# [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> > thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> > touched a cell terminal and the chassis at the same time. And I got
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Evan,
My understanding was that, yes, the battery pack is no isolated from 
the mains. But the charger itself is not connected to chassis unless 
there is some fault. Inside the PFC-30, the green and white wires are 
not connected to each other, and only the green wire is connected to the 
charger's casing. Therefore, under normal circumstances, there should 
be no path from the chassis to the traction pack. Is my understanding 
incorrect?

Bill Dennis

Evan Tuer wrote:
>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> >> thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just don't ever touch the connections with the charger on!!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> >> thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> >> touched a cell terminal and the chassis at the same time. And I got
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Joe, I didn't do it on purpose! So I definitely need to be more 
careful. But I still didn't think there should be a path from the 
traction pack to the chassis.

Bill Dennis

joe wrote:
> Just don't ever touch the connections with the charger on!!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle
>
>
> 
>>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> >>> thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Evan,
> > My understanding was that, yes, the battery pack is no isolated from
> > the mains. But the charger itself is not connected to chassis unless
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,

There isn't a path, until you make contact. The PFC makes a path from ground
to the frame, and the pack is tied to the live connection - so there is
potential between them.

Ben



> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Joe, I didn't do it on purpose! So I definitely need to be more
> > careful. But I still didn't think there should be a path from the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Bill,

All you have to do is run a isolated ground system. This means that the 
device grounding is not connected to vehicle chassis.

In building electrical, we do this all the time. We run isolated grounding 
circuits where the conduit or enclosures are not at the same grounding 
potential as the circuit ground.

Example: Installing isolated receptacle devices on 120 VAC, we may use a 
neutral (white), line (L1), (black) and a isolated ground wire which is 
green with a yellow tracer.

The isolated receptacle ground terminal connection is not connected to the 
holding strap like a standard receptacle. Using a standard grounded 
receptacle, it self grounds to a steel junction box and conduits.

Two ways to make your PFC charger isolated from the EV chassis, is either 
have the charger outboard and just plug in DC power. The batteries should 
be setting in a non-conductive container, so there is no conductive path of 
the battery cases.

Any time you charge a battery, it may vent and increases the the conductive 
path from the battery case, to the battery enclosure or box and than to the 
EV body it self.

Another way to isolated the PFC enclosure while it is mounted in the 
vehicle, is set it on a non-conductive isolation board or enclosure. You 
still have the charger enclosure ground and the circuitry is the same as if 
the charger was outboard setting on a bench which is not making contact with 
the EV frame or body.

Rich Rudman has advise to put the charger on a insulated board when mounting 
in the EV.

In a isolated circuit installation, we may install a ground detection 
circuit which is not like a GFI circuit. This circuit detects if the 
isolated grounded chassis is shorted to a standard grounded chassis, and it 
alerts the operators before starting up the equipment.

This method is use in explosive proof areas, and is use in isolated and arc 
proof devices in operating rooms.

A simple means of detecting this is to have a panel mounted volt meter in 
the 200 ma range or even a ohm meter that is connected between the charger 
enclosure which was made isolated and the body of the EV.

You first turn on the meter indicator circuit before you turn on the charger 
to see if there is any circuit conductance. Then you can turn off the ohm 
meter if using one and leave on the volt meter.

The commercial ground detection devices we use are very costly to use in a 
EV. They detect single, two, and three phase differences and may shut down 
the main power entering the area by the use of large magnetic contactors.

You could also use a GFI circuit breaker, which is a panel mounted one in 
the EV, that is between the AC input plug and the charger or any other tap 
off circuits you may have. This is what I have. You can use a standard GFI 
plug circuit breaker that normally plugs into a circuit breaker panel, but 
you get a circuit breaker mounting base that mounts on a chassis board.

You can also get this breaker with Line and Load wire lugs, and this uses on 
metal clips to mounted it to a board.

Your batteries should be dead fronted, meaning it is enclose and cover. 
This is the same with circuit breakers panels and switch boards, we do not 
leave them open. You have to treat the battery installation the same way.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> touched a cell terminal and the chassis at the same time. And I got
> zapped. I did some testing with the voltmeter, and found that when the
> PFC-30 is off, there is no voltage between the traction pack and the
> chassis. But when the PFC-30 is on, one end of the traction pack has
> +60V to the chassis, and the other end of the traction pack has -60V to
> the chassis. This was while charging from the 240V AC mains. The
> PFC-30's green grounding wire, as well as its case, are connected to the
> chassis, per the instructions in Manzanita's manual. I think Don
> Cameron had this same problem a few years ago, but I don't know if he
> ever got it resolved. Any suggestions?
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm still not getting it. There must be a gap in my understanding.

1) When I touch the pack and the chassis, there is a path from the pack 
to the chassis through me.
2) There is a path from the chassis to the PFC-30's case
3) Under normal circumstances, there is no connection inside the PFC-30 
between the case and any other wire.
4) Green and white are connected back in the breaker box.

So is the circuit completed by going back through the breaker box, then 
into the PFC-30 again through the white wire?

Bill Dennis 

Ben wrote:
> Bill,
>
> There isn't a path, until you make contact. The PFC makes a path from ground
> to the frame, and the pack is tied to the live connection - so there is
> potential between them.
>
> Ben
>
>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Joe, I didn't do it on purpose! So I definitely need to be more
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, the breaker is a GFI breaker. And I'm still confused because 
sometimes there's a gap of understanding, or you're thinking about 
something in a particular wrong way that occludes full understanding. 
That's my current situation, and apparently has been since at least 2006.

Bill Dennis

Evan Tuer wrote:
>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Evan,
> >> My understanding was that, yes, the battery pack is no isolated from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'm still not getting it. There must be a gap in my understanding.
> >
> > 1) When I touch the pack and the chassis, there is a path from the pack
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> >Rich Rudman has advise to put the charger on a insulated board when
> mounting
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Bill,

Only the green wire in the PFC is grounded to the enclosure. Back in the 
50's we use the neutral (white) as the ground, but was found that in a 120 
vac circuit, the neutral was also carrying current all the time, and 
electrocuting people.

So the NEC mandated that a metal enclosure shall not continuous carry the 
circuit all the time. So we remove the neutrals from the metal enclosures 
and added a separated wire that is grounded to the enclosure, which we call 
the ground (green wire).

Now any time one of the line wires (black or red) or call Line 1 or Line 2 
shorts to a metal enclosure, this is the only time the the enclosure will 
have this current flowing on it.

But the problem which was found, when someone is touching the grounded 
enclosure and at the same time there was a short of the Line wires or even a 
neutral wire to the metal enclosure, the person was electrocuted.

So the NEC made another change, which is normally found in new houses and 
some old houses may not be up dated yet. The neutral and ground wire shall 
not be connected together in a circuit breaker panel. The neutral bar is 
now on a insulated base and there are separated ground bars.

We a one time cross connected the ground bar to neutral bar inside the 
panel, but this was also change because you can get a circuit feed back, if 
the ground wire connection to loose or broken between the panel ground bar 
and the service entrance neutral.

So the NEC made another change where the neutral and ground will only be 
made before it comes into the house or building. In a house, it is normally 
done back at the meter base, and in some commercial and industrial areas, 
that has isolation and explosive proof circuits. The neutral is grounded to 
a 10 foot long electrode and the standard ground conductor is grounded to 
another 10 foot electrode and then the ground rods are only connected to 
connected about 6 feet depth below ground.

Isolated grounds have there own ground rod, plus two for lightning and 
another for static.

Then the NEC made another change, where all receptacle circuits that are 
located in the kitchen, bathroom, laundry rooms, dinettes, dining rooms, 
garages, and outside locations shall be GFI protected either by a GFI 
circuit breaker or GFI receptacle.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> I'm still not getting it. There must be a gap in my understanding.
>
> 1) When I touch the pack and the chassis, there is a path from the pack
> to the chassis through me.
> 2) There is a path from the chassis to the PFC-30's case
> 3) Under normal circumstances, there is no connection inside the PFC-30
> between the case and any other wire.
> 4) Green and white are connected back in the breaker box.
>
> So is the circuit completed by going back through the breaker box, then
> into the PFC-30 again through the white wire?
>
> Bill Dennis





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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> >Err.. The current goes through you, to ground, back to the generator.
> >that's all there is to it. No matter whether the nearest ground is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > >Rich Rudman has advise to put the charger on a insulated board when
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Bill,

We had this same discussion several years ago, and Rich said, just install 
the PFC on a insulator board to isolated from the EV. It then becomes just 
like a charger setting on a bench outside the vehicle.

Now, you can still get shock, by touching any one of the battery post and 
standing bare foot on a wet ground that may complete a ground path to a 
ground rod that is use for that building. You then completed a circle or a 
circuit.

This path is now through the ground and not through the EV at this time 
which is more resistance.

If you are use a GFIC device, and it did not trip, it may because it still 
detected the current in the safe zone. I would test out the GFIC 120 volt 
device which is done by shorting the neutral wire to a ground wire while the 
internal circuit has some load on it. This is done by pressing the 
test/reset button.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > >Rich Rudman has advise to put the charger on a insulated board when
> > mounting
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> >>Err.. The current goes through you, to ground, back to the generator.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Roland,
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought I was safe with rubber-soled shoes,
on dry concrete. I did not count on a nail
that had punched through the heal as it wore
down. OUCH!

I don't think they use nails in shoes any more.

That lesson probably saved my life a dozen times!

John in Sylmar, CA
www.evalbum.com/1749


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Evan,

You must be at a lower resistance than I am. I can hold on to a 120V and 
even a 240V wire and may not feel it. I can squeeze the wire harder and 
still cannot feel it at 120V, but some at 240V.

It is very common for our electrical workers to stick there fingers in a 
lamp socket to see if there is any current and some of the guys can change 
receptacles and switches while they are hot.

Now if I lick my fingers (only using one hand) I now can barely feel the 
120V. Remember not put your whole body in series, I do this by shunting my 
body between two fingers on one hand.

Of course, I am wearing linemen boots, no watches, no rings, or any metal 
objects and 100 percent cotton clothes which are static free.

Roland

R


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > >Scenario 2: ...through the green wire back to the nearest supply point (where it's connected to the
> > >white wire and the earth rod, as above).
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Evan Tuer wrote:
> >> >Scenario 2: ...through the green wire back to the nearest supply point (where it's connected to the
> >> >white wire and the earth rod, as above).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I confess, Bill, I have gotten bit, also - but i don't have a PFC-30, or any 
PFC hooked up yet! The -20 hasn't been installed yet - but soon!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> Joe, I didn't do it on purpose! So I definitely need to be more
> careful. But I still didn't think there should be a path from the
> traction pack to the chassis.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> joe wrote:
>> Just don't ever touch the connections with the charger on!!
>>
>> Joseph H. Strubhar
>>
>> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>>
>> E-mail: [email protected]
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle
>>
>>
>>
>>>


> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> While the batteries were charging last night, something happened that I
> >>>> thought wasn't supposed to occur. When the PFC-30 was charging, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

LOL, Roland - you sound like my dad! He could take hold of live wires and 
just feel maybe a little tickle, because of the many thick calluses on his 
fingers!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> Hello Evan,
>
> You must be at a lower resistance than I am. I can hold on to a 120V and 
> even a 240V wire and may not feel it. I can squeeze the wire harder and 
> still cannot feel it at 120V, but some at 240V.
>
> It is very common for our electrical workers to stick there fingers in a 
> lamp socket to see if there is any current and some of the guys can change 
> receptacles and switches while they are hot.
>
> Now if I lick my fingers (only using one hand) I now can barely feel the 
> 120V. Remember not put your whole body in series, I do this by shunting 
> my body between two fingers on one hand.
>
> Of course, I am wearing linemen boots, no watches, no rings, or any metal 
> objects and 100 percent cotton clothes which are static free.
>
> Roland
>
> R
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle
>
>
>> 


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Roland,
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Evan,
> > My understanding was that, yes, the battery pack is no isolated from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:57:28 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]> wrote:


>You can assume the neutral wire is connected to ground somewhere, yes.
> I doubt it's actually done in your breaker box.
>The point is that both the neutral and ground wires (and the ground
>itself) will act as a return path back to the transformer - the latter
>two only in the case of a fault.

Per code here in the US, the ground and neutrals must be bonded in the main
panel (but not sub-panels). In most main panels, white and green wires are
interspersed on the same ground/neutral bus bar.

The concept of separate neutral and ground leads doesn't even exist upstream
of the breaker panel. Only three wires run back through the meter and to the
pole pig, the two hot legs and neutral. the neutral lug on the pig is bonded
to the grounded pig case and to a ground rod at the base of the pole (or a
ground cap on the end of the pole stuck in the ground. The equivalent
connections exist for pad-mounted transformers. And, of course, the
ground/neutral is grounded to a ground rod at the meter and/or at the main
panel.

Ground and neutral are for all practical purposes one and the same,
occasionally separated by a volt or two caused by the voltage drop through the
neutral conductor. That difference is insignificant and can be ignored when
analyzing this situation.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.


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For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John wrote:
> 
> >If you're going to be routinely working on the car while it's on charge then I
> >highly recommend buying an isolation transformer to protect yourself from
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello John,

This is true if you bolt the PFC to the body or frame of the EV and the 
batteries are setting in a open steel rack which is also bolt to the EV 
frame. My is not like that.

My PFC charger is setting inside a 1/4 inch thick epoxy coated enclosure 
where only the charger box is ground. It is isolated from the EV body and 
frame.

When you have a outboard charger, there is only two DC lines going to a 
Anderson DC input plug. There is no AC ground wire that is connected to the 
EV with this type of input circuit.

The on board charger has a additional GFI circuit breaker is install between 
a polorize nylon totally enclose connector and plug. THIS IS NOT A SELF 
GROUNDING RECEPTACLE, but a isolation type of plug and connector.

The main contactor and motor controller is also isolated from the battery by 
the use of two large safety contactors while the batteries are being charge, 
or you will the charging voltage at the controller and in some controller 
circuits, one dc line goes through a shunt right to the motor.

The motor then can leak the charging current to the EV frame by the 
conductive path of the brush dust which has happen to some of the people on 
this list.

My batteries are also install in a epoxy coated 1/4 inch thick fiberglass 
box which is cover with 2 inches of foam and nylon and then there is another 
layer of nylon and 2 inch foam that insulates and separates the batteries 
from the steel EV body.

I been running this ground isolation circuit for 28 years now with no 
problem. The only leakage I get is across the top of the batteries when 
they are venting. When this leakage gets up to 0.1 volt or so, then its 
time to clean the batteries.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neon John" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:01:01 -0600, Bill Dennis <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> > >Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The NEC now requires that the neutral and ground conductor not to be cross 
connected between neutral bar and ground bar on a internal circuit breaker 
panels.

We must now use a insulated neutral bar and separated ground bars that self 
ground to the panel. We then run four conductors out to the meter base or 
combination meter base. The neutral in the meter base has a buss bar 
connected to the ground bar.

This ground bar is then connected to ground rod that the top of the rod must 
be 6 inches below grade. A 3/4 inch PVC conduit is use to enclose the 
ground wire that goes to the ground rod.

This PVC conduit is to provide mechanical protection and protect any person 
from shock if the ground wire becomes disconnected from the ground rod.

In some states, they require to continue the ground wire out to the 
transformer, either in overhead or underground and then the neutral and 
ground is connected together at the transformer. There is a ground rod at 
the transformer for the electrical ground, and there is a separated ground 
rod for the lightning arrestors. We use to have all these tied together at 
one time.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neon John" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:57:28 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >You can assume the neutral wire is connected to ground somewhere, yes.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not quite sure how to say this so as not to sound like I'm dumping on 
the PFC chargers. They do have their place, but I've always had some 
concern about them. 

When they were under design, the builder asked EVDL members what they wanted 
in a charger. He did do some prompting, but it was still pretty clear that 
a fairly low cost was important. Input voltage flexibility was an interest, 
and so was lots of charging power.

For most EVDLers, safety wasn't much of a consideration, as I recall. I was 
one of the few people who suggested that the PFC should be an isolated 
design. However, isolation would have added quite a bit to the price, so it 
wasn't included. Making it an option has since been discussed but I think 
with very little interest expressed from the (hobbyist) customers.

So, basically, the PFC chargers are optimized for the maximum charging 
output per dollar. Safety (and charge control) are further down the list of 
priorities.

None of this is a secret. Look at the charger. Do you see a UL or CSA mark 
on it? No. It hasn't been submitted for testing nor has it been designed 
to comply with UL and/or CSA requirements. It might comply if tested, but 
that wasn't an objective. This pretty well limits the PFC chargers to EV 
hobbyists. I remember seeing non-UL chargers in commercial conversions 20 
years ago, but today I think it's much less likely. Too legally risky. 
Heck, that was probably true even then; don't tell Chandler Waterman. ;-)

I'm not going to call the PFC unsafe, but I think it's fair to say that a 
fully isolated charger IS safer. 

I personally would like to see more of an emphasis on safety in hobbyist 
EVs. I have some concerns about what the news media would do with a 5 year 
old kid electrocuted by a homebrew EV charging in the driveway, and what the 
result would be for the hobbyist EV movement. However, when I've brought 
that up here in the past I've been (virtually ;-) beaten about the head and 
shoulders with a blunt instrument. And, maybe I >am< being overly cautious. 
So I won't get into the graphic detail this time. ;-)

Still, if safety is important to you, then for goodness sake, buy an 
isolated charger. Zivan and Brusa are examples. In lower voltages, Delta-
Q is another (you could use two of them for higher voltages). Even an old 
golf car charger will be isolated. Or buy an isolation transformer (though 
it'll be heavy).

If you decide to change to a safer charger, I'm sure you'll be able to find 
someone who will take the PFC off your hands. AFAIK, they continue to be in 
demand among EV hobbyists.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:57:28 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Hello John,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> JS <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >I thought I was safe with rubber-soled shoes,
> >on dry concrete. I did not count on a nail
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > So, basically, the PFC chargers are optimized for the maximum charging
> > output per dollar. Safety (and charge control) are further down the list of
> > priorities.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The PFC chargers can't be submitted to UL because there is no
> > standard to test it against. Manzanita Micro could pay UL to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There is also UL1236SA(Marine) which might be better considering the
environment. A lot of emphasis on isolation and shock hazard. As a small
manufacturer to a small community it would be hard to financially justify
the testing as it would easily cost $25,000.oo plus to go to UL. A lesser
lab should be considered and usually just as good of testing but a lot
cheaper. I'm not sure if I would spend the money for the testing but I would
"build to" one of the UL standards.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:25 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The PFC chargers can't be submitted to UL because there is no
> > standard to test it against. Manzanita Micro could pay UL to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> The PFC chargers can't be submitted to UL because there is no
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >>> The PFC chargers can't be submitted to UL because there is no
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello John,

The grounding articles are in section 250. We are require to only make this 
cross connect at the first system disconnecting means which is the 
combination disconnect and meter base and where the first attachment of a 
bonding attachment.

We are required to put the first disconnect on the outside of the building 
in this area, so the fire department can shut down the power to the 
building, if the power company have not arrived to shut the power at the 
transformer.

We are only allow now to attach the ground rod bonding to the external panel 
which may be just a meter base or combination. We use to bring in the 
ground rod bonding conductor and combine it all together at the neutral bar.

The reason is that the external ground shunts any lightning strikes of a 
overhead grounded conductor directly to a ground rod that is outside of a 
building instead of sending this surge into the building and then back out 
to the ground rod.

We also must have all our ground conductors insulated while it is run 
through conduits or bury underground to another ground point. The purpose 
here, is to prevent grounding and lightning currents in the conduit (which 
we are require to use PVC for this) and grounding current paths in the 
ground where it may be more conductive for a person standing on this area or 
cattle in agricultural areas.

The NEC waits until something burns down, blow up, or someone gets kill, and 
than make a change in the code to reduce that possibly.

We had one child kill that happen to be touching the metal conduit that 
enclosed a bare grounding wire, that had a surge going through it while 
there was a short circuit or a open ground conductor could cause this at the 
bonding point.

We also had a lighting strike the overhead line grounded conductor, which 
travel into the house, through the house on the bare grounding wire which 
was bonded to a copper pipe inside the house which this lighting blew the 
house apart. We no longer use a water pipe as a main bonding electrode. We 
must run a insulated grounding wire directly from the ground rod point that 
is bury 6 inches below, which is use to ground the water system, not use it 
as a main ground bonding which was the norm at the time.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neon John" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Tingle


>


> "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Everyone else should pay attention to the advice given in the manual,
> and on this list, unless you *really* know what you're doing! 

A common epitaph in the cemetary of famous last words is, "Of course I 
know what I'm doing!" 
-- 
Pity Professor Oliver Quist
Who cured a disease that didn't exist
Alas, for he sneezed
And caught his disease
His cure didn't work; he'll be missed!
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Bob Rice" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Or damn good liaibility insurance! But he IS selling to a select
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> As an experimenter's tool it's great but as Lee said there are serious
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've been following this thread with interest and there is a major 
point that needs to be made that relates to this and many other 
topics discussed on the EVDL. Some of us (me included) don't know 
enough to (about electronics, electricity or the mechanics of an 
automobile) to be able to properly asses the various risks 
association with just about every decision associated with converting 
an EV. There are obviously other folks on the list at the other end 
of the information and experience spectrum that provide volumes of 
valuable information.

Frequently when a newbie shows up the general response is, "glad to 
see you, jump in and have at it." In fact a few years ago a certain 
respected former member of the list was quoted on a TV show saying 
that "anyone that can turn a wrench can do a conversion". My wife 
about had a fit when she heard that because of all the trials and 
tribulations I had been going through at the time. Its just not true.

The problem I have had through the 4 years of my conversion process 
is that the list provides such a huge spectrum of opinion on what is 
acceptable. If you don't start out with some basic knowledge, its 
difficult-to-impossible to identify the right balance .

I too was recently working on my truck while charging with a PFC-30 
and got a tingle. Still not sure how because I was no where near 
anything in the traction pack circuit. I will no longer be working on 
the truck while charging.

I'm rambling a bit but my point is that there are some of us out here 
who don't know what we don't know. Does that mean we should not take 
on the project? I'm not sure, but I don't recall anyone ever telling 
a newbie that a safe conversion may be beyond their means.

If I were to start over again, knowing what I have accumulated from 
reading the list and working on my project for the past 4-5 years I 
may not have started.

John in Ma





> Neon John wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:00:23 -0400, "Bob Rice" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Or damn good liaibility insurance! But he IS selling to a select
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John in Ma <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neon,

Thanks for the encouraging words, and the advice on grounding your EV 
chassis when using a non-isolated charger.



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > Also remember Pournelli's Rule (this is the guy who used to write the
> > Chaos
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 15 Jul 2008 at 20:14, John in Ma wrote:
> 
> > Some of us (me included) don't know enough to (about electronics,
> > electricity or the mechanics of an automobile) to be able to properly
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >That would be Jerry Pournelle, who wrote the "Chaos Manor" column in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>> I'm not going to call the PFC unsafe, but I think it's fair to say that
>> a
>> fully isolated charger IS safer.
>
>
> I'll second that advice. If you have a non-isolated charger like the
> PFC, Russco, or K&W; get an isolation transformer!
>

And that is exactly why ALL Russco non isolated chargers have a factory
installed high quality Square D GFCI!

It is extremely poor practice to touch the vehicle chassis ground and any
propulsion interconnection such as a battery connection, isolated charger
or not. Remember: One hand in pocket, other hand touches nothing = no
shock hazard. But if a person does touch two potentially different points
at one time when charging, the GFCI will provide power disconnection
before a dangerous human safety compromise can occur.

Be safe: Ground the vehicle chassis to utility ground and don't touch any
vehicle connections whether the vehicle is charging or not. And use a
GFCI. It's the law, isolated charger or non isolated charger, per NEC
625.



Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com

The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John in Ma wrote:
> > Frequently when a newbie shows up the general response is, "glad to
> > see you, jump in and have at it." In fact a few years ago a certain
> > respected former member of the list was quoted on a TV show saying
> ...


----------

