# [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772 ability ...



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know that I would personally put a 6.6kW charger and J1772 ability
on the "Must" list to live with a conversion. For a work commuter with some
side trips, I'm doing fine with a 1.6kW to 2.2 kW charger and 110V and 220V
pigtails. When I'm charging up at work and home, I almost always have 8-9
hours to spare. There are a few times where it would be nice to
fast-charge, but I've only run into a few times a year, myself.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of brucedp5
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 5:12 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772 ability
...
> 
> I am putting together the EVS4Sale post right now. Interesting stuff.
> And it is interesting the changes that have happened in the for-sale
market
> now that Production EVs are here to stay.
> 
> There are plenty of Volt pih, and Leaf EVs, but only a few conversions
now.
> Still lots of nEVs with very few miles on them (did the original owner
pay-
> way-too-much for an nEV and now feels saddled with a vehicle that does not
> meet their driving needs because they did not do their EV-homework
first?).
> 
> There is a 108V converted Sta Wgn that only goes 60mph even with a new
> pack. Since 55mph is OK for highway use, I will list it, but really, you
can not
> use the hov lanes unless you can go 80 mph to keep from being either run
> over or run off the highway.
> 
> And there are nEVs that if you were willing to buy them and only go 25mph,
> they would still need doors for inclement weather, a 6.6kW charger, and
> J1772 coupler ability.
> 
> So as a brain teaser, how much would one have to spend to upgrade:
> 
> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2850425193.html
> -the 108V Sta Wgn to 120V (the max for the curtis controller), a 6.6kW
> charger, and the parts for being able to connect to a J1772 coupler?
> 
> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2861310924.html
> -to a 6.6kW charger, the parts for being able to connect to a J1772
coupler,
> and adding doors?
> 
> Anyone interested in commenting, as there are likely some first time
buyers
> that have already thought about buying an EV on the cheap.
> 
> 
> {brucedp.150m.com}
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-
> J1772-ability-tp4521466p4521466.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> > I don't know that I would personally put a 6.6kW charger and J1772 ability
> > on the "Must" list to live with a conversion. For a work commuter with some
> > side trips, I'm doing fine with a 1.6kW to 2.2 kW charger and 110V and 220V
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> >
> > I will admit I like the ability to draw as much or as little
> > as I want. That is why I would likely get a pfc-40 onboard
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It also depends quite a bit on what is available in the area. Unlike the
Bay Area, the hinterlands of Idaho don't have many options for charging.
Right now, the options are really home and some employers that make 110V-20A
service available outside a building or in one part of a parking lot. Even
if I had higher-end charging, there isn't any place to use it. In many
parts of the country, this is still "state of the art"; unfortunately.

Mike



> > Bruce wrote:
> > If I limited my EV driving to very short runs I could either go to work
> and
> > charge, then charge at the College, and charge when I got home (repeat),
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bruce,

I am guessing that you have already tried, but just in case
if your old posts/chronicles were on public websites then
there is a good chance that they were captured by the WayBackMachine
www.archive.org which allows you to select a date in the past
when a specified website was crawled by the robots.
It usually does not give any linked files (data/pictures) but
the text is captured except when expressly forbidden by
anti-robot commands or impossible due to dynamic content generation

So you may give it a try to recover old postings....

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:39 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772
ability ...

I hope you realize in your two last posts on this topic, your wording
could be construed as smug (well, his EV was an old lead-sled, not a
Leaf like ours, [so what does he know ...] ).

And now that I have mentioned that, I am sure as an EV-
Ambassador/driver, you never meant to leave anyone with that ... I'll
take from your posts, that overnight charging suits your driving needs,
and a reevaluation of that when pack capabilities x-fold increase.

Drivers need to be on their guard to keep from projecting smug.
For those that do not know what I mean, I reference to a Southpark
episode where Prius drivers let everyone know of their holier-than-thou
ride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!

...
Cor has already posted what I chronicled. Too bad those posts are no
longer archived (they're gone Jim).

For some that do not know who this old-fert (me) is or have done, having
press-credentials back in the 1990's allowed me to drive many more 100+
mile Electric drive-train vehicles than others likely ever will (...
careful, smug alert ...). 

I was given the keys to a Nissan Altra EV for a couple of days
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1036152_nissan-altra-a-look-back-at-
the-worlds-first-li-ion-powered-ev
http://www.motortrend.com/auto_news/112_9712_the_nissan_altra_ev/
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=nissan%20%22altra%22%20ev

Similarly, to a ...

Honda EV-Plus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=honda%20%22ev-plus%22

Toyota RAV4 EV (gen1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=toyota%20%22rav4-ev%22

And (OT to the evdl) hybrid and fcv prototypes before they went into
production, +more.

For a week I rented a GM EV1 gen2 that had a NiMH pack. That 100+ mile
range EV's capabilities (acceleration, efficiency, Level-2 charging rate
ability, +more) out performed a Leaf EV in so many ways, and that was
over a decade ago http://brucedp00.150m.com/carb0005/
(the technology was there, the Automaker will was not).

...
Where I am, EVs are in high demand to go to shows. As soon as I took
possession of my EV back 1992, I was on everybody's list, asking me to
come and attend their: health-faire, earthday, transportation-fair, ...
Organizations and companies around the state were having EVents that
wanted EVs.

That is still going on today. And if I have a desire to attend, I have
access to a 3kW-charging Leaf EV when I want.

Not too long ago, a new EVSE was being christened in Monterey, and the
organization that had made the effort to accomplish this, AMBAG, was
asking for EV drivers who could demonstrate charging off a J1772 EVSE to
come attend.

That is about a 100 mile trip there and 10 hours of charging with
today's 3kW-charging Leaf EV to get back home. Or a ~3 hour charge with
an EV with a 6.6kW Level-2 charging ability (the new/gen2 Leaf, Focus,
Coda, +more).

In an offline discussion with Willie, he let me know his business is
located just south of Austin, TX. I suppose an equivalent request would
be like a grand opening of an EVSE in Brady, TX asking Willie to drop
what he is doing an attend. 

If it were me, I would look forward to attending. Clearly, my needs to
be able to charge using all available power the public EVSE can provide
is of interest to me.

And at the time I was doing all those requests, my day job left me
little time to do them in, with a locked-in-stone requirement that I be
back online ready for work at the specified day/time (no wiggle-room
there. !When Bank of America, Pacific Bell, Intel, (+other huge
companies) place a call, you should be already on your way to getting
them back up!). 

To be able to get away, have some fun, and know I would get back to
continue with my work-obligations was my EV driving needs. Yet, most of
the time, I would charge my EV at home at Level-1. 

When people talk about my charging, please try to word it to include the
range of from fast down to slow.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 08:52:28PM -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> wrote:
> ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > I hope you realize in your two last posts on this topic, your
> > wording could be construed as smug (well, his EV was an old
> > lead-sled, not a Leaf like ours, [so what does he know ...] ).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 12:08:43PM -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some RAV4-EV drivers may be wanting to jump to the next generation 
EV technology, so RAV4-EV sellers might be dropping their prices 
to sell them faster.

One experience I think I should share, was at the Mt. View, CA Costco
before their store Mgr paid to have the perfectly good tal 2000 spi
and Avcon yanked and disposed of (Costco would not work with anyone 
allowing reuse of their old 6.6kW Level-2 EVSE - sad). Well, lets 
not waste anymore evdl bandwidth on how great and accommodating 
Costco were, and what their management is now.

The local RAV4-EV driver I met up with mentioned that he wanted to 
bag another spi because they were becoming scarce/hard to get. I 
tried to help, but all I found were lpi EVSE. I wonder if that is 
a factor to be concerned about.

>From what little I know, I do not believe anyone has successfully 
installed an off the shelf 6.6kW onboard Level-2 charger to replace
the inductive one GM forced on them. I did hear of some backdoor 
method of feeding power via the regen circuitry, but that was 
supposedly tricky and if not done right could cause damage. 

I hope someone on the RAV4-EV discussion list comes up with a 
straight forward solution to keep those EVs on the road.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> Rick Beebe wrote:
> ...
> > One thing I've noticed is that RAV-4 EVs seem to have plummeted. I've
> > long thought about buying one but they were routinely selling on eBay
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a designer and builder of electric scooters and motorcycles mostly with
120vAC charging systems, unless I'm missing something, it seems the J1772
system is completely useless to me. I mean, without a neutral terminal (as
far as I can tell) in the system, I can't safely access 120vAC. Am I right? 
Also, common battery heaters, fans, auxiliary battery chargers, and other
components(in the US) use 120v. To require dual voltages of these components
or a step down system is just not workable.

The size of the smaller EVs allows them easy access to the huge number of
120v outlets for regular and opportunistic charging. But, it would be great
to also use something like the J1772 system. Does anyone else see this as a
problem? 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert wrote:
> > As a designer and builder of electric scooters and motorcycles mostly with
> > 120vAC charging systems, unless I'm missing something, it seems the J1772
> > system is completely useless to me. I mean, without a neutral terminal (as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm upgrading my 1976 Citicar to work with J1772. Most of the time it has
enough range to go where I want to go, but it is easier on the batteries to
charge more often than less often (shallower depth of discharge). 

During the past year, most of the new charging stations they'd installed
around the Bay Area were dual NEMA 5-20 (120v) and J1772 level 2. However,
the trend has changed over the past few months - the charging stations going
in now are mostly J1772 only - no 120v outlet. The reason I'm installing
J1772 is to make it as compatible with charging infrastructure as possible,
and J1772 seems like it is here to stay.

The Citicar has a charger (ElCon 2500) that can use 120 or 240 vac. I
bought a J1772 inlet and J1772 signal generator (needed to work with the
J1772 pilot and prox signals that enable the charging station to turn on)
for the upgrade. The cost of the inlet and signal generator was about $145.


The weight and size of the inlet and signal generator is not significant for
an enclosed passenger vehicle. The inlet is about 2" in diameter and weighs
a few ounces. The signal generator is a small PC board that is about the
size and weight of a matchbook. However, if you are converting a 2-wheeler,
anything not originally built into the bicycle or scooter/motorcycle will
present an installation challenge.

I am in the process of installing the J1772 parts in the Citicar this
weekend. It worked well during a bench test - A J1772 charging station
cycled on and provided power to the charger using this setup.

Tom Keenan 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still have to
provide power to the battery heaters and other components that may be on
during charging. It will only be 100-200 watts- maybe a small step down
unit would work. Any ideas out there what I could use?


> As a designer and builder of electric scooters and motorcycles mostly with
> 120vAC charging systems, unless I'm missing something, it seems the J1772
> system is completely useless to me. I mean, without a neutral terminal
> (as
> far as I can tell) in the system, I can't safely access 120vAC. Am I
> right?
> Also, common battery heaters, fans, auxiliary battery chargers, and other
> components(in the US) use 120v. To require dual voltages of these
> components
> or a step down system is just not workable.
>
> The size of the smaller EVs allows them easy access to the huge number of
> 120v outlets for regular and opportunistic charging. But, it would be
> great
> to also use something like the J1772 system. Does anyone else see this as
> a
> problem? 

I notice my ebike has a "universal" charger; takes 120 or 240vac. So,
I could charge off of a J1772 station with an adapter such as:
http://www.tucsonev.com/index.html

Granted, both bulky and expensive. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert wrote:
> > Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still have to
> > provide power to the battery heaters and other components that may be on
> > during charging. It will only be 100-200 watts- maybe a small step down
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert wrote:
> 
> > Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still have to
> > provide power to the battery heaters and other components that may be on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Willie,

I think your currents are backwards. 12A on 120 vac and 6 or 7A on 240 vac
seems more likely. My Elcon PFC 2000+ draws 15-16A on 120vac and 10A on
240vac. It also switches automatically between the input voltages. I've
noticed the fan runs faster when charging off 240V.

I've been very impressed with the charger. It hasn't given me any problems
and it does a nice job of tapering back and turning off automatically with a
LiFePO4 pack, if it is well balanced. I still have the Mini-BMS to turn off
the charger if something goes wrong. The charger tapers off charging
current just as the first modules start to shunt. This gives a time period
of about 10-15 minutes for lower cells to catch up.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Willie McKemie
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 11:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772
ability ...
> 
>


> EV Convert wrote:
> > > Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still
> > > have to provide power to the battery heaters and other components that
> > > may be on during charging. It will only be 100-200 watts- maybe a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Harry,

I think Tom may have gotten his j1772 and signal generator from Modular EV
Power; 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item3cc4266067&item=260988887143&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=Z66JEmnJJfx8eNwYeqMOLWLOzf4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Looks like you might have to buy the inlet and AVC1 separately now.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> > Hi Willie,
> >
> > I think your currents are backwards. 12A on 120 vac and 6 or 7A on 240 vac
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still have to
> > provide power to the battery heaters and other components that may be on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The heaters(or other non-inductive or non-electronic loads) turn out to not
be that big of a problem. I can buy a wall wart size, 240VAC to 120VAC,
2000w(that's what it says!), voltage reducer for $20 to run the heaters. For
inductive loads and loads with electronics, the converters are generally
bigger and have a capacity of 50-85w. Price range: $20-50. These are travel
units for reducing overseas voltages. This is a quick check at Radio Shack
and in the electronics dept. at several stores.

The 85w is barely adequate for my non-heater loads. I'll keep looking. Does
anyone else know of better options?

All this because some "genius" decided to over-simplify the J1772 system, I
don't know- maybe there's a legitimate safety or electrical reason why the
neutral (and 120VAC capacity) was left out. 





Chris Tromley wrote
> 
>


> EV Convert <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Who supplies dual voltage chargers in the 1-2kw range? I'll still have
> >> to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert wrote:
> > The heaters(or other non-inductive or non-electronic loads) turn out to not
> > be that big of a problem. I can buy a wall wart size, 240VAC to 120VAC,
> > 2000w (that's what it says!) voltage reducer for $20 to run the heaters.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Apr 2012 at 16:58, EV Convert wrote:
> 
> > I can buy a wall wart size, 240VAC to 120VAC, 2000w(that's what it
> > says!), voltage reducer for $20 to run the heaters. For inductive loads
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> All this because some "genius" decided to over-simplify the J1772 system, I
> >> don't know - maybe there's a legitimate safety or electrical reason why the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Evan Tuer wrote
> 
> 
> "I'd be surprised (and somewhat irritated) if vehicles that are built
> in Japan for world markets were constrained by supporting a legacy USA
> specific power supply!"
> 
> Actually, it wouldn't have been a constraint but an inclusive feature. 
> Potentially, hundreds of millions of people with the split- phase system
> could have easily had another charging option for their small, low power
> EVs. The inclusion of of an optional neutral terminal for use in the
> split-phase countries wouldn't have been that big of a deal. My concern
> is that sites in the USA sponsoring the charging stations will be
> reluctant to supply 120VAC or, are forced into exclusive contracts with a
> vendor who refuses to supply it.
> 
> "Nowhere else uses split-phase, and by the sounds of it it only adds
> danger and complexity to hobbyist vehicles."
> 
> Actually in a single leg fault(the most common electrocution scenario),
> the split-phase system has half the voltage potential of your two wire
> system. This is why a similar system is being mandated for use in wet and
> outdoor locations in the UK (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power ). Complexity?
> Have you not read through the dead end ideas and contortions we're going
> through to accommodate the lack of a neutral in the J1772 system?! 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power ). Complexity?
> >> Have you not read through the dead end ideas and contortions we're going
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 4/16/2012 2:43 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
> >> I don't understand why you can't just use 240V equipment, or
> >> universal input.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> If you live in a country where 120vac is the norm, then 120vac equipment
> >> is cheap and easy to get. 240vac equipment is scarce and hard to come by.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"That's what's happening here anyway - the new charge posts I've seen
have the 7 pin Mennekes outlet, that offers either 7 or 22kW, but for
the "legacy" fleet, anything without a Mennekes plug (i.e. 99% of
existing vehicles at the present time) they provide a domestic 13A
230V socket as well."

Jezz, Evan, after all the hard time you give us about complaining about the
J1772 system, now you tell us the Mennekes systems is the standard in your
area (apparently chosen over the current J1772 system)! What's layout of
the power available from the plug(voltages- number of phase-AC or DC-etc.)?


--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-J1772-ability-tp4521466p4562420.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >> In the US, we already have millions of dual 120/240v outlets for
> >> large home appliances, RV parks, boat marinas, etc. So this is the de
> >> facto standard.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Yes. Except I think they can already do that within the existing
> > standards. Plugging in an electric car is no different than plugging in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 19 Apr 2012 at 18:58, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > This is not at all the situation for most flavours of North American 240V
> > AC connectors. A significant fraction of the driving public would likely
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> A significant fraction of the driving public would likely
> >> have difficulty safely plugging and unplugging a NEMA 14-50 (240V 50A)
> >> connector, for instance.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> The only way to get a dangerous 240v shock is to somehow touch BOTH hot 
> pins, and with DIFFERENT hands. 
<SNIP>
> If you touch both pins with
> one hand, you get a painful shock in that hand; but it won't be life 
> threatening.

I would call a shock even using a two fingers on a single hand on each
pins dangerous...although less likely to stop your heart as you
correctly pointed out.

The shock will probably throw you back (HARD), possibly into sharp
pointy objects and burn your hand.

Plus, if you pull a 240v outlet out while under full load you can get a
MUCH bigger arc than a 120v outlet, that arc can sometimes shock you.
Europeans know to always turn off space heaters / coffee pots before
unplugging them...many Americans don't bother because the 120v arc is
not as impressive.

Jay
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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been shocked 3 times by 230V AC during my teen years
as I liked to experiment and thought I knew what I was doing
(one time rewiring the socket of an extension cord without
taking the plug out of the outlet... ouch!) 
So I know that a single-hand touch of 230V phase+neutral is
painful but you can survive without lasting effect...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jay Summet
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 12:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772
ability ...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> The only way to get a dangerous 240v shock is to somehow touch BOTH 
> hot pins, and with DIFFERENT hands.
<SNIP>
> If you touch both pins with
> one hand, you get a painful shock in that hand; but it won't be life 
> threatening.

I would call a shock even using a two fingers on a single hand on each
pins dangerous...although less likely to stop your heart as you
correctly pointed out.

The shock will probably throw you back (HARD), possibly into sharp
pointy objects and burn your hand.

Plus, if you pull a 240v outlet out while under full load you can get a
MUCH bigger arc than a 120v outlet, that arc can sometimes shock you.
Europeans know to always turn off space heaters / coffee pots before
unplugging them...many Americans don't bother because the 120v arc is
not as impressive.

Jay
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton asked:
> Because of the magnitude of the load and the sheer number
> of connect/disconnect events that would take place daily
> are unmatched by any other present electrical devices in
> use by the public?

The car would not be plugged in more than once a day
typically, while other appliances may share a plug
and can be plugged/unplugged many times a day.
It will not hold for most men, but a hair dryer can
easily be plugged in and out every single day and
that in a wet bathroom, standing on bare feet (hence
the requirement for GFCI)
Other things that get plugged in/out a lot are cell
phone chargers, laptop/iPad/tablet chargers and
some lights where the switch is in an awkward location
so it is easier to pull the plug every day.
Then there are the kitchen machines and appliances
that may share the (few) outlets in the kitchen so
they may get plugged and unplugged with wet hands
frequently...

> How many 3-10kW cord-and-plug-connected devices are in
> use in a typical household? How many of these are
> plugged and unplugged at least once per day? 
> How many of these are plugged and unplugged at least
> once per day outdoors? 

It is quite irrelevant how much power the device draws
to determine whether it is safe to plug/unplug it.
Mostly the voltage that you are (dis)connecting
determines how dangerous it is to touch the pins.
In large parts of the world all outlets are capable
of delivering 3+kW since the typical European fusing
is minimum 16A 230V. but you can get killed by a few
Watts, so that is the reason to have GFCI and many
European houses are now installed with an all-house
GFCI tripping at 30mA

NOTE that the sleeved pins and recessed outlets have
been improvements from earlier (compatible) designs
to increase safety. The exact same can be done for the
ubiquitous NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 outlets and plugs so
no arcing or touching of live pins can harm a person.

In India the higher power pins are so large that it is
required to have a slider that closes the holes when
the plug is not present, otherwise a child would be
able to insert a finger into the outlet. The Ground
pin (longer than the others) operates the slider.

Most EV charging will be done in a garage, so that would
qualify as indoor - but looking at the average US home
having a dozen or so outdoor outlets all around the house
just in case you are walking around with an electric hedge
trimmer or mower, or want to plug in anything while sitting 
in the back- or front yard, there seems to be not much 
concern about plugging/unplugging in an outdoor environment...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wr

>
>> The point of using an EVSE "charge station", from the car
>> manufacturer's point of view means that these factors should always be
>> the same, with an acceptable level of safety so that non-experts can
>> use it at a low level of risk, and maximum chance of it "just working"
>
> Yes. Except I think they can already do that within the existing
> standards. Plugging in an electric car is no different than plugging in
> an electric drill, lawn mower, hair dryer, vacuum cleaner, or any other
> electrical device.

I disagree. It's outside for a start, outwith the "equipotential
zone" protected by the earth bonding in the house.

So the closest comparison there is the lawnmower. Take a look at any
lawnmower on sale today - if it's the same in your territory you will
find that they are all, without exception, double-insulated. Cars are
not.

[snip]

>> For example, with an EVSE you have measures to make sure the cable is
>> dead if the car end is not plugged in; ways of protecting the user if
>> the cable is damaged, a way of ensuring the connector can't be damaged
>> by unplugging on load; a way of protecting against overload of either
>> the user's cable or the supply; and more besides.
>
> Why is this necessary for EVs, but no other electrical device/
>
>> With these in place you can safely and reliably charge at higher rates.
>
> What do they have to do with higher rate charging?

Roger has answered this better than I can, but I can provide a couple
of examples from experience:
As you know, in the UK we have 230V, 13A domestic sockets, as
standard, 3kW, everywhere. They are considered safe and reliable. We
can get away with "mode 1" charging even.

I hear from a lot of EV owners here as I offer a repair service. A
very common problem I've heard about, is the vehicles fitted with 13A
plugs are almost guaranteed to at some point melt the plug, possibly
also the socket. With the potential to cause nasty fires in some
cases.

The domestic stuff simply isn't up to the job of being used at its
maximum rating for prolonged periods, plugged and unplugged twice a
day, in moisture and dirty environments, over many years. It says in
the manual to inspect, test and replace the cable annually. But
nobody does that.
The more robust 16A 3 pin industrial (outdoor) connectors simply don't
have this problem - that's what I've used and recommended.

So what's the next problem I hear about? The cable deteriorating. So
the car won't charge one night, that's not a big deal. But I've heard
of several instances where the earth connection has broken first, and
the problem with this is you don't notice it until something else goes
wrong - I have personally had a shock off my car bodywork for this
reason - not a good advert for EVs. The only way to combat that is a
plug that supports a pilot signal (NO domestic plug will) and a little
intelligence in an EVSE.

Bear in mind this is a small sample of a small population of a certain
type of EV - but I think it indicates a high enough risk to take extra
precautions.

> I would not mind a bit if someone devised and marketed a *better* way to
> plug things in. People do this in the connector industry all the time.
> But they don't ram it down people's throats. The new design has to
> compete on a level playing field with everything else that's on the
> market. If it truly is a better design, it wins. If it's not, it loses.

To me, the Mennekes type connector *is* a better way. It's compact
compared to all other connectors at 7kW, at 22kW (or even 44 in
future) it's amazing. And it's safer. Given that there isn't another
sensible choice for public infrastructure (in the mass market
scenario) I'm personally OK with the price of admittance.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I do not know why they did not use a AC plug and connector that is in use 
over 60 years which is made by the Power Anderson Co. for the AC side of 
ground power units.

It is arc proof, dead front, isolated, make break control pins, and 
overlapping connection which makes it water proof. It has 4 large power pins 
for any combination of voltages from 125/250 VAC single phase, wye or delta 
three phase to 277/440/460/480 VAC.

When I received my first EV back in 1976, this is the type of plug that was 
on my EV. The large all rubber male plug was install in a aluminum housing 
that had a gasket hinge door that also open when I open the hinge gas cap 
door.

It had four large power pins for 125/250 volts single phase and two small 
control pins that turn on a onboard contactor after the large power pins 
mated for plugging in AC directly to the on board charger. Also with a 
onboard transfer switch to by pass the onboard charger, it can be use to 
plug in DC from a 200 amp out board charge that was also control by the two 
control pins. The out board chargers look like pad mount transformers that 
was space across the U.S. and or located at hotels.

It came with several adapter cables, where I can plug into 125 single phase 
and also pull single phases from a 120-208 3 phase wye and 125/250 3 phase 
delta.

My EV's uses both 125 and 250 vac at the same time. The 250 vac for the on 
board charger and the 125 vac for contactors that isolated the battery 
charger from the batteries when not in use. Also I use the 125 volts for 
pre heating the electric heaters, run the battery box exhaust explosion 
proof fans and a main AC connection plug indication on the dash plate.

The 125 volts is also use to run a separate 12 volt smart charger which is 
use to charge and as a maintainer for the 12 volt accessory battery.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772 ability 
...




> > Roger Stockton wrote:
> > >> A significant fraction of the driving public would likely
> > >> have difficulty safely plugging and unplugging a NEMA 14-50 (240V 50A)
> > >> connector, for instance.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The usual 240v plugs and receptacles are poor implementations.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > The car would not be plugged in more than once a day
> > typically, while other appliances may share a plug
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Lee Hart wrote:
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> The usual 240v plugs and receptacles are poor implementations.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<I don't recall seeing actual criticism of the features of the standard
itself, but rather only that the standard does not use AC connectors already
in common use, and that the cost of the connectors it does use is higher
than we'd like to pay (although likely similar in cost to that of versions
of standard AC connectors that are suitable for the application).

Cheers,

Roger.>

NO! I've been criticizing the current, 240VAC only, non
split-phase(120VAC-neutral-120VAC) J1772 standard from the beginning. To
make the scooters and small to medium sized motorcycles I'm converting J1772
compatible, it will add hundreds of dollar to their price. It will also
take up valuable battery space and weight. Unfortunately this will also be
the case for many larger, legacy and future home-built EVs. This is over
and above the $100+ cost of the J1772 receptacle. 

If I want to retain the 120VAC charging ability(absolutely necessary for the
shorter range EVs) and use the 240VAC only, J1772 system, I'll have to pay a
premium for universal input voltage battery chargers. For battery heating,
the best I've come up with so far is separate 120VAC and 240VAC systems. 
This at least doubles the price, weight, and bulk. Any other system running
during the charging process and requiring line voltage will have to run on
both 120VAC and 240VAC. Remember, this may include any convenience or
safety equipment that has to be added in the future.

In the US, 240VAC equipment like this, is just not easily available and as
I've found, more expensive. Power converters are going to be heavy or, it
seems, unreliable. A check of the many J1772 charging stations, popping up
like spring daisies lately, shows some with 120VAC outlets; many without. 
So, I can't always depend on even that being available. 

In the US, many of the charging stations are taxpayer subsidized and should
be open to as many types of EVs as possible. The current, 240VAC only, J1772
standard makes this overly difficult and expensive to do for the small
and/or home-built EVs. If we're serious about moving away from a petroleum
based transportation system, we need to support all EVs 






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--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-J1772-ability-tp4521466p4575126.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Yes, that is correct. I'm a hard man to please.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EV Convert wrote:
> 
> > NO! I've been criticizing the current, 240VAC only, non
> > split-phase(120VAC-neutral-120VAC) J1772 standard from the beginning. To
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I would like something that is affordable *and* works well. Not
> >> too cheap, like bottom-of-the-line stuff from Home Depot. But also
> >> not extremely expensive, like the present J1772 stuff.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Apr 2012 at 1:24, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > What will it be next? ... Cellulosic ethanol?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Apr 2012 at 1:24, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Article 625 already says that the 14-50 in my garage no longer meets
> > code for EV charging.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> - But I don't know of anyone selling J1772 connectors and receptacles
> for under $200. Do you?

I do - www.TucsonEV.com
J1772 Inlet alone, no wires - $110
J1772 Plug alone, no cord - $170
Plus shipping
Of course with wire/cord the price goes up.

Very good discussion, I actually agree with a lot of both of your points.

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Apr 2012 at 14:07, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > The way it works is that any time any new work needs to be done, it
> > needs to be "up to code". As long as your old electric stove works, you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> The way it works is that any time any new work needs to be done, it
> >> needs to be "up to code". As long as your old electric stove works, you
> >> aren't required to change the old 3-pin plug and receptacle. But when
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

J1772

http://www.newark.com/multicomp/dsi-ev32p-nc/plug-ev-j1772-32a/dp/75T6614?N=
tt=3DDSI-EV32P-NC $147

http://www.newark.com/multicomp/dsi-ev32s-nc/socket-ev-j1772-32a/dp/75T6616=
?in_merch=3Dtrue&MER=3DACC_N_L5_PowerEntry_None $120

or=85


Mennekes =


http://www.newark.com/multicomp/dsiec-ev32p-nc/plug-ev-62196-2-32a/dp/75T66=
19 =A3167

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=3D75T6621 =A3177

MW



> Rush wrote:
> 
> > =
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger Stockton stated:
> It is common for households in the EU to have 3-phase power
available...

Indeed, I know that in The Netherlands, every single house has the
3-phase (3x230V which is 400V phase to phase) wired into every house's
utility closet (meters are indoors, typically in a shallow cabinet
with other utility meters and connections occupying the lower portion
and the electric incoming fusing and metering in the middle with all
the circuit breakers/fuses right above it with PVC pipes coming out
and running mostly to central distributions points, typically in the
center of the ceiling in each room and a couple PVC pipes with
dedicated circuits, having only a single outlet, for example for
the washer (water heating is often electric unless you have an ECO
model) and dryer or a solar PV system of more than 4 panels.

Now typically in each house you have only a single phase available, 
because the utility will install only one of the three fuses in your
incoming fuse box. They rotate through the 3 phases in every 3
adjacent houses to balance the load on the 3 phases.
The reason 3 phase is so popular is that the "neutral" wire can
in theory be absent when loads are perfectly balanced (just like
in 2-phase systems occasionally happens accidentally when the
neutral connection to the pole transformer goes high impedance)
and this is used in the distribution grid where only 3 wires are
needed to feed high voltage (low current) over long distance.
The dsitribution to houses will carry a neutral wire from the
local transformer to every house, but still the diameter of the
neutral does not need to be larger than any of the 3 phase wires.
Reason to wire all 3 phases into each house is simply to make
changes easy - either shifting a house to another phase in case
of imbalance, or the "upgrade" of a house to 3-phase power which
will mean only a small rewire inside the utility cabinet to divide
the existing circuit breakers over the 3 phases and to add a
3-phase fuse/breaker box to connect whatever appliance you need
to connect to the 3 phases, for example a high rate EV charger...
In my case (24 years ago) we moved out of an all-electric apartment
into a house where I needed to have an upgrade to 3-phase for the
electric range, so I added the necessary wiring and 3-phase 
fuse box and redid the connection to the existing house breakers
to split them into 3 groups, then the utility man came, checked
my work, connected the 3 separate wires to the 3 phases (from the
single phase where I had them temp connected) and added 2 more
incoming fuses to enable 3-phase. And my connection charges bill 
went up, but not by much since we did not increase the max
fused Amperage. Typically between the street wires and the meter
there is a 25 or 35A slow fuse, even though the house may have
7x 16A circuits - it is very unusual that more than one or two
circuits draw their max current. I upgraded from a single 25A
fuse to 3x 25A. If this fuse blows, the utility has to come to
replace it, since it is before the kWh meter.


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow this IS a long post, but I cannot resist my two bits worth.
First in the states using the southern electrical and building code there
is no upgrading of an entire structure unless at least 50% of the structure
is renovated or rebuilt or a value change results from renovation and/or
addition increases the apraised value more than a 100% increase from before
the renovation.
Second if I drive my $3 million RV into a campground Iplug my "Range and RV
plug" into the outlet on the pylin next to my parked RV and switch on the
breaker/disconnect in the outlet box and I hear the whole home air-cond
start. I connect up a white rubber supply hose to my water inlet and my
wife starts the washer/dryer combination. I started switching the outlet
off after my wife was suprised by the arc trying to disconect wirh the ac
running one morning. in the pre dawn darkness the arcing was bright.
I ask why do EV need a totally automatic disconnect system in that $42,000
auto but there is not one available for my $3million RV ?? Don't answer, I
know it is just a rip off on the EV drivers. Of course I prefer manual
transmissions with 9 or 18 gears and a clutch to an automatis that won't
last a million miles like my manual transmission will.But then I remind
myself under my breath, I know how to drife, I don't need an automatic
tranny or anti-lock brakes or a computer of any sort in my vehicle. Back
when I was working as a copier servicer I would recieve service calls on a
"Beeper" and write it on my log sheet with a pencil, call the customer with
my cell phone and set up a service appointment, and note that on my sheet
too, all while driving down main street at 45 MPH in town with a traffic
light every 500 feet. and still my record shows NO Chargeable vehicular
accidents in 50 years of driving.
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Founder)
*"**Electric Car Service Shop"*
*[ the Forgotten Infrastructure ]*
*[email protected] <[email protected]> I - INC.COM*
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Rod Hower <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I can actually purchase that item in the first link at single piece
> > quantity for
> ...


----------

