# Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Looks great, but the natural way to ride a two-wheeler
is to toss it from side to side in corners.
The illustration shows this design does not allow that,
even when hit in an intersection it will stay upright.
At another point in the clip they do show it toss from
side to side when riding, so I am sceptical as to how
they achieve this behavior. If it can't lean into the
corner then nobody with any two-wheeler experience can
ride on it and it will likely have poor cornering performance
but if it will allow leaning into the corners then how can
it stay upright at other moments?

I am missing something...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle

This is one of the coolest design idea I've seen in awhile

http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric
-fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=nl.e550

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Does seem suspicious, but perhaps they lean the gyro inside the bike. Some animations w/ true physics simulations would be helpful because these obviously were created without.

Have to take the whole thing with a grain of salt after hyperbolic claims like "no company in history has brought safety to motorcycles". How about BMWs ABS braking, the countless traction control system emerging, etc.
-t





> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Looks great, but the natural way to ride a two-wheeler
> > is to toss it from side to side in corners.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric-fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=nl.e550

I guess it's all in how you view their animation, since there is only 
a static display. This is not the first gyro-stabilized 2-wheeler, but 
previous attempts could not get over a gyro's natural tendency for 
precession (disambiguation). The only way this idea works is if the 
gyro can spin down rapidly once the vehicle is moving, then spin up 
just as rapidly when slowing down. Without this, their video seems to 
defy that basic laws of physics.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

He did mention a flywheel on actuated gimbal so leaning shouldn't be imposs=
ible.


On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> Looks great, but the natural way to ride a two-wheeler
> is to toss it from side to side in corners.
> The illustration shows this design does not allow that,
> even when hit in an intersection it will stay upright.
> At another point in the clip they do show it toss from
> side to side when riding, so I am sceptical as to how
> they achieve this behavior. If it can't lean into the
> corner then nobody with any two-wheeler experience can
> ride on it and it will likely have poor cornering performance
> but if it will allow leaning into the corners then how can
> it stay upright at other moments?
>
> I am missing something...
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:21 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle
>
> This is one of the coolest design idea I've seen in awhile
>
> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric
> -fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=3Dnl.e550
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

www.electric-lemon.com

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Would allowing the gimbals to precess freely about the torque-free
axis minimize the requirement to correct for this disambiguation? ...
at least in the short term it takes to run through a battery cycle?
I presume the gyro's would be reset at every charge cycle anyway since
you wouldn't want to leave the gyro running during times of
non-operation. Don't gyro stabilization systems on ships run for long
periods of time without having to be reset?

Mike



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric=
> -fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=3Dnl.e550
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Peter,
Agreed.
Only that the full energy of an impact would need to =

come from that actuated gimbal if you want the bike
to stay upright after a side impact...

Note that the video actually shows a scale model
which they apparenlty use for testing and a side
impact with a tire sliding into it causes the bike
to lean severely to the side of the impact =

(but not immediately fall over) after
which the video is cut.

The computer simulation always looks so much nicer.

BTW, if there is ever a problem with the actuation
then the bike may actually force itself to lean and
essentially become undriveable...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Peter Gabrielsson
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 3:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle

He did mention a flywheel on actuated gimbal so leaning shouldn't be imposs=
ible.


On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> Looks great, but the natural way to ride a two-wheeler is to toss it =

> from side to side in corners.
> The illustration shows this design does not allow that, even when hit =

> in an intersection it will stay upright.
> At another point in the clip they do show it toss from side to side =

> when riding, so I am sceptical as to how they achieve this behavior. =

> If it can't lean into the corner then nobody with any two-wheeler =

> experience can ride on it and it will likely have poor cornering =

> performance but if it will allow leaning into the corners then how can =

> it stay upright at other moments?
>
> I am missing something...
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On =

> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:21 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle
>
> This is one of the coolest design idea I've seen in awhile
>
> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electr
> ic -fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=3Dnl.e550
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
www.electric-lemon.com

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Sure, though if the number he quotes, 1300Ft-Lbs of torque, is correct
then that does seem like it might be enough to break the tire traction
and stay upright.
My bigger concern would be where he would fit a Actuated Gimbaled
flywheel and batteries for 150Miles of range in that show room model
and still have room for a driver.

I also very much doubt we'll see this on the roads but the idea is nifty.







> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Peter,
> > Agreed.
> > Only that the full energy of an impact would need to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

I vision a gyro keeping the bike standing up. I know this is possible
because they already make gyros big enough to keep motor yachts more stable
in rough seas. If you mount the gyro on a fore/aft axes and then use a
processor that has inputs from speed, steering angle, wind etc it would be
easy to change the angle of the gyro to give you the appropriate lean in a
turn, as shown in the video.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser
=


This e-mail, and any files attached to it, is intended solely for the person
or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, dissemination, copying,
printing, or other use of this e-mail by persons or entities other than the
addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from all
affected computers. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be
timely secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for
any errors or omissions.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Peter Gabrielsson
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle

He did mention a flywheel on actuated gimbal so leaning shouldn't be
impossible.


On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> > Looks great, but the natural way to ride a two-wheeler
> > is to toss it from side to side in corners.
> > The illustration shows this design does not allow that,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Ford has done this with a flywheel vehicle about 30 years or so ago. They 
use a ship flywheel unit in a vehicle that look like a delta wing aircraft. 
It had two wheels close together in front and in the rear.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle


Sure, though if the number he quotes, 1300Ft-Lbs of torque, is correct
then that does seem like it might be enough to break the tire traction
and stay upright.
My bigger concern would be where he would fit a Actuated Gimbaled
flywheel and batteries for 150Miles of range in that show room model
and still have room for a driver.

I also very much doubt we'll see this on the roads but the idea is nifty.







> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Peter,
> > Agreed.
> > Only that the full energy of an impact would need to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Except on a bike, during a turn at anything over dead slow, there 
ISN'T a steering angle.
You lean to turn, you don't turn the handlebars.


Ok so add in that the steering is fly by wire. As another input to the
processor as speed increases input from the handle bars adds in lean and
takes out steering. At any rate somehow very doable. My questions would have
more to do with what type of sensing corrects movements that jar the
intentional vertical position of the bike after jarring and also what keeps
the gyro informed of the earth rotation affect which is 15 degrees an hour.

Mark Grasser

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

well, the gyro ideas is not new, but wow..
http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/brennan/brennan.htm
1903 ! 
Cool pictures
/ J

"...a gyroscopic monorail vehicle. Here is a truly wonderful piece of work.

The Brennan Gyro-Monorail was 40 feet long and weighed 22 tons, and was 
designed to carry 10 tons. Speed on the level was 22 mph.
The vehicle was balanced by two vertical gyroscopes mounted side by 
side, and spinning in opposite directions at 3000 rpm. Each gyroscope 
was 3.5 feet in diameter and weighed 3/4 of a ton each. They were 
enclosed in evacuated casings to reduce air-friction losses. The 
rotational axes were horizontal.

In the Gillingham tests the vehicle was fitted with two petrol engines. A
small 20 hp unit powered the gyroscopes, drove an air-compressor (for 
braking?) lighted the car, and propelled it at slow speeds. A larger 80 
hp engine was used for high-speed propulsion.

Brennan patented the concept in 1903; see patent No 27,212, with the 
unsensational title "Improvements in and relating to the Imparting of 
Stability to otherwise Unstable Bodies, Structures or Vehicles"... 
"

> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:09:36 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle
> 
> Would allowing the gimbals to precess freely about the torque-free
> axis minimize the requirement to correct for this disambiguation? ...
> at least in the short term it takes to run through a battery cycle?
> I presume the gyro's would be reset at every charge cycle anyway since
> you wouldn't want to leave the gyro running during times of
> non-operation. Don't gyro stabilization systems on ships run for long
> periods of time without having to be reset?
> 
> Mike
> 
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric-fully-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=nl.e550
> > >
> > > I guess it's all in how you view their animation, since there is only
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle*

Traditionally gyros have been spun up to speed using air blowing on a paddle
wheel connected to the flywheel. Flywheels of this size probably took hours
to get up to speed. 


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


This e-mail, and any files attached to it, is intended solely for the person
or entity to which it is addressed. Any review, dissemination, copying,
printing, or other use of this e-mail by persons or entities other than the
addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from all
affected computers. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be
timely secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for
any errors or omissions.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Hoegberg .
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle


well, the gyro ideas is not new, but wow..
http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/brennan/brennan.htm
1903 ! 
Cool pictures
/ J

"...a gyroscopic monorail vehicle. Here is a truly wonderful piece of work.

The Brennan Gyro-Monorail was 40 feet long and weighed 22 tons, and was 
designed to carry 10 tons. Speed on the level was 22 mph.
The vehicle was balanced by two vertical gyroscopes mounted side by 
side, and spinning in opposite directions at 3000 rpm. Each gyroscope 
was 3.5 feet in diameter and weighed 3/4 of a ton each. They were 
enclosed in evacuated casings to reduce air-friction losses. The 
rotational axes were horizontal.

In the Gillingham tests the vehicle was fitted with two petrol engines. A
small 20 hp unit powered the gyroscopes, drove an air-compressor (for 
braking?) lighted the car, and propelled it at slow speeds. A larger 80 
hp engine was used for high-speed propulsion.

Brennan patented the concept in 1903; see patent No 27,212, with the 
unsensational title "Improvements in and relating to the Imparting of 
Stability to otherwise Unstable Bodies, Structures or Vehicles"... 
"

> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:09:36 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self balancing fully enclosed electric motorcycle
> 
> Would allowing the gimbals to precess freely about the torque-free
> axis minimize the requirement to correct for this disambiguation? ...
> at least in the short term it takes to run through a battery cycle?
> I presume the gyro's would be reset at every charge cycle anyway since
> you wouldn't want to leave the gyro running during times of
> non-operation. Don't gyro stabilization systems on ships run for long
> periods of time without having to be reset?
> 
> Mike
> 
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> http://www.smartplanet.com/video/lit-motors-unveils-concept-all-electric-ful
> ly-enclosed-motorcycle/6294274?tag=nl.e550
> ...


----------

