# Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

They only made 14-16 of these.....the most famous one was driven by Yasmine Bleeth on the Nash Bridges TV show, the company folded. Was reborn as Xebra Motors...but never went anywhere...Don Johnson ("Nash Bridges, Miami Vice") I think owns the molds.....

Very pretty car....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Mine is number 16 so I'm pretty sure they made at least 16  I belive 
there were 18 made.
On our Tropica Yahoo group we have a list of all the VINs.

The molds are sad story. When Xebra went belly up, they walked away 
from everything, parts,
cars, chassis and the molds. All of this was sold at auction with Kirk 
Hoeffler in Alameda getting
most of the parts. No one wanted to store the molds so into the 
dumpster they went.

http://eastbay.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2001/06/18/story8.html?from_msn_money=1

The "Caitlin" car was not at Xebra when the auction happened. No one 
seemed to know where it
went. The TV production company said it was returned. A number of years 
ago it appeared up for auction
with a number of Don Johnson's cars. All the cars sold but this one. I 
got curious and called the Barrett
Jackson (auction company). The person I talked to thought was odd as 
well as the car wasn't listed
as sold or for sale. It then disappeared again. It appeared for action 
in '06 or '07 and was sold this
time. I don't know who has the car now.

Everytime I see one of these for sale, and the price they get, I think 
of selling mine. My wife
then asks the question, "then what would you buy?" Sigh, currently no 
choices...

Steve




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +



They only made 14-16 of these.....the most famous one was driven by 
Yasmine
Bleeth on the Nash Bridges TV show, the company folded. Was reborn as 
Xebra
Motors...but never went anywhere...Don Johnson ("Nash Bridges, Miami 
Vice") I
think owns the molds.....

Very pretty car....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

I talked via email to Don Johnson or his spokesperson about aquireing
the molds, I was informed that they didn't want to continue paying
storage on them and trashed them.

If we could aquire one, and take it apart, we could make a mold off of
the parts. 

I am not sure that is the best solution, every one I see pictures of
looks awful. huge gaps at all the joints. The one Yasmine drove was the
best lo0king of the lot.

I think I would just buy a kit car
http://www.kitcarlist.com/

like maybe the piontek sportec funcars riot which was used as the base
for the prototype T-zero, if they are still around. it looks like they
now have 4 or 5 name changes and their website is down. Indeed, the kit
car sites themselfs have gone nuts, useless sites with endless and
broken links and ads and no substance :-(

I would like to design my own kit car just for EV's. Lots of Ideas, but
I think it is a little beyond me.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

The RIOT molds are available from it's originator Tom Mcburnie of Thunderranch.....

Whatever will AC Propulsion do if someone else snaps up the molds?

http://www.thunderranch.com/classified.html

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

The RIOT molds are available from it's originator Tom Mcburnie of Thunderranch.....

Whatever will AC Propulsion do if someone else snaps up the molds?

http://www.thunderranch.com/classified.html

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

As an added note on this, the price is very reasonable for what is included....and chassis/parts are readily available in the aftermarket..

If someone was serious about producing their own EV kits for sale..this would be a terrific place to start...developing a set of molds like this from a scratch design can take a year of more and cost close to $100k in R&D sorting items like suspension and steering components, panel fitment etc....

Making molds off any existing car, such as the Tropica, is not that hard..just labor intensive...once the molds are done, limited production is very doable...
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> On 22 Mar 2008 at 7:55, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > I would like to design my own kit car just for EV's. Lots of Ideas, but
> > I think it is a little beyond me.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Here is a car, where all the panels and frame is pre-built and all you have 
to do is bolt it together. You can use any suspension system you want from 
stock to custom. These are normally mid engine type.

www.davewolin.com/manta.htm

Takes only 80 hours to assembly if you have all the hard ward and run it 
with only a gel coat finish.

My unit uses a Muncie Transaxle that were built for the 1966 to 1969 
Corvairs. These suspensions units were design using the same components as 
on the 1963 to 1969 Corvettes.

The side panels under the door which are either steel gas tanks or fuel 
cells, could house the batteries. My GE 11 traction motor could bolt right 
up to the transaxle which any GM, Ford or any prime mover is use.

These cars only weigh about 1300 lbs with a engine and running gear.

Back in 1973, these body panels, frame, upholstery, shifter unit, and 
steering unit cost me about $3600.00. Bought a whole 1966 Corvair from a 
mechanic friend of mine for $425.00 to get the rear suspension out of it and 
bought a 53 Beatle VW for $25.00 to get the torsion tubes out of the front 
end.

Use a hot rod kit for the steering rack and pinion, suspension systems and 
steering column.

My body man is building one of theses, which you can still get the panels 
from some one that only makes them as require. But he is further customizing 
it with those glass in head lights, and Ferrari swing up doors, digital 
instrumentations and air suspension, color sand candy apple coating and 
remote door and hood clickers for remote opening.

He will not sell it even for $80,000.00 because he said he has additional 
$40,000.00 in it. Back in 73, it cost about $25,000.00 to have them 
assembly it in running condition.

He said there is one of these units in E-bay which someone did not start to 
work on, which would be only the body, glass, and frame for about $5000.00.

Roland










----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +




> > On 22 Mar 2008 at 7:55, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to design my own kit car just for EV's. Lots of Ideas, but
> > > I think it is a little beyond me.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Kitcars are wonderful bases for EV's, the method for producing fiberglass bodies (hand layup, spray-up) is very low tech, and speaking relative to metal stamping presses, the tooling is very inexpensive.

Many advances have been made, in both materials and methods, that allow for easy scale up from low to medium volume production.

If done right, the materials in composite car "body in white" is only about $1000. If done as a composite monocoque (where there is no metal frame) then the only additional components are suspension, brakes,gearbox, and steering....available "off the shelf" from different manufacturers...that bolt right to the monocoque. And of course glass and interior trimmings...

Making a kit that could accept an electic drive system is simple....the problem is often in getting them to market. A kit manufacturer has to be very careful to produce only components. If he produces complete "turn key" cars he is then classified as a manufacturer and subject to the full effect of NHTSA rules and Federal Motor vehicle Safety Standards...crash testing and EPA Regulations....nostalgia cars (Cobras, hotrods, reproductions) get by this because the chassis are reproduced as per original specs and the cars met the standards of the day...Many kitcars use donor chassis and just bolt on a new body...and register as the origianl donor.

New proprietary designs don't have that luxury....

Before you buy a kit for your EV, check the local laws (which vary a bit state to state) so you know if you can even register it.....

David
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> Dave Beard wrote:
> > Kitcars are wonderful bases for EVs... producing fiberglass bodies
> > is low tech... the tooling is inexpensive... easy scale up from low
> > to medium volume production... body materials only about $1000...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Yes! If could afford it I would send money every two weeks. Maybe if I
get that raise...
I have even thought that as soon as a sunrise roller is ready, I can
transfer my motor and controller to it bringing me back to daily driver.

But I also have some unique ideas I'd like to try. Some sound rather
off-beat so I will spare you.





> > On 22 Mar 2008 at 7:55, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >
> >
> >> > I would like to design my own kit car just for EV's. Lots of Ideas, but
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

I think the problem is that just adding a fiberglass body to a donor car
can result in a heavier vehicle if not careful.
the corvette and the fiero are examples where the weight is higher than
I would like.

> Kitcars are wonderful bases for EV's, the method for producing fiberglass bodies (hand layup, spray-up) is very low tech, and speaking relative to metal stamping presses, the tooling is very inexpensive.
>
> Many advances have been made, in both materials and methods, that allow for easy scale up from low to medium volume production.
>
> If done right, the materials in composite car "body in white" is only about $1000. If done as a composite monocoque (where there is no metal frame) then the only additional components are suspension, brakes,gearbox, and steering....available "off the shelf" from different manufacturers...that bolt right to the monocoque. And of course glass and interior trimmings...
>
> Making a kit that could accept an electic drive system is simple....the problem is often in getting them to market. A kit manufacturer has to be very careful to produce only components. If he produces complete "turn key" cars he is then classified as a manufacturer and subject to the full effect of NHTSA rules and Federal Motor vehicle Safety Standards...crash testing and EPA Regulations....nostalgia cars (Cobras, hotrods, reproductions) get by this because the chassis are reproduced as per original specs and the cars met the standards of the day...Many kitcars use donor chassis and just bolt on a new body...and register as the origianl donor.
> 
And the voltswagon bug was a popular chassis partially because you
didn't have to kep much of it to still claim it as a vw.
> New proprietary designs don't have that luxury....
>
> Before you buy a kit for your EV, check the local laws (which vary a bit state to state) so you know if you can even register it.....
>
> David
> 
Unfortunately, to make an effective EV roller, we have to stay away from
what has been done that assumes ICE and fuel tank. That is why the
sunrise II (Is this the official name?) is such a great project. It was
designed as an EV and has already had crash testing.

The issue in California with kit cars, are that there is a state limit
per year of only a few hundred.

Vehicle safety standards are strange. I looked into it with the NHTSA
and a test facility and there are clear rules of what a car must meet.
But testing is basically on the honor of the company. As a company you
must be able to show "that a reasonable effort was made to adhere to
standards".

This is 1 to convince insurance companies the vehicle is worth insuring,
and 2 that when you do get hauled into court, the business doesn't
change ownership!
The insurance institute testing is independent and, I think, has come
into existance because the insurance companies know they are just
trusting the auto companies otherwise.
Some vehicles are crashed 100,000 times in virtual reality before they
crash one in front of the camera for the commercial. While the real
crash is the only one you can be sure of, it is one datapoint after the
design is committed. The computer can give you so many different tests
and before the design is committed.

I think a composite monocoque chassis can provide a degree of safety 
above what we have now. This is not gonna happen in a single wall
layup, it needs a re-inforced 2 wall with core style layup. But man it
will be nicely soundproofed and insulated!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Hi Jeff, David and All,


----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:45:34 -0700

>I think the problem is that just adding a fiberglass body
>to a donor car can result in a heavier vehicle if not
>careful.

True but using a composite monocoque done right can
be very light, strong. Problem is few road cars have been
built and most of them by Lotus, Ferrari, Mclaren. But
instead of high tech, high cost composites like them, medium
tech composites can do the job well at a reasonable cost.

the corvette and the fiero are examples where the
>weight is higher than I would like.

These are steel cars with composite skins. A factory
racing version of the Corvette with a hard top weighs 50lbs
less than the stock version.


>
>> Kitcars are wonderful bases for EV's, the method for
>producing fiberglass bodies (hand layup, spray-up) is very
>low tech, and speaking relative to metal stamping presses,
>>the tooling is very inexpensive. 
>> Many advances have been made, in both materials and
>methods, that allow for easy scale up from low to medium
>>volume production. 

I have to agree. Especially for start up EV
companies as it's about the only way to get quality, built
as EV's in the next 5 yrs.
The ability to use 1/2 the size battery pack, EV
drive because the glider weighs much less, allowing other
componants to be smaller, lighter or eliminated all together
like power steering, brakes, ect makes it the way to do cost
effective EV's.


>> If done right, the materials in composite car "body in
>white" is only about $1000. 

Yes it is rather inexpensive.

If done as a composite
>monocoque (where there is no metal frame) then the only
>additional components are suspension, brakes,gearbox, and
>steering....available "off the shelf" from different
>manufacturers...that bolt right to the monocoque. And of
>>course glass and interior trimmings... 

This part designed right can greatly cut labor,
costs and weight. Do to such lighter weight though I'm
having problems finding parts equal to it. But solving that
mostly by building them myself. 


>> Making a kit that could accept an electic drive system is
>simple....the problem is often in getting them to market. A
>kit manufacturer has to be very careful to produce only
>components. If he produces complete "turn key" cars he is
>then classified as a manufacturer and subject to the full
>effect of NHTSA rules and Federal Motor vehicle Safety
>Standards...crash testing and EPA Regulations....nostalgia
>cars (Cobras, hotrods, reproductions) get by this because
>the chassis are reproduced as per original specs and the
>cars met the standards of the day..

But the customer only needs to add the motor,
batteries to an otherwise turnkey glider to make it legal as
a kit. You can title it in the kit builders state and then
take it home if your state is like Cal. It's not like you'll
have a problem passing the emissions test ;^D

.
>> Before you buy a kit for your EV, check the local laws
>(which vary a bit state to state) so you know if you can
>>even register it..... 
>> David
>> 
>Unfortunately, to make an effective EV roller, we have to
>stay away from what has been done that assumes ICE and fuel
>tank. That is why the sunrise II (Is this the official
>name?) is such a great project. It was designed as an EV
>and has already had crash testing.

I'm not sure any ICE conversion can be a cost
effective EV business. Really only built as EV's for very
low drag are going to be successful. The best way for most
is buy a kitcar dead to new and put in an EV drive.
Better of course is the Sunrise 2 as it's built
exactly as an EV. It really has to be tested again as it's a
different layup, ect but is designed for good crash
protection. And other than a vid, nothing remains on the
crash tests anyways we know of.


>I think a composite monocoque chassis can provide a degree
>of safety above what we have now. This is not gonna
>happen in a single wall layup, it needs a re-inforced 2
>wall with core style layup. But man it will be nicely
>soundproofed and insulated!

The Freedom's body/chassis is much stiffer than a
steel one. And it's because everything reinforces each other
and using curves, cores and one to 100 layers depending on
location that you can't do in metals.

Jerry Dycus

>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

Jerry, you mention having some trouble finding parts that are equal to the lightwieght construction.....

And you mention crash data for the sunrise...

I might be able to help in both these areas...
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I think a composite monocoque chassis can provide a degree of safety
> > above what we have now. This is not gonna happen in a single wall
> > layup, it needs a re-inforced 2 wall with core style layup. But man it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

The first one is very expensive..the rest are tied to volume and labor costs...

Volume is scalable with modern methods, automated processes....it is not the issue it was in the days of the Sunrise....composites manufacturing has come a long way....

The monocoque is the chassis, and vin numbers can be affixed to them pretty much the same as to a steel car....

Computers are capable of crash simulations and deformation of composite stuctures...the tech is there, it's the money and the concerted effort that is lacking.....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Unfortunately, to make an effective EV roller, we have to stay away from
> > what has been done that assumes ICE and fuel tank. That is why the
> > sunrise II (Is this the official name?) is such a great project.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*

>> the corvette and the fiero are examples where the
>> weight is higher than I would like.



> jerryd wrote:
> > These are steel cars with composite skins. A factory
> > racing version of the Corvette with a hard top weighs 50lbs
> > less than the stock version.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Yeah; core with fiberglass on both sides is amazingly strong and
> > lightweight! I would love to have an EV constructed in this manner.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] interesting EV on ebay +*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Morgan, I believe you're in the Minneapolis MN area? If so, come on out
> > and see the Sunrise, and you *can* build an EV like this!
> 
> ...


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