performance than a pure Lithium pack and a Z1k.



dreamer said:


> To whit, is a controller really necessary when the situation really calls for full voltage and all the amps the pack has available ?


If you cherish your life and also want all the potential charging cycles out of your pack, yep.



dreamer said:


> As far as the human factor goes, I admit that I was thinking there would be only a few hundredths of a second between the pedal engaging the controller and getting everything turning, and the pedal travel hitting the contactor and kicking in the second motor at full volts and amps. So the max torque from the first motor at only 500A from the controller would be boosted when the second motor kicked in at an uncontrolled 1000A. That still sounds like welding the contactor would be likely ?


A few hundredths of a second isn't enough, you have to wait until the controller has reached 100% (or at least close to 100%) pulse width which essentially means that the back-EMF (and thus RPM) is so high that the current through the internal resistance in the second motor will limit the current to acceptable levels.

If you slam the pedal all the way down at a red light the motors have barely started turning when the contactor engages, which means that the resulting current will be several kA. If you're lucky something will blow up in a safe way, if you're unlucky the contactor will weld shut immediately, the car will do a burn out from hell, keep burning out, burning the rubber off and keep thrashing wildly and totally out of control while you frantically try to get control over your car again.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I don't think they were turning the power on to spin the motors freely, just to check out the system. Their shop was loud at the time, and they did not realize one motor was spinning until a few seconds, by then it was too late. They have experience the company has been building ev's for years, but this new concept of adding more motors and controllers was new to them, they never thought the throttle control would be an issue.


Motors do not spin by themselves.

They connected everything.

What you described had the motor only electrically connected to one controller.

If that is true ... there is only one path for the electricity to get to the motor to spin it.

Ruling out sloppy work or incompetence... they must have intended to free spin the motor and blow it ... then they got exactly the result they intended ... An odd thing to do.

Loud shop makes no difference at all ... you described knowledgeable experienced professionals ... if they were doing any kind of test including an intentional blow the motor test ( ?? ) , they should have been watching their instruments ... loud shop makes no difference at all.



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I do not want to post publicly companies and names.


Why not? ... it might be useful for the DIY community here to get feedback about what shops are doing... intentional motor blow up tests might be useful for members to know.

Especially those out there who really push the limits ... quantifying the failure mode would be useful to other DIYers.



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, maybe something not wired or set correct when installed. Just trying to avoid any mistakes when I install the two Zilla 2k's to my motors. When I heard this problem, I was all over it, don't need one of my motors going kablewy!


If they wired it wrong ... that would be either sloppy work or incompetence ... costing them a perfectly good motor , and a pissed customer ... hopefully not indicative of the normal for that shop ... especially if they have been doing conversions for years.

The best case for what you described would be that they knew what they were doing ... and intentionally blew up the motor... maybe to quantify the failure mode... fragmentation pattern of the pieces or something


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

IamIan said:


> Why not? [reveal the shop]... it might be useful for the DIY community here to get feedback about what shops are doing... intentional motor blow up tests might be useful for members to know.
> 
> Especially those out there who really push the limits ... quantifying the failure mode would be useful to other DIYers.


Apparently the shop in question is owned by one of our dealers (originally EV Porsche, but that link seems to be dead, so... not sure what is going on there).

We have requested more information about this incident from the owner, Paul Liddle.

As of now we have no idea what went wrong here, but he is, apparently, using two Soliton1's to control two separate motors with a single throttle. We know of at least two other customers that have done this successfully - one with the motor shafts bonded together and the other with them driving each rear wheel independently (i.e. - as an electronic differential).

We can't imagine how one motor could overspeed while the other did nothing unless the two motors were supposed to be bonded together but weren't and throttle was applied. Even just a little bit of throttle with the motor current limit set to 1000A will result in near instantaneous overspeeding of an unloaded series motor.

But, this is purely conjecture. Perhaps I will hear from Paul later today and find out what is going on, but until then it is best to not speculate.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

I don not agree. Reality is rarely as exciting as speculation.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

I hope you received permission from Paul to post his information on this site. The problem was not caused by a "bad" controller, he thought maybe by wiring two controllers to one TPS the signal might have been wrong. Like I posted, the motors were NOT bonded together because the chain link was not installed at the time of this accident. When his tech turned the power on one motor blew. The other never moved. Maybe someone made a mistake in programing or wiring the controllers, that is WHY I wanted to keep names of parties involved private. 



Tesseract said:


> Apparently the shop in question is owned by one of our dealers (originally EV Porsche, but that link seems to be dead, so... not sure what is going on there).
> 
> We have requested more information about this incident from the owner, Paul Liddle.
> 
> ...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

No throttle was applied. Just power turned on.



Tesseract said:


> We can't imagine how one motor could overspeed while the other did nothing unless the two motors were supposed to be bonded together but weren't and throttle was applied. quote]


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

You ask why not???? Maybe because he does not want his name or shop mistakes posted publicly! Too late now.



IamIan said:


> Why not? ... it might be useful for the DIY community here to get feedback about what shops are doing... intentional motor blow up tests might be useful for members to know.
> 
> Especially those out there who really push the limits ... quantifying the failure mode would be useful to other DIYers.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ............................... Like I posted, the motors were NOT bonded together because the chain link was not installed at the time of this accident. When his tech turned the power on one motor blew. The other never moved. ..................................


Was the surviving motor attached to the load?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes, both motors were connected to their separate controllers, both were juiced, one controller sent one motor to the moon! No throttle was given, but both controllers were connected to the same TPS switch. 

I have no idea what went wrong, controller? human error? TPS? This is why I started this thread is to gain possibilities of what could have caused this problem? 

It is a good learning experience to learn from others problems, but names and companies should be kept silent. We are not on this forum to judge others actions and bash their companies. We are all here to teach and learn. 

This is a great place to learn, but the personal remarks and comments towards others should be kept off the board. I am one that needs to practice what i preach.



kek_63 said:


> Was the surviving motor attached to the load?


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

What I meant was.... If the survivor was attached to the transmission and the missing chain was for the coupler between the two motors, then the un-coupled motor was in a zero load situation. The tiniest "blip" of the throttle would have sent it into oblivion. (Previously pointed out by Jeff)

As has already been said - without being able to verify that both systems were wired and programed EXACTLY the same (and the TPS wired correctly to each controller) we can only speculate as to the source of the meltdown.

It is obvious though, that the melted motor received more juice than it needed

Later,
Keith


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I hope you received permission from Paul to post his information on this site.


No, I don't ask permission before I post. I'm a loose cannon like that.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> No, I don't ask permission before I post. I'm a loose cannon like that.


Don't blame you, Jeff. Right now I would say that you have a lot more at stake in this than Ron does.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

kek_63 said:


> Don't blame you, Jeff. Right now I would say that you have a lot more at stake in this than Ron does.


Perhaps, but I don't really see this as reflecting poorly on Paul... or, not yet, anyway. He likes to push the envelope and sometimes, as he has found, the envelope pushes back. 

Connecting two controllers to two motors is NOT a standard application of the Soliton1 (or any other controller, for that matter) so anyone that is contemplating doing that should contact the controller manufacturer first to make sure it isn't a disaster in the making.

We'd be happy to provide that sort of help to anyone using our controller. For people using the Zilla? Not so much.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Tess-Could one of the controllers been set for 0-5V throttle input and one set for 5V-0V? Could it be that there was slight throttle cable tension or some sort of throttle stop set on the potbox to keep it from zeroing out? Could it be aliens?  Any word from the guy who experienced the problem?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Tess-Could one of the controllers been set for 0-5V throttle input and one set for 5V-0V? Could it be that there was slight throttle cable tension or some sort of throttle stop set on the potbox to keep it from zeroing out? Could it be aliens?  Any word from the guy who experienced the problem?


We have heard back from him but not with any real detail as to what happened.

If the throttle is not at the zero position when the controller turns on then it ignores the throttle UNTIL it goes to zero.

We did have an option to invert the throttle signal for awhile, but I'm pretty sure we removed it on account of it being too much of a safety hazard (the internal circuit pulls down all unused inputs to ground, so a broken throttle wire with inverted throttle goes tits out - not good).

Given the sparse description of the setup (separate controllers driving two motors linked by a chain that wasn't connected), the only scenario I could imagine causing one motor to overspeed would be attempting to calibrate the throttle on the motor connected to the drivetrain but forgetting to disable BOTH controllers.

But Ron keeps saying the throttle wasn't touched. I doubt that is the actual case, but, well... until we get more detail from Paul it's all conjecture.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had quite a surprise once when I hooked up my throttle backwards to my Curtis AC 1238 and the motor went full throttle when I turned the key on. Luckily the controller still limited the RPM's and I was fast with the key. With as much protection this controller has built in I didn't think it would allow a full on power up like that.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> As of now we have no idea what went wrong here, but he is, apparently, using two Soliton1's to control two separate motors with a single throttle. We know of at least two other customers that have done this successfully - one with the motor shafts bonded together and the other with them driving each rear wheel independently (i.e. - as an electronic differential).


Thanks... that helps narrow it down allot more ... and is useful in that we know of at least those 2 other cases that worked ... which means something different must have happened to give different results.



Tesseract said:


> But, this is purely conjecture. Perhaps I will hear from Paul later today and find out what is going on, but until then it is best to not speculate.


I can 100% understand they might still be carefully examining the results and such ... That can take time ... I can respect that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> The problem was not caused by a "bad" controller, he thought maybe by wiring two controllers to one TPS the signal might have been wrong. Like I posted, the motors were NOT bonded together because the chain link was not installed at the time of this accident. When his tech turned the power on one motor blew. The other never moved. Maybe someone made a mistake in programing or wiring the controllers, that is WHY I wanted to keep names of parties involved private.





LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> No throttle was applied. Just power turned on.


 That doesn't seem to track???

The Controller is between the Batteries ( source of electricity ) and the motor ... if no throttle was applied ... and the controller did not malfunction ... there is no way for the motor to get electricity to move.

They might not have intended to give it throttle ... and if they wired it wrong ... it might be possible they unintentionally gave it throttle accidentally.

But any such wiring mistake ... would be something educational for others who might want to do something similar to learn from.



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> You ask why not???? Maybe because he does not want his name or shop mistakes posted publicly! Too late now.


I understand that ... but at least for me ... I recognize people are not perfect ... people make mistakes ... I personally respect people more who are honest and take responsibility for their mistakes ... allot more than people who try and hide their mistakes and pretend that they don't make any... especially if the person who made the mistake also explains what they have learned and or improved as a result.

For example:
I do not think less of Edison for not picking the correct filament material on the first try ... I do respect him more for how he reacted to the results he got ... even if they were not what he wanted... it is how he reacted , what he learned , and what he did with that data ... that is more important and more worthy of respect than if he had gotten the actual results he wanted the first try.

- - - - - - - - - - - 



Tesseract said:


> Perhaps, but I don't really see this as reflecting poorly on Paul... or, not yet, anyway. He likes to push the envelope and sometimes, as he has found, the envelope pushes back.


I agree.

I would further say ... even if it turned out to be 100% human error ... incorrectly done wiring , or operator error ... the question falls back to ... what was learned? ... what was improved as a result? ... etc.

By knowing what went wrong ... even if it was human error ... that benefits everyone who wants to do something similar... and I think it is valuable information to the DIY community.

When things go horribly wrong and react in unexpected ways ... it is those times that we learn something new ... about what we are doing or about ourselves.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm not sure what kind of throttle was used, but for the greater good I thought I'd post a caution. I foresee a possible problem with an inductive throttle. One way an inductive throttle could work (I think the Zilla with the inductive throttle option does it this way) is to send a pulse from the controller to the throttle. Pushing the pedal inserts some iron into a coil and changes the inductance. The return pulse gets stretched out, and by measuring this you can determine throttle position. Imagine now you have two controllers hooked up to the same inductive throttle position sensor. Both are sending out pulses. Depending on when the decaying pulse measurement was done, and when pulses were sent, I could see a situation where one controller thinks the throttle position is different than the other. Another bad scenario I could foresee is both controllers erroneously think the pedal is depressed further than reality. I would never wire up two controllers to a single inductive throttle position sensor.

For a potentiometer 0 to 5V kind of thing, it shouldn't be a problem (in theory at least).

For a Hall sensor I'm not sure -- it depends how much of the smarts was in the pedal and how much in the controller -- if I didn't understand the circuit perfectly I'd do 2 sensors (being a very cautious kind of guy). Perhaps the controller savvy folks could explain if a single Hall sensor for two controllers works OK and if that's true for all controllers that use Hall sensors.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Ron, 2000 Amps times two motors is a very exciting idea. I would urge you to start small, though, and work your way up. Just one of your 36V modules is enough to weld 1/4 inch steel. I'd urge you to wire up the minimum Volts the Zilla needs to run, wire up just one Zilla, and just one motor. Program the Zilla for minimum current, slow ramp rate, etc. Test the controller output on a lightbulb first, and verify the accelerator can vary the brightness as expected. Then spin the wheels slowly up in the air, and with that success slowly drive a victory lap (though slow, it'll be one of the best moments of your life). Then tackle that 2nd motor, test again, and then work up in Voltage.

I'd also urge you to have someone with expertise there before you wire anything up. You are working with lethal Voltage levels.


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm stumped why everyone thinks this is tricky to do. Each motor/controller is a complete, independent system. Each motor/controller with it's own tach sensor. Dual independent output throttle sensor. Test and tune them one at a time. It's not any harder than one motor, you just do everything twice.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well Jeff,

Actions speak louder than words, your actions might have caused Paul to lose some business. You can be a "loose cannon" all you want, but while doing so have respect for others business. I told you it was Paul having this problem in a private message and you post his name and business on the front page for all to see. That I do not agree with. 

In regards to the thread it opens some eyes to future mistakes and problems, a good learning experience. But, it could have been accomplished without specific names.

Just curious, why are the Soliton 1's on back order?



Tesseract said:


> No, I don't ask permission before I post. I'm a loose cannon like that.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you david,

We are taking all precations when wiring. 



DavidDymaxion said:


> Ron, 2000 Amps times two motors is a very exciting idea. I would urge you to start small, though, and work your way up. Just one of your 36V modules is enough to weld 1/4 inch steel. I'd urge you to wire up the minimum Volts the Zilla needs to run, wire up just one Zilla, and just one motor. Program the Zilla for minimum current, slow ramp rate, etc. Test the controller output on a lightbulb first, and verify the accelerator can vary the brightness as expected. Then spin the wheels slowly up in the air, and with that success slowly drive a victory lap (though slow, it'll be one of the best moments of your life). Then tackle that 2nd motor, test again, and then work up in Voltage.
> 
> I'd also urge you to have someone with expertise there before you wire anything up. You are working with lethal Voltage levels.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Not yet anyway????? So if it does reflect poorly on him or his business you will then see your mistake? I have always supported you Jeff, even when you took sides against me, now I am very disappointed with your actions.



Tesseract said:


> Perhaps, but I don't really see this as reflecting poorly on Paul... or, not yet, anyway.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I had quite a surprise once when I hooked up my throttle backwards to my Curtis AC 1238 and the motor went full throttle when I turned the key on. Luckily the controller still limited the RPM's and I was fast with the key. With as much protection this controller has built in I didn't think it would allow a full on power up like that.


Nope. No way in hell. One of the first safety features I added and it has never bugged. It's one of those things I verify very carefully as soon as I touch it since a bug there would be seriously bad.

However, noise on the signal or other unwanted changes could very well lead to the controller first deciding the throttle is ok and then applying power to the motor and as Tesseract already pointed out it won't take much throttle input to make an unloaded motor spin to Kingdom Come and beyond.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Just curious, why are the Soliton 1's on back order?


Ow, that's low!

Well, ignoring that, here's your answer:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53571


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Not yet anyway????? So if it does reflect poorly on him or his business you will then see your mistake? I have always supported you Jeff, even when you took sides against me, now I am very disappointed with your actions.


Ron, give up this moral high road act, you aren't fooling anyone. Any decent business man has no problem owning up to his mistakes. No one is perfect, and if he says "yup we screwed up, learned something, and won't do that again", no harm no foul. If he tries to cover it up and place blame where it doesn't belong that's what might harm his business.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

subscribing....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

No act, I treat my friends and customers with respect. My business has an A-rating in the BBB, there is a reason for that. Like I said, his name should have been kept silent, would you like your dealer to post your mistakes in an open forum? It's over now, whats done is done. Every time I spoke with Paul he always spoke so highly of EVNetics, not sure if he feels the same now. Should have never happened.



JRP3 said:


> Ron, give up this moral high road act, you aren't fooling anyone. Any decent business man has no problem owning up to his mistakes. No one is perfect, and if he says "yup we screwed up, learned something, and won't do that again", no harm no foul. If he tries to cover it up and place blame where it doesn't belong that's what might harm his business.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> subscribing....


Expecting excitement?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Like I said, his name should have been kept silent, would you like your dealer to post your mistakes in an open forum?


Most of us post our mistakes here, so others can learn. That's the point.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> would you like your dealer to post your mistakes in an open forum?


Nope. That's why we try to beat them to it. 

But seriously, the fact that this thread was even started kinda blew the whole secrecy, public comments like this:



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Read you private messages, I will give you a tad bit more info. I do not want to post publicly companies and names.


tends to make people curious and after that it was pretty much only a matter of time before someone would've managed to dig out the facts and found out what shop did it and what controllers were used. Better then to be open about it from the beginning than to behave like you have something to hide. Besides, I think that people in this forum are pretty fed up with companies lying and hiding things...

We've blown a few motors and other pieces of hardware as well, some by destructive tests and some because we fucked up. So what? Shit happens and that's how you learn. No need to make a scene about it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Apparently the shop in question is owned by one of our dealers (originally EV Porsche, but that link seems to be dead, so... not sure what is going on there).


I think he's had a number of different websites, this may be one of them
http://www.worldautoexotics.com/


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Expecting excitement?


yup 

Hoping to avoid that though.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

jrp3 said:


> most of us post our mistakes here, so others can learn. That's the point.




+1 .


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Read you private messages, I will give you a tad bit more info. I do not want to post publicly companies and names.


Ron... you outed us as the controller involved when you wrote this. If we find out what went wrong we will post it publicly, but not in this thread.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Jeff,

In no way did I mention your company, I never involved anyone here from EvNetics to get involved in this thread, it was meant to be an open subject of possibilities of what could have caused this type of problem. That is why I posted two types on throttle controls, one fits the Soliton, and the other a Zilla or Curtis. I never posted specifics, people could have thought I was talking about Curtis. You guys jumped in like I named Soliton. Anyways, lets just try and support each others companies, the support and respect must be kept between two professional establishments.




Tesseract said:


> Ron... you outed us as the controller involved when you wrote this. If we find out what went wrong we will post it publicly, but not in this thread.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> That is why I posted two types on throttle controls, one fits the Soliton, and the other a Zilla or Curtis.


I weren't aware of that there are throttle controls that doesn't fit the Soliton. Could you please be more specific?


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