# Series DC + Regen....



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

What are thoughts on this? 

http://electricmobile.ru/regenarative-braking-on-series-dc-motor/


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

some info from the web
http://www.cafeelectric.com/curtis/regen/index.html


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> What are thoughts on this?
> 
> http://electricmobile.ru/regenarative-braking-on-series-dc-motor/


It's Greek [I mean Russian] to me..
try http://translate.google.com/transla...e.ru/regenarative-braking-on-series-dc-motor/


Looks like a second controller set up to separately reverse the field currents. Might work. 
Gerhard


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

GerhardRP said:


> It's Greek [I mean Russian] to me...


Hi guys!
To read translated (from Russian) articles in English, please follow this link:
http://electricmobile.ru/?lang=en
Or clik flag image:







on my site


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

What he actually seems to do is separately power the field and armature, instead of actually wiring field and armature in series. He uses a secondary controller (a very simple one could do) I think to achieve a field excitation. Interesting reading!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

jockepocke said:


> What he actually seems to do is separately power the field and armature, instead of actually wiring field and armature in series. He uses a secondary controller (a very simple one could do) I think to achieve a field excitation. Interesting reading!


Not quite...
When motoring you have an ordinary series setup. When braking, the motoring controller is shut off and another controller with similar current capacity but lower power provides a reverse current to the field. The armature current flows through the diode. Looks good to me.
Gerhard


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Not quite...
> When motoring you have an ordinary series setup. When braking, the motoring controller is shut off and another controller with similar current capacity but lower power provides a reverse current to the field. The armature current flows through the diode. Looks good to me.
> Gerhard


Yes, true. What I was trying to say is that during regen, current does not flow in series trough field and armature.


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

There are two diodes, VD1 and Noname (lets say VD2).
I was using regen without VD2, and the max.current I could get back into the battery pack was 50-60A at 110V.
When I've installed VD2, the regen current increased. I could get about 80A at 110V instead of 60A while going down the same hill.
I should point out, that brushes of my motor are in neutral position. If you use shifted brush "timing", I can't tell you the result of using regen with "timed" motor. Some say that collector may burn. I didn't test, cause I don't have motor with shifted brushes.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

electromobile.ru - this is a pretty clever idea. The only problems I can see with it are the obvious ones: no control over the field current means no control over the armature current (ie - as RPM goes up so will braking effect) and you are probably limited to rather low battery voltages. Still, you have essentially turned a series motor into a PMDC motor without having to resort to contactors, a boost converter (or the double right half plane zeroes that normally plague the series generator).

Have you been collecting data on regen current vs. RPM vs. pack voltage for your particular motor? (if not, you should!)


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> electromobile.ru - this is a pretty clever idea. The only problems I can see with it are the obvious ones: no control over the field current means no control over the armature current (ie - as RPM goes up so will braking effect) and you are probably limited to rather low battery voltages. Still, you have essentially turned a series motor into a PMDC motor without having to resort to contactors, a boost converter (or the double right half plane zeroes that normally plague the series generator).
> 
> Have you been collecting data on regen current vs. RPM vs. pack voltage for your particular motor? (if not, you should!)


Watch the video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaUp83v0bd8&feature=player_embedded Some small modifications gives control over the field current, and I would rather say the series motor is turned into a sepex during regen. No permanent magnets.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

jockepocke said:


> Some small modifications gives control over the field current, and I would rather say the series motor is turned into a sepex during regen. No permanent magnets.


The field voltage is fixed so the field current will remain nominally constant which means the flux is nominally constant... just like a permanent magnet motor. Yes, this is technically turning a series motor into a sepex, but if you hold the field current constant in a sepex motor it will then behave like a PM motor, too.

I suspect something got lost in translation between us because I'm right and so are you


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## jockepocke (Nov 24, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The field voltage is fixed so the field current will remain nominally constant which means the flux is nominally constant... just like a permanent magnet motor. Yes, this is technically turning a series motor into a sepex, but if you hold the field current constant in a sepex motor it will then behave like a PM motor, too.
> 
> I suspect something got lost in translation between us because I'm right and so are you



Well, yes according to the drawing, but in the video he is using some kind of heavy duty potentiometer to control field current, that is when it behaves more like a sepex!


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

Guys, guys! Stop your ideas, please.
I use spec.MC that drives HighFreq. 1kW transformer via IGBT transistor. With the help of tiny potentiometer (a red tiny cylinder on gear stick) I regulate the exciting current of the Field. So, whatever motor rpm's, I can regulate regen power with the help of the Field current. You should understand, that series DC motor is reversible device. I mean it can generate power, like SepEx motor. Current and winding counts play the main role here. Lets say, SepEx motor has for ex. has a Field with 200 wire loops and 1Amp. Series motor may have 1 loop and 200 Amper. The magnetic strength of each Field will be the same.
The main idea of my regen device was to eliminate the need to change traction schematic of ordinary pwm-controller&series motor.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

electricmobile.ru said:


> Guys, guys! Stop your ideas, please.


You know, there is a chance that our ideas will enhance your device. [A lovely solution IMHO.]
My approach to regen has always been to have a pressure sensitive resistor on the brake pedal...increasing pressure = greater regen. When you need greater braking than be provided electrically, the regular brakes come on without any need to think, much greater pressure = mechanical brakes. Any driver can do it without instruction = safety.
Gerhard


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, at low speed (or motor rpm) regen is imposible with my device. It used when the vehicle speed and as a result the kinetick energy is high enough to get 1-8 kW of energy back into battery. That happens when you running down the hill or decelerating. You would waste that energy into pads' heat, at usual circumstances. And this approach helps to save some % of golden EV energy  .
I am going to test my device on client's Warp11 direct shaft. Hardly hoping to get reasonable results, but I have to try.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Do you run a neutrally timed motor? If not have you noticed any arcing or excessive brush wear when regening?


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

peggus said:


> Do you run a neutrally timed motor? If not have you noticed any arcing or excessive brush wear when regening?


 Yes, I use neutral timed series motor. I didn't try to shift the brushes timing. It is not necessary on my motor at current voltage level (110V).


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

HMMM.. I might be interested in this. Did you end up having success with the 11 inch motor? Do you excite the fields with full pack voltage? How much amperage do the fields usually use?


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

Inframan said:


> HMMM.. I might be interested in this. Did you end up having success with the 11 inch motor? Do you excite the fields with full pack voltage? How much amperage do the fields usually use?


I am currently on installation process. Workshop guys had broken regen resistor regulator. The problem also is that I am from one region (its like states in USA) and client is from the capital of Ukraine. The process is too slow, but I hope it is going to finish. Tomorow I am going to Kiev, to repeair the broken regulator and to test&film regen by myself. I will report as soon as I can.
Thanks for interest, Inframan. I relied some hopes on this device, but only few guys are interested in it. I don't know why.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Electricmobile

_but only few guys are interested in it. I don't know why_

I think its because it requires a neutrally timed motor - most of us with DC have advanced timing to cope with increased speed and voltage


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

And that it does not do regen at slow speeds. That is the biggest killer of the design. Folks with lower voltage systems like 96 or less would be able to utilize it but not to a stop. Darn. If it allowed me to actually stop the car then I'd be real super interested. As it is I am still a bit interested. Waiting for the film. 

Since I have interpole motors I can run neutral time even at 120 volts. That will be my running voltage. 

Pete


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

Hmmm... why exactly does the motor have to be nuetrally timed? and why does a motor have to be advanced to run high voltages? So this device does not work with higher voltages? and is it pack voltage running through the 1kw transformer to energize the fields?


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

I am quite sure it will run at higher voltages but you get arcing on the commutator at high rpms with a neutral timed motor. To offset that you'd need to advance the motor. Then the problem is you get arching across the commutator when you set the motor for regen when advanced. So to get the best of both you need a neutral timed motor. That limits your voltage. If you have a motor like a kostov that is neutral timed but has interpoles you can have higher running voltages than other motors that don't have interpoles. Some motors are better suited for things like this when it comes to doing regen with a Series Motor. History has proven that Series Motors don't do so well. Hard to control arching. 

Pete 

There is enough information out there to educate yourself on the issue. 
I have two 11" Kostov motors with interpoles.


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

Electricmobile have you tried advanced timing at all? Is the 11 inch you are working on advanced?


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

One question though!

How much current do you use to induce the field to be able to get the 80A of regen to put back into the Pack. And where is that current taken from ?

I can see one point if the current would flow in series backward into the pack, but if you use 50a to get the field to generate 80a from the armature then there is not much gained.

As you state the main difference from a Sepex is that it uses more turns to create the same fieldstrength with less current. That is pretty important here. For example in my car the controller uses 10A in the field to regen 180a at high speeds. 180a is the max that is can regen. 
But the net current sent back to the battery is the about 170a.......

How does your numbers look ?

Regards
/Per


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

I use neutrally timed WARP11. The experiment failed. Not enough current in Field circuit due to long wires.

I am powering stator with 200A 3V (600W). And can get max.8kW into battery, if motor rpm's enough to overcome battery voltage. 

To fully stop the vehicle I think it is necessary to use little generator with electromagnetic clutch. Otherwise, with series DC motor we shall waste kWs to excite stator(Field) and get only watts from rotor(Armature), at low rpm.


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

What voltage were you running with the warp 11? So if I run 144 volts regen will zorch my commutator?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2011)

Inframan said:


> What voltage were you running with the warp 11? So if I run 144 volts regen will zorch my commutator?


You'd more than likely zorch your motor at 144 volts running neutrally timed even without using regen. Getting into high volts requires advancing brushes. The Kostov with interpoles could handle that better but even at those high voltages and neutral timed you could run into trouble. 

The biggest problem using a series motor (interpoles or not) is the need to advance the brushes with high voltages for use in a vehicle. At low voltages and low speeds it is quite possible to regen both series and sepex. Voltages like you see in industrial carts and speeds under 20 mph. 

This is one reason you don't see much with high voltage sepex motors either. Same problem with brushes too. Easier to do regen but you still have the mechanical commutator with brush set. Just the nature of the beast. Want regen bad enough, install AC instead.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The biggest problem using a series motor (interpoles or not) is the need to advance the brushes with high voltages for use in a vehicle.


Or use a motor with interpoles...


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Qer said:


> Or use a motor with interpoles...


Yes interpoles help but only to a point. Much better than just straight series. Less need to advance with interpoles. 

One reason I have two of them. One is for the Bus. One is for Buggy or another possible Ghia I am looking at getting. 

GE motor, not sure yet what I am going to do with that one. 

Pete


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

Inframan said:


> What voltage were you running with the warp 11? So if I run 144 volts regen will zorch my commutator?


144V.
It strange that Netgain didn't tell anything about advancing the brushes.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

You sure your motor is neutral timed? Many of the Netgain motors are advanced already. Netgain motors are built and ready for automobile use. Fork lift motors are not. My Kostov is Neutral timed but has interpoles. I can advance it too if I choose. My GE is neutral timed and has no provision for advancing the brushes. 120 volts would be the most I'd want to put to that motor but it has torque out the wazoo for a 9" motor. It will do 5500 rpm. 

How did you check to see if your motor was advanced or neutral timed?


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

gottdi said:


> You sure your motor is neutral timed? Many of the Netgain motors are advanced already. Netgain motors are built and ready for automobile use. Fork lift motors are not. My Kostov is Neutral timed but has interpoles. I can advance it too if I choose. My GE is neutral timed and has no provision for advancing the brushes. 120 volts would be the most I'd want to put to that motor but it has torque out the wazoo for a 9" motor. It will do 5500 rpm.
> 
> How did you check to see if your motor was advanced or neutral timed?


Actually, I did not check Warp timing. The problem is that other servicemen were installing the motor. I made wiring and connection job later.
What I really know is that my old Kostov 7.5kW is neutral timed. It is made for 72V, but I use it with 110V during 20 000km, and no problem till today.


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## Jerry Liebler (Feb 1, 2011)

Doesn't the Kelly HSR series of controller accomplish this all in one package?
Regards
Jerry


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Jerry Liebler said:


> Doesn't the Kelly HSR series of controller accomplish this all in one package?
> Regards
> Jerry


Accomplish what? Refresh the memory please.


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## Jerry Liebler (Feb 1, 2011)

Regen with a series motor.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Jerry Liebler said:


> Regen with a series motor.



Yes you can with the right motors and controllers. Kelly controllers for series motors do not provide regen.


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Yes you can with the right motors and controllers. Kelly controllers for series motors do not provide regen.


Then why does their website say series motor controller with regen?http://kellycontroller.com/hsr14701700a144vseries-with-regen-p-896.html
It has a fourth lug too most series motor controllers just have three. I wonder if anyone has tried it?


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Well how about that, they do. Might be something to check out for my Kostov Series with interpoles. If my current Kelly HP controller works well I will see if I can get one with regen to try out. That would be way cool. 

Pete


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## Inframan (Jan 30, 2011)

So electricmoblie any more progress on your regen module?


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## electricmobile.ru (Jan 14, 2011)

Inframan said:


> So electricmoblie any more progress on your regen module?


Not yet. Have to work on main job - repair gasoline vehicles' electronics. Also it is cold in Ukraine - about -10..-15C. So I am waiting for good weather


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Did anyone test this guys device out?

Or try one of these things?

http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/co-hsr14501.htm

I am looking at adding regen to a 48v/96v ev with a hybrid battery pack, not sure what all is needed to get it working though.

Thanx


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

If you use REGEN on the Series DC motor be sure it is neutral timed and do not turn on very much regen. I had a Kelly SepEx Regen controller and used Regen and when turned up past 80% it toasted the controller like right quick. It is a nice paper weight right now. The DC motor can generate a serious amount of amperage so you need to keep it turned down.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Series DC + Regen - Controller?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

http://kellycontroller.com/Motor-Controller-DC.php

Well for PM brushed motors.


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