# Getting rid of PCM in Saturn



## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

*GO to last pages for new STUFF!!

*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I edited this opening as it contains other things at the end than about the PCM... hope it is helpful!

Tachometer at the end added 11/22/09 ------------ 

I have been working on getting rid of the PCM in a 1999 Saturn Sl2. Bypassed the Tachometer on atzi's 1998 Saturn... http://www.saturn.offical.net/node/326
So now it is on to the speedometer. I used a Heathkit (yep, I have one!) function generator
to send a pure sine wave to the PCM... I settled on 60 MPH as this is the most important one to use - as it represents 1 mile per min or according to the output in all the manuals I could find the Speedometer = 5000 pulses per mile (thus per min) .. What is strange is all the information I can find says Saturn VSS has 10000 pulses per mile (ppm) so at 60 mph I should have 10000 = 1 min and 10000/60 = 166.66666 HZ... right?
But I get 230 HZ for 60 mph !! that equates to 13800 ppm (VSS sine wave NOT square wave to speedometer) . SO if that is true then there is a strange number to divide by to get the square waves for the speedometer ! 13800 / 5000 = 2.76 .. not the best number to digitally divide by !!


So it does a bit of strange processing NOT the simple divide by 2 that 10000ppm would get me !

The formula I use to get MPH from the sine wave is ---[ MPH x 13800 / 60 /60 = HZ] or 60 x 13800 = 828000 /60 = 13800 /60 = 230 Hz..
Easier to see a different one:
30 (MPH) x 13800 (PPM) = 414000 /60 (min) = 6900 /60 (sec) = 115 HZ (or cycles per sec) 
AND YES 115 hz gives me 30 mph!!

I thought I would throw this out to see what others think! Perhaps they phase lock it at some frequency but not sure!

Dave


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Great work! I'd like to toss the PCM in mine too, but I really want to be able to keep the OEM tach and speedometer.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Great work! I'd like to toss the PCM in mine too, but I really want to be able to keep the OEM tach and speedometer.


I have found out much more and will post more pics with scope shots crazy way the PCM figures from VSS - thought it might be a straight algorithm - can't tell if it uses a PLL or just filters with division......
Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Used a safety pin into D6 connector Pumped 230 hz sine wave in to the VSS input...

Got 60 MPH MPH OUT AND 84.32 HZ out of PCM!!


SCOPE:
230 HZ SINE (bottom) in .............. 84.32 perfect SQUARE WAVE OUT(top) !!!!!!!! 5000 (ppm that manual says) /84.32 = 59.29 MPH
(close enough)
Figure the meter is off a few HZ and it comes to 5000ppm / 60 sec = 83.33333 my original math for factory!!!

So what the heck is 230 HZ in ? 230 / 84.32 = 2.7277039 aprox ....

Two things still wrong here - the ratio of 2.7 and how the heck are they getting the division ? well I need more work there... Have discovered a pure sine is clean but under noise of EV motor it introduces more pulses -- this opens up a whole new area of RF Noise besides our radios 


Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

PS I ran 28 miles sitting still on the odometer !! lol
Dave


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

The VSS puts out a different frequency than the PCM? Why the heck would they do that? Seems to me like it only complicates things.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> The VSS puts out a different frequency than the PCM? Why the heck would they do that? Seems to me like it only complicates things.


The PCM will compensate for various gear ratios, tire size, maybe models, but why I am getting what I am does not relate to what is in certain manuals.. I have run across 10000 ppm for GM and Saturn FROM VSS - that would be nice as it is 2 to 1 (5000 ppm) - easy to convert the sine to pulse at one half frequency with single flip-flop........

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino

scroll down to chart on various cars......

If anyone has more info on VSS from Saturn - jump in here

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well quick thought... using a PLL like a 4046 locked to 4 X 230 HZ (sine for 60 MPH) out of VSS then divided by 11 (non fraction - my 2.7x X 4) gives 83.xxxx square wave that divided into the 5000 ppm will give me 60 MPH - well close enough!! I will make that and post some info.....

So since my Saturn only needs the PCM for Speedometer and Tach it looks like a couple of chips can do the job... Now on to interfaceing the temp gauge with pulse width modulation from a thermistor input .... Still no ideas out there?

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well a PLL of 230 X 100 then divided by 276 will yield the 83.33333 for the 60 MPH on the speedo.... going to make it in components as a pic or Ardunio processor will not output the exact numbers I need... It will be more accurate than the PCM as it will also have a filter system for extreme noise! Both my speedometer and tach will run seperate from all the other things I want to do! I intend to use ALL the idiot lights (of course I will replace them with LEDS! ) out of my own processor and all the temperature sensors, inputs, I can make do other things... OK so we shall see!!!! Be it warped - I still have a sense of humor ...

Dave


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm sorry we don't have anyone else here that can contribute much to your thread, but I am following it. Please keep up the good work.

I actually toyed with the idea of putting "idiot lights" at the front of the dash panel where it sweeps upward. The idea being to copy the look of the EV1.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> I'm sorry we don't have anyone else here that can contribute much to your thread, but I am following it. Please keep up the good work.
> 
> I actually toyed with the idea of putting "idiot lights" at the front of the dash panel where it sweeps upward. The idea being to copy the look of the EV1.


It is ok -- I see a lot have been looking... when I add my own processor, it speaks and shows SOC on the fuel gauge and temps on the temp gauge ( and a small screen ) it may spark a few points to converse with some... I have "lurked" around a bit myself and watched others do some really different things....

Dave


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## Sega (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey, could you please tell me where you located that D6 connector for the speed sensor? I've looked through my Saturn and I can't find it.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sega said:


> Hey, could you please tell me where you located that D6 connector for the speed sensor? I've looked through my Saturn and I can't find it.


What year do you have and where is your PCM located.. I assume you are referring to the pickup for direct tach as on 

http://www.saturn.offical.net/?q=node/304

or are you looking to find the speedometer pickup on the transaxle?

Dave


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## Sega (Mar 24, 2008)

I am looking for the speedo pickup. I'm (gradually) making an EV1 inspired dash but I've spent a few hours without luck looking for the speedo sender (found switch 12v power and ground easily). This is a side track from my EV conversion of course.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sega said:


> I am looking for the speedo pickup. I'm (gradually) making an EV1 inspired dash but I've spent a few hours without luck looking for the speedo sender (found switch 12v power and ground easily). This is a side track from my EV conversion of course.


If you have a saturn it should be on the transaxle case... blue top and a purple and yellow wire to the PCM...
Dave


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sega said:


> I'm (gradually) making an EV1 inspired dash


Please keep us upadated


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sega said:


> I'm (gradually) making an EV1 inspired dash


You mean like this?

Me too!


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## Sega (Mar 24, 2008)

Yup, and will do. It'll take a while, especially because the speedometer I got on ebay doesn't display in Kilos which is what I drive in, so I probably won't use it. I found the speed sender cables, thank you  Do you know of any in the plug that connects to the instrument panel directly? I'm going to tinker with it tomorrow, and if that fails I'll run wires off the sender you showed me.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sega said:


> I found the speed sender cables, thank you  Do you know of any in the plug that connects to the instrument panel directly? I'm going to tinker with it tomorrow, and if that fails I'll run wires off the sender you showed me.


Still not clear on your car and model - year - all that makes a difference....

Dave


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## Sega (Mar 24, 2008)

My bad, it's a 2000 SC2. My Haynes manual doesn't help much with the dash wires.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sega said:


> My bad, it's a 2000 SC2. My Haynes manual doesn't help much with the dash wires.


You might have a CAN bus but I am not sure yet if so check out this site to see some great work.....

http://www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com/

Dave


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## iss407 (Dec 6, 2007)

I am converting a '94 SC2 and I was planning to pull the PCM and replace the dash gage cluster altogether. For a speedometer I was going to just get an $80 Tomtom GPS unit. More accurate and very simple. As an added benefit I can yank it out and use it for trips when I'm not using the EV.

For a tach I was going to forego the dial indicator and just use a row of LEDs, like race cars do now. I don't need exact RPMs, just a few key points. I would use a simple PIC microcontroller with an optical pickup in the transmission bell housing. It can be programmed for the motor and reprogramed if a different motor is installed. Use green LEDs for the optimal range, yellow for above and below and red for high RPMs approaching max motor speed. Some of the larger PICs have a huge number of digital I/O pins and they can drive LEDs directly. 12-16 LEDs would be more than enough.

If I put in a lot of extra effor I can get motor voltage and current. With an efficiency map of the motor I can calculate the most efficient RPM range on the fly. With tri-color LEDs I can change the green/yellow/red color ranges on the LEDs based on the current motor load. With an additional sensor on the intermediate drive shaft I can get speed as well. Driving a couple of 7-segment displays is trivial with a PIC in case real digital info is needed. 

I've considered putting a couple 7-segment LEDs wired for mirrored output and resting on the dash so I could see the reflection in the windshield. Bingo, a heads up display. That would work for the tach LEDs as well.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

iss407 said:


> I've considered putting a couple 7-segment LEDs wired for mirrored output and resting on the dash so I could see the reflection in the windshield. Bingo, a heads up display. That would work for the tach LEDs as well.


That would all be nice...
I am keeping all stock gauges (and they will all function on my electronics) and insetting the digital readouts (they will shadow all the analog with much more flash) in the tray above the Radio - they will hide when not in use.... sort of stealth EV 

There is more in line of voice control but just gotta get the thing rolling ! I work 7 days and sometimes close to 18 hours...........
Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Just in case any one was trying to figure out what the BLUE wire was on some fans - it is a tach output - and you can use it to sense that the fan is turning - or not!

Dave


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## idoco (Nov 19, 2008)

Dave. I wish you luck trying to save the factory speedo. I initially had the same idea with my Saturn Vue conversion. I decided it was cheaper to just replace the guages with aftermarket ones rather than spend way more in time trying to reverse engineer the system. 

I ended up keeping the VSS but using the aftermarket speedo. The "trick" for using the VSS was that it needed a pull up resistor (can't remember if if was 1K or 10K) connected to the send wire and a 12V source. http://justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html

The aftermarket speedo self calibrated to the VSS. All I had to do was get the car to a known speed and push a button. The speedometer did all of the calculations! That was good news for me but bad for you since I never hooked up the oscope to the VSS :-(

The Vue is a 2002 so I don't know how much things changed from your year. The VSS is mounted on the transaxle. It sends an analog signal to the engine control module(ECM). (Not sure if this is the PCM on your vehicle). The ECM then relays the info to the body control module(BCM) via the CAN bus. The BCM drives the speedo.

If I were hell bent on keeping the factory speedo my next step would have been to hook the VSS back to the ECM. Then I would connect the ECM back to the CAN bus and power up the ECM. I tried this with the OEM tach, but it didn't work. The difference is that I was using an aftermarket RPM sensor for the input instead of the OEM sensor. So maybe with the OEM VSS it could work.

Good luck.
Idoco

P.S. I see you are using the Hayne's manual. I would highly recommend the OEM manuals. Way more info, especially on wiring.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

On my 99 (or less years ) you can keep the PCM and speedometer will work fine - on those years one can bypass the tachometer and go direct to the white tachometer to a pickup and a 6 lobe cam... yes 6 not 4 and it works fine as I have explained in first input on this thread... Since most of yours is on a bus (CAN) configuration it may be quite different in the head end... 

My contention is on the earlier models and other makes one need only know the pulses that come FROM the PCM and throw it out..... ALL the wires to Idiot lights can be cut after the PCM and used with your own circuits i.e. temp light to the high temp switch in most motors... Fuel gauge can be used with an algorithm in a embedded processor to read as a state of charge meter and give a rough idea as to what one has left in the "tank". Likewise temperature gauge shows either/or controller/motor temp.... 

I have the speedo working with the PCM I just wanted to get rid of it all together - and think I have now - but I work a lot and my EV time is not so easy to secure.....

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

My dialup crashed so I am trying to get out this tidbit on Anderson connectors for all the off subject lurkers out there - I don't know if anyone has shown this but here goes!

1. Note the flat spring locking tabs in the start picture.

2. Now note the little tab on the metal crimp connector and that it is 
"tab down".

3. Push in till first "click" - the all the way till second click.

Note: I have not used a wire for ease of showing.

Note: tab is all the way to the front!

4 To extract metal contacts (tabs) use a small screwdriver and push down hard on the spring tab (go to one side of connector) and pull out at same time!

Let me know if this was helpful to those not yet fooling with connectors....

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

If you click on the last picture you will see it is animated.. was not sure how animated gifs display!!!

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

idoco said:


> Good luck.
> Idoco
> 
> P.S. I see you are using the Hayne's manual. I would highly recommend the OEM manuals. Way more info, especially on wiring.



Never did answer you on that I personally DON't use the useless Hayne's manul I think Sega said that --- you are right on the OEM - I have a few friends with alldata etc 

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Hmmmmmm I probably should start a build thread But I have 354 pics and I would hog all the site with Trivia! But a few pictures of compactness I will post!

Dave


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Someone asked me to bring this forward and include my horn build??? I thought it was on here but I will have to add it from work Monday .. 

oops found it on this laptop!! SO here it is!!! next.......


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I tried to get a new horn for the Saturn - 100 bucks! ( They have a built in relay ).. SO I thought I would look for one at the junk yard -- lol - they were all rusted - SO I bought a cheap 12 volt horn from Autozone and added a relay.. I redid the harness, filled it with hot glue, shrink tubed the thing, cleaned the bracket and put it back on! Works great - till I put the electronic horn on...


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## zipp (Nov 5, 2009)

hi guys, i need serously help about electronic spidometer ant tachometer, i making my ending project of scool... so who can help me?? i need schemes and programs to do electrical spidometer, i thinx to do it wits lcd... so i`m waiting for help from you guys


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## gilhudimp (Nov 5, 2009)

Ive been told by my certifier that the battery box extractor fan needs to run on 3 minutes after charging is finished. However I cant figure out how to wire the turbo timer that I bought so it does this. Ive attached the red lead to positive feed, black and brown(handbrake switch) to earth, blue to the fan positive The fan is earthed. Yellow to on-off switch. When I switch off yellow the timer counts down but nothing seems to happen. How does the positive current get through to keep running the fan?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

zipp said:


> hi guys, i need serously help about electronic spidometer ant tachometer, i making my ending project of scool... so who can help me?? i need schemes and programs to do electrical spidometer, i thinx to do it wits lcd... so i`m waiting for help from you guys


Try http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino
as a start ... I know it says for fuel car but it reads VSS for speed and can be used to show tach....


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gilhudimp said:


> Ive been told by my certifier that the battery box extractor fan needs to run on 3 minutes after charging is finished. However I cant figure out how to wire the turbo timer that I bought so it does this. Ive attached the red lead to positive feed, black and brown(handbrake switch) to earth, blue to the fan positive The fan is earthed. Yellow to on-off switch. When I switch off yellow the timer counts down but nothing seems to happen. How does the positive current get through to keep running the fan?


Name, brand, picture, wire diagram... If the last two questions are not from a Spam bot I will try and help !


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

This is what I did on the Saturn ADC motor - cost of pickup is around 20 bucks - very immune to noise - might need a pullup on some inputs - gear can be handmade (without mill machine ) -- In the Saturn 60 degree equal 6 lobes for the 6X to direct feed to the Tach (AROUND the PCM)... I'm sure you have seen me post it before BUT on another Saturn... 

P.S. It"s a Cherry speed sensor buy at Allied Electronics or for a bit more Digi-Key... Brown to key 12 volt - Blue to ground - Black wire output to white wire (cut off after PCM) to dash tach -- there is an internal pullup of about 10k on the tach BUT I found putting in another 10k (makes 5k lol) clips any noise - but noise is not much of a problem....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sorry for even asking this, but does that have to be a magnetic metal, or can it be non magnetic. I know some magnetic fields can affect materials like brass and aluminum.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> Sorry for even asking this, but does that have to be a magnetic metal, or can it be non magnetic. I know some magnetic fields can affect materials like brass and aluminum.


Magnetic, David - I have not really tried to set up an aluminum one to see if it would trigger eddies ... The reason for painting (powder coating ) it was the condensation I am noticing in this crazy warmer weather... we usually have tons of snow by now!! My garage - in - a - box seems to trap moisture ...


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## sabercatpuck (Nov 23, 2009)

While I am not planning on getting rid of my gas engine at the moment (the inefficencies translate to a nice and toasty cab in the winter time  ) I have started a project of figuring out what makes the Saturn ECM work. I am fairly sure that somewhere around the web I have seen things like formula for converting the VSS signal into speed, but I dont remember where at the moment. 
One thing I can add though is for schematics if you go to Autozone you can sign up for their free diagnostic service and one of the options afterward is for wireing diagrams. They are not the best, but they are free.
If you want I can try to keep you up to date with my project to figure out the Saturn ECM (and other modules)


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

sabercatpuck said:


> While I am not planning on getting rid of my gas engine at the moment (the inefficencies translate to a nice and toasty cab in the winter time  ) I have started a project of figuring out what makes the Saturn ECM work. I am fairly sure that somewhere around the web I have seen things like formula for converting the VSS signal into speed, but I dont remember where at the moment.
> One thing I can add though is for schematics if you go to Autozone you can sign up for their free diagnostic service and one of the options afterward is for wireing diagrams. They are not the best, but they are free.
> If you want I can try to keep you up to date with my project to figure out the Saturn ECM (and other modules)


I have kinda thrown it out  - going to use (err AM using) my own software on embedded processor..( will post more of that later) Have seen the Autozone wire diagrams - don't blow up too well but it is a start... If you waded thru my thread here you will see the only reason to keep the PCM is for the speedometer .. UNLESS you have more things tied to it - my 99 SL2 has no ABS and air bags are NOT hooked to PCM - everything can be bypassed and fed to the idiot lights on the dash - which, by the way will all be replaced with led equivilents ...

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino

has specs WRONG for my Saturn - so what year are you talking about?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

This is the (almost) finished box - I know the military connector is a bit over kill - but I wanted a good connection to the processor board have one to all the car wires so that I can disconnect and unplug easy to take the whole panel out of the Saturn.. Since it will go into a "show mode" with the hood up and audio walks you thru each part - they are highlighted at the same time with leds of various types.. SHOW and TELL for the people who really want to know .. err yes my processor talks to them....
Pardon the blur on the led lit image - my camera has a hardtime with low light!... 

Yes the cover is Plexiglas ---


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

That is a great looking tach setup, Dave. Using that sensor on my Gizmo eliminated the interference I was getting from water and regen. It is also more sensitive. My speedometer will actually read 1mph. Before it would jump to 2mph.

http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com/2009/04/finally-on-road.html

David


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

GizmoEV said:


> That is a great looking tach setup, Dave. Using that sensor on my Gizmo eliminated the interference I was getting from water and regen. It is also more sensitive. My speedometer will actually read 1mph. Before it would jump to 2mph.
> 
> http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com/2009/04/finally-on-road.html
> 
> David


I see you have your hands full with that Gizmo .. Snow and ice started here so it will be electronic work on new controls here.. I will keep checking your blog. And you can drop in here anytime lol ..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Still would like to find a better pot than pb6 - things have changed over the years and prices of inline actuator pots cost 300 bucks.. hmmm maybe a string pot with spring return on a decent pot...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Little better spring and a little cleanup of the throttle cable connector.. 

Yep lots O' plastic  

Winter here is good for reworks.. Big snow on the way and it is single digits out!  Anybody driving in salt, snow, cold and ice (no pun) should just not do it (cept in a car they have sealed EVERYWHERE - salt will eat ALL your hard work alive ) and if you have not got a heated garage - well imagine that !


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes - To the private email I got !

The military connector towards the pot will take all the dash wires (Ign, idiot lights, VSS, brake, backup, and so on) - The other one is from the control box (relays, leds, contactors .... ) the Analog gauges have their own connector on the upper side.. everything unplugs - from 12 volt, from pack, motor, and I can haul it inside to work on.... The embedded processor goes underneath the connectors... everything is sorta see-thru  - and hinged also. Small footprint..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

The circuit board has grown by leaps and bounds - with inputs from key,starter,clutch, brake and park brake,temp,tach pickup with over rev and shift speed, voltage detects for DC/DC, reverse sense and speed control -- outputs to every idiot light and processor triggers for verbal.. leds on board and six relays things are getting closer to finish... Opto isolators to audio feedback - Long winter nights are what makes one do this!!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_solar_renewable_energy_p2.html

new battery from US check it out


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

It is growing by leaps and bounds... My circuit board for the Saturn.. 

It is the main (NO processor - logic board 7" x 7")- I have all the voice triggers and warnings.. circuits for key, start-up, clutch brake, latch and unlatch for secondary contactors and throttle, pre-charge, tach, backup and speed reduction, shift light (and tach circuit), over-rev shutdown, temperature, DC/DC shutdowns on both primary and secondary (low voltage DC), idiot light for DC/DC as in a gen light if not working (audio voice for that) alarm AND a button to push for an audio "tour" of components with LED strips to light them up ! And if that is not enough - Errrr now the mechanical better work on the road!! It has more to add -----


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi Dave - looks like a lot of work and is most impressive!

Do you have an table/comparison of functionality that was in the original PCM that you now have to replace by your board?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

The interesting part - at least in my Saturn, all the PCM is necessary for is the speedometer.. that also can be bypassed But more work. None of the gauges (temp and gas) need the PCM - and any idiot lights can be cut and spliced and used without the PCM , I mean, of what use is the oil light except for some EV indicator. The air bags are on their own circuit and so on. 

When you get in the Saturn and sit to start it - you are reminded to fasten seat belts - by a soft voice under the dash , you turn the key on and the voice says "key on" and the primary contactor is engaged along with the primary of the DC/DC - you push in the clutch and hit the start key position - the sound of a "Hemi" engine starting comes from under the hood (my idea of a joke  ). a relay latches and puts power to the foot relay thru clutch and brake - and engages the DC/DC output ( if left hooked to battery it drains it over time as it sits - there is a back drain on Iota). When foot is OFF the clutch or brake (or parking brake) the relay for foot pedal (switch such as on the PB6 ) is allowed to latch second contactor to engage pack positive ( precharge started with the first contactor) and the relay to the controller - IF at any time you push in the clutch or hit the brakes it will unlatch the contactor and - this was so you could not race the motor with no load.. I know some will argue with that point but I see it unnecessary to use the throttle with the clutch in in DC system once the clutch is out of course, you have power to the throttle.. in the event you go over 6000 (or whatever set) it will shut down the motor ( just briefly with a verbal warning) to prevent runaway... there is also a settable circuit for the old shift light (bypassed from the PCM and direct to my board...) If the clutch switch interferes with any thing I can change it but .. There are LEDS on the board to sense (troubleshoot) most parts of the system... Various "idiot" lights on the dash will light under over temperature, under voltage (there is a low battery, settable, on the board for 12 volt charge system) well you get the idea - lots of audio feedback and a "demo" audio mode that explains the car and lights up various components when you push a button.  Forgot to mention the speed reduction and warning (voice) when in reverse...

All done with digital logic and no embedded processor - The next board is with the processor, LCD touch screen and more bells and whistles ( might save that for the AC drive - been watching those threads - don't have to worry as much about run away with them) .....


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

WOW WOW WOW

Mommy Mommy can I have one

You wern't kidding when you say those long cold days give you incentive to do things.

Jim


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thought maybe some would be interested in a simple (and inexpensive) little fan turn off delay for those fans one may want to keep running for a few minutes AFTER the key is off... I added it to my board..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thought I would throw up the relay start/safety portion of the board... In case someone wants to just use a few relays..  

Key-on sends power to clutch switch - clutch MUST be in to "start" (latch) next relay (with starter switch as in ICE) - if clutch or brake (or parking brake) is used then no power will go to throttle latch.. simply put -- the pot box switch DOES NOTHING unless ones foot is off brake or clutch... NC on pot switch can be used to "start" (means foot off gas).... lots of variations can be used... poor man way to insure no throttle on clutch, brake ... the SATURN HAS NO NEUTRAL SWITCH - so I will make one to add in that safety feature...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well boards look clean... NO solder mask - No silkscreen - Just a proto-type 
Solder by hand -  hundred resistors, by pass caps, sockets (yep, want to be sure...), sockets for relays, terminal strips... I will show a picture of the parts (I hope ) soldered on by Monday... waiting for my 1%'s lol...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Dan...

Pics of Hole in plex control board . etc for heat-sink..


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Pardon the blur on the led lit image - my camera has a hardtime with low light!...
> 
> Yes the cover is Plexiglas ---


I love the LEDs.... I was thinking about a strip in the gap between hood and bumper that would go back and forth like KIT car, remember that?

but anyway, yes, I have a 500-50 already in for other gauges, but it is on the POS side, and the CA won't work there. I don't wanna MOVE all that, so am going to add another shunt for the CA...... hence all this thread. :sigh:


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I love the LEDs.... I was thinking about a strip in the gap between hood and bumper that would go back and forth like KIT car, remember that?
> 
> but anyway, yes, I have a 500-50 already in for other gauges, but it is on the POS side, and the CA won't work there. I don't wanna MOVE all that, so am going to add another shunt for the CA...... hence all this thread. :sigh:


Yep remember the KIT car lol - you know my car talks to me right?


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> Yep remember the KIT car lol - you know my car talks to me right?


Presumably you won't be using a "nag" voice from your wife/girlfriend? Just what we all need...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

hopefully a husky and sultry 'plug me in you bad boy....' ?!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> hopefully a husky and sultry 'plug me in you bad boy....' ?!


LOL - not exactly - go back a few posts to :

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162538&postcount=52


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Little more progress on the prototype board... gotta add relay sockets and driver Transistors -- had to check each resistor, cap, led etc... Don't want to rework the board ! LOL it is tight... and will know soon if I made a mistake in hand laying it out... aw the days when we use to use drafting tape!...


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Little more progress on the prototype board... gotta add relay sockets and driver Transistors -- had to check each resistor, cap, led etc... Don't want to rework the board ! LOL it is tight... and will know soon if I made a mistake in hand laying it out... aw the days when we use to use drafting tape!...


I remember the old days when I had to lay the drafting tape and the direct transfer dough-nuts on the bare copper boards in order to make a prototype PCB.
Your board is looking great!!


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

So when you completely remove your PCM, what is that doing to your ODB2 system? Will you state inspector care?

I found out last month during my inspection that in MA you can't remove the ODB1/2 system from a vehicle that had it from the factory. In an another world I would take the time to replace my PCM, but at this point I don't have the time to mess with it, and I don't know how much ODB2 in my car is connected to the PCM.

The first thing the inspector asked me was if the ODB2 was intact, or else he would not be able to inspect me because removing the ODB2 prevents inspection on cars, and it can lead to deactivation of the airbags in some cars.

I do have to say, that is one sweet looking board!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> So when you completely remove your PCM, what is that doing to your ODB2 system? Will you state inspector care?
> 
> I found out last month during my inspection that in MA you can't remove the ODB1/2 system from a vehicle that had it from the factory. In an another world I would take the time to replace my PCM, but at this point I don't have the time to mess with it, and I don't know how much ODB2 in my car is connected to the PCM.
> 
> ...


Well the ODB system is still there - as is the PCM - it is illogical for them to use it! I mean the error codes are for all the ICE missing parts...lol - are they going to say you have no O2 sensor - or your PCV valve is faulty - or .... well you get the idea... IF the airbag actually read through it - well so what... go ahead and read it... Air bags trigger independent of PCM.. I think some PCM's read the sensor (hence the need)... 

The TRICK is to bypass it to all the Idiot lights and non essential things - the nice thing about my Saturn is it has it's own modules for AIR bags - has NO ABS - No power windows and so on...
In WI we really only have inspections in some large cities.... It is mostly about emissions.. 

ALL my safety systems are working - all my lights,signals brakes,mirrors... I think the most trouble has come from people hacking into the floor for batteries - part of the frame - frame mods scare them.... all my stock gauges work BUT I need to pull the dash and replace ALL lights with LEDS!

I have filtered my tach signal and have an over-rev sensor circuit that shuts down - and annoys one with a voice - it also goes to the stock tach... well that's enough LOL ... Got my driver transistors today so will get them on the board.. 
Keep me posted on your inspection ...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I had a second thought - why not use a little PIC or AVR to send signals out to the ODB2 reader - EVIL THOUGHT -  It could say "Why in the @#$% are you looking here?"


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> I had a second thought - why not use a little PIC or AVR to send signals out to the ODB2 reader - EVIL THOUGHT -  It could say "Why in the @#$% are you looking here?"


LMAO!!! that would be priceless!!


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> I had a second thought - why not use a little PIC or AVR to send signals out to the ODB2 reader - EVIL THOUGHT -  It could say "Why in the @#$% are you looking here?"


Just buy a OBD simulator chip or whole board with it:
http://www.ozenelektronik.com/?s=products2&group=eobd-obdii-ecu-simulators
http://www.ozenelektronik.com/?s=products1&group=eobd-obdii-scanner-and-simulator-chips


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

zwmaster said:


> Just buy a OBD simulator chip or whole board with it:
> http://www.ozenelektronik.com/?s=products2&group=eobd-obdii-ecu-simulators
> http://www.ozenelektronik.com/?s=products1&group=eobd-obdii-scanner-and-simulator-chips


Yep could... But that EVIL part of me wants to "Stick-it" all the time.....


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Quick update found out (and I vaguely remember this) that the 2n2222 driver transistors I have usually worked with have emitter-base-collector - the new ones are p2n2222a's are collector-base-emitter - ! Good thing I tested them all on a breadboard circuit!! 

LOL at first I thought I had bad transistors! 

Well nice that all I had to do was turn the flat side the other way ..

Tested a lot of the circuit - SO FAR SO good... waiting for my new relays without the tabs to come. Fan delay (after keys off) works.. latches all work. Well, all you obsessive people know how this works - long hours - lots of parts and brainstorming - and goofy ideas and then we hope they all work..........


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well here it is ! I have tested everything and it seems I did not make any major blunders... I draw things up and then do my layout... I don't' do a schematic(except in a yellow legal pad ) or let programs do things for me - so, of course, I have reason to ponder mistakes from my senile old brain - as I grow older it is harder to keep all those things aligned ...

I used relays as a positive way to engage - could have been solid state - BUT sometimes a clunk is what I need to hear (easy to plug in and replace).. The voltage monitor for the 12 volt battery works well ( as does it's audio counterpart " LOW BATTERY" voice ). All the outputs to Dash lights seem to function as does their audio outputs and now I have to BE SURE to tear out the dash and replace ALL the idiot lights with LED'S...

Interesting side note for Saturn owners (at least my version) the Starter relay is up under the dash, ( follow the clutch switch wires to the harness)
and BLACK TAPED to the wire harness.. It took forever to find as online sources said there is none -!! WRONG --- and I need to replace it with my own (anchored to the wall - not taped!) as I need an isolated contact for MY start feature with clutch.. I will be spending more time under the dash ...

My rpm sensor comes in and is noise buffered and I can set over rev and shift light to certain RPM's (voice also)-then goes to original tach... Temp sensor warning (dash and audio) - working.... Automatic "tour" of under-hood (voice and LED'S on each item - cycle) WORKING -- Reverse (speed slowdown and voice warning) working

Fan drivers (stay on after key OFF - for several minutes) working.. as is the UNUSED fan famous blue wire that senses fan is turning!
see:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131004&postcount=24


Well now we will see.... Way too much over-kill!

I have a second board (Atmel run) to get rid of everything else and run heard over any BMS or charger , and anything I want to program - BUT spring is coming fast - I need to get going !!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Took out my Iota.. DC/DC needs a few more mods than the CL-30's on the Input. The CL-30's stop extreme inrush and I set them on the input lines so I can also plug it into AC - ( have to use a switch to bypass output I have on a relay one of the problems with them being used as DC/DC is if they are left connected to the 12 volt battery and pack is off they can slowly bleed your battery.. So I have a relay that engages the 13 volt side on on start (off with key - pack is on contactors so it also disconnects) My fuse looks ok but needs so beefing up as Etischer found on his in this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/possible-problem-iota-dc-dc-converter-42424.html

Gotta beef up the inductors anchoring --- the power resistor gets semi hot but I have an extra fan to run through the Iota so I wont fool with it now...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well things are fitting - kinda tight.. but I am used to stuffing lots of robots


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I thought I had posted my Saturn motor mounts but - I must have stuck them in another forum LOL.

So-- here it is...


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

You posted some of those shots on my thread back when I was still pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to mount my motor. Maybe thats why you thought they were already up. Looking at your setup I'm toying with maybe adding some color to the under hood area of my car too.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks David - thought I was insane ...

Yep Color....


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

You have a lot of great Saturn info in this thread. 

I love the homebuilt PCM. You are going to have one heck of a show car.


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> This is what I did on the Saturn ADC motor - cost of pickup is around 20 bucks - very immune to noise - might need a pullup on some inputs - gear can be handmade (without mill machine ) -- In the Saturn 60 degree equal 6 lobes for the 6X to direct feed to the Tach (AROUND the PCM)... I'm sure you have seen me post it before BUT on another Saturn...
> 
> P.S. It"s a Cherry speed sensor buy at Allied Electronics or for a bit more Digi-Key... Brown to key 12 volt - Blue to ground - Black wire output to white wire (cut off after PCM) to dash tach -- there is an internal pullup of about 10k on the tach BUT I found putting in another 10k (makes 5k lol) clips any noise - but noise is not much of a problem....


Great stuff. Any idea how big of an air gap differential (hall tall do the gear teeth have to be?) is needed to trigger the sensor? I did not see it in the spec sheets.

I'm pulling together parts to make the tach sensor for my car and this sensor looks like it should do the trick. Thinking of adding a couple of bolts radially into my motor adapter to trigger the sensor or cutting some slots.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thaniel said:


> Great stuff. Any idea how big of an air gap differential (hall tall do the gear teeth have to be?) is needed to trigger the sensor? I did not see it in the spec sheets.
> 
> I'm pulling together parts to make the tach sensor for my car and this sensor looks like it should do the trick. Thinking of adding a couple of bolts radially into my motor adapter to trigger the sensor or cutting some slots.


I can slide three business cards in between but it will work out to almost 1/8th inch.. I made it close just in case there is noise... You can use bolt heads - they just have to be fairly equally spaced. I used 6 points for the Saturn... explained above (or back!) try it in a drill when done!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry I have not updated in awhile but just showing a school shop teacher my thousand "did-it-this-way" photos made me want to show a few more things! First about the 2" conduit to the trunk..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Bit more on the charge cord and "gas" tank hookup...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Had a bit of a problem threading a cap to fit and the door to close but came up with this:


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

So I got the door to shut on the "Gas" - that was good BUT you know taking pictures of the underside I see way too much RUST and white from salt!.... So clean, prime, undercoat - hmmmm.....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If it were up to me there wouldn't be any road salt used at all. I'd sooner take my chances driving on hard packed snow with the proper tires.

Oh well, mine doesn't look much better in that area.

Don't know if I have mentioned this yet, but have a look at the rocker panels at the rear doors under the plastic stap in steps. I hope yours looks better than mine did

The charge plug looks great though.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

david85 said:


> If it were up to me there wouldn't be any road salt used at all. I'd sooner take my chances driving on hard packed snow with the proper tires.
> 
> Oh well, mine doesn't look much better in that area.
> 
> ...


I DID! Yep, not exactly pretty there is it! But little work later.... Makes you want to not take your EV out in winter in our neck of the woods  

The charge plug is really rugged and fits the filler like it was made for it - (er it was ) The nice part is it is off the shelf hardware goodies!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Another tidbit for Saturn owners - when some "expert" tells you there is NO starter relay on your Saturn - look up to the left of the clutch and on the sidewall - wrapped in black tape - (LOL, money saver # 320  ) there it is! I needed to find it to replace with my own for clutch-in start and clutch-in sense for my Homemade PCM.......


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> .......


Nice find...........!!!


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Nice plug setup. 

What are you using to hold the plug in place?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

BWH said:


> Nice plug setup.
> 
> What are you using to hold the plug in place?


It fits snug on its own but I put two tiny brads with 1/2 the heads off into two small holes at the bottom of the threads.... you can just see them in the picture ... I threaded two stainless hex head 10/32s to grab the two indentations on the goose neck of the metal filler tube...


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Wow, those are tiny brads.

So you are using the old gas neck to hold it steady. Does it sway or move at all when you push the plug in?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

NO - it is anchored (goose neck) in several places and I use the plastic inner
liner... push in plug - click to lock to right - reverse to remove - fits like a glove !  

While I have you do you know of any sources for the #74 bulb sockets (they are Gray) on the instrument cluster - I am taking out all bulbs to replace with LEDS and need the grays to replace the red sockets...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I found this picture - that is of the same vintage as my 99 Saturn... So credit to whomever!

the gray sockets hold #74 bulbs... the red or "theater" lights socket has a bulb built in... you can remove the red socket/bulb and use a grey with super bright LEDS for back ground and then replace all the gray (socket with removable #74 ) with LED of wide dispersion and have neat lighting... 

Not all years can you do this that easy - but this 99 you can.. Dimmer still works and everything is very interesting.. I will be using almost all my warning lights from my own PCM so I need more!!!


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Nice, nothing like a good solid connection. 

I don't know of any personally. I tried a few quick searches but nothing popped up until I tried #74 Pigtail.

http://autolumination.com/connectors.htm

I think what you are looking for is about halfway down. Ctrl+F '#74 Twist Pigtail Sockets' should take you right to it.


Edit:

Ah, I just saw your last post. I guess we were writing at the same time. These aren't what you are looking for. I guess salvage yards are the best bet.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Spaghetti noodles of all colors - at least that is what it reminds me of.... Since I am wiring all the LEDS in the cluster to use with my own "PCM" it is difficult to track them back.. I need 18 wires... and have to pick up things like brakes, clutch, backup, and wire and re-wire... I have used a lot of "pink" (ignition on) wires and the old injector wires. Work has gotten in the way of updating this thread - my days run into nights... about 16 to 18 hours..

I moved my throttle - for now, ( like to use a homemade pulley type, all enclosed with internal spring and aircraft cable - but I guess the pb-6 will do for now....


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Holy Cow, it has been awhile since I added some things here! I will digress to some of the wiring... Did I ever use a lot of wiring... Since I also am running wires to the instrument cluster for Led lights I have used and added about 30 wires! Rewired the way the starter relay works -- and so on... Pics of the military connectors and the lining of the wheel wells with new splash guards.. and that is all I have time for...

I have been so busy with work and XC (running at high school) - No time and another winter is coming..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Thought I should have put the pictures of my own work on changing all the dash lights to LED... I worked out great. Cleaned up all the contacts with an eraser and a contact cleaner pen - can see why bulbs go out when they are still OK.. The camera does not do the colors actual justice...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Just bumpin up a thread that is a goldmine to a Saturn owner! 

Thanks for all the work you've done, and especially for posting it all online to help others.

david.


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