# EP Junior burned out



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Citystromer said:


> I had my EP junior running a couple of hours. I didn`t in particular mind the 50 Hz humming sound it made. until it quit. And smelled.
> Uppon inspection I noticed soon that both 1200V 600A IGBT`s where shut.
> Good thing that the company promised to send all necessary replacement parts, after all there is a one year guarantee.
> Unfortunately they promised that already a month ago, and still are, now they say that they are waiting for the electronics board and thas soon as they`ll get it they`ll send everything.
> ...


Thanks for posting your experience, Citystromer. Many of us here - including long time members like me, major, and gottdi - were extremely skeptical of Paul Zigouras and EPC but you actually proved our skepticism was well founded.

Unfortunately, the only other people I know of that have tried EPC controllers Greenshed Conversions:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-has-anybody-used-controller-these-61244.html

This is an auto-archive of the EVDL mailing list but the thread should all be there.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Thanks for posting your experience, Citystromer. Many of us here - including long time members like me, major, and gottdi - were extremely skeptical of Paul Zigouras and EPC but you actually proved our skepticism was well founded.
> 
> Unfortunately, the only other people I know of that have tried EPC controllers Greenshed Conversions:
> 
> ...


Umm, excuse me "Mr. Genius", but Wilderness EV has been using our EP-Junior controllers for over a year now, and they've NEVER had a problem with ANY of them. 

But again, they never put high voltage to the 12V input side either... which is pretty obvious that this guy did.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Umm, excuse me "Mr. Genius", but Wilderness EV has been using our EP-Junior controllers for over a year now, and they've NEVER had a problem with ANY of them.
> 
> But again, they never put high voltage to the 12V input side either... which is pretty obvious that this guy did.


I just looked all around the Wilderness EV web site and see no mention of EP products what so ever. Please provide some proof of that statement.

And why does your controller have a 12V input side?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. I've sent an email to Wilderness EV asking them to relate their experience with the EPC controller on this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55160

JR


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Just found that the vehicle this EP-Junior was in had +144 volts of live potential on the chassis. You're not supposed to put 144 volts into the 12 volt input or ground.

Luckily, our no-fault warranty covers this. EVnetics does not, by the way.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> I just looked all around the Wilderness EV web site and see no mention of EP products what so ever. Please provide some proof of that statement.
> 
> And why does your controller have a 12V input side?


On the EP-Junior, the 12 volt input runs the primary electronics.

The EP-1000's electronics run off the high voltage pack, but you need +12V to turn them on (it activates the HV relay). In the EP-1000, this isolates the electronics from the 12V side, so even if you do put high voltage to the 12V input, the most it will do is pop the relay.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> Umm, excuse me "Mr. Genius", but Wilderness EV has been using our EP-Junior controllers for over a year now, and they've NEVER had a problem with ANY of them.
> 
> But again, they never put high voltage to the 12V input side either... which is pretty obvious that this guy did.



Oh! The guys that would sell you this quality item? That explains a lot.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2011)

By the way, nothing showing any one using any sort of controller. Maybe they are selling them in their quality kits. 

Do you have any documentation yet so we can all have a look? Or are you afraid to post what we already know. You still have not provided a list of folks using these controllers for us to talk to directly. Meaning those who have them installed in EV's. Not on some wall in some out of the way factory. I'd still be skeptical of using them on my expensive equipment in the factory too. Might be that the others who sell similar units are pissed because your selling garbage, not because yours is superior.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Umm, excuse me "Mr. Genius"


I'm no genius, I'm just not incompetent (or a fraud).



PZigouras said:


> But again, they never put high voltage to the 12V input side either... which is pretty obvious that this guy did.


Citystromer said his controller worked:



Citystromer said:


> I had my EP junior running a couple of hours...


So I'd say you need to come up with a better explanation.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> ...
> Luckily, our no-fault warranty covers this. EVnetics does not, by the way.


How do you know what we cover and what we don't? We have only denied warranty repair to *one* customer and that was because they removed the anti-tamper seal (ie - they obviously attempted to disassemble the controller). We even repaired a controller that filled up with water because the ethernet cap was left off.

Oh, don't mention "Evnetics" in your ebay listings ever again.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Oh! The guys that would sell you this quality item? That explains a lot.


I must be missing something... it looks like a female spine welded to a motor shaft coupler.... isn't that how all couplers are made???


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Oh, don't mention "Evnetics" in your ebay listings ever again.


We won't. It's embarrasing.

Since the EP-1000 can handle TWICE the power of the Soliton 1, we don't even consider it competition.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Since the EP-1000 can handle TWICE the power of the Soliton 1, we don't even consider it competition.


Possible. But the Soliton has proven to handle it longer...

Oh, and short circuits don't count!


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> I must be missing something... it looks like a female spine welded to a motor shaft coupler.... isn't that how all couplers are made???


Well, sorta. But I was thinking more on the lines of this one as being quality clutchless coupler. By the way, Evnetics is way out of your league. Don't even go there.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Ha! This is turning funny.

My controller is the best. It will last for years if left unplugged on a shelf. It's also the most reliable: you can drop it from an airplane and it'll work just fine all the way down to 1" off the ground!!! It's great!!!

JR


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Jeez, what did this PZigouras guy say/do to upset so many of you...


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2011)

Bowser330 said:


> Jeez, what did this PZigouras guy say/do to upset so many of you...


Follow all his threads and you will find out. 

Pretty simple to figure out.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Qer said:


> Possible. But the Soliton has proven to handle it longer...
> 
> Oh, and short circuits don't count!


 
With liquid cooling and a big enough radiator, the Soliton 1 may be able to go longer. But with air cooling only, I think we have them beat because of the larger heat sink area. Plus, running at about 97% efficiency, the EP-1000's heatsink doesn't get very warm to begin with.

I think this calls for a towing-a-boat-uphill test.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2011)

You gonna supply the controller, truck and boat to prove your point? I'll drive.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Well, sorta. But I was thinking more on the lines of this one as being quality clutchless coupler. By the way, Evnetics is way out of your league. Don't even go there.


But is a shock-absorbing coupler really necessary? I don't have cushioned couplers on any of my cars, and they all seem to work fine. But then again, the only time I ever really shift is when I go into reverse.

Does it make a big difference when you shift?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Citystromer said:


> The controller actually consists of only a very simple drive circuit and two paralleled IGBT`s on one gateresistor for 2inch long gatewires.


Since you already peeked inside the infamous EPC controller, do you mind posting some pics here so we can all marvel at this gem of EV engineering?

If controller comes with no caps and no freewheeling diode and no current limiting, that pretty much leaves putting 2 IGBTs in a NEMA box and calling it a fine product. No wonder its price competitive


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

dimitri said:


> Since you already peeked inside the infamous EPC controller, do you mind posting some pics here so we can all marvel at this gem of EV engineering?
> 
> If controller comes with no caps and no freewheeling diode and no current limiting, that pretty much leaves putting 2 IGBTs in a NEMA box and calling it a fine product. No wonder its price competitive


Keep in mind that only the $899.00 EP-Junior comes this way. 

The full version (MSRP is $1288.00) comes with a built-in 7200 uf capacitor bank, and 90-amp (heatsinked) freewheel diode. However, due to the capacitor bank, the maximum voltage is only 200V. 

The $899.00 unit will go up to 350 volts, with our EP-5350 external capacitor bank. We also have a 270-amp external diode available for larger motors.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2011)

PZigouras said:


> But is a shock-absorbing coupler really necessary? I don't have cushioned couplers on any of my cars, and they all seem to work fine. But then again, the only time I ever really shift is when I go into reverse.
> 
> Does it make a big difference when you shift?


I think a shock absorber is needed if your going to put the hammer down. Thats lots of torque applied to the shafts and if you have some give it won't twist them apart. I actually use a flywheel and clutch. 

Your gonna loose the battle of the controllers. If all it takes is a couple igbt's and freewheel diodes and a few caps and some sort of circuit board to put a throttle to then I can go build one myself in my garage and don't need any thing else. Prime for public acceptance. Dang, Im gonna be rich beyond belief. Hell, I'd buy your product and sell it to China and let them pay me so they can reverse engineer it. Oh wait these are not controllers, there nothing but industrial throttle boxes. No need for any safe guards there but on the public roads, yes you do.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

EPC controllers have several safe guards built into them. They won't limit the current when your foot is all the way on the floor, but other than that, they seem to regulate everything just fine.

I've driven EPC controllers on public roads quite a bit, and I've never had a problem with any of them. The noise is noticeable, but other than that, I've never really had a driveability problem that relates directly back to the controller. 

I'm sure if there was a major flaw in the design, it would have shown up by now. They may not be pretty, but they work great as far as I'm concerned.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2011)

But to sell them it is us that needs to be concerned. All this bickering and fighting is totally useless and will only push your product further away. You need to show, prove and have others available to talk to. Talking to you only will not win any of us. We will be your hardest sell. Hands down. I'd say your not even in the realm of the Soliton1, Warp Drive, Zilla or Synkromotive but if your product is good and safe then you must show it. You have been unwilling from the start and that has won little to nothing for you. For us it is a joke and will remain so until you do something about it. We are quick to make someone the brunt of the hammer and you are but one of a bunch. I as well as you already know a bunch of others that have my full respect will hammer you flat. I thought bad things about a few on this site until they proved and they now have one of the best ever products I have seen come from the ground up to be the true top dog in this dog eat dog business. Be ready, pit pulls reside here.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Gottdi, I'm probably pulling a stupid here (or maybe not enough resolution in the photo or my eyes). My adapter that I made myself looks a little rough but works great. I do see one thing in the picture, I would grind the weld flat where the washers are so they sit flat, is that all?


gottdi said:


> Oh! The guys that would sell you this quality item? That explains a lot.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi David,

The adapter looks Ok-ish for a home made,
I was going to make something similar 
But a bit lacking for shop bought adapter


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> With liquid cooling and a big enough radiator, the Soliton 1 may be able to go longer.


I wasn't talking bursts as much as still working the next day, though...



PZigouras said:


> Plus, running at about 97% efficiency, the EP-1000's heatsink doesn't get very warm to begin with.


If you, for example, short a controller the losses will quickly ramp up to close to 100% (ie efficiency drops like a stone towards 0%) where the only part of the wasted power that is not controller loss is losses in the cables. The other extreme is when the controller is 100% on and the only loss is the voltage drop over the (fully open) transistor(s) which means that a controller (any controller or switch regulator) is getting as close to 100% efficient as it can possibly come.

Efficiency is never a fixed number for a controller (or anything that's switching voltages like a controller). Efficiency is a function of losses AND output power, so at what output power (voltage and current) is your controller 97% efficient?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2011)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Gottdi, I'm probably pulling a stupid here (or maybe not enough resolution in the photo or my eyes). My adapter that I made myself looks a little rough but works great. I do see one thing in the picture, I would grind the weld flat where the washers are so they sit flat, is that all?


I won't say a darn thing about anyones home made adaptors. But if it comes from a company selling kits I'd expect way better. The one I showed does come in a kit. The other nice one was home built.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Qer said:


> Efficiency is never a fixed number for a controller (or anything that's switching voltages like a controller). Efficiency is a function of losses AND output power, so at what output power (voltage and current) is your controller 97% efficient?


Our 97% efficiency was at 144 volts, moderate to hard driving (120 to 250 amps), for about 15 minutes. The heat sink was almost cold during this test, with no cooling fans.

The efficiency will probably drop a little if using lower voltages and much higher amperage. The motor's setup has a lot to do with it too, but in any case, we have never had to use cooling fans.


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