# Car died ---- Help pls!



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Aloha, My Yaris. Zilla HV1 hairball, Warp 9, 46x180 amp cells, died yesterday.

I had only gone 20 miles (over 3/4 charge left) and was driving only at 40mph or so. The car bucked a little and throttle died.

Both contactors are coming in, have full voltage, 12v circuit is ok, cat5 cable hairball to zilla is ok and no error light on the hairball.

Zillaconfig shows no error except "waiting for throttle input". error 1314. 

No wires loose, but pressing throttle does nothing, but it does show up on the zillconfig DAQ as Motor volts go up to 153V.
Weather here is about 75 degrees and no rain. hairball and zilla are protected.

Ideas? thanks
Francis


----------



## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Checked the brushes at the motor?


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

kennybobby said:


> Checked the brushes at the motor?


Thanks that is all that seems to be left to do. But at only 12,000 miles on the motor, are brushes sometimes an issue?


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

spdas said:


> ...are brushes sometimes an issue?


I've never had them not be an issue. 

It sounds like your Zilla is waiting for a throttle input.


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckus said:


> I've never had them not be an issue.
> 
> It sounds like your Zilla is waiting for a throttle input.



I always thot that the motor was the most bullet-proof of the build....and lasts for 75k trouble free miles. Anyways a job for tomorrow.

And yes the message is saying on Zillaconfig " waiting for throttle input.

What about the thermal sensor on the motor being defective?

Francis


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

spdas said:


> I always thot that the motor was the most bullet-proof of the build....and lasts for 75k trouble free miles. Anyways a job for tomorrow.


The motor, when properly applied, installed and used, typically is trouble free. If you have a motor problem, it is probably your own fault. I don't see any evidence in your post suggesting it is related to the motor. Have you even looked at the motor? Take a photo or 3 and post them.



> And yes the message is saying on Zillaconfig " waiting for throttle input.


Why do you not think you have a problem with the throttle signal


----------



## Lauris_K (Feb 25, 2013)

Well for motor being most bullet proof I would say that is AC motor case, DC have their brushes and they have no warning system of being close to wearing out, and BLDC have their issue of demagnetizing in high temperatures, tho this point is easy to monitor and prevent.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Lauris_K said:


> ..... DC have their brushes and they have no warning system of being close to wearing out,....


Actually DC motors have (or can have) BWI, brush wear indicators. But I have never seen an EVcar use the system although it is visibly apparent in photos that the BWI was equipped in some motors. Most folks believe that annual inspection is sufficient for the maintenance program of the DC motor and it is not unusual to see or hear of DIY conversions getting 50,000 miles or more of trouble free service from DC motors.

There is no evidence spdas's problem is motor related. The fact that he reported no smoke, sounds or smells coming from the direction of the motor when the car ceased function leads me to believe it was not the motor.

Let's have spdas supply additional information before digging the grave for his motor.


----------



## PowerSurge (Jan 24, 2013)

Sounds to me like the throttle position sensor is bad.


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Why don't you just disconnect the throttle input from the controller, apply throttle by pushing it by hand, and measure the output?


----------



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

I probably do not have as complicated system as you but I had a similar problem when I first had my car on the road. It turned out to be just a loose wire. There is more to my story but the thing is be sure you have the car in neutral and preferably the wheels off the ground because if it is something simple like a loose wire that might make contact while you are moving things around it could take off and make a new opening in your garage at the very least.


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

major said:


> Actually DC motors have (or can have) BWI, brush wear indicators. But I have never seen an EVcar use the system although it is visibly apparent in photos that the BWI was equipped in some motors. Most folks believe that annual inspection is sufficient for the maintenance program of the DC motor and it is not unusual to see or hear of DIY conversions getting 50,000 miles or more of trouble free service from DC motors.
> 
> There is no evidence spdas's problem is motor related. The fact that he reported no smoke, sounds or smells coming from the direction of the motor when the car ceased function leads me to believe it was not the motor.
> 
> Let's have spdas supply additional information before digging the grave for his motor.


Aloha and thanks for your help. OK there was a smell and I thought it was coming from the outside as I was passing the island dump. The smell was just like that "sweet smell" you get when a cell overheats. 

More on the throttle output. (and I do not remember the labels zilla-config is using, but
Voltage when throttle pressed jumps from 0 to 153 (my pack voltage)--it is either 0 or 153
Throttle (whatever exact label is used) goes from 57 to 159
Amperage is 0
Another scale starts at 0 and increases as the throttle is depressed.

Sorry for the lack of info above, but it is still only 6am here and still dark. I will be back when I get a chance in a couple of hours to give more exact info.
Francis


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

OK, its the motor. Seems like I can get away with replacing the brush and brush holder in place without removing the motor. As far as I can tell, one brush cracked and overheated, etc.

1: do I clean the commutator? How? (Marks on commutator center rub off easily with finger)

2: should I replace all brushes?


Here the photo.

thanks, Major


----------



## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Here's some advice on comm wear and/or damage patterns: http://www.morganamt.com/hu/files/Morgan Carbon HU/understanding commutator patina.pdf
Me thinks that during/after repair you should wipe the residue, run the motor idling for a few minutes, inspect visually, break-in brushes, check again and let us know the results...


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

spdas said:


> OK, its the motor. Seems like I can get away with replacing the brush and brush holder in place without removing the motor. As far as I can tell, one brush cracked and overheated, etc.
> 
> 1: do I clean the commutator? How? (Marks on commutator center rub off easily with finger)
> 
> ...


Yep, now you know. Something happened more than just your normal brush wear. My guess is damage causing brushes losing contact with the commutator. Could have been a spring failure or contamination causing the brushes to stick in the holder, or maybe overload and excessive heat. That caused the shunts (pigtails) to overheat and blow out of the brushes. A short in the armature could have also been responsible.

I see no choice but to pull the motor and take it to a qualified repair shop. Look up EASA http://www.easa.com/ or a forklift repair shop. The comm should be turned and undercut. The armature checked for shorts and grounds. All brushes replaced and springs where needed (probably all of them). The brushes 180° from your photo are the same polarity so are also damaged.

The repair shop should be able to give you some idea as to the reason for the failure. I would take a look at your current settings. Maybe consider putting a thermal sensor on the brush holder and monitoring temperature.

And after the repair, break in the new brushes properly. Again, this is not your normal DC motor wear but a failure. So you should find and correct the problem or it is likely to reoccur.

Sorry for your loss,

major


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

My speculation of the cause was that this brush is the one closest to the road and a worker was blowing a lot of dust from under the car with a leaf blower. Grit was 100% likely to enter at that brush location.

francis


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Dang! Sorry to hear that Francis.


----------



## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Aloha, most of my problem stemmed from not covering the air inlet at the brushes, so am putting together the forced air filtered system. But which blower to use:?
Jabsco 3" 105cfm or 150cfm? OK bigger is better, but is 105cfm better in respect to:
Mounting area....is it smaller than the 150CFM? (little room to work with)

Which one is Quieter?

Which one is more durable for possible continuous use?

Ideas?
thanks
francis


----------

