# [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No one commented on these guys a while back.
http://www.lionev.com/

Li-Po powered cars in the $30k range.
Prismatic cells that put out 2100 amps :-O

I queried the website as well, to see what portion of the cost was in batteries and got this response: its basically a $20k car with ~$10K in lithium polymer batteries by Hypercell. Anyone know of these cells?

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Contact Form.


Hello Mike,

Our cells are manuactured for us by Hypercell, and MIT, with some assembly work being done by Huanyu for us.

Yes, they are often called softpacks. Technically we use two types, Prismatic, and Polymer. Both are flat packs.

The 24 KWh are designed to go in to existing EV's replacing their old lead packs. The design makes them an easy retrofit, but pricey. The price on those though is finally starting to move down as product is being brought in. Price on our bigger unit, the 43.5 KWh pack has come down 30% since January, I would expect the same of the 24 KWh pack once more buyers step up to the plate. I would expect that by the end of the year you will see the smaller pack sell for about 4 to 5 times the price of traditional lead packs, but with a lifetime of service. I would suggest putting a request for quote through around December of this year. Right now the buyers for this pack are high end, high performance EV's who have big budgets.

The packs are available through Ampmobiles.com

The Prismatic high performance cell we make will give you 2,100 amps. We limit the polymer internally to 600 amps.

Ken
LionEV.com


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Contact Form.
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, August 05, 2007 10:36 pm
To: [email protected]

First Name : Mike 
Last Name : Willmon
Email : [email protected]

Comments : Who's cells are you using? They look like soft packs similar to the Kokam's.

How much will a 24 KWH pack be selling for? ...and where will I be able to get one?

How much current can a single string of 200AH cells provide?


Thanks for the information.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

my main concern is the lack of specifics.
specific car, specs and specific price

if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression that 
they were not ready yet

Dan



> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > http://www.lionev.com/
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the lot of 1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger will be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 and $32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition. They list the options package, although the specific details on the Lithium-polymer pack is lacking. So that is why I sent the website a query and recieved their response the next day. It appears from looking at prices of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with $10K Li-Po pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module). Its kinda vague if the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power charger is separate. Or if both versions of the charge are separate. Along with more specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying them on the charger as well. Just wondered if anyone else has contacted them on what they are offering.

It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com and http://www.ev-america.com will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for pricing and ordering.

But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH Prismatic and Ploymer cells that I'd like to get the information on. They indicate a 24Kwh and 43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid conversions. Although no definite prices yet their response indicated 4x - 5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost. When NiMH were in that range I think people were already buying them. I know everyone will be hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait. 

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> my main concern is the lack of specifics.
> specific car, specs and specific price
> 
> if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression 
> that 
> they were not ready yet
> 
> Dan
> 


> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > > http://www.lionev.com/
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the lot of 1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger will be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 and $32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition. They list the options package, although the specific details on the Lithium-polymer pack is lacking.
> ah yes, my bad. I confused the uncertainty about the battery packs with
> the lack of any detail.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This was talked about a bit previously.. they may have put out more
info, or different info, but early on LIonEV said their 'rough price'
for a pack that 'would take a car 100 miles' was 20k.

We also heard from Ampmobile that he -might- sell packs at somewhere
between 10k and 15k.

Essentially, they are working on a traditional B2B relationship,
marking up Keystone or more (probably 200% or so) to retail to
discourage purchasing outside their network/converters, and indeed it
seems they are not anywhere as interested in selling generic cells, or
generic packs as they are complete autos.

That's fine.. I get that they don't want folks to dilute their
agreements with the converters and start doing it themselves... in
theory that's lost revenue for the converters.. but that's the masses
though. We're gonna do this ourselves regardless, as far as I can tell
 It seems a little short sighted that the manufacturers of these
new cells don't talk to the EAA and/or offer some of the more
obviously prominent folks here on the EVDL deals to get stuff at cost
to generate good vibes. A123 has made a small start in sponsoring
KillaCycle and now murmurs of White Zombie..Hawker sponsors WZ
already, from what I have read.., but again.. you would think they
would understand the value of the day in, day out experience of
hundreds of greasy knuckled guys who've been doin' this with lead for
20+ years.

Why wouldn't they want guys drivin' around with good conversions and a
sticker that says 'powered by LionEV' on it?  Hey they could inspect
the conversion and make sure it met their standards. Worst case, they
didn't lose any money if they sold at cost + trouble. They can refund
the trouble money if the conversion looks good. Simple.

That probably doesn't fit their business plan though.

>;-)

--T

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

By the way.. I -love- what they are doing in the way of conversions..
I hope folks don't think that I don't like their stuff! If their
conversions are anything like advertised, and at that price point, we
have a contender for mid range EV that is actually affordable to the
masses.

And for me, that alone is something to celebrate 

--T

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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have also contacted LionEV and I am very skeptical about their ability to
deliver. One response that I received stated that they were already selling
these units faster that they could build them. This same response also
stated that they had already sold some unit but they would not say how many.
I asked them for more specific information and they just side stepped my
questions. I am very concerned with how the conversions are being
completed. I even asked them about financing and they stated that they
could get them financed with 50% down. I am very concerned with a brand new
vehicle that is not worth even 50% of what you have to pay for it. When I
asked about warranty repairs I was told that any Hyundai dealer would handle
anything from the transmission back but they would not touch the electrical
parts. I know that a lot of us are looking for something like this but I
would also suggest a wait and see attitude at least until they get a
demonstrator model that we can look at. I found out today that they are
supposed to have demonstrators available in November and that they are going
to be located somewhere in the Ft. Mill, SC area. I think that I know where
they will be. I only live a few miles from Ft. Mill and I will go see these
new EV's as soon as I know they are available.

Thanks, Freddie

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899
http://www.southernev.com/dakotaev.htm






-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of MIKE WILLMON
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions

The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the lot of
1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger will
be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 and
$32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition. They
list the options package, although the specific details on the
Lithium-polymer pack is lacking. So that is why I sent the website a query
and recieved their response the next day. It appears from looking at prices
of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with $10K Li-Po
pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module). Its kinda vague if
the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power charger is
separate. Or if both versions of the charge are separate. Along with more
specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying them on the charger
as well. Just wondered if anyone else has contacted them on what they are
offering.

It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com and http://www.ev-america.com
will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for pricing
and ordering.

But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH Prismatic and Ploymer
cells that I'd like to get the information on. They indicate a 24Kwh and
43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid
conversions. Although no definite prices yet their response indicated 4x -
5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost. When NiMH were in
that range I think people were already buying them. I know everyone will be
hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait. 

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> my main concern is the lack of specifics.
> specific car, specs and specific price
> 
> if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression 
> that 
> they were not ready yet
> 
> Dan
> 


> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > > http://www.lionev.com/
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The base model for the Hyundai Accent they are converting is priced at
$12,665. They are asking about $16,000 for the conversion including
parts and labor. I am new to EV's so I am not sure if this is about the
right price for a conversion of this type. If they can make money
selling these cars, I believe other companies will be more likely to get
into the market as well. With more companies selling EV cars, the price
will come down and the quality will go up.

Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Freddie Hartsell
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:39 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions

I have also contacted LionEV and I am very skeptical about their ability
to
deliver. One response that I received stated that they were already
selling
these units faster that they could build them. This same response also
stated that they had already sold some unit but they would not say how
many.
I asked them for more specific information and they just side stepped my
questions. I am very concerned with how the conversions are being
completed. I even asked them about financing and they stated that they
could get them financed with 50% down. I am very concerned with a brand
new
vehicle that is not worth even 50% of what you have to pay for it. When
I
asked about warranty repairs I was told that any Hyundai dealer would
handle
anything from the transmission back but they would not touch the
electrical
parts. I know that a lot of us are looking for something like this but
I
would also suggest a wait and see attitude at least until they get a
demonstrator model that we can look at. I found out today that they are
supposed to have demonstrators available in November and that they are
going
to be located somewhere in the Ft. Mill, SC area. I think that I know
where
they will be. I only live a few miles from Ft. Mill and I will go see
these
new EV's as soon as I know they are available.

Thanks, Freddie

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899
http://www.southernev.com/dakotaev.htm






-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of MIKE WILLMON
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions

The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the
lot of
1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger
will
be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 and
$32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition.
They
list the options package, although the specific details on the
Lithium-polymer pack is lacking. So that is why I sent the website a
query
and recieved their response the next day. It appears from looking at
prices
of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with $10K
Li-Po
pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module). Its kinda vague
if
the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power charger is
separate. Or if both versions of the charge are separate. Along with
more
specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying them on the
charger
as well. Just wondered if anyone else has contacted them on what they
are
offering.

It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com and
http://www.ev-america.com
will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for
pricing
and ordering.

But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH Prismatic and Ploymer
cells that I'd like to get the information on. They indicate a 24Kwh
and
43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid
conversions. Although no definite prices yet their response indicated
4x -
5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost. When NiMH were
in
that range I think people were already buying them. I know everyone
will be
hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait. 

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> my main concern is the lack of specifics.
> specific car, specs and specific price
> 
> if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression 
> that 
> they were not ready yet
> 
> Dan
> 


> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > > http://www.lionev.com/
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was just about to comment the same thing. From what I read these cars 
will
have a DC motor with (specs from site) 72+ kW , 110 HP Fuel economy equal to
114+MPG.

I was curious what DC motor they would be using. But if the base pack costs
$10k then that seems to be inline with doing the conversion and still make 
some
money off the deal.

I'd think about buying one, but it would be cheaper to convert my hybrid to 
a
plug-in.


>The base model for the Hyundai Accent they are converting is priced at
>$12,665. They are asking about $16,000 for the conversion including
>parts and labor. I am new to EV's so I am not sure if this is about the
>right price for a conversion of this type. If they can make money
>selling these cars, I believe other companies will be more likely to get
>into the market as well. With more companies selling EV cars, the price
>will come down and the quality will go up.
>
>Jerry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>Behalf Of Freddie Hartsell
>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:39 PM
>To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>
>I have also contacted LionEV and I am very skeptical about their ability
>to
>deliver. One response that I received stated that they were already
>selling
>these units faster that they could build them. This same response also
>stated that they had already sold some unit but they would not say how
>many.
>I asked them for more specific information and they just side stepped my
>questions. I am very concerned with how the conversions are being
>completed. I even asked them about financing and they stated that they
>could get them financed with 50% down. I am very concerned with a brand
>new
>vehicle that is not worth even 50% of what you have to pay for it. When
>I
>asked about warranty repairs I was told that any Hyundai dealer would
>handle
>anything from the transmission back but they would not touch the
>electrical
>parts. I know that a lot of us are looking for something like this but
>I
>would also suggest a wait and see attitude at least until they get a
>demonstrator model that we can look at. I found out today that they are
>supposed to have demonstrators available in November and that they are
>going
>to be located somewhere in the Ft. Mill, SC area. I think that I know
>where
>they will be. I only live a few miles from Ft. Mill and I will go see
>these
>new EV's as soon as I know they are available.
>
>Thanks, Freddie
>
>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899
>http://www.southernev.com/dakotaev.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>Behalf
>Of MIKE WILLMON
>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:12 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>
>The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the
>lot of
>1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger
>will
>be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 and
>$32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition.
>They
>list the options package, although the specific details on the
>Lithium-polymer pack is lacking. So that is why I sent the website a
>query
>and recieved their response the next day. It appears from looking at
>prices
>of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with $10K
>Li-Po
>pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module). Its kinda vague
>if
>the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power charger is
>separate. Or if both versions of the charge are separate. Along with
>more
>specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying them on the
>charger
>as well. Just wondered if anyone else has contacted them on what they
>are
>offering.
>
> It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com and
>http://www.ev-america.com
>will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for
>pricing
>and ordering.
>
>But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH Prismatic and Ploymer
>cells that I'd like to get the information on. They indicate a 24Kwh
>and
>43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid
>conversions. Although no definite prices yet their response indicated
>4x -
>5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost. When NiMH were
>in
>that range I think people were already buying them. I know everyone
>will be
>hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait. 
>
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
>Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>
> > my main concern is the lack of specifics.
> > specific car, specs and specific price
> >
> > if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression
> > that
> > they were not ready yet
> >
> > Dan
> >


> > > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > > > http://www.lionev.com/
> > > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If they are getting these directly from Korea without motors and exhaust
systems then their cost is less than that.

-----Original Message-----
The base model for the Hyundai Accent they are converting is priced at
$12,665. They are asking about $16,000 for the conversion including parts
and labor. I am new to EV's so I am not sure if this is about the right
price for a conversion of this type. If they can make money selling these
cars, I believe other companies will be more likely to get into the market
as well. With more companies selling EV cars, the price will come down and
the quality will go up.


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I contacted ev-america and received a prompt reply from Bob Batson stating 
that the price he had for now is $4,000.00 per 24V module and that they 
expect the price to go down substantially in 2008. He also stated that they 
do not have enough data to support this product properly and requested that 
I contact Lion EV directly. At $4K per module a 120V 200 AH pack comes in 
at $20K, this doesn't compute with the less than $30K pricing on the new 
conversions they are doing.

I have also sent a request to ampmobiles to see if they have any more 
information on the 24V modules.

respectfully,
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions


> The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the lot 
> of 1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger 
> will be available in 2008. They list a "specific" price $28,695.00 
> and $32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition. 
> They list the options package, although the specific details on the 
> Lithium-polymer pack is lacking. So that is why I sent the website a 
> query and recieved their response the next day. It appears from looking 
> at prices of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with 
> $10K Li-Po pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module). Its 
> kinda vague if the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power 
> charger is separate. Or if both versions of the charge are separate. 
> Along with more specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying 
> them on the charger as well. Just wondered if anyone else has contacted 
> them on what they are offering.
>
> It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com and http://www.ev-america.com 
> will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for 
> pricing and ordering.
>
> But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH Prismatic and Ploymer 
> cells that I'd like to get the information on. They indicate a 24Kwh and 
> 43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid 
> conversions. Although no definite prices yet their response indicated 
> 4x - 5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost. When NiMH 
> were in that range I think people were already buying them. I know 
> everyone will be hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait. 
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
> Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>
>> my main concern is the lack of specifics.
>> specific car, specs and specific price
>>
>> if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression
>> that
>> they were not ready yet
>>
>> Dan
>>


> >> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> >> > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> >> > http://www.lionev.com/
> >> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The word I heard was that they get a break from the government on new 
vehicles, but I am not privy to those details.

john



> Joseph T. wrote:
> > Maybe they are having they're pricing their vehicles lower than their
> > actual cost until 2008 rolls along (when the batteries are supposed to
> > be cheaper) to snatch up some customers?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Remember also they are not going to sell to individuals anything but
-retail- pricing, which is going to be something like 50% - full
Keystone over wholesale.

The reason is so that they don't dilute their auto sales, and folks
can't bust up their exclusive deal with LiON EV.

I don't like it, but I understand why they are doing it.

--T

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------

