# Kostov dual 220V 9" or single Netgain Warp11HV



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

depends on what you are doing with them. The Kostovs are rumored to not handle obscene amounts of current for longer than a 1/4 mile. Best to verify with Plamenator.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

somanywelps said:


> I can't see any downside to the dual 9"s other than being slightly more expensive.
> 
> (These are Series internally and will be run in series)
> (1400A, 300+V controller)
> ...


Why not dual Netgain 9" motors? or dual Netgain 11" motors?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Dual 9" netgains: 

significantly more expensive, heavier, and uncomfortably low voltage capacity vs both the kostov 9"s or the netgain 11HV 

Dual 11" netgains: 

overkill for a street car, very very heavy, very very expensive. 

So it's basically 2x kostov 9" or Netgain 11HV. 

[email protected] (180V per) for ~5-10 secs will really jeopardize the kostovs even with forced air cooling? 

[email protected] for the 11HV is fine though? 

2000A I could see frying the kostovs though... 

(who is this Plamenator fellow? I know there's a kostov rep on here somewhere)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

John Wayland ran currents like that and talks about drag racing his here: http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php . I burned up my brushes on my 11 inch doing 1000 A for around 1/2 mile. John and I had/have the old style, the new one could be better. Do note, however, John ran rather high Voltage on his. I notice mine has about twice the comm bars of my friend's Warp 11 incher (more bars are better for high voltage). I also noticed my brush gear was smaller (not as good for higher currents).



somanywelps said:


> Dual 9" netgains:
> 
> significantly more expensive, heavier, and uncomfortably low voltage capacity vs both the kostov 9"s or the netgain 11HV
> 
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

somanywelps said:


> ...
> So it's basically 2x kostov 9" or Netgain 11HV.
> 
> [email protected] (180V per) for ~5-10 secs will really jeopardize the kostovs even with forced air cooling?


During early dyno testing of the Soliton1 prototype we cooked a Kostov 9" (144V) after 14 seconds at 900A. The 144V version uses less turns of thicker "wire" than the 220V version, so I would expect the 220V version to cook off at an even lower current and/or in a shorter time.



somanywelps said:


> [email protected] for the 11HV is fine though?


By all accounts the 11HV is a great motor, but I am skeptical it can handle 1400A AND 288V at the same time for any useful length of time. After all, it uses the same rotor (armature) as the WarP-9 so it should have approximately the same continuous power rating. But I haven't actually tested one, whereas I have tested the WarP-9, Kostov 9" (144V) and WarP-11 (all incidental to dyno testing controllers, however - I'm not in the motor-testing business).



somanywelps said:


> (who is this Plamenator fellow? I know there's a kostov rep on here somewhere)


They would be one and the same...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

> During early dyno testing of the Soliton1 prototype we cooked a Kostov 9" (144V) after 14 seconds at 900A. The 144V version uses less turns of thicker "wire" than the 220V version, so I would expect the 220V version to cook off at an even lower current and/or in a shorter time.


 I noted this on Kostov's pages. (144V motor was 200A nominal and 220V motor was 170A nominal.) I'll PM Plamenator to see if he can join in. 

Edit: 
Basic question: I have a 3600-3700lb car at a standstill. I floor it and keep my foot down. Are either of these choices in danger of being damaged? 
How about with forced air cooling? 

(This has a transmission, so I can and will shift sometimes)


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

Answer to basic question is yes.
Both K9 dual and W11HV will melt in 15-30sec at 1000-1400A.

If your K9 dual (~90kg) is made of 2xK9 220V you can connect them in parallel.
In this way the dual motor will handle 350A continuous at 220V.
Overloading to 1400A is then "just" 4 times.
The overload will reduce rpm, so over-volting to 250-270V will be more acceptable.
In racing conditions, the high speed smaller commutators will probably survive even 8000rpm but do not take this as an official encouragement to do so. 
I am not saying this is safe but seems the setup that will take the most abuse.

W11HV (103kg) is probably rated for 225A continuous (no official data on that but W11 is for 225A.

Forced air cooling is seriously underestimated.
When a DC motor is rated for 225A/6000rpm it can last that long only at 6000rpm. When you overload or use it at less rpm, its ventilation exponentially worsens with the fall in rpm.

Unfortunately an axially joined dual motor cannot have forced air cooling on both motors. The setups with a small ventilator and a cooling shroud via a small opening in the brush cover in most cases are pathetic.

An interesting setup will be one using RebirthAuto's adaptor for joining motors side by side:
http://rebirthauto.com/ra-vwsa-twin.aspx

The motors can then have both forced air cooling and keep the standard shaft mounted fan. Just add Soliton1


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

To answer your questions we need to know what type of racing will you be competing in? If it is road course Long distance you me want a higher revving (voltage) motor, this will reduce your shifting points. 

Now if you plan on 1/4 mile drag racing you want the motors than can produce the higher torque (amps). Just to quote the World Famous car builder Enzo Ferrari "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Plamenator said:


> Answer to basic question is yes.
> Both K9 dual and W11HV will melt in 15-30sec at 1000-1400A.
> 
> If your K9 dual (~90kg) is made of 2xK9 220V you can connect them in parallel.
> ...


Thank you for your answer. In the case of forced air cooling I was going to be using something along this method (not these parts, lol $500): http://www.evsource.com/tls_motor_cooling.php 

High CFM blowers... will these work well enough? (The ones I looked at were somewhere around 250CFM). I see that you don't think they are powerful enough, how many CFM do I need? 

The emotorwerks controller I don't think can do parallel/series switching, so I'd rather lock in to series. Yes that will limit my RPM, but here's why: 



LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> To answer your questions we need to know what type of racing will you be competing in? If it is road course Long distance you me want a higher revving (voltage) motor, this will reduce your shifting points.
> 
> Now if you plan on 1/4 mile drag racing you want the motors than can produce the higher torque (amps). Just to quote the World Famous car builder Enzo Ferrari "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".


Here's my plan for the car: 

1) Daily driver to and from work (allows me to get used to the car, and saves on gas, maint, etc.) 

2) AutoX (allows me to get used to edges of handling) 

3) Tracking (and drag strip to see acceleration limits and get used to shifting under accel) 

4) open-day at race courses (laguna seca and thunderhill raceway) 

So it's going to be my daily driver, but having supercar power is fun  

And yes, I'm biasing toward torque rather than HP, I don't (currently) need top speed more than torque.


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

It is exactly those forced air cooling solutions that I meant.
Usually blower is underpowered but this is not the main problem.
At the end you blow air through a relatively small hose and via a 90 degree bend which limits air flow.
Tried it before I chose the current Kostov forced cooling but it did not work well.
Of course, there may be good arrangements that I have not discovered.

Indeed torque is important but high rpm gives you torque by allowing you to stay in lower gear longer - it is not a coincidence that major auto manufacturers look for 10 000-12 000rpm AC motors.
If you want more motor torque go for a bigger motor (10/11")- series/parallel connections provide the same torque assuming controller will not limit you by either voltage or amps.

I am not familiar with the "emotorworks controller". Whatever it is, connecting the 2xK9 220 motors in parallel is inferior unless the controller can give you 500V. Otherwise you will run out of voltage reducing your peak power and rpm (high rpm are essential to sport conversions - do not skip on that).


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Plamenator said:


> It is exactly those forced air cooling solutions that I meant.
> Usually blower is underpowered but this is not the main problem.
> At the end you blow air through a relatively small hose and via a 90 degree bend which limits air flow.
> Tried it before I chose the current Kostov forced cooling but it did not work well.
> ...


On the RPM front: 
Warp 11HV: 3000rpm nominal, 5000 rpm peak 

Kostov 9"s,: 6800rpm nominal, 8000 rpm peak? 

Also the dual 9"s give more ft*lb per Amp. 

I'm really leaning toward the 9"s, also heat dissapation should be better as the load is spread accross 2 motors. 

I will look into how to force air cool two motors. I may get a monster 10A fan and custom duct the airflow into the motors.


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

somanywelps said:


> On the RPM front:
> Warp 11HV: 3000rpm nominal, 5000 rpm peak.


That's the bit that confuses me about W11HV.
Manual indeed says 3000/5000 nominal/peak yet 225A+288V imply 7600rpm?!?! 


somanywelps said:


> Kostov 9"s,: 6800rpm nominal, 8000 rpm peak?


 Unofficial of course , never really tested above 7000...


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Plamenator said:


> That's the bit that confuses me about W11HV.
> Manual indeed says 3000/5000 nominal/peak yet 225A+288V imply 7600rpm?!?!
> Unofficial of course , never really tested above 7000...


That sounds like a really good reason to not go over that. 

Speaking of which... Your 144V 9"s are $1300 per(2x)==$2600. 

The dual setup is $700 more at $3300. 

How much for a dual 220V 9" (currently $1750 per)?


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

I can offer you a dual 9" (2x220V) for 4000$ but do buy through www.rebirthauto.com otherwise transport will cost you another 800-1000$.

Also have in mind I may  be biased so make a thorough research on the topic before you buy anything.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Plamenator said:


> I can offer you a dual 9" (2x220V) for 4000$ but do buy through www.rebirthauto.com otherwise transport will cost you another 800-1000$.
> 
> Also have in mind I may  be biased so make a thorough research on the topic before you buy anything.


Thanks, that's very fair. When I finally get all the parts to order lined up in a few months I'll contact you (I'm aware there's going to be quite a wait (2-3 months) on that part).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Plamenator said:


> It is exactly those forced air cooling solutions that I meant.
> Usually blower is underpowered but this is not the main problem.
> At the end you blow air through a relatively small hose and via a 90 degree bend which limits air flow.


I think there is some merit to forced air cooling based on temperature data obtained from an optical pyrometer aimed at the commutator. Turning the blower on while maintaining a constant load on the motor caused the commutator temperature to immediately drop 50C (from ~235C down to 185C). 185C is still too hot, but it's a helluva lot better than 235C! Seb [at Rebirth Auto] has the details on the blower, etc. - I just devised and operated the telemetry system while he drove a 4900# Volvo V70 conversion up and down the interstate trying to cook a *second* pair of motors...



Plamenator said:


> I am not familiar with the "emotorworks controller". Whatever it is, connecting the 2xK9 220 motors in parallel is inferior unless the controller can give you 500V. Otherwise you will run out of voltage reducing your peak power and rpm (high rpm are essential to sport conversions - do not skip on that).


I think you meant to write "in series" instead of the underlined "in parallel"...

As for the "emotorwerks" controller, that sounds like Valery (aka "valerun" here) of Electric Motor Werks. He bought a Soliton1 then all of a sudden decided he wanted to make his own controllers using IGBT modules, a laminated bus structure and the same "Power Ring" capacitor as us... Just a coincidence or outright copying, who knows, but either way he is going to learn the same lesson that I did a couple years ago: no one making products for this market is getting rich.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> but either way he is going to learn the same lesson that I did a couple years ago: no one making products for this market is getting rich.


perhaps he is doing whatever it is he is doing (I can't speculate) not to get rich but to have more flexibility, he might need a 500V 1000a controller...or he might be trying to offer to the public (including himself) a product at a more reasonable price.

this was off topic...but in terms of motor choice for this project, I think that dual 9" motors can offer more than enough torque for a sports car, and in the case of the 220v 9" Kostovs, they carry torque to high rpms so I would chose them over an 11" motor


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> I think there is some merit to forced air cooling based on temperature data obtained from an optical pyrometer aimed at the commutator. Turning the blower on while maintaining a constant load on the motor caused the commutator temperature to immediately drop 50C (from ~235C down to 185C). 185C is still too hot, but it's a helluva lot better than 235C! Seb [at Rebirth Auto] has the details on the blower, etc. - I just devised and operated the telemetry system while he drove a 4900# Volvo V70 conversion up and down the interstate trying to cook a *second* pair of motors...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What was the (approximate) CFM of the blower you were using? 

The soliton 1 is a very respected controller, but the reason I would prefer the emotorwerks controller is the following: 
1) 1400A 
2) Regenerative Braking 
3) Direct integration into BMW E46 OBC/ECU (So you get all gauges and DSC-T and whatnot). 
4) He's a 15 minute drive from me. 

I'm also a few months out from doing this so any kinks associated with deployment should be mostly worked out. 

Edit: How is the K9 220V so close to the K11 in torque?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have been asked to remind people to try and keep on topic on this thread please.

The discussion about manufacturing, marketing and producing controllers is interesting but straying off topic.
I will split the thread so the discussion can contine in the 'Controllers' forum here.

Thank you.
Admin


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

So how can the Kostov 9" 220V put out nearly as much torque as a Kostov 11 (144/192/250V)?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"So how can the Kostov 9" 220V put out nearly as much torque as a Kostov 11 (144/192/250V)?"

At the same amperage they won't. The Kostov 11" will put out more torque at a given amperage and the 11" will handle it for a longer time than a 9".

Your comparison of two setups are both interpole motors. The interpoles keep the commutator cooler by keeping the magnetism at neutral rather than requiring a brush advance. I'm not sure if there is an RPM, voltage, or amperage limit to this though.

I looked through Wayland's blog months back trying to find the instances and causes of the failed Kostov motor(s) but out of all of the information it seems he used one ADC motor, then went to a beefed up Kostov 11"(only one as far as I can tell), then the siamese 8", then siamese 9". At the bottom of the White Zombie history for 2000(early) he posted that the commutator and brushes, and rigging were fine. It seems it was the armature, you can read the whole thing if you'd like on his blog, this is just a snip. "The charred armature windings had molten bits of what were once windings...it would cost more than $1200 to build a new armature for the Kostov. Using a VOM, a continuity check between most all of the com bars to the armature's steel laminations showed a dead short, due to the melted insulation of the armature windings."

Basically their racing is what destroyed it, from the notes it seems it was multiple shots of high current with some of the final runs about 260v and 620 battery amps(higher amperage at lower battery voltage) that basically generated enough heat to kill it. 13.347 at 95.859mph is not bad for tech available in the late 90's when they originally put the motor in the car.

I'm looking to go with a Kostov 220v, the motor weighs 48kg, that is 105.6 pounds, double that for two. The Warp 11HV is about 225 pounds. I think I remember talk here about the series winding not being as tolerant to higher amp loads which is largely part of the fact that it is a 8.66" motor that is very lightweight(less metal in the windings) but the 220v series field mode configuration I think reduces what you'll ultimately be able to pull out of it as far as higher amperage over a longer period of time. ...I think, maybe someone can back me up on that with whether I'm right or wrong about the series versus parallel(144v) field modes. The reason why I want a 220v motor is that I'm converting a sub-2000 pound car and the engine I'm removing weighs 125lbs and a Warp 9 with a tailshaft can't fit and I don't want an Impulse 9, I like the idea of a 106 pound motor that has power out to higher RPMs.

Also, I think the idea behind the series field mode is to add more torque per amp, which requires a higher voltage for the same power. This motor seems to be for lighter conversions that use a higher voltage controller with modest amps(3x the rated amperage of the Kostov 220v is 528 amps). This makes it perfect for the Soliton Junior as far as I can tell as I'm sure an acceleration with peak 600 amps isn't too bad. It seems that based on a different thread at 220v to the motor the peak power would be at about 4500rpm. I'm planning to use a higher voltage and making sure I've got a good tach signal with RPM cutoff to get peak power to 5000RPM which is where I hit 60mph in 2nd gear.

In the end, for the weight of your vehicle and some of the uses you listed, I'm a little nervous that a dual 220v 9" or a single Warp11HV will handle that type of abuse. A 1/4" or a highway acceleration to 60 is one thing but when you starting talking about track driving where you are mashing the pedal a bunch, that takes a ton of motor.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

> At the same amperage they won't.


Look at the performance graphs on their site. 

Track driving is a long way off and if there was too much of an issue, the inconsistent throttle would give the thermometer time to alert of an impending problem. 

I've basically decided to go parallel (unless I get Z2K, so I have switching). 

700A per motor(620A actual) (1000A(917A actual) with Z2K) across both force cooled motors at 220V per (maybe a little higher with kostov's blessing) seems like a MUCH safer alternative.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

RPM/Volt differences of a Kostov9" Warp11HV and Warp9

The Kostov9 220V motor @ ~200V & 500A is at about 4250rpm
per the performance graph.

The Warp11HV graph @ 72V, if volts are linear to rpm then...
72V & 550A = 1200rpm
144V & 550A = 2400rpm
288V & 550A = 4800rpm

The Warp9 graph @ 72V , if volts are linear to rpm then...
72V & 500A = 2100rpm
144V & 500A = 4200rpm?
192V & 500A =5600rpm? << Warp9 voltage limit
288V & 500A = 8,400rpm?<< Don't you wish Netgain would make a Warp9HV, technically it would use 7" internals so the rpm would be even higher....

Does the Warp9 have more rpm/volt than the Kostov9?


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

I was looking at the K11 in Parallel field mode, whoops.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Turning the blower on while maintaining a constant load on the motor caused the commutator temperature to immediately drop 50C (from ~235C down to 185C). 185C is still too hot, but it's a helluva lot better than 235C!


Any idea what the CFM of that blower was? 

Also wouldn't it be hotter if it wasn't able to draw air through when the band blocks all air intake except from the blower?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

somanywelps said:


> Any idea what the CFM of that blower was?
> 
> Also wouldn't it be hotter if it wasn't able to draw air through when the band blocks all air intake except from the blower?


No idea of the CFM - I don't get involved much with Rebirth Auto. IIRC it drew about 12A at 12V and was a squirrel cage type.

As for your second question, what is "it"? The commutator, specifically, or the motor, generally?

At high RPM it is possible the blower actually restricts the amount of air through the motor, but experience seems to indicate that the benefit of pushing much more air through the motor at low RPM vastly outweighs any reduction in airflow at high RPM. I would even go so far as to that any motor for a traction application (AC or DC) should ditch the internal fan and just use an external blower for cooling.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> I would even go so far as to that any motor for a traction application (AC or DC) should ditch the internal fan and just use an external blower for cooling.


That's basically the K11 Alpha, still an issue with dual motoring it though.

The only 12A 12V blower I'm aware of is a 250CFM one, and it's the highest CFM 12V one I've seen so that's probably it.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

somanywelps said:


> That's basically the K11 Alpha, still an issue with dual motoring it though.


Not an issue if you convert an AWD car! I have this pipe dream  of converting a B5 A4 Quattro, one motor to each axle direct drive. The K11 Alphas would be nice but they still don't spin to a higher rpm than the Impulse9's that the white zombie is using; plus the impulse9's are cheaper.

The differentials and half shafts would have to be upgraded since it would be direct drive and would need a lot of torque...2000A would be ~1000ftlbs total which is what the white zombie is getting.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

Bowser330 said:


> Not an issue if you convert an AWD car! I have this pipe dream  of converting a B5 A4 Quattro, one motor to each axle direct drive. The K11 Alphas would be nice but they still don't spin to a higher rpm than the Impulse9's that the white zombie is using; plus the impulse9's are cheaper.
> 
> The differentials and half shafts would have to be upgraded since it would be direct drive and would need a lot of torque...2000A would be ~1000ftlbs total which is what the white zombie is getting.


It appears that the K11A has about 10% less torque at a given amperage than the K11 250V.

Also, dual 11 direct drive at 1400A is 900 ft-lb, using a 3.64 diff it's not bad, by the time you hit 20mph you'd be able to match performance cars, and by the time you're at 40mph you have supercar power.


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