# 120 & 144 Volt AC Controller



## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

I want to covert my 1972 Tirumph TR6 to electric drive.

The projected voltage is 120-144Volt on an AC motor.
I want to use the AC motor to bring around 30KW cont. and around 70KW peak - meaning min. 500amps - but so far I haven`t found the right controller yet.
I would like to avoid a liquid coolig controller if possible!

The Curtis 1238-7601 is said only to go upto 120Volt (actually only 96Volt) but there are 2 other controllers which are announced for 2.quarter 2012 :

Curtis AC controller for 144 Volt
pg drives Sigma 2 for 144 Volt (http://www.dmcde.de/pdf/sigma2.pdf )
Does anybody have news about these 2 items, when they will come out, price, how many amps they will feature and which of the 2 would be the better option? 
Any alternative controller suggestions?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

There's also Sevcon, Rinehart, Tritium, etc.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Yes - but all of them use LIQUID cooling, as they are designed for much higher voltage! This I want to avoid. They are therfore also very expensive, Eur 4.000++ (US$5.000++), only the controller!

The tritium wavescultor200 only produces 300apms even at 144 Volt, this is too little!
Sevcon Gen4 size 8 only 360apms!
The rinehard PM100DX works only form 160Volt onwards, also only 300amps!
I know there is also the german unitek bamocar D3 (Eur 3.500) and the italian eve quantum330 (Eur 5.900) which fall in the same category. 

No - I want a simple, straight forward air cooled 144 system which is afordable and not over-technoligised since it is a 1972 car (no power steering or automatic gear box, etc.).


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I didn't see that you required air cooling, you said you wanted to avoid water cooling, not that it was a hard requirement. Also, you never mentioned budget.

GPAC from Sevcon is 150VDC to 360VDC, up to 800A RMS
http://www.sevcon.com/media/2116/gpac_data_sheet.pdf
Forced air or liquid cooling.

If you want simple, straight forward air cooled..... then don't use AC. Use series wound and be done with it. Motor and controller for an AC system at 130VDC peak, is $4500 or so. Expect the 144V version to be over $5k for the pair. Do you already own an AC motor already?


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

No, not yet!
Air cooling is for the simplicity of the system (the motor will also be air cooled), moreover the annual check by the authorities will be easier.

I live in a very hilly area (Alps/Austria), will use it for city drive (stop & go) and short highway trips (130km/h + for overtaking) and only in summer (car stays in garage form Oct-April),
in many discussions I found out that AC would be best for me.

I sort of fixed the motor to Heiko Fleck`s air cooled AC Motor (www.evalbum.com/4197), but he himself is also still searching for the right controller - he is not quite hape withe the Zapi he used.

sevonc GpAC you meant- right?! Did you see the weight: *46KG?!* Guess this will quite expensive too - and far too heavy for a 1090KG car, this is more than half to what the motor weighs (72KG)!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You're changing your requirements. First the water cooling, then cost, now weight? Why don't you list what you require first, rather than divulge it one post at a time. It's a bit difficult to help unless you give all of this up front.

If cost is an issue, do you really want to spend 3500 euro for a motor?

Again, I think you'd be better off with Series wound, you don't NEED regen. Think of what you could do with all that extra money that you'd spend on AC, you could buy more batteries and get more range. You're not going to get a HUGE amount back from regen. That percent can easily be offset by buying more batteries to begin with.

You want:
Lightweight
Cheap
144V voltage
High current
Air cooled

Good luck!

Pick 2, and only 2. What you want isn't readily available on the market.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Hey-hey,

I did NOT say cheap, but reasonable priced!

Also I need a motor that has AC-conformity for the TÜV-authorities here!
These start here in Europe at Eur 3.000 upto Eur 12.000 so I think the motor I choose is reasonably priced! Eur 3.500 is *including the Porsche adapater plate*- which I don`t need, it is cheaper without the adpater!

I would be willing to spend the same for the controller, but I don`t want it to be enormously more expensive than the motor itself.

Also, I did not mention the need for regen at all ... it is just an additional side effect!

I understand the sigma 2 at 144 Volt is OK for me, but there is little (to no) info on this controller in the web so far!

OK, I pick just 2:

*air cooled *
*at 144 Volt* (standard)

This was my initial question anyway - nothing else! But weight is *allways an issue* in EV, isn´t it? 

Any suggestions on this ?!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

If you don't need regen, then why go AC? Are DC motors not useable due to TÜV?



And if you want air cooled AC and 144V, do the gen4AC.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

There are little to no DC motors around here at 144Volt that have CE-conformity and are suitable (if so more than 150KG as they are cast iron)- TÜV in Austria is far more stickt on this issue than in Germany!

I don`t really want to choose the motor according to the controller - but vice-versa !
Sorry mate: The GpAC you refer to is *also water cooled*! & it is designed for* over 150Volt!*

*Please DO read the requirements I posted!*


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

http://www.evparts.com/products/str...8-to-96-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt5615.htm



Roy


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

again, as I said this layout is for 96Volt (and only max 120V) - not 144Volt , 
see primary post above! In Austria I could run this only at 96Volts as according to the papers of the controller (TÜV)!

*144 Volt* (standard)
*air cooled*

is what I require!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Peterhase said:


> There are little to no DC motors around here at 144Volt that have CE-conformity and are suitable (if so more than 150KG as they are cast iron)- TÜV in Austria is far more stickt on this issue than in Germany!
> 
> I don`t really want to choose the motor according to the controller - but vice-versa !
> Sorry mate: The GpAC you refer to is *also water cooled*!


Sorry mate, read the datasheet:
http://www.sevcon.com/media/2116/gpac_data_sheet.pdf
second page, under Key parameters:


> Liquid or *forced air cooling*


And I misspoke, I meant get the Gen 4 Size 8, since you want 144V and air cooling.

http://www.sevcon.com/media/2092/gen4_size_8_flyer_web.pdf
second page, under Key parameters:


> Liquid or *forced air cooling*


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Aha- this is another sevcon, - OK!
Yes, I am on this controller and trying to get a price quote from sevcon, no answer so far. I seems like a good option. DO YOU KNOW THE PRICE?
It is a little weak - as I mentioned - only 300amps for 2min (x144Volt = 43 KW max) as it is designed for far higher voltage - this sevcon allready told me on the phone & that it therefore might not be ideal for my needs. 
I would get more power out with lower voltage and more amps on the curtis 1238-7601 (96Volt x 650amps = 62KW).

It would be cheaper and also avoid *forced* air cooling (means need of ventilator- I guess?). 
Ventilator again means weight, additional cables and space loss, which I could all use very well for the batteries instead.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

good luck, let us know if you hear from them. I've had very little luck with them.


If you don't want to do liquid cooling at those power levels even with high efficiency, it HAS to be force air cooling. You're talking about dissipating 2000-4000Watts of heat... and it WILL overheat at those power levels without some sort of *active cooling*. 

Passive cooling (heatsink) at these power levels not going to work for very long before the controller overheats. Just use a high CFM fan, fans are light weight. 

Why not wait until the curtis comes out?


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Yaehr- thats what I might do anyway.

the project is due to start in autumn/winter this year- I just do the plan and layout now.

Any news form curtis, when this controller will be available?

Ah- ok, small fan, I thought I might need a big vent in the engine compartment like in an combustion engine -sorry!


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Just a little brain storming as I work on the heating-concept also at the moment:

In case *I would* use a water cooled controller, could I use the same water-circuit also for the heating?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you wouldn't want to heat the controller. Use a dedicated coolant line to the controller. If you heat the line, it reduces the ability of the coolant to cool the plate.

I'd suggest using active cooling on the new curtis, at those power levels, it'll need all the cooling it can get, otherwise it'll throttle back/overheat.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

No I meant: use the controller as the heat-source, i.e take the heat from controller to a recuperator and from this power the heating radiator in the car!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

it's not continuous heating, it'll only put that kind of heat out at max power..... a bit unreliable.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

OK- THX, just what I thought.


By the way - just came across another controller - even has a CE-mark on it:

DMCs own pro-ac range http://www.dmcde.de/Pdf/ProController%20Manual_Rev_3.01.00.pdf
Anybody heard of them before? or used them? 

I know- only 120V, but for real - already better than 96V!


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

have you looked at these controllers:

http://www.piktronik.com/index.php?...=category&layout=blog&id=13&Itemid=34&lang=en

perhaps one of them can fit your needs. I dont have any further information, so you would need to contact the company about price etc...if you do, dont forget to share it with us.


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## fb_bf (Jul 6, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much about the water cooling. I just finished converting a MG Midget, and I was intending to use air cooling for my Soliton Jr. controller. I didn't get the cooling I was expecting due to the tight conditions of fitting everything in a midget. I ended up buying a pump and radiator for CPU cooling. I couldn't even find room for the reservoir, so I didn't use one. The total cost for the components was probably $75 US. I haven't installed a fan yet because I could locate the radiator up front in the air flow. I have a description and pictures on my site, and if you have any questions please ask here or email me. It wasn't that hard, or that much time to put it in.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Yeah, I figured out that you might be right!

I just wondered because so many components now need water/liquid cooling: controller, engines, even batterie packs (dow kokam). 
Obviously higher voltage systems (above 140-160Volt) develop a certain heat . 
But I learned that several drivtrain systems allow to put the cooling *in row* (i.e. tm4, zytek), so that I would need only 1 radiator for ALL components, not 1 for each single component! This of course makes is easier and I could use the existing radiator.


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Hi Peterhase

I think i finished my conversion now and i am focusing on testing and driving now. The ACe5 is spectacular inverter once you figure it out. 
I had to read about 3phase motors and parameters. But i got it now.

I set it up for two styles of driving. 
First I have settings for showcase driving with 750A set to full power with dynamic response and low regen power. The power and acceleration is spectacular 0 - 100km/h is 7s!!! i can go beyond 150km/h and motor eats cca 70kW momentarily. However drain on the batteries is tough and also motor overheats quite fast this way.

Now i have it set up for normal driving at 700A. I have first 7% throttle on idle then moderate slope to 40% and strong slope till 100% throttle. The response is a bit slower now, but it is easier to hold at certain power on the highway. Regen is a bit smoother now. In this mode i drive straight at 110km/h with 130A and acceleration is cca 10s to 100km/h. Plenty enough for the little sports car MX3. 

I also have torque software for ACe5 that was written for my motor 28kW and that is quite a bit different from Heikos basic torque software for 44kW motor. 
If you are interested in ZAPI and the software i can send it to you with the settings for my motor. Heiko sells this kind of motor for 2300€ and i think it is well worth the money. Without it i would be stuck with 15kw Iskra AC motor, which is very good but too small for highway....

Arber


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Very good - sounds like the right layout for you.

I myself decided to get the E-Car-box from Germany company e-car-tech to avoid extensive cabling and to have most components in a sealed box with CE-approval.

The company is the European importer for curtis compoments so I have the curtis 1238-7601 controller with 650A (max) in the box.

Final wiring is done now be a new Austrian company ev-cars (ev-cars.at) and they also have experience with this Controller in combination with Heikos AC motor (they fitted an Audi A2 with just these components) - so the decision for the curtis was a mere practical one. 

You can follow the works in my blog at www.tr6-electric.blogspot.com


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

i don't know what's in that controller, but wonder if it matters on the length of the cables? and whether you could turn the connector box on the motor around toward the controller and shorten up that long cable run?


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

In the contoller-box is the curtis controller, DC/DC converter, fuses & a kilovac ev200 main contactor which will be operated from the controller / ignition switch.
See here http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/public/file/PowerpAC_Scheda.pdf
In future the E-Car box will also feature the curtis AC 120-144V controller to come.

Yes - we thought also of turning the connector box on top of the motor around but when fitting the front battery box we found that there is too little space left for the cables, after all it is just 20cm additional length and we have a lot of space left on the side towards the cabin & only little spaces towards the front of the car.
Maybe best would be to turn it to the side, but I don`t know yet if this is possible.

 




P.S. Concerning the title of this thread: we decided to only fit 108V which means 34 lifepo4 sinopoly 200Ah. They guy at ev-cars is of the opinion that this would stress the controller allready enough since it is designed only for 96V originally. 
Moreover we could fit the 34 cells easily in the car with only 2 simple battery boxes without changes to the body and fitting the rear box in the postion of the former fuel tank (36 cells would have meant to fit them in the spare wheel compartment instead and make a whole new body construction here / lower the compartment, reposition a crossbar underneath, etc.).


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Your putting the Curtis controller inside the box ???

What are you going to do about cooling the Curtis controller.


Roy


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

It`s a ready-made, extensivly tested & approved box. It has cooling fins / heatsink and also an optional small fan, see http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/public/file/PowerpAC_Scheda.pdf.
We positioned it in front of the car where formally the cooler sat, so the heatsink stands very well in the wind.




Btw, there are many boxes with controllers inside, called "magic boxes" - so this is nothing new.
It also helps to meet the TÜV reqiurements for EMC since the box shields against the electro-magnetic influence.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Just asked cause this controller is well known to cut back when getting hot.

Roy


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Yes - this is exactly why we prefer to run the car only at 108V (34 cells) instead of the maximum of 115V (36 cells)


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