# DIY EV - Beginner's Guide - State of Affairs 2019 (contribute please!)



## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

---- Forward ----

Hi everyone,

It's been bothering me for a while that so much information is out of date and hasn't been collimated together in a long time on the state of doing DIY EVs in 2019. So I'd like to change that.

Lots of parts of this website are unused, inaccessible, neglected, etc. So I wanted to do it right here in this thread where there's still some activity. Maybe at some point it'll be edited into the wiki or an article to be posted front and center on the landing page.

This first post I will continuously re-edit to update according to the discussion below, so it can always be used as a frame of reference. If I end up not keeping up on it or leave the community or whatnot in future months, moderators have permission to edit this post and keep it up-to-date.

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Content will appear here. Discussion as below.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I'd like to go through and get up-to-date options (and maybe some historic options) for all major components and parts of the build process. The idea is that a newbie could come here and actually have a clue what to do. Current guides are like, 12 years out of date.

I'm not knowledgeable. I'm just going to spitball here and feel free to discuss and correct and add alternatives.

Donor Car:

- Not much has changed, same old advice is true. But something light and aerodynamic since it helps with range, though range isn't the issue it was with Lead acids.

Motor:

- Cheapest option is a DC forklift motor. Free-$200 anywhere in the world. This is still a viable build. There is a giant thread telling how, we should probably summarize and photo-journal those. These were popular 25 years ago to 5 years ago, and are still somewhat common today for converters.

- Impulse/Warp 9, 11, etc. DC still. Several thousand dollars. These are basically the same as forklift motors, there's little need to buy them, I don't think anyone's bought any for a new conversion in several years (?).

- AC forklift motor. I don't know anyone doing this other than me actually. Don't know how common this is.

- Hyper 9, etc. AC motor. Or other purchased AC motor like the Siemens? I don't know much about these at all or if anyone's actually using them.

- OEM EV motors. This is probably the biggest change since all the last guides were written. back then DIY EV was the only way to EV. Now it's just a way of making the vehicle you want to be electric into electric. What are the common choices?
- Nissan Leaf FWD.
- Tesla FWD (small)
- Tesla RWD (large)
- ??? ... and all these sections should have some links to some common guides and some quick notes on their suitability, power, cost-ish, complexity, etc.

Batteries:

- Lead Acid deep cycle batteries. Never do this anymore. They were the only option until ~2012 (?), everyone used these. Some used marine batteries, some golf cart batteries, some ordinary storage batteries. They are currently entirely outdated. There are zero reasons to use them, not performance, not cheapness, not durability, nothing. Don't even consider it.

- Large format Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. These are recently, but now thoroughly outdated. They were popular from (? 2012-2016?). LiFe cells are lower voltage than other Lithium chemistries, and at the time were more durable and higher power. These were ordered typical by manufacturers like (? and ?), ranging in capacities per cell from (? to ?), and were physically large, like two hardcover books in size. You would generally have a single series string of these to add up to your total voltage. They turned out to not be as durable as expected, and are no longer cost effective in any way. Some DIY EVers will still buy them to increase voltage and storage of an earlier build, or to replace dead or dying cells, but no one converts with these in mind anymore.

- 18650-size Lithium Ion cells. This idea was popular in (year?) but almost never implemented or finished. Around this time 18650 format (thumb-sized) lithium cells became available for sale to ordinary consumers. Tesla uses this form factor for many of its vehicles because of their configurability. Small cells are more easily reoriented to match any shape. Typically dozens to hundreds of cells would be in parallel to make an equivalent large cell, and then many of those would be in series to create the pack. There is also a popular recycling movement to convert old laptop and tool pack cells into DIY Powerwall and off-grid storage, but for vehicles it's a long and difficult process. Very few people ever did this and it's no longer cost effective.

- OEM EV salvaged packs. While not available on the new market yet, salvaged packs from crashed or obsolete OEM EVs are a plentiful source of new packs, sufficient for the DIY EV community. Popular choices are:
- Chevy Volt (years?), large format cells with not great energy density, but having a reputation for high power (performance use) and durability. They're water-cooled.
- Nissan Leaf cells. First gen (years?) cells are prone to problems. Second gen (years?) cells are decent and commonplace. These are rectangular block cells the size of hardcover books, usually in cell series pairs (7.4v). They stack easily together and are clamped together with threaded rods inserted at their corners.
- Tesla packs. Tesla packs are difficult to disassemble groups of (? how many) cells in a block, with (number?) blocks in a typical car. Each block is fairly easy to separate but blocks are often ruined by attempting to access individual cells. They are typically more expensive than other OEM EV packs.
- ??? others, and, a moderate introduction should be available for each.

...

Anyway that's a start. If anyone wants to include missing options, fill in missing details, make corrections, etc. That'd be appreciated. I'll lump it together and start to edit the first post to fill that content in.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Oops, forgot controllers.

DC controllers:

- Forklift controllers. Cheap and readily available, but low voltage.

- 2 or 3 purpose build controllers generally from forklift or golf cart manufacturers.

- DIY community options
- Paul & Sabrina's (status?)
- Someone here was building a controller very simply a while ago, and then changed later to AC, I forget the name and this is all off the cuff or I'd be swamped in research.
- Who else?

AC Inverters:

- JHeuber's OpenInverter.org?

- Someone else built that DC controller that became AC?

- Someone today posted their open-source 4-man team that just finished an inverter?

- OEM EV as designed. Bring the whole EV brain and ECU and re-use the existing inverter.
- Leaf
- Tesla, various options that work or don't work, I don't know much about them.

- OEM EV hijacked. Damien is working on one of these for a Prius and Lexus inverter. In development. Open source.

... brain is mush. I'd like this to be a community effort, I'm just collecting the info and trying to make it beginner-friendly. I'm not actually much of an expert of what's done or why or what the options are.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Matt,

I take issue with much of the second post. Please delete it. This is diy. It is not do it Matt's way.

Respectfully, 

major


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> I take issue with much of the second post. Please delete it. This is diy. It is not do it Matt's way.


Hey, I'm sorry you hate me so much, but, you can either contribute in a useful way, or leave the discussion to people who want to have it rather than trying to dictate that other people aren't allowed to have it. 

No, I'm not going to delete an entire post that is a loose, roughly-assembled beginner draft specifically for people to critique, because you "take issue with it" and somehow thing it's me trying to tell people to build things "my way", which... I don't even know wtf you're talking about, as I described 20 different options.

If you can't be bothered to at least be detailed about your criticism, and contribute useful corrections, then all you've done is show up and introduce negativity and a smug authoritarian denigration of someone else's efforts. It's not helpful, it's not useful.

Frankly, I think you hate me so much, and you're so biased, that it doesn't matter what I say, you'll find a way to say it's worthless.

It's fine if I'm wrong, it's fine if anyone's wrong. It's a discussion. I'm sure things will be corrected 100 times here, but no, I'm not going to be bluntly censored by a curmudgeon with nothing more than an opinion and a declaration. 

Be a civil human being. You could use practice.


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## The_Sasquatch (Feb 11, 2018)

Cool idea. I will put together a post tonight expanding on battery options, I have been doing a ton of research in that area.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

The_Sasquatch said:


> Cool idea. I will put together a post tonight expanding on battery options, I have been doing a ton of research in that area.


Much appreciated.

I'm probably going to work it like a poor-man's wiki, checking back and updating the top post with details. I just left it blank for now because I expect it to change a lot at first.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Hey, I'm sorry you hate me so much, but, you can either contribute in a useful way, or leave the discussion to people who want to have it rather than trying to dictate that other people aren't allowed to have it.
> 
> No, I'm not going to delete an entire post that is a loose, roughly-assembled beginner draft specifically for people to critique, because you "take issue with it" and somehow thing it's me trying to tell people to build things "my way", which... I don't even know wtf you're talking about, as I described 20 different options.
> 
> ...


Why don't you take your own advice and work on 
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669&redir_from=668 
instead of pushing your opinions in the reader's face? Present options for equipment, not dictate what to use or "Don't even consider it."

BTW, my post was nice and civil. You resort to name calling.

major

{edit} There is also the #1 sticky in this forum, https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/want-build-ev-do-starti-6441.html


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

major said:


> instead of pushing your opinions in the reader's face? Present options for equipment, not dictate what to use or "Don't even consider it."


Part of good advice is to give some context for beginners rather than just saying "Here are 50 options, do your research". It's nice to say "Here are 3 options, but you probably want #1. Here's a few details".

Especially when people hear old advice, it helps to identify it as such and explain why times have changed. Outside of this community, I've had people argue with me that lithium can't be trusted, and I'll have to use 1000 lbs of lead-acids in my conversion and it's a stupid idea. People hear these things, and it's neat (to me) to identify some history of why that was once true and is no longer.

...

But go on then, since you strongly disagree, make a case for why people should be using deep cycle lead acid batteries in their EVs today. Point to some examples of people currently doing this. I'm happy to incorporate it if it's at all convincing.


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## x.l.r.8 (Oct 20, 2018)

You know no ones going to read past this. As pointed out there are threads already dedicated to this so maybe a review contribution of what’s available now and relevant instead of just another thread adding to the S:N problem. Especially as there are now more words written in retaliation and rebuke than information.


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## kodachrome (Apr 27, 2017)

Been researching this recently, my contribution, which is welcome for fact checking:


*Tesla Motor unit Options*
Now at least 3 dealers selling them (EVWest, HSRMotors, Zero-ev.co.uk):

Large Drive unit (132kg, 475+ HP), 9.73:1, open differential
Rear Small Drive unit (88kg 260+ HP), rear refers to placement in Model S Dual motor model. Rear unit is wider. 9.34:1, open differential internally installed.
Front Small Drive unit (93kg 260+ HP), front refers to placement in Model S Dual motor model. Front unit is taller. 9.34:1, open differential internally installed.
Model3 drive unit not yet commonly available and different type of motor from Model S. 

Comes with Invertor, Open Diff and Motor as one unit. Quaiffe LSD available from Zero-EV).
All models requires controller. 

*Controllers available:*
HSR Motors/057 Controller board, replicates Tesla CAN and therefore same performance as stock.
EVBMW (Damien Maguire) has open source boards that can run above stock HP, characteristics. 

Big gotcha so far is that the Tesla units are designed for mounting between wheels (eg in place of stock diff) which given their size, weight and deviation from ICE standard (engine in front, driveshaft to rear etc) is a legalisation impossibility in many regions around the world. Only Polykup (an independent conversion shop) has demoed a front engine bay install (in an Audi S5) by separating a large Tesla motor unit into its 3 major components (motor, inverter and diff).


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

kodachrome said:


> Been researching this recently, my contribution,


Great stuff. I'll probably include it verbatim. Thanks for putting in effort!

The thing is, almost everyone here is doing this kind of research, and there's a lot of reinventing the wheel. And newcomers are asking the same questions over and over, so, it's good to have more visibility and a place to send them.


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## alecjames (Apr 8, 2019)

I'm new to the forum and new to conversions - still at the 'thinking about it' stage. 

My view - its hard to find things in forum threads, especially at the start when I don't know what the question is / what the search terms might be.
It helps if general info is in a wiki or other similar central location with lots of links pointing at it or referring to it (so I can't miss it  ) 
Sorry - I know this is more work.

As for different opinions about the content in a discussion thread; I would prefer to see a clear viewpoint on the state of affairs 2019, if someone else has a different view I would find a pros and a cons discussion useful.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

alecjames said:


> My view - its hard to find things in forum threads, especially at the start when I don't know what the question is / what the search terms might be.
> It helps if general info is in a wiki or other similar central location with lots of links pointing at it or referring to it (so I can't miss it  )
> Sorry - I know this is more work.


There is a wiki within this forum (_EV Information_), but it has major issues:

the entries which are supposed to be the wiki articles have mostly disintegrated into discussions;
the associated discussion entries (in _DIY Wiki Discussion_) are not effectively used to build the wiki content, yet are not organized like the forum discussions; and,
many entries in the wiki section are not wiki articles at all, but just misplaced regular discussions.

If someone wanted to, they could try to fix the wiki articles (clean them up, then update them), rather than creating reference-style forum entries scattered through other categories.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> There is a wiki within this forum
> 
> If someone wanted to, they could try to fix the wiki articles (clean them up, then update them), rather than creating reference-style forum entries scattered through other categories.


I've organized "what's the best way to get the best information to people the easiest way" in other communities a few times. How to transition out of where a place is and into what it could be.

Wikis are great, if there is a large enough group of people updating them with new information regularly.

The problem with this community is that we don't have that active team archiving things. And we probably won't. When there is new discussion or new things we learn (which is sometimes hard to identify, as it occurs gradually enough that the point where it is now "a thing" is never clear), no one adds them to the knowledgebase.

Further, many people with the most knowledge, by virtue of having the most knowledge, aren't *using* the wiki or archive or whatnot, because they don't need to. So they don't notice on a regular basis that it's out of date.

With wikis, it's very much that it *must* be active and up to date, because the answer to any question has to be "Check the wiki, it's always up to date". As soon as the answer becomes "You could check the wiki but it's old info so search for..." then there's no point. You might as well just let people keep asking the same questions over and over.

Another pet peeve is "Oh it's on my github". That's great for people who are capable of replicating your work by themselves (other EEs/programmers), and are only taking advantage of the fact that you've already done the work. It's utterly worthless for someone who's two tiers of knowledge below your and just wants to learn how to do something.

Another awful one is "Just go read this thread". Where the info gradually changes and you have to keep track of a conversation. That's garbage. A concise summary is what's useful, not "go replay an entire conversation".

Almost none of the info in many places is written the way that is useful to person it's supposed to help, typically because the people who can help aren't good at putting themselves in the shoes of the people who need help.

Anyway, a thread like this is a terrible way of archiving information, but it's the best way I could think of, for collecting that information. Maybe it'll end up in an article or pushed to the wiki or something like that in the future. But in terms of community participation, I think a discussion thread is going to work best so that's what I'm trying.

Most importantly, actually doing something rather than complaining about it is what gets things done, so, it's great to see people stepping up and chipping in where they can.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

You REALLY want to help newbies at this? Post up a correlation between electric motors and ICE setups. They are NOT the same HP or performance, but there MUST be a correlation to help people get an idea on what they need to select to get the performance they want. 

I'm an ICE gearhead from way back, and I've been researching a conversion for years now but I had all but given up. I worked out the details for a supercharged 427/8 speed for my project, but decided to take one more stab at electric. The only way I've been able to get my head even halfway wrapped around a conversion correlation was when I stumbled across a Tesla S motor up for sale that listed its power specs. From there I was able to get a point baseline for performance so I finally have some sort of an idea on what I want. Example, a Tesla S has a 0-60 time of around 3 seconds and a quarter mile time in the 10-13 second range, weighs in around 4300lbs and uses (according to the site selling one) a 400KW motor. I know the numbers aren't completely accurate, just what I remember them being. At any rate, I finally felt confident about what I think I need in an EV motor that I finally moved into the next phase, asking manufacturers for information about specific motors.

People can read the HP and TQ for an ICE vehicle, and know what sort of performance to expect. If there was a way to read the HP and TQ for an EV and know what to expect, more people might be willing to pull the trigger. So, for those of you who blazed a trail, please, go a step further and make a Rosetta stone. You built it so you know what's in it. A chart that lists everyone's car and its drivetrain specs and an analysis of how it drives would be great. Something in a standardized format with defined parameters to compare one to another in an apples to apples style format would make this a lot easier. A visit to your local dyno shop for a couple of runs, followed by a trip to the drag strip for times would be an even bigger help. This sort of information would bridge the gap between ICE and EV for the mechanially minded, who are the only ones who would be attempting a conversion. Those who aren't mechanically inclined would be more likely to buy an OEM. I realize this is both asking for a lot of work on everyone's behalf while also asking for a lot of money to be spent, but it would help drive more conversions. I can even suggest a few fields:
- Car weight before conversion
- Car weight after conversion
- Car cd (available online)
- Drivetrain specs
- Power specs
- Range
- Power consumption at WOT
- Power consumption on level ground at 10-100MPH in 10MPH increments
- Power consumption when pulling a hill (steep, moderate, shallow) at city/highway speed
- Towing capacity
- 0-60, 1/8 mile, 1/4 time (1/4 mile tracks can provide all 3)
- HP/TQ rated on a dyno. The dyno will read your EV like it is an ICE, and will convert it into a graph an ICE minded person can understand.
- Any other data fields you think would be useful

This information can also give you a baseline record for your own use, or if you want to see how someone else's controller or battery works with your motor so it's not all one way here. Everyone can benefit.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

" There are zero reasons to use them [lead-acid], not performance, not cheapness, not durability, nothing."

Actually, there *are* good reasons to use them.

The problem with this thread is that you are pretending solve a fictitious/hypothetical problem, making design compromises, which is called "engineering", without defining the constraints and the problem set.

Example. I live in a cold climate. My usage model is to go into town twice a month for supplies, the vehicle sits there the rest of the time...outside, getting charged by [your favorite energy source...for me, it'd be a Plutonium-driven TEG, because a NASA buddy had one lying around, unused]. A lithium battery is probably the WORST choice and lead-acid is favored. Even for merely traction in the snow...

Or not needing to have an f'ing heater running 24/7, which makes an F-350 start to look economical with my mission profile.

Another example - the guy who got a free DC forklift motor, total noob. You threw him out with the bathwater by eroding his confidence through "obsolete" namecalling.

You can't win on this thread. Evar.

All you're doing is declaring yourself to be a winner, bolstered by calling any critic or counter-arguer a loser.

If there was one panacea, *everybody* would be doing it. Somebody would offer a complete kit (because, according to you, each block only has one optimal choice, cost be damned). 

But there isn't - everyone's needs, mission profile, resources, and the fill level of their bags of money are different. If they weren't you could pick this and that and put together a "beginner's cookbook". Or offer a kit. EV West would have a long time ago. But they haven't.

There's also the Heisenberg Principle...mess with something and it changes. Two guys using an EV West motor, or battery, are very different than 400 guys seeking out that same motor from EV West, or even from a Tesla Model S, for example. Again -- resources. Availability. Cost. Speed. Torque. Living in Illinois vs Oregon. Alaska vs California. Room in the vehicle itself. Weight & balance. Duty cycle ("driven by a little old lady on Sundays, a quarter mile at a time"), etc etc etc

While you might think you're god's gift to a universal EV build, it's weapons-grade bullshit to even think there is one.

There's no such thing.

All you can do is put the choices out there and their specs/capabilities. Going beyond that, even in the best interests of a total rookie, by making the selections, or even listing strengths/weaknesses (like you did with lead-acid) without understanding each builder's constraints, problem set, mission profile, resources, skillset, etc, is doing them a huge disservice.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Actually, there *are* good reasons to use them. Example. I live in a cold climate.


I understand your argument, I just don't think it has much merit. If other people agree strongly with you, I'm open to reconsider, but this is exactly the kind of thing I think should be nipped in the bud for beginners. That thinking that Lead-acid batteries in 2019 for an EV is a viable, useful option worth considering. I think it would make sense to include an aside or a link about why Lead-Acids used to be popular, and why no one in the community choose to use them anymore.

But, that's the takeaway. No one chooses to use them anymore.

I mean, there's technically viable reasons to include a horse and buggy as your method of transportation, but that's so unlikely to be useful information to anyone that "What vehicle should I drive" summaries don't include it. I suppose equestrian fanatics may be upset, but that does't make their advice useful.

Finland (?) is leading the world in EV sales. Finland is cold.

What do literally 100% of OEM EVs use for batteries? Lithium.

The case for Lead-acid in EVs is dead when the combined knowledge and engineering forces of the entire planet has concluded there is no reason to use them in EVs. To say otherwise is to think you've come up with something that the rest of the planet could not. There are some circumstances where the DIY solution differs from the new market, but I don't think that's the case you're making here.

Another way of thinking about it... Lead-acids are so non-durable that gasoline is more cost effective, even if electrical energy is free. Just in replacement cost over their expected lifecycle.

Another way of thinking about it... when's the last time someone build a DIY EV using lead-acid? And, if they did, was it foolish of them to do so? Of the people who may read this, what percentage of them is it better advice to get them to consider lead-acid, than it is to tell them it's almost certainly not worth considering and give them a footnote if they're really curious to read more?



> Another example - the guy who got a free DC forklift motor, total noob. You threw him out with the bathwater by eroding his confidence through "obsolete" namecalling.


Huh?

What guy?

Did you read what I wrote about DC forklift motors? Scroll up and re-read it, because you're arguing against something I didn't say. Here's what I actually wrote for my notes on the topic, in a draft. *"Cheapest option is a DC forklift motor. Free-$200 anywhere in the world. This is still a viable build. There is a giant thread telling how, we should probably summarize and photo-journal those. These were popular 25 years ago to 5 years ago, and are still somewhat common today for converters."*

Who's confidence did I erode? Where did I use the word "obsolete"? If I had (I didn't), how is calling a technology "obsolete" namecalling?

I don't understand your criticism.

I am generally writing observationally, based on what I see people building in the end, after they slog their way through all the options, and trying to make that path shorter for them.



> You can't win on this thread. Evar. All you're doing is declaring yourself to be a winner, bolstered by calling any critic or counter-arguer a loser.


Huh? Where are you reading that? This seems like you're arguing with a completely different person.

I'm not trying to win. I'm trying to kickstart writing a summary. I invited and welcome criticism. I never called anyone a loser for being critical. What I actually said was to be "usefully critical", rather than just demanding someone delete content with no explanation given.



> If there was one panacea, *everybody* would be doing it. Somebody would offer a complete kit (because, according to you, each block only has one optimal choice, cost be damned).


That is not how DIY works on large or expensive projects, so I disagree with your assertion.

There are hundreds of car options available. There is no sense in a generic "kit". The mechanical constraints of each donor car is fairly unique in terms of a solution.

Further, economic constraints matter too. What someone can find in their area and for what price is widely variable.

Just because there is not a kit, does not mean that a summary of the state of affairs of the meta of the current DIY EV community has no value. Quite the opposite. It means that there are some choices to make, that most people are leaning in a certain direction, and here's how to think about the choices available to you based on your preferences for performance, budget, suitability, etc.



> While you might think you're god's gift to a universal EV build, it's weapons-grade bullshit to even think there is one.


Honestly you keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me over things I didn't say, don't think, haven't implied, etc. I invite criticism and instead you're openly hostile.

What I did was kickstart a community project to address what I think is the biggest hole in our knowledgebase, and be the easiest way to fill that gap for people who join the community.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Telco said:


> You REALLY want to help newbies at this? Post up a correlation between electric motors and ICE setups.


That's something I'm happy to collimate but I'm too far out of the loop.

DIY EVs are at 2 extremes, generally:

1 - The frugal.
2 - The performance-minded.

I see a lot more of the frugal here, partially I think because performance-minded people are more secretive due to their competitiveness and due to the money involved. Damien ran into that a few months ago, two different groups of professional racers had the same problem with something he built, that he helped tweak to fix, but I think some of them took most of his solution and then finally figured out a result, and, despite being open-source, didn't want to share it. They wanted their competitive advantage.

I see a lot of value in someone contributing things from a performance perspective, that's important. But to be extra-specific goes a bit against the point of this guide. I think a solid overview of the basics is important to know what kinds of ballparks to expect (though apples-to-oranges is going to be a bit of an issue).

I could write up a very loose overview but I wouldn't trust my finger being on the pulse of that part of the community much. Happy to collect and incorporate whatever anyone else contributes though.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Telco said:


> You REALLY want to help newbies at this? Post up a correlation between electric motors and ICE setups. They are NOT the same HP or performance, but there MUST be a correlation to help people get an idea on what they need to select to get the performance they want.


The trouble is that there isn't

Even with IC engines there is a difference between the "I want 200,000 miles of reliable operation" and I want to go really really fast for a few seconds

With electric motors that difference is much much greater!

I'm using a 10 kW motor - but it's propelling a road legal car up to 93 mph at the end of the 1/8th - I'm "feeding it" over 400 kW

The various production EV's have motors intended to run for 300,000 miles with no warranty failures
How much more will they take in a car used on the track?

You will probably find the batteries and controller much more of a limit


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

"What I did was kickstart a community project to address what I think is the biggest hole in our knowledgebase, and be the easiest way to fill that gap for people who join the community."

You're again being busy defending *your* choices to *your* problem set, and seem to be completely missing my point.
"Who's done lead acid lately?" is crowdthink nonsense. It all depends on the problem being solved...not goading someone into the direction a mob typically takes. Yes, there are still people doing lead-acid, including OEMs. 

And if you constrain to solving a particular problem set, you'll miss the entire reason for doing an EV conversion...a commercially available EV doesn't solve the problem, whereas a customized machine does. 

For me, a "ludicrous" Tesla is not ludicrous enough, and for the cost to get what I want, it has to last more than a half dozen times, before a lifetime software throttledown, and it has to get the groceries reliably to enable its displacement of a 650HP ICE in the stable (which is a following project...a hybrid conversion for that one). That's quite different than someone wanting to "hypermile", or someone wanting a reliable daily commuter, or someone wanting to build a work truck ("how about using a Ford Ranger...is it "easy"?"), or someone wanting to do their part for climate change.

The biggest hole in "our" knowledgebase is knowledge, not decisionmaking. The latter you can't do for anyone, though I perceive that's exactly what you're trying to do, because your assumptions will be incorrect due to every problem set being different. The former is formidable, in itself because it's an unbiased database -- one which actually enables the decision to use lead acid for a problem set that selects it as an optimal choice (like sitting out in the weather... a lot of Tesla owners, this past winter, were in shock after discovering their cars being dead after a couple of days of being unplugged, Norway be damned). A huge, neverending, database that gets appended for every noob that comes along...which is why forums have multiple threads on noob projects. Can you put all that in one thread? Maybe. But its signal to noise ratio's gunna suck as every noob that comes along starts their post with "yeah, but..."

You also completely missed to point on a kit -- since you're deciding everything else, you can decide on a host vehicle as well. Something readily available and cheap. Something that also addresses the environmental conscience that justifies the spend vs dropping an LS engine into a Bug. Then, according to you, you can take a dichotomy from there..."performance" and cost. 

As was said by someone else here, the cost of DIY is very rarely economically viable, though; it's naive to think "I'll save money on gas", and one is better off procuring a Leaf and maybe tweaking it if that's, or treehugging's, the goal.

The definition of "hobby" is throwing non-justifiable amounts of money at something to pass time or gain knowledge. Conversions are a hobby -- anyone trying to make a commercial go at it, or thinking they'll get some kind of payback, on their time, alone, would be insane to think so if they can't do all, or most, of the engineering without a cookbook and without resorting to the 80/20 rule and coming here for the 80 instead of the 20.

I'm going to grab a bag of popcorn and watch where this goes. Surprise me. I'm open minded, but, being a curmudgeon, I'm skeptical this will go anywhere without being optimized for one specific problem set -- yours.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> You're again being busy defending *your* choices to *your* problem set, and seem to be completely missing my point.


I don't have a choice to be "defending" when you decided to make bizarre attacks.

You set that narrative when you made an attack. At that point I can either accept and agree with your nutty assertion, or refute it. I refute it, then you set the narrative again by saying I'm "being defensive".



> "Who's done lead acid lately?" is crowdthink nonsense. It all depends on the problem being solved. [...] Yes, there are still people doing lead-acid, including OEMs.


I think, if you showed up in a beginner's thread, asking about batteries, and started recommending Lead Acids, you'd get laughed at by everyone else in that thread.

Honestly, I can't think of the last time ANYONE suggested it. No one gives that as advice. It's not useful advice for anyone. This really seems to be a sticking point for you.

I guess I'm wrong about 100% of OEMs being lithium. Can you point out some sources on which OEMs are using lead-acids? That's interesting enough to note.



> The latter you can't do for anyone, though I perceive that's exactly what you're trying to do, because your assumptions will be incorrect due to every problem set being different.


Fer Christsakes, tone down the rhetoric.

Jesus, all I'm trying to do is create a helpful beginner document, and you're making it seem like there's no place in the world for that. Everyone better get a PhD and to read 1000 forum threads before they dare start making any decisions about EVs.



> I'm skeptical this will go anywhere without being optimized for one specific problem set -- yours.


There are multiple options, I don't know what you're saying otherwise. Actually read what I wrote in my loose notes of what sections should mention.

There are many options for motors both in type and size. 
There are many options for controllers. 
There are many options for battery sources. 
There are many options for donor vehicles.
Etc.

You can keep trying to declare my efforts to force everyone to build one thing one way. That's not what I wrote, that's not what I intend to write.

But now thanks to a few people jumping in immediately to pick fights, pretty much ruined the positive outlook of this thread and anyone wanting to contribute. Mission accomplished contrarian jerks.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the idea that there is no comparison, there just isn't a comparison YET. This is the problem I keep running into, people saying there is no way to compare the two. Both ICE and EM move a vehicle in the same way, by turning the tires, therefore they can be directly compared on the road, on the dragstrip and on the dyno. A converted vehicle's specs and performance can be almost directly compared with the same vehicle's performance as an ICE powered rig. With a list showing this information, an ICE guy can start to look at EMs and say, "To get this result in that car, I need to use these components." And, the more participants we get, the better the correlation would be. This isn't just about power performance either, knowing the results others are getting for range and efficiency will help people make better choices for their needs. Better choices make happier converters, and happier converters help talk more people into making the switch.

As for me, I am looking at the higher performance side of this, but not as a professional racer. If I do go electric, I'd be glad to post my build and my real world results. One thing I will do that I wasn't planning to, my project is still running. I will visit the drag strip and a dyno before I do anything to get a baseline with the anemic V6 it has now. If I do go electric, I can post both for a direct comparison.

Oh, and there's another thing that would help newbs on this thread, if an administrator would get out a mop and clean up the pissing contest. Disagreeing is one thing, but butting heads is quite another.


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## GeneralElectric (Feb 3, 2019)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> ---- Forward ----
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> ...



Hi Matt, 



For what it's worth, from a newbie's perspective I think this is a fantastic idea. I have spent many, many hours scouring wikis, threads, builds, discussions, videos etc on here and elsewhere over the last year. Learnt a lot but it also took loads of effort. A central "state of play in 2019" repository would have been tremendously useful. 



My project is currently on ice due to the realisation that current regulatory complications here in Spain where I live make it unviable (too expensive to bother, basically), but I applaud your initiative and am keen to see how this thread develops. Hopefully I'll give my conversion another shot later on. 



Regards
Peter


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

This is a good idea, though it seems hard to execute as a thread or wiki without meandering in the former case and getting stale in the latter...but worth an update and effort nonetheless.

A page of specs would probably do the trick. You could show with numbers the size, weight, power, and cost of various batteries, motors, and other components. What the limitations of current aftermarket controllers are vs the involvement of getting a full OEM solution running, etc...

I had a good comparison of motors and batteries, but I deleted it once I figured out my plan...The short answer was that the Leaf motor/battery is the best bang-for-buck, and the Tesla stuff is the best bang. Both solutions have a lot more hassle than off-the-shelf components, but the price for performance _plummets_ when you deviate from OEM salvage.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Tremelune said:


> ..The short answer was that the Leaf motor/battery is the best bang-for-buck, and the Tesla stuff is the best bang. Both solutions have a lot more hassle than off-the-shelf components, but the price for performance _plummets_ when you deviate from OEM salvage.


Disagree I would say that the price for performance bifurcates 
You can go to "New" parts especially AC - which are expensive and wimpy
Or Old DC parts which are a LOT cheaper than salvage EV parts and at least as powerful - sophisticated? NO - powerful - YES


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## martindell (May 12, 2019)

Just joined the forum because I need help getting started on a project. As a newbie, I don't know what I don't know, so I'd really appreciate a 'getting started' guide as you've outlined. I spent a good few hours browsing around but getting confused with dated and conflicting advice. So, yes please, be opinionated but also help me understand the reasoning so that I can learn how stuff works. Thanks in advance for your help, I'll pay it forward as soon as I have any idea what i'm doing


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Disagree I would say that the price for performance bifurcates
> You can go to "New" parts especially AC - which are expensive and wimpy
> Or Old DC parts which are a LOT cheaper than salvage EV parts and at least as powerful - sophisticated? NO - powerful - YES


A Leaf motor puts out over 200ftlb, runs to 10k RPM, has an option for 8:1 gear reduction if you want it, and can be had for $500 (plus gearbox). What forklift motor can touch that for a car you would want to drive on the street?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Disagree I would say that the price for performance bifurcates
> You can go to "New" parts especially AC - which are expensive and wimpy
> Or Old DC parts which are a LOT cheaper than salvage EV parts and at least as powerful - sophisticated? NO - powerful - YES





Tremelune said:


> A Leaf motor puts out over 200ftlb, runs to 10k RPM, has an option for 8:1 gear reduction if you want it, and can be had for $500 (plus gearbox). What forklift motor can touch that for a car you would want to drive on the street?


I don't think that comparison - between OEM salvage and "forklift" motors - is what Duncan is talking about. His point is that among the alternatives which are *not* OEM salvage, there are two very different paths, and he is comparing those two non-OEM-salvage paths:

new aftermarket components (e.g. AC motors from HPEVS), or
old brushed DC motors

Of course, it's not that simple. Not all new aftermarket motors are "wimpy", even though the most popular ones marketed for DIY conversions (such as the HPEVS line) are. The more powerful aftermarket AC motors are even more expensive.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Tremelune said:


> A Leaf motor puts out over 200ftlb, runs to 10k RPM, has an option for 8:1 gear reduction if you want it, and can be had for $500 (plus gearbox). What forklift motor can touch that for a car you would want to drive on the street?


My 10 kW Hitachi forklift motor cost $100 and in my "Street car" will blow away anything with a "Leaf" motor

But as Brian said I was comparing it to aftermarket motors NOT OEM salvage which is definitely the best way to go these days


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Just wanted to post and say I've been neglecting this thread but haven't abandoned it.

I'm in the process of getting my EV donor vehicle here, this week hopefully.

Please continue to post things you would like answered, or answers to things questioned, or criticism of points made or engage in civil discussion. Every little bit that people can chip in helps.

Ideally I will not be the source of most of this info, I'm just going to be piecing it together in a coherent way.

Things like... "What are people using for a BMS these days?" I don't actually know. If someone asked that question I wouldn't know what to tell them, or what the current meta is for BMS selection.

And so on, all the stuff that was fairly well documented 10 years ago, a modern update.


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## joekitch (Sep 13, 2013)

it'll be worth mentioning how much better the model 3 drive unit is than the P85 rear drive. Smaller, more efficient, higher power potential, WAAAAY better active cooling. P85s would overheat after one lap but model 3s just keep rolling.

also i wonder what the state of controllers is? Like, if i want to use nissan leaf cells (because of their super stackable form factor) but a tesla front drive motor (because of decent power and small size) what controller(s) would i need to make it work? 

Heck, for that matter, what tesla motors are even cracked yet to be externally controllable? i know the old P85s are open season but i don't know who's working on model 3 drive unit stuff


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## Kayle (May 16, 2019)

Good Afternoon, new member (who dis?) with a few questions I think would be good for beginners to know (that I did not necessarily find a clear answer on in the stickies/wiki):

1a) What are the effects of supplying a motor with less voltage than it's rated for? More voltage than rated?

1b) Similar, effects of less/more amperage than rated?

1c) Similar, effects of less/more power (kW) than rated?

2) If a user is targeting a specific driving profile (such as higher max speed, or quicker acceleration), what aspects of the system do they prioritize (V, A, etc)?

Hopefully I'll have my concept finalized and I can start planning a budget soon, but these are some (possibly safety) things that I had trouble tracking down.


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## Smatt (Jun 25, 2019)

Another Newb here. I do feel this thread has value, but not with all the heckling, which just dilutes the thread & its usefulness!


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## TargaTuesday (Jul 4, 2019)

Another new member. Appreciate the idea behind this thread and hope to discover more useful info as I explore the forums here.


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## SirNick (Jun 14, 2015)

I saw this in a topic summary email and immediately thought - oh, that would be helpful! I started an EV conversion of a Ghia a couple years ago. It's in stasis for a few reasons (funds, house repair, other hobbies), and I'm itching to get back to it. To that end, I could really use a re-cap of the last few years.

One problem I ran into was the recent shipping constraints on battery cells. I'm doing the 18650 brick thing because it's the most flexible package. I can customize modules and pack them into the space available. I had chosen the Samsung INR 29E cells at the time. It's been a while, technology has marched on, so what's new?

I was also surprised at the lack of mention of HPEVS. Like it just vanished into thin air. I was really worried they had closed up shop, until later yak about them being too wimpy. At least it's still a viable option then. Good. Great for bike conversions too.

So what I would personally want from this thread is "here's what you missed while you were away." Obviously if you were new, it would be just as useful as a "here's what your current options are" thing.

I don't mind some gentle nudging but, well.. let's take the LA argument. I agree that lead acid is almost never the right choice, but would prefer that to be a pro/con list and leave it up to everyone to decide. Maybe accessibility and 20 mile range is enough - maybe it's a stop gap while someone grapples with the concept of potent cells, BMSes, and dozens of choices. I mean it works, it's just a crappy option. An option nonetheless. If I were totally unaware, I would naturally see it as an obvious candidate - and would find it useful to know that, yes, people have thought about it - done it - moved on for better options.

What is NOT useful is the criticism (and for that matter the rebuttals.) If you have any willingness to help others, please just go back and voluntarily remove that noise. It's not helpful to anyone. It just drowns out the useful info.

I would love to see this thread become a yearly tradition. Here's last year's, here's a summary of what has changed, here's a collection of stand-out discussions of this OEM battery or this controller development thread, etc.

It's hard to start out in hobbies like this because the learning curve is steep, the information is scattered, and you're always jumping in to the middle of a conversation where you haven't even learned the vocabulary. Nothing makes sense until you've absorbed it for a long while. Forum members often have better things to do than be someone's personal mentor, so concise summary threads are INVALUABLE road maps into foreign territory.


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## SOC100% (Sep 23, 2020)

You might find something informative in this pdf


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