# Evnetics Charger Coming 2012!



## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

I want one.


----------



## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Very exciting, I hope it's true. This is definately a component the DIY EV community needs.

Can't wait to hear what they've got planned.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Oops. Maybe not. We were thinking about developing a charger next, but another project got bumped up in priority.


----------



## AaronLephart (Dec 27, 2011)

BAIT AND SWITCH! 

All the best,
Aaron Lephart


----------



## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

> Oops. Maybe not. We were thinking about developing a charger next, but another project got bumped up in priority.


A DC-DC Converter? It would be nice to have an Evnetics DC Converter mounted right next to the Soliton1 under the hood.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Rob A said:


> A DC-DC Converter? It would be nice to have an Evnetics DC Converter mounted right next to the Soliton1 under the hood.


That would be nice. Don't know the cost but it would be nice to have one which could handle the same input voltage range as the Soliton controllers.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Nope, not a dc-dc converter - the price point for such a product is too low for us to make profitably. A shame, because I have several good ideas for such a product, but if people are just going to choose a cheap Chinese SMPS because of its price then why bother?


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

Fast DC Charger maybe?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Nope, not a dc-dc converter - the price point for such a product is too low for us to make profitably. A shame, because I have several good ideas for such a product, but if people are just going to choose a cheap Chinese SMPS because of its price then why bother?


On the other hand there is no alternative to choose from. Describe the product features and the price point and see if there may indeed be a market. Enough people have dead Iotas, Chennics, and maybe even Vicors that they may be interested. Not every EV builder is a cheap ass like me, and even I see a value in not buying a product twice, or more.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...Describe the product features and the price point and see if there may indeed be a market.


There's not much "hopping up" you can do to a dc-dc converter. The main reason for any premium in cost over the usual suspects would be to fortify it against the vagaries and vicissitudes of underhood life.



JRP3 said:


> Enough people have dead Iotas, Chennics, and maybe even Vicors that they may be interested. Not every EV builder is a cheap ass like me, and even I see a value in not buying a product twice, or more.


Maybe they would. I'm not ruling it out completely, mainly because I already spent a good chunk of time designing one when you inadvertently took the wind out of my sails. Don't get me wrong - I'd much rather waste a few dozen hours on a product that doesn't get made rather than make the product anyway and then no one buys it because the cheap Chinese alternative is "good enough".


----------



## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> There's not much "hopping up" you can do to a dc-dc converter. The main reason for any premium in cost over the usual suspects would be to fortify it against the vagaries and vicissitudes of underhood life.


That is the exact reason I would pay extra for one. Also I would like to keep the cheap Chinese stuff to a minimum.


----------



## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> There's not much "hopping up" you can do to a dc-dc converter. The main reason for any premium in cost over the usual suspects would be to fortify it against the vagaries and vicissitudes of underhood life.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they would. I'm not ruling it out completely, mainly because I already spent a good chunk of time designing one when you inadvertently took the wind out of my sails. Don't get me wrong - I'd much rather waste a few dozen hours on a product that doesn't get made rather than make the product anyway and then no one buys it because the cheap Chinese alternative is "good enough".


There are cheap Chinese alternatives to motor controllers, but that doesn't stop people from buying one that actually works....(yours)
I think you would be surprised how many people would be interested in a product that just worked for a fair price.

I personally think that something that could turn itself off if the input voltage went below a certain point (only when the car is off) had an adjustable output voltage from 12-15v and put out something in the range of 40-80A in a package people would be proud to show off in their cars then you'd have something. People buy the Solitons for features/performance/reliability and maybe a bit for looks, build a dc/dc converter that satisfies those and I'd buy one. Then for the first time you'd have control of what voltage people are feeding your Solitons so they don't error out etc.

I design/build audio products for the worldwide market and I know how hard it is to compete with cheap Chinese products. The HPEVS system isn't as cheap/powerful as a DC system, but it works so people buy it. I went with the Mes Dea vacuum pump because people just say it works and it's not as loud as some of the alternatives, it costs more but I think it's worth it.
I'm sure there are tons of examples of the better product winning out over the "cheap" product.

What kind of price range do you think an Evnetics dc/dc converter would fit in?
I see $300-400US as the ideal price range for such a product, $400 and above then it starts to make you take a look at the value vs the alternatives.

Others would probably rather see it in the $100-200 range, but I doubt we would see a made in the USA product anywhere near that price.


----------



## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> There's not much "hopping up" you can do to a dc-dc converter. The main reason for any premium in cost over the usual suspects would be to fortify it against the vagaries and vicissitudes of underhood life.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they would. I'm not ruling it out completely, mainly because I already spent a good chunk of time designing one when you inadvertently took the wind out of my sails. Don't get me wrong - I'd much rather waste a few dozen hours on a product that doesn't get made rather than make the product anyway and then no one buys it because the cheap Chinese alternative is "good enough".


I just spent $300 on one that is WAY overkill for my needs because it had two features... an Aux 12v .25A always on power feed for my SOC counter, and adjustable 11-15v output. The Mean Well SD-1000H-12 at 60A is at least 3x the amperage that I need for a motorcycle, but it has a 3 yr warranty, MTBF to match, and a operating heat range that I think will be ok on the bike. I know that it wasn't designed for the EV environment, but at least it was designed as a dc-dc rather than a re-purposed ac-dc converter.

I looked at the Chennic, Kelly and a variety of relabeled "EV" dc-dc offerings, but didn't find anything I felt comfortable with. If there were something available that was designed for the EV environment, I'd be all over it.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi Jeff,
I think a EV specific DCDC would sell without a problem. You already know how many EVnetics controllers we sell so I would say almost all those customers would be willing to spend a little more to get a DC converter that works as well as your controllers. I say go for it!
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Maybe they would. I'm not ruling it out completely, mainly because I already spent a good chunk of time designing one when you inadvertently took the wind out of my sails.


Sorry, didn't mean to kill the party, I take it all back.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Reliability is another reason people would buy it. I have a Sure Power Industries, Inc DC-DC which has an always on pin and a switched pin. I understand that GEM went with these because they never had any warranty requests on them. This one has been rock solid for me which is important because I don't have a 12V battery or anywhere to put one. I have a "packed" Gizmo and any one who has worked on these knows what I mean. Sure Power only makes voltage ranges, mine goes from ~28V to just under 70V but can handle up to 100V for a short period of time. It just doesn't put out much if anything above 70V input. This one has a reasonably solid 13.5V output.


----------



## Ellrot (May 17, 2010)

An Evnetics controller, plus Charger, plus Dc-dc converter, now that would be awesome. I'd buy them..


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

StanSimmons said:


> I just spent $300 on one that is WAY overkill for my needs because it had two features... an Aux 12v .25A always on power feed for my SOC counter, and adjustable 11-15v output. ....


Putting the ability to adjust the output voltage would require installing a trimpot on the pc board, and trimpots are notoriously susceptible to vibration, and swings in humidity and temperature. They are seriously _verboten_ for any device intended to live on an EV.

It's also not clear to me what advantage there is to using an always-on auxiliary 12V output to power the SoC gauge rather than the 12V battery... In general, I like to see absolutely nothing draining power from the traction battery when the EV is off and the charger is disconnected. After all, the traction battery is usually the most expensive part of the EV, while the 12V battery is usually the least expensive; it doesn't make sense to sacrifice the former to protect the latter!


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Putting the ability to adjust the output voltage would require installing a trimpot on the pc board, and trimpots are notoriously susceptible to vibration, and swings in humidity and temperature. They are seriously _verboten_ for any device intended to live on an EV.


I doubt anyone needs to fine tune the voltage, but may just want to set it. Could be done with 1 -2 swiches, or via jumpers. Would anyone need something besides 12.5, 13.5, or 14.5 V?


----------



## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Actually a trimpot is just one way to adjust the settings of the charger. I have a charger design that allows setting both V and I using any of its interfaces which include, ethernet, CAN and RS-485. Its a very stable and isolated design that uses 20kHz switching to achieve small form factor. The bridge switching is very clever and through soft-switching it acheives very high efficiency and low heat generation. Its currently running at 6kW but could run up to 20kW quite easily. No trimpots needed.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

hbthink said:


> Actually a trimpot is just one way to adjust the settings of the charger....


Aye, hbthink... we well know the value of a *programmable* interface, especially *ethernet*. We were most recently talking about a dc-dc converter, not a charger; you can't really afford to incorporate ethernet into a dc-dc converter, nor is there any real value in making such a product programmable.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> It's also not clear to me what advantage there is to using an always-on auxiliary 12V output to power the SoC gauge rather than the 12V battery... In general, I like to see absolutely nothing draining power from the traction battery when the EV is off and the charger is disconnected. After all, the traction battery is usually the most expensive part of the EV, while the 12V battery is usually the least expensive; it doesn't make sense to sacrifice the former to protect the latter!


Good point but some people don't use a 12V battery, which might not be a great idea anyway. Even with a 12V battery if a car has a lot of phantom loads when switched off it might kill the 12V battery if it's not a large one. I guess an auto low voltage 12V disconnect could prevent that. As for adjustable, or selectable, output voltage it might be nice to change for different battery chemistries, but probably not necessary.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

what about a DC-DC that shuts itself off if the LVC hits a certain level to avoid draining the pack.


----------



## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

frodus said:


> what about a DC-DC that shuts itself off if the LVC hits a certain level to avoid draining the pack.


I like the sound of this options but it sounds like something that would be fairly easy to implement with a 12V relay. Or am I missing something?

I'd say all you really need in a DC/DC is something that is reliable, robust, allows for a fairly large input voltage (300V sounds about right), reasonable power output and looks kind of nice (hell, I'd pay $100 for an Evnetics case to put my Iota in ).


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure if the DC/DC is functioning properly. The suggestion is that a failing DC/DC could kill a pack, so if it's LVC feature also failed you're still screwed. To avoid shutting off during voltage sag you'd have to set it pretty low anyway, and if you weren't bottom balanced or had closely matched cells you might kill some cells. Not a bad feature to include though as an extra safety measure.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> It's also not clear to me what advantage there is to using an always-on auxiliary 12V output to power the SoC gauge rather than the 12V battery... In general, I like to see absolutely nothing draining power from the traction battery when the EV is off and the charger is disconnected. After all, the traction battery is usually the most expensive part of the EV, while the 12V battery is usually the least expensive; it doesn't make sense to sacrifice the former to protect the latter!


Either the situation like mine where there is no place to put a 12V battery or where the vehicle may not be driven very frequently like in the case of the EV the local community college converted. It doesn't get driven enough to charge up the 12V battery so it has gone dead several times and then can't start because there is not enough energy to close the contactors. Why should you have to jump start an EV when the traction pack is sitting at 99% SOC?

While the traction pack is usually the most expensive it is also has a significant capacity compared to a 12V battery. It would take a very long time to drain a traction pack just on the parasitic loads alone.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

GizmoEV said:


> . Why should you have to jump start an EV when the traction pack is sitting at 99% SOC?
> 
> .


i've had to do that a few times recently (I have a dying 12v battery that isn't holding a charge too good). No big deal, a quarter spans the contactor terminals perfectly  And I definately fall into the "I'd rather kill my 12v battery than my pack" camp. 

I also like to turn off my high voltage breaker when the car will be sitting off-charger for more than a few hours, just in case... With a 12v battery and an ignition switched DC/DC this is fine. And it makes me feel a little better that someone won't crash into my parked car and start a EV-image destroying fire.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

dladd said:


> And I definately fall into the "I'd rather kill my 12v battery than my pack" camp.


Has this happened to people? The DC-DC killed off the traction pack? In over 5 years of having my rig I've never had a problem with the pack getting drained by the DC-DC and I've left it sit for several weeks without even plugging it in when on vacation and/or having a mechanical issue to resolve. To me this sounds like unfounded fear looking for a reason to support it.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

GizmoEV said:


> Has this happened to people? The DC-DC killed off the traction pack?


probably not. Unfounded fear and doubt. Still though, the battery pack was 70% of the cost of my whole car, I'm not taking any chances. Even if the risks are irrationally unlikely...

I shouldn't be posting in this thread anyway, I'm too cheap to be an evnetics customer...


----------



## StanSimmons (Sep 3, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Putting the ability to adjust the output voltage would require installing a trimpot on the pc board, and trimpots are notoriously susceptible to vibration, and swings in humidity and temperature. They are seriously _verboten_ for any device intended to live on an EV.
> 
> It's also not clear to me what advantage there is to using an always-on auxiliary 12V output to power the SoC gauge rather than the 12V battery... In general, I like to see absolutely nothing draining power from the traction battery when the EV is off and the charger is disconnected. After all, the traction battery is usually the most expensive part of the EV, while the 12V battery is usually the least expensive; it doesn't make sense to sacrifice the former to protect the latter!


Yeah, vibration on the motorcycle is going to be bitch... I plan on replacing the trimpot on the Mean Well with the appropriate resistor(s). I just hope the circuit board won't have any lamination problems. 

Space is going to be tight enough on the bike that I decided to remove the aux battery.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Has this happened to people? The DC-DC killed off the traction pack?


I would worry less about that and more over a short on the 12 Volt side that would make the DC/DC brown out enough so the fuse doesn't blow. If I ever get around actually converting a car some year (don't hold your breath  ) I would definitely not trust having only a DC/DC without at least a small MC-battery as backup.

Where I live we have less than 8 hours day light in December/January which means that when you drive to work it's pitch dark and when you drive home from work it's pitch dark again! Getting a brown out or a blown up DC/DC would mean that you don't only suddenly go virtually blind, you also go invisible. In rush hour! I experienced that once because of a faulty relay, it is nothing I want to experience again...

Just a few Ah would be enough, just so the battery can produce the current peak to blow the fuse or keep the lights running so you can limp home or at least do a controlled stop.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Has this happened to people? The DC-DC killed off the traction pack? ...


Yep, I've seen it happen to at least one person locally. Of course, that person doesn't drive the EV much but it took about 2 weeks for the DC-DC to totally drain the LFP battery pack down.


----------



## FarFromStock (Mar 16, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Yep, I've seen it happen to at least one person locally. Of course, that person doesn't drive the EV much but it took about 2 weeks for the DC-DC to totally drain the LFP battery pack down.


It has happened to me too after leaving the car parked, not plugged in for 2 weeks. Very frustrating! But I guess that's just the way it is when the controller, DC-DC, and charger are all from different manufacturers.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

It sounds like there are many situations so having the option of an always on pin would be useful but it would not have to be used. Of those who have had a pack drained how much of that was from poor design or a grossly inefficient DC-DC. The DC-DC I have has a Quiescent Current of at most 10mA. Maybe it is that along with the very light load I have on all the time. Maybe it is because I have a 12.8kWh pack that it doesn't matter if I don't charge for 2 months.

Qer's point about a fuse not getting blown because of a low DC-DC output makes sense. Maybe the best solution, in addition to an always on pin for those who want it, is to have a relay which shuts off when the 12V battery gets low. Then in the event of a problem the relay can be temporarily bypassed to get the EV going which will charge up the 12V battery again. This could be as simple as a momentary on switch to turn on the relay while the EV is started up. As soon as the bypass switch is let go it is back to normal.


----------



## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Like anything, there is always a market for the cheap China crap for those on a budget. Wasted too much of my money there, in hindsight. The flipside is there is also a market for premium products that are more reliable and have more features. I don't think the blanket statement is true that everyone will just buy cheap China crap so there is no money in that market...

I have a Zilla, not a Soliton, but I got a good deal on my controller and if I did things again the Soliton was definitely a solid-looking product. A DC/DC made by the same guys would be almost a sure win in my book provided the extra price actually bought said features/ruggedness (and gotta love keeping my money in the States).


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dladd said:


> ...I shouldn't be posting in this thread anyway, I'm too cheap to be an evnetics customer...


Says the guy who bought our *throttle*... 




notailpipe said:


> Like anything, there is always a market for the cheap China crap for those on a budget.


Sure, we are all guilty of this to some degree. Hell, I've bought plenty of "tools" from Harbor Freight...  I usually regret it, but sometimes the stuff is just too cheap to pass up, like a brass dead blow hammer (great for repairing electronics) for $5. I mean, who cares if the head flies off and brains the guy running the CNC machine, right? Worst-case, clean off the blood-n-guts and turn the brass in for scrap as it's probably worth $5 right there! 



notailpipe said:


> I have a Zilla, not a Soliton, but I got a good deal on my controller and if I did things again the Soliton was definitely a solid-looking product. A DC/DC made by the same guys would be almost a sure win in my book provided the extra price actually bought said features/ruggedness (and gotta love keeping my money in the States).


Aye - you chose a solid controller, so I can't fault you for that.

Anyway, I have some ideas for a dc-dc converter circuit that would be especially well-suited to the EV environment. Depending on how long parts for the current project are backordered maybe I'll sketch it out enough to get a handle on the cost to make it.

We put the charger project on hold mainly because we can't make up our minds on the approach; there is the unique way, which suits our temperaments, and then there is the usual way, just done better.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Jeffery,

On the EVDL you mentioned that running a rig without a 12V battery (or caps or something) that even with a 1kW DC-DC that there is a chance that the controller could shut down turning on the headlights, wipers, etc. Is this because the initial surge is so great, though brief, that the DC-DC can't respond quick enough? Maybe the reason I've been getting along just fine without a 12V battery is that my controller operates independent of the 12V system.

I know you response doesn't affect my Gizmo but I'm working on what I will do in my full size conversion when I can finally get going on it.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> Jeffery,


Argh... it's Jeff_rey_, not Jeffery.



GizmoEV said:


> On the EVDL you mentioned that running a rig without a 12V battery (or caps or something) that even with a 1kW DC-DC that there is a chance that the controller could shut down turning on the headlights, wipers, etc. *Is this because the initial surge is so great, though brief, that the DC-DC can't respond quick enough?*


Sort of. It's a feedback loop bandwidth problem, sure, but in most cases the peak current demanded by the headlights or whatever, in conjunction with the lumped impedance of the wiring, causes the 12V line to plummet. A battery - or several thousand uF of capacitance - can fill in the gap, so to speak. The battery has the advantage of also being able to power the 12V electronics in the vehicle for a meaningful amount of time if the dc-dc converter croaks.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Argh... it's Jeff_rey_, not Jeffery.


Yes, I know. A bit of dyslexia at times. No matter how hard I try I still do what my dad did even though as a kid I swore I wouldn't do that. It does keep my math & science students on their toes, however. I probably should have mentioned that I'm a member of the DNA ... the National Dyslexic Association. 

Thanks,


----------



## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Now I'm almost hoping my project has delays, if it means I can get quality Evnetics components.

For a DC-DC, I would pay mid $400's for 200 V input, 40 amp output. I agree with switching the output off when the EV and charger are off.

I'm a big fan of Evnetics.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

On the DC-DC, what about two outputs on the converter. One goes to the 12V battery and the other is the virtual battery posts to which the 12V system is connected. Under normal operation the two outputs are in parallel so they act the same as if the DC-DC was hooked to the battery terminals along with the rest of the 12V system. When the car is off, the DC-DC monitors the voltage of the battery and switches off a contactor when the battery gets too low so that the parasitic loads don't just kill the battery. The DC-DC could use the pack battery to do this. When the owner comes back to the car and finds that it won't turn on the driver can just press a temporary over ride button on the DC-DC and it will directly supply the 12V necessary to get the car started and then go back to normal mode of charging the 12V battery and running the system.

This would protect the 12V battery from over discharge. It would also make a safe way for a driver to "jump start" the vehicle in an emergency.

However, if the DC-DC has an always on connection to the pack any way, it could sense the key being turned on and automatically do the magic any way. The DC-DC in my Gizmo has a switched output which is controlled by sensing a voltage coming from the key and does not use any contactors or relays to switch on/off the switched output.


----------

