# Is converting now a waste of time?



## cdbldr (Feb 4, 2009)

I am all ready to start my conversion, but I have to say I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it to go for it a this point! Nissan and Toyota both say they're coming out with electric cars in a year or two, and the Volt would be all-electric for the first 40 miles, which is more than enough for my daily routine. And don't even get me started on my lust for a Fisker Karma...

Meanwhile, I'm about to spend a lot of time and money on a home-made car loaded with 1000lbs of battery that will have limited range, no heat/ac, and pretty dismal performance in top speed, acceleration, range...I want an electric car, but should I wait a year or two until they're being sold, or Li-Fe batteries become a mainstream option for conversions? With so much just on the horizon, is it a waste of time now?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

"On the horizon " has been there for many years....

Not much has come to fruition in the past 20.

Build now and enjoy your EV.

For what I buillt mine for, the fun has and is great. 

Sitting on the sidelines is not a good lifestyle.

Getting your feet wet is and the GRIN is worth it!!!

Not everyone will be able or want to pay $40,000 to go 40 miles.....


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Coley said:


> "On the horizon " has been there for many years....


I concur.... I think we have a 5 year window until e-cars are actually in showrooms.

d


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## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

Just do it now, there is no better feeling of satisfaction than building then driving daily your work,, anyone can buy an electric car not everyone can build one.

Brian


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

While your car may start out with 1000lbs of lead acid and a 30 or 40 mile range, when (or IF) the big boys get their acts together and start building EVs cars at a decent price point with better specs, that will also mean better batteries should start getting cheaper. this means your well-engineered conversion of a good quality car might well double its range and performance and cut its weight by a few hundred pounds with a battery upgrade.

I'm in the "I'll believe it when I can buy it" camp too. That is why I built my own.

Good Luck.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Volvo presented their first concept hybrid car back in the early 80's or so, claiming we'd see them in the streets during the 90's. After that it went dead silent and nothing happened in Sweden until Toyota started to sell Prius. Unfortunately Prius suck (my personal opinion, of course) since you can't go faster than 30 mph without starting the ICE and as far as I know Toyota still don't sell a plug-in version in Sweden.

Hydrogen cars have been "within 15 years" for way over 15 years now, nothing happens. There's been prototypes for over 15 years as well, still no go. A few years ago BMW had several prototypes out in the streets claiming it would just be a few years now! I'm still waiting.

Electric cars are already produced by different companies all over the world. They're either useless (glorified golf carts) or totally out of at least my price range. It will probably take quite some more years before mass production makes the prices drop to sane levels.

So far I haven't seen anything that has made me change my opinion that the etablished car industry won't do anything (either because of incompethence or politics) until they're forced to since that's what they've always done during the history. When the Swedish politicians, in a surprising act of determination, decided all new cars would have to have catalysts from year 1989 the car industry went ballistic and claimed that it couldn't be done and the cars would be too expensive despite catalysts already existed and were a demand in for example Californa (I believe?) already. Of course it was possible and of course they didn't end up being too expensive, it was business as usual but with less exhaust. Fancy that.

So seeing is believing, indeed. Personally I believe that when the EV's finally are here it won't be thanks to the now existing car gigants and by that time it might be too late for them to adapt. I might be wrong (I've been before...) but I don't think I'll take a job in the car industry at the moment...

Besides, building your own EV seems to be a fun hobby (just have to find some spare time, and decide on a donor, to start doing it). Writing software for a controller is indeed fun as ....!


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I agree with everyone else..

first, you won't be able to by a four seater EV from anyone for 10-12k... that's what most people spend on a conversion (donor and components vary wildly)

second, YOU built it!! not some faceless person on a line in some unkown factory somewhere..

thirdly, you're recycling in its finest!!! Many of the donors people use are at or nearing their useful lifespan... now they have a brand new lease on life as a clean fuel vehicle!

Built it, have fun and enjoy it! And if you're not going to have fun building it, hire a converter to do it for you!


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## Twilly (Jan 22, 2008)

cdbldr said:


> I am all ready to start my conversion, but I have to say I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it to go for it a this point! Nissan and Toyota both say they're coming out with electric cars in a year or two, and the Volt would be all-electric for the first 40 miles, which is more than enough for my daily routine. And don't even get me started on my lust for a Fisker Karma...
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm about to spend a lot of time and money on a home-made car loaded with 1000lbs of battery that will have limited range, no heat/ac, and pretty dismal performance in top speed, acceleration, range...I want an electric car, but should I wait a year or two until they're being sold, or Li-Fe batteries become a mainstream option for conversions? With so much just on the horizon, is it a waste of time now?


I with everyone else, If there is a all electric on a showroom floor this time next year, I will eat my conversion.

If built correctly, your conversion should have the same or better acceleration than the ICE, and it is a blast to drive.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Twilly said:


> I with everyone else, If there is a all electric on a showroom floor this time next year, I will eat my conversion.


That will be a sight! Don't forget to put up a video on YouTube if you do it.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Converting mine was the most fun I've had in the garage for years.

Cursed maybe like two times the entire time working on it.

Had I left the money invested, it would have been gone by now and had nothing in return.

One of the good things I like about converting is that I can take the stuff out of my current 
donor car and throw it into another. It's sorta like when I was younger...I still keep an eye out 
for one with a sexier body. 

Like this one: 

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o42/jaynethecat/Peugeot-e-Motion-4.jpg

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o42/jaynethecat/Peugeot-Emotion-car.jpg

Is it a waste of time...I vote NO.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

cdbldr
No, it's not a waste of time and your car can have heat. Click on this link:

http://www.seatheaters.ca/products.php
I am purchasing two of the $90.00 kits for my Beetle.

Also many builders have installed a conventional hairdryer into their defroster system (1200 watts). You'll be shutting off the defroster in 3 minutes as the heat from the seats and the defroster will blow you out of the car. Small and well insulated is the way to go to retain heat once the vehicle is warm.

As for top speed and acceleration. I've had my Beetle up to 61mph with no top on it. Once I install the top....65 should be no problem and to be honest most of my driving will be done at speeds less than 45 mph. So why do I even need 65? 
Acceleration? My little D&D ES-31B motor has enough torque to have broken the Wilderness EV coupler twice. (partly my fault....I have a heavy foot) I have since designed and had a new coupler machined using a brand new Clutch Hub and double Stick Welded it myself to the Lovejoy Tube. The acceleration is plenty strong for me.
Lets assume you could afford a Volt. Do you really think you will get anything close to a 40 mile range driving it agressively?
Just a few thoughts...
Roy


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

I think the big drawback of a DIY conversion is not being able to take advantage of the new tax incentives for new plugins/evs (up to what, $7,500?). I've been biding my time waiting for lithium to get cheaper but I think it's probably getting close to as cheap as it's ever going to get.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

saab96 said:


> I think the big drawback of a DIY conversion is not being able to take advantage of the new tax incentives for new plugins/evs (up to what, $7,500?). I've been biding my time waiting for lithium to get cheaper but I think it's probably getting close to as cheap as it's ever going to get.


Yeah, seems crazy that they wouldn't let us have that credit.. hell, we're doing more good by taking old ICE vehicles off the road and turning them into EV's than any manufacturer creating a brand new vehicle and using all new materials.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree Patricio.
And cdbldr lives in Colorado where he can recover 100% of his costs thru a state tax deduction. Wish I had that here in NJ. We should all write to
Obama and request a tax incentive for Conversions.
If I had only a 50% tax incentive I would order a Lithium Pack tomorrow.
Roy


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

cdbldr said:


> Meanwhile, I'm about to spend a lot of time and money on a home-made car loaded with 1000lbs of battery that will have limited range, no heat/ac, and pretty dismal performance in top speed, acceleration, range...


GM's EV1 had lead acid batteries if I remember correctly and seems people went gaga (technical term ) over it. I see no reason my home built couldn't do as good as a lead acid powered EV1. Oh and at a fraction of the cost of any of the new EV's.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

New EVs 'just around the bend'?

I've heard this song before. The Citicar. The Electrovair. The EV-1. Where are they now? A reliable and inexpensive EV is ALWAYS 'just around the bend'.

If you have the time, expertise and money to do so, build your own. Build what you want, have fun with it...and on the day 'just around the corner' finally arrives, your design will probably STILL outdo theirs. 

And if their design is better, buy the aftermarket parts and refit.


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## cdbldr (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks for all your input on this! What's really driving my indecision is the tax credit I can get in Colorado, but only ONCE per car, and you can carry it forward for five years. Because I don't make enough money to have huge tax bills every year, I will probably only be able to do a conversion once every few years--so I want to get it right the first time!. 

If some type of Lithium battery will be available in a year or so, I would rather wait and use my credit on that. If I blow my credit on FLA now I won't be able to afford lithium later. So I have to decide--lead acid now, wait for lithium to be more user-friendly for a tech moron like me, or simply wait for a mainstream electric car?

Colorado will also give you a tax credit on purchasing an already-made electric car--they'll pay most of the difference of what the extra cost is compared to a similar ICE car.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

cdbldr said:


> If some type of Lithium battery will be available in a year or so, I would rather wait and use my credit on that. If I blow my credit on FLA now I won't be able to afford lithium later.


If you can realise the EV of your needs with lead aid, GO for it! Pile up the money you're not spending on gas and use that money to go lithium for the next pack if you want that extra performance.

Personally I lean towards skipping lead acid, but that's because of technical difficulties. I need to go too far and too fast for lead acid to feel like a good option and to make things worse our winters are bloody cold. If I lived in the city (instead of out in the outback) I'd go with lead acid instead.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Most Posters here tell me that you always damage your first Battery Pack-if LA is 'good enough for now', go for it. The LA usually lasts from 3-5 years, plenty of time to save up for(and research) a Lithium pack and a BMS-not to mention the price will (probably) be lower in the future.

In fact, if you can find some used LA with some life left in them (a year or more) and get them for next to nothing, that would be a perfect first-time pack...short-lived a little run-down, but good enough to work all the kinks and quirks out of your new EV systems. If you can get a contact in a Battery shop, you might be able to get some Deep-cycles turned in for the Core charge, and revitalize them for about a year...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

order99 said:


> Most Posters here tell me that you always damage your first Battery Pack-if LA is 'good enough for now', go for it.


I think the main reason people ruin the first pack is because they go cheap. The first investment is rather steep so they cut corners by getting a cheap charger etc. I've read many posts where some happy DIY'ers first hurry their conversions to be able to reach the grin, then, after some weeks or months, they realise that the batteries don't fare well by the sub-standard charging routine, bites the bullet and buy a GOOD charger. By that time the pack much likely has already taken a serious shot and you've lost several cycles in the pack.

Besides that, I really don't see why the first pack has to be ruined. Do your conversion, and do it good, and the pack should be all dandy. Rush the conversion and you're likely to screw something up.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

cdbldr
Waiting for Lithium to come down in price may prove to be a dissapointment. I hope I am wrong as I would also like to purchase
20kwh for less than $10,000.00
Here's why: The American Dollar has fallen 17% against the Yuan in just the past year and given the huge amounts of paper Uncle Sam is printing, it is likely to continue to fall.
So Ricky Li Wong and his Chinese compatriots are offering to sell us 20kwh of Lifepo for $14,000.00USD which converts to n Yuan. In just the past year if he sells those batteries to you he now has n -17%Yuan for that same $14,000.00USD. You see what is happening.
Our only hope is this: Because there is a global recession, China included,
these Lithium Manufacturers will experience less demand and will drop prices in an effort to increase demand and keep their heads above water.
Roy


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Hang in there your better off to do it yourself. My company is developing a kit to convert the Ford Explorer 1995-2001 to all electric,the car is driveable now. We are working on the transmission shifting. The car uses the cheapest battery's $60.00 each. so you can change them to a better type as they become available all system work AC-PS-Heater. This kit is an AC High voltage system same as the chevy volt (336 volts DC to 336 AC).Take a look.
http://www.htcracing.com/electriccar.htm


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Just like everybody else is saying...it's worth it. I finally got to drive mine just last night and wow it was so much fun! Still grinning!

Buying any of the new cars when they do come out isn't going to be cheap and you'll be able to convert one using lithium for still cheaper than buying a new car.

No heat and AC you say? Put it in... Neither are hard to do. The new vehicles coming out will have the same hit on range when using these features just as yours. The lithium packs will help out here too. I went with the lithium route as I needed that extra range.


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## cdbldr (Feb 4, 2009)

Thank you all for the feedback--just wanted to let you know that I just ordered my 120volt system for my 78 Beetle! Now let's hope that a tech-idiot like me can get it all put together---

Wish me luck!


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

cdbldr said:


> Thank you all for the feedback--just wanted to let you know that I just ordered my 120volt system for my 78 Beetle! Now let's hope that a tech-idiot like me can get it all put together---
> 
> Wish me luck!


Congrats! The fun begins!
Keep us posted on the progress and take lots of pictures!


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

cdbldr
Good move Chris! 
If you ordered the D&D ES-31B Motor you can install it in ONE of three ways. 
1. Remove the body.
2. Drop the transaxle when you remove the engine, mount the motor, then reinstall the transaxle.
3. Cut the apron.

I did a body off restoration of my Beetle so the first install was easy.
Then I broke the coupler twice and not wanting to remove the body or transaxle, I cut the apron to remove & reinstall the motor. To reattach the apron section, I welded two bars across the inside of the cut section and secured it with small nuts & bolts. After I paint the car, I will install door guards on the edges to give it a finished look. I'm enclosing a picture of the apron for you and also a pic of my Kill-A-Watt Meter (available at Harbor Freight). This little $30 device tells me the cost per charge, KW per charge, power factor of my charger and keeps track of multiple charges. It's showing $2.09 in the pic which was the total cost of the last 2 charges.
Message me if you need advice as you go. - Roy


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