# Calculating the Payback on the Nissan LEAF Electric Car



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Who the hell cares. Why is it so hard to believe that someone bought a Volt or a Leaf because they are really nice cars and someone really wanted one? Do they have to have a payback time? What is the payback time on a 40 thousand dollar Impalla or a 40 thousand dollar Camaro?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Boy! Someone woke up on the wrong side of the garage. If electric car companies want to sell cars gasoline payback is one of the things they will tout. After all gas prices and oil dependence is what all the hoopla is about with mainstream America. Even on this forum a lot of the reasons for converting to electric are motivated by the desire to avoid higher gas prices and to some degree to help wean the nation from oil dependence. Then there are others like myself that like to be different or try new things for the sake of doing them. I have gone through the hassle of getting gas through the crunches in the 70’s and 80’s and have seen gas climb from twenty cents a gallon to today’s prices but my main reason for building an electric car was it was unique. I did my build in 1999 and never really worried about how much I was saving. Finally after reading several articles like the one above I did a simple cost analysis about a month ago. For what it is worth here it is. I make trip to the post office just about everyday. Using city mileage of twenty miles to the gallon at $3.50 per gallon vs. my EV after prorating the batteries for three and a half years plus electricity for charging it costs about $1400 less per year to make that round trip in the electric every day.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Yea, I guess I may have overreacted, but if the savings are promoted they should be separated from the payback time argument. The whole line of reasoning makes the EV sound like a penalty box. Its as if you need a justification for buying one because its not a good purchase otherwise.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Your ok Jason. I am just a tease. I see no reason to disagree with anything you say on either reply. Going back to the first automobiles there was supposedly a lot of flack about those confounded contraptions. There is going to be a lot of flap about these confounded contraptions. Given time the electric will prove it’s self and the unwashed masses will find something else misunderstand while jumping in the old EV to go where ever unwashed masses go.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

One thing I see often left out of the equation for going electric is the political and economic incentives. We're dependant on no one for electricity. It's profits don't prop up dictators or keep us entangles in politics in the middle east causing wars, unrest and resentment towards us. 

9/11 didn't happen because we don't worship the same god or they hate our freedom. It happened because we butt into everyone else's business and do some pretty unsavory things to ensure the oil keeps flowing. 

It doesn't send half a trillion out of the country and balloon trade deficits into the stratosphere every year. Even if you completely ignore the potential environmental benefits this makes for a very convincing argument.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Guys, Guys. I own a Leaf and have nearly 13,000 miles already racked up. Here is the skinny. There really is no payback but if you really want to crunch some numbers I did this for my situation. 

Kia Sportage. $28,000
MPG: 20
Cost per Gallon: $3.50
Miles Driven: 150,000 miles
Gallons Used: 7,500
Cost: $26,250 and that is calculating conservative. 
Not including other costs: $54,250

Leaf: $36,000 without rebates
Cost per charge: $2.40
Miles driven per charge: 65
Miles Driven: 150,000 miles
Charges: 2,307
Cost: $5,538 in electricity. 
Not including other costs: $41,538

$12,712 savings without taking a rebate. So the Leaf is over all a much better deal. 

Any car that gets 20 mpg will calculate out like this. Many cars get 20 mpg or worse. Some use premium fuel too. 

With Solar power your even better off because your cost is stable while you pay for your solar array and once paid it will continue to provide. We currently have a 7.2 kW system and another 6KW system to be mounted. Waiting to re-roof our house before we mount the other panels. 

So payback is relative. Some may get even better results some not as good but in the end the results are that the Leaf is the better deal. I drive it daily and it has performed without a hitch. I'd expect that from any new vehicle. Time will tell but so far there is no change in capacity or performance. It is a great car but it could use an add on battery heating system. I hope they come out with one. Other than the winter distance loss the car is excellent. It still provides me with the required distances needed on a daily commute basis. I drive the freeway daily to and from work. If I need to go further I just resort to the gasser. Ug. 

Pete


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## Randen (Apr 23, 2012)

We are actively looking for a new car. I have crunched the numbers back and forth and it seems that an electric car is the only one that actually pays for itself as you are driving by the pumps. The other un-known is 5-7 years from now what will the price of gasoline be?? That electric car may pay for itself in less time as the price of fuel inflates. To-date here in Canada no Nissan Leaf,s. I understand they are on Canadian soil in a compound waiting for the dealerships to get their stratigies in order. We are considering the Toyota Prius. The fuel economy is actually paying the increased value from a Corolla into the Prius. At todays cost of fuel thats about 5 yrs. Aprox $8000.00 in fuel savings here in Ontario for our mileage driven. I never thought there would be a day were I would consider the cost of fuel into the purchase of a vehicle. My past automotive love affairs included things like Corvettes, Firebirds and other performance cars. Now we have a Chev S-10 EV that I'm trying to get back on the road and the performance cars sit in the garage mostly.

I'm really interested to see what my wife's commute will cost with the newer technology.

Randen


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Truly there is NO payback with any car. You buy what you want.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Guys, Guys. I own a Leaf and have nearly 13,000 miles already racked up. Here is the skinny. There really is no payback but if you really want to crunch some numbers I did this for my situation.
> 
> Kia Sportage. $28,000
> MPG: 20
> ...


Pete you crack me up, you compare an SUV to an economy car. You were being sarcastic, right? 

You have it right when you say that there really is no payback.

Which if you crunch the numbers comparing a new Leaf versus a Versa (!).

Very similar cars in terms of size and looks.

Nissan Versa 13,800
MPG 28
Cost per Gallon: $3.50
Miles Driven: 150,000 miles
Gallons Used: 5357
Cost: $18,750
Total, not including other costs: $32,550

Leaf: $36,000 without rebates
Cost per charge: $2.40
Miles driven per charge: 65
Miles Driven: 150,000 miles
Charges: 2,307
Cost: $5,538 in electricity. 
Total, not including other costs: $41,538

The actual savings are more than nine thousand though because a much bigger portion of the Versa's cost is spread out over the ten years (the fuel cost). So if you invest the 15-22 thousand you save up front, then you can let that money grow over the ten years, reducing cost of choosing the Versa even more. Time value of money, opportunity costs, and all that.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> Pete you crack me up, you compare an SUV to an economy car. You were being sarcastic, right?


No, not at all. I compared it to what I HAD before I purchased my Leaf. I went from a Daily Driver SUV to the Leaf. I would never have purchased a Versa. You can only compare to what you already HAVE. Everyone is wrong to compare to some other car. I can compare it to my TDI but I still own my TDI and don't plan on getting rid of it any times soon. 

TDI numbers still put the Leaf in front. 



> Time value of money, opportunity costs, and all that.


Letting the money grow in your bank at what maybe 1% or less. Mmmmm. lets see. Well if you actually can keep that in your bank for that long you might trim it down a few bucks. Other than that its bull. People don't do that and very few even think about that. Its the same stupid argument of keeping your money in your bank account as long as possible so uncle sam does not get your tax money too soon because you don't want him making an extra 5 cents on your money. Then your taxes get raised by $300 over the next year. So you still loose.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> I did this for my situation.


Noted in my first post. Your results will vary depending upon what you're replacing. You compare to what you want to replace.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The Versa gets a conservative 30 mpg combined and more than likely real world driving. So that is going to be a fuel cost of $17,500 to drive 150,000 miles. Cost is $16,000. That is $33,500 total. Better than just buying a Leaf. There are better and not everyone would want to own an electric car anyway. So as the cost of the vehicles come down and the fuel mileage goes up the electric car remains at a distance. 

I for one did not get my Leaf to save a buck. I would have spent the money anyway, right? So I decided to get an electric because I know that Electric is the way to go. It's clean. I also get to fill up at home and not at some dirty stinky friggin fuel station. 

But if I compare to what I had I am saving a whopping amount of money. The worlds average fuel mileage is 20 mpg or worse.


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## Mark C (Jun 25, 2010)

I would say that there is a financial payback over enough time, as if it matters.

My version of why this doesn't matter. Let's say vanity/pride makes me want a vehicle that makes a statement about who I am. I go out with a budget that allows me to buy a $40k car. Maybe I buy a Mercedes Benz, BMW, Lexus LS, whatever. I make the statement {at least to myself} that I have arrived by buying a luxury car. Do I even pretend that there's a payback? A financial payback can't be calculated for feeding an oversized ego, can it?

Instead, I decide that the statement I want to promote is the virtues of electric drive. To the few who understand these things, I am showing concern for the planet and the air we all share. I show that I don't want to send US dollars to support people who do not like us and would sooner see us dead. I show that I want to be a trend setter. Now that I'm through showing what my values are, I recognize that given enough time, there actually is a financial payback. 

My ego doesn't require a pat on the back for the choice to drive electric. While I do not {yet} have an EV, I'm getting their one project at a time. 

Again, I've never heard anyone ask what the payback time was on the upgraded trim level of the xxxxxxxx they bought.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Mark, that is perfect. the is exactly the argument I was trying to make. I will have to remember that line of thought.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

The idea of purchasing a car for payback is a ploy that would be used by advertisers to sell an electric car on today’s market to the type of person that would hire someone to install CFL light bulbs in their home. Most people that buy new cars will go for the most bling they can afford wither they will admit it or not. My dad was one of those people. He would go on about how I was always changing things on my cars and that a car was just to get from point A to point B. But when ever he decided to buy a new car he would get one with all the bells and whistles. Cars have always been a clear statement of who you are. It is been getting a little fuzzy in the past few years though. Lets use the Tesla Roadster the poster child of EV’s as an example. Does a guy plunk down over a hundred grand for the car because he wants to save some money on gas or say "look I own a cool car?" Even DIY’ers on a budget try to pick something that they will not be embarrassed to be seen in. There have been some good points made here and I am digressing so I will fall back on what Jason Lattimer first said. “Who the hell cares?”


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> “Who the hell cares?”


I the hell care. That is why I have built two electric cars. That is why we recycle all we can even when our area does not promote it. That is why we have full solar on our home. That is why I grow organically. That is why I promote the RIGHT thing to do. Every step helps and is good. If you can't fully do that its fine. But do something. It is not all about saving a buck but being the proper stewards of the planet we live upon. Its all we have, so take care of it. It is not just for you but everyone and everyone to come.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

My comment "Who the hell cares?" is primarily aimed at the people, usually with a political motive, who insist that the only reason to buy an electric car is flawed. That is to say, the payback time on the penalty box you drive to save you money. Why do you have to save money on an EV anyways. Is it because it is a penalty box and the only way to justify having one is because it saves you money? No, but that is how the general public is seeing the argument. I talk to plenty of people who don't know squat about EVs and think that the only way they can justify the purchase is because it can save them money. All I say is this. Go drive a Volt or a Leaf then go drive a Cruise or a Versa. The EV drive train makes for a better car more worthy of spending extra money on. Never mind how much money it saves over what period of time. The only time I see this ," Oh but it takes x number of years to pay back your purchase on that thing, so on and so on," is in a politically motivated piece that makes EVs sound like sub standard cars nobody in their right mind should want to own. This whole argument makes the uninformed public think all EVs are penalty boxes and saving money is their ONLY redeeming value. It takes an enormous effort to tell EVERYBODY why EVs are better and this type of article makes the job even harder still.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ok, I usually use the argument on fuel cost. Most of the folks I talk to have huge vehicles that barley get 15 mpg and I use a vehicle that gets 20 mpg. Many really get taken back by the fuel cost for a vehicle that is driven a 150,000 miles which is pretty much average anymore. A $26,000 fuel bill is pretty hefty. And I always compare to what one has. I usually ask first before tossing out the figure using 20 mpg. Even at that they don't budget but the SEED HAS BEEN PLANTED. I hope it GROWS. 

Plant as many seeds as you can. You may never see the results but some will result in positive outcomes.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Plant as many seeds as you can. You may never see the results but some will result in positive outcomes.


You may be right. Most people I talk to are more open to EVs than the media would lead us to believe.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I don't trust the media any longer. I have a few at work that are totally against electric vehicles but they have no clue. There is one other with a Leaf and one more in my neighbor hood that has a Leaf. I have not meet them yet but I hope to soon. Our Chico EAA Chapter Looks to have finally shut down. Sucks. One other named John that has an old Harley Trike that he converted to electric a few years ago and last year upgraded to GBS Lithium cells. I keep trying to get someone to answer. I'd hold meetings here if I can round some up that would come. 

Might even do a few build classes here using the simple VW platform. Easy and lower cost if you already have the vehicle. 

Pete 

I too think more folks are receptive of the Electric than the media portrays. We do have lots of Hybrid owners and solar panel owners at my place of work.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Whoa! I didn’t mean to start an ecological pissing contest. I guess I should have loaded up with smiley faces. It was meant to be humorous.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> No, not at all. I compared it to what I HAD before I purchased my Leaf. I went from a Daily Driver SUV to the Leaf. I would never have purchased a Versa. You can only compare to what you already HAVE. Everyone is wrong to compare to some other car.


So when you go to buy a car you don't compare one model against another? That makes no sense. The comparison to what you plan to replace is fine, but surely you would compare total costs of various potential vehicles that meet your mission, right? 

"Hmmm... I'm driving a gas guzzler now, how much do I save with Car A vs Car B..."

When you say "you can only compare to what you already have", this is not only wrong, but it makes it seem that you don't want to face up to the reality that EVs do not save money compared to a buying a ICE vehicle of similar capabilities. 

Mind you, I have nothing against EVs, I think they are great. I do have a problem with claims that they cost less than comparable ICE vehicles.

Nucleus


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

nucleus said:


> So when you go to buy a car you don't compare one model against another? That makes no sense. The comparison to what you plan to replace is fine, but surely you would compare total costs of various potential vehicles that meet your mission, right?
> 
> "Hmmm... I'm driving a gas guzzler now, how much do I save with Car A vs Car B..."
> 
> ...


Actually it makes perfect sense. You see when I purchased my Kia Sportage IT WAS the perfect car for my needs. Fuel mileage, towing ability, hauling ability and so forth. Price of gas was not high and in my opinion quite affordable. So I calculated my purchase on my criteria then decided that the Kia best meet the need and purchased it. When it came time to buy another vehicle I already had a perfectly good vehicle. Why would I compare my next purchase to any other vehicle. There was NO OTHER EV to compare to in my price range. So the LEAF was it or nothing. My own conversion was a dismal little thing when it came to range and quality. It was a great little car mind you but more a toy than anything else. I knew I wanted electric and it fit my criteria perfectly but I did compare it to my current vehicle and it beat that hands down as we no longer needed two SUV's in the family. It became a gas hog and I mostly used it to commute. In my opinion a piss poor commuter economy wise. I did not want another vehicle. 

So Yes you MUST compare with what you plan on replacing. Still not many EV's to pick from now is there. You can either buy one or build one but you will spend a good penny building one with the quality and distances and power you need to commute or what ever on a daily basis. If I was only going to have an EV for play I would have stuck with just building one. By the way, I am actually building four more. Maybe even more. VW Bus, VW Roadster, VW Buggy, and a 66 Bug. 

There is no comparing gas to electric. I don't do electric because its cheaper to operate than a gasser. By the way. If I did not have solar it would cost me about $2.60 to go 75 miles. Do that with any vehicle. Cost of the car is not part of the equation and yes electric is cheaper in the long run. In the end you will pay less. So you pay the piper now or later. It really does not matter. 

So you decide to go gas. For now you have gas at maybe $3.75 per gallon. What will you do when it goes to $8? I know a guy at my work that says he does not give a shit and will pay $10 or $20 bucks per gallon to drive his New Retro Challenger. He sucks up McDonalds for lunch and dinner and spends a fortune on fuel. He only cares about girls and could not give a rats ass about the environment. So are you in that camp or mine?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I forgot to mention. If you have never purchased a vehicle then yes you would compare like vehicles to come up with one you might purchase but in the end you buy it because you actually LIKE it. I could go buy a cheap high mileage vehicle but have it ride like crap. It would not be desirable. If you own a vehicle that is still usable you compare to what you have. If your car is total crap and you need another because its falling apart and you can't or don't think it would be smarter to just fix it then you might compare two other cars and what you currently own. In many cases it is actually cheaper to just rebuild. Most don't so it really comes down to I am tired of my old worn out ride and I don't want to fix it but I am willing to pay more for another new one. It is not out of need for the most part. So you compare to what you have. Is it cooler, faster, good mileage and priced in my range. Remember most folks who purchase a car might think about mileage a tiny bit but in the end they just never crunch the numbers. For a car that gets 20 mpg which is many it would cost $26,000 in fuel cost alone for the first 150,000 miles. That most folks never ever think like that. If they did you would not do that. And it would not matter which of the hundreds of cars to choose from that got 20 mpg. They all would cost that in fuel alone. There may be a few folks who might crunch the numbers but not the masses. How many cars would a car manufacturer sell if they told you it would cost you another $26,000 to feed your choice? 

So my Leaf compared to my Kia is a perfect comparison for me.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> When you say "you can only compare to what you already have", this is not only wrong, but it makes it seem that you don't want to face up to the reality that EVs do not save money compared to a buying a ICE vehicle of similar capabilities.


I chose electric because I want to pollute LESS. I did show you can actually find an ICE that is cheaper to drive over all for the same distance. I choose to not pollute. I chose electric and to power it with full solar.  

Beat that? 

I already own and have paid for my power for the next 20 plus years. Beat that?


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## Tatsushige (Mar 24, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> 9/11 didn't happen because we don't worship the same god or they hate our freedom. It happened because we butt into everyone else's business and do some pretty unsavory things to ensure the oil keeps flowing.


WOW ... You hit the nail on the head with that one.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Jump in the way-back machine for a moment and ponder the 1965 large high school with both the new drivers ed class and two chevys, one with three on the tree and one with the new-fangled PowerGlide. The students overwhelmingly preferred the Powerglide model. Now jump in the Deloren for a trip back to the future. Punch in 2014. Given that the progressive high school now has A Chevy Cruise and a Nissan Leaf its a no-brainer as-to which car the students will fight over...............See, it's really very simple once the old money shuts up.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Jason is right (I can hear him gasping in surprise that I would say that... ) that there are other reasons to buy an EV - at least for some people. In fact, purchasing a car is the second most emotional decision for most people - so there is a lot of "not purely logical" in the decision.

Economics is a funny thing to study. The root of economics is that "man has unlimited wants but limited resources." That sounds simple, but tells you nothing about what the typical person considers "valuable" because everyone is different.

On the other hand, there are also an awful lot of people who are just looking at the money / capability perspective. If you approach it like that, the only fair comparison is between two similar-purpose cars. Thus, if you want to compare a Leaf you should certainly include a TDI (to compare efficiency) but should also include a similar gas vehicle such as the Versa.

When you do that, you should also throw in other lifetime costs like repairs. Gas is a tough one - it has been going up in excess of inflation recently but prices today (about $3.25) are almost spot-on what they were in 1972 adjusted for inflation. Ice cars have many systems that may fail or need servicing in 150k miles that EVs do not have, or that are more likely to fail due to heat produced by the engine. EV battery packs will likely need replacing on that Leaf in 150k miles; however unlike gas they are likely to be LESS expensive (or better, or both) in the future than now. 

Unfortunately, the sheer complexity of this exercise makes it difficult for your typical Joe Sixpack to think about it in any terms other than sticker price. Sad but true. This is why EVs will have to be better, or at least equal, in terms of price before the hoards will start buying them.


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