# Range extender used to make unlimited range



## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

some guys in Slovakia have taken a renault espace and made it better than the volt. It runs on pure batteries for 80KM then then put in a diesel generator that produces enough power to run the motor. Looks like the generator is home standby generator with a 2 stroke diesel engine.

it burns 2.5 liters per 100 km so thats not great BUT if you could go 80KM pure electric and if you needed to, switch on the generator to get back home and then charge it up for pure EV drive again...

I was always under the impression that a generator could not keep up with an ev drivetrain but they proved that if it was big enough it can be onboard and work.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

That's basically how series hybrid buses and diesel electric trains work - have done for decades


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Do you have any details? How big was the generator? was it AC or DC? what is their Wh/mile etc...


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

http://evalbum.com/1528

they just got kokam lithium polymer batteries from korea. they are working on a BMS. that would extend the pure EV drive even further.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

Manntis said:


> That's basically how series hybrid buses and diesel electric trains work - have done for decades


that I didnt know. I posted a question about using a generator to run the EV if driven past the range of the batteries. I am now wondering if the ev can be driven on generator AND recharge the batteries. when the batteries are recharged it could switch back to pure ev mode...


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> that I didnt know. I posted a question about using a generator to run the EV if driven past the range of the batteries. I am now wondering if the ev can be driven on generator AND recharge the batteries. when the batteries are recharged it could switch back to pure ev mode...


Depends on the size of the generator.

The real issue with using anything other than an automotive engine are a lot dirtier than auto engines. This article:

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?archive=1&storyid=260&first=4649&end=4648

Points out that the cleanest motorcycle engines for example are 100 times dirtier than any car engine, even an SUV.

Certainly something to consider.

ga2500ev


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> Depends on the size of the generator.
> 
> The real issue with using anything other than an automotive engine are a lot dirtier than auto engines. This article:
> 
> ...


Depends on what it's emitting, and its original carbon source.

A biodiesel generator, for example, may emit carbons but is relatively carbon neutral since the CO2 was taken out of the atmosphere maybe a year earlier, not millions of years earlier, so you're just putting back something the atmosphere hasn't compensated for in the interim. 

While canola based biodiesel gives you a yield of up to 200 litres/acre, there's the problem of cracking the meal, fertilizing, spraying pesticides, using up farm land, etc. Algae based biodiesel, however, can give you up to 20,000 litres/acre yield, no pesticides or fertilizing required, no farmland required, and can be fed bubbled CO2 from a sequestered source or literally fed sewage.

A series hybrid with biodiesel powered generator is among the cleanest you can go while still combusting a fuel.


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

michaeljayclark said:


> some guys in Slovakia have taken a renault espace and made it better than the volt. It runs on pure batteries for 80KM then then put in a diesel generator that produces enough power to run the motor. Looks like the generator is home standby generator with a 2 stroke diesel engine.
> 
> it burns 2.5 liters per 100 km so thats not great BUT if you could go 80KM pure electric and if you needed to, switch on the generator to get back home and then charge it up for pure EV drive again...
> 
> I was always under the impression that a generator could not keep up with an ev drivetrain but they proved that if it was big enough it can be onboard and work.


Argh! It's Slovenia, not Slovakia! Lucky my wife's not reading this (she's Slovak) and hates it when people get those countries mixed up. It's like people thinking I'm Australian. Not that I have anything against Australians. They are an odd bunch though...


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> that I didnt know. I posted a question about using a generator to run the EV if driven past the range of the batteries. I am now wondering if the ev can be driven on generator AND recharge the batteries. when the batteries are recharged it could switch back to pure ev mode...


After powering the motor the surplus can be put to batteries, sure... but it's a slow charge. If you had a powerful enough generator to recharge the batteries quickly, it'd have to be a large output one... meaning a big, heavy gennie, meaning a big motor to move the weight of the vehicle with the gennie on board, meaning more volts for the motor, and so on. At some point you get into diminishing returns.

The main advantage is the gennie can work away independent of the vehicle speed or load, so it can run at optimum RPMs.

One thing I've been interested in is a series hybrid with diesel generator (say, a mid size or full size car with a small diesel like in the Gen 1 or 2 Smart car). The engine/gennie would run throughout the drive, powering the accessories (air cond. and the like, even an alternator to top up the accessory battery) and providing vacuum for the brakes while the batteries need power only the motor and recover braking energy through regen.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

KiwiEV said:


> Argh! It's Slovenia, not Slovakia! Lucky my wife's not reading this (she's Slovak) and hates it when people get those countries mixed up. It's like people thinking I'm Australian. Not that I have anything against Australians. They are an odd bunch though...


my dearest apologies!!!

they are using biodiesel so that helps with the pollution issues. If they used waste vegetable oil it would smell like french fries! opps I mean freedom fries.....

still.... they produced a working model ALREADY and GM, Ford, etc have yet to do so


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> ... they produced a working model ALREADY and GM, Ford, etc have yet to do so


All manufacuters have done this, it's called a hybrid, but instead of using a lossy generator to run a motor and a lossy rectifier to charge the batteries, they put the HP straight to the ground, and use braking momentum to re-charge the batteries... Just a little different setup, but without all the conversion losses


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

Twilly said:


> All manufacuters have done this, it's called a hybrid, but instead of using a lossy generator to run a motor and a lossy rectifier to charge the batteries, they put the HP straight to the ground, and use braking momentum to re-charge the batteries... Just a little different setup, but without all the conversion losses


There are debates about the efficiency of the planetary connection systems used in the parallel hybrid models offered by Toyota and, under license from Toyota, by Ford. Generators are most 'lossy' if they're not run at the most efficient RPM - which they can do in a series system  

Both have advantages and disadvantages. It's unfortunate that the Honda system precludes electric-only mode, though.


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

on all the locomotives I maintained the diesel supplied enough power to run the motor from stop to it's full"working speed, carrying it's "allowable load", the only battery power came along for starting the locomotiveand the numerous auxiliaries!!I just had a look at a brand new loco and it is still the same. Of course like every other electrical field the trend is towards AC rather than DC. In Germany however you will not find any batteries on the Bundesbahn they use ESME(Russian supercaps) instead.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

Twilly said:


> All manufacuters have done this, it's called a hybrid, but instead of using a lossy generator to run a motor and a lossy rectifier to charge the batteries, they put the HP straight to the ground, and use braking momentum to re-charge the batteries... Just a little different setup, but without all the conversion losses



sorry but NO manufacturer has a pure EV drive to a maximum distance of the batteries then switchover to gas.. none of them run on electric motor only for 40 miles (unless you drive a prius at 15 mph and under until the batteries die which wont be very far)

the toyota prius is only electric motor drive to 15 mph then switches to gas

the ford escape hybrid's gasoline engine is always running, and the electric motor simply augments it, adding a little extra horsepower here and there to save some fuel

the honda hybrid is motor assist just like the ford escape. at no time is it electric motor only without the engine running.

no pure EV drive for 40 miles at all speeds. This espace to the exact kind of EV that would be accepted at this point. Majority of people I talk to all balk at having a limited range. when I talk about unlimited range but still burn gas they accept that.

there is small group of people that do not mind the limited range. obviously there are already people actively doing this.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> the ford escape hybrid's gasoline engine is always running...


After 9 minutes it can run in EV only mode under 32 mph. You can flash the chip to run in EV mode only without needing to start the engine at all, up to 45 mph - unless you turn on the air conditioning or interior heat.

Still, the range of its NiMH is very low.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

Manntis said:


> After 9 minutes it can run in EV only mode under 32 mph. You can flash the chip to run in EV mode only without needing to start the engine at all, up to 45 mph - unless you turn on the air conditioning or interior heat.
> 
> Still, the range of its NiMH is very low.


certainly, there is aftermarket mods but the manufacturers have still not stepped up to the plate...

I like GM ads talking about the hybrid suvs using less gas until they use no gas at all.....


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## electro37 (May 18, 2008)

I was inviolved in a feasabuility test of a Honda Civic here in a Canadian Military Base, the car performed like a dream, driven "only by it's electric motor"( no connection from the generator engine to the wheels). Apparently it logged-up an impressive 117-125 miles per charge, and gave the impression it was a super car(acceleration and utter silence). When the generator "kicked-in" it was only like a dull rumbling noise, hardly noticeable at all really... There were no problems at all with it, and why it is not on the Market selling by the million I shall never understand. For the starting and stopping of general life this car was superb with a capital S. Maybe there was not enough "profit" in its sales price? The system of of electro-drive with a generator or batteries supplying power is a "tried and true system" used in 90% of all locomotives, because the engine can be tuned for one speed and max. economy.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

electro37 said:


> I was inviolved in a feasabuility test of a Honda Civic here in a Canadian Military Base, the car performed like a dream, driven "only by it's electric motor"( no connection from the generator engine to the wheels). Apparently it logged-up an impressive 117-125 miles per charge, and gave the impression it was a super car(acceleration and utter silence). When the generator "kicked-in" it was only like a dull rumbling noise, hardly noticeable at all really... There were no problems at all with it, and why it is not on the Market selling by the million I shall never understand. For the starting and stopping of general life this car was superb with a capital S. Maybe there was not enough "profit" in its sales price? The system of of electro-drive with a generator or batteries supplying power is a "tried and true system" used in 90% of all locomotives, because the engine can be tuned for one speed and max. economy.


one reason I could think of is the system couldn't be patented to prevent others from simply copying the design. 

I would love to be involved in a non profit car manufacturer that made electric cars for the general public at $20,000 each. So even if the oil bubble bursts and prices drop they would still be cheaper than new ICE cars and still save tons of money.

A radio talk show host here in tampa mentions electric cars but someone called in and said their diesel car gets 40 mpg and if you get electric the cost of replacing batteries equals the same amount you are paying to fuel his car.

onboard generator works and is possible, already proof in concept.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

The idea hear is the definition of a HYBRID but still it applies to range extending:
Idea: Extending Range with an On-Board GenSet 
With the express purpose of being able to maintain HIGHWAY speeds without Battery Charge deterioration.

*Battery Usage vs. Battery Replenishment:*
The goal of an On-Board Genset would be ZERO Battery USAGE as then you would only be Range Limited by the GenSet Fuel Tank. 
Any use of the Batteries at 70 mph highway driving would lead to eventual stoppage via Battery depletion. 

*Usage: 14,000 Watts usage in one hour *
……@ a 200 Watts-per mile usage rate if you drive on the interstate for one hour at 70 mph you have used 14,000 Watts or 1,167 Amps @ 12v. 
…….200 watts per mile x 70 miles = 14,000 Watts 
......14,000w / 12v = 1,167a

*Battery Recharge/Replacement Rate*:
…….Rating on GenSet is in Kilowatts per hour 
…….GenSet output should be equal to or greater than Usage: ...14 Kw 
*OR plus 40%*. 20,000 Watts output needed or .....................20 Kw
(standard power factor correction for a GenSet powering rotating electric motor exclusively)

I have a diesel powered 12 Kw GenSet with a turbo on it in a Car Hauler trailer.
This GenSet uses 8 to 13 Gallons in 24 hours. (depends on A/C use)
Mileage Equivalent is;
24 hours x 70 miles per hour = 1680 miles traveled-Equivalent
1680 / 8 gals = *210 MPG-Equivalent *city driving
1680 / 13 gallons = *129 MPG -Equivalent *highway driving

*Range:*
A 10 gallon tank on a GenSet that gets 100 MPG-Equivalent would yield a 1,000 mile Range.
Realistically though stopping for 45 minutes after 5 hours is not bad. So you could go down on GenSet spec until your charge rate in 45 minutes is equal to the Battery drain after 5 hours. So maybe a 10 Kw GenSet would work.

NONE of the current Hybrids are doing their job. It is all about marketing and not about engineering. A hybrid that gets 25 miles to the gal?? (excursion) or 50 mpg ?? 
Better than nothing I guess, but a factory Honda crx in 88 got 45 mpg. Where is the OEM Economy car that gets 100 mpg as a hybrid ??


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

SuperChuck_A11 said:


> The idea hear is the definition of a HYBRID but still it applies to range extending:
> Idea: Extending Range with an On-Board GenSet
> With the express purpose of being able to maintain HIGHWAY speeds without Battery Charge deterioration.
> 
> ...


Typically in a hybrid configuration you can get away with far smaller battery packs than fully BEVs - the cost of the gennie is offset by the cost decrease of the batteries you no longer require. Best benefit of a series hybrid is, as stated earlier, that the engine can be run within its peak efficiency band and can also be used for accessories (turning brake vacuum pump, providing cabin heat or A/C pumping, etc.) that otherwise drain the batteries and seriously decrease range in a BEV.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> The real issue with using anything other than an automotive engine are a lot dirtier than auto engines. This article:
> 
> http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?archive=1&storyid=260&first=4649&end=4648
> 
> ...


Well he actually points out that a motorcycle is 100 times dirtier thatn his excellant _Prius_. 
i bet his motorcycle is still less polluting than my diesel dually.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

The pollution of 'anything other than an automotive engine' is due to other engines not being subject to the same emissions regulations, ergo they don't filter their exhaust through the same catalytic converters, cold recirculation systems, etc. which are more a function of the exhaust system than the engines themselves. Generators could be brought up to the same emissions specs whether or not the engines were originally intended to propel a vehicle.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

SuperChuck_A11 said:


> The idea hear is the definition of a HYBRID but still it applies to range extending:
> Idea: Extending Range with an On-Board GenSet
> With the express purpose of being able to maintain HIGHWAY speeds without Battery Charge deterioration.
> 
> ...


excellent, these are the spec I have been waiting to see and it proves my thought on how to produce a electric car hybrid using todays batteries would work.

and all proves the technology to run a electric car hybrid with unlimited range. now to just convince people they dont need to drive 100 miles per hour everywhere.

the first hurdle is range, second hurdle is speed. taking off is covered, an electric motor has way more torque than a gas engine but the top speed is the final frontier. 

I know you can put a monster motor in a car and go 150 m ph but then the batteries do not last long and you'd be running more on generator which would make the calculation of mpg even lower, but then again, if you could still drive fast and get 60 mpg. that may work.

whats the top speed of your ev?


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> and all proves the technology to run a electric car hybrid with unlimited range


Not actually correct - the range is still limited by the fuel capacity to power the generator.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

ok... so this means the generator doesnt recharge the batteries while the vehicle is in motion and then when the batteries are recharged switch back to pure ev mode?


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

michaeljayclark:I would NOT use my specs as god's word until the normal posters have picked them over. I was simply laying out that one idea in appropriate numbers. It seems most ideas don't put hard numbers with them.

under my Example the GenSet gives 100% power to the drive motor under HIGHWAY Speeds for superior range. 

Your question: You would have EV only power around town (depends on battery pack)
Of course any wattage above the Drive Motor use would go back into the batteries.
If your 100% powered by the GenSet then batteries won't need charging'
Around town you would hook up a low voltage kick on (mot inverters have on from the factory) to start GenSet when Batt voltage is low. 
On shelf tech is from Rv/Bus. 

You will not be able to carry more than a 50 kw genset in most cars........size is important you know. So to generaate enough Watts to go 150 mph everywhere as you say, you would need probably 120 kw or so. 
AS MANNTIS says if you have the GenSet on-board that will provide 100% power then you don't need all the weight and expense of a HUGE battery bank. 

If you want to make a your COMMUTE CAR an EV-Hybrid with an on-board GenSet, and say your 80 miles or less from work and it sits in the parking lot all day, you need a simple 'suitcase' generator and a battery charger and your all ready and you could get probably 200 mpg all the time. (Assumming your battery pack will give you 80 miles)


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> ok... so this means the generator doesnt recharge the batteries while the vehicle is in motion and then when the batteries are recharged switch back to pure ev mode?


in motion, parked, it doesn't matter... and can be shut off while the batteries are charged. But the generator still requires fuel. The main benefit is a smaller battery pack for the same distance, and greater efficiency as the gennie can run in the 'sweet spot' RPM range.

Keep in mind the electric motor, and the power it draws, must haul around the generator and it's fuel. you can't stand in a bucket and lift yourself up by it's handle


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## Thalass (Dec 28, 2007)

I hope to eventually try a series hybrid design in my EV, which is why I'm choosing a ute as a donor car so I have somewhere to put the generator outside the cabin (the engine bay will be full of batteries ). It'll probably be a small diesel engine tuned to run on JetA1 (since I can get that for free from work) but I'd like to experiment with a stirling engine genset because that has the potential to be a true flex-fuel system, being external-combustion it'll adapt easier to different fuels and is, in theory, much more efficient than an ICE system.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

Micheal:
Micheal I really don't think you can draw the conclusion of an EV with today's batteries and a genSet like I used in my example as de-facto BOOm done deal. 

GenSet ratings vs. Fuel use vs. Size
If you run your GenSet at 100% load it will consume GREATLY more fuel than 75% load. 
So since the vehicle load is constant we need to go up in KW ratings to drop the 5 load. 

Physical Size of GenSet
Why?? a 20 Kw diesel GenSet will not fit easily in most cars that EV'ers want to convert. 
For example a bug or a small sports car. 
The Electrical power head has to much diameter, compared to the OEM transmission among other things. 
I will measure my GenSet and see if it will fit in a 32 Ford Roadster. if it fits there then it will fit almost anything. 
Physical weight:
Also a 20 Kw GenSet and a small battery pack of lead acid batteries would be quite heavier than the OEM motor your replacing. (for a bug or Euro sports car)
if you converting a Malibu or a Charger then I think it will all work great.
if you use the idea of a GenSet on a tow-able trailer, that you use on long trips, then BAM space is no consideration.


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## hitechcobra (May 26, 2008)

I have some questions about using a generator as a range extender.

1. Using a Yukon/Tahoe SUV as a starting point, what size electric motor is required?
2. How many batteries (Trojan's) are needed for a 50 mile range at 45 mph - no hills?
3. What size generator is needed to add 10%, 25%, 50%, 100% in range? 

What if an extremely efficient engine like a Kubota tractor engine running on bio-diesel was used to drive a generator?

I don't know how long the batteries take to recharge. It is probably not possible to charge fast enough while driving to extend range. So what if the generator supplied the power directly to the motor when the batts reached a certain discharge point?

Can a small power-plant / generator supply that kind of power? What size generator is needed to supply 100% electrical needs for the kind of setup I'm referring to?

If that is a ridiculously large generator, then how about taking some baby steps and shooting for the other percentages in my number 3 question?


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

hitechcobra said:


> I have some questions about using a generator as a range extender.


Seems to be a popular topic now.

Before we get started can you take a minute to define your real objective? Honestly if your objective is to save money and use less fuel there are a boatload of simple ways to do it without converting to electric at all.



> 1. Using a Yukon/Tahoe SUV as a starting point, what size electric motor is required?


Considering that you're going to lose at least 20% efficiency in the automatic transmission, you'll probably need at Warp11.



> 2. How many batteries (Trojan's) are needed for a 50 mile range at 45 mph - no hills?


Pushing a 6500 lbs vehicle is going to be a minimum of 1 kWh/mile, most likely more. So that's 50 kWhs right there. Lead acids typically have 44% usable energy. So you'd need 114kWh just to get to a DoD of 80% each time. A Trojan T-105 offer 1.35kWh each. So you'd need 84 of them.
The 5200 lbs weight of the pack would push the vehicle over its GVWR. Though it may be possible to tow batteries behind the truck.



> 3. What size generator is needed to add 10%, 25%, 50%, 100% in range?


I actually think this could be figured out. The question is if you need 1 kWh over the course of a mile, then how many watts do you need to generate during that mile. Since you're going 45 MPH, You'd need 45 kWh for those 45 miles you cover in an hour. So you'd need something that generates 45 kW right?

1 kW translates to about a 1/2 HP. So for 45 kW you'd need a 90 HP engine and a 45 kW generator.

That should get you even, meaning that the generator is generating 100% of the electricity needed to drive the motor. You can now cut it up into whatever percentage you like. So a 15 kW generator would generate 1/3 of the power while the batteries would contribute the other 2/3s.

To recharge batteries you'd need a generator bigger than 45 kW.

Here you go:

http://www.gopower.com/prod/generators_50kwjohndeeresoundattenuatedgeneratorsetw2ftrailer_1684_.html

Only $22,700 and you can pull it behind your truck.



> What if an extremely efficient engine like a Kubota tractor engine running on bio-diesel was used to drive a generator?
> 
> I don't know how long the batteries take to recharge. It is probably not possible to charge fast enough while driving to extend range. So what if the generator supplied the power directly to the motor when the batts reached a certain discharge point?
> 
> ...



All of this begs the question of why to try to make a hybrid out of a 3 ton SUV? You need 2.5 tons of batteries and nearly 1.5 tons of generator to power it.

ga2500ev


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

ga2500ev said:


> To recharge batteries you'd need a generator bigger than 45 kW.
> 
> Here you go:
> 
> ...


 Wow ! ga2500ev I think you got the ticket there! Just replace the axle with a differential and Warp 13 motor and you got the pusher from "HELL" LOL J.W.


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## SuperChuck_A11 (May 29, 2008)

Thalass said:


> probably be a small diesel engine tuned to run on JetA1 (since I can get that for free from work) .


just on the off chance that you get this ides working ANd your in the US and of some reason you get fuel checked, are you aware of the fine schedule for haveng untaxed fuel in a road going car??
just sayin.
Homebrew biodeilsel would be better and EVRY hamburger restaurant as hundreds of gallons of it.


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

I dont an onboard is the end all and will be the answer to the EV. The LiPO battery is a much better answer but the cost makes it prohibitive.


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## dfwheelman (May 15, 2008)

michaeljayclark said:


> my dearest apologies!!!
> 
> they are using biodiesel so that helps with the pollution issues. If they used waste vegetable oil it would smell like french fries! opps I mean freedom fries.....
> 
> still.... they produced a working model ALREADY and GM, Ford, etc have yet to do so



You can buy the plans for this exact system from Mother Earth News. Titled How to build your own Hybrid Electric Vehicle

https://www.motherearthnews.com/shopping/detail.aspx?itemnumber=1764

I have this set of plans...comes in blueprint form interesting step by step


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## michaeljayclark (Apr 3, 2008)

there is a F-150 running 40 miles with 39 batteries pulling a trailer with a dixie chopper for a lawn service.

there is also a ford explorer with about 30 batteries going about 40 miles.

these are cheap batteries as well. nothing special.


I am guessing when GM has its spokes people like sean hannity to talk about producing a hybrid people want I am guessing they are saying people want SUVs. Hannity is pushing the tahoe hybrid that costs 50K and gets 21 miles per gallon in two mode operation. They say its a milestone considering the current miles per gallon for the tahoe now. There ad says GM helps us use less gas till we dont need to use gas anymore... wonder what that means?

I can take my 1995 lincoln towncar and drive it nicely and get 20 miles per gallon city and 30 miles per gallon highway at 55. no milestone there me thinks.


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