# AC Controllers



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> ...an AC controller that can do 160 volts and 600 amps and ... be in the $1600 price range?


That's a very ambitious price... I certainly couldn't make an inverter with those specs that cheaply. I suppose with all-Chinese parts and labor it would be possible, though.

Anyway, this is still pretty close to Curtis 1238 performance, but for just a little bit less money and without the name recognition/reputation. It sounds like a tough sell to me, especially for a market that currently sits at about 100-200 units per year, total.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ditto.

Where I would like to see a higher voltage controller, it would take a LOT of confidence to allow me to switch from the Curtis product to a relatively unknown.

Miz


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

That's lower than the Curtis 144V controller's max V of 170V Pete (unless you mean nominal). I looked at using the Curtis 144V but the incremental improvement on range and reducing currents didn't seem worth the significant cost when I included cost of new rear springs for more batteries (camber is already out a bit), upgrade of heater relay to higher voltage contactors, etc...I'll upgrade in 3 or 4 more years if (1) I can get higher energy density cells that enable me to go to 30kWh pack or greater with negligible increase in weight, and (2) a motor/controller that run at > 250V, preferably 350V - at less than $12k for 1 & 2 together. Will be a lot more choices in manufactured EVs then.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

We are fully aware of the market issue. Evnetics has dealt with that and frankly the DIY community is really not a good market. No interest in AC from them either at least for a budget minded AC system. Higher voltages would be good and I would like to see being able to go to 192 volts nominal and remain at around 600 to 700 amps. For the lower voltage systems it would be a good improvement. It will be a CAN enabled controller so that means if you want you can do some extra goodies too. Kinda like apps for your smart phone. 

I see no reason the price point can't be done and neither does the company that is thinking about doing this. I also think it can be done in a nice small light weight package instead of the monster heavy bombs we already have in the DC and AC market. 

Somehow it fails to get my goat but I do recall Evnetics being on the side of an absolute nobody and had to prove its worth. I don't expect any different for ANY company. Curtis at one point was a nobody too. 

So the question is any one interested? Its not about are they good. It is only a question about interest. Features you'd like to see. If it is going to sell it HAS to be GOOD. 


Seeing the EV businesses grow and the OEM's filling the market I can surly see that the DIY market is going to be a tough sell no matter what. Even with proven equipment it is still a tough sell. 

Every one starts on the bottom. Those that are crap go in the crap heap. Nothing more need be said. Having new good reliable equipment available would be good for our DIY builds. 

I am interested in more than a basic Curtis. I am also interested in something that is not going to require special external software to operate either. I am interested in good power, reliability and features that can be added into via an external box to enhance the product. I am also interested in much smaller size and weight. Weight does not mean its any better than the another. 

Anyway just thought I'd toss it out to see what others would like. 

Just so you all know, I don't want a cheap piece of crap either.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Windows environment.

Built in water cooling.

Small size. (as possible)

Miz


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sealed

Serial broadcast output

Supports all encoder aignals

Supports Bldc and ac induction


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The new Curtis sees my individual cells and pack voltage via CAN to my Orion bms, and can cutback the throttle and regen. It might be nice allow this function to be controlled from the bms as well.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You mean to control the regen cut back via the BMS as well as the controller?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea. Right now, it is a function of the controller and it is able to get the data from the Orion. I have grown to like the pc profile format of the Orion that is then downloaded into the Orion. I suppose it does not really matter which one makes the decision, but it would be nice to download a single profile into the Orion that would have all of my limits, cutoffs and derating all in one.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

That does seem like a very attractive price and makes it competitive even with surplus industrial VFDs which run about $1000 to $2000 for 50-100 HP. Making it better suited to vehicle applications also gives it much value added by eliminating the trial and error of setting up an industrial VFD for torque control, and making it work well on a DC battery pack.

I think it would be best to design it for 230 VAC and up to 400 VDC, so that it could be used on standard industrial motors as well. 600 V IGBTs and other components are fairly standard and not much more expensive than the 400V or 300V that are needed for a 160V system. Ideally it could be made modular and configurable so that the same basic control board can be used with various power components to suit most needs.

Personally, at this time, I am more interested in smaller units for tractors and utility vehicles, so perhaps something like a 10 kW unit could be offered for, say, $400? I think there is a potential market for electric tractors and other machines and a well made retrofit kit, with a 10-15 HP motor, weatherized controller, and a 5-10 kWh battery pack, would be a nice package if it could be done for about $1500 or so. For homeowner use tractors, lead-acid batteries are quite appropriate and could be $500 or so. For commercial use, a "quick-swap" lithium pack might be ideal, where it would just need to handle a typical 1-2 hour mowing job while the spare pack is charging. That's a bit off-topic, but I think if smaller three phase motors and controllers become more affordable and easier to use for the DIY market, it may help swing people from old forklift motors to more efficient AC systems.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> What would be the true interest in an AC controller that can do 160 volts and 600 amps and use open industrial CAN standard J1939 so external devices like the GEVCU can be used to enhance the programmability and functionality of the controller and be in the $1600 price range? Looking for real interest in such a controller. It could open the market for a very affordable AC controller that can be used with a variety of lower voltage AC motors like HPEVS line of motors and open the AC market to DIY with a bit more powerful controller than what Curtis is offering right now. An extra bit of voltage and that extra 100 amps would make any AC-50, 75 and dual 35's just sing. Run dual AC controllers for the extra punch. Maybe even double up an AC-50 or 75 for some real fun. This is a starting point but with a very real possibility to actually happen. More likely than not it should be water cooled but could be air cooled so you don't need the added complexity of the water cooling system. Not yet sure on that. I will ask.
> 
> Pete


If that controller can be made and or a big monster that is a basic controller for us few hot rodders here , me and a lot of people would be all in . $10,000.00 for a good Hp system makes me want to go back to gas sometimes .


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree, higher voltage with up to 600A means good performance from industrial motors. Also, a range of input options for throttle, regen and remote on/off isolation would be good. Light/small make it perfect for motorcycles as well. 
A good feature is tethering or piggy-backing to run multiple controllers in one vehicle, like a Curtis can, but then some basic electronic differential function and you're set.
A key feature that would help sales no end would be optional outputs that simulate ICE signals for more modern vehicles to trick ECUs and traction control or ABS which are features we all like to keep but either lose through using older or simpler donors or by not having knowledge or devices to trick the oe controls to maintain these functions. I imagine this would benefit registration also as we would not be losing safety features often required to re-register a vehicle. I agree with PS Tech Paul that making the controller core components modular will allow specing appropriate output for the customer's needs. 

What timescales are we expecting with this product? Is there a website or page we can follow for updates?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> A good feature is tethering or piggy-backing to run multiple controllers in one vehicle, like a Curtis can, but then some basic electronic differential function and you're set.


What is tethering and where can I find something out about it?
Is it like paralleling controllers?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes. Setting a master controller into which you send throttle inputs etc, and then that controller 'talks' to the others to ensure all do the same work. Good products also have an effective sort of differential. But running in torque mode provides this anyway. 

Curtis has this feature in their controllers where you can chain up to 4 I think, and tell one to be the master. Very useful. 

You could effect the same results by running separate controllers and just have a central processor that receives the inputs and duplicates them for all controllers. Depends on your requirements.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> . But running in torque mode provides this anyway.
> 
> Curtis has this feature in their controllers where you can chain up to 4 I think, and tell one to be the master.
> .


Tyler, what is a quick explanation of "torque mode"?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Tyler, what is a quick explanation of "torque mode"?


Torque mode = Throttle controls motor torque rather than speed. This is a highly desirable mode of operation for an EV motor controller.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

I think there is big interest depending on the specs. There is a lot of PMAC motors that need higher then 300hz frequency. As well maybe some higher PWM frequency then what is offered.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

As Tess says. Basically the controller delivers the current proportional to the throttle position. Current makes torque. Hence torque mode. 

For industrial applications you want to run at a fixed speed/rpm for cutting material and so the controller delivers how ever much current is needed to maintain the speed. A bit like a diesel at idle where you can ride the clutch and the with keeps the revs at idle speed. 

Torque mode is desirable as the delivery of power is proportional to throttle so much like an ice when driving.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> As Tess says. Basically the controller delivers the current proportional to the throttle position. Current makes torque. Hence torque mode.
> 
> For industrial applications you want to run at a fixed speed/rpm for cutting material and so the controller delivers how ever much current is needed to maintain the speed. A bit like a diesel at idle where you can ride the clutch and the with keeps the revs at idle speed.
> 
> Torque mode is desirable as the delivery of power is proportional to throttle so much like an ice when driving.


 Its based on the amps flowing in the motor as well.

I have torque throttle on my controller and its AMAZING. Its actually better then driving a ICE because the torque curve is flat so you give it 50% throttle and it accelerates at 50% up too the max speed that amount of torque can produce.


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