# Wheego Whip Battery Replacement Options



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Aestu said:


> My Wheego Whip has served me well. However, the range has decreased to just ten miles, which seems to make it clear that a new battery pack is needed. .......
> Should I get the Duracells, the OEM Discover, the Trojans, or something else entirely?


Ask that kind of question on a forum like this and you are going to get lots of answers for "something else"
....and that something else would be LiFePO or similar Lithium chemistry. There are some used good bargains in the classified section. Some of the Wheegos where upgraded by HPEVs and I think they used Voltronix. A few months ago I picked up 24kWh of Voltronix at a cost of $120 per kWh for a stationary storage project. I don't know what your total voltage needs are but there are some good Volt and Leaf cells out there that might be able to be configured for your voltage.

The lead acid vendors don't like to state capacity in terms of watts but those Batteries you linked are 1.360kWH (8v x 170 Amphours) and at $294 that equates to $226 per kWh. And remember with lead you don't get charging efficiency, but you do get Puekert robbing you of capacity.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

What would be involved in converting the car to accept lithium? I am inclined to just plug in new lead-acids because of cost and concerns about complications...


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Some people would find it challenging to take a step in the direction of efficiency and some probability the a lithium battery could last 2 to 3 times longer than lead. 
This is your decision and whatever you do it will be the right decision.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

Well, what would be involved in the conversion?


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I would start with figuring out how many volts you need and how much space existing batteries take up. Then go to one of the vendors here and price some lithium alternatives. They come in many sizes and you probably won't need all the space that the lead acid batteries consume. Also you have some flexibility with how many Amhours you will need depending on the rang you desire.

Read some threads here, especially in the battery section. The central concept on this site is DIY, so if you are comfortable with that you have a a tremendous resource.
Finally, go to your profile and update your location. That way we know what resources might be near you, and easier to get you help.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Aestu said:


> Well, what would be involved in the conversion?


New charger or a way to stop a charge at a very specific voltage. I used a jdlh 401 from light objects when my elcon was programmed for FLA. It does read 3 volts high however.

At least 2 new cable fittings if you used automotive battery ends.

Battery/cells of your choice. My volt pack was $0.15 a wh at 380 volts. They split really easy and you can resell what you don't need, causing the cost to drop even more. Same for leaf packs. In my case I got all this for the same price as a new lead pack. Will it last as long? I don't know yet.

Some method for low voltage protection, either a voltmeter, or a controller setting.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

I think that is past my grade in skill and willingness to take risks. I eventually do want a lithium car, but will probably start fresh and when I have comfortable financial elbow room. 

For now, I would just like to know how the Sam's Club batteries compare to the OEMs.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

Or, so far as contractors go, are there any contractors in the Midwest able to convert the car to lithium?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

The Sam's batteries are pretty decent deep cycles. If you were happy with the OEM lead pack, you'll probably be fine with them.

Assuming your NEV has a 72v system:
A series of 9 of those gets you 72v, 160Ah for a total pack capacity of 11.5kwh. But! That's at a pathetically low amperage. Look at the 75A rate... you get 85 minutes, meaning when you're using the pack hard like a (mini) car will, you're going to get 7.7kwh from it at best.

Assuming your car has a 15kw motor, that's more than 200 amps not even counting all the lead voltage sag.

http://www.hybridautocenter.com/HAC...leaf-battery-module-model-2012-new&Itemid=605
A single string of 10 of these would make a 5kw pack that would weigh in about 84 lbs (vs 684 lbs for 9 8v 160ah Trojans... the Sam's page doesn't list weight). With the efficiency and extreme weight advantages, the range would be similar and it would last a lot longer.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

That's an interesting idea. Thanks! Follow-up questions...

1) The Whip uses a 96V system. Could I just use 12 and run the system at a slight undervolt, or should I use something else?

2) Is there an off-the-shelf charging unit that could be dropped right in with the new batteries? The Whip uses a J1772-compatible aperture, so attaching the new charging unit wouldn't require any major surgery to the exterior of the car.

3) The Whip uses a Curtis controller. Would I have to change out or reprogram the controller to talk to the new charger? That would be a much more major operation (we do have an OEM controller programmer available).


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Are you talking 12 - 12V batteries or 12 - 8v batteries. Check the Curtiss model # and find out what it's max is. If you are trying to save money, why are you thinking of replacing the charger? Does it still work.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

Twelve 8V batteries. Curtis 1311. Wouldn't the charger have to be replaced if we went lithium from AGM?


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Not necessarly, if you build a pack to a slightly less voltage than existing you can use a voltage cutoff relay like piotrsko suggested.


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

So all I would have to do is remove the existing batteries up to the charger, attach the cutoff and the new batteries, and...that's all? No new charger or controller? Should a cutoff be attached to each battery or just one for the entire pack?

Also, did update my location - am willing to work with help within a few hundred miles.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Drop-in Lithium replacements for car batteries are getting cheaper, and weigh a lot less. If you really wanted to up your range, you could replace your pack with two pairs (or 3, or 4) of 12 starter batteries.

Deltran now makes LiFePo starter batteries which can be charged with standard lead acid chargers (for a single battery) as long as the charging voltage is not over 14.8 for a single battery. A single set of 12 ought to get you as much range (or more) than the factory spec, given how much weight you would save, and the extra price would likely be offset by the additional number of charge cycles and reduced battery sag.

If you really wanted to be careful, you could created a mechanical switching mechanism to change between parallel and series, and simply use 12 car battery chargers of no more than 10 amps each...

Things are getting better...


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## Aestu (Nov 24, 2013)

And that's...drag and drop? 12 of those? That's it?

As a starter battery, is it suitable for deep discharge and high peak the way a golf cart battery is?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Aestu said:


> And that's...drag and drop? 12 of those? That's it?


I would size the amp-hours to match what his original batteries did, but yes essentially that is it.



> As a starter battery, is it suitable for deep discharge and high peak the way a golf cart battery is?


It is a LifePo battery - they don't make different ones for Starting vs Marine as they do for lead acid, just voltage and Amp Hours.

The price is still a bit higher, as I pointed out - but given the number of expected cycles before replacement is so much higher it is probably actually cheaper.

After finding that company, I found a few others. Some were a bit cheaper, others significantly higher. This company was interesting - they take some of the "risk" out of the batteries for a premium on price. Built in under- and over-voltage protection, overcharge protection, etc. However, at almost $600 for just a 40Ah battery that is a stiff premium. I personally would get 2x the cheaper ones and put them in parallel for twice the range, replace as needed. With twice the AH on tap, less likely to go bad anyway because they would operate at half the C level for the same load.

Edit: Looking at the "Smart Battery 50Ah" specs, it says you can get 2,000 cycles @80.1% discharge. Compare that to 200-400 cycles for lead acid, which get killed if you drive them that deep regularly, and even at $600 per battery it is a relatively good deal.


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