# Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*



> fortywattblub wrote:
> > It seems to me that they should have
> > the front hand brake on the left side. Vectrix encourages riders to use the
> > regen braking whenever possible.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Bicycles have the right brake for the back and the left for the
front.... I'd be in trouble if I ever rode a motorcycle. I just
talked to a friend who builds his own bikes, and he does them in the
motorcylcle configuration, with the right hand doing the front brake,
to have his stronger hand doing the front (more important now, but
used to be less useful back when bicycle brakes weren't as
controllable) brake. He also has a motorcycle, so it makes sense to
him too I guess.

But, apparently on a motorcycle, the front brake and the throttle
should be on the same side, to prevent you from engaging both at the
same time. Seems like the regen should be on the left side to solve
this problem... (conflicting with the clutch on a normal motorcycle,
but the vectrix doesn't have a clutch) regen is more like a rear
brake thing anyway, while your right hand does the panic braking with
the front brake.

Z

On Nov 14, 2007 1:30 PM, fortywattblub


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I went down on my Vectrix (could have been killed) because the rear wheel
> > locked up in an emergency situation. It seems to me that they should have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

> I went down on my Vectrix (could have been killed) because the rear wheel
> locked up in an emergency situation. It seems to me that they should have
> the front hand brake on the left side. Vectrix encourages riders to use =

> the
> regen braking whenever possible. However, when one gets in the habit of
> using the regen on the throttle the tendency in an emergency is to hit the
> regen and the left hand brake which is also the rear wheel=E2?=A6causing =
the =

> rear
> to lock up and fishtail.
> I have decided to stop using the regen because I want to go for the front
> brake automatically in an emergency.
> Is there any good reason to use the regen braking other than to get a =

> little
> charge? It seems to create a lot of torque on the motor and if one isn't
> concerned about the slight recharge perhaps not using it will save some =

> wear
> on the motor. I'm just speculating on this.
> Also, is there a vehicle code that says the the left side hand brake must =

> be
> for the rear wheel? I want to reverse my handbrakes, but until then I will
> just stop using the regen to avoid training myself away from the front
> (right) hand brake. (It's very awkward to reverse throttle for regen and
> pull the right hand brake simultaneously.)

Cedric Lynch has had the same setup on his machine for many years. I don't =

like it myself, but I don't see it as a big problem. You're going to roll =

off the throttle before going for the brake whatever you do. My prefered =

layout would be a left thumb operated regen brake, with a left lever for th=
e =

rear mechanical brake.

Vectric HAS to use a standard layout. It's not so many years ago that the U=
S =

insisted on a foot operated rear brake, which kept a lot of scooters off th=
e =

market. Rumor has it that this was to protect Harley, as was the right foot =

brake rule (It should be on opposite side to the front for best control).

Bottom line is, you panicked and didn't control a rear wheel lockup. I've =

done it myself and not just becuase I've got bikes with left and right foot =

brakes and three different shift patterns. You need to practice emergency =

stops on a regular basis.

Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

No, rear brake is left HAND. There are no foot brakes or clutch. It would be
much better and safer if I could use the regen/reverse throttle brake with
the right hand and then add braking with the front wheel in the left hand. 



> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> >
> > fortywattblub wrote:
> >> It seems to me that they should have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

> Bottom line is, you panicked and didn't control a rear wheel lockup. I've
> done it myself and not just becuase I've got bikes with left and right foot
> brakes and three different shift patterns. You need to practice emergency
> stops on a regular basis.
I have done both several times on by 150cc NSR, locking the rear into
slide with foot brake, and almost flipping
over with too aggressive front braking.
The former is especially easy to happen on wet roads. After some
practicing one learns to control this stuff however, and use _both_
brakes appropriately.
Short rear slide is relatively easy to recover from on a normal
motorcycle, provided that you have some space to go to on the road. I
have no experience on maxi-scooter though.
These situations can happen regardless of what type of brakes you are
using, regen electric, discs or magic pixies holding the rims.
in short, get to know your bike and its capabilities with some closed
course practice and/or like others suggested, take a safe riding
course.

-kert

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

The Vectrix is like other scooters with the orientation of the brake
levers... I found it completely natural taking to it from a Scoot'elec.
AFAIK the right lever is virtually always the brake.

Customers who are only used to riding motorcycles (rather than scooters) do
sometimes find it natural to want to "clutch-in" when stopping, which is why
I get them to do some low-speed riding first! This is akin to test drives
in the cars where people try to clutch-in with their left foot, since so few
people ever drive automatics here!

I would concur that a motorcycle training course would be worthwhile. I did
one recently after having ridden a scooter for 8 years: still, I felt that I
learned a lot, which surprised me. Particularly (on the UK's CBT course)
they "teach" you how to make an emergency stop, putting the emphasis on the
front brake.

The one thing that I found with the Vectrix, and the superb amount of regen,
is that I rode it for about 3 days without using the mechanical brakes once!
When I did try them I faced the same problem as with the cars/vans that I
drive: the brake discs had surface corrosion which meant that they didn't
work at 100% efficiency and wouldn't do so in an emergency stop.

I would therefore recommend getting into the habit of intentionally using
the mechanical brakes at the first opportunity after leaving home each day,
e.g. front brake on-off-on-off, both together on-off-on-off and this also
helps to reinforce in your mind which brake is which. Then they WILL work
when you need them!

Matt

-- 
Matthew Trevaskis
[email protected]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

You are more skilled than I. I've only been riding
since I was 16 (I will be 60 next month). I still
think that it makes no sense to have the braking for
both the front and rear wheel controlled by the same
(right) hand. It would be much better for brain
function and reflex to have the right hand control the
rear wheel braking only and the left hand to control
front wheel braking only. But those of you on this
list seem to believe the problem simply lies with my
lack of experience. Thanks for your input. =


=



> --- Charles Whalen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have had to stop from high speeds in very short
> > distances a number of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Precisely my point. You drove the bike for three and
used only the regen braking. After that self training
when confronted with a split-second emergency
situatiion you WILL use the regen braking and you WILL
use the left-hand brake, both of which are braking
only the rear wheel. In my opinion it makes no sense
to have braking for both front and rear brakes in the
same hand. If you are going to use regen most of time
your brain learns that the right hand brakes the rear
wheel, not the front. Each brake should be controlled
by a different hand consistently. Currently the right
hand can control both the front and rear brake
(regen). Very confusing for a brain. It should be =97
right hand controls rear and left hand controls front.





> --- Matthew Trevaskis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The Vectrix is like other scooters with the
> > orientation of the brake
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Given that you've been riding longer than I have, 44 years in your case, I
wouldn't say it's a lack of experience. Rather, I would say that this is a
good example of how what is most logical, natural, intuitive, and
ergonomic to the brain, reflexes, and eye-hand-foot-brain coordination is
really highly subjective and personal. This reminds me of the very
passionate debates that come up a few times a year on the RAV4-EV discussion
list and go on and on ad-infinitum and ad-nauseum about the best
implementation of regen braking (in a car) and whether it's: a) on a
handlever accessed by your right hand (e.g. as on the gearshift lever),
b) seamlessly blended with the friction brakes on the brake pedal (on the
floor), c) blended into the accelerator pedal, in the top half of its
travel, when backing off (a la Solectria and AC Propulsion), d) two brake
pedals (on the floor), one for friction braking and the other (where the
clutch would be) for regen braking, e) various combinations of the above,
etc., etc. The wide range of opinions and how strongly they are held is
indicative of how personal and subjective this is.

I can see your point, from your perspective, about how much more logical,
natural, and intuitive it would be to have all of the rear-wheel braking
functions (both regen and friction) together on the right handlebar and the
front-wheel braking function (friction) on the left handlebar. The only
thing I can suggest is that you either build your own electric motorcycle or
have a good custom electric motorcycle builder build one for you, in which
case you or the builder can build the bike exactly to your specs and
preferred ergonomic functionality, including putting the rear-wheel braking
function(s) on the right and the front-wheel braking function on the left.
I can recommend an excellent custom motorcycle builder, my fellow Florida
EAA member Jeff Patterson of Patterson Cycles (www.pattersoncycles.com) in
Jupiter, Florida. I have ridden his electric motorcycles and they are
absolutely fabulous! I hate to admit that Jeff's bikes are more fun than
the Vectrix, but it's the same difference between my RAV4-EV and Steve
Clunn's screamers. The raw power and breathtaking exhilaration that you get
from a Clunn screamer or a Patterson e-motorcycle is something that you
could just never get from the more efficient, refined production vehicles
like the RAV4-EV and Vectrix.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Charles Whalen
Delray Beach, FL


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "rubberlegs" <[email protected]>
To: "Charles Whalen" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?

You are more skilled than I. I've only been riding
since I was 16 (I will be 60 next month). I still
think that it makes no sense to have the braking for
both the front and rear wheel controlled by the same
(right) hand. It would be much better for brain
function and reflex to have the right hand control the
rear wheel braking only and the left hand to control
front wheel braking only. But those of you on this
list seem to believe the problem simply lies with my
lack of experience. Thanks for your input.




> --- Charles Whalen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have had to stop from high speeds in very short
> > distances a number of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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dGluZm8vZXY=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*



> rubberlegs wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both
> > front and rear brakes in the same hand.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

In my experience if you need to stop in an unexpected emergency situation
you didn't do your job as a defensive motorcycle rider. If you have to lock
it up many times it's game over. If you can keep out of the situation where
you need to stop fast you will have better odds of surviving your time as a
two wheeled rider. Taking courses and practice helps. Lawrence
Rhodes......

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does seem to me
that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little complex having so many
controls on the right hand, moving the front brake to the left is not
the best way to simplify things. The front brake is the single most
important control on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in
the standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at least
that control is where they expect it.

Brian 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:53 AM
To: '[email protected]'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?



> rubberlegs wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and
> > rear brakes in the same hand.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

You have plenty of experience. But everyone needs practice. I'm 56 & I can
tell you for the last few years I have been getting expert(with what seems
to me like Jedi like reflexes) at catching just about any item I
accidentally knock off random surfaces. However when I was younger I
wouldn't have knocked them off in the first place. I'm getting a lot of
practice at compensating for mistakes my body now does. Lawrence Rhodes..


Message: 24
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:55:11 -0800 (PST)
From: rubberlegs <>
Subject: Re: [EVDL]
To: Charles Whalen <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle
Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

You are more skilled than I. I've only been riding
since I was 16 (I will be 60 next month). I still
think that it makes no sense to have the braking for
both the front and rear wheel controlled by the same
(right) hand. It would be much better for brain
function and reflex to have the right hand control the
rear wheel braking only and the left hand to control
front wheel braking only. But those of you on this
list seem to believe the problem simply lies with my
lack of experience. Thanks for your input.

> *********************************

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:

> I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does
> seem to me that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little
> complex having so many controls on the right hand, moving the
> front brake to the left is not the best way to simplify
> things. The front brake is the single most important control
> on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in the
> standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at
> least that control is where they expect it.

I agree. I don't actually think the Vectrix has any more righthand controls than any other MC: the throttle on an ICE MC also controls some amount of rear wheel braking, so it is standard to have both front wheel and some rear wheel braking control at one's right hand.

The only difference I can see is that on an ICE MC one rolls off the throttle to apply compression braking on the rear wheel and on the Vectrix it is necessary to "unroll" the throttle away from the rider past the "off" point to get rear wheel braking with regen. If the result is that it becomes difficult or impossible to use the front brake lever effectively while one's right hand is twisted forward for regen, then I think the liability is the regen control implementation and the solution is to address that, not relocating the brake controls to counter-intuitive locations.

Cheers,

Roger.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*



> rubberlegs <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Precisely my point. You drove the bike for three and
> > used only the regen braking. After that self training
> > when confronted with a split-second emergency
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Well, having the rear brake where the clutch would normally be isn't exactly
the standard position either? But I get your point. However, if the front
brake is the most important control on the bike then why does Vectrix ask
it's riders to train themselves off of it by using regen? And believe me, if
you ride a Vectrix very much and you use the regen you WILL train yourself
off the front hand brake. Trying to use both the regen and the front hand
brake at the same time is a disaster. 


Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:
> 
> I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does seem to me
> that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little complex having so many
> controls on the right hand, moving the front brake to the left is not
> the best way to simplify things. The front brake is the single most
> important control on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in
> the standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at least
> that control is where they expect it.
> 
> Brian 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:53 AM
> To: '[email protected]'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
> 
> rubberlegs wrote:
> 
>> In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and 
>> rear brakes in the same hand.
> 
> However, that is in fact the standard control arrangement for
> motorcycles, at least in North America. Even on an ICE bike
> considerable rear wheel braking is available by rolling off the
> throttle; I can get enough compression braking on my ICE twin to bark
> the rear tire without touching the rear brake.
> 
> I am sorry to hear of your mishap, and do hope that you and your bike
> came through relatively unscathed, however, it doesn't sound as if there
> is really very much to fault about the Vectrix's control arrangement
> here.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Vectrix-braking-flaw--tf4801786s25542.html#a13784831
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Sheesh, no sympathy or agreement from this crowd. I understand the front
brake should be on the right on a standard motorcycle. But it is more than
just fiddly to try to use front and regen together. I wonder if anyone who
is responding to my posts actually owns a Vectrix?




> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2007 7:02 PM, rubberlegs <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnNqc3UuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZXY=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

I would rather practice using the left-side hand brake for the front wheel. I
think that would be much easier. 




> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > You have plenty of experience. But everyone needs practice. I'm 56 & I
> > can
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

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aXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Personally, to get away from training myself off of using the front
brake, I wouldn't use the regen. If I was designing the bike myself, I
would put the regen on the rear brake lever such that once regen was
maxed, it would apply the rear brake. I would interlock the regen
braking with the throttle such that if the regen lever is pressed, the
throttle is released. Of course this would probably require both
throttle-by-wire and brake-by-wire systems (at least for the rear
brake). Many people wouldn't approve of this.

I really doubt the regen does that much to extend your range. You might
want to experiment to see what the effect of not using it is.

No, I don't own a Vectrix. I'd love to though.

My comments are not meant harshly. I just state what "I" would do and
what I think is a good idea. If you want to put the front brake on the
left, I'm pretty sure it would be legal. Almost all bicycles have the
front brake on the left and the rear brake on the right. (The ones that
are reversed are owned by motorcyclists.) Do what you want, and just be
aware that you might not want to loan your Vectrix to a motorcyclist.

Most importantly, I'm glad you're still here to ask the questions!
Anything that prevents YOU from crashing YOUR Vectrix seems like it
would be a good thing to me.

Have fun with it,
Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of fortywattblub
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?


Well, having the rear brake where the clutch would normally be isn't
exactly the standard position either? But I get your point. However, if
the front brake is the most important control on the bike then why does
Vectrix ask it's riders to train themselves off of it by using regen?
And believe me, if you ride a Vectrix very much and you use the regen
you WILL train yourself off the front hand brake. Trying to use both the
regen and the front hand brake at the same time is a disaster. 


Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:
> 
> I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does seem to me 
> that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little complex having so many 
> controls on the right hand, moving the front brake to the left is not 
> the best way to simplify things. The front brake is the single most 
> important control on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in 
> the standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at 
> least that control is where they expect it.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:53 AM
> To: '[email protected]'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion

> List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
> 
> rubberlegs wrote:
> 
>> In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and 
>> rear brakes in the same hand.
> 
> However, that is in fact the standard control arrangement for 
> motorcycles, at least in North America. Even on an ICE bike 
> considerable rear wheel braking is available by rolling off the 
> throttle; I can get enough compression braking on my ICE twin to bark 
> the rear tire without touching the rear brake.
> 
> I am sorry to hear of your mishap, and do hope that you and your bike 
> came through relatively unscathed, however, it doesn't sound as if 
> there is really very much to fault about the Vectrix's control 
> arrangement here.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Vectrix-braking-flaw--tf4801786s25542.html#a137848
31
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

The point being that you try to convince everyone that it is
impossible to use regen and front brake together so it is a
disaster and others saying that you *must* train yourself
to use *only* the brake levers in an emergency and forget about
the regen stuff for those cases.

You are in perfect agreement with everyone else, if you only
care to listen carefully to what is meant that you should try. 

Normal driving: regen (may even forget about brakes according some)
Energency: brakes only
Train yourself to switch from one to the other situation quickly,
then you should have no issues.

BTW, not only motorcycles and scooters, but also bicycles need two
good working brakes to stop safely in a hurry in an emergency.
The other day I rode next to the rear bumper of a SUV when it
suddenly made a right turn into a driveway.
I could only avoid this "right-hook" from turning into a disaster
by almost locking up both front and rear wheels, so I could slow
down from approx 15 MPH to 0 in a few feet. I felt the rear wheel
sliding sideways at the end, as apparently I did lock that one up
but the front stayed on track and I avoided a collision.

You don't need to ride a Vectrix or even a scooter to know the
importance of balanced 2-wheel braking on a twowheeler.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of fortywattblub
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?


Sheesh, no sympathy or agreement from this crowd. I understand the front brake should be on the right on a standard motorcycle. But it is more than just fiddly to try to use front and regen together. I wonder if anyone who is responding to my posts actually owns a Vectrix?




> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2007 7:02 PM, rubberlegs
> > <[email protected]>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Do you own a Vectrix? 

It would be much, much easier to train myself to use the left-hand brake for
the front wheel then to go through a thought process in a split-second
emergency. My immediate solution is to simply stop using the regen and stick
with the hand brakes for slowing. 





> Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> > The point being that you try to convince everyone that it is
> > impossible to use regen and front brake together so it is a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

That's exactly what I am doing. Until I can switch the brakes I am going to
forgo the regen. Take care. 

Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:
> 
> Personally, to get away from training myself off of using the front
> brake, I wouldn't use the regen. If I was designing the bike myself, I
> would put the regen on the rear brake lever such that once regen was
> maxed, it would apply the rear brake. I would interlock the regen
> braking with the throttle such that if the regen lever is pressed, the
> throttle is released. Of course this would probably require both
> throttle-by-wire and brake-by-wire systems (at least for the rear
> brake). Many people wouldn't approve of this.
> 
> I really doubt the regen does that much to extend your range. You might
> want to experiment to see what the effect of not using it is.
> 
> No, I don't own a Vectrix. I'd love to though.
> 
> My comments are not meant harshly. I just state what "I" would do and
> what I think is a good idea. If you want to put the front brake on the
> left, I'm pretty sure it would be legal. Almost all bicycles have the
> front brake on the left and the rear brake on the right. (The ones that
> are reversed are owned by motorcyclists.) Do what you want, and just be
> aware that you might not want to loan your Vectrix to a motorcyclist.
> 
> Most importantly, I'm glad you're still here to ask the questions!
> Anything that prevents YOU from crashing YOUR Vectrix seems like it
> would be a good thing to me.
> 
> Have fun with it,
> Brian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of fortywattblub
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
> 
> 
> Well, having the rear brake where the clutch would normally be isn't
> exactly the standard position either? But I get your point. However, if
> the front brake is the most important control on the bike then why does
> Vectrix ask it's riders to train themselves off of it by using regen?
> And believe me, if you ride a Vectrix very much and you use the regen
> you WILL train yourself off the front hand brake. Trying to use both the
> regen and the front hand brake at the same time is a disaster. 
> 
> 
> Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:
>> 
>> I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does seem to me 
>> that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little complex having so many 
>> controls on the right hand, moving the front brake to the left is not 
>> the best way to simplify things. The front brake is the single most 
>> important control on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in 
>> the standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at 
>> least that control is where they expect it.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
>> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
>> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:53 AM
>> To: '[email protected]'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> 
>> List'
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
>> 
>> rubberlegs wrote:
>> 
>>> In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and 
>>> rear brakes in the same hand.
>> 
>> However, that is in fact the standard control arrangement for 
>> motorcycles, at least in North America. Even on an ICE bike 
>> considerable rear wheel braking is available by rolling off the 
>> throttle; I can get enough compression braking on my ICE twin to bark 
>> the rear tire without touching the rear brake.
>> 
>> I am sorry to hear of your mishap, and do hope that you and your bike 
>> came through relatively unscathed, however, it doesn't sound as if 
>> there is really very much to fault about the Vectrix's control 
>> arrangement here.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Roger.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Vectrix-braking-flaw--tf4801786s25542.html#a137848
> 31
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Vectrix-braking-flaw--tf4801786s25542.html#a13785500
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

One reason that the front wheel brake is controlled by the right hand
is that the right hand is stronger than the left for most people
and on a bike you must brake much harder with the front brake than
the rear, due to the weigth shift while decelerating.


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3D3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Charles Whalen
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?

Given that you've been riding longer than I have, 44 years in your case, I =
wouldn't say it's a lack of experience. Rather, I would say that this is a=
good example of how what is most logical, natural, intuitive, and ergonomi=
c to the brain, reflexes, and eye-hand-foot-brain coordination is really hi=
ghly subjective and personal. This reminds me of the very passionate debat=
es that come up a few times a year on the RAV4-EV discussion list and go on=
and on ad-infinitum and ad-nauseum about the best implementation of regen =
braking (in a car) and whether it's: a) on a handlever accessed by your rig=
ht hand (e.g. as on the gearshift lever),
b) seamlessly blended with the friction brakes on the brake pedal (on the f=
loor), c) blended into the accelerator pedal, in the top half of its travel=
, when backing off (a la Solectria and AC Propulsion), d) two brake pedals =
(on the floor), one for friction braking and the other (where the clutch wo=
uld be) for regen braking, e) various combinations of the above, etc., etc.=
The wide range of opinions and how strongly they are held is indicative o=
f how personal and subjective this is.

I can see your point, from your perspective, about how much more logical, n=
atural, and intuitive it would be to have all of the rear-wheel braking fun=
ctions (both regen and friction) together on the right handlebar and the fr=
ont-wheel braking function (friction) on the left handlebar. The only thin=
g I can suggest is that you either build your own electric motorcycle or ha=
ve a good custom electric motorcycle builder build one for you, in which ca=
se you or the builder can build the bike exactly to your specs and preferre=
d ergonomic functionality, including putting the rear-wheel braking
function(s) on the right and the front-wheel braking function on the left.
I can recommend an excellent custom motorcycle builder, my fellow Florida E=
AA member Jeff Patterson of Patterson Cycles (www.pattersoncycles.com) in J=
upiter, Florida. I have ridden his electric motorcycles and they are absol=
utely fabulous! I hate to admit that Jeff's bikes are more fun than the Ve=
ctrix, but it's the same difference between my RAV4-EV and Steve Clunn's sc=
reamers. The raw power and breathtaking exhilaration that you get from a C=
lunn screamer or a Patterson e-motorcycle is something that you could just =
never get from the more efficient, refined production vehicles like the RAV=
4-EV and Vectrix.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Charles Whalen
Delray Beach, FL


----- Original Message -----
From: "rubberlegs" <[email protected]>
To: "Charles Whalen" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion =
List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?

You are more skilled than I. I've only been riding since I was 16 (I will b=
e 60 next month). I still think that it makes no sense to have the braking =
for both the front and rear wheel controlled by the same
(right) hand. It would be much better for brain function and reflex to have=
the right hand control the rear wheel braking only and the left hand to co=
ntrol front wheel braking only. But those of you on this list seem to belie=
ve the problem simply lies with my lack of experience. Thanks for your inpu=
t.




> --- Charles Whalen <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have had to stop from high speeds in very short distances a number =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Gilbert,

> Of course this would probably require both throttle-by-wire
> and brake-by-wire systems (at least for the rear brake).
> Many people wouldn't approve of this.

Not necessarily: if the rear brake is adjusted to have free travel
for almost half the level travel, then the brake can still be
operated in the usual way (by steel wire usually) while the regen
needs a potentiometer attached to the brake lever.
This exactly represents the case in OEM EVs that have regen braking.

> I really doubt the regen does that much to extend your range.

Depends which terrain you are riding.
If half the time you are climbing, half the time descending, then
the regen on every descend can really stretch the otherwise 
severely reduced range.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy)
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?

Personally, to get away from training myself off of using the front brake, I wouldn't use the regen. If I was designing the bike myself, I would put the regen on the rear brake lever such that once regen was maxed, it would apply the rear brake. I would interlock the regen braking with the throttle such that if the regen lever is pressed, the throttle is released. Of course this would probably require both throttle-by-wire and brake-by-wire systems (at least for the rear brake). Many people wouldn't approve of this.

I really doubt the regen does that much to extend your range. You might want to experiment to see what the effect of not using it is.

No, I don't own a Vectrix. I'd love to though.

My comments are not meant harshly. I just state what "I" would do and what I think is a good idea. If you want to put the front brake on the left, I'm pretty sure it would be legal. Almost all bicycles have the front brake on the left and the rear brake on the right. (The ones that are reversed are owned by motorcyclists.) Do what you want, and just be aware that you might not want to loan your Vectrix to a motorcyclist.

Most importantly, I'm glad you're still here to ask the questions!
Anything that prevents YOU from crashing YOUR Vectrix seems like it would be a good thing to me.

Have fun with it,
Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of fortywattblub
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?


Well, having the rear brake where the clutch would normally be isn't exactly the standard position either? But I get your point. However, if the front brake is the most important control on the bike then why does Vectrix ask it's riders to train themselves off of it by using regen?
And believe me, if you ride a Vectrix very much and you use the regen you WILL train yourself off the front hand brake. Trying to use both the regen and the front hand brake at the same time is a disaster. 


Gilbert, Brian D (GE Infra, Energy) wrote:
> 
> I'll put in a couple cents here and say that while it does seem to me 
> that the Vectrix's control scheme is a little complex having so many 
> controls on the right hand, moving the front brake to the left is not 
> the best way to simplify things. The front brake is the single most 
> important control on any motorcycle and I feel it should be always in 
> the standard position so that if someone else rides your bike, at 
> least that control is where they expect it.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:53 AM
> To: '[email protected]'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion

> List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
> 
> rubberlegs wrote:
> 
>> In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and 
>> rear brakes in the same hand.
> 
> However, that is in fact the standard control arrangement for 
> motorcycles, at least in North America. Even on an ICE bike 
> considerable rear wheel braking is available by rolling off the 
> throttle; I can get enough compression braking on my ICE twin to bark 
> the rear tire without touching the rear brake.
> 
> I am sorry to hear of your mishap, and do hope that you and your bike 
> came through relatively unscathed, however, it doesn't sound as if 
> there is really very much to fault about the Vectrix's control 
> arrangement here.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 

--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Vectrix-braking-flaw--tf4801786s25542.html#a137848
31
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

We should stop this discussion and agree to disagree,
because you indicate that you are set in your ways and won't
change as the same arguments continue to come back, no
matter the suggestions.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of fortywattblub
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?


Do you own a Vectrix? 

It would be much, much easier to train myself to use the left-hand brake for the front wheel then to go through a thought process in a split-second emergency. My immediate solution is to simply stop using the regen and stick with the hand brakes for slowing. 





> Cor van de Water wrote:
> >
> > The point being that you try to convince everyone that it is
> > impossible to use regen and front brake together so it is a disaster
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Unless you have a front-wheel powered twowheeler, the throttle
will always control the rear wheel.
It is standard to have the throttle at the right hand.
It is also standard to have the front brake on the right hand
side, for a very good reason.
If you swap the two brake cables, you may be able to train
yourself to ride it safely, but as soon as someone else gets
on the bike/scooter, he/she will be in for disaster, so I
strongly recommend against modifying the brake lever setup.

I agree that a more logical braking control would have been to
integrate regen with the rear brake handle, as both work on
the same handle.
You can decide to either forego regen altogether or to continue
to practice safe driving and emergency stops, so you program
yourself to automatically grab the brake handles in emergency.
You *must* not need to go through a decision process *how* to
brake in an emergency, that is why I also reject the proposal
to swap brake cables: you will only add to the confusion of
yourself (especially if you switch rides) and others, so the
braking is no longer the automatism that it should be.

Be safe out there,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rubberlegs
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?

Precisely my point. You drove the bike for three and used only the regen braking. After that self training when confronted with a split-second emergency situatiion you WILL use the regen braking and you WILL use the left-hand brake, both of which are braking only the rear wheel. In my opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and rear brakes in the same hand. If you are going to use regen most of time your brain learns that the right hand brakes the rear wheel, not the front. Each brake should be controlled by a different hand consistently. Currently the right hand can control both the front and rear brake (regen). Very confusing for a brain. It should be - right hand controls rear and left hand controls front.





> --- Matthew Trevaskis <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The Vectrix is like other scooters with the orientation of the brake
> > levers... I found it completely natural taking to it from a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

What I would do is modify the regen such that releasing the throttle causes 
regen, not having to actually pull it back.

I've built 2 EVs that work this way, basically dropping the throttle causes 
a decel ramp which controls regen. The max the ramp will permit is not 
enough to lock the wheels.

Then you could concentrate on the right brake instead of pulling the 
throttle back.

Either that, or move the Regen such that as you pull on the brake, (either 
one, your choice) it applies the regen pot first, then after a few more bits 
of pull, the service brake engages.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?


> Unless you have a front-wheel powered twowheeler, the throttle
> will always control the rear wheel.
> It is standard to have the throttle at the right hand.
> It is also standard to have the front brake on the right hand
> side, for a very good reason.
> If you swap the two brake cables, you may be able to train
> yourself to ride it safely, but as soon as someone else gets
> on the bike/scooter, he/she will be in for disaster, so I
> strongly recommend against modifying the brake lever setup.
>
> I agree that a more logical braking control would have been to
> integrate regen with the rear brake handle, as both work on
> the same handle.
> You can decide to either forego regen altogether or to continue
> to practice safe driving and emergency stops, so you program
> yourself to automatically grab the brake handles in emergency.
> You *must* not need to go through a decision process *how* to
> brake in an emergency, that is why I also reject the proposal
> to swap brake cables: you will only add to the confusion of
> yourself (especially if you switch rides) and others, so the
> braking is no longer the automatism that it should be.
>
> Be safe out there,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of rubberlegs
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?
>
> Precisely my point. You drove the bike for three and used only the regen 
> braking. After that self training when confronted with a split-second 
> emergency situatiion you WILL use the regen braking and you WILL use the 
> left-hand brake, both of which are braking only the rear wheel. In my 
> opinion it makes no sense to have braking for both front and rear brakes 
> in the same hand. If you are going to use regen most of time your brain 
> learns that the right hand brakes the rear wheel, not the front. Each 
> brake should be controlled by a different hand consistently. Currently the 
> right hand can control both the front and rear brake (regen). Very 
> confusing for a brain. It should be - right hand controls rear and left 
> hand controls front.
>
>
>


> > --- Matthew Trevaskis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> The Vectrix is like other scooters with the orientation of the brake
> >> levers... I found it completely natural taking to it from a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

http://www.sfeva.org/wiki/Scooters-Cycles#Jim_Robinson_Vectrix_Log See my
review among others here. I had the Vectrix for 3 days and had a blast on
it. Lawrence Rhodes...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

I think you're getting a bit jumpy for no reason. You posted what
happened, many people said "that's too bad, I'm glad you're ok" ... just
because most don't agree that it's a good idea to change the braking
arrangement doesn't mean that you can't do whatever you like. Perhaps if
you really think there's something wrong with the Vectrix you could take
it up with Vectrix?
-
Martin K



> fortywattblub wrote:
> > Do you own a Vectrix?
> >
> > It would be much, much easier to train myself to use the left-hand brake for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Vectrix braking flaw?*

Although I don't own a Vectrix myself (yet) I will be dealing them
imminently and rode 700 miles in two weeks to appraise it.

Luckily for me most of that riding was in good, dry weather so I was able to
make use of the "ferocious" regen without fear of locking up the back wheel.
As I said, I was able to ride for three days without using the mechanical
brakes, partly down to years of EV use!

As part of my learning experience, which I will pass on to ALL new riders, I
would suggest using the brakes at least once a day, to clean up the braking
surfaces but just as much to "remind" the brain where the levers are!

The regen (as a reverse twist BEYOND "neutral") of the throttle grip is very
much quicker to actuate and should be sufficient in most circumstances to
AVOID situations. It almost doesn't feel like an "anti" movement but more
of a continuum with the throttle - twist it back a bit further to go faster,
a bit further forward to slow down. Usually very small movements are all
you require: it is very nicely balanced!

However, I have already decided that in poor weather, or at least with a
less-than-dry road surface, I would forgo the regen in favour of the correct
balance of front/rear mechanical brakes.

If I need to emergency brake (which I don't recall having to do in my trial)
I predict that I will go straight for both levers, forgetting the regen!
Being able to react to using the levers AT ALL is more the problem I see if
you exclusively use the regen... as much a reason for trying them daily as
anything else: with no traffic behind you, attempt reacting as in an
emergency.

As others have said, I am sorry that you had your spill, but I felt very at
ease with the scooter. If you anticipate ANYONE, EVER riding your scooter
(including your dealer remember) I wouldn't recommend changing the set-up!

(Unofficially, "Vectrix dealer hat off") perhaps you could look at the dual
braking set-up used on some other scooters: I imagine some kind of tandem
master cylinder that applies a degree of "front brake" along with the rear
when applying the left lever?

Matt
[email protected]


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