# Any motor/controller ideas for 70MPH 20 lead acid battery powered bike?



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

This has been edited to more clearly state the purpose of my bike build.

I can fit 16 batteries in the estimate for my one off bike build. If pushed I can fit an additional 4 elsewhere but it would ultimately take from the look.

The goal;
-Range (as much as I can get)
-Not speed but still needs to not hold up traffic
-Freeway cruising is ideal but 45 MPH initally isn't bad as long as it can be built up to have range on the freeway later
-Two wheels in the rear set closely to almost appear as one wide wheel to provide more stability
-Unique (The sterring, suspension, shape, frame, and everything else is different than a typical bike... making it an EV seems like a nice addition)
-Prefer to stick to lead acid batteries

It's alot to ask but I want to be able to just unplug and ride without running out of juice just going the store. Any suggestions would help!
________
FERRARI 340


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I think the first question would be what is the application? Is it a drag bike or a street bike? Also, unless you are going to go with an AC system 240 volts is more than any dc motor or currently made controller can handle. Another question is what kind of batteries are you going to be using to be able to fit 20 of them in there? They must be awfully low amp hour batteries.


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

1. Street bike (As I said before, may want to hit up the freeway but more or less want some decent range at 45MPH)

2. Figured I'd be stuck with AC (Not that AC is something you're stuck with, just more cash). What is the highest DC spec set up?

3. I'm using a rough build specs for the Optima batteries. My mock-ups are estimated at 12" x 8" x 9" for battery size and space between batteries. I think I'm going to cut the lenth a bit so I'll lose 4 batteries but I have space to make up atleast 1 or 2 elsewhere if really wanted.
________
Suzuki Gt550


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

As far as I know even the dc series warp motors only are capable of 192 volts. Problem is the only reliable controller is the Curtis, which has a limit of 144 volts. If you check out www.electricmotorsport.com they have ac motors up to 96 volts and 53 horsepower. Other than that, metric mind is the only affordable high voltage ac setup, if you consider 12000 dollars or so affordable. 

The best bike setups i've seen is 96 volt ac setup and some thundersky lithium battery packs. The couple of bikes i've seen have a range of about 90 miles or so with the lithiums and can achieve freeway speed easily.

That should also keep your weight under the 1000 lbs. range.


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

We'll I guess 96V to 144V would work. All the 96V builds I see only have a 10-15 mile range though. I want a decent range at 45MPH with a bike around 1200lbs. I'll consider other batteries down the road but right now they're not cost effective so I'll stick with whats common for now.

Side question that is probably more obvious than I could know but still. The more amps being pulled from a battery the quicker it drains; why can't the amps being pulled be limited to half. So the drain is then cut in half with twice the batteries? Like, a 96V system running off 192V battery set up and the power being pulled/taken from the battery is limited through the controller. Wouldn't that limit the amps being pulled allowing the batteries to run for a longer period?

If weight were kept at 1500lbs and had 192V for a 96V set-up that effectively limited the amps pulled through each battery to half the typical pull what kind of range potential is there? Is it twice the range; more; less; how?
________
LovelyWendie


----------



## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't know that much about controllers as I am still researching them myself, but they all have a voltage range on them. I don't know if they can take a higher voltage without burning up. That is a bit beyond my knowledge, but i suspect a bike with a thousand pounds in lead acids running at 144 volts or so should be lightning fast and go for 70 miles or so. 

Sounds to me like you are adapting a system that could easily propel a small car or pickup, so a motorcycle should be a breeze.


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

That was/is pretty much my tought. I don't want to be limited the build to typical bike spec bike. Instead adapt a car set-up to essentially mount up to a custom bike frame and call it a day. Ok, not that basic but still. Essentiall I'll be riding a battery case on two wheels with a motor stuck on it!

Still this leaves me with needs for the motor, controller, ect. What is the cheapest reliable 144V DC setup? I'm asking for a breakdown of every part I need to order now so when it all arrives I can just start putting it together. And, in the mean time I can moch up all the parts before the frame gets welded up. Any help?
________
Paxil Settlement Information


----------



## Jordan (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm just going on the record of saying this thing is going to be very hard to control and stop.


----------



## Tpb10505 (Nov 4, 2008)

I dont see how a 96v setup will only get you 10-15 miles?! Here is a 60volt bike (actually tapped at 48 b/c of the DC-DC converter) and its range is 20-30, and he can only fit 5 Optimas let alone 20! 240volts is more than any car/truck build ive ever seen. If you are willing to spend the dough on 20 optimas, why not go for lithium? Increased cycles, small size, and your bike wont weigh more than a small Volkswagen...

http://www.evalbum.com/2003

Try visiting Elmoto.net, strictly ev motorcycle over there


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

power is power is power..... If you have 200V and 50Ah, its the same power as 100V and 100Ah. Why do you need the high voltage? Is it "just because"? or is there some other reason you're trying to go high voltage? 

You could put 2 batteries in parallel and put 10 of those in series to get you 120V but twice the Amperage capacity and since each battery is supplying 1/2 the current, the peukert effect is lower.

Realize that volts is RPM and amps is torque when it comes to DC motors... and when you step to AC motors/controllers, the setups are very expensive. If you want torque/acceleration, get a series wound... they have higher torque than most other motors, and they're easy to find.... and the controllers are easy to get/cheaper. I think you can easily do what you want with only 6 batteries at at least 50-60Ah or so and a good high amperage controller and a series wound DC motor.

My bike (1986 VFR700, series wound motor, 72V 600A controller) easily reaches 65mph. The batteries are small and I've only got 2500Wh on the bike. I can get at least 15 miles at 45mph (batteries are used and pretty crappy, but they're being replaced). With my new setup (all new batteries, 120V and 28Ah = 3360Wh, I will absolutely be able to get to 70mph, and at 45, the range should be 25-30miles.... and its under 500lbs.
www.evfr.net


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

Ok; what about range at higher speeds. Freeway speeds. I know I know... lithium batteries. But if I have the space for a decent lead acid battery that I can afford (start smaller and build up to the full 20+/-) but lithiums are out of the check books capacity for now. How could I use a common, fairly affordable battery, with a custom set up and get long range freeway speeds? And, by long range I mean as much as possible just for the sake of doing so I guess.

But hey; Im moving back to cali and cruising the coastal highway on this would be enjoyable... doing it while doing the environment a plus sounds great to me. I'm just fabbing up a moch body b/c I still have some design elements to do but the frame will be continued shortly. Any ideas to give me a decent range while cruising 65+ would be appreciated. Im new to this but I can't imagine I can't get it done.

Oh, the batteries aren't cheap sure but I'd orderthem all through my brother and he'd return the commission he gets off them to me. So it's not as expensive as retail and will help on cost... lithiums aren't exactly on you local auto parts stores shipping catelogs.

Sorry, it's late so there are prob. a good amount of typos and half finished ideas but I think you get the idea. I just want a long range bike for fun... but optimas are my limit for now. Thanks
________
Review iolite vaporizer


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you don't need 20 batteries for a 25 mile range though, and you DON'T need to use lifepo4... lead acid is fine.... and highway speeds should be fine with 72V....

That is, if your original spec requirements have remained the same (45mph and 25miles with the ability to go 70mph+)


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

For the most part 45MPH is fine. But I'd like to cruise PCH when finished. So technically my goals have changed a bit. So range at freeway speeds. Over 2/3 of the weight can be batteries. Up to 20 batteries. Any thoughts how I can get range from this?
________
Home made vaporizer


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

range = watt-hours which equates to lbs of lead. More lead acid batteries, longer range. Higher voltage, higher speed. Higher Ah capacity, more torque.

take the Ah of the battery, multiply by 12V and then multiply by the number of batteries. 

Motorcycles usually get 100-140Wh/mile. If you have 3000Wh in your motorcycle, take 80% of that (due to the fact that its lead and can only discharge to 80% before it starts to hurt the battery). Then take another 10% for peukert effects and losses... for a total of 30%. Now you're left with 2100Wh. Take absolute worst case of 140Wh/mile (or close)... and divide... you get 15 miles. 

This is an example. If you wanted 25 miles, I'd estimate you need at the very least 4500Wh or so.

To put it into perspective, 4500Wh/72V = 62.5Ah or so... so you'd need 6 65Ah or so batteries... which is what alot of Emoto guys do. If you want longer range, throw 100Ah batteries in there, 6 of them, and you'd get more like 7200Wh and a range of 36 miles.... but its gonna be a heavy beast and handle like poo.


----------



## john818 (Aug 1, 2008)

SublimeZ,

I'm stunned. I can't imagine what it would be like to ride a 1500 lb bike. Goldwings are what, 800 lbs? Are there bike tires that can handle that much weight, or would you use car tires? I've heard that some people do that. And you might want to think about implementing Reverse.

Oh, and 20 Optimas retail for about $200 each, more or less. That's $4000 worth of batteries! If your brother gets you 20% off, that's still $3200. Elite Power Solutions' 77v Thundersky LiFePO4 motorcycle kit is listed at under $2900. Granted it's not anywhere near as much power as 20 Optimas, but it might be close to your minimum requirements, and is a lot smaller and lighter.

Sorry if I sound discouraging. That's not my intent. I just think you're way off on your estimate of how much battery you need for your stated range and speed requirements. Now, if you also want tire shredding acceleration, that changes things.


----------



## SublimeZ (Aug 15, 2008)

I re-wrote the opening to better specify the goal.

OK, if all else fails what is a good set-up using lithiums to get me the most range. Suggestiosn for batteries, motors w/ controllers, ect. I need to order something as I know the bike will be nearly done before anything actually gets to me.
________
Free Joomla Themes


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

still, if you want more range, you need more batteries..... same as a gas car. With more bats you need more room for the batteries.

You want a setup outlined for you? Since you only mentioned specifications, and not a budget.... here we go:

Go here:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_sepex.php
and buy the $1425 model

Then go here:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_thunder_sky.php
and buy as many of the large ones as possible (you'll need at least 84V worth of the 3.2V cell....27 cells....$4860)

then get these things:
magura throttle
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_throttles_magura_curtis-pot-box.php

Zivan charger for 72V
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_chargers_zivan.php

Astrodyne DC-DC converter
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_dc_dc_converters_astrodyne.php

Contactor
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_contactors_albright.php

a sprocket for your bike
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_sprockets_chains_2.php
and some chain

That should do ya.

Even if you go with lead, I'd recomend either the Sepex or the AC motor because of the ability to regen, and because efficiency is higher. You need the rest of the stuff regardless. If its over your price, you'll need to figure out what to skimp on.


----------



## metallover (Aug 6, 2008)

What about a Brushless DC system?


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

if he wants to hit 70mph, it might be hard... the only BLDC setup I know that is big enough to push a bike is going to be the mars brushless... I don't know if it'l push a bike that big to 70mph.


----------



## metallover (Aug 6, 2008)

Maybe 2-3 of those huge hobbycity outrunners hooked to one shaft would work. Their 7000w peak each. Someone put three on a gokart and got great speeds.


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

metallover said:


> Maybe 2-3 of those huge hobbycity outrunners hooked to one shaft would work. Their 7000w peak each. Someone put three on a gokart and got great speeds.


yeah, they might get some great speed, but its going to take a while to get there, I looked at the torque on some of those, and its REALLY low...


----------



## metallover (Aug 6, 2008)

Well outrunners have a TON of torque in the rc world. Instead of using an inrunner with a gear reduction going to a center transmission, you can eliminate the center transmission and use it in a direct drive setup. With lots of torque to spare.

BUT this application calls for a lot more torque.

Two of those motors would have nearly 19 peak hp on 48v.

Not to mention price. Pretty cheap on the EV scale. Figure under 300 for two motors and you can get two controllers for about the same price..


----------



## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

plus a gear transmission to reduce the 10rpm down to something useable....


----------

