# Natural Fiber Glass-like alternative for fabrication



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I can't add any info but I'm interested in what you find. A while back I was talking to a Cornell fiber science professor who was working with different fibers, don't remember exactly what now, but it was interesting. Didn't Ford way back when build a car out of soybean extract?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hemp fibers might be good too.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2010)

Hemp fiber should be our mainstay. Its far more durable than cotton and is just as or softer when processed properly. Excellent for many textile products. It used to be but I guess someone decided that cotton was better. 

Pete


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2010)

William Randolph Hurst had a lot to do with the banning of hemp. Seems it was in direct competition with all the forest land he owned and wanted to use for pulp to make paper.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Here's an overview of Natural Fiber Composites for Aerospace, Automotive, etc.:

http://www.wiley-vch.de/books/biopoly/pdf_v10/vol10_16.pdf

The problem, apparently, is the same as it was 50 years ago when Trabants were made of pressed Duroplast: these materials take heat and pressure to cure, which means molds, machinery and an operation well beyond even production FRP manufacturing.

Its almost certainly out-of-range for the home builder. Of course, the yucca/resin technique could be something altogether new...

TomA


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Have you considered bamboo? I found several references on the web for bicycles, bridges and textiles made from bamboo.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Yes hemp fiber could be really good. I was reading a little bit about bowstring hemp, which has high elasticity apparently. 

Bamboo fiber could be a great an alternative too. 

Haven't looked at TomA's link yet, but hope that is not correct, because we need some more natural construction alternatives.

I believe that I first heard about the yucca/resin combo on a Green TV show (Planet Green?) that was highlighting a guy building bamboo frame bikes. He was using the yucca/resin compounds to solidify the joints. He was able to sand it down once dried to get that smooth sheen that fiber glass can get. It was impressive, and hand made as far as I could tell.

I'll have to look into that Cornell prof. I have heard of cars made from completely compostable material (in Canada?, possible the same show on TV), soy & corn type plastics I believe. 

I'll see what else I can find.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

meanderingthemaze said:


> I'll have to look into that Cornell prof.


Here he is, definitely working on what we have been discussing:
http://www.human.cornell.edu/che/bio.cfm?netid=ann2



> Current versions of green composites developed in my research group are not only suitable for use in packaging, housing or transportation panels, furniture, board sports and secondary structural applications, but the high strength Advanced Green Composites made using liquid crystalline cellulose fibers and soy based resins have toughness comparable to aramid fiber based composites. These advanced green composites may be used as primary structural elements or for ballistic applications. We have also developed modified starch based composites that have excellent properties.


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Motive unveils the Kestrel, Canada's first bio-composite electric vehicle design...
http://www.motiveind.com/news-motiveunveilskestrel-aug2010.html

kul


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

Well this is how I see it. It does not matter if the fibers are bio or not. The fibers must be bound with some sort of epoxy which to my knowledge is not bio. If they have a bio epoxy and bio fibers then it will be green but putting bio fibers into non bio epoxy it makes the bio fibers kind of a moot point. So it matters not what fibers you use until we have a good bio epoxy that is strong and light weight and has a good life before it begins to degrade. 

Pete


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, the article doesn't mention the binder used. So, you may be right that it is only the fibers that are "green." 

But you can't say it isn't a step in the right direction. As more R&D goes into this area, perhaps a solution for the epoxy will surface. 

I try to remain optimistic.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2010)

Yeah, I like to be optimistic too but some things just don't fit. Some day maybe we will have a good alternative to current types of epoxy. Yes, any step forward is good. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Natural epoxy and fiber composites:
http://www.naturfaserverbundwerksto...hnologies/natural-fibers-composites-epoxy.php
Extensive technical paper on bio based resins and natural fibers, PDF:
http://www.chemistry.mtu.edu/pages/...aheiden/WebProject-2006/Bio Project/Bio-1.pdf


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

nice find JRP3


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Natural epoxy and fiber composites:
> http://www.naturfaserverbundwerksto...hnologies/natural-fibers-composites-epoxy.php
> Extensive technical paper on bio based resins and natural fibers, PDF:
> http://www.chemistry.mtu.edu/pages/...aheiden/WebProject-2006/Bio Project/Bio-1.pdf



Sure, but epoxy that's any good isn't biodegradable by requirement. (Want a new car body every couple years?)

If you could find a thermoplastic with specifications close to thermosets, then you can easily recycle by remelting the plastic then removing the fibers. Until then...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Really? Because I'm pretty sure there are many things made of biodegradable fibers and resin that last a long time, sometimes hundreds of years. They call them "houses" and "boats", and they are made of a natural resin and fiber matrix, called "wood".


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Hemp fibers might be good too.


There was just an article (somewhere I can't remember) that I read today about a mill in canada processing hemp fibers and laying up custom auto bodies.... cheaper than carbon fiber, almost as light, not a strong, but 'green'.

hemp still cannot be grown in the US, but could be used in secondary manufacturing processes.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> hemp still cannot be grown in the US...


So ridiculous, isn't it? Anyone can buy all the weed they want from a local dealer yet we still pretend hemp is going to lead to increased drug use, when hemp has little to no THC. Blame the "war on drugs" and cotton lobbyists for that brilliant reasoning. Legalize pot and tax it and start growing hemp. Hopefully we are headed in that direction.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Since the Berlin wall went down we have seen quite a lot of East German Trabant cars in Western Europe, including Britain. It has a twin cylinder 2 stroke motor and a body which I beleive is made from cotton! Obviously it is impregnated with resin just like glass fibre would be. Get the sheets off the bed and get moulding! I have no idea whether it was laminated with woven material or something more like cotton wool. (I think Americans have a different name for cotton wool?) This would save hemp for smoking later whilst reflecting proudly on your work.

Andrew.

The chassis was a steel monocoque paneled on the external surfaces with Duroplast. This is a plastic composed of resin with wool or cotton reinforcment!


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

> This would save hemp for smoking later whilst reflecting proudly on your work.


Not much reflecting will be going on but you don't need to save the hemp. Do both with hemp. Strip it, smoke it and make fiber from the stocks unless you smoke the stems 

Well, true hemp you would not want to smoke anyway. Headache city if you do. You know, you can still find it growing wild along the highways down south. Left overs from when we did grow hemp and make textiles from the stalks. Damn durable ones and soft. Better than cotton.


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## rebenergy (Apr 18, 2008)

In South Dakota and Nebraska (US) it grows everywhere. If you don't keep it cut down the stocks will grow to 8 feet tall and hard to cut like trees. 
I read a book written from the 1930s describing different resins made from natural waste products. Cason plastic made from waste skim milk was used to make buttons for clothing. Henry Ford did a lot of research using natural resources.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Try Green.autoblog.com/tag/trabant+EV/

or just google Trabant EV and you will find that the Trabant is not only made of cotton, it could be the EV you are looking for!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm still wondering about 'doping' cloth or canvas but will need to check the environmental aspects of the various types of dope.


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Really? Because I'm pretty sure there are many things made of biodegradable fibers and resin that last a long time, sometimes hundreds of years. They call them "houses" and "boats", and they are made of a natural resin and fiber matrix, called "wood".


I know you threw a smiley on there, but:
1. Wood on houses is typically protected from the elements and is not subjected to vibration.
2. Wooden boats are notoriously expensive to maintain and most I know of are coated with thermoset epoxies. I know the American Indian used to carve boats out of birch trees but I don't think those lasted long. I also believe the large sail boats pre-steam were coated with something like creosote to keep them from rotting. Talk about non-biodegradable...


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

Bamboo Clothing is not straight bamboo but a natural Rayon made from Bamboo. soft and strong. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually wood can be and has been protected with natural resin and oil coatings such as linseed oil for centuries. Most wooden boats last longer than your average automobile, which has an average 10 year lifespan, and boats sit in water for long periods of time. Just because something is biodegradable doesn't mean it has to fall apart in a few months if it gets wet.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

coryrc said:


> I also believe the large sail boats pre-steam were coated with something like creosote to keep them from rotting. Talk about non-biodegradable...


Depends on the type of creosote:


> Wood creosote is a colourless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Other than looks and taste, the chemical makeup is totally different to coal tar creosote. It is made of plant phenolics rather than petrochemicals: guaiacol, creosol, o-cresol, and 4-ethylguaiacol.
> Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

The Declaration Of Independence was written on hemp paper and shortly after it was made into law that every citizen farmer must grow hemp!
http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/eco-elise-concept-lean-speedy-and-green
Regards,
John


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Actually wood can be and has been protected with natural resin and oil coatings such as linseed oil for centuries. Most wooden boats last longer than your average automobile, which has an average 10 year lifespan, and boats sit in water for long periods of time. Just because something is biodegradable doesn't mean it has to fall apart in a few months if it gets wet.


Just because something is natural does not make it biodegradable in a reasonable timespan. As a worst case example, how long does amber take to decompose?

Even thermosets will eventually biodegrade, but not fast enough for mass production. I think a better approach is reuse or recycling mechanically rather than biologically, just like steel cars are essentially fully recycled.

I do understand you can keep wooden boats going with constant maintenance, but your assertion "Most wooden boats last longer than your average automobile" is uncited and compares unlike groups (the subset of wooden boat owners is very different than a random selection of Americans).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

coryrc said:


> Just because something is natural does not make it biodegradable in a reasonable timespan....
> 
> ......I do understand you can keep wooden boats going with constant maintenance, but your assertion "Most wooden boats last longer than your average automobile" is uncited and compares unlike groups (the subset of wooden boat owners is very different than a random selection of Americans).


You seem contradictory, first you're concerned it won't degrade fast enough, then you're concerned it won't last long enough. As for wooden boat maintenance, having worked on them for a good part of my life, a yearly coat of varnish is hardly constant maintenance. (You wouldn't need to worry about anti fouling paint and caulking for a vehicle, boats live in a much harsher environment than cars do.)
Of course I'm not suggesting we build cars from wood, just that it seems quite possible to do so with natural fibers and resins modified to provide a good working life yet avoid increasing landfill volume for 100's of years. Not to mention possibly lower production impacts and energy usage. If you can grow your fiber instead of manufacturing it, and the same with your resins, the over all life cycle impact of the product will likely be smaller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Electric Hemp Car: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/08/23/cannabis-hemp-electric-car-kestrel-motive.html


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## coryrc (Aug 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You seem contradictory, first you're concerned it won't degrade fast enough, then you're concerned it won't last long enough.


Exactly, you can have one or the other.



JRP3 said:


> just that it seems quite possible to do so with natural fibers and resins modified to provide a good working life yet avoid increasing landfill volume for 100's of years.


I have yet to see one of these articles mention a natural resin which biodegrades in a reasonable timeframe. Just like paper doesn't degrade very quickly in a land fill when surrounded by plastic, hemp fiber trapped in a conventional matrix won't degrade very quickly either.

TomA's link (~5th post of this thread) talked about biodegradable resins, but as I stated and the paper corroborates, they are far weaker.



JRP3 said:


> Not to mention possibly lower production impacts and energy usage. If you can grow your fiber instead of manufacturing it, and the same with your resins, the over all life cycle impact of the product will likely be smaller.


Glass fiber is sand, you don't even have to grow it .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

coryrc said:


> Exactly, you can have one or the other.


Actually you can probably tailor it to fall somewhere in the middle. Real world example: Sun Chips now come in a biodegradable bag. The bag holds the chips for as long as needed, but when empty and put into a working compost pile it breaks down.


> I have yet to see one of these articles mention a natural resin which biodegrades in a reasonable timeframe. Just like paper doesn't degrade very quickly in a land fill when surrounded by plastic, hemp fiber trapped in a conventional matrix won't degrade very quickly either.


Might not be a concern. It might be better to concentrate on material longevity. With a body that never rusts, and an EV drivetrain that lasts longer than an ICE, a car could have a potentially endless life cycle, saving energy and resources that would normally be needed to make a replacement vehicle, many times over. I've had a number of vehicles that while still running were rusted so badly they weren't worth fixing. So use hemp fibers, which take little energy to create, in an epoxy matrix, and create a body that could potentially outlast the driver.


> Glass fiber is sand, you don't even have to grow it .


Hemp is a usable fiber after harvesting with little energy input. Sand is a long way from glass fibers from an energy usage standpoint.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

> Hemp is a usable fiber after harvesting with little energy input. Sand is a long way from glass fibers from an energy usage standpoint.


More cool stuff from the power of the sun. Nature really does have some real solid stuff.


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## smsrfr (Aug 28, 2010)

With all the discussion of bio-based epoxy, I just had to chime in here. Entropy Resins makes a bio-based epoxy that uses feedstocks from the pulp and bio-fuels industries. We have various formulas from ambient cure wet layup to molded compression. For composites involving natural fibers, here's an example of our vacuum infusion resin being used in combination with flax and carbon fiber to make a lightweight and strong racing canoe hull. Our bio-contents depend on the formulation, so it ranges from 25% up to 75%. Bio-based epoxies are nothing new to the industry. But getting them to be high-performance enough to make composites is what sets our resins apart from the traditional uses of bio-epoxies. Hope this helps.

Rey Banatao, PhD
Entropy Resins

www.entropyresins.com

Green Layup Racing Canoe Pics
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=208789&id=84588502047&fbid=431102877047&ref=mf


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks for stopping by, nice to have someone in the industry join the conversation. I'll have to look through the literature, but could you give a description as to how your resins compare to conventional epoxies, such as the West system? Performance and cost for example.


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## smsrfr (Aug 28, 2010)

Sorry, thought I replied to the thread earlier, but guess it didn't go through. 

Anyhow, to answer your question, our resins are on par with regular epoxies with regard to both performance and cost, i.e. the eco-value or carbon footprint savings are added value....I would agree with those who argue that it's important to evaluate eco-friendly or bio-based material on performance as much as eco-savings, otherwise a mechanically inferior material won't be of interest, won't get used, and therefore won't have a positive impact on the environment in the long run.

Here are some performance numbers for two of our ambient cure systems, which are on par with systems from other brands. I defer to our website for more details on working parameters, price, etc., but those are similar as well to other retail systems. www.entropyresins.com

*Super Sap 100/1000 Ambient Cure, 2:1 mix ratio*
Mix Viscosity
(1000 Hardener, cPs)	2000-3000
Gel Time @ 25°C 
(150g mixed, min)	22-25
Thin Film Set @ 25°C (hr)	~ 1 hrs
Tack Free Time @ 25 ºC (hr)	~ 3 hrs
Recommended Cure Time @ 25°C (days)	7
TYPICAL PERFORMANCE	
Tg (°C)	120
Tensile Strength 9,000 psi
Tensile Modulus 3.6x105 psi
Elongation at Break (%) 7
Flexural Strength 12,000 psi
Flexural Modulus2 3.0x105 psi

*Surf Sap 102/1200 Ambient Cure, 2:1 mix ratio*
Mix Ratio (by volume)	2:1
Mix Ratio (by weight)	100:47
Mix Viscosity (1000 Hardener, cPs)	1500-2000
Gel Time @ 25°C (150g mixed, min)	20
Thin Film Set @ 25°C (hr)	~ 1.5 hrs
Tack Free Time @ 25 ºC (hr)	~ 2.5 hrs
Recommended Cure Time @ 25°C (days)	7
TYPICAL PERFORMANCE	
Tg (°C)	120
Tensile Strength (MPa)	9,410 psi
Tensile Modulus (GPa)	5.0x105 psi
Elongation at Break (%) 3.2
Flexural Strength (MPa) 13,534 psi
Flexural Modulus2 (GPa) 4.4x105 psi

Through our resin business, I would also add that we've been starting to see major improvements in natural fibers used for composites, namely flax and hemp weaves that are woven for structural composite applications rather than clothing. I would refer you to these guys for more info on the natural fibers:

http://www.compositesevolution.com/

But the green canoe I posted a link to earlier was made with our resin + a flax fiber from them. So far the canoe has held up well....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What is the UV resistance of your products? Most epoxies that I'm aware of need to be coated to resist UV degradation.


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## smsrfr (Aug 28, 2010)

When you speak of degradation, I assume you are referring to "chalking", where some types of epoxy actually break down over time? Older / cheaper epoxy formulations tend to be known for this. Our resins don't have this problem and is more due to the nature of our formulation (higher quality ingredients), and the pine-based ingredients as well. We also use UV inhibitors to prevent the yellowing of our epoxies, which is usually the biggest problem with most epoxies in outdoor applications.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume your resins can be pigmented with normal epoxy pigments? 
Here's a general epoxy question you might be able to answer, how do you determine a mix ratio? I've seen them from 5:1 to 1:1. Obviously the closer ratios are easier to mix accurately but since cross linking must occur you don't want too little or too much of any component. How is the chemical formula altered to get different ratios? I was once told that additives are used to change ratio's but the farther away from the "real" epoxy formula the weaker it is. Obviously I'm no chemist so I don't know if that's true or not.


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## smsrfr (Aug 28, 2010)

Yes, same rules apply with regard to tinting. Works in our resins, just like other epoxy. Tint bases, unless they are epoxy based, will not bond chemically with the epoxy. So you technically are diluting the crosslinking going on in the epoxy matrix. However, tint usually goes a long way. So unless you are adding tint above the 7-10% of the total mixed weight, you are usually fine. Since fiber is really the dominant force in the composite, the strength of most epoxy resins, including ours, allow plenty of room for tinting, even opaques. For mechanical performance, I'd say it's actually more important to match the elongation and modulus of a resin with those of the intended fiber, rather than just looking at strength numbers alone of just the resin. Stiffer fibers, like carbon, need stiffer resins. More flexible fibers, like natural, need more flexible resins.

With regard to mix ratio, you are correct. Sometimes, the 2:1 or 1:1 mix ratios have a "fudge factor" designed into them. You can be off by a few percent and usually be okay. But since epoxies require a stoichiometric mix ratio, using a scale is the best way to go. Thorough mixing of epoxy / hardener is just as important, though, since hardening is not catalytic like it is in polyesters. Interesting thing about our 100/1000 system, is that we allow for a much larger fudge factor. You can be off by even 5%+ and still get pretty good mechanical strength.

Ratios are designed by matching the number of epoxide groups on the resin side to the numbers of amine groups on the hardener side. The "additives" or "fillers" you mention are usually things like Nonyl Phenol, which are usually fine in the few percent range and actually help with plasticity in the cured resin. But those don't crosslink in the cured resin. So, large percentages can make a weaker composite resin. Therefore the higher the solids content in a resin, usually the stronger it is due to more thorough crosslinking.

But just because a ratio is 1:1 or 2:1, doesn't necessarily mean a resin uses fillers or additives. More modern day epoxy resins, like ours, use other proprietary chemistries to get them closer to these mix ratios without requiring fillers. Your best bet is to read the published mechanical data for your resin and compare. You can also design simple 3 point benders to do your own tests.

Hope this helps....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Great data, thanks a lot for your time. Natural fibers and bio-resins are a good match for EV's, sometime I hope to do a lightweight hood and trunk for my Fiero and I'll definitely consider your products.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One more question if you don't mind. Do your resins end up with amine blush on the surface as happens with other epoxies?


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## smsrfr (Aug 28, 2010)

Blush usually depends on the formulation, for both ourselves and others... But our Surf 102/1200 system is our best blush free system, even at low temp and high humidity, which are the worst conditions for blushing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Veggie cars  http://www.wheels.ca/article/792817
http://www.motiveind.com/
http://www.compositesworld.com/news...ype-development-of-kestrel-vehicle-structures
http://green.blorge.com/2010/08/canadas-kestrel-ev-to-use-hemp-composite-body-parts/
http://www.gizmag.com/kestrel-ev-pictures-released/16380/


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## meanderingthemaze (Jan 25, 2010)

nice find. i had heard about Kestrel before. i hope they can sell it for less than 100K, hahaha. 

wonder if they are waiting for lithium prices to come down. 

i really want to find out how to make these bio-composites in the garage. make my own designs.

also, i like the idea of the paint layers applied with heat. hopefully they can do that with bio-resins and soy-based ink or something


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