# First Production Volts Will Not Be E-85 Capable



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Announcement back-peddles on earlier promises.

More...


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2010)

I would not be surprised to see GM back pedal out of the Volt completely. This statement: "Also, the price of E85 is presently uncompetitive vs. gasoline," said Adler." is utter nonsense. Our station that supplies E-85 is exactly the same price as regular gasoline. Don't know where he is getting his info from. Granted we have only a few places in our general location but still it would be nice to know I can use it when in the area. 

Pete


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

> This statement: "Also, the price of E85 is presently uncompetitive vs. gasoline," said Adler." is utter nonsense. Our station that supplies E-85 is exactly the same price as regular gasoline.
> 
> Pete


??? Sounds like a ripoff ??? E85 around here varies from $0.50 to $1 a gallon LESS than e10 and it needs to be that much less to be economical for all drivers. Some like me get the same FE running a 50/50 mix with it but most loose FE, especially on mixes above 50%.

Reason being is most automanufacturers don't really retune their engines to run on e85, they just have the computer squirt more gas using the O2 to find stoich around 12:1 or so.

If we would actually design engines to run primarily on alcohol and also be gasoline "compatible" you would find e85 can deliver the same or better FE & performance of gas because it can run much leaner and with much more compression. Right now the "e85" engines are gas but alcohol compatible, would be nice to see a few the other way around once.

And as for GM it really is pure rubbish since the only thing needed to run any modern motor on e85 is a slight change in the programming on the computer (ECU) Heck my 98 buick can run on e85, just idles slow with a check engine light since the ECU doesn't expect that much O2.

There are however many problems with the way we produce e85 in the states, we would be a world better if alcohol were made from another stock, preferably any waste vegetable stock like potatoes or beets that are leftover and production should only occur in the south where the temperature supports the reaction without the use of chemicals and fossil fuel heating. AKA do it the old fashioned natural and slow way, malt and ferment without assist, cheaper, sustainable and lower pollution. Rather stupid to save a couple of acres of land up north running active heating to overcome 20 below weather, burning fossil fuel the whole way to make renewable fuel eh?

Cheers
Ryan


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I tried E10 when I was in australia and while it was cheaper, it resulted in a drop in MPGs that outweighed the price break. The car had a well designed EFI system that returned MPGs that followed what octane rating you used but with the E10, the thing lost power and simply burned more fuel thus driving up the cost per mile. Tried it once and never used it again. Although here in canada, I drive LPG or diesel vehicles only - and electric, if I can ever finish it.

I don't want to start a fight with anyone, but the price at the pump isn't really a reflection of the cost to make the fuel. Biofuels cost more to make and are currently heavily subsidized. Petroleum fuels also recieve subsidies to get new projects off the ground, but going forward is probably the most heavily taxed resource in the economy (besides us).

Ethanol also seems to create as many problems as it solves and there are added problems for the world supply of grain (food). Its been a while since I looked up the numbers but I remember reading the amount of food crops that have been displaced and how much farmland would be needed to grow enough for the federal biofuels mandate let alone to replace fossil fuels completely.

As far as the volt goes, I am waiting to hear the program quietly get canceled and have been for a while now.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I think the Volt was a designed failure ie its purpose was to make Chev "look" like it was making an electric car but it was never seriously intended to succeed as the cleverly engineered short comings caused the nay sayers to rise up and ultimately put more nails in the EV coffin.
If Chev says it cant be done, the main streamers will all tag along.

I am convinced petrol companies are paying big dollars to car manufacturer executives to NOT make electric vehicles or postpone the development of EV's or go one step further and make a failure that proves EV's dont work.
A trillion dollar a day industry can easily afford to pay $50g a week to each exec of each car maker.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> I think the Volt was a designed failure ie its purpose was to make Chev "look" like it was making an electric car but it was never seriously intended to succeed as the cleverly engineered short comings caused the nay sayers to rise up and ultimately put more nails in the EV coffin.
> If Chev says it cant be done, the main streamers will all tag along.


Actually I fully expect the volt to be released but not really sold, it will be marketed EXACTLY the same way as the EV1. Available to utilities and government to improve their numbers but you can never buy one just like the EV1.

If GM really wanted to make an electric car they would just sell the EV1, the fact that our government wants the car to weigh 3000lbs should be changed to reduce costs and increase fuel economy.

The engineers in the EV1 project figured the car could be sold for between $19k-$25k in volume of coarse in 2003 dollars. And they already had an EV1 series hybred made as required by the government that got in the neighborhood of 90mpg.

Interesting how we forget.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

EV1 was a much better car, and from what I understand, the 1989 impact was slightly better still. If nothing else, both earlier EVs were designed with efficiency in mind and were very streamlined for low drag. The original volt concept was more aerodynamic in reverse! Classic case of putting form before function, but it worked and the automotive media as well as the public swallowed the idea hook, line and sinker even though the concept was strictly vaporware.

For me, the writing was on the wall when GM started to make up stories about how hard it is to make an electric car because of other systems that use electricity. They are actually on record saying that the sterio would be a problem because it would limit the range if the driver used it. Another comment stated the problem of making a climate control system that didn't consume a lot of energy and could still function with the engine not running. We know that the EV1 had a high efficiency heat pump on board that worked very well. And the sterio? be serious, yes it uses some power, but home converters have been using their radios since conversions first started and don't get stranded because of it.

For that matter using the AC in a gas powered car will also limit range too.

I wonder if the impact prototype still exists somewhere. I know there are a few dozen surviving EV1s.....


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

GM should save themselves the trouble by skipping a few steps and just send the glider directly to the museums.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

E85 aka ethanol is what you get when Mexico and latins complain about food prices, the Feds sub corn production, bio agro goes bankrupt and oil companies pickup the assets. Brazil and others produce E85 cheaper than the US but we restrict the import


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

TexasCotton said:


> E85 aka ethanol is what you get when Mexico and latins complain about food prices, the Feds sub corn production, bio agro goes bankrupt and oil companies pickup the assets. Brazil and others produce E85 cheaper than the US but we restrict the import


I know, there could be other implications from using Brazilian ethanol but needless to say alcohol made from sugar, beets, even potatoes in a hot subtropical environment is FAR MORE feasible and far less expensive than trying to make it from corn in freezing weather. e100 Alcohol production from those foodstocks in a tropical environment takes well under half the energy of corn ethanol up here and if you burn 100% ethanol you don't have to get the water out when it isn't mixed with gas, only usable though in summertime or hot environments.

Completely ridiculous how we have handled ethanol. There are so many things we could do differently to make it feasible and energy efficient, sadly most would reduce cost and reduce the amount of production, ah too bad.


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## TexasCotton (Sep 18, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> I know, there could be other implications from using Brazilian ethanol but needless to say alcohol made from sugar, beets, even potatoes in a hot subtropical environment is FAR MORE feasible and far less expensive than trying to make it from corn in freezing weather. e100 Alcohol production from those foodstocks in a tropical environment takes well under half the energy of corn ethanol up here and if you burn 100% ethanol you don't have to get the water out when it isn't mixed with gas, only usable though in summertime or hot environments.
> 
> Completely ridiculous how we have handled ethanol. There are so many things we could do differently to make it feasible and energy efficient, sadly most would reduce cost and reduce the amount of production, ah too bad.


More like we got "handle" by farm/grain subsides in states and with politicians who talk alot "time for change" . The real sad fact is that the crude oil futures/oil distilits/corn futures/biomass/ speculators and complex deriveratives markets will bring this country further down too.We are becoming a third world country slowly and unfortunately with plenty of "moral hazards"


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