# System for Short Range / Hilly roads



## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

Could I interest you in a bicycle?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

bike/scooter, perhaps with a trailer for cargo might be a great fit?! There is a firm in Ft. Collins, CO specializing in exactly that turnkey kit form....


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

Thank you both for your replies. There are many factors that make bike/shooters impractical. The main one is safety. First there are no sidewalk for bikes. we drive on the left but tourist tend to forget that. I dodge a tourist at least once a month and with the island having 95% 2 lane roads it doesn't leave many choices to swerve. Did I mention it's legal to drink and drive?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

In that case, might I recommend an electric keg?

Another important factor here are your motivations. Are you trying to save money, or the environment? 

If it's mostly money, it sounds like your gas is a little expensive, but your electricity is crazy expensive. Also, while a low range build can save on battery costs, you still have to pay plenty for everything else, and with a very small commute your ROI would proportionally small. A decent hybrid or other compact might be the way to go.


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

Electric keg? After a few minutes of searching I get the feeling you are being sarcastic and referring to a keg that holds beer. I have to admit I laughed out loud when I came to the conclusion you were joking. If that is not the case please educate me. 

When I stated it's legal to drink and drive I was not referring to me drinking but rather the dangers of driving a motorbike on 2 lane roads and a plethora of blind turns with a bunch of drunks.


You bring up a good point that I did not address in my post. My motivations in not particular order are environment, financial (always a plus) and fun. I'm a tinkerer at heart and am always looking for a new project. The ROI is not a huge concern. If it could pay for itself in 5-8 years I would be fine with that. 

Someone set me straight but it seems plausible to build an EV that drives 3-5 miles then sit for 8 hours in the sun while solar panels recharge the batteries and drive another 3-5 miles. Granted the end of one days 3-5 miles would be followed the 3-5 miles the next morning without charge. Assuming I do not charge it at home.

The reason I want to avoid the number of batteries that most EVs I've seen is the fact it's seems unneeded for the range and I do not want to loose cabin/storage room. So I guess my long winded question is can a 6 battery system be built to provide this range. Are there motor/controllers that work with this low of voltage and still get a car up a steep hill?

And if these are all FAQs by ever noob of the forum please send me to the sticky.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

A small lightweight vehicle converted to electric with a small pack of lithium cells would be perfect. You could go with 120 volt system in a small lightweight fiberglass dune buggy and a small 7.2 kWh pack of 60 ah Calb CA cells. That would be like 38 cells at 120 volts. Should get you a solid reliable distance you need. Keep at a reasonable 500 to 600 amps max draw and a good lightweight affordable controller like the Synkromotive and you should be good to go. 

Be sure you have a top for your buggy on those days it rains. I assume you don't get snow.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, the keg bit was a joke. 

Few EVs can pay for themselves in 5-8 years. Yours will save you ~ $0.50/day or less, so unless you can do it on a forkenswift budget you won't be saving on it this decade. Of course, that's just the financial payback, and the hours of tinkering are payback enough for many.

You say 6 batteries, I assume you mean lead acid. Quick caveat: lead is cheaper up front, but more expensive long run than lithium. Most of us on lead can't wait to ge rid of it. However, if you were to use 6 8V golf cart batteries I think you'd have a fun little run-about with a range of ~8 miles @50% DOD (assuming 135 AH sticker).

There's plenty of info in the wiki, but I don't know how much covers low voltage systems.


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

I'll check out the Wiki. Thanks


I have 6 Optima marine batteries. I believe they are 55AH each. They were going be used in a battery bank for my home system but decided against it. Now that you bring up the 135AH batteries I feel I am way out of the ball park. 

In the link below the writer assumes an average sized EV consumes 0.3kWh per mile. According to this assumption my current batteries would only be good for 2 miles (4 miles if I exceed the 50% depletion rule) As I write this it clicked, that is what you are talking about when you say DOD. 
http://www.gavinshoebridge.com/elec...ery-pack-sizing-for-electric-car-conversions/


If all this is correct than 6 of these would yield 4.86 miles per charge.
http://www.powerstridebattery.com/storage-battery-ub121350-12-volt-135-ah-agm-battery

Reality is setting in and I find it exciting. Thank you all for your time. I will be returning after doing some much needed reading.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Zigmo

The beauty with current lifepo4 technology is that you can have a small battery pack who weight 80-100 lbs and take only little space who can supply a good amount of power to cover your short range. 

If you choose a lightweight donor car (lets say sub 2200 lbs / 1000Kg) and because you only need 45 mph to speed, a simple 72v conversion can be done with good result.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It's the hills that are the big issue. I doubt you need much acceleration.

Are the batteries that you have 12 Volt Optima deep cycle? 6 of them wired in series will produce 72 Volts. 72 Volts x 55 Ah = 3960 Watts. We will use 1980 Watts for usable charge to help protect the battery life. The weight of your conversion will take about 10 W per 100 Lbs to go 1 mile. So, if you have a 2,000 Lbs vehicle post conversion with you and your passengers/cargo, it would be 200 Watts per mile. And you could drive 10 miles around the island where I wish I was.

The next step is to figure out what motor to get, and what controller to get. Then there are a bunch of little stuff, throttle control, gauges, fuses, battery box, disconnects, motor mount, transmission coupler plate, power steering pump,72VDC-12VDC converter for lights...

Solar is a good way to go, we can discus that next. What type of panel do you have? Do you already have a system on your house? I'll let other people discuss this more, but I think if you had one of these: http://cnsandi.en.made-in-china.com...a-PV-System-off-Grid-Controller-72V-150A.html * attached to your 72V battery pack, it would work to charge it. Usually they let you plug in a power load to the controller (motor), and it might be possible to put the throttle control in between. I'm not sure that 150A would be enough to go 45mph or not to accelerate quickly. Others might have some advice there.

*I'm not sure where you can buy one of those controllers instead of 1000.


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

Caps18 said:


> It's the hills that are the big issue. I doubt you need much acceleration.


Correct. If my commutes were longer I would consider regenerative braking. Half the drive is down hill 



Caps18 said:


> Are the batteries that you have 12 Volt Optima deep cycle?


Yes



Caps18 said:


> The weight of your conversion will take about 10 W per 100 Lbs to go 1 mile.


Wow. That's much more promising than what I've read. Why the large discrepancies in range estimates from source to source?



Caps18 said:


> Then there are a bunch of little stuff, throttle control, gauges, fuses, battery box, disconnects, motor mount, transmission coupler plate, power steering pump,72VDC-12VDC converter for lights...


The fun stuff. I have determined to trade my Running CRV for a car that is better suited for this. One that I can get the coupler plate and mounts off the shelf.




Caps18 said:


> Solar is a good way to go, we can discus that next. What type of panel do you have? Do you already have a system on your house?


I have 12 of these on order:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/module-folder/Astronergy/CHSM6610P-240.html

These will be used with a Sunnyboy Grid-tie inverter. I only have room for 9 on my roof which leaves me with 3 spares. 



Caps18 said:


> Usually they let you plug in a power load to the controller (motor), and it might be possible to put the throttle control in between
> .


I don't understand what you mean? Are you still talking about charging and solar? I assumed I would use a rely to connect the charge controller to the battery pack when the ignition is off. When I read that line it sounds to me that you are saying to charge while driving.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Zigmo said:


> Wow. That's much more promising than what I've read. Why the large discrepancies in range estimates from source to source?


Watt per mile doesn't mean anything. A wH will move ~10 lbs a mile, so for a 2500 lbs car you would expect around 250 wH/m. However, that's not accounting for hills, which may take lots more.

Where the primary discrepancy you're seeing comes from is the Peukert effect. Some people are including it, and some are not. What it functionally means is that a lead battery will give you around 60-70% of it's sticker capacity. Combine that with 50% DOD for long life and you end up with 30% of sticker as what you should use to figure typical range. Obviously if you leave out the Peukert or DOD bit you'll get nearly double the range! (not).


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Watt per mile doesn't mean anything. A wH will move ~10 lbs a mile, so for a 2500 lbs car you would expect around 250 wH/m. However, that's not accounting for hills, which may take lots more.
> 
> Where the primary discrepancy you're seeing comes from is the Peukert effect. Some people are including it, and some are not. What it functionally means is that a lead battery will give you around 60-70% of it's sticker capacity. Combine that with 50% DOD for long life and you end up with 30% of sticker as what you should use to figure typical range. Obviously if you leave out the Peukert or DOD bit you'll get nearly double the range! (not).


 
During some late reading last night I stumbled across this quote a few times.

"There are lies, damned lies and EV ranges"


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Zigmo, that's a good lesson learnt there.

What sort of terrain/weather/space requirements does this vehicle need? Is it off-road, tarmac etc? The CRV being a 'soft-roader' inferred baymbe it was needed to access broken road surfaces, if not that gives alot more options and improves things from a power requirement.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Zigmo said:


> I have 12 of these on order:
> http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/module-folder/Astronergy/CHSM6610P-240.html
> 
> These will be used with a Sunnyboy Grid-tie inverter. I only have room for 9 on my roof which leaves me with 3 spares.
> ...


I'm using my cell phone so I will reply more later...

But imagine if your house was off-grid with solar panels, and you wanted to run the refrigerator, TV, and lights at the same time. You wouldn't have to disconnect your panels. Solar powered cars exist, but you might only be able to fit one on the roof of your car. For the short distances, it might just work.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Zigmo,



> These will be used with a Sunnyboy Grid-tie inverter. I only have room for 9 on my roof which leaves me with 3 spares.


The panels are 240W panels which is good. What Sunnyboy Grid-tie inverter are you thinking about? You might consider Enphase Micro Inverters for each of your 9 panels. At under $300 bucks a pop that might save you some money and you get inverters that are rated for 20 plus years. If one panel craps out you only loose one panel and not the whole string. I think Sunnyboy only warranties theirs for like 5 or 8 years now. 

I have 39 panels and a sunnyboy inverter. My panels are not rated as high as yours. To utilize the micro inverters you need panels that are 230W and higher. You should really shop around for panels and inverters. I mean really shop around hard.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Distances you see or hear about are mostly calculated distances from static formulas. In reality Lead Acid distances are around 20 to 35 mile MAX. You don't want to drive MAX. And before you get to the end of charge with lead acid the performance just sucks. Once you are at the 50% point it just drops off quickly. 

Lithium is the way to go and be sure you have a large enough pack to do double what you need in real world driving. That way you can get away with undercharging your pack and underdischarging your pack and still have more than enough power to get up and down the hills. 

Get a nice little light weight car you LIKE and WANT not one that will just DO. Budget a nice little AC50 setup and have a decently performing little car and one that utilizes regen and a decent pack of batteries. 

You don't want to build something that WONT work for your needs. Plan carefully and be prepared to have a blast when done. It is truly an interesting experience driving an electric car vs a gas engined car.


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Zigmo, that's a good lesson learnt there.
> 
> What sort of terrain/weather/space requirements does this vehicle need? Is it off-road, tarmac etc? The CRV being a 'soft-roader' inferred baymbe it was needed to access broken road surfaces, if not that gives alot more options and improves things from a power requirement.


Roads are paved but not in the best shape. My average speed including coasting down hill is 20-35MPH. In my CRV no need to slow down for crappy roads but if in a car I would have to slow down and maneuver around imperfections. 



onegreenev said:


> What Sunnyboy Grid-tie inverter are you thinking about? You might consider Enphase Micro Inverters for each of your 9 panels.


Solar is becoming big business here and a friend of mine works for the largest local solar company. He has also recommended going with Micro Inverters. Before that recommendation I was looking at:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/inverter-folder/SB-2000HFUS.html

Getting it through him I get a 20 year warranty on it.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Zigmo said:


> Roads are paved but not in the best shape. My average speed including coasting down hill is 20-35MPH. In my CRV no need to slow down for crappy roads but if in a car I would have to slow down and maneuver around imperfections.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So your going to get a 20 year warranty on the Sunnyboy? The HF inverter is built like the small micro inverters and is an excellent deal. The panels will have diodes on them so that if one panel gets shaded it won't take out the whole system. Micro Inverters are the best but if you can do your whole system at one time that HF inverter from Sunnyboy is good. I was thinking of replacing mine with one of those. What I am going to do since I have panels that are 200 watts and smaller is to use an extra HF inverter when I install my extra panels. Two of those will be cheaper than my current inverter when it was new. I use the Sunnyboy brand too but mine is not the HF inverter. 

Is your CRV a manual transmission? You might get away with keeping it but you might consider a DC motor instead so you can utilize the torque of the DC motor over the small AC and also utilize a larger voltage pack of cells. Even though your distance is minimal you still need extra power to navigate the hills and rough roads. So you will still need a decent sized pack.


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## Zigmo (Oct 2, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> So your going to get a 20 year warranty on the Sunnyboy?


They come with a 10 year but a 15 and 20 year are optional. Since I'm getting it through my friend the 20 year is only $400 more. They exclusively use Sunnyboy in all their systems. They are not in business of selling to the public just systems they sell and install. It's a great deal. I have to ask him more about the inventor and if he meant this one when he mentioned Micro inverters.




onegreenev said:


> Is your CRV a manual transmission? You might get away with keeping it but you might consider a DC motor instead so you can utilize the torque of the DC motor over the small AC and also utilize a larger voltage pack of cells. Even though your distance is minimal you still need extra power to navigate the hills and rough roads. So you will still need a decent sized pack.


It's an Automatic which adds to the need to trading it. I don't think they made standard CRVs. Could be wrong.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Zigmo, I was thinking if you don't need 4wd that's a good range saving, and if the weather is generally good a light weight small pick-up or jeep type vehicle with canvas top sounds good. Also, you could skip the transmission and run your motor through the transfer box (without driving the front, ie a locked transfer box without a differential) to give 2 speeds that would allow good low speed manouverability and drive ability and a second for faster open road travel, say up to 60km/h. The reserve is good, best to target keeping up with other traffic.

Can I ask where your secret paradise island is please? What access to purchasing or trading vehicles do you have? A lot will depend on this, and may affect purchase or delivery of your parts.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

(He said St. Thomas in the first post (18.33813 N, 64.89425 W))

I am trying to keep the costs down for him. I should have asked if this was important earlier. Lithium will cost some money, and it should be in the plan to upgrade in 2-4 years, but if he already has the 55 Ah batteries, possibly upping the Voltage if the hills are steep could help by purchasing one or two more.

Pictures of this Jeep and CRV might help too. And island pictures would be nice to help me daydream of where I should be relaxing in a boat anchored off the shore. On-line representative photos would be OK too. Is the Jeep manual transmission? Would that be a good vehicle for what you would use it for? Is it in good shape? Can you find a motor coupler for it?

I would look into making the top of the Jeep out of a solar panel. It might only let him go an extra .5-1 miles distance per hour, but it would help to increase the charge from getting too low in some situations too. And 1 panel would only be an extra 50 lbs of weight, wiring, and brackets.

I hope the Enphase inverters will work on smaller wattage panels than 230. I am having my 215W panels installed next week using the Enphase 215 inverters...

As for what I imagine you can do for wiring in a solar panel into a car is how this is wired:








You would also have you motor load controlled by the electric pedal connected to the throttle control on the positive line going to your motor. I have a small 80W solar panel system hooked into a LiFePO4 21Ah 12V battery, and I can hook up a AC inverter and power battery chargers, LED lights, and my laptop.


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