# The use an Automatic Transmission in an E.V.



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Doubt you'll get much of an argument here, lots of folks have discussed the PowerGlide.

These folks will put a motor/transmission combo together for you, which saves one of the challenging steps of the conversion (fabricating an adapter).


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

There are two reasons for Doing-it-yourself. Satisfaction and (many times) cost.

I have looked at their web site. Their approach looks very nice and well executed. If I was well off, I would buy their unit. No argument.

Alas, I am just barely able to afford things if I build them. I also have a small home machine shop and need to justify it's existence...(heh)

There is a small block Chevy V-8 adapter plate with hub offered by two different sources that will bolt a powerglide to a warp 9, 11 and AC-50. That involves using the stock bellhousing. (With or without a converter).

I was lucky enough to locate a used TCI built circle track powerglide from an old IMCA car. It has 4 seasons on it. They went to a Brin. It has the internal valving to dump the pump pressure causing a "clutch" effect. It is handy in an emergency if you want to cut the motor off from the drive axle for any reason. My car already has a clutch pedal. I plan to hook it up to the transmission lever, giving me a clutch again. It also has both low and high as well as being full manual shift.

Tomorrow I look inside it to see if it needs anything. (I feel lucky) Miz


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> There are two reasons for Doing-it-yourself. Satisfaction and (many times) cost.
> 
> There is a small block Chevy V-8 adapter plate with hub offered by two different sources that will bolt a powerglide to a warp 9, 11 and AC-50. That involves using the stock bellhousing. (With or without a converter).
> 
> Miz


What are your sources for the adapter plate?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Www.evsource.com Go to products...adapters...Motor accessories....middle of the page.

They have one listed for the V6, which should fit the v8. Also. They say they have more not listed...to call them.



www.shockev.com They don't list every adapter. You must call them.


Www.Canev.com They have one for the v6 and 4.3L engine. Also call for more.


They both seem to be in the same price region.......Miz


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Hey Miz,
You should look at the Soliton controllers, they have an idle function designed to pressurize automatic transmissions. 
Gerhard


mizlplix said:


> In a direct coupled unit, at rest, there is no primary pump pressure. No band/clutch packs are applied, in effect it is in neutral. As soon as we input current to the motor thru the controller, the front pump starts to turn producing flow. As soon as the pump volume starts to overcome the internal leaks, pressure begins to build. Somewhere along the line, the friction of the bands/clutch plates overcome the resting moment of the vehicle mass. (we start moving.)
> Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*the Soliton controller*

Yes, that would be a fine system if I was running a torque converter. The "idle" speed only needs to be slightly faster than the transmission internal leak rate. You would stay engaged while at the stop light and take off smoothly with no jerking. At a minimal loss of current while saving the cost of an external pump.

I, on the other hand, am not running a torque converter, which makes things more complicated (but not impossible). I am always engaged due to the coupler. When at stop, the motor is stopped too. It can not be "idled" or the car would move unless I uncoupled the power trane by pressing the "clutch" which dumps the pump flow (no pressure). 

OR bump it into neutral each time I came to a halt. That would keep the bands engaged, but I would have to stop the motor before putting it back into low gear or it would have a giant lurch.

Or simply have a 2 Qt. accumulator with an electric valve on it, plumbed into the servo cover test port. It would charge while running the motor, it would discharge when the motor was not running, keeping up the apply pressure.

The perfect system would have the accumulator electric valve signaled by the controller. 

1-Key switch off, no motor rpms, no flow, valve is closed. (but oil is stored in the accumulator ) car is parked.

2-Key on, no motor rpms, oil flow supplied to transmission, valve is open (Clutches/band are applied if in low or high) driver is ready to move car.

3-Key on, motor running, no oil flow supplied, valve is off. (driving)

4-Key on, motor running, drivers foot is on the brake (opens the valve), (coasting/no power to motor OR in Regen).Transmission pressure is still up and oil flowing, Valve is open, (This would allow the accumulator to charge when braking to a stop, (as the motor is running supplying oil flow).

The down side is that if you were at a stop for very long with the key on, the accumulator would fully discharge and the transmission would drop into neutral, the transmission would now be 2 Qts of oil over full and maybe overflow at the dipstick mounting hole.

Lots of unknowns. that is what makes it a challenge and worth doing. MIZ


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Oh, Yea. And this adapter kit....LOL 


http://www.ev-propulsion.com/conversion-KITS.html


Down the page. Pricy but looks quality. Expressly sez "Powerglide".


As of now, I think I'm going to make my own. I have a small home machineshop.

(Lathe, mill, Heli-arc) and 40 years of using them. 

If I cant get the accuracy I need, I'll wind up buying one. I'm not proud. In fact, I'm a realist. I've done some nice pieces in my life, but I've failed some too. At 20, if I failed at something, it was a major big deal. Now at 60, I just take a deep breath and go to plan "B". 

I hope I'm not boring anyone....LOL. (Did I mention that I drink Jack Daniels?)

This is the car the AC50 is going into.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: the Soliton controller*

Miz,

I am VERY interested in your solutions to the "no torque converter" Powerglide.

When you mentioned additional signals from the controller, I became even more interested. I too will be using a Powergide, but do not know anywhere near what you do about that transmission. I bought the Powerglide handbook and wrote to the author about using in in an EV application. He was really interested in the outcome and mentioned some of the problems you have stated.

I am building my own controller and have complete control over adding additional signals (input and output) and writing the software to integrate them.

I had from the beginning thought that I would be cutting off the bell housing and making an adapter from milled aluminum to go from the pump bolts to the face plate of the motor. I am using an 11 in motor. This way the entire drive train would be hardly wider than the motor, allowing a great deal of freedom in placing the drive train further back towards the rear of the car. Leaving tons of room for batteries under the hood.

I would greatly appreciate some guidance on picking a Powerglide so that I could start with the rebuild. "Working units" pulled and on the ground,in my neighborhood go for $200. 

Thanks for posting all this great information. Can't wait to see the next step.

Eric




mizlplix said:


> The perfect system would have the accumulator electric valve signaled by the controller.
> 
> 1-Key switch off, no motor rpms, no flow, valve is closed. (but oil is stored in the accumulator ) car is parked.
> 
> ...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Greetings Esoneson: As to powerglides......

No cast iron cases...That leaves *aluminum cases*.

In aluminum cases, there two major ones: early ones (61-66) have front and rear pumps. Late ones (67 up) only have front pumps. The rear pump allows someone to push start your car if the battery was dead. The late front pump one does not. We EV'ers dont care. 

So get one from a runner if you can. 

You only need to 1-replace the valve body with a *manual shift *one. or install a street/strip drag racing *shift kit*. (It holds in low longer and upshifts when you let it.)

And 2- new screen or filter (Which ever it has).

A *pump drive coupler* ( http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/745000/10002/-1 )
Or a *low stall converter* ( like from a diesel motor) Most major Metro areas have a transmission rebuilding factory that rebuild converters. Phoenix has two, ask them to make one.)

If you go with the coupler.........The servo cover (right side near the front) has a small 1/8" NPT port. If you plumb in an *accumulator* ( http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/23930/10002/-1 ) OR ( http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/23901/10002/-1 ) ALSO ( http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-24-046/ ) This gives you primary apply pressure, at zero shaft speeds.

I dont like their valves, so I steer away from them. 

So, an accumulator in the system with* valve control* by the controller (with a small relay) to open when your foot calls for throttle-and delays throttle start just a second to allow the trans to engage low gear. (eliminates a lot of leakage while sitting still.) 

It needs to stay open while the motor turns and close when the shaft speed is 0 RPM.

OK, another idea....Get a shifter ball with a NOX button built into it. Put a "tee" between the accumulator valve and case port. Put on another valve hooked to the button (Using a relay) AND (hooked up to the other valve, so one opens and the accumulator one closes on pushed button) GIVES you the ability to have a "Panic" button that places the trans in Neutral (at any time) if need be.

Just some thoughts....still have rough edges....

BTW: I just took delivery of my AC50 motor and Curtis controller kit. I am doing research to hook them together...MIZ


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

What is the big drawback of having the controller let the motor 'idle' at say 300RPM to maintain pressure. Since I was thinking of hooking up power steering and AC compressor and Brake boost to the CE of the motor anyways, why not use that to maintain pressure.

Could I still use a drive coupler or would there be too much of a 'grab' when first engaging in low gear? Seems like since I am controlling the motor rpm accurately, I could control the 'lurch'. Just looking for the simple solution. Never saw a need for torque multiplication in torque converter when I have so much torque at low rpm with an EV.

I would still like to get a nice small tight package for drivetrain.

After you contemplate that AC50 (nice motor), would love to hear your coupling ideas.

Thanks for all the links....much appreciated.

Now to narrow my search to aluminum post 1966 PG in running condition.

Eric


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Driving a coupled automatic is just like driving a standard with the clutch linkage broken. You need to bump it into neutral when stopping (Or in this case dump transmission pressure like we did). 

We engaged at 800-1100RPMS...you will at 200-300rpms. There is a barely noticable difference between 800 than 1100rpms, so there will be a bigger one to 300. Just how much, I cant say. 

Next time I am at my sons house, Ill try it with his Jet Electrica and report.

The AC50 and Curtis controller are both fine pieces. I cant say enough to express that.

The direct drive coupler has three snapring grooves to let you adjust for a motor mount mid plate or not. It gives you a measurement of 5/8" - 3/4" or 7/8" between the front face of the input drive flange and the bellhousing mounting surface. It allows some wriggle room in designing an adapter.

I have ordered a sprocket from McMaster-Carr with a 1-1/8" keyed bore

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6280k805/=cig86x $17.22

To make my coupler from. I am going to lathe turn off the teeth, chamfer the corner and weld on a 4-1/2" X 1" thick disk of A36 carbon steel, true it to size and make a step to mate to my coupler. Then drill/tap the 6 holes. done. 
(Or I could just through drill and use nuts. there is room for that. Plus a grade 8 fine threaded nut would have tougher threads than anything you could cut in A36 steel).

That will then allow me to set it all togather for a direct measurement of adapter thickness. 

At this early point My guestimate is 1-7/8". There is a 1/4" step on the motor to consider too. It is best to go one small step at a time to avoid a pricy mistake... : (

MIZ


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

SO, as to progress....

I have the AC50/controller and the oval track powerglide in my shop. I changed plans on building the coupler/adapter and bought one. I'ts in UPS and on the way. 

My main effort now is the all important battery boxes. It is a real trick getting 18 batteries to fit in a Model A Speedster...

I can also mount the controller and install the wiring as I wait for the adapter to arrive. 

TCI has a rather interesting item on their web site. It describes their newest "Clutchless" circlematic powerglide:

"The 'clutchless' style works similar to a Powerglide with a working torque converter. It is very simple to install because the shifter is the only external control required. To take off, you simply put the transmission in low gear and slowly depress the throttle. Once you're moving, you can shift to high gear; even at wide-open throttle! Reverse works the same way as low gear. And, because it's a reverse shift pattern, there's no chance of bumping the shifter into neutral or reverse during upshifts."

This sounds the answer to everyones problem.

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...uct_Code=744500&Category_Code=CTTIValveBodies

Im going to get more information about it if I can. MIZ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> To take off, you simply put the transmission in low gear and slowly depress the throttle.


What if you want to take off quickly?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Heh, quickly is not the problem with this set up.

Have enough tire and you are set. It is just like a manual set up in low with the clutch out. "gas and go" . The clutches engage and you have an abrupt, tire screeching launch.

Slow is harder, either ease the throttle until you start moving, then feed in more, or as in my setup, I have a Moroso accumulator that holds apply pressure while stopped. How long depends on the individual trans internal leakage, or I can plumb in a valve to stay shut off of brake light signal. When foot leaves brake and travels to throttle, the clutches apply and are ready when foot gets there.

Ill keep everyone posted on the results as I progress.

MIZ


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mixelplix said:


> Heh, quickly is not the problem with this set up.
> 
> Have enough tire and you are set. It is just like a manual set up in low with the clutch out. "gas and go" . The clutches engage and you have an abrupt, tire screeching launch.
> 
> ...


I want to caution you on using an accumulator. Automatic transmissions are very sensitive to overfilling. 

A 1.5 qt overfill on a powerglide will most likely (when the accumulator is completely discharged) cause the fluid level to rise to the point where the fluid is going to be beaten to a froth by the turning components of the gear train. 

A much better method would be to use an auxiliary pump tapped into the pump circuit to keep the line pressure up. The pump would be switched on whenever there was a need, e.g. low line pressure.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ive got a LOT of track time with these. I have strategies in mind for the windage issues. As with everything, time will tell.

There is a second way to use the accumulator also. As a buffer in the pressure circuit.

In the stock circuit, it uses a spring to compress as pressure builds. As the front pump sends flow to the throttle valve, the spring buffers the spike. Making it to not slam into gear. If we use the accumulator in the circuit, we have a means to tune the curve of the pressure buildup by adding or lowering the air pressure in the accumulator.



Thanks for the heads up. Miz


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Heh, quickly is not the problem with this set up.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Ill keep everyone posted on the results as I progress.


Please keep us updated. I hope it will work well, but I think you are trying to use a shift clutch as a starting clutch. My uncle used to use automatics in NASCAR Modified Sportsman class. He was blunt though, he told me that launch off the internal low gear clutch had to be done pretty quickly under low power if it was going to be repeated for a couple of seasons of racing without without having to pull the tranny. It was abuse for a clutch only designed for the slippage needed to shift with a slush box in front of it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Clutch abuse from a 1200 rpm small block engagement IS agressive. Im thinking more like a 50 rpm engagement. Hopes are clutch life will be decent.

Theory makes the world go around but thirty plus years of racing experience gives me a warm fuzzy about this.

Cheers. Miz


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## rankhornjp (Nov 26, 2007)

Maybe stupid questions, so I'll apologize before hand.

1) Which example MOST accurately describes how an auto trans works?
(pulling numbers out of my a$$)
30psi (car starts moving)
50psi (shifts to second)
100psi (shifts to third)
etc. 
OR
30psi(car starts moving)
50psi(shifts to second) pressure drops to 30 psi
50psi(shifts to third) pressure drops to 30 psi
OR
Something else.....

2) does the pressure leak down through ONE or MULTI locations in the valve body?

Thanks


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Most auto transmissions operate with different pressures. Example:

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/TechInfo/line_pressure.asp

The Circlematic, manual Powerglide is listed as 140-170 PSI. Meaning a minimum of 140 at idle and no more than 170 at full throttle. 

(In a factory transmission) When you are idling you have (example) 140PSI line pressure. When you place it in gear, the bands and or clutches involved engage. The engine RPM's are brought up and the torque converter is what starts the car moving by reducing it's slippage as rpm's are increased. Clutches and bands do not slip to move the car.

The pressure stays *mostly* stable but increases in a linear fashion until it is limited by the system main relief valve at 170PSI. (Im trying to keep it simple, there are a LOT of other things happening too) The governor signals the upshift.

So, to answer your question, 140 Psi then increasing to 170 psi, shifts when RPM's get right. It does fluctuate on a shift some.

Yes, fluid leaks at multiple locations inside the transmission. All shaft-to-bushing areas, throttling valve and system main relief valve, to name three. No shaft hook rings or teflon rings should leak but do with age. No band apply pistons or clutch pack pistons should leak any. 

A common air pressure test will give a good indication of trouble areas.


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## slumpp (Jun 29, 2008)

hello,
I believe that I heard Jack Richard (EVTV) say that there is someone working on a AT for EV's. Also, The evnetics controllers (Solartron) are setup for idle speeds.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yah, several places already do make auto trans for ev's. Google will list them.

One place even will rebuild your torque converter to have an extremely low stall so you can idle one at 200 rpms or so. 

I elected to eliminate mine and just direct couple it.

You are only limited by your mind.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually my mind has fewer limits than my skills


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

All good stuff. Thanks. The guys from FB Perfomance transmissions have done a few auto for EV applications. They posted on this site about it also. They say that they have developed a way to minimize the bleed off of pressure so that no idling is required and stop starts are normal. They recommend using a torque converter specially designed for low rpm Ev's like you mentioned also. What do you think about this ability to limit pressure bleed off to the point of "normal driving" performance?? . . no accumulator, ext. pump etc.

Thanks...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> All good stuff. Thanks. The guys from FB Perfomance transmissions have done a few auto for EV applications. They posted on this site about it also. They say that they have developed a way to minimize the bleed off of pressure so that no idling is required and stop starts are normal. They recommend using a torque converter specially designed for low rpm Ev's like you mentioned also. What do you think about this ability to limit pressure bleed off to the point of "normal driving" performance?? . . no accumulator, ext. pump etc.
> 
> Thanks...


I think its still a promise. FB has made some transmissions, but there is no information about them other than what FB says. If they want to sell those transmissions, it would behoove them to take one of their installations, put some instrumentation on it, and drive it around a little to put some video on youtube.

Short of that, its really all just statements to me. "Our transmission does not leak down, it has a TC that locks instantly, it drives normally, etc. etc." Those are breakthrough claims, and so far there's no evidence that the hardware can do that, let alone any description of the parts that allow the transmission to operate that way.

Since others are offering about the same promise- low leakdown, super-tight converter, etc., one can presume this kind of valve body and fluid control tuning isn't rocket science, and it may not even work. As it is, no one knows, because no one other than the vendors has actually seen one one of these units work as claimed.

Maybe FB or the other vendors are currently working on a patent application, or deep in final development. Maybe it doesn't really work. Maybe its the greatest thing since the Dynaflow and does everything exactly as described, with reference customers, and its just a series of happy accidents than no one has taken a picture of the inside of one, or videoed it in operation validating the claims. Whatever. The dearth of actual information and demonstrated performance puts this one in the KansasEV Powerglide category for me.

My biggest issue though, is the cost. The FB unit is $3k for the box, and another $2k for the torque converter, PCM and incidentals. For that money, I could have an air-shifted Lenco ST1200, which to me is much more desirable for this application.

Its a very personal decision...


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I second that....COST.
and....avaliablity.
and....ease of installation.

In a production Automatic transmission, internal leaks are minimal when new. The seals are still plyable and not cooked, the bushings still hold the shafts/drums/hubs in good alignment allowing those seals to work well.

Later comes seal material hardening and cracking from repeated heating/cooling cycles. Bushings receive their normal wear and all of that fine clutch/lining/hub cast iron "dust" has abraided the sealing finish to a pattern of micro grooves. All of which allow hot oil to weep past and contribute to pressure loss in the apply circuit. The transmission pump compensates by being too big and "over voluming" the leaks.

The second and largest source of "leakage" is the main pressure relief valve (sometimes called a throttling valve). They are necessary because the trans front pump can and does out volume the systems ability to utilize oil flow. It keeps the system at the required pressure and dumps the rest either into the pan sump or into the cooler circuit. 

My best guess as to a "secret" to keep pressure loss to a minimum would be to fit the bushings to the tighter end of the tolerance scale and modify the pressure reducing valve to somehow not leak so easily and hold a minimum backpressure. Like maybe using a Viton seat in the valve instead of the steel/steel contact as is now used.

Once my car is on the road, I intend to strip my second Powerglide and take my time rebuilding it with an EV application in mind. I feel many lessons will be learned.

Miz


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

TomA said:


> My biggest issue though, is the cost. The FB unit is $3k for the box, and another $2k for the torque converter, PCM and incidentals. For that money, I could have an air-shifted Lenco ST1200, which to me is much more desirable for this application.
> 
> Its a very personal decision...


Thanks for the reply. You make some good points. I'm just wondering where you got your prices though. If you check the prices listed on their website, the entry level Powerglide called Pro/Street is $895 + 150 core charge. The next is a Full Manual at $950 + core. Next is Stage 1 at $1,195 and this one has a trans-brake..good for 700 hp and 600 lb-ft torque. Stage 2 is $2,095 with T/B, no core charge. They have a stage 3 and 4 also. I have no idea what the torque converters are worth. These prices seem pretty reasonable to me... if they actually have figured out the leak down, especially compared to the adapter prices linked to above. 
I would really like to hear from some users. Lets see what we can dig up from these guys.

Lenco set up with reverser is no where near these prices.

I like the gear vendors unit as well and they are a lot more available. They don't have a reverser though,... but you can use a Lenco reverser with the GV unit.

cheers,
Gary


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

I think what Miz meant was this. 

http://www.fbperformance.com/viewpricing.asp?TransmissionID=100

transmission 2295
Torque converter 475
PCM module 795

it's past 3000. not counting the rest of the options available.

I've done a lot of research on automatic gearboxes, and still can't find the right one for EVs. No need for idle, well that's available with FB automatic, but it's very costly. Direct coupling works, but during gear changes I believe it's going to be very rough (not suitable for wife). I'm not sure how you do it Miz haha, but I wont be satisfied without an automatic gearbox that doesn't need idling.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ishiwgao said:


> I think what Miz meant was this.
> 
> http://www.fbperformance.com/viewpricing.asp?TransmissionID=100
> 
> ...


Perhaps he did...but the thread is about using a powerglide, and that trans shown in that link is not a powerglide. Also, he quotes "The FB unit is $3k for the box, and another $2k for the torque converter, PCM and incidentals." That's not what you have above.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a question, was the power glide ever used in a 4wd setup with a transfer case, and/or can the tail shaft be removed to mate up with a t-case?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Here's a question, was the power glide ever used in a 4wd setup with a transfer case, and/or can the tail shaft be removed to mate up with a t-case?


I'm no expert, but I don't recall any powerglides used for 4wd's. The tail shaft is removable and u can get a shorty or long version. They have made/adapted this trans to just about everything so... who knows. lol
Why do you ask JRP? whatcha got in mind? lol

Here's an aftermarket kit.. http://www.advanceadapters.com/downloads/50-9212.pdf
This guy did it also... http://www.pirate4x4.com/articles/productreviews/powerglide


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm thinking that since the powerslide was used way back in the day, real 4wd enthusiasts were accustomed to 3 or 4speed manual transmissions. From what I remember, it was used only in high end large displacement cars like buick, cadillac, which generally didn't go off roading much. 

OTOH, the output shaft and bolt patterns are well known, betcha Borg-Warner has a 13 series that bolts right on.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> ...From what I remember, it was used only in high end large displacement cars like buick, cadillac, which generally didn't go off roading much...


'glides were used in everything from "economy" cars, to sports cars, to big land yachts. I think I've owned each variety over the years.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Why do you ask JRP? whatcha got in mind? lolhttp://www.pirate4x4.com/articles/productreviews/powerglide


I've had a project in my brain for many years, originally in ICE configuration, then as an EV. I have many of the components and was going to use a TH350 but I think an EV modified Glide might be better. I'm just waiting for the right water cooled AC/BLDC motor, at the right price, to magically appear  This project must have regen.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I've had a project in my brain for many years, originally in ICE configuration, then as an EV. I have many of the components and was going to use a TH350 but I think an EV modified Glide might be better. I'm just waiting for the right water cooled AC/BLDC motor, at the right price, to magically appear  This project must have regen.


Hmmm, what's he up to? I put my chips on "rock crawler". Spin the wheel...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pretty much, throw some mud into the mix as well for the full picture


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

OK, let's get straight on pricing for the FB. The numbers were mine, not Miz's, and here's how I arrived at them:

1. I didn't even consider the 4R70W transmission that FB sells for $2300 plus accessories. It has a 325ft/lb torque rating. Almost any combination I would want to operate a vehicle heavy enough to use this transmission is going to be right up to, or exceed that. I wouldn't spend big bucks on an automatic that I couldn't use 3 years from now when 2000A controllers are commonplace. 

2. I didn't consider the heavy duty AO3 (AOD) they sell for $1700 plus accessories, because its a full manual valve body, and doesn't operate like an automatic. Also has a street TC rated for only 375ft/lbs.

3. That leaves the Stage 2 AO3 (AOD) listed in the pull-down, but without any information posted, or the Stage 1 AODE at $2800 3-speed or $3k w/OD. This unit is rated at 825ft/lbs with its $950 TC rated 10% higher. That's about like an upgraded powerglide, but much lighter duty than a Lenco, Jericho or GearVendors OD unit. The FB also needs a $750-$800 PCM and incidentals, so I called it $5k all day. 

I'm not saying you can't get a Ford or TH/4L-series GM automatic for less. You can get the lighter duty FB for less. You could get a junk anything, and play around rebuilding/upgrading it for very little. 

What I said was this is a personal decision, and for myself, the only FB product I would consider is the one rated for what I would likely put into it while I owned it. That's expensive, and yes, an air-shifted Lenco 2-speed would truly cost less. The second planetary for the Lenco to make it a 3 speed would likely push it up over $5k all in, but then I would have a light, bulletproof non-slip button-shifted transmission with adjustable gearing that I could put on ebay for 75% of what I paid for it should I not want to keep it. I wouldn't go that deep into a transmission without being able to get something out of it.

Again, personal preference...


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## welder4u (Nov 30, 2010)

Here's what I built for my customer. No clutch and 2spd with rev. 1200hp [email protected] 900 ftlbs. of torque. 

http://gillwelding.com/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet! What's that cost, and what is it going into?


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## welder4u (Nov 30, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Sweet! What's that cost, and what is it going into?


The Lenco ST1200 cost as of last year $3100 shipped to your door. It was installed in this http://youtu.be/c9CzQDJUR58 The adapter will be for sell shortly. I just need to get all of the cost worked out. 

You can see more here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/customers-car-63579.html


http://gillwelding.com/


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

welder4u said:


> The Lenco ST1200 cost as of last year $3100 shipped to your door. It was installed in this http://youtu.be/c9CzQDJUR58 The adapter will be for sell shortly. I just need to get all of the cost worked out.
> 
> You can see more here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/customers-car-63579.html
> 
> ...


Nice job on that set up. I thought the Lenco ST1200 was more $. I think I was looking at used 4 and 5 speed units. Do you know how much the reverser unit alone is? I kinda like the ratios of the GV unit... but wider spread. GV with the Lenco reverser would suit my application well I think..

Quite a few of the faster racers are running the GV units now. 

cheers.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

welder4u said:


> The Lenco ST1200 cost as of last year $3100 shipped to your door. http://gillwelding.com/


Oh momma  I figured it couldn't be cheap.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> GV with the Lenco reverser would suit my application well I think..


I doubt it. 

The Lenco planetary (1-2 gearset) bolts right to the reverser, gives you an integrated R-1-2 unit instead of a bare reverer case to somehow tie together with the OD, a choice of gear reduction beyond 78%, and a mount for chassis and the shift controls. That's a lot to have to figure out and fabricate marrying a GV OD to a bare Lenco reverser.

Last time I checked, the GV units were like $2200, so I don't see the savings either, in weight, time or money.

Still, its a personal decision.


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

Hi.
I am still planning some kind of EV conversion, but keep going in circles when it comes to such basic choices as automatic vs. manual tranny.
I like the simplicity of going with manuals, just join the electric motor to the clutch, but since this vehicle would be used mostly for city driving I prefer automatic.
I own a Subaru Legacy which may end up as donor for my EV project and have acquired a set of service manuals. 
I have skimmed the chapters covering the transmission and reached the conclusion that it should not be a difficult task to build a controller to replace the existing TCU unit. In fact it appears to be much simpler than I had expected.

I am giving a short description of this controller and ask for your opinions, especially if I am missing something vital regarding what to expect the AT unit.

I found that I should get away by controlling only three solenoid coils with 12 Volt on/off signals.
The first two coils select the gear ratios in binary manner (Gray code) and the third controls the lock-up clutch. End of story - well almost.
There are three more solenoids, one for controlling the overrun brake and one for reducing the system oil pressure. I believe that leaving these in their default (off) state does no harm and still leaves the tranny fully operational. The last solenoid controls the 4WD, rear transaxle, and I can do that manually by a on/off switch.
As input for my controller I would need the following:
Shifter selector position (Drive) 
Motor RPM for deciding when to shift.
Vehicle speed for controlling the lock-up clutch.

I believe that this is all need. If I am not missing something fatal I might even build a prototype controller and test run it in my Subaru before I throw out the ICE.

Please note that I prescribe no modifications at all on the tranny itself saving $$$. Just start with an ordinary 4 speed electrically controlled tranny which has torque converter with lock-up clutch (electrically controlled) such as the TZ102 tranny in my Subaru.

Over to you guys. Any comments ?

Agust


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Why replace the original TCU ? Just give it the sensor info it needs (rpm, speed, drive as you say) and use it like that. Most also need a throttle position sensor signal also, which we normally use a potentiometer set to a certain value to tweak the shift points. 
mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## leonheart (Mar 2, 2011)

welder4u said:


> The Lenco ST1200 cost as of last year $3100 shipped to your door. It was installed in this http://youtu.be/c9CzQDJUR58 The adapter will be for sell shortly. I just need to get all of the cost worked out.
> 
> You can see more here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/customers-car-63579.html
> 
> ...


Good work, that car is pretty fast!


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Three comments:

1. I have had a Subaru with the automatic transmission. They have a poor reputation for longevity. Mine lasted 53k miles, was replaced under warranty, and the replacement went 60k. If you are spoofing sensor data to the PCM, or actually controlling solenoids with a different processor, with the kind of torque an electric motor can deliver, the likelihood of damaging this rather fragile unit is, I think, pretty high. Worse, they cost a small fortune. You're also giving up quite a bit of efficiency with the stock gearbox and torque converter. I just wouldn't do that, especially with this particular transmission. 

2. I don't think the gearing on this transmission is going to make it worthwhile. Most EVs use 2 gears- which would probably something like 2nd and OD on your automatic, so I think its a lot of work for a rather compromised result.

3. Make sure the TCU isn't integrated with the engine ECM, as most cars are in the last few years. If they are tied together, the TCM will need throttle position and maybe a few other things like temperature data. This tasking is either rather simple, as you say, or stubbornly complex, and often it goes from the former to the latter on you in no time...

This OEM transaxle isn't really the kind of automatic transmission being considered here on this thread. In this case, we're talking RWD gearboxes where you have gearing choices, easy final drive ratio changes, and stout aftermarket components to start with. Not cheap, either, but the risk of failure or unsuitability is pretty low. If your project is cash-sensitive, I think trying to use a Subaru electronic automatic transmission puts a lot of risk into your plan in terms of work, outcome, failure and cost.

Just my $.02


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

TomA said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> The Lenco planetary (1-2 gearset) bolts right to the reverser, gives you an integrated R-1-2 unit instead of a bare reverer case to somehow tie together with the OD, a choice of gear reduction beyond 78%, and a mount for chassis and the shift controls. That's a lot to have to figure out and fabricate marrying a GV OD to a bare Lenco reverser.
> 
> ...


The reason I mentioned GV with the Lenco reverser is that the ST1200 comes with a max ratio of 1.48:1 The GV units are all 1.78:1. I like this spread more for a performance ev application. The other reason is that there are many thousands of GV out there and u can usually pick them up for a much better price slightly used. It would just be nice to have the mechanical reverse...that's all. GV are more in the $2600 to $3100 range but you can usually buy a good one for about $1200 used. Some are listed for more... .but I've seen them much less also. I missed a brand new never installed complete unit for 1500 not long ago.  Oh and the GV does adapt to the Lenco reverser.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> The reason I mentioned GV with the Lenco reverser is that the ST1200 comes with a max ratio of 1.48:1 The GV units are all 1.78:1.


Not quite. The GV overdrive is 1:1.28 in reciprocal (reduction versus OD) mode, or more accurately, 1:0.78 as an overdrive. That means it gets _taller_ when it is engaged, not "deeper" as in a lower gear. I have heard that you can flip them around and run them as a reduction engagement, unlike a Lenco which has a sprag and can't be spun backwards, but I've never had one so I really don't know.

The easier way to use the GV is just to drop the rear axle ratio, (higher numerically,) but the problem is there just isn't enough of a spread between the ratios for the OD to be very practical. Two of them stacked together would be OK, (.78*.78 = 1:0.61, or 1:1.64 as a reduction unit) and might just be a perfect solution for an AC motor.

Y'know, the more I think about it, with 2-step programmable electric switching between 1.61:1 and 1:1, a bulletproof gearset, probably 80lbs all in, and the unique driveline parking brake available on the RV-spec unit, twin GV ODs would be a fantastic solution for a higher power AC drive in a heavier car. 

Its already been done, too. I saw a twin turbo big block pickup truck in a magazine about 10 years ago with dual GV ODs behind a 4L80e.

Interesting...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> The reason I mentioned GV with the Lenco reverser is that the ST1200 comes with a max ratio of 1.48:1 The GV units are all 1.78:1.


Not quite. The GV overdrive is 1:1.28 in reciprocal (reduction versus OD) mode, or more accurately, 1:0.78 as an overdrive. That means it gets _taller_ when it is engaged, not "deeper" as in a lower gear. I have heard that you can flip them around and run them as a reduction engagement, unlike a Lenco which has a sprag and can't be spun backwards, but I've never had one so I really don't know.

The easier way to use the GV is just to drop the rear axle ratio, (higher numerically,) but the problem is there just isn't enough of a spread between the ratios for the OD to be very practical. Two of them stacked together would be OK, (.78*.78 = 1:0.61, or 1:1.64 as a reduction unit) and might just be a perfect solution for an AC motor.

Y'know, the more I think about it, with 2-step programmable electric switching between 1.61:1 and 1:1, a bulletproof gearset, probably 80lbs all in, and the unique driveline parking brake available on the RV-spec unit, twin GV ODs would be a fantastic solution for a higher power AC drive in a heavier car. 

Its already been done, too. I saw a twin turbo big block pickup truck in a magazine about 10 years ago with dual GV ODs behind a 4L80e.

Interesting...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up... ya, the issue is really the spread between the gears. You can change the diff ratio to get you where u want to start. Is 28% enough for the application... I guess is the question. Two together is interesting thought... kind of like the Lenco stack-em-up idea. 

I don't really want to do electric reverse on a high power application. Too many points of failure. Too bad there aren't more Lenco units around like the GV's. There were over 2 million OEM new car applications, but a lot of these were the J type like Volvos, and this design is not as rugged. Still, many P types went into motor homes and truck applications.

I heard the Lenco can be had with or without the sprag,.. no?


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> ya, the issue is really the spread between the gears. Is 28% enough for the application... I guess is the question.


Its actually 22%, and the answer is probably not enough spread. Most EVs use 2nd and 4th in a manual, which usually in the neighborhood of 100%, that is, 2nd gear is generally around 2:1, and 4th around 1:1.


DIYguy said:


> I heard the Lenco can be had with or without the sprag,.. no?


No, you can't eliminate the sprag, although it isn't in the reverser, which could spin either way.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

TomA said:


> Its actually 22%, and the answer is probably not enough spread. Most EVs use 2nd and 4th in a manual, which usually in the neighborhood of 100%, that is, 2nd gear is generally around 2:1, and 4th around 1:1.
> 
> 
> No, you can't eliminate the sprag, although it isn't in the reverser, which could spin either way.



Actually, I use all 5 speeds in my EV. I seldom use 1st, but occasionally when stopped on an incline or when I want to get out fast. 2nd is normal start, always 3rd, 4th on the biways and I will use 5th when on the freeway. This is with a 9" series DC in a small truck. What do you use on yours? 

I think the spread we are talking about is likely a variable best tied to motor/vehicle combination. For instance, smaller motor with heavier vehicle can benefit from lower and more gears obviously. The guys racing with twin 9's or twin 11's who use anything other than direct drive, are using gear vendors. So, with my 13" motor that I am planning to run, perhaps I need less of a spread than 2:1. I dunno yet......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

In my Fiero with an AC system I almost always just keep it in 2nd from 0-65. I'll use 1st in town if I'm feeling sporty, and almost never use 3rd as I rarely have an opportunity to go above 65. I think I used 4th once just to see what it was like and never have used 5th.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If i ever change out my powerglide i am going to try a Jericho transmission. They are based on the old Ford T&C toploaders. They are changed from a cone ring synchro to a dog ring engagement. The gears are straight cut and narrow for less hp loss. The ratios are completely changable. 4th can be 1:1 or an O.D. they dont need a clutch to shift......

I see them used from $1200-$1500.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This what you are talking about? http://www.jericoperformance.com/2speed.htm


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yep. Except i d use the Nascar 4spd version. They have been around since the late 1980's.


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