# [EVDL] Overheating behavior, motor or controller?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd say it is your controller. My Sevcon SepEx controller cuts back at
80=B0C which is 176=B0F so if the case is that hot the controller is
shutting down. Remember that the heat is generated in a relatively
small area in the controller and that the case is losing heat so it
will be cooler than where it counts. I'm quite sure you are running
the controller is being run beyond its continuously rated capacity for
the cooling it has and that is also why the motor is so hot.

The one time my controller cut back was on a hot day climbing a very
steep hill with an 800ft elevation difference in about a mile or so.
Near the top I started loosing power. After backing off the throttle
for a second or two I had enough to make it the last little bit to the
top. If the Altrax doesn't have as good of heat dissipation as the
Sevcon it might take it a while longer to recover.



> AMPhibian <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Trying to diagnose what seems to be a heating issue in a Sepex setup in a
> > boat. After running for 20 minutes or so it slows down and then shuts =
> down.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

170F actually, which is close to the shutdown temp of the Alltrax, which is
95C, or 203F. He's using an IR thermometer so internally it could be
hotter. My initial thoughts were the controller but I just didn't know if
the Alltrax does a gradual slowdown like that or just shuts down all at once
when max temp is hit. Both the motor and controller are getting too hot,
I'm first trying to figure out which one is actually causing the shutdown
behavior.
Regarding what is actually causing the higher temps in both motor and
controller, could excessive field current explain both? His shunt is
between the motor and controller and only shows 80 amps to the motor.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> > I don't think that is characteristic of an overheating motor. I think it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I haven't heard any comments on cooling for the controller or motor. You
have to realize that unlike a car in motion with air moving through the
various compartments, in a boat there is no air moving about. I am betting
you have a cooling issue. Fortunately all you need is a forward facing
scupper and an aft facing scupper and you have a ability to plumb in some
nice water cooling. For the controller a plate exchanger would work nicely.
For the motor maybe a heater core with forced air through the motor? 

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of AMPhibian
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Overheating behavior, motor or controller?

170F actually, which is close to the shutdown temp of the Alltrax, which is
95C, or 203F. He's using an IR thermometer so internally it could be
hotter. My initial thoughts were the controller but I just didn't know if
the Alltrax does a gradual slowdown like that or just shuts down all at once
when max temp is hit. Both the motor and controller are getting too hot,
I'm first trying to figure out which one is actually causing the shutdown
behavior.
Regarding what is actually causing the higher temps in both motor and
controller, could excessive field current explain both? His shunt is
between the motor and controller and only shows 80 amps to the motor.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> > I don't think that is characteristic of an overheating motor. I think it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Motor do not slow down due to Heat unless they are already in a state of
destruction.



> Mark Grasser <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I haven't heard any comments on cooling for the controller or motor. You
> > have to realize that unlike a car in motion with air moving through the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I run an Alltrax at about 90 to 120 motor amps for 30 minutes at a time, and
it does not heat up very much - the heat sink gets to perhaps ten degrees F
above ambient, and the diode temp inside the controller is perhaps five
degrees higher than the heat sink. I use a 1/4" x 8" x 10" aluminum plate
as a heat sink.

The motor heats up to about 150 - 160F during the same run (unventilated GE
series motor).

Is the person using a series controller with a SEPEX motor, or vice-versa? 

Is the motor correctly set up for that particular vehicle - Are the brushes
over advanced (or perhaps retarded) considering the direction of rotation?

Has he used the Alltrax logging utility to see if the motor amps match the
amps shown via the shunt?

Tom Keenan

> 170F actually, which is close to the shutdown temp of the Alltrax, 
> which is 95C, or 203F. He's using an IR thermometer so internally it 
> could be hotter. My initial thoughts were the controller but I just 
> didn't know if the Alltrax does a gradual slowdown like that or just 
> shuts down all at once when max temp is hit. Both the motor and 
> controller are getting too hot, I'm first trying to figure out which 
> one is actually causing the shutdown behavior.
> Regarding what is actually causing the higher temps in both motor and 
> controller, could excessive field current explain both? His shunt is 
> between the motor and controller and only shows 80 amps to the motor.

_______________________________________________
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|
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is best when mounting a motor controller, is to mount if vertical where 
the heat sink is also vertical with at least 1/2 space between the heat sink 
and mounting structure or chassis plate.

I use 5/16 inch rod couplers to make stand off mounted to a chassis plate 
which is also mounted in a electrical enclosure. I install those rubber 
5/16 inch nut inserts into the chassis plate to bolt the rod coupler to. 
The electrical enclosure is air cool with a Dayton filter blower plus the 
Z1K heat sink is water cool.

I have a Stewart Warner temperature sender mounted to the heat sink that 
goes to a on dash temperature meter which is normally design for taking the 
temperature off the surface of a engine. I also have a under hood 
temperature sensor and a sensor for the water coolant.

In Montana, we get 100 degrees in the afternoon for about a hour and then it 
drops to 50 degrees at night. If the EV is park outside, I have seen it as 
high as 140 degrees under the hood. The water and heat sink temperature may 
be as high as 110 degrees. The water is pump down low to a oil radiator 
about a foot off the ground which is mounted in front of the A/C and 
transmission radiator.

When I start up EV and turn on the coolant pumps and fans, the temperature 
of the controller heat sink and coolant initially drops to about 98 degrees 
if the under hood temperature is 140 degrees. The heat sink and coolant 
will drop down to the ambient air temperature if I only have the water 
coolant pump on. Turning on the blower fans, it may drop about another 2 
degrees.

I have both the feed and return lines of the water coolant lines with that 
good black thick A/C lines insulation. One trick you can do if your ambient 
is lot higher and running a A/C unit, is wrap the motor cooler return line 
around the A/C return line which is the coldest one and than insulated both 
of them together.

Roland








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Keenan" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Overheating behavior, motor or controller?


> I run an Alltrax at about 90 to 120 motor amps for 30 minutes at a time, 
> and
> it does not heat up very much - the heat sink gets to perhaps ten degrees 
> F
> above ambient, and the diode temp inside the controller is perhaps five
> degrees higher than the heat sink. I use a 1/4" x 8" x 10" aluminum plate
> as a heat sink.
>
> The motor heats up to about 150 - 160F during the same run (unventilated 
> GE
> series motor).
>
> Is the person using a series controller with a SEPEX motor, or vice-versa?
>
> Is the motor correctly set up for that particular vehicle - Are the 
> brushes
> over advanced (or perhaps retarded) considering the direction of rotation?
>
> Has he used the Alltrax logging utility to see if the motor amps match the
> amps shown via the shunt?
>
> Tom Keenan
>
> > 170F actually, which is close to the shutdown temp of the Alltrax,
> > which is 95C, or 203F. He's using an IR thermometer so internally it
> > could be hotter. My initial thoughts were the controller but I just
> > didn't know if the Alltrax does a gradual slowdown like that or just
> > shuts down all at once when max temp is hit. Both the motor and
> > controller are getting too hot, I'm first trying to figure out which
> > one is actually causing the shutdown behavior.
> > Regarding what is actually causing the higher temps in both motor and
> > controller, could excessive field current explain both? His shunt is
> > between the motor and controller and only shows 80 amps to the motor.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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> 

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What kind of airflow is involved? Either piece of equipment is going to
have troubles without adequate airflow. It sounds like both components are
cooking. I think it's more likely the controller is cutting back to protect
itself. I think motors just cook themselves. They don't have any way to
slow the incoming current; they're just slaves to whatever the controller
pushes their way.

>From what I've seen in this thread, it doesn't sound like the motor and
controller are being used past their limits, but without enough air flow, it
could be too much. That's really easy to do in a boat without forced air
ventilation because boats tend to use more power to reach a lower speed than
cars do.

As someone else mentioned, make sure the brush timing is appropriate for the
motor rotation. I've seen the damage and melting that can come from brush
timing intended for the reverse rotation. It isn't pretty and it IS
expensive.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of AMPhibian
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:07 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Overheating behavior, motor or controller?
> 
> 170F actually, which is close to the shutdown temp of the Alltrax, which
is
> 95C, or 203F. He's using an IR thermometer so internally it could be
hotter.
> My initial thoughts were the controller but I just didn't know if the
Alltrax
> does a gradual slowdown like that or just shuts down all at once when max
> temp is hit. Both the motor and controller are getting too hot, I'm first
trying
> to figure out which one is actually causing the shutdown behavior.
> Regarding what is actually causing the higher temps in both motor and
> controller, could excessive field current explain both? His shunt is
between
> the motor and controller and only shows 80 amps to the motor.
> 


> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think that is characteristic of an overheating motor. I think
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not sure exactly what he has or how it's all setup, hopefully I'll get a
chance to look at it soon. He says it's Sepex, using an Alltrax Sepex
controller, 36V pack of odysseys, normally run at half throttle and pulling
80 amps. Something seems to be causing a huge efficiency loss in the system
for the amount of heat he is getting in the motor and controller, maybe he
has the wrong field map in the controller. After looking at the Alltrax
website it seems as if the field is not directly user adjustable but you can
flash in a different field map to the controller.



> Tom Keenan wrote:
> >
> > I run an Alltrax at about 90 to 120 motor amps for 30 minutes at a time,
> > and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK I have some information. It's an ADC Sepex, AN6-4003, and I have photos
of the field map and motor specs at the following link.
http://s550.photobucket.com/albums/ii419/JRP3_photos/Motor%20specs/
This afternoon I'm going to put a clamp on meter on the field wires and see
what the current is in relation to the motor current.




> AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure exactly what he has or how it's all setup, hopefully I'll get
> > a chance to look at it soon. He says it's Sepex, using an Alltrax Sepex
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Took the field readings at four different motor current loads, 25, 50, 75,
and 100amps. 

Motor Field
25 4.7
50 5.7
75 8.3
100 10.8

Looking at the motor curves all readings are near or above the line for the
25V chart, which should be around where we are at half throttle and lower in
a 36V nominal system. Are the readings at 75 and 100 much too high, should
they be right on the field map line?
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii419/JRP3_photos/Motor%20specs/DSC01156.jpg


OK I have some information. It's an ADC Sepex, AN6-4003, and I have photos
of the field map and motor specs at the following link.
http://s550.photobucket.com/albums/ii419/JRP3_photos/Motor%20specs/
This afternoon I'm going to put a clamp on meter on the field wires and see
what the current is in relation to the motor current.




> AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure exactly what he has or how it's all setup, hopefully I'll get
> > a chance to look at it soon. He says it's Sepex, using an Alltrax Sepex
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Turns out the field map was fine, field current does not need to exactly
follow the map line, just be above it within reason. Airflow did the trick,
one blower on the controller and one on the motor let him run as long as he
wanted. He'll experiment with prop pitch to get RPM's up a bit more and
current down as well. Thanks for all the ideas. 

Took the field readings at four different motor current loads, 25, 50, 75,
and 100amps. 

Motor Field
25 4.7
50 5.7
75 8.3
100 10.8

Looking at the motor curves all readings are near or above the line for the
25V chart, which should be around where we are at half throttle and lower in
a 36V nominal system. Are the readings at 75 and 100 much too high, should
they be right on the field map line?
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii419/JRP3_photos/Motor%20specs/DSC01156.jpg




> AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> > OK I have some information. It's an ADC Sepex, AN6-4003, and I have
> > photos of the field map and motor specs at the following link.
> ...


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