# Scrape - my other E-bike project



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I know, I need another project like I need a hole in my head but here I go anyway...  

A while back, I purchased an old Ninja, with the intention of doing a little custom work and getting myself back on two (ICE-powered) wheels. Other than stripping the factory plastic off the bike, I haven't had time to do anything to it, other than the typical Todd artwork, to figure out where I wanted to go with it. Thursday, I had a kid from a local career-tech (high) school "shadow" me in the shop all day. As a reward for helping me with some of the more mundane fabrication tasks, I told him we could tear into the (partially disassembled) Ninja engine (which he had been eyeballing all day) after lunch. It supposedly just needs a head gasket to run...

About 15 minutes into it, I realized I wanted no parts of that mess! A motorcycle to me has always been a simple, deeply finned, air-cooled motor, under a nicely shaped fuel tank... This thing has pumps, tubes, hoses, wires, lines, and crap everywhere!

You guys have spoiled me, and won me over! I still want an ICE bike for long distance rides, but the plan for this one changed to an e-bike in the blink of an eye, after seeing all that BS. We finished by pulling the ICE, shoving it in a corner, and boxing up all the unnecessary crap that supports it.

Here's where I "think" I am going (this rendering is hotlinked to my site and will change as the project evolves):









The exact plan for this is still up in the air. All I know so far is it's going to be electric, I want to keep the budget as low as possible, and I want to use it to experiment with ideas. It will be the Todd version of Woody's Tractor Project. Range, practicality, racing, etc, are secondary concerns - the prime directive here is fun and learning. 

The first task is going to be finding a motor. I want something interesting, kind of unique, and hopefully cheap.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Very nice!
I see my little tractor has got to you a bit!

Hmmmm, motors. You could try that 11" for size....


Or maybe the 13", long ways, with a shaft drive to the rear wheel just for fun?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It will be the Todd version of Woody's Tractor Project.


Arch says "Will it have a winch in the back and weigh over half a ton?"


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the rendering was that epic picture of the guy planking on top of a Vincent Black Lightning while hurtling across the Salt Flats at 150mph. This, of course, well before planking became an internet phenomenon...

And, yeah, you might be spreading yourself thin there, Todd... How many projects do you have going on now? 5?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Very nice!
> I see my little tractor has got to you a bit!...


Thanks Woody! Yup! It's just too much stinkin fun - no worrisome practical this and that - just kick back and enjoy. Schism is close, but it still ended up being one of the proof of concept vehicles for our G-bucket line, restricting me somewhat with regard to total freedom. Of course maximum enjoyment, for me, means pure design - notice there's not exactly a lot of room for batteries?  






Woodsmith said:


> ...Hmmmm, motors. You could try that 11" for size....
> 
> Or maybe the 13", long ways, with a shaft drive to the rear wheel just for fun...


Lol! Ideally, I would use an Impluse 9" motor, but that violates my cheap rule. I've been watching eBay like a hawk, waiting to find something out of the ordinary... Contrary to the cheap rule, I do have a Soliton Jr in the rendering, mainly because I love those sculptured cases. 






Woodsmith said:


> Arch says "Will it have a winch in the back and weigh over half a ton?"


Rofl!  It's Todd's interpretation of Woody style fun project Arch - meaning it will be featherweight and need to be towed (due to limited range) more than be able to tug on something! 





Tesseract said:


> The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the rendering was that epic picture of the guy planking on top of a Vincent Black Lightning while hurtling across the Salt Flats at 150mph. This, of course, well before planking became an internet phenomenon...


Hey, that's actually a compliment, of sorts - that it even brought to mind a Vincent - thanks!  I might have to explore that idea - a 21st century Vincent E-bike concept (planking on it at 150 is optional, but highly desirable)...





Tesseract said:


> ...And, yeah, you might be spreading yourself thin there, Todd... How many projects do you have going on now? 5?


Well, technically, "I" only have two active projects - this one and Schism. Scratch is on hold until I can afford to spend a lot of money on something completely unnecessary, to do it how I want to to do it. Schism may actually end up belonging to the Inhaler Project.

The original Inhaler, now the Model E, is no longer my personal responsibility and a majority of the work being done on it is by that business' team, under my supervision, as managing partner.

That's work, this is play! . So, the correct answer, on a personal note, may soon be "one!"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...a Vincent Black Lightning...


Back to this thought, I was working on a version of this theme with the e-Vtwin I had come up with for Scratch, using two small motors and a customized shaft drive motorcycle rear diff as the "crankcase". It looks absolutely killer, IMO, but I stopped myself because it was taking me _there_ (the land of Todd style excess) again. Now, I can't stop thinking about it!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

For those that might not know about the famous ride:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollie_Free
http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2010/minibikemadness

I want a pit bike for restroom and food jaunts -- boy was that fun cruising around on the Salt Flats 2 years ago on borrowed pit bikes (one was Mike Willmon's mini electric chopper, another an electric scooter, and a 3rd was a gas minibike).


Tesseract said:


> The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the rendering was that epic picture of the guy planking on top of a Vincent Black Lightning while hurtling across the Salt Flats at 150mph. This, of course, well before planking became an internet phenomenon...
> 
> And, yeah, you might be spreading yourself thin there, Todd... How many projects do you have going on now? 5?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Out with the ICE...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Out with the ICE...


Wow - you can certainly see that the engine is a "stressed member" on these bikes, eh?

Oh, and yeah, it's never a bad thing to be compared to the Vincent Black Lightning... Not in my book, anyway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You had to know this was coming... 








I decided to take a second look at the V-motor idea. When considering it for Scratch, which is purposely an over the top project, I was planning to either machine a custom case to hold dual pinions on a common automotive ring gear, or cut and splice a second pinion carrier onto a motorcycle differential. Either way was a lot of work, a lot of CAD/CNC, and custom fabrication. I wanted to see if I could reduce the cost and time to something reasonable.

This idea uses two complete motorcycle rear differentials facing each other, and mounted to a simple (as possible) fabricated structure. One of the differentials would be turning in reverse but, again, this isn't a race bike - it's for fun. Worse case it wears the gears prematurely and I have to replace them once in a while, I think. A fringe benefit in the idea is the offset created, which (along with the additional height of mounting the motors on top of the pinion supports) allows me to run a narrow, American V-twin style, 45-degree angle. In Scratch, I was also going to machine the pinion gears to allow me to mount the motors directly on the housing. That was to fit in Scratch's ultra low profile, but it also increased the angle of the motors to about 70-degrees. The radial triple version was a massive spread.

Here, the two diffs would turn a common sprocket, that would turn a jackshaft. With a little creative fabrication, I may be able to make that whole setup mimic the Harley style separate transmission.

I prefer permanent magnet motors, so I can have aluminum cases. Brushed motors might be more fitting, especially if a little arcing can be seen through the openings!  Of course Mars motors would be ideal, but they also add a lot to the initial cost. I might be able to find some old PM motors on eBay, and replace them with Mars motors later or make my own aluminum cases (with lots of fins) for them later...






Tesseract said:


> Wow - you can certainly see that the engine is a "stressed member" on these bikes, eh?...


Yup. That's what all the black around the motor in the rendering was for - a frame structure to replace the stressed engine, and mount the electric drive components - stylishly, of course... 





Tesseract said:


> ...Oh, and yeah, it's never a bad thing to be compared to the Vincent Black Lightning... Not in my book, anyway.


Agree 100%.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Main project rendering updated:








You see should a V-motored version here and in the 1st post - if not clear your cache (hold down shift or control and refresh)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

To (hopefully) prove that I have a tiny bit of sanity left, and to demonstrate the versatility of the concept, I explored what Scrape would look like as a more traditional e-bike; _i.e._, one with room for batteries.








This would be a frame made to bolt in place of the original ICE, that holds a battery case and single, direct drive, electric motor - as simple as it gets.

It also brings out another benefit of Scrape's overall design, based on the tubular stressed-engine-member Ninja chassis. I can build a variety of electric drivetrains, all on their own bolt-in subframe, and swap them out when I'm in the mood for something different.  It also made me think about selling an e-bike kit based on this concept, alongside the Inhaler Project's kit cars...

No, I don't know how to _just relax and have fun_ - that always ends up looking like some kind of business opportunity or lesson to me - at least that's what my ex-wife said...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> This idea uses two complete motorcycle rear differentials facing each other, and mounted to a simple (as possible) fabricated structure. One of the differentials would be turning in reverse but, again, this isn't a race bike - it's for fun. Worse case it wears the gears prematurely and I have to replace them once in a while,


Just thinking about the gears.
Not looked inside one but if they have straight cut gears then there wouldn't be much problem running backwards. If they are helical then one of the pinions would be trying to 'screw' itself off the ring gear while the other is 'screwing' itself in.

If you are designing a casing for them then you could have both ring gears facing the same way on a common shaft with the sprocket on the end outside the case.

Could also peg the ring gear to allow it to handle more torque. Not sure if you are familiar with the term, but you may know the principle.
Here's a UK video about pegging Land Rover diffs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...If you are designing a casing for them then you could have both ring gears facing the same way on a common shaft with the sprocket on the end outside the case...


I was trying to avoid designing and fabricating a new case to make it an "easy" kind of throw it together project, for fun, but that's not playing out. I also realized, after looking at some diffs on eBay, that the offset would be much wider than I want.

I if do end up designing and building a custom case, I would probably go back to the original idea of having two pinions turn the same ring gear, and see how long it would take to destroy that!  The task would still be much simpler than on Scratch because I can simply couple the motor to the end of the pinion shaft, instead of trying to attach the gear to the motor shaft (to get it low enough) and make it line up properly again.

My thoughts on that were to buy two diffs, build a fixture and cut the pinion support from one and fit/weld it into the other. I would have to buy one and pull it apart to see if it would work...






Woodsmith said:


> ...Could also peg the ring gear to allow it to handle more torque...


Not sure if that would work in one of these, but it's worth looking into since either way I'm asking it to do more than it was designed for. If I end up doing a custom case that could be designed into it.

Keep it coming - _my_ gears are turning!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the midst of some other CAD stuff I was working on today, I decided to see how many, and what type of, cells I could fit in my preferred (V-motor) version of Scrape. The results are a little surprising, and encouraging. 








These are Turnigy Nano-tech cells. It's a little, 1S/2P, two cell module. 192 modules, for 384 cells total. It's about a 4kwh, almost 200hp, pack, with more voltage and amps than I can use, no matter how I wire them; based on the needs of two 72v/400a Mars motors. That's also enough for 20 miles (80% DOD), or more, of range - much more than I expected. It could be higher because I don't see where this thing would weigh more than 300lbs, and that could mean less than the 150 wh/mi I figure I used.

The one glitch is the controller - I didn't leave room for it.  In the Photoshop renderings, I had it behind the glass bubble under the seat, but here that's full of cells. The one place I have in mind, depending on what I would do for the V-motor setup is behind the ring and pinion case. That black section behind it is just the subframe for the drive assembly. I might be able to design it so the controller fits inside there.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Very nice!

Get an unbalanced motor and you'd have a nice "Harley" shake! (Just kidding!)

I had great fun tonight snapping together the Headway cell holders, and I think I can get more cells in less space than I thought in my Porsche, I'm excited about that! Little cells are nice for packaging.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Get an unbalanced motor and you'd have a nice "Harley" shake! (Just kidding!)
> 
> I had great fun tonight snapping together the Headway cell holders, and I think I can get more cells in less space than I thought in my Porsche, I'm excited about that! Little cells are nice for packaging.


Thanks David.  This one is a keeper. It's a motorized cycle, with great emphasis on the motor part. It's actually a part of a bigger business concept that I have been toying with (more than just vehicles or electric vehicles). I need to start shopping the whole concept around now to find the right partners.

Agreed - little cells make packaging much easier. They're worth the hassle of the extra connections to me. These darn Turnigy cells are incredible! They're up to 65-130c now!  Cycle life probably sucks, but I can see the day where I'll be able to put a 100 mile pack in this bike, if technology keeps growing at this pace.





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Get an unbalanced motor and you'd have a nice "Harley" shake! (Just kidding!)...


Lol, I'll stick to balanced motors that stay together for a while! Maybe I can put some french fry grease in a little container that drips on the ground when it's not running! 

One thing I would like to experiment with is lower frequencies in the controller. I had this idea with the Inhaler waaayyy back, and I'm still curious what it would sound like. Maybe I'll find a way to experiment with this one. I noticed in the thread with the guy who did the DIY AC drive in a Chevy Express van, he had a low-pitched sound in his videos - I liked it. I think his frequency is around 2K? I know AC sounds different, but in theory is should work with DC too...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> This would be a frame made to bolt in place of the original ICE, that holds a battery case and single, direct drive, electric motor - as simple as it gets.
> 
> It also brings out another benefit of Scrape's overall design, based on the tubular stressed-engine-member Ninja chassis. I can build a variety of electric drivetrains, all on their own bolt-in subframe, and swap them out when I'm in the mood for something different.  It also made me think about selling an e-bike kit based on this concept, alongside the Inhaler Project's kit cars...


Awesome look, and concept. One question, I see rear pegs, but no seating position for a passenger.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Awesome look, and concept. One question, I see rear pegs, but no seating position for a passenger.


Thanks J!  I either forgot to explain that here, or it got lost in my usual drivel.

The passenger seat is a "rumble" seat that folds out of the main seat. No, it probably won't be comfortable - not the point here. The rider's seat probably won't be either because most of the space for padding will be consumed by the hidden passenger's seat.

This all gives the bike the solo streetfighter look, while retaining the ability to accommodate some of the finer things in life. The hidden seat is also why there aren't any batteries (or electronic components) in that area. I left the rear pegs exposed because I like the Ninja's peg/bracket assemblies, and it prompts people to ask - like you did.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The passenger seat is a "rumble" seat that folds out of the main seat. No, it probably won't be comfortable


Better than riding on the tire  Neat concept, I didn't think you'd leave out the babe seating


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Better than riding on the tire  Neat concept, I didn't think you'd leave out the babe seating


 Nope!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well you were at it persuading me I needed a honey seat...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Well you were at it persuading me I needed a honey seat...


I am a very unbalanced individual. Three-quarters of my brain is preoccupied with design (work), the other quarter is obsessed with "honey". That's it - that's all there is...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A new bright idea.  I started thinking about the battery packs, controller, and motor as a whole - a replacement for the ICE. The thought was centered around two basic ideas: using the batteries to create the V-twin image, and making better use of the available real estate.








This allows a conventional, drive-drive motor, with the controller attached to the front of it, and V-cased batteries over that. The cylindrical cases kill the space, so I decided to try cubes, as a modern take on the old V-twin look.

With a custom controller/case, what's interesting here is the power would flow from batteries, to controller, to motor, all inside one assembly. Busbars could be used instead of cables, because of the short, dedicated, runs. The cubes would be detachable, so the batteries can be replaced and upgraded, without affecting the whole assembly. I could also have spares, and a compact charger that would let me take a couple cubes inside and charge them anywhere there's a plug.

The capacity is down a bit, from 4kwh to 3.4kwh, but I would rather leave it like that and wait for technology to provide better energy density. It's 18 miles (at 80% DOD) instead of 20 - I can live with that for a while... I could have stuffed more under the seat, but that would infringe on the whole "making better use of the available real estate" thing. As it is, I can stuff a charger, dc-dc, etc, under the main skin.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Possible issue with solid buss bars in that they will transmit vibration to each terminal.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You could use over sized cables from the sides of the pack, looping down under the front of the controller area, so they look like exhaust headers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback guys! 



JRP3 said:


> Possible issue with solid buss bars in that they will transmit vibration to each terminal.


Point taken. I have no issues with using cables, if they're better in a given circumstance. I was just noting a possibility - could be a bad one. When I finally settle, 100%, on a design and start modeling the enclosures and internal systems, I would be eternally grateful for input.

Just for clarification, I was thinking along the lines of a custom built Open Revolt type controller, where the main busbars that normally poke through the case poke up to the point where the battery cubes mount, serving as the actual contacts. Similarly, if the motor actually bolts to the controller case, the output busbars could be bolted directly to the motor terminals.

If those are stupid ideas, I can change and adapt without too much emotional damage. 






Woodsmith said:


> You could use over sized cables from the sides of the pack, looping down under the front of the controller area, so they look like exhaust headers.


As noted it would be all internal, whether cables or busbars. I have this thing about making stuff so clean it looks nonfunctional...  The stands that the battery box cubes are sitting on, are for the enclosed electrical connections, as much as aesthetics.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That last CAD-Photoshop composite I did was inadvertently lost, because some dummy forgot to click save.  When it asked if I wanted to save it I remember, thinking I already saved it - "no". Doh! 

So I started over today, working on the concept of a complete EV drivetrain, packaged as a V-twin. I had been working mostly in Photoshop on that idea, and as soon as I got started in CAD I realized that I had been thinking in two dimensions. I totally missed the opportunity to expand laterally.








Cell count is up to 504 (252, 2pk Turnigy modules). That gives a 5.2kwh pack, and 27 miles of range at 80% DOD. It's 233 volts nominal, 1,430 amps at the 65c rating/2,860 amps at the 130c!!!  The design is based on an Impulse 9, with Woody's idea of the chain running inside the DE cap (sprocket replacing the internal fan).

The drivetrain assembly is about 12" wide and even with the low clearance and ride height it has about 40-degrees of lean before the motor touches (nice place for "frame" sliders).


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The design is based on an Impulse 9, with Woody's idea of the chain running inside the DE cap (sprocket replacing the internal fan).


That's a neat idea. Do you plan to run a dry chain or a belt?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> That's a neat idea. Do you plan to run a dry chain or a belt?


Thanks Malcolm (bounce credit to Woody). I would prefer a belt in there, to not have a mess, but this thing probably needs a chain. With a 9" motor and LiCo cells, I might create more damage with broken belts than messy chain lube. It's not like I have enough self-control to not abuse it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You can make a 'slinger' disc to go on the armature side of the sprocket and set up the airflow to enter at the comm end and exit at the drive end. That should keep any lube out of the electrics.

Shouldn't need much lube anyway, just a regular lube and clean at the end of each long ride.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You can make a 'slinger' disc to go on the armature side of the sprocket and set up the airflow to enter at the comm end and exit at the drive end. That should keep any lube out of the electrics.
> 
> Shouldn't need much lube anyway, just a regular lube and clean at the end of each long ride.


Yeah, I think I remember you talking about the slinger disc before. That's the way I'll go, with a good, non-slinging, chain lube. I wonder it my CAD software will let me put airflow on a spinning model to see how well it flows the cooling air, then splash oil on the other side to see if it keeps the arm clean!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've had this 11" diameter poster board mock-up motor floating around for the past year or so, first in the Model E, then in Schism. This week we had to move it to get the real steel fabrication work started on Schism, and it looked lonely sitting on the shop floor by itself - so I decided to see if Scrape could accomodate an 11" motor!  The funny thing is it actually fits pretty good using Woody's idea of putting the sprocket inside, in place of the fan. If you squint and imagine the two V-configuration battery boxes over it, filling up the frame... 








As fascinating as the thought is, 250 pounds of motor, plus another 75-100 in batteries, controller, dc-dc, charger, etc, and the chassis, and it wouldn't exactly be a sporting machine anymore. It would have to be more of a chopper/street-legal dragbike style, sacrificing handling for an ultra-low, stretched, chassis - for stability. I'm not sure I want that...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You. Are. Mad! 


But it is fun playing with ideas and mock ups.
I think with an 11" there wouldn't be the space to get the pack in proportion. They would look a little squashed in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You. Are. Mad!
> ...


Why, thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I think with an 11" there wouldn't be the space to get the pack in proportion. They would look a little squashed in.


Only one way to find out:








Surprisingly, it seems to work very well. I just rotated the "V" forward a little, and mounted them on the controller case instead of the little cylinders. My Photoshop rendering is actually off a little. The part where the bodywork rolls forward (where your belly would hit it) is too gradual of a curve. If you look at the pics of the actual Ninja frame, you can see that it's more vertical and a tighter angle there. So, the rear box would tuck into there and the front box would lay forward a bit.

The only real issues are the weight, and the fact that it limits cornering clearance from about 40-degrees of lean angle to about 25-degrees. Machining a flat on bottom of the comm and drive end caps could probably increase that to around 30-degrees.

The funny thing is it would make the bike much cheaper to build, initially, because 11" forklift motors seem to be a dime a dozen. Finding a cheap Impulse 9-sized motor, not so much.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I just typed and posted this, and because in the first post of this thread/project, I said:


toddshotrods said:


> ...All I know so far is it's going to be electric, I want to keep the budget as low as possible, and I want to use it to experiment with ideas. *It will be the Todd version of Woody's Tractor Project*. Range, practicality, racing, etc, are secondary concerns - the prime directive here is fun and learning.
> 
> The first task is going to be finding a motor. I want something interesting, kind of unique, and hopefully cheap.


...I think I am actually going do this - just because I. Am. Mad.!

It just makes sense, because it's actually cheaper to throw together, and it makes me giggle.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You really must be mad if you are using me as a positive example!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You really must be mad if you are using me as a positive example!


You mean you're just beginning to figure that out?!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You mean you're just beginning to figure that out?!


No, I just didn't figure you were that much more mad then me!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Cool you have childhood movies just like mine - ahhh, the good old days in the swaddling clothes and playrooms! 

I showed the renderings to Team Inhaler (in our daily email), and asked them if they wanted to build e-bikes too, or just stick to hot rods - four of the core members replied pretty quickly and enthusiastically in favor of bikes...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Given I have a motorbike license I have been tempted to look at a bike too. 
I just don't like riding them in traffic, or at speed, or in bad weather, or in baking sun with full leathers on....


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

Re the loony bike - somebody here has put a V8 in his!

Not sure about - keeping it low for stability - 
if you keep it low it becomes more unstable - 
better off letting it get a bit higher 
You will be able to see more when riding it as well


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd...
> 
> Not sure about - keeping it low for stability -
> if you keep it low it becomes more unstable -
> better off letting it get a bit higher...


Hey Duncan. No disrespect intended, but are you a "classically trained" engineer? Second question: have you ever ridden a lowered motorcycle?

The reasons I ask are that sounds like something my engineering buddies would say (I have quite a few of them here in Columbus). They're always telling me that something I've been doing successfully for the past two or three decades won't work. I used to explain and debate, now I just smirk and they get that it's something I know very well, from experience. We have a handful of engineering student interns on Team Inhaler and I love teaching them all my bad habits; and can't wait to hear the reports of them smirking in class when their professors teach them all the things they can't do, that they've already done. 

Anyway, back to the point, most of the bikes I have owned were street-legal dragbikes; some short, some stretched. All of them were an absolute joy to ride, and completely stable. The only drawback is reduced cornering clearance, but that just means you ride them like a cruiser or chopper - not quite so fast around corners. As for being seen, in my experience (actually been hit by a car, run off the road, cars pulled out in front of me, etc) they aren't going to see you anyway. Most people in cars and trucks seem to only notice other cars and trucks. A motorcycle is so narrow and short that it doesn't often "register" as something they should be concerned with - they don't really "see" you. Also, people who don't actually ride are usually unaware of how quickly that single headlight can accelerate towards them.

My solution is defensive riding - I *make* them see me, and/or make myself completely "unavailable" for the harm they could cause me.

Yesterday, I was going through downtown Columbus, in the left lane, and some yo-yo dipped across my path from the right lane, into the left turning lane, and straight through the intersection (made a left "turn") - he just suddenly rode a complete 45-degree angle straight across five lanes of traffic and onto another street!  I will admit that initially, I didn't even see him. I really didn't notice him until he was into the turning lane barreling diagonally through a major intersection. I was admittedly, a little out of focus, due to something pleasant I saw on the sidewalk. As soon as I realized what happened, I looked in my rearview mirror, curious about whether it was really necessary - there wasn't a car close to me, in either lane! He could simply have slowed a little and dipped behind me, and I would never even have been aware that he was there. If I had decided to accelerate at that point, to make sure I made it through the green light, he could have been roadkill.  He was on a very tall, colorful, dual-purpose bike, btw. I am also normally aware of what's around me (not just the pleasant things on the sidewalk), especially motorcycles, and especially in downtown because of all the (pedal) bikers and bike lanes, which makes me believe he must have come from way back there somewhere, accelerating as quickly as he could to beat me to the intersection.


More to the point: Scrape is already lowered three inches - that's a given. You can see this in the fork tubes - the fork tubes are sticking three inches up out of the upper triple clamp - that's how much the tubes will be pulled down, internally. What I was referring to was lowering it a couple more inches, but the motor is already right where I want it in the chassis, and it's already the lowest point. I also decided not to stretch it, and embrace the challenge of riding a high-powered, short, lowered, streetbike - again. I had a handful of streetbikes set up like this and they were a joy to ride, because they are a bit more responsive in handling, as compared to the lowered _and_ stretched bikes. My (light) weight also seems to work to my advantage on them because I can get just enough wheel spin, on launch, to keep the front wheel close to the ground. The last one I (drag)raced was a friend's lowered GSXR 1100. It picked the front wheel up about six inches, sat it down after I got off the pad and banged second, and then just accelerated like a rocket through the traps. Good times...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Hey Duncan. No disrespect intended, but are you a "classically trained" engineer? Second question: have you ever ridden a lowered motorcycle?

The reasons I ask are that sounds like something my engineering buddies would say (I have quite a few of them here in Columbus). They're always telling me that something I've been doing successfully for the past two or three decades won't work. I used to explain and debate, now I just smirk and they get that it's something I know very well, from experience._ 

Hi Todd - guilty as charged M'lud (engineer)

Lowered (and low) HPV's only

The stability thing is theoretical - I have not had any problems with stability even on the low ones
BUT going lower does NOT make it more stable!

My experience of low bikes (HPV's) - riding with my mates, them talking about what was over the hedge - and I could not see over the thing!

Stopping was more of a hassle - your side supports (legs) were not under you as well it was easier to have your foot slip and have an embarrassing oops

On my mountain bike I could see over the top of most cars (UK) - on the HPV -No way

I agree with your comments about visibility - most people seem to look past bikes

Normal motorbikes - some experience
The biggest hassle I have had has been ground clearance!

Some normal motorbikes have so little ground clearance that they bottom on almost any corner

- The worst I rode was a Harley - it was awful!

I know lowered does not mean less ground clearance - but it often does!

I hate that feeling when you touch the ground and start to unload your tire

I think of bikes as fun machines to sweep down twist roads - reduced height reduces your forwards visibility and reduced ground clearance means you can't crank it over as far


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> - The worst I rode was a Harley - it was awful!


Same here. Awful bike, awful company, awful owners club.

I was sold a brand new delivery mileage bike that I paid £14k for and it had broken headstock bearings, missing heatshield, misfiring, low power, oil leaks, very low tire pressures, loose hand grips and a whole host of other problems.

I was a novice on my first bike and could have had a serious accident driving it home like that. The dealer never rectified the faults until I found another dealer who refused to test ride the bike as it was dangerous. Harley then refused to rectify the faults under guarantee so I had to pay for it. They also refused to acknowledge any correspondence other then to send me owners club membership forms and pin badges! Neither the UK nor US owners clubs would talk to me unless I paid them lots of membership money and accepted even more pin badges!

Taking off and nuking the company from orbit would be too good for them!

Sorry for the hijack Todd, I just hate Harley Davidson with a vengence.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Edit: the following is not about your experience Woody - you clearly got a bad product and horrible service. I still wouldn't blame that entirely on H-D, just the people you specifically dealt with. I have never had a Harley. I thought about it but never seriously considered buying one. I rode one for an afternoon, and had a lot of fun on it. I have some friends who have them, currently, with the exact opposite experience you had...

Yeah, uh, Harley-Davidson issues aside, it's all in how you build it. Geometry can be designed to make the bike a joy to ride - for its intended purpose. If you get on a cruiser, chopper, dragbike, or touring bike, and try to lay it over in a corner you're going to be disappointed. That's as silly as taking an SUV through the autocross and saying it sucks because an M3 had better times and was more controllable. The real question is why did you buy an SUV to go autocrossing? If you can enjoy it how it was designed to be used, you'll have a blast. I happen to love a few forms of motorcycling, equally. I like pitching a sporting bike through the twisties, I like just cruising on low and/or stretched out bikes, and I (used to) like the challenge of launching a dragbike.

I don't have to have one bike that does everything, and my intentions for Scrape are more along the lines of how you would use a chopper. Notice I said chopper, not just a cruiser or H-D. Choppers (and some street-legal dragbikes) are bikes that are just fun to be on - if it's something you enjoy. They provide as much of a sensation and thrill at 15mph as they do at 65mph. No, you can't get around a tight bend worth a crap but again, if it's something you can appreciate, you won't care about that because the incredible feeling it _is_ giving you.

I'm not talking about anyone here specifically, but it always amazes me that humans have a hard time acknowledging the value of things they can't comprehend or appreciate - and often go to the other extreme of proclaiming that it's "crap" - because _they_ don't have an appreciation for it. I have never been one for knitting or crocheting but had a couple aunts that did. I could never say that their hobby was crap because their faces had the same peace and contentment that mine probably had when I was blasting down the 1/4-mile, or cruising through town, on my dragbikes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As much fun as it was entertaining the thought of stuffing a big 11" motor on Scrape, eventually, I began to realize that it was totally contrary to what I want in this bike. I don't really care about making big power, or wowing people with a massive drivetrain. It was also adding up to be a heavy little beast. My original goal was for a lightweight, aesthetically balanced, total package - more charming than domineering. Tesseract's Vincent comment was exactly what I would like to evoke.

I was searching for a big motor the whole time, but every time I saw one, and started thinking about making it work, I kind of cringed inside - knowing that it was somehow not really what I wanted to accomplish; especially for that much work.

I have always been impressed with Ripperton's project, especially with the fact that he's able to accomplish so much with a single Mars motor. Tonight, I found the leftover piece of cardboard concrete form, and mocked a smaller motor on Scrape - bingo! My mind instantly saw what I'm really after, and started to fill in the rest. Using my polycarbonate clock dome idea, from Schism, but for the battery box covers, and continuing with the concept of the whole drivetrain forming the image of the V-twin, and the Vincent comment in mind, I modeled.









I love it!  Because the Mars motor is already nice looking, and the poly domes would add a serious aesthetic component, I wouldn't have to go to such serious extremes on the subframe and controller case. The controller can actually be an individual component mounted on the subframe, rather than built into it. A Soliton Jr would probably fit and look awesome down there.

18 Headway H-38120HP cells would fit in each dome, for 57.6 volts and 400 amps - a perfect starter system, with an Alltrax 48v controller (I actually already have one - only 300a, but good enough to make it move). Future upgrades could use something like A123 cylindrical cells, and a Soliton Jr, easily doubling the voltage and current, for a nice peppy little bike. What I love most of all is it would be very lightweight, and narrow. So far, the range is down (about 7 miles with the Headways and figuring 100 watt-hrs per mi due to the light weight), but A123s should help in that respect too. It's too late to get serious about crunching numbers to figure that out.

More to come, including trying Jr in the model (Tess how about an STL or something of the exterior case? ), possibly starting the real CAD models for the subframe, cutting a foam mock-up ME-1003, and a couple mock-up domes, mock-up subframe parts from MDF, etc. On the days where I have more Team Inhaler hands on deck than I can use on Schism, we might start working this out. The sudden emphasis on developing a realistic mock-up is because we have an event scheduled for September 29th, and I wouldn't mind spicing up our display with a 21st century, e-Vincent style, bike. 

As mentioned, I have the Alltrax. I also have a little Pro-Tech 48v permanent magnet motor, that's 4.5" diameter, with (I believe) a Mars style mounting face. I can hide that inside a foam or wood Mars mock-up motor, and actually make this thing putt around, scooter style.  We could also 3D print a plastic "motor case"... The point would be to make it as realistic as possible, with mock-up parts that could simply be unbolted and replaced with the real deal later...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the pack in the glass domes and can imagine the flashing LEDs of the BMS in the top under glass.

I think it is a good move to look back at a smaller motor set up as it means you get a working bike that does what you need instead of a heavy weight that might be hard work to use.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like the pack in the glass domes and can imagine the flashing LEDs of the BMS in the top under glass....


Thanks Woody.  I definitely, also, see some type of sci-fi type lighting inside those domes!  I'm not sure about running BMS, and don't know if I could fit 18 boards in side there. I'll have to sketch-model a Mini BMS board and see. That might be kind of cool, but things could get cramped if there are more A123 cells later...





Woodsmith said:


> ...I think it is a good move to look back at a smaller motor set up as it means you get a working bike that does what you need instead of a heavy weight that might be hard work to use.


It was starting to become something that would have been fun to look at, and do a couple burnouts on, but not so much to ride. A motorcycle is for riding, and feeling "free" on.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Do you guys think this little puppy would be strong enough to move a ~250lb bike, at say wheelchair or small electric scooter speeds? It's about 7.5" long and 4.7" diameter, totally sealed, but Class H insulation...
































It's the little motor I bought for the Inhaler Model E's motor cooler. It would just be a temporary deal, to make it move until I get a real Mars motor (this would be wrapped in a faux Mars "case" to mock-up the bike.

Is 31.4 amps enough to move it? Is that similar to what a wheelchair or scooter would use for current? I don't want to push it too hard and wipe out the magnets, when I know I'm going to replace it later, and might still use it for the motor cooler on the Model E's big 13" motor.

If it will work I might cut the faux case tomorrow, and start working on the mounts, etc.

A 10-tooth front sprocket would get me up to around 5:1 gearing, and since the speeds are so low it might not chew up the chain too fast.

I was also thinking about an external water cooling system like Miz did on his motor to keep this little puppy cool while zipping around the aisles of the shop. I have the radiator and water pump for the bike, so the only cost would be some copper tubing and fittings.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The model is almost ready to cut. The only thing I have left to do is model the cavity on the inside to allow space for the water cooling coil - if Miz reports back that his is having a positive effect.








It's a perfect fit in there, being about the exact same length as the ME-1003, and small enough in diameter to leave the Mars mounting pattern. I will be able to cut that pattern on the subframe and make it look like this contraption is bolted that way (a small adapter will be sandwiched between them).

Now, I'm waiting for everyone to say, "there's no way that little motor will even budge a 200-250lb bike!"


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm pretty sure it would move it. For how long and how far is the question. If you can monitor the temperatures you can avoid cooking it while experimenting. Remember, I drove a small tractor with a cordless drill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm pretty sure it would move it. For how long and how far is the question... Remember, I drove a small tractor with a cordless drill


Oh yeah! I forgot about the drill driven tractor!  Thanks J.  This one is a go! It doesn't need to go far or long or fast, just move. If I can ride it to the other side of the shop to grab supplies and check on my crew, I'd be happy - by the end of the day that starts to become a long walk.

If not tomorrow, one day this week I'll cut the faux case.




JRP3 said:


> ...If you can monitor the temperatures you can avoid cooking it while experimenting...


I can mount a temp sensor on the case easy enough. I was thinking about making a fixture for disassembling this motor that would hold the armature and case in line, so that the magnets don't start playing ping pong with the armature on the way out. If I ever do that maybe I can sneak a sensor inside too. Of course, by the time I do all that I would hope to have an actual ME-1003.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...The only thing I have left to do is model the cavity on the inside to allow space for the water cooling coil...


This is a go too - at least preparing the way for it is. One of the Team members and I just hashed out our plan for a cooling jacket for the motor and a cold plate for the controller. I am going to make the cold plate fit the little Alltrax I have, a bigger Alltrax I might get, the Jr I want, and the Open Revolt I might end up with; basically bolt patterns for each one drilled or provided for, or a plan for a clamp or something for a stray mounting foot, if that's not possible.

Tomorrow, I will pull the Ninja's radiator and water pump from the boxes of parts to make sure I din't accidentally discard or sell them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember Jr. is already water cooled so no real need to make the chill plate fit it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Remember Jr. is already water cooled so no real need to make the chill plate fit it.


Doh!  Thanks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The last hurdle to having a plan to make this work - and actually have my first moderately functional EV - is batteries. I need to keep my main focus on Schism, so a Headway pack isn't in the cards. Then it occurred to me that with this first stage motor, I don't need the current, or the range, anyway. I just need 48 volts as cheaply and conveniently as possible. The solution? Rechargeable cordless tool battery packs!

There's a thread around here where Major adapted the actual mounts from the tools into something EV-related. That's what I'm planning to do. Two 24v cordless tools are going to be sacrificed for the cause. I'll get the mounts, battery packs, and chargers, in one cheap, convenient, package. They should also look good under the polycarbonate domes, when I get those.

The community shop the Inhaler Project is housed in has a relationship with Bosch, so I will explore that first but Ryobi (lime green), and Rigid (orange and black), actually have more contemporary style packs that would look better under the domes. Of course, we can always paint the packs...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With some concrete decisions made on general direction and hard parts, I want to get the body plug modeled and cut, so I made a template of the frame today, and then went into Photoshop to work out the basic shape, so I wouldn't wander aimlessly, playing with lines and curves in Rhino. While in Photoshop, I decided to also play with the battery boxes. I don't like the domes on this bike. In the spirit of this being my version of Woody's Tractor Project, I looked around the shop to see if there was anything we can use to speed up the process, and saw those Woodlite aluminum headlight castings I originally bought for the Inhaler Model E. Hmmm... 








The body is obviously more curvy, and more sexy, and screamed for a little Ferrari Corsa Red paint (the color that was originally slated for Schism). The Woodlite-based battery box admittedly looks like certain women's body parts  (especially with bright red string bikini bodywork over them) but, hey, Italian sports cars take pride in being sensuously influenced by the prettier, sexier, half of the human race. 

Anyway, time for me to start modeling that string bikini... 

Let me have it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This was actually pretty easy. I only had a couple/few hours in the whole thing - that's rare. The Photoshop rendering helped because I was able to keep my focus on making the model look like the art rendering, instead of exploring possibilities. Sometimes exploring possibilities is necessary, but this time I knew exactly what I wanted, and the frame it fits tightly on is a fixed, existing, design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sliced up and ready to cut, from a single 4x8'x1" sheet of insulation foam. I think I am going to cut it tomorrow. I want to cut it now, but logic says let it sit for the night and see if it still looks good tomorrow...









I'll go model some stuff for Schism, to distract myself.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I couldn't take it - I stayed up all night to cut these. It took five hours (I started at 3:30am). 








They're not glued yet, just loosely stacked. If I have enough energy, I'll fit and glue them this evening, when the Team is here (I'm still in the shop).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When the adhesive cures, I will get it to fit a little better, and start smoothing it out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is looking so 'Todd'!
Love it.


I like the speed that you can get, with that insulation foam, to see how it will look in 3D.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is looking so 'Todd'!
> Love it.
> 
> 
> I like the speed that you can get, with that insulation foam, to see how it will look in 3D.


 Thanks Woody!

Yeah, working with insulation foam on the ShopBot is super fun, quick, and almost too easy to be true.

The only problem I have now is it looks kind of agressive, which makes me want a big motor!  The upside is I can always put anything I want in it, whenever the urge strikes, from the little Mars to an 11" forklift motor - thanks to the stressed engine-member frame design. I could even have a few different combinations sitting on their own subframes, ready to drop in to suit my whims.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I could even have a few different combinations sitting on their own subframes, ready to drop in to suit my whims.


I am just imagining something like Thunderbird 2 with the conveyor of different pods scrolling past underneath.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am just imagining something like Thunderbird 2 with the conveyor of different pods scrolling past underneath.


 Now you're talkin!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I machined the mock-up Mars motor yesterday. This will be smoothed out a little bit and coated (probably epoxy), but won't receive a lot of detail work. It's main purpose is to help us sort out the drivetrain layout. The bottom of the battery box will wrap around the motor and controller, so we need the correct sizes and shapes in place to work off. By wrapping the foam mock-up motor around the little ProTech motor, we kill two birds with one stone, and should have a functional mock-up, that we can simply swap the real parts into.









We're supposed to cast the intake manifold flange for Schism this Saturday or next, and I _might_ model Scrape's motor mount and have him cast it too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Test-fitting the mock-up Mars motor shell, and starting to sketch out a "chill jacket" system to help the temporary ProTech motor keep its cool.











One of my Team members and I came up with the idea to make two aluminum pieces that cup around the frame tightly and are clamped together. Holes will be drilled through the cooling plates, threaded, tapped, and fitted with compression nipples, on the ends; then fitted to a little hand fabricated tank on each end - like a radiator. I haven't modeled the tanks yet, and this model is just a rough sketch, but try to imagine a little half-round, miniature, tank with eleven little short flanged sections of tubing soldered or welded to it, with compression nuts on them.









I admit, it's a helluva lot of fabrication, but we're prone to this type of excess. Someone may be able to simplify this basic concept and implement it. The main point is all the water comes in cool, makes an equal path across the motor frame, and exits (hopefully) full of waste heat.

As I said, this is just a rough sketch to communicate the idea, and help me think it through. To fit in the mock-up case I made to go over this little motor, I can't have those big clamping bolts. I did those for the Water Cooling thread to illustrate the concept.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Between directing my Team through some of their fabrication tasks, and fighting my urge to do Rhino style surface modeling, I have been pecking at Scrape's motor mount for the last two days. I don't really know how many hours I have in it (I would guess around 20-30 actual modeling time) but most of the two days was spent doing other stuff or staring numbly at the computer screen trying to figure out _what_ I wanted to do (for a solid model, as opposed to my normal surface extravagance). I used Pro/E because this is a real structural part. The 36lb motor is literally hanging on this mount. I might do a little FEA on it, and tweaking if necessary - but the important part is I have a real solid model to go back and tweak for future versions and upgrades. I am also setup to do Mars motor mounts for people. 










...and, imported into Rhino to do a mock-up with the motor and sprocket. Tasty! 









The two rear mounting holes bolt to the factory Ninja frame, where the ICE mounted (rearmost mounts). The recesses in the back of the mounts ARE for 1" o.d. aluminum rodS (bored to accept a 10mm bolt) to fit in, and stretch to the other side of the frame mounting tabs. This allows me to use the factory Ninja mounting bolts, and lock the motor in tight on mounts designed for this purpose.

If money were no object, I would have this cut in titanium, just for the heck of it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's a shot of Scrape with the body smoothed out a little more and fit to the frame a little better, and with the (original Ninja) front fender on it. The fender helps pull the front end down, visually, and looks good with the body, IMO.










Also, what do you knowledgeable motor people think of this motor? I know next to nothing about AC, so I don't know what to look for. What caught my attention is the 5hp continuous rating, and size of the output shaft (.875"). Seems like a pretty powerful little rascal. It's approx 6.7" diameter x 11" long (total, w ends). $25.

























Compared to a Mars motor, would it be worse, equal, better, for a bike like this? For the inverter, I was thinking that if this new intern is legit, and really has a knack for this stuff we could cobble something together with used parts, following the DIY AC inverter plans floating around here. P&S also have a new AC board, and hopefully a full kit soon...

What say ye? Stick with DC?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Current rating looks pretty low, even if you use a much higher temporary rating, not sure how much you could push it, and you'd need to keep it's operating temps low, plus the controller issues, but it might be fun to play with. I'd say build the bike with DC but maybe set it up so you can swap this in if you come up with a controller to experiment with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Current rating looks pretty low, even if you use a much higher temporary rating, not sure how much you could push it, and you'd need to keep it's operating temps low, plus the controller issues, but it might be fun to play with. I'd say build the bike with DC but maybe set it up so you can swap this in if you come up with a controller to experiment with.


Thanks J. Like I said, I don't know much about AC, but that's what my DC-oriented mind thought too. Maybe we'll use it on another project. I want to be able to push the current limits on Scrape - not for any type of racing, just for fun street riding - like how a big Harley V-twin pulls. I'd better stick to 400amps through a Mars motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We have three events scheduled for the end of September/beginning of October, and I want at least one marginally functional vehicle for them. Schism is progressing very well, and should be rolling by then, but I don't want to even think about the mad rush it would take to actually drive it by then.  I'm already sleeping very little, and working almost around the clock (mostly on design and business), plus my interns are all headed back to school over the next couple/few weeks. That means they'll have less time to donate. I'm picking up more of them to make up for it, but new bodies mean more training and testing which takes time, that I don't have - so average it all out to keeping a slow and steady rate of progress like we have been doing.

The plan to make Scrape move is our best bet, and when I started really researching it, the idea looked better and better. Using the ProTech motor, Alltrax controller, and four AGM scooter batteries, I think I can cobble a whole 48 volt system together for a couple hundred bucks!  That includes a couple Chinese digital gauges (0-60 amps, 0-100 volts), the front sprocket, a fabbed pot box, used golf cart or scooter contactor, RS232-USB cable to program the Alltrax to not kill my little motor's magnets (downloaded the Alltrax software today), the four AGM batteries, etc.

The thing that makes it all work is the low current handling capability of my little motor, which makes me view it as a scooter. The scooter batteries naturally produce the right amount of current, for about $15 each. With a much smaller motor, running at 24v, and a "curb weight" of just a touch over 100lbs, the Razor scooters these batteries are made for can hit 10mph (claimed "top speed"). I should be fine putting around, scooter style, in the shop, at events, and in the parking lot, with a bigger motor and twice the voltage. I doubt it will be twice the weight, and most kids weight more than I do. 

I'll start ordering parts later this week or next week. Until then, I am going to work on the foam cores for the seat and fairing - more CAD/CNC coming up, stay tuned...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Which Alltrax do you have? Just wondering if it will work with a PM motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Which Alltrax do you have? Just wondering if it will work with a PM motor.


Yup, checked into that after I bought this little motor, figuring it would be a good controller for it, if not for the field in the GE SepEx motor.

It's an AXE 4834. I have (Alltrax) wiring diagrams for using it with PM, and it's confirmed here on their website.


It's tempting to pull the motor apart and mill holes in the DE and CE caps for air cooling; and take a look at the magnets to see if it's possible to upgrade them for more current (like Ripperton did), but by then it's also more logical to just buy a Mars motor...  Maybe the air cooling though, since that's practically free. I even have a little 12v (computer style) fan from an old battery charger that I could put on the end of the case to blow air through it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The seat is cut (from foam) and being surfaced now. I hope to have the composite lay-up done soon, and the mounting bracket made, so I can see how it feels.  I'll get pics of that soon.

Following in its older sibling Schism's footsteps, I came up with a radical LED-based headlight idea. Instead of the fairing that's in the art renderings, I am going with a glorified "number plate". It is, obviously, my Bat-T logo. The T is the actual headlight. It will pivot from the center of the ring, which will have a carbon fiber plate, with a cutout for the T to pivot through. The carbon fiber plate will have almost hidden LED bulbs around the perimeter, for a daytime running light halo, and for the turn signals.



















I also dummed-down the motor mount to get a quick mount made for the ProTech. This one is from the .250" steel we've become so accustomed to working with. Before we fire up the plasma and grinders, I asked the guy who machined the old motor mount for the Model E if he has time to knock this out. CNC would save me a lot of time, and have that motor in the bike in a day...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Motor mount machined, and it's absolutely perfect!  The bolts thread in silky smooth, with a finger and a thumb. A couple steel tube bushings to fill in the rest of the space between the Ninja rear frame mounts and I will have finally _mounted_ a motor in one of my EVs!  When I get it mounted, and the front sprocket purchased and installed, I am going to pick the back wheel up and put 12v to the motor, to turn my first EV wheel!  I'm also planning to get the amp and volt gauges, and if they check out I might put the rear wheel down, and click the switch with 12 volts and take my first EV ride (in the aisles of the shop)!!! 

















I had to notch the lower mounting point to clear the frame.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Paint the foam silver and it will look like the real thing


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Paint the foam silver and it will look like the real thing


That's actually going to happen, for two reasons. One, I need it to test and work out the color and material scheme for the bike. Two, we have a few events coming up, and I think a silver foam case motor would go over better than a pinkish-purple one! 

Hoping to be able to ride it inside the events, to demonstrate a little EV goodness. It would also be cool to show people how you can hook up a laptop and program the controller, etc. 

Scrape is a component of a larger, sustainable lifestyle, initiative that I am working on. It's being built in the Inhaler Project shop, but is actually a Todd Perkins Design project.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The motor is mounted, and the front sprocket is en route. Hoping to turn the back wheel by the weekend. 

































I also have a digital (0-90v) voltmeter/ammeter (0-100a) coming from China, but it won't arrive in time for me to keep my cool, so I am planning on a 12 volt test of the rear wheel spinning, and then to see if it will move the bike with the wheel on the ground. I plan to use the motorcycle battery, instead of my 750cca car battery, hoping that (combined with the motor's internal resistance) it won't be able to draw enough current to harm the magnets. I have had 12 volts from the car battery on this motor to test it, but that was with no load. I'm a little concerned that it will try to draw too much current with a load on it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm working on the forks now, to lower the front of the bike. As it was sitting, in all the previous pics, the forks were slid down three inches in the clamps. I took it all apart simply to add three inch spacers inside the forks, which would pull them down that much internally. When I got it apart and did a mock-up at the height I really want, I decided to go for it.










The aluminum sliders are much taller than the tire, limiting the available travel. I taped off 2.5", which will put them about even with the tire.










Then, I cut them and chamfered the edges, so the welds can be ground flush and smooth. Hopefully, they'll be welded up tomorrow.








The fork tubes will also be shortened, but I need to get everything back together to find out how much. I am probably still going to pull them down internally for some of the distance, to limit available travel. I think it will have about two inches of travel in front.



With as much as I could do on that for the day completed, I turned my attention to the drivetrain. The sprocket arrived about that time, so I ran to Lowe's and grabbed a .625 (i.d.) x .750 (o.d.) bronze bearing. The motor shaft is about .662, so I turned it until I had a slight interference fit (I think it was .660-.661). I couldn't support the other end of the shaft, so I didn't want to have to use too much force to get it installed. I can tap it on with the handle of a screwdriver.

The ProTech motor shaft didn't have a keyway, and instead of trying to hand cut one, I decided to drill the sprocket and shaft to take a simple rolled pin - because there isn't going to be a lot of stress on it with this setup. I was concerned that they would be hardened steel and destroy bits, but my seven-ish year old titanium-coated bit walked right through both of them, without even getting hot. A matter of minutes later, and the chain was hooked up and ready to go.









After almost three years of designing my EVs, today I finally turned a wheel with an electric motor!  A few more years and I might get to ride/drive one!  I have video, I think, but they're currently being converted to MPEG4, and I'm out of steam for the night - so, tomorrow...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)




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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Congrats Todd.

I really love the look too... Kinda a modern evil knevil look..


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Congrats Todd.
> 
> I really love the look too... Kinda a modern evil knevil look..


Thanks Mike!  As a design project, I'm just kind of letting this one flow through the path of least resistance, and concentrating on highlighting what becomes evident. It's that open frame, and mono-shock rear suspension. It diverts all your attention to the wheels and motor/drivetrain; _i.e._, motor-cycle, in its purest form. Everything else is being styled to complement that basic premise. The body highlights the shape of the frame, which draws your attention to the motor - like a picture frame. The front fender and seat pull the wheels into that picture.

Now, I have to maintain that chemistry with the design of the rest of the drivetrain, and not kill it. The Mars motor will be perfect because of the short aluminum case that tucks inside the frame rails, even being offset for the sprocket. The controller case and battery box design have to add something to all this.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> After almost three years of designing my EVs, today I finally turned a wheel with an electric motor!  A few more years and I might get to ride/drive one!  I have video, I think, but they're currently being converted to MPEG4, and I'm out of steam for the night - so, tomorrow...


Great video, and a mile stone for you!

Well done on that!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Great video, and a mile stone for you!
> 
> Well done on that!


Thanks Woody - it's very rewarding. I've been celebrating all week - hmmm, maybe i should have been working on the bike instead.  Just kidding. I did enjoy a couple good burgers, fries, chips, a breakfast sandwich, donuts, candy bars, and lots of coffee, around working on it though (to celebrate, not my normal diet )! 

I can't wait to take my first ride this month.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape looks nice with the forks cut down. We still have a little work to do to finish them up, but I could at least put the bike together and make sure it was going to work - yup! 

















I'm working on the seat right now. I have the surfacing work done enough, and hit it with a couple coats of acrylic hobby paint to help seal the joint compound and help protect any of the polystyrene foam that poked through. I have a third coat of PVA mold release drying on it now, and will do the glass lay-up today or tomorrow. Then, I can start working on the mount.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I guess my little volt/amp gauge panel grew weary of the boat ride, jumped ship, and swam over (from China), because it wasn't due to arrive until the 12th, at the earliest - it was in my mailbox today! 


















Of course, that necessitated dropping everything and getting it wired in, so I could find out whether the ProTech motor could actually move Scrape - yup!  (I wanted to have the gauge to make sure the little motor wasn't pulling too much current with a direct connection to the battery (12 volt motorcycle battery, momentary, automotive starter, switch - no controller).






I slowed the video down to about 1/4 speed during the first section of the rear wheel spin test, so the max current draw could be seen. It was only at 45-50 amps for a fraction of a second, and with no load (other than the raised, spinning, rear wheel) it settles down to a minimal current draw pretty quickly.

In the moving "tests" (that's what we'll call them, officially ) it drew up to about 75 amps, for a fraction of a second, and settles down to around 40-45 amps pretty quickly, then tapers off to 30-ish by the time I'm jogging to keep up. I couldn't do a seated, riding, test, well, because there's no seat yet! 

The motor is supposed to have 31 amps max, so it might push it too far at 12 volts with me on it. At 48 volts, with the Alltrax set to, say, 50amps max it should be fine... 

This was a fun day, and I finally got my first EV smile!  Even though it was a run-along-beside-it-smile - I did so (smiled) incessantly!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Does pushing it count?

Nice bit of video, Todd, I assume that you were running alongside to hold Scrape upright while it was driving. Looking forward to the seat being done to get the video of you astride it at 12V.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Does pushing it count?...









Woodsmith said:


> ...I assume that you were running alongside to hold Scrape upright while it was driving...


Yup!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Get that thing outside and hop up on the pegs


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Get that thing outside and hop up on the pegs


 I'm thinking that this weekend I should have a seat... Early next week at the latest. I also have to pull the forks back apart and work on them, but will probably put that off until later next week.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now begins the mind-numbing process of laying out the electrical system. Mind-numbing, of course, because I can never do anything normal. 

I have moved some of my ideas for Schism to this project, and a few to Pistachio. The main one for this project is the eventual goal of docking my iPhone and having control of the vehicle through it. As was the case with Schism, until we have an IOS developer either in-house or somehow formally (and dependably) associated, that will simply mean using my speedo app to know how fast I'm going. A second phase will hopefully mean being able to power the bike up via a Bluetooth relay, and app on the phone, and maybe get a brief status report. Ultimately, it would give access to the controller, etc, for programming and operational data.

Today, I just need to add some appeal to the initial interaction with the bike. I have my Whistler alarm system on my desk right now mentally and visually sorting through using it as the "key" to power the bike up. It looks like I can simply use the starter interrupt circuit to turn on the main 12v system power. There is also an auxillary feature that will send .5 second pulse to something if I hold the aux button for 3 seconds - I gotta figure out something entertaining for that! 

Another nice feature is automatic re-arming. If, in a conventional application, the doors aren't open within 60 seconds of disarming the alarm (and powering up the vehicle, in this case) it will reactivate. I can use the original starter button for this. So you power up via key fob, then bump the starter button to let the bike know you're really ready to ride. For demonstration purposes, I can turn it on for 60 seconds, walk away, and it will automatically power down. 

It has a shock sensor included, and provision for a two other inputs. One is a negative trigger, normally used for hood/trunk. That would be nice with a sensor to detect actual wheel movement (bike is rolling). A step before that triggers, the other input is a "Warn Away" input, that will cause the alarm to sound for 2 seconds, if triggered. I think a gyro sensor would be ideal here, so if the bike is lifted off the kickstand it basically "says" put me back down!

I have to physically sort all this out, dig into the Ninja wiring harness to separate the engine control aspects from it (for Pistachio), and then integrate this system into that harness, so that in the end it works like a factory system. 

Wanna come help?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Preparing for the electrical exploits. The Ninja wiring harness, unwrapped; and the Whistler alarm system.



















And making some progress on the seat. I tried using some donated Elmer's "Extra Strength" spray adhesive we have to fix the S2 cloth on the seat plug, pre-lay-up. It was so-so for that, and almost completely gave up during lay-up, but I was able to fight through and come out with a workable shell.


























Now the post mount. It's a little Inhaler Project flavor for my scoot; a slightly rolled, tapered, and hammered, piece of steel tubing, that used to be straight.









































More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Not so surprisingly, Scrape has turned out to be one of the most personally rewarding projects I have _ever_ worked on, in over three decades of doing this custom automotive thing.  It is no small part due to watching Woody with that darn tractor project! While I couldn't personally get into a tractor, I couldn't escape the pleasure I took in watching it develop and throwing ideas around with him, and others here, for it. It took me back to my "fun" days of playing with motorcycles, before I decided to make it my occupation. That was a great decision that I have reaped tremendous reward from since - I'm just making the point that before that point motorcycles had a single purpose in my life - fun! 

Looking forward, I know my anal-retentive self well enough to know that at some point there will have to be a more conventional business purpose for me to justify continuing the journey so, this weekend, I have been working on incorporating that into the plans for the electric drivetrain. The goals were to add purpose, without destroying the fun factor. I am very surprised to find that not only is that possible, but Scrape is actually my strongest Todd Perkins Design marketing tool! Despite all of the fuss, and countless hours of purposed design, to make Schism my ultimate marketing tool - ever, Scrape just kind of took the inside line and came out of the corner in front! 

So here's another chicken-scratch iPhone sketch, that is probably where I am headed, beginning this week, with Scrape's drivetrain:








I stopped thinking in terms of making the EV drivetrain look like an ICE, and got back to my normal EV obsession with displaying just how clean, efficient, and awesome the technology is.



The controller will be a P&S 144v/500amp kit, with some TPD-designed, Inhaler Project realized, "enhancements". It will be incorporated, with the contactor, fuse, diode, pre-charge, resistor, etc, on a crazy CAD/CNC polycarbonate and aluminum structure that will kind of float over the motor and battery box. From under the body I can have subtle LED lighting to give it a little otherworldly _glow_ in the appropriate situations. The point is to display and highlight what makes the bike tick.
The battery box is going to be a little carbon fiber/Kevlar/aluminum composite "cube" (actually, 9.5x9.5x8"). While I could take the traditional EV route and maximize battery space, for maximum range, I am purposely designing this little cube, and highlighting it as a design feature in the bike. The point is to show the pace of technology, and let Scrape's potential evolve with it. Twenty years or so ago, I would have been able to stuff this little box with a couple golf cart batteries and had dismal performance, that would have discouraged all but the most faithful from even pursuing an EV. Ten years ago, something like the first pack I am assembling - 12 AGM scooter batteries, became possible giving Scrape about 5 miles of range and, in combination with the surprisingly powerful little PM motor, enough performance to be entertaining. Today, I can stuff that box with 30 AMP-20 pouch cells, triple the range, and increase the performance almost exponentially, in combination with a Mars motor, and have a fun little bike. Which opens the question, and sets the stage for Scrape's future - what will be possible, within those same confines in five years, ten years, etc...
Additionally, I can make as many battery cubes as needed, even packed with different chemistries and formats, and do comparison research; demonstrate the ability to carry the 35lb cube inside and recharge almost anywhere, etc, etc. Theoretically, I can even stuff one with 130c, LiCo, nano-tech, RC cells, build a "full race" motor and see what she's got.  The chassis is up to the task, if I am so inclined...
For the bike itself, my main goal is fun. Next is keeping it as lightweight as possible. I have long believed that light overall weight is the true secret to unlocking the full benefits of electric propulsion, but that is virtually impossible in most practical concerns - Scrape sidesteps all of those and becomes my poster child for what "can" be, someday. Imagine a bike with the power and agility of a sportbike, the endless torque of a touring bike, the low center of gravity of a cruiser, and the lightweight and _feel_ of a small dirt bike.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That's some nice protoshopping


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> That's some nice protoshopping


That was actually done on my iPhone, with an app from Autodesk called SketchBook. I need to get an iPad, so I'll have a screen big enough to draw in better, cleaner, detail. I did clean up a couple of the lines, and desaturated the pink off the foam motor case, in Photoshop before posting it; but the chicken scratching was done on my tiny "iScreen".


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Do you happen to know any good freebies that do simple 2D cadding with dimensions and stuff? Importing and scaling off a pic would be great too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It is no small part due to watching Woody with that darn tractor project!


Blame me why doncha!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Blame me why doncha!


For having a hand in helping me find the most rewarding project - ever?! Absolutely!  Guilty as charged!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Do you happen to know any good freebies that do simple 2D cadding with dimensions and stuff? Importing and scaling off a pic would be great too.


Some of the guys around the facility here (in other businesses) use SketchUp. I have never used it, so I can't tell you what it's capabilities are or are not. I also remember them mentioning another one, named Alibre, which is a couple hundred bucks - again, I have no experience with it - just hearsay. I'll ask around wen I see them and post here, if I find anything else.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*I took my first actual ride, on the bike, in the aisles of the shop last night!!!* 

Actually, I couldn't stop doing it - I went for two more rides around midnight!  I'm waiting for the video to be sent to me, and I will share...

I just ordered the scooter batteries, contactor, pre-charge resistor, fuse, USB-RS232 cable, etc, to wire it up and make it run like a normal EV.

Curt came in yesterday and helped me weed the ICE-related sections out of the Ninja wiring harness, and we identified some of the points from it that will be integrated into the new system.










Here's the ICE stuff that is headed to Pistachio.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> *I took my first actual ride, on the bike, in the aisles of the shop last night!!!*
> 
> Actually, I couldn't stop doing it - I went for two more rides around midnight!  I'm waiting for the video to be sent to me, and I will share...


WooHoo!

Looking forward to the video!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> WooHoo!
> 
> Looking forward to the video!


Thanks Woody!  I'm twitching like a crackhead now, knowing Scrape is just around the corner, outside my office door, waiting for me to hop on and take off through the aisles again...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Very Cool, I'm waiting to see the video...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Very Cool, I'm waiting to see the video...


Me too. 

I forgot to mention that I am surprised how much speed I have with just 12 volts on this little motor. Next time, I will see if my GPS app can pick it up inside the shop, at these slower speeds. I think I am going to have a lot of fun with this bike, even with the 48v hyper-scooter system. Surface street speed shouldn't be an issue at all and, if I get eight more of these little batteries, I will have about five miles of range, for a couple hundred bucks (total).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Kick stand is down!


Fantastic video! You are going about as fast as my tractor can go. I bet it felt good to be driving electric at long last, a great milestone.


Are you using any sort of throttle or is it just on/off switched on 12v?
Looks to have a very smooth take off.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Kick stand is down!


I kept thinking the same thing  
I love the way the whole front of the frame is empty, it's powered by magic!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Kick stand is down!
> ...





JRP3 said:


> I kept thinking the same thing  ...


I get that a lot.  I guess I could have put the spring on it. This thing isn't supposed to be rolling, there are a host of other things "wrong" with it right now. After helping me with the wiring harness, Curt really wanted to see it move, so I gave in and propped myself on a piece of steel plate, on the end of a piece of tubing, and now I can't stop!!!  That's why I wouldn't try to ride it before - I knew how hard it would be to stop!!! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Fantastic video! You are going about as fast as my tractor can go. I bet it felt good to be driving electric at long last, a great milestone....


Thanks Woody! It feels incredible, and I am forever hooked (obviously was anyway, if I could keep going this long without ever having had a running one). I'm really surprised at the speed this tiny little motor can move the bike - gives me a lot of motivation to get the Mars motor... Zoom, zoom...







Woodsmith said:


> ...Are you using any sort of throttle or is it just on/off switched on 12v?
> Looks to have a very smooth take off.


Nope, just an aftermarket automotive starter switch. In the very beginning of the video you can see my left hand is sticking out ahead of the grip - I'm holding the switch. It's not mounted, I just hold it and push the button (like I said, a bunch of reasons I shouldn't be doing this).



Don't try this at home kids! 






JRP3 said:


> ...I love the way the whole front of the frame is empty, it's powered by magic!


Yeah, it's kind of like Miz's hot rod at this point, with the big empty space. Mine will be filled with battery and control systems though - I don't have anywhere else to put them.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Nope, just an aftermarket automotive starter switch. In the very beginning of the video you can see my left hand is sticking out ahead of the grip - I'm holding the switch. It's not mounted, I just hold it and push the button (like I said, a bunch of reasons I shouldn't be doing this).
> 
> Don't try this at home kids!




Reminds me of my early tractor videos, I was making it hop touching a wire to a battery and then driving back and forth in the workshop with a slider pot held in my hand!

Addictive isn't it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Reminds me of my early tractor videos, I was making it hop touching a wire to a battery and then driving back and forth in the workshop with a slider pot held in my hand!
> 
> Addictive isn't it!


Yup, it definitely is addictive!  I remember those videos Woody - you were also slamming it into whatever was in on the other side of the space it was in!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The 48v parts are trickling in. In the meantime, I am working on my wiring diagram. Somehow, in the midst on thinking through component locations, and checking myself in CAD, I decided to see what Scrape would look like with my much sought-after 330m tire. The exposed carbon fiber body is a go, by the way.









Now, of course, I really, really, want it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Had to get the seat mounted. Prepared the pedestal, with a little cut-n-grind work.









Notched a piece of tubing to fit on the steel pad.









Burned a hole (with the plasma cutter) so I could weld the plate to the tube on the inside, and preserve the fit inside the pedestal.









Presto!











I used the contour gauge to make a pattern for the front mount.









...and cut that piece from .250" steel.









Turned a bushing for the front.











Here's the seat base all welded up.


















I cut a notch in the pedestal, and radiused the top, for weld clearance.








Needs a little finishing work, but it works perfect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Fits nice. Later I will do the chassis side of the front mount. Until then, I'll just watch my weight, so I don't bend the whole thing. 









Next, I'll bond the base to the fiberglass shell, and add enough layers to the inside of the shell to make it strong.








The front mount is hidden in the fiberglass shell. You can barely see it from some angles now, but it should really disappear with a black finish.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Almost have all the parts for getting it wired up at 48 volts. The batteries are at the Post Office; I will pick them up tomorrow afternoon. The parking lot was full of vehicles, at least one big bay door was open, yet the mailman couldn't seem to find anyone to receive them - right.  I have the controller, contactor, fuses, pre-charge resistor, Whistler alarm, and cable for syncing the controller to my laptop. Gotta pick up a diode tomorrow too.










I have been racking my brain, trying to figure out how I want to incorporate all this stuff. It has to continue the theme, and add something to the whole. I finally, after many "takes" (obvious in the taped up cardboard template), came up with this.








The contour around the motor will be cleaned up, of course. I'm thinking it will have a steel or aluminum frame, with an interchangeable polycarbonate main panel. Everything would mount to this panel; the controller, the contactor, the fuses, the batteries, etc. I can have different panels already set and quickly change the whole drivetrain. Scrape will be an awesome research vehicle... 










The foam on the bottom will be a sculptured air scoop that feeds the motor cooling fan. I plan to create a sealed carbon fiber cap for the Mars motor with an inlet for fresh air...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple questions:


Does anyone run dual fuses; _i.e._, one on the (+) and one on the (-)? I just asked because I accidentally ordered a second fuse (forgot I had one). Keep it for a spare, or use both?
I just noticed (after more than two years of owning this controller ) that is says calibrated for 0-5K *OHM*. I was planning on a 0-5 volt pot, using an automotive TPS. Is this something I can recalibrate in the software, or a factory only deal?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It's not uncommon for some EVs and hybrid vehicles to put a fuse or a contactor in the middle of the pack as opposed to the end of the pack. That way if there is some sort of short, the pack is broken in the middle. I own a 2000 Honda Insight and it's hybrid system is designed with its service disconnect and 100 amp fast blow bead-filled(to melt in order to break the arc) semiconductor fuse are in the middle of the pack while the contactor is at the end of the pack. Some of this might help if either a positive or negative shorts to chassis either through wiring or a component and there is potential for a short somewhere else, if this middle point breaks it might help you.

I'm taking some guesses to the real reason why I've seen most hybrids and EVs(going back to even the Corbin Sparrow/Myers NMG) fuse the pack in the middle. With the hybrid I own, with the service switch off, it's a challenge to find active high voltage between two terminals on the pack unless I start disassembling components of the actual battery itself to reach contactor and fuse components normally covered by plastic. It seems to be a good way to design the pack. I'm still surprised to see many DIY packs where people have 50 cell LiFePO4 with open terminals and no cover with the trunk open. One time even saw a coat tossed on top of the cells, I asked the owner if he was concerned about the metal zipper making contact between two terminals and his face went red with embarrassment as he figured out his potentially dangerous mistake. I might be getting a little off topic though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A quick look at my Alltrax Controller Pro software shows a check box for 0-5V throttle.
I have seen people with a fuse on both the plus and minus ends of the pack.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks guys. 



MN Driver said:


> It's not uncommon for some EVs and hybrid vehicles to put a fuse or a contactor in the middle of the pack...


I'm only running 48v (4 little AGM scooter batteries) initially, so a mid-pack fuse would be easy, though I'm not so sure beneficial.




JRP3 said:


> A quick look at my Alltrax Controller Pro software shows a check box for 0-5V throttle...


Yeah, I saw that in the software too, I was just making sure it wasn't something done in the factory that was beyond the scope of the manual/software.





JRP3 said:


> ...I have seen people with a fuse on both the plus and minus ends of the pack.


I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere. I might try it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My little scooter batteries are finally here.



















I also have a piece of smoked Lexan, with Marguard coating, ready to be machined into the first Scrape EV drivetrain panel. 









Two weeks to have it all mounted wired up and running...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Latest bright idea: A few people who have come through the complex on tours, and some resident Curious Georges, have asked what I had planned for sound - as in the big debate now about how to let deaf and semi-comatose individuals know there is a vehicle approaching. I had none, other than my left thumb hovering close to the horn button, but have decided to seize the opportunity for another talking point (marketing tool).

I am going to add audio, and try to make it as exquisite as possible, given the confines of my little custom bike; think the Bose approach... The iPhone dock is a given, so the source is already in the plans. That would run the audio into a small 3-channel amp, with a 4" woofer under the body (in that big hump in back), and two "aim-able" mid/tweeters in the surface of the body.

We have quite a few serious audiophiles around here - I'm seeing if I can draw one of them into helping with making it more than the sum of its parts, with a post on our little community message board. 

I see myself with good jazz playing, cruising through an event, or a local park, or something...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You could have the sound of a 18 wheeler hitting its air brakes at the touch of a button.
That would wake up the comatose peds!


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Check the r/c hobby sites. They make sound modules for electric rc airplanes. Think how cool it would be with a big ole Radial engine sound coming from your bike! Or the Merlin from a P-51 Mustang... Yes, I can definitely see you having fun with the sound thing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You could have the sound of a 18 wheeler hitting its air brakes at the touch of a button.
> That would wake up the comatose peds!





madmike8 said:


> Check the r/c hobby sites. They make sound modules for electric rc airplanes. Think how cool it would be with a big ole Radial engine sound coming from your bike! Or the Merlin from a P-51 Mustang... Yes, I can definitely see you having fun with the sound thing.


Okay, that's probably my fault - I wasn't really clear. I'm not going to play warning sounds to let people know Scrape is coming, I am going to listen to music, while enjoying the ride, and watch them wonder where the good quality audio is coming from. I'm just using the (music-playing) audio system to answer the question, and stoke the conversation, about EVs needing some type of sound to let people know they're there.

The goal is really crystal clear, full-range, audio. For the few short miles of range Scrape will offer, I'll have the choice of listening to birds and crickets, people walking and talking, vehicles ripping and roaring, and/or good music.

I'm looking at Bluetooth iPod controls now. I can make a new housing that mounts the control buttons on the left handlebar, in place of the clutch lever bracket.​


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was thinking of the truck braking sound when you press the horn button!

However, if you were thinking of an audio warning for the blind then playing some nice music wouldn't inform them that you were on the road. They would just think you were a pedestrian with a music player.

I'm not one who thinks EVs need to make noise though, I just want everyone else's vehicle to be quieter.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...However, if you were thinking of an audio warning for the blind then playing some nice music wouldn't inform them that you were on the road. They would just think you were a pedestrian with a music player...


I'm just using the whole topic as a talking point, not trying to effectively address it. People coming through asking me how I plan to address it is what, somehow, made me realize I can actually have and enjoy good music on Scrape - because it's actually quiet enough to hear the music. Except for big touring bikes, like Goldwings, most people with audio on a bike are just listening to the upper frequencies that don't wash out in exhaust noise.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I'm not one who thinks EVs need to make noise though, I just want everyone else's vehicle to be quieter.


Ditto. 

I actually can't believe I'm saying that. I used to ride and drive the noisiest vehicles on the road. My bikes had NO baffling in the exhaust headers - purposely!  My cars always received a set of wheels and a muffler, at a minimum. Now that I'm an old fart, I just want everything to be quiet. I do still like certain sounds, like exotic cars, but prefer them to be a little muted, not obnoxiously loud.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The panel has been modeled, except for punching a couple/few more mounting holes (so that future panels will be easily interchangeable); and I have a small heat sink coming today, so I can model the cutout for the controller, and I should be ready to cut the Lexan, and start assembling this mess soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I updated the concept art, to see if this bright idea would look as good in virtual reality as it does in my head. Now, I let it stew for a bit and start cutting if I still like it. Normally, I would give this at least a week, but I need to have all this stuff wired up by next weekend, so tomorrow or Thursday might be the deadline.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

That's a good looking bike to me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> That's a good looking bike to me.


Thanks Mike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This weekend and next week, I get Scrape wired up to run like a normal EV.










Another tenant in the complex, donated the last piece I needed (I hope) to accomplish that - a little heatsink for the controller. It's missing a couple teeth, but should work considering I can't push much current into this motor.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Swooosh.... Electric's version of Vrooom!

Get her going...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Laid out like that makes it look so simple and uncomplicated.

Shouldn't take long then!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Swooosh.... Electric's version of Vrooom!
> 
> Get her going...








Woodsmith said:


> Laid out like that makes it look so simple and uncomplicated.
> 
> Shouldn't take long then!


That's the goal - to make it really easy for people to see, and hopefully understand, how an EV works. I cut a plywood test panel tonight; pics in the morning. I have a few adjustments to make to the model, but so far, so good. The components will be packed in a bit tighter than that pic (above), but this setup should look awesome on the bike.

This is a really unique bike. I just let it kind of happen, and it developed into a very interesting machine. It's something I wouldn't have just naturally designed and built but, on the other hand, I really like it. It's kind of like a sportbike/cruiser/standard/streetfighter mash-up.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut a second plywood panel, to check the revisions - perfect. Evan took a little break from school today, and helped fabricate the battery boxes.

























It's leaning forward a bit from the weight of the components. I didn't want to push my luck trying to get a perfect position because it's hanging from thin steel wire. This version also has a bit less visual impact because the Alltrax is small and potted, so I can't show how a controller works. When we build an Open Revolt for it, the entire top section of the panel will be full of electronic components, not a few around a little box. This version should still look decent with the other stuff on the panel.

The battery boxes will each hold 15-16 AMP20 cells. Right now they're going to hold the four little scooter batteries on one side, and the 12v motorcycle battery on the other. I'll get something else to replace the motorcycle battery, and four more of the scooter batteries, to finish this test setup; then it's on to lithium.

If you've come to know me at all, you'll know that these bland aluminum boxes are not the final product - they're a foundation to build on. Eventually they'll be detailed with carbon fiber tops, TIG'd in sculptured mounting bosses, etc. I'm basically challenging myself to make them look good, because they represent a reality of electric vehicles - that the whole concept is usually based around boxes of battery cells.




The upper battery box mounting hole locations were the last piece of information I needed to finish the model, so I cut the actual Lexan panel last night.

















Today, I have to fabricate the mounts for this panel and the fuse panel, and then it's simply a matter of mounting all the components on the panel and stringing (wiring) them together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I machined bushings for the panel mounts.











The battery boxes and controller have been mounted, so far. The paper won't come off the Lexan until everything is ready to be bolted up for the last time (this will come apart and go back together a few times between now and next weekend). I haven't officially matched and mated the controller and heatsink surfaces yet either.



















Amanda worked on some of the pieces for the front mount. She cut two pieces of tubing, chamfered the edge (to allow the weld to be ground flush, and cut another end cap (we had one already). The caps get drilled, tapped, chamfered, and welded to the tubes. The other end gets a bolt in one and a nut in the other. They bolt together, sandwiching the panel between them, and to the Ninja front engine mounts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Considering this for a display. It's just a bunch of surplus materials from around the Columbus Idea Foundry's shop, creatively combined and implemented. The base plate is a sheet of white Melamine-coated MDF, with a recess to accept the .125" metallic orange acryllic artist's pallet. All done on the ShopBot. The corner posts are cast aluminum table legs that the resident metalworking guy donated last year. The only thing I don't have are the copper spotlights mounted on them.









I have to double check to make sure no one has dibs on the supplies, and think it through, but the machining could begin tonight...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Of course, just getting the darn panel mounted, so I can actually work on hooking everything up, is taking much longer than expected; but it is going well. I need at least one more bracket and the front mount needs weld-n-grind work, but it's in there and stable enough for me to begin the electrical work.

















It's developing the big bike feel I want - nice and chunky, and the panel and motor are starting to form an EV power-plant image.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This might suggest otherwise, but things are going well. The biggest problem, so far, has been me missing things I need, making extra trips to the store, and still forgetting something that was on the freakin list! 









Keep in mind this is a temporary, low power, setup - hence the cheap terminal ends, cheesy crimps, etc.


One problem: I connected 12 volts to the contactor's coil terminals and it didn't trip. The eBay ad said it was tested and working properly. The only thing I can think is it takes 48 volts on either side? If so, that really sucks!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> One problem: I connected 12 volts to the contactor's coil terminals and it didn't trip. The eBay ad said it was tested and working properly. The only thing I can think is it takes 48 volts on either side? If so, that really sucks!


It should say, on the casing, what the coil voltage is. Maybe printed on the coil itself.
The ones on my tractor are 48v coils, which just happened to be good as my Curtis controller is all 48v power and control.

The set up is looking good though.
I can imagine the clear lexan making the parts look like they are floating.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...The ones on my tractor are 48v coils, which just happened to be good as my Curtis controller is all 48v power and control...


Doh! So is the Alltrax!  I noticed that in the diagram yesterday, but ignored it for some reason, trying to happily march down my own path.  I noticed, first, that the switch was fused into the battery pack (+), after the main fuse, with a diode to keep it from reversing back into the pack. I ignored that following my own path... Then, I noticed that the negative side of the coil was running to (B-) on the controller buss bars - ignored it again, happily (or so I thought), marching down my little path...

The thought never occurred to me that the contactor they were suggesting would have to have a 48v coil, to be wired into the pack voltage... 

So, I need a relay that can connect my 48v pack voltage off a 12v signal, to do what I want to do - close/open the contactor with the Ninja's ON/OFF handlebar switch.






Woodsmith said:


> It should say, on the casing, what the coil voltage is. Maybe printed on the coil itself...


No writing anywhere on it. I bought it over the conventional style because it saved me a few bucks (about $20 actually), looks cool because it's all exposed, and said it was tested.





Woodsmith said:


> ...The set up is looking good though.
> I can imagine the clear lexan making the parts look like they are floating.


Thanks Woody!  I can't wait to finally peel that paper off! The Lexan panel is (lightly) smoke tinted. I have to figure out the covers for all this stuff now - you know to keep little kids from asking, with their little fingers, "what's this?"


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Good to see you're making progress on your bike Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CFreeman54 said:


> Good to see you're making progress on your bike Todd!


Thanks Creig.  I saw your emails, they're just in the list, with all the others I need to reply to, sorry.  I've been all-out for weeks now, trying to get Scrape together. I donated Schism back into the Inhaler Project, so this is my "lead" project for the time-being. I've been doing almost all the work, and pretty closed off about the design, to ensure that it doesn't become more Inhaler Project than TPD (this time), considering it's being built in that shop.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> i donated schism back into the inhaler project, so this is my "lead" project for the time-being.


doh!!!!!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> doh!!!!!!!


No worries Mike, it continues on with the same exact plan. I just realized that it wasn't "my" car anymore. As with the Model E, I sacrificed my own desires for the good of the company with Schism, and it became what it needed to be for me to mentor the interns. It's their car more than mine, and all the awesome work is being done by them. My claim to fame, with Schism, is the design, not the work. 

The work on Schism, by the way, is paused while they're in school. As soon as they go on (Christmas) break it's on again... 

As stated in the first post of this thread, Scrape is my "Woody's Tractor" project and I'm having a blast! I won't let the interns do much on it, so I can finally have something that's "mine", and that little (mock-up) Mars motor keeps me from trying to race it, so it's just a fun design project.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Scrape is my "Woody's Tractor" project and I'm having a blast!


That makes my little tractor sound like it is famous the world over!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That makes my little tractor sound like it is famous the world over!


Well, it is internationally known and acclaimed - at least on a couple continents, and in a couple countries!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It should say, on the casing, what the coil voltage is. Maybe printed on the coil itself...





toddshotrods said:


> ...No writing anywhere on it...


Correction: there is a label with writing on the contactor's frame, but I wrote it off (pun intended) because it doesn't contain anything uselful...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When one has creativity + a custom automotive passion/obsession + tool skills + more time than money, perfectly good automotive parts end up being transformed into perfectly different types of custom automotive parts!  Witness the Honda Accord throttle body that has become an EV motorcycle throttle pot. 








Tools of choice were a manual, vertical, mill and a couple carbide cutter-equipped die grinders. Later, I will spend some time with sanding drums on the die grinder, and sandpaper, to make it look all smooth and factory-like. 










I'll fabricate the cable bracket tomorrow, and wire it to the controller. I have the rest of the drive system (electrical) pretty much ready to go, except for the 12-to-48 volt relay issue. I work tomorrow, so I will do some research on the capabilities of automotive starter relays at 48 volts, and make a decision. Worse case, I use an ordinary on/off switch for the event Saturday, until I get that figured out.

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've been using a regular 12V toggle switch at 48 volts in the AMPhibian for years. No issues.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I've been using a regular 12V toggle switch at 48 volts in the AMPhibian for years. No issues.


Good to know - thanks! 

For you and Woody: Can you give me a brief description of how your 48 volt systems are wired up. You're pulling a 48v line off the pack and sending 48 volts to the controller, instead of a traditional 12v circuit right? This is switched separately from the contactor coil right? Am I correct in assuming you power up the controller first, wait for the pre-charge to finish, then close the contactor? What signals you that pre-charge is finished?

Just comparing notes from similar, functioning, systems to what I have planned...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have a precharge resistor that's always in place unless I'm storing the vehicle for a long time, this keep the caps powered up. There was some discussion that it may preserve their life keeping them "full". Here's a wiring diagram from Alltrax.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Mine is connected as in the diagram in this post except with pack voltage instead of 12v.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=322723&postcount=94

The rest of the wiring is as the 1214 36/48v Curtis diagram in the manual, complicated by having incorporated additional F/R and seat switch circuits running through the controller.
I can't find a link to the Curtis pdf at the moment though. I don't think it is supported on their UK website.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks guys. I've been following a similar Alltrax diagram, but the AXE diagram for PM motor, with no reverse. I have the pre-charge resistor in place. I was just curious about what you guys are actually using, and if there were any differences from the prescribed path.

On the 12-48v issue, I decided to give an automotive starter solenoid a shot. I ran it past my boss at the day job today, and he claimed Ford solenoids are rated for 200 amps @ 12 volts, which makes sense considering the current levels I see when testing people's starting systems there. It _should_ be fine, especially in my system, at 48 volts and lower current.

I bought the solenoid today so, hopefully, tonight I'll finish up the wiring and flip the switch.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am fortunate that I have two pairs of 48v coil DPDT contactors. One pair is for the F/R circuit and the other pair are in the start/precharge circuit. 

Overkill to use a 200A contactor to close a precharge contactor but 'Overkill' should be the tractor's middle name!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Mine is connected as in the diagram in this post except with pack voltage instead of 12v...


So Woody, you're running 48 volts through a standard 5-pin automotive relay? That might be my next attempt...

The starter solenoid idea was a giant bust. They're obviously meant for intermittent use - something no one in the auto parts store thought about, including me. In a very short time, at 12v, they're too hot to touch. So, I spent hours accomplishing nothing, with an event looming overhead Saturday. 

I also had/have some gremlins with the alarm system that took me a while to get sorted out - possibly also for nothing, because without the 12-48v relay/solenoid deal, it's pretty much just eye candy.

Tired, sleep, and frustrated.  I should have been a farmer or something...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

No, I don't have any automotive relays, just two enourmous paired reversing contactors rated at 48v coil and 200a 180v contacts, hence overkill for one of them to only switch on the precharge contactor coil.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is where I got my 48 volt contactor, the White Rogers 586
http://www.evdrives.com/category_s/1941.htm
Not sure why they have two of them listed for different prices, maybe one includes the diode and precharge.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> No, I don't have any automotive relays, just two enourmous paired reversing contactors rated at 48v coil and 200a 180v contacts, hence overkill for one of them to only switch on the precharge contactor coil.


Doh! I knew that, because you just said it a few posts ago!  It was 4:07am, and I was frustrated and not thinking clearly. Sorry. 



JRP3 said:


> Here is where I got my 48 volt contactor, the White Rogers 586
> http://www.evdrives.com/category_s/1941.htm
> Not sure why they have two of them listed for different prices, maybe one includes the diode and precharge.


My controller and (spare) fuse came from Carl - great guy to deal with. I am trying to pull off a bit of trickery with how Scrape powers up and down. I'm actually halfway there; just need to make a few adjustments. I almost bought a contactor from him too, but as mentioned this was one a bit cheaper and more enticing, due to being exposed. This contactor is fine, I'm just playing with ideas on activating it differently. 

I have everything wired and ready and can throw in a switch if necessary for Saturday. I just wanted to put on a little "Todd" show with the key fob. 

Next round tonight.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape hanging out with a couple of the pretty ladies from the Columbus Idea Foundry, at the Mini Maker Faire yesterday! 









It took me all night (literally - not a wink of sleep Friday night), but I got Scrape to the event and it was operational, conventionally, at 48 volts!  The only thing I forgot was to charge the batteries, so I was able to make one short demonstration ride for the crowd before I felt the inevitable "empty tank" starting to hit. In hindsight, I actually started to feel it earlier that day in the shop, while giving my partner a quick demonstration ride, before loading it up. The crowd didn't catch it - they thought I just slowed down to pull back into my space! 

More pics and a video of the ride coming...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey! Well done, Scrape is looking good!

Shame on you for not charging the batteries after the last time you used them. Should keep them charged and not store them low.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey! Well done, Scrape is looking good!...


Thanks Woody - I really love my little "tractor project"! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Shame on you for not charging the batteries after the last time you used them. Should keep them charged and not store them low.


I know.  In my own defense, it took an entire sleepless night, just to get the bike to the event, and charging the batteries just wasn't a thought that registered in my brain. I still have to get a 48v charger, so charging currently requires putting each (of the four) little scooter batteries on the trickle charger.



It took me, literally, all night Friday to get Scrape to the Mini Maker Faire. I didn't have a single wink of sleep until last night, but it worked, and was worth every second of it. Scrape was a hit. We kind of think it was even more popular than the hot rods, but it's hard to judge because they were inside, and Scrape was outside. A couple more pics:

















The 12 volt starter solenoid actually worked. I don't know what caused it to get so hot that first time, but it doesn't now. I must have had something wired wrong before. My boss at Autozone did some more digging and found constant duty rated solenoids, that I can replace that intermittent duty piece with eventually. The only thing I have left to resolve is why the alarm system won't send a signal for the starter interrupt, to trigger a solenoid to turn on the bike's 12 volt systems. I have an automotive key switch wired in right now, but eventually I will get that working and add some Arduino-controlled lighting under the body to dazzle people when Scrape powers up and down.


My idea to mount the electrical components in the open so that people can see how EVs work, works beautifully. It has the mechanical feel of a sport/race machine, but with a high tech, futuristic, bent. Scrape literally stopped people in their tracks, and held them there fully engaged trying to understand what they were looking at - including a somewhat hardcore Harley guy. Some of them were squating or down on one knee looking at the components, trying to figure out what they were looking at, and how it all works. My technology tracking concept with the small battery boxes was also a hit. I need to polish my pitch a bit, but when I get to the end part about seeing what range and performance the bike will get with then available battery technology stuffed in the same boxes, in say 5 years, they're usually nodding, smiling, and sometimes completing my sentences.


Final, long-winded, thought: One of the reasons it took me so long to do this type of project is I was concerned that I would not like an e-bike because motorcycles are, conventionally, about shifting gears. Each appendage leads into a function that connects the man/woman with the machine. I was also a proponent of the loud pipes theory - my bikes normally had 4-1 open headers. I thought all of that was too ingrained in my psyche to enjoy just twisting the throttle and moving silently through time and space. Not so.

It's a different kind of experience, but every time I get on Scrape I am fully and completed engaged with the bike. I definitely feel connected, man to his machine. In my old age, I don't have the appreciation for noise I used to, and find the ability to be audibly connected to the environment I'm riding in to be refreshing. The best part is all this was just from a couple jaunts around the shop, and two laps through the crowd at an outdoor event, with food vendors, and a live band. I think riding through the main art/business district, local parks, and serene back roads, is going to be simply awesome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think someone a few years ago mentioned that the "ambiance" of an EV had it's own merit and you might not miss the familiar ICE characteristics you've become used to  Direct experience is better than word of mouth of course.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

toddshotrods said:


> In my old age, I don't have the appreciation for noise I used to, and find the ability to be audibly connected to the environment I'm riding in to be refreshing.


Good design ties together a fundamental aspect of transportation, the art of aesthetics, the interface of the machine and driver, how the driver experiences the ride, and how the observer’s imagination is led. Your vision for the project and attention to detail is fun to watch come together. Great job getting to this point. I wish I had a portion of your talent.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I think someone a few years ago mentioned that the "ambiance" of an EV had it's own merit and you might not miss the familiar ICE characteristics you've become used to  Direct experience is better than word of mouth of course.


Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing something like that! If memory serves me correctly, it was the same persistent fellow that convinced me that electric was/is the future, and led me here, kicking and screaming in ICE withdrawal...  "Cleaned up" and feeling fresh and renewed, I tip my hat to that dude... 





Joey said:


> Good design ties together a fundamental aspect of transportation, the art of aesthetics, the interface of the machine and driver, how the driver experiences the ride, and how the observer’s imagination is led. Your vision for the project and attention to detail is fun to watch come together. Great job getting to this point. I wish I had a portion of your talent.


Wow, that's mighty high praise!  Keep that up and I'll look like an inflated ego-flavored lollipop riding it!  Thanks Joey!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> ...the interface of the machine and driver, how the driver experiences the ride...


There were a few people taking pics and they're slowly trickling in. The first pics of the ride weren't high enough resolution to blow them up to fill the screen, so I made a composite of me interfacing and experiencing. 










I can't wait to see the video!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Do you have plans for some A123 cells on that bike? Seems like a perfect match.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Do you have plans for some A123 cells on that bike? Seems like a perfect match.


Yup, the boxes were sized with AMP20s in mind!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Sweet. Might consider putting the pouches in Tyvek Envelopes before tying them together in a pack. Put each one in a separate envelope to protect them from chaffing against each other and shorting out. Just a bit of extra protection against the mylar pouches. That is what I am doing. No testing yet but I hope to have some done soon. I plan on only like two parallel then string them together. Mostly for a smaller project I have in mind.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Sweet. Might consider putting the pouches in Tyvek Envelopes before tying them together in a pack. Put each one in a separate envelope to protect them from chaffing against each other and shorting out. Just a bit of extra protection against the mylar pouches. That is what I am doing. No testing yet but I hope to have some done soon. I plan on only like two parallel then string them together. Mostly for a smaller project I have in mind.


Yeah, I've been reading the thread on the AMP20 failures, and will definitely be using some type of barrier between pouches. I do like the Tyvek envelopes, I just haven't had a chance to really think through my plans yet. I plan to share complete details, when I finally do though.


One other glitch I had is, I haven't been able to program the Alltrax. I can't find a driver for the cable I bought off eBay, so I have no communication. The first time I turned the controller on, the pot box wasn't hooked up and it threw error codes for it. I took a guess at the Honda TPS wiring, based on the Alltrax diagram, wired it up, and - green light on the controller! The only problem is it isn't zeroed, so it's throwing a bit of current at the motor as soon as it's turned on. I can stall it easily, but it's enough to start moving as soon as I hit the switch. It responds perfectly to the throttle and moves pretty good at WOT.

I suspect that this constant drain, on four AGM scooter batteries, and my constant aggressive twisting of the grip, is what drained the batteries. In hindsight, I remember ripping through the facility to give my partner a demo before we loaded Scrape in the truck, and the acceleration and top speed being slightly diminished.  Unfazed, I just let 'er rip again, until the little batteries finally cried "Uncle!", at the event! 

Problem number three, is the little Chinese gauge that was working perfectly at 12 volts, isn't working yet at 48. It can be wired 2-wire for 12-24 volts, and 3-wire for higher voltages. As mentioned, there are no directions, just crappy pictures on eBay to guide the installation. An EE major and I went through it over and over and just couldn't find the problem. I'll return to that later this week. It will, supposedly, do volts, amps, state of charge, and (I think) power...

I'm also going to try the driver download again, and then contact the seller for a working link to a driver for the cable, if necessary. It's a: *USB 2.0 Turn 9 Needle Serial Cable(CL080), *that uses this driver, but when I download and unzip it I get nothing useable? Maybe there's something corrupt in it that my virus software is zapping, because everything that shows in the zipped file doesn't show up in the folder after being extracted?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Todd,

Go snag this file and give it a try. No guarantee but it should work. Let me know if it did the trick. 

http://greenev.zapto.org/files/CL080.rar


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was trying to wait for a high-res version of this pic to post it but it has already surfaced on Facebook, so I'll release the low-res version and swap a better one into my server if possible later. One of the volunteers from Columbus Idea Foundry that does the pics and videos saw this opportunity, as Scrape was sitting there and asked me to pose with it.









It's kind of a really special picture for me, because it represents three things: my long-awaited, long-sought, return to motorcycles; my life-long desire to live in a city (was a city boy stuck in small town life); and my first operational EV!  The glasses by the way, were another guy's prescription sunglasses and I was almost dizzy looking through them for the pose. 


I finally threw the batteries back in Scrape today, and I am happy to report that all is well. I was a little concerned that I could, somehow, have wiped the magnets in my little motor because the gauge isn't working yet - but it was simply exhausted batteries. I need to get a 48v scooter charger next, so I can keep them topped off...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks badass, except for the pink foam motor housing


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Looks badass, except for the pink foam motor housing


Lol, it's the 21st century dude, men can wear pink too now!


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> Lol, it's the 21st century dude, men can wear pink too now!


Yeah, but their bikes can't... 

Great pic... But I hope you get your bigger motor soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Todd,
> 
> Go snag this file and give it a try. No guarantee but it should work. Let me know if it did the trick.
> 
> http://greenev.zapto.org/files/CL080.rar


I tried it and there's nothing in the unzipped file, at least for me.  I thought maybe the problem was my old open source zip program, so I found a new one and tried again - same result. The new one did, however, successfully unzip the other one I had downloaded, but there's no driver in it. A bunch of files that check out okay in the antivirus software but don't contain a driver, when opened and installed. One of them tries to open with Media Player? 

So freakin frustrating.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Try this.

30% smaller and 100% more drivers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Try this.
> 
> 30% smaller and 100% more drivers.


That's the link provided in the seller's ad. I tried it again anyway, and Windows doesn't recognize a driver for this cable anywhere in there.

I sent a message to the seller. Between this cable and the gauge panel, I don't know which is more frustrating. All the American-made stuff I bought works perfectly. Some of the cheap Chinese crap - not so much...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I will get out my pc and try those files. If I find one that works I will just email the files individually. I will probably have to rename any .exe to make it through the mail filters though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> I will get out my pc and try those files. If I find one that works I will just email the files individually. I will probably have to rename any .exe to make it through the mail filters though.


Thanks Mike.  It'll be interesting to see if it's me doing something wrong, a problem with my software, or something with the files.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

yup, download worked for me. zipped up the setup file and emailed it to you... let me know if that works...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> yup, download worked for me. zipped up the setup file and emailed it to you... let me know if that works...


Thanks Mike, but I've made it to that point. It installs but I can't find a driver anywhere on the system? Am I doing something wrong after installing it?

I'm sorry, I should have explained in better detail what happened so you wouldn't have wasted your time doing what I had already done.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

After running the setup.exe, you should just plug in your cable and it auto detect it, and install the drivers


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> After running the setup.exe, you should just plug in your cable and it auto detect it, and install the drivers


Says it cannot install it because it cannot find the necessary software - it searches the entire system in vain. I also tried manually directing it to folders, but no luck.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The seller replied with yet another link to another driver and still the same result. I've tried four different drivers, from at least six different sources, and get the same result.

I'm not having a problem with downloading the files. They download and the .EXE file runs and installs whatever is in them fine. The problem is none of the downloads I have tried have anything in them that Windows (XP) recognizes as a driver for this cable.

It searches automatically and doesn't find it, and it doesn't find it when I place the files in a folder and direct the search to that folder. It's basically saying, even when it finds drivers in the folder, that there isn't one that matches the cable.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can you try it on a different computer?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Can you try it on a different computer?


Maybe if I catch someone with a laptop around the Idea Foundry today. All their classroom computers are running Ubuntu.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I managed to spill an entire mug of coffee on my desk last night, dousing my external hard drive. I've been fighting to save the 100-150 gigs of (very important) files most of the morning. One day I will learn to back-up...

In spite of the computer and cable issues, I am making some progress and having a lot of fun realizing it. I have been making trips across the facility on Scrape - you know to work the bugs out of it.  I decided to give the gauge another crack after a few more "blind" trips and stumbled across my test light in the process of looking for something else.  That gives me some concern about my multimeter though, because I would have bet money they were together...

Anyway, with the test light I started poking around and found the problem. There is a (screw) terminal block for a relay that isn't mentioned in the "eBay picture manual" . One side is hot (12v) and when I touched the test light on the other post the gauge lit up! So I put a jumper wire from the 12 volt ground to the relay ground post, and took another ride...

The first thing I noticed is, according to the gauge, I am putting a lot more current into the motor than I thought - it reads 100-110 amps, as soon as I click the switch!  The AGM scooter batteries are only capable of 60 amps, so the controller is conjuring up the rest in an attempt to help the motor overcome the stall. I really need to get this cable working now, so I can set the pedal to 0.

I get why I am zapping my little batteries so fast now (they're back on trickle charge - one at a freakin time again already). I also need to get a 48 volt charger ASAP, so I can keep them topped off. Four more of these batteries would also be nice.

Step by step... Having a blast playing with it though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I still haven't had any luck with the cable driver, even with the help and advice a couple of the guys here have provided?  I've also been preoccupied with recovering the files from my coffee-soaked external hard drive. That's going slow, but okay.

In the meantime, I have a couple quick charging questions:

Would it kill a cheap 12 volt automotive battery charger if I connected all four of my 12 volt, 5ah, AGM, scooter batteries in parallel and charged them together? Would they charge okay and be safe?

Looking for a quick solution, using what I have, that will allow me to ride more. 

Also, any harm in having the wires simultaneously connected for parallel charging while the little pack is wired series in the battery box, and simply hooking the 12v charger up to the parallel wires to charge?

Pushing my luck?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you mean connecting your series traction pack in parallel at the same time, that's creating a dead short in the pack. So, no, don't do that. You can disconnect them from series and connect them in parallel and charge them with a regular charger, no harm no foul, and in fact charging that way will balance the batteries, where series charging will not.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If you mean connecting your series traction pack in parallel at the same time, that's creating a dead short in the pack. So, no, don't do that...


Doh! If I had spent a few more minutes thinking about and picturing what was saying I should have realized that! 






JRP3 said:


> ...You can disconnect them from series and connect them in parallel and charge them with a regular charger, no harm no foul, and in fact charging that way will balance the batteries, where series charging will not.


That way ^^^  It's much better than pulling all the batteries out and individually charging them, and my time to get back in the saddle is reduced to 25% 


This is just until I make a decision on a 48 volt charger. There are a few different 48v scooter chargers on eBay and I need to decide whether I am going to suffer through this a bit more and buy the other four little AGMs first. The eight cells together (4 in series/ then 2 sub-packs paralleled) should be able to handle a bit more current coming in.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another way to go is to get 4 12V chargers, if they are isolated chargers, which would also keep each battery or parallel set of batteries balanced.
Essentially that's what I did with the AMPhibian, but I got a 4 in 1 MinnKota charger.

http://www.emarinesupplies.com/minnkotamk440on-boardcharger.aspx?gclid=CIbp4KqX5rICFcuh4AodbwYAng


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Another way to go is to get 4 12V chargers, if they are isolated chargers, which would also keep each battery or parallel set of batteries balanced...


I thought about doing that, but this is a temporary setup that I don't want to put a lot of money and time into. The scooter chargers are $20-35, two wires, and I'm done. The way I've been hammering them, I don't really expect these things to last long, but considering the fact that I'll have less than the cost of one good automotive AGM in the whole lot, it's worth it!


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Todd, do you have room for 15 of my Thunderskies in your battery box? That would extend your range...considerably.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

.....or 4 Exide Orbitals?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CFreeman54 said:


> Todd, do you have room for 15 of my Thunderskies in your battery box? That would extend your range...considerably.


You're supposed to use smiley faces when you make jokes Creig! Like this:  . I might be able to fit two of them, for half the power I had with the motorcycle starting battery. 




CFreeman54 said:


> .....or 4 Exide Orbitals?


They must have good weed in China...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*UPDATE:* still no progress on the cable, because I've been trying to recover my files all day - with no luck on that either. A resident hacker type took a digital look inside and it seems to be pretty bad - like four years of work, gone. Nope, I didn't have any of it backed up. Told you I'm not afraid to take risks! 

All of the hot rod and bike work - possibly gone. 

I was working on a new video when it happened too. I held my camera out in front of me and shot myself zipping around in the shop, and was editing it so that it looked like a crash was eminent, then we would "blast" off in another/opposite direction! . It _was_ going to be a fun ride...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I'm surprised an external HD would fare so badly from a spill. Mine take it all the time. Depending on how much the data's worth, there are shops that can recover stuff for you, or you can try some surgery and swapping the HD controller for recovery operations.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I'm surprised an external HD would fare so badly from a spill. Mine take it all the time. Depending on how much the data's worth, there are shops that can recover stuff for you, or you can try some surgery and swapping the HD controller for recovery operations.


This one has taken everything from spills. to drops, etc; which is what gave me the false sense of security and apathy about backing my work up. 

From a glance, paying $500-1000+ to have as much of the data recovered as possible seems like a no-brainer. My "attitude" about it is not so positive. A certain "F-word-phrase" keeps coming to the tip of my tongue.

The funny thing is, I am not angry, and it's this project that's keeping me so cool and peaceful.  I almost don't care about anything else, but I know I should. The only problem for me with Scrape is I had major plans for that digital body. The motor mount would be easy to recreate, but the body not quite so simple; so I have to really think that through. I have time, because this body exists and I can continue with physical development of the bike, while I weigh it out.

I also still have CAD files for the drivetrain component plate, its mounting bushings, and the exhibition display base, on my USB drive (backed up to my laptop hard drive, ). Eric (the guy who cut the motor mounts) - might - still have a copy of the files he used. I just wish I still had the body. I can reverse engineer it, or find someone that can scan it, or Eric has a CMM to rebuild the curve network.

Schism, the Inhaler Model E, and the entire G-bucket line - that's a different story...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been planning for AMP20s in Scrape because of A123's normally excellent cycle life, but my favored Turnigys have been in the back of my mind the whole time. I decided to model them to see how many I can fit, and what kind of specs a Turnigy pack would have. Remember, the whole point of Scrape is to demonstrate the technology, meaning I can have interchangeable sub-packs of different battery technologies.








2 48 module sub-packs (each 65-130c/6ah module has 2 cells in parallel), then wired in parallel to the contactor. 177.6 volts, 12ah, 780 amps "constant"/1,560 amps max current; about 30lbs (for the cells); 277hp (in the pack); $2400; 15-30 miles of range.

Not bad. Being that Scrape is a fair weather ride, and I would rarely ever touch the real potential of the pack, they might last for 700-1000 cycle, which would be years...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> This one has taken everything from spills. to drops, etc; which is what gave me the false sense of security and apathy about backing my work up.


Always sucks to lose data. I've never had a HW loss, but my wife got mad at something and whacked her laptop causing a HD crash.

I try to keep important data on at least 1 PC, 2 externals, and encrypted on 2 cloud sites...total cost ~$25/year.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

What did you do with all that space where the ICE was? You need a bigger battery box!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CFreeman54 said:


> What did you do with all that space where the ICE was? You need a bigger battery box!


Look at the pics on page 17. This isn't built for range. This bike was built as my version of Woody's Tractor Project - meaning something that I can have fun with and enjoy - that means design, how _I_ choose to do it, how it makes *me* smile, for once. Number one goal, have fun. Number two goal, make it look badass (which is actually the fun part, for me). Number three goal, find a way to use that to promote myself professionally.

It actively and visibly demonstrates how EV technology works, and actively tracks current EV technology by showing the potential of the most modern technology that will fit in the same space. It's going to be a part of the sustainable lifestyle concept I mentioned to you before, but it wasn't built specifically for that purpose - it was built for me, me, me!


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

And here I thought you wanted to race killicycle....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CFreeman54 said:


> And here I thought you wanted to race killicycle....


That ain't my bag. I raced street-legal dragbikes, as in no wheelie bar. I also "hung up my leathers" because I'm pretty certain I would have killed myself by now - I don't have a healthy sense of fear that tells me when to stop, so my trainer (common sense) said I shouldn't get back in the ring... Read all that as the mishaps and near-mishaps were becoming exponentially more life-threatening. There were a few I probably shouldn't have walked away from, and a few more rolls of the dice would likely have completed the job, because I wasn't trying to go slower... 

Additionally Scrape is purposely not a race bike, it's a streetbike that's more akin to a one of those ultra radical choppers you see built on the popular TV shows. That was a purposed decision to keep me on planet Earth long enough to accomplish some of the things I am determined to do before I check out. The only two bikes I ever remember riding like I wanted to live were a softail-springer Harley, and a full-dress Kawasaki touring bike

Once all this greater purpose stuff is done, and if I'm not too old and decrepit, I may return to trying to kill myself on a dragbike...


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> That ain't my bag. I raced street-legal dragbikes, as in no wheelie bar. I also "hung up my leathers" because I'm pretty certain I would have killed myself by now - I don't have a healthy sense of fear that tells me when to stop, so my trainer (common sense) said I shouldn't get back in the ring... Read all that as the mishaps and near-mishaps were becoming exponentially more life-threatening. There were a few I probably shouldn't have walked away from, and a few more rolls of the dice would likely have completed the job, because I wasn't trying to go slower...
> 
> Additionally Scrape is purposely not a race bike, it's a streetbike that's more akin to a one of those ultra radical choppers you see built on the popular TV shows. That was a purposed decision to keep me on planet Earth long enough to accomplish some of the things I am determined to do before I check out. The only two bikes I ever remember riding like I wanted to live were a softail-springer Harley, and a full-dress Kawasaki touring bike
> 
> Once all this greater purpose stuff is done, and if I'm not too old and decrepit, I may return to trying to kill myself on a dragbike...


What about doing burnouts like these bikes -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbcfVu9GsqY
So much easier with Electric and don't have to worry about stalling.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm glad to hear you're getting wiser with age. Hopefully you'll be around long enough to get my CAD redrawn again.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

If you decide to go back to your old ways you could always come visit me here in China and just ride a motorcycle in Chinese traffic!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CrazyAl said:


> What about doing burnouts like these bikes -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbcfVu9GsqY
> So much easier with Electric and don't have to worry about stalling.


Absolutely! Scrape may not have competitive racing in its future, but smoky burnouts are pretty much mandatory. It's actually a very "efficient" demonstration of the torque characteristics of electric drive. I had to wind my ICE bikes up (RPM), and dump the clutch, to do burnouts. With Scrape I will simply be able to lock the front brakes and sort of effortlessly, initiate the smoke screen mode! 

One of my absolute favorite things to do with Scrape, when demonstrating it to new people, is to hop on, power the 12v circuit, and hover my thumb over the handlebar switch that opens the main contactor, then tell them it's going to be really loud, and to cover their ears. One woman, literally, started to reach to cover her (toddler) son's ears! The visual of me on this radical custom bike, reaching forward dragbike style to grab the bars, and warning of the impending auditory doom, gets them almost every time - then they hear the faint click of the contactor opening, and watch me silently zip away from them!!!  It's priceless, and really, really, paints a part of the EV picture!  When I finally get my key fob power-up/dancing lights system working, it will only add to the fascination/suspense of awakening the beast within.

To be able to follow all that with a nearly silent burnout, would be absolute gold. 







CFreeman54 said:


> I'm glad to hear you're getting wiser with age...


I think you read way too much into that.



CFreeman54 said:


> If you decide to go back to your old ways you could always come visit me here in China and just ride a motorcycle in Chinese traffic!


Or just try to walk outside and breathe.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the crash of my external hard drive, I've (at least temporarily) lost the CAD model of Scrape, so I'm sort of working in dim light here. Normally, I would have been able to put this piece on the digital bike, and spin it around, to see if I really like it. I don't feel like modeling the bike over right now, and this will just require a couple surplus pieces of foam to try, so the Photoshop rendering test will suffice. It's a forced-air cooling duct system for the motor, that also doubles as part of my plans to make a hard rectangular box fit in the big picture of an electric musclebike. 

















If you know anything about me, and my exploits, you'll know that this simple CAD model is just the beginning, and that this will be loaded with unseen details. The intake will be carbon fiber, and the front edges will be a rolled bead, not a thin edge. Also visible, just inside the front opening, the runners will be "faired" around the front edges of the battery boxes, and I'll probably put an insane amount of detail into those little wedges.

I think I am going to roll the carbon fiber up onto the aluminum cases, creating an organic flange, that should make the intake look like it's almost melted onto them. As mentioned, I'm working in "dim lighting" here, so I want to see them on the bike before I invest that much time into the design.

I might cut the foam later today...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had some issues with the ShopBot last night, but managed to get a foam core cut that's decent enough to proceed with this part. For some reason, it's cutting things differently than what's in the model. Anyway, here's the motor cooling intake manifold on the bike.

























It definitely adds to the big, chunky musclebike, image. Now time to glue it together and start the surfacing work. I waited to do the actual turn into the motor cap until I could see it on the bike. I'll let this marinate for a bit, and think about how I want to do that.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's probably different in real life but the pictures make it look as if it could cause cornering issues.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It's probably different in real life but the pictures make it look as if it could cause cornering issues.


Yup, that was my initial concern when I was modeling it. It just naturally wanted to be a certain size, and I didn't have the CAD model of the bike to test the clearances, as well as see if it looked right.

Alas, it's not as wide as it seems. The feelers on the pegs touch about the same time the intakes would and, with it being lowered so much, I don't see myself leaning that far because the clearance between my foot/lower leg and the ground would be very tight.

I lost a sneaker once in a similar situation! I dropped my bike in some gravel, showing off for three cute girls, and my shoe got stuck between the ground and the bike. When I knew I was going down and bailed, I ended up sitting in the gravel with one shoe off, a busted up bike (turn signals, etc), and severely wounded pride.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love this bike!


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

The bike looks awesome with a rider on it. The seat stands out in air over the rear tire and seems a little out of place, but add the rider and it looks right. Sculpted intake looks good, too. Nice video.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> The bike looks awesome with a rider on it. The seat stands out in air over the rear tire and seems a little out of place, but add the rider and it looks right. Sculpted intake looks good, too. Nice video.


Thanks Joey!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I kept wanting all those people to get out of the way so you could get on it a bit. Have you had a chance to open it up at all?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I kept wanting all those people to get out of the way so you could get on it a bit. Have you had a chance to open it up at all?


Lol!  Only for a brief second in the open spaces of the facility. It think it'll probably do what I expected, around 35 mph. The math, with the gearing I have is between 45 & 50? That would be cool.  It actually accelerates _okay_ when the batteries are topped off, but it doesn't take many of those pulls to exhaust them.

One of the next things I want to do next is take it out in the parking lot and let it "rip". I need to pull the forks apart one more time and fix something I messed up, and put oil in them when they go back together, before taking a chance on "top speed". There are no upper bushings and no seals in them right now!  It's actually very stable, but I doubt I've been over 10mph. Four more batteries would also be nice to keep from destroying these. 

As for opening it up in that video - remember the batteries were pooped. You saw all you were going to see there.  That little half-ride/half-walk back into my parking area - that wasn't by choice!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Columbus Idea Foundry (complex the Inhaler Project is located in) hosted an after party for 120 science and technology professionals who were in town, from all over the globe, for some kind of conference at COSI (Columbus' science and technology museum). Great group of people, who were genuinely interested in the technology, and discussions about the future of EVs. Add to that an open bar, and you have the makings of a fun evening.

































Not taking anything away from the awesomeness of our hot rods, but this bike is more fun (to me, at least) than all of them put together! If I would have had a passenger seat I think I would also have had a "date" (for a ride around the atrium) too.  I forgot how much bikes convey that "badazz" image and tend to work, in certain circumstances, to a single man's advantage.  Gotta get on that seat...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


>


Hey, cool trike you have there. The two seat trailer needs wheels though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey, cool trike you have there. The two seat trailer needs wheels though!


Lol, I didn't notice that!  The trailer's wheels are back there, behind the people. It has a range-extending generator engine back there, so the wheels have to be back where the weight is...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm modeling a faux Sol Jr, to go with my faux Mars motor!  I want to see if I can fit Jr in Scrape. Beside testing in CAD on the panel, I will probably machine a foam mock-up Jr, for real-world testing. My current plan is actually to build an Open Revolt, but I'm also trying to make the bike as universal as possible, to serve well as a research vehicle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a night of fun, at the after party, we took Scrape out in the parking lot (a couple days ago) and did the first round of testing. Buckle your seat belts, this blistering performance might blow you right out of your computer chairs!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Better slap some pedals on that thing for a boost


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Still a good video though, shows how smooth and quiet Scrape is and the limitations of low voltage and a small pack.

I think my tractor does more then 11mph and maybe weighs three times as much!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Better slap some pedals on that thing for a boost


Lol, more like stuff it full of lithium. 



Woodsmith said:


> Still a good video though, shows how smooth and quiet Scrape is and the limitations of low voltage and a small pack.
> 
> I think my tractor does more then 11mph and maybe weighs three times as much!


Exactly. It should be much faster, and probably was on the first run. I can literally feel the difference in acceleration and speed with each attempt. Those batteries are rated for 60 amps, and the motor for 31 amps (max). I am pushing a little over 100 amps through the motor which, eventually, tapers off to around 40-ish. My dumb Chinese gauge panel won't show me pack voltage (it is supposed to), so I'm not sure how much it's sagging, but I'd bet money it's very significant.

One thing I need to do is check top speed with a fresh pack, and easier approach to getting there. Second to that, I really believe the performance and range would increase substantially with the other half of the pack. If the pack is capable of the 100-120 amps it's pulling to accelerate from a standstill, and has more reserve capacity, it should be able to feed the motor the full 48 volts... I also need better gauges, so I can see what's really happening. I'm thinking about getting a Cycle Analyst for it, eventually.

More to come...

Edit: I also forgot to mention that this was the first time the batteries and motor showed any increase in temperature. They were still only warm to the touch, but obviously above ambient. I'm also adding an infrared "gun" to my list, so I can also monitor these things. I can feed some of the air from the motor cooling intake through the battery pack too, though the lithium cells won't likely be pushed far enough to need it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can just clamp the leads of a DVM to the pack and read voltage sag.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You can just clamp the leads of a DVM to the pack and read voltage sag.


I know. I can't find mine, and refuse to buy another one because as soon as I do, it'll be _right there_... I tried to borrow one a couple times, but everyone I asked had the same, can't find it, problem. There's a DVM bandit loose in the facility somewhere.

Seriously though, I don't really think about it until I am on the bike and can't see the pack voltage. Normally, I am in the office far from the electrical concerns of my little EV. 

By the way, you did a great job of selling me on this whole deal. I am definitely, truly, 100%, hooked!  I still like my gas driver, and really like hybrids, but electric is always in my thinking...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Glad I could help out.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My mock-up Junior is coming along. A few more details and I'll be ready to cut one. The point of this is to see how well Junior fits in Scrape, and how it looks. With the current panel, I have the contactor, fuse, etc, exposed to show how it's all wired up. I have noticed that even with the more technologically-inclined people there's not a lot of discussion about that stuff. The discussions are more about the general flow of power from batteries to pavement; _e.g._, "so, you're running direct drive?"; or, "how are you controlling the power to the motor?"








It may be even more effective to just have sexy aluminum enclosures, with cables leading in and out of them. I like the look of the finned aluminum heat sink over the battery box on the left side, so with an aluminum-encased controller on the right side and maybe a combined dc-dc/charger on the left, in a matching housing...

I have been purposely *not* doing some of the traditional converted EV stuff with Scrape, to emphasize its "difference" from convention. For example, there is no fuel tank shell with an EV charging plug behind a gas cap. If I did what I wanted with the dc-dc/charger, it would have a very obvious charging port right in the housing. Power goes in here, down to the batteries, back up to the motor controller, into the motor, back to the rear wheel - follow the yellow brick road...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape is getting a new seat, and a smaller intake for the motor cooler. I really like the bike in the pics without the seat (I've been removing the thin fiberglass seat shell to ride it, and sitting on the base), so I designed a new seat that's only slightly larger than the base.








I have been thinking about, and searching for, a really, really, thick piece of leather. Burn my Bat-wing T in it, with some other graphics on the laser, make some kind of aluminum or composite base/frame, and bond the leather to it - done.










I've decided that this is pretty much the final form; no 330mm rear tire. I really like the bike, just like it is. That means I can concentrate on finishing work and details; and simply plug in more powerful drivetrain components as I am able to obtain them.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I fully agree with you on the seat decision. If you wear the right color pants (black), it will look like there is no seat, and it makes the bike look very cool.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> I fully agree with you on the seat decision. If you wear the right color pants (black), it will look like there is no seat, and it makes the bike look very cool.


Thanks Joey!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

T:

When I glance at your bike, the slimness of it appeals to me. The bodywork is sort of "art deco" and has a stand alone quality.

You are also on the right track with the seat shape too.

On any electric vehicle, when the people first learn it is an "EV", they immediately try to look between or behind the bodywork to see the components. They have a need to determine what the difference is that sets it apart. 

I applaud your concept of using the features of the components as a visual highlight. Most everyone else, even the big manufacturers, just slap a plastic panel over the area to "clean it up. 

The front fender needs some reshaping though. At this point it looks "off-the-rack-HD". My eye sees the fender bottom edge coming back and curving up a little before turning down to go down the lower leg. (If that makes any sense).

Anyways, keep at it, I like it.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> T:
> 
> When I glance at your bike, the slimness of it appeals to me. The bodywork is sort of "art deco" and has a stand alone quality.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks Miz! That's a lot of praise to help keep my ego properly inflated!  This little scooter is a blast to build, to ride, and to share with people. The best is yet to come... 






mizlplix said:


> ...The front fender needs some reshaping though. At this point it looks "off-the-rack-HD". My eye sees the fender bottom edge coming back and curving up a little before turning down to go down the lower leg. (If that makes any sense)...


You're dead on there. It's a plastic re-pop of the original 900 Ninja fender. I am just using it as a development form. It will be cut and modified, and some areas re-shaped with foam and fiberglass, then a mold will be pulled from it, and a new carbon fiber fender made. The final shape will probably be very similar to what you described, or at least along those lines. I haven't made it there yet, so the lines haven't gelled in my brain.

I had a factory 900 Ninja fender before, and a slightly better reproduction part before. With this one, it's like they literally smoothed over some of the details to make the mold/production process easier, but it gave me a basic form for what I wanted on Scrape - win-win...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In case I find me a big bottomed honey, I got a big piece of leather for the seat.  Kidding, of course, this should be enough for my little seat, and a little honey seat...









Pretty thick stuff.

















I'm going to laser-emboss it with my TPD Bat-T logo, and some graphic design stuff, and copper rivet it to a hammerformed aluminum shell, based on the poster board pattern.

You didn't think I would do something simple did ya?!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm wondering how you plan to do the passenger seat? Can't visualize anything that wouldn't mess up the look.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm wondering how you plan to do the passenger seat? Can't visualize anything that wouldn't mess up the look.


It was going to slide out of the bigger, deeper, seat but I don't plan to have deep enough sides (if any) on this version to hide it; so it will probably be completely removable and stow inside the body somewhere, until it can be popped on and quickly covered with honey.  It's going to be small and uncomfortable, and will hopefully almost completely disappear from view, in use, so your attention isn't distracted from the more important things.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had planned to put my Bat-T logo in the center of the seat, big and bold, but when I started working on the art, and thinking about what to fill the rest of the dead space with, I remembered the pic of me on Scrape with downtown Columbus as a backdrop, and decided to see what it would look like "vectorized".








(the actual vectors are much sharper than this "reproduction" pdf, then jpg...)

Imagine that burned into the leather, by the CNC laser, with evenly-spaced, hand-docked, copper or bronze rivets around the perimeter, just inside the border.  I'm going to try to get one of the people here with more experience doing this type of vector image art on the laser to hold my hand tonight or tomorrow, and make this happen.

In the meantime, I will get started on the pan. It was going to be a shell, but I decided to go a little easy on how much hammerforming I do. I was going to do CAD/CNC forms to hammer the aluminum over, first rolling it to match the curvature of the base, then fixturing it in the forms, and rolling the sides over - I realized late last night, while running through the processes in my noggin, and thinking through how the metal would bend, that it was going to end up looking like a banana-shaped bicycle seat. 

So, in this rare instance, I have to admit that "simpler" will look much better!  By keeping it rolled, but flat, and concentrating on the details, it will hopefully keep its "edge" and be a little more hardcore. It should look like a proper "painful" chopper type experience.  I am probably going to make the pan a tiny bit smaller than the leather "pad" and hope that the leather eventually bends and wraps over the edge, as it wears.

Finally (whew! ), I might have the pan plated in copper or bronze to match the rivets, so that when you do see it peeking from under the leather it looks appropriately badazz.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the seat idea. Having the pan slightly smaller then the leather will be good, the leather forming around the edge with use will be more comfortable, eventually. The copper rivets will look great with a copper plated pan!

That vectorized image makes you look like Darth Vader on your bike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like the seat idea. Having the pan slightly smaller then the leather will be good, the leather forming around the edge with use will be more comfortable, eventually. The copper rivets will look great with a copper plated pan!...


Thanks Woody!  I simply cannot wait to see this seat on the bike!  It's so nice to have a project at the point where I can obsess over these little finishing details. I think the contrast of copper and carbon fiber is going to be incredible!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...That vectorized image makes you look like Darth Vader on your bike!


Too funny!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Final version, ready to burn. I did a little retouching on the pic, to get the building on the left to show up better, and a little more detail on me and Scrape to show up in the vectors (no longer Darth Vader-ish, though it was fun being dark and sinister-looking); then I added detailing around the rivets locations, which will also allow me to very precisely locate them, and added the lightning bolt.  The crosshair graphics are just Photoshop items, that I liked so much I used them, pretty much as is.









The rivet heads will be a tiny bit smaller than the center dot in the crosshair graphics, so they'll be shadowed a little bit. I was originally thinking about using some kind of antique-appearing domed rivets, but realized that I will be sitting on them - with no padding! 

I have to figure out what's going on the honey seat now...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Makes me think of Brooks Saddles. They have two sizes of flat top rivets that are easy on the posterior.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Makes me think of Brooks Saddles. They have two sizes of flat top rivets that are easy on the posterior.


While working on the graphics, I searched eBay for rivets, to determine the size. Seeing a couple seats like that (might have been those exact seats) is what made me realize I needed something a little "friendlier" than what I was looking for. I realized instantly that there was a reason those rivets are flush or countersunk into the leather! 

Of course, being me, I still decided on a flat, but, button-head, style of rivet, so it has some three dimensional aesthetic value. They'll probably still hurt, just not quite as bad. If it's unbearable, I'll just get a little gel pad "slip" cover made for actually riding the bike...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Could you mock it up to see where the rivet heads are relative to your anatomy?

Possibly just moving them about a bit could place them in less noticeable positions, not under a boney or tender part for instance.

If you are lucky, or just have odd anatomy, it can be a good way to put other people off having a ride without permission.


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## SexyRob (Mar 27, 2012)

love the project man, I'm glad I clicked to view this thread. 

good work on everything, can't wait to see more updates.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Could you mock it up to see where the rivet heads are relative to your anatomy?
> 
> Possibly just moving them about a bit could place them in less noticeable positions, not under a boney or tender part for instance.
> 
> If you are lucky, or just have odd anatomy, it can be a good way to put other people off having a ride without permission.


Rofl!  I'm just going to take one for the Team, take it like a man, right in the old...  I'll just deal with it. I worked for a long time to set the spacing and location of those rivets; zooming in and out, looking at them with different combinations of "ingredients" (profile vector line, border, background pic, Bat-T logo, etc), until I was satisfied that I could live with whatever I find out of place later. It would be more painful to me to move them, than sit on them! 

Note: the one anal-retentive, OCD, "Todd", thing I didn't do was actually measure and plot their distance from the edges, and percentage differences from each other (along the profile curve - they get progressively farther apart as they go back), because I knew it's being burned on leather, which will change no matter how precisely I place them.  Darn animal skin... 







SexyRob said:


> love the project man, I'm glad I clicked to view this thread.
> 
> good work on everything, can't wait to see more updates.


Thanks Rob!  Stay tuned, I'm just getting warmed up...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Could you mock it up to see where the rivet heads are relative to your anatomy?
> 
> Possibly just moving them about a bit could place them in less noticeable positions, not under a boney or tender part for instance.


What is this, Princess and the Pea?  Unless he's wearing speedos  I doubt he'll notice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What is this, Princess and the Pea?  Unless he's wearing speedos  I doubt he'll notice.


 Too funny!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> What is this, Princess and the Pea?  Unless he's wearing speedos  I doubt he'll notice.


Ever had a bit of grit in your shoe?
Sometimes it matters.

But if it were me I would be checking, just in case.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Just wanted to say that I really like what you've done and what you're trying to achieve here Todd. I think the possibilities of creating an entirely new design language for electric vehicles based on their own distinctive components have hardly been explored yet. It's one of the things I find really exciting. I wanted to do something similar with my own motorbike conversion, but eventually realised that it wasn't going to work with a bike that had originally been designed for ICE components, especially the fuel tank. I also realised how much of a challenge it is to combine strong design with basic engineering requirements.

The bit I see as most challenging is how to package the battery pack in a way that reflects its importance. The best example I've seen so far was the first version of the MotoCzysz E1pc. Just wondered if you've given this any more thought?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Ever had a bit of grit in your shoe?
> Sometimes it matters.
> 
> But if it were me I would be checking, just in case.


I plan to Woody - on the bike, on the real seat!  Seriously, as mentioned, if it's unbearable I will have a slip cover stitched up, with a gel pad in it. For right now the design is too critical to even worry about that.

Also, as mentioned before in my build threads, after riding my "hardtail" dragbikes (usually with little to no padding in the seat) on Midwestern USA public roads (pot holes, dips, lumps, and bumps, from extreme weather changes, ICE, and snow plows), this will be a piece of cake. The dragbike style riding position actually results in little weight and pressure on the posterior. The first ride, I was balancing on an unwelded metal plate on a piece of pipe. Subsequent rides have all been on the same 6x6" steel plate solidly attached, but unfinished.








Looking at at it, on the bike, you'll notice that most of that plate is actually forming more of a seat back, than seating surface. Again, that's dragbike influence - it has more to do with keeping you on the, rapidly accelerating, bike than providing a comfy place to rest - it's a back stop. With my extreme forward reach to the low handlebars, I am basically in a three-point "stance" on the bike, with my weight distributed between the three (actually five) points. A "proper" dragbike riding position would also put my feet far back, and lower. My style is street-legal dragbike, with my feet tucked under me, and slightly rearward set. From this position I can literally raise myself off of the seat in an instant (that's how I get over hard bumps - the front wheel telegraphs what's coming), and I can use myself very effectively as leverage to steer and control the bike.

So, I am not really sitting on Scrape, as much as being "perched" on it. Because of my physical size, and past experience, this is a very comfortable position, physically and mentally.








MalcolmB said:


> Just wanted to say that I really like what you've done and what you're trying to achieve here Todd. I think the possibilities of creating an entirely new design language for electric vehicles based on their own distinctive components have hardly been explored yet. It's one of the things I find really exciting. I wanted to do something similar with my own motorbike conversion, but eventually realised that it wasn't going to work with a bike that had originally been designed for ICE components, especially the fuel tank. I also realised how much of a challenge it is to combine strong design with basic engineering requirements...


Thanks Malcolm!  You've pretty much nailed what I am up to with Scrape, from an aesthetic perspective. That is also a huge part of what's making this project so incredibly rewarding for me - it's a fascinating new world, and an intriguing challenge to develop in a world dominated by a century of ICE-dictated perception of "what" a vehicle "is". In the first couple/few pages of this thread, I was intent on making it look like an ICE bike, and kind of naturally evolved into this pursuit.





MalcolmB said:


> ...The bit I see as most challenging is how to package the battery pack in a way that reflects its importance. The best example I've seen so far was the first version of the MotoCzysz E1pc. Just wondered if you've given this any more thought?


You're asking _me_ if _I_ have given a design issue any thought!?! Surely, you must not be a regular visitor to my threads. 

*Answer: Setting & Location.*
The most efficient packaging format for EV batteries is a straight-sided box, but 100+ years of conditioning has led us to the "conclusion" that this is boring in a vehicle; especially a motorcycle, where the almighty engine is prominently displayed, in all its sophisticated, technological, splendor. Looking away from vehicles to a setting and location where a box is viewed as exciting - the traditional (American?) Christmas scene.

Scrape's body was styled with Italian automotive (feminine-inspired) styling cues. It frames the drivetrain, and suggests there is something sexy and special going on. When a person's eyes are naturally drawn into that "scene", it's instantly obvious that something is very different. (Level of expectation was set by the body.) By not starting with a gas tank, and _not_ trying to make the EV drivetrain look like an IC engine, by the time they get to the battery box they're no longer expecting to see an engine's form and lines. The whole setting is mysterious and intriguing, and affords me the freedom and opportunity to present my box as... a box. 

The final trick, which has yet to play out, is the packaging. The Christmas wrapping paper, ribbons, and bows, add to the impression that there must be something really special inside the box. The carbon fiber motor cooling ducts that attach to the bottom of my box, the Bat-T logo plates that will be on the sides of it, and the sculptured lids, will all kind of wrap and present the box as something appealing and special. I am going to purposely, intentionally, glorify the fact that it is - a box.

In all honesty, this is only working because I threw range out of the window. That allowed me to scale the box to the scene. I am counting on technology to provide more range, over time, and using that as a design feature of the bike - it's innate ability to track the pace of technology.

You still awake?! Don't forget to leave Santa his milk and cookies...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

OK, I guess you have thought about just a little 

The box eh? I like it. Funnily enough I came very close to gutting my old G4 Mac and trying to incorporate it into my little Cagiva motorcycle... Sadly the cells I had wouldn't quite fit.

I know exactly what you mean about throwing range out of the window, it's a mere detail that will solve itself in time...

I'll be watching closely to see how your nativity scene plays out. 

Cheers
Malcolm


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> OK, I guess you have thought about just a little ...


Just a wee bit.  I obsess over details that even other design professionals seem to ignore...






MalcolmB said:


> ...Funnily enough I came very close to gutting my old G4 Mac and trying to incorporate it into my little Cagiva motorcycle... Sadly the cells I had wouldn't quite fit...


Nice case. I would split an aluminum sportbike frame, diagonally, right through that, replacing the gas tank with a thinner upper slice, and the engine with the lower section. If I have some free time to play, I might Photoshop that one day. Ideally, pull a mold off the case and make a replica that fits the batteries, and the bike. 






MalcolmB said:


> ...I know exactly what you mean about throwing range out of the window, it's a mere detail that will solve itself in time...


Yup. In the meantime, it makes the whole concept of electric propulsion much more fun. That's a lesson I learned from Woody's Tractor Project - which was the inspiration for this project.






MalcolmB said:


> ...The box eh? I like it...
> 
> ...I'll be watching closely to see how your nativity scene plays out.


Thanks!  (cue Christmas carolers...)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Burned in!  I need to seal it now, before I start farting on it and lose the laser's hard work. I've also decided to do the seat pan in steel, since it's going to be plated anyway, and my current base only needs a little metal added to finish.

















It's just roughed in (hand cut) right now. 40-grit sandpaper makes easy work of detailing the edges, and leaves a rough, suede-like, finish. I'll obsess over that for a little while tomorrow or Saturday morning - I have the photo shoot for the Motorcycle Hall of Fame Saturday afternoon.

I don't know about you, but I think it's much better than the other seat. It's neater, cleaner, and the smaller side profile emphasizes the fact that I am perched on that little tubular pedestal. The leather "pad" also works perfectly with Scrape's retro-futuristic electric musclebike theme.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Junior?!?!?!  This thing is a little beast - and I love, love, love it! I want one!!! 








Even in this rough foam mock-up state this is an impressive piece of work. I can only imagine how awesome it has to be in real life, and Evnetics backs up every ounce of the aesthetic awe, with their classic, unrelenting, power delivery. 

Kudos guys! 


So, now that I am totally obsessed with Jr, I dove into the challenge of getting this little hunk to fit in Scrape. The solution is to pivot it 90-degrees, and let it ride right over the battery box and motor. I have no idea where the dc-dc, and charger, would fit?!  I might have to pull them on a trailer, because this could turn out to be simply irresistable.








Kind of looks like a little robot, huh, lol!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We just wrapped up the shoot for the Motorcycle Hall of Fame! Keep your digits crossed that Scrape is chosen for the exhibit - Rick (the photog) thinks it might be the only electric bike in the running... 









It cleaned up nice, eh?









I love this bike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been thinking a lot about the next, and future, drivetrains for Scrape. I am also simultaneously working on Schism, and while ripping the Toyota differential apart for its chain-drive front system, I freed up the ring and pinion, which in turn got my wheels spinning on a way to use more conventional motors in Scrape, without compromising the slim profile, or the current battery box-led, industry technology tracking, setup. Here's what I came up with.








The whole ring and pinion gear drive system would, obviously, be enclosed in a custom case. I just modeled a really fast mock-up to figure out whether I even wanted to explore the concept anymore.

Here's the Jr/Mars version for comparison:









This was modeled with an HPEVS AC20/Curtis 1238 system, but could also represent a similar DC-based system, like a WarP 7 and Soliton Jr or WarP Drive controller. Junior is an extra inch wider and sticks out quite a bit over the battery box, so I'm not sure how it would look under the narrow body, but it would fit. Their all-in-one box design is convenient, but harder to package in my, aesthetic-biased, tight design constraints.

*What I like about it:*


It's very compact, even more so than the current layout. I have room over the system for more components.
The cooling duct leads almost directly into the motor's air-cooling cap. I can make a carbon fiber cap that seals this directly to the duct.
I think I can also run a finned tube through the cooling duct for the motor controller, providing a nice, neat, singular cooling system that serves both needs.
I can design the upper belt drive section so that the pulleys are held captive by the upper cover, which would make it a quick-change system, allowing very convenient, clean, ratio changes. This could also be done with a chain drive setup if the belt proved unreliable.
With either an AC20 or WarP 7, RPM increases to 6500-ish, and at least 650 amps of current. That should easily allow ~100 mph top speeds, while maintaining fun acceleration from a standing start.
The ring and pinion allows me to run ratios in the 6:1 neighborhood, without having that classic e-bike, table-for-two-sized, rear sprocket. I can run the standard 15/45, 530 chain, setup but have an almost limitless range of ratios.




*What I don't like:*


All the gearing, including a 90-degree change. While it does facilitate using more powerful drive systems, within the set design constraints, it doesn't look like the most efficient path to the rear wheel.  Should I just get over it? 
It's a little "blocky" looking in CAD, maybe that would get better with the enclosure for the drive gears, and a more sexy cover over the controller?
The increased performance is dangerously close to the slippery slope where Scrape starts looking like a racebike to me, and I start putting my life in very dangerous situations, on a consistent basis.  100mph is still safe though, I find it pretty boring on a bike... 


Thoughts, comments?


JRP3, or any other Curtis users, is the cover on your controller plastic or alloy? Is it replaceable?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Plastic, and supposedly it comes off, it must somehow, but my attempts to do so were unsuccessful and stopped when it sounded as if I was about to break something


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Thoughts, comments?


The vertical motor just seems wrong, and the drive angle changes scream inefficiency, but I'm not sure either criticism is valid outside of my inherent bias regarding what a bike should look like.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> The vertical motor just seems wrong, and the drive angle changes scream inefficiency, but I'm not sure either criticism is valid outside of my inherent bias regarding what a bike should look like.


Differentials work at right angles...I don't think a direction change adds enough inefficiency to measure. The belts + sprockets do take away from the simplicity of a direct drivetrain though.

I like the shape of the Jr/Mars config better though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was referencing the look more than actual loss, which is why I admitted it may not be a valid criticism. There is some loss involved of course over a direct chain and sprocket setup.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Plastic, and supposedly it comes off, it must somehow, but my attempts to do so were unsuccessful and stopped when it sounded as if I was about to break something


Sweet, that means I could bust it off, even if in pieces, and replace it with a proper _Todd_'s piece of carved aluminum. 






JRP3 said:


> The vertical motor just seems wrong...
> ...my inherent bias regarding what a bike should look like.





Ziggythewiz said:


> ...I like the shape of the Jr/Mars config better though.


Thanks guys - I was looking for subjective, as much or more than actual technical info. Honestly, I share your views. When I first modeled it, I quickly closed the whole program, almost without saving, because I just didn't like it. I revisited it, and made it far enough to get it posted here and on the Facebook page, but it is a struggle to really get comfortable with.

There's the odd chick you eventually become fascinated with, date, and learn to "love"; and there's the odd chick you tend to walk on the other side of the street from.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


>


I don't like it.
It looks/feels 'clunky'.

Yabert's angle drive on his bike was neater. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48239

If you wanted to have more power you could use two smaller motors, in a Vee formation, pinioned to the same ring gear. One could be vertical behind the pack and controller, the other horizontal under the pack and controller maybe.

I think given you are trying to make it an electric bike rather then a bike converted to electric the Mars layout is better, it would be more how a motor would naturally be mounted if one had never seen an ICE motorbike before.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I don't like it.
> It looks/feels 'clunky'...


I agree with the general consensus here. It's just not very pretty.





Woodsmith said:


> ...If you wanted to have more power you could use two smaller motors, in a Vee formation, pinioned to the same ring gear. One could be vertical behind the pack and controller, the other horizontal under the pack and controller maybe...


I don't really need anymore power than the ME 1003 would provide, I am just exploring options before spending a few grand on a Mars motor and Soliton Jr. Better to be sure that's really what I want than figure it out three grand later. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I think given you are trying to make it an electric bike rather then a bike converted to electric the Mars layout is better, it would be more how a motor would naturally be mounted if one had never seen an ICE motorbike before.


That's really the point. The Mars motor has enough power for the intended purpose, and it just works how it is in the real-life mock-up and Mars/Jr rendering*.*(big "period")


One other thing is, I really like this PM motor, and expect the Mars to be pretty much the same with more power. It's very smooth and ultra quiet at low speeds. That has developed as a part of Scrape's character, and I don't want to do anything to destroy that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...the other horizontal under the pack and controller maybe...


I'm blaming this on you Woody!  I was ready to put this idea to bed, but that last part of your suggestion smoldered and reignited my curiosity. 

















So one 90-degree gear change, with the ring and pinion, which gives me the ratio advantage I mentioned (no giant rear sprocket). Fine-tuning the ratio would still require swapping sprockets, and possibly altering the length of the chain, but would be relatively easy.

A couple interesting points:


The top of the battery box is the chill plate for the controller.
Not seen here would be externally visible tubes, like veins bulging out of the sides of the battery box, going down to a heat exchanger in the ducting.
This would keep the battery box cooler as well.
The contactor, fuses, etc, could be mounted on the chill plate, in front of the controller, restoring a little of the current exposed electrical component theme.
I could also mount some stuff directly on the sides of the battery box - like the Whistler alarm module, throttle pot, etc. If I got really carried away, I can do CAD/CNC sides that have little sculptured mounts for these parts in the sides of the box...  (this idea is also possible on the current version...) The challenge would be for it to look "designed" and not tacked on/tacky.
Carbon fiber covers on the controller, battery box, and motor cooling cap (which would be much different that the factory style cap in the rendering, of course)


Well?  (not saying I'm doing this, or even really leaning this way, still just exploring possibilities at this point...)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Much better.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Much better.


Thanks. 

I have a question for you:

I watched a ton of videos today listening to the sound of AC and DC motors in conversions. Every AC motor seemed much louder than the DC motors. I'm referring to the sound when the vehicle first starts moving - they all make noise as velocity increases. I even listened to videos of your car compared directly to C.T. Freeman's, and one other Fiero I had in my YouTube Favs, same story.

Is this true? Normal? Something else causing it to seem this way? I always thought AC would be quieter but, in retrospect, the cars that I remember being eerily quiet were DC powered.

On the other hand, DC sounds more like a giant electric drill at speed, whereas AC seems to have a more Jetson's like sci-fi whine.

Thoughts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With my car I think most of the noise was from the transmission, it will be an interesting comparison when I get the automatic setup working. Like you I would expect series DC to be louder, and production EV's using AC seem very quite, unless they are being pushed hard. Certainly neither my series DC tractor or 6x6 are very quiet, but again that may be drive line and belt noise more than anything.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> With my car I think most of the noise was from the transmission, it will be an interesting comparison when I get the automatic setup working. Like you I would expect series DC to be louder, and production EV's using AC seem very quite, unless they are being pushed hard. Certainly neither my series DC tractor or 6x6 are very quiet, but again that may be drive line and belt noise more than anything.


Good points. I do remember now that pretty much every production vehicle with electric drive I have heard had the same eery quietness from a standing start. Most, if not all, were hybrids but until the gas motor kicked there was no sound except for the tires crunching gravel. The most memorable was a large Lexus sedan that was tractor-beamed away from me on a very busy street (I was walking, he pulled out of an alley onto the street) and it caught my attention, in the midst of all the commotion, that there was NO sound.

I suppose a part of it could also be motor size and how hard the motors were working to accelerate the vehicle. You have an AC31 compared to Freeman's WarP11, so your motor is probably turning a lot faster a lot quicker to do the same work.

More research is needed.

By the way, I am not sold on any particular motor/controller combo, even if I did pursue this plan; just researching. I could just as easily run a 7" series DC motor and Soliton Jr in that configuration.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I'm blaming this on you Woody!


Don't blame me, I only work here!

Most of the noise from my tractor comes, initially, from the controller whine and then when that stops as the speed increases beyond 1mph all motor noise is masked by chain rattle, mainly from a slightly off centre sprocket.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Don't blame me, I only work here!...








Woodsmith said:


> ...chain rattle, mainly from a slightly off centre sprocket.


I'm surprised Scrape doesn't make more chain noise than it does, because I didn't really try to align the sprockets. I just eyeballed it, and drilled the hole through the shaft for the pin!  It works fine, and is pretty quiet, so I guess my eyeballer still works okay!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I paused the physical work on the seat, to conduct a test. When I did the laser engraving on the seat, I did a few of my Bat-T logos to test the settings on the laser. I have been using one of those as a key ring since then, testing to seat how the laser engraving holds up to abuse, and how the leather looks after being exposed to the elements, and the dirt and grime of daily life.

The engraving is surprisingly durable. It shows virtually no signs of wear or scratching. It should be fine for many miles of azz kissing.  The leather itself bore mixed results. The tanned surface (that was engraved) holds up really well, and doesn't hold dirt. The rough, suede-like, underside is a different story. It's (predictably) a dirt magnet, and looks disgusting. 

I decided that I want to recess the "pad" in a pan with rolled edges to hide this. Between that and sealing the leather (the key ring is unsealed, so far), it should work well.










Of course, being me, this has turned into a major design project!  I created the pan, with a rolled bead bead on the edge, and the sides and back rolled over slightly (to keep the hard beads from pressing into my rump and legs).

The pan is going to be carbon fiber, I think. I have two options to realize it. I had initially intended to machine a flat plastic pan, use heat to roll it, and then roll the edges over. As I was modeling, I realized that since I can bend it so easily in CAD, I _could_ print the pan... Either version would be laminated with a single layer of carbon fiber on each side, and the leather "pad" will be riveted (and possibly glued) in it.

A third, very tantalizing, option is to cut a billet aluminum pan, and hammerform the rolls... If I can cut it, in a reasonable amount of time, on the ShopBot that might be an option.


TBD...


I'm going to "cut" a recess in the recess for a steel mounting plate, with bolts welded to it to be epoxied into the pan; and model a little tail light housing, and then make some decisions and make it happen.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The other option with the leather could be to have two sheets laminated together, rough sides inwards, and then saddle stitched all round. That is a nice look.

My own leather keyring fob is a strip of leather folded and glued back on itself to cover the rough side.

The rolled rim on the pan looks good though.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Years ago, working in a metal fab shop when I was young, the first thing I learned was: "Do you want it straight or looking good?" 

Mostly, it can be the same thing, but sometimes a straight measurement looks crooked. 

You see things every day that look good, but if measured, they are actually not right or even. Take the "Shelby " mustang racing stripes, they taper 1/2" in width across the hood, again on the top and the trunk lid too. If they were painted an even width, they would look wrong due to the convex nature of the panels and the person's viewing angle.

My point is that if given a choice of measured straight or pleasing to the eye, my eye wins every time.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's first feature... 





Woodsmith said:


> The other option with the leather could be to have two sheets laminated together, rough sides inwards, and then saddle stitched all round. That is a nice look.
> 
> My own leather keyring fob is a strip of leather folded and glued back on itself to cover the rough side.
> 
> The rolled rim on the pan looks good though.


I like that idea, but I'm trying to prove I'm still "young" by sitting on a "floating" piece of shoe sole leather, with rivets, no padding, and a hard bead around the edge!  It's how us midlife-crisis-old-farts try to "get the girl". Afterwards, I'll be home with Icy-Hot on my crusty old azz, enjoying the evening news, before my nap... 






mizlplix said:


> Years ago, working in a metal fab shop when I was young, the first thing I learned was: "Do you want it straight or looking good?"
> 
> Mostly, it can be the same thing, but sometimes a straight measurement looks crooked.
> 
> ...


I concur.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Scrape's first feature...


Very nice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Very nice.


Thanks J!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After discussing the idea at a recent 3D Printing Meet-up (Columbus was #1 with the most attendees, and won food, drink, and swag, from Make [I think]), I decided to just machine the seat pan from LDPE; because I had some, and because it machines nice and forms really easily. Before machining, I tested to make sure the spray adhesive would actually "stick" the carbon fiber cloth to it long enough for the resin to set, with a scrap piece of S2 - yup, so on to machining.

The first attempt had some issues. One, I assumed my cad file was properly scaled - it wasn't. It was much larger than the seat pattern. Secondly, I screwed up on the fixture points I had modeled in to secure the part on the second side, and about halfway through machining the second side it cut one tab completely through. There was also no support in the center of the pan, which let it vibrate, and swell, under the pressure of the passing end mill - it was quite loud, and cuts were becoming progressively rougher as the LDPE vibrated and bounced off the spinning end mill. I may have created a new musical instrument though. 

So, I revised the model, adding very substantial fixture points, including two in the center that would support the thin center section as the end mill pushed down and laterally on it.










This time it worked perfectly. No noise, no vibration, and cuts as nice on side B as they were on side A. In the CAM software, I tabbed off the six perimeter blocks. The point was to have something physical in CAD to attach to without guessing at where they were on the first side; and, to have solid points on the table to support the part as it become thinner and weaker. The first "big butt" version is on the left and the correct pan is on the right. I am going to make a "show card", with an engraved information panel, with the big one.


















Now I have to decide whether I am going to spot heat and hand bend it, or model and machine a form and vacuum bag it. We have kilns, so it would be easy to bring it up to an even, consistent, temperature, push it down over the form, bag it, and apply vacuum until it's set. It's also easy to build a mountain out of an easy molehill of a task...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After weeks of (soul) searching, researching, deliberating, and debating (with myself) over whether Scrape or Schism would be my flagship project - Scrape won!  That simply means a bigger percentage of my resources will go to this project, and my best ideas and abilities will be funneled here; at least until another project comes along and knocks Scrape off the throne...

The biggest reason for Scrape winning is "bang for the buck". With maximum-effort, pie-in-the-sky, go-for-the-gusto, ideas I just get more for my time and money by chasing them here. Similarly, I get much better results with exploring the low-budget concepts on Schism. I also started Scrape with the intention of having a "place" to unwind and have fun - letting my imagination run wild in CAD is my ultimate playground. The issue with that, in producing the typical automotive part through CNC processes, is it's usually expensive. Everything is smaller on a motorcycle, and usually reduced by (a quantity of) 100%, so (again) it's a win-win deal; a match made in digital heaven... 

The seat pan was/is a warm-up, and a hint of things to come. The first completely over-the-top project is something to fill the void in front of me. I experimented with small cafe style fairings, but ultimately settled on a good ol' headlight; albeit with the level of sophistication you'd typically find on a Rolls Royce.  I'm probably 60-70 hours in (CAD), so far, and will be well over 100 (maybe closer to 200) by the time it's ready for me to start machining the parts. 











The lighting will be all LED, which complements Scrape's experimental/R&D mission in life perfectly; less of it's precious battery life consumed, but maximum effectiveness gained. The three lights around the perimeter are daytime running/marker lights. The bottom two might serve double duty as turn signals. The inner shell, which is the main housing and reflector will be CNC'd billet aluminum. I _think_ I can machine it on the ShopBot, by doing the bulk of the rough-in on the lathe and either "air-cutting" down to the actual billet, manually eliminating the portions of code that machine those sections away, or using software that allows me to specify a more complex billet material shape - TBD...

My Bat-T is embossed into (modeled directly onto) the surface of the acrylic lens, which will also be CNC machined on the ShopBot - get the drift here, I am designing with what I have in-house at the Columbus Idea Foundry in mind - the ShopBot, Epilog laser, ProJet 3D printer, and casting foundry being the main CAD/CNC avenues for me to explore and display my own capabilities.









The main LED lighting will be on the "floating" inner copper "T", which will probably be a 3D printed and cast part, with ridiculous complexity. The outer housing cover will be carbon fiber. It covers the sculptured "talons" (channels) that house the daytime running lights, and matches the exposed carbon fiber body. Removing it will facilitate bulb changes. I'm thinking about having Eric machine the trim piece from titanium for bragging rights/cool factor. That way the cosmetic aspect doesn't come with a weight penalty; just the need to outsource a component of the design (albeit one that doesn't affect my ability to realize the design - more strategic design and planning). I could also turn that piece manually on the lathe, if necessary, but I would rather for it to be a demonstration of the CAD/CNC process.

The boxes over the headlight are for the onboard Raspberry Pi-based computer. The smaller, lower, one is an open source Raspberry Pi case I downloaded, and the larger one is just a solid block to represent the 4.3" screen. Those will eventually _morph_ into a proper "Todd" style enclosure that mounts on the headlight...

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally got the main housing model ready to cut the first prototype of the headlight.









And cut the foam prototype.



















The point of this prototype is to stick a bulb in it and see how much light hits the road, and in what pattern; and to verify the design on the actual bike.

















I like the design, so far. Test results on its effectiveness coming soon...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very cool, how long did that take to cut out?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Very cool, how long did that take to cut out?


Thanks!  I was on the machine for nine hours, but some of that was programming, and reprogramming (to fix my mistakes). I would say between six and seven hours. A part of the reason for the long machine time is I sliced the model in half to match the thickness of the foam, so I had to cut four different slices (inside and outside surface of each half), plus tool changes, and setup time.

That is in soft foam. If we cast it, I will cut a really high quality, one-piece, foam plug to try lost foam casting; and a higher detail/quality one-piece plug from modeling board traditional for sand casting.

The ShopBot CNC router _will_ cut aluminum, albeit at a fraction of the speed (I had it at max feed rate - 6fps - for the foam). Aluminum would require backing down to 0.2-0.3 fps, especially with the small diameter end mills I need for this part. To explore the possibility, I requested a price for a custom 4.5" long, .250" diameter, two flute, up-cut, carbide end mill. I should have the price on that early next week. Then, I dove into the programming software to see how long it would actually take to cut. The software needs calibrated, so its estimates are always 1/3rd to 1/4 of the actual time needed.

It said 24 hours and 45 minutes for the inside, and 24 hours and 20 minutes for the outside!  *In reality*, that means *three to four days for each side!!!*  Considering it's a community workshop, I don't think people would be too happy with me if I blocked out two weeks of machine time! 

I think it'll be cast, unless I strike a deal with Eric to cut it on one of his CNC mills, that can rip through aluminum like the ShopBot does foam. I would still have to convince him to slow down from his normal pace, for my long skinny end mill to have any chance at not snapping in half, and it would likely still take 20-30 hours...


*First test results:*
Currently, I have a very fancy flood light!  With a 9006 halogen bulb sticking through the center hole, it filled the dark shop with a soft warm light. As expected, my shallow reflector does nothing to actually aim the light and merely spreads it around. I started experimenting, with some success, with pieces of poster board to change the pattern and cut-off but the hot halogen bulb was wreaking havoc on my foam - I no longer have a round center hole. 

Of course, I have ideas... I am going to cut the reflector surface in MDF, with an actual mount for the bulb, so I can develop the reflector. I'll be able to mount that, aim it, and try different ideas until I get the desired result.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Round two of testing: I cut the melted center out of the original headlight mounting surface, in the foam prototype, and made a poster board mini reflector. Much better; I am now able to put light on the floor in front of the light, about the distance required for a low beam light. It took a bit of experimenting with lengths to put the focal length of the bulb in the right place of the little reflector, but I think I found the "sweet spot". I may have to readjust when I get an actual H4 bulb, but I am in the ballpark.









I am going to design a few different versions of the mini reflector in CAD, and cut them in a single, glued-up, MDF block. I can make little spacer rings and find the exact length needed; and start playing with reflector shape and/or little hoods to develop the proper left and high side cutoffs.

I am also killing two birds with one development stone now, as the mini reflector is the size needed for Schism's headlights. 

That hot halogen bulb is literally destroying my foam prototype! It doesn't even have to touch - just get close enough. When it does touch, I end up with holes and curves I didn't model in CAD. Notice the hole on the lower left, and little dip on the upper left?!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How about covering it with aluminum foil, to protect the foam and provide an actual reflective surface?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> How about covering it with aluminum foil, to protect the foam and provide an actual reflective surface?


Bingo! Great minds...  I was actually supposed to do that, both times, but forgot. At the end of the second test, I thought about it because, even though it was starting to develop the pattern I wanted, not much of the actual light was making it to the floor. I assumed it was being absorbed by the poster board and foam, as opposed to being reflected. The rates at which they were heating up, even without contact, seemed to confirm that. It was just too late and, in my sleepy mental haze, I was actually burning the foam up more from the back side from bumping it with the bulb while repositioning the parts.

I would have had holes behind the nice foil reflector! 

I will be going to MDF for the next functionality tests, but will definitely try foil to actually reflect the light. I need to preserve the remaining foam for aesthetic testing on the bike...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I wanted to share a couple of the pics from the photo shoot, that I will be using for Marketing/PR purposes. They're also the first thing you see now on the project's page on my site. Pretty awesome. 

















Too bad the headlight wasn't on it - at least a painted foam mock-up of it would have been nice... Next time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Really needs a better finish on the "tank" for pics like these. At least a layer of epoxy resin and paint would help.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Really needs a better finish on the "tank" for pics like these. At least a layer of epoxy resin and paint would help.


TANK!!!  How dare you!

These are still just glorified build pics, the point is to show it as it develops. I was going to do more work on the body for the shoot, but concentrated on cleaning instead, and let it be what it currently be.  There's no headlight, no lid on the battery box, the seat is just a piece of leather resting on the steel base (no pan), the foot peg brackets need trimmed and detailed, the fork sliders need ground, stripped, and finished, etc, etc - obviously a work in progress...

Stop being so picky!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Dude! You are turning into Arlen Ness/2012 style....

That will be too avant garde to actually ride! 
It is like something to be just looked at and appreciated.

Miz


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Dude! You are turning into Arlen Ness/2012 style....
> 
> That will be too avant garde to actually ride!
> It is like something to be just looked at and appreciated.
> ...


Thanks Miz!   That's mighty high praise!  That's the beauty of beating the heck out of it - it will (hopefully) look like I'm not supposed to be doing it! 

Like this:




But almost dead silent, and I might hire a stunt double to do the stuff my half-century-old azz doesn't need to take a chance on high-siding with.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> TANK!!!  How dare you!


Easier than saying "alien shaped foam thingy where the tank used to be"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Easier than saying "alien shaped foam thingy where the tank used to be"


Lol!  Try a nice four-letter word, like "body"...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Just saw this: http://gas2.org/2012/11/13/meet-scrape-the-custom-electric-muscle-bike/ 

Linked to in this: http://gas2.org/2012/12/03/an-electric-chopper-straight-out-of-japan/#


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Just saw this: http://gas2.org/2012/11/13/meet-scrape-the-custom-electric-muscle-bike/
> 
> Linked to in this: http://gas2.org/2012/12/03/an-electric-chopper-straight-out-of-japan/#


Pretty interesting, especially that he mentioned and linked back to Scrape in that guy's article! 

I actually considered building a chopper, but wanted to take advantage of the big Ninja's mild sporting capabilities, so I chose to build a "muscle bike".


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More on the Shiun bike, looks like a HPEVS system: http://www.technologicvehicles.com/...video-electric-chopper-motorcycle-by-shiun-ja


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to get back to the headlight. There's an aluminum casting class at Columbus Idea Foundry next Saturday, so I arranged for this housing to be cast as a demonstration piece. 

To prepare, I enlarged the center hole, and created a little reflector in it. The rounded ring was brought forward, so that it's back edge is even with the surface of "my inner T" (cheesy, I know ), and then bent to follow the shape of the dished T. That is a small detail that's hard to show in a CAD rendering, but will add to the sophistication of the assembly, in person.









Tomorrow, Amanda and I will run this through the 3D printer's programming software to see how long/expensive it would be to print it. If the time and cost are prohibitive, I will be on the ShopBot cutting it from modeling board.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Getting this puppy ready to be cast Saturday. Hopefully we'll get a successful casting. This time I machined the housing from RennShape modeling board.








It felt more like traditional CNC machining, because it makes chips!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's with the glue, did you have some blowouts? And the material appears to have changed colors?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What's with the glue, did you have some blowouts?...


I machined it in five sections, to match the size and thickness of the (scrap) material I had here. The pieces of it I had were 1.39" thick. The modeling software will split your model into slices that match the thickness of the material, but I did it myself in Rhino to put the splits where I wanted them (not uniformly, according to the material and model thickness).

The epoxy is to bond all those sections together. The snot-colored epoxy is a filler made with talc powder, indeed, to fill in a couple sections that were gouged - operator error! 





JRP3 said:


> ...And the material appears to have changed colors?


The difference in color of the material is just from my camera - whether or not I had the flash on. The pic of the material on the machine was taken on a tripod, without the flash. The others were on the floor, with the flash. The flash washes out the details, and I have to edit the pics to bring the edges out. The pic on the machine, without a flash, reveals the detail of the roughing toolpaths.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Almost ready for molten metal day tomorrow(aluminum casting). 








If you squint a little the blurriness (of the pic) goes away - it's late, I'm tired, and didn't feel like trying again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No casting today.  Scrape's headlight housing was too deep (literally and figuratively) for the resources available. The main problem was the frame wasn't deep enough. The casting guy tried using some kind of trick with the frames he had, that didn't work, and then gave up?

To be continued...

I'm going to take a little break, and bounce back to Schism to catch my breath and then figure out where to go from here. I might start shopping around for someone else to cast it. In the meantime, I will probably start working on some of the other parts of the assembly (rear carbon fiber cover, trim ring, and lens), and the seat. I can actually paint this piece silver and get the headlight working, until I get it cast.

I also did a test, with the aluminum foil, last night - I am definitely on track. It put a pretty nice pattern on the shop floor. I still need to work on the horizontal and vertical cutoffs, but I have ideas for that later.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm experimenting with a larger, more conventional, battery pack for Scrape. I want to keep the motor and controller in view, so it can still serve as a demonstration of EV technology, but the box would dominate the former engine space, like most EV bikes. Of course, it would be a proper "Todd" style box.  I haven't added the details yet, because I am just considering this but, rest assured, they would abound. 









Using my favorite Turnigy 1S2P modules as a benchmark/baseline, I was able to fit 274 of them in the box, for a 6kwh pack. It would probably be a ~100lb pack (the cells weigh about 84lbs), which would push the weight of the bike up between 250 and 300lbs; but would give me the possibility of 75-100 miles of range.

Ideally, I would stuff this box with cells that have similar energy density, and much better cycle life. The Turnigy cells are beyond overkill for Scrape - in this case there is 251 volts and over 1500-3000 amps (65-130c) potential!  A bit much for a cruiser.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This project almost spiraled out of control! It's sooo easy for me to become fixated on potential, and take off on a journey to explore it. Scrape has a LOT of inherent potential, but, that wasn't the original premise; this was:


toddshotrods said:


> ...All I know so far is it's going to be electric, I want to keep the budget as low as possible, and I want to use it to experiment with ideas. It will be the Todd version of Woody's Tractor Project. Range, practicality, racing, etc, are secondary concerns - the prime directive here is fun and learning...


I've actually done a really god job of that so far, because I actually have an appealing, fun, running bike for $500-600. I am determined to remain focused on developing that, and not another over-the-top project - I already have one of those in Schism.

I have a few, intentional, pieces of eye candy in the body, headlight, and seat to make it "me"; and I have the Ninja chassis as a really nice foundation. I am going to try to focus on finding deals on parts for consistent upgrades (that adhere to the original premise), and finishing the eye candy parts I already have.

On that note: I might revise the seat. I have been dragging my feet on finishing it because the engraved leather inset, carbon fiber pan, version just isn't pulling my trigger, so to speak. I want it to be more "hardcore", so I am researching options for an all-metal, engraved, and rolled, version... TBD


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We've been so busy with Schism that I haven't had time to play with my toy for a while. I also needed to back away for a bit to avoid getting caught up in extreme, perfectionist, ideas on this project - they were creeping in...  To pacify my need for excess, I worked on Schism until I got it out of my system. Eventually, I knew the need to do something simple, easy, and fun, would resurface - and ol' Scrape was there waiting for me. 

I shook off the desire to totally recreate the seat, and picked up where I left off by forming the LDPE seat pan. Neat, clean, easy, process - just a heat gun, clamps, weight, and patience.

































As intended, it's rolled to fit the shape of the base, and then rolled over slightly on the outside and rear edges to relieve the pressure of the bead digging in my azz. 

Next, I need to fabricate the mounting bolt plate. Then, it will be ready to laminate with carbon fiber...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still a little burned out on Schism, and looking for things to help me relax and enjoy the weekend, I decided to experiment with a prototype mount for Scrape's headlight. I had already drilled and tapped the modeling board main housing plug, so today I did a quick 2D drawing and cut it on the ShopBot, from .125" aluminum sheet.










The wooden block is mocking up the 4.3" screen that will occupy that space, and a little case for the Raspberry Pi onboard computer will fill the gap between it and the headlight bracket. It will probably mount to this bracket.











This mount will actually be a sculptured 3-dimension CAD/CNC/TIG'd piece. I just wanted to make sure I really like the light mounted like this before I get lost in designing the real mount. That will probably also be something I do when I need to stop and relax.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been thinking about the large battery box, pretty much daily. Typical of EVs, the one of first questions people usually ask me is how far it will go - the range issue has been drilled in people's heads, even those with no knowledge of EVs and no active interest in them - they seem to always be familiar with "range anxiety". 

Since the main goal with this project, beyond my personal enjoyment, is to use it as an educational tool, it seems like a good idea for it to have respectable range numbers. It would also mean more seat time for me;_ i.e._, more enjoyment. Today, I mocked the wooden mock-up plate on the side of the bike, and I actually like it!









I just need to decide how I want to make it and I think this is a go. The real box would fit inside the frame and body better, and will likely be a combination of aluminum and carbon fiber; designed to be modular, so I can implement it quickly and keep adding components to it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Another benefit of the larger battery box is I can fit 24, 40ah, LiFePo cells in it and run a traditional EV pack. That's 3Kwh, hopefully enough for about 30 miles of range in normal easy riding, and maybe 40-50 when putt-putting around in town and/or purposely "hypermiling"? I think, with the light overall weight of the bike, a 72 volt system would have enough guts to gear it for highway speeds, and fun low-speed performance. The best parts are it would only cost 20-25% of what the LiCo RC cells would cost (albeit with half the Kwh), and would provide thousands of theoretical cycles, instead of hundreds.









Maybe by the time I have enough pennies saved up, there will be a dependable, safe, pouch option, with a reasonable lifespan, available to work towards the holy grail of 100 miles of range.

The "downside" to this is, because it would be so easy to implement and produce such excellent results, it has me wrestling with the decision of whether to do this first, and have a fully functional EV, or get Schism up and running first and get back to this idea. I can build a logical case for either option.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After letting it rest for a bit (from the unproductive casting attempt), I am slowly getting my head back into the headlight. The first step was the mock-up mount to see the modeling board plug on the bike, to get a better sense of the concept. What I realized is I really like the housing. Originally, it was supposed to have a carbon fiber cover over the back. The channels are to run wires to the three daytime running lights, and were supposed to be hidden by that cover.

I like them. This housing in aluminum, with those channels, would be pretty awesome - not something I want to hide. So, I redesigned the trim ring to fit the housing.









The plan I'm developing, in my head, right now is to have curved metal tubes - that lead to little machined/fabricated base/sockets for the LED daytime running lights - "floating" in those channels - and connecting to a machined/fabricated metal base/socket for the main bulb. So, kind of Borg like - with a combined mechanical/organic aesthetic.

Make sense?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

We understand


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> We understand


Lol, that's it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've finalized the actual battery box size and shape. I can fit 4, 35ah, AGM, wheelchair type batteries; 24, 40ah, CALBs; or 96, 15ah, Headways. This box opens the potential for me to do a lot of testing and constant upgrades with Scrape.










That being resolved, I cut a test panel from a scrap piece of pegboard to test the size and aesthetic - me like. 










Now, to make a final decision on the construction, and pull the trigger. I have curves set up to cut MDF/plywood hammerforms to build it in aluminum sheet metal. It's just the profile of the box, that would get rolled around the perimeter with a .750" round-over bit on the router table, and then a slightly smaller wood form to sandwich the metal, and keep it from warping as the edges are hammered around the lower form. The entire perimeter would be radiused, and then there would be ribs and crossmembers added to make the box rigid and a structural member of the bike's chassis. Internally, there will be more ribs that allow me to bolt in racks for different battery configurations.

If I go that route the main box would be TIG'd together, but I'm thinking about using rivets and adhesive for the structural members, ala Lotus, to reduce warping, and to experiment with it.

Alternatively, I could do either a carbon fiber box, or a metal frame with smoked Lexan side panels...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had everything set up, but just couldn't get my heart into that hammerformed, sheetmetal, battery box idea - so I'm back to the CAD _drawing board_. There wasn't enough detail in that box, for the amount of work it was going to take to make it. I like how you can see what's in the box, in the CAD renderings, so I'm going to do smoked Lexan side panels in a framed enclosure.









The outer curve is the perimeter, and the size the internal walls of the box must be. The next curve in is what/where I want the inside edge of the frame/outside edge of the Lexan panel. The (rough) inside curve is for an engraved ring in the Lexan. It will have bolt holes around its perimeter, and my first choice is copper (maybe plated) fastners of some sort - so it would be copper against the dark smoked plastic.

As for the frame, the most reasonable plan is to do a carbon fiber housing that also creates the shell. Then, I am totally in my element. I can create foam plugs on the ShopBot, and do the carbon lay-up/bagging myself. I'm not 100% set in that direction though.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Progress has been nonexistent on Scrape because I have been wrestling with this large battery box plan. I just can't come to something I really like, so I might put the large box on hold for a while and stick with the small box. The immediate disadvantage is I can't stuff in four, cheap, AGM, wheelchair batteries, but I can easily fit 30 of the 10ah Headways, for about double the price and actually have a little more range (10-15mi, est.), plus a much longer life. It also keeps the weight down - which was one of the original goals.

This is all at 48 volts. I think I am going to keep Scrape running on 48 volts for a little while because I get to take advantage of the cheap golf cart stuff available (controllers, DC-DC, contactors, etc). I'll eventually double that, when the stars (components and budget) align. For now it keeps me focused on just having pure, simple, fun - the original intent. 

If this plan sits well with me after stewing for a bit, I am going to start on version 1.1 of the current drive system. I want to fabricate an aluminum structure to run between the original front and rear engine mounts, that will serve as a structural part of the chassis, essentially replacing the ICE as a stressed member. The small battery box halves will bolt to it, and the controller and electrical components on top of it. This will give me lots of "engineered" aluminum stuff to design and develop, keeping my attention on having fun with design, and costs down (mainly just the price of surplus aluminum). It also eliminates the need for the carbon fiber body to be a structural member of the chassis, at least for now, and lets me concentrate on developing its aesthetic, outer, skin.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Returning to my small box concept, also reminded me of one of the possible goals I was considering for this project - building the lightest possible bike, and exploring the limits of performance and efficiency with it, as opposed to building the typical, relatively heavy, battery-stuffed EV. It's challenging to remain focused on that plan though because, with current high power density, RC, LiCo battery technology, I am limited to around 30 miles of range for ~$3000. The same amount spent in large format LiFePO4, with a large box, moves it tantalizingly closer to triple digit range numbers. The momentum swings heavily in that direction; fueled, in no small part, by the persistent, almost-requisite, EV question (how far will it go?). It's like resisting the pull of a tractor beam to not succumb to that, when you can easily widen the eyes of the skeptical and curious, and bolster the "street cred" of EVs and the EV community, with "100 miles!" 

The problem with the LiFePO4/large box plan is it becomes a pig, relative to what it is with the small box. In fact, the stuffed large box seems to send Scrape spiraling away from most of my original goals. The battery weight, at least, triples meaning more torque is needed to do the same job, meaning less range than the most idealistic paper projects would suggest. Heavier materials are needed to mount the box and reinforce the chassis to support it, and maintain torsional rigidity, obviously creating more weight to move around. This all kind of negates implementing extreme weight saving ideas and techniques, because the percentage of weight lost is almost insignificant (for the time and money needed to achieve it), and the more traditional approach of just shoving more batteries somewhere seems to make more sense...

Get where this is leading?  Unfortunately, it is kind of the state of market and society led, EV development. Tesla's Model S is incredible - I would _l-o-v-e_ to have one - but it's also morbidly obese. It's the arguably (please not here though) the best route to meet their goals for the vehicles and company. Discussions over the Leaf's range, often involve stuffing more batteries in it...

I want to explore the alternative.


_What if_: I really adjusted my "needs" (it's still a toy/fun project, not daily driver/commuter) to deal with less range?
_What if_: I concentrated on making the bike as light as possible, to use as little energy out of the pack as possible?
_What if_: I went 180-degrees in the opposite direction of the normal EV development plan?
Where would I end up?
 
That's where I think the Scrape journey is headed... 


The aforementioned extreme weight saving ideas are things like carbon fiber wheels, carbon brakes, titanium axles and fasteners, etc. Starting with a 350 lb bike, shaving 50lbs off for thousands of dollars spent might seem stupid, compared to just stuffing a few more cells on; but with a 200lb bike, that's 25% of its weight - gone! What would that mean for range and performance? What would such a, relatively high powered, featherweight, bike be like to ride?

I'm also the ringer in this equation, that makes it all make sense. At 125lbs, I will be able to really maximize the effects of, and appreciate, that featherweight plan. Even from the humble 48 volt beginnings, I think my weight will make it possible to achieve respectable performance. I can accelerate quicker than normal traffic speeds, with a 2.5hp PM motor, with 100 amps of current. That should allow me to gear it for highway speeds, and still have spirited acceleration, when I have 300-500 amps to play with...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Doh! Such a simple thing, that was right in my face the whole time - a medium sized box, of the same configuration I have, that will fit more batteries, without changing the theme and overall goals of the bike.









By simply extending the current "battery box" format up another six inches, I can fit four AGM wheelchair batteries now, and 16, large format, 40ah, CALB CA series batteries later. I'll have a range of 10-15 miles with the AGMs, at around 100lbs; then double that range and chop the weight in half. The reason for starting with the AGMs is I can spend the other $750 on getting the bike street legal and ready - otherwise for the same $1000-1500 I would have a bike capable of 20-30 miles, that wasn't ready to ride. I'll also be able to document the changes from AGM to LiFePO4.

The important thing here is that, conceptually, Scrape doesn't change. It's still a visual portrayal of an electric vehicle - possibly even more so, as the extra six inches really make the "battery box" pop. It still actively communicates the EV philosophy, with a bold box, motor, and controller in place of the ICE (the controller will be in the blank space over the motor and behind the box). It allows me to continue on the path to develop the lightest possible (weight) vehicle. It allows me to continue with the plan to track the growth of the industry technology by packing that box with the latest greatest battery technology, and evaluate its capabilities.

Simple.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

toddshotrods said:


> Simple.


I like it.

Many times, the simple appearance is the most difficult to achieve.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> I like it.
> 
> Many times, the simple appearance is the most difficult to achieve.


Thanks Joey. Agree 100%, especially for a nut like me. 


I haven't tested it in CAD yet but, theoretically, moving from LiFePO4 to LiCo should yield the same doubling in range. I would then also go from 48 volts/~400 amps, to ~300 volts/ ~1500 amps. Headways, would probably yield a nice middle ground between those two, more suited to Scrape's mission in life.

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just remember you won't get the C rates from LiCo that LiFePO4 provides.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Just remember you won't get the C rates from LiCo that LiFePO4 provides.


Don't you have that backwards?! Turnigy cells have a c-rating of 65-130! 

I got LiCo from the description, in the fourth paragraph:
*



... built with a LiCo nano-technology substrate complex and an all new CNT (carbon nano tube)...

Click to expand...

*I guess I should just call them LiPo to avoid confusion, since they do say they're lithium polymer.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah generally LiCo is used to describe low C rate high capacity cells like Tesla used in the Roadster, and LiPoly or Lipo describes the high C rate cells you're talking about.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah generally LiCo is used to describe low C rate high capacity cells like Tesla used in the Roadster, and LiPoly or Lipo describes the high C rate cells you're talking about.


Duly noted. I rapped my own knuckles with a ruler.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal entry, 03.28.13:_

I've been almost miserable here in Columbus, because the culture seems to be, _why push to do anything extreme when "good enough" works well enough to get by_? That is totally counter-culture to my whole philosophy on, and approach to, life. I have pretty much given up on working with anyone here, except my engine guru guy for Schism, and spend most of my time in seclusion quietly pushing myself to be more/do more. I still enjoy teaching and mentoring, but in ways that keep them separated from my _real_ work. I teach teaching welding and machining, and a "Master Class" series we're developing, at the Columbus Idea Foundry.

I have been struggling with Scrape because it was kind of born out of my immediate circumstances, and feels like a mediocre compromise, at times. I actually had the same problem with Schism, to the point that I considered giving it to the Inhaler Project, the Columbus Idea Foundry, and the area, and moving on. I decided instead to reclaim it, strip it of any mediocre ideas and hands, and make it "me" again. The return on that investment has been exponentially more than I expected, so I have turned my attention to Scrape, to follow the same course of purging and purifying. The good thing here is I actually never seriously considered abandoning Scrape, so there must be some serious "_magic_" locked inside... 


Fresh off a 12-hour CAD design stint to push Schism's "Spirit of OCD" hood ornament through (after days of modeling on the grille, and about eight hours of work the previous day on the ornament), I couldn't wind down last night, but wanted to pull my thoughts and energy in a different direction. I started by doing some sketching for Scratch (it's still very much "alive", and gets periodic attention), and weaved my way back to the more practical concern of making Scrape more applicable to my needs and desires.


* What I like:*


The basic concept of the fun, "simple" (for me), commuter bike; developed, at least initially, on 48 volts, with reclaimed forklift/golf cart parts.
The education/demonstration format, highlighting the "battery box", motor, and controller.
The Ninja wheels, brakes, and main suspension components.
The floating seat - love it.


*What I'm lukewarm about:*


The body. I actually love the shape, but am still uninspired, for some reason (maybe just the specific application?). Notice, I never resumed work on it?
The Ninja frame. It's there because it was there. It doesn't really make sense to me, from a design perspective, and I have attempted to creatively work around it, but it bothers me. That's also, probably, the biggest reason I never bothered to resolve the titling issue (~$300).
The body was also designed, specifically, to cover that frame.
The overall profile of the bike. It's nice, but kind of stuck halfway between my preferred dragbike/chopper style, and a normal bike. I tried to label it a "musclebike" to make myself believe in it, and I do think it looks _nice_, but my heart is not sold on it.


So somehow, in the haze of having been lost in CAD for, literally, half of a day, and feeling more like "Todd" than I have in a couple/few years, at around 3am, I came up with the idea for Scrape 2.0.




A new CAD/CNC billet aluminum frame that assembles all the things from the "like list" above, lower, cleaner, and meaner, than they are - with a clear image of _what_ it is.
It would go from being a "what's it" to a recreation of my first bike - a 72 Kawasaki 500 H1-B, 2-stroke - one of the grossest polluters ever, reborn as a _green machine_. That was the original plan for Scratch, but it has evolved into, well, a real scratch-built, totally original, advanced, concept bike. More on that someday...
I still have my original title, so it would technically be that bike - reborn.
I will post CAD models and/or sketches of what this would look like when I can - I am really leery of going back into CAD right now, lol.
*

What I love:*


It solves one of my biggest dilemmas/wishes for Scrape - for it to be more easily transportable. Right now, I need either a trailer behind my car, or a truck or van.
This new design could be disassembled into two or three subsections, by simply pulling pins, and stuffed into the back seat of my little Saturn!  That enables my plans to work the way I want them to. I want my entire life/business to be (materially) light, mobile, compact, unrestricted, and conducive to being where ever/whenever, at the drop of a dime. Schism is a more formal business tool, and can be professionally transported, and left, where needed. Ideally, I would love to be able to pack Scrape up and go as easily, cheaply, and efficiently, as possible - this would realize that goal. Kind of like being able to grab the iPad and go do business, as opposed to a whole setup with laptop, projecter, table, handouts, etc.
It might even be possible to make the three pieces small and light enough to travel by air or sea like luggage! 
It's true dragbike/chopper style, no compromises.


* What I still have to resolve:*


Internally - it would have a "gas tank" again - to create the '72 H1-*E * theme. I kind of liked the fact that Scrape was EV-unique in that area. The tank shell _would_ be functional, housing the controller and electronics, so I am working on ways to make myself like the idea.
Externally - I will only do this if I can develop a plan of implementation that doesn't compromise the fact that I have a (moderately) functional bike now, and that quickly improves upon that. That means I need to be able to develop the new frame independently (as much as possible), and swap the new parts over to it, and regain functionality, as quickly as possible.


*This is not an actual plan right now, just an idea - but it does have merit, lots of it. 
*


More to come... Did you really read all that crap?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> More to come... Did you really read all that crap?


Yup!



toddshotrods said:


> _Journal entry, 03.28.13:_
> 
> I've been almost miserable here in Columbus, because the culture seems to be, _why push to do anything extreme when "good enough" works well enough to get by_? That is totally counter-culture to my whole philosophy on, and approach to, life. I have pretty much given up on working with anyone here, except my engine guru guy for Schism, and spend most of my time in seclusion quietly pushing myself to be more/do more.


The Columbus folks read this don't they?



I see where you are coming from. I also need that excitement and drive in a project. I can see where 'good enough' is acceptable but that's with projects owned by someone else where I follow their rules.
For mine it has to be the way I see it, the way I want it, the way I think it should be.
It is also one reason for having more then one project on the burners.

I can figure the teeny tiny details of one project while working on the fundamentals of another.
I am currently evolving the rear end of the trike, how the battery box works, how it joins onto the motor and swing arm at one end and the front axle and cabin at the other. At the same time I am designing detail in a model railway layout that includes how I am going to model an army truck converted to railway wheels as a scrap metal yard shunter in 4mm/ft scale. It may mean building a tiny EV, almost from scratch, that is only 2 1/2" long!


Looking forward to where this takes Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Yup!...


I'm worried about you Woody! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...The Columbus folks read this don't they?...


I think one or two might, occasionally, but where I stand, how I feel, and what I think of this area, are not secrets. I am nowhere near being passive-aggressive, non-confrontational, non-aggressive, or quiet - what's going on inside me is generally a known _commodity_... 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I see where you are coming from. I also need that excitement and drive in a project. I can see where 'good enough' is acceptable but that's with projects owned by someone else where I follow their rules.
> For mine it has to be the way I see it, the way I want it, the way I think it should be.
> It is also one reason for having more then one project on the burners.
> 
> I can figure the teeny tiny details of one project while working on the fundamentals of another...


That, my friend, is why we get along so well.  I think most people thought trying to do Schism _and_ Scrape would result in not making any significant progress with either but, just as you pointed out, they kind of push and pull each other. I also tend to push myself so hard on small details that I regularly burn out, and need a place to get away from one, then the other... 

That railroad project sounds like fun! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Looking forward to where this takes Scrape.


As you wish, sir.  A little Thursday afternoon chicken scratching (still afraid to open Rhino!) 









The frame is a solid piece of whittled billet aluminum, with recesses to accept the battery box halves, seat mount, and neck; plus a cutout for the motor, and turned/welded mounts for the swing arm. I've figured out that I can, indeed, build this whole thing on the side and swap everything over when it's ready.

The rocker arm front suspension would use the aluminum sliders from the Ninja chassis, welded to a custom assembly, that would also accept the factory "clip-on" handlebars. This all keeps the Ninja wheels, brakes, etc, all intact and working.

It really is Scrape 1.0 smashed down, and rearranged a bit, with a new tank shell in place of the body. This is the same thing I did to Schism a couple/few months into the process, when I realized it just wasn't "me" (radical/extreme).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like the look a lot, except for the square battery boxes. Just looks too clunky, and "wrong" for the rest of the bike. I think you can do better, put some shape on them. One of my favorite battery treatments in a bike are by Motoczysz Not that you need to copy that, but think outside the "box" so to speak.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I like the look a lot, except for the square battery boxes. Just looks too clunky, and "wrong" for the rest of the bike. I think you can do better, put some shape on them. One of my favorite battery treatments in a bike are by Motoczysz Not that you need to copy that, but think outside the "box" so to speak.


Thanks J.  I know what you mean, but I really like the boxy boxes, partially because they stick out (like a sore thumb) so much. Of course, I have never finished them either, so it might be a matter of me seeing what I see in my head, and everyone else seeing a couple folded pieces of aluminum... 

The good thing though is they're not permanent. They will bolt to the new frame, just like they're bolted to the current Lexan panel, so they can always be replaced with something swankier.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm with JRP on the battery boxes but, hey, you know what you are after with them in the long run.

I love the front spring and partiucularly the motor mount! 

It is why I am struggling with the motor on the trike. I want it to hang out there, cantilevered off the back of the frame with just the swing arm for company. It is just the damn gearing I need to sort without spoiling the look.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> _..._I actually never seriously considered abandoning Scrape, so there must be some *serious "magic" locked inside*...


Gobs of it!  When I work on a design project, I am attempting to draw out the hidden potential of whatever the object is. Many things, and most people, are loaded with potential that is never fully explored, mainly because of the aforementioned "good enough" mentality - which I consider to be a form of apathy. Imagine if the human species had decided that its current form of evolution was "good enough" a million years ago.

Since the decision to covert Scrape to an EV, I have been trying to tap into that hidden potential. As mentioned, I never seriously considered abandoning it because I knew it was in there, somewhere. This has been, and continues to be, arguably, my favorite project; ever. In spite of that, every time I tried to run with the concept, I hit a creative brick wall.

We just vaporized that wall!  Incredible, amazing, and densely packed raw potential.

When something is truly loaded with potential, it doesn't require extreme measures to extract it. Even simple ideas, unsophisticated processes, and small investments of resources, produce tremendous results.

Such is Scrape 2.0.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OT


toddshotrods said:


> That railroad project sounds like fun!


Here's a link to the layout Arch and I are proposing...
http://www.modelrailwayforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=20027#post20027


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> OT
> 
> Here's a link to the layout Arch and I are proposing...
> http://www.modelrailwayforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=20027#post20027


Can't see the images without being a member, and I'm not joining anymore forums, I spend too much time on the two I'm on!  I might see something I like there...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Can't see the images without being a member, and I'm not joining anymore forums, I spend too much time on the two I'm on!  I might see something I like there...


Here you go.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Here you go.


Thanks, and nice! That software looks like fun, and your project makes me miss playing with my old model railroad - both make me realize why I shouldn't _go there_!


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Ok, love the look... Other than the boxes... Sorry... But everything else is so forward looking that the boxes throw it off. Maybe if the tank was designed to tie it together that might look better. But hey, my wife says I have no style... So, what the heck do I know...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Ok, love the look... Other than the boxes... Sorry... But everything else is so forward looking that the boxes throw it off. Maybe if the tank was designed to tie it together that might look better. But hey, my wife says I have no style... So, what the heck do I know...


Thanks and no problemo!  If everyone likes everything, I'm not doing anything noteworthy as a designer. If I get it right, over time, maybe the final product will grow on you guys; or, you might just hate it more!  I'm okay with either outcome, because it created an opinion that needed to be expressed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This thing is really fun to play with. I've determined that making my initial weight goal of ~200lbs is possible with the new frame. The frame should be around ~20lbs, the battery box around ~25-30lbs, the heaviest motor (Mars ME 1003) 39lbs, plus controller, electronics, etc. With careful planning and attention to detail I can keep that really close to 100lbs. I think the front and rear suspension stuff, combined, is less than 100lbs so, on paper, I'm there; and close enough to become a reality.

If, I really like it and decide to go for the limits, someday, titanium axles, shafts, and fasteners, would shave a nice chunk of weight off (almost everything else is already aluminum, with the new frame). Then, at the outer extremes are carbon fiber wheels and carbon brake discs. I think that would get me dangerously close to the 150lb fantasy weight. They would also drastically reduce sprung and rotational weight.

Then, I started thinking about what I would do with a 150-200lb bike, and total weight of 275-350lbs (me with various gear on, the bike in various states of evolution).


"Hypermiling" seems like fun, to see how much range I could extract from different batteries.
Running in a 48v class, then a 96v class, at Bonneville sounds like a blast - cheap fun, especially considering the fact that I could take it in my Saturn. 
Perhaps, with the Mars motor, and a Turnigy pack, even putt-putting down the standing miles, here in Ohio and in Texas, might be entertaining.
With that combination, and the light weight, drifting and smoky burnouts might also be easily attained.
Shows, almost anywhere, due to the ease of transporting it; and dino juice sipping nature of my daily driver.
Going to schools and demonstrating the merits, and cool factor, of EVs.
And, my favorite, unpacking it and riding around at public events, giving pretty women their first EV smile - I mean educating the general public about EVs!  (better get that passenger seat figured out...)
The best part, is I don't need a huge investment to start any of it. I'll eventually cough up a couple/few hundred and build the frame, and then it's all incremental progress, which also adds to the fun, documenting the differences.

In all, an awesome plan that fits my current and mid-range goals perfectly.

Plus, the awesome design ideas I'm finally swimming in...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Todd. I'm glad you've decided to move away from the legacy frame. It was really holding the design back. The spine frame is good and I like the square battery boxes – they make me think of saddlebags. You could even go the whole hog (pun intended) and cover them with riveted leather 

You're pretty much limited in the shape of the battery boxes if you want to keep connections simple and reliable. Cylindrical cells would obviously give you the option of a hexagonal packing arrangement, but I would stick with prismatic cells myself. Keep the electrical side as clean and transparent as possible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Todd. I'm glad you've decided to move away from the legacy frame. It was really holding the design back...


Thanks Malcolm, agreed! 





MalcolmB said:


> ...The spine frame is good and I like the square battery boxes – they make me think of saddlebags. You could even go the whole hog (pun intended) and cover them with riveted leather ...


 One version of the boxes does have a lot of rivets, but I had not yet considered leather!  I guess it would match Schism's leather "luggage bags" though. 





MalcolmB said:


> ...You're pretty much limited in the shape of the battery boxes if you want to keep connections simple and reliable. Cylindrical cells would obviously give you the option of a hexagonal packing arrangement, but I would stick with prismatic cells myself. Keep the electrical side as clean and transparent as possible.


That's what led to the blatantly harsh box shape. I could round them off, add some curves, and figure out a reasonable plan for connections, but this is technically the ideal form. Initially, I was doing everything I could to make Scrape look like a gas bike (see the first few pages), then it hit me - emphasize the fact that it's electric, a different animal. We concentrate on the motors, but the battery box is actually the main feature of an EV - it's the key to its performance, and the number one packaging concern - so I decided to really, really, focus on it, the motor, and the controller together as a package - not conceal it.

I actually plan to run Headway cylindrical cells, and Turnigy LiPo cells, (two separate packs) and the squared off "battery box" gives me complete freedom to stuff as many of them in as possible. If Turnigy's 130c claims are true, I'll have almost 400hp stuffed in that little cubicle!  Even half of that, at 65c, and/or allowing for sag, is pretty awesome, and more than I can feed through the Mars motor.

Ultimately, I need a really badazz little motor, the size of the Mars motor. Oops, there I go again!  (((Hopelessly addicted to power and speed)))


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sitting in a greased pan, at the crest of a very slippery slope. 









I have some CAD stuff to finish up on Schism before I let myself loose in this one, but I had the basic components already, so why not let them get acquainted? 

The scale on these components is correct, and shows a little difference in relationship between wheels and drivetrain, from the freehand sketch. I like it because I have room to play, and can tuck the tank in exactly where I want it. The profile curve, representing the frame, is not accurate, and is just helping me think.

Next, I'll throw the seat in, and probably my digital alter ego, to see how it fits...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*A common thing:* My sketch was way off. I made the typical artist's mistake of drawing the things I was most enamored with larger than they are in real life. The motor and battery box turned out to be much smaller in relation to the wheels and tires. As a result, the bike ends up being lower and longer when all the pieces are arranged as closely as possible to the idea presented by the sketch.

*A not so common thing *(read, _almost never happens_)*:* It's so dramatically different that I, Todd, am having a hard time wrapping my head around it!!! 

Don't get me wrong I love radical, extremist, concepts. The issue is it changes the function of the bike so much. It would not be possible to use the bike in many of the ways it can currently be used. For example, yesterday I gave a group of suits a quick sample of Scrape in motion. I clicked it on and whipped it around in a tight 180 out of my studio, then an immediate 90-degree to the left, and zipped down the aisle through the Idea Foundry, before they could even get around the first corner. On this style dragbike that would have required much more back and forth, multi-point, maneuvering. 

Without further ado, the ultra radical Scrape dragbike:









Obviously still just a rough-in, to see how things play out, this is the idea presented in the sketch - all of the "likes" from the current bike, on a custom billet aluminum frame; and with rocker arm front suspension, and '72 H1 style tank shell.

I do love its clean simplicity. I had a design language I used to live by, until I started Schism, that I called "Minimalistic, Elegant, Sophistication" - this is it in a nutshell. 

The tank shell is orange-tinted, cast, resin; because my original bike was metallic orange.  I would actually paint the top of the tank and fade the paint out on the corners, leaving the sides in see-through orange resin, add some graphics, then clear everything. The controller, and electronic components, are in there in a cutout in the frame, making the tank shell halves their covers.

With smoked polycarbonate or acrylic covers, I was able to stuff 56 Headway 15ah cells in the boxes. With a sculptured bulge welded into each side box, I can easily bring that up to 60 total cells, which would give 30-45 miles of range; at 48v/600amp. When it's time to move up from 48 volts, I would likely go LiPo.

Now to stare at it for a few more days to figure out whether I have finally gone too far, even for me. 

Opinions, positive or negative, welcome (but not always followed).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Those proportions look a lot nicer.

I'd still be tempted to put slightly larger radius bends on the vertical edges of the battery box, to round it a little.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Those proportions look a lot nicer.
> 
> I'd still be tempted to put slightly larger radius bends on the vertical edges of the battery box, to round it a little.


Thanks Woody.  Nope. 






toddshotrods said:


> ...The issue is it changes the function of the bike so much. It would not be possible to use the bike in many of the ways it can currently be used. For example, yesterday I gave a group of suits a quick sample of Scrape in motion. I clicked it on and whipped it around in a tight 180 out of my studio, then an immediate 90-degree to the left, and zipped down the aisle through the Idea Foundry, before they could even get around the first corner. On this style dragbike that would have required much more back and forth, multi-point, maneuvering...


I think I've solved the maneuverability issue. By switching from rocker arm to girder style front suspension, I can crank the steering axis up from the ridiculous 45-degree angle  to a nice, middle-of-the-road, 30 degrees. With the bike being so narrow, I should also be able to turn farther lock-to-lock, giving me a relatively tight turning radius (in theory).

I'm also more comfortable with the girder geometry at higher speeds, extending the range of possible uses for the bike from street cruising, to drifting, to safe "top speed" runs at Bonneville.

For an initial test of the idea, I rotated the fork tubes up to 30-degrees, and it looks nice - probably better; more interesting. Most importantly, it can still be based on the ZX6 fork sliders, preserving that whole setup.

I also forgot to mention that I am planning on a "convertible' riding position. The plan is to locate one set of pegs in front of the battery boxes, for a typical, feet-forward, American V-twin style, folded, riding position. The second set will double as a "competition" lay-down set of rear pegs for ultimate control/aerodynamics at higher speeds, or "honey pegs".  They will be mounted with two pins and three holes. The first pin will be a fixed pivot, and the second a quick release pin to position the rear sets for me, or a honey.

The main rear brake pedal assembly will be with the rear sets, and a cable will allow the front set brake lever to work the rear master cylinder. When the rear sets are in the "honey position", they will be rotated up away from the brake pedal, keeping her from inadvertently locking up the rear tire. The whole thing should be pretty benign, and only apparent if you happen to notice that there are two brake pedals. I think I can route the cable under the frame and swingarm.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's hard to compare a sketch and a CAD but I prefer the look of the sketch, but I can live with the CAD so far. I'd like to see a rear tire proportion closer to the sketch, which looks wider and lower profile.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It's hard to compare a sketch and a CAD but I prefer the look of the sketch, but I can live with the CAD so far. I'd like to see a rear tire proportion closer to the sketch, which looks wider and lower profile.


Thanks, it's starting to grow on me now. Its technical merits are very convincing.





JRP3 said:


> ...I'd like to see a rear tire proportion closer to the sketch, which looks wider and lower profile.


Me too, but I have a brand new 160 tire on the bike that's costing me nothing to keep!  Maybe someday. A 180 or 190 would look nice back there, if I can get one in the swingarm, with a little _massaging_.

It should look a little more balanced when I fix the front tire - it's on a 4.25" rim, like the back. When I created the front wheel I used the curves from the back wheel and just altered the tire. I didn't catch it until after I posted these renderings, and noticed how fat the front rim looks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love the evolutionary process of design. First a sketch, then a translation into CAD that led to the realization that the sketch was significantly off, and an exaggerated rendition of the original concept, then an idea to restore some lost functionality (girder front end), then the realization that that idea could also apply to the original front suspension design (rocker arm would work at 30-degress), then the realization that I could tweak the arrangement of the components to recapture all of the original goals...

Follow me?!  Maybe this will help:









When I translated the sketch to CAD I kept everything at the height (from the ground) that it was on paper. That created the radical dragbike, with severely limited functionality. In the process of trying to restore that function, I ended up with the rocker arm assembly rotated far enough forward to raise everything, and there she was! 

The rake is cut down to a very sporty 25-degrees, and the wheelbase is chopped from nearly 60" to the low 50s - I forget what it was. 

Just to illuminate why I stumbled over the first rendition - the rear tire and tank on this version are only 26" tall (hold your hand at 26"), and the seat is 20" high! The other version was a LOT lower - like knee height!  This is still solidly dragbike in proportions, but it has sportbike type function designed in, so it will be more fun to ride.

I'm going to sleep.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

That looks great Todd! Reminds me of a café racer, but stretched.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> That looks great Todd! Reminds me of a café racer, but stretched.


Thanks Malcolm!  Café, or "naked bike", was the inspiration. The funny thing is it looks stretched but it's actually very short - the wheelbase is about 53-1/2"! The look is because I, purposely, shoved everything right up against the front wheel - possible because of the rocker arm suspension. Notice the tank shell is even down over the front tire a bit. I wanted that low, tucked-in, look of a serious road racer, minus the plastic panels.

Another fringe benefit of this latest iteration is the bike will fit in the back seat of my car in two sections. I have an idea for a track system that will grab the bike at the swingarm pivot, once the rear wheel and suspension are removed, and allow me to simply walk it into the back seat. I probably won't need the dual peg system anymore, but the idea for the pivoting rear pegs will work perfectly on the clip-ons, to allow me to quickly tuck the bars in to load/unload it. Evolution is a beautiful thing. 

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> ...and I like the square battery boxes – they make me think of saddlebags. You could even go the whole hog (pun intended) and cover them with riveted leather ...





toddshotrods said:


> ...One version of the boxes does have a lot of rivets, but I had not yet considered leather!  I guess it would match Schism's leather "luggage bags" though. ...


This actually might be a good idea!  With the 1.x versions, the aluminum box was needed to add more metal to balance the carbon fiber body. With 2.x's bold aluminum frame, motor, suspension, etc, a little leather for contrast actually looks nice, works well with the embossed seat; and would, as mentioned also tie into Schism's leather seats and faux luggage bags. I'll share after I get some more detail in the idea. It looks like it will work perfectly with the riveted trim idea I had in mind...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What about putting some curve in the swing arm, pull it down in the middle a bit? Sort of the opposite of the top of the tank curve, giving a flowing "S" shape to the bike. Might not be what you're after.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What about putting some curve in the swing arm, pull it down in the middle a bit? Sort of the opposite of the top of the tank curve, giving a flowing "S" shape to the bike. Might not be what you're after.


Normally I would, but I don't want to cut up or recreate the factory swingarm _at least for now_. That's the Ninja arm - all aluminum, pretty lightweight, and works perfectly - so I would be recreating the wheel solely for aesthetic purposes. Not something I am opposed to, _but_ for the sake of practicality (which I am, surprisingly, also capable of)... 

Nice idea though - I _dig_ the lines man.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With all the hubbub over my newest "venture", PackRat, I thought I should post what it means for Scrape. Not a lot really. Right now, Scrape works, albeit marginally - but it is functional, and does add a _lot_ to my marketing efforts. I can still increase that function with four more of these little scooter batteries, or four wheelchair batteries in a slightly larger box. I'll probably start with the four extra scooter batteries just to see what it does, and plan to move up from there.

A part of the decision to go forward with the PackRat project was due to exploring the idea of Scrape 2.0 - it's a lot to pull the trigger on, and I need to really think it through. Even though I would be building the new chassis on the side, and mostly swapping everything over when it's ready, just building that frame is a serious investment of time and money. It's also one that I really need to be sure about before I pull the trigger because once that expensive hunk of metal has been cut - it is what it is.

As mentioned, the bike is here and works now, so there's nothing lost by taking time to think first. I have been working on the CAD model more, and will share that soon. So far, just minor revisions to accommodate actual machining processes, which is what made me lightly apply the brakes. I think I'm getting _old_ or something. 

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love rocker arm front suspension on motorcycles, and even though I've finally established an aesthetic flow for Scrape, I want this project to be more of an engineering and technology oriented journey. While I was tweaking the frame, in preparation for cutting a wooden mock-up version, I noticed something I really didn't like. With 35-45 degrees of rake, the rocker arm travel motion looks reasonable. Cranked all the way up to 25-degrees, bumps would tend to counteract the natural motion of the assembly. It rotates forward and up. The more radical the rake, the more it's in position to swing up, rather freely. At 25-degrees, the bump will push it backward first, until the force is sufficient to overcome this, and then I imagine all that force unloading into the travel. If memory serves me, a lot of rocker arm front suspensions use quite a bit of rake, and sometimes a curved arm that would absorb some of this energy a little more benignly. At least that's how I see it.

The more I looked at it, the more I realized why forks are kind of hard to beat. Simple, cheap, unsophisticated, proven. On that note, I thought about it and realized that I think I can actually shorten my forks that much - to have the top triple clamp a little lower than the tank. The same abbreviated neck I was going to use with the rocker arm suspension, with custom U-shaped triple clamps that reach down into the wheel area. I think I can do this and maintain enough rigidity because of the short overall length and featherweight bike they're supporting - I think.








You can see the extra cutout on the frame to allow for wheel travel, with the telescopic fork front suspension. The highlighted (yellow) curve in the side view shows the bike at two inches of bump - sort of. I just pulled it straight down the center line of the forks, not proactively determining and setting the rear suspension travel, or angle of the frame from the swingarm pivot.

I also increased the section width of the frame from 1.5" to 2", because I hogged out more material to clear the front tire. One thing I would have to verify, beyond a shadow of doubt is the controller size, because that opening is getting pretty tight.


This rendering also has the leather covered battery boxes. They would have some metal trim, not just flat, plain, leather. This is not a definite plan, just exploring options.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Before starting on this easily packable plan, my thoughts on being able to transport Scrape were to either have a small trailer to pull behind my car, or one of those motorcycle wheel dollies on a hitch - that is my second favorite.

I watched this little video and realized another benefit with that plan, with the right motor/controller - you could charge the battery as you drive! What a way to travel and see the world! Tug the EV bike around behind your dino burner and when you see something that _must_ be explored openly, drop the bike on the ground and ride until you're halfway through the range, go back, and start charging again - all the while, never being tethered to a receptacle! 

In Scrape's case, I would also be able to stuff it inside the car for times when leaving it hanging off the back of the car might not be wise. And, I could pack it in its travel cases and arrange for Woody to have a car ready for me, with wheel dolly, and continue the journey on the other side of the pond!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love this new 2.x design philosophy for Scrape. It fits the original intent of the bike, and makes the concept work and spring to life. One thing I do not like is the traditional subtractive manufacturing process of whittling a big hunk of billet aluminum down to the desired part.

Wait - I actually _*LOVE*_ that process - it's just not _right_ for Scrape! I had to clear that up! 

The problems with machining Scrape's frame like that are it's expensive, dictates that I spend countless hours in CAD to make sure I get it right, isn't easily modified afterward, and is the least "green" way to produce it (huge input of materials and energy for such a small final product).

So, this morning, while simultaneously bouncing through design issues for all three of my current projects, I realized that I can build a fabricated frame that would be lighter, more easily modified, and much more responsible in terms of resources used (I think). Right now, I'm thinking about all 11 gauge aluminum sheet metal. Obviously two side plates, hammerformed perimeter "caps", and a collection of internal crossmembers. Everywhere there is an internal crossmember, there would be corresponding slots in the side plates, so that when it's assembled all the crossmembers would be welded, along with the perimeter caps, creating sort of a space frame version of the new frame.

So the materials cost of producing the frame goes from a $200-500 (depending on thickness) chunk of billet, to a ~$75 half sheet of 11ga 6061, plus TIG filler rod and gas. The machine time would be much more reasonable, because even the ShopBot can cut 11ga, pretty quickly. If I force myself out of Rhino and into Pro/E for the frame design, it will also support FEA testing to find the most rigid design possible.

Finally, this thing would have to be incredibly light. I figured the billet version was going to be around 25lbs, just taking into account the weight of the original billet piece, and a guesstimate of how much material I expected to remove. This would probably be half of that, or less... 

Thoughts, comments...?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, I obviously backed off a bit on the Scrape 2.x plans. There are a few reasons.


I actually have a functional bike now and, before I do anything that would compromise that, I want to have another functional vehicle. That will most likely be PackRat, hopefully sometime this summer. That gives me time to really think this through.
I would like to improve the current functionality first, for events we have planned this summer, which probably means the medium-size box with the AGM batteries, etc. That will allow me to start logging miles instead of yards, and have a better idea how I will actually use Scrape.
I love the idea of designing and building an aluminum frame, and seeing how light I can make this bike, but I am not sure I want to go as low as the CAD renderings are - I guess this musclebike thing grew on me more than I thought. I will probably experiment with designing a frame that works with the existing body/profile, and compare that to the H1-E concept...


More to come, though much more incrementally; at least for a while.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_Journal Entry:_
Just giving this a little bump, as I am planning to get back to work on it soon. I _think_ I am moving Scrape to the top of the heap - to become my design flagship. I have been up to my neck in long-term career planning, and Scrape (or some type of e-bike) just fits my plans better.

I also have an addiction to performance, that I haven't decided whether I am going to pursue any further. I'm probably competitive on an unhealthy level, which is why I haven't allowed myself to do more than design and plan for it, for the last decade - but - performance also sells, and is a nice validation of good design and engineering, so I have never been able to completely eliminate it from my plans.

I _might_, repeat *might*, pursue my performance goals with Scrape. It really is a perfect platform for it, being based on Ninja wheels, suspension, and brakes. It is also a featherweight, making extreme performance a relatively easy and very attractive proposition. I stopped racing motorcycles because I was certain I was going to kill myself on one, eventually. Back then, I had a bed-ridden mother, then an aging father, too stick around for. That cautious, think of others first, mentality became a way of life, that I didn't really realize I was still following. Maybe it's time to get back on the (race) horse. 

I did some research and there have, indeed, been more than a few successful 200+mph naked bike top speed runs; making one of my all-time personal goals (to _taste_ 200+) a real possibility with Scrape. There's also the Lightning bike, as proof that an e-bike can get there.


http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=156135.0
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/N...-news/2010/April/Suzuki-B-King-breaks-200mph/
etc...
Plus, if I killed myself at 200+ it would be one heckuvan ending to my saga! 




I also didn't realize that it was possible to drift a motorcycle, making the possibility of demonstrating its capabilities feasible in venues other than drag strips, air strips, and slat flats. It's also even more spectacular than a fast car weaving through autocross cones. I think I will probably end up hiring a 20-something rider for this though, as my half-century-old bones may not be up to conquering the learning curve. Death, is a risk I have almost always been willing to take. Hobbling around, with limited mobility, not so much - length of life is always an unknown, so quality of life means everything. I'm already beginning to pay the price for some of the stupid $#!+ I did over the last four decades.












So, everything is still a bit tentative, as I continue to sort it out, but logic seems to say this is the way to go. The catalyst that led me in this direction is an invitation to move to New York City. My current interests, and operation, would be very expensive to maintain there, but I could continue to develop Scrape in a tiny office space. That made me realize how far off the intended path I have strayed. I also get the most bang for my buck (time and money) with motorcycle design projects. Even with PackRat, which provides a much better return than Schism, it takes significantly more effort than a motorcycle to make a design statement; in a specific area/component, or over the entire vehicle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My biggest hurdle with Scrape is the drive system. Honestly, frustration with trying to find what I really want in a motor and controller is what caused me to back away for a bit. I never gave up the search, never backed down on my hopes, but I had to walk away for a bit.

DC is easy and fun. The technology is known, though a bit unsophisticated, and the companies that produce the components share pretty openly and seem to offer great support. I want AC on Scrape, for a variety of reasons, but I don't like dealing with the people that produce the AC components. I don't know whether they're overly secretive to protect their IP, just kind of snobbish because they have _superior_ technology, or likely a combination of the two, but they're incredibly frustrating to have even a basic conversation with. I've noticed that even here on the forum, the level of support between companies like Evnetics and some AC-related suppliers is like night and day.

Rant over. I almost posted my frustration in a specific thread, but decided to air it out in my own and continue my search...  I can easily run a Mars PM motor with a variety of controllers to get it moving better. Finding a long-term AC solution is, at a minimum, much more challenging. I see why companies like Tesla and Rimac say screw it and roll their own.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

HPEVS has been very helpful to most customers as far as I'm aware. The big drawback is low powered inverters which don't allow a great power to weight ratio, and air cooled instead of liquid cooled motors.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> HPEVS has been very helpful to most customers as far as I'm aware. The big drawback is low powered inverters which don't allow a great power to weight ratio, and air cooled instead of liquid cooled motors.


Maybe to customers that have already spent money on regular production items; just don't ask too many questions or for something different. 

My fav EV company, Evnetics, have always been willing to answer all of my annoying questions and even put their minds towards considering my extreme needs - remember I was arguably part and parcel of the whole push to build Big Sol/Shiva, and they entertained my wildest fantasies, and replied earnestly. I just can't ever seem to physically fit one of their controllers in my projects.  I always try to ask questions that can benefit others though, and try to do things that will be of some benefit to the greater community.

On the Evnetic/Shiva subject: The Inhaler belongs to the Columbus Idea Foundry now, and I am pushing for them to put a Shiva in it to match the big 13" GE (for aesthetics, even if they don't need the power). They're eventually going to do a Kickstarter to make it fully functional (controller, motor rebuild, batteries, etc). They just move in a different time/space continuum, so I have no idea when that will actually happen.

I should also mention that EVO was pretty forthcoming, and supportive. They answered more than a few of my typical _Todd_ questions. The price was just on the extreme end of the spectrum (we actually did have a plan to purchase them though), and Rinehart never posted or emailed with any information on the availability of the big inverters - that killed that whole idea because what the heck would we do with $30-40K worth of motors and no inverters to match them (at the power levels I wanted). Rinehart mentioned something about being able to pu$h the production up if we really needed them - hmmm, ten$ of thousand$ of dollar$ for product$ that I am getting marginal information on, with no additional proof that they'll deliver on the promi$e - pa$$! 

Such has been my history with AC suppliers.

DC? Evnetics, Jim, George (Netgains), Berube, and others have provided full details, superb customer service (even though I was only a potential one), even when they thought their products wouldn't meet my needs. I received more than a few emails, that started with something to the effect of, _this probably won't work for your application because_... - then went on to provide a wealth of information on what the product was capable of, and why it probably wasn't going to meet my needs. It made me wish I could purchase _something_ from them, just to say thanks. Maybe someday I will.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little chicken scratching to get back to the Scrape 2.x concept. I love the basic idea of 2.x, with the spine frame, and packable design, but it was too low, too much of a dragbike, and too focused on reliving the former _glory_ of my first street bike. This is about the future, and fresh thinking. This musclebike theme has really grown on me, so I combined the two.











This also delves deeper into something I have been toying with - my own motor design. Initially, it can just be a custom CAD/CNC, billet aluminum, _Todd,_ case for some preexisting, commercially available, motor's internal goods. Ideally it would contain either a Remy or something totally proprietary/open source. I need to really think that through to get the basic size and configuration right, so that there is plenty of room to grow - input welcome. In any case, the motor frame would bolt directly to the bike frame, becoming a structural member, and aesthetic puzzle piece. When fully developed, I will be loosely chasing a mechanical, geared, type aesthetic with the complete assembly.



Similarly, the battery box halves would bolt into the frame, serving both aforementioned needs. This is the medium-sized box, that will allow me to fit four AGMs now, 60 Headways, 24 LiFePO4s, or 204 LiPos. I can actually have them all setup simultaneously and swap for research purposes. With the current Turnigy Nano-Techs, that's a potential 400hp in the box!  



The controller fits in the third "port", and is as yet undetermined; but preferably open source.



The dotted line is the current Italian/American-styled body. I decided I want to keep it, and I want to keep the plan to develop the integrated stereo system - subwoofer in the rear "hump".



The frame would be designed to accept the current 900 Ninja rear swingarm and suspension, unchanged. Up front, I am probably moving to a girder style front suspension, based on the current ZX6 sliders and brakes, to facilitate the easy breakdown and packing of the front end, with fully adjustable geometry.



The biggest challenge is going to be forcing myself into parametric modeling to develop a serious CAD model that can be subjected to FEA, to develop a torsionally rigid frame. I don't plan to do any serious (competitive) road racing, so the main emphasis is on straight-line stability, but it's a tall, narrow, design with holes. The motor and battery box will fix those, but it will be a challenge. My first thoughts are carbon fiber, which means I need a development partner with experience and an autoclave...



 Ultimately, I want carbon fiber wheels and carbon brakes, to help get to the ~200lb goal, and ultimate tech toy persona.



This plan puts me squarely on track to my ~200lbs goal, and the ability to stuff it in the back seat, fit in it a tiny urban office space, and transport it virtually anywhere in a set of custom "fitted" luggage; carbon fiber, of course.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow Todd you have some serious design aspirations. 

What motor performance are you looking for? I am thinking about this myself for a bike conversion. Would be good to see how our goals compare.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow Todd you have some serious design aspirations...


Always, but I also always have a foot in reality. Notice I said initially it can be a custom case, with some preexisting guts? That's allowing for the reality and difficulty of motor design, and trying to get people to work together.

One thought I have on this is seeing if I can come up with funding (grants or crowdfunding) to develop an open source motor and inverter design. To simplify things the motor could be as simple as picking an appropriate industrial motor, rewinding it fifty times until it works, and then reverse engineering everything to CAD, and making the files available to everyone. Maybe using some of the money to have some of the components produced in an initial limited run and selling them as cheaply as possible. The problem is getting the people with the technical capability to really make it happen on the same page. I have my doubts about that. I see them post all over the place on the internet - some absolutely brilliant - but there is not a lot of collaboration in this arena. Most are content to do their own thing, and release limited details. I'm talking about individuals not companies. Coming from ICE, I find it strange because hotrodders and racers I am used to dealing with share so much, and go so far out of their way to help each other. Not so much in the DIY EV world. 

The inverter could be as simple as throwing some bucks and support Paul's way to get the Open Revolt AC inverter off the ground, for a start. That would let it begin to snowball into more versions.





tylerwatts said:


> ...What motor performance are you looking for? I am thinking about this myself for a bike conversion. Would be good to see how our goals compare.


Lol, if you give me my choice, I would have a 200hp motor! I thought that was insane for the size/form until reading Ripperton's most recent dyno numbers. Now, I'm salivating.

Realistically, I am really trying to explore and see what's possible. I don't have a set number I must have - I'm seeing what's out there...

What are your plans?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Well these are early stages, but I want to basically have a modular design of an Axial Flux ACPM motor. This would be a minimum 1 stator, 2 rotor design. This would then open up possibility of 'stacking' modules of one more rotor than stator and having essentially a double width rotor when sandwiched. That would balance the proportion of magnetic force each rotor is getting from the stators.

Additionally stacking means you can offset the timing of each 1-2 stator to rotor group to reduce the already low cogging judder and low torque on start up which can be suffered. 

On top of this I was thinking to use hollow wiring (thin bore brake pipe insulated) that would allow me to cool the stators using an AirCon setup and also use clever air flow for magnet cooling though they should be designed with a high tolerance to heat. 

One difference with bikes vs cars is that ideally you want a single reduction of not more than 3:1 really so a higher torque lower speed motor is best. That just means winding differently. It also helps by requiring a lower voltage pack so say an RC 'nanotech' type pack would be great for weight, space, and high C rate with a modest range and GOOD performance.

I'm a bit like you though in that I design and idea generate way faster than I can build or implement/prove so have ideas and plans and designs all over the show but struggle to bring them to life. 

One think I found very interesting was Crodriver's Rimac AC motor design, PM and internally oil cooled with a heat exchanger to liquid cooling. So the motor is a totally sealed and self-lubricating unit. Brilliant. This lends itself to charge cooling again, though in this instance I'd use a small AirCon system to cool the internal oil. Certainly a good option to consider. I suspect also that his motors are axial Flux to give such excellent torque in that packaging and still run high rpm and wide torque power band to give huge power! 

You could certainly fit one of those motors into a bike frame on their own. Just need a BIG pack to fuel that beast! Or only hVe a short run time. Again RC favors here for rapid charge times! 

Anyway I'll go on all night if I don't stop now. Great to see Scrape continuing. Chat soon sir!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Maybe, just maybe, there's a little light at the end of the tunnel for my custom-cased motor plan - http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/highlander-hybrid-and-prius-motors-86829p3.html

I was planning on an induction motor, but don't really have a problem with a PM motor, so we'll see how this plays out. I want to start working on the frame and motor case design, but need something to work off as I can see wasting too much time in Pro/E chasing dead ends (motor sizes and designs that won't actually work). In my head, I have a plan and know where I want to go; just need some base numbers...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, I've had the same thought to rehouse a Toyota motor. I'll follow your progress keenly. Also looking at fitting into an AC24LS housing to run through AT1200 transaxle. I'll post when I have some progress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, I've had the same thought to rehouse a Toyota motor. I'll follow your progress keenly. Also looking at fitting into an AC24LS housing to run through AT1200 transaxle. I'll post when I have some progress.


I know it kind of blows the "cheap" thing out of the water, but it seems as if Rinehart's PM100DZ would be an excellent match for that motor. Even though the inverter would be $6K, it's actually being paired to a very expensive motor, that's only available cheaply because of recycling. I think a comparable EVO motor would be around $15K, so even with my over-the-top CAD/CNC case I would be at far less than half the price. I would also bet that the Toyota motor has far more R&D behind it to ensure legendary Toyota quality and dependability, so this seems like a sweetheart deal, for a seriously high-end package, IMO...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with your logic. And the choice of Toyota motors makes it even sweeter! I think also from the research already done that with some clever cooling mods/design you could push alot more power through these motors for short bursts also, so even a modest 20kW MG2 out the Prius could probably give up to 30s of 50kW output and alot of torque too. Guessing the figures but not far off. 

My main appeal to this is the extra torque from the IPM design which in two wheeled fixed ratio use is just the ticket!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...with some clever cooling mods/design you could push alot more power through these motors for short bursts...


I'm seriously considering using a dielectric fluid like Flourinert. I need to find out whether it's okay to use in the Rinehart inverter, so I can have one closed cooling system to do motor, inverter, and batteries. It's expensive, but since this is a motorcycle I wouldn't need so much of it.






tylerwatts said:


> ...My main appeal to this is the extra torque from the IPM design which in two wheeled fixed ratio use is just the ticket!


Yup.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Dielectric fluid sounds interesting. I'm thinking along the lines of an air conditioning cooling system. Must work out which is best for efficiency, but I'm keen to try running the condensor through fine copper pipe through critical portions of the motor and also use clever air flow over the piping and on through the motor to cool critical regions. 

I suspect the Toyota motors have the optimum cooling paths already so maybe steal Crodriver's heat exchanger design with either ac or liquid cooling and sealed oil cooling within the motor. What do you think Todd?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I've been thinking about motor specs and ideal matches of Toyota motors for motorcycle and other applications. My logic goes like this:

Set top speed target - 100mph
Power band must provide peak power through to this speed.
Transmission type and reduction - chain or belt offer better ratios around 4-5 to 1. Shaft is cleaner, stronger, more aesthetic but if recycling BMW or Japan parts about 3 to 1 is best available. 
Wheel spec - standard 17in motorcycle at approx 1600mm circumference which is 1 thousandth of a mile. 

So motor must attain slightly less than 5000rpm at 100mph in shaft drive and approx 6500-8000rpm in chain/belt drive.
Motor must achieve peak power between 3-5krpm shaft and 4-6.5/5-8krpm in chaim/belt drive. This is flat power delivery for this peak rating across those rpm. Not continuous. 
Motor should reasonably maintain 80mph continuously at continuous output of approx 20kW.
Torque is acceleration, and the wider the band of peak torque the better. Transmission ratio improves torque at wheel, ergo chain might be better. But chain/belt may be too high rpm for available Toyota motors... 

Not having read the papers thoroughly I am not sure what the Camry motor specs are but provided the rpm ranges are met a bigger motor is always better... it seems then that MG2 is the ideal donor for a bike. 

On a side note the highlander unit is designed for 150mph operation which is too high. I happen to want 12000rpm motor with 10 to 1 ratio for my SUV conversion which gives approx 100mph Max and better mechanical torque increase from the same motor, so I am thinking to rehouse this motor with an AT1200 transmission for a hybrid conversion I my Rav4. But let's work together on the bike design as we share that desire. 

I will try to read those papers thoroughly and especially the Camry specs, but let me know what you think in the mean time. 

I was thinking for a housing for the motor what Ripperton has done is ideal, a tube/sleeve with two end plates that incorporate mounting and cooling seem most efficient use of space and flexibility.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd I've been thinking about motor specs and ideal matches of Toyota motors for motorcycle and other applications. My logic goes like this:
> 
> Set top speed target - 100mph...


For a "normal" bike that's practical - won't cut it for me, now that I have moved my performance goals to Scrape...





tylerwatts said:


> ...the highlander unit is designed for 150mph operation which is too high...


Now you're getting closer to what caught my attention with the Highlander thread. I am specifically planning to use the MGR motor, for that exact reason...






tylerwatts said:


> ...Power band must provide peak power through to this speed.
> Transmission type and reduction - chain or belt offer better ratios around 4-5 to 1. Shaft is cleaner, stronger, more aesthetic but if recycling BMW or Japan parts about 3 to 1 is best available.
> Wheel spec - standard 17in motorcycle at approx 1600mm circumference which is 1 thousandth of a mile.
> 
> ...


I plan to use a simple chain drive, for ultimate tune-ability, and reliability (when handling high power/high stress applications). That gives me a tuning range of 3:1 (far beyond my desired top-end at 12K) all the way out to 6:1. If I need to reduce that further, I will use a jackshaft between the motor and rear wheel. That would simply be a custom swingarm with the jackshaft incorporated into it, so I can switch between the two setups without altering the rest of the bike.

My solution to the torque issue is weight, or a serious lack thereof. I weigh 125lbs, dripping wet. Scrape will be less than 200lbs, I think. I can move from a standing stop, reasonably well, with a tiny PM motor and 48 volts of weak scooter AGMs. With the MGR rated for ~100lbs-ft, I _think_ it will fly! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...I was thinking for a housing for the motor what Ripperton has done is ideal, a tube/sleeve with two end plates that incorporate mounting and cooling seem most efficient use of space and flexibility.


I'm going to do a full CAD/CNC enclosure, that will be cut from 2-4 chunks of billet aluminum. I think that I can create a bunch of less sophisticated/expensive models from that same process for others to adapt the motors to their needs. It seems as if the basic motors are similar enough in design that changing a few specs to accommodate MG1, MG2, MGR, etc, shouldn't be too much of an issue. Backing that design down to just the end plates should be possible.

Mine will look like it came from an alien spacecraft!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I was worried this would be your response sir! What range are you after? Are you still planning to keep Scrape's Kawasaki chassis? At those speed's I'd recommend improved specs, bit I vaguely remember you mentioned a new donor. 

If range is no worry, low weight is your friend! But remember aero plays more part at speed so a naked is no good. And high c rating for acceleration/bursts of 30s only. 350lbs with peak 50kW would perform well, but not bike speed like you're used to.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Are you still planning to keep Scrape's Kawasaki chassis? At those speed's I'd recommend improved specs, bit I vaguely remember you mentioned a new donor...


I am in the process of designing a new frame - it will be completely original; either CAD/CNC billet aluminum and/or autoclaved carbon fiber - no donor.






tylerwatts said:


> I was worried this would be your response sir! What range are you after?...
> ...remember aero plays more part at speed so a naked is no good...


200+ (That's a personal goal, placed on Scrape's back recently.)  And, no worries with the aero:


http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/N...-news/2010/April/Suzuki-B-King-breaks-200mph/
http://www.jdscycle.com/i_set_a_204_mph_land_speed_recor.htm
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/12/confederate-x132-hellcat/












tylerwatts said:


> ...And high c rating for acceleration/bursts of 30s only. 350lbs with peak 50kW would perform well, but not bike speed like you're used to.



I like how you bumped the weight up. I said 125 (me) + <200 (bike) 
Even at your numbers, that's a 5:1 weight-to-power ratio - not record-setting, but not exactly slow either. True though, not enough for me.
I want much more than 50kw. If after grenading a couple single MGRs in search of the numbers I want, I don't succeed, I will look at dual motors, locked on a single shaft, with dual inverters. I would like to try for it the least complicated way first.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One other thing about this project - it's probably going to take a bit to "get there". None of my current resources are up to snuff to produce anything I need for Scrape 2.x. I can prototype some parts with reasonable accuracy but, other than that, I can't realize any of my advanced design and engineering concepts right now.

That's kind of the point though - this is supposed to stretch things beyond this mid-grade point I have been stuck in. I came to Columbus to do advanced projects, but have been stuck in the same stuff I've been doing for the last three decades. This project represents my concerted effort to change that.

When I finally make the decision and purchase a motor, I will likely start prototyping the new frame and drivetrain stuff, and eventually have a running prototype of the 2.x bike - but realizing it, for real road use, and speed _feats_, will require new partnerships, and likely a move to a new city...

I will have turned the corner and I am soooo looking forward to that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, while the guys are picking at the technical specifications of the Toyota/Lexus hybrid motors, I am mentally stewing on the physical design and layout of Scrape 2.x, powered by one of them. The Highlander's stator is approximately 9.25" diameter, without the three (external) mounting tabs, which gives me an idea of the overall diameter of the motor. With performance goals in mind, I bypassed all other options and looked to the Turnigy Nano-Tech LiPo cells to provide the "juice". Finally, I am designing around a Rinehart PM150DZ, to make sure there's room for what seems to be the ultimate combination. Even if I have to start with a cobbled, home-brewed, inverter; it should be similar, or smaller, in size.









Here have we 176 of the Nano-Techs, for 651.2 volts, and and easy 390 amps (at the more _conservative_ 65c max rating). Since I have a passion for sacrificing things to the speed gods, I am pretty certain I can fit 19 more cells, and bump up to the PM150DZ's 720 volt ceiling. Also, I moved up to the PM150, over the little 100, to see how much current it takes to totally fry the stator.  My guess is the little Toyota motor could handle both, more volts and amps, for brief periods. I would help by trying to maximize the potential to shred heat, with flowing Flourinert. I can model the internals easily, and try to use CFD software to find a good plan. The "motor" here is just a generic, over-sized, rounded-off, disc. It's 11" in diameter, but 6" wide. Once I get really accurate measurements and get going in CAD, I can find the minimum external size for what's needed inside.

By the way, that's a ~4kw pack - not bad. I would even have a little range for playing around on the street.Also, I wouldn't be as concerned about cycle life because the cells are ~$5K; as compared to 5-6 times that amount for a car.

As it is, this would fit. It's a touch longer than current system, and approximately the same width and height. I have enough room between the front tire and battery box now to clear this, but will be able to trim some off when the motor is the correct size; plus, I could always push the swingarm and rear wheel back an inch, if necessary.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm a little concerned about controlling one of these motors now. Apparently, IPM is different enough from BLDC/PMAC and induction that it may not be as simple as wiring up a standard inverter and using the autotune feature. I am completely comfortable, of course, with the challenge of developing a new housing, and adapting the motor physically to Scrape, but developing an inverter from scratch (or even hacking a factory one) is far outside of my scope. I actually think I could learn it, but I don't want to...

I also think the needs of the average DIY'er adapting one of these motors to a road-going conversion is going to be much different than my needs for racing/performance, thus my desire to purchase a suitable inverter.

I emailed Rinerhart support. They've been really supportive in the past - hopefully I haven't worn out my welcome!  If the Rinehart can be paired to the Toyota motors, this could be golden. If not, the search may still be on for a suitable motor...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The second paragraph in the PDF from Rinehart is encouraging :


> RMS offers several different models within the PM Family of motor controllers to suit the DC bus voltage and motor current requirements of your specific vehicle. *The PM Family has been designed to operate with many types of motors, including Induction Motors (IM) and Permanent Magnet motors (PMSM or IPM)*. Contact RMS for the latest list of motors supported by our controllers. The Drive can also be tuned to your new motor - contact the factory for more information.


Also:


> To go faster, the motor has to enter “field weakening”, where the Drive adds current to defeat some of the permanent magnet field, so the motor output voltage is reduced and stays below the hard limit


I had also mentioned the need for that with the Toyota IPM motor's 12K potential, in my inquiry.

We'll see what they say, if I get a specific reply on the Toyota motors. I am encouraged though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I received a reply from Rinehart, with some interesting information. Their drives do not have an autotuning feature - they have to be factory programmed to work with a particular motor. Their drives will work with resolvers, and they should be able to set one up to work with the Toyota IPM motor. It would require a couple weeks of dyno time to build a 2D table of its operating points - at my expense.

Then, he recommended I check out the offerings at EVDrive. They are basically Remy motors in custom housings, paired with Rinehart drives. The EVD150HV-Rcr-90s-602-720vdc matched motor & 150kW RMS Inverter/controller package ( a little past halfway down the page) is exactly what I want. At $18,870, it's more than I hoped to spend in one chunk but, realistically, what it would end up costing anyway. And, it brings this to the table: 


Power: 107HP/80kW cont., *200-240HP/150-180kW peak* @ 8,500-10,000 RPM, voltage dependent - 250Arms cont.
Torque: 158 ft-lbs cont., *236 ft-lbs. peak *@ 602-720 pack voltage
 
My dilemma is then I feel like I am just spending $25K (with a small LiPo pack, etc) to go fast. It's impressive but doesn't feel motivating and inspirational like starting from closer to ground zero and ending up with a rocket ship on two wheels. I'm also not clear what I would be selling with this verison of Scrape? My ability to shop wisely and look fantastic when I come out of the "fitting room"? 

Lots to think about...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Have you looked at the Emrax motors Todd?
http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/emrax-motors.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> Have you looked at the Emrax motors Todd?
> http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/emrax-motors.html


I think I briefly glanced in their direction before. The problem is they only turn 4-5k rpm. I really want a motor that can turn 8-10K. Combined with Scrape's light overall weight (and mine), I can take advantage of needing less torque to accelerate quickly and have the top end to really fly - without a transmission. I want one speed, direct drive, rocket ship like, tractor beam, acceleration...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I want one speed, direct drive, rocket ship like, tractor beam, acceleration...


With peak torque of 240 Nm and peak power of 100 kW in a motor weighing less than 12 kg, who cares if it only spins up to 4000 rpm?

But – I just realised the Emrax motor is probably not a good choice for a motorcycle. It's an outrunner, so the shaft is fixed and the casing rotates. The gyroscope effect could be a problem. It also requires serious cooling.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> With peak torque of 240 Nm and peak power of 100 kW in a motor weighing less than 12 kg, who cares if it only spins up to 4000 rpm...


Me!  10K or bust. 






MalcolmB said:


> ...But – I just realised the Emrax motor is probably not a good choice for a motorcycle. It's an outrunner, so the shaft is fixed and the casing rotates. The gyroscope effect could be a problem. It also requires serious cooling.


Yeah, I don't want a hub motor, or to try to adapt an outrunner to work like a conventional motor. The plan is for Scrape to be liquid cooled though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After more discussion with the rep from Rinehart, it's pretty clear that the EVDrive package is actually the cheaper option. Even at the lower end of the anticipated development costs for programming a Rinehart drive to go with my custom motor (based on the Highlander IPM _core_), when combined with my own CAD/CNC development time and cost for the custom housing - the price of the EVDrive package is probably a steal.

I have ideas for funding the purchase of that package, building a battery pack, etc. What I have to do is figure out exactly what I'm "selling" with this setup. From fundraising, to delivering on the promise, to capitalizing on the resulting opportunities, there has to be a point, a reason... In that case, I would be making use of existing technology more than _developing_ new technology - but to what end, for what ultimate purpose, _why_?

I'd appreciate any feedback, and will actually be proactively seeking it to work this out.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have no idea what you're selling, what your goal is, or what you'll actually end up building because this project has changed so much so many times, and probably will again


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I have no idea what you're selling, what your goal is, or what you'll actually end up building because...


Lol. I's going to sound like I don't, but I really appreciate the feedback, and have noted your perspective.





JRP3 said:


> ...this project has changed so much so many times, and probably will again


Not so. It seems like it has, because I love chasing ideas, exploring design opportunities. In reality, the original premise hasn't budged an inch. From the very first day of this thread:


toddshotrods said:


> ...I want to use it to experiment with ideas. It will be the Todd version of Woody's Tractor Project. Range, practicality, racing, etc, are secondary concerns - the prime directive here is fun and learning...





toddshotrods said:


> ...Of course maximum enjoyment, for me, means pure design - notice there's not exactly a lot of room for batteries?...




If one were to look back through this thread, you would find the actual bike has changed very little from the point I canned the ICE and decided to go electric. I have explored all conceivable options for motor, controller, and batteries, but the bike doesn't really change. Even the latest design experiments with Scrape 2.x keep leading me right back to page one, day one. In exploring those ideas, I learn a lot and have a blast, which was/is/will be the point for me...

I _have_ assigned performance goals to Scrape now, but only because I found that they enhance the basic concept not restrict it; like they did with Schism. In fact, as the performance goals play out, I think they will actually be a complement to fun and learning.

The question, about the selling point, is how I can use my exploits with Scrape to benefit others. So, again, on that note, your feedback has been duly noted, because I see something in it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Making the mission official: I just posted this sign on the studio (outside) wall, in preparation for this weekend. I will be interviewed with a local magazine tomorrow, we have a major philanthropic organization visiting tomorrow, and the Open House Sunday.









The web address and the Bat-T logo were photoshopped onto this pic. I have to cut a laser logo tonight, and there isn't going to be a web address on the sign.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That was fun! I just did the photo shoot and interview for the (local) 614 Magazine! We took Scrape out in the parking lot where he had me doing drive-bys at supersonic speeds - okay, maybe it was more like 5-10mph, but it was still a blast! I think I rode Scrape more than I ever have before, in one occasion. I can't wait to get a real powertrain in it, so I can ride off into the sunset - so much fun to ride...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There were a couple people taking cell phones pics and/or videos during the photo shoot. I have been trying to get something to post, but no luck so far. A Go-Pro is high on my list... I don't know if they don't have good pics or didn't see my Yahoo Group post requesting them, but no reply so far. I will try again at the Open House today. Half of my studio frontage is now plastered with three Scrape 200 on 2 signs.  The remaining "white space" around them will be filled with progress pics and information. I'll post some pics of the wall later, or tomorrow.

The reason I am shooting for 200mph is not to set records, that's been done. ( I would, of course, be tickled pink to set one though... ) It's to push things to the limits to learn and have fun - the point of this project. 200mph has been a personal goal for decades, that I've been repeatedly distracted from. It's time to cross it off my "bucket list". 

Here's the actual mission statement for this journey:

*the 200 on 2 mission*​

To inspire and encourage others to greatness in their own endeavors.
To develop and promote open source technology and solutions to common problems, that benefit and enable others.


*why 200mph?*​

The pursuit of 200+ mph, from a standing start, in one mile, requires solving a host of design and engineering challenges. While most people won't embark upon 200mph journeys, when shared openly, the technology required to safely get there and back, will make 100mph a cakewalk. It will help propel others to success, in automotive and non-automotive exploits.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The wall. I don't think the Open House drew quite the right audience for it but it's there, broadcasting my intentions 24/7. I'm slowly working out a plan to aggressively, proactively, set sail on this little journey. I need to develop an ongoing media strategy; get the website page better organized to track the journey; and develop a mid-range drivetrain plan to make Scrape more attractive in (video) action - all to set the stage for serious fundraising...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This EVD setup is pretty substantial. The motor is 11" in diameter, and 10" long (case). It also has a little box attached which I assume, from the description, is the pump for the cooling system? The overall length is listed at 12", which I also assume includes the terminals and output (which is a flange, not a shaft).

This model has the motor case size, with a guesstimate of what I assume is the cooling pump, the Rinehart PM150DZ inverter, and 198 Turnigy modules (732.6 volts - 6ah - 65-130c - 396 cells/198s/2p). A quick tape measure check says it will fit, no problem.









Edit: revised model and rendering and eliminated the need for the paragraphs that were here...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I revised the CAD model and renderings in the last post. As I thought about it, I realized that a jackshaft solves all my problems. It lets me center the motor, using it exactly as it is manufactured, and also allows me to tailor the drive ratio without having the typical garbage can-sized rear wheel sprocket. I've actually been here before (jackshaft), and it's just too nice of a solution to pass on. I still have to figure out where the primary chain would end up on the actual bike, but that's all easily configurable. I would want the actual jackshaft to be incorporated into the swingarm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What a 240hp Scrape would look like, _under the sheets_.









EVDrive EVD150HV-Rcr-90s motor (gray), Rinehart PM150DZ drive (red), Orion BMS (blue), and Turnigy Nano-Tech A-Spec pack (green). There's 383hp in the pack, at 65c, so the quest would eventually be on to push hp out to 300hp.

The 300lb weight goal will be a serious challenge. Even with carbon fiber wheels and carbon brake rotors, I'd need to go titanium everywhere possible - which I like. I want to machine and turn a lot of the fasteners, the axles, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm starting to work on a to-do list of small items to make Scrape roadworthy. Today, I removed the Whistler alarm system, and made the traditional key switch I have become comfortable with using a fixed part of the electrical system (it was hanging by its wiring up to this point). I did some testing with the Whistler alarm and determined that I like the key switch better. This isn't the final location for it, but it is at least solidly attached now (green arrow).


I also mounted the Whistler's siren in place of a traditional horn. That is also not a permanent solution, but for the time-being it gives me an EV answer to the "loud pipes saves lives" philosophy I used to live by. It is triggered by the horn button, and quite loud. I have only chirped it, so far, with very quick taps of the button - to keep my dog from going nuts, and to prevent having to explain it to curious community people who would certainly come to see what the fuss was. I can't wait to sneak up on someone and blast them! 









I think locomotive style air horns would be awesome for this...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. Looks good sir. May I ask why 300lbs and potentially 300bhp? The theoretic ideal for cracking 200mph is 1bhp/kg or 2.2lbs so you are trying to double this! Do you really need 300lbs limit? It seems a bit of leeway here would go to a much stronger or more cost effective and realistic design. Why are you holding to such a strict weight limit?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. Looks good sir....


Thanks Tyler. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...May I ask why 300lbs and potentially 300bhp? The theoretic ideal for cracking 200mph is 1bhp/kg or 2.2lbs so you are trying to double this! Do you really need 300lbs limit?...


For the design and engineering challenge. 200mph is a personal goal that I decided to drop in Scrape's lap because it fit with the overall vision for the bike. 200 is not hard to hit. I could buy a used 'busa, do some chassis mods, a power-adder, and be there for a fraction of what I'll spend developing Scrape. I could probably even just start going to the drapstrip and riding for people again, and land myself on a 200mph bike (on a standing-mile track) for _free_.

I started chasing 1:1 power-to-weight with the cars. It's possible with Schism or the Inhaler, but it just snowballs so far out of control, and ends with a vehicle that I really don't want. With a motorcycle, the changes are much less intrusive, and actually create the type of bike I like, so it's kind of a _match made in heaven_.

The 300lb goal is simply for the challenge. I like how it forces me to think and approach things. I like what the end result would be - a high-tech, refined, and clean, machine. Instead of stringing roll cage tubes, I will be designing titanium and aluminum parts, and wringing them out in FEA; then developing them on CNC machines.






tylerwatts said:


> ...It seems a bit of leeway here would go to a much stronger or more cost effective and realistic design. Why are you holding to such a strict weight limit?


Cost-effective, perhaps - depending on the metric you use to determine effectiveness. Remember 200mph is not really the ultimate goal, just a marker I pass on the journey.

Stronger, I doubt. The materials and processes I have to use to hit the 300lb target, are the strongest current technology can produce. Structural carbon fiber, titanium, forged and treated aluminum, etc. Take the brakes as an example. Looking to carbon brakes to shave a couple pounds, also brings the best brakes money can buy - that won't fade at the end of those 200mph runs. They're stronger, more effective.

Realistic, is subjective. What I am really seeking, in the end, is a bike that makes 200mph feel good. A bike that is almost intoxicating to ride, and really hard to behave on. My old street-legal dragbikes felt perfect at 130-140mph. They actually had more in them, but we weren't into top speed back then. That was the speed they felt comfortable _cruising_ at. Everything else felt like you were barely moving. We usually had around a dozen guys when we rode, and always told them _when_ we went to triple digits they didn't have to go, if they weren't comfortable. If not, just do the speed they liked, and we'd be somewhere down the road putting along, waiting for them, after we got it out of our systems.

My poor man's version of this. The sensations and impressions that come with the journey. Notice how, relatively, calm it is in the car for the speed at hand? Accomplishing that in a car is monumental, and would be an even greater challenge in an EV. On a bike, you get locked into your own bubble. The wind noise on the helmet, and tunnel vision forward through it, seem to make everything disappear, and the Earth tends to go "quiet" and stand still. The impression of quality comes from the machine skimming across the asphalt under you. My goal is to produce a machine that melts into the experience.





After years of searching, I have come to the conclusion that this is my best route. Ultimately, I would love to purchase a Model S and trailer Scrape around the country, looking for experiences. Dollar for dollar, I can't beat Elon's best efforts with four wheels and a body, but he couldn't afford to (profitably) put the time and technology into a car that I can stuff in my bike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Knowing one's personal strengths and weaknesses, and how to complement them is key to any notable success. I am good for always dreaming up something crazy to do, but I don't exactly have an engaging personality in lighthearted social affairs. So, I will eventually be recruiting some help. 









I'll be looking for intellectually stimulating, physically captivating, _public faces_ for the mission. Bonus points if I can find some who actually likes wrenching, double bonus if they are electronically inclined, and sirens/flashing lights if they can ride a bike.  We actually had some interview for Team Inhaler that would have fit the first two to a "tee". I also met a lady, while wasting my life at Autozone, who would have been totally badazz. She used to wrench on her Civic in the parking lot. She would show up looking like a super model, and leave with oil and grime up to her elbows.

The little hump on the end of the Scrape logo is actually the bike's body. I clipped that right out of the rear-three-quarter view PR pic, and then edited it. As mentioned before, in Italian automotive style, Scrape's body was designed to resemble feminine curves.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today, I worked on the rear seat mount. The goal, again, being to make Scrape roadworthy. As it is, even if I put it on an open trailer I might be missing parts and pieces by the time it reaches the destination. 

I cut a plate to fit in the recess in the seat pan, drilled it, and MIG welded two studs to it (bolts with the heads cut off). To position the studs, I drilled holes in a piece of 2x4" lumber, stuck the studs in them, put the plate over them, and clamped the whole thing to the welding table. The studs stuck about halfway (0.0625") into the (0.125") plate, and the holes were chamfered to give me lots of weld surface. This is the penetration on the other side.










Then, I ground them flat on the top (welded) side.










Finally, I bonded the plate to the pan. This isn't a strong bond, as the pan is LDPE (the slippery plastic things like cutting boards and glue bottles are made from). It's to keep everything locked in place until the carbon fiber has been laid-up, bagged, possibly cooked, and is fully cured. Then, the inner core will simply be trapped in the carbon fiber pan, adding a little strength to it.









Next, the front mount and a ridiculously over-the-top billet button (washer) to clamp it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...Next, the front mount and a ridiculously over-the-top billet button (washer) to clamp it.


This was pretty easy. I did most of it last night, and finished it up this morning. I had the basic design in mind and when I opened Rhino the physical size kind of determined the rest, so it happened quickly and easily. I think I am going to machine it from modeling board and have it cast. It's supposed to be copper to match the rivets in the seat "pad". Since it's so small, I will run the numbers to machine it directly from metal on the ShopBot.










It's basically a glorified washer, that will accept a 12pt bolt to secure the front of the seat.










The slot on the bottom is for the leather to slip into, and the dimples will actively clamp it in place against the carbon fiber pan. That's really not necessary, because there's a rivet just behind this, but the flutes extend down into the slot...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's turn for a little steel fabrication - with the lightweight stuff this time though.  The front seat mount is underway. I welded a nut to a washer, the washer to a piece of tubing, and have started creating a little boxed sheet metal mount, off the upper rear frame crossmember.









Barely any difference with it all installed, but it feels great to finally not wiggle around while riding it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Seat mount round three. I cut and hammered the vertical section of the mount today.










Welded it, and roughed it in. I'll do the bottom plate and finish this when I tear the whole bike back apart to really work on the frame, someday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More Scrape press: The 614 Magazine article was posted online today. I think there might be a print version coming too.

A couple facts askew, like "_the sound of the battery_" , and maybe "_golf-cart like hum_" isn't the most flattering description of my "musclebike", but overall, a nice write up - I like it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut the seat button (a glorified washer) plug today. We're going to attempt a lost-wax investment cast final piece, in aluminum. Another guy here will be doing the silicon mold and wax plugs, then we'll coat them with plaster, have the glass workers fire them in one of their kilns, melt some aluminum and try for a successful pour. With lessons learned from previous failures, we'll be casting the sprues and vents right into the investment mold. I'm speaking in plural, because the goal is to have a couple/few/handful, and come away with two good ones - one for Scrape, and one for the workshop to use for demonstration.

I want to have Scrape's button copper plated to match the rivets that will fasten the seat "pad".

Bottom in finishing:










Top after roughing:










The little feller off the machine:


















And on the bike:


















My favorite part is how bending it squashed the top of the counterbore a bit. I ran this with ten-five-thousandths of an inch stepover!  The machine patterns you can see in the close-ups can't be felt with the hand - it's smoooooth!  A little clean up on some areas the machine couldn't figure out how to get into and it's ready for mold making.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is there a reason you didn't just cut it out of aluminum, other than just trying to take the longest path to the same result?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is there a reason you didn't just cut it out of aluminum, other than just trying to take the longest path to the same result?


Yeah. A part of my deal with the community workshop is to demonstrate the capabilities of the shop and develop processes. I'm trying to give their casting department a kick in the ... It's been stagnant for years. Yes, I could have cut it easier.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is there a reason you didn't just cut it out of aluminum, other than just trying to take the longest path to the same result?


Second reason: It is much, much, easier to detail modeling board. I ran five-ten-thousandths step-over (the ball end mill moved that far over for the next cut) and even though the hand couldn't feel them, it still leaves tooling marks, and there are places the machine just doesn't get perfect. Modeling board holds precise details, but is also very easy to shape, so I can do the fine detailing faster and easier in it. Basically like making fine jewelry, in this little case. 

Ready for the silicone mold process.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First round of testing. He made an acrylic "mold box".










Gave the little feller a silicone bath.











Split the one-piece mold open with a razor blade, and removed the plug.










Then, just for kicks, poured some resin to test the mold.










It has some voids and unfilled areas, but this wasn't pressure cast, it was just poured and pulled after about 30 minutes, to see if the mold works.

















Next we perfect what was done today, and do a real pressure cast resin piece. Just for kicks, he has aluminum filler powder too...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I started on the tail light/honey seat mount today, on the manual mill.  This little hunk of aluminum will slip over the studs that hold the seat pan to the base - basically another over the top _Todd_ washer.











The tail light will fit in this little recess and be secured with a quick release pin. To accommodate the occasional honey, I pop the pin, pull the tail light, slip the honey seat in the slot, and replace the pin. The tail light will fit in the back of her seat. If possible, it would be nice to have the plugs and sockets incorporated into the parts so that the light automatically works when plugged into the rider seat, or attached honey seat. I can also have a bigger tail light for the street, if necessary, though I'd prefer just using really bright LEDs in a small resin casting.










It is milled flat on top to fit flush against the base.










Next, I translate what I have here into CAD and design the shape of the mount. I have this elongated barrel/keg idea in my head, but have to see if it will work on the actual part; and if the machine time on the ShopBot is reasonable. This piece is being completely machined from 6061, instead of being prototyped and cast like the button, because it bears the some of the weight of my honey - has to be strong...



In the meantime, a guy who runs a leatherworking business out of the Columbus Idea Foundry has started to add a little detail to the laser-engraved seat pad. He's raising and hammering (embossing) the Bat-T logo to make it pop out of the scene. We're tossing around ideas to bring the lightning bolt back to life after he finishes hammering the area around the T. I'm trying to figure out if I can make it light when the bike is powered up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to stop last night because I was exhausted and starting to make dumb mistakes. There's a nick in one of the counterbores where I tried to lower the end mill into it to reference my position, to square the ends of the part, and was off a little - all I had to do was look at the dial, and see it wasn't on "0", but I was tired and rushing to get through with the final steps so I could clean up and sit down...

Today, I reamed the holes out (they were bored with a .374" end mill), and got it to fit on the studs, so I could see it on the bike.

















Sorry for the fuzzy pics. Now to get it ready for some CNC detailing...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I really like that honey seat/rear light socket idea. I might have to borrow it to use on something. 

It shouldn't be too difficult to fit in a plug and socket set up to get the lights to work automatically.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I really like that honey seat/rear light socket idea. I might have to borrow it to use on something...


Thanks Woody!  Enjoy it, the only _cost_ is you have to share (pics)... 






Woodsmith said:


> ...It shouldn't be too difficult to fit in a plug and socket set up to get the lights to work automatically.


That's what I'm thinking. The lights will be cast in resin, so the plug can be cast in with them, and sockets attached to the seats.



So, here's my original idea for the mount - an, elongated, wooden barrel shape. It's kind of like a barrel hanging under the neck of a Saint Bernard.  The key to this design is it's really just a matter of skimming a little off the billet bar stock, to give it some detail, not serious machining. That _should_ make it a reasonable project for the ShopBot. By rastering along the length of the mount, and with just the right step-over, the machining pattern will serve as my _wood grain_. 








I will program it later or tomorrow to see what the actual machine times are. I had to figure out the fixturing process first, to determine how many setups. I can make a fixture from a piece of angle that will allow machining the two side undercut areas by simply flipping the mount over; then machine the top by bolting it directly to the table; all using the existing counterbored mounting holes. The ends have to be machined in separate operations, with a dedicated fixture for that, hanging the mount off the side of the ShopBot table - machine one side, flip it, machine the other.

I'm going to fill the socket with polymer clay so that it simlutaneously machines a casting plug for the light. Here's a rendering of what I had in mind for finishes. My initial thoughts are to have it copper plated, leaving the socket and counterbores unplated; and then sand/grind the copper plating from the hoops (straps), which would also remove the machining marks from them. Then, I would put it back on the machine and engrave the "T's", exposing the aluminum. With the light assembly cast in clear resin, the LEDs would be visible in them, and the socket would be visible. I like my machined socket so much that I don't want to cover it with an opaque lens.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think I am going to go for the wooden barrel concept. Actual machine time works out to about four hours, meaning I'll probably be on the machine for six to seven hours total, or about my normal. I'm running at probably half the max speed for aluminum, to get the final surface detail I want. This is the machining preview.









I'll cut the two undercut sides in two separate operations (image on the right), and then the top in one operation. Neither the heavily scored areas or the completely smooth surfaces are correct. The final finish should be lightly patterned with tool marks. The fillet left in the corners of the hoops is small enough to easily hand file, and the hoops look tall enough to stand out after being smoothed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Saturday, we poured a new two-part, silicone-rubber, mold for the seat button. 










Today, Gary designed a rubber band clamp for the new mold, and we gave it a test run.










He mixed up a little batch of aluminum-filled resin, and did a pressure casting, to produce this little rascal.









It was dull gray fresh out of the mold, and I buffed it with steel wool and mineral spirits, then went over it with wire brushes on the Dremel. Pretty impressive, but I want metal. This was just to test the mold and play with the metal filler.


Next up is supposed to be the wax plugs for investment casting. We'll see how that goes. I am only doing this to help get their casting program moving, but don't sense much enthusiasm for it. I did this for the sand cast throttle pedal pad on Schism, and they never even used the pictures and video from the process to promote the classes.  If there isn't any motivation on their parts to take advantage of this, I might stop here and just cut myself a copper one.  Gary can use the pictures I've taken so far to promote his upcoming silicone-rubber molding/resin casting classes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Eight hours on the ShopBot today, trying to machine the tail light/honey seat mount; and I am really no further ahead than when I started!  The only thing I accomplished is building a fixture that let's me locate the part, and flip it for doing the two undercut areas of the sides.

I still don't know why, but I could not get the machine to follow my model and machine the barrel shape. It didn't hurt anything, because it just would not cut deep enough. I have never had this problem, and don't know if it's software or me this time. I tried tweaking the model, I tried tweaking the programming settings, all to no avail. It's a really easy shape, and what it did cut it did beautifully, so no apparent reason for it to not follow the model, and what shows in the preview.

Live to fight another day...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I'm over the ShopBot failing to cut my barrel, I started thinking about how to finish it. I decided to just hand smooth it, in the general shape of the barrel, without the _wood slats_, hoops, and faux woodgrain. Just a smooth, convex roll. I was able to use the marks the ShopBot provided as guides. Then, I turned a coupling nut into a couple temporary barrel nuts to facilitate the million and one times it will go on and off the bike, as I develop it. It will ultimately be secured with Allen nuts, that will be recessed inside the counterbores.









Now, I can start on the honey seat mount, and the lights. I am also going to cut recesses into the sides to hold clear lens LED side marker lights. Ideally, they'll glow red when the ignition is on and flash amber when turning. I also want five LEDS in the tail light that glow red for running lights, brighter red for stop, and go sequential in the direction of a turn when either turn signal is on. Maybe one solid park or brake light steady on on the opposite side, then four sequential flashes that start red for the first three, and end with an amber flash at the end. Simple.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Readjustment in thinking/strategy. The plans for IPM (Toyota or Remy based) were starting to spiral Scrape down a path I am not sure whether or not I want to travel. I want the performance, but it was slowly gaining more and more weight for the sake of power. The Remy-based motor alone weighs 101lbs, then the battery pack gains considerable weight to deliver 600-720 volts, and so on, and so on...

My real desire is to build as lightweight of a bike as possible, to facilitate economical and enjoyable testing and development work. In that spirit, and after consulting our resident motor guru (major), I am stepping back to good ol' series-wound DC for a bit to have some abusive fun with Scrape and start plotting the course forward again.

I pulled the trigger on the motor, and should have it within a couple weeks. It's a 6.6" motor, 9.5" long, about the size of the common D&D motors, and also the same exact size as an HPEVS AC 12, hint-hint. So, I can throw everything my little Alltrax can handle at it, move up to an Open Revolt or even a Soliton Jr, and then possibly an AC 12, with a 144v Curtis. The graph for that combination is very tempting.  It's far from the 200-240hp of the Remy/Rinehart-based combo, but is a nice step in the right direction, while I sort the bike, and my personal desires, out.

Street-_terrorizing_ Scrape version 1.2 in the making...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good choice. I think you'll have more fun seeing what you can get out of this motor than waiting around for the perfect motor/controller setup. By the time you've done all you can with this there may be even more, better options.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Good choice. I think you'll have more fun seeing what you can get out of this motor than waiting around for the perfect motor/controller setup...


Thanks, and I agree. I never really planned to wait too long though. I had been planning to move up to a Mars motor as an intermediate step for a while, but decided on series-wound instead because I want to play, aggressively.  I had a little (non Mars) PMDC motor picked out too and had tabs open with each, volleying back and forth trying to decide which one to buy (about the same price).

Indeed though,_ seeing what I can get out of it_ was the decision maker... 





JRP3 said:


> ...By the time you've done all you can with this there may be even more, better options.


That's what I'm hoping. It's completely fascinating what's available now, compared to what was possible (for the DIYer) when you led me here almost five years ago.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple other things I have coming: a 48 volt scooter charger and a socket for the bike that fits the charger plug.

I have been swapping wires around to charge Scrape with an automotive 12v charger for a year. In addition to being extremely annoying, it also serves as a deterrent to riding the bike, and getting it ready for real riding. Even though it will still take a long time to charge, at 2.5 amps, I will finally be able to simply plug in every time I park it, keeping the batteries topped off and ready to go.

Coming next, I am going to purchase four more of the little AGM batteries, to finally fill both sides of the box, a smaller AGM battery for my 12v system, and a small 48-12v DC-DC (they're really cheap on FleaBay). After that, I plan to purchase a Cycle Analyst, to give me real information on what's going on. The goal is to get it functioning like a normal EV.

When all that stuff is sorted out and working as well as possible, I will start planning a decent battery pack; with real usage numbers _in hand_. I have one potential sponsorship/testing deal lurking, but even without it a small LiPo pack wouldn't be terribly expensive. Then, a controller that will let me push whatever limits it is capable of.

That's the road map...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have the 48v charger, and the motor is supposed to be here Monday. 

The charger is classically Chinese in look and feel - CHEAP plastic housing, like it was made in the sixties or seventies. I (voltage) tested it to make sure it actually works, but haven't charged the pack with it yet. That's coming up today or tomorrow, because I've been roaming around the aisles the last couple days.

The socket will get here sometime next week, and I will finally be able to simply plug in. I can't wait for that.

I diverted a couple bucks to Squat because I wanted to wait until I feel it with the series motor before making decisions on what to buy next for Scrape. Squat is also giving me a nice artistic outlet, so I can really focus more on speed, power, and engineering, here. The choices are four more of the little batteries I have, or four of the bigger U-1 sized AGMs. They have triple the capacity, and twice the power, but also come with a 60lb weight penalty over the little rascals. With the series motor able to handle everything the Alltrax can throw at it, either pack of AGMs is going to sag horribly at 300amps, so it's a choice of whether keeping it light or adding range is best now.

I think the next step, after getting it on the road, is going to be around $750-1000 worth of RC LiPo cells.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My motor is in town, but I won't get to play with it until Monday.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The little beastie arrived, on schedule, but not without incident.  The guy packaged it in a HD box, but with soft foam. The motor found it's way through the foam, and almost out the side of the box. It broke the A1 terminal tab on the aluminum CE end cap. I'm not sending it back. I will send the seller these pics and see if he's willing to make things right - if not I will just save his name and location, for future reference.


















I can fix this.











I really like the motor though. It has sealed bearings, aluminum ends, and a normal 7/8" keyed shaft under that gear.











It has, however, been around the block a few times. There's some scoring on the comm, and a few small chips on the edges in a couple bars. 
It spins nice though. I will post a video in a bit - I forgot to charge my cameras batteries, and it said no more as soon as I turned hit record.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There is a little noise in it, that I didn't notice earlier. What is it? Am I screwed? Is it a piece of junk?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The socket for the charger also arrived today, so I installed it and used the 48v charger for the first time. I still had to swap the main wires from the controller to the charger wires, but that was a snap compared to what I had to do before, and I could simply plug in and wait for the green light. It only took ~1.5hrs, at 2.5 amps, from a completely drained pack (I know, I know... ), but granted I only have 288 WATTS max to replace right now! 



















Excuse the mess. That polycarbonate from me cutting the hole for the socket. I have to make some kind of terminal/buss bar for the new motor and charger, because I want to move up to 6AWG for the pack to controller, and controller to motor cables. I'll configure it as universally as possible to allow me to plug or bolt up whatever type of batteries I end up with; figuring on a couple/few changes over the next year.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I kind of rock at reverse engineering stuff, if I do say so myself.  This was a simple pattern, but a little odd in the hole spacing - nailed it, first attempt. 










The (.250 x .500") grid pattern is so that I can measure off the pattern, with the motor in place, to develop the chassis side of the mount. I was in a rush the last time, and want to really nail the placement and chain alignment this go around. Some of the chain noise on Scrape is because it's touching the plastic guide on the front of the swingarm. A bigger front sprocket will lift it off the guide, but with better placement of the motor this time, I should be able to get even the 10-tooth sprocket to clear.

I cut this poster board pattern to check. Next I'll laser an acrylic version in the proper thickness, and raster (engrave) the grid (so it doesn't cut through). I was pressed for time, so I tried to mark the grid by backing the power down/ramping up the speed, but it still cut through. The whole things is really flimsy, and has masking tape on the backside, holding it together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Acrylic pattern cut, and fits like a glove.  I was trying to wait to see what happens with this motor before pulling the PM motor and starting on the swap...










Plus, another video of the motor turning. At JRP3's suggestion, I removed the brushes and turned it with the lathe. The sound you hear in this one is the lathe, the motor is pretty quiet, so the noise was coming from the brushes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This motor ain't gonna mount itself, so time to get busy. Up on the stands Scrape!










Out with the old, and in with the _new_; and this time let's get the chain to clear and have proper alignment. I plan to put some power through it...










I cut a frame mount pattern on the laser. It was just a rectangle when I cut it, and then hand trimmed (see below). The important points here are the holes are parallel to the front edge, so I could use it against the grid to locate the motor, relative to the frame mounts. Note that the front edge is parallel to, and mating with, one of the vertical grid lines, and I've made pen marks to line up with some of the horizontal grid lines.










Which allowed me to pull the frame mount pattern into CAD. The black curves are the motor section, of course, the red curves are the frame mount, and the yellow curves are the horizontal marks and the shape of the rear edge of the old mount, which had already been clearanced to fit the Ninja chassis.











I combined those to create this. I cut the poster board pattern to check my work against the blue acrylic grid pattern and the frame mounts, then cut an acrylic test mount - bingo! 










One of the key features for this motor, for me, over the more conventional Warp 7-sized series-DC motor, is the short frame. I know it costs power, but the motor stays tucked inside the chassis. Actually, this motor is the perfect length, as the ProTech, or a Motoenergy motor, didn't quite fill the space. I plan to make a cylindrical sprocket cover for the other side to bring it to to match this. I'm thinking a hand-crafted mesh _can_, so you can still see inside, but it _completes the picture_...










I might cut the aluminum tomorrow, and get this puppy bolted in, and wired up. I can't wait to feel it with a normal motor!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday felt like a good day to play with the CNC router so...



















And the little beastie is officially a part of the Scrape mission. 










Next up - get it wired and see how it feels...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

C'mon, and get it wired up! I can't wait any longer!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> C'mon, and get it wired up! I can't wait any longer!


Lol, it's still going to be slow as molasses because, even though the motor can take the 300 amps the Alltrax can dish out, the batteries in that little box can't cough them up to start the process. The voltage will probably also sag too bad to get full torque.

I'm exploring what I want to do for a cheap intermediate (AGM) step between now and a _proper_ lithium pack, and at least a 144v/500amp controller.

Stay tuned...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not just drop some coin and pick up some CALB 40s? They could hit your 500 amp peak for a bit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Why not just drop some coin and pick up some CALB 40s? They could hit your 500 amp peak for a bit.


Too big. Even at 48 volts they take up a lot of real estate. I'm going LiPo. I can do a pack of the RC cells for under $2K that can be configured for 48, 96, or 144, volts in a fraction of the space. I wouldn't have a lot of range, but I would meet my weight and power goals, with room to spare...

The AGM next step is just because for $75-300 I can do more testing and make better decisions...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

evmetro said:


> C'mon, and get it wired up! I can't wait any longer!


+1

Video please


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> +1
> 
> Video please


 Patience grasshoppers! 

I was just playing with the math on a 148v pack of LiPo cells, and an Open Revolt-based controller, with this motor - looks very tasty!  I would have probably have to invest in a stock of rear tires, and decent leathers though, as the ability to drift and play would be irresistible...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, looking great sir. One offer of advice, please make a similar mount for the rear/brush end of the motor to the frame as that torque through the chain will twist your mount plate and derail your chain!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, looking great sir. One offer of advice, please make a similar mount for the rear/brush end of the motor to the frame as that torque through the chain will twist your mount plate and derail your chain!


Thanks Tyler!  That's definitely in the cards. The little ProTech was able to flex its steel mount, though not enough to throw the chain, so I know this little beastie would.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm in the process of wiring up the new motor, and decided to give my little controller some "sexy".  Just because it's a low-powered Alltrax golf cart controller, doesn't mean it has to look like one.  First, I removed the metal top panel, and the plastic end caps. Then, I wired brushed the _blues_ away, milled the tops of the aluminum frame flat, and milled reliefs in the sides for a socket to fit on the mounting bolts properly.










Next, I go into my CAD workshop and design new top and side covers. This won't be anything crazy. Probably just laser etched, and cut, acrylic; with my Bat-T logo of course. Simple LEDs inside, will illuminate the caps (the one thing that's not sealed in potting compound ), and the logo. The blue anodizing that's left inside should work nice with the lights.




Another reason for doing stuff like this is it's part of my mission here in the community workshop. I test the equipment to see what it's made of. This little mill drill has some issues. I carefully located it over one of the mounting holes by dropping an appropriately sized end mill in the hole, locked the table, and switched to a .750" end mill to cut the relief. Simple operation, in really soft aluminum (the wire brush could literally gouge and even melt the metal and change the shape). The whole table slid, despite being locked, when the end mill touched the aluminum!  It moved this much!!! Granted, I was using a pretty aggresive, two-flute, spiral-cut, end mill but there is absolutely no way it should have moved a locked down mill table... Note to CIF community - be very, very, careful on critical parts! I adjusted and got the other three half-decent, but am lucky this was not an important and/or expensive part. Also lucky for them we just nabbed up a new, old, manual knee mill for _free_ that will take over such duties.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is slowing my progress a bit, but is worth it to me because it will make Scrape look a little more upscale than that blue and white. "I'm-a-golf-cart-controller-screaming", little box that was breaking up my growing collection of aluminum drivetrain components. I have a little tinkering to do, and it will be ready to cut. I have to get some clear, or very light-tinted, acrylic though. Quickie poster board test - the tan areas will be kind of, frosted-looking, laser-engraving.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Please excuse the dust. After burning half of a week on it, here's my little controller.  I still need to fasten the sides at the bottoms, but it's basically done. I had some light smoke-tinted acrylic and liked what I saw when I cut the first test pieces, so I stuck with it. It took three cuts, after the poster board test, to get them to fit properly. The terminals slots needed to be rotated (together) a bit in the side panel, and I bypassed the drama and just enlarged and elongated the LED hole because it's twisted in the potting compound. I am going to put LEDs inside, but nothing crazy, just on/off with the controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I burned most of last week designing and fabricating the new controller housing. I burned the weekend designing and fabricating a fan mount for the heat sink. Since I now have the ability to push the little Alltrax to its meager limits, with the series motor, I wanted to make sure I do everything I can to keep the magic smoke in it. 

I purchased a 120mm, 80 cfm, computer case fan and designed a mount for it that would be tack welded to the heat sink in place of the two missing fins. I modeled the actual fan mount sections in Pro/E since they are simple parts. I try to do something in it occasionally, so I don't get too rusty in parametric modeling. I rendered them in Rhino, because Pro/E's render kept coming out goofy, and I didn't feel like troubleshooting.










Then, I modeled the whole assembly in Rhino (minus the heat sink) just to be certain it was what I wanted. The fan is from Google SketchUp Warehouse. The velocity stack will be carbon fiber, bonded to the a thin aluminum base plate. The carbon fiber sleeve is en route.










I cut acrylic test pieces to check the design and cut them in aluminum on the CNC router. I was lost in what I was doing and forgot to take pics along the way. By the time I remembered, it looked like this.  I also used thermal paste this time.


















It's now on the bike, minus the velocity stack.










Tomorrow, I _string_ the cables, and take it for a ride... 












I'm going to turn this puppy into a forced air system - with matching carbon fiber velocity stack. I plan to weld it directly to the band that seals the other ports, so I'll have a one-piece custom setup for this size motor. I also have to find a 12v motor for it (to replace the little AC motor). Ideally, I need a little pancake style motor to fit in the tight space I have there.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Don't forget that motor mount!
Also Todd, if the ac motor fits, why not use a little rc controller that varies output with motor temp to not waste power? Just a thought I've had for ages re motor cooling.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Also, as you increase power my concern that your frame is lacking stiffness without the stressed support of the ice and should be replaced with some sort of structure. I've toyed with this myself and my keenest solution has been an integrated motor mount and battery housing frame that bridges from frame motor mounts up to headstock and holds the motor and battery and controller/electrics all on a bolt in structure meaning you can remove the assembly and 'plonk'iy at working height on a table, and also that it may be modular for use in different platforms.

I'm giving my great ideas and secrets away here, and only because I trust you to do them proud!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just finished wiring the motor and took it for the first spin around the shop!  I'm gonna love this... 



tylerwatts said:


> Don't forget that motor mount!...


That single 6061 aluminum motor mount is, perhaps, much more rigid that you think it is. It isn't going to flex until I can dump some current in the motor, and I don't have enough battery to accomplish that right now. I will add the CE side mount before I have the ability to twist it. 


*Observation:*
The difference is undeniable. My next investment is going to be a cable so I can get the controller setup. The throttle is not going to zero, so when I open the contactor the bike moves a little. I have been ignoring it because, with the little ProTech motor it didn't really matter much, other than wasting energy. I could literally stall the motor and hold the bike still, easily. (I didn't do that, as I know it would eventually harm the brushes and commutator - just saying the pull/torque was that light.)

With the series motor, it's pulling pretty good. I can probably stall it - didn't try - but I am moving along a decent little pace with no throttle input.  I need to stop that. Also, I need to set a limit on what the controller is pulling from my little scooter AGMs. It feels much snappier, and then I can tell I am doing something bad because I can literally feel the voltage sag, as the controller tries to find something, somewhere, to make the power I am asking for. 

In one trip through the shop, I drained the batteries halfway - took, 45 mins to bring them back to full, where the most it took before was 1.5 hours. I was cranking on the throttle though to see what I have. I know I am eventually going to waste these batteries. Accepted risk. They cost $60, a year ago... 

Videos when I can arrange for a camera person...







tylerwatts said:


> Also, as you increase power my concern that your frame is lacking stiffness without the stressed support of the ice and should be replaced with some sort of structure. I've toyed with this myself and my keenest solution has been an integrated motor mount and battery housing frame that bridges from frame motor mounts up to headstock and holds the motor and battery and controller/electrics all on a bolt in structure meaning you can remove the assembly and 'plonk'iy at working height on a table, and also that it may be modular for use in different platforms.
> 
> I'm giving my great ideas and secrets away here, and only because I trust you to do them proud!


Again, I'm not making enough power yet to harm anything. I'm moving at bicycle speeds right now, on smooth concrete shop floors, and Scrape and I both are featherweights.

My idea is similar, but the motor won't be incorporated, at least in the next iteration. When I upgrade the batteries I will add a bridge like structure that runs between the front and rear ICE mounts, tying the frame together like the ICE did, using the points Kawasaki engineered for it. If you look behind my motor, you'll see a tubular piece that runs from where the motor bolts (original ICE mounting location) to the same point on the other side. The new bridge will bolt to this tube, and the identical lower one, under and behind the motor, then to the front mount (the curved structures coming down to the battery box in front. The battery box will mount to this bridge, and the existing polycarbonate center panel will be cut off just over it.

Hope all that makes sense.


I am also still working on the design for Scrape 2.0 - my proprietary frame, which will replace all this and accept the current body. It will be all aluminum.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Also Todd, if the ac motor fits, why not use a little rc controller that varies output with motor temp to not waste power? Just a thought I've had for ages re motor cooling.


I forgot about this one. I want to keep it simple - just on and off with via a temperature sensor. That little motor was actually kind of noisy too. It's a really cheap, sheet metal framed, single phase, AC motor; and it only turned 2870. I'd like to replace it with a quiet PM motor with more speed. I have a few saved in my Watch List...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ahead sounds good. How will you control the pm motor? RC controller would still be ideal for this. Just have a resistive switch set to the speed/current wanted from the motor and it acts as a safety current limiter also.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Ahead sounds good. How will you control the pm motor? RC controller would still be ideal for this. Just have a resistive switch set to the speed/current wanted from the motor and it acts as a safety current limiter also.


A lot of these small motors (I am just assuming it'll be PM) are rated for no load speed at 12v, so with the load of the fan wheel moving air I think it will be safe just running direct. I'll just use a relay and let it rip - on/off.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My new, slightly better, AGM, batteries were supposed to arrive to today, but are evidently behind schedule. Tracking still says today, but doesn't show them in Columbus yet. USPS has been here and he said it's unlikely there would be a second delivery, so, one more day...

In the meantime, I have been mentally toying with the idea of a range extender trailer for a motorcycle for a while. I think I want to pursue it with Scrape. A small trailer, like you see the big touring bikes pulling, but with either a genset/ICE or large LiFePO4 pack. It has to either allow unlimited range via the generator, or fast charging and not a lot of down time via a large enough LiFe pack to take a fast charge/provide substantial range between stops. Then, there is also the matter of compatibility if I have a LiPo main pack, and a LiFePO4 extender...

Let the math games begin. The challenge is to find the sweet spot where the weight of the extender provides maximum benefit, without excessive penalty (actual towing ability of the bike, and handling/storage). I'll try to let the math be the main determining factor, instead of setting some arbitrary goal and struggling to meet it.

If it's done right, it could be a really neat touring solution. Imagine taking a road trip, and leaving the range extender in the hotel room to recharge while you go out and explore and enjoy.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

At low speeds, range is proportional to the fraction of weight in batteries. If you plot

(battery_weight) / (battery_weight + car weight)

You'll see it's pretty linear up to about 30% -- so you could say that's the top of the biggest range bang for the buck for each addtional battery. Lee Hart used to say to aim for about 1/3 the weight in batteries in the lead acid days. The next point of interest is the "knee" in the curve. It's pretty broad and gradual, but I would say it is around 50% to 60% batteries. Going super high (~90%) gives very little additional range for each additional battery.

At high speeds it is different. If wind resistance is your dominate loss (as it well could be on a motorcycle at high speed), then weight doesn't matter much. You'd want as many batteries as you could safely hold.

This discussion does not consider battery life, cost, room for batteries, weight budget for batteries, etc. Real life considerations will likely knock the weight down.

Now for some real life comparisons for % battery by weight:

Nissan Leaf: 20%, ~80 mile range
Tesla Model S: 26%, ~300 mile range (but the battery might be a different higher energy chemistry?)
GM EV-1: 42% for ~80 mile range, lead acids, probably the most thoroughly and best engineered car for being electric ever, this car could go 500+ miles on the same weight in lithiums!
Brammo motorcycle 25%? (did that by scaling to Tesla, so take with a grain of salt).

Anyway, if you want to leverage billions of dollars of engineering, it looks like something in the neighborhood of 20% to 40% is what the big guys do.

BTW I find it sad the GM EV-1 did about 80 miles on lead acid, and most of the new lithium cars do about 80 miles on lithium... It's sad that more emphasis is not put on efficiency. You'd think efficiency would be cheaper than throwing more expensive batteries at the problem?



toddshotrods said:


> My new, slightly better, AGM, batteries were supposed to arrive to today, but are evidently behind schedule. Tracking still says today, but doesn't show them in Columbus yet. USPS has been here and he said it's unlikely there would be a second delivery, so, one more day...
> 
> In the meantime, I have been mentally toying with the idea of a range extender trailer for a motorcycle for a while. I think I want to pursue it with Scrape. A small trailer, like you see the big touring bikes pulling, but with either a genset/ICE or large LiFePO4 pack. It has to either allow unlimited range via the generator, or fast charging and not a lot of down time via a large enough LiFe pack to take a fast charge/provide substantial range between stops. Then, there is also the matter of compatibility if I have a LiPo main pack, and a LiFePO4 extender...
> 
> ...


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

With lithium, maximum range becomes more more of a packaging issue regarding volume. Tesla did the right thing by putting them under the car and not losing passenger or storage space to odd shapes. Weight has less impact on rolling resistance than you think and regen, in general gives back a little when it comes to weight penalty, aero is far more important IMO.

Tesla Model S and beyond are built with efficiency in mind with an aerodynamic body made of aluminum instead of heavier steel. The cells themselves are higher density than the LiMn in the Leaf and most other production EVs and lithium-based hybrids.

"GM EV-1: 42% for ~80 mile range, lead acids, probably the most thoroughly and best engineered car for being electric ever, this car could go 500+ miles on the same weight in lithiums!"

The efficiency of the NiMh version was 165wh/mile, the lead-acid pack was 1310 pounds and the Tesla Model S 85kwh pack is 1300 pounds. 85000/165=515 miles. The battery pack area in the EV1 was huge so I'm sure the packaging could be managed. LiFePO4 of the same weight would be probably 60kwh or maybe 350-400 miles. John Wayland is in progress with potentially 400 miles at 65mph with a 71.5kwh pack in a 1st Gen Honda Insight. Same car I'm converting but mine will be 19.2kwh and I'm figuring 120 miles at 60mph but we'll see how far it really goes.

A side note, another benefit to greater efficiency is that the level 2 EVSE charging rates become more useful. A 160wh/mile car putting 6.6kw into the battery is putting in 41.25 miles in an hour. Pulling 40 amps from a 50 amp RV plug would get you over 100 miles in a 2 hour stop. I think my EVCCON trip will be focused more on trying to find friendly RV parks rather than L2.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the posts and numbers guys!  I was out all day on a road trip to pick up a new lathe for the shop, so I haven't had a chance to dig into this, but will soon. I want to start doing some CAD mock-ups to see what a trailer full of batteries would look like, based on the basic numbers you guys have been posting. I need to look at some motorcycle conversions and production bikes to get an idea of the wh/mile numbers.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Collecting my thoughts for a sec, but I am about to go get the stuff to wire Scrape up with the new pack. In preparation, I did all this:

Based on my thoughts and chicken scratches for what I would do for a from-scratch, original, frame design to match the current body, profile, and state, I decided on these to tie the chassis back together. Whether I decide to keep going/be satisfied with the factory steel frame, or build an aluminum version, it will get a lot of small section triangulation - sort of Ducati style, but with my creative slant.


















Then, I built a battery mount for the heavier 18ah AGMs. They're the same size as Odyssey PC680s, so I have the option of a second intermediary upgrade to those, or going lithium. The steel is overdone and way too heavy, but it was here/free, and faster/cheaper to knock out than aluminum. If I decide to stick with this size box, I will replicate this in aluminum, eventually.









With the new batteries.











Then, I removed the old pack and box, and trimmed the Lexan plate.











Here's the new setup, tacked in place. The old box now makes nice aluminum covers for the batteries. I can remove one or both covers to access the batteries for inspection and testing, without disturbing the actual mount. I'm still trying to decide how I want to close the tops.



















Welded up and ready for final assembly and wiring. This whole structure is bolt-in, but designed to be a structural component in the chassis. It feels very strong and rigid.










If wiring goes well, I should report back later with the first observations on _finally_ having a tiny bit of power...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks quite (edit) functional Todd, but effective. Once proven I look forward to the optimised design. More keen to see the new performance of that sweet little motor!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

PS, hope that didn't come across insulting, think we're just used to more Todd flare in even the simplest components! It's what sets your builds apart from most.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks quite fictional Todd, but effective. Once proven I look forward to the optimised design...





tylerwatts said:


> PS, hope that didn't come across insulting, think we're just used to more Todd flare in even the simplest components! It's what sets your builds apart from most.


Functional or fictional? No offense taken here - it was hard for me to just throw this together, because I wanted to go overboard!  I'll make up for it, promise I will! 





tylerwatts said:


> ...More keen to see the new performance of that sweet little motor!


Me too! Hopefully in a few hours, tomorrow at the latest, I will be able to start that data stream.  I've been out chasing parts and supplies all day. If I got my list right...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...If wiring goes well, I should report back later with the first observations on _finally_ having a tiny bit of power...


Now that's more like it!  Scrape's got a little pep in its step now! 

I only did a few quick romps around the shop, but the new batteries are working. It leaps into action when I summon it now. On the smooth, dusty, painted concrete shop floors, I can spin the back tire pretty much at will; and get the back to step out a little. I think I was somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle max.

I also purchased a new cable and can finally sync with the controller. I think I was wrong about the Honda TPS. I thought it was a potentiometer, but I can't get it to give me a simple 0-5v signal, which makes me think it's actually a Hall-effect sensor. The controller was set to 0-5k from the factory, and in that mode it works smoothly, but never goes to "0". I have to open the contactor when I want the throttle all the way off - I've been doing that for the last year.  If I switch to 0-5v the controller doesn't get anything from the TPS and stays at 0%. I might need a 48 - 5v inverter. I'm going to ask Curt to do some research on the Honda TPS.

I did a really short dry burnout (lock the front brakes and quickly roll the throttle on until the rear tire breaks loose and spins). It did it (on painted concrete), but the tire started slowing down and I got a little smoke from somewhere, causing me to back out of the throttle and shut everything off. Otherwise, I think I could have rolled deeper into the throttle and kept it going. I think the smoke came from something burning on or off the controller to motor cables. The controller and motor were not even warm (to the touch), but those cables were a little warm. I also stuck my nose over the openings of the motor and controller, and didn't smell anything like it inside them.

My 12v starter solenoid also starts to warm up. It's rated for intermittent duty, and definitely doesn't like to be on too long. I need to replace that, and start working out a list of little things that were okay with no power, but could be trouble now. 

More to come...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Congrats on the ride...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Congrats on the ride...


Thanks Mike!  This is still just at 48 volts and with lead. It has enough power now though, to start testing, establish some baselines, and work out some of the kinks. 65, then 100, then 150, then 200+...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Amps?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Amps?


Lol!  That's about where I was before, with the little scooter batteries.

I had hit each battery with a 12v car charger earlier in the day. They ranged from about 13.3 - 14 volts when I installed them in Scrape. When I hooked up my little 1-1/2 amp/12v (AGM) scooter charger, only the one that was ~14v would turn the 12v AGM charger's green light on, so three of them were not completely topped off.

I rode through the place one last time, after making certain the smoke wasn't anything critical, then put it on the 48v (AGM) charger. It took about 1:20 to top them off.

I need to get at least an amp gauge reading motor current, and a meter between the charger and wall socket, to start getting an idea of what I am doing. I'm considering moving the Cycle Analyst up my list of priorities.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TPS's often don't go to zero. The one from my Fiero was around 2-5k Ohms. I ground down the lower stop and got it to go down to around 1k Ohm, which was low enough to stop the motor from turning. Put an Ohmmeter on it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> TPS's often don't go to zero. The one from my Fiero was around 2-5k Ohms. I ground down the lower stop and got it to go down to around 1k Ohm, which was low enough to stop the motor from turning. Put an Ohmmeter on it.


Oh yeah, I remember you doing that now! I might give that a try, and I will definitely put a meter on it today. I was wiped out from a long day by the time I hit that point yesterday, and just wanted to ride the darn thing.

I think the actual pinout on these things is:


5v reference in
 Wiper out
Ground
So, do you think it would work to use a 5v power supply, and switch to 0-5v (in the controller), or would I likely still not get down to "0". I found a 48-5v power supply on eBay, for $10, that could be here by the weekend. I looked for 48-5v because it's referencing ground from pack voltage, not the 12v system, so I tried to keep everything on pack voltage, rather than try to isolate the power source.


If that's not going to work, I'll just grind the stop like you did and live with it...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can you change the resistance value range in the controller to raise it up from 0?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Can you change the resistance value range in the controller to raise it up from 0?


Nope. That's what I thought I was going to do, when I finally got a cable that worked. Alltrax doesn't give the ability to change the upper and lower values. I can select what type of input, the type of curve it uses, and the rate.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> .. I ground down the lower stop and got it to go down to around 1k Ohm, which was low enough to stop the motor from turning...


So, I removed the Accord TB base to get the TPS out in the open because it has what I learned are anti-tamper fasteners. I was all set to dig in and gain the ability to tune the TPS (that how it's done on cars - remove, replace, and tune by turning until you get .5 at "0") - when I realized the throttle stop screw was almost all the way in!!!! 

DOH!!!

I turned the screw in, put it back together, and it now sits patiently waiting for me to say go!  It's even more responsive now that I am not starting at 10-15% (guesstimate). I can creep, build speed almost imperceptibly, or blast off.

Speaking of blasting off - I can effortlessly leave long strips of black rubber on the shop floor, and assume drift (tail out) position, at will.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Excellent to hear Todd, now where's the video? Feed us man, don't leave us hanging!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

+1 on the video


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Excellent to hear Todd, now where's the video? Feed us man, don't leave us hanging!





JRP3 said:


> +1 on the video


I'm working on it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It took a HUGE effort to get Squat ready for the Mini Maker Faire, which distracted me from getting anymore seat time on Scrape, or video, last week. Even with the, solicited, help of three other people, I barely got Squat there as I wanted it - but I did at least get to stop and sleep for four hours this year. 

At the event, Scrape was an absolute blast!  When we unloaded it from the truck I rode it around a little - first time out of the shop, and with room to play- I was a rolling ! I had to force myself to stop and set up my exhibit.

I did a scheduled ride for the event, just before the Power Tool Drag Races, then put it back on the charger - it took almost an hour to top off. Back of the napkin says that's 20-25% of the (real) capacity used/replenished. COSI, the host venue, didn't want me to ride in the midst of human traffic this year, so I had to push the bike to the designated riding area, play, then push it back to my exhibit. That video was shot by our resident video/photog guy, and should be pretty impressive, but I doubt he will release it until he's had the chance to edit it. 

Near the end of the MMF, the crowd had thinned significantly so Alex gave me the thumbs up to play again. I did the former route plus a bunch of loops and sprints around the main outdoor event area (that I wasn't supposed to ride in ). Alex shot that video with his new Galaxy Note (the one that comes with the watch), and I am chompin at the bit here, waiting for him to release it; but nothing yet...  I did a couple fly-byes aimed right at him until the last second that I can't wait to see.

I promise to share as soon as I have something.

I was pushing it way too hard, because it just felt too good to stop. I need to do some work on the forks, and I still haven't decided on what I want for front end geometry and designed/cut the new triple clamps. The other issue is I had no idea what I was pulling from the battery, and was guessing that I wasn't taking it too far down in DOD (not even close), based on what the old batteries did. I used maybe half the juice in the second romp - it took a little less than two hours to trickle back up.

I still don't think I went past half-throttle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple fun pics while I wait for the videos to be released:

Curt, my 200mph TIG man. It's an overlay of two different takes of the same pic, a sepia-style main pic and a full color of the weld zone; then one of the _un-lit_ torch ready to weld.











Me on my demonstration ride at the Mini Maker Faire.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One of the other business tenants in CIF is a leather worker. He provides custom _toys and accessories_ for his normal clientele, but likes doing different things occasionally to relax and unwind from his daily grind. A new seat for Scrape provided that relief last week. I engraved the pattern on the leather with the laser, and he went to work cutting, hammering, and dyeing. I love it. 











I requested this textured pattern, after seeing it on something else he had done. The "T" has a filling he makes, between two layers of leather, making it really puff up.











I am going to cut, and hammer, a .250" thick aluminum pan that the leather will be bonded to . It will be flush with the edges of the leather, and roll under on the bottom edge, for a subtle contrast.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have had the carbon fiber sleeve for the v-stacks for a while now, and actually cut the foam core for the controller fan stack before the Mini Maker Faire, but didn't have time to dig into it. After wrapping up a client project today, I decided to start fitting the foam core. It had to be contoured to fit around the new frame rail, including the half-round top section that will eventually close that rail. A little rasp, Dremel, and sandpaper work, and it's almost ready for carbon fiber.



















I tried to cut a foam ring for the roll on the end, but the ShopBot mangled it. I'll just buy a piece of foam or plastic rod and heat-n-bend it to fit. The process will be: lay up the main stack, then fit the ring, and wrap the cloth over it, trim, and finish the lay-up, creating a rolled outside perimeter, then dissolve the foam core.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Neat stuff. What do you use to dissolve the core, acetone?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Neat stuff. What do you use to dissolve the core, acetone?


Thanks!  Yup - acetone. That's with epoxy (polystryrene safe) resin. If, for some reason I decide to use something else (polyester, vinyl ester, etc) I would have a barrier coat and PVA release film - in which case you can break the center of the foam core out and simply peel outsides off. It's more fun watching it dissolve though! 



While we're on the subject of cooling fans - do you guys pull the hot air off your heat sinks or push cool air on them?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm blowing cool air onto the bottom of my Curtis. Don't know if that's optimal but it's working.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm blowing cool air onto the bottom of my Curtis. Don't know if that's optimal but it's working.


I think I remember that - you don't have an actual (finned) heat sink do you? Just cool air blowing right on the controller's main plate?

Ideally, I think, I heat sink should be mounted with the fins running vertically, so that natural convection will pull cool air up between them, and hot air away into the atmosphere. Since I violated that, I have been planning to make the fan a puller, so it pulls the heat away from the sink, and fresh air in from the sides.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, fan blowing right onto the flat mounting plate for the inverter. I spaced the fan about half an inch off the plate to allow airflow out the sides. If I were more ambitious I'd build some ductwork to pull cool air in from outside the car, blow across the plate, feed into the motor, and exhaust out the back, or divert into the cabin in colder weather for a little extra heat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Unbelievably, still no freakin video!  All I have even seen so far is the pic I posted here, and a sneak peek at the promo video for the event, that has a brief glimpse of me riding Scrape. If I had known it was going to be this difficult, I would have made arrangements to capture my own video (and not shared _it_ with _them_ ). I had my camera there, the whole time, but never took a pic because others with better cameras were snapping away. I was also swamped with visitors and questions the whole day.

I'm going to start testing soon, and will make sure I plan ahead to capture my own video. It's a hassle right now because this entire shop is dock height. Getting Scrape outside in the parking lot is enough of a production to discourage me from doing it for a simple, two-minute, rip across the parking lot for testing. My gig is up here in a couple months, and wherever Scrape and I end up, it should be at ground level next time - so testing and enjoyment will be on a regular basis. It's more frustrating to ride inside the shop now because I can barely crack the throttle, before I'm going way too fast for these slippery concrete floors.

More pics and video, eventually...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's a hassle right now because this entire shop is dock height.


Jump it


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Jump it


Lol! Kate, the artist who coasted Squat to the truck after the Mini Maker Faire, asked me if the bike was ready for her to ride to dinner with the crew Sunday - I told her it was charged and ready, and the only requirement was that she jump it off the dock to get it out of the building!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little more progress on the stack. I think we might do the carbon fiber lay-up tomorrow. Ironically though, I think I accidentally threw the sleeve out with the garbage!  Last year, in a mad cleaning/organizing spree to get rid of the carnage from the Mini Maker Faire thrash, I spilled an entire mug of coffee on my desk drowning my external hard drive, and losing 5-6 _years_ of CAD work, and important files. This year, I seem to have _cleaned up_ my carbon fiber and fiberglass sleeve, along with the MMF mess. 

Since the shape is much different than I had anticipated, I can use regular cloth and hide the seam under the bottom, behind the frame. 


I tried to cut the bead for the roll in foam, but the ShopBot didn't quite get the memo from model, to programming, to running toolpath, and mangled it. I was going to get a piece or foam of plastic rod and heat-n-bend it, but was in a metal mood today, so I did it in aluminum and steel. Of course, this makes my little stack ten times heavier than it should be, but we're talking ounces, not pounds... I rolled the main section, then did a little hammering and sanding to get it to follow the foam core. Then, I cut and hammered a short piece of steel rod to finish the bottom. I used steel because I didn't have aluminum rod small enough, the stores were closed by the time I got to it, and I didn't feel like turning the .375" rod down (for a matter of ounces). It's epoxied together. Next I will fill and blend the two until there is a perfect transistion into the smaller bottom roll.












The bends are purposely different. I saw the opportunity for a little creative fun when I was shaping the foam and capitalized. The dark spot in the center of the foam is epoxy - testing to make sure it's compatible, to avoid watching the core melt away prematurely, in the middle of the lay-up!  The white is joint compound - doing a little bodywork...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've had more people inquiring about doing 3D machining on the ShopBot, potential private instruction requests for it, and I am still considering doing a class on it, so I decided to do some aluminum parts for Scrape today. I have done aluminum before, but always stopped short of a finish machined part, because of the ridiculous amount of time required. I usually used a combination of 3D and 2.5D machining, and a lot of hand finishing. Today, I attempted to take the parts to the point they would normally be, fresh off a normal CNC mill; requiring minor hand finishing to be perfectly polished or plated parts. I seriously doubt someone would pay for enough time to do this, compared to just subbing the part out to a machine shop with a real CNC mill, but I can at least answer their questions about "how long" and "how to".

The subjects were the seat pans for Scrape's new leather perches. We started working on the honey seat mount Saturday, so I decided to pick up on that and cut the pan for it, to sort out the rest of the details for the mount. This, literally, took all day but the result is pretty purty.  I cut the pocket 2.5D, then 3D roughing and finishing for the sculpted surfaces. I ran two finishing passes to get this final outcome. The first was at 0.020" stepover, with a 0.500", four-flute, ball-end, mill. The second was with the same mill, rastering perpendicular/90-degrees from the first pass, and at 0.010" stepover, but double (faster) the incredibly slow feed rates. The rough area on the right, near my Bat-T logo, was my fault - I forgot to hit it with a little spray lubricant before starting the first finishing run. It got hot and started gumming up, then melting. I had to run that operation again, for about 20% of the way to get rid of the melty build up, before starting the second finishing run. The difference in the un-cut center area is probably due to a little variance in the ShopBot table. I usually start off by milling my own spoil board to go under my work, but since these are small, and will be hand finished, I just cut them.












The leather pads will overhang the pans a bit.












In the model the edges are rolled, but it can't go there with a 0.500" ball-nose mill, and cut depth at the table surface, so I will have to do that by hand.









(my future Scrape Girl) Ladies were first, my seat pan is on the machine now...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My seat pan came off the ShopBot yesterday morning, but with only one finishing operation complete. Others needed the machine, so I waited until I saw an open slot on the calendar, which was last night. I started it a little after midnight, so it could work while I counted sheep. When I checked on it this morning, it had stopped about 80% of the way through - just a dead stop. I checked the toolpath and found out that there was a glitch that had tens of thousands of empty lines of code from that point? Like 50,000 more lines, when there were only supposed to be about 7,000 more?!?  Anyway, no harm done, as it simply stopped in its tracks because there weren't any directions from the post processor.

I reprogrammed it, clipped the new toolpath to just run the last ~8,000 lines, and before long I had this: 












It's hard to capture the shape with my flash-dependent little pocket camera, but it has the usual amount of obsessive _Todd_ detail.












Me and my Scrape Girl together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A sneak peek at what's about to happen to properly accommodate my future Scrape Girl(s). That's the actual piece of leather under the laser-engraved, poster board, test piece. As soon as the laser is free I will engrave the outlines of this on the leather, cut the perimeter, and hand it over to Brian. He's debating how far off track he's going to allow me and Scrape to take him, murmuring about things like actually stranding the leather for her hair, and grafting in Stingray leather for the body she's sprawled out on... 

This outta be good. 









The "digital Scrape Girl" came from the "pinup" section of a book of tattoo images Brian provided. She had wings and horns, which I clipped and cropped, then flipped her on her back, gave her a boob-job, titled her head so she'd be nice and comfy, and a couple hours of _Todd_ detailing... Brian will make her come to life with 3D leather embossing, dyeing, and tricks.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Words fail me! Unbelievable! Awesome unbelievable!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Words fail me! Unbelievable! Awesome unbelievable!


Well, assuming you mean that in a good way - thanks! 

Kate, the resident artist I mention occasionally, inadvertently named Digital Scrape Girl "Saucie", when she saw the art engraved on the leather. It is in Brian's hands now and he has started _bringing her to life_.

In the meantime, I started hammering my seat pan. I have it rolled already, and will now fit the metal bracket into it, then tweak it to _perfection_. The only glitch is I loaned someone here my beastly grinder, just when I need it most. Doh! 

Pics and details later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I rolled my seat pan today.











I have to grind and fit the steel bracket into the pocket on the bottom, then fine tune the curvature.











It adds another layer of sophistication.












Here's the engraved leather _pad_ for the Scrape Girl seat.











Then, after Brian did his thing. She's definitely not a twiggy model type!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I stuck Scrape on a cheap bathroom scale today, one end at a time, using a couple pieces of wood to raise the other wheel off the ground the approximate height of the unladen scale. The results:



~170lbs front wheel - 53.6%
~147lbs rear wheel - 46.4%
~317lbs total
Not too shabby for a liter-class conversion. The AGMs I have in it now weigh around 45lbs, about the average weight of the various lithium packs I have put together, _on paper_, so around the weight it would actually be. I'll add a few pounds/lose a few pounds here and there, so it should always be in that neighborhood. If I ever go to the extreme measures I have on the back burner (carbon fiber wheels, carbon brakes, titanium axles and fasteners, etc) it would be comfortably under 300lbs; maybe 275-ish.


It gained about 50lbs with the new motor and batteries.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Seat time. I am working on the honey seat mount, with a little added motivation - I may have found someone to test it!  More on her if it pans out. First the mount.

Last week Nic started working on the first part - the steel bar that fits in the tail piece. After he got it cut and fit, I hammered the end a bit.











Today, I started the slow process of manually whittling (machining) a chunk of steel into a sculptured elbow. First a pocket for the bar to fit in. This is so the load isn't carried solely by a butt weld (no pun intended ). I am also going to drill for six plug welds - gotta keep her off that spinning tire. 











Here's a peek at how it will go together before I started whittling.
























I also started fitting the steel mounting plate into the aluminum pan. It's in there, just have to fine tune the curvature of the pan, and then the shape of the plate.


Here's my design work. Some Sharpie chicken scratching on the steel. I'm having fun, just _following my nose_ on this one. It'll basically just taper out from the bar section, with many compound curves, of course. The mounting plate will be welded to it, forming a nice little pedestal for my honey.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Seat time. I am working on the honey seat mount, with a little added motivation - I may have found someone to test it!  More on her if it pans out.


YAY! 

I hope it works out for you. Just don't show her those square block cad drawings of you and your honey in your layout sketches! 

Arch and I have set a wedding date and booked a venue...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Arch and I have set a wedding date and booked a venue...


YAY!!!! for you and Arch!!!!  Congrats buddy, you deserve the best life has to offer.  I will cut a little rug on this side of the pond, in your honor (since I can't physically dance at your wedding)! 






Woodsmith said:


> YAY!
> 
> I hope it works out for you. Just don't show her those square block cad drawings of you and your honey in your layout sketches! ...


Thanks Woody! After I posted that I thought maybe I had spoken prematurely - didn't hear from her all day yesterday. She's back - actually texting her as I type this. I think we're going to meet for the first time in a few hours (met her online).

You don't think she'd appreciate my CAD depiction of her? One way to find out...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> YAY!!!! for you and Arch!!!!  Congrats buddy, you deserve the best life has to offer.  I will cut a little rug on this side of the pond, in your honor (since I can't physically dance at your wedding)!


Thank you.
It will be a great wedding, though neither of us dance.





toddshotrods said:


> You don't think she'd appreciate my CAD depiction of her? One way to find out...


Well, whatever she is like, she will look better then your cad depiction.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Well, whatever she is like, she will look better then your cad depiction.


We'll have conclusive evidence to support that, one way or the other, in two hours. Our date is set. You should get a kick out of the fact that, we're meeting for tea (her choice)!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> We'll have conclusive evidence to support that, one way or the other, in two hours. Our date is set. You should get a kick out of the fact that, we're meeting for tea (her choice)!





At the weekend a mutual friend described our (Arch and I, not me and you ) relationship as having a 'Glass Slipper' moment (as in the Prince finding Cinderella's glass slipper and knowing she was the one). 
Our glass slipper being Arch finding that I kept an electric tractor in the hallway and we were both quite happy about that.

I hope it goes well for you, and you both have a glass slipper moment somewhere along the line.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Our glass slipper being Arch finding that I kept an electric tractor in the hallway...


That's one helluva slipper! 

On a serious note: isn't it incredible, crazy, fantastic, how the things we do in life can play out in the big picture? Who would ever have thought that building an EV tractor from scratch (when you had no real need for a tractor) could help pave the way to true love? Awesome!






Woodsmith said:


> ...I hope it goes well for you, and you both have a glass slipper moment somewhere along the line.


Thanks buddy. We've had some really great text conversations. It already feels like we've known each other for some time (in a good way).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Carnage.











I forgot to take pics of the piece fresh off the manual mill.  I really just used it to hog out a bunch of metal, to pave the way for some good ol' fashioned hand sculpting work, with my little beastie (right-angle grinder). Process underway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More progress on the honey seat. I cut the mounting plate for the seat pan, milled a slot in it, and rolled it slightly to fit the contour of the pan. The slot is to plug weld it from the top.











I'll smooth it out, from here, with sanding drums and grinding stones on the small rotary tool.











It will also be welded around the bottom and blended; and tapered to flow seamlessly into the aluminum pan.











On the bike. I sat on it and bent the rider pan mount, because it's not ready for weight yet.  It felt nice though. This sets the stage for the next step in Scrape's evolution. I like it, and want it to be a permanent part of the bike, but not how it sits on the bike currently. I have the (design) solution sorting out, and should be able to post about that tomorrow (later today actually). It brings together a few different elements I have been trying to sort out...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple things have been simmering on the back burner, as I sort out details, and work on tying everything together into a comprehensive package; not the least of which is determining my next phase, and Scrape's role in it, as I wind down my time in the community workshop.

I decided long ago, soon after learning about it, that I wanted a Raspberry Pi-based on-board computer system. I was trying to find a suitable interface, and eventually discovered that you can use a smartphone or tablet as an interface. So, yesterday, I purchased a cheap, 7", Android tablet. I had more cheap Chinese gauges in my eBay cart, but couldn't get myself to pull the trigger on them. This will delay having gauges a bit, while I sort out communication from the power electronics, to Pi, to Android, but it is the look and feel I want.

Simultaneously, I have been trying to establish a _super-techy_ theme. The first move in that direction was the exposed drivetrain layout, then the borg-style headlight plan. The work on the passenger seat picks up on this, and elevates the concept. Think human-ish muscle, cartilage, and bones, rendered in metals.

Add to all that, the fact that I have been trying to change my riding position, without killing the organic musclebike feel, created by the body, for quite a while; but nothing worked. One of the first apps I downloaded on the tablet was SketchBook Pro, finally allowing me to make my entire design process completely digital - and it happened. I was doing this a little on my iPhone, but the tiny screen hindered any serious creative flow. First attempt, I digitally chicken-scratched my way into the next evolution of Scrape 1.x. It's based on the current frame with a new backbone and space frame structure, a shortened and "puffed" body (with the same basic organic feminine curvature and new side "windows"), the seats pushed forward, and the clip-ons dropped, so that the riding position is more extreme sportbike than dragbike. I enhanced it in Photoshop a bit, to try to help you see what I see in my scratching. I like chicken scratch sketching because, in the maze of lines, my mind tunes into the ones it is seeking.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> We'll have conclusive evidence to support that, one way or the other, in two hours. Our date is set. You should get a kick out of the fact that, we're meeting for tea (her choice)!




Well, how was tea?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

esoneson said:


> Well, how was tea?


Oh that?!  The tea was really good, I had one that was kind of coffee-ish, and right up my alley.

Oh wait, maybe you mean how was "_tea_", as in the date? She was pretty awesome, it was the perfect place (her choice - she said that it had to be perfect, and was), very comfortable, very relaxed, lasted about 2-1/2 hours, conversation was excellent and enjoyable, and it ended with a big long "more than just a friend" hug.

Beyond that, my years and experiences mean I am pretty reserved about it and taking things day by day - we have talked every day, quite a bit, since then.  Instead of really looking forward, trying to anticipate where it might be headed in the future, I am simply making the most of what's happening in the right now.

I know, I'm boring... 

Thanks for asking.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Pleased for you Todd! 

Bike looks good also. It doesn't look that different from it's current incarnation though, or am I wrong? Have you got a side by side or overlay?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Pleased for you Todd!...


Thank Tyler.  I'm still reserving judgement. We said "hi" so far today, but I get the feeling that she's experiencing a bit of sensory overload; so I am giving her a little space to sort it out (not uncommon in our days-old _relationship_, and she usually comes back pretty strongly). I can be a little spicy at times. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Bike looks good also. It doesn't look that different from it's current incarnation though, or am I wrong? Have you got a side by side or overlay?


Thank you, that's actually a complement - means I accomplished my goal - effected a major change without disturbing its essence.

As you wish:









Keep in mind the sketch is just that - a rough sketch to help me sort out an idea in my head; so the proportions and dimensions are skewed in areas - plus, I had to twist it and stretch it to correspond with the pic. For example; the seats are too low - easy fix.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Are you going to build a new frame then? You said monocoque also, what will be?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Are you going to build a new frame then? You said monocoque also, what will be?


Space frame, not monocoque. Space frame being a maze of tubular steel sections welded into a truss style frame - think Ducatis and older Lambos.


Current status: Nic and I started working on it today (pics later or tomorrow). I removed the old foot peg assemblies and he started fabricating some of the new frame sections. I discovered that I don't have to make a new frame, or even seriously modify the existing frame, to accomplish this. It will just require some minor modifications, and should make a huge difference.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The process is underway - or - the reaction I've been getting around the community workshop - why did you do that! 









It's so much cleaner without the footpeg brackets. I am working on putting it all back together now, and trying to see how much weight I can shave in the process. That means the heavy steel post and mount that held the seat will probably be replaced with aluminum. I might keep the passenger seat as is, because it can be removed for speed feats.



I'm sticking with steel on the foot pegs, for strength. These are the nuts that clamp the aluminum plates (which will be trimmed down into small "teardrops") on the outsides of the swingarm pivot. I turned them a bit, then turned the ends of a piece of steel tubing for a nice interference fit. They're tacked welded, split into two pegs, and on the bike now. They'll serve dual duty as pegs and frame sliders.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the seat pushed forward into what was once the body's domain, I also hacked the rear third of the body out last night, and created a poster board template (white shape) for what I have affectionately dubbed the new "body bump" ; which I modeled today (mesh shape).











I'm going to cut this today, and graft it into the front section of the body. I decided that I wanted to highlight the frame a bit more, even more so than the previous version, so the body will simply be a cap over the top of the frame. It does have a purpose though - the body is actually the speaker housing for the sound system. The woofer goes in the "bump", and there will be two pivoting tweeters in the front. That was always a part of the plan, that hasn't been mentioned much lately.










Foam sculpting and more pics later today...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting shape


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting shape


I have no idea what you mean.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nic and I were discussing whether this revision should be dubbed Scrape 1.2 or 2.0. In TPD nomenclature, the digit to the left of the decimal point denotes the first version, and then successive major revisions; like a new frame and layout, completely different aesthetic appearance, etc. The digits to the right of the decimal point indicate notable upgrades. For example, the new motor and battery setup created Scrape 1.1.

This is going to be a pretty radical change. Previously, when I talked about Scrape 2.x it was based on a new, proprietary, frame. The look of the bike is about to change enough that this might warrant a 2.0 label. Here's the new body bump grafted into the old body.










And a shot of the whole bike, with the leather pad in place. I started on this revision with the intention of having the honey seat permanently attached to fill the gap between the rider seat and rear tire, but the more I look at this the more I like it, as it is. It's streetfighter style like this - one seat, with the rear wheel kind of floating by itself. I also have a perfect place to mount the honey seat, when it's not in use - on the frame, under the rider seat. I am still thinking through all this though.









There are a lot of to-do items that have to be checked off to make this work like I see it in my head. The handlebars are going down to pretty extreme sportbike territory, and there will be a tiny quarter fairing with new dual headlights, and the tablet mount. I made the body bump this narrow for a few reasons. One I didn't want a huge lump sticking up that high. Two, I hope it will be obvious that it's not a fuel tank. Three, I like how narrow Scrape is, and decided to run with it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The body bump is fully spray-foamed in - carving and blending starts today. In the meantime, I have been toying with the idea of building my own, beefier, more _artsy_, clip-ons. After a few days of thought, staring at _foundation_ curves in Rhino, consulting with Gary (who owns the new monster lathe), and finally modeling the clamp section in Pro/E..... I am thinking about just buying a pair of clip-ons! 









This is just the clamp section. The actual bar mount would be cut from the factory Ninja clip-ons and welded to this. I could machine it all from a single block, but there wouldn't be much difference, and a properly executed weld is stronger than the base materials it joins. I didn't model the counterbores because this isn't a CNC-bound model - it's just for visualizing the concept, and developing technical drawings, to help communicate it. To realize it, I would probably turn the center bore on the lathe, cut the profile on the ShopBot, and manually machine the clamping bolt holes and counterbores. CIF actually just purchased a pretty large, 3-axis, CNC mill but they don't have software yet, so cutting them on it wouldn't be likely, in the time I need them. I would revisit the model and do some _Todd-style_ sculpturing if so.

As it is, the point is it's a much more substantial clamp than normally found on aftermarket clip-ons. It would also be machined from 6061 billet, so would be much stronger than the typical cast factory parts, that are more commonly this beefy. It would also be aesthetically much more interesting than either the aftermarket or factory bars.

I'm trying to talk myself into it.  So easy to just click Buy It Now and be done with the whole issue...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just booked time on the ShopBot to cut the foam core for this tomorrow. The darker gray surfaces will be carbon fiber, the lighter gray aluminum. What's missing here is the mechanical, aluminum stuff. The modeled, machined, turned, fabricated, metal structure that mounts the lights and tablet is the centerpiece, this is basically just a cover, an accent, to continue the body line down to the front wheel. There will be a lot of exposed metal under and around this piece. The TPD Bat-T lights won't be in it either - they were just available in the CAD shop as stand-ins...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd those lights look great, the whole design is smart! Did you ever get the lights made and working?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd those lights look great, the whole design is smart! Did you ever get the lights made and working?


Thanks, but you missed this part:


toddshotrods said:


> ...The TPD Bat-T lights won't be in it either - they were just available in the CAD shop as stand-ins...


I doesn't work yet. I did get it to put a decent pattern on the floor, but it still needs fine-tuning, and a vertical cutoff designed and implemented. I stopped pursuing this light for Scrape with the new performance goals, because I need better light than my backyard engineering will provide.

I am bouncing the Bat-T headlight, and all its plans, to Squat - perfect fit there. 


I cut the foam cores yesterday and today, and Nic and I trimmed and bonded most of them together today. One more piece to fit, and pics coming soon. It looks awesome, and really adds something to Scrape...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We're making progress in getting Scrape back in action, and working on the message and storyboard for a new TPD promo video - featuring Scrape in action. In the meantime, here's a cell phone pic Curt snapped of me trying out the new seating position for the first time. The bars still have to go down, and I am carefully balancing myself here, because the lower seat mounts are just resting on the frame - one wrong move and they slip off the tube, and I mangle my carefully hammered seat pan!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I must say that looks excellent Todd, bit like a Ducati Diavel or V-max scaled down and great with the wheel hanging out back and that tidy faring.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I must say that looks excellent Todd, bit like a Ducati Diavel or V-max scaled down and great with the wheel hanging out back and that tidy faring.


Thanks Tyler, and I take that as a huge compliment - Ducati is Ferrari on two wheels!

And on the subject of the Diavel, the guy who did my seat pads wants to do a leather tool bag (his idea), and my idea was to make it serve double duty as the license plate bracket, then I showed him a couple pics of the Diavel to explain how it would work on the bike.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Absolutely huge compliment Todd! Fully deserved. I love the leather tool bag also. Has to be done. Whereabouts you thinking it will go? I thought the license plate would fit under your seat nicely and a small bag there might be the ticket...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Absolutely huge compliment Todd! Fully deserved...








tylerwatts said:


> ... I love the leather tool bag also. Has to be done. Whereabouts you thinking it will go? I thought the license plate would fit under your seat nicely and a small bag there might be the ticket...


Thanks again! I'm going to try the behind the wheel thing the Diavel does. The bracket (and bag and plate) would attach with quick release pins, so that it's only on the bike for street usage. All other times the bike would be a clean race bike.










Today, I was working on the seat mounts again, but other to-do crap took up most of my day, so I didn't expect to get far with it. Alex (CIF owner) popped by my studio and informed me that a group of school kids were coming. It's an advanced school, some of the graduates from which are currently working in Silicon Valley, some have made big bucks, some hold patents, etc. He asked if the bike was ready for a demo ride. I pushed through and got the seat mount secure enough to get back in the saddle, for the kids.

Fringe benefit: Scrape feels awesome now! Much, much, better. I can't wait to get the bars down where I want them. I will have much better control.

First failure: My automotive starter solenoid finally had enough of maintaining a constant 48v connection and gave up in the middle of my ride for the kiddos.  I hot wired the solenoid and finished my demo duties, and did a little extra _research_ (riding) afterwards.

My mission, and I choose to accept it: replace the solenoid with something rated for constant duty. I'm thinking about trying a headlight relay. It just allows me to trigger my contactor from the low amperage, 12v, handlebar switch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have another 12v solenoid en route. The one I had was an, intermittent duty, Ford starter solenoid. The one I purchased to replace it is another 12v solenoid, but is rated for continuous duty, 150A continuous/300A in-rush current. It's claimed to have silver alloy contacts, instead of copper, to give it the higher current handling capability. JRP3 and Woodsmith both told me they haven't had any problems using 12v switches to trigger the coil and open their 48v contactors, so this should do the trick. It allows me to keep the main power-up/power-down interface in the right switch cluster - convenient for normal usage, and perfect for a first response in an emergency situation. I plan to use the old clutch lever (left side switch cluster) to open a physical disconnect, via cable.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I purchased ZX6 clip-on (clamp) mounts to get the bars down. They were from two different sellers on eBay. One arrived Thursday, ahead of schedule. The other one was scheduled for delivery, and updated to "out for Delivery", Saturday. I guarded the entrance where mail and small package deliveries happen like a K9 unit, from around 10am until after 6pm - no delivery, not even the regular mail.  The status was still "Out for Delivery" all evening, then switched to "Delivery status not updated" around 11:30pm.

USPS sucks. This is the third time in the past year that I haven't received a package that was supposedly on the truck to be delivered. One was lost for a week, then magically just got delivered - no explanation. The Post Office branch that distributes and holds the packages for here is basically inaccessible for personal pick-up - even if it's their fault it wasn't delivered. I'm going to start asking people to ship UPS or FedEx, even if it costs me more. I always ship things I sell UPS. In my experience, their tracking is better, service is better, etc. I guess you don't have to try as hard when taxpayers are footing part of the bill...

Rant over - Scrape feels so awesome now! I spent part of my time waiting riding Scrape around in that unit of the Idea Foundry. I was practicing slow speed control and maneuvering, trying to get used to the weight distribution. It's split pretty evenly, front to rear, but is much lower in the chassis. The electric torque curve is creamy smooth, allowing me to apply subtle nudges to blatant snaps with incredible precision. I think my Honda TPS helps here. I have the throttle rate set to the most aggressive profile Alltrax offers, so it comes on really fast, but I can modulate that down to barely perceptible forward movement. Over time, as I get acclimated to that, it will create the sensation of the bike reading and realizing my thoughts.

The one thing I do need is a steering damper. Because of the low weight distribution and approximate 23-degree rake, it turns way too easy - even at a standstill, with my weight on the bars. Also, need to design and cut new triple clamps for more reasonable trail. I was waiting to ride it more, and get a feel for the bike.

Tomorrow, the other clip-on mount, and the new solenoid, should be here and I can resume testing. A parking lot romp is in the cards soon. I will have my phone's GPS on this time to see how fast I'm going, and will not go out there unless I have someone shooting video - that will actually let me have the video!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Borrow their phone for the GPS and have them use your phone for the video. That way you're sure to get it. 

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Borrow their phone for the GPS and have them use your phone for the video. That way you're sure to get it.
> 
> Bill


Lol, nice idea - the only problem is I buy vehicle parts, and electronic stuff, instead of updating my phone, so the video that would be shot with my old, half-dead, 3GS would be confined to the "small screen" - literally. 


I forgot to touch on a point in the last drivel, I mean post:

This thing should be an awesome drift and stunt bike now. Before in the dragbike riding position the sensation of when the back started stepping out, and how far, was delayed and a bit muted. Understandable, because in straight line acceleration I just wanted to know when it was getting too far out of line. A minor swing to the side was inconsequential, and best pretty much unnoticed, so I could concentrate on other things.

Now, I can sense the very instant it starts to step out, and have a real good feel for where it is. The dusty, high gloss, floor in the middle section of the community workshop is idea because it's like being on ice. I was swinging the back from side to side, stepping it out coming out of corners, using power oversteer to help turn in tight spaces, and using power oversteer with my left foot sliding on the floor, dirt bike style, to lean in deep and pivot the bike around a point in _tight righties_. With the low center of gravity/low large mass concentration, it's easy to lean it where I want it, hold it there, and use power and brakes to move the bike around.

Incredibly controllable.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally - I have parts! USPS is so screwed up. This morning tracking for the clip-on mount still showed "Delivery status not updated", and the solenoid "Departed (Columbus) sorting facility". Then, as I started my guard dog duty, the solenoid's tracking updated to "Delivered"! I checked every entrance and with everyone here - no package! I was actually in the process of getting the tracking numbers on screen on my tablet, and had the responsible branch phone number cued up and ready to dial, when the little minivan pulls up and he has both packages in hand.

It was a different guy, and I'm kind of thinking he was enhancing his records because he kept trying to explain to me what could have happened with both packages - until I showed him the actual tracking records in the tablet app. I thought they had both been delivered to the wrong address - a common problem here. I sent him on his way with a stack (literally) of mail that had been delivered here, but belongs to someone else, somewhere else.

I'm only here for another month, but if I buy anything else it comes UPS/FedEx. Anyway, the clip-on mounts and solenoid - installation in a bit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I asked Nic to shoot a bit of video, with my Nikon pocket camera, of me playing with Scrape. Not much to see, but at least it's finally something with it moving...  Clip-ons lowered and the new solenoid installed, so I'm giving it a test _spin_.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Awesome


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Awesome


Thanks!  In addition to the real, official, professional, promo video we're preparing to shoot, I will try to keep shooting these _quickies_ as the testing and development proceeds. Gotta get a GoPro.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A few mediocre pics to give you an idea how the new aesthetic came together. It's dark and cold in the Idea Foundry, and my camera doesn't like it - so rather than freeze in the name of art, I retreated to my warm cave (office) to share these fuzzy memories.  I'll get some good pics when I finally get it outside.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I stuck Scrape on a cheap bathroom scale... ...The results:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The one thing I meant to do (but forgot), before I ripped Scrape apart, was weigh it again. I was a little suspicious of the first numbers because we were ramming it up onto the scale and blocks. He was also relaying the readings to me, as I steadied the bike, so I couldn't see if I was holding it straight enough for accurate readings.


I just weighed it, using a jack to raise and lower each end onto the scale or block, and positioned myself dead center in front of the dial. The results:



167lbs front wheel - round to 53%
150lbs rear wheel - round to 47%
317lbs total
No difference, because we were off the first time. I weighed the pieces that were removed (seat mount, remainder of one of the peg brackets, four pegs), and rounded that off to 8-10lbs lost; allowing for the missing bracket piece. So I'll call it 325lbs before, down to 317.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt and Nic have been asking, with every change, if I'm going to keep the front fender, and making it clear that they think Scrape would look better without it. Today, while getting stuff ready to pack, for some reason, I looked at Scrape and wondered myself. Before the front end was so high, especially with the old bars, that the fender was needed to visually pull it down and connect it to the front wheel. With the low-mount clip-ons, and new fairing, it's all down there anyway, so I pulled the fender to see how it would look. What do you think?


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Hmmm. I think I like it better without. It kinda looks like a big helmet over the wheel. Without out it, the look is more of the street fighter look you are striving for (or is that the other bike? I don't remember now.) I think you could get away with a fender if it was more of a minimalist one.

Bill


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah maybe a smaller one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Hmmm. I think I like it better without. It kinda looks like a big helmet over the wheel. Without out it, the look is more of the street fighter look you are striving for (or is that the other bike? I don't remember now.) I think you could get away with a fender if it was more of a minimalist one.
> 
> Bill





JRP3 said:


> Yeah maybe a smaller one.


Thanks guys.  I think I am going to leave it off for a while and see how much I like it later. The headlights are going to fill most of the gap between the fairing and tire, and I might try a little carbon fiber splitter under the lights...

Bill, yes, streetfighter for Scrape too. Both bikes are now streetfighter style.






dedlast said:


> ...looks like a big helmet...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

No fender vote here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> No fender vote here.


Lol, I think I'm the only person on the planet that liked my big fender. I also think I'm over it now - the more I look at it without, the more I like it. 

Thanks David.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I will vote for the fender, but with some mods.

In the second side elevation image the 'tank' and headlight area, along with the frame tubes emerging from beneath the 'tank', make it look like a rampaging baby animal, a calf or a lamb!
If the fender also reflected some of the 'feel' of that shape, to tie it in more with the headlight area, so it looks as one whole and complete shape maybe.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with Woodsmith Todd. I'm thinking along the lines of minimalist Ducati fenders that are almost skeletal and leave a view of the wheels and structures but pull things together like Woodsmith says. 

May I say also, the dirty cemented wheels throw the look off alot and would look much better if they were cleaner/blacker. Have you got a spray bottle with water in to just wet the dust when you move the bike for pictures? Up to you, not meaning to be finicky, just hoping to help. Probably alot clearer in person anyway


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I will vote for the fender, but with some mods.
> 
> In the second side elevation image the 'tank' and headlight area, along with the frame tubes emerging from beneath the 'tank', make it look like a rampaging baby animal, a calf or a lamb!
> If the fender also reflected some of the 'feel' of that shape, to tie it in more with the headlight area, so it looks as one whole and complete shape maybe.





tylerwatts said:


> I agree with Woodsmith Todd. I'm thinking along the lines of minimalist Ducati fenders that are almost skeletal and leave a view of the wheels and structures but pull things together like Woodsmith says...


Thanks for the feedback guys, it's appreciated and noted.  I'm going to leave it as is (off), until the headlights are in place, then figure out how to finish it. The splitter I mentioned is to do just what you guys are talking about - finish the shape/pull it all together - possibly without an actual fender; maybe...







tylerwatts said:


> ...May I say also, the dirty cemented wheels throw the look off alot and would look much better if they were cleaner/blacker. Have you got a spray bottle with water in to just wet the dust when you move the bike for pictures? Up to you, not meaning to be finicky, just hoping to help. Probably alot clearer in person anyway...


That, my friend, is dirt. The reason I can so effortlessly drift and do burnouts in such a tight area, with minimal throttle input, is most of the floors NEVER get swept, none of the community shop floors have ever been mopped!  The woodshop gets swept, occasionally, or they'd be in a foot of compost by now. The welding area, where I took that picture, is beyond disgusting. When you sweep you just clear off the upper layers - it would literally take clearing the area and hosing and scrubbing it to get that floor clean.

Soooo, for me to make my tires even look clean would take a lot of effort, and discourage me for taking those random snapshots. That dirt would laugh at mere water, and a wet rag or brush would just smear it around, and make it look much worse.

My studio floors, by the way, are almost always swept and occasionally mopped... I expect even better in the next/new location. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...make it look like a rampaging baby animal, a calf or a lamb!...


Another person here, saw bison (because of the hump, new profile, and before the fender was removed). I kind of liked that one, because not many people would pick with a bison; and caution is advised with any "rampaging" animal!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, mentioning your splitter leads me to the BMW GS front 'beak' design. Something like this concept but with proper Todd flare would work great and probably negate the need for the fender. Also leave a cleaner flow of lines and look good. I look forward to seeing the lights in place.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, mentioning your splitter leads me to the BMW GS front 'beak' design. Something like this concept but with proper Todd flare would work great and probably negate the need for the fender. Also leave a cleaner flow of lines and look good. I look forward to seeing the lights in place.


I thought I had replied to this post. A bit more subtle, but the fenderless/splitter concept is a go. The more I look at Scrape the more I like it - that fender is toast. I really like the streetfighter look, and have always liked fenderless bikes; be it a chopper, bobber, or streetfighter. It's raw, elemental, mechanical - pure machine.

The new profile is the key, because I hated Scrape without the fender before - looked like a giant dirt bike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While waiting for USPS to bring Squat's billet aluminum this morning, I worked on Scrape, to take my mind off the cold and (postal) incompetence. The first thing I did, I can't show yet; I added a couple layers of carbon fiber to the inside of the foam body buck where it mounts on the frame, and wraps around the seat. It's a big lumpy mess right now because foam and joint compound wouldn't survive the real shape I have in mind. It's going to taper down at the ends of the forked section, and have some interesting detail in it. The carbon fiber will let me develop that, after it's fully cured.


Then, I started working on the right side motor mount - to make Tyler happy!  I made a rough poster board pattern, then translated that into CAD. It will be aluminum, but I haven't decided exactly how it will be machined yet. The little hump on the back side is for the clamp bolt - it will lightly squeeze the center section of the CE cap.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still tidying up things on Scrape. There was a bunch of crap under the back of the frame for mounting the old ICE that wasn't needed, and part of the former steel electric motor mount that wasn't necessary. The hold up on getting rid of all this extra steel was two, new, shorter, motor mount bolts - that I just couldn't remember to get when I was in Lowe's. I finally grabbed them yesterday, while running errands, so today I did the cleanup work. I'm also working on quieting it down, and found out the kickstand was touching the chain - a couple little pops with the MIG made a stop to keep it away from the chain - much better. I'm going to run a brace from the shock linkage frame mount to the battery box to help reinforce and stiffen the chassis.










The biggest piece came off on this side. Combined with removing the old electric motor mount piece, I shaved a few pounds today. The little linkage bar on the brake pushrod is a temporary stand-in, until I can remember to buy a die to thread the pushrod, and shorten it. The rear brakes, like the front, are complete overkill for this lightweight bike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little Photoshop of a rear-three-quarter view pic for a temporary header pic on the website.









This weekend, I am meeting an artist to give her my story, and so she can take some pics of Scrape. She was commissioned by the local Motorcycle Hall of Fame to do a painting of Scrape and I for a motorcycle art exhibit the curator has going. Pretty cool.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very cool! Hope it goes well. How's the new life and move etc looking?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very cool! Hope it goes well. How's the new life and move etc looking?


Hey Tyler! Thanks, and thanks for asking; things are going well overall, the normal up and downs of life. The physical move was exhausting, but it's finally over. The mental aspect was also exhausting, but my friends here have gone over and above their call of duty to smooth that out. Then, just as I was getting settled, my dog died, unexpectedly. He had a groin pull that he was making good progress in healing from but out of the blue Tuesday night he had a massive heart attack or seizure or something that took his life. 11 years - we were the best of friends, inseparable companions. I have the memories, and a little peace in the fact that he won't suffer through old age. Again, my friends here went over and above to make sure even that was the least painful experience it could be. Between the community workshop's message board, and FB, it's absolutely amazing to see how many lives he touched, and all the good things people had to say about him - that has kept a perpetual smile on my face since Tuesday evening.

Overall though, I am doing great, feeling encouraged, and peaceful, and ready to get down to business. 



The moral of the story: it's not how long you're here, it's what you do with the time you have. You can measure that, in part, by the story you're leaving people to tell about you when you're gone. Time to get back to work on making mine an awesome story...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your buddy, Todd. I grew up in a house full of dogs and cats so I have an idea of how it feels to lose one. Very glad to hear you have a bunch of good people to stand by you during the trials.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Sorry to hear about your buddy, Todd. I grew up in a house full of dogs and cats so I have an idea of how it feels to lose one. Very glad to hear you have a bunch of good people to stand by you during the trials.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill.  I am actually not an emotional person but losing a dog after a decade or more of faithful companionship is a tough pill to swallow - and those human friends in times like these are worth their weight in gold. Ruefus was, hands-down, the best dog I have ever had, and definitely the epitome of "man's best friend".

Despite all of my frustration with the culture of Columbus, the one thing I have to give its people credit for is loyalty and willingness to step out of their comfort zones, for people they consider to be friends. Through this entire move, and especially with the death of my dog, I found I had more and better friends here than I realized. I'm kind of _cool to the touch_, a little abrasive, and very uncompromising, so they've been just kind of laid-back, staying out of my way - but when they sensed a need they were there, in force.

Humbling...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your dog. Mine's 13, and you just never know how long they'll make it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog. Mine's 13, and you just never know how long they'll make it.


Thanks.  You're right. He was so healthy previously, I thought 4-5 more years was certain...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am really sorry to hear about your dog, Todd.

My Barney died 15 years ago, and Molly died 4 years ago. I still miss them both very much.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am really sorry to hear about your dog, Todd.
> 
> My Barney died 15 years ago, and Molly died 4 years ago. I still miss them both very much.


Thanks Woody.  There's nothing like them. Ruefus was my last dog, for the foreseeable future. My plans have always been to start traveling more, after he died - just didn't expect it to be so soon.

Hopefully, I'll make across the pond to visit you someday...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Woody.  There's nothing like them. Ruefus was my last dog, for the foreseeable future. My plans have always been to start traveling more, after he died - just didn't expect it to be so soon.
> 
> Hopefully, I'll make across the pond to visit you someday...


You would be very welcome here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We did the meet-and-shoot for the Hall of Fame art today. It went really well, and I cannot wait to see what she sees and paints! 

The one snafu is I meant to give Nic my camera and have him shoot some pics of her shooting pics of me on Scrape - I forgot.  I noticed him taking pics, out of the corner of my eye, and assumed that he had brought his own camera, but he was just using his cell phone. It's not even a smartphone, and he said it takes really crappy pics, so I might not have anything to share until the art is done. She is going to share pics of the process/progress along the way, but I'm guessing she doesn't want those out in public. If I'm wrong, I will share.

I explained to her what the purpose of the bike was, and answered a few questions about some of the components and how it works. Individual components, like the battery box, and the controller fan, stuck out to her and she snapped close-ups of them, so it will be interesting to see how she makes them pop out in the art (assuming that's the intention). That plays right into my goal of artistically displaying function...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds great Todd! Can't wait for the results. Any new things happening on scrape?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds great Todd! Can't wait for the results...


Thanks Tyler. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Any new things happening on scrape?


Not yet. I'm still getting settled from the big move, and still trying to wrap my head around The Inhaler being back in the mix. I'm mentally toying with idea of Scrape being firmly oriented towards performance (engineering), while The Inhaler goes full-throttle towards art (design). I haven't figured out how that works with resource allocation though. That is dependent on how I move forward with the business, and what I need more to make it happen (form or function). Then, there's the transportation issue. I can go as simple as sticking a hitch on my beloved Saturn, with a wheel dollie, and pull Scrape anywhere any time. The Inhaler really needs a tow vehicle and trailer or dolly. TBD... 


So, I suppose the next thing will be to tear the front down and re-weld the fork slider, to get it ready for testing when the weather breaks. I'm curious to know how fast it will go at 48 volts. I'll probably stuff another battery in somewhere to get up to 60 volts (controller max), to compensate for sag, and see... The math says around 72 mph, with the current gearing 4.7:1. If I bump up the front sprocket, to 12T, I would be at 86mph. That's all with spending very little, and it establishes a baseline for future efforts, and gives me a nice angle on pushing for sponsorship - _"if I was able to do this with lead, and an Alltrax, think what I can do with your so-and-so..."_


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That is sounding cool. Makes sense to give each project a clear focus and separate them a little. They should run more free and true to your vision. 

Might I hesitate against dragging scrape around. Have you seen the carriers mx guys fit on the rear of cars that carry the bike across the tail of the vehicle. I'd encourage you to use one like this, build I yourself so it is strong, and fit a support under the car that bolts to the chassis for strength and countering the bending loads on the tow bar mount points on the chassis, but scrape is light and small so this should work. Only a day's work to build and much better for scrape than dragging its tail around. Remember it won't lean behind the car like when riding and the frame and swingarm are not designed for that kind of torsional loading! It can easily twist a swingarm or frame stem or fork bodies! 

Just my 2c


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That is sounding cool. Makes sense to give each project a clear focus and separate them a little. They should run more free and true to your vision...


Thanks.  The more I think about it, the more I like that plan. It's probably where I'm going with them. I've been pretty much focused on functionality and performance with Scrape since the beginning, and it just feels natural for the project. I add my _Todd_ touches, here and there (body, fairing, seat, etc), but for the most part it is always about making it do what it does better. I love the simple old Ninja suspension, and those four-piston ZX6 front brakes feel like F1 technology on this lightweight of a bike. I wouldn't touch that stuff for any aesthetic in the world - only upgrade it for even better performance and feel. Like I said it just kind leans and pulls me towards performance.








tylerwatts said:


> ...Might I hesitate against dragging scrape around...
> 
> ...Remember it won't lean behind the car like when riding and the frame and swingarm are not designed for that kind of torsional loading! It can easily twist a swingarm or frame stem or fork bodies!
> 
> Just my 2c


I hear you. The biggest reason I haven't implemented that tow setup yet is I have never been that comfortable with it. I'm not so sure there would be enough torsional loading to twist anything, because there wouldn't be much stiction in that narrow rear contact patch to overcome. What would likely happen it is would wear the rear tire prematurely from sliding it around. That, combined with the fact that (with this DC motor) I would have to remove the chain every time I tow it, gives me pause.

What I was after was a really portable setup that I don't need a lot of space to store. A simple wheel dolly that plugs into the hitch is the most compact solution. Pop it in the trunk when I reach my destination and no worries...

Then, I thought about fabricating a small rear wheel dolly, like the tow trucks use when they have to tow an automatic transmission car with the drive wheels on the ground. Pop the front wheel in the dolly, lock it, set up and crank the little rear wheel dolly, raising the rear wheel off the ground - tow away. Carefully designed, both could still fit in the trunk. With narrow scooter tires, the rear dolly wheels, could still offer low stiction (especially narrow tires run at max pressure), and be much cheaper to replace than the sticky sport/race tires I am and will be running on Scrape. And, no chain removal necessary.

I also thought about the fact that I could (at least in theory) add a collapsible center beam to that little rear wheel dolly, that attaches to the front wheel dolly, and pivots at the same point as the steering head, and register that little setup as a trailer - even though it would have the compactness of a couple wheel dollies.

Then, I thought about how much work all this is, and nothing got done! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Have you seen the carriers mx guys fit on the rear of cars that carry the bike across the tail of the vehicle. I'd encourage you to use one like this, build I yourself so it is strong, and fit a support under the car that bolts to the chassis for strength and countering the bending loads on the tow bar mount points on the chassis, but scrape is light and small so this should work. Only a day's work to build and much better for scrape than dragging its tail around...


Even though though Scrape is pretty light, at 300lbs, it's too much to hang off the back of a Saturn sedan - the issue is handling with a gorilla hanging on the back of the car. It creates conditions like snap oversteer, loss of traction with the front drive wheels, loss of braking due to heavily shifted weight balance, etc. On a wet road, with 95hp, I can spin the front tires (a no-no in a Saturn because it can spit a pin in the diff and destroy it). With Scrape hanging back there I probably wouldn't be able to start from a stop on a wet, asphalt, grade. Also, at 2350lbs, on the highway, side gusts move me. It's not dangerous, but it requires more attention to stay centered in your lane than heavier cars, on really windy days. With that ballast on the back, at 65mph, if it the rear started to step out, and the front was struggling for traction -it could be one helluva ride! 




I saw a pic recently that I meant to save, and forgot, of a Honda CRX with what appeared to be a mid-sized sportbike hunkered down - on its roof!!!  My first though was that's pretty cool. Then, as I considered it, I imagined even Scrape's 300lbs being overhead on a 2350lb car (that CRX is even lighter). Hang on Scrape!!!! Whooaaaaaaa! 







tylerwatts said:


> ...Only a day's work to build...


Luckily, I have been doing this stuff long enough to know that almost never happens. A week or two, a few busted knuckles, and many extra dollars, later...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm always over optimistic... 

Have you ever seen the folding motorcycle trailers I think built for recovery vehicles? That might be a good ready made solution, just a bit heavy loading into the boot (trunk...) and a bit more space hungry.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I'm always over optimistic...


By nature, I am too. I start there, but then weigh things against experience and whatever knowledge I find - then, reality smacks me in the back of the head, and says, "get serious!" 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Have you ever seen the folding motorcycle trailers I think built for recovery vehicles? That might be a good ready made solution, just a bit heavy loading into the boot (trunk...) and a bit more space hungry.


If not exactly, I've seen something like it. If it's heavy and takes up too much space, I would be reluctant to use it, so my challenge is to see if I can find something that meets my ridiculous demands.

The _normal_ solution is to buy a truck or van to haul the bike, and simultaneously pull the Inhaler. I just hate that option because it means I would be burning more gas on a daily basis, to occasionally haul my electric vehicles.  I like urban life (actually want to move deeper into the city, and then into a bigger city someday) so having more vehicles is 180-degrees in the wrong direction. The fact that I can fit the Inhaler and Scrape, and all my tools in a 10x10ft storage unit, make them make sense. They are a couple blocks from downtown, and costing me less each month than many people spend eating out in a week. If I can find a transportation solution, I have a really nice plan developing...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

How about an electric van?! One more project for you Todd haha. Purely a mechanical conversion, no flare or art allowed. Bolt in an 11" and Soliton and a medium battery pack. I guess you need the range an ice offers and that would cost too much in batteries and weight.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> The _normal_ solution is to buy a truck or van to haul the bike, and simultaneously pull the Inhaler. I just hate that option because it means I would be burning more gas on a daily basis, to occasionally haul my electric vehicles.


There is always the rental option for that occasional haul. U-haul rents vans and pickups for (I think) 20 bucks a day, not sure how much mileage is allowed. You might be able to find something else locally, too.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> How about an electric van?! One more project for you Todd haha. Purely a mechanical conversion, no flare or art allowed. Bolt in an 11" and Soliton and a medium battery pack. I guess you need the range an ice offers and that would cost too much in batteries and weight.


Yeah, I need range, and the further I look out into future plans, the more of it I need. I eventually want to travel - a lot. I wouldn't even mind planning road trips to include lots of charging time, but we're a long way out from that being a practical reality. The cost would also be prohibitive, because I would need a good Level II system, J1772, etc; and, as you mentioned, a ton of batteries.





dedlast said:


> There is always the rental option for that occasional haul. U-haul rents vans and pickups for (I think) 20 bucks a day, not sure how much mileage is allowed. You might be able to find something else locally, too.
> 
> Bill


That's the short-term plan for the Inhaler, for sure. I bummed a trailer, and another friend with a pickup, to get it from CIF to the storage facility. Honestly, development will be slow, and the infrequent need to move it around definitely makes renting, borrowing, or bumming, a better option for it.

However, while I purposely want to keep the Inhaler kind of fresh with limited exposure, I want Scrape to be my little media whore, and marketing workhorse. That means the easier I can get it from here to there, the more effective it is.

I'm not sure how practical it is for a race bike, but I am going to revisit the packable concept. If Scrape _could_ break down into three sections, and be stuffed into the back seat, this problem would be obliterated...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I went to the groundbreaking for the Columbus Idea Foundry's new home today, and bumped into the curator of the Motorcycle Hall of Fame; the guy who commissioned the artist to paint Scrape and I. He now wants to feature the actual bike in the museum, with the art!  I asked how long, he said until around May. I asked how soon, he said ASAP. 

I think I am going to do it, but that means I can't work on the bike until almost summer. From a marketing standpoint, it's kind of a priceless opportunity though. Afterwards, I'm the designer whose work was selected and exhibited in the Motorcycle Hall of Fame...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that sounds brilliant! Also means you get a break to relax on scratch and get settled and moving forward. Amazing Todd! All the best with it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow that sounds brilliant! Also means you get a break to relax on scratch and get settled and moving forward. Amazing Todd! All the best with it!


Thanks Tyler! 

I think it will be a good morale booster for my team too. Curt already offered to get the wiring cleaned up before it goes. I told him and Nic that it's also worth considering whether to take it to the Easyrider's show next month, then, to the Hall of Fame. It would be kind of cool to win a People's Choice award there, and that could be displayed in the Hall of Fame exhibit, so the curator might even be in favor of waiting a few weeks...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

If it's in the Hall of Fame exhibit, does it have to stay there? Meaning, can it go to the HoF, come out for Easyrider's, go back to the HoF? Best of both worlds.


Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> If it's in the Hall of Fame exhibit, does it have to stay there? Meaning, can it go to the HoF, come out for Easyrider's, go back to the HoF? Best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> Bill


I actually typed a reply soon after your post Bill, but forgot to click send. Doh! 

If I decide I definitely want Scrape in the Easyrider's show, I might bargain for that. I would just tell him I want to take it to Easyrider's first, and see if he offers to let me pull it for the show, and return it afterwards.

Curt, Nic, and I, have been tossing this around thinking about what we could accomplish before the show. That will also have a lot of bearing on when it goes to the Hall of Fame. If we decide to go crazy for the show, we might need that entire three weeks with the bike. I started smoothing the body and fairing out today, and that is developing so quickly that I could actually have them ready for carbon fiber lay-up far in advance of the show. That would be nice for the Hall of Fame too, so that it looks a little more high-tech. Curt can also get the wiring cleaned up, and we could probably do a lot of small detail work like blasting and painting parts. I think we'll be working on it at the machine shop where Curt works, so I would also have access to any and every kind of machine necessary to make quick work of all the little to-do items.

An example of that, is machining a headlight bracket, so the headlights would actually be on the bike for outings. The Bridgeport vertical (manual) mill there can hog out a lot of material, fast; and has a digital readout (DRO), so I can save time that would be burned up counting turns, and triple checking with the caliper...

Lots to consider...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to get moving on the three definite items I want to address before Scrape goes to the Hall of Fame, and possibly the Easyrider's Bike Show: the body, the wiring, and the headlights.

I started on the body. A heavy coat of joint compound Tuesday, a lot of surfacing with rough grit paper and a lighter coat of joint compound Wednesday, more surfacing and a fresh coat of acrylic paint today. It's still wavy, and non-symmetrical in places, but it's no longer lumpy. 










If I decide to go for the carbon fiber lay-up, I have to get into my perfectionist mode, and start carefully fine-tuning and matching the contours, side-to-side.










The plan is to get it to the shop early next week so Curt can start on the wiring, and I'll probably start whittling out a headlight mount, while I assess my ambition for the carbon fiber goal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The day I put the body and faring back on the bike it was raining and freezing cold. Since it was _only_ freezing cold yesterday, I decided to go back and take a good look at it outside. It was somewhere in the teens for ambient temp but the wind chill was unbearable, so I would position the bike, jump back in my warm car to stare at it, go out and snap a few pics, re-position, then run - screaming like a little girl - for the warm car again!  Two more months before I stop questioning my decision to stay in Columbus... 

The bright, but (classic gray Ohio winter) overcast, day did present the perfect opportunity to get some decent pics from my little pocket Nikon.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey Todd, looking good. One thing, tighten up that chain!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey Todd, looking good. One thing, tighten up that chain!


Thanks Tyler.  It's purposely loose for two reasons. One, to keep it alive a little longer with the 10T front sprocket. I plan to move up to a 12T when I have more information and control over how much current I'm drawing from the batteries. The Alltrax doesn't let me set a limit on battery current, so I have been trying to go easy on the AGMs.

Two, until I get the right side motor mount cut and installed, the loose chain also helps compensate for any twisting the motor does.


After the Motorcycle Hall of Fame deal, I want to get gauges; a more powerful, more programmable, controller; and eventually lithium batteries.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt and I loaded Scrape into a minivan and shuttled it to the machine shop, where he works. Eric, the owner, is the same guy that cut the first motor mount for the Inhaler. He was more than happy to sponsor Scrape, with some floor space, equipment use, his minivan, and by allowing Curt to work on Scrape around his regular day job responsibilities.

We're going to get as much detail work done as possible before it goes to the Hall of Fame, and possibly the Easyrider's Bike Show. First items on the agenda, Curt will start tidying up the wiring, then some welding and metal finishing; while I dive into the bodywork. My first goal is to get them looking better. If time is on my side, I will go for the carbon fiber lay-up. I decided to go for the baseball stitch down the center of the body and fairing and will start creating the beaded edges tomorrow.

Most of the time with the body parts is sitting around waiting for the joint compound to dry between coats, so I plan to tackle the headlight mount in that time.

Pics soon...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds great!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just called and touched base with Ric, the Hall of Fame curator. The plan is to trash and get as much done, as quickly, as possible, take Scrape to the Hall of Fame, pull it for the Easyrider's Show, and return it to the Hall of Fame - he offered it and told me he has the load-in/load-out, and exhibit space, setup in a way that makes it easy for us to do this. He said he told the museum staff they have to be more flexible with us/Scrape, because its "history in the making, not a piece of retired history." 

Geeked!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Brilliant! Sounds like a good guy to have on your side. I look forward to display pics


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Brilliant! Sounds like a good guy to have on your side...


Yup, definitely.






tylerwatts said:


> ...I look forward to display pics


In the meantime, we found Scrape snuggled up to Eric's Haas CNC mill, so we worked on it there.










Curt dove into the wiring, and is making good progress. He added a terminal block (under the body) to fix the twisted bundle of ground wires I forgot I stuffed under there, and is sorting through the harness eliminating anything nonessential.










The green strip is a piece of plastic I cut and shoved the in slot I (purposely) left in the center of the body, to locate the baseball beads. Then, I hot glued .1875" nylon rope to the body, and blended it in with joint compound, but I forgot to take pics of the rope glued on before I started smearing joint compound on it. 










Here you can see the baseball seam starting to show up. I have to get some weaved or twisted copper wire, and a bunch of bronze or pewter eyelets, if I decide to go all the way with this now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ... I'm mentally toying with idea of Scrape being firmly oriented towards performance (engineering), while The Inhaler goes full-throttle towards art (design). I haven't figured out how that works with resource allocation though. That is dependent on how I move forward with the business, and what I need more to make it happen (form or function)...





toddshotrods said:


> ...I like that plan. It's probably where I'm going with them. I've been pretty much focused on functionality and performance with Scrape since the beginning, and it just feels natural for the project. I add my _Todd_ touches, here and there (body, fairing, seat, etc), but for the most part it is always about making it do what it does better...
> 
> ...it just kind leans and pulls me towards performance...


I've been all over the place, ping-ponging up and down, back and forth, especially since the Inhaler was reincorporated into my little collection, trying to sort out, figure out, a viable plan to move forward with.

I think it is finally starting to gel. I was dead-on about Scrape being more performance oriented, and the Inhaler more towards art. What I wasn't taking into account is the fact that *I* am actually more performance, or more specifically engineering, oriented. I am a design guy, but I really like functional design, laced with the aesthetic. I don't really design widgets, just for the sake of having a pretty widget. I design things that accomplish some task, with the added mandate of looking spectacular in the process.

What all my babbling means is I've realized in the process of getting Scrape ready for the Hall of Fame and Easyrider's Show that it is definitely my flagship; for a few good reasons.


One, it has opened doors and created opportunity better than any project I've ever had; the Hall of Fame being a prime example.
Two, it is a perfect representation of my approach to design. The bike, as a whole, makes an artistic statement but it's all created out of the need to make it work, and work faster/better. The current profile was created by the need for better control, for extreme performance and stunt riding.
 Three, it just makes the most sense. I can easily store, transport, and accommodate it. It fits any plans I see myself in better.
Four, it affects people more intimately. My team, Curt and Nic, are (from my unreasonable standards) leans towards the lazy side. They readily admit to seeking the easy way out, whenever possible - but with Scrape they are usually both always motivated to push for whatever target I set. I don't even have to ask/push. I just inform them what's up, and they volunteer. Curt was more gung-ho to get Scrape to the shop and get started than I was, and dove right in. Nic wants to come help, but doesn't get off work until we're gone. Other people, from the Hall of Fame curator, to Eric (machine shop), etc, always seem to be ready to take some active interest when presented with the opportunity, and present ideas, options, and opportunities, _to me_. _That_, is what this is all about for me - inspiring people - to some type of action. 


So, Scrape is locked in as the TPD flagship project. The Inhaler will be my personal creative canvas. My place to play and get some of the pent up, excess, creative energy out of my system - which plays right into the TechnoRat theme...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More work on the body today. The baseball stitch beads sanded out really nice; almost perfect. I have some detail work to do on the ends, and they'll be back in black paint soon. Then, came the part I dreaded most - the bodywork to match the body to the frame better and match sides A & B in back near the seat. I hate auto bodywork. Joint compound is a dream to work with compared to body filler, but I still hate the whole process. I'm actually good at it, but too anal... 

Despite my dread, the process is going very smoothly and I have resolved and committed myself to just making them _decent_, getting them in carbon fiber, and doing a second, "perfect", body and fairing set later... Pics of all that soon.

With the body well underway, and most of the time on it now being spent waiting for the joint compound to dry, I have turned my attention to the headlights. I took a lot of measurements today, then forgot the scrap I wrote them on at the shop - but, luckily, numbers and facts tend to stick and I remembered all of them. With them, I started planning the headlight mount. It will be a two-piece mount, to allow for adjustment. The lights fit in the front slots and pivot individually, on a shaft through the small horizontal hole, for height adjustment. For lateral adjustment, the whole bracket will pivot, in the other (un-modeled/not shown) bracket, from the rear, center, vertical, hole. The other two, large, vertical, holes are for the fairing's main mounts, and will likely be studs bonded to the fairing, with nuts securing them from the bottom. The front, center, vertical, small, hole is just for stability and will likely be just a pin welded to a spine-like brace that runs up the inside center of the fairing. That will provide resistance against aero forces on the fairing at speed.









The bracket is pretty massive for what it does, to provide a stable mount for the fairing; hopefully prevent jittery, vibrating, lights; and eliminate the possibility of squeaks and rattles, in absence of ICE sound cover.  It's a pretty straightforward combination of manual machine work, and hand finishing; but I have to think through a fast way to do the sweeping radii on the rear edge. I also need to take a good look at Great Machine's equipment and tooling to figure out how I can best do the other half of the mount. I have an idea in my head but it might be too time-consuming.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Busy day. I don't think I mentioned it here before, but a guy was referred to me, and contacted me earlier this week about being featured in a web/TV/radio project he's working on. He has a pretty impressive bio, and is a really cool guy. He came by the shop today and starting shooting some footage of me working on, and babbling about, Scrape. He's going to shoot a bunch of footage of us getting the bike ready, then capture us taking it to the Hall of Fame, and Easyrider's Show. I forgot to have Curt snap some pics of him shooting and interviewing me; and he had to leave before getting any footage of Curt in action today - next time.

Today, while waiting on joint compound to dry, and electrical terminals and connectors to arrive, we jumped down to our respective number two to-do items. Curt's number two was to weld up the holes in the fork caps. That was what I wanted captured, but we decided to just get them done today, rather than wait for another video opportunity. I cut and shaped filler pieces.










And hammered them into the caps, cleaned, and prepped, them.










Then, Curt did his thing.










We double-teamed the initial round of finishing work. We'll eventually get rid of the little voids, blast them and the upper clamp, and make it look like it came this way. This is a temporary solution, until I decide on, model, and machine, the new triple clamps.













My number two item was to get the headlight bracket underway. We found a suitable piece of scrap aluminum, and I started by machining the ends to length. I am loving this Bridgeport, with power collet, DRO, etc, etc.











From there, I could use an edge finder to zero off the left corner, and the DRO to precisely locate, spot-drill, and drill, the vertical holes.











Here's one of my overlays, with the model ghosted in the the billet, to show what's next. I will use the two rear, outer, holes, and a clamp, to fixture this directly to the table (on a piece of scrap aluminum). That will give me full access to machine the cutouts. I am probably going to simplify that rear, sweeping, radius. Maybe I'll make it straight, with a smaller radius on the outside and a larger one on the inside, to give it a little extra spice (even though you won't be able to see it on the bike).


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good Todd. Great to hear about more publicity also. Well done and congrats


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking good Todd. Great to hear about more publicity also. Well done and congrats


Thanks Tyler - I think I'm having fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday was another very productive day, of a lot of little steps forward. I taught a private welding class at CIF, then headed to Great Machine around 5pm, BS'd for a while, then Curt and I put about four hours into the bike. To get the seat "pad" secured, I re-cut the front to fit in the designated slot in the button again (I had it rounded to the shape of, and bolted with the button). Then, I removed the decorative rivets, and we drilled and tapped the aluminum pan to accept stainless, countersinking, socket-head, bolts. Neat, functional, and serviceable (it was going to be glued to the pan).











Curt, meanwhile, squared up the ends of the foot pegs, cut the heads off socket-head bolts, fitted them in the ends of the pegs, and melted them in with a bunch of mini dimes he stole from a Leprechaun.












We also finished the upper clamp. Curt filled in some of the little voids, we did some grinding and sanding, he glass-beaded them, and I hit them with WD40. We didn't go for perfection because these will be replaced when when Scrape starts getting faster.









We'll be back in the shop today...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Come machine with me. 

First we'll make a HUGE mess, hogging out metal (you should have seen the floor).










A stout little Bridgeport, loaded with all the bells and whistles, enables us to find the hidden treasure inside the billet.










Instead of developing a 2D drawing and hanging it on the machine, I had my laptop handy, with the actual CAD model, pulling measurements, and doing math on my iPhone's calculator. I guess I can add... 










Now it becomes a tag team effort as Curt steps in and and starts doing some of his awesome finish work. He actually came in at the end of machining and helped my mentally exhausted self get the mounting hole for the lights drilled and reamed, with some tricks he knew they had tucked away in the drawers - gotta love bells and whistles. Those bolts are just in there for the pic. It takes a single through-bolt and nut. Knowing me, I will probably counterbore the ends for the bolt head and nut - just because.










The point of all this _Toddness_ (madness) is a Rolls Royce quality headlight mount, that does not shake, does not rattle, does not squeak. It just silently, perfectly, aims light in the intended direction; no matter what is happening around it. I am finally getting into some of the EV-specific design concepts I have been mentally-chewing on for years; parts that feel and sound like ultimate precision, in the absence of ICE vibration and noise cover.









Over time, this mount will continue to evolve. It will go back on the machine, periodically, and get lighter and lighter; and more and more detail work in finishing - even though you can't easily see it on the bike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If we accomplish our goal, much of what we've been doing will go completely unnoticed, which is the point - getting rid of clutter, making it neat and clean. Curt has been hard at work, tidying up the wiring. Yesterday we spent quite a bit of time, sorting through wires and the factory service manual diagrams, to eliminate what isn't necessary, and reconfigure much of what is. I scrapped the factory electronic lighting control system when I first converted it, and we figured out how to make the front lights behave properly without it. When the bike is turned on (key switch now, eventually iPhone activation), a few dim, pulsating LEDs will light to _serve notice_ that it's awake. When the right handlebar rocker switch is clicked on, powering up the electric drive system, the halos and taillight will come on, and a small red LED just under that main power rocker switch will light, to make clear that the bike is powered up and ready to ride. The gauges will eventually come on as well, but that LED can be seen easier from a distance, to warn that the main contactor is open. The hi/lo rocker switch on the left grip cycles between the halos/taillight alone, or full lighting, including headlights. I am going to replace the current bulbs with HID bulbs, and don't plan to have high beams. The intended usage, of the bike, is limited and I've noticed that I rarely ever use high beams in any of my vehicles.










Curt made a beautiful harness for the front lighting array, and has eliminated the ball of spaghetti that was under the seat. Eventually, all this will be wrapped and out-of-sight/mind.










After getting the wiring sorted out (8pm-ish), I fed off Curt's enthusiasm to get the lights actually mounted. I really wanted to call it a day, but he really wanted to see it together - even though he had been there, on his day job, since 7am (we left at 11:30pm). I used the Bridgeport again to locate, drill, and counterbore the two main mounting holes. Then flipped it 90-degrees, and we located, drilled, and tapped the light mount pivot hole. Pretty massive, eh? 










The plan was to leave that block alone, do some of my CAD magic, and return to whittling it into something special after the Hall of Fame; but, it was in the way of the wiring's path of least resistance, so I returned to the Bridgeport to hog some material out. From here I will probably put it on the lathe and turn the top section; combined with more manual machining on the base, and then a lot of hand finishing. So much for my CAD aspirations. 










I forgot to take a pic of the lights on the bike, on their ridiculous mount, but here's a peek at the halos.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I purchased the first of what I hope is a long list of titanium fasteners. They came with a blue finish, that I glass-beaded off to get back to the metal's natural appearance. The glass beading erupted in a shower of sparks off the titanium which I thought was really neat, so Curt captured a cell phone pic, which I doctored a bit in Photoshop, for effect; because it was taken through the cabinet window, with the overhead florescent light reflecting off the glass, and through the haze of glass beads and dust inside the cabinet.










Resulting in two beautiful fasteners...










...which go here, in the counterbores of the seat stays. I really only purchased titanium fasteners for this because I found them on eBay for the price of the stainless fasteners I was going to buy - with those cool tapered heads. 










Meanwhile, Curt kept chipping away at the wiring. Here, he's installing a Weather Pack connector on the siren (horn). We're eventually going to do a complete new harness, with all Mil-spec wire, and Deutsch connectors, so this is a cheap way to have a decent connection on the current harness (Eric had a bunch of Weather Pack connectors).










Then, I finally threaded and shortened the rear brake master cylinder pushrod, cleaning up this assembly. There's one more trick to perform here, in welding a threaded sleeve to the clevis, which will bring the pedal up a bit, and be better quality than the captive nut deal Kawasaki used.










Here's a chassis shot (just before I cleaned up the rear brakes). I really like how the chassis is evolving. It looks, purposed, performance-oriented, IMO. 










And, a front-three-quarter view with the headlights in place, and all the clean-up work we've been doing. I've started another round of nitpicking here but, when I painted the body black again, people started saying it looks like we're making good progress; which Curt and I find amusing, because it took a coat of brushed-on acrylic paint for people to _not _see all the clutter and mess we resolved, and find the bike more attractive.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple fun pics.

To the Bat Cave! I _cartooned_ a pic Curt snapped of Scrape last week, while I was doing surfacing work on the body parts.











And then _antiqued_ one he snapped of Keida shooting footage for TPD's feature in his video project.










I am really happy with the progress Curt and I have made on the bike over the past two weeks. It looks much cleaner, much better. We're just nitpicking and detailing little parts and sections now, at a drastically relaxed pace. The last major item on the agenda is doing the carbon fiber lay-up; one day this week. Then, as much detail as we can do before the Easyrider's show; I think it's going.

We're also doing a lot of little technical and fabrication stuff to set the stage for performance testing after the Hall of Fame. We installed a simple rocker switch on the fan, until I can determine the best temp for a thermal sensor switch. We're probably going to cut and re-weld the other fork slider and rebuild them with new seals and oil. We might upgrade the motor side cables to 2AWG, to better handle a little aggressive throttle application. Etc, etc. The point is to have it as functional as possible, so that after the show and exhibit we can provide proof of concept rides, if necessary - or just for the fun of it. 

After that, the momentum shifts to seeing if we can get ready for low-power/low-speed shakedown passes at the Ohio Mile. They run in May, June, July, and September, this year. I would like to make the July and September races, if possible. Probably looking for ~100mph.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More Photoshop fun. Thinking forward to summer, I took a pic of me on Scrape, tucked into "speed" position, to see what I can see, in profile. Any aerodynamic experts and enthusiasts want to weigh in on how horrible this ride is going to be?  The one definite top speed change will be a taller fairing that directs air over my helmet. As it is, that would be directly into my face, and would almost certainly lift my head and body.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. You only need the air stream to cut across the centre of your visor. 2 problems though, it will put alot of pressure on your neck at speed. Secondly, unless you have slippery gear your body will create drag. Not sure how you keep Scrape looking so good and attach a big fairing but no doubt you'll figure it out. Only needed for land speed records of course.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Also, looking at the shape of you 2, you'll need to clean up the air behind you and around the wheel. A hugger will get a good way there. Maybe you need the world's lightest streamliner body. A simple 2 piece carbon lay-up that has 3 mounts each suddenly, headstock, low point on battery box and behind the seat. Just a drop on self clipping design. I've got one in mind if you wish me to draw it up.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

This is the basis of my idea. You have better skills than me to manifest a solution Todd. Good luck.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Can't get my sketch in...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. You only need the air stream to cut across the centre of your visor. 2 problems though, it will put alot of pressure on your neck at speed...


That's why I want it to, ideally, slip the air just over the top of my helmet. I've done 130-140 on older dragbikes, with no fairing, and on sportbikes with full front fairings. Beside the reduced pressure and stress with air NOT beating on your helmet, the other advantage of the windscreen's effect is concentration - everything unwanted that you can eliminate allows better focus on the more critical aspects. I see that pretty consistently as feedback from ICE racers/riders who take an electric bike for a spin (especially on the track) - without the ICE NVH they're able to concentrate more on their riding (line, braking points, etc).






tylerwatts said:


> ...Secondly, unless you have slippery gear your body will create drag. Not sure how you keep Scrape looking so good and attach a big fairing but no doubt you'll figure it out. Only needed for land speed records of course.


Yup, only for top speed attempts. It'll probably be ugly, because it will be modeled for aero, not aesthetics. I am considering leg fairings - almost like little carbon fiber chaps that Scrape wears - also just for top speed runs. Ultimately, drag is really just something I have to overcome, to take a naked bike to 200+...






tylerwatts said:


> Also, looking at the shape of you 2, you'll need to clean up the air behind you and around the wheel. A hugger will get a good way there...


That was my first concern when I looked at the pic. Putting the air back together back there is going to be a challenge. The hugger fender would probably help, assuming you meant a fender. Another thought I had that should still maintain "naked bike" status is a small tail section that slips on in place of the taillight or honey seat - remember that mount is designed to allow quick swaps. So, with a super lightweight carbon fiber/honeycomb tail section, I could point the air off my back towards a point behind the rear tire. I just have to design a breakaway mount so it doesn't trap me on the bike if I have to bail. When toying with aero ideas for a former automotive project, on the Fiero forum, we discussed the fact that a properly shaped, blunted, tail can achieve an effect similar to the long tapered-to-a-point aero tails, commonly seen on LSR cars. Corvettes use this approach to remain true to the car's long nose/short deck heritage, with modern performance characteristics.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Maybe you need the world's lightest streamliner body. A simple 2 piece carbon lay-up that has 3 mounts each suddenly, headstock, low point on battery box and behind the seat. Just a drop on self clipping design. I've got one in mind if you wish me to draw it up.





tylerwatts said:


> This is the basis of my idea. You have better skills than me to manifest a solution Todd. Good luck.





tylerwatts said:


> Can't get my sketch in...


It's there. Maybe after achieving the goal as a naked bike, a full body like that could be considered to make a loftier (mph) attempt on the salt. These first runs will be standing start, one mile, runs.

A turbo ICE sportbike holds the Ohio Mile track record at 244+mph. I think the world record (for bikes) is 276+ - not sure if it's the same bike, but it was a turbo sportbike. Imagine that - 0-276+, on two wheels, no training wheels (wheelie bars), in a mile - rockin'  I'm not aiming for that - just want to break the 200 barrier; and not really for a record. It's for the technological quest/learning experience, and personal bucket list checkmark. 





tylerwatts said:


> ...how you keep Scrape looking so good...





tylerwatts said:


> ...Good luck.


Thank you and thank you!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh good, I see it now. 

The fairing will help you put more kw on the ground rather than into the air, thus more acceleration and top speed. The reason I didn't sketch a bluff shape is it would be long and the rear Tyre is already narrow enough to taper the fairing over. The tricky bit will be keeping clean airflow under the bike! A belly pan is useful here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...The tricky bit will be keeping clean airflow under the bike! A belly pan is useful here.


Agreed there. Scrape really needs something down there to clean things up anyway - possibly a permanent part of the bike. With the DC motor, the forced air cooling fan will likely be located there, so that part will probably serve a dual purpose as the intake ducting for the fan, and a belly pan. I can also direct some up into the battery box, if needed.



I forgot to mention: *today is the big carbon fiber day!* 

The body is all smoothed out (for a first prototype) and ready. The resin came yesterday; I grabbed my mold release, carbon fiber cloth, spray adhesives, etc, etc, from storage yesterday and dropped it all off at Great Machine, to get everything at room temperature; Keida (video), and Nic are scheduled to come in this evening; Curt told his girl don't wait up, and informed Eric and his crew were were going to make a big stinky mess, after normal biz hours; and he recruited a pair or two of extra hands, just in case...

The one thing we have failed miserably on though is getting models for the events. I attribute it to this apathetic town. Curt knows women who are aspiring models, but no matter what we promise them they are unmotivated to move out of their comfort zone and try something new. I don't have the budget for full hourly wages, yet, or I would just advertise and get real professional models. I have always had legit media coverage, and professional video guys, that could really help the aspiring models get more exposure and expand their networks - not too hard to figure out why their careers aren't taking off...

I wanted to stage a little media event out of the bike going into the Hall of Fame, with a full entourage around the little bike, video cameras rolling, and flashes popping. I need to ramp up the hype to accomplish my goals after the exhibit. I have my eyes on the Ohio Mile and then the SEMA show, if I can strike the right deals...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First, here are the lights mounted, with the fairing off. Not seen here: I purchased a piece of all-thread, to see if it would be able to pinch the mount to lock the lights. Eric had concerns about that, because of how thick the mount is. The stainless bolt I want is around $10, so I decided to test it with a cheap threaded rod first - works like a charm, even with a cheap Grade 3 fastener.










As intended, you'll be able to catch a glimpse of this from the side. It's one of those hidden, obsessive details you find, if you keep looking.










Curt doing a little TIG work, to weld up the front seat mount that I forgot. This is another one of those loose ends we're tidying up, in case there's an immediate need to demonstrate the bike after the show or exhibit.












Two things that never change with me: I like the extreme, pushing the limits, obsessively; and, I'm not afraid to take big risks. Go big or go home, so, after all that work on the body and fairing, the next step was to risk it all and cut them in half. One snag, and the blade could have grabbed either piece and ripped them to shreds. No, I didn't finally grow up, I'm standing on a milk crate. 











Success. Four perfectly cut pieces. Taking the risk of cutting them on the bandsaw yielded perfectly flat inside surfaces. Here, I've already painted the areas that the cloth will wrap around, and onto.



















Nic and Keida finally meet and chat, as the PVA mold release dries.











Carbon lay-up. We had some issues, that were totally my fault, so there will be a few small wrinkles, and a little waviness in the surface here and there. I had to keep reminding myself that this is a development body, not the final product. That will be done in a proper mold, with a vacuum bag, and possibly with prepreg.








I also cheated here for Easyrider's and Hall of Fame, by adding the extra resin to give them a gloss coat. I am actually pretty decent with hand lay-up and know how to keep the resin-to-cloth right. These parts are not as strong as they could be, because of the excess resin, but they're also not structural; and, again, are development parts. That is actually two coats, done back to back. First the resin was worked into the cloth, in a relatively dry wet-out; then I went back and added the heavy top coat.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That is looking good Todd. Light and not structural is good for low weight and speed! 
How will the 2 halves fit together? Key will be getting a smooth join line which doesn't move when fitted.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That is looking good Todd. Light and not structural is good for low weight and speed!...


Thanks Tyler!  That's the plan. This body, being a development piece, will be a pound or two heavier than necessary. I expect the final, bagged, bodywork to be a few pounds, with the mounts bonded in.






tylerwatts said:


> ...How will the 2 halves fit together? Key will be getting a smooth join line which doesn't move when fitted.


Just bonded together with epoxy. There was a lip there - the reason I needed the flat surface the bandsaw provided.

They're bonded and on the bike.  The foam is still in there right now, and I might leave it until after the show and exhibit, to prevent burning an entire day doing something no one would notice in a static display. You can see a couple of the wrinkles in this pic. After the events, I will probably dissolve the foam, peel the joint compound and PVA out, and start on the second layer, reinforcements, and mounts.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That carbon totally sets the bike apart now, compared to the DIY spray job before, it is high tech and quality.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I really think the only missing piece is a tiny carbon tail piece flowing from under the seat and hiding the light holder with the light ghosted/hidden in the tail piece with LEDs that are only visible or noticeable when on and maybe the hugger (rear wheel fender to the yanks).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That carbon totally sets the bike apart now, compared to the DIY spray job before, it is high tech and quality.


Thanks Tyler. However, I have to admit that I am not quite as sold on it. We've been hammering away for two weeks now, and with the carbon body parts in place, I finally stepped back and took a long look at Scrape; and reflected on the public response to it over the past year and a half.

I can make it look nice in pics, by capturing just the right angles, but in real life I still just see an ordinary old Ninja with a couple fancy pieces of bodywork. I was doing that 30 years ago... As much as I preach about it, I feel like I have failed to live up to my own potential and just did what was good ol' Columbus "easy".

What does all this mean? Not really sure. It was just kind of like an awakening. Like I walked past a mirror and caught a glimpse of myself, not looking so hot. 

The Easyrider's Show is out. I was going there with my Japanese-based, electric, race bike to gauge public reaction to it in the most unlikely situation - to support the behind-the-scenes strategy work Nic and I have been doing; but I wouldn't be taking what I thought I was, and wouldn't get the data I need from it.

I feel like I fell in a cesspool of apathy and _easy_, and didn't realize I was walking around smelling like it, while I try to sell my awesome fragrance.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I feel like I fell in a cesspool of apathy


WTF Snap out of it son.
That thing has so much conceptual design creativeness, I think its going to come alive and eat your ass like an alien on a rampage.

ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> WTF Snap out of it son.
> That thing has so much conceptual design creativeness, I think its going to come alive and eat your ass like an alien on a rampage.
> 
> ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun


Thanks Rip, but truth is truth - Scrape represents about 10-25% of my capability. I've spent over three decades developing my skills, and I barely cracked the lid for this.

Honesty: This is sort of like sleight of hand, from a design perspective. I used visual tricks to draw the focus where I wanted it, and away from what I didn't want to address. Scrape was a happenstance bike. I purchased the ICE bike to restore and ride, hated the ICE crap, and decided to convert it - all pretty straighforward. Then, I did the body to observe people's reaction, to what is basically the equivalent of a cheap magic trick. That was all to honor my agreement to bring something with "wow factor", that was running, to the 2012 Mini Maker Faire. For the 2013 Mini Maker Faire, instead of digging in and doing something of substance, I juggled the parts around - another sleight of hand trick.

Around twenty-five years ago, I built my first really radical custom bike, with less than 25% of my current skills, that was more creative and more sophisticated than Scrape is today...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

So when will the carbon monocoque frame be done to transfer bits into?! It is a great build Todd, but I understand where you are coming from. Don't let it get you down though. Treat Scrape as a test piece to gauge interest and then see where you want to take the real world changing project to as the follow on from Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...It is a great build Todd, but I understand where you are coming from. Don't let it get you down though...


Thanks, and not in the least ("let it get me down"). Actually, I am really happy I realized it now, and not a week from now, after allowing it to be presented as some great accomplishment in the Hall of Fame.







tylerwatts said:


> So when will the carbon monocoque frame be done to transfer bits into?!...
> 
> ...Treat Scrape as a test piece to gauge interest and then see where you want to take the real world changing project to as the follow on from Scrape.


You're pretty close there. I stopped cold in my tracks yesterday, put the tools down, went home, ate dinner, indulged in a couple hours of news and videos, and tried my best to put it completely out of my head. Today, I woke up and dove right in - objective: figure out whether the project itself has merit and potential; or if I needed to do a complete 90-degree to something else.

I am happy to report that Scrape is loaded with merit and potential.  The problem is from taking the "easy" way out instead of using the old Ninja as a springboard into a real proprietary design. After fulfilling my obligation for the first Mini Maker Faire, I should have switched gears, and started focusing on living up to my own promise. Fortunately, the design concepts I sprinkled on the Ninja like fairy dust are valid, and just in need of a proper foundation.

Carbon monocoque (designed, engineered, and implemented, properly for 200mph) might be beyond my current resources; but a real, designed-for-electric, frame and something better than chopped down forks, are exactly where my head is. I did think bagged and autoclaved carbon fiber first, before remembering where I live and who my current sources are...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Autoclave is just a well controlled oven. And I believe pre-preg isn't as temperature sensitive. Neither is it for vacuum curing so you could make a simple aluminium frame skeleton and wrap it in pre-preg carbon with a monocoque skin between the skeleton in strategic locations for torsional stiffness. Then you have a box (probably upside down) into which your battery module fits and through which you flow cooling fluid (air or liquid) and the controller above in the tank position beneath a clear 'tank' on display. Then you have your pick of running gear, a multi link or paralever front suspension like Vyrus or BMW K series would be awesome. Maybe a BMW shaft drive also, but belt may be cleaner. Huge potential! And a bike is brilliantly manageable.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Autoclave is just a well controlled oven...


That's one of it's features. There are other benefits, but it can be worked around. CIF has large kilns, with very sophisticated electronic control that I had my eye on for some "bagged and baked" carbon work. I think their largest kiln is a bit too small for the frame though.






tylerwatts said:


> ...And I believe pre-preg isn't as temperature sensitive. Neither is it for vacuum curing...


Real prepreg is extremely temperature sensitive. For starters, it has to be stored in a freezer, and the chemical reaction in the resin will start at room temperature, so you need a really cool room just to have time to work it into the mold. Secondly, the temperature is supposed to be precisely ramped up to max, and then precisely returned to "cool". That's what is required to produce a true structural carbon part; _i.e._, realize the maximum potential of the resin, to allow the carbon to perform to its max. Otherwise, you just have pretty parts that are inherently stronger than they appear to be, but not full potential.

Check this out. A real carbon monocoque bike. I believe he said there are 28 layers in the frame. Which, with a standard weight cloth, would put the section width around 0.250"/5.69mm - which is about what I normally see for structural carbon parts; or thicker. We're talking about a pretty substantial materials list, because you're also not just seeing how many parts you can squeeze of out each yard of material, but orienting the parts for direction...







My real point though, is about before you even get to all that: I can design a steel or aluminum frame, from scratch, with pencil, paper, my head, and maybe a calculator; just based on previous experience, and be certain it's going to be sufficiently over-engineered to accomplish all that's asked of it. Structural carbon fiber is a whole different beast. You're no longer relying on well-defined, pre-determined, structure, strength, and toughness, characteristics of a specific piece of metal - you are determining what those properties are going to be, with each layer of material; what material, what direction it runs, in each layer.

The first thing I would have to do is "upgrade" from Pro/E to SolidWorks, because I don't think my current version of Pro/E has enough _muscle_ to get me through that. I could design the part, do the FEA to find out where the main stresses are, but I don't think I have the ability in this package to change the direction of the material in each layer, and really fine-tune it's properties. If that is possible in this version, I want no part of working through it because this is still from the _when they were starting to realize they could make software that didn't require people to almost become software engineers to operate it _phase. Some "single steps" still take me ten steps to accomplish... I _think_ I remember seeing somewhere that SolidWorks has the ability, or that there's a plug-in available, to do real modeling and analysis of carbon parts.

So, there's purchasing a new computer, new software, the learning curve of me adapting to SolidWorks, buying a crapload of prepreg, finding a freezer to keep it in, a cold room to work it in, with quick access to a precisely controllable oven to cook it in... When are we racing 2025?! 

Is it really that critical? Yes. In triple digits, if you're wrong and the frame flexes, you find out when the bike starts to turn when you're pointing straight (feels like it's drifting to the rider, but it's trying to turn), or goes into a violent wobble, etc, etc.








tylerwatts said:


> ...Then you have your pick of running gear, a multi link or paralever front suspension like Vyrus or BMW K series would be awesome...


I am probably going to do a girder style front suspension on this bike. I'll offer more on that when I finally get my head back into it. I used to spend countless hours a day playing with motorcycle front suspension geometry, starting way back, before I had my first computer, and was literally drafting (with, T-squares, compasses, protractors, etc) each version, and then through the movements with more drawings of each version. Ah, the good ol' days - {{{{BUZZER}}}} NOT! 





tylerwatts said:


> ...Maybe a BMW shaft drive also, but belt may be cleaner...


It's most likely still going to be chain driven, definitely not shaft - notice all the fast guys are still running chains? If some belt company can really prove to me that their belt is as strong as a race chain, I'd consider it - until then, a noisy, messy, chain is the ticket. Maybe a belt for street riding, later.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Huge potential! And a bike is brilliantly manageable.


Agreed, which is why it was easy to make the decision to just keep going forward from where I am, with Scrape. Can't beat it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I went to Easyrider's as a spectator, and my decision was dead on - I'm glad I backed out and didn't display Scrape there, yet. Because Easyrider's is a, polished-n-plated, trophy-oriented, show - even the _rough_ bikes there are prepped for the occasion. Curt's ideas were actually dead on for it, but I wanted to show a real race bike, under development - not a staged appearance of one. We would really have had to take the bike apart, and spend a lot of time rattle-can painting stuff, and glass-beading parts, etc. Then, if you want it to look used, and not rattle-canned, you do things like run steel wool over areas of the paint to make it look worn, wipe a little dirty oil on some of the glass-beaded parts to make it look like stuff was spilled on them, blah, blah, blah. Don't get me wrong, I love patina'd cars, and hope to go that direction with the Inhaler. I just want Scrape's racing "patina" to be legit. It's really a raw race bike under development right now, and there are many places it can be, and is, appreciated - the 2014 Easyrider's Columbus Bike Show Tour wasn't one of 'em. 

There was one collection of bikes in a vendor display that's there every year, that doesn't fit that mold. They're always back in the far corner, with their own music, in their own world; kind of blatantly rebelling against the show-n-shine event they paid to exhibit in. It works because they bring their whole world, like a neighborhood in a city. Scrape would have been more like a mangy stray dog, running around in a ritzy pampered pet care facility. 


If I have my way, next year, a true _Todd_ chassis would be something those guys wouldn't want to let a rain drop fall on before they could get twenty layers of candy-pearl on it, but would stand proudly as a functional, purpose-built, race bike. I really would like to see how that type of crowd would react to my real work...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. Have you seen the Lotus superbike pics? Looks like a trellis frame with carbon wrapping bodywork. Interesting and maybe something you might find intriguing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. Have you seen the Lotus superbike pics? Looks like a trellis frame with carbon wrapping bodywork. Interesting and maybe something you might find intriguing.


This _little_ guy?


















I've never seen that before - Googled "Lotus superbike", out of your post. First images I saw were racing bicycles, then I noticed Motorcycle News in the list and clicked to this article.

I'm surprised though because I would have expected a cutting edge sporting motorcycle from Lotus, not a dual-shocked, raked-fork, muscle-cruiser. This looks to be aimed at the Harley V-Rod ($$$); probably smart, but surprising.




Back to your point: that's all cosmetic, maybe aero too, if you stretch it a bit. I am really into expressing function, through really extravagant design, these days. Except for the existing, humpback, body shell, I would really prefer that every single part of Scrape be functional, and exposed.

I'm being (visually) elusive for a bit, to sort out my thoughts, but the trellis frame I have in mind, and have started toying with, would be a sculptured, work of art, that would be a sin to cover. 

Keep it comin' though, everything feeds the mad scientist process!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Excellent. Only thought of it for the open bodywork and carbon wrapping. I look forward to the next iteration of Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to work on Scrape today. As I told Curt, the plan is to get it running, and beat the crap out of it. Before it goes to the museum, as a "developing race bike", how about we actually start down that path... 

Today, I finished fitting the fairing, and then started making patterns for, and taking measurements of, the chassis. I wanted to use the CMM to capture the current frame, but Eric is between setups on that, so I resorted to my old method of reverse-engineering - careful measurements and patterns; that I will translate into CAD. The first thing on our agenda for getting it up to speed are the forks, but the biggest question mark _was_ the front suspension geometry. I also needed that for developing the new chassis, so I also pulled the upper fork caps off and measured the current offset in the triple clamps.

To my surprise, I found out the geometry is fine!  Because I lowered the front of the bike so much, in relation to the rear, the rake was reduced from 29-degrees to 23-degrees. I naturally assumed that there would also be a substantial reduction in trail (the ability/tendency for the front wheel to track straight and self-correct), but I had never measured the offset to figure out the actual geometry. The thing I forgot was that it has ZX6 front suspension. The ZX6 has much less offset, which automatically put the trail exactly where I was going to with custom triple clamps! 

By the colors and numbers, here's the story:











White - the original ZX9 900 Ninja rake (29) and trail (4.5) numbers
Green - how much trail I expected and would have found, with ZX9 clamps and 23-degrees of rake.
Red - what I actually have - 23-degrees of rake/4.10" of trail (I was going to shoot for 4")
Blue - what I actually started with, by having ZX6 front susp on a stock height ZX9 = 5.55" of trail.




So, a serious win-win deal - that also helps explain why I didn't end up on my azz when I pushed the speed too high (with no upper bushings, seals, or oil) at the Mini Maker Faire last year.  So, when we get the other slider corrected, and the forks properly rebuilt, Scrape is ready to push to whatever speeds I choose.  I plan to add a good steering stabilizer as speed increases, to give a bit of _tuning_ capablity...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The surprising good news on the geometry serves an additional purpose in helping establish focus for my design work. Rather than recreate the wheel, and double the engineering challenges, I am going to focus solely on the new frame - putting all of my attention on it, and pushing that as far as I can. Later, when that design is fully sorted out and implemented, I'll look at returning to the custom front suspension. That puts more pressure on me to do something really spectacular with the frame, because it will carry the entire burden of making this bike a valid, proprietary, design concept.

My "top secret" early experiments confirm this, as removing the girder doesn't kill the concept. It really is all about the frame. If I nail the frame, all the other design elements make sense, and work better; the Italian-inspired, feminine, body shape; the mechanical-organic seat and fairing; the (battery) "box", etc, etc...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While I get the design process rolling for the new frame, the current Ninja frame has work to do. It's a rolling testbed to support that process, and to accomplish that it needs to be fully functional. I resumed fabricating the upper frame mounts for the seat stays today. I had cut this little hunk of steel out last week, I think, but got side tracked. This was Curt's idea - to gut a solid piece of steel, rather than fabricate two little boxes, from a bunch of small cut-n-grind pieces.

So, today, I machined the center out, and drilled and tapped the block.












Next, it was split in half to create L&R side mounts. I used a straight end mill for the first 0.75" through the 1.25" block, then finished the last 0.375" with a ball-end mill to allow enough remaining material to do a little hand sculpturing on the outside.












Then, I made a poster board pattern, and rough-cut the frame notches, with a cut-off in the angle grinder. I stopped there because I wanted my beastie (Porter Cable right angle grinder) to do the notches and sculpting. I retrieved it from storage earlier, so tomorrow these pieces should happen.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here we go... It's frame time. I need a composer and an orchestra to give me a big screen cinema opening number. This frame is intended to be my best CAD work, and signature piece that makes Scrape my best design work - ever. The result is supposed to be an effective representation of my "more than three decades" of this mess. The TPD CAD shop is open...









As mentioned, Scrape's new foundation will be a sculptured, Ducati-ish-by-_Todd_, aluminum, trellis style frame. I settled, once and for all, on aluminum for structural and technical reasons. My first choice would have been carbon fiber, but there are too many issues to deal with in a real, structural, carbon chassis, that are beyond the scope of this project. One, the design and engineering challenge of building structural integrity through layers and layers of carefully oriented fibers. Two, the cost associated with such madness (in time and money). Three, because of the intended use and the possibility of seriously compromising a carbon frame through rough usage (stunt bike) and accidents, catastrophic failure could become a possibly. If you're not familiar with what that means - because the strength is built in through the carefully oriented layers, if there is a crack, or deep gouge in a carbon part, the strength of the part can be lost or compromised, and it can break. Metal frames can be repaired...

I considered titanium but the cost is just way too high. Price large, thick, titanium billet.  I considered 4130 ("chrome-moly"), but because of the sculpturing I plan to do the weight would be excessive, or engineering and machine time to whittle blocks of 4130 down to the minimum possible weight too high. The goal is slightly over-engineered/over-built. That leaves aluminum. The roughly 50% larger section width needed to equal the strength of 4130 results in a more pleasing aesthestic, that is actually stiffer, and a tad lighter; plus the extra thickness goes hand in hand with my obsession with sculptured metal. 

In the rendering: This is the basic setup to start bending and shaping virtual metal into a trellis frame. The neck is in place, the swingarm pivot is in place, and the basic guide curves are roughed in. I'm modeling around the largest motor I've considered, EVDrive's, Remy-based, IPM, motor - 11" diameter, 10" case length. I'm not sold on that motor, and don't like it's mass (101lbs), but wanted to be set up for an 11" motor. The YASA motor is the same diameter but far thinner, and lighter. The battery pack shown is 204 Turnigy 1S/2P modules = over half of a MegaWatt (588,900w) - 755v*780a (at 130c) = 789hp (potential) in the box - and a 4.5Kwh pack.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Fishing for feedback, before I make the big investment (time).

I'll start here, by addressing Curt's comment, earlier: 


> That's pretty simple for you


Yes, because this is merely the foundation for me to _begin_ doing my CAD work on - the basic form. It _will_ be a little different than my normal, in your face, design work.

In the rendering: The trellis frame's basic shape. I have requests out to five different CNC tube bending servies for a quote on the four main rails; to be bent in aluminum alloy tubing. I actually called one (very good) local place first, but never sent them any more info, because they asked for a PDF, and said they don't use CAD models. Another is on my "skeptical" list, because they also asked for a PDF to go with the CAD model. One said no, because they don't do "development work" (only large production runs), and they admitted their machine can't produce some of my bends.  Three still out there... I want the shop to bend directly from the model, so that the CAD work I do around the model will fit the rails, perfectly; no human translation, from PDF, allowed. 








Gray represents carbon fiber (my textures for it suck, and distract); silver is aluminum; really dark gray is black (like on the tires) - the frame is done in that color because I think I am going to anodize it black.

The point of the massive trellis frame is it, of course, mounts the motor and battery pack, providing a stable, secure, place for them to operate to full potential. It also mounts and protects all the sensitive electronics inside the "cradle". It does so while placing all of the EV stuff, and a _living_ _portrait_ of how it works, on full display

Thoughts? Comments? Good, bad, or ugly - I can take it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like the frame, but I still have an ongoing problem with the battery pack being just a "box". What if you staggered the top and bottom cell groups forward towards the front wheel to somewhat follow the curve of the wheel? Or move the top cell group forward and the bottom group rearward to give it an angle?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I like the frame...


Thank you. 





JRP3 said:


> ...but I still have an ongoing problem with the battery pack being just a "box"...


I do have plans for it, aesthetically, but it will still be a "box" though, sorry.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The frame looks ok, a bit plain and functional though.
I'd like to see the curved tube over the motor drop down a bit further at the front end where it meets the horizontal tube over the battery box. I'm thinking of the curve starting at the 10 or 11 o'clock position before sweeping up over the 12 o'clock and then back down to the 3 o'clock point

Would like to see how it looks with the rear suspension in place, that may change the balance of it. It looks a bit 'blocky' and disconnected from the rear wheel like that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Can't beat this with a stick - my two oldest EV friends, first up, back to back, and even in order (of how I met them)!  I've been pouring over some of my old, pre-CIF, CAD renderings to see if my "mojo" is coming back, and then a blast right out of the past - the guy who drug me here, screaming and kicking; and the guy who helped me realize how much fun this stuff can be (creatively)... 





Woodsmith said:


> The frame looks ok, a bit plain and functional though...


You sound like:


> *Curt:* That's pretty simple for you


*
Todd:* Again, this is the foundation to _begin_ a little _Todd style_ CAD work. I promise, it won't be "plain", when I _get done with it_. 






Woodsmith said:


> ...I'd like to see the curved tube over the motor drop down a bit further at the front end where it meets the horizontal tube over the battery box. I'm thinking of the curve starting at the 10 or 11 o'clock position before sweeping up over the 12 o'clock and then back down to the 3 o'clock point...


I like that idea, but they already seem to have problems with what I've modeled already.  The dies on some of these CAD benders are four pieces that can break in the center to form tighter and looser radii. It's super cool, but the owners/operators get lazy and never really push the machines to figure out what the capability is, so they'll tell you the machine can only do what they've been doing. I told Curt that I see so much potential in all the machinery at the shop he works in, and where we're working on Scrape, that is all left on the table. Four CNC mills, a CNC lathe, two manual lathes, a Bridgeport manual mill (that's actually a 2-axis CNC - retrofitted), a dozen other random pieces of impressive equipment; all probably existing at 20% of its potential...

I should probably, really, be talking to the equipment manufacturers, and their development shops, who are eager to prove the capability of their machines; instead of some single-focus shop that makes the same type of widgets, everyday, all day.




Woodsmith said:


> ...Would like to see how it looks with the rear suspension in place, that may change the balance of it. It looks a bit 'blocky' and disconnected from the rear wheel like that.


I will probably, eventually, get around to modeling the rear suspension. I am going to do the forks soon, to connect the front wheel to the design better. I think I am also going to run a small hugger fender on the rear wheel which will help with that, without killing the streetfighter look.


Thanks again guys - really great feedback!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple things:

One, you know how the VW Beetle comes with a little vase for a Daisy? (Joking) I'm going to put one on Scrape for a Darth Vader flower (Aristolochia salvador platensis), from the IFLS FB page...
.










Two, and more serious/to the point, I've been sitting on Scrape a lot recently, as I work on it, and I love, love, love, the _feel_ of the bike now! It's not ergonomically comfortable, by any stretch of the imagination. It's ultra radical, and 100% "me". I don't usually want to get up, once I get in the saddle, because it's almost intoxicating to me to be there. It's a mental thing that transcends the physical, and I can imagine getting so lost in it, that I have trouble standing up straight and walking after extended periods of play, I mean work. 

Mission accomplished there. That's a design goal I have been chasing for quite a while; the melting of man and machine...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With my preference for high RPM, ACIM or PMAC, motors comes the associated higher voltages - generally 600 -720-ish. Amazingly my preferred RC cells will fit in my current box size and layout, and deliver the necessary power levels. 204, 1S/2P modules, create a 408 cell 204S/2P pack, that's 745.8 volts, and by Turnigy A-Spec data can deliver 390 amps continuous, 780 peak (65/130c).

I have been thinking about how I would assemble the pack, and today I decided to hash out the interconnects. This design would be a sizable investment of time and money, but they would make assembly and maintenance on the pack relatively painless. My preferred modules come with two cells in a hard (plastic) case, with sockets for 4mm bullet connectors. These cast interconnects would simply plug into the postive socket of each module, twist into position, and plug into the negative socket of the previous module, in a row of the stack.








The interconnects themselves are designed to not touch the next one, hence the scalloped top bar. That bar is thicker than the tabs that extend down to locate the pins in the sockets, so that it doesn't lose capacity due to decreased width in the scalloped areas. The software says there's actually more _meat_ in it than in the tabs...

I'll have to re-model the tabs because I was lost in my own thoughts and didn't refer back to the model. The recessed area, where the sockets are, isn't as long on the actual cells. I don't have an actual model of the cells, just a generic recreation. Also, I have to order some and see if there is any variance in the socket spacing - assuming they're produced in a country that has less stringent quality standards than I... That's not a game changer, just something to consider if extreme, to keep the rows nice and tidy.

What issues do you see?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Theoretically hard interconnects between cells could place stress on the cells but I don't know if it would be a real issue in this case.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Cast posts are a bad idea, and the standard male bullet pins have spring contacts. And then the whole high voltage assembly from those hobby RC packs is worrisome. I don't think they are intended to go into 700V systems.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Theoretically hard interconnects between cells could place stress on the cells but I don't know if it would be a real issue in this case.


I thought of that. I can kind of "float" the modules, if necessary, to reduce stress. I could, in theory, even design the interconnects so that they slip onto a non-conductive rail; leaving the modules hanging almost completely free (would probably band them with an elastic strap, or something).




Thanks for posting that pic Major, I meant to and forgot. 




major said:


> Cast posts are a bad idea...


The plan to deal with the weak, soft, casting was to heat treat them. Cast in a specific alloy, in new molds, from a clean crucible, and heat-treated to spec, for a specific hardness/toughness. Properly engineered, you could beat on that thing all day long and mangle it, but not break a post off. That's the theory, but I do get your point. Honestly, being me, I would probably machine them from billet stock. If I happen to get my little mill up and running by then, I might...





major said:


> ...and the standard male bullet pins have spring contacts...


I am aware of the spring contacts, and have two thoughts on that.

One, with the resolution I've seen guys getting with investment casting, I _think_ I can design plugs and process to have the spring terminals hollow, crosscut, shape. I know that's still not a true spring terminal on the posts, but my thought was that, with careful measurement and setting of each post before assembly, a decent fit could be established.

Two, expanding spring posts like that are a compromise anyway. A real solution is for a well-engineered, interference, fit; providing as much metal to metal contact as possible, and little to no chance of weakening and loosening. That would be impractical for what those posts are typically used for; _e.g._, multimeter test lead pins and sockets. So, in theory, I could obtain a better connection with a well-engineered solid post; in theory. 


Alternatively, the spring terminal posts are available separately, and could be joined to the interconnect. I am not crazy about the joining part of that, and haven't found any threaded or tapped posts yet, or something that can actually be welded, not soldered. I am also going to order some of these to see if I can tap them.
















major said:


> ...And then the whole high voltage assembly from those hobby RC packs is worrisome. I don't think they are intended to go into 700V systems...


Agreed, but there's one sure way to find out.  My plan is to start with a really small 48v pack on the current setup, and totally abuse them; then move up to somewhere around 200v, and conduct testing more similar to how the 700v pack would be used. If all is well with that - take the plunge and find out.




My biggest concern is cooling. I love the convenience of the hard case modules, but am concerned about the temperature inside that case. I will dissect one module to find out where everything is, and probably carve the cases, on the CNC, to allow air or liquid coolant flow through them. I kind of think I can regulate the temp well enough, given the intended use of the bike, with forced air, but am prepared to go all the way with a sealed box, flooded with (expensive) non-conductive coolant, if necessary to protect them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think Eric's crew thinks I'm crazy, but I'm not so hyped up on this whole Motorcycle Hall of Fame thing anymore. When he first approached me it was just for a commissioned artist's painting of me on Scrape, to go in the museum, then he added the request for the bike itself. Around that time I was just making my transition out of CIF, and stuffing everything into storage, with intention of pressing the pause button for a while. I didn't even expect to stay in Columbus, so tossing Scrape in a museum, while I sorted out my plans, seemed perfect.

Now, winter's cold, ugly, days are numbered, and my focus on riding and racing my bike have returned. When the weather turns, I want to be on my bike! My goals are not to impress motorcycledom, or the automotive industry. My goals are to pursue design, and inspire people who want to explore their own potential. Scrape is my flagship design and marketing tool, towards those end goals. Now that I have set my plans in motion to rectify what bugged me about the project, and as the mountain of little details gets chiseled away, making it more and more functional, I am really getting the itch, the bug, to just ride...

Today, I met Alicia (the artist) at the shop, so she could see the lights in the dark (shop lights off), and take some more pics. Afterwards, since I was there, and motivated by that itchy bug, I chiseled away at more of those details. First up, I turned the threaded bung for the rear brakes. It just needs TIG'd onto the clevis now.










It eliminates that captive nut I hated so much, and raises the pedal back to its proper place. Feels awesome. I can use my toes to really control the rear brakes now, and they're way overboard for this lightweight bike (super sensitive). Before, I was locking them up every time I touched the pedal, now I can stop on the slippery shop floor without skidding. Little details that make a bike become an extension of the rider.











I've finally figured out what I want to do about the forks. I don't like the rubber-o-ringed plug Kawasaki used to secure the springs in the tubes. The former bar mounts, and now fork caps, make sure they can't utterly fail and exit the tubes like an ejector seat, but I just don't like that design. My solution will be cutting a groove for a stronger, steel, internal expanding ring, to lock the springs in the tubes. On top of the springs will be little dished shims. The fork caps will get an extra hold down bolt (one each), and threaded bungs welded to them, that will allow adjustment bolts to push down on the dished shims, adding pre-load to the springs. Yes, they sell these, but where's the fun in that. 

Preparing the way, I turned the counterbored cups, and threaded sections, for adding the extra hold down bolts.










They'll go here; recessed in a bit.










Next, I'll fit these and start on the pre-load bungs...










I forgot to take pics of the seat stay upper mounts. They've been fitted, and ready to weld, since Wednesday or Thursday.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut the pre-load adjustment bungs today, found the center of the caps (over the tubes) and bored the center holes. I forgot to take a pic of the bung out of the cap. It has a 0.750" diameter x 0.500" deep section that protrudes into the cap, to center it, and allow welding from the inside too. The main section is 1.5" diameter, and a little under 0.750" talll, and is threaded for a 12M-1.75P bolt. The flat top surface is for the jamb nut. I hope to find large diameter, low profile, SS or Ti, nuts; to complete the techy asthetic. I also milled the clearance for the outside mounting bolts.












Here's a mock-up view of the assembly. The bolts are temporary stand-ins. The real deals will be Allen head, fully threaded, bolts. This visual will be completed with an aluminum mount for my iPhone, right in the center of clamp. After playing with my Android tablet for a while, I have decided that I want to stick with iPhone for the interface.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. Please take this as an opinion and with a pinch of salt, but aren't you polishing a turd with those forks and yokes? I'd suggest you could build exquisite sculpted triple clamps with high performing forks, USD or rwu, that would look high tech, perform superbly, and have alot more design input. 

Why are you reworking the old kwak forks in this way? Don't misunderstand me, your mods are beautiful, and enhance the bike alot. It just seems you are reinventing a high tech optimised design in the suspension when you could be tailoring it in form and function better with using the best of that technology to begin and integrating it into the form of your bike. 

Just my observation, your work is excellent and certainly not wasted as is. It just seems a repeat of what happened with the frame. Dressing mediocre up to look good rather than going for gold from the start. Please appreciate this is only my opinion and observation and there are probably many factors pointing you on this path!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. Please take this as an opinion and with a pinch of salt, but aren't you polishing a turd with those forks and yokes?...
> 
> ...Please appreciate this is only my opinion and observation and there are probably many factors pointing you on this path!


I really do appreciate your opinions and feedback, exactly as you intended it - and it's always welcome. Keeping 'em coming. 

As for the polished turd:


tylerwatts said:


> ...Why are you reworking the old kwak forks in this way?...
> 
> ...It just seems you are reinventing a high tech optimised design in the suspension...
> 
> ...


I've kind of switched gears. I am getting the bike setup to begin actual testing, and building in as much stability, tune-ability, and capability for feedback and documentation, as possible. The decision to do things like mod these forks, rather than build from scratch is based on time and money. Simply put, I get the most bang for the buck, for the intended purpose (two sentences ^^^ that way), by capitalizing on Kawaski's engineering and development work. It takes a tremendous amount of time to properly design and engineer sophisticated parts and systems. I probably have well over 100 hours in this front end so far - but, that wouldn't even scratch the surface of just the CAD work for designing/building from scratch, plus materials, plus machine time, plus fit and assembly...





tylerwatts said:


> ...I'd suggest you could build exquisite sculpted triple clamps with high performing forks, USD or rwu, that would look high tech, perform superbly, and have alot more design input...
> 
> ...you could be tailoring it in form and function better with using the best of that technology to begin and integrating it into the form of your bike...


The end goal here _is_ my own, proprietary, front suspension design - we're collecting real-world data, to that end; and establishing a look and feel for what's to come...  







tylerwatts said:


> ......It just seems a repeat of what happened with the frame...


I probably overstated my gripe about the frame. My real problem was that I was about to let it be presented as "my work", when it's just an old, barely modified, Ninja frame. I've even heard people tell others, at CIF, that I built the whole bike from scratch - then, quickly stepped in and told them that it was based on a Ninja chassis. I don't want to be seen as a fraud - especially when I have the capability to be genuine.

Way back in this thread, I was already thinking about building my own frame, and totally making Scrape "mine" - my frustration (with myself) was that I didn't, and kept riding the little CIF/Columbus glory train, and kept using "easy" (Columbus' favorite word), sleight-of-hand, tricks. Now that my real frame is on the _drawing board_, I can confidently, and genuinely, say I am developing a motorcycle, that's my design. This frame, and all that factory stuff, are like tools and research equipment, to help me get there.






tylerwatts said:


> ...your work is excellent and certainly not wasted as is...


Thanks buddy!  It evens serves the purpose there, because it is, _finally_, my actual work, on Scrape. I find it amazing that the bike has worked so well, because I really had not done my typical thing on this project, until now. It was just a body on top of a bunch of rearranged, preexisting, parts. That's why I keep referring to it as sleight-of-hand. I just juggled the cups on the table; like putting takeout on a fancy plate. Now, I am actually making stuff, and at least re-engineering stuff; for an appetizer, while the real meal is cooking.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Agreed. You are making excellent progress. Regarding the forks (and any other similar scenarios) I was saying suspension design is already at the cutting edge and limit of capability as made by the likes of Ohlins, Showa et al so what I was recommending was along the lines of making your own 3d form fork body and fit a cartridge and slider assy into it with bolt in superbike performance for example, thus sculpting your design and functionality into a cutting edge technology. Not trying to design a wheel all over again. 

But for the ideas thus far of your own suspension design I think that is the way forward in the long run. The likes of BMW's K series Telelever front suspension or the Vyrus multi link front suspension design principles are certainly the future! The Yamaha GTS1000 is a fantastic inspiration, needing some optimisation. That delta box frame is one big solid battery box! And the layout is good. Not race bike, but throw in a little Vyrus to spice up the mix. The majority of those components could be moulded or made from composites to probably halve their weight and transform the design concept. I would love to build something along those lines one day. 

Anyway, what I was saying is those goals of yours are epic in every sense and should be the target you continue to strive for. In stages definitely, but keep that end goal in sight to be sure your designs come together like they always started out as one. That front suspension would heavily dictate the front end design of your frame. And the packaging of the bike could vary significantly also depending how you build it. 

I want to give you positive support Todd, not beat you down. I love your dedication and determination so keep pushing. I'm happy to just have any part of it. Wish I wasn't over the pond as I'd love to get my hands dirty but I can only pass on my thoughts over the web atm. Keep up the brilliant work sir, you inspire!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Agreed. You are making excellent progress...
> 
> ...I want to give you positive support Todd, not beat you down. I love your dedication and determination so keep pushing. I'm happy to just have any part of it. Wish I wasn't over the pond as I'd love to get my hands dirty but I can only pass on my thoughts over the web atm. Keep up the brilliant work sir, you inspire!


Thanks! 



On the subject of the forks, I added a faint resemblance of the ZX6 forks, with my pre-load modification, and the iPhone interface, to the model. This is just for perspective, as I start to dig into the actual frame design. I still haven't heard anything from the other three CNC bending places, so I am going to assume they don't do small development projects either, but just don't have the courtesy to reply and say so.  No big deal - I have plans...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Alicia finished her painting last night. Since it's all over FB now, I asked her if it was cool to share here - yup. 









This is just a snapshot of it, that I will replace with a professional photograph, when she gets one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, but I think you have some arcing on the comm


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, but I think you have some arcing on the comm


Haha!  She asked me where something like lightning could come from on the bike, and I explained to her that when things go really bad - right there! 

As Major always says - leave nothing on the table - one run and total meltdown, like a Top Fueler! 

I also explained that the battery pack would be more likely to go up in a ball of fire, so at least I'm not engulfed in flames, like a Funny Car driver when the blower pops!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

For those who haven't been in one of my threads when I get going in CAD, and find all these renderings, and corresponding babbling, annoying or uninteresting - sorry, it might be a bumpy ride if you stick around (lots more of it coming).  Right now, I'm working on perspective. I'm trying to get a general feel for the bike, so I will be adding a lot of stuff, changing stuff, and spewing endless drivel about it all. When I see what I am looking for the real CAD work begins, and a completely ridiculous frame should follow.

Today's madness is I modeled the rider pegs. I'm going to manually mill the holes in the pegs, and really only modeled them to verify before I cut. It also gave me the coordinates to move to on the DRO, for each hole. The forks, the pegs, and a new 250 rear tire, help ratchet up the performance theme. I don't want my frame to look like I was reading a romance novel while I was modeling it. 



















Scrape is basically a street-legal dragbike. I juggled the proportions to give it a streetfighter style and profile, but it's much lower than most streetfighter or cafe style bikes. I am only 5'4" tall and I am completely flatfooted sitting on the bike, and my knees are bent a little. I do have long arms and legs for my size, but I can only get toes, or sometimes just one foot, on the ground on a stock sportbike. The surprising thing though is it will have decent cornering clearance. This is due, in part to me keeping all the EV stuff tucked in; and, in part, to raising the pegs to a serious, rear-set, tucked, road race style riding position. This rendering cheats a little because the front wheel is actually off the ground, but real life testing confirms that the pegs will touch before the battery box, and it's at nearly 45-degrees at that point. Notice I am all the way on the outside edge of that 250 tire? That should make for a fun ride.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good! The fat Tyre sets it off! And I think the extreme riding position tells all intent, no questions needed. 

Are you going to build your own swing arm? The chain alignment is the biggest pain. Keep that in mind with the bigger wheel and tyre


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good! The fat Tyre sets it off! And I think the extreme riding position tells all intent, no questions needed...


Thanks Tyler. I meant to add the 250 tire to the model a while ago, and just kept forgetting. The decision to go with a 250 tire was sealed a while ago, when I found out BST makes a 18 x 8.5" carbon wheel, meaning I can still shave the weight off down the road. When the budget allows, as a temporary measure, I will send a stock rear wheel out and have it widened.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Are you going to build your own swing arm? The chain alignment is the biggest pain. Keep that in mind with the bigger wheel and tyre


I am split between widening the 900 Ninja arm and modifying it, and building from scratch. There isn't a great deal of benefit, beyond bragging rights, because the arm I would build is very similar to the Ninja's factory arm; a little custom work on it would work...

There is enough chain clearance even with the factory frame to run a 250 tire. My frame will be designed for it. Moving the motor an inch to the left is easy - just cut a new mount. I have plenty of room. 




Today, I decided to follow up on my CAD work and make the drilled pegs a reality. First I - _finally_ - did the rough-in on the mounts. These were cut from the original rear peg/exhaust brackets. They also brace the swingarm, tying it into the external frame rails, so they have to be there. On the new frame, that will be a part of the frame, and the pegs will simply screw into that section.











Then, I machined fixture blocks to allow me to simply flip and bore the pegs. They're square, with 0.250" deep pockets cut to locate the tubes. This was taken after they had completed their mission - hence the cut welds. 











The pegs were pressed in, the assembly squared up, and tack-welded together. I simply clamped this in the vise, indicated off the inside edge of the outside (of the peg) block and the vise jaw, and bored holes, following the coordinates from the CAD model. Bore eight large holes (all the way through for two at a time), flip the assembly 90-degrees (with an end stop off the table to locate it again, bore the other eight large holes. Then I used V-blocks to turn the assembly 45-degrees, bore six small holes, flip, bore again... Worked absolutely perfectly. 











The result - drilled pegs! They work too. With just the weight of my leg, my foot feels like it's glued to the peg.











It's slowly starting to look like a race bike to me.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd is your wheel off centre? Doesn't look right in the peg. Also, those pegs look great. When you making them in ally?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd is your wheel off centre? Doesn't look right...


Just noticing that?!  Yup, it sure is. You'll find that on bikes sometimes to get the chain lined up with the motor sprocket. I'm not sure if this was how the Ninja came, or if the previous owner did it to get the ZX6 rear wheel on the bike. He didn't get it right, in any case, because the rear brake drags - caliper brace needs tweaked. Glad you brought this up, and reminded me of that, because we need to cut and re-weld that brace...

I _might_ correct the off-center issue on this chassis. You can see I have plenty of room to move the wheel over and align the chain. It will definitely be perfectly centered with the new frame. It doesn't affect how the bike handles; at least not for the intended purposes (mostly straight-line, stunts, etc).






tylerwatts said:


> ...Also, those pegs look great. When you making them in alloy?


Thanks.  No alloy, these will always be steel, because I want to be able to stand on them, jump on them (stunts), etc; and because they have to be torqued to squeeze the swingarm. The weight savings of a few ounces, aren't worth it here...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

What I'm wondering is, with all those holes in the foot pegs, are they going to start whistling at some point? Might be kinda like those anti-deer whistles they put on the front bumpers of cars. 

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> What I'm wondering is, with all those holes in the foot pegs, are they going to start whistling at some point? Might be kinda like those anti-deer whistles they put on the front bumpers of cars.
> 
> Bill


Lol! I had it up to what Curt said looked like 50-ish MPH today, in the parking lot - forgot to use the GPS on my cell AGAIN... It was quiet, other than the chain noise.

My shoes cover the holes, so I doubt they'll get enough air to frighten Bambi.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I turned the pre-load shims for the top of the springs yesterday. I guess there's an actual technical name for these things, but I don't know it - so I dubbed them "pre-load shim".  They're not 100% identical (saving some of my anal-retentiveness for where it really matters ), but they're the same where it matters. I will finish the pockets with a ball-end mill on the Bridgeport, just to provide a smooth friction-free feel as the adjustment bolts are turned (okay maybe I'm a little obsessive here too ).











A retaining ring will hold the assembly together, and the pre-load adjusters will simply push down on the springs to add pre-load. We'll use a torque wrench to make precise, even, adjustments.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been exploring, researching, and experimenting with the feasibility/benefits of, every conceivable option for developing the power Scrape needs to achieve its goals. After everything I've learned, and especially after following this thread, and most importantly Major's input in it, I am starting to think series-DC might just be the better option for this project; because:



One, I don't need regen. Even the factory ZX6 brakes are beyond overkill for this featherweight bike; and the point isn't economy, it's all-out performance. Regen is a nice buzzword, that makes people smile and "oooo", but it doesn't really offer that much of a real-world benefit; especially for a straight-line biased race-bike.
I originally started the migration from my beloved series-DC to AC because I was dealing with these big, relatively, slow-turning 11" and 13" motors, that would require transmissions and 2500-3000 amps to meet the goals; as per most of the fastest EV drag racers. Read that as prohibitively "expensive", in terms of battery pack and drivetrain needs, and impractical in terms of resources and effort expended to meet my more altruistic goal of using my vehicles as tools to inspire people.
Wayland was turning WZ's Impulse 9s to 6600-6700rpm, which leads me to believe 7K(+) on a smaller motor shouldn't be an issue. Series-DC's forte is torque, so it should - in theory - have the guts (torque) to move such a lightweight vehicle to speed with gearing (approx 2.5-2.75:1) suited to match the desired top-end.
That low (numerical) gearing could actually deliver a two-fold benefit, by giving me a prayer at getting the rear tire to bite, and putting a bigger load on the motor so it will deliver full torque - find and watch the difference in WZ's launches as he (numerically) lowered the rear end gear ratio.
The lighter motor, and controller, and possibly lighter battery pack (assumption because I haven't worked the numbers all the way through yet), means the power necessary to hit the 1:1 power-to-weight Holy Grail also lowers, making it "easier" for the little DC motor to deliver. The, Remy-based, EVDrive motor is 60lbs heavier than the current GE motor...
Stump-pulling torque, from 0 rpm, does sound perfect for a stunt bike. ACIM would be challenged (though probably not _impossible_) to match the almost effortless DC torque, and PMAC brings with it the risk of wiping the magnets from repeated abuse.
One thing is for sure: it's definitely worth reopening this box and exploring my first EV love again...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I've got a few ideas about helping a DC motor spin faster. Main area is brushes, bounce, arcing, friction and heat etc. A rolling contactor is the trick but what material and design is what I'm still grappling with. If we butt heads we could crack this.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd I've got a few ideas about helping a DC motor spin faster. Main area is brushes, bounce, arcing, friction and heat etc. A rolling contactor is the trick but what material and design is what I'm still grappling with. If we butt heads we could crack this.


Lemme figure out whether or not I am actually sticking with DC first. It seems like a good idea, if not a no-brainer, right now but I haven't worked through everything yet, and crunched all the numbers.

My first actual step was just running a preliminary round of numbers through my head, which led to the post about it. Then, I started playing with an idea, in CAD, that I had before - a finned cooling jacket for the motor. Actually, it progressed from a finned jacket to a water cooled jacket (that I actually modeled for my little PM motor), before it was discussed and revealed, here on the forum, that there isn't much heat in the case (Miz actually wrapped his motor with copper tubing, but didn't see any meaningful difference), so I've returned to the finned jacket concept - admittedly because it would be pretty awesome looking, even if it didn't contribute much in the way of performance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I really dug into the model, because I think I've narrowed at least my immediate plans down to one of two options; or maybe both, sort of, simultaneously. Option one would be building the GE DC motor I have (or one similar to it); option two would be building the almost identically sized ACIM motor I have (with a rewind and a jhuebner kit DIY drive). They are about the same physical size, and have the same size output shaft. I could, conceivably switch back and forth between the two drives, which is what I meant by "simultaneously". The DC motor would have a finned aluminum jacket that fits around its metal case, while the AC motor would probably have an actual aluminum case that replaces the factory sheet metal (providing that minimal amount of steel isn't necessary...).

I modeled in Pro/E with all that in mind - so that the model can also be used for any necessary, subsequent, computational analysis; _i.e._, it's a _real_ digital hunk of metal, not surface skins arranged to represent one. I still have to model a clamping system (for DC), and real internal dimensions, end bell and coil mounting/attachment points, etc (for AC). I assume this would be cut in MDF or modeling board and cast, though I would sooooo love to put a 11-12" diameter hunk of aluminum bar stock on a 4-axis mill and whittle a couple of them. 











Then, I stuck it in the bike to get a feel for it. This rendering also has a couple other notable changes. The frame is strung in 1.25" O.D. tubing, instead of 1.5", because I am exploring the possibility of building it in steel, off the original 900 Ninja rear section, and concentrating my design work on the gusseting that brings it together, and all the stuff that hangs from/on it. It might sound like it, but that wouldn't be a sellout - I will invest the same ridiculous amount of CAD/CNC time _somewhere_; the point is to find what provides the highest return. Also, the steering head is an inch shorter, which lowers the upper triple clamp that amount, and really tucks in the "head" of the bike, for an even more aggressive _appearing_ forward rake. The hours and hours of design work, that make a concept really grab you... That I love.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Would it not work better having the fins circumferential? Like the cylinder on an air cooled ICE.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Would it not work better having the fins circumferential? Like the cylinder on an air cooled ICE.


Possibly. I'm really just doing what I want to do because, as mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of heat to dissipate from the surface of the case. Even after passes, I remember most of the drag racers saying the case was still just warm to the touch, not hot. I like the way they look better, as a part of the bike, with the fins running laterally. I plan to use forced air to push air through the fins. I was thinking about that, after I did the model and renderings, and think I might be able to use the same blower to cool internally and externally, with some clever ducting.



If they didn't before, Eric's crew definitely thinks I'm completely mad now. This is what Scrape looked like a couple hours after I got there.  They kept walking by saying they couldn't believe I just ripped the entire bike apart. Eric looked at the frame and said, "There was a whole motorcycle there a couple hours ago." Someone asked, while I was shredding it, why I was doing it? Eric replied, "Because it was almost finished!" Lol! 












The point was to get my paws on the frame. I need to build a fixture for the new frame, and I want to finish up the welding, grinding, and details, we couldn't reach with everything it assembled. Once again, I am glad I listened to the voices in my own head  instead of the chorus around me urging me to just get the thing in the Hall of Fame. I found bolts, on the original bike, that were merely finger tight - like the rear axle!  I found a lot of little things that need to be addressed before even going 65-70 MPH, let alone making passes down the Ohio Mile. I also found a few boneheaded things I did, like welding the rear brake master cylinder mount on and trapping the upper shock mount bolt in with it; and welding the battery box mount in place with a bolt threaded between two pieces of it, that also went through the electronics panel (I had to cut the Lexan panel to separate them).










Some were issues that would have been an annoyance, others were dangerous. All are things that I didn't want to miss in the middle of a mad rush, in May, to get back on track and not lose a summer of playing, I mean testing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a few things still stored on a shelf at CIF, including the remains of Schism's frame. I saved one section for a future project, and one section to be re-purposed as a frame fixture for Scrape. I spent a couple hours there today, cutting it up and re-welding it, to create the base for that fixture. Tomorrow, I will take that to Eric's and start planning the steering head and swingarm pivot mounts; and more bracing for the fixture.


Back in front of my computer, I resumed work on the CAD models I started yesterday. In this round, I tackled two issues that have been bugging me. The first is that in addition to the ridiculous cost of entry, and doubled mass, using the 11" EVDrive motor would also move the front sprocket two additional inches away from the swingarm pivot. _*IF*_, I am able to make the kind of power I seek with the either of the two smaller motors, that would remain close to what the stock Ninja's distance was (I am still using the original chain, with just a couple links added). Here's what the finned motor jacket or case would look like, clearanced to fit the motor as close as possible to the swingarm.











Then, on the bike. Also, another issue that has been screaming at me since I first converted the bike - I am really surprised no one addressed it in the CAD renderings - the swingarm pivot and shock mount section of the frame was just hanging back there, behind the motor. There wasn't any type of bracing, or tie in to the rest of the frame. Even on the current bike, after the addition of the two (unfinished) lower rails (which is better than the CAD models) there isn't a lot of strength back there. This is what really needs to happen. The lower rails need to gradually sweep right down to the pivot, directly tying it to the steering head. I also modeled the lower rails in the larger 1.5" tubing (the upper rails are 1.25"). The motor easily would fit inside the frame rails. It sticks out a bit on the right side now, but that would be corrected when it's moved over for the 250 tire. I think it would probably even fit inside if I center the current 160 tire. If not, it should fit under the frame rail, without the fins.









I think it makes the whole package look more integrated, and purposed, in design.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The motor fins look a bit over sized to me. Here's is what some finned motors look like:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The motor fins look a bit over sized to me. Here's is what some finned motors look like:


Indeed -they're _Todd's_ fins. 

The fins, to be typical, conventional, normal, should be closer together, and much lower. I purposely exaggerated them, to emphasize the fact that it is (against modern convention) air cooled.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to comment on another feature I'm working on - pack-abilty.  We discussed it way back somewhere in this thread, when I first considered doing Scrape 2.0, with a proprietary frame. I wanted to make it possible to disassemble the bike and throw it in the back seat of my little Saturn; to sidestep the need for a trailer, minivan, or truck.

When I broke the bike down I took some measurements, and figured out that I can fit the frame and rear swingarm assembly, minus forks and wheels, in the back seat. So, if I can design quick release, race-quality, fasteners for the steering head and rear axle, I can make that a reality. The ideas I have in mind would assemble/disassemble easily, via the quick-release mechanisms, for street usage; and have secondary, traditional, bolt fasteners that double lock the assemblies and torque to spec for racing.

If I like what I come up with, this will be implemented sooner rather than later, to allow me to begin transporting my little machine more frequently.

I'm also going to move the Honda TB/TPS up to the forks, behind the fairing. The idea is to make assembly/dis-assembly as plug-n-play as possible. The throttle cable will remain hooked up and set, won't be subject to changes in steering angle, and the TPS will simply unplug to disassemble the forks.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Indeed -they're _Todd's_ fins.


So why aren't they curved, instead of straight?
Or helical?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So why aren't they curved, instead of straight?
> Or helical?


 *Only* because they have to be produced with whatever meager _Todd_ budget I can scrape up (pun intended), and with the assistance of whatever business or craftsman I can convince to work with me...


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> *Only* because they have to be produced with whatever meager _Todd_ budget I can scrape up (pun intended), and with the assistance of whatever business or craftsman I can convince to work with me...


Ex-machinist: That's a Huge piece of billet stock. Lathe op, then 4 axis mill or manually index with form cutting endmill. Serious PITA. In 1980, I'd charge about $1000 to make that. And I'd be the low bidder.

Make radial rings out of tube stock on lathe using cutoff bar. Set for 0.0005" +0.0000/-0.0003 ID. Cool motor case in dry ice or LN2 and slide fins onto 8 finish or better case OD.

Not hard to do. Airflow will improve, weight will go down, and you'll have more effective surface area.

For extra trick, drill tube stock on mill first, like a disc brake rotor, then sandblast cooling surfaces prior to assy.

Running fins radially will be much cheaper and faster. And work better. Look at air-cooled motorcycle cylinders. Yes, mass production are cast, but custom are lathe turned radial fins.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> The motor fins look a bit over sized to me. Here's is what some finned motors look like:


Who's setup is this. I'm thinking about a similar belt setup, and I'd be curious to know about the part selection choices.

Nevermind...as I type this I can see the image is from evalbum #1396. I'll go check it out.

Also those fins are not going to do much good with those flat plates blocking the air and cooling fans removed. Hopefully he installed some external fan on these motors.


edit : just looked it up and what do you know...its within driving distance from me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

McRat said:


> ...Running fins radially will be much cheaper and faster. And work better. Look at air-cooled motorcycle cylinders. Yes, mass production are cast, but custom are lathe turned radial fins...


Just to reiterate, there's not a lot of heat to remove from the motor case; at least in typical straight-line performance oriented use. I think that's pretty much a proven fact now, so these fins are more about the aesthetic. I like that better with the fins running axially along the case.





McRat said:


> Ex-machinist: That's a Huge piece of billet stock. Lathe op, then 4 axis mill or manually index with form cutting endmill. Serious PITA. In 1980, I'd charge about $1000 to make that. And I'd be the low bidder...


My comment about finding someone willing to work with me on this is because my mission is to explore limits and push the boundaries, and it's not easy to find people who are willing to _go there_. I know people with the skill, but not the willingness; and mainly because they prefer to do things the easy and/or familiar way.

As mentioned, I am probably going to cut an MDF or modeling board plug and have it cast, then do the finish machine work myself. I would personally love, and have the skill, to machine the entire thing from billet, but doubt that I'll find a collaborative partner that shares my enthusiasm. I don't own my own CNC mill because my mission is to collaborate with others. Being locked in a little shop, with a bunch of equipment, proving to the world what _I_ can do, does nothing for me... I'm more interested in what _we_ can do, so I have to scale back and tailor my mission sometimes to match the willingness of those who are interested in working with me.

A good example is the shop I'm currently working on Scrape in. Eric has bent over backwards to help, but asking him to let me dominate his 4-axis CNC mill for a couple weeks is beyond what he can invest right now. I'm usually on a piece of machinery for a couple hours, and out of his way...

If I do find a partner for this, I will show my method for whittling this out of billet. There was a guy in the shop today that supervises a pretty substantial CNC turning shop, that would probably knock this out in a day. Their newest, biggest, baddest, _toy_ is a 9-axis CNC lathe/mill that has dual spindles - meaning it could grab one side of the billet bar whittle the entire left side, including the inside, the swap it to the other spindle and repeat on the other side, without breaking a sweat.





palmer_md said:


> ...Also those fins are not going to do much good with those flat plates blocking the air and cooling fans removed. Hopefully he installed some external fan on these motors...


Agreed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Getting started on the frame fixture. The frame fits perfectly on the base. Eric donated a piece of 1.25"-12 threaded rod he had in the scrap drawer, which makes an absolutely perfect post for the steering head. I am going to turn a matching taper (to the lower bearing race) on a nut and weld that to the rod, then weld that piece directly to the front rail of the base. I'll turn a tapered cone for the upper race, and a second nut will clamp the steering head securely in place. In back, I'll bore tight-fitting holes in pieces of steel plate, for the swingarm pivot, and weld them directly to the rear rail. A little bracing and gusseting, and my little frame fixture will be ready for service. 











This little guy finally made it off the boat (from China). It's my DC-DC!  48-12v, 3A, just to make sure the 12v stays above the minimum, while running. Hopefully it will last until I move up to a real battery pack...


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Humor me.

Send the cooling sleeve file to mcrat at mcratracing.com in STEP or IGES format.

Then I will send you a file that takes less metal, easier to mfr, better cooling, lighter, and still looks good. 

You want the starburst look incorporated?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

McRat said:


> Humor me.
> 
> Send the cooling sleeve file to mcrat at mcratracing.com in STEP or IGES format.
> 
> ...


No offense intended, as I know you're more than capable (your accomplishments speak for themselves), but you're offering something I am not looking for.

The hassle, the complications, the struggle, is precisely what I am after. The jacket itself isn't even necessary, so not embarking on the journey to realize my over-the-top design would be a fruitless venture for me. I would look at the final product, no matter how nice it turned out, and think what was the point? It's not about cooling, it's about the challenge.


People often ask me why I always have to do things the hard way. I live to inspire people to seek out and obliterate their perceived limitations. There aren't many, but when certain individuals see others doing something they think is spectacular, they are inspired to do the thing that burns within them. That's what I breathe for.

One of my interns switched majors to EE, because he saw himself in what we were doing. Another is back in school, after getting her BA in fine art, to become an ME. Those two were my hardest working, most faithful interns, no matter what ridiculous challenge I set in front of them, because they were driven from within, and I was able to throw a log on that fire. I consult and help a high school robotics team, that is one of, if not, the best in the world. They don't just win, they usually dominate, because they go so far above and beyond what was necessary in design and engineering, compared to many of their competitors. I don't take credit for their accomplishments, but rather gratitude and humility in the fact that they see the value in what I have to offer them. My greatest story, I don't even tell. I will just sit silently and watch it touch the world...

So, when I design and develop a part like this - that message must ring through loud and clear, for those that are looking for it.



> _We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win… President John F. Kennedy (September 12, 1962)_


Off my do-gooder soapbox now...


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

I can respect that. I'm often asked why I do things. The classic response is "To see if I can."


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

McRat said:


> I can respect that. I'm often asked why I do things. The classic response is "To see if I can."


Exactly. It's becoming an increasingly difficult concept to communicate and promote. Ironically, our success in striving for the impossible, as a nation, has made it so easy to just exist, comfortably, that people are generally unmotivated to find out what actually _is_ possible. I was born ~2 years after Kennedy made that speech, into that America. I was five years old, watching man set foot on the moon, on my parents' brand new, 19", B&W, TV, in the house that my dad, who never stopped trying to do more/new things, built - it's just who I am...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

"Ghosted" views of the CAD model. I look at it this way to get a better view of how the big picture is coming together. I'm a big picture person, by nature, but have learned how to focus on the trees - now sometimes they get in the way of my view of the forest. 









This is build pic #400 for Scrape. Cheers!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just started a "build thread" for my little AC motor so see if it's even worth the effort...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After ripping into the little AC motor, I got my head back into the frame fixture. The nuts came today, as promised (love McMaster-Carr), so I was able to get the steering head post fabricated.

The first step was turning the taper on the lower nut. It's a "heavy" 1.25"-12 nut, that is 2" across the flats (wrench/socket size), and 1.4735" tall, so lots of meat to work with.











Then I turned a tapered aluminum bushing for the top.











We'll weld a piece of steel plate to the top of the rail, to reinforce it, and weld the nut to the threaded rod, and then the nut to the plate. Simply drop the frame on the fixture, snug the jam nut, cut-n-grind-n-weld away... Next the swingarm pivot mounts, and a couple spacers to represent the swingarm, for locating the outside frame rail lower ends. Turned and/or machined tubing ends will replace the little aluminum pieces I salvaged from the Ninja's peg mounts











This fixture is giving my motivation to do the frame a nice kick. I can see doing some really nice design and fabrication here, that really sets the whole bike off.

Ironically, as I am starting to really get mentally locked into the bike, I am also more conscious of people around me _literally_ applying pressure to try to get me to compromise, and not do this _Todd_ style. It's rarely ever blatant, or even straightforward. It usually comes in (mostly unsolicited) classic Columbus, passive-aggressive, comments about what I am doing; and most often when I stop to stare at it and think through what I am doing, and where I want to go. Columbus style passive-aggressive, means people make encrypted jokes and analogies, or offer (again unsolicited) opinions on what I should do to make it work. Having lived here for the last five years, I now know that those are actually attempts to get you to do what _they_ think you should do. They'll do things like make a joke about what's wrong with what you're doing, and repeat it - many times a day, if possible; or, slightly more directly, just keep saying, "If it were me, I would do it like this..." - even though you never asked, and aren't entertaining their advice. That actually works with people from here, who are used to submitting to (local) convention, and feel uncomfortable sticking out and being labeled "different". I have observed the effect, and actually watched people here let go of their dreams and curiosities, to obtain the praise of their peers. I know that's not just a Columbus thing, it's a human thing, but there's a _special_ brand of it here.

It's almost like they take offense with people going against their preferred approach to life (easy, non-confrontational), and see a threat that they feel must be eliminated - ever so subtly so.  At this point, they've pushed too far with me, and it has actually started to motivate me to do it my way, and wave it in their faces of doubt.

Final rant: I kind of really put my finger on what's been going on today because I have been curious why people here are so obsessed with the Hall of Fame thing. When I delay or express any doubt about the Hall of Fame, it's like I am saying the world is going to end. When I list having the bike ready to race this summer as the main reason, it's almost like they think I am saying/doing something bad. That pegged my curiosity, so I started paying more attention, and relating what's happening to what I have learned/observed about this place over the last half-decade. The Hall of Fame is easy, it's a given, guaranteed, at this point. All I have to do is roll the bike in there, and everyone can brag about it - a lot of people want to brag about the fact that they know/are friends with a guy to has a bike in the Hall of Fame. I cannot count how many times I've been told in the last month, "I would just take it like it is." Or asked, "When is it going/what about the Hall of Fame?!" - that's asked more like a suggestion, not a curious inquiry.

Racing, and especially the 200mph goal, is hard. It has to be accomplished, and there are more odds against it than can be counted (from a safe-minded person's perspective). I noticed, while at CIF, that some people there really had a hard time even saying I wanted to do 200mph; whether it was a car or the bike. It was too much for them - too risky. I am too risky, and they want me to just back down and do things they can relate to and claim - ain't gonna happen!  

Now, back to the CAD shop, to figure out how much "me" I can put in this frame, with or without anyone's help...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Last thing on my previous rant: In all fairness, I should point out that most people in Columbus really mean no harm. Their intention is to protect people and causes they care about from what they see as something harmful. It's a fear-based, clan mentality, of animal/human existence that is genetically ingrained, and has kept the species safe. There are some who, out of negative emotions like jealousy, envy, etc, try to interfere with the progress of others, but those people are generally recognized and _not_ a part of my life. The people I encounter on a daily basis, who "get in my way" and annoy me are good people, that are convinced they're helping me...


On to the matter at hand. I have been thinking through the new frame, and the reality of making significant forward progress with it amidst the constant barrage of _side gusts_. I need to bring it back to what I can do now, with what I have available, and what I can maintain proactive control of. That means what machinery and equipment Eric has given me full access to (all manual, no CNC at this point), and what would be reasonable to do at CIF, if necessary. I finally cornered Alex and asked what our biz-to-biz relationship is now; _i.e._, does my equipment use sponsorship deal end with my studio deal? He gave me a vague answer that indicated he was willing to negotiate some type of partial sponsorship. At first, I though cool, but as I chewed on that I realized that the equipment there is too slow. What I could end up paying for _improvising_ my way through a part on that equipment, I could probably just pay someone to simply make it for me. There are a few benefits, like general use of the welding and metalworking areas ($15 & $5 per hour respectively) for some things. The ShopBot not so much, as it takes like 10x the time to make stuff...

Geez, I'm long-winded!  You didn't really read all that, did you?!

The frame. I saved almost all of the roll cage tubing from Schism. I have enough sections of the big 1.625" tubing, with mandrel bends, to create the lower rails. First order of business was to see what the frame looked like with two normal bends and three straight sections, using that larger size tubing. The yellow lines highlight the simple shape of the lower rails.










I like it. There wasn't a huge difference, and the larger tubing seems to make up for it being a tad less _swoopy_. These rails will be cut, pieced, and welded - placing full control of the process in my hands. I will turn steel inserts for every joint where they're pieced together, which will be fully chamfered, and plug welded. The only downside to using what I have is this tubing is relatively heavy, thick-walled, NHRA-spec, cage tubing. We're talking maybe five extra pounds, so I'll just live with it. It will be incredibly strong though, and probably well-suited to street and stunt duties. I have a few more details to double check, but this could start almost immediately. Here's the composite rendering.









The plan would be to build this as a simple round tube trellis frame (with my attention to detail), and add a little more "me" to it later, with really elaborate CAD/CNC gusseting. That is what I was up to all along but, the base is much simpler this way, and the gusseting will be steel, so I have a bigger challenge later with the gussets.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is, IMO, worth subjecting you to more CAD renderings!  For the first time, ever, the appropriate Soliton motor controller actually fits in one of my designs. Scrape, with the new frame, can actually swallow a Soliton 1 - awesome! As mentioned, I got the point, from Major and Tesseract, about trying to push an AC motor, like the EV drag racers push the old DC motors. With respect to Scrape's mission in life, it really should have a motor that can be pushed, *hard*, not babied. The $20K, Remy/Rinehart, EVDrive package has enough power to do it safely, but at the cost of physically and financially dominating the bike; and, subsequently, changing its focus. I will continue to explore AC, but will build on DC right now. If I come up with an AC solution that matches or exceeds whatever I am able to accomplish with DC, I'll adopt it.

Look how easily I can tuck a Soliton 1 inside that frame! (The 3D model kludge is actually a hacked up Jr, stretched and contorted to the exact dimensions of the 1.) I also tweaked the trellis members for a more conventional, fit-n-TIG, build style. Previously, it had large spaces for large, elaborate, whittled aluminum, gussets. With steel, even in moly, they need to be smaller (lighter), so the spacing is conventional. 










Finally, I rendered the frame in light gray, to represent a satin clear, powder-coated, final finish. I am going to go with my love for natural materials, instead of paint. Mostly "raw" steel, aluminum, and carbon.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, great progress. Slightly negative question though, how long do you expect your little DC motor to last with a Soliton 1 wired to it?!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

You might need to factor in using a larger motor. Or some fancy cooling. Water spray for drag runs maybe?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, great progress. Slightly negative question though, how long do you expect your little DC motor to last with a Soliton 1 wired to it?!


That's not negative, that's a valid point. That 400hp controller is only allowed to give the motor what I say is okay. So, if I can be judicious in my use of its power the little guy might be okay, for a while...

The point in using the 1, over Jr, is the availability of 1000 amps; and as long as needed. Because of the voltage ceiling, due to commutation issues, you need current to make power with DC. Ideally, I would like to focus most of my development work on the battery pack and the motor. Having a super-refined, well-sorted, controller/inverter like a Soliton or a Rinehart, that is well within its parameters, facilitates that.






tylerwatts said:


> You might need to factor in using a larger motor. Or some fancy cooling. Water spray for drag runs maybe?


Thanks Tyler.  The plan is to start with "fancy cooling". Back when I was trying to reach the same stars with the Inhaler, I was toying with the idea of some type of (bottled) inert gas cooling. I will probably revisit that. All the reports I can remember reading from the drag racers was that the motor never got that hot - but - with me drooling over standing mile runs, I want to at least have the capability to keep my cool...

I also have a plan for better commutation. Nothing crazy at first, just better brushes, in a better rig - something I saw before that Major actually encouraged me to buy (I didn't win the auction).

When all that fails, and I finally melt my little motor, I do have room for a bigger one. One interesting thought I had the other night was a short, interpoled, 9" motor. Basically my 7" armature in a 9" case, with interpoles. The same philosophy as the Warp 11HV, which is a 9"-sized armature in an 11" case, to make room for the interpoles, and taller field coils.


And then, again, I still have an eye on AC. The point is to design a flexible platform that has many potential routes to follow towards the desired end, without losing its soul.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

The interpoled motor sounds interesting! 

How would an inert gas have sufficient heat capacity for cooling in comparison with water? Water spray cooling is fantastic! It is the only system that can effectively cool in the Arabian desert! Just saying. A litre of water cools alot and weighs much less than a can of gas. My opinion, please feel entitled to prove me wrong!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Doesn't work too well with brushed DC motors. A gas you could spray right into the motor, water, not so much.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...How would an inert gas have sufficient heat capacity for cooling in comparison with water? Water spray cooling is fantastic! It is the only system that can effectively cool in the Arabian desert! Just saying. A litre of water cools alot and weighs much less than a can of gas. My opinion, please feel entitled to prove me wrong!





JRP3 said:


> Doesn't work too well with brushed DC motors. A gas you could spray right into the motor, water, not so much.


What he ^^^ said. You don't want to blow water mist through a brushed motor. It will actually be sealed, as much as possible, to keep dirt and moisture out.

I wouldn't actually blow gas, directly, into the motor either. The gas would be used to chill the cooling air just before it goes in the motor. Using liquid nitrogen (LN2) for an example (because N20 would promote burning  and C02 is not a good thing for an EV to blow into the air):


boils at -196C/-321F
produces very dry nitrogen gas
used for cooling computers and extreme overclocking
used as a backup nitrogen source in hypoxic air fire prevention systems
etc, etc




The frame fixture is almost ready to weld up. I did the swingarm pivot pieces today. I drilled and reamed holes in a piece of bar stock, cut it in half; cut a piece of 1"sq. bar for a reinforcement plate; then smoothed and shaped all three pieces a bit. Just for practice and kicks, I used a radius tool, on the Bridgeport, to rough in the upper corners of the reinforcement plate; then finished them on the belt sander. Curt looked down at it, as I was mocking it up, and asked if I had purposely rounded it, and why, to which I replied, "because I'm Todd." 











Of course,then, I had to make the front reinforcement plate match. 








Actually, I am planning to go nuts on detailing this fixture because I see it being a part of my display at events, and in my place - whenever I finally decide what and where I want that to be.


Next, I am going to shave the bottom of the lower nut, on the Bridgeport, to match the angle that it meets the frame. That is to eliminate the gap, to eliminate any pulling and stresses, during and after welding.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I started working on the first actual new frame parts yesterday, the swingarm pivots. I just squared up the ends of this chunk of steel. Next, I will bore and ream the center hole to accept the pivot shaft, turn the outside a bit, and then split it into two bushings.










The bushings will be pressed and welded into the inside of these turned and machined steel outer pivot points. The bushing is not in this rendering, because I have some measuring and thinking to do, to design a system that works, and is easy to work on. The step is to complement the aesthetic of older Kawasaki steering heads (upper right corner). The big hole bored in the side is to accept the lower main frame rail. That will create a really strong connection that doesn't rely solely on the weld for integrity; and I have the option of squeezing the TIG torch in there, with a small cup, for inside welding.










The upper main frame rail will simply be notched to fit around the lower rail and pivot. The footpegs will thread in from the outside, with a contrasting metal bushing, for aesthectic value (shown here in copper). Even though I am building a more conventional, steel, trellis frame, I am not taking the easy way out. There will be a ridiculous amount of thought, design, CAD, and machine work, involved. The goal is a really beautiful, structural, art piece - that oozes classic motorcycle style. The point, which is what kind of stopped me in my tracks with this build, is that the frame is the motorcycle. It's what gets the VIN #, it's what everything else hinges on. In cars and trucks, that is usually the body (which gets the VIN #).









I asked Curt how consistent he thinks he can be with his TIG stacks (not reliably), and what is preventing it (setup, facilities, practice). That's the same hurdle I have - I can hit them sometimes, sometimes not. As a result, I am going to shop around for a TIG welder or shop to burn it all together, after I finish obsessing over fitment and get it tacked. It must be purty! 

I might do the tubing work at CIF too, as their shop suits the noise and grit of cut-n-grind better. Precision machining at Great Machine; hands-on metalworking at CIF...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The lathe and Bridgeport were unavailable yesterday, and I have a client's project on the agenda for today, so the only work I've been able to do on Scrape has been in CAD. I did grind that ugly hunk of welded tubing off the fixture, and sanded the upper surfaces for welding, but that wasn't really worthy of pictures, so CAD it is... 

I pulled the frame out of the mock-up to get a good look at it with the new outer pivots, tweak the alignment of the trellis members, and start thinking about where I am going to add more tubes. I will probably model the rear swingarm/shock mount section soon.










Then, I put the cleaned and tweaked version back in the mock-up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Without serious price shopping, just a quick peek on eBay, I can get a piece of 11" diameter, 6061, aluminum bar for about $300, shipped. If they have it at the local surplus place, I can probably knock 33-50% off that. So, $150-300 for the billet to cut the motor case. That's not bad. I had $300 in the billet just for the Inhaler's motor _mounts_.

I've been thinking about machining it, and figured out that I can do this myself, pretty reasonably with a couple tricks.


"Chuck up" the billet and turn the outside radius of the fins, and square one side, on the lathe.
Using a scrap piece of 0.750-1.000" plate machine a fixture plate, and locate the billet on the Bridgeport.
Square the other side.
Bore the center opening, using the Bridgeport's 2-axis CNC capability, probably halfway through.
Drill and tap end bell mounting holes, and machine lip, recess, etc.
Flip, relying on the fixture plate (I've had really, really, good success with this method), verify location by manually indicating again.
Bore center opening second half - if done right it will align perfectly (within a couple ten-thousands of an inch).
Drill and tap end bell mounting holes, and machine lip, recess, etc.
Attach billet to rotary table, indicate, and machine fins, with custom tapered end mill. That end mill is the key to the whole thing. If would allow me to simply rotate, cut, cut, cut, rotate, cut, cut, cut, etc; until a pile of chips and pool of coolant later, I'd have a fully machined, finned, motor case - like no other... 
If I could make a deal with Eric, I could do the machining part via CAD/CNC, rather than CAD/TP(me); same result less mental wear and tear. A 4-axis CNC _could_ do the fins with a regular ball end mill, but the lines of code and machine time increase so drastically it's still worth it to just have the custom end mill made and program it. This a really simple process and, honestly, I would have fun even manually machining that because all of the challenge is in being enough of a perfectionist to follow what CAD says, precisely. I am beyond weary of being in the shop, but there is still something kind of Zen about feeling and/or seeing a machine making chips (especially aluminum).


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd
Just an observation, but the Soliton looks odd and wrong when the base isn't parallel with the frame tube. Is it the viewing angle? If so, the same problem applies of tying them together properly. Any thoughts? 

PS: I love the frame!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd
> Just an observation, but the Soliton looks odd and wrong when the base isn't parallel with the frame tube. Is it the viewing angle? If so, the same problem applies of tying them together properly. Any thoughts?...


I agree 100%.  I was actually looking at it earlier today, thinking _why did I put the controller in there like that_?  Great minds, eh! 

I'll do a new rendering soon, with it actually parallel to the frame rail. I'm sure I had some reason for tilting it, though I have no idea what that reason was now... 






tylerwatts said:


> ...PS: I love the frame!


Thanks!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I thought it might be that the frame rail is not parallel to the side so as it opens up from that angle it looks like the Soliton is tilted. Was it clearance for the cable mounts? 

I'd love to build a fixture to build trellis framework on for a leaning 3-wheeler.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I thought it might be that the frame rail is not parallel to the side so as it opens up from that angle it looks like the Soliton is tilted. Was it clearance for the cable mounts?...


No, I definitely had it tilted in there. After thinking about it for a bit, I think it was a combination of expecting the front of the controller to not fit between the frame rails, and trying to get as much room over it as possible for BMS, etc. Then, I just left it like that. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...I'd love to build a fixture to build trellis framework on for a leaning 3-wheeler.


In my case, the fixture was kind of fun to figure out and setup. It will be done and ready soon. The thought of what I have to do, to satisfy my obsessive tendencies in notching and fitting all those tubes, almost makes me want to run and hide!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the midst of doing research for something else, I came across this and had to share. 

Tylerwatts, that looks like it should appeal to you.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Cool looking bike. Big flaw in the design, I see no separate feed of power to each wheel. It looks 50:50 power split. Definitely a no-no, imagine dumping half your torque into a skinny front Tyre leant over 45degrees and washing out the front end! Yamaha's hydraulic drive used on the yzf450 in the Dakar rally and trialled on an R1 in European racing is the ideal. Power only transfers in anger when slip occurs in the back end, otherwise only about 10% is transmitted normally.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That front suspension is definitely something I'd like to build myself some day, either as a single or twin wheel front end!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Cool looking bike. Big flaw in the design, I see no separate feed of power to each wheel. It looks 50:50 power split. Definitely a no-no, imagine dumping half your torque into a skinny front Tyre leant over 45degrees and washing out the front end! Yamaha's hydraulic drive used on the yzf450 in the Dakar rally and trialled on an R1 in European racing is the ideal. Power only transfers in anger when slip occurs in the back end, otherwise only about 10% is transmitted normally.


Yeah, I glossed over that just to observe the basic idea. I was actually looking at bikes, in Google Images, with idler sprockets instead of the traditional chain adjusters and that was in there. Made me look because it's interesting.



tylerwatts said:


> That front suspension is definitely something I'd like to build myself some day, either as a single or twin wheel front end!


I am not a fan of swingarm/hub-center steering front suspension. I guess I am too much of a traditionalist (in that sense). I don't like that gap, and lack of a direct physical connection between bars and front axle -- that connection says "motorcycle" to me. My favorite is girder, with Confederate being the current cream of the crop. Behind that a simple old pair of forks, done well, still does it for me; and I like some rockers I've seen.

So after the initial curiosity, I quickly grew tired of looking at that bike, before I dug into how it actually works.

How did the R1 do in road racing, with AWD? Has anyone used it successfully?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

It didn't have the outright speed of competition because of the awd so on faster tracks only just kept up with corner speed, but on shorter tracks it blitzed them! It was used in some road racing where it was great on the damp and loose roads. I think it got banned because of it's advantage in traction. 

The offroader was still available as oem model until a few years ago. I thought it would be better than electric drive on the front because it is alot lighter. The yanks have a mechanically driven 2wd that is as good, and transfers more power. I don't remember if they built a road bike. It is essentially a custom frame with all the original bits fitted and a special off take drive on the sprocket then chain up to the headstock and fancy gearbox to a telescopic shaft drive parallel to the forks to the front hub. Can't remember what it is called. It would suit an electric bike well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been curious for years about what AWD would be like on a bike. Someday, I'll get back to Squat and find out, albeit at a snail's pace...


In the meantime: When Scrape first started, it was my fun bike; still is actually but it has picked up a few extra mandates along the way. The original intent settled on demonstrating how electric vehicles work, and highlighting their function by showing (not hiding) the actual components, and providing a visually traceable flow of power through the system. Then, I added the performance goals that were previously the Inhaler's cross to carry. Finally, it evolved into my _corporate_ flagship; my number one marketing tool.

As a result, things that were perfectly acceptable early on, have become thorns in my creative side. First was the slow motion motor, and plan to move _up_ to a still slow Mars motor. Then, it was the dedicated dragbike riding position and profile. Then, the cookie-cutter GPZ900 frame. Now, probably to JRP3's delight, it's the battery box. It was perfect before, because it drew hot and cold response with its blatant, unapologetic, hard-edged, box form; and opened the doors for a LOT of conversation about it, the whole EV battery debacle, and Scrape's demonstration/racing intentions.

Going forward, I need something hanging off that big trellis frame that accomplishes much of that but, more importantly, adds to the aesthetic. I always liked little brother Squat's round "box", so I decided to try it here. Despite the massive size, needed to fit the required cells, it doesn't dominate the motor - in fact, it seems to highlight it. It definitely dials in more of the liter-class, big bike, feel I want. Chunky! 








Tyler I fixed the Soliton. 



Even though this box is pretty substantial, compared to the little one on the bike now, cornering clearance is still really good. It has full round side covers, that would have some techy-looking detail, but the actual box has concave sections, fore and aft, to allow clearance for the motor and front tire at full bump. I would be locked into no larger than a 9" diameter motor - absolutely no room for an 11" Remy, Yasa, or EVO. Here, it's stuffed with 200 of John Metric's Lipo Seduction cells. 370 or 740 volts; 900 or 450 amps, respectively; 3.33kWh; 446hp.











Back in the physical world, I drilled and split the outer swingarm pivot bushings. I still need to mill them flat and true on the cut side; as soon as the Bridgeport is free.










And, continued dissecting my AC motor. In addition of ridding it of the factory wiring, I needed to get a count of existing in-hand/turns.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Still not happy. It's a worse use of space than the square box, and the odd cutouts don't work for me, like you're literally trying to shove a round peg in a square hole. Might as well go for a full hourglass shape that wraps around the wheel and motor to fill in the empty spaces. Or a "T" shape that only fills in at the top and lets the pack be smaller at the bottom for more clearance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Still not happy...


Sorry you're not happy, but I am delighted to see the hot/cold design intent continue to draw pointed response. 

If most people react like that, or at least get stuck there and start asking questions/making comments, it will live up to its square-shouldered predecessor's _legacy_.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well I think you could make it look *good* and still generate discussion  Come on, a modified Todd "T" logo as a battery pack? What could be better?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Well I think you could make it look *good*...


Totally subjective issue. I always prefer hot/cold in design, as opposed to the, make almost everyone happy, middle ground.

Actually there were very few people who expressed a strong dislike of the box (you were their champion ). There were at least as many people who liked the fact that it was a "box", as there were who didn't like it. There were some people who warmed up to it, over time, and a few who really started to like it after understanding _why_.






JRP3 said:


> ...Come on, a modified Todd "T" logo as a battery pack? What could be better?


Lol, doesn't fit my design philosophy. If you look at my work, you'll see that I rarely ever do the forms-follows-function thing; meaning taking the natural form dictated by an object's function and trying to _dress it up_. I design forms that have function, and then challenge myself to equal or surpass the effectiveness of the pure function set. I am willing to pay the price in lost efficiency. Form always rules though...

On the other side of the spectrum, you have things like F1 cars which are totally effective, relatively efficient, and butt ugly; in my subjective opinion.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

On the technical side of design, I have been working through this break-it-down-stuff-it-in-the-back seat plan; mentally going through every step, and every affected area of the bike, and the car. I'm actually finding ways to improve a lot of things Kawasaki did on the original Ninja, and simultaneously make the bike "packable".

Today, I plan to spend most of the day and evening in what's called the Short North Arts District here; my favorite part of Columbus. Every first Saturday they have "Gallery Hop", which is supposed to be a showcase of all the galleries on the main street. In reality it's just a big, open, club type scene. There are people walking up and down the street, street musicians, petty cabs, the pedal while you drink beer bars on wheels, etc. People actually come to dress up, eat (lots of trendy restaurants), and drink; though a few do actually go in the galleries. It's really there every weekend, but the official Gallery Hop is the first Sat.

Last week, I imagined Scrape there and how I expect people to react to it. Today, I was thinking about the concept of stuffing it in the back seat and taking it there, then riding around on it. Then, I remembered that, at a park behind that main street, there are public charging terminals, which made me think about charging Scrape, while it's stuffed in the back seat - say while I enjoy a good meal somewhere. That made me think about putting a charging port on my Saturn, that would power a fast charger (that's too big to go on the actual bike). That setup would also serve me well at race/performance events, making Level II or III charging possible. (Plug car in, plug assembled bike into car) So, my little Saturn would be a very important part of the Scrape mission - it's support/tranport vehicle.

Just thinking out loud...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

The cylinder compliments the motor well in my opinion Todd. Controller looks great now also.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> The cylinder compliments the motor well in my opinion Todd. Controller looks great now also.


Thanks Tyler. 


Now that I think I've sorted out the basic foundation, I am starting to add more parts, and more detail in individual parts, to make sure the design doesn't get cluttered up and/or lost. I added my logo to the battery box end caps. Just a 0.125" deep machined recess of the background to make the outline version of my Bat-T pop a bit, and add some sophistication; and I added 0.125" sheet metal mounts, for the "box", curved to follow the upper main frame rail. I added a kinky chain (will fix eventually), a hugger fender, and a coil-over shock, to get the rear wheel tied into the design; and, finally, a poorly done shadow to get the bike closer to the ground, and out of digital space.









I still need to model the center section of the frame that mounts the arm and shock, and seat stays, and will probably, eventually, do the shock linkage; and wheel hub and spokes, and brake discs, and calipers.......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More lathe work today. I turned a couple aluminum spacers to represent the swingarm, and locate the outer pivots. I was going to turn these in steel and weld them to the fixture's swingarm pivot mount plates, but ultimately decided to retain the ability to make future changes easier with aluminum spacers.











Then, I resumed work on the pivots. I turned the steel cups that the bushings (in the photo above) will press into, and the pegs fit into, with contrasting metal bushings. I deviated from the CAD model, cutting the step deeper, and with a chamfered edge. Since that feature is mostly aesthetic (it does shave a few ounces), I just followed what I saw, and liked, developing on the lathe. The photo doesn't really bring out how chunky and solid they are. On the issue of weight: I am violating the racing orientation with some of the things I will be doing on this frame - these are much heavier than they need to be - but I am willing to pay that price to develop a sculptured look and feel.









I have to turn them to accept the pivot bushings, chamfer the inside edge, radius the outside edge, and then machine the socket (hole) for the lower frame rail.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good Todd. The rendering is coming together well also! It is going to be a beautiful creation.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking good Todd. The rendering is coming together well also! It is going to be a beautiful creation.


Thanks!  I'm getting closer and closer to cutting this thing up and stepping off the high dive...

Baby steps today. Since the mill and lathe were both busy making Eric money, I asked Curt to tack weld the parts that were ready, so it would stop falling apart every time I bumped it. He dove right in...











...and, I think he was having fun, because these were supposed to be tack welds, lol.











I turned the frame 180-degrees on the fixture, wide end to the front, to get a little extra clearance for the lower main rails near the steering head. I also picked up the 1.625" tubing from my storage unit a few days ago. It's in my trunk, ready.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

On the other side of the coin (from turning, machining, fitting, and welding, metals), I am still exploring DC vs AC, for this specific application. So far, Tesseract's and Major's assertions are playing out, and DC seems to be, at the very least, equal. In fact, in the mass migration to AC, it seems like a lot of (DC) potential is possibly being left on the table, that could possibly match the promise of AC. I am trying to look at this, objectively, from every conceivable angle; at every conceivable possibility.


Cost no object AC


The simplest plan is to plunk down $20K for an EVDrive 240hp, Remy/Rinehart system. Power goals pretty much accomplished in a swipe of plastic, performance goals a mixed bag.
Pros: Incredible power; refined professionally-built system; 10K RPM; _state-of-the-art_ AC technology; sealed liquid cooling.
Cons: It's heavy (127lbs motor and drive); it's huge and kind of dominates the bike; those two facts, combined with _just pay-n-go, _kind of change the point and purpose of the project.
Cost no object DC


This would involve using one of the two best DC controllers out (Soliton or Zilla), and developing a custom motor. The difference in price of admission alone leaves a lot of room for potential development?
Pros: The venerable DC motor will keep trying to make more power until something finally gives, unlike AC which has a designed in limit from the start; there are some ideas that have been tossed around to solve the commutation issue that have never been explored because of cost - when comparing to purchasing an EVD package...; Scrape presents a unique opportunity because I am starting with 7-8" motors, which have higher RPM capability intrinsically, compared to trying to spin a big 11" motor fast enough; with my and Scrape's super-featherweight status gearing can be optimized for speed, without the penalty of poor acceleration.
Cons: Solving the dilemma of reliable, high-speed, commutation; competently/effectively assessing the risk, to not waste months/years and thousands of dollars to end up where one started; challenge of effective air cooling that doesn't limit power and usage.


That's where I am - hashing through all this. It's really a close call, with a lot of time and money at stake, if wrong. Even though the DC option above is rather wordy, they're pretty similar on the scale; it just takes more to express/explain the DC idea.


The risks are:


The AC plan might compromise the bike too much, and might not actually live up to the numbers in real-world performance. Numbers on paper, and numbers on the track, don't always add up.
The DC plan might not deliver anything significant over the already impressive accomplishments made with DC, which might relegate the project to an "almost" final state.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Bridgeport was still busy, though Eric did give me a crash course on programming "conversational" machine operations, via its DRO, so I can machine the sockets in the swingarm pivots; and other items of evil design intent that have since flooded my mind. 

As soon as the lathe was available, I turned the cups to accept the bushings. I turned them for a slight interference fit, and with a chamfer for welding, even though the bushings will be positively located (trapped) between the cups (frame) and the swingarm.











Rather than try to get them centered on the lathe again, I did the chamfers on the bushings on the belt sander (they're just for weld penetration), and pressed them in. The next step will be to machine them flat, and perfectly even in length, on the Bridgeport; then weld.











A sneak preview of where they'll fit on the new frame.












While I was waiting for the lathe, I prepped the fixture for Curt to finish welding tomorrow morning, and then turned my attention to the little AC motor. After tearing into it, it became obvious that it's probably not my 200MPH motor (not enough slot space, for one thing) but I still like it, so I am going to keep going until I figure out _what_ to do with it. I have some interesting ideas, of course...  First, I extracted the stator from the steel case.










Then, finished _un-winding_ it.











Here's the rotor and stator together. The two foundation stones of my bright idea involve a custom aluminum housing, and shortening the shaft.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd
2 things
Why are you machining and then welding in the bushes rather than just making from one billet? 
Also, that is alot of iron on the od of the motor. That should be able to be trimmed dramatically, or drilled to run copper cooling pipes through to cool the stator!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If you've been following any of my threads here, you should know by now that I like exploring possibilities; which means a lot of crazy ideas get tossed around, and sometimes discarded, sometimes attempted. Scrape, from the beginning, was my equivalent of Woody's tractor project - a fun, creative, project to relax and enjoy the pursuit of ideas on. The racing goals complicate that mission sometimes but, since racing is in my DNA, also bring more enjoyment than pain (with a bike, where I have less outdated sanctioning body crap to accommodate).

While thinking about what I would do with the little AC motor, since it's not going to produce 250hp any time soon, I started thinking about future projects. I have had this plan lingering for a motor built into the swingarm of a bike - for which this little motor would be perfect. I started playing with it in CAD last night, before I lost consciousness, with Scrape's rear wheel. Somewhere between that and digging further into an actual rewinding scheme for it at lower power, the idea of an AC/DC hybrid hit me.


My DC motor mounted conventionally, and focused on its specialty - incredible low-end torque per lb of motor weight.
The little AC motor *in* the swingarm, kind like a jackshaft with a dual sprocket (chain from DC to AC to wheel).
Both running 200 volts max, gear reductions plotted to put each in its sweet spot at the right time.
DC motor accelerates the bike from a start, and AC motor comes online before the DC motor peaks (if not always on).
We've discussed this at least a few times, and concluded that the weaker motor will simply do less work.
DC motor completely cuts out at RPM limit, and AC motor keeps pulling up to its red line; almost like an electronic gearshift
Also have regen from AC motor.
Weight of the bike is minimally effected because the AC motor's guts are only about 15-20lbs and the extra material in the swingarm is all aluminum (the EVDrive, Remy-based, motor is 40% heavier than these two combined.
The biggest question is whether the AC motor would have enough power to keep the bike at speed or, ideally, accelerating faster? I do have longer range thoughts on how to improve its output (copper rotor, new laminations from better steel, etc).
A hybrid even DIYEC'ers could love?!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd
> 2 things
> Why are you machining and then welding in the bushes rather than just making from one billet?...


Courtesy. It was much easier on Eric's lathe and tooling than hogging the center out of a solid chunk of steel; and gets me out of the way faster. Last night, for example, I saw an opening in lathe time and quickly jumped on and got the cups cut for the bushings. Within an hour, I was set up, finished cutting, cleaned up, and off the machine. The time to do the cups was similar. I just turned the step for both cups in one quick shot, and was off the machine (cut them off on the bandsaw). Since I'm just shaving a little metal here and there, the tools stay cool and sharp and ready for when he needs them.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Also, that is alot of iron on the od of the motor. That should be able to be trimmed dramatically, or drilled to run copper cooling pipes through to cool the stator!


Standard fare for a 2-pole motor; more back iron, I assume to compensate for the low torque configuration. Trimming it isn't so easy - one would have to know what one is doing (be able to actually design a motor, rather than modify/hack one), to not kill it.

I have some ideas for cooling it in the new aluminum case. I can machine channels so that air/gas flows better around it and through the motor (the rotor to stator air gap is really tight - no flow there); and/or actual cooling passages in the case for liquid cooling, if necessary.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Guess where I've been all day? In the CAD shop, of course!  I just had to hash out that hybrid idea. This is just a "rough sketch". As the details sort out, I will start on real models of the AC/swingarm system, to produce the parts from. The way I have it here, the hugger fender is actually the brace and shock mount, and the motor case is (as intended) an integral part of the arm.











The real beauty of it is the fact that it's all bolt on. When the new frame is ready, and Scrape is back together, I just continue on as planned and install this setup when it's ready. If it flops, I go back to what I had, and build something crazy with the swingarm. The shock, obviously, has to move up over the motor; but by having both upper and lower mounts I can switch between the two, as needed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very interesting concept, even as just a single motor bike. Since the distance between the motor and wheel sprockets is fixed it should allow a belt drive without an idler instead of a chain for nearly silent operation.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Very interesting concept, even as just a single motor bike. Since the distance between the motor and wheel sprockets is fixed it should allow a belt drive without an idler instead of a chain for nearly silent operation.


I was supposed to do that on the other bike but, in my rush to make last year's Mini Maker Faire, I mounted the motor to the back to the frame. The idea, on that bike, was to make it easier to break down and stuff in the back seat - no chain, or belt, to undo/redo just pull the pivot pin.

I can't use a belt on Scrape, but you're right about that for a "normal" EV bike. The Beull sportbike guys who ride aggressively snap even the upgraded belts - I know I would destroy them. They typically end up converting to chain.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Todd: Earlier this year, My neighbor had an old, broken "Guzzi" he was selling. I had this flash moment where I mounted my spare AC50 on it to the original transmission (Coaxial). A nice compact pack made from 10 AH Headway cells at 130 DCV.....

Yah, just for a grocery getter. The mileage would be kinda short though...maybe 10-12 miles, (from my estimates of the packaging room), 
But still, I was excited for a couple of days anyways.

Miz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice Todd! Get it built! Could you have the AC motor as a redundancy also if anything happened to the DC whilst being abused so you at least had a 10kw motor to get you home? I like the arrangement also, and you can have a fat tyre and not worry about chain clearance. 

Just bear in mind that switching between the to your chain alignment will change either at the wheel or the DC motor


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Todd: Earlier this year, My neighbor had an old, broken "Guzzi" he was selling. I had this flash moment where I mounted my spare AC50 on it to the original transmission (Coaxial). A nice compact pack made from 10 AH Headway cells at 130 DCV.....
> 
> Yah, just for a grocery getter. The mileage would be kinda short though...maybe 10-12 miles, (from my estimates of the packaging room),
> But still, I was excited for a couple of days anyways.
> ...


Nice. You should have mentioned that, I would have begged you to build it! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Could you have the AC motor as a redundancy also if anything happened to the DC whilst being abused so you at least had a 10kw motor to get you home?...


Absolutely. I'll be able to switch either motor off or on, manually. Probably a "mode" switch on the handlebars. Initially it might simply switch between them, and combined. Later, with some electronic wizardry, it will cue different modes of interaction - like how aggressive the DC throttle mapping is, or what RPM it drops out; how aggressive the AC regens; etc.

10kW?! My name is Todd, and I am an excessaholic. I have visions of pushing this poor AC motor relentlessly to its limits, and then figuring out how to extend them, for more, more, more... 





tylerwatts said:


> ...I like the arrangement also, and you can have a fat tyre and not worry about chain clearance...


Yup, I could actually run a 330mm tire, and not have to mess with the front motor's sprocket. Hmmm, I might model that today - you know, just for kicks! 





tylerwatts said:


> ...Just bear in mind that switching between the to your chain alignment will change either at the wheel or the DC motor


Not even an issue. In the CAD model, all I had to do was flip the sprocket on the DC motor; I didn't have to move it.  That means that if, for some reason (like maintenance or upgrades), I switch back to the old swingarm, I would just flip or change the DC motor's sprocket and string the chain - no repositioning of the motor.

Modular design is my _thing_...






tylerwatts said:


> Very nice Todd! Get it built!...


Thanks!  I am really happy with Scrape now - it feels like it's my bike, not just a converted Ninja. I actually liked the converted Ninja, it's just that this is supposed to represent _me_, professionally. In that sense, it felt like I was almost pulling a con (compared to what I _can_ do), and not really living up to my own lofty expectations.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ooh one thing sir, if hammering scrape as you say, flipping sprockets is a no-no. Tooth wear both sides leads to thinning and snapping of teeth quickly! Just have a spare if it can flip either way. Once the sprocket is bedded in it should only drive one way ideally. 
I guess with heavy regen though you might wear it pretty quickly both sides, so maybe ignore me. Just a rule from off-roading experience...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Ooh one thing sir, if hammering scrape as you say, flipping sprockets is a no-no. Tooth wear both sides leads to thinning and snapping of teeth quickly! Just have a spare if it can flip either way. Once the sprocket is bedded in it should only drive one way ideally.
> I guess with heavy regen though you might wear it pretty quickly both sides, so maybe ignore me. Just a rule from off-roading experience...


That's a good point, especially as motor sprockets are generally pretty cheap. It could be a simple matter of swapping a bushing between the motor and sprocket too.

The DC motor sprocket shouldn't see any significant wear from regen, as it will be freewheeling at that point.




Today was another day of baby steps. I notched the rear brake bracket to clear the cup on the right side (it was clearanced for the smaller aluminum spacer before), and chamfered the outside edges of the cups. That is actually a sign of things to come. I had originally planned, and chucked it in the lathe today, to put a significant radius on those edges, but decided to go for the more "tech" style aesthetic. I think that's going to repeat throughout this build. I want the racing intent to shine through, unmistakably, and subtle cues like those chamfers reinforce the point.










Then, while staring at the bike, and mentally running through the frame build, over and over, I stuck the piece of tubing destined to become the new lower rails, roughly, in place to get a feel for it.











Beefy!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The seat stays help tie the rear wheel/tire in a bit more, and add to the tech theme.
'










I keep seeing these pics of new new Ducatis with painted frames, so I decided to try it on Scrape; not sure what I think about it. My first impression is it looks like one of those B&W ads or commercials, with a woman with bright red lipstick and 6" pumps.  I would do a candy (tinted clear) powder coat over glass-beaded raw steel, instead of paint, if I did...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I enjoy these drawings as much as the fab work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I enjoy these drawings as much as the fab work.


 Thanks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still throwing detail at it. One of three things happens, at this point in the design process:


It works, and what’s in my head comes to life.
It gets crowded, and the original concept is lost in chaos.
It fails utterly.
 Doors two and three mean I have a LOT of design work to do. Door number one brings it down to just a lot of work. I'm not really sure what I think yet...









This time: mock-up BST carbon 5-spokes, carbon on the body and fairing, and more detail in the seat (even though you can’t see it, on the bike, from this angle). I might do the carbon rotors soon…


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd the hump looks odd and not like it is flowing from or part of the frame top rail. The shock looks odd also, I think it should run up under the front seat mount. It also looks very front heavy at this angle, have you got a few more views please? Love the seat frame and the controller is scary lurking inside it's cage!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd the hump looks odd and not like it is flowing from or part of the frame top rail...


Maybe that's the broken texture pattern throwing you? The body hasn't changed, other than the texture.

In real life, it shouldn't seem that way, as it rolls up (convex) off the frame, and then sweeps (concave) into the hump. When I changed to streetfighter style I just modeled that hump, cut the foam, and spliced it into the front of the old body. That hump in the rendering is the model for that with a couple rough draft sides just to help me sort out the model, so you have to squint and imagine it a little smoother and more developed...






tylerwatts said:


> ...The shock looks odd also, I think it should run up under the front seat mount...


I disagree with you there. I love it. I have actually wanted to move it there all along, but didn't feel like changing it before.






tylerwatts said:


> ...It also looks very front heavy at this angle, have you got a few more views please?...


Not sure why you're seeing anything different with that? I've actually added mass to the middle and back of the bike, with the seat stays, AC motor, and hugger. That being said, my design _is_ purposely front-loaded...

I will get some additional angles rendered and posted when I can.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Love the seat frame and the controller is scary lurking inside it's cage!


Thanks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While I wait for the Bridgeport, and my brain stews on the coming frame build, I decided to shift gears and get a little work done on the tail light; something that isn't so critical. Friday, I brushed a few coats of PVA release film on the socket, and let it sit over the weekend.











Today, I cast a development plug with a little epoxy resin.



















I built up an extra .125-1875" inches on the outside to give me material to sculpt and match the lens to the aluminum. I had it pretty close to dropping in the socket, when my patience gave way to hunger.









The plan is to pull a silicone mold from the finished plug, and cast a couple/few clear tail lights with LED bulbs in them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

(Hashing out my thoughts, and probably next blog post, on your eyes... Sorry.)

A part of what I've been doing, with respect to design, is develop a working theme that satisfies the many needs I have tossed in Scrape's lap.


It was, continues to be, and must always be, my fun project. Scrape was my place to unwind, relax, and enjoy, when all my other projects and responsibilities seemed like a burden. I refuse to let that go.
It is now my racing/performance platform; which actually goes hand-in-hand with fun, because I can't seem to think about vehicles without desiring to explore their performance potential (makes them more fun). That actually happened because racing the Inhaler would be a ridiculously expensive proposition, that I just can't, personally, justify.
It is now my business flagship, the main marketing tool for my design work - so it has to represent what I do. That could be a conflict, but in this case it is working because I love what I do. It's fun to me, not work - when I am not constrained by too many boundaries. Motorcycles promote freedom of expression, so win-win.
As I have tossed all these seemingly incompatible ingredients together, I am developing a pretty nice plan. I am basically on a mission to inspire others, by racing my motorcycle, just for the fun of it! 



That engages me professionally, to design and engineer a capable race bike.
It keeps me in check, with regard to my perfectionist tendencies, because race vehicles don't have to be/would never stay - _perfect_. They're going to get chipped, and scratched, and worn; and that is a part of the patina that says they're the genuine article. So, my "attention to detail" gets channeled into more of a functional precision. Little marks, imperfections, and details, that would otherwise drive me mad, and consume countless hours to eliminate, look right and add something to the whole.
It keeps Scrape moving because it makes a lot of design concepts scalable - I can start with, lesser, hand-fabricated parts and systems, and work towards the crazy CAD/CNC, advanced process, stuff later, as speed increases. More show oriented projects depend more on that stuff as proof of (design) concept.
Off to the shop...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Front heaviness is probably the round battery box versus the old one. Mostly the angle of the views. Don't take my comments too seriously


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Front heaviness is probably the round battery box versus the old one. Mostly the angle of the views. Don't take my comments too seriously


Keep 'em coming. Even when I disagree, I'm always interested in what others see. 

Aesthetic design is subjective, so right or wrong, just perspective...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The tail light lens plug is almost there. I left a bit of "bubble" on it, to give it a little extra dimension.












I also spent a few minutes on the Bridgeport, milling the angle on the steering head post lower tapered nut. That means this fixture is ready to weld up, and it's almost time to start building a frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Another incremental CAD model update. I modeled a theoretical set of carbon rotors. Theoretical, because they're approximately the right size, and based on a pic I saw from a known manufacturer of carbon rotors of one with a 5-bolt mounting pattern (to match the BST wheels, with custom hats; in other words these exact rotors don't actually exist, of the shelf.









I like the weight savings, in the right place (unsprung); I like the fact that they would provide fade free, state-of-the-art, braking; and I like what they add to the aesthetic; but am also thinking that maybe I should just go with a decent set of sculpted steel rotors. Good visual, a fraction of the cost (of carbon), and the current brakes are already overkill... I might model them soon, for comparison.

Tyler, I'll work on some more views. Here's a quickie, ghosted, side view in the meantime...

I'm also toying with another version of the frame, that I should be able to share today or tomorrow. As I walk around the old frame on the fixture, and stare at the CAD renderings, I get the feeling that I am not going far enough; because I still have reservations about cutting the frame and digging in. Those reservations could be coming from my weariness of shop life and fabrication work, but they could also be because I simply haven't inspired myself - I need to determine which, before I starting cutting...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good Todd. Love the rotors.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good Todd. Love the rotors.


Thanks Tyler! 

It was a battle, but we got the fixture welded up today. After I did a lot of cleaning and prep work, Curt welded the threaded rod in the bottom tapered nut, then I set the fixture up and he tacked the steering stem on. That's when thing took an evil turn; that was all my fault! The frame was stuck on the fixture! 

The left side swingarm pivot bracket was hitting the lower motor mount when we tried to pull the frame off, for Curt to finish welding. I had to keep trimming it, a little at a time, until I got enough clearance to sneak the frame past it. About 30 minutes later, it was smooth sailing again. 

The two pieces of tubing are what started the new frame design effort. When I had them mocked up against the frame earlier this week, I saw something... Now, I am many hours into exploring it. Those two rails would run directly from the swingarm pivots, in a straight line (side view), and then turn in to the steering head. A single, fabricated backbone would run up the middle. Instead of the traditional, tubular, trellis members the sides would, eventually, be caged in with a CAD/CNC web-like structure; that would bolt on, but be structural, and probably aluminum. That's the teaser - hopefully renderings soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's the new frame, in Scrape v2.5. At this rate, I am going to have to go to two digits to the right of the decimal point, or an additional point (_e.g._, 2.x.x), to not run into Scrape 3.0 from the future!  (Numbers to the left of the decimal point are supposed to denote a major redesign; to the right denotes continuing evolution of a respective version).

The new frame design makes the concept totally original, my proprietary design; not a Ducati-esque twist. It also seems to lighten the front of the bike, visually - but - the side webbing isn't in the picture yet. It also highlights the Soliton 1 controller quite spectacularly.  I moved the rear shock down to the right side of the swingarm (same position as the stock Ninja's, just kicked to the side) to prevent spending countless hours making that high-mounted deal work. It would have required linkage to function properly, and space inside the cage was too cramped. Where I have it now was basically a gap, waiting for a purpose.









One thing I haven't done yet is turn the forks to see if they contact the lower frame rails - looks really close. If so, I also have tubing with milder angle bend, that would move the bend back, and narrow the tubing behind the forks.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I must say I love that frame Todd! I'd be keen to know whether it even needs bracing. The Soliton mounts should stiffen the side rails and the carbon backbone will massively stiffen the top rail to leave the frame open. Love it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> I must say I love that frame Todd! I'd be keen to know whether it even needs bracing. The Soliton mounts should stiffen the side rails and the carbon backbone will massively stiffen the top rail to leave the frame open. Love it!


Thanks Tyler!  Honestly, it's probably so over-engineered for a 300lb, straight-line, bike that it doesn't need any additional bracing - I just always think from a star-shot, backwards. Initially, the bike will go together with just the basic frame. If I find any hints of flexing, I have designed it with the web bracing in mind. Also, because what I have in mind is bolt-on, they could also only be used when needed - racing.

You're also correct that the controller's mounts will stiffen the lower rails. I am considering a CAD/CNC aluminum and/or titanium web that bolts in there too (with holes, slots, studs, etc, for the power electronics). The plan for the body is, currently, just a cosmetic shell but it could be made structural, if necessary.



Next, I need to turn the forks, to see if they clear, and then hash out the rear section of the frame, under the seat...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Have you posted any drawings in here of the rear brake system? I can see how nice the lack of a shifter looks, but curious of how the rear brake will look.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Have you posted any drawings in here of the rear brake system? I can see how nice the lack of a shifter looks, but curious of how the rear brake will look.


No renderings, because I haven't modeled the rear brakes; at least not yet. It has to be there, and I prefer that the linkage and function be as simple as possible (pretty much what's there), so maybe just a custom reservoir, and detailing...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I would think that on a bike like this one, less is more...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I would think that on a bike like this one, less is more...


That would reign true, as an aesthetic principle, except for the fact that I need a conventional rear brake system for control. I considered a linked system, with a proportioning valve to adjust the bias, but not for a race bike. Those instincts (which end needs more/less brake and when and how) are burned in over almost four decades of riding. In addition to just adjusting the bike's _attitude_, my right foot (brake) has also allowed me to avoid undesirable _obstacles and situations_, aka, "lay it down" (purposely). 



As I suspected, they hit. They made definite contact at a mere 10-degrees, and were more than halfway through the tubing at what I estimate to be full lock (25-degrees). Too much to notch and reinforce the lower rail, and a cement truck would beat me in a turning circle competition, with a ~10-degree lock! 











So, I remodeled it with the milder bend. I will pick this tubing up from my storage unit tomorrow, and verify the angle (I have about 40-degrees here). Plenty of clearance at full (estimated) lock. I'll verify all this a million times, but I think I have a plan...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am liking the look. Will there still be triangulation tubes in the new frame design?

I was also wondering about the rear brake, as you don't have a clutch lever on the bars have you thought about having the rear brake as a lever on the left bar like on a bicycle?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I am liking the look...


Thanks Woody!  How have you been old friend?





Woodsmith said:


> ...Will there still be triangulation tubes in the new frame design?...


I have a plan for bolt-in triangulated sides that I have been calling "webs". I'm kind of thinking that I won't really be able to flex this frame enough to need them, but I do have a plan for them, if so. This is four sections of race car spec, 1.625", DOM, tubing; which will also be gusseted around the neck and swingarm section, with "webbed", alloy steel, gussets. The upper tube is actually a fabrication from two round tubes, with internal gusseting, and thin section plating, to create the oval tube look. In other words, this thing will be pretty strong, and probably a bit heavy for what it is. Complete overkill...






Woodsmith said:


> ...I was also wondering about the rear brake, as you don't have a clutch lever on the bars have you thought about having the rear brake as a lever on the left bar like on a bicycle?


Again, it's a riding/racing thing. I don't want to create a bike that requires specialized skill to ride. I want it to just feel like a really great motorcycle. The clutch lever is what you pull, in a crisis, to free the rear wheel. Making that mental adjustment to it being the rear brake, would mean anyone that rode Scrape would have to learn it to appreciate it, and I would have to mentally adjust to ride other bikes aggressively - too boxed in.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cool!

I guess when on the edge you don't want to have to second think what you need to do to control the bike.

I have been well(ish) and busy with house renovation and trying to find more paying work I can cope with.
I'll pm you soon to keep the home life stuff off your thread.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I think those lower rails suit the look better since they have a nice bend but the short straight to the headstock adds a slightly rigid functional intent to the design like you wanted a fluid yet purposed shape in the frame. I think it improves the look. 
Personal prefrance but I like it. 
Would you mind putting some spokes in that rear sprocket, or is it intentionally solid? It's bugging me and spoiling the rear wheel. Again my opinion, unless I can understand some intent. Love the shock location btw, showing off its function!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Cool!
> 
> I guess when on the edge you don't want to have to second think what you need to do to control the bike...


Exactly. 






tylerwatts said:


> Todd I think those lower rails suit the look better since they have a nice bend but the short straight to the headstock adds a slightly rigid functional intent to the design like you wanted a fluid yet purposed shape in the frame. I think it improves the look.
> Personal prefrance but I like it...!


Thanks Tyler! . I retrieved those pieces from storage - almost time to build it! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Would you mind putting some spokes in that rear sprocket, or is it intentionally solid? It's bugging me and spoiling the rear wheel. Again my opinion, unless I can understand some intent...


I agree actually; just haven't gotten around to fixing that. It's just a part I downloaded from McMaster - def needs some attention...






tylerwatts said:


> ...Love the shock location btw, showing off its function!


Thanks! Packaging on motorcycles is fun because so much stuff is exposed. When you get it just right it adds something to the whole, aesthetically, and functions great.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been trying to model this and get it posted ALL DAY!  First, my old, tired, laptop was overwhelmed with all that I was asking it to do; then, I got an invitation to join the Great Machine crew for brunch; then, after fighting the rest of the way through the modeling, I got sidetracked in upgrading my cloud storage and cleaning up some space on my hard drive...

Finally, I have a rendering to share. 

The actual tubing I had in storage was a bit different than what I thought I had (and modeled). The bend is even milder (less angle), and the lengths on either side of the bend are almost closer to being equal. It moves the bend back, and tapers into the steering head more gradually. That pinches the controller's space a bit. Sorry Evnetics, but I think I would put a sanding drum to the corner of the Soliton, before I would notch my frame.  A little JBWeld and it'll be good as new!  I had to push the controller back and lower, to get down to just a nipped corner.









Other than that, I held a piece of the tubing up to the frame, after brunch, and it looks pretty straightforward...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not just have a little more bend put in the tube to clear it?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Why not just have a little more bend put in the tube to clear it?


I considered that, and haven't ruled it out. The natural course of long-term development reveals things that weren't planned or intentional, that bring fringe benefits and nice course corrections. When that happens, I like to follow along, at least in theory, to see _what's in it_.

All that babbling means, the pinched frame rails created a leaner appearing bike, which reminded me that I have always liked the fact that Scrape is so narrow, and is a blast to ride because of it. Tyler was dead-on in his assessment of the change to the milder bend, and I saw even more of the old Scrape in this version, so I am running with it - at least in CAD - for a bit.

What I think you _will_ like is what's coming next. I was actually on my way to the CAD shop to get something out that I see in my head, for the battery box.  I keep getting distracted with notices of new posts, emails, a woman on a dating site, FB crap...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ooohh, battery box tweaks  Not to distract you further from that, but my initial reaction to the narrower frame was that it was too narrow and took some of the "strength" and "power" away, (in looks, not structure).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Ooohh, battery box tweaks  Not to distract you further from that, but my initial reaction to the narrower frame was that it was too narrow and took some of the "strength" and "power" away, (in looks, not structure).


Yeah, it's your fault it's taking so long! 

I thought that too, but then I saw something else, that led to the new battery box idea, that I just have to chase. In typical _Todd_ fashion, it's going to delay work on the CAD model, work on the frame, and the expansion of the universe, while I look into it. 

By the time I, finally, got started on it last night - I was too tired to effectively translate my idea into CAD. I did get a rough start underway, before my head started bobbing uncontrollably. I was literally falling asleep with my fingers pressing keys and waking up to find parts being drug off into neighboring galaxies, streams of single letters typed into the command bar, etc...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What I saw in the last rendering with the, admittedly weaker appearing, frame rails is, the hybrid drive system dominating the bike, and filling the area where you would expect to find it with _real_ mechanical sophistication. I have been using visual design tricks to cover for the fact that a generic cylinder and block of batteries replace all the curves, and bumps, and dips, of an exposed IC motorcycle engine. I exaggerated some forms, making them look bigger and stronger, to make it interesting to look at. Suddenly, finally, Scrape doesn't need tricks anymore. In fact the hybrid drive and Soliton are so stimulating that I wanted to pull attention away from the battery pack, and blend it into the bike - for the first time ever on this bike. So, I did. In execution, this would probably be a thin-section, cut-n-bend, aluminum sheet metal box, with carbon fiber epoxied directly over it. The aluminum is relatively easy to form a core from, and provides an inner fire barrier. The sandwich of the two materials would be uber-strong, and very light. The harder edges and bends, instead of my usual organic curves, are to continue on the "chiseled" racing theme that has been developing. Think how a jeweler cuts a precious stone.











All together, an ultra slim, lean, real, race bike.












The polar opposite of the original "box", the purpose of this carbon box is to bridge the gap, balance the bike, and add a little sense of mystery to what's happening in that space.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

About time


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> Y I was literally falling asleep with my fingers pressing keys and waking up to find parts being drug off into neighboring galaxies, streams of single letters typed into the command bar, etc...


I can't tell you how many times I've done that. 

I like where your going with the battery box. I think it balances the look of the bike and it should give you a better shot at those high MPH numbers you are shooting for than the round box would.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> About time






dedlast said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've done that.








dedlast said:


> ...I like where your going with the battery box. I think it balances the look of the bike and it should give you a better shot at those high MPH numbers you are shooting for than the round box would.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill.  When Scrape and I take a shot at the big MPH numbers, it will likely have a few aero treatments. The round box, as it was, would let too much air go under the bike. This box, as it is, would require pushing more air than necessary.

Off the top of my head: I can see the need for a taller fairing, to direct the air over my helmet; a big aero fender to direct it around the front wheel; a pair of carbon "chaps" to keep that air flowing around me and the sides of the bike; and possibly something behind me to help put it all back together...

Ever see Lightning in Bonneville trim?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now comes the challenge of seeing if the 10lbs of necessary ingredients will even fit in this 5lb bag of bike.  Neither the Orion BMS or the RMS drive will fit over the Soliton, with this current combination. I tried lowering Sol, but still a no-go. So I modeled a (rough draft) custom enclosure that fits the space, to find how how much space there is - approximately 350sq-in internal volume, rounding down significantly. I had been thinking that I would stuff the AC drive under the motor, using the former lower shock mounts on the frame to attach it to the bike. I overestimated that space a bit. Here, I have an enclosure approximately 9x8x4" - maybe 250sq-in internal volume; not enough for a suitably powered inverter. Bring on the countless hours of design, to make this all fit and work...









I warned you there were going to be a LOT of renderings!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is there a more compact BMS than the Orion that you could use? Is there enough open space under the hump to stick something in there?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I missed a few days and wow, scrape has grown leaps and bounds. Love the frame and I absolutely get your vision of emphasising the motors and Soliton. 

Now the packaging challenge! Let's see you astound with your creativity sir! 

PS, less box and more sculpture for the controller and electronics will help a great deal! What about a belly pan shaped housing under the motor and swingarm? Might need to reconfigure the layout of the controller, or build your own from jheubner's kit, with custom aluminium cooling fins profiled like a belly pan and hanging down! Maybe square off the bottom of the DC motor also for a bit more space?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is there a more compact BMS than the Orion that you could use? Is there enough open space under the hump to stick something in there?


Probably I haven't done a lot of research on BMS systems yet. I liked what I read on Orion's site, evmetro seems to swear by them, and they have free CAD models, so digital Scrape got Orion BMS. 

I have a little space under the hump, but need to close the surfaces so I can check the volume It's pretty small though, and where would I put my speakers then?! 




tylerwatts said:


> Todd I missed a few days and wow, scrape has grown leaps and bounds. Love the frame and I absolutely get your vision of emphasising the motors and Soliton.
> 
> Now the packaging challenge! Let's see you astound with your creativity sir!
> 
> PS, less box and more sculpture for the controller and electronics will help a great deal! What about a belly pan shaped housing under the motor and swingarm? Might need to reconfigure the layout of the controller, or build your own from jheubner's kit, with custom aluminium cooling fins profiled like a belly pan and hanging down! Maybe square off the bottom of the DC motor also for a bit more space?


Thanks Tyler. 

I'm definitely going to spice up that box - was just testing the available space there. 

Its definitely going to be a jhuebner kit. In fact, I was just asking him about the physical size earlier and it seems like the power stage (inverter) will fit there, with the electronics (controller) located remotely, in the cradle of the frame.

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another possibility is to put part of the BMS off board. Assuming you'll be using a top balancing BMS you only really need it hooked up when charging. While riding all you need is a low cell voltage signal in case one or more cells goes too low.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Another possibility is to put part of the BMS off board. Assuming you'll be using a top balancing BMS you only really need it hooked up when charging. While riding all you need is a low cell voltage signal in case one or more cells goes too low.


I really like that. I could use the space over Sol for the jhuebner control unit, dc-dc, etc.

BMS would be with the off board charger.

Good thinkin'


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You know guys, I have to admit that this project really kind of caught me off-guard.


It started as a simple, super cheap, ICE resto project to get me back on two wheels (of my own) after a long hiatus.
It evolved into my equivalent of Woody's tractor project, after determining that I wanted no parts of the ICE Kawasaki created (that particular engine, not all ICE).
It assumed the mantle of my flagship design *AND* racing/performance project, when all the number-crunching determined that doing so with the Inhaler was going to require a much larger investment of total resources than I could personally justify. (This was an evolutionary step that I was actually a little uncertain about, because it had the potential to kill the "fun" mandate). Nope - the fun got funner! 
It has evolved into pretty much everything I want in a project - all wrapped up in one nutty shell. 
I was staring at the latest rendering this morning thinking through what I need to do and where I need to go next, and it just kind of hit me - _this is it!_ This really is the project I have been chasing for the last three decades. Scrape, simultaneously, takes me _there_, and draws _it_ out of me.


That's funny to me because I have been subconsciously thinking of it more as a stopgap, until I figured out where I _really_ want. Even in reference to the flagship mandate, I was really viewing Scrape as a current flagship, until some undetermined point in the future.


This all means I need to step up my game, and give the little superbike what it deserves - my best.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Shameless bump. I hate putting new renderings and pics up as the last post in a page, then talking about them on the next page. 

How about a blast from the past, to make this a valid post. In the beginning...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had a small project to do at Columbus Idea Foundry today, and packed my laptop and tablet, so I could work from there today, for a change of pace. The _spirit_ of the place felt right for CAD work, but since my thoughts aren't sorted out enough for any new parts, I turned my attention to the details. I have always modeled my vehicles with digital slicks because I never took the time to work out my process for creating tread, so that's what I decided to go for. As much as getting a little more detail on Scrape, this was about being able to do tire tread, quickly, and comfortably. I got the rear tire modeled, and also bumped the rear wheel diameter up from 17" to 18"; a detail I missed before. Tomorrow the front tire...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. I can't see the tread in the dark rendering. Well barely. They look good though. Thought you might be able to tweak the lightning to show them off a bit. What about that sprocket sir?!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. I can't see the tread in the dark rendering. Well barely. They look good though. Thought you might be able to tweak the lightning to show them off a bit...


I did. I actually changed the colors and textures of the surfaces to define the tread; then used gloss, which a tire wouldn't have, to better define the edges and depth of the grooves. Then, in Photoshop, I threw contrast at the tread surface until they started to look fake, like cartoon tires, then backed up.

If your screen is that dark that you can't see the tread, you might be missing a lot of the little details. That's the hard thing about digital art, over the internet. You can put enough contrast in, so that people can find the details, but you can't determine what it's going to look like on all the different devices that people use.

Scrape is a really dark bike, and that's a copy of a pretty sporty tire (meaning there are only a few lines of tread cut into a lot of rubber surface, for more contact patch), so those facts may be compounding the issue. That angle also doesn't help, as all you're getting is a glimpse of the thread surface. I'm just adding details because your eyes catch all those things, in real life. They help determine what you actually see; so I'm trying to get a better idea of the big picture.

See if you can adjust your screen's brightness/contrast, and/or move your head around to find the lightest view. I'll see if I can pull anymore contrast out of the rendering, without making it look cheesy.





tylerwatts said:


> ...What about that sprocket sir?!!!


I'll try to do that first today, before I get lost in that front tire.  I usually remember it after I've worked for hours, and then do a new rendering...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

No worries. Don't go to great lengths on the tyres. If I zoom so the screen has chance to recognize and define different surfaces it shows up. Using my mobile as a tablet on tapatalk, sorry. Thanks for caring so much. It's you who needs to clearly see your vision. Reality will share it once scrape is shredding rubber!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> No worries. Don't go to great lengths on the tyres. If I zoom so the screen has chance to recognize and define different surfaces it shows up. Using my mobile as a tablet on tapatalk, sorry. Thanks for caring so much. It's you who needs to clearly see your vision. Reality will share it once scrape is shredding rubber!


I was wondering if that's what it was. I looked at it on my cell, after I made that last post, and couldn't see the thread either. 

Actually, thank you for communicating what you see, or don't see; like and don't like. I have no idea how it's perceived _out there_, unless someone tells me. I love getting feedback. Some designers and artists are protective of their work, and don't like negative feedback. I like when my designs get either, so I can gauge them against, public preferences, current trends, long-standing traditions, etc.

I gotz thick skin.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Chips and coolant smoothies today! 










Backing up a bit, first I did this. The Bridgeport was free today, and despite not being in the mood, I knew I'd better take advantage of the opportunity. I started by machining the insides of the outer arm pivot cup and bushings flat.











Now, continuing from the first pic: in addition to getting them ready for a little Curtis Coles TIG work, that let me clamp them in the vice to machine the pockets to receive the lower frame rails.











These little boogers have been a long time coming, but they're finally ready. 











Even with having to force my grumbling, murmuring, self to do it, I managed to walk away with a perfect fit. I really love this. 










A sneak peek at what's about to happen. Now, I think I want to turn a new steering head, to better match the quality of pivots. I was thinking, while machining the pockets in the outer pivots, that it would be cool to machine them in the steering head to, so the frame goes together like LEGOs (but is TIG'd, of course) - no notching, and much stronger...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to CAD today. I did the front tire, and the rear sprocket, for Tyler ! Nothing special or specific on the rear sprocket - just made it look more like something you'd see on a race bike, and less like something off an industrial machine. I put more gloss in the tires, to make the tread show up better on various devices (I hope). I still need to play around with the direction of the lighting. I'll be in CAD for a bit, because I need to to see if making what's in my head is feasible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is what I have in mind for the steering head. It would be turned and machined from the same 2.25" O.D. x 1.488" I.D. steel tubing I used to create the outer pivot cups. First the bearing race counterbores (not shown here) would be turned in the ends, then the upper and lower chamfers. Next, it would go in the four-jaw chuck, with an offset drilled cap in the other end, and the offset center recess would be turned. This is to remove weight, and add aesthetic detail, while maintaining a lot of structural mass in the high stress areas. I would have to fabricate a fixture to locate it on the mill to bore the four holes for the frame rails. Between those holes, the center recess, and the bearing race counterbores, a decent amount of weight would be shed; though it would, admittedly, be _a pound or so_ heavier than necessary. 











The tubes slot into the pivots and the steering head, then are TIG'd, creating what should be one helluva string frame, if a little portly for a race bike. I also decided to leave the upper rails as twin round tubes, rather than plating them to create an oval tube. They'll have notched tubular crossmembers along the length, including one for the seat mount.











All together...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good Todd. One thing worries me, with all the welding in that headstock I'd worry about the amount of heat and contracting could distort or twist the headstock enough to influence your geometry and handling. Food for thought about how to assemble it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good Todd. One thing worries me, with all the welding in that headstock I'd worry about the amount of heat and contracting could distort or twist the headstock enough to influence your geometry and handling. Food for thought about how to assemble it.


That's what all the work on the frame fixture was about. It positively locates the steering head perfectly perpendicular to the swingarm pivot, and at the correct steering axis inclination (rake angle). That's standard procedure in building a motorcycle frame - the fixture makes sure it's straight, and the bike goes where you point it, safely.

Also, the welding process has a lot to do with it. You never weld all on one side, or in one area, too long. You alternate and move the heat zone so that it pulls the metal as evenly as possible as it contracts. That helps eliminate stresses in the frame from the metal trying to move and the fixture saying no, stay put.

Finally, fitment is everything. That's what my over-the-top, Todd-style, pocketed joints are about, compared to the traditional fishmouthed, notched, joints. With absolutely zero gap (even a _perfectly_ notched fit is actually a small gap), the tubes pull less as the metal contracts.

Can you tell I've put a little thought into this?  Always listening though, to see if someone catches anything I missed... Keep it coming!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Cool! It is going to be a sick frame! Just noticed in your rendering, how do the top tubes were the lower tubes around the swingarm pivot? They seem to hang in fresh air and I can't work out how they tie together. Is the horizontal tube meant to be an arc, or will traditional side plates link them and provide brake lever and cylinder mounts? 

PS could you use a left lever and master cylinder with hydraulic transducer as a regen modulator? Bit complicated, but like set 30% regen as norm and more with the left foot. Or left hand... It plagues me what to do with them without a clutch or gears... Just old habit I guess. Night dude!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

PS, tyres look great now, I didn't say before.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Cool! It is going to be a sick frame!...


Thanks Tyler!  The frame is living up to my expectations and the mandate I set for it early on:


toddshotrods said:


> ...This frame is intended to be my best CAD work, and signature piece that makes Scrape my best design work - ever. The result is supposed to be an effective representation of my "more than three decades" of this mess.


It's not my normal cut-it-from-a-solid-block, on a multi-axis CNC, oriented CAD design work. It's showing the design process, the thought behind an evolutionary design product; and the process of CAD-to-CNC in areas (_e.g,_ the steering head, arm pivots, and coming sculptured gussets) that tie the comprehensive design concept together.





tylerwatts said:


> ...PS, tyres look great now, I didn't say before...


Thanks! I was hoping they would show up better with the lighting changes. I think there's still a little more detail available with the plain CAD render. I'm might have the whole model rendered in something like Maya for real photo-realistic textures - when I'm finally finished changing it! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Just noticed in your rendering, how do the top tubes were the lower rails around the swingarm pivot? They seem to hang in fresh air and I can't work out how they tie together. Is the horizontal tube meant to be an arc, or will traditional side plates link them and provide brake lever and cylinder mounts?...


I haven't modeled that section yet. There will be some small diameter tubing and whittled metal that ties the upper and lower tubes, the rear center section of the original Ninja frame, and that horizontal tube together. I need to get the upper and lower rails set before doing that, because every time they change the design for that section has to change. That's one of the hurdles with getting this far into a design - every change begins to affect everything around it, so simple changes can actually be massive design efforts. In parametric modeling, in an assembly of parts, every change you make to a part is reflected throughout the entire assembly - BUT - it will also not allow, or at least try to prevent, changes that can't flow through every part. I can actually redesign and remodel an entire NURBS assembly in the time it takes to model one parametric part - the reason I work so much in Rhino. Either way, those hours add up really fast though. I am at about 2600 hours in Scrape (from the day I pitched the ICE), right now; and counting...


On that note: I am close to putting side and three quarter views of digital Scrape in SketchPad and doing some creative chicken scratching on them, to make this foundation (that I am finally at peace with) "pop"...








tylerwatts said:


> ...PS could you use a left lever and master cylinder with hydraulic transducer as a regen modulator? Bit complicated, but like set 30% regen as norm and more with the left foot. Or left hand... It plagues me what to do with them without a clutch or gears... Just old habit I guess. Night dude!


I thought about that a lot, in the beginning, but the funny thing is I don't really miss any of that when I am on the bike. It's so engaging that I literally forget about all the stuff I'm _not_ doing. The last ICE I was on was a new Ducati and, while it was definitely a sweet bike, all the stuff I had to do to get and keep it moving seemed crude in comparison. It has it's appeal. Executing a perfect shift on an expensive transmission, feeling the gears literally slot in rifle bolt style, the engine come back on line with well-timed and smooth clutch action, is rewarding - but it made that new bike feel like I was riding a really old vintage bike.

So I have started thinking about more techy things for my left hand to do, that complement the experience - think swiping and pinching on a touch-screen smartphone, as opposed to popping keys on the keyboard, or rolling the trackball, on an old Blackberry.

The left foot is still just down there - I don't have any plans for it yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today, I am doing some contract CAD work on a (non-military, commercial) drone!  It should be relaxing and inspiring, and hopefully have some positive effect on Scrape...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I used SketchBook to help sort out my thoughts on the AC inverter today, and then accidentally deleted the file.  I just wanted to get an idea of what the basic shape I have in mind would look like, before investing too much CAD time in it, so mission accomplished. I had originally planned to do some crazy CAD/CNC sculptured aluminum, but it looks more like it will be a hammered and welded aluminum sheet metal enclosure. The idea is for the front to snorkel a little cool breeze from the battery box, and also sneak the power cables back there. It's a little longer run that way, but it's cleaner, and that motor won't be doing a ridiculous amount of current. Finally, it creates, as Tyler suggested, a belly pan to finish off the bottom of the bike and help clean up the aero down there.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks sweet Todd, and really fits with the big 18" rear wheel.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh, don't let your wee DC motor vanish into that void.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks sweet Todd, and really fits with the big 18" rear wheel.


Thanks!  The new battery box looks like a sportbike fairing to me, so I just had a little fun with the inverter case, extending that aesthetic; which is what led to a more organic form, instead of, tech-style, whittled billet. If the former round box was there, I probably would have done something more geometric, less fluid.

I've also been looking at a lot of mega-buck supercars (Lambo, Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren, etc), and supercar concept art, in my FB feed, which is influencing my design work on Scrape a bit.





tylerwatts said:


> Oh, don't let your wee DC motor vanish into that void.


It shouldn't get lost, if I do it right. The goal is to kind of draw attention to the hole in the middle of the bike, causing people to notice the radically finned little creature lurking in it.

The same power flow path Scrape has always displayed, just a bit more integrated into the whole. The battery box is less blatant, but I have some tricks in mind to, again, subtly draw attention to the fact that it contains a missive amount of power. Then, follow that up to the brains, down into the finned torque monster, back to the integrated little screamer, and out through the fat rear wheel and tire...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ive just been mentally sorting through the frame build, trying to make sure I have covered all the bases, and that I am really content with the design. The Bridgeport will be available next weekend (11-13th), so that's my best opportunity to get the machine work on the neck done. I will probably start turning at least the basic shape early next week, so it will be ready for machining by the weekend.

In the meantime, how about a look at Scrape's dark side?  I have been curious about what it would look like with most of the aluminum anodized black. I never did it before, because it was time-consuming to break apart all the various parts and sub-assemblies, anodize the aluminum, and reassembled them; saving special black copies of the more complicated stuff. I think I like it.  If I do it, as shown, certain parts would be left bright for contrast; e.g., rotor hats, coil-over shock, seat pan, plus fasteners, etc. The frame is still bare metal. This would be my way of making it pop, like Ducati paints theirs bright red.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Like it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Like it!


Thanks!  I think that's the plan for final finishing...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the frame design finally pretty much settled, my attention goes to all the things that get attached to it. Like, if that Soliton 1 _is_ the final control mechanism, what occupies that space in the meantime? More specifically, how do I integrate all the components of the current mash-up, and keep the spirit of the CAD model flowing? The answer begins with a custom baseplate; the exact dimensions and with the exact mounting pattern of the 1. First on deck is my custom little air-cooled Alltrax. When I get it all sorted out, I will pull some aesthetic tricks over and around everything to make it look appealing. 










The real trick to this is it can serve double duty in the Inhaler. A Soliton 1 looks awesome on top of the big-13, and this little rig should too. I will be working to make it as plug-n-play as possible, so I'll be encouraged to drive the Inhaler occasionally. Eventually, even when I have two complete systems, this interchangeability will allow me to purchase only one Soliton, etc, so whichever one needs to move fastest can and the other will still be operational.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I am trying to gear up for some machine work this weekend, but I really don't want to do it. I was in the shop most of last week, and my allergies have _finally_ just settled down. IF, I do the plan is to try to knock out the steering head and the splicer/gussets for the upper frame rails. I am usually always in the mood for a little CAD work, so I hashed out the coordinates for the splice/gusset machining process, and verified them in Pro/E. I was originally going to do inner connectors, but decided to do pockets in plate steel, then totally Swiss cheese it, for weight and aesthetics. This is one the front connector. The four remaining inner tabs positively locate each tube. On the others the holes will be completely through-bored; no tabs. The tabs present the opportunity to go completely overboard in fitting the tubes, by notching them to fit around the tabs, and then touch between them. They're supposed to be plug-welded in the top, bottom, and side holes; as well as a full corner bead around each tube.










Opportunity number two is to leave a very small gap between the tubes in the plug weld holes. This would, theoretically, pull the tubes into the splicer/gusset piece as the metal contracts. I haven't put any thought into the resultant stress loading in the tubes yet. In any case, think about how many ways those tubes are positively locked into position - _Todd style_! 











I'm thinking there will be three of these, with the center one also serving as part of the front seat mount. The fourth, at the bottom of the upper rails will be a bit different, to tie the tubes into that horizontal tube from the original Ninja frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I couldn't leave it alone!  I was supposed to be on my way to the shop after I posted that last update, and couldn't stop. I modeled the rear mount, installed it (in CAD), and have started on some other things...

The rear mount was pretty simple. I just removed the pockets from one side,and the side and end plug weld holes, then chamfered the bottom edge and cut a notch for the crossmember - done.











It gives a positive location for the tubes, via a lot of weld area. There will also be a bit of positive locking, as this piece will be notched around the center uprights on the frame a bit.











On the bike. I was waiting to see this before deciding how to finish the body - I think these need to be seen.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was supposed to spend Thursday through Sunday on the lathe and Bridgeport making the final parts to begin assembling Scrape's new frame. Quite frankly, I am too burned out to do it; and my allergies have been in high gear from too much shop time over the past couple weeks - so, instead, I pressed the pause button. I have been working on my clients' design projects, and Scrape's design. I find comfort and peace in the clients' projects, because once it's out of my computer and into their hands, it is no longer my responsibility. I, ultimately, want something similar to that with Scrape, where I find partners to produce the things I design; not me. I told Curt that I might grab the frame and fixture and stick it in the storage unit for a bit, while I catch my breath, and then pay/barter to have some of this last stuff fabricated. At the same time, another representative from the Hall of Fame emailed asking about the possibility of displaying it there. I basically reset the pause button on that too.

With Scrape's design, now that the theme has really started to gel, I have begun revisiting some of the individual aspects to refine them, and get everything better integrated into the whole. I love the AC/DC hybrid drive system, but it was using far too much real estate, and beginning to make Scrape look a little chunky. I am experimenting with stuffing both motors in a single, peanut-shaped, liquid-cooled, case, with a single output to the rear wheel. My initial thoughts are to design around automotive quick-change rear end gears to enable each motor to drive the output shaft. The point is there are race-quality gears already available, and changing ratios would be as simple as removing the cover and swapping them. A fringe benefit of this design is I can move the output shaft as close to the swingarm pivot as possible (hasn't been done on the CAD model yet). I also changed the battery box from carbon fiber to black anodized aluminum. I am going to add more and more detail to it, with the goal being to give it a bit of the mechanical complexity one would expect to find in that space.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sorry to be the eternal buzz kill but I thought the integrated motor/swingarm was one of the best parts of the bike. Sad to see it go


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sorry to be the eternal buzz kill but I thought the integrated motor/swingarm was one of the best parts of the bike. Sad to see it go


I don't see your feedback like that - I appreciate it. If I had an intern to task with going back through this entire thread and developing a spreadsheet on JRP3's comments, I am pretty sure the positive would far outweigh the negative; which would really be almost all constructive criticism anyway. So keep on buzzing killer! 

I agree, but the engineering side of me came along, rapped my creative knuckles with a digital straight edge, and said,


> "Really Todd?! That stuff will easily fit in 30-40% of the space, and inside the confines of the _sprung_ chassis. Now get back to work and K.I.S.S. it Mr Designer!"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to tackle the issue of the body, on top of that narrow upper frame, today. I wanted to show the splicer and gussets, but didn't think I would like the body narrow enough to leave them showing, but I think I do. Until I modeled and (digitally) installed those pieces on the frame, I was going to extend the body down over the frame rails, like an older bikes tank would be. Again, I think I like this, so I might keep it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, it's a good thing you're a short arse cause this bike seems to be getting smaller! Apart from that back wheel!
Looking good though. Hope you don't put a blunt edge or sharp corner on the side tubes, just a nice tight bend. Or even a bend with a short forward triangulation tube to give the frame a diamond shape around the Soliton. 

Don't let me tread on your creative wizardry though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, it's a good thing you're a short arse cause this bike seems to be getting smaller! Apart from that back wheel!...


Lol, that's an optical illusion. The bike hasn't really changed size from the first day it was converted to electric. I just juggle parts... Some pretty big guy have been on it, and apart from the uncomfortable (to them) extreme race riding position (seat level bars, and tucked rear-set pegs) they were fine - it is actually a liter-class chassis.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Hope you don't put a blunt edge or sharp corner on the side tubes, just a nice tight bend. Or even a bend with a short forward triangulation tube to give the frame a diamond shape around the Soliton...


No way I'd do a sharp corner! You're pretty close to what I'm thinking. I haven't modeled that yet because I have some other decisions to make before closing that area out.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Don't let me tread on your creative wizardry though!


Not at all. As always, keep it comin'


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...I told Curt that I might grab the frame and fixture and stick it in the storage unit for a bit, while I catch my breath...


I did that yesterday, and man-o-man does it feel good!  In a little over an hour, I completely removed all the weight and stress from my shoulders. Scrape is my project, my canvas, my therapeutic outlet. Hall of Fame museum wanting it ASAP, (self-asserted) pressure to not occupy too much space on someone's shop floor and equipment, for too long, all add pressure to the project and reduce my ability to get what _I_ need from it.

I am a designer. Design is first and foremost. It's _the_ thing that makes anything worthwhile and rewarding for me. Just get 'er done, and whoring it out to meet the needs of others, leave me looking for another project to find _me_ in, which leads to me questioning why I am building Scrape in the first place, and finally thoughts of selling it.

Going forward, I am going to try to establish this ideological barrier and defend it, at all costs: My Scrape, my way, or no way. Any person, company, idea, or opportunity, that comes along and doesn't rigidly conform to that mandate gets a resounding "NO!"

So, if you throw ideas at me, and I seem rigidly stubborn and uncompromising in my response, it isn't personal...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today, in celebration of what I consider to be the Scrape project getting back on track, I worked on something I have been itching to play with - I mean work on - since the body was first modeled and created in 2012 - the subwoofer. That's what I see the body as, a speaker. It was originally conceived as a simple cover for the frame, to replace the ICE fuel tank. When I started riding the bike, I became enamored with how connected I felt to the environment I was in, which was a stark contrast to my traditional, loud-pipes-save-lives, baffle-less, liter-plus-sized-inline-four-powered, screaming, beasts. The silence and tranquility are almost intoxicating, and I imagined a sound system that added to that, with surround-quality acoustics, not simply playing goofy sounds to alert oblivious texters in my path (that has happened, literally, inside the aisles of CIF).

When I lost my external hard drive to a lake of coffee later that year, I lost the CAD file for the body and couldn't resume playing - I mean testing. I was too busy with other stuff to completely recreate the body, and only had the "body bump" model, that was used to create the foam patch plug for the current version. I still didn't have a complete model. However, with this latest digital incarnation, I finally have a complete model of the body, so the games have begun.  I clipped the rear claws off, and created a watertight version of the body, which allowed me to determine the volume.

Surprisingly, even with this tiny little splash of remaining body, I have 242.9 cubic inches of volume. I am rounding that down to an expected .15 cu-ft, which is enough for a nice, tight, little 6" subwoofer. I downloaded a woofer from the SketchUp Warehouse, and scaled it down to roughly 6", expecting to find there was no way it would fit. My aesthetic bulges get it so close that I can make this work. It just need a little more of a bulge around the front rim of the speaker. I have to have a cut out there, anyway, for the speaker to be inserted into the enclosure, so I am thinking about having a little fun there and grafting a sculptured aluminum mount into the body there, that tapers back into the body; and with my coveted carbon fiber mesh, as a grille, finishing out the contours of the body under the speaker. The aluminum mount would be anodized black, to add sophistication, without being too blatantly obvious, like a rapper's grille (gold teeth).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just a quickie GIF I threw together for my website's landing page. I still need to tweak it a bit, but it serves the purpose, for now. If I can catch my laptop in a good mood, I might be able to pull of a real path, and get a smooth fly-around, someday...

Is this too disturbing to watch?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Is this too disturbing to watch?


I keep staring at it, but maybe I'm already disturbed


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I keep staring at it, but maybe I'm already disturbed


You're still dealing with me, five years later, (can you believe it has been that long!) - that alone says volumes about your sanity! 

Thanks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I downloaded a drawing and specs for a JL Audio 6.5" subwoofer, created a profile curve, and revolved a mock-up of it, then worked the body model to flow completely around it. Then, with pure design in mind, and thinking in terms of home audio, furniture, and art, I started thinking about what that would look like machined from wood; to emphasize the fact that it's a speaker. This version is based on a bright idea Woody told me not to do, that I am seriously thinking about being stubborn and doing anyway.  Machine the interior surfaces into the wood (split in half), lay-up and vacuum bag two layers of carbon fiber into those cavities, then re-fixture them on the ShopBot and machine the exterior surfaces, creating thin wood/carbon fiber composite enclosure halves that would then be bonded together. I would probably cut a metal center band that they would be bonded to, for extra strength and aesthetic value.










The speaker mount would be bonded completely inside this version, not visible externally, but the plan for the carbon mesh grille would remain.











I don't know whether or not I will actually create a wood-bodied, electric, musclebike - I am letting design run wild right now to make sure I, ultimately, build something that's really "me". With that in mind, here it is. First, with the wood body semi-transparent, so you can see the little sub inside.










And a solid version. Again, the point in this little experiment was to look at Scrape as a functional art piece, nice enough to look at home with fine furnishings in a room. If I were to do it, I would continue to develop on that theme, while maintaining 100% functionality of a race bike. I also tried the fairing in smoked, molded polycarbonate.











I stopped the storage unit today to look at the pieces, and think about where I am going with this project. I have decided that I _don't_ want a minivan. I saw a minivan pulling a small enclosed trailer on the way there, and also realized that I really also _don't_ want to pull a trailer. That leaves making Scrape break down and fit in my back seat - period. I lifted and rolled the front and rear wheels in the back seat, while there, to think about how that would really work, take some measurements, and set my brain on the task. Between there and CIF's gallery, where I decided to work for the evening, I came up with some ideas that I will model and share soon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If I understand you correctly you're trying to carve that out of a solid chunk of wood. If so the grain would not run the way you are showing it, following the contours of the shape, unless you found a large crook in that shape to work with. Even then it would probably not have the varying curves in the grain you are showing. Also having what looks like a large log on top of the bike might make it look top heavy. Might do better with laminated and/or steam bent pieces as in guitar construction, but at this point I'm not a fan.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If I understand you correctly you're trying to carve that out of a solid chunk of wood. If so the grain would not run the way you are showing it, following the contours of the shape, unless you found a large crook in that shape to work with. Even then it would probably not have the varying curves in the grain you are showing. Also having what looks like a large log on top of the bike might make it look top heavy. Might do better with laminated and/or steam bent pieces as in guitar construction, but at this point I'm not a fan.


That's Rhino's attempt at realistic texturing. Since the model is a surface (skin) instead of a solid, the texture just wraps and flows over whatever is there. I could play with mapping, possibly, to get a more realistic effect but I just block that out for now, because I really just wanted to see it in wood.

Mostly likely, this would be a glue-up of several layers of wood; butcher block style. It would require a 5" thick block of wood, per side, to machine from a single billet, and in exotic hardwoods that means MEGA bucks. I would probably use my favorite Black & White Ebony, which is pretty expensive no matter how it comes.

Thank you for your feedback sir!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple things are causing the progress delays with digital and tangible Scrapes. One, with tangible Scrape, I am enjoying _not_ actually working on something, of my own, so much that I haven't found the motivation to pickup a wrench in its favor. Two, with digital Scrape, I have been slowly chewing on the idea of a packable motorcycle, that is also capable of insane performance.

The biggest hurdle is the front suspension. It has to part from the bike, cleanly and quickly; and be rock-solid when attached. I considered a cartridge style steering stem and bearing setup that the upper and lower clamps would slot onto, but I would rather that entire system remain a complete assembly. So I came up with a "key and socket" idea that would attach with four quick release pins (shown, in green) for normal duty, and be tightly cinched with nuts and bolts for high speed runs. The machine work on the socket is pretty straight forward, and could be done via manual milling or CAD/CNC. Ditto for the key (blue), which would be a machined piece that gets pressed into a slot in the steering head (also blue), and welded.














Precision machine work would yield a light interference fit, that could be facilitated with a dead blow hammer. The tooth on the key fits in a corresponding slot in the socket, that is open from the back to allow pressure to be exerted to remove the front suspension.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape Build Pic #500:

This is what Scrape would look like with the quick release front suspension system. The upper frame rails come in a bit lower to slot the rails into the socket in the right place; plus I finally re-modeled the upper rails to have the proper radius and degree of bend. As a result, the body is an inch or so taller to maintain the desired profile, and reach down to the frame rails.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Could you use a larger single pin, turned on the eccentric so that a half turn pulls the headstock tight into a taper fit socket on the frame? Turning it back would push out the headstock for separation.

Additional pins could be used for security.

Just thinking out loud...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Could you use a larger single pin, turned on the eccentric so that a half turn pulls the headstock tight into a taper fit socket on the frame? Turning it back would push out the headstock for separation.
> 
> Additional pins could be used for security.
> 
> Just thinking out loud...


That's nice out loud thinking Woody. Definitely worth kicking around in the old noggin.  I might consider a version of that in place of the rear pin to replace my caveman style dead-blow hammered installation/pry bar removal plans.  (Not an actual pry bar, a purpose-designed lever in a slot on the frame, but still not as elegant as the eccentric.)

Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Somewhere along the way it looks as if you chopped the tail off the hump, and now it looks more like a stubby lump, and doesn't seem to flow with the frame as well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Somewhere along the way it looks as if you chopped the tail off the hump, and now it looks more like a stubby lump, and doesn't seem to flow with the frame as well.


I did. I am split between putting it back in carbon or whether I just want to do an aluminum mount that extends back off the body, but either way it will be more like the current tangible body, and successive CAD models (up to the cropping) and flow down onto that radius more. If aluminum, it would be black anodized so that it would blend in, and would incorporate the front seat mount.

I originally cropped it to find the subwoofer enclosure volume, but left it off because the shape is easier to model without the tail (knowing that _Todd_ will go through countless iterations to satisfy my anal proclivities).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I took a long break from Scrape (actually all of my personal projects), even avoiding pictures of it as much as possible, considering that my laptop is littered with them. The point was I needed to reassess what I'm doing here. This was actually my goal when I left CIF, as a studio tenant, but I got sucked back into the shop trying to accommodate the Hall of Fame request. Gotta say "no" more...

Anyway, to be honest, Scrape came dangerously close to getting slapped back together with a clean titled neck, and tagged with a for sale sign, this time. I have been working on clients' projects and, honestly, I find it relaxing to not have the weight of the actual project on my shoulders. I get to dream, and plan, and plot, and scratch it all out in CAD, then go enjoy the spoils (money for services) while they figure out how to make it work. _That_, is heaven for me, so I seriously considered getting rid of everything but my little Saturn and concentrating my physical efforts on making and keeping it ready for daily transport and road trips.

My biggest issue with Scrape is the amount of time needed just to get it back together and in some type of basic form that I think will benefit me, as a marketing tool. That last frame design is pretty interesting, but a LOT of machine and fabrication work to do right; and I have a lot of stuff to buy, which I have found better things to spend that money on. Then, the body had to be recreated. MDF or modeling board _billets_, 12+ hours of ShopBot time, resin, bagging supplies, and a massive amount of time - again, money and time I would rather use differently now. So, yesterday after meeting with one of my clients, I spent a couple hours at the storage unit staring at the piles of parts that are my projects, and thinking about how I could realize Scrape, with the least amount of resources expended.

From some other ideas I had been toying with, before the break, I realized that I can make the rear suspension and drivetrain separate from the front half of the bike much easier than that keyed steering head. A couple checks with the tape measure confirmed that each half would fit, lengthwise in my back seat, with some wrangling to stack them and reduce the overall width. So the steering head stays in place, permanently welded, both wheels stay attached with conventional axles, and the drive chain stays in place, because the motor is bolted to the section of Ninja frame that would pin or bolt to the new frame - hmmmm...

Next was that freakin body. I just can't justify that much effort for one little part, and I don't really see the payoff for me, as a marketing tool. I looked at the old body out in the sunlight, to see what would be needed to modify and continue with it, and realized that I really don't even like it that much. What I need, I thought, is a tank shell. Add subwoofer, mount, and forget it. I started searching eBay for Ninja tank shells, but came across Harley Sportster style steel shells and thought - hmmmm...

So here it is, Scrape The Bobber!  I redesigned the frame to have a single backbone, chopper/cruiser/dragbike style, and fortified the area where it joins the lower rails with a 1.625" u-bend. That gives me a strong section to mount the Ninja frame section to, and turns the entire frame into an exercise in creative triangulation. I'm thinking, water-cut, webbed, gussets in all the major intersections - something that can be added now or later. The tank has a quickie texture to represent the fact that I would probably do some kind of chemically-forced, faux, aged, steel patina.









Now, I stare at this for a while, and see if it makes sense...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can live with it, if that helps at all


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I can live with it, if that helps at all


Good it does, because I also need to come up with a plan that someone else _could_ actually live with, if I ever decide to sell it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I should have mentioned in my previous novel that a part of my intention with de-evolving Scrape a bit is to try to redirect the narrative that comes from it. It's completely my fault, but probably 95% of the people I meet here say, "Oh, you're the guy that builds the electric (vehicles)..." Not design, not CAD, not even fabrication (which I don't want anyway); something totally irrelevant to their daily needs - just entertainment.

The first part of that plan, keeping the vehicles as far out of sight/out of mind as possible, is working as intended. Next I have to see if I can incorporate Scrape in an exhibit and actually market my skills with it, not cast a shadow over them. I did attract my current clients with my projects, but I believe I missed many others because they likely assumed that all I do is build crazy electric vehicles.

On that note, BEVs are really not very popular here. A couple people have told me they've seen a Roadster and a couple Model S's around town, I have seen one S, no Roadsters, in five years. I don't remember ever seeing a Leaf on the street here. OSU's CAR had a couple events that drew a couple/few BEVs, but on a daily basis I don't see them. There are gas-electric hybrids everywhere, and all I ever remember seeing plugged in the public charging stations are Volts.

It's probably due to this city being extremely car-centric. There is a bus system, but people view those who ride it negatively. If you can't/don't want to drive here, take a cab - that's the (snobbish) social norm. (Pedal) bikes are gaining in popularity, there's a new bike sharing program, and a lot of Millennials are following the new global norm of being car-less, but for the most part this is a car-centered city. Add to that the people drive incredibly stupidly, and BEV just doesn't float. They will tailgate you, then swing out around you and pass you in anger, engine screaming, then hard on the brakes to stop for the red light that you were obviously pacing yourself for. When the light changes, they rocket away to the next, still blazing red, light, and then slam on the brakes again. On the highway, they'll tailgate and/or pace you (in your blind spot), then rocket around you and disappear into the future - until you pass them again a few minutes later. 55, then 80, then 55, 65MPH must not be _cool_. 

So, their range would suck miserably, and they would probably blame it on "EVs"...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After months of design and deliberation, I finally have a plan I like enough to start cutting. Scrape's trip to the new CIF welding room. The organ donor (the old Ninja frame) on the fixture Curt and I made at Great Machine, now on CIF's awesome welding table, prepped and ready for surgery.










First, I made a quick little lower mount to lock the rear sub-frame in position, after it's liberated from the Ninja frame. It's just a short piece of square tubing, with a couple nuts welded to it, that allow me to run bolts in the shock linkage mounting holes. One day, I'll probably cap all this stuff, media blast the fixture, and have it powder coated, just because I'm me. 











And, finally, a blurry pic of the liberated organs, the steering head and rear sub-frame (as it will now be called). Next, I finish detailing the steering head, and then start stringing tubes...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Did the rear loop of the frame today. It's just two elbows welded together. I didn't sleeve it because the way that the backbone tube is going to be spliced into this will be totally _Todd_ (substantially over-engineered), and lock everything together pre-weld; plus, the splice was heavily chamfered, so lots of weld left under that surface work. Ignore the sleeves in the bottom ends, those are from a previous endeavor, and will be cut off to fish-eye this around the lower rails.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I sprayed the steering head with machinist's dye, and worked on it on the belt sander. The dye reveals the low spots.










Which were then welded up, and ground back down, working slowly and cautiously, to prevent a lot of heat build up. I plan to put new bearings and races in, before any serious speed feats, but still don't want to ruin these.











I'll finish the stepped areas by hand, mostly with files and some Dremel work; then finish smoothing out the whole thing after it's welded into the new frame.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Why are you sanding it?

Could you not just put it on a lathe?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why would Todd do something the easy way?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Why would Todd do something the easy way?


Point taken!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Why are you sanding it?
> 
> Could you not just put it on a lathe?





JRP3 said:


> Why would Todd do something the easy way?





Woodsmith said:


> Point taken!


  Relatively speaking, the lathe would have been the easy way - BUT...

...I don't care about it being perfectly round, I want it to look nice, with minimal material sacrificed. I can control that better by hand, on the belt sander. It's a slower process, and I can literally feel in my hands how much work the belt is doing - how much steel is being removed. So, if I have a low spot in one area, rather than taking the entire part down, I can skim, watch, feel, observe that area, and make a judgement call on how much steel I am removing, how far out of round it's getting, and whether or not to stop and weld it up.

Final result, if I were to chuck it up in the lathe and put a dial indicator on it, would probably look like a seismograph reading a 7.5 quake, but I will fool the eyes into seeing a perfectly round part, with more steel remaining. 


It's an experience thing, from chucking up parts that just need a "light turn" on the lathe, and whittling them down to half their original spec; and watching others do it. You'll either have to remove too much to even it out, or warp the heck out if it trying to add enough metal to compensate.

Now, I can run my hands over a part and get a feel for how much material the machine would have to remove, versus what I can accomplish by hand. Add to that, 70 & 80's Japanese techniques and technologies, and I wouldn't bet on the center of that steering head being perfectly concentric - it didn't have to be. As long as the two races are concentric, to one another, and the frame is built in the fixture, whatever is between them is irrelevant. Those stepped ends look like they were forged or stamped in, and I don't remember ever seeing marks in the race seats of these old frames that would indicate that they had been turned. My guess is a machine grabs a piece of tubing and smashes perfect race seats in each end - creating the steps in the dies - the middle be darned...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had one last thing to check before starting to string the tubes for the new frame. I'm on version 2.5.2 right now. I think around version 2.4, I shortened the steering head, and forks, an extra inch to emphasize the forward-raked wedge profile. This came after adding the pre-load adjusters to the forks, which made them seem taller. With the reverse rake of the bobber style, I knew that wouldn't be necessary, but wanted to verify before I got the whole frame welded up and then _wished-I-woulda_. As I thought, no discernible aesthetic effect so, game on...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm finally getting back to work on the new frame. I've been super busy with clients' projects lately, and also wanted to take some time to really think things through before actually starting to string the tubing. The main issue was how it locks together, and breaks down, with 200MPH in mind...

I turned the center bores of bushings in the outer pivot cups to allow the foot pegs to fit in them, with a precise slip-fit, and positively locate the swingarm pivot shaft. So, to assemble/disassemble the bike I'll simply unscrew the pegs and pull the shaft; along with locking/unlocking the two, forthcoming, upper mounts. For street usage, I also bored holes for quick release pins, so that I can just snug the pegs and lock them with the pins. For racing/performance use I will torque the swingarm pivots to spec, with the option of shimming to simultaneously align the pin holes.












They'll look like this assembled, and I will probably put blue LEDs inside the cups to get a little blue glow in the gaps.  There will be bushings between the pegs and cups.










I have been purposely leaving machining marks and little imperfections in the parts. I'll clean some of it up in final detailing, but I want an obviously machined, well-used and abused, race aesthetic; not a perfectly finished show bike.

I did this work at CIF, in their new diggs. Everyone that saw it thought I was working on flash suppressors for 50 caliber rifles - something that would be common at Great Machine, where I made these parts...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to force myself to resume work on the frame, and the first few hours were a hard mental battle. The whole time, I was thinking about how much I would rather be doing design work, wishing I had just left well-enough alone, and telling myself if I could just push through I might be able to sell it and unburden myself...

Then, about halfway through, when I finally got around to actually notching tubing, I caught a second wind and started to enjoy the promise of what I was doing, if not so much the process of getting there. Sort of like a marathon runner pushing for that last mile, knowing the mental reward of actually crossing the finish line.

I used machinist's dye to mark the ends of the lower rails, that needed to be trimmed; inside the outer pivot cups. Tip: If you ever use this method, use a grinder to to mark the line before you start grinding. The dye is heat resistant, but the discoloration from grinding will make it hard to recognize.











To keep myself from burning out, I made a conscious decision to relax my personal perfectionist standards enough to just get the darn thing together. I would normally chase this notch until there were NO gaps remaining. I've seen chassis builders, working on vehicles that would see exponentially more stress, abuse, and power, than Scrape will ever be submitted to, with worse fitments than this, so I forced myself to stop here.











By 3am, I was ready to load this into the trunk of my little Saturn. One more rail to go, then the upper rear subframe mounts, and it's ready to weld up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry for all the blurry pics. By the time I finished these last two work sessions, I was pretty wiped out and just took whatever my little pocket Nikon happened to grab, and made the best of it. It doesn't seem to like the lighting in CIF's new weld shop (pics in the open work area were better), and I haven't taken the time to find settings that work better in there.

Anyway, after CIF's ribbon cutting ceremony (officially _Christening_ the new facility), a little champagne, two shots of bourbon at local watering holes, and a bunch of junk food to try to absorb some of the alcohol in my otherwise empty stomach, I decided to go for the third tube.  (No I wasn't a little tipsy - due to genetics, I felt nothing at that point; and, as evidenced below, hand-eye coordination was spot-on. )

The upper frame rail has been carved to fit and tacked in. Next, I figure out my upper rear subframe mounts, weld it up, and start reassembling Scrape. I have been debating with myself over whether I want TIG stacks or blended MIG welds. So far, blended welds, and saying screw any sanctioning body that doesn't like 'em, is winning...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This weekend was the first chance I've had in a while to play with my own stuff in CAD, so I decided to see what this idea I have had in mind for the battery box would look like; visually and in machine time. My thought was to start with 0.250" aluminum sheet and engrave it on CIF's ShopBot. I did my Bat-T logo, of course, and an artsy swipe at a current sensor circuit. The CAM software for the ShopBot claims it will take 40 hours to do this - per side!   

I think it would be actually somewhere between 6-10 hours, per side. That's still more than I want to go in debt for. I have a deal with Alex to trade hour for hour; an hour of machine use time, in exchange for an hour of operator services on that machine for CIF. A possible 20 hours seems like a lot to owe for this...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Before I left CIF last night, I found a reasonable compromise. I can just engrave the logo and circuitry in thin sheet. The deep recesses I was originally after would make it look more like a machined metal structure, whereas the engraved sheet will be more of a formed box, but it's a necessary evil. A perfect row of TIG stacks around the perimeter of each side would add a little extra eye candy. Curt, Gary (engineer/member of CIF), and a guy named Levi (fabricator/member of CIF), have all _conspired_ to convince me to TIG the frame, instead of MIG and blend, so this would flow with that aesthetic. It would, admittedly, be lighter as well.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice!

I'd suggest inverting the circular design so that the 'rivets' are rotated 60deg.
That would allow 'Danger' at the top, and 'High Voltage' at the bottom.
As it stands it reads 'Danger High' and then 'Voltage'.


I got married on Saturday, btw.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice!...


Thanks Woody. 

First things first:


Woodsmith said:


> ...I got married on Saturday, btw.


CONGRATS buddy!!!!  Woohoo!





Woodsmith said:


> ...I'd suggest inverting the circular design so that the 'rivets' are rotated 60deg.
> 
> That would allow 'Danger' at the top, and 'High Voltage' at the bottom.
> As it stands it reads 'Danger High' and then 'Voltage'...


I do get your point, but the arrangement of the rivet points is a part of a version of my logo. The "Danger High Voltage" was really just added in as eye candy; the passive safety measure is really a fringe benefit. I also forgot to put the lightning bolt back in the center of the "T", in the last version. It seemed like too much in the deeply cut version, but might work well with more simple engraving. I plan to leave the folded upper and lower front corners blank in this version, and just emphasize the original chiseled stone aesthetic, with tight, crisp, bends.




On another front, in the spirit of your new union, I _might_ have found something for me, _maybe_. She's actually a client; a fashion designer. I am working with her on a project, to add industrial design and structure to one of her designs. We definitely have chemistry, that extends far beyond business. She's also not originally from Columbus, so she doesn't fit the culture here, that I _love_ so much (sarcasm, if you haven't experienced my anti-Columbus rants). Suffice it to say, I am very interested, so we'll see how this plays out.  (Just met her a week ago, and we've been focused on the project to meet an entry deadline...)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nothing major here, just acceptance of a hard truth. The chance of me going ahead with development of that hybrid DC/AC motor anytime soon is slim to none. When I'm honest with myself about what's needed, and where I am headed next in life, DC is just fine. Major and Tesseract have alluded to that fact many times, and the fastest of the fast drag racers have proven it...

So my finned, and sleeved, GE will likely happen. The final straws are the fact that this would be an awesome marketing chip, relatively simple to do, and the bike is so simple and clean like this.









As awesome as it looks in there, I am once again also facing the reality that my much-coveted Soliton isn't going to make the cut. More likely will be a Zilla 2K-HV, to have enough current to balance the power equation, with DC's lower voltage ceiling. A proper _Todd_ case for it would be mandatory though.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, are you planning to run lower volts then? What are the sums telling you the Soliton won't work please? I would think direct drive with your high revving little motor you would want more voltage for the higher speed and the Soliton will trade those volts for more amps at low rpm. Remember the traction limit of your rear wheel also, and the light weight will not help the traction!

Not trying to confuse your decision or anything but that Soliton just looks scary in there, like it should be on show, not everything hidden in a box, whether transparent or not. My opinion only so take it with a pinch of salt as they say.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Edit: Crap, I meant to hit quote to do a new post, revising the numbers I had for SW37, but hit edit and screwed up this post - I don't remember the exact wording, but I will try to keep the meaning the same...




tylerwatts said:


> Todd, are you planning to run lower volts then? What are the sums telling you the Soliton won't work please? I would think direct drive with your high revving little motor you would want more voltage for the higher speed and the Soliton will trade those volts for more amps at low rpm...


Yes. Series DC has a max voltage of around 225v. To re-balance the equation, and maintain desired power output, you crank up the current.

Soliton has a limit of 1000 amps. That could be enough, but I don't want to find out it isn't $3000 later. If they still had the unlocked 1400 amp racing version available, I might be tempted to roll the dice on it...


Notice the RPM limits Lawless' GE motors?! {{{Evil Grin}}}







tylerwatts said:


> ...Not trying to confuse your decision or anything but that Soliton just looks scary in there, like it should be on show, not everything hidden in a box, whether transparent or not. My opinion only so take it with a pinch of salt as they say.


I agree but you do realize that a Zilla in a proper Todd case would be similarly scary, right?!  We're talking milled aluminum... 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Remember the traction limit of your rear wheel also, and the light weight will not help the traction!...


These things aren't as traction limited as one might think. Keeping the front wheel near Earth is as challenging as keeping the rear wheel from spinning to oblivion. The recipe for Scrape, especially during high speed attempts, is to run really low (numerical) gearing. That places a bigger load on the motor, for a longer period of time, allowing it to draw more current. Setup and balanced (with the throttle) properly, I should be able to keep both ends doing what I want them to do - that was my specialty...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This sudden shift to the battery box and motor, is me thinking through everything I can think to think through, before welding the frame. It's, obviously, easier to make any necessary modifications or accommodations now, than after it's permanently burned together.

With the decision to use the one, finned, DC motor (at least for the time-being), I started thinking through how I was actually going to produce that case. The financial cost for me to machine it from billet bar stock is not out of hand, but I can't see myself investing that much time in it anytime soon. My next thought was casting, so I decided to experiment with building the plug with individual pieces. The bright idea was to machine one fin, produce a silicone rubber mold of it, cast 30 of them in resin, and glue the plug together using two end forms. The resulting, 30-flat-sided, interior cavity would also make indicating for milling the center bore easier. The problem is cost _and_ time. The casting supplies alone would be over a hundred bucks, plus machine time for the first fin, resin casting time, assembly time, cost of having the aluminum housing cast, and then more machine time to finish it... It ends up being the same, or greater, investment of time, and probably more money. 












So, very late last night, I decided to experiment with the idea of a totally fabricated housing. The most feasible version is let the ShopBot snip out 30 flat fins, while it's cutting the battery box pieces. I could actually machine the original profile in the fins, but that starts down that slippery slope of time-spent again. I can purchase a piece of 7.5"(o.d.) x 7" (i.d.) aluminum tubing for around $50, and relatively quickly machine slots to receive flat fins. Each fin would be TIG'd in a few spots, then the next one added, then finally all of them aluminum brazed to create the radius from motor case cover into fin. The machined slots are to quickly and positively position and angle each fin, before being TIG'd in place. If I split the tube, and add clamping bolt bosses, I can also eliminate the need to have to do everything in one shot, and machine the center bore so precisely, and press the motor frame into it. It actually doesn't even have to be disassembled to add this housing. I will manually machine the openings for the terminals, and forced-air cooling.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds like a good solution Todd. I hear you on the controller also, I look forward to seeing what happens with it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds like a good solution Todd. I hear you on the controller also, I look forward to seeing what happens with it!


Thanks Tyler. 



Chasing this fabricated motor housing a bit further, I deleted seven fins, split the case, and added three bolt bosses. I'm happy with it because it looks like I meant to do it, not had to do it. The bosses, not my typical organic sculptured stuff, were designed to be easily realized with current resources; especially since they'll be mostly hidden between the motor and frame. I know, I know, that has never stopped me before!  Everything I am doing now is a foundation for wretched CAD/CNC excess later, when I get my little mill up and running.










One of my major goals for this project is really starting to take on a life of its own - developing an electric bike with the mechanical complexity and sophistication of traditional (non-plastic-clad) ICE bikes. A lot of times electric vehicles look unimposing, and it's hard to even see where the power would come from. I want people to see a powerful mechanical beast. For the power pieces, I want the same visual impact as looking at a turbocharged race engine; even if you have no idea what the parts are, they somehow communicate power and fury...


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> [snip]Yes. Series DC has a max voltage of around 225v. To re-balance the equation, and maintain desired power output, you crank up the current.
> 
> Soliton has a limit of 1000 amps. That could be enough, but I don't want to find out it isn't $3000 later. If they still had the unlocked 1400 amp racing version available, I might be tempted to roll the dice on it...
> [/snip]


Not quite. Some Interpoled DC motors can go beyond 225v easily.
The motors that come to mind are almost all of the Kostov motors and the Netgain Warp 11HV.

Info I've gathered on the Netgain Warp 11HV
This sales sheet says 5800rpm max. I've seen most other places that say 5500rpm. I'd imagine with the Warp9 rotor(which is a motor that is slightly larger than 9" as it is) inside that 5800rpm shouldn't be a problem. The max voltage recommended for this motor that I've seen from multiple sources(EVsource as an example) is 288 volts.








Looks like EVwest says it can handle 8,000RPM for a short period and lists 5,000 as continuous, I imagine they are suggesting in a racing application versus street use.
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=53

Kostov motors, the 9HV for example.
The max spec RPM is 7000RPM, the 1 hour rating is actually at 6800RPM for with 220v applied. Plamenator(with Kostov) has said on this forum that 270v can go into this motor but the limit being mostly RPM based. There was a thread where an unofficial 8000RPM for 'at your own risk' racing purposes was discussed. The 9HV was designed for the 600 amps max of the Soliton Jr. So you'd need to go with one of their bigger motors if you are looking for more power but you'll be running slower speeds with the larger rotors(6000RPM for the 11").

I do find their K11 and K11alpha motors look impressive and are rated 250v nominal. I'd imagine you could push the 1000 amps from a Soliton with high voltage through those motors.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> Not quite. Some Interpoled DC motors can go beyond 225v easily.
> The motors that come to mind are almost all of the Kostov motors and the Netgain Warp 11HV...


Thanks MN, but I guess I should have been more specific. When I refer to "Series DC" I am referring to the conventionally wound motors, with four large, flat wire, field coils, and no interpoles. The reason is these are the absolute torque monsters, and (to date) the choice of most standing start, straight-line, racers.

Because of Scrape's (and my) light weight, I don't need a large diameter motor to accelerate, and prefer the high RPM capability of the smaller motor. A 9HV at 270V probably wouldn't spin as high as my 7" GE at 200-225V, and definitely wouldn't handle the current my little beastie will. The Warp 11HV weighs almost as much as my whole bike!


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks MN, but I guess I should have been more specific. When I refer to "Series DC" I am referring to the conventionally wound motors, with four large, flat wire, field coils, and no interpoles. The reason is these are the absolute torque monsters, and (to date) the choice of most standing start, straight-line, racers.
> 
> Because of Scrape's (and my) light weight, I don't need a large diameter motor to accelerate, and prefer the high RPM capability of the smaller motor. A 9HV at 270V probably wouldn't spin as high as my 7" GE at 200-225V, and definitely wouldn't handle the current my little beastie will. The Warp 11HV weighs almost as much as my whole bike!


In that case the best you'd get if you want a light interpoled motor would be the Kostov 9HV, if you pump 600 amps in at 270v you'd be pushing 162kw into the motor. The performance graph shows about 162ft lbs torque at 600 amps. I just picked up my motor while standing on a scale and it's a 102.6 pound motor. If you have it geared right, this motor is very powerful if you can get those RPMs up and supply the voltage, otherwise you get less out of that 162ft lbs of torque.

If you need more amperage and a light motor and the GE can handle that, it sounds like you've got the right motor for the job. How heavy is the 7" GE?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> ...If you need more amperage and a light motor and the GE can handle that, it sounds like you've got the right motor for the job. How heavy is the 7" GE?


At the bottom of the page there's a chart with for Warp motors. The Warp 7 should be comparable to a GE 7" (100-120lbs, typical).

My current (GE) motor is about 10" long (not counting the shaft), and about half the weight, or ~50lbs.

I will have less torque than the longer motors, but I don't need as much, with a 250-300lb bike, and 125lb rider. The 8-10K RPM is what I am eyeballing, combined with some internal "prepping" (all stuff I have seen successfully implemented on these motors, but scaled down to my little motor)...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

A limiting factor for bikes is the batteries.
Have you considered a "Fat Bob" gas tank to hold more batteries?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> A limiting factor for bikes is the batteries.
> Have you considered a "Fat Bob" gas tank to hold more batteries?


That's for distance and/or when trying to use large format LiFePO4 cells.

Scrape is really a street-legal (straight-line) race bike and, with LiPo, I can fit more than enough cells in that box to complete its mission. As fringe benefits of having 600+hp in the pack, and sub-300lb vehicle weight, I expect to get 40-60 miles of range. If you look closely at my seat, even supplemented with a planned gel pad for street riding, that's plenty.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I added the lightning bolt, and rings around the points where the trace dives into the board and back out elsewhere (actually from the main circuitry on the bottom, to a terminal point on top). That's just a fun geeky detail for people who actually want to try to follow the circuit and figure out what it is. Remember, this will ideally be rendered in black anodized aluminum, so it's a subtle detail that keeps the side of the box from being a flat, boring, sheet of aluminum, but has extra dimension for those who like to dig deeper. It'll start with the chiseled, jewelry stone like, overall shape; then the engraving; then the artsy representation of a somewhat relative electric circuit. In my view, the engraving should work like the colors that sparkle in the flat planes of a large diamond, instead of a big, monochromatic, sheet of reflected ambient light.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt is itching to weld the frame, so I needed to tackle the final major design item - my "Motor Drive System". The need to add a matching aesthetic to the Zilla turned out to be the catalyst for what I believe will the the crown jewel (aesthetically) in the power section. I started out by doing some drawing in SketchPad, to get a basic direction. Now, I am in Rhino, ready to create the foundation for a little sculptured aluminum.

To prevent having a visually heavy mass of metal, I split the Motor Drive System into three components: a sculptured aluminum main frame that will continue the aesthetic of the battery box up into the drive; a milled and polished, or vacuum-formed, smoked polycarbonate upper cover; and a sculputured replacement for the (green) Zilla enclosure cover. The frame will serve as a mount for all the various components that drive and monitor the motor and batteries. The polycarbonate cover will allow a peek at some electronic componentry and, hopefully, twinkling LEDs. Pending a thumbs-up from Manzanita tech, the Zilla will be mounted upside-down, hanging from the main frame, and be finished with a finned aluminum shell that matches the motor. The highlighted (yellow) curves show the basic shape of the main frame (they _won't_ extend down to the battery box); the beginning...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks good Todd, I'm impressed you can make a Zilla look sexy/artistic! Maybe they can learn a little.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks good Todd, I'm impressed you can make a Zilla look sexy/artistic! Maybe they can learn a little.


Thanks Tyler. Wait 'til you see the actual cover for the Zilla! I was going to share the sketch, but I forgot to hit save when I moved to Rhino, and my junk Android tablet crashed and lost the sketch.  It served its purpose though.

The Zilla will indeed be sexy and artistic, hanging under there, though it's just one aspect. You'll also only see the rear half of it, as the front half will be inside the frame and battery box, but that's the half with the _groovy_ fins. 

I have something really sweet in mind for the power connection to the motor, that would let it automatically connect when the rear half of the bike is attached, but I haven't made it that far yet, obviously. Of course, it would be totally me; _i.e._, sculptured and excessive.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...The Zilla will indeed be sexy and artistic...


I just had a conversation with Gary, who does incredible silicone molds for casting. He assured me that we can pull a mold from virtually any shape, and made the mistake of encouraging me to be completely free in design - {{{evil laugh}}} 

So, I have an idea for either cast pewter directly out of the silicone mold, or a core for a lost-wax investment cast aluminum cover...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm making decent progress on the main frame. I have it rendered in carbon here because, as it develops, it's becoming a bit much for machining from billet. It's possible, but extremely wasteful. Carbon also helps break things up a bit. Not definite yet though. That's the Zilla's Hairball on top.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, looking great. I like the carbon idea for rigidity and light weight. Plus it lends to a more fluid design. You say progress on the frame but I assume you mean the drive system structure not the chassis frame of the bike. The casting idea sounds interesting also but you'll get lower quality and strength material remember, which might be fine for a modular structure where the casting is the upper cover/mount not a major structure in the assembly. I'm thinking also about how much this can contribute to the frame stiffness also, which could be both good and bad. It could improve or ruin ride quality and feedback and/or it could over stress the structure and damage it or the components inside. Worth serious consideration. Sorry to seem like criticism or throwing a spanner in your works!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Sorry to seem like criticism or throwing a spanner in your works!


I keep telling you buddy, I never take it like that - just another set of eyes looking and telling me what they see. Even if I present evidence to the contrary, for everything you see/suggest, I am always listening. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...You say progress on the frame but I assume you mean the drive system structure not the chassis frame of the bike...


Yeah, I can see where that's a little confusing, I'll relabel that part... Your assumption was right - I meant the structural component for the drive system.






tylerwatts said:


> ...The casting idea sounds interesting also but you'll get lower quality and strength material remember, which might be fine for a modular structure where the casting is the upper cover/mount not a major structure in the assembly. I'm thinking also about how much this can contribute to the frame stiffness also, which could be both good and bad. It could improve or ruin ride quality and feedback and/or it could over stress the structure and damage it or the components inside...


Remember the part I am considering casting is just a cover replacing the _lovely_ green sheet metal cover on the production Zilla. It isn't structural, just there to seal out the environment; and in my case to give the controller a complementary aesthetic. The finned metal cover, _might_ contribute a little in the way of heat dissipation, especially with the big crazy fins I have planned. 

The strength will be lower, as noted, and not necessary, but the quality will be quite high. The silicone molds pick up every detail - even things you don't want, like sanding marks and scratches. The cast surface is as perfect as the plug you mold, so right out of the molds the final part will look better than even a milled part. I could even make it look like a milled part, if desired, by leaving the toolpath lines on the plug...






tylerwatts said:


> Todd, looking great. I like the carbon idea for rigidity and light weight...


Thanks. Now it's just a matter of whether I can convince myself to go through the whole mold and lay-up process to produce a carbon part.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A hurdle I have immediately in front of me is getting good data to design that cover. I have general specs, gleaned from the internet, on the Zilla 2K's overall size, but I need more specific measurements. Ideally, I wish I could get my paws on one, locally, to take my own measurements.

I can take an educated guess, and reverse engineer off available drawings, but I would like to develop a replacement cover that fits, absolutely, perfectly over the controller; no gaps, no tight squeezes. I need precise measurements for that; of the overall width and length of the sheet metal, the section width of the material, the radius of the upper corners, etc. On the bright side, the fact that Otmar's original cover design is so simple gives me almost total freedom in design. It doesn't have to fit _into_ anything, and whatever detail I desire for the outer edges will be prominently on display.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

They likely will sell you a replacement cover. They also may supply the information you seek. Give them a call.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> They likely will sell you a replacement cover. They also may supply the information you seek. Give them a call.


Brilliant idea Major!  I just called to check on purchasing the replacement cover - he said they'll have to call me back... If that call doesn't take as long as it's taking to get a reply on my tech question, and the price is reasonable, I will probably purchase one.

I have trust issues with asking someone I don't know to provide the measurements I want, because people seem to be quite fond of the phrase "good enough"...

Thanks!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, I'm sure one of our fine forum friends would help you! There must be somebody local enough for you to visit and take every finite measurement you need yourself! And have a good chin wag and day out also! Post the question in a new thread to get some attention.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, I'm sure one of our fine forum friends would help you! There must be somebody local enough for you to visit and take every finite measurement you need yourself! And have a good chin wag and day out also! Post the question in a new thread to get some attention.


Major's suggestion was spot-on. The cover is available, and only $25 (including shipping). I am going to order one soon. I just wanted to take a few more steps in CAD first, to be certain this is the way I want to go...

I'm also considering using the replacement cover later to develop a slightly less _Todd_, more universal, version for the masses.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Too many hours in isolation, behind this computer...

I snatched a screenshot while watching CIF's latest video, and what was supposed to be a simple crop for my FB Cover Photo turned into this: 









I'm showing Ric from the Motorcycle Hall of Fame (left), a fellow biker (third from left), and a guy from the national motorcycle museum (right), Scrape's budding new frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My intention was to turn the upper mounts for the rear subframe today, but I neglected to go to the store for a piece of bar stock before walking in CIF, and then never left for the store... I made a little progress though.

I media blasted (glass bead) the rear subframe - a to-do item that has been a long time coming. That grimy, greasy, old painted part was an eyesore on the new frame.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow, looks new Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow, looks new Todd!


Thanks.  It took some time. I have close to two hours of actual blasting time because, being me, I wasn't satisfied until it was almost completely clean, and the surface was consistent. The last half-hour was find a spot that had paint in a crease, or something, blast it, pull the part back out in the lights to inspect it, find a spot, blast it, repeat countless times...

It actually took all day to do, because the (temporary) compressor they have in the station has a 50% duty cycle, and not enough volume, so I would blast for a matter of minutes, then walk away for a while to let the thing refill and cool down. It was around 90-degrees here yesterday, with typical Ohio humidity. The blasting cabinet also doesn't have a dedicated water trap yet, so we drained the compressor's tank three times, and the glass bead still got damp near the end.

Long day. 



Hopefully today I will get the upper mounts underway, so Curt can weld this frame, and Scrape can begin _re-materializing_. The project is gaining momentum.


I have a marketing guy who wants to clean up my message, and revamp my website, then pursue some financial opportunities.
The guy working the kinks out of the big CNC mill needs some CAD files to start running real tests on the mill, and we're going to need gussets for the frame soon.
Motorcycle Hall of Fame is still patiently waiting to feature it; and Ric has hinted a couple times about it going to the National Museum for a bit (that whole exhibit goes there next).
At least a shakedown run at the last Ohio Mile in September is still on my mind.
Alex and I talked, and I am set to do a demo ride, again, at this year's Mini Maker Faire.
Good times.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to force myself to do this today - no motivation. I stopped by Great Machine, and raided their scrap drawer for a piece of 1.25" O.D. tubing, with beefy 0.25" walls. That was the easy part. The ride to CIF in my little air conditioned putt-putt left me in a lazy mood, ready to spend the afternoon and evening behind this laptop, but I really want to get this frame welded up.

So, I snugged the tubing in the vice and milled one end square to allow it to seat properly in the live center.











Then I chucked it up and started turning.












I made these - tubing ends for the rear subframe. One of the reasons I spent so much time blasting the subframe is I have been leaning towards not doing the break-down-able version, and just welding the frame up conventionally. I started to realize that I was making a permanent decision based on what is likely a temporary circumstance - fitting the bike in my Saturn. If I suddenly get the urge to own a minivan or truck again, I'd have a bike that can be split into pieces - for no reason - and all that design and engineering to make it work well, and be safe, would then have been unnecessary. So the subframe gets welded in, with these.








In true Todd fashion, I have an evil plan to sneak hidden details in here. I plan to engrave Bat-Ts into little end caps, cut from this Damascus steel (forged by CIF's resident blacksmith), and have Curt TIG them in with tiny, precise, stacks. No filler is needed, just fused metal.  I'll incorporate matching Damascus steel accents here and there on the bike.




Back to the matter at hand: I squared up the ends of the subframe's upper crossmember, bored plug weld holes, and pressed the ends in.












Tomorrow, if I am so inclined, I will slowly and carefully notch the rear hoop for the ends to fit into it, and tack them in. I need to do two small diameter tube braces down to the lower end, and it'll be ready for Curt to have at it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I did push myself to keep the momentum going Friday. I _got my feet wet_ by starting on the design for the gussets, with some scrap cardboard. The goal was to have these ready for the guy working on the CNC to do some test cuts but, being me, I quickly realized that simple profile cuts weren't going to work. I tried traditional CAD/CNC/machinist type, triangulated, web style lighting but it just didn't look right on the bike; so I picked up on the aesthetic of the drilled foot pegs.











Still, the idea of simple profile cut, drilled, plates doesn't do it for me. I am thinking about cutting a recess or pocket in each plate leaving a thinner, drilled, center section, with a thicker outer rim, where it gets welded, and where it strings tube to tube.











That would require flipping the material, but would yield a three-dimensional part, and add layers of sophistication to the frame, with relatively simple 2D operations.











Then I, reluctantly, pushed myself and the frame into the welding room and tied the rear subframe in. After spending some time experimenting, measuring, and visualizing, I realized that those notches were more complicated to pull off (to my unrelenting standards) than I had energy in the tank, so I used a slightly over-sized notch and an old trick. I cut saddle plates, and hammered them around the tube.











Next, I need to do the lower tubes; then I'll do a little more hammering and fitting on the saddle plates, and give Curt the challenge of keeping this all neat and tidy, as he stitches it together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just about ready to cut the gussets. I need to get a piece of steel plate first, and possibly adapt the nesting arrangement to the size plate I find. CIF's CNC cut its first file from g-code last week, and is ready to rock, so hopefully soon for these puppies. To start, I snapped a pic of the cardboard patterns.











Then desaturated them in Photoshop, and adjusted the colors to allow me to see my curves best in Rhino. Rather than waste time cleaning them up in Photoshop, I did it all in Rhino, because I have much better control and precision there. This pic is first placed behind the grid, as a "Background Bitmap", and I create the actual curves right over it; then hide or delete the bitmap.











From there, scale to size, add the inner curves for the pocket cuts (recesses), the curves for the lightening holes, mirror each, and nest them.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good Todd! Clever way to get them modelled accurately.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good Todd! Clever way to get them modelled accurately.


Thanks Tyler. I've been using this technique for many years, with outstanding results when necessary. I used to use a flatbed scanner, but started using a digital camera for items that were to big to capture in one scan. I switched to the digital camera for everything because of the superior image quality. You just have to be certain you're square with the subject, and I usually put a one inch scale mark, or two, on it.

I made, probably, half of Schism's patterns this way. I needed a fast way to design enough to-do items to keep my hungry interns happy. I would scratch out a part on poster board, capture it with a photo, scale and perfect it in Rhino, then cut new poster board patterns on the laser. Almost every single time, the laser-cut patterns fit absolutely perfectly on the vehicle. The interns would then trace that onto steel, plasma-cut, and grind to match the pattern.

The reasons I went from roughed-out pattern back into CAD are tri-fold. One, I could check the parts against the developing digital model of the vehicle; ensuring compatibility with everything else. Two, I had a digital record of it. Three, I could add precision features, like mounting holes, very precisely. If a part had a hole that had to be spot-on, we would drill the hole in the steel plate first, and use a bolt to locate the pattern on the steel via that hole. If it had multiple holes, I would create a pattern with crosshairs at the location of each hole, center punch through the pattern, and carefully drill them, then move on to the final pattern. I was teaching the interns how to do machine-quality precision work, by hand.

Feeling parts you made, by hand, fit together with that kind of precision is very rewarding.




Curt says he might be ready to weld this weekend. It would be nice to have the gussets ready by then, but I doubt it. I still have to get the steel, adjust the nesting, run it through CAM, and then sit down with Ken to work out a physical process that suits both of our needs; mine to get my parts, of course, and his to get the CNC ready for CIF member usage.

I still have to do the two lower supports for the rear subframe too. I think I'll get going on that in CAD now...


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Hah! I've used the same method for making enlargements of various things! Made a giant version of one of those kids dinosaur skeleton kits from laminated cardboard sheets.

Definitely want to check your camera's output for barrel distortion/pincushion though.

Just never thought I'd see anyone doing the quick-and-dirty on real metal parts .


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Hah! I've used the same method for making enlargements of various things! Made a giant version of one of those kids dinosaur skeleton kits from laminated cardboard sheets.
> 
> Definitely want to check your camera's output for barrel distortion/pincushion though.
> 
> Just never thought I'd see anyone doing the quick-and-dirty on real metal parts .


Yup! 

Gary, a retired engineer/executive at CIF, saw the cardboard patterns and told a kid he was mentoring that they were templates that would be traced out onto metal, and plasma-cut - SCREECH!!!! - I had fun interrupting, and explaining that they would end up in CAD, be sufficiently _Todd-ized_ (complicated), and then CNC-cut! 

I usually work in poster board, and usually have all my drafting stuff, but wanted to get this over with, so I used a piece of thin corrugated cardboard, pencil, eraser, and an X-acto knife; what was readily available...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

According to the info in the pic file, back in November of 2012, one of the ideas I considered for Scrape was mounting a conventional length motor longitudinally, with a ring and pinion to turn the power 90-degrees into a chain drive to the rear wheel. One of the issues we discussed here, besides the fact that the particular layout I posted wasn't very attractive, was that there could be an undesirable torque reaction from the motor.











Apparently not. Harley's new LiveWire project uses this format, and all the reviews I have read, so far, don't even mention it. It's also using a conventional, mono-shock, swingarm rear suspension; not even anything trick like BMW's MonoLever. Most of BMW's work was likely to cancel the torque reaction of the driveshaft, not the longitudinal crank.


Now, if I ever decided to pursue my original idea (that I am sure someone else has done before) I would be seen as following Harley's _lead_... Maybe I should try to sue first, pointing back to this thread, claiming that Harley spied on us and ran with the goods!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looking forward again: I am trying to think through and allow for as many possible and likely future iterations this project may see. I got off track on my reorganization plans since shutting down my studio at CIF in December and January, and trying to get Scrape ready for its little Hall of Fame visit was the main culprit. The plan, in January, was to put Scrape in my storage unit and forget about it for a while. Instead the Hall of Fame opportunity took me on a months-long detour and back into daily shop life.  I'm trying to make sure that what I am doing now is open enough to keep me out of the shop, after it's back together again.

I don't really regret it, because Scrape is an integral part of my long-range plans, and I have made significant progress in redefining it, along with myself. Today's little design exercise was about making sure I don't pigeon hole myself into any particular avenue of development. Specifically, I wanted to make sure that I am not locked into developing DC technology. Scrape, to me, is a tool to develop human ability, thought processes, and forward-thinking societies. Physically, it has to be an open, modular, platform to support that goal. This isn't an actual physical change, but more to make sure that I haven't closed the doors to any possible future changes. I rotated the latest motor concept, and pushed it forward, created a circle (yellow), and pushed the cells (yellow) forward in the box, just to make sure that I can fit an 11" motor in there. Yup.

The point is, if I have accomplished my goal, making a change like going from my little GE motor to a Remy-based motor would be a simple matter of designing the necessary components in CAD, ordering them from the appropriate suppliers, and bolting them on - not ripping the bike apart, and reworking it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been all over Harley Davidson's new LiveWire electric concept/demo bike, reading every media story, pouring over the pics, and watching every video I can get my hands on. At the same time, I have been obsessing over the details of my little scooter, and comparing what I am doing to what the mighty H-D has come up with. One thing that stuck out to me is their attempt to make the bike more aesthetically intriguing (something I have been after, from day one) by having the aluminum cased motor exposed. When I look at the bike though, I still see the typical electric bike blob of materials where naked bikes usually flood that entire space with power, technology, and sophistication, via the exposed the engine and transmission. Harley, Brammo, and Zero (somewhat), have all tried to add little trinkets of tech and complexity in places, but the blob still dominates. Then, I realized that I am making the same mistake, with my big slab of engraved aluminum sheet wrapped around the batteries. So, the CAD workshop is open. My goal is to keep the current form, but have it represented with a sophisticated, but functionally honest, assembly - instead of a folded sheet of aluminum. Stay tuned...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds good Todd, and that is an excellent observation. I think the manufacturers want to keep the bikes looking as ' normal' as they can and they disguise the components enough to make them blend in, but not enough to be mistaken. It would be great to see the beating heart of an EV bike and see what makes it tick. Blaze ahead sir!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds good Todd, and that is an excellent observation. I think the manufacturers want to keep the bikes looking as ' normal' as they can and they disguise the components enough to make them blend in, but not enough to be mistaken. It would be great to see the beating heart of an EV bike and see what makes it tick. Blaze ahead sir!


Thanks Tyler. I'm glad Harley released that bike with as much similarity as it has to my plans - showed me it wasn't going to meet my expectations. Now, I just hope I can get what's in my head to play out in reality, without a spending a fortune and half of eternity to accomplish it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In what should be a nice bit of irony Scrape, with its steel tube frame, Sportster tank shell (subwoofer), and bobber/streetfighter profile, should look more like a Harley than their LiveWire does. Played right, that could garner some good media coverage. 

I need to wire the stereo system to increase with velocity, so we can see which sounds better - tuned motor drive frequency alone, or a bit of motor whine with the accompaniment of good jazz, or rock, or classical...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sound wise I think Harley got it right by using the real sound. I've never been a fan of faking it. BMW faked a larger ICE noise to cover up the 3 cylinder in their i8 hybrid, which just seems incredibly lame. I suppose most people would never know, but to those who do...

I was surprised at how tame the styling was, if it didn't say Harley on it you'd never know it's heritage. One of the many ideas kicking around in my head for a while was to take a Harley and mount the AC31 from my Fiero, and using the Harley belt drive transmission. All I need is time and money


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sound wise I think Harley got it right by using the real sound. I've never been a fan of faking it. BMW faked a larger ICE noise to cover up the 3 cylinder in their i8 hybrid, which just seems incredibly lame. I suppose most people would never know, but to those who do...


I agree. People at CIF always asked me if I planned to play stuff like steam engines and galloping horses when I said "sound system" - nope, I mean real music, like you listen to in your car.

So, even in this context, I really mean music for the enjoyment of listening to good music, not to replace the motor sound. I've been trying to make Scrape as silent as possible. If I get the stereo system right it should be hard to tell where it's coming from, and if I do the velocity/speed based volume, that's really to keep wind noise from killing the music. The silly side of me thinks it would be funny to have a jazz quartet swell with acceleration, because it wouldn't relate to what the eyes are seeing. 

I was definitely just being silly about competing with Harley's sound. I used to try to think of ways to give my EV projects engine like throttle-based sound. I remember asking about changing the controller/inverter frequency to get it to growl. Then, I started riding Scrape and realized I really l-o-v-e the silence. I've also noticed that it's one of the things people are most fascinated about with it. I can't count how many times I've heard someone tell another person, when describing Scrape, "you can't hear _anything_!" I've almost run two people over, as well, because I couldn't believe they couldn't hear me coming; one sneaking up behind a guy, and one coming straight at him, head-on!  






JRP3 said:


> ...I was surprised at how tame the styling was, if it didn't say Harley on it you'd never know it's heritage. One of the many ideas kicking around in my head for a while was to take a Harley and mount the AC31 from my Fiero, and using the Harley belt drive transmission. All I need is time and money


If I'm honest, I don't really like it. I just don't say it because it will seem like I'm just being a jealous, "hater". I told Gary that it looks like it will appear "dated" in a few years, and he kind of came to their defense saying something to the effect that all Harley's look dated, that that's their _thing_. I disagree. Harley's have timeless styling. It's a form that has existed for nearly a century, without ever becoming (universally) "old". Ditto for what's called a "naked bike" now. It's just a motorcycle. Done right, you can tell the era in which it was built, but it never really looks "old", as in no longer relevant...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here is where I think I am headed. The big change is a CAD/CNC bracket that carries an aluminum battery box, instead of the batteries being hidden in a big sheet metal _cabinet_. It breaks up the typical EV bike central mass blob into an assembly of interesting, mechanical, components; all hanging from that main bracket, that maintains the sporkbike fairing-style aesthetic. The bracket itself will have a lot more detail. This is just to hash out the basic shape. From here, I will "unroll" it back to 2D, and develop a series of 2.5D CNC machine operations, combined with some manual forming and turning, and TIG welding, that will yield a very sophisticated, and aesthetically interesting, part. The aluminum box will offer decent weight, good fire suppression, and add to the mechanical aesthetic. It will also clearly identify that this is where the real power is _hanging out_. In front, where I currently have a cropped section of the old box, rendered in carbon, the heat exchanger for the motor controller will be mounted in a sophisticated aluminum/carbon chin spoiler. Remember that carbon mesh idea I was so obsessed with on Schism...  Not shown, in back I will have more of the same to mount the forced-air cooling system for the motor. I have a pretty interesting setup in the (mental) works for that, but haven't been able to get around to modeling it. A redesigned top bracket/cover, finned motor controller case, and deliberately visible snaking of the power cables and cooling lines will finish it off and add a hint of sci-fi, _e.g._, Borg, Transformers. More to come...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds epic Todd


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds epic Todd




I accidentally hit the release, and left my trunk lid partially open, Tuesday night when I got home. Yesterday morning, on the way to meet a client, I found my big beastie right-angle grinder, and tool bag (with calipers, squares, grinding/cutting stuff, etc) missing. Strangely, my Dremel, and another little case full of accessories for it, was still there (it was sitting right beside the stuff that was stolen). Then, when I went to put my laptop in the car, I noticed the right side, rear door, quarter window was broken; smashed in, like it was hit with something. Even stranger, the car was completely locked, and nothing inside was even disturbed.  It almost seems like two separate incidents, a bizarre coincidence. Like someone saw the trunk ajar, and quickly grabbed the first thing they saw; and someone else accidentally, or mischievously, broke the window and ran. 

Oh well... The good news is Scrape's frame and fixture were also stuffed in there, and were also untouched.

After my meeting, I went to Great Machine, fixed my window - and left the fixture-mounted frame there for Curt to stitch it together.  He has some welding to do on his car, and is thinking it will all happen this week.

As long as it isn't today, because today is Red White & Boom, Columbus' pretty decent Independence Day celebration, and what they tout as "the largest fireworks show in the Midwest". Bands playing on two stages, food vendors, countless thousands of shoulder-to-shoulder people, capped by a huge fireworks show, almost directly overhead. One of the things I actually love here.


New promo/teaser video in the works, weld-up coming, and then it starts going back together! Please stay tuned...



*Happy Independence Day DIYers!!!
*Pics from Red White & Boom (random from 'net).*
*


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, I'm at the dollar theatre today (Spiderman 2) and get an unexpected text from Curt. He started welding on the frame and wanted to know if I could stop by to help. I had other plans but told him I'd stop by for as long as I could. 

Long story-short, he only did a couple little places and we agreed he would wait until I could be there.

First thing is he didn't really understand me about how to move the welding around to make sure it pulls evenly in the fixture. He didn't do any damage, as he literally only welded a small section in a couple places, but they weren't strategically opposed. I could still feel a tiny bit of heat in the right side and top of the frame - I'm glad he stopped and didn't keep putting heat on that side.

I pulled it off the fixture to make sure nothing moved - all good. I started working on fitting the saddle plates better and realized the whole process was going to be pretty long and agreed with him to wait for a better day. Second thing is I also realized the two lower tubes to connect the rear subframe need to be welded at the same time the rest of the frame is; not later. I still need to buy that tubing and fit it. 

The third thing is I think I want MIG and blend. His welds were small and neat, but as soon as I saw it I realized that TIG stacks are just not the vision I have in my head. This frame, this whole bike, is supposed to be a design statement, more art than motor vehicle. I had just spent a couple hours staring at the model, earlier in the day, visualizing different materials and finishes, so _what_ I want it to be was fresh in my head. MIG and blend may, or may not, mean it won't get approved by sanctioning bodies but 200MPH is a small part of what this is about. If it doesn't pass tech I will just find some non-sanctioned place to run it; like Henessey just did to hit 270 in the Venom.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I wanted to see how Scrape looked with a little upscale socioeconomic company, so I grabbed a Pagani Huayra (my current fav supercar) from the Google SketchUp Warehouse (credit to Gonzalo A. for the awesome model - I didn't model the car he or she did).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ken says he wants to run the first test class on the big CNC mill next week, and I told him I could have something ready to cut by then. It's really hard for my to dumb-down my stuff to 2D, and be okay with what I will walk away with, but I think I've succeeded with the battery box carrier brackets. A handful of simple pocket and profile cuts, all done with a single .500" straight end mill - what he needs to demonstrate the typical kind of stuff the mill will do at CIF. I plan to turn/machine really elaborate buttons, that match the seat button, for the box mounts. That will put a little Todd _flavor_ back in it ; and might try to run a ball end mill around the top edges. That would give a scalloped corner, instead of the traditional straight, chamfered, or filleted, in simple 2.5D operations. We can do that after the class, if it doesn't fit in the time constraints.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The hunk of billet, waiting...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow that looks extravagant and sexy Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow that looks extravagant and sexy Todd!


Hey Tyler. It took a little headbanging to get "me" to come out this well with 2.5D operations - thanks for confirming that I am on the right track.  I forgot to describe the final processes.

After they're cut, I will probably do a manual mill operation, with a large ball end mill, to cut coves in the back of the top sections of these brackets - to allow them to mate to the frame rail.

Next, I will fabricate a little fixture that bolts between the two lower mounting points, to keep them straight and properly aligned. Then, I will use hardwood blocks on the hydraulic press to subtly shape the top to follow the curvature of Scrape's lower frame rails. I usually use heat when hammerforming 6061. I am going to use a small strip to test, and determine whether or not I need it for this process.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Covering my bases, checking, and double-checking. My original thoughts for these were to be full, 3D, CAD/CNC, sculptured masterpieces. When I _dumbed-them-down_ for the win-win opportunity of getting them cut, and helping CIF demonstrate/test their big CNC mill, I was going to turn the lower mounts and weld them into the brackets but realized the opportunity to add my sculptured buttons (glorified washers). I wanted to test that in CAD, to make sure I would like the final result - YUP! 

If you remember, the buttons are kind of warped, and not concentric in the center counterbore. I plan to _massage_ the aluminum pins a bit, by hand, to regain the clearance on the top side. To remove the battery pack, I'll simply unplug the connectors, and pull the quick release pins ... The buttons are rendered here in a bronze-ish texture. Next I'll try these on digital Scrape. I'm also thinking about sculptured battery box sides that fit into these brackets, so as I raise the box up into the bracket it automatically locates, and has some serious mechanical/aesthetic "flavor". I do have that big sheet of 6061...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That battery box would be epic Todd art, you have to try do it now you've let the cat out the bag! It would transform the box from a crate with fancy brackets to an artistic form of function and sculpture! You can do it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That battery box would be epic Todd art, you have to try do it now you've let the cat out the bag! It would transform the box from a crate with fancy brackets to an artistic form of function and sculpture! You can do it!


 I'm afraid to start on them now that I really _see_ them - I tend to get lost in CAD when I go in my workshop. My friends and associates usually tell me they were ready to send the cadaver dogs in...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Might be better with a lower profile release pin. I don't like the lever arm.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Might be better with a lower profile release pin. I don't like the lever arm.


I hear you. It's not my first choice either, I was testing a reasonable option. These things are expensive. The L-handle pins are $25 each. My favorites, on the right below, are the all stainless narrow head pins, but they're $50 each - $200 for four freakin pins!  Honestly, it will initially get the simple non-locking pins, on the left - $10 each - with a simple braided stainless finger loop lanyard. I'm not too concerned about four pins coming loose, simultaneously, until I start building more speed. Then, I may pop for my favs. For racing, they will probably make me use bolts and nuts. Notice the difference in the size of the locking balls? You get what you pay for...









I do love that narrow head pin though...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A look at the bracket on digital Scrape. The bend isn't quite right because I had to grab it from a point a little too far forward to not warp the bottom, and it still twisted the upper front section more than it really will be (notice it's actually in the box a bit). I used the plain cheapo quick release pins. I might play with this digital bend a little more, for real-world _dress rehearsal_, when I have some time. I also added a little blue LED glow between the footpeg and socket/pivot point on the frame. 










I'm off to Great Machine - we're welding the frame today.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Under my direction of when and where to weld, to make sure it pulls evenly, Curt is doing a nice job of keeping the heat restricted to the weld area. Tight fighting joints, with proper technique, allow you to melt, fuse, fill, and move before the heat wicks out into the rest of the material. This project is giving him valuable experience in welding at angles, and with techniques, he doesn't normally see. It makes me glad I let him weld it, and reminds me of the good old days when my interns were, literally, sweating it out and doing awesome things, in the Inhaler Project. 










We put about four hours in Friday, and have one more session to weld the hoop to the lower rails, the swingarm pivot cups, and the lower supports; then I can reassemble the bike. It will go together and come apart a couple times, to add the gussets, various brackets, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This went well. I was able to come up with battery box sides that are also achievable with 2.5D machining. It should only take three tools; a 0.500" straight end mill, a 0.500" ball end mill, and a 0.125-.250" end mill for inside the Bat-T logo standoff. I will also model that logo with much more detail and machine, or 3d print and cast, it in bronze or something. The buttons and logo provide enough detail that I am happy with the 2.5D machining on the other parts. The box itself will require a simple, U-shaped, bent sheet center section welded between these, and probably a smoked polycarbonate cover. The front chin spoiler section will be bent in.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome Todd. And the bronze logo is the icing! You have to do that, without too much unnecessary weight though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Awesome Todd. And the bronze logo is the icing! You have to do that, without too much unnecessary weight though!


Thanks Tyler!  It looks pretty sweet with the chin spoiler bent. I tried to install it on digital Scrape and post a rendering, but the render kept crashing. There must be something corrupt in what I did. I ran out of time and had to leave. Hopefully, I'll get that sorted out tonight or tomorrow and we'll get a look (All I saw was the wireframe).

The logo is pretty thin, so it will be pretty light. I agree - gotta do that...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Chin spoiler is what will define it as a performance artwork, rather than a DIY cage with a box of batteries in it! (Albeit an exotic one). I can't wait to see that. 


I've been pondering how to kick myself into gear with an actual bike build rather than design and postulation, and I'm torn between wetting my feet for practice and financial security with doing a powerful cycle conversion (bicycle running gear with a ~5kw drive system) to get the basics and practicalities understood or going straight into a bike build. I'm honestly looking at how you progressed from your simple 48v system and lead cells to the current design and how well that developed your overall design solution and final product and I like the journey, experience and improvement made by progressing in stages. Still some thinking and planning to do to decide, and get the Mrs' approval


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Chin spoiler is what will define it as a performance artwork, rather than a DIY cage with a box of batteries in it! (Albeit an exotic one). I can't wait to see that...


 I am trying to get a rendering of it on the bike. Something bad happened somewhere in the file, and I haven't found it yet. CAD life... it happens occasionally.

Worse case is I have to reassemble digital Scrape, from the wheels up, but since all the parts are modeled, and usually saved in the position they are in on the bike, that's not hard, just time-consuming.

I'm also still waiting for Ken, from CIF, to give me a day/time to work out the machine process, so I spit out the g-code and make these pieces happen. I'm ready to go. I think they have to move the machine, to fit yet another little CNC mill that just came in. It's a smaller, enclosed machine, that's going beside the big dude.






tylerwatts said:


> ...I've been pondering how to kick myself into gear with an actual bike build rather than design and postulation, and I'm torn between wetting my feet for practice and financial security with doing a powerful cycle conversion (bicycle running gear with a ~5kw drive system) to get the basics and practicalities understood or going straight into a bike build. I'm honestly looking at how you progressed from your simple 48v system and lead cells to the current design and how well that developed your overall design solution and final product and I like the journey, experience and improvement made by progressing in stages. Still some thinking and planning to do to decide, and get the Mrs' approval


Of course I recommend the motorcycle, because you can scale up to a full road-going vehicle. I highly, highly, recommend playing with a 48v system. You can get golf cart and forklift parts dirt cheap off eBay, so it's a (relatively) safe, fun, way to get some experience with this. They're not popular around here, but I think those AGM scooter/wheelchair batteries are worth their weight in gold. If I had filled the entire engine space with 12 of them, in normal EV bike practice, I would have around 10-15 miles of (theoretical) range, the ability to run 48, 72, or 96 volts, for under $600 (battery cost). They would still onloy weight about 150lbs. Used more conservatively than the abuse I've subjected them to in Scrape, they should last more than long enough to save up for a set of LiFePO cells to replace them.

I also like my little Altrax controller. It's smooth, quiet, and super reliable. I only paid $225 for it, used, but the new ones are around that price. So, AGMs, Alltrax, golf cart/forklift parts, and you have a fun little motorcycle dirt cheap. You can build a P&S Open Revolt controller on the side, and move up to 96v, then eventually replace the lead with lithium, and have a really sweet little bike, done in affordable, manageable, stages.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As suspected, it turned out to something corrupt in the file. I reverted back to a previously saved version (just before trying the new box), and everything started working again. I promptly discarded the corrupt version...

Without further ado, here's the _whittled_ box, with curved-in shin spoiler, hung from the new bracket, on digital Scrape. The box floor, front, and back, are a single piece of bent aluminum sheet, as previously mentioned. The top is a piece of lightly-tinted polycarbonate, allowing a peek at the lipo cells. I will eventually throw some blue LEDs in there... The big blue ball is to allow me to use the black background - the fairing and iPhone got lost in the background without it. That ball is supposed to be the Earth, but for some reason my Earthmap texture didn't work - I'll get that sorted out later. The black background makes the bike pop more.









I'm playing with textures here, to allow the different components to be more easily recognizable. I'm not sure there will be this much contrast on the real bike. I'd like to stick to more race-appropriate anodizing, etc, so most of the aluminum is rendered in black hard anodizing. The battery box texture shown here could be done with a chemical patina process, then (flat) clear power coating; similar to what I was thinking for the steel tank (subwoofer) shell, but with a different final appearance from using the same process on different metals.

Finally, the rear kickout will mount a super mechanical-technical forced air cooling system for the little DC motor, so eventually that space will be much more visually intriguing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

All the time spent on the frame design worked. As a foundation, it is providing exactly what I need to do something very _Todd_. The whittled, mechanical, battery box is the first course of bricks laid on that foundation. The intent there though was really to keep the technology on display, steering clear of the EV bike plastic blob, while adding some traditional motorcycle engineering sophistication. Now we start building. This is the beginning of the power control module. That former carbon frame is history, that will be replaced with a full CAD/CNC bracket that mounts the Zilla, Hairball, contactor(s), throttle pot, etc; and flows up from the battery box bracket.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That box looks great with the fins Todd. The flow of lines a lovely. Almost makes it look like a ram air cooling duct, hiding the controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That box looks great with the fins Todd. The flow of lines a lovely. Almost makes it look like a ram air cooling duct, hiding the controller.


Thanks!  

Here's the finned Zilla in the bike, and with a pewter-ish texture on the motor, battery box, and controller. My hope is that all together it has a touch of the elegance of an old air-cooled bike engine, via the fins, with a little newfangled electric drive spice. All with creative design in the _actual_ components' skin, no Hollywood makeup.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any plans to contour the top and rear of the controller? The boxy shape makes it look like the fins were just stuck on the sides of a box. Just a rolled edge on the top rear of the controller would help I think.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any plans to contour the top and rear of the controller? The boxy shape makes it look like the fins were just stuck on the sides of a box. Just a rolled edge on the top rear of the controller would help I think.


There's going to be a pretty substantial CAD/CNC aluminum bracket that mounts it to the frame rails. You won't see that top edge (actually the bottom of the Zilla) at all. It will also have a, smoke-tinted, polycarbonate bubble on top (in the center, over the Hairball, contactors, etc), so (hopefully) the end result will look like a wicked power electronics control module, with deeply finned sides.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ken sent me the post info for the mill last night, so today I started working through the process. Bore the box mounting holes, pocket cuts for the recessed areas, profile cuts to reveal the parts. All with a single 0.500" straight end mill. That will be for the class instruction demo.

After the class, we have a little fun, making it a little more _Todd_. A ball-end mill will be used to radius the transition of the gussets up into the main surface (the pocket cuts are designed to leave a block of material in the corners); and then cut a cove around the profile of the brackets to give it my preferred sculptured look. All 2.5D, simple, machining; two tools.









I will probably to back and redo the pocket cuts on the four box mounts to leave a little material there as well, and add a radius to that transition. The radius prevents stress risers in the part, and I definitely don't want them to break there!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been swamped with a client's project lately, and haven't been able to even think about Scrape much. We had the CNC test class tonight, but didn't cut the brackets. Ken and I tested one of the files yesterday, but I need to do some tweaking in CAM before they're ready; and, it would have been much too long of a process for the initial test class - of course, it's mine. We did run the mill through about half of one of the profile cuts, and it was fun to see it following my commands. 

Soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We're still sorting stuff out with the CNC and inching our way closer to cutting the brackets. Curt and I are also inching our way back to the TIG to finish up the frame.

In preparation for putting Scrape back together soon, I spent a couple hours at my storage unit today, staring at the parts, researching parts and supplies (gotta love smartphones), and thinking through it.

I realized that, even though we welded the rear frame section in permanently, I can still break the bike down relatively easily. I just have to remove the chain, because the motor would stay with the frame. From there the quick release pin setup for the pegs, and using quick release pins in place of the bolts on the shock would allow the entire rear suspension system to slide out and off - I think. I will test this when I get the chassis setup (before it gets too much weight on it); and test stuffing it in the back seat...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You know me: never one to leave well enough alone; always thinking, looking, seeking, trying... I decided to see what the H1 tank would look like on Scrape again, this far along in its evolution. The last time I remember trying it, it was still the bike with the carbon body. Now it's a completely original frame concept, that was designed with a tank shell in mind. So I'll stare at this for a while and try to figure out which I like best. You?


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Todd, long time listener, first time poster here!

I've followed your builds for a while now and am continually impressed with your creativity and your fearlessness in pursuing your vision. 

On the gas tank, just my opinion, but it looks so much like an ICE tank. I can't offer what would look better other than to say it needs more of the 'Todd touch'! As in, on an electric bike, start with a blank sheet of paper and make something to fit in the tank space that screams original, different, and this is not your daddy's bike! 

I'm sure that whatever you end up with will blow us all away, and I can't wait to see it!

Paul


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Baratong said:


> Hello Todd, long time listener, first time poster here!
> 
> I've followed your builds for a while now and am continually impressed with your creativity and your fearlessness in pursuing your vision.
> 
> ...


Hey Paul, welcome to active life on the forum!

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. If I do use a traditional tank shell there it won't be a normal one.  The final decision has a lot of external factors involved. I'm trying to make Scrape serve my business more effectively as a marketing tool. The problem with a lot of my crazier ideas, like the original body, is prospective clients say "wow" along with everyone else, but they don't make the connection back to how it's applicable and relevant to their needs. I need them to see something they need in things I have done...

I generate more fanfare with my true _Todd_ stuff, but (sadly) I tend to make more money when I tone it down a bit and cater, at least a tad, to convention. 

One of my favorite quotes:

“It is a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead — and find no one there.” – Franklin D. Roosevelt

Todd


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Spending a little time at the storage unit today, getting all the crap I piled in Scrape's spot out of the way. 

The piece of tubing we need should be here tomorrow, and sometime this week or weekend we'll probably finish welding the frame - then it's time to start reassembling it!  So, this morning it hit me - better have a place to put it! 

It was actually easier than I expected, and I actually have more space for the bike than I did when it was last in there, in one piece; even though there's a lot more stuff now. The only glitch is I can't find the fork springs. I remember moving them one day, to keep them from getting mangled. I just can't seem to figure out where the safe place I found for them happens to be... 

Soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think I've settled on the H1 style tank shell. It gives Scrape a little Boardtracker flavor, that really works for me. (https://www.google.com/search?q=boa...S-64HoDg&ved=0CBsQsAQ&biw=320&bih=460#imgrc=_) 

Now to decide what ridiculous method I will use to produce my little subwoofer. Most extreme is machine the whole thing from solid billet aluminum? Machine it from something softer, pull silicone molds, and have it cast in pewter? Machine it from wood "billet", and stain it black so that you first see a black shell and eventually _find_ the wood grain? Machine MDF molds and bag it in carbon?

Any way it goes I am pretty sure I am going to do two halves that bolt or bond together, with a contrasting metal center rib. I am fairly certain this will be an exercise in CAD/CNC madness....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My 200MPH decorative office furnishing. 

Paying careful attention to lessons learned, I am poking my nose into this subwoofer plan. The carbon body that originally graced Scrape's backside was a long trip down the wrong road - the lesson learned. I had a ridiculous amount of work in it, and exponentially more left to do, to make it live up to my vision. Then, I realized that I created it to hide the original frame, and that I wouldn't have created anything like it working from scratch! Time to bail...

I know electric presents the opportunity to redefine the motorcycle, because the ICE and the iconic dino fuel tank aren't welcome or necessary, but the aesthetic of the fuel tank is one of the elements of motorcycles I love most. It's arguably _the_ defining characteristic and, in custom applications, often receives a disproportionate amount of the project resources. In vintage applications, the tank and engine were what gave the bike its visual identity.

Running with my beloved H1 tank theme (one of my favorites), I chose to explore wood first. Back to the point about lessons learned, I had to find a way to keep the process from spiraling out of control. The first challenge is to keep me from going out and purchasing a 10" thick chunk of wood, and attempting to machine it without it imploding. I spent over two years playing with the last 3" thick piece... I also don't want my tank to look like it was whittled from someone's cutting board, so a traditional glue-up won't do for me. The solution I found was the pinstriped aesthetic from boat building. I might have the thin layers a bit darker in real life, but they got lost in the CAD model, if too dark. The logo would also be less apparent, and would be laser cut into the wood and poured full of bronze metal powder filled resin.









The process would be to glue-up the wood "billet", machine the inside cavity, do the carbon layup, machine the outside shape, then sand and finish. I would purposely leave a bit of extra material on the outside for hand finishing. That keeps me from getting lost for countless hours in CAD developing Class-A surfaces, and then spending an equally insane amount of time on the machine bringing those surfaces to near perfection. Hand sanding should bring out the beauty of the wood and give it a luxury-goods furniture aesthetic; what I'm seeking here. If I can barter services with one of CIF's excellent woodworkers, my role would be limited to design and machining.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Time to chime in again.
I like following your mental process as much as your physical progress, Todd. And I'm pretty jealous of your mad CAD skillz. And, I'm really liking what the bike looks like in that picture. 

As others have said, I've got my popcorn and my soda and I'm enjoying the show.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Time to chime in again.
> I like following your mental process as much as your physical progress, Todd. And I'm pretty jealous of your mad CAD skillz. And, I'm really liking what the bike looks like in that picture.
> 
> As others have said, I've got my popcorn and my soda and I'm enjoying the show.
> ...


Thanks a million Bill, and everyone here who views (160,354 in 2yrs) and comments (879 total, counting this one - 315 not mine) on my madness.  I love to share, and it's nice to know there are people missing enough of their own marbles to appreciate it...


Hang on because we're really just getting started. The past five years on this site, and two years on this project, have been me trying to find a suitable platform to exercise myself on. I think I've finally found it in Scrape. I hope I did, anyway.

Soon it starts going back together, as _my_ creation, with the new frame; and soon I really start pushing things in design...





dedlast said:


> ...And I'm pretty jealous of your mad CAD skillz...


Thanks again. It took me 38 years to find a medium that lets me get the madness in my head out, and probably another half of a decade to realize I had found it. I'm really starting to hit my stride with CAD now, because I have finally made the big leap (in priorities) from shop to design. I'm still just wading in the low end of the pool though...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lower braces are fit and ready to be burned in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was supposed to meet a client, and a student, at CIF yesterday. The client cancelled, and the little fabrication project I did for the student was handled quickly, so I ended up just hanging out. Ric, from the Motorcycle Hall of Fame, is a bronze caster and I want to cast Scrape's buttons in bronze. Free time, and perfect opportunity, led to us diving in. Ric and his friend/fellow artist Walter have a studio at CIF now, and will be teaching bronze casting, among other things. They both jumped at the opportunity to show me the process.

He prepped the seat button with a light coat of petroleum jelly, as a mold release agent.










And then hand formed a silicone mold around it, using his super cost-effective, simple technique.










Today we'll split that open and, if it's good, cast a wax plug. A plaster investment mold will be formed around that, and eventually bronze poured. I also need to cut a plug for the battery box buttons.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ric couldn't make it yesterday, so all I did was split the silicone mold and remove the button. First, I sliced the top off, over the sprue.











Then, cut carefully, without touching the plug, down the side until I had just enough of an opening to remove it. From what I can see and feel, it appears to be a decent little mold. The imperfections I feel would leave a little extra material, which can be easily removed.











The next part of this plan, for a bronze seat button, calls for casting a wax plug in this mold. I think I am also going to make another one, and try casting a pewter button, directly in the silicone mold.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You may remember that I was working on the motor drive system, with the goal being to give an electric bike the same type of mechanical sophistication that makes naked ICE bikes so awesome. In the midst of that I realized that I had ended up with a big blob - the battery box - that I had been trying so hard to avoid, from the beginning of this project. A detour to break the blob up into distinct, functional, elements was traveled.

Back to the sophistication journey, next, I sorted the fins out on the Zilla cover. The point, by the way, is those fins trace the power, sweeping back from the batteries, and radiating down into the motor. However, before I could devote my attention to the bracket that would mount it, I had to sort out the subwoofer (tank), because all this stuff is supposed to look like it was actually designed to be together. Somewhere in staring at the Sportster tank shell, the idea to try my beloved H1 tank again occurred - it worked really well.

So now, finally back to what's supposed to be the cornerstone of this ensemble, I started to see what I was looking for in the motor drive system main bracket. (yellow, highlighted, curves) It will sweep off of the lower frame rails, flowing up from the battery box brackets, and wrap around the Zilla. It's deeply scalloped to allow a good peep at its finned case, and sweeps under the H1 tank to kind of highlight it, like a jewelry stone set in metal. There will be a smoked, bubbled, polycarbonate cover over the top allowing a peek at the Hairball, contactor, etc. The battery cells will be visible through a smoked polycarbonate box lid. I will also do something special with the cables and such that transmit power between the three. So, the more you look, the more you see, the more you can understand how it all works.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds great Todd.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Sounds great Todd.


Thanks Tyler. 


I'll stare at this for a while and, if I'm satisfied with the basic shape, I will unroll the surfaces, back to 2D, and then develop the actual 3D machine surfaces from that. My goal is for these brackets to be realized via full 3D machining, but starting with a 6" thick block of billet just to get those two rear tail sections would be mad; I can easily form those, post machining. I'm thinking it will be whittled out of 1" thick plate, but won't know for sure until I start the model.









Wow, I just hit 4000 posts, and this thread 901!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My clients' project are enjoyable because, after I hand over the design, they're no longer my responsibility to make happen. My personal projects, while loading me with burden of realization, are my place to think and explore, unrestricted. I have yet to meet a client that doesn't have budgetary restrictions to my obsessive adventures. In that regard, Scrape has been the most rewarding experience; ever. Every time I open digital Scrape and start playing, I find more, and more, and more... 

Today, while thinking about transportation options, I had Scrape folded up (like a person touching their toes), and then thought I wonder what it would look like folded the other way. It wouldn't fold as neatly, but along the way I saw this side street, and just had to explore.  It's really just changing the rear suspension setup (shorter shock and/or longer linkage), to lower the rear end of the bike - that's it.









Then, the exploration begins. Of course the battery pack had to be shoved higher in the frame, for ground clearance. That required a more narrow box, which affords the fringe benefit of allowing me to bump the voltage of my current AGM pack to 72v; with two additional batteries stacked vertically. In a Turnigy A-Spec pack, this would be 192 (1s/2p) modules, configured 64s/3p, for a ~237v/18ah pack. I had to lose the finned case on the motor, and the Zilla had to mount to the front of the pack, standing vertically. The Hairball is behind the pack, and would be on a panel/in an enclosure with the rest of the electronic stuff (contactor, throttle pot, etc). The clip-ons need to be lowered, I knocked the pins out of the chain, the seat stays need to be rotated, etc, etc. It would probably look killer with a mild (maybe 3") stretch too. Of course everything would get a proper _Toddification_, if I chose to do this.

Just playing with design at this point. We should have the frame welded up enough to begin reassembly then, and I can at least see how this would play out in real life...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We finished up the main welding on the frame today; pics later tonight or tomorrow. The gussets and brackets will be done in the second round but it's time to throw it together now and see how my design plays out in reality.

I talked to one of the best woodworkers at CIF a few minutes ago, and he's up for doing the glue-up on the wood "billet" blocks for the tank. I needed someone good to make sure it's nice - can't have hidden voids and patches of glue turn up in the middle of machining; plus my allergies demand I save myself for the machining processes; as little exposure as possible to wood dust.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A couple peaks at Curt's TIG work. I plan to see how it all fits together in a bit...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Digital Scrape doing a flyby of Earth and Moon, on its Intergallatic Fireboard.  I.e., seeing what the slammed version's vertical stack battery box and Zilla look like in the real bike. The Zilla is flipped behind the battery box, for shorter cable runs to the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wednesday I finished my computer work, and then ran straight to Great Machine to pick up to the frame and begin reassembly - only to find the shop locked up.  Eric was out of town, and Curt decided to take the day off...

Thursday, same routine, and Great was open for business. I grabbed the frame, fixture, tools, and parts, and blasted my way to the storage unit. Okay, I drive a Saturn sedan, maybe I didn't quite _blast_ my way there.  I decided to do the initial reassembly at the storage unit, so I could take my time, and feel like I am in anyone's way. I'll take the parts that need attention to Great or CIF, and back to the storage unit, until I have a running bike again. Anyway, here's the frame.










And - _finally_ - Scrape 2.5.2! 



















The first thing I will need to do is notch the frame a bit for the motor. The motor is relocated to the left a bit, in preparation for the big 250 tire, someday. I never put this little bearing cup on the CAD motor, so I didn't catch this. It is actually going to work out really nice because I will machine a dished piece to weld into the frame, with drilled and tapped holes, and a matching aluminum U-clamp for the motor side. It should be really clean, and easy to install/remove.











My new frame can swallow twice the battery pack; literally. I know some of you here aren't fond of my blatantly boxy boxes, but I really love this. It took me a while to adjust, but I eventually started to like the huge blocks the EV sport and race bikes have stuffed under the bodywork, running from tank to lower fairing, between the frame spars. Blocks - not plastic blobs, like the EV naked bikes end up with. A true naked bike is a sportbike stripped down to its undies, and this is sorta what an EV naked bike should look like. Of course, I have some _Todd-ness_ in mind for it, but I like the boxy form...










More to come...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

You are getting there!

The battery box looks like the right proportions, that you could paint it to look like a giant 9-volt battery.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> You are getting there!...


Thanks Ken!  It sure feels good...





ken will said:


> ...The battery box looks like the right proportions, that you could paint it to look like a giant 9-volt battery.


 You know, if I had a sense of humor, instead of a perfectionist stick up my... I would do that! 

A big 9v Duracell, but made from black chrome and copper plated aluminum, with a big carbon fiber snap connector in place of the tank, with huge 0000 red and black cables running out of it and down into the controller! 

Ultimately though, I am not that much fun.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You know, if I had a sense of humor, instead of a perfectionist stick up my... I would do that!
> 
> A big 9v Duracell, but made from black chrome and copper plated aluminum, with a big carbon fiber snap connector in place of the tank, with huge 0000 red and black cables running out of it and down into the controller!
> 
> Ultimately though, I am not that much fun.


You could make a scale model of it....


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> A big 9v Duracell, but made from black chrome and copper plated aluminum, with a big carbon fiber snap connector in place of the tank, with huge 0000 red and black cables running out of it and down into the controller!


Wow, now you have to admit, that would be AWESOME!


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You could make a scale model of it....


I wonder how many kiosks, Duracell has in the world. Most Grocery stores, Pharmacies, Department stores,... At only 1 dollar each Todd could make millions!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

ken will said:


> I wonder how many kiosks, Duracell has in the world. Most Grocery stores, Pharmacies, Department stores,... At only 1 dollar each Todd could make millions!!


Todd!
You've gotta do this!

Just think of how much time you could spend on doing the fun jobs if you income comes from the rights for the scale models!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You could make a scale model of it....





Baratong said:


> Wow, now you have to admit, that would be AWESOME!





ken will said:


> I wonder how many kiosks, Duracell has in the world. Most Grocery stores, Pharmacies, Department stores,... At only 1 dollar each Todd could make millions!!





Woodsmith said:


> Todd!
> You've gotta do this!
> 
> Just think of how much time you could spend on doing the fun jobs if you income comes from the rights for the scale models!


You guys are nuts!  What are we talking about here, making actual 9v battery sized Scrapes and selling them? It making giant 9v Duracells?


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I've got to admit... That would be cool... 

As always... It's great to see progress on the bike...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> I've got to admit... That would be cool...
> 
> As always... It's great to see progress on the bike...


Thanks Mike. 

Just for kicks, when I get some _free_ time, I'll try a Photoshopped Duracell in Scrape.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You guys are nuts!  What are we talking about here, making actual 9v battery sized Scrapes and selling them? It making giant 9v Duracells?


Yup, making little 9v battery sized Scrapes and selling them.

Think of the publicity and souvenirs you could be selling at shows and stuff. You could market them as a means of providing the funding to get big Scrape finished. 
You could then get Duracell sponsorship too (just for the scale models though)!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Yup, making little 9v battery sized Scrapes and selling them.
> 
> Think of the publicity and souvenirs you could be selling at shows and stuff. You could market them as a means of providing the funding to get big Scrape finished.
> You could then get Duracell sponsorship too (just for the scale models though)!


Something similar to that has been in my plans for the past few years, but through licensing others to manufacture toys, apparel, and merchandise - not me. When I moved the Inhaler into CIF, and the Inhaler Project was created, that was the big picture goal - branding, licensing, royalties. When I transferred my racing goals to Scrape, that transferred with it. Nic and I had quite a few strategy sessions on how to build towards that goal.

A lesson learned in life: things are usually, almost exponentially, more difficult than you think they'll be. So, other than providing design services and supporting CAD models, I don't think I want to be the one manufacturing, assembling, and shipping/selling, all those little 9v Scrapies! 







toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Mike.
> 
> Just for kicks, when I get some _free_ time, I'll try a Photoshopped Duracell in Scrape.


Caveat: as stated, I am not this much fun in real life; only in CAD and Photoshop.  I took a little creative license with the copper top, adding some _Todd_ curvature. Sorry for the extra tagging - silly pics like this circulate more than my usual drivel, so I'd at least like to have a fair chance at directing viewers back to me, from where ever this pic sails to.  I need to add a motor controller...


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


>


This is probably the best thing ever. We can stop the world now.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow!! I love this 9v battery look!


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, this has got to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen! I love it!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just when I thought Todd might be on task and getting things done, you guys go and completely derail him  





 It does look cool though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> This is probably the best thing ever. We can stop the world now.





MN Driver said:


> Wow!! I love this 9v battery look!





Baratong said:


> Ok, this has got to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen! I love it!





JRP3 said:


> ... It does look cool though.


Thanks guys - remember the caveat... 




JRP3 said:


> Just when I thought Todd might be on task and getting things done, you guys go and completely derail him ...


Lol, I am not sure where to start, and how to take that buster! 

_*"...might be on task and getting things done..."*_
So what have the past two years of countless hours of development, to get to this point, been - goofing off?! Have thou no appreciation for the design process? 


_*"...you guys go and completely derail him..."*_
One Photoshopped pic, and you're calling a national disaster on the whole project?! 

I'm smiling, and having fun, in case all the smiley faces didn't get that point across!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember, I've been waiting for you to build a functioning EV since the days on the Fiero board


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Remember, I've been waiting for you to build a functioning EV since the days on the Fiero board


Scrape has been functional for two years.


In 2012, barely so, but it _was_ capable of surface street speeds; fine print: for a mile or two.
 Since 2013, it has been fully capable of highway speeds, and up to 10 miles of range at surface street speeds.
I've focused on exhibition and racing from the start.

I've just been using it how it best suited my goals - as an exhibition/demonstration vehicle. Driving an EV in Columbus, for my daily transportation needs, doesn't really add up. I will add racing, and a little street time, to the previous accomplishments, but I say it's been a functional EV for a couple years. It does everything an EV should do, and has met my needs...  back at ya!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Caveat: Journal entry. Skip to about halfway, for the build-related content.


After a really intense mental struggle, reaching this milestone with Scrape is a really huge deal. Anyone who has been following this thread for a while has likely witnessed my incessant ranting about life here in Columbus. It was actually frustration, anger, and eventually rage, bubbling to the surface; and it was really about, and directed at, myself as much as this apathetic city. What was bothering me is the fact that I had let mediocrity become a part of _my_ life and plans. _I_ made the decision to interact so formally with these people, and allow them to begin watering down my own visions and plans. Regardless of what is or isn't happening here, my actions, or lack thereof, let them become a factor in my world. 

I rant to get things off my chest, prevent myself from bottling crap up, and to hear/see what's going on in my life - puts a mirror in my face. It caused me to take action. The first step was moving out of CIF (as a business resident). The second step was mentally getting back to the basics of _Todd_; finding out what was off track, and making the necessary cuts and adjustments. Next, I donned my blinders and ear plugs and set out to make Scrape, my chosen sword, an accurate depiction of _me_.

I see it. It worked. It's there, in tangible form. Even the little gremlins that were sitting on my shoulders trying to discourage me from being _me_ are admitting that they were wrong, and that they too see it. 

Feels incredible.  And, this is just the warm up...



*Build Related*
With better focus, and realizing that my hunch was right, and that Scrape is "it", I see all the other parts and plans differently. For example: I have a thought for building an _intelligent_, complementary, support trailer for Scrape - with the remains of Schism. 

I have the front frame section, and suspension parts. A simple center beam, with a receiver, and a rail, would quickly make that a trailer. Because it was designed and developed to be the electric-drive half of the hybrid, it's ready for electric power. I still have the hubs and axles. Later, I could put two small, lightweight, AC, motors on the trailer. By simply plugging Scrape's pack in when it's onboard it could accomplish a quite a few things: 

One, it could work as a pusher trailer while towing.

Two, it could serve a mobile charging station for the pack. I could go from venue to venue and be charged and ready upon arrival. On level ground, and uphill grades, it would have an MPG penalty, but when needed could be priceless. 

Three, it could also house the big charger, allowing me to park Scrape (in safe areas) at public charging stations to refuel, while I dine, rest, and try to be social. 

Four, it could move around without the assistance of the tow vehicle using a joystick controller, and caster wheel on the tongue jack. No backing up trying to find the trailer - just motor the trailer right up to the ball. No sweat getting it in and out of the storage unit, or tight spaces, just unhitch and drive it in. If I want to get really silly with this, I also still have that racing steering rack, and could make the main wheels steer too - I could sit on Scrape, on the trailer, and drift it into a parallel parking space! . Could also, with some practice, negotiate almost impossible turns while towing; and back up like no other trailer on Earth. 

Five, it could play supporting cast at events; serving as a work stand, charging station, and eye candy (remember that frame section has my design work and some of my interns' sculptured steel madness in it.). I could also (in theory) take kids (and pretty adults) for rides (at a walking pace) on Scrape, on the trailer. 



* On the actual bike:* I also figured out that I think I can hide the rear brake master cylinder and reservoir behind the motor (between motor and rear shock), and use a simple rocker arm off the pedal to push it. So just a simple, neat, aluminum brake pedal peeking out from under the peg. 

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Scrape has been functional for two years.



I guess in my mind "functional" included performance beyond that of an electric bicycle.  I want to see ol' Scrape reach it's true potential. I was denied that with the Inhaler  (It's all about me, after all  )


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I guess in my mind "functional" included performance beyond that of an electric bicycle.  I want to see ol' Scrape reach it's true potential. I was denied that with the Inhaler  (It's all about me, after all  )


I know I haven't posted video proof but Scrape is far beyond bicycle performance now. I've limited it to 50mph-ish and slower starts because I didn't have seals and oil in the forks, or gauges to see how much current I was drawing from the batteries. I haven't been worried about testing it further, or proving it, because to me (coming from ICE crotch rockets) it's still pitifully slow. It worked well enough to let me know the chassis was stable enough to pursue ridiculous speeds on. It's one of the most confidence-inspiring bikes I've ever ridden, with everything wrong...

So there! . Sit tight, it's a comin'


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Love that! 

You should look at finding a company to make the little 9V Scrapes.

I can just imagine the sales stall at the drag strip while big Scrape does the quarter mile with Duracell sponsorship.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Using Scrape's pack to power the trailer is inspired!
I should have thought about that for building a trailer for the tractor.

As the truck develops I might see if I can have a powered trailer for transporting it about.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Love that!
> 
> You should look at finding a company to make the little 9V Scrapes.
> 
> I can just imagine the sales stall at the drag strip while big Scrape does the quarter mile with Duracell sponsorship.


That would be the plan. I would do a sponsorship deal if it was financial to support the mission. So, if a company like Duracell wanted to kick some funds, with no mention of the real Scrape being powered by them, maybe with exclusive rights to power the toys...

In addition to the performance/racing goals, I hope to take Scrape to schools to demo it, and try to inspire kids to think big and reach for the stars. All the stuff I was doing with the Inhaler Project is still burning inside me, and waiting to be implemented. The summer of 2012 was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life, with my merry band of metal-sculpting interns. 






Woodsmith said:


> Using Scrape's pack to power the trailer is inspired!...


Thanks Woody!  It's such a simple concept, but has been so elusive. It solves almost all of the issues I had with towing Scrape. It keeps me focused on Scrape, while still using some of the parts I have and don't want to completely abandon; and avoids the temptation of "hey, I can build another car or truck with that!"






Woodsmith said:


> ...I should have thought about that for building a trailer for the tractor.
> 
> As the truck develops I might see if I can have a powered trailer for transporting it about.


I would so love to see a Woody-built powered trailer, for transporting a Woody-built EV!!!

Please do!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A peek inside the beginning of my design process. Two of my goals with Scrape have been to, as openly as possible, display how EV technology looks and works; and to develop, with the actual EV components, the level of sophistication that is common to naked ICE bikes. Initially, I was totally focused on the motor, and even attempted to hide the batteries under the body (in concept designs). Over time, I have developed a similar affinity for the iconic EV battery box, and have taken on the challenge of trying to make one look sexy.

I did this on my tiny little iPhone last night, in the SketchBook app, to sort out my thoughts. I started with a pic of Scrape with the new frame and mock-up box, drew a rectangle around the box, erased everything but the frame rail, and cropped the Bat-T logo out of another pic - all to get myself thinking in proper scale. These side panels would be cut from the large 0.750" thick plate I have. Around the perimeter, it would be the full thickness, with a 0.750" radius on the outer edge. In my head, I see a ton of counterbored fastener holes running around that perimeter frame, to allow the box to be modular, reconfigurable. I'm not sure, or sold on the four large bolts in the corners (which won't be that square - nothing will); they help me think, at this point. The inner sections, above and below the frame rail, would be fully sculptured, reducing mass as much as possible (often reducing 0.750" to 0.625" section width). The lower section features fins surrounding, the Bat-T logo; which would be bronze on raised mounts, as before. The upper section, at this point, features three (clipped and pasted) louvers to vent the enclosure. Sorry the image quality of the louvers is so poor - they're to remind me to model a louver shape I like (notice the peak in the middle?). Wait 'til you see what I see in my head for that whole section.  The louvered vents would work in concert with a ram air intake in the chin spoiler, which isn't in this initial sketch. So, cold air would rush in and push the naturally rising hot air in the box, out of the vents.










The whole box, is intended to be a structural component of the chassis, tying into the upper and lower frame rails. That space between the upper and lower sculptured sections will be thicker section width, and designed and engineered to carry loading from the frame rail. The box will also be designed to be a massive heat sink (as well as fire/explosion containment) for the battery pack, controller, and anything else that might need it. I know Zillas are liquid cooled, but it can't hurt to also be mounted to a huge sink...

And again, I am trying to pull off this powerplant meets ICE technical aesthetic. _Nothing_ would be as hard and blocky as it is in the sketch - this is just to add boundaries to the organic surfaces I see in my noggin. Even if I do decide to remove the stick from my azz and do the giant Duracell thing, it would be with this box - so, the world's most sophisticated, overgrown, 9v battery; with a sculptured and louvered copper top, over a finned and Bat-stamped, black chrome base.  It would actually be simple to pull off that basic (Duracell) illusion, because it would just be be a matter of plating and/or anodizing...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Remember this? I didn't forget about it. When I started creating the "Honey Seat" I had just begun seriously turning my attention to Scrape, making it the feature attraction, rather than supporting cast to the Inhaler and Schism. I think this seat was the beginning of my realization that I hadn't really done anything truly _Todd_ on this bike, up to that point. It was this sculpted metal assembly, hanging behind that foam body, that helped reveal the fact that Scrape (at that point) was really just an old Ninja with an electric motor. With this part, the tide had begun to turn...











It's perfectly in tune with the new chassis, the new direction. It will be fun and satisfying to finish it, and _fill_ it, now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Round and round I go... Taking a cue from lessons learned the hard way during my time here in Mediocrity, Ohio - I am stepping back. I will have an eye on my ultimate design concepts, and be prepared to realize them, but will keep the ball rolling with some quick and dirty stand-ins. Number one is the woofer. I have been talking with some CIF people about realizing that wooden dream, but I have a gut feeling the whole shebang will ultimately end up in a huge rant. These are different individuals than I tried to work with before, but I am still, _here_. Secondly, the sculptured battery box. I was ready to cut the brackets weeks ago... If running a few 2.5D toolpaths is that big of a deal, I can only guess how long it would take to get the guys off the high dive with my sculptured stuff. They won't turn over the _keys_ to the machine yet, so I can't do it myself.  The second option is cutting them at Great Machine. Even though they're currently a little more on board with my passion for excess, and admitting that I was right to tear it down and go nuts, I think there would be passive-aggressive delays, if not outright pressure to back it down.

So, I am purchasing the steel Sportster tank shell, welding a couple mounts, and (at least temporarily) calling that "mission accomplished." Point two: I am going to cut and bend an aluminum sheet metal box, to temporarily serve as my new battery box; while I feel out potential sources to do something crazy. The show must go on. I have more doubt than faith (in these people), and I want to ride my bike!  It will look like this, for at least a while...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not just go tankless until you can build it the way you want?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Why not just go tankless until you can build it the way you want?


I like it much better with something up there, and the Sporty tank shell is only $70. Plus, I actually love the Sporty tank shell. Remember that was my first choice to move away from the body.

I have also been thinking that I should have stuck with it, at least for a while, because it will probably open some marketing opportunities. It kind of emphasizes the point that Scrape is a scratch-built, _American_, custom motorcycle. I think I can use it to nudge my way into H-D circles a bit, and maybe even draw a direct comparison to H-D's LiveWire Project easier (media coverage). I can make all that happen with my H1 tank, but the Sporty tank just kind of invites comparison...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I debated with myself over whether to put this here, or start a dedicated thread. I don't want to distract from the main mission here, but I also don't want myself to become distracted by letting the trailer take on too much of a life of its own and become a side project. It is supposed to be a supporting cast item, that makes the Scrape project better, so here it is. As mentioned, I have the front frame section and suspension components from the Schism project. I also have this CAD model, so I can design the trailer the _Todd_ way. I need to crop the frame rails (they're about half of that length in real life), add the center beam, and bike rail. I want the rear half of the rail to be fold-able or removable, so that the trailer can be flipped up and stored against a wall.

I dubbed it "Scoop"...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to play a little with the battery box. The easy, temporary, solution would be to get a single piece of aluminum sheet and bend a simple box, stitch or rivet the seam, and call it a day. Where's the fun in that? 

I cut the flanges off the old box halves, and bent a piece of sheet to connect them. Once I get everything to fit nice, I will let Curt try to run (TIG) stacks around these, and all the seams. The point is just to give it a little flavor, instead of being just a plain old sheet metal box. I have an idea for lost-acrylic cast Bronze panels in the center, with pewter-filled (solder) engraving in them.  More on that soon..










In true Todd fashion, and for no real reason other than I felt like paying with the mill, I machined a couple pieces of 2 x 0.250" bar for the other side; to fit flush on the inside, and overlap a matching amount on the outside, and radiused the corners. My justification, for playing, is that they'll give me a nice strong area to weld mounts to. Wait 'til you see what I plan to mount this box to!  I did a larger radius on the front panel overlaps, for kicks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Against Curt's wishes, I media blasted the box pieces. Glass bead can get imbedded in the metal, which TIG sees as impurities, and has temper tantrums about. I'll have to spend extra time prepping to make up from my transgression. Next, I"ll spend a little time coercing these panels into proper fit and alignment.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's the drawing for the cover plate. JD, the CIF resident jewelry guy, just purchased a new laser (which he has in his home shop). He's having a _laser-warming party_ tomorrow, and invited us to bring files to cut. I forgot to go get some acrylic though, so it will depend on whether or not I can find a piece between now and then.

Two of these will be cut in acrylic, a few manual machine tricks performed, then plaster investment molds cast around them. The acrylic will be vaporized in the kiln, simultaneously curing the investment molds, then bronze castings made. My plan is to solder-fill the engraving, machine or sand it all flat, and clear coat... I'm thinking about casting or machining the logo separate, in some contrasting metal, and actually riveting it to the plate. Again, I'm having a little fun with what will likely be a temporary box; taking an artistic swipe at common electrical boxes and panels. Can you say, " O. C. D?"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The laser process today was totally, completely, insanely, awesome!  The final result met my lofty expectations...

I'm actually at the storage unit now mocking up the box with the plate on the bike, and I love, love, love it. JD (laser owner) is one of the few people I've met in Columbus that shares my passion for excess and perfection, and the results of the collaboration bear this. 

Pics and more details later tonight or tomorrow...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Backing up to last week: Friday, I tacked the box together and did a quick test fit on the bike. I needed to get a sense of how the engraving on the plate would look behind the frame rail, before finishing the design for the laser party Sunday. I was at the storage unit for quite a while, just staring at the bike - at my vision coming to life.  I went back and stared more Saturday, and worked on the design for the rear plate. 











Sunday, was laser time. The party was great. Good food, nice home, awesome basement "lab" (their business name is the Lab Partners), fun group of people, and the laser is completely badazz! JD shares my uncompromising work ethic and values, and spent a disproportionate amount of the party time setting up and cutting my parts, and seemed to enjoy the process. It engraved the full desired depth of cut, in one pass, with the precision one expects when something is _laser-cut_.











I just did a basic CAD drawing, leaving all of the final setup for JD. I thought it would be a few simple clicks, but underestimated how much detail I had in the file. For example, I wanted the Bat-T to be on a separate plate, that will be riveted to the main plate, and we found this while exploring the possibilities in the file, while the other guests tapped their toes. Then cut time ended up being almost an hour and a half. 











Together, the Bat-T _pops_ off the plate. The plate will, ideally, be a bronze casting, with pewter-filled engraving, and probably a pewter cast Bat-T logo, with bronze rivets. I don't want to go overboard with the contrasting metals - just enough to add definition. All of this may be adjusted as it is produced.











...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

...

Hopefully, you can see what I'm chasing. The bent and welded sheet metal, add a little dimension to the box, the plate pops off the fabricated box, and the Bat-T logo pops off the plate. The final bronze plate will be machined on the back to fit over the differing heights of the aluminum box, and probably recess into the opening just enough to seal it. I don't think this box is going to be a temporary solution... 











When you look down at it on the bike, you'll see details that invite you to take a closer look. Again, my goal is to capture the sophistication of an IC engine, but with electric-related content. Instead of an internal combustion engine and transmission, it features a battery pack and electric motor. That scruffy project board on the back is a pattern - can't wait to show you the back plate... 











Backing away, a look at the developing composite.











I love, love, love this view.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the beginning was the billet... Time to get the back plate of the box underway. The first step was to hack a piece out of the large plate, on CIF's vertical bandsaw. 2/3rds of the way through the blade jumped off and we had a heck of a time getting it back on and tracking (without jumping off again). They're in desperate need of new _tires_ on the pulleys.











We prevailed, and I managed to scratch out a rough idea of what I plan to do. I will probably machine this side manually, mainly just working out the profile, and hogging out a bunch of material in the center. It weighs 17lbs right now, and the goal is to get it as close to 5lbs as possible. This plate will also serve as a structural member of the frame, so the other side will be 2.5 or 3D machining, leaving structural ribs where needed. If you try adding my numbers, and they don't jive - I know, I was just trying to get get an idea of how it will play out, A little here and there on Sharpie lines can add up to a significant difference.  I will probably actually machine to the numbers on the DRO, and not scribed lines, so this stuff is more like a scratchpad...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I needed to do a test fit of the rear plate, before spending hours whittling it down. Here, I did an overlay to highlight the basic dimensions that I scratched out on it, previously. Most of the material around the perimeter of the box will be removed, leaving a rounded shoulder, and three mounting flanges. Fits perfectly.











Even though it will be slimmed down significantly, I love the effect all this metal is having, aesthetically. I'm going to be afraid to put Scrape on the scales though. I also started on a (cardboard) pattern for mounting the controller and electronics. I'm thinking in three stages: right now with the little Alltrax, an intermediate solution (likely an Open Revolt-based DIY controller), and a Zilla in the future. The Alltrax setup will fit easily, I plan to build the Open Revolt custom to suit, and eventually dare to partially deconstruct and reconfigure a Zilla to make it fit.











The pattern, with a few dimensions to allow me to pull this into CAD and begin my magic.











I did some initial chicken scratching to start sorting out my thoughts for the Alltrax. I think I am going to machine a ribbed base plate, that mounts a center mounting plate (shaped like the cardboard pattern) for the Alltrax, contactors, fuses, etc. As with previous versions of Scrape, I might leave all the components exposed on the plate. With the intermediate version, I will start developing a new, more exotic, finned metal enclosure. It must also fit over the deconstructed Zilla, so I have a lot of homework to do for that (why I am not attempting it now). I also don't want cost to be as much of an issue with it, so I need to have all the million and one other needs out of the way.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut an 8 x 11" piece of the 0.75" billet for a base for the power electronics plate, and hashed out a plan for machining it. It's ~7lbs now, and I hope to get it down to around half of that.

The green areas will be milled out, either completely, or leaving a thin wall - undecided on that, so far. The purple feet will be welded in the corner sockets (plunge cut with a 1" end mill). The red strip down the center is the pocket for the 0.1875" electronics mounting plate. The yellow sections will be machined to receive (weld-in) bolt bosses for the plate. Simple.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Before I start even manually hogging metal out, I have to be sure about where I am going with this so - to the CAD Workshop, I went!  I modeled the power electronics mount, which will give me the data I need for the battery box rear plate. I'm basically working in reverse, from what has to attach to the battery box, to determine what it needs to be. My goal is to use quick release fasteners as much as possible, to allow fast changes to suit the circumstances.










Don't pay so much attention to the specific type of quick release pins used here (JRP3 ), it's a generic design that should be able to accommodate whatever QR pin I happen to pop in it. I am pretty certain I am going to mill the pocket cuts all the way through the mounting plate, leaving a webbed frame, for maximum weight shredding; and aesthetic lightness.












Shown here with my little custom Alltrax, the modular design will allow me to swap a different plate onto the base, to mount a different controller and contactor setup; or completely swap the entire assembly. I still have to sort out the three mounting points and process for attaching the plate to the base, and model that, then I'll be ready to start making chips...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Don't pay so much attention to the specific type of quick release pins used here (JRP3 ),



Better than the lever type you modeled previously


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Better than the lever type you modeled previously





Time for an updated comprehensive view, and an admission to myself about final finishing. As I see all this raw metal coming together, I know there is no way I am going to subject it to dark anodizing and plating processes; just for appearance. I love bare metal. Love it, love it, love it; and I am _not_ going to cover it up.  So, here it is in all it's bare (digital) glory, with the new power electronics assembly in place, and lots of clean-up work. I have also finally admitted to myself that I need to do something about my seat button (which we affectionately dubbed the nut-buster, for obvious reasons.) I am going to use that (casting) elsewhere, and design something complementary, and flatter, for the seat's front mount. I also profiled the front of the seat to match the upper frame rail, as it is in real life now. Notice the rear seat stays are smaller, neater? That's about to happen in real life. Finally, I made some adjustments to digital Scrape to match real-world Scrape. I have much more room in the real world than I had in CAD, due to little adjustments I made as I worked out the frame. It's actually longer, giving much needed room in the _power compartment_, hence the larger battery box, etc. Digital now matches that, so I can plan more effectively.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, I had planned to go to the storage unit to notch the frame rail for motor clearance, so I could hash out the right side mount. After a meeting with (an absolutely gorgeous) client, and managing to break and repair my iPhone (again) while doing my laundry, I had to plot a new destination; as it was now (then) dark oustide. I decided to start on the new seat button, so after getting all those impossibly tiny screws back in and phone lit up again, I started carving on one of the wax plugs, while my laundry was in the dryer.

First a refresher on the history of my beloved button. *Top-left*, is the original plug; whittled from modeling board on the ShopBot, at CIF. This was kind of a pivotal part for the bike, because it was conceived and realized as I was starting to get more serious about Scrape's place in my plans. *Top-right*, is the aluminum-filled resin casting made by Gary, at CIF. A perfect duplicate. *Bottom-left*, is one of the wax castings made in the silicone mold (for lost-wax, investment, bronze casting) Ric made. It has some obvious defects. I was supposed to make a new mold, but have been distracted from it lately. Finally, *bottom-right*, is the other wax plug that I started carving yesterday.











The main point here is to remove it's ability to be a "nut-buster", which means chopping the height down. Secondly, I want it to be aesthetically cohesive to the other buttons. The five-point pattern is the key, and will also tie into various holes and dimples used for lightening on the bike, as it develops. This little part is actually a key component for the entire bike, as it sets an aesthetic _tone_, and also ties into my plans for collaborative relationships, down the road (more on that later.) Minus my warped and fluted counterbore, I decided to extend the dimples into the counterbore, to restore a little sophistication and detail to the design. Then, I sliced as much as I could off the bottom to further remove its nut-busting potential.











Finally, I bowed the entire piece, to fit as snugly as possible on the upper frame rail. The seat pan will also be hammered around the tube to match its shape. This lumpy, inconsistent, wax form is obviously not up to my demand for quality and precision. It's exploratory design work, in an easily manipulated medium. Now that I found what I was looking for, I will duplicate this with the resin casting Gary made, to serve as a new plug for the metal casting process. That little numb on the bottom, if implemented, will be longer and fit into a counterbore in the frame, and corresponding hole in the seat pan, to positively lock everything in place. Also shown here is a quick experiment for getting a better silicone mold. The process Ric taught me makes the silicone work like putty. Because it's not poured, and incredibly viscous, like the Smooth On products Gary uses it can leave air pockets, which become voids in the mold. By doing each of the dimples with a small amount of silicone, I should be able to force the air out, then fill the counterbore, then the upper surface, then (later) a separate lower mold half, with sprue and vent...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sure is quiet around here... You guys still with me? Bored to tears, and fell asleep?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How excited are we supposed to get over reworking the seat knob, which could have been shaved down in a mill in less time than it took you to write the post?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> How excited are we supposed to get over reworking the seat knob, which could have been shaved down in a mill in less time than it took you to write the post?


 It's a seat *button*, and surely you know I am not simply going to just shave it down, right?! 

Prepared to be bored then, because that's what I worked on and have plenty of pics coming. Curt texted me yesterday morning to tell me the Bridgeport was free, so I could have created a bucketful of aluminum chips, but I chose to work on my exciting seat button.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm fluffing up my pillow


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm just lurking while concentrating on paid design work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm just lurking while concentrating on paid design work.


Hey old pal! 



JRP3 said:


> I'm fluffing up my pillow


 Here's your nap time story...


So, even though the Bridgeport was available yesterday, the mental focus necessary to indulge in hours of semi-manual metal chip making wasn't. Instead, I was more fixated on fine-tuning the overall theme. Ironically, to feed that process, I turned my attention to one of the smallest, most _seemingly_ insignificant, parts on the bike - my beloved seat button.  In working on this little part, and focusing on tiny details, I am able to get a better sense of where I am going with the big picture; and sharpen my focus, in that regard. My super-high-tech process started by sitting a Sharpie on a popsicle stick, and rotating the button around to create a cut line.











Then, I used a cutoff wheel in the Dremel to remove the counterbore. No milling machine.











I used ball and conical cutting and grinding tools to rough in the basic shape. Shot here with it's older sibling to verify that the basic DNA is still intact.











In addition to saving the family jewels, this is what I am trying to get to. I am going to make a tiny little center that will be bonded into the button, that swings it even further towards the level of detail and complexity more common to jewelry. It will have five (larger than shown here) channels that extend down from the five dimples, into a well that surrounds a raised center section, with a machined countersink for a screw that matches the countersinking screws holding the leather pad. The point is to play with light, effectively _collecting_ it and funneling it into the center well, where it is overshadowed just a touch by the raised center mount. It's so tiny that only the most curious, detail obsessed, individuals are likely to even notice it, without being prompted; but it's a _Todd_ detail, that hints at what's to come, and what's to be found, in the rest of the bike...











Larger view.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> Sure is quiet around here... You guys still with me? Bored to tears, and fell asleep?


I suppose I lurk more than comment, but I read your thread (nearly) every day.

I'm just waiting now to see the realization of that fantastic Duracell copper-top battery box!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Baratong said:


> I suppose I lurk more than comment, but I read your thread (nearly) every day...


Thanks Baratong! I see all the views. Scrape's thread has exploded, in viewers, this year... I really do count and appreciate every one of them. 






Baratong said:


> ...I'm just waiting now to see the realization of that fantastic Duracell copper-top battery box!


If only I were that much fun (I'm really not.) I even tried to build another bike (Squat) that was supposed to be just goofy and fun. Within no time, it started creeping into more and more of a major project, and competing for resources with Scrape. Now it sits, in pieces in the storage unit, waiting for me to figure out what to do with it...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey Todd. Looking great. Holidaying in the sun away from interweb so just catching up. The button is a detail piece that sets the tone and finish of the bike! Whittle away sir!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey Todd. Looking great. Holidaying in the sun away from interweb so just catching up. The button is a detail piece that sets the tone and finish of the bike! Whittle away sir!


Thanks Tyler!  I wish I knew how to take holidays - was deleted from my programming somewhere along the way. 


Earlier, I measured the center bore of the chopped down button. It's ~0.500". The (8mm) socket head screw type I have been using has a 13mm diameter head. The socket screw I _thought_ I was going to use, an M8 (countersinking) flat head, has a 16mm (~0.630") head. The head of the screw is bigger than the available real estate to locate it in! 

My goal is for the screw to overshadow the well a bit, but not that much!  I wanted to create an undercut that would be challenging to force silicone into for an accurate mold, doubling challenging to pour and remove the wax plug from, and the stuff that separates the men from the boys, the women from the girlie-girls, in reproducing in metal - but _this_ would probably be beyond the capabilities of anyone I currently know; in equipment and willingness to be challenged.

My gears for Squat's hidden throttle pot still have yet to be produced for the same reason. I need an old world, super-skilled, watchmaker for this kind of stuff. I think I need to come up with a plan B for the center of this button...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The socket screw I _thought_ I was going to use, an M8 (countersinking) flat head, has a 16mm (~0.630") head. The head of the screw is bigger than the available real estate to locate it in!



Is there enough material to turn down the screw head to fit?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is there enough material to turn down the screw head to fit?


Yes, but I realized a bigger problem in considering that dilemma - I don't think anyone I know could cast the undercut I had (purposely) developed that bright idea around. Even the silicone mold would be super challenging because the wax plug (in the undercut area) would be so thin and easy to distort while removing the mold. In my head it all looked so much bigger, but when I started bringing it into scale... No freakin way! 

(extends hand to JRP3) Welcome to the obsessive-compulsive world of seat button design. So, glad you decided to become an active participant! 


So, back to the drawing board. Goal: find a way to play with light, without any undercuts in the molding and casting process; because the scale is too small. Using a low profile, standard, 0.250" socket head bolt, I just cut the channels leading in from the dimples down into the sides of the counterbore, so light can collect and spill into there, highlighting the bolt head. I might try to machine this little rascal. I designed it to be doable with a single 0.125" ball-end mill. I think the ShopBot can do this in modeling board, with a 0.005" stepover and feed rates like I used to cut aluminum (in 3D) with it (around 0.05" IPS). I think...










If this doesn't satisfy my obsession with light tricks, I can turn a small groove into the sides of the bolt head to produce an undercut type effect with the entire assembly.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wouldn't a little classical accompanied CAM video preview be better today than an ordinary 1000-word picture?  At my desired feed and plunge rates (0.050"), stepover (0.005"), and with a 0.125" ball-end mill, this little dime-sized bolt boss would take 3 HOURS to machine!?!?!  But, if I could arrange to capture that entire, miniature chip slinging, _Todd_ process in high-def video, and play it back for you in a few minutes...





A few 2.5D cuts around the perimeter, the shoulder, and the center hole, would remove the larger tool marks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice, very entertaining, two thumbs up. Could you not speed up the actual machine process by drilling out the center section first, slightly undersized, and let the mill shape it?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice, very entertaining, two thumbs up. Could you not speed up the actual machine process by drilling out the center section first, slightly undersized, and let the mill shape it?


Thanks! 

You're thinking is correct, to a degree. I accidentally captured the finishing pass without the roughing pass, which does pretty much what you suggest. It hogs out a bit of material around and inside the actual part. That takes about two minutes. . The finishing pass runs the same time no matter what I do beforehand, because it is machining the exact surfaces - one time shot. It takes that long because I am running the machine gentle enough to not destroy the super thin edges of the part, and not slam the tool into it as it transitions (which would leave more marks). I use the roughing pass to reduce the amount of work the tool has to do, for quality though, not speed.

For other people, on a budget, I sometimes run parts faster and leave the final surface quality to human hands and hand tools. For me, I make the machine do ballet and leave behind a nearly perfect surface; _e.g.,_ the original button...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Admission: I posted, and emphasized, the machine time as a psychological experiment; because I knew people would instantly tune into that point, almost to the exclusion of the important facts and details. I also posted this on Curt's FB feed, and prompted Eric to it, and on CIF's discussion board. No comments yet from CIF, but Curt's FB feed went as expected. 

People are naturally focused on _helping_ me reduce the time, even though I make it a point that results are always the most important factor with me. The time is perfectly acceptable, if it produces the desired results. People have seen the original button, and the level of quality achieved. People have witnessed Scrape opening doors of opportunity for me - because it's so extreme - and admitted that it actually works. Yet there is always the focus, desire, and effort to reduce what I plan to do next to something more _reasonable_!?

That to me is priceless. Scrape has given me a platform to engage with people like no other project I have done, even the mighty Inhaler.

In case the above read wrong: I respect everyone's opinion and freedom of expression. I'm just sharing one of most enjoyable aspects of this project, to me; that it draws those opinions and expressions into the open.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Yet there is always the focus, desire, and effort to reduce what I plan to do next to something more _reasonable_!?


Stay strong and keep on your path!
It is difficult to live in your artist mind while surrounded by (well meaning people) that are responding with their engineering mind.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Stay strong and keep on your path!...


Thanks Ken!  I haven't veered far from it over all these decades, so the chances of me actually changing course now... 





ken will said:


> ...It is difficult to live in your artist mind while surrounded by (well meaning people) that are responding with their engineering mind.


I definitely believe that _most_ are, indeed, well meaning. It's probably more troubling because I combine both disciplines, and purposely flip the equation; form leading function. Art designed for speed.

To them I say, "Wouldn't it also have been more efficient for the peacock to have simply used pheromones?" 





ken will said:


> ...your artist mind...


Major compliment - thank you!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been purposely all over the place, with Scrape's reassembly, working a little here then there. What I am doing is simulating a development team working on a concept vehicle, each specializing in a specific area, working in collaborative efforts that complement each other. It all has to come together as a cohesive "whole", not just a vaguely related sum of individual parts and systems. Yesterday, satisfied with how everything is developing, I returned to the motor. I cut a slightly undersized notch; enough to get the motor to clear, but not weaken the frame. After the mount has been machined I will open this enough to fit the top section, and immediately weld it in (on the fixture).












The motor moved exactly one inch to the left. I will turn a couple spacers, and we'll weld those to the mount. I also put a small notch on the CE end to clear the frame's rear hoop. Really nice fit though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A black tie affair; Scrape all dressed up for "the big dance" (land speed racing). Just out of curiousity, I wanted to see what Scrape would look like with a good ol' aero-bubble fairing to break the atmosphere, and a tail section to help put it back together. Obviously, this stuff would need some work to fit right and work properly, but it still gives a peek. One day, the motivation behind all these countless versions of Scrape will make as much sense in real life, as they do in my noggin. Promise.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bumping to a new page, for build pics of the seat mounted on the new frame in a bit. Editing them now...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Got a little distracted...

I took my good old time about mounting the seat because I wanted to work through some of the other details, like the battery box and motor drive, to be certain that this look is really what I want. Convinced, I drilled the hole, bolted the seat to the upper frame rail, and snipped the old seat stays a little.












I still plan to make new seat stays; something more _me_. I am also pretty sure I am going to form the front seat mount, and the button, around the tube.











I was also able to take a seat for the first time with the new frame. It's really radical. I will probably lower the back of the seat just a touch, as I have what feels like my full weight on my wrists. It's not going to be a comfortable bike though. The deeper into the bars I am the better control I have, especially when launching such a short, torquey, bike.











This profile shot reveals what I mean by _radical_. The bars and seat are around the same height. That was intentional.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had a scheduled meeting then an impromptu meeting with clients at CIF today, and while in the midst of the second one Terry, the casting guy, pops this little rascal on the table. That's the sprue, on the left, that I cut off the bottom. I left the silicone mold that Ric made with him last week, to experiment with casting pewter directly in silicone. It actually works well. The porosity you see is because there was still wax in the mold from Ric and I experimenting with casting the wax plugs for lost-wax bronze casting. Terry said this was the third pour in the mold and there was still wax in it. I'm going to make a clean mold of the revised button for him.












The gold color is oxidation. Underneath it is pure silvery pewter. I could, and might, actually sand away all the rough surface and end up with a nice button out of this piece. Any remaining low spots and voids, from where the mold wasn't right, could be easily filled with solder. The real issue though is weight - this little bugger is much heavier than I expected.  I have been playing with the modeling board plug and resin casting too long. I think I am going to have to put Scrape on a diet...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...I think I am going to have to put Scrape on a diet...


That little scruffy looking casting turns out to be a pivotal piece in Scrape's development. I'm in serious weight reduction mode now. I went to the storage unit today to test an idea I have for another button - full, warped-counterbore, version this time (pics and details tomorrow). While handling that little thing it really started to sink in how quickly all this stuff can add up. My racebike is on the path to relative morbid obesity!  Since then, I have been mentally scrutinizing all of the parts I have planned - I'm glad I caught this now! I think I owe Terry a beer...

One of the grossest offenders was going to be my engraved and solder-filled real bronze battery box plates; which are just cosmetic enhancements!  Close to them, vitally important, but in need of more strategic lightening, is the battery box rear plate. It's a structural element in the chassis, but I need to figure out where I can whittle more material from it. I will probably use cut acrylic or cast resin on those side plates, and possibly as fill in the rear plate, with Kevlar sheeting behind them for fire protection (thinking forward to the race-ready, more volatile, LiPo packs).

I did a decent job of whittling as much aluminum as possible (in design/CAD) from the motor drive mounting plate. I'm thinking about polycarbonate, carbon fiber, or even titanium, sheet for the plate that holds the controller and components. 

I was also set to order that quick and easy steel Sportster tank shell for the woofer soon, but am seriously considering cutting MDF mold halves and doing a carbon shell now. Out of pocket cost for resin and MDF is comparable, though I would have more ShopBot time on account (labor trade), and considerably more effort in it. The difference should be measurable in pounds though, because chopper builders typically favor thicker metal.

The frame is too heavy, but that was a necessary evil. This is a prototype frame. Later, as real-world testing, and supplementary CAD development and analysis, provide necessary data I intend to build a new, lighter, stronger, stiffer, more exotic, version of this frame. Then, someday, carbon wheels, brakes, etc. For now, I need to find the fat and fry it. 

Scrape was at 317lbs the last time I weighed it, and I was pretty confident that I was getting close to 300lbs. I hope I didn't go the other way!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So the obvious question becomes why have a subwoofer on a race bike that's striving for lightness? That heavy magnet in the speaker will only slow you down.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> So the obvious question becomes why have a subwoofer on a race bike that's striving for lightness?...


Good question. First point: I erroneously started calling it a subwoofer - it's not, it's a woofer. Full low-end spectrum, not just 20-150hz. And, think Bose style - small woofer that seems to magically pour out music everywhere, from nowhere.

It's for street and marketing use. When I used to ride Scrape around inside CIF, to my amazement, I loved how silent it was and how connected I felt to the environment around me (compared to purposely saturating everything with the cacophony of my ICE bikes). I imagined being out in the arts district here, or on a back road, being so connected to the scene - OR - enjoying jazz or classical music that seems to almost come from the environment. It's an opportunity I saw in the bike that I wanted to explore. I remember giving someone a ride in my old Accord once, that I had been experimenting with the sound system on. We pulled up to his house and were talking, with the music down really low. He thought his son was inside the house with the music blasting so loud that he could hear it from the street (nice neighborhood, where you _don't_ do that). I laughed and turned the volume up a bit, and said, "that's us." If you get it right, the music blends into the scene. So, imagine me at an event presenting Scrape to people, with musical accompaniment streaming in from the atmosphere, and then revealing that it's coming from the bike. The point I am trying to emphasize is being _connected_. I've always maintained that I am not a true "greenie", but the thing I do agree with is being responsible, and living more sustainably. Everything on this planet works as _a part of_ the system, but us. My little entertainment system is a subtle tool, to help me make that point. 





JRP3 said:


> ...That heavy magnet in the speaker will only slow you down.


To your point, about racing: You are correct, but I can simply remove it, and just have the shell, for racing or any time I want. That's why I am focused on making the shell as light as possible. Remove the base plate, and amplifier, and the bike is in race trim in a few minutes. The source is my iPhone. All the other parts are more permanent features of the bike. I don't want it to take hours to get into race trim, but don't mind a couple quick changes.

Edit: Speaker type and weights...


 The actual subwoofer I looked at initially, from JL Audio, was 6.1lbs, but it is a true subwoofer 20-150hz.
The woofers are typically from 30-50hz, up to maybe 5000hz, and 3-4lbs.
A subwoofer wouldn't work because I'd have to have a bunch of other speakers to fill the sound - I want 3 total. Plus, it would be annoying to have a sub thumping right under your chest.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Excellent explanation


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Excellent explanation


Thank you!  Maybe, just maybe, my little concept and supporting pitch is starting to gel... It's my personal message, what I stand and live for, and I think Scrape might just be able to help me finally communicate it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...I went to the storage unit today to test an idea I have for another button - full, warped-counterbore, version this time (pics and details tomorrow)...





toddshotrods said:


> ...My little entertainment system is a subtle tool, to help me make that point. ...
> 
> ...The source is my iPhone...


While studying that little cast pewter button, at home Friday night, I was thinking about where else on the bike I might incorporate these buttons. The recess that the center nut of the upper triple clamp resides in came to mind, and I wondered how well it would fit; thinking that one would look awesome there. It fits almost perfectly!  I'll kick this around in my noggin for while, and eventually start hashing my idea out in CAD, then realize it. It would be the mount for the iPhone. A cradle would lock onto the phone, and pop into the button. A simple push of a button, on the cradle, would allow me to remove it from the bike. So if i'm just popping in a store, using the restroom, or something quick, I can leave the phone in the cradle.











This is a horrible pic (too much contrast, too much flash, and too little ambient light for my little pocket camera to manage), but it shows the two buttons together.











I grabbed a quick (polymer clay) impression of the pocket, for a visual design aid as I hash this out.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...seriously considering cutting MDF mold halves and doing a carbon shell now...


Nope. I was just in CAD for thirty minutes - long enough to realize the slippery slope I was standing at the crest of. I suddenly remember what led me to that steel Sporty tank shell in the first place, and back to it again after modeling the H1 tank. It's not just the CAD time, it's the whole _Todd_ process it ushers in. 

I am going to order the steel Sporty tank shell as planned, take the temporary hit on weight (probably a couple pounds), and then create a carbon shell later, using the steel shell as a mold. I'll just swap "tanks" when racing...

I'm crazy, but I ain't stoopid!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> It's not just the CAD time, it's the whole _Todd_ process it ushers in.
> ...
> I'm crazy, but I ain't stoopid!


Like the man in the song says, "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to Ruuuuunnnnn...!" 

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Like the man in the song says, "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to Ruuuuunnnnn...!"
> 
> Bill






A scheduled session with my prettiest client today went much faster than anticipated, so I found myself at CIF with an entire day in front of me, and no idea what I was going to do with it. Ken came in and told me his wife is out of town this coming weekend and next week, meaning he has lots of time to play (CNC) - so next week, we'll be making chips.  That still left today though...

For whatever reason, the seat button bolt boss popped into my head, my laptop was still in front of me from working with my client, and away I went. The first thing was to double the feedrate, run the simulation and make sure there wasn't any difference in the surface quality - nope. Next, I asked Gary if he had an 0.125" ball-nosed end mill. He had an 0.0625" (end) radius, tapered, (up to) 0.250" shank end mill. I ran the machine simulation again with that end mill to make sure the taper wouldn't do any damage to the surfaces - nope. That was all I needed to know. I booked the ShopBot, and screwed a piece of modeling board down to the table. I haven't cut anything on my old friend since April; was nice to get reacquainted...













Two hours later, I had a perfectly carved bolt boss. The shoulder and extra length allow it to seat in the button, and will locate the front of the seat securely in a turned socket that gets welded into the upper frame rail. This design, isolates the bolt's function to just clamping the parts together. That was a purposed decision that let me use a smaller 0.250", low-profile, socket head bolt, that makes this whole ridiculous affair possible.












Here's the assembly. I will use epoxy to bond these together, and fill the gap, then blend it all together with the Dremel and hand sanding.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to hurry up and bond these two pieces together, because that little boss was so fragile, and I am so not the careful and cautious type...  On its own, it was only a matter of time before I knocked a chunk out of one of those super thin upper surfaces. I used two-part epoxy with (talc) filler for the first step, which allowed me to create a radius in the bottom corner. There will be a matching fillet in the socket; all to eliminate a potential stress riser. On top, I drizzled epoxy in the gap, avoiding getting any on the freshly carved boss. The dark areas are just from the epoxy soaking into the modeling board, from behind. That's almost imperceptible without the flash and digital enhancement, I have a set of diamond-tipped tools for the Dremel, but I'm going to need an electron microscope to see what I'm doing with the blending and detail work in there (note the penny for scale)!


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

toddshotrods said:


> ...but I'm going to need an electron microscope to see what I'm doing ...


For the work light that I use with my tabletop setup, I have a fluorescent magnifying light. I use the magnifier A Lot. Even with my bifocals.
By the way, that's looking pretty good.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> For the work light that I use with my tabletop setup, I have a fluorescent magnifying light. I use the magnifier A Lot. Even with my bifocals.
> By the way, that's looking pretty good.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill. 

I have a small magnifier that clamps on the edge of the bench or table, and uses a standard bulb. I normally use a CFL in it for less heat, but I don't really like it. It's kind of annoying to get positioned properly, and the springs suck at keeping it there. I suppose I should invest in a decent one someday. 

Sounds silly but I actually prefer just doubling up on my 1.50 reading glasses, because I can see normal or _super_ magnified with a simple head movement. Not as powerful as a real magnifier, but it has worked for me. So, sort of like improvised, micro vision, bifocals!  The biggest problem is I forget to take the second pair off sometimes and can't figure out why people keep giving me funny looks.  I think I'll hit the dollar store and get a few different power readers and experiment with this piece - thanks for the inspiration! . Maybe, I'll even buy a pair of magnifying goggles... 

What do you work on, under your magnifier?


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Part of my "problem" is that I'm near-sighted as well as presbyopic (old-eyes). I can see quite well out to about 9 inches and then things get fuzzy. But, with my glasses on, stuff between about 9 and 16 inches is to small to see clearly. I have a pair of computer bifocals that help, but I still actually prefer to look at close up stuff with out any glasses at all.



toddshotrods said:


> Maybe, I'll even buy a pair of magnifying goggles...
> 
> What do you work on, under your magnifier?


Actually, that sounds like a good idea.

I work on pretty much whatever I feel like. I bought a small saw set from Harbor Freight last week and had to modify the arbor because the run-out was horrendous. A while ago I made the bearing blocks and axles to drive a pair of R/C size ducted fans (2 1/2 inch diameter) with a single high RPM fuel motor. I'm currently working on a piece for work that we'll use to separate an I/O daughter board from the main board it connects to. 

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Part of my "problem" is that I'm near-sighted as well as presbyopic (old-eyes). I can see quite well out to about 9 inches and then things get fuzzy. But, with my glasses on, stuff between about 9 and 16 inches is to small to see clearly. I have a pair of computer bifocals that help, but I still actually prefer to look at close up stuff with out any glasses at all...


I have always been more far-sighted. My ex-wife used to to shove things a few inches from my face (where _she_ could see them best), for me to examine and comment on, sending me cross-eyed. I had perfect vision back then from 12" out, to seemingly miles way, then I woke up without it one day, and have been wearing my readers ever since...




My ultimate solution is my CAD workshop, where I can zoom in out effortlessly; and work in scales so small that I have trouble finding machines and people to help me replicate my madness.  Not quite so intense, yesterday and today I have been working on nailing down the design for the battery box rear plate, with hopes of cutting it next week. The first thing was to simply reverse-engineer my Sharpie plotted ideas on the 6061 plate to CAD, and then start figuring out where all the various mounting holes need to be. Holes to mount the plate (and battery box) to the frame; holes for mounting the motor drive to the battery box; holes for mounting the aluminum sheet box to the plate; holes, holes, holes, and more counterbored holes... Imagine them all filled with stainless button head and socket head screws.  I will save the major metal removal plans, on the back side, between the counterbores, for after I get it mounted, so I can plot exact lines between the frame rails, to triangulate them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little more work on the battery box plate. I added a little more of a sculptured look to the sides, by changing the radius of the transitions, added the upper frame mounts, and did a little preliminary lightening on the back. Over time, I will look for where I can remove more material, and weight, from the back but this basic shape should stick. I think I am going to add small fins or ribs in the lower "tombstone" pocket.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Once again, my meeting with my pretty client ended much sooner than I expected (hoped...), so I had to resort to my drug of choice (CAD) to get over the pain. If she keeps leaving me like this I am going to be end up in rehab... Hours later...

I had to rework the eight counterbored holes that mount the box to the rear plate. Something I did caused Pro/E to have a tantrum and demand that I eliminate four of them. Then, fully under the influence, I sorted out the other four box mounts, modeled the fins, tweaked the motor drive a bit, and stuck it all together.












To secure the box to the plate on the bottom and top, I will have little machined tabs that are hard riveted to the box (for aesthetics), and slip into these little sockets, then get secured with more stainless screws in counterbored holes. Those will be fun to do. I will probably have to fixture the plate to the side of the mill table, and swing the head over to the side.












More views of the assembly...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Baby got bolts!  I'm not just goofing off here - really, seriously, guys!  I will have an unimaginable amount of time in this whole setup, from CAD, to machining, to fabrication. CAD allows me to verify the design and material choices, see and imagine how it will play out in real life; before screwing something up in real metal. I want working on Scrape to be _almost_ as enjoyable as riding and racing it. That means no typical mass-production design and engineering idiosyncrasies, like bolts you can't turn with a normal wrench; and it means things need to snap together with uncanny precision, and feel solid and super high quality.












An example is I may make the center bolts in the top and side frame mounting locations precisely machined pins, that easily pop into their corresponding sockets on the frame, then have a very light interference fit for the last 0.125". That would make the box very easy to locate, when installing it, but retain the frame reinforcing function of those points. If I decide to do that, I would also drill and tap the center of the pins, so that a bolt could be threaded in and tightened to push the pin out of the frame socket, making it just as precise and high quality of an operation to remove the box. 












Also shown here are the hidden top and bottom box mount bolts. Next, I need to model the box more accurately, to get a grasp on how the whole thing will look.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd. Looking great! One thing bothers me, the mounting plate for the controller that projects perpendicularly has no lateral bracing to support it so any jolt in a corner or hole in the road is going to jar that plate side to side, and may allow buzzing or humming from the drive system also. Any plans on that front yet? Does it have another mounting point on the back edge to the frame or something that I can't see?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd. Looking great!...


Thanks Tyler!  How's everything going?





tylerwatts said:


> ...One thing bothers me, the mounting plate for the controller that projects perpendicularly has no lateral bracing to support it so any jolt in a corner or hole in the road is going to jar that plate side to side, and may allow buzzing or humming from the drive system also...


As always, you have a keen eye for engineering details. 

You are correct, it is a concern. The first step I took in addressing it was to make the plate thicker than necessary, so it would have some inherent stiffness. Additionally, I will probably weld a "wing" onto the top of that plate, creating a "T"-shaped plate that flares out as it approaches the mounting base, and butts against it to prevent lateral movement.

The Alltrax setup that mounts to that plate is really lightweight, and is definitely temporary. Eventually it will be replaced with a finned enclosure that ultimately houses a Zilla, and possibly a custom Open Revolt in the interim. So, I don't want to put too much time and effort into the Alltrax setup (relative statement, it's me talking). I just need it right now to get the bike running again.







tylerwatts said:


> ...Any plans on that front yet? Does it have another mounting point on the back edge to the frame or something that I can't see?


Just ahead of the box will be another triangulation point for the three frame rails. I want to get the bike assembled to figure out whether that will be tubular steel, machined from some kind of billet, bolted, welded, etc. Whatever the case, it will also have mounting points for the front of the box.

There is also still going to be a chin spoiler on the front-bottom corner of the battery box. It will almost certainly be mostly carbon now, for contrast.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have avoided creating 3D models of the battery box's side plates since I first created the 2D versions. After they came out so awesome on JD's new laser, I really had little motivation to do the 3D model, because I had the casting plugs, in hand. I finally had to face the fact that I need the digital versions, to verify my intentions for casting materials, and to get a comprehensive view of the battery box; so I dove in. I'm considering bronze metal powder-filled resin castings, with some lighter metal powder-filled engraving. Polished and clear-coated, it will look like my original idea, without the weight penalty. For fireproofing, I have settled on titanium sheet metal backing plates, with threaded studs welded to them, that install from the inside, with the studs sticking through the aluminum box, and SS acorn nuts to secure the plates. That was a mouthful! 











Little things I find in CAD, that direct subsequent design work, and correct design flaws: The bolts and bosses I had planned for the box side mounts are a bit too long, and one interferes with a side plate mounting bolt. That's all critically important to find because I have to machine those bosses, and need to know that what I spend hours modeling and machining will work properly. Also, on the aesthetic side, I planned to cast the Bat-T logo plates in aluminum or pewter (powder-filled resin) and it's obvious here that a lot of the detail would be lost. I don't want a bunch of layers of contrasting metals, that begin to look gimmicky, so I will probably do something like a darker metal leaf coating over the entire plate, sand the paint off the faces, polish the "metal" surfaces, and maybe a little media blasting and soft wire brushing to get a subtle but detailed end result.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to get a look at all this obsessive box design in the big picture. So far, I like what I'm seeing. The aluminum textures, on the box and motor drive plate especially, are pretty extreme but get the point across. Eventually, I might fine tune some of this digital stuff, but for now I just need to see if I'm on the right track. Next, I need to model more of the individual pieces that I need to build the box. I still haven't heard anything from Ken, so I'm starting to think there won't be any serious chip slinging this week.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I held myself back on these little bolt bosses. The temptation was there to go off the deep end in CAD and full 3D machining, since they're small, easy to machine, parts. Ultimately, I decided to design in a couple key features, and concentrate on making them machinable by a variety of different techniques - I could actually even make these with a drill press, a hole saw, a belt sander, and drill bit.  The point is to highlight the function of the boss. The scallop lightens the part but, more importantly, draws attention to the bolt that's threaded into it. Light tricks, again. The hole is threaded all the way, and the scallop cuts right through them, leaving a portion of exposed threaded fastener, like a cutaway drawing. 












And, on the box. The TIG beads will also be a design feature, adding a little detail, in the midst of the stacked metal layers, and obvious clamping bosses. I also easily solved the intereference problem but just eliminating one of the bolts - three per side, combined with the four hidden fasteners is plenty.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One more for the day. While doing research for my pretty client, I saw a simple solution for my Bat-T logo plate. By using two different cold metal casting mixes, it should be easy to add a little distinction. The raised portions would be poured first in aluminum powder filled resin, then the bottom of the plate poured with nickel/silver powder filled resin; which is supposed to be similar to pewter in appearance. I think that if we catch it at just the right time the two should fuse together a bit where they meet. That's a magnifying glass type detail, that most would never see, but a faint blended transition in the corners would make me happy.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice Todd! I noticed yesterday the similarity in motor aesthetics between your and the Zero's motors, was a good nod. Just wanted to mention it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very nice Todd! I noticed yesterday the similarity in motor aesthetics between your and the Zero's motors, was a good nod. Just wanted to mention it.


Thanks Tyler!  I had to Google that - yeah, very similar... I've put my finned case plans on the back burner for a bit though. It's a purely aesthetic add-on, that is also on the weight savings radar, so on hold for now...



Funny you should mention the motor today though, because that's what I woke up thinking about. Making power in DC is mostly a matter of getting the heat out as you crank up the amps. I remembered that I have an absolutely absurd amount of time designing my own TPD forced-air blower. It was designed for the Inhaler, based on a backpack style leaf blower, and more than a bit large for Scrape, as it was. The magic of CAD though is I could instantly scale it to the application - about 50% of the original size, or roughly 8" in diameter now. I still have the original leaf blower fan wheel, which can be scanned and scaled to match, then cast. The real beauty is the complexity of producing it is reduced almost exponentially, and many of the ideas and developments I've made over the last three or four years lend themselves directly to this idea now.  I can cut really beautiful inner and outer mold plugs for each half from modeling board, pull super high quality silicone molds from those, and then cast real metal or metal filled resin shells.










Functional considerations also improve so much at this scale. I can use a, BLDC, RC motor at this scale, and tuck it very neatly into the drive side of the housing; with noisy, straight-cut, gears to reduce their crazy RPM to 10-15K, and have good torque to move lots of air. That opens the doors for all the crazy tricks I had in mind for this thing. With an intermediate controller, it can accelerate with the traction motor, giving a sensation of power and speed; I can actually even "rev" it like an ICE bike, with regen to pull it back down; and it can remain on to keep cooling after performance feats, like a big jet engine slowly spooling down. By being connected directly to the motor, with aluminum tubing and shroud, a metal housing, noisy gear drive, and an instrument-like intake bell, I can play with developing a distinctive performance sound. Harley, Energica, and now Saleen with a tuned Model S, have been trying to develop a performance sound with straight-cut gears in the mechanical drive system. I can combine that with compressed air, tuned thin-metal enclosures, and the ability to "rev", to create a really unique experience - AND - I can turn mine completely off and go EV silent!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was pursuing a bright idea with the rear plate of the battery box being a bit larger than the actual box, but the more I worked through what it was going to take to realize it, the more I realized I would rather spend that energy elsewhere. I've begun the process of trimming most of the plate down to the same external dimensions of the box. In the first version the box fit in a recess in the plate, preserving space inside it. In this one the box slips over a recessed flange around the perimeter of the plate, meaning it loses 0.125" internally, but I have more than enough room. I have to rework the side flanges and points for the three box side mounts, and figure out what I want to do in the smaller "tombstone" area, but it's coming along pretty quickly.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Is that side plate on the battery box just a dress plate, or is it a battery wiring access hatch?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

With the fan, maybe it would be better to get an appropriately sized cent fan and swap out the motor? I think an inducer fan would be about perfect...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/161181697552?lpid=82


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Is that side plate on the battery box just a dress plate, or is it a battery wiring access hatch?


It's an access panel, admittedly born out of happenstance. As I was playing with reconfiguring the original box, I saw the opportunity to do this instead of solid sides. Considering that I plan to use the most volatile LiPo chemistries, I like the idea of having easily removable panels to directly check temps, puffiness, etc.

On that note, I also incorrectly stated, in a previous post about this, that I would be using titanium sheet fire panels behind the resin cast plates, that bolted from inside the box. The studs will be aluminum, welded to the box, and the fireproofing attached to the back of the resin plates, so access can be gained to the contents. I forgot to correct that, in print (made the change in my noggin already).







samwichse said:


> With the fan, maybe it would be better to get an appropriately sized cent fan and swap out the motor? I think an inducer fan would be about perfect...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/161181697552?lpid=82


My fan was actually selected based on its flow characteristics. Way back in the day, Tesseract (I believe) figured out reasonable flow characteristics for the 11" GE motor I was using then. The leaf blower, which is a centrifugal fan, matched those numbers almost exactly, and had a nice metal fan wheel. I reverse engineered the internal surfaces, and designed my own external housing shape to resemble antique automotive superchargers popular on old Flathead Ford engined hotrods. So what you see there is actually a serious piece of design and engineering work, from the original 191mph leaf blower, to Tesseract's electric motor cooling need estimates, to my CAD work to combine the two, with a little artistic license. Scaled down, I figure it will still supply more than enough air for my little motor - plus I have some supplementary tricks up my sleeve. 

By the way, I also already have a little blower housing like that, and was going to do just what you suggested. There are picks of it waayyyy back in the gallery (on my site) somewhere, and even a couple with it mocked up under the motor,recently, as I started putting Scrape back together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Note: Scrape's thread is now over 1000 posts, and barreling towards 200,000 views (in roughly half the time it took the Inhaler to get in the same league)!  Thanks for all the support DIYEV'ers! 



When I arrived here, a freshly recovering ICE-aholic, it took quite a while, and a lot of patience on the part of the crew here, for me to stop thinking in ICE terms, and get my head wrapped around electric. It's amazing how intertwined modern transportation has become with the internal combustion of dead dinosaurs, and how much our perception of personal transportation relies on that dirty, promiscuous, relationship. I even see that struggle playing out with big and small manufacturers and organizations, trying to make electric power fit the (mental) confines of existing transportation theory, design, engineering, and execution. It took me quite a while to get off the transmission bandwagon, and I am blown away by manufacturers like Brammo, and major racing organizations like FIA, basing their "cutting edge" developments on conventional gear changing - which is a crutch to get and keep an ICE in its torque band. It's amazing how hard it is to grasp and run with the simple concept that a properly designed electric propulsion system is always in it's torque band, without need of constantly hunting down the right gear ratio to make it so. Cutting edge ICE technology is now in 8-10 speed transmissions!  I remember when it seemed crazy to hear truckers talking about sifting through more than 4-5 speeds, now Corvettes and Porsches are bragging about it. Thankfully, we have heroes like Tesla, Rimac, BMW, and M-B, blazing the trails, showing just what electric propulsion can be and do, when you leave the ICE philosophies in the ground, wipe the slate clean, and start dreaming anew...

The latest in this path, for me, is with aesthetic design. I was so focused on the electric motor, aesthetically, for years. Trying to make it look as sexy and powerful as the ICE it was replacing. I remember watching people doing conversions and (logically) burying the motor under massive boxes full of aesthetically dull battery cells and, even worse, inside transmission tunnels and chassis sheet metal - even Tesla's little work of art of a motor is completely buried in the car. Then, it finally hit me ICE vs BEV - the battery *IS* the key. It's the real powerplant, it is the source, it is _the_ thing everything relies upon!  We are used to looking at IC engines, and a part of the aesthetic beauty we see in them is psychological. We know that the lumpy, bumpy, mass of metal is what makes the magic happen, and we subconsciously glamorize it. Our brains are conditioned to see power and beauty in them. Are the bulges of the cylinders really that beautiful and powerful looking, or do we merely see them that way because we know what happens inside them? Some really are artfully rendered and arguably outright beautiful, but many are actually downright ugly. GM's new smallblock engines are technological marvels, well-respected, and also generally regarded as some of the ugliest engines ever produced (by hotrodders), but lately I have noticed the sex appeal increasing, as builders figure out the right shades of lipstick and blush to showcase their ability to make, literally, tens of hundreds of horsepower, effortlessly.


That is what all this fuss is about with Scrape's battery box. I realized that the battery box is the source, the real sexy, and I have been on a mission to find its inherent beauty, get it all dolled-up, and let it openly strut its stuff. I have countless hours invested in this, and a long way to go, but I am beginning to see what I'm looking for. Here's latest version of the rear plate, the cornerstone of my design, with the box mounts a little more sorted out, and with more detail in the mounting ears. I also swapped in the new side plates, with the enhanced Bat-T logos, and better bronze texture.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You are right, the battery is the key, the real root of the power of an EV.


Sadly, it isn't sexy for me beyond appreciating its chemistry. For me it will always be the visible whizzy bit of motor seen through an ventilation grill, with the occasional bit of arcing thrown in for good measure.

Even a sealed motor attached to an enclosed transmission draws me in with the knowledge of spinny whizzy parts inside pushed to the limits of metallurgy as shafts turn gear against gear to produce visible motion as the EV moves off the line. 
The sounds of motor hum and gear whine, the (hopefully) slight vibration through the casing, trumps the silence of speeding electrons any day.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You are right, the battery is the key, the real root of the power of an EV.
> 
> 
> Sadly, it isn't sexy for me beyond appreciating its chemistry. For me it will always be the visible whizzy bit of motor seen through an ventilation grill, with the occasional bit of arcing thrown in for good measure.
> ...


I was thinking about you as I was writing all that because I remember us sharing our sentiments on this before, and both of us always trying our best to display, and enhance, the motors. 

I haven't lost my love for the motor, just gained appreciation for the battery; along with an obsession with making _it_ seem sexy - we'll see if I can convert you! 

I have a secret project up my sleeve - _*IF*_ - I can keep it developing as a complement to Scrape, that will reaffirm my love of the e-motor - exactly how you just portrayed it - _in spades_!!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You are right, the battery is the key, the real root of the power of an EV.


Sort of, but no. That's like saying the gas tank is key for an ICE. For _power _it's not that hard to put together a high C rate pack that has the potential to melt the motor and controller/inverter. It's still up to the motor and controller/inverter to control, focus, and survive that power, along with getting it to the wheels.



> Sadly, it isn't sexy for me beyond appreciating its chemistry.


Correct. The battery is a necessary evil that we always wish was smaller, lighter, cheaper, and frankly didn't exist at all. Who wouldn't replace it in a split second for a super duper mega capacitor that weighed 10 lbs, fit in a shoebox, never suffered voltage sag or C rate limits, and never wore out? It's still the motor/inverter that makes the magic happen, and probably always will be, no matter what the "power container" may be.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sort of, but no. That's like saying the gas tank is key for an ICE. For _power _it's not that hard to put together a high C rate pack that has the potential to melt the motor and controller/inverter. It's still up to the motor and controller/inverter to control, focus, and survive that power, along with getting it to the wheels.
> 
> Correct. The battery is a necessary evil that we always wish was smaller, lighter, cheaper, and frankly didn't exist at all. Who wouldn't replace it in a split second for a super duper mega capacitor that weighed 10 lbs, fit in a shoebox, never suffered voltage sag or C rate limits, and never wore out? It's still the motor/inverter that makes the magic happen, and probably always will be, no matter what the "power container" may be.


I used to agree with all that, but now I don't. As I sunk myself deeper and deeper into electric propulsion I stopped trying to make apples to apples comparisons between ICE and electric components and systems, and just started focusing on what's most important.

It's 100% the batteries, IMO.

I'll compare two high end products in the two realms: Ferrari and Tesla. The thing that makes a Ferrari a Ferrari is the engine. It's the heart and soul of the car, and everything else is there to allow the engine to do its thing. Enzo Ferrari once made a statement to the effect that he builds cars to sell his engines in. On the other side of the coin, the thing that makes a Tesla a Tesla is that awesome battery pack. Just like the Ferrari engine, it's an engineering marvel, and the key ingredient that makes the Model S such a superb vehicle. Elon essentially developed a world class battery pack on wheels, and he's doubling down on that bet with the Giga Factory. When you experience a Ferrari you experience its engine; everything else there is tuned and developed to enable that experience. When you experience a Tesla, you experience its battery pack; everything else there is tuned and developed to enable that experience. Caveat: I've never been in either of the two, running... I read a lot, and have quite the imagination. Qualifier: I make money by being able to translate words into tangible expressions. Sometimes, I get what people are after more by their words than how they attempted to portray them...

Looking at it another way, where is the power? On an ICE vehicle, I can put anything from french fry grease to jet fuel in the tank but if the engine can't make use of it, I might as well stick with the cheapest thing it will burn efficiently. When people talk about how much horsepower an ICE vehicle has they are talking about how much power the engine can make from its ideal fuel. You simply can't get anymore than it can deliver. It converts stored energy to a form that can be put to work (cringing at some physics nut jumping on that ). On other side of the coin again, the power in an EV is in the battery pack. We can talk all we want about what motor is best/most powerful, but if the power isn't in the pack it's not happening at all. Those discussions are usually more about how much energy a motor can handle than what it can produce. How many volts and amps can I push through it, before it melts down, not how many can it produce? They came from the battery pack, ready to be used. The motor and controller do make a final determination of how much of the available energy you can actually convert into forward motion, but the battery pack has already delivered it. Expose yourself to either the explosion that happens in the engine, or the electricity that is flowing out of the battery pack, and you will not doubt that either, at that point, have already released the energy.

I'm not saying the motor isn't a critical part of the equation. I just think the batteries are _the_ key element in a BEV, just like the ICE is to fuel-burning vehicles. The work I read about going on in the labs now reminds me so much of the type of development that made IC engines what they are today. Just like you want to reduce that battery pack to a shoebox-sized pack of power, they have been doing for the last 100 years with the IC engines. Look at some of the mammoth contraptions that powered 20's and 30's luxury and racing vehicles - those long hoods were there for a reason, and the cars were absolutely massive. Over time, technology shrunk that to what we think is a reasonable size now. That same effort is being poured, by the bucketful, into electric propulsion now; and most of the work is on extracting more energy and power from a given volume of batteries.


In my specific case. I finally realized that I can actually put a half dozen different motors in Scrape and tune the bike to achieve relatively the same type of performance from any of them (current GE, Impulse 9, EVO, YASA, Remy, etc), but what ultimately determines that performance is what I put in that box.

So, aesthetically, I am continuing my mission to openly display how and why it works...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sort of, but no. That's like saying the gas tank is key for an ICE. For _power _it's not that hard to put together a high C rate pack that has the potential to melt the motor and controller/inverter. It's still up to the motor and controller/inverter to control, focus, and survive that power, along with getting it to the wheels.


Yes (too), I see what you mean.

But from a personal perspective It is also the bit that I have to rely wholly on a manufacturer to provide in a finished form that I have no ability to improve or work on. So in some ways, again form my perspective, the battery is a magic god like box of amazing capacity.

At some point motors will probably become hidden in hubs with no visible moving parts and no exposed spinning shafts. It will then, visually, be nothing to get exited about.
I'd personally prefer batteries to be hidden away in the frame or body of the vehicle and the motor controller package to take the limelight. But that, rightly or wrongly, is me.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Jerry says, "My roads are full of pot holes, so the suspension is #1."
Dave says, "I drive mostly at night so the head light is #1."
Mary says, "People tailgate me so the brake light is #1."
Frank says, "At the bottom of a long steep hill is a school crossing so brakes are #1."
Alice says, " I drive in the rain so tires are #1."


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> One the other side of the coin, the thing that makes a Tesla a Tesla is that awesome battery pack.



Yes, but only one aspect, range. It's a relatively low C rate pack, and only produces good power because of it's size. For simple performance a smaller, lighter, higher C rate pack would outperform the existing pack, if the motor and inverter could handle it. For me the real engineering marvel is the power Tesla gets from that small motor with integrated inverter.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Jerry says, "My roads are full of pot holes, so the suspension is #1."
> Dave says, "I drive mostly at night so the head light is #1."
> Mary says, "People tailgate me so the brake light is #1."
> Frank says, "At the bottom of a long steep hill is a school crossing so brakes are #1."
> Alice says, " I drive in the rain so tires are #1."




I think these discussions are fascinating and so revealing, but I also spend a great deal of my life drawing reaction out of people, so I can observe and learn. 


And, Jerry, Dave, Mary, Frank, and Alice, only came to those conclusions because "horsepower" first put them in the situation to discover them. Without it, sitting motionless in the drive, suspension, headlights, brake lights, brakes, and tires, would tend to lose some of their value. 







Woodsmith said:


> ...At some point motors will probably become hidden in hubs with no visible moving parts and no exposed spinning shafts. It will then, visually, be nothing to get exited about...





JRP3 said:


> ...For me the real engineering marvel is the power Tesla gets from that small motor with integrated inverter.


Tesla already buries its motor in the midst of the chassis. Unless you go to a Tesla store, or buy a Model S and a four post lift, you'll never see it. They also tend to downplay it. You hear an occasional blurb about the power, but for the most part they talk about the battery and all it enables you to do. When you sit in it and power it up (which I _have_ done), it's ALL about what that incredible battery is making possible. It's a giant battery, with various interfaces, and even a integrated conversion unit (motor, inverter, and drivetrain) that allows it to physically move through time-space. 







JRP3 said:


> Yes, but only one aspect, range. It's a relatively low C rate pack, and only produces good power because of it's size. For simple performance a smaller, lighter, higher C rate pack would outperform the existing pack, *if the motor and inverter could handle it*...


Again, it might not seem like it, but I am a motor junkie. Like Woody, I love the mechanical side, and I love to proudly display it.

My point is where does the actual - usable - power come from? In an ICE it's converted and made available by the engine. In a BEV it's converted and made available by the pack. The motor and controller turn that energy into forward motion - if they can handle what's being dished out. So, I ask what dished it out? What was the source? 


And, again, this is admittedly just my (current) perspective. I am not trying to convince anyone. I'm stating that it's what is driving my project right now. I have subscribed to the Musky One's doctrine. I don't think the other view is wrong - I get it. I still place tremendous value on my motor, dynamically and aesthetically. It just has company...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Tesla already buries its motor in the midst of the chassis. Unless you go to a Tesla store, or buy a Model S and a four post lift, you'll never see it.


You'll never see the battery either, since it's buried in the bottom of the vehicle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You'll never see the battery either, since it's buried in the bottom of the vehicle.


That wasn't a pro-battery argument. I hate the fact that the motor is buried and not given much attention. It's actually a little work of art, that most people will never encounter. On the battery, most manufacturers hide all the stuff we love most now. Modern IC engines are buried under plastic covers and miles of wiring and plumbing. Open the hood of the average car and you really can't see anything of mechanical interest. With the Model S, the buried motor and pack are part necessity, and part convention.



I, on the other hand, believe in bearing it all!  Here's a shot with the forced-air cooled motor, phase-one motor drive, and budding battery pack together. I had the blower and ducting backwards in the first rendering I posted of them. The ducting has to be in front, because the motor is pretty tight against the frame and swingarm; no room behind it. I lieu of my finned enclosure, I will probably highlight the power cables going in the motor, for the time being.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I made a couple decisions on the blower drive. One, I am not going to try to squeeze a motor inside the housing. I have plenty of room behind it, and that gives me complete freedom of choice in motors. It also would allow an easier R&R, should something happen to it; temperature checks, etc. Two, I am going to put a few pennies into this assembly when I do it, and have some fun with it. The first thing is I am going to buy the motor I want, not the cheapest one. My first choices are ~$240 for the motor and controller. I'm doing the drive plate in Pro/E, and plan to use gears to provide the proper ratio, and recess them into the plate a little, with a thin metal cover plate. I'm looking for resonance more than weight savings. The goal is to amplify and blend the sounds of the motor, gears, and compressed air, into a distinctive performance sound.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There have been quite a few changes, so time for another big picture view, to see how the pieces play out as a whole. Ideally, you want the whole to appear to be greater than the actual sum of the parts. The one piece that is not in it as this point, that I see in my head, and that will have a very profound effect on this, is the finned controller enclosure. I haven't put the fins back on the battery box rear plate yet either because the first draft would have been in aesthetic conflict to what will happen with the controller, someday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Caveat: Journal Entry* (long winds a'blowin...)

I am, by nature, a big picture person but learned, over the years, to appreciate and focus on the details and how they combine to form the comprehensive. Eventually though, all those pesky little trees begin to crowd my creative space and I have to back away to get a little perspective on the forest. That's where I've been with Scrape the past few days. I only looked at the renderings and pictures when I needed to see something specific, and tried to keep my focus on the vision I have for Scrape, in my noggin. Then, I backed even further away to my real big picture, career/life, vision to see how I am progressing towards that, and how Scrape fits (as a single detail) in it.

Out of the blue, Nic texts me in that time period and we dig into all this philosophical, psychological, analytical, business/life stuff over a very good Jamaican lunch. I haven't heard from him in months, and he pops back into the picture, on point, like he had been in the mix the whole time; and added exactly what I needed, at the time. Pretty cool. 

I am happy to report that Scrape is perfect. Perfect individual detail, perfectly aligned with my big picture goals, flowing perfectly with the rest of my plans.  That means no major upsets, no shakeups, no reshuffling the deck. It is _finally_ what I was looking for, what I need, and what I think I will need down the road.

I can't wait to fully reveal what I'm up to, but have learned from my mistakes, again. I actually learned many decades ago about controlling your message in business, but somehow seemed to have forgotten that when I moved to Columbus. I let my association with CIF misinterpret and redefine my evil master plan. Observing CIF members continue to mangle it in simple introductions over the past months has given me the resolve to super glue my lips shut. I have shared some of the details with Curt and Nic, after making them take blood oaths of secrecy (kidding), and with my pretty client. She has become one of my closest confidants here - actually, I think I told her more/sooner than even Curt, who is supposed to be my right hand. Did I mention that she's also pretty? 


More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the midst of my perspective flyby, I did a little chicken scratching of what I was seeing in my head. As I hash it out in CAD, I will share more and more of that. The first thing is the tombstone section of the rear battery box plate. The fins were deleted because they were in aesthetic conflict with what I have in mind for the motor drive enclosure. Too many fins, running in directions that didn't flow together; _i.e._, it looked messy and confused. Some of the other details, like the motor cooler intake manifold/chin spoiler, front battery box mount/frame structure, and the frame gussets that still need to be cut and welded in, provided enough context for me to develop a simple web for the tombstone section. The thin ribs will add a little extra structural reinforcement, without a huge weight penalty; and the bosses give me an extra location to attach something (there's always that _one last thing_...).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to start on the intake manifold, but first I needed a look at the assembly together, just to make sure I like the web design in the tombstone. Yup.  The manifold is the last piece of this assembly that I need to verify before whittling those plates down and committing to this design.












On digital Scrape; mission accomplished. The mild web pattern blends in better, and complements the webbing in the motor drive base plate. It's really a form follows function, typical race-oriented, thing; and should be a reoccurring theme on the bike...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The forced air cooling manifold, combined with the forthcoming upper front box mount, will mask the hard corners of the box; directing focus to the details in the side and rear plates. I still have to add fastener bosses to the mounting points, and cut the front opening, but this is basically it. I designed it to be fabrication oriented to allow me to adjust the shape to the exact configuration of the box and blower, when they're finally hard-mounted on the bike. Air flows under the box, and is then funneled into the blower intake port. The flow area is never less than the port area, and my hope is that the thin, hollow, carbon manifold will amplify the natural resonance of the assembly. In my unscientific testing (tapping on sheets of material), I found that carbon fiber has a lower resonance frequency than steel or aluminum sheet, so I am hoping for deeper howling sound to blend with those of air being compressed, and screaming electric motors. Ideally, the lovechild of a big jet and a turbo ICE vehicle... The front and lower corners will be rounded a bit, not so razor sharp.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice Todd! Now please get building...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't rush the guy, it's only been 2 years so far 

I'm liking the carbon scoop, it "unboxed" the battery box.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very nice Todd! Now please get building...


Thanks. Live vicariously through others much?! Just kidding, stay tuned, I'll get there...





JRP3 said:


> Don't rush the guy, it's only been 2 years so far ...


Ummm, its has already run, and has been ridden, in those two years, thank you. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but as much as I needed. I didn't know there was a quota I needed to meet for my little EV to be considered _valid_. Scrape is actually right where I need it to be right now; out of sight, out of Columbus' mind.

The delay is me trying, again, to work with CIF. It must be nice to have money to buy CNC mills and not really care if they actually do anything beyond look impressive.  Eventually, I will lose the little bit of patience I have, listen to Curt, and just go machine the parts at Great. I've been slowly withdrawing from active life in this city all year. My goal is to take advantage of the cost of living and cheap resources, without actually being a part of the community. Extremely isolated, incredibly boring, but effective, and less stressful.

It'll be interesting to see how/if they react to the fact that Scrape won't be at their Mini Maker Faire in October, because we didn't cut a few simple parts. My money is on good old Columbus apathy, and them not really caring though. Works for me as I would really rather not go, because I don't get anything from being there.





JRP3 said:


> ...I'm liking the carbon scoop, it "unboxed" the battery box.


Thank you. I just wanted metal instead of plastic (carbon), but fully intended to keep the basic form developed with the carbon fiber box. It just took a while to work through all the many parts and pieces to get back to the chin...

It'll get better with the upper mount, and there will be a shrouded heat exchanger (for the motor controller) on the front of the box.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, yes... Unfortunately that is the current position of my EV building activities, telling others how I would build theirs... Sad I know, but I try to not step on others' toes. 

Great work you sir, and I only meant to show my enthusiasm for your build and skills!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Ummm, its has already run, and has been ridden, in those two years, thank you.


I was only half kidding, compared to the Inhaler you're working at lightning speed


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, yes... Unfortunately that is the current position of my EV building activities, telling others how I would build theirs... Sad I know, but I try to not step on others' toes.
> 
> Great work you sir, and I only meant to show my enthusiasm for your build and skills!


Thank you buddy. I always see your feedback as enthusiasm, I just couldn't resist the opportunity for a little sarcasm.  If you follow my incessant babbling, you'll know that providing a platform _for_ others to love vicariously through my madness is a huge part of why I even do this. My toes are just fine...






JRP3 said:


> I was only half kidding, compared to the Inhaler you're working at lightning speed


 It's because I only have half as much vehicle to obsess over...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm saying nothing about how long it takes.

My build might be running just when it reaches vintage status!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm saying nothing about how long it takes.
> 
> My build might be running just when it reaches vintage status!


Reinforcements have arrived! A fellow scratch-builder. A guy who knows what happens when you address one issue (ten more surface), and what happens to all those when you make a "simple", necessary, change to one in the middle of that pack.

I think parametric modeling should be a required course for anyone feeling the need to build something scratch, or comment on the work of someone else doing it. So they can see what happens when you click okay to the fuzzy message the software gives you when executing a change, and then suddenly watch hours and days of work go bye-bye...

I'm just kidding guys!  Don't address that last paragraph unless your comments are properly, and sufficiently, laced with sarcasm. 




I cut the intake, and added fasteners. After thinking about it for a while, I decided to just weld four more aluminum studs to the box, and use acorn nuts, like the side plates. The carbon should be thin enough to stretch over the studs, I think.  Then, as much for aesthetic effect as for real structural properties, I added dished metal washers. That just requires a machined pocket in the outer layer of carbon for the washer to seat in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I haven't seen my magic scooter in a couple weeks (I think). I have been extremely busy with other projects, with CAD work for Scrape; and, as mentioned, I needed to step away to make sure my perspective is fresh. Yesterday, I spent a couple hours at the storage unit, tidying up, taking measurements, and gawking at Scrape. I'm still infatuated with the little thing.  I also spent a couple minutes in the saddle, and captured the moment. Afterwards, I ran with it and hopped on for a ten foot ride, but didn't think to capture video... No, I haven't gained a gut - that's gravity!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good!

Also looks like it needs some pedals and cranks to make it go!

Actually, joking aside that looks a really good stance for a long tail cargo bike.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Hurry up and finish it, so, I can take it for a ride!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looking good!
> 
> Also looks like it needs some pedals and cranks to make it go!...


Lol, thanks Woody!  Or, someone to actually work on it, instead of sitting on it making swooshing sounds...







Woodsmith said:


> ...Actually, joking aside that looks a really good stance for a long tail cargo bike.


I had to Google that. Pretty cool. I do plan to haul a lot of azz, figurative and literal. 






ken will said:


> Hurry up and finish it, so, I can take it for a ride!!!


Have you been hanging out with Tyler?  Stop by anytime. We'll push it to the top of a big hill, and away you go - greenest race bike ever!  The front brakes are killer though, better leave room to ease into them, or you'll create a new trick - backflip-stoppies!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The developments made so far in Scrape's reassembly, another project I have cooking, and some conversations I've had recently with a few people, are all helping me really fine tune my focus for this project. As is usual with me, I have a lot of ideas and like to kind of throw them at a project and see what sticks as it develops. I had a lot of art mixed in here, but as Scrape develops it's abundantly clear that this is a race bike. The art aspect must be there with me but, in this case, it's really about performing art. I want to build the leanest, meanest, race bike possible - period. Two things that have to go are bare steel and the woofer. Bare steel is a lot of work, solely for aesthetics. It makes much more sense to powder coat or paint the frame, and with all the aluminum I'm adding in its cradle a splash of color seems fitting. What's more race-oriented than Ferrari Corsa red? Also, even though my plan was for it to be removable, I am just not going to do the woofer. I am going to go with a carbon tank shell, to match the fairing, hugger fender, and air intake manifold. That also gives me room for more electronics under the tank. It might take your eyes a while to adjust to the red...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Red and carbon are a faultless combination and look awesome. Maybe splash a bit more about, does it go with the forks and swingarm well?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Red and carbon are a faultless combination and look awesome...


Thanks Tyler!  I'm glad the red is going over well. Nic shared your sentiments in a biz email. The funny thing is I tried the red frame before, and it kind of fell flat. The right frame, and right combination of parts hanging on it, and it just works now. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Maybe splash a bit more about, does it go with the forks and swingarm well?


I'll probably work my way into that - carefully. As it stands, the seat has the red Bat-T and tribal-ish-lightning graphic, and I had always planned to have some small complementary red items like the panic button, lighting, etc. As other parts makes sense, I will try splashes of actual painted/powdercoated/red-anodized accenting...

My style is sort of understated wretched exess - I would to daily drive a $3MIL Lamborghini Veneno, but finished in matte carbon/dark wheels and trim, not a crazy color; so I don't know if I could take the fork sliders and swingarm in red. I had to bribe myself pretty to not make the frame black.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I was worried about it being too much red myself, and in my mind it seems so. What I suggest is don't anodise parts red as it won't match. Powder coat all the chosen parts in the same batch to get a perfect match. Perhaps the rear sprocket and front brake disc carriers would be all you need to tie the colour together. That sounds good ATM. And anodized forks, brackets and swingarm. Check later models as I believe they had a beefier alu swingarm with the same look. And a matt anodise would look awesome next to that awesome red and gleaming carbon. 

I love the riding position and ergonomics BTW, but would need to scale it up for me. Looking great though.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow, I said awesome a bit much there!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...What I suggest is don't anodise parts red as it won't match. Powder coat all the chosen parts in the same batch to get a perfect match...


I don't like some parts in opaque or plastic-like colors. The anodizing would be on small metal parts, like buttons, fittings, etc. The trick to making the powder coated parts and anodized parts work together is to not put them together. Done properly you just see red highlights, not different shades of red. When you look at most things, you're not seeing one color; you're seeing various shades and your mind develops a generic color from it. Red and black especially are usually an amazing array of colors, but most people see one. Artists see the colors in patches - it's actually disturbing sometimes. So, on Scrape, I would try to use anodizing in ways that sort of match the darker zones in the powder coating, and people just see Corsa...






tylerwatts said:


> ...Perhaps the rear sprocket and front brake disc carriers would be all you need to tie the colour together. That sounds good ATM...


Too much for me, I'm not that much fun. The frame will be the main red piece, and everything else will be really small accents - like really small. The second biggest will likely be the accents on the seat.

I know, I'm boring... But...
































tylerwatts said:


> ...And anodized forks, brackets and swingarm. Check later models as I believe they had a beefier alu swingarm with the same look. And a matt anodise would look awesome next to that awesome red and gleaming carbon...


I'm leaving all of my aluminum bare, no coatings or plating. It will age over time, and I will bead or brush it during one of Scrape's many disassembly/inspection processes, as deemed necessary. I love raw aluminum, and it maintains its appearance for so long there's really no need for coatings - unless it's a part that needs hard anodizing for wear resistance. I was going to anodize it when I wanted everything dark, but still "metal" - now the aluminum is going to be raw.






tylerwatts said:


> ...I love the riding position and ergonomics BTW, but would need to scale it up for me. Looking great though.


Thanks. It's actually pretty much road race style. The distances from seat to pegs, seat to bars, and bar/seat height ratio, are all patterned after road racing bikes. So, unless you're nearly 7ft tall you could fold up on the bike, just like they do. It's not being built for comfort - I want control. I got used to the sportbike ergonomics and started to prefer them over my dragbike style. I remembered that and morphed Scrape into it. That's also why my straight-line racer, that's going to be a little over three inches off the ground (where the name "Scrape" came from - ground-scraping...), has 40-degrees of lean angle - maybe more now that I was able to tuck the battery box inside the frame. 







tylerwatts said:


> Wow, I said awesome a bit much there!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My retreat to get a little fresh perspective on the forest that is Todd Perkins Design, combined with Nic stepping back into the picture at the perfect time and helping me hash out more of those big picture details, worked. I really need to develop my own Sporty tank shell, and not simply pop an aftermarket steel shell on my little creation. I've come this far, what's a few hundred more hours... Soooo, to the CAD workshop I went. It actually didn't take that long to finish what I started, and add a little _Todd_ to the iconic Harley form. I have some surface defects left, but I think I can work through those easier _live_. As I work out the plan, I will make a final decision on that and either fix them beforehand digitally, or sand them out in the plugs. Either way, I should be spending some time on the ShopBot (relatively) soon whittling in 3D.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I migrated towards the aftermarket steel tank shell to keep myself from going overboard with CAD, machine time, and fabrication. I thought I had the problem licked when I was able to get a workable CAD model sorted out in a few hours (added to what had already been invested in the tank model), but I forgot just how slow the ShopBot is. This would take approximately 9 hours - each side - to cut from MDF or modeling board, and 3-4 from foam (which would then have to be epoxy coated. Then, I would still have to lay-up and bag the carbon shells. Have to think about this...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sharpening Scrape's focus even more narrowly on racing and performance brings fringe benefits, such as desperately needed space inside the tank shell for electrical components. The fuse panel is likely going there, which will really tidy up the wiring, and the assembly/dis-assembly processes. I think I am going to hinge the shell to flip forward, so replacing fuses, doing inspections, etc, are quick painless operations; that I don't even have to leave the saddle to complete. I should also be able to hide the main pack connectors inside the shell. I am hashing the detail out now, because how I do the hinge will affect the design of the shell. The bracket shown here (yellow-highlighted curve) would require a section of the shell to be attached to it and not move.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have given up on working with CIF. The Bridgeport at Great Machine might be free Thursday through Sunday, so I am developing the coordinates for programming conversational 2-axis CNC, via the DRO; or even manually machining. First up was the easy one - the Motor Drive Unit mounting plate. If I do end up machining manually, I would probably rotate this (and the plate on the mill) 45-degerees and re-plot the coordinates for the diagonal cuts; rotate back 90-degrees and plot the other diagonal cuts. Four cuts in each direction. Pretty certain I can just do it all with 2-axis CNC, in one setup though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The battery box rear plate is much more involved. After staring at it, mentally running through different machining options, and playing with the coordinate points, I think I am going to drill, bore, and machine, all the holes, counterbores, and slots (white points); rough cut a boxy perimeter profile (red points); flip it and cut the internal flange for the sheet metal box to mount over (green points). So, none of the pocket cuts, or curvy external shape, will be done in this round. I simplified it as much as possible to allow for manual or 2D conversational machining. I can add external radii to the sharp profile corners if I use conversational machining (inside corners will automatically have the same radius as the tool). This round of machining will allow full function, and when I get it mounted I can double check the positioning of the structural ribs the pockets will leave, and hopefully find more material to remove. I would like to cut the back side in full 3D machining, so hopefully I can strike a deal with Eric, or someone, by the time it's ready for it.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> I migrated towards the aftermarket steel tank shell to keep myself from going overboard with CAD, machine time, and fabrication. I thought I had the problem licked when I was able to get a workable CAD model sorted out in a few hours (added to what had already been invested in the tank model), but I forgot just how slow the ShopBot is. This would take approximately 9 hours - each side - to cut from MDF or modeling board, and 3-4 from foam (which would then have to be epoxy coated. Then, I would still have to lay-up and bag the carbon shells. Have to think about this...


Wow, I wish I had your CAD skills! I joined TechShop and now have virtually unlimited access to TorMach 4-axis CNC, ShopBot, Water-jet cutter, Laser cutter engraver, etc. Unfortunately I'm struggling with the CAD that it takes to take advantage of the tools available...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Baratong said:


> Wow, I wish I had your CAD skills! I joined TechShop and now have virtually unlimited access to TorMach 4-axis CNC, ShopBot, Water-jet cutter, Laser cutter engraver, etc. Unfortunately I'm struggling with the CAD that it takes to take advantage of the tools available...


Thanks.  The learning curve can be kind of steep getting into CAD, but it's often not so bad once you find something that works. I think finding software that works the way you think is one of the biggest hurdles. Download any free trials you find, follow a few tutorials, and concentrate on the interface more than what you're drawing or modeling, to see if it's a natural process. If you can find that, it's just a matter of spending enough time to become familiar with it. Then, the fun starts. 

I love, love, love Rhino because I like sketching. I love the flow of lines. I see lines in everything I look at, everywhere I look. Creating things with NURBS curves is just like sketching, and Rhino's four view interface is like having a 3-dimensional piece of paper in front of me. Second to that is Pro/E (SolidWorks is pretty much the same), where I'm more restricted but have the engineering precision I need.

I've seen pretty amazing things people have done with SketchUp, Z-Brush (they have a free/entry-level program called Sculptris), and AutoDesk (they have also some free stuff under the 123 brand too).


What software have you tried so far?


I have the opposite problem here in Columbus. Idea Foundry doesn't make operational machinery a priority, so their equipment/software is rarely up to the challenge for the kinds of stuff I do (when it actually works). That big CNC is just sad - a huge, hulking, mill that has yet to do more than a couple 2D toolpaths; and now just sits dormant. My friend's machine shop is more than capable, but usually preoccupied and/or hard set for their daily tasks. Dripping in CAD, dry as a bone on CNC...


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks.  The learning curve can be kind of steep getting into CAD, but it's often not so bad once you find something that works. I think finding software that works the way you think is one of the biggest hurdles. ...


I've struggled with the learning curve and have some basic success building models for 3D printing housings for some of the electronics I've built for my EV. It is very basic though, just straight lines and flat surfaces.



toddshotrods said:


> I love, love, love Rhino because I like sketching. I love the flow of lines. I see lines in everything I look at, everywhere I look. Creating things with NURBS curves is just like sketching, and Rhino's four view interface is like having a 3-dimensional piece of paper in front of me. ...


I'll have to take a look at Rhino. The cost for most of these packages is an issue though. I don't think I'd be able to allocate over $1k for the software(!) I can think of so many other things I could do with that money on my projects.



toddshotrods said:


> ... Second to that is Pro/E (SolidWorks is pretty much the same), where I'm more restricted but have the engineering precision I need.
> 
> I've seen pretty amazing things people have done with SketchUp, Z-Brush (they have a free/entry-level program called Sculptris), and AutoDesk (they have also some free stuff under the 123 brand too).


I've worked with mechanical engineers a lot through my career and am amazed at how easy they can make it look to do some amazing designs. Pro/E and SolidWorks are two of the packages that I've seen in use a lot. I think those would be overkill for the simple work that I would be able to do at this stage. I've looked at SketchUp and it looked promising. I have access to AutoDesk at TechShop too.



toddshotrods said:


> What software have you tried so far?


I've tried AutoDesk at TechShop and it is pretty powerful and fairly intuitive. I use FreeCAD at home and have successfully used FreeCAD to make models for 3D printing. (Images of the housing for my BMS main controller with touch-screen LCD modeled is below)


Many thanks for the advice and tips, I'll look into some of the packages you mentioned. I guess it will just take a lot of time and effort learning one of the tools and getting down the basic concepts and skills first. Someone as skilled as you are at it really makes it look easy though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Baratong said:


> I've struggled with the learning curve and have some basic success building models for 3D printing housings for some of the electronics I've built for my EV. It is very basic though, just straight lines and flat surfaces...


You're off to a good start! Trust me, my first efforts in CAD weren't so hot. The first couple times I tried it I literally closed the software and walked away. I just couldn't take being defeated and eventually won the battle; then, I fell madly in love. 






Baratong said:


> ...Someone as skilled as you are at it really makes it look easy though!...


Ah shucks!  The funny thing is I am not really doing _my_ thing. My real stuff requires every bit of a 4 or 5 axis machine's ability, and this stuff can mostly be all cut in 2.5D, by a decent machinist with a patch over one eye. I have seriously had to dumb my CAD work down, and _still_ can't find anyone here that wants to challenge themselves enough to flex my creative muscles in the simple stuff. CIF has no interest in doing anything beyond tinkering. Eric has the equipment and _can_ do it, but I don't think it's his idea of "fun".

Someday...






Baratong said:


> ...I'll have to take a look at Rhino. The cost for most of these packages is an issue though. I don't think I'd be able to allocate over $1k for the software(!) I can think of so many other things I could do with that money on my projects...
> 
> ...Many thanks for the advice and tips, I'll look into some of the packages you mentioned. I guess it will just take a lot of time and effort learning one of the tools and getting down the basic concepts and skills first...


No problemo, hope it helps. Keep hammering way at it. SolidWorks and Pro/E (Creo now) are probably definitely overkill. They're expensive, and cumbersome. I tend to only use Pro/E when I really need the advantages of parametric modeling, and as soon as possible I export my work there into Rhino.

Rhino is around $1K, I think. Definitely use the free trials though and make sure that whatever you spend money on works with you - otherwise you will definitely wish you had spent the money on the projects. SketchUp is cool, but I think it takes the Pro version to do anything serious/decent. It's less than Rhino, but also far less capable, IMO. The shop manager at CIF uses it almost exclusively for CAD to CNC, and for visualization/demonstration. He modeled the entire new facility and took people on walk-through virtual tours as the building was being built-out. He can't do the engineering type stuff I do though. I can actually rival Pro/E in Rhino for accuracy and tolerances, but there isn't a real history of what and how it was done, and there aren't any real relations between parts and assemblies. Just depends on the need...



I couldn't stop. I had planned to stretch this out through the evening, and just try to be ready for tomorrow (hopefully), but it's really done. I just have to double/triple check the numbers, and then either follow them on the DRO manually, or program it to follow them for me. As nice as it is to watch the machine follow my commands, sometimes I can crank the wheels and be done in the time it would take to program, check, double check, air cut, and then finally cut a part through CNC. The issue is once you hit go you have to be sure or a nice piece of metal becomes an expensive piece of scrap... Either way, I take (a white backdrop) image of this directly to the Bridgeport on my little tablet, which lets me scroll around, zoom in and out, and work back and forth - as long as don't drop it in a puddle of coolant.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You guys have hung in there through my relentless onslaught of CAD renderings, so how about a change of pace? Let's make some chips! 


Remember this little guy? As expected the Bridgeport was free, and I jumped on the opportunity. I drilled 0.750" holes into the two large cutout areas, to bolt the plate to the table through.












Then after figuring out I goofed on the coordinates, and figuring out how to correct them, I started whittling.












After cutting the four corner sockets, three of the outside edges, the center slot, and four of the inside cutouts, I did a new setup, clamping the plate from the ends, and moving it in a bit, to do the remaining two inside cutouts, and square up that last edge.













Here she is. Curt started doing a little clean-up work on it, while I cleaned up the HUGE mess I made. We still have to remove the tabs and finish cleaning and detailing it, but the day was a success. The point of this was to lighten the piece. Remember, I said:


toddshotrods said:


> ...It's ~7lbs now, and I hope to get it down to around half of that...


It is now 1.4lbs - make that a smashing success!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Nice looking piece .

You went through it in 3 passes, looks like?

Miss having access to a mill... we used to have an old Bridgeport with the fancy schmancy punch tape program storage.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

That piece gives me the warm fuzzies. Makes me wanna polish it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Nice looking piece ...





evmetro said:


> That piece gives me the warm fuzzies. Makes me wanna polish it...


Thanks guys - I'm having fun, and making quite a mess of Eric's shop.  I worked on the big plate today. I actually _just_ got home from the shop and out of the shower - couldn't stop -trying to wind down to get at least a couple hours of sleep...






samwichse said:


> ...You went through it in 3 passes, looks like?...


Yup, 3 swipes, slow and easy. Eric's machines are beefy enough, and they are more production oriented, so they are always over my shoulder saying _you could probably cut that in a single pass, two at most, why are you going so slow, you could get a lot more done more quickly if_....






samwichse said:


> ...Miss having access to a mill... we used to have an old Bridgeport with the fancy schmancy punch tape program storage.


That's what I am whittling with, a beefy old Bridgeport manual knee mill - retrofitted with CNC servos on X&Y, and a digital readout that does conversational programming. No tape though!

Pics coming soon...


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Awesome, I like shop porn


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> Awesome, I like shop porn


In my head, I took tons of pics, in real shop life, I seem to have been lost in what I was doing and forgot to use the camera to take them.  I wanted to show the process, but it kind of skips through it to the final result.


Setup. The plate was too wide for the available Y-axis travel, so I fixtured it to the machine half at a time. First side clamped down, the far (long - X-axis) side machined true, then half of the bottom (right side of the screen), squared up. That let me indicate to that corner. From there, I moved X-Y zero to the point on the plate that all my coordinates (which were correct this time) from CAD were based on - just about the top of the tombstone pocket area. I bored a countersink into that zero spot, for re-indicating the plate for the second side.



















Then, I drilled all of the holes on that side of the plate, cut the counterbores, and then the outside profile rough-in. Sorry there are no pics of all that. The conversational DRO machining process is awesome, because when doing a drilling operation the servos positively lock the table in that exact spot for spot drilling, then drilling up to the required spec. Same program, run it once to do all the spot drills, second time to drill pilot holes, then once again for each different size hole, stopping in that spot to drill. The counterbores are a circular pocket cut in each location, each spot preprogrammed to a specific size. Z is controlled manually through all of this, and it waits for you to adjust Z, then proceed to the next step...




Here, re-positoned, all the second side holes and counterbores done, I am getting ready to run the second outside profile rough-in op. Same conversational programming. It's a continuous milling operation, point to point, I just program in the point to move to. It can also do a radius between points, but I just went with the big end mill's radius on inside corners and left the outside corners square, as this is a just rough-in.

















Remember I said I made a mess?! There's much much more...













Here she is. I'll have better pics of it later. You can see the countersink, that is the origin (zero) point, here. Next I have to flip it and cut the inside flange for the box to mount over. Then, we'll start welding up the Motor Drive Unit base stands, using this plate as a fixture to locate them, and working on getting the box fit, welded, and mounted...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little context on my design, engineering, and fabrication, project in a project I call Scrape's battery box: What I am actually building is a controlled environment to produce power in.



Considering the intent to use LiPo, its first job is containment. If things go bad, and fire and/or explosion are the result, this box needs to contain that event long enough for me to remove myself from harm's way.  In addition to the aluminum enclosure, I will probably have a Kevlar _blanket_ that goes over the actual cells. Ideally, I would love to save the box, so if it's a mild event the Kevlar should contain it long enough for the fire system to kick in.
I have been thinking through active cooling systems all along. The box will have forced air cooling, and possibly liquid (if needed). Most of that will be concealed inside, but there should be some Borg-like evidence of something sinister going on inside on the front.
Inspection and maintenance. It will have the side inspection plates, for a quick look at what's happening inside, plus removing and installing the box will be as painless as possible. Ten to twelve bolts, and a few plugs, and it's in or out. So rather than fabricating a bunch of boxes, the pack inside will be a unit that fits in the box. I could have two or three packs, the others being charged or serviced on the bench, pull the box, sit it on the bench, eight more bolts, swap, a bunch or bolts and plugs and Scrape is back in action. I considered a real quick swap setup where it would take less than half of that, and there would be a complete second box ready to go, but Scrape is not that kind of race bike. There's no real rush - it's more about consistency and quality of the action.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, I machined the second side of the battery box rear plate, to allow the box to fit on it. Machining away the outside edges, leaving a raised center section, creates an inside flange to help locate the box. There's enough room to cut a groove for an o-ring later to seal the enclosure.











Here's a look at how the two parts will work together. Four of the counterbores are sockets for the Motor Drive Unit base stands to fit in. I have to turn two more of these, cut them to length, fit them, and let Curt do a little TIG work. I also have to make the six bolt bosses that fit in the three machined pockets in the center rib. Those are for attaching the main plate, and will also be TIG'd to the base plate. Three with little counterbores, three threaded. There will be an unimaginable amount of time spent fitting and detailing all this stuff.  Then, I think I am going to go full 3D sculptured, _Todd-style_, on the back of that rear plate. Now that I'm migrating away from trying to work through CIF, I am starting to remember who I am, and seeing things a bit differently.










Original weight of the plate ~17lbs. Post initial maching, it is now 13lbs. Not bad for just roughing in the profile, drilling mounting holes, and cutting a mounting flange. I have hope for that 5-pound target.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Moving back to Rhino from Pro/E, I realized that I don't really need full 3D CNC machining to accomplish what I desire on the back of the battery box plate. This piece will be mostly hidden by the Motor Drive Unit and the motor, so full 3D machining would be appreciated only in build pics and during assembly and dis-assembly. I just need curves that Pro/E doesn't like to do - I need to _sketch_ freely. The black line is, of course, of the outside profile. The green points and circles are the holes and counterbores I just drilled and machined. The blue lines are the new lightening paths. I can actually shave more weight with the organic curves I do in Rhino, because I can sweep around things and grab little extra hunks of unnecessary metal; plus make it look better. The red triangle connects the three points on the frame that I want to brace.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, even the sketch is looking great. Can't wait for the real thing!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, even the sketch is looking great. Can't wait for the real thing!


Thanks Tyler.  I'm not sure yet when we'll do that round of machining. I have a couple manual machine processes to do, and we'll start fitting and welding up the Motor Drive Unit, then probably get the battery box mounted to that assembly, and all that mounted on the bike. I need to verify the layout and measurements before whittling all that metal away.  Curt also wants us to do it all, because he wants to convince Eric to let me do some of his CAM programming to get/keep the workflow moving faster there. So this project would be proof of concept...



Here's what I see when I look at those pretty curves, and think about them in terms of machine toolpaths, for 2.5D machining. A bunch of pocket cuts (white, pink, and aqua, curves), followed by a handful of profile cuts (black curves, minus the one connected to the red triangle, and the one in the center) to strategically remove as much metal as possible, and create a sculptured piece.












The final result should look like this. If I decide to really get greedy, there is more metal I can cut out of the three structural ribs, by making them triangulated webs, instead of solid runs; however, we're going to make a fixture to locate this in the CNC, so I can always go back and cut more, later...












The through holes in the centers of the counterbores are missing, as I was mainly concentrating on verifying the toolpaths and estimating machine times. I'm guessing around 12-16 hours of machine time right now. I had the feed and plunge rates way too slow, and came up with 27 hours!  I'll reprogram and recalculate that later, gotta take a break...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been swamped with trying to wrap up this fashion project, and opening the door for doing programming for Great Machine. The big couture costume party is this Saturday so, ready or not, that will soon be over. She's been asked to be the show closer, last one to strut down the big runway, and has been doing magazine and TV interviews, so maybe I'll get some long overdue design credit in this city...


I've also been closely tracking, a bit fascinated, maybe even a touch obsessed, with Kawasaki's new H2-R hyperbike. It has bubbled to the surface all the nostalgia concerning my first street bike; my smoking, snarling, plug-fouling, H1-B, 500cc, two-stroke. So, I can't resist at least entertaining the thought of presenting Scrape as the reincarnation of that little beast, and tagging it the "H1-E".  "B" stood for brake, meaning my version of the H1 had a front disc brake. "E", of course, stands for electric. I imagine insetting jewel-like H1-E emblems in the sides of carbon tank, with metal bezels. I also happen to have that little piece of Damascus steel, so I created the logo, ran an engraving simulation, and did an overlay with a pic of Damascus steel. Ideally, imagine this set in a CAD/CNC-whittled titanium bezel, with bronze rivets.  That thing between the 1 and the E is supposed to be a plug...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's the H1-E logo in the tank, with a first draft of the bezel. Obviously back to the H1 tank style (just experimenting with the idea, at this point though). The logo is set to be, more or less, parallel with the ground, with the tank at its desired orientation on the bike. This version of the bezel has a pocket to receive the logo plate, and the same four holes also bolt the assembly into a pocket in the carbon tank shell. I'm, admittedly, a little thin on the edges of the bezel right now . It's actually doable, but there's no margin for error, meaning machining times increase for the sake of accuracy. That could mean many hours of machine time, or I could simply add more material to the model, and speed up the machine.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A look at Scrape with the H1-E tank shell. The fashion project is finally finished; not to my satisfaction, but my end of it is over. The big show is tonight, and I am turning a couple important corners, into next week and the coming New Year. I plan to use this as a pivot point to continue my transition out of daily shop life and more into design. Starting to do more CAD and CNC programming for Great Machine will help facilitate that, give me access to better equipment, and start pulling my focus on Scrape more towards design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Last week, I did the CAD/CNC work and machining for Curt, for a simple carbon fiber panel to mount his digital dash in his race car. Yesterday, we were just hanging out at the shop, and I noticed the other piece of carbon fiber, that we're going to cut a second panel from. I remembered my design and plans for the forced-air blower on the Inhaler, which I have scaled down to fit Scrape, and my experiments with a small piece of, wet lay-up, carbon another friend had made. It had a deeper resonance than steel or aluminum.

The pieces that we're making Curt's dash plates from are from a local, high-end, composite shop. I think it's autoclaved, prepreg. Definitely another world from the stuff most people get to touch and experience, so I decided to see what the resonance was like. Now, I'm fascinated with my original idea again because this stuff has a beautiful, metallic, resonance. I asked Eric, who is helping the composite shop with their machining setup and operations, if he could snag me a piece to continue my experiments. In the meantime, here's what I hear:


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> In the meantime, here's what I hear:


You are Extraordinarily Insane


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> You are Extraordinarily Insane




Haven't even scratched the surface...


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Haven't even scratched the surface...


 

Just tell the nice man "thank you" Todd


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> You are Extraordinarily Insane





grayballs said:


> Just tell the nice man "thank you" Todd


Thank you Ken.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Thank you Ken.


You are welcome Todd.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> You are welcome Todd.





In other news: I thought I would have some more shop porn today, because Scrape was supposed to be back in the Great Machine shop yesterday. Curt and I were in the van at the storage unit but, long story-short, it's still in storage; and probably going to remain there for a bit. External circumstances delayed the transport, and gave me time to remember why I took it out of both shops and stuck it in that storage unit. I have been bombarded with (well-intentioned) _advice_ on what I _should_ do for days, and the bike isn't even there.

I need to step back a bit, plan better, and be set to get in and out as quickly as possible, while disseminating as little information as possible about what I am doing and why...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I already have a ridiculous amount of time in developing this blower, and have an equally ridiculous amount left to invest to realize it. I am nowhere near ready to start machining, but need to get my head back into it so I split it open to get a look at what happened when I scaled it down. For the most part, things are working much more in my favor. On the Inhaler this would have required two huge chunks of billet, and possibly a couple hundred hours of machine time, to cut in metal. With the, scaled-down, Scrape-sized, version I can cut it from 1" thick billet plate, and in a fraction of the machine time. That makes an aluminum housing a feasible option, or I can do real aluminum molds for bagged and autoclaved carbon.

The blue section is the all-important inner runner, that was reverse engineered from the original leaf blower housing. The green section is the exterior surface that I designed, to look like a modern, artistic, swipe at an antique supercharger housing. The red knobs are the bolt bosses. They will be trimmed to not protrude into the housing. Overall, I am very pleased with what I see here, and can't wait to dig into it again. The housing section width will be between .080 and .100" in most areas, which should lend itself perfectly to the resonance characteristics I am seeking, in either carbon or cut billet... Next, I really need to have the fan wheel scanned and get it incorporated into the model. I have to model the surface that completes the transition from the intake port (center hole) to the runner (blue), and that needs to follow the shape of the blades on the fan wheel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There's a local company, an affiliate of CIF, that they've been recommending to people for 3D scans. My plan was to have them scan the fan wheel, but a quick conversation with Alex revealed that the result would definitely not be an engineering tolerance digital representation. He mentioned another local company with a really, expensive, high-end, scanner that he was trying to strike a deal with to come in periodically to scan objects, but there's nothing even tentative in the works for that.

I think I am going to reverse engineer this one, the way I normally do - careful measurements, and draftings, pulled directly from the existing wheel. I'll starting by drawing a grid on one of the blades, and wait a bit to see if Eric gets his Faro arm back online. That would work as well as a scan. If not, I'll do it my way. I lifted this from the Inhaler Build Pics, and re-tagged it, to refresh my memory. The first thing I noticed is that the intake surface (dirty slightly dished center section, on the left) is much flatter than I thought. That's important because the blades pull air in from the center port, and compress and direct it using this surface, slinging it out into the runner (note how the dirt is slung to the far wall of the runner). Other than that, twenty, relatively simple, blades. Model one, create the profile of the main surface, and array nineteen more around it; add a motor shaft sleeve on the back, and have it printed. This would be a really fun part to cut, but I don't have access to a 5-axis mill, yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Progress is pretty slow on Scrape right now because I've finally convinced myself to stop buying parts and materials long enough to upgrade my real tools - my technology. I purchased a new laptop, need a new/better smartphone, new tablet, and software. The upside is I will be able to do crazier things with CAD/CNC, and should make more money (eventually) to make Scrape more and better.

I think this coming weekend or some time next week we'll be able to get back to the battery box though, which will open the doors to getting it running - just in time for Ohio winter.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My trusty old Saturn developed a few rather serious mechanical (engine) issues over the last month or two, and after a lot of soul-searching, number-crunching, and forward-thinking, I made the decision to take advantage of an opportunity that unfolded for a _new_ set of wheels. It's a giant step backwards environmentally, compared to the Saturn, but it's also a giant step forward for the continuing development of Scrape. I am going to purchase a motorcycle carrier that slips in the trailer hitch, and Scrape will ride side-saddle behind the big Crown Vic. That means soon I will be able to transport Scrape anywhere, anytime, though for a price (fuel). I can also rent and pull an enclosed trailer easily, when necessary.

Meet Scrape's new transporter. I'm officially dubbing it "Scoop", the name I was going to use for the bike trailer I was going to build. A big part of this is reducing my concentration on major projects, like building bike trailers, and _souping up_ little Saturns to pull them; but I really don't want a minivan.  I want to focus on design.










It's a Police Interceptor, with the 4.6L V8. It's actually not as bad as you'd think on the highway - seems to get around 23-25MPG; no idea of actual city mileage yet. The real goal is to drive less, using the car mainly when necessary. Ideally, I would love to reach a point where I live in the heart of a large urban area and only need a car occasionally (like to transport Scrape and/or travel). We'll see how well I do in a year or two...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Last week, I ran the ShopBot cutting a bunch of wood parts for a guy, and forgot my respirator. Wood dust and my allergies are an oil-and-water deal, times 1000 without the respirator, so I have been working on breathing for the past week. Almost back to filling my lungs with air, on each breath, I decided to push things a bit and get some work done on Scrape.

I turned the other two standoffs for the Motor Drive Unit base, and bored the top counterbores 0.250" deeper, to match the plan I devised in Rhino.












That allowed me to actually fit the assembly together for the first time.












Then, Curt fused it all together.












We didn't go nuts on this, because it's just a temporary setup. The goal was just for it to be neat and strong.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good, Todd. 

Do look after your lungs though, keep a spare respirator, or even just a good filter mask, in the car for emergencies.

As JimDear told me a few times he is on oxygen for bad lungs and it isn't fun.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looking good, Todd.
> 
> Do look after your lungs though, keep a spare respirator, or even just a good filter mask, in the car for emergencies.
> 
> As JimDear told me a few times he is on oxygen for bad lungs and it isn't fun.


Thanks Woody. 

I normally keep a decent quality paint/dusk mask in the car, to be ready for such occasions. I assumed it was there, but couldn't find in and figured I'd suffer through one job - I grossly overestimated how long that suffering would last, after the job and money were gone...

My allergies are generally pretty mild, comparatively, but there are certain things I know to avoid. My lungs end up so full of mucus, just from my system overreacting and trying to kill the perceived offender, that it's really challenging to get air in them. That's the only severe consequence I have, and it's really easily managed, when I don't do stupid crap like I just did. You'd think I would know better, and take it more seriously, because my brother died from an asthma attack. He couldn't get air, even after breathing treatments, and the ambulance didn't make it in time.

Nope, stubborn as the day I was born...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I also machined a scrap strip of aluminum bar, to make the six bolt bosses for the MDU main plate from. I considered doing something goofy in CAD, and at least using the data for conversational programming on the Bridgeport, but I think I am just going to manually machine six little square chunks, with perfectly centered holes. Three get counterbored holes, three get threaded holes, and the important thing is that they line up properly. I have a unique twist on the finned cover in mind, after all the electronics have been mounted, that would pretty much obscure any view of trickery on these little bosses; so I am trying to keep them simple.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A look at a mildly lowered digital Scoop (courtesy of the Google SketchUp Warehouse), transporting digital Scrape.











The point of this massive car is it will be relatively unaffected by a 300lb motorcycle hanging off its rump, I don't have to be concerned with the bike sticking out on the sides, I don't have to build a more powerful engine just to be able to go anywhere at any speed, and there's no trailer to store and find parking for (challenging in the urban jungles I love). I just have to be mindful of that rear overhang!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Either Scrape is even smaller then I imagined or you have really huge cars over there!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Either Scrape is even smaller then I imagined or you have really huge cars over there!!!


 A little of each, but mostly because it's a classic, full-sized, American car - one of the last. Our streets used to be littered with them, now _we_ drive even more humongous SUVs; regardless of fuel prices.

My Crown Vic is about the size of a new Rolls Royce Ghost, at 212" long, 78" wide (actually the width of a Phantom), and almost five feet tall. It is a relative featherweight though, at 4000lbs (a Ghost, and the aforementioned SUVs are ~5500-6000lbs). Compared to the old 60s and 70s American big cars, this is a puppy. 

One amazing thing is the turning radius. I can whip this huge car around in circles almost as tight as my Hondas and Saturn. Curt and I were going to a Wendy's drive-thru and, after entering the parking lot, you're supposed to go around the building to enter the drive-thru lane, and pull up to the screen. I whipped the big Vic to the right and then immediately back left towards the screen. He was like, "you're never gonna make it!" Then when it just pirouetted into the lane, and in front of the screen, he said, "my Honda couldn't have done that!"


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Are you going for the Palm Sander scroll finish on the slab to cut back the foundry scale and printing ??


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

See the 3 steps on the inside cuts but not the outside cuts.
That comes from spindle flex and you probably went clockwise on both inside and outside. So go anticlockwise on inside cuts and clockwise on outside.
My router has massive flex but Ive never seen a mill do this.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Are you going for the Palm Sander scroll finish on the slab to cut back the foundry scale and printing ??...


Close but a little more subtle finish, with media blasting. We hand finish, then blast the parts, then coat with WD40. This is glass bead. I might try some more exotic media to see what I like best, later.















RIPPERTON said:


> ...See the 3 steps on the inside cuts but not the outside cuts.
> That comes from spindle flex and you probably went clockwise on both inside and outside. So go anticlockwise on inside cuts and clockwise on outside.
> My router has massive flex but Ive never seen a mill do this.


You're close. It's mostly because I have a bad habit of using really long tools, and hanging the spindle too far out instead of raising the table (CNC converted manual knee mill). The long tool thing is from doing deep 3D surfacing in soft materials, where I needed the clearance. The spindle issue is because I hate cranking that table up and down, I think they call that being being lazy. 

In any case, the marks are deceptive. You can see them much more in the camera flash than you can in real life. It's the same on the outside as the inside, the flash just didn't catch it there, from that angle. You can't feel it like you think you would either. They really are more marks from the end of the tool, than ridges. Notice the big plate that this bolts too is much cleaner? That's because Curt nagged me about my long tools and low table by then, and told me Eric was _going to get me_ (more tease than threat), so I cranked the table up and used the shortest possible tool.

I could have minimized, if not eliminated that, with better setups, changing cut cut direction (as you suggested), etc, but wasn't concerned because the goal was to hand finish and blast these parts. Eric would have cut 0.750" aluminum plate in one pass, and made all of this a moot point, but that requires doing your homework on tools, feed rates, spindle speed, etc, to not snap off a few end mills getting it dialed in...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We've been monitoring the progress and acceptance of EVs as closely as possible, to help us solidify our plans. We find Leno's take on the Lightning production bike curious. He seems lukewarm about it, but seemed to really like Mission. He rode a bike with 200+hp, but never really cracked the throttle and commented on what that much power, especially in electric form, really feels like. He waxed sentimental (in the middle of an e-bike review) about how people would one day restore old gas bikes and marvel at them (like they found something that was missing?)...

In all, it was a good segue into a very informative, productive, discussion with my little team, but still interesting.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Around in circles again...  A combination that hasn't been tried; steel Sporty tank, with red frame, most recent version of the battery box, etc, etc. The point being, I have been really burned out lately and need to think realistically about just getting Scrape back together in time for the coming event and riding season. So, this is the steel tank shell notched, mounted, and done. I am going to start on the carrier for Scoop today, and might go grab Scrape from the storage unit tomorrow, so hopefully some progress soon. The Easyrider's Bike Show tour is just around the corner (Feb 21-22), and (_IF_ I decide to go) Detroit Autorama right after that (Mar 6-8) - so I need to get my azz in gear. Once the battery box, controller, motor, and tank shell, are mounted, it's really just a matter of doing as much detail work as possible to make the first events.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I got off to a slow start on the carrier yesterday. Here's a look at where I am headed with it. A pivoting rail, with angled side plates to create a track for the wheels. I can do some creative sculpturing to cut the weight of the side plates in half, but I am lacking the motivation to do a couple/few days of my old plasma-cut-n-grind-it-out work. Ideally I would do these on the mill, but Great Machine's mills are all very busy right now. The Bridgeport is usually available, so I might consider drilling the inside corner radii on it, and then plasma cutting and grinding out some sweeping connecting lines...












I normally take pride in doing all my tubing notches by hand, but I cheated and did these on the Bridgeport; then squared up the edges of the pivot tube, and drilled the holes on it, to get perfect (4" center to center) spacing on them. Those holes are for pins to lock the carrier in position when Scrape is on-board and ready to be transported.












The end mill was a little under 1.750" diameter, I assume from wear, hence the gaps. I _might_ leave them this time, since it's just a carrier...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I took Scrape apart today, and stuffed all the part and pieces in the trunk of my big driver - it swallowed all of it it, easily. The big Vic was also almost unaware of the bike being in the trunk - handled and drove about the same. The cop car suspension, minus all the cop equipment has the rear end of the Vic pretty high, and even with 300+lbs of bike and parts in the trunk it still had a definite forward rake. My Saturn's headlights would have been in the trees. 

That was the point and plan with buying this car - to have a vehicle that could painlessly transport Scrape.

I've also decided to rework the peg/swingarm mount a bit, so that the nuts that clamp the swingarm are separate from the pegs. That will allow me to easily remove the pegs and fit the bike close to the rear bumper - and not have a shin buster hanging off the back of the car when it's loaded and parked somewhere.

Now I just need to find some motivation to actually work on the thing.  I'm really just not there. I told Curt that this might be my last serious project; at least for the foreseeable future. Five years ago, if I had $50K of disposable income, I would have built something truly _Todd_, and definitely from scratch; today, I would go buy a used E-class Benz and just drive. A lot...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After an unconventional, manly-man, Thanksgiving dinner called a Lowcountry Boil (shrimp, sausage, corn, and potatoes), at Great Machine, we pulled Scrape out of the trunk and reassembled the chassis. I also stripped all the electronics off the old Lexan panel, in preparation for a little Curt Coles wizardry. He has all the right tools, and does very neat electrical systems.

My goals are to get the carrier built, so transporting Scrape is a simple task; and get the battery box, electronics, and motor, mounted so the bike is back to being functional again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to work on the bike this week, and off to an early Sunday start. Yesterday, I started fitting the battery box rear plate to make the frame mounts. I didn't have my camera, so this blurry iPhone pic is all I have. My plan to add the mechanical sophistication of an ICE with a bunch of sculptured aluminum, where most e-bikes have a mass of black plastic, is playing out in real life exactly how I saw it in my head. My CAD work is almost always a digital representation of something I first saw in my head. I forget sometimes that other people can't see in there, and that non-photo-realistic CAD renderings still don't fully convey the message. Can't wait to show what this whole setup looks like in my noggin...












Curt looked at the mocked up plate, and asked what was next. I told him I needed to turn the spacers, have him weld them, and get the motor mounted to be able to locate the battery box. He asked if I wanted him to weld them then (Sunday evening), giving me the nudge I needed to turn the spacers. I did, he welded them and, after a little machine work on the Bridgeport, Scrape's motor was back in place.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> something I first saw in my head. I forget sometimes that other people can't see in there


You need to perfect the Vulcan Mind Meld.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> You need to perfect the Vulcan Mind Meld.




...or, just spend a little more time making the stuff _come to life_. 

If I invested some time and money in better rendering software the CAD renderings would also look more like the real thing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When you're sponsored by a gun manufacturer, blowing off steam takes on new meaning...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I considered putting it in Scrape but, considering it weighs more than the entire bike, I decided that the Inhaler's motor wasn't really a good fit for my racing goals here. 

Here's the link to the classified ad here, in case someone watching this little show has a need.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the motor back in place, I could turn my attention to mounting the battery box. After a LOT of time spent prepping the individual parts, Curt welded the box. I told him he could just tack it, if he didn't feel like fully welding it, but once this guy starts dabbing filler in the puddle he just welds and welds and welds. 













As usual with design projects, I am making real-world adjustments along the way. I then go back to CAD to re-evalulate the comprehensive and determine all the changes those adjustments will require. In this case, I have the battery box mounted lower than in the CAD model. I like it and, if everything else works, I will go with the lower position. It will require a larger tank shell to balance the top end of the bike, which gives me more room for on-board electronics (BMS, etc) - a good thing if it works aesthetically.













A look at the big picture. It's definitely developing the mechanical sophistication I've been harping about.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As I started thinking through actually mounting the box to the rear plate, along with a little complementary chicken scratching in SketchBook, I realized that a load spreader was a good idea. These mounts really just clamp the box to the plate, as the weight of the batteries is carried by the actual plate, via the plate's flange and the front mount. So this spreads the clamping force through the side of the box. The five mounting bolts here are just stand-ins for five taper seat lug nuts, that will thread onto lugs welded to a steel plate on the inside of the box. The point of all this being a super strong, fire and vibration proof, clamp. All metal, and relatively lightweight. I will machine more weight out of all this stuff, over time. I am also attempting to build a natural resonance into this assembly which the motor cooler will take advantage of... It rings like a nice metal drum (insert dancing evil mad scientist emoji here).













The box to plate clamping action will be through steel tabs welded to the lug plate, poking through these slots.













Again, expressing function through form, emphasizing where the (electrical) magic happens, and building my mechanical sophistication, step by little machined step.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...As usual with design projects, I am making real-world adjustments along the way. I then go back to CAD to re-evalulate the comprehensive and determine all the changes those adjustments will require. In this case, I have the battery box mounted lower than in the CAD model. I like it and, if everything else works, I will go with the lower position. It will require a larger tank shell to balance the top end of the bike, which gives me more room for on-board electronics (BMS, etc) - a good thing if it works aesthetically...


I sat on Scrape, tucked into race position, then stared at the recent build pics and the CAD model today, and determined that the lower battery box will not require any changes to the tank. The Sporty tank shell will work fine, as shown in the last CAD rendering.










I thought that I would also need to make a new fairing for high speed runs to direct the air over my helmet, but the new frame, and seat location allow me to tuck in really tight. I was able to tuck my head in right behind the fairing, just barely looking over the top of it. With a helmet, that should let the air stream right over the helmet, off the fairing. I had a couple dragbikes setup like that it and they were really stable at speed (130-140MPH). I remember trying to lift my head once to see the speedometer, and feeling the incredible buffeting that said "put your head back down dummy!" The point being, the fairing and helmet were working really well together, and placed me in a nice low pressure pocket under the air stream. Hopefully that will play out on Scrape. _If_ the tank shell is in the way of really tucking into position, I can pour a foam copy, using the Sporty tank as a mold, and carve it until the helmet fits into the pocket, then create a carbon race shell from that plug...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm not really a New Year's Resolution type of person, but I use Jan 1st as a point to look back, review my progress (or lack thereof), and set goals for the next year.

Circa one year ago, I packed up my stuff and moved out of CIF; then took Scrape to Great Machine to get it ready for an invite to the Motorcycle Hall of Fame. After thrashing for weeks, I stopped and took a look and saw this sitting on the Great Machine shop floor. It was just a heavily modded Kawasaki Ninja, and I remembered telling Nic that everything I had been doing at CIF was probably 10-15% of my current ability. The same stuff I had been doing in the 80s... Here again, was that 10-15%, staring me in the face; ready to go to _the_ Motorcycle Hall of Fame to represent _me_.










This is how I responded.  The culprit was that 80's Ninja frame. I'm the guy who builds vehicles from scratch, and here I was tacking mild custom parts on an old Ninja, trying to make people believe something special had taken place. Sleight of hand. I started doing it at CIF to make Alex's special guests go, "Wow!" That is not who I am. 












Now, I can honestly call it _my_ bike. The suspension is ZX6 and GPZ900A, front and rear (respectively), but "the bike" is _Todd_. I told Nic that this incarnation probably represents ~30% of my ability, and I am trying to convince myself (on a daily basis) that that is okay; for now...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have simplified my plans for the battery box cover plates, to get them done on my terms, faster. Instead of the whole casting process, which would depend on others, I am going to have a piece of aluminum plate anodized or plated, or just use a chemical process to achieve a brownish bronze-like appearance, and engrave them leaving aluminum wiring diagrams - mirrored for opposite sides of the box. I eliminated the text, just to allow faster engraving with a beefier tool. I still plan to have the Bat-T logos cast, but those can be added at anytime. I can even use laser-cut acrylic parts until I get the casting done. Since they're small, I might even go for real pewter castings on those. This is the best approximation of the bronze-like surface the cheap CAM software I used to test this could manage.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I slotted the box and the steel stud plates, and made the four nut tabs. The tabs will be welded to the stud plates (on the inside of the box), then drilled and tapped for the clamping bolts (represented by the two drill bits shown here). Again, the point of all this is a fire and vibration proof method of locking the box to the plate, that adds an element of mechanical sophistication to the whole. 













After the tabs are welded, drilled, and threaded, I will trim them and radius the outer edges. I'll probably have the stud plates nickel plated later, and the clamping bolts will be stainless, so nice contrasting metals against the aluminum box assembly. My obsession runs deep...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Digital Scrape Girl taking the latest version of the bike for a spin (...I needed to see what it looks like with someone riding it).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks as if her forearms are doing a little Plastic Man action to reach the bars with that riding position


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Looks as if her forearms are doing a little Plastic Man action to reach the bars with that riding position



That's also her outstretched hand , with fingers extending past and below the grip (wasn't worth the time and effort to curl them around it), so it makes her arm look long. She's my height (5'4"), with arms almost, but not quite, as long as mine.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bumping - I hate posting pic updates on an page that's about to flip...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I welded the tabs to the stud plates, reassembled everything, and then hit them with a little machinist's blue.












I twirled an end mill by hand to mark the spreader bars.












That let me determine how deeply I needed to notch the spreader bars for clamping bolt clearance.












I used a 0.500", ball-nosed, end mill to create the notches.












Done.












Then I drilled and tapped the tabs, and reassembled everything - first time new box has been bolted together. I ran out of time, so cropping and rounding the tabs has to wait for next time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's a tab, shortened and rounded a bit. I'll do a little more finish work on them, and a lot on the spreader bars later.












I drilled and tapped the upper rear frame mount for the battery box, cut the tubing notch on the Bridegport, and then roughed in the outside profile with the band saw and belt sander. I need the battery box rear plate finsihed to determine the final shape for the frame mounts.













I'll hand finish the bottom of the notch to match the angle of the tube, with the die grinder, and get this welded on next time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt stitched the upper mount to Scrape's frame.












As you can see I went pretty radical on the angle. The point is to add an, aggressive, contrasting, forward rake to balance the laid back, rearward-sloped, American cruiser styling; just to make the point clear that this puppy is about getting from point A to point B, as quickly as possible. Speed in motion, without breaking a sweat. 












My _sophisticated machine_ is happening. It feels really good to make it to this point. When the box is mounted, it's just a matter of reinstalling the power electronics and Scrape is back in action. 












Next the lower mounts. I developed a pattern, drilled the frame mount holes, and plotted the location for cutting the notch on the Bridgeport.










To be continued...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut a starter hole on the Bridgeport, roughed out the profile on the bandsaw, then carefully sculpted the notch to fit the lower frame rails - by hand, the old fashioned way, with carbide cutters in the electric die grinder.











This was actually a fun notch to do.











Ready to be stitched in. Next we'll start on new motor drive assembly.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a little Christmas break, I disassembled the bike and Curt welded the lower box mounts on yesterday; pics of that soon...

In the meantime, I am thinking about doing this for the power electronics plate. Why not make the entire power electronics plate the heat sink, replacing the cheapo upcycled piece the controller is currently bolted to, and then mount all the rest of the electronics to that?  The fins would be machined into a piece of 0.7500" plate, the profile and mounting holes cut, a spot machined flat for the controller, and each piece that mounts to the plate. For kicks, I am thinking using little polycarbonate domes over each component, to provide shock protection  and an interesting aesthetic - until I get around to building a new controller...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to start tying up some of the loose ends to get Scrape back together. First up, the rear master cylinder. Way back, when I was still working out of my studio in CIF, some of you guys asked me if there was a way I could clean up the rear brakes, because the other side just had a foot peg. I didn't want to eliminate the rear master cylinder and pedal setup, and link the brakes, because being able to control front and rear brakes independently can be critical on a race bike; nor did I want to do a left hand lever, because I wanted riding and racing Scrape to be second nature, to a conventional biker, like myself. I had just done some clean up work, and posted this pic.










Then after leaving CIF, and starting to work on Scrape at Great Machine, I cleaned up the linkage a bit - better but not quite, right? I was still wasting time, messing around with that old Ninja frame back then. 













The new TPD frame presented me with the option to completely hide the brake master cylinder and linkage, behind the motor. First, I whittled out a master cylinder mount. I used heavy 0.1875" steel plate, but removed most of it. I drilled and tapped the mounting holes, bored the big lightening hole on the Bridgeport, cut the outside profile on the bandsaw and hand finished the edges on the belt sander.













Then added a little twist to fit the master cylinder between the motor and swingarm, and angle it towards the preferred pedal location.












I tried to pack all of Scrape's parts and pieces as carefully as possible when it left Great Machine the last time and headed back to the storage unit but, of course, I am missing stuff... One item was the pedal pivot shaft but, being in a machine shop, it was quicker to just turn a new one than waste time looking for it. Again, hole and radius on the Bridgeport, then bandsaw and belt sander to shape the mount.












Ready. I think new pivot shaft is nicer than the one I hacked out of the Ninja footpeg bracket. 












Tacked in place.













The new setup - just a pedal. I still have to make the rocker arm and pivot shaft, but it's working out even better than I had planned, so far. Pedal pushes one end of the rocker arm down, and the other end shoves the master cylinder push rod up.










I will admit to having done one thing I often mock engineers for - the motor has to be removed, or at least moved, to remove and replace the rear brake master cylinder - BUT - I did it consciously, with an actual clue of what it will take to work on it; for the sake of my beloved aesthetics.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Awesome Todd. PS I don't think I've ever NEEDED to remove a master cylinder, as long as good fluid is maintained... So not a worry in my opinion. You'll fry or replace that motor long before and can just service it at the same time


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Awesome Todd. PS I don't think I've ever NEEDED to remove a master cylinder, as long as good fluid is maintained... So not a worry in my opinion. You'll fry or replace that motor long before and can just service it at the same time


Thanks Tyler. That's what I told Curt. I've replaced them on a few cars/trucks I've owned, but never the rear one on a motorcycle. In any case, moving the motor is a few bolts, and it's only ~50lbs. I don't even think I'd have to pull the chain. Just support it with a jack, remove the bolts, and lower enough to get to the lower master cylinder bolt. Even in a pinch, at the track, I could swap the master cylinder in less than 30 minutes...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I will admit to having done one thing I often mock engineers for - the motor has to be removed, or at least moved, to remove and replace the rear brake master cylinder - BUT - I did it consciously, with an actual clue of what it will take to work on it; for the sake of my beloved aesthetics.


I always figured that a motor is easier then an ICE to remove anyway. Only 4 cable terminals and then the mounting bolts. No fluids or plumbing to leak everywhere. 

On my truck I am expecting that the motor will be relatively easy to pull out, just UJ bolts, mounting bolts and cables.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I always figured that a motor is easier then an ICE to remove anyway. Only 4 cable terminals and then the mounting bolts. No fluids or plumbing to leak everywhere.
> 
> On my truck I am expecting that the motor will be relatively easy to pull out, just UJ bolts, mounting bolts and cables.


Exactly. 

Thanks guys, for making me feel good about my obsession with looking good! 


Today, I went to Great Machine and picked Scrape up - stuffed it back in the cavernous trunk of my ginormous driver, for now. They're cleaning up and preparing for some new opportunities there and needed the space I was occupying cleared out. I had the option of putting it upstairs, in the mezzanine, and keeping it there but I opted to take it with me. The goal from here is to get it back together and start riding it, soon. To get it in the mezzanine, and back down to the shop floor, requires using the forklift. That would discourage me from even working on it, let alone going for an occasional joyride when it's back together.

Curt and I made enough progress that I can actually just take the parts I need to work on to the shop now, instead of keeping the whole bike there. Next up, I will take the frame, rear brake setup, and seat, to the shop and finish those and the welding; then she goes back together for a little test riding, back apart for some detailing, and back together again for the Easyrider's show...


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## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

Have you checked on the chassis certification procedure for a home built frame?
If you ever want to take it down a drag strip,it's something you might want to look in to.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

johnjcbs said:


> Have you checked on the chassis certification procedure for a home built frame?
> If you ever want to take it down a drag strip,it's something you might want to look in to.


Yup. Since moving my racing goals to Scrape, all decisions have been made with certification in mind; and NHRA and SCTA rulebooks in hand. It's not really even an issue until you start going fast enough (sub 11-sec 1/4-mile, over 100-120mph), but Scrape is being designed and built with 8-sec 1320ft and 200+mph 5280ft goals in mind. I plan to venture down the drag strip, the mile track, and possibly even hobble around a road course for the fun of it - _hopefully_ all this year...  (Seems like I've heard that song before.)

Technically, it's not a home-built, as my company is a professional design firm, and my sponsor (Great Machine) is a full-service machine shop. I only mention that because being a professionally developed frame (and bike) tends to ease the concerns of the tech inspectors. Regardless, whatever they choose to poke at should easily stand up to scrutiny.



It's so cold here right now that I haven't done anything, since stuffing Scrape in the trunk. The frame is actually in the garage at home, but I haven't had the urge to go out and even look at it. I'll have to give myself a kick in the... and get moving on it soon though. I would like to have it together well before the Easyrider's show (Feb 21st & 22nd)...


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Are you planning on powdercoating the frame, or just painting it?
I look forward to seeing it finally together, especially without the battery boxes holding the bike upright.
Kickstand or separate bike stand? Gotta go with a kickstand, and one that either hides away or is integrated into the design cleanly...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Vhclbldr said:


> Are you planning on powdercoating the frame, or just painting it?...


Probably powdercoat, eventually. Initially, I plan to leave it bare metal, as we'll be adding more stuff and modifying it for a while. I'll be using bare metal protectant on it until it's finally ready to be coated. 







Vhclbldr said:


> ...I look forward to seeing it finally together, especially without the battery boxes holding the bike upright.
> 
> Kickstand or separate bike stand? Gotta go with a kickstand, and one that either hides away or is integrated into the design cleanly...


Actually, the bike has been on the kickstand in all those pics!  The battery box was just blocked up off the floor to figure out the mounts.

I must have done my job well.  There are pics of it in this thread. I'll dig them out and repost when I get a chance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Progress should resume soon. I've been busy with a client's project, and with another in-house project that's coming up.

I've changed Scrape's itinerary a bit: I talked to Ric (from the Motorcycle Hall of Fame) recently and promised him that Scrape will be on its way there as soon as I can get it back together. That show ends in March, I would like for Scrape to have been there for at least a couple weeks.

As the plan was last year, they will let me pull the bike for a couple days to hit the Easyrider's show in February, and bring it back for the remainder of the show.

That show, named "2 Wheels + Motor", packs up and goes to the National Motorcycle Museum in Iowa in May; they really want Scrape to go with it. I am seriously considering it, and probably leaning towards letting it go. It's like sending my kid off to college.  On one hand, it's an helluva opportunity; on the other, I wouldn't have access to it for a full year! 

In that time, I would be busy making parts and working on deals to make it fast, so development really wouldn't stop...


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

*Kick Stand*

I just looked back through the pics and spotted the kickstand in the second pic of post #1103. You are right, it does blend in well (and keeps the bike very upright)!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Vhclbldr said:


> I just looked back through the pics and spotted the kickstand in the second pic of post #1103. You are right, it does blend in well (and keeps the bike very upright)!



I gave it the shove test, shortening it a tiny bit at a time until it took a significant effort to move it past the tipping point. So far, it hasn't been knocked down. Factory bikes have quite a bit of lean on the stand, to be idiot proof - custom bikes are normally handled by experienced/picky people, and not exposed to as much danger. 

Sorry I forgot to follow up on this. Here's a good shot:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to bite the freakin bullet and make my carbon tank shell. Why come this far and stick some cheap aftermarket Sporty tank shell on the bike?  I've made the necessary adjustments in CAD, did the CAM processsing, and plan to cut the foam core this weekend, or next week. I can't wait to see the bike with the tank on it - even in black, painted, foam...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Haha I almost asked how you would seal the tank to prevent fuel leaking... I'll fetch my coat!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Haha I almost asked how you would seal the tank to prevent fuel leaking... I'll fetch my coat!





Wish me luck today. The Blue Jackets are hosting the NHL All-Star Game, so pretty much all of downtown Columbus is primed and ready for All-Star Weekend starting today. RedBull is scheduled to visit the Columbus Idea Foundry today - I will be there working on Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The RedBull visit wasn't what I was hoping for. The guy was just a regional sales rep, but he did drop off six cases of the stuff, and who knows who he might know and share what he saw with. Also, Alex told me 3-4pm, so I got there around noon-ish, but the guy was already there and halfway through the grand tour. 

Anyway, since I was there, with Scrape, why not get something done? I decided to go for the tank shell, and fired up my old friend - Mr ShopBot.












Eight hours, and a lot of RedBull, later I had this. Crappy pic because my pocket camera didn't like the lighting, and I was too tired-wired to keep playing with it. This pic doesn't show it very well, but I left a center ridge to build a matching baseball seam like the fairing has. Soooo glad I decided to do my own tank shell, instead of the plain Sporty tank.










I also used the vertical bandsaw to trim the seat stays down to a single stem. I know I could fabricate my own, from scratch, but there's something I like about these reclaimed (from the Ninja foot rest brackets) parts that I want to explore. Next, I'll turn bolt bosses for the bottom, and make the frame mounts, so everyone else can see what I see in my head...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Starting the mud work - first application of joint compound. I love the shape of this little thing, and and soooo happy that I decided to roll my own...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I can't seem to warm up to the idea of Scrape being in Iowa, at the National Motorcycle Museum, for a year, so we've decided that imitation is, indeed, the sincerest form of flattery - Squat is about to become a Scrape impersonator, and spend a year in Iowa...

I have been developing Scrape with an eye towards an eventual limited production run of these bikes, so this is a natural step in that process. Each production bike will be custom tailored to fit the client, so this will be the first working test of that concept - aimed at an hypothetical client. All the many ideas that I threw at Scrape were, in part, to explore the flexibility of the platform. With its mission to represent Scrape and TPD in the museum, Squat won't vary much from Scrape's basic design, but will be free from the racing mandate, and more oriented towards aesthetics and tech.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today, I sanded the first coat of mud on the tank shell and re-wiped it. So far, so very good on that. I didn't take pics because it looks pretty much like the last pic I posted. 

Then, I turned my attention to metal. I turned the pivot for the rear brake rocker arm. I just have to notch it to fit the frame, and tap it for the pinch bolt. I made, basically, a shoulder nut instead of a shoulder screw to match the design of the Kawasaki factory pedal pivot (which I duplicated, because I lost the original one).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Being me, and even having the skill to do it, I couldn't settle for carving that corner out by hand, when the machine could so easily make an exact duplicate of the other side... So, I fired up the ShopBot and made one. 












I decided to experiment and stick this little rascal in place with joint compound, since it's so small and light. I'll see just how well it worked when I pull the core out of the carbon fiber part. This core will likely be wrecked in the process, but this will be a nice little experiment to see how well this works, for future reference. Second sanding, and third wipe, done.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I put a few hours into Scrape's frame today. I notched and welded the pivot for the rear brake rocker arm in, then did a bunch of cutting, welding, and grinding, to remove old brackets, fill holes and gouges, and smooth it all out. I'm going to try to find a local place to glass bead it, and try to put the bike together by the weekend. If no one can do it in time, I can go over it with wire brushes on the right angle and die grinders.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to wire brush Scrape's frame, rather than having it blasted, and dove in today planning to spend a couple zen-like hours inside that ear-muffed and face-sheilded world. About thirty minutes in, I noticed that I could _literally_ see the steel I was detailing through what was supposed to be a spinning bundle of wires. Evidently, Harbor Freight was a bit liberal in the claimed capability of this - right-angle grinder specific - wire brush to spin to 10K RPM!  I looked like a metallic porcupine! 








I did get a lot of the surface work done, using a small right angle grinder and an orbital sander. This is just the beginning of me obsessing over the details on this frame. At some point, sfter Hall of Fame, I intend to tear the bike down again and really go nuts detailing the metal work. That Ferrari red frame could happen one day, but for the time-being Scrape will remain a raw, bare metal, race bike.




I turned my attention to the tank and finally worked out the CAD drawing for the tank shell back plates. I probably should have used MDF, but I wanted to experiment with doing this with foam-core project board. When I cut these I purposely made the ShopBot leave the radius of the ball-nosed router bit for the ball seam. I had to scale the outline up by .500" to match this shape.












I hot glued nylon rope to the fairing and used joint compound to roll the surface up to the rope. I wasn't happy with the process, so I decided to use something a little firmer, but not too rigid (hence the project board). Eventually, both parts are going to be fine-tuned and detailed with conventional autobody filler over the carbon, then molds pulled, and _perfect_ parts laid up. In the meantime, I am using these development plugs as test beds for different techniques.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt and I made the seat a permanent fixture on the new frame. I have a lot of detail work left to do in this, but it is playing out in real life exactly how I saw it in my head.












I turned the aluminum bolt bosses on the lathe, at Great Machine, then scratched out a quick pattern for the frame mounts on 0.1875" steel plate, drilled them, cut them on the vertical bandsaw, we profiled them, and Curt stitched it all together. The screws will be flat, socket, heads. I plan to turn the hex off a couple acorn nuts and let Curt stitch them to the backside of the frame mounts; so it should provide a complementary aesthetic to the two spearheaded caps below the seat.












The perch, from which I will blur the world around me...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I turned the pivot for the rear brake rocker arm today. Just a couple pieces of scrape metal, and a little lathe time. I will eventually turn a new bushing, from 841, oil-impregnated, bronze; for the time-being this recycled scrap drawer piece will suffice. I meant to snap a pic of the two individual pieces, but got into what I was doing and had them pressed together before I caught myself. 












Now to figure out what I want to do for the arms, whittle (mill) something out, and weld it up. I just felt like doing some good ol' fashion manual machining and hand fabrication on this part.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Also decided to bite the bullet and just purchase the Harbor Freight carrier. What I started building was going to be way too heavy, and time-consuming. This carrier has a pretty nice extruded/fabricated aluminum track, and we'd have spent more in materials than it cost to just buy the thing.  It _will_ receive some TPD style reinforcing, tweaks, and customization, over time...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's frame is almost ready to start assembly. I have a few more places to detail and wire brush. Here, it has a light coat of WD40 wiped on and then back off with a clean paper towel - still need to get a can of metal prep to keep it like this. Tuesday it goes back together for CIF's big VIP event, then possibly Easyrider's this coming weekend, and into the Hall of Fame either this week or after Easyrider's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Mental and physical burnout set in, so I left the frame as it was in the last photo, and set my sights on getting the tank shell in carbon, and the bike put together for CIF's VIP event (yesterday). Nic was absolutely invaluable in the long process of getting this carbon done, just diving in and pushing through to the end. This is going to be the look of Scrape's carbon fiber - custom-length, hand-cut, chopped strand. This is a test of the concept, process, and aesthetic. The final version will have this aesthetic trapped under clear gelcoat, and automotive satin clear topcoat. 













Here's Scrape, minus the battery box side plates and motor drive. (The aforementioned mental and physical burnout was in full effect by this point.) Alex gave us a premium location, and the large screen TV behind the bike to play a little informational slideshow. Scrape was well-received and I feel pretty darn good right now!  Next stop: Motorcycle Hall of Fame...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, just my personal opinion and impression, but that doesn't go with the ethos or the bike design. It has no plan or engineering to it and just looks like chaos. Expensive and exotic chaos. My thought is it should be woven ordered strand that you lay it up with and looks engineered then.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, just my personal opinion and impression, but that doesn't go with the ethos or the bike design. It has no plan or engineering to it and just looks like chaos. Expensive and exotic chaos. My thought is it should be woven ordered strand that you lay it up with and looks engineered then.


I do get what your saying but, interestingly, and as planned, the public effect and perception is almost the polar opposite. The expensive and exotic element comes through very loudly and clearly, so much so that people don't even comment on the woven cloth fairing in front of it - and everyone wants to know how it was done, because it looks nothing like what they're used to seeing in carbon products. It's actually more time-consuming than normal cloth lay-up, and somehow that comes across to the trained eye and the "layman".

The longest conversation I had about it was with a mechanical engineer who went on, at length, about how he liked it and asked tons of questions about how it was/will be done.

In other (less long-winded) words - it's working, perfectly.

Tyler, I think you'll see some carbon stuff you might like on Squat. Nic and I have been experimenting with uni-directional on it. The final decision is his, but I think he's leaning heavily towards it...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I think it might be difficult for viewers to be able to envision the final look of the "gas" tank. The final look still has a lot of options, and at this point it could be easy for somebody who does not see your final vision to just see some random rough fiberglass that needs to be finished and painted. I am looking forward to seeing how it looks when finished...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Maybe I am a "bird brain", but the tank looks like it is "Nesting" nicely into place. I'll have to ask "Robin" what she thinks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I think it might be difficult for viewers to be able to envision the final look of the "gas" tank. The final look still has a lot of options, and at this point it could be easy for somebody who does not see your final vision to just see some random rough fiberglass that needs to be finished and painted. I am looking forward to seeing how it looks when finished...





ken will said:


> Maybe I am a "bird brain", but the tank looks like it is "Nesting" nicely into place. I'll have to ask "Robin" what she thinks.


 I'll get a couple more layers and some clear over it after it comes back from the Hall of Fame. In the meantime, I am enjoying the chatter it invokes...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape is technically in the Hall of Fame. It should be on display in the "2 Wheels + Motor" show today, and pics on their website soon. All this wasn't without issues though. The bike carrier on the cop car worked excellently, got the little tyke there safely, and without incident - _but_ - Todd managed to lock the keys in the car, and the spare key I always keep in my pocket wasn't in there. My car is _still_ at the Hall of Fame (looonnnng AAA wait/story and a snow storm...)

Anyway, (hopefully) going back today to get it all setup today. Here's a snapshot of a photo shoot I arranged Thursday, at CIF, until I get some pics from in the museum. Ric needed some good pics for a magazine article he did for the show's coming trip to Iowa.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

If it every goes to Madame Tussauds in Vegas; a life size Summer Glau in her Terminator outfit, would fit just right on the bike.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Todd managed to lock the keys in the car, and the spare key I always keep in my pocket wasn't in there. My car is _still_ at the Hall of Fame (looonnnng AAA wait/story and a snow storm...)


Do you not know how to break into your own car yet?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Do you not know how to break into your own car yet?



Of course I do, but it was around 8-degrees outside - doesn't take much at those temps to turn a full safety glass window into hundreds of little pieces. 

If roadside assistance breaks it I get a new window free


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> If it every goes to Madame Tussauds in Vegas; a life size Summer Glau in her Terminator outfit, would fit just right on the bike.


How about we skip Madame Tussauds and just put the real Summer Glau on Scrape, in anything she chooses (or not) to wear...

Now, _that_ would be a Scrape Girl...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Of course I do, but it was around 8-degrees outside - doesn't take much at those temps to turn a full safety glass window into hundreds of little pieces.
> 
> If roadside assistance breaks it I get a new window free


Good point!
I forget that you are all living in the Arctic nowadays.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Good point!
> I forget that you are all living in the Arctic nowadays.


In the blink of an eye, it will transform from the Artic to the Equator, with 90-100+ temps and humidity a guy like me can joyfully swim through. 

One thing I'll give Columbus, is winter (even a bad one) is like a short sneeze here, and it's back to baking and steaming (which I love).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Billy has a great eye and feel for capturing the essence of the bike so I took one of his shots, that was a little grainy, and attempted to produce an antique-ish new header pic for Scrape's section of the website. I decided to just relax and unwind yesterday and didn't go back to the Hall of Fame, nor have I seen Billy's shots from the day yet, so pics of the bike going to and being in the museum still to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, I poked my head in the Hall of Fame for the first time, since the night we dropped Scrape off. It was the first time I had seen it in the actual exhibit. I wanted to, mentally, unwind and go in there fresh, to get some perspective on the opportunity. I did a full, self-guided, tour, taking in the entire museum, before finally landing in the 2 Wheels + Motor show, near the end of my tour. Pretty awesome. 

I plan to return soon, with Billy, to get good quality pics of Scrape in the show, but snapped some (admittedly poor quality - my camera is apparently dying) teaser pics to use as promo material on my website.










That's AJ's art hanging directly over Scrape; the piece that actually started this (Hall of Fame) journey, commissioned by Ric, and patiently waiting on Scrape to roll in under it for the last year.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very cool Todd! Congrats


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very cool Todd! Congrats


Thanks Tyler! 

The last year was an helluva journey to get here. Last year, this time, after fighting like mad for two months to get Scrape 2.0 ready for Easyriders and Hall of Fame, I pulled the plug on the whole effort (almost exactly a year before the date it actually went in the museum), explaining that what was sitting on Great Machine's floor (after all that work) was NOT representative of "me", and that there was no way on Earth I was letting it go there with my name on it.

This pic (taken at Great Machine) is dated 02.24.2014 










Of course, I am nowhere near satisfied with what's on the Hall of Fame floor right now, but it is a decent enough representation that I pulled the other plug and said, "it goes _now_!" Curt was nudging me to put in the last two days of work and hit Easyriders first, but I just stopped cold in my tracks, again, _put the parts together_ this time, and sent the little tyke on its way...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When I get Scrape back, at the end of this month, my main two priorities are getting it running again, and continuing to fine-tune and detail every single piece of it. The first hurdle is electrical. I have to create a new motor drive plate, and Curt and I are going to try to make the wiring disappear, as much as is possible. I still like the idea of the main drive unit plate being the heat sink, so I decided to lay the components out on a piece of project board today. To my surprise, I found that I can group most of the components on the opposite side of the controller, and cover it with a matching plastic cover, for environmental and shock protection. The exact locations of the components will be determined by how the actual cables and wires flow through and around the panel.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That looks good Todd. When I started reading the post I was worried you were going to hide the soul of scrape from view. That was the original plan, to showcase the technology. Looks promising


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> That looks good Todd. When I started reading the post I was worried you were going to hide the soul of scrape from view. That was the original plan, to showcase the technology. Looks promising


I have to confess that the way forward isn't quite as transparent as the original plan. Remember all those finned motor drive enclosures a while back? Those are eventually going to happen. Over time, I started focusing more on showing the main components, and the _trace_ of the power through them. So, instead of exposed wires and circuitry, more insect-like, if you will. 

For this version, I am going to create a cover over the contactors, fuses, etc, that will likely match the controller housing. So on each side of the bike, there will be a rectangular box, set into the finned, organic, heat sink. There will be little to no visible wiring. The point of the cover is safety, and tidiness. I used to cringe when people, especially kids, went near Scrape because one little finger in the wrong place in that maze of colored wires...


This shouldn't be on the bike too long. I am using the 48v setup to begin testing, to develop a baseline to grow from. The performance with this low power setup before was very surprising, so I want to maximize that, and then begin turning the dial up. From 20 to 300hp.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ok that makes sense. Why would you not still make the cover from perspex or clear material and strategically paint it to show the bits but represent symmetry with the controller n


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Ok that makes sense. Why would you not still make the cover from perspex or clear material and strategically paint it to show the bits but represent symmetry with the controller n


I just forgot to mention that, specifically. Matching does mean that the cover (at least the outer panel) will be clear or smoked plastic. The outer and end panels of the little Alltrax controller are, laser-engraved, smoked acrylic. You will be able to see the contactors, fuses, etc, if you look for them -just not so _in your face_...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds ideal then. I look forward.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been enjoying my little break, but I am also conscious of the fact that Scrape will be back in a couple weeks. The number one priority when it returns is making it run again. In that process, I will also incorporate the second highest priority - making everything as neat and refined as possible. I have been mentally chewing on the idea of making my own throttle for a while, and decided to jump in. I like the million-cycle engineering, buttery smoothness, and reliability, of the Honda TPS sensor I've been using, but not the Ninja throttle, cable, and cut-down Honda throttle body. For this first prototype, I am still going to use a piece of the Honda throttle body, along with some machined/fabricated pieces, and TIG work. If I like the final result, I will reverse engineer this piece to be machined from billet, for future bikes.

This will be the section that clamps on the handlebar.











The necessary part of the Honda TB will be fit and welded to this, and a couple/few more pieces for the throttle grip, and gear or belt drive to the sensor. My goal is more expressed mechanical function, through design. I, obviously, accidentally broke the housing but that's nothing a few dabs of filler can't remedy.  That little cup houses a return spring, a nice boss that I can bore for a sleeve bearing later, and of course the flange for the TPS sensor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lamborghini's chopped strand carbon. A little similar, but their process is much more high-tech. The parts are formed under high pressure and, according to them, are pretty expensive (compared to their conventional carbon). They are very strong and, as I claimed, no less of an engineering feat. I think they're also becoming popular...









Mine (unfinished) for comparison:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ric messaged me yesterday - the show is over, he's starting to pack it up for Iowa, and Scrape is being released back into my custody.  I expect to pick it up by the weekend. Now the focus is making it run and starting to log some seat time. Just in time, because the weather is breaking here and the _fever_ is setting in...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Hey, Todd! It's been a month with no updates. Is everything okay?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> Hey, Todd! It's been a month with no updates. Is everything okay?


Thanks for checking on us, and sorry the updates have been lacking! 

After getting Scrape home from the Hall of Fame, I brought it home, stuck it in the garage, and realized that I really, really, needed to catch my breath. The long year to get what is essentially Scrape 3.0 together, the hard push to get it together for CIF's event and the Hall of Fame, and then the short stay in the museum, left me drained. I thought the museum stay would be enough time to recharge _my_ batteries but it actually pulled more (mental) energy out of me. When I picked Scrape up, they had more requests for sending Squat to the National Museum, which added more mental energy drain to the whole experience.

Nic and I have been - slowly - working on Squat, and fine-tuning our strategy for continuing development of this concept. I think we're going to deny the request to send Squat to the National Museum, and get back to business. Long story-short, our goals don't align well enough with their needs.

I'm itching to ride, so I should start on getting Scrape wired up and on the road soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bumping sorry. 

Drum roll..................................................


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I hate posting new pics on an expiring page, so I bumped...

Since Hall of Fame, Scrape has been resting quietly in the garage, waiting for us to make some decisions; and, unfortunately, picking up more and more surface rust.

Anyway, after lots of long, long, meetings; after a LOT of soul-searching; after countless hours of CAD work and sketching, and more CAD work; we've made some hard decisions about the little racebike's future. The future of our flagship project is more secure than ever. I'll dig into the details of our plans, going forward, more over time but just as a heads-up, there are some changes coming soon that many here will not like. They were hard decisions to make, but ultimately the right ones for us. If you can bear with the bad and the ugly, good things will follow with the electric drive system, hopefully sooner than later.

The actual physical changes were set into motion this week. Parts are starting to trickle in, and fabrication is underway. First up, Scrape is getting six more inches of wheelbase, to help handle the insane levels of power planned. I made a brace from aluminum angle, Curt stitched it in place, and I cut the old Ninja's eccentric adjusters off, then squared the ends on the mill. Next I will develop a pair of really stout, but lightweight, conventional, adjusters that will simultaneously stretch the wheelbase, and strengthen the arm. There's a decent 190/50ZR17 Michelin Pilot radial waiting to fill up the additional real estate, with a matching 120/60ZR front tire; as soon as I snag a couple new rims.










This is actually Squat's (identical) swingarm. When the modifications are complete, this goes on Scrape, and Scrape's arm goes to Squat (and eventually its wheels and tires). Squat will also get Scrape's battery box, as we have something a little different coming for Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to bite the bullet and fess up. All I can do is apologize in advance guys, but some changes are happening with Scrape that a lot of this community will probably hate. In a sentence, it's going ethanol-electric hybrid.

This decision is the result of an incomprehensible amount of research, planning, thinking, and discussion. It's just where we need to go, for the future of the company. The upside is the electric drive system will be just as powerful as we have been planning, or more, and much more sophisticated. There will be both DC and AC motors, working in conjunction with a big turbo-ethanol V-twin engine. We’re seeking a combined 500-600hp. As you can see in the lower left corner of the pic, we already have the V-twin, and are in the process of making the mounts for it. That’s actually Squat’s frame hanging on the engine, to get an idea how it fits and looks. It will be farther forward in Scrape’s frame, because of the larger radius lower rail bends. 

How it works: The DC motor replaces the conventional transmission. The bike will be able to operate in all-electric mode, or combined fuel-electric hybrid mode, but probably never via 100% internal combustion. The AC motor will replace the 12v _alternator_ the v-twin originally had, always spinning with the V-twin, and used to start the engine and charge the battery pack. One speed, from 0 to 200+mph is the goal. The DC motor provides the low end torque to start moving, and the boosted V-twin the horsepower to continue that escalation until someone or something cries, “Uncle!”









Hope you don't hate me. 

As I have mentioned couple times here and there, Squat gets Scrape's battery box, and will remain 100% all-electric, with more normal performance and range goals - basically like a nice middleweight, sport-touring, bike.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No hate, but it looks like a complete cluster F. Hybrids are completely uninteresting to me since they are kludgey attempts to marry two opposing technologies. Ah well, I guess this is the end of being strung along for years thinking you might actually build a performance EV


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Todd, less art - more engineering. Then you will get something finished.


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## Tamber (Jun 29, 2010)

Certainly going to be interesting to see how the tech to handle the hybrid comes together. (Engine controlled/throttled by the motor controller to produce electricity on demand?)

I, for one, am going to be peering very closely at how you manage the two in a way that makes them work smoothly together.  But, then, I'm strange like that; I sit in the camp that believes that an electric power-train is the future... but that the prime mover in that power-train could be various different options, depending on what the vehicle needs to do. But that's neither here, nor there...

Sometimes, it's more about the journey than the destination. And, sure, some people will hate the direction the journey is currently going in; but, hey, it's your journey, right?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, do you plan to put that ethanol motor's power through the DC shaft? Will the ethanol motor be running at the start? How will the DC start off and ICE take over? Seems complicated but with potential. I don't see any battery to feed the DC unless it's low voltage to start off. Any controller or just short the battery directly? Doubt that Michelin will cope!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> No hate, but it looks like a complete cluster F. Hybrids are completely uninteresting to me since they are kludgey attempts to marry two opposing technologies...


I've thought, for a while, that they are two complementary technologies, that actually work very well together - reading the reviews on the latest round of hypercars (La Ferrari, 918 Spyder, P1) confirmed it for me. I love the combination. Love it, love it, love it. 




JRP3 said:


> ...Ah well, I guess this is the end of being strung along for years thinking you might actually build a performance EV


I might actually build a performance *vehicle* - that has been my personal quest, for the past decade, literally.  Electric will definitely be a part, but maybe not the whole...




Tamber said:


> ...Sometimes, it's more about the journey than the destination. And, sure, some people will hate the direction the journey is currently going in; but, hey, it's your journey, right?


What ^he^ said. I have, as mentioned, been on this particular journey since 2005. I cannot put into words how awesome this experience has been, and what it has meant to me. The knowledge and skills I had to acquire, and the person I had to become, to even attempt it is worth more than any single tangible result that may come from it. I also have a team of engineering and design students that interned with me that are out there, somewhere, carrying a piece of that flame on in their own journeys. I hope my journey takes me along that path again; it was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done in my life.

Color me humbled. ...and appreciative beyond the ability of words to convey. 






Tamber said:


> Certainly going to be interesting to see how the tech to handle the hybrid comes together. (Engine controlled/throttled by the motor controller to produce electricity on demand?)
> 
> I, for one, am going to be peering very closely at how you manage the two in a way that makes them work smoothly together...


Grossly oversimplified, the idea is that the DC motor is the primary power source. It moves the bike from a standstill, and provides the majority of the acceleration needed or requested. The turbo V-twin phases in somewhere in the meat of the DC motor's torque curve, and is at full boil before the DC motor has reached the end of the plateau. Imagine the awesome acceleration of the DC drag vehicles, with a sort of afterburner that spools up and starts pulling just before the DC motor levels out.

The majority of that is component tuning. We kind of know what to expect with 2000 amps in a given DC motor, with a given mass to move. From there it's just a matter of Curt and I doing our homework and building and tuning a turbo engine to come into its own at the right time. Each one has one dedicated function, and our job is just to get them to cross at the right point. Remember this is primarily a straight-line race bike. It's prime directive is to get from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible.

The AC motor has two functions: to start the V-twin, and to charge the pack. It only needs enough torque to crank the engine, and only has to output enough current to charge a battery pack. Maximum current in would be for very short bursts, and sustained current out would be relatively low. That all really simplifies the control issues for this motor. I am thinking seriously about a Huebner kit.

As for how all this wizardry will work together - initially very simply. I want a lot of manual control initially, and will be running everything at very low power levels. I want to manually phase the V-twin in at different speeds, and in different conditions; and manually see that the battery pack needs a charge and put the AC motor to work. We'll log all this data, and slowly build more power, and accumulate more data. Eventually, all of this data will be used to develop a master controller that monitors all three and decides what each should be doing and when, based on rider input and sensor feedback. For a while I will just have a bunch of buttons, in place of a clutch lever, for my left hand to play with. If the left hand gets overwhelmed, I also have a left foot that is just along for the ride.

Mechanically, drive-by-wire for the throttle, and a clutch to engage/disengage the V-twin from the main drive system. A drive-by-wire throttle body is just a stepper motor that moves to a certain position based on throttle position. Initially, I'll see what happens when both get the same signal, and then possibly try timed circuits, etc. All that data will, again, be collected for a future master controller. The tuning possible in electric motor controllers and automotive ECUs actually provides enough control to make a straight-line race vehicle work fine - the rest is mostly just because I like to play. 

The clutch will be controlled with a simple stepper motor that, initially, just engages or disengages the V-twin from the main drive. Over time, again, we'll accumulate data that can be used to program rates for different circumstances. Crude and simple, I could just have a clutch button that I press when I get a signal, like the shift lights used in ICE racing, and press again to disengage at certain point during deceleration. At the very least, I expect we'll develop a simple speed based system that automatically engages and disengages the V-twin, at set points, and probably with a few modes (street, race, etc). EFI controllers can do this, as they have programmable outputs to control ancillary equipment.






tylerwatts said:


> Todd, do you plan to put that ethanol motor's power through the DC shaft?...


Sort of. I purposely left the long shaft on my little DC motor, with the intention of eventually having an outer support bearing. What I plan to do now is make a shaft that is a sleeve that that slips over the DC motor's shaft, and has two sprockets, one to the rear wheel, and one to the V-twin/AC motor. So, effectively, both systems drive that shaft; the DC motor from inside, and the V-twin from outside. The DC motor's DE bearing will serve as the shaft's inner bearing.





tylerwatts said:


> ...Will the ethanol motor be running at the start? How will the DC start off and ICE take over? Seems complicated but with potential...


It will be running, and will be engaged at a TBD point. It will, in performance applications, be spooling up as it waits to be engaged. I will have the option of shutting the ICE down completely, say in traffic - or just letting it idle and revving it at will.  I think I answered "how" above, if not ask and I will try to clarify.





tylerwatts said:


> ...I don't see any battery to feed the DC unless it's low voltage to start off. Any controller or just short the battery directly? Doubt that Michelin will cope!


Battery pack is under the swingarm, under the turbo. That's half the capacity of the current box, so ultimately 20-30 miles of all-electric range; far more if I make the V-twin recharge it going down the road. I can make the V-twin run, at any speed I want it to, while disengaged from the main drive, if I want to do that.

DC motor will have a conventional controller - it's in the box directly under the motor. I have a lot of stuff packaged into this thing.  If there isn't enough space there for a full 1500-2000 amp controller, I can put the power electronics (IGBTs, etc) there, and move the control electronics elsewhere. Believe it or not, I have a few places that I haven't stuffed anything into - as contingencies. 


All this points out the point of my CAD obsession. I know how many cubic inches of space I have at any of those points, just by clicking and analyzing. I can optimize every square inch of this bike before I ever lift a tool. It works too. When I (finally) take something off the CAD drawing board and implement it, almost invariably, it fits exactly as it was intended to. Sometimes, in the middle of making parts, my brain is telling me, "I don't know dude, that looks pretty close!" I trudge on, trusting CAD, and it's usually right. I just have to remember sometimes that while a thousandth of an inch may look like a football field when I'm zoomed in in CAD, it's not even recognizable in real life. 

Case in point, when the big V-twin arrived Curt asked if I was sure it would fit, because it looked so massive. I told him CAD says it would, and when I placed Squat's, tighter, frame over it CAD's optimism was confirmed.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I've thought, for a while, that they are two complementary technologies, that actually work very well together - reading the reviews on the latest round of hypercars (La Ferrari, 918 Spyder, P1) confirmed it for me.


Other than range I don't see what an ICE brings to the table. Tesla and Lightning have shown that a properly built EV can blow away most ICE offerings.



> No road vehicle needs a 218 mph (350 km/h) top speed. No motorcycle needs to make 200 horsepower, with as much torque as a Hyundai iMax people mover. These are figures of absolute excess – and that's the point. The Lightning LS-218 will be a truly, horrifyingly fast motorcycle, the fastest on the planet.


http://www.gizmag.com/lightning-ls218-unveiled-specs/32142/

I understand that you may find the challenge of integrating two different propulsion units interesting, but I don't see them as complementary. The ICE just limits the true potential of the EV. Lightning can't make a better bike by adding an ICE to it, in fact they made a better bike by eliminating the ICE and replacing it with something better.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I understand that you may find the challenge of integrating two different propulsion units interesting, but ....


Fortunately, we have people like Todd that prefer to think outside the box!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Ken. 

The bottom line is my motley crew and I made a decision about what we really want to accomplish with this particular project, and we are extremely happy with that decision, and excited about what we're doing.


I'm still fascinated with electric propulsion, and will be pursuing my vision for the ultimate BEV motorcycle with Squat; just on the street, at normal speeds, not the race track.


I have the data for the rear mount for the V-twin, plan to capture data for the front mount this week, and pulled the battery box from Scrape last night. The madness is in motion...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Doing some chicken-scratching and shading to nail down component locations, and my brain has been working overtime to think through the actual V-twin mounts. They are structural in the chassis, and also provide mounting for other components, plus how you begin a parametric model determines how much profanity you spew, and how high your blood pressure rises, later when you need to modify it.  Before this week is out, I hope to begin cutting aluminum and introducing the big V-twin to its new home.

Some, as yet, really rough chicken-scratching here to start thinking through the V-twin to DC motor drive system, and mounts to hang the battery box weight off the chassis, and not the swingarm; sprung versus un-sprung weight being the issue, and favorable weight distribution being the goal. I have a carbon-foam-aluminum composite idea in mind for those arms, that would be featherweight, and probably strong enough to hold three or four times the weight they'll carry. Also a little sketching and shading to think through the (probably carbon) fresh air intake for the turbo. Finally, a couple scratched lines to reorient and extend the tongues on the muffler's rear baffle plate, to direct the hot gas rearward. You guys haven't seen the CAD model for that plate before, as it's ICE-related. I can share it if you'd like to see more CAD porn.









The CIF crew seems to also be pretty geeked about this new plan. Gary, in particular, had lots of feedback and ideas about what "we" can do. I'm going to try to divert his attention from the hybrid drivetrain long enough to do some real engineering on the swingarm. I'd like to get a real material analysis done on the existing arm, then sit down with him and develop a true engineered process for welding the new adjuster/stretch plates on, normalizing all the stresses, and bringing the entire assembly up to a specific condition. I was pleasantly surprised that Kawasaki used such beefy tubing to build it, and want to build upon that foundation, and develop something awesome. My design would probably provide enough mechanical strength to not fail catastrophically in the event of weld failure or welded metal fatigue and failure, but if all is done right it should be pretty much indestructible. I've seen welded aluminum break, quite a few times, and it wasn't pretty.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The bottom line is my motley crew and I made a decision about what we really want to accomplish with this particular project, and we are extremely happy with that decision, and excited about what we're doing.


That's the most important part, have fun with it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can't believe you are putting an ICE back into your bike, Todd!

Right that does it, I need to find a V12 Rolls Royce diesel for the tractor!!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I can't believe you are putting an ICE back into your bike, Todd!
> 
> Right that does it, I need to find a V12 Rolls Royce diesel for the tractor!!!!



Hang a radial engine on the front of it, connected to the shaft of that Art Deco milk float motor!


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> Todd, less art - more engineering. Then you will get something finished.


Second that. Is there something done with this project other than Todd Perkins and Scrape logos on each photograph?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

For those who don't appreciate my obsession with CAD and drawing, you might want to look the other way for half of the content of this thread. I can't even offer you a sincere apology because - that's kind of what I do. 

Scrape has, from the very beginning, been my place to relax and stretch my creative muscles. Being a, CAD-oriented, industrial design guy that's how it's normally going to come out. I describe the physical, tangible, motorcycle as a lab experiment to test the validity of my theories. My true passion is the theory...

Plus, there are actually some people here who like seeing it - imagine that! 


Duck if you're squeamish, because it's back to the drawing board today. I've finally dug in and started translating the reverse engineering data into CAD. I have the hole coordinates saved in my phone, and a DXF of the holes and outside profile saved on USB. As soon as I get a chance, I'm either position-drilling holes in a scrap piece of material on the Bridgeport, or cutting a poster board pattern on the laser; depending on mood and opportunity. As soon as this is confirmed, I drag a profile sketch from this Rhino work into SolidWorks and begin developing the actual mount. This way, at the core of the model, I always have that original mount, and a dedicated origin for re-indicating the part on the mill for future changes. I spent a lot of time researching different cases, from factory to billet race, and thinking through machining and using the mount from this point up to all-out racing applications. Soon, this will start growing appendages for reaching up to the frame, out to battery and power electronics mounts, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bam! Laser-cut pattern, bolt holes are dead-on. I might tweak a few places on the outside profile, just to be _me_ about it, but it's ready to move forward. I made a hand-drawn/scissor-cut pattern to locate the engine, laterally, in the frame relative to the new frame mount locations. Next, I'll cut the battery box mounts off Scrape's frame, position the V-twin, and use the two patterns to get the data for the next step.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My apologies for this first pic, but we're totally geeked about it. Curt's curiosity is beyond peaked about whether or not I can really fit all the stuff required for what I have set in motion. I carefully cut the old battery box mounts out (they're going to Squat), did a little preliminary grinding, and then pulled the big V-twin over to Scrape. He was very skeptical about whether it was even going to fit in the frame but, as I told him, good CAD doesn't lie.  For you, my all-electrified brethren, imagine this image with a custom-cased AC pancake motor dominating that space under the frame frame, attached to the V-twin's crank, and drive system feeding that power back to the DC motor. Might help a little? 




















This hacked and scribbled on mess contains the data I need to finish the rear mount. I'm thinking about making a new DC motor mount that bolts to that plate, and the frame. That will allow us to install the entire powertrain as an assembly, or pull and install individual components. The critical aspects here are the vertical and lateral positioning of the V-twin mounting holes, relative to the upper frame mounting holes. That information is in the red line, which aligns with the top surface of the V-twin mounting pattern, and the taped-over "V" in the middle of that line; respectively. There is an arrow indicating that point drawn on the bottom pattern. A little measuring, and modeling...












Scrape on the carrier, swinging off the back of my big ex-cop car.  I need to figure out how much weight it's going to gain, to determine whether this will still be possible (in addition to how I like the three inches of extra Scrape hanging out on either side). I have actually had Scrape back there, and enough bike parts and raw materials in the trunk, before to know 450-ish pounds would still be okay.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Progress on my rabbit-eared mount so far. Trying to minimize weight, while preserving maximum structural properties in the critical areas. The rabbit ears are to wrap around the rear cylinder and up to the frame. The smaller opening on the right side of the main mounting area is an open port for the oil lines, with a channel for the lines to run down and under the engine to the oil tank. The larger one on the left is a pocket just to remove weight. The two holes between them is for a clamp style mount to tie the DC motor to this mount. I decided not to try to extend the DC motor's frame mount to this one because the motor's DE mounting surface hits the plate on that red line. I don't like the interference between the engine and motor mounting. The clamp would be 1-1/2 to 2" thick, so a strong, positive, position lock of the two components.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ready to cut. I'm going to talk to Eric today about making that happen...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When I got to the shop yesterday, Curt had already paved the way - Eric was all for it.  Today I laser-cut a couple more test patterns in project board; one with all the holes, one with material left where we're going to leave it, so stacked they look like the mount will. Eric suggested only taking half the material out on the ears, and I agreed. Then, I cut piece out of my big plate...













...Curt clamped down, indicated it in, and set the tools, and Eric verified it.













Ready, set... Tomorrow we'll probably make chips.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Curt and Rachel, whatcha makin?!












"Chips!"












All the holes are drilled, cutting the port and the pocket.












Counterbores cut, now a little 3D machining for the countersinks.












Looking good.












The upper pockets cut. Eric ran out of time for the day, with only the lower profile to go. I'm lovin it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The V-twin mount is out of the CNC. Eric had already finished cutting it and de-burred it by the time Curt and I arrived. I love this little mount!  A quick test on the engine confirmed the accuracy. Of interest here, the two center holes will be tapped for a really awesome little clamp mount for the DC motor.












Then Curt and I did the bend, necessary for the right upper frame mount to clear the cylinder. I love doing "hammerformed" aluminum. The quotation marks are because we actually used the hydraulic press instead of swinging a hammer this time.  6061T-6 has a limit on how far you can bend it, cold, before it starts to develop stress cracks; or snaps. Just the right amount of heat (typically far less than even TIG welding would introduce - I could handle this part with thin gloves while working it), and it'll do amazing things. Done right, the forming process will also work harden the formed area to a nice condition. Some of the parts I've done in the past, with this process, were incredibly strong. This one "_feels_" right.  Now just a little finishing work in the forming area...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally remembered to get the screws and acorn nuts for the rear seat mounts. I couldn't get a strong enough bite on the lathe to be my normal obsessive self, so I hand ground the hex end a bit so that they would recess into the frame brackets.












The nuts will be TIG'd to the bracket. This allows the screws to have full engagement, rather than float through an opening in the bracket to get to the threaded nuts. Ideally, you would want a double shear mount but since this is designed for me, and I'm pretty lightweight, I can play a little aesthetically.












I still need to get a 90-degree countersink tool to get a proper seat, and recess the screw's head completely into the stay. For now, it just feels good to have the seat firmly attached to the bike again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Following our normal design process, we shot for the stars with the stretched, turbocharged, hybrid concept and are now finding the best place to land according to the results of a LOT of R&D.

The main issue ended up being weight. We found Scrape quickly escalating (on paper) from a 300lb featherweight, to a 500+lb heavyweight. Turbocharging has been nixed, in favor of nitrous oxide injection, and the wheelbase has been reigned in to a mere 1" stretch. The main reason for that extra inch is it allows me to pursue a really trick swingarm that can be extended for hyper-performance runs, via bolt on adjustment plates. Even if that doesn't pan out, the extra inch is a bit more stability, that's almost imperceptible aesthetically. The N20 system should weigh a fraction of what the turbo system would.

Aesthetics were the second issue. Our lithe little streetfighter was morphing into something that, albeit being kind of mean and awesome, wasn't quite the expression of the vision we're seeking. As soon as Nic and I saw the V-twin in Scrape we both thought, "That's _it_! Just like that; no more!" The H1 tank is back in play, and Squat will get the carbon shell - so both will exist.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You guys have been good sports, enduring my ICE antics and are, by the view numbers, still keeping an eye on things. So here's something more in keeping with the DIYEC way of life. 

We pulled the trigger on a Honda Civic Hybrid IMA motor, and it arrived today.  This will be the starter/generator motor. It's a bit larger in diameter, and heavier, than I had anticipated but I really like what I see. I think it will work out. The first step will be to physically reverse engineer the motor, and develop our own proprietary case to mount it on the V-twin. When I felt the weight of the motor, my thoughts went to a light, but strong, aluminum back plate, and carbon fiber case.











Like most manufacturers, with IPM motors, I think Honda uses a resolver. My initial thinking is that I will adapt a more traditional encoder instead, to allow more control options, but I'm admittedly just shooting arrows into the dark right now, until I learn more and get going. The old stator assembly from the V-twin will be turned and machined into a hub for this rotor. Our requirements are much simpler than with an EV traction motor. It just needs to be able to deliver a short burst of power to start the V-twin, and then feed a small amount of energy back to the pack when needed.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Interesting Todd! Keep the progress coming.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Tyler! 

Working in CAD to sort out the processes of mounting the V-twin in the bike, mounting the IMA to the V-twin, and the primary drive that will connect them all. From the work on Digital Scrape, I can verify space, determine materials, and then start actually modeling parts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The IMA motor liberated from its former, dark, factory prison. Now it's time for some good 'ol reverse engineering. I'm going to trim the steel frame down to four lugs that mount in an appropriate _Todd_ case - that shape just won't do. Of course, those lugs will also progress (snowball) into a little complementary sculpturing on the case. 









Next step, the rotor needs to come out. Barely visible in this pic, I wiggled plastic strips between the rotor and stator to prevent damage during extraction. Then, I tried to put a foot (toe of my shoe, actually) on the rotor and pull up on the stator to remove it. It started moving, but the thought quickly occurred that IF, I managed to get the stator clear of the rotor, and had a rare brief moment of personal imperfection and let it start moving to one side, it would be my swinging arms that would instinctively react to counter the magnetic force (to prevent damaging anything); which translates into my back twisting at some strange angle, while lifting, and with my foot pointed and forcing down to keep the rotor on the floor. After, maybe, one-half inch I realized that this is the kind of thing that turns an otherwise beautiful Sunday afternoon into an evening of chucking aspirin, and writhing in back pain on the sofa.  I've tweaked it doing things as simple as picking up a piece of paper. Actually, it was doing something stupid like this, thinking I got away with it, and then picking up said piece of paper a day or so later and finishing the job...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was outside helping Curt with something on his car and snapped a couple shots of Scrape and the big Vic hanging out, then turned them into a little PR photo.

My patrol car (daily driver) and hot pursuit vehicle (racebike).


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow scrape is tiny! Puts perspective to it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow scrape is tiny! Puts perspective to it.



Scrape isn't tiny. It's low, but it is a liter-class sized bike. "Scoop", the ex cop car, is _that_ BIG!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

HarryJames said:


> Nice and good work and i also like the ninja engine because i use it very well .good choice



Thanks Harry. What Ninja engine?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Wow scrape is tiny! Puts perspective to it.


It would look even smaller with me sitting on it. 
But it is perfectly proportional for Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> It would look even smaller with me sitting on it.
> But it is perfectly proportional for Todd!


Scrape's ergonomics are tailored to me, and racing, but I have people of varying shapes and sizes hop on occasionally to make sure the platform maintains its flexibility.

The cutoff on this exact configuration is probably about 6-feet tall, 175-200lbs, at which point the bike will begin to look small - like any normal sized bike under a big person would. Beyond that, my design platform can actually scale, and unwrap, to accommodate a pretty big guy or gal. I had Gary in mind the entire time I was working on the basic design. He's 6'5"-ish, large frame, normal build. I even have a CAD model of the unfurled edition, that I tinker with occasionally. I think we're eventually going to build what I call the "G-bike", as a demo model.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape is back in the Great Machine shop, and its transformation to hybrid is officially underway. Unless people here actually want to see it, I will not post the a lot of the ICE-saturated pics, and will concentrate on the EV-related content here. I'll add a direct link to my website's Scrape Build Pics page to my sig, for those who want to see more.

These are the main components that will become Scrape's starter-generator motor. I used the press to carefully squeeze the rotor out of the IMA motor. The plastic shims I stuffed between the rotor and stator worked perfectly, and the press made it an easy, slow, gentle, process. The only thing I didn't think to do was put something non-magnetic on the press table. I had a hand under the rotor to help guide it, then used both hands to peel it down and away after it had cleared the stator, and then let it rest on the table - I mean attach itself to the table! These little magnets are STRONG!  I also made the mistake of sitting the Harley stator on top of the rotor to carry it into the house this morning - and had to carefully pry them back apart - double magnetic whammy!









Now the reverse-engineering begins - I love this stuff. The number one concern is getting them to spin on perfectly concentric _orbits_ on the V-twin's crankshaft. That means I have to find exact dead center of the stator, and make sure that I maintain it as the motor case bolts to the V-twin's crank case. It has a register for the charging system stator, that will be verified and used. I will turn the center of the old V-twin armature to serve as the hub for the starter-generator motor's rotor. Here it's more a matter of doing very precise machine work so that it turns true on the crankshaft. This is where Great Machine's equipment is invaluable - when searching for that last ten-thousandth of an inch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In 1983, the universe foolishly allowed me to take possession of a bright orange, 1972 Kawasaki H1-B, 500cc, two-stroke motorcycle (inset image, lower-right corner). My first real streetbike. Literally and figuratively, loud and outrageous, I rode the tires off of it. I raced it. I customized it. I lived it. I breathed it. I found freedom. That old bike was a huge step, a catalyst, in the process of me becoming the outside-the-box design guy that I am today.

The "Dream Series" avenue, of our Ythos design philosophy allows us to create forward-looking, two-wheeled, mechanical-artistic, homages to transformative experiences of the past.

Behold, the H1 tank - before we cut, chop, pinch, section, weld, and form, it into Scrape's future (inset image, lower-left corner).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In another nod to _old Todd_, I decided to cut the gas tank today (before having it professionally cleaned). A quick wash with soap and water, a clean sniff test (no apparent gas smell/fumes), followed up with a shop vac hose from the (running) big Vic's exhaust - it was then or never. Curt produced a pack of sparklers, we taped one to a stick, lit it, and I stuck it in the cap opening beside the hose from the (still running) Vic's exhaust. No big bang, the theory seemed sound.

I put on a welding jacket, gloves, and shield, fired up the right angle grinder, and started cutting. No drama, no problems, just a free outer tank shell. It's just plopped on the bike, in this blurry cell phone pic. Lots of cutting and shaping will ensue to make it fit and look _right_.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks awesome slumped low over the heads of the twin Todd! Maybe needs to be a but narrower but I love the look personally.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks awesome slumped low over the heads of the twin Todd! Maybe needs to be a but narrower but I love the look personally.



Thanks Tyler. 

The plan is to wedge section it longitudinally, so that it gets narrower as it runs back to the seat; as per the CAD model's tank. I also wedge sectioned the digital tank horizontally but might not do that on the real tank. We'll see how it looks each step along the way and make decisions accordingly.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The V-twin rear mounts are almost there. The frame plates are roughed in, drilled, and (on the other side) formed. I turned the hex off acorn nuts, which will be welded to the plates. Later, I'll add a little spider web of gusseting between the plates, frame, and nuts. The plan is to weld the plates and nuts today; then on to the top mounts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally, _finished_ the rear mount. I actually have to do some shaping, cleanup, and the gussets, but it is 100% functional. Left side frame mount - the curvy one.












Right side frame mount.












The assembly. It's actually strong enough to hang the V-twin on its own. It's blocked up to begin working on the upper mounts.












Maybe not so much a welcome sight here, but the big V-twin is now officially a part of the package.












As I have been saying around the shop - CAD doesn't lie. It fits exactly how my work on digital Scrape said it would.












If you're wondering why the bike looks so low in these pics, it's because the front suspension is at full (2") bump. I needed to verify that everything was going to clear - easy breezy.  I was willing to relocate the oil filter (which I didn't have in the model), but it's fine where it is.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My initial exploration of these concepts is usually focused on the aesthetic value, and the feasibility. Aesthetic is, of course, subjective; does it look _good_? Feasibility is often a matter of will it all fit and work? The various geometric shapes stuffed here and there on the models is to see how that space looks occupied by components and because, with CAD, the actual volume of the space is just a click away.

This round of CAD work confirms that we have enough space under the engine and motors for the battery pack. Based on 78 Turnigy A-Spec 1S/2P modules, we can easily fit the 1.7kW pack. That should be good for at least 10-15, possibly up to 20, miles of electric range, and 1200-1500 amps of current, at 144 volts. I need to do some thinking and research on armoring the bottom of the box; lessons learned from Tesla. 









The box over the DC motor, and behind the V-twin, will be for the DC motor controller. Nice short leads from pack to controller, and back out to the motor.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd your packaging is excellent. However, and you may know already yourself, I once built a supermotard with about that much clearance axially to the motor and it still rubbed under the exceptional braking force with the deflection of the forks. Just be aware


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd your packaging is excellent. However, and you may know already yourself, I once built a supermotard with about that much clearance axially to the motor and it still rubbed under the exceptional braking force with the deflection of the forks. Just be aware


Thanks. How long were your forks and what type of riding conditions did the deflection occur in?

I am hoping that my forks being almost eight inches shorter than they were on the Ninja and light weight of the bike and rider will prevent that much flexing. If it does, I will probably try a, shortened, inverted fork. I can also try Kevlar scuff pads on the top of the front cylinder and oil filter.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

My forks were probably 50% longer but at full compression during rub they were maybe about 25% longer. The bike too was light, a supermotard conversion about 165kg. It was under max braking force that I had light rubbing. 

I mentioned it Todd because I'd expect you to be planning stronger brakes for the bike given its performance goals. My rule is always be able to stop faster than you can go, and on my bikes that especially includes stopping faster than anyone else on more wheels can stop.

Personally I'd suggest that the inverted forks would suit the look of your bike more, otherwise some fat Japanese performance rwu forks shortened like these would be awesome. With radial caliper mounts integral to the fork body.

Hey, dare I say you could make your own?! Repurpose some high spec internals into a Todd design. Blades come to mind, almost like a propeller profile though not aerodynamic as to make the bike flighty. It could actually give stability on high speed runs.

Of course, a BMW Paralever style setup would be the ultimate in my mind but ott perhaps? Hope I'm not over complicating life for you.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> ...Hope I'm not over complicating life for you.


Spoken to the guy who thrives in complication, that was a joke right? 






tylerwatts said:


> My forks were probably 50% longer but at full compression during rub they were maybe about 25% longer. The bike too was light, a supermotard conversion about 165kg. It was under max braking force that I had light rubbing...


Thanks for the info - it has been inserted into my mental database. 





tylerwatts said:


> ...I mentioned it Todd because I'd expect you to be planning stronger brakes for the bike given its performance goals. My rule is always be able to stop faster than you can go, and on my bikes that especially includes stopping faster than anyone else on more wheels can stop...


Yes, I assumed you were referring to braking; and, yes, I plan on increasing the braking power with acceleration. I would love to also do 0-100-0mph runs; plus, being able to stop at the end of whatever crazy exploits Scrape and I get into is a nice idea.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Hey, dare I say you could make your own?! Repurpose some high spec internals into a Todd design...


That's the direction this is ultimately headed in...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ooh can you make me a set of Todd Perkins Paralever front suspension please! I'm itching to build a bike with a Paralever front end.

PS: let's be careful about throwing around the name Paralever as it is a BMW trademark I think. Don't want you to get in trouble in the future for that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Ooh can you make me a set of Todd Perkins Paralever front suspension please! I'm itching to build a bike with a Paralever front end.
> 
> PS: let's be careful about throwing around the name Paralever as it is a BMW trademark I think. Don't want you to get in trouble in the future for that.


Lol, you'd better wait and see what the results are of a _simple_ Todd Perkins upside down fork first.  We'll skirt the legal issues and call yours the Perkilever. 




I started the process for the top mounts with the part I was certain of - turning four bushings to snug up to the V-twin's heads. Two short ones for the right side.












And two long ones for the left side. I also had to machine flats on the inside of these two to clear the rocker covers and nuts.












Then, I screwed around with a couple pieces of poster board until I found something I liked. I think there will be a brace running from front to rear on each side too. I'm going to model these tomorrow and see when I can get them on Eric's radar to machine. If that's too far out, I will cut them by hand to keep the show moving.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bump (to a fresh page)...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Eric was busy and couldn't make chips today, so I started hashing out the front mount - and guiding Nic and Rachel through the process of wedge-sectioning the tank. To begin, she plotted the center line, scored a handful of reference marks into the steel with a cutoff disc in the Dremel, then media blasted the shell down to bare metal. By the time she finished with all that Nic had arrived, so they put the shell on Scrape, shared their thoughts and opinions, and pulled tape lines across it to figure the right amount to snip out of the rear end. When we had three head bobs, they pulled fresh tape lines, measured over and over, marked the patient for surgery, removed the wedge with a cutoff disc in the die grinder; and then sanded and cut and sanded until the two halves were ready for me to tack together. We're all just giddy over the results.  It's exactly what we were looking for, and it's just barely tacked together, so far...

Scrape Build Pic #800! 













The front is still down 2" in these pics. We can't really finish the profile until it's back up to ride height.













I need to get a shrinking hammer to work the dent out of the other side, which should also bring this bump down; if done properly. The tank is just perfect though. The H1 tank had classic lines that simply needed to be _reinterpreted_ a bit to really highlight its beautiful curves.












Rachel was snapping the pics today, and also sent me this composite. Of course I had to tag it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been lost in a mind-numbing amount of research and design work, to make all this stuff work together; hopefully seamlessly. In other words, I have been in design/engineering heaven.  As I make progress, we pull the trigger and order parts, and then machine and fabricate... To help me sort it all out, I sketch and shade in SketchBook, before diving into CAD. For some reason, the Android version sucks compared to the IOS version, but my iPhone screen is too small, and I haven't bitten the bullet on an iPad yet.

Here, Scrape is hastily snipped out of one of Rachel's photos, and raised up to (approximate) ride height in front. The motor controller (over the DC motor), and battery box (under the DC motor), are roughly shaded in (detail to come later), and I'm working through the V-twin's exhaust system (ICE'y details withheld).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While waiting for Eric to find a little free time to cut the top mount plates, I have been slowly inching forward with the front mount. I actually started while Rachel and Nic were working on the tank, by drilling and tapping the bar that bolts to the V-twin's factory mounting location.

The point of this mount is to support the weight of the engine, while the top and rear mounts manage torque and positioning. These engines vibrate like crazy, so I'm fabricating this out of steel, and designing it to be as bulletproof as possible from cyclic fatigue. The engine rests on the lower bar, and which is suspended in a slot machined in the main plate. That way the welds are never carrying the stress directly. A little more forming and the main plate will follow the shape of the cylinder and tuck inside the lower-left frame rail; and bolt to that rail. Steel construction comes with a weight penalty, but is worth the price in this case. I will drill and machine the individual parts as much as possible, to lighten them, while maintaining structural integrity.









I know I've been showing a lot of ICE stuff lately. My point is to share the design and fabrication behind making the bike work. I do filter out my ICE-related babbling as much as possible.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I would have imagined that curvy strap to look more like a forged beam, thinner in the centre like a con rod.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I would have imagined that curvy strap to look more like a forged beam, thinner in the centre like a con rod.


If you had sent me that in the first place, I wouldn't have to do all this forming! 

There will be some gusseting, but I wanted to keep it tucked in tight, so a little wider in the middle. Actually if you scaled that con rod to the length of Scrape's front mount, it would probably be about the same width. The reason, I'm trying to keep it tucked in is it has to fit behind the starter-generator motor, and I still have a LOT of stuff to fit on this bike. Space is a precious commodity!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ICE (related content) Warning - but it's really about CAD man! 

Out of sketching and into the CAD workshop, I found the opportunity in 3D space for a longer, snakier, front primary tube. The only feasible route to matching its length with the rear tube was to simply mirror the front tube, which, unexpectedly, created the popular ram's horn manifold. I also found that I can eliminate a separate tailpipe, and just have the muffler route back into the same down-pipe outlet. This is where I am happiest in life - lost, finding possibilities, in my digital shop...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I told, an EV activist, friend about the conversion to hybrid and his reaction was, "you can fit both drive systems on a bike?!" I told him, yes, I can fit all t_hree_, actually. 

I love packaging all this stuff, and figuring out how to make it all work together seamlessly. The journey wouldn't be quite the same without CAD though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The ECU arrived. In the original spirit of the project, we chose the open source-based MegaSquirt MS3 Pro. One of the things I would like to explore - later - is if we can make this control the DC motor as well. It has a wealth of programmable PWM outputs. If possible, it would be pretty cool to drive a custom power stage from a couple of them...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very interesting concept Todd. I've thought of the same when looking at hybrid conversions in adding EV to a stock car to get a hybrid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Very interesting concept Todd. I've thought of the same when looking at hybrid conversions in adding EV to a stock car to get a hybrid.


Hybrids are really my real passion. A part of me has remained deeply in love with ICE, but I have also developed a _thing_ for electric. It always seemed like a no-go, because of the combined weight of the two systems making each ineffective and inefficient - until these super and hyper cars started using electric as a supplement. Now I'm sold. Hooked. 

Modern ICE ECUs have amazing capability, and the race versions are just crazy. Scrape's ECU can control a 8-12 cylinder, turbocharged, nitrous-injected, engine and all the peripherals that make those systems work together, seamlessly. Curt has a hacked Honda Civic ECU controlling the turbo engine in his car, and seeing what he can do with it is very impressive.

Assigning a couple PWM outs to drive a DC power stage seems simple, but we'll see...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Talking of hybrids (sorry for the hijack, Todd) I had a thought.

On my quadricycle truck build I was pondering the idea of using a Citroen 2CV engine as a 'drop in when needed' ICE.

I was sort of thinking that if I had the motor, driving a trans, driving the axle then I could drop in a small self contained engine that uses a short propshaft with a sliding spline to the tail shaft of the motor.
The prop would be left disconnected until the pack was spent, and then connected up to drive the motor and the vehicle. The clutch could be between the motor and trans, or on the back of the engine.

So long as the motor was fine at engine speeds then for longer journeys the ICE would be a 'get it home or to a charging point' back up.
The engine, being self contained and light weight, could be easily lifted out when not needed.

I figured that it would be lighter and more effective as a range extender then carrying a generator set.

Not sure of the legal logistics for it in the UK though, so it remains a thought for now.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very interesting.thought woody. I'm sure Todd could advise. I'd he tempted.to try what Todd says using the PWM outputs of an aftermarket ecu to drive the motor controller and also run a simple fuel injection system for fantastic economy on the 2CV engine. FYI, all previous BMW boxer bike engines separate from their gearbox like a 2CV. The trike guys like them
This already.comes wit fuel injection and excellent economy plus a good dose of power for shifting loads or even charging while you drive.

Todd 

I think you need to design a hybrid ecu for the masses with DC or AC control stage and correct interface for using both drives as a hybrid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Talking of hybrids (sorry for the hijack, Todd) I had a thought...


I was hoping to get into this discussion; have a seat, a crumpet, and some tea! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...On my quadricycle truck build I was pondering the idea of using a Citroen 2CV engine as a 'drop in when needed' ICE.
> 
> I was sort of thinking that if I had the motor, driving a trans, driving the axle then I could drop in a small self contained engine that uses a short propshaft with a sliding spline to the tail shaft of the motor.
> The prop would be left disconnected until the pack was spent, and then connected up to drive the motor and the vehicle. The clutch could be between the motor and trans, or on the back of the engine.
> ...


That sounds similar to the setup I am using on Scrape. It must have electric to move from a standstill? You just have to remember to save enough battery to get moving, if you don't have on-board charging capability; the reason for my AC motor. I would definitely do a clutch between engine and motor.

NOTE: The one thing that I have been planning for is making sure that some electrical current is passing through the commmutator while the ICE is moving the bike, even if it's just 50-100amps. Way back, when I was first sorting through crazy ideas to build the Inhaler, I asked about flat towing it (all four wheels down/tow bar) - (paraphrasing) Major said that extended distances, with the motor turning/but "off", and brushes in place, could remove the film from the commutator, and (I think) possibly even damage it.

The ECU gives me such wide-open programming capability that I am planning to just drop the current to the DC motor as the V-twin comes into power; for normal street riding, to preserve the batteries (even though they can charge from the AC motor). In racing, it would be all-out, both (or all three) drives working to full potential; worry about charge after the win light comes on. 







Woodsmith said:


> ...Not sure of the legal logistics for it in the UK though, so it remains a thought for now.


Can't help you there - I have no such concerns. If it's registered as a pure EV, do you have to get the ICE certified? Would they actually stop you and check all that? Put the ICE on a little pallet, with steel bands around it, and a box over the connection to the motor, and say you're just hauling it! 








tylerwatts said:


> ...to try what Todd says using the PWM outputs of an aftermarket ecu to drive the motor controller and also run a simple fuel injection system for fantastic economy on the 2CV engine...


I don't know if it would benefit Woody as much because his ICE range extender wouldn't always be on-board. For the majority of his needs a simple DC controller would work fine; then just a throttle signal to the ECU when it's on-board.






tylerwatts said:


> ...FYI, all previous BMW boxer bike engines separate from their gearbox like a 2CV. The trike guys like them
> This already.comes wit fuel injection and excellent economy plus a good dose of power for shifting loads or even charging while you drive...


So do the K-series, inline "flat" three and four cylinder engines.  I have future plans for a BMW hybrid. I think the boxer has more 
charisma, and should hang nicely under one of my frames. 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Todd
> 
> I think you need to design a hybrid ecu for the masses with DC or AC control stage and correct interface for using both drives as a hybrid.


If my plans work, I will share what we did to make the open-source ECU output the right signal for the DC motor. Sharing the plans for the power stage is also a thought/option; and possibly a kit version if there's interest.

The only thing I would be secretive about is the actual programming that we develop to make our bikes do what they do. Some type of open-source baseline "map" and code, that people can tinker with, might be possible though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Parts continue to trickle in. The connectors and pins for the MS3 are here.













We found a deal on the connectors, but the slots didn't line up with the tabs on the MS3, so I used a Dremel to cut new slots. I'll go back later and straighten this up - just wanted to make sure they'll work right now. The slots and tabs key each connector to a specific socket, so they can't be mixed up.












The exhaust donuts are also here. As soon as the collector and straight sections arrive, the exhaust build begins. I goofed on a couple of the V-band clamps for the primaries, and we're still waiting for the cylinder head flanges, but we'll be able to get the collector and down tube figured out and tacked together soon. Sucky pic, I know...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I started on the MS3 mount today. I still have to radius the mounting ears. I'm just playing it by ear and seeing what I come up with. It will be behind the fairing, which is probably the coolest location on the bike, and the wiring harness will shoot directly under the tank. The fairing will be recreated with a machined, turned, and fabricated aluminum frame that holds the Bat-T emblem in the center, then rolls around the top of the lights, and two-thirds to three-quarters of the way up the sides. The center will, ideally be smoked polycarbonate, with lots of fasteners holding it in place. So, basically, a more sophisticated version of the current fairing. You'll be able to see this ECU mounting bracket through it.












Test-fitting the donuts, and trying to be patient, waiting for the rest of the exhaust supplies.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, I created a fiberglass elbow over one of the stainless steel donuts to start planning the intake for the V-twin. I just wrapped the donut with masking tape, did one layer of fiberglass cloth, and split it with a razor blade just as it was starting to set. As soon as it was able to hold it's form (polyester resin), I removed it, cleaned the donut, taped the elbow back together on the inside, and did one more layer of cloth lay-up on it, overlapping the seam in the first layer. I wanted to catch it while the resin was still just a bit tacky, so I wouldn't have to sand to remove the wax. I didn't try to orient the pattern, and wasn't really picky about this, because it's just a mock-up part.












It'll poke through on the _cool _side of the V-twin, away from the hot exhaust. In my current train of thought, this would be aluminum tubing, with a customized, billet, drive-by-wire, throttle body V-clamped to the end of it; and a press-formed mesh dome on the end of that, facing into the air stream.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> We found a deal on the connectors, but the slots didn't line up with the tabs on the MS3, so I used a Dremel to cut new slots. I'll go back later and straighten this up - just wanted to make sure they'll work right now. The slots and tabs key each connector to a specific socket, so they can't be mixed up.


There are 5 different AMPSEAL polarization options identified by plug body color and part number suffix: AMPSEAL plugs.

The most common is the -1 variant (which is out of stock at the above vendor) but it looks like you need the -2 variant, anyway (gray body).

For cimping the pins on just a few connectors the most economical/sensible option is to use a manual "W" or "pretzel" crimper; e.g. - Molex # 63811-1000. Or do it ghetto style and mash the crimping wings onto the wire with needlenose pliers then solder (all but guaranteeing the wire will break later on if subjected to vibration - as is the case on a motorized vehicle - so this is not recommended).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> There are 5 different AMPSEAL polarization options identified by plug body color and part number suffix: AMPSEAL plugs.
> 
> The most common is the -1 variant (which is out of stock at the above vendor) but it looks like you need the -2 variant, anyway (gray body)...


Hey! Yup, we figured that out. We actually could have just ordered the right ones with the MS3, but Curt and Nic like shopping for deals so we gave it a shot. Personally, I prefer to just pay (a reasonable price) and get what I really _want_.

They fit and work perfectly, and I'll clean up the new slots later. If we ever decide to order the right connectors, we can de-pin these and pop them in the new ones... 






Tesseract said:


> ...For cimping the pins on just a few connectors the most economical/sensible option is to use a manual "W" or "pretzel" crimper; e.g. - Molex # 63811-1000. Or do it ghetto style and mash the crimping wings onto the wire with needlenose pliers then solder (all but guaranteeing the wire will break later on if subjected to vibration - as is the case on a motorized vehicle - so this is not recommended).


Curt has a drawer full of crimpers. He did his research and found which of his many were supposed to work on these pins. He crimped one, we "stress" tested it, and the (Mil-Spec) wire failed; away from the crimp. He's pretty thorough, and will cut the crimp itself in half to be certain he's getting a good connection - why I bought so many pins, for testing, mistakes, and future revisions.

No soldering here, just good crimps. All Mil-Spec wiring. A ridiculous amount of research, design, and planning. Always listening and learning though, so I appreciate the watchful eyes - let us know if you catch us f'n something up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Focus on design and fabrication, not the end result. 

I've heard rumors that you can purchase mufflers, right off the shelf. Seems silly when you can spend countless hours designing and fabricating your own. 

I've been doing a LOT of research to make final decisions on the parts and materials to get this hybrid system together, and Scrape back in action. Lately, it has been this exhaust system, which is incredibly sophisticated. To pin down some of the last materials on the list, I needed to settle on a design for the muffler, so I did some sketching. My plan calls for a ton of hammer-forming, in custom steel forms. The point, besides my normal aesthetic obsession, is to develop a housing (that also doubles as a chin spoiler) that is as light as possible but doesn't buzz or resonate on its own, unfavorably. The best way to accomplish that is by hammering features, ridges and rolls, into the actual stainless steel sheet metal. I think this is the design we're going to shoot for. The sides feature a stainless hemisphere (just because), welded into a hammered, recessed, three-tip, star. A simple recessed bead in the top panel should stiffen and reduce that panels tendency to oscillate and make noise, while adding a subtle aesthetic touch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a couple of these 4mm, male, bullet connectors coming this week. I want to test an idea for making a better connection to the 1S/2P Turnigy modules. As soon as the V-twin is securely mounted, I plan to turn a lot of my attention to getting the bike wired up again, and the DC motor back in action. Performance should actually be better because the lighter LiPo pack will counter some of the weight gain, and I will have a full 300a available to the motor, with any sag, for the first time; ever. Initially, I'm thinking about running 15 modules which will put pack voltage between 55 and 60 volts (Scrape's little Alltrax has a 60v max). The point of this little setup is to test and determine just how much current I think will be necessary for our racing goals. Even with lead batteries that have a 170a max, Scrape accelerated quickly enough for people watching to perceive it as being _fast_. I thought it was painfully slow, but I'm a little spoiled. So first step is seeing how 300a, with no sag, feels. By the GE motor's specs, and the current gearing, it should have a ~70mph top speed. Without concern of killing the batteries (no way to limit battery current in Alltrax interface), I can bump up the tooth count on the front sprocket and increase that to 80-90mph, and allow it to pull a little more current, a bit longer...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I have a couple of these 4mm, male, bullet connectors coming this week.


Where did you get the connectors?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Where did you get the connectors?


Ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/331197380830?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

There might be a better deal, I didn't want to waste an hour trying to save a buck, for just a couple of them. If my idea works, and I order enough to do a whole pack, I will go for the best bargain. I just search for "4mm male bullet connector", and narrow the results if necessary.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Again, just see the fabrication, ignore the intended end goal.  This stuff is so beautiful to work with. This is just the larger donut rough cut, and lightly touched on the belt sander. The long straight section gets shortened, the joints perfected, and this tacked together and positioned to start the exhaust build (ignore that part).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The bullet connectors arrived today, so I could test my idea. It works!  I can drill and tap the connectors. The plan is to machine pockets into the busbars, press the connectors in (medium interference fit), and then secure them with screws and lock washers. I successfully tapped one for 2-56 (#50 drill bit); then figured if a little is good, maybe a lot is better and tried a 3-56 (#45 drill bit). Although the 3-56 worked, my current thinking is to try a #53 drill bit with the 2-56 tap to get a really snug fit for the screw. I would prefer to leave as much meat in the connector as possible, and the screw is more of a lock than a load-bearing component. The important part is I can finish my design for the battery box, and busbars, and get the parts and materials ordered.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Double-checking myself, while waiting for parts and supplies to arrive. I wanted to be sure that the starter/generator motor wasn't compromising a critical characteristic of this concept. I want to develop musclebikes that can turn, and are a joy to put through the paces on winding roads. Besides the geometry, one of the key elements of this is having enough clearance to actually bend the bike over in a turn. I needed to make sure Scrape could still hit its targeted 40-degrees - yup!  The starter/generator is just barely kissing the digital asphalt here, but I think I'll be able to tuck in it a bit tighter towards the center line of the bike. I'm also planning on a Kevlar and/or Ti slider on its lower outside edge, to facilitate repeated excursions to the bike's lateral limits. 40-degrees of lean right there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

These little gems just took a long boat ride here from the UK. It was just cheaper to purchase them, than do the CAD, and machining to make them. Beautifully machined from surgical grade stainless. I'm still going to do a little _Toddification_ - need to open the center hole up a tad for Scrape's huge primaries.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm still having the same issues with services and collaboration here in Columbus, so Nic and I had a long meeting yesterday to re-plot our course a bit to eliminate as much dependence on local talent as possible; until we begin forging relationships with more complementary partners from outside this metro area. They have a different way of approaching things here, and don't have much interest in venturing outside that box. We are equally determined to not compromise our mission, one iota...

By changing the rear suspension, we'll be able to fit a conventional (read simply purchased) motor controller under the DC motor and swingarm. I think we're going to start with the new Alltrax SPM 48800. In "race" mode, that will provide up to 920 amps of current. The low voltage ceiling isn't a concern with the hybrid drive, though that still translates to 80mph, with the gearing I plan to run. A mildly modified Zilla should fit in the same space, when we start going for the big numbers.

Squat popped in the office to help me sort out the new center pivot and shock linkage design; and a double-adjustable GSXR rear coil-over is on the way. As soon as I am sure of the design, I will develop CAD drawings and we'll have the parts laser or water jet cut, then finish them up with some good old fabrication work. So far, I have a 33% increase in shock travel at 2" of bump.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New toys, I mean parts and supplies, have arrived. We'll be back at it this week. Goal is to have the V-twin top mounts done, and Scrape rolling around again, before July departs. Hopefully, with the 2-1 exhaust header in place. Next month, we start on the main drive, and hammering out that crazy muffler...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More stuff. 16ga 304 stainless steel sheet for hammering-forming the muffler; 0.375" steel plate for making the muffler hammer forms; 0.125" copper plate for the battery pack busbars; 0.625 x 0.065 wall 304 stainless tube, for primary flange nut *dimples*; GSXR 750, double-adjustable, rear shock; pricey, but awesome (made by ARP) stainless exhaust studs, with 12pt nuts; the correct size V-band clamps and flanges for the primaries; the stainless steel exhaust valve; and a couple inches of of 5" o.d. x 0.75" wall aluminum tubing for the ECU mount/fairing.











These are so awesome. A solid billet, stainless steel clamp, will squeeze each two-piece primary tube together. This allows easier assembly and dis-assembly, and better overall fitment.













The exhaust valve will divert spent gases into the muffler for normal usage, and facilitate the straight-through, unrestricted, race mode. Still on the way is the little stepper motor that, ultimately, the ECU will signal to control this valve. It came with a vacuum solenoid, that I removed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bump... (to a fresh page)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cut wooden test parts for the rear suspension on CIF's laser to verify that the geometry was correct. Making a real-world model, instead of testing in CAD, allows me to also use the test parts to check fitment on the actual bike. I had the lower linkage pickup point wrong and had to move it back about an inch (copied the wrong point from the CAD model).












With that fixed, I could give it a test - passed with flying colors! 








That let me move forward with the CAD work for the actual parts. I was able to remove almost a pound and a half from the part. These will be laser or water jet cut from 0.500" 4130/40 steel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The center pivot plates on the bike. There aren't any crossmembers in it yet, or obviously the rest of the linkage. Ignore my kinky chain, that's missing at least half of its pins. I'll fix that eventually...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think this is where we're going with the shock linkage. The two plates will be joined with three tubular crossmembers. The bottom two reamed for a precision fit for the pivot pins or bolts, and the middle hole gets a thinner gauge tube. Ideally this assembly would be titanium, but the weight savings would only be 1-1.5lbs, so we'll probably settle for 4130/40 until things get serious enough to justify spending that much extra for a pound...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The little stepper motor finally found its way to Columbus. We have to machine a new mounting plate for it, and weld it to the valve, in place of the round vacuum actuator mount. It will also get some type of spacer/thermal isolator to shield it from the exhaust heat. Now, we can dive headfirst into the exhaust build.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I popped in Great Machine today, to work on Scrape's exhaust, and meet Nic there to hash out some new madness we're considering. I found Curt babysitting the Fadal CNC that had Scrape's motor mount billet and tooling setup. I bolted for the door of the machine and, sure enough, it was drilling holes in that plate! 












Before I could get started on the exhaust, this was handed to me, resetting the course of my evening.













I carefully machined the slots in the bushings for a slight interference fit, and eventually had the rear upper mount in place. If he has time, Eric plans to cut the front plate tomorrow. Whenever he gets to it, I'll get that one worked out and then Curt will stitch them together (TIG).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Honda IMA motor will not be joining the Scrape party, as the starter /generator motor. It started with me looking for ways to cut our dependence on local resources. In the process of reworking the plan, I found out how much cleaner, more efficient, and more effective, the whole concept is without that motor. A more prominent 3-disc dry clutch for the V-twin-to-traction-motor connection will replace the starter/generator, adding even more technological sophistication. On-board battery replenishment will be handled either by a completely new AC traction motor, or by a really small (probably PMAC) motor tucked under the V-twin. Starting duties, for the V-twin, will be handled by the traction motor - in true racebike style "bump" starts!  We favor making the jump to an AC traction motor, but are still hashing out how that fits in the project's budget. TBD...













A couple really neat fringe benefits are lighter overall weight and increased cornering clearance. I'm shooting for 350lbs, dripping wet, as a long-term goal. Cornering clearance will be a very awesome 50-degrees! A musclebike that can dip like a throughbred sportbike. 










As for the Honda IMA motor - we have plans for that. One of the next bikes we build will be a (road course) track bike version of the platform for Nic. The IMA motor, with a small, possibly turbocharged, V-twin or single seems perfect...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Eric got the other mount cut yesterday, so I drug myself to the shop to slot the bushings and fit it. Curt was ready to stitch these together, but I decided to wait until Monday. Sorry for the horrible pic...












Then, I notched the tank a little more to clear the mounts. Someone asked me how much work it's going to be to form the inside of the tank, and my reply was that we weren't going to talk about that! 












Shop glamour shot. It's still down 1.5" in the front, but really starting to gel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

He's being a little stingy with the pics, other than this teaser, but Nic has the Tilton clutch in hand, literally. This little bugger, capable of handling race-level V8 power and torque, will connect Scrape's two drive systems, on demand. It's downside is it doesn't offer the smooth progressive control of street-oriented clutches; it's more like an on/off switch. That's all we need, because the electric drive provides all the silky smooth, seamless, acceleration imaginable. When the Tilton is "on", Scrape is all about violence and brutality.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt stitched the upper V-twin mounts together today. They fit perfectly, so I just need to make the frame mounts for them. I forgot to take pics though.

In the meantime, I raised the front back up to ride height, to make sure everything looks right. I plan to leave it like this until we need to verify clearance on that front primary tube. The issue is making sure all the parts and pieces going on the bike are oriented properly at ride height.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The back side of the Tilton clutch, showing the button flywheel; and the rotor from the V-twin's old charging system. That little cup on the back of the rotor will be removed, and the rotor itself turned down, and drilled with the button flywheel's mounting pattern. The size is pretty much perfect.












Here are all the components in the order of assembly: (first row, left to right) rotor that will become the flywheel to crankshaft adapter, bolts; (second row, left to right) button flywheel, clutch disc, steel plate; third row, left to right) clutch disc, steel plate, outside cover with diaphram spring still bolted in. Awesome quality - I'm very happy with this decision.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The upper mount assemblies. The frame plates are 0.1875" mild steel, as on the rear mount. Later, I will countersink the mounting holes in the aluminum plates, for flathead screws. Tomorrow Curt does his thing, and the big V-twin is finally locked in. I still have to do the front mount but will likely wait a bit for that.












Up close and personal with Curt's stitchery.













Ready to be TIG'd to Scrape's frame. I continued the theme of domed nuts, by turning the hex off two SS 10M x 1.50 acorn nuts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Curt stitched the steel plates for the V-twin's upper mounts to Scrape's frame yesterday, officially making it one with the package. The DC motor and the V-twin had to come out for welding, which also gave the whole system a test. Dis-assembly/assembly is a breeze, as long as the order of electric motor out first/in last is observed. The bolts are all easily threaded by hand, even without the aluminum mount holes being reamed to final spec. That makes me happy. 

With the hybrid drivetrain in place, my attention this weekend turns to gaining better control over the project. I need to design around the network of suppliers currently available to us, to maintain our minimum standards, and develop effective stepping stones to better resources. One of the next hurdles are the new chain adjusters. I've sketched out a plan for 2-2.5D CNC cut, and fabricated, adjusters that should maintain the minimum levels of strength, aesthetics, and quality, we need; without jumping down another rabbit hole of stress and disappointment. Ideally these will be cut from 0.500 and 0.250" titanium plate, with some manual machining and forming, then TIG welding. The adjusters would likely be turned stainless. I just need to confirm that said available resources are up to the titanium challenge. The adjusters will slip into the aluminum swingarm tubes, and be secured with stainless bolts. Besides the obvious titanium/stainless/aluminum visual feast, the point (in Scrape's case) is that they can be swapped for longer extended wheelbase adjusters for top speed and quarter-mile runs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still deep in my (digital) pencil-n-paper, vision-oriented, weekend, I started sketching again to figure out where I'm going with the new fairing. It's new role, in the big picture, has the added function of protecting (and displaying) the ECU. It will be a hand machined and fabricated aluminum frame, carrying a light smoke-tinted polycarbonate windscreen. Here's a peek at the basic design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Digital pencil still scratching away and, with my focus pretty locked in on _the bigger picture_ this weekend, I decided to see what the Ferrari Corsa red frame looks like with the hybrid. I did this in SketchBook, on my iPhone, so it's just a sneak peek; there will be better Photoshop renderings of this idea later. I also used a grainy, over/under-exposed, and retouched, iPhone pic as a canvas, because I like this view of Scrape. Tank would be bare metal, with H1-E graphics, and really deep, multiple, coats of clear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Focus on the fabrication here, ignore what it's for.  Stainless tubing is so awesome to work with. Exercise patience, get good fitment, and it just looks like a million bucks.












Now it's time for the ram's horn primary tubes. Sorry, again, for the blurry pic - I can never seem to remember to take my camera...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Being out Monday playing in the pollen, ragweed, city smog, and shop stuff, produced tangible results in this allergy kid Tuesday. As a result, _breakfast_ was two aspirin over-easy, Benadyrl, and coffee. That set the stage for me to get completely lost in CAD, the entire day. For some reason, my attention turned to the gas cap. Fueled by the fact that I have been hovering far too close to _normal_ recently, I was determined to do something purely aesthetic, that even a 5-axis mill might choke on, so a 3D printed metal piece was the target. Then, I remembered that I had already modeled something close to the image I had in my head. I dusted off PackRat's old motor meter and dug in. I shaved the over-the-top silly stuff (cityscape, lightning bolt, and P & D letters) and added gear teeth around the perimeter, to work like a knurled grip. The bezel that this fits into will have another gear that meshes with the cap's teeth, creating a very unique locking system. I used AutoDesk's Fusion 360 to render this, for a more photo-realistic metal finish. For some reason Shapeways software is seeing and correctly stuff on the "T" that isn't really there, so I have some troubleshooting left to do. It isn't cheap either - like $175 in polished nickel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Gas Cap v1.1. I scaled it down from nearly 3 inches in diameter, to just under 2 inches. Thinking about how narrow Scrape's tank is, and the fact that there is supposed to be a bezel around the cap, it would have been out of proportion. Before my batteries expired last night, I realized that the problem I was having in Shapeways was likely their software seeing the _history_ of surfaces I had trimmed or modified. The PackRat version had a knife-edged, outlined, T that I capped, but the original T was actually under there. This version isn't loading properly yet - hence the little bizarro biscuit (from the Shapeways site) in the upper right corner pic. The only repairs it wants to do are on the tips of the T's 'fangs'; which is understandable/acceptable. I can hand finish those. I think the cap over the top is being caused by another trimmed surface. No idea why the gear teeth aren't there? I will attempt to fix all that and get a working model to print from in Shapeways system. Fringe benefit: the price is down from $176 to ~$100.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Fabrication pic: We made a lot of progress on the ram's horns today. Here's a shot of the front horn getting started. Pic of the two horns on our website (sparing the ICE backdrop here).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The rear ram's horn cut, fit, and tacked in.












And a knee-high view of the developing little racebike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Geez, this was a fight, but I eventually won the battle!  I had to literally go through the entire design, identifying issues, and recreating the surfaces that were causing problems in the 3D printer software. It was a grueling process of upload to Shapeways, wait for it to finish analyzing and loading the part, then run it through their correction process to see what it had issues with and how it attempted to fix them. You can see the only remaining problem areas, the T's fangs, in the blue sections on the green cap (lower right corner). I also used software for Columbus Idea Foundry's Form Labs 3D printer to double check Shapeways' findings here on my laptop.

Even though it worked perfectly before, the rippled surface was causing the top of the model to end up capped. I couldn't remember how I originally created it, so today I dug in and developed a new technique, and new rippled surface. The original was kind of haphazard, and non symmetrical. It was just a trick I accidentally discovered (and forgot). The new surface is a deliberate attempt, and is perfectly symmetrical.

Now that that battle is finally behind me, I can start working on the mounting holes. My evil master plan is to create three splash-flanged, counterbored, holes in the center dome that look like the bolts were plunged into molten metal... I'm also going to experiment with sticking brads in the fangs of the T, to make it look like it was tacked on. If that works, I might consider printing it separately, in a contrasting metal, and actually attaching it to the cap like that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Before I allow myself to get lost in creating those splash-flanged screw counterbores, I decided to start working on the assembly. I created a generic stand-in for the smaller gear, that will be the key component in the locking mechanism. It will, of course, receive the normal _Todd-level_ of detail later. Then, I started hashing out the bezel. As it is here, the top surface is thicker than necessary to allow hand profiling to match the compound curvature of the tank's upper surface. I'm still debating with myself whether I want to do that by hand, matching the bezel to the tank; or model the bezel to the desired shape and match the tank's sheetmetal to it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes, more CAD fuel cap love!  Starting to develop the locking mechanism. Can you guess where I'm going with this?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Glamour shot. I get razzed a lot at the shop because I am often found sitting and just staring at Scrape, instead of actively working on it. I have this thing in my head, that is the reason Scrape even exits; the bigger picture. I pose the bike a lot and sit and stare, to see how well that vision is being realized, and what needs to happen to make it so.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little more machine work was knocked out today. I turned two of the four v-band flanges, to open them up to match the 2" I.D. as the primary tubing. Two down, two to go.












Fringe benefit: they're about half the weight of the original.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First draft of the little duckbill release lever. I have to stare at this, think it through, and make some decisions on how far I want to go in modeling, versus printing it and doing some of the final fitment and detailing _live_, by hand. I really should stick a scaled digital coin in one of these renderings to give people a clue how small this is (and ridiculous I am )!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little shop porn to kick the week off, and thank the community here for *TWO-HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND VIEWS!!!* (In spite of the many twists and turns that come from riding with an obsessive nut like me!)

This was me turning the V-band flanges last week


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The initial sketch was a starting point. The next step was to reverse engineer what exists, with Scrape's current parts and stance, and with the swingarm that was cropped. From there, I drafted the hard points onto poster board, then did some sketching to develop a real pattern. Now, I pull this into CAD and start hashing out the actual model. The bolt on adjuster would allow for a 0-3" wheelbase stretch, without affecting geometry or ride height, and could be swapped for even longer extensions as needed. We want to do these in titanium, so I need to get the CAD settled to get quotes on machining.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First CAD model. I still have the mounting holes to add, and see areas I can remove material without compromising the integrity. It's 1.56lbs in Titanium right now, and I think I can get it down to a pound; or at least very close. I need to actually weigh them to verify, but that might be around half the weight of the aluminum eccentric adjusters they replace. My initial idea was for three separate pieces, that would be welded together. The main sections cut from 0.500" Ti, and the curved upper and lower sections from 0.250" Ti, and then formed. That plan is actually a workaround for the supply constraints we have, but I want to just send this model out and get quotes on machining them from solid billet first. I can see how it can be done with simple 2.5D machining, with a few operations, in 3 setups, and not really a lot of machine time - we'll see if any CNC shops agree...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Version 1.1; down to 1.098lbs. I could probably get that last tenth of a pound, but it's not really worth it, at this point of the build. Titanium, being the featherweight wonder that it is, makes it tricky to find large gains in weight reduction. The three large holes in the Swiss-cheesed tang are the 12mm mounting holes; when combined with all the surrounding lightening holes, they represent a mere 0.06 - 0.07lb reduction in weight. The biggest savings came from reducing the main section width from 0.625 to 0.500", thinning the mounting face that snugs up to the aluminum arm from 0.500 to 0.250", and trimming an inch off the end of the tang. If we go the distance on the racing and engineering goals, those fractions of pounds will begin to add up though; someday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here I grafted the new adjusters onto Digital Scrape. I have been evolving the model along with its real-world counterpart. I stretched the tank and gave it the same forward rake, cropped the fairing, and made it smoked polycarbonate. I still need to model the actual controller and battery cases, when we make a decision on what motor we're going with; and spend some time cleaning up and fine-tuning the model, because I want to import it piece by piece into Fusion 360 someday and do a real photo-realistic render.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little break to clear my head, while working on a client's project. I added a little extra detail to the duckbill release lever of Scrape's fuel cap. There's more surface work under the bottom (I'll know it's there), a little ridge down the top of the beak, and some smoothing in the transition into the pivot ball. A little perspective - this entire piece s approximately 1.375" long!  Then, I did a first draft of the cam-action surface on the bottom. This will evolve as the mechanism develops.












Here's a first peek at how said mechanism will work. The smaller gear is a stationary lock, sort of like the parking pawl in an automatic transmission, but a full round gear for the aesthetic. When the lever is flipped up, a rocker arm will raise the spring-loaded fuel cap; clearing its teeth from the smaller gear, and allowing it to be turned and removed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I needed the rear axle to finish the design for the adjusters. The ZX7 wheels we're moving to have 25mm axles front and rear; quite a substantial difference from the 15mm ZX6 and 17mm GPZ900 front and rear axles, respectively. What's really awesome is we'll also being shaving a little more weight, as this hollow axle is noticeably lighter than the 17mm solid axle. I'll verify just how much later.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I turned the two remaining v-band flanges today, and Curt tacked two of them onto the ram's horn primary tubes.












Ready to begin stringing the other halves of these. This will make fitment, assembly, and dis-assembly, a breeze; and adds a more spice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In our last strategy meeting Nic and I made the decision that the HPEVS AC motor/controller package is the only thing that makes sense. It just makes the whole concept work better, is much neater, and _awesomer_.  I updated Digital Scrape with generic boxes to represent the Curtis 1238-7601 controller, with a TPD chill plate, and a wraparound battery pack of 20 Turnigy 1S/2P modules. I'm also experimenting with a cropped chin spoiler muffler. The real deal would be much curvier, and nicer; I'm just trying to get a sense of the aesthetic here. First, I need to determine whether there would be enough internal volume, and start developing the actual shape. I'll probably do that _live_ on the actual bike, and reverse engineer the results back into CAD, to check the data.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The axle turned out to be perfect for the adjusters, as they were, so I did a little cleanup work and tweaking to get the model ready to send out for quotes. I had to readjust the positioning of the rear tang; cut a small recess in the exterior surface of the mounting face, so that it matches the profile of the swingarm's rectangular tubing; and added the other lightening holes just for kicks. All of the above netted 0.02 pounds of weight savings, or about one-third of an ounce, per side - woohoo!  None of it was done with the goal of actually reducing the weight of the part - it was for fitment and aesthetics. There is also a small, 0.125", bore in the perimeter rail. That's for chain adjustment. I decided that, since this is a racebike, I would not do the usual scale engraved or embossed into or on the adjustment surface. If you're serious you set adjustment from tire to tire, to make sure they're both pointed in the same direction. We will use a caliper to verify side-to-side measurements, from that little bore to a matching one on the axle adjuster part.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Let's play. We need to open the exhaust head flanges up to accept the 2" I.D. tubing. First step, turn a fixture piece to hold the flanges on the lathe, and allow access to the center bore.












Tack the flange to the fixture.












Chuck it up.












Give it a spin.












Slowly and patiently whittle that hole out to 2.125", so we can do this.












We'll shorten the straight sections to create little flanged nipples, to which we'll add curves and swerves to meet the other half of the primaries - in a future _installment_...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This brand new Richmond Gear input shaft for a Powerglide will become the V-twin's output shaft. It'll be cut down, turned, and machined, to accept bearings on the ends and a chain sprocket.












The output shaft will be driven by the Tilton's clutch discs, when engaged.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I might post a more open question in the appropriate forum, but just figured I would throw this out here first: Any viewers here run HPEVS motors? If so, what kind of tech support and service have you received? Who did you purchase your motor or package from?

I sent an email, almost two weeks ago, asking a few tech questions and have yet to receive ANY reply.  We were actually ready to pull the trigger and submit the order, but I decided to ask a few questions, to make sure we were ordering the best package to serve our needs. It makes me leery of purchasing from a company when support starts off this sketchy. People always rant about _supporting the little guy_, but sometimes the little guy is little because they refuse to provide quality products and services. We've submitted CAD models for quotes on having parts made, and received no reply. We literally have materials collecting dust in suppliers' shops, and no parts (or even communication) coming back. I'm really kind of reaching my limit with this crap, and trying my best to not do and say what I really want to. I know HPEVS has a good reputation here, so I figured I would ask some questions before I make any final decisions.


In the meantime, forgive the ICE intrusion. I love the fabrication work going on here, and wanted to share. I pulled the big V-twin, and reshaped the fins to allow me to finish the exhaust primaries. You can see the rear cylinder sculpting in the main pic, and the front cylinder work in the inset pic.












Curt tacked the straight tubing sections to the flanges, and I cut them down, to create these little nipples.












Here's the front primary getting started. I used heat and a tiny little ball-peen hammer to tighten this radius. The outside edge of the elbow was rolled in, and the inside edge of the nipple was rolled out, to create a smooth, tight, transistion. The point of this is to tuck that tube in a close as possible, for front tire bump clearance.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good Todd. Sorry to hear about your struggle with customer service. I think you should post the question in the appropriate section and you'll get alot of response.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looking good Todd. Sorry to hear about your struggle with customer service. I think you should post the question in the appropriate section and you'll get alot of response.


Thanks Tyler. We're just going to order the freakin thing. I know from others' experiences on this forum that they produce a good motor, and Curtis' reputation is sound, so that's not a concern. I was looking further down the road, and thinking more along the lines of business to business communication and collaboration, but I'll just table that. All of the supplier issues are frustrating, but they also make it easy for me to narrow the field down. Over the past 6-1/2 years, I have developed a list of people and companies that I have ruled out doing anything with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's official - Scrape is going AC!  Barring any problems with production or supply, our little HPEVS/Curtis kit is in the works, and hopefully on the way in a matter of weeks. It was the motor's torque characteristics, combined with the ability to regen/charge in one neat, tidy, little package that sold us on it. In what we call "Mild Race" form, Scrape will have ~100lb-ft of torque from 0 RPM, out to redline, ~200hp (combined), and weigh-in under 400lbs. A nice start on our way to 350hp/350lbs...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the exhaust header all tacked together, I want to step back from it, stare at it, and be certain, before Curt starts stitching it together; so I turned my attention to the fairing. Using the four-jaw chuck, I centered the 6061 ring on the lathe and started whittling. After facing it, and skimming the inner and outer surfaces true, I used a radius tool to roll the front edge.












Then, I cut the flange for the polycarbonate screen to sit on, and rolled the surface away from that lip. I want people to be able to find the details through the light-smoked screen.












Not shown here, I had to open up the inside diameter to fit around the headlights, and rolled that surface away from the larger diameter. After I had the shape where I wanted it, I cut the ring off with a parting tool, split it in half on the vertical bandsaw, and did a little preliminary machine work to fit around the light bracket on the Bridgeport. Good equipment and tools make easy work of realizing dreams.  Next, I will turn the Bat-T center light ring, and start fitting these for Curt to tack them. I'm going to mill the tapered, and flanged, side rails on the Bridgeport, and then hammerform them to shape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was ready to run to GM, and dive headfirst into the fairing frame again today, but when I started thinking through what I wanted to do I realized I needed to do a lot of thinking and planning first. I had this little piece of 6061 bar stock, that was already partially turned from some of the other bits and pieces made for Scrape. My plan was to do a few quick operations on it, fit the headlight rings to it, and have Curt tack the three together. I really want to 3D print the Bat-T lens, so I created a quick model to see if Shapeways would say, "go for it!" They did but, of course, I started seeing possibility.  I needed more real estate, so I decided to make a new ring. Using a scrap piece of aluminum I located the best center, punched it, and drafted a couple circles, and dove back into CAD to play.












I added the rippled surface from the fuel cap, this time bent-over around the perimeter of the little button, punched a few counterbored mounting holes in it, and uploaded the new model to Shapeways. I was pleasantly surprised to get a thumbs-up again, and the price (in "Frosted Extreme Detail" plastic) is only ~$17.  This is a definite _go_!  I want to partially fill the T with something. The options are some color translucent resin, or metal. If metal, the options are metal powder filled resin (cold metal cast), or 3D print a real metal T. Just so you know that I am still nuts, this entire piece is only 1-inch in diameter.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Einstein was thought nuts for years after he past but is revered now Todd! Don't sweat it. Looks great.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Einstein was thought nuts for years after he past but is revered now Todd! Don't sweat it. Looks great.


Thanks Tyler. 

Years ago, a very successful businessman and hotrodder gave me some advice. He said (paraphrased), you have to choose whether you want to do extraordinary things now and possibly only be appreciated post mortem, or do things that will gain the acceptance and praise of your peers now. His intent was to nudge me towards normality and more immediate gratification.

I quietly bobbed my head in acknowledgement of the wisdom of his words, and set my gaze upon the afterlife.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Shapeways is condoning and supporting my nuttiness. Yesterday I popped in GM for a bit, and one of my short tasks was to document the profile of the radius tool I plan to use on the Bat-T light ring. In the process of laying out the design for that ring, I wondered whether I could downsize the lens - yes. It's now 0.8125" in diameter, just a bit smaller than a nickel (U.S. currency coin - 0.835" or 21.21 millimeters)!  No issues with printing it in Frosted Extreme Detail plastic, and that diameter allows me to sink it fully into the fluted ring - so be it.  The jagged edges on the T are just Fusion trying to figure out how to render the frosted glass lens, set in the aluminum ring.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I turned my attention away from this over the weekend to be able to take a fresh look, and make sure I really liked it - yup. So today, I laid out the coordinates for drilling the center and lens mounting holes, and cutting the big radius, on the Bridgeport. By programming it, the servos lock the mill in place, ensuring better accuracy. After the basic machine work is done, it goes on the lathe to, turn the external diameter, blend the inside surfaces a little, turn the front radius, and then match the stepped flange on the headlight rings for the screen mount. Simple.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I squared the little chunk of 6061 up, zeroed in on the spot I had center-punched, plugged those coordinates into the Bridgeport today, and set my little plan in motion. I drilled the center through hole, bored (pocket mill operation) the lens mounting flange, and then drilled the mounting holes. The Bridgeport was flawless, precisely punching those impossibly tiny holes a hair off the perimeter of the through hole. Riding on that success, I cut the rolled reflector surface, knocked the corners off the little block, and headed for the lathe.












Fast-forwarding to the here-and-now, I matched the outside to the headlight rings, blended the internal surfaces, and walked away with a perfect Bat-T light socket. Next, I fit these three together, have Curt tack them, and turn my attention to the machined and hammer-formed side rails...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Picking up where I left off: I suffered some self-inflicted (spilled coffee, again ) computer issues last week. It was Wednesday evening and I was just about to post the progress Curt and I had made on the fairing. I used the vertical bandsaw, and electric die grinders, to cut-n-fit the headlight rings to the Bat-T light ring, and Curt tacked them together












On Scrape.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I used the vertical bandsaw, and electric die grinders, to cut-n-fit the headlight rings to the Bat-T light ring, and Curt tacked them togetherOn Scrape.


Cool looking EyeBrows!
Groucho Marx would be impressed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Cool looking EyeBrows!
> Groucho Marx would be impressed.


 Thanks Ken. 


I also started machining the side rails last week. Starting with a 12" long piece of .750 x 1.5" 6061, I cut a step in each side to match the width and depth of the windscreen flange on the headlight and Bat-T rings. Then, I flipped it over and ran a .375" radius corner rounding end mill down each side to match the radius on the rings. The chatter marks you see are because I ran it by hand instead of programming it. I should have let the servos provide a slow consistent feed, and smooth cut. These things are going to be cut, heated, hammered, and sanded, so I'll clean the marks up in that process. The next step is to run a diagonal pass, with a .750" straight end mill, through the center of the bare, which will yield two tapered, rounded, flanged, rails.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is the waterproof, metal, USB port for connecting to the MS3 ECU. It will be incorporated into the fairing, along with the ECU.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We purchased a factory Harley intake manifold to begin developing our own. It saves the trouble of machining, cutting, fitting, and welding the initial bends out of the heads; and provides the factory engineered precise locations for the injectors. We'll be running much larger injectors, to support the nitrous injection, but will fabricate fixtures to locate the new bungs from these. The jagged Sharpie line is where this manifold will be cut off and our new version will begin. Ours will roll up into a plenum, and poke a drive-by-wire throttle body out the cool (left) side if the V.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had this first pic cued up (in preview) and ready yesterday, but evidently forgot to click submit! 

I’m a big-picture type, who has learned to focus on the trees. Because Scrape is an evolving vision out of my head, the details are abundant and ever-present. When I look at it I see what needs to be done, in hundreds of small areas, to finish the painting. To help snap my brain back into the forest view, I do little tricks like this. Fade and blur the background, highlight it with quickly scratched outlines and a few scant features. When I look at this, I see the original vision in my head, and can better judge how well Scrape is living up to it – stunningly. 













With the HPEVS/Curtis kit making its way across the country, I am turning some of my attention to the new motor mount. HPEVS gave me a nice push in the right direction, by making a SolidWorks model of the motor available. The DC motor is mounted to Scrape's frame, but I want to mount the new AC motor directly to the V-twin, like the transmission would normally be. Its mount will bolt to the big rear mount that Great Machine carved out for us. I need to pull some measurements from real-world Scrape to confirm, but it appears that I will have ~0.250" between the rear mount and the motor case, which screams titanium to me, but we'll see...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First thoughts on the actual motor mount. Picking up on the planned aesthetic for the clutch cover, and the pocketed rear V-twin mount, I extruded this 0.750″ thick mount. This would be an aluminum mount, with a folded, 0.250" main plate welded to the webbed motor face plate, and a SS band clamp near the other end. The point is to channel the torque reaction into to big mount. To that end, there would also be an anchor bolt, in a turned boss, passing through into the steel frame mount. I need to check clearance for that though because that section is folded back on real-world Scrape.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks very smart Todd. I'd say you have plenty support there because the v-twin will also spread the torque load to the front mount and brace over the length of the chassis. Key for me is the number of interfaces and how securely they locate. I'd be tempted to have 2 dowel pins at each interface or similar functionality through a boss feature to the frame. To eliminate any movement under max torque since you are combining ICE and EV loads through the ICE mounts now.



My 2c for free. Looks good though and we'd probably both over engineer the whole thing if nobody else reins us in.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Just wondering, have you considered future scaling up of the EV to say the Remy motor? I don't see how you'd package it in. What about leaving room for an ac-75?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Looks very smart Todd. I'd say you have plenty support there because the v-twin will also spread the torque load to the front mount and brace over the length of the chassis. Key for me is the number of interfaces and how securely they locate. I'd be tempted to have 2 dowel pins at each interface or similar functionality through a boss feature to the frame. To eliminate any movement under max torque since you are combining ICE and EV loads through the ICE mounts now.
> 
> 
> 
> My 2c for free. Looks good though and we'd probably both over engineer the whole thing if nobody else reins us in.


Thanks Tyler.  Just wait until you see the rest of this mount!  I'm going to start calling the big mount a mid-mount, instead of the V-twin rear mount, since both will now hang from it. There will be dowel pins in this e-motor mount to the mid-mount, and the mid-mount will have dowel pins between it and the V-twin. I am not planning to do dowel pins between the aluminum frame mounts and the steel frame mounting plates yet, because all those mounts are designed to work against each other, and in multiple directions. I've seen less on all-out drag cars with massive slicks and wheelie bars, so I really don't expect any significant movement there. We're trying to feed all that torque through a tiny contact patch... If it does, we'll be able to see evidence of it in the mounts (race vehicles have a habit of coming apart and going back together quite often), and I'd make the necessary adjustments then. As they are, in addition to working against each other, the mounts all have really close tolerance mounting hole diameters, so the screws actually serve as pins - and they still thread in easily by hand. I can also go with shouldered screws, and ream the holes to fit as tightly as possible.






tylerwatts said:


> Just wondering, have you considered future scaling up of the EV to say the Remy motor? I don't see how you'd package it in. What about leaving room for an ac-75?


The Remy is too big and too heavy but, yes, we have an eye towards scaling up the electric motor in the future. There are a couple motors in existence or under development that are the same physical size and weight of this motor, with much more power. The issue is they're in the five figure range, and not available to the general public. Our hope is to begin to establish new relationships as we roll the bikes out and start producing more of them. One interesting intermediate option would be to work with HPEVS on a semi-proprietary version of this motor, wound for higher voltage, and setup for liquid cooling.

The AC-75 is way too big, and too long. These motors (both the DC and the AC) are only ~10" long.



On this note - we have the motor and controller now!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's first stage rocket motor - 100lb-ft from ~0rpm to 2500rpm, in which time stage two will have reached the same torque output, or more; then stage three. HPEVS AC-12 motor and Curtis 1238-7601 AC motor controller. We'll use this little Curtis SpyGlass gauge for while to keep track of the e-motor's _situation_. Obviously, I've already started tweaking the AC-12, by removing the fan cover. Didn't have the right hex wrench at home to pull the fan but it's a goner. This puppy will be force cooled.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

AC-12! I thought for some reason you were using a much bigger model, sorry about the confusion Todd.

What you need is a switched reluctance motor of the same size but much higher peak performance and resilience to abuse! Let's get designing one! Could even use the ac-12 stator as the basis and build a new rotor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> AC-12! I thought for some reason you were using a much bigger model, sorry about the confusion Todd...


Yup, the little guy from HPEVS! 




tylerwatts said:


> ...What you need is a switched reluctance motor of the same size but much higher peak performance and resilience to abuse! Let's get designing one! Could even use the ac-12 stator as the basis and build a new rotor.


Not for a while. In hybrid speak, the electric motor in Scrape is for _torque fill_. It provides all the torque needed to accelerate from a standstill, and will be able to move the bike around quite briskly at _normal_ speeds. As it will be geared initially, this motor should be good up to highway speeds, and really strong at surface street speeds. From there, and anytime more is needed, I have that huge V-twin ready to grumble to life and take over; and then nitrous oxide for when more is just not enough.

I think it will take quite a while before I am looking for more from the e-motor. Eventually, we will get to that point, but not soon...






With the real AC-12 motor in hand, I realized that some of my assumptions about what I was seeing in the CAD model were wrong. What I thought were through holes in the C-face mount (for the bolts that hold the motor together) are the actual mounting holes. I thought the mounting holes were in the four counterbored sockets I love the fact that this mounting face has those sockets, because that will allow four rather large dowel pins to carry the torque, instead of the mounting bolts. Their function is totally isolated. That means I need eight lightening slots instead of the four I had previously, to fit between four mounting bolts, and four dowel pins. I brought the (proposed) clutch cover (in position) into this little workshop to get a sense of the two parts together, aesthetically.

In the inset view, you can see the folded 0.250" aluminum plate that forms the main mounting section, with a boss for the lower mounting bolt that will sit in a socket in the mid mount. There will be two more bolts spaced two inches apart, spanning up vertically from that lower bolt. Finally, you can see my huge anchor bolt in the top corner, that will extend through a bosses in the e-motor mount and the mid mount, and into the frame. I added an approximate bend in the mid mount, and it looks like my idea will work. To fail, the folded main plate would have to unfold, and the anchor bolt would have to rip out and/or shear. Not seen, on the other end of the folded plate will be a clamp around the case to keep the AC-12 seated laterally.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A good hex wrench and a puller at Great Machine made quick work of removing the fan. Now the AC-12 is neat and compact, ready for its new home. We'll make a little carbon/kevlar, forced-air, shroud for this end, that will also protect the encoder.












While at Great Machine, I also used gauge pins and the best caliper in the house to pull some data from the DE cap, to make sure the new mount is spot on.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Fresh juice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More work on the AC-12 mount. I did more lightening and aesthetic detail work on the face, and used the data collected from the motor to add the real mounting holes, dowel sockets, and registration groove. This time I created DXF sketches in Rhino, and extruded them into a solid mount in SolidWorks. The motor plate comes in at a feathery 1.5lbs. I think I can keep the entire mount under 5lbs.












I revised the main plate to four _simple_ 45-degree bends, and cut a recess into the motor plate for it. That isolates the weld from carrying the torque introduced to the main plate, from the motor plate.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

very nice CAD. I love seeing your design process.
What batteries did you get? Planning on running any monitoring for those?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tomdb said:


> very nice CAD. I love seeing your design process...


Thanks Tom.  I refer to Digital Scrape, and all the CAD work in it, as the _real_ bike. The physical one, that I call Real-World Scrape, is like a painting of it, that helps others see what I see. 






Tomdb said:


> ...What batteries did you get?...


My coveted Turnigy A-Spec, RC batteries. We have the smallest (1S/2P) modules they make. We'll be running 25 of them in series, for ~96v, and 600a at 100c. They advertise them to be capable of 65-130c, so we'll be pushing them into the middle of that range, at most. Even at max draw, it's a question of how long, and how often, it can actually be maintained on a short wheelbase, wheelie-bar-less, bike - answer, not very.






Tomdb said:


> ...Planning on running any monitoring for those?


Yes. I want to run something to at least monitor low/high voltage on each module. My first thought always goes to Mini BMS, but I haven't checked with him yet to see if they can be set up for 3.7v LiPo cells. My interest in them is because that tiny little board would be very easy to package in my incredibly dense systems. I really need to do some research though to find the best solution, before we take the leap.

As I told Nic, we have our hands full initially with building the busbars, and the actual case... Along wit the million and one other things going on with Scrape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The onslaught of CAD, I mean development of the motor mount, continues. Every so often, I plug this into the "Powertrain Workshop", to get a sense of how everything is working together. Eventually, I'll plug the Powertrain Workshop into the full digital build, but I can see that well enough in my head, for now. I need to check, in CAD, and in real life, how much access I would have to that top rear motor mount bolt, and also the mount's anchor bolt. I want to be able to pull the AC motor individually, and install and pull the whole powertrain module as a unit - something that cannot be done with the current DC motor mount. So far, so good though. This should look pretty intense with the primary chain drive...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've heard there's medicine for people like me. However, I find indulgence in my obsession to be quite therapeutic.  I hashed out the clamp side of the mount today. I have a couple minor details to sort out, but this puppy is pretty much ready for machining and fabrication.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We're also going to make a custom chill plate for the AC-12's Curtis controller. The plan is to drill the Curtis' mounting holes, drill ten coolant passage holes completely through the side, machine pockets for connecting the passages, then use the die grinder to finish the inside radius. The outside radius will be finished with machined plugs that get pressed in and welded. 











After welding the plugs, and tapping the inlet and outlet ports, we'll surface the entire face on the mill to make sure we have good contact with the controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

These are the billet 6061 intake flanges. Nic has the supplies in hand for fabricating Scrape's new manifold, so I figured this would be a nice primer for the coming fab work. I have to get this cut and the first elbow cut, fit, and tacked on to start planning the plenum. It has to clear the injectors and nitrous nozzles, and point the throttle body out of the left side of the V, as well have as much volume as possible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I started a model of the Curtis so I can install it on Digital Scrape, and work on its mount. I put a lot of thought into the cover, and worked off the actual dimensions, so we can do a proprietary cover for it later. I still have to add openings and bosses for the terminal posts, fuse, lights, and the plug, but it's close enough now to help think through producing one. I can compare the weight and aesthetic of various materials, and machine the actual cover, or molds for one, from this model.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

These are the elbows for Scrape's intake. The small one gets split in half, upper and lower center sections cut and bent from aluminum sheet, then a small section or a plenum (if there's room) to aim the large elbow out of the _cold_ side of the V. The nitrous nozzles will shoot the cold gas towards the injectors, into the port.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Kilovac contactor and Magura throttle for the electric drive system. If the throttle response isn't as silky smooth as the Honda TPS-based setup I had on the DC system, we will hack this Magura and put a better pot in it, build a new Honda TPS-based throttle, or find a better off the shelf part.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Rocket fuel pellets. One of the 25 LiPo modules that will power the AC drive. We'll cut copper busbars, and fit 50 of these little bullet connectors to them. Each bullet connector will press into a little socket in the busbar, and be locked with a 2mm screw - after we hand tap each connector.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Packaging: AKA, how to squeeze 100lbs into a 2lb bag. This is the knee-high to an infant view, but should someone be so inclined as to lay on the ground and take a peek... Organic, composite, battery (blue) cases will help blend this all together, and conceal and protect the wiring and cables that connect it all.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Intake fabrication is underway. I split the small bend, and Curt stitched it to the factory intake. Next, I'll cut, bend, and fit filler pieces and Curt will TIG those in to connect the dots.












On Scrape: from here the plenum will start the journey back this way, towards the fresh air.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First impression when trying to do a mock-up with the Buick TB on Scrape, was that it seemed impossible. It was so big and bulky, that I couldn't find a spot on the bike even close to accommodating it. As we wagged our heads in disbelief, I told Curt, "Give me a chance..." After some cutting and grinding, things are looking much better. I cut the mounting flange and removed the cap. Removing the cap revealed the opportunity to trim a lot of fat. The motor is a simple two wire deal - perfect. The TPS sensor was incorporated into the cap, with lots of wiring imbedded into it. The Sharpie lines are to guide the next round of trimming, then lots of die grinder work to smooth and blend it all. I'll design a new billet aluminum cap.












When finished it will essentially be a butterfly valve in a tube, with a drive motor, and a V-band mounting flange.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

FGHbfgh said:


> Possible issue with solid buss bars in that they will transmit vibration to each terminal.


Thanks FGH.

"Busbars" is actually a typo, on my part. These are really just small interconnect bars (+ to -), since we're running 25 modules in series. I still have previous plans stuck in my head, where we would have needed anywhere from three to six modules in parallel, and busbars to join them (and reduce the BMS count).

I'm not too concerned about vibration because this is the same as using solid interconnects on the large format LiFePO4 cells. There shouldn't be much, if any, movement between modules, and the entire assembly will be isolated, as much as possible, from the bike. The bullet connectors also work via spring tension, and effectively a ball and socket mechanical connection.

Sorry for the confusion...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Go big. Or go home.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Bump to a clean page for pics....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back in the home office, with Squat's assistance again, the design process for the single-sided swingarm, to mount this massive chunk of rubber, is underway. I'm almost there on the new geometry, and this big pivot tube is the cornerstone of the design. I want to do some serious housecleaning in this area, and take advantage of the essential swingarm mass to visually _lighten_ the frame and highlight its basic design.


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## Tamber (Jun 29, 2010)

That is... quite a significant chunk of rubber you have there. Are you _sure _it's going to be enough, though? 

(Also, this thread has passed the quarter mile mark! 1320+ replies. It's certainly been a very interesting journey so far. )


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Any bigger and that would be spherical!


Good to see you are still being very restrained in your design work for Scrape!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tamber said:


> That is... quite a significant chunk of rubber you have there. Are you _sure _it's going to be enough, though? ...





Woodsmith said:


> Any bigger and that would be spherical!
> ...


They do make a 360, but I guess I can live with only 13".  I'll make some (slightly less than) hemispherical rubber hubcaps, mounted on bearing/hubs, that will complete the sphere and allow a little extra lean angle. 






Tamber said:


> ...(Also, this thread has passed the quarter mile mark! 1320+ replies. It's certainly been a very interesting journey so far. )


That's a pretty cool stat! Thanks for pointing it out! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...Good to see you are still being very restrained in your design work for Scrape!


Of course - as always!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Man, I've been totally engrossed in this big azz for the past few days.  I spent countless hours working on the single-sided swingarm, but just couldn't come to terms with it. It just takes so much material and work to reach even comparable levels of rigidity, strength, and functionality. One of my goals is to be able to stretch the bike with bolt-on plates, and that just became too complicated with the single-sided arm. With the conventional arm, everything just works, and the desired aesthetic is much simpler to achieve.












The design, either way, hinges (pun intended) on the large diameter, single, pivot tube, central shock linkage pickup plates, and a pretty beefy bolt-on shock linkage frame pickup point. I've been mocking these pieces up in cardboard and poster board, as I get close to the final designs, to get a sense of the design in the real-world. Every piece added has to contribute something to the aesthetic whole, or it goes back to the drawing board.













So far, so good, CAD and real-life seem to agree.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Goal: give Scrape an epic azz that matches it's bountiful bosom. I finally hashed the rest of the swingarm out enough in CAD to do a poster board mock-up. It's hard to capture what I see peeking around my computer at this, but I think I've found what I was looking for. The whole package is big and muscular, and complements the big tube frame.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I found a stainless steel ball on eBay for $1.49 - with free shipping! I need a section of it for Scrape's new, evolving, muffler design. While shipping was incredibly fast (from Hong Kong), the ball I received today was twice the advertised size. Waiting for a reply now, to find out whether they don't understand that the English words diameter and radius have different meanings, or they just shipped the wrong item. And, trying to figure out what I can do with this four-inch ball...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm sure you'll think of something!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

The diameter is optional 

So you got what you purchased


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm sure you'll think of something!


No idea why you would think something like that of me Woody! 





Tomdb said:


> The diameter is optional
> 
> So you got what you purchased


I went back to the original ad to make sure it wasn't my fault, and did notice the word "optional" that I didn't catch when I ordered it.  The subject of the ad is "*1PC Stainless Steel Mirror Polished Sphere Hollow Ball Garden Ornament 5CM 1.97"* - for whatever that turns out to be worth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The latest comprehensive rendering, with the beefier swingarm, and tons of little tweaks here and there. It takes a lot of work to bring it all together. A 330 tire sounds over-the-top but Scrape is, by nature, all about wretched excess. This huge tire really just balances out the madness that is taking place from the big swingarm pivot forward. Those small gray end caps on the swingarm are adjuster plates that slide inside the tubing, allowing extended, titanium, adjuster plates to be swapped in for straight;-line racing feats.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It also seems like the eBay seller is going to correct the mix-up and get me a 5cm stainless ball. They replied right away, and asked for a photo of the SKU from the packaging, promising to resolve the issue.

I still haven't figured out what this 10cm ball is going to become...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> It also seems like the eBay seller is going to correct the mix-up and get me a 5cm stainless ball. They replied right away, and asked for a photo of the SKU from the packaging, promising to resolve the issue.
> 
> I still haven't figured out what this 10cm ball is going to become...


Mix-up in transalation - they don't have a 5cm ball...  They offered to refund 50-cents on this one, lol. I told them no need, I'll just keep this ball at full price, and they'll get a positive rating anyway because their prices, shipping, and customer service, really are all fantastic. 



This has been a long journey but Scrape has finally reached the point that my attention has turned to final finishing. Believe it or not, before I started on this scratch-built thing (a decade ago), at least half of my effort and attention was always spent on final finishes. I've spent quite a bit of my career working with sandpaper, paint guns, polishing supplies, etc. On Scrape, I want to do a lot of black via anodizing, painting, and coating. As much as possible, I would like to use anodizing and smoke-tinted clear coatings to show what the parts are made of, and how they were made (machining, welding, etc). That will all be contrasted with strategic use of natural aluminum, titanium, and stainless, metals. I really want the tank in cleared bare steel, but I am undecided on the fairing (trying carbon here). The electric drive components will likely be at least partially cloaked in carbon, but I haven't started on that yet. The Ferrari Corsa (red) frame, calipers, and tank art, will ice the cake.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The bits and pieces that will become Scrape's muffler, along with the sheet of 304 SS. The four-inch sphere (not surprisingly, for $1.49) turned out to be pretty thin stuff - like 20-gauge sheet metal - but that should actually enhance its function. The halves will be trimmed down a bit more, and used as dimples in the muffler case. My hope is that they'll act like metal speaker cones, and transmit some of the mechanical cacophony happening inside. The remaining bends and straight sections from the main header will turn the flow out of the header and into the case, and make that path obvious from the outside.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thinking about what material and finish I want for the fairing, I decided that it should match the tank. Thinking through hand-forming a perfectly symmetrical steel fairing, I wondered how much it would cost to have it 3D-printed in steel. That meant I needed a suitable model to upload for a quote, which wormholed into a new fairing design. Obviously, I had fun and didn't fully follow the previously beaten path. It would only cost $2000 to print it in stainless steel!  They have the aluminum powder filled nylon option for $125. I need to have something smaller printed in it and see if I can develop a realistic metal finish that looks good with the steel tank. The aluminum cold cast (aluminum powder in clear resin) seat button that Gary cast looked pretty good and many people were surprised to find out it wasn't real aluminum, so maybe. I would add a layer of carbon to the inside, sand and perfect the outside surface, and bury it in satin clear (to match the tank). Maybe some aluminum powder in the first layer of the tank's clear would add a little matching sparkle to it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I know, you guys hate mufflers and the reason they exist - try to see the design and fabrication... 

When the million and one things in your path seem like a mountain, home your sights in on one of them and start knocking it down. Today I chose the muffler design. The inlet will snake right off the down pipe, and turn into the upper-right rear corner. That creates the first chamber in the actual down pipe as the gases hit the bypass valve and bounce back up into the inlet tube. They'll run across, horizontally, in a perforated tube, into a small chamber in the left side, turn 180-degrees into a (lower) parallel perforated tube, then turn out and into the tailpipe. The bottom plate will be flanged and riveted on, to allow changing the packing. That way we can experiment with fiberglass, stainless, and none, to find the best tone. The dimples will be in chambers where the gases change direction, and hopefully pick off and reflect some of the more mechanical combustion sounds. At least that's how it works in my head... Finally, the muffler will _quietly_ double as the front mount for the lower half of the exhaust system; bolting up to the original Harley frame mount locations. I realized that the other three overly-engineered V-twin mounts are incredibly rigid, so the planned front mount is not going to happen unless I find I need it later.













All together now. I think I am going to do a fabricated, triangulated, chrome-moly, round tube, braced, swing arm. Better processes, less chance for time and energy consuming _hurdles_; and I think it balances the bike better aesthetically. Obviously, the adjuster plates are just a rough-in. The bare metal fairing looks much better, and the smaller muffler (purposely) opened up room behind it for the controller's heat exchanger. I think I'm starting to like this thing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Scrape's rear wheel. It makes "wow" spew, involuntarily, from your mouth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After two tire shops, and a couple hours at Great Machine trying stupid tricks, the big 330 tire is still not fully seated. The rim has a hard step that the tire is catching on. It pulls up and over it almost all the way, then that last few degrees of tire bead gets pulled down under the step. Its off to a third shop tomorrow...


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Spray "Starter Fluid" inside the tire, and hit with a flame. POP!! it's on.

P.S.
If you use too much you might have to change you underwear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Spray "Starter Fluid" inside the tire, and hit with a flame. POP!! it's on.
> 
> P.S.
> If you use too much you might have to change you underwear.


That's what this meant:


toddshotrods said:


> ...and a couple hours at Great Machine *trying stupid tricks*...



The problem is the tire bead is actually resting on the edge of that hard step up I mentioned, so to even get the starting fluid in you have to push the bead down. The only way to light it is to wedge something between the tire and rim - creating a nice little projectile. I had that (a socket) aimed at the building (outside wall) but still couldn't get it to light inside.

I've done this before, successfully, but back when I was in my indestructible twenties/thirties. My attitude these days (two or three decades later) is eventually, no matter how lucky you are, the roulette wheel eventually stops on the wrong number - so I quit trying.  Shops have bead blasters that shoot a huge shot of air in the tire (what you're actually doing with the starting fluid). I had this done once, back in my glory days, when even the backyard methods wouldn't seat a pair of drag slicks. The guy laughed, and proceeded to seat the tires with one, safe, calm, blast of air.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Normally I move through life with my thumb on the emergency stop button, to keep myself from plunging headfirst off the high dive because I see some undiscovered potential at the bottom of the pool. I had to force myself to commit to Scrape's new rear end because, as it was, all it needed was a chain and a few batteries to be a functional bike again. After staring at it for a couple hours, and remembering who I am, the right-angle grinder came out, and a little mobile cart was fabricated; paving the way for big things to happen (pun intended)...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cracked one of the Turnigy modules open to feed my brain more info on building the pack. I wanted to get rid of the hard shell cases to allow direct cooling to the cells. What I found inside is perfect for my plans, and even better for the pack connections. We can remove the soldered wires, hole punch the tabs, and bolt the interconnects to them - awesome.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

how are you going to direct cool them? Alumnium to the cells or are you going to oilcool the whole battery?

Pretty long tabs on those puppies, however looks an easy short once the casing is off.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tomdb said:


> how are you going to direct cool them? Alumnium to the cells or are you going to oilcool the whole battery?...


The extreme side of me wants to liquid cool the entire pack, with all the cells being submersed in flowing, non-conductive, fluid. It's an idea I've toyed with before in one of my threads here, but the packs were much larger, and the coolant was pretty expensive (hundreds per gallon, I think). Since Scrape's pack is so small, it's actually feasible now.

That's where my practical side kicks in and questions whether or not it's actually worth the weight and complexity. It's possible that simple air cooling, with adequate spacing between the cells, could be enough. Scrape is, first and foremost, a straight-line race bike. So, the question is how hot am I really going to get these cells in one quarter, half, or whole, mile blast? It is a street-legal race bike, but on the street I am pretty timid; preferring to maintain my clean driving record, low insurance rates, and health. That means I doubt they'll even get that warm accelerating the bike to normal street speeds, with an occasional quick blip for fun...






Tomdb said:


> ...Pretty long tabs on those puppies, however looks an easy short once the casing is off.


Yup and yup. I'll probably make non-conductive shields for assembling the pack to eliminate the likely possibility of making a connection between the two. After the bolts are all snugged to spec, pop the shields off and handle with care while dropping in the box.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

once opened slide some big shrink tube on it, you know just in case.

Also just go with an "transformer oil" not that expensive, submerse all of it including bms, just have the smallest amount of wires going out. Then do a fancy bottom, fins in the direction of airflow, since it will just be an heat buffer and not realy active cooling.

Having a solid alumnium base would also be good, because these puppies need to be clamped down.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with Tomdb.



Todd that rear wheel rim is a monstrosity and must have massive inertial weight. Do you know how heavy it is and how much rwhp you give up spinning it up?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tomdb said:


> ...Also just go with an "transformer oil" not that expensive, submerse all of it including bms, just have the smallest amount of wires going out. Then do a fancy bottom, fins in the direction of airflow, since it will just be an heat buffer and not realy active cooling.
> 
> Having a solid alumnium base would also be good, because these puppies need to be clamped down.





tylerwatts said:


> I agree with Tomdb...


Thanks, I will look into using transformer oil.






tylerwatts said:


> ...Todd that rear wheel rim is a monstrosity and must have massive inertial weight. Do you know how heavy it is and how much rwhp you give up spinning it up?


I haven't weighed it yet, but it's not quite as heavy as you might expect. The current wheel will also be replaced later with a forged race wheel. The first hub I build for it will also be relatively heavy, but will be replaced later with a lightweight version.

I'm gaining weight in the near-term, but have plans to reduce it to less than what the original motorcycle wheel and tire combo was. It is admittedly not necessary to have a tire this big, but the heart wants what the heart wants...

For all-out racing, I will use a narrower wheel and tire combo, but that's more for the higher speed ratings available. I doubt there will be much difference in performance numbers. Scrape will, ultimately, have so much power and torque it won't really matter what's back there.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

About the Turnigy's, not really awesome. You payed more per cell than buying single loose cells and probably worse quality. Then you have to modify them by getting rid of all the expensive stuff like casing and soldered cable.
I will get a link for the cells that Chris Jones used in Voltron.
They are single ended like the Turnigy's so will be immersible.

Now for that rear wheel. Have you ever ridden a bike with a wheel like that ? Seen how hard drag bikes are to turn, almost as bad.
It will make the bike impossible to turn because of the massive leverage required to lean the bike over. It will want to go straight ahead. They are purely for show. 
I have actually put narrower 180 tires on my R1 (normally 190 200) and the bike was quicker to change angles between corners.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I found a stainless steel ball on eBay for $1.49 -


 that's about 5 inches diameter, 8.66kg at $1 a kilo at the scrap yard. You made a profit !


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> About the Turnigy's, not really awesome. You payed more per cell than buying single loose cells and probably worse quality. Then you have to modify them by getting rid of all the expensive stuff like casing and soldered cable.
> I will get a link for the cells that Chris Jones used in Voltron.
> They are single ended like the Turnigy's so will be immersible...


Too late now, we already bought them. I've been talking about using these exact modules for years and no one said don't buy them, so we did. My plan was to use them as they were, using the hard cases, and sockets - then I decided to explore what's inside.

Nothing left to do now but see how it goes...






RIPPERTON said:


> that's about 5 inches diameter, 8.66kg at $1 a kilo at the scrap yard. You made a profit !


Four inches, and it's hollow, and really thin sheet metal - so it weighs a few ounces.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

better late than never.

http://www.herewin.com/en/ProductShow.asp?ID=138


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot:


RIPPERTON said:


> ...Now for that rear wheel. Have you ever ridden a bike with a wheel like that ? Seen how hard drag bikes are to turn, almost as bad.
> It will make the bike impossible to turn because of the massive leverage required to lean the bike over. It will want to go straight ahead. They are purely for show.
> I have actually put narrower 180 tires on my R1 (normally 190 200) and the bike was quicker to change angles between corners.


Scrape IS a dragbike.  Plus, they're not so bad to ride on - except for knee-draggers like yourself. Most of my time on motorcycles was spent on the street on street-legal dragbikes, so this will be quite normal for me.

This looks like fun to me.










RIPPERTON said:


> better late than never.
> 
> http://www.herewin.com/en/ProductShow.asp?ID=138


Thanks, I'll check them out after we wear these out.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

That video "looks" ok but you don't know how much muscle he is putting into the steering to get the lean angle and they are only doing 40mph


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Around the shop stuff. Making a die for a custom fixture to make 2-inch radius bends for our frames. Standard tubing bender dies have a 6-inch radius for 1.625" O.D. tubing. These tight bends will be done red hot, from solid bar stock, with the assistance of CIF's blacksmith and one of his forges. These are for non-race, street-custom, frames so the extra pound or two isn't a big deal.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> Now for that rear wheel. Have you ever ridden a bike with a wheel like that ? Seen how hard drag bikes are to turn, almost as bad.
> It will make the bike impossible to turn because of the massive leverage required to lean the bike over. It will want to go straight ahead. They are purely for show.


Personal Observation:
One of the best reasons to ride a bike is for the Testosterone Buzz.

If you are passionate about saving a hundredth of a second in the corners, a narrower tire will pump up the Testosterone.

If you are more of a visual person, then a big beefy tire can improve the Buzz.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> Personal Observation:
> One of the best reasons to ride a bike is for the Testosterone Buzz.
> 
> If you are passionate about saving a hundredth of a second in the corners, a narrower tire will pump up the Testosterone.
> ...


Part visual/part straight-line acceleration junkie - highly buzzed. 

It's all preference and perspective. These big rounded chopper tires are a thing of beauty. Compared to pulling 65+"wb bikes, with 35-degrees of rake, 6-8" of trail, and some with real square-edged drag tires, around corners Scrape will feel like it trips over its own feet to fall into a corner.

The low CG will probably be as much of a hindrance to effortless cornering as the big rear tire, but _it wants to go straight_ is a positive, a goal even, in this case...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I put a few more passes into whittling the die. Next time, I should have this finished, and be on to machining and fabricating the fixture.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

To maintain my sanity, I am purposely stretching out Scrape's development timeline. My goals, being solidly off the beaten path, make getting simple things accomplished major tasks. I refuse to compromise on them though, because without them there is no point in all this, for me. Scrape is reaching the point where I need a lot of outside assistance, and my version of patience is going to be to step back, breathe, and do something else while I find a way through or around the obstacles. Though the problem is compounded being here in Central Ohio, I am finding that it's really universal - people just like taking the easy way these days.

Something I can control is the rear hub. The first hub will be steel, built as light and strong as possible, but with plans to replace it with something more exotic and much lighter later. I pressed the hub out of a Viper bearing which gives me a head-start on the wheel flange. Now to destroy a bunch of cutting tools whittling it down. I'll turn and machine ends, and a rotor flange, and true and weld them all to a turned and machined piece of tubing. Simple.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After almost four years, Scrape is finally getting new shoes!  That old front tire never held air, and was cracking so bad around the sidewall I wasn't even confident in it for the next parking lot test ride. This Avon 120/60WR17 will guide us comfortably into triple digits.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love this little thing. Radius profile is done, uprights cut and drilled, now it just needs the base and we'll be ready to put it to use. I didn't go crazy with the radius surfacing because the bends made in it will be hand finished after forming; and this surface will take a lot of abuse from red hot metal being stretched and formed around it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No Scrape progress to report today, but I am loving my little bender! 

Base plate cut, slots milled, and an adjustable back-stop fabricated from a piece of angle and a couple bolts. Next it gets stitched together and, just because my mom named me _Todd_, I will probably spend some time detailing our little tool; before we bring the fire...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A little fabrication mini series. While doing research for the production bikes, I watched a video that Nic found on Confederate Motorycles, and saw something that has been hiding in plain sight on Scrape - a true dual runner intake. Two short (high RPM-biased) runners that spiral up, and around each other, into the plenum. The first step was to crop the factory intake and get them looking to the heavens.












Curt re-welded the 2" bend I had split in half, I split it back into two pieces the other way, then notched those pieces to fit together. I was able to get the fit I needed without going all the way through, preserving the round inner walls. We need a couple/few more 2" bends to finish the runners.













We tried to pull off a quick tack with not-enough prep, but TIG wasn't having it. We did get it stuck together enough to get a sneak peek at what Scrape's _Evil-Twist_ intake will look like. In addition to better performance, it will also be a perfect complement to the ram's horn exhaust, for those that care to peek under the tank; or catch us with our proverbial pants down (tank off).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The bender is all welded up (haven't done my _Todd_ detail work yet), the bar has been turned - ready for fire!  I didn't go nuts on the final surfacing on the bar stock because it will be finished up after forming, fitting, and welding. The reduced diameter section will fit into the frame's 1.625" tubing, and the chamfer (along with a couple plug welds) will net a deep strong connection. This first bend is actually for Scrape's little brother Squat, but I'm not quite ready to revive that series. I'll obsess over the exact specs over the holidays, while everyone else enjoys their family time, and we should be red hot and rolling shortly after the 1st.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After working on the intake runners a little yesterday, I was chewing through the idea of hammering out a couple fluted sections to introduce them into the plenum, when I remembered I have these. My understanding of basic intake manifold design (without stepping too far into fluid dynamics) is: to maintain velocity the runner should taper down from the plenum to the port, and ideally have a bell mouth that's raised off the floor of the plenum. These would accomplish all of the above beautifully, if the casting are decent enough to weld to...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Happy New Year! We have some changes underway for Scrape's rear, to help get the bike laser-focused on racing. The rectangular tube, aluminum, swing arm is back in play; and I have revised the design for the adjusters. The axle slot is centered in the piece, and it has a boss for a bolt-on brace now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My *claim to fame* is probably my unique blend of art and science; organic design grafted into and onto conventional engineering. It also wreaks havoc with older machines that don't have enough internal memory to hold many tens of thousands of lines of code to machine what look like simple features; and it makes manually machining some parts prohibitive, if not impossible. I like to be versatile, so I decided to take a crack at a version of the adjuster plates with only uniform/standard radii. One that would require as few lines of lines as possible for CNC machining, and even be possible to machine manually, for someone with enough patience to wheel their way through all these arcs. A CNC machine can simply swing from point to point, through simple arcs, rather than stepping through hundreds of points in a varying radius curve. I also simplified and enhanced the design with a shorter tang, a second external boss, and beefier boss support sections. The end result is I like it enough to use this part. It was only possible because it's a simple part, that didn't have a lot of organic curves to begin with. Another fringe benefit is it yielded a relatively significant weight reduction, from 1.41lbs to 1.25lbs, without compromising integrity; no mean feat in Titanium.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The awesomeness of CAD. It's time to get the ball rolling on Scrape's electrical system. We have almost all of the major components, so it's time to figure out where they're going, and how we'll string the entire nervous system together. This CAD rendering allows me to work on the system digitally, share with the rest of the team, print out hard copies, project it on the wall, etc; all to help us sort it out. If I weren't a digital guy, we would just print a couple/few huge versions of this, hang them on the walls, and go crazy with push pins and Sharpies.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

This is cool! You will be able to turn just fine with that tire.. drag bikes have a slick that is square and make turning miserable


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dain254 said:


> This is cool! You will be able to turn just fine with that tire.. drag bikes have a slick that is square and make turning miserable


Thanks dain.  I've ridden both square-edged and rounded drag tires. As long as you understand what you have and use it accordingly, no big deal. I've had just as much fun over the years muscling stretched out, raked, long trail, street-legal dragbikes around as factory style bikes that almost fall into corners - probably more, now that I think about it. 

That being said, there's a change coming up (probably this week) that will make this kind of a non-issue (except with hardcore corner-burners that think any other type of bike is crap).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TPD *kids* latest family portrait.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The titanium billet is in our grubby little paws, with deals in the works to transform it into something special. When most people see random chunks of material, they see nothing special. This is what I see. All the wonders, all the raw potential, they contain; just waiting to be set free.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After all the hubbub over the 330 tire, I ultimately decided to walk it back a bit, to a 200mm tire. One, the more I looked the 330 tire mocked up behind the bike, the more I realized it wasn't right for this project. It belongs on another idea in my head, that I was trying to graft onto this one. Scrape has matured into a focused machine; both dynamically and aesthetically it is a race bike. Secondly, the initial issues with mounting could be (relatively) easily overcome, but the subsequent time and effort required to bring that big tire inline with the bike's weight and performance goals will be much better spent in other areas. Sorry for the crappy pic, but Scrape wanted to show you it's new 200/50ZR17 Shinko "Hookup" azz-end.  It's so soft and sticky it feels like you can dig a chunk out of the tread with your fingernails. Digging them into it does leave little impressions for a few seconds. Good for a dozen burnouts, wheel-up launches, and trips through the timing lights.


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> Scrape has matured into a focused machine; both dynamically and aesthetically it is a race bike.


Its been almost 4 years, 138 pages and ~1400 posts and i saw the race bike drive slower than i can run 

Perhaps less posting would result in more refined and productive work?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

agniusm said:


> ...Perhaps less posting would result in more refined and productive work?


Perhaps my goals are different than those of people watching. Over the almost-_five_ years I have been using Scrape as my creative canvas, a place that _I_ can dream whatever dream _I_ want to dream, and do whatever _I_ want to do (after carefully painting inside the lines on my design clients' projects), this has been an incredibly rewarding and enjoyable experience. The return on my investment has far exceeded my expectations, and I wouldn't change a single second of it.

The method of my madness will most certainly not change. If, however, it has become tiresome and annoying to the community here, I can simply refrain from posting. I'm not looking for pats-on-the-back, atta-boys, or anything else for that matter. I am just sharing because I assumed people think it's interesting enough to view.






agniusm said:


> ...i saw the race bike drive slower than i can run ...


If you, as bipedal human speedster, can run 50 miles per hour, you have quite the future ahead of you! 

The videos of Scrape moving that fast were not shared because the people who recorded them never gave me copies of them (I asked repeatedly). It was also not at its max - I forced myself to stop twisting the grip because I had no oil in the forks. It was probably fast enough to gear it for 100mph, find some obscure class and set a 48v EV MPH "record", which would qualify it as a racing vehicle. We did intend to run it at 48v for a baseline (not so much an official "record"), but changed our minds and decided to shoot for 150mph first.


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

At the end, don't you want something finished and usable? The design and all that stuff could be done CAD with no expense.

Thats what i meant - "i saw bike run slower than i can run", i haven't seen it run 50mph.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This opens a huge can of worms, so I will attempt to summarize and not be my usual long-winded self.



agniusm said:


> At the end, don't you want something finished and usable? The design and all that stuff could be done CAD with no expense...


In a sentence, it doesn't really matter to me whether or not it's finished and usable.

To expand on that just a bit: I have done most of this many times, all the way through to pretty paint and countless miles, or quarter-miles. I live and breathe in CAD now, where I can translate the crazy stuff I (and my clients) see in my (our) noggin(s) so that it can be shared and realized, and as you alluded almost freely (after initial investment). The problem is most people can't really understand the _how_, even when viewing CAD renderings and technical drawings. So, we do it _live_, in real life, and they go, "ohhhh!"  There was a friendly wager at the shop Scrape is being built in now, whether or not the V-twin would fit in the frame, whether the ram's horn exhaust would fit and clear, etc, etc. From experienced mechanics/fabricator/engineers - even though I had already shown them in CAD the stuff would work. I get cool points, respect, and work, when I'm right.

The whole process makes me money, and opens many doors of opportunity for me. As stated, the return (with this project) has far exceeded my expectations.

There will, eventually, be a finished and functional (usable) Scrape, because there is a point coming where I will need it professionally to continue my journey. I can't tell you when that will be. It will be when it needs and happens to be.

So much for brevity... I tried.






agniusm said:


> ...Thats what i meant - "i saw bike run slower than i can run", i haven't seen it run 50mph.


I really tried. A lot of people locally saw it, on a couple/few occasions. My buddy just wouldn't cough up the video of it. He shot it with his Galaxy smartphone - a couple models ago now, the contents of which are buried on some hard drive, somewhere. I just gave up on it.

I was doing blasts around the event, which included out onto the street, and then aiming straight for him until the last second, before barely swerving around him; and two finger panic stops just before meeting a little retaining wall (brakes were utterly amazing due to light weight). Would have been pretty sweet.


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

agniusm said:


> At the end, don't you want something finished and usable?


A lot of people only care about the destination.
Some people prefer the journey.



agniusm said:


> The design and all that stuff could be done CAD with no expense.


A lot of people enjoy traveling by high-speed rail or jet.
Some people prefer to stop, smell, taste, and rearrange the roses.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ken will said:


> A lot of people only care about the destination.
> Some people prefer the journey.
> 
> A lot of people enjoy traveling by high-speed rail or jet.
> Some people prefer to stop, smell, taste, and rearrange the roses.


Or the difference between being raised by Greatest Generation parents, with their priorities, values, and focus. Or getting into custom vehicles before there was a public internet, or cell phones, or social media; and the only way to share with your peers what you had accomplished was to drag it out to a meet, a cruise, a cruise-in, pop the hood and start explaining.

Enter the Baby Boomers (of which I am the last year), and successive generations: the culture now is make a lot of money, pay someone else to do the work, and pretty it all up as fast as possible so people can see your money sparkle. That has trickled down and changed culture, the focus...

I see projects sometimes now with absolutely incredible workmanship that is just raw art and science, full of stories and information from every angle. Then, they have to spray, and coat, and plate, and polish, away as much of the blood sweat and tears that went into it as possible, so it looks "finished" before it's publicly revealed. A few of the big hot rod builders bring projects out in bare metal, under construction, and I get lost in them. Usually when they return the next year, all prettied up, my interest is greatly diminished because the story, the journey, of _how_ has been painted over.


Scrape is a race bike partly because I am obsessed with performance, and partly because a *race* theme allows me to purposely build a raw, ever-evolving, work.

Old dude rant over...


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

The "goal" is in mankind's nature, not the journey. The journey could be enjoyed or not. There is always destination otherwise we still would be chopping with stone axe.
All i waned to say that this project is a stone axe


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

agniusm said:


> ...All i waned to say that this project is a stone axe


Now that you got that off your chest...

296,124 views (139 pages on the next post) with a freakin stone hand ax!  For the next 61 pages, I am thinking of upgrading my hand ax with a hardwood handle. CAD work of the handle, the carefully machined (by my hand ax) socket, and the precision cord welding technique coming soon...


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

Dont limit yourself with 61 go for longer journey, a hundred at least


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

agniusm said:


> The "goal" is in mankind's nature, not the journey.


Yes, I understand that many people feel that way.
But, not all of us.

The journey is not just getting from A to B , but about learning and exploring and bouncing ideas off of others. It is for expressing and creating and putting your own personal touches on it. 

Building something you have never built before can be like reading a new book. While you are reading or building you are completely entertained, but when you come to the end of the book or the end of the build, it can a let down.
Time to start a new book or build and enjoy the next adventure!!


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

It is exactly that. Scientist exploring cosmos to discover, nut just to explore. Expeditions have goals even if it is remarkable journey. Combining chemicals to make a better battery is not for the dake of cooking, there is destination. Mentally ill people might not have that cause they are in sort of boot loop.
I think the man here has not matured hes idea in 5 years for the lack of vision, pacience or he just cant. 
I mean designing and building couple of years and the result is the bike which looks terribly uncomfortable with wrong ergonomics. 
The completion is a reward. Its like working and not getting paid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I know what my problem is...


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## agniusm (Apr 30, 2012)

Nothing against you or what you do. Just cant get my head around this concept. I think I will not get my answer or understand so I will refrain from further posting on your thread. Sorry if I insulted you or made you uncomfortable.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

agniusm said:


> Nothing against you or what you do. Just cant get my head around this concept. I think I will not get my answer or understand so I will refrain from further posting on your thread. Sorry if I insulted you or made you uncomfortable.


No offense taken. It was an interesting conversation.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> I'm not looking for pats-on-the-back, atta-boys, or anything else for that matte


Ive always wondered why both of your motorcycle threads are in the Car section. Yesterday the Dio 50 thread was moved in an hour.

Agniusm, Todd is an artist first, a designer second and there is a lot of deviation away from "electrics" in this forum from many OP's like Jehu's Kombi went on for pages doing body repairs and even I have started rambling on about suspension damping. 

Todd is sure taking his sweetass time making his bike, 5 years to ride point.
My bike took a year and a half to get on track (160kmh) and won its first race by 52 seconds 3 months later. 
Whatever, we just do what we do and we get a buzz from it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, I read with great interest, sharing your vision and dream and living vicariously through you. Please keep sharing sir.


Tyler


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I always look forward to reading new posts from Todd on this and his other threads. I've learned quite a bit from Todd's posts, and always look forward to more. I'm enjoying the journey on both Scrape and Squat and always check for new posts.

I was really looking forward to seeing the Inhaler project though! With that giant motor, it would have been fun to watch!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Moderators, this digression is coming off rather prejudiced towards Todd and his thread on his project. Please can we stop or even remove it and allow Todd the freedom to express himself. Anyone who doesn't like it is not obliged to read it...


Tyler


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, I read with great interest, sharing your vision and dream and living vicariously through you. Please keep sharing sir.
> 
> 
> Tyler





Baratong said:


> I always look forward to reading new posts from Todd on this and his other threads. I've learned quite a bit from Todd's posts, and always look forward to more. I'm enjoying the journey on both Scrape and Squat and always check for new posts...


Thanks guys. I'm not going anywhere. I wasn't offended by any of that, I found it very interesting. I have pretty thick skin, so unsolicited negative opinions just bounce off - though my curiosity is often pegged when people analyze, judge, explain, and sum me up, with only carefully chosen internet-shared information.  The lack of posts here isn't because of that whole discussion. I've been working on ICE-related stuff for Scrape, and out of respect for this forum I don't post some of that stuff. I've been doing design and engineering for the ICE, and we've been purchasing a lot of parts for that. I try to stage the two projects so that when Scrape is in slo-mo, or ICE-mode, there are posts about Squat. I've been posting there, and we're really close to putting it together and starting to ride and enjoy that little bike. 

I'm waiting for one of the CNCs and Eric to find some free time to machine the titanium adjuster plates, so chassis work has been on hold. Great Machine is also moving to a new location over the next couple months, so that has an effect on my work. Tens of thousands of pounds of equipment to move, and the subsequent down time, so they're cranking pretty hard right now trying to get as much done as possible before they shut down.








tylerwatts said:


> Moderators, this digression is coming off rather prejudiced towards Todd and his thread on his project. Please can we stop or even remove it and allow Todd the freedom to express himself. Anyone who doesn't like it is not obliged to read it...
> Tyler


No need guys - it's all good.  I'd actually prefer they leave those posts in the thread, and everything exactly as it is. Scrape is far more than a simple vehicle project, and those posts contain data I am looking for.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

An update for the community here: Scrape's main sponsor Great Machine is in the process of moving to a new location. Scrape is already in the new shop, but all the tools and equipment are on the other side of town, so definitely slow progress over the next month or so. I am still working on it, between CAD in my home office, and machining and fabrication at either GM or CIF when feasible, but it's even slower going...

Just to reiterate, my lack of posting here is only because I have a lot of ICE-related questions to answer to finish putting the bike together.


The latest: In simultaneously working on the electrical system layout and the rear suspension design, I also charged myself with cleaning things up. Motorcycles are complex by nature, but there’s a thin line between appearing technically sophisticated and just plain cluttered. With the LiPo cells out of their hard cases I could fit them under the V-twin, and push the Curtis forward under the electric motor. That allowed me to graft in a canted version of the low-mount, progressive, rear suspension; which really cleans up Scrape’s midsection. Lots of little details to work out but I like the initial results…


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd I don't see any cells. Any chance of a close up? Have you hidden them in the twin's sump or something?


Tyler


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd I don't see any cells. Any chance of a close up? Have you hidden them in the twin's sump or something?
> 
> 
> Tyler


Sure!  You can't see them because they're purposely blacked out. In reality the Curtis won't be quite as _colorful_ as it is currently being depicted. The current cover is black plastic, not gray, and the base and chill plate will most likely be black anodized or black (chemical) patina. The battery box will be either the same in aluminum, or titanium, or carbon. The Curtis will eventually have a custom cover as well. I digress...

The V-twin is a dry sump engine. That black box under it is the battery; shown here in translucent green. The muffler is just crudely cropped, as I haven't sorted all that out yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

And wow, Scrape's thread crested 300K views! Thanks to the community for enjoying, enduring, or maybe suffering through, years of my obsessive-compulsive-design disorder...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Congrats Mr Perkins!



Ah ok. I didn't realise the pack was so small. Very stealthy. What capacity is the pack?


Tyler


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Congrats Mr Perkins!...


Thanks! 






tylerwatts said:


> ...Ah ok. I didn't realise the pack was so small. Very stealthy. What capacity is the pack?...


Ready? Drum roll.................

0.6kWh! 

It will have the capability to recharge "in-flight" though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's a 33% increase in capacity, from Scrape's old 48v AGM pack, after Peukert allowance, was ~0.4kWh. 

They old AGM pack also had a 170 amp max, and pretty significant voltage sag, so this should feel pretty good. More than triple the current, twice the voltage, and 33% more capacity, at 25% of the weight.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that the foundation is finally set, it's time to start going nuts in CAD and doing some real _Todd_ stuff. The CAD/CNC billet titantium chain adjusters, and CAD/3D-printed fuel cap, will be joined by a really unique, CAD/CNC/machined/fabricated oil tank that will fit on the front of the hoop. It will also create a neat little cave on the back of the hoop that highlights the canted, organic, center pivot plates and curvy tubular crossmember. Can't wait to share what I'm up to the for the oil tank...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Please forgive if this reads a little _corporate_ and _impersonal_, it's the blurb from my website and social media...

Old school motorcycle gas tanks were simple and elegant, yet sophisticated enough to identify the brand and model of a bike with a casual glance. I’m probably biased, given it was my first real streetbike, and that I’ve owned it since 1983, but I think the original Kawasaki H1 and H2 tanks were among the best. To emphasize its timeless beauty, we wedge-pinched about three inches out of the back of Scrape’s tank and will replace the original flip-up filler with this flush-mount, 3D-printed metal, assembly. After a considerable amount of metalwork to drape it over the big V-twin, the tank will be finished in brushed bare steel. Custom H1-R text, using a stylized “R” from the new H2-R, will adorn each side in a graphic that pays homage to classic fat and thin striped Kawi paint work; all under satin clear.


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

I think i found the next motor for scrape:

https://youtu.be/uhYEdD94vH0


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

samwichse said:


> I think i found the next motor for scrape...


Haha! Scrape has found its way with hybrid propulsion, but this might be cool in a future build. Love that sound!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is ICE-related, but it will be a pretty cool project. It also - finally - gets me back to where I was when I moved to Columbus; what I call my _real_ CAD work. I completely back away from it because finding people and shops here willing to reach outside the box proved to be nearly impossible.

Sharp eyes here might recognize this piece: it's the top half of the Inhaler's motor mount. Great Machine whittled it out for me way back in 2010. It was actually the simplest CAD/CNC project I had, that I used for a test to see what I could accomplish with my move to Columbus. Obviously, I've snipped the bottom off, partly because I needed this section, and partly because the bottom half had a lot of (machining-related) issues I never found a feasible way to resolve. It’s now being re-purposed into Scrape’s oil tank. The Sharpie spots mark where we need to machine a couple more counterbored mounting holes; then the inside will be hogged out, turning this into the top front half of the tank. I’m going to go nuts in CAD on the bottom front section, and either have it 3D printed or CNC machined; then we’ll hammer and form the sheet metal rear half. 










It felt sooooo good to cut that bottom half off, and reclaim my original mission. I've read stories before where people said they felt free and renewed after amputating a gimpy limb - I really get it. Now to get back to blowing up boundaries...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi Todd!
Still watching.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hi Todd!
> Still watching.


Hey Woody! Great to see you posting occasionally, and peeking in the windows here!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Woody! Great to see you posting occasionally, and peeking in the windows here!


Yes, just been so busy with life, but I have, today, been gifted a couple of solar PV panels for 48v battery charging.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Yes, just been so busy with life, but I have, today, been gifted a couple of solar PV panels for 48v battery charging.


I saw them. Sweet!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Testing the fit of the tank shell on Squat's frame. Perfect. That center area is going to be the sump where the lines enter from and exit to the big V-twin. One of my favorite things to do in design is to *illuminate* function through form - I can't wait to start modeling what I see in my head...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The CAD madness begins. The first step was to revolve a simple profile of the tank shell and stick it in Digital Scrape to see how much space I have to play with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New family portrait (latest CAD versions) of the TPD kids.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a three phase plan for Scrape's rear suspension. The first uses a stock 900 Ninja swingarm, with the eccentric adjusters bored out to accept the 25mm ZX12 axle. To get a rear wheel and suspension back on the bike, I made this little alignment pin. Chuck it up in a 0.750" collet in the mill and it trues the bore to the spindle, and locates the bore center in one quick operation. No playing with dial indicators, and hoping that the lower surface sitting on parallels is really perpendicular to the bore. The *Todd* way...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Using a wireframe viewport capture, I have been sketching on my phone to sort out my thoughts on modeling the lower-front tank shell. Building on the design philosophy of form highlighting function, you’ll almost be able to imagine the oil flowing from the crest of its half-moon shell, down into the sump, where it exits out of the lower port. More to come as the form continues to evolve, and the sophisticated function it’s pointing to…


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Slowly lining up the parts and processes that are needed for a summer ride on Scrape. The parts are all in for getting the rear wheel adapted. I finished the CAD for the frame's center pivot section, and we have the order in for these plates to be water-jet cut. Hopefully, but the time they arrive Great Racing will be up and running in their new location, and I'll be able to machine the holes to spec, machine the grooves, and turn the tubing for the crossmembers. Step by little step...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The center pivot plates, beautifully water-jet cut by S&W Race Cars, out of Spring City, PA. We highly recommend them. Next, I'll develop a machine fixture for opening the holes to spec and machining the *lightening* grooves. I could get another half of a pound, total, by Swiss-cheesing these but, for the time-being, I prefer to carry a bit of overly-engineered weight in the interest of safety and stability.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Heads-up: Scrape is about to switch gears. Now that the foundation has been set, my attention is turning to my core mission of doing awesome and incredible things. For those in the *when will it be done* camp - don't know what to tell ya. My focus is what/how-centered, not so much when. The oil tank is the first item in the crosshairs. It will be a will be a mashup of old meets new, technology-infused art, realized through CAD, CAM, CNC, 3D printing, metalworking, and TIG welding. I found the volume I was looking for, with the right aesthetic, under the hoop. Now I start working my way forward to the sump and ports.


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

Cool project man, I must admit I've only recently been looking around this site so I haven't had time to read your entire post so far but I'll get there.

I've got this beet up 89 kawi 454 ltd that I have plans to convert. the frame looks almost identical to your ninja, would you be willing to share out your CAD drawing of the frame? it'd save me some time and allow me to screw around with it at work .......

My plans so far are to repurpose 1 or 2 Honda IMA motors .. maybe built onto the read swing arm ........ maybe with a planetary gear reduction ............ still a rough idea

edit: just to clarify I don't want to steal all your design ideas, I'm really only looking to get the frame portion if you're willing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evforme? said:


> Cool project man, I must admit I've only recently been looking around this site so I haven't had time to read your entire post so far but I'll get there...


Thanks evforme. You must have a lot of free time if you plan to read this entire behemoth of a thread! 





evforme? said:


> ...I've got this beet up 89 kawi 454 ltd that I have plans to convert...
> 
> ..My plans so far are to repurpose 1 or 2 Honda IMA motors .. maybe built onto the read swing arm ........ maybe with a planetary gear reduction ............ still a rough idea


Sounds like fun. We decided to go with an HPEVS AC motor instead of the Honda IMA motor, on this project, but we do still have the IMA that we hope to use in a future project. There's a lot of design and engineering to use these motors outside the original application because the rotor was attached to the Honda engine's crankshaft and used it's bearings and case and the IMA case, for alignment and structure.





evforme? said:


> ...the frame looks almost identical to your ninja, would you be willing to share out your CAD drawing of the frame? it'd save me some time and allow me to screw around with it at work...


I started with a 900 Ninja frame that we modified, but I never modeled that frame in CAD. For the last two years, Scrape has had my proprietary frame design. Sorry, but I won't share that as it's part of a product I am developing. For most the this journey, I didn't even have a frame in the CAD models.


Try GrabCad or Google SketchUp Warehouse - you may find what you need there.


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

That's fine, I'll manage something rough in the mean time. I got to about page 6 before I realised there were 150 something pages .... holy shit.

It's a super rough and maybe unrealistic idea to use the IMA's the way I'm thinking but they're so cheap I've got to at least try to think up a way. In the end I'll probably just slap a cheap forklift motor in there and some free batteries I got just to bomb around to work an back. 

I was thinking I could machine a shaft and bearing setup that mounts onto the swing arm, holds onto the motors each side of the wheel and the wheel hub at the same time direct driving them but the gearing would be seriously messed up.

And there'd be no rear brake other then regen, that also made me think I could rig up a simple variable regen brake out of the rear brake pedal and only have a zero throttle regen amount that makes sense for riding control. but this is your thread and I'm ranting, I'll start my own soon.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evforme? said:


> That's fine, I'll manage something rough in the mean time. I got to about page 6 before I realised there were 150 something pages .... holy shit...


Probably better to read it backwards! 



No problem, this thread would only be 100 pages without the (welcome) occasional detours. I would suggest checking out Ripperton's threads - he's been doing the regen thing for a while. His race bike doesn't even have a rear brake, if memory serves me correctly. He shares all the details of how he does his regen levers and pedals...

If you have trouble finding his threads let me know. I'm a little pressed ofr time right now, but I can search for them later, if you need help.


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## evforme? (Jul 23, 2015)

no worries, I'll search things down, I'm in no rush and no where near specifics yet, I'm hoping to get started on this in the summer when I'm on parental leave.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to catch you guys up a bit. Not much has been going on. Great Machine moved to a new shop, and I was simultaneously a little burned out, so I took the opportunity to stuff Scrape back in storage and catch my breath. I've been totally engrossed with, and having a blast doing, clients' projects. Scrape is all about assembly and making it run now, which means I needed to get deep into perfectionist mode. This is the point where I really start using Scrape as a canvas to show my design work.

I updated the seat button design to include the ripples developed for the fuel cap. I’ll stare at this for a while, and eventually pull the trigger to have it #3dprinted in real aluminum.








That was the blurb from my wesite. I've lost my mind on this piece since then - more to come... 



After almost eight looongg years, I've finally found a local shop that checks all my lofty boxes. My crappy cellphone pics do this piece no justice. It deserves a proper, professional, shoot to capture it’s magnificent beauty. Fresh off the CNC of our newest go-to shop, Priority Designs, this is the main part of Scrape’s electric motor mount. The blank for the clamp is being water-jet cut, and the aluminum plate and round bar for the center section are en route. Meanwhile, this thing looks so delicious on the HPEVS AC-12 motor that I don’t want to put it on the bike. I’m trying to convince Scrape to let me keep it for office furniture.  Pics of that soon…


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I originally stepped back into the CAD workshop to *simply* add a fillet to the upper outside edge of the previous *edition* of Scrape’s seat button; but, somewhere along the way silliness ensued and I started seeing a fedora in the part from certain views. I couldn’t stop myself. Rendered here in media-blasted aluminum, which is close to how it would come out of the 3D printer in aluminum alloy. Since 3D printing is crazy enough to keep saying “yes”, this will probably happen…


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