# DIY Hybrid



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Are there any RWD vehicles that you could steal the rear wheels/diff off and transplant it onto your car? Did it come in a 4WD version?


----------



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

That's a great point, Matt.

If the vehicle was available in an RWD/AWD configuration, or if it's already in such a condition, it may be possible to alter it so that the "remote axle" is driven by the electric drive.

Also, if this is possible, it may be probable that alternative gear ratios are available, which may make it easier on the electric motor.

In either case, though, make sure that the driveshaft RPM will not be in excess of the motor's maximum RPM when at speed, otherwise you'll become more familiar with the motor's internals.


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

mattW said:


> Are there any RWD vehicles that you could steal the rear wheels/diff off and transplant it onto your car? Did it come in a 4WD version?


I will look into the RWD/AWD question, and I thank you for the suggestion.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> That's a great point, Matt.
> 
> If the vehicle was available in an RWD/AWD configuration, or if it's already in such a condition, it may be possible to alter it so that the "remote axle" is driven by the electric drive.
> 
> ...


DJ that is such an excellent idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!

makes we want to get a Suburu just to make a Hybrid


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

rctous said:


> DJ that is such an excellent idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> makes we want to get a Suburu just to make a Hybrid


Or, maybe a Gen1 RTAWD Honda CRV..?.  

I'm also very interested in the hybrid conversion idea. 
If it didn't cost an arm-n-leg, and only added 4 or 5 MPG, it might be a fun project. 
But, if it added 10+ MPG, that would be *sweet!*


----------



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Xringer,

I don't see why it couldn't.

Look in the garage for TexomaEV's pusher trailer.

When he gets up on the freeway with that, he can double his MPG (60+).


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

The honda insight can get around 70mpg and it's a parallel hyrbid. (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm). The Mitsubishi Eclipse had AWD package for almost all models. With it's fairly small body and attractive drag coefficient (1992 was Cd.31) it would make a good vehicle to covert to a hybrid as well. The mileage increase you get would really depend on how much the electric motor is assisting the ICE and that would depend greatly on the size of the battery pack and how long you drive. The Eclipse also had a lot of turbo'd models and there's one with 1016hp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0ksflubIoI&feature=related) Zoom Zoom?


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Dang.. I sold my 91 Laser back in 1999 so I could get this Honda.
My good buddy is still driving it down in Conn. 

I shoulda kept it!


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: DIY Hybrid.. Substitute EV motor for AC compressor ??*



TX_Dj said:


> Xringer,
> 
> I don't see why it couldn't.
> 
> ...



That trailer is for long trips. I don't make enough of them to make it worth while.

I was just out riding my bike in the cool air, thinking about HybrAd methods.
(Hybrid Adapter).



What if you had an older gashog and the AC went out.. AND, They want $895 to repair it!

You rip out all the AC parts to save weight and then use the compressor mounting bracket to install a small 48vdc EV motor! 
Mount four 12V batteries, controller and a slider pot on the dash..?..

Sounds so simple, someone must have already done it..


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

so you're saying to use the accessory/serpentine belt to assist the ICE? Sounds very possible, only thing that might keep that from working is that the belt might just slip. if the belt slips then you could just weld a sprocket to crank pully and use a motorcycle/bicycle chain.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> so you're saying to use the accessory/serpentine belt to assist the ICE? Sounds very possible, only thing that might keep that from working is that the belt might just slip. if the belt slips then you could just weld a sprocket to crank pully and use a motorcycle/bicycle chain.



There is an (almost) company that's trying to make and sell a motor/gen unit that replaces the alternator. 

This is a similar idea. It just might be possible to use a PM motor and
a re-gen controller too. I do a lot of 5th gear coasting (engine braking),
since my CRV goes into Fuel-cut-off mode once the speed gets up a bit.
Or, if I down shift to 4th, I get cut-off at slower speeds..

With regen on, I could stay in 5th and jam some amps back into the pack! 

Just think about it.. Turn on your AC and you drop 2 or 3 MPG.. 
But, turn on that PM motor and get 2, 3 or 8? extra MPG.. 
Depending on your E-foot.. 

I've driven a lot of cars that seemed to drop about 10 HP when you 
turned on the AC. My 1973 Lemans (350 engine) turned into a VW
bus when it's AC came on!!

If the HyBrad motor you install isn't a monster. The belts might do alright.
Unless you went overboard.. 

Humm, I wonder if an 8" OD motor would fit in my CRV??







ME-0709 PM Pancake 24-72V VDC Brushed

Hehehehe!


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

sounds pretty good. my metro doesn't even have ac lol. i would have torn it out by now if it did tho. could probably connect the pot directly to the accelerator so the system become somewhat passive. to test how much power the belt traction can handle if you could get ahold of an old school torque wrench and apply pressure until the belt slips then read it if you can, i'm really curious how much the belt could handle. sounds like theres a lot of promise there for a bolt in parallel hybrid kit.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> sounds pretty good. my metro doesn't even have ac lol. i would have torn it out by now if it did tho. could probably connect the pot directly to the accelerator so the system become somewhat passive. to test how much power the belt traction can handle if you could get ahold of an old school torque wrench and apply pressure until the belt slips then read it if you can, i'm really curious how much the belt could handle. sounds like theres a lot of promise there for a bolt in parallel hybrid kit.


Just think about how much load the alternator puts on the engine when your 12V battery needs a charge after starting up on a cold morning and you have the lights, heater and rear window defroster running. Then you have to give the guy next door a jump!! 
How often does the Alt belt slip? 

The AC compressors I've seen on some older cars are big and they put 
a big load on the ICE. I don't think those belts slip much.. 

Using a manual system, I would just leave it in the re-gen mode most of the time. 
Let it put a little amperage into the pack, until I wanted to scoot up a hill or do some highway cruising. 


It should not be super hard to come up with an automatic control system
that would keep an eye on the pack and supply the engine with some extra power, depending on it's needs. (Vacuum pressure?) 
I think the Amp hours available would be a BIG factor in programing the auto-assist system. 

I was looking at a little Scott 12V motor 
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/mo-4bc2850.htm








and that got me thinking about forgetting the regen and just use the car's 12V system to drive the assist motor! 
Maybe you would have to get a new 12V battery, one more suited to the task.
Or, put a few of them in parallel ? _Wonder how well that would work_?


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

i'm not sure if i'm following you but unless you want it for acceleration if you're going to run it exclusively off of the vehicles 12v system and not adding any energy to the system via a battery charger then you'll only loose efficiency. the power has to come from somewhere for the electrical assist and if it's coming from the alternator then you just end up with a fancy energy loop and a bit is lost.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> i'm not sure if i'm following you but unless you want it for acceleration if you're going to run it exclusively off of the vehicles 12v system and not adding any energy to the system via a battery charger then you'll only loose efficiency. the power has to come from somewhere for the electrical assist and if it's coming from the alternator then you just end up with a fancy energy loop and a bit is lost.




I'm talking about a new battery with a LOT of extra Amp hours..
Like maybe a *MK 8A4D AGM 12v 198ah !! 
*http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/ba-mk-8a4d.htm

Wow, that thing is HEAVY.. Maybe that's a tad large..  (Depending on your motor size).

Anyways, you would want the extra juice so you could use the assist freely during short trips around town.

And your alternator isn't really going to be able to fully charge it back up 
during a short trip. It's going to try.. 
Once you get home, you pull out the big 12V charger and let it do the job. 
 Wow, a nice 12V charger for $150... 


Sears item# 02871240000 Mfr. model# 71240 

Manual operation, 6V/12V Portable Wheeled Battery Charger with Engine Start, Timer-controlled shutoff is ideal for charging car, truck, marine, RV, farm equipment, motorcycle, lawn/garden tractor and deep cycle batteries. The powerful 250-amp engine start provides emergency starting power. The 50-amp rapid and 15-amp fast and 2-amp slow/maintenance charge rates charge any size 6 or 12V lead-acid battery. Includes 8AWG/6Ft battery cable and clamps, ammeter gage, handle and wheels. Some assembly required. UL listed.



Timer Control: Dial with automatic shut-off
Carrying Handle: Ergonomic made of sturdy aluminum with grip handle
Cord length: 6-ft. power cord and 6-ft./8 AWG output cable
Display: Color-coded analog ammeter
Case: Powder-coated painted stamped steel
Charge Rates: Engine start- 250 Amp (6/12V) and Timed or Manual Charge- 50, 15, or 2 Amp
Wheeled charger for shop or shore charging


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

ok i get what you're saying then. wouldn't you rather have a battery charger built into the car so it's always with you? I'm working on a project to replace my alternator with peltier plates that produce electricity with a temperature gradient (http://www.virtualvillage.com/Items...itle=320W Thermoelectric Cooler Peltier Plate) i can mount them on my engine where it's hot and then put a heatsink on the outside with a fan to help cool the cold side and i can produce 40Amps at 12v with the two on the way. which is only 10amps shy of the brand new duralast alternators that they sell for my car. when they finally get here (like two weeks) i'll be posting a new thread on ecomodder.com forum to explain how i did it in detail.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> ok i get what you're saying then. wouldn't you rather have a battery charger built into the car so it's always with you? I'm working on a project to replace my alternator with peltier plates that produce electricity with a temperature gradient (http://www.virtualvillage.com/Items...itle=320W Thermoelectric Cooler Peltier Plate) i can mount them on my engine where it's hot and then put a heatsink on the outside with a fan to help cool the cold side and i can produce 40Amps at 12v with the two on the way. which is only 10amps shy of the brand new duralast alternators that they sell for my car. when they finally get here (like two weeks) i'll be posting a new thread on ecomodder.com forum to explain how i did it in detail.



Yeah, I saw some on-board chargers, and they might be nice, but remember, this would be a Plug In Mild Hybrid. PIMH?
And the ICE is going to always be there to get you home. 
At home, you would have your high amperage charger to plug in,
just in case you got a hankering for Pizza at 10PM.. 

In the case of a PIMH van with a big flat roof, perhaps a 185 watt PV panel would be nice.. 

------

I put one of those CPU coolers in a little sixpack carrier, but never got my
food very cold, since it wanted more Amps than my bench supply had..

I did not know you produce that kind of power with those things..
I was just dumping in power trying to cool off a coke & tuna sandwich. 

You have peaked up my interest now. Are you sure those specs aren't just for the input? 
Do you have a URL showing how they can be used to convert engine heat into 480 watts.. *That's equal to 0.64 HP!!*

Hey! if these thing really produce that kind of power, why not buy a bunch
of them.. There has to be a few KW of waste heat pouring off that ICE
and it's exhaust system..

Heck, I could forget about that super heavy battery and just use a few ponds of peltier modules to power my ICE assist motor!

Is this starting to sound like perpetual motion?? LOL!


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

lol shhh don't say that or we'll get banned . lets just say it's reclaiming energy that would normally be lost due to the inefficiency of the internal combustion process. i'm really surprised that the car companies in all their wisdom haven't done this yet (but then again the major car manufacturers have been doing horrible work for the last 39 years (1969 ford mustang, pontiac gto etc. )). they claim 400watts but that's probably with the highest temperature gradient possible. as far as i know peltier plates are two way, you put in x current and get y temperature gradient, you put in y temperature gradient and get x current. If i can get those two to replace my alternator then i'm going to do a small peltier farm under my hood and put a dc motor in place of my alternator in my little geo.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> lol shhh don't say that or we'll get banned . lets just say it's reclaiming energy that would normally be lost due to the inefficiency of the internal combustion process. i'm really surprised that the car companies in all their wisdom haven't done this yet (but then again the major car manufacturers have been doing horrible work for the last 39 years (1969 ford mustang, pontiac gto etc. )). they claim 400watts but that's probably with the highest temperature gradient possible. as far as i know peltier plates are two way, you put in x current and get y temperature gradient, you put in y temperature gradient and get x current. If i can get those two to replace my alternator then i'm going to do a small peltier farm under my hood and put a dc motor in place of my alternator in my little geo.



I just did some quick googling and I think you are going to be disappointed
with the amount of power from those units.
From what I've just read, the coolers are optimized (by design) to be a cooler.
The are very poor at making power. One problem is the surface area is too small (sq inches) to suck in 240+ watts of heat.

And there is the problem of melting.. IIRC, there are dire warnings about making sure you have good heat sinks installed before turn on.
Using a propane flame on them works a little, but damage is likely.

Anyways, if these things really worked that good, they would be used in the place of PV solar panels. Using parabolic reflectors or lenses, they could generate power much cheaper than PV solar cells.


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

yeah, i have a lot of heatsinks laying around from playing with computers so i should be able to make something work. either way i have them on the way and i've always wanted to play with them ever since i seen computer cooling kits that had them inside . i was thinking about PV panels. they're black so it looks like they might get a bit warm. if they do and the backside gets fairly warm then that could be used to collect more energy from the same amount of area.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/11/2/31928/0770

Read post #5.. 

Dang! I've to go into the lab tomorrow morning and make some money!
I have not worked for weeks. My work email must be in the 9GB range by now..

Time to crash. Nite..


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

lol okay, ttyl. i found a list of manufacturers that produce peltier plates for electricity generation http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html (why do links make it impossible to edit around them w/o it being underlined?!)


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

thermoelectric generator plates are just to expensive to be practical at this time. when they start mass producing them then it'll come down but it'll cost around $30,000USD to replace your alternator with them right now. looking into how much energy the air conditioning takes from the engine i found a pdf (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...1GK5VTaQSrlTXQDbA&sig2=W69XZ53Y_Bchzeownf5qpQ) from the department of energy that in the introduction leads me to believe that the common air conditioning system in vehicles uses 400w of power and lowering FE by about 1mpg so if that's so then an 800w dc motor could possibly increase FE by 2mpg? if that holds true then this motor (http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/mo-etek-rt.htm) would give just shy of a 15mph increase at 8hp.


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> That's a great point, Matt.
> 
> If the vehicle was available in an RWD/AWD configuration, or if it's already in such a condition, it may be possible to alter it so that the "remote axle" is driven by the electric drive.
> 
> ...


There are AWD models available so it should be no problem getting a rear axle and differential.


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

Tesla said:


> The honda insight can get around 70mpg and it's a parallel hyrbid. (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm). The Mitsubishi Eclipse had AWD package for almost all models. With it's fairly small body and attractive drag coefficient (1992 was Cd.31) it would make a good vehicle to covert to a hybrid as well. The mileage increase you get would really depend on how much the electric motor is assisting the ICE and that would depend greatly on the size of the battery pack and how long you drive. The Eclipse also had a lot of turbo'd models and there's one with 1016hp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0ksflubIoI&feature=related) Zoom Zoom?


Remember that your battery capacity should be reduced if the electric motor is always being run off the alternator or its batteries are being recharged by it. It's easy to forget that the original engine is still there and is running at all times in this configuration. The engine is primarily there to run the extras and charge the battery(s).


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

*Re: DIY Hybrid.. Substitute EV motor for AC compressor ??*



Xringer said:


> That trailer is for long trips. I don't make enough of them to make it worth while.
> 
> I was just out riding my bike in the cool air, thinking about HybrAd methods.
> (Hybrid Adapter).
> ...


Now that's a novel idea and simpler than mine since it works in conjunction with the original engine components. The only great advantage of my concept was to not lose the AC.


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Remember that your battery capacity should be reduced if the electric motor is always being run off the alternator or its batteries are being recharged by it. It's easy to forget that the original engine is still there and is running at all times in this configuration. The engine is primarily there to run the extras and charge the battery(s).


If I were to put a system like this into my metro (which I just might give it a shot) I would leave the assist motor as a completely separate system electrically. Mainly because the whole idea is to be able to introduce energy into the system so that the ICE doesn't have to produce that amount of energy. If you spend energy to assist then use the engine to replace that energy then it's a wasteful energy loop that doesn't really get you anywhere and rich has a point that even if the batteries for the assist are dead you still have a ICE that was doing all the work before the system was put in to get you home. So it's not like you're going to become stranded if you decide to assist the ICE to much. besides, by going more than 12v you can assist a lot more.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: DIY Hybrid.. Substitute EV motor for AC compressor ??*



[email protected] said:


> Now that's a novel idea and simpler than mine since it works in conjunction with the original engine components. The only great advantage of my concept was to not lose the AC.



I don't know how novel it is, but I've own a few cars that came w/o an AC
or it broke and I never had it repaired. Almost all of those cars would have
been a good candidate for the compressor-to-motor mod.

Today, I'm singing a different tune. My CRV only has 33,000 miles on it.
And I'm a cranky old man that sorta likes to have the AC when it's
unbearable outdoors. 
On the other hand, that only happens a few times a year, since I live up here near Beantown..

I'm going to poke around on the web and see if I can find anyone that has done a mild-hybrid conversion. I want to see how they did it.. What hardware they used..


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Have you guys heard of the warP impulse motors? they are fitted on the driveshaft of a vehicle to convert any RWD vehicle to hybrid.

The idea of using a motor/generator thats belt driven off the engine pulley has also been done before. The saturn Vue hybrid uses this method. Doesn't make that much difference, but there is still an improvement over pure ICE according to the EPA estimates.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> If I were to put a system like this into my metro (which I just might give it a shot) I would leave the assist motor as a completely separate system electrically. Mainly because the whole idea is to be able to introduce energy into the system so that the ICE doesn't have to produce that amount of energy. If you spend energy to assist then use the engine to replace that energy then it's a wasteful energy loop that doesn't really get you anywhere and rich has a point that even if the batteries for the assist are dead you still have a ICE that was doing all the work before the system was put in to get you home. So it's not like you're going to become stranded if you decide to assist the ICE to much. besides, by going more than 12v you can assist a lot more.



I'm thinking that a 48V system would work better for the motors I've been thinking about. I want to get the max HP for the least investment. 
And, I would want to get a controller that would work at 96 volts.
(If the cost was not too much higher).

The 12V idea would be for the minimalist user. A way to get a little boost in MPG without doing a lot to the car. 
This _Extra Mild _12V version might be okay for people who mostly used their car very short trips. Their extra capacity battery could be down
to 1/4 full when they get back home and plug in.. 

IMHO, with this mod, there is not much difference in using a motor with re-gen and using your on-board alternator. 

If you are packing 50 extra Amp hours, and you do your short trips 
sucking down 50 amps for a half hour on the road and pull back into
your garage, there is no way your alternator is going to be able to
play catch-up. You will need to plug in to the grid..

BUT, if you are driving across the state with this type of system,
it could still be used to get some good MPG for some parts of the trip..
That should help make up for the extra battery weight you will need to carry. 

Hehe. This is the perfect app for some fancy light weight batteries.. 


Hey! I was just thinking about those guys doing shut-downs to coast and
then doing a Bump-Start.. 
I wonder if the _Extra Mild _could restart your ICE after a coast??


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

david85 said:


> Have you guys heard of the warP impulse motors? they are fitted on the driveshaft of a vehicle to convert any RWD vehicle to hybrid.
> 
> The idea of using a motor/generator thats belt driven off the engine pulley has also been done before. The saturn Vue hybrid uses this method. Doesn't make that much difference, but there is still an improvement over pure ICE according to the EPA estimates.



Yeah, they have some sweet hardware..
http://www.go-ev.com/images/TransWarP_9_ Mktg1.jpg

But, what I'm talking about is using a Saturn Vue style system 
that might be a DIY job at a cost that's about 70-80 percent cheaper
than going to a TransWarp dealer for the full treatment.
(AKA the full wallet drain job)..


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

Take my alternator for example. 12v 50amps max, thats 600watts max that it's producing and at 62% efficient means it's pulling 967watts (0.96kw) or 1.29hp from the engine. So unless the assist motor is contributing over 967watts then the alternator is going to pull 1.29hp from the engines power to try to recharge the pack. that also means that the net contribution of the motor Xwatts is X-967. If you're already planning on plugging it in then it doesn't matter, it'd be best to just not put that load on the alternator/engine and save that 967watts of energy from recirculating in an inredibly inefficient loop. I looked into that vue hybrid and it seems they only use the assist motor on acceleration and to restart the engine, they don't say anything about constant assist which is (like with the insight) where you'd expect to see the most FE increase. About coasting down with the engine off (EOC = Engine Off Coast) is a very effective hypermiling technique. it brought me from around 47mpg to ~55mpg and P&G (pulse and glide) at slow speeds gives astronomical numbers. At every red light i sit there looking around at all the cars running around me with with my hand on the ignition wondering why they all still waste so much fuel then the light turns green i start my car and conservatively accelerate off the line before they even pull the double-cheeseburger out of their faces lol.


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesla said:


> Take my alternator for example. 12v 50amps max, thats 600watts max that it's producing and at 62% efficient means it's pulling 967watts (0.96kw) or 1.29hp from the engine. So unless the assist motor is contributing over 967watts then the alternator is going to pull 1.29hp from the engines power to try to recharge the pack. that also means that the net contribution of the motor Xwatts is X-967. _*If you're already planning on plugging it in then it doesn't matter,*_ it'd be best to just not put that load on the alternator/engine and save that 967watts of energy from recirculating in an inredibly inefficient loop.



I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm looking at the 
compressor-to-motor conversion as a type of _Mild hybrid. _Not a full blown Honda Insight type Full Hybrid. 

I'm going to coin a new term here.. *Weak Hybrid. *
Dang, it's already been taken!
http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-news/6913/First-50-Chery-hybrid-taxis-run-on-Beijing-streets.html


The reasons I think this might be a good idea are:
A. It might be possible to install it cheaply. 
B. It might help the MPG on a lot of older cars.
C. It might be an easy DIY job (compared to a full EV build).
D. It might save 15 or 20 percent at the pump.

And of course, if you owned a*Weak Hybrid*, with limited range, you would expect to plug it into the grid just about every time you got home.


----------



## Tesla (Jun 27, 2008)

yeah we are kinda on different pages but i'd like to argue that the bonus of a weak hybrid is the ability to charge the assist off of the alternator. most people just want to put gas in and go. Over in the EU they fixed diesel engines pollution issue with some chemical (can't remember atm and don't wanna find it again) that there's a separate resevoire for but americans are just retarded and wouldn't think to fill it up. Hense why we don't have them here. With the ability to charge the hybrid system with the alternator, times spent idling at the red light would be put to more good rather than just spinning the torque converter for funs.


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm going to google warP impulse and see what I get. After my original idea that opened this thread I got to thinking about rear wheel drive vehicles and imagined doing exactly what you describe. Then I got thinking that if you could put the same type motor between the crank shaft and the transmission you could greatly reduce the range of rpms necessary for the electric motor.


----------



## Pattersons325 (Oct 11, 2008)

Tesla said:


> If I were to put a system like this into my metro (which I just might give it a shot) I would leave the assist motor as a completely separate system electrically. Mainly because the whole idea is to be able to introduce energy into the system so that the ICE doesn't have to produce that amount of energy. If you spend energy to assist then use the engine to replace that energy then it's a wasteful energy loop that doesn't really get you anywhere and rich has a point that even if the batteries for the assist are dead you still have a ICE that was doing all the work before the system was put in to get you home. So it's not like you're going to become stranded if you decide to assist the ICE to much. besides, by going more than 12v you can assist a lot more.


In order to go above 12 volts I was told I would need an inverter by my friend the mechanic. Is this right or do you have another way in mind?


----------



## Xringer (Oct 12, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> In order to go above 12 volts I was told I would need an inverter by my friend the mechanic. Is this right or do you have another way in mind?


If you tie four 12V batteries in series, they add up to 48V..


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Can I revive this thread with this not so original idea?

Why cant we install a motor inbetween the engine and transmission?

The setup I am talking about is for longtidunal engine+trans setup in RWD applications...honda s2000...

Imagine the electricmotorsport ac motor (50hp 100ftlbs) inbetween your engine and transmission....

If the engine was a small ICE it would be limited by its lack of low-end torque. If you were to put this e-motor inbetween you could have more low end power... And with regen you can use e-motor braking to slow the driveline without putting specific stress on the engine or transmission...

you also get to take full advantage of all the gearing of your ICE transmission, so when cruising at low rpm you would have added passing power...


any thoughts?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been toying with the original idea of this thread for a while now. I wanted to do something similar to my Honda Accord, but I was seeking high performance from the electric motor powering the rear wheels. The problem I had was it was just too freakin heavy with a full ICE powertrain up front, AND a large enough battery pack to add performance in back. I gave up on the idea and decided to build my little EV race rod for performance.

Lately, I have been thinking about a low-power electric drivetrain in back of the Accord again, but a very conservative one this time. My car has a manual transmission, that I love dearly, but I have to plan carefully to not get caught in rush hour traffic; now that I have moved to the city. It would be nice to have the freedom to go where I please, when I choose to.

This got me thinking about an electric motor driving the rear wheels, for low speeds. In bumper-to-bumper, stop-and-go, traffic I could just put the tranmission in neutral, hit a switch enabling the electric motor, and creep for miles. When the pace picked up, I would be able to throw it in gear, shut off the e-motor, and go. Of course this system could also be used around town as well, to boost fuel mileage.

With a setup like this, and some aggressive weight-saving measures, I could come up with a curb weight around what the car is now. That would preserve my current fuel mileage, and handling.

The one thing I haven't figured out yet is a way to keep from revving the ICE when using the electric motor. I wanted to put a pot box on the gas pedal, so that creeping in rush hour would be second nature. I need some kind of electronic "clutch" to disable the ICE throttle when in the electric "traffic" mode. With the right setup you could possibly have programmable throttle modes that combined the right level of ICE and electric for your personal driving style, and the situation at hand.


----------



## Jesse67 (May 12, 2009)

How about this,

Starting with a standard EV conversion, ~40 mile electric range, connect a small ICE to the other end of the electric motor using a clutch. The electric motor is hooked up like normal but with NO clutch to the car's standard tranny. With the ICE disengaged drive it like a regular electric car. Once up to speed in say 4th gear release the ICE clutch, the motor starts, throttle it up and shut off the electric motor. Should be much more efficient than the same motor driving a generator and although it would be slow you could still actually drive it using only the ICE. You would need a lockout for the ICE clutch to keep it disengaged in EV mode and a maybe a hand throttle for the ICE that releases when you hit the brakes or clutch. You can give it a bit of EV juice to help with hills and if your EV is set up for regen, throttle back the ICE, clutch and brake like normal to regain some energy.

You could also put your tranny in neutral engage the ICE and have it charge up your batteries using your regen while you are parked. This would be easiest with an AC system. You could also charge as you go if you have a tailwind or a big hill or if your ICE can manage. 

As far as configuration goes a fuel injected V twin chopper motor, the type that has a clutch but a seperate tranny would be perfect, its even set up to use a toothed belt to drive the electric motor if it can't be hooked inline. Not too sure on efficiency but they have lots of torque, some of those bikes weight 1000 lbs and they are still pretty quick. And best of all if the conversion is an old car, truck or hotrod you can have loud pipes on it and still get that nostalgic rumble! (that said if you can handle this kind of conversion you could probably find a quite muffler if you really wanted...) 

hmm I just may have to try this out!

Jesse


----------



## piersdad (Aug 16, 2008)

have not read all the replies here. however
back in 1978 i built a sports car with a VW (volts wagon) rear transmission.
originall i replaced the motor with an electric but later with a bit of tricky engineering i made a front drive extension to the main drive shaft of the gear box.
this enabled me to put a motor on the front of the gear box and replace the original VW motor on the rear where it originall was.
i had to change the method of gear change and use a mechanical over ride to disengage the petrol motor while in electric only mode.
as i had a mountainous 200 mile trip regularly it was great to be able to use both motors on the hills and use the electric to brake on the down hills charging the batteries that later used in the city i was visiting.
at 70 mph up hill or down it was a dream to drive as gears were very rarely used.

anothr idea is to get a 4wd and cut off the rear drive shaft and place a motor on it


----------

