# Father/Son EV Conversion



## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

We're at the very start of the process. My son turns 16 in December, and so we're embarking on a father/son EV conversion, with some of his friends (and my younger son) interested in helping out.

The goal is to have a 4-seater highway-speed vehicle that can go 40 miles a day (although not all at highway speed). I'll use it for commuting, but also be able to swing over and pick up the boys from soccer practice, etc. 

Just to make it harder, our target donor vehicle is a MINI Cooper. I mean, who wants to have a bunch of space for motor, batteries, et al.? I'm currently picking over salvage yards looking for one that we can rebuild (a friend up the street owns 3 Coopers is an old hand at working on them, and has offered to help us with the project). If we can't find a Cooper in the next month or so, we'll switch to a more readily available donor (such as an Eclipse, MX-3, or 3000GT, although the last is a bit heavy for my tastes; finding a non-rusty 10-year-old car is a challenge in the snowiest city in the USA). The key attribute of the donor is that it be something the 16-year-old will want to be seen in after we're done. That's his incentive to work on the project; my incentive is because EVs are cool, and I've only got a couple of more years to spend significant time with him before he flies the coop, so I want to take this opportunity to really work with him on a project. 

We have what I believe to be an advantage, in that D&D Motors is here in Syracuse, and will work with us to develop our "kit." Given our other constraints, we're almost certainly looking at LiFePO4 batteries (my very rough calculations show that there's just no place to put enough LA batteries in a MINI, and the weight is a concern). I'm hoping that with the current activity by david85, et al., I'll be able to follow the trail they blaze in a few months to get a battery/BMS/charger combo that is more of a known quantity than we can find today at a decent price. 

Well, this has gotten more than long enough. Feedback/comments welcome. I've ordered Gavin's DVD, so this should be duck soup 

sc
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## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

SJC, my father, my oldest brother, and I are doing our EV conversion. It's been a great experience. We've really grown in our relationship from it. I wish you luck and I'm sure your kids will never forget the good times you're about to make!


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Welcome sjc!

My 13 year old son and I will be working on the conversion of a Miata together. One of the greater challenges will not be the conversion itself but finding time in both of our schedules to work on it together!

FYI, the recent remake of the movie The Itanlian Job, features Minis that were coverted to electric. They managed to destroy almost three dozen during the making of the movie, three of which were EVs used in the subway scenes (due to emissions).

Great project. Have fun.

Rob


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

RKM said:


> Welcome sjc!
> 
> My 13 year old son and I will be working on the conversion of a Miata together. One of the greater challenges will not be the conversion itself but finding time in both of our schedules to work on it together!
> 
> ...


Yes, finding time will be a challenge for both of us.

RE: the Italian Job, I was aware of that, but I think they didn't have to worry about range on those babies 

It'll be interesting to see how much we can integrate the more complex electronics in a newer car (e.g., drive-by-wire throttle), or whether we'll just be bypassing them. 

sc
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## ZenDaddy (Jul 22, 2008)

My 16 year old son and I have had one of the best summers of our lives in the garage with this project! Quality time with a welder and grinder! Enjoy and good luck!

I would love to do a Cooper. Post lots of pictures so we can build it "vacariously" with you!

Welcome to the forum

Michael


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sjc said:


> ...something the 16-year-old will want to be seen in after we're done.
> --


maybe a Civic, or one of the other cars that the teens typically 'pimp' with aftermarket scoops, fins, and ground effects?! Just imagine the lights and sound system you could power with 10kWhr of batteries!!!

d


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> maybe a Civic, or one of the other cars that the teens typically 'pimp' with aftermarket scoops, fins, and ground effects?! Just imagine the lights and sound system you could power with 10kWhr of batteries!!!


We went to the local repo auto auction today, to look at a specific car. After we looked at that car, the 16-yo got all excited about a Chevy Cavalier with a carbon fiber hood with fairings, a spoiler, etc. Kids these days.

The car we went to look at, and did buy, was a 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT. This was our "backup plan" for a donor car, and after more than a month looking for a MINI at a price that made sense for a conversion, we moved to Plan B. Here in snowy, salty upstate New York, our search was basically down to (a) things we could see, which meant local cars that were universally rusty at the price range we were looking for, or (b) things we couldn't see, such as various auctions on eBay, etc., which would then incur shipping or towing costs.

This car represents a middle ground, in that, while we couldn't do a full pre-sale inspection (driving, etc.) because of the auction restrictions, we could check the car out for basic electrical systems, start it, look for rust, etc. I knew from the Carfax report this was a Pennsylvania car originally, which had just been moved up to Syracuse this year, so it didn't have any rust or frame issues.

We ended up going $100 over the budget line I'd set before going to the auction, but I figured it was worth it to be done with the donor car hunt.

I'll post pictures when we bring it home on Tuesday. The MINI project will have to wait...

sc
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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

sjc said:


> We ended up going $100 over the budget line I'd set before going to the auction, but I figured it was worth it to be done with the donor car hunt.
> 
> sc
> --


Frankly, I wouldn't call $100 over budget! That's an incedental! Congrats on a purchase.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

One other note on the batteries: now that we've got the Eclipse, LA batteries are back in play. I put a token entry in the garage (look for the "EVclipse") that I'll flesh out as the design takes shape.

My budget for the bid was $2750; I ended up bidding $2,850, and the auction fees and taxes brought it up to $3,278.

sc (Steve)
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## brent.massey (Jul 23, 2008)

sjc said:


> the 16-yo got all excited about a Chevy Cavalier with a carbon fiber hood with fairings, a spoiler, etc. Kids these days.


Sounds like he's watched the fast and the furious one too many times! 

But the carbon fiber hood will be a help when you start thinking about weight reduction. Guarantee you its lighter than stock!


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

brent.massey said:


> But the carbon fiber hood will be a help when you start thinking about weight reduction. Guarantee you its lighter than stock!


Yes, I'm already worried about that, because this car weighs substantially more than I was expecting. I recall looking at the curb weight for earlier Eclipses, and it was 2500+ pounds, and didn't check the change in weights during the major redesigns (the 2000 model year is the 2nd redesign of the Eclipse). This pig checks in at 3000 lb.! I'm hoping a bunch of that is the v6 engine...that curb weight was my primary reason not to go with a 3000GT/Stealth.

sc
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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

I added two photos to the garage entry. In one of them, you can see the "son" of the "father/son" for this conversion in the background (between the car and the house).

Now, to get down to the real work. The physical side will be pulling the engine, with the help of our friends down the street, and the mental side will be more planning of the wiring and systems now that we have an actual car to work with.

sc
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## rallyshark (Sep 19, 2008)

The good news about picking an eclipse is that it is a tuner car.

I'm sure there are alot of lightweight aluminum, carbon fiber and fiberglass components for it available. Not only for the body but suspension parts as well.

Don't forget the interior either. Many cars have alot of extra, heavy crap on inside.

Front seats are notorious for looking alot lighter than they really are. (Rear seats too for that matter).


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Time for an update.

I spent a good chunk of the last year in Seattle, so we've made little progress on the car. That's the bad news.

The good news is that I'm back, and Son is ready to dig in, as he wants to drive this soon! We've ordered 45 160Ah TS LiFePO4 cells, which will give us our nominal pack voltage of 144V with a much better energy density and range than the original plan for a lead pack. In fact, my rough calculations show that we should now be weight neutral, as the batteries and motor should clock in at about what the 6 cyl. ICE was.

We also have a Zilla controller on order, which is another improvement over the original plan (we had planned a Curtis because Zillas were out of production last year). Both batteries and Zillas should arrive in December.

Now we're on to choosing a BMS and charger. Given that the Li batteries (and Zilla) totally trashed my budget (those two together are more than my original total budget for the conversion!), I'm looking to economize.

Anyone have input on using Fechter/Goodrum BMS? It looks like the lowest-price full-featured BMS I can find.

Also, any thoughts on chargers? Given the budget constraints, I can't see springing for a Manzanita. An option that one of the guys at EV Components suggested is to get an 8A 144V charger (cost, about $650), and see how that works. It'd take longer than a simple overnight charge to recharge 70% DOD, but in a typical day I don't anticipate going beyond about 35% DOD. I estimate pack range at 60-70 miles at 70% DOD, and my most common drive is < 20 miles (straight to work and back). Adding in a side trip to a soccer center bumps it up to 35 miles. If, in practice, one of the lighter chargers isn't sufficient, I can add another one in parallel to bump the amperage up to 16A, and still save $700 off the price of the Manzanita.

So, our current plan is to finalize Zilla, BMS, and Charger options, and to get the other miscellaneous components so that when the batteries and controller arrive in December, we're ready to go.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I got a PFC2000 from KTA Services and I'm very pleased with it. I was trying to keep my current draw to 15A or less so I could find easier opportunity charging. Also, I can use 220 if I need it (or had it!).


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Not much of an update; my battery/controller/charger order from EVComponents has been delayed a month, so I'm expecting it in January. 

A friend, who actually has a dealer's license, lives three doors down, and we (meaning he, but I helped!) just bought a 1990 Porsche 911 from a salvage auction in Richmond, VA. He has lots of experience rebuilding 911s, so he's planning on fixing it up (it has some flood damage so it won't start, but the base car appears to be cherry) and then driving it for a while/selling it when the time is right.

All this has got me thinking I should be converting a 911 instead of an Eclipse. At this rate, I'll never get started! I've also been looking for a MINI Clubman with a manual transmission at salvage, as that would keep the cost down. But, I doubt I'll ever find one at a price point that makes sense.

So, we hope to really begin digging into the car project after the start of the new year.

sc
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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Just so you know, if it helps in your decision, the eclipse V6 engine weighs 390 lbs without started and alternator. We just shipped one removed for a conversion so we had to weigh it.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sjc said:


> Now we're on to choosing a BMS and charger.
> Anyone have input on using Fechter/Goodrum BMS? It looks like the lowest-price full-featured BMS I can find.


I dunno about the Fechter.... but am considering the 'Hardy-48' from KTA for my next ev which will be Li. Not a bad price at $1000, and it looks like it has all the 'active' features.
http://store.kta-ev.com/Battery_Management_Systems/BMS_48_cells.aspx

I would love to hear from anyone who has used one of these? good? bad?


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> I dunno about the Fechter.... but am considering the 'Hardy-48' from KTA for my next ev which will be Li. Not a bad price at $1000, and it looks like it has all the 'active' features.
> http://store.kta-ev.com/Battery_Management_Systems/BMS_48_cells.aspx
> 
> I would love to hear from anyone who has used one of these? good? bad?


I don't know yet, either. I have become convinced that bottom balancing is more important than top balancing. The Hardy-48 would certainly seem to meet my needs, with 45 160AH cells in my pack.

sc
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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

And the latest update:

1) Batteries are delayed again until the end of the month. The Zilla is supposed to be ready then, although I haven't gotten a firm ship date yet. Now they're also waiting for a charger...

2) It's official, the EVClipse is halted, and we're going over to the 9 el-EV-en. I am finalizing the purchase of an engineless (and, unfortunately, transmissionless) Porsche 911 Targa from CA, and having it shipped to NY. It will probably beat the batteries here.

The Son was less than thrilled with this idea. He thinks the Eclipse is cooler. I had to overrule him on this one.

The best I can do for now is a photo from the eBay auction:


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