# [EVDL] Batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd recommend looking at the Chinese LiFePO4. The only requirement of
yours that it misses is the warranty; you'd be taking a gamble with
it.

However, Headway sells 3.2V 10Ah Lithium cells for $17.50 in single-EV
quantities. You could make a 144V 100Ah pack from 450 cells (45s10p).
At 250Wh/mile, that's 57 miles. If you get 350Wh/mi at 65mph, you'd
have about 40 miles at freeway speeds.

This pack could discharge at 650A (sagging to 113V), and is rated at a
max current of 1,000A and 400A continuous, so performance should be
pretty good.

The pack would cost $7900 in cells, plus shipping and BMS (which
should be well under $4,000).

A few members of the list recently purchased cells, so by the time
you're ready to purchase, you should be able to read their real-world
results.

If you aren't comfortable going without a warranty, welding the pack
together, and finding a BMS solution, your best bet is probably to go
with a tried and proven lead-acid solution.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Norm Woodward <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I am doing a conversion of a 1995 Neon - FB1-4001A 9" ADC motor. I have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Norm,

You are doing the same research I am, being 73 years old and doing my second
conversion

May I suggest that you talk to Jennifer at Elite Power Solutions in Phoenix
Arizona, USA She and her husband are importing ThunderSky batteries and
they offer a one year warranty for a 10% premium on the price. Shipping is
from Phoenix.

The cells come packaged in sets of 4, giving each battery a 12.8 nominal
voltage. 44 sets of the 90 amp hour rated cells would give you 10.1 Kwh
usable at 80% discharge and would weigh in the 300 # neighborhood. The 4
pack is 8 5/8 X 5 3/4 X 8 3/4 high and can be laid on their side. The
price I was quoted was $153 per cell times 44 would be $7632. Warranty would
be $763 extra.

They have BMS and chargers available.

The downside is unknown quality. ThunderSky has had very bad quality issues
in the past, and the jury is still out on their latest cells.

Good luck. Please contact off line and keep in touch. Jerry





> Norm Woodward <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Norm Woodward wrote:
> 
> > And lastly, am I missing an option that I have overlooked
> > completely - like a different battery type or technology?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Jun 2008 at 12:50, Norm Woodward wrote:
> 
> > I think that my 900 lb limitation just about lets out any 6V or 8V
> > solution worth doing.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:45:32 -0700, Roger Stockton <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >I don't think it would be practical to swap out individual modules for Li ones. In general you would need to care for the Li modules differently than the PbA on charge, and the PbA would continue limit you in terms of range.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > >From what I can gather from their Flash-encrusted site (I don't do
> > >flash!),
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I probably should have also mentioned that although I am a first time
converter I am not a stranger to EV's. I own a Xebra (which I changed over
to floodies) so I am familiar with caring for batteries and getting the most
range from what I have available.

I guess I could put a secured and ventilated battery box on top of the floor
where the rear seat is now and then when lithium becomes a better
possibility I could remove that battery box and install a smaller permanent
one under the seat if it is required.

My last ICE before I went electric and bought a Xebra was a Mustang GT, so I
probably wouldn't be happy with Beetle performance. 

Do you think 120 volts of T-875 8V batteries will have more range than 144
volts of 8G31 12V batteries? The EV calculator at evconvert.com seems to
indicate otherwise. I wonder if the lower volts and more weight to pull is
going to offset the extra amp hours available? My math may be all wrong,
but doesn't the motor require kilowatts as opposed to purely amps? If so,
then doesn't higher voltage mean less amps to accomplish the same work? So
the Deka's (or whatever 12V battery) would require less amps and therefore
less amp hours, especially combined with the lighter weight.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

..
Norm


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 4:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries



> On 2 Jun 2008 at 12:50, Norm Woodward wrote:
> 
> > I think that my 900 lb limitation just about lets out any 6V or 8V
> > solution worth doing.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Jun 2008 at 19:28, Norm Woodward wrote:
> 
> > Do you think 120 volts of T-875 8V batteries will have more range than 144
> > volts of 8G31 12V batteries?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I can use either a 180 volt pack of 30 each 6V T-145's or a 240 volt pack of 
30 each 8V T-875's in my EV. The weight is about 200 lbs lighter with the 
240 volt pack which makes the EV weight about 6600 lbs instead of 6800 lbs.

At 30 mph in 1st gear at 6000 rpm the motor amps is 100 with the 180 volt 
pack while with the 240 volt pack its 98 volts or only a 2 volt difference.

The battery amp is about 65 amps with the 180 volt pack and 50 amps with the 
240 volt pack which is about 15 amps difference.

At 50 mph in 2nd gear at 6000 rpm, the motor amps is 135 with the 180 volt 
pack while with the 240 volt pack its about 130 volt or about a 5 amps 
difference.

If I shift at 50 mph to 3rd gear, the rpm drops to about 3500 rpm which now 
the motor amps goes to 250 amps with the 180 pack but with the 240 volt pack 
its about 240 amps which is a 10 amp difference.

The battery ampere goes to about 175 amps at 180 volts and 130 amps at 240 
volts.

The maximum voltage drop is at 160 volt for the 180 volt pack and 215 volts 
for the 240 volt pack.

The ampere-hour usage is about 2.8 ah with the 180 V pack, while the 240 v 
pack it is about 2.1 ah for about a mile. At 50% DOD the range with the 6 
volt pack at 250 AH is 46 miles and with the 8 volt pack at 188 AH it is 
about 42 miles which is a 4 mile difference.

You see the kilowatt hours is about the same no matter what volt pack I use. 
The difference in the kilowatt hrs is only 120 watt hrs, while the battery 
weight is about 200 lbs difference. The ampere-hour difference between the 
two batteries is about 60 AH.

The advantage is that at the higher volt pack, the ampere is lower and you 
have less voltage drop in your battery conductor. You just have to make 
sure, that the motor can take this higher voltage, even though you are using 
a motor controller that can limit the battery average voltage.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norm Woodward" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries


> I probably should have also mentioned that although I am a first time
> converter I am not a stranger to EV's. I own a Xebra (which I changed 
> over
> to floodies) so I am familiar with caring for batteries and getting the 
> most
> range from what I have available.
>
> I guess I could put a secured and ventilated battery box on top of the 
> floor
> where the rear seat is now and then when lithium becomes a better
> possibility I could remove that battery box and install a smaller 
> permanent
> one under the seat if it is required.
>
> My last ICE before I went electric and bought a Xebra was a Mustang GT, so 
> I
> probably wouldn't be happy with Beetle performance.
>
> Do you think 120 volts of T-875 8V batteries will have more range than 144
> volts of 8G31 12V batteries? The EV calculator at evconvert.com seems to
> indicate otherwise. I wonder if the lower volts and more weight to pull 
> is
> going to offset the extra amp hours available? My math may be all wrong,
> but doesn't the motor require kilowatts as opposed to purely amps? If so,
> then doesn't higher voltage mean less amps to accomplish the same work? 
> So
> the Deka's (or whatever 12V battery) would require less amps and therefore
> less amp hours, especially combined with the lighter weight.
>
> Thanks everyone for your comments.
>
> ..
> Norm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 4:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries
>


> > On 2 Jun 2008 at 12:50, Norm Woodward wrote:
> >
> > > I think that my 900 lb limitation just about lets out any 6V or 8V
> > > solution worth doing.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > At 30 mph in 1st gear at 6000 rpm the motor amps is 100 with
> > the 180 volt pack while with the 240 volt pack its 98 volts
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Jun 2008 at 21:32, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Twice the energy for 248lbs.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>


> > On 2 Jun 2008 at 21:32, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >
> >> > Twice the energy for 248lbs.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] batteries*

Start building an EV now, the decision as to which batteries it gets can be
held off for a little while; there's plenty of other work to do.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] batteries*

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