# Current state of Leafs as donors?



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Here's a link to the Brain Board that I believe to be an end result of the megathread?

https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53

Worth noting is that this seems to limit the Leaf motor to 3,000 RPM, which greatly reduces its value/capability.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Here's the Thunderstruck controller that many on this forum know about, but is a mystery to me:

https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/dilithium-vcu.html


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Tremelune said:


> Here's a link to the Brain Board that I believe to be an end result of the megathread?
> 
> https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53
> 
> Worth noting is that the Leaf motor seems to be limited to 3,000 RPM, which greatly reduces its value/capability.


Where do you get that from?

In the Leaf it has got to run to over 8,000 rpm


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Here's a link to the Brain Board that I believe to be an end result of the megathread?
> 
> https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53
> 
> Worth noting is that the Leaf motor seems to be limited to 3,000 RPM, which greatly reduces its value/capability.





Duncan said:


> Where do you get that from?
> 
> In the Leaf it has got to run to over 8,000 rpm


If you read the linked page, you'll see that this controller isn't able to run the motor properly at high speed, so it - the Brain Board - is unable to run the Leaf motor over 3,000 rpm:


> the synchronous motor control software does not support "field weakening" yet. This means it will only spin teh Leaf motor to 3000rpm. Field weakening is under development.


And the stock pre-2018 Leaf configuration maintains full power to 9800 rpm (where it is still 92% efficient at full load), then falls off rapidly to zero at 10,500 rpm.

I agree that this major functional omission reduces the value of the Brain Board for running the Leaf motor (or any synchronous motor)... to essentially zero, for now.


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## VW-McG (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm keen to see what feedback you get on this thread as it is something I am also very interested in. I have been following this subject for a while both on this forum and elsewhere.

As you hinted at, there are quite a few parties out there working on different approaches to controlling OEM motors, with the Leaf being one of the key candidates.

At a high level they fit into four different approaches, 

One is to retain all of the Leaf components intact and to basically have a leaf running inside a different shell. 
While this may seem like the easy option on the face of it, the different systems within any modern car are very closely interconnected and while you may have all the necessary parts for the drive and battery systems, a missing sensor signal elsewhere in the network (brakes, airbags etc.) could result in the native VCM (Vehicle Control Module) logging an error and shutting down the drive system, or at least going into limp mode.

The second option would be to replicate the CAN messages to inverter to control it. 
This does away with some of the concerns above, but not all of them. The inverter only looks out for a subset of the messages that the native VCM receives and interprets, so the fact that many of them are missing is irrelevant to it. The challenge comes in sending the right CAN messages to the inverter at the right time. This includes both those messages based on specific inputs (throttle, brake etc.) and those messages required to confirm to the inverter that everything else in the car is okay so it doesn't log any errors.

The thunderstruck VCM seems to be the main commercially available version of this and it looks like they have done a lot of the work to reverse engineer the messages the inverter needs to receive. There are also others that have put up bits and pieces on github detailing open source ways of doing this, the most complete seems to be the GEVCU repository from Collin Kidder. There is also a reasonable amount of CAN capture data for the Leaf out there, but I have yet to see a complete mapping of all the messages, so some further investigation would be required if taking on this effort yourself.

The third option, is the idea of replacing the native logic board of the inverter with a programmable version with software that can be configured or edited to control the inverter powerstage appropriately. 
This option retains the major components of the inverter (IGBTs, Capacitors, Current Sensors and the driver and monitoring circuits) but replaces the board that interprets the messages coming in from the VCM. This removes the need to replicate the Leaf can messages and in theory opens up the option of pushing the power stage and motor beyond the limits that Nissan have put in place, should you want to try that.

The fourth option is to do away with the native inverter altogether and replace it with a custom made inverter. This would allow you to choose your own components and could provide further scope for driving more power through to the motor.

options 3 and 4 have gained ground over the last few years, with a lot of the work that happened in the option 4 space (software and pcb design for open source inverters) being carried across into the drop in logic board space. Different architectures exist from 3 or 4 groups including Paul Holmes in the US, Arlin Sansome in Canada, Johannes Huebner in Germany and Damien Maguire in Ireland all featuring. As these guys started to reverse engineer the native inverters some options have appeared allowing these logic boards designed initially for an diy inverters to be hooked into the native inverter powerstage.

This area has been moving pretty quickly recently with the various logic boards being developed coming out with new features as their designers figure things out. For example the inclusion of support for both encoders and resolvers for receiving in data from the motor has appeared on the different open source logic boards over the last six months or so. 

As I understand it, different people in the field have taken slightly different approaches to the design of the logic boards and as a result have different combinations of the features that could be included. As more of these drop in options are built and these different architectures are tried out with various OEM inverters and motors, any features that may be missing are being identified and we are seeing software enhancements or even new board designs coming out to meet these new requirements.

In terms of Leaf specific drop in boards, the two available options if you want to purchase a complete board seem to be the Huebner and Holmes designs. As I understand it, the Holmes board already incorporates Field Weakening into the design, while the Huebner board is working on that functionality.

I am just starting a new conversion based around the Leaf drive unit and I will be doing some experimenting with some of the options above before I get anywhere near to dropping it into a car. I'm happy to feedback on any of my findings is that's of any help.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

So, this was an important post for me. I went back and re-read the list of needed components and realized that in all my attempts to get my motor to turn, I had not hooked up HV connections to the AC compressor or the cabin heaters. After my last attempts, I worked on other stuff and let all of that sit for over a year. 



Wednesday, I hooked those parts up and reconnected the 12V battery and fired up the "car". The first thing that happened was the water pump started turning and squealing. Got that sorted out, put a couple hoses on it and stuck the ends in a bucket of water. Just because.


Next, I dropped it into Drive and it actually dropped into drive. And the throttle works. And it goes into Reverse and Neutral and Park and I was pretty excited. 



I still have 25% charge on batteries that haven't been charged since 2015 so I bought an EVSE that I never bothered with since nothing was working. I had borrowed one a couple years ago but couldn't get ti to charge. I'm hoping that has changed, too, but will have to wait until next Wednesday to find out. 



Time to get serious again.
Bill


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## VW-McG (Apr 4, 2018)

That's an awesome milestone.

I am hoping it won't be too long before I get to that point, though as I only have the following items from the original list, I know I am going to get creative.

Complete motor stack without AC (harness unmodified) including the park lock actuator.
Main ECU (VCM)
IPDM
J1772 inlet
Chademo inlet

Will let you all know how I get on.


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## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Here's a link to the Brain Board that I believe to be an end result of the megathread?
> 
> https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53
> 
> Worth noting is that this seems to limit the Leaf motor to 3,000 RPM, which greatly reduces its value/capability.



Why is this only coming to light now, yes on his website it points out the motor will not run past 3000rpm (yet  )

I went ahead and built Pauls stand alone controller, when I did a RPM check the motor max is still only 6800rpm which is still too slow if you want to use the leaf gearbox, which is what I wanted to use,

Does Pauls drop in board take the motor upto 10000rpm, Can anyone confirm this

6000 rpm with leaf motor/gearbox is only around 60mph, which is a bit of a let down.

Arlo's said his board will go upto 15000rpm with the right components but he doesn't recommend it.
Sounds good but the price doesnt, looks like it could cost upto $3000 is you by all the parts from him and the is still alot of building to do.

looks like field weakening is still in its early stages.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Does someone know if this a RPM limit based on the maximum stator frequency(not the operating frequency) of a particular inverter/controller? I've been looking at some Curtis and Sevcon controllers for synchronous (permanent magnet BLDC) and asynchronous(induction) motors, and they list a maximum stator frequency limit of 300Hz and 500Hz respectively. Is this a limitation because of some component(s) in the inverters/controllers?

For higher pole count motors this must be a RPM limiting factor.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Does someone know if this a RPM limit based on the maximum stator frequency(not the operating frequency) of a particular inverter/controller?


In the case of the openinverter.org Brain Board, this is not due to a maximum frequency, it is due to the lack of functionality in the controller's logic. As explained by openinverter.org:


> the synchronous motor control software does not support "field weakening" yet. This means it will only spin teh Leaf motor to 3000rpm. Field weakening is under development.





zippy500 said:


> looks like field weakening is still in its early stages.


In these amateur and aftermarket controllers, perhaps, but phase shift (normally called "field weakening" or "flux weakening", which I think just makes it more confusing) is a normal synchronous motor controller feature.




electro wrks said:


> I've been looking at some Curtis and Sevcon controllers for synchronous (permanent magnet BLDC) and asynchronous(induction) motors, and they list a maximum stator frequency limit of 300Hz and 500Hz respectively. Is this a limitation because of some component(s) in the inverters/controllers?
> 
> For higher pole count motors this must be a RPM limiting factor.


That makes sense, and may even apply to the Brain Board at some higher motor speed, but I have not seen any information about that.


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Paul informed me that his boards are fine with 10k+ RPM which is more than I need at 120kmh. This is without field weakening which he says is still in development on his system.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CanadaLT28 said:


> Paul informed me that his boards are fine with 10k+ RPM which is more than I need at 120kmh. This is without field weakening which he says is still in development on his system.


So the inverter can put out a frequency which corresponds to 10,000 rpm, but can it drive a Leaf motor at full power and efficiently up to that speed, without field weakening logic? Great if it can, not very useful if not.


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

brian_ said:


> So the inverter can put out a frequency which corresponds to 10,000 rpm, but can it drive a Leaf motor at full power and efficiently up to that speed, without field weakening logic? Great if it can, not very useful if not.



My context was that of using the motor and stock gear reducer. My question to him was whether I would have an issue with his board losing power under those conditions. He did not believe it would be a problem. That said, I did say that I was not going to be driving faster than 130kmh. Others may wish to do a lot more.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CanadaLT28 said:


> My context was that of using the motor and stock gear reducer. My question to him was whether I would have an issue with his board losing power under those conditions. He did not believe it would be a problem. That said, I did say that I was not going to be driving faster than 130kmh. Others may wish to do a lot more.


Even with stock Leaf tires, 130 km/h would be 8900 rpm (presumably less with the LT28's tires)... so while not the motor's top speed, it's fast enough that the ability to maintain power and efficiency is important. I hope it works... but apparently it's not yet tested (at least under a realistic load).


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Even with stock Leaf tires, 130 km/h would be 8900 rpm (presumably less with the LT28's tires)... so while not the motor's top speed, it's fast enough that the ability to maintain power and efficiency is important. I hope it works... but apparently it's not yet tested (at least under a realistic load).



I will also have 2 motors so that may help with the loading issue.


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

I emailed Paul about utilizing the VCM, he said you don't need it to control motor speed/torque.


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

skyguy_6153 said:


> I emailed Paul about utilizing the VCM, he said you don't need it to control motor speed/torque.



What does he mean "found an alternative to the big white connector"? and "Don't need the 2011 2013 board"?


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

I was asking him if I would have to desolder the big white connector off the old Leaf brain board and put it on his. I saw on his website that his custom Leaf board was missing that piece.


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

CanadaLT28 said:


> skyguy_6153 said:
> 
> 
> > I emailed Paul about utilizing the VCM, he said you don't need it to control motor speed/torque.
> ...


That big connector on the far left


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

skyguy_6153 said:


> That big connector on the far left



I have 2 of his boards for 2013 leaf. My truck will use 2 motors. As he is always improving things I thought something might have changed. I only got my second board a few days ago so it would be odd if there was already a change.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Is there a list of what boards exist for the Leaf and what the current state of their capabilities are?


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Is there a list of what boards exist for the Leaf and what the current state of their capabilities are?



Honestly, my experience is that everyone has to go through the same process of investigation, ask a million questions, get right and wrong answers, blow things up and hopefully succeed after that (LOL). Making an EV is not for someone who wants to do it in a weekend. Hell I started investigating 8 years ago, haha.

But to answer your question, Pauls boards (found on his P&S website) are the only ones I know of that are considered nearly plug and play. They don't allow the use of the Leaf VCM rather they get rid of it altogether.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

CanadaLT28 said:


> Making an EV is not for someone who wants to do it in a weekend.


Won't it be cool when it is? I feel like this is the whole point of community forums—sharing info and furthering success. Here's to the future, and whatever small contribution I can make...


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Won't it be cool when it is? I feel like this is the whole point of community forums—sharing info and furthering success. Here's to the future, and whatever small contribution I can make...



Most of us are kinda like mad scientists, in brownian motion, not keeping records coherent enough for others to get concise knowledge from. It would be nice to not have to read through 60 pages of stuff to get to the point where someone says ......well, that didn't work, did it, LOL.


Par for the course but oddly enough, we are getting there.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CanadaLT28 said:


> Making an EV is not for someone who wants to do it in a weekend.





Tremelune said:


> Won't it be cool when it is?


I don't know how cool that will be. Making an engined-driven car is generally not for someone who wants to do it in a weekend, either, except for kit cars assembled exactly as designed, and with a lot of pre-built components. If you want someone else's car design, but assembled by you, then a kit EV would be good - there might even be one currently available.

Most of what is interesting about EV conversion projects is creating something unusual, suited to the builder's own preferences and skills. That will never really be a straightforward one-weekend project.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

We're getting off-topic, but it's a chat I enjoy...

In 2019, the Chevy V8 crate engine is being stuffed into everything with wheels. Some cars are literally bolt-in, some have simple bolt-in kits, and others require horrendous fabrication...It's a spectrum.

I fully expect electric drivetrains and kits to replace the Chevy V8 as the ubiquitous engine swap of choice...There is still a way to go in terms of bang for buck when it comes to electric, but as battery costs continue to fall, I suspect high-rpm, high-voltage electric motors to become standardized and common enough that prices might rival salvage motors with none of the proprietary OEM hassles...

Once that happens, the momentum will only build. There are so many classic cars that are used as infrequent, short-range transport. I think they are the _prime_ candidates for DIY electric swaps. Particularly in California, where smog-exempt cars are getting pricey and rare, and cool cars from the 80s are getting harder and harder to keep on the road. Some people will never part with the rumble of a gas engine, but the traditionally traditional off-road crowd has taken to electrics with enthusiasm, because it's a better drive train for rock crawling, and it's hard to argue with results.

Electrical engineers will polish their prototype kits. Fabricators will start adapting popular electric motors to popular chassis (or to existing Chevy LS motor mounts and transmission adapters). We regular wrenches will install them as kits in finicky old classics, and enjoy a fraction of the maintenance, greater torque, and range that rarely limits the role of the car.

We're still in early-adopter territory, but not for long. It's pretty cool.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Here's a link to the Brain Board that I believe to be an end result of the megathread?
> 
> https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53
> 
> Worth noting is that this seems to limit the Leaf motor to 3,000 RPM, which greatly reduces its value/capability.


if they remove the clocks that limit will go away!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Random thread I stumbled on discussing adapting a Leaf motor to a Warp 9 bolt pattern (and then to a Honda Civic transmission):

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188962&highlight=leaf


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## kablammyman (Mar 16, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Random thread I stumbled on discussing adapting a Leaf motor to a Warp 9 bolt pattern (and then to a Honda Civic transmission):
> 
> https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188962&highlight=leaf


thanks for sharing this!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I think this is the M Paul Holmes board:

https://pandspowerelectronics.ecwid...t-control-board/p/125965637/category=16287307

Post on the state of field weakening for this board:

http://jeffeblack.com/field-weakening-with-the-ps-nissan-leaf-control-board/

I think it's still not 100%, but seems to be working with the 2013+ motors.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Probably old news, but here is a great doc on dismantling a Leaf:

2011 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2011/2011-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2012 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2012/2012-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2013 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2013/2013-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2014 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2014/2014-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2015 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2015/2015-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2016 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2016/2016-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2017 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2017/2017-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2018 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2018/2018-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
2019 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2019/2019-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Probably old news, but here is a great doc on dismantling a Leaf:
> 
> 2011 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2011/2011-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
> 2012 - https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2012/2012-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf
> ...


That's a great guide, but it doesn't tell you how to take off each part, just more or less labels them. This website has the dealer service manuals, which you can download for free. I saved a 2011 copy on Google drive. Only bad thing is each individual section of the manual has to be downloaded separately. https://nicoclub.com/archives/nissan-leaf-factory-service-manuals.html

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

VW-McG said:


> I'm happy to feedback on any of my findings is that's of any help.


I didn't state this explicitly, but this would be profoundly helpful. You're well ahead of me in my research, and the more info we all post, the faster this boat will get moving.

I plan to document my conversion attempt extensively, but I'm just some dude who likes cars figuring it out as I go along.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Randomish question: If I replace/modify/spoof the Nissan inverter (thereby gaining full control over the motor), would I still be able to use the Nissan charger, BMS, AC compressor, etc etc, or would everything freak out when the motor is no longer "detected"?


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## VW-McG (Apr 4, 2018)

Short answer, and the one we all hate is "it depends" 

Longer answer is, of course, a bit more complicated than that. The individual systems are probably not too fussed about the presence or not of the inveter and motor. But they are going to be looking for some sort of signal from the VCM and will probably freak out if they don't see it. If you did have the VCM, it will be the one to freak out at the lack of inverter. 

Some of those systems are probably just waiting for a CAN message from the VCM telling them what to do. (My guess is the AC compressor isn't too fussed as long as it has power and the right message telling it what to do.) 

Other systems will be checking for other components as well. The charger will most likely need some signal from the BMS to know what is happening to the power it is pumping out. And may need more than that as well.

It gets more complicated as each unit may have multiple different systems inside. When I opened up the PDM (Power Delivery Module) which contains the charging circuits and DC to DC converter to take a look. It was interesting to see how different the Chademo charging systems was when compared to the AC charging. These are going to have different needs. 

You can see it after i get the lid off the charger:
https://youtu.be/vo2shfLokCI

I think all these systems will need to be spoofed in some way, but the level of complexity required to do that will vary. 

Getting the charger working in isolation is on my to do list, but may happen after i have the inverter and motor up and running, and in a car.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well. I've pretty much torn down my 2014 Leaf and I'm taking stock of what I've pulled out to make sure I have everything I'll need. I'm a bit confused on a few items, and it's proving difficult to find telltale photos or information. My interior is empty at this point, so I can't identify anything easily by location. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, pls halp. Specifically:



> Brake pedal switches (not the brake pot)
> Accelerator HEPA
> Start button and encoder
> Two key sensors (both dash area, one above hvac and one in centre console)
> ...


- Which brake pedal switch? I'm only aware of the large one on the side that seems to measure pedal rotation.

- What is a HEPA? You mean the accelerator mount and pedal itself?

- What is a start button "encoder"? Is that the little black NATS amplifier that's attached to the button?

- Any photos of the key sensors? I can't find any info on these things.

- What's the key security module? I don't think I saw anything welded, but my car is a 2013+. Any photos available?

- I assume the "lower binnacle" is the main dashboard gauge cluster?


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Well. I've pretty much torn down my 2014 Leaf and I'm taking stock of what I've pulled out to make sure I have everything I'll need. I'm a bit confused on a few items, and it's proving difficult to find telltale photos or information. My interior is empty at this point, so I can't identify anything easily by location. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, pls halp. Specifically:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On the brake bracket itself (which also has the throttle pedal) is 2 switches, one brown and one black (or grey) which are for tail lighting mostly)


HEPA is probably the cabin pollin filter.


I think the start button encoder is the small black box as you say (I could be wrong)


Don't know about the other key stuff


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> - Any photos of the key sensors? I can't find any info on these things.
> 
> - What's the key security module? I don't think I saw anything welded, but my car is a 2013+. Any photos available?


Modern keys (even in basic vehicles without a keyless entry and/or ignition) have an RFID-type transponder system in them for the security system often called an immobilizer. There is a normally a radio transceiver with an antenna looping around the ignition lock cylinder to query the key. Vehicles with keyless ignition use a transceiver somewhere in the dash, to query the transponder in the fob. The keyless ignition antenna, immobilizer transceiver/antenna, and control module to read them and authorize ignition are all likely separate boxes; I found all of them in a online Nissan body electrical parts listing, which is likely right for your Leaf and may be helpful.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> - What is a HEPA? You mean the accelerator mount and pedal itself?


"Accelerator HEPA" presumably means the Hall Effect Pedal Assembly for the accelerator.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Leaf teardown is pretty much complete, so now it's time to see if I can get this thing running on a bench.

The plan is to get charging and the motor working in my "workshop" before removing components, opening the wiring harness, and removing all unnecessary items. I'm using all Leaf components from the same car. If anyone's curious, I weighed the wiring harness:

- Engine bay section is 24lb.
- Dashboard section is 15lb.
- Rear section is 12lb.

The first question I have is: How wired up do I need the batteries to be to test charging and motor spin? Can I just wire up a 1/4 pack without causing issues? If I want the full pack connected, I'm going to have to do some rewiring (which I'll have to do anyway) to take the place of the bus bars which won't quite fit the way the batteries sit.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

you'll need to full pack wired as if it was in a leaf if you are using standard ECUs.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Does anyone know the maximum gauge of wire used in the Leaf? Or the max amps that are pulled from the batteries under max load?

I need to buy some wire, and I'm not sure how thick I need to go. It's tough to measure, since I don't know how thick the insulation is...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I am not off to a great start of getting this thing working on a bench.

1) I lost the key. I just...don't know where it is. I'm not sure there's any way to fix that problem without...finding the key. It got lost in the fray.

2) I can't get the system to even "boot" to the point where it's _looking_ for a key. When I hook the battery up, a few things whir. When I click the power button, there is the *click* of a relay which then clicks off again in a few seconds. Nothing lights up. Gauges are dead. OBD port seems unpowered. How do I even _begin_ to troubleshoot this...?

I tried to connect as much stuff as I could, but there are definitely some connectors hanging. I don't know which ones are important and which ones aren't. I'm going back through photos, but some stuff was disconnected haphazardly.

I do not have the battery pack fully connected, but I feel like the gauges should still light up without any HV current...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

dedlast said:


> I had not hooked up HV connections to the AC compressor or the cabin heaters....Wednesday, I hooked those parts up and reconnected the 12V battery and fired up the "car"...I dropped it into Drive and it actually dropped into drive. And the throttle works. And it goes into Reverse and Neutral and Park and I was pretty excited.


Can you confirm that this was your issue? I was not expecting to need the HVAC system to drive the motor...I've never seen it mentioned as a requirement elsewhere. I won't have room for the whole HVAC box in my project...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

See my reply in your other post. I don't think you need the whole HVAC system, just the heater cores. I would call them by their real name but I can't think of it at the moment. 



I'm pretty sure you don't need the battery pack hooked up to boot the controls up. I'm also sure there are cases where that is a step in the repair manual but they say to do it only when called for because it could damage something. I thought that might have been my problem at first, but then I found that list again.


It sucks about the key. I'm don't think the car will do anything useful without it. One of the fail-safes is to hold the key right next to the power button if the fob's battery is dead. I wonder if there is way to spoof the signal it gets by wiring some pin to another pin or putting a switch in a circuit somewhere. When I have more time I may look into that. We're getting ready to move so my time in the garage is pretty limited and I'm going to have to make sure not to misplace anything. Fortunately, it's only a five mile move, not across country or anything like that.


B


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm finding that even some of the complicated connectors can fit in various components, suggesting that I just don't have everything hooked up right. I noticed that my lower gauge cluster was connected to wires that seemed like they're for the HVAC/navigation console...I swapped them, and nothing improved, but just the fact that I can physically interchange them is alarming...I'm not sure why I expected anything different.

I don't have the brake/throttle pedal assembly, just the two brake pedal switches...The brake stuff from the engine bay is gone, too...I don't think this is the culprit.

I go in search of photos of all these connectors and the devices they connect to...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

This thread has some great info on using a complete Leaf as a donor:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=805713

I've also been scrutinizing this video, which has some great visuals for a "minimal" setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCOi19S71W4

My current approach for _my_ project is to start removing all but the known necessary components, in the hopes that I've mis-wired something nonessential that is getting in the way. It may also help visually to see the layout with less stuff in the way...Without the key, I'm dead in the water, but I'm gonna try and exhaust the full-donor approach until I give up on the key and move on to an aftermarket approach for control and BMS.

Shot from the '67 bus thread of minimal components:


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Progress! The system boots and asks for a key.

I went around and disconnected everything not on the "minimal" list and in the process noticed a few mis-wires (in my case, I reversed the white "footwell" cluster of gauges—one side has two and the other has four). The main culprit was even more obvious...I just hadn't had this main junction connected (between the engine bay and the interior):


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh, yeah, that one. That connector got me for a short time, too. I was pretty bummed until I realized what I had(n't) done.


B


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Stumbled on a thread detailing certain model year changes:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26662

The summary is more or less to avoid Leafs built before April 2013, and avoid the 30kW pack.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, this may have taken a turn here, as I just can't find the key. If it turns up, cool. If not, I'll hold onto these components until my next conversion (should I ever finish my _first_ conversion). If you know anyone with the Nissan Consult III Plus computer that can reprogram everything...lemme know...

It looks like I'll be moving to the aftermarket. It would be nice to leverage as much Leaf stuff as I can, as it seems to be of good quality...I just don't know how to interface with it—writing a CAN controller does not entice me.

It looks like I'll need to find a solution for:

1) Controller for the inverter or another inverter board.

2) Charger for traction batteries in a different configuration.

3) Battery monitoring system. I need fire-and-forget foolproofness.

4) DC-DC converter.

5) HVAC, though I had low hopes of repurposing the Leaf stuff.

It's looking like the Thunderstruck VCU is the most plug-and-play option available so far for getting the motor to spin. I think I'll be able to use the Leaf throttle as a controller input.

There is also the inverter board from Johannes Hübner at https://openinverter.org/ though I don't see too many compelling reasons to go this route, as it involves a bit more assembly and research, perhaps. I definitely don't need more power out of the Leaf motor for my project. The main benefit appears to be the ability to charge (below 5kW) using the inverter instead of a stand-alone system...which is actually pretty cool.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I was hoping to ditch half the Leaf battery pack (since I'm going the aftermarket route) while maintaining the full 360-384v (and therefore the full 10k rpm from the motor), but it seems I'd have to take the modules apart to get there? I'm not sure I want to go that route.

The full pack is 48 modules, 192 cells, setup as 96s2p. Each module is 2s2p, 7.5-8v. I'm not sure I see a way to rewire it externally to keep the voltage but reduce the size of the pack.

I don't need full power or full range, but I do need full rotational speed if I'm going to get up to highway speeds without a gearbox...


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Well, this may have taken a turn here, as I just can't find the key. If it turns up, cool. If not, I'll hold onto these components until my next conversion (should I ever finish my _first_ conversion). If you know anyone with the Nissan Consult III Plus computer that can reprogram everything...lemme know...
> 
> It looks like I'll be moving to the aftermarket. It would be nice to leverage as much Leaf stuff as I can, as it seems to be of good quality...I just don't know how to interface with it—writing a CAN controller does not entice me.
> 
> ...



Well, Pauls board is pretty easy to use which is why I have a couple of them. I think it is the most developed of the plug in boards. I am using the leaf throttle assembly but I put a Subaru peddle on it because both hall sensors output the same signal and I have one for each motor.


As for the rest of it, I have't found a solution yet. I'm using Volt batteries so I may go a different way than you. I too don't want to be be concerned with programming much. I'd rather have a plug n play component.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

CanadaLT28 said:


> Well, Pauls board is pretty to use which is why I have a couple of them.


Missing a key adjective, here...

Doesn't it involve soldering components sourced from elsewhere to the board? I'm finding it tricky to find information on this. I recognize that it's just some person in their workshop, but a working web page would go a long way...Most of the threads/info I'm finding are from years ago.

I'm not married to anything at this point...I just want to get moving.


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## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Missing a key adjective, here...
> 
> Doesn't it involve soldering components sourced from elsewhere to the board? I'm finding it tricky to find information on this. I recognize that it's just some person in their workshop, but a working web page would go a long way...Most of the threads/info I'm finding are from years ago.
> 
> I'm not married to anything at this point...I just want to get moving.



Nope, no soldering needed. I bought the fully populated and tested boards. They have some spade connectors and a terminal strip. You have to buy the mate for the strip and crimp the wires on the pins but that is it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I was hoping to ditch half the Leaf battery pack (since I'm going the aftermarket route) while maintaining the full 360-384v (and therefore the full 10k rpm from the motor), but it seems I'd have to take the modules apart to get there? I'm not sure I want to go that route.
> 
> The full pack is 48 modules, 192 cells, setup as 96s2p. Each module is 2s2p, 7.5-8v. I'm not sure I see a way to rewire it externally to keep the voltage but reduce the size of the pack.


Just as with most (probably all) current EV packs, the parallel connection is at the lowest level; so as you have realized, there is no way to reconfigure for full voltage from half of the modules without opening them. Even opened up, internal connections are probably welded, so they'll be difficult to change... and the 4S module would have only one of the three intermediate BMS tap terminals required.

Maybe a pack from a plug-in hybrid would be an easier choice.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I spoke with the Thunderstruck folk, and they seemed to indicate that their board would allow for full power (and more) and max RPM of the Leaf motor, so I'm probably going that way as a backup...

_But_, I had a locksmith come by and reprogram a new key through the OBD port, so I now I just need to figure out...everything else about the Leaf...There seems to be some "main" antennae I missed, because I can only get the car to "boot" by putting the key right up to the start button ring.

I can't put it in gear, and the motor doesn't turn, and LeafSpy does not yet work, but...a modicum of progress:


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I spoke with the Thunderstruck folk, and they seemed to indicate that their board would allow for full power (and more) and max RPM of the Leaf motor, so I'm probably going that way as a backup...


What board would this be? You had mentioned the Thunderstruck VCU (which would allow full power because it doesn't do inverter or motor control at all - it's just a CAN messaging device), but I don't see a Leaf controller board on their web site.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

brian_ said:


> What board would this be? You had mentioned the Thunderstruck VCU (which would allow full power because it doesn't do inverter or motor control at all - it's just a CAN messaging device), but I don't see a Leaf controller board on their web site.


This is correct—I would use the Leaf inverter with the Thunderstruck VCU(?).

Is there a good resource somewhere that will help explain the behavior of motors when they're "under-volted"? The Leaf motor/battery are overpowered for my needs by probably 2x. With this combo, I'm more concerned with top motor speed than I am about torque/range.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Is there a good resource somewhere that will help explain the behavior of motors when they're "under-volted"? The Leaf motor/battery are overpowered for my needs by probably 2x. With this combo, I'm more concerned with top motor speed than I am about torque/range.


There's probably something good for the Leaf, but what I could find quickly is for the BorgWarner HVH 250-90, also a modern PM motor of roughly similar size and rotor technology:
HVH250-090 Electric Motor - Product Sheet
There are two winding options for these HVH motors; the "SOM" version is comparable to the Leaf motor in operating speed range (although presumably intended to be suitable for higher voltages, as I haven't heard of Nissan running a Leaf motor over 400 volts).

If you look at the torque or power curves, you can see that lower available voltage means that the transition from constant torque (limited by the maximum allowable motor current) to voltage-limited performance occurs at lower speed with less available voltage, and the performance follows a lower curve beyond that, but the motor still runs effectively. Above the transition from constant torque, the maximum power at a given speed is roughly proportional to the available voltage.


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## zippy500 (Apr 3, 2017)

what I understand from the VCU is you have full control over it with current and power, so you depower it from the settings


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

zippy500 said:


> what I understand from the VCU is you have full control over it with current and power, so you depower it from the settings


Sure, the VCU should be configurable to scale full accelerator input to any fraction of the Leaf's power or torque range.

My understanding was that the concern was how the Leaf components would handle not having full voltage available. My response was about how the motor itself could run at less than the full rated voltage; that's just a question of whether or not the peak power would be high enough (across the speed range), because the motor runs at less than full battery voltage almost all of the time anyway. The inverter power section might not care at all about a lower supply voltage. The controller section could have two issues with low supply (battery) voltage:

low voltage derived from battery voltage might not work properly
the control logic might consider the low voltage at least an error condition (causing a trouble code), and possibly a fatal problem (preventing operation)


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I can't get rid of the the "I-Key system fault" and "When parked apply parking brake" messages...I'm hoping someone who knows Leafs better will chime in, but nothing so far:

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29992

None of the pre-charge relays are audibly clicking...I'm at the point where I need to make some progress for sanity, so I'm looking more deeply into aftermarket bits...

I think the first order of business is ensuring I can charge the battery pack. To that end, I'd love to use the Leaf BMS and charger, if possible. I see a lot of references to the CAN BUS stuff having been "hacked", but I'm really looking for a product that would plug into these systems to get them working.

My kingdom for an exhaustive list of necessary components _and photos of their connectors_...


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> I can't get rid of the the "I-Key system fault" and "When parked apply parking brake" messages...I'm hoping someone who knows Leafs better will chime in, but nothing so far:
> 
> https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29992
> 
> ...



During my initial bench test (When everthing still worked) The I-Key system fault was persistant but I was still able to spin the motor. After installing the system into the car, I encountered the same "When parked apply parking brake" message. Luckily Mike (Skooler) chimed into one of the other leaf posts and recommeneded that I re-install and cheat the parking brake mechanism. Here is a video of Mike and one of his mates doing just that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfnK_TIaCqA

Now, the contactors click and a start up sequence is attempted. Unfortunately for me, they click off again and there is no power. I have some outside, likely self induced failures going on. But your parking brake issue seems pretty cut and dry - correctable via the "Skooler method" just made that up. = )
Hope this helps you get the motor spinning! I have not had any success recently, but that is mosty due to lack of time/effort. Best of luck! -Danny


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh, right. That thing. I did something similar with a couple pieces of steel that I had laying around. As long as you can keep the parking brake mechanism from just spinning around, that parking brake error should go away. 



I may be having the same I-key problem but it's been awhile since I've had time to fire up the system.


Bill


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Very interesting. What exactly am I looking at here? I believe I still have the park-lock installed on my motor...They just twist it with a socket after removing it from the motor?

Am I trying to fake that it's engaged (braked) or disengaged (free)?? Any more info about this thing?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Mm, I think I understand...The parking brake actuator is in the cable-operated thing at the rear of the car:










Alas, I no longer have one. Is there a way to fool it electrically?


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Unfortunately, I can't help you with this one. My wreck was a 2015 and it had a regular foot pedal parking brake (step on to set, step on again to release) with the Park mechanism included in the transaxle. It looked like what Skooler was working with.


Bill


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Interesting. Mine is a 2014 that also has the foot-brake. I guess there is a discrepancy here from year-to-year...


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> Interesting. Mine is a 2014 that also has the foot-brake. I guess there is a discrepancy here from year-to-year...


Just to verify, your leaf gearbox is still installed w/ the parking pawl mechanism still installed on top? This is the triangular(ish) black piece that mounts to the Leaf gearbox. In the video I linked before, this component is what they are "cheating" with the breaker bar. If still installed and plugged into the gearbox,then this is not your problem. But if this was separated or disconnected, allowing the parking pawl sensor to spin freely can cause the same error message. Atleast, this is what the issue with mine.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I see. This is what I'm working with:


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> I see. This is what I'm working with:


Can't see the attachment?


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Couldn't you just flash the EEPROM on the Thunderstruck VCM or a custom one for more or less power? 

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I could go aftermarket VCU, but then I'd also need to figure out a charger and BMS, which puts a few thousand bucks on the cost of the project, unless I want to research the Leaf CAN BUS and get an Arduino or some such programmed and what not...

For my particular project, I'd like to maintain the ~400V system to ensure I can get the Leaf motor to 10k RPM, and thus get the car I'm driving to highway speeds. It seems like most of the aftermarket stuff is geared towards much lower voltages.

It's in the cards, and I'm just about to give up faking the whole Leaf system...It's just not quite clear what else I'll need to buy and configure if I do.


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I could go aftermarket VCU, but then I'd also need to figure out a charger and BMS, which puts a few thousand bucks on the cost of the project, unless I want to research the Leaf CAN BUS and get an Arduino or some such programmed and what not...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Take a look this link, and also look up some videos on Damien Maguire. 
http://productions.8dromeda.net/c55-leaf-inverter-protocol.html

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

This thread gets into detail about the BMS and CAN bus to use it:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1043643


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> This thread gets into detail about the BMS and CAN bus to use it:
> 
> https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1043643


Cool, thanks! Thinking I'll go with the Leaf BMS CAN controlled over the Orion BMS, can definitely save some serious money! I'm also progressing a bit on my Open source VCU board I bought from Damien Maguire (First SMD soldering, looks pretty crappy, but I just need it to work, not look pretty). Just a matter of waiting for components to arrive. 

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Stumbled on a codification of the Leaf CAN bus protocol spreadsheet that's been floating around:

https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Adapter plates for the bare motor:

https://blackfamily-my.sharepoint.c...USVpNaG9vckY2bTdjR3JBP3J0aW1lPVI4ZnNfRkNjMTBn

From this page:

http://jeffeblack.com/nissan-leaf-em57-motor-adapter-plate/

Pulled from this post:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1051057&postcount=54


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Any adapter plates designs for the EM61 Leaf motor? 

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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