# Orion BMS?



## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

Anyone out there with an Orion BMS? It looks like a good match to for my application, but I'd like to hear the voice of experience (or reason) on the subject.

Thanx!


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

I have the same question. Im itching to buy it, but are they also insulated for non isolated / mains connected chargers?


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## Brute Force (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand the question. According to the manuals, the chassis power (12v) has 2.5kV of isolation from the traction power (cells being monitored). But it also has ground fault detection which my be triggered by a non-isolated charger. May be worth giving them a call to find out.


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Any news, here? 
Any experience with the orion BMS, yet?


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## jaspersk (Jun 26, 2008)

I just installed one. I am still waiting for my charger so it is too early to post a full review but so far I am happy.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Sorry for the lack of updates on my site. 
I have been using the bms now for a few months. It works fabulous. Even though I am not using the hardware disconnect features, CAN-BUS is used. It allows customisation for full integration into the rest of the CAN-BUS electronics. (Inverter , control modules etc) 

~ 200km (unlicensed) test driving, no complaints from the BMS other than a few weak cell detected in my packs. It makes snap shots of 'error' events, so you can see under what conditions the error occurred and at what time from ignition start. Data is logged until it cleared by the pc software.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm working with a customer on installing one into a Mini Cooper right now. It's pretty straightforward. They're pretty responsive with questions and the overall quality is good.


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

what controller do you use together with the bms?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Synkromotive. They don't talk at this point via canbus. We may do throttle limitting but customer wants only a dash light.


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## MadMattMan (Dec 10, 2012)

I am running one and thus far, the only issues I'm experiencing are; 1. there is no TCP/IP network connectivity, strictly CAN. 2. Extremely eaasy to kill by simply inverting a pair of taps, even if they're side by side. More effort should have been in the design, we're talking a 3.3v difference which leads to 3. Wire tap oraganizational criteria and ease of failure indicates cheap design from an electronics persepctive. It requires no less than 4 cells in any group to operate which tells me that they are using each groups power main to blanace the cells that are within that group. Since you are forced to do groups, negative taps should just be integrated and the groups should perhaps be smaller. 5. The saftey faults and relays do not work with solid state switches. You must use a regular relay. 6. It only balances up to 200ma, peak. Useless on 200Ah packs.

Truthfully, in retrospect, it would have been a far better solution to make a bunch of $3 shunts, one for each cell, and just let the cells balance while they're being topped off. It'd cost an extra $1 a month in electricity and saved $1000 and a ton of unnecessary headaches.

This device is fine, the CAN utility is cool, but it is expensive by the time you buy the harnesses and what not. It has its place but it could have been way better.


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## jeffcoat (Apr 16, 2012)

We used an Orion BMS in our last conversion with 48 Thundersky cells (100AH); it has worked beautifully, although installation was a real pain, as is any centralized BMS. For our newest conversion we have elected for the simplicity of the Litiumate Lite, since it is _much_ easier to install and the only thing it lacks is a CAN bus.

That said, the Orion has proven to be trouble-free and fool-proof, provided that you wire it up correctly, double-and triple-check the wiring, and then check the wiring again before plugging it in. Just like with most distributed BMS's, a backwards connection will fry it, except this time you fry the whole system instead of just 1 board. 

Also, we are still working on making the Orion communicate with our Synkromotive controller.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

jeffcoat said:


> provided that you wire it up correctly, double-and triple-check the wiring, and then check the wiring again before plugging it in.


Well said. 


A cell wiring mistake with the Elithion Lithiumate = $ 6 to 16 cell board.
A cell wiring mistake with the Orion BMS = send master back to the factory for repair
However, thankfully, the Ewerts rent you a handheld device that checks the wiring for you, before you plug it into the master. Well worth the rental price.


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## baboonia (Aug 16, 2008)

The OP didn't say too much about their application. I've installed both Elithion and Orion BMS's in dozens of cars. Here's my 2 cents.

If you are doing a Prius PHEV conversion, use Orion. They have Prius specific software which is great for that application.

If you are doing an ICE to EV conversion or homemade EV, you can use either product.

Here are the Pros of Elithion Lite in an EV:
-Quite affordable for the features you get compared to a "dumb" BMS.
-Fully customizable setpoints but comes pre-loaded with defaults that make configuration easier.
-Easy to wire assuming room in the battery box(s) for the cell boards.
-Distributed bank support...i.e. easy to have separate battery packs located apart (some in front of car some in back etc) since you don't have to home run a wire from each cell to the controller.
-Really nice Windows GUI for easy configuration, management, and especially troubleshooting with data logging feature. You can go for a drive, record cell data under load then review when you get home. *You will need to use this *at some point when your car starts "acting funny".
-Easy to update software (controller and GUI).
-Laptop connects to controller via standard USB cable
-"PreFlight" check feature to walk you through step by step to make sure you installed and configured everything correctly.
-Small controller, can mount almost anywhere and easily remoted from cell banks using off the shelf RJ45 cables.
-additional connections (charger relay etc) made to screw terminals (well labeled) on controller, no need to crimp or solder wires or special connectors.


Elithion Lite Cons;
-No CAN support, no support for Torque (cool Android app)
-Limited free tech support, although their web site is quite helpful.
-Requires windows laptop to get specific fault information when there is problem

---

OrionBMS Pros for EV;
-Excellent isolation protection if you wire the pack correctly
-Cell connections can be made in tight spaces since it's only a wire.
-GUI software works on a variety of platforms
-CAN support 
-Torque support for visibility into the pack from an Android device
-Tons of advanced features. Experienced builders with complicated systems will appreciate this.
-Excellent tech support from the manufacturer.


OrionBMS cons for EV;
-Tricky "home run" wiring scheme, you have to put the controller near the battery pack. Hard to do with distributed packs. Easy to make a mistake...you should rent their wiring verification tool before hooking up controller.
-Orion can cost more than Elithion Lite (does depends on number of cells)
-Way more features than most people need...a little harder to configure and can be confusing for newbies.
-Controller is bulky and requires airflow because of heat sink. Cannot place controller against corner wall because connectors on two sides.
-Requires CANdaptor laptop interface/drivers for configuration changes and data logging.

-Paul


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## OrionBMS (Dec 18, 2012)

I just wanted to clarify a few points about the Orion BMS in case they are helpful for other readers:


1.) A wiring error does not fry the whole system. The BMS has internal fuses on the cell taps specifically designed to prevent damage to the expensive parts of the electronics in the event of a cell voltage tap wiring error. For minor wiring errors, the resulting “damage” from reversing two tap wires is generally a blown fuse or two, which is a very low cost repair. Fuse replacement is usually something we do for free for our customers and the only charge is to cover return shipping. We recognize that having to return the unit for fuse replacement due to a seemingly insignificant temporary wiring error creates an inconvenience for our users, which is why we have been working hard behind the scenes over the last year on testing our new revision E hardware. Revision E just started shipping and can survive minor wiring errors such as 2 cell taps being backwards without damage to the unit (prolonged exposure to wiring errors or high voltage wiring errors can still result in blown internal fuses.) In any case, I would like to clarify that even in the event the unit is substantially damaged, repair costs are not even remotely close to what is suggested earlier in this form.


2.) The Orion BMS digital outputs (charger enable, charge enable and discharge enable) *can* be used to drive solid state relays. We do recommend the use of a pull-up resistor when used with certain solid state relays to ensure proper operation. The outputs can also drive opto-isolators, regular relays or other electronics.



3.) The Orion BMS is being successfully used with large battery banks including 1000Ah packs. A large portion of our customers use 180Ah or larger cells and the balancing current is sufficient for maintaining the balance on those cells. The Orion BMS is designed to maintain the balance of of a battery pack from cycle-to-cycle, but is not designed to do the one time initial bulk balancing of the battery pack (which is a similar approach taken by other products mentioned in this thread.) Li-ion cells tend to stay in balance with each other once they are initially balanced unlike lead-acid batteries. The BMS only has to correct the difference in self discharge from cell to cell which is typically measured in tens to hundreds of micro-amps, even for larger packs. There is a more detailed write-up about this is available in the Orion BMS operating manual for those interested.



4.) We are always open to customer feedback. Our goal is to manufacture and sell a product which is robust, does what our customers need it to do and is as simple to use and understand as possible. We recognize that we can't do that if we don't listen to our customers. We have heard the requests for an interface that is easier to use and understand that still offers the advanced features. We are working hard to address those concerns and would like your feedback. New versions of software and manuals will be released over the next few months which we hope will help make using the Orion BMS easier and more user-friendly. We value your feedback and would encourage you to contact us if you have a question, feedback or concern about any of our products.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Orion, nice to see you here. My Orion is in Illinois right now for repair, but I think this is a pretty nice piece of equipment. How hard is it to get my hands on the wiring verification tool? It took a lot of time to verify my taps, and this would be a big help for me in my next build, which is coming soon.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Some feedback from a first time builder: It would be nice to have all the books come in the shipping container. I had a lot of help from one of the pros here while doing my install, and a good bit of the precious information he gave me was links to the the books. A 5x7 card attached to the unit with a string or rubber band with a brief outline of the install would be a nice thing to find when you unpack your new orion as well. If the first thing you do after hooking up the wiring is to hook it up to a laptop, it would be really helpful to have a 9 pin connecter attached to the appropriate can wires. I was fortunate to have frodus coaching me through this install, but with the above suggestions, this advanced piece of equipment could be more friendly to the first timer.


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