# Zilla Z2k and Hairball question: 1141 error



## Ken S (8 mo ago)

1: Ensure you have a good solid 12V supply. It's suspicious to me the 12V reading changed by 200mV with just the Zilla and the contactor. 

2: Do you have a meter that will record the minimum and maximum voltage? After the main contactor closes, you can attach the meter and see what happens when you press the pedal. 
I would inspect and clean all the big-wire connections from the battery, to the main contactor, to the Z2K power end. I would also check the connections from the hairball to the contactor.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

I'll double-check that 12v. The battery is far away and wire gauge from the BMS is a bit light right now, so might need to make that better.

My meter is not fast enough to read the voltage drop across the contactor when it is under load. I'll try with my scope later.

I should have included this Q3 data:
46 35 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 00 23 SOMFS
*47 36 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 00 00 OMFSV*
49 38 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
49 38 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
4A 39 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
4B 3A 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
4C 3B 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
4D 3D 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
50 40 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
53 42 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS
55 44 00 00 B1 C8 28 C8 07 07 SMFS

the funny thing is the V in the line of OMFSV which means:
"main contactor has voltage drop (>5v) across power terminals"


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

Another update:
I now see 1124 then 1141

I tried hooking my DC-DC back up to give it a constant 13.8v and things did not change
Also tried moving the 12v battery closer to the hairball, no change
While the contactor was engaged i shorted around the contactor, thinking whatever voltage drop across the contactor might be happening might cause this, and no change.

I am using a big diode across the contactor terminals as snubber, and the striped side is on the positive terminal


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## Ken S (8 mo ago)

The scope is a good idea.
It sure sounds like a dirty connection either in the contactor, or in the terminals. Are the sense wires connected directly to the relay terminals? (or is one connected to a battery terminal or a fuse terminal) 

The "V" is normal before you close the main contactor. After that, you should only see it if a fault has caused the hairball to has open the main contactor.

The 23 code is normal (waiting for throttle)
The "00" code is fishy (1111 / Unknown mode, no error)
The "07" code is fishy (1124 / Main Contactor stuck ON) 

Silly question: have you enabled HEPA input (option "n") 
Another silly question: have you configured all the options?

If your configuration is correct, and scope reading tells you the main contactor voltage is zero when the hairball says otherwise, you may need to grovel for tech support.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

The sense wires: one is connected directly to the battery at the front of the car, + terminal of HV, the other is connected to the B+ terminal of the power unit. 

Options set as:


a) Off b) Off c) Off d) Off

e) Off f) Off g) Off h) Off

i) Off j) Off k) Off l) On

m) Off n) On o) Off p) Off

So N is On (HEPA)


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

DAQ1 says:
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFSV
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFSV
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFSV
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFSV
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 00 00 0A 00 25 14 00 20 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 46 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 00 23 SOMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 0C 22 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS
05 01 C8 00 47 00 25 00 07 07 SMFS


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

Here is a video of ZillaView's take on things:
ZillaView and the pain


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## Ken S (8 mo ago)

ZillaView is a fun tool. 

Grasping at straws: Do you have the ferrite bead installed on the cable between the hairball and the zilla?

Guessing: I am a bit confused by the data log. The docs list 10 columns of output, but your file has 11. It looks like there are two "CurrentError" values before the "OperatingStatus" code, but that is just a guess. The firmware behavior (11 cols output) does not match the documentation. The documentation may be obsolete, or you may have non-standard firmware on the HB.

I think I would contact Manzanita.


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## jwr813472 (Jun 1, 2010)

The Hairball wants the ground to chassis wire no longer than 4 inches. The data cable is a standard cat5 ethernet cable, NOT a crossover. And like Ken S said, you need a ferrite bead.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I do have the ferrite bead on the line. I'll shorten that ground and see if it helps also.
DAQ1 mode data:
1. RxCtrlFlag.byte // controller mode
2. Armiture Current // ageraged current on the motor
3. ZCurrentLimit // available current from the Zilla
4. ArmDC / Averaged Duty Cycle
5. BatteryVoltage // voltoids
6. HeatSinkTemp // in tempoids
7. MotorVoltage // in voltoids
8. SpiErrorCount
9. CurrentError
10. OperatingStatus

11th column are the flags

Firmware version is 2.09

Could it be an issue that ZillaView says -10% to start on the go pedal?


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## Ken S (8 mo ago)

Thank you for the clarification on the DAQ format.

I do think your firmware is old.


hummbug said:


> Firmware version is 2.09


The online version of "zilla manual 2.02d.pdf" was created August 7, 2013. On Page 18, under "Data Acquisition," it reads "This list is for HB code version 2.12." So, in 2013, version 2.12 was available. Yours is 2.09. I think it worthwhile to find out whether you're missing any important updates.  It might be okay if the updates relate only to other hardware configurations (-S, or -A). 




hummbug said:


> Could it be an issue that ZillaView says -10% to start on the go pedal?


Guess: You could hook up a 5K pot instead of your pedal sensor and try it out. (Turn off -n)

I don't know if there is a way to ZERO or calibrate the HEPI inputs.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

I tried holding my foot at 0% and doing the startup sequence. The controller does nothing if I push my foot down after startup, until I release it completely and push down again. Then I get the error. So it does seem to be calibrated, and knows its zero position just fine.

If anyone has a later version of the firmware and knows how to flash it please let me know. Firmware says "Hairball V2.09d 070503" and my hairball is HB2-331-6p


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

i tried a few other things. Shorting the Bat+ and Controller+ on the hairball while contactor was closed, to eliminate noise from the line. No difference. Also running a direct line to the contactor from the hairball, away from all HV. No difference. Shorted around my small gauge HV relay used to power the DC-DC and sense line for the controller. Same. I am really stuck!


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## Ken S (8 mo ago)

I would contact Manzanita. 

The stated best practice (rumor) is you should not run anything off the main contactor except the zilla. Is the contactor for the the DC/DC controller downstream from the main contactor?


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## jwr813472 (Jun 1, 2010)

Ken S said:


> I would contact Manzanita.
> 
> The stated best practice (rumor) is you should not run anything off the main contactor except the zilla. Is the contactor for the the DC/DC controller downstream from the main contactor?


Rich at Manzanita Micro
360-297-1660
He is the head tech there.
I talked to him once and he was very helpful.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

@Ken S The high voltage battery sense line does go to both the Zilla and to the DC-DC thru a relay that is engaged when the key is on. It is split at a terminal strip. The HV out of the main contactor goes to the Zilla B+ and to the "Contactor +" on the Hairball. I tried this with the DC-DC disconnected and had the same problem though.

I am going to try to swap some components with another known working system today and see if I can get anywhere.


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## diggerdave (Dec 25, 2020)

hummbug said:


> @Ken S The high voltage battery sense line does go to both the Zilla and to the DC-DC thru a relay that is engaged when the key is on. It is split at a terminal strip. The HV out of the main contactor goes to the Zilla B+ and to the "Contactor +" on the Hairball. I tried this with the DC-DC disconnected and had the same problem though.
> 
> I am going to try to swap some components with another known working system today and see if I can get anywhere.


if I understand correctly that the B+ and contactor + are the two wires at the top of the HB then it sounds to me like this is your problem. I had this problem when I installed my first zilla 10 years ago. I fought it as an intermittent problem that would open the contator at seemingly random times and then resolve itself after a few minutes rest. I finally solved it by connecting these two wires directly to the contactor one to each side and then ensuring that their paths to the HB were exactly the same and exactly the same length. Like I said that was 10 years, and probably 10,000 miles, ago.


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

Thanks @diggerdave that is my absolute last thing to try, and was my plan for today. I even swapped Hairballs and power units and i have the exact same problem. Put the battery right next to the HB and ran it all in isolation from the rest of the car and problem persists. This is the last thing it can be!


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## diggerdave (Dec 25, 2020)

I found it to be really really fussy. and didn't get it resolved until I had the wires exactly the same lengths and the paths exactly the same. here's a picture how mine ended up. The yellow wire is on the controller side of the contactor and the brown is on the battery side. They both go through fuses of the same size. I do have an unused heater relay connected to the contactor but it doesn't cause any problems probably because it is not used, adds no load, and does nothing. I should remove it.


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## diggerdave (Dec 25, 2020)

darn. didn't mean to post that picture twice... sorry... not sure how that happened


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## hummbug (Apr 8, 2019)

That was it! Sense lines to the contactor NEED to be separate, parallel, isolated from other stuff and not reused for anything. My contactor is at the front of the car and Hairball at the back, so no way to keep the lines short but at least when they were dedicated lines it worked well. Thanks for the advice everyone and I hope my experience saves someone else from the MASSIVE trouble I went thru to get this working.


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## diggerdave (Dec 25, 2020)

hummbug said:


> That was it! Sense lines to the contactor NEED to be separate, parallel, isolated from other stuff and not reused for anything. My contactor is at the front of the car and Hairball at the back, so no way to keep the lines short but at least when they were dedicated lines it worked well. Thanks for the advice everyone and I hope my experience saves someone else from the MASSIVE trouble I went thru to get this working.


Great! just to be clear the length of the wires is not a problem as long as both wires are the same length and have exactly the same paths. The HB is measuring the resistance of the contactor points and comparing them and will open the contactor if the measured resistance of each is not within prescribed tolerance. Thus length and path being EQUAL are what's critical.


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