# A place selling Nissan Leaf batteries



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

69er said:


> Has anyone purchased batteries from this place and what was the experience?


What place?


----------



## 69er (Oct 4, 2009)

Great ... my bad ... here's the link to the place and the Nissan Leaf battery they seem to be selling:

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...new-11kw-h-battery-block-182v-60ah&Itemid=605


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

$.23 a wh is an amazing price for decent cells I wonder if they are used and how many KM or cycles ???


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

So if I read this correctly then 4 of these make up the 24kHw pack of the Leaf? Or about 10K$ for a complete new Leaf pack.

Steve


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

hbthink said:


> So if I read this correctly then 4 of these make up the 24kHw pack of the Leaf? Or about 10K$ for a complete new Leaf pack.
> 
> Steve


 I don't think so.... The leaf is 24kw but these claim 11kw so 2 of these is 22kw and maybe the leaf just has another couple cells in series to make 24? 

But 4 would not make sense.


----------



## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

If you use the single cell capacity of 33.1 Ah @ 3.8V you get 125.78Wh per cell.
There are 4 cells per module giving 503.12Wh.
24 modules per battery block gives 12kWh of stored energy.

So you would need 2 blocks for 24kWh.


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah I just saw it. It says they are rated at 12kw but 11 usable.
This is a smoking deal.


----------



## Mad Professor (Dec 18, 2010)

I am going to watch this thread.
I wonder what the shipping cost to the UK would be.


----------



## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

So are these packs put in series to make for 360 volts? Would you have to have a charger that is specifically meant for this chemistry? What balancing system would you have to have and how much would the balancing system cost?


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Inframan said:


> So are these packs put in series to make for 360 volts?


yes



Inframan said:


> Would you have to have a charger that is specifically meant for this chemistry?


Yes, these are the type of batteries that light on fire violently or explode if not properly charged and balanced, they aren't nice and safe like LIFEPO4



Inframan said:


> What balancing system would you have to have and how much would the balancing system cost?


Buy a crashed leaf and you will have it. Otherwise likely as much as the batteries cost to purchase.

That said I would love to buy one of these sticky widgets, anyone willing to do the engineering to figure out how to interface to the battery or steel a charger out of a leaf and get it to work on the bench 

On an off topic this is a LOS VEGAS LLC, understand that the rules in Nevada concerning sales out of state are rather different than the rest of the universe, more like trying to order something out of Bankok.

But please someone order one and let me know, even without the ceramic separators and the rapid capacity loss these would be interesting.


----------



## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

anyone buy some of these yet?

I am seriously considering them for my project.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

jddcircuit said:


> anyone buy some of these yet?
> 
> I am seriously considering them for my project.


I am very tempted to buy the whole slug, the seller is a bit "skeptical" of anyone using one for something usefull. He was saying I need to buy a prius when I already own 2 evs and an insight to "use" the battery.

He also feels that the onboard charger on the leaf cannot be used even with the BCM & Harness. Not really sure what it would want over CAM bus but if the car is crap take the BCM, ECM, harness and the whole slug, still should be cheaper than a correct BMS and charger given the useless nature of those parts on the leaf.

All it takes is one brave, well connected, intellegent soul and these things will sell like wildfire but without a good way to charge and monitor they will suck 30ahr and 360v = pain in the arse.

Ah well.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

jddcircuit said:


> anyone buy some of these yet?
> 
> I am seriously considering them for my project.


The testing thread of the Nissan Leaf cells from endless-sphere made them seem a tad big saggy. Can't remember the numbers and I just ran out of time to search for the thread but the information there might help you a bit with identifying if they have enough grunt for your application. Based on what they said, the issues in Phoenix and similar areas, and how much the battery gauge soars on quick charges, I have a hard time considering them. There was a time where I was looking to harvest a pack from a crunchy Leaf but decided against it. I might consider it to try to harvest the Chademo components but I'm not sure how much component from the Leaf is actually needed to initiate the communication and level 3 charging is. I later decided I didn't care at all about level 3 once I found the nearest level 3 station is 280 miles from the Twin Cities. On the plus side, we have Tesla supercharging here. The Chademo rollout is a joke for the purpose I'd want it for. Seems great for the west coast north-south travel though.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Jack R at EVTV has some and is testing now.
He seem enthusiastic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZuu4YMhXI0&feature=youtu.be&t=24m46s

..and this was the ES cell test thread..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52162&hilit=leaf+cells


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Jack R at EVTV has some and is testing now.
> He seem enthusiastic.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZuu4YMhXI0&feature=youtu.be&t=24m46s
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure how this will work:

He'll buy them all for next to nothing, sell them for twice what he paid, tell people they are stupid if they use BMS, and then everyone will burn down their cars thinking these work same way as LiFePO4.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Am I correct in saying that those batteries on are 115.79kwr per kg?
If so, that pales in comparison to Tesla's S Panasonic batteries at 245kwr per kg.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

sunworksco said:


> Am I correct in saying that those batteries on are 115.79kwr per kg?
> If so, that pales in comparison to Tesla's S Panasonic batteries at 245kwr per kg.


 Not quite.
you are quoting a "cell" level energy density..
so the figure for the Leaf cell should be 157 Whr/kg
( 33.1 Ahr with a cell weight of 799gms)


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

sunworksco said:


> If so, that pales in comparison to Tesla's S Panasonic batteries at 245kwr per kg.


As an engineering exercise I went through the motions needed to make a pack with 18650 cells and was not able to find a source that would sell me these cells for anything reasonable in the quantities I wanted. It is almost cheaper to buy a Tesla and scrap the car just for the batteries. So you can't save money that way. You probably have to order 100k cells to get their attention.

You can get older cells from used laptop packs really cheaply. Around $0.50 each or less. Jehu Garcia is working through this process and has some Youtube videos about his progress so far. I suspect he has a single 3.7v 300 ah module in his van now or maybe this week for testing.

One huge problem is these cells can not put out a lot of power so you have to parallel a lot of them to use with the typical DIY motor/controller setups. Most of the OEM arrangements run higher voltages and lower currents. DIY setups for simplicity typically run much lower voltage. I think of 144 volts as the bottom end of the scale. A 144 volt system has up until recently been considered a high voltage system. You can only safely pull about 5 amps out of these cells so if you want a pack that can do 500 amps and drive a Curtis 144 volt controller you have to parallel a minimum of 100 cells giving a 220ah pack. Maxing the voltage you need 40 modules in series making this a 40S100P pack of 4000 total cells. This would be a 32.5kwh pack. If you go to the 650 A Curtis you need to parallel a few more cells to reach that capability (130 cells) but the max voltage that controller allows would limit you about 26 cells. So a 26S130P pack consisting of 3380 cells or about 27.5kwh. To do a minimum pack for my car I would want 192 volts at 1000 amps so this means 52S200P for a cell count of 10400 cells and a capacity of 84.7kwh which is about the same capactiy as the Tesla S pack. To do 1000 amps at full Soliton voltage would mean an 80S200P pack 16000 cells or 130.2kwh. And these are kind of minimum parallel recommendations. I think you would want to increase these suggestions somewhat. Where are you going to put all these batteries? You will get the range but do you have room for them in a car?

Next problem is mechanical and environmental. Tying together this many cells is a monumental task. These cells are rather fragile and if allowed to overheat will cause a chain reaction burning down the whole car. It takes really good engineering to mechanically connect the cells and provide cooling for when they get hot and warming for use when it is cold. I think you could probably eliminate the cooling requirement entirely if you never draw more than 1C but that more than doubles the number of cells you need in parallel.

Can it be done? sure. Is it practical for a DIY? My answer was no but Jehu might decide otherwise and he has room in his vehicle for them.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I will be needing two 5kwr battery packs for two Astroflight 4535 100volt motors.
I would like the 2 packs to weigh less than 200lbs.
The EV will weigh around 800lbs. With a 200lb. Battery pack.


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

sunworksco said:


> I will be needing two 5kwr battery packs for two Astroflight 4535 100volt motors.
> I would like the 2 packs to weigh less than 200lbs.


 So you need 2 off , 5kWhr, 100V, packs capable of 15kW (150A) supply ( continuous ?)..
That would mean a 26s, 20p pack of 520 cells with a 3Ahr, 5C rating.
That ia a big pack of expensive cells.
Actually i dont think there are any 3Ahr 18650 cells rated for 5 C continuous ! ...but lets assume the 15kW is only a "burst" demand , and 2-3 C is continuous so a high quality cell might do it.
Certainly the lightest option....
..But you still have to deal with a pack of 520 individual cells to assemble, connect, fuse, BMS (?), insulate, etc etc...... no small task !
and at $5-$8 per cell ( + assembly components) ..not inexpensive !
That $3k -$4.5k per pack 

Using those Leaf cells..
13 modules of 7.6 V 65Ahr gives you a 6.5kWhr pack, (easy 150 A continuous), with few simple connections ( bolted connects) , , for about $1700 at $125 per module .. and still within your 100lb target weight.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I just watched the EVTV YouTube video about the used Leaf batteries and think this might be a better option.
I am considering using only 1 Astroflight 4535, instead of 2 motors and use a modified Honda limited slip deferential with belt drive. The motor will be controlled by a Sevcon Gen4.
How would this change the battery pack, or not, using the Leaf batteries?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

sunworksco said:


> I just watched the EVTV YouTube video about the used Leaf batteries and think this might be a better option.
> I am considering using only 1 Astroflight 4535, instead of 2 motors and use a modified Honda limited slip deferential with belt drive. The motor will be controlled by a Sevcon Gen4.
> How would this change the battery pack, or not, using the Leaf batteries?


I don't really understand what you are doing,
I thought you were designing a reverse trike - so you would drive the rear wheel and a diff would be completely unnecessary


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I am staying with front wheel drive. A reverse trike that is rear driven does not provide much suspension control. A rear driven reverse trike is much like a pendulum and causes spin outs when under panic maneuvers.
Front wheel drive also provides better brake regen.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is a type of LSD that can be used but with a belt drive pulley.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

sunworksco said:


> I am staying with front wheel drive. A reverse trike that is rear driven does not provide much suspension control. A rear driven reverse trike is much like a pendulum and causes spin outs when under panic maneuvers.
> Front wheel drive also provides better brake regen.



The old Morgan three wheelers were great fun to drive 

not at all sure I would agree about spin-outs under panic maneuvers,
In fact as I think about it I disagree completely, 
I used to have a very powerful FWD car
(mini with a Lancia twin cam)

In a FWD if you lift mid corner you will go into over-steer or if in a powerful car with decent drip you will swap ends so fast that your eyeballs will bulge

A RWD car will tend to go into under-steer if you lift off - and that definitely includes Morgan 3 wheelers

RWD goes into over-steer if you apply too much power

If you are going to put a decent amount of power down then be aware FWD can be much MORE tricky than RWD,

At low power levels this is less of an issue - but then you don't need an LSD

On that point have you driven a powerful FWD car with an LSD?

I drove a Cooper S with an LSD - it was a monster, nearly impossible to keep it in one lane

FWD will give you better brake re-gen - BUT will it
re-gen is for light to moderate braking, 
your brakes are much more powerful than your drive system so for heavy braking you will use the friction brakes
(My Subaru is 140hp its brakes can absorb over 600hp)
You will be able to do most of your re-gen braking using the rear wheel - the times when you are braking more strongly you should probably be using the friction brakes


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Duncan said:


> The old Morgan three wheelers were great fun to drive


 OLD ..what do you mean...old!!
http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/superdryedition.html


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

*Looks like a sophmore CAD design project*



sunworksco said:


> Here is a type of LSD that can be used but with a belt drive pulley.


No regard for commonality--just go to the bins and throw in a mix of different fasteners, no countersink for the heads of the SHCS, accessibility (what's that?) of fasteners after installation, much fun to remove/replace the aluminum sprocket after the chain grinds it up, grease for the LSD but no grease fittings on the pillowblock bearings?

But it sure do shine good...


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

How would you change the belt on that diff when it gets worn/damaged ?
and why do you need limited slip with 15 kW ?


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

How would you change the belt on that diff when it gets worn/damaged ?
and why do you need limited slip with 15 kW ?

I will be using a Kevlar belt that will last many years. 
To replace the belt, I will remove the axle shaft and unbolt one mounting bracket.

In a FWD if you lift mid corner you will go into over-steer or if in a powerful car with decent drip you will swap ends so fast that your eyeballs will bulge.

For this fact, I am placing the motor ahead of the front axle and the battery pack behind the axle.

I may use the Plettenberg 30kw motor.
The Nova 30, a 30 kW motor weighing in at 5 kg turning at 3300 RPM at 120 V developing 105 NM of torque.
This is approximately 40 hp and weighs in at 11 pounds.
The LSD will give me slip when cornering.
I have driven FWD with LSD and like the way it feels.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm thinking about using 22 Leaf battery modules in my R-Trike.
This will weigh about 184lbs.

http://youtu.be/LRG7pB1-IWs

http://youtu.be/FiyRxxbkHH0

http://youtu.be/Mun1Mct6JEs


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

69er said:


> Has anyone purchased batteries from this place and what was the experience?


I am using 10 of the Leaf modules in my Toyota, charging it to 82 volts without a BMS. They were the same price as 100Ah AGMs at a forth the weight, although they are only 60 Ah. As funds become available, I plan to double up to get to 120 Ah. I purchased them from the vendor in question. They have been very good to work with. 

3.8v 30Ah nominal for each cell, 4 cells 
per module, 2 series 2 parallel, 7.6v 60Ah 
per module.

Total pack - 10 modules:
76v nominal
84v max


----------



## Angelito (Jul 5, 2013)

Fatt Vette I too want to order ten of these, can you kindly tell us the charger that you used to charge your batteries? Thank you..


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

Angelito said:


> Fatt Vette I too want to order ten of these, can you kindly tell us the charger that you used to charge your batteries? Thank you..


I'm using an Elcon PFC 2500 from EVolve Electrics.


----------



## Angelito (Jul 5, 2013)

Fatt Vette said:


> I'm using an Elcon PFC 2500 from EVolve Electrics.


Thanks for the reply.. Now i really want to order these batteries from them, i am just hoping that they would ship those here in the Philippines. I have already sent my inquiry yesterday, got no reply as yet..


----------



## sportcoupe (Oct 19, 2010)

These Nissan Leaf batteries are 3.8v nominal per cell (7.6v per module), charge to 4.2v per cell (8.4v per module) and bottom balance at 2.75v per cell (5.5v per module). 

Any idea of a state of charge chart for them would look like. Obviously 4.2v is 100% charge and 2.75 is 0% charge. Can someone fill in the missing 10%-90% please?

What would the lowest voltage recommend to run them down to in a project vehicle?


----------



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It is better to only charge them to 4.05 or 4.1V I've heard. It is so that any imbalances won't cause big problems I guess. And that extra .15V won't mean much in terms of range since it is alreay pretty much full at 4.05V.


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

sportcoupe said:


> These Nissan Leaf batteries are 3.8v nominal per cell (7.6v per module), charge to 4.2v per cell (8.4v per module) and bottom balance at 2.75v per cell (5.5v per module).
> 
> Any idea of a state of charge chart for them would look like. Obviously 4.2v is 100% charge and 2.75 is 0% charge. Can someone fill in the missing 10%-90% please?
> 
> What would the lowest voltage recommend to run them down to in a project vehicle?


The discharge curve they supplied me is on this page:

http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...leaf-battery-module-model-2012-new&Itemid=605

Fourth thumbnail from the left.


----------



## sportcoupe (Oct 19, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> It is better to only charge them to 4.05 or 4.1V I've heard. It is so that any imbalances won't cause big problems I guess. And that extra .15V won't mean much in terms of range since it is alreay pretty much full at 4.05V.


EVTV did a segment on power testing Nissan Leaf batteries. Their charge curve suggested that this type of lithium battery isn't really full till 4.3-4.4v and recommended charging to 4.2v per cell to be conservative. 

Here's the video. He starts talking about the Leaf battery at 1:24:08

http://media3.ev-tv.me/news031414-1280.mp4


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

Caps18 said:


> It is better to only charge them to 4.05 or 4.1V I've heard. It is so that any imbalances won't cause big problems I guess. And that extra .15V won't mean much in terms of range since it is alreay pretty much full at 4.05V.


My Elcon charger supplier recommended 4.1 per cell also, when used without a BMS.


----------



## sportcoupe (Oct 19, 2010)

So how far do you guys discharge these leaf batteries too, 3.5v per cell?


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

sportcoupe said:


> So how far do you guys discharge these leaf batteries too, 3.5v per cell?


yes, daily to around 3.5v but I have discharged as low as 2.5v on 3 occasions so far which equates to 20 miles. I typically never use more than 10 or 12 miles a day.


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

How many cells are you using and what drive train?


----------



## sportcoupe (Oct 19, 2010)

14 Nissan Leaf modules for 58v at 120Ah in an EzGo golf cart, D&D sepex motor Alltrax DCX4850 controller.


----------



## Fatt Vette (Oct 31, 2011)

sunworksco said:


> How many cells are you using and what drive train?


Technically, 40 cells - 4 per module, 2 series 2 parallel inside the module.

10 modules, 82v 60Ah, Kelly KDH09600, D&D ES31-C, 1992 Toyota Paseo clutch-less 5 speed manual


----------

