# EV Acting Weird



## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

My car will drive fine for the first 3 miles then the car will become jerky; acceleration sluggish. If you go over a certain speed/amps there will be a loss off power. At night,all lights will dim and eventually go out. Once the jerkiness starts, the car becomes slower and slower. What kind of problem does sound like?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It sounds to me like some bad connections or possibly a cell that is going bad. As things heat up, thermal expansion can make things worse. Try removing, cleaning, and retorquing all connections. If you see lots of corrosion on one or more cells they may be the culprits. If you can feel around for hot spots after you shut down the car that's a good method too, but be careful.

It may also be in the auxiliary circuit which feeds the lights but is supplemented by the DC-DC converter. 

I don't have a road EV but I work with high current equipment and connections seem to cause 90% of the problems, especially once they are out in the field and get bounced around.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

What kind of batteries and how many of them do you have in your EV? Do you have any instrumentation for them (volt/amp/soc meter)? How about battery for accessory or is it DC/DC directly to 12V system? Or tapped from main pack?

Sounds like your pack voltage is sagging too low and controller is cutting power in attemp to save batteries. It could also be contactor coil getting less than 12V and opening/closing during voltage sag. This would apply if your batteries sag low and 12V system is tapped from them.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> My car will drive fine for the first 3 miles then the car will become jerky; acceleration sluggish. If you go over a certain speed/amps there will be a loss off power. At night,all lights will dim and eventually go out. Once the jerkiness starts, the car becomes slower and slower. What kind of problem does sound like?


Is this the same EV? http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/help-1980-lectric-leopard-75379.html Did you take the advice offered on that thread?


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Yes it is Major. I cleaned up the connections. I am running 16 6v Energizer batteries from 2011.

Seems to me it has something to do with the F/R turning on/off. As I drove into my driveway it started to do it. When I came to a complete stop, the F/R was going on/off like mad so I turned the key off.

I can drive 1/4 mile using full acceleration. Once it starts doing it, it gets worse.

What may be the conclusion?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> Yes it is Major. I cleaned up the connections. I am running 16 6v Energizer batteries from 2011.
> 
> Seems to me it has something to do with the F/R turning on/off. As I drove into my driveway it started to do it. When I came to a complete stop, the F/R was going on/off like mad so I turned the key off.
> 
> ...


Cleaning connections would be a good start. What about some of the other recommendations? Got a circuit diagram?

F/R usually means Forward/Reverse. Do you actually have a F/R contactor set? I don't recall seeing it in the previous photos. Most conversions and the original Lectric Leopard used the transmission reverse and had no F/R.

It is hard if not impossible to reach a conclusion with the limited info you provide. Do your contactors run on 12V? What is the 12V supply? Do you have a voltmeter and ammeter for your pack?


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

I'll make the diagram later. Just wanted to say that the F/R is the thing below the controller in the picture. Its odd cause other Leopard photos I don't see that F/R.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Also, is the setup for all evs the same? So if I found an installation blueprint, that would work for the renault?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> I'll make the diagram later. Just wanted to say that the F/R is the thing below the controller in the picture. Its odd cause other Leopard photos I don't see that F/R.


Do you mean this?



monkmonkey said:


>


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> Also, is the setup for all evs the same?


No, not by a long shot.



monkmonkey said:


> So if I found an installation blueprint, that would work for the renault?


Not sure what you mean. Check against what is in your EV. I can tell you that what you showed in the photos is not the original Lectric Leopard system.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

major said:


> Do you mean this?


Yes. Thats the part thats going on/off. I believe its the cause of the problem.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> Yes. Thats the part thats going on/off. I believe its the cause of the problem.


That is not an F/R (Forward/Reverse) contactor set, it appears to be the main contactor. And yes, if it is going off and on, you have a big problem. I recommend you not drive it on the street until you get it fixed. You can start by answering some of the questions I've been asking. What supplies the coil voltage for the contactor?


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Here is a scan of the blueprint here...

http://s848.photobucket.com/albums/...onkmonkey23/?action=view&current=eleopard.jpg


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm not sure I understand this sketch:










It looks like there are two battery packs wired in series. The upper pack is charged by the LiIon charger, while the negative of the lower pack is connected to the controller (-) terminal. The top (+) of the pack goes through a fuse and the contactor (with precharge) to the controller (B+) and one terminal of the motor (Field?). There are two motor terminals connected together (Armature and Field?) to the controller (A) terminal. And the other motor terminal (Armature?) connects through another fuse to the controller (M-) terminal. So I'm assuming that the controller M- uses PWM to adjust current through the series wound motor and it shunts some current from B+ to A for field weakening? 

But what really confuses me is the ON/OFF switch which connects the midpoint of the battery packs to ground. This won't do anything unless something else is connected to ground. I'll make a WAG and say that the coil of the contactor (which is not shown) connects from the lower battery pack (-) to ground, and the switch completes the circuit. If these grounds are the car chassis, rather than a separate wire, then the connection may be intermittent. AFAIK most EVs do not like to have anything grounded. But if the bottom battery pack is actually the 12VDC accessory circuit the its (-) terminal should be connected to the chassis so the lights and fans and other things will work as usual, although I think most modern cars do not rely on the chassis for current return. 

I had to redraw the schematic. It looks like a bucket of worms!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PStechPaul said:


> I'm not sure I understand this sketch:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look back at his photos http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75379 And check the standard wiring diagram for a Curtis. http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/1209.1221b.1221c.1231c product manual.pdf page 9.

He has no LiIon charger. It is an Elcon, which is typically a higher voltage "pack" charger but the diagram shows it connected across a single 6 volt battery. Clearly a big mistake.

His symptoms of contactor chatter lead me to believe he has no idea what's going on and may not have his 12V aux battery charged (if he even has one). Then there is the switch grounding the pack at 72V  Some yellow wire running from mid pack to somewhere 

I don't know where monk got this mess, or why, but like I said in his previous thread, it is a hazard if driven on the public street. He needs to rewire the thing properly. And likely replace some of the parts. I wouldn't trust that contactor from the looks of it.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Where would a reference be so I can correct all mistakes?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> Where would a reference be so I can correct all mistakes?


A lot can be found on this forum. I also suggest books. Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant is a good one.

Do you have a 12V auxiliary battery on the car? What is the measured voltage of it?


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

major said:


> A lot can be found on this forum. I also suggest books. Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant is a good one.
> 
> Do you have a 12V auxiliary battery on the car? What is the measured voltage of it?


No. Aux comes from total voltage. Same as my citicar. Works fine on citicar.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I've pretty much given up trying to help. In a case like this I think the OP needs to enlist the services of a professional to just rip out everything and redo it according to the manual. So I'm just continuing this out of curiosity and as a learning experience about this sort of EV using series wound traction motors. 

From the previous post, it appears that one terminal of the contactor coil is connected to the chassis, and the other goes to one of the main battery terminals:









So it's anybody's guess as to the voltage being applied to the coil and how much voltage drop and intermittent connectivity may be present. At this point I might put down my magnifying glass and prepare my pipe and say, "Elementary, my dear Watson". A couple minutes of testing with a multimeter in the hands of a skilled technician should determine the cause absolutely. And even a skilled mechanic might be able to just clean up the connections and the vehicle may work as well as it did originally.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

Not very familiar with that motor, is A2 on the curtis supposed to be connected that way ? I left that connection open on my 1221b


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mk4gti said:


> Not very familiar with that motor, is A2 on the curtis supposed to be connected that way ? I left that connection open on my 1221b





major said:


> And check the standard wiring diagram for a Curtis. http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/1209.1221b.1221c.1231c%20product%20manual.pdf page 9.


Shows A2 connection. It is optional. Works just fine with it wired as shown in the Curtis manual.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> No. Aux comes from total voltage. Same as my citicar. Works fine on citicar.


O.K. We don't know what the coil voltage is supposed to be on that contactor. And what powers the lights on the car? And is the charger actually connected per the "blueprint"?

Monk, do you have a voltmeter? If not get one. Measure the voltage on each of your 16 batteries and report back.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

So do you have an accessory battery or not?

What supplies your 12v for lights, horn, radio etc?

If you are tapping into a couple of batteris from the main pack directly (which is not recommended) then this is most likely your problem.

The drawing you provided is either badly drawn, or you have a seriously bad setup.

My advice would be to read up as much as possible. Rip it all out and start again, as has already been mentioned. Just dont start anything until you fully understand it.

Take a look at the diagram on this page and have a read of the rest of the thread.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/electric-car-conversion-project-forkenswift-33-26.html

Also watch Gav's YouTube videos for a good overview.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/gavs-ev-conversion-youtube-videos-and-21828.html
http://www.kiwiev.com/

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

major said:


> O.K. We don't know what the coil voltage is supposed to be on that contactor. And what powers the lights on the car? And is the charger actually connected per the "blueprint"?
> 
> Monk, do you have a voltmeter? If not get one. Measure the voltage on each of your 16 batteries and report back.


I get 6v on each. Also, on the contactor, there are 2 male connections on the coil. The yellow cable in the picture splices into a red one then that female connector connects to the top coil connection. These cables are spliced into the front and rear lights.

So knowing this, the contactor and running lights are getting juice from the yellow connection.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> I get 6v on each.


Is that 6.000 volts? If it is just 6 volts, the batteries are nearly discharged. You could be more helpful. Have you ever charged the batteries? If you turn on the charger, does the voltage on each battery increase? How much?



monkmonkey said:


> Also, on the contactor, there are 2 male connections on the coil. The yellow cable in the picture splices into a red one then that female connector connects to the top coil connection.


What turns on the contactor coil? The key switch? Does it come on now? When it is on, what is the voltage across the coil? Does the contactor have a part number on it? And numbers on it? Like a coil voltage?



monkmonkey said:


> These cables are spliced into the front and rear lights.


So your lights come on when you switch on the contactor?



monkmonkey said:


> So knowing this, the contactor and running lights are getting juice from the yellow connection.


From your previous thread pictures, it looks like the yellow and black wires tap off 3 batteries mid-pack for 18 volts and ground the high voltage pack to the car chassis in the process.

Again, this is a terrible installation.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

I have charged the batteries overnight and voltage is still the same. I don't think their charging. Probable not hooked up right. The red wire coming out of the charger should go to the most positive battery and black one is the ground, correct?

Key switch turns on/off contactor, along with that on/off switch. For some reason its not turning on now. Its a HB Electrical, part number 30B1200. It looks pretty old.

Lights would come on when swich for lights are pulled out.


Also, when I first aquired this car (recently), I was able to drive it 20-30 miles no problems.

Where should the elcon charger wires be connected at?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

major said:


> From your previous thread pictures, it looks like the yellow and black wires tap off 3 batteries mid-pack for 18 volts and ground the high voltage pack to the car chassis in the process.
> 
> Again, this is a terrible installation.


Wow. Does that car come with a life insurance policy?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> I have charged the batteries overnight and voltage is still the same. I don't think their charging. Probable not hooked up right. The red wire coming out of the charger should go to the most positive battery and black one is the ground, correct?


No. We have mentioned several times not to ground the high voltage pack. Black goes to the most negative battery negative terminal. Red goes to the most positive battery positive terminal. 

Are you sure it is a 96 volt charger?

And please use at least 2 decimal places on the voltage measurements. Like 6.00V. Or 6.08V. Or 6.17V. Measure each of the 16 batteries and make a list before you charge. Then repeat after charging. Post the list.




monkmonkey said:


> Key switch turns on/off contactor, along with that on/off switch. For some reason its not turning on now. Its a HB Electrical, part number 30B1200. It looks pretty old.


Turn the switches on and measure the voltage on the contactor coil.

Google does not turn up that part number. It does show a new version of what appears to be the same design contactor. It has a 24V coil. I think you need to get a new contactor. I suggest the Kilovac with economizer.

Also, get a 12V battery and use it for all the accessories (lights, fans, etc, and the contactor coil). Keep the high voltage battery free of any and all taps (as in yellow wires).


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

I don't want to be insulting but I'd seriously look at doing some research before you hurt yourself.

Have a watch of gav's videos as I suggested in an earlier post and read a few build threads.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

That 500 amp fuse on the left side is blown, which is why the contactor won't work. Will any 500 amp fuse work that will fit or is there a certain type?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> That 500 amp fuse on the left side is blown, which is why the contactor won't work.


How do you know the 500A fuse is blown? If it is blown, why did it blow? Without knowing why it blew, you should not simply replace it with a new one. Assuming it is blown, you can trace out and track down a short if that was the cause. Correct the issue and then replace the fuse.

And why would the blown fuse interfere with the contactor working? Hint: It does not.



monkmonkey said:


> Will any 500 amp fuse work that will fit or is there a certain type?


Fuses have ratings, and there are reasons for those ratings. I kind of doubt that fuse which is in there meets the requirements. It does not instill me with confidence, similar to my opinion of the workmanship of the entire installation. Many fuses having that form factor carry a 32 volt rating. 

So, I recommend a proper fuse rated for at least 100 Volts DC and 400 Amps.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

major said:


> How do you know the 500A fuse is blown? If it is blown, why did it blow? Without knowing why it blew, you should not simply replace it with a new one. Assuming it is blown, you can trace out and track down a short if that was the cause. Correct the issue and then replace the fuse.


The fuse does not have contiguity when measured in ohms. Plus, an auto parts store confirmed it. That fuse sends power to everything past it, so that would include the contactor and controller. 

The fuse used was a Buss 500amp. Don't know what the volts rating is.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

The contactor should still "work" as it is controlled by the 12v side. But yeah if there is no HV in, there won't be any out...

Take the time to study how these circuits are *supposed* to be wired, rip everything out and start fresh. Before you hurt yourself !


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> The fuse does not have contiguity when measured in ohms. Plus, an auto parts store confirmed it. That fuse sends power to everything past it, so that would include the contactor and controller.





major said:


> ...... If it is blown, why did it blow? Without knowing why it blew, you should not simply replace it with a new one. Assuming it is blown, you can trace out and track down a short if that was the cause. Correct the issue and then replace the fuse.
> 
> 
> And why would the blown fuse interfere with the contactor working? Hint: It does not.


The contactor will still close even with a blown power circuit fuse if the control circuit (that powers the coil) is intact. The blown 500A fuse is not the reason the contactor doesn't work. Although you are correct, it would not conduct high current to the controller.

Why did the fuse blow????????


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

At last report I thought the OP's EV would run for a while and then lose power or become erratic and then stop. With the fuse blown this should not be possible, and otherwise the fuse is not in the correct part of the circuit and not providing proper protection. Is it still mounted so that the current goes through the steel nuts on the studs? They may have overheated and caused the fuse to become intermittent and it might not have continuity at a few volts from a multimeter, but full pack voltage might "jump" enogh to get current for a while.

But as I said, this seems like a lost cause. The OP needs to get hands-on professional (or at least skilled and experienced) help. This is turning into a comedy/tragedy of errors.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

My fuse arrived today. I reworked the battery setup so now the right top battery is now the aux. The yellow cable is now connected to the + aux. Now the accessories do not work, nor the ignition. But I can turn the car on/off with the on/off switch under the hood. I also connected the red coil contactor wire to the fuse connection. Now it doesn't go on/off as it did before. 

I drove it a couple miles and it did well, even though the batteries are low and not charging.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Sounds like traction and AUX batteries/circuits are being mixed with wild abandon. The two should not touch. It's a wonder you've survived to page 4 of this thread.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

..........


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Sounds like traction and AUX batteries/circuits are being mixed with wild abandon. The two should not touch. It's a wonder you've survived to page 4 of this thread.


The two are separate now.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Oh...ok. I thought you meant the top traction battery was now the AUX.

Maybe it's time for a new, clean wiring diagram? 

You should probably do two, one with physical locations and existing wiring colors, and another that's purely logical to make things easier to see.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

monkmonkey said:


> My fuse arrived today.


So you don't know why the fuse blew, but replaced it anyway  



monkmonkey said:


> I reworked the battery setup so now the right top battery is now the aux. The yellow cable is now connected to the + aux. Now the accessories do not work, nor the ignition. But I can turn the car on/off with the on/off switch under the hood. I also connected the red coil contactor wire to the fuse connection. Now it doesn't go on/off as it did before.


So what voltage runs to the contactor coil? What is + aux? You have the red wire on the coil connected to what fuse? The 500A fuse? 



monkmonkey said:


> I drove it a couple miles and it did well, even though the batteries are low and not charging.


So the only way you have to turn it off is under the hood???? And you drove it on the street???? You are dangerous


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

I think the wiring diagram monkmonkey drew isn't correct. Previous pictures tell that charger positive lead is going to contactor and then through the fuse to the battery pack positive. If pack fuse was blown then no batteries were charged.

Monkmonkey, your charger has led indicator on its side. This tells what charger is doing. The led might be facing towards firewall or in worst case towards main pack (and thus is invisible). Plug your charger to the wall and find out what this led does. It blinks a color code. Write the sequence to a piece of paper and post here.


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

mora said:


> I think the wiring diagram monkmonkey drew isn't correct. Previous pictures tell that charger positive lead is going to contactor and then through the fuse to the battery pack positive. If pack fuse was blown then no batteries were charged.
> 
> Monkmonkey, your charger has led indicator on its side. This tells what charger is doing. The led might be facing towards firewall or in worst case towards main pack (and thus is invisible). Plug your charger to the wall and find out what this led does. It blinks a color code. Write the sequence to a piece of paper and post here.


Never saw that indicator before. It is blinking red-green-red-green, which indicates the batteries are not connected (according to Elcon). I have the chargers red positive cable on the bottom left battery which should be most positive. Black negative cable is grounded.

Regarding the diagram...I moved the chargers red cable from contactor to bottom left battery in front of car.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you stick a DVM on the charger outputs, what voltage do you see?


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## monkmonkey (Mar 23, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If you stick a DVM on the charger outputs, what voltage do you see?


I get 0.13 volts


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

monkmonkey said:


> Black negative cable is grounded.


This means you must turn the car on using your current on/off switch for charger to work. This is bad.

Move that charger negative lead to most negative battery terminal. Charger should now detect the battery. Observe that led light again and tell us what it blinks.

While you are at it check voltage from each individual battery. These voltages should be pretty close to each other. 11.00V and 12.00V look like they are very close together but they aren't. Even that 1.00V means a lot. I suspect you have at least one battery (likely your aux battery) that is sitting much lower than others.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I would not feel comfortable about giving any advice about this without an up-to-date, neat wiring diagram. I think there was one posted from the Curtis controller manual which showed how it should be connected. And using the car chassis as a ground for any sort of connection is bound to be unreliable and perhaps dangerous. 

Once the OP has provided a proper diagram, or if the car has been wired according to the official schematic, he should make a marked-up image with voltmeter readings indicated across each battery and across the contactor coil and contacts and other points in the circuit. And another set of readings when the motor is running, and another when the battery is charging. 

But until then I'm not going to suggest moving any cables around or any sort of rewiring. I don't want to read in the news that somebody's EV blew up in their face! 

Here's the schematic. Please use it and and mark it up with your DMM readings and any deviations from the standard:










And here is a JPEG version with the charger sketched in and some sample voltages. You can take it from there...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

monkmonkey said:


> I get 0.13 volts


So your pack voltage is .13 volts. Get an extension for your DVM and start from the positive connection of the charger and check voltage from there to each battery. It shoudl go up in even increments until you get to the negative charger connection. Find the problem, it's not tough.


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## mhud (Oct 19, 2009)

It sounds like there are plenty of things to track down, but I'll share something that happened to me in my '73 beetle. 

I left the original wiring in tact, and the leads on the aux battery were corroded. This meant that some vibrations would cause my main contactor to fluctuate occasionally. 

The symptoms were somewhat similar to yours. Traction power would completely cut out, sometimes rapidly--mimicking a sputter. However, headlights would work, as would signals. They'd tolerate a lower voltage than my main contactor would. 

So, once you've tracked down your major wiring, battery balancing, and safety issues, check that your main contactor is getting a steady 12V during operation.


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