# Cadillac Eldorado



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The theme of this conversion is an upper end EV that has lots of power, speed, and range and still feels like a Cadillac. I wish for cruise, air conditioning and all the other original features that it came with, including not needing to shift gears manually. I put an inquiry thread on here inquiring about direct drive a few months ago, but am not so sure this would really be such a good idea.

I have learned so much doing the conversion on "The Metro" and the "95 metro lithium conversion" but I still do not know it all. On my first conversion, I was ordering parts before I had a firm enough grasp on the big picture (although she seems to be a pretty slick ride), but on this one I would like to have it figured out first before I order. I would value any input on this from this community, be it criticism, advice, suggestions, or whatever. 

The proposed conversion so far is a big pack of 100+ calb 180ah cells, somewhere a little over 60 kwh and around 350 volts. These would power the dual kostov 11's via a 1400 amp soliton. The Dual 11's will be stuffed into the tunnel (lotsa fab work here) and mate to a powerglide which will have the tailshaft pointing forward and power an inverted differential that is centered between the front wheels. For charging, I am interested in the emw charger that we read about here, and pre assembled. Not sure yet if I will use hot water or ceramic heat yet, since I only have experience with ceramic elements (which seem to kick ass). I am not experienced with the idle circuit of the soliton, but it sounds like it could really simplify the power steering, ac, and alternator (?) systems. I am open to suggestions on the BMS. "The Metro" that I built is equipped with the orion, and I am very excited about this piece of equipment and the Torque app. My 95 metro lithium upgrade is heavily underway, but not yet on the road, so I do not know how the cell log 8 monitoring system that I am installing is going to work out yet. The Elithion sytem is of interest as well. Instrumentation for me is critical for me, so this may dictate which bms system is best.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am looking for a powerglide, and there seem to be a lot of options. Anybody here really knowledgeable on these? I am thinking it will be an ICE version since I am planning to use the solitons idle function. This still leaves a lot of variabls... how many speeds, what valve body, shift pattern, etc...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, not a lot of ideas from the community. This is ok. Yet another direction on this build... Hpevs has the new siamese 35 out now, and I went ahead and ordered one withe 144 volt controllers. I have my eyes on calb 180 or tornado 200 cells configured to 48 pairs of cells, 96 total. (2p48s?) The tornado 200ah cells advertise 3c/7c, but the calbs advertise only 2c, so I am still debating. I do like that the calbs are easier to get, but 180ah/2c does not sound as good as the tornado 3c/200ah. The last two packs of tornados were a pain to import... Anyways, what is locked in at this point is that I will run hpevs siamese 35 motors @ 153.5 volts. I have questions about running the ac, power steering, and alternator off of a separate motor. I have been looking through grainger for a dc motor that will have enough power to run all of these components and run off of 153 volts dc, but it seems that most of the motors jump from 90v to 180v. If anybody has input, I would love to hear it. If not, you can come back here in the future and see what I came up with.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some parts in today for this thing. Hpevs siamese 35s... 144 volts, two controllers.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Lots going on here! Not sure where to start

There a a couple of very detailed threads by mizlplix on powerglides. He's your man.

Calb gray series can easily do 12C, or 5C continuous. Overkill for a 500 amp controller.

I would question the sensibility of a 60 kWh pack from LifeP04. A 20 kWh pack is decent and a 30 kWh is large. 60 kWh sounds like a bus. It would be a lot of weight / volume to shove into a car - would a 80 to 100 mile range be sufficient instead? Have you looked at the diminishing returns using 100 Wh/mile per 1000 pounds rule of thumb?

Why do you need to invert the differential?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The build ideas have narrowed down quite a bit now that it is torn down and all the ICE stuff is out. It makes a lot more sense now. It looks like the twin motors (run by two 500 amp controllers) can fit into the tunnel, and an powerglide without a bell housing could fit in there as well. It won't take a lot to just convert to RWD and find a regular axle and dif housing. As for range, I am looking for more than 100 miles, and a pack that does not sag as much. This thing will be around 4500 lbs, so its going to need a bunch of battery. I have noticed that tesla uses 60 and 85 kwh packs, and I am guessing that it is because the model s is a big heavy car, like this one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

What year Caddy is it? I like this idea, especially with the siamesed AC 35s. You're getting into something I have put some thought into - sound, resonance, and feel, of EV components in a higher-end EV conversion/build. I pay a lot of attention to what the major manufacturers do to tune in the brand identity that we take for granted. Things like the frequency at which components resonate, and feel and sound of controls, are things they spend millions of dollars developing so that you recognize and develop an affinity for their brand. EVs present a peculiar challenge with this because a lot of things are masked in the sound and feel of a running ICE. I started paying attention to it immediately after coming to this site and watching videos of EVs. The sound of the controls stuck out to me, because I heard things I don't hear in ICE vehicles - like the end of the click as a switch engages. It's where some manufacturers engineer a smooth stop/buffer at the end of the travel, and some don't because the engine masks it. The click is purposed tactile feedback to make you aware of what you did, the rest is usually purposed engineering to create brand identity/meet budgets. Typically, GM's bean counters never allowed that finishing touch. I rode in a friend's EV and noticed quite a bit that wasn't apparent in the videos. I worked on this with my motorcycle, so that there isn't anything to notice beyond the click of the contactor, and sound of the chain, at low speeds. People comment on how eery it is that I am powered up and moving with almost *no* sound; no exhaust, no creaking, no squeaking, etc.

Sorry to babble. My point is luxury cars, by nature, carry this impression of quality and depending on what year Caddy you're using, I will be interested to see how it is without the ICE. GM has had serious issues with squeaky, rattling, interiors in the past (I drive a 96 Saturn, that manages to squeak and rattle over the unbalanced, noisy, ICE).

That's why I think your choice of motors and transmission is good - it should give the impression of quality at lower speeds, until road noise can enter the picture. I love brushed DC, but that old familiar whine is hard to mask. My bike is PM (still brushed though), and is very quiet - I have never heard the motor over the chain and tires, but also haven't turned higher RPMs yet. I am going AC with it, so the higher RPMs will have that beautiful high-pitch scream.

Sorry for babbling, again...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Todd, I am glad to have you view this build since you are able to understand practicality and function of a build while keeping the theme of a vehicle in mind as well. The theme part of it is what few people are able to process, and is often confused with the function of the the vehicle since they are in fact closely related. You are quite right that I am after a luxury EV that emulates what a Cadillac should be. I DO notice all of the sounds that show up without the ICE engine noise, and I plan to add my touches to keep this thing classy. One of the challenges in this 94 Eldorado is that GM did not do a fine job during these years to build an exquisite Cadillac, so there will be a lot of stuff that I will need to do to bring this thing up to standard, as well as doing the meat and potatoes EV conversion. I have another standard that I like to implement in my builds as well, and that is making it easy to work on. Anyway, thanks for checking it out. The build plans have changed from day to day with wild variations going through my head, but it is starting to come together.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Todd, I am glad to have you view this build since you are able to understand practicality and function of a build while keeping the theme of a vehicle in mind as well. The theme part of it is what few people are able to process, and is often confused with the function of the the vehicle since they are in fact closely related. You are quite right that I am after a luxury EV that emulates what a Cadillac should be. I DO notice all of the sounds that show up without the ICE engine noise, and I plan to add my touches to keep this thing classy. One of the challenges in this 94 Eldorado is that GM did not do a fine job during these years to build an exquisite Cadillac, so there will be a lot of stuff that I will need to do to bring this thing up to standard, as well as doing the meat and potatoes EV conversion. I have another standard that I like to implement in my builds as well, and that is making it easy to work on. Anyway, thanks for checking it out. The build plans have changed from day to day with wild variations going through my head, but it is starting to come together.


I've been subscribed since the first post.  I'll be watching and enjoying. 

Ahh, '94 - some of GM's not-so-glorious years. I've had quite a few. I'm back to GM after a decade of Honda Accords and, in spite of its flaws, I actually love my little Saturn. By comparison, its "soul" hasn't been refined and engineered out of it. With a little work the Cadillac's natural character should be a really nice compliment to the electric drive.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

evmetro said:


> I have noticed that tesla uses 60 and 85 kwh packs, and I am guessing that it is because the model s is a big heavy car, like this one.


They use a different chemistry that is more energy dense, less power density, less cycle life, and less $ per watt hour.

So that means they are forces to use large packs.

If you are building a LiFeP04 battery pack (which is the default DIY standard), they are less energy dense, more power density, much much more cycle life, and more expensive. They are also safer.

The sweet range works out to around 80 miles. I don;t see much point in aiming for more than 120 miles. The car driving dynamics would be impacted by the extra weight. 

Model S is designed to be electric, not the same as a ICE car stuffed with batteries where you can fit them. The Model S is really only heavy because of the batteries, the car itself is made out of aluminium. The frame is relatively light. The design lets them have a skewed battery weight to frame weight ratio that we can;t use in a ICE conversion.

I don't think 60 kWh is in the realms of possible or even desired when you work out the implications.

Happy to be proved wrong.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Drgrieve, thanks so much for the input. I have the skills to make the pack fit, and the ability to modify the suspension, but I am really interested in what you were saying about the "sweet" spot. Even though I am no longer a new EV builder, I still have much to learn. How is 80 miles the sweet spot?


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

No worries,

For a lot of builds 80 miles, with the large format LiFeP04 batteries seems to work out to be a nice build.

Weight is similar to original (maybe +100 pounds no biggie) and by utilizing wheel well space and engine bay, no impact to luggage carry capacity.

Of course not all cars fit this profile, but it is amazing to see how accurate that is. Same with the 1000 pounds for 100 wh/mile rule of thumb.

As you place more batteries you get a diminishing return as your wh/mile goes up. You start to loose luggage capacity and placing stuff in hard to reach spots impacting maintainability.

Too much battery weight causes bad handling performance and greater load on brakes, dynamic steering, suspension.

There are other batteries, A123, and Enerdel. A123 was quite popular 6 - 12 months ago, but the pack building task has left many disappointed with build issues and these where very smart builders. 

As pouch cells the Enerdel may have same issues.

But they have improved energy and volume density over LiFeP04. They are more expensive - but would make a bigger pack more practical. But with the money invested in a 60 kWh you may as well get a Model S - unless its the building of not the end goal you want.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

It has been awhile since I have posted anything on this, I have been busy finishing other builds. Here is a pic of the twin AC 35 motors mounted to a powerglide. I went ahead and made a jig for my transmission jack since this combo weighs quite a bit. I built the jig so that I can still pull the powerglide off the motor and the motor is the only thing attached to the jack.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The pack is on the slow boat from China right now. 48 Tornado 300ah cells. I am really happy with the last round of Tornado cells that I got, so no need to try anything else. I did have a bad cell in one of the two packs that I got from them, but they made it right. They shipped a replacement cell from China to my door, all expenses covered, no BS. Anyway, 46,080 WH, 153.6 volts is the pack, and of course this will be managed with the usual Orion BMS. I have developed a close relationship with the Orion, and I can get in any of the conversions with an IPad or Android and all of the cars data is presented the same way as the others are. Nice to take a tablet or pad from vehicle to vehicle...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a pic of the donor chassis.










Interior is all gutted out and ready.










The Northstar motor and its front wheel drive transmission is out of the way. There is still a lot of stuff that I am eager to remove, and there is an incredible amount of black boxes that will go too. Breath taking amounts of stuff that won't be used.


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## hmincr (Jan 20, 2012)

WOW. You certainly do get deep into your projects. 

I will be watching for all updates. I admire how you strive to get everything as perfect as possible.



Harold


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

hmincr said:


> WOW. You certainly do get deep into your projects.
> 
> I will be watching for all updates. I admire how you strive to get everything as perfect as possible.
> 
> ...


 Yea, I have to go pretty deep on this one. Although it is not set in stone, the double AC 35 and Power Glide are to be mounted in the tunnel right there between the seats. This time around, I have all of my circuits on paper, and they are tried and true. I know in advance where to locate components, and why. I have a feeling this thing will turn out like a Cadillac...


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## johnjcbs (Oct 10, 2012)

What will you be using for a rear differential?


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

awesome! It's kind of amazing to me how similar the empty engine compartment looks to my VW. Is the radiator still in? if so what do you have planned for it? 
re: power steering, maybe see if any similar models came in non-powered? That sounds kinda crazy, but who knows, it could be a temporary solution?
*edit* well... no Eldorado ever came with manual, so probably a terrible suggestion, lol. and not in style with the cars long luxurious history.

josh


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

geez 46 x 300 ah  that's a lot of power lol ... and a lot of money lol . I was expecting an suv when you said Cadillac with that many batteries . 

nice setup though on the powerglide and dual motors  ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

johnjcbs said:


> What will you be using for a rear differential?


The rear diff is still kind of open, but the shop next door to me has a mid 1990s firebird with a v6/6 speed. He bought it for the motor and transmission, but says I can have the rear end out of it. I see that it has a 5 lug pattern, but I still need to verify that it is the correct 5 lug pattern and that the wheel mounting surfaces are the right distance apart. If those two things check out, it will be a go. I think those have something like a 3:1 ratio, so I will need to come up with something around 5:1 to go with the power glide.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> geez 46 x 300 ah  that's a lot of power lol ... and a lot of money lol . I was expecting an suv when you said Cadillac with that many batteries .
> 
> nice setup though on the powerglide and dual motors  ...


The 48 300ah cells is a pretty large pack in the DIY community, but still not as big as I would like. I have a pretty big vision on this build, but am still trying to keep it realistic. I do not know the completed weight yet, but am aiming for 4500 pounds. The usable watt hours should be 36864 for this 46080 WH pack, so I am aiming for 80 miles range at 450 WH per mile that another member mentioned earlier in this thread. I think he referred to it as the "sweet spot".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> The rear diff is still kind of open, but the shop next door to me has a mid 1990s firebird with a v6/6 speed. He bought it for the motor and transmission, but says I can have the rear end out of it. I see that it has a 5 lug pattern, but I still need to verify that it is the correct 5 lug pattern and that the wheel mounting surfaces are the right distance apart. If those two things check out, it will be a go. I think those have something like a 3:1 ratio, so I will need to come up with something around 5:1 to go with the power glide.


That almost certainly won't be the same. The Caddy uses the FWD GM big pattern of 5 x 115mm. The 'bird uses the small GM RWD pattern of 5 x 4.75". The 'bird should have a 7.5" rear end, same as I have in the Inhaler - just for setup, because that is pretty weak rear end. For what it costs to upgrade them to handle more power you can just purchase a better one. Ford 8.8 or 9" is the standard by which most (passenger cars rear ends) are judged (for power handling).

In that Caddy, for the best ride and handling setup, I would follow John Metric's lead and get a whole IRS setup, with subframe, from a Lincoln Mark (VIII or IX I think, check his thread).


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks Todd for the input. I will look into that Lincoln set up. I had considered the Corvette rear end, but those are a little bit on the exotic side. The Ford 9 seems to be the benchmark. What I would really like is a strong enough rear end that I could get from Pick n Pull on the cheap. It's not just the price, but rather the principle. One of the themes that I would like to implement in this build is having it be easy to work on, and parts that are easy to come by. Ford 9 parts and Pick n Pull parts fit the bill quite well. The IRS may compromise this concept a little, but offer a nicer overall build.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I evaluated all the options, and agree that the IRS from the Lincoln is a fantastic idea I went to Pick n Pull and shopped all the rear ends that I could find, and the one from the Lincoln Mark 8 looked the most appropriate. Wheel mount surface to wheel mount surface was a dead on match, and the four mounting points for the IRS were in the same ball park as the ones on the IRS that comes on the Cadillac. Obviously the new mount bolt locations will need to be fabbed in but it looks pretty basic. The Lincolns come with air bags instead of the coils that are seen here, but two of the Lincolns had this aftermarket conversion from air to coils, and the third Lincoln had a ripped bag. I made sure to harvest the air and electrical fittings in case I want to put the stock air bags back on. The only things that I can see that need to be addressed are the gearing ratio and the bolt pattern.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Awesome!  Thank John Metric for that tip...



evmetro said:


> ... The only things that I can see that need to be addressed are the gearing ratio and the bolt pattern...


Read end gears ratios, from 3.08 to 5.71: http://www.summitracing.com/search/.../ring-and-pinion-gears/axle-model/ford-8-8-in

A competent machine shop could re-drill your hubs and rotors to match the Caddy's pattern.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

First order of business was to get the IRS onto a jig that fits the transmission jack.










Here is the old rear suspension










The new one is very different









This is not a bolt and ride modification. Some assembly required.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Very nice, and glad to see you bit the bullet on the Lincoln IRS. I love what you're goals are for this project, and that will definitely keep them on track.

Popcorn popped, Pepsi on tap...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Had to remove quite a bit of the original chassis to have this IRS fit exactly right.










Here is a view looking straight up from the ground. There is not much holding the back of the car together right now. Pretty flexible, and I can lift the back of the car off of the back two lift pads by hand. If the Northstar was still in there, it would take a nose dive off of the front of the lift for sure


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The cradle is tacked into place where it needs to be with some scraps of steel. Transmission jack is pulled out of the way. Now to fab the four mounts and structural integrity.










Shot of one of the front mounts. 










Here is the back side where it is tacked up with some scrap metal to hold it while the real mount is built.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking good

I like those mounts - nice and far apart so the loads are reduced


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is what we have in the trunk. Much stuff to be done.










3 inch by 1/8 box tubing is used to make the actual frame rails. There is a lot of other sheet metal work do be done to successfully integrate these rails into the uni body structure, but we need strong frame rails first.










Here is a shot from below of how the 3" box tubing fits down inside the existing rails. The box tubing had to be modified a little to fit down into the existing frame rails since they taper from 3' down to about 2.75" at the bottom.










Here is one of the rear mounts in place.










My local metal supplier had stacks of these circles in various thicknesses and diameters. Saves wear and tear on the hole saws... I am using 4" diameter by 3/16' for the suspension cradle mounts and 6" for the coil perches.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice work, as always - looking good!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some more done on this one. Here are the frame rails with cups for the coil springs and mounts for the suspension cradle.










Here are the rails back into the car, some cross bracing tacked in place.










These rails are not coming back out now. No turning back..


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Big thumbs-up! Looks very nice.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is one of the front mounts for the original independent suspension cradle mounts.










Obviously, that mount will never work, so here it is cut off.










Here is the new mount tacked in place, ready to weld. New mounts like this are not available at the local auto parts stores...


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Now, *THAT* is_ art_.

Eric


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Most of the welding is done on this mount. Once the other front mount is done, the cradle can come back out and the rest of the fab work and sheet metal work can be done.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Looks like a combination of MIG welding and TIG welding, very cleanly done!
Which do you prefer, primarily?

At first I was under the impression that you were going to leave the car front wheel drive, but I like how you have changed the Eldo's setup. Are you thinking of going with an A/C from Vintageair or cabbing your own w/ ceramic heaters & whatnot?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> Looks like a combination of MIG welding and TIG welding, very cleanly done!
> Which do you prefer, primarily?
> 
> At first I was under the impression that you were going to leave the car front wheel drive, but I like how you have changed the Eldo's setup. Are you thinking of going with an A/C from Vintageair or cabbing your own w/ ceramic heaters & whatnot?


All the fab work so far has been done with two mig welders, miller 211 and miller 252. That last mount was done with the 211. 

As for the climate controls, I am still researching, but am very interested in peltier elements, water blocks, and heat exchangers. I am concerned about their efficiency, but am fascinated with them anyway.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Some finishing touches on the RH forward mount. Inboard and out board gussets. That diagonal cut on the gusset follows the line of the original frame rail.










I am not sure what you call these mount things, but I pulled them off the Lincoln with the rear end, and I see them on front and rear cradles on all makes and models. They did not fit anywhere on the Cadillac, so they are modified to work. You can see the piece in front of the one that is still unmodified that was cut out so that the mount would be flat.










Here is the modified mount. Flat and shortened, bolted to the frame rail just like the Lincoln.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Evmetro your workmanship is amazing sir! Very well done. This is no doubt going to be a fantastic vehicle!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> ...I am not sure what you call these mount things...


They appear to be torque straps, to prevent movement horizontally.

Nice work - I want a ride when it's done!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

OK, all four cradle mounts are welded in, so no more need to have the cradle in there. Having the cradle out of the way allows access to complete the rest of the surgery. Below is a pic of the completed forward mount,which was much more complicated than the rear cradle mounts were...










The next step is integrating the new frame rails with the factory rails. This pic shows the excessive gap between the fabbed rails and the factory ones.










Here is the same mount on the other side as a comparison. The factory rail was squeezed together with a bunch of large vice grips until it was flush with the new rail, and then it was welded under pressure, then the vice grips removed. In collision repair, welding under pressure is not appropriate, but in this case there is a lot of other structural stuff that will be done to "lock it in", so it will be fine.










Here is a pic from further back of the passenger side frame rail integration.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Just got the drive shaft in. The 8.8 Ford diff has a flange style yoke, but it made more sense to just get a yoke that holds a 1350 series universal joint since I needed to get a yoke for the powerglide anyway. The transmission yoke and differential yokes will be linked together with the universal joint. Drive shafts don't get much shorter than this. Both yokes are made by Strange Engineering and are stamped USA, and the U joint is a Spicer 1350.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Just got a pair of these in too.










These are double adjustable. The "C" knob is to adjust the compression, and the "R" knob is to adjust the rebound. Most double adjustable shocks come with hiem joints, but I was worried about the extra road noise that will come through a metal joint, these have poly bushings. I may still need to rustle up some rubber bushings if these radiate any road noise.










The fun part will be mounting these to the car. Top mounting perches will need to be fabbed in...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice! 

Top notch stuff - it outta ride like a Cadillac.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The batteries are finally here. They take awhile to get across the ocean, and then a whole lot longer once they arrive in the USA. Anyways, they have cleared customs and all the red tape and are now ready to be checked and installed. This Eldorado gets 48 Tornado cells, 300 ah. The 300 AH model is the big one in the pic, and then the next biggest is the 100 AH that I am putting in a different build. The next smaller is a 50 AH cell, there are four of these for the aux battery in this Eldorado. I got those tiny 30AH cells for the aux batteries in the Metro conversions.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a preview of the motor, transmission, differential, and suspension set up.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Beutiful stuff ... Im still amazed at how you finance these insane beutiful builds ... Your either rich or have a rich wife lol 

Nice work seriously


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> Beutiful stuff ... Im still amazed at how you finance these insane beutiful builds ... Your either rich or have a rich wife lol
> 
> Nice work seriously


It helps to shop at pick n pull whenever possible, and never buy gasoline... hopefully there will be a return on the investment if the world of DIY conversions is revolutionized. I think we will see the optimum EV somewhere between a backyard mechanic conversion and an EV in theory on an engineer's computer. I am enjoying watching your build, so keep up the great work!


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Your build is moving along 20 x faster than mine and it has a lot more work lol ... Ill give myself credit i know the three kids under three is a good valid reason lol ... 

My emw charger build is taking up to much of my time though  im actually contemplating getting a cheap 1500 watt charger to finish my build and then focus on finishing my charger .... Time will tell ... 


I really like your build though . About your tornado batteries who did you contact to do your transaction ? How much did the brokerage and inport fees run you up ? Pm me if you prefer im looking into them seriously ...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> Your build is moving along 20 x faster than mine and it has a lot more work lol ... Ill give myself credit i know the three kids under three is a good valid reason lol ...
> 
> My emw charger build is taking up to much of my time though  im actually contemplating getting a cheap 1500 watt charger to finish my build and then focus on finishing my charger .... Time will tell ...
> 
> ...


Hats off to you for building your own EMW. I think the EMW makes a lot of sense when you look at cost and performance plus the open source thing. I will dig up some data on the Tornado cells. 

Three kids under three? Congrats! looks like you have your hands full.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey EVMetro 
Have you considered how you will accommodate the flex of the diff in its mounts if it is directly hooked up to the trans like that? What mount arrangement have you got planned for the motor? Looking really good so far BTW


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey EVMetro
> Have you considered how you will accommodate the flex of the diff in its mounts if it is directly hooked up to the trans like that? What mount arrangement have you got planned for the motor? Looking really good so far BTW


 A valid point. If the space is there the motor/tranny could be moved forward 12" and a small jack shaft used to over come this. Or does EVMetro have a simpler method?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Been scratching my head on this one. I picked up a 20 foot stick of DOM tubing today to make the motor and transmission cradle, and have been planning to have the cradle rigid mounted to the suspension cradle, but rubber mounted to the chassis. The motor and transmission would be rubber mounted into its cradle. Basically, the motor cradle and the suspension cradle would serve as a single rigid cradle, with the the differential, tranny, and motor all rubber mounted in the cradle. I can see the potential for wobble here, so I am open to any suggestions.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

I gave you 5 stars cause you went AC.  
Impressive design power here, good to see people bringing skill to the table


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey EVMetro
> Have you considered how you will accommodate the flex of the diff in its mounts if it is directly hooked up to the trans like that? What mount arrangement have you got planned for the motor? Looking really good so far BTW





poprock1 said:


> A valid point. If the space is there the motor/tranny could be moved forward 12" and a small jack shaft used to over come this. Or does EVMetro have a simpler method?





evmetro said:


> Been scratching my head on this one. I picked up a 20 foot stick of DOM tubing today to make the motor and transmission cradle, and have been planning to have the cradle rigid mounted to the suspension cradle, but rubber mounted to the chassis. The motor and transmission would be rubber mounted into its cradle. Basically, the motor cradle and the suspension cradle would serve as a single rigid cradle, with the the differential, tranny, and motor all rubber mounted in the cradle. I can see the potential for wobble here, so I am open to any suggestions.


I considered coupling the motor directly to the diff with one u-joint, just like that, in the Inhaler, when I was working on a mid-engine plan for it. I got the same concerns from some of the guys here.

I still don't really see that setup as a problem. The harmonics and vibration issues that people think of with u-joints are typically from having two u-joints, on a shaft, out of phase. Also, with an electric motor, you won't be introducing the pounding of the ICE power cycles into the drivetrain.

All that being said, I would solid mount the motor, transmission, and diff together onto a sub-frame. they should be positively locked together. Then, you can rubber mount that assembly to the suspension cradle, if you want to be certain no NVH will transmit to the body. The CV joints will take care of any movement of that assembly in the suspension cradle, just as they would with the ICE drivetrain.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks Ripperton, i have a feeling that AC is going to work out quite well on this build.

Todds, I have been thinking about this driveline thing all evening. I have been planning to leave enough room in the motor cradle to accommodate future design changes such as a longer or wider motor, so I might roll the dice on rubber mounting everything and then road testing it to see how it works and then taking it from there. I am considering linking the two cradles together with mating bolt flanges, so if I need to redesign the motor cradle it would not be much trouble to just pull the motor cradle and do what needs to be done.


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

What are your attachment point options on the motor and trans? What do the frame rails look like and can the motor/trans be bolted to the frame rails with crossmembers?

Example:










Browse through here for some ideas:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gm+...q5qAGDjYCICg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1918&bih=959


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

Maybe use a "motor plate" for spanning the front of the motor to the frame rails?


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey EVMetro
> Have you considered how you will accommodate the flex of the diff in its mounts if it is directly hooked up to the trans like that? What mount arrangement have you got planned for the motor? Looking really good so far BTW


Perhaps a combination of tying in the motor mount to the rear differential carrier and front mounting with vibration dampeners will allow the motor to move somewhat with the diff, thus eliminating flex between the two?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

I use to have a tuned tt 300zx i had replaced the rear subframe bushing with stiff aluminium ones ... Although it looked cool and was fun being stiffer i passed two rear differentials the year after that  hadnt broken one in 3 before that .... 

Stiffer tends to be hard on parts even though the diff still had rubber bushings ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

crackerjackz said:


> I use to have a tuned tt 300zx i had replaced the rear subframe bushing with stiff aluminium ones ... Although it looked cool and was fun being stiffer i passed two rear differentials the year after that  hadnt broken one in 3 before that ....
> 
> Stiffer tends to be hard on parts even though the diff still had rubber bushings ...


That's common. You changed one aspect of a system that was engineered to work together. A lot of times parts like those solid subframe bushings come with a warning that says replace these other parts with solid mounts to avoid damage to...; or as fully engineered kits that replace everything necessary.

I suggested locking the motor, trans, and diff as an assembly because the single universal joint can transmit power at an angle but, similarly, might not tolerate the components trying to move in different planes simultaneously, That movement could be very small, but enough to introduce NVH and/or destroy the bearings over time. Locking them all together makes the system the equivalent of a modern FWD system (motor/trans/diff as a solid unit), leaving the CV joints to handle movement of the unit in the body, and of the suspension - what they were designed to do. The only hurdle evmetro would have to clear is getting the motor/trans and diff aligned before locking them. That's easy because he can make the assembly, tack weld the mounts, test, tweak, etc, until it's smooth as butter...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Todd, EVMetro 
My worries are not NVH but impact shocks stressing that high torque joint, both bump and tractive shocks. 

Imagine, dropping Max torque on a less than smooth road, as the wheels skip their traction changes, they chirp which IA signs of losing then biting back traction. This usually coinsides with a bump. So the joint has a vertical shock load from the bump plus a high torque jolt as resistance eases then suddenly maximises with the change of traction. This is the main reason for a short drive shaft. 

If the diff, trans and motor are rigidly held together it isn't a major problem. Long term use will tell.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Todd, EVMetro
> My worries are not NVH but impact shocks stressing that high torque joint, both bump and tractive shocks.
> 
> Imagine, dropping Max torque on a less than smooth road, as the wheels skip their traction changes, they chirp which IA signs of losing then biting back traction. This usually coinsides with a bump. So the joint has a vertical shock load from the bump plus a high torque jolt as resistance eases then suddenly maximises with the change of traction. This is the main reason for a short drive shaft.
> ...


He is using 1350-series u-joints, the same as drag race and off-roaders us. They can handle any tractive forces that Caddy will throw at them. 

Properly designed, which I have full confidence in evmetro do to, there won't be any bump loading on the u-joint.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

No worries then  just hoping to be helpful.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I will have a question mark in my mind until test driving it, and build in such a way that it is not too difficult to modify it if it needs changes. Definitely a legitimate consideration.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The beginnings of the motor cradle. 










The motor cradle will be joined to the suspension cradle with these bolt flanges so that the motor cradle can be removed as a separate component. There will be other mounts to bolt it to the chassis as well.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Nice bending of the tubes, and great idea with the use of the flanges for making the cradle removable.
I gotta ask: is the yellow tape heat resistant so it can hold the pipes in place while you are tacking them?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> Nice bending of the tubes, and great idea with the use of the flanges for making the cradle removable.
> I gotta ask: is the yellow tape heat resistant so it can hold the pipes in place while you are tacking them?


The yellow tape is common in the auto body industry, and is not heat resistant in any way. It is also not sticky enough to hold metal parts together very well. It was in stock at my shop though...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have no plans on changing to a different motor, but in the event that I change my mind in the future, there is plenty of room here for an 11" motor. There is also nice protection from running over something big enough to harm the motor or transmission.










Lots of side to side clearance too.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got the rotors and hubs back from the machine shop. They had the 5 on 108 pattern for the Lincoln, and I had them drilled for the 5 on 115 pattern to match the front wheels. The studs are about 1/8" closer to the edge, but there is still enough meat left. Now I can use any wheel that fits an Eldorado.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

What have you got for motor cooling ?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> What have you got for motor cooling ?


I do not have anything planned yet for motor cooling, but have a cooling circuit planned for the EMW charger and the pair of 1239 controllers. When I ran a single AC 35 in one of my other builds, the motor never seemed to go up, but the controller temp would if I had my water pump turned off. I suppose that the vented end of the motor is pointing directly into the wind, so there are probably some options available with that. I just don't want to scoop up rocks, bees, and puddles...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

OK, I re thought the drive shaft thing, and went down to my local drive shaft shop and talked to them. A single u joint will only work if the alignment is set at zero and is near perfect. I picked up this frame for a double cardon joint, as well as the second u joint to make the drive shaft shown below. Alignment is still very important since this is not actually a double cardon joint, but this set up will allow a full degree of flex as long as the two shafts are properly centered on each other. This added 3 inches to the total length.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Alignment is still very important since this is not actually a double cardon joint, but this set up will allow a full degree of flex as long as the two shafts are properly centered on each other. This added 3 inches to the total length.


_this is not actually a double cardon joint_

looks like a double cardan joint to me 

You should build in some misalignment to prevent brinelling - normally 5 degrees is recommended

That is you should ensure that the diff and motor output shafts are parallel but offset a bit (about 6mm) to ensure that the needle bearings in the cardan joints move a bit each revolution

Otherwise they fail very fast by "Brinelling" - the needles don't roll enough, that pushes the grease out under the needles and they corrode their way into the housings


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

All four flanges are welded and bolted together. Gussets have been added for a little more support on the middle two where they join the suspension cradle. That coupler is a temporary rigid coupler made out of an old powerglide yoke that has been sawed in half and connected to the old flange style yoke of the differential with a couple pieces of tubing that are pressed together. This temporary solid coupler will stay in place until everything is fabbed and the complete set up with both cradles has been mounted. once all that is done, the double u joint will replace the solid one. (fab jig)


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

I just re-read your thread and am curious about a few things:

- Did you fab the powerglide unit yourself from a pick-n-pull source, and do you have a separate thread on that I missed somewhere? (I have read a few, but did not want to assume anything. I will look again, of course.)

- Why did you select AC over DC? Was it mainly the quiet power? I like that your dual AC35s look like they take up a little less space than a Warp11.

- I may forgo the noise reduction for the lower expense ($2500 motor + $3200 controller = $5700 vs $9100 for Siamese AC35s with controllers). Besides, I already have a line on a warp11 for $2300 including shipping...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> I just re-read your thread and am curious about a few things:
> 
> - Did you fab the powerglide unit yourself from a pick-n-pull source, and do you have a separate thread on that I missed somewhere? (I have read a few, but did not want to assume anything. I will look again, of course.)
> 
> ...


I have done an AC conversion and a DC conversion, and the AC one is simply better. My DC conversion has a 1200 amp Raptor controller and the car is a lightweight Metro, so it is pretty responsive, but far from smooth. This may not be the most reliable way to judge DC, but I have seen how smooth the performance is with the HPEVS system in my AC conversion. I debate the usefulness of regen that is configured for anything other than the drivers impulse, but I do like regen. The other nifty thing with the HPEVS system is that I can link the canbus to the Orion BMS to derate the throttle and regen.


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## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

Vhclbldr said:


> - Did you fab the powerglide unit yourself from a pick-n-pull source, and do you have a separate thread on that I missed somewhere? (I have read a few, but did not want to assume anything. I will look again, of course.)


Here's some auto trans info:

http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Sorry I missed that part. Yea, this is a Kansa City unit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> I have done an AC conversion and a DC conversion, and the AC one is simply better. My DC conversion has a 1200 amp Raptor controller and the car is a lightweight Metro, so it is pretty responsive, but far from smooth. This may not be the most reliable way to judge DC, but I have seen how smooth the performance is with the HPEVS system in my AC conversion. I debate the usefulness of regen that is configured for anything other than the drivers impulse, but I do like regen. The other nifty thing with the HPEVS system is that I can link the canbus to the Orion BMS to derate the throttle and regen.


I think that may have a lot of do with component choice. I'm kind of thinking it may be the Raptor, but I don't have any conclusive proof. I rode in an EV with a Raptor, and I can see how you could have gotten that impression from it. My bike, on the other hand, is just silky smooth. It's DC, and with a lowly Alltrax controller, but it's like there is nothing actually there making the bike move. That's my impression from riding it, and even others' impressions (expressed to me) from watching me ride it. I can't imagine anything being any smoother. That being said, I have been planning to convert to or incorporate AC drive on the bike, for a while now - but for sustained high-RPM, in my case.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Todd, I suspect that the raptor conversion is less smooth than most DC conversions. Even in third gear, it is difficult to take off from a red light without chirping the tires. It could be the older technology or the lack of weight, but it sure does force an EV grin once you stop trying to make it feel smooth and just lean into it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> I may forgo the noise reduction for the lower expense


DC are quieter than AC


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Todd, I suspect that the raptor conversion is less smooth than most DC conversions. Even in third gear, it is difficult to take off from a red light without chirping the tires. It could be the older technology or the lack of weight, but it sure does force an EV grin once you stop trying to make it feel smooth and just lean into it.


I have the throttle set to the fastest profile, but still have very linear, tactile, throttle feel and control. Besides the controller, I suspect that the Honda (automotive) TPS has a lot to do with this. I really should try to make a video to show it. I used to walk Scrape through the community workshop, with me on foot beside it, talking to the person/people with me, and then laugh at the surprise on their face(s) when the back tire would suddenly spin and then resume quietly rolling across the floor. "Is it running?!" "Yup!" 

My real point is that it was so smooth and tractable that the application of power was imperceptible until exaggerated enough. I could literally apply just enough power to eliminate the need for me to push the bike, without being able to actually feeling the bike pulling itself.

I'm also not trumpeting DC - just trying to make the point that it's really more about the whole package than any individual component.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

EVMetro have you considered previous advice about having some angle in the joint to prevent brinelling the bearings? Just checking. Looking great thus far


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

This diagram was from a previous thread which I think you may have posted on, Tyler. The angle is for a different purpose but I see your point.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> EVMetro have you considered previous advice about having some angle in the joint to prevent brinelling the bearings? Just checking. Looking great thus far


I talked to my local drive line shop about what I am doing, and learned that the maximum angle that I can have with a 3" driveshaft is 1 degree. Setting it up at zero allows for flex of the rubber mounts and it allows for error in the fabrication. The solid temporary coupler will keep the shafts aligned where the shafts are centered on each other during the fabrication stage, but it won't maintain a zero angle. I agree with you that there is some risk of cavitation of the needle bearing race over time, so I will keep my fingers crossed.

Here is what I added to the original single u joint configuration. It basically is a 3 inch driveshaft when used with regular u joints, but was originally designed to be a double cardon joint where the two u joints are linked with the pin. If I had gone the double cardon route it would have added even more length that I don't have room for. I want to keep the motor in the rear of the tunnel without encroaching into the center console area between the front seats. I will end up with a larger tunnel in the back seat area, and the back seat passengers will lose a little bit of foot room


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are the mounts for the powerglide. First is the view of the front mount from the bottom. Everything is just tacked in place, ready to weld. You can see the rubber layer if you look closely.










Top view of the same front mount










This pic is of the rear mount, bottom view.










And the top view of this mount.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Looking good. How do you plan to support and brace the motor assy against torque and it wanting to twist along its axis? I'd suggest a torque arm or two, one up to the rear sub frame and one off the front of the motor to the tunnel at a stiff point.


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Also, do you plan on using rubber mounts on the motor, or does the AC not transmit any discernible noise/vibration through the frame to the cabin?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have learned from my first conversions that the motors don't make as much noise inside the car as the transmissions do. I am indeed concerned about noise, so the motor and transmission as a unit will be rubber mounted in the cradle and the differential is factory rubber mounted inside its cradle. The two cradles act as one when bolted together in the car, and are rubber mounted to the chassis. The suspension cradle came with rubber mounts, so that part was easy. The motor cradle will have DOM sleeves and rubber bushings where it mounts to the chassis. Basically, the motor, transmission, and differential are double rubber isolated from the chassis. There is a little bit of detail on the transmission rubber mounts in post 90. Post 90 only shows the layer of rubber on the top side of the cradle, but there will be a second layer below so that the mounting perches are sandwiched between rubber layers.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The motor does not look very big when it is sitting on the floor, but it sure looks big in the car.










and here is a shot from the rear.










here you can see the motor end mount


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looking good buddy! Munch, munch (popcorn)...


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

I am starting to reconsider my motor choice. How much torque & HP do you expect from yours?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Vhclbldr said:


> I am starting to reconsider my motor choice. How much torque & HP do you expect from yours?


I don't know what exactly will reach the wheels, but the pack is 153.6 volts and the two controllers are 500 amps each, so 1000 amps. It sounds like about 200 horsepower to me. I believe the torque stays at 180 lbs until about 5000 rpm before it drops off.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are some shots from down below. That rectangle is just a jig for my transmission jack that is tack welded to the bottom of the motor cradle. It will be cut off when it is done


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The shocks on the original rear suspension were contained in the original cradle, so there were no shock mounting perches at all. Now there are...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Weight on wheels for the first time. Everything measures out like a dream.










Here is an aluminum splash shield for the motor. Its kinda neat to not be able to see the motor from the bottom of the car. That aluminum splash shield has bracing on the backside so that I can attach my transmission jack to it when I want to pull the motor and transmission.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I picked up an air conditioner for this conversion. At this time, the plan is to run this behind the rear seat in the trunk and duct the cold air up to the dash. 










The plugs on the control panel look easy to stretch out to reach the dash.










Here is the data panel. I will supply power to this with a blue flash 2kw inverter.










.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Where are you putting the hot air exhausted from the air conditioner's condensor? You aren't going to go for too long pumping heat into the trunk.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> Where are you putting the hot air exhausted from the air conditioner's condensor? You aren't going to go for too long pumping heat into the trunk.


Lol... No, that would never work. The hot air will go straight down onto the differential. That's why I am getting the A/C unit situated now before all the sheet metal work gets done in the trunk. It will have a hot air slot built in, as well as a water drain. There is also some fab work to do in the front of the A/c unit to get the air ducted.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'd also skip keeping the window shaker controls. I've taken one of these apart and if I used one of these in a car with an inverter, I would just wire the hot connections to the high speed fan tap and the compressor and just use an AC switch to turn the whole thing on and off similar to the way you'd normally switch on AC in an automotive setup.

Keep in mind that inverters often don't like powering inductive loads and some have trouble with motors. Have you tested the inverter to make sure it can power the compressor and fan without any trouble? Having a 2kw inverter helps with the startup load.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> I'd also skip keeping the window shaker controls. I've taken one of these apart and if I used one of these in a car with an inverter, I would just wire the hot connections to the high speed fan tap and the compressor and just use an AC switch to turn the whole thing on and off similar to the way you'd normally switch on AC in an automotive setup.


The window shaker controls are appealing for this set up since there is a second window unit for the passenger, and I am setting the climate controls up for independent driver and passenger systems. If all works out like I am planning, both units should be able to run on the low setting most of the time. The low setting is quiet and very peaceful, and dual climate controls go very well with the Cadillac theme. When on the high setting, there should be some overkill cold air to cool the car down quickly, but it makes a bit more noise so I will be anxious to turn them down to low.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This car had an unbelievable amount of "stuff" under the hood. Even after the Northstar motor and transmission assembly were out of the way, I could not see the paint color of the fender wells and frame rails because they had all kinds of "stuff"; black boxes, huge wiring harnesses, vacuum thingys, brackets, etc. Now I have most of it out of the way.










I can now see the frame rails! My plan here is to assemble all 48 300ah cells into a single unit that drops in with a cherry picker. It will be a cube that weighs 1050 pounds, and the + and - terminals of the pack will be less than 18" from the controllers. I am planning to mount the controllers on the firewall right where the plastic opening is for the obsolete evaporator, between the passenger side strut tower and the master cylinder.









.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

..........


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

"Runs and Starts"

Not anymore .

Wouldn't it be easier to run some copper tubing up front for the evaporator for the AC than to add all this ducting?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

samwichse said:


> "Runs and Starts"
> 
> Not anymore .
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to run some copper tubing up front for the evaporator for the AC than to add all this ducting?


It would be a little simpler right now, but I am very interested in being able to work on this car in the future. If one of these window units breaks in a couple of years, it will be nice to just pick up a new one and slide it in where the old one was. These window units also have their own fans, so there is no need for the original squirrel cage fan.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I ended up opting to go with 42 300ah cells in the main box, and then I will run a small box that will hold the other 6. The other 6 cell box will be right behind this big one so it will still be pretty much a single unit. This big box measures 34.5"x24"x25", so it is one big sumbitch. This single box will be 40kwh by itself, and it will weigh around 1000 lbs including the bus bars, the aluminum box, and the batteries. There is still more work to be done on this box like all the bracing and dividers and such, but there is enough here to see the concept of it. The front and rear of this box will be all bus bars and terminals as you can see in the front shot of this thing. The back side will be a mirror image of this view.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

That is some beautiful welding there, i know it is hard to get get used to welding aluminum. My self i would have made the boxes with some room for for insulation, but i live above the arctic circle.. so it my not apply to you. This conversion is really interesting to follow.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

steelneck said:


> That is some beautiful welding there, i know it is hard to get get used to welding aluminum. My self i would have made the boxes with some room for for insulation, but i live above the arctic circle.. so it my not apply to you. This conversion is really interesting to follow.


Yea, California is a pretty mild climate, so not much need for the insulation. We do need to try to park our EVs in the shade during the summer because of the heat. I would bet that our average temp is around 77 degrees fahrenhiet.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

My year round average temp is around the freezing point. Daytime in the two most warm summer months we can expect around 16 degree C (60F), actually we have about the same same temp day or night in the summer with midnight sun. Allredy now in May when i am typing this at 0335 it is almost daytime light outside. But in december the sun does not get over the horizon and -30C (-22F) in not uncommon night time.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

steelneck said:


> My year round average temp is around the freezing point. Daytime in the two most warm summer months we can expect around 16 degree C (60F), actually we have about the same same temp day or night in the summer with midnight sun. Allredy now in May when i am typing this at 0335 it is almost daytime light outside. But in december the sun does not get over the horizon and -30C (-22F) in not uncommon night time.


I spent a month up in Norway (the city was called "Hell", and it was froze over), so I know the cold that you have to deal with. You probably put a lot of thought into how to keep your batteries warm up there. I am glad to see that the climate does not keep you away from EVs though.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the main battery box for this rig. It holds 42 300ah cells, about 40 kwh... It may look simple, but there are close to 100 pcs of aluminum in this one. There will still be another 6 batteries in an additional box that may become part of this one. The way this box is sitting in this pic is the way it will sit in the car. It still needs the lift point in the center of the top and a few more details...










.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

that is BA, no question, deserves some kind of award!

-josh


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Since this will weigh in over 1000 lbs, it needed something pretty beefy to grab with the cherry picker... This hook should do the trick. 1" aluminum plate. A chain shackle can attach to this and have room for the hook on the cherry picker.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Since this will weigh in over 1000 lbs, it needed something pretty beefy to grab with the cherry picker...


At 1000lbs, I think I would have done four points, on the corners, so that the load was being carried by the corner verticals, and distributed evenly; with a 4-1 "sling" (fabric, chain, or steel) to reach the center pickup point.

Is that MIG or TIG?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> At 1000lbs, I think I would have done four points, on the corners, so that the load was being carried by the corner verticals, and distributed evenly; with a 4-1 "sling" (fabric, chain, or steel) to reach the center pickup point.
> 
> Is that MIG or TIG?


The four corners may still come into play after a lift test. Those diagonal supports that go from the lift area to the bottom of the box are designed to spread the load as well. The center cross beam that the lift point is welded to (TIG) is 1/4" T stock all the way across, and the 2 big square plates that join the lift point to the first set of verticals is 3/16" plate. I won't be able to tell until a loaded lift test is done, but the two big square plates are meant to handle more load out to the first verticals since the overall thickness is 7/16 plus the vertical part of the T channel. I don't believe that I can do a lift test until I have vertical battery hold downs in place since the outer edge are only flat stock. I will need the vertical hold downs to finish the structural support of this thing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

evmetro said:


> The four corners may still come into play after a lift test. Those diagonal supports that go from the lift area to the bottom of the box are designed to spread the load as well. The center cross beam that the lift point is welded to (TIG) is 1/4" T stock all the way across, and the 2 big square plates that join the lift point to the first set of verticals is 3/16" plate. I won't be able to tell until a loaded lift test is done, but the two big square plates are meant to handle more load out to the first verticals since the overall thickness is 7/16 plus the vertical part of the T channel. I don't believe that I can do a lift test until I have vertical battery hold downs in place since the outer edge are only flat stock. I will need the vertical hold downs to finish the structural support of this thing.


You may be fine, welded aluminum and stress always raise my eyebrows a bit. I had a buddy who had wheelie bar mounts TIG'd to his aluminum sportbike swingarm. All was fine and, as intended, he repeatedly unloaded the bike onto the bars - then one of the mounts snapped off and he sat on his azz watching his bike try to finish the run on its back wheel. The only real damage was to his pride, but an important lesson was learned. We teased him endlessly because he never trusted us to work on his bikes, and always paid extra for "more professional" services; like the TIG guy that stitched those mounts on. He also had a frame professionally raked, that wouldn't launch straight to save his life, but I digress into sarcasm... 

It has to do with the grade(s) of alloy in the original materials, the type of filler used, how much heat was introduced to the parts to get penetration and, finally what condition that left the surrounding alloy in around the welds. They usually snap right on the side of the bead, where the heat changed the condition of the alloy, removing elasticity, and making it stiff and brittle.

In your case, the weight of the box will cause the metal around the pickup point to flex a bit, and how many times, how far it can flex, depends on all the above.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Todd, you are right on about the brittleness associated with TIG, and it dangers of subjecting it to repeated stress. While the lift point should see very few stress cycles, I worry the most about repeated twisting as the chassis flexes. I am figuring that the rubber mounted front sub frame twists a bit less than the chassis does, so the box will be mounted to that like the ICE was.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

And here is how the main box fits under the hood. The lower radiator support is gone in this pic, and an EV battery support will be fabbed in to replace the ICE one. Ditto for the upper support.










Yep, the hood closes...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is how the new lower support goes. The factory one was part of the chassis, but this one is part of the suspension cradle now. The cradle will not flex and twist as much as the chassis will, so the box will only be mounted to the cradle. This means that the there will need to be some cable with lugs to connect this box to anything on the chassis to allow for movement of the box in relationship to the rest of the engine bay. (the cradle is rubber mounted to the chassis) I really like the looks and the nicer connection of the fabbed bus bars that some of you may have seen in my other build, but those do not allow as much movement.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, that is a massive battery pack; but it fits well!  Nice job on the design and fabrication.

Any ideas on what your final weight distribution might be?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the rear lower support. The other side looks the same.










This is the middle support, so in total, there are three support beams welded across the cradle to evenly hold the weight while making the cradle even more rigid. I do not believe that the battery box will experience much twisting or flexing, if any at all.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the new upper tie bar.










Here is some detail on the transition into the original tie bar. The angles here move it forward about four inches to allow clearance for the battery box and to eliminate a big funky bracket that the hood latch was mounted to.










Here is closer look the hood latch. This looks a little cleaner to me than the original format. Yes, the hood release cable routes through the inside of the square tubing...











Here is a shot of the factory upper tie bar and lower core support for comparison. 










.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I really love your work, especially the welding quality, it's just something else! Looking forward to seeing this progress


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the box for the other six batteries. The main box holds 42, this one holds 6, total 48 batteries. Believe it or not, the two 1239 controllers will be mounted "on" the firewall behind this box where those two openings are. Well, at least the tops of them will be flush with the firewall... 










Here is a side view. This gives a better view of the cool looking new upper core support, and the supports for the main battery box.










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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow, fab work worthy of a hot rod there. Thanks for all the pics. There are many great comments and suggestions in this thread, I have enjoyed reading it. EVmetro please consider doing a long post sometime about motivation, keeping focused, working steadily towards finishing, etc. You've done more in a few months than I have in years!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Wow, fab work worthy of a hot rod there. Thanks for all the pics. There are many great comments and suggestions in this thread, I have enjoyed reading it. EVmetro please consider doing a long post sometime about motivation, keeping focused, working steadily towards finishing, etc. You've done more in a few months than I have in years!



Thanks for checking it out. This stuff takes more time than a lot of people realize, but it sounds like you are quite aware of that!

Ok, here is an update...

This pic is of the box for the 1239 controllers. Each one has a chill plate, so the box is meant to have the connections pretty close to flush with the fire wall. The smaller battery box that holds the 6 batteries sits about 2 inches (5 cm for you guys that live in other countries) from the firewall, so countersinking the controllers in the firewall like this will make things pretty tidy.










Here is the spot in the firewall that is about to be chopped out so that the controller box can be welded in. Since the climate controls are being re engineered, there is quite a bit of room on the inside of the firewall now. The big square opening is going, as well as the big round one. The tunnel opening encroaches a little, but we will cross that bridge when the time comes.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Here are multiple random thoughts:


I have read the controller-to-motor leads should be kept as short as possible. Yours look like they'll be 2 to 3 meters long. Compounding the inductance problem is it'll be a bundle of 6 cables. It's probably worth checking with Curtis if the controllers are OK with motor leads that long. Another reason to keep them short is they act like antennas because of the high frequency components they carry. This could lead to poor radio reception and more EM radiation (probably not a big danger, but some folks worry about that).
You are likely doing this, but to be sure you'll want your firewall to remain intact and steel, not aluminum. It is called a "firewall" for a good reason!
1000 lbs is a lot of weight, and it is going to be a lot of work to service the batteries in the lower layer. How about doing the front battery structure in two layers? Then you could motor lift off the top layer to service the bottom layer more easily.
Keep up the good work and thanks again for the pics and descriptions!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I measured the 3 phase distance, and it looks like about 4.5 feet, or 135 cm. If I understand correctly, it is better to twist them, but I am not sure if it is better to have two twisted runs of 3 phase, or a single twisted bundle of 6 cables. The motor/ motors are about halfway back in the tunnel, so the cables will be running the length of the front floor, and the floor under the front seats. The motor terminals are in the tunnel between the back seat floors, a few inches from the aft front seat bolts.

I think we are on the same page with using steel for the firewall. I considered using aluminum for the weight savings, but the steel that this box is made of can be welded in, and then become a permanent part of the firewall. It should look kinda factory once it is painted. I spent a number of years as an ICAR certified collision tech in a couple of body shops, and have come to appreciate the principles that ICAR teaches. At the same time, I am fully aware that the world of custom cars defies most of what they teach...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a pic of the distance that the 3 phase cables will need to cover. It is convenient that the cables will exit the controller box right at the entrance to the tunnel, as it is a straight shot to the motor under the car. It is kinda neat to see a motor right in the middle of a car like that. It definitely classifies as "mid" engine...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Look, it's a big block under the hood!



evmetro said:


>


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

evmetro said:


> I measured the 3 phase distance, and it looks like about 4.5 feet, or 135 cm. If I understand correctly, it is better to twist them...


Nope, the battery side cables have swinging current on them so they are the ones that benefit the most from being twisted together or run as close together as possible (one of the worst things you can do is run the + & - cables down opposite sides of an EV, something people seem to instinctively do). 

The motor side cables have swinging voltage on them so benefit the most from being run inside a metal shield and kept as short as possible to minimize their acting as antennas.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Nope, the battery side cables have swinging current on them so they are the ones that benefit the most from being twisted together or run as close together as possible (one of the worst things you can do is run the + & - cables down opposite sides of an EV, something people seem to instinctively do).
> 
> The motor side cables have swinging voltage on them so benefit the most from being run inside a metal shield and kept as short as possible to minimize their acting as antennas.


Great info tess, thanks. I understand twist or run the DC cables close together, and the 3 phase ones don't get much benefit from twisting. Does it make a difference if I run them all in the tunnel, but in separate bundles? Would it make a difference to try to separate the two bundles? Would it be beneficial to avoid putting all the different cables through the tunnel?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the hole for the controller box.










and here is how the box looks in the hole. It still needs a little more trimming before getting welded in, but you get the idea...










.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Look, it's a big block under the hood!


David, I like it! Maybe this ride will end up being referred to as The Big Block. Big blocks go hand in hand with Cadillacs...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Absolutely loving this build evmetro; loving it! Keep it comin...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Great info tess, thanks. I understand twist or run the DC cables close together, and the 3 phase ones don't get much benefit from twisting. Does it make a difference if I run them all in the tunnel, but in separate bundles? Would it make a difference to try to separate the two bundles? Would it be beneficial to avoid putting all the different cables through the tunnel?


It should be ok to run the battery and motor cables together in the same tunnel and, yes, you will want to bundle them separately - that is, put the battery cables in one bundle and the motor cables in another. Finally, I would try to put the battery and motor cables in separate tunnels or conduits or what-have-you, but that is a much less important consideration and not one I'd worry about if it would be impractical or unduly difficult to do.

However, if the motor cables exceed a couple meters in length the likelihood of electrical noise problems skyrockets. And I'm not just talking about ruining the radio reception: all sorts of electronics in your vehicle, and even the ones around you, could start malfunctioning. Remember, all of the electronics in a regular ICE vehicle have been designed to withstand the noise from the alternator and the ignition system - and both of those operate at relatively puny power levels compared to an EV motor controller.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The Orion BMS is going to be under the hood, so here are the beginnings of the weather proof box. I seems that the TIG welded aluminum is pretty much the way to go when building an EV. 










The cooling fins will still be out in the weather, but there will be a seal around them, and all of the cables will be sealed as well.










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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

very cool, my Orion won't get as nice of treatment, but it will probably end up inside the car, maybe under the dash, still, I'm jealous, good job.

I've been MIG welding, and I haven't got the other type of gas to try some TIG, but it looks tempting.
-josh


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

bwjunkie said:


> very cool, my Orion won't get as nice of treatment, but it will probably end up inside the car, maybe under the dash, still, I'm jealous, good job.
> 
> I've been MIG welding, and I haven't got the other type of gas to try some TIG, but it looks tempting.
> -josh


I don't think you will have any problems if your Orion is mounted inside the car. Look at the bright side... it is even lighter inside with no box.

Ok, here is some more detail on the lid.










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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice TIG work!  Oh yeah, I like the enclosure too.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

toddshotrods said:


> Nice TIG work!  Oh yeah, I like the enclosure too.


I like how the welds kinda give a twinkle, or glitter when they are polished. The light bounces off in different directions than the flat surfaces, so a pretty cool effect. Can't wait to see it polished.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Next step is to mount the box under the hood. Here is the bracket that holds the Orion box. It is steel since it is welded to the frame rail.










Here is a shot of the box on the bracket.










Since the "big block" (as we call the big battery pack) is mounted to the cradle, it will move around in the motor compartment as the chassis flexes. The Orion box is mounted a little ways away from the battery box so that the chassis can flex and the battery box won't touch the Orion box. Note the gap between the boxes. It is close because there will also be four lithium batteries just outboard of the Orion box that will be the aux battery.










Here is a bottom view of where the bracket for the Orion box is welded to the chassis. The hole in the steel bracket that reveals a slightly smaller hole in the aluminum box is for one of the Orion mounting bolts that holds the Orion to the aluminum box. You can also see that the bolts that hold the box to the bracket have been welded. When the box is installed, it is just placed onto these "studs" and then nuts are installed inside the box to hold it in. There would be no way to access these bolt heads once the batteries are loaded into the "big block", so welding them should solve that problem.










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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Coming on nicely, I'm so envious of your alloy welding, I'm afraid it's a skill I don't possess!


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Evmetro is an artist in welding.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

steelneck said:


> Evmetro is an artist in welding.


I can't take credit as the artist on this. I have a buddy who comes in a couple days per week. He is gifted and is a better welder and fabricator than I am. He is new to working in an EV shop, but certainly not new to metal fabrication, so his work is critical for a high end build like this. I do take pride in having the skills to do everything in a build, but my fab guy surpasses my skills and the skills of pretty much anybody I have ever met.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I found this on the web....thought you might be interested...


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

palmer_md said:


> thought you might be interested...


......nope


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> I found this on the web....thought you might be interested...


Ouch! That poor car needs to be rescued.

I see people do bad things to the Metros that I convert as well...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the EMW charger for this rig. The box is 10" x 9.5" x 6". Nice and compact.










It will be oriented in the car like this, with the canopy over the fans just in case water ever got splashed onto the charger. I still need the vent hole on the bottom of the charger box, but that will come after the box is mounted in the car.










This is the control panel, set up for remote mounting. This particular remote panel is actually for the Metro conversion that I am almost finished with, but I will do the same thing for this charger. Notice that one of those displays is a cell log 8, which will be used for the four lithium cells that make up the 12 volt aux battery. It just seemed right to have both the pack and aux batteries show up on the same central panel.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is the vacuum system for the brakes. When I toured the local Tesla dealer, I saw the Model S that they had there with the body off of it, and I saw that they had their pump rubber mounted to a plate, and then that plate was rubber mounted to its mounting bracket. The idea really makes sense if you don't like hearing the pump vibrations getting transmitted through the chassis, so I went ahead and borrowed that concept. Now the pump is rubber mounted to a plate that is rubber mounted to the bracket. That vacuum bracket for the canister and pump mounts to the cradle, which is rubber mounted to the chassis. That should cut down on some noise...










Close up of rubber mounting










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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have the Hella UP31 pump that is std. in Volvo V60 among other cars, that pump is equipped with quite soft rubber mounts, then i have those mounted to the motor frame that in turn uses the original engine rubber mounts of the car. I cannot hear the vacuum pump unless i am standing still and have the driver door open.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

In that second conversion in my signature, I have a cheap loud pump that is rubber mounted with old hard rubber feet with no further isolation. The sound inside the car was enough to make me really focus on the pump in the next build...


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## MoistCabbage (Oct 30, 2014)

Hey EV, MC from Cadillacforums. Looks like the Eldo's coming along nicely! When you have time, pop in and post an update for us, some of us are wondering how it's going.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

MoistCabbage said:


> Hey EV, MC from Cadillacforums. Looks like the Eldo's coming along nicely! When you have time, pop in and post an update for us, some of us are wondering how it's going.


Ah yes... I have not posted over there for awhile... I will update that.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the bracket for the vacuum pump and reservoir in place. The small battery box in the back will hide the vacuum stuff from view, but you gotta do what you gotta do to fit everything in....










Here is the throttle










Here are the four batteries that make the aux battery


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here, the 1994 Eldorado steering column has been converted to an electric column, thanks to a 2007 donor Saturn Vue that is now missing its electric steering motor and some couplers.










Here is a closer shot of the surgery.











Here is how it looked before surgery.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here the electric column is in place. It feels pretty good when I put my foot on the brake, but I will have to mount that controller box remotely to ensure proper clearance between the toe of my shoe and the steering motor. The motor assembly has plenty of clearance, but I am not satisfied with the corner of that controller box.










The front mount is the original one, and the back mounts needed some fabrication. In this pic, the rear mount is tacked into place, and the three holes are for plug welds.










Here is the mounting bracket on the other side, ready to bake.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Change in plans for the charger. I went with a pair of the Elcon PFC 5000 chargers instead, and they will be back here in the trunk instead of up front under the hood. These will have cool air ducted to each fan, and then hot air will be ducted out. These two chargers will be CANBUS controlled from the Orion, and I went with two separate CAN IDs on them. I was really inspired in my recent build of the white 93 Metro by how nice it is to have the controller and the Orion communicating, so I think that having the chargers linked as well will really sweeten the deal.










The custom shock towers are built now, and some of the sheetmetal work is done.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

So, these 5kw chargers each come with two cooling fans.










Since they are going to be in an enclosed area, I want to duct in outside air, and port hot exhaust air out. Here are the beginnings of the fan ducts. Everything so far is 1/8" aluminum.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, here is a shot of the inside of one of the ducts. This view is the top view, as it will sit on the charger, and the lid is not welded on yet. The tubes are for screwdriver access to the screws that hold the duct assembly to the charger.










Here is a bottom view of the surface that attaches to the charger










Here is the duct with the top welded on now, and it is in place on one of the chargers. The fresh air is ported in from the rear of the car.










Here is where the fresh air enters the duct, from the outside of the car, but out of site behind the rear bumper.










I have a piece of flat stock laying across the charger duct and the new frame rail structure to show where the sub floor will go in. The sub floor will seal the chamber that the chargers reside in, so all I will need are some exhaust ports to let the heat out. I should be able to carpet the sub floor to hide the entire charger project.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

evmetro said:


>


Nice welds!
TIG welder i assume?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

azdeltawye said:


> Nice welds!
> TIG welder i assume?



Miller synchrowave 250 dx TIG welder.

So both top ducts are built. The chamber that these chargers will be sealed into has those ducts to the fans, but there needs to be air in, as well as air out so that I can keep moving heat out of the chamber. Here are the chamber vents:



















One on each side of the spare tire well where these chargers reside. Here is the left hand one welded into place.










Bottom view










.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hey evmetro, how will you keep the car water tight?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Hey evmetro, how will you keep the car water tight?



Lol, lotsa details not worked out yet, but in the works. Stay tuned. Although those intakes and exhausts are not finished yet, they do all angle downwards so that gravity will work in my favor. I am still plotting the rest, but I still have to get the two air conditioners set up back here, with the appropriate ducts and what not...


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## Pinkbatman (Jul 12, 2014)

So glad this is going down! I saw it last time I was on here and all the fab looks so good! Keep it up.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a little more progress. Each of the two air conditioners has an aluminum box to replace the ones that they came with. Since these units are going to be ducted, the ventilation slots all over the original enclosures won't work. Here are the two boxes for the two 6400 btu airconditioners, and the ducting openings are not cut yet. You can also see that the charger cavity is closed in now with that aluminum cover.










Here is a view of how the sides of the charger compartment are sealed off. The aluminum lid lays over the charger cavity and seals it all off, and the lid is strong enough to load groceries, bags of cement, junk, or whatever. The dividers between on the sides of the charger compartment create two more small compartments on each side that I will use for electronics type stuff, like those contactors sitting in there. (thanks DCB for the tip on those contactors)










Here is a view of the limited space on top of the a/c enclosures. There will be ducting up here, so this tiny space will be filled with ducts, and some nice 6x9 speakers in those holes there in the rear package tray.










I fired up one of the air conditioners with the DC AC inverter to see how well it will perform, and was quite impressed. I just plugged in HVDC from one of my other conversions so I could read my gauges in the car to see what the current looks like The a/c performs the same running off of the inverter as it does out of my shorepower line, so I am impressed with it. When I turn on my key in the EV that I used to power this inverter and a/c unit, my amps gauge goes to 1.3 amps like it does all the time, and when I have the a/c running on cold and high, the amps gauge goes up to about 5.2 to 5.4 off of that 115 volt 36 cell pack. My volts gauge was actually reading about 119.5v for the test. Nice.

I am a little puzzled about the math on this, since when I try to convert the 6400 btu that it says on the a/c box into watts. I don't know if they sell window units like this with inflated btu rating like they sell car amplifiers with huge watt claims that are untrue, but my calculations are showing that this is not a 6400 btu unit like the box says. Either way, it blows really cold running through my inverter off of the HVDC, and the temp is the same according to my raytec ir temp gun as when I run it off of shorepower. Here is a shot of the inverter HVDC in, 120 AC out. Super light.










Here is a shot of some cutting on the bottom of the a/c unit. I have an aluminum pan built around the original pan, since the original pan gets very weak after the sheet metal is carved out. The bottom is going to bring in outside air to cool the condenser. the outside air will come from above the differential, and inside air from a duct to the rear package tray. There will be a condenser exhaust duct going to behind the RH whell well.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yes, that was a J plug laying ther in the first pic in my last post. This conversion is getting the usual 50 amp inlet, the must have 110 inlet, AND the J plug.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The btu ratings of air conditioners are btu/hr heat pumped out of the room. The coefficient of performance is on the order of three, varying with inlet and outlet temperature, so that you're consuming about 100W of electricity to pump 300W of heat from a cold place to a hot place. 400 W of heat ends up in the hot place. That doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics- you're using work (mechanical energy, derived from electricity) to pump heat up a temperature gradient. It's just the reverse of a heat engine, which converts a small fraction of the heat which flows DOWN a temperature gradient, into work.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> The btu ratings of air conditioners are btu/hr heat pumped out of the room. The coefficient of performance is on the order of three, varying with inlet and outlet temperature, so that you're consuming about 100W of electricity to pump 300W of heat from a cold place to a hot place. 400 W of heat ends up in the hot place. That doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics- you're using work (mechanical energy, derived from electricity) to pump heat up a temperature gradient. It's just the reverse of a heat engine, which converts a small fraction of the heat which flows DOWN a temperature gradient, into work.


Heat is really fascinating stuff. I knew this could not violate the second law, but did know about the temperature gradient. EV conversions can be very educational...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, this is the first of the four ducts that are needed for the air conditioners. I need inside air in, inside air out, outside air in, and outside air out. This first duct is outside air air in. Air from outside will enter here and be directed to the condenser.




















Here is the duct welded into the floor of the car.










.
The air conditioners sit on top of that outside air in duct.









.Here is a view inside one of the units so you can see how outside air enters the unit










The next duct is the inside air in duct. This air will come from inside the car and enter the evaporator. It is not done yet, but here it is. You can see the opening in the middle, that will continue upward to the rear package tray.










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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very nice! I like the detailed pics in your posts. I've thought using an air conditioner like the ones you have in this build, but couldn't fit one in my little Spitfire. 

When you build metalwork liked this for your car, do you CAD the parts out first, draw it out on paper, or make it as you go? It's all such high quality, I'm just curious about your process... thanks.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Baratong said:


> Very nice! I like the detailed pics in your posts. I've thought using an air conditioner like the ones you have in this build, but couldn't fit one in my little Spitfire.
> 
> When you build metalwork liked this for your car, do you CAD the parts out first, draw it out on paper, or make it as you go? It's all such high quality, I'm just curious about your process... thanks.


There is no CAD going on here. Think, measure, draw, cut, bend.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the control box for my electric actuator that will be shifting the manual valve body powerglide. I will be using rpm switches to trigger my shifts, so that it still shifts like a Cadillac should. All 5 shift positions can be electronically activated... More on that later.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, the next duct allows cooler air from the interior of the car to recirculate back through the evaporator. Here is a pic:










Here, you can see where the one common intake splits into a common chamber that both air conditioners share.










This is the intake opening that allows air in from the package tray. It comes in here, and goes into the evaporators.










Here is how it looks in the car. You can see how the modified rear package tray has an opening that matches the cold intake duct.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The next duct is one of two cold air outlets, since this is a separate driver and passenger climate control system. This first duct is the drivers side. The tube is for duct work to attach to, and the opening on top is for the rear cold air outlet that has not been completed yet.










Here it is where it goes. The tube points towards the driver door so that I can run the ducting tube to the front of the car. The opening on the top of this is facing the package tray, but the package tray has not been modified yet for this rear cold air outlet.










Here you can see it with the intake duct.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a sample of the duct that will connect the cold air to the front of the car. I am plotting his and hers heater boxes up front, each with a two 1500 watt ceramic heater elements, and these ducts will connect to the heater boxes. Inside of the heater boxes, I am plotting "puller" fans that would pull the air from the back of the car, kind of a booster fan since the squirrel cages in the air conditioners will not be enough for this size and distance of duct. Bigger ducting would be better, but that ain't happening.










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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

2 AC units ?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> 2 AC units ?


On the Metros that I converted, I just roll the windows down, but the goals for those were about economy. This build is more about luxury. Cadillacs should have dual climate controls, and these climate controls should be effective. On high speed, they should bring the cabin temp down pretty fast, and then they can run on the lowest (quietest) speed to maintain the cold temp after the cabin is nice and cool. Since this is an EV, the remote start button on the key fob will be re purposed to start the A/C, so it will be comfortable to get into. 

One of the nice things about an EV is that it is easier to have more heat and more cold available than what we are limited to in an ICE vehicle, so I want to take advantage of that. 13,000 BTU of A/C is not really overkill, but the 12kw of heater might be. Either way, it should be pretty luxurious.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the drivers side rear cold air outlet.










One more to go on the passenger side.










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## z_power (Dec 17, 2011)

Awesome fabrication skills - straight angles are straight, flat surfaces aren't twisted or bent; there's a ton of work hidden behind these pictures...

What is this hedgehog-lookin' thingy?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

z_power said:


> What is this hedgehog-lookin' thingy?


That is a board of cleco fasteners. We had them in the Navy where I was an aircraft mechanic, so I grabbed these up at a garage sale a few years ago for cheap. There is a special pair of pliers that removes and installs them, and they basically do what a zip screw would do. The different colors of clecos are for different hole sizes. On aircraft structures, these are really nice for holding multiple layers together if you still have to drill a bunch more holes through the multiple layers for your rivits. The most I ever got to use them was in my Navy sheet metal school, where we had to build sections of a wing, and practice panels that had to be rivited together. Once I got out into the regular maintenance environment, I rarely got to do any projects big enough to need clecos. They are still a really cool aviation tool, so I when I saw them, I had to have a set of my own.


















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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

z_power said:


> Awesome fabrication skills - straight angles are straight, flat surfaces aren't twisted or bent; there's a ton of work hidden behind these pictures...


I second that sentiment - I am in total awe of your workmanship

I can make things that work - but they are never as beautiful as the stuff you do


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Cleco's are great! I was an aircraft mechanic too for a few years, heavy maintenance at a regional airline. I used them quite a bit. I used to have a full set of them as well, but they were given away when I moved overseas.

Nice work, as always.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Got some stuff done on the motor/transmission cradle. This perch holds the pump for the powerglide:










Here is how it looks with the pump on it. The pump has rubber feet to help out a little with the sound. Still need some lines.










Here is the shift linkage. It works great on the bottom hole, the top holes are there in case lower positions were too aggressive for the actuator. Total travel of the actuator is about 1.25 inches, and the actuator travels at 2 inches per second.










Here is another view. The rod ends give it a very precise feel, zero slop.










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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Sweet, Love seeing your work. 

Pete


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I have a lot of schematic to draw now. There is more thought that goes into this shift set up than people would imagine. The two components below are what control the shift actuator, to make it give me the feel of an automatic.










The box on the left is something a paid an engineer to develop, and the five little buttons inside are memory buttons like an old car stereo. These memory settings are park, reverse, neutral, low, and high. Once the five positions are programmed in by pressing and holding a button, they can be accessed with a switch, and there are five wires corresponding to each of the five positions, so I can remotely trigger any of the five positions. 

The box on the right is an rpm window switch that I ordered from summit. The idea here is that I can program the rpm switch to shift from low to high at a certain rpm, and then have it switch back to low at another rpm. I don't want to have it shift back to low at too high an rpm, since I am also going to be set up for around 800 amps on the regen. I will set it up with a higher rpm on the shift from low to high than the downshift back to low. The rpm switch will control the actuator to give the feel that is needed to maintain the automatic feel that a Cadillac is supposed to have, even though it has a manual valve body, and will be dropping to zero rpm when stopped.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I too am in continual awe of your workmanship. You put a huge amount of care and skill into your work and it shows, big time.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Time to seal up the tunnel. First come the two holes where the sub frame encroaches into the rear seat pans. I want the flanges that are showing through these holes to be easy to unbolt when I want to remove that sub frame, so you can see that the first has been cut out a little bigger. They will both be cut out bigger like this so that it will be easy to unbolt that sub frame below the car when this is done.










Here is the "bubble" that covers the opening:










.Here is the same bubble with a flange added for strength:










Two bubbles in place...










The motor, tunnel, and everything do not sit in the true center of the car, so the passenger seat was rubbing on the motor and had to be moved over to the right side of the car about 3/4" In the pic below, you can see two pairs of slots marked with little pieces of yellow tape. Those slots are what hold the front of the seat down, so the whole beam had to be shortened on the RH side, and lengthened on the LH side, before welding it back in, in order to keep the two pairs of slots properly spaced to accept the seat. Basically, the two pairs of slots had to get moved in order for the seat to get moved. The rear of the seats just bolt in, and you can see that those holes have already been moved in this pic.










Next is the tunnel under the rear seat. This is just the beginning of this piece, but something to start with...



















A little filler panel...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a view from the very front, where you can see the shift actuator. You can see that the two sides of the tunnel work so far are not mirror imaged, this will be to accommodate the shifter work. I forgot to document the last of the air conditioning ducts, but in the first photo of my last post, you can kinda see the duct for the hot air after it leaves the evaporators. It is wedge shaped to fit up to the diagonal angle of the rear seat and up to the vertical angle of the evaporators, and the hot air goes down through the floor and under the car.










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## EVSpitfire (Feb 28, 2014)

Love your build.
I tried to get in contact for the past few weeks with KansasEV to obtain a EVGluide. Do you know if they have gone out of business?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

EVSpitfire said:


> Love your build.
> I tried to get in contact for the past few weeks with KansasEV to obtain a EVGluide. Do you know if they have gone out of business?


I would not be surprised if they were no longer in business. When I bought mine, it felt like it was probably the last unit for him to build. I don't know for sure though.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a start for the passenger side of the tunnel.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is some of the support for the front of the tunnel. The motor cradle bolts go right under the seat bolt holes, so there needs to be some pretty good support here. This is box tubing to connect the driver side and passenger side structural beams, and it is just tacked in place here.










This is the start of what will go up and over the siamese motors.










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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

Appreciate you sharing this conversion in such detail. Really awesome contribution.

I'm almost ready to order a motor or motors and really interested in your decision to select the AC35x2 144v over dual kostov 11's . (AC35x2 144v has been my choice for 2 years, but on the fence now.)

You have the ultimate dream mid-engine IRS/PowerGlide setup, what are your thoughts of dual Warp 9, or dual Warp 11HVs with Zilla 2K controller?

Really like your IRS/PowerGlide solution. Since last year, have been looking at early Corvette IRS/PowerGlide kits. Also saw good salvage Mustang IRS units at great prices.

For $6-7K found a couple custom hot rod IRS units that bolt up to PowerGlide with inboard disk brake systems that look really sexy. ( on the dream list)

For my VW Beetle Type I IRS street/ race project, looking at Weddle Vanagon 094 for single rear motor, or Weddle HV24 for mid-engine dual motors. Already have upgraded rear suspension with HD 930 CVs. Thinking that by adding a HV24 to what I have will be the about the same cost as the custom hot rod IRS and EV PowerGlide combo. My next project will start out IRS/PowerGlide mid-engine.

Thanks again for all the great info.


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Sterling2015 said:


> Appreciate you sharing this conversion in such detail. Really awesome contribution.
> 
> I'm almost ready to order a motor or motors and really interested in your decision to select the AC35x2 144v over dual kostov 11's . (AC35x2 144v has been my choice for 2 years, but on the fence now.)
> 
> ...


Running a powerful DC set up like the ones you mentioned will make for quite an enjoyable EV, but the reason why I went this route was for the technology and efficiency. After building several EV conversions, and doing a lot of research, I have developed a system that is more efficient than a DC, or like an AC that is configured with off throttle regen. This conversion with the AC motor is being configured with no off throttle regen so that it will freewheel unencumbered like a DC system, but will not use regen at inopportune times like an AC system that is configured with off throttle regen. This AC system will act as the primary braking system for the car, while harvesting energy at an opportune time. Sorting out opportune regen from inopportune regen like this is my Kinetic Energy Management System that is more efficient than oem and diy conversion configurations that use off throttle regen. The DC systems that you are looking at would make for a really great EV, but for my purposes, this AC system fit what I was after.


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

Really interesting, thanks. Have read of excellent results from regen braking. My second project in progres has the very low cd Sterling body and will be lighter. Your KEMS with no regen coasting but regen brakes, with AC35x2 sound like could make the Sterling kit a very efficient cruiser. Interested if you're considering selling KEMS kits for AC35x2.

I'll go back and read all the posts, might have skipped a few. Very good read, thanks again.



Evmetro1 said:


> Running a powerful DC set up like the ones you mentioned will make for quite an enjoyable EV, but the reason why I went this route was for the technology and efficiency. After building several EV conversions, and doing a lot of research, I have developed a system that is more efficient than a DC, or like an AC that is configured with off throttle regen. This conversion with the AC motor is being configured with no off throttle regen so that it will freewheel unencumbered like a DC system, but will not use regen at inopportune times like an AC system that is configured with off throttle regen. This AC system will act as the primary braking system for the car, while harvesting energy at an opportune time. Sorting out opportune regen from inopportune regen like this is my Kinetic Energy Management System that is more efficient than oem and diy conversion configurations that use off throttle regen. The DC systems that you are looking at would make for a really great EV, but for my purposes, this AC system fit what I was after.


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Sterling2015 said:


> Really interesting, thanks. Have read of excellent results from regen braking. My second project in progres has the very low cd Sterling body and will be lighter. Your KEMS with no regen coasting but regen brakes, with AC35x2 sound like could make the Sterling kit a very efficient cruiser. Interested if you're considering selling KEMS kits for AC35x2.
> 
> I'll go back and read all the posts, might have skipped a few. Very good read, thanks again.


The best place to see more about it is in my last conversion where I have documented the build:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/tevie2-metro-87744.html

There is not much hardware to my KEMS besides how the controller is programmed, other than my Variable On Demand Regen, which is how the opportune regen is used specifically for braking and slowing down. I keep the friction braking system in tact as a redundant system, and add my Variable On Demand Regen control in an ergonomically correct position. As it turns out, a thumb or finger control for the primary braking system is easier and more comfortable to use than the traditional foot brake, so I prefer to mount mine in the enter console where my hand rests naturally. I still use the foot brake from time to time, as well as to hold the car at a stop, but once I am underway, I never bother with it. It is much more pleasurable to drive with the thumb or finger control than with traditional foot brakes. One could use a dedicated foot pedal for the Variable On Demand Regen, but trying to blend it into the friction brake pedal inevitably leads to more use of the friction brake.


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Sterling2015 said:


> Your KEMS with no regen coasting but regen brakes, with AC35x2 sound like could make the Sterling kit a very efficient cruiser. .


The KEMS makes any car more efficient. The automotive industry has been been focused on weight and aerodynamics, but have overlooked kinetic energy. In aviation it is not as much of a factor since planes tend to stay in a very steady motion, but here on the ground, the terrain and traffic conditions are constantly changing. My research and testing is showing that there is a remarkable amount of kinetic energy wasted with ICE vehicles and with EVs that are using off throttle regen, far more than one might think. EV manufacturers are still spending big bucks to aerodynamically tweak a car for the most trivial gains, but then sending them out the door with off-throttle regen, which introduces kinetic energy robbing inopportune regen. The inopportune regen ends up cancelling out the opportune regen


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## Carnut1100 (Jan 13, 2015)

This depends on driving style. 
I did 40,000km in my imiev before i sold it and experimented between the low and high regen settings as well as flicking it into neutral to get true coast. 
Being allow to coast has benefits quite often, but i found that with practice i could back the throttle off enough to get zero power in or out but variable instantly by foot control. 
I ended up driving one pedal 99 percent of the time just using foot brake for stopping and steep hills. 
My preference would be for off throttle regen but controllable by a knob on the dash so i can turn it up or down as well as a brake circuit pressure switch to ramp up regen when the pedal is hit.


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Carnut1100 said:


> This depends on driving style.
> I did 40,000km in my imiev before i sold it and experimented between the low and high regen settings as well as flicking it into neutral to get true coast.
> Being allow to coast has benefits quite often, but i found that with practice i could back the throttle off enough to get zero power in or out but variable instantly by foot control.
> I ended up driving one pedal 99 percent of the time just using foot brake for stopping and steep hills.
> My preference would be for off throttle regen but controllable by a knob on the dash so i can turn it up or down as well as a brake circuit pressure switch to ramp up regen when the pedal is hit.


One can drastically improve efficiency if they are making a conscious effort to eco drive an EV that is configured with off throttle regen, but it still takes a constant conscious effort that will inevitably be interupted. It is not realistic for a human to react, on a consistent basis, to the changing traffic conditions and terrain in a way that preserves and recovers kinetic energy as much as my Kinetic Energy Management System. The negative and inevitable effects of inopportune regen that occurs with off throttle regen are what is so hard to conceive, since it has not been talked about before, and you can't see it. The effects appear trivial if you track it real time on your gauges, but they add up to a lot more in the long run than anybody would ever suspect. ICE vehicles have a rotating mass that disturbs the consistency of motion as well, which is also something that is hard for people to conceive, and this rotating mass disturbs kinetic energy just like off throttle regen does in an EV.

There are lots of ways to configure an EV, but my research and testing shows that if efficiency is your objective, the KEMS is the best. If simulating an ICE is the objective, than the less efficient off throttle configuration is best.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Evmetro

How much are you talking about with your efficiency gains?
I'm a bit skeptical that there is much to be gained - it would be nice to have some actual test data


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

,


Duncan said:


> Hi Evmetro
> 
> How much are you talking about with your efficiency gains?
> I'm a bit skeptical that there is much to be gained - it would be nice to have some actual test data


KEMS℠efficiency gains vary quite a bit depending on terrain and traffic conditions. The gains vary from very little on flat freeway drives to more than 10% in other more complex terrain or traffic. I have plenty of data from all of my different tests, but you are right to be skeptical, since it is very difficult to conceptualize just how much inopportune specific regen occurs with off throttle configurations. What is important to recognize, is the fact that inopportune regen is inevitable with off throttle regen, and that inopportune regen is waste in its purest form. Off throttle regen does not compensate for changing road conditions or traffic conditions, and humans do not have the ability to match deadband on a consistent and accurate basis. Even when humans approximate deadband with a very conscious effort to do exactly that, it is very difficult to see the optimum time to actually do it. Inopportune regen is inevitable with off throttle regen, and this waste in its purest form needs to be filtered out altogether, so that the only kind of regen that occurs is opportune.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks EvMetro

That makes a lot of sense - not sure that there is much their to be gained but every little helps

When I get an EV that has re-gen (The Device is DC) I will try and set it up like that
Or at least with a broad "dead band" before off throttle re-gen sets in


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Thanks EvMetro
> - not sure that there is much their to be gained but every little helps


I was not sure if there was much there to be gained either, but I was looking to get my previous build to be as efficient as possible, so I built it with the KEMS℠. My theory seemed solid that inopportune regen is a natural side effect of off throttle regen, I just did not realize how much inopportune regen that there really was until I built it and did lots of tests. It turns out that inopportune regen is a much bigger problem than I had originally assumed. The whole idea with regen is to capture energy that was already going to be wasted anyway, so the inopportune regen that occurs with of throttle regen works against the very purpose of brake regen.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I like your logic 
Now I really want to get hold of an AC system - and build a new chassis for it - fiberglass honeycomb panels!

Maybe in a couple of years


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## Evmetro1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Duncan said:


> I like your logic
> Now I really want to get hold of an AC system - and build a new chassis for it - fiberglass honeycomb panels!
> 
> Maybe in a couple of years


I would love to see that, since your build is one of my favorites.


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

Going to follow your example on my next build, really enjoy seeing EV PowerGlide IRS mid-engine. 

Was thinking of your discussion of K energy and reminded me of flywheel recovery systems.

Started my project a while ago and committed to rear engine transaxle, just ordered single motor kit and decided to go with conventional clutch package. 

Had to consider lightweight flywheel, but going to try the full weight flywheel recommended for the performance clutch kit.

Let's say driving in stop and go traffic, or even a quick traffic light, gear down to spin up the motor, not regen braking, just spinning the motor, disengage clutch before braking and allow the motor and flywheel to continue spinning while car is stopped. 

Then, to get going again, slip the clutch with no throttle to use the stored flywheel energy? 

Am I way off? Thought I'd try just for fun.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

So it has been awhile since I updated this thread, but the build is still going well. Here is an update on the progress:

This is the front of the tunnel:











and here is a view of the whole deal:










Next, comes the intake that allows fresh air to circulate to the air intake area of the motors. The motors sit up in the tunnel where there is not a whole lot of air circulation, so I want to direct some fresh air up into that area. 










And of course that little intake scoop needs a lid on it to direct flow towards the motor intake:









Shot of the floor all ready for final welding of the new tunnel:










Here is some detail of the underside of the new tunnel










You won't see the inside of this tunnel like this very often, so here is another:










Here is a top view of it before it is welded into the car










All ready to weld










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot of the motors where they go, all tucked up higher than the floor.










This is the pump for the powerglide. You can see that its home on the motor cradle/sub frame is up in a void above the rear passenger floor and rear passenger seat area. You can also see in this pic that the motors are up out of site inside the tunnel, above the floor line.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

If you look at that pic of the motors in my previous post, you can see that the dual AC 35 motor is set up with 2 sets of three phase connections, which means that I need to get six 3 phase cables from the controllers up in the firewall to the 6 connection lugs on the twin 35 motors.

Here is the box in my firewall where the two controllers will be:










So here is an aluminum channel for the six cables:











That may look pretty simple, but there were a few problems with the various angles as you can see below:










Here is how the angle changes were handled:










Here is the upper surface that will never be seen, since it faces the floor of the car










Aluminum covers cover the track to keep the cables inside










..


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This rig is getting equipped with lots of charging options. The most important of all charging inlets to have in North America would be the regular old 3 prong 110 volt that we see on every wall of every home and business in America, since it is the most plentiful, so it is definitely getting one of those. While that 110 inlet is the most common, it is also the slowest possible way to charge an EV. Since this particular conversion is meant to be a luxury car, it absolutely must have a faster way to charge. This rig is getting a nema 6 50 for a much faster charge from the welder plugs in my home and at my shop. Although I am not particularly fond of the J plug, This rig will also get one of those. The fuel door is way too small to contain a j plug inlet, a nema 6 50 inlet, and a 110 volt normal inlet, so it will need a little bit of modification These modifications are not complete yet, but here are some pictures of a similar Cadillac that I found at Pick n Pull. 










As you can see, I have chopped out the fuel door, as well as a good bit of surrounding metal from the junker donor at the junk yard. Stay tuned to see how this stuff fits into my build...










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## EVisa (Jun 30, 2014)

Absolutely beautiful work (once again). 
I'm wondering whether 'DIY' is still appropriate? 
I would buy from you 

p.s. Good you got over your J-plug fobia . I might one day as well...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

EVisa said:


> Absolutely beautiful work (once again).
> I'm wondering whether 'DIY' is still appropriate?
> I would buy from you
> 
> p.s. Good you got over your J-plug fobia . I might one day as well...


Thanks for the good words.

I don't know if my distaste for the J plug has really been so much of a phobia, but rather a passionate hatred of being forced to comply with bureaucracy. The J plug appears to be a very nicely designed connection, and it would appear that the committees of engineers who came up with it did not hold back. In a land where there is a J plug connection on every wall of every home and business, I can't imagine any complaints that I might have with it, but in my country the J plug connection is almost non existent. The J plug connection may very well become the connection of the future, but until then it is just plain stupid to equip an EV with nothing but this obscure connection. I do see the merits of the connection itself, as well as the increased number of potential charging locations, so this car will get all of the connections. My position at this time is that he with the most charging inlet styles will have the most opportunities to charge. All the J plug places where manufactured EVs charge, plus any home or business in USA. The 6 50 inlet will allow faster charging than the network of already obsolete 30 amp J plug stations that government grants are funding, but if I need to, I can use the cute little 30 amp J plug stations too. There is nothing slower than a 110 3 prong, but I will always remember the fable that my parents read to me as a kid "The Tortoise and the Hare". Slow and steady charging from any building in the country...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The fuel door will be undergoing some surgery. The black line is the proposed cut line on the outside.










And the inside lines are already cut...

The chargers go in the trunk, as well as my various circuits that control the chargers, so it will be nice to have my AC inlets go straight into the trunk area. It will also be nice to service or change any of the inlets or inlet wiring from inside the trunk.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is what it looks like after the cuts have been made.










and here is the section that needs to be transplanted










and of course, here it is transplanted










inside view










and here is the concept, but there is still work to be done










the middle sections need some work still, and of course the doors will need to have the inboard corners squared off instead of having a radius. The idea is to have these double doors look less like two doors and more like one that was meant to be.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The idea here is to have a fuel door compartment that is big enough to hold this 50 amp, j plug, and 110v inlet. There should be plenty of room with the double fuel doors. Having that 110v inlet that you see in the pic all the way to the right is critical during these early years of such an inadequate EV charging grid, and this particular connection is not an option on a manufactured EV. No adapter needed for 110v, no funky cord with a big box in it either. Just plug in any old extension cord at any home or business in the United States.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The opening is starting to take on the right shape










Here, you can see why the radius of the inside corners needs to be squared off.










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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Somehow appropriate for that huge car to get a double refuelling door!

Amazing work, as usual...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Somehow appropriate for that huge car to get a double refuelling door!
> 
> Amazing work, as usual...


I was also thinking that the double fuel doors might fit in with the double motors, the double controllers, double chargers, double dc dc converters, and the double air conditioners. I also have my eyes on doubling the number of speakers in the back....


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Starting to square the inboard corners, stay tuned...










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the concept, at least the outside view of it. 










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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Very nice. Looks stock. First ever dual fuel door flaps.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Very nice. Looks stock. First ever dual fuel door flaps.


First ever suicide fuel flap...
Nice work Metro, you are going to have the biggest ever EV grin in history !


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> First ever suicide fuel flap...
> Nice work Metro, you are going to have the biggest ever EV grin in history !


Lol, these doors are spring loaded, and have a single electronic release solenoid, so it should be a pretty cool site when you push the electric release button. There is also an emergency pull cable release, in case anything ever happens to the 12 volt aux system. I have a feeling that it will look pretty neat to look in those double doors and see the first ever EV to be correctly engineered for universal charging in the United States power grid.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Next, we need a box for the inlets










Here is an inside view










and an outside view










Next, we need to put all three of those inlets were they go










Here is a flush j plug inlet










and a flush nema 6 50 inlet










here is how it will look when my extension cord is plugged into the big nema 6 50. 










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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very nice work! (as always!)


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Looks great! Just make sure, for the non J1772 plugs, that water has a way to get out. I'd worry that these buckets would fill with water when parked, even worse if it happens while charging. The way the NEMA 6-50 is arranged, the live and neutral will contact rising water before the ground will.

The plug fit is also tight enough that capillary action might work against you here as well.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Metro I do believe you are showing off now mate.
Il just have to go look at those welds again brb.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Ditto on the draining: strategically placed drain holes should do the trick, assuming you have a way to get the water out of the car again. Even though it is sheltered by virtue of being underneath the car during charging, it was still getting wet enough to do damage. I sizzled a couple extension cord sockets before I solved the problem. I now have a very low-tech solution to keeping water out of the plug/socket connection during charging that seems to be working well- it involves a silicone funnel and some silicone tape wrapping...


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## Electric A1 (Oct 16, 2016)

Looks like a very nice clean build so far! A pretty heavy car for an EV conversion, but then again, I know a guy who is converting a 1970 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, haha! Anyways, looks very nice, my goal is to do a conversion like this sometime in the future...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Electric A1 said:


> Looks like a very nice clean build so far! A pretty heavy car for an EV conversion, but then again, I know a guy who is converting a 1970 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, haha! Anyways, looks very nice, my goal is to do a conversion like this sometime in the future...



I have calculated (roughly) 4800 lbs finished weight, and of course 480 watt hours per mile from my 46,080 watt hour pack.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

evmetro said:


> Next, we need a box for the inlets
> ...
> Here is an inside view
> ...
> ...


Nice work indeed!! However it seems like a lot of trouble to do what a few adapter cables can do...

I just made two J1772 cordsets; one light-duty for 120V and a larger one for 240V applications. Keep it simple...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

azdeltawye said:


> Nice work indeed!! However it seems like a lot of trouble to do what a few adapter cables can do...
> 
> I just made two J1772 cordsets; one light-duty for 120V and a larger one for 240V applications. Keep it simple...


It is a bit more work, but it seems better to have the car engineered to "fit" the power grid here in USA than to have to "adapt" to it. OEM manufacturers are still building cars that need to "adapt" to the power grid, but one of the sweet things about DIY conversions is that you do not need to make the same mistakes as the OEM manufacturers. You can have the same obscure plug that the manufacturers use, AND the correct connections to properly connect to the USA power grid. 

The 220 connection, specifically, is a little different. We have several common connections for 220 here, but the nema 6 50 is the heaviest of these common connections. It makes sense if adapters are to be used to have the big 50 amp connection on the car. You could then use lighter duty connections as adapters between the 6 50 and the charge cord or outlet. In my case, the 6 50 especially makes sense, since I use 6 50 style extension cords in my shop for welders and equipment anyway. It was cheap to buy another 6 50 style cord for the house too. 

The J plug inlet is probably the most obscure connection in the USA at this point in history, which is why I don't focus on making adapters for it. I have that obscure connection handled in case I want to use it, but I focus on having the car "fit" the classic 110 and 220, since those are here to stay, done deal, sure thing, tried and true.


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

evmetro said:


> The J plug inlet is probably the most obscure connection in the USA at this point in history, which is why I don't focus on making adapters for it. I have that obscure connection handled in case I want to use it, but I focus on having the car "fit" the classic 110 and 220, since those are here to stay, done deal, sure thing, tried and true.


Unless you're only charging at your friends' dryer outlets, the J-1772 plug is by far the most common EV-charging capable outlet you'll find in public. The 110V outlet you will find quite useless for public EV charging.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

bigmouse said:


> Unless you're only charging at your friends' dryer outlets, the J-1772 plug is by far the most common EV-charging capable outlet you'll find in public. The 110V outlet you will find quite useless for public EV charging.


Lol, I live in the usa where public charging is not a legitimate term yet. The few that make up what little public charging that we do have are little 30 amp jobs, thanks to the federal gubment grants that funded so many of them. The day may come when "public charging" really means something, and this cadillac is being equipped to charge via those charging stations when that day comes. When I test out the connection, I can drive over to a nearby state building where there are four charging stations all in a row. Nobody uses them, since there is absolutely nothing to eat or do within walking distance, and they are so far off the beaten path. You can tell bureaucrats planned these stations, because of how far away from normal public activity they are, how all four of them are always vacant, and how they take up enough prime parking space for about 10 cars.

I have never considered trying to connect to a friend's dryer, but I did stop by a friend's house awhile back to pick up another 10 miles worth of charge. I rarely get myself in low SOC trouble, but on that day it did not look like I was going to make it. I checked from the freeway first, and he told me to bring it on in. All he had was a 110 cord in his small rental home, but it was plenty to give me those last 10 miles to get home. We had dinner and had fun BSing.
I also visit a couple lunch spots where I can plug into a 110 outlet. 110 is not my favorite way to charge, but it is everywhere. 

Regular old 220 through a nema 6 50 is the sweetest. 50 amps, and no need for a 50 amp charging station to get it. It is absolutely breathtaking how much some people pay to get a good quality 50 amp home charging station, but with regular old 220 through a nema 6 50, there is no need for an expensive home charging station. The 6 50 inlet costs less than 20 bucks at home depot. You just plug your car in like you would plug in a toaster, which is how we have plugged stuff in for more than 50 years now. A nema 6 50 is an excellent gateway to the largest charging grid in the world. If you have one of these, a 110 inlet, AND a J plug, you will have a much better time charging than those guys who only have a J plug.

I hereby coin a new phrase for the world of EV enthusiasts :

"He with the most connections charges in the most places".


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot of the trim ring/ spacer. The strip gives a more finished look around the inside perimeter of the charging compartment.










Here you can see how that trim ring looks. Also, take a careful look at the latches on the fuel doors (in this case only one fuel door is mounted, but you get the idea) in this pic. The metal catches for the fuel door releases are outboard, but outboard will obviously not work for the way the 3 inlets are configured. 










In this pic, you can see that the metal catches have been trimmed off of the outboard area, and have been moved to the top. You can also see the release mechanisms poking down from the top.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a shot of the inside, and how the charging inlets mount.










Here is a shot up into the wheel well Yes, the wheel cycles the full span of the suspension without any interference. The fuel filler tube used to go through this area, so there was already extra room to play with. Now the extra room is in the trunk instead of in the wheel well.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is a pic from a little further out. The steel rectangle shape of the charging compartment is not welded to the skin of the car, since this area does a lot of flexing as the car travels over uneven surfaces. 










This two part adhesive is very strong foam when it dries, and is actually what many car manufacturers use for this very purpose. The entire charging compartment sits about 3 mm away from the skin of the car, and the two part foam fills the gap while holding it to the skin. The original fuel compartment was held in the same way, and with the same stuff.










The DC DC converters are mounted here, and I like this location. There is still quite a bit more stuff to cram into this corner of the trunk....










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

One of the main themes for this particular car is that it is in fact a luxury car. I have gone pretty bare bones in the Geo Metro conversions that I have done as far as music and luxury, but those were built with efficiency in mind. This rig is a luxury car, so we a little bit more in the music department. It does not need to make big boom at the red lights, but it needs to sound very nice inside the car. Anyway, here are a couple amplifiers and some decent quality 6x9 speakers. The amps will go on the passenger side of the trunk, while all the charging related stuff goes on the drivers side of the trunk.










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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are a couple more components mounted. The back right component is inverter that makes 120vac from the main pack 160 vdc for the air conditioners. Front right is the shore power 120 vac or 240 vac to 12 vdc power supply that supplies 12 vdc while the vehicle is plugged in to shore power. The two components on the left are the two DC DC converters for 160 vdc to 13.8 vdc.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here are a few more components set up where they will go. The blue contactors above the charging inlets are for isolating the inlets, and the clear one is my main shore power connection that the BMS is in command of. The big fuse is for all the high voltage DC components in the back of the car. HVDC circuit from the pack will come back to that fuse, and then continue on to the smaller fuses. The big fuse here will protect the HVDC circuit for the chargers, and then all the smaller fuses come after that. If the big fuse blows for a charger, everything in the trunk goes out. Those anderson connectors will be fused right there with those smaller fuses that you see just below the big shawmut fuse. The smaller andersons are for the two DC DC converters, and the pack to 110 vac inverter. The hvdc relay will allow me to use the remote start on the key fob on the aftermarket alarm to remotely turn on the pack to 110 vac inverter, and of course the air conditioners that are plugged into it. I have tested this on the air conditioners, and they do come back on doing whatever they were doing before, as soon as they are plugged back in.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is how the inlets are isolated. Keep in mind that the primary inlet will be the 50 amp Nema 6/50, so I have it mapped out where the 110 and 240 coils won't be energized while using it. There is more contact resistance having more sets of contacts, but then the relay coils will only get energized if I need to charge via the J plug or the 110.

The AC DC power supply supplies 12 vdc to the Orion BMS as long as the car is plugged in, so the Orion always knows that the cord is there, even after the Orion turns off the third contactor in this diagram, the 12 volt coil one. The Orion can stop the controller from coming on if it sees 12 vdc from the ignition key switch at the same time as 12 vdc is being supplied by that AC DC power supply in this diagram. This prevents driving away while plugged in. This AC DC power supply seen just to the right of the two DC DC converters, also powers a variety of other charging mode circuits, such as Bluetooth, WIFI, charger relay circuits, the 12 volt coil contactor shown in the below diagram, and more.

Since the Orion sees the charging cord connection prior to the chargers getting connected, The Orion can verify that there are no faults prior to allowing current to flow through that 12 volt coil contactor in the diagram, and prior to activating the charger enable circuit. There is no way to plug a charge cord into the car and get an arc, since the charging inlets are never loaded until the Orion decides to load them.










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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

Evmetro, your fabrication, finishing, and painting skills are impressive!

I must say however, I find your decision-making highly questionable!

For example, you put in so much work to make the caddy RWD; why not just start with a RWD one?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

nucleus said:


> Evmetro, your fabrication, finishing, and painting skills are impressive!
> 
> I must say however, I find your decision-making highly questionable!
> 
> For example, you put in so much work to make the caddy RWD; why not just start with a RWD one?


One of the sweetest things about doing a DIY conversion instead of a manufactured EV, is that we can have whichever car we like, as well as having it how we like. I was very impressed when I first came to the DIY EV conversion scene, when I saw guys converting classic vehicles like VW and Porche, Jags, Mustangs, whatever the owner really wants. When one buys a turnkey manufactured EV, they must settle with how they look, as well as how they are equipped. A DIY conversion represents freedom, since you can pick whatever chassis that you want and like, you can build it how you like, and then outfit it with whatever equipment that you want or like. If the goal is simply to make a vehicle run on electric, it may make more sense to just buy a used pre manufactured EV, but if your goal is to convert the exact chassis you like, the way you like, with whatever equipment you like, then DIY conversion is for you.

I did my first few conversions on Geo Metros, which is a chassis that is known to make a whole lot of sense for an EV. The efficiency is great, the cost is small, and they are less complex. However, the Metro only makes the most sense if the goal is efficiency, cost, and being easy to convert. For the guys who love the classic VW and Porche, the classic VW or Porche will make the most sense, and of course for the guy who happens to like the look of an Eldorado and wants a luxury electric Eldorado, this chassis and design makes the most sense. When we put the time and money into building an EV, it makes a lot of sense to do it to a vehicle that we really like and want to drive, and of course to build it how we want it.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

EV métro ... that is the kind of response I think no-one can argue with ! I 100% agree with what your saying . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

nucleus said:


> Evmetro, your fabrication, finishing, and painting skills are impressive!
> 
> I must say however, I find your decision-making highly questionable!
> 
> For example, you put in so much work to make the caddy RWD; why not just start with a RWD one?


Evmetro's choice of later modern Cadillac makes perfect logic.

Lighter, better weight to strength, modern accessories, easy to find parts.
His donor is more or less rust free.

The same effort for drive line has to go into an original RWD conversion anyway, the older the model, the sooner all original suspension has to go.

EVmetro is showing us the mid-engine EV PowerGlide/IRS config, perfect choice for any mid-sized American sedan, muscle car or kit.


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## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

evmetro said:


> One of the sweetest things about doing a DIY conversion instead of a manufactured EV, is that we can have whichever car we like, as well as having it how we like. I was very impressed when I first came to the DIY EV conversion scene, when I saw guys converting classic vehicles like VW and Porche, Jags, Mustangs, whatever the owner really wants. When one buys a turnkey manufactured EV, they must settle with how they look, as well as how they are equipped. A DIY conversion represents freedom, since you can pick whatever chassis that you want and like, you can build it how you like, and then outfit it with whatever equipment that you want or like. If the goal is simply to make a vehicle run on electric, it may make more sense to just buy a used pre manufactured EV, but if your goal is to convert the exact chassis you like, the way you like, with whatever equipment you like, then DIY conversion is for you.
> 
> I did my first few conversions on Geo Metros, which is a chassis that is known to make a whole lot of sense for an EV. The efficiency is great, the cost is small, and they are less complex. However, the Metro only makes the most sense if the goal is efficiency, cost, and being easy to convert. For the guys who love the classic VW and Porche, the classic VW or Porche will make the most sense, and of course for the guy who happens to like the look of an Eldorado and wants a luxury electric Eldorado, this chassis and design makes the most sense. When we put the time and money into building an EV, it makes a lot of sense to do it to a vehicle that we really like and want to drive, and of course to build it how we want it.


Amen......


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

evmetro said:


> One of the sweetest things about doing a DIY conversion instead of a manufactured EV, is that we can have whichever car we like, as well as having it how we like. I was very impressed when I first came to the DIY EV conversion scene, when I saw guys converting classic vehicles like VW and Porche, Jags, Mustangs, whatever the owner really wants. When one buys a turnkey manufactured EV, they must settle with how they look, as well as how they are equipped. A DIY conversion represents freedom, since you can pick whatever chassis that you want and like, you can build it how you like, and then outfit it with whatever equipment that you want or like. If the goal is simply to make a vehicle run on electric, it may make more sense to just buy a used pre manufactured EV, but if your goal is to convert the exact chassis you like, the way you like, with whatever equipment you like, then DIY conversion is for you.
> 
> I did my first few conversions on Geo Metros, which is a chassis that is known to make a whole lot of sense for an EV. The efficiency is great, the cost is small, and they are less complex. However, the Metro only makes the most sense if the goal is efficiency, cost, and being easy to convert. For the guys who love the classic VW and Porche, the classic VW or Porche will make the most sense, and of course for the guy who happens to like the look of an Eldorado and wants a luxury electric Eldorado, this chassis and design makes the most sense. When we put the time and money into building an EV, it makes a lot of sense to do it to a vehicle that we really like and want to drive, and of course to build it how we want it.


Hey all for building what you want go for it! I agree 100%.

I just think there are nicer RWD caddies... But more power to you man.


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## Sterling2015 (Jun 24, 2015)

My first choice is: Cadillac Eldorado 8 wheeler.
This one is ICE but needs conversion to Dual AMR 250s front and back, full 60kWh Tesla module.
This one comes with a barbeque and jacuzzi but I would remove them to save weight.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

All right, back to the build...

Here is a shot of the panel that covers all the contactors, DC DC inverters, fuses, etc. Just under the cover panel, you can see four Anderson connectors. Two of these four 175 amp Anderson connectors are for my AC current coming into the two chargers, and the other two are for the DC current coming out of the chargers. The idea here is that each charger can be easily plugged in or unplugged if I need to pull one out for service. 












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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There are many options on what to do with the aluminum cover. I could just cover it in speaker carpet, or some nicer carpet, but I could also polish this and all the air conditioning work. The panel is flat, which means I could also put a cool little plexiglass window in it with some lighting back there like they used to do for car audio back in the 1990s. I will worry about this later, and get the passenger side of the trunk done for now.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

These two components are wrapped in yellow masking tape, so that they don't get scratched up during install. They are the two amplifiers that will provide the high quality sound for this EV.










These two amplifiers will be mounted in the right hand quarter panel, on this aluminum mounting panel.










Here is the panel is mounted where it goes. Two bolts on the bottom, one near the trunk spring, and one at the front behind the hinge.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here, the mounting panel is prepared for the amps to be mounted.










Here is the panel mounted to the car, and the amps mounted to the panel.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Dammit - I do like your fabrication skills!
The bits I make work but they never look as good as yours


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## EVTechsFL (Jan 10, 2017)

O I C I totally misunderstood. I was thinking something along these lines when I read about an Electric ElDorado. :>)


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Very nice! I always like seeing your top-notch fabrication skills on display!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Here is the panel that close in the amplifiers












Here, the rear package tray has been rearranged a little to hold four 6x9 speakers, instead of the original two. 












The package tray needed a little bit of bracing, since it has already been modified quite a bit for the air conditioning evaporator in and out ducts. Speakers sound better when they are mounted to a solid surface.











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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm looking forward to driving my Tesla Model 3 up to see this car in your shop. haha. Seriously, its coming along nicely. Looking forward to visiting with you next time I'm in Sacramento visiting family.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

The hood needed a little reshaping so that it would close on top of the big battery pack that is in the way. Just a little notch out of it to clear the corner of the battery box.










The sides of the cut out need to be closed off, so here is an end filler










Here it is in place










Now two end fillers in place










Here is the center filler










And here is the complete modification all welded up. Now it will close nicely and there will be enough clearance for the battery box.










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## BuildMore (Oct 28, 2016)

Others might simply relieve the hood by cutting away the the part that interferes. This would leave the hood and latch mount weaker, and problems would surface over time. You, sir, play chess with the project, and think many moves ahead. Your forethought, and your attention to detail are always inspiring. 

Bravo!


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Next is the climate control system. As you may have seen earlier in the thread, there are two window air conditioners fabbed into the trunk, with all the needed air inlets and outlets. The air will be transferred to into the dash via flex ducting from the back to the front, so this is where I will pick up.

The driver and passenger each get their own air conditioners and heaters,as well as full control of their own fans and ducts. Each side of the car has it's own isolated duct , and each will lead to it's own control box shown as shown below. The air enters the box via the squirrel cage fan, and is then pushed through the box. The ceramic heater elements are contained within the box, two per box, so that the driver and passenger each get their own 3000 watts of heat as needed. The little red motors were meant to be exhaust cut outs for hot rods, but here they are re purposed as duct controls. The driver and passenger each get their own defrost, face, and feet controls, and these motors will be controlled like power windows. The motors for the face ducts are further downstream in the dash, so they don't show here.

Here are the two ceramic element shrouds that fit inside the box










Here is the squirrel cage that pulls the air from the back of the car











And here is a view of the box itself











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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

EV whats happnin with your masterpiece.
Il assume you are havin so much fun drivin it around you dont have time to post anymore ??


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> EV whats happnin with your masterpiece.
> Il assume you are havin so much fun drivin it around you dont have time to post anymore ??


Still making progress on it from time to time, but have been caught up in various business ventures. I can't tell if this site is going to be around much longer, but I will keep an eye on it.


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## koolkev (Jan 15, 2010)

Did you finish the Caddi? 


evmetro said:


> Still making progress on it from time to time, but have been caught up in various business ventures. I can't tell if this site is going to be around much longer, but I will keep an eye on it.


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