# VW T2 -76



## Cera (11 mo ago)

Hey'a from the Funland that is Finland!

Slowly trying to get started with my T2 build. 










This bus used to belong to my granddad and has pretty significant meaning to me as I remember it from my childhood too. Actually I remember that the first car I wanted even before having a license was a T2 due to this one. Of course I could never afford one back then and it'd probably have made a horrible first car. 

Granddad eventually drove it to Estonia where he had settled for retirement and used it for transporting guests from the harbour city Tallinn to his lodgings further in the countryside. The bus suffered some sort of engine failure there in the first decade of 2000's and was left into a shed to wait for repairs. Originally with T1 engine, the Estonian friends of my granddad managed to source a supposedly new T4 engine for it but the engine swap was never completed. The engine they found is some form of abomination from German military, it has EMF shielded wires and supposedly runs on 24V system. I wonder why that didn't work out. 










Anyway, come year 2019 and granddad's health had started to fail. He wished for me to have the bus since he knew I had liked it, so we rented a trailer and a van for the rescue mission. And there it was. We talked a bit with granddad about how cool it'd be to have the original "hippie van" to run on modern green tech, but considered that completely unrealistic back then.










Granddad has since passed, and this silly pandemic has taken most of my energy and effort since I work in healthcare so I haven't had much to give for the bus. But now it's finally looking like I could have some time for this as well. When I first got the bus, the idea was simply to get it running "any means possible" so I put up project threads on Samba and whatnot, but the more I've read and the more I've learned about the reliability of the original T1, the challenges and the parts needed for the T4 conversion, especially with some weird 24V starters and alternators, the more it's started to seem like going electric isn't that unrealistic after all, and could even be much better option in a long run.

I've just put my motorbike on sale for financing this project, and I'm learning the ropes of EV conversion and the build I want to go with. I do have some experience playing around with older vehicles, but EV world is new to me. But hey, what's the fun if there's no new learning path to follow. 

Bus itself is in a decent condition for one that's been sitting 10-ish years in a cold shed. No major rust, no missing pieces. Just two mouse nests.  I've cleaned it all and removed everything but dash. Trying to recruit some friend to help with dropping the engine out next. (Surprisingly difficult when all my friends seem to want nothing to do with heavy oily machinery  but I'll manage.) I plan on selling the T4 afterwards. I also have the original T1 unit in pieces, which I plan to clean and keep as part of the bus's history, but doubtfully will even try to repair that.

This needn't go fast nor be comfortable even, this needs to be reliable and have a decent range.  Regen is must, heaters are not. Right now I've been thinking of keeping the original transmission and going with Hyper9 HV (peak 89.5kW), 1st gen Leaf (80kW) or AC-51 (peak 65.9kW) depending on what I can source easily here in the North EU. I briefly considered Tesla SDU as well, but our legislation has limits for maximum motor power after powerplant swaps so that dream was crushed quickly. My unconfirmed math would result into 100kW max allowed power output from the motor, but I'm still bit unsure how I need to prove that and if it can be electrically limited. Need to have a chat with the inspection/MOT people before committing to any direction. 

Anyway, first steps is removing the old engine and some welding, going over suspension and steering parts as well as brakes etc, whilst simultaneously planning for the future. I have found a company in Finland dealing old Tesla battery units and am planning to contact them for pricing when I've some better plans sketched out. Right now the idea of "false bottom" for the battery units inside the cargo space sounds most desirable. There is also a one resto/conversion shop in Finland if I run out of juice doing this on my own, but I'd rather at least try first.


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## Evbeddy (Jan 5, 2020)

Welcome Cera, that was a lovely story about your grandad.

Id be looking at the nissan leaf drive train if I was you. There are heaps of them around for parts and are quite well understood and well made.

You could use the nissan leaf gearbox (my recommendation) or make an adapter to fit it to the t2 gearbox. 

As far as controlling the inverter, alot of people on here have had success using the resolver ev controller while the controllers on open inverter are also popular. 

Lots of decisions ahead of you.....looking forward to see how you get on 😀


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## TeZla (Feb 18, 2021)

Cera said:


> I briefly considered Tesla SDU as well, but our legislation has limits for maximum motor power after powerplant swaps so that dream was crushed quickly. My unconfirmed math would result into 100kW max allowed power output from the motor, but I'm still bit unsure how I need to prove that and if it can be electrically limited. Need to have a chat with the inspection/MOT people before committing to any direction.


When you speak to the inspection people, ask them if they are looking for a peak power figure, or a continuous power figure for the electric motor.
Here in Australia, we are fairly strict about engine conversions having too much power or engines that are way oversized. For the electric conversions, they want to know the continuous rating of the motor as its always possible to 'overpower' an electric motor temporarily so it would be easy enough to circumvent the rules by underpowering the motor for inspection, then overpowering it for the street.
A Tesla SDU has a peak power of ~220kw at 400 volts, But is considered to have a continuous rating of 35kw, which sounds a lot more reasonable to the engineer and inspector, but still makes for a very potent powerplant.

Your bus looks really cool, it should make for a nice conversion.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

TeZla said:


> When you speak to the inspection people, ask them if they are looking for a peak power figure, or a continuous power figure for the electric motor.


Yeah this is one of the main questions I want answers to  also I'm curious what kind of proof/papers do they want to confirm the power, since as I've understood it, electric motor power is mostly defined by the inverter used? Also if listing the manufacturer peak/continuous on paper is enough, or if they want some kind of dyno to prove "actual power". If they accept dyno, then downtuning electrically would be a possibility as well.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Find yourself a copy of the COMPLEAT IDIOTS GUIDE TO THE VOLKSWAGEN, probably in a library. The title explains much, and is a fun read for how to for the mechanical systems. Dropping a motor can be a one person effort and at one time I was proficient enough to taking my daughter to kindergarten, go home, and remanufactured the engine, then pick her up at lunch on a new engine.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> Yeah this is one of the main questions I want answers to  also I'm curious what kind of proof/papers do they want to confirm the power, since as I've understood it, electric motor power is mostly defined by the inverter used?


The physical limitations for a given motor are the current which the motor can tolerate and the speed that it can turn, mechanically. In most cases the inverter is more limited in both current and power than the motor, and in most cases the battery is even more limiting in power. Part of the current limitation is overheating, which is the source of the high peak power ratings and much lower continuous ratings: a lot of current can be tolerated for a short time, until the motor gets too hot.



Cera said:


> Also if listing the manufacturer peak/continuous on paper is enough, or if they want some kind of dyno to prove "actual power". If they accept dyno, then downtuning electrically would be a possibility as well.


That's likely to be a challenge, as Tesla motors are built by (or at least exclusively for) Tesla, making them the only authoritative source of specifications, and they would never mention the low continuous power rating - they're all about superlatives. Motor manufacturers (rather than car manufacturers which make motors for themselves) are more likely to publish proper complete specifications. I think that a dyno test is problematic, because a test could simply be conducted at low power - it doesn't prove that higher power is not possible.


Do you really want a high-power T2 anyway? Anything significantly higher than the original engine output seems like enough to me.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You may not want a heater in Finland, but your battery will. It needs to be kept above about 15C when driving or charging.

"This needs to have...decent range" Please quantify your ballpark numbers here...decent to one person is 60km, to another it's 500km.

You're brave to do this given you sound like you're on your own as far as your friends go. Hopefully really stubborn as well.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

piotrsko said:


> Dropping a motor can be a one person effort


Yasss, it was! Not the most perfect execution perhaps, but good enough for me!













brian_ said:


> Do you really want a high-power T2 anyway? Anything significantly higher than the original engine output seems like enough to me.


No, I definitelly don't. I think there's been misunderstanding. Our MOT inspection people require the power ratings anyway, so despite the motor - be it Leaf, Tesla, or AC-51 - I need to present them with the power figures somehow and currently I'm in the unknown with what figures do they want to stare at (and therefore don't know what the viable motor options are for real).

Right now I'm mostly interested about Leaf motor, but yeah like I said.. paperwork to figure out how they'll accept it before committing to anything.



remy_martian said:


> You may not want a heater in Finland, but your battery will. It needs to be kept above about 15C when driving or charging.
> 
> "This needs to have...decent range" Please quantify your ballpark numbers here...decent to one person is 60km, to another it's 500km.
> 
> You're brave to do this given you sound like you're on your own as far as your friends go. Hopefully really stubborn as well.


Eh this will be a summer car anyways, there's no point driving this kind of things in our winter  I think batteries will be quite happy in our 20C summer. But we'll see, heater is not completely out, will think more about that kind of things when the plans get more concrete.  Decent range for me is 150km+ since this is a camper after all. The more the better of course, but I know it doesn't come cheap. Like I mentioned my current plan is to go with Tesla modules for their longevity.

Thanks! I do consider myself stupidly stubborn  There is the backup option of conversion shop but damnit before I pay for those kind of moneys straight away.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Evbeddy said:


> Id be looking at the nissan leaf drive train if I was you. There are heaps of them around for parts and are quite well understood and well made.
> 
> You could use the nissan leaf gearbox (my recommendation) or make an adapter to fit it to the t2 gearbox.


Fortunately, a T2 has the CV-joint rear suspension, so it can be used with a transaxle other than the original VW unit or equivalent (unlike a basic Beetle). Unfortunately, it is unlikely that there is space for the Leaf motor, which sits ahead of the axle line and so would presumably conflict with the suspension control arms. Drive units which place the motor on the axle line (such as the Chevrolet Bolt unit used by Yabert in his Westfalia T3 with chevy bolt drivetrain), or behind the axle line (which means mostly Tesla, but also the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV rear drive unit) are more likely to fit without radically changing the van's rear suspension.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle as would most likely be necessary in this bus where the engine room exists in the rear...? Of course this would kind of invert forwards and reverse, but does that matter with electric motors?

Obviously there isn't really much room in front of the rear axle, when the original engine sits behind it. So the only option I can think of is either mounting the Leaf motor to the existing transmission (rather would not), or turning the whole stack wrong way 'round and perhaps cut some metal from where the fuel tank normally sits (above the clutch bell housing)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle as would most likely be necessary in this bus where the engine room exists in the rear...? Of course this would kind of invert forwards and reverse, but does that matter with electric motors?


That's a good idea to explore, and it may work. It doesn't matter to the motor itself. With some drive units lubrication is an issue, because they include an oil pump for lubrication and cooling which would turn backwards - I don't think this is an issue for the Leaf but that's just from my imperfect memory . The controller needs to be told to run in reverse (fundamentally just swap F and R labels on the shifter), and may have different speed and power limits in reverse, which would need to be checked out. The helical gears will load bearings due to torque reaction thrust in the opposite to the usual direction, but that also happens during regenerative braking and during driving in reverse, so it's unlikely to be a problem.

This has been done with Tesla drive units (which definitely have issues because they have oil pumps). Maybe someone has run a Leaf unit backwards and has checked all of this out?


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Watched a disassembly video of the Leaf transmission from YT and it doesn't seem like anything would prevent running it in reverse most of the time.  no oil pump, just basic helical gears. Thrust like you mentioned could be an issue, but thenagain like you also mentioned regen does spin it in reverse anyways sooo...

I don't know. Right now this seems like a promising avenue to explore.


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## TeZla (Feb 18, 2021)

regen doesn't spin it in reverse, But it does torque load the gears in a different direction. Sorry for being pedantic.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Do you want to keep the transmission or no? A Leaf motor may be an option if you do. A lot less futzing with relengthening axles, and running things backwards in trade for an adapter plate and coupler.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> Do you want to keep the transmission or no? A Leaf motor may be an option if you do. A lot less futzing with relengthening axles, and running things backwards in trade for an adapter plate and coupler.


I mean this is a difficult question! I have an local offer now to trade the Typ4 into completely rebuilt transmission so that'd be "free" if I choose so. So far my thinking is

Pro's about keeping the VW transaxle:

Would make the engine placement much, much easier with no need to work with the CV shafts nor build any sort of cradles in near-suspension area.
Most conversions do it that way so at least there's proof that it works.
Original is original  even with conversions.

Con's about keeping the VW transaxle:

Apparently Leaf-to-transaxle would mean some magic needed for the motor output shaft to connect to the transaxle input. It has been done and I found this: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2022/01/06/nissan-leaf-motor-volkswagen-transaxle-adapter-kit but it still sounds and looks.. annoying. 
Added weight
Added possible failure points, I don't know how reliable the VW transaxle is.

Currently I do feel that keeping the transaxle maaaay be the better way to go, especially with the trade offer I now have about that rebuilt transmission.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The way he's doing it certainly is annoying. Mr Cheap Charlie.

With Valentine's Day around the corner, commitment means...cutting off your input shaft for her (the T-2) 😂

You can get any number of machine shops to machine a proper coupling for your setup, and a spacer plate isn't rocket science. Look around in this place and someone may have done the heavy lifting at least on the bolt locations and shaft centerline.

An additional "pro": the transaxle does give you the added benefit of putting it in first gear if you ever start to miss your motorbike's acceleration from a stoplight. Assuming you don't start shredding sheet metal on the old girl.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> Con's about keeping the VW transaxle:
> 
> ...
> Added possible failure points, I don't know how reliable the VW transaxle is.


There's a whole industry in upgrading the transaxles of air-cooled VWs, because the stock ones fail, but a lot of people put a lot of power through them... so I don't have a good idea of how well a stock T2 transaxle would handle the torque of, for instance, a stock Leaf motor.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

True, but the motor torque can be limited in any inverter controller worth its salt.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> Apparently Leaf-to-transaxle would mean some magic needed for the motor output shaft to connect to the transaxle input. It has been done and I found this: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2022/01/06/nissan-leaf-motor-volkswagen-transaxle-adapter-kit but it still sounds and looks.. annoying.


Despite the note in the article, the Leaf transaxle really is a transaxle: it's a fixed-ratio (or "single speed") transmission and final drive in one unit.

In the article there is this comment:


> Note that I didn't intend to take the end plate off of the Leaf motor to see if I could swap out the output shaft for something that would make this much easier.


It's good that he didn't try that. The "output shaft" of the motor is the only shaft of the motor - there isn't some output portion which can be removed and replaced by something more suitable for connecting to the VW transaxle input shaft.

The huge length between transaxle and motor cases forced by the shaft lengths (because both are male so instead of one going into the other they are end-to-end) and the need for an adapter (because of the different splines) is an annoyance of coupling any common electric motor to any common automotive transmission. It seems tempting to cut off the end of the input shaft, but that seems like a bad plan to me - the transmission input shaft end is supposed to go into a pilot bearing or bushing to ensure shaft alignment, and that alignment is still needed. 

Ideally, the adapter would have a bore which is a good sliding fit to the plain end of the transmission input shaft. An alternative is to run the adapter in a steady bearing mounted in the adapter plate, which has been done by others in this forum.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Input shafts, like everything that hack was doing (how on earth did he get into Hemmings?), is not something you'd hire your local catalytic converter thief to cut off for you...

There's nothing stopping a person with even a smidge of pride from removing the shaft, having it shortened on a lathe, providing a "pilot bearing" alignment feature on its end.

On the motor side would be a bespoke splined coupler with a recess for a pilot hole (no bearing needed...it doesn't spin) and a shrink fit of that coupler onto the motor splines. This provides the ability to easily R&R the motor and aligns both shafts in a balanced manner.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Went to check for the floor to see what the rust side of things looks like:




























I mean.. Could be worse  but still need to figure out what to do with this too soon. I don't have any welding equipment nor experience, but anything can be learned if need be  checking up with car body work shops first though for their offers, if I'm lucky there is a professional willing to tackle it for a reasonable price.

Indoors:



















As for the Leaf motor, I know it says "140V to 420V" but what kind of voltage it does actually run nicely with? Like.. what's the original Leaf battery output V it's designed for? It's difficult to find anything but Leaf motor coupled with Leaf batteries it seems, and I guess it's for the voltage reasons because achieving even the lowest end 140V with Tesla modules is going to get proper expensive proper quickly.  so at that point stuff like Hyper9 coupled with say, 5s Tesla modules (110V -ish) sounds like a lower cost despite the motor package being crazy more expensive.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Okay so the stock Leaf battery pack is 360V. I did some quick calculations based on the info I'm able to find online.

With the 360V nominal required for optimal output for Leaf motor, compared to 140V for Hyper9

This is by no means my definitive plans but rather a quick sketching to shed more light to options available again.  Price estimates are from quick online searching, not the "best price available".



Maybe it was obvious for you folks from the beginning, but as a newbie it certainly wasn't. But anyway it seems clear that running Leaf motor with Tesla batteries is just not feasible cost/benefits-wise.  Maaaybe with slighly above the minimum voltage reqs but that just wouldn't make a good build in my mind.

Running for example Hyper 9HV, aiming for ~50kWh at 140V with Tesla modules would add up to nigh 20k eur (batteries+motor) in total excluding bits and bops and work. Assuming motor kit price of 5000eur.

Running Leaf hardware all the way would prooobably be half of that at around 10k for the batteries + motor. Way cheaper, but with a question mark hovering over the battery lifespan, my skills in wiring up the VCU's as well as less proven (and custom machined = added costs) motor mounts, couplers, etc.

I purposefully calculated first with 140V as it was the minimum for Leaf motor. But I guess 2p5s would be the most feasible with Hyper9 style of option with 114V, 52.4kWh, 10 modules adding up to 13k-ish eur. That'd bring 50kWh price (batteries + motor) down with 2 modules and to ~18k eur. Still way more than Leaf hardware.

I'd really like the longevity of Tesla modules as well as the internal cooling option, but bah Leaf makes a very attractive alternative in batteries as well.  Hyper9 would also eliminate the need for custom fabricated motor mounts, couplers, etc since there's plenty of those (and AC-50's) stuck to VW transaxle already and it seems expensive but proven combination.

I'm throwing these thoughts here for a reminder for myself as well as for others to use.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Cera said:


> Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle as would most likely be necessary in this bus where the engine room exists in the rear...? Of course this would kind of invert forwards and reverse, but does that matter with electric motors?
> 
> Obviously there isn't really much room in front of the rear axle, when the original engine sits behind it. So the only option I can think of is either mounting the Leaf motor to the existing transmission (rather would not), or turning the whole stack wrong way 'round and perhaps cut some metal from where the fuel tank normally sits (above the clutch bell housing)
> 
> View attachment 127524


Bit late, but: the ring gear in the trans will flip over so you could mount any motor anywhere in the back any rotation. Many tranny places online here in the US do custom axles but they're pric€y. Anything aircooled will bolt up, it was all interchangeable back when.

They are rated 1/2 ton, the swingaxles with reductions and proper tires were 3/4 ton


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

For where you are, that rust is minimal.

Given you're not going to run it in winter, and you will run it in nice summer temperatures, you really don't need the Tesla module benefits.

Frankly, you can just buy another set of Leaf cells, or better, buy a whole leaf pack, use what you need for traction power, the rest as stationary storage which you'd rarely use because your hydro-electrics there are pretty reliable. Swap in the stationaries after you are done abusing the tractions...OR...swap in the stationaries as paralleled range extenders for long trips (after all, you have a TRUCK).

Since this is your first rodeo, you can always go back in and redo and should be able to sell off what you pull out.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> As for the Leaf motor, I know it says "140V to 420V" but what kind of voltage it does actually run nicely with? Like.. what's the original Leaf battery output V it's designed for? It's difficult to find anything but Leaf motor coupled with Leaf batteries it seems, and I guess it's for the voltage reasons because achieving even the lowest end 140V with Tesla modules is going to get proper expensive proper quickly...


The Nissan Leaf's nominal battery voltage is 360 V, resulting from 96 of the most common type of lithium-ion cells in series. This same voltage (resulting from the same battery configuration) also applies to all Tesla Model S, X, 3, and Y (except the Plaid), most other current production EVs, and most if not all plug-in hybrids (including the Chevrolet Volt and Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid).


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

For a "healthcare worker", she's pretty knowledgeable and a quick study.

She's asking for an operational voltage minimum to run a Leaf motor on her bus, Brian.

I think she knows what you posted, already. She's trying to decide on a traction motor by understanding system costs, the main component of which is the battery.

Given it's around 200HP and she really only needs 70-80, that says >= 44s xp would work, giving a min voltage of around 144V, where x is the parallel number of cells in a Leaf (which I don't know, nor do I know the module config for a Leaf).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

In case my previous post wasn't clear...
The Leaf is designed for 360 volts, but of course can run on less. So is almost everything else.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Your post was clear. Your guidance/recommendation was crap 😉


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> For a "healthcare worker", she's pretty knowledgeable and a quick study.
> 
> She's asking for an operational voltage minimum to run a Leaf motor on her bus, Brian.
> 
> ...


Ha  the " "

You clearly haven't seen finnish sisu 

Also yeah, I do fix people for living. Requires breaking things as a hobby to counterbalance.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

With people, you only get to break them once


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

you don't need all that hp.  36 was adequate, 50 was better, 70 gets dangerous on windy days, 300 is unstoppable stupid.

A ty2 with the factory A/C turned on could only go 35 mph in 3rd gear top speed on a level street. Btdt


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

piotrsko said:


> you don't need all that hp. 36 was adequate, 50 was better, 70 gets dangerous on windy days, 300 is unstoppable stupid.
> 
> A ty2 with the factory A/C turned on could only go 35 mph in 3rd gear top speed on a level street. Btdt


Maybe you should re-read my plans. I've specifically stated I've absolutely no interest of pulling high power out from this. 

Anyways!

Gearbox out. One of the rusty bolts did put up a small fight and required cutting. The most powerful cutter I have currently is a Dremel but ah well, it did the job.  CV shafts came out easy, altho the bolts were covered in mud and grime I had to clean first to even see them.










That's de-ICE'ing almost complete now!

But, as it so often is, one problem solved leads to another one discovered.

While removing all kinds of small bits and bops in and around the motor bay, I eventually reached the heater hoses. Now I knew from beforehand that these probably would present an issue, since they feature everybody's favourite insulation material from the 60's; seals made of asbestos. I sprayed the joint with liberal amounts of oil and put wet cloth on it, then with all fingers crossed and hoping someone had replaced them in the bus's history removed the plastic tubing. Alas. There they are, completely stuck on the rusty metal pipe. No way I'm going to pry them off with screwdriver.

Covered them with liberal amounts of thick grease to prevent any dust, wet cloth on that, and retreated to think of the next game plan. 










The other one is still safely stuck between the black plastic hose and the metal it connects to.

Ah well. Problem solving.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Borrow a hepa filter vacuum cleaner from work? 😂

Tricky.

Sucks.

You did well on the precautions. I think outdoors with local controlled negative pressure airflow in the duct area with a shopvac (you can get really cheap small ones) wrapped in a hepa filter, then double bag and dispose of it all? Wearing a respirator and a onesie tyvec suit taped at sleeves and nitrile gloves might work? Ideally, and this sounds macabre, is to enlist the help of a terminally ill mechanic...

I'd pull the duct beyond the asbestos joint and toss it as well.

edit: thinking about it...remove the duct from the other end or cut it off well upstream with a sawzall after wrapping it up in plastic sheet & duct taping it.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Challenges. At least I read about this from VW forums before tackling the parts. Would've sucked more to not know it.

There was slight hope someone could've swapped them to silicone when that came available, but that proved to be not the case.

I'm looking at pictures and schematics of the heater hose assembly and trying to figure out if it can be removed by cutting it "upstream" with the seals remaining in place. As long as they're either covered with thick grease or sandwiched between the plastic and metal it shouldn't be of an issue.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Come to think of it, I'll link these resources here as well for the asbestos in classic VW for other people who may come after me with the intentions of converting their classic VW. Luckily it's pretty decently documented and people have tested the different possible places to locate the dangerous ones:






TheSamba.com :: Ghia - View topic - Tell me this is not asbestos - heater hose


Classified ads, photos, shows, links, forums, and technical information for the Volkswagen automobile



www.thesamba.com









TheSamba.com :: Type 3 - View topic - Warm air mixing box thermostats


Classified ads, photos, shows, links, forums, and technical information for the Volkswagen automobile



www.thesamba.com





Might also be worth it to keep the possibility in mind when dealing with other classic vehicles.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Cera said:


> Maybe you should re-read my plans. I've specifically stated I've absolutely no interest of pulling high power out from this.


Im not the one contemplating a tesla motor.

Just so you know, the metal heater tube is removable and replaceable


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

de-ICEing complete!

This is the pile of stuff that won't be going back to the car, at least not in that shape or form. T4 engine, its transmission, firewalls and insulation, fuel tank, filler hoses, and so on. Also just pure trash like old window seals in the plastic bags.










Empty former engine bay, future motor bay  Looots of sand and dirt still in there though, but all the metal looks pretty good.










Also went ahead and removed the side and rear windows, side cover panels, sliding door with its mechanism, and so on. Preparing the chassis for the eventual sandblasting and repaint. Still the front section to go.

Bits and bops that can be re-used after some cleaning/painting/etc. Mostly rusty metal panels, windows and interior parts like stereo.










I think I need to start hunting new tyres too soon.. I haven't really solved how I'll get this to sandblasting (I don't have the tools nor space to do that myself)  but new tyres will make moving the chassis much easier in general.. I don't know if it's better to disassemble and repair the axles and suspensions before or after sandblasting hmh. I mean..

Option 1) is to just get new tyres and the chassis into rolling condition. Take it for blasting and base coat paint with the old suspension parts in there, which would mean that areas such as bolt holes or stuff below them doesn't get blasted nor painted, which'd be slightly annoying.

Option 2) is to jack up the whole chassis now, drop the front axle for overhaul and clean / powder coat / repair all of it, then wirebrush the mounting points and bolt the "brand new" axle into the otherwise rusty chassis.. then do the same for the rear suspension arms, brakes, etc. Then roll the chassis into sandblasting with "new" suspension and brakes and stuff...

I don't know which is better! 

Ah well. Still some disassembly to do before I need to seriously think about the next steps 

I also got confirmation from our vehicle inspectors about the conversion. I was correct in that my maximum motor power will be 12kg/kW. So assuming 1220kg as the gross weight, it'd be 101kW. With more mass, more power. I think 110kW Leaf stack would possibly be the best option within these limits since I assume batteries and other things will bring up the weight to allow that. One inspector replied that a EM57 specsheet from Nissan would suffice to prove the motor power. Other inspector said that power measurement report from a dyno testing is also possible, if no specsheet is available.

Also I need to have a heater too, I was kinda planning on just skipping that, but apparently defogging is mandatory  makes sense I guess. Otherwise just the "normal" rules based on the EU legislation, such as orange colour for HV, warning symbols into HV hardware, etc.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You can "derate" the inverter to produce 110kW at the wheels. 

Pass inspection on the dyno (oops, no data sheets), bump it up to 150kW 😈

You must have mobile sandblasting there -- they do heavy equipment and structures. I'd put it on a rotisserie in your shop, pull everything off and bring the water to the camel.

Tires & wheels last, imo. They're bling and who cares if these get blasted a bit by overspray while blasting and paint?


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> You can "derate" the inverter to produce 110kW at the wheels.
> 
> Pass inspection on the dyno (oops, no data sheets), bump it up to 150kW 😈
> 
> ...


110kW is plenty enough for me.  80kW would be also, but there's more info about Gen2 Leaf motor and inverter builds, and they are more readily available.

In an ideal world that'd probably be what I'd consider first. However I don't own any form of rotisserie for this, nor the equipment to make one, it'd take a long time to first learn how to do welding, design the rotisserie or similar, and then pull that off successfully and safely. Also there is another car in the same garage so I cannot really do or have anyone else do any kind of spraying inside the garage.

New tyres because two of the current ones are completely flat. They hold air for 1-2 hours max. and make moving the car even 10cm within the garage a really painful job. New ones would allow for rolling chassis, which would make so many things easier and towing the vehicle for sandblasting/paint would become a possibility.


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## Jay C (Jul 4, 2021)

Cera said:


> 110kW is plenty enough for me.  80kW would be also, but there's more info about Gen2 Leaf motor and inverter builds, and they are more readily available.
> 
> In an ideal world that'd probably be what I'd consider first. However I don't own any form of rotisserie for this, nor the equipment to make one, it'd take a long time to first learn how to do welding, design the rotisserie or similar, and then pull that off successfully and safely. Also there is another car in the same garage so I cannot really do or have anyone else do any kind of spraying inside the garage.
> 
> New tyres because two of the current ones are completely flat. They hold air for 1-2 hours max. and make moving the car even 10cm within the garage a really painful job. New ones would allow for rolling chassis, which would make so many things easier and towing the vehicle for sandblasting/paint would become a possibility.


W hat a fun project I makes me wish we were neighbors are you going to use the VW trans axle? be careful with the sand blasting the blasting media and dust gets every where... everywhere, I've done quite a few vintage auto restorations and some times I spent more time getting the "sand and dust out of little hidden nooks and crannies than I would have spent just scrubbing the road grime and surface rust off with a good old fashioned wire brush, a scraper and some work gloves I'm going to enjoy keeping track of your progress I should go and post an introduction before I start handing out advice


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The secret is to use CO2 pellets, not sand.

Sublime....ation


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## TeZla (Feb 18, 2021)

nice! this is coming along well! Im thinking that rolling it to the blasters on new suspension is probably the best of your options.

Im guessing your going to tow it to the blasters on a trailer or truck? It could be easier to make up some dummy wheels for under it, Weld up some basic frame with some heavy duty swivel caster wheels on the bottom, bolt it to the suspension points then you've got the chassis mobile and you can still work on freshening up the suspension while its getting blasted and any tiny rust patches seen to. Then when it comes home from that, its ready to go onto your fresh new suspension.

Are you planning a paintjob too? This is the best time to do it, right after blasting.

As for the power level, more is always better. You can always control how much power there is with the accellerator pedal, but if there's not enough power, there's no fixing that.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Fun project! You can remove your "Don't honk, I'm pedaling as fast as I can" bumper sticker when done.

There's lots of guys that use a rust encapsulating like POR15 right over the rust. I'm skeptical. The soda blasters referred to by others is better. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Crumbly, former metal, held together by paint 😂


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Get innertubes for the tires to hold air or used tires from wherever cheap like € 5. Used to be tow bars available that attach onto the front beam, but a super bug one will bolt to whatever is left of the bumper brackets with a bit of modification. My superbug one is attached to the ranger for when people ignore the low charge light and keep driving anyways. I have also seen u haul rental tow dollies drag bussies around. Finally vehicle tow companies, but they start at €100 a trip


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## Jay C (Jul 4, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> The secret is to use CO2 pellets, not sand.
> 
> Sublime....ation


It doesn't matter which blasting media you use the crud you're blasting off is turned to a fine dust and floats everywhere I've had cars on the rotisserie and evertime you rotated it over you ended up with an avalanche of dust


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Disassembly complete! Waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 0C, then pushing this out from the garage for pressure washer.










Some rust hiding beneath the windscreen seal. Typical place for almost all vehicles.



















Overall does not look too bad. I found few rotten spots from the bottom too and looks like at least one of the crossbeams needs to be redone. Compared to other T2 barn finds it could still be much worse. 

Ended up covering the asbestos seals with liberal amounts of regular PVA glue to encapsulate all the fibers. Then pried them off as one chunk of rubbery glue at next day and disposed as hazardous waste. That's them safely sorted as well.

Negotiating with local shop about chassis works. 

Started looking for the Leaf motor as well. It would seem that EM61 is more available in my region, but I've read from here that EM57 is more often used, so I might look for that instead. I haven't measured the motor bay yet so I don't know if it'll fit as a stack or if the inverter needs to be removed and relocated as in EM61. Once I have chassis work sorted, I think I'll make mock-ups about batteries and motors from cardboard to see what fits and where.

Is there a reason why I definitely shouldn't go with EM61 if one presents itself with good pricepoint? Some custom inverter boards or VCU not compatible? Difficult to source some parts that I'll end up needing? Anything? 

I'm also trying to understand Leaf stack required "aftermarket" boards and what will I need when the time comes.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Must have been a frustrating week at work...you got a lot of work done on The Pappamobile.

EM61 is a better motor. Also no worries about fit. Nobody wants them which is good. Get the cables with it if you can. Look for a newer Leaf PDM (nobody tell her why, lol) that you can remote where packaging allows.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

*assuming you keep the transaxle


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## Jay C (Jul 4, 2021)

Cera said:


> Disassembly complete! Waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 0C, then pushing this out from the garage for pressure washer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Cera said:


> Disassembly complete! Waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 0C, then pushing this out from the garage for pressure washer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 that is some ugly rust, it looks like you'll be talking to a good body man/welder after you get that area blasted
or


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

While it may look ugly, it's hidden and any patch looks like it can be welded to solid material before getting out to a visible flat body panel. It's in a perfect spot for pinched spot welding, a key machine to see that the body shop has.

See if you can find "factory" repair panels vs custom beating sheet metal into submission.


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## 52International (Feb 13, 2021)

Fyi, we put a metalized epoxy around the window of one of my old trucks to fill in small rust holes and prevent further rust. The cab was blasted to bare metal before this was done. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

That is a relatively easy repair, likely a patch panel is available too. Just done that same repair on the Chevy a few months back. Watch some YT videos, use a good inverter welder, hammer the welds to de-stress... easy


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## Jay C (Jul 4, 2021)

Cera said:


> Disassembly complete! Waiting for the outdoor temperature to rise above 0C, then pushing this out from the garage for pressure washer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


heritage parts center advertises a three piece repair kit, heritage parts centre.com VW bay bus body panels page three


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That wasn't spam.

It's the right way to do it:









windshield Repair Panel Kit


<P>windshield repair panel kit<br><br>3-piece repair panel kit that spans the full width of the windshield recess. Correct for all bay windows from 68-79 the profile of the recess did change very slightly, but this panel will work fine on either style rec




www.heritagepartscentre.com





Lots of other good pieces on that site from a quick glance.

That said, the parts I linked appear to originate in the UK, so...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Cera said:


> Started looking for the Leaf motor as well.


Why start to look at a motor as what is the most important in a electric vehicle is the battery?

Can I suggest you another way to do a conversion? You can take an entire EV powertrain coming from a wreck EV and put all the parts needs in your van.

By proceeding like that you will have anything you need. And there is a lot to need: Traction battery, bms, charger, charge port, motor, drive, DC converter, heater, accelerator pedal, brake booster, wheel speed sensors and so on. All this cost a lot when buy separately, but are include in a wreck EV.
It's exactly what I did with my Vanabolt: Westfalia T3 with Chevy Bolt drivetrain
And there is two others guys here in Quebec who used a complete EV to convert her VW van (T2 and T3).

As you are on the old continent, there is a lot of choice of EV and there is maybe an EV with the perfect battery to fit under the floor of a T2 and the perfect motor who fit in the rear.
Maybe start to look at Peugeot e-208, VW ID3, Hyundai Kona, Renault ZOE, Tesla M3 and other.
I know the Tesla model 3 battery modules and the motor are available free on grabcad. 
Good luck


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

That's the only place they are close to free...


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Yabert said:


> Why start to look at a motor as what is the most important in a electric vehicle is the battery?
> 
> Can I suggest you another way to do a conversion? You can take an entire EV powertrain coming from a wreck EV and put all the parts needs in your van.
> 
> ...


Hi!

Thanks for the suggestion.  I am looking at all the different ways/paths to take as the chassis issues are slowly being resolved. Looking at motor is what our inspection guys will be concerned about lateron when I try to get my plates, so I had to start there. Then once deciding on motor it was possible to start looking for batteries to go with it (voltage). I've mostly settled for Leaf motor, just debating the pro's and con's of the differences between EM61/57. Also mostly settled for Tesla Model 3 batteries (preferably LR) at the moment. Just checking availability, prices and need to double confirm that the Model3 batteries will fit where I'd ideally want them to fit.

Also before buying any parts, I am trying to do as much research and planning as possible, so I don't end up with a pile of parts I cannot put together and/or are fundamentally incompatible with each others or something similar. 

I did consider getting a wrecked EV for parts donor, but... 1) I don't own a yard or other space where I can store the whole wreck long-term. My garage is in an industrial area where it's hm.. very much frowned upon if someone stores their cars in the garage yard for prolonged time.  2) You'd be surprised how difficult it is to find a wrecked EV in Finland, I have looked, but it doesn't seem to be a real possibility. Wrecks (insurance write-offs) are mostly sold in auction here, and we're a population of 5mil people so there might be maybe 1-2 EV's in auction a year, depending on the amount of moose on the roads I guess. Finding it from some other EU country probably would be a possibility, but that brings all the shipping hurdles and logistical headache with it. Not to mention the cost.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

If you are looking at Tesla M3 battery, please buy a complete M3 and use the nice and compact motor of this car. This one will easily fit in the van and give you plenty of power. That will be really fun to drive.
The inverter is part of the motor.
The battery will be more complex to integrate as two of the four modules are 2 meter long.

Here in Quebec we are only 8 millions and there is regularly wreck EV for sale at auction. Amazing how many peaples crash each week. 
I had to ask (and pay) a wrecker with all the legal papers to buy my Chevrolet Bolt back to 2018.


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## Cera (11 mo ago)




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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Tesla M3 short module battery pack: check!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

How many modules did you get?


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> How many modules did you get?


4 modules, i.e. the full "short range" pack which is 56-ish kWh.

They measure 1370mm x 340mm x 80mm, 59kg (for one module) with connectors so will fit very nicely onto the cargo space floor.











Also got most of the contactors, fuses, coolant lines, etc. for the pack. As well as Tesla DC/DC but I don't think I'll be needing that since Leaf stack already has one. We'll see.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> 4 modules, i.e. the full "short range" pack which is 56-ish kWh.
> 
> They measure 1370mm x 340mm x 80mm, 59kg (for one module) with connectors so will fit very nicely onto the cargo space floor.


Interesting trivia: the short-range, normal range, and long range Model 3 modules appear to all have the same dimensions, which are determined by the number of cells in the long-range version. The normal range version just has a patch of empty spaces down the middle where cells are not installed (so it's lighter but not smaller), and the short-range version is physically the normal range version but hobbled in software.

Unless you got some weird variation for short range and lower voltage, the pack should have two long modules (25S) and two short modules (23S), for a 96S complete pack; the long modules are placed in the middle and the short ones on the sides, allowing the front of the case to have clipped corners to clear the front wheels of the car. That's a physical length difference, due to the two extra cell groups in the longer modules. Cera, are you saying that you have four identical modules, all from the same car, and are they 23S?


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> Interesting trivia: the short-range, normal range, and long range Model 3 modules appear to all have the same dimensions, which are determined by the number of cells in the long-range version. The normal range version just has a patch of empty spaces down the middle where cells are not installed (so it's lighter but not smaller), and the short-range version is physically the normal range version but hobbled in software.
> 
> Unless you got some weird variation for short range and lower voltage, the pack should have two long modules (25S) and two short modules (23S), for a 96S complete pack; the long modules are placed in the middle and the short ones on the sides, allowing the front of the case to have clipped corners to clear the front wheels of the car. That's a physical length difference, due to the two extra cell groups in the longer modules. Cera, are you saying that you have four identical modules, all from the same car, and are they 23S?


This is, in fact, not the case. 

The modules I have are bit shorter than the "shorter" ones of the LR pack and with no empty gaps. I have no idea what specific model of M3 these are from and I've failed to find much info, but you can find them popping up for sale sometimes. The sketchy info I managed to gather is that Tesla used these first when M3 was introduced, and lateron switched to using the 2 slightly longer + 2 full length long modules for all packs and just took out the cells from the "normal" and "short range" ones.










(Picture not mine, from another build in openinverter).

You can find these packs unopened by their point of balance too (as there's tons of empty space in the other end).

The modules are shorter than either of those in the LR pack.

For reference the length of the modules in the LR pack are ~1700mm (for the shorter) and ~1900mm (for the longer). I had to rule those out sadly since even the ~1700mm ones would've been too long to fit inside the cargo area as the above reference picture shows.

EDIT:

Picture of the LR (and supposedly the newer SR pack as well):










You can clearly see that what I have are shorter than the ones on the side in the LR pack. The case and the "penthouse" are the same though. I sadly don't have the case so I cannot look at any parts numbers etc. Currently I think the best way for finding the "short range/short modules" pack which I have is through a seller who has opened the pack and can send pictures of what's inside. It sucks that there are deceivingly two "short range" packs and no easy way of telling them apart without opening first, but that's how Tesla seems to roll...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Someone's definitely done their homework - brilliant fitting those in.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Cera said:


> The modules I have are bit shorter than the "shorter" ones of the LR pack and with no empty gaps. I have no idea what specific model of M3 these are from and I've failed to find much info, but you can find them popping up for sale sometimes. The sketchy info I managed to gather is that Tesla used these first when M3 was introduced, and lateron switched to using the 2 slightly longer + 2 full length long modules for all packs and just took out the cells from the "normal" and "short range" ones.


Excellent info - so they're an early variant. I should have compared the stated length to other published information. Since they're the same length, I assume that they are all 24S... is that true?

This photo also shows the connections, which are like the later versions. The front ends have terminals on the end to link to the adjacent module, but the rear ends have posts which stick up, into the "penthouse" of the battery case. Is the plan to have a similar penthouse (perhaps as an extension of the step up in the van floor, and possibly between the lateral structures need to support the floor over the battery), or to modify the modules?

These modules are short enough to fit into lots of places that the later Model 3 modules won't, but they'll become hard to find as those specific cars are scrapped.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They're actually from the newest cars...


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

Long time no post, but steady progress nevertheless. Mostly boring small stuff making plans, taking measurements, re-making said plans, and so on.

Got the chassis sandblasted some days ago finally.










And base coat painted on 




















Found a professional welder person who felt like taking the job, so the chassis is away for the winter for the long-awaited rust repairs finally. It's gonna cost, yeah, but I'll much prefer solid chassis to build upon rather than trying to learn how to deal with the rust and bodywork myself. 











And yeah, the painter was quicker than the guy with a masking tape so the weld-y parts needs to be cleaned again.  Bit of a miscommunication there, but oh well.

'till next time.


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## jolive (3 mo ago)

Cera said:


> Hey'a from the Funland that is Finland!
> 
> Slowly trying to get started with my T2 build.
> 
> ...





Cera said:


> Hey'a from the Funland that is Finland!
> 
> Slowly trying to get started with my T2 build.
> 
> ...


hey mate, sorry to bother you again. 
Would you mind if (worst case scenario) i wait and copy your build, as i saw a guy have a nightmare using the Mitsubishi motor coupled to the gearbox and so i'm now leaning towards the Leaf build but will probably go direct-drive to half-shafts unlike you but i'd like to see how much of the engine bay it takes up?
Cheers John


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## Cera (11 mo ago)

jolive said:


> hey mate, sorry to bother you again.
> Would you mind if (worst case scenario) i wait and copy your build, as i saw a guy have a nightmare using the Mitsubishi motor coupled to the gearbox and so i'm now leaning towards the Leaf build but will probably go direct-drive to half-shafts unlike you but i'd like to see how much of the engine bay it takes up?
> Cheers John


I mean sure that's why I document stuff so that others can follow should they choose to do so  it's no point re-inventing the wheel


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