# 600 series outrunner motor from EnerTrac



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Wow, looks very nice.

What kind of controller do you use?

Does it support regenerative braking?

Could you modify it for higher power, lets say, 50kW peak?

Price?

This motor would be great for small car conversions.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

That tiny little thing is 30kw peak? I was expecting something bigger.

VERY interesting.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

With that motor I know that developing it for wheel motors would be an obvious direction and a good one.

Another direction is that if the motor could be made to hang on a single swing arm, which I think was mentioned on your original build thread on another forum, then the rotor could be designed to be bolted on the back of a car flywheel. The stator could be bolted to an adaptor plate that bolts onto the gearbox bell housing. Instant descrete motor for conversion.

It would seem that using a hollow shaft means that the motor could be stacked onto a common fixed axle. The stator end faces could be dog clutched or splined together and the rotor could do like wise. Cables could be routed inside the stator axle. This may allow two or three motors to be stacked and assembled straight onto the flywheel and bell housing as above.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Just had a idea... Two of those could be used for regen on existing RWD conversions!!

I would put two of those on the front wheels of my BMW

60kW of regen would do 90% of all needed braking 

How many kW can they recapture?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Another direction is that if the motor could be made to hang on a single swing arm, which I think was mentioned on your original build thread on another forum, then the rotor could be designed to be bolted on the back of a car flywheel. The stator could be bolted to an adaptor plate that bolts onto the gearbox bell housing. Instant descrete motor for conversion.


Something like this?


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> With that motor I know that developing it for wheel motors would be an obvious direction and a good one.
> 
> Another direction is that if the motor could be made to hang on a single swing arm, which I think was mentioned on your original build thread on another forum, then the rotor could be designed to be bolted on the back of a car flywheel. The stator could be bolted to an adaptor plate that bolts onto the gearbox bell housing. Instant descrete motor for conversion.
> 
> It would seem that using a hollow shaft means that the motor could be stacked onto a common fixed axle. The stator end faces could be dog clutched or splined together and the rotor could do like wise. Cables could be routed inside the stator axle. This may allow two or three motors to be stacked and assembled straight onto the flywheel and bell housing as above.


Those are just the ideas i was thinking about except the hiding it in the bell housing that I never though about 

Stacking motors is something I will be showing shortly and not 3d cad drawing but the real deal.

Answer to other questions
Motor size the motor is 254mm in Dia. and the stator is 60mm with two motors driving the wheel, its like a 254mm Dia 120mm 24 pole motor using highgrade transformer steel and oversized bearings.
50KW with water cooling yet to be developed.

Mark


----------



## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

Pricing info etc. here: http://www.doingitall.net/EnerTrac/product.php


----------



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

This the motor from my washing machine. The magnets can lose magnetism if heated too much.


http://www.yourgreendream.com/diy_fp_parts.php


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Something like this?


Yep just like that. Old idea but an opportunity to make one that is easy to use as a conversion kit.
Keeping the axial length short would allow an easier conversion and if the adaptor plate was made over size and with concentric circles it would make diy adaptation to a stock bell housing easier. It could also come ready drilled for common applications.
For stached motors the adaptor plate just becomes cylindrical to take the length of the stack.

The flywheel end would still have the bushing for the gearbox primary shaft.

I think that two or three motors could be stacked on a single ended shaft but possibly at three or four stack there may need to be a bearing on the outrunner behind the flywheel or possibly a bearing in the connection between outrunners in the stack.
It may still be shorter then a series wound motor installation.

With future development there could be a small diameter clutch connection that would replace the flywheel clutch assembly. That would make the whole assembly even shorter.

Maybe even a syncro cone and dog clutch between out runners so that successive motors could be connected in and out of line while running offering additonal power or economy.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Y
> 
> *I think that two or three motors *could be stacked on a single ended shaft but possibly at three or four stack there may need to be a bearing on the outrunner behind the flywheel.
> It may still be shorter then a series wound motor installation.


It's not a problem to stack them together, but motor control is a problem IMO. Every motor would probably need a own controller (or not?) so it's a price, weight, space and complexity issue.

Are there some other suitable brushless controllers than Kelly's?

https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=41,26


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I know in the UK there are some people running pairs of 60v Agni motors wired in series with a 120v pack and only one controller.
However, Agni motors don't stack and have to be used in pairs nose to nose onto a pulley.

Mark, would your motors be able to run wired in series on one controller?


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> It's not a problem to stack them together, but motor control is a problem IMO. Every motor would probably need a own controller (or not?) so it's a price, weight, space and complexity issue.
> 
> Are there some other suitable brushless controllers than Kelly's?
> 
> https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=41,26


There are other controllers Sevcon has a high voltage controller.
Kelly is the most proven with the motor, so it is the one I recommend

As long as I lock the stators and rotors together with the proper timing then I can wire them in parallel and stack them. The key is to line up the hall sensors on the stators and get the magnets lined up on the Rotors (got to know your north and south). 

I'm even thinking about a series parallel stack of four motors

I ordered a press for my shop so I can press out the axles and make my own axle to stack stators on. This arrangment would need forced air cooling, much easier to do with a car build.

R&D is one thing there being a need is another.

Mark



Mark


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Welcome Mark!
I told you there were a bunch of good guys over here!
Your options look very promising.
One of the most promising features of your 2-motor front wheel drive design is the fact that there is NO transmission. 
Do you think that the stacked motors could be connected directly to the drive shaft of a rear wheel drive vehicle (i.e. BMW 318) and still have enough power/rpms to give the vehicle descent acceleration and top speed?
Inquiring minds want to know. I would love to have no transmission with a rear wheel drive vehicle, regenerative braking, stacked electric motors and one controller. That would be ideal. I'd go for that design in a NY minute!

Thanks for all that you have contributed.

Eric


----------



## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

No transmisson and no differential is exactly what I need to replace that
huge, weak, high brush maintenance sepex motor I got in my car right now. The motor is integrated with the transmission and differential so its not easy to replace. 
Ive been looking at small brusa and mes dea motors but they would all need a trans and differential and at 3 times the price of your motors.

Maybe I missed it in the huge endless-sphere thread but do you have some tourque curves for the motor?


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

adtw said:


> The GMS Dual 70hp (peak)* AC* Power Train.
> 
> 
> http://www.greenmotorsport.com//products_and_services/3,1,388,17,27462.html
> ...


Interesting setup, but at only 48 volts, 36 kw, you aren't getting a lot of power for the money. HPG AC31 and 50 are 115 volts at 550 amps for 63 kw and less than $5k.


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

adtw said:


> The GMS Dual 70hp (peak)* AC* Power Train.
> 
> 
> http://www.greenmotorsport.com//products_and_services/3,1,388,17,27462.html
> ...


 
The greenmotorsport product is 12000.00 dollars (low side), a high end product, because it has gearboxes the electrical differential is complicated to implement. It engineering looks excellent have any been tested.

The Poulsen system has been in the works for a while now. Don't see people slapping them on so fast, Though they claim only ten minutes extra to change a tire, the look of the torque arm wrapping around the tire is going to be a hard sell, just my opinion, I certainly could be wrong and wish them luck. I'm not building a system for the masses, but the DIY conveter, so the product isn't in the same market as mine.

The upside of my system (there are down sides) is its simple - direct drive which keeps cost somewhat lower. Probably 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the greenmotorsport system, with controllers depending on configuration. 

Thanks for the links it was informative 

Mark


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Very cool stuff

The one aspect of all those designs is that they are generally not available to the DIY person, designed for a specific car or are extremely expensive. 

The idea isn't that novel as all the examples above shows, just making it advailable to the DIY crowd is.

Mark


----------



## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

Mark,

I appreciate your efforts on behalf of the DIY crowd. If I was in the market right now I would be seriously considering your product. Honestly you're being extremely polite and for your sake I will call out the thread crapping going on above as just that. Some people are more interested in dreaming about products they will never even have the opportunity to look at, let alone buy.

To those posting other companies vaporware: Please make a new thread if you want to discuss some unavailable dream toys, rather then crapping in Mark's. He posted this here about a product that he is making available to the DIY market and at decent prices using controllers that we already know and use. 

Anyway, getting back to your product, one advantage I see with this system is the option to use two cheaper controllers instead of one more expensive single controller. Otherwise you can also do a Series/Parallel switch to give you the potential for two speed, similar to White Zombie. What is the actual max voltage you're expecting these motors to handle? I see 96 volts on your website, if more possible?

Adam


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Mark

I've been following your thread on ES and been impressed by the way you've followed this idea through. I reckon it would make a great solution for a lightweight four-wheeler, but I would like to know if you have any measurements or estimates of continuous and peak torque (say 30 seconds)?

These would be very useful for working out the maximum weight of vehicle that your motors are suitable for. Apologies if you've already posted these elsewhere.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think, Mark, that a lower (relative) cost motor compared to the high end examples shown earlier would work well with the DIY converter so I am all in favour of your sucess. 

I do see wheel motors being the way forward eventually, but for most converters I think a compact motor attaching to the transmission is simpler and it will offer a more adaptable dsign that allows the use of gears to compensate for a lower output from the motor and also to provide a mechanical reverse gear.

When technology and manufacturing costs decrease then wheel motors, whether inboard or in wheel, will take over as the predominant method as it removes the transmission weight and frees up space. However, the multiple motor controller will need to be equally as affordable then too.

Quite possibly, with people like you and people like us, personal transport will become less dominated by global corporations and the individual will be able to produce or convert vehicles that better suit the needs of the time.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

I know that some folk who are not familiar with, shall we say, 'forum etiquette', may not understand the term 'thread hijacking'. I will assume that adtw is not familiar with the term. This thread started out with Mark's motor development project discussion. Now, it has been inundated with adtw demonstrating his (her) ability to google, cut and paste.

Moderators: can you please move all of these adtw postings to another thread and allow this discussion to continue?

I have not yet seen such a blatant disregard of subject matter........almost like adtw is a disgruntled competitor trying to kill the discussion. Just sayin'.........



Now, let's just get back on subject.

Love your 600 series motors, Mark. Can't wait to see the torque numbers for the automotive application.

Eric


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

ADTW,

Could you please keep your pictures down around the 400 x 600 mark.
I hate having to scroll sideways to read posts (especially when sorting through stuff we've all searched on google and youtube ourselves already).

Thanks,
Keith


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, you really should move all this into a thread titled "Really cool looking motors you probably can't buy", since they have no actual relevance to Marks motors which you can buy.


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yeah, you really should move all this into a thread titled "Really cool looking motors you probably can't buy", since they have no actual relevance to Marks motors which you can buy.


I have to agree showing projects like the *Michelin Active Wheel* and others is just trying to trivialize my development work, I guess, since it adds nothing to my development work and how a wheel motor can best be developed for the DIY crowd. But I'm use to experts in everything who do nothing, except maybe search google to show how smart they are.

Lecturing me on the Agni motor is even more ridiculous. I've been doing this for over two years now don't you think I know the field. 

I've already done 2000 pound pull tests witha single 603 motor to 50 MPH

time to stop

mark


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Back on track

I've been contracted to supply two wheel motors for a three wheeled city car. The gentleman is in Denmark. I am pressing out the axles and reconfiguring the motors for his application. He wants to do all the controller work himself. 

I'm re-lacing the wheels with 16 inch rims from 18 inch and reversing the axle on one motor to make a left and right motor. Also bringing the wires out the disc brake side. This is a very light weight car







this is the basic wheel motor before I do the rework. He wants to use this brake system and is going to work some mechanism to engage the two master cylinder in parallel. 

I have to get his permission to post details on the car but I want to state that the DIY group doesn't need a finished product that drops into a certain model car. Many of us will design our own solutions, within reason, given a good motor, engineering support, and a company willing to custom design the configuration. 

My goal is not to replicate the Tesla, as with my motorcycle work I'm looking to make good electric transportation products.

Mark


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Left and right configuration? Even better!

Is it a Delta trike or a Tadpole trike? Just wondering how your wheel motors adapt to steering?

Had I know about your motor sooner I think I would be planning a build along the lines of a 1930's Morgan Trike. That would mean that there would be no need to consider motor and transmission space, just battery pack and controller, and wet weather gear.


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Here is a picture of a left/right 600 series hub motor we put together for a customer and the trike they are going to be used in
















Mark


----------



## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I hope your customer in Denmark posts his results here. I've done a little research on the CityEl in stock configuration-the models i've seen have no true differential and a motor like an underpowered golf cart, so with two external motors he should both free up a lot of internal room and give your client enough power to get in serious trouble!

Speaking of which-given the oversteer and roll risks of many Delta configurations, has your client considered a single FWD with free-spinning rear wheels? Even one of your designs would crush the stock motor in most CityEls...


----------



## nfj (Sep 25, 2009)

Here You have a quick "ellert" it runs 210Km/h 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqUE0pSlUA

I dont think Marks HUB motor can match that ? (haha)


----------



## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

nfj said:


> Here You have a quick "ellert" it runs 210Km/h
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqUE0pSlUA
> 
> I dont think Marks HUB motor can match that ? (haha)



Dear Lord I hope not!


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

We have focused of road motorcycles to date but now have decided to begin testing and offer for sale a Dirt bike version of the 600 series motor. This is our 603 model rated at 7 RPM/volt unloaded 
In smaller bikes such as the YZ 125 the advailable battery real estate is much smaller than on a road bike making the advantage of a wheel motor very attractive. Of course the added unsprung weight is the trade off. I'm hoping the trade off doesn't overwhelm the advantage testing and rider feedback will answer the question. 
In my evaluation and others who have tested my bikes we are surprised at how little the unsprung weight hurts the handling of the bike. What has to be separated in the handeling evaluation is the centrifugal weight, the weight further out that is multiplied by the spinning mass, This centrifugal weight has a much bigger impact on handling than the mass that is in around the axle. 

We have begun testing with a 36 volt lead acid pack with a 100 volt Lithium pack on order





 








If anyone wants to test ride any of my bikes, just email me and lets set up a meeting.

Mark


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet, have you addressed the waterproofing issues we talked about early on?


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sweet, have you addressed the waterproofing issues we talked about early on?


The standard product is splash proof. I can deliver a special that is water proof. Adding the seals needed would add about 20mm to the width of the motor and add some cost. True underwater operation would require ceramic feedthroughs for the wires again all doable. 

Mark


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Good to know. I've always wanted to do a chain less 6 motor independent suspension version of my AMPhibian  Just have to figure out a way to afford it 
What about silicone on the mating surfaces of the stock motor, and a glob around the wires, for small stream crossings on a dirt bike?


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Good to know. I've always wanted to do a chain less 6 motor independent suspension version of my AMPhibian  Just have to figure out a way to afford it
> What about silicone on the mating surfaces of the stock motor, and a glob around the wires, for small stream crossings on a dirt bike?


For six wheels I can give you a great package price which also includes controllers. If your serious lets talk off line. 

Thats basically what we are doing for dirt bikes plus sealing all the screws 

Mark


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The dirt bike looks very interesting.

Have you thought about a two wheel drive version? That would add an extra twist (pun intended) to independent throttle control for rock hopping.


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> The dirt bike looks very interesting.
> 
> Have you thought about a two wheel drive version? That would add an extra twist (pun intended) to independent throttle control for rock hopping.


Yes but I would use a lighter narrower less powerful motor in the front that would better fit a fork. 

Now if someone wanted to commission me to build such a bike you could see it a lot sooner

Mark


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

markcycle said:


> For six wheels I can give you a great package price which also includes controllers. If your serious lets talk off line.


Someday. No time or money right now or in the foreseeable future. Still working on my AC Fiero.


----------



## gor (Nov 25, 2009)

markcycle said:


> We have focused of road motorcycles to date but now have decided to begin testing and offer for sale a Dirt bike version of the 600 series motor. This is our 603 model rated at 7 RPM/volt unloaded
> 
> In my evaluation and others who have tested my bikes we are surprised at how little the unsprung weight hurts the handling of the bike. What has to be separated in the handeling evaluation is the centrifugal weight, the weight further out that is multiplied by the spinning mass, This centrifugal weight has a much bigger impact on handling than the mass that is in around the axle.
> ....
> Mark


M. what do you meant by centrifugal weight, spinning mass and unsprung weight - and their affect on dynamics?
thank you
p.s. also concern- would unsuspended (except thin tire) motor stand constant beating (longevity) 
(though impact of hitting potholes at speed on road bike - no picnic either)


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

gor said:


> M. what do you meant by centrifugal weight, spinning mass and unsprung weight - and their affect on dynamics?
> thank you
> p.s. also concern- would unsuspended (except thin tire) motor stand constant beating (longevity)
> (though impact of hitting potholes at speed on rad bike - no picnic either)


The way to demonstrate this effect is to take a bicycle wheel hold it by the axle now without it spinning twist it side to side its easy right now still holding it by the axle have someone spin the wheel now try to move the wheel side to side the gyro effect make controlling the placement of the wheel much harder to control, this is the effect I'm talking about. Put more weight in the rim and this effect gets worse put more weight in the axle and no effect. this is how a Centrifuge works.

We so over sized the bearing in this motor to take the beating I have no worry about the ruggedness of this motor and I guarantee it.

Mark


----------



## 85bmw528edude (Oct 17, 2008)

These still available? I tried contacting Enertrac via the website several times and no response. Let me know>Thanks


----------



## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

85bmw528edude said:


> These still available? I tried contacting Enertrac via the website several times and no response. Let me know>Thanks


We certainly are and I have answered you question check your junk email folder sometimes emails get lost there.

use 
[email protected] 

I usually answer an email within 24 hours

Mark


----------

