# Newbie consult about HVH250-115 config. choices



## ARMR (Feb 24, 2014)

Gentlemen,

This is a quick newbie consult about the HVH250-115 motors. 

I am just getting in touch with these units for the first time and I wonder if you could kindly address me on the right track of understanding about their configuration choices:

*Rated voltage*: all the units I have seen on the web state 700V on their tags (most, if not all of them, old Remy units), and the curves family found in the specs sheets also step up to 700V. Should I understand that, 

1) The entire family is wound for 700V as its rated voltage (no matter if D or S) and the different curves just describe the performance of the motor for this rated voltage and a few other lower discrete values (350, 500 and 600V on new BorgWarner literature; 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600V on Remy’s)? 

Or,

2) Should I expect units wound for any of those values as a rated voltage?


Thanks


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

I am also considering this motor. The double winding preferred is about the right performance for me, it's the 700V unit.

BergWarner also has some great boxes that bolt on directly.

Anybody with experience with this motor and the associated gear box? 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What are you asking about the motor?


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> What are you asking about the motor?


If love to see pictures of somebody using this motor in their car. I see the motors and the associated offset gear box. I just don't have a good feel for how it's mounted and used.

Any experience would be appreciated. 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Via Motors used them in their hybrid pickups and vans under the VTrux trademark around 2012 iirc. Company was led by Bob Lutz formerly of GM and daddy of the Chevy Volt.

The HVH250-90 cartridge appears to be used in the Ford Mustang Mach-E.

The problem is that Model 3/Y have become such jellybeans it's really tough to justify the spend, especially considering a Tesla DU has the inverter, whereas the HVH needs one in addition to the cost of the motor and that offset gearbox. 

Leaf motors are a lot cheaper. There's also almost no community support for them...in fact, I'm not aware of anybody using them.

It's pretty much become a boat anchor over the past couple of years, lol.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Thanks remey_martian, great data. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks. But vacation is over, gotta work again. I really like the HVH motors, but haven't done the pricing yet. We'll see.

The Ford ecrate motor is really geared up, 9.08:1 IIRC. The price is rig, but if you hook that up to a differential, you have tremendous low end torque, but not very fast.

Thoughts on the idea behind the high ratio? Are they somehow connected directly to the wheels or a different differential? 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The axles come right out of that drive unit. That ratio is pretty nominal for a 10k motor to wheel speed. It goes in place of a diff


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The axles come right out of that drive unit. That ratio is pretty nominal for a 10k motor to wheel speed. It goes in place of a diff


Alright, thanks. You put on independent suspensions and tie directly to that. That's really what I'd like, but have new research to do to figure out how to get that into my truck. If I have to cut into the bed, no good.

Seems like something for the next vacation.

Mark 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Chevrolet Silverado has independent front suspension. Do what they did on the Pontiac Fiero and run the inner tie rods to a fixed point on the frame after you move it to the back.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Chevrolet Silverado has independent front suspension. Do what they did on the Pontiac Fiero and run the inner tie rods to a fixed point on the frame after you move it to the back.


Hi Remy, I had some a quick death before this and thought all hope was lost for direct connect.

This is intriguing, but after an hour of searching, I can't find this reference. Can you provide a pointer so I can see what they did? 

Nothing is a given, considering this truck is a straight frame. 

Thanks,
Mark 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's a common trick on mid engined cars (I believe MR2 did it as well). Slide the front wheel drive straight back, tie the inner tie rod to the frame using a long rod so it doesn't bump steer. Easiest to crawl under one that's up for sale and look.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> This is intriguing, but after an hour of searching, I can't find this reference. Can you provide a pointer so I can see what they did?


It's just a general approach: if using a suspension at the rear which was designed for the front, one issue is that there is no steering rack... so just use links like the steering tie rods, but anchor them to fixed points on the vehicle structure instead of to the ends of a steering rack.

Also, don't take this "just use front suspension in the rear" too literally - the geometry won't be right if the suspension was designed with anti-dive (as a front suspension usually is) unless some link mount positions are adjusted.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> It's a common trick on mid engined cars (I believe MR2 did it as well). Slide the front wheel drive straight back, tie the inner tie rod to the frame using a long rod so it doesn't bump steer. Easiest to crawl under one that's up for sale and look.


To minimize bump steer, you need the _right_ length, not just the longest length. In most designs, that means a track (tie) rod similar in length to the control arms.

Dealerships are great reference sources. I like the vehicles inside the showroom - clean and smooth floors are easier on the knees than parking lots.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

I found this for sale. I'll do measurements this weekend. If I have to cut Tubs into the bed, it's a non starter.









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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That diff is worth $300-400...


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Sigh, there's no way that will work without installing a tub. The '52 is straight frame in the rear with springs mounting on the outer sides of the frame to keep the bed lower.

The more I look at it, the more I realize it's going to be full differential in the rear.

I've got the bug again about four wheel drive. Maybe I can do this or a 4wd front differential with either transfer case (ie np205) or two motors. Or I give up and live with two wheel drive.

Thanks for the help!

Mark 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Frankly, you can buy a two drive unit 4WD setup using Model 3 drives for the price of one new HVH motor that you haven't geared down or coupled yet and they're happy at 400V vs needing 650 to 700V to make full HP.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> The more I look at it, the more I realize it's going to be full differential in the rear.


What do you mean by "full differential"?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The original live axle in the truck.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> The more I look at it, the more I realize it's going to be full differential in the rear.





brian_ said:


> What do you mean by "full differential"?





remy_martian said:


> The original live axle in the truck.


That's a reasonable guess, but since "full differential" doesn't really mean anything at all, my question for 52International remains.

The big thing with hubs on each end and a differential in the middle is a *live beam axle* (yes, routinely just called a "live axle").


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"original live axle" in a 1952 is a live beam axle. There wasn't anything else.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> "original live axle" in a 1952 is a live beam axle. There wasn't anything else.


I understand what "original" would be; I was asking what "full differential" was supposed to be. Remy, why don't you just let 52International answer?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Because you're being overly pedantic and the answer is obvious.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Because you're being overly pedantic and the answer is obvious.


You're still not letting him answer.
"Full differential" could mean an IRS to someone. If he means the original axle or live axle or anything like that, any of those terms would make sense. If it's just a brain fart, you didn't need to make a multi-post issue out of it.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Busy day at work, going to be a busy week. Responses will be slow....

What I mean is that independent rear suspension is a non-starter due to my unwillingness to cut into the bed to install tubs. Single traditional housing is it. 

The aftermarket chassis all have independent front suspension. I'll have to modify the sheet metal under the hood to fit, but it's under the hood so it's okay. 

Given the required style of rear, the front would end up similar, Ala a jeep. But it's all very complicated and expensive. There's an option to just use a transfer case like np205 to simplify it, I still need to mate with the np205. If that's through a manual transmission, well gee, going electric didn't simplify much. There's final gear ratios to worry about too. It's an old truck, low end torque rules. 

I need to talk to the chassis guy to get his read.

Thanks,
Mark 

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> What I mean is that independent rear suspension is a non-starter due to my unwillingness to cut into the bed to install tubs. Single traditional housing is it.


Live beam axle - thanks.

There are various independent rear suspension designs. A double A-arm type of suspension, as used at the front of modern light-duty pickups, would run into the stock frame rails at the rear and even with a modified frame the shock towers might be too tall and so require wheel tubs; however, other designs don't have this problem.

Ford now has an electric variant of the Transit (the E-Transit). The regular Transit has a live beam axle in the rear, but Ford wanted to put the drive unit on the axle line, so they needed an independent suspension. They built a semi-trailing arm independent suspension which mounts, with the drive unit, on a subframe that fits under the regular Transit frame.

There are other independent suspensions that are low and compact, and have been used in pickup trucks... without adding wheel tubs. Ford F-150 pickups have been built with the IRS of the related Ford Expedition; although that requires using the rear frame section from the Expedition, the stock box fits. There's even an old International with classic Jaguar IRS, installed within the stock frame rails (although others have used modified frames for the same suspension) and no bed modification... but I'm not suggesting using the old Jag hardware.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Whoa, this is getting exciting. I like the Ford expedition approach, more like a truck than a car. A friend did the jag in his 56 Ford truck, very nice too. 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

It's all fun and games with inboard brake rotors until you bust a u-joint


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

IRS is going to be a huge project for me. Well see if I get cold feet. Intent is to make decisions by March. 

If you do IRS, there are options, tesla, BorgWarner, cascadiamotion.com, netgain.

If you put a motor in where the engine / transmission was, the options are to either bolt onto the original transmission, or find a reduction box like torque trends (really nice solution!). Do you see other reduction box options? I don't run a machine shop, have to purchase a solution that works and can be maintained. 

Thanks,
Mark 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"If you do IRS, there are options...."

Then you go and list the options if keeping the live axle?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> It's all fun and games with inboard brake rotors until you bust a u-joint



That's just one of the reasons that I wouldn't suggest actually using the old Jaguar bits.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> If you do IRS, there are options, tesla, BorgWarner, cascadiamotion.com, netgain.





remy_martian said:


> "If you do IRS, there are options...."
> 
> Then you go and list the options if keeping the live axle?



A Tesla drive unit can be used intact in an IRS (the most common DIY conversion use of a Tesla motor), or modified for awkward use with a live beam axle.
BorgWarner and cascadiamotion.com would be the same option (Cascadia being the retail motor and controller operation of BorgWarner), and their HVH motors could be used in IRS or live beam axle configurations.
NetGain basically just sells motors, which could be used with an IRS, but in a vehicle that comes with a live beam axle most people would use them with the original axle.
What IRS mostly makes usable are complete drive units (motor with transaxle) salvaged from EVs.

If a drive unit is salvaged from the rear of an EV, it may be practical to use the entire suspension and rear subframe as well, depending on how well the track dimension matches, how well the suspension and subframe work with the existing frame design (probably poorly), and how much frame modification one is willing to do. Some rear suspensions may be low enough to fit under the box floor (which I understand is a requirement for 52International).


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Thanks Brian for the description, exactly what I've come up with.

There's a company torque trends that has a nice 1.9:1 great reduction unit. Designed for live axle applications it gives you ability to tailor your motor to your axle. Moser has a pile of gear ratio options to choose from. I choose slower with more low end torque. I've got a spreadsheet where I vary these and wheel and tire options to see how they compare to my 1980 chevy. My ideal full ratio is close to 10:1. Low nines work. 

The gear reduction enables one cascadiamotion.com, Netgain, and perhaps a few that I didn't investigate. I haven't called to ask about tesla motor fit, want to decide if I'm going to take the intensive plunge into IRS and 4WD.

There is a BorgWarner 3.09:1 reduction, which works, but leaves fewer options with the available gears. And it's got an offset output which I'm sure I can figure out.



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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> There's a company torque trends that has a nice 1.9:1 great reduction unit. Designed for live axle applications it gives you ability to tailor your motor to your axle.
> ...
> 
> The gear reduction enables one cascadiamotion.com, Netgain, and perhaps a few that I didn't investigate. I haven't called to ask about tesla motor fit, want to decide if I'm going to take the intensive plunge into IRS and 4WD.


The ev-TorqueBox will not fit a Tesla motor, because none of the Tesla motors can be removed as a functioning motor from the associated gearbox: the same aluminum casting is the drive end housing of the motor and one side of the gearbox.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

brian_ said:


> The ev-TorqueBox will not fit a Tesla motor, because none of the Tesla motors can be removed as a functioning motor from the associated gearbox: the same aluminum casting is the drive end housing of the motor and one side of the gearbox.


Ahso, that's why my internet searches yielded zilch.

Thanks!
Mark 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

There's no need for the Torquebox with a Tesla "motor" (your nonchalant use of "motor" in place of "drive unit", which Brian mentioned in the prior post as awkward, but feasible, threw our resident Cyborg 😂 out into the weeds on a Tesla *motor* casing semantic-abuse boondoggle). 

You can regear it, kill the open diff, and plug a driveshaft into it. As Brian said, awkward, but some 4WD Jeep people here are feeding their transfer cases with it.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Alright! So when do I use "drive unit" vs. "motor"?

One search, there was the 4.5:1 reduction for the large gear drive unit. Right there waiting for me. Mount it mid, run to front and rear differential, geared to 3.0:1, wow, thats interesting.

Now I guess I need to school up on tesla. 387 lb-ft torque and 14,000 RPM? 

Guess what, you can buy an expedition chassis with 4wd rear from Ford. No suspension included, but it might be hard to find the late model 4wd frame. Used cars are worth too much. I'm sure they're out there.

Oh so many options, so little time.... 

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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You'll need to convert it to limited slip. Stock Tesla diff is open, which is a disaster for 4WD. There was a discussion of this in a recent Jeep thread.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

52International said:


> Alright! So when do I use "drive unit" vs. "motor"?


A motor is just a motor; a "drive unit" is a motor plus reduction gearbox (and usually the final drive - that's the differential - as well) as one unit.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Ok, thanks for everybody's insight! I've been looking at this a while and after what feels like a bazillion options, motors, drive units, I've arrived at four scenarios. The more I look at it, it's either #1, get a new chassis that can handle the power and stick with two wheel drive, or #4, build/get a chassis that can accept drive units directly. If I can pull #4 off, just think of all that unencumbered space under the bed for batteries! There's extra space under the hood also.

I've got a little more digging around on #4, will do that next week when I'm on vacation.

Mark


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