# Newbie Motor Questions



## fatty227 (May 31, 2021)

I'm getting ready to do a conversion, just doing early research right now. But I'm feeling a little lost and hoping for suggestions from people who have more experience than I!

What I'm looking to do is convert an old early 90s F 150. I'd love to bolt on to the existing manual transmission. (Yes I know one does not simply do that without some fabrication)

I'm having trouble with motor selection, though. Looking at the power figures for most of the common motors out there it seems like they're very inadequate for a 5,000 pound truck. Any suggestions for what could work? Would I have to use a dual motor setup?

Any insight would be very helpful.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

I'd visit EV west. They do conversions like this all the time. They probably have the adapter plates and brackets needed to mount a variety of motors to your transmission. They will have motor options that will work for you. Once you get to that point, you'll have a pretty decent idea what this will cost you. By then, you'll know if your 1990's truck is the platform you really want to sink that much money into!


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

I am using a Nissan LEAF motor with only 80kw for my 5000lb truck, but I am ok with it being sluggish and my goals are primarily for off-road driving. Keeping the manual transmission will let you have tons of ratios to make nearly any motor work. Do you want it to be super fast or just go down the road at a reasonable speed?


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## fatty227 (May 31, 2021)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> I am using a Nissan LEAF motor with only 80kw for my 5000lb truck, but I am ok with it being sluggish and my goals are primarily for off-road driving. Keeping the manual transmission will let you have tons of ratios to make nearly any motor work. Do you want it to be super fast or just go down the road at a reasonable speed?


Ok that's good to know! I don't need it to be a speed demon. My primary goal is off road stuff, though I would like it to be highway drivable so I can get to the off road spots 😁


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## fatty227 (May 31, 2021)

Hyper 9 seems like a good option, but IDK if anyone has used that with a truck this size.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

Have you looked into gigantic forklift motors? That is what I'm looking into for a huge 90's SUV that I'm too ashamed to actually name on these forums. I've seen a few 300 pounder DC forklift motors on eBay recently but the residential shipping is extremely expensive like 300 to 400 dollars.


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## fatty227 (May 31, 2021)

Indeed Curious said:


> Have you looked into gigantic forklift motors? That is what I'm looking into for a huge 90's SUV that I'm too ashamed to actually name on these forums. I've seen a few 300 pounder DC forklift motors on eBay recently but the residential shipping is extremely expensive like 300 to 400 dollars.


PLEASE PLEASE tell me it's a suburban. That would be amazing.. and who cares what people on here think. If it speaks to you that's all that matters!

Also... That's an interesting thought! I should check that out.. so another noob question here. Trying to figure out AC vs DC. What are pros and cons? Basically all I've heard is DC is cheaper for the power, but they're lacking in Regen abilities and don't do well on the highway. Is that right?


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

fatty227 said:


> PLEASE PLEASE tell me it's a suburban. That would be amazing.. and who cares what people on here think. If it speaks to you that's all that matters!
> 
> Also... That's an interesting thought! I should check that out.. so another noob question here. Trying to figure out AC vs DC. What are pros and cons? Basically all I've heard is DC is cheaper for the power, but they're lacking in Regen abilities and don't do well on the highway. Is that right?


I'm new to EV conversion scene too and yes It is a 99 suburban 😁... From what I can tell AC is more expensive but offers more options like you described. As for me I'm going DC because that's what I can afford and they seem less complex to set up. If I'm successful then I can drop $30,000 on materials after I gain more experience.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

fatty227 said:


> Ok that's good to know! I don't need it to be a speed demon. My primary goal is off road stuff, though I would like it to be highway drivable so I can get to the off road spots 😁


In that case you could follow my build. I am using a Nissan LEAF as my donor simply for the cost per technology benefit of getting a used, modern EV. Using a Resolve-EV controller you can basically turn my wrecked LEAF into any kind of EV you want, as long as the mechanical parts are also taken care of. That gets you not just a motor and battery, but a motor inverter, DC-DC converter, L2 and Chademo chargers, and even heater and AC if desired all included in the price. That was my main motivating factor to choose the LEAF path.

The LEAF is limited to only 80kw, but with the right gearing you can move just about anything with any motor. It just comes down to how fast do you want it to happen. You can also get a custom inverter that can make way more power from the same LEAF motor, Underground Electrics in B.C. has one but it's like $6000. I think there are a couple others but none with the great integration with other components like the Resolve-EV does.

Yes you are correct AC gives you more technology, DC is the old tech in golf carts. Not to say that DC won't work, but IMO it's going backwards when we have all this awesome EV stuff available.

@Indeed Curious that sounds like an awesome project! I used to have a Suburban, wish I never sold it  I'd be interested in your project if you ever decide to post here!


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## YumYum (Jul 1, 2020)

I think a good place to start would be to set out basic performance goals, then calculate numbers based on your vehicle. You can calculate power required to accelerate to v2 from v1 in a time span, power consumption to maintain a speed, etc. Once you have that you can rule out motors by their power and price, considering the proposed battery pack.

What you will find is weight plays a large factor in all metrics. There is no problem using an F-150 but a Ranger could be the better vehicle numerically. Just decide what is important to your project.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> In that case you could follow my build. I am using a Nissan LEAF as my donor simply for the cost per technology benefit of getting a used, modern EV. Using a Resolve-EV controller you can basically turn my wrecked LEAF into any kind of EV you want, as long as the mechanical parts are also taken care of. That gets you not just a motor and battery, but a motor inverter, DC-DC converter, L2 and Chademo chargers, and even heater and AC if desired all included in the price. That was my main motivating factor to choose the LEAF path.
> 
> The LEAF is limited to only 80kw, but with the right gearing you can move just about anything with any motor. It just comes down to how fast do you want it to happen. You can also get a custom inverter that can make way more power from the same LEAF motor, Underground Electrics in B.C. has one but it's like $6000. I think there are a couple others but none with the great integration with other components like the Resolve-EV does.
> 
> ...


I've heard that the Nissan Leaf(s) plays good with end users using it's parts in other vehicles. I feel like I should look into pricing for wrecked and salvaged leafs and see what I can come up with. Thanks.


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## fatty227 (May 31, 2021)

Ok yeah I second that! I hadn't thought of the leaf. Thank you!


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

The real question here is efficiency or converting electrons into torque. 

Forklift motors are abundant and they are brushed DC motors almost exclusively. Brushed motors vary some for efficiency, but they tend to be 60-70% efficient. This is mostly due to brushes. They create a lot of resistive losses in the motor. The windings are probably not going to get better as this is a well known dynamic in any motor. Anybody making a quality motor will want the windings, armature and stator to be as efficient as is reasonable within the design limits of that motor type. Large brushed motors will be no different in this regard. However, the over all design of a brushed motor is not very efficient.

BLDC or BrushLess DC motors have taken over the world for some great reasons. You see them in vacuum cleaners, lawn mowers, power tools, EV's and many other places. It is probably true that they have over taken every other motor option in the ways they have been implemented. BLDC controllers and motors see ongoing design improvements. A few years ago, trapazoidal controllers were all that most people could afford. Sinusoidal and FOC controllers existed, but they were simply too expensive to implement for most uses. Mosfets have made LARGE leaps forward in amperage, lower losses, higher voltages and lower cost. Now days, a 20kw FOC controller can be purchased for around $600. In 2018, you would have spent easily twice that! BLDC motors are mass produced. This drives their cost down considerably! Go to any junk yard and you can find defunct hybrid cars and SUV's with working BLDC motors and controllers in them for very reasonable prices. Efficiencies are usually well above 80% and many are above 90%. Tesla is beating everyone in efficiency and they use BLDC or PMAC motors to do it.

A variation on BLDC is PMAC or Permanent Magnet AC motor. The stator windings and armature are the same as is used in BLDC motors. The difference is how the armature position is encoded. Add halls to a PMAC at 120 degrees apart and any BLDC controller will run a PMAC motor. Add an encoder to a BLDC motor and most any PMAC controller will run it. So if you run across a PMAC motor for cheap, don't let this stop you. Convert it to BLDC. PMAC or rather the AC part of it is confusing. From the perspective of the motor windings, they are always seeing AC current. The current usually makes a sine wave in the windings in either BLDC or PMAC motors. So they are both AC motors. It's really how encoding armature position that creates a distinction between them.

Induction motors have a place. Tesla uses them as their front motor. When the motor is not powered, it creates a small spinning mass resistance. They can't be used for regen since they lack magnets on the armature. Speed control of an induction motor is done by varying the frequency applied to it. Lower frequency makes it spin slower. BLDC motor design can incorporate very low spinning resistance too. This isn't necessarily a good argument for using induction motors.

Lots of people wanting to do car conversions can't afford the cost of a new controller and motor. There are thousands of hybrid and full electric cars and SUVs in salvage yards. This is a great source for the parts you need. The single BIG cost in any motor controller is the high power components. Quite often wrecked cars have a proprietary control solution for running their motor. There are lots of smart people out there that have figured out how to interface to these devices or simply replace them with an open source option and reuse the high power components. Whatever your salvaged controller might be, there's probably someone out there that figured out how to interface to it for repurposing.

Just my opinion perhaps, but there are way too many companies out there that agree with this...
I'd go with BLDC. Controllers and motors are easy to find, cheap and available from thousands of sources. With FOC controllers, you can get some really good efficiencies that are much better than anything else. The up front cost is not that bad when you visit a junk yard for them! This is a very good/best option for a conversion.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

rishimaze said:


> The real question here is efficiency or converting electrons into torque. Forklift motors are abundant and they are brushed DC motors almost exclusively. Brushed motors vary some for effiiciency, but they tend to be 60-70% efficient. This is mostly due to brushes. They create a lot of resistive losses in the motor. The windings are probably not going to get better as this is a well known dynamic in any motor. Anybody making a quality motor will want the windings, armature and stator to be as efficient as is reasonable within the design limits of that motor type. Large brushed motors will be no different.
> 
> BLDC has taken over the world for some great reasons. You see them in vacuum cleaners, lawn mowers, power tools, EV's and many other places. It is probably true that they have over taken every other motor option in the ways they have been implemented. BLDC controllers and motors see ongoing design improvements. A few years ago, trapazoidal controllers were all that most people could afford. Sinusoidal and FOC controllers existed, but they were simply too expensive to implement for most uses. Mosfets have made LARGE leaps forward in amperage, lower losses, higher voltages and lower cost. Now days, a 20kw FOC controller can be purchased for around $600. 2018, you would have spent easily twice that! BLDC motors are mass produced. This drives their cost down considerably! Go to any junk yard and you can find defunct hybrid cars and SUV's with working BLDC motors and controllers in them for very reasonable prices.
> 
> ...





rishimaze said:


> The real question here is efficiency or converting electrons into torque.
> 
> Forklift motors are abundant and they are brushed DC motors almost exclusively. Brushed motors vary some for efficiency, but they tend to be 60-70% efficient. This is mostly due to brushes. They create a lot of resistive losses in the motor. The windings are probably not going to get better as this is a well known dynamic in any motor. Anybody making a quality motor will want the windings, armature and stator to be as efficient as is reasonable within the design limits of that motor type. Large brushed motors will be no different in this regard. However, the over all design of a brushed motor is not very efficient.
> 
> ...



I am definitely seeking to avoid the steep costs of converting to an EV. You are providing valuable info I appreciate it.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

Indeed Curious said:


> I've heard that the Nissan Leaf(s) plays good with end users using it's parts in other vehicles. I feel like I should look into pricing for wrecked and salvaged leafs and see what I can come up with. Thanks.


Look at the weight of a Nissan Leaf. They are quite light. Look at the performance you typically get in a Leaf. 0-60 in around 7 seconds. This tells you that the motor in something heavier is going to really struggle. A transmission can help with this and adds its own mechanical losses to the system. Maybe it's just my opinion, but I would only use a Leaf motor and controller in something that weighs LESS than a Leaf. For heavier conversions, like an SUV, you really want a more powerful set up. I'd consider finding a wrecked Tesla and grabbing its motor and controller. After that you can tune it to your power and performance needs and it will be great.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

rishimaze said:


> Look at the weight of a Nissan Leaf. They are quite light. Look at the performance you typically get in a Leaf. 0-60 in around 7 seconds. This tells you that the motor in something heavier is going to really struggle. A transmission can help with this and adds its own mechanical losses to the system. Maybe it's just my opinion, but I would only use a Leaf motor and controller in something that weighs LESS than a Leaf. For heavier conversions, like an SUV, you really want a more powerful set up. I'd consider finding a wrecked Tesla and grabbing its motor and controller. After that you can tune it to your power and performance needs and it will be great.


Yeah but Teslas seem so difficult to get working... considering that you have to fool the motor into believing that it's in side of an intact Tesla before it will work. And then you have to get all those battery modules. $$$ those Leaf motor inverter setups are pretty cheap so I'm wondering if you could stack the motors to get twice the performance... I've seen that done with the Chevy bolt motors do you know if this is possible with the leaf?


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

YumYum said:


> I think a good place to start would be to set out basic performance goals, then calculate numbers based on your vehicle. You can calculate power required to accelerate to v2 from v1 in a time span, power consumption to maintain a speed, etc. Once you have that you can rule out motors by their power and price, considering the proposed battery pack.
> 
> What you will find is weight plays a large factor in all metrics. There is no problem using an F-150 but a Ranger could be the better vehicle numerically. Just decide what is important to your project.


If this is your first conversion, it is probably best to start with a fairly small and light vehicle to convert. Rear wheel drive can make converting to electric easier than front wheel drive due to the simple drive train. Maybe find a little Nissan or Toyota pickup to convert? The lower weight and size will help you a LOT at keeping your wattage and pack capacity costs down. You'll learn so much from this build! You'll see your mistakes and missteps and how you would do another build differently or better next time. It can be done, but there is a large learning curve to going straight to a high power build.


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## YumYum (Jul 1, 2020)

The Leaf motor only has a single output shaft so there is no way to mate them like a Warp motor. Maybe you could stack them in some bespoke setup but that is pretty infeasible. On top of that two inverters would be needed to drive them. It's possible to get more power out of the EM motor than stock but you are stressing parts beyond what they are designed for. For more power look in to open inverter and related work. At that point you can't use off the shelf vcus or hacked canbus to control it. If you want to run a stock Leaf motor, you will need to buy a Leaf motor, Leaf inverter and either an aftermarket vcu/or homemade controller. You can also transplant the complete leaf electrical system in.

A Tesla motor does not require Tesla batteries in order to run, nor does it need an entire Model S transplanted in order to run. The motor and aftermarket controllers are probably cost prohibitive for a basic build. They do exist though.

If you are still planning, get design specs for possible motors and look at what other people use in similar vehicles.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

rishimaze said:


> If this is your first conversion, it is probably best to start with a fairly small and light vehicle to convert. Rear wheel drive can make converting to electric easier than front wheel drive due to the simple drive train. Maybe find a little Nissan or Toyota pickup to convert? The lower weight and size will help you a LOT at keeping your wattage and pack capacity costs down. You'll learn so much from this build! You'll see your mistakes and missteps and how you would do another build differently or better next time. It can be done, but there is a large learning curve to going straight to a high power build.


No doubt. At this point I'm learning as much as possible. The whole use a small vehicle thing was the first thing I realized...on the other hand I have a 99 suburban with a blown motor and some hobbies grade R.C trucks and few that I have converted from gas to electric 😁. I know the scales are vastly different as well as the complexities but I'm in know rush. I just don't want to drop 10k or more and have nothing to show for it.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

YumYum said:


> The Leaf motor only has a single output shaft so there is no way to mate them like a Warp motor. Maybe you could stack them in some bespoke setup but that is pretty infeasible. On top of that two inverters would be needed to drive them. It's possible to get more power out of the EM motor than stock but you are stressing parts beyond what they are designed for. For more power look in to open inverter and related work. At that point you can't use off the shelf vcus or hacked canbus to control it. If you want to run a stock Leaf motor, you will need to buy a Leaf motor, Leaf inverter and either an aftermarket vcu/or homemade controller. You can also transplant the complete leaf electrical system in.
> 
> A Tesla motor does not require Tesla batteries in order to run, nor does it need an entire Model S transplanted in order to run. The motor and aftermarket controllers are probably cost prohibitive for a basic build. They do exist though.
> 
> If you are still planning, get design specs for possible motors and look at what other people use in similar vehicles.


Thank you


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

YumYum said:


> The Leaf motor only has a single output shaft so there is no way to mate them like a Warp motor. Maybe you could stack them in some bespoke setup but that is pretty infeasible. On top of that two inverters would be needed to drive them. It's possible to get more power out of the EM motor than stock but you are stressing parts beyond what they are designed for. For more power look in to open inverter and related work. At that point you can't use off the shelf vcus or hacked canbus to control it. If you want to run a stock Leaf motor, you will need to buy a Leaf motor, Leaf inverter and either an aftermarket vcu/or homemade controller. You can also transplant the complete leaf electrical system in.
> 
> A Tesla motor does not require Tesla batteries in order to run, nor does it need an entire Model S transplanted in order to run. The motor and aftermarket controllers are probably cost prohibitive for a basic build. They do exist though.
> 
> If you are still planning, get design specs for possible motors and look at what other people use in similar vehicles.



I don't know if you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think is happening. this is 3 Chevy bolt motor inverters. I'm not sure if bolt motors have dual shafts .


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

@rishimaze good break down. I'll admit I used the terminology incorrectly in this thread. In my mind both BLDC and PMAC are "AC" motors so that's what I call them vs a Brushed DC motor. Though, all run off of DC input voltage compared to industrial motors that run off AC input which adds another layer of confusion.

I am using a LEAF motor in a heavier than LEAF vehicle, but I don't plan to take it on the highway or really do anything other than drive around town and offroad at slow speeds (less than 40mph). Counting on lots and lots of gear reduction to motivate it offroad.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

Indeed Curious said:


> Yeah but Teslas seem so difficult to get working... considering that you have to fool the motor into believing that it's in side of an intact Tesla before it will work. And then you have to get all those battery modules. $$$ those Leaf motor inverter setups are pretty cheap so I'm wondering if you could stack the motors to get twice the performance... I've seen that done with the Chevy bolt motors do you know if this is possible with the leaf?


Who cares...all you want is the motor and controller and the rear axel to reuse. There's quite a few people that have figured out how to interface to the Tesla controllers or simply replace the brains with their own. This is a well understood thing. You don't need all the complexity of the entire Tesla to get the motor and controller to run. I'd explore this a bit more...it's not that difficult. The Tesla control electronics can be replaced with something much more friendly.





openinverter.org wiki







openinverter.org





I do/did dual motors driving at the same time. Any 2 identical motors can drive the same shaft. This can be implemented in several ways. I've tried all of these. 1 stator with 6 phases, 2 separate stators on either side of a single set of magnets , 2 motors with there shafts locked together. It's all the same thing electrically speaking. They all have 2 sets of halls and 2 sets of stator windings and require 2 controllers to run them individually. This would not change for stacking 2 Leaf motors for more torque. There is some machining needed so you can use a single shaft on both motors. The dual stators would need a way to mount them inline. This is just some custom machining to make parts for holding the motor stators and armatures inline. The best for weight is dual winds on the same stator. The best for compactness with the most power density is dual stators on either side of the same magnets. 2 motors locked together by their shafts is heavy, long and big. Basically everything about a single motor, but doubled. I tried this with a couple of inrunners. Yes it worked, but the complexity, added weight, HUGE size and so on was NOT compelling. A single larger motor capable of the same power as 2 smaller ones weighed less, cost less and was smaller than the 2 inrunner solution. IMHO..this is not a great solution to more motor torque.

A Tesla rear end is a complete unit. The controller, motor and differential are all a single unit and it will probably have the power capability you need.

All those battery modules...LOL...whatever you do and however you do it, you'll always need "all those battery modules". Leaf cells are part of a much larger module. Same for a Volt or Tesla or a hybrid. Expect this to be your single biggest cost no matter what else you do. Do you want to drive 5 miles or 300 miles. Expect 300 miles to cost a LOT more than 5 miles of range.

Leaf controllers are cheap because they are low power. Tesla controllers cost more because they are more powerful...lots more powerful! A Tesla controller does not have to run at 380v or 1000 amps. The IGBT's might be able to handle that, but you can use it a 100v and 100 amps if you want. I look at potential along with cost. If I can get a Tesla drive train and run it at lower power since I cant afford the expense of the batteries needed, then at least I am rolling now with the potential for a LOT more later. So what I can't afford the greater cost (big battery) to run the Tesla drive train at its capabilities and still have decent range right now. At least the potential for it is there now. The Nissan drive train...it's cheaper and less powerful and frankly this will limit you in the future. DIY cars tend to stay with you long term. You'll be doing considerable redesign work when you later decide that the Leaf power plant is not cutting it. Battery upgrades IMHO are easy to implement and can be done at most any time and incrementally. Major mechanical changes...you want to do that once and never again.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

Indeed Curious said:


> I don't know if you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think is happening. this is 3 Chevy bolt motor inverters. I'm not sure if bolt motors have dual shafts .


Someone took 3 Bolt motors and put them all on a single shaft. The rectangular box on top of the motors are the controllers. The are using them to drive the 3 motors. I bet this thing is 5 feet long! While it is a clever use of some readily available parts, it's also bigger, heavier and not better than a single larger motor and controller. I guess if I had 3 Bolt drive trains, I might do this with them. If I was looking to do a new conversion or build, this is NOT what I would do.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

rishimaze said:


> Who cares...all you want is the motor and controller and the rear axel to reuse. There's quite a few people that have figured out how to interface to the Tesla controllers or simply replace the brains with their own. This is a well understood thing. You don't need all the complexity of the entire Tesla to get the motor and controller to run. I'd explore this a bit more...it's not that difficult. The Tesla control electronics can be replaced with something much more friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great point.


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> @rishimaze good break down. I'll admit I used the terminology incorrectly in this thread. In my mind both BLDC and PMAC are "AC" motors so that's what I call them vs a Brushed DC motor. Though, all run off of DC input voltage compared to industrial motors that run off AC input which adds another layer of confusion.
> 
> I am using a LEAF motor in a heavier than LEAF vehicle, but I don't plan to take it on the highway or really do anything other than drive around town and offroad at slow speeds (less than 40mph). Counting on lots and lots of gear reduction to motivate it offroad.


I guess if I want to be clear here...or re-muddy the waters... ;P
1. BLDC and PMAC motors both run from a DC source and the control electronics create a trapezoid or sine wave in the stator windings to make commutation or rotation. It's full on AC in the motor with reversing current directions.
2. Induction motors can run direct from an AC sine wave source and require no "made" commutation. For uses like Tesla front wheel drive, the DC battery supply is converted into AC to run the induction motor.

So yeah...they are all AC motors...just different ways to do it.

Your Leaf motor implementation is making a trade off. Spin it faster and gear it lower so you have more torque at the wheels and less speed. This is great for off-road or low speed usage. I've done this too. For highway use...you need torque to overcome wind resistance and you'll need it to get to highway speeds. In that use case, the Leaf motor will not get a heavier car moving.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rishimaze said:


> Tesla is beating everyone in efficiency and they use BLDC or PMAC motors to do it.


I've never seen any indication from any objective data source that suggests that any of Tesla's various motors are any more efficient than those in other EVs. They use induction and PMAC motors, like every other EV manufacturer.



rishimaze said:


> Induction motors have a place. Tesla uses them as their front motor. When the motor is not powered, it creates a small spinning mass resistance. They can't be used for regen since they lack magnets on the armature.


Tesla used exclusively *induction motors* in the original Roadster and in the Model S and X until recently, both front and rear. The Model 3 and Y at least initially used an induction front motor (if AWD) and a PMAC rear motor. Recently Tesla has introduced PMAC motors to some Model S and X applications. All future models (Semi, Cybertruck, new Roadster) apparently use PMAC motors. For most EV applications, induction motors are no longer used by any manufacturer.

It is true that an unpowered induction motor provides minimal *resistance to spinning*, while an unpowered PMAC motor "cogs" as the magnets pass the stator windings; that is an advantage for induction motors in applications where the motor turns without power routinely (as can be done with one axle of an AWD EV, or in some hybrid configurations). Despite being unpowered the vast majority of the time, the electric rear drive unit of a Toyota transverse-engine AWD hybrid (such as the Highlander, RAV4, and recent "AWD-e" Prius variants) is PMAC, not induction.

Induction motors certainly do work for *regenerative braking*, and that feature is used in all EVs and hybrids with induction motors; even the basic induction motors and controllers sold for hobbyist EV conversions include regen. The magnetic field in the rotor (armature) is induced the same way that it is in motoring operation.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Indeed Curious said:


> Yeah but Teslas seem so difficult to get working... considering that you have to fool the motor into believing that it's in side of an intact Tesla before it will work.


That's true of any production EV. The workarounds include controllers which emulate the CAN (computer network) messages expected by the OEM components, and replacing the controller logic hardware with an equivalent that omits the OEM restrictions and provides accessible programming (as rishimaze mentioned). Both of those solutions are available for a Tesla or a Leaf drive unit, but generally not for others simply because Tesla and Leaf are the most common.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

The hollow Bolt motor shaft (unlike the solid Leaf motor shaft) makes it easier to connect them in series, as in that example, but there would be substantial custom machining involved for both the shaft and the housings needed.

The Bolt's motor is likely the least expensive 150 kW motor available with a hollow shaft that makes this relatively easy - which is probably why it was done - but combining them is far from ideal, technically.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> In my mind both BLDC and PMAC are "AC" motors so that's what I call them vs a Brushed DC motor. Though, all run off of DC input voltage compared to industrial motors that run off AC input which adds another layer of confusion.


As later clarified, neither BLDC nor PMAC motors run from a DC input voltage; their *controllers* use a DC input, and produce an AC output, and the motor runs on the AC. A basic industrial AC motor (typically induction) run on a fixed-frequency AC input, and a variable speed industrial AC motor has a controller just like an EV, but with a rectifier on the front end so it can accept AC input power.

Induction motors can tolerate a supply of power vastly wrong in frequency for their speed, don't care about phase, and still struggle their way to a matching speed for normal operation - that's routinely done in fixed (industrial, commercial, residential) applications, but never in EVs. Synchronous motors (such as those commonly called BLDC and PMAC) need the supplied AC to be accurately in phase with their position (and so locked in frequency to their speed), so they always need a coordinated variable-frequency power supply (controller)... but every EV uses a suitable variable-frequency controller regardless of motor type.


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## Indeed Curious (May 19, 2021)

rishimaze said:


> Who cares...all you want is the motor and controller and the rear axel to reuse. There's quite a few people that have figured out how to interface to the Tesla controllers or simply replace the brains with their own. This is a well understood thing. You don't need all the complexity of the entire Tesla to get the motor and controller to run. I'd explore this a bit more...it's not that difficult. The Tesla control electronics can be replaced with something much more friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

Indeed Curious said:


> I posted a screenshot of 3 bolt motors that GM did for SEMA a while back earlier in this thread. It won't let me post again. Sigh...this thread got me overwhelmed now. I guess need to keep it simple and go back to D.C. motors.


It's really not any more or less complicated for you, the end user. All the main challenges remain no matter which motor technology you choose. You still need the right battery and you still need a controller for the motor and a throttle signal for the controller etc etc. A brushed DC controller is just a box with inputs and outputs just like a BLDC or PMAC controller. The difference is the BLDC or PMAC also need an inverter in between but with a production EV that is part of the motor package and comes with the motor (or salvage vehicle).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rishimaze said:


> For uses like Tesla front wheel drive, the DC battery supply is converted into AC to run the induction motor.


Yes, and the same for Tesla RWD. All those Tesla Model S/X large and small rear drive units that are available as salvage and for which aftermarket controllers are available are induction motors, too. The only Tesla non-induction motors available as salvage are Model 3 rear drives (which are PMAC).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> The difference is the BLDC or PMAC also need an inverter in between but with a production EV that is part of the motor package and comes with the motor (or salvage vehicle).


Well, yes, it's needed, but it doesn't necessarily "come with". For an aftermarket motor the controller is another item to purchase, sometimes bundled with the motor. For a motor salvaged from an EV the matching controller/inverter is often (but not always) integrated in the same physical package (housing), and the motor is almost always (but not necessarily) used with that inverter and often that controller.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

brian_ said:


> As later clarified, neither BLDC nor PMAC motors run from a DC input voltage; their *controllers* use a DC input, and produce an AC output, and the motor runs on the AC.


Ok fine. If you really want to get nitpicky let's do it. All EV motors _run_ off DC because that is what the battery provides.



brian_ said:


> Well, yes, it's needed, but it doesn't necessarily "come with". For an aftermarket motor the controller is another item to purchase, sometimes bundled with the motor. For a motor salvaged from an EV the matching controller/inverter is often (but not always) integrated in the same physical package (housing), and the motor is almost always (but not necessarily) used with that inverter and often that controller.


Well luckily in my post I specifically said "production EV."


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Ok fine. If you really want to get nitpicky let's do it. All EV motors _run_ off DC because that is what the battery provides.


But that's the point - motors are described by what runs them, not what runs something upstream (such as the controller/inverter input). All motors are solar-powered, except those running from nuclear fission power plants, if we want to be silly.  The DC and AC motor distinction is pretty straightforward if it's left at that basic level of "what is on the motor's input terminals".


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Electric Land Cruiser said:


> Well luckily in my post I specifically said "production EV."


But that's what I mean. If you buy an early Leaf motor, the controller/inverter is a separate box and may not be included in the purchase. If you buy a salvaged Leaf motor (even if it came with the inverter) and then run it with a homebuilt inverter that you learned to build from another forum, you're not using the OEM inverter. The inverter is not automatically included or used with a salvaged production EV motor, even though that is the most common (and probably most sensible) choice.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

fatty227 said:


> I'm getting ready to do a conversion, just doing early research right now. But I'm feeling a little lost and hoping for suggestions from people who have more experience than I!
> 
> What I'm looking to do is convert an old early 90s F 150. I'd love to bolt on to the existing manual transmission. (Yes I know one does not simply do that without some fabrication)
> 
> ...


Check this out AC motor in a full size pickup.... I met this guy and rode around in his truck...





AC Project | Baldor Motors | Topeka, KS


785-233-4750 - Find out more about our AC Project and specifications of the Baldor motor from Topeka Electric Motor.




www.topekaelectricmotor.com


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Teslas and induction motors...


I could swear that all rear motor implementations in Teslas were PM motors. I have never heard (maybe I forgot) that they used induction motors in the rear before.

So I read a little about induction motor regenerative braking. I'd never heard of this before! And it can be done. What I said earlier about this is obviously incorrect. There are limitations to it that a PM motor does not have.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

fatty227 said:


> I'm getting ready to do a conversion, just doing early research right now. But I'm feeling a little lost and hoping for suggestions from people who have more experience than I!
> 
> What I'm looking to do is convert an old early 90s F 150. I'd love to bolt on to the existing manual transmission. (Yes I know one does not simply do that without some fabrication)
> 
> ...


Here is a interesting thread to read if you got a couple of days...Lol
AC motor build with a Curtis Controller









1930 Model A Roadster build


Greetings to all: I dont want this thread to be boring, so I will only outline the basic steps when they happen. If you want to know more about something, please ask and I will fill it in more. CHASSIS: Pretty much your basic production 1930 Ford Model A frame that has been heavily modded...




www.diyelectriccar.com


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

fatty227 said:


> I'm getting ready to do a conversion, just doing early research right now. But I'm feeling a little lost and hoping for suggestions from people who have more experience than I!
> 
> What I'm looking to do is convert an old early 90s F 150. I'd love to bolt on to the existing manual transmission. (Yes I know one does not simply do that without some fabrication)
> 
> ...


Here is a link on Dean mizlplix driving his car with one of my rewinds for a Curtis Controller



Ivan's Garage Sonoma Electric Vehicle


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## rishimaze (May 23, 2021)

Ivansgarage said:


> Here is a link on Dean mizlplix driving his car with one of my rewinds for a Curtis Controller
> 
> 
> 
> Ivan's Garage Sonoma Electric Vehicle


I tried rewinding an inrunner, but the space for the armature was seriously cramped and made it quite tedious. There was about a 2" hole to work in. I gave up after a while. Outrunners and hub motors of any size are pretty easy to rewind. I'd have to find a larger inrunner and try again...something like the size of your motor would probably be pretty straight forward to wind.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

rishimaze said:


> I could swear that all rear motor implementations in Teslas were PM motors. I have never heard (maybe I forgot) that they used induction motors in the rear before.


Perhaps you're confusing the Model 3 (always a PM motor in the rear) with the earlier Tesla models (always induction motors at both axles until very recently).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> Check this out AC motor in a full size pickup.... I met this guy and rode around in his truck...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that must be slow... and burning up energy to do nothing but churn transmission fluid at idle would be frustrating. I hope that was built at least several years ago; everything about it (low voltage, automatic transmission, alternator for 12 V...) is undesirable given currently available technology and components.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Wow, that must be slow... and burning up energy to do nothing but churn transmission fluid at idle would be frustrating. I hope that was built at least several years ago; everything about it (low voltage, automatic transmission, alternator for 12 V...) is undesirable given currently available technology and components.


OMG we had jumped on the freeway cruising along at 70 MPH, it is not slow....


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Wow, that must be slow... and burning up energy to do nothing but churn transmission fluid at idle would be frustrating. I hope that was built at least several years ago; everything about it (low voltage, automatic transmission, alternator for 12 V...) is undesirable given currently available technology and components.


This is one of the biggest reason I have not posted on here for years, the stupidity is overwhelming....


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> OMG we had jumped on the freeway cruising along at 70 MPH, it is not slow....


Everything can do 70 mph; it's getting there in a reasonable time that requires significant power. Most current vehicles are so overpowered that I suppose a massive reduction in performance is not that noticeable.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Ivansgarage said:


> This is one of the biggest reason I have not posted on here for years, the stupidity is overwhelming....


Yes, I suppose since no company manufacturing EVs has chosen to use a torque converter automatic and idle the drive motor to run accessories, they must all be overwhelmingly stupid.


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## Electric Land Cruiser (Dec 30, 2020)

@brian_ the video was posted 10 years ago. You could have checked yourself before insulting. He has a home built EV, actually two! They do deliveries all over town every day. That's pretty impressive.


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