# New AC motor available



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I posted this in the vendor section but thought I'd put it here as well so no one misses it. Looks like an economical way to get into an AC system for smaller vehicles and lower voltage.
8 inch AC system from $3900-$4300.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC_d...erformance.htm
http://www.nabble.com/ac-geo-td20693118.html
Hopefully more details will be provided, like maybe a picture?


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## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Not real impressed with there efficiency chart it doesn't look much better than a DC motor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since it can do regen over all vehicle efficiency will end up being higher.
I don't know the efficiency numbers for an 8 inch DC motor and controller at similar voltage  Any links?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=86816

interesting....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=86816
> 
> interesting....


Indeed, which is why I linked to the same discussion three posts above yours  Is this thing on


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

yah well good thing its doing that the two people with the links cant find any information about the motor...

I did find this really old solectrica pdf file online that had "ac 30" motor on it and it had similar power ratings, however its still no real data...

Imagine 4 of these motors one for each wheel...

200hp 400ftlbs that could be pretty quick....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is the only pic they sent me so far, you can barely see the motor at the bottom:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Got a response from Brian at Thunderstruck. He says the motor bolt circle and shaft size are the same as an ADC 9" and he hopes to get more pictures and information up soon. They are busy working on a BMS for lifepo4 cells which is taking up their time.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I've heard of Brian Hall through one of my contacts. He is one of the pioneers of the EV movement that is still breaking new ground.

Are you saying the price includes controller?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's how they list it:
AC-31 1238 72-108 volts 550 amp, 8" motor , 53hp, 115ftlbs, 6000 rpm, $4300 The 1238 is the controller.
For an 8 inch AC setup that seems reasonable. The larger Solectria AC24 and controller comes out to around $6k I think.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hmm, that does sound reasonable. The peak power could be higher, but considering the price it's not bad.

Don't get me started on the Azure/solectria systems, they're junk. Not saying they're unreliable but they are overpriced, underpowered and way too heavy.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

david85 said:


> Hmm, that does sound reasonable. The peak power could be higher, but considering the price it's not bad.
> 
> Don't get me started on the Azure/solectria systems, they're junk. Not saying they're unreliable but they are overpriced, underpowered and way too heavy.



Yeah, but Soelctria systems do have a massive flaw in their REGEN system. If you have a fully charged pack, zoom away and then hit the brakes with the regen activated, the controller will blow. Apparently there is a switch to turn the REGEN on, and it's not a smart system. If your pack is charged, or close to it, the controller does not stop the REGEN, it just blows up. I would never spend the $6k for a system that it's only advantage over a $1k DC system doesn't work properly.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

TheSGC said:


> Yeah, but Soelctria systems do have a massive flaw in their REGEN system. If you have a fully charged pack, zoom away and then hit the brakes with the regen activated, the controller will blow. Apparently there is a switch to turn the REGEN on, and it's not a smart system. If your pack is charged, or close to it, the controller does not stop the REGEN, it just blows up. I would never spend the $6k for a system that it's only advantage over a $1k DC system doesn't work properly.


Yikes, didn't know about that...but I agree the only real advantage on paper is the regen. Well that, and a slightly wider torque range.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I didnt know about the flaw in the regen system...thanks...

speaking of regen...the evdaytona website features section mentions that the motor this bike is using can push back 150A into the pack...is that something that lifepo4's can handle? I am sure thats something optima yellowtops can or odessy AGMs...

http://www.evdaytona.com/buildpics.html

http://www.evalbum.com/1017

The bikes use the 84V version...The ev album says the motor type is AC-2900, whatever that means...point worth mentioning is that this motor can make a bike seriously haul a$$...and one motor apparently moves a metro around pretty nicely too...as previously mentioned...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> speaking of regen...the evdaytona website features section mentions that the motor this bike is using can push back 150A into the pack...is that something that lifepo4's can handle? I am sure thats something optima yellowtops can or odessy AGMs...


 The A123 systems batteries he's using certainly can handle it.
http://www.evdaytona.com/buildpics.html


> The bikes use the 84V version...The ev album says the motor type is AC-2900, whatever that means...point worth mentioning is that this motor can make a bike seriously haul a$$...and one motor apparently moves a metro around pretty nicely too...as previously mentioned...


I notice he says the motor is a GoWheel.com AC-2900, but GoWheel.com doesn't seem to sell or make motors. From the pictures it looks like the 6 inch version. Do we know for sure that's the same motor that Thunderstruck is selling?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It does look the same as the one electric motorsport is selling, which seems to be the same as Thunderstruck.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

correct, seems to be the same one...

i wish we could get some power graphs for the AC-30/31 motor...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The motor is from Hi Performance Golf Cars, talked to one of the employees last week. 
http://www.hiperformancegolfcars.com/

The curtis is what is limiting their motors... doesn't go above 96V and 500A.... 

[edit... found the curves] 

Curve for the AC-12 motor:









Curves for the AC-30 motor:








and


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well the motor pictured on the hiperformance golfcars site is different than the motor pictured on the electricmotorsports site. Also, Thunderstruck claims up to 108 volts. 
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/images/EV_Parts/motors/motor_acinductance.jpg
http://hiperformancegolfcars.com/images/stories/motors/motor2.gif

So I don't know what to think.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

one of the links that both I and JRP3 posted has the geo metro with the AC-30/31 and the owner talks about seeing "50-60 amps" surge back in via regen...

...So i know that it means that my batteries capacity went up but by how much? Can we calculate that?

All i hear is that regen improves your range by 10% but thats so vague...I drive a lot on the freeway with few traffic slow downs, would regen improve my range by 10% too when compared to someone who is all stop-n-go?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably not.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Well the motor pictured on the hiperformance golfcars site is different than the motor pictured on the electricmotorsports site. Also, Thunderstruck claims up to 108 volts.
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/images/EV_Parts/motors/motor_acinductance.jpg
> http://hiperformancegolfcars.com/images/stories/motors/motor2.gif
> 
> So I don't know what to think.


Thats only ONE motor pictured. They make more than one... I talked to one of the employees, and the AC 12 and AC 30 are the ones that thunderstruck and Electricmotorsport sell.... and its a hiperformancegolfcar motor. I've been researching for about a year for various AC motor manufacturers. I got those datasheets straight from HPGC. The motors are only sold as a combo with the Curtis controller as a package.

The technician @ Thunderstruck (whom I chat with regularly) said 108 is absolute max voltage that the controller can handle, TS uses it in tron at 108V, but above that is risky. Its not made for it. Tron uses it at 108V but thats for a drag race.... for 10 seconds. We want to know what the reliability is for a vehicle being used constantly.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

frodus said:


> We want to know what the reliability is for a vehicle being used constantly.


exactly what we want/need to know, to see if this is a viable setup...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do they sell the motor themselves or only to dealers? Do any other dealers sell them besides Thunderstruck and Electricmotorsports? I looked at a bunch of dealer websites listed on hiperformancegolfcars but none of them show those motors.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Do they sell the motor themselves or only to dealers? Do any other dealers sell them besides Thunderstruck and Electricmotorsports? I looked at a bunch of dealer websites listed on hiperformancegolfcars but none of them show those motors.


I don't know of anyone else that sells in the EV community, but they sell well in the golf car community. They have an agreement with curtis, and golf cars and forklifts are their bread and butter.

I don't know if they sell direct to the public, I think they want people to go through a distributor, but its worth a call. Maybe a group buy? 10 sets?

We're considering their AC motor for our TTXGP entry....100ftlbs is a lot of torque, and 8krpm is nice


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

...........


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## john86 (Jan 8, 2009)

Have to say, it is really good And it also looks like a good deal to me, I hope you get worthily paid for it......
Cheers!!!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2009)

Might just be a ticket for those wanting to convert an older style VW. Regen and 8k RPM. Sweet. Someday I'd love to go AC. 

Pete : )






frodus said:


> I don't know of anyone else that sells in the EV community, but they sell well in the golf car community. They have an agreement with curtis, and golf cars and forklifts are their bread and butter.
> 
> I don't know if they sell direct to the public, I think they want people to go through a distributor, but its worth a call. Maybe a group buy? 10 sets?
> 
> We're considering their AC motor for our TTXGP entry....100ftlbs is a lot of torque, and 8krpm is nice


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Can you connect these motors siamese style? Is that possible with AC motors like this?

If a motor doesnt have dual shafts, can it be retrofitted to have dual shafts?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Can you connect these motors siamese style? Is that possible with AC motors like this?
> 
> If a motor doesnt have dual shafts, can it be retrofitted to have dual shafts?


two motors, two controllers with AC... unless you mechanically couple them so they have ABSOLUTELY NO SLIP.... but its not recomended... there are many pitfalls... but if one motor's impedance is more, the other motor gets more current... which could cause it to overheat and fail... also, if the motors aren't aligned the exact same, the motors will be partially out of phase from eachother and not work the most efficiently/not work at all/fail.

I think you could call and ask hiperformancegolfcars and talk to their guys and see if you could get them to do a dual shaft motor for you.... They use single ended or open can motors for most of their stuff. I wouldn't do it yourself.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

frodus said:


> two motors, two controllers with AC... unless you mechanically couple them so they have ABSOLUTELY NO SLIP.... but its not recomended... there are many pitfalls... but if one motor's impedance is more, the other motor gets more current... which could cause it to overheat and fail... also, if the motors aren't aligned the exact same, the motors will be partially out of phase from eachother and not work the most efficiently/not work at all/fail.
> 
> I think you could call and ask hiperformancegolfcars and talk to their guys and see if you could get them to do a dual shaft motor for you.... They use single ended or open can motors for most of their stuff. I wouldn't do it yourself.


do the same risks exist in dc siamese motor setups? If so then they have been avoided in the past...right?

I guess I will have to call...

You know what I was thinking...what about a "Netgain EMIS"-like system, only you use this (dual shaft) AC motor instead....

50hp max and 100ftlbs is alot to "assist" your existing driveshaft, also, you could regen your power back into your pack and use less of your mechanical brakes...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> do the same risks exist in dc siamese motor setups? If so then they have been avoided in the past...right?
> 
> I guess I will have to call...
> 
> ...


With DC, you can put motors in series... and they'll pass the same current through the windings. If you parallel, the same risk can occur. DC motors don't have to be "in phase" with eachother, so if there is slip, it doesn't matter, its not dependant on frequency.

Some controllers (like Zilla and Ours, Synkromotive) can do series parallel switching on series wound motors.... run them in series to start (full amps, 1/2 voltage), then switch to parallel (1/2 the amps but full voltage).

I don't think those 50Hp numbers are realistic.... the AC-12 peaks at ~30hp and 82ftlbs of torque.... their AC-30 motor (8") peaks about 36hp and 100ftlbs of torque... both motors run with a 550A curtis controller at 84V. I've got the curves in front of me.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Makes sense now, yes, different electrical operation in the AC vs DC, shoot...

Still, wouldnt 36hp and 100ftlbs be helpful in an EMIS situation?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Makes sense now, yes, different electrical operation in the AC vs DC, shoot...
> 
> Still, wouldnt 36hp and 100ftlbs be helpful in an EMIS situation?


Absolutely... if it was dual shaft, and had u-joints... you could put 6-8 batteries in the back of an SUV and have a hybrid.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

thank you, then I am off to email about a dual shaft option!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> I don't think those 50Hp numbers are realistic.... the AC-12 peaks at ~30hp and 82ftlbs of torque.... their AC-30 motor (8") peaks about 36hp and 100ftlbs of torque... both motors run with a 550A curtis controller at 84V. I've got the curves in front of me.


What about the AC-31 that they list running at up to 108 volts, do you think that's accurate?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> What about the AC-31 that they list running at up to 108 volts, do you think that's accurate?


Well, Thunderstruck quotes the AC-30 as 46hp peak.... From the curves direct from the motor manufacturer (who has a dyno) it says 36Hp.... at the same voltage 84V and 550A....I don't know where the discrepancy is.... but I'd trust the excel data from the manufacturer (which I went off). I don't have the AC-31 motor specs, but I seriously doubt 53Hp is a realistic number... but 115ftlbs might be realistic.

Another thing, 108V is absolute max for that controller before you start to fry stuff.... if you take the pack fresh off the charger, and coast down a hill and do regen it COULD blow the controller.... as the voltage would spike above the threshold of the parts on the controller.... so use caution if you are wanting to use 108V.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That brings up another question. Does the controller automatically control regen with a fully charged pack? Say if you take off with a freshly charged pack at the top of a long hill, can you manually disable regen or would it cut it back on it's own? Do you think a 96 volt pack would leave enough room in the controller to avoid regen blowout?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd ask curtis.... they don't recomend more than 96V though


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So i looked into the problems people were having with the netgain EMIS system... 

www.Hrivnak.com (check the problems section)

http://www.evalbum.com/1939 (this is the avalanche from the website)


so even though i got an email response from thunderstruck saying that yes we can order the AC-30/31 with a dual shaft..I am thinking the whole setup is not a good choice... also, as previously discussed, the ac motors have more danger when coupled together siamese style, so that really puts the dual shaft as useless at this point...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you can do dual motors, but you need 2 controllers to eliminate the problems with siamese AC motors.
Its not a bad choice, but realise that you're working with lower RPM's.... RPM of motor = rpm of drive shaft.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a guy using dual AC forklift motors and dual Curtis controllers:
http://www.evalbum.com/1396








I love the way that looks. I'd like to do something like that sticking through the hood of a muscle car like a blower setup


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Those motors are nearly the same as the thunderstruck ones but cheaper!!!

84V 550 amp....45hp....110 ftlbs....he claims they were only 1K$ each and 1K$ per controller....so thats a package of 2K$ compared the thunderstruck which is about 4K$ for the same package....

hmmm......

i like the top speed but the acceleration in 11 sec?? hmmm...maybe the gearing wasnt right?

thoughts?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

just remember, thats 90hp, its not going to fly like a bat outta hell.... but it'l do.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Those motors are nearly the same as the thunderstruck ones but cheaper!!!
> 
> 84V 550 amp....45hp....110 ftlbs....he claims they were only 1K$ each and 1K$ per controller....so thats a package of 2K$ compared the thunderstruck which is about 4K$ for the same package....


Yeah. Now try and find some to purchase, at any price. I think he got these used from forklifts. A couple of Warp9's stacked up like that hooked up to a Zilla 2k would be a really fun setup.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> I don't have the AC-31 motor specs, but I seriously doubt 53Hp is a realistic number... but 115ftlbs might be realistic.
> 
> Another thing, 108V is absolute max for that controller before you start to fry stuff.... if you take the pack fresh off the charger, and coast down a hill and do regen it COULD blow the controller.... as the voltage would spike above the threshold of the parts on the controller.... so use caution if you are wanting to use 108V.


I just noticed that Brian Hall of Thunderstruck says 130 is the max of the Curtis*


> the new curtis ac controller has a high voltage cut off at 130 volt


http://www.nabble.com/ac-geo-td20693118.html#a20693118

*New data from Curtis is 122 cutoff according to Brian. That puts 32 lithium cells charged to 3.8 volts right on the edge at 121.6 and charged to 3.6 at 115.2

*Latest data from HPG puts the cutoff back at 130.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I just noticed that Brian Hall of Thunderstruck says 130 is the max of the Curtis:
> 
> http://www.nabble.com/ac-geo-td20693118.html#a20693118


108V nominal....

a fully charged 108V pack of lifepo or lead is closer to 124V... so its on the edge. I'm sure you could nudge it up there with Lifepo, but add another lead battery and you're almost 140V.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I read that the Thunderstruck Tron bike uses two Curtis controllers. I assume that is the same AC setup we are talking about so I guess they've figured out a way to use both controllers on one motor to double the amperage since they run the bike at 96 volts.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Are you sure the tron bike does not use two of the AC motors?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I read that the Thunderstruck Tron bike uses two Curtis controllers. I assume that is the same AC setup we are talking about so I guess they've figured out a way to use both controllers on one motor to double the amperage since they run the bike at 96 volts.


I seriously seriously doubt they use 2 controllers 1 motor. Each controller would have to have its PWM/PFM EXACTLY synkronized between the two. If they use 2 controllers, there are most definately 2 motors.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That certainly makes more sense but for some reason the article I saw only made mention of the 2 Curtii. I guess I'll just email them and see if I can find out for sure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yup, 2 motors, 2 controllers in Tron, but the 6 inch motors not the 8 inch.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Finally a good pic of the motor, I think this is the 8 inch but I'm not positive:


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The guy who owns that ev is one of the engineers that designed the curtis ac controller. I believe they bought a bunch of those motors new for building a dyno or something. He also had them rewound. 



JRP3 said:


> Yeah. Now try and find some to purchase, at any price. I think he got these used from forklifts. A couple of Warp9's stacked up like that hooked up to a Zilla 2k would be a really fun setup.


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> Yeah, but Soelctria systems do have a massive flaw in their REGEN system. If you have a fully charged pack, zoom away and then hit the brakes with the regen activated, the controller will blow. Apparently there is a switch to turn the REGEN on, and it's not a smart system. If your pack is charged, or close to it, the controller does not stop the REGEN, it just blows up. I would never spend the $6k for a system that it's only advantage over a $1k DC system doesn't work properly.


Umm - nonsense. Where did you hear that? If at all true, it must have been some time in the past. I have two Azure (formerly Solectria) systems and know quite a few more people who also have them, and this does not happen. Also, it *is* a "smart" system - there is a regen curve at the top end of the voltage that lets you taper down how many amps go into the pack.

The "regen" switch is strictly to adjust for driving conditions (you do not want your rear wheels to lock up before your fronts).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to know. I certainly hadn't heard of any Solectria/Azure regen problems before this and it seemed like a major flaw that should be easily avoidable.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

racunniff said:


> Umm - nonsense. Where did you hear that? If at all true, it must have been some time in the past. I have two Azure (formerly Solectria) systems and know quite a few more people who also have them, and this does not happen. Also, it *is* a "smart" system - there is a regen curve at the top end of the voltage that lets you taper down how many amps go into the pack.
> 
> The "regen" switch is strictly to adjust for driving conditions (you do not want your rear wheels to lock up before your fronts).


I'll have to find out what year these Solectria Geos are. My college has 8 Solectria Geos, and every 4 or 5 months a controller busts when REGEN switch is left active and the driver zips away, and then has to stop at the lights 500 feet down the road. I also had this confirmed by a Solectria engineer who built the Geos, and is the only one authorized to service them, who now works on my college. He was the one that actualy told me about the REGEN flaw. Maybe Azure fixed them, but the Solectria Geos we have all have this stupid REGEN problem.


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> I'll have to find out what year these Solectria Geos are. My college has 8 Solectria Geos, and every 4 or 5 months a controller busts when REGEN switch is left active and the driver zips away, and then has to stop at the lights 500 feet down the road. I also had this confirmed by a Solectria engineer who built the Geos, and is the only one authorized to service them, who now works on my college. He was the one that actualy told me about the REGEN flaw. Maybe Azure fixed them, but the Solectria Geos we have all have this stupid REGEN problem.


Thanks. It would be interesting to find out more details. If they really were "Solectria" rather than "Azure" then they are probably at least 3-4 years old.

It would also be interesting to find out if they had tried adjusting the regen curves in the controller.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

racunniff said:


> Thanks. It would be interesting to find out more details. If they really were "Solectria" rather than "Azure" then they are probably at least 3-4 years old.
> 
> It would also be interesting to find out if they had tried adjusting the regen curves in the controller.


They are Solectria, and they are old. I couldn't get a hold of the professor in charge, but going through data sheets, grants and purchases over the years I am guessing these are 1996-1998 model year Solectria Geo Metros, 2 door and 4 door versions. Last I talked to them they were in the process of using Lithium, but I don't know if they ever got anywhere.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So this new AC motor available...

the larger version is about 4000$ and is 50hp and 100ftlbs torque...

What is the power ratings for the AC-24 system?

Is the new one comparable to the AC-24?


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## racunniff (Jan 14, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> So this new AC motor available...
> 
> the larger version is about 4000$ and is 50hp and 100ftlbs torque...
> 
> ...


AC-24 is 55 foot-pounds peak at 156V, roughly 50hp peak.

AC-55 is 200 foot-pounds peak at 312V, roughly 80hp peak.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Solecria/Azure AC24 is a little more powerful, a little less efficient, and quite a bit more expensive at about $6100, not including the wiring interface.
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
The Solectria has a lot less torque but twice the RPM's.
Talked to someone at HPG and they are working on a newer even more powerful version of their motor which should be out in a few months. Still running around 96-108 volts, the limit of the Curtis controller.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

What is the price of the AC-24 motor and controller?

The more powerful 8" AC motor sold by electromotorsport is 4000$ for both motor and controller...

I think the 8" motor and controller are both lighter than the AC-24 motor and controller as well...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> What is the price of the AC-24 motor and controller?
> 
> The more powerful 8" AC motor sold by electromotorsport is 4000$ for both motor and controller...
> 
> I think the 8" motor and controller are both lighter than the AC-24 motor and controller as well...


Ummm, the post right above yours....


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

no need to be confused...must have gotten distracted mid-comment..didnt see your post..


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The Solecria/Azure AC24 is a little more powerful, a little less efficient, and quite a bit more expensive at about $6100, not including the wiring interface.
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
> The Solectria has a lot less torque but twice the RPM's.
> Talked to someone at HPG and they are working on a newer even more powerful version of their motor which should be out in a few months. Still running around 96-108 volts, the limit of the Curtis controller.


According to the pdf attached in a post above its only more powerful if run at 336V, when run at a more comparable 156V, (which is closer to apples to apples to the HPGC motor) its only 37kw or 50hp...so the same power ...unless there is a more updated data sheet you can show us...

so a more powerful motor from HPGC? really.... interesting...so if the voltage is the same and max amps is the same (due to controller) then, because its bigger, it will have the same max power available, but sooner than the smaller motors?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm honestly not sure how much to read into the hp numbers for any of these motors. I've contacted HPG and they say it's estimated power, so who really knows? Looks as if Azure has made some changes to the Solectria design since the Azure data is better, at least when compared to the Electro Auto data.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The thing to remmeber about the azure systems is they are mostly used in commercial applications where speed and power are not the biggest concern. Reliability matters more and I suspect thats why these motors are not exactly capable of earth shattering performance. Lack of liquid cooling also increaced the relative weight of the motors, but makes for a more durable system with fewer things to go wrong in HD applications.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

From the nabble entry linked in the fist post above:

"Sorry for the delay in answering, , but this is correct, both the 
ac-30 and ac-31 use the same motor , just a different controller,We 
can cap the rpm where we want to up to 8000 rpm, but there is not much 
power after 6000 rpm, so I think this will be the standard 
setting.(6000 rpm), we can get 8000 rpm from 36 volts, ac systems do 
not have the same volt to rpm as a dc motor might have. I found this 
out the hard way when I ran a 48 volt ac motorcycle down to 12 volts 
but was still going 40 mph. 
it is the price for motor , controller , wire harness and 840 spy 
glass. the spy glass ( instrumentation) gives out amps, soc, voltage, 
rpm , motor temp and mph( single speed set-up).motor mount and shaft 
size is the same as a adc 8" motor. 
a few weeks later and I"m still loving the geo, it will do 80mph. 
hope that helps, Brian "

Getting 80mph from an 84v AC system with an 8" motor in a Geo Metro sounds pretty impressive. Would an 84v DC system be able to do that ?

Is this a fundamental difference between AC and DC systems ? I thought AC systems were usually built around higher voltages -- like the Siemens and AC-Propulsion systems that need over 300v.

Also, I remember seeing a post somewhere about some similar system but AC forklift motors and controllers that only cost about $2K for the package and some guy was going to go dual-motor with them. Does any body remember that post and have it bookmarked ? Searching, I am drawing a blank.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

On page 5 of this thread I posted a pic and link to a guy on the evalbum using 2 AC lift motors, if that's what you're talking about. However, AC forklift motors seem to be rare.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

AC systems hold their torque longer, a flatter torque curve, while series DC have higher starting torque but it drops off faster. Most AC systems are higher voltage, this is the lowest I've seen. The controller can handle 108 nominal as long as max voltage stays below 130, where it cuts off and shuts down.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Thanks ! I was looking for the source of the motors and thought it was IN a thread, but it was actually in the EV Album description:

"MotorABM 4 DGF132Md-4 3-Phase AC
Semi-custom low voltage AC motor from ABM Greiffenberger used in the forklift industry. Bought from ABM Drives Inc. in Ohio, ABM P/N 191.635.000. With an 84V battery and 550A controller, each motor will put out about 45Hp. Peak torque is about 110 ft-lbs each. Max rpm is about 6000rpm.DrivetrainMid engine, Dual AC electric motors belted together and connected to a clutch and the original 5 speed transmission.ControllerCurtis 1238-6501
48-84V 550A 3 phase AC induction motor controller. One is used for each motor.




And they do look quite a bit different from the HPG motors. It looks like they have finned heatsink housings on them. His EV Album entry doesn't say whether the ABM drives are 8" or some other size, or what they weigh to compare to the HPG.

I've sent Roger White an e-mail asking for additional motor info.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Post what you find out, if anything. I searched around for some info on those motors before but never found much. I think they are about the same size as the HPG motors.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I think so too..they seem to be pretty much the same size and if you look at the ev album description they seem to be the same power rating as the 8" HPG motors too...

Please post what you find though...would be nice to have another vendor out there for these low-voltage AC systems...


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## neal (Sep 4, 2008)

I contacted ABM drives the same company that Roger White used for his AC motors some time ago. I was quoted 2700.00 each + ship. They wanted aprox 2 months to "build" the motor. Quick specs: 18KW @ 4200RPM 48V. They said and I quote "you can run 96V on the motor safely."


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do they also provide controllers, or do they use the same Curtis? Considering the usual costs of AC controllers I'd think $2700 for the motor alone, then adding the cost of the controller would probably put it in the same range as the HPG systems.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

you read my mind...

so basically its the same thing...

haha...great...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, these are obviously not the same as the HPG motors sold by Thunderstruck, etc.

Roger White replied to my e-mail this morning as below:

[Kirk,

Thank you for checking out my project.

1. External diameter is approximately 10 inches.
2. 165 lbs
3. Motor mounting is different. The end is a standard NEMA C face, but it does have the same shaft diameter as the ADC 9".
4. Same 1.125" diameter shaft with a keyway as the ADC motors.
5. The torque and powers I listed are from dyno measurements with the controllers I am using. They could easily be run at higher voltage or even higher current to get higher power. The 11 sec 0-60mph was measured. Just because it has 220 ft-lbs at 0 rpm does not say anything about the power it can do. This is a 3700 lb car with only 90 HP.
6. The motors were bought from ABM at standard prices, though they have gone up some due to increasing material costs. The controllers were directly from Curtis in a special situation and prices vary depending on what distributor you buy from. 

Best of luck!

Best regards,
Roger White 
-----Original Message-----
*From:* Kirk Ellis [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2009 9:51 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Question about AC motors on you Fiero

​ Hello,

I came across your EV Album entry using the dual AC forklift motors and was wondering if you would be kind enough to answer a few questions ?

1) What is the nominal diameter of these motors you got from ABM ? 8" ? 9" ? 6.7" ?

2) What did each motor weigh ?

3) Is the mounting on the motor the same as an ADC 8" or not (or didn't you care because you had to fab your own anyway) ?

4) Were the shafts splined or keyed ?

5) Are the HP and torque numbers just what ABM spec'd the motors at or were they actually dyno'd at some point ? It seems like the combine 220 ft/lbs torque going into the Fiero transmission should provide better acceleration than 11sec 0-60. 

6) Was this motor/controller combination and price something ABM would do for anyone, or was it a special situation, surplus, used, etc. ?

Thanks,
Kirk ​


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The limiting factor for these and the HPG motors seems to be the controller. The Curtis is really amazing, every variable you could imagine and then some are adjustable to tune it for a particular motor, but the voltage limit prevents getting full power from a motor. These controllers used to top out around 84 volts and now go to 108V so maybe they'll keep increasing the voltage over time.


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## xsherlock (Mar 1, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> These controllers used to top out around 84 volts and now go to 108V so maybe they'll keep increasing the voltage over time.


Spoke with Curtis on that and in fact the new 1238-7501 84-96VDC 550A controller has nominal operating range of 80-108V and cutoff at 130V.

But they sadly admited they do not plan building any larger controlers at this time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How long ago did you get the 130 volt cutoff rating from them? Both Brian Hall from Thunderstruck and the people at HPG say Curtis has de-rated that to 122 volt cutoff.

Edit: The 122 volt cutoff is not accurate, it is 130.


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## xsherlock (Mar 1, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> How long ago did you get the 130 volt cutoff rating from them? Both Brian Hall from Thunderstruck and the people at HPG say Curtis has de-rated that to 122 volt cutoff.


Got it from the manual I got from Curtis support dated august 08, and generaly their spec sheets, web site and manuals are out of date, So this would mean it is 122V now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's some more information on the ABM motors and Curtis controllers:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=637&PN=1


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ok, just ordered my AC31 direct from HPG. They told me the Curtis *does* cut off at 130, not 122, and they are using it with lithium at 108 nominal, so that gives me some head room for charging 34 cells to 3.8 volts. Once I get the motor I'll be starting a build thread and I'll put a link to it here.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Ok, just ordered my AC31 direct from HPG. They told me the Curtis *does* cut off at 130, not 122, and they are using it with lithium at 108 nominal, so that gives me some head room for charging 34 cells to 3.8 volts. Once I get the motor I'll be starting a build thread and I'll put a link to it here.


Very cool..

Tell us more, what will you be converting? Which lithiums will you be buying?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It'll be going in a 1988 Fiero, I'll be using 100Ah cells, not exactly sure which ones, most likely either Thunder Sky or Sky Energy, depending on how much risk I want to take. I may go with the TS from Elite even though they cost more so I get a warranty in the US and don't have to deal with shipping and customs from China.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here are some pics I took of Rogers Fiero. 











































dreamer said:


> Thanks ! I was looking for the source of the motors and thought it was IN a thread, but it was actually in the EV Album description:
> 
> "MotorABM 4 DGF132Md-4 3-Phase AC
> Semi-custom low voltage AC motor from ABM Greiffenberger used in the forklift industry. Bought from ABM Drives Inc. in Ohio, ABM P/N 191.635.000. With an 84V battery and 550A controller, each motor will put out about 45Hp. Peak torque is about 110 ft-lbs each. Max rpm is about 6000rpm.DrivetrainMid engine, Dual AC electric motors belted together and connected to a clutch and the original 5 speed transmission.ControllerCurtis 1238-6501
> ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It'll be going in a 1988 Fiero, I'll be using 100Ah cells, not exactly sure which ones, most likely either Thunder Sky or Sky Energy, depending on how much risk I want to take. I may go with the TS from Elite even though they cost more so I get a warranty in the US and don't have to deal with shipping and customs from China.


What are the prices you are finding for those 100AH cellpacks?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Still investigating, probably end up somewhere around .40 cents/whr including shipping.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I received torque-speed data from HPG for the AC30 at 84V. Their calculations show the max power at 35 HP at 1900 rpm. Knee of the torque-speed curve is at about 1800 rpm. I was told that the AC31 is the same motor with a higher voltage Curtis controller (7501) permitting 108V nominal. Making the hopeful assumption that torque would increase linearly with voltage I multiplied the 84V torque values by 1.28 (28% higher V) and made a graph of available and required torque for a 2001 Suzuki Swift (2330 lb finished EV wt) using 34 260 Ah TS cells. Too large a file (30kB) to attach unfortunately. The available acceleration, calculated from the difference in available and required torque is 2.8, 1.8, and 0.9 mph/sec at 40, 50 and 60 mph. The numbers for the Advanced DC Motors 203-06-4001 8" DC motor are 9.6, 5.3, and 3.0 mph/sec at 40, 50 and 60 mph. Estimated top speed (available torque = required torque) is about 75 mph with the AC31 (takes a while to get there though from the numbers above) and 85 mph with the 8" DC motor. Up a 4% grade freeway on-ramp the numbers drop to 1.9, 1.0, and 0.1 for the AC31 and 8.7, 4.4, and 2.1 for the 8" DC.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those numbers don't seem to be inline with real world results. Brian Hall replaced his 8"ADC with the AC31 at the same voltage and reported better performance, not worse.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Hmmm. Well, lets take my guess of how torque varies with voltage out of it and look at the manufacturers' numbers for 84V. The torque numbers for the Advanced DC 8" motor are taken from a torque speed graph from them, the numbers for the AC30 are taken from an excel spreadsheet HPG sent me. For rpm 2285, 2400, 2710, 3290, 4275, the DC motor graph gives 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 ft-lb torque, and the HPG spreadsheet gives (rounded off) 23, 38, 55, 67, 72 ft-lb. So according to their numbers at 84V they should have about the same torque at higher rpm, and the DC motor should have more torque and shaft power below around 2500 rpm. So if you drive in lower gears and keep the motor rpm higher, they should behave about the same, whereas if in higher gears the DC motor should give more torque and power. Both are estimates I believe, not from testing with a dynamo, so one or both might be incorrect.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The graph I have for the AC30 shows 100ft/lbs to about 1800RPM.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

That is the same data I have. Torque constant out to about 1800 is what I meant when I said in the first post that the knee of the curve being at about 1800. Max power calculated from that torque,t, speed curve is 35 HP at 1900 rpm. Power (W) = t*rpm*2*pi/(0.7376*60). Extrapolating from the graph for the 8" DC motor indicates it has about 166 ft-lb torque at 1800 rpm. It requires a bit less than 600 A to get this torque, so possibly Brian's performance was limited by the current capacity of his controller. The AC30 has about 34 HP shaft power at 1800 rpm so assuming motor&controller efficiency of about 0.82 and input voltage of maybe 70V with 84V pack (14V voltage droop due to connections, battery internal R), it should require a current of about 440 A to get the 99.5 ft-lb torque at that rpm.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That graph is for the AC30 which tops out at 80 volts, Brian used the AC31 setup, which is the same motor but higher output controller going to 108 volts nominal. So we aren't actually looking at the graph for the AC31.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Yes it is for the AC30. My understanding is that the only difference in an AC30 and AC31 is in the controller, the motor is the same. The AC31 uses the newer 7501 controller with 108V nominal, the AC30 uses the 6501 controller with 80V nominal. Brian used 25 3.2V TS cells so 80V. If the above is correct, that would be the graph for the AC30 should describe his performance. He can supply the details of his setup better than me.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't suppose theres any chance this motor could be set up for 144V nominal?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Yes it is for the AC30. My understanding is that the only difference in an AC30 and AC31 is in the controller, the motor is the same. The AC31 uses the newer 7501 controller with 108V nominal, the AC30 uses the 6501 controller with 80V nominal. Brian used 25 3.2V TS cells so 80V. If the above is correct, that would be the graph for the AC30 should describe his performance. He can supply the details of his setup better than me.


Yes you're correct, he did use the AC30 and 80 V. Maybe the specs for the AC30 are lower than reality and the specs for the ADC8 are higher than reality?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> I don't suppose theres any chance this motor could be set up for 144V nominal?


I don't know how high they can go, they do seem to be controller limited.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

After I saw the AC30 torque speeed curve at 84V I called and asked if they had a controller for 120V. They told me they have started discussion with Curtis on making a 144V controller for the motor, but that if Curtis does decide to do it, it will likely be 18 to 24 months before they have a product.  
I don't know how much the torque increases going to the 7501 controller that permits 108V nominal, 122V max. I just took a guess that it increased linearly. Maybe it is more. I've been trying to get HPG to give me torque-speed data for it, but no success so far. The torque speed curves for both motors are calculated estimates, but I would think that they are likely within +/-10% of actual.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Higher voltage could bring the efficiency above the 90% mark which would be nice. but......



tomofreno said:


> After I saw the AC30 torque speeed curve at 84V I called and asked if they had a controller for 120V. They told me they have started discussion with Curtis on making a 144V controller for the motor, but that if Curtis does decide to do it, it will likely be 18 to 24 months before they have a product.


Rrrr, **bangs head against wall**


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Why are you frustrated that higher voltage is not available ? This motor, running at 80V was able to maintain an 80mph speed in a Geo Metro. Brian mentioned that AC and DC dot not have the same Volts/RPM relationship. I took that to mean that higher voltages were not necessary with this motor to achieve highway speeds. This seems a definite advantage to me as compared to using a Warp or ADC motor and a DC controller. 

I would belt or gear together two motors, each running at lower voltage on their own controller and expect 100mph to be within reach. No ?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Because my lithium battery, charger, and BMS are already here and they are all configured for 144V (in theory close to 175V fully charged). I really don't want to go with a warP 9" but might have to. Still some time left to decide so maybe something else will come up.

I also need a motor that can max out at 100 Hp to meet the original project plans of matching the OEM performance of the donor car. Stacking two motors would not be worth while from a cost standpoint and still doesn't solve the voltage problem.

For what it is, this seems to be a great motor but I can't use it. If it can indeed take 144V and the controller is the only limiting factor, then that might be half the battle though............hmm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They also are working on a slightly larger version of the motor using the same controller that should be out in a couple of months. Same frame only longer and able to hold the torque higher in the RPM range, close to 3000RPM. If they do get Curtis, or someone, to build a bigger controller that could be really kick ass  Maybe Etischer's controller could be made to work with these motors


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> They also are working on a slightly larger version of the motor using the same controller that should be out in a couple of months. Same frame only longer and able to hold the torque higher in the RPM range, close to 3000RPM.


That would be great! I would buy one in a second


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Not sure, but I think this 96V controller might work with this motor.

http://www.everything-ev.com/72v96v-450a-ac-motor-controller-package-p-422.html

Anyone know who makes this controller?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since the Curtis 1238 for the AC31 already goes to 108 nominal, 130 cutoff, at 550 amps, I'm not sure why you'd want to use the one you linked to.
By the way, I got my motor yesterday  I'll up some pics in a little while.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Never mind then, I thought 80V was the limit. Didn't realize the controller can actually run that high.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Motor









Display


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

Mmmm...shiny. I decided to use this drive in my car as well, and just sent off a cheque to Thunderstruck tonight. Bit pricier than I'd hoped, but I think it'll be a good step up from an 8" ADC motor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

And you get regen  What battery chemistry and voltage are you running, and what are you using it in?


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> And you get regen  What battery chemistry and voltage are you running, and what are you using it in?


I'm going to go lithium for sure, but since it's likely to be months until I'm finished the car, I'm holding off for now. The gents at Thunder Struck said that 32 cells is about the max, so that's the plan (102V nominal?).

The car is a Ford Aspire - compact, about 2000lbs ICE. Old enough to be light with no power steering, new enough to have airbags and a decent crash test rating. Thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...so-begins-17215.html?t=17215&highlight=aspire

I'm taking my time and doing it right, so it's basically a stripped-to-frame rebuild. Just waiting now on a whole schlew of suspension parts, and good enough weather to start paint. Also ordered my adaptor plate from ElectroAutomotive tonight, so that should come in sometime between now and later


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually the people at HPG say the Curtis can handle 108 nominal and the cutoff is around 130, so 34 cells is possible. I specifically asked them about this since it contradicts what Brian from Thunderstruck was saying, and they say they are running a vehicle with that setup.


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## aktill (Jun 18, 2008)

That's good to know, I'll keep that in mind. It'll come down to what the batt weight ends up being. I'll have to go with a high Ah cell anyway to get the Wh about the same as before, and there's a big weight jump around the 200-260Ah mark.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

An interesting note, the contactor does not need a precharge resistor or clamping diode since the Curtis controller takes care of those internally.


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## raidsun (Feb 26, 2009)

Funny story. I emailed the EVdaytona guys and I was told that the motor they used was 8.5 inches. 

Here's the email I sent them:
"Hi. I was just wondering what diameter motor you have. Also how hot does the motor and controller get at high speeds?"

And the reply:
"8.5" AC motor
Lots of air cooling, and not much heat, even in Nevada summer."


The thing is, I talked to the guy at HPG and told me the motor they used was the 6.7 inch. From the sounds of it, he knew because HPG installed it themselves.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can tell you from the pictures I've seen the evdaytona used the smaller motor, though they may have recently changed it to the larger 8.5, though it would be a tight fit.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

david85 said:


> Not sure, but I think this 96V controller might work with this motor.
> 
> http://www.everything-ev.com/72v96v-450a-ac-motor-controller-package-p-422.html
> 
> Anyone know who makes this controller?


This design looks similar to *Curtis&Zapi drives..
But anyone noticed that certain brands are milking customers with their proprietary hand held programmers to adjust settings on the drive (assuming it can't be done via free software)? For the controller you posted it's almost 400quid extra, not cheap and very anti-consumer friendly in my book..

http://www.everything-ev.com/ac-motor-controllers-c-65_101_125.html?zenid=6nr9f5vc6oh02gg6hejpfapn85

I think these *particular low voltage AC boys (OEM) are missing the boat with the diy/conversion scene by a long shot (their primary business lays elsewhere in forklifts/golfcarts), since Kelly and similar DC drivetrains continue increase their power output, features (free software) and reliability hopefully too. If you need regen and <100V is enough (motorcycle/tiny car) just go with sepex (from Kelly) and D&D motor, yes it has brushes but the regen is silk smooth and it's a cheap package overall.

*frankly I think their product spec./pricing is a joke (for regular car application), it might be even worth considering to ponny up and go directly with high voltage AzureDynamics kit instead. The good news is they are the Aptera's drivetrain supplier, so they will have to brutally increase the volume of their production soon. Hence we can reasonably expect their AC kit could soften up pricewise for us in the future too..

Not to sound too harsh, lets also underline some of the positive aspects, according to Brian Hall's writeup (#1 page) he can see 15% better economy over DC system at 60mph, let's assume top regen in city-traffic application <15%, so you are suddenly in ~30% gain (70%) territory AC v. DC (mucho range miles extra!). Obviously this kit still being limited by its few HP/torque so applicable only with very light and/or aerodynamic donor cars/other contraptions, which are not that many, these days. Also dealing with ~5kW regen needs the capability/adjustments in your BMS, speaking of his TS batt. setup, that's also a consideration. But again, for these limitations, one could expect at least 30-50% lower pricing, which is not the case and likely won't be in the near term..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why would you expect lower pricing in a setup that performs better than an ADC 8 inch and Curtis controller, plus gives you regen? ADC 8 plus Curtis equals around $3002, (electricvehiclesusa.com), the AC 31 is $4300, which gives you regen and includes a multifunction display and interface wiring. Not to mention a certain inherent safety with AC where controller failure does not mean full throttle. The AC 31 seems to give more range and better performance from an equal battery pack, I'd say that's worth more, not less. Plus AC drives are more complicated than DC so you'd expect to pay more.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

AC-30/80V/46hp controller & motor kit
with additional sw/handheld controller ~$4.5grand
not sure what their "Spy Glass (Model 840)" system is all about, probably some form of input device

v.

Kelly KD72503 (72V/~40hp) sepex-regen, $700
(bare controller no harness included) 
+free software
+suitable sepex DC motor (but with lower rpm) < $1.5grand
Total ~$2grand

You can extrapolate similar ~2:1 wedge in pricing into higher level AC-31, I'm confident Kelly will be able to offer sepex controllers in higher voltage (~100V & >50hp) if there is demand for such product. French automakers had been producing 120-160V sepex drivetrains for their EV fleet 10-20yrs ago, and it is well tested, reliable system to this date, Kelly or other can achieve that "easily" as well.

So, we have to stick to apples to apples comparison, Curtis/Zapi low voltage AC system as such is not capable/suitable to run average donor car/conversion (1ton plus). Might be perfect for very small car or another segment like motorbikes, but in that situation you can use much cheaper sepex system (with regen) for that, with only 5-10% overall efficiency loss against AC. The question remains, is such a small margin, and other bonuses wich go with AC system v. sepex, like higher rpm and brushless motor worth 2x price?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Ok, I think I may have resolved my confusion over why Brian gets more pep with the AC30 than he did with the Advanced DC 8" motor even though the torque-speed curves indicate the DC motor has higher torque.

I failed to take current limiting by the motor controller into account. The Curtis 1221-74xx controller spec gives a max (2 min) current of 400A. This gives about 62 lb-ft torque according to the Advanced DC Motors torque-speed curve for the 203-06-4001 motor. Torque would be limited to this below about 2600 rpm with an 84V pack. The AC30 has about this torque at 2500 rpm and increases to about 100 lb-ft below about 1800 rpm. If Brian used the 1221 controller, torque and acceleration with the DC motor would be worse.

A Curtis 1231C-77xx controller has max current of about 550A so would give about 90 lb-ft torque at rpm below about 2500 rpm. It should give acceleration similar to the AC30.

To get more acceleration with the 8" DC motor a larger amperage controller like the Kelly 750A would have to be used. I don't know the safe limit for the motor. 

Tom


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Just so we're clear, is this indeed a true 3 phase brushless AC motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> AC-30/80V/46hp controller & motor kit
> with additional sw/handheld controller ~$4.5grand
> not sure what their "Spy Glass (Model 840)" system is all about, probably some form of input device


You don't need the handheld controller, I'm not using it, most people don't. You can change parameters with a PC if you wish. The 840 Spy Glass is the display for the controller, it shows RPM's, motor temperature, pack voltage, controller error messages, and can also be programmed to show any of the hundreds of controller variables if you wish. What would a similar display for a DC system cost? To be accurate you need to add that to the price. So, to compare, use the $4300 price for the AC31 motor, 108 volt controller, and 840 display, plus the wiring interface between the motor, controller, and display. (By the way, check and see what Solectria/Azure charges for their wiring interface, it adds over $1k to the cost.)



> v.
> 
> Kelly KD72503 (72V/~40hp) sepex-regen, $700
> (bare controller no harness included)
> ...


You need to stick to apples to apples. You price a Kelly 72 volt system, with no monitoring device, then say the Curtis 108 volt AC system is somehow equivalent? Yeah a Kelly 72 volt probably wont move a 1 ton plus vehicle very well, but the 108 volt AC31 with 100ft/lbs of torque to 2Krpm should. Since my Fiero will be around 2200-2500lbs after the conversion it should be a good test. It won't be a screamer but that's not it's intent.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Just so we're clear, is this indeed a true 3 phase brushless AC motor?


Unless those 3 big wires and terminals on the motor are there for some other reason


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Unless those 3 big wires and terminals on the motor are there for some other reason


Coooooooool.........


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

JRP3> Thanks for your input, but pls. read my post again, I compared directly that 72V sepex Kelly to AC-30 80V kit. In addition, have only extrapolated that stronger model version AC31 to some hypothetical 100V sepex Kelly or sourced from another vendor. I still stick by these numbers, that low voltage AC kit ala Curtis/Zapi is ~ 2x the price of DC sepex with little benefits in the end for the consumer..


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think part of the issue is that EV sized sepex motors are pretty rare here in the US. A quick look at the EValbum under sepex seems as if they are mostly in Europe, so I don't think they are a real option for most of us stateside.
I'm not all that familiar with sepex motors, but aside from regen don't they perform similarly to series motors, and therefore not as well as AC?


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## 4dam (Apr 14, 2009)

First post - basically signed up because I just saw these on thunderstruck and I'm thinking about using one of these HPGC motors to build an ultra cheap and efficient city car.

Is it possible to use this motor in a direct drive config (no trans and still 65mph capable)? In reality I would hardly ever cruise at more than 45mph though and even then not for much distance - pretty much city only.

Thinking of putting one in an original mini cooper (smallest, lightest and cheapest vehicle I can think of). They were 1,300 to 1,500lb from the factory back in the day so I think I could make 1,500lb finished weight with 6 or 8 AGMs or gels (going for the cheap so lithium is off limits). Thoughts anyone?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the problem with not using a transmission will be you'll always be using low RPM's and drawing high amps, and the motor won't be able to cool itself well. These can turn to 6000RPM, actually 8K but they say power drops off after 6 so they cap it at 6.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

frodus said:


> two motors, two controllers with AC... unless you mechanically couple them so they have ABSOLUTELY NO SLIP.... but its not recomended... there are many pitfalls... but if one motor's impedance is more, the other motor gets more current... which could cause it to overheat and fail... also, if the motors aren't aligned the exact same, the motors will be partially out of phase from eachother and not work the most efficiently/not work at all/fail.
> 
> I think you could call and ask hiperformancegolfcars and talk to their guys and see if you could get them to do a dual shaft motor for you.... They use single ended or open can motors for most of their stuff. I wouldn't do it yourself.


The wickedly expensive Brusa motor is designed to be "Siamese-able".

http://www.metricmind.com/images/asm810.jpg

Of course, for the price, I'd rather buy a completed EV.

-M


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

Whether will make it competition AC31? http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55
It more powerful, for heavier automobile. But also batteries it is necessary in 3 times more,312v, 1118 lbs Optima Yellow Top Battery and if to speak about LiFePO4 - that it is 11.000$.....
Whether it can be better?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those Solectria/Azure Dynamics will certainly be more powerful than an AC31, and that's a great price even for a used unit, as long as you don't mind dealing with the extra cells needed to get that voltage.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

+1 on great price!

electromotorsport is selling a motor+controller for about the same price that can only push out 45hp and 90ftlbs max....


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

gonduras said:


> Whether will make it competition AC31? http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55
> It more powerful, for heavier automobile. But also batteries it is necessary in 3 times more,312v, 1118 lbs Optima Yellow Top Battery and if to speak about LiFePO4 - that it is 11.000$.....
> Whether it can be better?


Well, sort of.... you need VOLTAGE.... but less current. You could get away with much smaller Ah cells in series to get the Wh you need.... if you have 200V.... and you need 10kwh, thats 50Ah batteries..... if you go 300V, then thats ~34Ah batteries for the same power.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

If not to speak about batteries, about their weight, the greatest possible run, about their price and about what that to average between these parameters which will allow to create an end-product. 
That it in aggregate more comprehensible decision in comparison with AC31? 
Or the opportunity will move heavier automobile is senseless due to the big weight of batteries? 
AC55 It is necessary 312V and it would be desirable to have not less than 60 miles of movement.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The AC55 runs off of 144V up to 336V.... you can run it off of 13 Yellow tops if you want. It depends on your range requirements.

If you want a higher voltage, then you can run smaller batteries.... you don't need large batteries to make a 300V pack.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

At that price...2 systems is still pretty affordable (one for the front wheels and one of the rear wheels.)

Combined = 160hp peak and 400ftlbs peak 

from the power graphs I remember the power was pretty smooth and available...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> +1 on great price!
> 
> electromotorsport is selling a motor+controller for about the same price that can only push out 45hp and 90ftlbs max....


Keep in mind that these are used units, which may be perfectly fine but a direct comparison to a brand new setup isn't exactly apples to apples.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> The AC55 runs off of 144V up to 336V.... you can run it off of 13 Yellow tops if you want. It depends on your range requirements.
> 
> If you want a higher voltage, then you can run smaller batteries.... you don't need large batteries to make a 300V pack.


I didn't realize the AC55 could run as low as 144 volts. Do these come with the spline flange coupler?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3, didnt you get one of the Eletromotorsport motors? AC-31?

Do you have any news/updates to report on its real world performance characteristics?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Keep in mind that these are used units, which may be perfectly fine but a direct comparison to a brand new setup isn't exactly apples to apples.


*"These AC55 motors are all NOS or Slightly USED (less than 800 miles on any unit) "*

*http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55*


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't realize the AC55 could run as low as 144 volts. Do these come with the spline flange coupler?


They can operate down to 100V, but are recomended to use above 300V. Likely due to efficiency and losses.

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC55_DMOC445ProductSheet.pdf

I'll check on the spline flange coupler, we're in the process of unloading the equipment.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> *"These AC55 motors are all NOS or Slightly USED (less than 800 miles on any unit) "*
> 
> *http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55*


Right, I wasn't suggesting any quality concerns, just that I assume this is a one time purchase at a special price. Essentially the initial purchaser subsidized the price by paying full price originally, or a bulk discount price, and then sold them off to evcomponents at a much lower price.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> JRP3, didnt you get one of the Eletromotorsport motors? AC-31?
> 
> Do you have any news/updates to report on its real world performance characteristics?


My conversion is going slowly unfortunately, too many other things going on, but hopefully within a month or so I can post some information.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Well sorry to hear, hopefully things work themselves out to your advantage. looking forward to your updates...


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

frodus said:


> I'll check on the spline flange coupler, we're in the process of unloading the equipment.


Do you know some specifics about the application history of these drives?
In what type of car/vehicle they have had been installed prior this fire sale and when (year of manuf. & firmware ver.)? Was it in those 1990s Solectria conversions? Is the hw/firmware compatible with current product line of AzureDynamic drives (DMOC445) for possible updates and or service? Does it come with the wiring harness and "boxes" ? Will AzureD honor these drives for firmware update if possible and for free, shipping paid by client (they usually don't allow upgrades at home)? Thanks

PS Why I ask? 
Debugging/tuning DMOC445 & AC55 combo in practice (direct drive or tranny) takes some efforts:
http://www.evalbum.com/1727
http://homepage.mac.com/insolation/EVanagon/Data.html
..there are many other related blogs about Azure/Solectria tricks (links from evalbum-controller brands)
http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/SOLE/16
..specifically running above 5k RPM with tranny is often NOT trivial feat: 
http://914ev.blogspot.com http://volt914.blogspot.com http://electrojeep.blogspot.com/


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

These were installed in buses, none of them has over 800 mile on them. they were run direct drive. It looks like they were all made between 1998-2002 from what I can tell so far. The firmware on the one in front of me is version 1.6 I Believe we have all the wireing harnesses and some of the accelerator pedals with the pots and the forward reverse switch etc. I do not believe that Azure will support these other than rebuild them and sell you the DMOC445. We plan to test each one to make sure they are functional before shipping them but we can not offer any warranty . 

Dave Kois
EV Components, LLC
Powered By DC, LLC
http://www.evcomponents.com
253-988-5020
Skype dkoisii


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

And what experience of use AC 31 exists for today?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

gonduras said:


> And what experience of use AC 31 exists for today?


The owner of electricmotorsport has an AC31 installed in his Geo Metro I think and he said that it had good usable power and that it had regen too.

You might want to reach out to them for some information or applications...


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

Only Geo Metro? There are no any more other variants? And all of us are doomed to go only on Geo Metro?
What greatest possible weight the automobile in which it is established AC 31 should have?
Can be something will approach more? I do not find any information on the finished projects with AC 31. And it would be desirable to learn about characteristics of the controller and about its programming


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can download the manual for the Curtis controller from the Curtis website. You can also try to contact HPG directly and ask them about their motor. They seemed to feel it would work well in my 2500 lb Fiero, and I believe they are using one in another vehicle, though I don't remember what it was. They are also supposed to be working on a larger motor, and trying to get Curtis to make a 144 volt controller.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

The documentation on the controller at me is. And on this to me interestingly to learn about adjustments in more detail how effectively to change factory presets for the best coordination with the concrete automobile. There it is a lot of them.... 
Speaking about concrete AC 31 with a voltage 108V.... your project while is uncompleted and completed, similar to yours I yet did not meet. Therefore I wait with impatience of the story about an end result.
As to the motor - that I did not see while the schedule of Torque with a voltage in 108V...

Hmmm... the greater motor... 144V controller... it is necessary to wait for?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Torque is supposed to be near 100ft. lbs. from 0-2000 RPM's or so.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

GrassrootsEV is carrying the AC31 at a nice price
http://www.grassrootsev.com/motorsac.htm
*$3,995.00

*


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

GrassrootsEV is carrying the AC31 at a nice price


It already for a long time is known.... But what controller??? 1238-7501 or 1238-6501...
And why the price is less??? There can be it defective? Or it is the unique complete set...


P.S. 
On the other hand the real price for such complete set should be no more than 3.000 $...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

What about the motor at that link tells you it is the AC-31 from HPG ? I didn't see the model number anywhere, and the "40hp" rating they give it is way short of what other sites list for the AC-31.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have the AC31, it looks exactly like the one at Grassroots, and all the other places. As for HP ratings, other places list it at 40-48 HP, and HPG tells me those numbers are just estimated anyway.
http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT5610.htm
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC_drive_performance.htm
Notice Thunderstruck lists it at 108 volts, while Grassroots and EVparts list it at 96. I think it has to be the 7501 controller at Grassroots because the 6501 is 84 volts nominal, unless Grassroots is listing the max cutoff of the 6501, but that's unlikely. HPG tells me the 7501 cuts off around 130 volts.
If we take 550 amps times 108 volts we get 59.4KW, times 84% system efficiency gives us 49.896KW. Multiply that by 1.341 to get HP and we end up with 66.91 HP.
http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/converter.htm
So I'm not really sure how they are figuring the HP numbers, but efficiency might be lower at full amp draw so that might be the difference.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

This site lists the AC-31 at 96V as 53HP

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php

So quoting 40HP makes it sound more like the AC-15.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dreamer said:


> This site lists the AC-31 at 96V as 53HP
> 
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_ac-induction.php
> 
> So quoting 40HP makes it sound more like the AC-15.


So whats the delay in getting the power curves for the 96V version??

I mean that comment has been on the site for awhile now...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The other way to calculate HP is torque x rpm divided by 5252. The 80 volt power curve I posted earlier in the thread shows about 100ft/lbs at 1800 rpm. 100 x 1800 divided by 5252 = 34 hp. If we use Electric motorsports 115 figure for torque at higher voltage and assume the torque cuts off later in the higher voltage setup at maybe 2000 or so then we get 44 hp. I think Electric motorsports is being a bit generous but who knows. Using the other formula I posted, kw x 1.341, it comes out higher, so maybe they are averaging the two results.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Here's a novel concept. How about the mfr placing the motor on one of these new-fangled gadgets called a "dynomometer" and providing actual specs based on that ?

This is a pet peeve of mine with all motor mfrs -- an electric motor should behave very consistently provided cooling, volts, and amps are controlled. Instead, it is all made to seem like guesswork dependent on battery type, controller, etc.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Any further updates JRP3?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I got the car home from work and setup a shelter over it, so I should actually be able to do some work on it now.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Still progress 

Did you decide on SE or TS Lithium cells?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I placed the order for 100ah TS cells, but James says they may come in as the new SE cells since they make a lot of cells for TS. Should find out in a few weeks.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

And what price? What that like it? http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I'm getting them through James and Dave at evcomponents.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

gonduras said:


> And what price? What that like it? http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34


I must have missed that part. Didn't know you were going with lithium.

Congrats!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They made me an offer I couldn't refuse  They've made lithium so cheap and easy by doing bulk purchasing and the quality and reliability seems so good there is little reason to use lead any more.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Too rude to ask numbers?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> They made me an offer I couldn't refuse  They've made lithium so cheap and easy by doing bulk purchasing and the quality and reliability seems so good there is little reason to use lead any more.


Its really amazing how much has changed in just a couple of years. I remember how worried I was ordering my sample and how concerned we were about TS's quality or in trusting an off shore chinese supplier. Now, its becoming the new standard. I've been in touch with folks at sky energy off and on over the last few months and they said they would sell to me at $1.10/ah even in small amounts.

The EV world really is changing and we finally have batteries to make some real cars.

EV components has been on the forum for a little while and seems to be a good trustworthy up and comming business.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Grant_NZ said:


> Too rude to ask numbers?


Numbers are on their website for all to see


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Its really amazing how much has changed in just a couple of years. I remember how worried I was ordering my sample and how concerned we were about TS's quality or in trusting an off shore chinese supplier. Now, its becoming the new standard. I've been in touch with folks at sky energy off and on over the last few months and they said they would sell to me at $1.10/ah even in small amounts.
> 
> The EV world really is changing and we finally have batteries to make some real cars.
> 
> EV components has been on the forum for a little while and seems to be a good trustworthy up and comming business.


Indeed. The nice thing about dealing with EVcomponents is for $1.10/ah you get to deal with someone in the US who will handle all the hassles for you, including warranty.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Indeed. The nice thing about dealing with EVcomponents is for $1.10/ah you get to deal with someone in the US who will handle all the hassles for you, including warranty.


 
I agree, but the price for these batteries nevertheless is high.
If to speak about BYD E6 the declared run in 300 + miles and the power consumption smaller than 200w/h on mile allows to assume total capacity of the battery in 60+ Kw.
Cost of this electromobile in the Chinese market about $20.000
If to take cells 100 TS 320v 200a/h - that cost will make $220*100=$22.000...
And what price for the automobile???
These cells should be cheaper in half...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

gonduras said:


> If to speak about BYD E6 the declared run in 300 + miles and the power consumption smaller than 200w/h on mile allows to assume total capacity of the battery in 60+ Kw.
> Cost of this electromobile in the Chinese market about $20.000


Until I see real world confirmation of those numbers I don't really believe them. It's easy to make claims, harder to achieve them. I doubt the BYD E6 will actually do 300 + miles at any real speed. They also make their own batteries so they obviously get the cheapest cost, plus they probably get large subsidies from the Chinese government.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

BYD only claims about 60 mile range for their BEV. I don't know where the 300 came from.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is a quote from an article on BYD: "BYD Auto has announced that its plug-in electric vehicle, the F3DM, is now available in China. The F3DM, which costs 149,800 Yuan (about $21,200) and can travel 100 km (63 miles) on a full battery charge, is the first mass produced plug-in electric vehicle."

As usual, no DoD or speed specified when range quoted.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> BYD only claims about 60 mile range for their BEV. I don't know where the 300 came from.


http://www.byd.com/showroom.php?car=e6
http://www.byd.com/showroom.php?car=e6


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the e6. Sounds great!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

249 mile range, not 300, and still unproven. I also didn't see a price.


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## gonduras (May 18, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> 249 mile range, not 300, and still unproven. I also didn't see a price.


Yes, the price is not present and while the automobile is not sold... But sales should begin from second half of this year but while is not present.
In the Chinese press the provisional price in $20.000 for China, and sale in Europe and America in 2011 under the price about $30.000 has been declared.
I shall buy it from China as soon as it there will appear... While I wait...

http://www.treehugger.com/byd-e6-electric-car-004.jpg


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I notice that shows 300km, which is 186 miles.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

They claim 18kW/62 mile = 290kW/mile, and 269 mile range. Assuming 80% DoD that means a 290kW/mile*269mile/0.8 = 97.5kWh pack! If they are prismatic LiFePO4 cells that would be for example 542 180Ah cells at around 6,660 lb. The vehicle curb weight is given as 4453 lb. And all for $30k. Hmmm


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Sorry I kept leaving the h off. Should all be kWh as the result of 97.5 kWh.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Boy, I don't know where my brain was yesterday. I took 97.5kWh then figured the number of batteries to give 97.5kAh 
The specs say the e6 uses BLDC motors, so maybe a 320VDC pack. That would be 97.5kWh/320 ~ 300Ah cells, about 100 of them, or maybe 200 160Ah parallel/series. So maybe 2400 lb or so. Too heavy for the 4400 lb vehicle weight, so the motors are likely a bit lower voltage. A price of $30k would be amazing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't spend too much time working with their numbers. I've seen three different claimed ranges, so until there are some real world performance examples I wouldn't trust any of it.


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2009)

Just get a tow vehicle and charge up your ev and go for broke. Drive till it has used 80% of the charge then tow it home. That would give you real world numbers on distance at a specific speed. Just like I did. Each EV is different and each has different driving habits too. All affect the outcome of distance per mile or total pack distance. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Some new info from HPG:


> We are working with someone now on a 156 volt controller.


 Not Curtis.



> We can build the motor for whatever voltage we need.






> With around 200 volts we should be able to get around 100HP.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cool.........

100Hp is getting closer to "adequate" heehee. Any time table on that by any chance?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, it's in the hands of the controller developer, you know how they can be.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> No, it's in the hands of the controller developer, you know how they can be.


LOL! do I ever Just glad I never sent Louie a deposite....


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

david85 said:


> LOL! do I ever Just glad I never sent Louie a deposite....



Who was "Louie", just so I know what company to watch out for ?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Electric Louie in long beach, california.

I want to be careful not to call him a scammer or some sort of business criminal. In all honesty, he gave me the impression of some one that is severly over worked and bit off more than he could chew.

He is a contributor (or was) to the EV scene in his neck of the woods and I hope he will be again some day. NEDRA has some of his records still on their website.

My problem with him was he would never get back to me with info, or formal pricing quotes that I requested over the phone or via Email. After several instances like this, I simply stopped trying to talk to him and looked else where for what I needed.

You can draw your own conclusions.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

We can build the motor for whatever voltage we need....with 200V it should get 100hp...Then why are they only working on a 156V controller? why not a 200V controller that can be run at 156V as well???


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> No, it's in the hands of the controller developer, you know how they can be.


Hmmm.... Should I take this personally?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hmmm.... Should I take this personally?


What was the Groucho Marx line, "I resemble that remark!"
If the capacitor fits....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Then why are they only working on a 156V controller? why not a 200V controller that can be run at 156V as well???


It's possible that the 156 controller is still compatible with their existing motor inventory, but I don't really know. I don't think there should be a big design or cost difference between 156 and 200 but I'm not a controller builder.
Maybe there is one around here who might comment, if we haven't hurt his feelings too badly


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hmmm.... Should I take this personally?


 Funny...

Thanks for keeping us updated and keep the data coming!


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks guys, I have learnt a lot about the AC31 from all the posts; it does seem a bit small for an MR2 or Miata/MX5, any opinions on that? Another motor I have been checking out is the 22 - 55kW (max) motor and controller from http://www.cn-dcmotor.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=409. Seems good and can be bought direct from China for about $5,500US. I'm waiting for some more info on the motor and may have asked some too difficult questions.... Does anyone have any experience with this motor & controller or the company?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> Thanks guys, I have learnt a lot about the AC31 from all the posts; it does seem a bit small for an MR2 or Miata/MX5, any opinions on that? Another motor I have been checking out is the 22 - 55kW (max) motor and controller from http://www.cn-dcmotor.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=409. Seems good and can be bought direct from China for about $5,500US. I'm waiting for some more info on the motor and may have asked some too difficult questions.... Does anyone have any experience with this motor & controller or the company?


There is an astralian company (I can't for the life of me find it right now) that sells those in the 20kw range I think. The manufacturer seems to have a minimum order policy on Alibaba trading, so they may not want to sell direct to you. However if they already gave you a price, I could be wrong about that. I don't know how many there are our there in conversions out there because I haven't seen any.

Also unsure if the 250kw package is even real. It could be a capability for production that they are claiming if a minimum order is filled. Doesn't mean the higher power motors are real yet. Don't be afraid to ask detailed questions. If they don't want to answer or side step, walk away.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

david85 said:


> Don't be afraid to ask detailed questions. If they don't want to answer or side step, walk away.


Exactly. So far I have been unable to get clear answers to specific questions from any of the Chinese vendors I have had questions for, and for the most part most of my questions are ignored, with them instead trying to sell me something else other than what I asked about (even in the cases where *they* contacted *me* first, or invited me to contact them via forum posts, etc). Usually when I continue to re-ask questions, they simply stop replying at all. 

I've had similar things happen with USA vendors, too, but nowhere near as badly or as often.
________
Volcano vaporizer


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks David, good to get your feed back. They did say the next size up (45kW) motor was not available which could mean like you say, it is a 'planned motor'. I will let everyone know if the 22kW model looks promising but I want a heap more info off them before I plunge in. I hope your project is going well, did you end up using the warp 9 and if so how is it going?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> Thanks David, good to get your feed back. They did say the next size up (45kW) motor was not available which could mean like you say, it is a 'planned motor'. I will let everyone know if the 22kW model looks promising but I want a heap more info off them before I plunge in. I hope your project is going well, did you end up using the warp 9 and if so how is it going?


Nope. Warp 9 was always my second choice because of lower efficiency and no regen. I ended up getting a 20kw BLDC motor (40kw peak) from a china. Its in an industrial cast iron frame, but still a few pounds lighter than a warp and should be more efficient (claimed 94-96% peak). Having Regen was the deal maker for me. I didn't want to have the car even heavier than before and not be able to engine brake if I had a warp motor since there are some big hills around here. Won't be as fast, but I was always holding out for longer range and I'm hoping I won't need too much power to get the saturn moving.

My source does supposedly have water cooled BLDC motors that are rated at 50kw constant and 100kw peak that weigh a mere 45-50kg (again with ~96% efficiency), but I couldn't use them because the voltage was too high. My battery is 144V, and the motors are 320V. Frankly, thats almost enough to power a light full size pickup. All of them are said to be "rare earth" motors.

More info here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/toys-finally-here-34170.html

Did your source tell you they have a minimum order policy? If not, they might be a viable source as a supplier for the DIY crowd (fingers crossed).

I should add that in some cases, the language barrier gets in the way. But usually you can tell if they are actually not able to understand you, or simply playing dumb.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

You are a great source of information David, I just did a quick check over of the website of the company you got your motor from and there certainly seems some potential there for me to source a motor and controller. Like you I would prefer a brushless motor and the efficiency of an AC system with regen.
I presume the motor you purchased was under what they call the '*Vehicle draw motor' *catagoey?
I did not get to read all the posts on your motor blog yet but will with interest for sure. It sounds like a clever solution to make another end casing to mount the motor, my only suggestion is that becasue of the high torque involved you make it so the case you make can't rotate against the main motor body case as the bolts look really light and not made to take the torque.
I'm still trying to decide whether or not to convert a small sports car Mazda MX5/Miata or a MR2/MRS or go for something bigger and more practical for taking the dog to the beach or using as a promotional vehicle etc. Two certain things, AC and rear wheel drive. I was thinking of a Holden Ute for the 'more practical' donor but the costs will soar due to the bigger components required unless I settle for a short range version and use my partners car for any longer range trips OR purchase a small diesel range extender generator i could put on the back for longer trips. I have a goal to travel around NZ and Austrailia in whatever I build.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

"Holden Ute"............


You're in Australia?

Sorry, but I just love the car based utes. They were a fad in north america back in the 60s and 70s but died out with the land boats in the early 80s. First time I saw the latest ford falcon ute from oz I nearly fell off my chair. Gas guzzling engine and all (I've said too much lol)

Yeah, I guess the motor would be called a "vehicle draw motor" but you won't find it listed on the website. Mine is a bit of a mutt because of the relatively low voltage compared to the power output. The high current worried them, so they went with a larger industrial frame motor to cope with the added heat. Water cooled was also an option but that would have taken longer to build. Thats why my motor isn't as powerful or lightweight as the 320V "vehicle draw" motors. 

A little hint is to explore the website in both chinese and english versions. The specs like RPM, efficiency, and dimensions are still visible in the chinese version and there are more details.

Basically, my motor is a custom, compromise build for my car. The controller is probably off the shelf though.

I will never go with 144V LiFePO4 ever again after finding all this out. I'll keep the lithium but probably double the voltage (at least).


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm from the north of NZ, almost a suburb of Sydney. I've spent a lot of time in Aus, working and two motorcycle trips which I just loved but the ultimate would a tour with an EV and to take my partner would not mean an EV motorcycle...
Many thanks for your continued info and certainly I would go for the higher voltage off the shelf and maybe water cooled versions.
It just amazes me the more you read on these sites the more you learn and when you think you have almost discovered all the EV motor makers someone like you comes along and informs of more possibilities.
I agree with a previous comment you made about trying some of the more well known makers of motors, much as I would love to use their motors, usually you don't hear back from them and 'word of mouth' for good service is huge to promote your products in the EV world I believe.
Yes the other Chinese company http://www.cn-dcmotor.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=409 did say a minimum order was 50 motors and controllers but also offered a 'sample' price of one unit 22kW for $5,500US
I like the sounds of your supplier and will follow that up and I'm sure many others will as well.
Yeah the 'utes' I mentioned are quite perculliar to NZ and Aus and have quite a following and are even raced! 
It will be interested to see what the future of the Holden vehicles are considering the troubles the parent company GM are in. I think some of the Holden and Ford models here are the same models you may have but with re- badging.
How are the rails and re-casing going?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

karlos said:


> I'm from the north of NZ, almost a suburb of Sydney. I've spent a lot of time in Aus, working and two motorcycle trips which I just loved but the ultimate would a tour with an EV and to take my partner would not mean an EV motorcycle...
> Many thanks for your continued info and certainly I would go for the higher voltage off the shelf and maybe water cooled versions.
> It just amazes me the more you read on these sites the more you learn and when you think you have almost discovered all the EV motor makers someone like you comes along and informs of more possibilities.
> I agree with a previous comment you made about trying some of the more well known makers of motors, much as I would love to use their motors, usually you don't hear back from them and 'word of mouth' for good service is huge to promote your products in the EV world I believe.
> ...


lol, suburb of sydney. I guess its true what I heard about travel between oz and nz being very casual.

The option of a sample order is new to me. Thank you so much for passing that along. Generally the term minimum order means "buzz off" when you are dealing with other companies. 

Is that for just the motor and controller or does that include a transaxle? I know lots of us would have liked to have gone with a fixed ratio complete powertrain like this (the GM EV1 used the same basic design but much more powerful). It might be worth keeping a close eye on this company in the future.

Rails are comming along well. Hope to start final assembly next week. The shop is full of parts!

Haven't touched the motor since testing it other than to move it out of the way Work now, play later....


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Below is the reply I got from http://www.cn-dcmotor.com/productShows.asp?ArticleID=409



> we have 22kw motor and controller,but 45kw is not available now.
> USd2700/pc for the motor,
> USD2450/pc for the controller,
> Minimum order 50 sets.
> ...


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

karlos said:


> It sounds like a clever solution to make another end casing to mount the motor, my only suggestion is that becasue of the high torque involved you make it so the case you make can't rotate against the main motor body case as the bolts look really light and not made to take the torque.


As long as the bolts tightly hold the two surfaces against each other, and are spaced as evenly as possible vs the surface area available, then the bolts are not taking the (entire) strain, but rather the surfaces are. The more surface area mated, the tighter the connection. Even with small bolts, as long as they tightly mate the surfaces, it still works. 
________
Vaporizer reviews


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## etoinshrdlu (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry. Wrong Thread


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## etoinshrdlu (Apr 13, 2009)

See reply to Frodus post


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## etoinshrdlu (Apr 13, 2009)

frodus said:


> Well, Thunderstruck quotes the AC-30 as 46hp peak.... From the curves direct from the motor manufacturer (who has a dyno) it says 36Hp.... at the same voltage 84V and 550A....I don't know where the discrepancy is.... but I'd trust the excel data from the manufacturer (which I went off). I don't have the AC-31 motor specs, but I seriously doubt 53Hp is a realistic number... but 115ftlbs might be realistic.
> 
> Another thing, 108V is absolute max for that controller before you start to fry stuff.... if you take the pack fresh off the charger, and coast down a hill and do regen it COULD blow the controller.... as the voltage would spike above the threshold of the parts on the controller.... so use caution if you are wanting to use 108V.


_Maybe this is over my head but how would two separate AC motors with two separate controllers and separate battery packs that are only tied together mechanically by a belt drive have a phase error. You said that same thing would happen with DC motors unless run in series but I've seen a couple of cars that use parallel motors and controllers and have been doing so for some time. Would gear drive eliminate this?
I've driven Thunderstruck's owners Geo Metro which has the AC-30 motor
And is there a difference between running the Curtis controller supplied with this motor kit at 108 volts and running a Curtis DC controller rated at 144 volts with a 144 volt pack?
_ with an 80 volt pack and it flies compared to the ICE version and compares to some small V8s. And the AC-31 is more powerful.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Maybe this is over my head but how would two separate AC motors with two separate controllers and separate battery packs that are only tied together mechanically by a belt drive have a phase error.


It wouldn't. Where did I say it would?



> You said that same thing would happen with DC motors unless run in series but I've seen a couple of cars that use parallel motors and controllers and have been doing so for some time. Would gear drive eliminate this?


I said what?

I have said in the past that paralling motors is not advisable because neither motor has a current limiter of its own. The current is not balanced between the two motors. Best option is to go 2 controllers 2 motors, unless your controller does series parallel switching.

You *cannot* however parallel or series the output of ANY controller.




> I've driven Thunderstruck's owners Geo Metro which has the AC-30 motor
> And is there a difference between running the Curtis controller supplied with this motor kit at 108 volts and running a Curtis DC controller rated at 144 volts with a 144 volt pack?


Two different types of motors, two different types of controllers. Curtis doesn't make a 144V AC controller, and you cannot use a DC controller on an AC motor, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


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## etoinshrdlu (Apr 13, 2009)

The original post of yours seems to say it is extremely unwise to attempt this but your response here seems to say it isn't a serious problem.

_Originally Posted by frodus 
two motors, two controllers with AC... unless you mechanically couple them so they have ABSOLUTELY NO SLIP.... but its not recomended... there are many pitfalls... but if one motor's impedance is more, the other motor gets more current... which could cause it to overheat and fail... also, if the motors aren't aligned the exact same, the motors will be partially out of phase from each other and not work the most efficiently/not work at all/fail._

And you said that running this motor/controller at 108 volts was the ragged edge and risked your controller. My comment wasn't about using a 144 volt DC controller with this motor but just a comparison using a 144 volt DC controller and motor rated at that level with a 144 volt pack (would this also be dangerous).


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> The original post of yours seems to say it is extremely unwise to attempt this but your response here seems to say it isn't a serious problem.


Reread my post.....I was talking about two different scenarios....
Option 1) one controller, 2 motors, mechanically linked so that there's NO SLIP whatsoever (pitfalls include non balanced load, unmatched phase)
option 2) (preferred) 2 controllers, 2 motors. (this solves the unmatched load and umatched phase issue)

They're two completely different systems. Not the same.



> _Originally Posted by frodus _
> _two motors, two controllers with AC... unless you mechanically couple them so they have ABSOLUTELY NO SLIP.... but its not recomended... there are many pitfalls... but if one motor's impedance is more, the other motor gets more current... which could cause it to overheat and fail... also, if the motors aren't aligned the exact same, the motors will be partially out of phase from each other and not work the most efficiently/not work at all/fail._





> My comment wasn't about using a 144 volt DC controller with this motor but just a comparison using a 144 volt DC controller and motor rated at that level with a 144 volt pack (would this also be dangerous).


People use 144V controllers and motors all the time with no problem. I guess I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking to compare the two performance-wise? The torque curves/specs are out there for both systems.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Actually the people at HPG say the Curtis can handle 108 nominal and the cutoff is around 130, so 34 cells is possible. I specifically asked them about this since it contradicts what Brian from Thunderstruck was saying, and they say they are running a vehicle with that setup.


 Have you gotten any other confirmation of the 130V cutoff JRP3? Where did you get the 130V number originally? 

Tom


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The first mention of 130 volt was from Brian Hall of Thunderstruck, I then confirmed that number from HPG who said they have actually seen it cut off a little higher than 130, 135 ish I believe. I added 2 more SE cells to my pack and will be trying 36 cells charged to around 3.45 max, 124.2 volts max pack voltage. We will see how that works out. You're doing the same right?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> The first mention of 130 volt was from Brian Hall of Thunderstruck, I then confirmed that number from HPG who said they have actually seen it cut off a little higher than 130, 135 ish I believe. I added 2 more SE cells to my pack and will be trying 36 cells charged to around 3.45 max, 124.2 volts max pack voltage. We will see how that works out. You're doing the same right?


 Yes. I'll charge to that or a bit less per cell to leave room for regen as I drop about 200 ft shortly after leaving home. I'll have to test, but I'm thinking regen current will be less than around 100A going down the about 3% grade. It takes about 1/25 hr to drop down the hill, so maybe 4Ah regen at 124V or 496Wh. Pack energy at 124.2V is about 124.2V*180Ah = 22.4kWh. I'm thinking 180Ah*36 cells*3.6V/cell = 23.3kWh, and 23.3kwh - 22.4kWh = 900Wh, leaving, me about 400Wh headroom. If so, I'll be about 2.2V below the 130V cutoff.

The cells are mounted in the car. I have to finish wiring up relays, gauges, controller, and install a ceramic heater core and Voltblochers, then I find out if that voltage works (after I fix any bugs). The cells are all between 3.27 and 3.28V now. I'll likely drive down the hill with that SOC watching the regen current on the TBS gauge to see how much I get, and adjust my charging voltage appropriately. I'm glad to hear HPGC said they have seen the controller cut off a bit above 130.

I ended up using THHN 1/0 cable from Home Depot for motor/controller connection. The NEC rating is 170A at 60 Hz. Stiff stuff, but it stays where you put it. I could pre-bend it to the shape required, and installed the lugs at the required angle to each other as twisting the wire on such short runs would be very difficult and stress the crimps. I wouldn't want to try to route it through the car. The 1/0 lugs clear each other by about 1/8" on the motor. Skin depth at 400 Hz is about 3mm, larger than the wire strand diameter, so resistance will be essentially the same as for DC.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool, I didn't realize you were using the 180 ah cells, I thought you had the same 100 ah I'm using. Do you have a build thread, or pictures? I'm still working on battery racks, I'll have a temporary setup in the trunk for some of them, once I'm comfortable that they are all behaving I'll stick some in the gas tank tunnel. I plan on doing a remote mounted BMS so I can see what they are all doing.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Cool, I didn't realize you were using the 180 ah cells, I thought you had the same 100 ah I'm using. Do you have a build thread, or pictures? I'm still working on battery racks, I'll have a temporary setup in the trunk for some of them, once I'm comfortable that they are all behaving I'll stick some in the gas tank tunnel. I plan on doing a remote mounted BMS so I can see what they are all doing.


 No build thread. I've taken pictures but not gotten around to posting any. I have to figure out how I re-sample them down to small enough file size to post. Then I guess I will put up a thread on the build forum here. 

Tom


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

Hi Tom

Using Windows on your PC? 

If so right click on pitcure -> open with -> Microsoft Office Picture Manager -> click Edit Pictures and it brings up a list of editing functions including resize


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

tomofreno said:


> I have to figure out how I re-sample them down to small enough file size to post.


If you have a lot of them you want all resized to the same size, you can stick copies of them all in a folder, then get "at32 batch JPEG Branding Resizer v1.00b", which is free from a number of freeware/shareware repositories. You can even watermark the pictures if you have a BMP file with your logo. I use it to batch resize all the pics for my Electricle blog posts, before uploading.
________
Web shows


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's an online image resizer http://www.resize2mail.com/
Also image hosting sites like photobucket allow image resizing.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks all for the help. I used MSOffice picture manager to compress a couple photos. The first shows the main battery box with the lid open, the second shows a similar view with the lid and carpet down over the box. That line in the carpet is an artifact of the compression. It doesn't exist in the actual carpet. 

Another battery box located in the wheel well can be seen in the second view. It unfortunately sticks up due to the 11.3" height of the cells. The hole in the rear of the main box is for cable connections to the rear box and also ventilation - there is a 145 cfm blower mounted on the rear box under the decking. Air passes through 2" pvc to under the hood. 

The main box now has 20 SE180 cells in it, the rear one has 8, and there are 8 more in a box under the hood. Boxes are made of 16 gauge steel and have 1/2" polyurethane insulation on bottom and sides. The cells sit on Farnam battery heaters on the insulation. Oh, the rear box has been repainted gray to match the interior better. The car is a 2001 Suzuki Swift.















I guess that shoots my excuse for not starting a build thread. Will have to wait a bit though, too much wiring to do right now!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looking good. What do you predict your finished weight will be?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Looking good. What do you predict your finished weight will be?


 About 2300 lb. Original curb weight was 1895 lb according to spec, and I got about 1900 from measurements on one wheel at a time using a pair of bathroom scales as dtbaker shows on the website of his conversion. GVW is 2624 lb.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I should end up around 2500 so it will be pretty close and we can compare performance of the AC31 and 50 setups at the same voltage.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I should end up around 2500 so it will be pretty close and we can compare performance of the AC31 and 50 setups at the same voltage.


Now this i am liking! Actual real-life comparisons! looking forward to it gentlemen


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Always nice to get real data. Relative performance will also be affected by the gear ratios in the two vehicles. I think you can predict fairly well how they will compare by comparing the torque-speed curves from HPGC with correction for the 115V operating voltage. The AC30/31 curve is at 84V, so you will have about 37% higher voltage, and the AC50 curve is at 96V, so I will have about 20% higher voltage. Torque at a given rpm will increase by about these percentages as long as it is not above the torque at lower rpm which is limited by the max controller current, 550A in either case. This torque is 99 lb-ft for the AC31, and 90 lb-ft for the AC50. So at 115V I would expect 99 lb-ft torque for the AC31 out to about 2300 rpm, and 90 lb-ft torque for the AC50 out to about 3500 rpm. At higher rpm than these torque should decrease at a similar rate as in the above curves. Shaft power is the product of torque and shaft angular velocity so peak power should be at a bit above 2300 rpm for the AC31, and a bit above 3500 rpm for the AC50, at 115V. The product of 90 lb-ft torque and shaft radial velocity at 3500 rpm compared to 99 lb-ft and shaft radial velocity at 2300 rpm gives the higher peak power for the AC50 compared to the AC31. Because that peak power occurs at higher rpm, it will occur at higher vehicle speeds in each gear compared to the AC31.

Tom


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice breakdown. My understanding was that those plots from HPG were theoretical, not actual dyno results.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I know the graphs for the AC50 are dynomometer data taken by Curtis. as HPGC emailed me the day the motor went on the dyno there. A couple months passed before the data arrived, with me emailing HPGC every week or so asking if they had it yet. I was trying to decide whether to go with the AC50 or an Advanced DC 8" motor. I wanted to convert this summer, and springtime was zipping by.

Tom


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

You can also tell it is real data from the voltage sag on the battery pack. The pack voltage is 96V at low currents and drops to 85V at higher currents. HPGC said they were old lead acid cells. So performance at high currents will be a bit better with lithium cells.

Tom


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I guess I've never seen the AC50 data, good to know.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

does anyone now if two curtis 1238 can be used in series for higher voltage? 
something like this:


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Sounds dodgy to me unless they are controlling separate motors or a linked to control the frequency so they do not get out of sync.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

efan said:


> does anyone now if two curtis 1238 can be used in series for higher voltage?
> something like this: (image removed)


Those controllers are DC, and are wired in parallel, just with separate contactors on controller battery inputs. I wonder how they got the connectors to mirror image like that. I actually think that this setup is pretty dodgy. I looked at the car's web site; the two contactors' coils are in parallel, so both controllers work at the same time. The paralleling seems to work (getting over 1000A from the two controllers), per the history page. I'm quite amazed that this works.

I would never connect the _inputs_ of two controllers in series (AC or DC) across one pack. I just don't think that they would share voltage evenly enough. It could work on the input side if you split or tapped the pack, but then you could have issues with potentially unbalanced loads.

As mentioned above, there are severe issues of synchronising the two controllers. This won't matter for DC controllers connected in parallel; it most certainly would matter for AC or DC controllers whose outputs are connected in series.

Finally, with 2 AC controllers, you have 6 output leads, and with one motor, 3 input leads. How are you going to series this mess?

Unfortunately, I don't think that this is a practical way to overcome the nominal 108 VDC limit of the Curtis AC controllers.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

I see what you mean Coulomb about the difference between 'in series' and in parallel'. I guess the reason DC controllers can work in parallel is that they are simply switching the power on and off, kind of like opening a water tap and they don't have to be in time with motor position like AC if I understand correctly. Be interesting to know the result of two DC controllers hooked up in series; seems to me that would not work as it is not pure current but interrupted current so the wave of one pulse going to the other could hit in between the wave of the other, an open circuit so the result???
I look forward to someone explaining this more eloquently!


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> I wonder how they got the connectors to mirror image like that.


It doesn't look like they are mirror imaged, just that the one controller is rotated 180? to the other; all the contacts are offset/diagonal to the other controller. The motor output of each is still hooked up to the other, and then to the motor via that red Anderson, AFAICS. 

Now, I cannot see for sure, but it looks like the pair of controller contacts closest to the motor are wired together as well, and from there to the motor, though the ones farthest from it appear to be wired separately to something else (the contactors, possibly). 

Since the closest leads are not (usually) going to both be the same electrical point in each controller, assuming those controllers are unmodified and identical models, I'm of a mind to say they do *look* like they are wired in series. So something must be different about them because of being ordered directly from the manufacturer, specifically so they'll work like you see them. 





> I would never connect the _inputs_ of two controllers in series (AC or DC) across one pack. I just don't think that they would share voltage evenly enough. It could work on the input side if you split or tapped the pack, but then you could have issues with potentially unbalanced loads.


Actually, I don't think it would work with a single unsplit pack at all, because the battery negative of a controller (at least, all the ones I've worked on for lower power, including the Curtis 1204 I have here) is also the motor return. If you wired two in series but powered them off the same, you'd just be shorting across one of the controllers completely, right?
________
Web Shows


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Amberwolf said:


> It doesn't look like they are mirror imaged, just that the one controller is rotated 180° to the other; all the contacts are offset/diagonal to the other controller.


Sure, but any way that you rotate it you don't get the terminals shifted but still in the same order. So maybe one is a differently made "slave unit", that somehow doesn't even need throttle control.

Surely you can't just swap + and - inputs and expect the controller to work.



> Since the closest leads are not (usually) going to both be the same electrical point in each controller, assuming those controllers are unmodified and identical models, I'm of a mind to say they do *look* like they are wired in series. So something must be different about them because of being ordered directly from the manufacturer, specifically so they'll work like you see them.


They are definitely in parallel, as shown in the schematic.

If you rotate them through a vertical axis, then one will have + at the rear and one will have -. This is clearly not the case:
 Edit2: Use thumbnail. Larger picture here.

That's from before he wired up the second contactor; note the input positive leads are paralleled as well.

If you rotate about the short horizontal axis, one controller ends up upside down, the positives remain at the rear, but there is no offset, so no need for that diagonal. (Edit: I was guessing here that the blue boxes are not part of the original controller, just a way to mount them. I don't know the T-Rex / Alltrax controllers at all.)

If you flip about the long horizontal axis, well the terminals aren't beside each other.



> Actually, I don't think it would work with a single unsplit pack at all, because the battery negative of a controller (at least, all the ones I've worked on for lower power, including the Curtis 1204 I have here) is also the motor return. If you wired two in series but powered them off the same, you'd just be shorting across one of the controllers completely, right?


Well, this just highlights the folly of connecting controllers in series. The motor return is assumed to be connected to the input negative. Even if you don't short any controllers (by not connecting the top controller's negative to any motor terminal), the top controller isn't going to have a path for the catch diode's current (from the negative "input/output" lead usually to motor negative). Splitting or tapping the pack doesn't help with this problem.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2009)

You can't see everything in the photo so speculation is the theme for some of this. The setup worked as the vehicle performed very well. He sold the vehicle long ago and we do not have the new owners information to contact to get the real skinny of this particular setup. I sure hope this vehicle is being used and not hidden away in some garage just sitting collecting dust because of some dead batteries. Hell of a nice setup. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tom mentioned HPG has a new website so I thought I'd update this thread with a link.
http://hpevs.com
It's still under construction somewhat but there is a neat Jetta project being built with what looks to be a siamese AC motor and 2 Curtis controllers:
http://hpevs.com/on-road-conversions/jetta-project


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Really interesting... Siamese AC 50s would give 100hp & 180ftlbs @ 3000rpm


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## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

it's maybe for that reason (new website building) thay never answer my emails.

JRP3, do you have their new contact mail?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I haven't emailed them in a while but I always used [email protected]s.com


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Looks like very nice work on the Jetta. Wish I had that much space. But of course without the weight penalty resulting in more $ for cells for a given range target. On my car it seems you can have one of three: light were you need it, your hands where you need them, or unblocked line of sight where you need it.  HPGC said they will be adding more to this website soon.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

That's just begging for a dropped wrench


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## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

some celles are in parallel?

on this picture, what are the black boxes placed verticaly? dc converters?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like every 2 cells are paralleled. I don't think those are DC/DC's, they look too small and the wiring to them looks too small. Maybe some sort of BMS?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

those look like DC-DC converters to me.... maybe a newer curtis DC-DC, surepower or Sevcon... most of them are about the same size. My vicor is 200W and only a fraction of that size.

The wires coming out go to fuses and then to some terminals.... and it looks like to some other terminals and then to the contactor...... Looks like they did a redundant system.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

80N541 said:


> some celles are in parallel?


1 string of 2 parallel.


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## CBrune (Nov 12, 2009)

80N541 said:


> some celles are in parallel?
> 
> on this picture, what are the black boxes placed verticaly? dc converters?


Boy those look familiar. They are Sure Power DC/DC converters. I designed them. Same converter that is used on the GEM.
They are good for about 30 amps each, although I wouldn't run them at full current continuously. As I recall they should only be used on up to 96V systems. I think there is an over-voltage cutout that might cutout at the high end of a charge cycle, or in this case perhaps during regen. Maybe not that big of a deal if there is a battery on the output.
Regards,
Chris Brune


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'd like to know the specs of that jetta. Range, speed, weight....does anyone know?

Looks like decent setup.


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