# Warp Factor III is now Alive!



## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Can't wait to see it run!


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Update?...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Dustin_mud said:


> Update?...


Our first shake down of the Camaro will be June 16, 2012. Team Lithiumaniacs will be racing at Lebanon Valley Dragway.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Waiting on the edge of my seat!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Our first shake down of the Camaro will be June 16, 2012. Team Lithiumaniacs will be racing at Lebanon Valley Dragway.


We had a minor delay with BMS, so no racing on the 16th. Off to the GM Nationals next week, racing on Friday and Sunday.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

What size tires are on the rear?


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

So......?????????


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I hope things went well.


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## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

We need updates


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

I am very satisfied with my elektromotus EMUS BMS. Customer support has been very good, Gintautas has answered all calls and emails when I needed assistance. The company sold me a high quality digital BMS with upgraded features to compensate for my packs high amperage and voltage. I am using the new version v1.8.4 Control Panel http://www.elektromotus.lt/files/EmusBMS_v1.8.4.exeand v1.8.5 firmware to update Control Unit. Works like a charm!


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Does this mean the car is ready for some runs next weekend?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Does this mean the car is ready for some runs next weekend?


It could, but wife's birthday on that Saturday. I will run her in NY on the 21st. Gives me more time to seat the brushes and check for errors. *“Good things come to those who wait”.* No rushing, no mistakes.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

_*Same for all series connections!*_


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## Semper Vivus (Apr 13, 2011)

Don't trust the last digit of a digital multimeter, even if it is a Fluke .

With this setup, your measurement includes the contact resistances between the busbars and the probes.
Draw a constant current of for example 10A through it and measure the voltagedrop. This will give you a much more accurate result!

Kind regards
Tom


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Semper Vivus said:


> Don't trust the last digit of a digital multimeter, even if it is a Fluke .
> 
> With this setup, your measurement includes the contact resistances between the busbars and the probes.
> Draw a constant current of for example 10A through it and measure the voltagedrop. This will give you a much more accurate result!
> ...


yup. better yet, do it a two different current levels.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

If the resistance is 0.1 you are in trouble. The average resistance would be half that meaning 0.05 so the losses in a single connector block will be 3000^2 * 0.05 = 450000 watts of waste heat in every connector block. (Note: It is impossible to have this much resistance and still get to 3000 amps. If the resistance was actually 0.1 ohms per cell then you would be limited to a short circuit current of only 37 amps average) The resistance better be closer to 0.0001 which would give 900 watts of waste heat per side or 1800 watts per cell. Still too much as this is more than a space heater on every cell.

You need to run current from one side of your connector block to the other and measure the voltage drop from a point different than the connection. Divide the voltage drop by the current to get the resistance. Example. You pass 50 amps through the block and read a voltage of 0.005 then the resistance will be 0.0001 ohms. You may have to pass quite a lot of current if your meter doesnt have a millivolt range. The effective resistance will be about half of this because of the way the cells are paralleled.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Finishing touches before hitting the track on the July 21st. 
* EMUS BMS installed working properly.
* All tin complete and sealed.
* Water pump connected.
* Line-Lock connected.
* OD unit installed and wired.
* Seating brushes everyday.
* Installing rear window tomorrow.
* Gauges coming soon!
* Paint coming soon!

I see no problem racing on July 21st.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Semper Vivus said:


> Don't trust the last digit of a digital multimeter, even if it is a Fluke .
> 
> With this setup, your measurement includes the contact resistances between the busbars and the probes.
> Draw a constant current of for example 10A through it and measure the voltagedrop. This will give you a much more accurate result!
> ...


Okay, I took a charge pack of 3.77V discharged at 10amps and the pack dropped to 3.62V ???


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, I took a charge pack of 3.77V discharged at 10amps and the pack dropped to 3.62V ???


I test just one single 3.88v lipo cell and discharged at 10amps on a icharge, the 3.88v dropped to 3.66v ???


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Semper Vivus said:


> Don't trust the last digit of a digital multimeter, even if it is a Fluke .
> 
> With this setup, your measurement includes the contact resistances between the busbars and the probes.


... and the tiny 20awg wire connecting the probes to the meter. If the resistance really was 0.1 ohms, you'd have a 200 volt drop across that connection at 2000 amps.

Looking forward to seeing it run. 










Why are the battery hold downs so loose, is there something that still needs to be installed?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

etischer said:


> ... and the tiny 20awg wire connecting the probes to the meter. If the resistance really was 0.1 ohms, you'd have a 200 volt drop across that connection at 2000 amps.
> 
> Think it's just the meter, I test a solid piece of copper bar, then a solid piece of aluminum bar and received the same resistance number, I am not worried.
> 
> ...


Yes, tube are being installed today. The packs are also glued together, so consider then one solid pack.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)




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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Looking GREAT!!!!! Can't wait to hear what does this beast does on track.......


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

One word, WOW!!!!

Good luck, l;ooks awesome!!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks guys, seated brushes for 10 hours today. Wait till you see the ram air system I am hosing the the motors for cooling, the faster I go the more air on the comm and brushes.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry guys, was ready to hit the track Saturday everyone showing and another delay popped up. It is now being repaired, hopefully hit the track very soon.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Hopefully that just means that it runs perfect the first time! Go break some records!


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## otp57 (Feb 7, 2012)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Sorry guys, was ready to hit the track Saturday everyone showing and another delay popped up. It is now being repaired, hopefully hit the track very soon.


Please how fast did the car run?
What was the current at the fasted speed?
This is one nice starship or is it a car.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks guys! Just getting the kinks out, great video coming soon!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Helwig Brush holders an #49 brushes going in!*


















*All wiring will be external.*


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *Helwig Brush holders an #49 brushes going in!*
> 
> *All wiring will be external.*


Those are nice looking brush holders!

Are you going to advance the timing a little more since you are pulling so many more amps than normal?


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> Those are nice looking brush holders!
> 
> Are you going to advance the timing a little more since you are pulling so many more amps than normal?


It is a racing secret. I may or may not, LOL. I must find the edge when possible. These massive "beefy" holders with 1/0 cable to each holder will allow me to pump more amps/ volts into the motor. 

Tom Brunka at Helwig Carbon has done detailed testing on the Netgain Warp motors and has reduced as many "weak" spots as he can find. These holders have been custom designed by Tom working with George Hamstra. I am also using the 49 brush for racing. I owe them both oodles!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

The Camaro's tunnel which was made of tin, will now be custom designed out of clear lexan to remove any chances of the external wiring of touching. Lexan is approved by the NHRA.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Front brush holders installed, very easy. Moved the first motor forward after disconnecting the coupler (not easy in car). Will install the second set for the rear motor tomorrow. External wiring is going to be a challenge, but I have some good ideas. The large 1/0 wire I am now using to connect each holder will not fit in the bell housing, so they must be external. Tom Brunka (Helwig) gave me some great ideas, the new holders are coated with silver (like my bus bars). 

Pictures soon!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Recognition where it's deserved! As most of you know I am fairly new to electric vehicles (about 3 years) it took many good fellows and hours of reading to learn what was needed to build Warp Factor. I feel a public thanks is in order to all that has helped me. 

John, Thomas Cook, and Luke Workman for their knowledge and advice in building my first battery pack.

George Hamstra, Dennis Berube and Tom Brunka for their "tricks in the trade" in motor technology.

Sebastien and Jeff from EVNetics for all their support in the controller support.

Jack Rickard for keeping EVTV going and EVCCON.

Steve Clunn and Paul Liddle for all their help in Florida.

Douglas Stansfield for all his help with starting ECEDRA.

Shawn Lawless and Jeff Disinger for EV Drag Racing support.

DIY EV FORUM members for advice and support.

I will be adding to the list I am sure I forgot a few.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Hurry up Ron, you're running out of summer! I'm seeing Back To School ads already. Yuck!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Hurry up Ron, you're running out of summer! I'm seeing Back To School ads already. Yuck!


Like fine wine, it takes time! 

Still have Aug, Sept, Oct, and possibly Nov. Plenty of time to set records!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry guys, no results yet. I had to fire one of my drivers so I have been driving one of my rigs to complete jobs. I left next Saturday open for racing.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Sorry guys, no results yet. I had to fire one of my drivers so I have been driving one of my rigs to complete jobs. I left next Saturday open for racing.


If only you could hire a successful business owner to drive. They get it.

Shred some tires and track next week! BTW, if you end up in orbit honk on your way over and I'll wave.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

It always hits the fan around August because of the heat, out with the old in with the new. I placed an ad for drivers and within one hour 25 CDL drivers looking for work. I guess the economy is still in the shitter. Looks like a go for next Saturday! 



GizmoEV said:


> If only you could hire a successful business owner to drive. They get it.
> 
> Shred some tires and track next week! BTW, if you end up in orbit honk on your way over and I'll wave.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Looks like a go for next Saturday!


Don't forget to install the re-entry shields!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry guys, Camaro is ready, could have raced today, but my father passed away on Thursday. Will try to race next Saturday in his honor.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Really Sorry to hear about your father. I will put your family in our prayers.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

My condolences Ron


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you all, it's been a rough 2012.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

My condolences, Ron.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

My condolences Ron.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you all, my father is now at peace with my mother.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Okay, testing has started. He have run Warp Factor III on our dyno in an simulated 1/4 mile. Don't want to give specifics yet until we hit the track, but our run was in the 8's. Will try to bring it to the track this Saturday if the rain holds out. 

I will say each Shiva settings were:

1500BA each
2000MA each
190 volts to each motor

Very little strain on pack, feel we can run much higher settings.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Okay, testing has started. He have run Warp Factor III on our dyno in an simulated 1/4 mile. Don't want to give specifics yet until we hit the track, but our run was in the 8's. Will try to bring it to the track this Saturday if the rain holds out.
> 
> I will say each Shiva settings were:
> 
> ...


Freaking Insane Ron! Can't wait to see the results! Thank you for always pushing the envelope!

Also for please accept my condolences on your Father's passing.

He's routing you on from above!!!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

If the stars stay in my favor, it looks like Warp Factor III will be racing at Lebanon Valley Dragway in NY on 8-25-12. If this changes I will post it.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Seated the Helwig #49 brushes today for 8 hours. Everything connected and working! Weather looks good for Saturday, Warp Factor III meet Lebanon Valley Dragway! 9am to 3pm racing all day.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

If anyone is in the NY area with a video recorder please stop by Lebanon Valley Dragway. Big Jim, normally tapes all our runs, but he is very sick in the hospital. Will try to have one of my crew tape the runs, but they will be busy with me on the line.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

If you are seriously thinking you are going to be solidly into sub 10 second territory you really really need lots of really good video coverage.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> If you are seriously thinking you are going to be solidly into sub 10 second territory you really really need lots of really good video coverage.


Oh, we are definitely going into the sub 10 second territory. Will try to get video and data.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

This sport/hobby of EV racing has really really poor publicity. Right now EV's are breaking into new ground and matching or beating high level ICE vehicles but haven't been on the media radar long enough to get the media to foot the bill for a camera crew to follow the EVs around. I keep waiting for one of the EV race teams to take outrageous amounts of high quality footage and put together a decent video and use the free media outlets to promote the cause. EV West is doing the best so far, but it could be better.

Ron-best of luck this weekend, I look forward to the results!


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> This sport/hobby of EV racing has really really poor publicity. Right now EV's are breaking into new ground and matching or beating high level ICE vehicles but haven't been on the media radar long enough to get the media to foot the bill for a camera crew to follow the EVs around. I keep waiting for one of the EV race teams to take outrageous amounts of high quality footage and put together a decent video and use the free media outlets to promote the cause. EV West is doing the best so far, but it could be better.
> 
> Ron-best of luck this weekend, I look forward to the results!


I agree, the problem is funding. Hiring a professional film crew costs some ducks, my business is down 75% because of the real estate market. The car still needs paint, artwork, etc....it has just enough to pass tech and race. Hopefully after I lay down some serious numbers some additional sponsors will step up. I am hoping the housing market will change after the election.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> I agree, the problem is funding. Hiring a professional film crew costs some ducks, my business is down 75% because of the real estate market. The car still needs paint, artwork, etc....it has just enough to pass tech and race. Hopefully after I lay down some serious numbers some additional sponsors will step up. I am hoping the housing market will change after the election.


Best publicity is free. Very cost effective. If you have any sponsors at all, even minor ones, that advertise in magazines, discuss with them about getting an article.

Here's how it works: Three of my sponsors advertise a lot in magazines. They call the editor, and say, "I'm a good advertiser, and I think I have a good project that would make an interesting article." They often jump at the idea. We've even got the cover shot on a magazine for free, and a few multi-page articles. Didn't cost us a dime.

This in turn can attract more sponsors. We picked up Garrett Turbochargers that way. $12,000 worth of free turbos, and were featured on their website. Dunno if we still are though.

Eh. Minor listing now. Look at page 3 for McRat: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sponsored_vehicles


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

McRat said:


> Best publicity is free. Very cost effective. If you have any sponsors at all, even minor ones, that advertise in magazines, discuss with them about getting an article.
> 
> Here's how it works: Three of my sponsors advertise a lot in magazines. They call the editor, and say, "I'm a good advertiser, and I think I have a good project that would make an interesting article." They often jump at the idea. We've even got the cover shot on a magazine for free, and a few multi-page articles. Didn't cost us a dime.
> 
> ...


There's some good advice right there. . . and talking from experience.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Good video equipment is getting cheap. Pick up a couple of GoPro cams, get a couple of buddies with high def video cameras, get some film students looking for a project. You basically need good enough footage that you can make enough decent internet videos now and have high quality enough stuff for people to use when talking about you in the future.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

How about an old Sony Cyber-shot with video? LOL

Few last minute parts to install tomorrow, all looks good ready for Saturday!


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Lol-even an "artists rendering" like the Enquirer used to use when I was a kid would be fine. Hell, for my personal curiosity what I really want to see is the Shiva log files and the time slip. 

Best of luck tomorrow.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Totally unrelated, don't use a mini-DVD or HDD camera. You'll lose about 1/2 your action shots, and the vibrations screws up the write operation.

The GoPro is a good choice. I have one, and everyone I know with one is happy.

This is mini-DVD on a rollcage mount (we lost over 1/2 the footage though):

http://youtu.be/-ygZkwsnpSA

I'll see if I can find some of our GoPro.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, just returned from the track. Good day of testing, completed two shake-down runs. Track was swamped today with Gamblers, etc....Only problem is no data, the wire was too short would not reach the computer, will have data on next test.

Results:

Test #1:
1500 BA (each controller)
2000 MA
190 Motor Volts
(Pack was at 230V.)

Time: 60' 1.5 seconds, 1/8 6.6 seconds, 1/4 10.6 @121.36 mph
_____________________________________________________

Test #2:
2000 BA (each controller)
2000 MA
200 Motor Volts
(Pack was at 230V)

Time: 60' 1.4 seconds, 1/8 6.5 seconds, 1/4 10.4 @123.83 mph


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Additional test day information:

Battery only dropped about 7 volts per run. Cell temp remained under 50c. No sparks from motors or brushes. Controllers worked flawless (I think, no data). 

Car developed a clunk in rear diff, will check ring and pinion. Might also change front springs.

Wish I could have tested at full power, but not enough time and very very very HOT day!


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Congrats!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Congrats on successful runs with nice times! Will be interesting to see what happens when you start to dial it up.

"Doh!" about the data. I'd LOVE to see the data dump from the Shivas in action...


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15emKFfbCns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzZDQULKd5g


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Expecting to bring it up to 3,000 amps next time Ron, or do you have more testing to do before that? Any idea when your next outing will be?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Awesome for shake down runs.... u should feel good about the potential.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Great start to what will be an epic dragster Ron! Thank you for constantly pushing the limits of DC technology!

How much does the Camaro weigh again?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> Great start to what will be an epic _(dragster_) drag car Ron! Thank you for constantly pushing the limits of DC technology!
> 
> How much does the Camaro weigh again?


Thank you all! We start working on drag car tomorrow, have been very busy trying to save my business. Once I check the rear diff I will bring the car back to the dyno and get data. Depending on what the data tells, most likely will have to add voltage.

When I bring the car back to the track the settings will be:

2000 BA to each controller.
258V pack.
3000 MA to each motor.
220V to each motor.

We should hit the 9's with these settings. Still might have to play with the rear gear ratio, started with a 3.00 this year compared to a 3.25 last year.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Getting the Camaro ready for EVCCON 2012, it's going to be a blast!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

New QA1 front springs going in for EVCCON, along with a new driveshaft.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Data from one Shiva. 
Set-up is two Shiva's, two Warp Motors, one sagging 4000amp battery pack @ 230V. Settings were set for 2000BA per controller, 2000MA per motor @ 200V.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Is this from a dyno run or did they set up a drag strip at EVCCON?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Is this from a dyno run or did they set up a drag strip at EVCCON?


The data was recorded during the drag race, let off before 1/4 mile to slow down in time.

I know why I am stuck at 10.2 seconds in the 1/4 mile, it's the sag which dropped my voltage down to 113V from a 230V pack. I think adding cells in series will lower my 1/4 mile ET, hopefully into the 9's.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Ouch, that is quite a bit of sag.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Ouch, that is quite a bit of sag.


Yes, I was a little disappointed in the large sag, but I was pulling 4000BA. I am curious if anyone has data from any brand pack pulling 4000BA what sags did they reach, another words is there a better battery that can hold 4000amps with less sag?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Do you know if Bill Bube or one of the other drag racers have data on their packs. I may be wrong, but it seems like you could do a sag vs C rate comparison to get an idea of how other batteries would perform. Also, what about a test on a single cell with an equivalent C rate. This would give you an estimate of how much sag is due to the connections and wiring.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Yes, I was a little disappointed in the large sag, but I was pulling 4000BA. I am curious if anyone has data from any brand pack pulling 4000BA what sags did they reach, another words is there a better battery that can hold 4000amps with less sag?


4000 amps and 117V drop equates to 468 kW of loss due to battery system impedance... have you tried observing your battery pack(s) with a thermal imager to see what is getting hottest?


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

0.00047 ohms internal resistance per cell isn't too bad if you have a 62 cell pack. Bump up the voltage and get the duty cycle down, even a little rest will help the cells, and keep being a spectacle.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Videos from EVCCON 2012

http://blog.evtv.me/2012/10/denouement/


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I am building two more modules quickly to get our total volts up to 296V, then hit Lebanon Valley Dragway before the season is over. Hoping to hit the 9's this year. 

During the winter I will add one extra 400amp cell to each 10P to help with sag and create 4400amp cells. We will also go higher in series, over 300volts.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I get boosting the voltage, but isn't adding 1 cell in parallel a lot of work for not much gain?


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I get boosting the voltage, but isn't adding 1 cell in parallel a lot of work for not much gain?


Wont that be in the range of 5-7Kw more power after the sag? Every bit counts. I don't know what the decrease in time will be but I want to see Ron break into the 9s. I just wish I could be there to watch.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Until the controller's maxed out, there's no power difference between adding in series vs parallel. Making half a dozen new bricks seems far easier than taking every brick apart to add one cell to it.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Guys, thanks for all the input. Adding one cell in parallel will reduce some of the sag, then adding more in series will seal the deal. My 10P packs modules and remove easily, all I need to do is unbolt the cells, remove, and add the cell in parallel. Not that hard to do, but for now I will just add voltage to get back to the track. 

I have a whole new design for my cells, which will happen over the winter. Each 11P will be turned sideways, the series connection moved to the center.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I agree that breaking open the pack just to go from 10p to 11p sounds like a lot of work for little gain; you would need to at least go to 15p (to deliver 6kA with the same sag) to make the effort worthwhile.


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## dochiller1 (Feb 7, 2012)

*Ron you have a lot of room for more voltage in the controllers.* *Easier to add the extra string of cell you said you head at evccon. *


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

dochiller1 said:


> *Ron you have a lot of room for more voltage in the controllers.* *Easier to add the extra string of cell you said you head at evccon. *


Yes, I have plenty of room for additional modules. Some in the front pack can be rebuilt larger, and I have room for two large modules in the rear. 

I have just drilled, cleaned, and prepped 7 10P packs to finish one 28V module. I will keep building right up to my next race day on 10-20-12 at Lebanon Valley Dragway. Hopefully I add enough to break into the 9's.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Team Lithiumaniacs EV Racing "*Warp Factor III*" is proud to announce *EVTV.ME *as one of our new sponsors for the 2013 Electric Drag Racing Series. Thank you Jack Rickard.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Yes, I was a little disappointed in the large sag, but I was pulling 4000BA. I am curious if anyone has data from any brand pack pulling 4000BA what sags did they reach, another words is there a better battery that can hold 4000amps with less sag?


I have very similar sag with my set up at 211 volt nominal running LiFe. Do you have a shunt on the battery side Ron? I suspect that even though your motor amps reached 2000 each, I doubt your battery was actually dishing out 4000 amps at that time. I have a shunt on mine and it reaches about 2000 battery amps peak when dishing out a full 3000 motor amps. 
All of this doesn't change anything related to your challenge of stiffening the pack and going faster. I would agree though, that adding series voltage will make a huge difference and allow you to push higher current for much longer . . . and further down the track.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I have very similar sag with my set up at 211 volt nominal running LiFe. Do you have a shunt on the battery side Ron? I suspect that even though your motor amps reached 2000 each, I doubt your battery was actually dishing out 4000 amps at that time. I have a shunt on mine and it reaches about 2000 battery amps peak when dishing out a full 3000 motor amps. ....


He just provided me with data fron one of the two Shivas, and in that log file it does, indeed, show battery current hitting 2000A. For example, here is motor current, duty cycle and battery voltage from one log entry:

2073 100.00 119

Since duty is 100% motor current = battery current = 2073A.

I'll admit that the two controllers might not draw exactly the same battery current, but any mismatch is likely going to be 1-2% at most; say +/- 20-40A.

So, yeah, he's basically pulling 4kA from the pack and it is sagging just about in half, or to the maximum power point possible.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I hope you get a chance to hit the track on the 20th, like planned. We've been hit by a cold snap here in the midwest.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

All looks good for the next race.

In regards to data and my pack voltage, I never fully charged the pack, I was leaving some "wiggle" room for BMS error. My pack had 58S 10P, fully charged is 243.60 Volts. When we logged data my pack was only charged to 225V, that's an average of 3.88V a cell. I will fully charge before my next run. If I add 11 more 10P in series that would bring the pack to 69S 10P, fully charged 289.80 Volts. 

I will try to add more than 11S, but time is short and it takes days to prep and build these 10P cells.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> ... If I add 11 more 10P in series that would bring the pack to 69S 10P, fully charged 289.80 Volts. ....


Each 10p module will deliver a peak power of ~7.8kW (~10.5hp) based on it sagging down to 1.95V at 4000A.

Adding 11 more 10p modules in series should bump up your peak power from 452kW to 538kW, then.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Each 10p module will deliver a peak power of ~7.8kW ... Adding 11 more 10p modules in series should bump up your peak power from 452kW to 538kW, then.


10p here, another 10p there, pretty soon you're starting to talk real power


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I've remained quite in Ron's threads, other than occasional atta-boys, and thumb-ups, because we don't normally mix well, and it ends up being a distraction to what could be productive conversations for others. I have a question I have to ask though, so (tiptoeing)... Let me preface my question with - I am not trying to stir the pot, no instigating, not being critical - I just don't understand something I just read, and am seeking clarification/understanding.



Tesseract said:


> ...Adding 11 more 10p modules in series should bump up your _*peak power from 452kW to 538kW*_, then.


There are two 1.2MW controllers, feeding two race-prepped motors, from a ~.5MW pack?  Or, am I missing some info or facts?

Again, just trying to understand...


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I've remained quite in Ron's threads, other than occasional atta-boys, and thumb-ups, because we don't normally mix well, and it ends up being a distraction to what could be productive conversations for others. I have a question I have to ask though, so (tiptoeing)... Let me preface my question with - I am not trying to stir the pot, no instigating, not being critical - I just don't understand something I just read, and am seeking clarification/understanding.
> 
> 
> There are two 1.2MW controllers, feeding two race-prepped motors, from a ~.5MW pack?  Or, am I missing some info or facts?
> ...


Todd, glad you tuned in. Yes, the problem is the pack, I am trying to build as fast as I can. The controllers may be 1.2MW each, but the motors can only handle 3000amps @ 240volts max, and that's pushing it. 
I will bring the pack up to 400V, but this will not happen till winter.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ... I just don't understand something I just read, and am seeking clarification/understanding.
> 
> There are two 1.2MW controllers, feeding two race-prepped motors, from a ~.5MW pack?  Or, am I missing some info or facts?
> ...


Yep, your understanding is correct. Even the augmented pack will be less than half as powerful as a single Shiva, much less two of the beasts. The augmented pack will be closer to what I estimate is the peak power rating of the two 11" motors, however. 

That said, my understanding of the rationale for using two Shivas was to be able to put 3000A through each 11" motor at launch. This lowers the 60' time which I am given to understand is most critical for reducing the ET? Dunno, I'm no drag racer...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Todd, glad you tuned in. Yes, the problem is the pack, I am trying to build as fast as I can. The controllers may be 1.2MW each, but the motors can only handle 3000amps @ 240volts max, and that's pushing it.
> I will bring the pack up to 400V, but this will not happen till winter.





Tesseract said:


> Yep, your understanding is correct. Even the augmented pack will be less than half as powerful as a single Shiva, much less two of the beasts. The augmented pack will be closer to what I estimate is the peak power rating of the two 11" motors, however...


Thanks guys. I just didn't know if I was reading it wrong, had missed something, or maybe just jumping in on the tail-end of a broader conversation.





Tesseract said:


> ...That said, my understanding of the rationale for using two Shivas was to be able to put 3000A through each 11" motor at launch. This lowers the 60' time which I am given to understand is most critical for reducing the ET? Dunno, I'm no drag racer...


That is indeed a critical aspect of drag racing. I wish I had been able to attend EVCCON (sp?) because more in-depth discussion requires face time over burgers and beer. I've proven, quite well, that I don't do an effective job of communicating in forums - outside of my carefully planned and staged threads.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I first built this pack with a limit of 230V to match last year pack and compare times between a Shiva and a Zilla. Now, knowing the weak link in my drag car, I can move forward with a much more powerful pack.

Running a 10.2 1/4 mile with such a small pack put's a smile on my face, makes the 9's look easy once the full pack is in place.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

GeoMetric said:


> I first built this pack with a limit of 230V to match last year pack and compare times between a Shiva and a Zilla. Now, knowing the weak link in my drag car, I can move forward with a much more powerful pack.
> 
> Running a 10.2 1/4 mile with such a small pack put's a smile on my face, makes the 9's look easy once the full pack is in place.


I have a feeling you'll find some more weak spots once you get that beast up to full power, but that's the nature of drag racing. More power until something turns into a pile of twisted metal. Replace it with something more powerful. Turn something else further down the line into a pile of twisted metal. Etc. etc. I can't wait to see that thing pumping out all the power those controllers are capable of.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Ron, weren't these cells supposed to be able to supply these kind of amps without this much sag, according to specs from the company(and your own testing, if I remember correctly)? Is it possible you got a bad batch?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Ron, weren't these cells supposed to be able to supply these kind of amps without this much sag, according to specs from the company(and your own testing, if I remember correctly)? Is it possible you got a bad batch?


The data charts I published showed at 400amps each they would sag to about 2 volts. I think some of the sag was due to my connection method, I will be rebuilding the pack this winter. All my cells charge properly and do not run hot, so they are fine.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

jeremyjs said:


> I have a feeling you'll find some more weak spots once you get that beast up to full power, but that's the nature of drag racing. More power until something turns into a pile of twisted metal. Replace it with something more powerful. Turn something else further down the line into a pile of twisted metal. Etc. etc. I can't wait to see that thing pumping out all the power those controllers are capable of.


Well, it's possible, but I think I covered all the other angles. New larger Moser axles, spool, ring & pinion. New larger driveshaft. Chrome moly 12 point roll cage, extra supports throughout the car. Competition moly wheelie bars, etc...


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Awesome!!!


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## Ams_AK (Jan 24, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


>



Hey Ron, I can do you one better than that picture.. Check this out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfP_bjKBiXw&hd=1


'sbout time someone comes and puts up a fight for 2013


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Ams_AK said:


> Hey Ron, I can do you one better than that picture.. Check this out:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfP_bjKBiXw&hd=1
> ...


Awesome Thank You!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfBftkrBvE0&feature=plcp

New Video!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Added more cells in series today, what a pain in the azz. Building modules is not an easy task.

Leaving for Lebanon Valley Dragway 6am to race "Warp Factor III" with a new 4000amp 260V pack. About 30 more volts from the new module. Looking for the 9's before the snow!


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Good Luck Ron... I'd like to see you get into the 9's...


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Good and bad results in our runs today at Lebanon Valley Dragway.

The car launched strong 1.3 60' time, but slipped when shifted with GearVendors OD unit. I think the OD unit is burnt, clutches slipped and I lost top end. I hit the OD solenoid button and nada, 3 seconds later soft shift. Must be cooked. 

Our 2012 season is done. All cells will be removed and checked. Pack rebuilt with different specs. OD unit removed and inspected for damage. Here are some video's:

http://youtu.be/qyApVO8YSqE

http://youtu.be/vOchqj0qG7g

http://youtu.be/qyApVO8YSqE


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> I have a feeling you'll find some more weak spots once you get that beast up to full power, but that's the nature of drag racing. More power until something turns into a pile of twisted metal....


Prophetic words...



GeoMetric said:


> The car launched strong 1.3 60' time, but slipped when shifted with GearVendors OD unit. I think the OD unit is burnt...


Sounds like you weren't able to get a single good run in, correct? No log files, either, I presume?

Also, the 1st and 3rd links point to the same video...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> ...but that's the nature of drag racing. More power until something turns into a pile of twisted metal. Replace it with something more powerful. Turn something else further down the line into a pile of twisted metal...





Tesseract said:


> Prophetic words...


I've been enjoying you guys making statements like that for a couple years now, but it's not really accurate. Only the Pro classes of drag racing are based on that formula. Most drag racers can't afford to live like that, and even some of the Pros can't keep pace. An overwhelming majority of drag racers actually make it a habit to NOT break stuff. A part of that "legacy" comes from the 8,000hp Top Fuel and Funny Car classes where you haven't really raced unless you've purposely broken something going down the track - friction-welding the clutch, at a bare minimum. The other big part of it comes from the spectacular nature in which drag race vehicles break parts. Road racers probably break just as much stuff as the average drag racer, but because drag racers load so much energy into such a short time period the parts fail with "flare". A well-built drag race vehicle will run an entire season, without any serious failures, and usually the parts that were eventually going to fail are found in the post season tear down and rebuild.

As for EV drag racers, most of the failures are coming from the nature of EV enthusiasts. This whole movement has a "habit" of going against the grain. Not counting the current crop of purpose-built EV drag cars, most of the failures I saw in the last couple years here were from people trying to use street car parts in a torturous drag racing environment - of course stuff is going to break. Even Ron's GV meltdown kind of fits in that category - he's building what is essentially a ProStock car and using a part no Pro race team has ever thoroughly tested. I would bet money that a Lenco used for the same purpose wouldn't fail - or at least very rarely. When he gets his combination sorted out and dialed in, he should be able to run an entire season will very little trouble - getting faster the whole season. That's because you build a foundation for the performance you want to achieve, and work your way up to it. I'm not really sure what components Ron has in his car, but if it's built to Top Sportsman or Pro Stock standards, he shouldn't be able to break anything.

Yes, I am taking into account the famed full-torque-from-zero aspect of EVs. I happen to think it's actually easier on parts than winding a pulsating ICE up to thousands of RPMs and dumping that power onto the drivetrain.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I've been enjoying you guys making statements like that for a couple years now, but it's not really accurate.
> ...
> Even Ron's GV meltdown kind of fits in that category - he's building what is essentially a ProStock car and *using a part no Pro race team has ever thoroughly tested.* ...


The sentence I put in bold is exactly why I (and others) keep saying that EV racing is often an exercise in finding the next weak link in the drivetrain. Sometimes it's the batteries, sometimes it's the motors and sometimes it's the transmission...

That failures occur in EV racing is not so much the result of the massive torque they have on tap all the way down to zero RPM, rather, it's more because nobody is quite sure what drivetrain parts to use to get the most out of the EV-specific components that can be purchased today (or, perhaps, in the not-too-distant future).

EV racing is very much still in the "finding out what works and what doesn't" phase of its evolution. It doesn't make sense to use the same drivetrain parts in an EV - even a purpose-built draster like Ron's Camaro - as would be appropriate for an 8000hp Top Fuel dragster, but "stock" components rarely cut the mustard, here, either.

It makes it more interesting because creativity and ingenuity still count for something, rather than the size of one's racing budget.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The sentence I put in bold is exactly why I (and others) keep saying that EV racing is often an exercise in finding the next weak link in the drivetrain...
> 
> ...It doesn't make sense to use the same drivetrain parts in an EV - even a purpose-built draster like Ron's Camaro - as would be appropriate for an 8000hp Top Fuel dragster, but "stock" components rarely cut the mustard, here, either...


My point is those parts are well-defined in conventional drag racing. Recreating the wheel is not an efficient use of resources either. Ron has done that already, his car is built with conventional drag racing parts, for the levels of power and performance he seeks. The only thing that wasn't, from what I remember, is the GV. They give a generic 1200+ hp rating, but I haven't seen an indication of how much torque they'll handle for how long. It's not too difficult to take an educated guess at how much torque 4000 amps through two purpose-built WarP 11s is going to produce - especially when that current is being delivered by you guys in your unrelenting "constant" standard, not the typical EV controller standard of a matter of seconds. 1200hp is in the range of a Sportsman class musclecar, or maybe mid-eight-second quarter-mile performance (again cars that typically run a whole season without breaking shit). However Ron will have significantly more torque than they have, theoretically for a longer period of time, so he has to have components that will withstand more "abuse" than their cars will. He may not run Pro Stock ETs, but he _might_ put Pro Stock levels of stress on the chassis and drivetrain, so the car should be built to those specs (whatever they are - just using Pro Stock as an example, not a definitive conclusion).

I'm not saying what his car will or will not do, I'm trying to make the point that in drag racing, as with most forms of racing, you build the foundation to support the performance you desire. It's not hard to figure out what type of performance an EV drivetrain is capable of, in theory at least. The parts exist already, until EVs exceed Top Fuel power levels and performance, so the need to waste time and money experimenting with (breaking) lesser parts is... a waste of time and money.






Tesseract said:


> ...It makes it more interesting because creativity and ingenuity still count for something, rather than the size of one's racing budget.


It should be obvious that I'm all for that, but I am also not fond of unnecessarily wasting my tiny budget confirming things others have already proven.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> My point is those parts are well-defined in conventional drag racing.


Right. I get your point. In this particular instance the part that broke is a mechanical one and therefore could have been chosen with more precision, whereas I was mainly arguing that the stuff that often blows up in electric race vehicles is the EV-specific stuff. Batteries, motors, chargers, and, even the controller on occasion.

Of course there are times when the electric drivetrain munches something which *shouldn't* have broken, but maybe the manufacturer wasn't too accurate, shall we say, with their performance claims. For example, we were unable to exceed ~2400A of motor current when testing the Shiva in our 911 because the super duper 4-puck racing clutch supposedly rated for 650 lb-ft of torque kept slipping. The only problem is that with the twin WarP-9s in the 911 wired in parallel the maximum torque expected would be ~550 lb-ft. Maybe if this was an ICE we'd just assume our engine was even more powerful than we expected, but within an EV if you know the motor current then you know how much torque you are dishing out with fair accuracy (+/-5% or so). 

And that may be what happened here - an overly optimistic rating for the GV unit. Then again, when you turn the motor current ramp rate in our controllers up to the maximum of 25kA per second that means you hit 2500A (and therefore ~800 lb-ft of torque from the WarP-11) in one-tenth of a second. That kind of shock loading is brutal on stuff I hear...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> [snip] when you turn the motor current ramp rate in our controllers up to the maximum of 25kA per second that means you hit 2500A (and therefore ~800 lb-ft of torque from the WarP-11) in one-tenth of a second. That kind of shock loading is brutal on stuff I hear...


Nah, the metal parts LOVE it! Think of it as shock peening. It's GOOD for them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Now that we've adequately highjacked this thread, ditch the GV Ron - get a Lenco.  It's not worth the frustration of trying to make a street/mild race part survive in your environment.

Good luck next season!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> Now that we've adequately highjacked this thread, ditch the GV Ron - get a Lenco.  It's not worth the frustration of trying to make a street/mild race part survive in your environment.
> 
> Good luck next season!


It would make no sense to install a Lenco unless I lowered the rear gear ration to 2.73 or something lower, and they do not make competition ring and pinions in that ratio. We are trying to lower the rpm as we race, a Lenco would do just the opposite.

I think I will go direct drive with a 15P 425V pack! I think I can push my motors to 240+V.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

*The new 15P design!*


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

The plan is to use less bus bars to save weight. I will bolt together two bus bars, drill and tap from the top to connect the series bar. Will have fun all winter.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Edit: I stand corrected. Ron is right, I got my facts confused. I was thinking of quick change rear ends, which allow you get down under 2:1.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

There are quite a few guys running GV successfully. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn it. When I ordered mine new, I had them specifically tweak it for this application. I actually don't like the way it shifts during normal driving. It bangs pretty hard. When accelerating hard, it shifts just fine tho.
One thing that will burn it out pretty quickly is starting off in second gear with a good bit of throttle. It needs rpm in order to generate enough pressure to shift. They do warn of this issue. This is why they don't recommend running one without the little shift controller. This box ensures it shifts back to first. I know most racers don't use one. . .just sayin' this may be your issue. 
My GV is probably taking a good beating at 3000 amps with my 13" motor trying to move a 4200 lb truck. Well, it was enough to break my drive shaft anyways. (which in turn beat up my battery boxes).


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> It would make no sense to install a Lenco unless I lowered the rear gear ration to 2.73 or something lower, and they do not make competition ring and pinions in that ratio. We are trying to lower the rpm as we race, a Lenco would do just the opposite.
> 
> I think I will go direct drive with a 15P 425V pack! I think I can push my motors to 240+V.


FWIW, the guys at Lenco think they may be able to run one of their units backwards, meaning overdriving as opposed to under-driving. You can check into that if you want to change ur set up. (that would make Todd's comment right on!  )


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

http://www.gearvendors.com/testimonials.html
http://www.gearvendors.com/racing.html

Note the comment saying . . . 
"The product is ideally suited in stock form for cars with 1200hp or less and in this case is virtually indestructible, literally running for seasons of use without maintenance other than fluid. Cars with more than 1200+ horsepower can be accommodated but you should call the factory so hydraulic issues dealing with clutch ramp timing can be properly adjusted for your application weight and hp."

The comment about not being evaluated by a race team may be a bit off....


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> There are quite a few guys running GV successfully. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn it. When I ordered mine new, I had them specifically tweak it for this application. I actually don't like the way it shifts during normal driving. It bangs pretty hard. When accelerating hard, it shifts just fine tho.
> One thing that will burn it out pretty quickly is starting off in second gear with a good bit of throttle. It needs rpm in order to generate enough pressure to shift. They do warn of this issue. This is why they don't recommend running one without the little shift controller. This box ensures it shifts back to first. I know most racers don't use one. . .just sayin' this may be your issue.
> My GV is probably taking a good beating at 3000 amps with my 13" motor trying to move a 4200 lb truck. Well, it was enough to break my drive shaft anyways. (which in turn beat up my battery boxes).


That could be why I cooked the GV. I lowered my ring & pinion to 3.00, so the rpm's are lower than last years set-up. It might be the lower rpm could not create enough pressure to maintain a solid. hard shift. The fluid is cooked so I know the clutches are burnt.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I just received results from a professional battery building shop on my cells. So far he test 257amps and the cell dropped to 3.3 volts. He will give me the 400amp test results next week.

Using that results, if I built my pack to:

14P = 3598 @ 3.3 volts at sag.
15P = 3855 @ 3.3 volts at sag.

Next years pack options:

15P 101S = 3855 amps @ 333 volts at full sag.

But the Warp 11" can only hold about 240v to 260v max.

15P 80S = 3855 amps @ 264 volts at full sag.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Reading the GearVendors website, I think my 3.00 gear ratio is too low, not enough rpm's to build the pressure needed for a solid shift.

"*Cars* — virtually any car that does not have a factory overdrive gear is going to gain 22-28% typically by adding the *GEAR VENDORS OVERDRIVE*. Exceptions would be a car with say an unusually tall diff gear like say 2.73 where the engine really is quite low in rpm at cruise already. But for all us performance guys who run *3.42 to 4.10s* you are looking at something near 25% gain in mpg at highway speeds. If your car has forced induction (supercharger) plan on even bigger gains — not uncommon for blown car to get 100% better fuel economy with the *GEAR VENDORS* simply because the overdrive is also slowing down the blower, plus reducing heat internally in the blowers charge area."

http://www.gearvendors.com/faq.html


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## bakes (Jun 15, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> Reading the GearVendors website, I think my 3.00 gear ratio is too low, not enough rpm's to build the pressure needed for a solid shift.
> 
> "*Cars* — virtually any car that does not have a factory overdrive gear is going to gain 22-28% typically by adding the *GEAR VENDORS OVERDRIVE*. Exceptions would be a car with say an unusually tall diff gear like say 2.73 where the engine really is quite low in rpm at cruise already. But for all us performance guys who run *3.42 to 4.10s* you are looking at something near 25% gain in mpg at highway speeds. If your car has forced induction (supercharger) plan on even bigger gains — not uncommon for blown car to get 100% better fuel economy with the *GEAR VENDORS* simply because the overdrive is also slowing down the blower, plus reducing heat internally in the blowers charge area."
> 
> http://www.gearvendors.com/faq.html


 
What about running Co2 to make the preasure for the shift??


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello Ron



GeoMetric said:


> Next years pack options:
> 
> 15P 101S = 3855 amps @ 333 volts at full sag.
> 
> ...


I'll let Jeff jump in and set the record straight but the Shiva can set the motor side voltage to whatever you need it. So you can run 425V on the battery side and keep the motor to 250V @ full current with reduced sag, if any at all. Jeff?

JR


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hello Ron
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As often said: "It's complicated". 

If you don't go over maximum battery current or maximum power and as long as the temperature stay low enough and so on for all other settings/limits, then yes, you can set the motor voltage to 250 Volt and get it as long as the battery voltage stays above.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> ...
> 15P 101S = 3855 amps @ 333 volts at full sag.
> 
> But the Warp 11" can only hold about 240v to 260v max.
> ...


A 101s LiPo pack might be at too high of a voltage when fresh off the charger; the Shiva was designed to accommodate a 100s LiPo pack *max*. That said, there is little sense in running so high of a pack voltage for standard WarP-11 motors, anyway. Yes, you can set the maximum voltage seen by the motor with any of the Soliton controllers (assuming, as Qer pointed out, that no other limiting functions like battery current, battery voltage, controller temperature are in effect), but that is basically the same thing as not using some of your pack's capacity.

In other words, a 101s LiPo pack will be at such a high voltage that even when sagging down by half it will still be too much for a WarP motor. And speaking of, where did you get the idea the WarP-11 can take 240-260V at the same time as you are pushing 2000-3000A through it? Serious question, as my understanding is that 190V is a pretty hard limit for any of the standard (non-interpoled) WarP motors (its just the current they can take at the same time that goes up with frame size).

So a 15p80s pack would be a better match for the WarP motors, voltage-wise, but I still like my previous suggestion that you just build another pack identical to the first one and then feed each Shiva separately.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Reading the GearVendors website, I think my 3.00 gear ratio is too low, not enough rpm's to build the pressure needed for a solid shift.
> 
> http://www.gearvendors.com/faq.html



Actually Ron, it's not a problem once you are moving above about 20 mph. The problem comes if u nail it from a stop (or perhaps 15mph or less) in second gear. This causes slippage and burning the clutches. My comment was based on the possibility that this has happened in the past and caused you the issue at higher speeds due to previous damage. 

Did you have your unit specially built for this application/car? . . . or did you buy an off-the-shelf unit? If it is set up right, it will outlast most of the other components in your car. If some guy can run one behind a blown Keith Black 2500 hp hemi for years, yours should last you more than a dozen runs.

You should also verify that the shift solenoid is working properly.

What I would suggest was install a small light in the dash that represents first gear. This is what I did. That way, you know at a glance what gear you are in. Otherwise, it is impossible to know if using a pushbutton type of switch.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> Actually Ron, it's not a problem once you are moving above about 20 mph. The problem comes if u nail it from a stop (or perhaps 15mph or less) in second gear. This causes slippage and burning the clutches. My comment was based on the possibility that this has happened in the past and caused you the issue at higher speeds due to previous damage.
> 
> Did you have your unit specially built for this application/car? . . . or did you buy an off-the-shelf unit? If it is set up right, it will outlast most of the other components in your car. If some guy can run one behind a blown Keith Black 2500 hp hemi for years, yours should last you more than a dozen runs.
> 
> ...


The shift does not depend on mph, it depends on rpm at motor. Some set-ups can get 20mph at 1500rpm, some at 3000rpm, it all depends on the ring & pinion. The main issue is the motor rpm's needs to be above 3000 to get a solid hard shift. Remember two 11" Warp motors deliver enormous amounts of torque, so if the pressure is not at it's highest point the GV will slip, or delay shifting until the rpm's are high enough.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> A 101s LiPo pack might be at too high of a voltage when fresh off the charger; the Shiva was designed to accommodate a 100s LiPo pack *max*. That said, there is little sense in running so high of a pack voltage for standard WarP-11 motors, anyway. Yes, you can set the maximum voltage seen by the motor with any of the Soliton controllers (assuming, as Qer pointed out, that no other limiting functions like battery current, battery voltage, controller temperature are in effect), but that is basically the same thing as not using some of your pack's capacity.
> 
> In other words, a 101s LiPo pack will be at such a high voltage that even when sagging down by half it will still be too much for a WarP motor. And speaking of, where did you get the idea the WarP-11 can take 240-260V at the same time as you are pushing 2000-3000A through it? Serious question, as my understanding is that 190V is a pretty hard limit for any of the standard (non-interpoled) WarP motors (its just the current they can take at the same time that goes up with frame size).
> 
> So a 15p80s pack would be a better match for the WarP motors, voltage-wise, but I still like my previous suggestion that you just build another pack identical to the first one and then feed each Shiva separately.


Okay, I have decided to build each Shiva their own 10P ?V pack. 

In regards to sending 2000-3000amps through a (non-interpoled) Warp motor is possible at 240V. Ask Michael at EV West, that BMW is sending over 240V to his Warp (non-interpoled) motor. He has the same Helwig brush holders with Helwig brushes.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> Did you have your unit specially built for this application/car? . . . or did you buy an off-the-shelf unit?
> 
> You should also verify that the shift solenoid is working properly.
> 
> What I would suggest was install a small light in the dash that represents first gear. This is what I did. That way, you know at a glance what gear you are in. Otherwise, it is impossible to know if using a pushbutton type of switch.


I have a switch on the steering wheel with a light when the switch is on, when I hit turned the switch on it took about 3 seconds for a soft shift. In my opinion I feel the motor rpm's were too low and not enough pressure, once I kept speeding up it finally reached the minimum shift pressure.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> The shift does not depend on mph, it depends on rpm at motor. Some set-ups can get 20mph at 1500rpm, some at 3000rpm, it all depends on the ring & pinion. The main issue is the motor rpm's needs to be above 3000 to get a solid hard shift. Remember two 11" Warp motors deliver enormous amounts of torque, so if the pressure is not at it's highest point the GV will slip, or delay shifting until the rpm's are high enough.


OF course it depends on motor rpm. I used 20mph as a reference above which there are typically no issues. This is what their controller does. Where in the world did you get the 3000 rpm requirement from?? I would say by 1000 rpm you are well above the shift pressure required. I shot an email to Nick at GV to see . . . haven't heard back yet.

My 13" motor will deliver very similar torque at the same current as two 11" motors and it shifts like a hammer at anything over 20 mph (direct drive with a 3.55:1 differential) That is no where near 3000 rpm even with a 3.00:1 diff.

This bit below has nothing to do with shift pressure. 



GeoMetric said:


> Reading the GearVendors website, I think my 3.00 gear ratio is too low, not enough rpm's to build the pressure needed for a solid shift.
> This bit below has nothing to do with shift pressure.
> "*Cars* — virtually any car that does not have a factory overdrive gear is going to gain 22-28% typically by adding the *GEAR VENDORS OVERDRIVE*. Exceptions would be a car with say an unusually tall diff gear like say 2.73 where the engine really is quite low in rpm at cruise already. But for all us  performance guys who run *3.42 to 4.10s* you are looking at something near 25% gain in mpg at highway speeds. If your car has forced induction (supercharger) plan on even bigger gains — not uncommon for blown car to get 100% better fuel economy with the *GEAR VENDORS* simply because the overdrive is also slowing down the blower, plus reducing heat internally in the blowers charge area."
> 
> http://www.gearvendors.com/faq.html



You didn't mention if you had your GV ordered/set up for your application from the factory. This is important, as the clutch engagement rate could cause slippage if not tuned for your beast.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> OF course it depends on motor rpm. I used 20mph as a reference above which there are typically no issues. This is what their controller does. Where in the world did you get the 3000 rpm requirement from?? I would say by 1000 rpm you are well above the shift pressure required. I shot an email to Nick at GV to see . . . haven't heard back yet.
> 
> My 13" motor will deliver very similar torque at the same current as two 11" motors and it shifts like a hammer at anything over 20 mph (direct drive with a 3.55:1 differential) That is no where near 3000 rpm even with a 3.00:1 diff.
> 
> ...


My GV was ordered new and was built for maximum torque for an electric drag car. The unit's manual says you must take the GV unit out of OD before 20mph because of lower rpm's which creates lower pressure. When I had the 3.25 gearing (last year) the unit shifted fine, this year with the 3.00 gearing the unit shifts soft and late. No matter what the cause, the unit needs new clutches. Also, one 13" Warp motor does not create anywhere near the same torque of two 11" Warp Motors. Another thing to remember is my wide slicks that grap with no slip on launch. I like the GV unit, but must change gearing again and get a rebuild. I think next year I will go back to the 3.25 ring & pinion.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

I have good news and bad news on my Haiyin cells.

"Ron,

I have some data for you. I will find a USB flash to download the screen shots so you can see what is going on visually.
I set the tests to a lower voltage so we could see what it was dropping to.
At 250amps to 300amps you have the most energy/power available for long duration about 1min over 800watts . Temp rise is extreme water or lots of air cooling recommended! Someway to get the heat away from the cells at a very high rate.

Amps these cells output amazing amps for a very short time but not great power. At around 400amps you have that for about 6seconds. The voltage drops almost straight down to 2.2v I stopped at 2.2v to keep the cell alive. Net power at the end is 880watts. The cell can do burst amps for a few milliseconds at over 100c. The voltage goes straight down very low net watts not much better.

The average peak power the cell can produce is around 1200watts for about 1sec the cell likes to produce around an average of 800watts or 1hp per cell. Like I said before be careful as the temperature rise is almost straight up. Cooling is needed to keep them from overheating and loosing performance and or catching on fire.."


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> I have good news and bad news on my Haiyin cells.
> 
> "Ron,
> 
> ...


 You sure these are better then RC lipo?


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I am fasinated by the progression of this project. I know the team isn't satisfied with the results yet (competitive hunger), but the progress is amazing. I can't wait to see what independant packs get you. Direct drive might be more robust, but would you worry about running out of acceleration at the end of the run? Seems like you have a good idea what went wrong on the GV. Good luck next season. I'll be watching.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Arlo said:


> You sure these are better then RC lipo?


Depends on how you rate "better", yes there are some RC cells that will produce higher amps, but the design on RC cells would not work on large applications. Most RC cells create huge bursts, but come with small tabs that would not work for large 3000amp packs. So, these cells are better suited for EV drag racing because of their large cell tabs.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Joey said:


> I am fasinated by the progression of this project. I know the team isn't satisfied with the results yet (competitive hunger), but the progress is amazing. I can't wait to see what independant packs get you. Direct drive might be more robust, but would you worry about running out of acceleration at the end of the run? Seems like you have a good idea what went wrong on the GV. Good luck next season. I'll be watching.


Thank you! Already working on the second pack. 2013 will be here before you blink your eyes.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Ron,

I have some data for you. I will find a USB flash to download the screen shots so you can see what is going on visually.
I set the tests to a lower voltage so we could see what it was dropping to.
At 250amps to 300amps you have the most energy/power available for long duration about 1min over 800watts . Temp rise is extreme water or lots of air cooling recommended! Someway to get the heat away from the cells at a very high rate.

Amps these cells output amazing amps for a very short time but not great power. At around 400amps you have that for about 6seconds. The voltage drops almost straight down to 2.2v I stopped at 2.2v to keep the cell alive. Net power at the end is 880watts. The cell can do burst amps for a few milliseconds at over 100c. The voltage goes straight down very low net watts not much better.

The average peak power the cell can produce is around 1200watts for about 1sec the cell likes to produce around an average of 800watts or 1hp per cell. Like I said before be careful as the temperature rise is almost straight up. Cooling is needed to keep them from overheating and loosing performance and or catching on fire..


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Hi Ron,

There is always a unknown with cells you can't help but hurt them sometimes this is racing. You should be fine between 250amps and 300amps for up to 10seconds without cooling as long as you give it a rest between runs. Impedance growth will be minimal and the power will be good. 
According to the tests if you keep them 250amps to 300amps for 9 to 10seconds the power will get almost as much power as pushing them hard with less voltage drop over time. Giving you motor more voltage for the 10seconds and should equate to higher rpm at the finish line. You will see a spike in temp on the tabs and body of the cell yellow and red lines in the screen shots. Give them time to rest before recharge to cool. Adding cooling with air will help to bring them closer to ambient faster. The cells here I tested increased in impedance because I pushed them to the max on amps. If I had stopped sooner they would have been fine. They are not a bad cell if used right better than a lot of other cells out there.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

* Discharge 257A 

*


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

*Discharge 481A*


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

*Discharge 300A









*


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

It looks like the 250 amp rate is a too much for it You can see the voltage start back up as the cells warms up. This happens after the race is all over so unless you get them warmed up before the run the voltage is going to be badly suppressed. The sag should look better at 200 amps.

You are using the WarP 11's with the brushes that are good to 192 volts? You just want to make sure the sag never goes below 192 if that is the case in order to get max power. If the voltage sags too much your torque will drop off at a lower RPM so you would need to shift sooner.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> It looks like the 250 amp rate is a too much for it You can see the voltage start back up as the cells warms up. This happens after the race is all over so unless you get them warmed up before the run the voltage is going to be badly suppressed. The sag should look better at 200 amps.
> 
> You are using the WarP 11's with the brushes that are good to 192 volts? You just want to make sure the sag never goes below 192 if that is the case in order to get max power. If the voltage sags too much your torque will drop off at a lower RPM so you would need to shift sooner.


Derek, says I can run the cells for 10 seconds at 250amps (2500amp 10P) with a sag of 3.3volts per cell. So, our plan is to build two packs, feed 2500amps and 190v to 240v to each motor. My motors are not stock Warp motors, they have custom Helwig brush holder with #49 brushes, than can handle the abuse. Already removed all the cells from the car, going through testing while building additional 10P packs.


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## bakes (Jun 15, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> Derek, says I can run the cells for 10 seconds at 250amps (2500amp 10P) with a sag of 3.3volts per cell. So, our plan is to build two packs, feed 2500amps and 190v to 240v to each motor.


Does this include the burnout box as well as the run?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

bakes said:


> Does this include the burnout box as well as the run?


Yes, the parallel connections and cells can operate with plenty of "wiggle" room for burnout and run at 250 to 300amps. I am calculating the series connections, I am redesigning the series connections from bus bars on the ends to a new upgraded copper straps that will screw into the parallel bus bars in three locations. Using a copper strap will reduce weight and allow the series connection along the entire 10P module.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

A Good Friend Stopped By When Visiting Connecticut, Dennis Berube.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Okay, the GV unit is cooked. The clutches burned out, fluid dark and burnt. Ordering a new rebuild kit from GearVendors. Had a long talk with tech at GV about shifting at low rpm with over 2000lbs of torque, NO CAN DO! The unit can shift with heavy loads (trailers, etc..) at lower rpm, but not slamming 2000lbs of torque. I MUST have the rpm's over 2000 to create a high pressure solid shift with that kind of torque. So, the new ring & pinion will be 3.50 from Moser.

Since, I am building two packs that will create 200+V at sag to each of my Warp 11" motors, I will have the additional rpm's/ HP.


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## bakes (Jun 15, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> Okay, the GV unit is cooked. The clutches burned out, fluid dark and burnt. Ordering a new rebuild kit from GearVendors. Had a long talk with tech at GV about shifting at low rpm with over 2000lbs of torque, NO CAN DO! The unit can shift with heavy loads (trailers, etc..) at lower rpm, but not slamming 2000lbs of torque. I MUST have the rpm's over 2000 to create a high pressure solid shift with that kind of torque. So, the new ring & pinion will be 3.50 from Moser.
> 
> Since, I am building two packs that will create 200+V at sag to each of my Warp 11" motors, I will have the additional rpm's/ HP.


This is why i asked if you could modify the GV valve body to run Co2 ( the lube circuit still runs oil) this is what guys did when they made a power glide to run a clutch instead of a Torque converter . you set the Co2 regualtor to the Psi you need to hold the clucth pack. (holds hard and is very fast)http://www.summitracing.com/search/...Brake-Solenoids/Transmission-Type/Powerglide/


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

bakes said:


> This is why i asked if you could modify the GV valve body to run Co2 ( the lube circuit still runs oil) this is what guys did when they made a power glide to run a clutch instead of a Torque converter . you set the Co2 regualtor to the Psi you need to hold the clucth pack. (holds hard and is very fast)http://www.summitracing.com/search/...Brake-Solenoids/Transmission-Type/Powerglide/


I know what you are describing, will have more info on the GV unit once I rip it apart.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, hard at work building the two battery packs, one for each Shiva. Must stick with 10P, but the series amount is still under discussion. We know each 10P pulling 300amps gives a sag of 3.3V, so I could go 65S 214.5volts or higher. 

One thing I do know that must be completed while under winter rebuild is adding battery box frames. The only space I have left is the passenger floor, so the tin is coming up and angle iron is going in. I will raise the floor 10" to allow room for sealed lexan battery boxes. New thicker floor will cover the lexan boxes. This weight addition will also help adjusting the 4 link, the car will balance even better with even weight in the center. 

This car is going to have an enormous amount of lithium cells to feed them two hungry Shiva controllers.


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Okay, I have decided to build each Shiva their own 10P ?V pack.
> 
> In regards to sending 2000-3000amps through a (non-interpoled) Warp motor is possible at 240V. Ask Michael at EV West, that BMW is sending over 240V to his Warp (non-interpoled) motor. He has the same Helwig brush holders with Helwig brushes.


Ron, I don't know if you will listen because I have told you many times. IF you want to get good ET's then you need to run the motor controller like a DC-DC converter. In other words you need to run at least 400 volts battery voltage and then set the motor volts output to the 200 volts that you need at 3000 amps. This will eliminate the motor volts from sagging since the battery input amps will be about half the value (1500 amps), but you will maintain motor amps of 3000 amps at 200 volts. The power did not change. All we did was trade voltage for current which is still the same power. It 's like transformers used for AC. You are trading voltage for current, but the power is the same.

I am telling you, this is how those West coast guys get good ET times. It's one of those racing secrets as they like to call them. 

What you need to do is design a parallel battery pack module and test it for 1000 to 1500 amp draw. If you can keep the voltage level at 3.6 volts or higher for 10 seconds then you are good to go. Then take these parallel modules and make up a series string until you get 396 volts DC (110 series pack). You will run low 9's in the 1/4 mile.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Dennis said:


> Ron, I don't know if you will listen because I have told you many times. IF you want to get good ET's then you need to run the motor controller like a DC-DC converter. In other words you need to run at least 400 volts battery voltage and then set the motor volts output to the 200 volts that you need at 3000 amps. This will eliminate the motor volts from sagging since the battery input amps will be about half the value (1500 amps), but you will maintain motor amps of 3000 amps at 200 volts. The power did not change. All we did was trade voltage for current which is still the same power. It 's like transformers used for AC. You are trading voltage for current, but the power is the same.
> 
> I am telling you, this is how those West coast guys get good ET times. It's one of those racing secrets as they like to call them.
> 
> What you need to do is design a parallel battery pack module and test it for 1000 to 1500 amp draw. If you can keep the voltage level at 3.6 volts or higher for 10 seconds then you are good to go. Then take these parallel modules and make up a series string until you get 396 volts DC (110 series pack). You will run low 9's in the 1/4 mile.


Your not telling me anything I don't already know. Our only problem was the cells did not hold the voltage high enough during amps being sucked out. We know/ knew we could always go higher in voltage and lower in amperage. The true KW of any pack is under sag, we know this and now know what is needed with these cells.

It is my error for not having these cells tested under racing load conditions, I would have built more in series and lowered the amps. We are currently updating our packs to allow less sag, and add more in series to up the voltage. Our goal is for each pack to deliver 600KW.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

So you aren't going to have the super high voltage race motors next season? Are you waiting to max out the current motors before you move up to those?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Your not telling me anything I don't already know. Our only problem was the cells did not hold the voltage high enough during amps being sucked out. We know/ knew we could always go higher in voltage and lower in amperage. The true KW of any pack is under sag, we know this and now know what is needed with these cells.
> 
> It is my error for not having these cells tested under racing load conditions, I would have built more in series and lowered the amps. We are currently updating our packs to allow less sag, and add more in series to up the voltage. Our goal is for each pack to deliver 600KW.



IIRC you were getting the absolute maximum power possible out of your cells (sagging to half nominal voltage at full load). The only problem (besides decreasing cycle life) was that 1/2 of nominal voltage dropped you down below what was needed to max out the voltage capability of your motors. To use your batteries at maximum power for pack weight you need a pack that will sag to your motors maximum voltage at 1/2 pack nominal. So if getting the most power for battery weight is a bigger concern than pack life you need to increase pack nominal voltage to twice what your motors can handle. The Shivas should have plenty of headroom. 
The more realistic solution is probably what you plan to do by adding another pack.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> The more realistic solution is probably what you plan to do by adding another pack.


 Judging from one of Ron's other posts, i suspect he has found another (better) solution to this issue.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Judging from one of Ron's other posts, i suspect he has found another (better) solution to this issue.


Does that mean there will be a new "Best Battery in the World"?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, we have a new name and logo! 

We also have added a new sponsor to our 2013 line-up, EVTV.ME has now sponsored WarpSpeed EV Motorsports!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)




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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

What batteries are you using now? Specs? 

sometimes i can be a right perfectionist, so bare with me but surely the logo should read: "Warp speed EV motorsport" and "World record holding electric vehicle". I hate to be the spelling police, but that is my opinion.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Which world record are we referring to ?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Karter2 said:


> Which world record are we referring to ?


That would be the record for the first 9 second.................oh wait, never mind.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> What batteries are you using now? Specs?
> 
> sometimes i can be a right perfectionist, so bare with me but surely the logo should read: "Warp speed EV motorsport" and "World record holding electric vehicle". I hate to be the spelling police, but that is my opinion.


Jordysport,

It's a LOGO, it can be spelled as I please.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Which world record are we referring to ?


 Just curious do you have something to race?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> That would be the record for the first 9 second.................oh wait, never mind.


Did 9 seconds on the dyno, will definitely own the title in 2013, by the way how fast is your drag car?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Did 9 seconds on the dyno, will definitely own the title in 2013, by the way how fast is your drag car?


My stock 1992 Sc400 did 200mph on a dyno. Claiming that weak link to reality means a damn thing would be pathetic. How fast is your dyno car?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> My stock 1992 Sc400 did 200mph on a dyno. Claiming that weak link to reality means a damn thing would be pathetic. How fast is your dyno car?


Since you continue to bust my chops, let's race this spring for $5,000.00? My Camaro against your electric drag car. You can pick the track.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Since you continue to bust my chops, let's race this spring for $5,000.00? My Camaro against your electric drag car. You can pick the track.


Lol-I will have PZigouras take my spot. He has as much of a 9 second car as you do.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Lol-I will have PZigouras take my spot. He has as much of a 9 second car as you do.


Oh, so no car. No racing. Just another back seat driver thinking he knows best. No longer need to answer to a blow hard, have a nice life.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Lol-I will have PZigouras take my spot. He has as much of a 9 second car as you do.


I found one of your past threads, LMFAO!

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12857

You say your from Gainsville, FL. My uncle (Loui Galli) races there every weekend, can I get a name of your past racing career?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> I found one of your past threads, LMFAO!
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12857
> 
> You say your from Gainsville, FL. My uncle (Loui Galli) races there every weekend, can I get a name of your past racing career?



Lol-my beginner post waaaay back from 2008 has more insightful questions than you have ever asked on this board. Thanks for that blast from the past. It looks like Uncle Loui is better than you at going fast. I would gladly buy him a beer.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Lol-my beginner post waaaay back from 2008 has more insightful questions than you have ever asked on this board. Thanks for that blast from the past. It looks like Uncle Loui is better than you at going fast. I would gladly buy him a beer.


I have raced 10.08 @ 128mph in the 1/4 mile with an EV, how about your EV drag car started in 2008?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Good Night All! I had enough fun with this joker.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

And again Ron resorts to PM threatening to "Find out who I am." Apparently he was going to use Seb to get this information.  I'm not sure what he wants to do when he finds out so I just went ahead and told him. Good to see the self appointed ambassador to the sport behave so well.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> And again Ron resorts to PM threatening to "Find out who I am." Apparently he was going to use Seb to get this information.  I'm not sure what he wants to do when he finds out so I just went ahead and told him. Good to see the self appointed ambassador to the sport behave so well.


Didn't your Mamma teach you to not tell a lie, not once did I threaten you. Just curious who the sap from FL is that cares so much about my career. It's nice to know who all your friends are. LOL


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

My momma taught me reading comprehension. 

Why do you need to know my name Ron? What do you hope to do with my name? Do you have so many people clamoring to be your friend everywhere you go that you will screen all of their names and make sure to deny Josh Miller from the DiyElectriccar board who annoyed you online that privilege? Is it that simple?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> Just curious do you have something to race?


 Yes.
..now i have answered your question, will you answer mine ?
Which world record are we talking about ?

..and what relevance is it if i have something to race or not ?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Yes.
> ..now i have answered your question, will you answer mine ?
> Which world record are we talking about ?
> 
> ..and what relevance is it if i have something to race or not ?


The World record of the fastest electric EV drag Camaro. What car or records do you own?


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> My momma taught me reading comprehension.
> 
> Why do you need to know my name Ron? What do you hope to do with my name? Do you have so many people clamoring to be your friend everywhere you go that you will screen all of their names and make sure to deny Josh Miller from the DiyElectriccar board who annoyed you online that privilege? Is it that simple?


Nothing at all, just would like to know who is following me on many boards with attacks on my every post. It's also nice to know when an EV event happens and you can meet the person face to face. So far, everyone that has attacked me on this board that I did meet turned into a pussycat once in person. I am sure you fit right in this group. Now have a nice day, please stop with the computer harassment and move on.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Jordysport,
> 
> It's a LOGO, it can be spelled as I please.


Yes you can....just looks unprofessional to me, your free to do what you want .


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> And again Ron resorts to PM threatening to "Find out who I am." Apparently he was going to use Seb to get this information.  I'm not sure what he wants to do when he finds out so I just went ahead and told him. Good to see the self appointed ambassador to the sport behave so well.


Unfortunately that's not the first time i've heard that, 

unfortunately my car that's designed for circuit racing will do only do 11.44 1/4 mile. shame my drag car won't be done till summer 2013, as that will be in the low 9's


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> Unfortunately that's not the first time i've heard that,
> 
> unfortunately my car that's designed for circuit racing will do only do 11.44 1/4 mile. shame my drag car won't be done till summer 2013, as that will be in the low 9's


Wow, the attacks keep coming. Too late guys, I already signed my new sponsorship contract for 2013.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

GeoMetric said:


> Nothing at all, just would like to know who is following me on many boards with attacks on my every post. It's also nice to know when an EV event happens and you can meet the person face to face. So far, everyone that has attacked me on this board that I did meet turned into a pussycat once in person. I am sure you fit right in this group. Now have a nice day, please stop with the computer harassment and move on.


I have only ever posted anything in any thread you are involved in on this forum. Claiming I follow you "on many boards with attacks" is just more of your paranoia. 

I am pretty sure the reason everyone "Turned pussycat" in person is because all the macho bluster was and is coming from you. If I do get the chance to meet you I will be glad to discuss the fact that you have not yet run 9 seconds so you should quit claiming you have a 9 second car until you do. If I say it without screaming and yelling I guess I will have "turned pussycat" as well. 

The "computer harassment" will continue from me and everyone else as long as you keep trying to treat car forum posts as press releases. If you want to issue press releases with no comments in reply post them on your website and stay off of car forums.

I have bit my tongue and left you alone for a really long time on here because I think your efforts can be good for the sport. I will try to go back to that but jesus you make it hard.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> Wow, the attacks keep coming. Too late guys, I already signed my new sponsorship contract for 2013.


Ron its not an attact, its a statement. and my respect has gone down for your sponsors since sponsoring the Camaro because of this. 

Only reason i posted was to help, as the Logo looked unprofessional with the way it read the ambiguity and the spelling. a logo is one of the main things people remember and associate with your product. if you don't want to take my advice on board that's fine but no need for the serious attitude with it.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> Ron its not an attact, its a statement. and my respect has gone down for your sponsors since sponsoring the Camaro because of this.
> 
> Only reason i posted was to help, as the Logo looked unprofessional with the way it read the ambiguity and the spelling. a logo is one of the main things people remember and associate with your product. if you don't want to take my advice on board that's fine but no need for the serious attitude with it.


This post is hilarious! Who the hell are you? A nobody, with no experience, no records, no common sense. Do you honestly believe the true EV drag racers and sponsors give two sheets what you say about me.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> I have only ever posted anything in any thread you are involved in on this forum. Claiming I follow you "on many boards with attacks" is just more of your paranoia.
> 
> I am pretty sure the reason everyone "Turned pussycat" in person is because all the macho bluster was and is coming from you. If I do get the chance to meet you I will be glad to discuss the fact that you have not yet run 9 seconds so you should quit claiming you have a 9 second car until you do. If I say it without screaming and yelling I guess I will have "turned pussycat" as well.
> 
> ...


We can see right through your BS! Attack on! You have my blessing.


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> This post is hilarious! Who the hell are you? A nobody, with no experience, no records, no common sense. Do you honestly believe the true EV drag racers and sponsors give two sheets what you say about me.


Ron, Who is attacking now? and more than that personally attacking. 

Who are you to say i have no experience, no records and no common sense on the most part is the complete opposite. 

You are right EV drag racers and sponsors don't give "two sheets" what I say, but I am sure they give a "sheet" what you say about others & the general public.

I came into this thread genuinely interested in the new cells you are using and trying to help on your marketing side of things but it was immediately thrown back in my face


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jordysport said:


> ..You are right EV drag racers and sponsors don't give "two sheets" what I say, but I am sure they give a "sheet" what you say about others & the general public....


Yep. I definitely care how the *few* people Evnetics has sponsored behave towards others. I can't say I am entirely pleased with what is going on here, either.

But y'all damn well knew this is just how Ron is... I mean, I don't think I've ever seen a bigger trash-talker outside of the nutjobs/miscreants that haunt 4chan. So keep poking him with a stick and watch his green blob turn red again, I s'pose...


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Good God people! I feel like I'm on some ricer board full of pimply teenagers.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Yep. I definitely care how the *few* people Evnetics has sponsored behave towards others. I can't say I am entirely pleased with what is going on here, either.
> 
> But y'all damn well knew this is just how Ron is... I mean, I don't think I've ever seen a bigger trash-talker outside of the nutjobs/miscreants that haunt 4chan. So keep poking him with a stick and watch his green blob turn red again, I s'pose...


Jeff, big mistake.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Good Morning All,

First, I kindly ask all critics to stop analyzing my every move and word. I apologize if my reactions have been heavy handed, but it comes with my territory. I have lived in the World of drag racing for over 26 years, in this environment we take critics very seriously and respond with vengence. I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree or not.

GLTA, and have a Wonderful Holiday!

Ron


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Thoughts, and hard lessons learned:

Racing is normally done by Type A folk.

Trash talk is common.

The internet has made it easier.

But, from my experience in many different forms of racing in 35 years, is that it stops on race day at the track. 

I'm no saint. So I've shot my mouth off before. What I found as time went on, is it will cost you sponsors, fans, and parts availability. If you can afford that price, go ahead. But it nearly bankrupted me. If I was a deaf mute, I'd be John Force by now. Instead, I'm still a hobby racer.

This is free advice, but I'm positive it's underpriced.

PS - What do you do when you trash talk someone, then they crash and are killed. At least man up and attend the funeral to show respect. Thankfully I only had to do that once.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

McRat said:


> Thoughts, and hard lessons learned:
> 
> Racing is normally done by Type A folk.
> 
> ...


I thank you for your input. I recommend anyone looking to learn about drag racing persona's read the Yellow Bullet Forum, you will read how us racers trash talk. 

In regards to sponsors and racers, I have watched racers ratings rise from fist fights and arguments, have you even watched NASCAR? Fans love the drama and sponsors agree. This forum is not suited for EV drag racers, so we get bias comments from people who never raced in their lifetime.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

GeoMetric said:


> I thank you for your input. I recommend anyone looking to learn about drag racing persona's read the Yellow Bullet Forum, you will read how us racers trash talk.
> 
> In regards to sponsors and racers, I have watched racers ratings rise from fist fights and arguments, have you even watched NASCAR? Fans love the drama and sponsors agree. This forum is not suited for EV drag racers, so we get bias comments from people who never raced in their lifetime.


When your sponsor is Tide, or Marlboro, drama doesn't always hurt your sponsor.

When your sponsor is ... uh ... Widget Cams, and the drama makes other racers stop buying, then you lose Widget.

Let's say you run A456 batteries and they sponsor you. But many racers run Euracell. You get in a pissing contest.

You end up saying Euracell is slow, and a waste of money. They say A456 is flawed and dangerous, and the Racing Manager is child molester.

A456 sends you a letter: "Uh, we are pulling out." 

Euracell perhaps does the same. 

Throwing shiit into a fan gets it on everybody.

Sponsors who sell parts want a lot of Press with their name in it. Mags, TV, internet, etc. But they do not necessarily want it regardless of cost. They are more like General Electric than the Kardashians. Good public image is important. Ask Tiger Woods.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Getting back to Planet Earth and Web Forums:

I own a racing webforum. There is a balance you must achieve, a little drama is good, a lot is bad.

When you allow unrestricted warfare, the tech content falls. Do you want to post a review of a Widget Cam and how to tune it, if people jump in and start insulting you? No. You keep the info to yourself.

You end up with a busy board with no real content. Kind of like Facebook. Large but pointless. Yes, it makes money if that is what your goal is.

But if your goal is to get tech up on a board and people sharing what they learn, you have to restrain it.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I’m hesitant to post (I hope to give a perspective and not put fuel on the fire). I think you have accomplished a lot with your electric racing team. I think you still have more performance potential in your platform, and next year promises to be exciting. It is clear that you have vision and drive to accomplish your goals. The biggest issue that has caused problems on this forum is a clash with your promotional style – blurring the difference between vision and what has been achieved, and then it just escalates from there. Best of luck next season.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> ... This forum is not suited for EV drag racers, so we get bias comments from people who never raced in their lifetime.


 This is not a drag racers forum ,..its a EV Performance forum.
And i dont believe there is a pre requisite to be a racer in order to post comments ?


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## Jordysport (Mar 22, 2009)

GeoMetric said:


> I thank you for your input. I recommend anyone looking to learn about drag racing persona's read the Yellow Bullet Forum, you will read how us racers trash talk.
> 
> In regards to sponsors and racers, I have watched racers ratings rise from fist fights and arguments, have you even watched NASCAR? Fans love the drama and sponsors agree. *This forum is not suited for EV drag racers, so we get bias comments from people who never raced in their lifetime*.


I did my very best not to post but this shocked me, I've raced since i was 5 and done a few drag races at the "pod" done considerable hillclimbs, and no one ever talks like that it is a very strong community and far from the way you talk. so please don't tarnish us with your brush!


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Jordysport said:


> I did my very best not to post but this shocked me, I've raced since i was 5 and done a few drag races at the "pod" done considerable hillclimbs, and no one ever talks like that it is a very strong community and far from the way you talk. so please don't tarnish us with your brush!


I want to be as blunt as possible, stay off my threads. I do not believe a word you post. I have been ripping people on this board (who deserved it) for over two years, and still gained the most sponsorship from any EV drag racer and watched the World write 32 positive news articles on my accomplishments. So, take a hike, I can see right through your agenda.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> This is not a drag racers forum ,..its a EV Performance forum.
> And i dont believe there is a pre requisite to be a racer in order to post comments ?


Then maybe I should let all the posers post their fake goals and let the board go with no EV racing info? Most of my friends that race have posted here, but really hate this board because of the way you guys attack without merrit.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

McRat said:


> When your sponsor is Tide, or Marlboro, drama doesn't always hurt your sponsor.
> 
> When your sponsor is ... uh ... Widget Cams, and the drama makes other racers stop buying, then you lose Widget.
> 
> ...


Like I posted, I respect your opinion if you have a racing background. But, all my sponsors have gained sales because of me, even Jeff will co-sign that. Dennis Berube, Mike Pethel, etc...have all bought Shiva controllers because I convinced them to buy. Haiyin Technologies has sold thousands of cells to customers because of me and my accomplishments.

Comparing me to Tiger Woods is like comparing apples to oranges. Tiger beat his wife and cheeted on his wife. He would still have sponsors if he was just defending himself. Many of my very good friends fight, talk smack, etc....at the track and hold sponsors your many years. I know what to say, and how far to go. I am done with this petty bull.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> .... Haiyin Technologies has sold thousands of cells to customers because of me and my accomplishments .


 sorry Ron,
can you remind us again exactly what your "accomplishments" with Haiyin cells were ??


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Guys, just drop it. I have no idea what you expect to accomplish.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hey, How about them Cubs?.....

Miz


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> sorry Ron,
> can you remind us again exactly what your "accomplishments" with Haiyin cells were ??


10.4 ET @ 125mph with an underbuilt pack. 
http://www.lithiumaniacsracing.com/

I also sponsored Jayhawk Motorsports:
http://www.nemrs.net/evroadcourseracing.html

Now can you remind me what your car accomplished?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

GeoMetric said:


> 10.4 ET @ 125mph with an underbuilt pack.
> /


 So what you "accomplished" was to run a slower time than your previous car, ......despite it being lighter and with a much upgraded drive system ?



GeoMetric said:


> I also sponsored Jayhawk Motorsports:


 supporting another team is not an accomplishment.




GeoMetric said:


> Now can you remind me what your car accomplished?


I wasnt the one claiming to have accomplished anything


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> So what you "accomplished" was to run a slower time than your previous car, ......despite it being lighter and with a much upgraded drive system ?
> 
> 
> supporting another team is not an accomplishment.
> ...


10.4 ET is a great accomplishment. Yes, new car, but smaller pack. Thank you for your great concern on my behalf, now please move on and hassle someone else.


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## GeoMetric (Aug 13, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> supporting another team is not an accomplishment.


Not supporting, sponsoring. Haiyin Technologies would not lower their price of the cells, Jayhawk Team had a cap on what they could spend of their pack. I lowered the price as a dealer and paid $3500.00 out of my pocket so they could race. Did you not read the letter to me from the team posted on our website?

Now move on please.


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