# LED Headlight Experiment



## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Hello, I thought I'd post some photos of my LED headlight experiment. I'm using a single OPTEK, LED module (9 leds per module) in a test headlight assembly from a vehicle that used replaceable bulbs for the DIM, and the BRIGHT side of the assembly. These photos are showing one module mounted in the reflector of one side of the headlight. One photo is the assembly with the room lights on, another is with the room lights off, and the last is the LED headlight assembly sitting on top of a headlight with a factory bulb in place. The LED light, has a much nicer cast on objects, and the objects look more like they do in the sunlight to me. What do you guys think? I'm going for less battery consumption here, along with a better light, than the YELLOW look I get from the original bulbs. The camera doesn't really do them justice, but I'm not sure how to photograph something illuminating light anyhow.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

It looks good.

Do you have a cost comparison and a power consumed comparison X 2?

Trying to figure if the light is worth the cost for DIY.

Since the longest run at night, would be only 5 to 8 miles, I probably won't convert, but I like the idea of it.


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

It looks like my DIM headlights use aprox 4amps each, and the LED Headlights use aprox 1amp each. The LED modules are 10watts @ 330Lumens. So I'd be saving 6amps worth of power alone on just the DIM headlights. I plan on switching to LED's on all the light bulbs that are usually illuminated continuously when driving at night, along with the brake & turn signal bulbs. This all should help conserve power during night driving.

LED's do cost more than normal bulbs, but they last much longer also, along with the power savings, that will help my range with the Aux battery, or load decrease on the DC/DC converter will be worth it in the long run, not to mention they are just COOL looking.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

I'd want to know more about lumens (?) or candle power.
Can you see the same distance with the LED lights?
Can you show us pictures of something like a sign at 50ft away with both lights for comparison purposes?

Thanks,


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

I just replaced all my running lamps with LED versions today. At least all the lights that are on continously when driving at night, along with the turn signal lights. I had the lights on, while changing them out, just to make sure I changed all the ones that needed changing - Boy do normal bulbs get HOT!! even at just 12volts, what a waste of energy.

I like the idea of showing the LED Headlight on a sign @ 50ft, compared to the original headlight @ 50ft. I'll post some photos of that test when I get a chance to perform it.


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## rbgrn (Jul 24, 2007)

We've all seen plenty of LED taillights, turn signals and everything but headlights. I've been skeptical that they're bright enough to cover a good amount of area, so I'm looking forward to your tests..


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Just when I thought I had the market cornered for LED Headlights:

*Audi presents pure-LED headlights *

Christoph Hammerschmidt 
EE Times Europe 
08/10/2007 9:24 AM 
MUNICH, Germany — Audi claims to be the first car manufacturer using LED headlights. The company has developed a headlight assembly in which all lighting functions are implemented as semiconductors. 

The assembly contains low-beam headlamps as the main function, consisting of two LED arrays with four active elements each, embedded in a free-form reflector. Three additional LED arrays with two LED chips each are located behind an optical lens; their task is controlling the bright/dark boundary and the range of the headlights. For the high-beam headlight, a four-LED array is located adjacent to the low-beam arrays. Near the lower edge of the assembly, a row of 24 LEDs forms the daytime running light. Further elements of the lighting assembly are printed circuit boards carrying the LED chips and a heat sink. In addition, a blower is provided to keep the LEDs cool and to de-ice the unit. 

At a current of 1 A, each LED array achieves a luminous flux of 600 lumen, Audi claims. For the future, the company plans to combine the LED technology with other innovative semiconductor-driven headlamp technologies such as swiveling headlights.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Not sure if that's a good sign: Only 1 big automaker trying/doing it. 
But then again it would be cool if you put them all to shame.


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## jstack6 (Jul 26, 2007)

Just an FYI, Lexus is the automaker using LED headlights. A few others are starting to use them for signal lights. I even bought some replacement LED turn signal lights at Pep boys. 

They are the wave of the future, longer lasting much less power and less heat.

I even buy LED AC bulbs for my solar grid tied home ccrane.com I have checked anhd they do use 1/10 the AC of a regular bulb. They are so cool you can't feel any heat from them. In AZ in the summer heat that saves twice.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

I'm not Anti-LED, my taillights are LED installed by previous owner. 
But, until I can go to PepBoys or AutoZone and get them there (legally approved for headlight use) , or If they pass multiple TexomaEV distance tests, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'd hate to kill someone especially myself on account of a few amps...


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Ouch, Mannyman - I don't want to kill anyone either..... But I like experimenting with LED's. I think by changing out all my other bulbs (over 12ea not counting the headlights) which pulled at least 1amp or more each when driving at night to LED's saves quite abit on power consumption. This will extend my field winding's power pack range, since this pack also drives my DC/DC converter which charges my AUX battery once it hits 12vdc. The aux battery of course drives all the car's accessories, IE: Fans, Lights, etc.... If I were to get an LED headlight to illuminate nicely, I plan to use them in the place of the built in fog lights of the Eclipse. This would still give me the ability to use the regular headlights, but if power started declining, at least I could switch over to the LED Headlights to get me home, maybe ---:>)


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

Hey, I'm right behind you. I'm hoping you succeed.
They just have match or exceed a non LED headlight in range...
Having them as an emergency backup is a good idea too.

I must be getting old, because I remember a time I didn't care if I killed anyone ...plus the motorcycle and skydiving didn't speak much for my self preservation either...

So what's your total range again? It's a bummer that we have to plan our trips according to our battery packs or budget in time for recharging.


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

So far, I've only driven the car around 20miles per charge, keeping the pack as close to 50% DOD and that's the reading during the trip. If I let the pack recover a few minutes, the meter actually comes back up to around 25% DOD. So, I'm guessing my range would be around 30miles. Remember though, I'm playing with only a 78vdc main pack, since I can't build my EV over 80vdc here in okiEVille. This is why I need to conserve power everywhere I can.


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## Mannyman (Jul 26, 2007)

I keep forgetting about the low voltage. I'd look for energy savings in that situation as well, including putting my fat butt on a diet...


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## veperformance (Aug 17, 2007)

Very good idea to use led for headlamp but if the output is not sufficient you could use hid and still save since they use about 3.5A generally and they produce a much better output than regular year 1800 technology.as for the rest of your car you can save a lot more if you replace all light with led. as a example i replaced all 194 bulb in the gages assembly with led and it went from 1.3A to 0.071A.


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Another technology out there that IS great for headlights is HID (high intensity discharge)

They are very bright and use less power.

However, they need a ballast and take a minute or two to get to full power (sort of like gymnasium lights).

Seems like the trade-offs might be good for an electric vehicle.

Just Google "HID headlights" and there will be more than you ever want to know about them.

I am a big fan of LEDs and will wire up my bike with them as I can afford it.
For now, I am just sticking with my big old energy-sucking single headlamp on my cycle. I would like to replace it with something more efficient, but needs to be affordable as well.

Too bad I can't just screw in a compact fluorescent bulb!


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## moldiebrownie (Aug 29, 2007)

Mannyman said:


> I'm not Anti-LED, my taillights are LED installed by previous owner.
> But, until I can go to PepBoys or AutoZone and get them there (legally approved for headlight use) , or If they pass multiple TexomaEV distance tests, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'd hate to kill someone especially myself on account of a few amps...


I think Mannyman is right on the money here. I believe LED headlamps will need to be D.O.T. (department of transportation) approved. Until you see conversion kits like the H4 or HID ones...I would consider it illegal. Perhaps if they do illuminate adequately though...the cops might mistake them for HID and you can get away with it?


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

When it comes to LED headlights, I have to agree to wait till it becomes commercially available. I saw lab experiments that lead me to believe that what might be required for a headlight would take numerous LED chips that run so hot that it would necessitate water cooling. For now, stick with the smaller red, yellow, white bulbs that are somewhat reasonable. Now that would be appropriate for an EV. I can’t find a right angle stop light for my 94 S10… yet.

Also, headlights take 4-5 amps each (~50 watts). In the big scheme of things, that means ~1 amp at 120 volts of my system, which is nothing compared to the motor amps we all waste. I try to reduce motor amps as I drive (with an egg under my foot), but a bump in the pavement easily jumps it up 5-10 amps. If really trying to shave amps, go with an AC motor for better efficiency. But this is my first EV. The experience will dictate what would be nice on EV #2.


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## veperformance (Aug 17, 2007)

I dont know if you ever mesured current draw when you put your lights on but i was able to shave about 22amps by replacing all lamps with led exept for headlamp wich i replaced with HID.Add to these the interior lamp reduction of another 3.5 amps .If you only dirive in daylight i agree that it may not be a must but if you use you lights you might be supprised of the end result.Dont forget that if you use an inverter to make 12v from you main battery pack you loose even more because of efficiency of the conversion.


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

On my 120V system, it does charge the 12V battery from the pack. The E-Meter shows 2.1-2.2 amp draw with the key & lights "ON". That does convert (by Ohm's Law) to 22 amps/hr at 12V as you say, or 264 watts/hr.
What I am saying is that 132 watts in an half hour is nothing when I travel 14 miles at night and need about 7000 watts to recharge. I am all for saving money but the return on investment will take a long time to recoup.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

High,
Mike (aka: TexomaEV) You stated that you cannot build a bigger Battery Pack than 80V in Oklahoma. Is this a State mandate? Why?
Thanks,
dataman19
Phoenix, AZ


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

dataman19 said:


> High,
> Mike (aka: TexomaEV) You stated that you cannot build a bigger Battery Pack than 80V in Oklahoma. Is this a State mandate? Why?
> Thanks,
> dataman19
> Phoenix, AZ


Yep, as far as I know, Oklahoma is the ONLY state that has determined it unsafe for anyone who isn't a "Certified EV Technician" to have the right to build or service an EV over 80vdc. If you pay/and pass a state run EV Certification Course, and maintain that certification every year, along with obtain a huge amount of liability insurance, then you can build/service an EV over 80vdc. It's embedded in something like an "Alternative Fuels Act" that they enacted a few years ago. Yet if you convert a vehicle to all electric drive, you can claim upwards of 50% of the cost of the conversion on your state taxes.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

Maybe I should move back to Oklahoma...
Only problem is I would have to bring the "whole Lab" and staff!!
...
Can you provide a link to a state website that covers this "Certification Program"?
Would be much appreciated...
Thanks
dataman19
[email protected]


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

legality be damned I am going to try and make LED head lights. (and if they work I am going to try and get them DOT approved 

I don't have an EV but I have a similar problem as you guys. not much power lowering it will get me further and save me cash.

I drive a geo metro. I want to eliminate my water pump and my alternator but to do that effectively I need to lower the power demands of the headlights (one of the biggest pigs in the car) (I can get 7mpg by getting rid of the alternator probably another 5 getting rid of the water pump)

at 40,000 miles a year thats a lot of savings.

I found some nice 20watt 70mm 1900 lumen LED's from china. I have a couple different ones on the way. figure 1900 is over rated so figure i end up with 1500-1600 maybe 1200-1400 after lens losses. SO still around the 1300-1400 my stock lamps put out. In reality I am lucky if I get 1000 lumens with the crap wiring in the geo (fixing that tomorrow with a relay conversion for direct power) either way I plan for my LED lights to be brighter than the stock lights in this car.

I plan to mount them to a solid plate of copper (4 x 6 x 1/2") and on the backside of the copper I will mount two of these bad boys for each lamp. (attached picture) its going to be 10 pounds of copper so I will have to beef up the headlamp mounts a bit 

the LED will mount on the front.

now my only problem. HOW do I focus the light? ie how do I form the spot light of a headlamp?

I am going to take care of distance (ie hi and low beam) with a TILT mechanism.

point them down slightly for the proper lo beam distance point them straight out for "high beam"

I also plan to rig them for Ultra Low beam (around 900 lumens) for in brightly lit citie streets where the headlights are more so others can see you the streets are so bright. ie even lower power consumption.

suggestions on lenses? how would you do that?


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Seems like the reflector in the headlight assembly and the lenses itself would help focus and direct the light for you. Your LED find sure sounds promising. Would you be willing to share your source?


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

sure. Here is one (slightly lower lumen)

http://www.lightake.com/detail.do/s..._LED_Light_Emitter_Metal_Plate__12_15V_-41241

and the other one

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270714436713&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

this would be the voltage module for the second one

http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-12V-up-32...895?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5643cd0c0f

This is like what I will use for the "plate" to mount 2 of those heatsinks too and the led too

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280586345609&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

the hardest part is finding DRIVERS

most are made for 85-220 volts not 12v DC

dealextreme.com is another good source for cheap LED

I got some nice 10watt LED's (was planning to use 2 each side) but they are NOT spot as listed they are flood so I will use one each side as "side" lights when the turn signals are on. REALLY love that feature on my pop's lincoln so I want it on my car's too 

here is that one

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/10w-3200k-700-lumen-warm-white-led-spot-light-bulb-12v-55324

some help from you guys. LED's are current hungry devices. you have to limit the current or they FRY themselves.

what happens if I have the CORRECT input voltage though?

ie if I put 32v into a 32v LED? I used the calculators online to find out what resistor I need but they all "0" out ie need no resister. is this correct? I don't need a resister to limit current if the voltage is correct?

as for focusing. that's the issue though. I have no housing no lens assembly. I need to MAKE ONE. where do I start?


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

You have a tough road ahead of you. Maybe that is why I have not seen LED headlights at AutoZone just yet. At one time, I worked with a company that experimented with hi-powered LED’s. While not assigned to that dept, here are some things I observed in passing: 
--They need to stay cool some way. If liquid, plan on a pump. If a heat sink, add a fan.
--More than one LED is needed. That requires “precision” alignment & glued in place. Oh, by the way, those hi-powered led’s DO fail. I saw it happen. Also, have you seen those LED traffic lights with a few missing bulbs? And to keep the lamps in proper voltage rating so they don’t self destruct, plan on a circuit board that regulates proper V & A

I think the idea of tail & marker LED lamps is great.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

well my plan is to remove the belt from the alternator and water pump.

I found an automotive racing electric water pump for $130

this should net me 5 to 12mpg increase (I am sitting at 55-56mpg now)

I want to minimize how often I need to "charge" the battery. so that means reducing power consumption.

I have 3 big "power pigs"

nav lights (easily fixed)
Head Lights
Blower

headlights is my next task 

the blower is going to be tough. I can just not use it but when its wet and the windows are fogged I Have to use it.

since its usage will be limited I think I will be ok.

I want to try to get by with 2 deep cycles charging once per week.

I also plan to add 60watts of solar panels to the roof to charge while I am sitting at work each day 

yeah I am banned from cleanmpg. I stood my ground and their ego's would not tolerate that  screwem

I do post to geometroforum and ecomodder.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

TexomaEV said:


> Yep, as far as I know, Oklahoma is the ONLY state that has determined it unsafe for anyone who isn't a "Certified EV Technician" to have the right to build or service an EV over 80vdc.


how would they ever know who built or serviced the car?


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

nerys said:


> well my plan is to remove the belt from the alternator and water pump.
> 
> this should net me 5 to 12mpg increase (I am sitting at 55-56mpg now)
> 
> ...


Sorry if I sound confused, but removing the alternator by my calculations almost sounds like an exercise in futility. If two 55watt lamps = 110 watts and a HP = 746W that means 2 headlights consume 0.147HP when in use. How does that equate with a 7 MPG gain?


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

Thankfully I don't have to prove my position. in fact the reason I am even doing this is because someone else already has done it.

metrompg removed the alternator belt all together (and made a temporary belt for the water pump)

he say a 7+mpg gain. someone else with a VW diesel did the same thing and also saw a similar 10% gain. (yes at the time metrompg was netting 70mpg)

that 10% number is interesting because that is the amount of "power" its estimated that the alternator takes away from the engine.

its more than just electrical power consumed. alternators are NOT all that efficient so you have to factor in that amount of power and also the mechanical load of spinning it and its rotational mass.

all told about 10% of the power in these little engines (49hp 3cyl 1.0liter)

removing the alternator from my 24mpg jeep would not likely net me much with its 6cyl 4liter 190hp engine.

in my little metro its HUGE.

when I turn on the "lights" the engine stutters under the load till its systems can compensate. just the lights.

at stop to acceleration I am generating 8hp so 10% Is huge to me 

no idea how much the water pump consumed. I plan to find out 

I noticed on my mpguino that I lose a little over 2mpg instant mpg reading when I kick on the lights and the blower full blast.

I get those 2mpg back when I turn them off. thats just lights and blower (the blower is a pig it has a 30amp fuse for a reason 

one time I left my lights on for almost 3 hours (the AMAZING optima blue top did not even BLINK at this. Very much impressed me)

the engine stuttered and ran rough at idle the WHOLE drive back to the hotel that night because of how hard the alternator had to work to run my lights and recharge the battery.

I also plan to change the crank pulley to aluminum to reduce rotational mass.

I will leave the water pump and alternator in place (mass does not really matter to my style commute)

I could see as much as 12-14mpg improvement in theory (yeah right) if I see 5mpg it will financially be WELL worth it as that will save me $300 a year in fuel but cost me less than $300 to implement. So the ROI will be under 1 year. not bad. not bad at all.

if I actually saw a 10mpg improvement (I doubt I will see that much) I will save over $600 a year. (at $4 a gallon I drive 40,000 miles a year)

plus the lower maintenance of no more pump/alternator failure at least not as often.

I finally found some lenses for my LED's if they work out I might be able to go LED headlights soon  (fingers crossed)


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

Interesting stuff, but isn't the majority of your info more suited for Ecomodder, rather than this Electric car Forum?


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

why? if the solution is the same for both of us.

you want LED headlights to reduce draw on your battery.

I want led headlights to reduce draw on my battery 

got a thread their too  but ecomodder is not very "active" lately.


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## spdas (Nov 28, 2009)

You are free to post whatever you like as I am no moderator, just pointing out, for example in your post above, 95% dealt with pulleys and fuel and gas mileage, water pumps, etc. Most of the people here are interested in EV's. 

Even though your last sentence, "I finally found some lenses for my LED's if they work out I might be able to go LED headlights soon  (fingers crossed)

somehow deals with the subject.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

well YOU ASKED. I did not want to be rude and ignore you  (or whoever asked)


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Good luck on your quest for LED headlights. I think if you get an acceptable outcome that would be a great achievement.

It would be one more piece solved in the efficiency puzzle.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

I hope so. I DREAM of the day I can switch to fully electric. but until either something new comes along or we force them to use the NIMH batteries the range is just not their for the dollar yet. My commute is 54 miles one way so I need a 60 mile drop dead range worst conditions.

the leaf has enough range but at that price and projected lifespan its just not viable (though I commend Nissan for managing to make a $10k Lith pack that can do 100 miles that pack needs to come down to $1250 to compete dollar for dollar with nimh)


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> It looks like my DIM headlights use aprox 4amps each, and the LED Headlights use aprox 1amp each.


 That is at 12V correct? That would agree with my casual observation that current from my nominal 115V pack increases on the order of 1A when I turn on the headlights. If so, for a 120V pack, that would be 0.8A and 0.2A from the pack for two headlights. If you drive for 1 hour at night that is 0.8 Ah, 120*0.8 = 96 Wh, and 120*0.2 = 0.2 Ah, 20 Wh. Driving even at lower speeds around 35 mph my 2250 lb car uses about 180 Wh/mile. If I drive for an hour at that speed, using LED headlights would then increase my range by about (96 - 20)/180 = 0.42 mile, or roughly 0.42/35 = 1.2%. So although the LED headlights use a bit less than 1/4 the power, the power saved has a small effect on vehicle range, and even smaller effect at higher speeds. If you are also using a vehicle with very low weight and drag in order to minimize energy use the LED lights would be a more significant effect, but on a more normal vehicle it seems it would be a small effect.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

I agree 100%. my vehicle is not "normal" its 1600 pounds soaking wet and has a 3cyl 49hp engine. the alternator alone takes 10% of my engines power output.

for me its less about SIZE of savings and more about relative savings.

it will cost me about $250 to put in an electric water pump and convert to LED headlights. but it will save me in excess of $300 a year. so $50 the first year $300+ the second year etc.. etc.. IE well worth it.

And while I can not go ELECTRIC yet I can minimize how much of my money I give to oil companies by using less  hehe until I can go electric and give them close to NOTHING. and I will go electric. I have already decided I will NEVER buy a "new" car unless its electric. and not this slap in the face F*&K YOU USA volt filth GM's putting out either. Grrr that car makes me sooooo mad I want to burst.

My commute is also "not normal" I drive 40,000 miles a year minimum so I accrue savings from these kinds of changes rather quickly compared to the average person.

your .42 miles would be almost 1 mile for me (longer commute more at night) it would equal an extra mile per day or over 300 extra miles per year.

this means 3 "less" charge cycles on the battery pack per year if you get 100 miles to a charge. ie 3 FREE full charges per year.

to me thats worth it especially if its cheap to make the change.

I got the LED for $16 the Copper heat sink for $9 the lens for $4

so round that up to $30 each light. (assuming it works of course) so $60 for the pair.

good quality H4 bulbs are $15 to $20 a pop the bulbs I use (sealed beam) are $18 a pop.

so $36 for a set of bulbs. I usually get 2-3 years on my bulbs. (I drive A LOT) a lot less on the metro (rougher ride I think it "beats up" the bulbs a bit more than they like so 2 years)

the LED are impervious to shock of this nature and in THEORY if designed right will outlive YOU definitely outlive your car.

figure if you keep the car 10 years that's 5 sets of bulbs (in the metro 3 sets in a normal car) so $108 to $180 in bulbs alone depending on if you get 2 or 3 years out of each set.

you only paid $60 for the LED lights. 1/3 the cost. so already your saving upto $120 or more AND your saving 3 cycles on your battery PER YEAR (longer life on the battery pack) AND the electricity you would have consumed charging those 3 cycles.

thats a pretty good win in my book whether your driving gas or electric drive.

oh and don't forget your time and gas/electricity to "GO GET" and "install" those bulbs 3 to 5 times as they burn out Versus never again (in theory) for the LED.

Don't know if you can tell but I really like LED's  they save me money that makes me happy.  (I have about 60% of my house converted to LED) saves us over $40 a month in electricity.

problem is you really need to DIY this stuff and that makes it difficult. manufacturers do not want to go hard core LED unless they can keep the price HIGH and the lifespan LOW (relative to LED lifespans) ie more profit.

good quality cheap long lasting LED's are not profitable. :-( at least not as profitable as what we have now.

I have a particular green philosophy. its why I like LED's its why I want an Electric car.

Greener equals cheaper. if its not cheaper its NOT GREENER.

the very essense of green is USE LESS. if your using less its CHEAPER. if its not cheaper its not green or its "manipulated" (like electric cars are right now)

they can EASILY make a 100 mile range mid size 4 door sedan with a 25 year lifespan battery pack (10 for me) for under $13,500 with no subsidies using OFF THE SHELF PARTS.

they simply refuse too because its not profitable enough and they (auto/gov) lose control and we gain more freedom.

I am a hard core advocate of EV's you can bet your butt if my commute was less than 30 miles one way I WOULD HAVE AN ELECTRIC CAR no matter what it took.

I already have a 220v high amp outlet in my "parking spot" at work (family business) if I am ever lucky enough to have an EV. I am ready.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Don't know if you can tell but I really like LED's  they save me money that makes me happy.


 That's an understatement. Where do you get your LEDs? I've been thinking of making some under counter lights for my kitchen if I can make them cheap enough.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (Feb 19, 2008)

I found these Solstice Solo 10watt led lights over the winter. 

http://visionxsuperstore.com/SolsticeSolo2SquareLEDLight45/15EllipticalBeamXIL-S1103.aspx 

I bought one to compare with the H4 halogens I had on my car. The LED looked brighter to me and had a better beam pattern. So I bought 3 more. I have two 15x45 degree pattern for the low beams and two 15 degree spots for the high beams. I'll be mounting them in the fenders of the new body I'm building for my car. 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/239

Keep in mind there not DOT approved. I'll be setting mine up to best match the proper headlight aiming and horizontal beam cuttoff.

Eric.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

Ebay is my primary source. I get some from dealextreme.com

the trick with anything over half a watt is HEAT SINK. if it does not have an obvious and substantial headsink be very very concerned.

walmart has some nice .9w accent led for $7 that appear VERY nice so far. I use 3 to light up the doorway out front VERY effectively on 2.7watts.

be prepared to change "HOW" you light a room. you can not effectively use point source illumination like you can with incans and cfl's you need to use ARRAY lighting.

for example in the kitchen I use an ARRAY of 6 2.8watt LED bulbs. when money allows I plan to double that too 12 2.8watt bulbs but variac them to HALF that wattage so they will be as bright as 6. (increase their lifespan and increase their watt per lumen efficiency)

the GOOD bulbs are 3 or 5 watt and are half globe half heatsink.

if you buy the chinese high power stuff be prepared to take it apart and make sure it was "put together" properly 

a REALLY good source of LED lighting is after christmas.

5 & Below has 100 LED 30ft WARM WHITE (important) LED strings for $5 after christmas they were $2 I bought every one I could find.

Big Lots had these reallly nice short 2.4 watt strings for 75cents a pop on clearance. I bought 20. I will use these for under cabinet lighting.

LED's are very directional so you will need to "spread" light around to fill in shadow spaces that are more pronounced with LED lighting.

VANITY fixtures you usually see in bathrooms? you know the ones that are metal plates that hold 3 4 5 6 8 bulbs etc..

those are your friends. they allow you to ARRAY bulbs for needed brightness. (I use a 3 bulb one I got for $5 for the front door)

its actually brighter at 2.7 watts than 26 watts of CFL's

now 2 13 watt CFL bare are MUCH brighter than what I have but by the time you put them against the ceiling in a milky translucent and metal enclosure of glass well most of the light was wasted blasting the inside of the enclosure.

using the 3 bulb fixture and BARE bulbs 100% of the light was put to work SO you needed a lot LESS light since you were not wasting any blasting the inside of an enclosure.

Consider painting all your white ceilings the brightest glossiest white you can. this will make the entire room brighter by reflection. AVOID dark colors which require more lumens to illuminate.

The hardest thing to light with LED's is large open cavernous spaces.


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## KenB (Apr 6, 2009)

Just saw an ad for an "industry-first DOT approved 7in. LED headlamp" in this month's JP magazine. I don't know anything about the company or the product, but it may be worth checking them out: http://www.truck-lite.com. Ken


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

NAPA has DOT approved headlamps. https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=LIT27250C_0239876782&An=0

Kinda pricey tho.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

Those are interesting. I have been watching them but several problems.

They won't fit (but maybe I could mod my front end to use them) they are VERY expensive. $300 a pop VERY short lifespan 10,000 hours (anything less than 50,000 hours in my book means your ABUSING the LED's)

they consume darned near as much power as the HID at 32watts (but do have high and low beam output) the HID's consume 35watts

and they come with a pitiful 3 year warranty on something so expensive. a 3 year warranty tells me they don't expect them to last much more than 3 years.

Wonder if I can get them to just sell me the housing and lens unit IE non of the electrical or led stuff just the fixture.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

NOW THOSE are interesting. Expensive (but cheaper than the trucklite) I know some don't like this but I am REALLY not concerned about DOT approval as long as its safe and proper.

I could fit 8 of those in my 2 4x6 enclosures but 4 would do it. 2 each side 2 ellipticals for low beams and 2 15" spots for high beams.

power consumed by 4 of them 41.2 watts WAY lower than the trucklite or HID's and since I would primarily just illuminate 2 of them I would be generally consuming 20.7 watts a HUGE power savings with only a small "cut" in lumen output.

1800 lumens low and 3600 lumens high beam. right now I am running 2400 lumens low and 3200?? high?

so the low would be lower than my current low but the high would be higher than my current high. I could live with that.

I do NOT like the blue cast to the color though. I wish they would do slightly lower kelvin value at least "day white" instead of that blue cast color.

they are expensive $120 a pop (so $480 total) but cheaper than the truck light longer lasting and lower power and modular. it also proves that IT IS possible to do this at low wattage but effective lumens.

I just watched the video and WOW I am impressed. its not nearly as "blue" in use as the picture on their site makes it seem. pattern seems nice and VERY close to regular headlamps.

I think even 2 of these would be MORE than enough for a geo metro!


------------------
http://visionxsuperstore.com/SolsticeSolo2SquareLEDLight45/15EllipticalBeamXIL-S1103.aspx 


Keep in mind there not DOT approved. I'll be setting mine up to best match the proper headlight aiming and horizontal beam cuttoff.

Eric


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

nerys said:


> NOW THOSE are interesting. Expensive (but cheaper than the trucklite) I know some don't like this but I am REALLY not concerned about DOT approval as long as its safe and proper.
> 
> I could fit 8 of those in my 2 4x6 enclosures but 4 would do it. 2 each side 2 ellipticals for low beams and 2 15" spots for high beams.
> 
> ...


 I've built some lights at home using 5mm white LEDs. They consume 20 ma each at about 3.5 volts so I have to use a large number in series on a bridge rectifier chip to avoid lossy transformers. My front house number came with some cheap LEDs in them (from china) that burned out in a week. I tied into my door bell button for 28 VAC. A rectifier chip and an electrolytic cap finished the supply. Two years later my eight LEDs on perf- board burn brightly 24/7


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## pyroboy1080 (Sep 14, 2011)

nerys said:


> Ebay is my primary source. I get some from dealextreme.com
> 
> the trick with anything over half a watt is HEAT SINK. if it does not have an obvious and substantial headsink be very very concerned.
> 
> ...


You are correct about needing a lens assembly for the LED setup, however I'm inclined to disagree about what you have said about LED's being directional. I'm afraid this confuses me a bit, as LED's are not point sources, they instead exhibit a lambertian reflectance. This is important. Instead of spreading the beam, you have to collimate it into a usable beam. Most HID setups offer beam angles in the range of 18 to 20+ degrees. An LED instead will offer a near 360 degree beam angle. A good way to circumvent designing your own lens system which can be very costly, frustrating, and can yield less than superior results if you don't have knowledge of coated optics and photometry would be to seek out LED engines, with integrated beam control. Likely the best ones on the market today are made by Lighting Science, you can get 35 watt engines direct from Digi-Key. They run about $100 a pop, and have extremely high output in lumens. Also, you must be very careful in what you use/build to drive your LED's. If you don't drive PWM to certain LED's, you can blow them right up and start from scratch again. I would also recommend to experiment with either color mixing engines, or ones with white AND amber LED's, to allow you to adjust the color temperature. This is important as many states have adopted regulations to make it illegal to use lights that are not close enough to daylight temperature, and cause drivers to be blinded temporarily. I would also caution to ensure you have a rated output of near 65 lumens. I know this to be the limit in NYS where I reside, and I would expect other states to have similar regulation. This is because many people use HID's, others use halogen lamps, which have separate efficiencies and therefore wattage is not an accurate way of measuring light output across different light sources. I hope this information is helpful, I'm a student of Imaging and Photographic Technology, and a Lighting Designer. If anyone has any questions on the subject here, I'd really love to see if we can work together to get these LED headlights going, I'd really love to be any small part in doing so as is needed. 
-Patrick
P.S. This is my first post in the forums!


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Sorry, but high power LED units, like Luxeon rebels or Crees, are directional. They do "Shine" in a 180 degree arc, but they're logarithmically directional (That is, the brightness decreases in a logarithmic fashion the greater the angle from normal). Lenses are available to collimate the beam pretty much as it exits the led.

"Cheap" LEDs have one emitter, and the domed profile of the LED enclosure acts as a simple lens to scatter the beam.

I've been following LED lightsources for quite a while, especially on LumenLab, where they build home projectors using Laptop LCD panels and bright lights (Typically MH, though some have used HID, and one or two have tried building LED "Light Engines").


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

Misunderstandings
"What we've got here is a failure to communicate"
You don't know where I'm coming from.

Those of us that do a lot of homework rightfully assume we know more than *most* people.
The problem with forums, is we don't realize that some are extreme knowledgeable.
The problem with forums, is we also don't realize when someone doesn't have a clue and is just blowing smoke out his/her butt.

So take everyone's statements with a grain of salt until you know that they know, what they are talking about.

I always believe that whether a person knows what he is talking about or not, If they are posting to this forum, they are trying to be helpful.

Just like a good journalist, verify, verify, verify.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

pyroboy1080 said:


> Dude, you didn't even read what I said, or just decided to repeat it, or misunderstood.  P.S. Lambertian scatters are a cosine function, not logarithm.


I was simplifying the function, but you are correct, it is a cosine function.
However, you said: 


pyroboy1080 said:


> An LED instead will offer a near 360 degree beam angle.


Which is incorrect. The most you'll get out of a high-power LED is 180 degrees.


pyroboy1080 said:


> I'm not trying to get in arguments here, I just thought someone might need my help. Maybe it's better recieved at another forum.


I'm not trying to start an argument either, just trying to correct an oversight. A high-power LED will not require a reflector behind it, just a beam shaper around it, which are available fairly cheaply.


pyroboy1080 said:


> By the way, saying sorry doesn't mean you just get to be a dick. I'm a scientist who specializes in this. I've spent countless hours and over $50,000 so far learning about how light works. Have some respect.


I have no doubt that you know how light works, but your statements appeared to say that you thought LED light sources were the same as incandescent light sources, that is, that they were a point source that radiates in all directions. They are not, they are a (albeit small) planar source, that radiates in one direction. If you are not used to dealing with planar sources like this, it can take a moment to adjust your thinking.

No insult or slight was intended, and I for one will certainly be glad to see you taking part on these forums. I apologise if I came across as boorish or arrogant.


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## pyroboy1080 (Sep 14, 2011)

Anaerin said:


> I was simplifying the function, but you are correct, it is a cosine function.
> However, you said:
> 
> Which is incorrect. The most you'll get out of a high-power LED is 180 degrees.
> ...


I woke up on the a**hole side of the bed this morning.
Sorry 
And yeah I didn't mean that incadescent was the same as LED, but I guess the point is here I read your post too quickly and didn't realize what I was doing before I responded. Sorry, I'm a little impulsive sometimes.
Also, I've never looked at those Luxeons, are they any good? 
You're also right about 180 degrees vs 360. I forgot the emitter itself blocks the light pattern. But in this application, this is adequate. The important thing which we've both agreed on is collimation!


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

pyroboy1080 said:


> I've never looked at those Luxeons, are they any good?


They are incredibly bright, painful to look at directly (use welding goggles) and take a tiny amount of power. However, because the light is so concentrated, they do require heatsinking. Luxeons are nice, though the Cree units are better, and are available with larger light emitting areas. And with 231 lumens per watt, they're usable for marker lights, rear signal lights/brakelights and daytime running purposes, as well as dipped beams (If used in a group), but unfortunately not good enough for full/high beam purposes yet.


pyroboy1080 said:


> The important thing which we've both agreed on is collimation!


Right. And generally you'll find that places that make and sell them (Luxeon especially) also have made-to-fit lenses to collimate. In the case of the Rebels, all the way to 18 degrees, which is a damn fine start!


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## pyroboy1080 (Sep 14, 2011)

The Lighting Science Titan Turbo LED engines are really nice too. 2000 lumens at daylight, and 1000 at warm white. Probably more than is necessary in a car, but I've looked at them for other projects before.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

So a little power is like a little watts? Or a little amps?
...
Just what is - "A little?"
Does anyone have an actual figure, or are we all supposed to guess?
..
An associate put halogen headlights on his EV project.
Once it was built he got about 45 Miles on a charge at night, 85 during the day....
I swapped out the halogen headlamps for plain ole regular headlamps - his night time driving range jumped to about 80 miles on a charge (not great - but I'll take it).
...
It seems as though too many people are taking a known fact to literal.
...
Known Fact::: "10Amps at 13.8VDC is only about 1.4 Amps at 96 Volts. So don't be too concerned when you have an item that draws 5-10 Amps at 13.8VDC - this has a negligible effect upon the battery Pack.".
...
Folks - 138Watts is 138 Watts... I'll give you the fact that it's only 1.5 amps or so on the battery pack. The main reason that headlamps at night only have a slight impact upon battery pack drain is because they are headlamps (2.5 to 6 Amps nominal). Halogen are not regular sealed beam headlamps - they are Amp Sponges.... (time out gang - I know Halogen are also sold as regular sealed beam headlamps - I'm talking about super bright headlamps - which are normally just halogen headlamps).
...
How about that High End Super Stereo - don't get me started....
...
I like stereo as much as the next guy - heck I have a show off EV that has a monster stereo (and it gets only about 40-miles on a charge (65-80 if I don't power up the stereo - but where's the fun in that?).... We trailer it to show off events...
....
No Fred - We don't pull the trailer with an EV truck....... (shoot me)
...
An EVs range is only limited to the battery pack capacity - and that is determined largely by the motor/drive train. But if the headlamps and stereo almost equal the motor/controller power requirements - what's up? We all took math in school - last time I checked 1+1 = 2 ( 3 in new math). So you get what you get...
...
Now you've done it --- I'm preaching to the pack again... I need to climb down off this soap box....
...
All this talk about bright headlamps is giving me a headache.... In town headlamps are just so other drivers can see you (I would assume most towns and cities have street lamps - but you still can't safely drive at night without your headlamps).
...
Please post power figures when boasting or chiming about that wonderfully energy efficient amp sponge you call a headlamp... Otherwise you are peddling snake oil (maybe, maybe not - we can't tell. And we did all take math in school, hopefully most of us passed the coarse)...
..
Thanks,
(no disrespect intended - just making my point)
Dave


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## pyroboy1080 (Sep 14, 2011)

dataman19 said:


> So a little power is like a little watts? Or a little amps?
> Just what is - "A little?"
> Does anyone have an actual figure, or are we all supposed to guess?


Depends on your emitters, however "Power" is generally accepted to mean "Watts," being that Watts are a measure of power, whereas "Amps" is the SI unit for current



> Folks - 138Watts is 138 Watts... I'll give you the fact that it's only 1.5 amps or so on the battery pack. The main reason that headlamps at night only have a slight impact upon battery pack drain is because they are headlamps (2.5 to 6 Amps nominal). Halogen are not regular sealed beam headlamps - they are Amp Sponges.... (time out gang - I know Halogen are also sold as regular sealed beam headlamps - I'm talking about super bright headlamps - which are normally just halogen headlamps).


TRUE, watts are watts. However, there is a consideration to make, that all emitters are not equal. This is where it comes down to luminous efficacy, a comparison of lumens per watt. The luminous efficacy for various emitters can be found in the following:
Tungsten: 13 - 35 lm/w (depending on the type)
LED: 4.5 - 300 lm/w
Xenon Arc: 35 - 50 lm/w
Flourescent: 46 - 104.2 lm/w
Low Pressure Sodium Discharge: 100 - 200 lm/w
High Pressure Sodium (Commonly HID): 85 - 150 lm/w
Ideal Blackbody Radiator: 251 lm/w


> Please post power figures when boasting or chiming about that wonderfully energy efficient amp sponge you call a headlamp... Otherwise you are peddling snake oil (maybe, maybe not - we can't tell. And we did all take math in school, hopefully most of us passed the coarse)...


Let's say we have a 60W LED emitter. Now let's say the typical output is 2000 lm. At a voltage of 12v DC or somewhere thereabout, and 5A of current, we're looking pretty well balanced. Keep in mind, in Canada, acceptable output is anywhere between 500-7000 lm. Regrettably, I was unable to find the standards for photometric requirements of headlamps in the United States. The regulations are listed under FMVSS Section 108. 
Unfortunately, LED's have extremely specific requirements for current being driven to them, and normally require a PWM signal to drive them, rather than straight up DC. The drivers can certainly take away from your efficiency. 
I would go on to include much more information about HID, et. al. but this is the LED thread.


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