# [EVDL] How many watt hours/mile would a Hummer take ?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Probably similar to a full sized pickup truck. I know of one guy on here
doing a full sized truck, but I'm not sure if it's on the road yet.

Given normal MPG numbers for full sized trucks, I would estimate around
1000+ watthours/mile, since the minitrucks generally get around
500wattshours/mile ish, and in ICE form generally get about twice the
mileage as a full size truck.

Z



> Altenguy <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> > H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Jan 2009 at 10:24, Altenguy wrote:
> 
> > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> > H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Using the data for an F250 gives 804 wh/mi. It required two strings of
batteries to get even a 25 mile range.

http://evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/?vals=veh=44:mot=2:bat=14:ctl=1:vlt=144:nst=2:dod=100:cwt=20:wtr=600:mwt=500:inc=1:wnd=0:sec=195:asp=60:rim=14:rr=0.015:bs=0.003:kwh=0.09:miles=20:

Put in the actual frontal area, wt and drag and you will have a good
estimate. Keep in mind that the weight is important to the rolling
resistance. Lithium is lighter and will require a bit less motor load.



> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Probably similar to a full sized pickup truck. I know of one guy on here
> > doing a full sized truck, but I'm not sure if it's on the road yet.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > John Lussmyer on this list is converting a Ford F-250 pickup, which from my
> > cursory web check appears to be in roughly the same weight range as an H3
> > (actually it weighs even more, 5500lb vs 4700lb!). He may be able to give
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Altenguy wrote:
> > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> > H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My EV at a weight of 7060 lbs with a overall gear ratio of 19.495:1 for 
speeds up to 25 mph and a gear ratio of 13.925 for speeds over 25 mph, the 
watt hours read at the E-meter ranges from 442 wh in the summer on dry level 
roads to 680 wh in the winter pushing though snow going up a 7 percent hill, 
with the heaters off or A/C off and lights off.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Altenguy" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: [EVDL] How many watt hours/mile would a Hummer take ?


> Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Willie.

More thumb rules......

so just as we say that *given typical efficiences* 1000 watts equals about 1
hp, we can also say there is about 12000 watt-hours in a gallon of gas, and
800lbs of lead, 400lbs of Nickel or 200lbs of Lithium is about a gallon.




Stay Charged
Hump





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 10:24:50AM -0700, Altenguy wrote:
> > > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I use some very different numbers, but have found them remarkably predictive.

First, there are 745.6 watts in a HP pretty much by definitiion.

Second, accounting for both the energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the
efficiencies in most available ICE engines, I have repeatedly come up with
the number of 8800 watts per gallon. But I actually use 8000 VERY
successfully if somewhat conservatively.

If 8you get 25 miles per gallon in an ICE donor, and you have a 30kw pack
you intend to use at 80%.

30*.8/=the number of gallons equivalent in electric energy.
That figure * mpg = range. 
30*.8/8*25=75 mile range

Similarly a 10 mpg car 
30*.8/8*10=30

The reason I like this is that your actual mpg is often a known item for the
original car. It rather automatically accounts for drag coefficients,
rolling resistance coefficients, weight of the vehicle, etc. etc. in total. 
In other words, it is what it is in the real world. I use highway MPG in
these calculations as it is a purer representation of aerodynamics, drag,
rolling resistance and weight than city MPG which includes a lot of sitting
at a stoplight, where we don't burn anything.

We can of course work this backwards:

30*.8/range = wHr/mile

And so 30*.8/75 = 320 watt/hr per mile

And a 10 mpg vehicle would then use

30*.8/30 = 800 watt hours per mile.

In city stop and go, ICE engines are less efficient. EVs get LONGER range
in this instance. But the law of large numbers and cancelling errors seems
to be magical in this case. It always works out for me, on the conservative
side.

If this formula gives you a range of 75 miles, you WILL get at least that,
and often a bit more. If it gives you 30, you WILL get that, and often a
bit more. So I use it as a minimum range calculation, and I almost always
get a bit more. 

This would seem to imply that if I want to convert my Escalade and get a 50
mile range, for example, I will need a 50kWhr pack. 78 200 Ahr LiFePo4 for a
250volt system would work. 

If that's more information than you were asking for.....

Jack Rickard


Tim Humphrey wrote:
> 
> Thanks Willie.
> 
> More thumb rules......
> 
> so just as we say that *given typical efficiences* 1000 watts equals about
> 1
> hp, we can also say there is about 12000 watt-hours in a gallon of gas,
> and
> 800lbs of lead, 400lbs of Nickel or 200lbs of Lithium is about a gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay Charged
> Hump
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
>>


> Altenguy wrote:
> >> > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2
> >> or
> >> > H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From Real life experience OKA with 2 cylinder engine gets 40 to 45 MPG (Euro 3 emissions) and almost 55 MPG with "no emission controls", in NEV version it uses 165 to 220 W/mile? @ 25 MPH, while with gas engine at 25 MPH it gets almost 70 MPG ! and it takes 920 lbs of lead to have same reliable range (no damage to batteries and long life 5 years so far with no deterioration in performance) to get same range as 1 gallon of Gasoline.

Based on avegage data from 46 vehicles and average of 7,500 miles of use per vehicle i.e. real life data since 2003.

Cutting the lead down to 620 lbs only made the batteries useful for 24 to 32 months and only 18 months with 425 lb of lead in flooded battery.

It takes almost the same W/mi for TESLA, VOLT and few other vehicles as it does for OKA, what makes a big difference is the AMP draw (even if it is for seconds) to accelerate the weight and it takes lot more AMP to accelerate 6,000 lbs than 2,000 in the same time, but if you can put up with acceleration in minutes instead of seconds there would again be not much difference till you start going UPHILL, as even a steady speed on incline is ACCELERATION - .







-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:22 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How many watt hours/mile would a Hummer take ?



Thanks Willie.

More thumb rules......

so just as we say that *given typical efficiences* 1000 watts equals about 1
hp, we can also say there is about 12000 watt-hours in a gallon of gas, and
800lbs of lead, 400lbs of Nickel or 200lbs of Lithium is about a gallon.




Stay Charged
Hump





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 10:24:50AM -0700, Altenguy wrote:
> > > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually I am quite surprised by the fact that people spend so much time to argue on small details of theoretical power conversions and no one seems to ever even remotedly think about $ or the TLC (Total Life Cost) the best of electric cars at $2.00 per gallon (and even less today) have COST EQUIVALENCE of 7 to 9 MPG !!!? And those are the vehicles which have by California definition of Energy equivalency CARB MPG(e) = equivalent not electric in 166 to 200 MPG !!!

EV's have very very long way to go to be cost effective if gasoline and CO2 emissions are not taxed at rates where real cost of fule would be in $7.00 to $9.00 per gallon - at that point EV would break even in the long run.....

After all MINI EV costs more to drive per mile than 7 series BMW and is almost the same as a chaufer driven Town Cars (gas and chaufer included).

When barrel of oil was $147 (peak) the EV equivalent cost was at 23.214? MPG and even by CAFE regulations car has to deliver 27.5 MPG to avoid $5.50 per 0.1 MPG deficiency fine.

But so far the EV offset of MPG CAFE fines was only calculated by GM, but they did not release the data so we can only guess at it, since BMW historically pays more in EPA CAFE fines than any other manufacturer the MINI EV will save them MORE money than the cost of the vehicles, even if they are utilized for only one year!

So in the end it is teh corporate accountants rather than the environmentalists that make such projects feasible.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Rickard <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How many watt hours/mile would a Hummer take ?




I use some very different numbers, but have found them remarkably predictive.

First, there are 745.6 watts in a HP pretty much by definitiion.

Second, accounting for both the energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the
efficiencies in most available ICE engines, I have repeatedly come up with
the number of 8800 watts per gallon. But I actually use 8000 VERY
successfully if somewhat conservatively.

If 8you get 25 miles per gallon in an ICE donor, and you have a 30kw pack
you intend to use at 80%.

30*.8/=the number of gallons equivalent in electric energy.
That figure * mpg = range. 
30*.8/8*25=75 mile range

Similarly a 10 mpg car 
30*.8/8*10=30

The reason I like this is that your actual mpg is often a known item for the
original car. It rather automatically accounts for drag coefficients,
rolling resistance coefficients, weight of the vehicle, etc. etc. in total. 
In other words, it is what it is in the real world. I use highway MPG in
these calculations as it is a purer representation of aerodynamics, drag,
rolling resistance and weight than city MPG which includes a lot of sitting
at a stoplight, where we don't burn anything.

We can of course work this backwards:

30*.8/range = wHr/mile

And so 30*.8/75 = 320 watt/hr per mile

And a 10 mpg vehicle would then use

30*.8/30 = 800 watt hours per mile.

In city stop and go, ICE engines are less efficient. EVs get LONGER range
in this instance. But the law of large numbers and cancelling errors seems
to be magical in this case. It always works out for me, on the conservative
side.

If this formula gives you a range of 75 miles, you WILL get at least that,
and often a bit more. If it gives you 30, you WILL get that, and often a
bit more. So I use it as a minimum range calculation, and I almost always
get a bit more. 

This would seem to imply that if I want to convert my Escalade and get a 50
mile range, for example, I will need a 50kWhr pack. 78 200 Ahr LiFePo4 for a
250volt system would work. 

If that's more information than you were asking for.....


Jack Rickard


Tim Humphrey wrote:
> 
> Thanks Willie.
> 
> More thumb rules......
> 
> so just as we say that *given typical efficiences* 1000 watts equals about
> 1
> hp, we can also say there is about 12000 watt-hours in a gallon of gas,
> and
> 800lbs of lead, 400lbs of Nickel or 200lbs of Lithium is about a gallon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay Charged
> Hump
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
>>


> Altenguy wrote:
> >> > Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2
> >> or
> >> > H3 Hummer take ? Similar to a pickup truck ? More ? Less ?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> > Thanks Willie.
> >
> > More thumb rules......
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Actually I am quite surprised by the fact that people spend so much time to argue on small details of theoretical power conversions and no one seems to ever even remotedly think about $ or the TLC (Total Life Cost) the best of electric cars at $2.00 per gallon (and even less today) have COST EQUIVALENCE of 7 to 9 MPG !!!? And those are the vehicles which have by California definition of Energy equivalency CARB MPG(e) = equivalent not electric in 166 to 200 MPG !!!
> 
> I don't believe anyone was arguing the cost effectiveness of EVs vs
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was not aware that all the people on this list already know that EV is a financial luxury ! (other than NEV, which can be cost effective for in city local driving)

>From my experience about 90% of inquiries from people who want OKA EV is because they think they can save BIG money on fuel and fail to realize that any battery technology is a consumable fuel ! (EPA considers battery to be fuel).

We have only had 2 customers ever that thought NO EMISSIONS are important feature.

Customers also DEMAND a range in EV that is 3 to 4 times of their normal daily driving and speed capability that exceeds the normal traffic flow, so what people think, need and want is not quite in sync !

Demand from the $4.00 per gallon fuel days?to the current under $2.00 made orders for finished OKA NEV (not a kit) drop 70%.

Since 100% of our business is COD the finance effect can be partially discounted. (Overall industry sales drop is 42% source is Polk and Automotive News)

So aparently people who do not yet own or contemplate EV think it is cheaper to drive one than having ICE anything.

May be if the fact that EV is an expensive "toy" would be more promoted it could become the new snob vehicle like BMW and PORSCHE once were, but today in the markets where we have most customers (Southern California, Nevada and Phoenix) 1990 vintage YUGO convertible gets far more attention than brand new $250,000 + car.? So being DIFFERENT is far more IMPORTANT than what someting really costs to drive if attention getting is the objective (TANGO for sure gets attention !!!)

SMART for one proves it, car that costs more and offers far less than competition is only bought for "I AM DIFFERENT" reason !

TESLA may be onto someting, but most people can not tell it appart from Lotus, that is if they can even identify Lotus in the first place, short of lot of "This is electric stickers" all over one (which people who paid $100,000 do not seem to want as they equate it with a "clown car") TESLA goes quite unnoticed in traffic.

In the past I have found not less than 12 different equivalencies between fuel, Kw and BTU and all on official Government sites like EPA, DOE, NHTSA, CARB, www.driveclean.gov etc.? So even Governmnet agencies do not seem to be able to agree on the real equivalence, which to any scientist should be a single set number without any need for lines of fine print under it.

But I have yet to see a single web that compares TLC of EV to ICE in $/mi.? that is realistic about the input data !!!

When you have the opportunity to drive many different vehicles over the same route day after day for several years, then you can compare the real costs.

I was for example stunned to find out that driving FORD Crown Vic (police interceptor specs) was actually cheaper than FORD Focus PZEV 5 speed.? One would automatically assume that V8 with automatic (4 speed) would be lot less cost efficient than the lastest in emission technology car that on smoggy day has exhaust that is cleaner than the air it breathes in, but the Crown Vic over all is about $250 annually LESS to drive - fuel is bit more but everything else from tires to brake pads to insurance is just fraction of the cost of the FOCUS and the reliability can not be even compared !!

In the end in the world that uses money for exchange real cost matters, be it know or hidden to the end consumer.

PS: Try GM Express 3500 for EV- that would make sense as you can carry 2,500 lbs in batteries and if you upgrade the suspension it can handle 5,200 lbs of load !!!? Plus the Cx is quite good as the Van gets 16 MPG at 70 MPH - again real life experience with ICE GM 350 engined cargo vans (about 32 of them since 1990).


-----Original Message-----
From: Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How many watt hours/mile would a Hummer take ?





> [email protected] wrote:
> > Actually I am quite surprised by the fact that people spend so much time to
> argue on small details of theoretical power conversions and no one seems to ever
> even remotedly think about $ or the TLC (Total Life Cost) the best of electric
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Jan 2009 at 10:24, Altenguy wrote:
> 
> 
> >> Just for discussion purposes, how many watthours per mile would an H2 or
> ...


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