# Drag Week



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Not sure how many know about this event, its a week long race that drag racers must race there cars 5 days at 5 tracks. Cars must be driven to each track with no trailering, best average et over the week wins there class.(http://blogs.hotrod.com/day-one-race-action-from-drag-week-2014-136407.html) 

I would like to see a discussion on what it would take to be the first Ev to complete and not make a fool of Ev's(ie slower the 11 sec et). Would love to say I'm building a car for this but is just unrealistic without major sponsors.

My build with a foxbody mustang due to all the parts to make it light and hook up. For drivetrain a pair of 11in motors, zilla controllers, some kind of linco trans and 2 race packs and 2 range packs to be pulled in a very light trailer so I can stop and swap out packs( about 300 miles between tracks).


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

If any company's would like to suport I am open to build a car for this and other events.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I thought at least John would find this intriguing.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

-One Shiva. 
-Two K11 Alpha or WarP11HV. 
-Shorty glide or some other 2-3 speed trans 
-Just enough pack in the car to provide the Juice you need for your runs. 
-Trailer with lots of battery, the charger, genset, and supplies. 

The trailer is the key. You could either carry enough battery to make the trip or have the genset running enough to keep you topped up enough to make the trip. Connect the trailer and have that supplementing your in car pack through a cable for the road trip portions and drop the trailer for the drag runs. 

Personally I would use a second generation RX7 because I know they can run 11's consistently and cheaply with proper motivation. Maybe an AWD car would be a good option to take advantage of the electric drivetrain torque with a more street friendly suspension.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

The rules state you cannot have any kind of power source running from the trailer to the car. You can be topping off the spare packs while driving but would have to stop and swap packs.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Interesting. Would they rule out a genset on the car that was removed for the drags? Would that put you in a hybrid class?


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Interesting. Would they rule out a genset on the car that was removed for the drags? Would that put you in a hybrid class?


You can do that, there is no hybrid class not even a ev class. We would have to run unlimited.

Larry Larson just ran a 6.17 after a 1,000 mile road trip, that's a new world recored for a street car.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I've been thinking about this for a couple of years, it would certainly be a fun challenge. Reliability is key and it does look the use of an on-board genset would be allowed but it would be easy to verify.

"Trailers may not contain any components that contribute to cooling, charging, oiling, or fueling the competition vehicle while the trailer is being towed."

A lightweight vehicle with 11" motor (or two 9"'s?) with Lenco or Gear Vendor unit(s) could do the job. Metric's car would work well, lol.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

But that's on the trailer, says nothing about on the car. A few guys had to use a gen to keep there cars running down the road. Think as long as it stays on or in the car you would be good.

Maybe a for ranger and replace the hole body with a fiberglass one, have lots of room in the bed for batts and a genset.


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

It's an interesting idea. I would not want to show up and run 11's though.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

TerryH said:


> It's an interesting idea. I would not want to show up and run 11's though.


I would want to be in the 9s, think that would be a good showing for ev's


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

Dustin_mud said:


> I would want to be in the 9s, think that would be a good showing for ev's


Agree. Sub 10 second passes would be a must if any EV would garner respect from the other racers. We went through it with our dragster. When we were running 8's we were just some goof balls with a battery powered dragster. More novelty than anything. When we started putting it in the 6's the "regular" racers had no choice but to take notice when the EV dragster was quicker than a huge percentage of the ICE cars. Now many of the visitors to our pit are other racers trying to get their head around how the cart does what it does.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with 11's! The vast majority of cars are actually pretty "slow", in that range. Only the extreme guys get the publicity.

http://www.hotrod.com/dragweek/drag_week_2014_race_results_day_6/

In my mind this is a lot different than a regular drag race. You have to actually drive between tracks. It's a whole different kettle of fish and those who have done it *get* it. 

Of course, 9's would be even better and with an electric drivetrain a lot more manageable.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Couldn't you just keep the power way down on say John's car and it would be as reliable as any other ev, then just crank up the juice at the track? 

Seems to me a ev would be very reliable, wouldn't have to worry about overheating or drive ability from track to track.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I would think an EV would be the most reliable performance-capable vehicle there. No radical camshafts, honking exhausts to fool with, turning turbos down, etc. etc.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

I'm convinced, someone hook me up with some badass packs and get this party stated! Lol


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

Dustin_mud said:


> Couldn't you just keep the power way down on say John's car and it would be as reliable as any other ev, then just crank up the juice at the track?
> 
> Seems to me a ev would be very reliable, wouldn't have to worry about overheating or drive ability from track to track.


Don't think there would be nearly enough capacity in the pack even if it were turned way down. Ton of power in John's packs but not much range. I'd imagine it would be necessary to run a more "normal" pack for the street portion and use the "drag" pack for the racing.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That's exactly what I ment, have a range pack and swap in the drag pack at the track.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

My current pack, which I call a deminimus pack, is for drag racing only.
However, if were allowed to take of the 28.5"X14" hoosiers and the frontrunner Moroso's and put on some tiny eco-tire set. My pack is technically 12kWH pack.

If I were to go back to the DMV inspectors and show them my new manual wiper blade mechanism from a golf cart window, I should pass inspection and be street legal, since I have all the appropriate safety equipment required.

It should be able to creep along on the absolute lowest setting and maybe get 300watthours per mile. So you might say the pack has a 40 miles range, but we know I don't want to hurt it so Maybe 20 miles so as not to push it.

How far would I have drive from to prove that my car is a street car?


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

It's about 300+- each day, normally they drive 1,000 miles total. That's why I say you need two packs, pull a light trailer behind the car with a generator charging a spare pack. And yes you can change out your tires for the road but you have to carry everything in your car or the trailer your car is pulling, no support vehicles.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing.

Oh and this is all 1/4 mile, they don't run 1/8th


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Think a type 3 vw notchback with a single 11hv and Zilla 2k would be killer. Get the weight down to the low 2000s, it's just having the room for your packs.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I think "Lemon Juice" would be great: built-in generator space, might not need a trailer. Unload at the track, air-up and you're good to go.

John, our premise is that an onboard generator would feed the motor(s) keeping the pack relatively unmolested. It wouldn't be that hard to swap out something else, even a bunch of 12V deep-cycle marine batteries. You wouldn't need much capacity. A basic on/off control circuit would work. I bet you could rent a 15-20kw generator somewhere too.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

So you all think you can make a electric go 8.5 seconds in a 1/4 mile an then drive to store an back to a track 20 miles away ? Try the WORLDS FASTEST STREETCAR first . If you use my car at least they will be on your side an root for you . I'll buy the car . For real , I'll buy the car !!


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

How about a motorcycle engine that quick release mounts in the engine bay? It could be belt or chain driven after the clutch to a large pulley or sprocket mounted on the front shaft of the electric motor. Use battery power to get up to speed and then release the clutch to couple the motorcycle engine to the e motor for cruising. The whole thing could fit on top of the motors like a supercharger sticking out of the hood. You would have the reliability of a factory motorcycle engine and it should have more than enough power for pushing a car from a roll. 

Same could be done with a pickup truck. Go through the bed with the belt to the driveshaft.

Seems like mechanically coupling a range extender would have some advantages over a massive genset. The advantages being price size and weight.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

epyon said:


> So you all think you can make a electric go 8.5 seconds in a 1/4 mile an then drive to store an back to a track 20 miles away ?


What's the budget?


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

John Metric's miata is about that fast and I thought he said it cost about $30k-40k to build. My coworker's ICE camaro is that fast and cost close to $100k to build. Most reliable cars that go 8.5 cost a minimum of $50k. So the way i see it John's miata has another $50k of wiggle room for range extension devices to compete with similar ICE cars. Really priced pretty fair for competition at that speed. 

Really just need to figure out that range extension device that complies with dragweek rules and someone can represent the Ev community.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

DanGT86 said:


> John Metric's miata is about that fast and I thought he said it cost about $30k-40k to build. My coworker's ICE camaro is that fast and cost close to $100k to build. Most reliable cars that go 8.5 cost a minimum of $50k. So the way i see it John's miata has another $50k of wiggle room for range extension devices to compete with similar ICE cars. Really priced pretty fair for competition at that speed.
> 
> Really just need to figure out that range extension device that complies with dragweek rules and someone can represent the Ev community.


A range extender is probably not the way to go. Any genset that could maintain freeway speeds is going to be a couple of hundred pounds, and then you still have to have a big enough pack to handle the power demands of the drag. Might as well use that weight for cells and give yourself a decent range.

How I would probably try to do it is to use higher energy density cells that still have decent C rates (though not stratospheric like John's cells) so they still have respectable power density but can make for a pack that can travel a long distance. My favorite cell is the Samsung INR18650-25R. It can do peaks over 40A, or 16C. With sag, they can output 130 Watts each, giving a power density of 2.8kW/kg. That's less than a third of the power density of John's 100C cells. On the other hand, at 200Wh/kg, they are almost twice as energy dense, so you would have a chance to make a pack that could travel long distances for just a few hundred pounds.

If I were going to attempt this, I would go with:

FFR Project 818
192S30P Samsung INR18650-25R
4xAMR-115 IPM motors
4xRMS PM150DZ controllers.

With a 570 pound pack, you wouldn't be doing 8s. But with almost 1000hp and AWD, you wouldn't be doing 11s either. And with a 150+ mile range! you could travel between races with just one fast charge on the road.

Cost: $200K+ . Custom gear reductions ain't cheap.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

DanGT86 said:


> How about a motorcycle engine that quick release mounts in the engine bay? It could be belt or chain driven after the clutch to a large pulley or sprocket mounted on the front shaft of the electric motor. Use battery power to get up to speed and then release the clutch to couple the motorcycle engine to the e motor for cruising. The whole thing could fit on top of the motors like a supercharger sticking out of the hood. You would have the reliability of a factory motorcycle engine and it should have more than enough power for pushing a car from a roll.
> 
> Same could be done with a pickup truck. Go through the bed with the belt to the driveshaft.
> 
> Seems like mechanically coupling a range extender would have some advantages over a massive genset. The advantages being price size and weight.


This isn't a bad idea, also remember you have time at the track to remove and install a race pack. Also can pull a small trailer with spare packs. With the right sponsors this could be done.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I think so too. The longest trip between tracks has been about 400 miles. They also plan the route to be difficult. Its not just smooth highway miles. It would be sad to need gas to power your EV but at present i just don't think the energy density exists to do it on batts. Maybe if you had the freedom to plan your own route it could be done but even the you would need something like the 85kwh tesla battery.

I do feel like anyone with the skills and or funding to run 8-9sec passes would have skills to build a mechanical range extender from existing automotive hardware.

Bmw I3 range extender optional motor is simple and modular without having to redesign the whole vehicle to make it a hybrid. That is the inspiration for my thinking.

I wish i had the funding. I would love to try it. Iv'e got free access to a machine shop but time and money are both limited.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

The simplest "range extender" would be a "pusher trailer" - the front end of something like a diesel golf turned into a trailer
That would easily give the range

A pure BEV solution would be more expensive but I don't see why 400miles of batteries should not be mounted on a trailer
400 x 400whrs/mile = 160Kwrs = 1600kg - doable just!
The issue would be recharging - you would need a 20Kw charger to recharge in 8 hours


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Hot rod's rules for drag week say the trailer cant be the power source. No pushers, and no fuel supply lines can run from trailer to car. They are trying to avoid people running tiny fuel cells to save weight and then plumbing to the trailer. They have even been talking about eliminating the trailers completely from the event.

Thats not to say you couldn't stop and switch out packs from the trailer. Gas guys can trailer gas cans.

Unfortunately these rules hurt the EV more than the Gas cars. Dino juice is just too energy dense compared to our best batteries.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Then just have a generator in the back of the car/passenger seat that can be easily taken out with a engine hoist/trailer mounted crane.

Completely thinking out of the box now; two packs, one in the car one on the trailer. But the trailer has a generator charging the second pack while you drive.

The biggest pain in the ass will be the rolling resistance for the tires, so i would suggest swapping them too when at the dragstrip.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Also you can show up at the track and make a hit maybe two and then get on the road. That way you have all day and night to make it to the next track.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Bring this back from the dead. Drag Week 2015 is going on now, as we speak they are on the 200 mile drive to the next track. If you want to watch a live stream tomorrow go to the Motor Trend channel on YouTube. 

Wish I had the money to build the first ev to run this.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Watched them on tv monday when they were at my local track. Should have run over there to see it in person but i kept hesitating and it kept getting later. 

Did see Lutz run over 250mph!! Thats insane for a car thats going to make the whole journey! People around here have been complaining about the track prep over there lately. Will be interresting to hear what the really fast guys have to say about it.

I was thinking the same thing wondering when we will see an EV make the trip. Would be awesome.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Sadly lutz didn't make it to the next track, was fighting fuel pump and few other problems. Bailey made it in his Promod and laid down a 6.35 today.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

What is the cost of building a pack capable of 1,000+ Battery horsepower?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Dustin_mud said:


> What is the cost of building a pack capable of 1,000+ Battery horsepower?


It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you ONLY care about peak power capabilities, you probably can't do that much cheaper than John Metric's RC cells, which will put you back about 12 grand for a 1000 hp pack.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Dustin_mud said:


> What is the cost of building a pack capable of 1,000+ Battery horsepower?


I concur with Hollie Maea in that John Metrics Amphaulic solution is the easiest.

http://ampahaulic.com/

You can do it all yourself for a little less money if you go with 3S 3AH RC packs that have adequate C rate and at least 10 gauge wire. The problems are you have a lot more pieces to connect up and convincing the people that sell batteries to take you seriously seems to be a problem.

The Metric packs can do about 10 HP per 6S 4.5 AH module. So in theory to get 1000 HP you would need at least 100 packs. If you were to do a 4P arrangement then you have 25 in series for a nominal voltage of 555. Since that is too high for existing controllers if you assume a peak voltage fresh off the charger of 400 volts that means 15 bricks in series at most (15*6*4.2=378 volts.) To exceed 1000 HP would require 105 packs when paralleling by 7. A 7P pack could be loaded for the duration of a drag race to 3150 amps. If you want to be able to load to 4000 amps you need to go to at least 9P which means 135 packs. With that you could load to 4050 amps at a sag voltage of around 270 for a motor input power of 1093500 watts (1466 HP.) At those power levels you would be lucky to get 70% out of the motor(s) and 85% of that through the transmission/differential so wheel HP would be around 872 HP. That is probably a little low ball but better to be conservative.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Now if I can just just get someone to float the bill.


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## 89jyturbo (Nov 23, 2015)

Cool to see this thread here. I actually came across this forum looking for ideas to build a hybrid vehicle for Drag Week. I am a complete newb to EV power.

One thing I like about hot rodding is it encourages you to try new and innovative things. I was into turbocharging before it was the cool thing to do. Now that turbos are par for the course, I'd like to try something new. I have run Drag Week 2008 with my turbocharged Cavalier (ran mid 12s back then, now in the high 11's). I would like to take that car on drag week again with an electric powertrain driving the rear wheels to supplement the existing ICE up front. 

Here is my reasoning:
1) Run a proven & reliable 400hp/400tq ICE driving the front wheels
2) ICE gives range for running between tracks and runs all accessories (A/C, PS, etc)
3) Have AWD by using an electric drivetrain driving rear wheels, giving another 400tq to the rear wheels for drag strip passes.
4) The idea would reduce the capacity needed for the battery pack since the EV powertrain would only need to operate for 1-3 passes at each track (would really only need to make one good pass, but I would want to allow for aborted passes due to tire spin, missed shifts, etc.)

How workable does this idea sound to people more familiar with EV power?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

It's a concept that I've thought about but I don't know how AWD vehicles do at the strip. Does your car have traction control? I think you'd have to mount something like a Ford 9" rear end to handle the torque. There are powerful drag cells out there so if you add approximately 150# (motor), 30# (controller), 120# (battery) to double power it could impressively quick. You could recharge the smaller pack quite quickly and I wouldn't carry more battery than necessary. I suspect that chassis work would be more difficult than anything else. Ex. where exactly do you mount the motor? It could go in front (or even in back) of the differential housing. Does your car have a subframe that would facilitate mounting the rear end, etc.


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## 89jyturbo (Nov 23, 2015)

Frank said:


> It's a concept that I've thought about but I don't know how AWD vehicles do at the strip. Does your car have traction control? I think you'd have to mount something like a Ford 9" rear end to handle the torque. There are powerful drag cells out there so if you add approximately 150# (motor), 30# (controller), 120# (battery) to double power it could impressively quick. You could recharge the smaller pack quite quickly and I wouldn't carry more battery than necessary. I suspect that chassis work would be more difficult than anything else. Ex. where exactly do you mount the motor? It could go in front (or even in back) of the differential housing. Does your car have a subframe that would facilitate mounting the rear end, etc.


No firm plans for the build yet, just a thought experiment at the moment. I would plan to run a transverse motor in the rear. I have spare drivetrain parts for the ICE powertrain (5spd manual transmission, axles, etc.) and there are adapter plates readily available to mount a motor to that transmission, so I was considering using that. There is not a removable rear sub-frame, but I'm not scared of some heavy fabrication.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

If you haven't already, you would probably have fun reading some of the build threads on this board, ex. DC Plasma, Assault & Battery. There's a lot of good info floating around here.


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## 89jyturbo (Nov 23, 2015)

Frank said:


> If you haven't already, you would probably have fun reading some of the build threads on this board, ex. DC Plasma, Assault & Battery. There's a lot of good info floating around here.


 Thanks, I have not done so yet but that was my reason for coming here.


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## JamesBennett (Dec 15, 2015)

I am also getting into the automotive industry and would require read these to have the basics cleared.
____________________________

web


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Still hunting for the perfect car or mini truck to start with, this needs to be done.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

What would it take to build a portable charger like tesla's supercharger? Something that can charge a full pack in under 30 minutes


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Its not the charger that would be the issue so much as the power source at each track. If the gave you a 220v 20amp plug from the back of the concession stand at the track you would easily blow their breaker.

I don't believe the charger itself would be too much of an engineering problem at some reasonable power level well below tesla grade. 

You could also divide the pack for charging and just buy a bunch of whatever high current charger you could get your hands on. 

For drag week you are doing multiple runs but not back to back so even a modest powered charger could keep you topped off between runs.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

The largest issue here is the distance between runs. And the lack of proper charging infrastructure there. 

Solution could be as easy as an generator in the trunk that can be removed at the track to save weight.

out of the rules 



> •Trailers may not contain any components that contribute to cooling, charging, oiling, or fueling the competition
> vehicle while the trailer is being towed.


So charging with an towing generator is not allowed. So swapping batteries with an trailer with generator can be, or some sort of fast charging setup (trailer with large battery being slow charged with a generator then charging the car with that during a rest stop)


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

You can pull a larg generator and stop to charge up, rules only say it can't be charging while driving.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

yes but generators capable of 50kw continuous load or anywhere in that ballpark weigh in around 800+KG without fuel and trailer. So i think you would reach your tipping point very fast with the increase drag caused by the trailer outweighing larger battery in the car.

Would be very fun to do that math on this theory though. I would personally lean towards a battery swap system (charging on a trailer) or a removable generator in the car or even possible a permant hybrid with a light 4 cylinder turbo.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Your problem is getting to the track
Once there each run will take almost nothing

200Kw x 10 seconds = 555watt hours - or about 2 miles range - so 10 runs = 20 miles range

How far is the track? - and can you drive there the night before and stay at a hotel?


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

The distance between the tracks change, you never know the route. Normally its anywhere from 200 to over 300 miles a day.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1075/0090030/20kw-diesel-generator/
Can rent this for the week, it's a 20kw gen. Not sure how long it would take to charge up a 100 mile pack.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Dustin

So your problem is the 300 miles and the rules about trailers

I would be looking at something like a wheelchair carrier on the back of my car possibly with having to change the rear suspension units for the trip

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=t...vOTLAhXMlZQKHYGtAYEQ_AUIBygB&biw=1119&bih=894


Then your generator can sit (bolted) on the carrier and feed power to your car while driving
at 60 mph and 300 watthrs/mile you need about 20Kw

If you have a 20 Kwhr pack and a 15Kw generator then you will be able to go for about 240miles in one hit at 60mph

If you go slower then you will be able to go further


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

That sir isn't a bad idea. But finding a gen that would fit on one.


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