# Flywheel or not



## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

I have been planning through my conversion, and I noticed that ElectroAutomotive says that not using a clutch requires a difficult shifting procedure and is hard to get correct. They therefore say that people should retain their flywheel/clutch assembly. A lot of other companies though seem to think that eliminating the flywheel/clutch is fine and just use a motor to transmission shaft adapter. Which is usually the best plan? I'm probably going to make my own adapters, but I have a really well equipped machine shop, so that's not such a big deal.


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## Cornelius (Sep 15, 2007)

There seems to be no one correct answer for the clutch vs. clutchless decision. A lot may depend on the vehicle being converted, and how the transmission was designed.

Bob Batson at EV America is a big proponent of not using the clutch. He points out that the rotational mass of the clutch and flywheel is the equivalent of several hundred pounds. By removing this mass, you should have greater range for your EV. Randy Holmquist at Canadian EV and Mike Brown at Electro Automotive recommend retaining the clutch, for the reasons you mentioned above. All of these guys have been in the EV business for about 20 years, so they know what they are talking about.

You can contact others on the Austin EV photo album who have converted a vehicle similar to yours, or one that uses the same transmission, to ask if they are pleased with way their vehicle performs.


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Probably should have said, but I am planning out an old VW. Anyone on here have any experiences either way?


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## O'Zeeke (Mar 9, 2008)

vwdevotee said:


> Probably should have said, but I am planning out an old VW. Anyone on here have any experiences either way?


Hi vW, i retained mine (even tho with a warp11 it could be done without) but my car is heavier than the usual conversion and i wanted one last "disconnect" in case the things go south. Also ive read where you need some rotating mass which helps to keep the electric motor from running out in case something fails. Plus i think you can better fine tune amperage draw/speed to maximize efficiency not to mention easier shifting


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is the important question, will your Wife or anyone else get to drive it?

If yes, then keeping the clutch removes the learning curve of how to shift without it.

It's also relatively easier to shift with a clutch using an electric motor VS an ICE because the electric motors do not need to be accelerated before you let out the clutch on take-off from 0 MPH.

This is due to the fact that electric motors do not stall like an ICE, removing that part of the learning curve.

It also means that breaking in an emergency is easier because the clutch does not really need to be disengaged (though personally I think it would be a good idea anyway) as long as you remove your foot from the accelerator, otherwise the motor would be Torquing against the breaks (not good ).

Not to mention keeping the clutch is another safety measure as you can disengage the motor from the drive wheels.

One thing you can do, is cut down the flywheel because it doesn't need to be as heavy as on an ICE and the springs to absorb the shock from the ICE aren't needed either, reducing some weight.

Goto Gavin's website:
http://www.kiwiev.com/

Check out the video of him getting his car inspected, the inspector drives the car and has a little trouble getting it into gear.

Plus it also takes a little longer than shifting with a clutch.

The all important question is:
Do you want it to be difficult to shift?
OR
Do you want it to be even easier than on an ICE to shift?


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## Bugzuki (Jan 15, 2008)

I am currently leaning the same way as Mastiff for the vary reason stated. I like the idea of having the clutch there to make driving easier, but also not having to use it in every situation you have to use it in an ICE - like starting on a hill. Left foot on brake right foot on accelerator.

You could deffinitely take the ring gear off to lighten the flywheel.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2008)

The old VW is not an easy beast to shift clutchless. Downshifting one is even more trouble. Best with the old VW to retain the clutch and flywheel. I am converting a 68 Ghia and my setup is designed with the clutch and it uses a lightened flywheel cut down to the minimum diameter and has no starter ring. Here is a photo album of my motor/adaptor set up. 

www.inertext.homeunix.com/newkaylorkit/


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## the slashmaster (Feb 24, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The old VW is not an easy beast to shift clutchless. Downshifting one is even more trouble. Best with the old VW to retain the clutch and flywheel. I am converting a 68 Ghia and my setup is designed with the clutch and it uses a lightened flywheel cut down to the minimum diameter and has no starter ring. Here is a photo album of my motor/adaptor set up.
> 
> www.inertext.homeunix.com/newkaylorkit/


What kind of controller is that?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

The controller in the picture is something someone else has done. I have no clue how it hooks up or what's actually missing. Some things are missing but the controller looks interesting. No one so far has been able to help figure it out. i actually purchased a modified SepEx controller from Kelly Controller. They modified it to work with these motors. It will have full regen. Nice.I get my batteries this week. : )


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

You all raise realy good points. I think I am going to go with the flywheel/clutch, but trim it down as much as I can like Gottdi.


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## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi,

I used to own a 1955 VW. I rarely used the Clutch when shifting between 2, 3, and 4 gears. Even though I never ground the gears after a couple of years the syncro's got dicey, which I believe would not have happened if I had shifted with the clutch.

Best Wishes,

Mitch


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

I can see you doing that with your 55 and a little 1200 engine. The early syncs did not hold up well. It is easier to upshift than to down shift. I agree that not using the clutch wore out those syncs in your tranny. I was not able to do that very well with my 66 bug and 1914 120hp engine. I could if I was easy on the engine but getting on it I could not shift up or down. Best for any tranny to use a clutch, electric motor or not. If you are racing then maybe you could get by with out a clutch since you'd be in one gear mostly anyway with an electric. The little weight savings could help in racing but not much on the street under normal driving. You might save 50 pounds max if that. Smaller cars not much, maybe 20 pounds. Not worth ruining your transmission for saving such little weight. I'd rather take out a seat or some other item to lighten the load. With a clutch you have not only an extra bit of safety but you have smoother control of your car and motor. That may increase your driving range and battery life and for sure the life of your transmission. 


Keep the clutch on all conversions. It's a no brainer.


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## MrCrabs (Mar 7, 2008)

I remember reading stuff about this already on this site....

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6705

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/how_a_lightweight_flywheel_works.htm

Seems like the efficiency gains from the reduced rotating mass are only significant in 1st/2nd gear....
So if you live in a flat area, wouldn't mind shifting without a clutch, wanted to maximize your range, and spend a lot of driving time in 1st gear, then remove the clutch...
Otherwise the convenience of keeping the clutch is worth the slight reduction in range in my mind.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Just turned over 3003 miles on my EV and don't miss the clutch a bit....

Never use first gear on the road, just 3rd and 4th mostly.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Not saying you can't do it but just wait till you reach 60,000 miles. But some do just fine. VW's are just one of the ones you should really use the clutch even if you only use a couple gears most of the time. I am talking mostly about the old air cooled transaxle. Now the newer front drive transaxle ones my fare better. : ) 

Mostly safety, then save the tranny, then ease of shifting and so on an so forth. It is after all a personal decision. Choose wisely. 

: )


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I think that most of the wear in synchros comes from down shifting and not up shifting . Unless you are my age or older you may not know that some transmissions didn't have them at all or at lest not all the gears . I think 1st gear on older VWs is not synchroed . In those transmissions you learn to wait for the gears to match speed then push it in gear . Down shifts you rev the motor to get the gears turning about the same speed . When you engage the gears you shift slow and they will almost fall in gear . ........J.W.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I might use my Triumph Spitfire for an electric conversion. I will probably retain the clutch in my conversion because I don't want the synchros to wear out. I just got done rebuilding my Triumph's transmission which only had 80k on it. The synchros were dead at about 60k though. Not using a clutch on this tranny is a really bad idea. 

If I were working with a Japanese transmission, I would worry less.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

Like I said, it's best to use the clutch on any conversion. The transmission was designed to use one. Maybe later down the road someone will actually make a manual that you don't need one to shift it with but for now they were designed to use one so I'd use one. Best to stay within the design parameters of the transmission. Real early bugs did not have a synch on first but even those that do it is mighty tough to downshift into first unless you are almost at a complete stop. Use the clutch, save a transmission and save your money for other things.

: )

PS the Triumph is a mighty tiny car to stuff enough batteries to make a decent EV. It can be done but you may be limited on voltage due to space limitations for your batteries.


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

I have a karmann Ghia (aka The Other Woman) and I find it's only difficult to downshift into first when teh tranny is cold. After I get it out on the road for a little while it loosens up a bit. I always chalked it up to thick gear lube...


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

Yea, now do it at 20 mph with no clutch. Arrrg, I can do it too but really hate it. At about 9 mph I could actually do it pretty smoothly with a clutch. Never without one. Not without grinding and pushing hard until it dropped in place. I have tried all ways to shift up and down in my old VW's but only the clutch gave me smooth shifting. Some times not but mostly yes. 

: )

Going to go look at a nice 65 for a nice price I can actually afford.


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## MARTY (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi all;
I don't have a clutch in my VW (1966) Time will tell, if that was a bad decision or not... And I don't miss it at all !!!!!!!!!!!! 
I am waiting for the rest of my 6 Volt batteries, which should be here about this Thursday... I have been running with half 6 Volt and the rest 12Volt..
What is the Weight limit on the BUG for Batteries ???? I would like to put 2 to 3 more in, or even 4, BUT I am Scared that --- THAT much weight would Bend my Bug (kind of like a sway back horse)... It would be at 96 Volts, but 120 volts would be better    !!!!!!
THANK YOU Marty


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2008)

Not sure of the limit but I now have 12 68 lb batteries for my Ghia. 72 volt system using 6 volt batteries. I am limiting my motor to 72 volts. I could go 96 but only on one of them. One I must keep limited to 72. The big motor I have is 144 volts. It's a Kostov 11" motor with interpoles for regen. It's not a shunt motor but a series motor that can do light/medium duty regen. I have the controller to go with it. It is a Zapi regen controller and modified by Zapi to take 144 volts and 800 amps. That's for my next project. If I can secure a nice old Micro Bus I will put the monster in that. : )


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