# The Reasons why Automatic Gearboxes WILL Work with EV's & how to do it..



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Who am I?
A gearhead like you are. I now make a living in technology but am a certified journeyman mechanic as well. I'm in my mid-fifties and old enough to know when I'm beat and how to capitalize on other peoples work as well as their mistakes. I currently do racecar fabrication and I drive as well during those hours that Corp. America does not have her hooks in me. Like many gearheads, I have more projects than time.. When I crossed the boundary into my 50's I realized that I was burning hours on the sofa in front of the idiot box that I'd never recover. So I guess now I've traded seats and now spend at least some of that time in front of my PC whilst enriching myself on the Internet. During my years turning wrenches - I've been through many automatic transmissions. Of course I was baptised by fire when thrown into the deep end with a Turbo-400 from a pickup truck was assigned to me. (worked like a charm thank you).. I've a thorough understanding of these myterious slush boxes and have grown to both love and hate each one of them equally. 
I've had a dream since I was 10 years old to build a series hybrid. Yes over 4.5 decades ago. It was then that my Grand Pa (a brilliant engineer) and I sat down at the rail yards and he taught me how the "new" Diesel Locomotives worked. 
It was that principle that I wanted to use (in essence) in the creation of my own EV. Start out building and refining the car as an EV and adding Waste-oil diesel generator to the mix for a range extender. 
I have my own Mill and Lathe and, of course, welders.
Enough about me..

I've read through nearly 30 pages of YES YOU CAN and NO YOU CAN'T on the "other" thread.. I've addressed some of those issues here (if you can stand reading that much)..

I'd ask one thing of the participants to this thread -
Please keep on topic. Those of you that want to say how rediculous the idea is - please see other thread.

On with the show....
I see many people touting the line - "Well if you wanted a standard - why didn't you start out with one, that's what you're making your automatic into anyways!" Guys - read the PROs below - that's why..

PROs -
- Automatic is lighter
- Automatic does have "ParK" selector - Go ahead and use the parking brake on a Northern car that's 15 years old - You'll be calling a tow to the shop to un-freeze your rusted cables.
- Automatics are less intimidating to people that have never driven a std
- Many really good prospective donors have been passed up due to their transmission
- Conversion to a stick requires not only the transmission but retrofitting the shifter from auto to std.

Addressing the Green-ness -
- Automatic trans fluid can be recycled along with regular motor oil.
- ATF can be burned for heat very efficiently with super low emissions (it's done frequently up north here).
- Volume of ATF required is dramatically reduced over what's required with a torque convertor.
- Fire potential of the ATF? yes it will burn but you can pour it on a hot exhaust manifold and it will not ignite. It needs to be vaporized first just like diesel fuel or gasoline for that matter. I also think that the potential for fire and explosion is far greater from batteries not put inside of protective casings with crush-zones around them.

Various Notes made during the consumption of the "other" thread -
- Idling the traction motor to maintain pressure is out of the question in my estimation. Keep reading for more..
- Pressure leakage internally is minimal with a transmission in good condition. I've seen a transmission maintain pressure for as long as 30 minutes.
- Slippage on start-up - I don't think this is as big of a problem as some have stated it to be. Point in fact, you do want "some" slippage between shifts and startup due to the high levels of torque in the electric motor at lower RPM. Slippage and the torque convertor (not needed here) are where the vast majority of heat is created in an automatic trans.
- Most transmissions made since 1984 are controlled by the ECU or ETC (I-E Electronically controlled).
The interface to control it can be made quite simply since the actual control inputs to the transmission are binary (on or off). I would suggest that shifting of the transmission still be kept manual with a 4 positions controlled by the shifter. 2nd gear, Neutral, 4th gear (highest 1:1 rather than an OD) and Reverse. If you want to retain fully automatic controls, you could do that as well but with a higher degree of complexity.

If you have a transmission that's a bit of an internal bleeder - you could either overhaul it with new seals and gaskets or add an external accumulator. The Accumulator would have a low pressure switch to engage external pump motor to build pressure to a specific level (40 PSI would be enough). Depending upon the weight of the vehicle, you'll need between 40 and 100 PSI to keep clutch packs engaged without slipping. If you want to hot-rod it, you better be looking for pressures double that.

Speaking of Clutch Packs - I don't know of any automatic transmission shipped in a car that has bands any longer. They all use clutch packs now days. Clutch packs have far more friction / surface area than do bands so they require less pressure to operate properly.

Regeneration: Yes, the wheels will backfeed torque through the transmission to capitalize on Regen if using the AC drive system and appropriate controller(s).

Additional issues to be taken into consideration -
The input shaft of the standard transmission locates between the Pilot bearing and the front bearing of the transmission. This would have to be taken into consideration while making an adapter. This noted - the adapter will need to drive the pump of the transmission and be locked to the input shaft of the trans.

Let's have fun!


----------



## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

well put . I didn't know they were lighter except for the gm 2 speed . I've been posting about using transverse transaxle in order to get rid of the hypoid differantail and it's losses .gm and Honda makes lots of these . have you worked with them .


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I was itching to start this thread soon anyways...

I have an Automantic Transmission in my 1996 Civic EV and I have 135 EV miles going for me at the moment. So with that, here is my thoughts so far:

The coupling I have is the same as a clutch-type setup, making any torque converter mods unnecessary. I also found that creating a Torque Converter bypass (i.e. removing it) was a bad idea since it's the main pressure regulator in the Honda Transmission.

I am using a Honda A4RA 4 Speed Automatic Transmission with the following gear ratios, including Final Drive:
1st- 11.31
2nd- 6.38
3rd- 4.02
4th- 2.77

Shifter Selections: D2, D3, D4, N, R, P.

I usually start off in D3 and when it shifts into 2nd, I shift into D2 and the gear stays in second. It's usually good up to 40 MPH with my little 6.7" motor. However, in D2 the torque converter is not locked. It will lock in D3 and D4, and I will be testing those gears once my new 9.1" is installed.

The 1996 Honda Civic does have a PCM that is not too picky about sensors. That said, I would recommend making a new TPS sensor that connects to your POTBOX. It would help acceleration and better shifting vs the limp mode of shifting at different MPH instead of logical data, like throttle position, hill climbing, deaccel, etc.

I do not idle my motor. I throw it into gear and lightly press the accelerator until the cluthes engage, then I step on it. It doesn't do any damage to the transmission since the PCM will not engage the clutches until pressure is built up and a certain RPM is reached. So idling would just be a wast of power.

The only beef I have with the setup is that the Torque Converter doesn't lock in 2nd gear. That will be a simple fix, literally just adding a swtich to activate the 12 volt lockup.

Now for some data/specs: 
1996 Civic EV
6.7" K99-4007 Motor
Kelly KDH09401 400 AMP Controller
96 Volts using 8 MAXX29 12 volt 125 AH deep cycles from Wally World. 

I live in an extremely hilly area, and my initial Winter tests show I use about 350 WH/Mi doing 35-40 MPH. My motor is about 73% efficient at the RPMs I am using it at (yeah, sucks hence the FB1-4001A upgrade) and I estimate that my WH/Mi should go down to 260 WH/Mi with the new motor and using D3 for locking Torque Converter.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Hear hear, thanks for starting this thread. Although I am just starting to learn about transmissions, I am building EV with auto and convinced that it will be great. I agree with all your points, those are all same reasons I picked the auto. However, I decided to keep TC mainly because I am not comfortable enough with innerworkings of the auto transmission to disrupt its fluid path and volume. Perhaps I will learn something from you and remove TC on my next conversion.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Awesome post, Big-Foot! It looks like I will be getting a chance to test out some of your ideas/theories with Dimitri here as we merge his automatic Mazda with my new controller. It would be ironic and humorous if it turns out Dimitri doesn't need to idle the tranny at all to maintain crisp off-the-line response!


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Bigfoot,

WOW ! ! ! it's great to see someone else who beleives that an automatic is a good answer to EV conversions. You sure covered the ground better then I did.

Your personal history sounds a lot like mine, except I have 10 years on you and went tractor pulling indtead of racing. I am a certified Master Technician and was a licensed aircraft tech. I also went into the tech world (automotive specification databases). Got away from the BOOB tube (haven't turned it on in about 10 years. I left it in the corner so I could snear at it ocassionaly. Went to computers in the late eighties and love it.

I have started a couple of threads about automatics in EVs, but I think I was too specific in concintrating on the powerglide to really build general interest.

One problem with EV converters, is a lot of them are fixated on the BIG torque at low RPM of electric motors and seem to resist the idea of a transmission, finally, in the end, settling on a manual transmission because it is in the end easier to install the motor and that is the way everyone does it.

I have been reading these threads for a long time and a lot of people keep saying they want a two speed because all they normally use and need in their 5 speed manual is 2nd and 3rd or 4th.

I kept promoting the powerglide because it is probably the most flexible, strongest, easiest to modify transmission out there that I am comfortable with, AND it,s a two speed with the perfect ratios for electrics motors when used with differential ratios in the mid threes, 1:82 to 1 and 1 to 1, plus it has a Park.

I have pushed the glide in versions from a fully automatic torque converteless replacement for any RWD transmission, to a fully modified shorty turned sideways without bell housing to be used in three wheelers using chain drive.

Ouch, here I go again ranting on about the powerglide.

I mostly got just mild O hum interest and back to "you don't need a transmission if you motor is big enough".

It seems that there are two groups using automatic, those who thought it out and saw the value and those who were forced into it because of circumstances and later became believers.

I know that a lot of the people who have responded to this thread under stand that torque multiplication throught gear reduction allows the use of lighter, higher voltage more efficient motors and battery packs. 

Another factor that is addressed by using automatic in conversion is that a vehicle is produced that is more of a "just get behind the wheel" drivable vehicle. No special instruction and scarry procedures.

A lot easier to promote EV that way. 

I got to admit that the other way of adapting stuff can be more fun to the DIYer though.

When I started the EV conversion of my tractors, I made a decision not to build a street vehicle because my health precluded the effort. I get the impression that some here brush off what I say because I haven't done a car, plus I'm a bit wordy and not too politic (plus a very poor typest and speller) in my response to comments. I hope not.

Anyway you all have my support and any ideas and information I have available as you go forward.

Good Luck and make believers.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think it may also have a lot to do with the fact that most of us have enough to deal with in a conversion besides trying to make an automatic work, and the prevailing thought of those who came before us is that autos are less desirable. Not saying that's necessarily correct, but I, (and I suspect others), am not willing to go spend money on an auto to replace the manual I already have, for potential unknown results.
I appreciate your ideas and would like to see some people make these work, I'll let others work out the kinks


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think it may also have a lot to do with the fact that most of us have enough to deal with in a conversion besides trying to make an automatic work, and the prevailing thought of those who came before us is that autos are less desirable. Not saying that's necessarily correct, but I, (and I suspect others), am not willing to go spend money on an auto to replace the manual I already have, for potential unknown results.
> I appreciate your ideas and would like to see some people make these work, I'll let others work out the kinks


Yeh, I understand where you'er coming from. 

I have always been one to go ouside the box and sometimes I don't understand why others wont go there as well. You are a bit of an outside the box thinker yourself (not everyone would do a conversion on a six wheeler). But I think you have a tighter hold on reality then I do.

I love pushing the envelope, Look at a rear engined pulling tractor built from a FWD axle, a twin water cooled motorcycle engined pulling tractor using a powerglide with high stall converter. Now I'm converting to electric. All of them "Just Because" someone said it won't work. I've done the required research (you guys all helped with the research) and now know that it will, I just don't tell them yet.

Still . . . If someone in my area want's to do a powerglide, I'll give as much help as I'm phisically able. Just PM me. Big foot can tell you that switching out a trans is a lot easier then you might think.

PS 
If it's OK with you (please respond), I would like to PM you with some specific questions about what you recommend on six wheelers (you already gave me some general stuff). I'll be out and about and will start looking for a donor.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> PS
> If it's OK with you (please respond), I would like to PM you with some specific questions about what you recommend on six wheelers (you already gave me some general stuff).


 Go ahead, hit me up.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

I guess one "pro" for running an automatic is that the fluid medium acts to absorb driveline vibrations.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You shouldn't have any noticeable drive line vibrations in an EV, or an ICE for that matter.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You shouldn't have any noticeable drive line vibrations in an EV, or an ICE for that matter.


Au Contraire mon frere...

https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/1826/1694/1/Lee-2006.pdf


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I guess one "pro" for running an automatic is that the fluid medium acts to absorb driveline vibrations.


Other then the Torque converter (which better not be causing vibrations) there are no other fluid connections in an automatic. All planetaries, overunning clutches, clutch packs and yes even bands (in old stuff) are fully mechanically connected. Even the torque converter at hydraulic lock up (stall speed) has only a few percent slippage. Lock up converters on the new stuff gets rid of even that much slippage. they are solidly locked front to rear with no hydraulic connections.

Modern automatics are pretty efficient. Even less gear backlash then a full manual.

Wait till you guys get a look at the new dual shaft automanuals.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks for the welcome guys..

AeroScott - If you tack on the weight of the clutch, flywheel, and all the other peripheral "stuff" it takes to accommodate a std trans, the weight usually comes in with the automatic slightly less. The housings, gear and shaft sizes of the stds are usually much beefier as they have to be able to withstand more abuse than do automatics.

TheSGC (Curious handle) - Very interesting project!! I spent some time looking over your blog and pictures. Looks like you've had a lot of fun.
I take it that you'd already tried running without the convertor hence the lack of pressure regulation. Curious if you had maybe thought of an external regulator tied into one of the high pressure lines? 
You say you start out in D3 and then shift to D2 when the trans shifts to D2. I presume that's because the programming forces it to start in D2 if you start out there. 
I've not had much practical experience with the internals of the Honda trans other than changing fluid and filter. Interesting that the controller doesn't throw too many fits with the lack of inputs from the ICE. I suppose you could spoof some of them like RPM and Temperature.
Speaking of temperature - convertors are real horsepower wasters when they're cold because the amount of work they have to go through to circulate the fluid. I'm curious if you have measured the operating temp of the trans at any point in time. Your profile doesn't indicate where you live but you spoke of cold weather at one point. Minneapolis area has some hills but a LOT of cold.. -8 here yesterday morning.

Dimitri - WoW - What a good looking donor car you started with!!! 
I am still working out many of the kinks in my planning. I hope that I can share more as I go along. First I have this other little project in my shop that's about 40" tall that I need to finish and move out..

Tesseract - I'm very interested to hear (read) more about your controller!

Jimdear2 - Good to read you too! I've a lot of time in the saddle with the old Gliders.. I rebuilt an old Iron glide for a 59 Chevy once.. Darned thing cost me a hernia getting it up onto the bench. Finished it and was about to put it in the car when the owner called and said he wanted to have us convert the car to a 4 speed ((sigh)).. We had that transmission sitting around for the next 5 years and could not give it away because it didn't fit into anything newer than a 61... But - I've also been inside a number of the later alloy boxes and knew that they weren't the POS that a lot of people called them. So to get to business - yes, exactly - part of the rationale behind using the auto is to make the overall experience more of a "turn-key" one.. I'd like to hear more about your tractors sometime!

JRP3 - I have taken my hat off on dozens of occasions now to people who have taken themselves well out of their normal element and jumped headlong into EV conversions.. Yes, you're right - until the pioneers of the automatic EVs get enough of the groundwork laid to make it a less daunting proposal, it does not make sense for some people to add that to the list of things to do..

Jimdear2 JRP3 - Yes, the conversion from a std to an auto is a piece of cake in a Rear Wheel Drive application. The biggest task is just in getting the right driveshaft yoke to mate to the U-Joint. Now in the Front Wheel Drive - it's a whole 'nuther ball of whacks... Many times, it means swapping out of the axle/CVs as well..

TJ4FA - Not too sure I follow with the notion that the fluid medium would dampen out driveline vibrations. When the automatic is in gear, it's a physical "hard" connection all the way to the torque convertor. When the TC is locked - again it's a hard interface to the crankshaft of the engine.
I think for dampening out driveline vibration, we should be looking into more compliant motor/transmission mounts.. 

Guys - I think we're going to have a good time here...

Now - I need to go work on updates to a website so I can earn some money to help feed the habit... The habit in my shop that is..


----------



## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

I have very little knowledge of automatic transmissions as I have owned Manual Trans Vehicles most of my life.
So forgive me if this seems like a dumb question:
How do you plan on cooling an automatic transmission in an EV?


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> I have very little knowledge of automatic transmissions as I have owned Manual Trans Vehicles most of my life.
> So forgive me if this seems like a dumb question:
> How do you plan on cooling an automatic transmission in an EV?


Not a dumb question at all.. If needed, one could install a lightweight air/oil cooler from any number of manufacturers such as B&M or TransCool.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> Not a dumb question at all.. If needed, one could install a lightweight air/oil cooler from any number of manufacturers such as B&M or TransCool.


Or maybe an unused AC condenser taken from the scrap parts heap.

I don't know what temperature the heated transmission fluid will get, but since it will carry heated fluid, it might be another source to tap heat into the 
passenger compartment in cold weather by circulating it through a valve to the heater core when needed.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> Thanks for the welcome guys..
> 
> 
> TJ4FA - Not too sure I follow with the notion that the fluid medium would dampen out driveline vibrations. When the automatic is in gear, it's a physical "hard" connection _all the way to the torque convertor_. When the TC is locked - again it's a hard interface to the crankshaft of the engine.


I agree, but the fluid_ inside the torque converter_ is where torsional driveline vibrations are dampered. Until there is some direct physical connection like when the electric lock-up comes into play, there is some varying amount of slippage and fluid compression between the opposing TC turbine vanes.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Au Contraire mon frere...
> 
> https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/1826/1694/1/Lee-2006.pdf


From the document:


> The results of the investigation showed that the driveline vibrations for an electric
> vehicle driveline are not as rampant as that of a conventional driveline upon a sudden
> torque demand. A certain level of shuffle was also determined but it is hard to
> quantify if it was enough to be disturbing to the passenger on a subjective level.


So EV vibration is less than an ICE, and if I feel a vibration in my ICE I know there is something wrong, otherwise I don't notice it.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Big-Foot,

lets get into details of TC vs. no-TC and idle vs. no-idle approach. Lets look at power loss in numbers, not fiction. Lets look at cost and complexity of additional components required, such as pumps, shaft adapters, etc. 

Can we assume that we want to retain 100% OEM functionality, i.e. no startup delays waiting for ATF pressure? If I am on the hill with car behind me 5 inches away, I need to take foot from brake and onto throttle and start moving forward, not backwards. Those are my safety and convenience requirements. Let's see if we can meet those while also meeting cost and complexity requirements.

IMHO, and I am no expert by any means, if TC is gone then I can't idle, and if I cant't idle I need electric ATF pump, right? Which also means I need electric PS pump as well, since I want my power steering at startup when motor can't spin the OEM PS pump.

Also, if I take TC out, how can I make shaft adaptor, other than chopping up the TC to get those splines and then weld them together? That's pretty heavy work for average guy like me. 

OTOH, if I keep TC and minimum idle, say 300-400 RPM, which would put minimal load on the motor ( I can even turn it by hand right now, with everything in place ), then all those questions suddenly disappear, and the only one is left, how much energy am I actually wasting here? Let's try to put that in perspective...


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I agree, but the fluid_ inside the torque converter_ is where torsional driveline vibrations are dampered. Until there is some direct physical connection like when the electric lock-up comes into play, there is some varying amount of slippage and fluid compression between the opposing TC turbine vanes.


tj4fa,

Ok I see what you are thinking about. 

Actually the torsional vibrations in an ICE that you are thinking about are dampened and smoothed out by the physical mass of the flywheel or torque converter. That is why that heavy chunk is placed there

I suppose there could be some minor absorption in the fluid before lock up, but the real job is done by the actual mass. 

If the fluid was part of the engineered process, the vibration would come back as soon as the converter clutch engauged.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Yes, the D2 setting forces the transmission into 2nd and only second, where as D3 and D4 use all gears up to 3rd or 4th. The only code the PCM throws is my missing TPS sensor, which I have been too lazy to rebuild. BUt other than that, it works just fine.

I have not tested the ATF temp since it became an EV, but when it was an ICE the temp was about 95-145F on the hottest summer days going up hills. Usually it stayed around 60-75F when cruising.

For Dimitri's Idling- I hold the hand brake when at hills, and the time is takes is no different than it takes me on my stick shift to get going. I have also figured out how much power my tranny needs if I idles it. It sucks up a whopping 9 amps at 96 volts to keep it up, or 846 watts. That makes the same RPM and torque that the OEM ICE engine produced, so if I took my foot off the brakes, the car would creep forward. In the grand scheme of things, not a whole lot of power. 

One more thing, my first EV test run was extremely frustrating for me. I have everything wired up, $3K into this project, I hit the pedal and the motor spun up and I didn't more at all. After hours of checking couplings, connections, cursing and getting a OBDII scanner, I found out the Fuel Pump fuse I removed also controlled the ECU/PCM. But none of the documentation in the fuse box, service manual or car guide listed the PCM/ECU sharing the same fuse as the Fuel Pump.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Big-Foot,
> 
> OTOH, if I keep TC and minimum idle, say 300-400 RPM, which would put minimal load on the motor ( I can even turn it by hand right now, with everything in place ), then all those questions suddenly disappear, and the only one is left, how much energy am I actually wasting here? Let's try to put that in perspective...


dimitri,

I agree, there is one thing that appears to continually get lost in these manual versus automatic transmission discussions.

The original and only reason for an automatic, is driving convieience. Generally you give up some efficiency for convenience. That convienience comes from and only from the torque converter and its associated hydraulics. Since you have chosen an automatic that energy use is *NOT A LOSS*; it is the *PRICE OF THE CONVENIENCE*.

Sorry about the shouting . . . but we need to firmly establish that information before we can discuss this any further. I'm sure that the converted know this. the shouting is for all those who don't understand what an auto really does or who have pre concieved notions of slush boxes and internal slippage that we have to educate.

If you want the convienience of an automatic you WILL pay an energy price. You accepted a 1 or 2 MPG loss when you bought the car as an ICE you should accept a loss of energy as an EV.

To figure what the price is should be simple

Do your normal drive cycle in an ICE and count the time that you are not moving but are idleing. Figure how many watts you will use to maintain Idle pressures, either using main motor idle or an auxillary pump (your choice) for that peroid of time. Watts x Time = watt hours.

That is you cost of convience. If you don't want to/can't pay that price you are in the wrong forum.

The idea that a coupler and adapter for an auto is more difficult to make is ridiculious. The only difficulty is deciding to go with or without converter. Anyone who can make up an adapter/coupler for a manual, can do it for an automatic. (there are many converterless adapters available now in the racing world, right off the shelf). A machinist will have no more difficulty with an auto then doing one for a manual.

Where the oppertunities lie is in the newer electronically controlled autos. This is where the main focus of this thread should lie.

Automatic transmission planetary geartrains are very simple, Henry Ford used a planetary in the Model T. It is in fact less complex in part count then many manual transmissions.

The real complexity/scarry part was in control. 

The old hydro mechanical valve bodies are best left to experts, but they can in most cases just left alone and they will work fine fo an EV.

The electronic transmissions leave the field wide open for customizing.

Have Fun,

PS it thake me a loooooong time to type out onre of these. I appologise to those who also answered, Im not stepping on you answers.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> - Most transmissions made since 1984 are controlled by the ECU or ETC (I-E Electronically controlled).
> The interface to control it can be made quite simply since the actual control inputs to the transmission are binary (on or off).


This sounds interesting. I looked in my Haynes for my Jeep Cherokee to try to find out more about this interface, but either the automatic transmission in that one is a too old construction or the Haynes is not very detailed on the subject (has happened before) or, possibly, I'm blind (has also happened before...). Could you elaborate more about this part? How would the controller do to choose gears and does this differ much between brands or do most gear boxes look the same about this?

Oh, and I'm the software guy that's responsible for the program that runs the hardware Tesseract is building. Hence my interest.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Qer said:


> This sounds interesting. I looked in my Haynes for my Jeep Cherokee to try to find out more about this interface, but either the automatic transmission in that one is a too old construction or the Haynes is not very detailed on the subject (has happened before) or, possibly, I'm blind (has also happened before...). Could you elaborate more about this part? How would the controller do to choose gears and does this differ much between brands or do most gear boxes look the same about this?
> 
> Oh, and I'm the software guy that's responsible for the program that runs the hardware Tesseract is building. Hence my interest.


Usually an Automatic transmission changes gears by activating 4-5 12 volt solenoids in different configurations, allowing for the different clutches to engage. My Civic has the configurations for changing the gears, and I have been tempted to build my own PCM to allow for better gear selection, I just don't know the different signal patterns from the transmission's main shaft, counter-shaft, etc. How ever, I could just bypass them and shift according to MPH and have it translated into RPM to maximize efficiency.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Qer said:


> This sounds interesting. I looked in my Haynes for my Jeep Cherokee to try to find out more about this interface, but either the automatic transmission in that one is a too old construction or the Haynes is not very detailed on the subject (has happened before) or, possibly, I'm blind (has also happened before...). Could you elaborate more about this part? How would the controller do to choose gears and does this differ much between brands or do most gear boxes look the same about this?
> 
> Oh, and I'm the software guy that's responsible for the program that runs the hardware Tesseract is building. Hence my interest.


There's a little explanation on how an automatic transmission shifts gears down the page a bit on page 1 of the article linked below (which I think is an excellent article on transmissions in general).

http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> There's a little explanation on how an automatic transmission shifts gears down the page a bit on page 1 of the article linked below (which I think is an excellent article on transmissions in general).
> 
> http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html


 
tj4fa,

Verrrrrrrry Nice,

Good for those who don't know and also a nice little refresher for those who haven't gotten their fingers oily for a while.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Qer said:


> This sounds interesting. I looked in my Haynes for my Jeep Cherokee to try to find out more about this interface, but either the automatic transmission in that one is a too old construction or the Haynes is not very detailed on the subject (has happened before) or, possibly, I'm blind (has also happened before...). Could you elaborate more about this part? How would the controller do to choose gears and does this differ much between brands or do most gear boxes look the same about this?
> 
> Oh, and I'm the software guy that's responsible for the program that runs the hardware Tesseract is building. Hence my interest.


Qer,

Check around the hot rod world and the speciallty houses that supply automatic conversions. 

A lot of popular electronic autoboxes already have stand alone black boxes to allow transmission control with non ECU controlled powerplants. 

They are usually end user programmable.

No use re-inventing the wheel.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> tj4fa,
> 
> Verrrrrrrry Nice,
> 
> Good for those who don't know and also a nice little refresher for those who haven't gotten their fingers oily for a while.


Thanks Jim. The other automobile "bibles" at that guy's website are great too! He's even got a section on Battery and Hybrid vehicles in the "Fuel and Engines" section.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> I agree, but the fluid_ inside the torque converter_ is where torsional driveline vibrations are dampered. Until there is some direct physical connection like when the electric lock-up comes into play, there is some varying amount of slippage and fluid compression between the opposing TC turbine vanes.


Hi,

I've only a slight problem with the comment regarding fluid compression. I've always been of the understanding that only gasses can be compressed. I do understand what you're saying about the torque convertor absorbing torsional vibrations when not locked up. I won't say that it will absorb all of them. There are a lot of harmonics that come into play.

In that same vein - 

I reviewed the 122 pages of the Thesis you found and quoted earlier and found it quite a good read actually..

His summary and conclusion were as follows -


> *5 CONCLUSIONS & SUMMARY*
> 5.1 Summary
> One reason why there has not been much information on shuffle on EV is due to the fact that most of the vehicles made have been concept vehicles or test vehicles. As such, the interaction of the general public in terms of comfort and drivability has not been considered, since there is not a need to showcase these areas. Nonetheless, it has been shown that torsional vibrations can equally be interpreted through the methods and knowledge obtained from the study of conventional or hybrid vehicle
> drivelines.
> ...


So in conclusion - if there were any problems with the ICE driveline to begin with, they are essentially made even smaller by the conversion to EV power.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Big-Foot,
> 
> lets get into details of TC vs. no-TC and idle vs. no-idle approach. Lets look at power loss in numbers, not fiction. Lets look at cost and complexity of additional components required, such as pumps, shaft adapters, etc.


I'm all about facts, costs and complexity vs simplicity. 
In order to deal with real numbers we will need to perform controlled experiments right? A Proof of Concept with logged data points that persist across both tests.
If not - we will have to make some agreed upon assumptions that also persist.



> Can we assume that we want to retain 100% OEM functionality, i.e. no startup delays waiting for ATF pressure? If I am on the hill with car behind me 5 inches away, I need to take foot from brake and onto throttle and start moving forward, not backwards. Those are my safety and convenience requirements. Let's see if we can meet those while also meeting cost and complexity requirements.


Requirements are good - no successful project has ever concluded without them.
So that said - I have to say that I have a hill not far from my house where all of my automatic transmissioned vehicles will roll backward on until I give them gas. As will my std transmission vehicles until I get past the point of slippage of the clutch and appropriate application of throttle.
None the less - If we are assuming that the transmission you have will not maintain enough pressure during a reasonable period of time while waiting on traffic or a red-light - we will have to build pressure somehow. Whether the idling of the EM to generate that pressure via the front pump, or the application of external pressure from another pump and/or accumulator.



> IMHO, and I am no expert by any means, if TC is gone then I can't idle, and if I cant't idle I need electric ATF pump, right? Which also means I need electric PS pump as well, since I want my power steering at startup when motor can't spin the OEM PS pump.


I don't think that you'll need an external ATF pressure pump in all cases.
Matter of fact, the model I'm working on uses an external accumulator much like the ones used in racing circles. These accumulators have no additional pump. They take their pressure from the transmission's pump and store it up.
This one shown is a 3 quart model. I would use an electric solenoid valve on it that will close it off when the power key (used to be called ignition key) is in the off position.









Electric PS pump - it might have a slight delay. Although you could, in concept, fit an accumulator to the pressure side of this pump as well.



> Also, if I take TC out, how can I make shaft adaptor, other than chopping up the TC to get those splines and then weld them together? That's pretty heavy work for average guy like me.


Unless you have machine shop tooling (I do have) you are held hostage by your local machine shop or someone else to do your work for you in other areas. 
Such as - 
Bellhousing to EM adapter
Shaft to Shaft adapter
Any required welding if you don't have the skills or equipment.



> OTOH, if I keep TC and minimum idle, say 300-400 RPM, which would put minimal load on the motor ( I can even turn it by hand right now, with everything in place ), then all those questions suddenly disappear, and the only one is left, how much energy am I actually wasting here? Let's try to put that in perspective...


Yes - that's the big question - how much energy is it costing you.
with the solutions I've outlined above (using accumulators), the only additional energy cost is that of the solenoid(s) on the accumulators.

The only real way to tell is controlled experimentation.

It would be my assumption that there will be power lost in the creation of heat when you're using the TC. There's also the cost of additional weight. You've lifted your TC and you know that they are a rather hefty little chunk.
Of course I'm talking about the additional weight of the accumulator and lines. The one I have is aluminum and I would hazard a guess for it to weigh in at around 5 pounds.

It's all GOOD conversation!!!


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Qer said:


> This sounds interesting. I looked in my Haynes for my Jeep Cherokee to try to find out more about this interface, but either the automatic transmission in that one is a too old construction or the Haynes is not very detailed on the subject (has happened before) or, possibly, I'm blind (has also happened before...). Could you elaborate more about this part? How would the controller do to choose gears and does this differ much between brands or do most gear boxes look the same about this?
> 
> Oh, and I'm the software guy that's responsible for the program that runs the hardware Tesseract is building. Hence my interest.


Done a bit of firmware programming myself - a total gas!!!

Of course the decision making within the logic for the transmission control is made on a whole lot of inputs and logic. Throttle position, gear shift selector position, speed sensor, manifold pressure (ICE), temperature, etc. Solenoids are typically binary. They are all the way in one direction or all the way in the opposite. The solenoids inside the transmission move spools to divert pressure to one passage or another. In order to smoothen shifts, there are accumulators and restriction orifices that make the migration of fluid and pressure slower to be applied, thereby gradually engaging the clutches in the transmission.
This is far over-simplified but I think within the grasp of our readers here..


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> One more thing, my first EV test run was extremely frustrating for me. I have everything wired up, $3K into this project, I hit the pedal and the motor spun up and I didn't more at all. After hours of checking couplings, connections, cursing and getting a OBDII scanner, I found out the Fuel Pump fuse I removed also controlled the ECU/PCM. But none of the documentation in the fuse box, service manual or car guide listed the PCM/ECU sharing the same fuse as the Fuel Pump.


Not that I'm a fan of his, but I think this was a Homer Simpson moment - DOH! 

I absolutely abhor HAYNES manuals.. Everytime I went to reference one it seemed like they would tell me that this part should be serviced by the factory or a professional or....


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> I don't think that you'll need an external ATF pressure pump in all cases.
> Matter of fact, the model I'm working on uses an external accumulator much like the ones used in racing circles. These accumulators have no additional pump. They take their pressure from the transmission's pump and store it up.
> This one shown is a 3 quart model. I would use an electric solenoid valve on it that will close it off when the power key (used to be called ignition key) is in the off position.


Trying not to take this OT but since you mentioned a pressurized accumulator tank, I recently reseached some info after a member here (Elfiero) was asking questions about spinning up an electric motor and mentioned a 50lb flywheel. Since he mentioned some guys at a hydraulics forum, I believe he is contemplating running a hydrostatic system to drive an EV.

Part of a system I found Googling around mentioned an Inertial Storage Transmission (IST) that could also provide hydraulic regenerating braking returning pressure back to the accumulator system.

Since you are already talking AT systems and pressurizing the system, can this hydraulic REGEN feature be somehow be incorporated with your desire to use an AT system and get REGEN where the DC series motor is lacking? 

Some info about IST here:
http://www.rexresearch.com/carman/carman.htm

Edit: In the illustration below of the IST sequence, substitute an electric motor spinning a flywheel/pump in battery mode or using a very small ICE in hybrid mode.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Interesting TJ...

I worked with Hydrostatic drive systems for a while in the service.
We used them on some boats and a lot of heavy equipment like loaders and cranes.
Mostly I never saw them used on anything that exceeded 500 RPM though. Even at that - they were hauling the mail and made a BUNCH of heat.. 
The cool part about them was how you could drive multiple sets of pistons in pairs - as few as two and as many as 12 as I recall..


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Qer,
> 
> Check around the hot rod world and the speciallty houses that supply automatic conversions.
> 
> ...


Except that the "wheel" in this case - those cute little aftermarket transmission interfaces - seems to cost about $750 and they are still for hot-rodding an ICE vehicle, so a relatively expensive price to pay for for an imperfect solution.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Transmission control interface is quite simple for anyone familiar with microcontroller programming. I have couple of pages from Mazda shop manual I will try to post here, shows the whole thing in graphs and tables. Just takes few simple inputs and has few binary outputs.

Most aftermarket TCUs are universal, the difference is mostly in plug and play harnesses. They have PC based interface allowing to change shift patterns based on various input ranges.

Qer, I'm pretty sure you can whip one of these if you wanted 

I have a feeling that OEM TCU will work just fine, at least for my conversion, but in case it doesn't then I will be looking for custom TCU unit.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Transmission control interface is quite simple for anyone familiar with microcontroller programming. I have couple of pages from Mazda shop manual I will try to post here, shows the whole thing in graphs and tables. Just takes few simple inputs and has few binary outputs.
> 
> Most aftermarket TCUs are universal, the difference is mostly in plug and play harnesses. They have PC based interface allowing to change shift patterns based on various input ranges.


That would be great! We're planning some kind of expansion for additional IO's for ideas just like this so it would be great to get some hard data to read up on. 



dimitri said:


> Qer, I'm pretty sure you can whip one of these if you wanted


Thank you! Of course, this doesn't mean that we necessarily will pursuit this idea, but it's one of the possibilities at least.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Except that the "wheel" in this case - those cute little aftermarket transmission interfaces - seems to cost about $750 and they are still for hot-rodding an ICE vehicle, so a relatively expensive price to pay for for an imperfect solution.


Sorry, as usual I wasn't clear. I was saying that the technology and programing exists for ICE special conditions that means that some of that existing knowlwdge will apply to the EV world. All of the code can't be propriatary.

I was thinking that many of the existing motor controllers and proposed controllers have real time monitoring that should be able to be interfaced with a trans controller.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Just wanted to let Big-Foot and JimDear2 know that I am one of those who is planning to use a power-glide transmission on a conversion. I have the PowerGlide Transmission handbood and the Ideal Productions how-to video for the PowerGlide.

Here is what I am planning. 
PowerGlide transmission with no torque converter. Cut off the bell housing and use a shorty tail. Set up for full automatic with override-manual. 

Motor will be a 9 inch Warp (or equivalent).

Couple the tranny and motor with short custom mini-bell for a nice compact motor/tranny unit.

Qer and Tesseract: I would love to have one of your controllers but I am on a budget so I will be building my own from the open-source design of Paul and Sabrina in ecomodders.com. 144 volt 600 amp.

This way I can work at building the drivetrain/controller first and then all I have to do is pick a rear wheel drive vehicle of my choice and drop the unit in.

I like the idea of the accumulator to replace the electric pump for tranny pressure. Hope there will be more info about that method with a PowerGlide application.

That's it. Just wanted to let you guys know that there are others out here looking at auto-trannies for EVs. Keep this thread going.

Eric


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Just wanted to let Big-Foot and JimDear2 know that I am one of those who is planning to use a power-glide transmission on a conversion. I have the PowerGlide Transmission handbood and the Ideal Productions how-to video for the PowerGlide.


Getting this information is a good start on the project. The handbook and video should show you just how adaptable this unit is.



esoneson said:


> Here is what I am planning.
> PowerGlide transmission with no torque converter. Cut off the bell housing and use a shorty tail. Set up for full automatic with override-manual.


I'm not sure why you would want to go to a short tailshaft unit for the application you describe. Thats a pretty expensive set of parts. I wouldn't go that route unless space (length) was a real problem. But don't let my comments stop you from building what you think you need.



esoneson said:


> Motor will be a 9 inch Warp (or equivalent).
> 
> Couple the tranny and motor with short custom mini-bell for a nice compact motor/tranny unit.
> 
> Qer and Tesseract: I would love to have one of your controllers but I am on a budget so I will be building my own from the open-source design of Paul and Sabrina in ecomodders.com. 144 volt 600 amp.


I beleive this motor trans combo would work well at the voltage you describe with a differential gearing in the high threes or low fours. you would be spinning it fast, lots of voltage not too much current, everything should stay cool, not many watts lost as heat.

I'm being lazy by not doing the math to give you specifics (it's 4 am, I am sleepy) but gut tells me you should be able to obtain highway speed with the motor turning mybe 4000 rpm and lightly loaded.

Using electrics are just like using an ICE in one respect, just because it makes lots of torque, that doesn't meen you need to use it. It's there if you need it otherwise keep things lightly loaded and in the most efficient range.



esoneson said:


> This way I can work at building the drivetrain/controller first and then all I have to do is pick a rear wheel drive vehicle of my choice and drop the unit in.
> 
> I like the idea of the accumulator to replace the electric pump for tranny pressure. Hope there will be more info about that method with a PowerGlide application.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure the accumulator is the way to go, check out later posts. I have some points I'll make about possible difficulties. As you plan and obtain parts keep us posted, I will be watching you progress


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Qer and Tesseract: I would love to have one of your controllers but I am on a budget so I will be building my own from the open-source design of Paul and Sabrina in ecomodders.com. 144 volt 600 amp.


Yeah, we picked the wrong two out of the threes to be able to compete with price. 

However, no matter what controller you decide upon, make sure it has a nice track record! Building a reliable controller is hard, I never understood exactly HOW hard it is until I started to work with Tesseract. If you do it wrong it will blow up instantly but even if you do it reasonably right it might still blow up, you just won't know when until it happens. There's nothing that says that a cheap controller will be cheaper in the long run...

If I were you I think I'd keep an eye on E-bay, EVDL or here after second hand controllers with a good reputation like Curtis. If nothing else, perhaps some people will upgrade when we release ours...


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Here is some shift pattern data, hope its still readable after compression.

However, I don't think we actually need to reproduce TCU functions, OEM TCU will work in EV just fine, all we need to do is fool it by modifying input sensor data to move shift points to higher RPMs. 

There are 3 critical input sensors:
- TPS ( throttle position sensor ) which must be attached to EV throttle. I already done it in my EV, turned out nice and simple, see my built thread for pic.
- TS (turbine speed), essentially same as tachometer, but may need to adjust number of pulses per revolution ( I will look for this data next )
- VSS ( vehicle speed sensor ), I think this one should not be messed with, we want to real speed reported to TCU.

I think we can cut into TS signal wire, and insert simple controller that will read pulses from real TS sensor and produce different frequency pulses on the output. The difference in frequency will make TCU think that RPMs are lower than they actually are, so it will stay in current gear longer.

Let's poke holes in my idea


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

On another note, why is there a notion that motor controller needs to communicate to TCU? I don't see it. In fact, the more I dig into my ECU/TCU documentation, the more I discover that although its physically implemented in one box, they don't seem to share much more than a power bus. I think either historically or for safety reasons motor/engine control and transmission control are pretty much separate units.
In my Mazda, there are even 2 separate trouble lights, check engine and transmission ( not sure if its common in other cars ). Since I removed the engine, check engine light is obviously on, but transmission trouble light went off as soon as I plugged in TPS and all other transmission harnesses. Tranny seems to be happy without engine present, so there is not much dependency.

SGC, the graph in last post explains why your tranny shifts the way it is, without TPS signal. It follows the flat line at zero on vertical axis. TPS gives shift patterns its dynamics, so it must be present in auto EV conversion.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> SGC, the graph in last post explains why your tranny shifts the way it is, without TPS signal. It follows the flat line at zero on vertical axis. TPS gives shift patterns its dynamics, so it must be present in auto EV conversion.


Yep, I have a similar graph in my service guide. I hope to work on that this week, either make a new TPS or find a way to use the old one.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Here is TS data, according to my approximate calculations, this shows 32 pulses per revolution. 









With this data and the shift pattern table above its possible to calculate pulse frequency change for desired change in motor RPM shift points.

I should add that it may not even be neccessary to mess with TS pulses, maybe we can just adjust the resistance and range of movement of the TPS sensor to fool TCU into higher RPM shift pattern.

As soon as my EV is on the road I will be recording my RPMs and observe shift patterns. Its possible that I will just accept OEM patterns, even if they are slightly off from ideal electric motor RPM band.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

comments:

how about modifying the look up table in the pcm for a minimum tire size so the device thinks you are turning faster than you really are?

I think the check tranny light is just a temp sensor.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> comments:
> 
> how about modifying the look up table in the pcm for a minimum tire size so the device thinks you are turning faster than you really are?


I heard of this before, but couldn't find any detailed info on how to modify these tables, do you have any details?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> comments:
> 
> I think the check tranny light is just a temp sensor.


I'm not sure, it was flashing with every harness except TPS sensor plugged in, then went off as soon as I plugged in TPS, I think its smarter than just temp sensor.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> comments:
> 
> how about modifying the look up table in the pcm for a minimum tire size so the device thinks you are turning faster than you really are?
> 
> I think the check tranny light is just a temp sensor.


The tire size look up is modified using a factory type scan tool. There are many aftermarket scan tools that either have the data and coding or you buy chips and plug them into the tool.

These tool are not only used for pulling codes, you also use them for real time monotoring of Pcode (engine and transmission) parameters and modifying things like tire size.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Let's poke holes in my idea


Na, I won't poke hole in it but give you my thoughts about it.

Why those curves are dynamic like that is just because an ICE that constantly runs at high rpm's is a very inefficient ICE but at low rpm's it's pretty powerless, thus you have to shift differently depending on the throttle position. With an electric motor that need for adaption doesn't exist and you could shift entirely based on rpm or vehicle speed. I'm not sure if the gearbox would be that easily fooled but to me it looks like a fixed signal on throttle input would do the trick; just adjust it to a setting where the gear box shift gears without any risk for the motor to over rev and you should be fine.

Otherwise this information clearly confirms that handling the solenoids isn't exactly rocket science and the general IO-unit we're planning could easily do that (famous last words... ) based on motor rpm. Just sort out in what rpm-range the motor is the most efficient (and gets decent cooling) and keep the rpm there. Sounds simple, probably turns out to be a minor hell and I've probably forgot something... 

The only thing that confuses me with that table is that the third and reverse gears have the same solenoid pattern. I really hope there's some other means of selecting forward and reverse because I sure don't want the reverse to kick in on the highway...


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I don't think fixed TPS will work, since it will disable WOT kickdown function ( downshift by flooring it ) , which to me seems pretty important in vehicle operation, I know I use it quite often 

maybe adjusting TPS value and range such that WOT kickdown is still working , but keeping it in power mode vs. normal mode, will better suite electric motor characteristics?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I rarely use the kickdown feature in my ICE's and would think it even less useful in an EV.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Qer said:


> The only thing that confuses me with that table is that the third and reverse gears have the same solenoid pattern. I really hope there's some other means of selecting forward and reverse because I sure don't want the reverse to kick in on the highway...


Don't forget that the manual shifter movement will bias pressure via the spool.. It may be that reverse and third gears run off of the same internal accumulator port.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

*PowerGlide In a BMW conversion info*

I did a little research on a RWD vehicle: BMW 3 series 1992-1998 (E36 type). Curb weight (b4 convert) from 2600 (318ti) to 3400 (328). 

To refresh, I am thinking of 144 Volt with Warp 9.
I would like highway speeds with the best acceleration I can get, so maybe 5.00 rear? Or can I get away with 4.44 and not do aftermarket swap on the rear gear?
*Any suggestions from the experts?*

Spread sheet looks like this for the PowerGlide tranny:

Vehicle Rear Diff Ratio Low Ratio High Ratio Tire Diameter Motor RPM MPH Low MPH High BMW 318 Manual 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 1000 12 21 
 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 3000 36 64 
 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 3500 42 75 
 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 4000 48 86 
 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 4500 55 96 
 3.45 1.76 1 24.9 5000 61 107 BMW 318 Automatic 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 1000 9 16 
 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 3000 28 50 
 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 3500 33 58 
 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 4000 38 66 
 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 4500 42 75 
 4.44 1.76 1 24.9 5000 47 83 BMW 325 Manual 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 1000 13 23 
 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 3000 40 70 
 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 3500 46 82 
 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 4000 53 94 
 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 4500 60 106 
 3.15 1.76 1 24.9 5000 67 117 BMW 328 Manual 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 1000 14 25 
 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 3000 43 76 
 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 3500 50 88 
 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 4000 57 101 
 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 4500 64 114 
 2.93 1.76 1 24.9 5000 72 126 BMW 325/328 Auto 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 1000 10 19 
 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 3000 32 57 
 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 3500 37 66 
 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 4000 43 76 
 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 4500 48 85 
 3.91 1.76 1 24.9 5000 53 95 BMW 318 After Market 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 1000 8 15 
 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 3000 26 46 
 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 3500 31 54 
 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 4000 35 62 
 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 4500 40 70 
 4.75 1.76 1 24.9 5000 44 78 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 1000 8 14 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 3000 25 44 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 3500 29 52 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 4000 33 59 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 4500 38 66 
 5 1.76 1 24.9 5000 42 74 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 1000 7 12 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 3000 21 38 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 3500 25 44 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 4000 28 50 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 4500 32 57 
 5.85 1.76 1 24.9 5000 36 63


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Apologies for poor format. Cut and paste from Office spread sheet didn't work too well.

Numbers are: <diff ratio> <low tranny ratio> <high tranny ratio> <tire diam> <motor rpm> <low gear speed> <high gear speed>

Eric


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

I've gotten myself confused, I guess, trying to relate torque curves between ICE and EM and the correct timing of shifting gears. 

Generally, you stomp on the gas in an ICE and an AT will kick down to a lower gear thereby allowing a higher RPM where the ICE will provide more torque.

An EM is exactly the opposite, and shifting to a lower gear would give you higher RPM but LESS torque. Below is an example curve if you look at the line labeled "RPM".










So if your EV is cruising along in one gear with the motor turning 5000 RPM already, and you need passing power, where do you get it ? Not from a lower gear, because that would mean over-revving the motor. You need a higher gear so the motor can run at the lower RPM/higher torque, right ? Except that is going to lower the ratio through the trans and to the wheels, giving more motor torque but less torque at the wheels. 

It seems like the speed-based, and TPS-based shift pattern of an AT computer is going to do exactly the wrong thing when you stomp on the accelerator. It expects an engine to be turning at a lazy RPM of 800 - 1500 and for there to be plenty of room to downshift and access more torque up at higher RPM.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

What I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far is that the torque converter does more than simply allow slippage when the car is stopped and the engine is running. The TC also multiplies torque as long as there is a significant difference in speed between the impeller (attached to the engine shaft) and the turbine (attached to the transmission shaft).

The transmission shaft actually "sees" more torque than the engine is producing. Unfortunately, I have no idea how MUCH more torque the TC usually imparts. Granted we might have more torque from an electric motor at low RPM than the original engine was producing, but without the TC, will we have enough ? 

Big-Foot: Isn't there a valid reason to keep the TC for its multiplication of torque at low speed launch, even if we do have a short delay while pressure builds due to lack of motor idling ? Or even using an Accumulator to eliminate the delay ? 

Other than the weight savings and the smaller overall package size, I'm not clear on why we'd want to eliminate the TC. If we start with an AT that is usually mated to engines with peak torque of 300 lb-ft (at 5000RPM), and mate it to an electric motor with 100 lb-ft right from zero RPM, is it possible the AT input shaft will actually "see" more torque from the electric motor than it would have from the engine -- because of the the TC multiplying effect ? Will we break the AT internals by leaving the TC in place ?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Dreamer,

good points about kickdown, I guess it may be best to fix TPS in such position to always keep AT in power mode, so it keeps motor at higher RPMs and lower gears. 

I will find out soon enough, just as soon as my BMF 750 controller is ready 

I hope you are wrong about breaking AT internals with TC, because I kept mine as is


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Dreamer,
> 
> good points about kickdown, I guess it may be best to fix TPS in such position to always keep AT in power mode, so it keeps motor at higher RPMs and lower gears.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about it. My Auto Tranny had 243,000 miles when I converted it to an EV and it's fine. While the motor can provide ridiculous amounts of torque, I seriously doubt any controller (besides a Zilla) could even provide the current needed for those gear-stripping torques.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

I found this at answers.com:

"In a hydraulic torque converter, efficiency depends intimately on the angles at which the fluid enters and leaves the blades of the several parts. Because these angles change appreciably over the operating range, _k_ varies, being by definition zero when the output is stalled, although output torque at stall may be three times engine torque for a single-stage converter and five times engine torque for a three-stage converter. Depending on its input absorption characteristics, the hydraulic torque converter tends to pull down the engine speed toward the speed at which the engine develops maximum torque when the load pulls down the converter output speed toward stall."


So ... up to 5x motor torque ? With an engine, that is only multiplying a small portion of its peak torque because the TC is doing this when the engine is at low RPM and then this multiplication effect diminishes as the engine torque increases. But with an electric motor, the motor's peak torque is the torque that is being multiplied.

PS. I'm trying to find specs on various transaxles that are FWD for a longitudinal mount engine. (Transverse mountings always have unequal-length halfshafts, which means torque-steer, and reduced suspension travel.) One example would be the 42LE Chrysler transmissions used in the Intrepids. That transaxle is a compact package and relatively light weight -- but has a poor reliability reputation. Anybody have any other suggestions for longitudinal FWD, light weight, small package ATs ? I have this notion of trying to build something like the GM skateboard -- flat chassis with motor and low-profile tranny and batteries all mounted within the "board", keeping a very low CG. So weight and size of the tranny is important, and leaving out the TC would allow a smaller package.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Dreamer,

just because EM is capable of high torque at low RPM, doesn't mean we have to use it, right? Just accelerate gently and don't let too many amps into the motor, save energy and save that extra torque, am I missing something?

Can't wait to test all these theories


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Guys - all great work here!!! Let's keep it going!!



dreamer said:


> What I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far is that the torque converter does more than simply allow slippage when the car is stopped and the engine is running. The TC also multiplies torque as long as there is a significant difference in speed between the impeller (attached to the engine shaft) and the turbine (attached to the transmission shaft).
> 
> The transmission shaft actually "sees" more torque than the engine is producing. Unfortunately, I have no idea how MUCH more torque the TC usually imparts. Granted we might have more torque from an electric motor at low RPM than the original engine was producing, but without the TC, will we have enough ?
> 
> ...


Since the late 60's when we had the switch pitch torque converters, they really don't do "much" in terms of the multiplication of torque.. After reading some of the other posts I was reminded of how the stall speed of a converter is raised or lowered depending upon how much torque is being input to it initially. Now that's not to say that the given stall speed would change in any one particular installation - rather the stall speed of a given converter would change between motors/engines of different torque specs.
So - lets say that the stall speed is 1500 RPM for a 7" motor, it may well be 2000 RPM for an 8" and 2500 RPM for a 9" motor..

So - the real reason / rationale of the TC today is not to multiply the available torque, but to allow the ICE to move itself up into the RPM range that is starts making enough torque to move the load (GVW) of the vehicle. 
TC's (and gear ratios) are carefully matched to the designed use of the vehicle and the ICE that's propelling it.

So to the point of passing a vehicle when you need more power and your EM is already pulling at it's peak RPM of 5,000 - you would actually need a higher gear (lower numerically) to reduce the RPM of the EM into the range of it's higher torque value with greater margin to it's higher RPM. 
EG - shift from 3rd to 4th gear to reduce your RPM from 5,000 to 4,000..
While the available torque may not change, you have another 1,000 RPM to accelerate with.

Bottom line is this: Automatic transmissions with their torque converters are not designed nor optimized for use with electric motors that break all the rules of ICE engines in terms of RPM -vs- Torque.

This is the way I see it anyway.. 

Thought:
If TC's were multiplying torque with any degree of efficiency - I think we would see torque converters in literally all of the 70-100k behemouth trucks traveling the highways today. Instead we see them with very large standard transmissions almost all of the time.


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Typical DYNO sheet for an ICE engine.

Would be good to see a similar sheet for an EM to compare.

Purple line is Horsepower
Blue line is Torque (read in Ft Pounds)


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

dreamer said:


> I found this at answers.com:
> 
> PS. I'm trying to find specs on various transaxles that are FWD for a longitudinal mount engine. (Transverse mountings always have unequal-length halfshafts, which means torque-steer, and reduced suspension travel.) One example would be the 42LE Chrysler transmissions used in the Intrepids. That transaxle is a compact package and relatively light weight -- but has a poor reliability reputation. Anybody have any other suggestions for longitudinal FWD, light weight, small package ATs ? I have this notion of trying to build something like the GM skateboard -- flat chassis with motor and low-profile tranny and batteries all mounted within the "board", keeping a very low CG. So weight and size of the tranny is important, and leaving out the TC would allow a smaller package.



I understand that torque multiplication is only 1.1 X, but can't recollect source. senoir moments suck.

for tranny: have you considered Audii's from say the late 70's or early 80's? Basically a bug tranny but mounted backwards (engine in front) with equal length shafts and steering couplers. Probably 6 to 8 bolts holding everything in. both flavors, but don't go for the two speeds since they are kinda weak. guessing bug people can rebuild em, maybe not.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Big-Foot said:


> Would be good to see a similar sheet for an EM to compare.


Here's a torque chart for a smaller AC motor:


----------



## Big-Foot (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks JR - Boy that torque curve starts dropping pretty quickly starting at 1800 RPM...

So it is as I suspected..

Pretty much the inverse of the ICE engine's torque curve...


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

That AC motor torque curve is much easier to read than the one I posted for a NetGain Warp motor. It shows exactly why I think the programmed shift behavior of an automatic transmission is completely wrong when mated to an electric motor.

As in Big-Foot's starting post for this thread, it seems like allowing completely automatic shifting is going to be pretty tricky. "Manually" selecting "D1","D2","D3" should be simple as long as you have a Tachometer on the dash. Otherwise, we'll have to defeat most of the sensor-driven shifting the AT wants to do.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Piotrsko: "have you considered Audii's from say the late 70's or early 80's? Basically a bug tranny but mounted backwards (engine in front) with equal length shafts and steering couplers."

I was hoping to stay more recent than 70'/80's, but I remember looking at the Audi 5000 which is used in many mid-engine kitcar builds as a cheaper alternative to the Porsche G50. What auto tranny numbers would you suggest I research for light weight and small profile ? A guy just started a thread on his conversion of an Audi TT Quatro and it sounds like that tranny needs a lot of computer control and wheelslip sensor feedback, etc. And that is for a manual 6-speed. 

Of course, there are also the Subaru FWD versions -- mounting to those boxer engines requires longitudinal mounting, I think. I have no idea what they weigh, though.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

If looking for a RWD trans I have an idea, but it would require some fabrication and experimentation. 

A General Motors TH350 3 speed auto trans uses a vacuum modulator to control the shift, which makes the decision to shift based on engine vacuum. When this modulator is defective, the transmission will not shift until it reaches the max speed to shift regardless of throttle input, indicating that the more vacuum the modulator sees, the lower the shift point. 

One of these transmissions might work, but you'd have to have a way to simulate engine vacuum. A way to do this would be with a vacuum pump, a solenoid to bleed vacuum, and a throttle position sensor to control the opening of the solenoid. With no vacuum (WOT on an ICE) the vacuum modulator on the trans sees no vacuum, thus holds the shift to the max shift speed that the trans is set up for. This is a mechanical shift point set inside the trans, but that's as far as I can go on that as I've never actually been inside one. Under partial load, the trans will shift at a lower RPM, as the modulator will see partial vacuum. The more vacuum the modulator sees, the lower the shift point. There is a set screw inside the modulator that can adjust how much vacuum is needed to induce a shift in relation to input shaft speed. There is also a kickdown cable attached that will force a downshift when floored in 3rd gear to pull it down to a lower gear.

So, you should be able to use a vacuum pump to make the vacuum, a solenoid to induce a variable amount of vacuum bleed, and a TPS to control how much bleed is needed. You might also need some feedback from the trans on what gear it's in to adjust the bleed, because you'd not want to have the upshift and downshift at the exact same level of vacuum because that would cause gear hunting. I think this might be addressed mechanically inside the trans as well though. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

can't say as to what model being that I was wandering around in a junk yard at the time looking for VW CV joints. Did notice the case was almost exactly the same as the 3 spd auto bug tranny. No hook-ups for anything computer. I am guessing about 150 to 200 lbs installed since I can pick one up singlehanded. That is the limits of my knowledge here. definitely cheap however, $50 a copy at the time.

OH yeah: they don't require a TC to run tranny. the TC is only for clutch simulation.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Somebody earlier mentioned that the actual control signals to solenoid packs on modern ATs are pretty simple, and Qer mentioned that he might be able to add this programmable shifting functionality into the browser control interface he is building for Tesseract's new controller. Even simpler than fooling with vacuum source controls.

The motor controller really might be the perfect place for it. Qer doesn't need to reinvent a TCU because an AT's shifting behavior including kickdown is much more complex than what is needed for an electric motor. An AT mated to an electric motor simply needs to know what the vehicle speed is and what the gear ratios available are in order to pick the right gear -- kickdown is not desirable due to the torque falloff at higher motor speeds, so it is just a matter of picking the gear that lets the motor run most efficiently at that vehicle speed.

In fact, if the interface for controlling solenoid packs can be made generic enough, this could be a real selling point for Tesseract's controller -- it would be the ONLY controller that really works well to create a good mating between AT and electric motors. 

In my personal quest for the smallest package size of AT units, does anybody know offhand which transmissions have separate bell housings -- so if a TC is not used, the profile of that tranny can be very short ? By "short" I mean vertical height.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

150 to 200 lbs would actually be quite heavy. A VW beetle manual trans only weighs 65 lbs. A Honda Civic auto tranny weighs about 135 lbs. A PowerGlide auto tranny can weigh as little as 45 lbs -- of course, that isn't a transaxle so the rear-end weight must be figured too. 

Big-Foot mentioned one advantage of auto tranny's was being lighter than manual tranny's in many cases. Is it possible I'll find FWD transaxles under 100 lbs w/o torque converter ?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

both questions: solenoids can be triggered by the presence of 12 v at about a couple of amps. sequencing can be sometimes the problem, BUT any kind of simple circuit would be able to control most auto's. Pressure sensor or two, couple of 555 timers, a pi circuit for frequency control and some sort of current switching.{very simplified, but used to illustrate}

Sorry, like I said, I was in a junk yard. this was the whole front end less engine and tires sitting there. I picked it up. My personal max at the time for dead lifting was about 275 lbs. this was just somewhere left handed to look.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

dreamer said:


> Somebody earlier mentioned that the actual control signals to solenoid packs on modern ATs are pretty simple...





dreamer said:


> The motor controller really might be the perfect place for it. Qer doesn't need to reinvent a TCU because an AT's shifting behavior including kickdown is much more complex than what is needed for an electric motor. An AT mated to an electric motor simply needs to know what the vehicle speed is and what the gear ratios available are in order to pick the right gear -- kickdown is not desirable due to the torque falloff at higher motor speeds, so it is just a matter of picking the gear that lets the motor run most efficiently at that vehicle speed.


I'm primarily a GM RWD guy, from the performance side of it, so I can't comment on other brands or FWD, but... 

EFI Live makes a program (750 bucks) that will speak to a lot of GM FWD, RWD and 4WD vehicles. This program also manages the auto transmission completely, allowing you to program it in more detail than even a Tech 2. That program shows that the transmissions are controlled by engine RPM and by speed, so you'd need a TPS signal, a VSS signal and an engine RPM signal to control it. But, it might be possible to control it just by speed which would eliminate the need for an RPM input. I have a copy of this program at home, I'll try to remember to bring it up at home and see what all can be done with it.

One bad thing, EFI Live requires a separate license for each PCM it controls, or you can buy a blanket license for a particular make. In this case, once a program were designed to work properly, someone could buy a group license (think they are 2 grand or so) then program them for anyone running a GM transmission. The group license would be for a family of vehicle, here is a list of the vehicles supported. 

A second problem, is that GM as of late has been putting all their computer controlled gear onto a CAN bus. So, you'd either have to build a CAN network in your car or figure out specifically what vehicles are both manageable by EFI live and don't use a CAN bus. 



dreamer said:


> In my personal quest for the smallest package size of AT units, does anybody know offhand which transmissions have separate bell housings -- so if a TC is not used, the profile of that tranny can be very short ? By "short" I mean vertical height.


GM RWD autos have 2 piece bell housings after I think 1997, and I'm pretty sure that Ford RWD autos do as well since Ford engines have different designs on their engines. A GM trans stands about a foot, maybe 14 inches tall at the closest point to the bell. Beyond that, I don't know. On the FWD transmissions, since they are pretty small to begin with, and there are only so many ways a FWD transmission can fit, it shouldn't be too hard to modify any vehicle to accept a GM transmission from one of the supported vehicles.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

dreamer said:


> In my personal quest for the smallest package size of AT units, does anybody know offhand which transmissions have separate bell housings -- so if a TC is not used, the profile of that tranny can be very short ? By "short" I mean vertical height.


Well, the Supra's autobox has a separate bellhousing, but the Supra is a RWD car, so I'm not sure this would be any use to you.

However, I'm putting an auto into my Supra project. The shifting is done by solenoid valves, controlled by an ECU. I've got hold of an aftermarket programmable transmission computer from Latent Solutions, the "SupraStick". With this, I can vary the shifting tables to better suit my Warp11 motor. The torque converter can be locked solid with a 3rd solenoid, so I'll also be able to eliminate the slip.

My initial thoughts when planning all this (before I found the SupraStick) revolved around "reversing" the throttle position sensor that feeds throttle angle info to the tranny computer, so it would lower shift rpms for wide throttle openings, but keep the mechanical cable linkage the same (this operates a line pressure control inside the tranny) so the tranny would boost the line pressure for wide throttle settings(big torques)

Should be good fun, though I might just use the SupraStick's manual shifting mode, with the redundant cruise control buttons on the steering wheel doing the up/down shifting

Richard (electricmini)
Supra Conversion Project


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Wasn't able to check EFI Live yesterday, will try again tonight.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

OK, brought the program into work with me this time. On the transmission, EFI Live can tune:

General
* Parameters - Set the gear ratios in the trans, and when the WOT shift tables come into play
* Shift Stabilization Ratios - Predictive values for torque management

Shift at VSS
* Upshift tables
XX Part throttle tables - Controls what speed a part throttle upshift occurs, speed xs TPS
XX Manual hold gear - Controls what speed the transmission will upshift at even if held in one gear
* Downshift tables
XX Part throttle tables - Controls what speed a part throttle downshift occurs, speed xs TPS
XX Manual downshift - Controls the maximum vehicle speed the transmission will allow a downshift for even if the lever is manually moved to a lower gear

Shift at RPM
* Upshift
XX Parameters - Controls the maximum engine RPM the engine can go before an upshift is made under WOT

Throttle Kickdown
* Throttle kickdown - Controls when the transmission will "kick into passing gear" determined by TPS vs engaged gear

Desired Shift Times
* Shift times Determines how fast a shift will be executed depending on engine torque delivered

TCC
* Parameters - Allows you to control whether the torque converter locks on an upshift
* Apply - Determines at what speed the torque converter will lock up, by gear
* Release - Determines at what speed the torque converter will unlock, by speed or TPS
* Pressure - Allows you to determine TCC pressure apply and slip rate (newer GM torque converters have predetermined slip, which makes a smoother transition from locked to unlocked; TCC lockup no longer feels like an extra gear)

Trans Pressures - Allows you to adjust transmission line pressure by various parameters

Torque Reduction - Implemented by GM to allow a weak transmission to live behind a powerful engine by retarding engine power right before a shift, adjusted as a percentage of torque delivered. Also has an abuse parameter set.

CARS/CAGS - Not sure what this one is.

The program can also adjust things like rear end ratios, tire sizes, ect, according to what your EV may have on it that the PCM needs to know about. 

There's also a diagnostic section where you can turn DTC fault enablers on and off, so the PCM won't recognise faults that you don't want to see. This would allow you to turn the engine sensors all off, so that when using the PCM with an EV you can use the Check Engine Light to determine faults in the stuff you are using, without seeing the light on because something you aren't using is no longer there.

Another neat thing about the PCM, it can be set to turn a fan on and off according to temp, so using one of these PCMs to control your transmission gives you the ability to set a backup fan to keep the EM from overheating, without running a power robbing fan when the motor ISN'T overheating.

There's also a function on there that allows you to control how the tach works, so if you used a GM crankshaft sensor setup (24X reluctor) on the EM (wouldn't be hard to stick on the end of the EM shaft) you'd be able to use it to run a tach.

Hope this helps out with using an electric trans like a GM 4L60E in an EV.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

In my honest opinion, just like an automatic DOES NOT get better mileage than a stick... so in electrical vehicles I find the same principle to apply. An automatic may work for whoever, but the question is simply when you are trying for maximum efficiency it is wiser to go standard transmission. An NO it isn't because some of us have enough trying to get our head around the building of an EV... I gutted my front-end and converted my Toyota (clutch, tranny, drive axles and shock towers,.. and put in a standard. (of course I ditched anything and everything related to the conveyance of gasoline, exhaust or what ever was ICE as I was at it...)
I didn't find any 'slack' in the standard transmission it is just go or don't... hit the foot-feeter on your slushbox I bet you will notice a 'whir' of the engine prior to engagement of the gear... 
Now this is all just my opinion and experience.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> In my honest opinion, just like an automatic DOES NOT get better mileage than a stick... so in electrical vehicles I find the same principle to apply. An automatic may work for whoever, but the question is simply when you are trying for maximum efficiency it is wiser to go standard transmission. An NO it isn't because some of us have enough trying to get our head around the building of an EV... I gutted my front-end and converted my Toyota (clutch, tranny, drive axles and shock towers,.. and put in a standard. (of course I ditched anything and everything related to the conveyance of gasoline, exhaust or what ever was ICE as I was at it...)
> I didn't find any 'slack' in the standard transmission it is just go or don't... hit the foot-feeter on your slushbox I bet you will notice a 'whir' of the engine prior to engagement of the gear...
> Now this is all just my opinion and experience.


to all,

I repeat my earlier to the nay sayers;
People who choose an automatic transmission generally do it knowing that there WILL BE a performance price for the convieience of an automatic. 

It's no different with EV's or an ICE. If you want the automatic, you go into it knowing you will pay a price.

For those hobbiest who want to squeeze out the last erg of power for that last inch of distance, a manual or direct drive may be best (the jury is still out). 

The problem is that some of these techno wonders that have been built require a bit of time (got to rent a flight simulator) to learn how to drive and verge on the edge of unsafe. E.g. skinny, hard tires at the limit of GVW, with the weight bias all bas akwards. This is fine for those who want it and are willing to live with it, but the average Joe just wants to get in, turn the switch and go.

For those who, within current battery and motor technology, can bulid/buy a vehicle that will go their needed distance and who want a silent, convieient, just get in and drive EV, an automatic may be the better way.

There is room for both. and who knows, the people working with automatics MAY just find that magic bullet that helps us all.

One REALLY BIG reason for this thread is that the vast majority of vehicles built over the last few years are automatics. If the hobby conversion people and the performance people want a modern, good handleing, safe, comfortable vehicle they may just HAVE to go Auto.

For those of us looking for the last bit of performance, being ECO friendly is nice, but remember the first electrics were mostly luxury vehicles. People just built/bought the vehicle and battery that did the job they needed done. We all should do the same, build what fits your need, trading usefull information from both sides of the coin.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Actually, there are a couple of autos on the market that are rated for damn near the same mileage as the stick version of the same car. The difference is 1-2MPG at most. Personally I'd rather have a stickshift but the 'ol lady can't drive them and refuses to learn, so I have to work around that.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Telco said:


> Actually, there are a couple of autos on the market that are rated for damn near the same mileage as the stick version of the same car. The difference is 1-2MPG at most. Personally I'd rather have a stickshift but the 'ol lady can't drive them and refuses to learn, so I have to work around that.


Telco
You sound like the guy they developed the dual shaft, sequential autosticks for. I'm not talking about an auto stick mod to an automatic. 

This is a real automated sequential manual gearbox. Put it in drive and the computer shifts for her. You get in hit sport and it's instant formula 1 paddle shifted sequential fun.

You owe youself a drive in one of these things.

By the way you can find them at your local VW store for one place. I think VW calls it DSG for dual shaft sequential gearbox.

It has two shafts with alternate gears e.g. 1st, 3rd and 5th on one and 2nd, 4th and 6th on the other. Each shaft has a motorcycle type hydraulically operated multi disc basket clutch, they alternate back and forth. They are a real trip.


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> to all,
> It's no different with EV's or an ICE. If you want the automatic, you go into it knowing you will pay a price.
> For those hobbiest who want to squeeze out the last erg of power for that last inch of distance, a manual or direct drive may be best (the jury is still out).
> Just my thoughts.


I am some 240 miles north of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And I am not a 'hobbyist'. I don't know if perhaps you think the preference for a stick shift is 'for play'... Well for this man, it isn't.
Anywhere major I have to drive to is a minimum 25 miles (50 miles round-trip), in a variety of weather conditions and not to mention that I have a 3/8 mile private drive (class 5 gravel) and 1/2 mile from my gate to the blacktop County road... and I am NOT a 'hobbyist'... this isn't some plaything... it is a $12,000 start to an investment that will be ongoing (as long as I am sane and able to do the work) for the rest of my life. Not for fun but to tell people who think we can just 'use, use, use!' and not pay a price... that I am not playing THAT game anymore. This for me is a lifestyle, not a hobby. I am working on getting the most mileage possible. To make it round-trip 65 miles will make me one happy person, my wife too! And if I can get my mitts on the necessary Lithium Iron Phosphate I will start manufacturing battery packs... 
When you dig into your retirement fund in a time of tight economy, trust me at 57, it is NOT a hobby. -


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I am some 240 miles north of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And I am not a 'hobbyist'. I don't know if perhaps you think the preference for a stick shift is 'for play'... Well for this man, it isn't.
> Anywhere major I have to drive to is a minimum 25 miles (50 miles round-trip), in a variety of weather conditions and not to mention that I have a 3/8 mile private drive (class 5 gravel) and 1/2 mile from my gate to the blacktop County road... and I am NOT a 'hobbyist'... this isn't some plaything... it is a $12,000 start to an investment that will be ongoing (as long as I am sane and able to do the work) for the rest of my life. Not for fun but to tell people who think we can just 'use, use, use!' and not pay a price... that I am not playing THAT game anymore. This for me is a lifestyle, not a hobby. I am working on getting the most mileage possible. To make it round-trip 65 miles will make me one happy person, my wife too! And if I can get my mitts on the necessary Lithium Iron Phosphate I will start manufacturing battery packs...
> When you dig into your retirement fund in a time of tight economy, trust me at 57, it is NOT a hobby. -


fugdabug,

THis should probably be a PM, but some of this needs to be said in public so here goes.

You seem to have taken what I wrote as a personal attack. It was not. It was a statement that the flat out nay sayers should back off and give people trying to work with automatics a chance. That is why this thread is titled the way it is.

Every one needs to remember that your way is not the only (and maybe not even the best) way.

I have nothing but respect for a person who is seriously trying to better technology by personal efforts as well as showing that a person CAN be responsibe and caring about how they live in this world and what they want to leave behind. After all I'm in that group and I do respect myself.

Call them hobbiest or visonaries or just plain people who have a goal, the ideal behind the effort is what made this country what it was. Hobbiests build scratch built airplanes to make sure they understand aerodynamics, Hobbiests build rockets just to find out how and why. Someone name Steve Jobs had a electronics hobby he played with in his garage.

I can understand those that seriously take things to extreems to acheive a goal. But people who put in extra pedals and levers and switches to perform weird functions not normally used, or do normal functions using weird mrthods. These only mystify EV's for those who we are trying to convince that EV's are viable means of transportation. We in the end have to make something that Joe average and his wife and kids can and will want to use.

Also, as usual some people go waaaaay too far and create dangerous contraptions. Thats what I was refering to. Like the idea to use temp spares as road tires because they were skinny and hard. Or the people who mounted their batteries behind the axle because it was easy and eventually lost control because of the wrong weight bias for the vehicle design and the tires they were using.

From the personal statistics you list I can appriciate the difficulties you need to overcome to acheive your EV goals. They will require very stringent control of all aspects of EV technology as it exists now. Any improvements you make can only help us all.

My own focus is to show that home and farm maintenance vehicles can use renewable power and that in many cases do the job better. I chose garden tractors.

My statistics should help you understand why I choose to make my effort my way. I live on a farm 8 miles from the nearest town, my drive way is 1000 feet of some stone and some mud, the last 200 feet climbs a 30 foot high ridge to get to the county road. 

I mow about 5 acres of grass bi-weekly and 3 acres weekly. I'm tired of engine noise and stink and oil changes and tune ups and belt replacement. I'm 65 years and in poor health. Converting a full sized vehicle is beyond me now. Converting a garden tractor isn't.

Maybe I can leave a green garden tractor behind me and convince others that it's the way to go in the future. If you want I'll PM you with my vision for a renewable resource combination solar/wind power UPS and yard and garden maintenaince storage shed and tractor recharge station.

My interest in automatic transmissions comes from:
1.) being very familiar with how they work
2.) knowing from 45 years as a professional vehicle repair technician, most people don't have a clue about what goes on inside of one.
3.) knowing that once you remove the torque converter, other then the very slight power lost in the fluid pump, an sutomatic just may be as, if not more, efficient then a manual transmission
4.) knowing that using precise programed automatic shift points can be a lot more efficient then the random efforts of the average driver (in advance I will stipulate you may not be average tha avrage driver).

Having experience with building many different vehicles (some from scratch) I think that there just might be a use for automatics when used with a properly sized electric motor.

But that like all of the above is just my opinion.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Telco
> You sound like the guy they developed the dual shaft, sequential autosticks for. I'm not talking about an auto stick mod to an automatic.


Nah, it ain't a stickshift unless it's got a clutch and you can grind gears when you miss the shift. I'm just putting up with the autos until we get the next place up, then I'm building me a real stick. Heh heh... She just won't get to drive THAT one unless she wants to learn...


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

I love this thread and will review all posts tonight after work. I too have noticed the soundness of the concept. As a controls and integration type I want an pump, AC motor, and VFD that is independent of the traction motor. A pressure sensor on the transmission fed through a A to D converter allows me to integrate pressure control into a feed back loop to the pump motor VFD. The pressure regulators in the transmission would then be redundant and in some cases could be rendered inert. Logical linkage to the u-P controlling the main AC drive allow pumping losses to be minimized big-time.
The torque converter is an uneeded weight and can be easily deleted. Back in the day drag race transmissions used a manual clutch with a simple drive clip that drove the front pump with dogs that hooked over the clutch pressure plate levers. (ClutchFlight)
The TH-200 in my donor vehicle has a steep low gear allowing me to use a smaller, lighter invertor duty rated main traction motor with a free running speed of about 3,500 RPM when driven with 60 Hz. These AC motors are most efficient when driven at or near 60 Hz. The automatic allows this efficiency to be realized. Many of these motors are available in a C-face mounting configuration making the fabrication of a bell-housing mounting adaptor easy for the average machinist. By cutting a port in the bell housing one can drive the pump with a timing belt to the pump drive motor with very low losses.
Some of you have read my other posts advocating the use of a Parallax Propeller chip to control an EV. The cog laydown for this application would be as follows: Cog 0-supervisory (driver inputs and road speed), cogs 1 through 6- main traction motor IGBT control, cog 7-transmission pump motor speed/pressure control. There you have it!


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> fugdabug,
> You seem to have taken what I wrote as a personal attack. It was not. It was a statement that the flat out nay sayers should back off and give people trying to work with automatics a chance. That is why this thread is titled the way it is.


Well, if you go back you will find that to make a point, you almost always step on the toes of those that have other ideas, or that have tried and are not satisfied with the performance of slushboxes,.. the constant back and forth is what a forum is for.
NOT that they don't work, oh yeah they work... at about a 1/3 of the efficiency overall... try going up and down fairly steep hills... for the dampening effect you get with an automatic when speaking of practical, 'squeeze the tech for its last doable inch', when your life could count on it - with maximum efficiency. I will take a stick every time.
Think about this: Here last night we had thunderstorms. We still have a good snow-melt going... my 'trunk' to the main driveway will guarantee you a gauntlet of mud that has see a car 'into it to the axles'. Now I would NOT want an automatic in that situation, or an icy road. I would like to see you maneuver an automatic on black ice at 55 mph... and have to stop in a short distance and maintain drive control.
I think there are perfectly good reasons a person would want an automatic, but out here... well let's just say, an automatic would leave you in a lurch.
good thread.
P.S. this is a forum...there is room for all ideas, no offense taken. I don't even know you personally... just plugging in thoughts.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Think about this: Here last night we had thunderstorms. We still have a good snow-melt going... my 'trunk' to the main driveway will guarantee you a gauntlet of mud that has see a car 'into it to the axles'. Now I would NOT want an automatic in that situation, or an icy road. I would like to see you maneuver an automatic on black ice at 55 mph... and have to stop in a short distance and maintain drive control.
> I think there are perfectly good reasons a person would want an automatic, but out here... well let's just say, an automatic would leave you in a lurch.
> good thread.


I don't quite follow the logic. I've driven in snow and ice my whole life, and done a lot of off roading in deep mud and snow, mostly with automatics, without major problems. When I did get stuck it had nothing to do with the transmission.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

fugdabug,
with all due respect to a fellow EV enthusiast I don't follow the logic of coming into the thread dedicated on how to do an auto conversion with obvious predisposition against it. If you don't like it and don't want it, fine, post in the thread below where people discuss why NOT to do an auto conversion. How does anything you said in this thread help people who want to do an auto conversion? Do you honestly think we are stupid enough to have made this decision without weighing all our options?

Yes, forum is all about back and forth communications like you said, but there is certain behavior code where you don't come in like a bear in a china shop into someone else's conversations. Pretty much the only thing you contributed in this thread is that auto is less efficient than manual, duh, we already knew that, its been said by thread starter right from the beginning. Its not about efficiency of auto vs stick at all... its about using auto transaxle as efficient as possible WHILE achieving other primary goals.

Sorry, I really tried to stay away from making this comment, but just couldn't keep my mouth shut anymore


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

dimitri said:


> fugdabug,
> with all due respect to a fellow EV enthusiast I don't follow the logic of coming into the thread dedicated on how to do an auto conversion with obvious predisposition against it. If you don't like it and don't want it, fine, post in the thread below where people discuss why NOT to do an auto conversion. How does anything you said in this thread help people who want to do an auto conversion? Do you honestly think we are stupid enough to have made this decision without weighing all our options?
> 
> Yes, forum is all about back and forth communications like you said, but there is certain behavior code where you don't come in like a bear in a china shop into someone else's conversations. Pretty much the only thing you contributed in this thread is that auto is less efficient than manual, duh, we already knew that, its been said by thread starter right from the beginning. Its not about efficiency of auto vs stick at all... its about using auto transaxle as efficient as possible WHILE achieving other primary goals.
> ...


Check the garage Dimitri, check the garage...


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I don't quite follow the logic. I've driven in snow and ice my whole life, and done a lot of off roading in deep mud and snow, mostly with automatics, without major problems. When I did get stuck it had nothing to do with the transmission.


You speak of YEARS of working with automatics... I don't begrudge you that. But did you do all those years of driving... in an EV... on ice etc.? That is what I was asking... somebody break out a fire extinguisher already... sheesh.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Check the garage Dimitri, check the garage...


I don't know what to check for? Are you implying that most EVs there have stick tranny? By same logic I should not be using Lithium batteries, since most people do not 

My auto EV is in the garage too, although not ready for the road yet. Once its driven, I will post efficiency numbers based on my experience, and although they won't be "perfect" by your standard, they will definitely be better than 1/3 efficiency as you claimed above, even with Torque Converter  that I kept and idling the motor 

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that?


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I don't know what to check for? Are you implying that most EVs there have stick tranny? By same logic I should not be using Lithium batteries, since most people do not
> 
> My auto EV is in the garage too, although not ready for the road yet. Once its driven, I will post efficiency numbers based on my experience, and although they won't be "perfect" by your standard, they will definitely be better than 1/3 efficiency as you claimed above, even with Torque Converter  that I kept and idling the motor
> 
> Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that?


Uh, you said 'I should convert one...' ... I already have, and am working on a third version. We are listed by user name in the 'garage'.
P.S. Why do you keep the motor running?.. See this is what I am asking. I doesn't make sense to run the motor when you are at a stop... you're just burning juice...  Anyway... have fun.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Uh, you said 'I should convert one...' ... I already have, and am working on a third version. We are listed by user name in the 'garage'.
> P.S. Why do you keep the motor running?.. See this is what I am asking. I doesn't make sense to run the motor when you are at a stop... you're just burning juice...  Anyway... have fun.


 Actually I never said that you should convert one, because I know that you did and I read most of your posts on this forum, including your conversion threads. I have a lot of respect for all the things that you try in your EV quest, although I often disagree with many of your ideas I don't post in your threads telling you not to do things that you want to do. We are all adults and many things that don't make sense to some of us, make sense to others, and we should respect that. 
I listed the reasons to idle the motor in my build thread, mostly its because I want to retain OEM power stering pump, OEM air conditioning compressor and OEM response from transmission ( i.e. no delays to build up pressure. I want to do all these things without adding cost and complexity of extra electric motors to run these pumps. I know its a waste of "some" degree, but its a trade off I made consciously, after much deliberation. I already wired "cancel idle" button, which I will use to stop the idle on long traffic stops to save energy.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> You speak of YEARS of working with automatics... I don't begrudge you that. But did you do all those years of driving... in an EV... on ice etc.? That is what I was asking... somebody break out a fire extinguisher already... sheesh.


You talked about certain driving conditions where you felt a manual would be much better than an auto, I was just trying to understand how since it did not make sense from my experience. I still don't see how driving on ice, snow, or mud an auto trans is going to be more problematic than a manual, no matter what the engine, ICE or electric.  I agree you'll get a little less efficiency with the auto, but other than that?


----------



## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi, I'm new here (used to be over at the yahoo diy EV group) and I've read only the first 50 posts in this thread so excuse me if I repeat a question. The only ATs I'm familiar with is the old iron Powerglide in my '55 BelAir, the newer alu Powerglide, the TH350 and the TH400.

The latter three requires a vacuum signal from the intake manifold, without it the trans never upshifts. Can any AT be used or just some types that don't require a vacuum signal?


----------



## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

dreamer said:


> (Transverse mountings always have unequal-length halfshafts, which means torque-steer, and reduced suspension travel.)


Not always. The whole range of Austin/Morris front wheel drive cars that was made from 1959 on and Th!nk City EV made from 1999 to 2002 had the differential centered in the car and equal length half shafts. Probably others, too.

Torque steer is not noticeable in a low powered car driven conservatively.

Reduced suspension travel? Not a problem, but limited turning radius could be for a long wheel base car.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Really I don't see the real need for a torque converter either. The main purpose for a torque converter is to allow an ICE to run when the vehicle isn't moving. It's not a requirement for an electric motor which can spin freely with no power applied and does not have to run when the vehicle is stopped. In other words, the torque converter is required for the ICE, not the transmission. The only reason the torque converter drives the tranny pump is packaging, since the ICE requires it anyway they made the TC run the pump. You can actually modify an auto to use a direct drive from the engine to the tranny pump by reworking the fluid passages a bit, in fact I'm pretty sure that torque converter adapters like this are already made even though I don't have a source. It would be better to build an auto EV with electric accessories rather than to use the EM to drive the factory ICE accessories anyway, or at least run the ICE accessories off a separate drive motor. 

El Rayo, a transmission that uses vacuum modulation would just need a way to duplicate the vacuum in order to operate properly. It shouldn't be too hard to use a vacuum pump to provide the vacuum, then use a throttle position sensor to control a vacuum bleed solenoid. On a vacuum modulated transmission, the more vacuum is applied the lower the shift point. The vacuumm modulator (at least on a TH350) is controlled via a set screw inside the vacuum line port so the shift point vs vacuum inputcan be adjusted, and a linear bleed solenoid would allow you to control the shift point with the vehicle throttle. It would take some calibration to make it work correctly, but it's very doable.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Telco said:


> It would be better to build an auto EV with electric accessories rather than to use the EM to drive the factory ICE accessories anyway, or at least run the ICE accessories off a separate drive motor.


Absolutely agree with your statement, it would be better not to have TC and run accessories off a separate motor. The question is how much better? How can we quantify the cost and efficiency difference between these two approaches and then look at the bottom line and say, this was really worth the trouble, or not ? 

I am really playing devil's advocate here, don't get me wrong. This is my second EV, in my first EV I used electric PS pump and gave up the AC because it was a convertible roadster. I know how much energy the PS pump takes and have pretty good idea how much energy AC takes, and losses associated with belts and pulleys, etc. If you really lay down a good plan on how to drive these accessories with separate motor, then consider the cost, complexity and additional weight of everything you have to add to make it work, also don't forget that room is very limited and 1-2 Hp electric motor is not that small. Then you look at all of this from the distance and you start thinking, maybe, just maybe, I should have just used the main motor? 

As for TC, the only reason I kept it other than my decision to idle the motor, is that I am not the machinist and not transmission expert, and don't have any friends who are. I don't have means to adapt EM to tranny without significant investment, and I am not comfortable with major deviation from OEM fluid path and volume, since I don't know possible long term consequenses of such mod. I'm sure in racing world all these things are possible and easy, but they probably don't use same transmission for 10 years without major overhauls, but I am building a commuter car and intend not to fix it anytime soon.

Sorry for long winded post, all these things somehow make sense to me, but I will be the first one to come back here and admit what an idiot I am when my EV fails miserably to meet my expectations  . Also, I am not trying to convince anyone to follow my path, in fact I would love to see all these other ideas implemented in other EVs so we can compare our results.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Well, I suggested using an electric motor to drive ICE accessories because it's been done. A better way, although more costly would be electric accessories to begin with. I wouldn't think there would be that much of a difference on cost, but there would be a huge difference in battery costs when the power needed to run accessories part time is compared to the power needed to run inefficient ICE accessories off the main drive motor.

On the torque converter: The shell of the converter connects to the engine and the transmission pump. The input shaft of the transmission connects to the internal vane inside the converter, only. There's no physical connection between these parts. When the engine spins the shell, the fluid inside will spin with it, which pushes on the vanes inside the TC, which spins the input shaft of the transmission. To convert the torque converter over, you would have to split the shell, then cut the input shaft connection off the vane assembly. This would need to be welded to the shell of the converter so that the shell of the converter spins the input shaft of the converter. Next, since you no longer need all that fluid for the engine to spin the input shaft, the body of the torque converter is no longer needed. So, you can build an adapter to connect the EM to the modified input shaft. The unit will also need to be sealed so that fluid will not leak between the modified torque converter and the transmission. So long as fluid can circulate between the modified TC and the input shaft, the transmission will have no idea that there is not a torque converter present anymore, so the transmission will need no modification. The only negative, is that the EM will need to spin a bit before the car takes off, so there will be some lag between throttle and movement. This is because the transmission will still need the fluid to be pressurized before the tranny guts start working. But, as the torque converter is the major source of heat in the transmission, removing it means everything will work cooler. You might not even need a fluid cooler anymore. Once the piece is finished, it would be an excellent idea to balance the unit. You also have to pay attention to centering the input shaft to the shell. 

NP with the devil's advocacy, it's a lot better to poke holes in a theory with words than to wait till you've invested time and money to find out something that doesn't work. It's a lot easier to fix a problem with a pencil than a welder.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Howdy All,

Thought I would step back in for a while with some positive and negitive comments.

I myself would run without a torque converter and use an auxilarry pump that runs only at dead stops to maintain pressure. Early on there was talk of using an accumulator to do this but there is one thing that was never covered. Where does the fluid from the accumulator go that is used to maintain pressure until the pump starts running again. A three quart accumulator could put enough extra fluid in the pan to flood the body and cause foaming when the trans shafts starts turning and splashing around. Foam is a NO-NO in an auto (ask me how I know).

There was also mention that the transmission might hold pressure by itself. I don't know about the very newest transmissions, but older transmission clutches had bleed off check valves in the clutch body that dumped pressure to allow faster clutch release. If anyone knows about the newer transmissions, now is the time to inform us about them. I would be interested in how they dump pressure for clutch release myself. (getting lazy in my old age and not keeping up like I used to)

Telco it's much easier then you think to make a coupler. Check with TCI tranmissions and some others race transmission builders, they make converterless couplers for powerglides and others transmissions. Circle track racers use adapters that completly eliminate the TC. One reason they use these converted transmissions is an automatic can be lighter and stronger than a manual, when properley set up. (before every one screams, I did say PROPERLY SET UP).

Now some positive comments on reasons for keeping the TC. As dimitri says, it's a lot easier to keep it in the trans even though it is heavy. Then just idle the motor at stops, You would need to find out what rpm/voltage/amprage combination it takes to keep the trans under pressure and give a slight creep on flat ground. Then you would make/modify/design and build a control unit to supply that power with a fully released throttle. The trick here is to minimise TC slipage on take off by engageing the TC clutch as soon as you can when coming "Off Idle" and do this without overloading the TC clutch with too much torque form the motor. This will eliminate a lot of the comments about power wasting slushboxes. With the properly timed, positive, fast shifting found in automatics it might even equal surpass the maunal in OVERALL efficency.

Maybe one really nice feature to keeping the TC is hill climbing. (You all check me on this, maybe my logic is faulty.) I think that as the motor loads down and before a transmission downshift if you release the TC clutch and let the TC go back into slippage mode (Torque Multiplication) turning rpm into torque. The motor would speed up into a more efficient rpm range and you would still get the torque needed to climb the hill without pulling big amps and heating everything up. What do you all think, am I on to something or am I all wet?

I can think of a number of ways to use the TC clutch in regen and the TC and pump for hill retardation and motor overspeed control. I bet you all can think of a lot more ways to do other things. 

Turn what are thought to be negitives of an auto into positives. I'm very impressed with how you have all run with the transmission ECM programing and blending it into EV control needs. 

Keep it up, I'm haveing a ton of fun watching you guys develope this stuff.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Then just idle the motor at stops, You would need to find out what rpm/voltage/amprage combination it takes to keep the trans under pressure and give a slight creep on flat ground.


Why do you need to create creep? That seems just like wasted energy. Why not just give enough RPM's to keep enough pressure to eliminate transmission lag when you hit the throttle?


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Why do you need to create creep? That seems just like wasted energy. Why not just give enough RPM's to keep enough pressure to eliminate transmission lag when you hit the throttle?


JRP3,

Creep would be added to prevemt roll back. It is not an absolute requirement, just a suggestion.

My thought was, since we are discussing build/design of something that would drive transparently to Joe Average and his wife and kids we should make it act as much like the common ICE and Auto combo as possible. Ol'e Joe is used to holding the car with the service brake and to allowing the trans to keep the car moving forward at idle/stops. Ol'e Joe is also used to letting the powertrain do its thing once the vehicle is moving so any shift map we describe should be acceptible.

Like always, I try to think outside the box. Like always, you seem to do a good job of keeping me from falling off the edge. Thanks


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Rather than "creep" requiring the brake to be applied and the TC to slip, couldn't we accomplish the same thing by a trigger attached to the brake "fully released" position ? If resting your foot on the brake pedal stopped the motor, but taking your foot off the pedal immediately powered the motor just enough to prevent the vehicle from rolling backward or forward ? This should be a simple function to build into a controller -- increase amps as long as vehicle transmission is in gear and the motor is being forced to turn the wrong direction, until the motor is getting enough power to hold the vehicle in position.

I had to qualify that "direction" part since the other scary situation is when you are trying to reverse up a slope. I don't know about other states, but in California, if you meet another vehicle on a steep single-lane road, the vehicle headed downhill is the one that must reverse to allow the other guy to come through. Pretty scary footwork with a manual transmission, but a piece of cake with an auto that "creeps" enough to hold vehicle position even before you get your foot over to the accelerator pedal.


----------



## Keith (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi All, I am just starting on my first conversion its a 1994 GEO Tracker with an automatic. I am still in the process of deicing it. I wanted to use the Automatic transmission because my wife won't drive a stick. I kept getting "thats not how its done". I have never been very good at doing something because thats how its always been done. This thread is a breath of fresh air. I am just learning about automatic transmissions. I am very green on automatics. I just purchased the factory 1994 Tracker service manual. I want to be involved in this conversation. I will ad what I can but I am sure I will ask a lot of questions.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I think each auto transmission is different, and before anyone does anything drastic to theirs they should consult the factory manual and figure out how it works.

I have a Honda Civic with an A4RA transmission and I just went through the factory manual again to look up how the TC lockup works. I found that the TC is this transmission is not only the ATF pump, but also the ATF pressure regulator. The lockup is also interesting, when the PCM gives it the signal to lock, the TC locks up and all the excess fluids are drained from it, taking all the losses from the TC out of the equation. The TC is also the flywheel for the transmission, and the whole unit probably weighs 30 lbs.

There are also sensors that monitor the TC, and if the TC is removed, the transmission will go into LIMP mode and only work in 2nd gear, or not at all. Keeping it was really the only option, and it made the adapter plate and coupling easier for me. Now I have a plate design and coupling design that works on both Civic Gen6 manual transmission and automatic transmissions.


----------



## E DAKOTA (Mar 13, 2009)

TELCO.
You commented on a TH350 w/a vacuum modulator. The Mazda has a TH350 w/o a torqueconverter. I used a cable opperated replacement for a vaccum modulator. Available from B&M for non naturaly asperated eng.

I am a die hard auto transmission fan. I am a auto transmission tech at a 
chevrolet dealer, for 11+ years. Automotive tech for 19 years. I understand this stuff!

The TH350 works good, but I want more! I have a compleetly new concept for a ev automatic, & when I compleet the dakota conversion I can resume buiding it.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Nice. I didn't know such a thing existed, but then the last time I messed with a TH350 was 1995 when I pulled mine to put a 700R4 in, which was later replaced with a TH400 when I killed the 700R4. When I got rid of that truck, I've had overdrives ever since.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> Foam is a NO-NO in an auto (ask me how I know).


Jim, I got a question related to this, I think. I drained the ATF from transmission and TC when taking it out for mating with the Warp9. Once motor/tranny were back in the car, I started pouring new ATF back in. According to my car manual, total capacity is 7 quarts. So entire 5 quart bottle went in and another quart from 2 quart bottle, then I decided to stop and check. The stick is showing too high fluid level 
I figured that TC is still empty since I didn't spin it yet, so I used 12V battery and spun it for 30 sec or so, I heard fluid splashing in there, etc. But the level is still showing too high. So, what's going on? Do I need to drain some? Am I measuring it wrong? Needless to say, this is my first time changing ATF 

Any advise?

Thanks


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm no AT expert but I can think of two possibilities. Maybe you didn't actually get all the old fluid out when you drained it, or you may need to spin it again and run it through all the gears to get all the fluid where it needs to go


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you measuring it when it's running?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

dimitri said:


> Jim, I got a question related to this, I think. I drained the ATF from transmission and TC when taking it out for mating with the Warp9. Once motor/tranny were back in the car, I started pouring new ATF back in. According to my car manual, total capacity is 7 quarts. So entire 5 quart bottle went in and another quart from 2 quart bottle, then I decided to stop and check. The stick is showing too high fluid level
> I figured that TC is still empty since I didn't spin it yet, so I used 12V battery and spun it for 30 sec or so, I heard fluid splashing in there, etc. But the level is still showing too high. So, what's going on? Do I need to drain some? Am I measuring it wrong? Needless to say, this is my first time changing ATF
> 
> Any advise?
> ...



I am guessing a: you didn't really drain the TC unless you took out a drain plug on the TC itself . most keep a couple of qts, even disassembled

b: my boy's ranger takes about 5 minutes to fill the cooler line AFTER the trans gets warm which then eats up about 2 qts. you are supposed to check warm, generally, or about 150 degrees, in park, idling.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> I am guessing a: you didn't really drain the TC unless you took out a drain plug on the TC itself . most keep a couple of qts, even disassembled
> 
> b: my boy's ranger takes about 5 minutes to fill the cooler line AFTER the trans gets warm which then eats up about 2 qts. you are supposed to check warm, generally, or about 150 degrees, in park, idling.


TC was rebuilt in the shop, pretty sure it was empty when they gave it to me 

I just ran it for 20 min idle, then drove for a mile, but I get no power even in 1st gear, although it could be the loaner Kelly controller, because I don't pull more than 100Amps and motor doesn't get to 2000RPM. But if I push the throttle in idle it spins up pretty fast to 4000 RPM.

Transmission cooler is also new, but its small, I don't think it can hold more than half quart. It got a little warm, so I think the ATF is in there.

The measuring stick shows too much fluid, but I don't get how its possible, I only put 6 quarts in there


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

After an hour of running idle and in first gear around the block, transmission is pretty hot, controller is pretty hot, motor is barely warm. The car barely moves, at full throttle in first gear I get 2000RPM at 10-15 MPH. Ammeter doesn't go past 100 Amps.

Too many variables, could be crappy controller, many people with Kelly report same results. Could be too much or too little ATF. Could be bad TC, it was rebuilt and tested by very reputable shop, so I hope its not bad, but how can I know for sure?

Amount of ATF bothers me the most, I really don't want to ruin the tranny. Perhaps I should drain it and pour it back one quart at a time and test spin it in between


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Or drain off one quart, then check it again. Repeat till fluid level is where it should be.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> After an hour of running idle and in first gear around the block, transmission is pretty hot, controller is pretty hot, motor is barely warm. The car barely moves, at full throttle in first gear I get 2000RPM at 10-15 MPH. Ammeter doesn't go past 100 Amps.
> 
> Too many variables, could be crappy controller, many people with Kelly report same results. Could be too much or too little ATF. Could be bad TC, it was rebuilt and tested by very reputable shop, so I hope its not bad, but how can I know for sure?
> 
> Amount of ATF bothers me the most, I really don't want to ruin the tranny. Perhaps I should drain it and pour it back one quart at a time and test spin it in between


dimitri,

Please excuse some of these questions, but after 40 years of seeing some of the things people do . . . 

You did check for draging brakes binding in the drivetrain and such? Sometimes the simple stuff slips by.

By my Chek Chart book you should be using Dexron III, IV or VI in this transmission.

*EDIT Checks MUST be done with the motor running at idle END EDIT*

*2nd EDIT. You did seat the converter properly? You didn't have to pull the motor and trans together using the bolts did you? END EDIT* 

Was the transmission oil foamy when you checked it after running? If it was, it could mean the transmission was overfilled, This condition can cause a trans tp act just like your are discribing except you should be pulling max amps. The controller could be backing off because it is sensing a overload, hence only 200 amps, or the controller could be wonky.

Let's get the fluid problem fixed first.

First drain the pan of the transmission, might be a drain plug, might need to remove the pan. If the oil that drains out is foamy you have to leave the trans sit overnight.

1.) Don't reuse the oil you drain out.
2.) Put in about 1/2 the amount of oil you drained out. 
3.) With the trans in park start the motor in the idle mode. (it must be in idle mode throughout the checks)
4.) Holding the brake shift through all of the gears.
5.) Place the transmission in park and check the fluid level.
6.) Adjust the fluid level as needed, if the trans is not fully warmed up leave it slightly low. You can final check it later when the fluid is warmed up.
7.) Test drive the car. If the performance is still the same, the problem is not an overfilled trans.

I might suspect the controller as the next prime suspect.

When they overhauled your converter was it done at that shop or was it an exchange (very very very very rare that a shop overhauls a converter anymore). If its an exchange suspect it. There could be a bad overrunning clutch which "could/might" cause these symptoms.

Get these fixed/checked first. Keep us posted, we will keep thinking.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Your transmission should not get hot. Mine really doesn't get above ambient temp when cruising. Did you use the proper factory spec ATF? If not, your could be adding extra stress and burning out the transmission.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Your transmission should not get hot. Mine really doesn't get above ambient temp when cruising. Did you use the proper factory spec ATF? If not, your could be adding extra stress and burning out the transmission.


TheSGC

You bring up an VERY important point. 

The transmission oil cooler in the ICE radiator should properly be called a cooler/warmer. The fluid needs to be warmed to above 120° F to work properly and to evaporate condensation. The radiator cooler actually warms the oil in cold weather and brings it to operating temp faster in the warmer weather.

We should all think about that. 

Maybe adding thermostats to the oil cooler circuits and even heaters might be possible answers.

Maybe something else.

Any thoughts out there?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I used Valvoline MAX Life Dex/Merc ATF. It lists bunch of ATF types on the back, including the one from Mazda manual, so it should be good. It was most expensive ATF in the store.

I can't tell if its foaming by looking at the dipstick, it just shows too much level. I will drain some tomorrow, so it will settle overnight. I will drain 2 quarts and then follow your steps to measure and then adjust level accordingly.

It's probably overfilled, but I was thrown off by 7 quart total volume, I was sure that it was all empty since cooler and TC were replaced and whole tranny was removed and drained. I just can't see how there could be 2-3 quarts still in there  before I started filling back up.

I think controller is too small/crappy for this motor, but I should at least be able to pull 150-200 Amps and get to 35-40 Mph.

More to come tomorrow, thanks all for your feedback!


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> I used Valvoline MAX Life Dex/Merc ATF. It lists bunch of ATF types on the back, including the one from Mazda manual, so it should be good. It was most expensive ATF in the store.
> 
> I can't tell if its foaming by looking at the dipstick, it just shows too much level. I will drain some tomorrow, so it will settle overnight. I will drain 2 quarts and then follow your steps to measure and then adjust level accordingly.
> 
> ...


dimitri,

If the trans shop tested the converter they may have filled it to test it, that would explaine the overfill.

My Chek Chart book says a dry fill on that trans should be 7.5 qts so you are right on there. But that's for a dry trans. Even drained there might be a couple of quarts left in the transmission and valve body.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> You did check for draging brakes binding in the drivetrain and such? Sometimes the simple stuff slips by.
> 
> *2nd EDIT. You did seat the converter properly? You didn't have to pull the motor and trans together using the bolts did you? END EDIT*


TC is all the way in, motor and trans came together like a glove, no force.

In neutral I can move the car back and forth in the garage by one hand, I don't think there are any binds.

Even at 4000RPM in Park it spins smooth, no vibrations. At lowest idle setting it spins at about 100RPM, barely pulling any current, so it tells me I have no mechanical issues, right?

Do you guys think I am hijacking this thread? Is this relevant here? SHould I start a new one?

Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Jimdear2 said:


> TheSGC
> 
> You bring up an VERY important point.
> 
> ...


Before I converted the Civic to an EV I did extensive temperature testings on the ATF lines and found that they were about ambient temp, except for a serious hill climb, then they would go up to 120F peak. I have the data somewhere to make sure, but for the most part the tranny ran cold. 

I know Honda's require special ATF, and if you don't use it the transmission won't last long. I am not sure of the exact specs on it, but it's only available to Honda dealers/mechanics but doesn't cost much to get. 

Dimitri, I would set that Kelly to Balanced, drain some ATF and give it another go. My KDH09401 runs my Civic fine and I am not over taxing the controller at all. I can get 215 AMPs from the batteries, which is what is expected on a 400 AMP controller, and I can maintain 40 MPH no problem, except hills where the little motor would over heat (but the controller didn't).


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> When they overhauled your converter was it done at that shop or was it an exchange (very very very very rare that a shop overhauls a converter anymore). If its an exchange suspect it. There could be a bad overrunning clutch which "could/might" cause these symptoms.


My TC was ruined when I cut off the pilot shaft (still kicking myself for doing it), so they found same TC in the shop and overhauled it for me. I trust them 95%, its the best TC shop in Tampa. It was still hot from final welding and paint was sticky when I got it, just off the test machine they told me. Obviously taking it off would be the last thing I'd do, since I have to disassemble whole freaking EV to get to it.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> My TC was ruined when I cut off the pilot shaft (still kicking myself for doing it), so they found same TC in the shop and overhauled it for me. I trust them 95%, its the best TC shop in Tampa. It was still hot from final welding and paint was sticky when I got it, just off the test machine they told me. Obviously taking it off would be the last thing I'd do, since I have to disassemble whole freaking EV to get to it.


dimitri,

From what you have said over all of these threads, I would guess you have a severly overfilled transmission. 

Converter off the test machine would have some fluid in it.
+
A drained trans would still have fluid in it.
+
Add 7 qts.
= 
Overfilled
=
Hydraulic drag and sloshing inside the trans case.

Hope that's it

Darn, it's off season and about 20 big turkeys are out in the south field just strolling around. Won't see a one of them come season.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jim,

I followed your instructions, drained 2 quarts of ATF, set it in idle, measured, poured some back, measured again.... I am at proper level now, with about 1.5 quarts left. So, yes, it was severely overfilled 

I think my mechanical issues are resolved for now, the car still won't drive past first gear, controller gets very hot and won't push any amps. This Kelly is not meant for a car with Warp9.

I don't want to hijack this thread anymore, I will be posting in my build thread, only come back here with auto tranny specific stuff.

Thanks all for the feedback, see ya in the other thread


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Dimitri:

actually, IMHO, your problem was indeed a great help to the others who may or may not understand the TC holds fluid, and the need for proper levels of fluid.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

To all,

At this time we suspect dimitri's transmission is locked in limp mode (PCM keeps the trans in 3rd gear and will not shift) and he is persuing a few avenues to locate and correct the problem.

I've asked him to post the resolution on this thread.


----------



## gtyler (May 4, 2008)

Hi, I have an Auto Daihatsu Charade I bought with a blown head gasket for an elecric conversion, so I have also been thinking of leaving the auto in. I think it will mean much lower motor current at pull off, specially if I leave the torque converter in. is it not worth worth leaving it in to get the 2.25:1 torque multiplication? then control the lockup to come in much earier? 2.25:1 torque increase equates to 1/2.25 of the current....
In fact, would it not be an option with an electric car to just have the lockup torque converter? If I floor the pedal with the brakes on the gas engine revs to 2,200 RPM, is this where the maximum torque multiplication happens?




Big-Foot said:


> Who am I?
> A gearhead like you are. I now make a living in technology but am a certified journeyman mechanic as well. I'm in my mid-fifties and old enough to know when I'm beat and how to capitalize on other peoples work as well as their mistakes. I currently do racecar fabrication and I drive as well during those hours that Corp. America does not have her hooks in me. Like many gearheads, I have more projects than time.. When I crossed the boundary into my 50's I realized that I was burning hours on the sofa in front of the idiot box that


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Well, folks, I can report preliminary success in using electronically controlled auto trans in EV. As Jim suggested I reproduced original crank shaft pulse signal by fabricating 35 tooth wheel, same as OEM was. Here is the pic of it.









As soon as RPM signal returned, tranny came alive and started shifting as normal. I am now driving around the block and I can definitely feel it shifting. Unfortunately my pathetic temporary controller won't let me get any serious testing done, as it heats up within few minutes and shuts down. But trasmission is all good now, woo hoo!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cool, it's always nice when the fix is a simple one  Can't wait for the BMF to get plugged in


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I want to share results of a very important test I did. As we all know we must be able to control shift points in auto trans so we can keep EM at higher RPMs. Few ideas been discussed, but the simplest and most elegant one is to use TPS signal. Instead of having TPS tied to the throttle, we can just set it in desired position which would force trans to shift at specific RPM/speed points based on the graph below. TPS is just a 5k pot, it gives 0-5V range of voltage into the ECU/TCU ( at least that is how it works in my Mazda, I assume other cars are similar ). So, instead of connecting OEM TPS, I connected 5k precision pot, which I can adjust to whatever value I want. Below graph shows the horizontal red line where my pot is currently set, which gives me shift points marked as dotted vertical lines.

I was afraid that such approach will fail since ECU/TCU will detect non-zero value of TPS at the start and throw it into limp mode again, but my testing proved that is not the case. I raised front wheels and tested it, it shifted exactly as expected, at higher RPMs. Once I start driving it, I can adjust the pot value to exact shifting positions that I want.

As a bonus, this approach removed WOT Kickdown feature, since TPS position is fixed, there will never be WOT signal at the ECU/TCU. We discussed above that kickdown in EV is not desired.

IMHO, this is a huge breakthru in using auto trans in EV. What do you guys think?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Almost seems too simple. Good work!


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

It's so simple and brilliant. I'm gonna do it!!! I just found the shift pattern graph for my tranny, and I am going to do the same thing!


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Also, I promised to publish schematics on how I implemented the idle mode. Here it is, hope it makes sense. It basically provides following sequence:

1. Ignition key turns on the controller, but NC relay contact is shorting out both pots, so controller "thinks" throttle is at zero and controller initializes without "open throttle" errors.

2. Driver turns the key to Starter position, just like in ICE car. This energizes the relay, which closes NO contact and locks the relay power from the Ignition cirquit, at this time Starter can be released, but relay will stay energized.

3. When relay energizes, NC relay contacts open and controller throttle input will see 1K precision pot and 5k throttle pot in series. Precision pot lets you adjust idle speed. Once you press the pedal, combined resistance will increase and motor will speed up.

4. Cancel idle button can be pressed when sitting at long stops, to preserve energy without shutting off the ignition. Release the button before taking off and idle will resume.

5. As a safety feature, NC contact covers both pots, so the car cannot be moved by pressing the throttle until you engaged the "Starter".

Hope this makes sense.


----------



## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Also, I promised to publish schematics on how I implemented the idle mode. Here it is, hope it makes sense. It basically provides following sequence:
> 
> 1. Ignition key turns on the controller, but NC relay contact is shorting out both pots, so controller "thinks" throttle is at zero and controller initializes without "open throttle" errors.
> 
> ...


That is an excellent solution. The only change I'd make is that rather than having a 'cancel idle' button, in a car like your Protege5 with a true hand-brake, I'd use a micro-switch instead so that idle is cancelled when the hand-brake is on. Where I learned to drive (the UK) it's an instinct to apply the hand-brake at almost any stop (light). When pulling off again the natural procedure is:

- apply foot brake
- release hand-brake (idle starts again)
- release foot brake - idle keeps you in position/drifts you forward
- move foot to accelerator and off you go!

Stuart


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

dimitri,

There you go . . . Paying It Forward.

What an elegant, simple way to solve a problem I've been considering. I hope it has applications on other brands of transmission.

Have you given any thought to tying this to converter lockup. My thoughts are:
1.) Big slow turning motor, lock up early and shift as late as possible within the constraints of motor rpm limit.
2.) Small high rpm motor, lock up later, after hydraulic lock up in the converter to get as much advantage from torque multiplacation as possible.

One area that needs research is how much torque the lock up clutch can hold.

I really like your "Start" button setup. I am (well my brother the EE) is trying to come up with a simple motor stall preventer. We are going to just ground the pot to shut down the controller when the motor dropped to 50 rpm. We can use our circuit to unlatch the relay of your circuit, then all it needs is a tap on the start button to reset.

We are using a simular latching circuit for the runaway stopper. 

A thought on the start button. For those who need a precharge delay, a timer and pilot light in the activation circuit. Hit start position wait until pre charge complete pilot light came on and the the vehicle was ready to drive. Somthing like the diesel glow plug systems.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

jimdear2: rule of thumb based on my personal testing: Stock Tc will generally handle 1 1/2 times original engine torque/ HP, until it gets really hot which it will when overloaded that way. 8000, 9000 rpm seems to be a limit also. Race style Tc seems to be immune to this.

As you know, stall speed also will go up, but I can't predict that value. 

No data on extended cruise temps, because car only went 1/4 mile at a whack. I would think that freeway driving would be at normal temps. constant rapid accel in traffic might overheat.

Big cooler recommended if someone wants to go that route.

Your actual mileage can and will vary.


----------



## swamplizard50 (May 16, 2009)

I have an automatic, it is a 1985 that requires vacume on the shifting module.Would it work if it was connected to the same vacume as the power brakes?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

it uses vacuum to signal shift points based on throttle. I believe low manifold vacuum delays the up shift, or it will downshift immediately. Jimdear2 or someone else knows better than me. Just plug it and shift manually.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

swamplizard50 said:


> I have an automatic, it is a 1985 that requires vacume on the shifting module.Would it work if it was connected to the same vacume as the power brakes?


The unit that the vacuum line is connected to is called a vacuum modulator. It's job is to modify the system pressure based on engine load which it sensed through manifold vacuum.

Other and newer transmissions used a cable connected to the throttle to do the same thing. One reason for the change was a ruptured diaphram in a modulator would let the engine suck the fluid out of a transmission. Lots of white smoke and damaged transmissions.

High vacuum ment a closed throttle and no real engine load so the system pressure was lowered to ease the shifts at low power. At low vacuum (throttle wide open) the system pressure was raised and gave harder faster shifts.

Can you hook it up, short answer is yes , but since it will always have a high vacuum, the trans will always shift soft and slow. The likleyhood of transmission wear and damage is high, especially since the electric motor places high torque at low rpm.

You could build yourself a vacuum porting system that could mimic the ICE vacuum map, but I think the better bet would be just to vent it to the atmosphere. Use a small fuel filter and hose to prevent dirt and water entry DON"T just plug it off. 

A note, many vacuum modulators had adjustible pins or different length pins that allowed adjusting the pressure within a small range. you could fine tune the shift feel and harshness that way.

Sorry to lecture but it's best to understand how these things work if you are going to modify them.

Remember Memorial Day 
Freedom isn't free. Many people paid dearly for us to have it.


----------



## swamplizard50 (May 16, 2009)

Thanks for the helpfull input guys. I believe ill be looking a standard shift.


----------



## swamplizard50 (May 16, 2009)

I wish you all a great Memorial Day! GOD BLESS OUR SOLDIERS!


----------



## luch (Apr 21, 2009)

My thanks to the illuminating posts by jimdear supporting the powerglide automatic. I found this article about dummy torque converters from circletrack.com., that may add food for thought on donor cars with automatics.

I think I am going to try direct drive on my geo tracker automatic. The automatic in a 91 Tracker is a GM 3 speed tranny TH180 Turbo Hydramatic relabeled as a 3L30. 

I've read some powerglide racing trannys remove the TC altogether and replace it with a one piece coupler that incorporates the pump spline and drive spline. The small one piece direct drive coupler I saw has a small hollow area between the 2 splines to allow the tranny fluid to circulate back into itself just as if the pump was pumping into the TC and back. It cost about $79 on ebay for a power glide but I can make one myself for my tranny by cutting the TC in half and salvaging the pump and drive splines and welding them together. Its worth a shot the Hydramatic tranny may be blown in the donor car anyway. If so, I found a powerglide on craigs list for $75. 

Now on with the power-glide and dummy TC article.

Two speed Power-glide transmission has become an increasingly rare find in junkyards and old cars. Aluminum-bodied Power-glides were produced between 1962 and 1973 (a cast-iron version was also produced, but nobody wants them for racing). People pay anywhere from $50 to $250at a junkyard nowadays just to obtain a beat-up one. If you're looking, target old Chevy IIs, Chevelles, Camaros, Pontiacs, and some GM trucks for Powerglide transmissions. The first generation of Powerglides(1962-'65) have pump gears on the rear support. The '66-'73 Powerglides are considered better because the pump gears are located at the front of the transmission, the preferred location.
Race car builders often consider the Powerglide first because of its light static weight, strong build qualities, and relatively low rotational mass. A typical Powerglide often weighs about 100 pounds (plus or minus 10 pounds, depending on the equipment and whether it has a direct-drive pump or a torque converter).
Comparatively, a three-speed manual Muncie or Saginaw transmission can weigh 30-40 pounds more than a direct-drive Powerglide when the flywheel and clutch are included. The high cost of lightening those standard transmissions, combined with the expense of a racing clutch, make the Powerglide an economical winner in many cases. Now, with the dummy torque converter, it has gotten even better.
*Racing Torque Converters*

*The Dummy Torque Converter*

The impeller pump has been modified to remove all of the internal components. It is then welded to the cover for the final assembly. It is easy to understand the value of losing all of that rotating weight.
Basically, a dummy torque converter consists only of a direct front pump drive inside a "gutted out" converter. A stock-working converter consists of the impeller, the stator, the turbine, and the front. The fins are removed from the impeller, and the stator and turbine are removed. The direct front pump drive is welded to the front, and then the top is welded to the front.
The hub part of the direct drive extends through the top, and they are welded together, thus giving it the appearance of a normal converter. These units can be built out of any converter core size, but the 10- and 11-inch converters are more common. A stock-working converter can have on the average 8-10percent slippage, whereas a dummy converter has zero. The application of power is instantaneous.
Even an aftermarket "low stall speed" converter designed for a circle track application has some slippage, so all in all, you can't get any better lockup than the dummy converter. The dummy unit will hold fluid, and it will get hot just like normal fluid, but it has no fluid actually circulating through it.
TCI installs a drain plug-in the converter to allow the racer to fill the converter with fluid. The weight difference of a working converter and a dummy unit is a major consideration. A normal working 10-inch converter weighs 28-29 pounds, whereas a dummy converter weighs only 16 pounds. The 11-inch model has about the same difference in weight variance.
Less rotating weight and zero slippage mean quicker acceleration out of the corners and down the straightaway. The fact that the unit is basically locked up helps to provide better engine braking. When you get off the throttle, it helps to set the car going into the corners so you can drive deeper into the turns.
Another advantage is that there are no moving parts inside a dummy converter to wear out or break. To use the dummy converter, you need a direct-drive style transmission. The Powerglide is the most common automatic used in circle track racing because it has less rotating weight than any other automatic transmission, and even less than that of a manual transmission.
With the TCI "clutch-less" style Powerglide, all you need to do is put it in gear and go. You can up shift on the fly and restart in low gear. With a dummy torque converter, you will have instant throttle response. That could be a huge plus when the green flag drops.


----------



## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Swamplizard, sent you a private message.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Having read all that I am certainly more convinced that auto isn't all bad.

With due consideration I would think that an auto that was sorted so that it didn't need a torque converter and could be manually and automatically controlled to select gears would be a fine alternative to the manual.

It would solve a lot of transmission issues, provide a smooth pull away and smooth gear selection.

Hmmm, good food for thought.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi all,
After reading alot of threads about automatics, I thought I would throw my experience in. I have converted GMs,Fords, Chryslers, and now Mazda automatics very simply. (although these have all been with vacuum modulators), some with lockup convertors.
I do not use an idle circuit or aux pumps or accumulators- they are not needed. Simply step on the throttle and the car will move-all the trans needs is about 50 (fifty) rpm - you will hardly notice any delay in normal driving. Although if you floor it imediately it will chirp the tires as it will engage hard then. (Dimitri-did you ever try yours without an idle circuit?)
The mazda miata also has a lockup converter, I thought about locking it all the time (eliminating any slip losses), but decided not to-I question the amount of torque it could take. I let it lock as it normally would using the trans ecu(the needed speed sensor is in the speedometer head). It needs one signal that the engine is running also.
As far as shift points, I found that without vacuum it will shift at about 4500 rpm and a little hard, so making an adjustable modulator is the answer to find the most efficient motor running rpm and having it shift just above that.
Overall I have not been able to show any appreciable range difference between the manual trans and auto trans conversions either. They are so close that getting the exact driving scenario for a comparison is almost impossible on the street.
For *Power steering*, I also use the same technique- no extra pumps,etc- just hook it up to the front motor shaft and you will get assist at less rpm than the transmission needs- the steering will start before driving. 
I had been using the curtis controller with my linear throttle until the soliton arrived now, and could run the motor at very low rpm like this-I could actually turn the steering without vehicle movement if I needed to.I had very good throttle control. (not sure if other controllers would be like this) 
So to sum it up I would try it the simplest way before I went with any additional hydraulic pumping systems.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Mike,

I tried taking off without idle as you suggested, but I don't like it since there is quite violent jerk when clutches engage 1st gear, I feel that transmission's lifecycle will be reduced if I do this all the time. Idle was very easy to implement and ,as you mentioned, energy loss is so small that its not even possible to calculate properly. My best guess is that I lose 1 mile in range because of idle, but who cares about that? I can lose several miles just by heavy acceleration with 3C discharge rates, so what? I have enough range to get anywhere I need to go....

Overall, I agree with you, EV with automatic is great. I have all OEM functions, uncluding A/C and P/S, everything works beautifully.

If I ever do more conversions I will specifically seek automatics...


----------



## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> As far as shift points, I found that without vacuum it will shift at about 4500 rpm and a little hard, so making an adjustable modulator is the answer to find the most efficient motor running rpm and having it shift just above that.


Could you elaborate on the adjustable modulator?


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree, i actually prefer the automatic myself and would never reject one in a donor car. Also, keep in mind, a lazy right hand on a manual shifter can waste much more energy than any automatic- keep that manual in a too high a gear and "lug" the motor and watch your range drop! The automatic can always be in the correct gear! 
I'll assume a harsh takeoff without an idle circuit can be attributed to a particular transmission, throttle, or motor controller (possibly the ramp setting). Still, its worth a try without it as Dimitri has shown it is a rather simple addition to the control circuit and can be easily added.

As far as the adjustable modulator,The modulator is just a diaphragm against a spring that pulls or pushes a pin operating an internal valve to cause a shift. *in general*, the modulator delays a shift. On an ICE with wide open throttle (little or no vacuum to the modulator) the trans will basically shift on the centrifical governor (or similiar) at high rpm. High vacuum (partial throttle) the shift will occur earlier as the modulator will have its control pin in a different position (usually further out from the internal valve) As mentioned earlier by another member, some modulators have an adjustment screw inside the vacuum port on the modulator that can fine tune its position. What I do is weld on a nut at the vacuum port of the modulator and with an adjustment screw through that nut attached to the pin, can by trial and error adjust the postion of that pin and lock it in place. Using the cars ammeter, I can see where the motors "sweet spot" is as far as rpm and try to adjust the shift point to maintain the best rpm for my normal driving speed.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> As far as the adjustable modulator,The modulator is just a diaphragm against a spring that pulls or pushes a pin operating an internal valve to cause a shift. *in general*, the modulator delays a shift. On an ICE with wide open throttle (little or no vacuum to the modulator) the trans will basically shift on the centrifical governor (or similiar) at high rpm. High vacuum (partial throttle) the shift will occur earlier as the modulator will have its control pin in a different position (usually further out from the internal valve) As mentioned earlier by another member, some modulators have an adjustment screw inside the vacuum port on the modulator that can fine tune its position. What I do is weld on a nut at the vacuum port of the modulator and with an adjustment screw through that nut attached to the pin, can by trial and error adjust the postion of that pin and lock it in place. Using the cars ammeter, I can see where the motors "sweet spot" is as far as rpm and try to adjust the shift point to maintain the best rpm for my normal driving speed.


Ah, I see. Pretty simple. I was imagining a seperate device to modulate the vacuum signal to the trans. That sounds easy enough. Do you have any experience using electronic automatics like the later 700r4s?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> Ah, I see. Pretty simple. I was imagining a seperate device to modulate the vacuum signal to the trans. That sounds easy enough. Do you have any experience using electronic automatics like the later 700r4s?


As it turns out, electronic autos are even easier to manage. All you need to do is supply RPM signal from OEM sensor, by reproducing same pulse pattern as original engine had. I made 35 tooth wheel with one gap ( total of 36 segments on the wheel ) and put it on accessory shaft of my Warp9. This is covered in my Protege build thread, look for it in conversions section.

Then, you replace TPS sensor with 5K trimpot and you can adjust shift points to any RPM levels you wish, works like a charm


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Ampeater-
No I have not used the 700r4 in a conversion- but if I remember right isn't the 700 controlled by the TV cable? If so, then the cable can be adjusted to make the trans shift when needed-after being attached to your standard throttle linkage. Or is that the early 700's?
If a simple fix like Dimitri suggests wouldn't work, there are aftermarket programable controllers for the popular transmissions like the 700 from speed shop suppliers.
But also, isn't that trans big and heavy for big and heavy vehicles-if so might not be in a good donor car........


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is making me wish I got an auto now. All this good information and experience definately goes against the grain for someone more used to avoiding ICE autos.

Perhaps my next conversion will be an auto.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Mike,

Based on your experience, (for a mid sized car 2500lbs), would you lean toward the powerglide two speed or say a t350 three speed auto as a base trans.

Thanks
Jack


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I personally would use the 3 speed for the following reasons, but the 2 speed has some positives, mainly weight.
Generally,(without checking the actual gear reduction numbers and using seat of the pants experience) the powerglide's two speeds compares to a four speed manual transmissions 2nd and 4th gear(direct). The ideal manual transmission gears for an ev are usually 2nd and 3rd (on a four speed). The three speed first gear is about between 1st and 2nd on the manual, and it's second gear is about 3rd on the manual, and it's 3rd gear is direct, the same as the manual's 4th gear. So you really need the three speeds 1st and 2nd gear positions, although the 3rd gear would work above 55 well.
If you have any hills in your area, the three speed's 1st gear would be beneficial in acceleration and lower amp draw.
The powerglide is definitely lighter though if weight is most important, although any amp savings from the lighter weight will probably be lost in the higher amp draw of pulling the car at lower rpm in the powerglide's 2nd gear.
As a note, I think the 200r gm transmission is pretty light and can be modified for high HP loads if need be. They were considered weak, but I know of one behind 600HP (has modifications to some shafts i believe)
So this could be an option.
I do think that any car that uses these transmissions might not be the best donor, as they are usually in heavier cars.(unless its a scratch built car and searching for a common trans) I would think more of a front wheel drive car, or a small rear wheel drive, as in my case the Miata.
If anyone has time to research weights and gear ratios, that might be useful to this thread.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

EV-Propulsion,

I have been thinking (planning) about an EV conversion for me for a long time. And I need to tap your experience to see if this is even close to reasonable.

BMW 3 series (1993-1997) with 4.44 rear (5.00 possible)
Minimum 9 inch Warp
144 Volt pack
700 amp controller
Estimated finish weight over 3000 pounds.
Powerglide Trans.

With the 4.44 Rear:
At 3500RPM in 1st gear: 33MPH
At 5000RPM in 1st gear: 48MPH
At 3500RPM in 2nd gear: 59MPH
At 5000RPM in 2nd gear: 80MPH

With the 5.00 Rear:
At 3500RPM in 1st gear: 29MPH
At 5000RPM in 1st gear: 41MPH
At 3500RPM in 2nd gear: 51MPH
At 5000RPM in 2nd gear: 71MPH

Do you think that either of these in combination with the PowerGlide would be workable? Seems like most folks end up using 2 gears any ways. Do you see the need for a third gear here? Would I be drawing way to many amps with this gearing or do you think it would be OK?

I've got my PowerGlide Transmission Handbook all dog eared up.

Thanks for any opinion that you could muster up.

Eric


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Eric,
I would think that is workable, I would probably use the 5.00 rear ratio unless you are planning alot of high speed driving. You should also figure at what speed most of your driving will be at (30, 35, 40 ?) and figure what rpm the motor would be at most of the time. I would shoot for 3000-3200 rpm at your normal speed. That could help you decide which way to go.
To see if you need a three speed, calculate your rpm in 2nd if it shifts at 3500, to find how big the rpm drop will be-I have found that, although the torque was there, under 1500 has a pretty good current draw under load.
It would be interesting to gather up some amperage numbers for different peoples cars to find the rpm "sweet spot" of the motor for different weight vehicles. Maybe we should start a thread...


----------



## El Rayo (Mar 23, 2009)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Overall I have not been able to show any appreciable range difference between the manual trans and auto trans conversions either.
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


Thanks for sharing, Mike. Do you shift the manual or leave it in one gear?


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

On the _manual_ transmissions I generally use 2nd and 3rd, but sometimes 1st also depending on terrain. Every car is different so watching the ammeter would help you decide what works the best, since the least current draw for the needed acceleration or speed is the best.
On the _automatic_ trans, I just let the transmission shift by itself-put it in D and go.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks Mike,

I will be doing a scratch build and am trying to decide on how complex of a trans I will need. A major piece of why I have focused on the gm products is that I can get a proven manual shift body and torque converter eliminator.

Also with the advances that became available over the past couple of years, I am reconsidering doner car suspension since you folks seam to have a steady supply of reasonable priced and weight batteries that make this practical. I may be stepping down from T-bird irs to either Miata or 86-92 Toyota Supra. Will check the wrecking yards over the coming weekend.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

here's another thread related to the current and gear ratio/rpm question which I unintentionally started down that path here.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36565&highlight=heat


----------



## E DAKOTA (Mar 13, 2009)

I am currently building a converion w/700r4. 

The 700r4 gear raitios.
1st 3.00
2nd 1.76
3rd 1.0
4th 0.76

350 gear raitios 
1st 2.52
2nd 1.52
3rd 1.0

power glide most common ratio.
other ratios available

1st 1.76
2nd 1.0

I am using the 700r4, and changeing the rear axle ratio from 3.55 to 4.56.


----------



## sgt_ev (Oct 6, 2009)

Thank you. I actually found a great donor car for free. Has automatic in it. Before reading this thought I would be SOL again. I look forward to reading more threads by you.


----------



## sgt_ev (Oct 6, 2009)

So, the tranny starts out in D2 from the get go? Without any modifications?



TheSGC said:


> Yes, the D2 setting forces the transmission into 2nd and only second, where as D3 and D4 use all gears up to 3rd or 4th. The only code the PCM throws is my missing TPS sensor, which I have been too lazy to rebuild. BUt other than that, it works just fine.
> 
> I have not tested the ATF temp since it became an EV, but when it was an ICE the temp was about 95-145F on the hottest summer days going up hills. Usually it stayed around 60-75F when cruising.
> 
> ...


----------



## sgt_ev (Oct 6, 2009)

First, sorry about all the replies, but I find this stuff fascinating!

SO, in theory......

If you found all the solenoids in your tranny, you could make your own "push button / electronic" shifter. You would not even need the PCM/ECU because YOU would have the ability to shift the gear as you deem fit. Yes yes, I know it would be like a manual... But work with me here...

Now, having said that and if it would work, you could use the existing gear selector as the "Switch" just as you would normally do if you wanted to select a certain gear.

Anyone following me or am I too scattered? Anyways, seems plausible to me. Let me have some input!

Thanks.



TheSGC said:


> Usually an Automatic transmission changes gears by activating 4-5 12 volt solenoids in different configurations, allowing for the different clutches to engage. My Civic has the configurations for changing the gears, and I have been tempted to build my own PCM to allow for better gear selection, I just don't know the different signal patterns from the transmission's main shaft, counter-shaft, etc. How ever, I could just bypass them and shift according to MPH and have it translated into RPM to maximize efficiency.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

sgt_ev said:


> So, the tranny starts out in D2 from the get go? Without any modifications?


Exactly, the D2 setting means 2nd gear from the get go, and Honda says it's used for Snow traction.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

sgt_ev said:


> First, sorry about all the replies, but I find this stuff fascinating!
> 
> SO, in theory......
> 
> ...


Basically, yes you could build your own push button shifter. However, there is a catch, at least on my transmission. The Shifter has actual linkage to adjust from Park, Reverse, Neutral, D4, D3, D2. After 1,000 miles I have found just using the 5K Pot to replace the TPS works just fine. 

My only beef with making the auto more manual is over revving the motor, or busting the internal pumps because the RPMs were too high. Also, the ECU regulates lockup converter, ATF pressure, proper clutches release times, etc.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

sgt_ev said:


> First, sorry about all the replies, but I find this stuff fascinating!
> 
> SO, in theory......
> 
> ...


You would still need some logic controller since each gear is a logical combination of several solenoids in various on/off state, its not as simple as each solenoid controlling each gear. There is a table in the shop manual which describes this logic. So, yes, you could make a logic controller with buttons, etc, but why? Just keep the ECU and don't reinvent the wheel...


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

SGT EV,

What type of car / Transmission is it? 
Perhaps we can help you further knowing what it is you are working with. While most work in similar fashion these days there ar many of us who have worked with different types or transmissions withour builds... 

MO


----------



## sgt_ev (Oct 6, 2009)

Mo_Bandy said:


> SGT EV,
> 
> What type of car / Transmission is it?
> Perhaps we can help you further knowing what it is you are working with. While most work in similar fashion these days there ar many of us who have worked with different types or transmissions withour builds...
> ...


Hi!

It is 1999 Plymouth Breeze. Automatic. I originally was going to get a VW bug. BUT, this car is only $200. The interior is in great condition and it is a good looking car minus the paint... It has power windows, doors, etc. I think if done up right, it could be a good EV. 

The automatic is scarring me a bit. I have read this entire thread and I feel more confident. Everyone is so helpful. it's great. I think I can work through it. Might take me a bit though.  Plus I am sure I will have a ton of questions.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Exactly, the D2 setting means 2nd gear from the get go, and Honda says it's used for Snow traction.


Question for TheSGC:

so why wouldn't you connect the TPS to the 5kpot that you use on your throttle(gas) pedal? It seems you are using one that you mounted on the dash....

If you were to connect the throttle to the TPS then the transmission knows how much your throttle is depressed and will shift accordingly, at all times...not just intermittently when you turn the knob on the dash...

am i missing something?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Bowser330 said:


> Question for TheSGC:
> 
> so why wouldn't you connect the TPS to the 5kpot that you use on your throttle(gas) pedal? It seems you are using one that you mounted on the dash....
> 
> ...


I can't because the place where the TPS went is now my potbox, and you cant share connections on the potbox with the controller and the car's computer. Things will go boom if you do.

The real reason why your idea wouldn't work is because the transmission was designed to go with an ICE, and when you let off from accelerating the and set you pedal to cruising your ICE will shift into the lowest gear possible. For example, if I don't set my 5k pot high enough, I will be cruising to 30 MPH and the transmission will shift into 3rd @ 1750 RPM and I really want to be in 2nd @ 2800 RPM for better efficiency.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> Question for TheSGC:
> 
> so why wouldn't you connect the TPS to the 5kpot that you use on your throttle(gas) pedal? It seems you are using one that you mounted on the dash....
> 
> ...


See post #131 in this thread, with a graph of shift points. The red line indicates static value of TPS sensor which crosses shift points lines at specific speeds.

This means that you don't need to change TPS value as you drive, you just pick the best value for best RPM efficiency for your EV.

ICE needs variable shift points for aggressive shifting, but you don't need that in EV where efficiency is more important and torque is available at low RPM, so you just set one value via trimpot and keep it.

I have proven all this in my EV, it works beatifully. My TPS value is set to 40%.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dimitri said:


> See post #131 in this thread, with a graph of shift points. The red line indicates static value of TPS sensor which crosses shift points lines at specific speeds.
> 
> This means that you don't need to change TPS value as you drive, you just pick the best value for best RPM efficiency for your EV.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the replies.

Dimitri, excellent post !#131 , I should had read that before asking...my bad.

that graph makes a lot of sense...

The 5Kpot could be considered the sport/economy dial...cool


----------



## Otmar (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: The Reasons why Automatic Gearboxes WILL Work with EV's &amp; how to do it..*

Very interesting thread. 

I've only made one AT EV. It was a Subaru Wagon and after running it around the block on low voltage I never found time to finish it. 
I believe that a properly modified AT is the best solution for DC conversions, mostly since it includes the parking pawl but also since many people want AT and may overspeed a DC motor without one. I was tempted by the 4T80E tied to a single 8" for racing, but I really don't know AT's well at all. 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that I feel the TPS or vacuum signal needs to be connected to motor current (=torque) or throttle and be the reverse of the ICE setup. We want to shift late at light load for efficiency and very early at high load to draw more current for acceleration. 

Keep up the great progress.
________
Yamaha XT225


----------



## E DAKOTA (Mar 13, 2009)

Otmar,

As far as GM automatic trans controls go, they are quite simple.

Shift timing is controlled by turning on & off two solonoilds. Load or torque is controlled by a pwm sol.

A stand alone transmission control module is available, unsure if it could be
adjusted that drasticaly.

With your knowledge & experience, you could probably create your own.

I have been working on a non-computerised version, however is has been put on hold while I convert one.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Right now I'm learning assembler for the Parallax Propeller chip. It is indeed a steep learning curve. The goal is to scratch-build my own AC drive with the newer style multi-core processor. I won't make the design contest deadline this year so I'll have to shoot for a submission in fall 2010. With eight processors on a single chip I see no reason why another cog launched to control an electric transmission would not work. Two years from now I'd like to drive my electric station wagon with the AC-drive and transmission control integrated on a single chip. You've got to set a dead-line before you can miss it. If there is any cogs left one could drive the dash instruments with it, especially if they are serial devices. I've started a file on the late GM electric transmissions. Getting the right one from a doner car is cruical.


----------



## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

When did automatics drop below manuals in terms of weight? For example, a 2008 Corolla CE weighs in at 2530 for a manual and 2595 for an auto, I don't think it's always the case, but for the most part it holds AFAIK.


----------



## paker (Jun 20, 2008)

When manuals went to 6 forward speeds?


----------



## roflwaffle (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't think so, for instance the Mazda6 has a six speed mt and the auto version is still heavier across the board. Not that it's an issue, a 50b difference doesn't matter much w/ a ~3000lb car, but this is the first time I've read someone claim automatics are lighter.


----------



## bileaux (Jan 24, 2009)

Hi,
I'm new here and I have been reading this thread for hours and you guys talk way above my understanding. 
I'm contemplating converting my '91 Mustang convertible with an AOD transmission to an EV. This car had a supercharger on it and made about 500 hp. The transmission has a shift kit installed on it which turns this transmission into a shift on demand unit. If I want I can, and if not paying attention, can start from a dead stop in whatever gear that is selected. Can't I just use the transmission as is and experiment what gear to start off in, monitor rpm and move the gear selection lever up or down to maintain optimum rpm?
I know this is not at "ture" automatic, but having control over rpm selection has always been important for optimum performance.
Please see and post info on the thread "ev choice???" on the All EV Conversions and Builds forum.
Thanks...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that should work and is probably the easiest way to do it.


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree!

MO


----------



## mrcshbs (Nov 25, 2008)

Hi,

My name is Marcos, I build an EV using an automatic transmission...

as a prototype, works great... big sedan with 72V system.. LOL... not to expect much, but the design was very simple and WORKS GREAT!!!

Auto Tranny vehicle can be very good EV's

please check out the corsica:

http://www.evalbum.com/2006

Marcos
[email protected]


----------



## bileaux (Jan 24, 2009)

Marcos, read your EV build, your quote "3,500 Pounds _(1,590 Kilograms)_
engine, fuel system, almost everything taken out, whole car was re-wired from ground up." Weight should be somewhere my Mustang will reside. But really love the whole car rewiring. Just want to know if you kept the car's computer to determine shift points? I have a shift kit on my trany so I don"t think I need the computer???? I know the rest of the programing was for engine management, seems like an extra dead weight to keep if unless I'm overlooking something.


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

OK. The title of this thread is:"The Reasons why Automatic Gearboxes WILL Work with EV's & how to do it.." I am new to building a EV and want to put an electric motor in my automatic car. I am not concerned about whether the trans is heavier than a manual or any other argumentative jargon. Lets get to brass tacks and discuss how it is done, i.e.. How it is done with and w/out TC, how is a Glide used if not using stock transmission, if using a more current model how exactly should one deal with the different electronics of a AT.etc... A "how to do it" guide would be great.
Best regards,
Richard Konnen


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm running a 4L60E I'm running a 2400 stall convertor which is a locking converter... I just idle the motor at about 400 rpm's I have programmed the torque converter to lock as low as it will in second gear... Eventually I will go with a lower stall, but that is what I'm using at the moment. If you have the ability to prgram that makes things in my mind a bit easier. But most people thatI'm aware of have not really had to go that far, aside from putting a manual switch to lock the converter. I pretty much left the ECM / PCM wiring intact and leave them in tha car.

Many people that I have read or have seen simply let the motor idle, it will drive the car. To me the current driving the motor at idle is negligable compared to driving... I personally prefer the motor to idle versus having the motor come up to speed and adding pressure to the trans and worrying about it slamming into gear ( or someone slamming into me cause I'm not moving fast enough). 

Thin the case of the power glide, some from what I understand use a separate pump to keep the trans pressure up, whether this is any different it terms of battery draw I'm not sure, I just went the simplest route and it seems to be working.

I don't believe the weight to be that significant ( as you), and the cost to exchange would still be about the same, plus figuring out whether to add the clutch pedal and other potentially needed manual drive accessories.

I can just as easily drive with the trans in "D" as I can 1 or 2 .

Good luck on your build, let me know if I can be of any further help...

MO


----------



## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

Great Thread! Just got done reading and now have changed my mind on my next conversion from MT to AT. Mostly because I want the vehicle to drive like a traditional Auto, and the increased quantity of available vehicles to start with. I'm looking at S10 or Colorado vehicles. 

found some information on the 4L60 that might effect the controls "a new input speed sensor added for the 2006 Model Year, the 4L60 is able to be tuned to match the brand character of any of its applications. "

Also Some thoughts, not sure that this will work or be cost effective, but thought I would post the idea at the same time I'm looking up the details. 

GM's new Tahoe 2-mode Hybrid (and other GMT900 2-mode hybrids) uses a electric pump to maintain pressure when ICE is not running. I think the Tahoe is an external pump as noted in the spec sheet from this link. 

http://archives.media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2010/gmna/10truck_us.htm

However I've seen some of the new Mercedes, Chrysler, BMW 2-mode hybrid transmissions use a modified pressure pump that has an electric pump in the same location as the traditional pump. This pump might package into similar standard auto transmissions by the same OEMs.

Not sure if the electric pump is only used when when the ICE is not running or the pump can be traditionally driven by torque converter. Also Not sure what voltage the pump runs at. 


Just some ideas.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The new GM hybrids have the electric motors built into the trans!

This could be interesting if you could use electric only to drive through all the regular transmission ratios.

I wonder how much torque the motors produce, looks like 50hp


----------



## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

If you remove or lock up the TC what component absorbes the shock when the trans shifts? Is there a way to release the lock on the TC durring shifts? Otherwise I assume the internal clutches will wear out faster and EM may suffer some lash.


----------



## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> The new GM hybrids have the electric motors built into the trans!
> 
> This could be interesting if you could use electric only to drive through all the regular transmission ratios.
> 
> I wonder how much torque the motors produce, looks like 50hp


About 60kw each, probably could drive the vehicle at highway speeds but might have pressure or other issues to stay in EVmode all the time. Many new hybrids will be similar as GM, BMW, & DCX, worked on this design together.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> The new GM hybrids have the electric motors built into the trans!
> 
> This could be interesting if you could use electric only to drive through all the regular transmission ratios.
> 
> I wonder how much torque the motors produce, looks like 50hp


I am going to start to be a pain in the $#& in these forums. I think it is critical that we keep our physics precise. You wonder about torque and then speculate about hp which is power equal to torque times RPM.
Wonder about power or speculate about newton-meters. The PC [physicsaly correct] patrol is on duty.
Gerhard


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> I am going to start to be a pain in the $#& in these forums. I think it is critical that we keep our physics precise. You wonder about torque and then speculate about hp which is power equal to torque times RPM.
> Wonder about power or speculate about newton-meters. The PC [physicsaly correct] patrol is on duty.
> Gerhard



Have you checked the data? 
The data given was combined (ICE and Electric) horsepower and ICE hp (most likely apex but not specified).

My "speculation" is a simple subtraction and rounded.

No power at rpm curve is given. Therefore a torque curve can not be derived from supplied data.

If you prefer to work with HP I can accept that. Please understand that I prefer to work with Torque curves.

I'm catching whiffs of troll.....


----------



## E DAKOTA (Mar 13, 2009)

The Tahoe hy-brid trans does not have a torque converter, just a dampener. The two motor/generators are 60kw. The first motor/generator, is mostly used to start the ice & charge the battery pack. the second is primarily used to drive the truck. 

On normal acell. the second motor starts the vehicle moving & at aprox. 15mph the first motor starts the ice & a clutch will engauge to connect the ice to the trans.

When at a stop, & the ice is not running, there is a electric pump to keep clutches applied. it is a 3phase 12volt pump.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks for the further details on this trans.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

MJ Monterey said:


> The new GM hybrids have the electric motors built into the trans!
> 
> This could be interesting if you could use electric only to drive through all the regular transmission ratios.


The first stage of all the hybrids seems to be a "power split device" which was developed first as an electronically variable transmission. The EVT is actually a fantastic device which was known early, but it was abandoned at the time because it was not possible to manage the power generated and absorbed by it. Modern hybrid systems designers added a second motor to solve that problem.
Now, if we step back to our present problem, we already have two electric motors... so putting our prime traction motor in place of the ICE, we can dispense with the second stage of modern hybrid drives and have a great EVT..
If we use a Prius I first stage, the traction motor (driving forward) should have 2.6 times the torque capability of the control (reversible) m/g.
Gerhard


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Gerhard,

You may have just motivated me to look more closely at the Prius trans-axle in detail.

A friend at the local comunity college told me the other night that they just had an older one donated to them for a training aid. I can even put it up on a lift a seriously stare at it for a while.

MJ


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

All this hybrid stuff is really wonderful but, I thought this thread was "Why an automatic transmission works and how to make it work" I still haven't seen much in this thread on how those that have linked an electric motor to an automatic transmission and made it work. Come on people, if you did it , share it. Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

rkonnen said:


> All this hybrid stuff is really wonderful but, I thought this thread was "Why an automatic transmission works and how to make it work" I still haven't seen much in this thread on how those that have linked an electric motor to an a utomatic transmission and made it work. Come on people, if you did it , share it. Inquiring minds want to know.


Well, actually the EVT used as the first stage of the hybrid systems is a great shiftless automatic transmission.
Gerhard


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

rkonnen said:


> All this hybrid stuff is really wonderful but, I thought this thread was "Why an automatic transmission works and how to make it work" I still haven't seen much in this thread on how those that have linked an electric motor to an automatic transmission and made it work. Come on people, if you did it , share it. Inquiring minds want to know.


I did it and I shared it, all you need to do is look for it. You don't expect me to retype everything just to spare you time to look for answers?

Have you even taken time to read this entire thread from start to finish?


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

Dimitri,
I did an automatic transmission search and read every post I found. I saw your post and read them. Maybe I missed something. It did not seem to be that in depth, dealing with the electronics of the trans. Also I was looking for several people to chime in with their experiences, talking about the different makes.

Maybe better to just come to your shop and see how it is done.
Richard


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

rkonnen said:


> Dimitri,
> I did an automatic transmission search and read every post I found. I saw your post and read them. Maybe I missed something. It did not seem to be that in depth, dealing with the electronics of the trans. Also I was looking for several people to chime in with their experiences, talking about the different makes.
> 
> Maybe better to just come to your shop and see how it is done.
> Richard


Richard,

I apologize for earlier tone, but your post somewhat deserved it 

There is no depth, really. Mechanical connection between electric motor and flex plate is just as simple as any other shaft coupling. As for electronics, there is no need to mess with it at all. All you need is to simulate TPS ( throttle position sensor ) with a 5K trimpot, so you can adjust shift points to whatever levels you want. Its really that simple with electronically controller auto tranny. I am amazed that more people aren't doing autos.

To keep it simple, you would want to idle the motor, which is done with another trimpot in series with throttle, to simulate slightly pressed throttle. Even better if you get Soliton1 controller, it has idle control builtin.

Don't let anyone tell you that idle wastes energy, whoever says this never seen how much current idle takes or never bothered with a simple math.

EV with auto is awesome! I would never go back to stick.


----------



## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

Another member here has been successful with his Honda conversion. His has done basically the same as Dimitri, a pot to give the proper signal to the computer.

link to his blog article: http://civicity.blogspot.com/2009/10/how-i-used-automatic-transmission-in-ev.html

MJ


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

And our miata conversions don't even need a tps signal, as the earlier ones just have a vacuum modulator that can be adjusted for shift points. Use the overdrive switch as a lockup converter switch and your done.Just mechanically connect like you would a manual transmission.
I agree with dimitri, automatics are the way to go.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

Dimitri and Mike,
Thanks, no offense taken.This is the kind of stuff I want to see. There are a lot of posts to hookup mechanically, plus I have a full machine shop so that part I have no problem with, it was the issues of making the thing run properly once assembled because of all the computerized stuff.

Mike could you elaborate more on the vacuum hookup.

Dimitri I had read on that Honda blog that he had to turn the pot down to start the car. Did you experience anything like this? "I usually leave it at about 1/4 turn, however it needs to be set to 0 every time I start up the EV because if the TPS (5k pot) is higher than 0, the transmission thinks you are stepping on the gas and will lock the Shifter into place so you cant move it from Park. Annoying, but effective safety measure. And I will not be bypassing that protocol, but if I do the transmission can easily be shifted into Neutral with the EV off, and that is a safety issue that is checked during the yearly Inspection." 
Also I would think idling the motor a bit of an advantage, the motor is already spinning and would eliminate the initial spike on spin up.

I hope someone will also talk about the power glide more in depth and hooking up an automatic with out a converter, for those that want to assemble this way.

Dimitri, still wouldn't mind visiting your shop.Only about a 45 min drive from Tampa.

Thanks,
Richard


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

When I am parked, idling takes 4-6 AMPs @ 96 volts and if I am driving and let off the pedal, it's down to 1-3 AMPs while coasting.

I love the automatic because of all the hill starts I have to do, I would need to start in first up to 15, then shift to 2nd anyways. I have a Zilla 1K-LV and if I start off in 2nd gear, there is not enough overall torque to the wheels to start off on this local hills. 

I didn't do anything special with the electrical, except for adding the 5K shift adjustment pot in place of the TPS. This part really depends on if your transmission is electronically controlled or vacuum controlled. I haven't created a manual TC lockup switch yet, but I am really tempted to.


I did find out that the transmission's PCM is connected to the car via the Fuel Pump fuse, and that took a while to figure out since I removed that fuse when I tore out the engine.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

rkonnen said:


> Dimitri I had read on that Honda blog that he had to turn the pot down to start the car. Did you experience anything like this?
> 
> Dimitri, still wouldn't mind visiting your shop.Only about a 45 min drive from Tampa.
> 
> ...


Richard, I expected that Mazda ECU will balk at non-zero TPS at startup, just like Honda's ECU, but that did not happen. Apparently Mazda ECU doesn't care what TPS value is at startup. If it did, I would simply use a NC relay driven by shifter's D position signal to short out TPS until its in D position.


I currently don't have any ongoing conversions, so I can only show you my own EV if you are interested to drive to Tampa. My conversion has been blogged in details on this forum, you can find it in conversions and builds section. Search for Mazda E-Protege....


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Richard, I expected that Mazda ECU will balk at non-zero TPS at startup, just like Honda's ECU, but that did not happen. Apparently Mazda ECU doesn't care what TPS value is at startup. If it did, I would simply use a NC relay driven by shifter's D position signal to short out TPS until its in D position.
> 
> 
> Dimitri,
> ...


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

rkonnen said:


> Dimitri,
> Quick question. I went over the wiring diagram for the transmission. I found the TPS but it also uses an engine coolant sensor. Did you have to deal with that sensor?
> Richard


Yes, I used original engine temp sensor, left it connected to ECU as it should, but to simulate proper range of resistive value expected by ECU I put a 5K trimpot in parallel with temp sensor. Then, I epoxied this temp sensor into one of Warp9 motor's lift holes. This way I killed 2 birds at once, I have a working temp gauge in my instrument cluster and also properly working ECU.


----------



## rkonnen (May 29, 2008)

dimitri said:


> Yes, I used original engine temp sensor, left it connected to ECU as it should, but to simulate proper range of resistive value expected by ECU I put a 5K trimpot in parallel with temp sensor. Then, I epoxied this temp sensor into one of Warp9 motor's lift holes. This way I killed 2 birds at once, I have a working temp gauge in my instrument cluster and also properly working ECU.


I like that idea!


----------



## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Hi all,

Great thread with lots of info thank you.

I have a few questions regarding auto boxes. About 10 years ago now I started thinking about converting a car to electric. I decided a fibreglass bodied car, RWD would be the best. I looked at the Pontiac Fiero but over here in UK they are quite expensive and LHD only. In the end I settled on a Lotus Elan (1970's model). They weigh in between 700 and 800Kgs. I wanted to remove engine and gearbox and bolt directly to the prop shaft. I knew Metricmind could supply a single reduction gearbox which I thought would enable me to get up the worst hills (slowly) and might be useful for parking. In the end, an Elan was too expensive. I could find a basket case with engine in bits for £2500 but I needed a usable car, that I could nurse along for a few years until the engine packed up and I would hopefully be in a position to convert. So, I bought a Lotus Excel. Fibreglass body, galvanised chassis rear wheel drive 4 seater weighs about 1250Kgs. My father in law pointed out they came with a ZF HP422 auto box (as well as manual) and he said the ZF gearbox was conical in design - kind of like CVT and thought they were carbon fibre gears to save weight. When I heard this I thought there may be something in it for an electric conversion. However, in Lotus, the ZF box seems to be unreliable as the owners tried manual shifting and stripped the gears, as I needed as useable, reliable 2nd car for work I eventually settled for a manual which I eventually bought 1 year ago. 

For so long I have kept an eye on EV Motor prices and keep thinking about my design - 3 Lemco pancake motors botled together, medium size DC or AC. Using small battery pack to achieve 50 mile range and keep weight down and extending range with a Honda suitcase generator in the boot/on a trailer etc. I've compared torque outputs with original engine figures, looked at weight, power and torque on a Cinqucento or Mini and tried to design to that spec so I end up with a Lotus that drives similar to a small car - this was originally quite valid when I was trying to find an old Lotus Elan (same weight's) but now I have an Excel that comparison goes out the window.

On a FAQ at Metricmind I have read that an electric car with low battery power may struggle to climb a 5-6% hill. In England that will not do, I need to be able to climb hils. So I need to keep gears and if I am going to do that, I think an automatic, preferably CVT, would be the best way to go.

So my question, does anyone know about the ZF HP422 gearbox, would it make a good conversion, would it be difficult to set up (I don't know if it works by vacum or electrically) I am not concerned whether it needs to idle or not as I see the power loss is negligible. I can get one quite cheap from my Lotus parts supplier (about £250) and it should bolt straight in. I could then utilise my clutch pedal as a regen pedal and I could use an adaptor plate as normal, simplyfying the conversion and motor mounting.

I read with interest about the Powerglide, again though over here in UK I don't think they are as common and I would have to modify chassis I suppose to mount it where as a ZF would bolt straight in.

Any advice regarding ZF-HP422?

On a side note, I read a lot of alternative energy sites and have been aware of work done by a man called John Bedini (builds amplifiers in the U.S.A) he has for a long time described a process of using a motor, an alternator and a flywheel to generate free energy and I have always thought of integrating the idea into an electric car - now before you all put your tinfoil hats on and call me weird let me explain.

I understand some of the big car manufacturers use a system on their V8's and V12's that when they are on motorway and doing motorway/freeway speeds, they shut down half the pistons and only feed fuel into the other half. This saves petrol and improves economy. I understand that to maintain a car at freeway speed only takes about 12HP. I believe the reason this works is because the vehicle has momentum. Hence all that is required, is sufficient power to maintain that momentum. Nikola Tesla uses a similar principle in his Tesla coils which we use in TV line scan transformers (I'm a broadcast engineer) basically its like a child on a swing, takes a bit of effort to get the swing going but when it is going it only takes a small push at the right time to maintain the momentum. So, why not, when the electric car is at freeway speeds, momentarily shut down the power to the motor, say for a second, then as the car starts to slow (just before) re-apply power for a second (or two) and then keep alternating like that. The way I see it, on a flat ground, with no headwind, on a warm day at X feet above sealevel etc etc you could wire up a cruise control to do this, set the cruise at the most 
efficient RPM and pulse your motor on and off, using the momentum stored in the flywheel - that is you and the cars's weight, to propel the car when power is off. It would take a bit of fiddling but I am convinved you could extend freeway driving using this method. Tesla did it, a childs swing does it and Ford GM etc do it on V series engines despite all the frictional losses in those engines.

In my design notes I call the idea 'impulse power' I know mythbusters tried to replicate the Bedini process but their science was flawed. I wrote a long explanation as to where they went wrong but when I went to their website to post it I found many other people had picked up on their flaws on many of their projects and I decided not to bother. One point, if any of you remember the episode, you may remeber they used a long wire like an antenna to gain free energy, the amount the of energy they measured was insignificant so they declared it not valid. But, that was actually proof of principle, which is an accepted idea in science. If it works on a small scale, it will work on a big scale. Also, in my opinon they should have put the wire vertically and not horizontally for better results. So they took an idea, proved it worked and then drew the opposite conclusion as the power measured was small. They were way off with their Bedini replication but thats another story.

Any thoughts?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

What you are referring to about "impulse" is what we usually call Pulse Driving. Basically you accelerate to a speed, lets says 65 MPH, then coast down to 55 and accelerate again and you improve your MPG in an ICE, or possibly increase your range in your EV.

As for 12 HP to maintain freeway speeds, forget about it. That's for a light weight, theoretical car in a perfect environment. I need about 10-15 HP to maintain 35 MPH because of hills and inclines, and my EV is a Honda Civic. 

As for the transmission, if people can strip the gears in an ICE, an electric motor will probably destroy it almost instantly. You should check and see if there are any over haul kits for it that would include stronger gears and components. Idling the motor takes extremely little power in the long run. I idle mine and I have a switch to turn off the idle when at a long traffic light to save that extra power.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I suggest you start another thread if you want to continue discussing your "impulse power" idea as it has no bearing on Automatic Gearboxes.


----------



## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I suggest you start another thread if you want to continue discussing your "impulse power" idea as it has no bearing on Automatic Gearboxes.


Sorry, but I did say it was a side note after writing extensively about ZF-HP422 Automatic gearbox. And I don't know if pulse driving will work through an auto so I thought it had some relevance.

Anyway, back to the ZF. I'm not sure if they do have carbon fibre gears unless its something Lotus specified - it was just mentioned by father in law. Also, I looked at a cutaway picture of the box and it didn't look very connical in design either so not sure he really knew what he said was true.

I guess I need to read up on how the ZF operates - thought someone with autotrans experience might give me a shortcut.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

If you want to avoid the hassle of having to connect a motor
up to a relatively weak gearbox, take a look at the Transwarp series
of motors from Netgain (they have higher-voltage motors in-the-pipeline too)
http://www.go-ev.com

These are designed to connect straight up to a propshaft
(with the right UJ - you might need to get a special prop made up)

The main drawback with going this route is you need a more powerful
motor & controller, as you don't have the mechanical advantage that
a gearbox gives (for a sports car, think of a controller like the Soliton or Zilla)

I eventually went for a "normal" Warp11 series-wound motor, coupled
to an automatic for my Supra, as I really like autos. Turned out to
be pretty easy to connect up, as the Supra tranny has an almost circular
bellhousing connecting the gearbox and engine.

HTH

Richard (electricmini)


----------



## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks Richard,

My Lotus is called a 'Plastic Supra' by many as we share lots of the same parts but I guess Toyota didn't use the ZF box for their auto?

I'v seen the Netgain at GoEV and was seriously looking at this route due to simplicity but my confidence has been shaken about Direct Drive and I'm really interested in looking at the autobox as a way to ensure driveability. 

Any special mods required to make the motor and autobox work together?


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Pi3141 said:


> Thanks Richard,
> 
> My Lotus is called a 'Plastic Supra' by many as we share lots of the same parts but I guess Toyota didn't use the ZF box for their auto?
> 
> ...


Don't know if it's the same - the Mk3 Supra's box is controlled by
a computer (using 3 solenoid valves). It also has a lockable
torque converter (the 3rd solenoid controls that)

This makes it easier to "hack", I'm planning on using an aftermarket
ecu to control it (the "Suprastick"), this will let me play with the
shifting points if I want to.

The only things I've done to the box is to connect up a small
transmission cooler (tiny radiator) as the car no longer has the
main coolant radiator. I also need to sort out something to
control the cable-operated line pressure control on the box
(my Zilla has the HEPA option, so a nice electronic throttle pedal,
so there's no mechanical linkage to attach the line pressure
control's cable to. I might not bother with it... )

Mk4 Supra's (the twin-turbo ones, 1993 on) have a 4th solenoid in the
autobox, which controls the line pressure (no mechanical linkage).
I would have preferred to use this, but the output shafts are different,
as are the speed sensors used by the ABS system. So no good for me

The main thing is to make sure the motor & gearbox are accurately
aligned - the coupler is in fact easier, as the motor shaft only has to attach
to the flexplate, which then bolts to the torque converter. So as long as
you can rig up a way to hold a flat thin plate on-centre and perpendicular
to the motor shaft, you're laughing

So far, it works just fine for going up and down my driveway
(still not finished or road-legal yet). I was planning to idle
the motor to keep the box primed, but it's not really needed - as long
as you're gentle applying the throttle when starting to move

HTH

Richard (electricmini)


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Richard,

Sounds like you are on the right track. I do have a question/suggestion for you. I'm not a transmission expert but i've been a master auto technician for over 40 years and leaving the throttle pressure out of your control scheme may be a serious error.

I can attest that doing that on some domestic transmissions will lead to failure. It will also affect the shift points on non electronic transmissions. I'm not sure if it does on any electronics, it may on some types.

I believe the line pressure control increases fluid pressure when under hard accelleration (Lots of Throttle) and lowers it when you release the throttle. 
The purpose of the is to soften the shifts at low acellerations and on decelleration and firm them up when under high power to prevent slippage. 
Since electrics have a LOT of torque at low RPM wouldn't you want to be sure that the line pressure was higher at slower speeds?

Do you know how the line pressure control works on your trans, Fully retracted is the pressure higher or lower? It could be either way.

It might be wise to either place this cable in the in the middle of it's travel and lock it down or try to attach it to your foot pedal in a manner to increase transmission pressures when the load is the highest.

If you plan to drive in a sporty fashion I would lock it at the higher pressures.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Sounds like you are on the right track. I do have a question/suggestion for you. I'm not a transmission expert but i've been a master auto technician for over 40 years and leaving the throttle pressure out of your control scheme may be a serious error.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reminder Jim, I had considered reversing the "sense" of the cable's operation (similar to what you mentioned), to better suit an electric motor's torque curve....

AFAIK, the Supra's autobox only uses the cable to directly vary line pressure in the hydraulic circuits, adjusting the shifting points is done by the ECU (using the throttle position sensor and vehicle speed signals).

Now thinking a bit more, I have a Zilla controller in the mix as well, so the motor's torque/rpm curve is a bit irrelevent - as long as I have enough voltage available,
the Zilla will put whatever current the throttle pedal commands through the motor (the Zilla's "accelerator-to-amps" feature)

So what's really important here is the motor loop current - since that's what determines the motor's torque output, and it's this torque that the autobox's clutches have to handle.
Therefore line pressure needs to vary in line with motor current, no?

Sounds like I need a special "magic box", which moves the line-pressure cable in response to motor current (not battery current).
My thoughts immediately turn to a small PIC micro circuit, producing a pulse train to control a big beefy radio-control servo.

Oh yippee, another sub-project! 

Richard


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

electricmini said:


> Thanks for the reminder Jim, I had considered reversing the "sense" of the cable's operation (similar to what you mentioned), to better suit an electric motor's torque curve....
> 
> AFAIK, the Supra's autobox only uses the cable to directly vary line pressure in the hydraulic circuits, adjusting the shifting points is done by the ECU (using the throttle position sensor and vehicle speed signals).
> 
> ...


Nearly my thoughts too. A hall effect sensor on the motor buss bar will give an analog signal. It can be done by digital or analog means. This is why I wanted to run the pump by a second motor VFD combo tied into the motor controller.


----------



## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hello all good people here!
I am doing a conversion on bigger car with zf4hp22 trans and have been thinking about possible load on motors back bearing. Torque converter is big chunk and nearest bearing in trans is on oil pump. On ice vehicle this is ok since crank is well supported but what about electric motor? I have read this thread at least once, but am too lazy to do it again. I do not remember if that has been discussed.
So you who are using automatic, do you have extra bearing in your design and if not, have you had any trouble with your motor?
Thanks, this forum has been a humongous help so far.


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

glaurung said:


> Hello all good people here!
> I am doing a conversion on bigger car with zf4hp22 trans and have been thinking about possible load on motors back bearing. Torque converter is big chunk and nearest bearing in trans is on oil pump. On ice vehicle this is ok since crank is well supported but what about electric motor? I have read this thread at least once, but am too lazy to do it again. I do not remember if that has been discussed.
> So you who are using automatic, do you have extra bearing in your design and if not, have you had any trouble with your motor?
> Thanks, this forum has been a humongous help so far.


I did not do anything different.

I used an adapter plate, the back shaft has an adapter to match the mounting holes of the flex plate... the flex plate is bolted to the torque converter.

Everything seems fine I have a few hundred miles on the car thus far.

MO


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

glaurung said:


> On ice vehicle this is ok since crank is well supported but what about electric motor?


I think electric motor's shaft support with bearings on both sides is not any worse than ICE, especially considering that it only has rotational movement and doesn't vibrate as much as ICE.

I have over 5000 miles on auto tranny, works fine so far


----------



## Mo_Bandy (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree Dimitri!

MO


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There is an old thread around here somewhere debating the bearing question. Most of us thought, and investigation backed us up, that the bearings are up to the task.


----------



## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html

two speed powerglide w/ 9" dc motor


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great idea, bit steep on the price.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Almost exactly the same route I am taking.
Powerglide with manual shift kit and shorty tail shaft.....cut the bell housing....and bolt up 11" Kostov and stuff it in the tunnel of a BMW 3 series.......perfect!!

Eric



JohnMogs said:


> http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html
> 
> two speed powerglide w/ 9" dc motor


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JohnMogs said:


> http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html
> 
> two speed powerglide w/ 9" dc motor


Well gosh and golly Here is the transmission I've been saying was the best of all worlds for a RWD EV for the last two or so years.

John, thanks for finding this. Lots of people have used a powerglide but they always seemed too DIY one off. I feel better knowing that someone has done it on a commercial basis. I wanted to but I'm just too old, poor and sick. 

A salute to those that did it.

Below is not a flame job, I think that what they did is wonderful.

Like JRP3 says it's a bit pricy.
It is a shame that they took it to the extrem (and expensive) level they did. The internal parts they used and the external pump really add to the price of a rebuilt powerglde. Better then 2/3rds of the price are in those and the case mods. It does make a nice package though.

Maybe after a bit they could offer a setup that leaves out the shorty tailshaft/planetary set and end housing. leaving the governor might also allow auto shifting.

All in all three thumbs up.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Almost exactly the same route I am taking.
> Powerglide with manual shift kit and shorty tail shaft.....cut the bell housing....and bolt up 11" Kostov and stuff it in the tunnel of a BMW 3 series.......perfect!!
> 
> Eric


Eric,

Wonderful, are you going to use a pressure pump? What mods to the valve body? keeping the cast iron valve body or going for one of the aluminium ones? Are you using the circle track pump and input shaft set up or are you making your own? Are you using the 1.82 planetary set or are you going for something taller since you are using the 11 inch Kostov. Are you using a streight Kostov or with one interpoles.

Sorry to be so full of questions, I want to do almost the same thing but my health just won't let me. I would also use a bimmer, I like benz also but they are too heavy. If you can post an ocassional picture that would be great.


----------



## JohnMogs (Dec 2, 2009)

Used powerglide = $100
Rebuild kit = $100-$500
12v Pump = $120
Book to learn powerglide $20
Upgrade parts = $?? up 2 u
Special machined adapter, hub, tail $??


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JohnMogs said:


> http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html
> 
> two speed powerglide w/ 9" dc motor


Thanks for the find!


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Almost exactly the same route I am taking.
> Powerglide with manual shift kit and shorty tail shaft.....cut the bell housing....and bolt up 11" Kostov and stuff it in the tunnel of a BMW 3 series.......perfect!!
> 
> Eric


cool...my dream is a Built High Voltage Kostov 13" into a powerglide


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Jim,
You are the one that encouraged me to pursue this setup last year. I knew it was a good idea and now this commercial product re-affirms it.
I'm an old fart with asthma and arthritis so I have to take things slow. I am also in the middle of selling my home and moving. My spare time is consumed with researching and planning my build, so the only pictures I can post would be of my notebook.

I chose Kostov because of cost and availability of multiple options including a wide range of input voltage. The 325 runs over 3200 pounds with ICE components installed.....I am guessing end product with be over 3600 even with lithium batteries. I am not looking for a rubber burning hot rod, just want the power when it is needed. So, it looked like the Kostov 11 inch could provide just the right amount. Not sure which model yet.

I have also been involved with the DIY controllers over the past year and have been introduced to the DIY charger. These have turned out to be "inexpensive" but definitely not "cheap"......real good quality and ability.

My first steps when I land in my new house will be to put together the controller and charger and get my used Powerglide and rebuild it. I have "Powerglide Transmission Handbook" (it is now dog-eared). I also wrote to Carl Munroe (the author) with the idea of Powerglide & DC Motor and he thought it was a good idea and encouraged any effort in that direction.

Whatever chassis/roller I get, I know I will need the above components first.  The good thing about the BMW 3 series is that there is a huge aftermarket which increases competition and drives prices down (Obama, are you listening?). The Mercedes was my other choice but there simply is no aftermarket and the simplest components are mega-bucks.

I am looking forward to putting this together and can't wait to get settled in my new place to get started.

Thanks for your interest, and stay well.

Eric



Jimdear2 said:


> Eric,
> 
> Wonderful, are you going to use a pressure pump? What mods to the valve body? keeping the cast iron valve body or going for one of the aluminium ones? Are you using the circle track pump and input shaft set up or are you making your own? Are you using the 1.82 planetary set or are you going for something taller since you are using the 11 inch Kostov. Are you using a streight Kostov or with one interpoles.
> 
> Sorry to be so full of questions, I want to do almost the same thing but my health just won't let me. I would also use a bimmer, I like benz also but they are too heavy. If you can post an ocassional picture that would be great.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey Demitri, I've read most all of what you have on the autos. What I'm wondering is, do you need to send a rpm signal to the computer so it can compare with the tps and provide the demand signal for the transmission? I understand the tps tells the tranny the demand, but doesnt the computer have to compare the throttle demand, motor rpm and vehicle speed to make the shifts?


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

few2many said:


> Hey Demitri, I've read most all of what you have on the autos. What I'm wondering is, do you need to send a rpm signal to the computer so it can compare with the tps and provide the demand signal for the transmission? I understand the tps tells the tranny the demand, but doesnt the computer have to compare the throttle demand, motor rpm and vehicle speed to make the shifts?


Yes, RPM , VSS and TPS are critical signals for proper TCU operation. The only difference in EV is that TPS does not have to be attached to actual throttle pedal, it's best to supply specific constant TPS signal level via a simple 5k trimpot and adjust that level until you find best shift pattern for your tranny and motor. I am using TPS = 30% in my EV, which corresponds to shifting at 3000 RPM , which works best for my Warp9 running at relatively low voltage of 128V. If I had higher voltage, which means more torque at higher RPM, then I would use higher TPS value. The idea is to run the motor at highest RPM without compromising available torque, sort of a "sweet spot".

You take shift pattern graph from your car's shop manual and draw a horizontal line at the TPS level of your choice and see where it crosses shift points. I posted my graphs either in this thread or my Protege5 build thread.

I believe my TCU also needed engine temp signal to work properly, maybe because TCU is integrated with ECU in one module. I used original temp sensor with resistor in parallel to bring the value into the range expected by normally hot ICE engine. Sensor is epoxied into lift hole on Warp9.

Hope this helps.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes it does, thanks Dimitri. It points me in the right direction and confirms a few ideas/concerns I've had.
May I ask what you think of ac regen on an auomatic? When I let off the gas pedal, the rpms of the ice drops to near idle. There isnt much compression breaking which would lead me to believe regen would be weak. I know off road and race transmission kits have a way to keep the overrun clutches engaged, for compression breaking, just not sure about my car.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I'm not a transmission expert, I'm sure others will chime in here, but my gut feeling is that regen with torque converter while its not locked is probably going to be too weak. At higher speeds when TC is locked its probably going to work same as in manual transmission, but once TC unlocks and starts slipping regen will drop.

If you chose not to idle and either remove or permanently lock TC, or use one of these powerglides, then I imagine regen will work just like in any other EV.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

few2many said:


> Yes it does, thanks Dimitri. It points me in the right direction and confirms a few ideas/concerns I've had.
> May I ask what you think of ac regen on an auomatic? When I let off the gas pedal, the rpms of the ice drops to near idle. There isnt much compression breaking which would lead me to believe regen would be weak. I know off road and race transmission kits have a way to keep the overrun clutches engaged, for compression breaking, just not sure about my car.


Few,

The lock up clutch of the torque converter could be applied during deceleration to give regerneration. Modern transmissions have all shifting and clutch applications controlled by electric solenoids. It even could be an advantage because application can be controlled to match varing battery and driving conditions.


----------



## gwartnet (Feb 4, 2010)

Over the last few days I've read through all these posts. 

I believe the consensus is that EV conversions using automatics are not only possible, but perhaps desirable. It makes for a better driving experience, just like ATs for ICEs. There may be a cost for convenience. If so, it seems to be fairly negligible, especially if your torque converter locks in 3rd gear or higher and, just like with an ICE, you don't have a lot of stops and starts. But even so, the implementation method may reduce this cost.

Per this thread, there are really 3 directions to take when considering an AT for your EV.
1) Using a different Transmission (powerglide)
2) Using stock transmission
3) Using stock transmission, but permanently locking or removing the Torque Converter.

I would like to ask those that have contributed throughout the course of this thread to chime in where appropriate, but here is how I've seen the arguments / explanations.

1) Different transmission
The advantages of using a different transmission are:
- you can pick a transmission that can work optimally with your set up / rear end ratio;
- you may be able to operate the transmission with manual gear selection; and
- you can choose a lighter / shorter transmission because you only really need 2-3 gears.
- because a lot of these are geared to the racing crowd, there is a lot of information available and the heavy duty nature would likely hold up well under the low RPM / high torque characteristics of an electric motor.

Disadvantages:
- extra expense of buying / overhauling the transmission
- some of these are quite expensive because they are geared to the racing crowd
- only works with RWD cars
- probably need an auxiliary pump (assuming no / locked Torque Converter) 

2) Stock transmission
I think that the methods of Dimitri and TheSGC are pretty well documented and explained several times over the course of this thread.

The advantages are pretty obvious. It seems to be a whole lot less work.
Other advantages are that, whether vacuum or electronically controlled, higher shift rpms are pretty easily achievable. As far as accessories go, with a double ended motor, you can pretty easily turn a power steering pump, AC compressor, etc. Also you can use a front wheel drive car. Other than the electronic or vacuum control determination, the variance in designs between ATs is largely negligible because you are kind of mimicking the ICE.

Potential disadvantages include the fact that you need to idle the motor to keep the TC pressurized. This energy loss appears to be pretty small, however, and would obviously diminish if your driving is highway vs. city.
There was also some talk about the additional rotational weight of the TC being a disadvantage. I think this goes hand in hand with flywheel debates in standard transmissions.

There was some talk too about not idling the motor--that the lag in repressurizing the TC at start up is negligible. Others have said that it the TC kicked in rough if they tried this. I don't know if you would need an auxiliary pump. I guess this depends on the design of the AT.

Finally, some claim that the heat produced by the AT primarily comes from the TC, so that you need more fluid and a cooler.

One concern I have that has not really been addressed is the longevity of such an endeavor. If my stock ICE's transmission turns at 2500-3000 RPMs at highway driving, what is the long term effect of turning that same transmission at 3800-4200 RPMs (if that's right) on a continuous basis.


3) Using stock transmission, but permanently locking or removing the Torque Converter.
This is the category that I really started this post for, because I think that this idea has been watered down among the other discussions. There are some posts about how to modify the TC so that it is always fixed. There are some posts that claim that without the TC, the transmission operates completely normal. There seems to be a disagreement about how a car without a TC would actually drive.
On the one hand, the TC provides some dampening so that shifting at low gears (high gear ratios) feels smoother. But some say that not using it provides a negligible difference in comfort.
The recent regen discussion makes apparent that the lack of TC is better for effective regen.

I guess I'd like to know more about NOT using a TC. What are some real world regrets either way? How much does individual AT design come into play with regard to drivability and conversion when not using a TC?

Thanks.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I think removing the TC is transmission dependent. Some transmission, like Powerglids and some GMs don't heavily rely on the TC as do others like Honda.

My TC weighs about 40 lbs with ATF in it, and maybe 30lbs dry. It's a heavy beast but it is also the flywheel setup for the Civic.

As for maintaining higher RPMs, most transmissions have safe gaurds to control it. My Civic's auto uses the TC to control ATF pressure in the transmission.

And finally, REGEN with an automatic: short story, don't do it. You will probably burn out the clutches real fast because there were not designed to engine brake. One my transmission, the only time there is a solid connection that can go back to the motor is when I am in 3rd and the TC locks up. Once I drop to 20 MPH the TC unlocks and motor RPM drops to what ever I am idling at.

I am little experience with GM vehicles, but with the Mazda's and Honda's in our house that are Automatic there is no engine braking at all.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> And finally, REGEN with an automatic: short story, don't do it. You will probably burn out the clutches real fast because there were not designed to engine brake. One my transmission, the only time there is a solid connection that can go back to the motor is when I am in 3rd and the TC locks up. Once I drop to 20 MPH the TC unlocks and motor RPM drops to what ever I am idling at.
> 
> I am little experience with GM vehicles, but with the Mazda's and Honda's in our house that are Automatic there is no engine braking at all.


I don't understand this. I've often used down shifting and engine braking on automatics, and the transmission in my RAV4 automatically down shifts from overdrive when I hit the brakes.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> I don't understand this. I've often used down shifting and engine braking on automatics, and the transmission in my RAV4 automatically down shifts from overdrive when I hit the brakes.


The gears down shift to keep optimum gear for giving power to the wheels. When you let off your gas, watch your RPM. It will most likely go down to 6-700 RPMs for idling, unless you are on the highway and the TC is locked and you will see your RPMS slowly drop until your TC unlocks (Probably 20-25 MPH), then it will drop to idle.

In my Civic EV I can have my shift points set to pretty high, I can use first gear up to 22 MPH. An example is when I am driving to about 15 MPH, then let off the pedal to coast in the parking lot the motor drops back to idle, then when I go to accelerate, I have to wait for the motor to spin back up before I can go any faster.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Definitely not the way any automatic I've driven behaves. Down shifting slows the vehicle and RPMS go up.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Definitely not the way any automatic I've driven behaves. Down shifting slows the vehicle and RPMS go up.


Maybe it's car dependent? I did notice on my mom's Mazda MPV the engine will rev a little during downshift to match RPMs, then drop back to idle while the car is coasting. 

I wish I had a tach setup on my EV to get more information than just hearing the transmission whine.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

When I let off the gas pedal in my automatic car (possible ev donor), the RPMs drop to just above idle and the car will coast with no, or at least no noticeable engine braking. This is at any gear or speed.


----------



## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Anyone ever thought about (or know of) these?

http://www.getrag.de/en/1090

They have one working (2 speed) in a smart twofour.

Maybe we can see about getting one that will mate easily with existing popular motors? 

And they say it possible to have all wheel electric drive! yeay ...


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2010)

dimitri said:


> Jim,
> 
> I followed your instructions, drained 2 quarts of ATF, set it in idle, measured, poured some back, measured again.... I am at proper level now, with about 1.5 quarts left. So, yes, it was severely overfilled
> 
> ...


I'm using a Kelly with Warp9. It works great.

Jack Rickard


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I have just done my first test drive in my Mazda Metro EV. It has a 3 speed auto box with the torque converter removed.

I am getting a major bang noise when it changes gear. There seems to be a fair bit of play in the drive train and I'm not sure that's normal. Thought it might be loose engine mounts but no luck there.

Has anybody any ideas?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

mcudogs said:


> I have just done my first test drive in my Mazda Metro EV. It has a 3 speed auto box with the torque converter removed.
> 
> I am getting a major bang noise when it changes gear. There seems to be a fair bit of play in the drive train and I'm not sure that's normal. Thought it might be loose engine mounts but no luck there.
> 
> Has anybody any ideas?


What model transmission are you using and do you have any pictures of your coupling setup?

I used to have banging when I didn't idle my transmission and drove off. The transmission would spin up, ATF pump would engage then first gear would engage would a thump and I would be off. I also had it bang once when I went from 3rd gear w/TC locked into 4th gear. I never use 4th gear, I went into it by mistake and I didn't think anything of it until now. 

Maybe the TC somehow absorbs the shock when changing gears because there is so much play in the transmission? There will be a lot more play than a manual because fluid does a lot of the transmission connections where a manual is all gears and rods. The only transmission I know of that can safely be used without the TC is the Powerglides, but not much about others. 

Make sure your axles are seated correctly into the transmission, check your ATF levels and make sure your ATF filter is clean, and if you haven't already, changed the ATF fluid. According to my Honda manual, bad ATF fluid equals crappy shifting and slipping.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> I have just done my first test drive in my Mazda Metro EV. It has a 3 speed auto box with the torque converter removed.
> 
> I am getting a major bang noise when it changes gear. There seems to be a fair bit of play in the drive train and I'm not sure that's normal. Thought it might be loose engine mounts but no luck there.
> 
> Has anybody any ideas?


mcudogs,

Sounds like the transmission has a mis adjusted or disconnected throttle pressure control system and might be in full throttle (kick down) mode.


Does the transmission have one of the following:

A vacuum modulator. This is a unit on the transmission that had a vacuum line from the ICE carb or throttle body connected to it.
A cable operated throttle pressure control. This would be a cable that went from the ICE throttle linkage to the transmission.
If the trans has either one of those let me know and we might figure a way to correct the hard shifts.

Jim


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Jim,

Yes it does have a vacuum modulator that is currently disconnected. It also has a kick down switch mounted on the throttle which is connected to a kick down solenoid in the transmission.

Do you think connecting the vacuum inlet to my brake vacuum pump might help?

Don


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Yes it does have a vacuum modulator that is currently disconnected. It also has a kick down switch mounted on the throttle which is connected to a kick down solenoid in the transmission.
> 
> ...


Don,

A QUALIFIED YES.

But it is not the total answer. 

The function of the vacuum modulator is to vary the transmission system pressure in relation to the throttle and engine vacuum. When the throttle is mostly closed in an ICE, the engine vacuum is high and power produced by the engine is low, the vacuum modulator will lower the system pressure and slow down and soften the clutch engagement giving soft comfortable shifts. With the throttle wide open engine vacuum is low, engine power is highand the transmission system pressure is high and you will get fast hard shifts. 

The kick down just forces a downshift. Depending on the transmission design the kick down only occures when other transmission parameters are met. Electrics vehicles that have high torque at low rpm so I would disconnect this.

In order for the vacuum modulator system to work properly you would need a valve that would vary the vacuum applied dependant on throttle position. You don't want to leave the system pressure high. Not only are the high pressure shifts uncomfortable but could cause shock damage if continued. Conversly you dont want to apply high vacuum all the time, this will lead to clutch slippage. I don't know if the vacuum modulator on this transmission is adjustable. If it is you might be able to lower the system pressure enough to reach a mid point.

Another suggestion is to use a regulator valve and apply vacuum to the modulator adjusting the applied vacuum until you reach a comfortable shift then also connect some sort of dump system hooked up to the kick down switch so the trans will apply full presssure when you apply full throttle.

The ideal system would be to rig up a cable operated throttle pressure control like that used in later model transmissions. 

Be careful while you are doing these adjustments, the clutch packs can be fragile and glaze up if too much slippage occures.

I recommend that you find a good transmission man who is familiar with these older vacuum modulator transmissions and is willing to help in experimentations. See if you can't find a happy medium

Another thought is to see if there isn't a later model of your EV that used a cable modulated transmissionn and swap it out.

Hopes tis information helps,
Jim


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the advice Jim, you are a legend.

It does have an adjustment for the modulator but it involves selecting the length of the diaphragm rod according to the dimension between the vacuum throtle valve and the outside of the case. I suppose you can get different length rods to suit.

I will connect the modulator straight to the vacuum circuit with the wheels off the ground just to see if it fixes the hard shifting. If it does I will see if I can find an old style transmission expert to give me a hand.

Don


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

This may help, look inside the vacuum hose connection tube on the modulator-many times there is a small adjustment screw in there. When we do a mazda miata automatic conversion, if the original modulator does not have the screw, we install a replacement as most aftermarket replacement ones do. Then, adjust screw so it gives smooth shifts, _and _adjust so that it is in the best gear for the speed you mostly drive in (use ameter to tell). We found that at 40 mph, third gear was better than 2nd-even though the motor is more efficient at higher rpm, the torque of the motor at lower rpm (3rd gear) made up for it. At 40 mph (our most common speed) in 3rd we can run at 60 amps, but in 2nd it was 90 amps. Very important to adjust for your parameters. Oh, this is with full vacuum at the modulator, very large adjustment is available with that screw, so that no vacuum regulator should be required. And disconnect the kickdown switch- because of the torque curve and back EMF, acceleration will fall off if rpm is high..
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Mike,

Thanks for bringing that up. I didn't mention it in my original response because I didn't know for sure if Mazda used a pin adjustible, screw adjustable or non adjustible modulator.

That is why I recommended a trans guy familiar with that trans. 

The trans tech can put a pressure guage on the line pressure port of the trans and adjust it correctly the first time. I didn't want to be responsible for someone turning the screw the wrong way or putting in the wrong pin and burning up a clutch pack.

Lastly, if they tap the brake vacuum system they should make sure there is a check valve in the line (and maybe a small reservoir between check valve and modulator) so vacuum doesn't fall off when the brakes are applied.

Jim


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks guys, I did a quick test tonight with full vacuum applied to the modulator and the wheels off the ground. All gear changes were smooth. 

I will have a look at the modulator to see if it has the screw if not I will have a look at an aftermarket replacement.

Thanks a lot for your assistance.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

This thread has made quite an impression on me. I'd like to keep my options open whether I go with manual or automatic car at this point. I'm currently researching 90s Honda cars for a possible conversion and am wondering whether a Honda automatic transmissions will be as easy to adapt as the transmission in the car that Dimitri has done.
Does anyone have knowledge of Honda automatic transmissions from early to mid 90s Civics or Mid to late 90s Accords, such that they can identify whether Dimitri's approach would work of having a selectable RPM-based gear change?


----------



## jehan12413 (Feb 4, 2010)

I know this is off topic, but worth mentioning if you are going to use a honda. They turn in the opposite direction from most other cars so make sure you have a motor that turns CCW or is reversable.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

My 1996 Honda Civic EV is an auto and it was extremely easy to use the transmission. I do have an RPM shift point adjuster, its a potentiometer that replaces the original TPS. 

I am quite pleased with my EV and this week it becomes my full time commuter. Read through my blog in my signature for way too many details and what I did right and wrong with my Civic.


----------



## PROFGOBELI (Mar 25, 2008)

Hi
Sorry if this is obvious to all but : read entire thread and saw no reference to another reason why AT better than standard. NO THRUST on EV motor from clutch actuation (if retained). A pressure plate that takes 800 # at throwout bearing to release presses on crankshaft with 800 # every time you push the pedal. That's why the thrust bearing surfaces on main bearings wear much faster in a standard car than an AT. Later.
Dick


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Not quite. The pressure plate applies the approx 800# of clamping force to the flywheel, the assembly its bolted to. It is clamping force, not forward loading force. It does not apply this pressure directly to the thrust bearings. Only the clutch sees that amount of pressure. Only the throw out bearing actually pushes forward against the thrust bearings. If you look at the inside of a pressure plate, all you see is machanical advantage. The throw out bearing pushes on the long side of a lever a good distance. Then, the short side of the lever moves a short distance with higher pressure. Youre foot may move easily for several inches on the clutch pedal, but the pressure plate itself moves what, 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Few2many

I am afraid I disagree there, the load on the clutch release bearing is resisted by the thrust bearing, so the thrust bearing sees the 1,800N force


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The clamping force on a clutch is provided either by coil springs or a big 'belville washer' spring with long finger like levers on the inner edge.

The force on the clutch plate is resisted by the cover and the retaining bolts.

The release bearing acts on the long end of a lever, either an actual lever or the fingers of the belville washer, and so does not have the same loads on it as the clutch plate. This gives it a large mechanical advantage. The reaction to the load is still taken by the clutch cover.

Further mechanical advantage then comes from the rest of the system up to the pedal.

If the release bearing had to withstand the same loads as the clutch plate then it would need to be much more robust and wouldn't last as long. Also the bearing only has to carry the load for the period of a gear shift, unless the driver likes leaving the vehicle in gear when stopped in an ICE.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The clamping force on a clutch is provided either by coil springs or a big 'belville washer' spring with long finger like levers on the inner edge.
> 
> The force on the clutch plate is resisted by the cover and the retaining bolts.
> 
> ...


 So, agreee/disagree with the thrust bearings in the engine taking all the force of the pressure plate? I say no because the pressure plate is only clamping force on the clutch to the flyweel. Actual thrust force is from the throw out bearing and is greatly reduced due to the machanical advantage of the pressure plate(the little fingers)


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Today I tried to connect a 12vdc pump to the auto box high pressure port to keep the clutches engaged when the motor is not turning. The set up is 
tee piece in transmission cooler return line - input of 12vdc pump. 
Output of pump - input non return valve.
Output of non return valve - pressure switch and high pressure test port of auto box.

When the pressure at the high pressure port drops below 50 psi the switch turns on and the pump operates keeping the pressure above 50 psi when the motor is not turning.

Unfortunately this doesnt keep the clutch engaged and I still get a a short delay and a clunk when I take off.

It looks like I am feeding the fluid in at the wrong point. Does anybody know where would be the best point to feed the fluid in. It also has another pressure test point at the governor. Would that be a better point to connect to?


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

What type of auto trans is it? 
You wouldnt use the oil cooler port port, thats not really the pressure port to the clutches. You would want to use the pump test port, the one you connect to to check the trans pressures as the auto is used and shifts through the gears. Whichever one that may be on you're trans.
Also, I like the previous suggestions of using the traction motor to idle with a few amps, so there wont be any other added weight of motors ect.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

It's a Mazda 3 speed hydraulically controlled transmission. I have connected the output of the pump to the high pressure test port of the box. The connection from the cooler port is to provide fluid to the input of the pump.

The weight of the pump is only 2kg. I have removed the torque converter to increase the efficiency of the gear box, so I can't idle the motor.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

in that case, a high pressure, high volume hydraulic resevoir might be usefull. It would fill with presure through a check vave when primmed, the release when the pressure got to a lower set point, or when you began to press the accellerator. I belive it was mentioned earlier in thread.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> It's a Mazda 3 speed hydraulically controlled transmission. I have connected the output of the pump to the high pressure test port of the box. The connection from the cooler port is to provide fluid to the input of the pump.
> 
> The weight of the pump is only 2kg. I have removed the torque converter to increase the efficiency of the gear box, so I can't idle the motor.


It sounds to me like you are trying to draw oil for your electric pump through the transmission pump gears which is the source for the oil cooler, that won't work. 

You need to source the suction side of your electric pump from the pan through the electric pump and then into the high pressure port. You may need a check valve to prevent back flow through the electric pump once the main pump starts when the electric motor starts.

You might need to tap a tube into the pan to do this. Be sure that if you do either filter the oil or position your tube so that it doesn't pick oil (and dirt) up right from the bottom of the pan. Be sure to consider the angles you might run into if you encounter a hill where a stop is required.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Fewtoomany,

I cant use an accumulator to store high pressure fluid because it changes the fluid level in the transmission too much.

Jim,

One other thing I have in the cooling loop is an aftermarket oil cooler that holds about 1/2 litre of transmission fluid. The inlet to the pump comes from the lower outlet of the cooler. I can see what you mean, if I suck fluid from that point it will create a lower and lower pressure until eventually there is no flow through the 12vdc pump. I will see if I can fit an outlet to the oil pan just above the bottom. Is there some sort of filter available that can work with atf?

Don


----------



## KLRxSuicide (Oct 18, 2010)

Another pro for the auto trans is the vast number or auto transaxles out there that can be easily modified to replace the current "standard" vw transmission for rear engine/rwd and front engine/fwd simply by locking out the stearing arms.


----------



## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

> ...and front engine/fwd simply by locking out the stearing arms.


Man I've read that statement over and over and don't know what you mean by "locking the steering arms". I have an old VW Passat with an automatic trans so I'm very interested any time I see "easily" next to "VW transaxle". Care to share more details?

JR


----------



## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

JR,

The reference to locking the steering arms is regarding the use of an FWD transaxle and suspension assembly in an RWD configuration. In order to maintain correct rear wheel alignment, one would use an adjustable trailing/leading arm from the steering arm on the the spindle to the chassis to lock the wheels in a straight-ahead position. Obviously, you wouldn't want to do this in an FWD situation.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> Fewtoomany,
> 
> I cant use an accumulator to store high pressure fluid because it changes the fluid level in the transmission too much.
> 
> ...


Don,

Sorry to be so slow in getting back to you.

I can only tell you, you will need to experiment to find a filter. Take your pump and a dish pan filled with ATF, put the suction side in the fluid and try different fuel (or other type) filters until you find one that allows a good flow good. You can also try the suction side if you prefer. As far as a pickup point for fluid I would remove the pan and have a piece of tubeing brased into the side with a 1/4 inch gap above the floor of the pan if you add it to the side of the pan. If you need to install it in the bottom of the pan set the opening of the pipe 1/4 inch up into the Pan.

There are compression packing type fittings that can also be used if you can find them.

What ecer you will do you will most liklet need to remove the pan so if the tans has a filter change, it while the pan is off.

Good luck, let us know how it works out, by the way what type of pump are you using? It should be able to maintain at least 40 PSI with a decent volumn of flow.

Jim


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Or go to the local autozone, pepboys or the like and pick up the in-line trans filter kit. You can also get the remote oil filter kit and use it for the trans.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Don,
> 
> Sorry to be so slow in getting back to you.
> 
> ...


Jim,

I am using a high pressure fuel pump. I put it under test pumping ATF for 4 hours continuous to make sure it would take the load. It produces a pressure of 80 psi. I have now done a test using a container of atf feeding the inlet of the pump and it seems to work OK. The pump turns on for about 1/2 second every 5 seconds.

Don


----------



## Alexander_B (Oct 19, 2010)

heh, 1/2 sec every 5 seconds, thats ok, maybe a small buffer would make it more like 2 seconds, 20 seconds, etc.. perhaps thats better for the pump motor?


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Thats a pretty good result, I honestly didnt think a fuel pump would do well with the thicker atf. My only concern would be the frictiom material in suspended in the fluid taking the pump out, as the pump is meant for thin, clean gas.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I know this is a bit general but can a typical modern ecu controlled autobox be adapted to shift manually? ie a simple custom controller built to switch the solenoid valves in the correct sequence to effect shifts etc?


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Depends on the transmission. The aftermarket Has made plenty of stand alone controllers for hotrod swaps. There is even a remote controlled F1 paddle style manual shifter for the GM 4l80e trans.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

you can use a 700r4 GM trans. they came as part of the 3rd gen camaro and it is not computer controlled for shifting.


----------



## Alexander_B (Oct 19, 2010)

but otherwise, yes, its that easy, you'd need a microcontroller, some external components (transistors, mostly) and some code, and thats pretty much all the swap-on boxes you can buy are.


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks guys. I'm looking at modifying a bmw e36 autobox to a manual padle shift type setup. I'm guessing at being able to control the valves manually and find the right combinations by trial and error. probably more error. plan is to couple up a motor and box on the bench and start trying various connections.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

No need to guess, get the shop manual, in trasmission troubleshooting section you will find a table which lists all solenoid states for any given gear.

Its not technically difficult to design a simple controller to drive a handful of solenoids based on some inputs, such as paddle or RPM/speed, whatever. I was planning to do this until I found that my OEM ECU/TCU works just fine as is, once I simulated correct input signals.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Also be aware that many electronic automatic transmissions control system pressure electronically through PWM solenoids, and change that pressure to control shift "feel".

Get a workshop manual if possible, if you can't find/get one, I have a few online resources that might allow me to get what information you need. 

Be aware also there may be more then one transmission used in your year model depending on engine and other criteria.

Jim


----------



## Alexander_B (Oct 19, 2010)

thats the other option, but this requires keeping the ecu, wich makes the engine worth a lot less to sell off again. up to the individual user to descide.  and yes, the shop manual lists the solenoid positions, probably also what the signals should be for the ecu, and a 1000 other things about the car, so yes, worth getting, even if only for 'free' of a certain website with a certain privateer boat in a certain coastal area in the logo.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Jimdear hit it dead on. The valves dont only control the shifts anymore. They control line prssure, shift points and have to be carefully tuned so you dont blow up the trans or burn out the clutches.


----------



## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

awesome thread! subscribing so I can see any updates on TC-less builds!


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

I have a 1990 Pontiac Grand Am LE that has a THM125C/3T40 automatic transaxle in it. I am thinking about converting it to an EV, and have read this thread from the beginning. I'm still looking for the specs and shifting information about that transmission, but I want to know if anyone that has posted here has a car with that kind of transmission, and how I can figure out the shift points to keep the AT working like it would with its ICE still in place. I also would like it to be able to keep the kickdown when you want to pass. I'll edit this post if i can come up with any more ques.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

skeeterb said:


> I also would like it to be able to keep the kickdown when you want to pass.


Since my AT has manual shift mode ( sport mode ) I have been wondering if kickdown in EV would do any good. Theoretically it does not make sense with electric motors, especially with DC motor due to limited top RPM. Well, my testing has confirmed the theory  there is no practical gain in acceleration, perhaps a tiny bit, but not worth running the motor at top RPM with the risk of splattering the motor. My top RPM is clamped by Soliton1 controller, so I am not worried, but the kickdown gain is too little to be useful, IMHO. Maybe other trannies/motors would have different results, I'm just reporting my personal observations in my Mazda Protege5.


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Since my AT has manual shift mode ( sport mode ) I have been wondering if kickdown in EV would do any good. Theoretically it does not make sense with electric motors, especially with DC motor due to limited top RPM. Well, my testing has confirmed the theory  there is no practical gain in acceleration, perhaps a tiny bit, but not worth running the motor at top RPM with the risk of splattering the motor. My top RPM is clamped by Soliton1 controller, so I am not worried, but the kickdown gain is too little to be useful, IMHO. Maybe other trannies/motors would have different results, I'm just reporting my personal observations in my Mazda Protege5.


Hrmm, ok I guess I will have to leave out that kickdown for passing. I haven't found the specs, but I found a book about my transmission. I have to save a little $$ to get it off amazon, but hopefully it will give me some of the specs I want to be able to keep the stock shift points (or close to it) for my '90 GA. I had a web site that I had on geos***y before yahoo closed it down about some of the stuff I was doing to get it (my GA) back roadworthy. With it being a early 90s model GM car, how much of the tranny is computer controlled? I have the Haynes and Chilton Manuals, but they are very limited in the spec information I need.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since the E motor will probably have a different power curve than the ICE you may not want to keep the stock shift points at all.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

I was thinking on the lazy side and thought it might be ok to buy an auto already set up so i linked to http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html which is supposed to have a good product.
my problem is that i can't get any reply from them via e-mail and/or phone. are they for real? if they are has anyone ever bought and used one?


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

After I made my last post with the question about the transmission and how much is computer controlled, I found in my Haynes manual a wiring diagram for the 1990 2.3L wiring harnesses. Looking at the image I found that the TCC and 2nd, and 3rd gears are controlled by the computer. The computer gets the VSS and TPS info also, so I will have to probably come up with a way to get those 2 bits of information so my computer with work right and give me proper shifting. But the thing is when my ICE started acting up because of HV leakage, it got to a point where you had to almost FORCE the transmission to shift, but after replacing the housing and coil packs the shifting went back to a proper pattern. I guess the leaking HV was making it not get the right information to the ECU to make it not want to shift right. I'm interested in converting that little blue GA to EV. my EVGA.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

VSS comes from transmission itself, so that stays as it is. It also has to use RPM signal somehow, look for it in the diagram, it can be referenced as crankshaft sensor, but its signal tells the tranny when to shift based on RPM.

TPS is the key to shift patterns. In ICE its tied to the pedal, but in EV, you replace it with a 5k trimpot, adjust it to desired shift pattern and leave it in that single position forever.


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

oh ok, so I just need a 5K trimpot to fake the throttle position sensor input and a RPM sensor on the EM to get RPM info to the ECU to tell the transmission when to shift. Now about pressurizing the AT to be able to get it to shift properly. I read in earlier post about how it keeps pressure when like stopped at a red light, but how long would it take to get the AT hydraulic pressure up to spec without adding an external pump or idling the EM.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Keep in mind that RPM sensor must reproduce OEM pattern, so TCU will recognize it and translate to proper RPM reading. I had to make 35 tooth disk and use OEM sensor to reproduce OEM signal. You might be able to salvage these from your ICE.

As for AT pressure, I just idle mine, I don't see a problem with it. Waste of power is negligible compared to power levels involved while driving, no sense to worry about it IMHO.


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

I probably could get a RPM cam from a dead engine. I know of a few nearby junkyards I probably could go to in order to get a dead 2.3L Quad 4 engine to obtain the cam to get the RPM information/


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

dimitri said:


> Since my AT has manual shift mode ( sport mode ) I have been wondering if kickdown in EV would do any good. Theoretically it does not make sense with electric motors, especially with DC motor due to limited top RPM. Well, my testing has confirmed the theory  there is no practical gain in acceleration, perhaps a tiny bit, but not worth running the motor at top RPM with the risk of splattering the motor. My top RPM is clamped by Soliton1 controller, so I am not worried, but the kickdown gain is too little to be useful, IMHO. Maybe other trannies/motors would have different results, I'm just reporting my personal observations in my Mazda Protege5.


I've read that one of the unusual things to get used to when driving an EV with a DC motor was that to pass you actually wanted to shift UP to lower the RPM of the motor to get into its higher torque region. I've always wanted to experience it but haven't had the chance. My rig is a fixed gear setup.


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> I've read that one of the unusual things to get used to when driving an EV with a DC motor was that to pass you actually wanted to shift UP to lower the RPM of the motor to get into its higher torque region. I've always wanted to experience it but haven't had the chance. My rig is a fixed gear setup.


I tried this too. Its a good theory, but lowering RPM to get more torque and flooring the throttle immediately makes battery and/or controller a power bottleneck. So, unless you have plenty of battery/controller power left when you start the pass, this doesn't do any good.

I found, at least in my car, that letting AT do its thing gives me optimal performance across entire range of speed/RPM. Battery is always my limiting factor, so there is no point in messing with gears.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Thank you for the feed back Dimitri. I didn't think about the other limiting factors so that is good to know.


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

I've been conferring with members of another forum that I am a member of. In this thread on the Grand Am Owner's Club, http://www.gaownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1808428, I've found out that the Pontiac THM125C/3T40 Automatic Transaxle is not completely controlled by the computer. The only real function that is controlled by the PCM is the TCC lockup. The transmission is controlled by a varied vacuum to control the shifting profile.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

if you want a cheap non computer controlled automatic transmission then pick up a gm 700r4 - it has 3 speeds and an overdrive. NOTHING COMPUTER CONTROLLED ABOUT IT. want to change the shift points - it's easy - they shift at setable rpm speeds.


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm not sure that transmission would work with a 1990 Grand Am. The ATs that come with the 1988 - 1995 GAs are the 3T40 (3 Speed w/ Overdrive) and the 4T60E (4 Speed w/ Overdrive) for 1996 and later Grand Ams. I'd probably have to use a microcontroller circuit to drive the shift points for the transmission for the 3T40. Use the uC to control bleed valves to vary the amount of vacuum for different speeds. I have been playing with the Microchip 16F690 microcontroller for a while and have designed different kinds of programs that use a switches and the Analog/Digital Converter to control different aspects of the circuit. The VSS would send a varied electrical signal that I could use to control the way that the bleed valves would open to control the amount of vacuum to shift from one gear to another. and it could also control the TCC lockup when it reaches a set speed also.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

ok i see you are looking at a transaxel. but once you get into the 95 years i think you start to get computer controlled.
i wanted to use my 700r4 with the torque converter replacement system these guys have at http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html but they don't answer the phone and don't return e-mail requrest.
i like simple too - and the trans is a work horse and no electronics and the speedo is the same - so you can set it for the size wheels and tires and just enjoy.
good luck


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> ok i see you are looking at a transaxel. but once you get into the 95 years i think you start to get computer controlled.
> i wanted to use my 700r4 with the torque converter replacement system these guys have at http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html but they don't answer the phone and don't return e-mail requrest.
> i like simple too - and the trans is a work horse and no electronics and the speedo is the same - so you can set it for the size wheels and tires and just enjoy.
> good luck


Wow! The guys that modified the power glide did it right, in fact it looks just like the glide I posted about here a couple of years ago. It would be a simple matter to solenoid shift this unit to get around the required voltage weakening problem we have with AC motors at high RPMs. Glides can be very strong and have been used with many high horsepower ICE racing motors. A lot of people that put their electric motor on a manual transmission wind up only using two gears in every day driving.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

you are right - but they don't seem to communicate with anyone i have ever communicated with.
do you know how they are working the torgue converter replacement? i would love to see plans for that.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> you are right - but they don't seem to communicate with anyone i have ever communicated with.
> do you know how they are working the torgue converter replacement? i would love to see plans for that.


Typically the input shaft of the transmission is re-engineered to connect to the motor hub. In this case the pump drive tangs get attached to the hub adapter. some people have cut apart the converter to get the female spline part. This requires retention of the bell housing and adds length. The Powerglide unit they show has a fresh-sheet input shaft. The stator reaction spline is no longer needed so they have fabbed up a new front pump cover and a new input shaft in their conversion. Some people leave off the auxiliary electric pump but I like it. With a Corvette style independent rear axle on could have a rear gear set, transmission, and electric motor all in one chunk bolted to the frame. As a drive train module that would be slick and trick. I hear the later corvettes have gone to a manual transmission on the front of the rear diff just to improve front-to-rear weight distribution. White Zombie has his motors up front but he doesn't use a clutch of transmission and he uses a solid ford 9" to run the quarter in the tens at 126 MPH. If you had all the trick gear he has you wouldn't need a transmission either.


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

Very enlightening thread, congratulations to all involved. A few ideas that may or may not be feasible:
With an electronic control transmission, if the converter is eliminated the pump could still be driven at low speed when needed by releasing one of the clutch pack solenoids, which one depends on transmission type. This way the box effectively drops into neutral allowing the motor to turn slowly and keep the oil pumped for quick clutch operation. As soon as take off is required a microswitch is activated to reenergize the clutch pack solenoid and a momentary delay is set in place before the motor powers up to avoid clutch flare and some sort of lock out circuit for the solenoid dropout if the motor revs are higher than say 500rpm. This way full regen would be available and the necessity for additional pumps would be eliminated and no wasted energy within the torque converter turning valuable amps into oil heat.
The other idea involves replacing the vacuum modulator on older style transmissions with a gear driven modulator pin and a position and turn counter so the pin could be screwed in or out as required. 
Still trying to get my head around pin position for each operation:
It would need to be all the way in for take off due to motor torque but part way out on shifts to soften the upshift engagement
In on regen to stop clutch pack slip but out when down shift points are reached to avoid harsh down shifts but of course that wold delay the down shift
All the way out when rolling to a stop to avoid the savage low gear selection on an unsuspecting drive train (C4's were shockers for that). 
That would be a very busy servo motor, no wonder they used a simple vacuum diaphragm. 

T1 Terry


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Has anyone came across a ZF 5HP18 automatic? I'm embarking on new project (bmw 328) which is an auto and i'd like to use it. I have some diagrams which show the 9 pin connector and i think 6 valves , a temp sensor and a pressure regulator.


----------



## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Jack, can you post or PM the diagrams you have? I will attempt to make sense, otherwise there is someone with the required sense .

Dawid


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

This is all awesome information for sure! I am on the fence on whether to go Manual or auto.. 

Although, through reading this thread.. I have noticed that most people are only using 2 of the gears in any of the transmissions being used. Being that weight is a hindrance to any EV project and we strive to keep weight to a minimum (thus the fact that most projects are smaller vehicles) to assists in our efforts for longer distance out of our projects.. 

I have been leaning more toward the 2 speed GM Powerglide auto. They are older trannys and not many people that aren’t Gear Heads wouldn’t remember when those were the tranny of choice for Hot Rodders.. 

I would have thought by now someone would have come up with a 2 speed manual and or thought to use the older Powerglide?

Thx, 
Kevin


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Kevin,
I came to the same conclusion you did. And am constantly looking on craig's list for a PowerGlide to rebuild. So far no luck. One is out there for me, I know it.
It will go into a 325i BMW 4 door sedan with a Kostov 11 in motor. 
Eric



ElectrifiedMonteSS said:


> I would have thought by now someone would have come up with a 2 speed manual and or thought to use the older Powerglide?
> 
> Thx,
> Kevin


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

ElectrifiedMonteSS said:


> This is all awesome information for sure! I am on the fence on whether to go Manual or auto..
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> ...


Kevin,

Search the forums for the word powerglide.

There have been many discussions on their use and how to modify them.

Look at this link. This trans is ready, all the modes hav ben done. 

http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html

If you want to modify your own glide you can find the basic converteress pump and trans drive in the circle track secions of JEGS or Summit. You can also go to places like TCI trans for parts and plans.

Problem with any custom trans is low production volumn equals HIGH costs.

Jim


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

Eric, 

Ebay is a better bet for looking for that.. on the first page I found 6 or 8 used ones when i searched for just "Powerglide".. A specific search for "2 Speed Powerglide" only returned with 2 being posted..

My thinking at first was I'll need reverse one of these days, ya know! LOL.. The easiest way to do that in the beginning of my planning was with a tranny.. But then again I was only thinking of using a DC motor.. AC motors can be reversed..

One guy from FB Performance Trans has mated a Ford AODE/AO3 


But I’m NOT a Ford guy, but with the exception of maybe the Ford 9” rear end.. They can’t be beat and there are more gear choices for the 9” rears too..

I know Richmond use to make a clutch less manual where all you needed to do to shift between gears was let off the gas for a second change gears then mash the GO Peddle and keep moving.. I was also thinking Lenco could probably pull off a 2 speed as their tranny is modular.. Cost is a big factor.. I know if more gear heads got into this things would really take off..

Kevin


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

Jim, 
I knew someone would have to have seen something on here! Your Awesome Man!!

Thx, 
Kevin


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From what I've seen no one has been able to actually contact KansasEV with the EV glide.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> From what I've seen no one has been able to actually contact KansasEV with the EV glide.


JRP3,

I've heard that as well.

It may well be that Kansas EV has gone to that great battery in the sky. 

But the pictures and text are still good pointers to what can be done. Other then the adapter and coupler all of the other stuff (yes pump and pressure switch) is off the shelf.

To be honest a lot of the cost of the trans they are showing is in the shorty tailshaft and case. Those two parts alone are over a $1000.00 at summit racing.

If you can live with a standard tailshaft and housing, stock pump, a cheap manual valve body conversion kit, and a standard over haul kit, and are willing to do the work of sawing off the bell housing yourself. You could probably put a trans together for under $600.00. Then you need a aux pump and pressure switch and a adaprter and coupler.

Jim


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Discussions on powerglide, gm trans, autos, manuals, gearboxes like the front half of an NP203 transfer case, a whole transfer case, automatic Under/overdrives like from gearvendors, race style transmissions like a lenko, where you just pull a lever and it shifts and can be stacked one box after another for 2-6 gear ratios. You name it, Its been discussed. Pick one and roll with it, let us know what you want to try and why!


----------



## Pi3141 (Jan 17, 2010)

ElectrifiedMonteSS said:


> I have been leaning more toward the 2 speed GM Powerglide auto. They are older trannys and not many people that aren’t Gear Heads wouldn’t remember when those were the tranny of choice for Hot Rodders..


That would be on my list too but I have also come across the 3 speed Borg Warner used in Willey's Jeep (and Lotus Elite / Eclat)

Apparently you can build one from scratch with the spare parts available.

Small ligtweight unit, not to expensive and easy to rebuild.

The other one I've been looking at is the DAF Variomatic, I think that would make an excellent EV auto box.


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

That DAF-V looks really cool.. Easy to see where the ATV guys got the idea from for the eariler ATV that were built..


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

Eric, 

You could also try Racecarjunk.com.. Did you get to look on ebay yet?

Kevin


----------



## NabilAhmad (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm eyeing a Cadillac w/ a 4t60 transverse transmission. I'm leaning heavily towards using the TC. From what I've been able to sort out, this is a vacuum controlled throttle sensor, so hopefully the technique used on the miata tranny will work just as well. What experience does anyone have with this tranny?

PS, yes i know a cadillac is not the lightest car in the world; that it will be less efficient than a geo. I'm all ears for suggestions for working around difficulties with USING this car, but am rather deaf to general admonishments to ditch it for a lighter car.

Thanks.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

it would help to know the year. the 4t60 came in two different models one electric the 4t60-e and the standard 4t60.
they all started out as the turbo hydromatic 125 then to the 440 then the 4t60. both models of 4t60 were used in cadilliac's.
electric transmissions, which are popular on this board, take up a lot of juice to run, the non electric models only use internal pressure and dont need electronics.




NabilAhmad said:


> I'm eyeing a Cadillac w/ a 4t60 transverse transmission. I'm leaning heavily towards using the TC. From what I've been able to sort out, this is a vacuum controlled throttle sensor, so hopefully the technique used on the miata tranny will work just as well. What experience does anyone have with this tranny?
> 
> PS, yes i know a cadillac is not the lightest car in the world; that it will be less efficient than a geo. I'm all ears for suggestions for working around difficulties with USING this car, but am rather deaf to general admonishments to ditch it for a lighter car.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## ElectrifiedMonteSS (Feb 27, 2011)

*Larger Cars*

I like the idea of a larger car for the simple fact that we (most of us) have one that we want to build but the current position and trend is to use a smaller one. They build electric trucks for "In Town Use" with roughly the same distance and speed these guys are getting out of a Geo.. The VW guy I mentioned in a eariler post seems to have put together the setup.. but I haven't found the same batteries he use yet..

I honestly feel untill something can be shown that works in any platform and can be modded to work in cross platforms, it is just going to stay small.. 

We have basically come full circle.. but this time around it is the EV. Fords model T motor wasn't much smaller than the motor he used in his first delivery truck.. He just didn't have all the big corps and government road blocking him..

Kevin


----------



## NabilAhmad (Feb 26, 2011)

infantry11b said:


> it would help to know the year. the 4t60 came in two different models one electric the 4t60-e and the standard 4t60.
> they all started out as the turbo hydromatic 125 then to the 440 then the 4t60. both models of 4t60 were used in cadilliac's.
> electric transmissions, which are popular on this board, take up a lot of juice to run, the non electric models only use internal pressure and dont need electronics.


Sorry, it's a 1990 Sedan DeVille; it has the 4.5liter engine. From what I've found in researching the thing, its the 4t60, not the 4t60e - but much of my research has been the great fallible google. I'm wanting to put together a game plan for either transmission before I touch the car, so any advise is appreciated.


----------



## NabilAhmad (Feb 26, 2011)

*Re: Larger Cars*



ElectrifiedMonteSS said:


> I like the idea of a larger car for the simple fact that we (most of us) have one that we want to build but the current position and trend is to use a smaller one. They build electric trucks for "In Town Use" with roughly the same distance and speed these guys are getting out of a Geo.. The VW guy I mentioned in a eariler post seems to have put together the setup.. but I haven't found the same batteries he use yet..
> 
> I honestly feel untill something can be shown that works in any platform and can be modded to work in cross platforms, it is just going to stay small..
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more! The other cars on my check list are a full size convertible with the power to roast the tires on demand, and a current Dodge Charger. We need to show that 'real' cars can be electric.


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

NabilAhmad said:


> Sorry, it's a 1990 Sedan DeVille; it has the 4.5liter engine. From what I've found in researching the thing, its the 4t60, not the 4t60e - but much of my research has been the great fallible google. I'm wanting to put together a game plan for either transmission before I touch the car, so any advise is appreciated.


i think you are better off with the non electric one. you can set it to shift at any rpm and no electric loss at all. i don't know a lot about electric cars but i read this board a lot - but i know a hell of a lot about non electric ones - and their transmissions. 
the only draw back i find is the torque converter - and there are a few fixes here for those too.

good luck,


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: Larger Cars*



NabilAhmad said:


> We need to show that 'real' cars can be electric.


Any vehicle can be made electric if you have enough money. Look at Jack Rickard's Avalanche. You just get much more bang for the buck with smaller vehicles.


----------



## NabilAhmad (Feb 26, 2011)

Toque Converters: correct and explain, please.

From what I've been able to read up on, torque converters are largely vehicle specific and tuned to a desired performance/behavior. I found an explanation that for a given rated stall rpm on a given vehicle, the actual stall rpm could change if the engine were changed. That in the case of an engine with more torque, the stall rpm would go up. And in the case of an engine with higher max rpm, more hp, but less low end torque, the stall would go down. This at first seems counter-intuitive. 

As I understand it, stall rpm on a TC indicates the point where torque is no longer being multiplied and the output speed is nearly the same as the engine's input to the TC. And then of course, when it's locked it is exactly the same.

So given that a Series DC motor produces so much torque at low RPMs, the torque multiplication is less relevant, right? It'd be rather desirable to have a quite low stall with minimal torque multiplication.

How does the transmission fluid enter/ leave the torque converter? Is the bell housing filled with fluid that the torque converter basks in?

Also, I met with a transmission mechanic briefly today, but he was quite busy and unable to devote enough time to fully answer my questions. He indicated that the vacuum on the 4t60 is used to regulate the internal pressures of the transmission. Now, is this indirectly through the throttle position sensor? Is the vacuum used throughout the transmission?


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

> As I understand it, stall rpm on a TC indicates the point where torque is no longer being multiplied and the output speed is nearly the same as the engine's input to the TC. And then of course, when it's locked it is exactly the same.


Slight confusion in terminology. Stall is the max speed in rpm the torque converter can be turned with the input shaft of the transmission held stationary. The more low down turning effort the motor has the higher the stall point and the lower the turning effort at low speed the lower the stall point. 
The phase of operation you refer to that I've quoted is called the coupling point and generally this is one a the criteria the transmission needs before it applies a lock up clutch.
Personally, I think a fluid coupling would be better suited to an electric drive than a torque converter. The bigger diameter the fluid coupling the lower the coupling point, it's sort of a centrifugal force on the oil thing that stops one half from spinning without the other half and this is applied at the outer edges of the turbine and impellor. The bugger side of this is the bigger the diameter the more torque that's used to get it spinning. Heavier grade oil will help but finding an oil that can handle being whipped up without foaming that is a heavy viscosity can be a tricky issue. Add to that the colder the oil the thicker it gets so a cold first thing drive could be almost like a direct drive, no cushioning effect at all.



> How does the transmission fluid enter/ leave the torque converter? Is the bell housing filled with fluid that the torque converter basks in?


Torque converters are fed oil via the snout that joins it to the transmission with oil fed in through one part and back out another with valving to maintain pressure but flow to allow heat transfer. Fluid couplings are often a stand alone unit and filled via a plug in the housing, heat is an issue with fluid coupling.
Hope that helps and I remembered it correctly.

T1 Terry


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

T1 Terry said:


> Slight confusion in terminology. Stall is the max speed in rpm the torque converter can be turned with the input shaft of the transmission held stationary. The more low down turning effort the motor has the higher the stall point and the lower the turning effort at low speed the lower the stall point.
> The phase of operation you refer to that I've quoted is called the coupling point and generally this is one a the criteria the transmission needs before it applies a lock up clutch.
> Personally, I think a fluid coupling would be better suited to an electric drive than a torque converter. The bigger diameter the fluid coupling the lower the coupling point, it's sort of a centrifugal force on the oil thing that stops one half from spinning without the other half and this is applied at the outer edges of the turbine and impellor. The bugger side of this is the bigger the diameter the more torque that's used to get it spinning. Heavier grade oil will help but finding an oil that can handle being whipped up without foaming that is a heavy viscosity can be a tricky issue. Add to that the colder the oil the thicker it gets so a cold first thing drive could be almost like a direct drive, no cushioning effect at all.
> 
> ...


Fluid couplings are horrible for electric or ICE motors.
A torque converter actually multiplies torque between stall and (in modern ones) lockup. A good stock converter will deliver between 2 to three times the torque to the output shaft when the stator is stationary on its over-running sprag clutch. It would be possible (with some electric motors to have nothing but a lock-up torque converter between the motor and the differential. One would buzz it off the line and then when the output was running 80% of the input, lock the clutch inside the converter. By the time you get to the 80% point the stator is over-running and the torque converter is making almost as much waste heat as a true fluid coupling.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Id like to try something like this....












A constant speed fluid dampened lock up coupler. Might be pricy.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I think an AT would be better than a manual but only if you use it like a Ford Model T. ie operate the bands manually with a cam or with solenoid servo's not hydraulically. Dont use the torque converter, main oil pump or the valve body but have a sealed sump for splash lube of the planetaries
There are some 2 speed autos out there but you could only use the gears that are selected by the bands as the clutch packs need a fluid to operate .
It would take a lot of redesigning to figure out a reduction and a straight 1;1 drive but having a gear that can be selected smoothly would be better than a manual


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Just a quick brows through FleaBay and the Ford C10 comes to mind
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Ford-C10-Automatic-Transmission-/260766296165
it has 2 bands but I dont know which gears they operate. one could be reverse, 8^(
You would cut off the bell housing and adapt a motor plate to the bolt holes that used to hold the main oil pump in.
throw the valve body and bolt an alloy plate onto the face where the oil pan used to be.
gut the clutches out and probly remove the extension housing and try to fit a plate with a seal there.
needs more research.


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

The bellhousing unbolts, the front band give a 2nd speed function and the rear band give lock low and reverse function. To get any drive in a planetary system 2 members need to be held at the same time, this is done with clutch packs in a C10. The forward clutch gives low reduction in combination with either the sprag clutch or the rear band and second speed reduction combined with the front band, the rear clutch combined with the rear band gives reverse and the front and rear clutch combined gives direct drive. You will be a real life MacGyver if you can convert that to a mechanical band drive system. Much easier to use an oil pump and operate the system as it was designed. An external low volume pump or even an accumulator would give enough pressure to keep the clutch pack/band applied and the system primed while stationary at an intersection so a torque converter and idle function would really not be needed but it certainly would smooth out the take off and ratio changes. Converting the torque converter to a fluid coupling would give the best of both worlds. Food for thought.

T1 Terry


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*What I wound up with...*









A 2 speed powerglide, no converter, no governor, full manual valve body. Weighs about 125Lbs. This is a TCI built unit. 1965 vintage, with most of the reverse clutches removed (less friction in forward). Rear pump removed. Thinner steel plates and the forward drum has been lathe turned to allow more forward clutch plates to be installed. Most all of the valves and hardware were removed. It is incredably simple inside. It also has a option for an "automatic clutch" based on engine RPM. (I dont have that, but might in the future).










This is the oval track coupler. Heat runs 140-190 Deg. F. without the torque converter. Some factory ones were even air cooled without external lines or heat exchangers.

They even have a manual push start kit for them. It consists of a new side piston cover with a provision to engage the forward/low piston (band) manually for push starts. It could be adapted to drive the car...but why? Still no reverse or high. You would need an external 200PSI oil pump to engage reverse or high clutch. Why not use the internal Gerotor pump. It is already there. (That is what I did)


----------



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Mizlplix-How is the drive-ability of your setup? Does it grab suddenly as the throttle is first applied and the internal pump/pumps build pressure? If so I could see using the circle track push start kit with a servo to engage the first gear bands anytime you have the selector in first to avoid the harsh engagement when the pump spins up.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Lol, it is a little soon to tell as I have just set it in the car and am building battery racks. But, I will update you when I get it running, maybe a month or so down the line.

But, if years of experience on the track is any indication, I plan to precharge the trans first. If I back out of the driveway or just blip the throttle in park, then put it into low, the engagement should be minimal.

I also have a Moroso 1.5 Qt. accumulator to plumb into the system too. I will hold the charge for a while. How long is determined by internal leakages.

I am intrigued by the TCI "automatic" clutch version. it sounds like the exact thing we need for an EV.

FROM THE TCI WEB SITE:

"The 'clutchless' style works similar to a Powerglide with a working torque converter. It is very simple to install because the shifter is the only external control required. To take off, you simply put the transmission in low gear and slowly depress the throttle. Once you're moving, you can shift to high gear; even at wide-open throttle! Reverse works the same way as low gear. And, because it's a reverse shift pattern, there's no chance of bumping the shifter into neutral or reverse during upshifts".


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

Did anyone here get some emails from infantry11b - got hacked from china and peru and they started sending emails. if you did, DON'T FOLLOW THE LINK, JUST DELETE IT! think I have to solved.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi guys

I've got a strange thing happening here:

My Supra conversion has a computer controlled, 3-speed automatic.
The torque converter can also be locked up by a solenoid valve, under control of the tranny computer. At the moment, it still has the stock Toyota tranny computer, although I have a SupraStick ready to replace this
(will allow me to alter the shifting tables, if I ever get this thing finished)

I drove it around the block today, it felt quite weak and under powered.
The Zilla's set to 100V low-battery warning, 1000A battery current limit, 1300A motor current limit, 150V motor volts limit.
rpm limit is 5k, nominal system voltage is 132V
(dual packs of sealed lead-acid batteries, 11 Exide Maxxima's & 11c Hawker 42Ah Genesis)

The motor seems to rev up like mad but the car will hardly move, staying in 1st gear. The Zilla's barely using any amps (see graph, captured data using ZillaConfig).

Eventually the gearbox will change gear into 2nd, but only once I get up to about 10mph, and only if I left off the gas pedal a bit.

I think something's up with the auto tranny - could the fluid level be wrong? Maybe not enough fluid = no transfer of power through the torque converter?
I'm unsure how the motor can rev so high at such low motor amps
(160 motor amps max, 20 motor volts max, 4k rpm) - to my mind this implies the autobox is hardly putting any load on the motor, so it revs towards the rpm limit....??

Maybe I need to force the torque converter into lockup?
(this implies fitting the Suprastick controller)

link to plot of motor data... motor volts on secondary y-axis
http://www.supralectrix.com/Supralectrix/autobox_strangeness.html


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Ok, a small update:

I realised the 3-bit gray code that the Supra's engine ECU sends to the transmission computer has the 3 lines at +12V when the throttle is closed (or only lightly open). This was opposite to what I had in my earlier test, so the transmission computer was probably thinking I was using 2/3 throttle all the time ("what the heck's this crazy driver doing?")

Ok, some background: The Supra's engine computer sends the throttle position as a 3-bit binary (Gray) code to the transmission computer. Since my Electric Supra hasn't got an engine or the engine's ECU anymore, I've had to re-create this 3-bit code using a small program running on a Siemens Logo! PLC. This digitizes the Zilla's Hall-effect pedal input and then outputs the right combination on the 3 wires to the transmission computer - at least that was the theory!

I guess I got my PLC's logic backwards, so I just re-ran my test around the block using 3 rocker switches instead of the PLC to set the "throttle position" input manually.

Much better - it changes gear more normally now. Still not 100% right, but maybe the Suprastick will help, if I fit that in place of the Toyota computer.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

mcudogs said:


> Jim,
> 
> I am using a high pressure fuel pump. I put it under test pumping ATF for 4 hours continuous to make sure it would take the load. It produces a pressure of 80 psi. I have now done a test using a container of atf feeding the inlet of the pump and it seems to work OK. The pump turns on for about 1/2 second every 5 seconds.
> 
> Don


I finally got round to connecting the input of the pump into the sump of the transmission and it still doesn't work. It looks like keeping the pressure at 80psi at the high pressure test port does not ensure that the clutches remain engaged. The transmission has another test port at the governor I might try connecting to that. 

I think there is a pressure regulator that is controlled by the vacuum modulator after the pump so that might not be operating correctly with only 80 psi in the high pressure port.

Any ideas guys?

Don


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

electronic trans not my main preference - but generally gm uses as much as 250 lbs of pressure to switch into reverse and usually more than 210 to get the rest of the gears shifting. my guess is 80 will get you no where.

hope it helps. 





mcudogs said:


> I finally got round to connecting the input of the pump into the sump of the transmission and it still doesn't work. It looks like keeping the pressure at 80psi at the high pressure test port does not ensure that the clutches remain engaged. The transmission has another test port at the governor I might try connecting to that.
> 
> I think there is a pressure regulator that is controlled by the vacuum modulator after the pump so that might not be operating correctly with only 80 psi in the high pressure port.
> 
> ...


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

mcudogs: Ya what he said. 

More pressure. A powerglide needs 140# + to stay in gear. 

How about an emergency power brake pump for a box truck? When key is off, you push the brake, the brake needs power so it turns on a pump. GM trucks use hydraulic assisted steering AND brakes, so a 900PSI electric pump is used...
AND it uses....ATF and a small accumulator in the system.

MIZ


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> mcudogs: Ya what he said.
> 
> More pressure. A powerglide needs 140# + to stay in gear.
> 
> ...


I just checked the workshop manual for the transmission and the stall test for the box says you should have 40-54 psi at the line pressure test point with the engine idling and the transmission in D or 1.

Would the clutches usually be engaged when idling in 1st? I don't want to buy another pump and go to all of that trouble if I am not sure it will fix the problem.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Strange it is such a low pressure. You must have a greater number of clutches than most of these.... http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-line-pressure REMEMBER: these pressures were at 2000 engine RPMs.

The street type transmissions have the lowest pressures at 50PSI, some go up to 220PSI for the manual shift ones.

My Circlematic is rated 140-170PSI.

I stick by "not enough pressure".

As you drive your car more than 20 feet or so, you should have full front pump pressure. This slipping business tells me that something is dumping your
front pump pressure. OR something electronic is not shutting and allowing pressure to build. Not so sure locking the converter would help here.

As an experiment...Get a small tire portable air tank. put 2 Qts of ATF in it. Air pressurize it to 100PSI+. Close valve. Screw it to your pressure port. Turn tank upside down and open valve. You now have maybe 30-45 seconds of 100+ PSI oil pressure.

Keep us updated so we can dwell on it. Miz


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

+2 both above 800 rpm Idle at GM specs, my stuff says 50 lbs MINIMUM for a powerslush.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Strange it is such a low pressure. You must have a greater number of clutches than most of these.... http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-line-pressure REMEMBER: these pressures were at 2000 engine RPMs.
> 
> The street type transmissions have the lowest pressures at 50PSI, some go up to 220PSI for the manual shift ones.
> 
> ...


Miz,

The transmission has the torque converter removed so the electric motor is not being idled. The problem only happens when the car is at rest and I put my foot down quickly on the throttle. The pressure in the box doesn't operate the clutches until the motor has been turning for about 1/2 second or so and when the clutches come in there is a loud bang and the wheels spin. If I accelerate slowly everything is OK, but it's hard for anyone else to drive the car.

Also the transmission is not electronically controlled at all other than a kick down solenoid operated off a switch on the throttle.

Thats a good idea about the air tank I will see if I can pick one up somewhere.

Don


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Canton or Moroso make a small accumulator about 3pints. Plumb it into the main pressure port. It will delay the engagement also cushion it too. The pressure curve will be not so abrupt.

Check in a Jegs catalog. Miz


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Wouldn't that radically alter the fluid levels in the transmission?


----------



## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

you need to use an outside pressure source to keep the pressure up when at idle. there are some products on the market, they usually fit between the trans and the motor. look at this site and you will find a few in production.



mcudogs said:


> Miz,
> 
> The transmission has the torque converter removed so the electric motor is not being idled. The problem only happens when the car is at rest and I put my foot down quickly on the throttle. The pressure in the box doesn't operate the clutches until the motor has been turning for about 1/2 second or so and when the clutches come in there is a loud bang and the wheels spin. If I accelerate slowly everything is OK, but it's hard for anyone else to drive the car.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

infantry11b said:


> you need to use an outside pressure source to keep the pressure up when at idle. there are some products on the market, they usually fit between the trans and the motor. look at this site and you will find a few in production.


Indeed, if you look at the EVGlide system, it has an external pump to keep the pressure up when the motor isn't turning. Perhaps you could contact KansasEV (The people who make the EVGlide) and find out what pump setup they use. Or just invest in an EVGlide .


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I am a month away from working out the same problem. My ultimate back up is the emergency braking.pump for a GM truck. There are a lot of units out there but price is my main concern. While the EV Glide is a mice proxduct...i am into my rebuilt TCI circle track glide about $350..it is a nice product too for a lot less. Even buying a pump.

BTW: Changing fluid levels is not critical as you think. It takes almost a 2 qt. Loss to make a trans slip. Especially a street driven car. A 2 qt. Deeper pan plus running only 1 qt. Extra would give you almost 3qts. To play with.

But I will see how good my theory is soon. I wonder how crow tastes with ketchup?

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Anaerin said:


> Indeed, if you look at the EVGlide system, it has an external pump to keep the pressure up when the motor isn't turning. Perhaps you could contact KansasEV (The people who make the EVGlide) and find out what pump setup they use. Or just invest in an EVGlide .


From what people have said no one has been able to actually buy the EVGlide, or even have actual contact with KansasEV.  Maybe it didn't work out as well as they thought and they gave up.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I thought that the main reason for keeping the fluid levels at a set point was that the ATF would foam and cause pressure fluctuations.

Don


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I used to drive a Box truck for an El Cheapo person. He wouldnt fix anything. It had a front seal leak.....

I would fill the transmission 2" on the stick over full and drive. when it stopped moving later on in the day, I would put in about 3 qts. to get it back up to 2" above full and drive the rest of my route.

I worked for him almost 5 months.....

Conclusions: Overfull conditions in a medium/low speed vehicle are not drastically harmful. As long as you stop at the first sign of slipping and refill it, running 2 qts low is not immediately fatal. Never work for a carpet salesman named Nicky.

I feel that the addition of a 2 qt. deeper pan and the ability of running 1/2 qt. overfull would give a decent buffer for an accumulator. Transmission oil level is based on the pickup screen depth in the pan. The deep pans are supplied with a spacer to lower them.

Having said that: An electric pump would be the best solution overall. It recycles the fluid in the transmission like the original. 

Wire a relay to the new pump. Hook it to a key switched signal. 

Have it controlled by the on/off switch on the throttle pot (Or controller).

Key off = no pump run. 

Key on / no throttle = pump run. (car stopped, pump engages clutches/bands)

Key on / throttle = pump off. (driving, trans pump takes over)

I will start looking today at work for an appropriate, small, high pressure 12VDC motor/pump unit.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

At the moment the pump is wired off the ignition through an adjustable pressure switch. When the pressure drops below about 50 psi the pump turns on until the pressure reaches 60 psi then the switch opens and the pump stops, so if the motor is turning the pressure stays high and the electric pump doesn't run. It takes about 15 seconds for the pressure to drop below 50 psi after the motor stops turning.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, after doing a LOT of online searching and brain storming, I found something that looks promising.










12 Volt DC Diaphragm Pump (Demand):: Max 1.8 GPM @ 100 psi, 3/8" FPT Ports

For a wide variety of low pressure applications. Pumps are available in 12/24/115 Volt with Viton valves and Santoprene internals. Adjustable demand switch for automatic shut-off or internal by-pass without a switch. Maximum temperature is 170° F.

OK, not as high as the 140PSI that my glide has as minimum, but maybe doable. Also: The 170 Degree max....My circle track glides without a converter usually hold 140-180 with a V8 engine, no cooling and a 20 lap race.

I do have water cooling for the trans. And the price looks OK. at $78.55

I use these at work on riding spray rigs used to stripe football fields. They are pretty rugged. I have had them apart many times to clean out dried paint...LOL

My only question is if 100psi is enough.

Still looking, Miz

OK, heres another, a bit more impressive too:

SU8030-813-239	12 Volt DC Diaphragm Pump, Demand Control, *1.5 Max GPM, *150* Cut Out Pressure, 80 Cut in Pressure, 150 Max PSI, 1/2" MPT Ports, Viton® Valve, Santoprene Diaphragm for $118.00


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The diaphragms can handle hot transmission fluid?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The pumps are rated at 170 Deg F.

Without a converter, My trans would get to 140-180 without water cooling.

My trans in EV is water cooled without the engine heat, so I am confident, Yes the pump can handle it.

The pump diaphragms are made of Santoprene, It has good compression set at room temperature and moderate performance at high temperature up to 135 °C. Service temperature is 135 °C (permanent) and 150 °C (temporary).

135 C = 275 F.

The pump service temp rating is limited by the Delrin housing not the diaphragm. Delrin is dimensional stable for molded parts, but suffers increased degradation in hot environments.

The pump can be cycled by it's built-in pressure switch, so it can be cooling in the air stream while driving and only handling hot oil for a few minutes as the car is at the stop light. They only have room for about 2-3 TBL spoons of oil inside the pump chamber, I am hoping it will cool rapidly when the pump is stopped.

My oil pan is already tapped for 1/4" NPT to take a temp. sensor, so the pump plumbing should be easy.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I took some pressure readings on the transmission today without the pump. The pressure at the line test port rose very quickly to about 80 psi and it stabilised there until it changed to 2nd gear when it went up to 120 psi. In third it dropped again to about 80 psi.

When I stopped the motor the pressure drops very quickly to about 20 psi then drops to zero over about 5 seconds. It looks like there is a pressure regulator after the line test port which regulates the pressure to 80 psi for 1st & 3rd and 120 psi for 2nd. 

From all that I think my electric pump is just not generating enough pressure to overcome the regulator valve tension. So if I can use a pump that does 120 psi it should hold the clutches in. Because the pressure is regulated I can't use a pressure operated switch to turn on the pump. I think I can just use the switch on my throttle pot to turn on the pump when I am at 0 throttle.

What do you guys think?

Don


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Sorry if someone asked this already but how do you think an smg (sequential manual from BMW m3) transmission would work with a warp11hv?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Mcudogs...yes, pot switch would be an option. Powered on when key switched, but only runs when throttle pedal is at zero. Like stopped.

Bowser.. I have only driven Sequentials in open wheel race cars. I see no reason for it to not work in an EV.

FWIW: I ordered one of those 150 psi pumps today. I'll let u know when I get it.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Mcudogs...yes, pot switch would be an option. Powered on when key switched, but only runs when throttle pedal is at zero. Like stopped.
> 
> Bowser.. I have only driven Sequentials in open wheel race cars. I see no reason for it to not work in an EV.
> 
> FWIW: I ordered one of those 150 psi pumps today. I'll let u know when I get it.


Where did you order the pump from? I can't find a supplier for them in Australia.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I ordered it from:

Dultmeier.com

Part# SU8030-813-239 $118.50

They say they only deal business to business, but Just fill out the info. and "make up" a business name. Being in Oz, I imagine they dont do a lot of research on it. (one guy on their site said he was using a pump on his bass boat...business only....yep)

Miz. EDIT: my pump arrived on Friday. It is a nicely built unit. It needs 1/4" Npt or better sized plumbing. I think I will make a 2pint sized accumulator to buffer the pump and give a longer dwell time between pump cycles. More on that later when I get to it.

EDIT: Got the pump, installed it. Have not ran it yet. It is difficult to get the 1/2" inlet fittings and hose, from the trans pan,the pump wants. I am using 1/4" and I hope it does not cause any issues....


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I received my pump this week and tried it this morning. I didn't have the patience to fit it properly so I just connected the pump output straight to the transmissions test port and used a tube going into a can of ATF for the pump input instead of plumbing it to the autos sump.

Great news it works!!!!

I just powered the pump from a spare 12v battery and when I rev the motor the wheels move immediately. Previously the wheels would only move after about 1/2 second or so. The pump runs continuously and consumes about 3 amps. Eventually I will wire the pumps power via the throttle switch which operates when the throttle is at 0. 

Now I have to work out how to mount the pump and plumb an outlet into the sump of the transmission. The pump is self priming so it can be mounted above the fluid level in the sump. Should I use some sort of filter on the sump outlet to protect the pump from metal particles in the ATF?


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> I received my pump this week and tried it this morning. I didn't have the patience to fit it properly so I just connected the pump output straight to the transmissions test port and used a tube going into a can of ATF for the pump input instead of plumbing it to the autos sump.
> 
> Great news it works!!!!
> 
> ...


Hi Guys

Been watching this with interest, as I'd been thinking the same thing for
use on my Supra, which has an auto box.

I've just looked on the Shurflo website, they DON'T recommend Santoprene for use with ATF.... (their chart lists it as compatibility "D" = "severe effect", Viton is "A" = no effect)
this seems to tie up with other info on the web....
Their "Geolast" diaphragm might work with ATF (seems to be listed same compatibility as Nitrile rubber, "B")
Just thought you'd like a "heads-up!"

Shurflo do a version with all Viton internals, this might be better suited
e.g. part no 8000-343-236
Not sure if they do one with 100 psi pressure switch (though I guess the switches could be swapped over)


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Great, back to the fxxxing drawing board again.


----------



## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

mcudogs said:


> Great, back to the fxxxing drawing board again.


Maybe not, Shurflo do make replacement parts for these pumps, you should be able to get a replacement diaphragm for the pump, but in Viton or Geolast material, then it'd be fine...

It's gotta be worth emailing your pump stockist, or even Shurflo themselves...


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

FWIW: I use several of these at work to transfer hydraulic oil from a drum to 5 gal buckets. I still am using the same one after 2 years...Go figure.

We use another to spray weed killer (a petro chem), and still another to spray paint on athletic fields. All not intended uses.

BUT: none are pumping a media over 100 degrees F.

MIZ


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

OK then so you pump the colder side of the system after the cooler


----------



## Ravishankar (Jan 26, 2009)

Automatic gearboxes can be made to work with electric motors, but you may need a separate power source to keep the pressure of the hydraulic fluid, otherwise the launch feel of the automatic wont be good. It take many rotations of the motor to build up the pressure. I feel the automatic is not as efficient as it sounds when it comes to electric motors. What is actually needed for an electric motor is a multispeed AMT (Automated Manual Transmission) which works WITHOUT torque interruption. Why is this required ? Even though an electric motor has a flat torque-power characteristic, its efficieny varies with speed - though not as much as an ICE. To operate the motor in its most efficient speeds, we need transmissions like these:

http://www.zeroshift.com/transmission-technology/Hybrid-Electric-Vehicle-Transmissions.html

http://www.gizmag.com/new-multi-spe...sion-improves-ev-performance-and-range/11670/

AND

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/09/anotnov-20100913.html

Hopefully one day they are available to EV Converters..


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I really don't think that heat is going to be a problem. After a 40 km run today my auto trans temperature is only 45 deg c and I don't have the cooler connected at all. Without the torque converter there isn't much else to create heat.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Production I.C.E. equipment is optimized to complement their strengths. When converting existing equipment to be used in different situations than what they were originally designed for It goes without saying that modifications are necessary.

My AC50 motor is very RPM flexible:

I only needed two speeds. 

I needed light weight.

I needed a positive coupling.

I needed low cost.

I needed easy availability.

I chose a 2 speed transmission. I deleted the torque converter. I limited the shifting to manual only. It weighs 75# in it's present form. (I am 60 years old and I can pick it up off the floor and carry it easily). A new one from TCI costs $850.00 (Summitt is even cheaper). 

I geared the car (rear axle) according to my city/traffic needs. I get 50MPH in low and 90MPH in high with 6.14:1 ratio.

And as MCUDOGS has said, they make little heat after the torque converter is removed. Yes, I use an external pump to keep pressure up and constant. I am happy with it.

Variable Ratio transmissions are not a new thing, they have been around for decades. They have been relegated to low horsepower applications due to the lack of better materials, but now that has changed.

Accelerating and cruising with a VRT is very nice and smooth, but decelerating is like being uncoupled. The belt is running untensioned and trying to play catch-up with the two adjusting pulleys. You do not have *much* of a coupling effect. I have doubts as to how this would affect Regen. Braking....(That needs explored). Also-How it is sensed and controlled in relation to the electric motor will be a pickle too.

As the new VRT's get into wrecking yards, some are bound to fall into some clever hands. 

Miz

BTW: Mcudogs, Go to- http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/C...cialty-elastomers-fluid-resistance-guide.aspx It gives info on Santoprene And effects with ATF. They had to heat it to 257F for 166 hours to get a negative reaction.


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

Just got a reply from Shurflow, they have a replacement geolast diaphragm code no 94-385-32

They don't make the pump standard with that diaphragm so you have to buy the basic pump and the replacement diaphragm.

I don't think this is the ideal pump to use for this application. I think a gear pump would be better as you don't need much flow rate. Mine was only pumping about 1/2 litre / minute.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you find a decent gear pump for the money, please PM me the information. 

TY, Miz


----------



## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Just finished the whole thread. Thank you to all those that contributed your experienes.


----------



## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

I'm considering a conversion of a Volvo 2005 Station Wagon.

Yes it's heavy, but suites what I need.

It has an Auto Transmission.

Is it worth keeping?


----------



## mcudogs (Apr 29, 2009)

The Shurflow pump is now properly installed and hooked up. It is operated off the auxillary contacts of the pot box through a high current relay, so it only turns on when my foot is off the throttle. The acceleration is now smooth with the clutches operated.

I still have a small problem in that the transmission doesn't change down a gear when I need it to. To overcome this, I am now going to wire the kick down solenoid off a push button switch mounted in the gear lever so that it goes down a gear when I press the button.

One thing I have noticed with driving an automatic transmission is that the battery currents are much less than using a manual transmission and leaving it in one or two gears. The automatics 1st gear gives really good acceleration at only 200 Amps.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

MCU: That is very good to hear. 

Idea: If you could get an RPM switched signal somehow from your controller, you could use that to switch the downshift solenoid.

In a perfect EV world, the transmission would be totally operated by the controller. What a nice set up. The transmission, pump and controller would all just plug into a small interface box.

Do you have any ideas of what the transmission temp is after a long drive?

THX, Miz


----------



## Chuk (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm just starting and still in the first steaps of planning for a EV car, I'm getting a Ford Festiva delivered in 2 day's with 2 transmissions, an auto and a manuel, I'm not a mechanic and my knowledge is limited, would the manual be simpler or would the auto be a viable way to go??

Thanks


----------



## NabilAhmad (Feb 26, 2011)

Chuk said:


> I'm just starting and still in the first steaps of planning for a EV car, I'm getting a Ford Festiva delivered in 2 day's with 2 transmissions, an auto and a manuel, I'm not a mechanic and my knowledge is limited, would the manual be simpler or would the auto be a viable way to go??
> 
> Thanks


Chuck,

From what I've gleaned in this thread and talking to a few transmission mechanics, manual will be easier in general. However, it all depends on if the auto is computer controlled or vacuum controlled. Either way, you just need to figure out how to tell it what it wants to hear. 

To be honest, no one on this thread has stepped up purporting to be a veteran transmission mechanic. So, I would start calling transmission shops looking for someone with racing experience - ask them about controlling shift points before you make mention that your power plant is pushing electrons instead of burning fuel - you will get a lot further. 

From what I've come to understand, the primary thing the vacuum modulator does for the transmission, is tells it how hard to shift. If you disconnect the vacuum line from a perfectly operating transmission, it will shift so hard you'll think it's about to throw things through the hood! The relationship is this - during a gradual acceleration, there is relatively low load on the engine; the vacuum operates inversely to that, so the vacuum is strong. But if you hammer the throttle to accelerate faster, thereby giving it a greater load, the vacuum decreases. This is all part of the complex system that makes the internal combustion machine. The automatic transmission is designed to fool the passengers into thinking there aren't more than one gear; it does this by shifting for you so you forget, then by doing it smoothly so you don't notice. This is done by slowly engaging the friction bands that hold the gears into action. It's the second part there - doing it smoothly that the vacuum modulator regulates. Here's the rub, if it were to always shift soft and smooth, then on those occasions where hard acceleration is called for, or when a very heavy load is being pulled, the bands would slip too much and burn out; instead, it engages the bands quickly - creating a hard shift. 

In the event of electronic shift control, you'll likely just need to hook up the tachometer; you may need to generate a false tach signal to change when it shifts. 

Everything I just said is generic and only part of the picture. Hence why I strongly recommend speaking with someone possessing greater specific knowledge of your particular transmission. 

Another note - it may help to find out what other models use that transmission. There may be other models that were commonly modified for more power, etc, so that may lead to further discovery of tips and tricks.


----------



## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

7circle said:


> I'm considering a conversion of a Volvo 2005 Station Wagon.
> 
> Yes it's heavy, but suites what I need.
> 
> ...


What condition is the Volvo wagon in?
Is it a V70 or V50?


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> If you find a decent gear pump for the money, please PM me the information.
> 
> TY, Miz


 Mercruiser used to use a 12 volt gear pump to lift the stern drive of their inboard/outboard lower drive. It was a beast. May not do enough volume, don't know for sure. The high pressure "Black" Holley fuel pump may also fill the bill. Being fuel proof usually means they would also stand up to warm ATF.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Im talking with Scott Manning of Lenco racing transmissions Cal
http://www.lencoracing.com/index.html
Ive asked about their standard 2 speed units and concluded it cant be used
in EV drives because they freewheel in the reduction gear so they wont reverse or regen brake.
But Scott was mindfull enough to ask me if I wanted a 2 speed for EV use.
Just so happens they have a 2 speed unit especially for EV's which does not freewheel. He is getting me some info on this and I will post a new thread
soon.

The have a ramp and roller actuator for the clutch pack.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Jericho has the very same issues with the drag race model boxes. They use a camming ramp on the side of the gear to over ride the lower gear and unlock them when they are shifted to a higher gear.

Now, the road race models are different in that they are a more traditional "dog ring" transmission. They stay in the gear until shifted out by the shifter while going to the next-higher or lower.

BTW: All of these are straight cut gearing to transmit the most horse power with less parasitic loss, SO they are extremely noisey....... Put into a quiet EV and it would be annoying. Much the same as a Quick-change rear diff is.

Jericho makes an oval track 2 speed transmission that would fit our uses really nice, but the cost is alarming.

Bringing us back to our beloved automatic transmissions.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

NabilAhmad said:


> Chuck,
> To be honest, no one on this thread has stepped up purporting to be a veteran transmission mechanic. So, I would start calling transmission shops looking for someone with racing experience - ask them about controlling shift points before you make mention that your power plant is pushing electrons instead of burning fuel - you will get a lot further.


you may want to re-read the entire thread......

JMHO: the auto is easier to hook up, the manual has less computer interfaces. depends on what your need are.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Nabil: As for being a "veteran transmission mechanic"........

I am a lifetime-long race mechanic as well as a heavy equipment specialist with factory training on ZF-GM-Mopar-Tremec-BW and FoMoCO transmissions.

I am now, at this writing, 60 years old, so I have worked on everything from approximately 1964 and onwards {not counting the 1920-1950 era hot rods}.

1. My choice for the perfect/easy/reasonable cost automatic transmission for an EV would be any make/model/year with a cable operated throttle valve {not vacuum} and NO CPU. {although a converter box is available to convert the sensor signals and mimic the missing CPU to make everything else work again}.

2. The choice of converter/no converter is personal. But, If retained, I would have one built with an extremely low stall RPM-the opposite of the drag race units and idle the EV motor to about 50 RPMs or so to just keep the clutches engaged.

3. The throttle valve which regulates the shifts can be attached to a simple home made linkage that emulates the linkage set-up on the vehicle it came from. I.E.: the foot throttle cable is attached to a lever arm. that arm also has the transmission throttle valve cable attached. The shifts are regulated by the ratio of engine/motor throttle throw VS transmission throttle valve travel. By clever construction of the arm{s} with multiple holes, you can drive and adjust the settings to get the shift points where you want and attach the PB6 there too.

4. If you opt to eliminate the converter, you can cut off the stator support tube sticking out the front of the pump. Cut apart the old converter and reuse the original splined coupler pieces when making a direct drive adapter. This adapter can even include the 1-1/8" bore/keyway to direct mount to the new electric motor {saving you the extra cost}.

5. The decision to keep or eliminate the original bell housing is, again, a personal one. The new adapter housing will now mount with the front pump bolts {using longer bolts}. This design works on 1,000HP drag motors, so we are good to go there. The only real advantage of eliminating the bell housing is to shorten the unit length 4"-6". {as I see it} and this requires a little more complicated work because of the special heat treated input shaft.

Just my view, your mileage may vary....

Miz


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Nabil: As for being a "veteran transmission mechanic"........
> 
> I am a lifetime-long race mechanic as well as a heavy equipment specialist with factory training on ZF-GM-Mopar-Tremec-BW and FoMoCO transmissions.
> 
> ...


This approach is very sound and I like it because I have a good core and rebuild kit that matches the description in stock. As such, its all doable given my beer budget life-style. My first conversion will most likely have the TH700-R4 modified as above in it. My change would be an over-ride converter lock-up "sealed in" relay with the "lock" momentary contact switch located on the shifter. The unlock signal would be both the other button there and the brake light switch just like traditional cruise control release. With the electric motor torque curve one could easily lock the converter any time the vehicle speed exceeds 5 MPH. My micro-controller shills set is at the novice stage but I can, at this time, read a VSS signal and control a torque converter lock-up signal with a Parallax BS2 or Propeller. The reason I mention this is that currently available transmission interface controllers seem to be going for $800.


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

The vacuum modulator also controls the shift firmness in an at as well as shift rpm so to just apply vacuum to make it shift will cause a soft or slipping shift. You would need to regulate the vacuum to get the correct shift feel. That's the way the at knows how far your foot was into the throttle of the ice it was originally behind.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Tinker: Maybe my above diatribe was not too clear, but I was talking about a cable throttled transmission. The throttle cable regulates the throttling valve. There is no vacuum modulator.

Most modern 4 speed automatics are the cable type. They come in both computer and non-computer models. there are even a few 3 speed ones if you look around some.

The 4 speed models require the torque converter to be locked in late 3rd gear before the 4th gear shift is made to stop the turbine from actually turning backwards while in O.D. And heating up the oil. This locking feature (as Columbkid sez) can be done earlier electronically, say in late first gear and is usefull in an EV.

Miz


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

Sorry Miz I was trying to reply to a post about a turbo 350 questin elswhere in this forum about controlling the shift with the modulator. I hit the wrong button when I replied and it went to the end of the line.
I was a transmission tech at a GM dealer about 20 years back and what you are talking about with the 700R4 is on the right track and should work fine.
Thanks Tinkeringgreg


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Great thread.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Faux Clutch-Glide???*

Continuing on with my reading I've run into two ATI kits for racing Power Glides. One is a full manual valve body with two levers out the side of the case. One lever, of course, goes to the manual gear selector. The other gets actuated by their hydraulic clutch pedal master cylinder and slave "clutch" actuation cylinder.
their hydraulic clutch kit, PN 28274440 is quoted at $299.99. The valve body is available by itself but more interesting is PN 282744001 $699.99. This kit includes a drive adapter that fits over the reaction stater shaft spline and just engages the pump drive and the turbine shaft. The forward end of the shaft is designed to bolt directly to a Chevrolet crankshaft. It looks like the Solitron controllers idling the traction motors would allow starting to occur as one "lets out the clutch". Have any of you (in your circle track days) ever driven this setup?
I'm thinking this would be a good way to run accessory drives off the front of a NetGain 11" and still have the Glide advantages.


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Hi, this may be considered off topic, but I see there are auto trans experts here. The GM 4spd auto fitted to the Aussie 3.8 V6 Commodore(Pontiac?) 2004 . Will putting the tranny in neutral and coasting downhill as in hypermiling damage it? I assume it would be the same as a DC motor coasting with power off. Any thoughts.?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Having used "oval track" type transmissions most of my life....If you use a direct drive coupler







, you can not "idle" the motor as it is turning the front pump and planetary directly. The moment you put it in drive or low, the car will "jump". You must retain a torque converter. 

BTW: Speedwaymotors.com have the couplers cheap. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Powerglide-Drive-Flange-Parts,5440.html









The "clutch" option using the internal clutches and will wear them fast if used to start the car on pavement. Dont do it.
OR get a complete powerglide ready to go: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/TCI-Circlematic-Powerglides,42830.html?parentDisplayId=24146
Options 3 & 4 are direct drive or torque converter.



In coasting, no motor idling to keep the front pump pressure up, you will want to keep to two conditions...1-keep speeds as low as possible AND 2-keep duration of coast to minimum.* If your motor is idling, you are good to go.*

Now, how much "damage: does it cause? Each *no-idle* "coast" will accrue a small extra wear to the overall transmission. Mostly in the bronze bushings that hold planetary pressure for clutch pack "hold" function.

If the "coasts are held to 45 seconds or so, almost no damage, but if you pulled it in neutral with another car for 100Km or so, you will have a permanent damage needing repairs.

Older powerglides and hydramatics had a rear pump that was driven off the driveshaft and could even push start. They could be coasted forever with no damage.

Miz


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Thank you for your reply. If I have read your reply correctly it is OK if the motor is left running at idle, which it is for the neccessary AC, brakes and alternator. The shift lever is moved to neutral for coasting and then re-engaged when the gradient flattens. This gives .6L per 100Km saving. Over 600km this gives a saving of appr. 3.6l per fillup. At $1.50/litre this is $5.40au per tank. Not much considering the effort, possible tranny damage and the thrill of travelling in "angel" gear. Thanks.


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Having used "oval track" type transmissions most of my life....If you use a direct drive coupler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What if we were to use this and run an external electric pump to keep presure up at a stop
? And where do we plumb the pump?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

An aux. pump can be plumbed in to the pressure checking port. Each trans has its own pressure requirement. Make sure you use a compatible pump.


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> An aux. pump can be plumbed in to the pressure checking port. Each trans has its own pressure requirement. Make sure you use a compatible pump.


 So thats all I will need? Just some presure at 0 rpm and a strait shaft from the motor?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yup. you can use automatic shifting or a manual valve body like I did. No torque converter, a 150 PSI pump (powerglide). 









They make a direct drive adapter for powerglide, Turbo 350, C-4, 747 torqueflite, or you can get custom built ones made.

The manual shift worked best for me. 50 in low, 95 in second (drive), with a 32" diameter tire and 6.14:1 gears, at 6,500RPMs.

You then use any motor kit/adapter plate and the same hub as the standard shift clutch models use.

miz


----------



## Mercman (Mar 28, 2012)

Hello fellow EV gurus!!

I'm a nube at EV...but we were all there at some point right?

Well, I'd like to convert my '41 Merc. and would like it to run with an automatic box.

I'm starting at square 1 basically, so please feel free to load me up with your best advise and all you've got because this beast will ride EV one day thanks to all of your advise!

Best to all!


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks, Mizlplix for your reply. Re the fitting of an external pump. Wasn't there a post suggesting idling the DC motor at approx 500rpm to maintain trans pressure? Seems simpler.


----------



## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Can´t idle if there is no torque converter

Harri


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

??? As Homer would say "DOH!"


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you use a torque converter you can "idle" the traction motor at 50 RPM's or so, to keep the trans in gear. Some controllers support this, but not all.

With a direct drive coupler, the power flow is locked straight through and when in any gear, the traction motor needs to be at zero shaft speed or the car will move.

With a direct drive coupler, If you are in park or neutral, you can also "idle" the motor. BUT, as soon as you select a gear....Hang on because the car is going to lurch and start moving ASAP. 

It is bad for two reasons...driveability is bad AND it uses small paper faced clutches to start a big heavy car moving. They were never designed to do this and suffer rapid wear. The same as in the "Clutch type" oval track trans , it wears the clutches. They were only meant to match the hub speed to the planetary and to lock it solid. Slippage was minimal and slight.

Miz


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> If you use a torque converter you can "idle" the traction motor at 50 RPM's or so, to keep the trans in gear. Some controllers support this, but not all.
> 
> With a direct drive coupler, the power flow is locked straight through and when in any gear, the traction motor needs to be at zero shaft speed or the car will move.
> 
> ...


 Removing the torque converter has 2 advantages. First off I volunteer at a drag race HI with young kids so they are going to learn how to build and race the truck on 50v and with only 50v the motor will not spin fast enough to even engage a torque converter.
Number two is these motors can make full torque at 0 rpm so a torque converter is not letting you use that as an advantage as you should.
The clutch packs will be fine if I keep enough pressure on them at 0 rpm they will hold the selected gear plates together until a shift. And the nice thing with an auto is full throttle shifts making a faster drag vehicle!
The way an auto is designed it can pull on two clutches at once during a shift because first gear usually uses a sprag clutch. SO as second pulls the shaft speed above 1st the sprague just free wheels until the first gear clutch is released. We will install a shift kit.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Arlo: Your application is perfect for a direct drive, no external pump.

When you want to stage, you put in low gear, slowly (very slowly) depress the throttle pot. It will jolt and start moving after 2 seconds or so after the front pump builds some pressure. This is undesirable in a street car, but good for yours.

After you stage. you left toe the brake to keep in the beam. Then just nail the throttle to go. 

The motor will come up and the clutches will hit hard, chirping or spinning the rear tires. (depending on the torque/power and tire size.)

Leaving you many ways to tune the launch.

When the transmission gets tired of this treatment, re-do it with Kevlar bands and racing clutch linings.

Forget the shift kit. Get a full manual valve body. A normally calibrated shift kit will probably not shift where you want it to for an electric motor. 

Miz


----------



## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I would love to see a motor to transmission mount for a powerglide like this motor to motor coupler from electric blue: 










Then you could cut off the bellhousing and shove the entire motor/trans combo back into the tunnel.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Easy to make. They use the front pump bolts to mount the adapter.

You can shorten the input shaft and cut off the stator support entirely.










Bell cut off....










Racing bell showing large bolt circle.

It would be very very sexy looking too.
Easily do-able.

Miz


----------



## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Easy to make. They use the front pump bolts to mount the adapter.
> 
> Miz


Is it appropriate (is the pump mounting strong enough) to attach the adaptor via the pump bolts?

I can see the bolts holding the pump in place, but I'm not sure hanging a 100+ lb motor there.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

They use it to hold powerglides to 2,000HP drag race motors. It must be somewhat secure.
Miz


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

I talked to a technician at TCI in Alabama today. They are sending me their complete catalog via snail-mail. I'm trying to wrap the cranium around a sane EV application alternative for a Powerglide. I'm leaning toward their stiffest torque converter, PN 74025 @ $248.95. It is claimed that behind a full-race ICE it has a flash stall speed of just 1,500 RPM. Other circle-track sites claim it has 2% slip when under-way. It's a 10" diameter converter. Here in Arizona that should keep waste heat to a minimum and allow motor idling (Solitron1) for accessory AC drive-power steering/hydro-boost master cylinder combo. I've got enough data from this site to mod one or more salvaged computer power supplies for DC-DC conversion. I should be able to cascade the smaller ones to bump up the efficiency for variable 12 volt DC demand.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I havnt read this thread up to date but Ive just tested my car with a manual start button to bypass the auto's inhibitor switch.
taking into consideration an electric drive would not have a torque converter like my car has, I got some reasonably smooth in gear take offs at idle and full throttle. ( the noise in the background is my neighbor's air tool)
I now feel confident I could bolt a 2 speed onto my AC90 without a prepump and get acceptable smoothness in takeoffs from standstill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKEGQ8-qhqI&feature=plcp&context=C4c8b8d6VDvjVQa1PpcFM8Qpvuq71IQa6Th2NwF-5Pov5ChWWw1QQ%3D


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just remember,in your test, you have a torque converter dampening the take off.

AND, your paper faced holding clutches are now traction clutches. Meaning they now slip a lot to get the 2,000# (+) pounds moving.

Do the same test with a manual transmission, it would be more accurate, just the short pressure lag/jerk would be missing.

Miz


----------



## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> I havnt read this thread up to date but Ive just tested my car with a manual start button to bypass the auto's inhibitor switch.
> taking into consideration an electric drive would not have a torque converter like my car has, I got some reasonably smooth in gear take offs at idle and full throttle. ( the noise in the background is my neighbor's air tool)
> I now feel confident I could bolt a 2 speed onto my AC90 without a prepump and get acceptable smoothness in takeoffs from standstill.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKEG...DvjVQa1PpcFM8Qpvuq71IQa6Th2NwF-5Pov5ChWWw1QQ=


 Yeh thats not an acurate comparison at all. The torque converter drives the pump so alowing the torque converter to spin freely to a certain rpm before it trys to make the shafts turn lets the pump pressure build so the proper clutch plates will he held tight (all clutch plates use pump presure to engauge). So with out a toque converter the clutch plates will slip till the rpm comes up then engauge which is very hard on them.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

mizlplix said:


> Just remember,in your test, you have a torque converter dampening the take off.
> 
> AND, your paper faced holding clutches are now traction clutches. Meaning they now slip a lot to get the 2,000# (+) pounds moving.
> 
> ...


yeah but.....
all clutches are paper faced and they have to deal with full throttle TC locked upshifts else where like 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd. Bands are similar material.
A little careful footwork in traffic, ie standing starts, would have the clutches running in similar conditions. all traffic would be done in 1st and you would back off for upshift to second.
The TC in my Mitsi is locked most of the time anyway. Seems to only go loose at the lights


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Nice theory. I hope it works out for you.

I'm just baseing my answer on 35+ years of oval track and drag.racing.

(I think.this thread has played out for me.)

Miz


----------



## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

Miz, I'm interested in substituting a PG for my gearbox, but I'm not sure it will fit in my transmission tunnel. Could you measure the width of the sump flange and how far back the rear part of the flange is from the bell housing face or, preferably, the front face of the pump (it look like that would be the fore/aft dimension of the sump flange.)

--DV--


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

OK, Powerglide:

Front pump face to rear of pan=11"

Pan width, side to side=14"

http://www.tciauto.com/ is a good resource for other information. Search powerglide {one word}.

Miz


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Frameless pump drive motor*

I've found a type of AC motor suitable to directly drive the Powerglide front pump. I'm waiting on an email response from the USmotion. The permanent magnet rotor has to be pressed onto a pump drive sleeve. A seal and bearing would have to be installed on the planetary input shaft to contain the fluid and support the front end of the AC motor rotor. The stator would have to be bolted on when the front pump cover is installed. If they can quote a proper fit, the bell housing would contain the "frameless" AC brush less motor and the traction motor coupling. I would try to scale the pump speed in a small VFD to the traction motor RPM except when at a light when we want the traction motor stopped but a pressure maintained on the tranny guts. 600 RPM under those conditions for the pump would be ideal. It may be possible to modify the drive setup put out by ATI to contain one more sleeve bearing and seal. It would be a two piece affair then. To see if you agree check out this page: http://usmotion.com/1_frameless.asp
I'd like to see this go open source like the 10Kw charger did.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If done right, this is a really good idea. (If it is economically feasible.)


Miz


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Frameless pump drive*



mizlplix said:


> If done right, this is a really good idea. (If it is economically feasible.)
> 
> Miz


No email back today. I sent another inquiry for a pdf document listing designer's specs for their frameless rotors and stators. Hope they don't pull an Azure Dynamics on us.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Frameless pump drive*



coulombKid said:


> No email back today. I sent another inquiry for a pdf document listing designer's specs for their frameless rotors and stators. Hope they don't pull an Azure Dynamics on us.


 Even worse, more Americans out of work and business owners retiring to the Caymens.

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?shva=1#inbox/13675abf7609b1d2

Looks like Americans are en-mass becoming a bunch of quitters when it comes to actually building anything. My country disgusts me.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*frameless motor rotor*

Given that our domestic supplier got gobbled up by feriners I found this. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/303735301/NdFeB_Magnet.htmlc

I would have to put a ring on an index head and mill two trapezoidal slots in it's outer edge to press a north-south pair of these magnets into. With that design retention at high RPM would not depend on straps. Any three phase stator of the correct size could then be mounted. An alternator stator would be about the correct size but would turn too slow because of its many pole pairs. I'm not sure what type of non-conductive non-magnetic material I should turn the ring out of. At several thousand RPM the magnets would exert a considerable force on the dove-tail slots.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*Ah-ha moment (frameless pump motors)*

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/P...toid=f5c9b5bbec622110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD

I should have looked here first in my search. From their web site they have motors that could be utilize but price is the question. I'm going to a Parker store tomorrow for an FTF inquiry. Both their K500 and their 145STK2M would work. They are available in convection cooling and liquid cooled. In air cooled they can spin 500-1,500 RPM easily enough and have a rated power of up to 2032 Watts. For the 145STK2M 56mm ID, 145mm OD, 119mm length,6.2 Kg. I suspect the price will be too dear.


----------



## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

Hi. 
For a while I have been planning to convert my 1993 Subaru Legacy Automatic to EV. I have acquired a service manual for that very model giving quite comprehensive description of the internals and control of the tranny and TCU.
At first look it appears as the task of the TCU is very complicated. It certainly is as long as it has to collect 16 different parameters in order to control the six different solenoids inside the transmission itself. Most of the input signals are generated either by the driver, environment or the ICE and are less relevant for an EV. Actually the more I reflect on this matters the more obvious it gets and more appealing to ditch the transmission control unit and replace it with a few manually operated on/off switches. 
I will still need to operate the shifter lever to select Park, Reverse and Drive. All other functions inside the tranny are controlled via the solenoids and appear to be simple and easy to comprehend and control. 

These are the six solenoids:
Shift Solenoid #1 and #2. Together they determine which of the four speeds or gearing ratios is in effect. Two binary bits can have four different combinations. Here is used the Gray code which goes like 00, 01, 11, 10 when counting from one to four. Any step up or down changes only one bit at a time, elminating potential racing conditions between the solenoids.
Shift Solenoid #3, also referred as Engine Brake Control. I guess that this can without harm be kept constantly off unless you want regen.
Duty Solenoid A. This solenoid receives pulsed on/off signal in order to lower the oil pressure in some shifting operations. I believe this is not as important in an EV as it is with an ICE. I would be tempted to keep the pressure always at max and hope for the best. However this may need some more research.
Duty Solenoid B, Lockup control. This one locks up the torque converter whenever appropriate. The torque converter wastes a lot of motor power and I would be tempted to have it locked all the time. However if I want to increase takeoff torque or to be able to idle the motor at standstill this is the one to play with.
Duty Solenoid C, 4WD transfer control. This Subaru is a 4WD model. Being able to control manually when the rear wheels receive power is no drawback at all. Normally in off position unless driving conditions call for 4WD.

This all boils down to less than a handful of switches and controlling them in an EV seems to be very straightforward. For those with Arduino experience it could be a very interesting project to automate the operation of shift solenoids #1 and #2 to select gear ratios automatically as well as the lock-up solenoid for optimum driveability, efficiency or performance.

I have all the documentation I need to tap into the wiring between the TCU and the solenoids and monitor the solenoid signals with the vehicle is in operation. If that goes well I might even be tempted to disconnect the solenoids from the TCU and control them from manual switches. If that works successfully with the vehicle ICE-powered I can see no reason why it should not operate if converted to EV.

I have not checked into how other carmakers are implementing their transmissions, but I would not be surprised if some of the recent ones are similar. 
I would like to have feedback from those with experience and please blow the whistle if these tests I have described are likely to do some serious damage to my car. This Subaru is currently serving my wife as a daily driver and if I break it I will have to give a good explanation and probably have to look for a replacement (either car or wife).


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Opti-shift.

http://www.optishift.com/

Or something similar.

Miz


----------



## Max Clark (Apr 10, 2012)

Just starting the process and wanted to know the following concerning a Ford Focus conversion:
(1) Has anyone used the auto transmission in the Focus?
(2) If you did, could you provide some info regarding the speed sensing/shifting control?
(3) If this doesn't work...will a standard transmission bolt directly?
I hope this is the thread for this question..if not let me know which one i should use.
Thanks


----------



## Max Clark (Apr 10, 2012)

I've read all the thread and have decided to do the auto conversion. It will be aFord Focus with the 4F27E auto transmission. I've found toyota AE86 crank pulley and trigger wheel that should work great as a speed sensor...it also has a serpentine belt pulley which I can use to drive the AC compressor.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

*TH700R4 to Netgain 11"*

Reading up on the TH700 variants I find that some came behind diesels. On the diesel converter I've heard that they come attached to the flex plate with six bolts instead of the traditional three for gas engines. Also I've heard that these autos use a special governor to make the transmission play well with the lower speed, higher torque diesel. 
Would these be some of the parts I'd want in the rebuild for use behind a WarP 11?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jack Rickard has been talking about using a lower stall speed converter from a diesel in the trans for his Escalade.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

CoulombKid,
I wouldn't go too far out of your way to find diesel specific parts for a 700 if you are going to rebuild it anyway. There are plenty of high torque parts available for the 700 that would be cheaper than the rare diesel stuff. If you get a $50 governor recalibration kit you can get the shift points dialed in exactly where you need them. Any transmission shop should be able to set up a high torque 700r4.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Making a hybrid special purpose automatic is not new. Back in the late seventies I used to put the Ford C-6 transmission in pickups with the truck tail shaft and short tail shaft housing so that the customer got the towing upgrade from a 390 to a 460. It got popular and I got busy.
Because of that experience I'm leaning toward a diesel TH700R4 with the output shaft and tail shaft housing from a C4 Corvette (possible targeted glider).


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Since my manual transmission bit the dust I've been considering trying an auto, without the TC. The Fieros came with the TH125C transmission:
http://myfiero.oceanmoon.com/how-to/transmissions/the-ever-popular-th125
http://www.gearheadtrans.com/techinfo/gm_th125_tech.asp
I don't know much about these transmissions or how they behave, I'd have to figure out how much pressure they need from an external pump and where to plumb it in. I'd probably want to manual shift it since the auto shift points probably won't be right for my AC31 motor, and I doubt I'd want to use third gear at all.
If anyone has any info about these transmissions or what I might need to deal with in general feel free to chime in.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/building-ev-powerglide-transmission-77105.html


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for the link, don't know how it missed that one.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

The 4l60e Trans is all electric, has a of of aftermarket kits, including electronic controllers that let you pick the shift points. Also, it comes with all the upgrades you would likely have to build into an older 700r4.
As far as the diesel 700r4, had one behind a built 350, 4.10 gears, and 37" tires. I beat on that thing and it just kept going! 
I'd like to see a two speed, Corvair power glide transaxle used. It gives you trans, differential, and irs all in one package.


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I don't know much about these transmissions or how they behave, I'd have to figure out how much pressure they need from an external pump and where to plumb it in. I'd probably want to manual shift it since the auto shift points probably won't be right for my AC31 motor, and I doubt I'd want to use third gear at all.
> If anyone has any info about these transmissions or what I might need to deal with in general feel free to chime in.


Your best bet is a manual for the car transmission. It will tell you the different shift pressures for each gear, and how it is controlled. Good starting point.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The famous Ford Tin Lizzy (Model T) had a manual, two speed, planetary transmission. It was compact and bullet proof. (The cars originally had no brakes, you just pressed all the pedals to lock up the transmission and stop). It was made for almost twenty years. Some are still running in daily service in South America. Planetary transmissions work.

The biggest down sides to full automatics are: weight, size and drag.

Back in the early 1960's, Ford made a 2 speed Ford-O-Matic. Even though it had only two gears, it also had two planetaries. It was made 3 years or so and a real pain to find now-a-days.

The Aluminum powerglide is a whole other matter. It was made for About 12 years. It has become THE transmission for serious, repeatable, high or low powered drag racing. It is still around locally. All the parts are still being made. A host of aftermarket parts are made also. It only has one planetary......
It can handle up to 2,000HP, It can weigh as little as 60Lbs. It can be shortened up stupidly. It can be attached to anything.

Any transmission can be ran sans converter. A direct drive adapter can be made. An external pump can be plumbed in to keep it in gear when stopped.


But: Some have a pump pressure (Main throttle pressure) port. They can be plumbed in directly to the aux. pump. Others do not. Then you need to either drill the case, or drill the front pump out let manifold.

Most older transmissions have both hydraulically and vacuum sensed shifts.

Some transitional era transmissions had a hydraulic and cable throttled system.

Most late/computerized transmissions are hydraulic and electric controlled.


The hydraulic mode in all of them sets an overpressure threshold and will shift the transmission up (in drive) after the powerplant reaches a certain point, (a safety).

A lot of the EV ers that use a late/computer transmission, use an Opti-shift controller. It allows you to adjust/tailor the shifts to suit.

The transitional, cable controlled transmissions can be set up with a bell-crank linkage which sets the pot box in with the transmission cable on an adjustable throttle linkage, to be able to get auto shifts and adjustability.

The early vacuum shift transmissions need a manual valve body, or can be set up with solenoids to up shift with a button. Add to that and you have down shift too. Still further, add an ardunio board and an rpm sensor to have an automatic again.

Cost and reliability are a major concern.

Miz


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

When setting up a throttle valve (tv) cable on th350's and 700r4's, The set point, and geometry of the bracket through the curve, is extremely important. I had to make one for my jeep, although, kits are available.


----------



## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Since my manual transmission bit the dust I've been considering trying an auto, without the TC. The Fieros came with the TH125C transmission:
> http://myfiero.oceanmoon.com/how-to/transmissions/the-ever-popular-th125
> http://www.gearheadtrans.com/techinfo/gm_th125_tech.asp
> I don't know much about these transmissions or how they behave, I'd have to figure out how much pressure they need from an external pump and where to plumb it in. I'd probably want to manual shift it since the auto shift points probably won't be right for my AC31 motor, and I doubt I'd want to use third gear at all.
> If anyone has any info about these transmissions or what I might need to deal with in general feel free to chime in.


The Fiero had the torque converter solenoid that could lock the torque converter. I find this a plus because one can then program their transmission controller to lock the converter as soon as the pressure switch (I would install) in the transmission says "yes we have line pressure". The permissive rung, if you will, would also check other things for safety. 500 rpm/5 mph or better, high % pedal lockout, and so on. Using the feature this way eliminates the need for an expensive auxiliary pump. Also the PID motor idle requirement
might be dodged once several control timers had been massaged for their proper driveability values.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As for those who do not care for external pumps or plumbing, there is a good option.

Years ago, a group I was with, was developing a "Mule" type vehicle for the military. It used a very small Diesel engine for power and was required to have an automatic transmission. 

The first build (Mark 1), was poorly done. It used a small Borg Warner 3 speed auto. The little diesel was overwhelmed by it and the road speed and fuel mileage were terrible. After a lot of head scratching, we disassembled and rebuilt it several times before we got it acceptable.

It had an RPM range of 800-3500, and a torque band of 1000-3200RPM.

The torque converter was killing us.

We had a local rebuilder make us one. They used a small 8" converter from a Japanese auto and tightened up the clearances to finally get a 900 RPM stall speed.

The smaller diameter and lower stall was the hot deal. I wish we could have locked the converter at 1,200 RPM or so.

When playing with my AC50/powerglide, I would put it in gear (No pump) and slowly bring up the rpms until it would "thump" into gear. That was about 50-80 RPM.

If you take a 4L60 series,(with an Opti-shift) Have an 8", 500RPM stall, lock up type converter made, it would allow you to "idle" it at 50-80 RPM to stay in gear and pick up immediately on acceleration. An 8" converter is the diameter of the motor.......small.


Just food for thought. A way to use the trans as-is with only a converter change.

Miz


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Just food for thought. A way to use the trans as-is with only a converter change.
> 
> Miz


Ya Miz I think you are eating the wrong food, coverter change, ya just try and find a pump drive and spline to fit the 4l60e, or have someone make one lots of $$$$, a aux pump would be cheaper.

There i feel better....


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

The TH125 uses a chain drive between torque converter and the transmission. There are several chain ratios that can be used. Combining different chain ratios and differential ratios you can create a final drive ratio from 2.39 all the way to 3.73. There are 12 ratios in between. 

There are also rebuild kits available for it pretty cheap and some improvements/shift kits and servos for it. I have not seen a full manual valve body for one yet. I think a lot of the TH125 torque converters had 2000 rpm stall speeds. A converter shop should be able to build you a small diameter tight converter like miz suggested. Might save you a lot of work instead of messing with an auxillary pump. 

Check to see if you need different axles as well. Could be one more thing to spend money on. 

I hear the 125 is one of the easier ones for a beginner to rebuild. Also heard that it can have issues shifting to 2nd under high power. Don't know if that is due to the rpm or the power.

1st Gear = 2.84:1

2nd Gear = 1.60:1

3rd Gear =1:1


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One concern is the RPMs of my AC motor, up to 7500, and probably regular use around 4-6K. Can the TH125 handle that? What was the highest RPM motor it was mated to originally? Regarding the TC, getting a custom built TC is probably going to cost more than using an external pressure pump, depending on if there is an existing place to plumb the pump or if I'd need to modify the transmission the way Miz is doing with the Powerglide.
For axle shafts I'd be getting a donor car so I'd use those shafts, they are different than the manual. At least the passenger side is.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

For the drive ratios I'm looking at one of the earlier ones so I'd have the 3.18 drive ratio, which would give me 9.03 in first and 5.09 in second, compared to my current 12.50 and 6.83.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> Ya Miz I think you are eating the wrong food,


Ivan: There is a whole world out there. So, Get out of your cave, and see what has progressed in the last 50 years.

A converter builder is a professional. If a hack in Lake Havasu can bodge up a drive adapter, a pro can do wonders to a converter.

(Oh, I forgot. It was 1/2 of an adapter. You had to finish it after you got it.)

There are at least two converter rebuilders in my area, Transplant and someone named Hughs.

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Found this manual for the TH125: 
http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/Downloads/Tech Downloads/th125c_service_manual.pdf

Page 25 has the oil flow circuit, don't know if any of you can tell by looking at it if plumbing an external pump would be easy or not.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It looks like in figure A-3, that the "Line pressure tap" is where the aux. pump would go. Reason: That is the line that also has the main system relief.

Pump is a variable displacement model with 1 suction and 4 pressure circuits. All are limited by the main system relief and each are modulated by their own throttling valves.

The way the chain drive is on it makes me think it would be a cinch to do an Electric power conversion. The shifting points are another matter, but a proportional control with the pot 1 would be necessary.

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So if I put the output from the pump into that Line Pressure Tap where would I plumb the input for the pump? Tap into the pan? Also, any thoughts on how this trans would handle the higher RPM's? I wonder if the chain drive could handle those types of revs.


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> One concern is the RPMs of my AC motor, up to 7500, and probably regular use around 4-6K. Can the TH125 handle that? What was the highest RPM motor it was mated to originally? Regarding the TC, getting a custom built TC is probably going to cost more than using an external pressure pump, depending on if there is an existing place to plumb the pump or if I'd need to modify the transmission the way Miz is doing with the Powerglide.
> For axle shafts I'd be getting a donor car so I'd use those shafts, they are different than the manual. At least the passenger side is.


The TH125C used in the Fiero was used beside of the 2.5l I4, and the 2.8/ V6 and I think they were also used in some of the J2000 Sunbird turbos which were rated at 150 hp and that was probably the highest rpm motor it was used beside of and it would have redlined around 5500-6000. There were some Pontiac 6000s with a V6 diesel but I cant recall if they used the TH125C or the TH 440T4 trans. I think that if you use a V6 trans which has more clutch plates in the packs. If you want to get away from the converter and run a separate pump you will need around 80 - 100 psi at full power. The 125 uses a pump drive shaft that runs through the inside of the hollow input shaft so you could connect that to your drive motor which will run the stock pump and if you want the trans to stay in gear at zero rpm you could use a small electric pump that can produce about 30-40 psi and feed that through a check valve into the line pressure test port. The 125 should be able to take 7500 rpm briefly although you will be going pretty pretty fast even in low gear at that rpm. 
I hope this helps.
Tinkeringgreg


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> It looks like in figure A-3, that the "Line pressure tap" is where the aux. pump would go. Reason: That is the line that also has the main system relief.
> 
> Pump is a variable displacement model with 1 suction and 4 pressure circuits. All are limited by the main system relief and each are modulated by their own throttling valves.
> 
> ...


Miz the 125 pump has two outputs both are LINE pressure, the upper left connection is the control port from the pressure regulator valve and the right side port is a vent.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Most transmissions will draw from the pan. Or you can find a place on the case sides near where the dip stick goes and drill a hole there to get your oil (from out of the pan also).

My installation developed a small but annoying drip from my pan fittings....so I am going to drill a spot on the case to put a rigid pick up tube.

I will show that modification in my powerglide thread.

I am adding a 1Qt. deeper pan to my transmission also. Why? Because I got it cheap.



> Miz the 125 pump has two outputs both are LINE pressure, the upper left connection is the control port from the pressure regulator valve and the right side port is a vent.


Understood, but it only shows one pressure relief, meaning the pressure is equalized (balanced) through the pump passages for the whole transmission. There is a throttling valve for each circuit(manual shift, converter control, converter feed and throttle valve) for the individual down stream pressures. One relief does both sides, so one input tap will pressurize both sides. A simple air pressure check will test this. 

I still like my pressure tap directly in the pump high pressure side. It eliminates all error. (The powerglide has two separate pressure circuits and no common pressure test port. I only had initial engagement in low. I had to slowly start the motor turning when in reverse, then after that "clunk" of engagement, I could back up the car). 

I am investigating blocking the oil cooler valve and the converter bleed taps to eliminate a small parasitic pressure loss. It will just make any future cooler impossible to install. Otherwise a loop can be added to preserve a future cooler if required.(I don't pull a trailer, haul a load or have any large hills.)

Some transmissions use this cooler return oil to lube components. Check carefully before changing anything.

Miz


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

I Think the 125 does use the oil cooler return for lube oil as do most GM transmissions but running without a converter you wont generate much heat so a small cooler will work or no cooler at all if you are doing short trips. just make sure that the converter oil in and out circuits are kept open and connected together.

Tinkeringgreg


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> My installation developed a small but annoying drip from my pan fittings....so I am going to drill a spot on the case to put a rigid pick up tube.


How about just using the existing drain hole for a pickup, with a "T" fitting and a plug so you can still drain it?


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

You definitely want to take from a filtered source. Whether the pan filter, or in-line. With all the tight tolences, moving parts and seals, you dont want crap going through the system.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> How about just using the existing drain hole for a pickup, with a "T" fitting and a plug so you can still drain it?


That was exactly what I had. 

My problem was that the pan threads were a straight bolt thread. I needed 1/4"NPT, so, out came the 1/4NPT tap and problem solved. BUT, as anyone can tell you, pipe threads are not straight. They are tapered and are sensitive to the depth you insert the tap.....Oops, now the threads are a little too big and unknown to me, the nipple I used had bottomed out, so it sealed when first installed, it quickly loosened up with use and started dripping.......making a 1" diameter puddle in a weeks time. (No amount of thread sealer will seal this mess).

My new pan is a 4" deep finned, aluminum one. The drain is on the bottom. Not some place I would like fragile things to be. So, I opted for a new pick-up tube in a more protected place. Besides, I just like drilling holes where there were none before.



> You definitely want to take from a filtered source.


No, I do not need a filter. Sounds crazy? Most transmissions dont have filters, they have screens. They keep out the boulders only. (But a small one could be easily added to your new pick up tube).

The first automatic transmission I ever rebuilt (a 1962 Ford-o-matic) had a screen. My 1999 Ford F150 Lightning has a screen. A lot of transmissions offer a choice of screen or filter in their kits. 

The plan is to change the fluid at 25,000 miles and you are good for lifetime. You *did* change yours at 25,000 miles? (Shame on you).

An automatic transmission will tolerate a lot of particulates. 99% of that "dust" you see inside a pan is only paper from the clutches and bands. They stay relatively clean inside over their lifetime. If you have any other trash in your pan, you have had an "event" and a filter will not help.

BTW: I still have not given up on the small accumulator idea and eliminating the pump. The deeper pan us a precursor to experiments.

If I can find a way to get a speedo signal (VSS) from somewhere, I can cut off the output housing too, making the unit 11.5" shorter. 

The bellhousing can be cut off saving 4"-6" there. If a front mount is made for the transmission off of the pump bolts, it can be easily mounted between the frame rails . 

The motor does not have to be bolted to the transmission (eliminating a costly adapter plate). It would need a front and rear mount to be secure. 
The drive coupler would be the only connection between them.

<Sorry to ramble, that is what happens when I can not sleep> 

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This might make a converter-less auto mod easier:


> To make this whole exercise seamless, the Ford engineers had to develop some unique control algorithms for the engine and transmission because they wanted to keep the transmission in gear even with the engine off, as opposed to putting the transmission into neutral. Of course, because the operation of the engine is what ordinarily provides the internal hydraulic pressure within a transmission, and because the engine is off, supplementing those algorithms is an electrically driven pump that operates when the engine is off. “We don’t want to lose the pressure,” she says.


http://www.moldmakingtechnology.com/articles/electronics-enhance-fuel-economy-for-2013-ford-fusion


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The "Auto Start-Stop" system is like a hybrid without the electric drive system.

It stops everything at a light, then restarts on green to go.

A good idea and high time too!

Interesting they went to a pump and not an accumulator...Must be a story here, but we will never learn why not.

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think we know already, accumulator is probably more expensive than a pump, and might not hold pressure during an extended stop.
Stop start technology has been around for a while, more so in Europe than here in the states, but more are probably going to adapt it here now. Problem is the standard lead acid battery doesn't hold up very long under SS use so they have to go to advanced AGM, lithium, or possibly the new PbC from Axion.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Along that train of thought...Only the clutches that are applied through a hollow shaft have that leak down problem. Low in a Powerglide (and others) are a band applied by an external piston. 

A clutch pack needs the bushings to fit tight to seal in the pressure. As the trans gets older, the bushings wear and the leak gets larger.

The piston applied band is external. The piston will hold pressure forever if required, making low gear a great candidate for accumulator duty.

A really cheap accumulator can be made from a small hydraulic cylinder. The piston end is pressurized with nitrogen to one half the apply pressure. The rod end is connected to the port and fills with oil, compressing the nitrogen until unity is achieved. 

Miz


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> The piston applied band is external. The piston will hold pressure forever if required, making low gear a great candidate for accumulator duty.
> Miz


Plus, it wouldnt have to be of any substantial size to do it.

Has anyone considered doing a simple, planetary gear reduction between the motor and trans? Would there be any benefit to it? 1:1 just seems like a high gear ratio. Course, it probably depends on how heavy the vehicle is.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tinkeringgreg said:


> The 125 uses a pump drive shaft that runs through the inside of the hollow input shaft so you could connect that to your drive motor which will run the stock pump and if you want the trans to stay in gear at zero rpm you could use a small electric pump that can produce about 30-40 psi and feed that through a check valve into the line pressure test port.


Any thoughts on how to make an adapter to engage both inner and outer shafts? Can I just cut off the output from a TC and weld the inner and outer TC output couplings together, or would I need to cut open the whole converter? How deep inside the TC is the inner pump drive? Or should I weld the transmission shafts together, since I assume without a TC they no longer need to move independently? Trying to visualize how it would work. Miz, don't suppose you have a pic down inside your adapter?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's the EVWest shorty Powerglide they are using in the BMW


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You know, I never could understand why anyone would want to shorten a street powerglide... The part they cut off has the speed-o gears in it. (VSS)

That is a VERY expensive transmission. It looks to be all aftermarket parts. (I'm just jealous)

No, I dont have a pic of the inside of my coupler, sry.

But, The outer tube that has the two notches drives the pump gears directly. The inner splined piece is from the hub of the turbine wheel. Yes the converter must be cut apart to get at it.

Welding the pump drive tube to the input shaft would be really awkward when building the transmission. It goes through the stator support tube, the pump, the high pack hub, the sun gear, the "wedding band" and interfaces into the output shaft itself. There are many times when you need to trial fit things and it would be cumbersome, but it would work.

You could shorten it up a lot by cutting off the bell housing, Cut off the stator support tube, shorten the input shaft, shorten the pump drive tube, weld them together really short, and have your motor just insert into it (no flanges). 

Like this: 4L60 transmission,









Then build yourself a short extension housing to support the motor.(the red part)









Those pump drives are on sale for the powerglide.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Powerglide-Drive-Flange-Sleeve,5440.html $99-sleeve and inner splines










http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Power...re-86-2-Piece-Rear-Seal-Crankshaft,28985.html $79-flange for early engines










http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Powerglide-Drive-Flange-for-Small-Block-Chevy-Crate,49588.html $79-flange for late engines (Like I used)










These fit with any EV Chevy adapter plate/hub built to fit a manual transmission. Mine came from Can EV and was for the late Chevy V-6 transmission to a 9" DC motor. Just make sure it has 1/16"-1/8" freeplay when bolting the unit together. Mine did not. I had to shorten it some. 

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Now I'm confused, (even more), this pic shows three nested shafts going into the transmission, where the TH125 manual I've been looking at only shows two.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/84-FIERO-AU...&fits=Model:Fiero&hash=item19d4635bd5&vxp=mtr


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

All automatic transmissions have three.

Outer shell is the pump drive-always.(It is locked to and turns with the motor/converter, it is notched at the other end and turns the charge pump gears.)

Middle layer is the stator support tube.(It is locked to the pump shell and never turns-but has splines to hold the stator inside the converter.)

The inner most one is the input shaft. (It is splined at both ends. It is attached to the turbine wheel inside the converter and the forward clutch hub on the other end.) It is sometimes hollow to apply pressure to a converter lock-up clutch.


Most pump drives are welded to the converter and just notched into the pump gears, but there are some that have a stub out of the pump and spline to the converter-like this one.

The usual type is stabilized by the converter's pump drive "nose" running in a front bushing in the pump just behind the front seal/just before the gears.

This type looks to be stabilized by the stator tube. It is hard to say.

Either way a direct drive adapter can be made. It is quite simple once you have the transmission to look at. 

I hope I haven't confused you worse. Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I need to get my eyeballs on a transmission. It's been a while, and I never looked that close, just shoved a converter on and bolted it up. Part of my confusion is looking at figure 21 on page 48 of the TH125 manual I only see 2 shafts: http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/Downloads/Tech Downloads/th125c_service_manual.pdf


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

So it sounds like you need to make a sleeve that drives the inside and outside shafts but not the middle one. 

You may have good luck using a fiero throttle body since it has a 0-5v throttle position sensor and the transmission cable already on it. The cable and governor would still be set for ICE rpm and shiftpoints. 

On a different but related note: 
I had a brainstorm on how to drive a trans pump from a small e-motor mounted to the bellhousing. Basically the outer pump drive shaft is driven and spins independantly from the rest of the coupler. It would be a pain to make for most diy builders without a machine shop.

Might be quieter than the electric pump. I know some people are concerned about the noise of aux pumps on thier EV.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

After watching a few converter rebuild videos I'm wondering if I might just be able to get the parts I need from a rebuilder instead of cutting one apart, which doesn't look that easy without a lathe.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

hey JRP,
since you are in NY, there is a shop that only does torque converter modifications here on LI. Their website is http://www.protorque.com/ I had some dealings with them many years ago and they were not only good but very fair in their pricing.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks, that might prove useful, though I don't know if performance shops build converters for the TH125. Can't hurt to ask.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I don't think they are _all_ performance, I used to have them do stock ones with just a little strengthening and adjusting stall speed. I'm thinking they would take an interest in an EV project...like you say, worth a shot since that is all they do.
Mike


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

Hi Miz I hate to disagree but what you describe is true on most transmissions but the turbo hydramatic 125 has a different setup. the large outer splined shaft is the stator support which will not rotate, the middle shaft is the input or turbine shaft which can be rotated with some force and the smallest shaft is the pump drive which should turn somewhat easier. JPR3 I think an adapter could be made by cutting the converter apart and cut the small splined pump drive hub from the converter shell, cut the turbine shaft hub from the turbine and the outer smooth tube that goes through the seal then weld them all together in the proper relationship along with some way to connect it to the motor shaft. you will not need the biggest hub from the stator in your application. This will need to be a custom adapter that is built strait and true plus keep the fluid from leaking out of the trans. This part should be made by a machiene shop if you dont have the proper equipment or experience. 

Greg


----------



## tinkeringgreg (Mar 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah I need to get my eyeballs on a transmission. It's been a while, and I never looked that close, just shoved a converter on and bolted it up. Part of my confusion is looking at figure 21 on page 48 of the TH125 manual I only see 2 shafts: http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/Downloads/Tech Downloads/th125c_service_manual.pdf


Figure 21 does not show the pump drive shaft but if you look at figure 13 on page 46 part 18 is the pump shaft

Greg


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

An expert is always best.

It is *similar* to the Corvair Powerglide then. The input shaft on that one goes clear through the transmission and the converter is hung off the back. Everything is sort of inside out. We sorta stayed away from them as they were almost always "leakers".

I should have added the caveat of "RWD " transmissions. THX.

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tinkeringgreg said:


> This will need to be a custom adapter that is built strait and true plus keep the fluid from leaking out of the trans. This part should be made by a machiene shop if you dont have the proper equipment or experience.
> 
> Greg


Definitely, and that may be a problem since my machinist hasn't been reliable lately, (he's had my motor for my tractor project for three months now), I'm trying to find someone else in the area who is good, and reasonable, a tough combination. I talk myself in and out of doing this project at least 5 times a day  I can see this adapter getting expensive, plus my motor to bellhousing adapter might need to be modified if the length of this coupler ends up being different, which seems likely. 
Just so I'm clear, the outer spline in figure 21 on page 48, number 109 "Drive Sprocket Support, (Stator Shaft)", does not need to be engaged by the adapter, and number 106 "Shaft, Turbine", does need to be engaged, and also has the pump drive shaft going through it, though not shown, (number 18 in figure 13 on page 46), which also needs to be engaged.
So I'd need to have a tube made that slides into the transmission and seals, with the splines for the turbine shaft and pump drive shaft inside, properly oriented. And of course a flange on the end of that to bolt to a taper lock coupler on the motor.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

few2many said:


> Plus, it wouldnt have to be of any substantial size to do it.
> 
> Has anyone considered doing a simple, planetary gear reduction between the motor and trans? Would there be any benefit to it? 1:1 just seems like a high gear ratio. Course, it probably depends on how heavy the vehicle is.


I did think about using a Laycock type planetary overdrive unit working in reverse to reduce the motor speed.

Done right it could be a simple two speed unit with 1:1 top gear.
Would take some engineering to make it work though.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

In the past, when making things that have to be welded together straight, I have always made a fixture to assemble them on.

A piece of solid steel round stock that is stepped to duplicate the sizes of the transmission shafts. Just ignore the splines and use the O.D. or I.D. of them.

You then lightly press your pieces onto it.

Make sure they are beveled for welding.

After they cool, you usually have to press it out. It has always worked for me.

Some lathe turning to clean up the exterior and make a step for the pressed-in plug to seal in the oil.

If you are direct driving it, you can just include the motor shaft bore and keyway with out any flanges at all.

If you are chain driving it like the ICE, then you need a step and a flange to mount the original sprocket.

(An experienced machinist should know how to do this already.)

Miz


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I suppose stacking them on the actual transmission splines and welding or tacking them would not be a good idea?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> If you are direct driving it, you can just include the motor shaft bore and keyway with out any flanges at all.
> 
> If you are chain driving it like the ICE, then you need a step and a flange to mount the original sprocket.


Chain driving it? ICE bolts to the TC, I'd bolt the electric motor to the adapter.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ah, so you are not putting the motor where the ICE was. My mistake....


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

The chain drive is inside of the trans on the other side of the bell housing from the converter. I believe Jrp is using the e motor in the stock ice location. The chain drive would not be in involved in the motor to trans adapter. I think there was some confusion over the chain drive.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I think that rather perpetuate all this confusion, I am going to opt out of this discussion as none of anyone's descriptions mean anything to me. I am clueless, therefore unable to help.

Miz


----------



## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Some front wheel drive transaxles have the gear change parts right behind the torque converter. Some have the gear change parts offset and use large gears to transfer power, some use chains.
Consider the difference between an np208, and an np205 transfer case.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Miz, if you take a look at page 43 in the TH125 service manual 
http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/Downloads/Tech Downloads/th125c_service_manual.pdf figure 4 shows the chain drive on the "back" side, (left side), of the transmission, and the TC and motor go on the opposite, right side, of the transmission.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Miz,

I wasnt trying to bust your balls on the chain drive thing. Im really sorry if it sounded that way. Your input on this forum, especially concerning automatics has been and hopefully will continue to be a huge help.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think Miz was just having a bad day, he made a similar comment in his Powerglide thread.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm going for the TH125 automatic setup, details will be in my build thread.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321501&postcount=251


----------



## skeeterb (Feb 6, 2009)

are you talking about a front wheel drive transaxle when you are talking about the TH125, because the TH125C/3T40 3-speed automatic transaxle is what Pontiac put in some of the Grand Ams/Grand Prix in the late 80s to the mid-90s. I've been looking for information on that transaxle. I've recently purchased a 1990 Pontiac Grand Am service manual that has some pretty good info in it. What does it take to modify the TC to use it in an electric?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes the TH125 transaxle. I'm planning to eliminate the TC and go direct drive. Follow the link to my build thread for more data.


----------



## chickenman (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi, I am just starting my conversion. I have a 1979 ford van with the automatic. I don't get the mechanics altogether but it looks like I want to keep the Torque converter. THe van will be used on the farm for chores and to pull a trailer so want good torque. What more do I need to know to hook up to the automatic.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

You really don't need to know anything special to hook up the automatic if you are keeping the torque converter. It gets tricky when people are eliminating the torque converter. If you keep it then you can idle the electric motor which will keep the transmission pump running all the time like a gas motor. 

Other than setting the motor up to idle you will probably want to install a manual shift valve body in the transmission. You will have to shift manually but shifting will be way less often with the broad torque band of an electric motor. That would be the most simple option. 

The shift points in most automatics before the mid 90s were controlled by a vacuum modulator or a cable on the throttle.  You could hack these to control your shift points but that would be a bit of an engineering challenge because they were designed for the torque band of an internal combustion engine and an electric motor does not produce vacuum. The manual valve body would eliminate all automatic shifting.

So to sum it all up, if you keep the converter the only thing you really need to worry about is making it shift. You would not need any ev specific parts or pumps in the transmission.


----------



## chickenman (Apr 25, 2013)

I will need to get help with the valve body. How about if I take out the transmission altogether and hook directly to the drive line. It is simpler and since it is just a chore truck on the farm I don't need performance. I guess it would drive like a forklift.

David


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You would lose the gear reduction and torque multiplication of the transmission, which means the motor would be turning slowly and drawing high current most of the time. If it's just a low speed farm vehicle you might be better with a manual transmission and no clutch, or using a 4wd transfer case in low.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I agree that without a large gear reduction somewhere direct drive is a bad choice for a farm truck. If your original transmission was controlled by a vacuum modulator then it might stay stuck in 1st gear all the time with no vacuum. That would be better for farm duty. A transmission shop would probably be able to tell you that. 

The manual valve body is a well documented common part that comes with instructions and most transmission shops will install them. If you really wanted to use the automatic I think it would be the easiest solution.

Manual trans might be a better choice.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

This simple way might work for you- keep the transmission stock and use the torque converter. If the transmission is vacuum modulator controlled (it probably is for that model year), use a vacuum pump and reservoir (which you will need for the brakes if they are power brakes), tee off a line to the modulator. Most aftermarket modulators are adjustable (small screw inside the vacuum nipple on the modulator) so that will be used to adjust your shiift points since the vacuum doesn't vary as in a gas powered vehicle. You can usually set it to shift at @ 3000 rpm (or anywhere you desire)which is usually in a good torque range for the motor. Worked many times for us this way.
Mike


----------



## chickenman (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for these ideas and advice. To sum up:

to hook up the motor I think I want to get a coupler to slide over the shaft on the motor and weld it to the fly wheel which bolts to the torque converter. Bolt a plate to the motor which I can bolt to the transmission with the coupler in between and figure out how to mount the motor in the van. Then hook up the vacuum or the manual valve body thing or see if it just stays in low gear which might suit on the farm. I'll ask around about the manual transmission. If the vacuum works will I be able to change gears and, provided DMV gives me a tag, run this thing down the highway?

David 

p.s. I will be moving 5 miles down the road next month and may have to put this job on the back burner for a month. But I really want to get it done. The cherry on top will be the solar panel on the roof to keep the batteries charged.

I'll let you know how it goes - especially if I have trouble and need help.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Earlier in this thread it is mentioned that in certain transmissions you can use a tach input and put a 5k pot over the throttle position sensor and that pot will allow you to set the change points.
In my project, a 1995 BMW 318ti, I see there is a crankshaft position sensor and a throttle position sensor that feed into the main engine ecu, the DME. The DME connects to the transmission ecu.
I haven't worked out if it is going to be as simple as putting the original crankshaft toothed pulley with its sensor on the end of the electric motor and the throttle position sensor on the end of the throttle cable. There may be other inputs involved I haven't noticed yet, but it looks promising. 
So I'm wondering:
Why wouldn't you use the original throttle position sensor? 
What is it's role in the calculation? Is it just for kickdown or something? 
Do you need the 5k pot for adjustability? Would you still need it if you used the throttle position sensor?
Cheers
Richard


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

The original throttle position sensor would be ideal if you are leaving the original computer Ecu and fooling it into shifting for you. Most throttle position sensors (TPS) are halleffect sensors that require three wires: 5v refference, signal(output) and ground. You could leave your throttle body in the car and use the TPS as the throttle input into your controller if you wanted to. 

The role of the tps in the original ICE shifting logic is to communicate driver intent to the transmission.

Lots of throttle+low rpm+high load=Downshift command ie hill climb need rpm and power
Little throttle + high rpm+ low load=Upshift ie smooth nomal acceleration need less rpm and power

So yes its basically kickdown but not that simple. TPS is one of many inputs used in a complex algorithm to get the desired power the driver requests for each scenario. 

With an ev things change a little because the motor doesnt require the high rpm to make more power. Just give it more amps and away you go. The shiftpoints in the electric conversion would be more based on roadspeed than throttle position. A kickdown shift from a 30mph roll might not provide any aditional power with the electric motor. Your best bet is probably to have a gear for city and a gear for highway and have the shift logic only based on road speed.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks Dan. Exactly the info I was looking for. My approach with this conversion is to leave as much of the original electrical and instrumentation management as possible as it is and spoof inputs as needed. So if there is no harm to using the existing throttle position sensor then I will include it. I haven't looked how easy it will be yet to integrate it with the ev throttle box I have but I am sure it will be possible.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I believe the 3series bmw from that era had a large following for aftermarket motorsports applications. Pretty good chance there are peoe out there who can reprogram the ecu to set your shiftpoints where you need them. 

Depending on your controller the TPS could be the throttle. If it takes a hall input you could just use the TPS for both throttle and signal to the computer. 

The throttle evnetics sells looks to be just an automotive TPS attached to a lever. An oem tps is generally higher quality than most of the ev industry pot boxes anyway. Usually rated for millions of cycles and waterproof. 

Leaving the whole throttlebody in there is nice too since its already hooked to the cable and routed through the car. One less thing on the conversion to do list. That is assumung bmw wasnt drive by wire by 95.

Good luck.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks for this dual use idea. It's a Kelly controller. I will check the manual later. The throttle is wire driven and I had removed it but didn't damage it in the process. I will need to relocate it as it was mounted to the manifold block.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

DanGT86 said:


> Most throttle position sensors (TPS) are halleffect sensors that require three wires: 5v refference, signal(output) and ground.


I thought they were 5K pots? The Evnetics throttle is, and the one on my Fiero is.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

There he is talking about the car's original TPS and its input into the ECU.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

So I have the original TPS as in the attachment (cable connection hidden on other side). It has 3 wires - 5V, Ground, and Signal wire.

I am thinking I can connect one of these hall effect adaptors to my Kelly controller: 
http://www.evworks.com.au/zeva-digital-pot-adapter-use-hall-effect-throttles

So my remaining question then is how to connect the two, given I am also connecting the TPS to the ECU? Can I just split off each appropriate wire? 

Looks like I'll also need to connect the adaptor's 12V input to the ignition key circuit somewhere so that it only works when switched on.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Richard Wood said:


> So I have the original TPS as in the attachment (cable connection hidden on other side). It has 3 wires - 5V, Ground, and Signal wire.


Isn't that a three wire pot, not a hall effect? 



> This is a 5kohm resistive potentiometert 3 wire device with an arm you can connect the throttle cable to at various points depending on your pedal throw.
> Red wire for 5v, black for ground, and white carries the 0-5v throttle signal to your controller.


http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=throttlepot



> The TPS we use for our throttle assembly is actually a potentiometer. It's the same one as used by the OEMs, though, and they overwhelmingly prefer them to Hall effect for the usual reasons (good enough reliability; much lower cost).


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=253858&postcount=3


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes you appear correct. Let me back up the train after reading up on BMW TPS.

I have a 3-wire 4Kohm pot connected to the ECU delivering a 0.6v (closed) - 5v (open) signal and I want to also be translating that signal simultaneously to the Kelly controller's input.

What do I need to do, including in terms of wiring that in?

Richard


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Is the Kelly setup to use a 3 wire pot? If not can it be changed in programming?


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

I may have been mistaken about the evnetics throttle. It looks identical to the hall effect oem TPS that i have seen. Sorry if that was incorrect. Either way I have not encountered an automotive TPS that didnt take a 5v reference, and output a 0-5v signal. They work the same as most of the EV throttles I have seen. Thats why i was suggesting using it as throttle if it would save some fab work.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

The Kelly controller I have is pretty basic. It only has the 2 wire input.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

There is some good reading and smart board members in this thread comparing and discussing HE and Pot throttles. You may find an answer or get some advice there.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/tps-vs-hall-effect-throttle-61543.html


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks Dan. Yes on reflection this is quite narrow for this thread so I'll move my question over to that one, now fully formed


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

For reference, I'm using the 3 wire TPS sensor in my car as a two wire 5 k pot, leaving one wire disconnected. Probably wouldn't work in your situation since you are also trying to use it with three wires to signal the transmission, but you might give it a try.


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Back on this thread as I attempt to work out how I will control the auto transmission. Have been poring over the Bentley manual electrical diagrams for the 318 E36 cars looking at the engine and transmission computers.

Found the two devices at the back of the engine bay and they look okay from the outside. However the ECU isn't delivering a 5V base to the throttle sensor. I don't know yet whether there is a fault with it, or whether it purposely drops that voltage off when some other engine inputs are unplugged, or even perhaps because the transmission inputs are unplugged. Any thoughts on that welcome.

There are so many inputs and outputs to the ECU and it may be simpler just to throw it away (even though that may mean doing my own speedo and tacho inputs). So I'm focusing on identifying what would be needed to make the transmission computer work standalone. 

I've posted a question on the 318ti forum but will throw it in here as well in case anyone has relevant experience:

I've identified there are 6 wires from DME (engine computer) to TCM (transmission computer):

Four outputs from DME: 
Fuel Pump Control, 
DKV (input to the TCM of throttle position)
Fuel Consumption, 
A/C Compressor Control (input to TCM to account for added load) 

2 inputs to the DME:
Ignition Timing Interrupt (slow engine during gear change - is it needed?)
Drive Range Pin (to indicate Park or Neutral - not sure why - maybe a limiter?)

Why would fuel consumption be relevant to the TCM? And what is the relevance of the fuel pump relay control? I don't understand if these are outputs from the DME and TCM to other components, that they also connect to, or the TCM treats them as inputs.

The TCM has it's own sensors for incoming and outgoing speeds inside the transmission, so, given that and Dan's suggestion to just rely on speed for the shifts, what would I do with these 6 wires from the DME? 

Cheers
Richard


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

Did you ever figure anything out in regards to regaining control of the transmission computer? I don't know the particular unit you are working with, but the fuel consumption would be more likely the signal from the speed sensor so distance could be calculated.
The transmission control would need to sense load as well as engine speed and ground speed, throttle position and transmission temp. from there it can determine clutch apply pressures, shift points and engagement of the lock up converter if this model has one. Simply using speed sensing will require full pressure at all times to the clutch packs resulting in harsh shifting both up and down through the range, reverse selection would be savage resulting in a very uncomfortable ride. I f the clutch apply pressures were reduced the shifts would be softer but full load would result in a burnt out transmission.

T1 Terry


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

Hi Terry. Thanks for this information. It currently looks like a bit of a punt whether I could make this automatic gearbox work or not. The BMWs seem to have been quite advanced electronically even back in 1995. Therefore am taking some time to explore whether there are any 2-speed manual gearboxes that might do the job. It would be particularly useful if I can find a gearbox that is much smaller than regular and can fit back in the tunnel a bit. That would allow for the possibility of pushing the motor into the tunnel at least partially and putting all batteries in the front cavity. Perhaps I should be looking at some sort of overdrive unit, although I would like a neutral gear for safety.


----------



## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Sounds like a perfect application for a short tail shaft powerglide with the bellhousing removed. 

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=214&osCsid=63b61mk823r8cgikooi7h63t54

You probably dont need one for 1000hp so you could do something similar for less money.

A lenco transmission may also do the job in a small package but again its expensive. 

http://www.lencoracing.com/CS3MasterPage.html


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

A powerglide would be great for your car. Then you have to decide to use a torque converter or not. You can remove the bell housing yourself and make a coupler and adapter plate. Leave the tail housing as it contains the speedo drive and the slip yoke area for the drive shaft. Local transmission shops can do a low stall converter too. Lots of options there.

Watch using any racing two speed transmissions as they usually have straight cut gears and are really noisy, especially on a quiet EV.
Plus the ones with dog ring synchros as they have some slop in the couplers to facilitate shifting and when you let off power you get a clack, and another when you pick up the throttle again.

Want my suggestion? Get any reasonable sized three or four speed manual transmission with an aluminum case. (And never look back).

Miz


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

I am simultaneously looking at a couple of transmission paths forward now.

First would be to remove connection between Engine Computer and Transmission Computer, get everything mounted and then spoof anything that needs spoofing to allow the Transmission Computer to operate.

The second would be to go with a replacement simpler transmission - in which case scouring for a PowerGlide or other 2 speed option. I'll not be building my own so this could be expensive.

Follows is the existing auto transmission PIN situation I'm faced with. There are various things it seems I may need to spoof and I'd be interested in what people think about the items I've asterisked- what needs a sensible input and what might be able to be ignored or a fixed value for simplicity.


BMW 318ti Transmission Computer:

1 SHIFT LK SOL (output to shift lock)
2 AUTO MODE SIG (input from sport/manual switch) 
3 -
***4 IG TIMING INT (ignition timing output - to temporarily drop speed of motor)
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 GR RNG SIG (input indicating neutral or park)
***9 TI MEAS SIG (FL) (a fuel consumption input - may need to spoof)
10 A-PROD IND (input from sport/manual switch)
***11 FL PMP RLY CTRL (assuming an input, may need to spoof)
12 M-PROG IND (input from sport/manual switch)
13 TxD DATA LK (not applicable)
14 OUTPUT SPD (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
15 BK SW TEST SIG (not used)
16 -
17 OIL TEMP SIG (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
18 SPD SENS SHD (sensor shield)
19 GND (ground)
20 OUTPUT SPD (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
***21 A/C COMP ON (assuming an input, may need to spoof)
22 OIL TP SIG (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
23 GR RNG SIG L1 (input from gear selector)
24 -
25 RxD DATA LK (not applicable)
26 GR RNG SIG L2 (input from gear selector)
27 -
28 BATTERY VOLT (12v)
***29 FAULT IND SIG (input from instrument cluster, may need to spoof)
30 KICK-DOWN SIG (input from kick down switch)
31 MAN MODE SIG (input from sport/manual switch)
32 -
33 GR RNG SIG L4 (input from gear selector)
34 -
35 SHIFT LK GND (ground)
36 GND (ground)
***37 VOLT SUPPLY (relates to ECM RELAY, may need to spoof)
38 TCC SOL CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor) 
39 BK PDL POSIT (N/A to this car - cruise control)
40 HYD CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
41 HYD CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
42 -
43 SOL VAL 2 CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
44 -
45 BAND SOL CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
46 -
47 -
48 SOL VAL 1 CTRL (Transmission Vale Unit sensor)
49 - 
50 -
51 -
52 -
53 -
54 SOL GND CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)
***55 TPS SIGNAL (throttle input from ECU, will need to translate to)


----------



## Richard Wood (Jun 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> A powerglide would be great for your car. Then you have to decide to use a torque converter or not. You can remove the bell housing yourself and make a coupler and adapter plate. Leave the tail housing as it contains the speedo drive and the slip yoke area for the drive shaft. Local transmission shops can do a low stall converter too. Lots of options there.
> 
> Watch using any racing two speed transmissions as they usually have straight cut gears and are really noisy, especially on a quiet EV.
> Plus the ones with dog ring synchros as they have some slop in the couplers to facilitate shifting and when you let off power you get a clack, and another when you pick up the throttle again.
> ...


A PowerGlide sounds good to me if I can't get my head around the existing transmission computer. Am interested in the space saving of removing bell housing and tail and pushing motor into the tunnel, as I could put all my batteries in the front then. I see EV West are supplying such a PowerGlide at a price way out of my reach.
I want the car to be drivable by people who aren't manual drivers so a regular manual transmission with clutch, or however it's managed without, wouldn't be a goer.


----------



## T1 Terry (Jan 29, 2011)

The 2 sp PowerGlide is getting to be a very expensive box these days as they are becoming quite a rare item. I gave one away around 2yrs back as I just wanted to get it out of the shed, no regrets, hopefully the guy got some use out of it. The 3 sp BorgWarner in the EA Falcon that had the taxi pack upgrade were very strong and without the bellhousing and torque converter attached they are around the same size of the PowerGlide box. A hunt around the wreckers or auto shops that repaired taxi boxes might find one on a shelf you could pick up cheap, they were all mechanical, no computer to mess with but you do need to set the pressure modulating cable (kick down cable) up correctly to get a solid shift so the clutches don't burn but not that solid it snaps you neck. The rev in an auto is a nice addition, saves heaps of messing with the electrics.

T1 Terry


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

This is one of the times I am grateful for living in the States. Powerglides are available in my local newspaper or Craigslist for $75 - $400 (working used to rebuilt). We are spoiled in that regard to live in "Hotrodders Heaven" for both parts as well as lax laws for modified automobiles.

NOTE: You can not remove the tail housing to shorten the powerglide and keep the automatic shifting feature as the shift governor resides there. Also please note that to shorten the tailshaft you must disassemble the entire transmission. The output shaft is part of the front located planetary. AND one last important note: The part to do it is really expensive.

BMW 318ti Transmission Computer:

1 SHIFT LK SOL (output to shift lock) shifter lock....remove parts on shifter. do not hook up wires.
2 AUTO MODE SIG (input from sport/manual switch) Leave as is
3 -
***4 IG TIMING INT (ignition timing output - to temporarily drop speed of motor) unused
5 -
6 -
7 -
8 GR RNG SIG (input indicating neutral or park) Leave hooked up
***9 TI MEAS SIG (FL) (a fuel consumption input - (spoof, maybe can change this value to alter shift points)
10 A-PROD IND (input from sport/manual switch) Leave as is
***11 FL PMP RLY CTRL (spoof)
12 M-PROG IND (input from sport/manual switch)leave as is
13 TxD DATA LK (not applicable)
14 OUTPUT SPD (Transmission Valve Unit sensor) leave as is
15 BK SW TEST SIG (not used)
16 -
17 OIL TEMP SIG (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)not used
18 SPD SENS SHD (sensor shield)grounded
19 GND (ground)
20 OUTPUT SPD (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)not used
***21 A/C COMP ON (assuming an input, may need to spoof) not used
22 OIL TP SIG (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)not used
23 GR RNG SIG L1 (input from gear selector) leave as is
24 -
25 RxD DATA LK (not applicable)
26 GR RNG SIG L2 (input from gear selector)leave as is
27 -
28 BATTERY VOLT (12v)
***29 FAULT IND SIG (spoof)
30 KICK-DOWN SIG (input from kick down switch) leave
31 MAN MODE SIG (input from sport/manual switch)leave
32 -
33 GR RNG SIG L4 (input from gear selector)leave as is
34 -
35 SHIFT LK GND (ground)
36 GND (ground)
***37 VOLT SUPPLY (spoof)
38 TCC SOL CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused 
39 BK PDL POSIT (N/A to this car - cruise control)unused
40 HYD CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused
41 HYD CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused
42 -
43 SOL VAL 2 CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused
44 -
45 BAND SOL CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused
46 -
47 -
48 SOL VAL 1 CTRL (Transmission Vale Unit sensor)unused
49 - 
50 -
51 -
52 -
53 -
54 SOL GND CTRL (Transmission Valve Unit sensor)unused
***55 TPS SIGNAL (keep TPS switch to do this- must be hooked in synch to throttle pot or foot pedal movement.

(My guesses, hope it helps)

Miz


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Richard,
I am by no means a BMW guy, but it appears from my limited search there is a failsafe (limp mode) in the transmission that it will default to third gear (and also have reverse) if it loses CAN communication. maybe third and reverse will work for you? In my limited experience with bmw, they have way too many inputs required for things to work..very complicated.
also, these guys have a stand alone shift controller for some ZF auto transmissions, maybe the model you have?
https://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/Aftermarket/Products/

Also, maybe you have seen these explanations:

http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf

http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_ic100076.html

http://blog.bavauto.com/13580/bmw-automatic-transmission-fail-safe-or-limp-mode-warning-light/

Mike
EV-propulsion llc


----------



## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm not a certified or have a master degree but i been around cars all my life and I just want to shared my idea for those who want it to try it , don't know if will work but I'm going to try it my self in the near future, My idea of how to make the AT work with an electric motor is making the tranny think that is a gas motor whose running it.
Best regards 
J.J.


----------



## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Wow, this thread really progressed since I last posted. 



I reread the entire thing, and have a few observations. Hopefully some of this helps solve problems, or gives ideas for solutions, and that there aren't too many Captain Obvious moments. The main problems I noted was in trying to duplicate what the OEM did to work with ICE engines when it would have been better to eliminate the ICE controls altogether and build new controls to work with an Electric Motor.



The vacuum modulator on a GM TH350/400 could be replaced with a computer controlled electric servo. It doesn't need to be vacuum operated. All it's doing is using vacuum to pull on a lever, and the amount the lever is pulled determines the shift point. Any computer capable of taking a throttle input and RPM input would be able to control the servo, and the curve could be set to shift the trans at the appropriate time for an EM instead of an ICE. Same thing on a 700R4/2004R. The lockup converter on an 87 Chevy halfton with the 700R4 actually uses a firewall-mounted vacuum operated switch to lock the converter, and the shift cable is pretty much a throttle-operated version of the vacuum modulator. A servo could control the shifting on that as well, and the same computer could control the lockup. This would allow for lockup at any RPM in all gears. 



For folks who want to use a torque converter, there is no need to wait until the computer locks it, and it can be locked at any RPM. The torque converter is basically a clutch to allow the engine to run when the car is in gear and stopped. When the converter is locked, it's like a manual with the clutch out. The reason the OEMs don't lock the converter until around 40MPH is because the engine can actually be killed if the car goes too slowly with the converter locked. If you isolate the lockup wiring, you can make the converter lock at any RPM by simply applying voltage. Use an RPM sensor on the motor, and you can lock that converter at 1RPM if you want. 



There was concern about not using a torque converter, instead using a fluid coupler, which caused a hard impact on takeoff. There was mention about using a separate pump to drive the trans, but I wonder if a small pressure reservoir might do anything? What I'm thinking is something like what plumbers use to stop water hammering on a water heater. This is essentially a pressurized canister with a rubber bladder inside. My thought on this is a small canister pressurized to handle a couple hundred pounds would allow the trans pump to start, absorb the pressure shock, then once the pump is running it wouldn't affect pressures within the transmission. It would take some experimentation to get the right size, and it could be installed in a pressure test port right off the pressure side of the pump circuit.


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

I did not wish to trawl through 53 pages so a question: Has anyone used a cvt such as used in 2014 Corolla as opposed to a normal automatic? Is it feasible or not?


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

poprock said:


> I did not wish to trawl through 53 pages so a question: Has anyone used a cvt such as used in 2014 Corolla as opposed to a normal automatic? Is it feasible or not?


While a belt-and-variable-pulley CVT like this has very little in common with a conventional planetary-gear automatic, they do have two problematic features in common:

a torque converter (needed to avoid stalling an engine and superfluous with an electric motor), and
a hydraulic control system (to engage clutches in the planetary automatic, but to move the pulleys in the CVT)
The fix for the torque converter is to remove it, in both cases. Both need hydraulic fluid pumped, so in both cases some sort of external electric pump is the usual solution. Both need some sort of control which suits the motor... maybe what the CVT does for the engine wouldn't be horrible for the motor, but there is the issue of how it responds to load.

I can't see any point in dealing with these complexities or operating the complex and heavy CVT with an electric motor.

There have been previous discussions in this forum of CVTs; just do a Google search of _DIYElectricCar_ for "CVT". I didn't read them. Some will deal with the rubber belt CVTs found in snowmobiles and some DAF/Volvo cars; others may deal with the steel belt CVTs now found in that Corolla plus many Nissans, Subarus, etc.

There was a recent discussion of using the toroidal type of CVT, used by Nissan for a few more powerful cars, but I haven't found it yet. Regardless of the CVT design, I don't think it's worthwhile.


----------



## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Since this thread has been revived anyway, I'll make a late note about this...


Telco said:


> The vacuum modulator on a GM TH350/400 could be replaced with a computer controlled electric servo. It doesn't need to be vacuum operated. All it's doing is using vacuum to pull on a lever, and the amount the lever is pulled determines the shift point. Any computer capable of taking a throttle input and RPM input would be able to control the servo, and the curve could be set to shift the trans at the appropriate time for an EM instead of an ICE.


The vacuum signal indicates load. That would be analogous to current in an electric motor... but that doesn't mean that moving this lever in proportion to current would keep the motor in its most efficient operating condition. It would certainly be annoying to have the transmission shifting at all the wrong times as it does with an engine, responding to motor load, requiring the driver to "trick" the transmission into something closer to the desired gear with manipulation of the accelerator pedal.

It would make far more sense to me to abandon the transmission's original shift point determination, force it into a fully "manual" mode (details dependent on which transmission control system you're stuck with), and have the motor controller calculate the best gear for the current power demand and command that to the transmission. This also requires replacing the typical "accelerator = motor torque request" logic used in motor controllers with "accelerator = power" or at least "accelerator = transmission output torque request". Wow, that's a lot of work to adapt the wrong transmission to the application.


----------



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Thank you for your reply. As I suspected, far too complicated for a simple mind like mine. I will stick with the present 4s manual clutchless.


----------

