# [EVDL] shuttle van update



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Mike,

I am using a electronic Stewart Warner speedometer that can use many types 
of speed sensors. One type is four magnets that are clamp around the drive 
line and another type that could be driven off the output shaft in the 
TH-400 tail shaft housing on your TransWarp.

I am going to have to talk to Net Gain about installing a speed sensor port 
in the tail shaft housing where you can just plug in a standard speed 
sensor.

After the speed sensor is install, you do a zero out reset and then drive 
one measure mile between mile markers or by following another vehicle and 
then press select.

It does not matter what your differential gear set is.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 3:15 PM
Subject: [EVDL] shuttle van update


> The transmission has been removed.
> The transwarp11 will be mounted to the differential (using the existing
> drive shaft).
>
> What choices do I have to get the vehicle speed, besides a GPS?
>
> I was looking at the evsource speed sensor, and the EVision, I think Jegs
> has some stuff as well.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also what do about getting an odometer as well?



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Mike,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The odometer is built right into the speedometer. Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update


> Also what do about getting an odometer as well?
>
>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mike,
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A digital speedo will have an odometer on it, also. The Mustang has a speedo 
made by VDO, you can buy them at NAPA Auto Parts stores. It works off a Hall 
effect sensor that runs off the trasmission gear, just like a regular stock 
speedo.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update


> Also what do about getting an odometer as well?
>
>


> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Mike,
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.

Is there any easy way to add a "governor" to do this?

The easist method, I developed was to take one of those 350a Hienmenn
breakers and split it in half., It seemed to blow very low...but I haven't
measured it.

Thanks
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> 
> > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I should mentioned I'm looking to use a curtis or a logi controller.



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:31 PM, m gol wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Use a simple solid state constant current circuit with suitably rated
components and it will limit max current. That was the preferred way to
operate an LED from a battery before PWM became popular. maintained
brightness until the battery was very dead.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM* (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Disclaimer: Try this harebrained scheme at your own peril.....

The Curtis and logisystems throttle input is referenced to negative
pack in. Put a 3mOhm 150W resistor in series with the negative pack
connection, at 225A the resistor will develop a 0.7V drop, use this to
turn on a NPN transistor that pulls down the throttle input thereby
limiting current.

If 150W loss at full current is too much for you to stomach, then use
a smaller resistor with a op-amp amplifier, of course you'll have to
supply isolated power to the op-amp, filtering, etc.


Or buy a Zilla or Soliton ....





> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> > Is there any easy way to add a "governor" to do this?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
>> Is there any easy way to add a "governor" to do this?

Don't forget, the most important thing to adjust is the nut behind the
wheel! :^)

DAC



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > m gol wrote:
> >> I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> >> I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The trimpot on the 1231, 1221 limits motor current though.



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > m gol wrote:
> >> I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> >> I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about using a 500amp/50mv shunt and then at 21mv have it turn on a
switch that would put a 2.5Kohm resistor in parallel with the potbox?

Need help with the switch part.

Thanks

Michael Golub

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Disclaimer: Try this harebrained scheme at your own peril.....
>
> The Curtis and logisystems throttle input is referenced to negative
> pack in. Put a 3mOhm 150W resistor in series with the negative pack
> connection, at 225A the resistor will develop a 0.7V drop, use this to
> turn on a NPN transistor that pulls down the throttle input thereby
> limiting current.
>
> If 150W loss at full current is too much for you to stomach, then use
> a smaller resistor with a op-amp amplifier, of course you'll have to
> supply isolated power to the op-amp, filtering, etc.
>
>
> Or buy a Zilla or Soliton ....
>
>
>
>


> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Better just to put the resistor in parallel with the Pot permanently.

Without the proper feedback control once the throttle is cut back the shunt reading will go below 21mV applying full throttle again,
shunt voltage will go above 21mV, resistor applied cutting back throttle reducing shunt voltage below 21mV again, and so on until
something breaks, or you kill your batteries, or you get tired of the oscillations ;-)

Just put another trim-pot in parallel with the Pot box and you can adjust your throttle level to not give more than the current you
want to draw.

Which controller are you using? 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of m gol
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:50 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> 
> How about using a 500amp/50mv shunt and then at 21mv have it turn on a
> switch that would put a 2.5Kohm resistor in parallel with the potbox?
> 
> Need help with the switch part.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Michael Golub
> 
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Peter Gabrielsson <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Disclaimer: Try this harebrained scheme at your own peril.....
> >
> > The Curtis and logisystems throttle input is referenced to negative
> > pack in. Put a 3mOhm 150W resistor in series with the negative pack
> > connection, at 225A the resistor will develop a 0.7V drop, use this to
> > turn on a NPN transistor that pulls down the throttle input thereby
> > limiting current.
> >
> > If 150W loss at full current is too much for you to stomach, then use
> > a smaller resistor with a op-amp amplifier, of course you'll have to
> > supply isolated power to the op-amp, filtering, etc.
> >
> >
> > Or buy a Zilla or Soliton ....
> >
> >
> >
> >


> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> > > > I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> > > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This may bot be so easy to do. High amperage often occurs at light throttle. Becasue we are taking about current limit in the motor
loop, not the battery loop.

As you start to pull away from the light the PWM duty ramps up. This gives the torque to turn the wheels, but the voltage is very
low at the slow motor RPM and so the "watts in = watts out" truism means the current is high.

While a person could keep one eye on a amp gauge, I'd rather they keep both eyes on the road.

I haven't got my data collected from my zilla hany, but I do remember being a bit surprised about the short durition high amperage
peak in a normal acceleration


|
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| * ** *
|*______________________________________

>> > m gol wrote:
>>> >> Is there any easy way to add a "governor" to do this?
> Don't forget, the most important thing to adjust is the nut behind the
> wheel! :^)
> 
> DAC
> 
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > m gol wrote:
> >>> >> I'll be using about 45 TS90 in series for the shuttle van project.
> >>> >> I'd like to keep the amps down to about 2.5C so around 225amps.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike

The other issue is too keep the voltage high, so the amps stay low...by
putting the 2.5k ohm in there permanently would defeat that purpose, and
draw more amps.
I'm using a rebuilt curtis by logi. It's a 1209 case that can do 144v 750a



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Better just to put the resistor in parallel with the Pot permanently.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah, limits your takeoff performance to that of a snail as well.




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 6/21/2010 7:03 PM, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> >> The trimpot on the 1231, 1221 limits motor current though.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > Just put another trim-pot in parallel with the Pot box and
> > you can adjust your throttle level to not give more than the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is essentially what I proposed except you have to have a linear
"switch" that turns on gradually or you end up with oscillations.

Something like this (view with fixed width font)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With fat power shunt

Curtis
-----------------| R1
9.6V-www-- pot+ |------+-------WWWWW--------+
2.7k |	| |
internal | | | c
circuitry | | +-WWWW------|< NPN
| V | 1k b | e
+-www- pot- |----WWWWW | <
| 1k | potbox | < R2
| | | <
+----- bat- |-------------+--WWWWWWWW---+---------------------------Bat-
-----------------| 3mOhm, 150W


R2 = ~100 Ohm
R1 = ~1k



with 50mV shunt and opamp

curtis
-----------------| R1
9.6V-www-- pot+ |------+-------WWWWW-----------------------|
|	| |
| | |
| | +---------WW--|\opamp |
| V | | >-+---WWW---|< NPN
+-www- pot- |----WWWWW | +-WW+-|/ | |
| 1k | potbox | | | | < R2
| | | | +-WW--+ <
+----- bat- |------------+--WWWW-+---------------------+-------------Bat-
-----------------| 50mV 225A shunt

Set gain on amp to 14
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


R1 & R2 are there to soften up the turn on of the NPN transistor so we
don't get oscilations, you may have to experiment with those values.


The danger of the opamp version is that you're far more susceptible to
noise and you have to get the filtering right. You also need to
provide power to the opamp with an isolated DCDC.






> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> > How about using a 500amp/50mv shunt and then at 21mv have it turn on a
> > switch that would put a 2.5Kohm resistor in parallel with the potbox?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wr=
ote:


> > Mike Willmon wrote:
> >
> >> Just put another trim-pot in parallel with the Pot box and
> >> you can adjust your throttle level to not give more than the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>> The trimpot on the 1231, 1221 limits motor current.
>> Yes, but that automatically limits battery current, too. Battery current
>> is always less than motor current.



> Gabrielsson wrote:
> > Yeah, limits your takeoff performance to that of a snail as well.
> 
> True, true. He'd have to shift into lower gears to get motor RPM up
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> 
> > Actually this will work reasonably well. The motor voltage is
> > proportional to throttle as you say, and max motor current is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Doh, you're right


On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wro=
te:


> > Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> >
> >> Actually this will work reasonably well. The motor voltage is
> >> proportional to throttle as you say, and max motor current is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>>> Just put another trim-pot in parallel with the Pot box and
>>> you can adjust your throttle level to not give more than the
>>> current you want to draw.

>> This won't work very well because the throttle on a typical Curtis doesn't command current, but rather voltage. The motor is not a constant resistance, so the current will vary with load and RPM as well as the throttle position.



> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > Actually this will work reasonably well. The motor voltage is
> > proportional to throttle as you say, and max motor current is limited
> > to 500A by the controller. So if you have a 144V pack and you limit
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Like this


Hall effect version, for use with 300A unipolar 5V LEM sensor


curtis
-----------------| R1 _5V_
9.6V-www-- pot+ |------+--WWWWW----+ |
|	| | +--WWW-+ +----LEM output
| | | | 300R |
| | | | >
| V >| V opto >1k
+-www- pot- |--+--WWWWW | + >
| 1k | +---------------+ | |
| | >|---------+
+----- bat- |- |NPN >200R
-----------------| | >
+-----------+--------gnd




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> The trimpot on the 1231, 1221 limits motor current.
> >>> Yes, but that automatically limits battery current, too. Battery current
> >>> is always less than motor current.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I suspect that for a shuttle bus application acceleration from a stop will be far more important to
> > subjective performance than will top speed, and it could very well turn out that the 48V approach
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 6/23/2010 4:02 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
> >> If it's a shuttle bus he should really be using an AC drive with
> >> regen, probably at 72V.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In my series wound DC powered setup I can do zero to over 130mph with fixed gearing, and hold on a hill at stall current and the
controller will protect the motor from destruction. I can't do all that with the Curtis AC system. Even an AC-50 may not have the
torque required to get a big van moving.

And too, Mike said this thing may not even see 30 mph on a less than a couple mile (?) route. And too, he's trying to this
inexpensively. I don't think the AC drive that would move a van this size would be very inexpensive.

Mike W.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> 
>


> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect that for a shuttle bus application acceleration from a stop will be far more important to
> > > subjective performance than will top speed, and it could very well turn out that the 48V approach
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> The induction machine may be running at full slip (zero efficiency)
> but the resulting rotor current is just the same, (or less) than when
> climbing the hill normally, is it not? And the current is still
> rotating around the windings in both the rotor and stator.
>
> Whereas in the DC motor, the current which is normally flowing with a
> small duty cycle is presented continuously to a single armature
> winding.
>

You will quickly bring the induction motor rotor up the melting point of the
aluminum rotor bars. Stall an ac motor and connect it across the line, if
you do not trip a breaker, you will still damage the motor. The current in
the rotor depends on the amount of slip. You have to have some slip in an
induction motor in order to have current producing a field that interacts
with the stator field to produce torque

Stephen Chapman
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Holding on a hill with a DC motor will very likely resulting in lifting a
commutator bar.



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > In my series wound DC powered setup I can do zero to over 130mph with fixed
> > gearing, and hold on a hill at stall current and the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not if the controller detects stall and shuts down ;-)

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stephen Chapman
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:02 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> 
> Holding on a hill with a DC motor will very likely resulting in lifting a
> commutator bar.
> 
>


> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> > > In my series wound DC powered setup I can do zero to over 130mph with fixed
> > > gearing, and hold on a hill at stall current and the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In that case, you are not holding on a hill...



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Not if the controller detects stall and shuts down ;-)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > In my series wound DC powered setup I can do zero to over
> > 130mph with fixed gearing, and hold on a hill at stall
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Stephen Chapman wrote
> In that case, you are not holding on a hill...

And it shouldn't. And if you try, the Zilla will protect your motor.
I'm glad my controller is looking out for me.

I have no expectation that my electric motor will hold me on a hill
instead of the brakes. Even with an ICE you shouldn't do it. If you
have a standard shift, you'll burn out the clutch. With an automatic,
you have to hold the idle high enough to resist rolling backwards. The
steeper the hill, the higher the revs to hold position. Do this long
enough and you'll build up heat and shorten the life of your drive
train. Not very destructive but not efficient either.

DAC




> Stephen Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In that case, you are not holding on a hill...
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes that was my point in comment to the uneducated EV driver that thinks they "can" hold a hill and would likely burn up a motor or
controller or both in expecting it to happen. My point again is that if you use the equipment with the safety features built in,
even a dummy can drive an electric ;-) And as well, being able to set motor AND battery current and voltage limits will save you a
lot of time and potentially burnt up stuff. I understand the concept of doing things inexpensively. And through trial and error I
have found that the cost in doing things on the cheap is, in many cases, the more expensive way to go. Doing R&D on your own does
cost you, and you don't get to share the costs with anyone else but yourself.

Has anyone done the "Dummy's Guide to Driving EV's" yet ? It might sell ;-)

Mike.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of dave cover
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:15 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> 
> Stephen Chapman wrote
> > In that case, you are not holding on a hill...
> 
> And it shouldn't. And if you try, the Zilla will protect your motor.
> I'm glad my controller is looking out for me.
> 
> I have no expectation that my electric motor will hold me on a hill
> instead of the brakes. Even with an ICE you shouldn't do it. If you
> have a standard shift, you'll burn out the clutch. With an automatic,
> you have to hold the idle high enough to resist rolling backwards. The
> steeper the hill, the higher the revs to hold position. Do this long
> enough and you'll build up heat and shorten the life of your drive
> train. Not very destructive but not efficient either.
> 
> DAC
> 
> 
>


> Stephen Chapman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > In that case, you are not holding on a hill...
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > In all fairness, an AC-50 with matching controller costs less than
> > your [Zilla] controller alone. For the cost of your controller (if he can
> > buy one these days), he can probably buy the AC drivetrain and a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have no expectation that my electric motor will hold me on a hill
> > instead of the brakes.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > > I have no expectation that my electric motor will hold me on a hill
> > > instead of the brakes.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > We aren't talking about a stalled motor with full line voltage and frequency across it. We are
> > talking about a motor with just enough throttle applied to stop it
> > rolling backwards.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > you still can't hold on a hill! It will cut out
> > and roll backwards. Highly alarming in a passenger bus if the driver
> > is not expecting it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > And again, the amount of torque needed to hold still on the
> > hill is about the same as the amount of torque needed to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

Boy! This Shuttle van is a hot topic? Seems a bit of driver training is 
in order, As Evan mentioned?There are just things you DON'T do in the Real 
World? hold yur EV on a hill with power, a locked roter/armature, slide yur 
razer SIDEWAYS across yur face, piss on 3rd rails, NOT look to the RIGHT 
when attempting to cross a street in the UK, etc? I mean an ev is alot like 
a car with an auto tranny? You stop, hold yur foot on the BRAKE til yur good 
to go on?Same as electric trains on hills! TIMING is everything. Gone, good 
thing for MOST sheeple, that we used to be able to co-ordinate brake, gas 
and clutch to drive away on hills, dignity intact?US Old Farts just learned 
that, by osmosis, or worse the Braille System, ages ago?

At worse a sticker on the dashboard saying DO NOT HOLD Van on hills with 
E power. USE BRAKES!!

IMHO;

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evan Tuer" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update


> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Roger Stockton <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps they do thing different on your side of the pond; I've never seen
> >> an automatic tranny over
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > Boy! This Shuttle van is a hot topic?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 24 Jun 2010 at 11:55, Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > Seems a bit of driver training is in order, As Evan mentioned?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update




> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> >> Boy! This Shuttle van is a hot topic?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is relevant because someone mentioned that with the proper gearing and t=
ransmission the smaller motor could get it going but that
he may not be able to make his top speed required. In my example I can do =
both... with 1 gear.

My point about holding the hill is that if an uneducated driver took my set=
up and tried it, he would not blow up the motor or the
controller.

MIke

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:49 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> =

> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
> > In my series wound DC powered setup I can do zero to over 130mph with f=
ixed gearing, and hold on a
> > hill at stall current and the controller will protect the motor from de=
struction. I can't do all that with the
> > Curtis AC system.
> =

> That's not relevant to this bus application though, is it. And as
> others pointed out, you still can't hold on a hill! It will cut out
> and roll backwards. Highly alarming in a passenger bus if the driver
> is not expecting it.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > It is relevant because someone mentioned that with the proper gearing and
> > transmission the smaller motor could get it going but that
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The argument here is not actually holding a hill using your battery pack po=
wer. That is disadvantageous to do so, in more ways than
one. The argument was if in so trying you blow something up. My piece of =
this argument is to by equipment that detects stall and
cuts back or off, reminding you to use your brake. Then you wouldn't have =
to come up with a unique method to limit current, limit
motor temp, force air cool a motor etc etc. All the little extra features =
you have to design to get a cheap controller to be
effective will likely cost more (especially if you damage something) than t=
he controller with the desired features already built in.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:52 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> =

>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > =
> 
> > >> the amount of torque needed to hold still on the hill is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For the exact reasons Dave Roden and Bob Rice mentioned earlier in the thread.
Training is no savior from destruction if the possibility exists for it to happen.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----


> > Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Why would you let an uneducated driver drive a shuttle bus full of people?
> > They'd require a CDL to legally do that (in Colorado at least), and probably
> > training on the particular vehicle -- the mountain school buses here have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >> Why would you let an uneducated driver drive a shuttle bus full of people?
> >> They'd require a CDL to legally do that (in Colorado at least), and probably
> >> training on the particular vehicle -- the mountain school buses here have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

...and like Bob mentioned, they'll still get their paycheck :-(
If you built their van then they'd probably be looking for a full refund from you, another :-(

So if you build it for personal reasons, then OK, maybe make some compromises, but for a commercial or public application.....
please please please don't skimp on the features that are pretty common to design into commercial controllers.

If you want to "limit" battery current, then get a controller that will do that for you. If you want to protect your motor and/or
controller from stall destruction, then get a controller that will perform that function for you too. Those are not easy functions
to design your self to make up for the inexpensive controller. 

If someone says they hold their car on a 22% grade for 30 seconds it should not be taken as proof that it is safe for the equipment.
If there was a CDL training course for EV's I would venture to guess that "holding a hill" would NOT be recommended, even if the
system was designed to protect itself.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> Lee Hart wrote 
> 
> Even a well trained driver will either make mistakes, or do it wrong on
> purpose to see what happens, or even to deliberately break it.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Even a well trained driver will either make mistakes, or do it wrong on
> > purpose to see what happens, or even to deliberately break it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If it were a "Zilla powered" vehicle it would be very unEVentful as you coast to a stop, and when the motor reads zero RPM you'd go
full throttle in reverse. Of course if you have your Reverse setting to some low voltage and current and RPM levels, then that
would be rather unEVentful too ;-P

Of course I have to try all the safety features 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:53 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] shuttle van update
> 
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Even a well trained driver will either make mistakes, or do it wrong on
> > > purpose to see what happens, or even to deliberately break it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry for lack of response. Thanks so much for all the information.
I've been busy for sure.
I finally figured out how to upgrade the dana70u to 7.17...It turns out it
came with a power lock, but the original case only goes to 4.10. I found a
case that takes the original power lock, so it should cost about $800 for
the upgraded parts...

1- The reason I wanted to keep the amps low, was to protect the Thundersky
batteries. Using TS90, I'm looking to stay at 225 amps (2.5C). One thought
was to keep the voltage high using about 44 batteries in series to get 144
volts and ensure that the pot only goes to 2.5k ohm. That way the maximum
average voltage is 72 volts. According to the transwarp11 curve at at about
2000rpm (which is about 22mph), it would pull 250amps and about 58 ft/lbs.
Which is 24hp, but if I only need about 10hp for steady speed, then I
shouldn't pull that many amps....If I do series-parallel combination then a
can use a 72 volt controller and leave the pot intact (5k ohm), but would
there be any benefit besides using less BMS boards?

2- Wasn't worried about holding any hills. That's what the brake is for.
What is the issue with going down the hill? Is there some way to blow the
motor at 20mph?

thanks all





> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 5:18 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> 
> > If I do
> > series-parallel combination then a can use a 72 volt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If I do series-parallel combination then a
> > can use a 72 volt controller and leave the pot intact (5k ohm), but would
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have both 72volt controller or 144volt controller for this project.
Battery charger hasn't been selected yet.

I know that the 144 has the plug braking option.

I was thinking of having an additional circuit in order to get the vehicle
in reverse. But I was going to use a reversing contactor or 4 kilovacs



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> 
> > I was thinking of having an additional circuit in order to
> > get the vehicle in reverse. But I was going to use a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Perhaps a 3 way switch with a cover?

I was thinking about not allowing the 3 way to work, unless the brake pedal
is pressed?



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > m gol wrote:
> >
> ...


----------

