# The Inhaler - Electric Race Rod Project



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First, the name "Inhaler" is meant to suggest that the car is like a medicinal inhaler for an ailing atmosphere. 

I decided to take a few steps back and build a _slightly_ more conventional hot rod first. The goal is a very light, really powerful, street-legal, electric, race car; in vintage American form. As for what the actual body, and registered make/model, will be: right I am leaning heavily towards a 23 Ford Model T, using a cheap aftermarket T-bucket body, turtle deck and custom nose, to start developing it. I say to start because after all the changes are made, molds would be taken for a carbon fiber or aluminum body.

The chassis is already under construction. It's a custom built frame with 2x3" rails, and 4-link GM (G-body) rear suspension. I still have to do the front suspension, which I think will be SLA IFS. It's currently in storage, as I relocated about five months ago. I should be going to get it soon, and will have pics then.

The theme for the vehicle is a heavy 60s Indy Car influence without loosing the identity of the original car. There will be a lot of things done to it that are contradictory to conventional EV think, such as wide tires for traction. This vehicle is first and foremost a marketing tool for me to promote my design skills, but I am also taking the opportunity to promote EVs seriously.

On to the technical side of things: I am guesstimating a final weight under 1200lbs. It will be a conventional front-engine/rear-drive layout, with the electric motor up front driving a solid rear-end in back. In between, I am planning to use a 3spd manual transmission as a mode selector. First gear will provide gearing for maximum acceleration, second for general driving, and third for top speed runs.

I waited until something actually happened beyond ideas and designs to post this thread, and today a truck brought this:

















The plan is to use it as-is to get the car setup, and actually functional (at golf cart speeds) during events. Later I will have it rebuilt into a full-on race motor. I have a 300amp Alltrax AXE 4834 coming to go with the motor in the exhibition phase, and plan to run 48 volts of flooded cells. When I get to the racing aspect, I plan to run LiFePO4s.

When the guy actually rolled this thing in the garage I was grinning from ear to ear! Since my early conversations with JR3P about building an EV, I have been drooling over the thought of an 11" motor, and seeing it in person was beyond awesome. It's HUGE!!! 

After I get the car here the next step is getting the motor hooked up to the transmission, and installed in the car. For that I will be doing a custom coupler and adapter. The coupler looks like pretty straight-forward fabrication stuff. The output shaft is drilled and tapped already in the end, which makes my idea for connecting the coupler very easy. I am going to design the coupler to fit all the way onto the shaft, with adequate clearance for the bearing, and be secured with a bolt that fits into the aforementioned threaded hole. This will positively lock the coupler, without worry of a set screw working loose. If possible, I will also try to set it up so the transmission input shaft is close enough to the lock bolt to prevent it from backing out - should Loctite Red, and a tapered seat, fail. I may start on CAD models of this setup soon.

As for the adapter plate: it will most likely be a fully CNC-machined custom part. I am itching to get started on the model, but can't do that until I get the transmission here.

Thoughts, comments?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A question for those with experience with used forklift motors: What's the thing on the comm end?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> A question for those with experience with used forklift motors: What's the thing on the comm end?


Looks like the parking brake to me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Looks like the parking brake to me.


_Edited to say_: Yup, that's what it is. It works too, and has me thinking about keeping it. If it could hold a forklift, it should be able to manage my little 1200lb toy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Controller for the first phase arrived today.









If everything goes according to plans, I hope to get going on the chassis next week. Some parts I need for the front suspension are supposed to be here Saturday and, as soon as I get it rolling, the motor installation will begin. My goal is to be able to drive the chassis around the parking lot before the end of June; then get started on the bodywork.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The parts are slowly trickling in, and I need some guidance to buy more stuff, so that when the chassis gets here (hopefully next week) I'll have enough stuff to keep the progress going until it actually moves.


Since my ultimate goal is ultra high performance, but my immediate need is for it to be able to cruise around at events under its own power, should I wire it now for the high volt/high amp intended purpose, or just wire it for what I have now? I know the lighter gauge cables can't be used safely beyond their limits, but is there any penalty for using the heavier gauge with low voltage/amperage?
Are there any specific types of wire and cable that need to be used, or is it just mainly an issue of size and capacity?
The wiring diagram for the AXE 4834 specifies the wire gauges for the battery pack to controller cables, but not for wiring the main and pot switches - any recommendations?
I am using the simplest version, with no reverse, because I have reverse on the transmission, and because I want the neatest, cleanest, installation possible. It shows a 6amp diode for reverse protection between the main switch and the fuse. Do I need this and, if so, where do I get one? I haven't seen one on any of the EV sites I have links to.
The diagram shows A1, A2, S1 and S2 for the motor terminals, but my motor has A1, A2, *F*1 and *F*2. Is my assumption to substitute F1 and F2 for S1 and S2 correct?
There is also a symbol with the word "FIELD" between the S1 and S2 terminals. What is this, and how do I do it if needed?
Here is a link to the acual PDF wirng diagram.

Here's a screen capture jpeg of it:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wire it for the maximum current now if you can afford to, there is no penalty for over sized wires, other than cost and some weight, but not that much.

You want fine strand flexible wire, usually welding cable is used.

S and F are interchangeable.

The "Field" symbol represents the field inside the motor, not an external connection you have to make.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I used boat trailer wiring for the low voltage stuff. I didn't use a reverse diode, or a foot switch, or interlocks, just a key switch to power up the controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Cool, I'm going the same way then. I had already ruled out the foot switch, from our previous conversations, and if I don't have to have the other stuff it won't be included. I'll be making my own "pot box".

What the heck is an Interlock anyway?

This makes my wiring nice and simple, it should be a really clean installation.

Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The "Interlocks" are probably one or more safety switches, like a seat switch or something, that a golf cart might use as extra safety features. You might want to use a hidden switch somewhere that needs to be on to run the vehicle as a theft preventative, and/or one easily accessible to kill power to the contactor in case of an emergency. DC controllers tend to fail full on when they fail so killing power quickly is important. Most people also use a physical disconnect in case your contactor gets welded shut.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...DC controllers tend to fail full on when they fail so killing power quickly is important. Most people also use a physical disconnect in case your contactor gets welded shut.


That has the makings of a good action movie! As the car winds silently down the mountain road, the controller fails full on, and the contactor welds shut! Barreling towards sudden death... 

Seriously though, good points. The racer in me gets that loud and clear. I will incorporate a standard race style physical disconnect device. I might need that anyway at drag strips; in the future. I have the theft prevention covered already.

I went and talked to the machinist today. He already has the Chevy engine/trans pattern in CAD, so we just have to get the motor specs digitized. He loaned me some gage pins and a longer caliper, so I can start the process. I need to scrounge up a TH400 yoke and an old clutch disc too, for the coupler.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Theoretically if the controller goes full on and you hit the brakes the main fuse would blow from the high amp draw.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm using Fiero front suspension, that will look nothing like this by the time I am done with it. The first step is taking 17.5" out of the middle to suck the front wheels in. Then, eventually, I'll be doing some boxing and shaping on the crossmember. I haven't decided what the control arms will be yet. As an intermediate step, they might get a little boxing and shaping.









The rack is already narrowed. I just need to make alignment bushings for welding it back together; then turn some oil-imprenated bronze bushings for the ends, to locate the rack shaft in use.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm going to pick up my chassis tomorrow, and the actual building begins. Until then, here's a look at what I want the end result to be:


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> S and F are interchangeable.


If the letters "F" are used then it is denoted to mean *shunt field* _not_ *series field*. Sorry they are NOT interchangeable. 


Toddshotrods , seems you have picked a up shunt-wound motor if the field terminals are denoted with F instead of S as that of series-wound motors. You will have to check the windings inside. Are they buss bar shaped or are they small like noodles and have many turns? Please post pictures of the insides if you cannot tell.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That has the makings of a good action movie! As the car winds silently down the mountain road, the controller fails full on, and the contactor welds shut! Barreling towards sudden death...


Sorry to rain on your movie plot, but most (all?) DC-controller deaths tends to give uncontrolled power for a brief moment (probably less than a second, maybe even a micro second), then something gives and the controller has turned into a smelly paper weight. In worst case all the heat set something on fire, something that's not entirely uncommon even in an ordinary gasser.

That said, I don't object to a manual breaker. Precaution is always a good thing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dennis said:


> If the letters "F" are used then it is denoted to mean *shunt field* _not_ *series field*. Sorry they are NOT interchangeable.


Are you sure of that? I really thought that was a series motor. If not then the controller he bought will not work.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is a direct quote from Jim Husted about reversing my series wound motor:


> To switch the motors direction,
> just switch the two A term cables with each other, or
> both F cables with each other. Give it a 12 volt test
> to determine the needed rotation.


That's where I got the idea that S or F would mean field.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So much for my smile  I finally went and picked up my chassis yesterday. It was a long grueling day, but I did get it here. I have been grinning from ear to ear all night, and woke up with a smile today. I was even excited to see that someone had posted in this thread - until I started reading.

I have school work and some stuff to do today before I can even think about messing with the motor. Not even sure I want to know.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I couldn't concentrate, so I went straight to the source (of my future race-build plans), Jim Husted. Here was his reply:



> I see both "S" and "F" on motors. Look into the housing and see if you can see the wire connected to them. If it's beefy, then it's a series motor, if it's pencil lead size then it's a sepex.


Here's what I saw. The arrow is pointing to the wire going to the F1 terminal.











> Sorry that's a sepex motor 8^(
> Jim


My day is completely ruined


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All is not lost. You can get a Sepex controller, Alltrax makes them, as do some others, so you can still use it to move the car around shows, plus you get regen   The only problem is I don't think there are many high voltage Sepex controllers, though I could be wrong. Kelly may make some. I never considered the possibility that was a Sepex motor, I didn't think they made them that large for forklifts.
http://www.evdrives.com/alltrax_dcx_products.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> All is not lost. You can get a Sepex controller, Alltrax makes them, as do some others, so you can still use it to move the car around shows...


That's where I am right now. Immediately, the biggest problem is I was already walking a tightrope to get the chassis together and rolling. I was doing pretty good with coming in on or under budget, and getting the parts here in a timely fashion. This may screw all that up though. It cost me a lot more than I had planned to get the chassis here yesterday, plus I still forgot some parts, and now this... I hate that I love cars so much! 

I asked Jim about the possibility of having him convert this into a series motor when he does my race build. He said he is working on something similar right now, and to bug him for more details later. It sounds like there may be hope yet for my motor. From the email it's more about keeping the cost down, than an issue with actually converting it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was thinking Jim might be able to rewind it. Since the Alltrax was going to be a temporary setup anyway you can probably sell it for what you paid for it, get another Sepex controller, probably for a little more, and run that till you're ready to go to race mode. Or sell the motor you have, keep the controller, and start again looking for a series wound motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm leaning towards the sepex setup. I emailed Carl at EV Drives to see if he has a used DCX in stock. I'm also tempted to keep the AXE for the E-bike project we talked about. I have the forks, and now a controller; if I happen to find a decent deal on maybe an 8-inch series motor when I have the money, I'll have a good start on the bike.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Do a search for "Alltrax" on Ebay and you'll see a bunch of Carl's Sepex controllers, plus some from other sellers. The Sepex ones even go up to 600 amps if you want to fork out some extra cash.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Carl replied to my email with another hurdle. He said:



> I am sorry to say that the DCX line of controller are built to a known motors. Each motor has a unique field map or the controller will overheat the motor or burn itself out from sourcing too much current. If you can find a graph for your motor I might be able to match it to an Alltrax existing map.


SO, now I have the challenge of trying to figure out what the field map for my motor is and matching it to a controller.

I am considering pushing myself to meet these new challenges, and taking advantage of the opportunity to push my vehicle a little further with a little higher tech setup than I had planned (regen, no trans, reverse with the motor, etc).

Just thinking it through. Anyone got any tips and suggestions on the field map issue?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if one of the Kelly programmable sepex controllers would avoid that problem? More expensive of course. Also, apparently, sepex controllers don't automatically give you regen, it has to be a regen specific controller. I'll poke around and see what I can find about field mapping.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Curtis 1244 seems to offer a lot of programming control, including the field map. I haven't looked at the Kelly controllers yet.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I looked at the Curtis but thought it might be too expensive, but maybe you can find a deal. Bonus is it goes to 84 volts, at least some of them do. The Sevcon does as well I think.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It probably is; I'm just looking. I'll probably have to postpone my goal of having a driveable chassis next month, because this seems like it's going to cost more and take much more time to get sorted out. If that's the case, I figure I might as well push the controller further down on the list and shoot for a better one. Ideally, I'll go for a 600-650 amp/80-ish volt version.

I'm not going to lie, the wind has been let out of my sails right now. I am just trying to chart a way forward, for when my adrenaline starts flowing again. I made a few dumb mistakes by not doing enough research before ordering. I just assumed the motor was a series motor, and that it was the same as a Warp 11. I didn't think to ask more questions. Had I realized all this up front, and still made the decision to go forward with it, I would have been prepared for the hurdles.

I also found out today that the motor's output shaft, though very stout, is not the same pattern as a TH400 transmission's output shaft. That means I have some searching to do to find something with a spline pattern that matches it.

Topping it off, I drove seven hours (round-trip), spent four times what I had planned to, and still forgot some parts. You would think this is my first rodeo, but I have been doing this crap for decades now (custom vehicles, not EVs). Before I start spending again, I'll get my head together and make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes. I'll also find a way to turn the ones I made into something good.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't have expected the shaft to match up with a TH400, that would be too easy. I don't know if you'll be able to find a matching spline or get one broached. Most people have their shafts turned smooth with a keyway then use a taperlock.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I wouldn't have expected the shaft to match up with a TH400, that would be too easy. I don't know if you'll be able to find a matching spline or get one broached. Most people have their shafts turned smooth with a keyway then use a taperlock.


I started searching first in automotive apps, just to make sure there isn't anything else using the same specs - before doing it the hard way. My next step will be to locate the part that the output shaft plugged into on the forklift, and machine it down to suit my needs. If all else fails, I will have what I need made from scratch. I'm pretty sure my machinist has access to the equipment needed to do this.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Found this, might be a good temporary solution for you that costs nothing:


> You can also run a fixed voltage to the field, and use a series motor
> controller on the armature. This reduces alot of the benefits of a SepEx
> motor (regen, wider speed range), but does work -- there's a few cars on the
> EV album using aircraft generators (similar to SepEx motors) with a fixed 24
> or 36 volts to the field.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Found this, might be a good temporary solution for you that costs nothing:


That's awesome!  As you know my main goal right now is just to make the thing move, and it seems this would do the trick. If this works to get the vehicle moving I could save up to get the best Sepex controller available, for an intermediate step.

Actually, I'm learning a lot from this mistake. If a SepEx motor can be built into a full race motor, I would be tempted to do it. I downladed the Curtis manual, casually browsed through it, and was impressed with what can be programmed. It almost makes the tuning capabilities of a series motor seem like a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection in comparison. Racing carburetors and mechanical injection are awesome, when properly tuned, but modern EFI systems can offer all the performance plus the civility of a production car.

It seems that with this setup a foot switch might be in order to not have full power in the field when the vehicle is on but not moving, or is that not a problem?

As usual, you're help is invaluable.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You'll have to decide if you can live with a max of 120 volts and 800 amps, which looks like the highest Sepex goes, if you can find one of those.
Sepex seems to be more popular in Europe 
http://www.elektrosistem.com/e/p2.htm
Their PDF shows up to 120 volts.
Zapi also makes Sepex
http://www.zapiinc.com/sem.html
Another possibility is someone could make you a custom controller, probably big bucks though. You could contact Darius at Electrocraft to see if he can do a sepex http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/
For your temporary setup I think it might make sense to use a throttle switch to cut the field when off throttle. Looks as if it may take some testing to find the right voltage for the field:


> If you have too high, it
> will be low rpm, and high torque, but might overheat the field. If you have
> too low, it will be high rpm, but have little torque. Some, like the big
> 13" GE SepEx that I have are designed for the field voltage to be as high as
> ...





> Typically, SepEx motors have the fields wound for a lower voltage than the armature. Like for example, 48 volt armature (and battery) and a 10 volt field. The SepEx controller takes care of providing the proper field voltage (and current). The lower field voltage is done so that the field can be over excited at high armature currents, mimicking the high load characteristics of a series wound motor. But the continuous rated field voltage is still 10 volts.





> A fixed field excitation on that motor may end up causing severe commutation problems on start up and heavy loads during accelerations.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Excellent research! I think I can handle the experimenting to find the right field voltage, with a little DIY Electric Car Forums help.

I'm thinking about purchasing a medium range controller to replace the AXE when I have the money for it, just to get a little better performance and protect the motor when I get bored with putt-putt performance.

Later, when I get close to building the race motor, I hope to have enough research done to figure out whether to have Jim convert it to a series motor or keep experimenting with sepex. Either way, I am preparing myself for the cost of having a custom controller built eventually. I know what I want in one and don't see it available on the market currently.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry for the blurry cell pics, my camera is down for the count. Not much to see yet, but the chassis is here now, and the actual building is about to begin.








Right now, I am working on finalizing some design specifics that I couldn't do without the chassis. That means I am going back and forth from the computer to the chassis, measuring and testing part locations. So far, I am very pleased to report that just about everything is working out exactly as I expected it to.

I have decided to keep the front suspension's current track width. I think the aesthetic balance is better and, of course, it will handle better with the wider front track.

The aluminum piece you see is the pedal assembly. Since I took this pic, I cut the tack welds, moved it forward, and laid it down a bit. Now it is where I always wanted it, but couldn't put it because there used to be a Chevy V8 stuffed in front of it. Next I need to make a mock-up motor and adapter to sort out the component locations, before we start carving chunks of aluminum. I think I am going to discard the factory bellhousing and build a full custom motor-to-transmission adapter.

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More Sepex goodness. If you put a rheostat on the field you can easily adjust it while experimenting:


> Start by measuring the field resistance with an ohmmeter. If it's well
> under an ohm, it's probably a series motor (not shunt or sepex). A shunt
> or sepex field will be at least several ohms; more likely 10-100 ohms.
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That is freakin awesome dude! You're trying to make sure I keep  huh?!? I had it in the back of my mind that some kind of trial and error would be needed to find the right field voltage, but had no idea how that was going to happen.

Just freakin awesome!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Good news on my end too! I just did some more research into the motor's 1-5/8" x 25T splined output shaft and found out that some Ford tractors use this pattern for the clutch disc, and some Massey Fergusons have a rigid PTO disc with it. Online the Massey disc was $43.55, and the Ford's was $63. I am going to check with some local places and see if I can just pick one up. Swing by the parts store on the way home and grab a Chevy clutch disc and I am on my way to coupling motor and transmission.

The guy who bought my old shop is promising to get started on the collapsed roof and free my lathe, so I may be able to start on the coupler myself soon.

I can't remember if I mentioned it, but I decided to toss the bellhousing and do a complete custom motor-to-transmission adapter. The bellhousing just doesn't offer enough benefit to keep it, and I can use the extra space around the pedals. My version will probably be two CNC'd endplates (one to fit motor, the other to fit transmission) with a short section of 4-5" o.d. 6061 tubing welded between them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is probably an old tractor somewhere with just what you need, you might check some online tractor forums or something.
http://www.ssbtractor.com/
http://www.ssbtractor.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lol! ssbtractor.com is where I found the Massey PTO disc!  I don't mind buying new, that's not much. Buying the tractor disc and a Chevy clutch disc new or rebuilt, I'll only have around $75 - 100 in them. Add few more bucks for a chunk of good steel to machine the barrel from, plus balancing, and it'll be still be a pretty cheap piece.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Quick question about motor mounts: does it matter where on the motor they are? I am fairly certain that the motor-to-transmission adapter will also serve as a race-style mid-plate, extending out and bolting directly to the frame rails.

I also have aluminum front mounts underway. These will be a glorified version of the common steel strap mounts, basically clamping around the housing. Does it matter where I locate them on the motor? The three locations available are on the extreme other (comm) end (all the way on the outside edge), just behind where the comm end bolt to the main case, or in the middle of the whole motor assembly (longitudinally) on the main case.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The center of the main housing is probably the best but I'm not sure it really matters that much as the drive end adapter will take most of the load.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Good news on my end too! I just did some more research into the motor's 1-5/8" x 25T splined output shaft and found out that some Ford tractors use this pattern for the clutch disc, and some Massey Fergusons have a rigid PTO disc with it. Online the Massey disc was $43.55, and the Ford's was $63. I am going to check with some local places and see if I can just pick one up. Swing by the parts store on the way home and grab a Chevy clutch disc and I am on my way to coupling motor and transmission.
> 
> On that note, the machinist seems to be flaking out a bit, but that isn't really a problem, because there are a bunch of machine shops here. I'd rather find out now than when one has my materials, deposit, and time on indefinite hold. Also, the guy who bought my old shop is promising to get started on the collapsed roof and free my lathe, so I may be able to start on the coupler myself soon.
> 
> I can't remember if I mentioned it, but I decided to toss the bellhousing and do a complete custom motor-to-transmission adapter. The bellhousing just doesn't offer enough benefit to keep it, and I can use the extra space around the pedals. My version will probably be two CNC'd endplates (one to fit motor, the other to fit transmission) with a short section of 4-5" o.d. 6061 tubing welded between them.


toddshotrods,
You may (probably do) know this, but I would rather be redundant then see a project go sour for a simple thing.

Since you will be using a slip fit spline (clutch center on both ends) coupler, a very neat idea by the way, be sure to support the transmission input shaft. The transmissions were designed for the input shaft to be partially supported by the crankshaft 

The simplest method I can see would be to have the motor shaft center drilled to act as a pilort bearing like the bearing in the end of the crankshaft. I could be just a slip fit because the two shafts will never turn at different rates unless you plan to retain one clutch. 

In all cases that shaft MUST be supported or you may have a bearing failure. A quick look at a side view cutaway of any 3 or 4 speed RWD trans shows why. The split input shaft can develope quite a wobble as wear sets in. 

The way I solved it in one of my Bike Engine powered tractors was to modify the release bearing support and support the shaft with a bearing in the end of the support and slip fit over the shaft. This has lasted through 10 Years of pulling

One final thing, I would think this type of coupler would be noisy because of the loose fit of clutch centers to spline shafts. The method I was going to use was to have an rubber O rimg groove cut (ground) into the motor shaft so that when the coupler was slid onto the shaft the O ring took up the slop. Another thought was to POT the coupler to both shafts with high quality silicone.

Hope these thoughts help


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I also was a bit concerned about having 2 floating splines with nothing firmly locating the coupler from sliding back and forth along the shafts, but maybe I'm not visualizing the setup properly?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Jim, those are great tips. I really hadn't given the trans input shaft enough thought yet because I was so preoccupied with finding a hub for the motor shaft, and figuring out the adapter. You are absolutely correct though, about supporting the trans shaft. All the older ones have pilot bearings, and the shaft wobble is very evident in older transmissions.

I can address this pretty easily with a custom pilot bearing. My coupler is going to bolt to the motor shaft from inside (the motor shaft is already tapped for, I believe a .375" bolt). I can use a socket (allen) head bolt for this and turn the head to make sure its o.d. is concentric, then turn a bronze pilot bearing to fit over the bolt head, and receive/support the transmission shaft.

This will serve the dual purpose of supporting the transmission shaft, and making sure the lock bolt can't back out.

As for the noise, I don't think it'll bother me considering that this is a all solid mount, no insulation anywhere, toy. If it does prove to be annoying, I might try the silicone idea.

Thanks again, and please continue to point out any little gremlins you see.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I replaced the horrible pic with an only slightly blurry one. This should be good enough to show how the shaft is tapped, and how I plan to bolt the coupler to it. I need to get moving on the 3D models too, to really communicate the ideas.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Jim, those are great tips. I really hadn't given the trans input shaft enough thought yet because I was so preoccupied with finding a hub for the motor shaft, and figuring out the adapter. You are absolutely correct though, about supporting the trans shaft. All the older ones have pilot bearings, and the shaft wobble is very evident in older transmissions.
> 
> I can address this pretty easily with a custom pilot bearing. My coupler is going to bolt to the motor shaft from inside (the motor shaft is already tapped for, I believe a .375" bolt). I can use a socket (allen) head bolt for this and turn the head to make sure its o.d. is concentric, then turn a bronze pilot bearing to fit over the bolt head, and receive/support the transmission shaft.
> 
> ...


toddshotrods,

Just goes to show you there are a miilon way to skin a cat and most of them work.

I have attached an acan of a sketch of what I was trying to convey (I am not always a clear as I want to be.

I speak of noise with some knowlwdge My double engine tractor knocks and rattles in nutral to the point it scares people. 

On your design I would probably pot the transmission input shaft in the loaded direction Allow the silicone to harden with the loaded edges in contact. I would not use a bolt to hold the coupler to the motor shaft unless I had a method of ensuring perfect concentricity, otherwise any runout in the coupler will transfer side loads to the input shaft.

Of course the simplest method to locate the coupler is spacers or clamp rings (the technical name eludes me right now) on the shaft.

Just some thoughts,


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I plan to ridiculouly over-engineer the coupler. All three pieces will be turned on a high quality lathe, runout will be gauged and compensated for, and the coupler will be balanced.

I picked up one of those cheap digital cameras they sell in the neat little plastic packages to allow me to share the process, until I decide what I want for a real camera. I only paid twenty bucks for it on clearance sale and it does a good enough job to share my progess.

Today's development: I wanted to scale the rear tires down, to get rid of the hardcore drag race look. The theme is supposed to be 60s Indy car, which means fat tires, but not nose-bleed tall ones. I found a pair of 295/50R15, B.F.Goodrich Radial T/A's on Craigslist for $100 bucks - he took $75 for them. They're actually on Cragar S/S mags right now, but I'll probably switch them over to my black steelies eventually. I needed the right size tires to start setting up the chassis.









Here's the pedal assembly from the other side. The one on the far left is the mount for the steering column.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I did a little work on the rendering to balance the proportions, and put things into proper perspective. The changes are smaller rear tires and a wider track.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The actual building process is going kind of slow because this is a scratch-built, one-of-a-kind, vehicle. My daily routine is a lot of mind-numbing research, followed by design work. Then, I go out to the garage with tape measure, calipers, etc., and start mocking stuff up to see if real life corresponds with the digital and paper developments. Most of that is pretty hard to capture in pictures, but I am very pleased with what I see so far.

I'm still working on the details, but I think I am going to have space under the seats, floor, and possibly beside the motor, for more batteries. The only twist is the best fit would be slim batteries laying on their sides. THis is not a problem with 6-volt Pb batterries, but what do I do when I want to switch to Li? Can any of the currently available LiFePo4 cells be mounted horizontally.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What 6 volt lead battery can be side mounted? Frankly for your temporary low voltage setup I wouldn't bother with 6 volts since you don't really need range, just get 4 Enersys Odyssey/Sears Platinum 12 volt AGMs, or some other cheaper AGM. As for lithium, it seems possible but not ideal. If the cells are perfectly sealed and don't overheat they should be fine on their side according to some while others have had some problems. It may depend on the brand and age of the cells, presumably with newer ones being better.
Of course the higher priced A123 and Headway cylindrical cells don't care which way they are mounted.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What 6 volt lead battery can be side mounted? Frankly for your temporary low voltage setup I wouldn't bother with 6 volts since you don't really need range, just get 4 Enersys Odyssey/Sears Platinum 12 volt AGMs, or some other cheaper AGM. As for lithium, it seems possible but not ideal. If the cells are perfectly sealed and don't overheat they should be fine on their side according to some while others have had some problems. It may depend on the brand and age of the cells, presumably with newer ones being better.
> Of course the higher priced A123 and Headway cylindrical cells don't care which way they are mounted.


Optimas can be mounted in any orientation, and they have a 6-volt version. Just researching every option. What I am doing now is making sure I provide accommodations for the race setup. Trying to see just how many batteries I can fit, and where they would be located. I need to know that now, so I can design around the batteries. I am definitely running four 12v AGMs to start.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interesting I didn't know Optima had a 6 volt. I don't know if I'd try to deal with Optima's, I've heard of some poor results with them. Personally I don't think I would deal with any AGM besides Odyssey/Sears Platinum.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Interesting I didn't know Optima had a 6 volt. I don't know if I'd try to deal with Optima's, I've heard of some poor results with them. Personally I don't think I would deal with any AGM besides Odyssey/Sears Platinum.


Gotcha. They cost too much to experiment with. I really found them looking for a size on a 6-volt Pb. I knew they existed before then because race cars use them with ICE steups, for better weight distribution, but I had forgotten about them.

I want A123s


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I want A123s


Don't we all


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Personally I don't think I would deal with any AGM besides Odyssey/Sears Platinum.


Although for your initial application of low speed cruising around car shows with an occasional acceleration demo I might just go for the cheapest AGM I could find, or even floodeds if you don't mind keeping an eye on water level and corrosion once in a while. No real need to pay for a performance battery in a temporary setup I guess.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Although for your initial application of low speed cruising around car shows with an occasional acceleration demo I might just go for the cheapest AGM I could find, or even floodeds if you don't mind keeping an eye on water level and corrosion once in a while. No real need to pay for a performance battery in a temporary setup I guess.


It depends on the cost, and my budget for them at the time. Any parts that I use on this phase, and replace later for performance, will most likely be used on the next EV project. Find a cheap motor and wire it up to the Alltrax and lead batteries in something else...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I picked up a couple used tires (still need rims) to move a step closer to permanently incorporating the front suspension into the chassis. When I mocked the tires up with what I have the front track looks wider than I expected. It's still approximately ten inches (63" overall width) narrower than the rear track (73" overall width).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I picked up a couple factory GM 15" FWD rims for the front, for $5 a piece. I should have these cleaned up, tires mounted, springs removed, and start working the front suspension into the chassis next week. The more I mess with this project the sweeter it gets. Today, I realized I probably won't have to fabricate Z-sections for the frame. I think I can notch the crossmember, drop it right over the frame rails, and weld it in. Later I can fully box and shape it. It's actually amazing how well all the parts are coming together.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This may end up being the most detailed build ever. You going to post pics when you pick up some nuts and bolts as well?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> This may end up being the most detailed build ever. You going to post pics when you pick up some nuts and bolts as well?


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Keep 'em comin'!!

Eric


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm going to start on the chassis later today; pics should follow soon. Until then: I have been wrestling over the styling lately. My goal was to keep an eye on traditional hot rod styling, while having a little fun with the design. The Indy Car theme was conceived to integrate the Fiero front suspension, but it took the truck too far away from tradition. The solution is a full set of fenders. I get the ride and handling advantages of independent front suspension, without so much concern over making it "fit". I also went back to a modified "T" grille. The insert would likely be a solid carbon fiber panel, since there's no radiator. I have a little more work to do on the rendering but here's what I'm thinking...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe it's because I'm used to the old one but I don't know if I'm loving the grill. It looks too upright and doesn't flow with the rest of the vehicle, it screams "air drag" to me. Fenders are pretty good.


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## Alhaxit (Feb 17, 2009)

I completely agree with grp , the original speedster cone fit better , the rest look wonderful


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm glad you like the fenders; you may have to get used to my new grille though. I understand your point on the aero advantages, and the swoopy look, but I need the heritage of the traditional T grille. I am still considering some vintage track noses, but whatever leads the way must have as much or more pedigree than the Henry's original snout. To work effectively as a marketing tool, in the markets I am targeting, the Inhaler has to tell a story without saying a word. When I introduce the concept to people, I tell them it's a look at the future through a piece of the past.

I busted the lower balljoints loose, removed the springs, mounted the tires, and mocked the front suspension up again with the front wheels bolted on this time. I was right about how it's going to go together - just notch the crossmember over the frame rails and weld it in. I figured I'd wait until I at least have the notches cut before posting a progress pic. That may be tomorrow. I'm also going to do a cardboard mock-up of the grille to get a feel for it on the chassis. It may not be as noticeable as the rendering suggests. My guess is that when looking down at the front of the car the grille will seem to be really balanced with the rest of the car. The whole car is actually very small.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just an update: I decided to slow down a bit and make sure I am thinking things through before I start cutting the front suspension crossmember and frame rails. I'll probably spend at least a few more days poring over the designs, measurements, and calculations. 

The Goodguys PPG Nationals is also coming up next month, so I am going to refrain from spending until after the show. I want to save some cash for the swap meet, in case I find something there that I really want for the project. My recent bobbles with the motor and chassis, woke me up. I think I just got caught up in the excitement of actually building my first EV!

I would like to have the chassis rolling before I go to Goodguys. That way I can put some nice pics of it in my PDA, and brag about my baby to anyone there that will listen.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still measuring and tweaking... In the meantime, I added some more detail to the rendering:








Updated (blk anodized) grille shell with ornament, door gaps, bigger "shipping crate" battery cover, charging port imbedded in shipping crate, detail lines in bed sides, various little details here and there.

The grille shell ornament pictured is a classic Model T style motor meter, with a winged based. If I have my facts correct, the motor meter was a thermometer that read the temperature of the coolant in the radiator below it. Since there's no coolant, I want to see if I can come up with a black LCD display thin enough (approx 1/2") to mount there in a custom housing, and display something like the battery state of charge in a bright blue, thermometer style, bar when the power is switched on. Power off, it would just be shiny black. The front would have my logo on black.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been reading the discussion in m38mike's thread on his Electro-Willys' shaft connector and adapter plate setup, and I am becoming more and more tempted to just run direct (no transmission). Since my motor has a splined output, and I can get the slip-fit spline from a tractor clutch or PTO disc, I would eliminate a LOT of hassle from my build. This is going to be very lightweight vehicle, and the transmission was really just a mode selector.

After reading that thread, I have even more serious reservations about the machinist I was going to use and the shop that I know can do the job correctly would be substantially more expensive. I'm thinking about investing the money I would have spent on having these two custom parts on a better controller. The biggest Kelly 120v/600amp is $1279 on their site.

I can do reverse through the motor and find the best compromise in the rear end gears for acceleration. If I like this setup, I can always go with a quick-change rear end later to give me the ability to change the performance.

Jimdear2, it took me a while to really get what you were saying about locking the shaft adapter to the motor shaft. It just didn't register that I was locking a slip-fit hub tight, and that no matter how well I balanced the whole adapter it wouldn't account for the "slop" between the shaft and the adapter. Thank you so much for pointing that out. I have been chewing on it since you posted it though. I have been working on a building a better mousetrap, but realized that I might not need one.

Thoughts, comments?


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

Something that I posted on here about briefly before, in regards to direct drive, is using a transfer case from a 4x4 as an extra step. Instead of trying to get all of ratio from just the rear differential, the transfer case would give you a high and a low option.

I've never seen anyone do this, and it is not my idea originally, but I really can't think of why it wouldn't work...

What are other people's take on this one?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It could work, but in my case it would bring most of the complications of hooking up the transmission and possibly more weight. My 3spd only weighs around 50-60lbs (best guesstimate - by feel).

Originally, I wasn't going to run a transmission. I had planned to run a TransWarp 11, with a conventional driveshaft. Somehow, probably just because I already have it, I got hooked on the idea of using the transmission as a mode selector. The White Zombie Datsum actually proves the point that I don't need it, and his car is actually heavier than mine.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I contacted Kelly through their site to find out whether one of their 120v Sep-Ex controllers can work with my motor. So far, so good. The only concern the guy had was that my motor is only rated for 36/48 volts stock, but I didn't explain properly that it is going to be setup to handle more power. I think this could keep me content for a while, if it works out. What I really like is the wiring is really neat and simple. One regular contactor, and a simple switch for reverse. By comparison, Alltrax uses a mess of wires and extra components to accomplish the same thing on a Sep-Ex controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Zombie can get away with no transmission because he's running high voltage, which keeps amps down, plus he has a Zilla, so if the amps do go up it can deliver. A 120 volt pack is going to demand a lot more amperage than a 300+ pack. Because you're running a Sepex your controller options are limited to lower voltage so you may be crippling yourself with no transmission.
I see no benefit to running a transfer case instead of a transmission, since most t-cases that I know of can't shift between hi and lo on the fly, and they are usually pretty heavy. Plus if you use a transmission you can skip the reversing contactor and wiring.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh yeah, reversing a sepex would be simpler, never mind


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The Zombie can get away with no transmission because he's running high voltage... A 120 volt pack is going to demand a lot more amperage than a 300+ pack. Because you're running a Sepex your controller options are limited to lower voltage so you may be crippling yourself with no transmission...


I'm a little confused about the voltage thing, after reading this. From what Jim is saying in that thread, they are actually only pushing 160 volts through the motor. The excess voltage is to allow for sag at high current rates.

Another interesting tidbit: The guy I've been discussing this with from Kelly said, "We could build higher current controller, but it's a little bit complicated." I wonder if they might be up to building a custom SepEx race controller for me later. 

The one that's available now is the KDC12603. It's a 120v/600amp SepEx, and he said the armature driver is underrated and is actually more like 800 amps.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It is a bit confusing and I don't know exactly what they are doing but from the same thread:


> Let's look at John Wayland as an example though, when he launches White Zombie and asks the Zilla to give all it's got, his 360 volt battery pack sags to something like 160+- volts!


 That certainly sounds as if they are initially putting more than 160 to the motor, plus they use series parallel switching at some point in the run. I suppose you could ask Jim and see what he thinks.
One thing on the Kelly, historically they have not delivered higher than rated capacity, sometimes the opposite, though they may have improved things since the early days.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...I suppose you could ask Jim and see what he thinks...


That's actually what I plan to do. I am trying to think it through so that I ask pointed questions, and don't take up too much of his time. It's been a little over a month since I first asked him about building the motor (May 21st), and just a tad under a month since he confirmed that I have a SepEx motor (May 28th). He told me to ask for an update on the 11-inch GE he's building, plus more details on converting my motor to a series motor (something else he is currently looking into), at a later date.

My decision to keep experimenting with SepEx, or convert to series, depends on the potential of the motor itself. If the only limit is the controller and I can convince someone to build a monster SepEx controller, I am tempted to go that route. Otherwise, the Kelly would just be a mild performance, intermediate, step between the golf cart speed event cruiser and a Zilla-fied series monster.

I pulled the transmission earlier today just to help me rethink the car in direct-drive format. There is, of course, a huge difference in foot room in my cramped little cockpit without the transmission hump. The "shifter", which in this case would be an elaborate electrical switch would be moved to the dash freeing even more leg room. I haven't made a decision yet, just looking at my options.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...I suppose you could ask Jim and see what he thinks...


I asked a couple quick questions, that I had to have answers to for my design process. Before I get into that, let me first state that Jim has taken the time to answer all my questions, very promptly, even though he is busy with (currently) paying customers' projects. Too bad most businesses don't have this great level of customer service.





> Q - _Can a SepEx motor be built into a performance/race motor like the series motors you have built previously, or is there some limitation with the design itself that prevents producing the same hp/torque of a series motor? _
> 
> A - Yes, but to my knowlege there's not a high voltage controller out there to do it. By controlling the fields/arm seperately you can get better performance actually. This can be at the expense of extra armature/brush heat though so some caution urged.





> Q - _In a thread on the DIY forums you stated that these motors can't really handle more than 160 volts safely, and that when he "unleashes" the full power of the Zilla/battery pack in the White Zombie Datsun it actually sags to 160+- volts. Is the purpose of the 300+ volt battery pack just to ensure that a full 160 volts gets to the motor at high current rates?_
> 
> A - The zilla can limit the voltage you send to the motor. The lead packs will sag but also rise up again after the amps come down and this is where you need to limit the voltage to the motors or they will flash over.


 
So, here's where I am now:

*Stage One*
I will continue as planned, using the Alltrax series controller just to get the truck moving under its own power with a rheostat controlling the field.

*Stage Two*
I will probably purchase the Kelly SepEx controller (or something comparable), have the motor setup for 120+ volts, and start adding batteries. In this stage I plan to spend a lot of time with my laptop learning to program and explore the potential of my setup.

*Stage Three*
Take all of the knowledge and experience gained and convince someone to build me a "proper" SepEx race controller, similar to the Zilla. It's going to be expensive but that is the price of performance. If I would have went for the same performance goals with an ICE I would have at least $10K in the motor, another $3-5K for the ECU and harness I wanted, cooling system, exhaust, intake, etc.

The jury is still out on the transmission, but I do see your point JRP3. I have more number-crunching to do to make a decision.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jim is the best, over worked most of the time but always does his best to help when he can.
We didn't really get an answer on the actual voltage going to Wayland's motors, but I do know he used to put 180 volts to his ADC9 with no problems, I would think his custom Siamese 8's could take that and more, but who knows. Remember even if you set your controller to 200 volts or so the motor won't see that until you are at full throttle and by then the voltage would have sagged some so it will probably never see full voltage. Lithium should sag less of course bit it will still sag some on hard acceleration.
You might want to PM Tesseract here on the forums and see if he might be interested in doing a Sepex. He and Qer are developing a new controller that is supposed to rival the Zilla and might be able to mod one for your sepex setup. If there are a decent number of motors like yours floating around a high power Sepex controller would be a nice less expensive substitute for an AC setup.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...You might want to PM Tesseract here on the forums and see if he might be interested in doing a Sepex. He and Qer are developing a new controller that is supposed to rival the Zilla and might be able to mod one for your sepex setup...


Did that, thanks.  I think I am going to pursue this route, just have to convince someone of the merits of developing a high-power SepEx controller. Now that we know there are big 11-inch GE SepEx motors out there, and Jim has confirmed they have the potential...

On the transmission issue, I looked at the White Zombie's specs again and see where they are running the siamese 8s in series at launch, for massive torque, and then switching to parallel for the rest of the run. 4.10 rear gears would still allow nearly 100mph (theoretically), and the Inhaler will be lighter than his car, but I do have concerns about how much strain I would be putting on the pack to launch. A 6.00:1 or numerically higher rear gear would allow it to squirt out of the hole faster but limit top speed to around 60 mph.

I may end up keeping the transmission, and possibly even shifting it (2-3) for drag racing. I don't want a clutch though, so I would eventually purchase a dog-engagement race tranny that is made for full-power clutchless upshifts. I was right in my assumption that the 3spd transmission gives me the best of all worlds; and you were right that it may actually be needed, not just a fringe benefit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The moral of the story, today, is patience and persistence.

*Motor/controller*
Tesseract replied to my PM, and is possibly interested in developing a controller to allow me to build a high-performance SepEx. The possibility of interest from him, combined with the confirmation from Jim that it's possible (with a SepEx motor), has sold me on trying it. It gives me the hardcore low-end grunt of a DC motor, with more control, plus features like regen. That makes for a nice marketing tool.


*Shifty Business*
I am thinking about going the expensive route. I was using the old 3spd because I have it. The plan was to replace it with a 3spd, circle track, race tranny - about $1500. The problem is all the complications of properly linking motor and transmission (remember I plan to build massive torque eventually so that link has to be perfect).

What I'm thinking about is using a Gear Vendor's overdrive unit. It'll cost twice what the circle track trans would but is a far better choice. They're guaranteed for up to 1200hp, and proven in racing (they even have one in an EV racer). The design is planetary like an automatic, but totally self contained and efficient. They claim 1hp consumed per every 400 passed through it. Shifting between gears can be done anytime, and it is done electrically. The unit is small and neat (about 12.25" long), and weighs around 35-40lbs.

I would have mine built with a custom input shaft made that allows the unit to plug right onto the output shaft of my motor (more $$$), for a direct, precision, connection. I would develop a new drive end machined from aluminum that incorporates the rear motor-to-frame mounts, motor output shaft bearing race, and direct mounting pattern for the GV unit. From a CAD perspective, I wouldn't have any more time designing this setup than I would doing a precision coupler and adapter - possibly less. It would just take more money to accomplish overall.

To not let the project become stalled waiting for the budget to accommodate these new parts, I can run the motor direct drive for now and refrain from any displays of machismo until the time comes (patience, to do things right). To get to the point where I can play, I would just need to work harder and make more money (persistence, to realize the goals).

The only real issue is whether the GV unit gives enough. The overdrive ratio is .78:1. I could run a 5.13:1 rear gear for better acceleration and have a 4:1 at the click of a switch. The White Zombie Datsun runs a 4:10 (lead) or 3.70 (lithium) gear. Do you think, being hundreds of pounds lighter, having an 11-inch motor, and the 5:13 would be enough to not put too much stress on the batteries and controller when launching?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Have you looked at the threads discussing the race modified Powerglide setup? Might be a cheaper way to go, though a longer unit.
I guess a lot of it depends on what sort of RPM's your motor can handle, how wide the power band will be, and what overall speed range you want. A lot will also depend on your final choice for batteries. TS, SE cells 10C, 12C max respectively, A123 40C+ max, others in between. A 200 ah TS cell can give you a momentary 2000 amps, but that may be more ah capacity than you want to carry around if you're not that concerned with range, so you might need to go with a higher C rate cell to keep the pack smaller with the voltage high enough.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Have you looked at the threads discussing the race modified Powerglide setup? Might be a cheaper way to go, though a longer unit.
> I guess a lot of it depends on what sort of RPM's your motor can handle, how wide the power band will be, and what overall speed range you want. A lot will also depend on your final choice for batteries. TS, SE cells 10C, 12C max respectively, A123 40C+ max, others in between. A 200 ah TS cell can give you a momentary 2000 amps, but that may be more ah capacity than you want to carry around if you're not that concerned with range, so you might need to go with a higher C rate cell to keep the pack smaller with the voltage high enough.


Yeah, I am actually a Powerglide fan from way back, and I actually thought long and hard about using one. The problem is it takes a pretty good chunk of money to build one to handle the same power as the GV overdrive. By comparison, I would have a bulkier unit with a lot of added components to make it work. Building a full-race 'glide for the same cost as a GV overdrive would be a challenge too.

As far as the cost is concerned, I am going to shoot for what I really want (within reason) and figure out how to get it done. Custom vehicles are very expensive, I knew that going in because I do it for a living. I just have to come up with the money for the right stuff. I've been asking so many questions, and moving so slowly, because once the money is spent it's gone. You have to be as certain as possible, because the parts are worth half what they cost once they've been used.

I'm also trying to be smart by making sure I have a plan to use it as much as possible while it's being developed. That's the reason behind the forklift motor, instead of just taking in enough work to buy a Warp 11. I can spread that money around and actually drive the thing instead of staring at an expensive motor in the garage. I stopped buying car parts to rethink my plans, and get some other areas of my life on track. The current plan is to resume in a month or so. I am going to try for that first parking lot ride before summer is out though. I'm setting my sights on a few major shows in November (possibly just the chassis), March, and next July.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One thing about the Glide option is you could use a basic one to start, then just swap in a built one later on down the road. Another thing is you don't really need one to handle 1200lbs of torque, and since you aren't circle track racing whatever torque you do have will only be applied fairly momentarily.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> One thing about the Glide option is you could use a basic one to start, then just swap in a built one later on down the road. Another thing is you don't really need one to handle 1200lbs of torque, and since you aren't circle track racing whatever torque you do have will only be applied fairly momentarily.


They normally specify power handling in hp, because drag racers talk in hp more. GV and the race glides both say 1200hp. That figure is used because it's around the power levels of the fast Sportsman classes. That lets them know it'll handle what they've got.

I'm planning on punishing my car on autocross courses, and possibly a lap or two on short road courses, as well as drag racing. It's going to "feel" the effects of whatever torque this motor produces thoroughly!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My mistake on the torque, but I still don't think you'll see anywhere near 1200 hp either. Seems like overkill and I'm always looking for a way to save you money, but I can't stop you


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I really appreciate the effort, I am just more focused on achieving my goals than saving money. I don't want to waste any either, so I really consider every word of advice.

I wouldn't have made it this far without your help, so please keep it coming. I just use what works and try to learn something from every word.

Tesseract asked for more details on what Jim said about the SepEx, and on the motor itself, so he could bounce it around in his thinker (my words not his  )! Just the thought of having the setup I really want motivates me to make enough money to do it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Point of no return (for my old 3spd at least). The tailshaft housing of the 3spd is the length of the GV overdrive unit, so I decided to build a stand-in to help get the truck setup. Ideally, I would like to cut the shaft, as indicated below, and weld a splined hub on the end that would slip right on the motor's output shaft. Even though this is a temporary setup, I have concerns about what the welding process would do to the hardened steel shaft. I've heard it makes them brittle and prone to breakage near the weld. I have seen them welded before though, so I'll have to do some research and see what the machine shop says. If that doesn't work I can always have it machined for a keyway type coupler.








If you're wondering why I am going through all this instead of just running a driveshaft right off the back of the motor, it's to help get the chassis set up right. It's easier to provide the proper clearances and safety features if things are where they're going to be. My goal is to make the race setup, with the GV overdrive, a simple bolt-in replacement.

The next step is to get the tractor clutch or PTO disc for the splined hub and go knock on the machine shop door. When that's done I'll be able to put the two together and start designing the adapter.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm no metallurgist but I think there is a way to reheat and cool the shaft to avoid the brittleness.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm no metallurgist but I think there is a way to reheat and cool the shaft to avoid the brittleness.


A quick round of preliminary research confirms that. I'll do more research before going to the machine shop, just to make sure I know what they're talking about - the internet is awesome! 

I just ordered the Massey Fergusson PTO disc, for the splined hub, from ssbtractor.com. Called first to confirm they actually had them in stock, so I wouldn't be waiting endlesssly for a part they don't actually have/can't get. I'll call tomorrow and see if I can get a tracking number. So far I'm impressed with their service. They were attentive and helpful on the phone, and I received a confirmation email of the order within minutes of placing it. It says they, "strive to ship orders by the end of the next business day."

I tried to find the disc locally, so I could check the fit before purchasing but the only place that sold it was an hour away, and wanted over $150 - they didn't have it in stock either! I was going to make a clay mold of the shaft and a quick resin casting of it so I could check the fit - glad I called first. Now, I just have to keep my fingers crossed that this one fits, and will work.

Piece by itty-bitty piece


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Started blocking the chassis up so I can position, notch, and tack the front crossmember. The goal is to roll it outside and get a good look at it this month. I doubt I'll get much done this week with the 4th being this weekend.








The cardboard mock-up shows the size the grille will be. I know a rounded, aero, nose would be more EV-ish; but there's not really a lot of frontal area there. I am trying to make everything on the car functional, and the plan is for the grille to be a heat sink. It is sized to allow a Zilla sized controller to mount to the inside of it. From the outside, it'll look like a black anodized billet grille, with the cooling fins serving as the billet grille bars.

SSBTractor.com emailed me the tracking number yesterday. The PTO disc is en route, and scheduled to be here Friday. I just hope it gets here before too late Friday - there's a huge celebration called Red, White, & Boom in downtown Columbus that I must attend! *250,000* of my family and friends will be there!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume you're keeping the motor close to the controller so that wire lengths are short?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I assume you're keeping the motor close to the controller so that wire lengths are short?


Yup, as you instructed.  It's just a few inches from the front of the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Is this a safe way to bench test my (sepex) motor?

Nevermind, I found this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bench-test-sepex-motori-24515.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Pictures were down for a while earlier while I did some work on my site. I had a note in this post advising anyone who peeked in this thread why the little red Xs were there, in place of the pictures. Now that the pics are back up, I figured I'd make use of the post with the latest art rendering...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The PTO disc arrived Friday, on schedule. All my nervouness over whether it would fit faded into the sunset. It's a perfect fit on the motor shaft! I was in a hurry to get to Red, White, & Boom (Columbus' fireworks show) - I'll get some better pics tomorrow.








As a bonus, the hub is riveted on, meaning I don't have to cut it out and turn it down. Actually this gives me the opportunity to avoid all welding on the coupler. I can have the "transmission" shaft turned down, and a keyway cut in it. Follow that with a sprocket turned down to accept the PTO hub (bolted or riveted) and I have a quick coupler. If you look back at the pic of the transmission shaft you'll see that it's diamter increases in front of the bearing race. If I make the sprocket hub press-fit from the back (before the bearing is pressed on) I can leave a flange on the end that will prevent the hub from being able to move. It'll be trapped between the bearing and the flange, so I don't have to worry about set screws working loose.

Since this is just a temporary setup to help me get the rest of the vehicle ironed out, until I can get to the GV overdrive unit, I have some ideas to make sure I don't introduce any bind on the motor shaft. The PTO hub fits perfectly but is a typical clutch type slip fit, meaning there is a little slop in it. Next I am going to see if I can find a spherical bearing to fit in place of the plain roller bearing that came off the transmission shaft. That would compensate for any misalignment. The rear end of the shaft basically floats in the housing to allow the driveshaft yoke to slip over it (and back and forth along the shaft as the suspension moves).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Another blurry pic of the PTO disc on the motor shaft. Sorry about the picture quality, these will have to do though until I get a better camera in a month or so.








I've been thinking about the adapter plate since I finally saw the PTO disc, and after watching m38mike's progress on his Willys. I was set on a one-piece adapter but now I am thinking about a 1.5" (total thickness) main plate on the motor, with a recess for a second adapter for the transmission. That way I could machine an adapter to fit the stand-in transmission piece now, and a new one for the GV unit later. The mounting holes in the main plate would be threaded to allow the trans adapter to just bolt on. The recess would positively register either trans adapter. Hope that all makes sense.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I have a plan I like I can start developing the CAD models. This one won't be used for machining, it's just to illustrate how the coupler is supposed to work. These parts can be done with manual machine work. I didn't add the mounting holes for the splined hub yet. I'll do that when I model it.








I found a sprocket at McMaster that has the right specs. Just have to remove the sprocket, and cut it down to lighten it a little. It says ships within two weeks so I will probably order it soon and hope it gets here by the end of this month / early next month. That would put it right on track for when I hope to have the adapter plates modeled and ready to be cut. Maybe I'll get to take that first parking lot cruise in August.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Are you planning to buy a sprocket and cut the hub out ??
Any use for the sprocket ??

If not, go to Surplus Center and buy just the size hub you need ? If I misunderstood your plan, just ignore my post


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harold in CR said:


> Are you planning to buy a sprocket and cut the hub out ??
> Any use for the sprocket ??
> 
> If not, go to Surplus Center and buy just the size hub you need ? If I misunderstood your plan, just ignore my post


Yeah, I'm just cutting the hub out, and have no use for the sprocket afterwards. Maybe I'll make a clock for my garage.  The sprocket itself is 11.43" in diameter!

You didn't misunderstand, I didn't include all the details. The bore size is huge - 1.375". I wanted the bore size that big so that I could turn the tranmission shaft down a little to receive it, leave a collar on the end to "trap" the hub, and not take away the shoulder that positively locates the tranmission shaft main bearing.

The other important factor is the hub is 4.0" in diameter. That was necesary to have enough surface area to countersink the splined PTO hub into it. That hub is 3.882" in diameter right now, I am going to turn it down to 3.750" to ensure concentricity, and to fit it in the recess of the sprocket hub.

I couldn't find a stand alone hub that big, and machining this one down will be pretty easy as it's not hardened steel. I am attempting to take advantage of the opportunity to bolt and press this entire assembly together. The penalty is a little extra weight. The benefit is it eliminates heat treating, welding, more machine work, etc.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I made some revisions to the design. First, I decided to install the keyway hub onto the shaft from the front, instead of from the back of the shaft with the bearing. I wanted to preserve the shoulder the bearing's inner race rides against and use that to also provide clearance between the bearing's outer race and the keyway hub. A groove will be machined on the front edge for an external retaining ring to lock the keyway hub place.

I also changed the recess in the front of the keyway hub hat positively locates the splined hub. The splined hub already has a register for the PTO's abrasive disc. This eliminates the need for any machine work on the splined hub.








The mounting holes in the keyway hub would actually be threaded. I didn't put threads in the model to save time.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice! Just so I'm clear, you will have a press fit for the keyed hub on the trans shaft, with a lock ring on the end just in case?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice! Just so I'm clear, you will have a press fit for the keyed hub on the trans shaft, with a lock ring on the end just in case?


Thanks, and yup - press-fit keyed hub; lock ring to double check it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What Brown did for me - steering rack arrived today.








I went and bought some bolts, so I could stick it on the chassis, but I didn't want to take a chance on bumping the crossmember out of position. It's notched and ready to be welded in. I think that is going to happen before the month is out, after I go over the measurements one last time, and order a few more pieces I need. All the fuss is about getting the suspension set up properly so that incremental improvements will be possible with bolt-on parts later.

After more research, I've decided to run direct-drive - no tranmission, no Gear Vendors overdrive unit. Just a single driveshaft from motor to the rear end, the sole gear reduction. Next month the motor goes in the chassis, a driveshaft will be made to hook it up to the rear-end, and I'll be a few batteries away from that first parking lot chassis ride!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I ordered some tabs for the lower control arm rear mounts, hub for the steering wheel, some gussets, etc. Tracking says the big brown truck should be here tomorrow. I'll start fitting some of the pieces over the weekend and probably start welding next week. I also ordered an NHRA rule book, because pretty much everything else I put on the chassis has to be done in accordance with the rules.

In the midst of mentally, digitally, and graphically, putting this thing together and taking it back apart - repeat a 1000 times - I realized something; an Evnetics controller won't fit on the grille/heat sink. I'm going to ask Tesseract about it to be certain but, based on the size he gave in response to JRP3's question about it, I may have to rethink my design...


Tesseract said:


> Big and heavy?
> 
> Without the mounting plate (size not yet determined) it is approx. 18.5" long by 7.75" wide by 4.5" tall (not including the fans, especially since they might get thicker). It weighs about 28 lbs as of now. I definitely wouldn't want to drop it on my foot!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The BMF is not going to come close to fitting on my heat sink grille, and Tesseract reminded me that there is no need for extra cooling. It has liquid cooling and fans from the factory. I have to figure out a new location for the controller. I'm going to make a 3D model to work with in the chassis model, and a full-scale model to test with and build around on the actual car. I'm hoping it'll fit beside the motor, over the frame rail.

Building from scratch is very interesting because you have to try and anticipate and incorporate so many things. With a conversion, you just have to arrange things in the pre-existing space. It's not always easy to work around ICE engineering, but you just accept the things you can't change and move on. If I don't work through every issue, the final project will look like a poor design effort because this is what it was supposed to be. Since this is what I do, _everything_ is supposed to fit together and work together in perfect harmony.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Last night, I did quick poster board and cardboard mock-ups of the motor and controller. There is absolutely no way possible to mount the controller anywhere near the motor, without killing the overall design of the vehicle. Compounding the problem is the fact that the future 2K-amp version of the BMF (the one I'm really planning around) is going to be even bigger than the 1K.

The first pic isn't a location test - it's to show how massive the BMF is going to be! Normally controllers look small next to the motor, but the BMF is not intimidated, in the least, by my big GE! 
























This means the only way I can use an Evnetics controller is to put it in the back, near the batteries, with a long cable run to the motor. I asked Tesseract about this and he said, "Not so bad...No big deal." He said they are actually using 8ft controller to motor cables for their dyno pulls.

Back on track. Waiting for UPS right now...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

UPS finally arrived. The lower control arm mounts, a steering hub, two .250"-thick straps to use as mock-up struts on the front suspension, and some gussets.








The control arm mounts are 4-link brackets and, after a little trimming to fit the frame rails, they'll be perfect. I ordered them with .625" holes for the size rod ends I'll use on the tubular arms I plan to build. I'll use bushings in the mounting holes, and drill the control arm bushing for .500" bolts for now. Just two quick cuts on each one, and they'll be ready to weld.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

looking good! i find it ironic/funny that you have a pic of a fan on th ebox you used to mock up the radiator shell.
i thought it was funny anyhow 
keep it up man


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is it possible to move the motor rearward a bit and instead of mounting the controller vertically in front of it mount it at an angle, tipping either forward or backward?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fritzgutten said:


> looking good! i find it ironic/funny that you have a pic of a fan on th ebox you used to mock up the radiator shell.
> i thought it was funny anyhow
> keep it up man


Thanks fritz! I thought about that when i saw the pictures, and it is ironic. I was so focused on building my little cardboard mock-up that I didn't even see it when I first made it ( a few weeks ago, I think). Just keepin my cool dude! 

I'm enjoying that trike build too. I love fabrication and seeing pics like your swingarm coming together helps keep me motivated to get to some of the real goodies on this project. 



JRP3 said:


> Is it possible to move the motor rearward a bit and instead of mounting the controller vertically in front of it mount it at an angle, tipping either forward or backward?


Not even a chance. The 1K controller is 8 inches higher or wider (depending on what orientation you try to mount it) than the grille shell and front of the hood. The 2K version will be even bigger.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm absorbing the NHRA Rulebook right now, and making changes to my design to conform. This will delay my welding plans for a bit, but will be worth every second. The rulebooks are only $10, and I strongly advise anyone even remotely considering future drag racing plans to get one. To my surprise, they have dedicated sections for "ELECTRIC-POWERED VEHICLE" (SECTION 4I) and "ELECTRIC-POWERED MOTORCYCLE" (SECTION 4J). The motorcycle section just parrots a couple items from the EV section, but the EV section has some specific requirements. For instance, you can't use floodies and the batteries have to be located and secured in a specific manner... You can always get around them by racing at a non-sanctioned facility, but these rules are designed to keep you (and everyone else around) alive and safe in the event something goes wrong.

I am seriously considering changing the main body of my truck from a roadster to a closed-cab design. Everything else would be basically the same. This would allow me to meet the requirements for a roll cage much easier, and without affecting the vehicle's aesthetics. I had some ideas for a bolt-in cage that could eventually be approved for increased performance, but that also means the chassis wouldn't be as rigid when it wasn't bolted up. Having a permanent, full cage, would mean better performance - at any given time.

I plan to do some autocross racing, as well as drag racing, so a rigid chassis is crucial.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Same grille, hood, and fenders, but I changed the main body to a '25 Ford Closed Cab truck design. This, as previously mentioned, allows me to run a full, welded, cage. The body and cage are designed for the body to fit like a skin over the cage, allowing the required clearances inside in a really small package. The roof is supposed to have a sliding black rag center panel, but I don't have time to do it right now. I'm going to add it in the opened position - bunched up in the back - when I get to it.

I usually don't like roll cages in pick-ups because the rear braces have to poke through the back window and "hang in mid-air" all the way back to the wheels. My rear braces will be really short and close to the cab. Painted black they should be barely noticeable.

I went with a total black-out treatment, including black wood, to give it a meaner image. I finally added headlights! They're custom miniature, HID, versions of a vintage headlight called a Woodlite.

I have a few more technical details to work through on the chassis, and I should be able to *finally* do some welding...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Neat. Any chance you could throw some rake into the windshield and lose the "eyebrow" over hang for a semblance of aero?


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

a brick is a brick, i dont care how you rake the windshield 
with those fenders, the box and cab layout, i'm not sure how much could be gained, I think it would come down to pure frontal area. dont really know though, but I have a feeling todd isnt going to care to much about the aero.
should be a pretty sweet ride at any rate.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Neat. Any chance you could throw some rake into the windshield and lose the "eyebrow" over hang for a semblance of aero?





fritzgutten said:


> a brick is a brick, i dont care how you rake the windshield
> with those fenders, the box and cab layout, i'm not sure how much could be gained, I think it would come down to pure frontal area


I have some ideas, but it'll be a little bit before I can get to them. I just needed to do the closed cab rendering to see if the idea would work at all, so I could finish designing the chassis. Now that I know I can go with a full cage, I have a lot of freedom in my "wretched excess" planning! 

This thing is much, much, smaller than it seems from the rendering. The actual frontal area is going to be pretty small. What the eyes see can be deceiving. When I finish my design work, the goal is to make you see a brick and the rapidly flowing atmosphere around it "see" paths of low resistance.

For what can't be overcome with aero trickery, having enough torque to rapidly move a vehicle with twice the mass should help. 



fritzgutten said:


> ...but I have a feeling todd isnt going to care to much about the aero...


Insert "evil grin" and "thumbsup" emoticons here! 



fritzgutten said:


> ...should be a pretty sweet ride at any rate.


Thanks Fritz. I'll almost feel sorry for it though, when I finally get a 2K controller, full-race motor, and hopefully some A123s...


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

sounds dangerously fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A quick rear three-quarter-view sketch, that will be the basis for a full-color rendering later.








The roll cage rear braces are exactly as I had imagined them. I actually like them on this truck (I usually hate seeing them on pickups). The taillights are 37 Ford lenses with custom buckets and stands. The rag top is open in this view. I think I am going to "close it" for contrast in the front three-quarter-view rendering. I added some curves and turned the shipping crate into more of a vintage trunk. Notice she's a little fat in the hips? That's so she can do the twist! 

I’ve decided that nothing will satisfy me but A123s. They’re the only currently available batteries that meet my criteria for weight, size, and performance. With them, I can keep all the major components inside the wheelbase, for a low polar moment. That wheelbase is approximately 91-inches, and with all the mass pretty evenly distributed inside the four wheels I expect handling to be “enjoyable”. I’ll just have to run in low power mode until I have enough set aside for a decent A123 pack.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

looking pretty good man, when you gonna put down that pencil and weld some steel already? 

liking the style, should be interesting to see an electric classic with all the features youre adding.
sounds like the bat pack may be a while in comming, thats spendy!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fritzgutten said:


> looking pretty good man, when you gonna put down that pencil and weld some steel already? ...


Thanks fritz! As soon as I am sure I am welding the right suff together! I hate doing things twice, especially when you have to cut and burn them apart to redo them. I also have the added incentive of living to tell about the experience!  I should be a matter of days away from sparks and fumes though...

I've moved things around quite a bit since I first set them up to be welded, so I am glad I learned to excercise a little patience before picking up the tools.  The latest thing I found out, from looking at my sketches and doing some real-scale mock-ups, is there was no way even I (5'4"/125lbs) was going to fit through that little door - especially with the roll cage door bar bisecting the opening! As I have said before, the pictures don't accurately convey how compact the Inhaler really is. The solution I came up with is pretty trick - most of the side of the cab will swing open. I had always intended for the bodywork to just be a composite skin over the chassis, and this feeds right into that.



fritzgutten said:


> ...sounds like the bat pack may be a while in comming, thats spendy!


I'll be stepping my way up to it, so there will still be some fun in the meantime. I may be able to squeeze half the power in with LiFePo4s, while I save up for the A123s. That would still be a lot of fun - just not the blistering drag strip runs I look forward to.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

wow, cant wait to see this come together then, make sure to post plenty of in progress pics


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The drawings look great!

You could so a swing-out side bar. You drop in pins to fix it for racing, and even without pins it provides some side impact protection. Check your favorite racing associations first to make sure it's legal.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest looking at racing rules for roll bars -- it's good safety advice even if you don't race. For instance, you need I think 30 degrees for the rear stays. I summarized some of the rules on my web page http://explodingdinosaurs.com/rollbar .

Just my thing, but I think roll bars look great! 


toddshotrods said:


> Thanks fritz! As soon as I am sure I am welding the right suff together! I hate doing things twice, especially when you have to cut and burn them apart to redo them. I also have the added incentive of living to tell about the experience!  I should be a matter of days away from sparks and fumes though...
> 
> I've moved things around quite a bit since I first set them up to be welded, so I am glad I learned to excercise a little patience before picking up the tools.  The latest thing I found out, from looking at my sketches and doing some real-scale mock-ups, is there was no way even I (5'4"/125lbs) was going to fit through that little door - especially with the roll cage door bar bisecting the opening! As I have said before, the pictures don't accurately convey how compact the Inhaler really is. The solution I came up with is pretty trick - most of the side of the cab will swing open. I had always intended for the bodywork to just be a composite skin over the chassis, and this feeds right into that.
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The drawings look great!
> 
> You could so a swing-out side bar. You drop in pins to fix it for racing, and even without pins it provides some side impact protection. Check your favorite racing associations first to make sure it's legal.
> 
> ...


Thanks David! With the small door, I couldn't meet NHRA specs for a swing-out door bar. The rear pivot point has to be within six inches of the rear main hoop. On the small door version I was at least a foot away from the main hoop, at the back of the door. I can easily work my way in around a fixed door bar with the new plan, but I might see if I can have swing-out bars to make ingress/egress easier for people of normal statures. I might find me a 72"+ tall supermodel to ride along. I need to update my side-view drawing to see where the rear pivot would be now. I have many, many, sketches and drawings. 

Swing-out door bars are legal down to 8.50 in the NHRA, if done properly. They don't mandate it but the trick to a really strong swing-out bar is to add a half-round steel support behind the door bars. That way, the force of the impact doesn't fall on two pins.

I share your love for roll bars. In my case I am head-over-heels for the look of a full race cage with bars everywhere. In the designs, mine is tucked really tight against the body, so you'll only get hints of it from the outside. With a door open, it will start to become obvious that I have racing in mind but you'll still have to look for the bars to find them all.




I really tried to challenge myself with this build.

It has to be really small to make it as much an art piece as it is a car. This will allow me to exhibit it in places and circumstances where a normal car wouldn't "_fit_".
It has to be a serious race car, disguised as a vintage street rod. Kind of like the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, but like one who forgot a piece or two of his costume! On first glance, you just know something isn't right with that fellow!
Every single piece has to work and fit like it was actually designed to be there - like a production car.
It has to have the quality of a hand-built luxury exotic when finally finished.
That's why it's taking so long to start welding. The biggest challenge is the wheelbase. Getting the Fiero front suspension properly setup with the foundation for good geometry was annoying and time-consuming. Making everything fit inside that 91" wheelbase, and narrow street rod body, is the most invigorating challenge I have ever taken on in nearly three decades of doing this stuff! I am having fun now! I think I am also reasonably satisfied that I won't have to move the front wheels, which is why the sparks should fly soon...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After another look at the rules, I don't think I can use a swing-out door bar at all. It's legal on an OEM, full-bodied, vehicle down, for 8.50 and slower. I think they're counting on the vehicle's sheetmetal to provide additional side-impact protection.

Since the Inhaler's body is just a skin over the chassis, the caged chassis provides all the protection and that would leave the entire side-impact issue to two pins!  I don't think I would want swing-out bars, even if they are legal. The peace of mind from knowing those bars are fully welded in, is worth the hassle of contorting my way over them into the truck.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Could you share some info about the clutch disc seen a few pages back? The model number would be great, or perhaps which year/model it would have been for. I've got the same motor. Thanks in advance!

PS - keep up the good work, I like it. I don't think most people realize that 90% of the work involved in any custom creation happens before the first weld is ever made. By my math you're practically almost finished


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Could you share some info about the clutch disc seen a few pages back? The model number would be great, or perhaps which year/model it would have been for. I've got the same motor. Thanks in advance!
> 
> PS - keep up the good work, I like it. I don't think most people realize that 90% of the work involved in any custom creation happens before the first weld is ever made. By my math you're practically almost finished


Thanks AmpEater! I like your math!  It's a PTO disc for a Massey Fergusson tractor. Here's the link to what I bought, and where I bought it.

I just wish I could share everything that's in my head or on the drawing board for this vehicle - like right now! Patience though, we'll get there; painfully slow step by step.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

still with us Todd?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You're darn tootin' I'm still with ya! Had some career decisions to make and discussions that needed to happen with the two shops that will be helping me. That's all out of the way now.

One shop is a community workshop that has a decent complement of metalworking tools, including CNC mill, welders, plasma cutters, grinders, etc. I need that one most because I don't want to create the racket necessary in an apartment garage. My neighbors aren't always as considerate, but I live by my own standards. The other shop is a full service machine shop/race engine shop with CNC, CMM, lathe, etc.

It's coming...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anyone here have the time and willingness to help me with some hard numbers. I need to figure out exactly what I would need in an A123 battery pack, and then figure out what other combinations will fit in that space as intermediate solutions. If I had the time I would learn how to do it myself, but I can't find enough time to do what's already on my plate.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey, 
great to hear, hope the career decisions are working out for ya.
whats the name of the community workshop you're talking about?
sorry i didnt respond more quickly, but i had to make a 48hr road trip...ugh 
DONT EVER drive from Iowa to Virginia and back non stop!!!!

Good to hear you're stil in it, sorry i cant really help with your energy numbers, but i'm in the same place you are as far as that goes.

Make sure to keep us updated!
fred


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I need to figure out exactly what I would need in an A123 battery pack, and then figure out what other combinations will fit in that space as intermediate solutions.


I think we need a bit more specific info, pack voltage, amp draw, desired range.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I think we need a bit more specific info, pack voltage, amp draw, desired range.


330-360 volts, 2000 amps, I wouldn't cry if the range is only 5-10 miles. If it ends up having more range I'll use it, but this is a street-legal race car. Most of the non-competitive driving will be to show off the truck, and I can adjust my plans according to what's available.

What's most important is that I have the power for autocross and drag racing. Drag racing is obviously a matter of seconds, with foot to the floor asking for everything the pack and controller can shove through the motor. I can't imagine an autocross course taking longer than a minute. The one I watched in July had Pro Touring style muscle cars completing the course in 32-40 seconds. I expect the Inhaler to be faster, but also allow me to keep my foot in it more than they could due to the size and weight of their vehicles. They had the suspension setups, but their mass prevented them from being able to fully ultilize it on such a short twisty course. I just explained all that to try and illustrate how I plan to use the truck.

I am expecting the race-ready wieght to be under 1500lbs. The suspension setup will allow maximum transfer of torque so my right foot will be very aggressive.

Keywords : wretched excess, violent, brutal, aggressive, uncompromising...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's what I get. A123 26650 cell, 3.3 volts, 2.3ah, 70 grams each. 
http://www.a123systems.com/products
Lets say a 40C max to hit 2000 amps, you need a 50ah pack, divided by 2.3 = 22 cells in parallel. Then we take 360 volts divided by 3.3 volts = 109 cells in series. 22p times 109s = 2398 cells, 370lbs. At $7 per cell that's $16,786, adjust according to taste. That gives you a lot more range than you need but allows 2000 amps without killing the cells, you could push a smaller pack to 50C and higher occasionally I think so depending on how much time you actually spend at 2000 amps you could go with fewer cells in parallel. Someone can check my math.


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

math looks good add more weight for connections etc and hours and hours and hours of assembly time for the cells. BMS???? Also what ever you do maximize the voltage to the last volt that all components will accept. Voltage is your best friend.

Brian


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

It's important to remember that you don't need 2000 battery amps to get 2000 motor amps. You're never going to see 2000A and 360v at the motor simultaneously. At lower speeds (and therefore motor voltage) the controller 'converts" voltage into current. 2000 motor amps at 180 volts would only take 1000A from a 360v pack.

If you're basing the battery pack size purely around the peak output required in a sprint then any additional capacity over what you can realistically draw is only going to slow you down due to added weight.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At full throttle the pack will sag quite a bit and at full out the controller is no longer modulating but passing full power, minus losses. I would think at that point the pack could be putting out the full amp draw.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> At full throttle the pack will sag quite a bit and at full out the controller is no longer modulating but passing full power, minus losses. I would think at that point the pack could be putting out the full amp draw.


That's true. My understanding is that at ~50C the a123 cells sag to around 2.5v. So a 360v nominal pack would sag to 272v.

I would assume that by the time you get to 100% pwm duty cycle the back emf of the motor would be high enough that you would no longer be pulling a full 2000A. 

I also think that with a 1500lb vehicle it would be difficult to find enough traction to fully load the motor. Seems like the wheels would start spinning before you ever loaded it down enough to pull 2000A. 

I'm off to do some calcs to see how many Gs that kind of torque in a 1500lb vehicle would yield.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> I would assume that by the time you get to 100% pwm duty cycle the back emf of the motor would be high enough that you would no longer be pulling a full 2000A.
> 
> I also think that with a 1500lb vehicle it would be difficult to find enough traction to fully load the motor. Seems like the wheels would start spinning before you ever loaded it down enough to pull 2000A.


Good points. A smaller pack sized so that 50C gets near 2000 amps would probably be plenty since it would rarely see that much if ever. That would save you about $4K and some weight.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help here. I haven't been posting because I started a new job and moved to a new apartment this week, so my schedule has been crazy.

A couple quick points for now, and I'll be back with more thoughts and info soon.


$16K doesn't scare me. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes... At that price point I would have the same in my batteries, bms, dc-dc, motor, controller, etc as some of the guys I know running street-legal ICE combinations have in their dino fuel powertrains. Performance comes with a price.
Putting full torque down with only 1500lbs is just a matter of weight distribution, weight transfer, suspension, and tires. I have taken all of that into account. There won't be wasted energy in crazy wheelspin, etc.
Be back soon...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> 330-360 volts, 2000 amps, I wouldn't cry if the range is only 5-10 miles. If it ends up having more range I'll use it, but this is a street-legal race car. Most of the non-competitive driving will be to show off the truck, and I can adjust my plans according to what's available.
> 
> What's most important is that I have the power for autocross and drag racing. Drag racing is obviously a matter of seconds, with foot to the floor asking for everything the pack and controller can shove through the motor. I can't imagine an autocross course taking longer than a minute. The one I watched in July had Pro Touring style muscle cars completing the course in 32-40 seconds. I expect the Inhaler to be faster, but also allow me to keep my foot in it more than they could due to the size and weight of their vehicles. They had the suspension setups, but their mass prevented them from being able to fully ultilize it on such a short twisty course. I just explained all that to try and illustrate how I plan to use the truck.
> 
> ...



15 parallel, 112 series = 1680 cells

- 34,5Ah

- 13,3 kWh

- Continuous 1035Amp (370 kW)*

- Peak 2070Amp (741kW)*

- 117kg

My pack will look like this ^^

A smaller and cheaper pack:

9p X 112s = 1008

- 20,7Ah

- 7,4 kWh

- Continuous 621 Amp (230 kW)*

- Peak 1242 Amp (469 kW)*

- 70.5 kg

** I calculated the kW ratings without counting in voltage sag


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cro your first pack will be pushing 60C to get that amperage which is probably going to shorten the pack life, not to mention the voltage sag.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Here's what I get. A123 26650 cell, 3.3 volts, 2.3ah, 70 grams each.
> http://www.a123systems.com/products
> Lets say a 40C max to hit 2000 amps, you need a 50ah pack, divided by 2.3 = 22 cells in parallel. Then we take 360 volts divided by 3.3 volts = 109 cells in series. 22p times 109s = 2398 cells, 370lbs. At $7 per cell that's $16,786, adjust according to taste. That gives you a lot more range than you need but allows 2000 amps without killing the cells, you could push a smaller pack to 50C and higher occasionally I think so depending on how much time you actually spend at 2000 amps you could go with fewer cells in parallel. Someone can check my math.





JRP3 said:


> At full throttle the pack will sag quite a bit and at full out the controller is no longer modulating but passing full power, minus losses. I would think at that point the pack could be putting out the full amp draw.





JRP3 said:


> Good points. A smaller pack sized so that 50C gets near 2000 amps would probably be plenty since it would rarely see that much if ever. That would save you about $4K and some weight.


I actually like the first pack JRP3 put together. I am off all weekend, so I will have a chance to model the packs and see how I can package them. Figuring about 400-450lbs, with all the hardware and carbon composite cases, that gives me an estimated total vehicle weight around 1300-1400lbs. I should be able to meet my 1500lb goal with me (125lbs) strapped in!  The larger pack means more abuse time.


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## JJosh (Oct 23, 2008)

http://gadgets.infoniac.com/top-10-futuristic-car-designs.html



i know you made a render that looks good but thought you might like the gentleman's race on this list as it has the same idea future-ise(how ever its spelt) a classic look


just thought id add im not saying your design is crap or anything if anything id say you were talented at drawing/rendering but you might want to take some ideas from it


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Good news on my end too! I just did some more research into the motor's 1-5/8" x 25T splined output shaft and found out that some Ford tractors use this pattern for the clutch disc, and some Massey Fergusons have a rigid PTO disc with it. Online the Massey disc was $43.55, and the Ford's was $63. I am going to check with some local places and see if I can just pick one up. Swing by the parts store on the way home and grab a Chevy clutch disc and I am on my way to coupling motor and transmission.


Hi Todd,

I am considering a new build and I'm trying to find the easiest way to build the motor to transmission coupler for a splined shaft and I stumbled on your thread. 

You seem to be pretty much the only person who kept the splines and used a PTO disc, so I was wondering how it went and if you thought this should be a pretty easily replicable procedure.

I was also wondering how I could go to measure a splined shaft and how you found the corresponding PTO on ssbtractor.com or anywhere...


Thanks!
Simon


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

bazou said:


> Hi Todd,
> 
> I am considering a new build and I'm trying to find the easiest way to build the motor to transmission coupler for a splined shaft and I stumbled on your thread.
> 
> ...


Hey Simon, I used a caliper to measure the overall diameter of the shaft. Just squeeze it snug on the shaft and "walk it around" to make sure you're getting an accurate measurement. My GE was a hair under 1.625". The I counted the splines. I actually counted the teeth facing out (25 in my case). That gave the 1.625 x 25-teeth. I Googled 1.625" x 25T and every other way I could think to word it until I happened across the ssbtractor.com site, and the discs that fit my shaft.

The only problem with this is these discs (PTO and clutch) are slip-fit, which means they have slop. They're not press-fit, which is preferred for a motor-to-hub coupler. I never decided on a solution for this as I decided to run direct (no transmission). That means my slip-fit hub is perfect for my application, as it will be on the end of a driveshaft.

Another option is to find the part of the forklift truck that the motor shaft plugged into.

Good luck, and just ask if you have any other questions.


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Simon, I used a caliper to measure the overall diameter of the shaft. Just squeeze it snug on the shaft and "walk it around" to make sure you're getting an accurate measurement. My GE was a hair under 1.625". The I counted the splines. I actually counted the teeth facing out (25 in my case). That gave the 1.625 x 25-teeth. I Googled 1.625" x 25T and every other way I could think to word it until I happened across the ssbtractor.com site, and the discs that fit my shaft.
> 
> The only problem with this is these discs (PTO and clutch) are slip-fit, which means they have slop. They're not press-fit, which is preferred for a motor-to-hub coupler. I never decided on a solution for this as I decided to run direct (no transmission). That means my slip-fit hub is perfect for my application, as it will be on the end of a driveshaft.
> 
> ...


Hey Todd. Thanks for the answer, this makes everything much clearer.

Again, this might be because I'm a newbie or a language barrier, but I'm not sure what you mean by ' has a slop' ? 

My guess is that slip fit will be the exact same size, meaning it will easily 'slide out' of the shaft, while the 'press fit' will be a bit smaller, say 0.3mm, and will need to be hammered in.

Right?

Thanks
Simon


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Simon, you are correct - _slip fit_ has enough clearance for the assembly to slide freely (about 0.05mm) while _press fit_ is an interference fit (0.02 - 0.05mm). 0.3mm interference on a 42mm shaft would be a _shrink fit_, meaning that the outside piece needs to be heated to expand enough to fit onto the shaft.

Just a note - NEVER hammer against the end of the motor shaft. Google "brinelled bearings" to find out why.

Later,
Keith


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## bazou (Sep 11, 2009)

kek_63 said:


> Simon, you are correct - _slip fit_ has enough clearance for the assembly to slide freely (about 0.05mm) while _press fit_ is an interference fit (0.02 - 0.05mm). 0.3mm interference on a 42mm shaft would be a _shrink fit_, meaning that the outside piece needs to be heated to expand enough to fit onto the shaft.
> 
> Just a note - NEVER hammer against the end of the motor shaft. Google "brinelled bearings" to find out why.
> 
> ...


Thanks Keith for the precision!
Point taken, no hammering


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JJosh said:


> ...just thought id add im not saying your design is crap or anything if anything id say you were talented at drawing/rendering but you might want to take some ideas from it


Hey thanks for the link JJosh. Sorry it took me so long to reply - I'm adjusting to juggling for someone else, working for myself, and going to school, so time to read and post has been pretty much non-existent.

That's what the delay is on the project guys. I just haven't had time to do anything more than think about what I want to do with the Inhaler. The chassis has been sitting for weeks ready and waiting to be welded; and I have the connections set up to get the fab and machine work rolling. The fact that I decided to get a new townhome hasn't exactly been kind to the project budget either. Now I have an empty apartment begging for furniture...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, I didn't realize it has been almost a month since I posted anything. Hmmm, it's been over a month since I did any work on the Inhaler.  I'm still trying to adjust to full-time work/full-time school, plus trying to work on getting my own business reset for when the economy picks up.

Since time is basically nonexistent, I am thinking about just ordering a fiberglass body and concentrating my efforts on the chassis and EV powertrain. It's looking like November or December before I get back to actually working on it. Maybe by Christmas I can have the chassis welded up, and rolling around, then order the body parts sometime in January, February, or March...

Sorry it's taking so long. With the economy like it is I figured I would be stupid not to capitalize on the opportunity to make and save some money. It isn't exactly raining jobs right now, and this one just kind of fell in my lap.

More to come...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

No problem over here, anyway... it gives us more time to design the field control module.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> No problem over here, anyway... it gives us more time to design the field control module.


That gives me motivation to save! As I've mentioned in PMs with you before - there's no rush on my part. I have a space permanently reserved in the design in for a blue anodized billet Soliton.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> No problem over here, anyway... it gives us more time to design the field control module.


Ah, so you're actually working on it? I may have to pick up one of these motors for a future project if there will definitely be a Sepex Soliton available.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just bumping the thread, in preparation for resuming work soon. I was trying to find this thread to glance over it and see where I left off but it was so far back that I couldn't find it! I had to do a search!

The good news is I am still determined to finish the Inhaler. I've been experimenting with different body styles trying to find something that I could just order, modify a little, and install - as opposed to making everything from scratch. So far, nothing matches the closed cab theme. I'm considering doing CAD models for the body parts, having foam cores CNC-cut and skinning them with carbon fiber and Kevlar. That would drastically cut my work time down. Letting computers and machinery do the hard work is the next best thing to just ordering stuff.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Have you touched base with B.C. here? (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/member.php?u=8589 aka from contact info http://www.spiritcars.com/)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Have you touched base with B.C. here? (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/member.php?u=8589 aka from contact info http://www.spiritcars.com/)


No I haven't, but I have checked their products out on their site before. Hmmm, gives me an idea - I'll ask him about it - thanks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I know, I know, I talk too much and build too little - I promise it's a comin!  I have been trying to balance work, school, and business; plus figure out how this project fits in the bigger picture. The one thing that became painfully evident, as I settled into my new lifestyle, is that the time is just not available for the things I would have done before (fabricating almost everything from scratch), and my project fund is not substantial enough to allow me to sub every exotic part wish out to someone who can - yet. Interestingly, I have been taking an Environmental Sciences course over the past seven weeks, that has helped keep the fire burning under this project, and inspired me to be more creative in developing it.

*What I think I have decided:*
I finally came up with a design and plan for using pre-existing reproduction bodywork. That will allow me to focus primarily on the chassis and powertrain, which are the heart of the project. The body parts will all require modification, but that's much easier (and less expensive) than starting from scratch. I am now planning to use a traditional T-bucket body, with a rounded late-30s/early-40s style pickup roof grafted (fiberglassed) in. Just about everything else is close to the last rendering (fenders, hood, lights, bed, etc.). The cab is just much lower and curvier. There are subtle "adjustments" but the basic parts are the same. Later, when time and/or money permit, I would like to have everything reproduced in carbon fiber composite to live up to the original goal.

Something that you hardcore EVers will like is my decision to go back to the more aero track nose, instead of the blunt Model T style grille, to complement the rounded cab.

To make the new cab work, I have to widen the frame rails in the seating area, to drop the seats lower. For the boxy cab they sat on top of the frame rails, in this version they will be five-inches lower and nestled between them. I am going to take advantage of the opportunity to do some really artistic custom work on the frame - meaning sculptured frame rails that wind and twist around stuff on the way to their destinations.

This also coincides with another change of direction. The NHRA-legal cage will still be there, and I still intend to race the truck, but artistic design is a higher priority. I was beginning to compromise too much of what I had originally set out to accomplish with the need to meet sanctioning body rules and regulations. New perspective - if it meets tech I race there, if not I live to race another day. This will have a HUGE impact on the frame because now I can hammerform, MIG-weld, and smooth the frame until my heart is content. The welds on the cage will still be TIG'd and untouched, but the frame is free to be an art piece.

That makes me excited about getting back to work on it next month, because it will now be the perfect opportunity for me to unwind from a long week. When I am not forced to do it for a living, or bound by some overruling restrictions, fabrication work is therapeutic for me.

There's more but this edition of my DIY Inhaler thread "newsletter" is long enough already!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I know, I know, I talk too much and build too little


You've got nothing on me, check my post count


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Have you considered changing to a '30/'31 cab as a base? That is when the rounded corners started.

Alternate choice that I have considered. Take a 34 two door sedan and convert it to a pickup. Chop and sectioned to personal taste........

Either way Go for it. I look forward to the next issue.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You've got nothing on me, check my post count


Nope - I got nothing on you! My longwinded babbling can't compete with your shear numbers! 




MJ Monterey said:


> Have you considered changing to a '30/'31 cab as a base? That is when the rounded corners started.
> 
> Alternate choice that I bhave considered. Take a 34 two door sedan and convert it to a pickup. Chop and sectioned to personal taste........
> 
> Either way Go for it. I look forward to the next issue.


Thanks! Yup, actually I considered both options you suggested. Great minds... eh?! . They look like simple ideas on paper, but in the shop they're almost as much work as building from scratch. Chopping and sectioning either to fit the scale of the Inhaler, and maintaining proper proportions would mean cutting them into many small pieces and stitching them all back together. Some won't fit properly and have to be "massaged" or recreated. That's why the good shops are in demand and get paid a premium - it's serious job.

Since the T-bucket body is already the proper scale, all I have to do is create the roof. I will most likely do a CAD model, cut it in foam, and skin it with composites - like I was going to do before. The difference is this one is a relatively small part that can be added when I have time to do it. For now, I can just order a bucket and get back to work on the chassis. I can even start working while I wait for it to get here because the exact dimensions are available for T-buckets. 

Your ideas were good ones, just beyond the scope of my available time. 

The rendering is looking awesome, if I do say so myself! I'll share soon...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> They look like simple ideas on paper, but in the shop they're almost as much work as building from scratch. Chopping and sectioning either to fit the scale of the Inhaler, and maintaining proper proportions would mean cutting them into many small pieces and stitching them all back together.


I came to the same conclusion. Chop, section, slide pasenger sompartment back, combine 37 and 40 front, etc... That's why I sculpted the first version for the body that was what I wanted. Now I'll start on version 2 when finances permit. Version 1 was scrapped. I do have photos some where



toddshotrods said:


> The rendering is looking awesome, if I do say so myself! I'll share soon...


I picked up Solidworks so I can do the same. Learning 3D modeling with an engineering program is interesting to say the least..... Please share soon and inspire me some more!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...
> I picked up Solidworks so I can do the same. Learning 3D modeling with an engineering program is interesting to say the least..... Please share soon and inspire me some more!


I posted some parts renderings that were 3D models, but the renderings of the truck itself are just Photoshopped 2D artistic representations. It's a quick easy crystal ball.

For actual soild modeling, I use Rhino 3D. It's very intuitive and fun to use - not to mention much cheaper. I was planning on moving up to SolidWorks, but some associates who have used both informed me that SW is much more involved - probably too much so for what I'm doing currently. Eventually, when I finally get my act together, I will probably hire a dedicated 3D modeler to deal with SW on a daily basis. I'll be able to hand him/her my Rhino " chicken scratches" to be properly modeled. . That's not a slam on Rhino - it has serious potential - I'm just not that serious about fully exploring it and SW is sort of the small biz standard. Have fun.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If anyone has been browsing through this thread and seeing little the red "X" again, instead of pics, I apologize. In my crazy new life, I forgot about maintaining my site. I figured I'd get to it whenever I get to it, but forgot that the pics I posted elsewhere on the internet are hotlinked from it. They should all be back now.

Now, on to the good stuff! Here's the latest rendering, of my latest harebrained scheme. 








As mentioned, this is all based on currently avaialable aftermarket parts. A T-bucket main body, 40" T-bucket bed, Speedway 27 Track T hood, Speedway Track Nose, and 28-29 Model A fenders. I can simply order the parts and make some modifications. The most intense item on my to-do list (as far as bodywork is concerned) is the roof, and that will be CAD/CMM/CNC based part that leaves most of the work to the machines.

There are a couple other details in the photo that give clues to some of the key features of the design, but I'm stopping there to see if anyone notices them (or even cares  )...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Pierce arrow headlights, pod mounted tear drop taillights, molded in windshield frame, four link rear and direct drive/no trans......

Keep going. What will the front suspension be? You may need to adjust your frame/front bars if based on leaf spring with solid axle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The headlights are 1/2-3/4 scale custom versions of what I know to be Woodlites. Kind of gothic, definitely cool. They're actually one of the parts on the truck that I am considering selling - more on that later.

The taillights are 37 Ford. The actual lights are available from Speedway pretty reasonably priced. If the size isn't right, I'll consider a scaled custom version. The stems will be custom billet or cast pieces.

Yup, direct drive and the four-link rear suspension is triangulated - based on 78-88 GM G-body geometry. The front suspension is Fiero-based, short/long arm, IFS. Since you're in the area, and it's really not obvious, I'll reveal that one - the light bar is actually a billet suspension brace. Kind of like a strut tower brace for cars with MacPherson struts, it runs from the back of the upper control arm (UCA) pick-up point to the chassis structure inside the nose. Earlier in the thread there are some pics of the chassis mock-up that should help one envision where the brace runs from and to.

No solid axles here - the Inhaler's gotta do the twist (autocross)!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The smaller version of the teardrop tail lights may have a market with the Custom Motorcycle folks. I have seen many Road Kings with them frenched into the saddle bags out here. A buddy used to do this about once a month on a bike.

I may be interested in a set or partial set of your headlights. Are you going to use DOT approved lenses? It's an inspection point out here for Special Construction vehicles. I was planning on using 37 front lenses, but its not set in glass yet. Either teardrops or beehives out back.

Light bar/strut brace is a great idea. Will this also be a comm end motor mount location?

I need to go back and reread the thread now, I must of missed a chunk...

Autocross! Heck ya.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

As an FYI......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...3fff81ea6&rvr_id=&ua=WXF?&itemid=230375423390


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> As an FYI......
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230375423390&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=746bc7771230a04371a39213fff81ea6&rvr_id=&ua=WXF%3F&itemid=230375423390


Wow, nice find! I asked for measurements to see of they're small enough for the Inhaler.




MJ Monterey said:


> The smaller version of the teardrop tail lights may have a market with the Custom Motorcycle folks. I have seen many Road Kings with them frenched into the saddle bags out here. A buddy used to do this about once a month on a bike.
> 
> I may be interested in a set or partial set of your headlights. Are you going to use DOT approved lenses? It's an inspection point out here for Special Construction vehicles. I was planning on using 37 front lenses, but its not set in glass yet. Either teardrops or beehives out back.
> 
> ...


I wasn't plannning on making the lights DOT approved. Most radical custom vehicles use what they have to for registration, then put the real stuff back on. I've been stopped a few times in my daily driver and questioned on what it used to be, and whether it has certain items, while the cop seemed to be oblivious to how much stuff wasn't there that originally was! They usually just want a close up look, and don't really care about that stuff. I spend more time explaining how I did it and what I am going to do to it next than why it doesn't have something it should.

The light bar will come in very close to the comm end mounts. The motor sits back behind the front crossmember (true front-mid layout). It is likely that all this stuff will be tied together for maximum rigidity. I've been waiting until the chassis is welded up and the motor is in place before doing the design for the bar because I don't want to start whittling on expensive chunks of billet only to find out I forgot to allow clearance for some critical item or system. The steering linkage passes through that area, and I will probably leave clearance for an anti-sway bar - though I am hoping to not need one, with deliberate suspension setup and tuning.

Another system that will be located up there, that I don't believe I have mentioned yet in this thread, is a forced air cooling system for the motor. That will be snaked around the brace bar, but I may need to incorporate mounting points, etc, for the system in it.

Along with the freedom of being able to order and modify body parts, this design also gives me some much needed freedom of expression. I was suffocating in the restrictions of the more vintage themed 25 Closed Cab design. Everything was supposed to look old. I love the look of carbon fiber, but it was out of place in a serious vintage effort. I even went as far as to research to see when carbon fiber was developed but it was too far away. With this theme, I am free because the idea is to have Model T pickup that looks like it should be in one of those year-2250, post-apocalyptic, movies. The guy/gal finds it and restores it but, since there are no fossil fuels available for the ICE, he swaps in one of their flux-capacitor fusion-drive motors!  I know, I ate too much turkey! I've been smokin Trytophan.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While I wait for the next paycheck - Friday  - to start ordering parts and materials, I continue with tweaking the design. One thing that has been bothering me is this truck is supposed to be a canvas to show my design work and custom parts. With everything blacked out (anodizing, powder coating, black chrome plating) it would have been too hard to see the detail in the parts. I decided to let the aluminum be aluminum (brushed, machined, cast, and clear powder coating finishes). Mixed with carbon fiber and some black power coating and painting, it has nice contrast and really brings the details out. The main parts I will need to highlight are inside, and the bright aluminum interior will be an excellent showcase.









*NOTE:*
If you don't see a blue roll cage in the rendering above hold down shift or control (IE) and refresh the page. I didn't realize it wasn't in the pic until a few minutes ago, so I updated in the image on my site.[/quote]


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Any reason the motor is so far forward? Seems as if you could shove it further back giving you more usable room up front for batteries or components. GreenT has the motor completely in the transmission tunnel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any reason the motor is so far forward? Seems as if you could shove it further back giving you more usable room up front for batteries or components. GreenT has the motor completely in the transmission tunnel.


Hey dude! How's life treating you? How was your Turkey Day? We haven't talked in a while...

Yup, there are a couple reason the motor is that far forward.

*One,* has to do with the truck's proportions. T-buckets are pretty narrow, and relatively short. Most sit the body on top of the frame, but the Inhaler's body is channeled over the frame rails. This puts the driver and passenger's feet inside the frame rails, directly behind the motor. Even with out a transmission, the driveshaft tunnel (with a race-spec safety loop protecting the lower human extremities) makes it pretty tight in the footwells. There is definitely no room to move the motor back any further.

*Two, *has to do with weight distribution. In the interest of handling, I purposely wanted to put all the batteries towards the rear section of the truck. I am following proven sports car methodology, _e.g._ the new Corvettes, front-engined Ferraris, etc, with a front-mid engine and the rest of the heavy mass in back. Since there is no transmission, that leaves the battery packs to be located where the transmission and fuel tanks would be on these cars. This plan is based on using A123s, and they will all be located between the seats and the rear end. This keeps all the heavy concentrations of mass located between the wheels and fairly evenly distributed.


*NOTE:*
If you don't see a blue roll cage in the rendering above hold down shift or control (IE) and refresh the page. I didn't realize it wasn't in the pic until a few minutes ago, so I updated in the image on my site.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Things are all good here. Now that I'm down to working only 5 days a week I should be able to make real progress. I need to get my butt in gear and get this thing rolling before the snow starts to fly  Need to get it back inside the shop at work before it gets too cold.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You'd better hurry up New Yorker - snow should be just around the corner for you! Mine is inside my little garage space, so cold is my only issue. The two shops I will be dealing with have some form of heat, so hopefully winter won't slow me down too much.

In an ideal world, I would like to trailer this thing to Detroit for the Autorama at the end of February, as an under-construction project. The problem is finding the energy to get enough done. That's why I was so determined to figure out a way to use as much aftermarket body work as possible. Here's hoping...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to wait one more paycheck to start ordering parts, to not blow my R&R funds. Next weekend or early in the week after, I should start ordering stuff to resume work on the chassis. I made the arrangements for shop time during my Holiday work and school break. The plan is get the chassis rolling, then get the motor and driveshaft installed.

In the meantime, I want to start on the CAD model for the rear motor plate but don't feel like lugging that 200+lb motor around. I am also toying with the idea of doing a complete CNC, drive-end/motor plate, with frame mounts incorporated. Either way I would like to have the drive end digitized to start the CAD work. The million dollar question is:

*Can I just pull the drive end off the motor and replace it when I'm done. Is there anything tricky to it or is it just an end cap?*

I know the comm end is a bit trickier to remove and replace, but never heard anything about being careful pulling the drive end.

I also pulled the fenders off in the renderings - much better. More elemental, cleaner, grittier, meaner. Saves me over a grand too!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From what I've read on Jim's site the shaft may come out with the end plate.
http://hitorqueelectric.com/motor-repair-101/


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> *Can I just pull the drive end off the motor and replace it when I'm done. Is there anything tricky to it or is it just an end cap?*


Hey toddshot,

I didn't read the 18 pages to figure what motor you're talking about. But when pulling a motor apart, it is wise to know what you're doing. Typically if it has a grey iron drive end head casting, yes, the DEH will come off easily. But if it has an aluminum DEH, most likely, the DE bearing will be captive in the bore with a snap ring or similar retainer. In which case, the armature and DEH assembly will come out of the stator together. Then you need to use a puller or press with block to separate the DEH assembly from the armature/shaft. Once that is done, you can replace the bearing, as you will have ruined it during the disassembly. Then do the reverse for reassembly.

Regards,

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ugh! I'm having second thoughts now!  I have an iron DEH. The motor is an 11" GE Sepex motor from a Hyster forklift. It's all iron and feels like it is. I guess that would mean the DEH would come off separately, but I don't want to get myself into another "simple" project that eats up the little time I have available to work on the truck.

Maybe I'd better just deal with the weight, and take the whole motor to his shop. Might also be wise to just make a bolt-on (to the existing DEH) motor plate and get back to the rest of the build. 

Thanks for giving me some more cool E-motor lingo (DEH) to toss around like I know what the h3!! I'm talking about!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could pull the bolts and just pull it off a bit, and see if the shaft is coming with it or not.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You could pull the bolts and just pull it off a bit, and see if the shaft is coming with it or not.


Hey! You're usually my calm voice of reason, subtly prompting me to come down off the bridge railing! Now, you have full face paint on shouting, "Do it, do it, do it!!!". 

I might give that a shot. If I can pull it off and do that whole DEH/motor plate deal it would really get my adrenaline flowing to see this thing together and running.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like to take things apart  Sometimes I can get them back together


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I like to take things apart  Sometimes I can get them back together


Me too. I also have a tendency to lose interest after I see how they work - translation - they don't always go back together!


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi Todd,

Way cool car. 
I wonder how can you make those thing street legal in US. Here in EU we can not even change the tire size on any car


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

_GonZo_ said:


> Hi Todd,
> 
> Way cool car.
> I wonder how can you make those thing street legal in US. Here in EU we can not even change the tire size on any car


Depends where in EU.

In Croatia I have to document everything I do with photos and calculations. When the car is done the "Croatian Vehicle Center" tests it for a few days/weeks and reviews everything. You have to follow some rules like keeping the batteries out of the passenger cabin (or put them in a box if they must be inside the cabin), don't cut structural chassis parts, minimal power per ton, weight distribution etc.

In Germany you just have a quick TUV test if the conversion is road safe


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_GonZo_ said:


> Hi Todd,
> 
> Way cool car.
> I wonder how can you make those thing street legal in US. Here in EU we can not even change the tire size on any car


Thanks GonZo. It's just one of the advantages of some places in the States. I was actually planning to move to a different state but the awesome freedom to do almost anything we want prompted me to stay in Ohio a little longer. My daily driver (Honda Accord) has been modified so extensively that people ask, "what was it?". The few times I have been stopped the cops just asked about how I did the work, and wished me luck with finishing it! I think they just wanted a close-up look! It's still registered as a 91 Honda. 

The Inhaler will be resistered as a specialty car (built from scratch), though a new law going through the system could allow me to register it as a 23 Ford truck. It states that a specialty vehicle can be registered as the vehicle it looks most like; and was crafted for antiques and classics. You just have to have receipts for everything, and pass an inspection, to get a VIN. 

I did have to rethink how I was going about it a few years ago when I found out they can ask for receipts or proof of ownership for EVERYTHING! I said what if I made a gas pedal from a scrap piece of metal I found in the shop (true story)? She said, "well techinically you should have a receipt for the metal, but since it's a small part it _should_ be okay!!! I'll go with a wheelbarrow full of receipts and proof documents. They can confiscate the vehicle, on the spot, if they think something is funny!


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Depends where in EU.
> 
> In Croatia I have to document everything I do with photos and calculations. When the car is done the "Croatian Vehicle Center" tests it for a few days/weeks and reviews everything. You have to follow some rules like keeping the batteries out of the passenger cabin (or put them in a box if they must be inside the cabin), don't cut structural chassis parts, minimal power per ton, weight distribution etc.
> 
> In Germany you just have a quick TUV test if the conversion is road safe


I find that quite reasonable.
The first point in Spain is that you can not do the modification. Only a specialized garage can do it.
And for every or overall modification it is necesary an official projet signed by an engeneer, and supervised by the industria ministry. 
But that only can be done if the car maker atorithe it... bla, bla bla...
So imposible. 

I am figuring out how to solve it. I was thinking in Portugal that aparently is easy, may be Germany as you say...


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

You are very lucky with all that and makes manny little bussines can grow around.

I think Todd that I am going to move to US 
Do you have room? )


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_GonZo_ said:


> You are very lucky with all that and makes manny little bussines can grow around.
> 
> I think Todd that I am going to move to US
> Do you have room? )


Lol, I'm a little pressed for space but the country is quite roomy! Snag a big boat and come on over!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

"Special construction" titles can come in real handy. A buddy of mine wanted to build a T bucket back in the '80s. He bought all his parts and then we hit the swap meet and purchased an original rear axle, front suspension and a junk engine and transmission case.

We bolted the junk together and took it down to the California Department of motor vehicles with the receipts for the major pieces and registered it as a 1922 (year of the rusted solid engine) special construction. Then disassembled it, sold off the original stuff, and rebuilt it with all new big v8 running gear. Then we took it down for the brake and light inspection and received the tags. And since it was under 1500 pounds and older than 1971 he was not required to have fenders.

Another of my friends built a track nose T about 3 years ago and registered it as a Ford model T. The only 20s era Ford parts on the car are the headlight shells....

Yes laws can be pretty lax in some states.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Hey toddshot,
> ...Typically if it has a grey iron drive end head casting, yes, the DEH will come off easily. But if it has an aluminum DEH, most likely, the DE bearing will be captive in the bore with a snap ring or similar retainer. In which case, the armature and DEH assembly will come out of the stator together...





JRP3 said:


> You could pull the bolts and just pull it off a bit, and see if the shaft is coming with it or not.


It has the iron DEH as I mentioned earlier, but when I went out and took a look it also had a snap ring retaining the bearing. I decided to see for sure, so I pulled the bolts and gently pried on the DEH a little. The shaft would definitely come out with it. I only moved it like a 1/16th of an inch, but that was plenty to see that they're locked together.

Probably a good thing in the long run because it'll keep me from spending countless hours modeling a custom DEH/motor plate!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My latest "final" rendering. The only real significant difference is the fenders are gone. I have hope that this could really be "the one" because I haven't been trying any other styles and mods.

Waiting on some funds to transfer and I can order the materials I need to start on the chassis. My only hope now is that they can still get to me in time to use them before my two-week break is over (because of the holidays). I can still work on it on weekends after that, but I was hoping to have something that resembles a truck in the garage by then to motivate me to do it.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

I like it more with fenders, but it is just a question of taste.
May be try only with front or rear ones... Just an idea.

Anyway if you are able to make that car from scrach and standar tools with any material you plan to do it i must say you are a great...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_GonZo_ said:


> I like it more with fenders, but it is just a question of taste.
> May be try only with front or rear ones... Just an idea.
> 
> Anyway if you are able to make that car from scrach and standar tools with any material you plan to do it i must say you are a great...


Thanks. I wouldn't say "standard" tools though. I have mostly standard tools in my little apartment garage space where it is now, but will be working in two other shops to accomplish this. I have acess to four CNC mills, a CMM, two lathes, MIG & TIG welders, plasma cutters, steel worktables, etc.

After I get past this initial assemby phase, I'll be doing a lot of 3D modeling and watching the machines do the work. That's the whole point of this project for me - a showcase for my design services. Most of the delay has been for my "EV education". After almost a year, I am finally getting back to where I was. The former Chevy V8-based powertrain was mounted and nearly ready to run. To make sure the end result wasa complementary to my goals for the project, I had to rework the entire design around the electric powertrain. It's basically the Ferrari mentality - the rest of vehicle is just a package for (in this case) the motor. That'll really become evident after it starts going together. 

Just checked - still no funds yet!  I've spent more time waiting for money that is mine to get to me, than I have using the stuff I buy for this project with it. This time it's because my bank was purchased by another bank and a deposit that was made in the new system has to transfer banks to my branch (which hasn't switched yet). GRRRRRRR!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Typical of tight-spaced T-buckets, the front wheels will receive their orders via a tiny 10" wheel. This is just a stand-in until I can get around to finishing the 3D model for my aircraft aluminum/exotic wood, CNC'd, masterpiece.

Whoopty-doo, a steering wheel - right? Well, it's the first picture of something I actually bought for this project since July, I believe, so it's a BIG deal deal to me!!! 

Finally, finally, finally, getting back to work on it! I ordered a couple handfuls of materials to start on the chassis too. They're supposed to be here on Christmas Eve. I gotta get some milk and cookies to set out for Santa (the UPS driver). Maybe he'll be busy and send one of his pretty little helpers...

Obviously, some money finally found it's way into my bank account today. I'm waiting on another deposit now. When that arrives I plan to order the T-bucket body, bed, and probably the track nose. The goal is to get the chassis partially welded (it's been mocked up since summer) and rolling; then start getting the bodywork in place. In the months of down time I went over the build plan from every conceivable angle and avenue. Normally, you have a pre-existing vehicle that you have to fit everything inside. On a scratch-built vehicle you have to decide what is most important and build around those items.

I am building around the electric motor. The bodywork was designed and scaled to highlight the motor. The nose and hood are purposely sized and shaped to display the motor. I noticed that the electric motor is often lost in the engine bay of many conversions. I wanted the motor to be the star of the show, so I scaled everything down to its size. Building out from that - the next step is to fit me, a little hottie, and all the necessary components inside that scaled down outer shell. To best accomplish this, I need to get the motor in place, with the outer (body) "skin" around it, and start figuring out how to make it all work together in real life.

The upside is that we should get to see what this little sucker is going to look like soon!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Grrr!  I finally make the decision to order the body and bed, and I'm sitting here waiting for them to return my call! The body and bed are ready to go, the shipping company was ready to pick them up today (which would have put them in my garage Wednesday), and the money is in the bank. I told the guy I was going to call back to order, after I set up the shipping details. I'm trying to remain calm and patient, but I have a short fuse...

I have the fabrication supplies I ordered, but haven't started on the chassis yet. I was sorting through some other design issues first. I was also trying to resist the temptation to purchase another project! The guy sold it Saturday, freeing me to concentrate on the Inhaler - if I could just get a freaking body delivered now!!!

Just venting...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Empathetic murmurs from the west coast.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Empathetic murmurs from the west coast.....


Thanks. I'm calm now. Maybe they have strange business hours and the guy thought he had mentioned it. Maybe someone got stuck in a fiberglass mold and they all had to rush to the ER, after prying him out.

I'll try one more time tomorrow. If the shipping company can't get it here before the holiday weekend, I'll have to figure something out because I go back to work next week and wouldn't be home to receive it. I'm not on those terms with any of my neighbors to leave them my garage key.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This two week break caused me to realize something. After almost four months of 100+ hour weeks, I just didn't have enough left to spend the whole two weeks in the shop cutting, grinding, and welding. I purposely used the first week to relax and recharge. I will likely use most of this week the same way. I concentrated on my design work (which is relaxing to me), and collecting parts and materials. The plan is to have the stuff here so that I can spend the occasional evening and weekend in the shop and garage.








With that in mind, I challenged myself to come up with a plan that invloved the least amount of composite work possible, so that my work will be centered around metal fabrication. This is basically the same truck without a roof and hood, a slightly shorter bed, and different (more vintage) color. The roof and hood were completely scratch-built, and the bed that's available is 30" (vs. 40" in the previous design). I can always add the roof and hood, if I'm not satisfied, but would have this at the very least.

In about a week's worth of partial working days, from where it is now, I can have the truck pretty much setup. One day to fab up some of the parts for the chassis, one to weld it up, one to mount the body and bed, one to wedge-section the body. I can do the clay surfacing work for the track nose in the evenings, here at home (to scale it down a bit). A few days to pull a mold from it, lay up the new section, and glass it in, mount it - and it'll look like the picture. I can spread those days out over a month or so, to keep from getting fatigued. Slow and steady.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_*Warning* - I may "ping" this tread repeatedly today, and babble endlessly to calm my nerves!_

The problem was strange (to me) business hours. They work from 5am-2pm, but the guy didn't mention that yesterday when I said I would call back. My second call was at 2:12pm. I guess they hit the doors at exactly 2pm, or ignore the phones on the way out.

Today I called at 9:15am and confirmed that they can have the parts ready to go today (yup), then called the shipping company to confirm they could have it here by Thursday (yup). I just finished paying for them, and scheduling the pick up!!!!  Now, I have to wait for one of them to call me back and let me know the parts are on the truck, and arrange for payment for the shipping. So far, it all went pretty smoothly.

Thursday, I should have the T-bucket body and bed in my little garage space!!! If everything proceed as planned today and tomorrow I might do a little welding on the chassis Wednesday, so I can spend rest of my break mocking the body up on the rolling chassis.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow that is some strange hours. We see those local hours when we are supporting east coast customers or are trying to order off the east coast.

That's close to European hours.

Dang we close the bars here when those folks start work.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Wow that is some strange hours. We see those local hours when we are supporting east coast customers or are trying to order off the east coast.
> 
> That's close to European hours.
> 
> Dang we close the bars here when those folks start work.....


I know - real strange. The latest twist is the shipping company assumed the place closed at five (even though I specially stated 2pm) and didn't send the truck there yet. I had a feeling. The guy said someone will be there until 3:30pm today, and the truck is supposed to be on the way there now. I'll be so glad when this "episode" is over and the body and bed are in my garage. 

*Edit:* I called checking/fussing and was reminded that it wasn't 2pm there yet! (When I called)  I'm eastern time - they're central. That means that there is still plenty of time for them to get there. It was 2:45, my time, when I called and I was assuming they only had 45 mins to get lost/forget/have a flat tire...

Like I said, I'll be babbling endlessly here today to help keep my cool until I know the parts are en route. I went with this company because they were the ones who shipped my motor. Everything went perfect, and on schedule, with that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had to keep calling, and finally talked to the terminal manager yesterday. They were supposed to call me back to let me know the truck had picked my parts up, but didn't. The manager gave me a few different versions of what had transpired over the course of the day, and I made certain to point out each change. By the end of our conversaion he assured me my stuff was on the truck, and personally guaranteed me that it would be here on Thursday. He still couldn't seem to comprehend why after all those broken promises, I was reluctant to believe yet another one. 

Anyway, I called the place I purchased them from to confirm that they had actually picked the stuff up. He said the truck showed up at four o'clock - two hours late - but the parts were indeed on it.

*Revised Agenda*
I realized that rushing to the shop today to weld the chassis up isn't logical. Since the body and bed should be here tomorrow, it makes more sense to wait and mock it up first to see if I like the setup (wheelbase, track widths, component layout, etc.). If everything looks good I will likely shoot for Saturday to do some welding and fabrication.

*UPDATE (noon-ish)*
I called and got a tracking number this morning, and it said the expected delivery date is 01/04, so I called corporate headquarters and peacefully clued them in to my saga. The parts are currently in Chicago. The (very nice) lady said she would put some tags on my parts to move them out of Chicago, to Ohio, on the first available trailer; and that once they get to that terminal (about an hour from me) they would be marked to be pushed out first thing tomorrow morning. I am encouraged and hopeful.

*UPDATE (12:45pm EST)*


> Departed CHICAGO, IL in route to destination terminal


She delivered on her promise to get it out of Chicago ASAP.

UPDATE (9:00pm EST)


> 7:57:19 PM - Arrived at destination terminal


That would be the terminal that's about an hour from me! Pictures should be forthcoming tomorrow!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, the lady at headquarters was true to her word! She said she would put a tag on it that would get it on the first trailer out of Chicago, and then she would make sure it was pushed out for delivery when it got to the terminal here.



> *1:56:57 AM* Out for delivery in CANAL WINCHESTER, OH


I feel like a kid on Christmas morning!  I hope to post pics in a matter of hours.


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ............I feel like a kid on Christmas morning!  I hope to post pics in a matter of hours.


 
We wait with bated breath

keith


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, the truck arrived a little after 10am. He got stuck in the back of the apartment complex for about fifteen minutes behind an Ashley Furniture truck - the guys were evidently inside an apartment with the truck parked in the road. The parts were in my little garage space by 10:30! The second best part of the story - the company ate the shipping charges (over $300) for the hassle!!! You guys didn't know Santa kept running a full week after Christmas did you? He just trades in the reindeer, sleigh, and silly suit for a more appropriate setup!








One crappy cell pic for now. I'm on my way to get a micro SD card to get the rest off my phone. I guess the file size is too big to send, so I need a card to download them to the computer via the USB cable.

The body is a perfect fit on the chassis. By that I mean it follows the frame rails perfectly. It's sitting all the way up on top of the rails now, but will soon be channeled down over them. The front will be narrowed, creating the wedge shape from overhead. The sides will be pie-sectioned (bigger end taken out towards the front) to create the wedge shape from the side. I will narrow the bed a bit to allow the main body's lines to flow a bit more interrupted, and angle it to follow the extreme wedge shape of the body. All that is what I did in the rendering to create the right proportions. Again, it's all to highlight the motor. That firewall will shrink down to a proper backdrop for the star of the show.

I sat in it, and it is perfect. When the cowl height comes down, it's going to be exactly what I imagined. I plan to order a couple of Speedway's aluminum bomber seats, which will be awesome in there! I saw them in their T-bucket at the Googuys show here and fell in love with them. They'll be even better, and more eye-catching, in my version...

Can you tell I'm having fun?

EDIT: I replaced the pic with the best one of the lot. The micro SD card did allow me to drag and drop them onto the computer but that didn't solve the problem of them being crappy cell phone pics. One of the next purchases may be a digital camera.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just purchased the Woodlite headlight shells off Ebay.


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## _GonZo_ (Mar 23, 2009)

Heeee that starts to look like ehrrrrrrrrrrr something with wheels 

Nice christamas present have fun.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lol, thanks. Now, if energy and time will line up so I can start putting some of these parts together.

Ebay transactions makes me nervous, but I had to have those lights! I asked the seller for measurements a few times, but didn't get a response. He has a 98.6% positive rating, with 2918 transactions, so it shouldn't be a matter of not receiving the lights or getting something other than what was advertised in the auction. I finally noticed some manuals in one of the pictures of the lights, found some pics of the lights on antique cars, and took an educated guess at the size. Then I enlarged them on the rendering to see if they'd fit. I actually like it better than my smaller versions, so I decided to roll the dice.

My hope is that having all these parts here and ready will push me through this phase. A couple good months of raw arenaline-fueled activity, and at least I'll have a hot rod when I finally crash. I can then drag myself out to the garage, sit in a chair, and smile. 

Oh my Inhaler, what big eyes you have!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why is there an air cleaner on the electric motor?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Why is there an air cleaner on the electric motor?


Haha! I was wondering when someone was going to call me on that! It _is_ an air box, and _was_ put there purposely to look like an ICE air cleaner. It's the forced air setup for the motor. I didn't take the time to draw and render the real ducting, but it will flow directly into the cooling ports (4) at the front (comm end) of the motor. The box will hold ice or dry ice to cool the air, that cools the motor, when I decide to explore its limits.

From a design perspective, something has to reach for the sky between the cowl and grill on a proper open-hood street rod. I just insist that it serve some purpose, and I needed a place to put the actual air box. I decided on inboard coil-overs for the front suspension design. That booted the air box from inside the track nose. I real life, it will be obvious that it's not a conventional air cleaner.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember part of the job of the air flow is to blow out the brush dust. I think the airflow should be in at the DE and out of the CE.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Remember part of the job of the air flow is to blow out the brush dust. I think the airflow should be in at the DE and out of the CE.


That wouldn't be a problem. I just assumed that the large ports on the comm end were where the air is sucked in. The drive end has smaller partically finned openings. I get what you're saying though. It would make sense to not push the brush dust through the entire motor, if it could just be pushed out nearby openings. Thanks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally satisfied that I have a viable plan, I tack welded the crossmember and took the frame to the shop tonight. The plan is to do some cutting, grinding, and welding, tomorrow afternoon. I'm hoping to get the front suspension completely welded in, and four temporary struts made, so that it will be able to roll on its own wheels.

Depending on how long that takes, and how my work and school schedule plays out, I hope to also have the steering working before the weekend is over. Next weekend, or the following weekend, the bodywork goes on and I finally have something that looks like an actual vehicle that I can at least push around like a normal one.

If the planets really line up for me, the motor will also be installed this month! I have everything I need for the front mounts, but the rear motor plate will require a near miracle to do this month. I have to get the CAD model ready, purchase a chunk of aluminum, and find a time slot where the shop can cut it. That's the other shop and he's pretty busy right now.

The seller still hasn't contacted me to say if he has, or when he plans to ship my lights. 

Hopefully, I'll have some pics tomorrow...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Have you considered running a one piece hood like this?
http://www.rootlieb.com/html_files/mt_hds/pages/10_mt_hd_jpg.htm

If you add a flat bottom piece (above the motor) you may be able to duct air from the nose to the back of the motor and mount electronics in this weather resistant area. 

You could then "open the hood" and show off (and service) the components in there.

For functionality and style you could run a small scoop or a couple of ram-air velocity stacks like you see on the multiple single barrel flat-head cars (Baloney cut tubing) to grab cooling air for motor cooling.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Have you considered running a one piece hood like this?


Yeah, actually this is the first version that doesn't have a hood. Over my Christmas break I had to get real with myself about what the actual goals for this vehicle are, and what my current agenda will really allow me to do.

The roof and hood came off, in this version, because they aren't necessary. The roof was there to allow a full NHRA cage. As much as I would love to go blistering, uninhibited by the tech squad, down NHRA sanctioned drag strips, it just isn't necessary. I will fab a bolt-in cage later, and where I am allowed to race I will. Where I am not, I live to race another day. The biggest advantage, of course, is that I don't have to fabricate that roof from scratch just to have something that resembles my design. I was able to just buy a body...

The hood came off to pay homage to that classic street rod style, and to keep the good stuff in plain sight at all times. My best design work will be in your face as soon as you come near the truck.

The original hot rods were created by stripping the cars down to the bare minimum. That's what created the style that has prevailed to this day. That's what I went back to. It's almost like I designed a complete phantom factory vehicle, then stripped it back down into a proper hot rod.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It felt good to pick up some tools and get back to turning raw materials into working parts. I permanently stitched the crossmember into the frame rails, and shaved off the factory Fiero mounts. Then I started on the lower control arm (LCA) rear mounts. The first step was to make some temporary bronze shims to center the 12mm factory bolts in the larger .625" holes. I forgot to snap an "after" pic, but I tapped them in, cut of the excess, and ground them flush with the surface of the mount.









The next step was to weld the LCA mounts to the frame. They are stitched on the inside and outside, and will also be fully boxed on the outsides later, with hand-formed sheet metal. The end goal for the frame is for it to be sculptured, and flow organically from point to point. 









After I cleaned the crossmember up a little, I bolted the steering rack in place to get an idea how the steering will run. The steering wheel and shaft are just hanging on the rack's input shaft right now. 







I'm 

I'm behind on some of my other responsibilities, but I'm going to try to go back in tomorrow afternoon. I want to get the steering setup and welded, do some more clean-up work on the front suspension, and maybe get started on some of the fabrication work. I also need to figure out what I need to do the rear crossmember. Depending on the time and cost estimates, I may be able to order the supplies for that and do it next weekend.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've recommended it to others on this board, who are working on/considering scratch-built vehicles, and I'll reiterate the point now. *Use a complete front suspension setup from an existing vehicle that meets your needs.*

Suspension design, especially independent front systems, is so involved (to do safely and properly) that you'll spend too much of your resources of time, motivation, and money, on one area. I was going to do an original design but realized that I could invest as much time in that one area as I would have in the whole chassis with the use of pre-existing components. I got side-tracked by life, but now that I'm back to my project this decision has paid off tenfold! If I were to use the factory springs, all I would need are upper shock mounts and it would ready to go down the road now!

With a little research and careful measuring, I also eliminated some issues Fieros have with their front suspension - pro-dive geometry. I have it setup for a few degrees of anti-dive now. Similarly, in back, I am using GM G-body (78-88 Monte, Cutlass, Regal, Grand Prix). I did research there as well, and made some corrections in the geometry just with how I welded it into my chassis. These mods will allow the tires to bite upon vigorous acceleration, and not be prone to wheel hop like the factory geometry is. If I were not using coil-overs, all I would need are upper spring and shock mounts and it too would be ready to go.

The best part is these setups are well-known and there are parts and known modifications already figured out. Just a tip for the scratch-builders.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Have steering, will turn. I had a board across the frame rails to sit on, and went for a nice drive around the table!  It was so rewarding actually feeling my steering wheel slide the rack from side to side.









This is all just a temporary setup that will be discarded later. The support has a two-piece clamp on top, with a bronze split bearing inside. I guess I should replace the masking tape with bolts or something. Maybe I can use Gorilla glue!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodlites!








They're pretty rough castings - definitely not high quality stuff. Can't ask for much though for $200, when real Woodlites sell for thousands. I assumed the guy was casting them himself, but they have "Mexico" cast on the inside. I can work with them though. The basic design is just plain awesome!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

When you get a chance, it would be cool to see a pic of them positioned on the car with tires and nose for proportions.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> When you get a chance, it would be cool to see a pic of them positioned on the car with tires and nose for proportions.


Yup, might take a little while though. The frame is at a shop, the rest of the parts are in my garage, and I still have to purchase the track nose. The nose and a chunk of aluminum for the rear motor plate are my next scheduled purchases. These were a couple steps out of order but I try to mix in occasional parts that keep my adrenaline flowing, along with what's needed.

They're pretty good size, so they'll definitely stand out on such a small street rod.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Check out post 35 in this thread. Well the rest too, but.....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415809&page=2


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet! Thanks for the link.

The sparks fly again tomorrow and Sunday! I want to get the old hunk of factory steel at the back of the frame replaced with neat tubular crossmembers this weekend, and the frame will be ready to come home to start on the body parts. After I get it here, I have to go back and make the front struts. I need new measurements from the assembled chassis because I removed the brackets I was plannning to attach them to. When I get them bolted in place, the chassis will be able to roll out of the garage for the first time!

I hope to fit and tack the crossmember for rear motor plate in as well. That way I can start working on the CAD model. I plan to purchase the track nose and a 3-inch thick chunk of aluminum next (for the motor plate).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to post this one from last weekend. I used the plasma cutter to remove the spring towers and the spring/shock bracket from the lower control arm. The jagged cut is because it was pretty intense in there with sparks bouncing off the inner wall of the crossmember. I have to get in there with a grinder and clean it up later.










Also from last weekend: I was measuring for the light bar. You can see a Woodlite housing on the table - might help give an idea of the scale.









Today I finally got rid of that hunk of steel from the Cutlass the rear suspension came from. I left the factory crossmember in place all this time to keep the upper control arm mounts locked in place. My chassis is beginning to resemble what has been in my head.









A 3-inch diameter x .125" wall crossmember, and a 1.750" tubular brace, replace the rusty factory sheet metal. The rust was actually just surface rust - the metal is in very good condition. The bend in the brace is just for aesthetics.








The little ears sticking up are just for the temporary struts. When I finally get around to doing the actual coil-over mounts they will be trimmed down. This whole area will eventually be molded and shaped, so that it flows from section to section.

I also scaled all the cell pics down to 640x480 so they won't be so grainy...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First time my chassis rolled outside the garage!!! Woo-hoo!!! 








I've been working on this project since 2005, and this is actually the first time it rolled outside any of the three shops and garages it has been in! When I first built the chassis in 2005, it had the ability to roll but I never moved it because it was leveled and secured for working on it. I took it to a friend's shop before I moved, but it was towed there, minus any front suspension, and never had front wheels to roll on there. It came to Columbus in the back of a pickup, in pieces, and is finally - finally - a *rolling* chassis!!! Those of you that have been with me since I started this thread, or actually read the whole thing, will realize that it sat blocked up, mocked up, and ready to become "whole" through most of 2009 - because life just got in the way.

I stood and pushed it, while steering, to get it outside for this pic. After I got it back inside I sat down on the frame rail and "rode around" in the garage Flintstone-powered. It is really light in weight, and very easy to move. That's even with the rear drum brakes hanging up a little because the backing plates are completely rusted out. I think the shoes are just laying on bottom of the drums. The steering is effortless and should still be like power steering with the motor in place, since it's completely behind the front axle center line. The turning radius is pretty nice too. The wheels are completely free to crank all the way to either side.

So far, so good. My countless hours of design are playing out exactly as planned.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to mention that I also found a 1350 Series Spicer flange yoke on Ebay for the driveshaft. My goal is to order the billet aluminum for the rear motor mount this week, and get started on mounting the motor. I need the flange to check the clearances for the driveshaft while developing the CAD model for the mount.

I hope to get the main body and bed sectioned, re-glassed, and hung on the chassis this coming weekend. I can't wait to see it actually start to look like a Model T pickup!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Congrats on this milestone!

When you get the chance...... As built pictures of the rear suspension?

I am weak on newer G.M. suspension knowledge.

MJ


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks. Do you want to see pictures of a factory G-body rear suspension, or pictures of the Inhaler's rear setup? I don't have the coil-over mounts in yet, but I can take pics of what I have, if that's what you're looking for.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

And I thought my project was slow going!

Well done on getting it rolling.

I have often worried about spending so much time doing ordinary mechanical stuff that the EV part seems to be forgotten, or less relevent, but with yours I think all this work is going to be well worth it.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

A photot of The Inhaler set up would be fine.

I was playing with Jags and TRs during the 80s and early 90s, didn't even look at what the American companies were doing with car suspension. I'm going to go look up g-body now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> And I thought my project was slow going!
> 
> Well done on getting it rolling.
> 
> I have often worried about spending so much time doing ordinary mechanical stuff that the EV part seems to be forgotten, or less relevent, but with yours I think all this work is going to be well worth it.


I just hope that old story about the tortoise winning the race was true.  Thanks Woody, it should definitely be worth the effort. A couple of the main goals were to build from scratch, so that my clients would have confidence in knowing that I have actually been there/done that; and to establish a foundation to build on that has few few design limitations.

The funny thing is this project isn't really aimed specifically at the custom vehicle industry, or the emerging EV industry. It's really a universal marketing tool to showcase my product design services. I decided to build an actual vehicle, instead of a futuristic coffee table, because automobiles are incredibly sophisticated and because I have a long history/love affair with them. I decided to go EV because it's the cleanest, most advanced, form of custom vehicle I can build and because they're just so freakin cool! 

Now that the foundation is set, and living up to its promise, things _should_ start come together faster. In a matter of weeks it will go from a rolling chassis to an actual Model T. The body and bed are just sitting there waiting to be sliced up and dropped on the chassis. I plan to order the track nose and aluminum for the rear motor mount this week and/or next week. Sometime in February or March, depending on my and the machinist's schedules, the motor should be installed. That would leave a driveshaft, contactor, switch, fuse, diode, wiring, and a couple batteries, for that first parking lot ride...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice progress!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nice progress!


Thanks, it's been a long ride huh? Thanks for sticking in there, and helping me through the whole thing. If it hadn't been for your persistence on PFF this thing would still have that big old ICE clogging up my design. One of the reasons it was taking so long, in the pre-EV phase, was I couldn't get the cowl height down where I wanted it and enough radiator in the nose to guarantee a cool ride.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks, it's been a long ride huh? Thanks for sticking in there, and helping me through the whole thing.


I'm happy to have been a small part of the build team. It's the sort of project I'd love to do but don't really have the ability to pull off, so I live vicariously through your fabricating skills


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The funny thing is this project isn't really aimed specifically at the custom vehicle industry, or the emerging EV industry. It's really a universal marketing tool to showcase my product design services. I decided to build an actual vehicle, instead of a futuristic coffee table, because automobiles are incredibly sophisticated and because I have a long history/love affair with them. I decided to go EV because it's the cleanest, most advanced, form of custom vehicle I can build and because they're just so freakin cool!


I know what you mean.
I am intending my EV to be a feature for my company hence it will be completely rebadged with my own logo. Although I work in wood I can also work in many other fields and do, so the car was intended to show an alternative to the usual environmental awareness thing of 'I only use local timber' because I don't. I will use and do what is right but be aware of the implications of doing so, and recycling is one aspect of that. My car and trailer are all made from recycled bits where safe and possible.

I'd still like a woody car, though I think yours is more of an eye catcher as it is meant to be.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> A photot of The Inhaler set up would be fine.
> 
> I was playing with Jags and TRs during the 80s and early 90s, didn't even look at what the American companies were doing with car suspension. I'm going to go look up g-body now.











This is another shot from Sunday's pictures. I might not be able to get a close-up until the weekend because, even with the flash my Blackberry doesn't take very good pics in my garage, without a little help from the sun. I don't get home from work until after sunset.

You can see the rear control arms in this one. G-bodies use a solid rear end with a triangulated four-link design. I wanted a solid rear end (with good handling) because it just looks right under the bed of a street rod pickup. The upper arms angle in, getting much narrower, as they go from the frame to the rear end. The lower arms angle out, getting slightly wider, as they go from the frame to the rear end. The triangulation of the arms locates the rear end without the need for a panhard bar. I like it because it's a clean, neat, setup and the converging and diverging angles of the arms make the setup more interesting to the eye, IMO.

These are Chris Alston's Chassisworks upper and lower control arms. These are their Pro Power arms designed for maximum torque loads in all-out drag race vehicles. They'll run about $1000 for the four, but will give me the security of knowing the rear end will stay under the truck when my right foot gets heavy. The spherical bearings allow the rear end to pivot and move through its travel range freely. The Pro Power's bearings are rated for 55,000lb static load! With rubber bushings the triangulated links fight each other, and with poly it will actually bind as they have virtually no "give". This type of setup has proven to be quite capable in road-race style handling with the right control arms and geometry.









I corrected the biggest issue when I located the setup in my chassis, which is the factory rear end side upper control arm (UCA) mounts are lower than the frame side UCA mounts. This leads to severe wheel hop when applying power. The traction kits that are commonly sold for these type GM rear suspensions have two metal brackets that move the rear end side mounts up a little. You may be able to notice in my setup that the arms travel upward, as well out outward, towards the rear end. The adjustment on the aftermarket UCAs allow you to dial in the right amount of pinion angle.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

O.K. Now I'm up to speed on the rear suspension.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I purchased a 14.25 x 12.5 x 3" chunk of 6061 aluminum plate on Ebay last night for the rear motor plate! One step closer to finally machining one of my crazy parts. I haven't started the CAD model for it yet, but I _hope_ to have it done and start cutting this month.

I also have a tracking number for the flange yoke, and it appears that it will be here (from Canada) in time for me to physically double-check the size and clearances before cutting the motor plate.

Piece by piece...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just an update - practicing my blogging skills, hehe. 


The 3" thick chunk for the rear motor mount is en route, it departed Tukwila, WA last night (wherever that is), and is scheduled to be here on the 11th.

I started working on the CAD model (pics will be coming soon) and decided that I should do a complementary front mount. The rear mount will be a completely CNC-machined part, whereas the front mount will be a combination of CNC machining, hand fabrication, and TIG welding. The point is to show design possibilities, and different methods of implementing them. My design challenge, in this case, is to make this motor look like it was pulled out of a spaceship and retrofitted into a Model T - back in the early twentieth century! Totally modern, but still uniquely antique.

I purchased a 12.25 x 12.25 x 1" thick chunk of 6061 for the front mount yesterday.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Just an update - practicing my blogging skills, hehe.
> 
> 
> The 3" thick chunk for the rear motor mount is en route, it departed Tukwila, WA last night (wherever that is), and is scheduled to be here on the 11th.
> ...


I tend to get excited when the chips start flying,,, and it appears that you are going to be making a lot of them. This has been an interesting story,,, keep up the good work.
Tukwila is just off I-5, between Seattle and Tacoma


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

grayballs said:


> I tend to get excited when the chips start flying,,, and it appears that you are going to be making a lot of them. This has been an interesting story,,, keep up the good work.
> Tukwila is just off I-5, between Seattle and Tacoma


Me too! (get excited when the chips start flying...) Thanks.

Cue music: "I went from Phoenix Arizona, all the way to Tacoma..."


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had planned to start on the body and bed this weekend, but decided to focus on the CAD models instead. One, it's cold and I'd rather be inside behind my laptop. Two, I need to step away from shop work for a second to recharge my batteries. Three, I need to have the CAD models finished and ready ASAP, so he can start cutting as soon as a machine is free. Four, I'm seeing some opportunities that I hadn't considered, for the body, while modeling.

The first step was just to get the basic components set up:








As you can see, I switched to triple stacks instead of the teardrop style airbox. There will have to be a small plenum connecting them, and routing the air to the runners. I'm also testing colors and textures, as I model because it determines what each part is made from. The motor itself will be steel gray (possibly just finished and clear-coated cast iron). The mounts and stacks will be a natural finish aluminum. The frame rails are actually black like the crossmember. I have them set to 65% transparency to highlight the important (to this design) components.










The reason for the 3" thick aluminum to cut the rear mount should be obvious now. It's a sculptured piece, that flares out to receive the driveshaft. That is basically eye candy. The real point of the thickness are the mounting "wings" that will extend out a bit on each side, and fit the curvature of the crossmember.










The development that arose concerning the body is the dished firewall, which shrouds the motor and mount a bit. I was originally going to have the motor slightly recessed into a flat, smoooth, firewall but that would mean all the work to design and produce the mount would be hidden from view. I considered a removable tunnel inside but that still means people would have to look under the dash to see it. By dishing the firewall I get more depth and dimension in the body work, and allow people to see the mount. We were already kicking around the idea of cutting the adapter for the driveshaft flange yoke-to-splined hub adapter from titanium, just for kicks, even though it wasn't going to be seen. Now it may be visible, so the titanium would be seen. It would have a functional purpose, as well, by helping to reduce reciprocating weight.










The front motor mount will be based on a matching ring cut from the 1" thick plate. It will have two hand fabricated wings that extend forward to the front suspension crossmember. These are already rough cut, and were the original front mounts that extended from the front of the Chevy V8 to main rails. I had a plan to use them in a similar fashion on this motor, but wanted the ring up front to match the rear mount. The wings will press into slots machined into the ring (not modeled yet) and be TIG welded to it. Going forward, instead of to the sides, with the wings adds depth and dimension; plus, it helps tie the two crossmembers together.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here's what "Brown" did for me today!








I am always a little nervous about Ebay transactions but these two were exactly what was promised (actually a smidge larger than the advertised sizes in all dimensions) and the shipping was fast and painless.

The machinist will be out of town until the 24th on business, so there will be a little delay getting them chucked up and whittled down. I'll just bounce back to mounting the body and bed while I wait for him to get back.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A quick placeholder: I always go back to the renderings and drawings to make sure the ideas I am contemplating will work in the grand scheme. I wanted to see the shrouded firewall, with slightly visible driveshaft, and triple velocity stacks. I also increased the size of the Woodlites, in the rendering, to match what they look like in real life.








Still working on the CAD models for the mounts, and waiting for the "right" day to starting fitting the body and bed.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The machinist will be out of town until the 24th on business, so there will be a little delay getting them chucked up and whittled down. I'll just bounce back to mounting the body and bed while I wait for him to get back.


First,, it was an understatement, when I said "a lot of chips". Your recycle bin will be full, after those cuts.
Second,,, I imagine that the wait for the machinist is painful,, nothing worse than having parts and pieces and direction, without means.
While I don't have to wait for the machinist, I do have to balance work and a wife of 38 years and the fact that I'm not twenty anymore. I'm finding that after a 10 hr. work day,, a 1 hour drive each way, grandkids, etc. that time in the shop is harder to come by,,,, when I do get out there, I wind up involving myself 'till 2 am or 3 am and then my wife has issues (?) imagine that.
Grand project and great work! Great pictures,,, keep it up


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Gray! I'm okay with the wait because I still have some things I want to do on the models before we start throwing chips around. I"ll be turning enough 6061 into scrap already, so goofing on the 3" plate is not acceptable! We'll probably cut a test piece or two out of composite or plastic, just to be sure. I'll need to pack a meal or two because I doubt I'll be able to walk away from the machine when that 3" piece is finally locked down!

I hear you on the time thing. My work day is an hour shorter, and my round-trip work commute is a bit over half of yours, but there's still not enough time... I'm single as can be, but I have a feeling the machinist's girlfriend may not be too found of me when we start cutting some of this stuff. This is just the tip of the iceberg, I have some really neat parts to model and cut after I finally get the thing setup. There will also be some really neat clay modeled/cast parts.

Another critical piece of the puzzle arrived. This is the Spicer flange yoke that will allow me to connect the driveshaft directly to the motor.








My countless hours of research are really paying off, as I start buying and building, because things are working exactly as planned. The adapter we'll cut to mate this to the PTO hub will be neat and clean. The holes of the two pieces miss each other, meaning I don't need a thick adapter, or complicated two-piece deal. This accepts a heavy duty Spicer 1350 series U-joint, so it should keep me running for a while. Eventually, if I manage to break this setup (most likely the PTO hub), I will look into having a complete titanium flange yoke cut that has the 25T female spline pattern incorporated. The titanium for that (at surplus pricing) is around $500, so I need a setup that can take a little abuse until I really need it. I could probably shave a grand off the cost of that ultimate yoke by using moly, instead of titanium, but this is racing and every pound of reciprocating and/or unsprung weight saved is worth its weight in gold.'

More to come...


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Another critical piece of the puzzle arrived. This is the Spicer flange yoke that will allow me to connect the driveshaft directly to the motor.


How much should I paypal you to just make up an extra PTO-flange yoke coupler? I need exactly the same piece, but mine will be for a 52 Ford F-1 PU. PM me with a number (generous profit margin is fine by me) and funds will be on their way! 

(long shot.....but every piece you don't have to figure out from scratch is worth its weight in gold as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather not learn machining skills on critical pieces if I can help it)

Looking awesome. This is way more fun with pictures


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> How much should I paypal you to just make up an extra PTO-flange yoke coupler? I need exactly the same piece, but mine will be for a 52 Ford F-1 PU. PM me with a number (generous profit margin is fine by me) and funds will be on their way!
> 
> (long shot.....but every piece you don't have to figure out from scratch is worth its weight in gold as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather not learn machining skills on critical pieces if I can help it)
> 
> Looking awesome. This is way more fun with pictures


Thanks. I'll post here, for everyone to see and send a PM to make sure you get it. I have no problem with asking the CNC to spit out another one. I won't be able to give you an estimate until after the machinist gets back. Once the CAD model is finished, it is absolutely no problem to whittle out another one or fifty...

Should be a really accurate part because we'll be creating the points for the model with his CMM off of the flange yoke and PTO hub. The rest is just a bunch of pretty curves to fill in the blanks.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks. I'll post here, for everyone to see and send a PM to make sure you get it. I have no problem with asking the CNC to spit out another one. I won't be able to give you an estimate until after the machinist gets back. Once the CAD model is finished, it is absolutely no problem to whittle out another one or fifty...
> 
> Should be a really accurate part because we'll be creating the points for the model with his CMM off of the flange yoke and PTO hub. The rest is just a bunch of pretty curves to fill in the blanks.


I've found that most of the work is in the cad,,, before the mill gets started,,,, I have run across a few issues with how to hold onto stuff and keep the clamps out of the way. 'Just makes the project more interesting. I've also found that even though I don't have to stay and babysit the mill, I can't seem to pull myself away. I still find it absolutely amazing, what that thing is capable of (I'm the weak link, for sure).

When I've got something complicated, that I'm unsure about, I try to run it in MDF. It's inexpensive and a filtered fan handles the dust


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I try take clamping and fixturing into consideration when I'm modeling and designing so that the parts are not a nightmare to work on. I started out tracking my hours on the rear mount but, as always on my stuff, I get so wrapped up in what I'm doing I forget to keep count. I use my parts as an opportunity to test new modeling ideas and push the limits, so it's hard to develop an accurate labor time from them because I end up backtracking a lot. I do develop a good sense of how long it will take me to perform certain modeling tasks though.

It's amazing that watching the machines never gets old!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Loving the big slabs of Ebay aluminium.
It would be interesting to see some video of the machining.

I am preparing to machine some myself. No cadcam for me, just a scrap of MDF with the number written on and my own hands on the slightly undersized lathe.

Your project and my tractor project seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of final performance and methods of build.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Loving the big slabs of Ebay aluminium....


Me too! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...It would be interesting to see some video of the machining...


That, is a great idea! Hopefully, I'll remember it when the mill starts singing and dancing! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Your project and my tractor project seem to be opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of final performance and methods of build.


On one hand, but on the other we're both exploring possibilities. I actually love taking ordinary hand tools and seeing what can be produced with them. I smiled 'til my cheeks hurt when I saw your hand-cut splined shaft!  I have been telling people for years, on automotive forums, that you can do amazing things with a drill, a couple grinders, and a little patience. I turned the knob on the lathe, but the gate plate for this shifter was completely hand-fabricated.








Tools used were a table saw with a metal cutting blade, oxy/acetylene torch, right angle grinder, die grinder, recip saw, drill press, and d/a sander. I started with a 2.5 x 12 x .75" piece of 6061. I cut a slice off, lengthwise, to create the thinner rear section that curves up and over the shifter housing. That left a .75" thick chunk on the end to create the depression in for the reverse lock-out button. The plate was then carefully heated and hammerformed over a couple wood and steel bucks, until it fit over the fiberglass "boot" that covers the shifter housing. A slot was measured out (fifty times), ends drilled with a .5" bit at the right angles, and then the center of the slot was removed with cut-off discs on the right-engle grinder (got be extra careful not to go too far). A small slot was extended forward for the reverse lock-out, and then a carbide cutter in the die grinder was used to make the depression. The bottom of the plate (under the depression) was rounded and smoothed with the right-angle grinder, and finally the sides were trimmed and shaped with cut-off and sanding discs.

As it sits in the pic it's unfinished. The crappy cell pic also doesn't show how nice the piece really is. I took that pic with an old Razr and it makes the edges of the piece look goofy - they're really neat and cleanly cut. The "boot" is supposed to red covered with red leather, stitched like a boot would be. The paint was just to get a sneak peek.


*Inspirational moment over - back to the Inhaler!* 
The machinist I am working with likes to use some other stuff, as opposed to MDF, because it cuts cleaner and leaves less clean-up work later. It costs a little more, but saves him in the long run because his machines need to be ready to go ASAP. I can't remember the name of it right now. It's a wood-like composite, but pressed very tight.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a nice bit of work on that gate plate. The ability to do work like that by hand is becoming rare, it seems too easy to CNC it nowadays.

I do like hand working and often feel like I am out of touch with modern methods.
I tend to hand work almost all of my wood work except where speed is more important then quality, stage sets and props for example. Not wnating to spend money on a lot of machines and space to house them also adds a bias to my methods.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks. CAD/CNC is nice but it doesn't address every need. For some one-offs the cost of developing the model, and then machine time, can far exceed the cost of just grabbing some materials and tools and making the part. Eventually things will level off and hi-tech machining will be one of the elements at the fabricator's disposal - not the whole picture.

The hot rod industry has already went through this. The 80s and 90s were dominated with billet aluminum everything, but over the last decade hand fabrication has reclaimed its place. The funny thing about it is that it probably takes as much time to give a CAD part the hand-crafted look as it takes to make a hand-crafted part as precise as a milled piece. The motor mounts should illustrate this when they're finally cut. I have an insane amount of time in them already to develop an antique-looking final product, that can be machined reasonably. There's a reason most of the CNC'd suff you see looks so similar...

The Inhaler will incorporate as many different techniques as possible. I want to demonstrate what is possible with different methods, and my comprehension of their advantages and limitations.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to the task at hand:

Still working on the rear motor mount model. The immediate project is developing a strong, aesthetically-interesting, mounting "foot" that will allow the whole thing to be cut in a reasonable amount of time, and without requiring too many setups. It'll be interesting to see what the CNC guy thinks about this.








The huge bolts are .75 x 2.5", full-thread, 12pt, plain steel, monsters. I wanted them to be titanium but the supplier I normally go through doesn't have a titanium version this large. I'll keep looking, or have these plated with something interesting. They do have stainless, socket-head, bolts this size, but I prefer the look of the 12pt.


I also ordered the track nose, and a couple 38-39 Ford tail light lenses, today. I am contemplating ordering a couple more chunks of 6061 for the velocity stacks, etc. I am trying to keep enough stuff here so that I can get something done when stars of time and inclination line up.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is that supposed to be cut from a single block?  Looks as if it would take forever, but I don't know CNC.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is that supposed to be cut from a single block?  Looks as if it would take forever, but I don't know CNC.


Yup, and it will definitely be in the machine for a little while!  The main factor that will increase the machine time though is my insistence on using 6061. His CNC could actually hog this out relatively fast if I had used cast tooling plate - which he actually prefers - but I need 6061 for marketing purposes. When people hear "6061 aircraft aluminum" they smile and/or nod in approval... The difference is 6061 will warp if it's cut too fast.

My all-time favorite hot rod has CNC-machined wheel centers that reportedly took 24 hours EACH to machine, and reduced 80lb blocks of billet to 12lb art pieces! Comparatively, I am starting with a 50lb billet, removing a lot less material from it, and (purposely) with far less detail.

Honestly, for racing purposes, I could fabricate a much lighter part in a fraction of the time. This is about marketing though, and the extra pounds are worth it to me. That fabricated part would never match the sculptured look of something being chiseled from a solid mass. Remember, the goal is to make this old GE look like something out of a spaceship, but somehow totally appropriate in an old hot rod.

Wait til you see the velocity stacks, and forced air setup!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the look! And yes the final pass is going to take forever. If you're going to watch the machine you better order a pizza or bring along sack lunches and appropriate refreshments. 

One point of concern is how much cross section will the remaining material have that the bolts pass through (washer surface to large flat surface)? Will it be enough to hold the motor and it's applied torque?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MJ Monterey said:


> I like the look! And yes the final pass is going to take forever. If you're going to watch the machine you better order a pizza or bring along sack lunches and appropriate refreshments.
> 
> One point of concern is how much cross section will the remaining material have that the bolts pass through (washer surface to large flat surface)? Will it be enough to hold the motor and it's applied torque?


Maybe a couple of bolts through from the back, in the thickest section, to spread the load across a larger area might help. Or maybe some dowels or large pins if you don't want then to show?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I like the look! And yes the final pass is going to take forever. If you're going to watch the machine you better order a pizza or bring along sack lunches and appropriate refreshments.
> 
> One point of concern is how much cross section will the remaining material have that the bolts pass through (washer surface to large flat surface)? Will it be enough to hold the motor and it's applied torque?


Thanks MJ! Maybe I'd better bring a date. We could go out to dinner, catch a movie, and still be back in time to see the real show!

Good eye. As it is in the current model, there is about .125" at the thinnest point. I haven't checked the exact dimensions yet but, since this mounts to a 3" round tube, there is a bit more material on the outer edges (top and bottom). More importantly, there are approximately 14" of linear contact, along the crossmember, and that whole section is purposely pretty stout. The motor would have to generate enough torque, assuming nothing else fails, to lift itself completely off the tube to place a significant amount of stress on that surface.

This is basically a glorified motor plate, like the simple flat pieces used in drag racing. The steel plates are commonly .090" thick, and the aluminum .1875" or .250". The reason they don't have to be massive is the motor's twisting force is must drive one side through the steel frame member it is mounted to, in order to lift the other side. Remember it's pivoting from the output shaft centerline. So, more than trying to rip the plate away from the bolt, the torque reaction will push the other side down into the crossmember.

Finally, knowing me, I will add two more .500" bolts, spaced evenly, between them that will come up through the crossmember into the mount. It's a snap to model, and will only take the CNC a matter of minutes to drill and thread the holes while it's machining the mounting surface. Similarly, it won't take me long to weld a couple sleeves in the crossmember. I just haven't made it to that point in the model, because I have been focused on getting the mounting "foot" ironed out.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Maybe a couple of bolts through from the back, in the thickest section, to spread the load across a larger area might help. Or maybe some dowels or large pins if you don't want then to show?


See, like I said, our projects may be on different ends of the spectrum but we think similarly. Creative problem solving!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I would feel good with two more bolts from the back.

Carve on!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Major custom projects reach a point where they kind of take on a life of their own - the Inhaler has finally reached that point. I struggled through all the initial build stuff to get to this point, but now that I am in my element the design work is flowing. Before I had to force myself into the project, now it's hard to stop. I am actually working on designs for parts all over the vehicle, and each one influences what I do on the next.

The next adrenaline shot will be seeing the body parts and motor mounted and it actually begin to look like the artwork! My design is also playing out as intended in this regard. I set the build plan so that there would be a major accomplishment to provide mental boosts at strategic points in the process. If I see it rolling around (on Flintstone power) by late March/Early April I should have enough momentum to have it moving under its own power for the Goodguys show here in July.

From the point of mounting the motor and body, to being able to drive at golf cart speeds just requires a driveshaft, some batteries, contactor, fuse, diode, wiring, etc. Under a grand... Wish me luck.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> From the point of mounting the motor and body, to being able to drive at golf cart speeds just requires a driveshaft, some batteries, contactor, fuse, diode, wiring, etc. Under a grand... Wish me luck.


Once you realize that all you need is X, Y, Z until you can DRIVE IT! There is no way to stop at that point....assuming you have in your possesion at least the minimum necessary to make things move I personally could not tear myself away from a project until that moment. My maiden voyage was at 4:30 am, freezing cold, with a bare potentiometer held in one hand after I realized that i was just a few components away from that critical moment at 6pm the previous day. Nothing like the first time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tail light lenses and track nose arrived today! The lense size is perfect. I needed them to build the housings and stems. Ultimately, I will have the lenses re-cast in clear (real glass hopefully), and will use LED bulbs in a custom reflector. That's all I can tell for now, shhhh!









The track nose looks bigger in person that I thought it would, but I love the shape. I will be trying some mock-ups with the body soon...









I need to put a camera in my budget. I took these with a friend's camera - much better than my cell phone pics, eh?


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## timmac (Feb 24, 2010)

Hey Toddshotrod, I was looking at your project and thought about this car at our local car meet here in Las Vegas, here is some shots of it, sort of what you are doing, it also won best of show, its a true Electric Rat Rod..

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/evprnstr.jpg

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/highvoltagezillaroadster.jpg

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/roadstermotor.jpg

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/hatersruber.jpg

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/borisandroadster.jpg

http://www.grassrootsev.com/images/vehicles/tadandstuart.jpg


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've thought about building it as a rat rod many times, but I just can't do it! I have to at least aim for a finished vehicle. Being race-oriented means it will evolve in use, as opposed to being spit-shined in the garage before being seen in public, but my goal is always to come as close to perfection as possible.

I'm glad I drug my feet on the body, and put my attention into the CAD models instead of cutting the parts up. I brought the track nose inside for a couple hours and stared at it, while doing my school work. I was trying to acclimate myself to the size. I propped one of the Woodlites up beside it, and the nose (in its current size) definitely brings the lights down to scale. Then, I studied pictures of some of my favorite hot rods, observing the scale and balance between components.

I took the nose to the garage, and propped it up in front of the chassis. It doesn't look bad; and it was too high and too far forward, because it needs to be notched to fit over the rack and crossmember. I pulled the steering wheel and shaft, and sat the body on the frame; then propped the bed up behind the body. I quickly realized that I have some options on how I want to modify and mount the bodywork. Suffice it to say, I saw something...

As I said, the project has reached the point where the designs and ideas are all starting to influence each other. It's taking on a life of its own now, and the direction is increasingly more "antique" in appearance. I did some preliminary sketching last night, and will fire up Photoshop to test some ideas over the next few days.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks as if I might have given you some incorrect info on the airflow direction of the motor. Seems as if most motors pull air in from the CE to cool the brushes first and out the DE, and motor dust is not the main concern. Some motors do it the other way, so you should check to be sure, but it's probably in at the CE end. Sorry if I messed up any designs


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Looks as if I might have given you some incorrect info on the airflow direction of the motor. Seems as if most motors pull air in from the CE to cool the brushes first and out the DE, and motor dust is not the main concern. Some motors do it the other way, so you should check to be sure, but it's probably in at the CE end. Sorry if I messed up any designs


Hey JRP3, absolutely no harm done. Thanks for remembering and coming back to clarify. I was going to post here about that or PM you. As I was working on the design for the forced air setup, blowing into the DE ports just wasn't working as well with my motor mounts (aesthetically). I looked on one of the EV supplier sites at a forced air setup and saw that it was deisgned to blow into the CE. I figured if it works on a Warp motor, it should be good enough for mine. I was planning on posting here before I start whittling aluminum and fabricating the setup, to make sure I wasn't missing something critical.

My forced air setup is total overkill, by the way!  The generic blocks in the rendering are to hide my real intentions. The plenum under the stacks is going to be machined, in pieces, from 6061 billet and TIG welded together. The shape is so complex that even a 5-axis mill wouldn't be able to cut it from a single block. Oops, almost started typing too many details.  It's the proverbial "icing on the cake" to finish off the appearance of my big GE in the custom mounts.

Also, the latest round of body mods are working perfectly! I should be able to share soon. Nothing revolutionary this time. The same little brown truck as in the last one; I just tweaked the proportions a little. Saves me a ton of work, and actually makes the truck look a bit more "mature" aesthetically. I am considering one additional component to the bodywork, that would make a significant contribution to the overall appearance of the truck. A penny if anyone can guess what it is.

By the way, I never answered my last riddle. When i was working on the blue, bubble-cab, version I humorously asked if anyone could identify something really trick hidden in the design. It was the doors. To make it possible to get in that tiny cab, with a full NHRA cage, the body was two halves hinged scissor/gullwing style. The massive billet hinges that allowed the side to pivot up like the lovechild of a Lamborghini and a gullwing Mercedes were going to be one of my key design features. I eventually realized that in the time it would take me to get all that ironed out and working to my standards, I could have done so many other parts. After four and a half decades, I am finally starting to get a grip on my Superman complex and realize that just because I believe I _can_ doesn't necessarily mean I _should_...

More to come...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> A penny if anyone can guess what it is.


A spoiler   Trailer hitch, roof, fenders?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> A spoiler   Trailer hitch, roof, fenders?


Chrome fuel tank?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...roof...?


Ding, ding, ding! Would you like to receive your penny via US Mail or Paypal? 

When I nixed the roof (transition from blue bubble-cab to brown roadster) I did so knowing that I have the option to run a traditional T-style ragtop. The problem is it never looked right because I had the body sectioned down so low that the roof looked out of proportion, if it was high enough to fit under. When I raised the body up to match what I have mocked-up in the garage, the roof fit! I have the option of running the ragtop roof now, and hiding a full cage. The best thing is I can concentrate on getting the truck setup and running and add the roof whenever I get to it. The design doesn't depend on it, and I'm nowhere near doing the cage yet...

In my opinion, it goes from neat little roadster pickup, to almost sinister-looking machine with the roof...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Chrome fuel tank?


Ahahaha! Priceless! You get a penny for that - I'll make yours a nickel to be fair JRP3!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My current to-do list is finishing the motor mount models, and revising the art. The CNC guy should be back in town now, so I am going to try to schedule something with him this weekend to look at the models and make sure he's up for the challenge. I will probably pick up some foam, MDF, or the stuff he likes, next week to cut some mock-ups...

I've all but given up on the idea of racing a SepEx, so I plan to incorporate mounting holes in the mounts for a Warp 11HV. Since Netgains has the CAD drawings available, and since the motors are nearly identical in size, that should be a snap. The plan is to use this SepEx motor, likely with a Kelly controller, to get the truck running at real road speeds to work all the kinks out. In the meantime, I will be tucking pennies aside for the Warp 11HV, a 2K controller, and a fierce battery pack. This motor and controller will possibly be bounced down to another EV project (I've had a couple in mind for the last year that would be great with this setup).

I had the new rendering about 50% there and accidentally started shutting my computer down (meant to put it in hibernation). For some dumb reason I didn't save about half of the work I had done and didn't realize what was going on until Photoshop had been forcibly shut down. Back to the drawing board... 

_*Edit:*_ I was sleepy when I wrote all that and forgot to include my other option which is to have this motor rewound, or rebuilt, as a series motor. Jim gave me the Hyster part number for a basically identical GE 11-inch series motor. I can find one of those and use the coils, etc, to rebuild this one, build that one and replace this one, or have him rewind this motor. I actually prefer the idea of having a motor custom wound but have noticed he seems to be a bit reluctant to fully discuss the idea. The fact that I bought a used forklift motor started our discussions with him thinking "budget". I explained in my last email that I come from ICE drag racing, and understand the concept of "pay to play". I also need to shop around for other builders.

The point is I am planning to go series, when I start racing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As you know Jim's services are in high demand, he may simply not have the time. He's completely stopped posting on any of the boards as far as I know.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> As you know Jim's services are in high demand, he may simply not have the time. He's completely stopped posting on any of the boards as far as I know.


Hey JR,

I've recently had contact with Jim. I am fairly certain he would have time for business. Try not to discourage people from giving him money making opportunities 

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not my intent at all  Good to know he's available, I was actually worried he might be having more health problems. He used to be so active on the boards and he's been MIA for quite a while and hasn't updated his website either.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

He communicates fairly quickly through email, considering how busy he is, and has been very helpful. I would recommend him to anyone, and normally wouldn't hesitate to spend a few dimes in his shop.

The issue I have seems to be philosophical. I am very competitive, and when I start racing I believe in striving for the absolute maximum. Every time I have enquired about what it would take and what it would cost to build a full-on race motor he seems to want to talk me down to something more reasonable. I want the person building my motor to have the opposite approach. I want the builder to have ideas and plans that are a bit beyond my means. Then, I can either push harder to pay the piper, or talk that person down to what I can match.

Physically building the motor isn't my problem. The shop doing my CNC work is actually a race engine shop, and the owner has a PhD in engineering. I am sure he could handle the challenge of building the motor, after a short learning curve from ICE building. He's already somewhat familiar with EVs and electric motors, and is looking forward to helping with the Inhaler's mcahine work. What we both lack is the knowledge of "what to do" to the motor. We both have day-jobs, businesses, and school (I believe he's pursuing a second doctorate), so there just isn't any available time to learn it right now.

When I finally build a race motor, I want an absolute beast. If I need to work more to afford it, so be it. If I kill it in the process of exploring its potential, so be it. I just don't want to spend the money, say "I wish I would have", and start spending all over again. There's always a learning curve/growth cycle with racing, but you can really shorten that by doing it "right" the first time. I believe I did my part on the chassis by taking the time, and spending the effort, to develop a chassis that has the potential to control massive doses of torque - I want a motor to match it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally made it to the CNC shop to discuss the motor mounts. He said machining it will not pose problem. He also estimates it will take approximately *100 hours* from the time the first chip flies, until the machine makes its final pass!!! 

He asked me to beef up the design in some areas, to make sure the rear mount won't be the weak link in the chain - no matter how far I go in racing the Inhaler. After I finish the revisions he's going to do an FEA on it to see how it will hold up to the torque of full-on race-built e-motor! You guys were on the right track, in wanting me to beef up the outside mounting feet. Just wait until you see its new "shoes!" It's going from imported loafers to combat boots!  He wants me to increase the minimum section width of the mount (where it touches the motor's DE surface) to .750" too. It's going to be a heavy sucker, but strong enough for an earth mover.

This is what I was talking about. He believes in pushing things to the absolute limit, and then cranking the dial up a few notches. He always wants to make sure I at least know what it takes to get there first. If it's not feasible we figure out a different plan, but the first round of talks is about the maximum effort.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I finally made it to the CNC shop to discuss the motor mounts. He said machining it will not pose problem. He also estimates it will take approximately *100 hours* from the time the first chip flies, until the machine makes its final pass!!!


That would make one hell of a YouTube video!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That would make one hell of a YouTube video!


 Haha! Better bring a big bucket of popcorn, a keg of soda, and a catheter!

A camera set up to do time-lapse shots would be sweet! Condense a 100 hours down to like five minutes and you would see the 3" billet plate almost melt down into a piece of automotive sculpture!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I know nothing about CNC, but couldn't you save a lot of time by roughing in the basic shape on a bandsaw or something?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I know nothing about CNC, but couldn't you save a lot of time by roughing in the basic shape on a bandsaw or something?


Not on this part. The only thing that could be knocked off on a band saw are the top corners, everything else is a matter of carving a piece of sculpture from a solid block of aluminum. A part of the time is because extrusions (like my 6061) can't be cut really fast without warping. So the machine has to carefully chip material out, rather than hog it out at maximum speed.

The biggest reason is because I didn't do simple, typical, machining process oriented shapes. I am aiming for high-budget clients, and demonstrating to them what is possible when money is not an issue. The motor mounts on the Inhaler would start out at around $25K, and go up from there depending on how far the person wanted to go in finishing them. That's design, materials, machining, finishing, etc. That reminds me, I was supposed to have some type of insurance before I started putting this stuff on it. If someone broke in my garage right now I would mainly lose a lot of good deals on parts and supplies, plus a little time to set up the chassis. All the real time invested has been in the design work, so far. That changes when they become tangible parts...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hard to believe there is still a big market for that type of stuff these days. $25K is about twice my total build costs  I realize it's an apples to hamsters comparison, but still.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Could you make a hollow plastic model using stereo-lithography and cast the part instead? There are online prototyping shops that will mail you a plastic part if you email them a solid model. Might be cheaper than 100 hours of machine time. 



toddshotrods said:


> Not on this part. The only thing that could be knocked off on a band saw are the top corners, everything else is a matter of carving a piece of sculpture from a solid block of aluminum. A part of the time is because extrusions (like my 6061) can't be cut really fast without warping. So the machine has to carefully chip material out, rather than hog it out at maximum speed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Hard to believe there is still a big market for that type of stuff these days. $25K is about twice my total build costs  I realize it's an apples to hamsters comparison, but still.


I know. I sold my shop just as the recession was starting to really hit home, and started planning to reopen as a design firm. I've been tracking the high-end custom automotive market over the past year and a half, and it is largely unaffected so far. The entire luxury goods market has really fared pretty well through the downturn. The kind of people who buy this stuff enjoy recessions because they can buy everything at a discount. That leaves extra money to play with their toys!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

etischer said:


> Could you make a hollow plastic model using stereo-lithography and cast the part instead? There are online prototyping shops that will mail you a plastic part if you email them a solid model. Might be cheaper than 100 hours of machine time.


Theoretically, I could. The additional costs of designing a cast part that has the structural integrity of a machined from billet part, plus the cost of developing a high-quality investment casting, machining the critical mounting points, and then having it heat-treated... I don't think I would save anything. I might also lose the interest of my customers, because "cast" doesn't carry the same wow factor as "billet", "6061", "aircraft aluminum", "CAD", "CNC", etc.

I do have some parts that will be cast, because machining them just doesn't make sense. They're cosmetic parts that won't be subjected to this kind of abuse though. The grille trim ring and gauge panel are two examples. Each would probably take a 150-200lb block of aluminum to machine, and hundreds of hours. They can be cast for a fraction of the tiem and materials though.

It just part of the process guys! Good things come to those who wait.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

That 100 hour figure is even more than I guessed it would be! Do you have one flat facet in that design, other than the foot and motor back? 

Four days in a machine shop would make for a conclusive date though! 

Glad your guy gives you good constructive feedback.

Grabbing ethereal popcorn in anticipation of version 2 and sitting on the edge of my seat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> That 100 hour figure is even more than I guessed it would be!...


Me too, I was honestly guessing 15-20hrs. I wasn't completely surprised when he said 100, and I actually smiled  because it gave me another confirmation that my creative processes are aiming in the right direction. I can't afford to build a million-dollar-plus vehicle right now, but I want to demonstrate that I can think on that level.



MJ Monterey said:


> ...Do you have one flat facet in that design, other than the foot and motor back? ...


Nope  I like curves, love organic shapes, so I've added a few more while revising the feet...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With all the hubbub about the CAD/CNC stuff I forgot about the rendering. I finished it yesterday to hang a poster in the CNC shop. I figure the whole poster might be more interesting than just a Photoshop rendering...








The main difference is the bodywork is higher. The bucket is on top of the frame rails (notice the panels covering the frame rails), and the nose is not squashed down. There is still a 2-3" wedge section on the body, which I will do eventually. I noticed that I like the way it looks (in the garage) sitting on top of the frame, and decided to see if it would work in design - I think it did. As mentioned previously, it also allows me to get a "T" style ragtop worked in with the right proportions to the body. The top will be added whenever I can get to it, and will be carbon fiber. Its purpose is to conceal the roll cage. I am soooo glad I can go back to a legal cage now! The open sides of the ragtop, and taller body, also give enough room to squeeze in without needing the whole side of the cab to open, like I had to do in the blue bubble-cab version. I plan to officially hang the bodywork soon. That'll be a snap since I don't have to cut it into pieces and reglass it just to get it on the chassis.

Pics will be coming...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Nope  I like curves, love organic shapes, so I've added a few more while revising the feet...


Why don't you throw in some toes with claws while you're at it


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the looks of the top. A couple of keep your eye on type concerns...

You'll be generating a little down force with the top. As long as you have the material strength to take the impact air and also transfer to body/frame all is good.

Looking at the side shot. How high up will your eyes be? From the looks of the drawing, unless your eye level is the back of the cab you will not be able to see traffic lights and such with the top on. If I remember you are looking at some street driving. If so, from experience, constantly leaning over to the passenger's side to see traffic lights sucks!

More curves on the mount is cool though. I'm a sucker for flowing curves...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like your 'Wanted' poster.

One thing I might say though. How sustainable is machining huge lumps of billet aluminium?

You should check with the shop what the electricity consumption would be on the CNC machine for the job.
I bet it is not as bad as my electricity bill for all the welding I am doing on the tractor!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Why don't you throw in some toes with claws while you're at it


I think we have a heckler in the audience folks! Rofl - toes!?  



MJ Monterey said:


> I like the looks of the top. A couple of keep your eye on type concerns...
> 
> You'll be generating a little down force with the top. As long as you have the material strength to take the impact air and also transfer to body/frame all is good.
> 
> ...



The top will be carbon fiber, not canvas, so it should be up to the task of channeling the downforce into the chassis. Since it will be literally laying on the cage, that will be an easy task. Good eye though.
Honestly, it's going to be a b!+ch to see while driving on the street, but that is a compromise I am willing to live with. At my height (5'4") my line of sight will be perfectly aligned with the windshield (actually focused on the road ahead). Everything else will be a challenge to see. Side vision should be good though. Fore and aft vision will be the same as driving a radically chopped car, with a slit for a windshield. Just life in a radical hot rod. The beauty of the T-style roof is it gives a lot more headroom than the average chopped top would, and looks right doing it. I have room for the cage bars, and specified clearance under it with a helmet on - without ending up almost laying on my back! Remember, the main mission is marketing. Secondary is performance, and that is really an extension of the marketing potential - proof in the pudding, so to speak.
Me too (sucker for flowing curves). It definitely flows more now. It just kind of pours from the main plate into the base, but has some interesting contours along the way to add a little variety to the light bouncing into your eyes. The problem is I don't want to interrupt any of those surfaces with a mounting bolt now!  The small foot, with the imported loafer, was designed specifically just to carry a bolt. The bolt head was the centerpiece of the design out there. This time, I made the foot itself the star of the show. Now it doesn't want to share the stage with a bolt head. I know, I'm crazy. My designs are like living entities to me... 
A side note, while I'm on that subject. The original mounting foot was designed, as mentioned, to highlight the bolt head. The 12pt in the model was a stand-in. Eventually I planned to have my own design bolts and nuts cut for key places on the Inhaler, but didn't want to show my design yet.

I have to play with ideas for mounting bolts this week, and look at some of the tensile and shear ratings for different bolts. I also have some ideas to fabricate special sleeves for the crossmember that will spread the torque over a wider area on it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like your 'Wanted' poster.
> 
> One thing I might say though. How sustainable is machining huge lumps of billet aluminium?
> 
> ...


Thanks. Actually the process could be pretty responsible. I've noticed the CNCs don't seem to draw the amperage you would expect and, as you noted, welders definitely pull some. Casting, machining, and heat treating, may actually use more energy. Fabricating a less aesthetically interesting part may also be in the same neighborhood because of the amount of welding involved, plus machining the individual parts that would be welded.

Finally, the chips can be recycled. I have some cast parts to do as well, and I could actually clean up the chips and give them to the casting guy. I'd bet his foundry uses more energy to melt the aluminum than the CNC does to cut it.

Cool, I hadn't really considered this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, because I will at least keep an eye on it in the future. The appearance and performance of the parts can't be compromised, but if there are two options to accomplish the same result I'll choose the most sustainable route. That could add a little extra detail to the marketing plan.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I think we have a heckler in the audience folks! Rofl - toes!?
> 
> 
> The top will be carbon fiber, not canvas, so it should be up to the task of channeling the downforce into the chassis. Since it will be literally laying on the cage, that will be an easy task. Good eye though.
> ...



1. For the top I was concerning the transfer of force from the windshield post to the cage/frame. Just making sure you have a plan so the cowl does not collapse.

2. Being 6' 2" most cars feel like chopped tops to me. Just had the low top thing reinforced the other day when I could not see even one traffic light at a major intersection in town. The high lights where hidden by the top and the light by the side walk was covered by the rear view. And then came the fond memories of summer looking at signal light over the windshield of my Spitfire and how nice it was with fender mirrors so that I could look out the whole windshield......

3. Soon I'll share my supportive comment on curves. A couple of more design tweaks, and I can go for public feed back. But for now lets just say I'm in the same chapter.

MJ


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> 1. For the top I was concerning the transfer of force from the windshield post to the cage/frame. Just making sure you have a plan so the cowl does not collapse.
> 
> 2. Being 6' 2" most cars feel like chopped tops to me. Just had the low top thing reinforced the other day when I could not see even one traffic light at a major intersection in town. The high lights where hidden by the top and the light by the side walk was covered by the rear view. And then came the fond memories of summer looking at signal light over the windshield of my Spitfire and how nice it was with fender mirrors so that I could look out the whole windshield......
> 
> ...



Ah, I see what you're getting at. Good point, and easy to deal with. The windshield frame can be tied directly into the cage, so that any downforce reacting on it would also be transmitted to the chassis.
Every once in a while I have to remind myself to make sure "normal" people can fit inside. I end to forget that I am "vertically challenged" and don't want to be stuck with a vehicle that I can only sell to someone my height or shorter (if that's even possible).
Curiousity peaked.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I just had to share this: 








Usually really glamorous artwork is done at the beginning of a hot rod project to guide the project. Artistic license usually also produces an image that is not practical to duplicate in the real world. Since my art has been trailing the project, to help me sort out ideas, it is usually not very glamorous and is really just meant for me to see certain combinations of parts and modifications together before spending money on them.

For instance with my latest rendering, in addition to raising the mounting height of the bodywork, and actually leaving the main body at its stock rear height, I changed to a more radical nose-down/butt-up forward rake. Many artists exaggerate this to really paint the picture, and set the mood for the build. Example:









So I decided to see how the real Inhaler stacks up with what's in the renderings and in my brain {{}} by sticking the roof from the rendering on one of the last pics I took of it. I think the real deal looks more intense than the rendering, by a long shot! The more I look at this pic, the more I like it! I probably won't go too far with it because it's based on one of my blurry cell phone pics, but it's serving its purpose.


A few notes:

The windshield looks ridiculously small because the body has to be wedge sectioned, which will lower the cowl two-three inches, without affecting the rear wall height.
The bed is just laying there and is a bit too low in the front. The actual angle will be set to match the angle of the top of the body, after the wedge section.
The nose is way too high, and way too far forward. That's as far back and down as it would go over the crossmember and steering rack, until I notch it to fit.
As I noted before, the project is taking on a life of its own. It's much more antique-looking than what I started out to build. It was always supposed to be heavily race-oriented, but over time I realized that I prefer a more sophisticated appearance, with a race car in its soul.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Special Report! Man with robotic tentacle attacks Inhaler's motor!








The mounting pattern has been digitized! The plan is to finish the model and turn it over to him by the coming weekend! Counting down to 100 hours of chip flying, aluminum whittling, madness! 

The big dude on his left is the 4-axis mill that will be chewing on my aluminum plates. He prefers them to chips and salsa.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As posted here, am I correct in assuming the drive end can be rotated freely with no effect on the motor's operation and functionality? My drive end bolts on with six bolts, and I want to rotate it to make the mounting pattern fall where I want it to on the motor mount, while keeping the rest of the motor stuff (terminals, air ports, etc). If I just pull the bolts, spin it around, and bolt it back up, will my motor run like it did originally?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The drive end has no electrical connections and so should rotate to any orientation without problems I think.

Though slightly different, when we was working on ac motors on machines we would sometimes rotate the end caps to facilitate mounting.

I don't think the orientation of the motor has any effect, only the position of the com end relative to the frame of the motor and hence the field coils.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Woody. That's basically the same feedback I received in the other thread from a member with the same motor, so I should be good to go. I am going to pull the bolts and see if the drive end rotates freely tonight or tomorrow. I've been experimenting with different degrees of rotation in CAD off and on today to find out what will work best with the mount. I think I've found a combination that puts everything where I need it to be.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The title fight, of course, is the heavyweight, prize-fight, CNC vs rear motor mount. Until then, coming soon, will be a quick CNC vs driveshaft adapter. I got an email around 11:30 this morning saying the 4140 for the adapters was in the machine! I wish I could have been there to at least shoot some cell phone videos, but I had to work.  As soon as he gets one cut, and I can make it across town, I will get some "highlight footage" of the finished product.

I also just ordered a compact Nikon, so I can load up on quality pics and youtube videos, as it starts going together. I am off all next week for spring break, and plan to get some work done on my vehicles. I definitely want to get the rear mount model wrapped up and in his hands ASAP, hoping that the whittling starts on it that week. I should have the camera Tuesday...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In a flurry of fury, the CNC whittles side one to receive the PTO hub:

















Hardened-steel pins transfer the torque; while the bolts lock the two pieces together.









More to come...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Confirming I am remembering correctly.

PTO hub will be driven by splines on the motor.

PTO hub will drive this adapter (through the hardened pins)

The other side of this adapter will accept a U-joint flange.

My brain is fuzzy from new career training.......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Confirming I am remembering correctly.
> 
> PTO hub will be driven by splines on the motor.
> 
> ...


Your brain is clear enough to picture this setup correctly!  It will work exactly as you described it.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Looking good! And FYI, you've got a PM.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

(...ring girl struts around with big sign) "Round 2":


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)




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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Is this part hidden inside the Sculpted mount? 

Seeing a cut line and no chamfers, radii, grooves, or other embellishments on the perimeter, from my rocking chair 2000 miles away, feels a bit more prototype than finished product. 

Not meant as an attack just a curious observation.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It should be hidden inside the mount.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks JRP. I know it's a driver but it has a second job as showpiece. Just wanted to make he has the visual part covered of "beauty through simplicity".

MJ


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Is this part hidden inside the Sculpted mount?
> 
> Seeing a cut line and no chamfers, radii, grooves, or other embellishments on the perimeter, from my rocking chair 2000 miles away, feels a bit more prototype than finished product.
> 
> Not meant as an attack just a curious observation.


Haha! If I put this part on the rear motor mount, I'll let you rap my knuckles with a straight edge, like a mean elementary school teacher! 

*That is the driveshaft adapter.* It's not a part of the rear motor mount, but will be behind it. As for the lack of _"chamfers, radii, grooves, or other embellishments on the perimeter"_ - it ain't over yet! The Inhaler's driveshaft adapter will be carefully hand detailed eventually (okay, maybe a little hand-guided machine work too). The point here was to develop a part that can be sold for a reasonable cost. Those "chamfers, radii, grooves, or other embellishments...", as seen in the case of the rear mount, involve lots of machine time and make parts unfeasible for the average guy/gal.

In my case, I will be showing another design strategy - what can be done with a regular production type part with elbow grease and attention to detail.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The official order is:
*Showpiece* - first and foremost. Above everything, superceding all, it must be art on wheels!


*Racer* - performance is essential to backing up the promise (proof's in the pudding). 



*Drive-able* - It will be street-legal, but never comfy as a typical daily driver. This is the least important aspect. As long as it has lights, etc.


Speaking of that, I am seriously contemplating air-over (Shockwaves) instead of the traditional steel coil-over sprung assemblies. They perform well on the autocross and, most importantly for me, they are silent! Now that I'm approaching assembly, it's time to start thinking about how it will feel and sound. I don't want to hear a single squeak or groan...

*NEWS FLASH!!!*
I'm at the machine shop now - I came to give him the final model for the rear mount, cross my fingers, and hopw he would say it's good...

*IT'S GOOD!!!*

He said it'll take him about a week and a half to program it, then the 80-100hr whittling process begins!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The good news:








The driveshaft adapter works perfectly and looks good doing it!


The bad news: I made a critical error on the rear mount model. I don't have to start over but I do have a lot of work to do to straighten it out. I messed up on my estimate for the size of the driveshaft adapter. When I put it on the motor I instantly realized that the opening is way too small, and a quick check with the model confirmed this. There is also not enough material there to simply bore a bigger hole - I have to rework the back of the mount...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At least you found out now


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> At least you found out now


You mean as opposed to when half of the 3" aluminum plate was laying in the bottom of the CNC machine!  Building hot rod stuff for a living for the past couple decades, I have learned to look at things from so many angles people usually become irritated and impatient with the process. They see it as nitpicking and being critical - I see it as doing the job right the first time.

This is the very reason the driveshaft adapter was made this early - to be certain there wouldn't be any interference between it and the rear mount. I had the measurements in a Spicer PDF, and had made a guesstimate regarding the final size of the assembly, but nothing compared to seeing it actually on the motor.

I'm halfway through the revisions. I just channeled my frustration in to CAD time.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Nice compact fit for the adapter assembly on the motor!

Now I see it will be hidden by the rear mount.

Keep up the good work.

Back to 10g land....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Nice compact fit for the adapter assembly on the motor!...Back to 10g land....


Thanks. I finished the revised model, loaded it on a USB drive, and will be taking it to him a little later today - tomorrow at the latest. A one day delay isn't too bad...

Here's the big guy:








It took some experimenting but I finally found an orientation I like. The terminals are rotated down about twenty degrees or so from the bottom. This will allow the cables to run virtually out of sight from the frame rail, leaving the top of the motor clean.

Six big .750-10 bolts will keep it locked down (notice the new combat boots?). The seven mounting bolts that will be seen are set in special counterbores, with radiused walls to highlight the fasteners. There will be some hand detailing after it's cut, so there are a couple areas that weren't perfected in the model. While it's possible for the mill to leave a nearly polished surface, I need to see it in real life, on the vehicle, to determine whether or not I want to make any "final adjustments". It would be stupid to have the machine spend hours developing a perfect surface, only to take a die grinder to it!  Not to mention, it's already occupying a serious chunk of the CNC's time, and no show vehicle part is finished until is has been hand worked...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't remember, is this rigid mounted, or are there bushings on the end of the mounting bar that this is bolted to?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Can't remember, is this rigid mounted, or are there bushings on the end of the mounting bar that this is bolted to?


Completely rigid. After the mount has been machined, I will be fabricating a steel structure that will be welded in the crossmember. It will have threaded bushings on the outsides, with four sleeves on the inside, steel webbing between them, and a curved horizontal surface that will fit under and be welded to the crossmember.

The four center bolts will actually be studs, so that when the motor is installed you simply slide the studs down into the sleeves and install the bolts and nuts. All this locates the motor, locks it in place, and feeds the torque into the chassis properly.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Thanks JRP. I know it's a driver but it has a second job as showpiece. Just wanted to make he has the visual part covered of "beauty through simplicity".
> 
> MJ


 = Elegance


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Salty9 said:


> = Elegance


Bingo. I am happy that the vision for this project is coming across so well, and impressed that you guys are even using the keywords I have been following since the very beginning of it. I always set keywords for a design project to guide and measure the process.

For the Inhaler the theme has always been "Elegant, Minimalistic, Sophistication". Absolutely everything must be measured by that phrase. Minimalism is akin to simplicity.

One of the things I love most about design is you can go virtually anywhere. In this case, it's basically going to be a coach-built Model T pickup; but if a person had enough money back then to afford a coach-built automobile, why would he or she choose a Model T - and a truck on top of that! If the design is successful, it will pose the question, "why wouldn't he or she?!"


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

Yeah your project is really top notch. If i had the money and time to commit to something like this I would totally. It joins two of my main hobbies: technology and custom hotrods


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

procupine14 said:


> Yeah your project is really top notch. If i had the money and time to commit to something like this I would totally. It joins two of my main hobbies: technology and custom hotrods


Thanks pro. It's quite a journey - oscillating between exhilaration and exhaustion at times. Seeing the driveshaft adapter on the motor was awesome, but working through the revisions to get the rear mount ready was a two-day trip that left me dazed. I just take deep breaths and keep pushing because I have a long way to go to get _there_...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The engineer/machinist is translating the model into a language the CNC can understand. I can't do much with the front mount until the motor is in place, and I can take some measurements, etc. Since I want to keep my focus on the powertrain, I decided to start playing with the forced air system design.

The big question is: how much air does it take? The kit sold by EV Source looks like a commercial strength hair dryer type blower/motor ducted to a metal band. It appears that the band simply seals off the other ports of the Warp motor, and blows air into the one the ducting is located over. This doesn't seem like much air flow to me.

One option I looked at is using the fan wheel from a leaf blower, etc. It's a centrifugal design, like a small supercharger. I found one on Ebay, and the specs for the blower it comes from are: 483.8 cfm at the housing/310.8 cfm in the tube, 161 mph air speed, from a 2.7hp/2.0kw motor spinning up to 7500rpm.

In my design custom housing, I may or may not match the factory numbers but those specs give some clue as to the potential of the fan wheel itself. Does this even sound like it's in the ballpark for cooling a DC motor that's being pushed to the ragged edge?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There was a recent discussion here on external cooling fans, can't remember exactly which of the hundreds of threads I'm subscribed to. I'm sure there's a way to figure the maximum power the battery pack can deliver, times the efficiency of the controller, times the efficiency of the motor, come up with the amount of heat generated by the motor, and then calculate the amount of airflow needed to effectively remove that heat. I assume you'll still keep the internal fan and will supplement with an external?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yup, I'm keeping the internal fan. You're making my head hurt!  I was thinking more along the lines of Jim-Bob ran this kind of fan and never went over such-and-such a temperature type of tehnical analysis.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In this case you get to be Jim-Bob and tell us how it works


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

When it comes to cooling my understanding is that the mass of air is so insignificant compared to the mass of steel and copper that very little of your "peak" heat output is transferred to air flow. Instead its mostly all soaked up by the mass of the motor, and then transferred to the air over time. One of the reasons these motors have such high peak outputs, but much lower continuous ratings. 

I'd size your fan for around the continuous capabilities of the motor, say 300 amps. Assuming the average voltage over one hour is 48v, and the average current 300a, and the average efficiency 80% over that period.....(48x300 = 14,400 watts)...20% of that winds up as heat in the motor...(14,400 watts * .20 = 2880 watts of heat). I don't know how to translate that into CFM required

Of course, more doesn't hurt things  You probably just run into diminishing returns pretty quickly

But I'm not an expert.

I used the blower motor from the car's vent system. They move a ton of air (on full), can deal with some backpressure, and are widely available. This would be another source for a motor + blade to build a custom housing around. Might even already be able to get chrome ones for show cars. Leaf blower also sounds like a good combo of volume + pressure. Perhaps not designed for silence...

A loud blower really destroys the whole "stealth, silent EV" thing at stop lights and whatnot. But makes for a good pedestrian warning sound. 

If you want to get fancy.....thermostatically controlled fan speed to match heat output.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> In this case you get to be Jim-Bob and tell us how it works


Jim-Bob Perkins here, with a little help from Jeff, getting ready to take the plunge. I found a metal fan on Ebay from a leaf blower that has the right numbers - 535cfm/190mph at the end of the pipe! I just purchased the fan, and the plastic housings. The plan is to duplicate the inner surfaces of the housing, to maintain the engineering that produced the numbers. The main housing may end up being cast aluminum, with some machine work to finish it, and bolt-on CAD/CNC parts to mount the critical elements (motor and fan).

I am essentially going off the deep end, building a vintage-appearing centrifugal supercharger to cool the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just an update, because I can't contain myself, the main surfaces of the rear mount have been programmed! It is _possible_ that chips could fly as soon as this weekend!!!  Whenever it happens, I am just glad that it has made it this far, and the programing seems to be going well.

UPS also delivered my little compact Nikon Monday, so there will be clear pics and the occasional video of all the good stuff from now on.

Did I mention  ?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Seeing as how it will take a while for your bit of machining I thought I would post a bit of CNC work I saw today.

Our college had a day of visiting each other's departments and I made a friend in the engineering department called Mazak. 
This is what Mazak does:


It is a demonstration of machining a random engineering component to show what the college's new toys can do. 

I am already thinking of what I can ask the chaps there to machine for me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Seeing as how it will take a while for your bit of machining I thought I would post a bit of CNC work I saw today...


Sweet! That's one heckuva machine, those students should have a lot of fun "learning"...

My favorite parts were the tool changes!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> My favorite parts were the tool changes!


Yeah, that's what got them all excited at the begining of the vid. I just missed the first tool change as the camera phone was too slow to start up.

They have a matching Mazak lathe and a 3D printer too!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, I _think_ I've made some final decisions on the forced air system - _think_ being the operative word. I went back and forth, tossed in my sleep, sketched until my fingers were raw, and traveled the globe via Ebay and Google - yes, I am exaggerating! 

The big decision was whether to drive the fan from a pulley on the main motor's CE shaft or with it's own dedicated electric motor. The CE version had the most appeal on paper because there is no question about whether or not the main motor has enough torque to power it, and simple pulley changes could adjust the amount of cooling air delivered. It also looks cooler (play on words intended) and less likely to be equated to a huge hair dryer sitting on top of the motor. 

The disadvantage is it would only work when the vehicle is moving, since the Inhaler is direct drive. My grand plan to solve that is to build a hybrid system. It'll face forward and be driven by a pulley on the CE shaft of the main motor, and look pretty much like a vintage supercharger. Flowing from the back of it will be a plenum that mounts the three velocity stacks. Almost hidden in plain sight under the back of ,and inside, that plenum will be a heater blower motor! The kind with the plastic fan wheels that keep you nice and toasty on cold days. When stopped and/or when the main motor isn't turning fast enough to cool the beast this little motor will kick on and blow air through a separate runner in the plenum and into the cooling ducts going to the motor.

It will probably add less than ten pounds, make the system completely versatile, and only require twelve volts, a relay, and a switch or two to make work.

Wretched excess with a purpose!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think that would look really cool.

Have an air con type electric clutch on it and a big red over ride button on the gear stick like in Mad Max!

You know, I always wanted a blower Bentley. What I need is a kit car version and mount the motor where the blower is and then fill the under bonnet space with batteries!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I think that would look really cool.
> 
> Have an air con type electric clutch on it...


Thanks Woody. The original plan we discussed in the Random Motor Questions thread was exactly what you suggested - an a/c electric clutch on the CE, but I am thinking about just running it direct with a pulley. I wanted a way to turn the forced air system off so that I don't have to hear it all the time, and can go into stealthy silent mode. That was with the dedicated electric version. With the CE-driven fan it wouldn't be turning so fast when tooling around - especially since I'm shooting for 1200lbs, with a race-built 11" motor. At 5-10mph the motor would barely be turning, definitely under 1000rpm. Even geared up, I can't imagine the blower would be that loud. If I don't like it, I can always do the clutch later.

I started thinking about it, and trying to imagine it, and think the fact that the forced-air blower winding up with acceleration might be kind of appealing. Hopefully a hi-tech, 21st century, sound.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I started thinking about it, and trying to imagine it, and think the fact that the forced-air blower winding up with acceleration might be kind of appealing. Hopefully a hi-tech, 21st century, sound.


I think it was Bugatti back in 1927 when they found that they needed a blower on the type 35 to keep up in the grand prix. They put the blower in front of the carb instead of between the carb and the engine and that made a loud whistling noise that became a scream at speed.

That would be a good touch.

You could fit the blower with a small, cylindrical flywheel and one way clutch. The motor would spin it up and the fan would keep blowing for a while after the motor has stopped.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...You could fit the blower with a small, cylindrical flywheel and one way clutch. The motor would spin it up and the fan would keep blowing for a while after the motor has stopped.


Haha! Like a turbine!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...It'll face forward and be driven by a pulley on the CE shaft of the main motor, *and look pretty much like a vintage supercharger.* Flowing from the back of it will be a plenum that mounts the three velocity stacks...


I forgot the pics of a vintage supercharger 
















Mentally move the compressor forward, turn the stacks 90*, extend it back for one more of them, flip and move the gear box lump back under them, and you'll be in the neighborhood...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Have an air con type electric clutch on it and a big red over ride button on the gear stick like in Mad Max!


That's the exact image I had when discussing it in the other thread


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No big red Mad Max buttons guys!


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

'Gotta love the look of the old Flathead parts. I've been carting around a set of Ardun heads, for one of those, for years, just looking for the right project


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

those old superchargers always make me smile. They look like they are about one step away from steam punk and no one can deny that thats cool!


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Todd,

That supercharger is cool! I was picturing something like an old GMC blower, but this one's got class. What kind of condition is it in mechanically? I'm sure equivalent bearings are still available. I can picture it all polished up with some kind of filtered velocity stack for air intake. Go for it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

electromet said:


> Todd,
> 
> That supercharger is cool! I was picturing something like an old GMC blower, but this one's got class. What kind of condition is it in mechanically? I'm sure equivalent bearings are still available. I can picture it all polished up with some kind of filtered velocity stack for air intake. Go for it!


I'm not using that one!  That's just a picture of an old Frenzel, which will serve as my inspiration. I am designing and building the whole thing from scratch around the fan wheel from a leaf blower. My custom housing should look a lot like that though. The smooth, pancake style case, with lots of bolts, is key to making it look like it's from the right time period, and not a turbo...



electromet said:


> ...I was picturing something like an old GMC blower, but this one's got class...


That's why I posted an example of one, so people would understand what I was talking about. When you say supercharger most people instantly et a mental image of a Roots type blower.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Todd,

Since you're starting from scratch, make sure you use straight-cut gears. I love the howl of those Jackson gear drive timing sets.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What's life without an occasional diversion, right?  I have done well with keeping my focus on the Inhaler, and not getting distracted. My daily driver is in dire need of attention, because I have been focused on this project almost exclusively. As a result, I am oh so close to being able to actually feel it move under its own power, and actually look like a Model T soon. How do I celebrate that accomplishment - by getting distracted, of course! 

I've been dying to do an electric motorcycle since before I actually decided to convert the street rod to electric. I have owned a '72 Kawasaki H1-B, 500cc, oil-burning, smoke-spewing, two-stroke since 1983 (my first streetbike). Okay, all I actually have left of the bike is the neck (discarded the rest of the frame), the front forks, and the title. Technically, I still own the bike though...

So what better thing to do than to convert one of the worst air polluters in the history of personal transportation to a modern clean -air solution right?  The problem is I know me, and don't want scratching this little itch to get in the way of the Inhaler's progress. What I decided is to try to just sketch, model, render, collect parts, and do mock-ups with the parts, to give myself a creative outlet. Ideas that I wanted to do on this project, that won't fit my marketing plans, can hopefully be transferred to the e-bike. That would actually make it a healthy distraction because it would, theoretically at least, give me more peace with the narrow path the Inhaler must travel. At least that's what I'm telling myself... 

Other than the actual motorcycle parts I listed above, the first actual EV part I have for it is the Alltrax controller that will make the Inhaler move. I had always planned to pass this controller down to a less intense project - now I know where it's going. *Second EV part - I just bought a 7" GE series motor that should be perfect for the bike project!* I will throw a couple bucks at it from time to time - from the same R&R fund that I buy myself steak dinners, music, etc, but no major bucks until the Inhaler is much further down the road. I paid a hundred bucks, with tax and shipping, for the motor. After I'm sure I have everything I need to get the Inhaler's motor and body set up, I am going to pick up an orginal 500 Kaw gas tank and tail piece. The tank shell will cover the controller. Those two pieces will give the bike it's identity - as a reborn '72 Kawasaki 500. The frame, and most everything else will be custom - or it wouldn't be _me_.

A thread will probably follow when I get the motor, and have some pics to post.

This is all your fault Woody - you and that darn, too much fun, tractor project!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> What's life without an occasional diversion, right?  I have done well with keeping my focus on the Inhaler, and not getting distracted.
> 
> This is all your fault Woody - you and that darn, too much fun, tractor project!


Guilty as charged M'lud!

Actually I have been reorganising my workshops to fit in a new router table for my furniture work which involved making additional wall mounted storage and then moving the redundent floor standing storage into the 'tractor shed' and reorganising the tool storage there. 
That should have been finished today but I got a little distracted too.

Been out on a date!


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## Crawdaddy (Apr 6, 2010)

Todd,
Great project! It's the main reason I decided to join this board.
Q: for ya- since you've designed the rear motor mount, and from what I've gathered, not the front, how are you going to compensate the the tilt of the motor to properly phase the U-joints? If you have to lift/lower the motor via the front mount, won't that change where the screws/studs/etc. are designed to line up on the rear motor mount-to-crossmember interface?
Thanks,
John


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Been out on a date!


I haven't run across that kind of distraction _yet_, but I'm working on it... 

The most amazing thing has happened since I clicked the "Buy it Now" button - my focus with the Inhaler has improved! I started thinking about whether there were any other parts on, or planned for, the Inhaler that would be better on the bike. I quickly realized that I have a lot of carry-over parts that I have been trying to force-fit on the Inhaler, just because I had so much time invested in making them. I've been trying my hardest to design these parts into the Inhaler, thinking that they were crucial to it, and now I realize they don't even belong!

Even more amusing is the fact that they weren't designed for the street rod in the first place. I had a Camaro project, that I kept these parts from when I sold it. I started trying to make these parts fit the Inhaler soon after that - in early 2008! The truth is they never fit, never worked, but I have been trying to make them so long that I forgot where they actually came from!  The difference between that old stuff and the rear motor mount, which was actually designed for the Inhaler, is like night and day. The forced-air system is following the rear mount in being design-specific for the project, and light-years ahead of the old stuff.

The old parts I'm talking about are the pedal pads, steering wheel cap/horn button, shifter gate plate, and fuel filler trim ring. I've been trying to fit these parts, and continue the design theme off of them. I don't believe I ever posted pics of these parts on this forum, but will in the thread about the e-bike, when I get to that point. I did post a picture of the pedal assembly that I had on the street rod when it had the ICE. I had already decided that the only thing from that setup that will be likely to survive is the brake pedal.

All of this is my long-winded way of saying I made the right decision, and feel great about it!  The ideas that are flooding in to replace the parts that will be passed down to the bike are worth every penny of that hundred bucks, even if I never build the thing!

Free your mind...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Crawdaddy said:


> Todd,
> Great project! It's the main reason I decided to join this board.
> Q: for ya- since you've designed the rear motor mount, and from what I've gathered, not the front, how are you going to compensate the the tilt of the motor to properly phase the U-joints? If you have to lift/lower the motor via the front mount, won't that change where the screws/studs/etc. are designed to line up on the rear motor mount-to-crossmember interface?
> Thanks,
> John


Wow, that's a heck of a compliment! Thanks! 

Answer (with a 3D graphic ):








The rear mount is designed to fit on the 3-inch tubular crossmember. The crossmember won't be drilled for the sleeved and threaded insert, and the insert won't be welded in, until the motor is properly oriented for correct u-joint phasing. So, when I lower the motor into place, with the rear mount bolted to it, I will be able to rotate it on the crossmember, then mark it through the outer bolt holes. A template will establish the other points that must be opened up for the insert.

After all that has been completed, and the motor is bolted in, I will be able to finish the front mount design. I could actually do that now, and build the frame mounts to meet the front motor mount, but I want to see it in place and really nail the aesthetic apsect of the front mount. One of the reasons the designs take so long from idea to fabrication is taking all of this into account. It all has to appear to be factory-engineered, and not pieced together.


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## Crawdaddy (Apr 6, 2010)

Ahhhh.... that makes perfect sense. I didn't realize that the rear crossmember was undrilled.
The graphics really made your answer clear.
Thanks!
BTW- I really like the retro-hot rod cues that you're instilling. The velocity stacks definitely tie it all together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Crawdaddy said:


> Ahhhh.... that makes perfect sense. I didn't realize that the rear crossmember was undrilled.
> The graphics really made your answer clear.
> Thanks!
> BTW- I really like the retro-hot rod cues that you're instilling. The velocity stacks definitely tie it all together.


Cool.  I can't wait until you guys see the new design for the forced-air cooling system! Retro hot rod cues are the whole point of this project. After struggling to get past some basic setup issues, and then being overwhelmed with other-than-automotive stuff, I am finally in my element with this project. Now I get to concentrate on what I do best - design.

The goal is to answer the question, "what if Henry Ford had built an upscale, electric, Model T?" I have an article saved somewhere (can't remember what folder I put it in ) in which Henry Ford speaks favorably about electric vehicles. So this is a "_what if_" he had put his money where his mouth is project.

That's why I am so relieved with my decision to do the bike and have a place to dump my excess creative energy. The parts I spoke of were not Roaring Twenties, or even Fifties, designs they were modern stuff that I was trying to make look old. Now I have a clean slate, to do more stuff like the motor mount.

I know I talk too much...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back to the matter at hand. FedEx truck showed up today with the fan wheel, and plastic housings, and these are the first pic from my little Nikon:

























I get why this sucker can produce 535cfm and 191mph (at the end of the pipe) now - it's big! I was worried that the forced-air system would look puny on top of the 11" motor. I had it in my head that the whole thing would be around 9" in diameter; it's 13"! I can't wait to see how it looks over the motor (at work now).

The plastic housings are perfect. I am going to shave all the ribs and fastener crap off and then reshape some areas with clay. From there, the main housing will be recast in aluminum. I'm considering my alternatives for the plenum/auxillary fan housing. That could be cast or machined, or a combination of the two. The drive snout will be modeled and machined.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Model T Snail Rail! 

That should look good when you have cleaned it up and re cast it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Model T Snail Rail!...


Lol! 

Thanks to you, UPS also delivered the 6.7" GE motor for my distraction...  Trying to make some final decisions, and then I should be starting a thread, with pics of the motor and some parts. I think I scored, the motor is clean and pretty sweet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Test fit:








I rotated the motor to the approximate position it will be in the truck, and sat the housing on it to get an idea of how this will look. To my surprise, I found out that it's blowing just about directly into one of the cooling ports. I can do a really neat base that will allow it to feed the top two ports and block the bottom ones off. So far, so good...

Like how the old bellhousing from the ICE powertrain is now a motor cradle?  I was going to put some casters on it, but I hope that the motor begins spending most of its time in the vehicle soon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I didn't realize how large it was in relation to the motor. Not sure how that's going to look in the car, will it be blocking your vision? It's like a 671 on a 4 banger, or two on a V8


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't realize how large it was in relation to the motor. Not sure how that's going to look in the car, will it be blocking your vision? It's like a 671 on a 4 banger, or two on a V8


Lol!  It looks like it would be in the stratosphere, like that Goat's, but in reality it will just bring the motor up to the height of the body and track nose. The tops of the velocity stacks will be visible, but still not directly in my line of sight.

Also, the blower housing itself is only about four inches deep, so when you see it from the normal angles most of the unit above the motor will be much smaller. You won't be able to look at it and really see the size like this once it's in the vehicle because the track nose is a couple inches in front of it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It does look slightly out of proportion from your photo.
What we need is one of your great cad drawings to show it in perspective and relation to the rest of the car.

I think it will be fine once all the polished aluminium drive housing and inlet manifold are on.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...What we need is one of your great cad drawings to show it in perspective and relation to the rest of the car...


That could happen evenually, when I make some final decisions on what is going to be cast and what is going to be cut. I may have something better than that though. As soon as the rear mount is cut I will be working on installing the motor. When the motor is in place I can easily stick the forced-air setup on it for some pics. While he is machining the motor mount I will probably be modeling (3D and real-scale clay) the forced-air system, so the timing should work out for a sneak peek.



Woodsmith said:


> ...I think it will be fine once all the polished aluminium drive housing and inlet manifold are on.


Thanks, and it will. I know this looks big but that's what I need. I didn't really expect it to be this big, but I was pleased (ear-to-ear grin ) when I opened the box. The reason is overall proportions and balance. I want the Inhaler to be instantly recognizable as a Model T Ford. All the previous versions were focused on matching the body to the motor to highlight it. In the Model T versions, if you look at the renderings, I was pinching (narrowing) the firewall and wedge sectioning the body to come up with the motor-to-firewall balance or ratio that is common to a street rod. The problem is it alters the body so severely that it begins to lose its identity. There are some ways to remedy this but none of them worked well with the electric motor's size.

When I finally got to sit the body on the rolling chassis and see it outside I realized instantly what I needed to do. The T-bucket body is small enough - no channeling,pinching and sectioning required. I decided to refocus my efforts on making the motor match the body. An 11" motor is big in the EV world, but in an actual vehicle it's still very small. Even in my little "T" it's lost in the shuffle. My motor mount design was the first step. The mounts add size and dimension, making it more interesting to look at - despite it's relatively diminutive size. The forced-air system is my way of balancing the equation. It gives the proportions to make the vehicle look right, and the complexity to keep your attention. It's really comparable to the flathead Ford. Nice little motor as it is, but put a set of Ardun heads and a Frenzel supercharger on it and you have this awesome powerplant! The massive top-end components dominate the original flathead motor underneath them, but also make it something really special.

Just typical street rod stuff...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

For anyone using the big 11" GE SepEx, or any other motor with a 1.625" x 25-spline output shaft, I have a couple extra PTO disc hubs for sale. We were building a couple more direct drive adapters for a member here and - long story, short - ended with with two extra hubs that have a slightly different pattern/size. They fit perfectly on the motor shaft, have been liberated from the PTO discs already, and drilled for 7/16" pins and/or bolts in place of the factory rivets. You can purchase them as is, to do whatever you want with, or I can provide any type of adapter you need to go with them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love it when things line up and work together. I decided to build Scratch, moving the Inhaler's unessential parts to it, and giving my self a clean slate with the Inhaler's parts. This week I finally got my graphics pad (that had been on back order since March 14th). Perfect tool to initiate the clean-slate process! It's very natural for me, so it shouldn't take too long to get acclimated and have some sketches and renderings to share.

I'm starting with the interior. The goal for everything is to follow my "elegant, minimalistic, spohistification" theme, and also appear to be antique. There won't be many parts inside, so I can put a lot of effort into each one. So far, there will be a steering wheel, two pedals, and an instrument/control pod that spans the dash (tapering towards the doors). I want that to flow around and back onto the doors, so I can incorporate the door handles into it. The rest of the interior will be about surface shape and detail, and should all blend together and almost disappear, to highlight the "pretty" parts.

Edit = I forgot the seats! There will also be two bomber seats inside. I was going to do the bare aluminum thing, but a tight leather skin may eventually be in order. I would want it wrapped super tight around the back and sides, probably with a little stitchwork; and a thin leather pad on the seat area, with stitching and/or embossing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Any opinions on this controller? I dont plan to purchase any time soon, but would like to know what you guys think in case I wake up in the middle of the night with the urge to spend some money.  He has eight of them, and they don't seem to be going anywhere, so...

What I am thinking about is a real SepEx controller to get the Inhaler moving (at low power/low speeds) until I am ready to start building for performance. This basically means being able to drive it at shows and events, instead of pushing it everywhere, and eventually being able to go around the block, up the street, etc. As I get closer to being able to make it move, I just think I would feel better with a Sepex controller than the rheostat on the field, with a series controller.

The ad says it's a factory refurb. Are there a lot of quality/recall issues with Curtis controllers? It's 48v/500amp. I know that's not very much, but all I have currently is 48v/300amp, and I don't plan on much more than 25mph any time soon. I have a lot of chassis work to do before I put any real driving time, or real torque, in.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Any opinions on this controller? I dont plan to purchase any time soon, but would like to know what you guys think in case I wake up in the middle of the night with the urge to spend some money.  He has eight of them, and they don't seem to be going anywhere, so...
> 
> What I am thinking about is a real SepEx controller to get the Inhaler moving (at low power/low speeds) until I am ready to start building for performance. This basically means being able to drive it at shows and events, instead of pushing it everywhere, and eventually being able to go around the block, up the street, etc. As I get closer to being able to make it move, I just think I would feel better with a Sepex controller than the rheostat on the field, with a series controller.
> 
> The ad says it's a factory refurb. Are there a lot of quality/recall issues with Curtis controllers? It's 48v/500amp. I know that's not very much, but all I have currently is 48v/300amp, and I don't plan on much more than 25mph any time soon. I have a lot of chassis work to do before I put any real driving time, or real torque, in.



Hey Tod!

It not a bad controller at all, I have install 5 of those controller on 5 forklift in 2 months. I have a forklift with that kind of controller for over 2 years without a single problem. Remember one thing, you need a calibrator to calibrate the controller and need to know how to calibrate it properly otherwise you will up burning the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback Albano. The programming issue has been a thorn in my side since I purchased this motor. I thought I was purchasing a series wound motor, and didn't realize it was SepEx until a while after I had it. There was a thread here a while ago in which a member tested the field (he has the same motor). I tried to just purchase a new Kelly and see if they could use his spreadsheet info to setup a controller, but the rep I talked to (via email) said it was not the right info. He insisted that their controller could be easily programmed for my motor, by me, but I am skeptical of anything people say when I am holding money they want in their bank account . I felt like he was saying whatever he could to secure the deal.

I just decided to do a search on Ebay for "SepEx Controller" and that controller was the best find. At less than half the price of the Kelly I was looking at (also half the potential - the Kelly was 120v/600amp) it looks attractive - if I can get past the programming issue.

Ho-hum, more research...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems as if that controller money would be better spent towards a rewind. It really looks as if that's where you're going to end up anyway, why waste time and money on another lame controller? You can putt around with the controller you have. Try lighting a fire under Jim, or if he can't do it ask him for the name of someone else who can.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Seems as if that controller money would be better spent towards a rewind. It really looks as if that's where you're going to end up anyway, why waste time and money on another lame controller? You can putt around with the controller you have. Try lighting a fire under Jim, or if he can't do it ask him for the name of someone else who can.


I understand your point but my motor rewind is down the road a bit. I'm not just having them wound like a factory forklift series motor would be. I will be paying for a vehicle-specific design for the rewind to see what kind of performance is possible; and then paying someone else to have them wound accordingly. As I have stated before, I have nothing against Jim (I actually think he's awesome) but I'm not lighting fires under anyone. If the person doesn't share my enthusiasm from the first encounter I'm moving on. I will pay whatever they ask for good work, but I won't try to convince them to do it. Been there before...

The only wasted money is money that doesn't produce results. If I spend five hundred on a controller that allows me to gain experience and knowledge with SepEx and regen, and develop the information I need to get the most out of my vehicle, it was worth every penny. I have some theories about performance EVs that I believe will produce awesome results, but it's all from research and on paper. I need some up close and personal experience to sort out a few things.

One thing is I have an 11" motor in a vehicle that will weigh around half what White Zombie does. I also have purpose-built suspension for transferring the torque to the pavement, really low CG, and a low polar moment. Before I do the whole custom series wound thing I want to see how it reacts to the torque of the SepEx. There actually is a point where more torque is a waste, and I have no idea where that is for my vehicle yet. If it were an ICE setup I would have a good idea, but even 100-200 ft.lbs. of instantaneous torque is worth noting on a vehicle this light. I liken custom wound coils to a custom ground camshaft. The camshaft grinder needs a lot of vehicle specific information to even develop a plan for the regrind.

I've actually been thinking about buying the Kelly 120v/600amp controller. I just decided to search Ebay to see what was available used. I liked the price of the Curtis and figured it might be worth a shot for a while. I've kicked around the idea of purchasing another one of these motors since I bought this one. I would have a complete SepEx setup and complete series race-built setup. When I burn up the race motor, I can simply swap them out and keep on truckin (pun intended ) until the damage has been fixed. The point of that is to keep my marketing and racing needs from colliding.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With an EV I think the vehicle specific performance tweaking takes place in the controller, not the motor. You build the motor to take as much abuse as you can, then you fine tune how that abuse is applied to the motor through the controller. The "camshaft" is really the controller in an EV, and much more easily adapted to different applications.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> With an EV I think the vehicle specific performance tweaking takes place in the controller, not the motor. You build the motor to take as much abuse as you can, then you fine tune how that abuse is applied to the motor through the controller. The "camshaft" is really the controller in an EV, and much more easily adapted to different applications.


My understanding is the opposite. The controller is the EFI system. It'll feed as much fuel (v/amps) as the motor asks for/can take. I compare the coils to the camshaft because they are both hard parts that ultimately allow the energy to flow into and through the powerplant. Changing the type of windings, the number of turns, etc, can move the torque band up or down, determine the rpm, etc. That is the same as grinding a camshaft. The engineer/machinist who's doing my CNC work has a friend who races races RC cars. He winds his own coils and actually explained exactly how he rewinds his coils to pick up x-amount of rpms. Yes, I have my eye on him for rewinding my coils.  When I know what wire I need, I am tempted to purchase a spool of it and let him learn to wind big motors - by trial and error. I haven't mentioned it to him because he's a right now person, and I'm still window shopping. If I pulled my coils tonight he would be winding tonight, and would want me to slam 2K amps of current through them ASAP and see if they worked.

Electric racing is on the fringe, but needs to make a mental leap forward. Everyone is running basically one of a couple proven setups, in a variety vehicles. ICE used to do that, about fifty years ago. Don't get me wrong, I think electric motors are light-years beyond internal combustion! How they're being applied to performance applications is fresh out of the forklift caves though. The available controllers are awesome but they're being hooked up to flatheads - not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Hmmm, I've been trying to make some decisions all week and this discussion just helped me figure out the answer! I wish I could say more, but then I'd have to kill ya!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes I see how you can look at it that way. I guess I would start at the battery pack and work from there. You see what amperage and voltage you are going to configure your pack to get the most power and still preserve battery life, have the motor built to work with it, and use the controller and gearing to move things around in respect to how that power gets to the ground.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes I see how you can look at it that way. I guess I would start at the battery pack and work from there. You see what amperage and voltage you are going to configure your pack to get the most power and still preserve battery life, have the motor built to work with it, and use the controller and gearing to move things around in respect to how that power gets to the ground.


Now you're talking!  It's really similar to ICE applications. The battery pack is the fuel/air mixture. Enery stored in chemical form. You decide what fuel you're running (pump gas, race gas, nitro, alcohol, naturally-aspirated, blown, nitrous, etc.) and build an engine to suit. Then you fine-tune to extract and ulitize maximum power. Same game.

My possible plans for running SepEx are basically research-oriented. I have some blanks to fill in on the characteristics of an electric motor driven race car, before I can build the motor properly. The hard parts of an engine are also chosen according to the vehicle it's going in, as well as the fuel it's intended to burn (e.g. short-stroke, high-revving for lightweight sporty vehicles - Ferrari; long-stroke, stump puller for heavy work vehicles - diesel-powered dually). The same is true for an electric motor. That's why there is a range of forklift motors to choose from. I want to build for what I plan to do with it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you considered putting a small series DC motor in with a cheap controller on some fabricated mounts just to get motion?

It would allow a small investment to get the chassis rolling to shake down the mechanical aspects of the build and to see how the chassis will perform with various loads and battery weights and locations. You can then load it to mimic your design expectations and maybe get close to the power and performance without needing any range.

That would give you some data on what you need the proper motor to do and the dynamic parameters it has to do it with.

Once you have that you may be in a better position to determine what you motor needs to be and how it needs to be wound and controlled.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Have you considered putting a small series DC motor in with a cheap controller on some fabricated mounts just to get motion?
> 
> It would allow a small investment to get the chassis rolling to shake down the mechanical aspects of the build and to see how the chassis will perform with various loads and battery weights and locations. You can then load it to mimic your design expectations and maybe get close to the power and performance without needing any range.
> 
> ...


We think so much alike.  Yes, I have considered this off and on over the past year or so. Now hat I have Scratch's motor sitting here on my office floor, that is even more tempting. The Inhaler probably weighs less than 500lbs, without the motor, so I am sure it would be able to move it around. The 6.7" GE weighs about 50lbs. I also have the Alltrax controller. Sounds like a no-brainer, huh?

Making it move with the 11" motor isn't the problem. I can hook the same controller up to it with some batteries and accomplish that. I can fabricate mounts for it almost as easily as I can the little motor - maybe faster since the mouting pattern is already digitized. Any time I have a bright idea, I weigh it against my actual needs and goals.

*Number one need/number one goal* is make the truck look like an actual vehicle ASAP. Even if it doesn't move under its own power I need to use it as an exhibit item in booths this summer. That means I need the big GE in place, and all the parts I have bolted down around it. I really need my motor mounts because they are critical to the vehicle's design, and design is what I do. I'm scheduled to go to the machine shop today for other business, and I will see what's going on with the programming. I have a back-up plan to have that motor mounted next month regardless of what happens with the CNC project.

*Number two goal* is to start collecting more data for building the entire vehicle. As tempting as it is to slap the small motor in and go on a parking lot cruise next week, I need the big motor to generate anything meaningful. At the same voltage, it is going to have significantly more torque. To replicate the actual setup for doing corner weights, suspension planning and testing, etc, I would have to fool around with some kind of ballast to replicate the conditions and dynamics of the bigger motor.

If chips aren't flying from the 3" billet in a couple weeks I may epoxy a .250" aluminum plate between layers of wood and have a temporary mount cut that has the basic aesthetic value of the real thing, and enough strength to handle 48 volts/500 amps. The community shop where I did the last round of fabrication work on the chassis has a ShopBot CNC wood router, and a 3-axis (G-code only or now) Bridgeport mill. They also have a foundry that can do up to 80lbs of aluminum, so making parts isn't really a problem.

All this is nothing against the engineer/machinist. The guy has a full-time job, plus regular customers at his shop, and I didn't exactly ask him to drill a couple holes for me! The progress on the Inhaler isn't on hold because I can't get something done. I'm trying to push the limits and set the direction for something really special to happen.

As for buying a SepEx controller that will eventually be tossed aside or sold on Ebay, I don't think that's a big deal. I could waste that same $500 bucks on food and entertainment pretty easily. I paid over twenty bucks for a burger and fries, then some "upscale" chocolate, last nite. At least with the controller I'd have something to show for it. The (5 Guys) burger and fries were awesome, by the way, but the Godiva chocolate didn't taste like ten bucks to me! It wasn't bad, but was a little waxy for how much it cost. I could have spent a couple bucks on a Hershey's Special Dark bar, and put the other eight towards that controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That gives me an even better idea that plays off of my AC/DC regen theme! Use a smaller motor mounted to your blower and drive your main motor from the front shaft  Don't even wire up the big motor until you are ready, just use it as a driveshaft.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That gives me an even better idea that plays off of my AC/DC regen theme! Use a smaller motor mounted to your blower and drive your main motor from the front shaft  Don't even wire up the big motor until you are ready, just use it as a driveshaft.


LOL! I am going to sit the little GE on the big one later today and take a pic - just for you!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

5 Guys is a ripoff, I went there once and won't buy into the hype again. A decent burger but 20 minutes and $14 for a burger, fries and a soda? Sorry, off topic


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> LOL! I am going to sit the little GE on the big one later today and take a pic - just for you!


Thanks, I'm obsessed with a stacked motor setup


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> 5 Guys is a ripoff, I went there once and won't buy into the hype again. A decent burger but 20 minutes and $14 for a burger, fries and a soda? Sorry, off topic


Have to disagree with you there buddy. It's real, fresh, beef pressed into a patty and cooked with a real potato sliced up and deep-fried. I'm in love with 5 Guys!  You'd rather wait 30 seconds for a piece of retired race horse meat, and potato by-products in the shape of fries?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> *Number one need/number one goal* is make the truck look like an actual vehicle ASAP. Even if it doesn't move under its own power I need to use it as an exhibit item in booths this summer. That means I need the big GE in place, and all the parts I have bolted down around it. I really need my motor mounts because they are critical to the vehicle's design, and design is what I do. I'm scheduled to go to the machine shop today for other business, and I will see what's going on with the programming. I have a back-up plan to have that motor mounted next month regardless of what happens with the CNC project.


Maybe having it move on video will help with the static stand even if the proper motor isn't connected up yet.

I like the idea of the stacked motor driving through the blower.


I don't know who these 5 guys are but I am getting hungry!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Maybe having it move on video will help with the static stand even if the proper motor isn't connected up yet...


I had to read that like five times before I undertsood what you meant! I actually like that idea - after I figured out what the static stand was.  I can handle that with the series controller and rheostat on the field of the big motor, as soon as it's mounted. The video could grow with the project and have fabrication, CNC, casting, driving, etc. Nice.



Woodsmith said:


> ...I don't know who these 5 guys are but I am getting hungry!


I had a cheeseburger (which means double cheeseburger at 5 Guys) with grilled mushrooms and onions, so good... The fries are cooked in peanut oil.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Gearing up to do incredible things. I've been updating and upgrading my equipment and software over the past few months. I just installed my new 3D program (Pro/E). The engineer/machinist uses it, and after seeing it in action I'll be able to do awesome stuff, after I learn my way around in it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Gearing up to do incredible things. I've been updating and upgrading my equipment and software over the past few months. I just installed my new 3D program (Pro/E). The engineer/machinist uses it, and after seeing it in action I'll be able to do awesome stuff, after I learn my way around in it.


Contrasts really, I just buy pencils!

I do have an old version of AutoCad, R14, but it won't run on anything later then WinXP. I also have an even older version, R9, that is on about two dozen 3 1/2" floppy discs!


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm at work, today,,,, and reading this during break. Now, all I can think about is HAMBURGERS!!!! WE have something called the Fisko Freeze, locally. Real beef,, real potatoes,,, real grease,,, I can feel it building around my heart already,,,,, can't wait..

Back to topic?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Thanks, I'm obsessed with a stacked motor setup


Anything to help a friend. 








Funny thing is, I found this motor while searching for a motor to drive the blower!  It was too big for the job, but I couldn't resist it. I kept looking to see if it was still there, called for measurements, and finally gave in to temptation and clicked the button! 



Woodsmith said:


> Contrasts really, I just buy pencils!
> 
> I do have an old version of AutoCad, R14, but it won't run on anything later then WinXP. I also have an even older version, R9, that is on about two dozen 3 1/2" floppy discs!


Lol, I haven't seen a floppy in ages! I am still running XP, because I hate Vista. I'm patiently observing 7.



grayballs said:


> I'm at work, today,,,, and reading this during break. Now, all I can think about is HAMBURGERS!!!! WE have something called the Fisko Freeze, locally. Real beef,, real potatoes,,, real grease,,, I can feel it building around my heart already,,,,, can't wait...


Lol, my heart is nice and toasty from yesterday's insulation! I normally go out to eat once or twice a week, and usually try to pick something healthy, but every once in a while you have to just enjoy. Everything in moderation.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Nice setup Todd.
Are you sure of the air flow direction for your motor?
I was wrong on my motor.
My kostov is sucking air at the drive end and blowing out on the brush side. Must be a fan design thing. Will you keep the original fan?
I'm sorry if this topic was already discussed.
I have sort of dejavu about this blower-cooler thing's.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Lol, I haven't seen a floppy in ages! I am still running XP, because I hate Vista. I'm patiently observing 7.


I still have some 5 1/4" floppies that are actually floppy.

That motor set up looks the business. I am begining to see how the proper set up with manifold and trumpets would look.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

zwmaster said:


> Nice setup Todd.
> Are you sure of the air flow direction for your motor?
> I was wrong on my motor.
> My kostov is sucking air at the drive end and blowing out on the brush side. Must be a fan design thing. Will you keep the original fan?
> ...


You do realize that last picture is a joke to amuse JRP3, right? 

Nope I am not sure, but pretty confident that this is the right direction because of the size and design of the comm end ports versus the drive end's. I may get rid of the internal fan eventually, since my blower will be running direct, via serpentine belt, off the main motor. I plan to supplement with an electric blower to cool when the motor isn't turning - but not driven by the motor stacked on it in the picture. That's my e-bike motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I still have some 5 1/4" floppies that are actually floppy.
> 
> That motor set up looks the business. I am begining to see how the proper set up with manifold and trumpets would look.


 

How would the phrase "looks the business" translate into US style English?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> How would the phrase "looks the business" translate into US style English?


Mutt's nuts maybe?

Looks right, looks correct, looks like it does the job.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

grayballs said:


> WE have something called the Fisko Freeze, locally. Real beef,, real potatoes,,, real grease,,, I can feel it building around my heart already,,,,,
> 
> Back to topic?


Sorry to break the train of thought, but....

Grayballs, I agree with you about Frisko Freeze. Great stuff. Next time you find yourself in Seattle, try Dick's Hamburgers up on NE 45th, west of the freeway. My wife and I make a special trip up there every time we're in Tacoma. Mmmmmmmm!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Mutt's nuts maybe?
> 
> Looks right, looks correct, looks like it does the job.


That was the obvious assumption, but I wasn't 100% sure. 

Mutt's nuts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You do realize that last picture is a joke to amuse JRP3, right?


We are amused


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

My Kostov sucks in air on the brush end, and blows it out the drive end... But mine is the older design.

Five Guys is awesome!

I have a Curtis Sepex, but I have never hooked it up. I decided it would not be enough power, but I'm still tinkering with the idea of using it to power the field, and a beefier controller on the armature.


zwmaster said:


> Nice setup Todd.
> Are you sure of the air flow direction for your motor?
> I was wrong on my motor.
> My kostov is sucking air at the drive end and blowing out on the brush side. Must be a fan design thing. Will you keep the original fan?
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Interesting development this morning - I quit my job!  I have been struggling to balance a full-time job, full-time school, and my own business for months now. That routine was beginning to take its toll on me, and I used process of elimination to figure out which one was the worst offender. It was supposed to be a low-stress job to pay the bills so I could concentrate on school and revising my own business. I was coming home every evening so stressed out and exhausted I couldn't do anything. My grades in school have suffered, and the business has been running in place, at best.

I don't know what this means for the Inhaler and Scratch projects yet, as I haven't really figured out what I am going to do. I saved enough to cover myself for a little bit, and took the plunge.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I hope it goes well without the day job. Good luck.

I did something like that a few years ago. I made a sudden decision at my desk one Friday and booked all my leave, handed my notice in to my manager and then cleared my desk and walked out. It was a nicely paid desk job over seeing the regeneration process of housing for a local authority.

It was strange, no leaving do, no notice as I went straight away and I never found out if anyone missed me or if anyone was left running around like a headless chicken.

Never been back to 'proper work' since. Teaching doesn't count as it is part time and fun.
Money is tight but zero stress so no need for comfort buying or expensive destressing holidays.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Woody. 

I came at this whole thing from the opposite end of the spectrum. This is the first conventional job I have ever held longer than two weeks! I have always worked for myself. In spite of that, I had no problem with having a regular job - just issues with the particular job I had.

I was going to do the two week notice thing, but that boss has made and broken so many promises that I didn't see the point. She asked, and I told her it's hard to give respect when none is received in return. I have been trying to figure out _when_ for weeks now, and this morning was just it.

I like to enjoy life when I have the opportunity, but am not materialistic. I could grab my dog, a couple changes of clothes, and leave everything I have behind right now if I saw something I wanted more. I still haven't retrieved half of my stuff from when I moved here, almost a year-and-a-half ago! It took months to get myself psyched up enough to go get this chassis last year. I like to leave the past behind me when I move on.

As for the Inhaler: The plan right now is still to get the motor mounted, body parts mounted, drivehsaft in, batteries and wiring done, and make it move. The Goodguys show is the second weekend of July and I would really like to have it there. If I have a booth it doesn't have to be operational, but it has to look decent and have some of my CAD parts on it. I'll have the time to work on it, if I don't end up spending the project budget on bills. We'll see...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There is a chance that aluminum chips will fly this coming weekend! I went to drop off some parts today and asked when he thought the programming might be done. He said possibly Saturday. Keep everything you can cross crossed! 

I was also talking about having the blower housings cast because of how much aluminum would end up in chips cutting them. The idea didn't seem to bother him, as he made a joking reference about how it's basically the same thing as the 50lb billet we're about reduce to a 15lb part soon. I have to make a decision soon so I can figure out whether I am modeling the housing in 3D or plastic and clay.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Maybe a odd question that also has very likely already been discussed but this thread is quite long so it's hard to read everything.

For what purpose are you building this e-Rod? I don't see a record braking performance setup. For show & shine?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Maybe a odd question that also has very likely already been discussed but this thread is quite long so it's hard to read everything.
> 
> For what purpose are you building this e-Rod? I don't see a record braking performance setup. For show & shine?


Hey Cro! It's not odd at all, and the purpose of the Inhaler has been discussed countless times in this thread - but you would definitely have to have quite a bit of free time to find the answer!  It has a dual purpose.

*One*
It is a marketing tool, which is basically "show & shine" but on a more professional level. It will be _pretty_ someday, but being effective at selling my design work is more important.

*Two*
It is a race car. The fact that you don't see a record-breaking performance setup means I am doing my job as a designer. Racing, for the Inhaler, is a means of validating the design. Proof is in the pudding, so to speak. My background is in drag racing, I but decided to make autocrossing a bigger priority with this project. It's design features a short (90") wheelbase, ultra-low CG, and low polar moment - it should be like running a big go-kart through the cones. 90" is the minimum legal wheelbase for four-wheeled vehicles on sanctioned NHRA tracks in this country. I plan to run the quarter-mile as well. 911's have run low 9s and I think even high 8s with a 92" wb, and a much higher CG, so it should be perform well.

If you're referring to the single motor as not being a record-breaking performance setup - I beg to disagree. White Zombie was pretty quick with the Kostov 11" motor, and actually had some other issues that were holding the car back probably more than the motor. Ultimately, Smoke Screen was a heartbeat away from the 10s with a single 13" GE. My recipe is to run a half the weight of the Datsun, I believe a third the weight of the S10, and incorporate some other ideas I have to see how much more is left in the concept.

Most important though is the marketing aspect. When "finished" the Inhaler must have the aesthetic polish and precision of a hand-built, luxury, automobile. Every piece has to look like it was supposed to be exactly where it is. In use, it must feel like a high-end sports car (Ferrari-ish, if I dare to compare ). The package must feel complete, like it was purposefully designed to do "this". Every piece must work in perfect harmony with all the others, like it was designed to be there.

^^Now you know why this thread is so long - one particular long-winded person can't shut up!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I am not burning its cells in a dead-end job, my brain is beginning to work again. Since he said we might be ready to make chips this weekend, I have been thinking about what could go wrong. What could I have missed? What would be the worst possible outcome?

The biggest disaster would be if the mounting pattern was off and it couldn't be bolted to the motor!  The problem is the mounting holes aren't just holes. The counterbores are actually contoured to highlight the bolt heads. I don't want to compromise the integrity of the design by slotting holes anyway, but in this case that would look like crap because the counterbore would be elongated - like someone stepped on it!

Of course I could always order another chunk of aluminum and start over, but time is money... I decided to do a quick paper pattern check. I created a 2D graphic from the modeling curves, had a sheet of six printed at FedEx Office (large-scale printer), and cut one out. Between translations (CAD curves, graphic image, formatting, printing) it shrunk about .0625", which is why it's not quite out to the edges of the motor, and why the bolts are not perfectly centered in the holes, but the digitized motor mount pattern appears to be spot on!








I considered doing a real DWG, or even having the other shop cut a quick wood or plastic mock-up of the motor mount section on the ShopBot, but decided that all this would be time-consuming overkill. All really needed to know was if the pattern was right. Even though it was done of the actual motor with a Faro arm, things can happen.

I've started working on a line of hot rod specific EV parts.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Now that I am not burning its cells in a dead-end job, my brain is beginning to work again.
> 
> 
> I've started working on a line of hot rod specific EV parts.



Care to elaborate?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I bow in your general direction, this is great stuff!

I'll agree you'll have a low CG, but is a Porsche 911 "much higher?" It has the battery on the floor, the springs (torsion bars) are at floor level, the motor is flat, the roof panel is small.

Another thought: Part of the 911 acceleration success is rearward weight bias. Without that, you actually need a higher CG to transfer weight to the rear wheels (the muscle car's technique). Opposite this is you want a low CG for cornering. The 911 is the best of both worlds, low CG and lots of weight on the rear wheels, but with the "compromise" that it takes a truly expert driver to be fast around corners with one due to oversteer tendencies.

What front/rear weight bias are you planning for the Inhaler? One nice thing about batteries is you could move some batteries for autocross vs. drag racing, and optimize the car for both.

I'm putting all my batteries at floor level, and estimate I'll move my weight bias forward about 2%. http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/weight .


toddshotrods said:


> ... I but decided to make autocrossing a bigger priority with this project. It's design features a short (90") wheelbase, ultra-low CG, and low polar moment - it should be like running a big go-kart through the cones. 90" is the minimum legal wheelbase for four-wheeled vehicles on sanctioned NHRA tracks in this country. I plan to run the quarter-mile as well. 911's have run low 9s and I think even high 8s with a 92" wb, and a much higher CG, so it should be perform well. ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I bow in your general direction, this is great stuff!..


Thanks! Now stand up, people are looking! 



DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I'll agree you'll have a low CG, but is a Porsche 911 "much higher?" It has the battery on the floor, the springs (torsion bars) are at floor level, the motor is flat, the roof panel is small.
> 
> Another thought: Part of the 911 acceleration success is rearward weight bias. Without that, you actually need a higher CG to transfer weight to the rear wheels (the muscle car's technique). Opposite this is you want a low CG for cornering. The 911 is the best of both worlds, low CG and lots of weight on the rear wheels, but with the "compromise" that it takes a truly expert driver to be fast around corners with one due to oversteer tendencies...


I do get that the 911 might have a low CG relative to other production sports cars but, out of necessity, there are still a lot of components up much higher. It's also a relative tall car. The roof may be small but it's steel, and a part of the chassis. That steel roof is nearly five feet off the ground, and carries a fair amount of glass. Wokring down you have more steel body, with structural integrity designed in, jambs for doors, deck, and hood, etc. The dash, seats, and interiors components, etc.

I know it doesn't sound like much, but in comparison, it is. The Inhaler will have a roll cage, but it will be moly, and other than then there just won't be much weight above the height of the motor. The motor is set as low in the frame as possible (approx. 4" off the ground). The body is 40lb of chopper gun 'glass now, and will be less in it's final carbon/foam composite form. I figure the carbon/foam roof skin should be about 15lbs.



DavidDymaxion said:


> ...What front/rear weight bias are you planning for the Inhaler?...


It should be really close to 50/50, maybe 45/55 (f/r) at most, if I'm really off. I concentrated on centralizing the mass for low polar moment more than actual bias. It seems like the neutral bias just kind of develops naturally in a front-engine/rear-drive car as you start pulling mass in towards the center. I've noticed a lot of production cars are getting closer and closer to it. Some are even ending up with a rearward bias.




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...One nice thing about batteries is you could move some batteries for autocross vs. drag racing, and optimize the car for both.
> 
> I'm putting all my batteries at floor level, and estimate I'll move my weight bias forward about 2%. http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/weight .


You been peeking in my notes?!  The design calls for A123s under the floor, and behind the seats. That's the normal, and ideal for autocross, set up. The triangulated, four-link, rear suspension will be completely adjustable, and I eventually want double-adjustable coil-overs at each corner. If I can't get enough transfer with these adjustments, I will be able to move the batteries back into the bed. That will place them much higher, obviously farther back, and in a position to have much more leverage to get the weight transfer started. Having more static weight directly over the tires at 0rpm, when the e-motor's torque hits, shouldn't hurt either. All that is for "if" the standard setup doesn't work.

Another reason I want the coils custom wound for my application is at 1200lbs, with an 11" motor, I may want to trade off a little bottom end torque for better performance elsewhere. I absolutely love a good holeshot, but don't want to have to run 30" tall wrinkle walls just to get off the line. I'm seeking a good all-around balance, but with neck-snapping acceleration.

Sometimes when I think about the time I have invested - just in design - for this project I just shake my head. I'm either completely nuts or onto something!


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Sometimes when I think about the time I have invested - just in design - for this project I just shake my head. I'm either completely nuts or onto something!


Well from what I have read from your thread I'm going for the latter 

This is an amazing project.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Care to elaborate?


First adapters, mounts, etc. All the stuff that's required to begin building an electric vehicle, but more appropriate for a hot rod. It's really more a matter of where to begin than what to do.

Later down the line, I have some really "special" parts in the works. I'd tell ya more but I'd have to kill ya! 

Right now, pretty much anything a person wants can be done on a custom basis. I wanted to run a few parts through to test the processes, shops, and suppliers. I think I have enough of the kinks out to formally swing the doors open soon.

I happen to know of a guy that will be receiving a couple parts as soon as the machine finishes chewing on them.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree with Procupine...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I agree with Procupine...


Thanks a million guys! One of the reason I like sharing my projects in forums is the momentum of the group can help keep things going when mental burnout occurs. That's happened quite a few times since this thread was started, and the DIY crew definitely helped me keep pushing.

That being said, if you two end up in a padded room, wearing jackets with funny sleeves, watching me flail about armlessly, listening to me describe my new fluxation device for EVs, don't say your weren't warned!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> ...It's design features a short (90") wheelbase, ultra-low CG, and low polar moment - it should be like running a big go-kart through the cones. 90" is the minimum legal wheelbase for four-wheeled vehicles on sanctioned NHRA tracks in this country. I plan to run the quarter-mile as well. 911's have run low 9s and I think even high 8s with a 92" wb, and a much higher CG, so it should be perform well....





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Part of the 911 acceleration success is rearward weight bias...


I was just absorbing today's posts and realized that I didn't really address my point/your point concerning this. When I referred to the 911 being able to run the numbers it does, with a higher CG, I wasn't referring to acceleration from a standing start. I was referring to the fact that the short wheelbase doesn't prevent it from being stable enough to do so. The point was more about speed than acceleration, but I used drag racing as the example (instead of top speed runs) because the job is much more complicaed when you're also attempting to accelerate as quickly as possible. Getting to 150+mph in less than ten seconds puts you on the edge.

Your points about its low CG are complementary to what I tried to communicate. That's probably why it is able to accomplish many of the performance feats it does, on such a short wheelbase, and also what I am counting on to make it possible for me to do likewise.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've still been sorting through old parts and plans to see what stays and what goes. This setup will continue on in this little mission. It was conceived specifically for this project in 2008, and is still relevant.








The whole point when I started it was to use different forms of craftsmanship, and try to make simple functions look like art forms. It's just a brake pedal, but the sweep and taper are meant to draw you eyes up to what happens when you apply the brakes. Ditto for the accelerator. Usually you don't see the business end of the pedals, but I wanted to highlight the song and dance that happens as you drive. Every piece is hand fabricated mostly with hand tools. I did use a lathe to turn the pressed-in threaded insert for the brake adjuster, and a drillpress for some of the holes, but the rest was done with a jig saw, hammers, files, etc. I have a lot of work to do to finish the assembly, but it will add a nice contrast to all the CAD/CNC stuff to show different techniques/results.

The dished plate is a safety feature. It was designed when I was running an ICE powetrain to keep anything forward of the bellhousing away from my feet and ankles should things suddenly come apart!  I don't have a transmission, and haven't seen any reports of an electric motor throwing chunks around, but the front u-joint of the driveshaft is right there. The steel safety loop will be inside the central cutout and extend to the frame rails - also forming the lower mounts for the assembly. So, even in the event of a castrophic failure of the front u-joint that left the yoke flopping around until I got it stopped, I will have .3125" of solid aluminum between it and my lower extremities. Might beat up the motor mount and body, but I should be able to literally walk away.

While on the subject, the rear mount model has a little extra clearance inside the driveshaft "port". I left room to turn and press a steel band in it to save the mount if the u-joint fails.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_*BREAKING NEWS!*_

Chips are set to fly today at 1pm! Details in the evening report.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> _*BREAKING NEWS!*_
> 
> Chips are set to fly today at 1pm! Details in the evening report.


{Munches popcorn, sips Earl Grey tea, waits patiently.}


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry, you'll have to make do with a handful of regular pics until I can check out and edit the videos. I have a paper that I have to do for school and post before 2am, and I haven't started it yet. 

Getting set up. There were a few gremlins that were threatening to ruin the day, but he got them sorted out and everything back on track.










Munchin on chips and sippin cold smoothies!










Motor mount and center hole cut.










And, that completes today's session. It comes out of the clamps and gets locked down from the center hole to start cutting the motor side surfaces next. The plan is for him to get it set up tomorrow evening, and then I meet him at the shop during his lunch break Tuesday. I will be babysitting the mill while he's at work, and capturing more video and pics. He said the next phase will take about twenty hours to complete. Today was a couple hours.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good so far!

I must add one of those machines to my Santa list.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Woody. It was an awesome experience being there and watching this thing begin the journey from CAD to reality. I live in my CAD programs so much that I forget how much fun playing with aluminum really is. It's my absolute favorite material to work with. I can't wait to do some of the cast aluminum parts.

I've considered purchasing a small, precise, tabletop CNC mill/lathe; but decided to just keep buying better software and design tools. A laser scanner and good programming software are on my list. He said my model translated pretty well in programming. My 3D design software "suite" of Rhino 3D for the artistic side, and Pro/E for the technical aspects, is going to work perfectly. I should be able to do some crazy stuff in the near future - this piece is like a roadie shouting "mic check 1 - 2" before the big concert! 

A little Photochop, just to give an idea of how serious of a crash diet this plate is about to undergo:









By the way Woody, I liked your signature line so much I followed in your footsteps!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Info for the useless trivia file found in the deep dark recesses of your brain.

If you do revisit the "in house cnc" option.....

Small cnc routers are great for wood, fine for plastics and marginal for aluminum. If a router is used the spindle may break or crack causing safety and accuracy issues. If you start looking at spending the money for a good spindle then you may want to look up TorMach for a mill.

The difference in cutting time and quality of parts was amazing. And the Tormach can run on non 3 phase.


Used both routers and the Tormach at this place
http://techshop.ws/index.html 

MJ


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It looks really slimline and sleek superimposed like that. I can see why you want it to be milled out rather then fabricated when it is like that. I can really visualise the machining that way.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Info for the useless trivia file found in the deep dark recesses of your brain...


I try not to go in there very often. It's hard to find the way back out. 




MJ Monterey said:


> ...If you do revisit the "in house cnc" option...


I'm moving farther away from that idea daily, but I do appreciate the info. The community shop I do some of my work with is very similar, on a smaller scale, to that place. They'll be cutting some foam plugs on the ShopBot for my cast parts, but I wouldn't even consider a using a router for serious aluminum work.

When I thought about a desktop mill it was for things like switch knobs, and carving foam, wax, or clay, plugs. I really meant desktop - the little ones that will fit in the back seat. The machinist showed us a little piece he cut, about the size of a quarter with serious detail, on a huge CNC and I realized there was no point. I'm better off handing them the file and working on the next design project while I wait.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It looks really slimline and sleek superimposed like that. I can see why you want it to be milled out rather then fabricated when it is like that. I can really visualise the machining that way.


Thanks, I wanted to show you guys what I have been seeing in my head to create the model. This basic design was spinning in my head before i started modeling and the 3D software helped me get it out - the mill makes it reality. Later this week or early next week, it should really start visually poping out of the billet.

The other advantage to milling, as opposed to casting, it is this thing is going to be incredibly strong. It's a glorified race part. It's whole purpose is really to control as much of the torque reaction as possible, and channel the rest safely into the chassis, so as much of it as possible can be converted to forward motion, or lateral acceleration. There will be .750 inches of solid, uninterrupted, 6061 with a very stout base, four .750 inch studs, and two .750 inch bolts, anchoring the drive end.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been mentally chewing on the plans for the battery pack since this afternoon. My ultimate pack would be 1800 A123 26650's. 18 paralleled sets of 100 series wired cells. 330 volts, and enough current to ripple the pavement!  They'd fit nicely in two packs, one on either side of the driveshaft tunnel, between the frame rails, between the belly pan and floor pans. They would roll up behind the seats no more than twelve inches. This keeps all the weight as low and evenly distributed as possible. All that for about 300lbs of battery weight! I have another 100 to get them connected, mounted, and charged.

I'll also be chasing down some leads this week to convert the motor to series. If I can get the right coils, for a reasonable price, I think there are some places in town that can help get them wrapped, baked, and everything put back together. This wouldn't be a race setup, by any means. It would just allow me to run a normal controller, and have series style torque to play with while I work on the rest of the plans. I still want custom winding, and some other tricks. I had set a proposed powertrain budget of $25K for the full race setup, but it's starting to look restrictive.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Trying to get all wound up!  I'm waiting on a call back from one place about purchasing the series coils for the GE, and just got off the phone with the other local shop that _can_ do the work. They can replace, rewind, wrap, bake, rebuild - whatever it takes. Woo-hoo!  I met the guy from this shop last year at the Goodguys show here, and misplaced the contact info he gave me. He was in the booth for a driveline company, that I believe is a "sibling" of the motor shop, and gave me the driveline shop brochure. Silly me, walked away without ever asking what the name of the motor shop was, and couldn't remember enough info to find them. I'm not expecting them to be able to do what Jim does, just a local place to get stuff working until I need wretched excess. 

The guy I talked to sounded pretty positive, like it wasn't a big deal. After the mounts are sorted out, I am going to take it to their shop and see what they can do, for how much...

A scratch-built vehicle is a pretty serious undertaking. Mix in the requirements to serve as an upscale marketing tool - AND - thoroughbred racer, and it gets downright exhausting sometimes. There are sooo many components and systems that have to all work together. Complicating things more is the fact that I don't have my own dedicated crew yet. I have a lot of helpful resources but, because they all have other priorities, I have to also design and plan around their agendas. Phew! 

It's been an incredible journey so far though. I would definitley do it all over again. The high points are so good that it propels me forward through the hurdles. Seeing it actually sitting in the garage, sitting in it, mocking up parts - those little things illuminate the accomplishments I've made and get the adrenaline flowing.

I just came in from doing all that, if you're wondering what's got me so hopped up!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I noticed something today. I visited a fellow member's shop the other day and he had both series and SepEx 11" GE motors there. One of the first things I noticed about them was the series motor had a much larger diameter armature. Seeing it up close helped me understand better why Jim stacked two sets of coils to convert the SepEx motor he converted.

Well, today I was out in the garage looking at all my parts, thinking through everything, and I noticed that my SepEx motor has the bigger armature and smaller field coils. My field windings appear to be the size of the series motor, which would means one set should do the trick and the conversion should be much simpler.








Here's hoping... I really just want to get this over with now, and have the simplicity and vareity of options available with series wound motors.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hope you buttered up your popping corn!

Getting setup.









Getting down to business.

































Getting the idea? The diet worked and my overweight plate is becoming a lean mean fighting machine.









Re-zero and time to start start shaping up.









This ball nose roughing mill will be doing the work.









...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

...The shape is finally starting to show! It's like working out for months and then finally starting to see muscles form when you flex.









Can you see the mounting foot in the ripples?









All I could do is smile!  This has been a long time coming. Not just this mount (which has been a lengthy process itself) but finally reaching the point where I have the connections to do extraordinary things. This is the tip of the iceberg.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That is beautiful work! Going with one big chunk of Aluminum like that makes for an especially good looking piece, plus that's more accurate than fitting separate pieces together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> That is beautiful work! Going with one big chunk of Aluminum like that makes for an especially good looking piece, plus that's more accurate than fitting separate pieces together.


Thanks David. One piece can be pretty accurate, _*if*_ it's machined properly. There's still tons of room to screw it up.  Usually a single piece has to go through multiple setups to complete the machining. Each one of those is an opportunity to miss the boat. Fortunately, Eric (the engineer/machinist) is pretty anal about it. He zeroed the mount again after the rough cut because he was pushing the CNC a little more aggressively through the profile cut. That's just the engineer in him, because this piece doesn't have any critical alignment concerns (direct drive).

I should give the machines a little credit too. These bigger mills allow one to achieve and maintain high levels of accuracy much easier. Things just don't move as much because of the machine's mass and, when they do, having digital readouts and controls that move the machine in very precise increments brings them back in line easily. I love watching him zero things on this mill because he's turning a little 3-inch wheel and moving the table and head through their axes like they weigh an ounce! It's an older machine, which makes it a bit slower than the newer ones, but it has that perfect balance of high-tech and no-so-old school.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Errr, you missed a bit!


Only kidding.

It is looking really good seeing the mount slowly emerge from the block.
How many hours in is it so far? I am guessing the time consuming part will be the very slow finishing cuts to get the final shape smooth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

miththu said:


> great story. very informative and educative.


Thanks mith! Surely, you don't mean you read this entire thread!  



Woodsmith said:


> Errr, you missed a bit!...


Shhh! I was saving that for a late-night snack! 



Woodsmith said:


> ...It is looking really good seeing the mount slowly emerge from the block.
> How many hours in is it so far? I am guessing the time consuming part will be the very slow finishing cuts to get the final shape smooth.


I can't stop smiling.  I think I'm going to get a box of cigars to pass out when the final cut is made! 

Surprisingly, just five hours of machine time so far! Maybe six, counting setups. You're correct though, the clock seem will seem to take a minute between each tick, and an hour for a tock, when the real surfacing work starts. I really enjoyed watching the roughing mill, that did the profile cut, chew through .750-inches of aluminum at a time! It looked like someone was running their finger through it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to post these  :

















I took them just for you guys!  My guess is over half of the original billet plate is down there.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I forgot to post these  :
> 
> 
> 
> I took them just for you guys!  My guess is over half of the original billet plate is down there.



I'm enjoying the heck out of watching this thing come together. Nice work! Let the chips fly!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> I'm enjoying the heck out of watching this thing come together. Nice work! Let the chips fly!


Thanks. Maybe we can meet in the middle at a show someday, it would be cool to see two crazy EVs parked together. We need to get Woody to fly that tractor across the pond to hang out with us too! 

I'm not sure if we'll resume cutting this week. From what I understand, the company he works for is helping with the oil spill, and he had to fly to the Gulf Sunday. Depends on how busy/far behind he is when he gets back I guess.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks. Maybe we can meet in the middle at a show someday, it would be cool to see two crazy EVs parked together. We need to get Woody to fly that tractor across the pond to hang out with us too!


I wonder what the shipping would cost?



toddshotrods said:


> I'm not sure if we'll resume cutting this week. From what I understand, the company he works for is helping with the oil spill, and he had to fly to the Gulf Sunday. Depends on how busy/far behind he is when he gets back I guess.


Damned oil!

Now if it was electricity that was leaking into the ocean......


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> Damned oil!
> Now if it was electricity that was leaking into the ocean......


Fish Fry!!! Bring your utensils and beer!

On another note. Looks like a lot more great work from toddshotrods! I am on the edge of my seat to see the finished product!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

procupine14 said:


> Fish Fry!!! Bring your utensils and beer!...


LOL! You guys are crazy! 



procupine14 said:


> ...On another note. Looks like a lot more great work from toddshotrods! I am on the edge of my seat to see the finished product!


Thanks pro. 

In the meantime, while I wait, I decided to finish the front mount model. I had been stubbornly determined to incorporate two hand-cut aluminum mounting plates from the 350 Chevy engine that was in the Inhaler before. They were going to be TIG welded to the front motor mount and extend forward to the front crossmember. I was waiting on the rear mount to position the motor and see where everything lined up, so I could model sockets on the front mount to fit the plates into. Make sense? 

When I started Scratch, and moved all the old parts and creative overflow to it, it gave me a clean slate and fresh perspective to look at the Inhaler's design. (If this feels like deja vu, it's because I said that before... ) One of the things I realized is that I didn't want those plates anywhere near my motor! That gave me the freedom to design what I wanted for the front mount. I decided to keep it simple and just try to make it match the rear mount.








The rear plate carries all the stress, so this mount doesn't have to be as beefy. It's main purpose is just to positively locate the front of the motor, and balance the aesthetic. The rear mount is so stout, it could do the job by itself, with nothing more than a pad for the front of the motor to rest on. This one is still solid, being the same .250" minimum thickness as an ICE "motor plate". The two together, bolted solidly to the chassis, should be more than up to the task. I actually used a piece of the rear mounting foot for the ears that extends out to the mounting bosses. I just had to thin it down (front-to-back), and crop it down to the right size.

We'll see if Eric is okay with it when he gets back. Everything is pretty straight forward, except for the fact that the angle of the mounting bosses will probably require two additional setups on the 4-axis mill. The original picture I had in my head was only feasible on a 5-axis. It could be done on a 3-axis mill, but too much time would be spent doing crazy setups for 5 minutes of machining.

One last thing: You can get a better idea of the height of the firewall, from this rendering. I mentioned that the big forced-air system blower would work because it would effectively bring the motor up to the height of the firewall. It will fill this space nicely, while not blocking the view of the motor at all.

Whadda ya think?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Very nice looking, as to be expected.

One thing though. You say that the mounting points don't need to be as strong as they are not load bearing. 
Have you considered chassis flex?

The front end of the chassis will flex and if the only thing that bridges it is the motor then it will stress the front mounting points.

Maybe a tubular cross member to match the rear one and a single central mount would allow chassis flex without transmitting as much stress to the motor mount.
A ball joint mount there would be good.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Very nice looking, as to be expected.
> 
> One thing though. You say that the mounting points don't need to be as strong as they are not load bearing.
> Have you considered chassis flex?
> ...


I'm almost obsessed with eliminating chassis flex! You're right on target with the tubular crossmember. The motor will be bolted to little mounting pads extending off of it. About three inches in front of that crossmember is the front suspension crossmember. That is going to be a very sophisticated, but fairly lightweight, structure when I finish it. It's going to have steel structural members welded inside (it's a U-channel now), to stiffen it - especially torsionally. I am going to consult with Eric and/or Alex (the engineer that runs the other shop) on the design, model it, and hopefully have it analyzed.

Connecting the upper control arm mounting points, just over the front crossmember, and an inch or so forward of the motor's front crossmember, will be the bowed brace that masquerades as a light bar. That brace will be tied directly back into the front hoops of the roll cage, just under the dash. The front hoops hit the main frame rails just behind the three-inch crossmember that the rear motor mount bolts to. That one will have a really serious struture welded in to handle the torque. I'm pretty sure i described that one in detail before, so I'll spare you the babbling. 

That's all in a touch over two feet of chassis length! If the chassis still flexes with that setup something's wrong with the world.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You're right on target with the tubular crossmember. The motor will be bolted to little mounting pads extending off of it.


Ahhh, I thought the two little mounts were onto the chassis rails.



toddshotrods said:


> If the chassis still flexes with that setup something's wrong with the world.


There is always duck tape and body filler. Some folks use it to repair car frames so there must be something going for it!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

While the mounting wings are probably strong enough they just don't look right to me. They are just too dainty and make you think that motor must not be that powerful. Where's the beef


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> While the mounting wings are probably strong enough they just don't look right to me. They are just too dainty and make you think that motor must not be that powerful. Where's the beef


Actually, you just convinced me to change something. Eric and I were commenting about how you get used to looking at CAD models on screen and don't realize how much smaller they will be in real life. That was around the time the CNC was making the profile cut on the rear mount. In real life it is probably not going to look so big-n-bad either. It's actually pretty slim and trim looking because all the meat that makes it strong is hidden inside. Changes coming...

I started modeling the forced-air blower this evening. Funny thing is I got so caught up in modeling it I forgot why I started it! My original intention wasn't to do a CAD model and whittle more 3-inch plates down to nothing - I needed a slight resemblance of it in the motor mock-up model. I just can't remember why!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As I said, I'm not too concerned about stress on the front mount because of how stout the rear mount is, and the amount of chassis reinforcement around the motor compartment. What I did realize from JRP3 and Woodsmith's posts is that I needed to build in more abuse tolerance for installing and removing the motor. Race vehicle powertrains go in and come out much more than regular transportation, and no matter how much you try to be careful, things happen. Accidentally turn the valve on the cherry picker too fast, or not have it high enough to clear the bench, and 200+ pounds of motor could easily "adjust" the position of the mounting bosses in the previous version!  Aluminum is pretty tough, and there was enough material in the ear that it would take a serious blow to do more than tweak it but I don't want to have to hammer it back in place just to get the motor back in the truck, so...








I beefed the ears up so I could pull the bosses inside them, and bring the bolts up through the crossmember. Now if the valve opens too fast it'll just plop down on the mounting pads, I'll mumble a few obscenities, and start bolting it down. 

I plan to pick up the shape of the "foot" in the mounting pad to make it all blend together. I liked the aesthetic of the previous version better, but may be able to reclaim the _magic_ in the whole assembly later.

Now, back to my forced-air model.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I remembered why I started the blower model. I want to turn the forced-air unit 90-degrees, and use a right angle gear drive in the housing to send a shaft forward to be driven by the motor.









I haven't looked for used gears yet, but checked on new ones just to be sure it's feasible. I can buy a brand new, spiral-cut, hardened steel, gear set for a couple hundred bucks.

I am definitely going to model the whole assembly, including the blower housing. Even if it is ultimately cast, I would rather have investment castings from CNC-cut wax or foam plugs, than sand castings from modified plastic housings. Keeps me in my element - behind this computer screen.  I have also already made some significant modifications to the design, just doing a quick mock-up housing for the powertrain mock-up model. The plastic housings were a great investment though because I have measurements to start from.

If Eric is up for it, I would actually like to machine this one!  It would just be so awesome to see being cut, and then the final billet/fabricated assembly perched on my motor with the mounts on either end...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I haven't looked for used gears yet, but checked on new ones just to be sure it's feasible. I can buy a brand new, spiral-cut, hardened steel, gear set for a couple hundred bucks.


Gears from a big angle grinder?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

After a moment of inspiration........

Dead cam and a distributor drive gear?

Dead cams and distributors are tucked in corners all over the place, most likely for free.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> After a moment of inspiration........
> 
> Dead cam and a distributor drive gear?
> 
> Dead cams and distributors are tucked in corners all over the place, most likely for free.....


Nice thinking! I will definitely look into this. What I like most about it is there are aftermarket parts available that should be up to the task. I could turn a camshaft down into the unit's driveshaft, and key the end for a pulley.

Big thumbs-ups to you MJ (we need a thumbs-up emoticon)!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Additional thought...

Small four or six cylinder car with the distributor centered in the block may give you a correct length with drive end in place.

All you would need is to cut off the unused end and turn/grind down the remaining lobes.

Than again Ford puts the distributor up near the cam gears......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Additional thought...
> 
> Small four or six cylinder car with the distributor centered in the block may give you a correct length with drive end in place.
> 
> ...


If this works I plan to use a small block Chevy V8 cam. I can start with any old cam, and if and when I start turning more rpm I can always upgrade to a race-quality cam that is meant to turn faster. There are also aftermarket steel distributor gears available for them. I don't mind cutting, turning, and keying the cam to get it right.

The thing is to determine whether the gears are strong enough to turn the blower. Considering the fact that it produces high speed air and not high pressure, this may work.

It would be fun to explain to ICE guys that a modified camshaft turns the blower that cools the motor with fresh air!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Will you be including the front support for the blower drive in your front motor mount?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Will you be including the front support for the blower drive in your front motor mount?


If it's necessary, it'll be on the forced-air unit. On the rendering of the model, there's a curve showing how the air will turn down in to the ports. The support would extend up to the drive shaft housing from there. I say if it's needed, because the housing may end up being strong enough to support it with any additional bracing. There is only about 3.5" from the front of the blower housing, to the center of the motor pulley. I've seen blowers with longer snouts than that.

By the way, the disc on the front of the motor in the models is supposed to represent the emergency brake. I like it there because it's completely hidden. The blower pulley will be made to cover it. People will never guess that there's an emergency brake inside that pulley!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I may have missed it. Does the blower assy bolt to the motor case?


E-brake on the motor? Should it be called a parking brake rather than E-brake. The original E-brakes were a mechanical backup for hydro in case of failure. I believe there are a few regulations were the e-brake must be after the drive shaft in case of drive shaft failure that may take out the hydro lines.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I may have missed it. Does the blower assy bolt to the motor case?
> 
> 
> E-brake on the motor? Should it be called a parking brake rather than E-brake. The original E-brakes were a mechanical backup for hydro in case of failure. I believe there are a few regulations were the e-brake must be after the drive shaft in case of drive shaft failure that may take out the hydro lines.


Yup, it will bolt to the motor case. You didn't miss it, I don't think that was ever mentioned.

In Ohio, you can pretty much do whatever you want. There are no yearly inspections, and I only have to get through one to get it registered (specialty car title). As long as there is an e-brake handle to pull and keep the car from moving, it should be fine. There is nothing in the DMV, that I saw that specifies where the actual brake has to be. It will be a actually be a parking brake on this app.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

That is one thing I respect about Ohio. They do not mess with the car folks too much. 

The main reason for pointing this out was so that if the question was asked you had a correct answer for an inspector. Also if somebody stumbled on this thread and then got busted at inspection they should not whine at you.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You do realise that it is looking more and more like a snail on your motor. You just need a couple of eye stalks and a couple of antenne.

I think the sideways look with the trumpets on it looks ok.
But could you make it a double sided fan and have six (or eight) trumpets, three (or four) on each side? Perhaps fanned outwards like a V engine?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You do realise that it is looking more and more like a snail on your motor. You just need a couple of eye stalks and a couple of antenne.
> 
> I think the sideways look with the trumpets on it looks ok.
> But could you make it a double sided fan and have six (or eight) trumpets, three (or four) on each side? Perhaps fanned outwards like a V engine?


Haha! It's going to be slow as a snail for a while (when it finally moves) so that might be fitting. 

Triple stacks on the passenger side, and the drive unit goes on the driver's side. It should be as interesting to look at as the stacks. I don't want to interfere with the design of the blower, because I want to maintain the cfm rating. The inside surfaces will be nearly identical. That's where the intake/drive layout originates.

The outside surfaces are my creative playground! What you're seeing crawling across my motor are the inner walls. I have to model the surface that faces the fan wheel tomorrow. I believe it was Tesseract who said that is the most critical one. After that I get to play! It'll start losing the snail shape when I start on the outside. I can't wait to get the bolt bosses on it, so it starts lookin like that old Frenzel.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The new front mounting feet look much better.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The new front mounting feet look much better.


Thanks  It will look even better in real life. There are some radiuses and little touches that I don't bother to do in the models sometimes, because the ball mill will automatically create them in machining.

I have some mild clean up work to do, double check everything, then this one will go to Eric for programming.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Making progress, millimeter-by-millimeter.  It seems as if we've figured out a reasonable solution to the SepEx hurdle in the thread on them in the motor forum. Unless something else comes to light, I will be ordering a little 100amp Kelly (60 continuous) to control the field. Steiner has had good results with keeping the field around 45-50 amps and controlling the armature with a standard series controller. He has a separate pack driving the field, that works out to the required current. For the same price that I can put a resistor inline from my 48-volt pack, or build a dedicated field pack, I can setup this little Kelly.

I think I am going to get the 24-72 volt version. That would allow me to find a good deal on a used 72 volt controller, bounce this 48 volt Alltrax to Scratch, and have two running EVs! When I get a monster controller for the Inhaler I can bounce the 72 volt one down to Scratch, and all will be right with the world! 


*Current agenda:*
Motor mounts cut and installed
Driveshaft
48 volt battery pack
100 amp Kelly controller
Electrical wiring, etc.
Maintenance (brakes, etc.)
First "ride"!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Inside surface of the intake side done. I can just mirror this and change the center for the other side. Time to start modeling the exterior surfaces! First, the intake side. I can't wait to do the triple stacks. Those little things on the renderings aren't even close to the real design...

On the way to the shop to babysit the CNC while it finishes the front side of the rear mount - details at 11-ish!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

L'escargot is looking good, not much detail to see on it yet though. I must relearn how to do this CAD thing.



toddshotrods said:


> On the way to the shop to babysit the CNC while it finishes the front side of the rear mount - details at 11-ish!


Popcorn at the ready while watching the UK election results.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still cutting, details and pics tomorrow morning - I'll be beat when I get home, and my cheeks will be cramping from smiling so hard!!!   

He said the front mount looks good, and smiled when I showed him the interior surfaces of the blower...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Glad I haven't missed anything yet. I fell asleep watching the election results roll in.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to smooth it out and add some detail.

















A CAD model coming to life.

























I wish I could capture what's really there in these pics, but there's no way to get a good angle from in front of the machine, or hanging over the top (on a step ladder). The lines and contours of the mounting feet are twice as nice in real aluminum. I've been staring at them on my screen for months now, imagining what they would look like in metal - sweet! 









Next up, some of the motor's mounting pattern will be drilled for reference points when it's flipped over. Then, the fourth axis swings for the first time so it can drill the outside mounting holes, finish the counterbored/bossed mounting surfaces for the bolts, and cut the lower front surfaces (under the motor). That should take a couple hours, and then it gets flipped like a pancake. 

Add 5.5 hours, for a total of 11.5 so far. Not bad. We're making really good time on it because he's been able to crank the feed rate up much faster than the original specs. I think it was running at 120-140% for most of yesterday's session.

I designed the models to allow for a significant amount of hand finishing, a requirement for any show quality part. It doesn't matter how good the design, machining and/or fabrication are, it's not finished until it's been detailed by human hands. So, there's extra material in strategic places to allow it to be fine-tuned, without compromising the integrity of the part.

All that being said, I am extremely impressed with what I see already! It won't take much to fully realize the aesthetic potential.

Edit = I forgot to add that I have 2-3 hours of video. I just haven't completed the editing. It's a coming...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Pretty!

I love the way it has left a thin foil of material so it doesn't chew into the bed.

I will have my dinner and then come back to look at the video.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Pretty!
> 
> I love the way it has left a thin foil of material so it doesn't chew into the bed.
> 
> I will have my dinner and then come back to look at the video.


Thanks Woody. I love the positive attitude...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have some kinks to work out, and minor details to sort through, but the exterior surface is a reality.









This design is turning out to be much less complicated than I had anticipated. The interior and exterior surfaces will be mirror images, with different centers. I'm nearly 75% finished with them. The plenum that the velocity stacks fit on will be a much simpler (to model) piece that bolts into the center recess of the right side. It'll be loaded with artistic flare though.

The drive side will start with a mirror image of the intake side, but will have the drive shaft tube incorporated into it. It will be capped off with a matching, bolt-on, end piece for installation, inspection, and maintenance, of the right angle drive assembly. Most my time will be spent on that. It has to work properly, look right, and be reasonably easy to assemble and maintain. I also have to figure out the lubrication system for the gears.

I am beyond curious about how this is going to sound. I am paying attention to the thicknesses of the metal, trying to keep the flow-related surfaces at approximately .125" finished, to allow the blower to resonate. I was going to cast the stacks, but have seriously been thinking about having them machined to get them as thin as possible. I have experimented with this a lot over the years with different intake and exhaust systems on ICE vehicles. I'm shooting for a ripping sound at higher RPMs. If I succeed, the electric powetrain and forced-air together, will sound like its trying to rip a hole in space and time when it's spinning fast!


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> beyond curious about sound....blower to resonate....I have experimented with this a lot.....ripping sound at higher RPMs.
> 
> Electric powetrain and forced-air together, will sound like its trying to rip a hole in space and time


Very interesting.

I'm realizing I've totally neglected the effect the forced air cooling system can have on the "total package" that is a custom EV.

The sound difference is a big hurdle for lots of car enthusiasts. I've had comments from the datsun Z crowd that they loved the idea but couldn't give up that inline 6 exhaust note. 

Engineered auditory feedback experience, love it


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you measured how long the induction pipework is?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I've heard it claimed much of the 240/260/280Z "engine" noise was actually the motor fan -- that gives hope the Inhaler will be making some great sounds. It's a very original idea!

It was fun when I did a fast takeoff in a parking lot with an EV-1, and could hear a spectator say "Wow, it sounds like a spaceship!"

I read the Segway uses 2:1 gears as those harmonics sound nicer than the more typical higher primes ratios.


AmpEater said:


> ... The sound difference is a big hurdle for lots of car enthusiasts. I've had comments from the datsun Z crowd that they loved the idea but couldn't give up that inline 6 exhaust note.
> 
> Engineered auditory feedback experience, love it


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> I'm realizing I've totally neglected the effect the forced air cooling system can have on the "total package" that is a custom EV.
> 
> ...


"Total package" is the key. A huge part of what's taking so long is I am attempting to design and build a vehicle that will have it's own very unique identity, like a production vehicle. I consider every aspect possible; the sound of the powertrain, the sound of the chassis (since the powertrain will be nearly inaudible at lower RPMs), the feel and sound of the controls - things that usually only big manufacturers think about. I've been working on some of this stuff since I started it in 2005 - a lot of which I had to scrap when it was converted to electric. I am having ten times the fun with the electric setup though. I had a LOT of time invested developing a special exhaust for the small block Chevy that I couldn't figure out how to recapture until the idea of running this forced-air system directly off the motor came along. When I realized that the sound would follow my right foot again, I resumed my mission!



DavidDymaxion said:


> I've heard it claimed much of the 240/260/280Z "engine" noise was actually the motor fan -- that gives hope the Inhaler will be making some great sounds. It's a very original idea!...


It's funny how life's experiences come into play. Before I moved to Columbus I had a decent sized yard with lot of trimming to do around stone-edged flowerbeds, shrubbery, etc. I would spend an hour with the mower, followed by two hours of trimming and blowing. The blower was electric and dragging seventy-five feet of cord around meant it ended up losing the connection a lot. With the electric motor the sound was mostly air and hearing it rise and fall, when the plug came out and was replaced, is probably the foundation for my little experiment here. The rush of the air was a deeper pitched sound than what you think of with an e-motor.

My favorite ICE muffler is the original Flowmaster. I describe it as a deep metallic sound. You literally hear the sound waves bouncing off the two baffle plates - even inside the car, through the floorboards! I am hoping that with the forced-air system being all aluminum it will capture and resonate the arcing and cacophony of the motor, combine it with the deeper rush of the air being sucked in and pushed through at 500+ cfm, and amplify it all through the velocity stacks. Combine that with the characteristic high-pitched whine and I'm hoping it all "says" _power_.

The velocity stacks are the icing on the cake because they will amplify whatever sound I have managed to create; just like the bell of a wind instrument, or an antique record-player. I just hope they're playing a good tune! 

If the motor noise is annoying I can put a sound deadening gasket between the forced-air system and the motor case. Get a cheap mechanic's stethoscope and listen to an electric motor - there's a lot of racket in there!  Ideally, if it sounds nice through the system, I would have a nice little burble at low speeds that transitions into my space/time ripping snarl. 



Woodsmith said:


> Have you measured how long the induction pipework is?


That was pretty cool Woody! 

About 42"


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe you can add some valves to the setup for fine tuning, or playing tunes


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe you can add some valves to the setup...


Smart @$$!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nah, you don't want trumpet valves, organ valves and reeds sound so much better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FXoyr_FyFw

But then so do strings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg8Fa_EUQqY&feature=related

However, looks better this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNc278W45ck&feature=related


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Nah, you don't want trumpet valves, organ valves and reeds sound so much better.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FXoyr_FyFw
> 
> But then so do strings.
> ...


Tsk...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdiQU6MbNnA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm glad you guys are having fun, but please no more pipe organs and band instruments. This is going to be a whole page of it pretty soon. I realize my methods are controversial, and probably seem completely unnecessary to people who just want a working EV, but I assure you it all has a purpose.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, serious now.

Do you know what the CFM of that fan will be and where the expelled air will go?
Just wondering in terms of the warm draught of brush dust somewhere in front of the driver.

Side pipes maybe?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> OK, serious now.
> 
> Do you know what the CFM of that fan will be and where the expelled air will go?
> Just wondering in terms of the warm draught of brush dust somewhere in front of the driver.
> ...


The original leaf blower was rated at 535cfm @ 191mph (at the end of the pipe that attached to it). Since I am modeling the internal shape of the blower as closely as possible, and the air will be routed almost directly into the comm end ports, it should produce the same numbers. I'll be able to change pulleys and belts to fine-tune it.

My guess is that with a low pressure zone behind the track nose, the "exhaust" out of the drive end ports will be sucked out into the high pressure areas to either side of the motor, and stream down the sides of the body. If not, and it goes up in front of the windshield, or inside the truck, I plan to make ducts that will wrap around the drive end ports and channel the dust and warm air away. I'm mixed between discreetly sending it through an opening in the belly pan, or some type of "exhaust" pipes.

I need to see the motor installed, with the forced-air unit, to make the decision. The main consideration is when enough-is-enough. I actually have some sketches (from "back when" I still used pencils ) where I tried this and it looked too cluttered up; too busy. I struggled with getting the air from the blower into the comm end ports cleanly, no matter where the blower was located. The first versions had a small blower hidden in the track nose with ducting back to the ports and I didn't like it. The exhaust pipes were complete overkill.

For those of you saying, "and that huge blower on top of the motor isn't?!" - it's a street rod. Street rods are known for having massive engines stuffed in them. How they're stuffed in is where the art form comes in. For example:
















This is one of the finest street rods built. It was probably one vehicle away from winning the top honor in the industry. It went on to win a host of other big awards, including Street Rod of the Year, that same year. That big Hemi, with triple stacks reaching for the clouds is a huge part of what makes the whole formula work. When you lose the hood, you bring the motor up through the opening. What makes it a prize-winning vehicle is it's clean. There isn't anything out of place, or any extra stuff. It's carefully implemented wretched excess. Probably only cost a million or so bucks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm getting close on the video. I've managed to squeeze hours of video down to about nine minutes, that I think still tells the story. I just need an ending now. We were supposed to finish the motor side Saturday, but the call never came. Hopefully one day this week that will happen and I'll be able to post the first video. I'm trying to keep it down to about twelve minutes - a nice mini movie!  I've probably watched the entire video a dozen times, and it seems to go by pretty quick.

Any suggestions/requests for background music? I tried it with some jazz I had on my computer but it just didn't fit the "mood" of the occasion.

I think the next one will be pretty nice because I have a better idea of what to shoot. I started figuring out how to catch the drama by the last machining session.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm looking forward to your video! For music: Electric Avenue (just kidding!), AC/DC High Voltage (Dirty Deeds) (hmm, not quite...), It's Electric by Metallica http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric....cs-Metallica/0C23A7348A9D22874825688D00356AA9 .

I love that hot rod on the Salt Flats (you can't take a bad picture on the Salt Flats!). Interesting that it has narrow wheels, but that works on that car.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I love that hot rod on the Salt Flats (you can't take a bad picture on the Salt Flats!). Interesting that it has narrow wheels, but that works on that car.


A narrow wheel-n-tire combo is a must for an authentic vintage look. I compromised in the name of performance - the Inhaler is tainted... 

*Update:*
The schedule is to finish a couple customer parts tomorrow  and wrap up the motor side of the mount Wednesday. If all goes according to plans, I will have those parts shipped out Wednesday morning (if you're reading this), and video by the weekend. Still taking votes for background music. I am feeling the rock thing - seems like hot rods and rock just go together, like peanut butter and jelly. You can have either/or, but they're so good together! 

Friday the mount gets flipped over and Pt. 2 begins; rough-in and mounting holes. It will probably be a pretty productive session because the roughing mill sheds pounds of aluminum pretty rapidly. Saturday is the conclusion of the rough-in, and start of the finish machining. It could _possibly_ be done Sunday!

Those are the goals. I am looking forward to it, but also keeping a level head because goals eventually meet up wih real life, and stuff happens...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Any good movie needs a trailer, right? 

How do you embed YouTube videos here? I copied the embed code, pasted it, and clicked the YouTube button, while it was highlighted, and it just showed the code text in tags, in the preview.

Edit = I also tried the url in youtube tags. I got a blank space where the video should be...?

I forgot about copyright infringement issues, and had to use YouTube approved music from their site. I just picked the first artist I found that was close, because I grew tired of hearing what I was clicking on! I had It's Electric by Metallica in it. 

It matched up pretty well with the video though, almost like I purposely synchronized it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good trailer.
Looking forward to the main feature.
Will you be serving ice cream during the interval?

Hey, wouldn't this be great in 3D from the milling head point of view!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Good trailer.
> Looking forward to the main feature.
> Will you be serving ice cream during the interval?
> 
> Hey, wouldn't this be great in 3D from the milling head point of view!


Thanks. Ice cream is $20 a scoop, if you hold out your hand. $2 for a cup, and $5 for a cone.

The milling head would be cool, but I would have more fun making people scream and duck from flying chips and coolant!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Any good movie needs a trailer, right?
> 
> How do you embed YouTube videos here? I copied the embed code, pasted it, and clicked the YouTube button, while it was highlighted, and it just showed the code text in tags, in the preview.
> 
> Edit = I also tried the url in youtube tags. I got a blank space where the video should be...?


I haven't figured it out yet either, though I've seen others do it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I haven't figured it out yet either, though I've seen others do it.


Weird because it works everywhere else. I put it on my site, on PFF, on my Facebook page...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The schedule got bumped back a few days. We didn't do any machining yet this week, but are rescheduled for tomorrow at noon. I probably won't finish the video until next week, but there should be pics of the first side finished tomorrow or Sunday.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More to come...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> More to come...


You are such a tease, Todd!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You are such a tease, Todd!




Drilling...









Counterboring...









...and, the motor side is a wrap (as far as CNC machine work goes). Notice the mounting holes for the motor have also been drilled. It's starting to look like my model - I am such a proud papa! 









I'll post pics of the rough-in of the second side in the morning, before I head back to the shop for the finish machine work. The rough-in is finished, and we expect to *complete* the CNC machine work tomorrow!  The mount itself is far from finished though. Eventually there will be as much time in hand detailing as there is in design and machining! 

We've estimated that the bill for this mount by itself would be a good bit north of $25K!  Hmmm, let's see, I still have to do the front motor mount, the forced-air unit, the steering wheel, the gauge panel, the grille trim ring, the brake master cylinder reservoir...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How did you convince this guy to give away that much machining? Will he be my friend too?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks great!
I can see why you mentioned a few times before about the value of, and need for, hand finishing in a piece like this. It will look fantastic when you are done with it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> How did you convince this guy to give away that much machining? Will he be my friend too?


Maybe if you ask nicely! 

It's not given away, we're working business to business. There's actually more time in design on a part like this. I don't do what he does, and he doesn't do what I do. Put the two together and you get outstanding results.

I could have paid for his programming and machine work with a few customer jobs but that would have taken my attention away from the project. The goal is to use this as an opportunity to move both of our businesses upscale a bit in markets. We need deep-pocket customers to allow us to realize our full potential.

I think he's enjoying this as much as I am. Eric has done some incredibly complex machining projects, but last night he said this mount is by far the coolest automotive project he's done so far! 

_You ain't seen nothin yet_!  I have stuff that would make this seem like a LeapFrog compared to a high-end laptop. I picked this project, and these specific parts, to start because I knew they would get the ship sailing in the right direction. I've already started collecting parts, and doing preliminary design work, for the next project...




Woodsmith said:


> That looks great!
> I can see why you mentioned a few times before about the value of, and need for, hand finishing in a piece like this. It will look fantastic when you are done with it.


Thanks Woody. After the machine work is finished, I will probably do a little bit of clean-up work; but my attention will shift to installation pretty quick. I'll get it smoothed out a little, and shimmering in a sanded satin-finish (hides imperfections nice ), but the real finishing will happen later - maybe over the winter. Right now I need to see everything together, and make this puppy move! 

I'm trying to wrap up the front mount model this morning so I can hand it to him, for programming, when this one comes out of the machine. I'm having some little pesky techinical issues though.


Second side rough-in pics in a little while.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks great!
> ...need for, hand finishing in a piece like this...


I should add that it is possible for the CNC to "spit out" a piece that is nearly perfect, and with a mirror-like, almost polished, finish. The thing is that requires additional modeling and programming time, then more machining time. On a show car part, the machine can't see what a human sees, and can't make decisions based on that, to make subtle enhancements as the part is being finished. For that you leave enough material to play with, but not so much that you have to put in extra work for it to look right. You also make sure the machine does the job in areas that you can't afford human error, whether that's for precision or appearance.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It is the same in my business. A machine can spit out a perfectly straight and flat bit of wood but a hand can tell that the finish is machined. Hand finishing can make the difference between a good peice and a great piece, a bespoke piece and a factory piece.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First locate it, using the motor mounting holes.









Here we go...

















Looks like it's destroying it huh? You have to have a lot of faith in the machine when it's doing this because sometimes it looks like it's going too far too fast!









Excess material removed; now it's time to shape up.









This is the point where my face started to hurt from smiling so much!

















Got a text from Eric as I was typing this - finish machining begins at 1pm today...


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

WOOHOO! looking good! Good to hear that its on the finishing stage today!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

catwalk7382 said:


> Cool...


Huh?!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Huh?!


Spam attack. Should disappear soon. Why do they bother?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Huh?!


It's a spammer. Posting almost, but not quite, right posts at random.

The machining is looking great, amazing how much material is removed in the process.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We didn't finish - one more day. I'm too beat to mess with the pics right now, but they'll be up tomorrow. The CNC was making good time, then Eric hit a little snag in programming the counterbores for the mounting holes. The software didn't like something in my counterbore surfaces, so he had to recreate them, and then set up the program again. That cost enough time to definitely push us into Monday.

We also decided to run another pass of the finishing program to improve the surface I start hand finishing on. Like I said, I left enough in the design for situations like this. It adds about four hours to the time though.

I also have the front model almost ready for programming. I just have to check for, and patch, any voids between surfaces. I gave the mounting feet a little extra "personality" as well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, I have a lot of pics! I am going to break this up into three or four sets. If I'm sharing too much detail let me know, and I'll pare it down to the bare minumum. Since I've been sharing the whole process from the first model, I figured people might be interested in seeing the steps it takes to get to a finished part. Here's the first group, another will follow later today:

Machining the counterbores.


























The special counterbore on the top seven holes is contoured to "gather" light and highlight the 12pt mounting bolt's head. Notice how bright it is compared to the normal counterbores. A subtle design trick, that probably added 3-4 hours to the project so far (design, programming, and machining), and quite a few to go with carefully hand finishing them.










With the mounting holes drilled and counterbored, the plate can now be bolted to the table to finish the rough-in of this side. First, we need holes to bolt it to.









Bolted down and ready...









... to get rid of the blocks that were left for the clamps.

















The next round of pics is the beginning of the finish machining. Like I said, if this is too much detail let me know.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Todd,

I don't think there's such a thing as "too much detail". Your thread, and Fishguts' are the ones I look forward to every morning. Keep it up. I think a lot of us live vicariously through your builds.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I second that, detail is good!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More is better... 

Here's the first round of finishing from yesterday. I'm on my way there in an hour or so, to get more.









































Eric said he cranked the feed rate down and fired the CNC back up to run this program again, while on his lunch break. That way it should have been nearing completion by the time he got home from work. Last night we noticed that it was leaving material in places, and today he discovered that the tool was chipped. You can see them around the mounting holes (not the rough sections on the bottom half - those program hadn't been run yet). The roughing mill left some pretty heavy sections for it to dig into, and that's probably when it happened. It should have a really nice surface now.

The goal is to wrap it up tonight, if all goes according to plans...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is looking so close to being strokeable.













Though not in a personal way.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a sweet piece  Now you need a plexiglass firewall so you can see it


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is looking so close to being strokeable....


 ! 

I told Eric I'm not putting it in the car. I'm putting it on the coffee table with a little TV or computer screen in it so I don't miss anything while I stare at it! 




JRP3 said:


> That's a sweet piece  Now you need a plexiglass firewall so you can see it


We also discussed that. It's sad that there even has to be a firewall behind it. I thought about that when I was working on the model, and moved the firewall back a few inches away from the motor but it still prevents seeing it fully. It should be in a mid-engine car, and under glass like a Ferrari. 



*Now for today's update:*
Sorry I don't have good news. There's an issue with the programming software understanding the surfaces of my model. For some reason it can't properly determine where one surface ends and another begins, in a couple places. Because of that, the CNC took a little bite out of the mount today. It's a small nip on the bottom, but there will be a short delay to repair it. It's going to an aluminum welding specialist to have the metal put back in. After that's finished, and he figures out a way to get it to recognize the surfaces properly, it'll be back on the table for final finishing.

I'm actually pleased with the fact that we made it this far with only one minor glitch; and that it happened to be on the bottom of the mount where you would probably need a mirror to see it. Being perfectionists though, neither one of us will be satisfied until it's fixed properly. He played the animation for me, and it's really strange because it was just a thin shred of surface (that shouldn't have been there) passing through another surface. The animation had to be spun to just the right angle to even see it. When it concluded it looked perfect, but the CNC was directed to cut that surface. It didn't show up in the roughing program either, just in finishing.

Remember, I originally planned to run the entire program on a block of wood or plastic. I just figured since Eric and I both like taking risks, clamp the aluminum down and cut it - it's only metal! 

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

About the video: I freed up space on my main hard drive by dumping all the videos to an external hard drive, but didn't realize that Windows Movie Maker was reading them from the location on the drive. So now I have a bunch of Xs where there should be video clips - all gone!  I am going to try to restore it, but had to just walk away for a while...

I might just wait until after the final surfacing is done and go for a complete beginning to end CNC video.

Speaking of that, the mount won't be back from the welder until early next week, so machining won't resume until sometime next week.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Back on track. Eric called this afternoon and told me the welding was finished and asked if I could pick the mount up - sure!  It's going back to his shop tomorrow to resume the machine work, but I had the opportunity to get/give a sneak peek because my car had some issues and I had to come home after picking it up.

The first thing I did was go straight to the motor to see if it fit.  I'm a little tight on the outside diameter of the recess, but the mounting pattern is perfect! The holes in the mount haven't been finished bored yet, and are really tight - you have to line the bolts up just right and wiggle them a little if they get cocked - but, once in the hole, they go straight to the DE holes and thread in easily by hand. The outside diameter inteference isn't because the recess is too small, it's because the DE has some bumps and lumps on it. It only catches in few places. A little work with a sanding drum to level the high spots and it will be a nice tight fit.









Here's what was welded. The little nick the CNC put in it is buried in weld now. Eric had them add weld along the top and bottom edges of the concave crossmember mounting surface to run the programs over these areas again. It seemed to have removed a little too much material, which really wouldn't have been noticeable, but perfectionists can't ever leave well enough alone.  Mind you, this area would be pretty much buried under the motor, but _we_ would know what's down there...











After playing with the mount on the motor for a while, I decided to see what it would look like in the truck; with the mock-up motor. This shot will finally show you guys why the blower won't be in my face. Notice the height of the firewall? The blower will barely peek up over it - just enough to draw attention to the motor, and proclaim to the world that there's something different going on down there.









Now, I have another problem! Now that it's out of my computer screen, and "live in living aluminum", I hate the fact that the back of the mount is going to be concealed by the firewall. When the front (motor) side was being machined I had no clue what the CNC was doing because an overwhelming majority of my time was spent modeling the back side. I had almost forgotten what the front looked like! 

I don't know what I am going to do about it yet, but somehow that has to be seen - clearly! This is just one of those things that comes up on a hot rod build. A part that was meant to be a supporting cast member suddenly develops star potential. You have to find a way to capitalize on it. Eric and I both have a good bit of time just getting those freakin counterbores right - and they would be completely insignificant with the firewall directly behind them. (Notice the inset side-view pic.) They can't play tricks with light if none ever finds them!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A mirror on the firewall? Polished stainless?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A mirror on the firewall? Polished stainless?


That would be the least complicated solution. I'll try to get a piece of mirror tomorrow and test it to see how well it works, before I take the mount back to Eric's. It would definitely be polished stainless if it works, because then it can be modeled and machined to look right. You know I can't do anything simple right?!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

By the way, anyone with this motor that needs mounting plates, adapters, etc., I can accommodate. I was waiting to be certain the pattern was correct - it is. A simple plate with just a center hole and the mounting pattern can be cut lickity-split. More complex requests can be done quicker or cheaper, take your pick. The more reasonably-priced machine shops usually are moonlight, after the day job, types. You may have to wait longer... The ones that will make it a priority charge accordingly. PM if interested.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I may be wrong but it looks like the drive shaft will need to go through the current fire wall?

If so a shallow half inch to one inch inset that frames the motor that has the vertical lined with stainless. Build the recess contour on the inside of the fire wall and use it to mount the stainless plate and drive shaft tunnel.

Idle thoughts form a brain that needs caffeine......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I may be wrong but it looks like the drive shaft will need to go through the current fire wall?
> 
> If so a shallow half inch to one inch inset that frames the motor that has the vertical lined with stainless. Build the recess contour on the inside of the fire wall and use it to mount the stainless plate and drive shaft tunnel.
> 
> Idle thoughts form a brain that needs caffeine......


What are you waiting for, I start my caffeine drip around 6:30am! 

You see well. The firewall has to be cut for the driveshaft to pass through, and there is a recess pretty much how you described it (minus the SS) in the rendering. That was always a part of the plan to highlight the motor, mount, and power transfer to the driveshaft.

I just can't put a flat piece of metal there.  It's going to have to be cut or cast to have the detail I want. I can purchase a brand new 12 x 24" billet piece for $321 (.750" thick) or $425 (1" thick). That's not too bad, I'll see what they have at the local scrap place when I actually get ready for it. I did some preliminary research and CAD/CNC is probably going to be more feasible than casting, even with destroying a couple/few milling tools in the process. To be cast without losing the real stainless properties, it has to be done in a induction furnace, in a controlled environment (nitrogen liquid or gas sheilding). Sounds prohibitively expensive for a motor mirror. 

We can probably come close enough to the mirror surface in finish machining to make it easy to hand polish. I also want to play some tricks with the finish and have a polished "window" in the center with brushed or machine finish on the outside contours. I've been working on plans for textures, hues, and final finishes. Brushed or machined stainless are a one of the accents I had planned, so this may work well.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Now, I have another problem! Now that it's out of my computer screen, and "live in living aluminum", I hate the fact that the back of the mount is going to be concealed by the firewall. When the front (motor) side was being machined I had no clue what the CNC was doing because an overwhelming majority of my time was spent modeling the back side. I had almost forgotten what the front looked like!
> 
> I don't know what I am going to do about it yet, but somehow that has to be seen - clearly! This is just one of those things that comes up on a hot rod build. A part that was meant to be a supporting cast member suddenly develops star potential. You have to find a way to capitalize on it. Eric and I both have a good bit of time just getting those freakin counterbores right - and they would be completely insignificant with the firewall directly behind them. (Notice the inset side-view pic.) They can't play tricks with light if none ever finds them!


Todd,

It seems to me a transparent Firewall and Driveshaft Tunnel would be a very interesting effect. A fully transparent interior showing controller, Batteries and wiring would be an awsome effect.

Just a thought,
Jim


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Left coast.... French press was steeping at the time. Your coffee was starting about the time I was getting to sleep....

Still not up to digging through the 50 plus pages (congrats!?) for a rendering. So as a fabrication concept (execute in either stainless or Aluminum):

1) Bend a hoop of tubing (2 to 3 inch diameter 0.120 wall or so) for a perimeter
2) Tig on a flange in the middle for the recess 
3) Cut out the pasenger's compartment part of tube that is not needed. 
4) Weld in attachment hardware if needed
5) polish and clear powder coat to taste

If you are standing over the motor looking at a cross section through the fire wall: the hoop on the drivers side (left drive) would have the plate flange welded at the 9:00 position. If you cut at 10:00 and then at about the 5:00 position (in the plane of the firewall) You will have a nice little sculpted in recess that mimics your mount.....

Let me know if I didn't get this down clearly and I'll draw and scan a picture.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Todd,
> 
> It seems to me a transparent Firewall and Driveshaft Tunnel would be a very interesting effect. A fully transparent interior showing controller, Batteries and wiring would be an awsome effect.
> 
> ...


It would be a neat trick, and with my obsessive tendencies what they saw behind the "glass" would be nice eye candy, but it wouldn't pass tech with sanctioning bodies (glorified race car). Even if the materials are stronger, you have to submit engineering data (for the specific application) and wait to be approved.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...Still not up to digging through the 50 plus pages (congrats!?) for a rendering....


It's just a quickly hashed out representation, but that was the general idea.











MJ Monterey said:


> ...50 plus pages (congrats!?)....







MJ Monterey said:


> ...Let me know if I didn't get this down clearly and I'll draw and scan a picture...


I stood inside the motor, then inside the cockpit, then stopped to think where I would have to be to see the flange at 9 o'clock, flapped my wings and hovered over the top and finally saw what you see! Got it.

Next time drink more coffee before you do that, or make sure I haven't had so much! 

I love the fabricaton process, especially the use of tubing to create the radiused surfaces! That would be fun to make, for sure. It has to have a larger overall radius than the motor to put the full image of the motor mount in the mirror; from a wide variety of viewing angles. As people walk around and look I want them to see the back of the mount almost as if it's playing on a screen.

I gotta go to the mailbox, then fix my car so I can get the mount to Eric's today. More to come.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

This is great stuff!

This is my ignorance: Can you have it plated for a mirror finish? If not, what are the obstacles? Thanks.


toddshotrods said:


> ... To be cast without losing the real stainless properties, it has to be done in a induction furnace, in a controlled environment (nitrogen liquid or gas sheilding). Sounds prohibitively expensive for a motor mirror.
> 
> We can probably come close enough to the mirror surface in finish machining to make it easy to hand polish. I also want to play some tricks with the finish and have a polished "window" in the center with brushed or machine finish on the outside contours. I've been working on plans for textures, hues, and final finishes. Brushed or machined stainless are a one of the accents I had planned, so this may work well.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

O.k. switched confusers and we have a picture (I hope)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> This is great stuff!
> 
> This is my ignorance: Can you have it plated for a mirror finish? If not, what are the obstacles? Thanks.


Thanks David. It could be chrome plated aluminum, steel, brass, etc.; but polished stainless is just awesome. If it's good stainless it keeps that deep shine forever, and can always be re-polished (instead of the whole plating process, if it gets a scuff or something. I'm also not big on chrome for my projects because I am race-oriented (even if just for the look) and it's not what you normally see on race cars. Polished stainless headers are not uncommon for a racer though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> O.k. switched confusers and we have a picture (I hope)


Yeah, I like that. It's really similar to what I had in mind for machining or casting, but with a much softer perimeter; due to the tubular construction. I was going to model a smaller concave roll, possibly with a small bead breaking up the transition into the mirror surface - almost furniture style. What I need to do is figure out the locations of the stuff that has to pass thru the firewall and model everything. There aren't really a lot of components, but it doesn't take much to make a small firewall like this look busy at best; cluttered and messy, at the worst. The mandatory stuff is the driveshaft, steeirng column, and roll cage front tubes. My pedal assembly puts the master cylinder in the center of the firewall, and I was going to do a CAD/CNC reservoir to match the motor mounts and forced-air unit. I might have to think about concealing the master cylinder, and see if it's possible to run the front cage tubes parallel to the steering shaft. That would allow me to pretty much blend the steering shaft with the left tube. If all that works then the whole firewall could just be a backdrop for the motor.

What software are you working in? I need to get decent rendering software, but never make it priority because it's not necessary for machining. Nice for presentation though.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Solidworks the full copy has the rendering program.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New problem - Eric just offered to sell me two big chunks of billet basically for scrap prices. One is 2'x3'x1" thick! The other is similarly sized and .750" thick. Oh the things a guy like me could dream up to not waste that metal!  I just don't really need it for _this_ project...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Buy em and set in the corner till they are needed. Sounds like the raw form of brackets and suspension components to me. 

Maybe:

windshield posts 
rear window trim ring
Tail Light mounts
Steering wheel core
Hand brake and shift levers

You will get an idea....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...You will get an idea....


That's the problem.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Indeed, it's a slippery slope. I keep brackets, scrap metal, fittings, whatever, because I might need them in the future. I often do end up using them, but just as often I spend more time searching for just the right piece or making something work than I would have spent going out and buying exactly what I needed.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, that is looking so good mounted, even roughly mounted.
Get yer car fixed and get it back to Eric for more machining!

I'd praise more but I've injured my back and typing isn't so easy at the mo.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The motor mount is back at Eric's. He is going to set it up tonight, and push the button around 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. I'll be there. He figured out a nice solution for the programming issue that I will be able to do before I hand the models over, as soon as I learn my way around Pro/E.

He said machining stainless is not an issue...  The 1" thick aluminum plate is really, really, tempting - we'll see.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I knew there was something funny about that rendering. I made a couple minor revisions a little while after I posted it (about twenty pages ago ), but never uploaded the revised art to my site. I just did.

If you look at it you may not even notice the difference. I had the body skirted down over the frame rails, but decided I wanted it high-boy style, with exposed main rails. I want to highlight the chassis, not conceal it. It, and all the suspension parts, will be black - dep, rich, high-gloss on the main parts (frame, rear end,etc) , with some satin and flat powder coating on the smaller pieces (control arms, etc) for accent.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Whittling away! It's been running since about 8:20am, has 3-4hrs to go. The first few hours were just running the same program over the main surfaces of the back side again to get them really nice. Next it starts finifhing the mounting feet and crossmember mounting surface. Final program, if we get to it today, will be to swing the 4th axis into play and bore and thread-mill the four central mounting bolt holes. Once that's done this puppy comes out og the mill for the last time, and I start working on installing the motor!

I'm going to need some sleeves cut for that, four .750" bore, and two .750-10 threaded, to fabricate the crossmember insert. I also have to talk shop with Eric, to see where he is and what the timeline is for the front mount. 

Uh-oh, something's off! Just hit emergency stop, gotta go! Details in a few...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Update:*
Too much weld in the area where it wanted to start on the crossmember mounting surface, plunged in and snapped the .500" ball-nosed finishing mill like a candy cane! I memorized the position of the Emergency Stop button well! When it happened I instinctively reached, and looked to find my finger right on the button - press and stop!  . Running the big roughing mill again first this time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One more day and CNC work on this puppy will come to a close. Then it's time for motor mounting and hand finishing.

The additional round of finishing on the main surfaces really worked well, and leaves me with a nice headstart on hand finishing.









Then, it was time for a pedicure.









All smoothed out. I love the way my counterbores are grabbing big handfuls of light and bouncing them back!  I'm still very unhappy about concealing them. I ran out of time, but when I bring this mount home to start installing the motor I am getting a piece of mirror to see if that's going to satisfy me before I do anything else. I really want to see this side of the mount...









Eric has to digitally center the fixtured mount, the relative to the A (4th axis) center, for tomorrow's session. There is some finish machine work left to do under the bottom center of the mount, that couldn't be reached from 3-axis machining, and then bore the four holes and thread-mill. I still have to order the helicoils, center studs and nuts, outside bolts, etc, but we're waiting until all the machine work is finished to be certain the order is right. I have the order in the cart at McMaster-Carr, ready to checkout. So far, it's around $100 with the front mount hardware.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been tossing the mirror idea around in my head and playing around with a rough-draft model of it. I'm thinking about just going all the way off the deep end with it:









The black discs are the roll cage tubes and steering shaft points. The surface protruding upwards in the center is for the brake linkage. I came up with a rocker arm setup that will mount the master cylinder under the dash. That gives me an extra measure of tuning in the rocker arm ratio, and the option to add power assist later, without aesthetic concerns. There would be a whittled cover that bolts on there.

The idea is an aluminum plate, with a polished stainless mirror in the center "window", that ties together all the individual components that come through the firewall. Rather than a bunch of different items, with varying angles and composition, your eyes are drawn to one large, sculptured, part that has a lot of sophisticated assemblies incorporated into it.

The .750" piece of aluminum Eric has would be big enough to whittle this one. It would be radiused around all the edges, so the large sections of it would be recessed. That recess would be deep, leaving only about .0625-.125" thickness; both to reduce weight and add detail. I haven't modeled any of this yet because I still just testing the general idea.

It would roll out, from the recess, and then back in again, to the mirror window. Basically a semi-elliptical shape that matches the motor mount - as MJ suggested. That gives approximately .750" from the front of the roll to the back surface where the mirror mounts. The mirror itself will pick up from this and roll into its main surface, and then roll back into the drivehaft opening. Right now I am thinking about a combination of CNC & fabrication for the mirror. If I start with a 1" plate, and machine it down to .125-.1875" thickness for the main mirror surface, that leaves a significant roll into it from the firewall plate. Then, to finish the inner roll into the driveshaft tunnel I can use stainless steel tubing cut and welded to the mirror plate - the process MJ suggested.

The reason I would prefer to machine the main section of the mirror are cost and consistency. A custom radius bend in tubing for the external roll would cost more than it would to machine it. The internal radius is small enough that a conventional mandrel-bent section of tubing can be used - much cheaper. The actual process would be to do the profile cut, a course rough-in of the mirror surface and roll, weld the tube inner roll, a secondary rough-in, and then the finish machining. The point is to use the milling process to eliminate any warping from welding, and to perfectly machine the excess weld off.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the concept.

I am concerned with that much aluminum over powering the motor as a visual centerpiece.

An option for your consideration: Two tear drop shaped trim pieces (same trim ring you were going to use for the tail lights?) for the cage legs that include a hole for the steering column. On the passengers side mount an emergency cutoff switch through the lower hole. Then pull the outer edge of the plate inward, which will tend to pull the eye to the concentric arcs leading to the motor.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Haven't used one yet, But for custom radius bends: http://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-roller-99736.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I want the body to be removable, meaning there has to be an opening that extends down to the frame, for the cage tubes to pass thru as the body lifts off. I never rendered it, but I had planned all along to have aluminum plates under the tubes for that. I hadn't decided how they would be finished (metal, painte, etc). I know what you mean about the plate competing for attention, but I think separate parts on the firewall would be more distracting.

When you approach or view an open-hood street rod the motor is usually the first thing you focus on. Compared to the complexity of the motor and forced-air unit, the recessed plate would be less interesting. Also, a large portion of it would be a reflection of the rear mount motor. That should make the motor even more dominant, like using mirrors to make a room seem bigger. The plate itself should just appear to be an elaborate mid plate motor mount, which corresponds with the racing intentions.


Here's another look, with an old track nose from back in its ICE days. I had to scale it up to current size, which grossly exaggerated the trim ring, but it gives a better idea of what you would see.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The nose does help balance out the aluminum plate. 

And with body removal your plate makes even more sense.

Would there be a safe and legal way to sandwich in a plate with LED lights between the aluminum and Stainless pieces?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> The nose does help balance out the aluminum plate...


I love playing with light, lines, surfaces,field of vision, etc. You obviously have a natural instinct for it, and seem to enjoy it as well. The only handicap here is you can't see what's in my head - which might be safer for you though!  I "see" the whole vehicle, so I have a good idea how each piece would look on it. When the forced-air unit is all in place it will do even more to blend the plate into the background. There's also the front tires and cage tubes, which will partically obstruct your view of the plate. Actually even the body and windshield will reduce the firewall plate's impact because they'll effectively reduce its size, in relation to the rest of the vehicle.



MJ Monterey said:


> ...Would there be a safe and legal way to sandwich in a plate with LED lights between the aluminum and Stainless pieces?


Yup!  I don't know if it will be a plate or holes bored in one of the parts, but you're dead on there. Ideally, I would like to do a second setup on the firewall plate to continue rolling the radius that meets the mirror. That would allow a more sophisticated undercut surface where the two join. While the plate was flipped over in that second setup, a channel could be machined inside the roll on the firewall plate to fit the light assembly, and holes bored for the actual lights to shine through. This would all be invisible while standing and looking at the vehicle, because it's all in that undercut area. The undercut would also help smooth the transition between aluminum and stainless.

Another idea I have for that transistion is to polish the entire mirror then carefully bead blast the perimeter so that it kind of fades into the mirror surface. The goal with all this is to make people see the back of the motor - then - realize how they're seeing it!  So as they "follow the power stream" down from the forced-air unit, through the motor and out into driveshaft, they will eventually realize that they're looking at the back of the motor mount in a mirror and start picking apart how that whole setup works.

Hope this makes sense:









The one question is what the light would do, at night, from this perspective? I'll experiment tonight with my little LED flashlight and bathroom mirror to see what shows up.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the idea of the lighting.
How about using fibre optics and being able to vary the light to suit the ambient lighting and the audience?


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

use color phaze change diode in polished recess inside or just in front of drive shaft tunnel. small faceted recess multiply amount of light 5-10 x mabey euro turn signal refector. then bounce that off white surface tword motor mount like indirect moodlighting what ya think


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like the idea of the lighting.
> How about using fibre optics and being able to vary the light to suit the ambient lighting and the audience?


I really like that idea, and it _should_ make it easier to do inside the available space.

I did a first round test of light bouncing off the mirror earlier and liked what I saw. You can aim the light to focus on the area you want. I might be able to aim the fiber optic light sources to different areas of the mount and epoxy them in place once properly aimed. That might allow me to really highlight things like the counterbores.

I have to do some research on fiber optics, and then some experimenting... Thanks.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harrield said:


> use color phaze change diode in polished recess inside or just in front of drive shaft tunnel. small faceted recess multiply amount of light 5-10 x mabey euro turn signal refector. then bounce that off white surface tword motor mount like indirect moodlighting what ya think


That's pretty much what's going to take place with the fiber optics - the light will come from the undercut area, which is just in front of the tunnel, and bounce off the mirror to reveal the back of the motor mount.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Another idea I have for that transistion is to polish the entire mirror then carefully bead blast the perimeter so that it kind of fades into the mirror surface. The goal with all this is to make people see the back of the motor - then - realize how they're seeing it!


 I believe you have come up with a new execution in a world where most everything has been done before....


I've seen and done colour fades with paint.

Ive bead blasted trim bezels in open cars to tone down the sun reflections.

I've seen the polished back surface of tanker trucks sand blasted to stop the hazardous reflection of headlights....

I've seen mirrors and glass frosted (sandblasted) to Highlight what is viewed in them...

I have never seen a purposeful fade in metal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I doubt that it's the first time it's been done.  I have some tricks up my sleeve that I think may not have been, but you won't see those posted on the 'net until they're on a nearly finished car.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We got the four center holes bored this evening. It took longer than expected to verify the locations, so we decided to stop there. The risk was a huge drill bit coming through the side! 

The mount _could_ be out of the clamps for the last time tomorrow. All that's left is to helicoil those holes and run the last finish program on the bottom of the mount.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The rear mount is out of the clamps for the last time! Time for motor installation, and an insane amout of hand detailing...

Drilling the four inner mounting bolts to .78125" for the .750-10 helicoils.









I forgot to take pics as the machine was running the final finish program on the bottom but this after it finished.








If you're wondering what's with the missing metal near the center, that is one of the areas that was TIG'd for resurfacing (in addition to the nick that was filled). He couldn't fit the torch in there to weld it from the other side, so he tried to get enough penetration from this side, but obviously didn't quite make it. I will have that spot filled again, and hand finish it later.

The helicoils will be installed after all the grinding is done.

The front mount model is in his hands now. It should be well under twenty hours, and he may even be ready to push the button on it next week. I told him not to worry about video and pics with it. If I'm not there and he wants to let it run while he's in the shop, he can go for it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wowee that is beautiful work.

Why do helicoils, why not just tap the aluminum directly?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Wowee that is beautiful work.
> 
> Why do helicoils, why not just tap the aluminum directly?


Thanks David.  There a couple good reasons to use the inserts. One, aluminum is much softer than the steel studs that will be installed in the holes. Should a little debris get in the threads there's a good chance that it would probably rip the aluminum threads right out, during installation or removal of the studs. There shouldn't be a need to remove the studs again, but there's also no 100% guarantee that one day the one of the studs won't backout before the nut comes off.

Secondly, even though this mount is probably sufficiently over-engineered to prevent it, enough torque could also rip the soft aluminum threads out. The inserts are permanently threaded into the aluminum, basically embedding them, so that it's steel against steel. Steel threaded inserts in aluminum are pretty much standard practice, and the results of not installing them in the beginning are usually that you end up installing them to repair the stripped out hole. 

I'm sure one of the serious engineering types here can give a more scientific explanation. I'm just an engineering-biased designer who likes to put all that theory and research into action.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks great, Todd. I agree about the use of helicoils in aluminium, better to do it first then when something has broken loose under power.

I even use helicoils in my wood projects as they are much more discrete then conventional woodwork type inserts.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I have a little more wind in my sails, I wanted to get started on the grille trim ring. I want to back up the fun I'm having with machining the powertrain parts with some aluminum casting.

The first step is laying out some of the basics, to figure out what methods we will be using. I want to combine hand modeling, CAD/CNC (ShopBot), and casting. I put the track nose on the table and started sketching on it to figure out some basic sizes and shapes, then decided to start modeling the mounts. I'm using plaster as a base, and will start modeling with clay tomorrow.








After I created the actual base, I used polymer modeling "clay" and more plaster to recreate the counterbore shape from the motor mount. The polymer works just like clay, but you can heat it into a hard plastic. I would have used it instead of plaster to create the counterbore, but I'm out of release flim, and nothing else would allow me to pull the counter bore plug out cleanly.

The sketch (blue) shows the basic cross section shapes of the counterbore, trim ring, and carbon fiber grille panel (from left to right). The grille panel will have my logo in a special recess, down near the bottom, and a few ribs extending out from it towards the bolts.

I went to the shop today to discuss processes, and so far it looks like lost foam, investment, casting will be the route.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After my heavy-handed self broke the plaster counterbore three times, determination set in to find a way to make one with the polymer. I didn't feel like a trip to a craft/art store, so I eventually figured out that packing tape's slippery external surface would do the trick.









In a matter of minutes it was ready for clay.









I've been working on it off and on through the day, and it's starting to take shape.









I love clay, second only to CAD. It's really peaceful. I had news on the TV in the other room, and listening to the wire tools pulling through the clay, and seeing forms evolve from a nearly shapeless mass, was kind of therapeutic. Good jazz in the background would have been the ultimate but I wanted to know what was going on in the rest of the world this time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Something I thought you guys might find as interesting and entertaining as I do:








I have been thinking about how I would transport the Inhaler the whole time I have been building it. The smallest "ecological footprint" would be to flat tow it (all four wheels on the ground), with a conventional tow bar, behind my daily driver (Honda Accord). I have pulled as much as a ton with it before. Under 1500lbs I can do 65-70 in 5th gear, even up mild grades, with no problems; and the fuel mileage is still at or better than 25mpg.

I was curious what it would look like, so I Photoshopped it.  It really made the Inhaler's diminutive size evident, and also sheds some light on how it can end up weighing around 1200lbs.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting towing idea, Todd, I was pondering the same sort of thing to tow my tractor.
It wouldn't be legal over here like that though.
We have a maximum 750kg or half the maximum gross mass of the towing vehicle. Any more and it needs over run brakes with auto reverse. That limits it to the bigger 4x4s rather then cars.

My tractor would be within weight for being unbraked but lacks suspension so I would need to build a cradle under, and just ahead of, the back wheels and then carry the front axle weight on the tow hook.
The trick would be to have sufficient balance to limit nose weight to 50kg max.

We can't even use towing dollies as it then counts as two trailers and can only be used by a recovery vehicle to move a break down to a place of safety.

I am trying to work out what you are clay modelling there, there isn't that bit on your previous rendering.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Interesting towing idea, Todd, I was pondering the same sort of thing to tow my tractor.
> It wouldn't be legal over here like that though.
> We have a maximum 750kg or half the maximum gross mass of the towing vehicle...


I would still be legal in England then. My car is 2700-2800lbs, and the Inhaler is supposed to be 1200lbs max.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I would need to build a cradle under, and just ahead of, the back wheels and then carry the front axle weight on the tow hook.
> The trick would be to have sufficient balance to limit nose weight to 50kg max...


I actually considered building an axle assembly that bolts to mounts on the Inhaler's frame to suspend it, at a point that balances it and gives me a decent tongue weight. My reason was to be able to cover the EV for bad weather travel (mainly winter salt, I don't care about it getting wet).

Man you guys have some stiff laws! I realize how much I take our fairly relaxed vehicle code and traffic laws for granted sometimes when I read what others have to deal with - especially here in Ohio, where I have a LOT of freedom. I still want to move though... 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I am trying to work out what you are clay modelling there, there isn't that bit on your previous rendering.


I was too lazy to do it on the rendering.  The Photoshop rendering of the finished truck is really way off, but it's close enough to get the point across. I had smashed it down so much when I was determined to make the body match the motor's size that there wasn't enough left to properly resize it, and I didn't see the need to start over again. It's still sectioned too much, making it too low.

The grille in the rendering is the actual grille that they sell for this track nose, with the center section blacked out. I was going to purchase it, and do that, but eventually decided to do my own thing. It's been in my head, as I am modeling it, for most of this year. I actually had a sketch that I meant to post months ago, but forgot about it and can't find it now.

Just another one of my 200-300 hour parts...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I would still be legal in England then. My car is 2700-2800lbs, and the Inhaler is supposed to be 1200lbs max.


You would still need to be able to reverse it around a corner so your drawbar would need to be able to steer the front wheels.



toddshotrods said:


> Just another one of my 200-300 hour parts...


At least you have the time to put into it.
I need to carry on rebuilding my house for a while and earn some money. That's in the wrong order but it is going to happen that way round!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You would still need to be able to reverse it around a corner so your drawbar would need to be able to steer the front wheels...


That's interesting.





Woodsmith said:


> ...At least you have the time to put into it.
> I need to carry on rebuilding my house for a while and earn some money. That's in the wrong order but it is going to happen that way round!


I sold my house and shop so all my concentration could go into my design business, which includes the Inhaler. I need to get the earning money thing together though. When I had the job I was okay financially, but too exhausted to do anything else. Now I have the time, but money will soon be an issue...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

How are you connecting the triple stacks, blower, and motor? 

Also, your "carefully implemented wretched excess" comment made me think of something I'm hoping to do - using copper bars instead of wires wherever possible (in your case probably polished). You could also make a really sexy custom controller.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Something I thought you guys might find as interesting and entertaining as I do:


Cool idea, very retro to 50 years ago...

I really wouldn't tow this, or any car I cared about, on its wheels, though. A used Sidekick behind a bus, maybe, but not this gorgeous hot rod.

So many cool show cars from the golden era were ruined in towing wrecks, from the Jade Idol to the Dream Truck, that anybody who remembers those days is sworn off of pulling cars around on their wheels. Its just an invitation to trouble.

Besides, this thing is so light that a really cool underslung single axle trailer made just for it would be way more practical, and actually use less energy on the road than dragging the car around on its wheels behind the tow vehicle.

You could also pretty easily lay up a 'glass cover and pan around it, making it air and water tight and 1000 times easier to live with on the show car circuit than dragging your baby along the greasy, bumpy ground rain or shine. That will get old after the first mud puddle, let alone a fresh tar bath or pothole.

That's what I'd do with an investment like this, anyway...

TomA


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I was thinking it must be possible to make capacitors (for controllers) sexier.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#History

Not nearly as efficient as modern capacitors, but an interesting place to start.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> How are you connecting the triple stacks, blower, and motor?...


Machined or cast parts. The stacks will mount on a part that combines the airflow and funnels it into the intake port of the blower. On the exit side another assmebly of parts will route the air directly into the comm end ports on the motor. The way the blower is positioned has the air exiting right behind them, so it's just a matter of gracefully bending the flow around and into the motor. When all assembled it will look like one part mounted to the motor case, no tubes and hoses.




Darxus said:


> ...(in your case probably polished)...


Actually no polishing allowed on this project. all these parts will be finished with beading, brushing, etc, for a satin-like sheen that makes it obvious what materials were used to create them, and also maximizes the efforts I went through to bend and twist light into people's eyes. Same guidelines for any plating processes. It's a race car built to be exhibited, not a show car built to be raced, if you get my drift.




Darxus said:


> ...You could also make a really sexy custom controller.


No need to re-invent the wheel, Tesseact and Q'er have done an awesome job with that already! The stars seem to be aligned for them to have the monster version ready around the time I would actually need it - not any time soon. All I have to concentrate on is displaying it properly. The controller, dc-to-dc, and charger, are going in the bed "under glass". I will likely have to design and machine or cast new covers for the dc-to-dc and charger to keep up with the rest of the vehicle and their controller though. I assure you the whole bed floor, mounting systems, cable routing, and "under glass" setup, will be sufficiently and wretchedly excessive enough!  It's all in my head, I just haven't gotten around to sketching or modeling it yet. I also have to wait on final dimensions of the big Soliton before going too far with any of that. I'm sure it's going to be a monster, and that makes me


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> Cool idea, very retro to 50 years ago...
> 
> I really wouldn't tow this, or any car I cared about, on its wheels, though. A used Sidekick behind a bus, maybe, but not this gorgeous hot rod.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom, and I am in 100% agreement with you. Actually Woody brought up the first point that made me reconsider this idea - backing up! Tow bars and dollies are a pain in the you-know-what when the need to reverse course comes up, and no matter how much you try to plan around it the need eventually comes up.

I'm planning on something pretty much like you described, a lightweight trailer made specifically for the Inhaler. A form-fitting composite cover wouldn't be too hard either, and would definitely save a lot of work keeping it nice. I don't plan on babying this truck, but there's also no sense in making extra work. That time spent cleaning road grime could be spent bending it around cones, and preaching its sustainable virtues "on the carpet"! 

I may actually be starting on the first phases of that trailer sometime soon. After the motor and body are mounted I plan to start taking it places, and I need a convenient way to make that an easy process.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> I was thinking it must be possible to make capacitors (for controllers) sexier.
> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#History
> 
> Not nearly as efficient as modern capacitors, but an interesting place to start.


Ideas like that have come up from time to time on this forum, but when it comes to the controller I need massive doses of consistent, reliable, power - that's spelled S-o-l-i-t-o-n in my book! I'm striking a careful balance between new and old and not letting either intefere with the vehicle's purpose and goals. I may do some old-world tube stuff on the instrumentation on the dash though; mainly because I plan to have a drop-down computer panel for the real critical stuff under it.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Playing with another option.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Actually no polishing allowed on this project. all these parts will be finished with beading, brushing, etc, for a satin-like sheen that makes it obvious what materials were used to create them...


I love this look. If you look at prewar Grand Prix cars, the castings were almost never polished. Indy cars, yes, but not The Europeans. To them, the surface finish was the sand caster's point of pride, and an indication of the quality and care with which these largely hand made parts were crafted. It also wasn't worth the time in a focused racing environment like Grand Prix racing during the Depression. To me there is nothing prettier than a very old beautifully made raw aluminum casting.

But- its a pain in the neck to maintain a brushed or beaded aluminum finish. You might consider clear anodizing these parts, (which my brother-in-law has been doing in a well-outfitted home shop for a couple of years now, with nice enough results for production aviation parts,) or alodining them if you don't mind the yellow tint.

Aluminum is so porous, and it oxidizes so fast, there just isn't an easy way, and matte clearcoating these serfaces isn't going to work very well, either...

If only there was a way to patinate aluminum to a relatively stable surface, like you can with copper and bronze, or etch it to a stable oxidized finish on it like you can do with many iron alloys. Another PITA aluminum "quality" and the reason so many people polish it with Zoops or even chrome it. I think most people actually don't like the dark oxidized surface raw aluminum weathers to, thinking it is old and dirty, which I suppose is sort of true. Its the quintessential Machine Age look, though... 

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah the down side of my favorite material - oxidation. I am planning to follow Eric's (the engineer/machinist), and now your, suggestion for clear anodizing. I actually even like that dark, dirty, aged look but preserving a mild sheen would be better for this project. I'll try to just make them look like new old stock. 

I have some pics of pre-war race cars that I use to guide me sometimes, when I am trying to strike the right balance between new and old. I needed them because I had been studying mainly newer street rods that were built to appear old. The problem is they usually load them with chrome on every visible metal part. Some of the traditional rods use bare cast aluminum, but don't have the aesthetic I was looking for. The vintage race cars are simply awesome.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Check out my tour of CAR, in Chit Chat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I've finally memorized every square millimeter of the rear motor mount (it's been in my office or design studio since it came off the machine) I figured it's finally time to start putting the vehicle together. Everything was on hold until the motor was in place, so everything could be properly located around it, and in support of it. I am following the (heavily paraphrased) Enzo Ferrari philosophy of the rest of the vehicle being a nice way to package my motor.








I forgot to pick up some short socket head bolts for snugging it up to the motor, until I order the 12pt bolts. After it's bolted up, and I determine the right orientation for proper u-joint phasing, I have to fabricate a little drill jig that will allow me to run a long bit straight thru to other side of the crossmember. Basically just a sleeve that fits tightly in the outer mounting holes, and has an inner bore for a small pilot bit.

I also found out my DE (< thanks JRP3  ) cap wasn't really round.  I thought I just had to grind off a few bumps to get the mount to slide on. I wet through three 1/2" dia. sanding drums, and about half of a 1/2" dia. stone, to get the mount to fit! (I didn't have any larger drums handy, and didn't feel like stopping to go to the store) I left it a little tight so I can go back and work on it again to get a uniform gap for powder coat clearance later.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It is really easy to see your vision from that photo, makes such a change from CAD renderings. Looks good.

Nice clean work space too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I also found out my CE cap wasn't really round.


Don't you mean, DE, Drive End?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It is really easy to see your vision from that photo, makes such a change from CAD renderings. Looks good...


Thanks Woody.  I forget sometimes that everyone doesn't see in CAD renderings what I do. I see the finished product in the CAD rendering, that I saw in my noggin when I started modeling it. Makes it challenging sometimes to find the motivation to work on the real thing, because it's "done" to me when I see it in CAD.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Don't you mean, DE, Drive End?


 Yup, I fixed it in my post.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Nice clean work space too.


The floor is. I gotta get some more tubs, and also get rid of some stuff. I don't like how much stuff is collecting around the walls. It's not bad but I want it to be better...


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## hardwired (Sep 11, 2007)

Nice to see it coming together, keep up the awesome work!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks hardwired.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ...all these parts will be finished with beading, brushing, etc, for a satin-like sheen...Same guidelines for any plating processes....


Well... hmmm... oddly enough, we had an enclosure nickel plated yesterday and we all think it looks pretty f'in awesome compared to the clear anodizing we are currently stuck with. I'll post pics later today. Of course, the even bigger version of the Soliton1 (Soliton2? Soliton2.5?) will only be machined out of billet, so the anodizing dyes will work fine on it, but I still have to say that the nickel plating is _nice!_



toddshotrods said:


> No need to re-invent the wheel, Tesseact and Q'er have done an awesome job with that already! The stars seem to be aligned for them to have the monster version ready around the time I would actually need it - not any time soon.
> ...
> I also have to wait on final dimensions of the big Soliton before going too far with any of that. I'm sure it's going to be a monster, and that makes me


Aw, thanks for the kind words! The Soliton1 was a real hit at Power of DC. A lot of skeptical Zilla-fans in that crowd, but I think we won over quite a few of them!

And now a more practical question... how do you plan on maintaining traction with just 1200lbs of vehicle weight and more than 1000A feeding that big bad 13" motor?!? Or is the plan to simply burn rubber until the tires catch fire???  

At any rate, we've received several logs from drag racers running the Z2k for the purpose of seeing just how powerful to make our racing version of the Soliton1. I know many like you would say "the bigger the better" but we are under no illusion the Soliton2.x will ever be profitable and these IGBT modules start climbing in price exponentially as you go up in amperage because there is so little demand for them, and none in the 600V rating (ie - we have to use 1200V modules which have a much higher voltage drop and are invariably slower - so, the switching frequency has to drop from ~8khz maybe down to 6khz). Of course, with a drag racer a little bit of controller whine would soon be drowned out by the shrieking of the tires, gears, etc...

Anyway, two things in these Z2K logs that jumped right out at us are that motor current varies 400A eek from sample to sample (0.1s intervals) and that while the peak current often hit 1900-2000A, the average current with full throttle and no limits prevailing (e.g., battery current below limit, duty cycle below 100%, etc.) seems be 1500-1700A over most of each run. There are two possible reasons for this: the Zilla is trying to regulate peak current rather than average and/or it is very difficult to get that much current out of the battery pack except at very low duty cycles regardless of how powerful the controller is.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Well... hmmm... oddly enough, we had an enclosure nickel plated yesterday and we all think it looks pretty f'in awesome compared to the clear anodizing we are currently stuck with. I'll post pics later today. Of course, the even bigger version of the Soliton1 (Soliton2? Soliton2.5?) will only be machined out of billet, so the anodizing dyes will work fine on it, but I still have to say that the nickel plating is _nice!_...


I think I am going do nickel on my bolts. Electroless nickel plating looks interesting, but I haven't done any serious research on it yet.





Tesseract said:


> ...Aw, thanks for the kind words! The Soliton1 was a real hit at Power of DC. A lot of skeptical Zilla-fans in that crowd, but I think we won over quite a few of them!
> 
> And now a more practical question... how do you plan on maintaining traction with just 1200lbs of vehicle weight and more than 1000A feeding that big bad 13" motor?!? Or is the plan to simply burn rubber until the tires catch fire???  ...


All compliments and comments are sincere - I am really impressed with the work you guys have done on the Soliton.

11" motor.  Purpose built chassis, eventually a set of sticky-soft wrinkle walls (only at the drag strip), and a really quick right foot - drag racers should now be seeing and hearing a soot-covered John Force saying, "That old heap got sideways on me and I had to pedallit...!" Traction control might be nice (hint, hint...) but would probably take the fun out of it for adrenaline junkies like me. If you do, please put an on-off switch on it! 

Seriously though, if I did my homework my chassis has enough adjusment to allow me to dial in sufficent weight transfer that, with a set of wrinkle-walls, I should be able to get it off the line and down the track pretty good. I raced street-legal dragbikes, so finding the balance between wheelspin and wheelie is natural.





Tesseract said:


> ...At any rate, we've received several logs from drag racers running the Z2k for the purpose of seeing just how powerful to make our racing version of the Soliton1. I know many like you would say "the bigger the better" but we are under no illusion the Soliton2.x will ever be profitable and these IGBT modules start climbing in price exponentially as you go up in amperage because there is so little demand for them, and none in the 600V rating (ie - we have to use 1200V modules which have a much higher voltage drop and are invariably slower - so, the switching frequency has to drop from ~8khz maybe down to 6khz). Of course, with a drag racer a little bit of controller whine would soon be drowned out by the shrieking of the tires, gears, etc...
> 
> Anyway, two things in these Z2K logs that jumped right out at us are that motor current varies 400A eek from sample to sample (0.1s intervals) and that while the peak current often hit 1900-2000A, the average current with full throttle and no limits prevailing (e.g., battery current below limit, duty cycle below 100%, etc.) seems be 1500-1700A over most of each run. There are two possible reasons for this: the Zilla is trying to regulate peak current rather than average and/or it is very difficult to get that much current out of the battery pack except at very low duty cycles regardless of how powerful the controller is.


Are any of those guys running purpose-built chassis? Any have data logging systems on the chassis? Just curious how much traction and chassis are playing into those numbers. It would be nice if you had logs from KillaCycle to compare. Something where the chassis and batteries are eliminated as much as possible. The problem with designing a max race controller for street cars that race, is there will be too many variables. You need consistent feedback...

How long were the 1900-2000A peaks, and where in the run did they occur? From a racer's perspective, even if the peak was only experienced for a fraction of a second that fraction could have been the difference between winning and losing. If so, whatever they cost is of being able to deliver it, it's worth it. With direct-drive, the ability to deliver that massive dose of current, if only for the proverbial blink of an eye, is critical.

I have so much on my plate right now that I still haven't had time to really learn all this yet, but I need to. I want to be able to communicate more effectively with you guys, and whoever builds my motor. I know what I am seeing and what I need, but I can't communicate it. When the Inhaler is finally operational, and I can begin the performance journey, I hope to also have a better grasp of electric propulsion and the language of it.

Two final points:

One, I could care less about a little noise (whine) - as long as it's a by-product of massive delivery.  I think that would be a common sentiment with serious racers.

Two, I am going to be bending this thing around cones as aggresively as I will be pointing it towards the other end of a drag strip. I guess the point for me, is responsiveness. Even more than at the dragstrip, my right foot will be very busy modulating power delivery.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if the current version of the Soliton will already deliver more power than your motor can handle?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I told Eric just push the button on the front mount whenever he wanted, because I wasn't going to worry about pictures and videos on it. It turns out, he's right in sync with my efforts to get the motor in the car, from the other side of the city. I got an email with these pics today. The first side of the front mount is done!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I wonder if the current version of the Soliton will already deliver more power than your motor can handle?


Nope. What my motor is now, is not what it will be. If for some reason I find it's mechanical limits with Big Sol, I will replace it with something that can go further. I don't plan to stop until I find _my_ limits.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> 11" motor.  Purpose built chassis, eventually a set of sticky-soft wrinkle walls (only at the drag strip), and a really quick right foot - drag racers should now be seeing and hearing a soot-covered John Force saying, "That old heap got sideways on me and I had to pedallit...!" Traction control might be nice (hint, hint...) but would probably take the fun out of it for adrenaline junkies like me. If you do, please put an on-off switch on it!


The Soliton1 already has a form of traction control in that you can set the rate at which the motor current increase upon application of full throttle. The ramp rate range can be set in 100A/s increments starting at 100A/s (1000A in 10s), which is glacially slow (excellent for very slippery conditions, though) to 25kA/s (1000A in 40ms) which pretty much just instantly breaks stuff. (We will likely be reducing the maximum ramp rate to 10kA/s because hitting 1000A in 0.1s is brutal enough, but for now you can still be 2.5x more brutal!)

But what I was getting at earlier was not so much whether your chassis and motor could handle the Soliton1 (or 2, etc...) but whether you can deliver enough _tractive effort_ given the light weight of the vehicle! 

That is, you can't accelerate any faster than the amount of weight pressing down on the tire contact patch area times their coefficient of friction will let you. Here's a really good page that covers it in more detail than my handwaving here: http://autopedia.com/stuttgart-west/Physics/StuttPhysics07.html



toddshotrods said:


> Seriously though, if I did my homework my chassis has enough adjusment to allow me to dial in sufficent weight transfer that, with a set of wrinkle-walls, I should be able to get it off the line and down the track pretty good. I raced street-legal dragbikes, so finding the balance between wheelspin and wheelie is natural.


I don't doubt you know exactly what you are doing - that's fairly evident from the work you've shown us, not to mention what you've written! I, suspect, however, that you have no idea what it is like to drive something where _peak_ torque is available at 0 rpm... 



toddshotrods said:


> Are any of those guys running purpose-built chassis? Any have data logging systems on the chassis? Just curious how much traction and chassis are playing into those numbers. It would be nice if you had logs from KillaCycle to compare....


Sadly, every person that sent me logs from their Z2K also asked that I not reveal who they are or any details about their setups... them drag racers are a competitive lot, apparently... 

That said, I haven't received logs from many of the more (in)famous characters. If I didn't know better I'd think they were more interested in protecting the Zilla hegemony rather than shaving time off their runs!?! 



toddshotrods said:


> How long were the 1900-2000A peaks, and where in the run did they occur?


Probably easier to just post a graph, but essentially the 2000A peaks only occurred for single 0.1s intervals, with 300-400A of difference from one sample interval to the next. 



toddshotrods said:


> One, I could care less about a little noise (whine) - as long as it's a by-product of massive delivery.  I think that would be a common sentiment with serious racers.
> 
> Two, I am going to be bending this thing around cones as aggresively as I will be pointing it towards the other end of a drag strip. I guess the point for me, is responsiveness. Even more than at the dragstrip, my right foot will be very busy modulating power delivery.


I figured any serious racer wouldn't care if the controller whined a little - as long it delivered the goods - but I have ways of mitigating that anyway (and Qer does, too). One way is by interleaving n number of IGBTs so that they take turns conducting, starting to overlap when the duty cycle exceeds 1/n. This requires a certain amount of inductance in series with each IGBT, which is hard to come by at the 500A+ level, but the benefits of doing this are extremely compelling...

As far as responsiveness, well... we already have that in spades! 

Anyway, the Inhaler is precisely the sort of project we'd like to be involved with right now as we try to convince the rest of the performance EV world there is something out there besides the green dinosaur


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> ...with a drag racer a little bit of controller whine would soon be drowned out by the shrieking of the tires, gears, etc...


I suspect electric motorsports would benefit from more noise. CVTs and turbine engines were banned from F1 racing because they eliminated the entertaining sound of shifting. Don't add noise just for the sake of noise of course, but it might be good to try less hard to avoid noise. You could consider trying to make the noise more pleasant (like tuning an exhaust).

(This based partially on watching some of TTXGP.)

Also, more sparks


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...but whether you can deliver enough _tractive effort_ given the light weight of the vehicle!
> 
> That is, you can't accelerate any faster than the amount of weight pressing down on the tire contact patch area times their coefficient of friction will let you...


I'm well aware of all that. I am going to dig into that link though, as soon as my day levels off - so much going on today - big fun!

That's all just drag racing. Serious wrinkle wall slicks give a (comparatively) massive contact patch. You have this wide, long, sticky, rubber contact patch that remains planted because the rim gets a little rotation (hence the name wrinkle (side)wall) before the tire begins to turn. That's the first manipulation of the equation...

Next, when I say weight transfer - I mean transfer! A part of the point of my street rod style is everything is easily accessible because there is no body covering it. That means swapping components is a snap. So, for drag racing, a set of 90/10 valved coil-overs can be popped on up front allowing the front suspension to completely unwind, transferring weight to the back tires (rear suspension also tuned for transfer). Basically soft rebound and high compression damping up front, and the opposite in back, to allow it to extend fast and settle back down slowly. In fastest-street-car style racing you will also see them pull the front wheels pretty far off the track - more effective weight on the rear tires. The trick is finding the balance that gives you the traction to get moving, without wasting too much energy that should be going directly into forward motion. Some of the old muscle cars have been known to touch the rear bumper on the track! That's a little excessive but it's them in search of that balance.

It's performance art, and when you get your $h!# together it's a beautiful dance... 




Tesseract said:


> ...I don't doubt you know exactly what you are doing - that's fairly evident from the work you've shown us, not to mention what you've written! I, suspect, however, that you have no idea what it is like to drive something where _peak_ torque is available at 0 rpm... ...


Yes, and no. The beauty of electric for me is that torque is there from 0. What we did to simulate that is drop the clutch at an insane rpm. So we were still in the meat of the torque band. I would guess that the e-motor torque will be more brutal, but I am always game for upping the ante. 





Tesseract said:


> ...As far as responsiveness, well... we already have that in spades!...








Tesseract said:


> ...Anyway, the Inhaler is precisely the sort of project we'd like to be involved with right now as we try to convince the rest of the performance EV world there is something out there besides the green dinosaur


Thanks!  I just hope I can be ready in time to be of service to you guys. I have sooooo much to do! I have a mountain load of work to do on this project just to be ready for testing, let alone racing. Then, I have this growing list of software and hardware building to really get my design services on track... I was reading in the Soliton 1 thread where you mentioned the software needed to do the AC version, and trying to determine whether the market will support the investment in new equipment, technology, products - familiar story...

These disccusions help though, because it gets a little adrenaline flow started in me just thinking about how much fun this will be! Any data I log will be freely shared. Since this is a marketing tool for me, I stand to gain more by helping someone beat me than holding back so I can cross the line first. That being said, I won't go down without a fight! 

There's so much mroe I wanted to respond to but this thread is already a mile long (mainly because of my excessive babbling) so I will just suffice it and say - everything sounds great!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> ...make the noise more pleasant (like tuning an exhaust)...


^^^ What he said...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Anyway, two things in these Z2K logs that jumped right out at us are that motor current varies 400A eek from sample to sample (0.1s intervals) and that while the peak current often hit 1900-2000A, the average current with full throttle and no limits prevailing (e.g., battery current below limit, duty cycle below 100%, etc.) seems be 1500-1700A over most of each run. There are two possible reasons for this: the Zilla is trying to regulate peak current rather than average and/or it is very difficult to get that much current out of the battery pack except at very low duty cycles regardless of how powerful the controller is.


I need to see those graphs.

Doing what I do, I can't help wondering how many other variables could be relevant.

You don't see anything like that in logs of your own controllers? Are you sure it's not just a bug in the Zilla? Or in your logger? Is there only one logger you're using, or is it showing up with multiple different loggers? Did you make the logger or buy it? If you bought it, what does the manufacturer say? Any chance you're getting some kind of race condition / time stamp rounding error causing the spikes? I don't suppose you have correlated logs of drive wheel RPMs? Are there any weird dips similar to the spikes? I once came across a rounding error where there were regular spikes and dips because time was recorded in eighths of a second and then converted to tenths or something weird like that.

Does it matter what the reason is for the Zilla's spikes?

It seems like in drag racing the controller would only be useful for the first second or two to avoid completely blowing traction, and then it would be better to switch to a full controller bypass?

Are the spikes during initial acceleration before full throttle, or after they hit full throttle?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It is really easy to see your vision from that photo, makes such a change from CAD renderings...


Since that photo seemed to help, I took another with the plastic blower housing mocked up on the motor, to see if it would help show how the forced-air system fills the gap between motor and hood line; and that it doesn't dominate the motor, but complements it. At least that's how I see it!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Darxus said:


> I need to see those graphs.


Sure, here's a sneak preview:










This is not at full power, the target current drops from about 1900 to 1700 Amps due to overtemp (bad cooling, not the Zillas fault), but all logs I've seen looks pretty similar. You can for example see it in the graph on plasmaboyracings homepage too:










So it seems to be consistent.



Darxus said:


> Doing what I do, I can't help wondering how many other variables could be relevant.


Well, as far as I can tell nothing external seems to cause this, but this is all based on examining the logs. Throttle is pinned, and typically the reason seems to be the PWM not being stable which is then amplified by the back emf in the motor working as a threshold and then the current variation of course spread to everything else.



Darxus said:


> You don't see anything like that in logs of your own controllers?


Nope. See the Soliton thread, there's loads of graphs there. For example this extreme closeup of current regulation:












Darxus said:


> Are you sure it's not just a bug in the Zilla? Or in your logger?


The Zilla is the logger and I've got logs from several Zillas.



Darxus said:


> Any chance you're getting some kind of race condition / time stamp rounding error causing the spikes?


Good question. Not a clue since I don't have the source code.



Darxus said:


> I don't suppose you have correlated logs of drive wheel RPMs?


In at least one case I do. The RPM is fairly stable.



Darxus said:


> It seems like in drag racing the controller would only be useful for the first second or two to avoid completely blowing traction, and then it would be better to switch to a full controller bypass?


It's been tested on the White Zombie. They abandoned the idea after the contactor locked up and the car went ballistic until they pulled the emergency breaker...



Darxus said:


> Are the spikes during initial acceleration before full throttle, or after they hit full throttle?


Full throttle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally seeing the motor sitting between the frame rails, accompanied by the one of my custom parts, has helped me get my focus back. The whole point of this project is to market my design services, by providing a platform for me to display some of my parts. As much as I want to take that first ride, what's really important is that I am able to use it for marketing - ASAP! That means it needs to look like the rendering.

The plan is to get the motor mounted, get the bodywork mounted, get the roof on it, and get a trailer under it, so I can start taking it to events - like fishguts has been able to do with Voltsrat. Pictures on the internet are nice but nothing works like being there interacting with potential customers face-to-face.

While Eric works on machining the front mount, and I think through the actual motor positioning (before poking holes in the crossmember), I wanted to get the track nose in the picture. I want to see as many of the parts that will be around the motor in place as possible, before I lock it down. The track nose has just been sitting in front of the chassis, up to this point, because it has to be trimmed to clear the front crossmember and steering rack. To do this I created a 3-dimensional pattern.









It's basically just paper mache, but with cheese cloth instead of paper - cheese mache? It's lumpy and bumpy on the outside, but a perfect fit on the inside. That allows me to slip it back over the track nose, after it's trimmed to fit the car, and perfectly mark and cut the real track nose; eliminating the guessing games.

The marks are for alignment. Just line up the crosshairs and take your shot. There are two more: one on the bottom, and one on the other side.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The track nose is ready to be trimmed.











Here's a shot of the cheese mache nose mocked up on the truck, with the Woodlites, motor, and plastic blower housing.











Someday, the inside of the track nose will be filled with double-adjustable coil-overs. It'll be hinged from the bottom to flip forward for tuning/swapping them. The crossmember that the front motor mount bolts to will also be the anti-sway bar tunnel, actually passing it through the frame rails; hiding it in plain sight.









Yes, that is the front motor mount you see. It's not finished - just doing a quick test-fit. 

Under the motor will be the front section of the carbon-Kevlar belly pan. It will be a foam core part, with carbon fiber tubes inside that feed the power cables from the frame to the motor terminals (which are about 10-15 degrees up from the bottom); completely concealing them. It will also be sculptured to kind of cradle the motor and fade away in successively smaller ripples as they travel out towards the frame rails. Beyond the artistic component, they serve a functional purpose, in making the belly pan more rigid.

All these little details are why it took so long to get to this point. Disguising an all-out race car as a funky little street rod pickup is a nice challenge. The decision to go fenderless multiplied that by ten, because there was no easy way to conceal all the necessary components. As designer, this has been an awesome experience.

Coming up next, more progress on the forced-air model. It looks like I am going to have 200-300 hours in CAD design alone! I still haven't figured out whether it's going to be machined or cast.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Cool. I'm looking forward to more detailed modelling or mockup of your air intake.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> Cool. I'm looking forward to more detailed modelling or mockup of your air intake.


I'm trying to make myself take a break today, but I'm itching to get back in there (CAD software). I worked on it for no less than 12 hours yesterday. I think it was actually more because I sleep six hours a night, and I can't think of anything else I did that would have amounted to the six remaining hours.

Watching F1 right now, letting that sound permeate my brain. The goal is to achieve a similar tearing of space/time fabric, with the Inhaler - hopefully. I need to consult with Eric about how thin we can machine the stacks. I have them modeled at .0625" wall thickness now, but would love to take that down to .03125" or {{{evil grin}}} even better - .020"!  Of course, it would be funny if I did all this and my theory about what sounds I'm mechanically amplifiying is wrong, and it sounded like a blender full of ball bearings! 

In all this talk of auditory sensation, I think it's a good idea to re-establish the fact that the forced-air unit is really there to keep the motor cool. It's a glorified blower that I realized I could use to accomplish other things with. The more I thought about/toyed with the idea, the more I realized how much potential it had. Eventually its scope crept into being the centerpiece of my project. Like a floral arrangement in the center of the dinner table, it's not worth a whole lot on its own, but it sets the mood...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> The goal is to achieve a similar tearing of space/time fabric....


..........


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)




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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Edit: Sorry, sorry. Just had to... I'll be nice, T. Promise.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Todd won't be happy with us


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Do we get to vote on these national instruments of musical torture?

Dawid


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

With the scale of forced air cooling you're doing, it might make sense to use that for your controller as well, instead of water cooling.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I need to consult with Eric about how thin we can machine the stacks. I have them modeled at .0625" wall thickness now, but would love to take that down to .03125" or {{{evil grin}}} even better - .020"!


Going that thin you may want to check out spin forming or hydraulic/explosive forming.

Of course your tuning may depend on materials, think sound of brass horn verses silver


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Going that thin you may want to check out spin forming or hydraulic/explosive forming.
> 
> Of course your tuning may depend on materials, think sound of brass horn verses silver


They will be spun, from .040" copper sheet. They should end up around .020-.030" by the time they're finished. A local company here will most likely be doing the spinning, with my CAD/CNC aluminum forms. Off the cuff, ballpark, figure is around $150 each. That price would make me happy. I'll have a couple hundred more in the forms.

Figuratively, I had to pull over, set the parking brake, and walk away from this project for a little bit to assess my progress so far, and check my focus. Some things have went well, but there is a lot that I am not satisfied with. While I absolutely love what I have sitting in the garage, I am not so happy with some of the compromises that were beginning to take place. Things will probably still move a little slowly for a bit, as I regroup and re-plot. Being back around millionaire hot rod enthusiasts, and the shops that serve them, this month at the Goodguys show helped.

Here the latest update to the rendering - Forgeline ZX3P wheels; 18x7" up front, and 19x10-11" in back - about $4500 for the rims. That's pretty good for forged wheels. I think they have a slight resemblance to the original T wheels. The sizes will allow me to run my choice of DOT race tires, or real street tires, and fit massive brakes. Planning ahead for the likelihood of not having engine braking (regen), I want brakes big enough to go barreling down a twisty mountain road and not fade before reaching the bottom. At 1200lbs it probably won't take as much as I am allowing for, but I would rather be safe than sorry with this issue. 









Just nailing down some of the details, while I regroup. I think my next goals are going to be to put all the parts I have together and make it look like a truck, then make it run on 48 volts of lead. That puts the project back in my hands, while I figure out the details on realizing some of my more "involved" parts and systems. It'll also allow me to start developing a baseline for what I need in a race motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Removable fenders and running boards, like on the original, would be cool.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's always an option but not really on my radar screen right now. The advantage for me is I can use them to give the illusion that it's even lower than it is. The disadvantage (that keeps them off the radar) is they add weight and/or cost. The best alternative, vacuum-bagged carbon fiber/Kevlar composite, adds little weight but huge cost. Maybe something to add a new dimension after a couple years of show-n-go.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I would actually be more concerned with aero drag and keeping the fenders on the car. I do wonder if these guy's can stamp out a set in Al. for you.....

http://www.rootlieb.com/html_files/mt_fend/mt_fend.html

They also have special fenders for speedsters...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Fenders shmenders - I'm leaving my wheels out in the atmosphere for the foreseeable future. 

The only part that's on this thing, or in the plans, right now that doesn't contribute to going faster is the grille trim ring and insert. The trim ring is actually going to screw up the aero over the track nose, but it's a necessary evil. Everything else on the truck is about performance. Even that carbon fiber roof is there to conceal a full cage - to allow me to go fast safely, and on sanctioned tracks.

If you really look at it, and think about what you're seeing, it's an all-out race car. It's a purpose-built chassis, with a minimalist powertrain, and a few pieces of composite "skin" to give the illusion that it's a truck. Think about NASCAR stock cars, Pro-Stock drag cars, etc, - same basic ideology. There are no creature comforts, no extras, just a skinned race car. I just put a lot of time into designing the skin so that people (hopefully) see a cozy, comfy, elegant?, little truck - it's a lie!!! The thing is a flesh-eating monster! It's the big bad wolf in grandma's nightgown!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's cool.
You probably have laws over there that allows for running without fenders as well as no suspension on trailers.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's cool.
> You probably have laws over there that allows for running without fenders as well as no suspension on trailers.


Yup. In Ohio, you basically need lights, DOT tires, horn, wipers, exhaust, etc, and you can drive, drive, drive. Notice I didn't mention seatbelts, and general safety equipment? If it didn't come on it, it doesn't have to be on it. They're trying to pass a here law now so that specialty vehicles (like the Inhaler) can be registered as the vehicle they look like. I'm hoping it passes because I really want it to be registered as a 1923 Ford Model T pickup, not a 2010-11 specialty car.

Many states here allow street rods and dune buggies to run fenderless. While I am enjoying the freedom of the Ohio Revised Code, I have one eye on California - my dream destination - to make sure I don't have to jump through too many hoops to move there. I think being initially registered here as a 1923 Ford would help...


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Yup. In Ohio, you basically need lights, DOT tires, horn, wipers, exhaust, etc, and you can drive, drive, drive. Notice I didn't mention seatbelts, and general safety equipment? If it didn't come on it, it doesn't have to be on it. They're trying to pass a here law now so that specialty vehicles (like the Inhaler) can be registered as the vehicle they look like. I'm hoping it passes because I really want it to be registered as a 1923 Ford Model T pickup, not a 2010-11 specialty car.
> 
> Many states here allow street rods and dune buggies to run fenderless. While I am enjoying the freedom of the Ohio Revised Code, I have one eye on California - my dream destination - to make sure I don't have to jump through too many hoops to move there. I think being initially registered here as a 1923 Ford would help...


You can only register it as a 1923 Ford if you actually started with a 1923 Ford. If it's a kit (or something that you fabricated from pieces), it will register as the year model that you first get it licensed. If you've got a title or proof that a major component was first licensed in 1923, then you should be OK.

Fenders are not required in California under certain weight limits, IIRC that limit is around 1400 pounds, but that's a vague recollection from more than 20 years ago.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ewdysar said:


> You can only register it as a 1923 Ford if you actually started with a 1923 Ford. If it's a kit (or something that you fabricated from pieces), it will register as the year model that you first get it licensed. If you've got a title or proof that a major component was first licensed in 1923, then you should be OK...


Thanks for the info. What if I already have an Ohio title that says it's a 1923 Ford, and then move there? Are you saying they will bounce me back up to 2010-11? As far as I know, the Ohio law being considered would give me a title saying it's a 1923 Ford, not a specialty car that looks like a 23. I'll do some additional research on that though. I'm really still hoping it gets passed by the time I'm ready to register.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks for the info. What if I already have an Ohio title that says it's a 1923 Ford, and then move there? Are you saying they will bounce me back up to 2010-11? As far as I know, the Ohio law being considered would give me a title saying it's a 1923 Ford, not a specialty car that looks like a 23. I'll do some additional research on that though. I'm really still hoping it gets passed by the time I'm ready to register.


If your paperwork says 1923, that should make past the paperwork monkeys in the California state bureaucracy. It's not like they have any idea what their looking at. "Year model says < 1976? Stamp approved." 

Eric


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ewdysar said:


> If your paperwork says 1923, that should make past the paperwork monkeys in the California state bureaucracy. It's not like they have any idea what their looking at. "Year model says < 1976? Stamp approved."
> 
> Eric


Superbad!  Now I just need Ohio to get this law passed before I get rich enough to move there! 

Thanks for the info...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

In California there are a limited number of new registrations each year that base the vehicles model year on what it most looks like. You do not need one original part on the car. And they are looking at increasing that number.

From the Ca Vehicle code http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vc.htm

27600. No person shall operate any motor vehicle having three or more wheels, any trailer, or semitrailer unless equipped with fenders, covers, or devices, including flaps or splash aprons, or unless the body of the vehicle or attachments thereto afford adequate protection to effectively minimize the spray or splash of water or mud to the rear of the vehicle and all such equipment or such body or attachments thereto shall be at least as wide as the tire tread. This section does not apply to those vehicles exempt from registration, trailers and semitrailers having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds, or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds. 
Amended Ch. 215, Stats. 1970. Effective November 23, 1970. 


Now the officer may still give you a ticket for creating unsafe conditions if you have a rooster tail that is drowning out the guy behind you. But that's an issue with the officer not the car.

Are you going to make it out to SEMA in Vegas this year?


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

manufactured AND first registered prior to January 1, 1971


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> In California there are a limited number of new registrations each year that base the vehicles model year on what it most looks like. You do not need one original part on the car. And they are looking at increasing that number...


Yeah, I remember seeing that before, on another forum.




MJ Monterey said:


> ...or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds...





glaurung said:


> manufactured AND first registered prior to January 1, 1971


I think that will all work out to my favor - IF - Ohio gets this law passed. I will have a 1923 Ford title. As pointed out, it's doubtful that they will investigate and dispute that. I wouldn't be looking for a new registration, just moving there with my "old car". I'm probably getting ready to sign another year lease somewhere in Columbus, so that would push a move to late 2011 at the earliest. Might be 2012, 2013? I just know what direction to start driving... 





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Are you going to make it out to SEMA in Vegas this year?


It was in my plans, but things are moving so slowly here, and I am burning through funds so fast, I'm not sure now. I had planned to have vendor spots at the Goodguys show here and SEMA this year, but decided to hold off on that. I just don't have enough ready (with the vehicle or business) to create the impression I want people to have.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

You may want to consider going as a Buyer so that you can have the experience and make contacts.

A 10 page booklet that you can show or pass to potential suppliers may generate sponsorship interest, or business opportunities. You may even find a cool product that needs a package redisign that you can work to your mutual benefit.

Bring your walking shoes though. If you walk it all, it's over 20 miles.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> You may want to consider going as a Buyer so that you can have the experience and make contacts.
> 
> A 10 page booklet that you can show or pass to potential suppliers may generate sponsorship interest, or business opportunities. You may even find a cool product that needs a package redisign that you can work to your mutual benefit.
> 
> Bring your walking shoes though. If you walk it all, it's over 20 miles.


Yeah, it would definitely be as a buyer. The vendor displays were a goal, that went out the window before spring got here. What I am debating with myself about concerning going as a buyer is that really means being a seller (in my case), and pounding the concrete is not my kind of selling. I generally let my work sell itself, and that works best when I can put it on display. Then I can concentrate on closing deals. I sell the way I buy, which is leave me alone and I will call you when I need more info/get ready to buy. I hate sales pitches. I love the vendors at Goodguys because they'll usually just talk cars with you, and answer your questions, until you let them know you're serious and ready to move on something.

A second option, which I had considered with Goodguys, is to make a deal with a vendor that's going to be there and put the Inhaler in their display. It's a natural win-win because I don't aggresively sell myself, so I wouldn't intrude on their space/opportunities. I relaxed my pace on the truck though, and I'm not sure I want to thrash to make it this year. There were a couple companies at Goodguys that would be a natural fit, but I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to commit. The benefit for them, of course, is hanging a couple of their parts on my truck would potentially draw people into the booth.

I might just lay low and start working towards 2011. Not sure yet.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

ewdysar said:


> If your paperwork says 1923, that should make past the paperwork monkeys in the California state bureaucracy. It's not like they have any idea what their looking at. "Year model says < 1976? Stamp approved."
> 
> Eric


I spent almost a year trying to get my '64 Spitfire registered with its original black and gold plates from '64 here in California. I had the plates and the original registration from 1964 with the matching license plate number. They kicked the registration back to me 3 times with added hoops to jump through each time. The turnaround was 3 months for each of those. The only number they provided to call with questions never worked. Some days it would be busy, other days it would ring and ring with no voice mail to vent into. If I drove down to the local DMV they would shrug, tell me to call the number, or just get confused and try to register me with new plates! Luckily I was able to drive it in the meantime. But, sheesh, what a pain! Of course, I'm sure it depends on which paper pusher's desk the registration lands on.

On the other hand, the "electric conversion" portion of the registration was no more than an inspectors glance and a ticked box on a form.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After enjoying the incredible freedom of building and owning custom vehicles in Ohio, registration and inspection are a couple of the things I am not looking forward to there. The others are smog and cost of living, but the ocean, the palm trees, and the weather, and the culture, are calling me.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

The weather makes the DMV issues much more bearable.

California will welcome you and your smog free vehicle with open arms!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Speaking of the weather, Before you commit to a general region, check out that area's weather.

At 9:00 a.m. Pasadena is looking at 70 with a high about 90

400 miles north in Salinas....

.... it's 55 overcast/foggy (condensation coming off the eve's) with a projected high in the mid 60's. But it warms up and dries out in a hurry as you get further from the coast.

Pick your micro-climate with some care.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Speaking of the weather, Before you commit to a general region, check out that area's weather.
> 
> At 9:00 a.m. Pasadena is looking at 70 with a high about 90
> 
> ...


No question there - I want Southern Cali. I love heat. 55 with a high in the mid 60's is cold to me. I don't even use my AC at home unless it gets close to 100, and the compressor in the car doesn't have a belt on it. Ironically, 70 with a high about 90 is about what our weather has been here this whole month - comfy . It just changes dramatically in about four mounths. About six months ago it was in the 20s {{{shudders}}}. Eventually, I am going to start planning a series of visits there that will hopefully get progressively longer, until I am visiting _here_ occasionally.

I'm learning a lot here to help me understand better what to expect from different type of city lifestyles. I'm in a pretty clean, safe, sporadically quiet/noisy, 400+ unit apartment complex. They're reasonably spaced out, and there is a decent amount of green space, but it's still too congested for my tastes. The next apartment I have my eye on is more condo-like, with only two units in each building, attached single and double car garages, and a neighborhood style layout. I actually like my two-level townhome better than the ranch style of those places, but would rather not have so many people stuck up my arse.

From what I've heard (from people who live/lived there) that is going to be an (incredibly expensive) issue out there.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

One area for you to check out would be San Luis Obispo. Far enogh south so that it does warm up. Far enough out of L.A. basin to eliminate a bunch of the metro B.S. yet close enough for an occasional run to the big city.

The Cal State University there has STRONG science, engineering and design programs. Which may give you the opportunity to tap into their infrastructure and support businesses.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The e-bike project is officially dead (shipped the motor out today), bringing my focus back on the Inhaler and my driver. The e-bike served its purpose though as it helped me eliminate the "compromise" mentality and step up my game. I still have to figure out what to do with the Benelli frame, and I have a Toyota Celica differential that I bought for a future street rod project...  I also have all those billet parts that were moved to the e-bike, but I am not tempted in the least to try making them work on the Inhaler again - so they're not a problem anymore.

I rolled the Inhaler outside for a few minutes today to refresh my memory. It made me smile, and that's like a little spark I can use to ignite the next fire.

Eric had some other work he needed to do, and I needed to step back for a minute, so the front motor mount has been on hold for a little while. My lease is up in two months and I needed to think about what's next for me. I think I am going to sign on for another year somewhere in Columbus, and focus on getting my two vehicles a little further down the road. I picked up a part-time gig selling auto parts to help cover the bills, which will allow me to dump the proceeds from my design and fabrication work directly into my projects. I love being single. 

When I resume working on this one, I will get the motor and body parts mounted, get the roof on it, have a driveshaft made, get a small Kelly controller for the field, some cheap lead acid batteries, wire it all up, and then start really pushing the development of more of my parts.

I am seriously thinking about just setting up a trailer axle so that the leaf springs simply bolt to the Inhaler's frame (just ahead of the rear wheels), along with a tow bar that bolts to the front of the frame. The whole setup would probably only be an extra 100lbs, meaning I would really only be pulling the weight of the Inhaler. My Honda can do that easily. My "footprint" will be physically and ecologically small. My only concern is going places where I have to climb really steep grades (mountains even ) to get there. A turbo or supercharger would get the job done without affecting fuel mileage, and big brakes would help for the other side of the hills. I'm trying to get setup to eventually be able to hook up and go anywhere, any time, at the drop of a dime.

More to come...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The e-bike project is officially dead


You and me both, my friend. 



toddshotrods said:


> I am seriously thinking about just setting up a trailer axle so that the leaf springs simply bolt to the Inhaler's frame (just ahead of the rear wheels), along with a tow bar that bolts to the front of the frame. The whole setup would probably only be an extra 100lbs, meaning I would really only be pulling the weight of the Inhaler.


Great minds!
I was just thinking this recently. I was looking at the foot pegs on the tractor and imagining having a pair of indespension units made up to fit straight onto the same spot under the chassis.
I figured on being able to slide in the unit on each side and then lever it over centre to lift the back wheels and then lock in position. With the balance point just ahead of the wheels the front of the tractor will have nose weight and so I could just lift it onto the hitch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You and me both, my friend.
> 
> 
> Great minds!...


  Now if we could get this pesky "pond" out of the way, so we could trailer them both to some events, park 'em together, and share our special scratch-built brand of EV joy with the rest of the world!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I wonder what it would cost to fly a vehicle over?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I wonder what it would cost to fly a vehicle over?


Fly . . . we don need no steenkin airplanes, just hook Woodie's tractor to the Island and drag it over here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I wonder what it would cost to fly a vehicle over?


Probably a good lithium pack. 




Jimdear2 said:


> Fly . . . we don need no steenkin airplanes, just hook Woodie's tractor to the Island and drag it over here.


Now, that's a plan!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Fly . . . we don need no steenkin airplanes, just hook Woodie's tractor to the Island and drag it over here.


I might need to find some slightly taller tires, or some very wide ones!


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> The e-bike project is officially dead (shipped the motor out today)


Hey Todds, Sorry to hear the e-bike is official dead, I was so impressed on that project. But thing happen, even with me, I have been delay with my project because of finance, luckily I got a new contract with my old customer and hope everything will go on smooth.

Albano


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> Hey Todds, Sorry to hear the e-bike is official dead, I was so impressed on that project. But thing happen, even with me, I have been delay with my project because of finance, luckily I got a new contract with my old customer and hope everything will go on smooth.
> 
> Albano


Thanks Albano. EV stuff is so much fun that I just got tempted to stick a bunch of irons in the fire. I am going to keep my nose to the grindstone until the Inhaler is at least a whole functioning vehicle. I've got too much invested in this project to get distracted now. I still haven't decided what I want to do with the Binelli frame yet...


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Albano. EV stuff is so much fun that I just got tempted to stick a bunch of irons in the fire. I am going to keep my nose to the grindstone until the Inhaler is at least a whole functioning vehicle. I've got too much invested in this project to get distracted now. I still haven't decided what I want to do with the Binelli frame yet...


Don't give up your dream, keep the frame , you might need it some days when you ready.

As i told you I'm busy picking up with my business, I will finish my drag racing Go-kart this year and you still have to design me the roll-case and the fairing for my Go-Kart.

Just got my motor back today and it look great, just have to wait sometime to see it.

Albano


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I did the roll cage in CFreeman54's Fiero over the last couple weeks. Seeing his cage, climbing in and out around the door bars, and sitting inside a caged animal, made me look forward to the day when I am that far on the Inhaler. I _*love*_ caged race cars!

Today, I went out to the garage and started mentally going over what I have to do next on it, and what's needed to get to that point (caged). I got tired after about a half-hour of "mental work" and went back inside!  Whew! I'm still wiped out! I need a burger and a beer.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I wondered where you have been.

I like the idea of a caged car, proper racing cage, not the chrome bolt together exhaust tubing jobs.

I want to allow for one on the trike if I can. I've never made on though and don't want to have one heavier then the trike. A braced roll hoop woud be a minimum.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I want to allow for one on the trike if I can. I've never made on though and don't want to have one heavier then the trike. A braced roll hoop woud be a minimum....


I need to pass tech with sanctioning bodies, but for normal street duties a well-designed roll bar would work and keep the weight down - especially if you build it!  As long as it's designed to keep your critical parts off the turf should you end up right-side-down, rolling, and sliding, you should be cool. Maybe some forward bars to keep your lower extremeties attached...



Woodsmith said:


> I wondered where you have been....


Catching my breath, and gearing up for the next round. Next go-round, parts finally get permanently attached, and it begins to look like the rendering. The issue is with the quality standards I hold myself to that's going to be a MAJOR effort.

The motor mounting affects everything, as everything is centered around it. The front motor mount crossmember passes the anti-sway bar through the frame rails, so it's size and positioning are critical. The rear crossmember insert is an engineering piece that feeds torque into the chassis...

The body has some very trick mounting stuff in the works to allow me to get in and out of a caged T-bucket body with a roof. There is no possible way to climb in that little tiny door, around a cage, and under a low (48" tall) roof - even at 5'4"/125lbs. The whole side of the body is going to open suicide-style, but you won't be able to tell it does when it's closed. To further the illusion, I plan to make the original T doors also open suicide style, so I can open one of them at events and laugh as people try to figure out how the #3!! I get in and out!  All of that has to work precisely, and be light as helium. Plus, the body can't be mounted without all the systems for that because it's really going to be split into 6 pieces that look like one together.

I've been working on the plans for all that as I recharged my batteries.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I went back to CFreeman54's today to install a torque arm I made for him, to keep his Warp 11 from doing the twist, and got my first EV ride!  It was just in the driveway, but was enough to let me get a taste of what this whole thing is about. Mind you, all this time I have been building the Inhaler based on my perceived notion of what an EV is like. He pulled a handful of 800 amp take-offs, and the 11" series motor is definitely a torquey little rascal.

The experience was quite a bit different than I expected - that's neither bad nor good, just an observation. I'm glad to have had it, and it will definitely affect my plans for the Inhaler going forward. It's hard to quantify and explain it right now, but I will elaborate later. I did smile, but my overall impression is more like an EV "hmmmm..."


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My first EV drive also left me feeling that it is different.

My usual driving, when I set off, is right foot on the brake, clutch comes up, foot off the brake, car moves, feed in gas. Then change up as required.

I found with an EV I set off left foot on the brake, right foot 'feathers accelerator, left foot off the brake and move off feeding in power as required.

Weird, but I will get used to it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I thought that maybe after sleeping on it for a night I would be better able to describe my impression, but I am still at a loss for words. I am sure I will enjoy the instantaneous torque, being a diehard racer, but this experience was more about how the "machine" comes across. The ride was also just before I fired up my Honda and hit the road to go home. My Honda is at or near the absolute top of my list of vehicles I've owned. I normally only keep vehicles a year or two, but have owned this 91 Accord since 2002, and purchased the one before it in 1998. I think I kept the 86 Accord until 2004, when rust finally won the battle. RIP little Accord. 

I had been watching videos of people driving and trying to use that combined with all my ICE experiences to determine what I thought it would be like - I was off by a good bit. I need to re-think a lot of things I had planned to do with the Inhaler, to get the overall impression of the "machine" I am after. It's really hard to describe, but I know exactly what I am trying to say!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I thought that maybe after sleeping on it for a night I would be better able to describe my impression, but I am still at a loss for words.


Sleeping on it for a night?
If the forum clock is right you are up before I go to bed some days!

I always liked the idea of instant torque from low revs, it is why I like diesel engines over petrol and probably comes from my 'Jim' gene that makes me want to pull immovable objects with an irrisistable force.

However, the feel of electric is unlike anything from an ICE. I found that one thing was having no feedback that anything was imminent. With an ICE, you get the revs building up, the engine note labouring as the clutch starts to bite, a bit of chassis flex as the torque is transmitted, all happening to tell 'the seat of your pants' what is about the happen, whether it be a stall, smooth pull away or wheel spin.
Don't get that with electric.
The first feedback is movement, hopefully in the right direction.

That is why I removed all the 'slack' from the tractor throttle pot. I didn't know, and couldn't tell, where between 5k and 4.7k the motor would start to spin and the tractor move. So now I know it will move at first touch. (I must add a high pedal cut off just in case.)

The feel of the drive torque once moving is familier, from riding the London Underground in my youth and the Manchester trams now, I like the constant thrust in the small of my back that is proportional to throttle position.

Anyway, that is how I think I would describe my EV driving experience so far.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I am not very fond of sleep - just enough to recharge the batteries and on with the program. Necessary evil. 


I'm really into overall vehicle dynamics and design - the thing that makes a particular brand have that distinctive and familiar feel. It's a funny thing because manufacturers spend millions engineering it into the vehicle, but the consumer completely takes it for granted as being a coincidence. Even particular methods of propulsion have many years and millions of dollars of engineering to make them "feel" the way they do - e.g. the traditonal ICE production car. What you experience when you start it, put it in gear, and drive it, are carefully engineered systems.

I noticed something that I can't quite explain, that I guessed wrong about with electric. I was right in many of my assumptions, but a little off in how I planned to deal with them, and what the results would be. 

Like I said, it's hard to explain but I know exactly what I am thinking. 

I just have no clue yet what to do about it now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe you were expecting something like this? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rShStMuu0Cw


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

A surprise for me was I missed engine noise. There are compensations, though, like being able to hear exactly when the clutch starts engaging, and hearing what the tires are doing. It is low priority, but I have thought it would be fun to have a sound generator that made the car sound like a Ferrari, or continue to spin down the turbine like the car in Men in Black.

I like a car that is tight -- no slop in the steering for instance. The electric is so quiet I can hear any little squeak or rattle, making it sound less tight than a car with engine noise covering things.


toddshotrods said:


> I am not very fond of sleep - just enough to recharge the batteries and on with the program. Necessary evil.
> 
> 
> I'm really into overall vehicle dynamics and design - the thing that makes a particular brand have that distinctive and familiar feel. It's a funny thing because manufacturers spend millions engineering it into the vehicle, but the consumer completely takes it for granted as being a coincidence. Even particular methods of propulsion have many years and millions of dollars of engineering to make them "feel" the way they do - e.g. the traditonal ICE production car. What you experience when you start it, put it in gear, and drive it, are carefully engineered systems.
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Personally I love the sound of an electric motor, especially a high powered one that has a good whine. It's a different sound of power, but it's still power.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe you were expecting something like this?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rShStMuu0Cw


Nope, what I am talking about is not about speed, torque, acceleration, or burnouts - though all that stuff is part of my plan. Actually, I was impressed with how effortless the 800 amp pulls were - we were in his driveway afterall, so he could only push so far.

As for that particular burnout. I am impressed that OCC managed to build what appears to be a legitimate TF style bike, and the fact that Spiderman climbed off his 5-6 second TF bike to pull it in the water, but no so much with the burnout itself. It only shows that the motor has enough torque to turn a wet tire. I would hope a 13" Berube/GE motor could do that, at the least. Waiting, optimistically, for hard numbers...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> A surprise for me was I missed engine noise. There are compensations, though, like being able to hear exactly when the clutch starts engaging, and hearing what the tires are doing. It is low priority, but I have thought it would be fun to have a sound generator that made the car sound like a Ferrari, or continue to spin down the turbine like the car in Men in Black.
> 
> I like a car that is tight -- no slop in the steering for instance. The electric is so quiet I can hear any little squeak or rattle, making it sound less tight than a car with engine noise covering things.


I missed this post - and JRP3's last one. I didn't notice that there were additional posts from when I started typing my last one, and when I actually clicked to submit it.

David you're barking up the tree I am sitting in. Even though I was just a driveway ride passenger, I did kind of miss the engine sound but that should be taken care of with the Inhaler's forced-air system. I'm actually revising the deisgn to make sure it's louder now. When the pedal is pushed, people _will_ hear a race car!

It's really interesting how much not having an idling engine changes your perception of the vehicle. It's really weird because it's totally different outside the vehicle as opposed to being inside it. I thought a lot of what I was hearing in the EV videos was from the microphones on the cameras, but in real life I was eerily aware of every little sound. Even my own old bones popping and creeking, and the sound of my clothing as I moved. For a daily commuter, a nice entertainment system and sufficient sound insulation would actually go a long way towards masking this odd sensation. The only issue is the keyword in all this - masking. Masking things is expensive and comes with weight penalties. Without an idling engine it would be possible to create an even more substantial perception of quality, but it would add significantly to the weight of the vehicle. It is doable though, and there are some advanced sound control materials available - for a price. If Rolls goes through with plans to build an EV, I would expect it to be like sitting in a top-notch sound studio. Your own voice would probably even seem to be richer and more soothing. Like I said, there is engineering in the average production vehicle that people aren't even aware of. I know Rolls isn't average - I was making a point about vehicle engineering on both ends of the spectrum.

The issue with the Inhaler is I am not converting a factory vehicle. I am building one from scratch, and one that is a race car in disquise. Referring back to David's comments again, there are certain sensations and sounds that add to the general perception of a hot rod or race car. Those types of things might not be important to you, but they are critical to me. When a person gets in a 69 Camaro, with a big block engine, and dual exhausts, there are a host of issues contributing to the perception that occurs that creates the smile and sense of satisfaction. Ditto say for a vintage Ferrari. The same is true with an older hot rod, and especially an old race rod.

I had developed a system of materials and processes that I thought would help me build what I want, and acheive my target weight. As I was sitting in Creig's Fiero I realized that it wasn't going to work. My perception of the vehicle wasn't going to be what I expected. Anyone I took for a thrill ride wasn't likely to walk away thinking what I want them to think. I have been doing this for over two decades, and have a very good idea what is going to result from combining certain elements.

I just have to go back to the drawing board and rework some ideas, and re-tune the likely perception I and others will walk away with. I know this isn't important to most of you guys, but it is to me.

*NOTE: This time I am asking you guys up front, to refrain from posting silly pictures and comments. Maybe this sounds stupid, funny, or senseless, to you - that's fine. Please just click yourself away and come back when I have more EV specific information to share. I obviously can't make you cooperate with this request, as this is a public forum, but I also don't have to continue posting anything here either. I would like to continue sharing though because DIYEC is a HUGE part of why this project even exists as an EV. I just don't have a really big sense of humor in this regard though.*


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Work it Todd. I understand but have a hard time conveying it in words.

I just tell folks I work on three dimensional, Multi-sensory, interactive art in my spare time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...three dimensional, Multi-sensory, interactive art...


Nice. 

(_disregard - this is just added fluff to meet the 10 character requirement)_


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

You know guys, I am man enough to admit that this project has eclipsed my original intentions by miles!  I am more than capable, as a matter of skill, but it just took on a life of its own and went places in people's minds and hearts that I would never have imagined. I am honestly a little taken aback by it. Remember, I set out on this particular journey in 2005 just to build a little street rod to display my design and fabrication work on.

Beside the people and companies on this board who have expressed interest and encouragement, there are people locally here in Columbus that talk about it like it's a person. Every once in a while I find myself in conversations with people, some who have no serious interest in custom vehicles, feeling like they're talking about a living celebrity instead of my little race rod. Many of them really have no clue what the heck I'm talking about when I say it's going to be all-electric, blah, blah, blah... They just like it.

I am really humbled by all this, because to me it's just my little street rod project. I have been more concerned with the thought of it being lost in the sea of custom cars in the world, and the effort it's taking to build it not being fully recognized. Lately, I started really paying attention to what people say about it to figure out what I can do to make it stand out a little more. I am beyond surprised...

So, this is just to say thanks for all the postive words and encouragement. You're all a part of Team Inhaler, and it wouldn't be the little star it is without you.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

Maybe you should try and get a drive in or talk to somebody who owns a Tesla,
The _*three dimensional, Multi-sensory *_experience may be similar to what you -*could*- end up with

On the video when a Tesla sits next to some rattly shakey V8 at the drag strip - that says something different

When I had my 2 liter twin cam mini - it was a point of pride that it idled nicely without shaking the car
And that it deliverred power smoothly

My recumbent bike was faster than conventional bikes (despite the "motor") but one of the best things was somebody behind could not see how hard I was working - it looked as if I was pulling away -easily

That - easy quiet - performance could be a strength 

Saying that I would like to be able to select from a series of sounds;
Steam engine
Jet fighter
Somebody making engine noises with his lips
Totaly knackerred rattly old engine on its last legs

I want a sound machine that changes with rpm and pedal - i'm sure somebody knows how to make one!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You know guys, I am man enough to admit that this project has eclipsed my original intentions by miles!  I am more than capable, as a matter of skill, but it just took on a life of its own and went places in people's minds and hearts that I would never have imagined. I am honestly a little taken aback by it.
> 
> I am really humbled by all this, because to me it's just my little street rod project.


I found this with my tractor.
The nearest analogy I can think of is watching your children grow up. At some point they change from being 'your baby' to being a person in their own right affected and moulded by their own experiences and influences of others.

When I was first building using Land Rovers and MGs it was always what was in my mind that came out as the end result. Now, as I have found with the tractor and is happening with the trike, it develops a life of its own because other people are interested, and interested enough to provide their input into how it could be.

I suppose, like growing kids, you could home educate or send them to a school, one isn't necessarily better then the other but will produce a different person possibly, with external input, a more rounded one in some ways.

Maybe it is the same for the Inhaler, it will be what you build but will reflect and exude what others are looking for.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...The nearest analogy I can think of is watching your children grow up. At some point they change from being 'your baby' to being a person in their own right affected and moulded by their own experiences and influences of others...
> 
> Maybe it is the same for the Inhaler, it will be what you build but will reflect and exude what others are looking for.


Kinda, sorta, Woody. The strange thing about this is the Inhaler still looks like "me"; like the kid walking beside his/her parent that everyone says is a chip off the old block. Aesthetically, physically, structurally?, the Inhaler is exactly what I meant for it to be. It's "essence" though, it has taken on new dimensions. It is more than just my little hot rod now. It's kind of tied into this whole EV movement. Remember, I converted it to make my design work better; not so much to save the planet or help mankind turn the corner to a more sustainable lifestyle. I have nothing against the EV industry and sustainable/renewable living concepts. I actually believe in them whole-heartedly and think it's the "way" for our species and the planet in general. I just never saw myself being formally connected to or involved in them. The Inhaler has two wheels firmly on that side of the road, and is pulling me and my business along for the ride.

Beyond that, I have also noticed that people seem to look at and talk about it as a sort of symbol of hope. Even non-automotive, non-environmental, people respond like that. Like seeing it, or hearing about it, gives them some sort of inspiration, that extends beyond the smile.

I have no idea what I am going to do with, or about, all this. As I said, I am really taken aback and humbled by it, because in my mind this is just my little hot rod project that was conceived to display my design and fab work.

Onward and upward, I guess.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Your little project is inspirational on many levels to many different people for just as many reasons. I believe people are attracted to creativity and pull inspiration from it. 

I experienced the same things when starting my e.v. project the first time. Customers (I ran a coffee shop at the time) were always looking forward to/demanding updated information and pictures. They would come in with tales of how my doing my thing inspired them to get their little projects moving again. And the argument between the Engineer and the fine art sculptor over two grill inserts I was considering was priceless. Wish I had a video of it. Follow that with the look on both their faces when I came up with a third design that they both liked.

Before you ask, I cut it up and tossed it in the dumpster because I did not see the components I needed becoming available on the horizon (UQM and SAFT are still not available). I learned a huge amount from it, and have put that knowledge into a second version. 

Oh and there will be a second version, because Inhaler and you pulled it from the mental scrap heap for for another go around.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I just never saw myself being formally connected to or involved in them. The Inhaler has two wheels firmly on that side of the road, and is pulling me and my business along for the ride.





toddshotrods said:


> Beyond that, I have also noticed that people seem to look at and talk about it as *a sort of symbol of hope.* Even non-automotive, non-environmental, people respond like that. *Like seeing it, or hearing about it, gives them some sort of inspiration, that extends beyond the smile.*


I think that is one reason you have quite a following with your EV related project threads here and with those who you meet face to face. It probably also relates to the same thing many of the rest of us feel when out projects move forwards and others around us start to believe.

Building an EV project has brought my Dad and I closer then we have ever been over 44 years. I can hardly remember more then a a couple of times when he has been so inspired, happy and positive about anything 'beyond the smile' with anything I have been involved in.

I think it is an inspiration, and a hope, that we are finally making changes. 
For some it is a change to their family runabout, for others it is an alternative fun vehicle, and then there are those who will use it for competition because it is believed to be genuinely better, they then go and prove it.
And there is the Inhaler. 
It should have a big block V8 in it and chrome side pipes and a massive blower on top, just like all the other T buckets since the 50's. But you are breaking the mould.

Like Killacycle, White Zombie, Jim's pulling tractors, CroDriver's BMW, my friend's 250 mile range Citroen Berlingo project, you are doing something that is completely against the grain for what is expected in that format and would normally, and certainly in the recent past, be dismissed as impractical and not competitive and something that wouldn't work.

This becomes ground breaking. Few of the rest of us are making such big moves against convention and that.... that gives hope and inspiration to us and others that this is real, that EVs are real.

It becomes a case of:
'Wow! This is actually happening now! 
It isn't just a few tree hugging amateurs sticking a fork lift motor and a few lead acid batteries in their beaten up old car and getting 5 miles range and 20 mph, that can only aspire to out perform a kid on a push bike when going down hill with a tail wind. 
_This_ is something that gas guzzlers will aspire to, and lose to.'

It is like being able to tell your own kids that you were there when EVs finally beat the gas cars in all arenas. 

This is how I see it. Some of us are making little steps and those little steps are helping others to make some great big ones.
You may not have envisaged the Inhaler being one of the heros of the EV world, maybe the others mentioned above didn't either when they started, but it happens, often without any forethought or intention. 
You just do your stuff and others will go 'WOW!' as the ICE blinkers finally begin to fall off.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks fellas. Your words are enlightening and inspirational to me.

There's really only one way for a guy like me to deal with this situation - step up my game, up the ante, and push the limits! If the Inhaler is destined to be an entity, not just a funky little street rod, I need to make sure it's the absolute best one it can be! There are some areas where my attention was 100% focused on my own design work, and on being fiercely competitive to validate that work. I can do some fine-tuning and enhance its ability to inspire.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well guys, I guess it's time for my baby to grow up! I've decided to meet the challenge of its role as an inspirational leader. To effectively serve as a "hero" (Woody's words not mine - throw the tomatoes across the pond at him ) the gloves have to come off, and there can't be any inherent limits. To that end:


The wheelbase is getting stretched a whopping 18-inches to 108"!  This is for ultimate stability at insane levels of performance and speed. I stretched it out to the range you normally see for hyper-performance sports cars.
The plan for the motor will be revised to a siamese configuration capable of exploring the *full megawatt* potential of the forthcoming Big Sol controller from EVNetics.
The stretch will also allow me to accomodate more conventionally arranged battery packs stuffed with 2992 A123 cells, capable of supplying everything Big Sol asks for. That's 448 volts and 2530 amps; from cells arranged 22p x 136s in two box-type cases that will be under and behind the seats.
The current chassis is going to be a cut and hack, disposable, development mule. When I am sure of everything I will recreate it in, round, chrome-moly that will be TIG welded and heat treated as a complete chassis to relieve the welding stresses.
The point of all this is to remove the limits. When I started creating my little hot rod the short wheelbase was a personal challenge. I used to drag race, wheelie-bar-less, street-legal dragbikes and enjoyed the challenge of the balancing act. I was attempting to recreate that exhileration in a caged race car, but that plan puts limits on the Inhaler's full potential. I'm working on drawings now to rebalance the layout, and will follow that with renderings, etc. It's going to be the same little crazy little truck, just a little more sinister looking.  I am sure that , with a megawatt of power, it will still be challenging and rewarding to _pilot_.  

The chassis stretch should happen soon, so I can start moving the 2D layout drawings into real-life. I will probably wait and do new Photoshop renderings off pictures of the actual (post-stretch) truck for better accuracy.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Todd, sounds great but that build will take years unless some really skilled people work full time on the project...

The battery pack constructoion alone is a huge task. 

3000 A123 cells means 6000 spot welded connections - each one a potential problem.

The BMS will also be quite a challenge. 

When do you expect to finisg the car?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Todd, sounds great but that build will take years unless some really skilled people work full time on the project...


Thanks Cro. That's where my design comes in. It's an incremental race car build plan. Absolutely every single part and component is replaceable, meaning I can start wherever I am and just continuously upgrade. The chassis is a great example of that. I just keep hacking away and revising this one until it's time to do the full round-tube moly chassis. In the meantime, I am using the truck. I can even keep doing that while the new chassis is being sorted out, after fixturing the main points off of this one. It's also completely modular, meaning I can remove individual parts and test fit them on the new chassis, then pop them back on the existing vehicle. When I say I have a LOT of design time in this concept, I mean a *LOT! *The design itself is also modular, allowing me to continuously refine and adapt it to emerging technologies, without starting over. Even the change from ICE to EV was relatively easy and very rewarding because of this.





CroDriver said:


> ...The battery pack constructoion alone is a huge task.
> 
> 3000 A123 cells means 6000 spot welded connections - each one a potential problem.
> 
> The BMS will also be quite a challenge...


That's actually working out nicely. I've started a few discussions with people and companies off the forums, and it's looking very promising. I promise I'll share more when I get a little closer. I'm not intimidated in the least by that though. I'm also not married to the A123 plan, and with the new layout I actually have more freedom. If something better comes around the corner...





CroDriver said:


> ...When do you expect to finisg the car?


As stated, it's a race car. It's finished when it's impossible or impractical to make it go faster. I expect it to move under its own power next year, and continue to get faster and faster as time goes by. My timeline is also working well with EVNetics, and I have expressed to them that I am more interested in them bringing out the meanest, most powerful, most capable, controller possible than rushing to market with a product that is not a substantial improvement over what's currently available. The EV racing market is just barely alive, and still on the incubator. What we really need to do from here is look at what we can do raise the bar so that we're pushing limits rather than trying to catch up to existing ICE efforts. I think the technology is there, just waiting to be fully utilized.

You've helped proved that with your dyno run; and Wayland did with his huge leap in performance into the 10s. A TT ICE car with performance equal to the megawatt of performance you've proven is possible would be comparable in price. The TT motors are usually in the $30-50K range, another $10K for a clutch and transmission (an ICE must-have), $5K for a rear-end or diff and axles, add EFI, cooling, fuel system, etc, and you're roughly in the same neighborhood. EVs are getting there because of the new battery technologies, and a certain badass controller coming down the pipe.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

So go from 9 inch under stock wheel base to 9" over stock or about the same wheel base as current sedans. I was concerned with how twitchy it may be. Besides long and low is another great style.

Now about the battery pack. I am intrigued.....

Beyond that WOOT! TODD'S FOUND HIS FIRE AGAIN!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...Beyond that WOOT! TODD'S FOUND HIS FIRE AGAIN!


Lol! I never lost it, just had the burner turned down a bit so I could sort some things out. It only takes a second to go from medium simmer to full boil! 





MJ Monterey said:


> So go from 9 inch under stock wheel base to 9" over stock or about the same wheel base as current sedans. I was concerned with how twitchy it may be. Besides long and low is another great style...


I was intrigued with the challenge of controlling it. "Long, lean, low and mean" was a special division of our motorcycle club for the guys that rode the stretched, lowered, street-legal dragbikes. We had a special patch that went on our jackets.

I'm really happy with this latest development in the plan. It kind of takes it from nice little pup to mean Rottweiler in personality, and opens the doors for me to start thinking about _really_ serious levels of performance.

Weight might creep up to 1500lbs, but the moly chassis and lots of aluminum and titanium parts will eventually bring it back to under 1400. The 1200lb goal was another self-imposed challenge, just to see how light I could build it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been tinkering with the side-view of the longer version and eventually realized that I don't have to redo the front-three-quarter view rendering. In typical artist's fashion I had it stretched in the rendering to make it look better. It would actually have been much stubbier from that angle with the 90" wheelbase. This became obvious when I saw the length of the gap, from track nose to body, in the 108" version. The short version really barely had enough space there for the forced-air unit, while the rendering always had a big opening. Sweet!

My artistic license turned out to be a prognostication of what my little fella was destined to be. I'm such a proud papa!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've finally found a position to work with my graphics pad that doesn't leave my right hand and arm in pain. It's still not completely comfortable, and there is a little fatigue after a while, but I think that is because I'm not used to the position and moving too much from the wrist and not the shoulder. It's natural though and feels like I am drawing right on the screen.

As a result; an updated rendering, with a full rear-three-quarter view sketch, 108" wb side-view drawing, roll cage tubes, the forced-air blower, and a more accurate depiction of the grille:









I like it. I think the extra wheelbase makes the whole thing come together. As mentioned, the front-three-quarter view was already stretched. The side-view actually just matches it now. I was a little worried that the roll cage would detract from the vintage look too much, but I love it!  Even though this is supposed to be a full-on modern race car, I want it to look like I actually took an old car and turned it into a race car. I think it's happening... 

This is the first good glimpse I've given of what the forced-air unit will look like on the truck. The electric motor is the centerpiece of the whole design, and the blower is the candle burning atop it. 

PS: I have one more revision that I see I need to make. I'll eventually do that and just update the image in my website, so it will show up here. The roll cage front tube needs to match the angle of the bed in the side view. It appears to in the rendering, but is angled down into the front too much in the side-view. Picky, picky.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That blower looks so cool there, Todd.

The cage tubes look better in the three quarter rear sketch then the side view though.

Out of interest, how wide is it? Just wondering in comparison to my trike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That blower looks so cool there, Todd....


Why, thank you sir! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...The cage tubes look better in the three quarter rear sketch then the side view though....


I know. There are subtle differences in each view, that I left purposely to compare. The rear down tubes will likely end up being closer to the side-view to meet NHRA requirements. They have to be no less than 30-degrees from vertical. They're really only twenty-something in the side-view drawing, but I stopped there to keep the drawing in perspective. I'll see what I can do about tucking them in when I actually start welding stuff up. I can put another brace in and lower the point where they attach to the rear hoop (no more than five inches down from the top), but from the side-view it looks like that would be right in the window slot. I don't expect to be able to really see anything out of it, but it might look stupid with a bar running directly behind it. Whatever looks best in real-life, and fits the rules, I'll do.





Woodsmith said:


> ...Out of interest, how wide is it? Just wondering in comparison to my trike.


76-78" from sidewall to sidewall in back.  I want a rear view shot of it sitting next to a Lamborghini someday!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I updated the rendering. The front bars in the side-view are angled to match the bed and now curve down to the frame. I also repositioned the rear down tubes as they would be with an additional brace, within the legal limit. I added the front upper crossmember to the cage (inside the "cockpit", between the front hoop bars, at the top of the windshield). And, finally, I added the seat bar to the cage (inside the truck, behind the seats).

If you don't see the changes hold down control or shift and refresh. I can sleep now...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

Hi, I've been following along quietly for awhile.

Your latest rendering looks awesome!!!

Just wondering about getting in and out of it? 

Assuming your front tires are about 24" OD, it looks like the side window opening is less than half of that tall. It looks like it will be a pretty tight squeeze sliding through the side windows? Or will the little doors open?

Later,
Eric.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

INCONCEIVABLE said:


> Hi, I've been following along quietly for awhile.
> 
> Your latest rendering looks awesome!!!...


Hiding in the shadows, eh? Nice to finally meetcha! 

Thanks, I really appreciate the compliment! 





INCONCEIVABLE said:


> ...Just wondering about getting in and out of it?
> 
> Assuming your front tires are about 24" OD, it looks like the side window opening is less than half of that tall. It looks like it will be a pretty tight squeeze sliding through the side windows? Or will the little doors open?
> 
> ...


Excellent eye! You're assumptions about the sizes are pretty much dead on. Actually the side-view has an even smaller window to body ratio, and I am aiming for it. As I said, there are subtle differences between the views that I left purposely, for now.

Even at 5'4"/120-125lbs, I don't think I would be able to work myself through the window opening I want, without eventually doing permanent damage to my back or neck; which are already on shaky ground. Plus, that would make the likelihood of filling the honey seat very slim. Not good. 

Similarly, a Model T "door" is probably about 18 x 18", and the door bar will bisect that opening. NHRA regulations specify that the swing-out bars must attach and pivot within 8" of the main and front hoops - not possible with the T-bucket door location. So that would still mean working through a compromised large dog door sized opening, and somehow managing to end up in a seated position. Can you say chiropractor? 

The solution, which I believe was mentioned elsewhere in this maze of a thread, is the whole side of the body is going to open - suicide style!  The front gap will be the just ahead of the normal front door gap, and will extend all the way down to the frame. It will look like the normal gap you see between a vintage car's cowl and body. The rear gap will be around the rear corner and where the bed sides meet the main body. There are natural ridge lines in the body there that will help conceal them. The large single (per side) hinges will actually be inside the bed, and will pivot the side of the cab out and away - geometry for that is under development. The front-side windshield posts and outside corners of the top will all be a part of this big door, but will look like they're part of the main body when closed. Actually the main body is an illusion - it's a collection of individual skins to cover the race chassis and make it look like a Model T.

The best part is, the original "T" doors will still open, suicide style. At events, I will be able to open one of them and laugh as people try to figure out how in the #3!! someone gets in and out of the truck! 

The important part to remember is that the Model T pickup you see is basically a design illusion. It's really a race car with foam-core, carbon fiber, composite panels attached to it to make it appear to be a normal vehicle. It will be completely self-contained, and fully operational, without those panels. That, and the quiet electric motor, are presenting a lot of challenges for me in making it "feel" like a vintage rod inside, to complement the visual trickery.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

So It's been 2 1/2 week, I know something has to have been changed in that length of time.

Anything noteworthy to release to your viewing public?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> So It's been 2 1/2 week, I know something has to have been changed in that length of time.
> 
> Anything noteworthy to release to your viewing public?


Sorry, nothing worth mentioning. It might be another month or so before I get back to work on it. I have some decisions to make, about the Inhaler, about business, and life in general, that will take some time.

I've been getting some sorely needed work in on my daily driver/concept car project. It's an ICE, but I am tempted to meet in the middle with a hybrid setup on it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've also been watching recent developments, with the manufacturers, DIYers, EV racers, and most importantly, battery technology. My plans have always been heavily dependent on battery technology to allow me to build a lightweight, ultra-powerful, race car. I have maintained all along that I am not married to the A123 M1 cells, they just made the most sense. Well, that may have changed. The new pouch cells are incredible! From John Metric on the NEDRA Yahoo Group:



> I built a dual 9 inch motored Fiero, with Z2KEHV. I have a *LIPO pack factory rated at 2000amps* burst for the entire drag race run but looking at John's plots he doesn't ever reach 2000 battery amps, not even for a second, so this looks like I won't stress this *42 lb pack* too bad...
> 
> ...I am waiting on *pack two and three to bring the total voltage to 333V nominal voltage*...
> 
> ...


 
With a bit of fiddling to meet my specs, I could build a pack with the specs to match my latest 449V/2530A M1 plan with half the weight! That would put me back down to about 1200-1300lbs - wicked! 

Time to start looking into scoring pouch cells...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Time to start looking into scoring pouch cells...


Before you do that, you might want to consider looking into the Kokam pouch cell packs built by Metric Minds for Alex Smith. There's more (less, really) to these pouches than meets the eye...

http://media.ev-tv.me/news062510-1280.mov

First, they are electrically live on the edges, and need to be insulated. Second, they need dimensional stability, which pretty much requires a case be fabbed up for them. Yes, they are nice cells, and high-C discharge capable, too, but by the time you put together a nice, safe container for them much of the apparent weight savings over cells with an integral case is going to go away.

Minimalist enclosure would be fine for a show or drag car, (maybe,) but not for road car. You could also do the container in composite, but it would still weigh something, and turn an already expensive battery solution into a REALLY expensive one...

Worth checking out.

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> ...http://media.ev-tv.me/news062510-1280.mov...


That link doesn't seem to be working. A blank page opens but never fully loads?





TomA said:


> ...You could also do the container in composite, but it would still weigh something, and turn an already expensive battery solution into a REALLY expensive one...
> 
> Worth checking out.
> 
> TomA


Thanks for the input Tom. I have been planning to do composite cases all along. The containment dividers don't seem to be any more complicated or expensive than the things I had in mind to locate and connect almost 3000 cylindrical cells. I could be wrong though, and I am listening. I just start with looking into availability because all the design in the world is pointless if I can't get them.  Also, need to know what specific cells are available, if any, to design the cases to fit them.

I saw somewhere that someone used coroplast for containment. I was thinking about Nomex/fabric composite containment dividers, in carbon/Kevlar/foam enclosures. The Kevlar is for thermal insulation, and abrasion resistance in the event of an accident. Just general ideas, no real time invested in the specifics yet.



While I am on the subject of composites:

I am looking into the possibility of making the forced-air blower housing from carbon fiber. CFreeman54 had a scrap piece of cured carbon fiber that I was able to tap on to see how well it resonates. That bit of "research" was extremely promising. It "sung" like a drum, and actually seems to have a lower frequency than aluminum. That is a serious plus because I need to balance the higher frequencies of the motor/controller combo. I also tested the concept in the rendering with a gray/black blower housing, and aluminum-colored stacks and motor drive - looks wicked! 

I'm working on actual design and production methods now to see if it's feasible. Most likely I would have wood/resin composite molds cut, from my CAD models and vacuum bag the housings. I'm working on a design that would use really thin inner and outer housings on each side, epoxied at the perimeter and in the center to form one half of the blower housing, with air space between the inner and outer runner areas. That would let all four pieces resonate as much as possible. I considered pre-preg but, since there's no real structural component to the composite idea I'm working on, I think the money and time may be better spent on pricey 3.5oz cloth for lighter weight and better resonance. The drive assembly would be hard-mounted to the traction motor, and the composite fan housings bolted to it. Their purpose would be solely in channeling air.

I've also decided to return to electric drive for the blower. I have been searching for the right 2-3hp motor to drive it. I have this idea in my head for a second pot box connected to the accelerator pedal to control the blower and make it rise and fall with motor rpm, like the belt-driven setup would have. The difference is I can also have a manual or electronic secondary control that sets the "idle" speed of the blower motor. In other words, I can bump its idle speed up to keep cooling air flowing through the motor when standing still (especially important after a race). I could also make that secondary control temperature activated, so that it comes on whenever the motor reaches a preset temp, to make sure the blower keeps going until it cools back down.

The most interesting part is I can put an NC switch on a "clutch pedal" button that would allow me to disable the traction motor's pot box and "rev" the forced-air unit. All this stuff will put a little hot rod feel back into the equation, and still serve functional purposes. It's actually a much better, higher-tech, system capable of more effectively keeping my cool - literally and figuratively!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

For the dual electric drive:

Dual Sprag clutches on the blower's final drive shaft for both drive sources.

Set up so that either motor can overrun the other. Whichever motor will drive the blower faster will drive it.

Second/Aux motor can be added later.

Blower would also then coast down, Like a turbo.....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> For the dual electric drive:
> 
> Dual Sprag clutches on the blower's final drive shaft for both drive sources.
> 
> ...


I considered something like that when I first started designing it, but eventually decided on the motor-driven design. Now that I am back to electric drive, it will be a totally self-contained system, and completely separate from the traction motor drive system. The only "connections" between the two will the air blowing directly into the comm ports, and the dual pot accelerator.

I will explain more in the future, but I have been rethinking and revising my plans for how I realize this entire project. A lot of changes that are being made, and will be made, have to do with the processes that will be used to create them. In a nutshell, I had to develop plans that give me more ultimate control over the project, and less dependency on others. I have also managed to get too far away from my main goals. Just trying to get my priorities in order.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I understand, the process as

1) Concept
2) how to make?
3) Design,
4) How to make?
5) Redesign or rethink or commit

Repeat 4 and 5 until happy or so frustrated you can't stand another redesign/rethink then commit to build. Try to avoid the frustration clause.

Waiting patiently for more project updates.
MJ


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I understand, the process as
> 
> 1) Concept
> 2) how to make?
> ...


I can live peacefully in that cycle, almost indefinitely - design is what I do. The frustration, for me, comes when it's time to exit my space and work with others to realize the plans. This is tooting my own horn a bit but, I am having trouble finding people and companies to work with that can keep up, and I haven't even scratched the surface of what I considered to be advanced design yet. I know of some that can do everything I ask, and probably challenge me to do more (a challenge I would welcome, by the way), but I'm currently in transition from budget-oriented markets (hopefully) towards the cost-is-no-object stratospheric realm.

In the meantime, I figure out what I would really like to do, then back it all back down to what I can realistically nudge and persuade the foot-draggers to do.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> That link doesn't seem to be working. A blank page opens but never fully loads?


I downloaded the file on that link. It's a 2GB video of one of Jack Rickard's show. I'm converting it down to a MUCH smaller size and I'll host it on my web server. Should be able to get it down to 150MB.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

OK, here's the video: http://www.socalmuscle.com/forum/video.mp4

1/8th the size of the original.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Crash said:


> ...It's a 2GB video of one of Jack Rickard's show...


Ahh, that explains it. It didn't say it was downloading, so I just closed the page. I just have regular speed cable, so that would have taken a while. 



Crash said:


> OK, here's the video... 1/8th the size of the original.


I'll give that a shot later today. Thanks. I've never watched one of his shows, because of the comments about how long they are. I'll try this one.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Watching a battery charge isn't high drama, but there is useful information in them. You can always watch in fast forward using VLC player then slow it down for the interesting parts.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Watching a battery charge isn't high drama, but there is useful information in them. You can always watch in fast forward using VLC player then slow it down for the interesting parts.


That's what I do. 
There is sometimes only around 5 minutes of good useful information in 20 and I have spent a lot of time on FF watching pointless waffle. However, it is his way and it is still useful information but I am the type of person who wants just the facts and the processes when learning stuff.


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Ahh, that explains it. It didn't say it was downloading, so I just closed the page. I just have regular speed cable, so that would have taken a while.
> 
> 
> I'll give that a shot later today. Thanks. I've never watched one of his shows, because of the comments about how long they are. I'll try this one.


It's no joke about his shows dragging on. What TomA was showing you about the pouch-type batteries is early on in the video though. It's a shame about what they say concerning Victor's battery box, and it honestly looks like they're going out of their way to bash it. But aside from that, their concerns are warranted.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...but I am the type of person who wants just the facts and the processes when learning stuff.


Me too Woody.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been designing and designing and designing, reworking everything for the 108" wb. For some reason, in the midst of my research, I remembered this little Toyota and decided to see what kind of wheelbase it has - 90 inches, and it's stable as a granite boulder all the way through the traps - running 8.0s @ 176+mph!!! 




 
Now to decide whether I still want to stretch it.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have this idea in my head for a second pot box connected to the accelerator pedal to control the blower and make it rise and fall with motor rpm, like the belt-driven setup would have.


Technically it's otherwise better to measure the motor temp and let the blower speed follow that instead. If you do a short but hard acceleration the thermic delay will mean that the blower RPM will go high before it does help much and it will drop again when it's needed the most...

I guess that's one of the reasons why blowers on most cars today aren't belt driven anymore.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> Technically it's otherwise better to measure the motor temp and let the blower speed follow that instead. If you do a short but hard acceleration the thermic delay will mean that the blower RPM will go high before it does help much and it will drop again when it's needed the most...


You didn't keep reading Q:


toddshotrods said:


> ...The difference is I can also have a manual or electronic secondary control that sets the "idle" speed of the blower motor. In other words, *I can bump its idle speed up to keep cooling air flowing through the motor when standing still (especially important after a race). I could also make that secondary control temperature activated, so that it comes on whenever the motor reaches a preset temp, to make sure the blower keeps going until it cools back down*...


 


Qer said:


> ...I guess that's one of the reasons why blowers on most cars today aren't belt driven anymore.





toddshotrods said:


> ...It's actually a much better, higher-tech, system capable of more effectively keeping my cool - literally and figuratively!


Exactly.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You didn't keep reading Q:


Ah. Oups. Happens sometimes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No turning back, the 108" wheelbase just makes everything come together and work together better. I revised the plan (and the rendering) with the results of all my planning. I went for the classic, long-nose, street rod profile by leaving the cab and motor where they are now. The stretch is all in the very front, pushing the front wheels 18 inches forward, and using the full-length track nose. I started off trying to purposely make this thing look like an oversized go-kart, but this allows it to make the final leap to being a more _mature_ street rod.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Will you get a little more room between the motor and firewall so that you can better present the carved mount? 

If I am envisioning properly, at half past midnight, an inch or two clearance will allow for better reflections in the mirrored firewall.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Will you get a little more room between the motor and firewall so that you can better present the carved mount?
> 
> If I am envisioning properly, at half past midnight, an inch or two clearance will allow for better reflections in the mirrored firewall.


Nope, I didn't change that. I'm stretching the chassis in front of the motor.

Actually, the mirror is probably getting cut from the big show. That's why I didn't bother to render it in the updates. There are "top secret" plans in the works for all that, but I can't say right now.

You have a PM coming...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Was at a car show with the GF a couple of weeks back and pointed out a custom and told her that it was close to what I wanted. except move the passenger compartment back 8 inches to a foot with less chop and more section. 

She asked why the longer nose? The only reasonable explanation that I could think of was that the performance/luxury cars of the time used a standard body with a longer front end to give room for the bigger/longer motor. So to me the performance car should always have a larger proportion of nose compared to the rest of the body.

I've also found that I tend to clip cones less if the rear tires are near my shoulder....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Was at a car show with the GF a couple of weeks back and pointed out a custom and told her that it was close to what I wanted. except move the passenger compartment back 8 inches to a foot with less chop and more section.
> 
> She asked why the longer nose? The only reasonable explanation that I could think of was that the performance/luxury cars of the time used a standard body with a longer front end to give room for the bigger/longer motor. So to me the performance car should always have a larger proportion of nose compared to the rest of the body.
> 
> I've also found that I tend to clip cones less if the rear tires are near my shoulder....


This is funny, as you were posting that I was actually working on the following, not-so-short, story about how I am considering flip-flopping on the long-nose plan. 



*Creep* - it happens to many a good project. Sometimes it's a good thing as it stretches the owners, builders, and racers to new heights. Sometimes it's a bad thing that results in a project that is never realized, or misses the mark horribly.

I've had my eye on that the whole time I have been designing, and even occasionally building, this project. Most of the creep has been from the good angel on my right shoulder, but occasionally the little devil on the left gets a foot in the door. I'm questioning who suggested the latest greatest ideas now.

Working backwards, and as illustrated by the little Toyota in the video, the 90-inch wheelbase is feasible, doable, perfectly acceptable. I settled on it to comply with NHRA rules, but also to have the most awesome cone-carving potential possible. NHRA obviously has a clue as to what's safe, as proven by that Toyota and the many Shelby Cobras that have blasted down their annointed tracks.

Even more suspect is the plan for the larger battery pack, and additional weight. The 1200lb goal was also born out of a quest for the best power-to-weight ratio for the intended goals. The real goal was to eventually hit the magic realm of 2:1 (weight to power), occupied by some of the most wicked racing vehicles on the planet. The lighter the vehicle, the less work the motor has to do to get it moving, the "higher" the direct drive ratio can be, leading to higher top and trap speeds. Also, the lighter it is the easier it is to fling around cones and corners, and (vitally important) the easier it is to stop - negating the need for heavy and/or power-assisted brakes.

I was sitting here looking at the pics of it sitting in the parking lot thinking about all this, and mentally outlining the path it is currently on with the larger pack and stretched chassis. The weight goal had to be pushed up to 1500lbs (which will actually be hard to meet), which starts to make me think about power-assisted (and/or bigger) brakes. It also makes me think about a 13-inch (or siamese 9s) motor for a little more torque - also heavier. Then I started thinking about how battery technology (technology being the key word) is developing. It is entirely possible that the higher power I was seeking will be available in a pack even lighter than the "smaller" A123 pack I had been drooling over. Actually, it is possible now (for a price) with pouch cells.

So, in conclusion , I may end up sticking with what I have in the garage afterall!  The good thing is all this constant design tinkering makes the whole plan better every time. I am usually able to move the best ideas forward into the latest plans and, because the whole concept is completely modular, I can actually incorporate almost any of the ideas that have been explored, at any time. If I do stick with the short version, and find out later that it's not stable enough, I can simply stretch the chassis and move on. Many of the things I had to do for the 108" stretch and larger pack will be implemented either way. There are some chassis mods that I came up with that will make it stronger and able to accomodate more cells, either way.

I'm still trying to figure out what pouch cells the guy building the Fiero is using that can be pushed to 90c. With those, I would be able to meet my power to weight goal easily.

Anyway, I haven't really made up my mind yet either way - just thinking out loud. I plan to start cutting and welding again this month or next, so I am trying to make some final decisions.

Thought, comments?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Many thanks for posting about your design process, this is one of my favorite internet threads of all time.

I'd be surprised if a well designed 1500 lb car would need power brakes. Just put in a good race/street pad if you think the pedal effort is too high; you could also put in larger diameter brakes.

Going back to some of your older posts about driving feel/experience: I have a diesel truck for my business and to tow my electric car to events. Something really neat about it, that I think really adds to the driving experience, is hearing the turbo spin down. It is delayed from the accelerator pedal, and is more a function of how hard you are working the motor than rpm. A thought is you could couple your cooling fan speed to Amps, but put some persistence in there so it would only slowly spin down once spun up. As the motor got hot, you could make the spin down time longer. In addition to sounding neat it would be an audible indicator of both Amps (how fast it spins) and motor temperature (how slowly it spins down). When you shut the vehicle down you could make it spin down very slowly, so it would sound a bit like the car in Men In Black.


toddshotrods said:


> ... The weight goal had to be pushed up to 1500lbs (which will actually be hard to meet), which starts to make me think about power-assisted (and/or bigger) brakes. ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Many thanks for posting about your design process, this is one of my favorite internet threads of all time...


Wow, thanks David! That's mighty high praise.  I've enjoyed sharing it almost as much as designing it. It's the rare opportunity to let a set of goals play out and see what the end result will be. Normally, the design mandate is to fit something new into a familiar old package.





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I'd be surprised if a well designed 1500 lb car would need power brakes. Just put in a good race/street pad if you think the pedal effort is too high; you could also put in larger diameter brakes...


I just don't think it would really meet the 1500lb goal. I think I would be starting a snowball effect in weight gain. I haven't sat down and crunched numbers for every single component, I am just using my experience and instinct, but I see it ending up closer to 2000lbs. It's not the 1200 or 1500lb figures, it's the design philosophy behind those numbers. 1200lbs was derived as a reasonable figure for building the lightest, most powerful, street-legal race car possible. Without writing a book on my design processes, every single decision was based on the philosophy; from the ideas I have for motor building/tuning, to choice of wheels, tires, and brakes.

The 1500lb goal developed differently, and isn't a figure that was produced from actual parts combinations, etc. The philosophy in this case was to increase the capability of the platform itself to absolutely insane levels of performance. The 108" wheelbase was not the goal, it was a result of the goal. The 1500lb figure was a target set in an attempt to reel in the consequences of the prime directive. The increased weight comes as a side effect of the insane-level component choices. A NASA-sized budget could accomplish the insane for less, but on a smaller scale you over-engineer for safety...

The thing that caught my attention is this forced a change in the "feel" and nature of the whole vehicle. The 90"/1200lb Inhaler is sort of like a Ferrari. It's purpose designed, high-strung, and demanding (of the driver). The 108"/1500lb version is more of a brute force muscle car. What you lose in precison you make up for with liberal application of raw power. Each has its own appeal, it's just a matter of which vehicle I want to end up with, and (most importantly) which one will best market my services.





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Going back to some of your older posts about driving feel/experience: I have a diesel truck for my business and to tow my electric car to events. Something really neat about it, that I think really adds to the driving experience, is hearing the turbo spin down. It is delayed from the accelerator pedal, and is more a function of how hard you are working the motor than rpm. A thought is you could couple your cooling fan speed to Amps, but put some persistence in there so it would only slowly spin down once spun up. As the motor got hot, you could make the spin down time longer. In addition to sounding neat it would be an audible indicator of both Amps (how fast it spins) and motor temperature (how slowly it spins down). When you shut the vehicle down you could make it spin down very slowly, so it would sound a bit like the car in Men In Black.


You're kind of barking up the right tree. What I am actually seeking is ultimate control of the forced-air system, so I can make it do what I want it to do, when I want it to do it. I've been working more on the housing and assembly design, to make it louder. I want it to be the equivalent of an electronically controlled performance muffler on an ICE, and the ICE's cooling system in one neat little package. On the auditory end, I really want it to sing when the fan wheel reaches full speed. The switch to carbon fiber is giving me incredible freedom in that regard.

For the motor end, I need to find a small BLDC, SepEx, or AC motor. I want to be able to control the spin down characteristics, precisely. Regen is the best way I can think of to do this. I can set it to full regen mode, with the controller driven directly by the accelerator pedal for the ultimate ICE style performance sound. That would allow it to rise quickly with a stab of the pedal, and fall off just as quickly - the sound of a crisp race-built ICE. I can also set it to rise with the pedal, but take its sweet old time winding down, like a jet engine, with no regen, for that ultimate 21st century effect. With the right control system, linking it to motor amps and/or temp wouldn't be a problem because it's just getting the right 0-5v signal to the controller at the right time. That's why I switched back to electric drive for the blower - more advanced, more control.

It would be kind of fun to walk away from the Inhaler after beating the crap out of it down the dragstrip, or through the cones, with the "jet engine" still screaming at full blast, cooling the motor, and then watch people's expressions as it starts to slowly wind down, as the motor cools off.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> It would be kind of fun to walk away from the Inhaler after beating the crap out of it down the dragstrip, or through the cones, with the "jet engine" still screaming at full blast, cooling the motor, and then watch people's expressions as it starts to slowly wind down, as the motor cools off.


Need the supportive evil grin emote-icon to put here.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Also want to confirm Todd's observations/Empirical data.

2200 pound mustang is fine around town or down the strip Once without power brakes. After that need power assist.

1400 pound SCCA preped G Prod Spitfire (With upgraded Triumph GT6 front brakes and 1600 pounds with driver) Are fine for 4 hour enduro runs. Stock 10" brakes are O.K. for 20 min. runs but need maintenance every race. GT6 11" brakes run multiple weekends between service.

p.s. we do not worry about the back brakes because if the front brakes or working right the rear tires are barely touching the ground.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Also want to confirm Todd's observations/Empirical data.
> 
> 2200 pound mustang is fine around town or down the strip Once without power brakes. After that need power assist.
> 
> 1400 pound SCCA preped G Prod Spitfire (With upgraded Triumph GT6 front brakes and 1600 pounds with driver) Are fine for 4 hour enduro runs. Stock 10" brakes are O.K. for 20 min. runs but need maintenance every race. GT6 11" brakes run multiple weekends between service...


What he said ^^^ !





MJ Monterey said:


> ...p.s. we do not worry about the back brakes because if the front brakes or working right the rear tires are barely touching the ground.


Even though I plan to have some pretty serious rear binders, I hope to verify that theory. 



I'm toying with the idea of ultimate combination - a 108"wb, 1200lb, rocket ship!  Just a chassis stretch for stability, with the ultimate power-to-weight build philosophy of the original plan. It's just a matter of having a plan for good balance, to permit good handling, because the front wheels are shoved so far ahead and the vehicle weight is so light. There's nothing inside that full track nose, so I have the option of placing some components there. The obvious thought is batteries. I'm not crazy about the idea of splitting the pack, so I've been thinking about whether I can run strings of paralleled cells the entire length of the vehicle.

The track nose is probably not quite big enough to fit Big Sol inside it.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I just don't think it would really meet the 1500lb goal. I think I would be starting a snowball effect in weight gain. I haven't sat down and crunched numbers for every single component, I am just using my experience and instinct, but I see it ending up closer to 2000lbs.


My Disclosed Bias: Lighter is always better. Sure, I have a 3900lb '66 Tempest Custom big block station wagon and a 4400lb '95 Caprice wagon, but unless you need seating for 8, lighter is always better. Particularly where you just aren't making much power, e.g. in an EV.

Given my bias, Todd, I think your instincts are quite correct. Your original goal was 1200lbs. A very difficult target in any street car, let alone one saddled by a battery pack. Without actually validating that figure, the design weight then jumps 25% to 1500. That will ripple throughout the vehicle, from brakes to springs etc., and I'm right there with you suspecting your best careful effort will tip the scales at 1875lbs, maybe a little more.

As someone who has been weighing parts for 6 months against a tight mass target, I can tell you a 1200lb 4 wheeler with the components you've been talking about is going to require mass reduction attention to EVERY SINGLE THING. That's good, because the net result is going to be a _much_ better vehicle.

Light cars like early Alphas and especially the Lotus and Elva are deceptively fast. Not necessarily quick, but fast. They usually had laughable horsepower and tiny brakes, but when you drop 30% or more of the mass your competitor is dragging around, everything changes. Lighter is also cheaper, in almost every case except the extremes of magnesium, pre-preg CF and a bunch of other exotic stuff you don't really need. Remember, Colin Chapman used those heavy old Triumph Herald suspension bits just as they were. Lighter is harder to do, but the payoff is in extraordinary balance, and a more elegant overall package.

My suggestion, therefore, which is also my bias, is to work your butt off to _actually_ get to 1200lbs. If you hit that mark, the car will of necessity be finely crafted. It will also be a great joy on the road, particularly if you don't succumb to modern styling trends and overtire it.

Go nuts, man...

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> My Disclosed Bias: Lighter is always better...
> 
> ...I can tell you a 1200lb 4 wheeler with the components you've been talking about is going to require mass reduction attention to EVERY SINGLE THING. That's good, because the net result is going to be a _much_ better vehicle...
> 
> ...My suggestion, therefore, which is also my bias, is to work your butt off to _actually_ get to 1200lbs. If you hit that mark, the car will of necessity be finely crafted...


That's exactly where I am Tom. I love muscle cars, but from a design perspective, I would much rather build a sports car.

I like the challenge of figuring out how to build a true 1200lb vehicle. One that has been engineered down to that weight, not hacked down to it.





TomA said:


> It will also be a great joy on the road, particularly if you don't succumb to modern styling trends and overtire it.


I'll most certainly blow it there! I love meaty tires, and forged alloy wheels allow it without too much of a weight penalty.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I love meaty tires, and forged alloy wheels allow it without too much of a weight penalty.


One of the nicest things about a car as old as a Model T is that you can really change a lot of the look, feel and era of the car just by swapping your wheel/tire package.

To wit, save enough money to get a proper set of painted steelie big'n'little artillery wheels, V16 or Moon caps and repro Firestone lakes tires. Especially with the track nose, that's a killer look that will photograph and show a much more timeless quality than any aluminum wheel or low profile tire.

Trust me on this- you'll get more ink with a more traditional look, which will nicely counter that radical mill and blower, challenging the viewer to date the car in addition to figuring out the motor. Its almost a steam-punk thing, with the right wheels and gauges.

Just a thought...

TomA


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

TomA said:


> Light cars like early Alphas and especially the Lotus and Elva are deceptively fast. Not necessarily quick, but fast. They usually had laughable horsepower and tiny brakes, but when you drop 30% or more of the mass your competitor is dragging around, everything changes. Lighter is also cheaper, in almost every case except the extremes of magnesium, pre-preg CF and a bunch of other exotic stuff you don't really need. Remember, Colin Chapman used those heavy old Triumph Herald suspension bits just as they were. Lighter is harder to do, but the payoff is in extraordinary balance, and a more elegant overall package.


Another advantage with lighter is that you also get more agile. No wallowing through corners, no understeer or oversteer issues, no need to sacrifice suspension hardness for comfort, no need for powered steering or heavy braking, less power needed to get up to speed. 

American Muscle is awesome for straight lines, but the very moment you have to take a corner you're screwed. As ably demonstrated by Jeremy Clarkson, when he managed to beat a stock 2008 Ford Mustang around an oval track with a horse (Which, incidentally, rode on the dirt around the outside of the course). It's in "Clarkson: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" if you want video proof.
[edit]And here's the clip in question, thank-you Youtube: 



[/edit]

Of course, if you really want light, start with an Ariel Atom.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I call BS on that one. Top Gear also showed a Tesla running out of charge, even though it didn't.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I call BS on that one. Top Gear also showed a Tesla running out of charge, even though it didn't.


It's entertaining though. I think that was really the point. 





TomA said:


> One of the nicest things about a car as old as a Model T is that you can really change a lot of the look, feel and era of the car just by swapping your wheel/tire package...


Different wheel and tire packages are definitely a part of the plan. Somewhere, way back in this marathon thread, I mentioned that I would like to have a set of vintage style "skinnies". That's after I shred some rubber down the drag strip and through the cones.  It won't ever really look like a real vintage piece, because of the modern race car chassis. I say it all the time, but I wonder if people really realize the Model T look is nothing but plastic skin hanging on a race car; kind of like putting fishnet stockings on a woman - same legs, but suddenly they become sexy eyeball magnets! 

On a more serious note, the rage in hot rodding right now is Pro Touring. Pro Touring cars are old muscle cars that are built to perform and ride like modern sports cars. Before that it was high-dollar street rods, and before that it was Pro Street (the drag race look). The next trend appears to be race rods, along the lines of this project. Full custom, yet vintage appearing, street rods with the performance and ride characteristics of modern sports cars. The Pro Touring guys love to fling their cars around on race tracks and autocross courses, and the race rods will follow that trend. I just happened to hit the right path by combining two of my passions, street rod "art" and racing. For this up and coming genre, fat sticky tires will be a must have for the vehicle to "fit". 





Anaerin said:


> Another advantage with lighter is that you also get more agile. No wallowing through corners, no understeer or oversteer issues, no need to sacrifice suspension hardness for comfort, no need for powered steering or heavy braking, less power needed to get up to speed...


Yup. 





Anaerin said:


> ...Of course, if you really want light, start with an Ariel Atom.


The Atom is actually very similar to what I seek to accomplish, with vintage skin. It's a little portly though, at 1350lbs; and a bit weak in the knees with only 300hp.  Just kidding, I would love to go head-to-head with one in a little multi-phase testing ritual someday. I see there's a 500hp V8 version now - no specs on it though. 92.3-inch wheelbase and they claim 200mph potential with the V8 car - hmmm!


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## Crash (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, the Atom 500 is supposed to have a 6-speed sequential gear box and a supercharged 2.4L RST-V8. Supposedly the motor only weighs 90 something pounds dressed. I find that hard to believe. The car is supposedly going to weigh 1000Lbs so they're going to be making 1000hp/ton. Ridiculous!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

My two cents is for cornering, it is more about how the weight is distributed rather than how much.

One year a stock class Ford Mustang at SCCA autocross nationals would have taken first place in every stock class but a couple, and would have trophied in those -- it beat many Lotuses, Porsches, Corvettes, etc. At a SCCA Nationals Event close to me, a stock class Shelby Ford Mustang took fast time of the day, beating many modified cars. My stock class Camaro took fast time of the day at a Porsche club autocross, beating 25 Porsches! (Admittedly, I have experience and was the only one there with race tires.  ).

My two cents is I would work harder on getting the center of gravity as low as possible, polar moment, front/rear weight distribution, etc. more than absolute weight for cornering.

Now don't get me wrong, light is good! But for example, I would put the batteries in a single layer at floor level for better CG, even if it weighed more, rather than stacking them, even if that weighed less. I might also make the car wider, for less lean, even if that was heavier than the narrowest car possible.

A very low polar moment of inertia car can be too quick for a human to keep up with and will be spin prone. A high polar moment car will be more stable, but respond more sluggishly.


> Another advantage with lighter is that you also get more agile. No wallowing through corners, no understeer or oversteer issues, no need to sacrifice suspension hardness for comfort, no need for powered steering or heavy braking, less power needed to get up to speed.
> 
> American Muscle is awesome for straight lines, but the very moment you have to take a corner you're screwed. As ably demonstrated by Jeremy Clarkson, when he managed to beat a stock 2008 Ford Mustang around an oval track with a horse (Which, incidentally, rode on the dirt around the outside of the course). It's in "Clarkson: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" if you want video proof. ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Crash said:


> Yeah, the Atom 500 is supposed to have a 6-speed sequential gear box and a supercharged 2.4L RST-V8. Supposedly the motor only weighs 90 something pounds dressed. I find that hard to believe. The car is supposedly going to weigh 1000Lbs so they're going to be making 1000hp/ton. Ridiculous!


I figured it had to be this one, with those specs:

http://jalopnik.com/300848/its-alive-hayabusa+derived-v8-tested-in-ariel-atom

http://jalopnik.com/5631941/ariel-atom-500-a-v8+powered-mirth-machine


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> My two cents is for cornering, it is more about how the weight is distributed rather than how much.
> 
> One year a stock class Ford Mustang at SCCA autocross nationals would have taken first place in every stock class but a couple, and would have trophied in those -- it beat many Lotuses, Porsches, Corvettes, etc. At a SCCA Nationals Event close to me, a stock class Shelby Ford Mustang took fast time of the day, beating many modified cars. My stock class Camaro took fast time of the day at a Porsche club autocross, beating 25 Porsches! (Admittedly, I have experience and was the only one there with race tires.  ).
> 
> ...


I think I'm in 100% agreement with everything you just posted David. Those are the very things I have been working so hard to achieve with this project. The CG should be basement level, and polar moment probably as low as I dare to go. That's the main reason for the wheelbase stretch - to slow the moment down a little.

Fortunately, so far I have found all the measures I planned to take to reduce weight (to meet the 1200lb challenge) to be conducive to good handling. I have always planned to put the batteries under the floorboards, between the frame rails. What won't fit there will creep up as little as possible. The motor is as low as it can possibly go, at the bottom of the frame rails, against the belly pan. There are no major components much higher than this, except the roll cage (and occupants of course). I'm even positioned Lamborghini style to lower my own feather weight as much as possible.

To keep the polar moment from going too low, the motor was just behind the front axle centerline in the swb version. I'm still dealing with that issue in the lwb version, and don't really like any of the possible solutions I have come up with so far. On the other end (with either version) there will be enough cells just in front of the rear axle center line to hopefully slow the moment down enough for the change in yaw to be reasonably perceptible. I find a central driving position (between axle center lines) to be more favorable, and intuitive. The swb version was also much better in this regard. The current lwb version puts me pretty far back, relative to the front axle center line. I don't really like that. It looks awesome, from a vintage car perspective, but I've never really been a fan of the long hood/short deck profile. Especially not from a driver's point of view.

As for width, this thing (either version) is as wide as a Lamboghini Murcielago (track width)!

If it's not apparent already, I am having trouble with the current long wheelbase idea. So far, it seems to be destroying the very essence of the whole plan. Even sticking to the 1200lb philosophy, with the stretch, it still feels very muscle car-ish. I'm still experimenting though. I need to go back to the first stretched version that had the cab and motor pushed forward, and a longer bed, next; and think through balancing that package, with the 1200lb philosophy.

I meant to add that the ultimate solution to the ultra low polar moment swb version would be technology. A yaw sensor with programming to intervene faster than any human could. Probably through braking an individual wheel, or wheels, but that's a HUGE step to try and a lot of trust to put into a low-budget tech effort.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You have probably already taken this into account but for others reading about it...

Having a low polar moment of inertia does make the car very quick and sensitive to yaw but that has strange effects on the driver depending on where the driver is sat.
If the driver is too close to the axis that the car yaws around then there isn't enough sensory input for the driver to react to as movement is almost all rotary about a vertical axis.

Moving the driving seat forward allows the driver to sense sideways, lateral, movement to determine yaw. The body is more able to sense smaller sideways movement then axial rotation and that helps in speeding up reactions.

Andy Green noticed this effect when driving Thrust SSC test rigs for the rear steering.
Because he was sat between the front wheels and the car was steered at the rear he found it very difficult to 'feel' the movement of the car because yaw to him was nearly all rotary. Moving his seat forward made it much easier for him to react to yaw as there was a lateral force allowing him to feel steering inputs and corrections.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You have probably already taken this into account but for others reading about it...
> 
> Having a low polar moment of inertia does make the car very quick and sensitive to yaw but that has strange effects on the driver depending on where the driver is sat.
> If the driver is too close to the axis that the car yaws around then there isn't enough sensory input for the driver to react to as movement is almost all rotary about a vertical axis.
> ...


Yup, I've actually put a great deal of thought into this but the info you posted is interesting, and makes me want to dive deeper into it. Most sport-oriented street vehicles seem to have the driver positioned just aft of the yaw axis. Even the Ariel Atom we've been discussing seems to be this way. Thinking about a range of cars, such as Corvette, Ferrari, BMW M3, Lamborghini, etc, it seems as if you just need to get the dirver either a little fore or aft of the axis. Exactly how far doesn't seem to be an issue. These cars to seem to have relatively high polar moments, as compared to a 90-94" swb car. On the low polar moment side of the equation, looking at cars such as the Atom, Lotus Elise, Shelby Cobra, Porsche 911, etc, the driver is still relatively close to where that axis would seem to be, with the exception of the Cobra where the driver is just in front of the rear wheels. A lot of traditional vintage sports car were that way.

I wonder too how much the individual at the controls has to do with this. Are some individuals inherently more sensitive to certain motions and movements? With no wheelie bar, in street-legal dragbike racing, rider skill means absolutely everything. One of the things that made me a natural for it, beyond being lighweight and having quick reflexes, is a kind of instinctive sense for what the bike was doing. Things can happen so fast that there isn't time to think things through and determine the appropriate reaction. You have to be able to somehow sense it and instinctively react. If there is a pitch change (front wheel in the air) your hand had better be modulating the clutch lever or foot dragging the rear brake a bit (I prefer sliding the clutch) or you'll be on your back before you can say uh-oh!  I didn't mention backing out of the throttle because losing is not an option.  If there was a yaw change, rear wheel spinning, bike fishtailing, you instinctively countersteer out of it before it gets out of hand and you lose the race. We didn't back out, we rode out of the situation.

The same goes for drivers and riders of all dangerously fast machinery. The best have a natural sense of what's going on. I know the vehicle can always exceed the human's ability - I'm just wondering how far that limit can be pushed up with a naturally skilled person at the controls?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Around the world and back to where I started? Maybe.  I'm still tossing and turning over short or long wheelbase. 

I'm leaning more towards the SWB, but haven't made a final decision. Which one do you like, SWB fighter-jet, or LWB assassin?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I prefer the long version, personally.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I say go long. It looks "smooshed" when it goes short, but maybe that's just because of the animation, (which is cool, great contrast of the two looks). Make it a transformer


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I prefer the long version, personally.


Yes, I also like the long version.

Albano


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think the line that goes from the door window edge towards the nose cone lines up nicely in the long version whereas in the short version it doesn't look as linear and has a kink in it caused, optically, by the change in angle at the windscreen.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I think the line that goes from the door window edge towards the nose cone lines up nicely in the long version whereas in the short version it doesn't look as linear and has a kink in it caused, optically, by the change in angle at the windscreen.


Even though there's a variance in my art that causes some of what you're seeing, that's very perceptive because it's what will really happen. One of the reasons they stretch modern street rods is to get the lines to "flow".

Since I am having such a hard time making up my mind, I might just let you guys make it up for me.  I have to make a decision before I start cutting and welding again. If you guys say stretch it, I have to really think hard about following that advice because I know the traditional street rod crowd would say do the long version.

We're three votes closer to an 18" stretched chassis.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I prefer the stretched version. The SWB looks a little to bunched, or busy on the front.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Four votes closer to a stretch.

I must say that I am a little surprised. I expected the EV community to vote for the SWB version because the trend in EVs tends to be more towards small, maximum efficiency, designs. The small one is also more like the city car concepts that are so popular.

You guys must have prescriptions to smoke the wacky weed, cuz you're more attracted to American muscle than practical contemporary design.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Four votes closer to a stretch.
> 
> I must say that I am a little surprised. I expected the EV community to vote for the SWB version because the trend in EVs tends to be more towards small, maximum efficiency, designs. The small one is also more like the city car concepts that are so popular.
> 
> You guys must have prescriptions to smoke the wacky weed, cuz you're more attracted to American muscle than practical contemporary design.


 I'll do the stretched version also, it's more appealing to the showing stance


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

If you mean the small impractical things with 4 (very small) wheels built in places like China and sold as cars (should be toys), then you are right on the button - I do not like practical modern design - I can not even get into it - WTF

Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Four votes closer to a stretch.
> 
> I must say that I am a little surprised. I expected the EV community to vote for the SWB version because the trend in EVs tends to be more towards small, maximum efficiency, designs. The small one is also more like the city car concepts that are so popular.
> 
> You guys must have prescriptions to smoke the wacky weed, cuz you're more attracted to American muscle than practical contemporary design.


Well, did you really expect us to say it needs to be short, have smaller, skinnier wheels, an 8" motor and you need to work on the aerodynamics a bit as it is not very efficient in its current form?
It's a hotrod, pure and simple, designed to do what it does best.

I could have said that it needed bigger agri tyres on the back and a big tow hitch, Jim would have backed me up on that one too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Five steps closer to 108". 






DawidvC said:


> If you mean the small impractical things with 4 (very small) wheels built in places like China and sold as cars...


Those are on the extreme end. At the more reasonable end of the "city car" spectrum are cars like the Smart, that is even sold here (United States) now. BMW is also developing one. I see the Smart cars on the road here frequently, and laugh every time! One passed me on a four lane (one direction) stretch of highway, and I almost had to pull over to dry my eyes! It just never gets old!  On the other hand, I can't imagine being in one that has an impromptu meeting with a truck or SUV!!!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Four votes closer to a stretch.
> 
> I must say that I am a little surprised. I expected the EV community to vote for the SWB version because the trend in EVs tends to be more towards small, maximum efficiency, designs. The small one is also more like the city car concepts that are so popular.


Actually I find the city car concept to be generally unpopular and merely a concession of poor design as opposed to optimizing a vehicle to take advantage of electric power. A short stubby city vehicle leaves little room for batteries and usually has poor aerodynamics. It's also often a turnoff to the general public since it visually reinforces the limited use of the vehicle. EV's don't need to look like stubby toys. Look at the Solectria Sunrise, four passenger, modern styling, more than twice the range of the Leaf with a similarly sized pack. City vehicles do have a place but I don't feel their design reflects well on the image of EV's.
Obviously you have different design considerations than maximizing range in a production vehicle so aerodynamics aren't important, but the vehicle weight you are dealing with is about half of what most of us are working with. It's hard for us to see the few extra pounds of the stretched version as a problem.


> You guys must have prescriptions to smoke the wacky weed, cuz you're more attracted to American muscle than practical contemporary design.


I once had a 1970 Cougar, 1973 Tbird, and still have a 1980 Vette, it's in the blood  If batteries ever get cheap enough....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...I don't feel their design reflects well on the image of EV's...


I agree with that 100%, I just thought the general consensus here would be for that sort of thing. I actually wanted to past that animation and question much sooner, but was leary of whether the opinions would be too biased towards practicality - boy, was I wrong!

My personal preference for EVs is towards the higher end - exotic sports cars and luxury vehicles. Porsche and Mercedes already have production plans for hybrids and EVs, and others are rumored to be considering it. I really hope Rolls builds that big EV they toyed with. The reason I like these type vehicles is they don't have financial restaints so they can experiment with and develop technology that can filter down to future production EVs. Kind of like sending rovers to Mars, but on a much smaller scale. There's no immediate benefit to society, but eventually that technology filters down into our daily lives.








JRP3 said:


> ...Obviously you have different design considerations than maximizing range in a production vehicle so aerodynamics aren't important, but the vehicle weight you are dealing with is about half of what most of us are working with. It's hard for us to see the few extra pounds of the stretched version as a problem...


Yeah, it's hard for me to get the (weight) scales out of my eyes sometimes.  There are some other issues as well. I had a lot of time invested in component layout in the SWB version, and it will take some time to achieve the same balance with the LWB. Straight-line weight transfer, stability, and acceleration will be greatly enhanced, but I have to convince it to turn as well. That same reluctance to get all bent out of shape has to be overcome to get around the cones and through short courses reasonably quick...







JRP3 said:


> ...I once had a 1970 Cougar, 1973 Tbird, and still have a 1980 Vette, it's in the blood  If batteries ever get cheap enough....


I forgot you're a reformed musclehead!


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I would prefer an Inhaler to any city car - actual and concept, which I have seen so far. The Inhaler looks good, and for me that make sense for what it is. The current generation of car designers are the ones smoking, if you ask me.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Dawid.

The process of seriously designing around the 108" wheelbase has begun. Nothing to show or tell yet, because the first steps are a lot of thinking about what can and should be done, countless hours of research, hours and hours of 2D & 3D design, and finally some cutting and welding. The plan is to be out to 108" by the end of November, and have it rolling around with the bodywork and motor mounted by the end of the year. I'd like to close out this year with a conclusion to the questions of "what", and focus on making it all work next year. I also want to do some events next year; probably first as a static display and hopefully as a working vehicle somewhere along the way.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> At the more reasonable end of the "city car" spectrum are cars like the Smart, that is even sold here (United States) now. BMW is also developing one. I see the Smart cars on the road here frequently, and laugh every time! One passed me on a four lane (one direction) stretch of highway, and I almost had to pull over to dry my eyes! It just never gets old!  On the other hand, I can't imagine being in one that has an impromptu meeting with a truck or SUV!!!


The Smart actually has a pretty impressive crashworthiness package.

The best city cars, and ideal conversion cars, from the Mercedes A-Class to the Honda City, Ford Ka and Renault Twingo, just don't make it here, usually on crashworthiness but more truly because Americans don't want them. I don't think I buy cars because of how they do in crashes, but I do haul my kids around in a 4600lb Caprice Classic Demo-Derby-Class battle wagon, so who can say? 

Go with the longer wheelbase. Sure, its not as "responsive" and all that, but that can be a better thing. Case in point- the Ferrari 308GTB is a little bit tail happy. I had one with coilovers and a full track package that was more than a little tail happy. I really loved it, and then I drove a friend's GTB4. The Giugiaro 4-seater had a marginally stiffer and about 4" longer wheelbase chassis than the GTB, which on the road was a significantly better compromise. The second or two you'd lose at Lime Rock was more than offset by better balance and a more rewarding, tossable nature. Accordingly, Todd, I think the longer wheelbase will make for a better car.

BTW, it all comes down to steering for me. The Ferrari steering- feedback, ratio, positive feel, precision- is like no other. Only the Acura NSX comes close in my experience. That's what I think makes a sports car really satisfying, not necessarily lap times or 9/10+ performance. Its much harder to make a car steer well than it is to make it corner hard, and that's why I like the skinny tires, too. They don't mask the geometry of the chassis design. Its kind of like the difference between lifting weights and Tai Chi. The Alpha guys are all over this. If you can give the Inhaler delightful steering, it'll be a winner. So will you.

I also have the rather pathetic attachment to grunt which seems to flow through many of the veins around here, as evidenced by my 468" Pontiac. Don't ask about the steering on that one... 

Good luck with the build as it comes together, Todd.

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> The Smart actually has a pretty impressive crashworthiness package...


I've read that before but, for some reason, I still wouldn't want to be the dummy that tests the theory in a crash. I still have yet to see pics of one that met with a 4000-6000lb vehicle on the road. Or, better yet, pics of the Smart's occupants post crash. Call me skeptical, but I kind of like walking around and eating with a fork... 






TomA said:


> ...it all comes down to steering for me... If you can give the Inhaler delightful steering, it'll be a winner. So will you...


I'm with you 100% there Tom. My long range plan calls for a Woodward rack to replace the Fiero piece - awesomely tunable. 






TomA said:


> ...Todd, I think the longer wheelbase will make for a better car... Good luck with the build as it comes together...


Thanks Tom, I think you guys have won the argument for the long wheelbase version. I'm working on plans for the stretching jig, and should be ready to start cutting and welding before too long.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I've read that before but, for some reason, I still wouldn't want to be the dummy that tests the theory in a crash. I still have yet to see pics of one that met with a 4000-6000lb vehicle on the road. Or, better yet, pics of the Smart's occupants post crash. Call me skeptical, but I kind of like walking around and eating with a fork...


See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz-s1sIoLhU


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> See for yourself:...


Thanks for posting that. I am a little impressed with the cage, but as I said:



toddshotrods said:


> ...I still wouldn't want to be the dummy...


 
I've been T-boned twice. Once as the driver in an S10. Hit from the passenger side hard enough to throw me across the other lane, and into the grass on the other side of the roadway. It was in a parking lot (I was in the main aisle) and a little old lady had enough speed coming through a row of cars to send me over the curb! She got out and said, "weren't you going a little fast there?!" 

The second time was in a parking lot as well, here in Columbus. I was the passenger and a younger lady connected with my side of the car hard enough to spin us 180-degrees. I saw it coming and ducked towards the driver's side. That was in an early 90s Cavalier.

Both vehicles were still used after the accidents and no one suffered any injuries. No air bags. The S10 had a bent cab corner and crunched door, and the Cav had a caved in quarter and bent rear beam axle. I'll take my chances with a little extra metal between me and the other guy. Those Smart crash tests look like one helluva migraine to me!


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## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

For what its worth, I prefer your longer version.
I built my car short (84" wb, just big enough to fit everything) and now I wish I had made it a little longer.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/239

A little more room for the batteries, and room for a bigger motor (9" vs 8") would be nice, In fact, I barely had room for my Soliton1 controller in the chassis!
Also I feel my body mockup looks a little short and tall. If I build another one like this, it would be at least 6" longer, maybe more.

My next project that I'm collecting parts for is looking like it will be about 120" wb.

Eric.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

INCONCEIVABLE said:


> For what its worth, I prefer your longer version.
> I built my car short (84" wb, just big enough to fit everything) and now I wish I had made it a little longer.
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/239
> ...


Thanks for your input and vote. I love your EV! 

I just read/watched a R&T article/video today on the Ferrari 458 vs Lambo Gallardo and it reminded me of this decision. Of course, Ferraris and Lambos are worlds apart from my little race rod, but a lot of the comparison came down to high-tech vs raw sport. Not taking anything away from the awesome 458, but the Lambo sounds like it would be more fun on the track.

I came away thinking that, similarly, the 108" wheelbase on the Inhaler would be more fun, just as Tom pointed out about the two Ferraris he drove. Being white-knuckled on the edge is definitely more challenging, but that doesn't necessarily translate to being more rewarding. A vehicle that makes you work a bit to put through its paces (in the turns), but is capable and confidence-inspiring can be a lot of fun to play with.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I've read that before but, for some reason, I still wouldn't want to be the dummy that tests the theory in a crash. I still have yet to see pics of one that met with a 4000-6000lb vehicle on the road. Or, better yet, pics of the Smart's occupants post crash. Call me skeptical, but I kind of like walking around and eating with a fork...


Anyone but me find this funny coming from a guy who rides and races motorcycles?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Anyone but me find this funny coming from a guy who rides and races motorcycles?


Ha-ha, good point but from behind the handlebars it's a totally different ballgame! I've been hit by a car, down on my side, and over the handlebars, and I would take any of those over being in that little 'toon car!  When that 6000lb SUV is barreling towards me, I can stop, lay the bike down, or jump off (I've done all three). Let the bike take the impact, while I slide and spin my way out of danger.

My most vivid example: I was riding with a group, in pairs formation. First and second pair went around the corner, I was on the left, making a left, in the third pair. When I got in the middle of the intersection, I saw what appeared to be a motorcycle coming straight at me - fast! Then, I realized it was a car with a busted headlight! I pushed as hard into the turn as I could, but realized I couldn't clear the car. I pulled my left leg forward, and pushed off the bike when the car hit. He hit just behind my rump, took the bike down the road, while I went a different direction. The first guy through the turn saw it all, and said I did a half somersault/half flip. I came down on my hands and knees, got up and ran away from the lights. I got a couple dozen stitches in my left knee, and was back on my bike as soon as I could bend it enough to ride. (didn't want to rip the stitches out, it wasn't swollen or sore)

Had I been in that toon car, I would have just had to brace myself for the hit, and hope my body could handle the force it transmitted to my body. I kind of have that concern about driving the Inhaler on public roads. The NHRA-spec cage would do its job, but at 1200lbs, with basically no body work, I would feel it. It's also only 48 inches high, meaning they would probably see the toon car before they saw me in my hot rod. The chopped top means I probably won't see them until I wake up. 

Like I have been saying all along though - this is a race car, that is street legal. The goal was never to make a practical street vehicle.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had a very similarly exciting experience. Teen girl driver takes a left turn across my lane right in front of me, I had a split second to lock them up before I slammed into her right side trunk. Bike stopped and I went flying, did a flip, and landed on my feet running! Bike was totaled, (I rebuilt it later), and all I had was a chipped bone in my left hand. However, if I had hit a bit further forward by the passenger compartment I probably would have smashed my body into the car, face first. In most cases I think I'd rather be in a car, even a Smart, during a crash.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Very lucky JRP3. A buddy of mine did a similar thing (over front fender in his case.) He ended up with a compound fracture -- that is when the bone is sticking out of the skin. He healed up fine but he was hurting for a while.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been staring at pictures, animations, and slideshows, trying to acclimate myself to the long version but it just wasn't working for me. I looked at pictures from the beginning of this journey, up to the present; scanned this marathon thread for thoughts and info; and figuratively pounded my head against the wall trying to figure out what's wrong.

I'm glad we had that conversation a handful of pages back about the Inhaler growing up and kind of becoming it's own entity. While I have no problem with that, I have to be inspired to work the project or it will fall on its face, and end up in someone else's garage prematurely.

As the project grew from a Indy car inspired roadster into a street rod pickup, I have also been evolving into more of a traditional rodder. Each evolution pushed the Inhaler further towards being a vintage-looking truck, as opposed to a conventional hot rod. A vintage truck's proportions have a much larger bed to nose ratio, while a conventional hot rod has the opposite. I want it to look more like a vintage truck someone stuck a modern race chassis under, sooooo...








I've decided to stretch the chassis out to the 108"wb *behind the cab*, and stretch the bed! Instead of cutting the chassis right now, I am going to make new control arms that move the rear end back 18". I think I can use this to my advantage to get better geometry in the long run.

I have to do some measuring and drawing to figure what kind of bends I need, and what supplies I need, but these will be fairly simple to fabricate. Stretching the bed will just require pulling a couple quick molds from the sides, to make stretch panels in, and then splicing them in.

The box under the bed is representative of what the battery boxes will probably look like. The rear stretch also gives me more space for two "normal" cases.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It works. I still like the longer front look, but I'm not the one building it


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks JRP3. 

I forgot to mention that, equally as important as the image, is the fact that the truck is better balanced. Look at how the mass is distributed in the chassis. Everything is spread out evenly in between the axle center lines, as close to the longitudinal center line as possible, and as low as possible.

Another _possibility_ is, depending on the final size, I may be able to put Big Sol in the passenger side floor - much closer to the motor. Imagine it recessed into it's own pocket in the carbon fiber floorboard, and with "tunnels" for the cables running to it from the battery pack and forward to the motor; all visible through the windows or open doors.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm no help on this decision at all. I like all three.

But since it is a pickup it should have a usable bed and the bed should be part of the design statement. I always thought the 18" beds on the fad T's were a bit too comical. So On that note it makes sense. And the long bed gives a very logical and clean setup like a comercial vehicle should have as a sub-flavor.

Cruising SEMA next week will keep Inhaler in mind as I walk the miles......


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Instead of cutting the chassis right now, I am going to make new control arms that move the rear end back 18". I think I can use this to my advantage to get better geometry in the long run.


I do have one concern/question. How are you going to manage to sufficiently support the bed with no frame in the back 2/3rds of its lenght? Fiberglass is notoriously "bouncy." I have a hunch you don't want the bed looking like the fenders on a beach buggy[1] when going down the road. 

[1] traditional Manx style buggy but not an actual Manx which had steel reinforcement in the body You may not have noticed it before but if you watch, most of the clone buggies flap their fenders like wings when the road gets rough. I'm laughing at myself when I point this out because my EV buggy is a Manx clone too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I'm no help on this decision at all. I like all three....








MJ Monterey said:


> ...But since it is a pickup it should have a usable bed and the bed should be part of the design statement. I always thought the 18" beds on the fad T's were a bit too comical. So On that note it makes sense. And the long bed gives a very logical and clean setup like a comercial vehicle should have as a sub-flavor...


Me too. I bought the longest one I could find (30") but really wanted a 48" bed in the first place. I think some of the earliest truck drawings and renderings may have been based on a 48" bed, but when it came time to buy I couldn't figure out where I saw it and just bought the thirty-incher.





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Cruising SEMA next week will keep Inhaler in mind as I walk the miles......


Cool, imagine it there as you cruise - one of my goals is to show it there. I would love to make it next year, if I get enough done over the next 12 months, and save enough change to make the trip.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> I do have one concern/question. How are you going to manage to sufficiently support the bed with no frame in the back 2/3rds of its length?...


No Manx buggy bouncing here!  I didn't draw anything yet but I have a couple tricks up my sleeves for supporting the bed.
The final versions of all the body work will be carbon fiber/foam composites, so rigidity will be inherent in the parts. Foam will be used to create bracing directly in the parts - like the inner structure of a hood. I've used this technique with great success in the past, even with cheap polyester/mat fiberglass parts.
Since I will be using fiberglass parts now, and because I plan to really push this chassis to its limits, I will build a triangulated subframe to support the back of the bed, and all the components that will be located in the bed. Imagine an artistic triangulated A-frame that sweeps up from (bolted to) the frame's rear kick-up, and terminates at the back of the bed (one on each side with a tubular crossmember connecting them in back). They'll probably be hidden between the inner and outer bed sidewalls, but made to look good when the bodywork is off. Maybe thin-wall, small diameter (.500"?), moly, tubing.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I must say that I am a little surprised. I expected the EV community to vote for the SWB version because the trend in EVs tends to be more towards small, maximum efficiency, designs. The small one is also more like the city car concepts that are so popular.


I just have to comment on this even though you've already made up your mind. Prepare for rant. 

I hate small cars. I've owned one, a Renault R5 -74, and it sucked. Not only was it a rolling death trap, if I'd totalled that one I'd been minced meat since it had next to no safety features, it was also completely worthless for anything but transporting 2 persons from point A to point B. Back then I played keyboards in a band and the only way to cram all the stuff in the car was by removing the back seat, which of course meant that if I'd ever run into something I'd been crushed between the wheel and my instruments. And then turned to minced meat when the whole car collapsed.

Ok, a Smart is much safer, but it's still as impractical (or, actually, even more impractical) than an R5 since it can only carry two persons + a few grocery bags. In my world that's next to worthless and that goes for all those pathetic excuses for electric cars in roughly the same size since grocery shopping for us usually means some bags, a sack or two of dog food etc. In our Jeep Grand Cherokee the back seat is more often folded than not, go figure... 

So even though I'm definitely pro-EV, I'm seriously against letter boxes on toy wheels and personally I think that EV's can never be main stream until we se some normal sized cars.

Ok, rant over.

I liked both your designs, therefore I didn't comment. I kinda liked the shorter, stubbier front but I also liked the overall length of the longer version, so to speak. So the new version with the short, stubby front but longer rear might actually be a perfect mix of the two initial versions. At least to me.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Todd:

As the car gets longer, and particularly as you stretch the pickup bed, it needs less rake. The rake is already pretty extreme, and as that translates into longer bed length the car is in danger of looking cartoonish. This visual issue gets exaggerated in the bed because the floor of it is flat. If its 12" long, nobody notices, but if its two feet or more, the incline of the flat floor of the bed (and the high tailgate) doesn't look right, especially to a casual observer. I would also make the bed deeper for much the same reason.

I'm not sure a Big Daddy Roth Zinger is the look you're after. This thing is already so small and so radical that if it were me, I'd be looking at making the detail styling cues conventional and realistically proportioned. I think toning it down in that way gives the car more credibility, and therefore more impact, than if its outrageously wild in every aspect.

Just a thought.

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...Prepare for rant.
> ...Ok, rant over...


Feel better now?!  Actually, I agree with your sentiments on miniature cars. I've owned some not-quite-miniature (81 Civic, 82-ish Tercel, Fieros, etc) and always grew tired of the cramped space. Mind you, I am 5'4"/125lbs (about 140 then), but still prefer a little extra space around me. I've been driving Accords for the past twelve years, and that's about as small as I care to go for a daily driver. I given two 300+lb guys a ride in my current Accord, and must say that they looked like they had been packed in a sardine can - kind of made me realize the Accord is still fairly small, so those micro cars have to be just plain _tiny_. 






Qer said:


> ...I liked both your designs, therefore I didn't comment. I kinda liked the shorter, stubbier front but I also liked the overall length of the longer version, so to speak. So the new version with the short, stubby front but longer rear might actually be a perfect mix of the two initial versions. At least to me.


I felt the exact same way - I liked the stubby front, and the long wheelbase. 

I think the first, long-nosed, stretch version looks like some kind of cartoon character. Compounding the issue was the fact that the extra real estate was where I needed it least. I am always processing ideas in my mind, and that long-nose version "felt" like a primitive sports car. Fun to wag the loose tail around in masculine displays of power, but that doesn't get you down and around the race track any faster. There is a reason modern Vettes and (front-engine) Ferraris have the engine in front and the transaxle in back.

Gotta do the front-three-quarter rendering today. It should look really good, and more like the original T pickup picture in the artwork.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> Todd:
> 
> As the car gets longer, and particularly as you stretch the pickup bed, it needs less rake. The rake is already pretty extreme, and as that translates into longer bed length the car is in danger of looking cartoonish. This visual issue gets exaggerated in the bed because the floor of it is flat. If its 12" long, nobody notices, but if its two feet or more, the incline of the flat floor of the bed (and the high tailgate) doesn't look right, especially to a casual observer. I would also make the bed deeper for much the same reason.
> 
> ...


Actually we're in agreememnt there Tom. It doesn't look like it in the side-view drawing, but I actually pulled a LOT of rake out of the bed already! When I first stretched it I simply pulled it 18" or so longer. The bottom of the tailgate was probably over the top of the rear tires!  I am inching my way closer to more classic styling with each evolutionary step, but also trying to keep a tinge of angry, aggressive, race car in the mix.

The reason I stopped cranking it down is the effect of the rake is less in real life, because the truck is so low. The top ridge of the roof is 48" high. Being that low, it kind of skews your perspective. More appears to be less, and extreme is sometimes just enough to be noticed. To see the truck the way you're looking at it on your computer screen you would have to get your eyes down to around two feet off the ground. I could really make this point if I was doing the drawings in CAD, because I could move the "camera" up to normal eye levels and snap realistic human perspective shots. Maybe I'll do some simple geometric shapes, with the CAD chassis mule I have for this project, to illustrate this. It's a pretty interesting aspect of design, because you're really just directing light into the eyes of the viewer. It's fun to think about where those eyes are relative to the art piece, and imagine how the light will reflect towards them.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


>


When I first scrolled past that image looking for the last unread post my first thoughts were that the nose looked too short, and I was about to say so but then I read that you have lengthened the back so I went back to have another look.

I think what it is is that the nose appears to start from the firewall where the cage tubes are vertical whereas I think the nose really starts from the door post which is a little further back beneath the screen so it is longer thenit might seem in the grey profile outline.


I do keep thinking of these proportions though, The Ford AA used in The Walton's.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

In a triumph of vehicle marketing that maybe nobody has ever done better than Henry Ford, the official published dimensions of the bed of this truck are:

"Two chicken crates wide, a milk can high, and a door long."

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> When I first scrolled past that image looking for the last unread post my first thoughts were that the nose looked too short, and I was about to say so but then I read that you have lengthened the back so I went back to have another look.
> 
> I think what it is is that the nose appears to start from the firewall where the cage tubes are vertical whereas I think the nose really starts from the door post which is a little further back beneath the screen so it is longer thenit might seem in the grey profile outline...


Yup, it is actually a good bit longer than it appears. The "nose" or front clip of a vehicle typically starts at the base of the windshield. One-box design is like a VW bus; two-box is the typical SUV/crossover; and a three-box design is a pickup, sedan, or coupe. The split between box one and two is usually at the base of the windshield.

Maybe you guys didn't realize just how long the nose was in the first stretched version. Even in the front-three-quarter view rendering the actual length of the nose isn't really obvious, because of the open motor compartment; it's l-o-n-g, in relation to the main body and especially the bed. About twice the length of the bed! 

That would have meant around 60" of nose (box one), 45" of cab (box two), and 30" of bed (box three). That's probably a classic sports car profile, but it was driving me crazy looking at my little truck bent and twisted to that shape. Also, if you look at the original T pickup in my art, and in the pic Wood posted, a short nose is a character trait of early Fords. Conventional street rodding methodology is to stretch the nose of everything, but that also kills the vintage appearance of a T, IMO.

I probably missed some things, but this is close enough for now. I just wanted to see all three views before I start cutting and welding. So far, I am very pleased with this, and finally at peace with this truck's basic design direction. It "feels" right now...













Woodsmith said:


> ...I do keep thinking of these proportions though, The Ford AA used in The Walton's...


Exactly. 




TomA said:


> ..."Two chicken crates wide, a milk can high, and a door long."


That's priceless!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


>


That Soliton 1 in the pick up bed is HUGE!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That Soliton 1 in the pick up bed is HUGE!


Yeah what's even more frightening on this ghostly Halloween night (trick-or-treating is happening here) is the fact that Big Sol might actually be that big!!! Muhwahahahahaha!!! 

I can't remember the exact numbers but, way back when WZ's 11.4? pass was still impressive, Tesseract mentioned some prospective numbers for Big Sol. I think it was at least a couple feet long, a foot or more wide, and over a half of a foot high. With the way things have progressed since then (WZ headed for the 9s, Rocket for the 6s) I have just been planning for something humongous, like 30 x 18 x 9" to support the beast that will accomodate the future of electric drag racing!!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I had intended to sneak this one in place of the last artwork, but Woody foiled my devious plan of deception by noticing the oversized Soliton in the bed. As mentioned I am hoping to be able to relocate it closer to the motor, so it shouldn't be in the rendering.

I also added some extra detail to the battery box, pinched the firewall four inches, and re-shaped the doors and top. As I get closer to actually putting things together I get more realistic about how it's all going to function. The original "T" doors are way too small for a person to climb through, and over a cage door bar, and my idea for making the whole side of the body swing out add way too much complexity for what is gained. There's still only a small space to squeeze through between the door bar and front hoop/down tube bars, so that would be a lot of work, for little gain. I decided to just enlarge the orginal door, and give it a little vintage race car sweep (upward) in back in the process. I plan to retain the bead to keep some of the vintage "T" flavor. I love early 20th century automotive details








Still loving it. 



This one is to help understand and picture the true length of the nose; and its ratio to the cab and bed. The track nose actually makes it a tad longer than the original nose, even with a shorter hood.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Todd,

Just a thought on entrance.

How about having the entire top flip back, hinged at the acute angle at the rear of the top. Either step over the side or still use the doors as well. Might make it easier to get into. Also gives the option of a Targa effect, with the top stored in the bed.

Jim


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Just noticed the points and logo on the the nose. Nice!

Will you have enough room for the pedals with the pinched firewall? My only perspective is T's with Transmissions which are tight. 
Also of concern is sitting half sideways can tweak your spine over the long term, Too many broken bucket seats messed with my back till I got everything aligned again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...How about having the entire top flip back, hinged at the acute angle at the rear of the top. Either step over the side or still use the doors as well. Might make it easier to get into. Also gives the option of a Targa effect, with the top stored in the bed...


That wouldn't help much because there is still the cage to squeeze around. The tubes frame the door opening, and the door bar(s) bisect(s) it, diagonally (if I can get in and out, I'll run a full "X" bar in the door openings). Using the small "T" door and "folding" top, I would have to literally snake my way under the top bar, poke my head and body up through the center, and then lower myself into the seat. That's an unnatural motion for the spine, and my back is already a little tweaked.

I also considered a roadster style cage, but prefer the traditional closed cabin style. With a funny car cage I could flip the top back, step through the door, and sit. The other issue, beside the fact that I like the other style more, is doing the roadster cage right would compromise the honey seat - I must have a honey seat! 






MJ Monterey said:


> Just noticed the points and logo on the the nose. Nice!...


Thanks. 





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Will you have enough room for the pedals with the pinched firewall? My only perspective is T's with Transmissions which are tight...


Yup. That's one of the reasons I love my direct-drive electric powertrain so much. The driveshaft tunnel is only 7-8" wide, as opposed to losing over a foot for a bellhousing. I actually have just enough space to drive with both feet if necessary. A person with a size twelve-wide, may not be able to though. 

Foot space at the pedals won't be reduced by the pinched firewall. I have it set up so that my feet drop down between the frame rails and driveshaft tunnel, and the body is just being pulled in to the inner width of the frame rails (it's currently as wide as the frame's outside dimension). It's kind of hard to describe, but the frame rails will kind of spill out from under the body there - you can kind of see this in the rendering.

The reasons are to give the body a more aggressive taper, and to highlight the arched firewall as a backdrop behind the motor. I made a poster board pattern of it and pinched it four inches - awesome! It really brings out the arched shape more, almost like it's an antique doorway. It also makes it match the narrow width of the motor and blower better; and it will kind of highlight the tubular crossmember and rear motor mount.





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Also of concern is sitting half sideways can tweak your spine over the long term, Too many broken bucket seats messed with my back till I got everything aligned again.


It doesn't seem like it but I will be sitting almost perfectly straight. The accelerator pedal is a tiny bit to the right of where it would be in a conventional front/rear vehicle, but still no discernable twist to reach it. I spent a lot of time addressing this issue, because I am very picky about ergonomics in my vehicles. I had a very solid (Cali car) 79 Camaro that I was working on when I started this project. After years of toiling to get it set up and on the road for testing (before body and paint) I found out I hated drving it! I sold it.

Actually, the funny thing is the windshield is what's going to be out of alignment! When I pinch the firewall the windshield goes in with it, and that may put the left edge pretty close to my line of sight. With the new door plan, I can keep the thickness of the aluminum posts to a minimum, and just wear glasses, I guess, to keep the wind out of my eyes.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> When I pinch the firewall the windshield goes in with it, and that may put the left edge pretty close to my line of sight. With the new door plan, I can keep the thickness of the aluminum posts to a minimum, and just wear glasses, I guess, to keep the wind out of my eyes.



Fashion over function. WWI aviator cap and goggles...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Fashion over function. WWI aviator cap and goggles...


Not really. The pinched firewall helps reduce frontal area a bit; and combined with a closed "land-speed" hood, and lexan side curtains, it might do alright with a few miles of salt to play on. 

WW1 aviator cap and goggles still highly desirable though!


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I was talking about the Goggles verses sunglasses.

The smaller wind screen and potential added aero was noted. Just did not want to even step foot in the Aero theory thread realm. 

You may need to invest in a scarf to keep the breeze off your neck as the top scoops it in though the window when you do not have the curtains on.  I'll leave the color choices up to you.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...Just did not want to even step foot in the Aero theory thread realm...


I know, and you just had to force me to say it!  Hey, I do have a track nose, belly pan, and small windscreen, on my fenderless, hood-less, "gable-roof", flying brick! 





MJ Monterey said:


> ...You may need to invest in a scarf to keep the breeze off your neck as the top scoops it in though the window when you do not have the curtains on.  I'll leave the color choices up to you.


Oh yeah!  Probably need some modern ear plugs too though to prevent the buffeting from trying to make my ear drums meet in the middle! 

Okay, being just a touch more serious, I'll more than likely need vent wings to divert the airflow around the back sides of the top. Not exactly an ideal aero treatment, but better than it being trapped inside the top.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Flow through ventilation. Just leave out the rear window so it will flow out into the low pressure area. It may be gale force but it will flow.


Ouch! Ouch! back under my rock........


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...It may be gale force but it will flow...


And if it isn't fast, it'll at least have the sensation of speed! 

_Driver and Navigator screaming at the tops of their lungs:_

_"How fast are we going!?"_

_"Sixty-five!"_

_"What!?!?!"_

_"Sixty-five!!"_

_"One hundred, sixty-five?"_

_"No Sixxxteee-five - the speed limit!!!"_




Hey, I come from a world where it's perfectly reasonable to make a 55 Chevy run 8s in the quarter, so...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After about eight hours of toying with the idea in CAD, I realized that stretching the wheelbase with longer control arms wasn't the way to go. 

Because the Inhaler's rear suspension is a triangulated four-link design, it's not just a matter of welding ends in longer pieces of tubing and screwing rod ends in them. They have to be designed and fabricated to end at the right points, while preserving the triangulation. That triangulation is what locates the rear end laterally and, to keep that working properly, the design was beginning to become pretty complicated. That was just looking at the physical aspects of the task - before even considering what it might do to the geometry that I spent so many hours on already! 

I came to the realization that a simple frame stretch makes a lot more sense. It'll also create even more ideal space for the battery packs (between the frame rails, and between the body and rear suspension). The rear frame stretch also appears to be a much easier task, because I don't have to work around the front suspension; two cuts, push the whole rear clip back 18", add metal. Now that that's settled...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> two cuts, push the whole rear clip back 18", add metal. Now that that's settled...


I guess sometimes simple solutions works just as well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Great Cover-Up!








Before I cut up my little chassis, I needed more proof of concept so I cut up one of the photos of it. After the wheels were pushed back, and a rough representation of the bed was mocked up (along with the roof and track nose) I started to realize something else that's been bugging me - the open motor compartment.

The point was to have the electric motor prominently on display at all times, but the design has evolved so far since that decision that it just doesn't work anymore. Even though the goal is still to build a super lightweight racer, the plan has evolved into much more than a minimalist style hot rod. The choice of things like a track nose, Woodlite headlights, a roof, and fully functional doors, kind of push the truck into a more sophisticated, more elegant, statement. If suggestions of sophistication and elegance are part of the plan, a hood is a must. Some type of venting (not a fan of louvers though) will likely be incorporated to enhance this.

If you really look, you can also see the new door shape.

I'm starting to like it. It actually looks like a little pickup to me now, instead of a little roadster with a mini pickup box hanging on the back of it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, I like that!

The hood looks a little matt due to the rendering but if that was mine it would have a little recovery crane on the back to be the fastest little tow truck in the west!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey, I like that!
> 
> The hood looks a little matt...


Thanks Woody.

I stopped to think, but I will probably add some more detail to this view eventually. A little more digital "airbrushing" on the hood will give it better shape, and I'll most likely incorporate the venting. It should have a bubble for the blower too, or possibly even just a rimmed opening for it and the stacks to protude into the atmosphere?

I meant to change the wheels too. This view begs for a set of steel smoothies, with brushed stainless center caps.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think seeing the stacks just sticking out a bit would be good.

Something about it says to me that the wheels should be a little like the ones on the rear, not too smooth looking and with high profile wide rubber with that fat drag slick look. That might be the '70's custom T look creaping up on me though.
Try it with the smooth wheels, I can't quite imagine that yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...That might be the '70's custom T look creaping up on me though...


Yeah, you're having a 70s flashback dude! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Try it with the smooth wheels, I can't quite imagine that yet.











I figured I should just get this done ASAP, because it's going to be wearing these wheels by next spring or summer. They're a cheap ($300-ish) way to get all the wheels matching, with something that fits the image, until it's time for forged alloy racing wheels.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah, that looks good, gives it a nice period touch.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm partial to the door rather than louvers in the side panels.

http://www.rootlieb.com/html_files/ma_1930_31_hds/pages/08_ma_30_31_hd_jpg.htm

Either that or a decorative panel or indentation.

Stacks out the top would be cool! But I always thought you should have just the top panel and leave the sides open.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I haven't started looking at old cars pics for options yet, but I like the doors - a lot. I might have to graft those into the rendering later to see what it looks like.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Gotta be honest, not loving the latest rendition.  It's gone from a radical rod to an old truck, with hubcaps no less. All that work on the motor mounts, the blower, and the plans for the firewall and you're going to cover them up?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Gotta be honest, not loving the latest rendition...


Sorry! 





JRP3 said:


> ...It's gone from a radical rod to an old truck, with hubcaps no less...


I know you didn't mean it that way, but I take that as a compliment.  It's still really, really, radical. I have a piece of tape on the door molding in my office that is 48" high. That's the height of the top rib on that roof! It allows me to mentally picture the truck sitting in here beside me (it would fit easily) and remain conscious of how all these ideas would play out in real life. What you will see in real life is a no-compromise race car that somehow manages to look like an old truck. That's been my goal since the first truck rendering, so thank you for the compliment! 





JRP3 said:


> ...All that work on the motor mounts, the blower, and the plans for the firewall and you're going to cover them up?


Yup. Hints of goodness on the outside, like the lights, suspension, trim, blower top and stacks poking out of the hood, will make people want to see what's in there.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sure in real life it will look pretty radical, but in comparison with previous versions it seems tame. I have to look at if from the perspective of someone who hasn't seen the whole process I guess. Personally I never liked the moon cap look on anything.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...Personally I never liked the moon cap look on anything.


The steelies and caps are an intermediate solution to having some kind of vintage style, matching, wheels - without wasting a lot of money. Unless I just fall in love with the 50's look, they'll eventually be replaced with the multi-spoke forged alloy race wheels in the previous renderings.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I sorta like the stealthy 'wolf in sheep's clothing' look especially with that flat black 'too good to be rat' finish.

Alloys with spokes would be good.

I think I would go with the previous 'odd wheels' version on my driveway with an electro-hydraulic period looking crane hidden in the pick up bed and hydraulic suspenson. I'd keep it satin black and understated.
But that is just me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I sorta like the stealthy 'wolf in sheep's clothing' look especially with that flat black 'too good to be rat' finish.
> 
> Alloys with spokes would be good.
> 
> ...


I actually like the mad-70's wheel/tire thing, but it's just not for this particular project. The towing thing is a really neat, fun, idea but totally out of context for the Inhaler. The flat black is actually a possibility, but I would lean more towards a weathered, faded, natural patina thing. I'll probably go for "pretty" paint in the end.

There's no reason you can't make your trike a fat-tired, flat black, tow truck though! 

Wouldn't a period antique tow rig have a cable operated boom?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like the doors!  (in the hood, for those who haven't been paying attention) 









Thanks MJ, that's perfect. Understated, but very effective.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think the long Inhaler looks awesome, part hot rod and part drag rail. I like how you can see the frame rails, and how the passenger cab bows out wider than the bed or hood parts. The only bad thing is it won't be as good an autocrosser.


toddshotrods said:


> I like the doors!  (in the hood, for those who haven't been paying attention)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Chevy did them in the early 30's and were a popular custom thing in the 40's and 50's Effective functional and clean. Faded in popularity in the 70's and 80's as the billet/bland/cookie cutter look became popular. Coming back slowly as the attention to detail group becomes more popular.


Had another thought last night. Have you considered a flat bed with stake sides? I would think it would not be difficult to con, Um get a wood worker to kit the wood inlays for the bed and make the sides. And with the sides removed you can remove aero drag and generate a little down force with the bed.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> There's no reason you can't make your trike a fat-tired, flat black, tow truck though!
> 
> Wouldn't a period antique tow rig have a cable operated boom?


I have been tempted to have a pick up bed, not sure the 'honey' would like riding in it though!
Cable boom would be period but a hydraulic powered period style boom would be stealthy!



DavidDymaxion said:


> I think the long Inhaler looks awesome, part hot rod and part drag rail. I like how you can see the frame rails, and how the passenger cab bows out wider than the bed or hood parts.


That's the thing that make it grab me, the lines work for that.

Love the hood vents and the way the beading around them matches the beading on the body and the bed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> ...Had another thought last night. Have you considered a flat bed with stake sides?...


I'm pretty sure there were some sketches of something like that, but I don't think I ever posted them. I really love the "A" style pickup box, and decided on it early in the change to a truck design.





Woodsmith said:


> I have been tempted to have a pick up bed, not sure the 'honey' would like riding in it though!...


Think Transformers man, a couple flip-n-tuck operations and the boom and bed make room for a honey. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Cable boom would be period but a hydraulic powered period style boom would be stealthy!...


I just imagined a small electric motor driving the cable reel via a bunch of oily open gears - all Woodcrafted! 






Woodsmith said:


> ...That's the thing that makes it grab me, the lines work for that.
> 
> Love the hood vents and the way the beading around them matches the beading on the body and the bed.


The little rascal has come a long way huh guys? Thanks for all your opinions, comments, ideas, and suggestions. At this rate, we'll have a running truck in a few years!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The little rascal has come a long way huh guys? Thanks for all your opinions, comments, ideas, and suggestions. At this rate, we'll have a running truck in a few years!


Well, you're sure beating my track record.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> Well, you're sure beating my track record.


Well, grab some tools and get going man! 

The funny thing is to be where I am with the Inhaler in hot rodding is not at all uncommon. Many guys spend 5-10 years building their toys. I've even noticed that it takes the best shops in the world that long sometimes to build their ultimate, seven-figure, super hot rods. Even when money is not an issue, it's necessary to step back and breathe every once in a while. There's a very thin line between an automotive project being relaxing and enjoyable and burdensome and stressful.

A scratch-built vehicle is very intense just due to the never-ending list of options and possibilities. Every decision you make leads to ten more that must be determined!  I love the challenge, because design is my favorite part of the whole process. When I finally got my shop built, I asked myself "what is the thing that you do, that you would be competent and comfortable competing with the best of the best in?" When I realized the answer I sold the shop!


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Well, grab some tools and get going man!


Now I'm spamming your thread with OT again, but, well, blame yourself... 

It's over 2 years ago since I decided to build an EV, not from scratch but "just" converting an existing car. I started to hang around here, asked a lot of questions, considered a donor and realised there were only one controller I could possibly buy, the Zilla 1k. Then Zilla went off-market and I grudgingly realised that I would have to settle for a Curtis.

That's when some madhatter showed up in the forum, dissected a blown Kelly in a thread and announced that he'd build a new, no nonsense controller to show how it should be done. I started to PM that guy and eventually I got dragged into the project as the SPD.

After that I've had absolutely no spare time for my own EV-project. But, well, maybe next year I could start planning again. Maybe...


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> There's a very thin line between an automotive project being relaxing and enjoyable and burdensome and stressful.
> 
> A scratch-built vehicle is very intense just due to the never-ending list of options and possibilities. Every decision you make leads to ten more that must be determined!  I love the challenge, because design is my favorite part of the whole process. When I finally got my shop built, I asked myself "what is the thing that you do, that you would be competent and comfortable competing with the best of the best in?" When I realized the answer I sold the shop!


Tell me about it!

Sometimes I wonder if our threads are less EV and more vehicle design.

I am having to take an enforced break for a while due to work commitments and lousy time tabling of classes. 
Gives me plenty of time to 'step back' and reassess the process.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> Now I'm spamming your thread with OT again, but, well, blame yourself......


Dude, after 79 pages  this has become more of a clubhouse than a build thread!  Seriously though, I love hearing a little about the projects of the regulars here - kind of adds perspective to your posts.





Qer said:


> ...After that I've had absolutely no spare time for my own EV-project. But, well, maybe next year I could start planning again. Maybe...


You're going to stop and work on your own EV with those angry mobs of hopeful EVers chasing you guys around begging/demanding Jr, Big Sol, and AC versions - silly guy! 

I really hope you can though. Your accomplishments would probably be even that much sweeter if you could taste them for yourself.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Sometimes I wonder if our threads are less EV and more vehicle design...


No doubt, with us Woody.  The EV aspect gives us a nice platform with very intriguing design possibilities. I've been tempted to go back to ICE numerous times, because of the current state of EV drag racing's mentality, but no ICE powertrain I can put in it opens the doors of opportunity like this little electric motor! 

I've literally been on Craigslist, found the engine/trans combo, and developed at least a basic plan for converting back to ICE. Then, I start digging into the details, and comparing the potential results to this electric plan and, hands-down, electric wins. Even from the perspective of marketing (since this is primarily a marketing tool) the electric powertrain just works so much better. It's not because it's green, able to save the Earth in a single charge, or as socially responsible as grandma sitting on the church pew on Sunday morning - it's just freakin cool to design around and work with!


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You're going to stop and work on your own EV with those angry mobs of hopeful EVers chasing you guys around begging/demanding Jr, Big Sol, and AC versions - silly guy!


No, I don't think I could stop coding for EVnetics and there will always be something new to blow u... I mean, develope. 

What I'm hoping for is that I can drop my current day time job and either work part time or doing consultant gigs to help pay the bills. We'll see, but somehow I need to figure out a way to solve the time puzzle, 'cause a full time job + EVnetics doesn't leave much time for other things.



toddshotrods said:


> I really hope you can though. Your accomplishments would probably be even that much sweeter if you could taste them for yourself.


Yeah, I know. But to not overdo it too much I'm pondering choosing a simple, or at least as simple as possible, conversion that shouldn't take too much time to pull off. Perhaps a S-10 pickup? Seems pretty straight forward with lots of room for the pack.

Now I just need a six pack spare time. And a car, of course...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...Perhaps a S-10 pickup? Seems pretty straight forward with lots of room for the pack...


That's probably what I would pick for a relatively painless conversion. Hope you get to it sooner than later.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More art.  I added the blower and stacks, roll cage, steering wheel, toned the shine down on the center caps, and sprayed some rust converter on the frame. 








I'm pretty much ready to resume working on it now, but am having trouble find a new place to work out of. I am not comfortable/happy with the previous arrangement. I have been shopping around for a shop or garage that I can pay/barter for some occasional floor time in, but no luck so far. Either the person is leary of me due to not knowing me, or I am suspicious of what may be expected with making a barter deal. I've finally learned my lesson about doing deals with "we'll work something out" hanging over my head. 

Also, trying to find a new place to live. That could complicate things, and possibly hinder my progress, because I may have to put in it a storage place if I can't find something with two garage spaces available. I have my eye on an apartment that has an attached double car garage, but I'm not sold on it. It would be sweet to have my toys parked side-by-side, and be able to tinker with them until the wee hours of the morning. I wouldn't be able to do any fabrication work there, but stuff like wiring and hand tool work would be okay.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like!

The stacks coming through the hood makes it more interesting and pulls you to it.

Have you considered painted GM style Rally Wheels With a simple center cap?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I like!...


Thanks MJ. I'm finally starting to like it myself. 





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Have you considered painted GM style Rally Wheels With a simple center cap?


Not really, because they're pretty much 70s era wheels. I want to keep everything as "old" as possible. I'm really not happy with the 50s/60s era smoothies but they're cheap and still have a vintage rod feel. Eventually the wheels MUST be forged alloy racing wheels. These are placeholders.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Artilleries? with custom caps of course 
http://wheelvintiques.myshopify.com/products/artillery


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Artilleries?...


They only come in one rear-drive size AFAIK. That was the second reason I chose the smoothies. The Inhaler has a positive offset (FWD style) front wheel, and negative offset (deep dish) style rear wheel. There aren't many off-the-shelf wheel styles available to fit that combination. The more expensive forged and billet suppliers can accomodate, no problem, but the smoothies were one of the only choices for something vintage and cheap.

Something like that artillery wheel could happen when I go forged, if I can find someone I like working with to cut custom centers. Of course doing a CAD model is no problem, and getting the supplier I purchase the hoops from to sell a set of unmachined forged centers shouldn't be too hard. The issue is getting them machined. We'll see when that time comes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Still working through design issues. Maximum performance complicates things, because you have to design so far out in the future (to allow "room" to reach theoretical goals).

I've been kicking this motor issue around for a while, and am leaning towards a TransWarp 11HV. It would be an easy swap for the GE, give me the RPM range I need, is already setup for direct drive, and has been proven to be a contender (thanks to Cro). That would solve the issue of needing to design for a possible switch to siamese 9s later.

I also realized that with the new 108" wheelbase plan, I was going to end up with a ridiculously long driveshaft. Luckily, that's already been addressed by the driveline companies. Inland Empire is well versed in building two piece shafts, and has a serious center support bearing:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Inland Empire is well versed in building two piece shafts, and has a serious center support bearing:


I wondered what that was when I opened the thread. I sorta kept looking at it and wondering. Then I read your post.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I wondered what that was when I opened the thread. I sorta kept looking at it and wondering. Then I read your post.


It's a syllineum dyfroopulator. 

We really do think alike, that's what I normally how I would see a post like that!  How ya been old friend?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's a syllineum dyfroopulator.
> 
> We really do think alike, that's what I normally how I would see a post like that!  How ya been old friend?


Well with no scale to compare it to I was wondering if your motor sat in the hole in the middle of it, or if it was like a Dyson fan, or if it was some kind of toy, of the adult variety!

I've been stressed and over worked with no time to do anything other then college stuff and a few paying jobs to make ends meet. College still haven't paid me yet.

I have found time to have another think on the trike and I think I will just have a direct drive from the 11" motor to the BMW final drive and then make my own swing arm to suit. The drive shaft will be simple and the ratio will allow wheel spin if I can get 110lbs-ft from the motor and 80mph at 3200rpm.

Thats as far as it goes.

There may be a 'honey' on the horizon.
I was telling her about the trike (she rode a recumbent pedal powered trike across France last year and was fascinated by my plans for a giant electric version) and mentioned that it was to be a great single seater until someone mentioned I needed a honey seat. 
She agreed that it would be better as a single seater, like her trike. 
Then I told her that the passenger seat would be sitting on top of a buzzy, vibrating 11" motor and her eyes lit up and the honey seat was reinstated!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Then I told her that the passenger seat would be sitting on top of a buzzy, vibrating 11" motor and her eyes lit up and the honey seat was reinstated!


No wonder you saw the center support bearing and thought:


Woodsmith said:


> ...I was wondering... if it was some kind of toy, of the adult variety!...


 Good luck with the honey. 





Woodsmith said:


> Well with no scale to compare it to I was wondering if your motor sat in the hole in the middle of it...


Wow, that would be a big motor mount!  How could you ever think I would deign something that outrageous!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Good luck with the honey.


 Thank you. She is very intelligent and likes steam engines and mechanical stuff so there is hope.



toddshotrods said:


> Wow, that would be a big motor mount!  How could you ever think I would design something that outrageous!


Well, I had doubts, the edges were a little sharp for your style but then if the OD was 11" it could have been some sort of centre mount to siamese a pair of motors. Stranger things have been pondered!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Slowly inching my way back into working on the truck. I purchased a couple vintage Ford parts to help sort out some design details, and get me back into some good old fashioned hand fabrication. I realized that I was going completely overboard with the CAD stuff. I want the Inhaler to be a mixture a every type of design and fabrication technique possible.

First, a Model A gauge panel. I'm not really sure what's going in it yet, but it's a must-have part. I like the oval speedo hole, so I will definitely make a gauge to go there. I want a bubble lens though, instead of the flat lens of the orignal gauge. I'm thinking about antique looking switches in the side holes, though they're not really needed (more on that below). I have no clue what will fill the other positions. There will be some serious fab work done on this part, and it will probably be nickel plated. Gotta fix that flat spot on the top too. I didn't see that in the (Ebay) auction pic.

















I also bought a Model T steering wheel center. In a T it would be mounted with this side facing the driver:








I am going to flip it, creating a dished steering wheel. I'm going to shorten the spokes for a 13 or 14" diameter rim, and reshape the ends. I'm thinking about a CAD/CNC/hand-fabbed process for that. I would model the ends, have them milled, weld them in, and hand finish it. Requires MUCH less time than milling the whole thing from a solid block (for such a small piece),and it saves a little chunk of change.









The top of the spokes will be filled with switch panels. I have a few ideas, but the actual switch buttons will most likely look like stainless rivet heads. That's why there won't be any need for actual dash switches. I want pretty much every function on the Inhaler to be controlled from the steering wheel. The switches will be wired, with a contact ring on the bottom of a shaft (with wiring passing through it, of course). That allows me to keep the hub small and antique-appearing, instead of a huge modern hub to conceal a wireless transmitter. That hub will be a machined aluminum part, with a spring loaded quick-disconnect. I have to figure out how many switches and wires there will be, find a plug, and then start building everything around it.

I think I've stated before that the goal is for the Inhaler to be a really high-tech vehicle, that appears to be completely old school low-tech. The steering wheel, gauge panel, pedal assembly, and seats are all that will be inside. I want them to all look old and relatively simple.

What I really need to make all that play out exactly as I have it in my head is heads-up display (HUD), instead of conventional gauges. Some of the Fiero guys were working on adapting HUDs from newer GM cars, but I don't remember how successful they may or may not have been. I have to look into it, and into whether it can be hacked to display EV-related information. Anyone know of an aftermarket HUD unit? Ultimately, I would love to have some trick animated graphics, like the Volt has, playing out on the windshield.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I like the T steering wheel idea, I wonder if I could do a variation of that in my EV Buggy? If the rivets holding the stock keyed center where knocked out perhaps a Grant VW steering wheel adapter hub could be cut down and riveted in place of it. Does that look possible to you? 

I don't think I'd flip it, I plan to use the ignition switch start position to turn the neon on and off and then wire the lights to always come on when the vehicle is on. Right now I have two toggle switches hidden under the dash and a shallow dish Grant wheel in the buggy. I'm always looking for little things to go with my Mustang tail lights and Corvette gas filler covering the plug. Another twisted thought running through my head was extending the shifter handle, rat fink style, and putting a piston shift knob on top with a red circle and slash on the face of the piston. (it's not like I shift much)


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> I like the T steering wheel idea, I wonder if I could do a variation of that in my EV Buggy? If the rivets holding the stock keyed center where knocked out perhaps a Grant VW steering wheel adapter hub could be cut down and riveted in place of it. Does that look possible to you?...


Thanks. I don't see any reason that wouldn't work. You'd just have to get it centered properly and drill for new rivets or bolts. If I didn't have to be so difficult, that's probably what I would do.  Whenever I get around to removing the hub, I'll post the diameter of the center hole and and spacing of the T bolt circle. There are decent T steering wheels (complete) on Ebay, for reasonable. They're pretty big, at 17" diameter, by my standards.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After a little preliminary research, I have found that an HUD display isn't going to be too hard. Animation may be a future goal, but some basic display of information shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. Late model GM HUD projectors are dirt cheap - like $50. They work off of the factory gauge cluster, but I would try to figure out what type of signals it sends to the projector and replicate that first, then look at hiding that bulky cluster, if absolutely necessary.









I am going to get one soon and open it up. Since the Inhaler doesn't have a conventional dash to hide the projector in, I want to mount it on the ceiling. To flip the images back the right way, I am hoping to be able to flip the little projector (indicator in the diagram) upside down.









This also gives me something to fill the top hole in the gauge cluster - the HUD switch.








It looks like I should be able to replace the external ring with a cast aluminum reproduction fairly easily. Hopefully that will make the whole thing look antique. If not, and if it's too much work to make a metal center button and knob, I can do a metal leaf/clear process on the existing parts.

It does speed, rpm, turn, check, & high beam indicators, oil pressure, coolant temp, and fuel. It would be nice to find someone who could hack that to make it more EV specific; _i.e._ no oil can or gas pump. If I switch to a Warp 11HV, a little more range on the tach would also be nice.











I think this also finalizes the dash gauge pod plans. HUD control switch, top; main power on/off switch, left; emergency cut-off/panic button, right; and an antique-looking state-of-charge meter, bottom. The panic button will most likely be a push to disconnect mushroom head, attached to a heavy-duty cable, attached to a mechanical battery disconnect switch behind the passenger seat. If I'm feeling really paranoid, I can also have a secondary way of enabling it by reaching behind the seat. The mushroom head would be red anodized aluminum, with "STOP" or "KILL" or something etched in it.

The plan for the state-of-charge is pretty awesome. As mentioned, I want a bubble lens oval gauge. Behind that lens I will probably do some kind of trick 3D battery that fills and empties (light) with the pack, and a small digital percentage that lights up under it. That sounds more complicated than it is. It's really a digital SOC gauge with an animated, light show, accompaniment.

I also started doing some clay modeling and figured out that I can get three buttons on each spoke of the steering wheel. That means I have twelve spoke-mounted controls, plus whatever I put in the center. If I need a lot more than twelve, the center could be a mode-toggle switch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well flipping the display upside down doesn't look like it will be a problem at all:




 
...and, it's capable of displaying a lot more information that I thought could.




 
It's pretty sweet that I'll be able to move the display on the windshield, adjust the brightness, and flip through pages of information.  There's also the option of replacing that little indicator panel with something more sophisticated later... Nice.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Head up display would be so cool!
I want one!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You'd have to mount a windshield on the tractor


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You'd have to mount a windshield on the tractor


That's funny!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You'd have to mount a windshield on the tractor


You owe me a keyboard!
Just spat mince pie all over it!

That's got me laughing and coughing up crumbs.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that JRP3 is done being a stand-up comic, and you're busy cleaning your keyboard, and hacking up pie from your lungs:

It would be pretty sweet on the trike. The Grand Prix gauge panels are rounded and would look pretty neat in a tandem-two-seater, if that's the way you're going. If you get the whole gauge setup, interior wiring harness, and HUD, that would all plug together and you would just need to figure out how to send the right signals to the gauges - I think. It's always that simple right?  Maybe you could make some overlays and a cover panel to get the vintage look you wanted. Or mount the gauge cluster in back for the honey to watch (like a navigator) and you enjoy the HUD and a few old school analog gauges.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yep, that's the idea.
I am going to see how you sort out your HUD set up.

I think I would like both systems, dials and HUD. Not sure how effective the HUD would be in low level Sun and rain on the inside of the screen.

In the meantime I have been learning to use Autocad 2010 at college and have drawn the DE cap for that 11" motor. I am also planning to try and weld a shaft drive swing arm over Christmas if I get the time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I am going to see how you sort out your HUD set up...


You have that much time and patience huh? 





Woodsmith said:


> ...In the meantime I have been learning to use Autocad 2010 at college and have drawn the DE cap for that 11" motor. I am also planning to try and weld a shaft drive swing arm over Christmas if I get the time.


Isn't CAD awesome?!  Can't wait to see some renderings and pics!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You have that much time and patience huh?


Yup!



toddshotrods said:


> Isn't CAD awesome?!  Can't wait to see some renderings and pics!


I'll see if I can send you the file and see what you think. Very early days, only done four classes so far.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I bow in your general direction once again! Awesome stuff! Do you think there would be room to stuff in a cell phone display and project that as a HUD?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I bow in your general direction once again! Awesome stuff! Do you think there would be room to stuff in a cell phone display and project that as a HUD?


Thanks David.  Do you mean stuff it in with the factory unit, or as a replacement? There are some youtube videos with people using iphones as HUD projectors. They said there's an app for it, of course!  IIRC, it's only like $2.99 for the app.

I also forgot to mention that there's a film that can be applied to the windshield which improves visibility. On factory cars they incorporate it between the glass laminations. For the Inhaler, since the windshield will be a small, inexpensive, flat piece I can probably afford to replace it occasionally if it gets scratched or hazy from use.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been doing some chicken-scratching in clay for the steering wheel design.








Hopefully, you can see through the courseness of the clay to what I have in mind. Eventually I will detail some of this enough to pull molds from, but the real work will be done in resin. Right now, I'm leaning towards a CAD/CNC rim, cast top half of the center, and CAD/CNC/weld-in steel ends for the rear half of the center. Anyway I go about it, there will probably be over 300 hours in the complete assembly. Why all the hoopla over a steering wheel? This is the command center for the entire vehicle. It will control nearly everything, but look like all it can do is turn and honk.

Starting with honk: The center knob is the key to the whole thing. Ideally, and probably eventually, this will be a seven-way master control. Four-way, joystick-style, rocker; two-way, spring-loaded, twist (counter and clockwise); and push (momentary). Then, as mentioned previously, the twelve rivet heads in the spokes will be momentary switch buttons. Some of them will be dedicated function switches, and some will be assignable by the center control.

The middle button on the spokes at 3 & 9 o'clock will be for the turn signal/emergency. Using one of the aftermarket controllers, how long you hold them determines how long the signal flashes. Hold both and the emergency flashers activate. The center of the 12 o'clock spoke will likely be the horn button. That leaves me nine positions for various driver-related functions (lights, wiper, etc.)

The key to the whole system is a more sophisticated image generator in the projector that will allow me to see what I'm doing on the steering wheel, and monitor all the various vehicle systems. It's a progressive plan for a really high tech vehicle that looks really simple; but I don't want to have to change the appearance every time I need to incorporate more tech. I have a LOT of time designing stuff like this, and simultaneously trying to make it all seem like Henry did it almost a century ago.

Working on this is actually boosting my enthusiasm for the project, because it's reminding me why I started to like street rods in the first place. I love organic design, and 20s and 30s cars were loaded with it. Everything just kind of flowed, and swerved, and blended, its way into place. Even simple parts like the Model T steering wheel center I started with have these characteristics, and it's fun to pick up on them and keep rolling where Henry had to stop because of financial constraints.

I've actually been working on this steering wheel idea for a few years now, and finally getting close to making it a reality. I came across the idea for the finger bumps, and sculpted concave inner surface, while looking at vintage wheels on Ebay. I found this old Jag steering wheel. I almost bought it until I realized I could just create my own version!  I am using twelve large finger bumps, with four of them being cut into the new ends for the spokes. So four will be nickel-plated steel and the other eight anodized black aluminum. The aluminum top, control center, will be natural (sand-cast) aluminum; probably clear anodized. The rear hub will also be natural finish. The rim fits onto the rear half, then is sandwiched and clamped down by the top half.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

Interesting idea as long as you can poke the correct button while turning. 

I take it the master switch in the middle doesn't rotate?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

drivin98 said:


> Interesting idea as long as you can poke the correct button while turning.
> 
> I take it the master switch in the middle doesn't rotate?


I thought about that, but then realized that your really don't make a lot of adjustments in the middle of turning. Maybe in the middle a gradual curve (_e.g._ on the highway), but then the steering wheel has barely moved from center. Most of the functions are for vehicle setup, which would be done at a stop or slower speeds. With the electric motor and drive drive, once it's dialed in, it will be more a matter of just enjoying the ride and monitoring the systems. Also, remember this is really a race car - blasting through the autocross course or down the dragstrip isn't the time to try to find buttons... 

The master switch will rotate, but not freely. It will be heavily spring-loaded to the center, so that light pressure will move the switch in the 4-way, momentary, rocker positions. It will take a deliberate effort to use the twist feature. Sounds funny but even toying with the clay mock-up knob, it's seems kind of natural. If I find that I don't need that feature, I can easily eliminate it, or save it for later (by locking it out) if I have trouble getting the kinks worked out.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I thought about that, but then realized that your really don't make a lot of adjustments in the middle of turning. ...


Very true. And the times have been few when I've wanted to adjust cruise control on a turned wheel. Also, racing is no time to use turn signals. Or even the horn.

I do like this 7-function button concept though. Very interesting.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

drivin98 said:


> Very true. And the times have been few when I've wanted to adjust cruise control on a turned wheel. Also, racing is no time to use turn signals. Or even the horn...


Exactly. 




drivin98 said:


> ...I do like this 7-function button concept though. Very interesting.


Thanks. If you take a look at some of the new luxury and luxury-sport vehicles being sold they have a knob like this on the console or dash. The first, and probably the most famous (infamous?) is the BMW I-Drive system. The magazine editors haven't been too positive about it, but the manufacturers keep implementing them, so the owners must be somewhat okay with them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the problem with the early I drives was that you had to navigate through menus to do simple functions. I assume they've improved, but for a normal car I want to just push a dedicated button or twist a knob, not scroll through menus. To me it was technology in search of a purpose.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ..but for a normal car I want to just push a dedicated button or twist a knob, not scroll through menus...


Generally, I agree with you but have you seen how many buttons that creates on some of today's luxury vehicles, loaded with all the bells and whistles?  I can't recall what it was but I saw an interior pic of one once that left me jaw-dropped and speechless. The text on the buttons also gets smaller the more there are, meaning those of us who need reading glasses just for fine print would need to wear them (or bifocals) just to operate the vehicle (until you finally memorize all that crap).




JRP3 said:


> ...To me it was technology in search of a purpose.


What I just posted is the purpose. It was intended to make it much simpler to operate all the features, while simultaneously cleaning up the interior.

That is the main point on the Inhaler - to allow full control, with the appearance of a simple vintage interior.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Generally, I agree with you but have you seen how many buttons that creates on some of today's luxury vehicles, loaded with all the bells and whistles?


Actually no I haven't. I'm of the mindset that many vehicles are overloaded with useless crap, but I'm probably in the minority. I have yet to hook up A/C and heat in my EV, so I'm a bit of a caveman I guess 


> What I just posted is the purpose. It was intended to make it much simpler to operate all the features, while simultaneously cleaning up the interior.


Sure, I was just pointing out that the early I drives seemed to make things more complicated and therefor failed in their intended purpose.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Actually no I haven't. I'm of the mindset that many vehicles are overloaded with useless crap, but I'm probably in the minority. I have yet to hook up A/C and heat in my EV, so I'm a bit of a caveman I guess ...


I'm right there with you - I have my caveman club too. I drive a 1991 Accord with no options, other than A/C. The belt isn't even hooked up to the compressor anymore, and I don't remember ever even using A/C in one of my vehicles - most probably didn't even have it.

I would like to have power windows and power locks, and a cavewoman to drag around by her long hair!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

drivin98 said:


> And the times have been few when I've wanted to adjust cruise control on a turned wheel.


< Oh no, you triggered my rant mode >

I mostly use the "Set"-button; Find a good speed, lock it. The main problem I see with most cruise control (and the major reason for me to tweak the speed) is that most cruise controls SUCK! You accelerate to the speed you want, press set and nothing happens. So you end up going all woodpecker on the set button, with result in that it locks to the wrong speed and then you have to adjust the speed in small increments or decrements until you, hopefully, achieve the speed you prefer.

I REALLY don't understand how it can be so hard to do a working cruise control. We've been doing control loop systems (mechanical, electrical, digital, pneumatical etc) for over a century, yet I still haven't seen a cruise control (or a heating system for houses) that just works without driving you nuts in the process. As a software engineer I'd be ashamed of releasing crap like that and the guy that wrote the software for the heat pump in our house should get a life time employment at McD or somewhere else where he can't do more than minimal harm to the humanity.

< rant off >

It's monday btw. Hate those.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

THR: Your steering wheel controls is an awesome idea! I like it! I like knobs better than sliders, if you hit a bump it cancels out on a knob (you need to move one side up and the other down), but on a slider it jumps on you.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Qer said:


> I mostly use the "Set"-button; Find a good speed, lock it. The main problem I see with most cruise control (and the major reason for me to tweak the speed) is that most cruise controls SUCK! You accelerate to the speed you want, press set and nothing happens. So you end up going all woodpecker on the set button, with result in that it locks to the wrong speed and then you have to adjust the speed in small increments or decrements until you, hopefully, achieve the speed you prefer.


The cruise control in our old car was okay, when it started out. You press the "Set" button, then take your foot off the gas. As the car starts to slow, the CC notices, and presses the gas for you, taking you back up to speed.

The issue with ours is that occasionally, for no apparent reason, the CC will get slower and slower, until you have to put your own foot on the gas to get up to speed again, which will, of course, cancel the CC. Which is fine, until it recovers, switches back on, and takes the gas pedal away from you (literally, the pedal suddenly moves down to the floor while your foot stays where it is. It's a REALLY eerie feeling!) speeding up to 10kph (or more) higher than you set it originally.

And before you ask, no, it wasn't a Toyota, it was a '89 Chevy Corsica (With it's 2.8l V6 replaced with a '91 3.1l V6 engine in it, for some reason).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> THR: Your steering wheel controls is an awesome idea! I like it! I like knobs better than sliders, if you hit a bump it cancels out on a knob (you need to move one side up and the other down), but on a slider it jumps on you.


Thanks again David. I've been working more (mentally) on the center master control switch. By toying with the clay knob a little more, I realized that I can isolate the different functions relatively easily. I can make the knob itself two pieces. The external ribbed section would be the main control interface. Light pressure to either side or up/down would work the joystick-like toggle function. The smooth center cap would actually be a momentary button head (matching the rivet-head switches in the spokes). So, sort of like using a mouse, you can toggle through screens with one finger or thumb and make selections with the other by tapping the button. If I ever need a PC-like right-click option, the innermost right spoke spoke button is right under my middle or index finger.

As noted, I played around with the clay knob, scrolling through and selecting items from imaginary menus, and it's really neat and intuitive. The switch from finger-thumb to thumb-finger, and back, is really natural. After using it for a while, I doubt any thought would be needed to perform any task. Sorry about the menus JRP3. 

By pulling the external ribbed portion towards me, it would lock out the joystick action and enable the momentary rotary function. This way the spring loading wouldn't have to be excessively strong to prevent triggering it while using the joystick. I want this one for a dedicated control for the forced-air system speed. I want to be able to quickly switch through a handful of preset modes, without scrolling through menus to access control. There will be a temperature controlled (based on motor temp) electronic override that automatically increases the air flow, but I want full control othrwise. This is my toy. With a cold motor, I have my choice of silently creeping away, imitating a jet plane taxiing before take-off, or idling and revving like an F1 car, etc. I can also lock it on full blast after torturing the motor through and autocross course, or down the dragstrip.

A man has to have cool toys.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> ...it was a '89 Chevy Corsica (With it's 2.8l V6 replaced with a '91 3.1l V6 engine in it, for some reason).


Sounds like the vacuum modulator was going bad. If it had a small leak in the diaphragm it would likely bleed off and lose speed as it slowly release the acclerator on the carb or throttle body. Then, later when they finally dry out and crack the cruise stops working altogther.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Sounds like the vacuum modulator was going bad. If it had a small leak in the diaphragm it would likely bleed off and lose speed as it slowly release the acclerator on the carb or throttle body. Then, later when they finally dry out and crack the cruise stops working altogther.


Great. So that's one more reason to add to the list of why we scrapped it.

And, before you ask why I didn't convert it, it had a massive laundry list of faults, including (but not limited to): Leaking auto transmission, dead shocks/struts (Front and read), leaking power steering system, sticking brakes, leaking door seals, cracked windscreen, and many many more problems. It was cheaper to scrap the car and buy a (nearly) new one than it would have cost to repair it.

Anyways, this is getting way off-topic, sorry for hijacking your thread.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I always use New Year's as a marker to assess progress and set goals. My idea of a great New Year's Eve is to sit at sit at home working on business and personal plans.

For the Inhaler, 2010 has been a pretty good year. The pile of parts were finally transformed into a rolling chassis, body parts were purchased and received, the first of my CAD designs (the rear motor mount) was turned into a real part, and my understanding and appreciation of EV technology and methodology grew exponentially.

The one thing I really enjoy about the design process is something from each stage usually makes it through to the final product, even if the new idea is ultimately discarded. I decided for 2011, that I want to take a few steps backwards. This was the first EV drawing, the original idea:









The original plan was an Indy Car inspired - CAR!  It eventually grew a bed and became progressively taller and less "fluid". The beauty of the Model T though is that one basic design was the foundation of many models, from runabouts, to sedans, to trucks. So, in order to return to the basic roots of the project I simply need to change the tail section from a truck bed to a turtle deck...









To get back to the original "spirit" of the project, I also channeled the body down over the frame rails, and returned to the short wheelbase. The long wheelbase was in part to allow a theoretically higher performance envelope, and in part to balance the stubbiness of the growing truck proportions. The chassis is out there in the garage, already setup for this, and the body hasn't been permanently mounted or modified yet. The only change necessary to make it a reality is the turtle deck, and a couple additional cuts (beyond what was already planned) on the body. I will probably order the turtle deck next month.






*What survived:*

Obviously the traditional T influenced top
The full hood with doors
The 50s theme with smoothie wheels.
The full NHRA-spec roll cage
*What's different:*

Because the body is channeled the blower would stick too far up out of the hood, so the plan is to mount it in front of the motor. The stacks will be on an intake tube that runs back over the motor, and there will be tubes that run into the comm ports down low. I have to work on the design for all this to make it neat and clean. Same concept, same function, just packaged differently. That long intake tube gives me ideas for increased resonance. All the tubes will probably be carbon fiber and aluminum.
The performance goals. I am shooting for 1000lbs, via a 200lb LiPo (RC) pack, and a power-to-weight ratio on the other side of automotive sanity. My original plan was to build a caged race car that gave me the same thrill my dragbikes used to - I'm back to that. I'm also leaning towards a Warp 11HV to eventually replace my GE, because it will give me a matching level of top end insanity. As for the 90" wheelbase - we'll just have to see at what point it becomes a liability. That little Toyota Corolla is running 8.0s @ 179+mph, and Shelby Cobras have been flying on the dragstrip and salt flats for years on 90".


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like that first sketch.
I can see parts of it working for my trike, a big rear suspension set up pushing a two seat body along.

I have been playing with the body on mine looking back at the Morgan influences but not wanting the same back end. You may have inspired me to lose the back body altogether (aside from what I need to be legal).

I have even been thinking of moving the motor back up to the front again, stood vertically behind the nosecone and driving down onto a bevel box to get the prop right under the floor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like that first sketch....


Thanks, I forgot it ever existed until I started digging around in the history of this project (digital folders). It was the original inspiration.

I'll reply to the rest in your thread so the info will be with your project - I like some of youre ideas.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finally feel like I'm back on track with my original goals for this project. I was waayyy off track, and the whole thing was starting to not make sense.

It is supposed to be first and foremost a marketing tool for my services, with everything else falling in line behind that mandate. I went too far with CAD and representing the EV world.
As much as I love CAD, it's just a single aspect of what I do - I just started getting carried away because it's so much fun! 
As much as I have become fond of EVs, the real reason I am building one is it makes my design work better than any ICE can.
The performance goals were supposed to be supporting cast, not the "point". Going fast will help validate the design, but won't "make" it.
The original reason for the 90" wheelbase wasn't autocrossing, it was to have a marketing tool that was small enough to be displayed almost anywhere. Standard booth sizes start at 10x10' and, with the 90" wb, the Inhaler would fit in one. That makes it possible for me to setup exhibits very economically, and take a chance on events that otherwise might be cost prohibitive. A 10x20 gives room for a full exhibit, with tables, etc, beside the Inhaler.
The original reason for the 1200lb weight goal was to make it so light that even my 4cyl daily driver could pull it to and from events - again increasing the opportunity to economically market myself.
The journey has been very meaningful, and very productive, though because all the side roads I explored are going to contribute to it being a better marketing tool; plus, an awesome EV, and awesome little race car. LiPo gives the opportunity to come in even lighter than my original 1200lb goal, Warp 11HV gives me higher top end and more flexibility, etc. I also love that top and the closed hood with vent doors. Those are all developments from the journey to this point.







*The plan for 2011*
There is a fiberglass company here in Ohio that I will be purchasing the turtle deck from. They can have it done in three weeks from the time I order and I can pick it up, saving truck shipping costs on a 30-40lb part. I will probably order it sometime in January, so it can be installed by spring.
Between now and late spring, all my concentration will be on getting the bodywork all modified and mounted. The main body first (and soon), the track nose and hood, the top, and the turtle deck.
After that I need to do coil-overs and brakes to get the chassis working.
Hopefully by summer, I want to get it running with a complete 48v setup. This will allow me to drive it at events, get it registered, and begin evaluating my chassis and the LiPo batteries. I can purchase cheap 48v chargers, dc-dc, etc, from Ebay to build a complete system really cheaply and start experimenting with how well LiPo does with different charge/discharge rates, with/without BMS, etc, before spending thousands on a full pack. I can build cases out of different materials, experiment with air and liquid heating/cooling, etc. With just a handful of packs, and no real range goals, the cost of doing all this will be minimal and I can (hopefully) share a lot of info with the community here.
The ultimate goal is still for insane performance levels, via a Big Sol controller torturing a tweaked Warp 11 HV.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I have a recurring thought so I better just share it. If you are not running a transmission you can eliminate the transmission bump on the floor. T's aren't known for a generous footwell so that could improve comfort, in addition to adding a small head-scratching dimension. If the body wasn't channeled you might end up with a completely flat floor, though an unchaneled fenderless T-rod would be a bit odd.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> I have a recurring thought so I better just share it. If you are not running a transmission you can eliminate the transmission bump on the floor. T's aren't known for a generous footwell so that could improve comfort, in addition to adding a small head-scratching dimension. If the body wasn't channeled you might end up with a completely flat floor, though an unchaneled fenderless T-rod would be a bit odd.


The previous truck version was unchanneled and fenderless, but still didn't have a flat floor. With the motor mounted all the way at the bottom of the frame rails, the center line of the motor shaft is 5.5". That's 2.5" above the top of the 3" frame rails. When you add in a little clearance over a 4" (racing) driveshaft, the safety loops, and the floor tunnel materials, you get about a 9" tall, 7" wide, tunnel at the firewall, that gets a little taller in back to allow for suspension bump travel. That's with the floor recessed down to the bottom of the frame rails.

Even with the unchanneled truck plan, I still had the footwells sunk in at the firewall. They will definitely be recessed with the channeled body. I wear a size 9 (regular width). As long as there is enough room to work the pedals I'm happy. I'm considering bubbling the rails out to follow the contours of the body, inside it. That would allow me to sink the seats deeper, to reclaim the headroom that's being lost in the channel. I won't know if I need that though until I get the body channeled and the roof skinned.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With the channeled body, lower hood, and relocated blower, also come shorter velocity stacks. I want a small plenum over the motor, with the intake tube going forward from it to the blower. On top of that plenum will be three 2" tall cast aluminum stacks that just poke through the hood about an inch. Just enough to get your attention. I purchased them today and should have them early next month.
















I went ahead with these now because I'll have to get started on the hood as soon as I get the body and track nose mounted, to have it ready by summer. It's not really a huge project, but I would rather take my time and enjoy the process, instead of ending up against some deadline. I want a 20s automotive style bead around the opening and figured it would be best to have the stacks in place to nail the design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Think this motor would work for the forced air system? The questions are is it strong enough? Is it decent quality? Can it be pushed a little harder than the specs? The original two-stroke engine that powered the leaf blower was 2.7hp, and turned up to something like 7700rpm. So, I would have to overdrive the fan, via gears, at nearly a 3:1 (fan to motor) ratio. It wouldn't likely spend a lot of time at the max. It's PM, so I would be able to do my regen into a resistor trick to make it rev like a hot rod! 



Description as listed on Ebay:

*HIGH TORQUE 48 VOLT 1.7 HP PERMANENT MAGNET DC MOTOR FOR BOATS, COMPRESSOR, PUMPS ECT*​ 
*This a new 48 volt DC motor that can be used a drive motor for boats, pumps, compressors, scooters, go-karts and other applications that require a high torque motor. This motor is labeled 48 volt at 31.4 AMPS intermitent duty with 37.81 inch pound of torque at 2840 RPM. However is continuous duty at 48 VDC with 1 HP at 20 AMPS. Only $9.97 for shipping one additional motor to anywhere in the US only.*


*MOTOR DIMENSIONS:*
*4.5” DIAM. X 7.25 LONG” *
*SHAFT 11/16” DIAM. X 2” LONG*
*SHIPPING 27 LBS ESTIMATED*

*$59.40 + 39.00 for shipping*

*







*


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm Kinda cringing at the over 20 pounds of weight. And Physical dimensions.

No numbers to back my thoughts, Just feels big and heavy for a primarily cooling motor.

I would think a Motor that could move a bicycle and person through the air would be sufficient. Thinking along the lines of a motor from a Currie drive for either bicycle or scooter.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,
I'm with MJ - cooling motor sounds like overkill

I am using the radiator fan motor from my Subaru to keep things cool when the motor revs and road speed are too low for cooling

When I am moving at speed I expect a combination of ram effect and the shaft mounted fan on the main motor to do the cooling

I know you are intent on doing some drag racing but I think your thermal mass is more important for that type of cycle

Just had a daft thought - how about liquid CO2 injection onto the controller and into the brush ports on the motor

Should look awesome as you take off with white smoke billowing out of the motor to join the black smoke from the tires!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I'm Kinda cringing at the over 20 pounds of weight. And Physical dimensions.
> 
> No numbers to back my thoughts, Just feels big and heavy for a primarily cooling motor...





Duncan said:


> Hi,
> I'm with MJ - cooling motor sounds like overkill...


Thanks for the feedback guys. Every once in a while people say something that clues me in to how far I reach! I was afraid that you guys would think it was too puny! 





Duncan said:


> ...I know you are intent on doing some drag racing but I think your thermal mass is more important for that type of cycle...


I doubt that it will even get that hot during drag racing, unless I do a lot of back-to-back passes. It seems the faster drag racers say their motors don't get that hot, because the duration is so short. The standard hair dryer type fan would be more than enough for that.

What I am looking at is autocrossing, where the longer courses could be up to a minute or more of pushing the motor without a cool down period. Also, the runs aren't back to back but can be within a half-hour or so before you're right back on the course pushing it again.

Even more extreme is top speed runs, and short road courses. At around 1000lbs, I may have enough battery to do enough laps to really generate some heat. I plan to run the Southern concrete miles, and Bonneville is a dream that just won't go away...





Duncan said:


> ...Just had a daft thought - how about liquid CO2 injection onto the controller and into the brush ports on the motor
> 
> Should look awesome as you take off with white smoke billowing out of the motor to join the black smoke from the tires!


JRP3 can confirm that that has always been a part of the plan. Way back on the Fiero forum when he finally sold me on electric, that was one of my first thoughts on keeping the motor cool. The reason is I had a 10lb nitrous bottle on the car then and wanted to find a way to use it again!  I'll probably downsize that to a 2lb bottle, for weight and practicality, but plan to use it. I want to be able to purge it like the NOS cars do! 

Tire smoke is closer to white, btw.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd,

You got me interested - lets run some rough numbers

air - 1 Joule/gm degree - 1.3Kg/m3

Lets say the air comes in at 30C leaves at 80C

50 Joules/gm - 50KJ/Kg

30m/sec (66mph) - if we have a 1m2 intake (huge) we can remove 30 x 50 Kw of heat
*1500 Kw*

300 Kw motor at 80% = 60Kw heat 

so we need 60/50 = 1.2Kg/sec = 0.92 m3/sec 
0.92 / 30 = 0.03m2 
or a circular hole 10 cm diameter!

This makes sense because IC vehicles reject 5 times as much heat and don't need fans when they are moving

How much power to get that airflow?

Airflow = 0.04m2 x 30m/sec (m3) = 1.2 Kg/sec
energy = 1/2 m v2

= 0.5 x 1.2 x 30 x 30 = 540 watts

We wouldn't actually cool through such a tiny hole so - assume a sensible intake 300mm x 600mm = 0.18m2

60 Kw heat, 50Kj/Kg = 1.2 Kg/sec = 0.92m3/sec = 5.2m/sec

Energy = 0.5 x 1.2 x 5.2 x 5.2 = 16 watts - not very much!!!

now this is assuming that the heat generated is transferred to the air to be dumped,

My take on this is
You won't need a lot of air at high speed - any decent cooling duct should give enough overall cooling
A fan to cool at low speed can be quite small - radiator fan is enough

Now for the fly in the ointment

The actual heat transfer from the hot parts of the motor to the air

I would be looking at small localized high speed air jets pointing in to the brushes, - they wont be moving a lot of air but would be moving it fast

So - a small fan motor and something more like an air compresser to blow onto the brushes


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey, that was fun!  Where were you when _we_ first started figuring this out? The first thing you're not factoring into your equations is the forced air system is also a sound generator, to add to the Inhaler's marketing appeal. It will produce around 600cfm, through a 3" inlet/3"outlet (rough specs from the actual blower housing. It's admittedly overkill, but I believe in having more than I need.

The second thing missing from your equations is the turbulence inside the motor. You went with an "ideal" velocity in and out, but once that air enters the comm port it has a helluva job making it out the back door with a little heat in its back pockets. The internal fan will be removed, but it has to make it through pretty narrow passage ways, and around a rapidly spinning armature.

I realize that it still won't take as much power as I am suggesting with that motor. A lot of it is for fun. If it's over-powered it should have no problem ripping that blower to full speed in the blink of an eye, then snatching it back down in a second blink with very aggresive regen - in other words revving like a 21st century race car!  Then after torturing it for a few minutes on a race track, I can walk away with the blower screaming like a jet engine and watch people's expressions as it s-l-o-w-l-y winds down. 

I really do appreciate your input though. Seeing theoretical numbers crunched was pretty cool. Feel free to indulge yourself like that here.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Would this be a viable option based on Duncan's number and your exuberance Todd?

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/MAG-E150.html


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Would this be a viable option based on Duncan's number and your exuberance Todd?
> 
> http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/MAG-E150.html


Doesn't make my blood boil MJ, but this one kind of has me slobbering on my laptop. 520rpm/V !?! I could gear that one down and put some real torque behind the fan wheel. Zing!  Think it's still PM?

You've been holding out on me with that site, btw.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

600 cfm - 10 cubic ft per second

I was looking at about 1 m3/sec - 35 cubic ft/sec! 

My airflow will be around the motor as well as through it, 

Any idea how much area there is for the air to go through the motor?

If you are going to pump 2100 cfm through the motor.....

OK guess work time - 3mm air gap? 250mm rotor diameter? 
area 3 x 3.14 x 250 = 2355 mm2 = 0.0023 m2
double that for the other gaps (armature segments, field coils)

or about a fifth the size I worked on, a fifth of the size means 5 times the speed which means 25 times the power requirement

0.5 x 1.2 x 150 x 150 = 13Kw --- bugger!

These power requirements are rough minimums!


I don't think 300Kw continuous with 60Kw air cooling through the motor will work!

If you only have 30Kw air cooling the power requirements go down by a factor of four - 3.5Kw

This is still over 1000cfm!

Water cooling and radiators begin to make a lot of sense!

My motor has the brush access holes and some more slots in the com end - how much of the heat is generated at the com and how much from the armature and field coils?

could it pay to blast all of the air into the front slots
let some bleed out of the brush access holes 
while the rest of the air goes between the armature and the field coils and out the drive end holes? 

_*The internal fan will be removed*_

When I look at my motor the internal fan is a long way from being a flow limiter, - the gaps between the blades and in the center appear to have more area than the throat around the armature
I would leave it in place to help the blower


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> You've been holding out on me with that site, btw.


Not really, found it late last night or early this morning. Found it chasing the Currie motors to find specs. Don't remember how I got there but it is cool.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...My airflow will be around the motor as well as through it...


According to everything I've heard the heat you need to be concerned with on a DC motor is in the armature. Cooling the case, from what I've been told, will not help as much as it would seem.




Duncan said:


> ...Any idea how much area there is for the air to go through the motor?...


Not yet, I still haven't pulled my motor apart. I hope to do so before summer though, to change the field windings from SepEx to series. Your guessimates sound good to me.




Duncan said:


> ...I don't think 300Kw continuous with 60Kw air cooling through the motor will work!
> 
> If you only have 30Kw air cooling the power requirements go down by a factor of four - 3.5Kw
> 
> ...


I don't think it's cause for alarm. The drag racers are even making do with the small hairdryer style fans, blowing through a 1-1/2 - 2" hole in a band around the comm ports. I think they're only around 200cfm.




Duncan said:


> ..._*The internal fan will be removed*_
> 
> When I look at my motor the internal fan is a long way from being a flow limiter, - the gaps between the blades and in the center appear to have more area than the throat around the armature
> I would leave it in place to help the blower


That plan isn't set in stone, just a thought. I can't remember whether Jim Husted keeps the internal fan in his race motors. Whatever he does I will imitate, to sincerely flatter him.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

My motor is a Hitachi fork lift unit
continuously rated at 10Kw - 48v 200amps

I expect to be able to run it at 150v - 500amps - 75Kw but not continuously! 
(I think my controller -OpenRevolt- will be the weak link)

at 75Kw and 80% efficiency (guess) I will be dumping 15Kw of heat in the motor

from our air flow calculations I would need about 0.25m3/sec
- this is about 1 - 2 kw of blower power 
- I bet the shaft fan will meet that at speed

I don't think either of us will able to use continuous power for very long - not because of overheating - but because of running out of road!
And in my case motor revs - will it survive 5000 rpm?

I no longer think you blower is massively over-sized - but I do think the only time you will need it is when towing your other car!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...from our air flow calculations I would need about 0.25m3/sec
> - this is about 1 - 2 kw of blower power
> - I bet the shaft fan will meet that at speed...


The internal fans seem to be pretty decent. The biggest problem is the motor, in an EV, will generate the most heat at low rpm where the internal fan is least effective. If you have ports in the end of your comm head you can do something like Kostov did on their new motors. It's a really neat setup, and I think they're using both internal and external fans.




Duncan said:


> ...I don't think either of us will able to use continuous power for very long - not because of overheating - but because of running out of road!
> And in my case motor revs - will it survive 5000 rpm?






Duncan said:


> I no longer think you blower is massively over-sized - but I do think the only time you will need it is when towing your other car!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Todd

One of the options I've been considering for cooling my motors is an electric ducted fan made for radio control model jets. They're self contained, with the motor and fan built into a small diameter duct that could be mounted directly over the brush opening. I've only played with the smaller ones and have to say that they tend to scream at normal operating speeds, but the larger ones are so powerful that you could probably run them at much lower speeds. Might be worth a look/listen.

Here are a few of them: http://www.ductedfans.com/impellers_ducted_fans.html

Just do a search for "EDF" to find loads more.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> One of the options I've been considering for cooling my motors is an electric ducted fan made for radio control model jets. They're self contained, with the motor and fan built into a small diameter duct that could be mounted directly over the brush opening. I've only played with the smaller ones and have to say that they tend to scream at normal operating speeds, but the larger ones are so powerful that you could probably run them at much lower speeds. Might be worth a look/listen.
> 
> ...


Just back onto this thread but that's where I was thinking, model aeroplane fans.

Todd, you should put a model 'jet engine' in each of your stacks, different sized ones so they spin down at different rates.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looks interesting but I don't have the time and patience to start researching them right now. They're completely foreign to me, so I have no clue on flow rates, motor power ratings, motor type (want PM or equivalent for regen motor braking), etc.

I have looked at using a 150cfm computer case fan in each comm port (4). They run at low voltage and are pretty small. Plus they should be designed to run for extended periods. I have no idea what type of motors they typically are, and whether or not they can regen though. Plus, I don't want to get into setting up/controlling four cooling motors.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

I have a small amount of experience with them. (model air plane hobby) 

For what it is worth: they are very inefficient,also at low rpm. Those impellers work good only when driven with elevated RPMs/power. If you insist on super high cfm's, EDF is your ticket. 

My advice: better invest in a normal radial or axial fan , not a impeller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that I've went back to the channeled body, I may not have room for my big forced-air blower.  I might be forced to use some other type of fan(s). The big vintage supercharger style blower was to fill the huge gap between the top of the motor and the highboy style body (mounted on top of the frame rails). With the channeled body, it would stick too far out of the hood. I thought there was enough room inside the track nose for it, but a quick test with the nose revealed that space is at a premium in there. I'm also still considering inboard coilovers, so...

Anyway, my new stacks came today! I luv 'em.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice!
I bet you will have fun polishing those to a nice shine.

What size is the bore? That may have some bearing on what sort of fan you may decide to run.

You could look at three centrifugal fans with small motors underneath. The stacks can sit on top of each one and the outlet can face one side and be joined up, like one side of a V6 3 into 1 manifold, into the motor.

Maybe you can find something like this that would work. It has a pancake motor on the other side so wouldn't sit too tall.








(random google image)


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Just to muck around with the status quo and peoples minds; I would be tempted to arrange them Triangular rather than Inline.

Also since you are reprocessing this area, Remember to consider sucking air through the motor as apposed to blowing into it. It may be a cleaner install and you can have a field day tuning the intake runners.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice!
> I bet you will have fun polishing those to a nice shine....


Thanks Woody!  You better believe it! They just have a shape that begs to be detailed, huh? They're sitting in my office, in the TV stand right now, so I can stare at them for hours on end... 



Woodsmith said:


> ...What size is the bore? That may have some bearing on what sort of fan you may decide to run...


As cast, they're about 1.875". Not too shabby of a casting either. I might be able to get them out to 2" i.d., but I'll have to be careful (and use a caliper) because they managed to get the walls cast pretty thin - which makes me happy.  The inlet on the big blower is about 3" i.d., and I made sure that they at least had the area to match that (the three together are actually a good bit larger).




Woodsmith said:


> ...You could look at three centrifugal fans with small motors underneath. The stacks can sit on top of each one and the outlet can face one side and be joined up, like one side of a V6 3 into 1 manifold, into the motor...


I'm considering some options like that. I was also thinking about a fan blade under each stack, with belts driving them from a single motor.





MJ Monterey said:


> Just to muck around with the status quo and peoples minds; I would be tempted to arrange them Triangular rather than Inline...


I actually like that idea, mainly because I like mucking with the status quo, but am in love with the idea of three inline stacks just barely poking through the hood.




MJ Monterey said:


> ...Also since you are reprocessing this area, Remember to consider sucking air through the motor as apposed to blowing into it. It may be a cleaner install and you can have a field day tuning the intake runners...


Interesting idea. I will bounce it around as I plan and think.



One thought I had while out running some errands is to hide the blower inside the body. So, there would be no blower in sight - just the stacks on top of a plenum. The airflow would curiously disappear into the firewall. If I did this one I would also conceal the runners from the blower to the motor in a pan under the motor.

If you're wondering what's with me and this plenum idea, there are a few distinct benefits: a large volume of air to draw from, a resonance chamber, and a place to stick little chunks of dry ice, etc.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> One thought I had while out running some errands is to hide the blower inside the body. So, there would be no blower in sight - just the stacks on top of a plenum. The airflow would curiously disappear into the firewall. If I did this one I would also conceal the runners from the blower to the motor in a pan under the motor.
> 
> If you're wondering what's with me and this plenum idea, there are a few distinct benefits: a large volume of air to draw from, a resonance chamber, and a place to stick little chunks of dry ice, etc.


Hmmm, an option to have dry ice cooled fresh air in the cabin?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmm, an option to have dry ice cooled fresh air in the cabin?


A/C for the honey!


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

inhaler brengs to mind massive amounts of air movement? huge jet intake. worlds first electric jet thruster car ??? i dare ya


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harrield said:


> inhaler brengs to mind massive amounts of air movement? huge jet intake. worlds first electric jet thruster car ??? i dare ya


Haha! I'll leave that for someone else to explore. I just want it to sound like it's moving large amounts of air!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been tossing this forced-air system around in my noggin for days. I looked at fans and blowers of all different types, but didn't find anything I liked more than my big monster blower. That sent me back to the idea of hiding it inside the body. Rather than mess around outside in the cold, I decided to play in my digital garage. I experimented with the blower hidden behind the firewall, but no matter how I turned and twisted it, the thing was just too big to fit in there.

Then it hit me! It was on top of the motor to visually bring the motor to the front of the stage, and to balance the open motor compartment. The hood is now closed, so I can put the blower anywhere I want in there! After a couple twists, and a couple turns, I found the perfect spot on the right side of the motor. Completely concealed under the hood, and the outlet is right beside the comm ports!

I'm going to model a new intake manifold, that will sweep up into a small plenum chamber, capped by the three stubby little velocity stacks. The outlet side will simply turn into a band around the comm ports. Of course, being me, I can't have a simple metal band. I'm thinking a raised carbon fiber tunnel that kind of fades down into the surface of the motor as it wraps around it. Hope that makes sense.


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

can't say it wasn't a worthy atempt to sidetrack you againe. i wonder.....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was going to say, 'Arrghh! What about the steering column?' but you don't have it on the right side over there soit won't matter.

Where's the fan motor going?

How about on the other side of the drive motor, to balance things, with a shaft through the manifold to the impeller?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harrield said:


> can't say it wasn't a worthy atempt to sidetrack you againe...


 



Woodsmith said:


> I was going to say, 'Arrghh! What about the steering column?' but you don't have it on the right side over there so it won't matter.


That's funny!  I actually had it on the left side when I first moved it back out into the motor compartment, and thinking about the steering shaft is what prompted me to move it to the right side.  Great minds... huh? 



Woodsmith said:


> Where's the fan motor going?
> 
> How about on the other side of the drive motor, to balance things, with a shaft through the manifold to the impeller?


On the right side of the blower. I might have to put a little "power bulge" in the hood side for it. This is one of the rare occasions you'll see me purposely do an assymetrical design. It's the closed hood thing again. I never mentioned it, but I have been planning for a split hood (right down the middle). I am always thinking of how I will exhibit the vehicle, as its prime directive is to be a marketing tool. I want to be able to open one side revealing the goodies inside, while the other side remains closed to give a view of the complete vehicle. Likewise, the driver's door (left side Woody ) would be open to show off the "cockpit".

When you look inside the open hood you'll see the velocity stacks leading down to an electric motor, with that huge vintage "supercharger" as a backdrop. The more you look around, the more detail you find, like the motor mounts, and hopefully a pair of inboard coil-overs in the nose, etc. For the steering shaft, I'll probably start with a really thick-walled piece of tubing, and add some "flavor" to it on the lathe. Finish it with black anodizing or plating, and a black leather boot over the u-joints, and that whole deal should stay out of sight/out of mind until the motor and suspension have been fully appreciated. When it is noticed, it will look like it's supposed to be there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm so used to thinking in terms of 11, 12, and 13" motors, I couldn't figure out why you guys thought that little pee-wee motor I found on Ebay was so big - until I actually tried it in CAD!!!  Following Woody's question about where the blower motor would be, I decided to try it. As soon as I created the cylinder I knew I was in trouble! When I stuck it on the right side of the blower, it looked like a big goiter hanging almost completely outside the hood line!!! 

Since I need to over-drive the fan wheel to get the necessary rpm for the required cfm, I flipped it around in back of the blower, right over the main drive motor, and (((bam))) problem solved. I can use a belt drive for a little acoustic accompaniment at full song, and for the ability to tailor the air volume. The bracket is, of course, just a quick mock-up. You know the real deal will have to be one of my sculptured excursions in extravagance.

As for why I'm talking like this - too much caffiene, I think. 









It looks like one of the reasons those motors are so cheap is the shaft is an oddball size, at 11/16". I did a quick search on McMaster and Google and didn't see one 11/16" shaft. I can work around that though, by either opening up a 5/8" pulley or turning the shaft down to 5/8". Toughts, comments?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks better like that. 

11/16" is a shade under 17.5mm so that's no help either. I would be tempted to turn the shaft down so that you have a better range of pulley options to get the ratio right.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks better like that.
> 
> 11/16" is a shade under 17.5mm so that's no help either. I would be tempted to turn the shaft down so that you have a better range of pulley options to get the ratio right.


Thanks.  That's what I'm thinking as well. Do it once, do it right, and the rest is history... I'm really not familiar with PM, is there anything different to pulling them apart and reassembling them? Of course, ideally, I am hoping they don't know how to read a caliper or micrometer and it's really 5/8" or 3/4". 

Do you think I should pull the (Buy It Now) trigger on that motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I'm really not familiar with PM, is there anything different to pulling them apart and reassembling them?


Yes, some really strong magnets  They can make things tricky.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Do you think I should pull the (Buy It Now) trigger on that motor?


I don't know, it is too easy to spend someone elses money but it has to be your call on that one. Are there any other possible options?

Which motor are you settling on anyway? It needs to be able to produce a good continuous power and so I would go for one that does that. You wouldn't want a cooling fan that needs additional cooling!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, some really strong magnets  They can make things tricky.


Tricky as in not worth the effort, or tricky as in just be careful. Are the magnets on the case or in the armature?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Tricky as in not worth the effort, or tricky as in just be careful. Are the magnets on the case or in the armature?


Tricky as in just be careful. Magnets will be in the rotor, though I think they can be built "inside out" as well, though not usually.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The PM motors I know of have the magnets in place of the fields. The easy way to know is if it has brushes.

Assembling and disassembling can result in the armature sticking to the magnets when the bearings are released from the end caps.
Having said that, the only ones I have worked with were quite small and to the magnets were not as strong.

Be careful of trapping fingers, or even skin, between the magnets and any metal.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

In my mind I see DC PM motors as having fixed magnets as field coils and the rotating magnetic field is generated in the armature by the comm. AC PM motors would then have magnets in the armature and the rotating magnetic field is in the AC field coils.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about so disregard what I said about magnet location.  I'm not sure which is actually common.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> In my mind I see DC PM motors as having fixed magnets as field coils and the rotating magnetic field is generated in the armature by the comm. AC PM motors would then have magnets in the armature and the rotating magnetic field is in the AC field coils.


Yes I believe you are correct.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes I believe you are correct.


That's not bad going then given I have next to no knowledge on the subject!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> In my mind I see DC PM motors as having fixed magnets as field coils and the rotating magnetic field is generated in the armature by the comm. AC PM motors would then have magnets in the armature and the rotating magnetic field is in the AC field coils.


Hi Wood,

Sneakin' in motor stuff on Todd's thread 

You have an armature and field in a motor. You have a stator and rotor in the motor. Either can be either. The stator is always the stationary member. And the rotor is always the rotating member. Pretty easy to remember 

The armature is the member which carries armature current. Obviously the permanent magnets don't have any current thru them, so they are always the field.

DC PM motors (almost) always have the permanent magnets which are the field fixed to the stator and use the rotor for the armature, conducting the armature current to the rotor via the commutator.

AC PM motors (almost) always have the permanent magnets which are the field fixed to the rotor and use the stator as the armature. The armature current is delivered to the stator via an AC source (which can be an inverter). BLDC motors fit into this category.

Regards,

major


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like how it fits together so the size concerns have been removed.

My weight concern still remains. The motor for your blower is in excess of 20 pounds, The rest of the stuff will be the same or more I'm betting. Do you want to carry around the weight of a small Lead acid battery in exchange for cooling and aesthetics?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> You wouldn't want a cooling fan that needs additional cooling!


It could be an infinite progression of motors with smaller cooling motors, like an Escher painting or Mandelbrot fractal


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It could be an infinite progression of motors with smaller cooling motors, like an Escher painting or Mandelbrot fractal


Or like the (retired) Swedish jet fighter Viggen that has an electric motor that starts a small jet turbine that starts the main engine. If you stand at the wrong spot of the Viggen you'll lose your trousers in the blast (or worse), which of course is still to be preferred to standing behind it when the main engine ignites...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> Hi Wood,
> 
> Sneakin' in motor stuff on Todd's thread
> 
> ...


Yay! So somewhere during my membership here I _have_ learnt something and managed to derive a typical definition!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Do you think I should pull the (Buy It Now) trigger on that motor?


So, did you buy it?

We needs to know these things!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So, did you buy it?
> 
> We needs to know these things!


Not yet.  Letting everything soak in, and thinking it through. Finger is twitching though...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys. I was at work earlier, so I couldn't chime in while the conversation was cookin'. Almost 90 pages, and half-a-vehicle, later and you guys are still hanging in there with me. Brave souls indeed. 





JRP3 said:


> Tricky as in just be careful...


Sweet. 





MJ Monterey said:


> I like how it fits together so the size concerns have been removed....


Thanks. I can't wait to do the real CAD mount. My frame rails taper in as they progress forward. I might match that angle with the base and then bend it straight as it comes up off the frame, all while maintaining the rolled edges, bevels, rolls, etc, that match the motor mounts.





MJ Monterey said:


> ...My weight concern still remains. The motor for your blower is in excess of 20 pounds, The rest of the stuff will be the same or more I'm betting. Do you want to carry around the weight of a small Lead acid battery in exchange for cooling and aesthetics?


Yup.  It's also much more than cooling and aesthetics. A better question is how much is it worth to leave a (positive) impression in a person's mind that replays constantly, and lives there indefinitely? Remember, the Inhaler is first and foremost a marketing tool. 

Trigger finger is very twitchy...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My imaginings are going in two directions at the moment.

One way is to find the smallest motor you can, an RC outrunner maybe, and fitting it inside the blower impeller so that nothing shows. I like this best.

The other way is to use an Agni motor, or other motor that is big enough on its own to drive te car, to power the blower.

One extreme to the other!

The RC outrunner leads me to think, low torque, high speed and so the impeller will take a while to spin up to speed but eventually reaches 10k, and then take as long to spin down again. The whole package would have no visible means of propulsion.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...One way is to find the smallest motor you can, an RC outrunner maybe, and fitting it inside the blower impeller so that nothing shows. I like this best...
> 
> ...The RC outrunner leads me to think, low torque, high speed and so the impeller will take a while to spin up to speed but eventually reaches 10k, and then take as long to spin down again. The whole package would have no visible means of propulsion.


I'm listening to/entertaining all ideas but that one would defeat one of the blower's main purposes - to give the Inhaler the ability to rev crisply like a conventional hot rod. For that, a high torque motor is needed to overcome the (air) resistance, and regen (into a resistor) to quickly pull it back to "idle". Idle is the other problem for a small high-rpm motor. It would probably want to stall at lower rpms, so I might be limited to full boil or nothing. I want the option to creep away silently, or have a faint whine that turns into a crisp shriek in an instant, and back to the faint whine.

Another thing with pushing air through the tight confines of the motor is back pressure. When blowers are rated for cfm, it is at a certain pressure. I looked at some very high cfm fans that would probably struggle to push a couple hundred cfm through the drive motor. Kind of like putting a piece of cardboard with a 3-inch hole in front of a home box fan. You won't get much airflow on the other side of the room. On the other hand, if you put a leaf blower on the other side of the room, with its 3-inch outlet, you'd better hang on to your papers! It was designed to overcome restrictions (leaves, grass, dirt, etc) with a relentless stream of fast-moving, pressurized, air.

Pressurized air also has a more forceful sound.





Woodsmith said:


> ...The other way is to use an Agni motor, or other motor that is big enough on its own to drive the car, to power the blower.
> 
> One extreme to the other!...


Goofball!  Remember when I had the 6.7" GE and mocked it up on the motor with the blower housing for JRP3?






Woodsmith said:


> ...Which motor are you settling on anyway? It needs to be able to produce a good continuous power and so I would go for one that does that. You wouldn't want a cooling fan that needs additional cooling!


It's the 20+lb PM motor I found on Ebay. Being so small and half the weight of my 6.7" GE, I'm thinking this thing has some serious thermal mass to help tolerate the abuse I will subject it to. That and continuous power rating were the main things I was looking for. It's rated at 1hp continuous, 1.7 intermittent. The original two-stroke that powered the leaf blower was 2.7hp, but gobs of low-end torque aren't exactly a two-stroke's forte. The only real concern I have is the leaf blower operated at something like 7700rpm to get 591cfm, and this motor is rated at 2850rpm. That means I will be *over*-driving the fan wheel by more than 2:1. I'm thinking the DC motor's torque will compensate for that though.

The motor is also rated for 48v, and there's also the chance that I can raise the ceiling on that for more power as well. I won't know that unless I buy one and have a look inside though. 48v is also key because it's the initial test and tune voltage I will be toying with, so I don't need anything special to get it working - just a cheap 50-100amp controller. Later I would need a DC-DC converter that would supply the proper voltage to the blower motor though. I'm going to need a custom unit for that regardless, as the likelihood of finding a small 300+v motor isn't very high.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That motor may have a lot of thermal mass but much of it will be in the magnets inside the frame. The magnets don't take kindly to heating up as they lose their magnetism. I don't know if fins on the outside will help in keeping the magnets cool, water jacket maybe? Could be easy if the motor frame is as sealed as it looks to be.

Leafblower? The thought just crossed my mind of a small ICE powered blower to keep the motor cool!
This one would do:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That motor may have a lot of thermal mass but much of it will be in the magnets inside the frame. The magnets don't take kindly to heating up as they lose their magnetism...


Hmmm, that's a good point. I am not familiar with PM motors, so that hadn't occurred to me. Something to take into consideration for sure, before I pull any triggers...

Those little 1/4-scale V8 are uber-cool, but I would have expected a more radical exhaust note. That sounds like a 4cyl European sports car?! Cool in a way, but not quite an American muscle sound, even on a miniature scale.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

How about one that also has a blower on it?






It may be worth running the idea by major to see what he thinks about the heating issue with the magnets.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> How about one that also has a blower on it?...


 That's more like it! Thanks for the videos - cool adds to my YouTube favs!  Still not going on my 21st century "T" though. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...It may be worth running the idea by major to see what he thinks about the heating issue with the magnets.


Good idea. MAJOR!!!!! HELP!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just pulled the trigger on the PM motor for the forced-air system!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done. It will be good to see what it can do.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Well done. It will be good to see what it can do.


I went over all my plans, thoughts, and hopes, with a fine-toothed comb over the last couple days. The way I see it, I can't really go wrong with this motor. Even if it's not up to keeping the full-race motor cool, it's perfect for what I need right now. I might make the motor mounting section of the forced-air assembly mounting plate a two-piece deal. That way, if I need to change to a different size motor later, I can have a new motor mount machined, and simply bolt it to the plate.

I'm collecting all the pieces I need to fire the Inhaler up on 48 volts this summer. The goals are to get it titled and registered, do some preliminary testing of my chassis without having enough torque to twist the frame rails (until the roll cage is sorted out and built), and torture some LiPo batteries to see how I like them before investing in a full pack. This little motor fits perfectly in that plan, and will hopefully allow the Inhaler to be "cool" and sound great in the process!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm guessing the motor will be here either this weekend or early next week. Is it the same procedure to test a PM motor - 12v connected to the main terminals (actually two wire leads in this case)?

Trying to decide what to buy next.  I think I mentioned before, that I'm just collecting parts right now, in preparation for the next round of fabrication and assembly. I'm focusing on parts that will keep me motivated to get it moving and registered by summer. Stuff like the steering wheel, the velocity stacks, and the blower motor. The key is I'll have all these cool parts sitting here, be itching to incorporate them, but won't really allow myself to until it's at least assembled and running.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

As an aside, Todd, I have been thinking of our EV design processes. We both seem to be starting with an overall idea, your T Bucket and my Trike, but we collect the detail parts from which the overall concept then develops.

I was thinking of looking at this method of design development with my design students to see if and how it might work with them. Something like designing a cabinet by specifying the need and constraints and then working from the door handle outwards, or designing a table from the shape of a foot upwards.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> As an aside, Todd, I have been thinking of our EV design processes. We both seem to be starting with an overall idea, your T Bucket and my Trike, but we collect the detail parts from which the overall concept then develops.
> 
> I was thinking of looking at this method of design development with my design students to see if and how it might work with them. Something like designing a cabinet by specifying the need and constraints and then working from the door handle outwards, or designing a table from the shape of a foot upwards.


To me, it's pure design. Nearly unrestricted creative opportunity. In this modern global society, that doesn't seem to happen much anymore. Everything has to fit in a tight little niche, with the main creative opportunities being subtle variances; accesories. Which belt do I wear with my designer outfit...

You would give your students the rare opportunity to actually think _freely_, rather than paint between the lines. That being said, you have to provide some boundaries for the human mind lest you end up in the twilight zone, with end results that have no applicable purpose.

I say go for it.  I want to do something similar eventually, but in a more commerical capacity. Challenging and "growing" the human mind is really at the core of everything I think and do. That's why I closed my shop. I realized that I really don't want to make a living building cars, I want to build people. Cars are just a tool to tweak their brains with.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In preparation for getting my hands dirty with some fabrication and assembly, I need to start figuring out the battery pack - have to know how much space I need for it. As mentioned, a part of the plan for running on a measly 48 volts initially is to do some destructive testing, er, uh, I mean research on the capabilities and safety of using Lipo. At 48v/300-400a, I can push a few cheaper 45-90c Turnigy packs to their absolute limits of charge, discharge, temperature, etc. The pack I am currently considering is 60 of them, 10s/6p for a theoretical 370v/2700a worth of juice.

First steps are to use CAD to think through the arrangement, connections, and case construction. One of the first things I looked at was a reasonable bend of the main leads coming out of each pack. I'm kind of taking a ballpark guess at the size of the wire and insulation, but it should be good enough to give me an idea how much space I need over the Turnigy pack, and how I want to aproach the connections. I'm thinking six of these series-wired sub-packs, in modular cases that lock together in parallel (actually three on each side, with really stout connecters between them.








Imagine a series of wavy connectors, running in a horseshoe, from the first negative wire around to the postive of the Turnigy pack beside it. The + & - out of the two Turnigy packs, which are beside each other, dump into case connectors. Hope that makes sense.

The questions are how much current can those leads stand, and how will the Turnigy packs perform and last being connected in series like that? The leads are cut as short as possible, and dump into large solid metal connectors between Turnigy packs. Plus, it's just a matter of voltage at that point. The current build-up happens between the cases. Those will be suitably-sized solid metal as well.

The cases will also be non-conductive composites in composition, and have a fire retardant lining or sandwich (between layers of composite materials).

Thoughts, comments?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

_In other news:_

The blower motor hath come!  It is, indeed, a beast of a little motor for the task at hand.








I didn't put a caliper on it yet but the shaft seems to be 17mm. I just held a clear plastic straight-edge on the end of it. I'll check that later. It will eventually need to have a keyway cut in it, so I may turn the end down to .625" as mentioned.









I'll also check the size of the mounting holes later, but they look like 6mm to me, judging from the size and thread pitch. I like that it has the same four-bolt pattern on each end, and that the back has those neat little lugs - better for torque control than shear loading on the bolts.









And, that's what she be - a ProTech. Comments? I'm kind of impressed with Class H insulation, but I guess that's required with a sealed motor. I might consider cutting some cooling ports in the heads someday, when I have it apart to work on the shaft.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I gave it a 12v test spin in both directions, under the hood of my car - purrs like a kitten!  Actually, it was a very quiet little kitty.

Looks like it would make a fun mini bike or go-kart motor for the kids. I think he has a few left for someone to run with that idea...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice, difficult to tell how nice as there is nothing to judge scale in the photos.

I found a couple motors just like that at the scrap metal yard yesterday, I didn't take them as they were 180Vdc and I couldn't imagine what I would do with them. Also they had cooling fans on the back and so the insides were open to the rain.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice, difficult to tell how nice as there is nothing to judge scale in the photos....


Oops, I meant to take a pic with something beside it for reference. I'll do that later or tomorrow.





Woodsmith said:


> ... as they were 180Vdc and I couldn't imagine what I would do with them...


Yeah, the 48v rating is the main thing that made this a must have for me now. I looked at quite a few that were 180v or more. Even though I'm planning for over 300v later, a motor like that won't help me now. Ideally, I'd like to have a dc-dc converter from the main pack that will allow me to keep this one later. Hoping that I'll be able to ultimately run it at higher voltage, for more rpms too. We'll see...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...there is nothing to judge scale in the photos....


How's this? I put a standard size .5L water bottle and a straight-edge with it. The motor (without shaft) is about 4.625 x 7.5 inches.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah!
That's a good size, not too subtle!


The 180v ones I was looking at were about that size too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Yeah!
> ... not too *subtle*!....


 What does ^^^ that (bold, underlined) word mean?! 

Oh yeah, shipping weight was 27lbs, I think the motor weighs 25 of those pounds!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I got a little more work done on the battery case design. I'm toying with the idea of flowing liquid through the inner and outer case shells, and through the dividers. That opens a whole 'nother can of worms though because the inner shell and the dividers would have to be made of something with good conductivity for temperature, but preferrably not electricity...








The translucent appearance does not indicate some sort of polycarbonate material (though that hasn't been ruled out), it's just to better illustrate the construction of the sub-pack of little sub-packs. 

Next, I need to think through the connectors to start modeling them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is anyone else finding the need to actively cool these cells?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Is anyone else finding the need to actively cool these cells?


Not that I've heard. Just thinking through all angles of design. It's easier to incorporate it if it has been considered in the initial design stages, harder to go back and start from scratch because it wasn't... As far as I know, the Fiero is the only one currently running them, so there isn't any real EV-related data to go on yet. I like how some of the newer production cars use liquid heating and cooling for their packs. Seems to make sense to try and keep the temperature within a certain range.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I suppose if you have allowed for cooling then heating will be easy to do.
If you are then heating a water jacket then you will also have car heating too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I suppose if you have allowed for cooling then heating will be easy to do.
> If you are then heating a water jacket then you will also have car heating too.


Yup and yup.  I just need to do some materials research. I was planning on carbon fiber, kevlar, and foam, to build the cases but those materials don't do such a good job of exchanging heat.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Yup and yup.  I just need to do some materials research. I was planning on carbon fiber, kevlar, and foam, to build the cases but those materials don't do such a good job of exchanging heat.


If money's no object (Which is certainly seems to be for this build) you could always use thin spacers to separate the cells, and flood the pack with Fluorinert. If the pack is reasonably tightly-packed, it wouldn't add much to the overall weight, as there wouldn't be much in the way of fluid in there. It'd certainly be lighter than having metal for heat conduction and liquid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> If money's no object (Which is certainly seems to be for this build) you could always use thin spacers to separate the cells, and flood the pack with Fluorinert. If the pack is reasonably tightly-packed, it wouldn't add much to the overall weight, as there wouldn't be much in the way of fluid in there. It'd certainly be lighter than having metal for heat conduction and liquid.


Thanks for the tip, I will keep that in mind and do some comparisons. It's pretty heavy stuff though, at twice the weight of water. When you said "money's no object", I set my expectations pretty high. It is _only_ about $500 a liter though. That is within the limits of the project - and it actually does have financial constraints. 

Ironically, when I did the first version of the case, I had about a 1/16th of an inch clearance around the cells for that purpose. I decided to snug them up though, and explore cooling indirectly through the case first though.


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## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

I've no experience using them in a car but my LiPOs get pretty hot in my RC helicopter (running about 20C discharge rate - in fairness this is the continuous limit for those cells). That, as you might expect has superb cooling. They also swell slightly in use. I'd look to provide a *lot* of air cooling and to mount them so they're secure yet able to deform slightly. They also dislike the pouch skins being loaded and being flexed, something that may cause longevity issues when exposed to vibration if they're not well supported along their length.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jk1981 said:


> I've no experience using them in a car but my LiPOs get pretty hot in my RC helicopter (running about 20C discharge rate - in fairness this is the continuous limit for those cells). That, as you might expect has superb cooling. They also swell slightly in use. I'd look to provide a *lot* of air cooling and to mount them so they're secure yet able to deform slightly. They also dislike the pouch skins being loaded and being flexed, something that may cause longevity issues when exposed to vibration if they're not well supported along their length.


Awesome feedback jk, thanks!  I'm currently planning to use the 45-90c Turnigy nano cells, and to push them to Hades and back. Based on your experiences, I will plan to actively control the climate in the cases. Vibration and flexing shouldn't be an issue, the cases are being designed to isolate them from pretty much every external influence.

Hmmm, theis gives me ideas...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The 90C nano's sound like different animals than the 20C poly's jk was talking about. The nano's should have substantially lower resistance and I would expect much less heating. I'd grab some hard data for the actual cells you are using before you do too much design. Of course at your build rate you'll have to change your design every year as better cells come out  Might as well just design for Mr. Fusion and be done with it


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...at your build rate you'll have to change your design every year as better cells come out  Might as well just design for Mr. Fusion and be done with it


Watch it Mister!  I'll have you know I am right on schedule for a high-end hot rod build. 5-10 years is normal working time for them, and they don't have to learn a whole new power discipline. On another site I'm on, there is a guy who's just getting close to having a rolling chassis - he started in the mid-to-late 90s!!! There are also more than a handful of guys that started around the same time I did, and a lot of us are running about the same pace. The top hot rod shops can build them for very rich clients in 2-3 years, but that requires a marathon effort (12-16 hour days by the end of the build) that I'm not up to right now. I'm also kind of flying solo here buddy, so zip it - grandpa will get 'er done sooner or later! 





JRP3 said:


> The 90C nano's sound like different animals than the 20C poly's jk was talking about. The nano's should have substantially lower resistance and I would expect much less heating. I'd grab some hard data for the actual cells you are using before you do too much *design*...


Well, the last word is the key. It's just design. I don't have to use it, but in the end I will have learned more about the whole subject - even if I don't need or use it on the Inhaler. Plus, I can't see how having a stable climate can be a bad thing, even if it's not completely necessary. Having the option is worth the effort to me. Plus, it feeds the marketing pitch - "active-climate-controlled battery"! Thanks for the word _active_, btw.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You work in a different dimension than I do where time doesn't exist. I can only work on something for so long before I have to be able to drive it around. Probably why most of my stuff is hacked together and not high end hot rod material  Did I ever mention the off road race where I dropped a driveshaft in the pit before the race because I didn't check the ujoints?  The curse of ADD, (self diagnosed, I'm a DIY psychologist as well  ).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You work in a different dimension than I do where time doesn't exist. I can only work on something for so long before I have to be able to drive it around. Probably why most of my stuff is hacked together and not high end hot rod material  Did I ever mention the off road race where I dropped a driveshaft in the pit before the race because I didn't check the ujoints?  The curse of ADD, (self diagnosed, I'm a DIY psychologist as well  ).


Put your ADD with my (similarly self-diagnosed) OCD and we make one helluva team. "Let's go, let's go!" "Wait, the nut is torqued to the proper spec, but its sides aren't properly oriented with the one next to it! We need to machine a couple ten-thousandths off of it." 

Yup, in my dimension time is subservient to "perfection".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

With Scratch back on the agenda, to relieve some of my surplus creative energy (and keep the Inhaler true to its original mission), I started thinking back through this long journey to figure out where things went astray. The first big detour happend after the body arrived. I saw things in the Model T body that spurred my creative "what if" machine and, in the process of exploring those lines and opportunities, I let it balloon into a much bigger vehicle than I want. The last rendering was the first step in the right direction (back to 90"wb, turtle deck, channeled body, etc), and this one narrows the gap even more. I needed to do this one because I needed to be sure that the cuts I am about to make on the body are the right ones.








The cowl will be pinched (narrowed) four inches, about three inches cropped off the bottom of it, and then re-glassed into the body with just a small dash lip above the beltline (top edge of the doors). The entire body will be channeled three inches down over the frame rails, the track nose will be sectioned to match, and a hood created to connect them. The beltline will also be raised an inch or so at the back of the side window openings (no change at the dash).

What all this does is put an extreme wedge section on the car, like I wanted when I first started this project. It also creates smaller side window openings, for a more chopped looking top. Another benefit is it effectively drops the dash about six inches, giving much better forward visibility, and making my interior plan work better by bringing the accent parts closer together.

I have the supplies, and a disposable painter's suit, just waiting for the stars to line up to spend a day covered in itchy fiberglass dust to make it happen now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been staring at this to compare the last two versions; figured I'd share...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

I like the lower one better as long as I don't have to try to get in for a ride.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Todd, which CAD software are you using? The renderings look very odd to me. We work on Pro-Engineer, Catia and Solidworks but this doesn't seem to be one of those


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> I like the lower one better as long as I don't have to try to get in for a ride.


I concur.

I think if I had to get in it there would need to be a groove in the road for the seat base to drag along in, or a hole in the roof.

If it fits for you then I say go with it.

How does it work with the pick up bed?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> I like the lower one better as long as I don't have to try to get in for a ride.


Thanks  I've tried to keep that in mind, partially for resale value, but it gets in the way of my main goal here - exploring design possibilities. Maybe someone can use it for a coffee table or something, when I'm done with it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Todd, which CAD software are you using? The renderings look very odd to me. We work on Pro-Engineer, Catia and Solidworks but this doesn't seem to be one of those


That's not CAD, it's a Photoshopped rendering based on a picture of the actual vehicle. 

When I do CAD, I use Rhino for organic surfacing and "3D sketching", or Pro-E for engineering grade solid modeling. The motor mounts for example were developed in Rhino, then finished and programmed in Pro-E. I've been tempted to get into SolidWorks, because everyone and their momma uses it, but haven't even tried a trial version yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I concur.
> 
> I think if I had to get in it there would need to be a groove in the road for the seat base to drag along in, or a hole in the roof....


No problem, we can just put a clear polycarbonate bubble on the roof for your head to poke out of, Woody! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...If it fits for you then I say go with it...


My calculations _say_ I will fit. I will do some real-world tests before cutting though.  Actually they suggest a person about your size can "fit", though you may develop an appreciation for the anticipated short range limitations of the LiPo pack.  The seats can drop about as much as the top and body are coming down, so the interior space is really not being compromised as much as it would appear. The LiPo cells make this possible because they're so compact I can fit them all behind the seats, and not under them. The roof line is much lower though, so making it through the low small door opening could pose some issues. If you or Qer are brave enough to get in and can't get back out, I'll get you some of those astronaut food packs, and a couple bed pans. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...How does it work with the pick up bed?


Actually looks good either way and, being a Model T, I could theoretically make them interchangeable. Shop truck by day, and runabout by night (when the little honey squeezes in there with me )! I'll try to get a pic of the truck version up today.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll make a probably futile attempt to introduce sanity  You're all about impressions, if the vehicle is uncomfortable or impossible to get in or out of or difficult to see out of when driving it's not going to leave a good feeling and may diminish the experience. You'd have to stop a half a block away from a red light so you can see when it changes


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> No problem, we can just put a clear polycarbonate bubble on the roof for your head to poke out of, Woody!


Top Gear electric car!











JRP3 said:


> I'll make a probably futile attempt to introduce sanity  You're all about impressions, if the vehicle is uncomfortable or impossible to get in or out of or difficult to see out of when driving it's not going to leave a good feeling and may diminish the experience. You'd have to stop a half a block away from a red light so you can see when it changes


That is a point, up to a point I guess.
But then no one bought a fun car because it was practical, or even easy to live with.

Does the top come off?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

You just get used to looking out the side window at the traffic lights or "Get your lean" on when waiting at the Light. 

Great excuse to steal a kiss from the Passenger if you are inclined....

The voice of experience..... over 6 foot in a Spitfire as a DD.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'll make a probably futile attempt to introduce sanity...


Well, I give you credit for at least knowing I wouldn't listen! 




JRP3 said:


> ...if the vehicle is uncomfortable or impossible to get in or out of or difficult to see out of when driving it's not going to leave a good feeling and may diminish the experience...


Feeling 500hp and instantaneous torque in a 1000lb vehicle, should add enough to the experience to compensate for what's diminished by its _*short*_comings! I think I'll be feeling more like this: 




JRP3 said:


> ...You'd have to stop a half a block away from a red light so you can see when it changes...





MJ Monterey said:


> You just get used to looking out the side window at the traffic lights or "Get your lean" on when waiting at the Light...
> The voice of experience..... over 6 foot in a Spitfire as a DD.


First thing is I don't really see myself driving a 1000lb, 115" long, Lamborghini-height race car around in traffic much. It's a marketing tool first, race car second, and street car when conditions allow. Even with a full cage, I don't relish the idea of getting smacked by an Expedition because some soccer mom was putting her makeup on and texting, and didn't see the little street rod at the red light in front of her. If the cage works I live, but all the force of that impact is transmitted into my body! 


Another thought I had on this, after reading JRP3's post. I could use a camera to see the traffic lights, etc. The side mirrors that are going on this puppy are pretty much useless (I made them and drove with them on my Camaro before). They're just for legal issues, and will hide when not on the street. I was planning on side-view cameras to supplement them, and will definitely need one for backing up. Adding one more to see traffic lights, etc, wouldn't be a big deal.




JRP3 said:


> ...Great excuse to steal a kiss from the Passenger if you are inclined...


I like that stolen kiss idea MJ, as long as it's not Woody or Qer folded up over there! 




Woodsmith said:


> Top Gear electric car!...


That's one of the only Top Gear episodes I've seen - hilarious! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...bought a fun car because it was practical, or even easy to live with...


Right.




Woodsmith said:


> ...Does the top come off?


Yeah but not easily. Plus, when it's off there is still a full cage there. The roof is also an active aero element of the car. There's more to it than just what's apparent - of course, huh? 

Just for a bit of perspective, this is more in keeping with how I expect to use this vehicle when it finally has all this power I designed for. I have no illusions of being able to drive like this guy (as far as I know anyway, never tried) but that won't stop me from attempting to! 




Of course my "formal" plans include autocross and drag racing, but the real point is just to totally abuse the thing.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

lol soccer mom on cell phone yep that happened also without the impact. She was stupid enough to lean out and tell me that my tail lights were too low.

Shoulda seen the look in her eyes when I hit the quick release on the five point and popped over the cage to inform that if she were not tailgaiting she could see mt brake lights fine. in a full pissed off "you've been threatening my life for a half mile" and yep that's 6' 2" and 200 pounds of belligerent hippy.. She hung up and called the cops. They complimented me on my personal restraint for not totaling her truck or her with my bare fist. Then gave her a tailgating ticket sworn by neutral third witnesses (customers who waved as I cruised by). As it was it was a 500 repair bill.....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Just for a bit of perspective, this is more in keeping with how I expect to use this vehicle when it finally has all this power I designed for. I have no illusions of being able to drive like this guy (as far as I know anyway, never tried) but that won't stop me from attempting to!


 Holy crap, that's some driving!


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

if you do this with emotor every body gonna think there volume levle is messed up


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Just for a bit of perspective, this is more in keeping with how I expect to use this vehicle when it finally has all this power I designed for. I have no illusions of being able to drive like this guy (as far as I know anyway, never tried) but that won't stop me from attempting to!


Shiiiiiiit... 

Ok, that was cool. If you ever attempt to drive like that, put it up on YouTube.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harrield said:


> if you do this with emotor every body gonna think there volume levle is messed up


The Inhaler will actually sound a little like a turbo car with a quiet muffler - so all you'd really hear is the compressor spooling up and winding down. If I can get the control system how I want it for the forced-air blower, it should get more aggressive the harder I push on it because the "idle" speed should increase as internal motor temp increases, and the ramp-in of the throttle from idle to max should be faster. Then, afterwards, when the car is sitting still it will whine like a jet engine, cooling the motor, then slowly ramp down. So they should think, "what the #3!! is in under the hood!!!" 



JRP3 said:


> Holy crap, that's some driving!





Qer said:


> Shiiiiiiit...
> 
> Ok, that was cool...


Dude is freakin awesome, isn't he!?




Qer said:


> ...If you ever attempt to drive like that, put it up on YouTube.


I _will_ attempt it. The caveat is I can't say exactly when. The Inhaler and I have some other (design and marketing) goals to accomplish first. We'll get there eventually. When we do, if I should happen to find my limit before I find the car's, I will find some little nut who can fit in there to finish it off. Wonder how tall dude is? 

The last two renderings, and subsequent discussions, are helping to get my fire back up to temp. Those more tame versions were nice, but it was beginning to lose its soul, and my short attention span was starting to play out - yawn!  I've started gritting my teeth again, thinking about putting it through it paces; and the small part designs I work on for it are "flowing" again. A great idea tends to inspire a never-ending stream of complementary good ideas.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...How does it work with the pick up bed?


I forgot to post this. I just stuck the bed back there - no formal fitting or clean-up work. It's a little longer than the previous short bed versions. The one I have is 30" long. I'm guessing this would be about 40". It looks okay, but I decided to go back to the beginning, to my original goal of building an Indy-car inspired *car*.  I can't remember what started the truck thing. Might have to skim through this thread one day to see. I'm thinking a part of it may have been to create room for batteries, but with the new chemistries that's no longer an issue.
















I put the two together for better comparison. And, why not make 'em dance?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the pick up bed, but then I am practical and I would have a folding crane in it.

When I was a lot younger I did try a bit of mad driving. I managed to park my car sideways into a space between two cars once, Russ Swift style. It was the first try in the college carpark and I wasn't going to risk doing it again as I would never get that lucky second time.





I have also done a high speed reverse J turn in the middle of a busy cross roads when I saw our stolen works van going the other way and wanted to set off in pursuit. What made it 'interesting' to the other drivers on the road was that I was driving in an old Series 3 long wheel base Land Rover on big off road tyres.





I've grown up a bit since and my reactions are a lot slower.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've done more tricks than I care to think about behind the wheel and handlebars. That's why his video appeals to me. I remember spending as much time sideways as pointed forward on old dirt back roads. I really never expected to be alive beyond thirty, and sometimes sit and just nod in wonderment that I survived some of the stuff I did. Never tried the parking trick, because it never occurred to me. Not really my cup of tea though.

I'm old enough to know better, but can't really say I've grown past any of it. I want a motorcycle again really badly, but don't trust myself. My reactions seem to still be pretty sharp, and I'm generally calmer and more collected now, so I think I could do well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First take on fitting Turnigy-stuffed LiPo packs. This arrangement seems high to me because I was originally planning to put long hockey stick shaped packs of A123 cells under the seats and floorboards. It does seem like a reasonable compromise though. You can see in the front view that the overall height of the pack (from the ground) is only 24-inches (the rear tires are 26"). The two horizontal cases on top are about 75lbs, combined weight. The total pack weight is estimated to be about 225-250lbs.








I was originally planning to put three cases side-by-side, but that wouldn't allow room for the driveshaft to pass between them. With this u-shaped arrangement, there is a perfectly sized driveshaft tunnel. The battery pack would be protected from the driveshaft by a couple tubular steel safety loops, which would also form a nice mount to support the center of the pack. Another benefit is the connections between cases can be more solid. With three on each side, I would have needed cables or bars to connect them.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I do not think that that 75 pounds is that big of a deal for cornering. 

My bet is your cg is going to be less than a foot from the ground because so much of your weight is below the center line of the rear axle

You may want to block it out in cad software that has an analyzer built in like Solidworks. Then you can look and see the change on your cg with that 75 pounds there and also removed.


Wouldn't it help for weight transfer on drag racing?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> I do not think that that 75 pounds is that big of a deal for cornering...
> 
> ...Wouldn't it help for weight transfer on drag racing?


Actually, a big part of the switch from the floor-mounted cells is to enhance overall stability. I was thinking specifically of polar moment. Moving 200-ish pounds back to a corresponding position in front of the rear axle center line (similar to the motor being just behind the front axle center line), will hopefully slow the moment enough to be a little more perceptible. Active aero for the rest.

This layout mimics C5/6 Vette, Aston, Ferrari, etc. Divide the main mass into two big chunks and position them just inside each axle center line, and as low as possible. It _should_ result in stable, predictable, basic handling characteristics.

As for drag racing, absolutely. That 75lbs should be nicely positioned to help nudge the chassis into transferring some weight back there.  Some static weight close to the rear axle should be good for acceleration in general.

Also, included in this is the fact that I will be three inches lower in the car. At my weight, that's probably the equivalent of moving a handful of peanuts from your mouth to your waist, but every little bit helps, right? 




MJ Monterey said:


> ...My bet is your cg is going to be less than a foot from the ground because so much of your weight is below the center line of the rear axle
> 
> You may want to block it out in cad software that has an analyzer built in like Solidworks. Then you can look and see the change on your cg with that 75 pounds there and also removed...


I'll see what's in my version of Pro/E eventually. It has a lot of the same features as SolidWorks. I'm still considering picking that up as well. <12" would be good.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Swap the motor and pack and it will be the same as I propose for my trike.
I just have a wheel missing.

For mine I need to keep the mass at the rear as low as possible whereas the mass at the front can be a little higher.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Swap the motor and pack and it will be the same as I propose for my trike.
> I just have a wheel missing.
> 
> For mine I need to keep the mass at the rear as low as possible whereas the mass at the front can be a little higher.


 Reverse trikes are an interesting animal. It seems like the opposite of what I would normally think or do is often what works best for them.

I played with my setup a little more earlier. Fitting everything that needs to go inside that minimalist "T" body is going to be interesting. I need to make some cardboard battery cases and do a little real world mock-up work soon, and before I cut anything. It's tight in CAD, so there's not going to be much room for error in reality.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A bit of a reality check. One, the horseshoe pack just caused too many problems with the chassis. I would have to re-work the entire rear upper frame structure to bend around that pack, and it would still be a _really_ tight fit. My biggest problem with that is the chassis is designed with enough flexibility right now to allow me to move suspension pick-up points pretty easily - just cut the old ones out, fabricate new ones, and weld them in. The space is there, the design is modular...

Secondly, those two top cases pushed the Turnigy-based pack to 2700 amps. By the time I get around to even building this pack, and then get the chassis sorted out enough to even have a chance at putting 2700 amps on the ground, there may be even higher power density cells available that would fit in a smaller package. Without them, the pack is still at 370 volts/1800 amps. I think that would hold me for a little while in a 1000lb, overgrown, go-kart!  The occasions where more could possibly be required will be few and far between so, worse case scenario, I hang a couple extra packs somewhere else just for that occasion. If it's drag racing, I could actually hang them behind the axle for better weight transfer. In autocrossing, I doubt very seriously they'd ever be needed. There is just not enough time, with a handling-oriented suspension tune, to apply it.

So, with a true modular pack in mind, to match the modular nature of the Inhaler, I elminated the top upper cases and flipped the other two down on their sides. That allows them to tuck under my current frame structure, and also lowers the cg even more. 








I really like this setup. It is in keeping with what I've been trying to do with the whole project. It follows and builds on my "elegant, minimalistic, sophistication" theme. Everything is working in harmony. There is only one small flaw. The roll cage I want will not conform to NHRA standards (down to 8.50). I'd probably get booted if I dipped into the 9s. To fit under the turtle deck, the rear down tubes are going to be too low from the top of the main hoop. I don't want them outside the body. Cool tech guys, at the right track, would probably look the other way to see how fast it would go. I'm also going to talk to an NHRA inspector before I do the cage to see if there's something I can do to make it legal.

My POS VisTablet crapped out on me in less than a year, so I am back to 20th century sketching with pencil-n-paper. I tried to deal with them to get it reparied, but they keep bringing up ways that I can be responsible for it and have to pay different costs. If you need a decent graphics tablet, get a Wacom. My plan for the interior, despite being hashed out by _ancient_ methods, is really beginning to gel. It's just two seats, a steering wheel, a gauge panel, and a couple pedals, in a sea of trick carbon fiber. That lets me concentrate on insane amounts of, ultimately subtle, detail in a few parts.

Just updating my _little_ DIY journal...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*This* is why the Inhaler won't be spending much time on public roads.




 
I'll drive it, but not in typical daily traffic. Alternate routes, backroads, parks, organized custom vehicle cruises and events, etc.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A bit of T Cut will sort that out.
Besides, if he just put it in four wheel drive he can back right off the little red wheel chock and carry on his journery.



To be serious, it is something I worry about for when I start driving my trike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> A bit of T Cut will sort that out.
> Besides, if he just put it in four wheel drive he can back right off the little red wheel chock and carry on his journery.
> ...


Lol! That's not a wheel chock, it's a ramp. The owner of the truck is on a creeper underneath doing an oil change. 


For more perspective, here's the header pic from my site. I tried to strike a fairly accurate visual of the size difference between my two main projects. Mind you the other one is based on a 91 Honda Accord, which (I think) is right on the border of compact and mid-size. It's not a big car by any stretch of the imagnation - unless it's parked near my little model T go-kart. 












Woodsmith said:


> ...To be serious, it is something I worry about for when I start driving my trike.


Do you have any proactive safety plans Woody? I'm planning on cameras and hidden LED high-mount brake lights in the roof. Those turn indicator LEDs in the mirrors would be good too. I'll have to look into that. I imagine you just remove the reflective coating in front of the bulb.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One thing is that for us over this side of the pond the American idea of 'a compact car' is a little different to ours. Some of us still remember American cars that had a larger footprint then some of our homes.

How about putting a standing figure next to the Inhaler? It would show just how low and lean it is.

I'm reading a book on Morgan three wheelers and comparing my trike in size. I was a bit surprised to find that mine is bigger and much heavier, but lower, then the early Aero and Super Sports models.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Do you have any proactive safety plans Woody? I'm planning on cameras and hidden LED high-mount brake lights in the roof. Those turn indicator LEDs in the mirrors would be good too. I'll have to look into that. I imagine you just remove the reflective coating in front of the bulb.


I'm working on having a cockpit roll over cage in case I flip it but also keeping head and tail lights high up where they can be seen.
The mirror turn lights are a good idea too. I think I would probably be wearing my biker helmet to keep the weather off and that would add protection too.

I am also thinking of a bright and eye catching colour scheme as that seems to have a big effect.
My current car has a pale metalic green paint job and nearly every year someone drives into it because 'they didn't see it'. I checked this and found that the colour tone, in black and white, is the same as the road surface and so for someone who has some defective colour vision or in slightly poor lighting my car is the same colour and the road and so invisible.

Perhaps using the reflective tape, that is used on British Police cars, to add shape and movement to the colour scheme would make it visually more eye catching.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You guys need to run one of these


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Whow, tobad about that Ferrari. Did the truck driver over looked it? Are these trucks common in the US? Hardly ever one see those around here. Does not get much larger than the X5/Q7's.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You guys need to run one of these


My honey was running one of those on her recumbent trike while heading over one of those tall road bridges in France. Each time she passed a bridge pier the wind blast whipped it around all over the place until it eventually got ripped off.

Maybe something like this would be better?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> ...Did the truck driver over looked it?...


Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out the driver was texting, putting on make-up, reading a book... 




steven4601 said:


> ...Are these trucks common in the US? Hardly ever one see those around here. Does not get much larger than the X5/Q7's.





Woodsmith said:


> One thing is that for us over this side of the pond the American idea of 'a compact car' is a little different to ours. Some of us still remember American cars that had a larger footprint then some of our homes....


The recent recession has swung a little momentum in favor of smaller cars, but for the most part trucks and SUVs this size are like ants at a picnic on USA roads. My car is maybe about 52" tall (lowered 3") and I find myself looking at the side of truck doors quite often. It's probably pretty challenging for them to see small low cars sometimes. I see Smart cars running around here and it makes me laugh every time. It's like watching the episode of Top Gear where he drives that little car inside the office - that's how small a Smart looks in USA traffic.




Woodsmith said:


> ...How about putting a standing figure next to the Inhaler? It would show just how low and lean it is...


I found this guy hanging around in Microsoft Clip Art and asked him to pose with the Inhaler. It was taken on a planet with many suns and moons, so the lighting may seem a little weird.  Imagine him to be around 6' - 6'2"...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL!

Sorry, my trike is bigger then the Inhaler!
If I sit down that close to the gound I would need a hand to get up again.

I reckon if you see an SUV coming at you you can just duck your head into the passenger seat and check their oil as you whizz under.

What's your ground clearence and wheel base BTW? I am looking at 2300-2500mm WB and around 120mm clearence.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

As small as it appears, I will have plenty of room inside. I asked my bubble-headed, 3D, block-person, double to demonstrate the spaciousness of the Inhaler's chopped, channeled, sectioned, and pinched, cockpit for a person of my stature. He also brought along his bubble-headed, 3D, block-person, honey. She's modeled after a 4'8" Thai lady friend here in Columbus - perfect hot rod size. 








There are approximately six inches of space over my head for the roof panels, roll cage tubes, padding, and necessary headroom clearance (according to NHRA rules). That's with a 42" overall height, and standard 20-degree, drag race style, layback, seat. A person 5'8", with a medium build, could fit and be reasonably comfortable, for being in a race car. A person 6'0", with a slim build, could fit if they're willing to sacrifice all comfort for thrills. Their knees might interfere with aggressive steering manuevers, even with the tilt function I'm planning on.

Speaking of the steering wheel. Now that I've resorted back to the sectioned and channeled body plan, I remember why I purchased a 10" steering wheel for mocking the car up! I'll need it. The original T steering wheel center section I have been working on will have to be cut up and re-welded into a 10" deep dish wheel. It looks pretty good in sketches.

If you're wondering about the frame rails running through our torsos and thighs , they're going to be bowed out around the seats to match the contours of the body. That was the original plan, that I tossed with the high boy (body on top of frame) plan. It's back now. When I get the body cut and mounted I'll be able to make patterns for them. A local shop here has a 4x8ft CNC plasma table that I can have the pieces cut on, to form the new rails.


_*NOTE:* I edited this rendering because the side view wasn't sized properly. If you don't see the front and side view rear tires overlapping hold down control or shift and refresh the page._


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> LOL!
> 
> Sorry, my trike is bigger then the Inhaler!
> If I sit down that close to the gound I would need a hand to get up again.
> ...


Lol! 

Ground clearance = 3"

Wheelbase = 90"


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You are ony 1/2" shorter then my minimum WB so not really a lot in it.

The side view is almost the same as mine but I like sitting a bit more upright and a bit further forward. I also need the extra clearence for the rough roads and speed bumps.
I'm also aiming to have the batteries ahead of the front axle as it allows me to have a honey with me and that huge motor behind our backs.

I ran some figures and should have 69/31 weight distribution that way allowing for some luggage at the rear.

I also tried swapping the motor and batteries but that shifts some 60kg from ahead of the front axle to just ahead of the back wheel.

I did wonder about the frame rails under the seat and I would have the same problem so same solution. I just need to decide if I am fabricating bends or getting someone to bend them for me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I did wonder about the frame rails under the seat and I would have the same problem so same solution. I just need to decide if I am fabricating bends or getting someone to bend them for me.


Custom rectangular tube bending is kind of pricey, from the rough estimates received. Plus, I need a long sweeping s-type bend, that ends in a really tight turn behind the seats (impossible on a bender). I'm using standard hot rod practice of making my own rails from four pieces of sheet steel.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You are shooting for being a full 10 inches shorter than the windshield on my beach buggy and with a 10 inch longer wheelbase (mine in a NOT NHRA legal 80".) Lithium and a Zilla are going in the buggy right now and my target is for it to roll back out of the garage at 1100 lb. (it was a portly 1420 lb. with 10 Optimas and an onboard charger.) I suspect your car with have a similarly tiny appearance to my buggy (while looking nothing like my buggy ) as your solid roof will add a look of height and you have no rear overhang on the body where I have some. Thought I'd toss a little perspective on small with a couple of buggy picture links.

This is the classic diner shot, only all the cars are EVs. Notice you can see the front tire of the Datsun in the next parking spot. 

This shows my car disappearing in a row of parked cars at an EVent. From this angle a street rod will look even smaller with the lack of fenders and small nose. 

Having driven an 1100 lb. licensed go-kart before (my buggy before conversion to electric weighed 1100 lb.) I can attest to how much fun you will have. The responsiveness and connectedness to the road never fails to bring out a smile. I do have a concern with those rear battery boxes, it appears they hang down slightly below the rim height. I'm not sure about the licensing requirements in your state, but here in WA you have to maintain clearance such that the vehicle could roll on a flat and level surface on the rims without the tires. They don't make you do it, but you have to maintain ground clearance equal to tire sidewall height. The idea is that in the event of a blowout you are unlikely to make solid ground contact that could result in loss of control.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> ...Thought I'd toss a little perspective on small with a couple of buggy picture links...


Nice feedback EV, thanks.




EVfun said:


> ...This is the classic diner shot, only all the cars are EVs. Notice you can see the front tire of the Datsun in the next parking spot.
> 
> This shows my car disappearing in a row of parked cars at an EVent. From this angle a street rod will look even smaller with the lack of fenders and small nose...


I could really picture the Inhaler sitting in front of the restaurant. Very interesting that the Datsun front tire was showing. Compared to an SUV or large sedan sitting there, that's very telling.


I really had to search to find your buggy in that event pic, even though you told me it was in there! I'm going to need a flag to find my car! 




EVfun said:


> ...I do have a concern with those rear battery boxes, it appears they hang down slightly below the rim height. I'm not sure about the licensing requirements in your state, but here in WA you have to maintain clearance such that the vehicle could roll on a flat and level surface on the rims without the tires. They don't make you do it, but you have to maintain ground clearance equal to tire sidewall height. The idea is that in the event of a blowout you are unlikely to make solid ground contact that could result in loss of control.


We don't have any such laws that I'm aware of here in Ohio. I've been running my daily drivers with 3-inches of ground clearance for years. No cop has ever even mentioned the height (PA cops either). The battery boxes in the rendering are just hanging there and may be a little low, or it may be an optical illusion. In reality, I want them to be 4-5 inches off the ground. They'll be protected pretty well in case of ground contact though (I want Kevlar in the belly pan). I'll keep that issue in mind...


_*NOTE:* I edited that last rendering with the driver and passenger because the side view wasn't sized properly. If you don't see the front and side view rear tires overlapping hold down control or shift and refresh the page._


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I'm not sure about the licensing requirements in your state, but here in WA you have to maintain clearance such that the vehicle could roll on a flat and level surface on the rims without the tires. They don't make you do it, but you have to maintain ground clearance equal to tire sidewall height. The idea is that in the event of a blowout you are unlikely to make solid ground contact that could result in loss of control.


I don't know if we have specific regulations covering that but I would take it as read that ground clearance should be enough that it never runs on its chassis.
Mine is designed around that and it is one reason why I am looking for a 16" rear rim and lower profile tyre and giving up on the massive 32" rubber option.
It is much more of an issue given I am running wires and tubed tyres. No slow punctures for me, it's either full or flat.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> *This* is why the Inhaler won't be spending much time on public roads.


And that's exactly the reason why I like my Jeep Grand Cherokee and Chrysler Grand Voyager and ponder an S-10 as an EV. They might be big, clumsy and (probably according to many) right out ugly but they day you meet one of those morons that got their license in a cereal package big is beautiful (or at least swings the odds over to your favour).

I really think your hot rod is awesome, but it's good to see that you have some self-preservation too. 

Hm... Thought. If one of those "got their license in a cereal package"-dudes kill someone in the traffic, does that make them a cereal killer...?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...I really think your hot rod is awesome, but it's good to see that you have some self-preservation too...


Thanks Q. I'm a daredevil, but I prefer calculated risks that make sense to my twisted brain. Being in city/suburban traffic in something like the Inhaler adds up to a life of controlling a hopped up EV wheelchair by blowing in a tube. 




Qer said:


> ...Hm... Thought. If one of those "got their license in a cereal package"-dudes kill someone in the traffic, does that make them a cereal killer...?


That's funny!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More art - yay! Right?  I revised my side-view Photoshop drawing to represent the channeled, sectioned, and chopped R3/4-view Photoshop rendering. I also stuck it on its proposed little tow rig behind Tailfeather.








One thing that's evident in the drawing, that I knew had to be done but haven't mentioned, is the two-piece driveshaft. It was brought up with the rear stretch ideas, but will be needed even with the short wheelbase version. One reason is the driveshaft, even at 90" wb, would be too long to put massive torque through. The Inhaler's driveshaft is much longer than even a 108" wheelbase car or truck because there is no transmission, and the motor is not back in the tunnel where the transmission would be. Another reason is the split shaft makes proper u-joint phasing possible. The motor is mounted so low the driveshaft would be on an uphill climb to the rear end, and that's not what you want. It should be downhill to the rear end. The rear section of the two-piece shaft will be so _inclined_. 









I really, really, like it now.  My creative vision for the project is going full blast. I am being careful this time though to keep it centered on designs I can maintain control of from beginning to end, if necessary. The overflow will go to Scratch.


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## drivin98 (May 9, 2008)

Whoa! That picture makes it look similar in size to the DP1e.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

drivin98 said:


> Whoa! That picture makes it look similar in size to the DP1e...


Close. The Inhaler is just a bit bigger. In the DP4 brochure, I think, hey have a trailer that allows it to be towed by an ordinary car.  They say the total weight, with the DP4 is 1500lbs. I'm shooting for 1200lbs, total weight, with a dolly style small trailer that slips under the Inhaler and lifts it off the ground for towing. I plan to design points into the suspension for locking bars (tubes with adjustable rod ends). To save wear and tear on the coil-overs.

Wb = 90.0" (Inhaler) vs 80.5" (DP1)
Length = 114.5" (Inhaler) vs 113.0" (DP1)
Width = approx. 76" (Inhaler) vs 71" (DP1)
Height = 42" (Inhaler) vs 39" (DP1)
Clearance = 3.0" (Inhaler) vs 1.5" (DP1)
Power/Weight = 500hp/1000lbs (2.0:1)(Inhaler) vs 500hp/850lbs (1.7:1)(DP1)

Hmmm, they've got me beat a little in power-to-weight. My theoretical pack has 900-1300hp, but the motor is probably going to be the bottleneck that limits me to around 500hp for a while. I have some ideas, but that's down the road. I would love to get as close to the magical 1:1 ratio as possible. 

As the specs are in the comparison, even with the instant torque and flat curve of the e-motor, the DP1 would take the Inhaler to school on a road race track (especially since it has uncompromised racing suspension design, and the Inhaler has a street/strip/road-race in one design). I would have to even the score in the straight-line competitions. Then, it would come down to subjective style points. Street rod cool or race-car slick?

If I can increase the ability of my motor to handle more power, I would be able to outrun a true race car on the straights and out muscle them through corners. My larger diameter wheels will allow massive brakes, which would allow me to brake late and hard into the turn, then take advantage of the electric motor torque and rip my way through the second half. Good ol' American musclecar style throttle steering, but with handling dynamics closer to a lightweight road race car. Flick it and kick it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More perspective. The truck's size is guesstimated, based on seeing my car in the parking lot beside trucks at work. I don't think tangling with one of those, in regular traffic, in the Inhaler, would be a very good experience.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Now that's a scary pic!

Right, that does it, I want a monster trike!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Now that's a scary pic!...


Allow me to paint the scary scenario: You pull up to a traffic light in the right hand, turning lane (we're in the US Woody ), beside that truck. There's a car in front of you, almost out into the crosswalk, trying to find an opening in traffic to make a right-on-red. A car pulls up behind you, boxing you in between the curb, itself, the car ahead, and the truck. As mom is texting dad, and adjusting her makeup, the kids in the back seat of the truck are screaming for a Happy Meal, upon seeing those irresistable Golden Arches around the corner to the right. (Getting the drift here?)

As the green turn arrow lights up, and mom finishes her makeup session, she gives in to the kids' demands, noticing an "empty" space in front of the car sitting beside her right quarter, jumps on the accelerator pedal, and cranks the wheel hard right with her left hand (the right is still finishing the text to tell dad they're going to be a little late). You see the truck coming your way, just as you begin to accelerate, and slam on the brakes!

Too late the truck comes crunching over the side of the Inhaler, and just as you think the roll cage has done its job and saved your azz, the car behind you slams into the back of the Inhaler, folding it into the truck!  The driver was so determined not to give up its spot to the truck, he forgot the little hood-height car was up there. Here come the police, fire department, jaws of life, ambulance, duck, and gecko.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd,
I used to drive a mini in london traffic - you may be small but you are more agile

It was actually the van version of the mini - a minivan! but not like the American minivan's

Even in London a scruffy minivan with different colour doors and bonnet got some respect
I think everybody though I wasn't woried about the odd scratch!

The inhaler would be OK in traffic - so long as you can see out!!
with all of the short sighted Americans I would add a flagpost
I would fly a Saltire - 
I expect you would go for the Stars and Stripes

In traffic bumps - as you describe above cars move and bend a little - very rarely would you get personal injuries unless there is some speed involved

In the scenario above in my mini (with no roll cage) I would expect to get out of the undamaged door and curse the plonkers who had dented my car

Car occupents are only really at risk when there is some speed (not much 15mph will give a serious impact)
Small cars in traffic are not really at much more of a risk


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...The inhaler would be OK in traffic - so long as you can see out!!
> with all of the short sighted Americans I would add a flagpost
> I would fly a Saltire -
> I expect you would go for the Stars and Stripes


Have you ever driven in major U.S. city traffic? Sadly, sometimes the last thing on their mind is driving. Everyone seems to need to be somewhere - yesterday - and they all have lots of other things to do on the way (I've been guilty of that one myself). I have to drive defensively in my Honda Accord. Two weeks after I got to Columbus, I was riding with a friend and got t-boned - in a mall parking lot - so hard it spun us 180-degrees, and pretty much totalled the car! They don't see normal cars, let alone tiny toys that don't really resemble any type of vehicle they're expecting to see out there.

I would expect them to hit me or someone else trying to figure out who put a flag in the middle of the road! 

You're comment about being more agile is true. That's the philosophy we use on motorcycles. I could out accelerate, out brake, and out maneuver, most vehicles. I had to use that advantage on more than a few occasions too. The problem with the street rod is it's just big enough to not be able to squeeze through tight spaces etc, so your opportunities for escape are reduced. Also, being in a city, as compared to the small town I usually rode motorcycles in, the roads are much, much, more congested.

Special events and twisty backroads are a different story.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I know the feeling, from both sides of the steering wheel. Both driving big trucks and lowered MGs.

A friend of mine a long while ago used to drive a Thorycroft Antar mk1. When approaching a line of traffic we would have to count the cars disappearing out of sight as he came to a stop and then count them all away again before he could risk moving off. If one didn't reappear the passenger would need to get out to check if it was still there.

The Antar mk1 is the one leading in this video.





Another friend was reversing a Leyland Martian and ran over a front of car that didn't want to wait despite being warned by the banker to stop. The Leyland barely rocked as it went over.

This one was on the news over here a few months ago.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I would expect them to hit me or someone else trying to figure out who put a flag in the middle of the road!


You need hydraulic suspension!
Lift the Inhaler up on its tippy toes when ever it comes to a stop.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Thorycroft Antar mk1... Leyland Martian...


I feel like I'm in a Star Wars movie! Those names! 

I imagined the Inhaler in that procession, behind the Jeep-like third vehicle!  There was a similar incident with a semi pushing a car down the highway over here, but I can't remember the details to search for it. Either that, or I'm too lazy to try. 




Woodsmith said:


> You need hydraulic suspension!
> Lift the Inhaler up on its tippy toes when ever it comes to a stop.


Then it would be a full 44" tall!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Now that's a scary pic!
> 
> Right, that does it, I want a monster trike!


Now we are getting a little closer to the real Woody.

Actually this is way beneith you. 

I think a diesel electric generator and traction motor out of a loco and a couple of big lift truck batteries on a reverse trike would make a lovely hybrid. 

Something about 15 feet long and 6 foot wide 6 foot high with dual wheels on the rear with a two speed rear axle and 20 inch polished aluminium wheel on a beam axle in the front. Side by side seating above the engine. Of course a wood body.

No need to be afraid of anything on the road except something you would only meet at a railroad crossing.

I can see it now . . . a real Woody Mobile

Jim

Woody, let's build it and make Todd jelouse


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL, Jim! 
I still have that 4 ton forklift axle that came with the 11" motor you know...

Believe me, if the batteries were cheap I would be building it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Since you're going for the gusto, and this is Woody we're talking about, he can build that electric V12, with twelve 11-inch forklift motors, six Land Rover diffs, and a 1/2" steel plate main case. 

Might as well put a liftgate on each side to get on the thing. They'll make nice running boards when up! 




Jimdear2 said:


> ...Woody, let's build it and make Todd jelouse


Nope, I'll be the little gnat (in the Inhaler) buzzing around Woody's monster trike, and hiding in between it's wheels (going down the road). The only thing I ask is if you feel like you just ran over a small creature look back and make sure it's not me!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Guy's,

You know the really sick thing about all of this . . . is you know each of us for a quick second started thinking "let's see now, a powertrain from a small switching locomotive, now what voltage would that be>>>> wher can I find out what it weighs"

I guss that's why we have more fun

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You guys crack me up! And it's not even my thread! 

You know I still have a workshop manual for a Rolls Royce CV12 27 litre tank engine. Now I just need the engine...

Now if I had a twin wheel truck (of the size I like) the Inhaler can just sneak between the twin tyres as I go past.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Guy's,
> 
> You know the really sick thing about all of this . . . is you know each of us for a quick second started thinking "let's see now, a powertrain from a small switching locomotive, now what voltage would that be>>>> wher can I find out what it weighs"...


Jim, I don't understand your last post. You never stated what the really sick part was? 




Jimdear2 said:


> ...I guss that's why we have more fun


Darn skippy. 

Now back to work. Woody, what's the gearing on that axle?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Guy's,
> 
> You know the really sick thing about all of this . . . is you know each of us for a quick second started thinking "let's see now, a powertrain from a small switching locomotive, now what voltage would that be>>>> wher can I find out what it weighs"
> 
> ...


Found one!










Todd, that axle is about 14:1 so we'd need some decent height tyres to get a good road speed.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's one in a repair shop.
You think it's big enough?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

_*They don't see normal cars, let alone tiny toys that don't really resemble any type of vehicle they're expecting to see out there.*_

I have driven in Chicago, and I lived in Columbus (Indiana)(a small town!) for four years

You are partly right about what people see - I remember a paper when somebody wired up a frogs brain - with the correct size bug they got a signal - if the bug was the wrong size the frogs eye filtered it so the signal didn't reach the brain

People see what they expect - cars and trucks - which is why motorbikes are dangerous

But there is another factor - you won't notice the color of a gate but you will notice the blonde in a bikini - on my recumbent I was noticed - Unlike your Honda the inhaler will be noticed!
It will bash its way past the brain's filters.

The Inhaler or woodies trike will stand out and be noticed

Woody mentioned counting cars to be sure they are all clear - don't need to count Inhalers!

A flag would probably still be a good idea in case somebody is unsighted, 
(the inhaler is hiding behind a car)
thinking about it a skull and crossbones would make a good flag!

PS - I wasn't wearing a bikini on my recumbent!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> The Inhaler or woodies trike will stand out and be noticed
> Unlike your Honda the inhaler will be noticed!
> It will bash its way past the brain's filters.


A little extra help is never a bad thing hence thinking of reflective tape on mine.




Duncan said:


> you will notice the blonde in a bikini - on my recumbent I was noticed -
> 
> PS - I wasn't wearing a bikini on my recumbent!


Naked on a recumbent! I didn't even know you were female!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, a few things...


Duncan said:


> ...which is why motorbikes are dangerous...


I always disagree with that. Motorcycles are not dangerous. In fact they're very safe. I've started riding on the street in 1983, and every accident I had could have been avoided if I had been more aware of my circumstances. As a rider, you have to ride for yourself, and drive for the other vehicles around you. You can counter their actions, very quickly. I always felt just as safe on my bike as in my cars and trucks.





Duncan said:


> ......Unlike your Honda the inhaler will be noticed!
> It will bash its way past the brain's filters...


You don't understand my Honda. One of the most common questions I get is, "what was it before you started?!" It's radical and looks nothing like a Honda Accord anymore. It gets more attention than I want sometimes, but there are still those individuals that have no interest in custom vehicles - at least not at the time they're busy doing other things behind the wheel of their moving vehicle. I know because I have taken evasive action, in that car, that they were still totally oblivious to.





Duncan said:


> ...you will notice the blonde in a bikini...


Yes, I will but there are people who don't seem to have the same appreciation for such things. To those toads, she's the wrong sized bug.




Duncan said:


> ...A flag would probably still be a good idea...


I have a better one - I'll just stay out of traffic!  I never meant for the Inhaler to be used as daily transportation. It's a marketing tool first, and race car second. Those two things dictate a certain portion of it's life being spent on its little tow rig, getting to an appropriate place to strut its stuff. I'm fine with that.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You don't understand my Honda. One of the most common questions I get is, "what was it before you started?!" It's radical and looks nothing like a Honda Accord anymore. It gets more attention than I want sometimes, but there are still those individuals that have no interest in custom vehicles - at least not at the time they're busy doing other things behind the wheel of their moving vehicle. I know because I have taken evasive action, in that car, that they were still totally oblivious to.
> 
> 
> Yes, I will but there are people who don't seem to have the same appreciation for such things. To those toads, she's the wrong sized bug.


That is true.

Running around London in my truck...
















...I used to get hit all the time. People in nice cars would just drive into it, scrape past it, try to push it with their hood or trunk if the parking space wasn't big enough.

It wasn't like it was invisible!
But there are brain dead people on the roads.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Found one!...





Woodsmith said:


> Here's one in a repair shop.
> You think it's big enough?


Wow!  That would be soooo much fun to work into a project!!!!


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is true.
> 
> Running around London in my truck...
> 
> ...


My father drives the big red double-decker buses in London, and still he gets people who hit him claiming they "didn't see" him. His typical response is "It's 16-1/2 foot high, 10-1/2 foot wide, painted bright red and lit up like a christmas tree, and you didn't see it? Did you leave your sunglasses and white cane in your other car, by any chance?"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Crisis of Confidence *
That's what's really been holding the Inhaler back. This problem has been playing out for about a year. Earlier last year, I decided to use the project's budget to make a lifestyle change. I quit my job and used that money to live for a while, until I was ready to start working again. Then, later in the year, when I had replenished the budget enough to start again, I decided to invest it back into my lifestyle to find a little more peace with living here. I am really pleased with both of those decisions, and don't regret an ounce of it.

I'm at that crossroad again. I did my taxes and then a first round of budgeting for the rest of the year, and I'm right where I wanted to be going into this year. That means the budget is actually there for getting the Inhaler running, registered, and ready for the first round of marketing work. The problem is I just don't see the return I want playing out from following that path. It would probably work well to lure paying customers into a custom shop, but I have no desire to go back down that path. I like how my resume is building with all of my previous experience, last two jobs, and school, and it doesn't spell s-h-o-p. I'm slowly hanging my tools up, one by one.

When I started the project, I was fresh out of shop ownership, over two decades of this type work, and a lifetime of the hands-on approach from growing up in a family that was in carpentry/light construction (my dad and uncle even built the house I grew up in, from scratch). Two years ago I still equated everything to showing what I could do with my hands, even my design work. Now, I care less and less about whether people realize what my hands can do, and more about whether they see what my mind can conceive.

I decided to post this because you guys have been with this project for almost 100 pages now, and I owe you honesty if nothing else. This is not a death sentence, just another detour. I had planned to drive it into the Goodguys show here in July or, even better, have it displayed in my own vendor space. I don't really have much interest in that right now. I even realized in the most recent racing debates here that I'm not as interested in that either. I would love to race again, but it's not an urgent desire. Normally, seeing results like WZ's and Rocket's records, and Cro's dyno numbers, would have made me burn to get out there. I smiled for a minute, but my attention quickly turned to other issues.

I kind of like the "me" I'm discovering with school and the jobs. The projects are more stage props than stars of the show in my forward thinking.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Todd,
Now why did I stop on the way to bed at 1.40am to have another look on here?

I have no answer for you but...

I came from a hands on background, mechanic, electrician, builder, carpenter, and then went into local authority housing management and development where I could earn better money without getting my hands dirty.
In 2003 I walked out of my desk job. I booked my leave with immediate effect, handed in my notice and had cleared my desk within half an hour and walked out. Only my manager knew what I had done and I only knew a few minutes before I did it.

I wanted to 'get my hands dirty' again because although other people saw me for my greater earning potential I saw me as someone who didn't create anything anymore.

I went door knocking with my carpentry tools to make ends meet and then went back to college to study furniture making. That lead me to teaching.
It means I can achieve both, be creative getting my hands dirty and be seen for my intellectual ability and people can take me as what they will.

I take me as just... well, happier.

I am at the stage, just earlier this evening, where I don't think I want to make many more pieces of furniture. It has become a chore and it should be a pleasure. I enjoy the teaching but currently I am working my ass off at it just to get the qualification. Again it is a chore not a pleasure.

Both the furniture making and the teaching has become a chore that takes away the creativity and pleasure in working and I don't feel happy with either anymore.

I don't know what you will decide to concentrate on doing.

I don't know what I will decide to concentrate on doing but something I am sure of is that I will get my qualification, no matter what, as that is mine to keep. I will also finish my trike as I am getting old and broody and if I'm not to have children then I will make my own creation(s).

I am impressed by my 'honey's' career. She is a cyclist, she loves cycling so she is a journalist for a cycling magazine part of the time and she rides a cargo trike for a charity based job the rest of the time. Most of the time she is happy with her life and her job.
Much of the time I am not with mine.

Things will change, but not this year, maybe not even the next, but when it happens I know two things will remain, at least for the foreseeable future. I will teach and I will design. Who I teach and what I design is yet to be determined.

I hope you find your way Todd, I really do, I may even come over and get you and Jim together for a beer and then ask you to your face if you have found what you are looking for.

Maybe when you have put to one side all the things that doesn't make your heart sing at the moment you will have a better view of what does.

Take care my friend, I'll catch you later, in _my_ morning.


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## evlowrider (Jul 23, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is true.
> 
> Running around London in my truck...


Was this from Scrapheap Challenge? And if so did you get the potatoe gun with it??


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I have no answer for you but...
> 
> ...I don't know what you will decide to concentrate on doing...
> 
> ...


Well, mine is pretty easy. I like solving problems, with my mind. I've just been doing it with my hands for so long it's hard to not pick up the tools - just habit. That's also due in large part to growing up in a small town. There, life is heavily centered on being hands-on; whereas ideas and knowledge play a much bigger role in large cities.

I kind of know exactly where I'm going but don't really know how to describe it to anyone else. I just have to start portraying myself the way I want to be seen. If I show up in dirty coveralls, with a loaded tool belt, people are going to start imagining what kind of physical work I can do for them. On the other hand, the beauty of coming from a background of dirty hands, but being dressed to think, is people find it easy to place a lot of confidence in what you're saying.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)




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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's funny!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> *Crisis of Confidence *
> That's what's really been holding the Inhaler back.


I know the cure  Just do it. Freeze the design. Build the vehicle. 

I noticed the situation a while ago. I even mentioned in a non related thread that you should get 'er done and out of your garage. I'm sorry to see you give up on it.

Everyone has to choose their own path. For me it is a mix of thinking and doing. Yeah, I have a barn full of projects waiting the wrench. But most days, I am working on some project. Seems most of them are for some other's guy ride, like the #80. But with a race date, it's do it on time or sit on your butt watching the other guys run. Also I think there is a lot to be said for working with others. It brings a lot of baggage, but motivation as well.

You go on to speak of appearance. I'm most impressed by those who show me what they've done, not just look and talk smart. Any idiot can buy an expensive suit and get a haircut.

You have posted volumes up on this board. I have always been impressed with the manner in which you express yourself. You're a bright young whippersnapper. I think you owe it to yourself to think and do, not just one or the other.

May the emf be with you  

major


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

major said:


> I know the cure  Just do it. Freeze the design. Build the vehicle.
> May the emf be with you
> 
> major


I'd be tempted to follow that.

The Inhaler has been intended as a sales attraction, how about the Inhaler just being _your_ car?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> I know the cure  Just do it. Freeze the design. Build the vehicle...





Woodsmith said:


> I'd be tempted to follow that.
> 
> The Inhaler has been intended as a sales attraction, how about the Inhaler just being _your_ car?


I wouldn't get _anything_ out of that. "My car" is something I can drive daily, with reasonable comfort and convenience - Tailfeather. Other than that, it would be something I can race but I have more important things to do right now than race just for the fun of it. That's what I'm saying - there's no return on the investment for me right now. It was conceived as a marketing tool, but two years out of being a small town custom shop owner, my career/biz goals have changed.

Freezing the design and just doing it, would result in a total bailout. I would lose all interest in the vehicle, absent the design challenges.





major said:


> ...I'm sorry to see you give up on it...


It's not at the point of giving up on it. I'm just pushing it back - again - but letting everyone know up front that it's about to happen. Even as I pushed it to the back burner last year, I never stopped working on the design and never stopped buying parts for it. I just purchased a couple hundred bucks worth of odds and ends this year. I'll probably continue to snag deals on parts, and tweak the plan. It's just not likely to roll under its own power by July. 





major said:


> ...You go on to speak of appearance. I'm most impressed by those who show me what they've done, not just look and talk smart. Any idiot can buy an expensive suit and get a haircut...


You missed my point. "Dressed to think" was metaphorical. Outside of the black Dickies and red polo for selling auto parts, you will find me - exclusively - in jeans and polos or t-shirts. I have one suit, that has only been used for funerals for the last five years or so. I shun occasions to put it on and mingle with arrogant executive types just for the sake of physcial appearance. If I'm not welcome to share my mind in my jeans and polo, I don't have much interest. I cut my own hair, and generally sport the "slightly, purposefully, scruffy" look. I was referring to how people perceive other people as individuals, not the garments,trimming, and accessories.





major said:


> ...You have posted volumes up on this board. I have always been impressed with the manner in which you express yourself. You're a bright young whippersnapper. I think you owe it to yourself to think and do, not just one or the other...


Thank you.  Molding and shaping raw materials is rewarding, and I will always enjoy playing with "stuff", but I get a bigger thrill out of molding and shaping human minds to be able to understand and mold and shape raw materials and, more importantly, life. Woody should really get my drift there. I'm not planning to pursue the formal academic route, but my plans are more centered on people than things. People working with things is an ideal scenario.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I have very much enjoyed following and learning from your design process and pics-- thanks so much for posting!

Hopefully we'll get to see you with something electric -- show car, race car, or daily driver, as a car or motorycycle. In any case please post up!


toddshotrods said:


> *Crisis of Confidence *
> That's what's really been holding the Inhaler back. This problem has been playing out for about a year. Earlier last year, I decided to use the project's budget to make a lifestyle change. I quit my job and used that money to live for a while, until I was ready to start working again. Then, later in the year, when I had replenished the budget enough to start again, I decided to invest it back into my lifestyle to find a little more peace with living here. I am really pleased with both of those decisions, and don't regret an ounce of it.
> 
> I'm at that crossroad again. I did my taxes and then a first round of budgeting for the rest of the year, and I'm right where I wanted to be going into this year. That means the budget is actually there for getting the Inhaler running, registered, and ready for the first round of marketing work. The problem is I just don't see the return I want playing out from following that path. It would probably work well to lure paying customers into a custom shop, but I have no desire to go back down that path. I like how my resume is building with all of my previous experience, last two jobs, and school, and it doesn't spell s-h-o-p. I'm slowly hanging my tools up, one by one.
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I have very much enjoyed following and learning from your design process and pics-- thanks so much for posting!
> 
> Hopefully we'll get to see you with something electric -- show car, race car, or daily driver, as a car or motorycycle. In any case please post up!


Thanks David.  That's almost a certainty. I really like this whole EV thing, so no matter how this pays out I'll be doing something with it.

A few hours after the discussion earlier I received an email from the guy that runs the community workshop I did some of the fabrication work in. I had emailed him a couple weeks ago, just to touch base, and he was replying to that. He said let him know if there was anything I'd like to collaborate on, and the light bulb went off. I replied with an idea that would keep the Inhaler chugging along, and me involved in my preferred capacity (design), as a learning tool for young folks who are interested in custom stuff and/or EVs. Kind of like the OSU EV projects, on a much smaller budget, and in a less formal setting, though.

I'll stick that idea out here as well, in case he doesn't bite. If someone has a plan that makes the Inhaler an inspirational learning tool for young people, that I like, I'm listening. If I really like it, I'll donate the vehicle and my services.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A few years ago I applied for a job at a youth centre to help young people repair and build up their own customised bikes so that they can get around to see friends and look for jobs.

Seemed like a great idea but when I got there I could see, more then the social workers could, that the kids were stealing bikes and then using the service to make 'cut and shuts' to hide the bikes' identities before selling them on!

However, the idea of working with young people to build EVs is a good one. A few colleges do it as part of their motor vehicle or engineering courses but you could do it outside of the formal educational college.

How about a progression thing where youngsters learn to build and race their own karts on kart tracks with a view to progressing up to building their own race cars for the grass track or drag strip.
The Inhaler can develop as a teaching tool for their support as a point of inspiration and aspiration for them.

Maybe expensive things like battery packs can be a standard community pack size/shape that is used for whichever car, or group of karts, is racing. It provide a design constraint that limits the design range and also even up the competition.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> A few years ago I applied for a job at a youth centre to help young people repair and build up their own customised bikes so that they can get around to see friends and look for jobs.
> 
> Seemed like a great idea but when I got there I could see, more then the social workers could, that the kids were stealing bikes and then using the service to make 'cut and shuts' to hide the bikes' identities before selling them on!...


With that type of scenario in mind, I proposed to him that there be some type of competition to get on the team. Like submit essays explaining why, along with a lot of background info, and have a panel from the workshop pick the team from them. The idea would be to find individuals for whom the project would be a stepping stone to NASA or something (ideal outcome, stated for emphasis).





Woodsmith said:


> ...However, the idea of working with young people to build EVs is a good one. A few colleges do it as part of their motor vehicle or engineering courses but you could do it outside of the formal educational college...


That's why the thought jumped out. This community workshop is developing a favorable reputation with the local school system. They have already done tours, and I think workshops, for area school kids. It's also kind of ripe for it here, because of OSU's EV racing endeavors, and the workshop;s connection to OSU.





Woodsmith said:


> ...How about a progression thing where youngsters learn to build and race their own karts on kart tracks with a view to progressing up to building their own race cars for the grass track or drag strip.
> The Inhaler can develop as a teaching tool for their support as a point of inspiration and aspiration for them.
> 
> Maybe expensive things like battery packs can be a standard community pack size/shape that is used for whichever car, or group of karts, is racing. It provide a design constraint that limits the design range and also even up the competition.


If they want to take it that far, I don't have the time or energy. I have so much hashed out with the Inhaler already that it's an easy process for me to guide others through it. I'm thinking a 5+ year process where a series of teams, possibly with some returning members, takes it a step further each time. The guy who runs it is an OSU grad, and communicates with them on a regular basis (that's how I ended up on the tour of CAR). They could probably provide a lot of guidance for racing, legal/liability, etc.


I really like the idea because the project could continue on with its intended mission, and I could focus on pushing human and mechanical limits. If that deal doesn't come through, I may shop the idea around...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I cut my own hair,


Me too, DIY all the way 
Sorry to hear about the old Inhaler, but I can't say I'm surprised. I've definitely started more projects than I've ever finished, not even counting the ones that never made it outside of my brain  Hopefully the project will live on in some form.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Me too, DIY all the way
> Sorry to hear about the old Inhaler, but I can't say I'm surprised. I've definitely started more projects than I've ever finished, not even counting the ones that never made it outside of my brain  Hopefully the project will live on in some form.


Will you guys stop talking like you're at a funeral! If no one bites on this idea, I am not killing the project. Just getting some other things in my life in order first. I didn't even say I was going to stop working on it, just that it probably won't make my July deadline for moving under its own power

Sheeesz! Tell people you're taking a coffee break and they start picking out your coffin!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Sheeesz! Tell people you're taking a coffee break and they start picking out your coffin!


LOL. We already have you half buried, you should still be able to dig your way out


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> LOL. We already have you half buried, you should still be able to dig your way out


Too tired, and it's cold - throw some more dirt down here please, I'm sleepy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

While you guys have been giving eulogies about the "old Inhaler", and throwing dirt on an empty coffin, I've been busy sorting this all out and figuring out what to do next. The guy who runs the community workshop is so busy that I typically don't hear from him for a week or so and, being that this would be a major project, he's going to need even more time to think about it and discuss it with his team. That whole thing is just an idea anyway, that may or may not play out, but it's a catalyst that sets in motion a plan for the Inhaler's future.

Ironically, I found the answer to what I need to do next by considering the polar opposites of two pieces of advice:


major said:


> I know the cure  Just do it. Freeze the design. Build the vehicle...





Woodsmith said:


> ...how about the Inhaler just being _your_ car?


Basically, I am going to *freeze the build* and *focus on the design*. If I design *someone else's car*, the project is free to live beyond "me". That doesn't mean I am going to stop building it, it means I am going to freeze it at the level it is - put the parts that are there together, without much intention of going any further for a while. I started asking myself what I would do if I was presented the opportunity to transform the Inhaler into a science project for a bunch of free-thinking high school kids, that still had the innate potential to accomplish all the the basic performance goals I originally intended.


The kids would almost certainly take a much slower approach to performance. _I.e._, they need to learn a lot of things about what they're doing before they attempt to reach even the performance numbers I did over a decade ago on dragbikes. That allows a lot of cheaper parts substitutions that won't be pushed to their limits for quite a while - yet the design is there for the high-dollar, bulletproof, parts to be swapped in at any time.
Two the average high school kid is probably going to be a bit larger in stature than I am, so the top and NHRA cage can't be permanent fixtures. Being a Model T-based race car necessitates a smaller driver, but it should have some versatility.
Whatever is done now, has to be viewed as, and designed into the project as, temporary solutions to immediate problems. This allows it to always have the option of becoming everything "daddy" hoped it would be. 
Without further ado, the high school kid's Inhaler:











This is a rough draft, just to represent the general idea. The bed needs some detail work, that I may do eventually and swap the pic on my server.

The roof is gone, but can be added at any time. The point is to allow bigger people to fit, and reduce the "right now" to-do list.
The NHRA closed-body cage is gone for the same reason. A bigger person can get in it. It could be reinstated later, if necessary. The double dragster style cage is just for fun. For all intents and purposes, anything from a basic roll bar to this double dragster cage could be used and replaced as necessary. Because it should take them a while to reach any serious levels of performance, they can use bolt-in roll-over protection, if necessary.
The bed is back because it would allow a team of kids to load it with batteries, from Pb to LiFePo4 to LiPo, without needing special cases and tricky chassis work. It's a less than ideal location, with a higher CG, but it makes the project work better for them.
The doors wouldn't be cut now, but could be later. Without a roof, step-over is easy enough - it is supposed to be a race car.
The body still has the radical wedge section and pinch, because those two things are what really make the image of the project. I learned the hard way that too much is lost when they're not in the plan.
The stacks are still in the art (mainly because I forgot to remove them) but the forced-air system wouldn't be incorporated any time soon. It's too labor and time-consuming for what they would get out of it. That was a marketing tool, and their concentration should be on learning about design, fabrication, and performance.
Ironically, this probably means the Inhaler could move under its own power this summer afterall! Once the body parts are modified and mounted, the only thing there is left to do is add electricity. I was planning to do battery testing at 48 volts - pulling as much current as possible to see how much the Turnigy cells could tolerate, and how many cycles they could survive at those performance levels. 48 volts would make it easy to really push the packs hard, and replace them, at a low cost. Since it wasn't going to be on the road, top speed didn't matter. What did matter was components that could take the abuse. With this plan, I can use stuff like a junkyard two-piece driveshaft from an S10, four Pb automotive starting batteries, etc.

What I will be doing is putting together a package that prospective team leaders can "get" easier, along with a detailed plan on how it could work, and what it could be. If it looks like a little T, and can actually move around a bit, that should help. I don't really have a time frame for this, but it actually could happen by summer. My main concentration will be getting some other areas of my life in order, but I was planning to throw some change at this project along the way. Now I know what to look for and buy. Much different type stuff than I was after before.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Beautiful pic!

I am a mentor for my son's robotics team. Since I have all the tools they have been at my house the last few weekends building their little EV. It has been a great and rewarding thing to do. There is lots of computer smarts in the group, but not much experience with cutting metal, tapping threads, using pneumatics, etc.

This has been so much fun I'm thinking it would be fun to mentor an electrathon team in the future.

OK, enough of this love, joy, and make the world a better place stuff. It's time for some trash talking! Todd my EV went 55 mph after 1 mile (officially measured on the Salt Flats) on just 48V. Let's see those high schoolers beat that!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Beautiful pic!...


Thanks David. 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...It has been a great and rewarding thing to do...
> 
> ...This has been so much fun I'm thinking it would be fun to mentor an electrathon team in the future...


That's what I'm talking about. This is really the same thing as discussed a couple dozen pages, or so, ago - the Inhaler has grown up and started to choose its own path through life. It has actually become more than I had imagined. Being my little marketing tool/race car would be great, but being a tool that can change lives is awesome! 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...my EV went 55 mph after 1 mile (officially measured on the Salt Flats) on just 48V. Let's see those high schoolers beat that!


As soon as I find them, it's on Porsche guy!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

Can I throw a little cold water - 5 years -

I worked with high school kids on solar racers a few years ago, 
a long term development building on what was learned would have been ideal 
BUT instead it became an annual build with each year wanting to re-design and re-build

A 5 year cycle is probably too long - you can only expect to keep the kids from 14? -17?

If you are going to work with schools your cycle will need to one - three years max
with a single year being preferred so everybody get to see the whole project

If you can work inside that I think its a great idea


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Looking forward to your next project. We will be in Ohio twice this year, will I see you at any events? Would like to meet you.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> Can I throw a little cold water - 5 years -
> 
> ...


Hey Duncan,

I'm kind of modeling the whole idea off the OSU/CAR Buckeye Bullet Land Speed Racing Project/Team. There are a select group of individuals from their engineering schools that get to be on the team. The projects have been going for (I think) nearly a decade now. The project remains what it is, and the new members coming in are directed to focus on evolutionary development, not total redesign.

Personally, I don't think five years is enough. I think it will go longer. Race cars, even with massive sponsorship backing, have to be honed and perfected over time. Compounding the issue here is the fact that the Inhaler is a dual-purpose autocross and drag vehicle. They could spend years learning the black art of suspension design and tuning, and making subtle changes to the design to explore different ideas. Ditto for batteries. Every year there seems to be some type of new development in battery technology. If the project is a successful educational tool, they could score sponsorship from one of the otherwise unavailable manufacturers to test some new chemistry.

Basically, the Inhaler becomes a science lab of sorts. It is what it is, and you keep the little scientists focused on imagining and exploring different scientific theories. The project has to become a known, established, commodity that leads the kids somewhere.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Looking forward to your next project...


Me too.  (we really need an evil grin emoticon here!)




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...We will be in Ohio twice this year, will I see you at any events?...


Possible but not likely, even though I live really close to National Trail. I've been staying away from drag racing, like an alcoholic walking on the other side of the street when passing the bar - for a little while. I don't really do "brand specific" types of events either. I've been a Chevy diehard since junior high, but never went to an all-Chevy show, or parked my Camaro in the "Camaro section.




LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> ...Would like to meet you.


Considering our past conversations that could be really good or really bad.  I'm not one of those internet personalities. I'm more abrasive in person than I am online because here I can see what I'm about to say before I click submit. In person it's usually just out there.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't take our past to heart. Really good or bad, I can handle both. I will be in your backyard, just thought it might give you a chance to see me in person. 



toddshotrods said:


> Considering our past conversations that could be really good or really bad.  I'm not one of those internet personalities. I'm more abrasive in person than I am online because here I can see what I'm about to say before I click submit. In person it's usually just out there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I am actually enjoying the process of turning the Inhaler into someone else's vehicle.  I've been using all of you, the various conversion projects I've seen here, and the videos I've watched on YouTube, to create a mental composite of the hypothetical owner,and focus my efforts on designing and building a car for that person.

I still struggle with it when I look at the rendering or think about the fact that it would have to be pampered here and there, to not break parts or destroy the batteries - then I try to remind myself, it's not for me! Then, I start thinking about the high school kids and what would appeal to them and it puts a smile on my face.

For example, some of you guys around here have these darn SepEx motors and have been experimenting with making them work without an actual SepEx controller. One guy was running his with 16 volts of LiFePo4 on the field, which give the required 45-50 amps for max torque. David is blasting across the salt, and pulling insane levels of regen to fast charge his pack. My idea, which has since been validated by the guy running two Kellys in some little EV car, was to run a small series controller on the field. That, with a gauge, allows me to precisely have 45-50 amps for max torque, and weaken the field for more top end.

For racing though, I was going to have the field rewound to series and skip all that drama. For the purpose of helping kids learn, it occured to me that it may be fun and productive to experiment with the dual controller method, until the performance levels demand a bigger controller. Then I started thinking about how to control that apsect. Somehow, I came up with this idea of a tall, skull knobbed, shifter poking up over the windshield that was really a giant slide-control lever for the field controller!  Something like, spring-loaded, interlocking, textured surfaces could be employed to make it stay in the correct position.

There's a 50/50 chance on whether or not that will actually happen, but it was fun to think about, and is an example of the general direction this can take. That assembly could be cobbled together from a bunch of old parts cheaply, and just be an glorified way of operating a plain old PB-6 pot box, hidden in its base.

Would you do it?


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

wow turned off the E-mail machine for a week or so and look what happens in Todd's world!

Not a fan of just friction holding things in an automotive environ. Vibration messes thing around bunches.

Has a hydrolic dampener been considered? one where a certain amount of pressure must be overcome for movement to happen. Think a clutch slave with a Valve that does not let fluid out or back in until 50 psi of line pressure either in or out.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> wow turned off the E-mail machine for a week or so and look what happens in Todd's world!...


Lol, just making some adjustments. I'll keep reiterating the point just to make sure the funeral procession doesn't start again - *this is by no means the end of the Inhaler!!!* It can still be everything I ever intended, and more. In fact, I will be fighting hard to make sure it does. I'm just giving it the freedom to be whatever it needs to be. The high school kids' science lab idea is just that - an idea. If someone has another idea, a better idea, or a brighter idea, I'm all ears. Right now, that concept gives me a new perspective to work off to keep the project moving forward. Like David's salt challenge. I immediately pictured a bunch of kids around a ratty old street rod pickup trying to figure out how to beat that Porsche on 48 volts! 

Just to be clear - I'm not dead either!  I have been working on some other plans in the background for a while. The idea of having 1-1.5 megawatts of power in a package that's as tame as a tweety bird, until you push it, is totally irresistable to me. That wasn't even a consideration when this project started, and my efforts to stretch the Inhaler to accomodate that changed it into something it wasn't supposed to be.





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Not a fan of just friction holding things in an automotive environ. Vibration messes thing around bunches.
> 
> Has a hydrolic dampener been considered? one where a certain amount of pressure must be overcome for movement to happen. Think a clutch slave with a Valve that does not let fluid out or back in until 50 psi of line pressure either in or out.


Actually, I have the same reservations but I am trying to think outside my normal terms; to what the average tinkerer would do. Adjustable, positive, stops at 50 and 5 amps, along with spring loading towards the 50amp position, would make it safe. The worse case scenario is you're barreling down the straight towards a corner and it vibrates its way back to 50 amps and slows the motor. Frustrating but not dangerous.

The hydra-mechanical setup is interesting but too involved for the intended purpose. This whole setup could be tossed aside, when/if the search for performance dictates a series-wound motor. I realize that ultimate simplicity is just a knob controlling a pot, and that's what it may be in the end. I just had this brain fart and decided to explore it. The reason is simply to entertain the minds of the hypothetical youth build team. In my mind I heard, "that's cool!"


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

How about an old-style vertical brake lever, using the integrated stops to hold it in position.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> How about an old-style vertical brake lever, using the integrated stops to hold it in position.
> 
> Dawid


Thanks Dawid, I like that idea!  I'll do some research and see what I come up with.

Hey David *(Dymaxion)*, I can't remember how your setup is configured. How are you powering the field in your motor? Is it one of the infamous GE motors? Do tell, please... 


Still working through the transformation from Todd's Hot Rod, to the science lab hot rod by Todd. Another thing that occurred to me is all my perfectionist details don't have to be in the picture. The front suspension is a good example. I needed really elaborate tubular A-arms to be at peace with the front suspension, but for the science project I can simply cover them with vintage style fairings. They can box and strengthen the factory stamped steel arms, replace them with tubular, whatever... Combined with the track nose, it should give a nice vintage GP/salt flats look, while concealing the autocross-oriented SLA front suspension - cheap and easy like.

































Nothing wrong with any of these new ideas, but I would never be happy with them for myself. I just keep reminding myself - science project, science project, science project...

Where's Woody, this should be right up his alley?!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Where's Woody, this should be right up his alley?!


I'm right here, some of us have to work for a living you know!

I do like that little car, though.

I have been thinking about mine and how to design the nose cone but I will have a week now (half term next week so no college) to write four lessons on David Pye so that I can be observed teaching.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm right here, some of us have to work for a living you know!...


Tell me about it.  I've been stuck in that predicament for most of the past couple years - I can't wait to get back to having fun for a living! 

I've made the mistake of doing a good job at the job, and they keep increasing my hours. Yesterday, they hung some of the stats from the previous day, and I managed to beat everyone else in the store by a decent margin - and I don't even like sales! I'm just practicing so I can do better promoting myself, in my own career. As a result, my part-time side job has once again become pretty much a full-time gig.  I gotta learn to be a slacker.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

One caution: If you suddenly slam the field from 5 to 50 Amps you'll likely skid the rear wheels! A hydraulic control would have the advantage it would add some damping that would slow the control inputs.

The Salt Flats are great fun. I have spectated and done drag racing, autocross, Salt Flats land speed, and the road racing track. The Salt Flats are my favorite, it's the best mix of car show and racing, you see all kinds and eras of cars running. Running directly on the Salt Flats would be awesome, but even a virtual challenge would be great. BTW 55 mph on 48 Volts was just warming up! I have a web page 1/2 done about it, I need to finish and post that.

My car has a Kostov sepex motor. One contactor switches the field, another the armature. I did that because the field has such high inductance the current takes about 1/2 second to ramp up. The armature is instant, so the motor would rev up high for a moment. With 2 switches I can switch on the field first, and then the armature. You can also wire things to guarantee the field switch must be on before the armature can switch on.

My field control is four welder rheostats in parallel. I did four in parallel so they could handle the heat. I burned one of them up -- I need to blow cooling air on them.



toddshotrods said:


> ... Like David's salt challenge. I immediately pictured a bunch of kids around a ratty old street rod pickup trying to figure out how to beat that Porsche on 48 volts!  ...





toddshotrods said:


> ... Hey David *(Dymaxion)*, I can't remember how your setup is configured. How are you powering the field in your motor? Is it one of the infamous GE motors? Do tell, please...  ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> One caution: If you suddenly slam the field from 5 to 50 Amps you'll likely skid the rear wheels! A hydraulic control would have the advantage it would add some damping that would slow the control inputs...





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Has a hydrolic dampener been considered? one where a certain amount of pressure must be overcome for movement to happen. Think a clutch slave with a Valve that does not let fluid out or back in until 50 psi of line pressure either in or out.


I see your point guys. I could add a simple hydraulic damper to the vintage brake lever's mechanism. Motorcycles use them on the forks, and many are adjustable.




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...My car has a Kostov sepex motor. One contactor switches the field, another the armature. I did that because the field has such high inductance the current takes about 1/2 second to ramp up. The armature is instant, so the motor would rev up high for a moment. With 2 switches I can switch on the field first, and then the armature. You can also wire things to guarantee the field switch must be on before the armature can switch on.
> 
> My field control is four welder rheostats in parallel. I did four in parallel so they could handle the heat. I burned one of them up -- I need to blow cooling air on them.


Thanks for the info. I remember reading that it's important to "energize" the field first. I will do that even with the dual controller method, and may idiot proof the system, so the arm won't activate until the field is on, since this project could end up in the hands of hormonal, adrenaline-filled, teenagers! 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...The Salt Flats are great fun. I have spectated and done drag racing, autocross, Salt Flats land speed, and the road racing track. The Salt Flats are my favorite, it's the best mix of car show and racing, you see all kinds and eras of cars running. Running directly on the Salt Flats would be awesome, but even a virtual challenge would be great. BTW 55 mph on 48 Volts was just warming up! I have a web page 1/2 done about it, I need to finish and post that...


I've been longing to go to Bonneville for decades, but something always gets in the way. One of these years...


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Thanks Todd for the reference material exactly what I was looking for. And now on to the original topic; how about one suggestion for your switch pot, why not build a spring loaded gate like the old Hurst His & Her's dual gate shifter. With the spring keeping the shifter in it's respective gate until you move the detent button. Thus keeping the pot in it's respective position.With several positions in between to ramp up without shock loading the drive line to the point of failure or possable control loss.And with two diffrent gates you could have two different ramp up profiles one to drive one to race


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

lockduke said:


> Thanks Todd for the reference material exactly what I was looking for. And now on to the original topic; how about one suggestion for your switch pot, why not build a spring loaded gate like the old Hurst His & Her's dual gate shifter. With the spring keeping the shifter in it's respective gate until you move the detent button. Thus keeping the pot in it's respective position.With several positions in between to ramp up without shock loading the drive line to the point of failure or possable control loss.And with two diffrent gates you could have two different ramp up profiles one to drive one to race


You're welcome, glad I could help.

I like that idea and actually thought of using an old ratchet shifter, but the old brake lever idea gives a lot of positions relatively cheaply and easily - plus a nice vintage touch. I'm kind of thinking that this whole setup is just a quick solution to the problem of controlling the field, that will be hung on the wall when the need for a full series motor/controller combo develops. At that point the vintage brake lever could even be transformed into an actual brake lever for drifting - the kids would love that!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More of the same (art tweaks)...








I had raised the beltline in all of the most recent renderings, tapering up from the dash and windshield towards the back. That was to decrease the side window openings to enhance the chopped top look, and add the wedge section look to the body. Here, I did the wedge section the opposite way; by tapering it down lower in the front, and maintaining the stock sweep up into the rear wall. The dash and firewall are therefore even more radically lowered than the last rendering, to really accentuate the wedge section. The door bead is also back to the stock Model T shape, because no one has to contort through that little opening now. 

The point of all this is to decrease the amount of work needed to get it looking like this rendering, and create as much drama as possible in the absence of a roof. I have a handful of cuts to make to the body, bed and track nose; then simply 'glass it all back together in this form. The hood and front suspension fairings will have to be made from scratch, but I have some neat fiberglass tricks for that - I'll share when the time comes.

I also removed any type of roll cage, just for now. I wanted to see what it would look like without it; but, most importantly, I wanted to keep myself focused on the body. Any mention of roll cages and my wheels start turning. I don't want to find myself at the end of the summer with an almost ready to roll vehicle and a thousand bucks worth of custom bent and rolled tubing, waiting to be installed. 

Just waiting for the weather to break a little, so I can comfortably spend a few hours outside cutting and this should go together kind of quick. After I get all the bodywork mounted, I am going to concentrate on getting it wired up at 48 volts and moving. That will allow it to begin determining its own path through life. We'll see what kind of interest there is in the project when it's really tangible, but still very open to interpretation, and waiting for some formal interest and direction.

I'm still keeping my focus on building it for someone else, and seeing how it plays out. That is really a challenge because a lot of what I am doing isn't my cup of tea, and there aren't any real people to focus on yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...BTW 55 mph on 48 Volts was just warming up!...


For some reason, it just dawned on me that you said *55mph on 48 volts*! I finally heard back from the guy at the community workshop, and was sitting thinking about what to do next and those words rang like church bells in my noggin!  I had intended all along to get the Inhaler moivng on 48 volts, initially for creeping around (at golf cart speeds) at events, and then I realized it was also a cost-efficient way to punish some Turnigy cells.

The problem with those plans, that has been bugging me all along, is the thought of being limited to 25-35mph. Even though I never intended for the Inhaler to be a daily commuter, I wouldn't even be able to drive it, safely, to work at those speeds. I work three miles from home, but the speed limit down that stretch is 40mph. People aggresively jam cars, trucks, and SUVs, in my bumper at 45. Putting down that road at 35mph, in an adult-sized go-kart, didn't seem to make sense. The point is not being able to drive to work, it's that most of the streets around here are 40-and-up, so some reasonable top speed would be necessary just to get to a safe area. So, this realization just makes any 48-volt based start-up plan more practical, by adding a bit more real-world functionality to the vehicle.

Thanks for sharing David!  I'm looking forward to more info on what rpm you were turning at 55mph, how much current you put in the field, etc, when you get the next update to the website published.

As for the community workshop, he said the offer is "really intriguing" but there are some hiccups that would have to be resolved to do it. One, they don't have a drive-in height bay opening - only dock height. Even with the Inhaler only weighing in around 1000-1200lbs, lifting it up and down to get past the dock would be kind of interesting. I don't think they have a forklift in-house. They are also very limited on space, even though they just moved to a new facility that's four times the size of the one where I did some of the chassis work. They've managed to fill it to capacity in a matter of months.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think my tractor was close to 20mph on 48V and it was only limited by the gearing and my ability to stay in the seat.

The community workshop guy ysound like he is at least giving it thought which is good, I hope that works out.

As for getting the inhaler in and out of a loading bay you could make up a set of ramps, maybe in two parts to reach the height.
A small electric or hand winch would easily pull it up safely.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've hit 22mph at 48 volts with my 16:1 gearing in the AMPhibian, and driving 6 soft off road tires. I've often thought I could double that by swapping the 2:1 pulleys on the motor and transmission. I'd try it but they are different shaft sizes.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

The electrathon cars, running on 73 pounds of lead acid, generally two car batteries in series = 24 volts, are up to 62.1 miles in one hour, according to the Electrathon America handbook.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

At this rate Todd is going to be negotiating a Soliton Zygote running at 6-36V.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

An electrathon has gone 113 mph on the Salt Flats! They have their own class now.

http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2007worldofspeed/electrathon

http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2008/electrathon

Todd: 55 mph on 48V means drawing hundreds of Amps. That might overheat your motor if you need to go 55 mph for a long time or up a hill. It's not intuitive but more Voltage = cooler running motor. I don't know what my field Amps were for that speed (really should instrument that!).

Looks like my 48V conversion land speed "record" is safe from tractors and off-road 6 wheelers for now!


Darxus said:


> The electrathon cars, running on 73 pounds of lead acid, generally two car batteries in series = 24 volts, are up to 62.1 miles in one hour, according to the Electrathon America handbook.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

OMG! I thought I had posted this over an hour ago! I've been in a fog, battling my allergies all week, and laid down for a little bit - then woke up to find my post still sitting there in the preview screen!  Same gremlin that put the oil back in Woody's tractor diff must have blocked my post! Anyway, here goes...




Woodsmith said:


> I think my tractor was close to 20mph on 48V and it was only limited by the gearing and my ability to stay in the seat...





JRP3 said:


> I've hit 22mph at 48 volts with my 16:1 gearing in the AMPhibian, and driving 6 soft off road tires...





Darxus said:


> The electrathon cars, running on 73 pounds of lead acid, generally two car batteries in series = 24 volts, are up to 62.1 miles in one hour, according to the Electrathon America handbook.


Thanks for the feedback guys. Whatever path the old Inhaler ends up traveling this is very important, and encouraging, information. For a bunch of kids, exploring the limits of 48v, then 72v, then 144v, etc, could be a productive path to learning about electric propulsion. With a 1000lb vehicle, and an 11-inch motor, they would also learn about the effects of having full torque from 0rpm!  For me, it means a more productive tool to help guide me into my future plans.





Woodsmith said:


> ...The community workshop guy ysound like he is at least giving it thought which is good, I hope that works out...


Thanks Woody. He definitely seemed to be interested. He used the term "really intriguing" to describe the offer at the beginning of his email, and pointed out that he is intrigued again, after noting the hurdles in the way. He's also has a PhD in mechanical engineering (like the dude who machined the rear mount), works full-time-plus at his day job, and leads the workshop, so getting together and seeing if there's a deal to be made could take some time. I am mostly pleased with the fact that I've received positive reactions with everyone I've shared the idea with. It lets me know the Inhaler can actually manage just fine with or without me. It's become its own entity.




Woodsmith said:


> ...As for getting the inhaler in and out of a loading bay you could make up a set of ramps, maybe in two parts to reach the height.
> A small electric or hand winch would easily pull it up safely.


That was my first thought, but a loading dock is around four feet high. The transition at the top of the ramp onto the shop floor would be very challenging. At the Inhaler's max ride height (which would be kind of ugly as short is it is) it would still take a really long ramp. Ideally, something would be needed to lift the back end of the ramp, which brings up more space/storage issues, etc. I need to go take a look at the loading docks to see what's actually possible there.

Another thought I just had was a set of really huge loading discs!  Like 40" diameter, or whatever it would take to clear the transition from shop to ramps. They have a 4x8ft router table so they could easily machine a set of plywoood rollers for getting it in and out of the shop. 

Couldn't resist! The Inhaler - moonbuggy (er, I mean loading ramp) version! 












Woodsmith said:


> At this rate Todd is going to be negotiating a Soliton Zygote running at 6-36V.


Not for me buddy. I still have visions of pulling the trigger on 400+ volts and 4000 amps someday. Just exploring what can be done right now, with what I have (a bunch of random 48 volt stuff and an old forklift motor).




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Todd: 55 mph on 48V means drawing hundreds of Amps. That might overheat your motor if you need to go 55 mph for a long time or up a hill...


I'm cool with that. I like tearing $#*! up!  I still have no illusions of driving this little in traffic that much. It's just nice to know that it could do more than NEV speeds, at 48v. I'll just hook my monster forced-air system up to help it keep it's cool...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> At this rate Todd is going to be negotiating a Soliton Zygote running at 6-36V.


  

But I draw the line there, people... no Soliton Germ Cell edition, please!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)




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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Todd: 55 mph on 48V means drawing hundreds of Amps.


For what? A specific motor? Vehicle? Electrathon cars?


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> An electrathon has gone 113 mph on the Salt Flats! They have their own class now.


From what I've been able to find, the electrathon land speed record is 89.4 mph by Destiny Parts, and 113 mph was Kent and Brent Singleton with an electric junior dragster which didn't qualify as an electrathon - I calculate 150 pounds of lead acid.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> For what? A specific motor? Vehicle? Electrathon cars?





Darxus said:


> From what I've been able to find, the electrathon land speed record is 89.4 mph by Destiny Parts, and 113 mph was Kent and Brent Singleton with an electric junior dragster which didn't qualify as an electrathon - I calculate 150 pounds of lead acid.


Relax, it's not that serious dude. Just looking at the potential of a 48v setup. I don't have to duplicate anyone's specific results.

As for pulling hundreds of amps, I think he was thinking in terms of what I am building and how I will most certainly use it. To push 45-90c LiPo cells to their limits, even in small quantities, you're talking hundreds of amps. One 10s Turnigy pack would require around 450 amps to approach its theoretical limit.

Hmmm, speaking of that, a camera peering into a fire/explosion proof case would nice for seeing what happens after 90c.


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

I have a spare video camera that operates on 12v I like to see smoke and flames sometimes. it's really fun to let out the magic smoke from time to time, but really hard to put it back.all you will need is a DVR recorder we took it out thinking that it was not working turns out it does work I'll donate it to the educational cause/fun to watch magic smoke.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

lockduke said:


> ...it's really fun to let out the magic smoke from time to time, but really hard to put it back.


Cast it in resin, hang it on the wall for memories/bragging rights, and start cooking another one...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Something Jim said to me about my 11" in the trike is that at so little weight most of the time the motor wouldn't need to be working that hard given the torque it would put out.

I guess at 48V and low speed for most of the driving it will be short bursts of power and a lot of coasting in between.
As said, unless you are climbing long hills or running flatout I don't think there would be a problem. You can just gear it to get the urban speed you need at 48V without running out of rpms.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Something Jim said to me about my 11" in the trike is that at so little weight most of the time the motor wouldn't need to be working that hard given the torque it would put out.
> 
> I guess at 48V and low speed for most of the driving it will be short bursts of power and a lot of coasting in between.
> As said, unless you are climbing long hills or running flatout I don't think there would be a problem. You can just gear it to get the urban speed you need at 48V without running out of rpms.


You commuters crack me up!  Putting excess torque to work, when it isn't necessary, is the whole point. The whole point of a race car is to push it to its limits. Finding the point where those 295mm tires break loose...

As for the street driving, that's really a side point. As mentioned, I have no illusions of driving this thing too much in traffic. I was just surprised to learn that it could have enough top speed to do it - on the right day. Ideally, for the street, I would need higher voltage to run at least 70mph. That way I could get it on exit ramps, where it should really shine. Probably end up with my first traffic violation in 15 years too.


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

talk about gearing i myself used 7hp lawnmower motor and a 5 speed chevy trans to move a 60 model 30 passenger school bus half full of driveshafts .5 mile in 15 minets.
i wanted the bus and all i had at the time was 250 honda dirt bike and a broke mower


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More art. I needed to update the project's rendering on my site, and I wanted to make sure I was going to like the suspension fairings before wasting a bunch of time on them, in real life. This is about as simple as it gets for the Inhaler's build plan. Chop up and re-glass the body, bed, and track nose, and create the hood and fairings and this exists. I have almost everything needed in the garage already. That means it's just a matter of time, allowing me to focus on some other priorities financially without killing the Inhaler. Goal = end of April.








That's the goal for having it looking like this. The goal for getting it running on 48 volts hasn't been set yet, but I do have the Goodguys show here in mind (July). With this plan, the Inhaler continues on regardless of who, what, when, where, or why. If a high school build team option comes along fine. If someone falls in love with it and has to have it for themselves, we'll talk. If no one else ever does, I will keep picking with it as my other priorities allow. If I still have it when those priorities are resolved, I'll get back to the idea of seeing how fast I dare to go on 90". Any way you shake it the vehicle lives - it's just a matter of what that life consists of.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Todd,
I came across this and thought it might be useful to you and maybe Yabert and anyone else looking at high performance direct drive but not wanting reversing contactors..
Nova Racing - Reversing Gearbox.
Shame I can't use one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey Todd,
> I came across this and thought it might be useful to you and maybe Yabert and anyone else looking at high performance direct drive but not wanting reversing contactors..
> Nova Racing - Reversing Gearbox.
> Shame I can't use one.


Thanks Woody, I want to use reversing contactors though. I love, love, love the idea of just flipping a switch to go backwards.  That was one of the things I decided I wanted early on, that also contributed to the elimination of my transmission.

You have touched on something I've been thinking about the last week or so. Since I will be running my SepEx motor with two controllers for a while, to experiment, do I just need a reversing contactor on the field controller? If so, that would be nice because I don't need such a big honkin' contactor - the field is 50amps max. I plan to do some diagrams of the proposed wiring eventually, for the crew here to pick apart.

I've also informed the guy that I want some time in the community workshop soon. (We still haven't discussed the kids' project idea any further, so I'm moving forward with getting it together and running, for now) The first thing is I need to get the body parts chopped up, so I can finally mount them. Then I'll have some chassis work to do - mounting the driverhaft carrier bearing, shocks, etc.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You got it right, you just need to reverse the field.


toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Woody, I want to use reversing contactors though. I love, love, love the idea of just flipping a switch to go backwards.  That was one of the things I decided I wanted early on, that also contributed to the elimination of my transmission.
> 
> You have touched on something I've been thinking about the last week or so. Since I will be running my SepEx motor with two controllers for a while, to experiment, do I just need a reversing contactor on the field controller? If so, that would be nice because I don't need such a big honkin' contactor - the field is 50amps max. I plan to do some diagrams of the proposed wiring eventually, for the crew here to pick apart.
> 
> I've also informed the guy that I want some time in the community workshop soon. (We still haven't discussed the kids' project idea any further, so I'm moving forward with getting it together and running, for now) The first thing is I need to get the body parts chopped up, so I can finally mount them. Then I'll have some chassis work to do - mounting the driverhaft carrier bearing, shocks, etc.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I would assume that just reversing the field controller is all that would be needed. After all that is what you would do with a series motor.

I think I was thinking of the reversing gearbox because I think it was Yabert who wanted to avoid the losses in the reversing contactors?

I've still been thinking 'steampunk' and wanting a stonking big reversing lever that goes 'ker-dunk' as it is engaged.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

89.4 mph was a previous record, here is my write up for that: http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2007worldofspeed/electrathon . I did make a mistake, the current electrathon record is over 110 mph, not 113 mph. http://brucesherrydesigns.com/blog/2008/09/26/hello-world/ , and search on "cloud" on this page: http://www.saltflats.com/results_130_9_18_08.htm .

BTW the Singletons are friends of mine, great people. With fresh batteries their dragster could have gone much faster than 113 mph. The E1 record is open right now, it would be great if they would grab it. They didn't get it in 2007 because they ran 130 club rather than the full course. Here's my write up: http://explodingdinosaurs.com/saltflats/2007worldofspeed/electricjuniordragster


Darxus said:


> From what I've been able to find, the electrathon land speed record is 89.4 mph by Destiny Parts, and 113 mph was Kent and Brent Singleton with an electric junior dragster which didn't qualify as an electrathon - I calculate 150 pounds of lead acid.


48V and 100 Amps is only about 5 wheel horsepower. That is adequate for city speeds for a 2 wheeler, but you need hundreds of Amps (which is still only ~20 horsepower after sag) to drive a typical passenger car at low city speeds. My in-progress car ( http://ExplodingDinosaurs.com ) is 48V and has no current limit. It cruises neighborhood speeds on about 50 Amps, takes 150 Amps to slowly climb hills in 1st gear, but takes 100's of Amps to accelerate at a reasonable rate.

_[quote__=DavidDymaxion]55 mph on 48V means drawing hundreds of Amps. _
_[quote__=Darxus]_For what? A specific motor? Vehicle? Electrathon cars?[/quote][/quote]


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You got it right, you just need to reverse the field.


Thanks David. I've been working on the wiring schematic this morning, under that assumption. Nice and clean, plus the reversing contactor on the field doesn't have to be one of those monster deals. 

Thanks for posting the new info. I will absorb that later today - can't wait to dig in.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I've still been thinking 'steampunk' and wanting a stonking big reversing lever that goes 'ker-dunk' as it is engaged.


I have similar thoughts for the field control lever - only with a more antique auto flavor. I have my eye on an antique brake lever, and may snag it this weekend.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, before I get too wrapped up in this, I'm hoping to get some input. Nothing is written in stone yet, so fire away please.












Miscellaneous Notes:

The pre-charge resistors are shown in the contactors just to save space in the diagram.
Do I need pre-charge resistors on both main contactors? How many on reversing contactor?
Also not sure how the reversing thing works with dual controllers and just reversing the field. Would I have a separate switch, as depicted, or a DP toggle switch to "ignite" the field controller?
I have the armature controller switch feeding off the field switch, so that it can't be turned on unless the field is on, and will shut off if the field switch is turned off - for field safety. Should I have something like a pre-charge resistor in the circuit between them, so the arm can't energize until the field has been on for a certain length of time, or is that overkill?
Do you guys ground the 12-volt systems to the chassis, like a conventional automobile system?
The other switches are for stuff like lights, etc.
I didn't do the wiring to turn on the contactors yet. I wanted to get some feedback on how you guys wired yours. Would you just switch them on with the controllers, and let the pre-charge resistors delay the hit to the controller?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Nice diagram graphics!

You'll want to put the reversing contactor between the controller and the field -- the way it is now will blow up the controller when you reverse polarity to it.

The field is a huge inductor, and will do a huge voltage kick if you suddenly break current to it. Ideally you'd turn off the armature, ramp down the field, switch directions under no current, and then ramp back up. I'd probably throw a diode in, too, to let the inductor current freewheel down in case the reversing contactor was switched too soon.


toddshotrods said:


> Okay, before I get too wrapped up in this, I'm hoping to get some input. Nothing is written in stone yet, so fire away please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Nice diagram graphics!...


In my best Elvis voice, "thank you very much!" 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...You'll want to put the reversing contactor between the controller and the field -- the way it is now will blow up the controller when you reverse polarity to it...


Makes sense. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...The field is a huge inductor, and will do a huge voltage kick if you suddenly break current to it. Ideally you'd turn off the armature, ramp down the field, switch directions under no current, and then ramp back up. I'd probably throw a diode in, too, to let the inductor current freewheel down in case the reversing contactor was switched too soon.


None of that is a problem. I can probably make that whole process seem early 20th century-ish, and kind of cool. The right clicking and clunking will add to the vintage feel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, first revision, based on David's suggestions. An additional main contactor, or contactors, to power the field controller; with the reversing contactor moved to between the field controller and motor.










Main switch on powers up the main contactors and 12-volt system. (Would the main contactors be better triggered with the armature controller?)
The "field" switch powers up the field controller's primary contactor(s), and the field controller.
The Drive/Reverse switch powers up the field's reversing contactor.
Where does the diode go? Between the reversing contactor and field controller?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

You don't run main pack voltage to the reversing contactor. The controller outputs will feed the field the variable voltage (passing through the reversing contactor on the way to allow reverse). Another thought there, if you get a sepex controller it'll have an H-bridge that will put current through the field in either direction without a reversing contactor (you could program the sepex to not use it's armature, at least I could per the manual on my Curtis sepex).

Another thought is to put one of the main contactors in the center of the battery pack. This will cut voltages in half when the car is off.

The way the switches are, someone could turn on the armature with the field controller off (Bad Thing). You could do the armature switch on the output of the field switch, so the field switch has to be on to turn on the armature controller. However, if you have controllers (and not just contactors), probably better to just wire the controllers to the same on switch. For some controllers, you could have the High Voltage Enable go from the field controller's contactor to the input for the armature controller, so it wouldn't be enabled until the field controller pulled in its contactor.


toddshotrods said:


> Okay, first revision, based on David's suggestions. An additional main contactor, or contactors, to power the field controller; with the reversing contactor moved to between the field controller and motor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> You don't run main pack voltage to the reversing contactor. The controller outputs will feed the field the variable voltage (passing through the reversing contactor on the way to allow reverse)...


Got it, thanks. 




DavidDymaxion said:


> ...The way the switches are, someone could turn on the armature with the field controller off (Bad Thing). You could do the armature switch on the output of the field switch, so the field switch has to be on to turn on the armature controller. However, if you have controllers (and not just contactors), probably better to just wire the controllers to the same on switch. For some controllers, you could have the High Voltage Enable go from the field controller's contactor to the input for the armature controller, so it wouldn't be enabled until the field controller pulled in its contactor.


That probably looks that way because of how I did the graphics, but the armature switch is indeed powered by the field switch. The way I have it both field switches have to be on for the armature to be activated. Instead of a dual position forward or reverse toggle for the reversing contactor, I was planning to have center off position toggle, for a "neutral gear". That switch, has to be in "gear",* after* the field controller and contactor have been powered up. I tried to put in as much redundant safety as possible, but figure it's a race car - the operator is supposed to have a clue before strapping in and pushin buttons... 

I'll fix the diagram later to get rid of the hot wiring to the reversing contactor, and make the switch wiring more clear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I cleaned up the wiring to the reversing contactor, so that it is powered by the field controller's outputs to the motor. I also added a split blue/pink wire to it to signify the forward/reverse wiring from the switch to it; and sent a reverse signal (pink wire) from that switch to the armature controller, to put the motor at half-speed for backing up.

I also changed the armature switch wiring to power the armature controller *and* contactors. Finally, I clarified the graphics to show that the armature can only be powered up when the field is fully activated (field controller and reverse contactor). The main power switch sends power to the field controller/contactor switch (and the vehicle's auxillary systems) and the main field switch sends power to the gear switch (field reversing contactor), then that switch sends power to the armature switch. Abundant redundancy...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Plan is to chop the body parts up tomorrow or Tuesday, so they can finally be mounted to the chassis. I also decided on a hand control for the field controller. I bought an early 60's VW Bug shifter, and a skull knob with a German helmet! . I'm going to make the Bug shifter a big momentary toggle switch for a linear actuator or stepper motor controlling the field pot.

I've decided to leave the racing to others for now, and focus my efforts on street rod "cool factor". It *is* a race car though, and can live up to that promise in a moment's notice. I just don't have the time right now to pursue it. I am going to put the Inhaler to work as a marketing tool this summer, and see what kind of doors open. As crazy as it is to be in a big go-kart in city traffic, I've come to the realization that if it runs and is street-legal I'll most likely be out there more than I should be, dodging texting soccer moms in Escalades!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At least you'll have more protection than this guy 
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/05/video-translogic-takes-the-all-electric-z-kart-for-a-spin/


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> At least you'll have more protection than this guy
> ...


That's actually safer, because it's small enough, and has enough ground clearance, to find escape routes. See something coming at you on that, just hop a curb and wait it out in the grass!  The problem with the Inhaler is it's about as wide as a truck and low as a Lamborghini - can't go many places to get away.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I talked to Alex, the guy who runs the Columbus Idea Foundry (the community workshop), and set up the time for doing a little chopping on the Inhaler's fiberglass tomorrow. After that was set, I measured and scribed all my cut lines in the gelcoat, then packed up my tools. The next thing on the agenda was to go get a key and security code, and talk turkey with Alex about ideas, projects, shop, goals, life, etc. I just got home.

Not only will I be taking the body parts there tomorrow, the whole vehicle is going!  The Inhaler has it's own little creative space cubicle there for the next three months! Right now it's not the high school kids' project idea, just cross promotion between myself and the Idea Foundry. In exchange for the accommodations and networking opportunities, we're going to try to use the Inhaler to promote the heck out of their shop, and build on the OSU/C.A.R./Buckeye Bullet connection.

This couldn't have happened at a better time because they have the right blend of creative/technical approach to help me stay focused as it starts to go together. I also won't have to break it down to do fab work - just roll it over to the welding area and go crazy. They have a lot of tasty new equipment that has my mind buzzing with possibilities.

If we get its space ready, and the vehicle set up tomorrow, I'll post some pics...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, today was a complete bust. I've been using a small U-Haul trailer to move the parts around when I needed to do serious fabrication and welding. Today, the trailer lights wouldn't work, after a couple hours of other frustrating issues just to get there and get it hooked up. It's probably the adapter that makes 4-wire trailer lights work with Honda's European style wiring, but I ran out of patience before figuring it out. The guy kept trying to tell me it was a "frequency" issue  so I figured I'd be better off just bailing out today and getting away from him - before my blood reached full boil.  He was more interested in trying to seem intelligent than helping me diagnose the problem and fix it.

Frustrating because I saw it sitting in the Idea Foundry with the body parts all chopped up and mocked up. Might be next week now.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's annoying. It is why I have been building trailers as I have needed them then mess about with tired and rough hire trailers. I can't afford the good hire places as I can make a trailer for less.

Do you use a wierd trailer hook up over there?
We have a 7 pin 12N trailer plug.
There is also a second 7 pin 12S auxillary for caravans while the European 13 pin is slowly sneaking in.








I think I prefer the 13 pin and may change all mine to that set up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The 7-pin is used here, but mostly by larger pickups, duallies, etc. Light duty apps like mine generally use a flat 4-pin deal. Since my car has separate turn signal and brake light circuitry, I have to use an adapter (little electronic gizmo) to convert 5 wires to four. I think my adapter may be going bad. My frustration was he wasn't helping me try to isolate the problem - he just kept talking about the frequency of my car not matching. I was near rage inside, and decided going home was the best remedy.

I had my own trailer before moving here, but have only needed one three times in the last two years in my new urban/suburban lifestyle. Like I said, it was probably my equipment that was at fault. I was just at my limit of tolerance for stupidity.

I'm at the Idea Foundry right now, in a members' meeting, to at least mentally prepare the way for the Inhaler to take up temporary residence here soon. We might clean out the space, if there's enough time. If someone here wants to donate their truck and a little time it could make the trip tomorrow or Friday.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The VW shifter arrived today - absolutely perfect, perfect, perfect! 








It's the perfect height to put the skull knob up out of the cabin. It's the perfect (small) diameter tapered shaft to serve as a momentary toggle switch. It has perfect curves in the base and boot to fit my organic/vintage styling cues. Perfect.  I have a new boot coming because the seller said he wasn't going to ship the old one with the shifter because it was supposedly junk. He obvisouly did, and it's not that bad. It will work if the reproduction piece is not good quality, or is not the same shape. Either way, I'll have a spare.

I'll probably put a little more bend in the upper curve to accentuate the S-shape. Those skull knobs come with a flat base to allow people to use them as table/desk ornaments. I am going to create a matching mounting surface that tapers down into the shifter. If I get it right, it should be reminiscent of a spinal cord, but without getting too gimmicky with vertebraes, etc. Just an artistic suggestion of a spinal column. It'll also be removable (with some cutting and grinding) in case the whole skull thing gets old later, but the toggle switch is still wanted. The point of this, along with the wedge-shaped windshield, and removable funny car style roll hoops, is to add interest above the beltline since there won't be a roof.

We got about 1/3-1/2 of the space cleaned out last night. Alex said he'll try to move the rest of his stuff later today, or I can move it when I move the Inhaler in. It's his personal space that he's donating to the project for a while. Inside the shop, there are walled creative spaces that individuals or businesses can lease, giving them access to the shop tools, machinery, and community resources. Every step forward with this idea _feels_ better and better. It's really working well to get me focused on design and marketing again. Racing, CAD, and fabrication, were supposed to be validation of the design concepts not the point. Alex gets that 100%, and has the same interest in it for his end of the bargain.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's annoying. It is why I have been building trailers as I have needed them then mess about with tired and rough hire trailers. I can't afford the good hire places as I can make a trailer for less.
> 
> Do you use a wierd trailer hook up over there?
> We have a 7 pin 12N trailer plug.
> ...


In the US, it is legal to have the sidelights, brakes and indicators all on the same position (in some cases, on the same bulb), with the lights being dim, bright and flashing (respectively) to indicate their state. It makes the back end simpler to design, and trailers easier to wire, but it makes things (to my UK-trained eyes) difficult to see at a glance. Is that car in front turning, or does it have a burned out high filament? Add the confusion of a bad earth to the mix (he's braking, and signaling right, but the bad earth makes the left light dim when the right one's bright, making the lights alternate brightness in a trippy and confusing way) and it's a recipe for disaster.

Couple that with the headlights not having to be aimed in any way (Just a uniform distance from the road, which itself is exempt in trucks and SUVs) and you have night driving being horrendous and filled with dazzle.

In the UK, every year, all cars older than 3 years have to go for a safety inspection. This includes emissions testing, brakes, seatbelts, lights, exhaust systems, ABS (If fitted) and headlight aiming (To ensure they don't dazzle on-coming road users - UK regulations are here: http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000803.htm).


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The shifter is beautiful. An "S" shape would look neat.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

That the same old Beetle shifter that in my Buggy! Most likely been there since it had a steel body, complete with a roof, back in '64. It looks great but most aftermarket shift knobs will require an adapter as they won't offer that small of a thread. 
Here is a picture of a stock shift knob, except in black.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> The shifter is beautiful. An "S" shape would look neat.


Thanks David. I can't wait to start working on it, but I have to wait until the body is cut down to size because I don't want the knob to be over the windshield. Impatiently tapping my foot, and twiddling my thumbs... 



EVfun said:


> ...It looks great but most aftermarket shift knobs will require an adapter as they won't offer that small of a thread.
> Here is a picture of a stock shift knob, except in black.


Dude, you don't really expect me to do anything as easy as screwing a knob on the top do you!?  The top of the tapered lever is going to taper back out again into the base of a German helmet wearing skull! Picture an artistic interpretation of a spinal cord.  The knob just shipped yesterday.








I picked it because these skulls crack me up, and the helmet kind of matches the T-bucket body. There's also a hint of nostalgia there as well, as one of the most famous T-buckets ever built wore one:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I hope you're gong to shave off the spike


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I hope you're gong to shave off the spike


I wasn't planning to, why? It's probably only about 1/4 to 1/2" tall. If you're thinking accident, I'd be more concerned with all the other stuff that can enter the cabin space - road signs, tree limbs, debris, etc.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was thinking of grabbing the knob with your hand.


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

One thing for sure he will get the point if he isn't careful. but sometime that is the point


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I was thinking of grabbing the knob with your hand.


Oh, that won't be an issue. Since it's just a grossly exaggerated momentary toggle switch, and the knob is going to be (middle of the) windshield height, a firm grip is completely unnecessary. It will only take fingertip pressure to use.

Speaking of that, I am leaning heavily towards the stepper motor to control the field pot because the crew at the shop has a good bit of experience with them, and they build their own control systems. I'm thinking about a programmable control box that would allow any number of preset field settings (all infinitely adjustable) that would be accessed by tapping the shifter forward and backward - like a modern paddle shifter. Pull back to go faster, push forward for more torque. Hold it forward for a few seconds and it goes back to full field current/full torque. A totally electronic gearbox!  Over time, it would even be theoretically possible to program a full automatic mode.

I'm not sure how far I would go with this. It depends on what the limitations are, and how much/how soon I start craving more performance. It would be fun to experiment with now though. Setting up the basic control box, and programming it, should be child's play for the Idea Foundry crew.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I must say your current situation sounds great, I'm jealous. You come up with ideas and have a group of people who can implement them. Perfect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I must say your current situation sounds great, I'm jealous. You come up with ideas and have a group of people who can implement them. Perfect.


It's pretty cool, but there are always complications. I'm practicing for where I plan to go in my career. The main hurdles I have to overcome to make this work are time and focus related. The most talented of the guys have full-time jobs, families, personal projects, etc. Even if I had unlimited financial resources, they would still have a limited amount of time to contribute. Alex is a perfect example. He has a PhD in mechanical engineering, is absolutely brilliant, and loves creative stuff. He's been 100% into this project since he first heard about it, but he works insane hours at his day job, then runs the Idea Foundry with what little conscious hours he has left.

That also leads into the focus issue. Since a lot of these guys work so hard by day, they like to play at night (at the shop). They like fun stuff, and I am kind of serious (read boring) most of the time. Compounding the issue, I am a perfectionist (read OCD) who thinks getting details that no one will ever see "perfect" is fun. Mixing those two approaches will be a challenge, to say the least.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The new boot arrived today. I'm glad the guy shipped the factory boot with the shifter because I like it much better. It tapers up the shifter a little more and looks better, IMO. I can't wait to get my paws on that shift knob!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks David. I can't wait to start working on it, but I have to wait until the body is cut down to size because I don't want the knob to be over the windshield. Impatiently tapping my foot, and twiddling my thumbs...


Wow, I have been thinking about going the other way. Using a later model shifter and extending the handle (most likely replacing the handle) so I would have the shift knob visible up in the windshield when looking at the car from the front. I would use a real flat-top piston as the knob and stencil a red circle and slash on top. It would be a little bit of Rat Fink style as I figure my buggy has a lot in common with Rat Rods.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Wow, I have been thinking about going the other way. Using a later model shifter and extending the handle (most likely replacing the handle) so I would have the shift knob visible up in the windshield when looking at the car from the front. I would use a real flat-top piston as the knob and stencil a red circle and slash on top. It would be a little bit of Rat Fink style as I figure my buggy has a lot in common with Rat Rods.


That sounds pretty cool. Go for it! 

I took the new boot to work today, and played around with it between customers. I didn't realize it rolled down inside. I was able to pull enough of it up to look like the factory boot, except for the fact that the reproduction has a little ridge on it. It still looks good though, so I can use either.

I also sat a new trailer light adapter aside, but forgot to purchase it before we closed. I was planning to see if I could rent a trailer tomorrow morning and move the Inhaler to the Idea Foundry before I have to work. The weather is going to be really cold, wet, and crappy, tomorrow so I'm probably better off waiting until one day early next week. I'm itching to get it in the shop though and see it morph into the renderings.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New plan: I got my schedule for next week yesterday, and Monday and Tuesday are off days - perfect for transporting a certain little hot rod to the shop!  Tuseday is also supposed to be sunny and somewhere in the 50s, so hopefully I'll also be able to get the body parts chopped up and mocked up. I'm itching to get back to my design/marketing work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In the shadow of the post I just made in the Tailfeather thread about moving some or all of my performance goals to it, I figured I'd better put a disclaimer here:

This is not the death of the Inhaler, so take off that black suit, put away your eulogies, kind words, and shovels!!!  I am simply letting the "old Inhaler" choose its own path through life. It is still designed as, and will be built to be, a maximum performance toy! Ideally, the same battery pack that powers one will be able to be plugged into the other. Or, someone may come along with a plan to push it to the same ridiculous levels of performance and assume the lead in the project. I really believe it would make an awesome mascot for the Idea Foundry (kind of like the Geico gecko), and with their connections they might even be able to score some latest, greatest, battery technologies.

In any case, I want to remain formally connected to the project, whether its me or someone else at the helm. I will continue to brainstorm and report on it here.

So dry your eyes! 

I'm hoping to have some pictures, or at least reports, of it in the shop tomorrow.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler is now at the Columbus Idea Foundry!  I moved everything but the motor - didn't feel like wrestling that beast by myself, and I wasn't sure if anyone was going to be there. Fortunately, there were some guys there to help me carry the frame and rear end in. I forgot the lug nuts, so I couldn't put the wheels on it. I'll probably go back tomorrow and do that, so it looks a little better. I also forgot to take my camera (I knew that was going to happen) so no pics until I go back. We still have some stuff to move out of the space too.

I caught some malnourished-looking guy wearing a spiked German helmet loitering around my mailbox today.  I used a little lump of clay to kind of paint the picture where I'm going with this. The actual steel base will be much slimmer, with much more detail. The skull actually has little ribs extending down out of the base that I will continue in steel, like artistic little vertebrae. The part under the chin will really be slimmed down. It will accentuate the jawbone a little then pull down into the stem like muscles or tendons. I know skeletons don't have muscles and tendons.  The size is absolutely perfect. I wanted it to be small and not too obnoxious. When finished, it should be one of those little second look detail items.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Alex said he's already been showing the Inhaler off. He said "it's beautiful, and everyone's truly impressed!" That's interesting to me because right now it's just a chassis sitting on the floor, with the body sitting on it, the track nose in front of it, and a wheel off to the side at each corner. I can't wait to see what type of reaction it gets when it starts to gel into the image in the renderings, and when the real custom parts start going on it. I need to get the motor in it soon. That should also spice it up a bit.

I just purchased a little Saturn to assume duties as my daily driver, which will allow me to make the Inhaler my number one priority. I can let Tailfeather sit in the garage for a while, and just keep it mechanically fit for towing the Inhaler, and for back-up driver duties. I'm sticking with the plan of building the Inhaler as someone else's vehicle, because that is working really well. I am using the Idea Foundry as the hypothetical owner because their needs are the same as mine (marketing), and they have similar tastes and preferences.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to model and cast the shift knob base. I switched from clay to a polymer modeling material. When I am happy with the basic shape I will bake it (to harden it) then finish the details with rotary tools. I'm not sure what it's going to be cast in yet, but I want some kind of metal. Ideally, I would like to have it cast in something that can be welded or brazed to the shifter.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

I do hope you're aware that polymer clay (Like sculpey or fimo) shrinks around 20% when baked/hardened? Something to consider.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> I do hope you're aware that polymer clay (Like sculpey or fimo) shrinks around 20% when baked/hardened? Something to consider.


Yup, I've been using it for years. This is actually one of those two brands, but I can't remember which one. I've never observed 20% shrinkage though, just a little.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I couldn't stand knowing it was sitting there with so many people peeping at it with no wheels on. Poor little Inhaler must have been so embarrassed!  I put the wheels on, propped the bed up with some wood blocks, and threw the steering wheel/shaft on so they can crank the wheels back and forth.








Next up is chopping the body parts into pieces and putting them back together how they're supposed to be. If you squint, you can almost make out two of the cut lines on the firewall. They mark the 4.5" pinch (narrowing) that's about to happen; combined with about 6.5" of height that the firewall and cowl will lose.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's now a hard plastic piece, ready for detail work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I purchased a chunk of Birdseye Maple Burl wood for the steering wheel rim. I consulted with the resident Woodsmith to make sure it has the possibility of working, thought it through, then decided to roll the dice. Even though it's been aged three years, and has a 12% moisture content, Woody told me I have to cut in it stages giving it time to chill out between them. If I do it right I should end up with a sculptured masterpiece. I bought it now to allow months of whittling/chill time, if necessary, in hopes that it might be ready for primetime when the truck is up and running - or at least serving as a static marketing tool.

The plan is for the rim to be trapped between the front and rear halves of the spoke/hub assemblies. That way there are no bolt holes for it to crack around, and it has the freedom to make subtle adjustments over time. I want the end result to look antique, but I'm not sure how much yet. I want a matching Birdseye Maple faux antique crate in the bed, over the batteries, and I am tempted to make all the wood look old and weathered. Not sure yet.

The plan is still for the steering wheel to be the command center, with one small adjustment. Instead of that seven-way toggle switch I was planning for the center, I want a track ball. It'll look like a hemispherical horn button, but will actually be a mouse!  The only function it wouldn't have that the first idea would is the rotary function to adjust the forced-air blower's idle speed, but I can put a dial that looks like a trim ring around the ball for that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I put on my space suit (white paper painter's coveralls, with hood) then spent two and a half hours cutting the body parts up, and screwing them back together. I forgot to take my camera, but am on my way back there for a meeting. Pics of the lo-boy version later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sectioned and channeled.  Now I have to "glue" it all back together.


























Out of curiousity, I took the Woodlites to see how they look with the low-down version. I'm still up in the air about using them with the fairings. If so, they'll be notched around the steering rack to drop them down at least a couple of inches. I need to make a fiberglass pattern and see how it would look, before chopping the aluminum shells up. It would be nice if I could get them low enough to swing from the light bar/tower strut thingy - like big gothic lanterns!  I think I jut talked myself into it!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Those headlights need a couple of sidelights on top.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Those headlights need a couple of sidelights on top...


Haha!  They do look a little like that. 

You're just the man I wanted to "see" today! The process is about to begin on the burled birdseye maple steering wheel rim. I discussed it with the guy who runs the ShopBot, and with the resident carpenter/woodworker. The woodworker doesn't have your formal training but has done enough to understand what you told me, and has done some carving in burls. In fact, he actually has a chunk of burled birdseye maple there. He's from England, by the way!  He said all the best craftsmen are from England... 

I mainly wanted to discuss machining processes with the CNC guy, before I started really pouring the hours into the model. I like to design for how the CNC operator likes to cut, or at least some compromise that makes us both happy. We're going to cut the disc out of the block soon (on a bandsaw) and let it rest, as you suggested, before starting on the machining process.

I have two questions for you: Are you willing to guide us through the process? I can provide pics and information here, and go back with your instructions for the next step. I figured I'd put it in the thread to let others enjoy and learn.

Do you want some type of compensation for your expertise? If so, just PM me with the details.

Guys this, to me, is the pièce de résistance. This is the command center that looks like an old vintage tiller that can't do anything more than control the direction and honk the "oooogah" horn. It has to have one of those!  I've located a 37-pin round plug and socket, for the quick disconnect. Anyone have any experience with these, or the supplier? Is the price reasonable? These would be inside the wheel and column, totally concealing the fact that it has any electronic function inside. Remember, the buttons will look like rivet heads in the spokes. I think I also mentioned that I plan to put a track ball in the center, instead of my seven-way toggle idea.

Since there isn't going to be a roof to make the HUD possible, I am thinking about a drop down screen for monitoring and changing settings, and an HUD helmet for racing. Lots of details to work out. Alex and I had a quick strategy talk last night, and we are on the same page as far as direction, marketing, and networking are concerned. He's got connections with OSU, and a few large tech-based companies here. It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I am leaving the door wide open for the Inhaler to be whatever it needs to be, and go where ever it wants to go in life. Watching my baby boy grow up - sniff, sniff...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can try and help out where I can, Todd, allowing for the difficulties of not being able to actually handle the wood itself.

What I would say is that you want to have a datum surface to begin with. Plane one face flat and mark it as a face. 

Then, cutting much over size, just lop the corners off to get a 'nearly' octagon. The corners should be less then the sides in length to begin with. 

Take a core from the centre with a large hole saw, or jigsaw, to as round as you can saw. Not too big though, there will be a lot of waste on this block. 
Measure the diameter of the hole in a few places and write on the face what the diameters are.
Then rest it.

You will be able to monitor the face side to see if it moves off flat and also the hole in the centre will distort and you will be able to compare measurements with those taken before to see how it has moved. This will give you an initial idea of how stable, or not, the piece is and where it is wanting to go.
Check regularly until the changes reduce to only being slight.

If the face is fairly flat then you can saw some thickness off the block, again, keeping over size. If it is not flat then flatten it again and leave the thickness.
Re-measure and write the numbers on the face.

When the block shas stopped moving or is moving very little then you can take a bit more off the outer edge and the hole, and maybe a little off the thickness.
Then back to the marking and measuring and checking.

Try to keep a flat face as a datum each time you work it.

This process done over a few days or weeks, depending on the amount of movement, will slowly settle the block and you can then start gauging what it will do next when it is machined.
The more you machine off the longer it will need to rest each time to settle.

The process doesn't get any faster but it should start being a little predicatable as you machine each time.

Try to avoid forcing the block when clamping it down. Better to flatten the back or shim out hollows so that the block isn't deformed during clamping or working.

Anything you are not sure of at each stage let me know and I will try to elaborate my responses. Your local woody should get what I am getting at anyway.

I am going to be ultra cautious to begin with as we just don't know what it will do as yet.

As for my fee, I've already been paid in motors, controllers, batteries, vacuum switch, tractor spindles, friends, 
Just paying it forwards.

Have fun with it and I hope it doesn't turn into a pretzel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I can try and help out where I can, Todd, allowing for the difficulties of not being able to actually handle the wood itself...
> 
> ...Anything you are not sure of at each stage let me know and I will try to elaborate my responses. Your local woody should get what I am getting at anyway.
> 
> ...


That's awesome guidance Woody!  Thanks a million times over, and hopefully many billions more to come! (We really need a thumbs-up emoticon here.)

I'll keep you apprised on how it's going and definitely scream across the pond for help, if I get stuck or stumped.

If I end up with a burly pretzel, it will have been a magnificent journey. Do you like cheese or mustard on yours!  I'll post pics when the first cuts have been made.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I decided to do a quick Photoshop rendering to see if I should pursue the suspension fairing idea in real life. Yes? No? You don't give a hoot? 








The gap lines on either side of the grille are for headlight doors. They're that tall because the lights inside will likely be my beloved Woodlites.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just doesn't look right for the vehicle. Styling looks too modern and out of place, and they look too large for the size of the vehicle. Other than that....


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

The front end doesn't look right.........


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I think to pull that off up front you would have to balance it with some modernized (stylized) turtle deck in place of the Pickup bed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was afraid it would get this reaction. Unfortunately, the best *looking* option is a conventional straight axle. That means sucky ride and handling, and definitely no autocross. 

Thanks for the feedback, and for being honest.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I don't mind the combination of classic and modern styles, but it does look like it would be pushing an awful lot of air.

What if you move your lights out in front of the wishbones and make a deep cut in the fairing where you had the lights?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> ...but it does look like it would be pushing an awful lot of air...


I *knew* when I saw your name in the email notification there was going to be a comment about the poor aero characteristics!!! 




Darxus said:


> I don't mind the combination of classic and modern styles...


I wonder if it's the angle and rough sketch nature of the art that's making it look so modern? I know it's making the fairings look a lot bigger than they really are.




Darxus said:


> ...What if you move your lights out in front of the wishbones and make a deep cut in the fairing where you had the lights?


I don't really want to see them all the time, if I do go with the fairings. It's also not going to do very much night driving, so the covers would likely be removed by hand and stored inside the truck when the lights are on.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I *knew* when I saw your name in the email notification there was going to be a comment about the poor aero characteristics!!!


Hah. I don't mind the association. But if you want bad aerodynamics, I'll try to accept it 

Hell, the rest of the thing doesn't bother me at all, because doesn't look like it's trying and failing to improve aerodynamics.



toddshotrods said:


> I wonder if it's the angle and rough sketch nature of the art that's making it look so modern? I know it's making the fairings look a lot bigger than they really are.


"Modern" may not be the right word, unless it's relative to the Model T itself. Those fairings are certainly no more modern for a race car than the 1935 Mercedes-Benz W25 (nngh). But there is a stylistic... variation between a slick fairing and a T bucket.



toddshotrods said:


> I don't really want to see them all the time, if I do go with the fairings. It's also not going to do very much night driving, so the covers would likely be removed by hand and stored inside the truck when the lights are on.


You can still wrap fairings around those lights out in front of the wishbones.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Why do you think autocross is out? Karts with no suspension typically dominate all the cars at my autocrosses. My solid rear axle car has beat many "faster" IRS cars. Yes, independent suspensions are faster, but you make up for that (and probably more than make up for it) with light weight, low cg, and small size.


toddshotrods said:


> I was afraid it would get this reaction. Unfortunately, the best *looking* option is a conventional straight axle. That means sucky ride and handling, and definitely no autocross.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, and for being honest.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> ..."Modern" may not be the right word, unless it's relative to the Model T itself. Those fairings are certainly no more modern for a race car than the 1935 Mercedes-Benz W25 (nngh). But there is a stylistic... variation between a slick fairing and a T bucket...


You trying to say my T ain't slick?! Seriously though the way it's chopped up and put back together, it actually is pretty _slick - _compared to a stock T. The overall theme is along the lines of what the early 20th century guys would have done to get one across the salt faster. Concerning the Inhaler's fairings specifically, they did a lot of aero-looking things that, in retrospect, look like aerodynamic disasters (IMO). I'm trying to use that to my advantage. I'm trying to walk a tightrope of a modern race car that looks like what someone _might_ have done way back when.

The 37 W125 was kind of the inspiration for the fairings. This pic was posted back a "few" pages when I first went to the current roadster plan. Thanks for mentioning the earlier W25, adding some pics of it to my collection.











Darxus said:


> ...You can still wrap fairings around those lights out in front of the wishbones.


The point you're missing is I don't want the lights exposed. I did before, but now I want them to just be one of those insane details you see when you get a chance to look deeper. Where simple round headlights would suffice, I go through the trouble of hanging custom Woodlites. I definitely don't want anything else up front, and especially not in front of the fairings - there's enough going on there.





DavidDymaxion said:


> Why do you think autocross is out? Karts with no suspension typically dominate all the cars at my autocrosses. My solid rear axle car has beat many "faster" IRS cars. Yes, independent suspensions are faster, but you make up for that (and probably more than make up for it) with light weight, low cg, and small size.


I saw a couple try to compete in various autocross and road courses (television coverage of events) and, while they had respectable performance for what there were, they didn't seem to be in the same ballpark with the IFS vehicles. I agree with you 100% on the stick axle in back though - which is one of the biggest reasons the Inhaler has one back there, instead of IRS. Up front, I really want SLA - if I can make it work.

I think the biggest problem is the width. Like I said, these things are much smaller than they appear to be in the pics. If the front wheels were tucked in closer to the front clip they would look more like the vintage Benz racer above.

Dunno yet... I really appreciate all the feedback though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I kind of liked the raw look of the front end you had. Maybe some subtle paint highlights to make them look like bone structure. Don't know why you'd bother with Woodlites and then cover them up, might as well leave them home in the closet


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I kind of liked the raw look of the front end you had. Maybe some subtle paint highlights to make them look like bone structure...


That was the original plan, but the problem is it's 1000X the work to make the IFS look appropriate on an antique vehicle. Paint won't get it for me, there have to be a lot of custom parts - made to look old, but function like modern tech. The fairings would let me concentrate on function, leaving the responsibility for antique appearance to the covers. They isolate the roles and responsibilities.




JRP3 said:


> ...Don't know why you'd bother with Woodlites and then cover them up, might as well leave them home in the closet


Depth of detail. Everywhere you look, and the more you look, the more you see. I need to post some pics of modern hot rod builds. The level of craftsmanship that exists under the skin is absolutely mind-boggling. I've seen floors and firewalls that were nicer than the outside of many vehicles, and they were ultimately covered with sound insulation and carpet. Somehow, even when you can't see it, it all comes across. When you're looking at the final product you know there's something...

Plus, I can show the Woodlites anytime I please - just pop a cover off!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That was the original plan, but the problem is it's 1000X the work to make the IFS look appropriate on an antique vehicle. Paint won't get it for me, there have to be a lot of custom parts - made to look old, but function like modern tech.


To me the IFS parts look old just by their exposed mechanical nature. Certainly anyone who knows would realize they aren't vintage parts but they don't look incongruous.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> To me the IFS parts look old just by their exposed mechanical nature. Certainly anyone who knows would realize they aren't vintage parts but they don't look incongruous.


The problem with that is perception. Remember the Inhaler is first and foremost a marketing tool. *Factory style* IFS on old antique looking cars says rat rod - the really, really, ratty kind! The ones that someone takes an old car body and drops it down over an S10 chassis, then hangs all kinds of old stuff all over it. I don't want the Inhaler to be perceived in that light. I've actually seen some of those concoctions that I liked, but it's not where I want to go with this one. I'd rather for people to say, "it's nice, but those fairings don't quite fit", as opposed to, "hey it's one of those rat rods built on a mini truck!"

I still haven't decided what I like best. I've been up in the air about the fairings since I did the rendering. I guess the next step might be to do some full-scale mock-ups with poster board or foam.

On another note: the Inhaler has its first public appearance tentatively scheduled for April 23rd (as a static "green but fun" exhibit item)! The Columbus Idea Foundry is participating in the local Earth Day festivities, and Alex asked me if it could be displayed. Something like 10,000 people!  He really loves having it at the shop and has been promoting the heck out of it. There's also a possible feature in the local newspaper being discussed, with a photojournalist that visited the shop and got his pitch on the project.

We have a little less than a month to get the body parts glued back together and mounted, the motor mounted, and as much as can be done to make it look like the renderings. I plan to do the CAD models for the hood next week and see if we can get the foam plugs cut and parts laid-up. That means I'll need to make some decisions on those fairings soon, so I know whether or not to do models for them as well.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd,

A few years ago I was looking after a Mallock used in sprints and hillclimbs, I noticed that it was very difficult to beat the simple live axle of the Mallock with an independent rear.

After some thought I decided that on a smooth surface (no or only small bumps) (like a track) the live axle's ability to keep the tires square to the surface in roll and squat was almost unbeatable
The main disadvantage with the live axle was its unsprung weight

At the time I decided that a setup that would be worth trying would be a De-Dion (rear beam axle) and a beam front

I would suggest you sketch a front beam axle - without the traditional cart springs - with a more sophisticated mounting linkage

That could have the looks you want and the ability to surprise a few people on the track


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've not replied so far as I am still undecided about the fairings.

However, one thought popped into my mind that I am supposing that you have taken into account and that is any legal limits as to where the lights are. I think in the UK those lights would be a little low.

Anyway, that lead to the thought of the lights popping out or raising up, turning nearly a full 180 deg from the fairing. The shape of the back of the light pod, upside down could dictate the shape and design of the fairing.


I also feel a beam axle 'just looks right' with no evidence to support that claim. I think I have seen quasi-IFS systems with the look of a light weight beam, perhaps in aluminium.
Maybe the fairing could appear to be just the top half of a fairing with a beam just visible underneath linked to the lower ball joints on the hub swivels?

Actually, scrub that, it would affect the nose cone look too much.
Also I think the beam axle look works well on cars where the nose is all behind the axle, the further behind the axle the better it looks, and yours is not like that, the nose is forward quite a bit. I am also debating that in my design, nose forward or behind the axle.

I don't think the fairings look too bad, maybe too cylindrical. Would there be space to taper the look of it towards the wheel hubs?

Maybe making the wheel end a larger diameter and then flattening it to the beginings of an aerofoil shape a little so that it looks like it has tapered down but is the same height to clear for movement. Know what I mean?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...That could have the looks you want and the ability to surprise a few people on the track


It just doesn't play out that way in actual competition. These are a few autocross results from the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational. The competitors are chosen from the "best" they see (subjective) at certain events, during the year. The 32 Ford, IIRC, was built specifically for competition. It was supposed to compete in some big race in Mexico, and was eventually chosen for this event. Straight axle front suspension, with coil-overs, and all set up to handle as well as possible. Notice the solid rear end Camaro even bested the IRS-equipped, world-renowned Z06 Corvette. As impressive as the old Ford was, it just wasn't in the same league as the other cars. It's hard to get around cones and corners when the front wheels aren't where you need them to be. Nothing seems to get them in position better than SLA IFS.

32 Ford - *0:55.353*
02 Z06 - *0:40.708*
69 Camaro - *0:39.359*​




Woodsmith said:


> I've not replied so far as I am still undecided about the fairings...
> 
> ...I don't think the fairings look too bad, maybe too cylindrical. Would there be space to taper the look of it towards the wheel hubs?
> 
> Maybe making the wheel end a larger diameter and then flattening it to the beginings of an aerofoil shape a little so that it looks like it has tapered down but is the same height to clear for movement. Know what I mean?


I'm pretty much where you are, but I think I am leaning slightly more _towards_ the fairings than against them. As you're getting at, some design work on the shape could be the solution. The shapes in the renderings were just generic shaded images to test the basic idea. The goal would be to make the final surfaces appear to be antique.




Woodsmith said:


> ...However, one thought popped into my mind that I am supposing that you have taken into account and that is any legal limits as to where the lights are. I think in the UK those lights would be a little low...


Legal limits?! What's that?!  There are some basic guidelines for height, but on this type of vehicle they're not really enforced. I would just stick a couple aftermarket lights up high for the titling process, then toss them. I wouldn't worry about it on the street. Tailfeather's headlights are at or below bumper level of a normal car, and a cop has never even mentioned it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry for all the typos in that last post. I was rushing to post it before leaving for work, and didn't proof it first. I can't get a fully functional edit screen on my cell?

Typos in the last post have been fixed, I think...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Take two on the fairings. I went back in the (photo) shop, rolled my sleeves up, and started looking at where I could slim the fairings down, and add some detail. Again, this is just rough sketching. I didn't really try to nail the contours - just get something close enough to see what's possible.









The Woodlites won't fit with this version, but I'm not so hung up on them anymore. If I can use them I will. If not, I'll save them for next time.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

_*32 Ford - 0:55.353
02 Z06 - 0:40.708
69 Camaro - 0:39.359*_

I find these numbers surprising - 
In my day big sports cars like Corvettes and Camaro's were so slow! 
mini's and midgets used to run rings around them, 
the 7's and Westfields used to run rings around the mins and midgets - 
and the Mallocks would pee on the lot
That was on short circuits of course - a good high speed circuit and the wallowy old monsters would run away (NOT from the Mallocks)

I still think a good front beam axle should have the same advantages on the front as a live axle on the back - both wheels upright in turns and braking (front) accelerating (rear)
A bump would unsettle you more - but most track are pretty smooth

SLA suspension (or twin unequal length wishbones) can only be optimized for a specific condition 
(I optimized my mini for 0.5g cornering and 0.25g acceleration) at all other conditions the tires will not be held vertically,

If you try and optimize for cornering the (front) tires will go massively negative under braking

You can stiffen up to reduce roll and squat but that reduces maximum grip - well sorted cars like Lotus's are quite soft 

I will resist the temptation to cut the front off the Device to try this - I have already changed the front three times!

But the Mk2 (in a couple of years).......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...I find these numbers surprising -
> In my day big sports cars like Corvettes and Camaro's were so slow!...


Keep in mind these aren't stock vehicles. All three of the vehicles in that little sample were HEAVILY modified. Back when the cars were first built American production vehicles weren't optimized for turns, so it was easy for European cars to run circles around them - except when (as you mentioned) the course was long enough to use the power advantage. From the new production Vettes, to the custom vehicles being built in shops, the suspension geometries have been fine-tuned for world-class handling. I should have noted that there were also some thoroughbred European sports cars in that competition - that didn't come close to the top muscle cars. The Camaro/Fierbird and Mustang guys on a Pro-Touring forum I'm on, who race alot, love telling kill stories of how they put some bonafide European sports car in their rearview mirror on the track.

I love people who cut against the grain, but every single piece of real-world evidence I've seen points to the exact opposite of what you're saying. I just want to have fun racing, not get lost in suspension engineering. I chose the specific front and rear suspension setups I have on the Inhaler because most of the research needed to make them work has been done. All I have to do is fine-tune it to my application. Eventually the whole setup will go into suspension software for tuning, but I don't want to go there until it's ready to compete. It's really easy to get completely lost (in a _good_ way) in software, and I know me!  I'm tempted to pay someone to do it, even later. I have a lot of stuff designed already for the suspension system that should make this a fun project to tune and race.

*NEWS FLASH!*
I'm headed to a meeting at the shop now with Alex and a guy who works for, or is connected in some way to, NASA!  The connections Alex has never cease to amaze me. He has already been talking with some major players here about batteries. Nothing is concrete, it's all just talk and ideas, but the possibilities are intriguing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Awesome day today! The guy doesn't work for NASA, he owns a company that does contract work for various government branches and private companies, including some interesting military stuff. He's another PhD, and his (and his company's) specialty is advanced composite engineering. You know that perked my ears up!  He likes my little project, and we spent more than my fair share of time discussing it. He's going to look into a local place that may be able to help me with real bagged and autoclaved composites! 

*Here's looking at you kid:*
Even though it's not the crowd favorite here, and apparently not the other forum I post on either (no replies at all), I think I am going with the fairings - the first version. After the meeting, I spent an hour or so going over the Inhaler and trying different parts mock-ups. Nothing else completes my design like the fairings - they're technically perfect, even if they're not aesthetically so (in a vintage sense). I'll just do my best to make it all look "old". 

Finally having the body chopped up and repositioned, I am finally seeing the vehicle I have been chasing since February of 2005, and I like it. I like it because it really is the vehicle I was after all this time. It's the vehicle that _I_ have always wanted to build, but have never been able to for anyone else. And, possibly most importantly, it is exceeding my expectations as a marketing tool already. I have to follow through with my vision and see where it takes me. The fat tires are far from vintage, so the whole thing is a mix of new and old anyway. A couple more parts won't hurt. I'll overcompensate on the antique theme elsewhere to keep the balance.

*Final tidbits:*
The process of creating my over-the-top command center steering wheel rim will likely start next week. Following Woody's advice, the block of birdseye maple burl will go in the ShopBot to be planed true on one side, and a hole whittled out of the center. Then we'll lop the corners off, and let it rest. As that whole process is going, I will be working on the CAD models for the rest of the assembly.

The shop manager is one of the resident electronics gurus, and I briefly touched on the control system for the field with him today. It should be a cakewalk for him to create the programable controller for the stepper motor to regulate field current (via a pot switch). Later, I will also lean on him for the blower motor control system.

Between the new daily driver, and the Inhaler's move to the shop, I have found myself back into this project 100%. I thought when I moved it that I would have to drag myself away from Tailfeather to go work on the Inhaler - I haven't touched Tailfeather since I pulled it in the garage (with the exception of cleaning the interior out).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think I am going with the fairings - the first version. After the meeting, I spent an hour or so going over the Inhaler and trying different parts mock-ups. Nothing else completes my design like the fairings - they're technically perfect, even if they're not aesthetically so (in a vintage sense). I'll just do my best to make it all look "old".


I was thinking again about the original fairings.

This could be a bit off the wall but how about making the cylindrical part of the fairings the same diameter as the wheel rims so not touching the road, so it looks a bit like a mallet head. Any way to make the wheels steer without touching them or have a swivelling sections that steers with the wheel ?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Any way to make the wheels steer without touching them or have a swivelling sections that steers with the wheel ?


That's possible, but it adds complexity to a part that I want to be as simple and light as possible. That's why I am planning to make the headlight doors two simple covers that must be manually removed and stowed. The carbon fiber doors themselves will weigh ounces, and I can use the small flanged holes to create extra rigidity in the fairings, with no weight penalty.

Speaking of that, it's interesting where the structural integrity in the t-bucket body comes from. When I cut the bottom mounting flanges off (lower outside edges of the body that roll under to mount to the frame), the body felt like it immediately lost about a third of its torsional rigidity (as viewed from an overhead or plan view). Those were the first two cuts. Next, I cut the wedge sections at the belt lines, and it seemed to go down to about 50% of the orginal torsional rigidity. Those little beads running all over early cars weren't just there because they look cool! 

I had actually taken all this into account with the plan to cut the body up by myself. I examined the bucket and determined where Henry, and then the aftermarket 'glass companies, had designed in the structural aspects, and laid out a cut plan that would allow me and my jig saw to finish just before it became a total jellyfish. Worked like a charm. When it goes back together, it will have my own structural design elements to create an even lighter, stronger, tub (in the final carbon fiber form). These are cheap, chopper gun, parts but cutting them up you can see where they moved a little slower with the gun to reinforce the critical areas. Anything that wasn't important for strength, received about half the amount of 'glass.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Depth of detail. Everywhere you look, and the more you look, the more you see. I need to post some pics of modern hot rod builds. The level of craftsmanship that exists under the skin is absolutely mind-boggling. I've seen floors and firewalls that were nicer than the outside of many vehicles, and they were ultimately covered with sound insulation and carpet. Somehow, even when you can't see it, it all comes across. When you're looking at the final product you know there's something...


I think there's inconsistency here with your front suspension. You want depth of detail, but you're using a front suspension you feel a need to hide? Maybe rebuild an IFS that you're proud to show off?



toddshotrods said:


> Take two on the fairings.


That looks like an improvement to me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> I think there's inconsistency here with your front suspension. You want depth of detail, but you're using a front suspension you feel a need to hide? Maybe rebuild an IFS that you're proud to show off?...


You're not reading right. If there's true depth of detail, there's nothing on the vehicle that I am ashamed of and need to hide. On the contrary, I will be even more pleased with, and proud of, what's under the surface than what you see initially. By the time the metal fab, new control arms, and coil-overs, are in place I will always be itching to pull the front clip and show them off.

The fairings are to make people see what I want them to see, in the order I want them to see it. Understated design. If that doesn't make sense now, just hang on it should as the build comes together.



> understate _vb _*1*: to represent as less than is the case *2*: to state with restraint esp. for effect -
> 
> understated _adj_ *1*: *:* avoiding obvious emphasis or embellishment
> 
> Merriam-Webster


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Finally got around to studying some images of Benz W25 race cars - nice. 

























Not sure exactly what year/model this one is? I forgot to check before I closed the page.









This is a nice comparison. Regarding the Inhaler, imagine putting the body of the vintage car on the modern chassis, but concealing as much of the chassis and powertrain as possible, so your concentration is mainly on the vintage styling - at first glance. Then you start to figure out there's a modern race car inside.  On a significantly smaller scale, in this case, of course.








Check out the angle of the left front wheel of the vintage racer!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can see where you are coming from.

While having a look myself I found this and thought of you, not really similar but...








http://carsworld.northglow.com/technology/bentley-racing-concept-retro-design-modern-technology/


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

woodsmith said:


> http://carsworld.northglow.com/technology/bentley-racing-concept-retro-design-modern-technology/


 
*sweet !!......*


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I can see where you are coming from....


Being that I love doing art so much you'd think I would have used the "picture is worth a thousand words" idealogy more effectively. I could have superimposed some vintage race cars over modern race chassis a long time ago, and said this is what I'm after, huh? 

Just to confuse things again, I'll elborate. When you first see it the beauty of the antique lines and curves jump out at you, but it's also obvious (by the fat tires, stance, wide track, and proportions) that it's not really an antique vehicle. That draws you in to discover a complete modern race car neatly tucked inside the vintage body, and increasing levels of detail and craftsmanship the further you're able to see.





Woodsmith said:


> ...While having a look myself I found this and thought of you, not really similar but...


Actually when I first started this project, back in 2005, that was similar to the goal. I was building a completely modern take on a vintage roadster. I was developing a buck for a completely original composite body. Here are a few pics from 2008, just before I moved. My shop was a wreck because I was emptying it to sell it, and packing my stuff. You can see the tow bar that was used to pull it to the shop that stored it for me for a while.
























Yes, those are Chevy truck door skins and cab corners, along with some MDF, and steel tubing. A little more work, some wire mesh to fill the open spaces (that was actually added before I left), pour the foam, carve, sand, lay-up the 'glass, peel it off, discard the buck, and I would have had an original body.

The Chevy V8 was a valve job, and a couple mounting bolts from being ready to run. I had cut the old SLA front suspension off, and was planning on grafting in a straight axle. Then I met JRP3 on the Fiero forum, got hooked on this electric thing, and decided I would rather build an old Ferd instead of the original theme...

2+ years, 1100+ replies, and 91,000+ views later - here we are!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


>


Love the bottled gas for the passenger air bag!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Love the bottled gas for the passenger air bag!


Yup, you turn the nitrous valve on, push the button, and the passenger is guaranteed to remain pinned in their seat until you release it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A lighter return to a little CAD/CNC fun is in the works. I made patterns to create a CAD model for the hood and front suspension fairings. If I can get the models done in time we might start cutting the foam plugs Friday.  I'm trying to get it ready for the Earth Day event, and throw in as much of the shop's capabilities as possible. He's always wanted to demonstrate how the ShopBot can be used to develop foam plugs, and I don't have the time or patience to do matching sides by hand right now, so this is a perfect win-win opportunity.

Hopefully I'll have some CAD models to share in the next few days, and then some progress pics this weekend. After the parts are cut, they will be assembled on the truck, glued together and filled with Great Stuff, hand finished, then the actual fiberglass layup. I can't wait to see it with the hood and fairings!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So far, so great. I think this hood is going to be awesome. I love the shape! It should definitely add to the vintage/antique apsect. More to come...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> So far, so great. I think this hood is going to be awesome. I love the shape! It should definitely add to the vinatge/antique apsect. More to come...


I'm hoping for pictures of the process of making it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> I'm hoping for pictures of the process of making it.


That should happen. I just sent a text earlier about having someone there for photos and videos of the process. They need it for promoting their services and I want it for my documentation of the Inhaler's journey.

Edit: I should have added that I will have my camera there, at the very least, so there will be pics and at least (Nikon) pocket camera quality video. The videos I shot of the rear mount being machined were decent, so these should be okay.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If I have time later today, before I head to the shop, I will try to post pics of the front clip model (hood, nose, and fairings). The renderings of the fairings were subtle, and just a hint of what I had in mind, to test the basic idea. The real fairings are far from subtle. They have sexy early 20th century curves.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

For better or worse, love it or hate it, this is it. I added lots of curves, and did use small dips into the track nose and hood to allow their lines to flow a litle more uninterrupted. The model is pretty much a rough draft, so the plugs will be rough cuts, because I want to do some of the final details by hand - no sense in doing things twice. Like how the bottoms curve up towards the wheels - in the actual model that's straight so I can determine the exact shape and height, and make those cuts, on the vehicle.








That lower curve helps the fairings appear much lighter, and also allows a bit of mechanical presence as the lower control arms will poke through on the outsides. To get the fairings as low as possible, and still have room for suspension travel, I plan to also have a couple/few inches of the upper control arms visible on the top (outside edges). The plan is to make them the same basic shape as the fairing so when it's level you just see a metal piece kind of recessed into the composite fairing.

I was going to model the track nose over, but decided not to waste the time on it right now. It serves the purpose for me right now just to see how this whole thing will look. The real one will have the narrow slit "grille" like the renderings and, of course, will actually match the lines of the hood.

The blower poking through the side of the hood is not in the plan, but a little intriguing - especially if I had the cases cast in aluminum. It would be easy to do...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> For better or worse, love it or hate it, this is it.


Until you change 10 more things


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Until you change 10 more things


Too late for that, the ShopBot is cutting what I already designed... 

What are you trying to say J?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

No pictures yet, because this time we did what I neglected to do on the rear motor mount - practice!  We just worked on fixturing, tool paths, feed rates, step-overs, and testing on a piece of spare foam. Alex also gave me a crash course on operating the machine, so I can machine the stuff myself. I'm nearing complete burnout from days of little sleep, a lot of work, and a lot of school, so when I actually start machining the real plugs depends on how long I can keep my head up. Worse case scenario is Monday and/or Tuesday, when I'm off from the job.

In addition to the Earth Day event on the 23rd, the Inhaler may also be on display the following Saturday (the 30th) at an event at COSI (Center of Science and Industry), and there was talk by a couple shop members who actually work for COSI about it being displayed there when they have future electric vehicle/environment type events. Alex is also starting to work his connections, looking for sponsorship for batteries.

Step by step...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One final check before cutting the foam. I blocked in four hours of time today on the ShopBot. We'll see how much I can get cut. Alex estimated about two hours to machine everything, but I have a learning curve on the machine, plus some experimenting left to do, so I would be happy just to get the hood cut.

I put the renderings of the fairings from the 3D model in my photo-based art to make sure it was what I see in my head.









Also, here's one with a look inside the fairings.








Eventually this will be a thoroughly modern car wrapped by vintage skin. I like that fact that the entire front suspension is concealed, because that allows me to use the best components for the best performance. Tubular arms, designed for ultimate strength and best geometry, and double-adjustable coil-overs - no compromises to make them look "old". In back, I plan to use rocker arms to activate the coil-overs so I can tuck them up, out of sight, in the bed (preferrably horizontal). The batteries will be covered with an antique wooden packing crate so, at first glance, all you will see is a funky little antique roadster pickup. A true wolf in sheep's clothing...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

I don't expect you to be interested in either of these ideas for your front suspension, but I hope you don't mind me getting them out of my head here.

I'd just do a pretty normal (naked) F1 style front suspension with inboard coilovers. A rendering of something different I did several years ago, when I was still using povray, before I discovered blender:








(More here.)

Another possibility that occurred to me was taking a conventional straight axle, cutting it in the middle, and using it as the lower bits of a dual wishbone suspension. I think you should be able to pull it off with the only visible differences being a single supporting link for the top wishbone, and hinges at the knuckle. Might be able to disguise the top support as an unusual steering linkage (if you put the steering linkage up there, you'd need that support to pivot against).

I hope that helps me stop thinking about this....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> I don't expect you to be interested in either of these ideas for your front suspension, but I hope you don't mind me getting them out of my head here...
> 
> ...I hope that helps me stop thinking about this....


I don't mind at all. They're good ideas, but not for me - maybe someone else can use them - like you! 




Darxus said:


> ...I'd just do a pretty normal (naked) F1 style front suspension with inboard coilovers...


I don't want to see any exposed front suspension parts that aren't vintage in appearance. Long F1 style arms arms are sweet, but just not right for what I am trying to accomplish - _with this particular project_. I do believe that race rods are going to be one of the next trends in custom cars (it's really already happening), and I've seen some with this type front suspension that look wicked.




Darxus said:


> ...Another possibility that occurred to me was taking a conventional straight axle, cutting it in the middle, and using it as the lower bits of a dual wishbone suspension...


I actually have some designs like this that are pretty neat, but would require too much engineering to make work. The concealed SLA I am doing now can work well immediately, for pennies on the dollar compared to building something like that. Look for some neat stuff from me in future along those lines though.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I spent more time programming than cutting today, so there's not a lot to see yet. So far, I have the ten pieces that make the top of the hood cut. I plan to cut the sides of the hood tomorrow, and put it together on the truck, so there should be something more interesting to see. I have everything programmed and ready to cut - 28 more pieces. I'm not sure if I am going to do any video. The dust collection piece covers the real action, so it would be really boring.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

How did you get the necessary 2D shapes out of your 3D model?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> How did you get the necessary 2D shapes out of your 3D model?


Well, they're still technically 3D because each layer is sculpted to match a slice of the model. The software does this. I converted my models to STL format, and when they're opened in the programming software (PartWorks 3) there is an option to slice the model into sections for machining. You just choose the thickness of the material, and it cuts your model into the appropriate number of 3D slices. I had already cut the models up into sections before converting them to STL, to make machining inside the ShotBot's envelope easier, and to eliminate undercuts.








From here, the software slices each section into even more little sections - 38 in all, for the hood and both fairings. The thickness of the slices are based on the material you're using. Since they didn't have any 2" foam in stock at the time, we went with 1.5" thick material. Five slices each for the top halves of the hood, and three for each side section. The fairings were also cut into sections, and then sliced in programming.

Cutting the original models into sections also eliminates waste because it's a thick-walled piece, instead of a big solid block of foam. It'll also fit over the motor without having to hog out a bunch of material. The fairing are similar, but I will probably have to remove a little foam to get them in place.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sexy vintage curves play like a ballet during machining. 




I have 25 of 34 slices cut. I ran out of time and foam. One more day and I start putting the puzzle together. I finished the hood pieces, and cut both front sections of the two fairings, and one top section. One more top (3 slices) and two backs to go (3 slices each). The renderings don't do the parts justice - they have curves!  I knew his because I modeled them, but it's always an experience seeing the parts come off the screen into real life.

I would have taken more pictures but I forgot to charge my camera battery before I left. The videos wiped it out. I wasn't planning to do video, until I saw the router start dancing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I (think) forgot to mention that another date has been added to the Inhaler's calendar. The 27th of this month it will be exhibited at an event called Innovate Columbus. It's a meeting of 400+ presidents, executives, and technology industry leaders, to brainstorm on making this area a globally recognized leader in technology. My little one will be there as an example of what is possible with technology (in theory, as it's still a work in progress). Alex has connections to them, and they invited the Columbus Idea Foundry to set up an "Innovation Pod", and seem to be thrilled with the idea of the Inhaler being there. There was question as to whether or not it would pass through the entrance into the room where the Pods are, and they said just get it there - they'll display it somewhere!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I attended a strategy meeting for the Innovate Columbus event today - very interesting. The event is being headed by a non-profit incubator named Tech Columbus. One of the key business segments taking up residence there is - drum roll - batteries!  Tech Columbus is just down the road from OSU's CAR facilities, and one of their partners in land speed racing (Venturi) is one of the battery firms in the incubator. In other words, they understand what I need...

What I like most though is I am in the midst of a circle of individuals and entities that will really understand what I am after. The batteries, and the performance they allow, are needed to prove the point - they're not the point itself. The point is pushing the limits of design and technology. I had started pulling some of my more advanced design concepts from this project, because I couldn't find the right partners to realize them. I was going to tone the Inhaler down, and save them for a future project. It's all back on the table now. If the momentum continues to build, this should be a fun ride. 

I am pretty exhausted from balancing job, work, and school. I'm sleep-deprived, physically exhausted, but mentally hyper-active - which is creating a viscous circle. When I have time to sleep I can't mentally wind down enough to capitalize on it (like right now ), and when I am too tired to keep going I don't have time to stop! I'm having fun... 

I decided to put the field control buttons in the steering wheel, and just use the shifter for a Forward/Neutral/Reverse switch. It just makes more sense. Since there won't be a roof to prevent the sun from washimng out a traditional HUD display, I am considering something like these HUD goggles. They look pretty trick with some mild steampunk style enhancements and a leather helmet!


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I am glad things are looking forward for you and the Inhaler. Good luck and I hope you can bring all those ideas to fruition. Just a thought: you had so many different ideas as far as the Inhaler is considered, you might just end up having to built two 

Regards
Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> I am glad things are looking forward for you and the Inhaler. Good luck and I hope you can bring all those ideas to fruition...


Thanks Dawid! The funny thing is you guys only experienced the tip of the iceberg. For every idea you heard about here, there were probably ten or more that I didn't share!  That's the design process. Ideally, you have a goal and you explore every conceivable option to get there, until you find the best route. As a result of putting you guys through all of this (sorry! ), the Inhaler is working very well.



DawidvC said:


> ...Just a thought: you had so many different ideas as far as the Inhaler is considered, you might just end up having to built two ...


More like build _many_!  Most of the ideas that didn't work here will be used on some client's project later. Someday, I will go back to the drawing board and start over on the vehicle I was really after. As well as the Inhaler is working, and as much potential as it has, there are still things I wanted to do that won't be accomplished with it. I'm still working off the idea of building it for someone else. The Columbus Idea Foundry (CIF) is my hypothetical client right now. All the events it's attending are events the CIF was invited to, and I am fine-tuning the Inhaler to help market their services. It's naturally marketing me at the same time, because it's my "child".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We've scheduled for me to go check out the hall Tuesday, to see how to best get it in there. I'm also planning to finish machining the foam cores Monday, and start assembling them on the truck Monday or Tuesday. They need to be ready for 'glass lay-up by the end of next week. Hopefully, I can get the lay-up done before next weekend and spend the entire week after that detailing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler now has it's own website - a blog (InhalerProject.com).  I'll continue to post my usual drivel here, along with duplicate and complimentary info on the site.

I had intended to cut the rest of the foam cores today, but only managed to get three of nine cut because the guys were ready to go grab the motor. It's now on a little cart beside the truck. After I get the front clip on, I'll work on getting it installed. I still don't have a functional front mount so I may have to make a temporary band style clamp. After getting the body parts mounted, and motor installed, I'll need to get a driveshaft in place to do the floors and tunnel. That'll also put me a step closer to making it move.

I am going to finish machining the foam cores tomorrow, put them together, and fill the voids with Great Stuff. Tuesday, after the meeting, I can start carving and shaping it. It would be great to get the latex barrier coat done Tuesday too. I'll have pics of whatever I actually accomplish.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I finished machining the foam cores today, and bonded the slices together. I used Liquid Nails and just "spot welded" them together around the edges for now. I wanted to put the whole front clip together today, but the farings have to be gutted to fit over the suspension and the adhesive wasn't set firm enough to handle them that much.

























I've been looking forward to seeing the hood become reality for months now, and I love it!  I can't wait to see the fairings in place. Hopefully, that will happen tomorrow. If the Liquid Nails is cured, I should be able to get them in place and the Great Stuff applied.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Why didn't you use locating pins or something in the foam? How well did it line up without them?

Nice to see the progress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> Why didn't you use locating pins or something in the foam? How well did it line up without them?
> 
> Nice to see the progress.


Thanks Darxus.  I could, and normally would, have put alignment holes in the model so that they would be machined precisely by the ShopBot. In this case, I wanted the ability to fudge the alignment, if necessary, to get the exact shapes I desired. It was really easy to align the panels, even without pins, because there are some many curves and angles in each panel. I also purposely left these models a little on the rough side, because I wanted to finish the front clip "live" to adjust the surfaces for full-scale, real-world, lighting. I used CAD/CNC to save myself from having to match side B to what I did on side A. They're literally mirror images this way.

The whole process is at about 30 hours right now. I had about 12 in the models, and it took 18 hours to machine them. The CNC table wasn't running for 18 hours. A lot of that time was programming, fixturing panels, and making adjustments on the fly. For instance, I shortened the fairings three inches in programming because they would have been too long. I would have lost some of the contours trimming them to fit. Now they're perfect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Gutted the fairings, assembled the front clip, and filled the gaps. Next is a lot of carving and sanding, then 'glass lay-up. The can foam on the bottom is because it needs to bubble around the steering rack. There's more on the driver's side because that's where the pinion comes in, so the rack is a bit bigger there, and because I lost a chunk and got tired of fishing through the scrap pieces trying to find it.  I think I cut out and threw away half a sheet of foam! 

I positioned the fairings a bit higher than in the rendering because I like the way it makes the nose and hood look more hunkered down. It kind of accentuates the chop and section of the main body. The higher fairings also, obviously, give me a little more clearance for suspension travel.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good progress, fast too.

I must say the Inhaler looks a little like this chap .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I must say the Inhaler looks a little like this chap .


He needs a shave though  Nice progress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Good progress, fast too...





JRP3 said:


> ...Nice progress.


Thanks guys.  



Woodsmith said:


> ...I must say the Inhaler looks a little like this chap ...





JRP3 said:


> He needs a shave though  Nice progress.


Is there an image I can't see for some reason?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Your picture with the spray foam on the front looks like the tongue emoticon  that has some facial hair. I guess if we have to explain the joke it's really not that funny  Carry on.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Your picture with the spray foam on the front looks like the tongue emoticon  that has some facial hair. I guess if we have to explain the joke it's really not that funny  Carry on.


Oh, sorry to ruin the joke.  Went right over my head...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I wasn't sure from the cad picture, but that foam layup is looking good already. Not that you'd want to keep them in the final product, but I think the contour lines from the stacked machined foam look neat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I wasn't sure from the cad picture, but that foam layup is looking good already. Not that you'd want to keep them in the final product, but I think the contour lines from the stacked machined foam look neat.


Thanks David. I like the lines too.  I guess it's the CAD thing with me, because it's like looking at the splines I use to develop surfaces.

My biggest problem right now is time. This freakin' job was supposed to be a no-stress source of extra income, but it has been completely dominating my life lately. I think it's time to start thinking about re-opening my own business. I wanted to wait until I finished school, but these disposable jobs are not working too well. I work such long days the rest of the week, it'll be hard to get anything significant done again until early next week.  I'll try to find a couple/few hours here and there in the meantime, to keep it moving along.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler is really taking on its own identity, and making its way through life. My little fella just scored a spot at an Earth Day celebration at OSU's CAR facility this Monday!  We're talking about the CAR team that rockets across the salt falts in the fastest electric vehicle on Earth!  Alex is an awesome promoter and is working on collaborating with them on the Inhaler's development - especially concerning batteries.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The CAR event was awesome! First and foremost, the Inhaler was located directly behind the most current version of the Buckeye Bullet (2.5); and was presented directly after it in the tour! 

It took a multi-day marathon effort to get the Inhaler ready to go (even in it's work-in-progress state), but we made it. I finished prepping the car at 10 o'clock last night, then we had to get the truck and trailer, build ramps to lower it from the loading dock, and get it to the event. We succeeded on all counts, and the whole deal was an overwhelming success. Even managed to get a few hours of sleep in the process...

The beginnings of a relationship between the Inhaler Project and OSU-CAR were forged today. What I'm most pleased with is the fact that it was offered freely to us; not the result of some gimmicky self-promotion tactics. All we have been doing is presenting the project to people, and they are motivated to become involved in some capacity because they simply see something they like in it. I definitely feel like a proud papa, because my countless hours of design and planning are bearing fruit. 

I'll have pics soon. In my sleep-deprived stupor, I forgot my camera but Alex had his. As soon as I can, I'll get copies and share a few.

BTW: Buckeye Bullet 2.5 uses 7000 A123 32113 cylindrical cells.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Keep up the good work, Todd! Everyone would like to see the Inhaler in the flesh, so to speak, so *PLEASE* post those pics!

Regards
Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> Keep up the good work, Todd! Everyone would like to see the Inhaler in the flesh, so to speak, so *PLEASE* post those pics!
> 
> Regards
> Dawid


Thanks Dawid! 

Uh oh!  I hope I'm not raising any false expectations. The Inhaler is only a few steps beyond what you've already seen. We're purposely displaying it as a work-in-progress to market the services of the Columbus Idea Foundry. I even left the foam in its "bonded slices" form, so Alex could explain how it was done on their ShopBot.

All the work was to get everything ready for the Inhaler to be transported and rolled around. Until Sunday night all the pics have just been of a mocked-up vehicle, with parts just laying on the chassis to test my ideas. They're still not permanently mounted, but they are now attached securely enough that it could ride piggyback on an open race car trailer, even for a 60mph jaunt on the highway.

I did "shave" the foam "beard" down, and trimmed the lower edges of the fairings so that they roll up towards the wheels (as in the renderings). The bed has always been propped up with a couple wood blocks on the rear end, and is finally at least bolted to the rear axle, with u-joints and wood shims. It finally doesn't fall off every time I move the thing. 

Coming soon (I hope), I will start surfacing work on the front clip, and eventually get the 'glass lay-up done; the bed will be firmly mounted to the body, the windshield frame will be made and installed; then floor and driveshaft tunnel. Goal: to _look_ like complete vehicle, for marketing purposes.

Then, I start on the motor and driveshaft, the battery pack(s), the wiring and electronics, the brakes, the suspension, the wheels and tires, the interior, my forced-air cooling system, and the command center steering wheel! 

Whew! I'm tired now. I'm going back to bed...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My little one has been away, having a 4-day/3-night sleepover with the Buckeye Bullet cars and other CAR toys, and I finally went and picked it up today. I saw Alex but forgot to get event pics from him. I snapped a few of my own though. 

























You can really see the basic shape of the front clip here, and how it works with the overall package. Try to ignore the grille area. I am working on a model for a CAD/CNC foam section that will form the opening, and a couple other neat tricks I have in store for that area.









Back at the Columbus Idea Foundry, and ready to be pulled back inside. I have been after this profile for a long time. Chopped, channeled, and wedge sectioned - true hot rod stuff. Notice how it makes the vehicle look longer than 90" (wb)? This was the original plan (for the E-converted hot rod that started this thread) - low and sleek.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Inhaler looks good in the sunlight.

That is the sort of height and stance I want to get with mine but with a wheel missing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Inhaler looks good in the sunlight.
> 
> That is the sort of height and stance I want to get with mine but with a wheel missing.


Thanks Woody! Are you going for the truck bed and tow boom or sleek sports car? I really wanted a turtle deck, but having the bed makes more sense because I can stuff more batteries and electronics in the vehicle.

I forgot to mention that, while getting it ready to go to CAR, I sat in it and took a studio space/hallway ride! Sitting in this thing, cranking that little 10" wheel, and feeling it actually move (even under Flintstones power), is beyond awesome!!!  I did it before in the apartment complex parking lot, but it wasn't chopped, channeled, and sectioned then. It feels like my kind of hot rod now! We joked about letting me fly down the ramp into the Ide Foundry parking lot yesterday; an idea I was totally game for, but I think the other guys were a little apprehensive about actually doing it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

More art, using one of the latest pics, to explore the direction I think I am going with the front clip. Rather than poking through the hood, the "grille"-mounted stacks feed the forced-air system with - drum roll - forced air! 








If you're really observant you've noticed that there's a "glass" cover over the stacks, preventing air from being forced directly into them. That's for good aero - the real intakes would be snorkeled from below or to the sides. The stacks are actually in a carbon fiber airbox, which should resonate nicely, and be pressurized adequately at higher speeds.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I like the nose stacks better than side stacks.

I don't have your powers of visualization, so I'm not sure this would look good, but what about a single circular inlet, kind of like how early fighter jets would have a huge air intake on the nose? 

Way awesome getting a pic next to the Buckeye Bullet! I had the chance to get a pic of my 9Electric on the Salt Flats next to the Buckeye Bullet and the Killajoule, and like an idiot didn't think to do it!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I like the nose stacks better than side stacks.
> 
> I don't have your powers of visualization, so I'm not sure this would look good, but what about a single circular inlet, kind of like how early fighter jets would have a huge air intake on the nose?
> 
> Way awesome getting a pic next to the Buckeye Bullet! I had the chance to get a pic of my 9Electric on the Salt Flats next to the Buckeye Bullet and the Killajoule, and like an idiot didn't think to do it!


Thanks David.  I toyed with the idea of a single intake before, and there might even be some early (in this thread) renderings of something like that. I need vertical height in this case, to bolster the antique idea, and keep the nose from looking squashed since it's sectioned so radically. The metal trim piece will have much more detail than I show in the rendering - I just needed to test the idea, and would rather put the time in making a real part. I also _love_ the stacks I bought.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I imagined making this post so much that I didn't realize I hadn't actually done it!  The whole time we were at the Earth Day Celebration I was thinking about posting here, because of the overwhelmingly positive response the Inhaler received there. From kids (who all saw a big go-kart), to environmentalist types, to industry "big-wigs", the Inhaler was a rock star again. There are a couple more companies that wish to explore the possibility of cross-promotional marketing opportunities with the Inhaler, another local event that wants it to be present, and even a possible request for a promotional photo-op with the mayor of Columbus. That one came from the "assistant environmental steward" to the mayor. The request was for a possible photo of him in the driver's seat! 

































The kids went absolutely nuts over it! One little guy pleaded incessantly for a ride. Others expressed interest in taking it home. A couple made it over the side of the body and inside it before we, or the parents, could catch them - mind you these were little guys, barely taller than the t-bucket body itself. I think we found future Olympic high jumpers!  All were hands-on in their approval of the Inhaler's coolness. 

















Another thing I really need to do is get approval from Robert Green to put this forums logos in the marketing materials. I have explained to a lot of people that this is where I got my feet wet and learned the little bit I know (enough to be dangerous), but it would be nice to have the name planted in their subconscious from seeing it.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> .


*SURE, they were looking where to put the quarters.........*


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You surely do have tall kids over that side of the pond!

It really adds a sense of scale to the Inhaler.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

mrbigh said:


> *SURE, they were looking where to put the quarters.........*





Woodsmith said:


> You surely do have tall kids over that side of the pond!...


Goofy DIYers! 



Woodsmith said:


> ...It really adds a sense of scale to the Inhaler.


Yup. Absolutely tiny beside other vehicles. I'll have to remember to get some pics of it "in traffic". 

The funny thing is I like large vehicles. I don't even like little cars. This just happened this way because I followed the design where it seemed to want to go.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

It was very nice of you to let the little ones even touch it!


toddshotrods said:


> Goofy DIYers!
> 
> 
> Yup. Absolutely tiny beside other vehicles. I'll have to remember to get some pics of it "in traffic".
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> It was very nice of you to let the little ones even touch it!


To me, they're the important part - the Inhaler is a tool to reach them. I hope to provide a few of them with experiences they never forget, and ones that play a part in helping them get where they desire to go in life.

A huge part of the decision to follow the vintage race car theme was to have a vehicle that can be used, touched, and appreciated. A traditional show car needs to be pristine, a _vintage_ race car themed show car should look like it has been around the block a few times. 

The biggest reason we were trying to stop the ones who made it over the edge is there are sharp edges and screws poking out in there. Even on the outside I have to watch where they rub their little paws. I can't wait to have it painted and leave a show looking like it's a big toy that's been running around the play room by kid power all day!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Speaking of kids and paint and stuff: I have been kicking around the idea of a brighter color - like Ferrari Corsa red. All the chassis, wheels, and interior in black (contrasting paints, powder coating, anodizing, etc, in varying states of "shine" from flat to full gloss), with touches of aluminum, stainless, titanium, and nickel-plated here and there to accent.

To really highlight the vintage styling the fairings would be exposed, satin-finish, carbon fiber or flat black paint, and would be incorporated into scallops or something siimlarly vintage-appearing in the paint scheme. So, when you first look your eyes are drawn to the vintage nose, hood, body, and bed. As you look deeper you notice the fairings concealing tubular IFS, triangulated linkage locating the rear end, etc. Imagine, if you will, a hand painted pinstripe separating the red from the black scallops on the body, and maybe a number (23?) floating in the black.

I'll do some art eventually...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's great it generated so much interest and enthusiasm. Seems as if it's already performing as designed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's great it generated so much interest and enthusiasm. Seems as if it's already performing as designed.


Thanks J!  It's exceeding my expectations, and that ain't an easy thing to do.  I had planned to work really hard, in design and execution, to get from where it is, to the type of universal appeal it seems to have. Alex often says, when promoting the Inhaler, that it's an easy job selling something that sells itself - ditto for the design, it's working so well that I just have to follow along, observe, and capitalize.

It's really encouraging though, because every carefully concocted part of the plan that I reveal magnifies the effect. When I first took it to the shop and mocked it up, people liked it. When I chopped, sectioned, and channeled the body parts - X2. When I started cutting foam and stacking it, more positive replies. When I glued it all together and carved it out a bit - the show was on! I have sooooo much more...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If anyone wants to "join in on the fun", I need "Likes" on Facebook to get past the 25 mark - so the page can be facebook/inhalerproject. I need to start posting updates, but it's hard to be motivated when there are only 6 people paying attention. As the plans and progress ramp up, this will be the most up-to-date news on the project, including "live" pics and commentary from the events.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> If anyone wants to "join in on the fun", I need "Likes" on Facebook to get past the 25 mark - so the page can be facebook/inhalerproject. I need to start posting updates, but it's hard to be motivated when there are only 6 people paying attention. As the plans and progress ramp up, this will be the most up-to-date news on the project, including "live" pics and commentary from the events.


You and your roughneck car has now forced me to sign up to facebook .

Congratulations - there now are 32 likes and here is wishing you many more.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> You and your roughneck car has now forced me to sign up to facebook .
> 
> Congratulations - there now are 32 likes and here is wishing you many more.
> 
> Dawid


Thank Dawid! Welcome to the "connected" life. 

I forgot to post that I did the dedicated url = http://facebook.com/inhalerproject


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Event number three in the bag. Innovate Columbus was an innovation summit for hundreds of leaders, professionals, and students. Columbus Idea Foundry was invited to represent a portion of Columbus' diverse and growing creative scene. The Inhaler was one of its in-house projects on display, and the reception was warm and encouraging - again.  I was amazed that it somehow seemed like it belonged there, even in the rough, mock-up, state it's currently in. Proud papa, indeed. 
























It was an awesome experience.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

... and the rug to catch oil drips is optional!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ... and the rug to catch oil drips is optional!


The funny thing is they were a little paranoid about it, so we brought one and used it to increase the Inhaler's "psychological footprint". They admitted that electric should mean no drips, but mentioned digging out an old tarp or something to put under it!  That big (purposely) green patch on the beautiful wood floor helped draw attention to the project. 

Btw, it entered the hall through the doors behind it! We pulled the wheels off and rolled it in on two furniture dollies. Without the motor and wheels I could pick the entire front end up off the ground - easily - from one side!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler has been at the site of its next event (tomorrow) since Monday. Logistical hurdles forced an early load-in. By now, I imagine the Buckeye Bullet 2.5 is there keeping it company. Wish me luck, I'm working this one without my pitch man (Alex is out of town on business), and there are going to be very important industry contacts there. I'll have pics and details as soon as I can afterwards.

Until then, here are a couple from the last event on the 30th. There are more, but I forgot to download them from Alex's USB drive when I had the chance (I wasn't able to attend that event, due to my day job schedule). Kiddies love the Inhaler!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The car is already racking up some miles and it's not even running


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The car is already racking up some miles and it's not even running


 Miles and smiles! BTW, it runs pretty good on Flintstone's power. 

Even though I am taking forever to make it run, it's still serving a purpose as we have been aggresively marketing "EV" with it. I also received the thumbs-up from Robert to actively co-promote DIYEC. It'll be included in the next round of our marketing materials, and a forthcoming "links" page on the site.

There is also a retro/futuristic display stand in the works for the motor. I plan to have two motors - one in the vehicle, and one being developed and/or displayed. When the budget allows, I am seriously considering a third one that I can machine down to a cutaway version to educate people on how e-motors are made and work. One of the businesses located in the shop is an artistic metal-working shop named Metaldelphia. He's been itching to get his work on the Inhaler, and the motor stand is the first thing I requested.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Art time. I decided to return to the original grille plan. Here's a quick "scratch" I did to test the idea. I plan to cut this out and probably do some CAD/CNC work on it, when the Inhaler returns to the shop Monday.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I spent a couple hours making patterns, for CAD models, and carving on the foam plug today. I asked Alex (6' tall, medium/large build) to sit in the Inhaler to see if my plans to accomodate "normally" sized people was working. I was so amazed at how well he fit in it that I completely forgot to take pics!  I thought, even without the roof, he would have to stuff himself behind and under the stering wheel. He just stepped over the side and sat down - no drama. It's definitely a tight squeeze, but it's a race car, not a grocery getter.

The other thing I was concerned with was whether someone Alex's size would appear to be sitting _on_ a kid's toy!  Nope. It's obviously a very small vehicle, but not so much so that it doesn't look real. I noticed that too at all the events it was featured in. People seemed to see a real car, not a kid's toy. Maybe the advent of Smart cars and Fiat 500s in America, has paved the way for my little hot rod to be in the Big Boy's Toy club.

The CAD models are for the grille area body work, grille trim ring, carbon fiber "grille" panel, and the windshield frame. I'm also trying to get the foam plug finished and ready for 'glass lay-up, so I can finally get the motor mounted. That would motivate me to get it running...

I'll try to get some pics with him in it next time. Pics of the models and more CAD/CNC stuff coming, eventually.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday, I spent a little time "in the driver's seat" plotting and planning. Developing a thoroughly modern scratch-built vehicle is a never-ending challenge to figure out all required systems, how they will all be integrated, and (in the case of the Inhaler) how they will be concealed in an unsophisticated antique-appearing package. To balance the seriousness of the occasion, I occasionally "ripped" out into the main aisle under Flintstone's power; and did fun stuff stuff like whipping the steering wheel around imaginary autocross cones.

I was really testing clearances, looking for bugs, etc, but had a such a blast doing it that it was hard to call it "work"! 

I was also surprised to find out how comfortable the Inhaler is. I was perched on a 2x4, laying across the frame rails, and leaning against the back of the bucket body. I didn't want to get out! If I had been on a real seat cushion, and had some type of internet access, I could have sat in there all day! The seating position is awesome, the view is incredible, the steering wheel falls right into hand, and the pedals will be a straight shot for my right foot. The front is so light the steering feels like overboosted power assist right now, but adding 250lbs of motor should fix that. IIRC, when it was here, with the motor in it, the steering felt just about perfect. Still easily turned with one hand, but weighted enough to feel intimately connected to the front tires.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> The Inhaler has been at the site of its next event (tomorrow) since Monday. Logistical hurdles forced an early load-in. By now, I imagine the Buckeye Bullet 2.5 is there keeping it company. Wish me luck, I'm working this one without my pitch man (Alex is out of town on business), and there are going to be very important industry contacts there. I'll have pics and details as soon as I can afterwards.
> 
> Until then, here are a couple from the last event on the 30th. There are more, but I forgot to download them from Alex's USB drive when I had the chance (I wasn't able to attend that event, due to my day job schedule). Kiddies love the Inhaler!



Hey Tod, 

Is that steering rod going to stay out side the hood?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> Hey Tod,
> 
> Is that steering rod going to stay out side the hood?


Lol, nope!  The hood will cover what you see in that pic.  It's just easier to work on right now with it exposed. I will probably do the foam piece that covers the shaft in the next week or so, but it won't be permanently attached to the plug until it's time to lay-up the 'glass. I can remove the steering shaft and the foam plug in a few minutes with it like that. If I closed it in now, the steering shaft would be a pain to install and remove, making it a pain to get the plug off the vehicle.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Lol, nope!  The hood will cover what you see in that pic.  It's just easier to work on right now with it exposed. I will probably do the foam piece that covers the shaft in the next week or so, but it won't be permanently attached to the plug until it's time to lay-up the 'glass. I can remove the steering shaft and the foam plug in a few minutes with it like that. If I closed it in now, the steering shaft would be a pain to install and remove, making it a pain to get the plug off the vehicle.


OK, Great work, I was wondering if it was gonna stay out. 
Can't wait to see it done in fiber glass, have you decide the color?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> OK, Great work, I was wondering if it was gonna stay out.
> Can't wait to see it done in fiber glass, have you decide the color?


Thanks Albano!  I'm leaning towards classic hot rod red (actually Ferrari Rosso Corsa Red) or black right now, but no firm decisions. When I see it in my head and in design stuff, I see black. When I see it actually out in public, I see red. When it gets a little further along I plan to commission some really flashy full-color art renderings to make a final decision. I can, but don't like doing them. I like doing/using less "blingy" art to figure out how to make stuff work.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Albano!  I'm leaning towards classic hot rod red (actually Ferrari Rosso Corsa Red) or black right now, but no firm decisions. When I see it in my head and in design stuff, I see black. When I see it actually out in public, I see red. When it gets a little further along I plan to commission some really flashy full-color art renderings to make a final decision. I can, but don't like doing them. I like doing/using less "blingy" art to figure out how to make stuff work.


Todd,
It will look gorgeous in candy apple red and a motor plated like mine  and a bit of chrome.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> Todd,
> It will look gorgeous in candy apple red and a motor plated like mine  and a bit of chrome.


Red has been the "crowd favorite". Every time I have been asked, and said maybe red, the response has been enthusiastically, "yes!" A couple people at events said they were mentally picturing it in red before they asked.

As for the plating and chrome bling - I'm not that much fun.  It's still a race car to me, so I prefer finishes, coatings, and platings, that support (or at least suggest) performance. I know, I'm boring.  There may be some nickel plating here and there but, knowing me, it'll end up brushed.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking sweet Todd, especially with the kiddies on the driving plank.

It reminds me of a little hotrod in 'Street Rod USA' by Mike Key (Ospray Publishing London 1990)

















Images are a little skewed due to photographing the book pages.

That is the same sort of scale I was hoping for, makes for close cuddling with the honey.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Looking sweet Todd, especially with the kiddies on the driving plank.
> 
> It reminds me of a little hotrod in 'Street Rod USA' by Mike Key (Ospray Publishing London 1990)...
> 
> ...That is the same sort of scale I was hoping for, makes for close cuddling with the honey.


Thanks Woody. That's a nice little hot rod - looks good in black. 

The intimate cabin space is nice when considering a honey as a co-pilot, but there have been a lot of men asking for a ride when it's done!  Luckily for me, in that case, the Inhaler will have a pretty substantial driveshaft tunnel to keep their parts separated from my parts.  Have to make up for it later, with the honey.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The intimate cabin space is nice when considering a honey as a co-pilot, but there have been a lot of men asking for a ride when it's done!  Luckily for me, in that case, the Inhaler will have a pretty substantial driveshaft tunnel to keep their parts separated from my parts.  Have to make up for it later, with the honey.


You have space for a tunnel?
I barely have space for all four legs!

I also know a few men who also want a ride in the trike. It is a good reason to have a low power switch hidden away so that they can run it on their own, but on a short leash.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You have space for a tunnel?
> I barely have space for all four legs!...


Yup, but remember I'm building a street-legal race car, while you're building a sporty driver. There's also my physical size to consider, though Alex (at 6ft/med-large build) still fit in it easily. It'll be interesting to see him get in after the tunnel is in place. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I also know a few men who also want a ride in the trike. It is a good reason to have a low power switch hidden away so that they can run it on their own, but on a short leash.


Right. I'll probably do that as well, and save myself the discomfort. I wanted a valet mode anyway. Maybe one additional setting with enough power to make it interesting, but not enough to get in trouble...


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> As for the plating and chrome bling - I'm not that much fun.  It's still a race car to me, so I prefer finishes, coatings, and platings, that support (or at least suggest) performance. I know, I'm boring.  There may be some nickel plating here and there but, knowing me, it'll end up brushed.


Everyone has your taste, If you not fan of "bling" then go for Matt Black with green lines, Just like they doing here Matt black with "Monster energy drink" green as it will look cool on your rod.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> ...If you not fan of "bling" then go for Matt Black with green lines...


Haha!  I'll land somewhere between the extremes with the Inhaler! It'll have shiny paint - better aero. It'll have some power coating, anodizing, and plating - better corrosion resistance. It'll have just enough "pretty" stuff, but far short of "bling", to appeal to the masses - better marketing.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Haha!  I'll land somewhere between the extremes with the Inhaler! It'll have shiny paint - better aero. It'll have some power coating, anodizing, and plating - better corrosion resistance. It'll have just enough "pretty" stuff, but far short of "bling", to appeal to the masses - better marketing.


Cool, can't wait so see it, maybe I can learn something!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Hey Todd,
Congrats on passing 100,000 views of your thread. You are second only to Cro who just passed 150,000.
Great work for both of you.
Gerhard


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

albano said:


> Cool, can't wait so see it, maybe I can learn something!


Thanks. 


Now that the little rascal has been "home" long enough to get my head back into the actual work, I can resume my CAD/CNC process. I need to finish the grille area before the fiberglass lay-up can happen. There's a flange that needs to be in the foam plug to mount the trim ring and grille panel. I needed to decide on an actual shape to do that, and then needed to model the actual grille parts to build the flange in CAD.








I know the shape isn't exactly aero - it's marketing.  For really serious, high speed, work I'll probably have an aero panel that replaces this setup. The center hole is the intake for the forced-air. I decided to save my stacks for Scratch - they'll fit nice with the E-triple theme. My batwing "T" logo goes in the opening (without the text). It'll be cast or cut metal, on a black mesh screen. There's a trip hammer at the shop that I could make CAD/CNC dies for to stamp a really nice screen, with rounded edges, and recesses for the logo parts...

Keep in mind, as you're looking at this rendering, that the main body surface is .125" undersized to allow for moldless fibgerglass lay-up; whereas the grille trim ring and panel are exact specification, for pulling molds from. They'll be cut from wood or resin blocks and hand finished a bit. Then, a mold will be pulled from the trim ring for aluminum casting, and a mold from the panel for carbon fiber lay-up. The trim ring will be recessed into the fiberglass just a bit, but will still stick out.

I have a little more work to do on these parts, then I move on to the windshield frame, then the interior. That's for CAD work. As soon as I get the front clip plug finished, I am going to get it in fiberglass, so I can get the motor mounted.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Hey Todd,
> Congrats on passing 100,000 views of your thread. You are second only to Cro who just passed 150,000.
> Great work for both of you.
> Gerhard


Thanks Gerhard!  I'm humbled by how well-received the Inhaler is on and off the internet. I wanted to do something special to celebrate 100K views, like take a soapbox derby run down the ramps into the parking lot, but it's raining cats and dogs here. Okay, not really, and not really that much rain, but it's wet. 

As for Cro and his BiMoto project - my hat is off to him! I remember when I was like 10K views out ahead of him, looking back in my rear view mirror at that little green Beemer, with a white-knuckled death grip on the wheel, trying to jamb the accelerator through the firewall, to keep him from catching up. Then, he just blew by me and my little hot rod like I was in reverse! Show off! 

Lately, I've been watching that darn Camaro coming up fast from behind. It's hard to keep up with these guys on Flintstone's power.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I know the shape isn't exactly aero - it's marketing.


I hear Victoria Secret has D-cups on sale this weekend 

JR


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRoque said:


> I hear Victoria Secret has D-cups on sale this weekend


Ha! 

Ready to cut. I'm looking into the possibility of having the trim ring printed in plastic instead of being cut.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

It is starting to look awesome, Todd. Glad to hear that things are starting to move forward - everyone here is waiting for Inhaler to start moving under its own power. BTW, the only reason the green BMW and Camaro could overtake you is because of the inherent limitations of flintstone power - especially the lack of speed.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> It is starting to look awesome, Todd. Glad to hear that things are starting to move forward - everyone here is waiting for Inhaler to start moving under its own power. BTW, the only reason the green BMW and Camaro could overtake you is because of the inherent limitations of flintstone power - especially the lack of speed.
> 
> Dawid


Thanks Dawid!  I'm working on it guys. As I said stated, too many times, its effectiveness as a marketing tool was my main concern - now that I seem to have hit a bull's-eye with that, I am starting to think seriously about the motive aspects. It's also doing what I said it should do - the marketing plan is opening doors that I normally wouldn't have had access to. I have connections to battery manufacturers, massive research facilities, engineers of every type and sort, shops full of every type of machinery imaginable, etc. Very dangerous to let a creative type like myself have open access to all this. 

...have a Yabba-Dabba-doo time!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just a quick update: I have been doing a lot of design work, and quite a bit of CAD, (surprise, surprise, right ) so there hasn't been any tangible progress to show. Behind the scenes though, we're gearing up for big things.

Today, we had a meeting with a video guy. He has done work for National Geographic and My Classic Car (the guy with the crazy mustache), to name a couple. We start filming a documentary next month.  Beside my obsession with design, another big part of the delay has been Alex's desire to capture the process - tonight he came through BIG on that desire. We have to develop a treatment over the next week or so, do some planning and logistics, and the cameras will roll. We're talking big screen quality video here. 

We also permanently moved the Inhaler out of the cubicle-like studio space, into a section in the main shop, which is helping me with my design work. I can step back twenty feet and get a feel for things better.

More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I have been working on the windshield frame in CAD, and decided to do a quick mock-up with a couple scrap pieces of foam - it didn't look right on the vehicle - at all! It was really off, so I decided to abandon practicality and let creativity rule the day. Here's the new direction I'm going. Eye protection will be mandatory, as this thing won't accomplish much beyond fulfilling legal obligations and looking cool. 








I obviously have to join the stanchions and main rail with more CAD work. I have a few different ideas on how that will look. The stanchions will be 3D printed, then cast, and the main rail might be whittled out of 6061 billet...

I forgot to mention: We're setting a tentative time frame of later this year to begin building battery packs, and working out the systems, to have the Inhaler competing at some level of race performance next year. Alex has expressed interest in going to Bonneville next year. We're going to lay out a set of goals soon, to get on track for as many events as possible in 2012.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

I am going for "wind deflector" rather than "windshield" in my build,
The NZ definition is
Look through = windshield
Look over = wind deflector

No need for; wipers, demisters, fancy glass
Less frontal area - lower drag
The Seven guys mostly remove the windshields for racing

Besides in an open car if it rains the water collects on both sides of the glass anyway so goggles or a visor is better

I have just thought - some of the old cars had a gap under the deflectors - I wonder if this is part of making them work well?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I have been working on the windshield frame in CAD, and decided to do a quick mock-up with a couple scrap pieces of foam - it didn't look right on the vehicle - at all! It was really off, so I decided to abandon practicality and let creativity rule the day. Here's the new direction I'm going. Eye protection will be mandatory, as this thing won't accomplish much beyond fulfilling legal obligations and looking cool.


Looks very cool. I believe BMW (Or maybe it was Mercedes) that developed an "Air deflector" that created an up-current of air over the heads of the passengers, giving a calm area inside just like a windshield does. The "Windscreen" or "Windshield" would retract with the roof on a convertible and reveal the deflector. It was even strong enough to send bugs and light showers up and over. Unfortunately, it fell afoul of many rules, including silly ones like having to have wipers that cover a certain arc (No need for the screen, but you did have to have the wipers, oddly enough).

Anyway, something to think of, though it might take a fair bit of work in fluid dynamics to get it working properly.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> I am going for "wind deflector" rather than "windshield" in my build,
> The NZ definition is
> ...


Hey Duncan, thanks for posting that - nice info.  That's a really good point about water collecting on both sides of the glass - I hadn't thought about that. Interesting point about the gap - I remember seeing that. Aerodynamically speaking, mine will be "not so good" because I have a small concave surface under the glass that will trap air, and probably cause a bit of turbulence at the base of the deflector. More on that below...






Anaerin said:


> Looks very cool. I believe BMW (Or maybe it was Mercedes) that developed an "Air deflector" that created an up-current of air over the heads of the passengers, giving a calm area inside just like a windshield does. The "Windscreen" or "Windshield" would retract with the roof on a convertible and reveal the deflector. It was even strong enough to send bugs and light showers up and over. Unfortunately, it fell afoul of many rules, including silly ones like having to have wipers that cover a certain arc (No need for the screen, but you did have to have the wipers, oddly enough).
> 
> Anyway, something to think of, though it might take a fair bit of work in fluid dynamics to get it working properly.


Thanks Anaerin!  Again, nice info, thanks for posting it. Ohio Revised Code (ORC) states that the vehicle must have a windshiled wiper to pass registration (titling), and should have one to operate on public roadways (cops here aren't real fussy about stuff like that in real life). I have a design in my head for a small wiper that would clear the driver's side of this deflector (thanks for proper the terminology guys ). Again, it's really art posing as somethig useful. Most street rod guys want to get rid of stuff like wipers, but the idea I have in my head is so freakin cool it would actually add something to the vehicle. It would be a conversation starter, for sure. It would be driven by a small stepper motor, which would also allow me to play tricks with it in the programming. So far, I found a small one on Ebay pretty cheap (2" diameter, 1" long, .5" shaft), but it's not quite as small as I'd wanted. I haven't really searched yet though, just a quick browse so far. The idea I have would basically look more like a gauge than a wiper on a windshield, with a tiny artistic arm, and minature blade.

I want to run this at Bonneville, and am hoping for pretty _decent_ trap speeds in the quarter-mile, so CFD figures in my plans. After everything is finally in place I was planning to take it to Eric's and digitize the shape of the whole package (with the Faro arm CMM) for that process. This deflector will be fairly easily removed and replaced, so that the vehicle can be adapted for different types of competition. I'm thinking hard tonneau for land speed racing, and maybe a completely closed cockpit, with a bubble for the driver's head. It would be designed to attach in place of this deflector, secure to the cage in back, and probably tilt forward for ingress/egress. The deflector or tonneau will also be tied into the cage up front (bolted to brackets that extend up from the cage, under the body). The body has a natural wedge, and the resulting downforce needs to be channeled into the chassis. My guess is a simple tonneau that follows the shape of the body would have too much downforce/drag, so it will be interesting to see what develops. I know I will have a LOT of fun in CAD when that time finally comes!


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

The design of this deflector replaced the front screen with an angled slot, that took the forward-rushing air and compressed it and deflected it upwards. The original design didn't have any kind of screen at all, which is what caused the problem. My thinking is that you could have a screen attached to the removable roof (With wipers also attached). Then, when you drop the top (or remove the top, if it's going to be a hard-top), you also get rid of the extraneous wipers. I'm not sure if that would meet requirements or not. The concept car Acura TL features a wiperless windshield using a series of jet nozzles in the cowl to blow pressurized air onto the windshield, perhaps there's something there.

Doing a little more research, apparently the thing you're looking for/I'm talking about is called an "Aeroscreen", I believe.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Great stuff, I always enjoy the inhaler posts!

It's very exciting you have Bonneville Salt Flats plans. Justifiably so, the safety rules are quite extensive for the Salt. If you haven't already, I'd suggest getting a rule book ($10) so you can keep rules in mind as you design and build, rather than have to work hard to retrofit safety gear. http://www.SaltFlats.com 

Your machine would make for the ultimate in Salt Flats pics, you can't get a better backdrop.


toddshotrods said:


> ... I want to run this at Bonneville, and am hoping for pretty _decent_ trap speeds in the quarter-mile, so CFD figures in my plans. After everything is finally in place I was planning to take it to Eric's and digitize the shape of the whole package (with the Faro arm CMM) for that process. This deflector will be fairly easily removed and replaced, so that the vehicle can be adapted for different types of competition. I'm thinking hard tonneau for land speed racing, and maybe a completely closed cockpit, with a bubble for the driver's head. It would be designed to attach in place of this deflector, secure to the cage in back, and probably tilt forward for ingress/egress. The deflector or tonneau will also be tied into the cage up front (bolted to brackets that extend up from the cage, under the body). The body has a natural wedge, and the resulting downforce needs to be channeled into the chassis. My guess is a simple tonneau that follows the shape of the body would have too much downforce/drag, so it will be interesting to see what develops. I know I will have a LOT of fun in CAD when that time finally comes!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> ...My thinking is that you could have a screen attached to the removable roof (With wipers also attached). Then, when you drop the top (or remove the top, if it's going to be a hard-top), you also get rid of the extraneous wipers. I'm not sure if that would meet requirements or not...


The Inhaler is not going to have a roof now. I wanted a roof, but eventually let it be what it seems to want to be - roadster. It also allows "normal" sized people to fit in it. 



Anaerin said:


> ...The concept car Acura TL features a wiperless windshield using a series of jet nozzles in the cowl to blow pressurized air onto the windshield, perhaps there's something there.
> 
> Doing a little more research, apparently the thing you're looking for/I'm talking about is called an "Aeroscreen", I believe.


That's very interesting - I'll have to look into that more. If not for this project, maybe for something in the future. I doubt that it would meet legal requirements, but it's a cool idea though. Thanks for mentioning it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Great stuff, I always enjoy the inhaler posts!
> 
> It's very exciting you have Bonneville Salt Flats plans. Justifiably so, the safety rules are quite extensive for the Salt. If you haven't already, I'd suggest getting a rule book ($10) so you can keep rules in mind as you design and build, rather than have to work hard to retrofit safety gear. http://www.SaltFlats.com
> 
> Your machine would make for the ultimate in Salt Flats pics, you can't get a better backdrop.


Thanks David, I'm trying to build something interesting. Glad to hear and see that people like it, on and off the internet, in and out of the EV world. Definitely, on hitting the salt! I can't wait to have pics of it out there!  Good tip on the rule book. Will do. I hve an NHRA Rule Book, I should have one for slat too, and probably some road race and autocross rules.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

_Ohio Revised Code (ORC) states that the vehicle must have a windshiled wiper to pass registration (titling), and should have one to operate on public roadways_

Are you sure? - how about motorbikes? - tractors? - vintage cars? 

Our regs require a certain coverage of the windshield - which is why I included the definition

No windshield automatically means no wipers/demisters - a wind deflector does not even have to be transparent!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I like the "air" wiper idea! How about this for even wilder: No glass, just a slot of air that blows up to deflect the rain and bugs?

Salt Flats rules are pretty stringent, that would cover most things, but there are exceptions I remember. SCCA wants DOM (seamless) tubing for the roll bar, and I think the NHRA roll bar pads have more area than land speed. It would be good to check all that.

Don't mean to casually toss work your way, but a chart showing various things so you could build to the most stringent of several specs would be awesome. I did something like that when I was researching roll bar specs:

http://explodingdinosaurs.com/rollbar/

(Now just don't compare my work to Todd's! I'm just glad the car still drives after I work on it!)



toddshotrods said:


> Thanks David, I'm trying to build something interesting. Glad to hear and see that people like it, on and off the internet, in and out of the EV world. Definitely, on hitting the salt! I can't wait to have pics of it out there!  Good tip on the rule book. Will do. I hve an NHRA Rule Book, I should have one for slat too, and probably some road race and autocross rules.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

DavidDymaxion said:


> . SCCA wants DOM (seamless) tubing for the roll bar, and I think the NHRA roll bar pads have more area than land speed. It would be good to check all that.


I Believe DOM is NOT seamless, extruded is seamless, DOM is D rawn O ver M andrel and welded. almost as strong as extruded.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> _Ohio Revised Code (ORC) states that the vehicle must have a windshiled wiper to pass registration (titling), and should have one to operate on public roadways_
> 
> ...


The ORC regulation I was referring to deals with titling a scratch-built vehicle - in this case a four-wheeled, automobile, for use on public roads. It must have the basic safety equipment for the year it is titled. Windshield wipers were mandatory in 2011, so it would have to have at least one in front of the driver. It has to have a windshield made of laminated safety glass, though there aren't any stipulations as to the size and height of that glass. 

There is a bill floating around in the state legislative bodies that would allow me to actually title the Inhaler as a 1923 Ford Model T. If that happens before I title it, the vehicle will only have to have what a 1923 T had. It wouldn't be a 2011/12 specially constructed vehicle, it would be a 1923 Ford. Obviously, I am hoping for that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Salt Flats rules are pretty stringent, that would cover most things, but there are exceptions I remember. SCCA wants DOM (seamless) tubing for the roll bar, and I think the NHRA roll bar pads have more area than land speed. It would be good to check all that.
> 
> Don't mean to casually toss work your way, but a chart showing various things so you could build to the most stringent of several specs would be awesome. I did something like that when I was researching roll bar specs:
> 
> ...


I've been around the world and back on this issue. For a while, that NHRA Rulebook was dictating a great majority of what I wanted to do with the Inhaler. Eventually, I decided to use it as a reference and build what I wanted to. I won't build anything unsafe, if I can help it, and NHRA has a provision where you can submit engineering data for designs and configurations that are outside their given specifications - I'm going that route. Ditto for SCTA, SCCA, and whatever other sanctioning bodies I come up against. I will do my best, and then depend on solid engineering, with documented data, to convince them to let me run. Most of what I have planned is far beyond the capabilities of the vehicle, so I shouldn't have too much trouble. Hopefully.

I do plan to get SCTA rules, SCCA rules, etc, for reference. I appreciate the advice too. There are so many things to think about in trying to build a scratch-built vehicle, that is a race car, that is a street car, that is on the cutting edge of technology, blah, blah, blah, that it's easy to forget things.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> I Believe DOM is NOT seamless, extruded is seamless, DOM is D rawn O ver M andrel and welded. almost as strong as extruded.


Yup, you are correct.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd,

Do you have to have doors? - If I had doors the hinges and lock would have to meet certain standards - I get around that by not having doors

What is the actual wording of your standard?, ours says things like "wipers to clear...." does not specify that they have to be rubber things driven by an electric motor, an "air wiper" like the air knives we use in industry to shift oil may meet the legal requirements


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd,
> 
> Do you have to have doors? - If I had doors the hinges and lock would have to meet certain standards - I get around that by not having doors
> 
> What is the actual wording of your standard?, ours says things like "wipers to clear...." does not specify that they have to be rubber things driven by an electric motor, an "air wiper" like the air knives we use in industry to shift oil may meet the legal requirements


Nope, doors aren't listed as a requirement. I can't remember them being mentioned at all, actually.

As far as what the wiper must do, there aren't any specific requirements, IIRC. They're primary concern is basic safety. A lot of classic vehicles don't run wipers, and even when stopped it's usually not an issue. I have to get a new title, and pass a one-time vehicle inspection to do that. I was planning to stick a clunky clamp-on wiper on top of that windshield to get through the inspection, but the idea I have in my head for this one is so sweet I might make it a part of the vehicle.

As for the exact wording, I will try to remember to poke around in it to find that section - the code is for a lot of stuff, including vehicles. It's a pain to work with, and find stuff in. I'll try to find a link to it and post it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Just reading the SCCA rules, it's not clear to me if that was "seamless [or] ERW or DOM" or is it "seamless [and] ERW or DOM." Hopefully you gurus can help me understand how seamless fits in the rule quoted below, thanks. (BTW not an academic question for me as I plan to put a cage in my 9Electric and run both Salt Flats and road racing courses.)


SCCA Rules said:


> The roll bar hoop and braces must be seamless, ERW or DOM mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or chrome molybdenum alloy steel such as SAE 4125 or SAE 4130. It is recommended that mild steel tubing be used as a chromium alloys present difficulties in welding and must be normalized to relieve stress. Proof of the use of alloy steel will be the responsibility of the entrant.
> Note: ERW tubing is not permitted in any GCR class car registered with SCCA after 1/1/2003.





toddshotrods said:


> Yup, you are correct.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Just reading the SCCA rules, it's not clear to me if that was "seamless [or] ERW or DOM" or is it "seamless [and] ERW or DOM." Hopefully you gurus can help me understand how seamless fits in the rule quoted below, thanks. (BTW not an academic question for me as I plan to put a cage in my 9Electric and run both Salt Flats and road racing courses.)


I think they're calling welded tubing "seamless", because there isn't a weak, vulnerable, splitting point. You'll hear a lot of racers call DOM seamless - I used to.  What most of them are really trying to prevent are cages made of stuff like water pipe and conduit, that will split open upon impact. HREW (as my suppliers call it) and DOM, when sized properly, won't split open. If I am not mistaken, the process of *D*rawing the tube *O*ver a *M*andrel work hardens the weld area making it stronger. It's still hot rolled (and welded) tubing, like HREW. I think real seamless is dubbed CDS, for cold drawn seamless.

I _think_ all this, anyway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We start shooting video for the documentary tomorrow!  Just a couple hours of interviews and some shots of the Inhaler in its current (really rough) state, then fairly regular work and video schedules. As soon as the initial video has been captured, the work on the vehicle will resume. There was also a post on the Inhaler Project's facebook page, from one of the Inhaler's team members who works there, that the machine shop is ready to start making chips again on some of the CAD/CNC parts - perfect timing!  Team Inhaler is now eight members strong, meaning... I have help! The newest member is going to be doing CFD analysis, with CAD models of the vehicle to help us figure out how to keep it on the ground, and put big peformance numbers on the boards and in the books.

Onward and upward...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow lots of activity going on behind the scene, cool.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I like the web sites and look forward to future pics getting posted.

I remember not all that many years ago it was an automotive news story that the Corvette was the first production car to break 0 to 100 to 0 in 15 seconds since the Cobra. Then I see Todd's web page where he hopes to do 0 to 100 to 0 in under 10 seconds. My initial thought was "he must mean km/hr!" Then I did a little web research, and sure enough there are a handful of cars breaking 10 seconds. Wow, that's amazing progress in the last 20 or 30 years! Good luck with that goal Todd, you have a good starting point with the Inhaler.


toddshotrods said:


> We start shooting video for the documentary tomorrow!  Just a couple hours of interviews and some shots of the Inhaler in its current (really rough) state, then fairly regular work and video schedules. As soon as the initial video has been captured, the work on the vehicle will resume. There was also a post on the Inhaler Project's facebook page, from one of the Inhaler's team members who works there, that the machine shop is ready to start making chips again on some of the CAD/CNC parts - perfect timing!  Team Inhaler is now eight members strong, meaning... I have help! The newest member is going to be doing CFD analysis, with CAD models of the vehicle to help us figure out how to keep it on the ground, and put big peformance numbers on the boards and in the books.
> 
> Onward and upward...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Wow lots of activity going on behind the scene, cool.


Yup and thanks.  There's actually even more going on than I'm revealing. I'm purposely trying to keep the leaks and updates far enough behind the current events to give us room to adjust and adapt, and not disappoint. The project is very alive and doing very well. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> I like the web sites and look forward to future pics getting posted...


Thanks David. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Then I see Todd's web page where he hopes to do 0 to 100 to 0 in under 10 seconds. My initial thought was "he must mean km/hr!" Then I did a little web research, and sure enough there are a handful of cars breaking 10 seconds. Wow, that's amazing progress in the last 20 or 30 years! Good luck with that goal Todd, you have a good starting point with the Inhaler.


There are a handful of production cars, but probably quite a few performance and race cars that can hit the mark. The Inhaler was always meant to be a race car, from the very first post:


toddshotrods said:


> ...The goal is a very light, really powerful, street-legal, electric, race car; in vintage American form...


I've taken you guys through more twists and turn than I should have, but that has always been the goal. The constant changes were me searching for the best path to that end.

On that note, and regarding the performance goals, I'm pushing this project up to and beyond every conceivable limit. Everything that has been discussed here and more...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Then I see Todd's web page where he hopes to do 0 to 100 to 0 in under 10 seconds.


I guess it is harder to do with the all battery pack weight then with just a quart of gas.

I think the record is the Ultima GTR in 9.4 sec.

Good luck with that, I'm sure that if anyone can do it Todd will.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I guess it is harder to do with the all battery pack weight then with just a quart of gas...


Unless you build a vehicle that is basically a motor and battery pack with wheels!  You guys may have noticed that I don't really compare the Inhaler to other vehicles much - that's because I am purposely stacking the deck. In it's planned ultimate configuration, there's really not much to this thing outside of the motor, battery pack, and wheels. Probably 20-30lbs of body panels, some very lightweight brakes and suspension, a cage to connect them, some wiring, etc. What looks like a conventional vehicle is really an illusion - the body parts are like a scarf draped around a pretty woman's neck. In raw automoive performance terms, think Ariel Atom with a twin-turbo V8. The competition is not another vehicle, it's impossibility.





Woodsmith said:


> ...Good luck with that, I'm sure that if anyone can do it Todd will.


Thanks Woody - I'll do it or die trying. 




Today guys, was FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!  As I said, this is a professional video company, and dude has filmed for the media giants like the History Channel, and episodes of shows like My Classic Car. There he had guidelines, here his boss has given him cart blanche to show what he's made of. The ideas he has for this documentary project, and the stuff he's shooting, are definitely the kind of stuff you would be munching on buttered-up movie theatre popcorn, and swigging pop with, in front of a big screen. They're the kind of warm-up first scenes that make you smile and think that you're in for a great show - I hope we don't disappoint. 

I think it's all going to be set to pounding, pulsing, screaming, rock music - made just for the little rock star!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds like my kind of flick  So far my favorite EV video ever is this one, so there's your bench mark  Every time I watch it I want to decimate my bank account, rip everything out of the Fiero, and stuff in two motors and a bunch of A123's


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> ...so there's your bench mark...


Not really. Cro's videos and accomplishments are awesome, I love watching them and hearing about them, but it's kind of an apples and oranges thing here. Different kinds of projects, different goals, and different kinds of videos.

I've tried to be up front with you guys the whole way - I'm not really "green", and the Inhaler - though electric - isn't really about selling people on EVs. It is inherently a green-ish project, and will naturally promote electric propulsion, but that's honestly not the real goal. This is about people, about shattering our perceived limitations, about becoming more than we are. That's what you're going to see in the documentary.

I'm saying all this because I don't want you guys to watch it one day, looking for what you see in videos like Cro's, Lawless', Dube's, and Wayland's, and walk away disappointed. You will see an EV do some crazy $#!T, but it will be more about what Team Inhaler is able to do with an EV, not what an EV can do for the Earth; though that will be somewhat obvious. I'm also going to tell the truth about why I chose electric propulsion - that it was the only powertrain that would work in my design. I don't have a problem with gas, and still plan to build some gas-powered toys, but those little electric motors give me a freedom in design that isn't possible iwth ICE - in certain (but not all) cases.

Just wanted to be honest and up front...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wasn't expecting anything like what Cro did, just something as powerful and exciting. I also didn't see anything especially "green" in Cro's video, other than the paint job.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I wasn't expecting anything like what Cro did, just something as powerful and exciting. I also didn't see anything especially "green" in Cro's video, other than the paint job.


He's promoting electric, that was my point about all of the four I mentioned. I just didn't want to mislead anyone, and make them think I am shooting a video with the same intent. Power and excitement will be there in abundance later. For a while though, we will be documenting a lot of build stuff and information. My current goal is still to do a low-powered setup to de-bug and test, then the race setup next year. Then, I plan to push this little sucker to the point of breaking, and maybe beyond...

I really want to go to Bonneville, but a lot has to happen between now and next spring to make that happen. I'm doing some special chassis stuff that has to be submitted and approved by the sanctioning bodies and that could take longer than a year just to get approved. I've got a LONG way to go in CAD yet to pass it off for FEA, to even get that ball rolling. Maybe they'll let me run on 48 volts with the bar stool racers - lol!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I should add to this most recent discussion, that the Inhaler's innate "green-ness" seems to carry the EV/environmental banner quite well, despite my personal goals and convictions. Columbus City Schools emailed today asking if they can use the Inhaler in film and video to support and promote their STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) programs. I think that's going to happen in the next few days. The idea of using the Inhaler to promote STEM has been an steady undercurrent since our little intracity promotional tour.

Lean, mean, and green!  If I'm able to, I will post pics from the school system's shoot. I was too involved in the documentary shoot Friday to take photos, but I may I have a couple on my camera that I forgot about.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Todd, does this mean that after more than two years and a gazillion posts... u are actually gonna start building something? lol lol lol


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> Todd, does this mean that after more than two years and a gazillion posts... u are actually gonna start building something?...


Excuse _you_!  You mean *finish* building something!  There is a vehicle, and it would only take a couple weeks worth of work to be able to drive it. As I've stated repeatedly this is about far more than just building a vehicle - if that's all it was it would have been "done" a l-o-n-g time ago.

I just sent the to-do list for accomplishing this to one of the Build Team members. Probably 40-60 hours of actual work, but it all has to be coordinated around other project concerns (on-going design process, marketing/promotion, and now the documentary shoot, which is supposed to capture the build).

I have the sneaking suspicion that this shoot for the school system is the tip of another media/promotional blitz iceberg. We'll see how that affects the build progress... I've kind of been looking for a new personal project to give me something to actually tinker with since I have to _schedule_ my time with the Inhaler now!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Excuse _you_!  You mean *finish* building something!  There is a vehicle, and it would only take a couple weeks worth of work to be able to drive it. As I've stated repeatedly this is about far more than just building a vehicle - if that's all it was it would have been "done" a l-o-n-g time ago.
> 
> I just sent the to-do list for accomplishing this to one of the Build Team members. Probably 40-60 hours of actual work, but it all has to be coordinated around other project concerns (on-going design process, marketing/promotion, and now the documentary shoot, which is supposed to capture the build).
> 
> I have the sneaking suspicion that this shoot for the school system is the tip of another media/promotional blitz iceberg. We'll see how that affects the build progress... I've kind of been looking for a new personal project to give me something to actually tinker with since I have to _schedule_ my time with the Inhaler now!


Todd, would love to see you finish the car, it looks great. Good Luck!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd, would love to see you finish the car, it looks great. Good Luck!


Thanks Ron, I'll get there eventually.

Congrats on the 10.4! The Camaro comes out of the gate nice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We've done the first shoot of the documentary (last Friday), an audio session for it Wednesday, and the video shoot for Columbus City School system Thursday. They promised to give us a copy of their final product, and I hope to be able to post it on YouTube. It was pretty cool, and really brought home the point of this whole project for me. They had two of the school's teens pretending to be driving, working on, planning, and pushing the Inhaler around in the open, new, space of the shop. The kids (one of whom helped us with equipment for the documentary shoot) looked like they were having a great time, and I hope that it inspires them to do something meaningful in their own lives and careers. _That_, is what the Inhaler is all about to me!  I was truly a proud papa, that my little one has grown up to be a leader, and an inspiration.

After the school shoot, Vinny (one of the Team Inhaler members) and I cut the new track nose on the ShopBot. We plan to get it trimmed, assembled, and grafted in the front clip next week, and start working towards the fiberglass lay-up. Typical of me, I forgot to take pics (I had my camera there ). I'll get some next time I'm there, I think. 

As I posted in Ron's "Gearing..." thread, I found out today that Strange Engineering has made at least one set of 2.30:1 rear end gears, for a 1400hp 69 Barracuda LSR car. If they did it for them, they can do it again for the Inhaler. That makes my single 11" motor top speed plan at least theoretically possible. With a 32" tire, I can get 207-ish mph, by the time it reaches 5000rpm. Please note, I said *theoretical*. There are a lot of if's in that assumption. If, the motor can produce enough HP to get the vehicle there. If, the motor can turn 5K long enough to get there without self destructing. If, I can make the suspension geometry work out with a 32" tire (I actually have a plan for that). If, my CFD guy and I can find an aerodynamic solution that will stay on the ground, and put the air back together well enough to touch on the coveted 200 number...

The point is it was not even theoretically possible without the gears. My only chance with "normal" gears was to use a transmission, or different motors. Neither is a bad option, and I would/will go that route if necessary, but I wanted to at least try to attempt it with my preferred combination - on paper, first. Let the calculations begin.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Glad to see you thinking about the big 200! That would put the Inhaler in a very exclusive club. Like you say, gearing is just one of many challenges.

Even with a tranny my car is undergeared for my goal of 135 mph. I can put on taller tires and a higher 5th gear. If things get really serious I can also do another rear end ratio and taller tires.

Something else you'd want to compute is if the Inhaler can accelerate fast enough to get to speed fast enough with gearing that tall. It's so light it well could be it would accelerate fast enough on paper, but you might need to add weight to get enough traction and stay on the ground at high speeds.


toddshotrods said:


> ... I found out today that Strange Engineering has made at least one set of 2.30:1 rear end gears, for a 1400hp 69 Barracuda LSR car. If they did it for them, they can do it again for the Inhaler. That makes my single 11" motor top speed plan at least theoretically possible. With a 32" tire, I can get 207-ish mph, by the time it reaches 5000rpm. Please note, I said *theoretical*. There are a lot of if's in that assumption. If, the motor can produce enough HP to get the vehicle there. If, the motor can turn 5K long enough to get there without self destructing. If, I can make the suspension geometry work out with a 32" tire (I actually have a plan for that). If, my CFD guy and I can find an aerodynamic solution that will stay on the ground, and put the air back together well enough to touch on the coveted 200 number...
> 
> The point is it was not even theoretically possible without the gears. My only chance with "normal" gears was to use a transmission, or different motors. Neither is a bad option, and I would/will go that route if necessary, but I wanted to at least try to attempt it with my preferred combination - on paper, first. Let the calculations begin.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Something else you'd want to compute is if the Inhaler can accelerate fast enough to get to speed fast enough with gearing that tall. It's so light it well could be it would accelerate fast enough on paper, but you might need to add weight to get enough traction and stay on the ground at high speeds.


That's my probably my biggest concern, wth this goal, David. I can add weight and more motors and batteries until it works, but that would defeat the real goal of seeing if the Inhaler, in its true form, is capable of the big numbers - so that will be a last resort. I will be sharing as much as possible here, so if you see something that concerns you please feel free to address it. I am also surrounded by a bunch of safety-minded engineers, with various concentrations, that are constantly dissecting my big plans. I welcome it. I may not always listen, but I always appreciate.  Especially if I am wrong and fall on my azz - the words of wisdom have a way of ringing louder and clearer in that situation!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> [snip] if you see something that concerns you please feel free to address it. I am also surrounded by a bunch of safety-mineded engineers [snip]


That's pretty concerning. It is hard to do anything great surrounded by the safety police. The cutting edge just ain't that safe!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> That's pretty concerning. It is hard to do anything great surrounded by the safety police. The cutting edge just ain't that safe!


 You missed the part where I said I don't always listen!  I hear, but take liberty in what I obey. It's my project, I have the last word, and I like living on the edge. 




More on the 200mph goal: I kind of think of the Inhaler more in motorcycle like terms, when approaching goals like this. Actually one of my goals in this whole project was to build what amounts to a four-wheeled crotch rocket. I'll share my plans for LSR bodywork in detail later, and you'll see that I have ideas on seriously reducing the frontal area and Cd. If I can get that as close as possible (aerodynamically) to a large sport bike (with rider and a couple extra wheels), then power-to-weight ratios more in common with a bike might come into play. That's one area where CFD will really come into play. Bikes run that fast with around half the weight of the Inhaler's proposed weight. Imagine it with a completely closed cabin, with just a "tuned" bubble for the driver's head (inside the cage of course), and supporting cast bodywork specially designed and tuned to punch a neat little hole in the atmosphere and do a reasonably good job of putting it back where it should have been in the first place. Skinny wheels and tires, completely sealed, etc.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> More on the 200mph goal...


I may have missed it, but have you done any guestimating of the power needed to hit 200 mph with likely values for CdA (and downforce) for the Inhaler? I can only begin to guess what it will really take because I have no idea how much downforce you'll need to remain stable on the often-skittish salt, but if it were a "normal" car you're going to end up needing well north of 400kW. Should be less than 800kW, though... 

I also have little idea of the practical aspects of LSR, but IIRC the "track" at Bonneville is 10 miles long and if you use 8 miles of that for accelerating (ie - a drag chute for decelerating rapidly) and you need, say, 500kW peak, then you will need a 12.5kWh battery pack capable of delivering 40C peak, and 20C continuous.

Do you have enough space to store enough energy for a 3 minute run? Will the motor (a WarP11HV, I presume) be able to deliver the peak and average power demanded of it for two runs within 1 hour (and what kind of cooling will it take to do that? Fogging the commutator with a dry ice "flaking" nozzle?!?)? etc...

Not saying you can't do it - on the contrary, it actually seems well within the realm of possibility - just that you will have to optimize the drivetrain to get there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> I may have missed it, but have you done any guestimating of the power needed to hit 200 mph with likely values for CdA (and downforce) for the Inhaler?...


Yup. Been doing guesstimating on each and every goal the whole way through, and so far the rough numbers look promising. I haven't been posting much data here, yet, but I will as soon as we start doing some official "crunching". I should have a couple/few interns helping soon, which will get a lot of this information out of my head and computers, and make it presentable/comprehensible. 




Tesseract said:


> ... I can only begin to guess what it will really take because I have no idea how much downforce you'll need to remain stable on the often-skittish salt, but if it were a "normal" car you're going to end up needing well north of 400kW. Should be less than 800kW, though... I also have little idea of the practical aspects of LSR, but IIRC the "track" at Bonneville is 10 miles long and if you use 8 miles of that for accelerating (ie - a drag chute for decelerating rapidly) and you need, say, 500kW peak, then you will need a 12.5kWh battery pack capable of delivering 40C peak, and 20C continuous...


You're swinging in the ballpark of where I've been planning. The packs I have assembled (on paper) are around 14kwh, capable of at least 50-60c burst, and better than 20-30c continuous. In fact, the latest couple/few have numbers far above that, and more than double the power I can figure out how to get through a motor.

On that note: we also have the OSU CAR team's expertise, experience, and technological muscle, to help. They've formally offered their support, and we intend to take advantage of it. The numbers between what I hope to do, and what they've done also seem to mesh. I need to schedule some time to sit down and get more indepth about the numbers. I am waiting until we get a little more momentum going with the project, because I also want to discuss going with/tagging along behind them to Bonneville. I envision a little Columbus, Ohio camp - which would look awesome on film, and give us the opportunity to get the city and local businesses involved. 





Tesseract said:


> ...Do you have enough space to store enough energy for a 3 minute run?....


Yep, I've planned for extra space too, in case I need more. 





Tesseract said:


> ... Will the motor (a WarP11HV, I presume) be able to deliver the peak and average power demanded of it for two runs within 1 hour (and what kind of cooling will it take to do that? Fogging the commutator with a dry ice "flaking" nozzle?!?)? etc...


We'll see!  I'm not married to my GE, a Warp 11HV, or any other motor/combination. After discussing collaborating with CAR, I went back and revised the motor/controller aspects of the design to make it as modular as possible, so that the Inhaler can change and grow as necessary. If we got all the way in bed with them they would push us towards AC, to be more in sync with/relative to their efforts. 





Tesseract said:


> ...Not saying you can't do it - on the contrary, it actually seems well within the realm of possibility - just that you will have to optimize the drivetrain to get there.


Thanks and yep!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I also have little idea of the practical aspects of LSR, but IIRC the "track" at Bonneville is 10 miles long and if you use 8 miles of that for accelerating


Hi Tess,

I've been there 3 times. IIRC, you have 2 miles to get up to speed, then 3 timed (or clocked) miles and then about 5 miles to slow down but usually it only takes about a mile. You can use a push vehicle to get going during the first mile. The rest has to be on your own. Damn salt gets everywhere 

major

ps. And for the FIM record we had to do the return run within 2 hours.

pps. That was on a 2-wheeler and on the short course which is 2 miles run up and only one clocked mile. 175 mph was needed to run the long course, which we did on our last run of the week. Went home with a long course sticker but never used it. Maybe this year


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You're swinging in the ballpark of where I've been planning. The packs I have assembled (on paper) are around 14kwh, capable of at least 50-60c burst, and better than 20-30c continuous. In fact, the latest couple/few have numbers far above that, and more than double the power I can figure out how to get through a motor.


It sounds like you and I are guesstimating about the same numbers: see my response to maj below...



toddshotrods said:


> ...After discussing collaborating with CAR, I went back and revised the motor/controller aspects of the design to make it as modular as possible, so that the Inhaler can change and grow as necessary. If we got all the way in bed with them they would push us towards AC, to be more in sync with/relative to their efforts.


Oh, got a motor/controller system worked out already, huh? Hmmph.




major said:


> [at Bonneville] you have 2 miles to get up to speed, then 3 timed (or clocked) miles and then about 5 miles to slow down but usually it only takes about a mile. You can use a push vehicle to get going during the first mile. The rest has to be on your own. Damn salt gets everywhere


Ok, so let's say it takes 500kW for the Inhaler to go 200 mph... that would be 1.2 minutes at an average power of 250kW for acceleration (actually, I think it's a geometric mean, and not an arithmetic one, but whatever...) then 0.9 minutes at 500kW for the "constant speed" portion of the pass. You'll need 5kWh to accelerate and 7.5kWh for the 200 mph pass, or 12.5kWh...   I swear I didn't plan that!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think working up gradually in speed is important. BYU basically did the 60 mph, 140 mph, 180 mph then roll the vehicle plan. Something some teams do is monitor the suspension height (could be as simple as video that gets reviewed each run). If the vehicle is lifting it's getting light on its wheels.

I forget, I trust you have a rule book? You'll want to build to the safety rules as you go.

A fairly aero stock bodied vehicle takes around 500 to 600 hp to go 200 mph. You have a small frontal area, but obviously worse aero than a modern supercar. I'll make an educated guess the Inhaler will need around 700 to 800 hp to go 200 mph. I'll also guess it'll either need some downforce aids or added weight.

The total length of the Salt Flats course can vary year to year depending on the weather and the condition of the salt that year. The event I attend http://www.SaltFlats.com nominally has a mile of run up, miles 2, 3, 4, and 5 are timed, and 2 miles for shutdown. You can set a record in any of the miles. The short course gives you a mile to run up, a timing trap, and roughly 1/2 mile to shut down. I found in my gasser I had to be on the brakes harder than I expected to make the turn at the end of the short course. Once I had too much speed and blew through the cones, but no biggy it was the Salt Flats and there was nothing to hit.


toddshotrods said:


> That's my probably my biggest concern, wth this goal, David. I can add weight and more motors and batteries until it works, but that would defeat the real goal of seeing if the Inhaler, in its true form, is capable of the big numbers - so that will be a last resort. I will be sharing as much as possible here, so if you see something that concerns you please feel free to address it. I am also surrounded by a bunch of safety-minded engineers, with various concentrations, that are constantly dissecting my big plans. I welcome it. I may not always listen, but I always appreciate.  Especially if I am wrong and fall on my azz - the words of wisdom have a way of ringing louder and clearer in that situation!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...A fairly aero stock bodied vehicle takes around 500 to 600 hp to go 200 mph. You have a small frontal area, but obviously worse aero than a modern supercar. I'll make an educated guess the Inhaler will need around 700 to 800 hp to go 200 mph. I'll also guess it'll either need some downforce aids or added weight...


Either way, I think I am leaving enough room in the design to get there. I'm going to try to surprise you with the aero numbers. I may strike out, but then again, I may hit on something.





Tesseract said:


> ...Oh, got a motor/controller system worked out already, huh? Hmmph...


No, that's not what I meant. I was trying to say that I made it possible for the Inhaler to run a wide variety of motor and controller combinations. I haven't picked anything specific, beyond the current GE motor and Alltrax controller.

Originally, the motor was a critical element in the vehicle's design. When the hood went on, it eliminated the importance of a specific aesthetic motor design in the grand scheme of things. Now, with even the velocity stacks being removed, what's under the hood is aesthetically just a supplement to the overall design.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

New logo. We'll be doing promotional giveaways soon (keychains, mugs, shirts, etc). I'm working on the offical Team Inhaler logo next, and then we get our Team shirts.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice logo.
Reminds me why my logo, being portrate, doesn't work so well as a landscape layout.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Nice logo.
> Reminds me why my logo, being portrate, doesn't work so well as a landscape layout.


Thanks Woody.  Yep, I've done both versions over the years and landscape is definitely easier to work with. I think it's even easier to use than my round "Bat-T" logo.

Today, we trimmed the foam slices for the new track nose, glued-n-screwed them together, cut the fiberglass nose out, and grafted the new nose in! Cut, cut, shave, glue-n-screw, fill the gaps with foam, and the front clip now look like the CAD models. Everyone seems to like it much more than before, including me, so I guess we done good. 

Typical of me, I forgot to take my camera, and didn't even think to tell someone around to snap a few cell phone pics (mine sucks so I don't even try it). I'll get some the next time I'm there. I have to go back and trim the spray can foam, and throw a couple/few coats of latex paint on it anyway.

The video guy said he's almost got a promotional short ready, so I may have some video to share with you guys this month.  Hopefully we'll also get a copy of school system's video soon too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here are a few blurry cell phone pics of the new nose grafted into the front clip. I went today and trimmed the spray can foam down and put a coat of latex paint on the nose, but didn't have my camera, so I snapped some with my cell. They suck, but aren't as bad as I thought they would be.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Woody, I marked the Curly Maple burl block, according to your instructions and handed it over to Matt, one of the Team members who is really good on the ShopBot. As you suggested, he's going to crop the corners a little bit, plane one surface true, and then cut a small hole (3" diameter) in the center of the block. We'll let it rest and then I'll report back to you here before moving forward.

I had so much going on with the business end of the project and with design that I just couldnt get to it. Now that I have eleven other Team Inhaler members, things are starting to get done. I have to get going on the CAD models for the steering wheel, and wanted the ring to be cut and settled into it's final shape before I finish the model. I think I am going to go overboard again and have the main section of the steering wheel cut from a solid piece of billet. That means it will likely have to be around 6" thick, and 10-11" square or diameter. Curt, another Team member, works for Eric (the guy that cut the rear mount) so he can be there machining Inhaler parts on free machines, while he's working. I was starting to back away from some of the CNC stuff because of how many hours I would have had to spend babysitting the machines.

Finally, for today, the 12th member (as of today) is our first female! She's probably going to end up mostly in administration and PR, but she wants to learn the technical side of things as well. She's a people person, and is finally helping balance the testosterone-biased nature of the Team. She's also going to help recruit more females, from hardcore wrenchers, to classy pin-up models.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

As usual, I won't be surprised to find out you've already thought of this stuff, but I'll enjoy hearing your thoughts.

I have a buddy with a Camaro that seemed to have really communicative steering -- you can really feel what the front wheels are doing and it is easy to drive on the edge in corners. He said the main difference between his car and mine was that he had a lightweight steering wheel, and he handed me his old airbag steering wheel -- it was surprisingly heavy. I'm curious to hear how much the Inhaler's steering wheel will weigh, and your thoughts on effects on driving feel.

The 2nd thought is steering wheels can get amazing amounts of stress in a racing environment -- how do you know it is going to be strong enough? BTW the same friend put on a lightweight steering wheel. Tech said they thought it looked a bit wimpy, and sure enough it broke in the middle of an autocross run!


toddshotrods said:


> ... I have to get going on the CAD models for the steering wheel, and wanted the ring to be cut and settled into it's final shape before I finish the model. I think I am going to go overboard again and have the main section of the steering wheel cut from a solid piece of billet. That means it will likely have to be around 6" thick, and 10-11" square or diameter. ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> As usual, I won't be surprised to find out you've already thought of this stuff, but I'll enjoy hearing your thoughts...


What on Earth would give you that idea, outside of 2 years, 127 pages, 111,445 views, and 1260 replies, worth of my obsessing over every nut, bolt, and detail?! 

Just remember - you asked for this! 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I have a buddy with a Camaro that seemed to have really communicative steering -- you can really feel what the front wheels are doing and it is easy to drive on the edge in corners. He said the main difference between his car and mine was that he had a lightweight steering wheel, and he handed me his old airbag steering wheel -- it was surprisingly heavy. I'm curious to hear how much the Inhaler's steering wheel will weigh, and your thoughts on effects on driving feel...


I am in agreement with your buddy, on having a lighweight steering wheel. The weight, composition, overall diameter, grip type and diameter, are all nice final tuning points for good road feel. The design for the Inhaler's steering wheel is part necessity, and partly based on my personal preferences, developed over the decades.

Now to back up into the (lightly) technical aspects of road feel. It starts in the ocntact patch and gets "interpreted" through the front suspension design and geometry, and is another of my reasons for insisting on SLA IFS up front. I won't go into detail on that because there are too many details to consider, and a lot of it is actually driver/team preference (highly subjective). It's just what I prefer, regarding "feel". Next in the equation is the actual steering system. I am definitely, definitely, in the rack and pinion camp. The manual Fiero rack that's in the Inhaler right now is just a setup and initial tuning piece. I will settle for nothing less than a power Woodward rack, when we start approaching the real performance goals. They're completely tunable, from ratio, to assist, on/off center feel, blah, blah, blah. I want to know when I am at the point of really risking life and limb, to make a knowledgeable decision on whether to keep pushing. Ideally, we will probably have a couple or three Woodward racks setup for different venues. For autocross and tight road course I want their 2.09:1 ratio, but that may not be the best idea when hunting for 200mph on the salt...  They also understand and have provisions for electric power steering pumps, so it should be a smooth process for them to accommodate my electric racing needs.

After you get past the wheel/tire combination, design, geometry, and steering rack, the link to it is important as well. I insisted on the straight shot, single u-joint, setup on the car. The best u-joint on the market, will connect a collapsible hollow shaft, with one heavy duty, spherical bearing-equipped, chassis mount inside the cabin, and tied directly into the chassis/cage. Capping that off will be my over-the-top steering wheel. It will be a bit chunkier than you might expect, but there's method behind that madness too. One, it is the command center, and has to house a lot of electronic control hardware. Two, since I will be directly connected to a very rigid chassis, with very rigid suspension components (rod ends instead of bushings and ball joints, etc), I want a solid (but not really heavy) steering wheel to help dampen the vibrations and natural resonance a little bit. Feeling a paper thin, hollow-rimmed, steering wheel being played like a guitar to every nuance of the chassis can be a distraction to what the tires are actually communicating. Unlike a conventional vehicle, the chassis is going to communicate everything directly into your body at every contact point. I am hoping to isolate some of that from the steering wheel to -hopefully - have a clear understanding of what's happening in the contact patches through it.

I experimented with some of this over the years, mostly with shifters. Using different weight levers and knobs, and different materials, you can change what you actually feel through the shifter. My favorite is the one I did in my Honda. A super short overall shifter length, with modified mechanism. So it actually has shortened travel, and a short lever, for a distance of three inches from 1st-to-2nd, 3rd-4th. The lever and knob are a one-piece, really heavy, billet deal I turned on the lathe. It's a large aluminum ball (approx 2.5" dia) with a thin (approx .750" dia), short (approx 2" tall) "trunk". The heavy ball adds leverage to my input, and the heavy metal composition transmits exactly what's going on inside the transmission - but I don't get any buzz from the engine or chassis into my right hand. I can shift with one finger, and literally feel the gears engage, but that's all I feel. It's only drawback is it's pretty cool to the touch in Ohio winters. It hasn't ever been too hot to use comfortably though. I meant to put a heating element in it, but never got around to it. I know that's off-topic, but it's insight into how I love to spend time obsessing over little details like this. It probably took a dozen or so versions to reach this level of satisfaction on this particular shifter, and I wouldn't stop until it was _just right_. 





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...The 2nd thought is steering wheels can get amazing amounts of stress in a racing environment -- how do you know it is going to be strong enough? BTW the same friend put on a lightweight steering wheel. Tech said they thought it looked a bit wimpy, and sure enough it broke in the middle of an autocross run!...


That's the other reason I am keeping some weight in it, and also why I want to machine from a solid piece of billet. I know properly TIG'd metal is theoretically as strong as, or stronger than, a solid piece but... With a solid piece, we can actually do FEA and find out where it will break, and there aren't as many open doors for human error. The reason I refer to this as going overboard is we'll end up whittling a 75lb piece of billet down to a 5lb part!  There won't be much left, but what is left will be carefully machined 6061 alloy. Remember that team of safety-minded engineers? Alex is a materials science guy and Eric is something similar, but biased towards the machining end. We'll develop a good idea of what to do to make this thing incredibly strong.

It's basically a shell, by the way. It's hollow, and will be relatively thin-walled, to fit all the electronic hardware in the hub and spokes. That's the main section; four spokes, a hub, and a thin rim section. There will be a front cover piece that bolts to this, and forms the main "viewing" surface of the spokes and hub. The wood rim you hear me talking about will actually be trapped between these two, and is mainly for appearance and "feel". Depending on our actual needs, there may be other rims for different purposes; cast resin, CAD/CNC aluminum, etc. Simply pull the front cover off and change the rim, as needed. It's going to be quick-disconnect, as well, so there is also the option of having completely different steering wheels for different purposes.

Remember, you asked for this!  Bet you'll think twice before you say you'll enjoy hearing my thoughts again! And, I don't even think I scratched the surface of them on this issue.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Woody, I marked the Curly Maple burl block, according to your instructions and handed it over to Matt, one of the Team members who is really good on the ShopBot. As you suggested, he's going to crop the corners a little bit, plane one surface true, and then cut a small hole (3" diameter) in the center of the block. We'll let it rest and then I'll report back to you here before moving forward.


Great, I look forward to seeing if it works out. Wood often has a mind of its own and can refuse to play ball.
Hopefully the slow and steady approach will yield the results.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Great, I look forward to seeing if it works out. Wood often has a mind of its own and can refuse to play ball.
> Hopefully the slow and steady approach will yield the results.


Me: "Matt, if you hear creaking and cracking..."
Matt: "I know, stop!"
Me: "No, grab your iPhone and catch the disintegration on video!"

















The largest diameter circle is 10", the next one in is 9.5". I am hoping to get a fill 10" rim out of it, but wanted to see what 9.5" looked like, on the block, just in case.



New Team Inhaler member Beth, getting up close and personal with the Inhaler. I told the little hot rod to stop flirting with her, but...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Be it far from you to apologize, this kind of detail is great stuff! I bow in the general direction of Ohio!

I am surprised in a car so small and light you'd want power steering -- why is that? Isn't manual steering the ultimate in feel? That's something I really enjoy in my Porsche.

I like your different steering ratios for different kinds of racing idea.

Hats off to you for getting a team going and sharing the great Inhaler experience.


toddshotrods said:


> What on Earth would give you that idea, outside of 2 years, 127 pages, 111,445 views, and 1260 replies, worth of my obsessing over every nut, bolt, and detail?!
> 
> Just remember - you asked for this!
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Be it far from you to apologize, this kind of detail is great stuff! I bow in the general direction of Ohio!...
> 
> ...Hats off to you for getting a team going and sharing the great Inhaler experience.


Thanks David!  This project is way too much fun - it should be illegal. My Team is great, and I'm simultaneously humbled and ego-enhanced that they are as enthusiastic as they are about the project.





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I am surprised in a car so small and light you'd want power steering -- why is that? Isn't manual steering the ultimate in feel? That's something I really enjoy in my Porsche...


Technically yes (manual superiority). Right now, with 3-turns lock-to-lock, it feels like it has power steering even with the motor in it, and on asphalt. I would actually prefer to have manual, but I planned ahead for power in case 2-turns, really sticky tires, and the 10" steering wheel, prove to be more than can be easily cranked through tight stuff, like autocross courses. I'm also allowing for the fact that it could take more tire on the front (wider), along with being bubble gum soft.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that I want Woodward. I can tune it to have just barely enough boost, so that the assist is barely noticeable. Woodward also has little reed-like valves in the servos that you can fine tune to have more or less feel, along with the level of boost you desire. _For the unaware, the servo mounts inline with the steering shaft, and controls the release of pressurized fluid into the assist cylinder. Through this you can tune exactly how the assist responds to your inputs at the steering wheel._ I haven't confirmed with them yet, but I should also be able to put a speed-activated control circuit on the pump motor, so that it's completely disabled at speed - ala some new production cars.


Off to do more audio for the documentary today. "I'm Todd Perkins, and I design crazy $#!+ that goes insanely fast!"


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Double the power, lose a few hundred pounds, get enough rubber to apply it, and you're speaking my language!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler's feature article in Gas 2.0 is now online, please visit the site and support the publication, and the Inhaler Project. 

We had a day or so delay in machining the wood block - hopefully tomorrow. The ShopBot was otherwise preoccupied with another project today, that Matt didn't realize was quite as involved as it is.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I just read the article and came here to post the link, thought you were holding out on us  Nice writeup.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I just read the article and came here to post the link, thought you were holding out on us  Nice writeup.


Thanks J!  Nope, I worked earlier, then dropped by the shop, and the email that it had been posted came while I was driving home. I had to read it fifty times after I got home, massage my cheeks from the "smiling pain", then start getting links up everywhere I could think to post them...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a good article, Todd, glad to have read it.

Good photos above too. The wood looks interesting and I have itchy fingers wanting to get a piece of it.

I am spending some time, now, re-establishing my wood shop following my illness so that I can rehabilitate my wood skills. I am losing dexterity and short term memory and need to hone my skills and knowledge before they fade away.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a good article, Todd, glad to have read it.
> 
> Good photos above too. The wood looks interesting and I have itchy fingers wanting to get a piece of it.
> 
> I am spending some time, now, re-establishing my wood shop following my illness so that I can rehabilitate my wood skills. I am losing dexterity and short term memory and need to hone my skills and knowledge before they fade away.


Thanks Woody!  Chris did a great job of painting my vision, something that doesn't always play out as you had hoped with media. Alex and I are also learning how to communicate it properly and Chris was awesome at pulling the right story out of our rambling (it was a conference call interview).

Speaking of the wood process, I did some additional audio yesterday, and we discussed the possibility of you giving us some technical guidance via Skype in the documentary!  If memory serves me correctly, the stage is also your cup of tea, so you should feel right at home.  We can simply have him zoom in on a laptop, have a bigger monitor back by the ShopBot, or maybe make you bigger than life with the digital projector. I like that option because we can actually stage it news style, so you almost appear to be in the room. They're in the process of building a video production set in the shop, for just such a thing...

Ready? Willing?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

We'll have to talk about that in pm or Email.

I would be happy to do that but I am still a bit 'brain dazed' and I wouldn't want to come across as a befuddled and confused eccentric. It means I would probably need to be scripted, as most of my life is right now, as I can't think more then a few seconds ahead without forgetting what I was doing before.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> We'll have to talk about that in pm or Email.
> 
> I would be happy to do that but I am still a bit 'brain dazed' and I wouldn't want to come across as a befuddled and confused eccentric. It means I would probably need to be scripted, as most of my life is right now, as I can't think more then a few seconds ahead without forgetting what I was doing before.


Yup, we'll contunue the discussion privately. Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I've just been excited about the possibility, and it just kind of spilled out when you said:



Woodsmith said:


> The wood looks interesting and I have itchy fingers wanting to get a piece of it.




Everything will be edited, and scripting is no problem. I shot from the hip in my first audio session, then went back and _read_ some parts of it over yesterday. Same basic wording (my words, my thoughts), just presented a little more clearly...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We did a little tweaking in the article's text yesterday and today. One thing that was emphasized is it now clearly states that I am an EV enthusiast, just not a tree-hugger.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nothing wrong with hugging a tree now and then


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Nothing wrong with hugging a tree now and then


I'll stick to either standing back admiring its beauty, or cutting it down and making something from it.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I'll stick to either standing back admiring its beauty, or cutting it down and making something from it.


That's pretty much my take on trees.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

One of the Team Inhaler members donated a fiberglass race kart seat, that he had originally purchased for his (400hp) turbo Civic. I finished some other stuff I had to do today, and needed a short distraction, so I started thinking about what, if anything, I could do with it. Squeezing two bucket seats in the Inhaler would be next to imposible, once the tunnel goes in, so I have been planning on something custom and kind of molded to fit. I decided to try a combination of the kart seat, my molded-in ideas, and a traditional pickup truck bench seat... 








With some real-life fitting and alterations, it has promise, yes? I would basically cut the seat in half, and create a CAD/CNC foam buck of the center section, then 'glass it back together. I haven't decided what I want the area over the tunnel to look like yet, so it's unfinished here; and there would likely be some detail in the seat back.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a nice solution. The kart seat gives the right profile and fit and the custom tunnel can be as small as you need.
So long as you don't need to move the seat position to suit drivers.

I am planning on a fixed bench seat and having the pedals adn steering wheel move for distance. I am also working on the steering (with all the instruments on the column) moving sideways so I can sit right side with a passenger or centre when I am on my own.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a nice solution. The kart seat gives the right profile and fit and the custom tunnel can be as small as you need.
> So long as you don't need to move the seat position to suit drivers.
> 
> I am planning on a fixed bench seat and having the pedals adn steering wheel move for distance. I am also working on the steering (with all the instruments on the column) moving sideways so I can sit right side with a passenger or centre when I am on my own.


Thanks Woody. I have long legs and arms for my size, so I typically drive in a position people much taller would use. That means that people around Alex's size (6ft-ish/200lb-ish) should be able to squeeze in, with reasonable "comfort" (for a race car). I'll be comfy enough to take naps!  I haven't decided how I will accomodate anyone smaller than I am, and/or with short arms and legs. I'll probably just have multiple holes in the mounts, to allow the seat to be moved forward and up. It won't be a simple pull the lever and slide deal though, because the seat has to be bolted for racing.

The tunnel size is fixed. I plan on running a 4" diameter, two-piece, aluminum driveshaft (prop shaft to you ) so the overall width is going to be about 8", allowing for safety loops and covering. That will be bagged and baked carbon-kevlar for maximum protection.

I can't wait to see your seat, and swinging column! That's a really neat idea! Until I realized the tunnel was going to be so massive in the Inhaler, I was planning on having bolt, or pin, in bolsters to keep driver and passenger in place. Not much chance of moving when wedged in between the body and a huge center tunnel though. Maybe you can use my idea, to keep your rump in the middle when cornering.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

heatherp123 said:


> Great project. Is this working now?


Thank heatherp.  Not yet. The goal is to have it running on a lower power system (with a fair amount of current capability though) before the end of this year to do some chassis and battery testing; then start on the racing program next year.

From the firewall forward is just a foam buck (core). I'm hoping to have the fiberglass lay-up done in the next month or so, then the motor can go in (no room for it under the foam) and we can start wiring it up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We did a video shoot of about 30 minutes with a few of us working on the Inhaler yesterday, that will be compressed into a *4 second* time-lapse segment in the video promotional spot!  This is so much fun!  That promotional spot is almost finished, and I'll be able to share it soon.

This week: Team member Vinny and I are going to start building the interior buck (floors, center tunnel, etc), and Matt and I are scheduled to start the process on the steering wheel rim tomorrow at 2pm, so I should have some pics and details for you tomorrow Woody.

I'm developing the model for the steering wheel and have been trying to locate the components for it. I finally found exactly what I want for a trackball, and got a price quote of $369. It's a waterproof, industrial, "3-axis", trackball. It has a round housing, and the outer ring is the "Z-axis", which is basically a scroll wheel. So in the middle of the steering wheel what will appear to be a hemispherical horn button, will actually allow full control of an onboard PC!  It's pricey though, so I just wanted to get some feedback before officially adding it to the budget. That price may seem high, but keep in mind it's a waterproof, industrial, device - being installed in a hardcore race car. Also relevant is the fact that this steering wheel, counting design time, materials, parts, and actual build labor, would actually cost as much as a new sub/compact car!

If anyone here has time to take a peek at the link, and tell me what you think, I'd appreciate it.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> If anyone here has time to take a peek at the link, and tell me what you think, I'd appreciate it.


It looks to be a very nice unit, Todd. We use similar trackballs in the industry I am in, and they are quite robust, we have replaced more keyboards than trackball. I like the mounting from behind, that will make for a clean install. Just beware of those connectors- they may create problems if they are not tight.

BTW, have you thought of using Bluetooth to pass the signals along? That would mean only 2 wires connected to the steering wheel for the supply. It will go with your minimalist look on the rest of the Inhaler.

Good luck to you and your team, I an sure everyone following the Inhaler can't wait to see the final car.

Dawid


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> It looks to be a very nice unit, Todd. We use similar trackballs in the industry I am in, and they are quite robust, we have replaced more keyboards than trackball. I like the mounting from behind, that will make for a clean install. Just beware of those connectors- they may create problems if they are not tight.
> 
> BTW, have you thought of using Bluetooth to pass the signals along? That would mean only 2 wires connected to the steering wheel for the supply. It will go with your minimalist look on the rest of the Inhaler.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dawid! I have considered using some type of wireless transmission, not specifically Bluetooth though. I guess I should look into it. That would make a really clean setup. How stable/dependable is Bluetooth in a harsh enviroment application like this? Any chance of interference from other electronics, onboard or otherwise? I was mainly planning for a hard-wired system due to my own ignorance, regarding wireless in extreme environments.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

I know there are some industrial bluetooth systems that is considered quite secure and robust, as they were made with mobile cranes and such in mind. I have looked into this a while ago, but have not yet used any of these systems myself. As the transcievers are permanently paired to one another and will not speak to other bluetooth systems, it is reasonably secure. I will have a look tomorrow to see what is available (that is my tomorrow, your tonight).

Regards
Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks a nice track ball to me.

How would you use it? The orientation would change as the wheel is turned, unless it stays still in the centre and the wheels turns about it.

Look forward to seeing the wood machining.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I know nothing about laser track balls, but that looks way cool


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> I know there are some industrial bluetooth systems that is considered quite secure and robust, as they were made with mobile cranes and such in mind. I have looked into this a while ago, but have not yet used any of these systems myself. As the transcievers are permanently paired to one another and will not speak to other bluetooth systems, it is reasonably secure. I will have a look tomorrow to see what is available (that is my tomorrow, your tonight).
> 
> Regards
> Dawid


Sounds awesome Dawid! I look forward to any info you can find on them. That sounds perfect, and if it's safe enough for a crane it should be fine for my application.





Woodsmith said:


> Looks a nice track ball to me.
> 
> How would you use it? The orientation would change as the wheel is turned, unless it stays still in the centre and the wheels turns about it.
> 
> Look forward to seeing the wood machining.


Tomorrow is the day Woody, I can't wait to finally cut that block! 

The track ball would only be used when the vehicle is sitting still. It's mainly for programming, checking data logging, etc.






JRP3 said:


> I know nothing about laser track balls, but that looks way cool


Thanks J!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yesterday during the video shoot, Alex cut a piece of OSB to fit the frame rails, forming the floor pan. Today, Vinny and I made the driveshaft tunnel from one of the cardboard tubes used to pour concrete post foundations, split in half, and a couple pieces of OSB for the sides. A flange was cut in each side panel to allow the cardboard to fit flush (actually recessed a bit to allow some shaping with filler to soften the transistion). To this I will add CAD/CNC sculptured foam details.

I cut the kart seat in half, and immediately recognized the opportunity to do something really special! Instead of a straight back, I am going to curve the seat to follow the contour of the T-bucket body. The eye will see a really elegant curved piece of Victorian style furniture, the azz will feel a tight-fitting racing seat.  I can't wait to show you guys what's in my head! 

I've been itching to do the interior since the beginning of the project. I knew what I wanted to do, but couldn't figure out how to pull if off. A simple donated part from one of my Team members (Curt - the CNC machinist) provided the spark I needed.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Have a look at this module at http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8952, it can run your trackball via its usb interface, and more - like a handsfree kit etc..

It is a developement product, but it is very configurable in what it can do.
Dawid

BTW, I hope you have someone who can program in the team


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DawidvC said:


> Have a look at this module at http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8952, it can run your trackball via its usb interface, and more - like a handsfree kit etc..
> 
> It is a developement product, but it is very configurable in what it can do.
> Dawid
> ...


If not on the Team, I have access to programmers so that shouldn't be a problem. I have at least 12 - 16 switches going in the steering wheel, plus the trackball. I was planning on it being hard-wired with a 37-pin plug in a custom quick disconnect mount. Signals were going to be transmitted from the steering shaft to the main harness via a "printed" drum on one side, with contact fingers on the other. This would all be in a custom enclosure, of course, under the dash.

Do you think the Bluetooth system would be as capable? Better? I'll have to sit down with some of the electronics and programming people to see what they think about tackling this.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I have at least 12 - 16 switches going in the steering wheel, plus the trackball. I was planning on it being hard-wired with a 37-pin plug in a custom quick disconnect mount.


You mean like this?









The printed drum thing is commonly replaced by a "clockspring" in an OEM wheel, which actually has a bundle of thin wires that can wrap twice in each direction, allowing them to eliminate the drum/wheel/contacts scheme you're thinking about. It has to be dead-reliable for an oem, so they use the clockspring which is positively wired. I wouldn't try to make a drum/contact deal, let alone one with so many circuits. You might find an OEM clockspring with more than a few circuits- look for a GM (or any other) unit from a car with the radio controls in the wheel, like i the early '90s. Horn + airbag + cruise + radio, provided there isn't a lot of muxing going on, is going to be at least a half-dozen circuits.

If not that, go Bluetooth.

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

First, I've created a lot of confusion about what this wood is going to be/do on the steering wheel. It's just the rim. There is a LOT of missing detail in this CAD rendering, but it should help people understand better what I am doing. Woody obviously gets it because he had concerns about how much wood I will be removing from the block, and how fast I removed it. All that will be left is a relatively thin ring. There will be a lot more scupltured detailing where the spokes land on the rim. The rim itself will not be bolted or rigidly fastened, it will be held (tightly) captively between the front and rear sections of the spokes, allowing it some freedom to settle into its desired shape over time. That design feature is from what I have learned about wood from our own Woodsmith. On with the show:

The basic idea of the rim:









Today's process, as suggested by Woody, was to plane one surface true, cut a small hole in the center, and lop the corners off. Actually Woody said plane, lop, then cut, but I gave Matt a little leeway in how he wanted to lock the piece down - keeping the corners until it was off the machine. The point is to see how the wood moves and changes as it re-acclimates itself to the atmosphere - due to new "skin" being revealed. To begin working the kinks out of the process, and because I love CNC, we used the ShopBot to plane the surface, and cut the hole. The corners were cut on a radial arm saw.



















Woody, I inspected the wood carefully before we started, and found only these two cracks, which appear to be pretty shallow. I really forgot to look for them afterwards, but they also didn't catch my attention while measuring the center hole.









I left the wood in the shop to try as much as possible to keep its environment consistent. It's on my shelf on a piece of OSB, near the ShopBot, and woodworking area.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

LOL! Close Tom, but...

Need More Cowbell


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks ok so far, Todd. I wouldn't worry about the small splits, there will probably be more of them in due course and in the finished item they will be filled with wax or whatever finish you will use. Some will appear due to movement and others may be existing but hidden inside the block.

The CNC could be a little aggressive as you get closer to the finshed shape so need to be careful there to prevent tearing the wood fibres. High speed cutter and very fine passes at a feed rate fast enough to prevent friction burns should do it. It will be trial and error to work out the feed rate and cutter speed while you have an excess of wood to work with.

Save the off cuts as they will provide matching timber for repairs if needed and also for other items afterwards, switch toggles, bezels, jewellery.

You may need to design in a method to secure the wood in the machine now that the corners have been removed. If a face is flat and smooth enough then it can be stuck down with double sided tape. Otherwise blocks can be glued on for the purposes of securing it to the table and then removed afterwards. I usually use animal or hide glue for this as it is quick and forgiving and doesn't leave the problematic residues that PVA type glues leave. The downside is that it cures brittle like glass and blunts cutters. However, double sided tape can be used if secure enough.

Another method would be to use a set of sacrificial soft wood jigs that supports the burr while the cutter is in action.
Sometimes blocks are left unmachined from the original but with a burr it can be difficult finding a suitable place to leave a block that will be both strong enough to withstad the machining loads and that would not damage the rest of the work if it breaks off.

Your artist impression is just how I described the wheel to my honey last weekend.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks ok so far, Todd. I wouldn't worry about the small splits, there will probably be more of them in due course and in the finished item they will be filled with wax or whatever finish you will use. Some will appear due to movement and others may be existing but hidden inside the block...


Awesome! I don't really mind if there are defects in the final product, as long as it is relatively strong and stable. I want the Inhaler to look like an antique race car - race cars are supposed to look like they've been used.  That was a purposed design decision to give me a show car with a theme that allows me to actually enjoy it, from racing to letting kids crawl in it, and touch it...





Woodsmith said:


> ...The CNC could be a little aggressive as you get closer to the finshed shape so need to be careful there to prevent tearing the wood fibres. High speed cutter and very fine passes at a feed rate fast enough to prevent friction burns should do it. It will be trial and error to work out the feed rate and cutter speed while you have an excess of wood to work with...


Yep, we were kind of ripping though it here just because it's so far away from the actual part. The closer we get, the more gentle the machine will be. It's all in programming. Feed rate, stepover (how much it moves into the un-cut section on each pass), spindle speed, and the actual depth of the cut, can all be fine tuned until the human eye can barely see what's happening. I can make the machine have a gentle touch like a good woodworker. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Save the off cuts as they will provide matching timber for repairs if needed and also for other items afterwards, switch toggles, bezels, jewellery....


Hmmm, I may have to go dumpster diving!  I still have one of the corners anyway! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...You may need to design in a method to secure the wood in the machine now that the corners have been removed. If a face is flat and smooth enough then it can be stuck down with double sided tape. Otherwise blocks can be glued on for the purposes of securing it to the table and then removed afterwards. I usually use animal or hide glue for this as it is quick and forgiving and doesn't leave the problematic residues that PVA type glues leave. The downside is that it cures brittle like glass and blunts cutters. However, double sided tape can be used if secure enough.
> 
> Another method would be to use a set of sacrificial soft wood jigs that supports the burr while the cutter is in action.
> Sometimes blocks are left unmachined from the original but with a burr it can be difficult finding a suitable place to leave a block that will be both strong enough to withstad the machining loads and that would not damage the rest of the work if it breaks off...


I have ideas for this, especially after we get past this initial phase and into my CAD design. I can leave "lugs" for fixturing in the area of each spoke, which can be hand trimmed and finished off the machine. It would also give me consistent points to zero the machine to each time it's fixtured. I will share this with you beforehand to make sure it's okay, and whether you think they would be strong enough. I devised some of my own methods for ensuring accuracy while working on the rear mount. More to come...





Woodsmith said:


> ...Your artist impression is just how I described the wheel to my honey last weekend.


 Great minds and all...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> ...The printed drum thing is commonly replaced by a "clockspring" in an OEM wheel...
> 
> ...If not that, go Bluetooth.
> 
> TomA


Thanks Tom.  I will look into clocksprings, but I am leaning towards Bluetooth right now. I didn't realize they were as small as they are, which allows me to put one or a few in the steering wheel hub. That would eliminate half of the complexity of my design. I could use an off-the-shelf quick disconnect and have less stuff to make and adapt. It also complements my integrated technology theme very well. Just the marketing pitch of explaining that the command center communicates with the vehicle through Bluetooth has a nice ring! 

I also realized that anything that it controls is not a matter of "live or die" safety. We can program enough safety in the software to give the driver time to shut it down, in the event the Bluetooth fails. The main power switch, emergency disconnect, forward/reverse switch, etc, will all be located away from the wheel and hard-wired.

Beam me up Scotty!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The shop had an event yesterday called the Columbus Maker Fest, featuring the Ohio (power) Tool Race Championship, an open house, interactive demonstrations (welding, casting, CNC machining, laser cutting, etc), live music, prizes, etc. The tool races are dragsters people make from power tools and race them down a 75' wooden track. Unfortunately, I had to work and missed the best parts of the show, but snuck in beforehand and then back for the last hour or so. Alex had the Inhaler on display, with the motor beside it, and the promotional spot looping on the monitor. I didn't mean to catch myself in the pic, but happens to be the best one I took, so I will continue to inflate my ego here. 









Woody, here are the results of the wood process after four days. It's still perfectly level (the planed surface). We only skimmed off enough to level the surface this time. There was approximately .0625" of variance, before planing on 08.16.2011. There is very little change in the center hole dimensions - a matter of thousandths of an inch. I'm wondering if the biggest one (upper left corner - 3.501" to 3.510") is a case of me reading the caliper wrong the first time, considering that all the others were far less than that. I may have reversed the 1 and 0 in my head before writing them on the block. I also measured the back side of the hole, and it changed a couple thousandths on average, like the front - no big variation on the back to correspond with the biggest one on the front.









What and when do we do next sir?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you only planed one side so far?
If so turn over and skim the other side parallel to this one losing maybe 1/4" thickness and then open out the hole. 
Given the size you may be able to take 1/2" off the diameter with no worries.

You can't take much off the outside or it will get too small so leave that for now.

Leave it to sit for a good week or more then and well see. Keep it ventillated so not tucked in a still corner.
It will need to stay in the enviromental conditions as close as to use so whatever your car will be in most of the time.

Oh, also leave it to sit on sticks so there is airflow around it. Maybe make up a couple of triangular section knife edge sticks to lay it onto so there is minimal contact with any surface. Use wood for the sticks not metal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Have you only planed one side so far?
> If so turn over and skim the other side parallel to this one losing maybe 1/4" thickness and then open out the hole.
> Given the size you may be able to take 1/2" off the diameter with no worries...


Yup, one side so far. Thanks, side two and a bigger hole coming up. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...You can't take much off the outside or it will get too small so leave that for now..l.


Right. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...Leave it to sit for a good week or more then and well see. Keep it ventillated so not tucked in a still corner.
> 
> It will need to stay in the enviromental conditions as close as to use so whatever your car will be in most of the time.
> 
> Oh, also leave it to sit on sticks so there is airflow around it. Maybe make up a couple of triangular section knife edge sticks to lay it onto so there is minimal contact with any surface. Use wood for the sticks not metal.


Got it. I kind of assumed that, that's why I kept it in the Inhaler's space at the shop. Will do on the stands. 

Thanks Woody. There will be a slight delay while Matt and I look for common availability in our schedules for the next step. That's why I posted after four days to try and give time for us to schedule another session within a week or so from the first one, since it isn't doing anything crazy. 

I need to start transitioning into CAD soon too, before we mill off the material I need for fixturing. I also need your thoughts on what I am planning for that. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll get that roughed in (CAD model).


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

No problem with the delay in working, long rests are not a bad thing. Just recheck for movement before hand though.

Wood is funny sometimes, sometimes it won't react to anything at all, other times it is all over the place.
The biggest reason is changes in temperature and humiditiy but in pieces like this there can be wierd internal stresses too.
You can also sometimes find bits of trapped bark and other matter as you machine into the block.


Nice photo of the Inhaler too, the motor, being on the trolley, looks almost too big to fit in it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> No problem with the delay in working, long rests are not a bad thing. Just recheck for movement before hand though.
> 
> Wood is funny sometimes, sometimes it won't react to anything at all, other times it is all over the place.
> The biggest reason is changes in temperature and humiditiy but in pieces like this there can be wierd internal stresses too.
> ...


Thanks Woody, I'm am hopeful that this thing is going to work out, especially with your guidance. I would have clamped it to the table and whittled it down to nothing in one fell swoop of CAD/CNC madness! 

That's a nice compliment you just paid me on my design. The thing that led me to electric (beside JRP3's incessant harping of its benefits) is I needed something smaller and neater than any ICE powertrain I could find to make my design work. When I converted it, the little electric motor challenged me to make the car as neat and compact as the powertrain - even beyond my original, impossibly smashed, design. For the motor to look almost like it's too big is classic hot rod, and for all that to happen in a package a six-footer can actually fit, means I done good! 


Moving forward, I will be trying to mobilize my Team more and more, turning as much of the build over to them as possible (and trying to pick up more wrenchhead Team members to help in this respect). That will leave me free to really nail the design aspects. To that end, I have NHRA Rulebook in hand, and USFRA Rule Book on the way (thanks for the link David). I will be working out some of the most critical aspects of the chassis in CAD, and doing FEA on a lot of stuff. I hope to have Curt take the body and bed to work with him, at Eric's shop, one day soon and digitize it with the Faro arm, so I can build a complete model of the Inhaler for Team member Jake to begin CFD testing and analysis soon. When he runs out of computing power, brain waves, and time, he is an engineering student at OSU so we're hoping to be able to pester them for a little additional help in fine-tuning the aero. I cannot wait to show you guys the LSR bodywork!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woody, I am going to need your input before I can go any further with modeling the rim. I hope this illustration makes sense. This is where I was planning to go with the wood block, after we get the center hole opened up more, and the thickness planed down close to this (approximately 1.375" thick in this rough-in shape - still roughly .250" thicker than the finished product). The center hole would only be able to be opened up a couple more inches, to 5" i.d. From there, we would be into CNC machining to leave material for the spoke "sockets" and mounting bosses.








The inner inch or so of those mounting bosses would remain exactly as they are for fixturing the piece to the table. The four holes are the actual mounting points, for screws, and also the points from which the mill would be zeroed to the model. The holes would be drilled by the machine, with countersinks or counterbores for the screws. At each phase we can plane the surfaces of the bosses true, and true the bore of the hole (if the wood twists at all). It should give a pretty precise, and user-friendly, fixture/zero process.

The outer surfaces of the bosses would eventually be machined into the final contours of the rim. The back side would be pretty much completely removed with just a bit of surface on the sides of the spokes. The front side would be contoured to create the "sockets". I have attached the rendering from the last page, and the pic of my clay "rough sketch", for reference. There will be a bit more detail than I did in clay, but that is the basic idea.

















Am I asking too much of this piece of wood?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Very hard to say if it will be 'too much' for the piece of wood.

The fixing holes and surfaces will move and the accuracy will be lost. The whole block, as you rest it, will change a little and so you will need a method of finding the 'best average fit' that your finished wheel will have to the block.

I think that with the slow process it should be ok though. It is as much a case of going with what the wood gives you and not trying to pull the wood back to shape, I think you know that bit though.

With the mounting bosses, try to start with large radii changes where it meets the rim, tightening that up with each machining stage. Maybe with 2" radii first time, 1 3/4" the second time, 1 5/8" third time and so on until you are near finished with something approaching 1/2" radii before hand working to the finished size. The changes, like the overall material removal would, should be in diminishing quantities and some of the later passes may remove only high spots each time.

This is why many wood steering wheels are made from ply with a thick veneer finish, or made in quadrants between the spokes! Saves time and reduces material wastage.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Very hard to say if it will be 'too much' for the piece of wood...
> 
> ...This is why many wood steering wheels are made from ply with a thick veneer finish, or made in quadrants between the spokes! Saves time and reduces material wastage.


Well, we shall see!  I get the multiple plies and veneer, and individual quadrant, things - that's much too easy though!  This whole project is about pushing the limits of design, and of the people involved.





Woodsmith said:


> ...The fixing holes and surfaces will move and the accuracy will be lost. The whole block, as you rest it, will change a little and so you will need a method of finding the 'best average fit' that your finished wheel will have to the block...


That won't be a problem. The actual origin, or zero point, is the hole at the 12 o'clock point. The others are for orienting the piece along the X & Y axes, and for clamping it to the table. If it moves enough to change the hole locations in the block, relative to the model, I can epoxy the holes and redrill, as needed.





Woodsmith said:


> ...It is as much a case of going with what the wood gives you and not trying to pull the wood back to shape, I think you know that bit though...


Yup. I can adjust my model to accommodate what exists in the block too. It really doesn't even have to be round if necessary. The main reason I haven't finished the model is I am waiting to see what I have for material to machine it from first. I will be modeling sections as we go, and finally combining them into one complete model when we get down to the exact rough shape.





Woodsmith said:


> ...With the mounting bosses, try to start with large radii changes where it meets the rim, tightening that up with each machining stage. Maybe with 2" radii first time, 1 3/4" the second time, 1 5/8" third time and so on until you are near finished with something approaching 1/2" radii before hand working to the finished size. The changes, like the overall material removal would, should be in diminishing quantities and some of the later passes may remove only high spots each time...


Thanks, I can do that. That's what I needed to know to model the first rough-in.

Couple questions: When we get to the 5" i.d. inner hole, and relatively close in thickness, and get ready to start with the actual CAD/CNC process, how should I go about machining the spaces between the bosses? I can actually create a series of models if necessary, taking out a certain amount each time, until it pretty much resembles the rendering above. I was also planning to machine everything almost to spec, except for the spoke sockets, and machine them in a separate operation because the mounting bosses will be weaker when they ae machined. After they're cut, maybe one final pass over the whole front side to finish it? The mounting bosses will be cut off by hand, and hand finished.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Once the hole is at 5" start by taking out scoops from between the lugs. Do this in isolation to the other work for a while until you have defined lugs to support the work while the roundness of the outside is worked.

You might find the outside bulges a little where the scoops are so maybe do a very light skim of the outside first to get a circular datum, doesn't have to be continuous or clean, just something that can be set on a template (or calipers), as maximum diameter, to check roundness. Then start the scoops and see if it goes out of round. Going out of round will indicate needing to reduce the amount of cut and and resting longer.

Once a good round shape with the lugs has been produced and is stable you can then CNC the rim profiles to get a circular section from the square section that you will have.
You will need to decide which face, front or back, will get the most machining and decide on one, probably the back, as the datum face that gives you the flat spots for mounting on the CNC table.

You should then be able to start progressing down towards the profile you want on the wheel rim.
From the square section it should slowly develop into an oversized and unrefined version of the desired profile and then gradually get reduce and further defined until you reach the finish.

This wasn't well written but you should get the gist of it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

As Major said in another thread, rat rods were everywhere on the Salt Flats! It appears most of them were being used as "pit bikes" to get around on the Salt, or to run to the hotel at night. I think only the silver metal one was competing (most probably wouldn't have passed tech anyways!). I thought it was awesome to see rust and salt all over them! Todd I can't wait to see your machine on the Salt, I bet you get quite a crowd around the Inhaler every time it stops or runs! Here are a few pics of hot rods I took:


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Here are a few more pics, plus you can see some electrics on the Salt Flats on my web site ( http://ExplodingDinosaurs.com ). I love all the salt on the exhaust in the one pic, and how the "66" number is behind the grill on the last red one. Again, I can't wait to see the Inhaler as part of the rolling car show!

It'll also be fun to have the Inhaler as competition on the Salt Flats.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I still cringe when I see all that salt on those cars


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...This wasn't well written but you should get the gist of it.


It all made perfect sense to me, I get it. Thanks Woody!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Todd I can't wait to see your machine on the Salt, I bet you get quite a crowd around the Inhaler every time it stops or runs!...





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I can't wait to see the Inhaler as part of the rolling car show!
> 
> It'll also be fun to have the Inhaler as competition on the Salt Flats.


Thanks David, awesome pics! I'm going to try my best to get there. I'm aiming more towards making some passes across the salt, than the car show thing. Even if it's just to see how it feels out there, for further chassis and powertrain development, some type of competition is necessary to make it worth the trip.





JRP3 said:


> I still cringe when I see all that salt on those cars


It's hard to swallow coming from salt-crusted winter roads, huh? My hope is that with the Inhaler's completely modular design we'll be able to get most of it off. It'll literally be taken down to the last nut and bolt, cleaned thoroughly, and reassembled. That's really supposed to happen with race cars, periodically, anyway to see what's happening under the skin.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> As Major said in another thread, rat rods were everywhere on the Salt Flats! It appears most of them were being used as "pit bikes" to get around on the Salt, or to run to the hotel at night. I think only the silver metal one was competing (most probably wouldn't have passed tech anyways!). I thought it was awesome to see rust and salt all over them! Todd I can't wait to see your machine on the Salt, I bet you get quite a crowd around the Inhaler every time it stops or runs! Here are a few pics of hot rods I took:


I love the look of the silver car and the one with twin stacks and twin rear wheels (Dualies?).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This one is my favorite - especially the grille!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...the one with twin stacks and twin rear wheels (Dualies?).











Yup, we call that a Dually over here.  Look like "you" Woody!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, I just put out a Team Inhaler Memo (email) to see who's really interested, and Alex is 100% committed to taking the Inhaler to Bonneville next year (as in even willing to spend some of his own money to make sure it happens).  That's really all I need to make a serious effort.

David, Major, any other veterans of the salt, I need some info:


What event is the best for doing some shakedown passes, etc?
Is there a set date/week for that event next year (USFRA site is not very intuitive)?
Best hotel(s) to book reservations?
Any other pertinent information regarding logistics?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I think World of Speed ( http://www.SaltFlats.com ) is a great place for shakedown runs. It's a smaller event, they allow unusual vehicles, and they have the 130 and 150 clubs. Everything else requires a ton of safety gear and ~$500 entry fee. The 130 club is basically street legal + helmet + fire extinguisher (plus roll bar for convertibles) and costs only about $150. Don't worry, WoS also does the same classes and you can set records like Speed Week.

Once you are "really racing" Speed Week is a bigger event and would get you more exposure. There is also World Finals, it is a smaller event and I'm not sure how it differs from Speed Week otherwise.

In the past, for World of Speed in September we found Motel 6 to be cheapest. I've heard Speed Week is really busy and you need to book rooms far in advance. If you have a camper, you can do no facilities camping for free on the edge of the Salt Flats, at the "bend in the road."

Once things calm down after this year's event, USFRA will post next year's dates, it'll probably be mid September again.

Logistics kinds of things:


Put sunscreen on the underside of your chin, nose, etc. as the Salt reflects the sun
There is food on the Salt, but it'll be cheaper if you bring your own
You must be off the Salt by roughly 6 p.m., but you can leave your car parked at the track overnight (Although I wouldn't leave a vehicle as fine as the Inhaler out alone all night!).
Real racing classes require vehicles be towed after a run -- 130 and 150 club can drive back under their own power
Many swear by putting cooking spray on the underside of your vehicle to discourage the Salt from sticking (be careful to not get it on the finish, it is hard to remove after a while)
You need to soak off the Salt with a lawn sprinkler -- a pass through a car wash won't do it.
Wendover is not much of a town, and Salt Lake is 2 hours away, so you'll want to have a well tested, ready-to-run vehicle and tools with you.
Smooth soled shoes don't pick up as much Salt
Garbage bags on the floor of your car helps to catch Salt



toddshotrods said:


> Okay, I just put out a Team Inhaler Memo (email) to see who's really interested, and Alex is 100% committed to taking the Inhaler to Bonneville next year (as in even willing to spend some of his own money to make sure it happens).  That's really all I need to make a serious effort.
> 
> David, Major, any other veterans of the salt, I need some info:
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I think World of Speed ( http://www.SaltFlats.com ) is a great place for shakedown runs...


David, thanks so much for the feedback. I relayed the infomation. We have a Team meeting set for this Saturday to start hashing out the details, and I have formally requested our videographer's presence next year - in full company, professional, form. This will make great footage for the documentary, if we can pull it off.

As of this writing, it sounds like we'll be shooting for the 130 Club at next year's World of Speed, and then planning to hit Speed Week in 2013, if everything works out right. 130 sounds like a perfect challenge for shakedown mode, and to get everyone's adrenaline flowing for a 200mph assault.

I think I'm starting to have fun now.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Best hotel(s) to book reservations?


We stay at the Wendover Nugget. Parking lot was real interesting during Speed Week  A lot less crowded during other events.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> We stay at the Wendover Nugget...


That looks nice. The reservation link wasn't working, maybe I'll call them tomorrow...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

One more detail... Land Speed is one of the few motorsports where a push truck is often used to start a run (you can't do that for the 130 club, but you can for real racing). Even if you don't push start, instead of towing the Inhaler back you might want to push it. If you tow it flips more salt onto the car from the truck.

Another caution is a truck will flip up a bunch of salt onto an open trailer and the vehicle on it, so a closed trailer is nice.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> One more detail... Land Speed is one of the few motorsports where a push truck is often used to start a run (you can't do that for the 130 club, but you can for real racing). Even if you don't push start, instead of towing the Inhaler back you might want to push it. If you tow it flips more salt onto the car from the truck.
> 
> Another caution is a truck will flip up a bunch of salt onto an open trailer and the vehicle on it, so a closed trailer is nice.


The tow back is something I wouldn't have thought of, until the Inhaler was packed full of salt.  I'm so used to the idea of towing drag racers back to the pits, it would have just been natural to hook a truck up to the front of it and start pulling.

Has anyone ever used the big semi flap on the tow vehicles to stop the tire spray?

Thanks David.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We had a really good week last week. It ended with a Team Inhaler meeting yesterday evening. We're up to 15 members now, and three of them joined yesterday! One, a computer programmer, joined yesterday afternoon after hanging out by the little hot rod with me for a while, then changed his dinner plans at the last minute to attend the meeting (must have an understanding gf). The other two are software engineers. I didn't even know they were attending the meeting (Alex arranged it) and joined the Team there. We have some really nice plans, regarding technology now. All of my crazy ideas, and more, are just a matter of time... 

Our video guy was also there, capturing our Team spirit for the documentary. There were nine of us in attendance, and this was the first official Team meeting. Two had previous plans, the other four I have no idea? Loads of fun having as many as we did together! Alex sponsored this meeting and brought Five Guys Burgers and Fries, beer, and water for everyone! We're talking the big bacon double cheeseburgers here! 

The plans are set, and the wheels are in motion. If we fail, it will not be because we didn't try our best. The goal is to have the Inhaler running and drive-able before the snow flies (yuck!); and to be at Bonneville next September for World of Speed - 103 or 150 Club. Wish us luck...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Around and around we go! Recent, yet to be revealed, developments have led me back to the 108" wheelbase plan. This time, it's not a consideration, not an idea, not a thought, it's an all-but-done deal. Sometime later this month, or early next month, the chassis will be cut and stretched. The point is to prepare the way for more power, lots of power. Still single-motored, so far, but I have the real estate to add more motor, more battery - whatever is needed in pursuit of maximum performance. Here's a really rough draft, I did just to think through how I wanted to cover the stretched chassis. It's an artistic take on the toolboxes commonly seen in the bed, and behind the cab, of modern pickups. It'll house the controller, and battery packs (under the controller). I'm still concerned with the long run from controller to motor, but I can't get around it without killing my design. I have thoughts to address it though.








There will be a lid on top, that I want to have a featherweight replica of an antique tool kit in the bottom of. So, when the lid is up, you're drawn to it by the cool old tools in formed receptacles, and then notice the high-tech electronics inside the box. 

The image of the Inhaler is kind of purposely vague and a bit blurry because it keeps me from focusing on the details, so I could get a feel for the overall shape - which I love.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This whole Big Sol suddenly becoming a reality thing totally caught me snoozing! I have been working overtime on my design to accommodate it. At issue, from my perspective, is the fact that the controller doesn't make sense with a single motor - which was the plan for the Inhaler, since the first post. There's just no way any single commercially available motor is going to make feasible use of Big Sol; _i.e._ output in excess of 1000hp. With dual motors, and especially considering the upcoming dual-comm Warp motors, it's a no-brainer that doesn't require re-inventing the wheel - just a lot of my plans. 

Actually, I've been here before. The stretch to 108" is nothing new, and all I really did was revisit some of the ideas from last year, and bring them forward into the current reality. The challenge is I decided to locate the motors almost dead-center, and extend some of the power to the front wheels. That allows the Inhaler to keep it's all-around focus, and not become a dedicated drag car to have a shot at applying the massive torque. It also increases the weight to somewhere between 1500 and 2000lbs, hopefully comfortably south of the ton figure.

Finally, you'll notice a small motor up front. That's for electronic (click a switch) reversing without cluttering up/compromising the main drive system with reversing contactors, and a little front wheel regen. The issue is going to be compatibility. The most logical, currently available, choice is an AC20, because it's small and light, but that would be a whole different system. I could run it as such, powering the forced-air blower, and auxillary systems off that. Maybe regen, on a road course, would make that system small and moderately self-sustaining, and help eliminate parasitic losses on the main drive system? A little 25lb LiPo pack that can handle constant, high-rate, charge/discharge? Not sorted out there yet, just thinking out loud...


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## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

hi, Todd
neat ideas!

1. Torque vectoring unit?
2. is BigSol that Big like on drawing? : ))


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Wouldn't it make more sense to bolt the two motors to a common shaft and just drive the rear wheels? I'm all for four wheel drive supercars but I think it would be much more fitting with the vehicle's retro theme to keep it rear wheel drive. Plus it would keep things simple and you'd have more room for batteries. Cool project, regardless.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Oooohhhh, nice!

How do you fit all that in the Inhaler body? It is smaller then my trike and I don't even have space for a tunnel.

Does your reverse motor need to be that big? Or is it just big for the regen?

I came across a diff for a rally car that had a switchable drive direction. A trike company was using them for the rear axle to give reverse. I can't remember what the make was but I'm sure you can find it. One of those on each axle would give you reverse.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gor said:


> hi, Todd
> neat ideas!
> 
> 1. Torque vectoring unit?
> 2. is BigSol that Big like on drawing? : ))


Thanks gor! 
1. Commonly called a center differential in AWD and 4WD applications, it's a multi-disc clutch pack that controls how much torque is sent to the front wheels. I labeled it a "Torque Vectoring Unit" (TVU) because a center differential splits power between the front and rear wheels. In this case, the rear wheels are permanently connected and receive full torque all the time. The TVU, through a combination of sensors and a stepper motor or actuator, will only control what goes forward.

2. Yup. That box is the exact size Tesseract specified in the thread on Big Sol. Those specs aren't set in stone yet, but are what they have modeled in CAD for the enclosure. I didn't bother to model it to look like their CAD rendering because i was just trying to see where it would fit.

I might have to put Big Sol's big ass in the bed, mounted horizontally. As it is the in rendering, the frame kick-ups to the upper control arm mounts run right through it and the (green) battery pack. I don't know yet if I can re-route the kick-ups for enough clearance. I can fit twin battery packs down low under the seats, and extending back towards the rear wheels, which would hopefully compensate for the moving Big Sol's weight up and back - hopefully. I like what's in the rendering best, and will try to make that work first.






zeroexcelcior said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to bolt the two motors to a common shaft and just drive the rear wheels? I'm all for four wheel drive supercars but I think it would be much more fitting with the vehicle's retro theme to keep it rear wheel drive. Plus it would keep things simple and you'd have more room for batteries. Cool project, regardless.


Thanks, simple went out the window a long time ago with this one. With Big Sol connected to two Warp motors, it would take too much of a single-dimension rear suspension set up to apply the power, with anything other than wrinkle walls on the back. With the AWD setup, I can keep decent (corner) handling tuned in and get enough traction to run pretty decent 0-60mph and 60ft times. Even in all-out drag racing, with drag slicks in place, AWD vehicles are pretty quick off the line. It's a win-win...

Plus, you wouldn't know any of that was there if I hadn't posted it here. There will be no clue that there is, indeed, an AWD supercar under the antique-ish skin. That just makes the whole thing so much sweeter to me! 




Which brings me to the Woodster's post:




Woodsmith said:


> Oooohhhh, nice!
> 
> How do you fit all that in the Inhaler body? It is smaller then my trike and I don't even have space for a tunnel...


Thanks Woody!  It's magic!  Seriously, it took a lot of thought and CAD time to get it all stuffed in there! I _might_ have to widen the body an inch or two in back, but that adds to my wedge shape, so I wouldn't mind that. I have actually considered doing it anyway, from time to time, because from some angles it still looks almost square - even with the cowl area pinched 4.5". As it sits, I have an eight-inch tunnel, with the seat I was working on, and just enough room to squeeze my narrow azz in there. If I lose the seat, and do custom molded buckets (like serious race cars do) that hug the body and tunnel, it should work. I could probably fit without widening the body. If I widen it a couple inches, more people could squeeze in and drive it. T-buckets are actually not too bad in the seating area. I've seen some pretty big dudes in them (with high or no roof, of course, but they fit inside the dimensions of the bucket).




Woodsmith said:


> ...Does your reverse motor need to be that big? Or is it just big for the regen?...


The reverse motor doesn't have to be that big, it was for regen, and because the _little_ AC20 is _only_ 40-50lbs. I'm not sure how much sense it really makes yet but I like the idea of a completely separate power system for the cooling and accessories. I could even run the 12v systems off of it, totally isolating the main power system from the vehicle. All of that is just thinking out loud, in CAD, so it's all subject to change.




Woodsmith said:


> ...I came across a diff for a rally car that had a switchable drive direction. A trike company was using them for the rear axle to give reverse. I can't remember what the make was but I'm sure you can find it. One of those on each axle would give you reverse.


For the type of abuse I have planned, the only differentials I would trust are Ford 9" based - the drag racing standard (work really well in road course and autocross too). I also want an electronic reverse. I think I am going to end up getting rid of my shifter eventually. As much as I wanted it, it really doesn't fit what I have in mind for the interior and control systems. I keep trying to find a way to make it fit, but not so much, so far. I like that VW shifter base and boot though, so I might turn it into my "Big Red Button".


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It's official, you've gone insane


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It's official, you've gone insane


Thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time! 

Actually, I am finally back! I have been just puttering along in life since 2008, when I closed my shop. I'm finally getting my drive back and starting to think like Todd again. I don't typically do "mild", and what I was doing with the Inhaler before was mild by my standards. Buckle up!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to bolt the two motors to a common shaft and just drive the rear wheels?...


By the way, the motors would be coupled together, sending the full torque of both motors to the rear wheels, all the time. The TVU sends a portion of that total (combined motors) torque forward, not just the front motor. I favor a coupler over a single shaft because if one motor is zorched or otherwise damaged a replacement can simply be bolted in and the fun can continue.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Holy cow, this thread has slipped to page 2! Horrors!  Hopefully Todd that means you are making mad progress!

Anyway, I melted my brush gear and need to upgrade my cooling system. Thoughts have been tending towards loud and powerful things like vacuum cleaners, leaf blowers, and model airplane ducted fan motors.

Then thoughts went towards control, to run lower rpm for regular driving for more quiet.

Then thoughts went to slowly ramping up the loud fan on the starting line, revving with Amps or rpm just for the fun sounds, and slowly spinning down the fan when parking (like the Men in Black car did).

Then I perused some ducted fan and voltage controlled vacuum motors on youtube -- some sounded like turbines or jet motors!

Then I remembered ToddsHotRods was going to do a huge cooling blower! Todd I think that would be a most awesome feature for your machine.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Holy cow, this thread has slipped to page 2! Horrors!  Hopefully Todd that means you are making mad progress!...


Heh, not quite. I've been wrestling with a lot of issues I have with this project - many are technical design considerations that just take a while to work through, and some are personal concerns I have. I had to dig back like 5-6 pages to find this novel a couple times. Page two ain't so bad...  





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...
> Anyway, I melted my brush gear and need to upgrade my cooling system...


Did this happen on the salt? How did you do this year?





DavidDymaxion said:


> ... Thoughts have been tending towards loud and powerful things like vacuum cleaners, leaf blowers, and model airplane ducted fan motors.
> 
> Then thoughts went towards control, to run lower rpm for regular driving for more quiet.
> 
> ...


Yup. That's pretty much where I'm going with it. I have plans for everything from rev-with-the-throttle-pedal (I have a PM blower drive motor for regen back into the system to pull the motor back down like an ICE would rev), to spooling up and down jet engine/turbine style, to off and completely silent (to swat those pesky pedestrians). I had the blower housing model pretty far along, with the intention of whittling it from big chunks of 6061, but later came up with the idea of carbon fiber housings with cast and machined 6061 complements. Carbon fiber seems to have a deeper resonance frequency, which should make it sound even better; plus, it will be lighter in weight.

Someday...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I need to write up my adventure and post it, I have some great video of Lightning and BYU setting records, and even some good pics of my non-record-setting car. I installed a Kelly, it has been working great. I did some 1000 A tests, everything worked well, at about 50% duty cycle (floor it, slow, floor it, slow). Unfortunately my brush gear overheated on the extended 1000A test on the Salt Flats -- I coasted through the midway lights just under 60 mph. This is why I'm in search of mega cooling!

Another challenge to you, Todd: We can have a cooling system "Sound Off" challenge on the Salt Flats next year! I'll never beat your car in the looks department!


toddshotrods said:


> Heh, not quite. I've been wrestling with a lot of issues I have with this project - many are technical design considerations that just take a while to work through, and some are personal concerns I have. I had to dig back like 5-6 pages to find this novel a couple times. Page two ain't so bad...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Another challenge to you, Todd: We can have a cooling system "Sound Off" challenge on the Salt Flats next year!...


You're on!  Hmmm, providing I can actually get it to the Salt Flats next year. I've been around the block enough in life to know to that smiles and enthusiastic shouts of "let's do it" don't always translate in to tangible forward progress. After the big burger-n-beer-fueled Team Inhaler meeting, the blazing bonfire to do what really needs to be done to get the little hot rod to Bonneville has predictably relinquished itself to a flickering candle flame. Maybe I shouldn't have revealed what needed to be done to actually go! 

I knew this was a likely outcome, because they weren't really anticipating what levels of commitment it would take. I'm not saying the idea is dead, just that I need to re-think how I was planning to go about all this. I'm in the process of finally, officially, re-opening my business, and development of the Inhaler will be squarely back under that "roof". I hired, on paper, the two Team Inhaler members who were, and continue to be, always ready to devote time and energy to getting things done. They're anxiously waiting for me to set an agenda for working on it. If nothing else ever comes out of it, the volunteer team concept was worth it's weight in gold to me because I found these two guys. They were willing to work for free, more and better than some lazy-azz people who get paid good money. I am going to try to pay them good money...

I have some things to resolve about how the Inhaler will be utilized in the new business plans, how the relationship with the Columbus Idea Foundry will look now, and what the exact role of the volunteer team will be (probably more for promotional work like event staffing, videos, racing, etc). There are a number of people that are anxious to see the Inhaler fully realized but it's more complicated than just building a little hot rod and having fun, to me.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I was wondering why the slow down in progress, I thought it may have been because the update to 4wd...

Maybe you might want to scale back a little, and get the one motor RWD arrangement working... Take it to the flats and use it as a learning tool... Then with that knowledge move to the more complicated 4wd twin motor setup... Inhaler 2 Electric Boogaloo 


Hey, Your a CAD guy right? I'm about to try and teach myself... Mind if I PM you questions now and then? I want to make my own Track-T body using formers and over laying with foam and then fiberglass, but I want a 32 style roof on it...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> I was wondering why the slow down in progress, I thought it may have been because the update to 4wd...


Nope, the AWD plans aren't a big challenge for me. Getting everything to fit was a bit of a challenge, but that's where CAD is worth it's weight in gold. I could try the ideas and see the pitfalls, with just a little investment of time. The slow down is because I purposely put the brakes on things. It's too complicated to explain within the context of this thread, but it's a necessary evil. I'm not quite ready to take my foot off that pedal yet either, so it may continue to putt along for a while.





madmike8 said:


> ...Maybe you might want to scale back a little, and get the one motor RWD arrangement working... Take it to the flats and use it as a learning tool... Then with that knowledge move to the more complicated 4wd twin motor setup... Inhaler 2 Electric Boogaloo ...


No way. It's all or nothing. I either shoot for the stars or this project has no meaning, no worth, to me. That's what it was conceived to be, back in 2005, before it was even an EV, and that's what it must be for me to have any interest in it. If I ever decide to scale it back, it will be because I sold it to someone with more normal goals, and we're developing it for them.






madmike8 said:


> ...Hey, Your a CAD guy right? I'm about to try and teach myself... Mind if I PM you questions now and then? I want to make my own Track-T body using formers and over laying with foam and then fiberglass, but I want a 32 style roof on it...


Absolutely. I sure am. Sounds like fun; I'm looking forward to seeing what you're up to.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

A big hurdle out of the way. Since moving the Inhaler to the Columbus Idea Foundry in March, it really hasn't had it's own space, and has been hanging out in the common space/hallways more than anything. That situation has finally been resolved! The dotted, masking tape, lines on the floor mark where the walls are about to go up, creating a 760 sq-ft design studio and workspace for development of the Inhaler and a sibling kit car concept I developed (hence the ICE on the floor beside it).









The dotted line, masking tape, rectangle around the ICE (behind the Inhaler) is where the 12x6' frame table will be located. This is where the Inhaler's insane chassis will be perfected and recreated (lighter), and where the kit car chassis will be developed, and produced (initially). On the back wall and to the left of the Inhaler are two smaller workspaces for parts fabrication. Beyond the Inhaler, in the far corner, is my personal on-site cubicle-office, where I can work on design stuff, and oversee the team as they bring those ideas to life.

We're _hoping_ to get the walls up before the middle of next month, when we have some prospective financial backers coming to visit. I am working through the design of the actual studio - which will be as extravagant as the hot rods!  Lots of columns and arches... I want it to feel like you've stepped back in time when you enter the space.

Coming up: the stretch to 108" should happen before the visit next month. One of my guys is in Europe right now, and we're planning to jump on that when he gets back; next week I think. I want them to see the max-performance version of the Inhaler, not the cute little 90-incher. 

Other than that, just waiting to see the results and final specs for Big Sol, and the dual-comm Warp motors, so I can make some hard decisions on the setup. I still plan to get it running with my GE, for now, and start shaking the chassis out. Not sure where we stand with Bonneville 2012, but we're still pushing for it. Alex and I both want to take the video guy, and have him film the whole trip, so that pretty much doubles (triples?) the budget. We'll see.

Speaking of him, here's a rough draft of the promo we've been shooting. There's much more to come with this, as we've gotten sidetracked and haven't even updated it with the latest developments on the vehicle yet. The ending is also not right. It will have a more biz-to-biz feel, promoting the relationships between the Inhaler Project, the kit car company, my design firm, and the Idea Foundry, as they are.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool, glad to have an update.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Awesome video and glad to see an Inhaler post! I liked the arcy sparky sounds in the background.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Cool, glad to have an update.





DavidDymaxion said:


> Awesome video and glad to see an Inhaler post! I liked the arcy sparky sounds in the background.


Thanks guys. I'm working through a maze of business decisions and issues, but the Inhaler is still the centerpiece. Eventually, this thing will be in gear and moving full steam ahead.

Our video guy went on a long vacation right after filming what we had there, and is still trying to get caught up, since getting back to work. The good news is the owner of the company is pretty psyched about the project, and still in full support of it, so we'll be able to do some crazy stuff down the road. This video spot is just a teaser that we show in meetings and negotiations. The full documentary is the real goal.

That studio space was the biggest issue. It was hard to get anything done, and keep any kind of momentum with it being moved around so much. That was a necessary evil though, as the shop was growing and settling into its own. The whole shop is 24,000 sq-ft now, so the Inhaler's little corner is just a scratch on the surface. We have eyes on a 5,000sq-ft space to expand into for full kit car production and more dedicated Inhaler space, if all goes well.


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## jr dragster (Oct 11, 2010)

thats cool wish you best of luck


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jr dragster said:


> thats cool wish you best of luck


Thanks! 

I just found out that Revenge is playing here this weekend:


> Revenge of the Electric Car, written and directed by Chris Paine (Who Killed the Electric Car?), will open for a one-week engagement at the Drexel Theatre (2254 E. Main St.) on Friday, November 18.
> 
> Beginning at 6pm that evening, the Drexel will host an Electric Car Showcase with an appearance by Dr. E. Gordon Gee, President of The Ohio State University, and a car show featuring some of the newest electric vehicles available including the Chevy VOLT, Nissan LEAF, Buckeye Bullet, OSU EcoCAR, an original GM EV1, Wheego LiFe, an electric SMART CAR, and an Amp electric vehicle. Select models will be on display at the Drexel Theatre throughout the weekend.
> 
> Following the 7pm screening, movie-goers can also participate in a panel discussion about the future of electric cars in Ohio with local electric vehicle experts Dr. Giorgio Rizzoni, Director of the Ohio State University Center for Automotive Research; Sam Spofforth, Executive Director Clean Fuels Ohio; Ram Sastry, Director of Distribution Research & Technology, AEP; Brandon Perkins, Regional Manager, Ohio Department of Transportation; and John Pohill, CEO Venturi Motors North America...


I'm a little miffed that we weren't invited. Our contacts' names (at CAR) weren't listed there, so the Inhaler was probably never even mentioned.  They'll rue the day that they have an EV event in Columbus and don't invite the little rock star hot rod!  Just kidding. Trying to decide if I'm going...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't make it to the Revenge screening, but my partner did get our promotional display (posters on easels and handouts) there, inside the lobby with the Buckeye Bullet. A new (EE) guy with experience in controlling and integrating systems, like those I have planned, took a postcard and contacted me. He seems eager to dig in, so hopefully that will work out.

We have so much going on, that things move kind of slow sometimes, but we're inching our way towards the goals. The walls are finally standing for the production space! We have a long way to go with that too, but it's finally happening. The theme of the structure is going to be decidedly "Romanesque", with big columns and arches. The metal arch (highlighted in the second pic) over the doorway will be supported by four columns, and will be covered with CAD/CNC-carved foam, which will ultimately be skinned to look like it was chiseled from solid stone. They didn't have it back then but we're planning huge, _etched,_ glass (polycarbonate) doors. What appears to be etching will actually be done on the CNC router table. Also, the walls will eventually be extended up another four feet, with more, stone-finished, CAD/CNC, carved foam panels. They will be a modern, artistic, interpretation of how the Romans carved scenes into the stone on the sides of their buildings.
























It's not a huge space (yet), but you can see that it's large enough to swallow the Inhaler. This is the production studio where we actually work on the vehicles (Inhaler and kit cars) - the entire shop is 24,000 sq-ft, and full of machinery. We also have growing access to other, higher-tech facilities in town (more on that later), including a super computer and team for CFD testing and development. Step by step...


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## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Pretty cool to see the production development from the ground up - so different (and refreshing) from the 1hr episode of American Chopper or the like that we've been inundated with the last few years.

Later,
Keith


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks a good space Todd, glad to see the lump of wood still in one piece on the bench.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks guys!  I think 2012 is going to be a good year for the Inhaler Project. 



Woodsmith said:


> ...glad to see the lump of wood still in one piece on the bench.


It's surprisingly stable Woody. It hasn't changed a lick, since it was cut. I didn't mean to take so long to get back to it, but just can't seem to find the time. It's coming though...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's surprisingly stable Woody. It hasn't changed a lick, since it was cut. I didn't mean to take so long to get back to it, but just can't seem to find the time. It's coming though...


That's good. Seems like it has been well seasoned in it's life (or death, depending on how you look at it!).


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's good. Seems like it has been well seasoned in it's life (or death, depending on how you look at it!).


Yup! 

We went to car Thursday to chat about EV stuff and having a kind of Columbus camp at Bonneville (2013 now). Look what I found hanging out there!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow, it's like seeing a unicorn! I assume no drive system in it?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Wow, it's like seeing a unicorn! I assume no drive system in it?


You guessed it - completely gutted. The hood was up, but I forgot to snap a pic of the empty motor compartment.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Todd,

Rev Conversions design my motor coupler, http://www.revconversions.com/index.html

Awesome product and very strong.



toddshotrods said:


> By the way, the motors would be coupled together, sending the full torque of both motors to the rear wheels, all the time. The TVU sends a portion of that total (combined motors) torque forward, not just the front motor. I favor a coupler over a single shaft because if one motor is zorched or otherwise damaged a replacement can simply be bolted in and the fun can continue.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Todd,
> 
> Rev Conversions design my motor ... Awesome product and very strong.


Thanks Ron, they obviously make a good product judging by the results you've had (no coupler failures), but that's my domain.  All the physcial build stuff, and the engineering, design, and CAD/CNC capabilities to make it a reality, is what my team does - that, and electronics wizardry...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well, we have come to some final decisions.
We're going BLDC, eventually. We'll be using the single 11" GE motor we have for a bit to get the Inhaler set up, running, and (soft)rockin-n-rollin, but the plan is for BLDC. Simply put, nothing else makes sense for what I want this vehicle to be, and do. This adds about $50K to the budget, but is worth it.
Currently, after speaking with both companies, I have our sights set on dual EVO motors, with dual Rinehart motor drives. Maximum output: 1.2MW. Battery pack will be LiPo, and 1.2-1.5MW.
The goal is to begin purchasing the BLDC stuff next year, and have it fully implemented for the 2013 season.
As impressive as Big Sol/Shiva, and the new dual-comm motors, are the combination is simply not what's needed in the Inhaler. Reaching this decision is actually bittersweet for me because I had so much invested in trying to find a series-DC solution. I briefly had the bright idea of building a matching all-out drag car to sit beside the Inhaler, and using these components, but snapped out of it when the reality of adding another project hit me.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

1.5 MW!

I'm curious as to how you decided on BLDC. Are you worried about overheating and demagnetizing the magnets?


toddshotrods said:


> Well, we have come to some final decisions.
> 
> We're going BLDC, eventually. We'll be using the single 11" GE motor we have for a bit to get the Inhaler set up, running, and (soft)rockin-n-rollin, but the plan is for BLDC. Simply put, nothing else makes sense for what I want this vehicle to be, and do. This adds about $50K to the budget, but is worth it.
> Currently, after speaking with both companies, I have our sights set on dual EVO motors, with dual Rinehart motor drives. Maximum output: 1.2MW. Battery pack will be LiPo, and 1.2-1.5MW.
> ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> 1.5 MW!...


That's mainly due to the higher voltage necessary for BLDC (at least 600v). Combined with the discharge rates of LiPo cells it's hard to not build some kind of monster pack. It might be closer to the 1.2MW number. I mentioned 1.5MW because there is also the possibility of running at 750v.





DavidDymaxion said:


> ...I'm curious as to how you decided on BLDC...


That's a long story for a long-winded guy to try to explain, but I'll do my best to present the facts, shortly and sweetly.

I am still the majority owner/managing partner, but since earlier this year (around the time the name Inhaler Project and the website surfaced) it hasn't been solely my car. Alex and I make the major decisions together, and we decided back in the summer that we wanted to set our sights squarely on technology. I always intended for the Inhaler to be a multi-purpose vehicle, but together we are really focused on the *supercar hidden in antique guise* format.

Around the same time I started really following Ripperton's progress on his racebike and, even with the magnet issues, was impressed with the power that single little motor has. Then, Cro comes along with his BLDC-powered supercar. Finally, I follow the KillaCycle Racing team on Facebook and they posted (back in August or Sept, I think) that they were going BLDC, with an EVO motor that had the specs I was looking for in any motor. None of that by itself convinced me to switch, but it prompted me to look at BLDC technology, and then to compare the two (BLDC and series-DC), with the Inhaler's purpose in mind.

When the Inhaler is actually running and racing most of this will make more sense. Given the mission, purpose, and intended usage, of the vehicle, I finally came to the conclusion that BLDC was just a better fit. When I close my eyes and think through everything to a finished, running, vehicle - it sounds and looks like it has BLDC power. I haven't finished my latest CAD layout, but it's even working very nicely there; and the aesthetic is cleaner. When I presented all this to the inner core of the Team, it was four votes, unanimously in favor of BLDC.

Whew, and that was the _short_ version! 






DavidDymaxion said:


> ...Are you worried about overheating and demagnetizing the magnets?


Not really, but the thought of purchasing extra sets has crossed my mind. I would be more worried if we were building an all-out drag car, but I don't think it's going to be a problem. I'm more concerned with developing sustained power output than massive torque. By the numbers, we're going to have more torque than we'll actually need. The formula for the Inhaler has aways been to overbuild to the point where it has a LOT more power than it actually needs, then you don't stress the components much doing what you need to do with them. That's street-racing philosophy. A professional, track-only, racer is searching for that last tenth and more inclined to push things to the absolute limit, break them, increase just enough to cover the job...

This is why we're planning to run two EVO motors. Each one has specs similar to the single 11" I have been planning on using, but coupled together they fit in roughly the same space as the single 11".

And, they're going to look like we pulled them out of an alien spaceship! 



Another thing making all of this work, and keeping my personal crap out of the way is the fact that we are going to be marketing a kit car package very soon, that is similar to the Inhaler (actually based on some of the design concepts that were developed in pursuit of the Inhaler's final plan). I am getting the first prototype (in the next few months) in exchange for completely transferring ownership of the Inhaler vehicle to the company. I will be chasing most of my personal racing goals with my kit car. I don't talk about it here because mine is turbo-ICE-based. They can be built with whatever powertrain floats your boat, but I chose ICE. I do plan to do a parallel hybrid setup, with electric driving the front wheels, but not a pure EV...


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> I have our sights set on dual EVO motors, with dual Rinehart motor drives. Maximum output: 1.2MW. Battery pack will be LiPo, and 1.2-1.5MW.


sounds really cool! but also very pricey!! so have you considered something like Remy motor(s) using the same motor controller(s)? it seems they are getting ready to offer both the motors and controllers for sale:
http://www.evdrive.com/


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

efan said:


> sounds really cool! but also very pricey!! so have you considered something like Remy motor(s) using the same motor controller(s)? it seems they are getting ready to offer both the motors and controllers for sale:
> http://www.evdrive.com/


Thanks for the tip, but I can't deal with that website. Too much sales pitch, and not enough substance for me. Even if they have a great product, I would probably never walk through the doors and sit down to talk. I have a pretty good relationship simmering with EVO. Their site has enough info to give me a good feel for the products, and then they back it up with the tech I need.

Speaking of that, after talking to them a bit more, the voltage will be 600. I misinterpreted something I saw to come up with 750v. I think we've come up with an ideal setup...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

All this fuss over my little hybrid hot rod by no means means that the original, the one, the only, Inhaler is left out in the cold! No way Hose!  This week, we're planning to finally do the chassis stretch out to a 108" wheelbase, stretch the bed to match, and widen the body four inches in back for more *cheek* room, and a more aggressive wedge shape. It's going to an event with the Columbus Idea Foundry (co-founding partner, and the 24,000 sq-ft shop the Inhaler Project resides in) the first weekend in February. Either just before that event, or just after it, the Inhaler's body, bed, and front clip will be recreated in carbon fiber - so it will be stretched out, and dressed in raw carbon fiber, in a matter of weeks!  After that, we start on mounting the GE motor, hooking up driveshafts, getting batteries, wiring everything up, etc, etc.

The video guy is also caught up at his job now, and ready to resume work on the documentary. The silence you've been hearing is merely the calm before the storm! The Inhaler is still our flagship. 

Pics coming, when we start the stretch...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, tonight, we finally gave the Inhaler some love! We did the stretch - the wheelbase is now 108"!  This is a moderately functional mock-up, but it finally happened. I needed the stretch to finish my design work - everything has been hanging in limbo, waiting for this point.

Next, of course, we have to stretch the bed to fill the gap. Then, we're going to recreate the bodywork (and finally create the front clip) in carbon fiber. After that, we'll start actually mounting the motor, and working on making it move under its own power (super slow test speeds at first).

















More to come...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is the official plan; EVO Motors, Rinehart inverters, LiPo packs, and AWD. I might have to change to a 3-link rear suspension design, but first we have to get all the exact component locations sorted out, so I can figure out where to snake frame rails through for the upper link(s) and rear coil-over rocker arm mounts.

A few pics of us working on the stretch. I gave Kez the task of making the temporary stretched four-link control arms look good. She's a Fine Arts major, so this is a little metal art project to break the rigidity of precise, legal, chassis work on the G-bucket car.

The Inhaler (we now call it the Model E) has to be back together, in mock-up form by Thursday afternoon, so more pics coming soon...



















Here are molds of the bed sides, and then stretch panels being made in those molds. Today, I will stretch the bed to match the longer wheelbase, and widen the body four inches in back.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Model E, I like it. Digging the AWD setup and the EVO's.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Model E, I like it. Digging the AWD setup and the EVO's.


Thanks J!  It, obviously, took a long time and a lot of hours to get to this point...

Good timing, I was just on my way here. I pulled the stretch panels off the molds today (worked perfectly), cut the bed sides in half, cut the rear wall of the body down the middle, screwed the rear body mold to it, cut some mat, mixed some resin, and went for it. Unfortunately, I didn't take my camera, with intentions of using Alex's, but his memory card was full.

I did get the first round of stretching and widening completed (sort of like big, long, messy, tack welds). Tomorrow, I will start putting the parts back on and finishing the 'glass lay-up (better to have things in position, if possible, because they don't move so easy once there's multiple layers of cured 'glass).

I did take this one, blurry, pic with my phone:








This body has been pinched (narrowed) 3.5" at the cowl (which was also sectioned 4"), and now widened 4-5.5" in back. In the process of setting up the rear mold, I found the opportunity to add a little vertical wedge by making the opening 4" at the bottom, and 5.5" at the top.

It's like a big "T" cup (cheesy pun intended) - got any crumpets Woody? 

Pics of the beginning of the re-assembly tomorrow...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's like a big "T" cup (cheesy pun intended) - got any crumpets Woody?
> 
> Pics of the beginning of the re-assembly tomorrow...


Here you go Todd.









It is looking good, so many changes and improvements.
Cool seeing work being done and sparks flying.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Here you go Todd....


That looks really good. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...It is looking good, so many changes and improvements.
> Cool seeing work being done and sparks flying.


Thanks Woody!  It's very satisfying to finally see some of my design work come to life. It's even more rewarding to watch my Team take the ball and run with it, and do such excellent quality work too. 

Today, the flagship starts going back together...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Today went a bit slower than I had hoped, but we did start putting the Model E back together. The bed is still not fully 'glassed together, and it's too high in back. We just propped it up on a couple blocks of wood before calling it a night, to see how she looks.

















Tomorrow, I will set the ride height, and get the bed positioned and mounted. More pics coming...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

After an incredibly long day, where it seemed like I had to fight for every inch, the hot rod doesn't look much different than it did in the last couple pics, but it was rolling again and loaded into the front of a 50+ft semi trailer, on the way to the event this weekend. I didn't think about pics until it was in there and strapped down.

I lowered the back of the bed about an inch, and made temporary mounts for it, and struts to hold the vehicle up, at ride height. I forgot to take my black primer to the shop, so it still has raw fiberglass panels in the middle of the bed sides. I also didn't do anymore work on them because I didn't want to rush it. After the bed was bolted down, it was strong enough to, hopefully, survive the weekend. After that, we can take our time and get it as nice as possible for the carbon fiber lay-up.

I'll post pics of the 'ol Model E at the event this weekend. I really like it with the stretch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The carbon fiber body has been created and mocked-up on the Model E, and Team member Kez started the surfacing work on the front clip foam plug, which will alow us to get it in carbon fiber soon. The bed has been getting little rounds of fiberglass work here and there, in preparation for carbon fiber lay-up there too.


















































Two bad-azz hot rods shaping up in the shop...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you planning to use the original tub as a mold, or are you just covering the original tub in CF?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Are you planning to use the original tub as a mold, or are you just covering the original tub in CF?


We *already used the original tub as a (male) mold*. Look at the last two pics, and the Schism thread, there are two bodies now! 

One is the old fiberglass body (now on Schism), and one is the new carbon fiber bucket, on the Model E.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Very cool to see them both in one shot... Ya gotta be happy!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Very cool to see them both in one shot... Ya gotta be happy!


Beyond happy! This has really been a *challenging* week, but seeing my two kids sitting there together leaves me with nothing but 

Just wait 'til they both have drivetrains and can roll around! The motor will be going in Model E, and the engine/trans in Schism (still looking for a front motor for it), in the next couple/few weeks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's the core for the CF tub?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> What's the core for the CF tub?


Huh?! There is no core, it's just a carbon fiber shell. The fiberglass body was in three pieces, taped together. We laid-up carbon fiber right over it, then pulled the three pieces out of the new carbon fiber shell, re-assembled them on Shism, and hung the one-piece carbon fiber body shell on the Model E. That's all there is - a carbon fiber outer shell, for now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ah, I see. I assumed there was a core under the CF.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Sooooo, have you weighed the CF body yet?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Sooooo, have you weighed the CF body yet?


No official weigh-in yet, but it feels like it's ten pounds or less - keep in mind that this is a one-layer external skin right now. For how I plan I do it, the body we create in the molds developed from this one should be around 25lbs, but that's just the tub. The floors and racing tonneau cover will add a bit to that.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Todd

Why are you using CF?

With a wet layup CF is heavier for the same strength than S glass - and a lot more expensive!

(because CF doesn't - wet out - as easily as glass so you end up with a higher resin ratio)


----------



## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

The little guy is looking handsome in his new carbon fiber clothes. I've been watching since the days you were designing and cutting the motor mounts. I'm glad you have a team making some really impressive progress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Todd
> 
> Why are you using CF?
> 
> With a wet layup CF is heavier for the same strength than S glass - and a lot more expensive!...[/


Hey Duncan. Marketing, design, and research.

S-glass doesn't have one ten-thousandth of the marketing value carbon fiber does in the general public. Even my materials specialist, engineer, partner lit up like a 5 year old on Christmas morning when I said we're going to make carbon fiber body parts, now. Just to reiterate the point, this vehicle is always first a marketing tool. Everything that has been and will be done is to support that goal. Carbon fiber is a no-brainer in that sense. Cost is subordinate to marketing potential. If we don't have enough money to do what should be done, we find a way to get it.

In designing the vehicle, carbon fiber puts me close enough to sheetmetal work, that I can actually design a similar appearance and feeling of quality in the parts and how they're connected and attached. The only thing that looks as sexy as finely finished bare metal is carbon fiber. I think the Model E is ultimately going to be finished in exposed carbon fiber bodywork, with black paint highlights. Working in it now lets me see how my designs play out in real life, real scale.

I also have some techniques I want to experiment with in carbon fiber, so rather than waste money making useless parts to test the ideas we'll make the parts we need now with it. This will also allow us to test the durability of the ideas, as the Inhaler Model E will do its initial performance testing in development parts, so they can be cut, spliced, patched, and changed, as needed.





Duncan said:


> ...(because CF doesn't - wet out - as easily as glass so you end up with a higher resin ratio)


I'm not to shabby at this stuff - it's pretty darn light, and there isn't a lot of extra resin in it, for a hand lay-up. Of course, I can't match a bagged part, but I do pretty well. For all the above reasons, any weight penalty we suffered over using glass is worth it. 






Joey said:


> The little guy is looking handsome in his new carbon fiber clothes. I've been watching since the days you were designing and cutting the motor mounts. I'm glad you have a team making some really impressive progress.


Thanks Joey!  This has been a long time coming, and our Team is simply awesome. A couple interns from a local Arts and Design college stopped in the studio today declaring their desire to be involved. One is car crazy, and the other has composites experience. I am looking forward to the opportunity to coach, mentor, and work with, more like the crew we have now. I've also learned to bring them in slowly and weed out the hype.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_S-glass doesn't have one ten-thousandth of the marketing value carbon fiber does in the general public_.

You are 100% correct - and I hate it - grump grump

It offends my engineering Scotsman's soul when more expensive materials are used to no structural benefit

Probably why I am a terrible salesman


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It really is looking the part, Todd, I know what you mean about CF over glass.

I do really prefer hand beaten aluminium over CF though mainly because I am so old school. CF makes me think of teens in front wheel drive Japanese cars where the amps are more powerful the the ICE.
However, the black weave really works on the tub there. What's the plan for the insides? Any strengtheners needed, or upholstery?


I am currently wondering is there are any classes here for serious sheet metal bashing to fine tune my less then serious metal bashing antics.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> _S-glass doesn't have one ten-thousandth of the marketing value carbon fiber does in the general public_.
> 
> You are 100% correct - and I hate it - grump grump
> 
> ...


I should have picked up on that engineer's tone (grumping) about structural concerns and cost!  We'll make up for it later, as the plans for this particular vehicle include serious, life-or-death, structural, carbon fiber applications. At least then, you'll know there's some real engineering/pratical application happening under its pretty face! 

On a side note: Our Columbus siblings are planning to use a composite Indy car tub in the next Buckeye Bullet.





Woodsmith said:


> It really is looking the part, Todd, I know what you mean about CF over glass.
> 
> I do really prefer hand beaten aluminium over CF though mainly because I am so old school. CF makes me think of teens in front wheel drive Japanese cars where the amps are more powerful the the ICE.
> However, the black weave really works on the tub there. What's the plan for the insides? Any strengtheners needed, or upholstery?
> ...


I actually love, love, love hand-formed aluminum skin Woody. Given my choice, that's what the Model E would have been skinned in, but it's outside my current skill set too, so I am working with what I am familiar with. I think that is a good thing though because carbon fiber actually has better marketing appeal in the circles the Model E seems to draw most - techy types. There are a lot of old school guys/gals, and hot rodders, that like it, but the high-tech types flock to it and can't seem to get enough. The more they realize how technology dependent the vehicle is the closer they get.

That's also what I was talking about - I want to duplicate the appearance of old school metal fabrication with carbon fiber. Because of its structural properties, especially when we start doing bagged and/or autoclaved parts, I can design really thin parts that appear to attach to other parts like a guy would do with sheet metal. The thin edges, the shapes, etc. With composites, things usually look thick, heavy, and plasticky.

On that note, carbon fiber is making a comeback (at least in this country) from the instant tie-in to fart canned (un)muffled imports with wavy carbon hoods. It's because of racing. Seeing an open-wheeled car bust apart and watching the driver slide around in a carbon tub, usually unscathed, gives the material the reputation it deserves. I've noticed that many of the top hot rod builders are pretty fearless about using it, and leaving some of it exposed in the finished product. These are sometimes multi-million dollar cars, that are the cream of the crop, and highly respected. They wear it proudly.

I have to go now, but I'll try to find some examples in my rather large collection of hot rod photos later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...What's the plan for the insides? Any strengtheners needed, or upholstery?...


I want to keep the shell down to one or two layers, and have exposed structural "ribs" on the inside. Like a steel or aluminum race car's ribs would be spot welded or riveted to the skin it supports, the Model E's carbon fiber ribs will appear to be done that way - they'll actually be bonded with structural adhesive and maybe even some soft metal rivets for kicks. The point is to capture the look and feel of old school fabrication in modern materials, so they need to look thin and delicately, precisely, formed and joined.

Upholstery will consist of hammered, embossed, and burned thick, tough, leather pads on the seat bottom and back. Elephant skin caught my attention, from seeing it online, but I haven't seen any up close and personal yet to determine whether it's really what we're looking for.

Ultimately, by the time you regain your senses from the sensation of speed and power, and realize your azz hurts and your joints ache (from being contorted), it will be time to stop and recharge anyway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't know how I forgot to post these first couple pics here, I thought I had. Anyway, it's shaping up.

















Hard to believe the lumpy, bumpy, foam is now gone! Kez is a Fine Arts major, and she has been looking forward to the process of sculpting the front clip. I can't stop smiling when I walk around and see it developing. Can't wait to see it in carbon fiber...










Schism is now down on the floor with the Model E. My two kids!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is looking so good.

If I was closer, I'd be wanting to join in all the fun!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That is looking so good.
> 
> If I was closer, I'd be wanting to join in all the fun!


Thanks Woody!  Don't let a little pond stop you, get over here! 

I wish you were buddy.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Thanks Woody!  Don't let a little pond stop you, get over here!
> 
> I wish you were buddy.


That would be so tempting, I could do with a low stress and enjoyable job. Now where's my passport? And what does a ticket cost?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The field coils to convert the 11" GE to series-wound configuration were going to cost us $500 (from Warfield) and, since we have more real estate to play with in the 108" wheelbase, we just purchased a 13" series-wound motor for this project!!!  It cost less, with freight, than the coils would have, and also frees my SepEx motor for use in the front drive system of Schism.

Pics coming, when we get it in the shop...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm confused, I thought you switched to a high dollar AC system


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm confused, I thought you switched to a high dollar AC system


We're running DC for initial testing - always planned to.

We _plan_ to switch to a high dollar BLDC system, but (again) have always planned to run DC initially. I dare not try to go back and find anything in this lengthy thread, but I did indicate that we would be using the 11" GE motor for a while, then eventually switch to EVO motors and Rinehart inverters. The Rinehart inverters I want aren't even commercially available yet. I told both companies that we're not in a hurry, and would be doing our initial shakedown testing with a good old forklift motor. This is a long-term research and development/marketing project. As mentioned, this big 13" motor gives us a more economical approach to doing that, with more torque to exploit the weak spots.

I considered a 13" before, but it was front-motor/rear-drive, with the 90" wheelbase, back then and it just wasn't practical. I would have been loading another 50-100lbs on the front wheels, and squeezing even more motor into that cramped space under the hood. With the stretch, and mid-motored layout, it's a no-brainer. Especially when the motor costs less than the field coils would have.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'm confused, I thought you switched to a high dollar AC system


Found it. Page 136.


toddshotrods said:


> Well, we have come to some final decisions.
> We're going BLDC, *eventually. We'll be using the single 11" GE motor we have for a bit to get the Inhaler set up, running, and (soft)rockin-n-rollin*, but the plan is for BLDC. Simply put, nothing else makes sense for what I want this vehicle to be, and do. This adds about $50K to the budget, but is worth it.
> Currently, after speaking with both companies, I have our sights set on dual EVO motors, with dual Rinehart motor drives. Maximum output: 1.2MW. Battery pack will be LiPo, and 1.2-1.5MW.
> The goal is to begin purchasing the BLDC stuff next year, and have it fully implemented for the 2013 season.
> As impressive as Big Sol/Shiva, and the new dual-comm motors, are the combination is simply not what's needed in the Inhaler. Reaching this decision is actually bittersweet for me because I had so much invested in trying to find a series-DC solution. I briefly had the bright idea of building a matching all-out drag car to sit beside the Inhaler, and using these components, but snapped out of it when the reality of adding another project hit me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Found it. Page 136.


You didn't need to do the research, I believed you


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You didn't need to do the research, I believed you


Maybe I didn't believe me.  Actually I was curious to see the discussion from that time. I couldn't remember where it was, so I skimmed my way from page 90 to the present. 

Despite all my excursions into possibilities, the basic theme of this vehicle has remained pretty consistent from the first page. It just gets awesomer!  I really love how it has been developing since it moved into its new home, and Alex and I became partners in the pursuit; right up to the massive 13" motor arriving tomorrow! 

I need to get some better pictures someday, because the Model E is beautiful now, and very menacing, like a big cat ready to pounce on something.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> I want to keep the shell down to one or two layers, and have exposed structural "ribs" on the inside. Like a steel or aluminum race car's ribs would be spot welded or riveted to the skin it supports, the Model E's carbon fiber ribs will appear to be done that way - they'll actually be bonded with structural adhesive and maybe even some soft metal rivets for kicks.


Be aware that carbon fiber touching a metal causes electrolytic corrosion. You will want a layer of fiberglass to keep the carbon fiber and metal from touching.

Nucleus


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

nucleus said:


> Be aware that carbon fiber touching a metal causes electrolytic corrosion. You will want a layer of fiberglass to keep the carbon fiber and metal from touching.
> 
> Nucleus


Actually, you've made me curious. I am going to test this with different types of metal and see what it looks like - sounds like nice patina for an "old" hot rod to me!  Remember the rivets aren't structural, just cosmetic enhancement. If they develop a bit of vintage crud on them...


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

Unfortunately the corrosion will be out of sight, at least initially, because it will only be where the carbon fiber actually touches the rivet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Our new beastly motor arrived today! Isn't that "little" 11" motor in the background cute?! 


















Anything interesting in here? Anything to beware of? What are those yellow wires?










By the auction pics, I thought it would, but was especially pleased to find out the driveshaft adapter from the 11" motor slipped right on the drive end shaft. 








Even better, this shaft has much longer splines giving more slip range.









Now to find a big shoehorn...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

That's too much motor for that little lightweight hot rod. I think you'd better stick with the 11 incher and give that 13 inch monster to me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm guessing the yellow wires are brush wear indicators?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> That's too much motor for that little lightweight hot rod. I think you'd better stick with the 11 incher and give that 13 inch monster to me.


Really?! Darn, we thought the stretch would prepare the way for something like this. Oh well, I'll see if I can get it strapped back down to the pallet for ya.   



JRP3 said:


> I'm guessing the yellow wires are brush wear indicators?


Ahhh, that would make sense.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

So far, I've been lurking and enjoying every post. 
Let me share a HOLY SH*T!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

grayballs said:


> So far, I've been lurking and enjoying every post.
> Let me share a HOLY SH*T!!


Thanks! 

This beast is a bit large for fancy face mounts, so we're working on plans for a similarly beastly foot mount. Vinny, the other design guy on the team, wants to build a wooden mock-up motor that we can actually hammer steel around and form a fabricated steel mount that looks like a proper vintage cast iron piece. We'll probably cut about 30 plywood discs on the ShopBot and glue/screw them together for the mock-up/hammer form. Should be fun and, of course, we'll share pics if the madness.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think you will need a longer hood!

Forget hammering steel around plywood, no strength in it. Just use the ply for test fitting, or just use the motor itself for test fitting.

A rolling mill should be better able to roll nice neat hoops as a starting point, or perhaps you can find off cuts of pipe with the right ID to machine to fit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I think you will need a longer hood!...


 I think most people here know, but for lurkers - it's going in back - mid-motored. 





Woodsmith said:


> ....Forget hammering steel around plywood, no strength in it. Just use the ply for test fitting, or just use the motor itself for test fitting.
> 
> A rolling mill should be better able to roll nice neat hoops as a starting point, or perhaps you can find off cuts of pipe with the right ID to machine to fit.


We have anvils for the serious beating. This would just be for fine-tuning, and as you stated - test fitting, without hoisting a 300lb hunk in and out, and in and out. The wooden mock-up motor and hammering form was Vinny's idea. I want them to exercise their creativity, find out what works, what doesn't, and why - plus, it's a useful piece to have around.

Come to think of it, I should update the CAD mock-up with the 13" monster motor...  That will also help me start thinking about what the chassis will look like back there, around the motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tucks in well.  I will have to think through rpm range, speed & performance goals, etc, with this motor. We may need some kind of under/over drive gear box between the motor and driveshaft (which would need to be accounted for in the installation).

The green boxes are the battery packs. I didn't put any representation for the controller in yet, as we need to sit down and have a team discussion about our goals with this particular set up, how long we plan to use it, and what the budget is for it...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

With the prop shaft that short I'd be thinking of IRS, or deDion tube, or very limited suspension travel.
Looks huge in there.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> With the prop shaft that short I'd be thinking of IRS, or deDion tube, or very limited suspension travel.
> Looks huge in there.


It was only designed for a couple inches of compression, and maybe an inch of extension, so about three inches total. I have kicked around the idea of IRS, but that solid axle really fits the vintage truck theme better, and the musclecar guys have developed true sports car level handling with one now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is interesting (it's from here):



> I was at dinner with Cedric, and I asked him this very question.
> 
> He said, yes, he can make brush-less motors, and it's cheaper and easier to make, and he has the design to do it. Then he hit me with a show-stopping question. He asked what I would do with it if I had one... I had to say, "umm... I guess I would use it for a neat paper weight on my desk."
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A number of companies have working BLDC systems, I'm not sure why they had so much trouble.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A number of companies have working BLDC systems, I'm not sure why they had so much trouble.


I took it to mean the performance _compared_ to the brushed Agni motors - not that the BLDC didn't work.

I'm not to concerned about it, and would ultimately still like to go BLDC in the Model E. I just thought it was interesting. My reasons for leaning towards it have more to do with the sealed aluminum motor enclosure and liquid cooling than whether or not it can outperform a brushed motor.

For drag racing, I would still go series DC, but for all-around performance I like the idea, at least, of BLDC.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I took the 13" beast for a test spin a few minutes ago - it's a keeper! 

It takes all that mass a while to spin down too! When it finally slowed to a crawl, I grabbed the shaft and could still feel that there's a lot of metal in there.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's what she said


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That's what she said


Rofl! If I hadn't been in the shop typing on my iPhone, I might have actually realized how that could be interpreted!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'm guessing the yellow wires are brush wear indicators?


I'm not so sure about that....  Brush wear wires usually connect to a tab that comes in contact when the brush gets short and delivers brush voltage through the wire. These wires look like they are buried into the brush itself. Perhaps this is temperature sensing??? (I'm guessing) 

Edit; closer look shows that there are two wires per brush and they all go back to one conductor. So....maybe not for temp... ??


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> I'm not so sure about that....  Brush wear wires usually connect to a tab that comes in contact when the brush gets short and delivers brush voltage through the wire. These wires look like they are buried into the brush itself. Perhaps this is temperature sensing??? (I'm guessing)
> 
> Edit; closer look shows that there are two wires per brush and they all go back to one conductor. So....maybe not for temp... ??


Major? Maybe it reads an average of the eight brushes? There is a two-pronged plug on the case that I assume the wires lead to. I think my 11" GE SepEx motor also has this type of plug on it, but I can't remember whether or not there are wires on the brushes. I will investigate...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

There's another one on eBay, if anyone else wants a beastly 13" motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> There's another one on eBay, if anyone else wants a beastly 13" motor.


Hmmmm, tractor, stronger axle, bigger motor, stronger axle, bigger motor, stronger axle, bigger motor....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmmm, tractor, stronger axle, bigger motor, stronger axle, bigger motor, stronger axle, bigger motor....


If I could afford it I would buy it and ship it to you, just to see the monster of a tractor Woody would build around a 23" long (case) 13" motor!


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I'm curious as to how you decided on BLDC. Are you worried about overheating and demagnetizing the magnets?


All motor types can be damaged by excessive heat, current, or rpm. Proper cooling is a must. Liquid cooling is the only option for serious hp/tq per pound. Current and rpm limiting is also required on all motors.

I also looked around at the various technologies and decided to go high voltage BLDC on the awd supercar (watch out Crodriver  ). Induction motors don't seem to match the torque, and air-cooled brushed dc just isn't an option any more after having one. The biggest limitation (of BLDC) is the low rpm. The bigger ones tend to only go 5000rpm. You've got to have a serious overdrive or some monster tires to go 200mph at 5000rpm. 

Great minds think alike. ha ha... 

I think mine has a lower budget though. Currently looking at the Scott Drive BLDC which is only about $5500 for motor and controller. It doesn't match the EVO for torque, holy monsters those are some big numbers! You can see the spec sheet here: http://www.greenstage.co.nz/PDFs/Scott_Drive_100.pdf
I am seeing if they can pump it up to 640+ (mention anything about 720 or 800 and folks just look at you funny).
Cheers!


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ruckus said:


> ...I also looked around at the various technologies and decided to go high voltage BLDC on the awd supercar (watch out Crodriver  ). Induction motors don't seem to match the torque, and air-cooled brushed dc just isn't an option any more after having one...


I do still love brushed DC, just for certain applications - like budget drivers and drag racing. For the Model E, I ultimately want something designed more for sustained power delivery, and less environmentally sensitive, as opposed to brute force at all costs. I wish I had the budget to pursue an all-out drag car too - it would be series DC, with Warp 11HVs and a Shiva.

AC is the ultimate for general commuter purposes. Sealed, (usually) liquid cooled, high-tech, no magnets to destroy, inherently safer (controller failure), etc. I get why the manufacturers lean towards it. Not my choice for max performance, but a dragbike with dual AC20s (Tron) has dipped into the 9s on 120v...






ruckus said:


> ...The biggest limitation (of BLDC) is the low rpm. The bigger ones tend to only go 5000rpm. You've got to have a serious overdrive or some monster tires to go 200mph at 5000rpm...


Agreed. I was actually a bit disappointed to find the 5K rpm limit on the EVOs. Either and overdrive and/or extremely lightweight and a numerically low final drive. With the kind of torque these things produce, at relatively low current levels, it's theoretically possible to build a really light vehicle that can accelerate really hard and fast while geared for speed - that's what we'll try first. With direct drive, <2:1 final drive, and 32" diameter tires, the math says over 200mph. Not to complicated for a salt flats setup, a bit more challenging in a standing mile. 







ruckus said:


> ...Currently looking at the Scott Drive BLDC which is only about $5500 for motor and controller...


Look nice - I wasn't familiar with Scott Drive. Good luck ruckus!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

... and then there's switched reluctance ...

Anyway, not doubting you Ruckus about water cooling but wanted to understand the why of it better. I've heard that air cooling actually takes less air flow than water cooling for cars. Looking at VW bugs and old Porsches I could believe it.

I know OEMs love water cooling, but they also love complexity and super quiet cars, too. Is water cooling really better or chosen for other reasons?


ruckus said:


> All motor types can be damaged by excessive heat, current, or rpm. Proper cooling is a must. Liquid cooling is the only option for serious hp/tq per pound. Current and rpm limiting is also required on all motors.
> 
> I also looked around at the various technologies and decided to go high voltage BLDC on the awd supercar (watch out Crodriver  ). Induction motors don't seem to match the torque, and air-cooled brushed dc just isn't an option any more after having one. The biggest limitation (of BLDC) is the low rpm. The bigger ones tend to only go 5000rpm. You've got to have a serious overdrive or some monster tires to go 200mph at 5000rpm.
> 
> ...


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DavidDymaxion said:


> ... and then there's switched reluctance ...
> 
> Anyway, not doubting you Ruckus about water cooling but wanted to understand the why of it better. I've heard that air cooling actually takes less air flow than water cooling for cars. Looking at VW bugs and old Porsches I could believe it.
> 
> I know OEMs love water cooling, but they also love complexity and super quiet cars, too. Is water cooling really better or chosen for other reasons?


I've actually seen data comparing the ability of water and air to transfer heat, but don't remember anything about what I saw!  IMO, the biggest advantage of water cooling is it's a closed loop system. It's really easy to control and predict - still ultimately requires airflow though.  Then there's the fact that you can actually flow water inside the engine or motor, in sealed passages. That might be possible with air, but getting enough surface area (typically fins) to transfer the heat to the air would be challenging in there.

I happen to like both. I just made the decision to convert my water-cooled ICE motorcycle to electric because of the incredibly over-complicated system Kawasaki used to keep it cool. Nothing beats an old air-cooled motorcycle, to me. The fins and simplicity are integral components of what constitutes a bike, to me. I'm not ignorant to the feeling of all that radiated heat flowing off those fins on a 90-degree Midwest summer day though; and distinctly remember sticking a bare hand near the fins every so often to make sure it was still okay. I still wouldn't trade it for anything.

On my daily driver (car), water cooling is worth it's weight in gold. Watching it almost silently hold the engine at the recommended temperature, whether I'm blowing down the highway or stuck in city traffic, is a convenience that - again - I wouldn't trade for anything.

Short answer = I think "better" is highly subjective and relative... 

Need to find some "scientific" data comparing the heat transfer properties of water and air, to spice up this conversation... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer_coefficient

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=293733

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/overall-heat-transfer-coefficient-d_434.html

http://www.calculator.org/property.aspx?name=heat transfer coefficient


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All cooling is ultimately "air" cooling, fluid can just be a convenient intermediary transfer mechanism. Sometimes it's worth the added complexity, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's not even possible, as in a series DC motor.


----------



## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> All cooling is ultimately "air" cooling, fluid can just be a convenient intermediary transfer mechanism.


A very good and correct statement.

I think the real issue here is density. Power density creates heat density. Liquid has the density to carry a large amount of heat from a very tiny space (inside an electric motor) and move it to where there is convenient large space (radiator). 

Air cooling is awesomely simple and effective for low hp/lb ratios. But raise the power density and air cooling becomes lacking. All popular controllers have already figured this out. 

Bigger and louder blowers can be used, but a huge amount of air (35X) must be moved to get equivalent cooling to a very small amount of liquid.



JRP3 said:


> Sometimes it's not even possible, as in a series DC motor.


And thus they cannot compete in hp/lb with liquid cooled motors.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

ruckus said:


> ...And thus they cannot compete in hp/lb with liquid cooled motors.


I agree with everything you said except that. In theory, I get your point. In practice, series DC is currently king of the hill. The problem is it's best done in a "burst". If you tried to sustain that level of power, with series DC, cooling would certainly become an issue. There's only so much air you can force through that restricted space.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, it's more a power over time issue, not so much a problem in a sub 9 drag


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## ruckus (Apr 15, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> If you tried to sustain that level of power, with series DC, cooling would certainly become an issue. There's only so much air you can force through that restricted space.


Absolutely correct. Like driving on the highway or climbing long grades... (here in MT we have some doozies).

How many air-cooled top-fuel dragsters are there? NASCAR? Formula 1? Nope.

air-cooled 50hp VW? yep.

It's power density = heat density. Even blown air is 'slow' to remove heat compared to liquid. And noisy noisy noisy. 

Of course, sometimes you must work with what you have (I'm putting a blower on the Jag  ).

Edit- some interesting figures..
The 11" Kostov brushed DC air-cooled motor is listed by Rebirth Auto at .286 hp/lb continuous (40kw).
The high-voltage version of the Scott Drive BLDC water-cooled motor is .43 hp/lb continuous (60kw). That is 50% more!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Time to get serious about hashing out the Inhaler Model E's way forward, and the first step in that process was to get the motor in position. The plan we're experimenting with here is for a street-legal, single-seater (sort of, more on that later), hot rod. Now that I have Schism to exercise my creativity with, we can concentrate on making this little hot rod everything it needs to be to fulfill its mission. So NHRA, SCTA, SCCA - we're going to dot our I's and cross our T's. 

Imagine this with a Top Fuel/Funny Car style upper cage assembly, and with roll cage tubes snaking around in every conceivable direction. The idea is to run a transmission/transfer case of some sort off the drive end of the (low RPM 13") motor, offset to the center and sending power down the center line of the vehicle to front and rear diffs. More details to come... 

























One of the Team members is about to graduate with a four-year degree in Industrial Design. Tonight, I told him to take a crack at this car, and show me what type of ideas he has/develops for it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Remember this guy?! It's back (in the mix)! 









* Good news and bad:*
The good news is we're about to go full steam ahead with the Inhaler Model E!  The bad news is it isn't going to be a race car, at least for the foreseeable future. 

After, literally, years of consideration, number-crunching, and examining this from every conceivable angle, I have reached the conclusion that racing an all-electric vehicle is just not a feasible plan for the Inhaler Project. Sorry guys.  I would rather pay that money out in wages or buy equipment to train more people, and can't justify the investment, for what we'd gain in return.

We are, however, fully committed to exploring and promoting electric vehicles as the future, and the best thing since sliced bread. I have, therefore, reassigned the Model E to being, simply, an awesomely fun EV. The plan is to use it to promote the Inhaler Project, the Columbus Idea Foundry, the classes that are taught there and, of course, electric vehicles. It will be a ride in it, drive it, and eventually rent-it-for-an-evening, education, research, and marketing tool.









I think that big motor is going right there! I know it's going to be top heavy, but it looks awsome, and solves a lot of problems for making it work as quickly as possible. We'll compensate by getting the batteries as low as possible. In the end, if it's really horrible or at all unsafe, we'll move it - but right now it gets things back on track.

Coming soon, the interns will start whittling mounts for the motor, Amanda will begin modeling the drive system, and we'll try our best to have it running this summer. Wish us luck...


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

When the motor is 50% of the total vehicle weight, you might be looking at a Todd project!! Glad to see this project getting some attention again. I've been watching from the days when it existed only in your head and rough sketches. I really like your projects, but this one is my favorite.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

YAY!

I think the motor looks fine in the back. You could make it look as benign as possible, like someone has just put a bit of 'stuff' in the load bed. I was thinking the way some have a beer keg as a fuel tank disguised as cargo, you could have a bit of 'sexy industrial stuff'.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Joey said:


> When the motor is 50% of the total vehicle weight, you might be looking at a Todd project!!


^^^^This!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> When the motor is 50% of the total vehicle weight, you might be looking at a Todd project!! Glad to see ths project getting some attention again. I've been watching from the days when it existed only in your head and rough sketches. I really like your projects, but this one is my favorite.





Woodsmith said:


> YAY!...





Woodsmith said:


> ^^^^This!


Lol, thanks guys - it will be immensely rewarding to see this one actually running! The most incredible thing is I started this actual project (as a V8 ICE car) in 2005! 

I really like that _little_ motor? 





Woodsmith said:


> YAY!
> 
> I think the motor looks fine in the back. You could make it look as benign as possible, like someone has just put a bit of 'stuff' in the load bed. I was thinking the way some have a beer keg as a fuel tank disguised as cargo, you could have a bit of 'sexy industrial stuff'.


I'll pass that suggestion along, and ultimately let Alex and the rest of the Team decide. I kind of see one of those hot rod cartoon cars where the engine is almost as big as the entire front of the car, sticking out of the hood, and high as the roof - that's what made me stick that blower on it. 

I do still have the CAD files for that blower, by the way. I had copies of them saved on the shop computer...


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Glad to see it's back...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

madmike8 said:


> Glad to see it's back...


Thanks Mike.  I've actually been trying to get it back on track for a while, the racing goals were just standing in the way. There's a huge difference in what can be done with and without 200mph in the crosshairs.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

At this point I expect in a few more years we'll see another design change with the motor mounted sideways in the cockpit, and it still won't be done.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> At this point I expect in a few more years we'll see another design change with the motor mounted sideways in the cockpit, and it still won't be done.


Really JRP3?! You really think, in the ever-escalating grandeur of my incessant scheming that _that_ would be enough?! Absolutely not sir! In a few years, it will be dual 13" monster motors, side by side, in the cockpit, and the "driver" will be in a simulated cockpit, with haptic feedback, in the airconditioned motorhome, like a drone pilot.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ... in the airconditioned motorhome, like a drone pilot.


That's pretty much what we are doing now


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Amanda was Team Captain of the now defunct Ice Cream Truck project, and received a promotion today to Team Captain of the Inhaler Model E. Unless I must intervene, for something like safety, she will be guiding this project to life. She loves the crazy motor location, and even the plans for the antique supercharger style forced air cooling unit, so those things are locked in.

To officially kick the ball off, she started modeling the new motor mounts today. No words can express the pride I have in seeing this, and the honor it is for me to have her so excited about coming to intern with the Inhaler Project. Top notch. She is a serious enthusiast too - loves custom vehicles.









Her hope, her desire, her goal - take the Model E to the Goodguys show here in July!  That was completely out of her heart, head, and mouth - totally unprompted by me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, Amanda has been working away at that motor mount, lost in CAD. Yesterday evening, she arrived at what will become a reality on the vehicle. I forgot to ask her for a rendering of the whole CAD model, so all I have to share right now is the main plate. I asked her for a DXF of the plate, so I could cut a test part, and start shopping around for getting it laser cut. There is a rear mount that clamps around the frame, and a couple more pieces that gusset the front plate. It's supposed to be steel plate, welded to the frame. 

Normally, I am used to things coming out of my CAD workshops and being tiny in real life - this thing is massive!  Tell an engineer to design a motor mount for something capable of gobs and gobs of torque, and... 

The DXF:









A test plate cut in particle board (the screwdriver is for size reference, it's a long, relatively large, one):









Tapped on upside-down to test - it fits perfectly on the motor, so far. I am going to cut just the motor mounting section later so I can test the mounting holes later, without raising or moving the beast of a motor...










And, the plate flipped to the correct orientation, and placed on the crossmember it will be welded to. One thing I am going to ask her to look into is lowering the motor. Notice it's actually over the top edge of the body? It can go down at least a few inches. I wasn't paying attention to how she modeled it, so I'm not sure how much work it would be for her to lower it. It's a parametric solid model so, in theory, she should be able to move the center section and everything else will _self-correct_...










We're going to use a chain drive, down to a truck center bearing and rear driveshaft back to the rear end. Simple and easy to build with recycled parts, and should be strong enough to allow for a little fun - plus, the concept is basic enough to allow it to be rebuilt stronger and stronger as the budget allows for more batteries, more controller, more power.

There will be a removable cover to expose the chain drive behind and between the seats!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When Amanda arrived this evening, we discussed the changes, then I went to cut the motor mounting portion of the plate to test the mounting pattern, and she dove into the CAD work. I cut it in acrylic, thinking it would more precise (than particleboard or MDF), and would also allow us to see what was going on if anything was off.










Absolutely perfect!  The holes are so tight you almost have to thread the bolts through the acrylic alone, but they thread right into the motor, with two fingers!  Awesome work Amanda! 










Here's the updated CAD model. The point was to lower the motor. I'll cut a plastic or wood mock-up plate and test it some time this week.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Take two on the motor plate is perfect. There was a piece of Corian in the scraps, so I cut it from that. Nice.









The motor is now just below the top of the body.









Next is shopping around for the best quote on having this puppy laser cut, then recruiting some interns and volunteers to cut the other pieces and get this big motor mounted.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Amanda was gone for most of the summer, with OSU/CAR for the EcoCar Challenge. She's back now and still dedicating her elusive _spare time_ to making the original, the Inhaler, a reality. We decided to use some 1/4" scrap aluminum lying around the shop and just get the motor mount done. The plan is to double the plates to create a single 1/2" mount. The scrap was also too narrow, so the mount had to be split into two sections, which became four pieces. Not ideal by a long shot, we know, but this is just to get the motor mounted and make the old puppy move.

All the holes are for plug welding the pieces together - they all mate against a solid area on the corresponding plate. The teeth are so the torque isn't transferred into the chassis via welds. Ideally, all the holes would eventually be plug welded, and a bead around the outside. At that point, the cost of TIG supplies will probably equal just having a 1/2' plate cut, but it can be stretched out over time, and would look pretty awesome.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Welcome - to this messy process called life. The Inhaler was my pet project from 2005 (yes, it has been _that_ long ), until a couple years ago when Alex and I shook hands on the Inhaler Project (biz we tried to build around it). That didn't pan out, and I am also moving out of the community workshop this week, and - to my surprise - just found out the Inhaler is once again mine. 

I just, finally, reached the decision to sell Schism and try to get down to my two bikes and my tools (which are all going in storage for a bit) and find out that even if Schism sells tomorrow (eBay), I _still_ have a hot rod. I can't seem to get away from these things... 

No idea what the heck I'm going to do with it. Store it, fix it, sell it, all options. It does have that monster of a 13" motor...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Come on dude, carbon fiber tub, 13 inch motor, 8+ years of your life, you have to get this thing going


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Come on dude, carbon fiber tub, 13 inch motor, 8+ years of your life, you have to get this thing going


 Instigator! 

What happens next, whether it's for keepers or for sale:


That crazy foam front clip is toast. I pulled it off already. Too much time and money needed to finish it. Great when you have a team of volunteers and interns, not so much when you have to do it all or try to convince someone else to do it (to sell it).
 The motor goes back up front, with a simple driveshaft, to the stick axle - same reasons. The mount Amanda designed will work perfectly as a drag race/hot rod style mid plate. I also realized a new way to do the driveshaft adapter...
The stretch gets undone - same reasons. I can purchase a set of rear control arms from Jegs and be done with all that with four bolts.
No racing goals - just a neat little thrill ride - same reasons.


Now the funny thing is I realized, now that I am forced to consider it, that I would actually rather have this car than Schism. Mainly because it's all-electric. Secondly because the suspension is almost done - just install the springs and shocks, which I have, and put some power to it... 


You guys have won - you converted me - I, Todd Perkins, am an electraholic. I prefer electric vehicle projects, over gas, and even hybrid, for everything but my daily driver. If I had enough money to buy a Model S, that might change too. 

The problem, right now, is storage. If I can solve that riddle, I might...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> You guys have won - you converted me -


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


>


Lol! 

My reasons remain, solidly, the same - clean, open, design potential, and tractor-beam like driving experience, but I do prefer electric power over gas.

That 13" motor is the huge draw here - it's not even a normal 13. It's that 23" case monster. Just imagining that, direct drive, in a featherweight little roadster, is _very_ appealing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, IF, I were to try it I would go back to something like this.









Simple, short, sweet, basic. Just stuff the big 13 in front, string a driveshaft down the middle, exposed carbon/no shiny paint, batteries behind the body. Techno Rat Rod.

Probably no track nose, just a '13, tombstone, style grille, and not those headlights.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

That would certainly get some attention.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> That would certainly get some attention.
> 
> Bill


It always was a little attention junkie! 

That's an old rendering, probably from back in 2010, because it's mixed in with the renderings of the motor mount model, in the folder. I think that mount was cut in the summer of 2010. That was the original intent, before we started trying to build a little organization out of the project.

I would go for something a little more raw than that rendering - swinging back to that original concept, and adding in the exposed, mechanical, theme I had going with Schism.

As I toss it around, I have figured out that this car is way easier to store than Schism too. Whole, and back to the 90" wheelbase, it fits in a smaller space. I think I could fit it in a 10x10, with Scrape and my tools, if the front wheels were off. Disassembled, the frame is way shorter, and the suspension stuff, while being heavier, is in a few neat little sections that are easier to stack and package. I think I could get it in a 5x10, or even my current 5x9 in pieces. I could get Schism in one, but it wouldn't be fun and it would take up more space because of the cage structure. The Inhaler's frame is a short, almost flat, piece.

Still thinking...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm putting a LOT of thought into this because I have to make a quick decision about what to do with it. I haven't worked out the _how_, but have a very clear picture of _what_ I would do:


No racing, simply an "experience" ride/marketing tool/summer toy. A huge goal would be providing a positive first, or memorable, encounter with the technology. _Seat of the pants_ fast.
Focus on exploiting the massive torque of the big motor to highlight and demonstrate the tractor-beam-like pull of electric propulsion.
No need to try to spin it faster than 3500-4000, no need for gears, and at 1200lbs being geared for somewhere between 70 and 100 should be perfect. The stock gearing (approx 3:1) should be right around 100mph at 4K. More importantly is how the ride was getting there.
Low effort with maximum reward would be the development strategy/guideline. That's a lesson I learned from Scrape, compared to the incredible effort required with each individual aspect of Schism.
So, in effect, a four-wheeled electric motorcycle - that type of raw simplicity.
Two body parts: the main tub, and the grille. Ditch the front clip and the bed, and run what's called "Modified" style. They usually had a cylindrical gas tank mounted just behind the tub, which could be part of the battery pack, or electronics (controller, charger, dc-dc, etc).
The difference I see is that people can watch me, or a hired gun rider, do amazing things on Scrape but they're not intimately engaged in the encounter; still inspiring, but there is a missing element. Scrape carries my performance mandates now, so it's the bait. The Inhaler _could_ be the hook. I imagined getting a person in the other seat, demonstrating how you can interface with and monitor the system from a large touchscreen (again, like Scrape, a cheap tablet would suffice), then snap their necks! 

All without $25K worth of almost disposable racing cells, without a gazillion dollars worth of technology, and without thousands of hours of fabrication.

It would, of course, still have to have Todd style flair and extravagance - but Scrape helped me find a formula for that on a (time and money) budget.


Still just thinking out loud...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Come on dude, carbon fiber tub, 13 inch motor, 8+ years of your life, you have to get this thing going


I think you're right!  All in, and off the high dive! 

I pulled the front clip yesterday, tossed this around and around, then waited to see what happened with the auction for Schism. It didn't sell, so I decided to just dismantle Schism and move on. Once that was done and the spot was clear on the shop floor, I decided that moving on meant _back_ to the Inhaler.

The number one concern was where am I going to keep it, since I'm leaving here this weekend. I settled that by returning to the 90" wheelbase. I cut the stretched rear control arms a little while ago, and almost have them ready to weld back together. At 115" overall length, it will easily fit in a 10x10ft storage unit, with Scrape, and my tools; I think. Next, I am going to try to get the motor mounted, so that when it rolls into storage it will be tantalizingly close... 

It looks kind of cool shortened up, and stripped down. The carbon fiber tub is what makes it. Pics soon.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yay. For what it's worth I approve of the new simplified direction your taking. Hopefully that doesn't discourage you


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yay. For what it's worth I approve of the new simplified direction your taking. Hopefully that doesn't discourage you


Lol!  Thanks, just remember whose version of "simplified" we're talking about; and that it's pertaining to a scratch-built, 1200lb, 90"wb, hot rod with a 13" motor that's bigger than a Warp 13... Just sayin' 



Here's the little "Modified", all welded back together and rolling around.










Tomorrow's agenda:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One of my favorite builds on Monster Garage was the semi engined trike. They pulled the motor out of a semi, attached it to a transmission and rear axle and a front wheel, and put a seat on it. That's what I mean by simple. The giant 13 inch motor with minimal and light weight body around it has a similar feel to me.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> One of my favorite builds on Monster Garage was the semi engined trike. They pulled the motor out of a semi, attached it to a transmission and rear axle and a front wheel, and put a seat on it. That's what I mean by simple. The giant 13 inch motor with minimal and light weight body around it has a similar feel to me.


Gotcha - in that spirit it is greatly simplified. I like that, soon, all my concentration will be on the electric drive system. I learned how much I like this stuff with Scrape because it was a complete rolling chassis when I started, and most of my work has been on the electric stuff. Even that latest mods I made actually reduce the amount of bodywork, and fabrication, I will ultimately have to do, and increase my concentration on the electric drive system. I will try to follow that same path with the Inhaler.

Imagine, this thing actually running next year! Almost freaky!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Merry Christmas DIY-EV'ers! 

I'm kicking arse today on the little hot rod Santa gave me (back) this year. I peeled the body off the frame. That's something we kind of forgot about - we taped the frame and glassed off the body over the frame rails to create mounting channels for the body tub. Since it's been on there for over a year, it didn't come off willingly, but I eventually got it loose. No idea why I didn't use PVA release film, I had it here.  With that I was able to push the body back, closer to the rear wheels, to create a better hot rod profile, and allow full view of the big 13.

That accomplished, I used the forklift and a couple straps to position the motor, then made a front mount from a simple piece of angle iron. It will eventually become a sculptured little cradle and clamp, but for now it keeps the motor in place.

Taking a quick coffee break and then I am going to try to get the rear mount cut to fit, and bolted in...

Working solo, as all my little elves are MIA!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It was a fight, but I won. I met my goal, and will roll a hot rod into storage. That was actually a goal I wanted to pursue with Schism, but the amount of work and money needed was beyond my capability. Then, along came the return of the Inhaler - problem solved. Another milestone also - this is the first time since I pulled the ICE that the Inhaler has had its powerplant actually bolted in! 

I only used half of the mount Amanda designed because it had to be cut down to fit in this location, and is still not quite right. I want it to be wide enough to rest on top of the frame rails, as well as drop in between them. This is just to get it locked in place. I plan to cut a new one, from 0.750 or 1.000" aluminum plate.











From here, I could actually make this run and drive (low speed) for under a thousand bucks. It would have taken that much just to get Schism rolling and steering - plus, an enormous amount of work. From there I would have needed another $1500 to get Schism running.











The rear view is much better with the body back where it belongs.











And, the profile is more classic American hot rod now.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Merry Christmas, Todd!

I think you have made the right move with The Inhaler. It is much better as a hard core, basic, back to the bones, hotrod EV.

I have been thinking along similar lines for my trike and want to get it done quick, cheap and functional, 'cept I have to have a payload capacity and pass legal checks.

Good luck with it, I look forward to seeing Inhaler emerge again.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Merry Christmas, Todd!
> 
> I think you have made the right move with The Inhaler. It is much better as a hard core, basic, back to the bones, hotrod EV.
> 
> ...


Merry Christmas and Thanks Woody!  I also look forward to seeing you with a running trike project. 

If feels _right_ and, interestingly, like a huge weight off my shoulders. I figured out over the past few weeks of relentlessly prodding my mind  that I really do still want a hot rod project, but Schism was just far beyond the required resources I wanted to commit to one. This seems easy and fun. The progress I made with it, over the past three days, was substantial and very rewarding - motorcycle like; and that's kind of how hot rods are supposed to be, simple, fun, rewarding.

The only _downside_ is, at 49, I am physically beat! I feel like I just went ten rounds with a prize fighter.  I had planned to start moving my stuff into storage today, but I think I need a day to recuperate. Maybe some creative, fun, stuff to allow my old bones to recover, and stoke the creative fire in my brain a bit. Like this: 









After I was too physically exhausted to do anything but plop down in my chair, behind my computer, and eat (part of the reason I was so exhausted - worked the whole day on a PB&J sandwich), I grabbed a bunch of old CAD parts from Schism and PackRat, and created a grille for the Inhaler. It's just a plug for mold-less carbon fiber construction. I have some MDF and the ShopBot appears to be available...

Speaking of wooden plugs, I sat in the Inhaler yesterday and remembered why I had a 10" steering wheel in it. Then, I noticed the particle board plug I had cut to verify PackRat's burl rim, and it all "added-up". I am going to buy another cheapie wheel, cover that wooden plug with carbon fiber, and resume my extravagant little mission, on a serious time and money budget!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The grille is on the machine, as I type! 


Roughing = about 30 minutes.
Finishing = about 5 hours to capture the level of detail I want! 
This is the final major piece to bring the theme together. I can't wait to see it cut, and see it on the Inhaler...


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

I , for one, really like the look of that giant motor sitting up there. It lines up really well with the opening for the driveline, for one thing. The "grill" is looking good, too. I'm looking forward to seeing them together.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> I , for one, really like the look of that giant motor sitting up there. It lines up really well with the opening for the driveline, for one thing. The "grill" is looking good, too. I'm looking forward to seeing them together.
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill, I think I'm having fun with this thing! 

After the roughing toolpath finished, I changed tools and started the long finishing operation. It's too long to babysit the machine on these type cuts, so I start it, walk away, and check on it periodically. A little over an hour in, I go check and notice, as I approach it, that the machine is completely silent. They have a couple power strips to accommodate all the stuff in that station and somewhere, somehow, one of them came loose and everything just shut down!  It was pulled pretty tight and I should have noticed that when I started, but didn't. Maybe the vibration did it. Or, maybe someone peeked to see what I was up to, kicked it, and ran and hid.  The ShopBot, meanwhile, completely lost all coordinates in the process.

Luckily this is just cheap MDF, so only time was lost. I just rebooted the computer, re-zeroed the ShopBot on a fresh spot in the sheet, and started over. It's about a quarter of the way through the finishing operation now, running smoothly, and the grille looks awesome...

Pics later...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I am soooo exhausted! The ShopBot may have done all the heavy lifting, but I feel like I went ten more rounds with that prize fighter!  A part of it is from walking back and forth from my office to the ShopBot for twelve hours (literally). Part is because I couldn't didn't really sit still and rest much between trips. 

Anyway, I got the grill cut and glued together. Now back to packing.


















I wasn't thinking and left the edges of the Bat-T logo razor sharp. I know the ShopBot isn't precise enough to pull that off in MDF. I can fix that damage pretty easily, so no real loss.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The main pack is going under the floor, which means the Inhaler isn't a long-range touring car.  I'm thinking about a range extender trailer, later, stuffed fulled of LiFePO4. Otherwise, just use what's available wisely.

To get it rolling, I will probably use the Scrape method and stick 12, 18ah, AGMs (yellow) under the floor, with a 72v/500amp Alltrax. That will give me an idea of how the vehicle feels with this big azz motor and help make a decision on how much power I really want to shoot for. Even though power will be low, and range will completely suck (5-ish), it will _finally_ transform the Inhaler from a static shop project to a real, working, EV for less than $2K. 










A next step up could be 100 Headway (blue), or 96 Enerdel (green), cells. Not a lot of available current either way, but it would increase the range to something useful. I can double the count on any of these cells by putting them in the the trunk thingy that will go behind the body. With Enerdels that would get it up around 1000 amps of battery current; at a price though. The penalties are a higher CG and increased weight. Or, I can just learn to live with ~20 miles of range, and increase it as technology allows; and build the range extender trailer.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One way to get it going for no/low cost would be to stop by some garages or recycling centers and scrounge up some used starting batteries. I've recovered a number of "dead" batteries and gotten some use out of them. Some of them were perfectly good after a few proper charge cycles.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> One way to get it going for no/low cost would be to stop by some garages or recycling centers and scrounge up some used starting batteries. I've recovered a number of "dead" batteries and gotten some use out of them. Some of them were perfectly good after a few proper charge cycles.


I thought of that. There's a place here that sells them for around $25 a pop. I would have to build a rack or box to hold them behind the body, and string temporary cables from there to the controller. When I add up the cost of all that, compared to spending another $440 bucks for the cheap AGMs...

I am impressed with these AGMs, for what they are. The tiny, 5ah, scooter batteries I had in Scrape held up for a year, of me thoroughly abusing them. I would run them so low that the bike would barely move, and still keep the throttle turned and force them to get me back to my studio. Charge them up and do it all again. I was pulling every ounce of their 60 amp max too, because my gauge was showing 100-120 amps motor current; when it was working. They still work. I was using them to ride Squat around on 12 or 24 volts, direct. Run 'em til they puke, go get one or two more, until they were all in desperate need of a charge! 

The 18ah batteries I have in Scrape now are awesome for what I'm doing with the bike right now. These are 180 amps max, but Curt found some that claim something like 800 amps, for a little more. I don't believe that, but figure they should easily provide the Alltrax controller's 500 amp max, when wired 2p. Even with the 180 amp Power Sonics wired 2p, I could still hit 500 amps to the motor, just with a good bit of sag.

The real cost is like $1100-1200. $500 for the batteries, $500 for the Alltrax, and a hundred or two to wire it up, if I can find good deals.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What a week! I racked my brain since summer trying to figure out how to roll and steer a car into storage, rather than lug in a pile of parts. One email conversation, a generous offer, and five days later - I am all set to realize that goal!  In five days, the old hot rod was shortened, motorized, grilled, seated, and tweaked into a project that fits my plans going forward quite well.  The best part is that, once I get a driveshaft made, I will be able to stick a 12v battery on it, even if in the storage unit parking lot, and see how it feels! 

Yesterday, I bent and hammered a, wedge-shaped, aluminum sheet mount for the seats to lay them back a bit. That was bolted to the temporary wood floor pan. The point is it gives me a stable seat to push the button on the 12v test. It would suck to hit the button, get tossed out, simultaneously ripping my thin carbon body shell (and probably some skin in the process - cuts like a knife this thin)!  It would probably make good video though!  Today, I hacked the tops of the highback seats off to get them under the top of the bucket. I'll eventually make some kind of composite caps for them.











I painted the grille plug earlier, and with the seats in place and paint dry, I did a little cut-n-grind for a couple brackets to get it mounted. I will eventually, model, machine and/or cast, little artsy covers for these that finish the end of the grille shell and hide or highlight the bolts.











Also, photobombing, is my little, blue foam, mock-up, Soliton Jr. I wanted to see how it would look with the controller mounted there - like a big supercharger atop an ICE.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I also modeled my obligatory pack of Turnigy A-Spec 1S/2P modules. I can fit 240 easily, with plenty of room to increase that at least 50%, because of the small form factor. At their max, I could probably get up around 1200hp/3000 amps - which brings up the question - can I fit a Shiva?!?  I think so. I think I could actually fit one behind the body, where I plan to put the little luggage bag/trunk. Not ideal, higher CG, and kind of a long run for 3000 amps, but this was just a rhetorical question anyway; because I'm Todd. 

The point is, I _could_, if I decide I want to, someday... Why would I? 13" motor + 3000amp Shiva = uncontrollable, proverbial school-girl, giggling!  Forget top speed, and all-out racing, this would be for real-world, bottom-end, and mid-range, nail you to your seat, acceleration. Depends undergarments provided. Remember, my number one goal here is to give people a memorable, positive, EV experience. The Turnigy/Shiva deal would be a special occasion setup. I want 1000s of cycles of life out of a main pack, to allow it to be used freely, and without concern of damaging precious and costly race cells.


Back to reality, I started a thread to find out how 13" torque monsters play out in the real world.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The Inhaler rolls out of CIF, and into storage this afternoon. Work has ceased, all my tools are packed, and preparations have been made for the transport. I'll try to grab pics of the journey.  After the dust settles, I will figure out how to keep the progress going. I think the next steps are going to be the driveshaft and 12v test. I can't wait for that! 


I love my Saturn daily driver. It's small, relatively efficient, and just suits my needs and preferences. The problem is it can't tow. Curt and I have toyed with the idea of a mild turbo setup, but I am leery of how much the automatic transmission can take. Then, by the time I add up the cost and effort of a turbo, upgraded transmission, etc, simply buying something that _can_ tow makes more sense - except for the fact that it's going to be less efficient as a daily driver, or add complexity to my life (more crap to maintain) as a second vehicle.

So, yesterday, I was mentally toying with the idea of flat towing the Inhaler with the Saturn, and having it work like a range extending trailer. In other words, it would be on and providing "boost". A signal snagged from the Saturn's TPS could simultaneously control the motor controller, and with a special "tow" mode of programming it seems it would use very little pack energy. It's only compensating for its own weight behind a slow-moving Saturn sedan. That would barely be cracking the throttle for that huge 13" motor, just enough torque to match the effort of the sedan's anemic four-banger.

It would also eliminate the need to disconnect the driveshaft to tow, to prevent damaging the comm, as there would be normal electrical current flowing through it. The only hitch, pun intended, is braking. Even though the Inhaler is only going to be around 1200lbs, my Saturn's brakes are not exactly what one might call "strong". I thought about putting a pot on the Saturn's brake pedal, that would control a linear stepper motor that acts as an electronic foot, directly applying the corresponding pressure to the Inhaler's brake pedal - using it's brakes to compensate for the weight. I'd also have to plan to recharge the pack when I reached my destination, or it's "bottom". Too bad Series-DC can't regen...

Anyway, just thinking crazily, out loud...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great concept.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Great concept.


Really?! That's not sarcasm?

I expected to be told I'm nuts, again, and informed of all the reasons it's a dumb idea.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh, I think it will be a pain to implement properly, but the concept is interesting.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Oh, I think it will be a pain to implement properly, but the concept is interesting.


Let's make that _would_ "be a pain to implement"... It's just a fun, pie-in-the-sky, idea to toy with right now. Most of what I need to do on it can be unbolted and taken to a shop in my trunk, and bolted back on in the storage unit, so I don't even have a need to tow it right now. The next event goal is Goodguys, and the storage facility is literally down a side street from the fairgrounds' main entrance. I am going to ask for sure, but I don't even think the cops will care if I drive it, unregistered, down that little street from storage to the show... 



The Inhaler is now _in_ that storage unit. It just barely fit!  There was a little under an inch between the front tires and the door, and it had to be perfectly square against the back wall or the door would hit one of the front tires!  But - it fit! Scrape is beside it, and I will squeeze in whatever else fits and scrap the rest.

I didn't even try to do pics because it was just the guy volunteering to help, with his truck and a borrowed trailer. It would have been rude to have him out in the cold helping me and waiting for me to snap pics. I'll snap a few tomorrow of it stuffed in its little cubbyhole.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Happy New Year DIYers!!! 

I have almost all of my stuff moved out of CIF, but am still sorting and repacking a few things. To rest my weary bones, I take occasional breaks in my little office, before it's dismantled, so I brought the New Year in with a little CAD work. 

I purposely didn't pack the PTO disc hub, so that I can start working on the driveshaft when possible. The idea that hit me, while getting the Inhaler ready to move, was that I could have done the adapters so much simpler. I never seemed to see this, the engineer/machinist who did the actual CAD and machining for the old adapters never saw this. By simply turning the PTO hub (red) down to an inside-splined sleeve, cropping the end off a yoke (blue), and turning a coupler (light gray) to splice them together, it makes a neater, lighter, solution. So simple, yet so evasive.









The coupler will be turned to be a tight press-fit for the splined hub and the yoke. The chamfered holes are for plug welds, and there would be a weld around the outer circumferences. I am actually confident in the welds to transfer all the torque, but the interference fit should also help.

*Modeling notes:*
The yoke seen here is just a quickie I grabbed from the Sketchup Warehouse and modified in Rhino, to save time. I extruded and lofted a few curves, in Rhino, to create a representation of the splined sleeve. The coupler, was modeled in Pro/E, to make subsequent changes, and developing drawings, easier. The assembly and renderings were done in Rhino, then Photoshop, because they rock.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Todd, Wouldn't it be easyer to buy a slip yoke? Then spline the shaft.

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.msg4#msg4


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Ivansgarage said:


> Todd, Wouldn't it be easyer to buy a slip yoke? Then spline the shaft.
> 
> http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.msg4#msg4


Hey Ivan, Happy New Year, and thanks for stopping by my little hot rod thread!  I saw that when Miz posted about it before - very nice work!

It wouldn't be easier for me because right now I have no need to tear the motor down, I already have the splined hub, and need to make a driveshaft. I also kind of like this huge 1.625" splined motor shaft, and this 13" motor has a longer splined section than my 11" did, that appears to have been cut, finished, and hardened, for some type of slip-fit connection; which the PTO yoke does perfectly over it. Without any lube, the hub slides like it's on bearings.

This new design also, makes it better for incorporating a grease fitting. I'm not going to do a seal, because it will be torn down, inspected, and cleaned, periodically - hence the detachable yoke (has bolt-on caps). I'll have front and rear safety loops, plus an "armored" tunnel, but I'd like to catch the signs of pending doom if possible. I plan to beat the snot out of it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, I'm on one of my sit in my soon-to-be-dismantled office and catch my breath before hauling more stuff to the storage unit breaks, and I am thinking about backing up. About literally being able to go in reverse. I've been spoiled with Scrape because there's no need for powered reversing, so the wiring is simple and clean. I don't want a transmission on the Inhaler, and I definitely don't want all those freakin' contactors. What's a guy to do? A second motor.

A small motor, about the size of Squat's, geared down to provide maybe 15mph. I would love to use it to for regen too, but that adds a lot of complications. Right now, if I used something like a 12v winch motor, it would be really simple to implement and not complicate efforts to upgrade the main traction system. If I design, thinking forward, a really high tech little motor could eventually replace it, that would run at main pack voltage, be capable of stratospheric rpm levels (for deep reverse gearing and then regen at speed). So it would kind of be like the generator motor in the Volt, only getting its input from braking, not an ICE.

This idea was discussed somewhere back in the vastness of my little thread, but it is greatly simplified here; to match the, simple, rejuvenated mission of the hot rod.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A starter motor might work as well.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A starter motor might work as well.


I know one would move it - the torque is definitely there. I would have to modify it to not stick its head back in its shell. The winch motors, like this one, have a normal shaft and mounting pattern, making my job super easy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This would also be a nice place to try that A/C clutch idea we've discussed a few times over the years.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I know one would move it - the torque is definitely there. I would have to modify it to not stick its head back in its shell.


That's a feature, not a bug. You mount it so that it's normal rotation is reverse for the vehicle. It will disengage when not in use, so you don't have to worry about it spinning to 10k+ rpm when you are going down the freeway.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> That's a feature, not a bug. You mount it so that it's normal rotation is reverse for the vehicle. It will disengage when not in use, so you don't have to worry about it spinning to 10k+ rpm when you are going down the freeway.


Point taken on that, but I would still have to get that gear to mesh with something. An automatic flexplate could be adapted, but I'm not crazy about that aesthetic.

On the other hand, I can tuck a winch motor right beside and under the beast, adapt an AC clutch to its shaft, add a ribbed pulley in place of the parking brake (using the hub from it), and I'd have a smooth, quiet, system that will freewheel until I hit the switch, electronically lock up, and silently move the car backwards.

I think it would be reasonably controllable with a contactor, but if I found a deal on a little low amperage controller, like Squat's little Curtis (_"like"_ because Squat's controllers is PM only), it would be silky smooth and transparent,


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's 13-degrees outside, "feels like" temperature -3, all my stuff is packed and tucked away in storage. What's a guy to do to keep the fire burning - hit the CAD shop! 

I started on the motor mount. I will probably have Curt do some TIG work and (cautiously) use the thin plate I have on it now to get it running, but I wanted to know where I am eventually going with the mount; so I can design other stuff around it. I also have to decide just how far overboard I want to go with this. Simple 2.5D profile and pocket cuts, or a full blown, sculptured, 3D CNC machine part. The odd-shaped curves on either side of the motor will be recessed areas, for the aesthetic, not holes. The motor mounting surface, the round center section, will be thicker than the rest of the mount. I can do a full sculptured blend into the sides, or just let a ball-nose end mill leave a small radius between them.

The notches on the sides are where it fits over the frame rails, allowing this massive aluminum plate to transfer the 13's massive torque directly into the frame rails; and simultaneously strengthen the chassis, by acting as a crossmember. It will get equally massive mounting bolts.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Are you planning on any kind of vibration isolation? That big motor could transmit a lot of noise into the frame, ruining the moment, so-to-speak.

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In my head, I replied to this shortly after you posted it - I guess reality doesn't follow the rules of "in my head". 



dedlast said:


> Are you planning on any kind of vibration isolation? That big motor could transmit a lot of noise into the frame, ruining the moment, so-to-speak.
> 
> Bill


Nope, solid mounted. Even though I have abandoned the racing goals, I am still building it like a racer. That goes hand-in-hand with the hot rod thing though because that's where hot rods came from - guys stripping down to the bare, uncomfortable, essentials to make their cars perform better.

I want it to make itself known, because that will be a part of the moment I am seeking.

That being said, the motors on my bikes are both solid mounted, and I don't feel or hear anything from them. Scrape's leather pad is on an aluminum pan that's also bolted directly to the frame, and the clip-on bars are tied directly in. Nothing. The only thing you notice is chain noise. From a dead stop, and accelerating as slowly as I can (have the throttle ramp at its maximum [fastest] rate), if I _really_ pay attention I can identify the motor by feel, but it's mostly transparent.

Squat has been running with an on/off switch at 12-24 volts, with my little brushed-PM motor, and once again - nothing. I'm on a solid aluminum seat and there's absolutely no sound or vibration - just chain noise after it gets moving a little.

That was all my long-winded way of saying that I actually HOPE that I get a little seat of the pants vibration and sound from the big 13" motor. It would be a complement to the neck-snapping torque.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

All good points. And, whatever noise _does_ come through won't be anything like the racket from an uncorked, blown, monster gas motor. 

Carry on! 

Bill


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dedlast said:


> All good points. And, whatever noise _does_ come through won't be anything like the racket from an uncorked, blown, monster gas motor.
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> Bill






The Ferrari thing is that they build cars to put their engines in, not vice versa. That methodology, that approach, is what the Inhaler has become. I originally went back home and retrieved my old hot rod project, leaving the ICE behind, with the intention of sticking a big electric motor in it. At that point all my focus was really the car. The electric motor was an ingredient that, because of its physical form, made the car I wanted to build possible. At its pinnacle, it was this curvaceous, stretched out, relatively huge (for a hot rod roadster), automobile - _with_ electric drive.

This is different. This reclaimed, rejuvenated, mission is ALL about the motor. It's a monstrous electric motor on wheels. My goal, is to provide a platform for people to experience that motor. It's right there in your face and, by traditional EV standards, almost caricature-ishly, out of proportion with the rest of the vehicle. It's _hard-wired_ into the car, so that it will never let you forget that _it_ is the point. Where its massive torque would normally be assigned to moving tons of mass, it has no other purpose here than to over-emphasize the tractor beam-like pull of electric drive.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think this pic came out pretty cool so I wanted to share it here. Might as well post the blurb (from my FB page) with it.



> The end of an incredible era. The (pc) morbidly-obese woman is in full song, as my studio at CIF winds down.
> 
> Hats off and a Broadway bow to my friend and accomplice Alex Bandar, and to all my incredible warriors, my Team, who crafted the madness in the ghostly images that once lived inside these walls. (Look closely at the photo.)
> 
> If you know me at all, you know that I never take the easy road, never think smaller - so buckle up, I ain't done yet. - Todd


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

When Alex figuratively handed the keys to the Inhaler back to me, it threw me a little because I had this neat plan developing with Scrape and Squat. I had reached the decision that Schism was too much, and put it up for auction - then, all of a sudden, I had a hot rod again; and one that offers awesome returns on the investment. I decided to keep it. That leaves me trying establish a pecking order, of sorts. Between the Inhaler and Scrape, I have to decide which one rules, which ones gets the biggest percentage of resources, and how each one will fit in my evil master plan. 

To help me make that decision I wanted to model my over the top version of a motor mount. I use my CAD work sometimes to determine the potential in a project. Depending on, what it draws from me creatively, what it takes to realize a concept, and the projected marketing potential, I start to get an idea of what potential the project itself has, and can make more logical decisions about where to go with it. In the midst of my big move out of CIF, I just didn't have time to invest in the model to really explore its promise. With the dust settling on that exhausting endeavor, I decided to attack this mount over the past few days. Today, I have enough progress to share.

This is a pretty massive billet mount. The (surplus) billet plate alone is around $300. It would be a pretty intense CNC project, but I do like what I see in it. I have to really think it through now, and also consult with Eric about his willingness to machine it, or possibly the guys at CIF about when their mill will actually be up and running. I still have some clean-up and trimming to do, I need to extrude the motor mounting bolt holes, and counterbores, and the frame mounting bolt bosses - those will be pretty substantial. The recessed areas feature a detail I have been wanting to do - a textured surface. Purely aesthetic.  I needed this much done just to assess whether or not to go the distance. The alternative, on the other end of the spectrum, would be a simple .750" plate with the holes drilled.  The flat center section is where it mates to the motor. The recess in the sculptured (center) side is for the driveshaft tunnel. It would be round at the front with a gap between it and the floor (again for aesthetics) and then gradually spill down onto the floor, as the shaft plunges through it. So, it would actually look like a representation of the shaft, instead of a simple hump on the floor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That would be an impressive piece.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> That would be an impressive piece.


Thanks J.  After I posted the rendering and reread my drivel, I saw the driveshaft cover in my head. An aluminum flange that bolts to the mount, holding a carbon fiber bellows style boot (that's actually the cover over the front safety loop), with an aluminum tube extending out of that and down into the floor. It would look like a driveshaft, and isn't really that complicated of a piece to fabricate. 

I will say this: the Inhaler always was loaded with potential and that hasn't changed. When I start thinking about how to do something to it, the creativity just gushes, and the stuff is much more in line with my CAD/CNC passion than Schsim's hand-whittled steel stuff.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it's pretty much settled that the Inhaler is moving back to the top of the food chain, as my flagship design project. One of my major goals, in leaving CIF, was to get back to inspiring people, and making my mark on the world, through what I call "pure design". Plain and simply, no project I have ever had pulls me in that direction like this little hot rod. It was originally created for exactly that purpose, back in 2005, and it continues to deliver. Viva la Inhaler! 

I have the motor mount almost ready. The only thing I have left to do to it is add in the bosses or pockets for the pedal mounts; they will bolt directly to this plate. I am no determined to produce this monstrosity. The real beauty though is it can be swapped in; whenever. I can start with the little cobbled-up plate I have to get it running, upgrade to a better/stronger, .500-.750", bored and drilled, plate if necessary, while I workout the details of producing this mount.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I modeled the steel frame mounts yesterday and today. 1" thick plate steel with a little CNC work, and sheet metal steel hemisphere caps TIG'd on. The plates end up being 0.500" minimum thickness, with 1" thick, drilled and tapped, bosses for the four 0.750" mounting bolts. The sheet metal caps, of course, finish the aesthetic; eliminate the need to do a blind, tapped, hole; and save a few precious ounces of weight.  After some hand finishing work they should look like cast steel brackets.









My goal was to emphasize the mechanical connection of the big 13 to the chassis. Those steel domes should help pull people's attention down to the area, then the various gaps and radii will offer lots of light-play to bring out the details.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've been wondering how the textured area on the mount will look in real life when machined into the aluminum. Have you ever cut anything like that? It works in the grey CAD but I have a feeling it may look odd in reality.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I've been wondering how the textured area on the mount will look in real life when machined into the aluminum. Have you ever cut anything like that? It works in the grey CAD but I have a feeling it may look odd in reality.


I've cut similar things, but never that exact type of texture. I have to do some experimenting. The effect can be altered with the size ball-end mill used and the stepover amount between passes. It will almost certainly be smoother than the rendering because I would have to use a really small mill to fit in every crevice. Then, I can also use a larger stepover, and tricks like running a second pass at 90-degrees to the first, to create even more surface detail; which plays tricks on what your eyes see. A lot of that I can see in the programming simulations.

I also model for machine processes. The recessed pockets the textured surfaces sit in have straight walls with a slight radius on the top edge, and a 90-degree sharp corner on the bottom edge - the ball-end mill will automatically leave a radius in the bottom. The size of that mill will determine whether it rolls over down into the pocket, or just subtly blends into a recessed textured area. Some of the inside radii in the model are also tighter than the ball-end mill will allow, so the overall effect should be smoother, and more blended.

The little "landing pads" that butt up to the steel frame mounts are also shown with a 90-degree sharp angle, but will have a smooth radius up off of the mount; which will look similar to the radius on the threaded boss areas of the steel mount. I love CAD/CNC!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I sold the old fiberglass bed on eBay, and met the buyer at CIF today, for him to pick it up. While out, I stopped in the storage unit to leave/grab some things, and peek at the toys for a minute. Then, I drove the route I would take from there into the fairgrounds for the Googuys show in July. It's actually less than a mile from the storage unit to the gate, so figure ~3 miles round trip.

As pitiful as this sounds, as a last resort, Scrape's little AGM test pack has 324 watts - I think I could make it there and back on that.  I am sure I could get someone to let me plug the pack in during the show, which would effectively double that. The speed limit is 25mph, and I would probably be moving slower than that, because of all the show traffic.

I had been toying with the idea of making Scrape's pack, controller, and electronics, modular enough to share with PackRat before, and that came back today. That means all I would really need is a driveshaft and a little fabrication work to make the old hot rod putt around...

Maybe.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, here's the driveshaft tunnel I mentioned. The point is to emphasize function; to show what's happening inside it, and to highlight the fact that the motor is directly driving the rear end - no gears needed. I will probably revisit the section where it switches from tube to tunnel, and give it a rolled, gradual, transition. The front, tube and boot, sections will both be two-piece parts, with hidden lower panels, to allow slipping them over the u-joint and shaft.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I've been wondering how the textured area on the mount will look in real life when machined into the aluminum. Have you ever cut anything like that? It works in the grey CAD but I have a feeling it may look odd in reality.


I wonder if it has to be machined. Maybe you could mask the area with some uneven thickness material, and hit it with a sand blaster to get that textured look. But for Todd, sometimes the end product is not always the main goal, but showing the limits of a given process and tooling. It would be cool to get that look with a mill. 

Practical doesn't seem to be in the top three goals very often for a Todd project. And I mean that as a compliment - it is one of the reasons I've been watching Todd's build treads for the last several years. It is a big part of his style.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Joey said:


> I wonder if it has to be machined. Maybe you could mask the area with some uneven thickness material, and hit it with a sand blaster to get that textured look...


I've considered building a super-sized peening gun before that would shoot ball bearings , but never seriously looked into it. For the texture I am shooting for here, normal blasting wouldn't get it. I could fabricate a ball-end die to go in the power hammer at CIF, and do it there. But...


Joey said:


> ...But for Todd, sometimes the end product is not always the main goal, but showing the limits of a given process and tooling. It would be cool to get that look with a mill...


That ^^^ is what I'm after. 






Joey said:


> ...Practical doesn't seem to be in the top three goals very often for a Todd project. And I mean that as a compliment - it is one of the reasons I've been watching Todd's build treads for the last several years. It is a big part of his style.


Why thank you sir!  You're dead-on, and I try really hard to stay on the other side of convention and practicality. My mission is to obliterate the boundaries of what people _think_ are the limits. 


All that being said, I am just getting warmed up. I got a little off track, pulling my design work down to maximize the capability of CIF's equipment. Now, I am back on a mission to find, obliterate, and redefine, the known limits of design itself. I don't anticipate machining that texture, if I can get my paws on the right mill and software, or collaborate with the right machinist, to be too much of a challenge. I have a pretty good idea how I can coax a machine to do it. Coaxing a machinist with a narrow set of mental boundaries is more challenging...


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Fare warning... poking my nose in after a long hiatus.... real life/3rd career interruption. 



toddshotrods said:


> I've cut similar things, but never that exact type of texture. I have to do some experimenting. The effect can be altered with the size ball-end mill used and the stepover amount between passes. It will almost certainly be smoother than the rendering because I would have to use a really small mill to fit in every crevice. Then, I can also use a larger stepover, and tricks like running a second pass at 90-degrees to the first, to create even more surface detail; which plays tricks on what your eyes see.


Have you considered an acid etch?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> Fare warning... poking my nose in after a long hiatus.... real life/3rd career interruption. ...


Hey MJ! Nice to hear from you - it's been a while, indeed! Welcome back! 





MJ Monterey said:


> ...Have you considered an acid etch?


Naw, honestly that's not my cup of tea. Chemicals are cool and all, but I get my rocks off making tools and heavy machinery submit to my will. Getting a massive CNC machine to do a super delicate dance over those textured pockets, for no other reason than to see if I can, is totally "_me_"! 

They're not even necessary. 100% aesthetic, with no structural, functional, component, and they dominate the discussion - priceless.  The "crater mouths" around all the bolt holes are just as challenging, because they require the programing software and the machine to orchestrate and perform a similar dance. I love watching the machines, especially when they're really big, do this because it's like a bodybuilder doing a perfect ballet.  Up on those toes big boy! 

Most CNC machines spend their life doing boring, typical CAD/CNC, movements. One of my missions in life is to free them to dance...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I am at a super critical point in Scrape's design and evolution, that I need to take my time and be certain of before moving forward - so - the little hot rod that would blipped onto my radar screen today. I did the brakes and rotated the tires on my driver today, and then realized that I was surrounded by machinery, but wasn't ready to do anything on Scrape. I retrieved the Inhaler's splined (motor output shaft) hub from the car and asked Eric how he would chuck it in the lathe. He answered by grabbing the chuck, and indicating the hub in, then turning a couple passes.  Can't beat that with a stick, and it seemed my path, for the day, was unfolding in front of me. I followed it.









That will become this:









As I was turning it, I realized that there was no reason to turn that lip completely off, and that it presents the opportunity to do a really strong weld in the chamfer. I might turn the sleeve next.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've also been thinking a lot about what I am going to do with this project; what _really_ makes sense for my goals, and not what I can make sense of. One plan I am considering trades the low-slung roadster body for a tall, almost-cartoon-ish, cab. That would accomplish two things.


One it would let me target youth specifically with the project, with the intention of getting their fresh minds off to a good start in creatively addressing life, and thinking responsibly about how they go about it. That would also open the door for a lot of sponsorship opportunities, and education-biased collaborative opportunities. Finally, it could solve the short-term transportation issue by requiring people to cover the transportation costs if they want to use it at events (there's a benefit in it for them that makes that feasible, beyond what a more typical hot rod would offer).
It would also allow me to stuff a more normal battery pack in it. I think I could fit 24 CALB 100ah cells in a box under the seats (due to the high roof), 12 under the floorboards (6 per side, lying down), and 12 behind the body in a trunk or tank. That's 15.3kWh, at 400-500lbs with boxes and connections, and probably really decent range (especially at lower speeds) due to the low overall vehicle weight. No BMS (bottom-balanced), simple connections, and awesome cycle life, so it could be used as often as weather permitted.
It makes a lot of sense, _on paper_...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like the direction of your thinking on this. Now build it already!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I like the direction of your thinking on this. Now build it already!


Thanks! 

It comes second, to Scrape, on the priority totem pole; hence the snail's pace progress. If I have things to do on, or things to buy for, Scrape the Inhaler has to wait patiently in line. For a while, it might run on Scrape's battery pack(s), which would mean really restricted use; low cycle life on LiPo, sucky range on the old AGMs, etc.

Honestly, the only thing that saved it from being sold and/or discarded is I could stuff it in that 10x10ft storage unit. That only costs me $30 per month, over the 5x10ft unit I was going to rent for Scrape and my tools.

What it really needs is a list of excited sponsors, and a crew of eager interns...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In CAD, at least, I managed to fit 52 of the 100ah CALBs. Four more fit in the floor, two on each side.











If you know anything about me, from my time here, you should realize that I start from the stars with design concepts, and work my way back to the highest possible point in reality. That allows me to stretch creatively, discovers what the ultimate potential of a project is, and helps to establish a map towards the goals. In this case, going way out on the proverbial limb to a cartoon-style car for the kiddies, but made with simple techniques, I get something like this C-cab woodie. Plywood and/or veneer outer skins, with carbon fiber and fiberglass inner laminate; then have real woodworkers do all the external framing in exotic hardwoods. That opens the doors for industrial design and architecture based interns, and carpentry sponsor/mentors.











Again, while possibly feasible, this is just creative muscle-stretching concept art, at this point. But it's fun to play with.  The point is to establish a basic feel, a theme, to follow; and, if necessary, keep backing the execution plans down until it matches available resources.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I get what you're going for, but all I can see is a giant wind scoop killing performance.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I get what you're going for, but all I can see is a giant wind scoop killing performance.


Come on, journey back to when you were _little Johnnie_, and life was a big ball of fun. When the cares of the world of efficiency didn't even blip on your radar screen.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh yeah, I went there, but can't erase what I've learned since then. I'd hate to see the potential of that 13 inch motor crippled by bad aero.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I believe this model is creeping up on the theme of an old rod known as "Uncertain-T". I love drivable stylization, that is why I bought a Berry Mini-T.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Oh yeah, I went there, but can't erase what I've learned since then. I'd hate to see the potential of that 13 inch motor crippled by bad aero.


If I do 52 100ah CALBs, it isn't really going to come close to exploring its potential anyway, lol. Given the choice, I would concentrate on low-end torque and make it _feel_ like it it's fast. With the suspension it has, and that setup, it would actually be a kickazz autocross car - aero isn't really even a factor there.

At 166-ish volts, nominal, minus LiFePO4 sag, it wouldn't have the top end to do anything close to a quarter mile race. That would be an embarrassment for a 1500lb hot rod.





EVfun said:


> I believe this model is creeping up on the theme of an old rod known as "Uncertain-T". I love drivable stylization, that is why I bought a Berry Mini-T.


Yup. Uncertain-T was always one of my favorites! I love "Show Rods". Most "serious" American hotrodders are too snobby to appreciate them now.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Again, this is just concept exploration. Out of it, the plan to use a LiFePO4 battery, in a taller vehicle, aimed at the kiddos, will likely evolve.

The next logical step was to push the hump of the c-cab back, because that was wasted space. The actual head-n-shoulders space behind it was much less. This created more of a giant rag-top than a c-cab, but it's pretty cool, me thinks.










I also made a few changes and additions. One Soliton 1 looks better atop that huge motor than Jr, and would let the big-13 leapfrog the Inhaler from autocross corner to corner in a way that would have gas-engines groaning to match!  Two, I added the Model-T cowl. That's from the body I have now. Three, the motor mount is extended up in the the full shape of the firewall. I have a plan to make it in two or three pieces that could be profile cut, and then progressively sculptured over time, until they appeared to be one massive, impossible-to-machine, billet sculpture.









Next, I will run with this giant rag-top thing and explore making a frame, wrapping four-way-stretch fabric around it, and covering that with carbon. It would probably be done from the inside out, adding structural rigidity in pieces (internally) first, then the final cosmetic (outer) skin later.


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## davtrac (Dec 20, 2011)

Hi have been watching this for a while and am really liking this look a lot!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

davtrac said:


> Hi have been watching this for a while and am really liking this look a lot!


Thanks davtrac, and welcome to "active life" on the board!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Three converging streams of thought led to today's development.


The giant rag-top thing really sits well with me, and I wanted to explore that further.
I started wondering what that would look like on the current T-bucket body, and with the resurrection of Schism's door-less form.
I was talking to a very classy lady, while working in CAD, which influenced the design. I pictured her in Roaring 20's apparel perched and pretty on the passenger seat, and that led to more of a coach built style.
It still has the exaggerated proportions to appeal to the kiddos, but (hopefully) mature enough lines for adults to relate. Kind of like an animated movie laced with adult humor that goes right over the little ones' heads, but keeps mom and dad from imploding.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I prefer the new rear angle of the windshield, but for me the door cutouts disrupt the body lines too much.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I prefer the new rear angle of the windshield, but for me the door cutouts disrupt the body lines too much.


I forgot just how hot/cold the open door thing is.  When I first introduced it Vinny, one of my most faithful volunteers, got his feathers so ruffled about it he actually stopped participating for a while, lol.  I think the biggest thing that brought him back is Curt, Kez, and I all loved it and were having so much fun with all the commotion it was causing.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like it in the carbon fibre look!

It needs doors I think. Maybe removable ones.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like it in the carbon fibre look!...


Thanks Woody! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...It needs doors I think. Maybe removable ones.


All or nothing, and I am leaning towards nothing...


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## davtrac (Dec 20, 2011)

Sculpture and raw engineering! What more could you want.


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## QuietCar (Jan 3, 2013)

Todd:

It is possible to design in a small flare edge to the cowling at the door openings. This would force the laminar flow of the air to shear cleanly and tend to go around the rear door opening and reduce the air flow inside the car.

A small wind deflector along the windshield frame could cover this area too for the same effect.

You could get 90% effect with even a small flare as to be not obvious.
Same with the windshield wings.

Great car, keep it up!

QC


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

davtrac said:


> Sculpture and raw engineering! What more could you want.





QuietCar said:


> ...Great car, keep it up!QC


Thanks guys!  Long way to go though, don't hold me to anything yet. I'm trying to re-purpose this vehicle in my plans and then sort out the details of making that a reality. Right now, everything is purely exploratory. What would it look like? How would it work? How much of whatever resources I have would it take? Etc...

Hopefully, something makes sense and the Inhaler will land on a definite, continuous, development track, like Scrape has been for the past couple years. My poor little hot rod has been tossed around, and ignored for most of that time. 






QuietCar said:


> Todd:
> 
> It is possible to design in a small flare edge to the cowling at the door openings. This would force the laminar flow of the air to shear cleanly and tend to go around the rear door opening and reduce the air flow inside the car.
> 
> ...


That's probably almost inherent. The cowl flares naturally from the firewall to the door opening, and then the actual door opening has that classic 20's/30's styling/reinforcement bead that runs around the lip. As I did with Schism, I would retain that bead, so that would probably provide the flare you suggest?

The windshield wings are an easy, and aesthetically correct, option. Many cars of that period had them, and they would actually help balance out the huge roof, in this case. I will do a mock-up model of those when I get a little spare time...

Looking at it ideologically, and conceptually, those windshield wings could also become a seamlessly integrated (invisible) high-tech feature later with linear steppers hidden under the dash to change the angle of deflection! They could go full out, as air brakes, like race car and supercar wings! 

I'm having fun, the theoretical _top_ speed of this current plan wouldn't even allow for most of that last little fantasy ride to have an actual effect.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Well guys, I think I've unfortunately come to the end of the road with my beloved Inhaler. I am finally beginning to settle into the life I moved to Columbus to begin, the post-shop era, and there's just no way I can look at this project that makes sense for where I am determined to go. I can't justify the time, the logistics of developing and owning it; and, final nail in the coffin, the cost.

She's for sale, whole or in pieces. If it doesn't sell, I'll scrap the chassis and sell the motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a shame.

I guess if it no longer gives you what you need/want from it as a project or 'business tool' then it has to go.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can't say I'm surprised, but, damn  On the other hand, you may have already changed your mind again as I'm writing this


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a shame.
> 
> I guess if it no longer gives you what you need/want from it as a project or 'business tool' then it has to go.


I really don't want _any_ personal projects, and the Inhaler is light-years away from my needs for business. I am actually stopping myself from doing what I really want to do, which is get rid of all of it, projects, tools, _everything_ (including Scrape). This is what I started doing five years ago, and got distracted, partly because this electric thing was new, and attractive, and sexy, and fun; and partly because old habits die hard...





JRP3 said:


> Can't say I'm surprised, but, damn  On the other hand, you may have already changed your mind again as I'm writing this


Changes, Mr JRP3, are to make a project fit my needs (which is sometimes just to exercise my creativity) - I don't have a need, in this case, anymore so, as in the case of Schism, the story ends here.

This is the point where we all sit back in our chairs, light up big fat cigars, and one of us says, "Well, that was interesting." (lights fade)


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## Elkanah20 (Nov 14, 2018)

That is looking so close to being strokeable.


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