# Looking for an ideal car for EV converting!



## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Hello to all!

I am glad to have landed here in this great forum! 
My name is Kirill and I live in Germany!

I am fascinated by e-cars, because they only one disadvantage is: the battery!
Look onto the ones of ICE cars! Thats horrible!

But nevermind, I am thinking and calculating...how to build the ideal e-car and I got an idea: The more modern the car, the more weight it has, so why not buy a modern one (with damaged motor to keep it cheap) and throw out all unnessecary (electric etc.) components to make more weight space for lead batteries?

Please tell me what you think!

Thanks to all!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I think that there is no point in using lead batteries since lithium is better value in the long term...

My BMW is just a little heavier than the standard car with over 300 kg of lithium batteries in it.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Sorry, but with desulfating technology and low initial cost lead batteries come to an interesting point, so no worries about lithium!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

I would suggest determining how you will use the vehicle and selecting a vehicle to meet those needs. As an example, if two person carrying capacity is all you need, a small pickup like the S10 will provide plenty of space for batteries. If appearance is of concern, they can be tarted up to look quite sporty.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

KirillSp said:


> I am thinking and calculating...how to build the ideal e-car and I got an idea: The more modern the car, the more weight it has, so why not buy a modern one (with damaged motor to keep it cheap) and throw out all unnessecary (electric etc.) components to make more weight space for lead batteries?
> 
> Please tell me what you think!
> 
> Thanks to all!


Hiya,

That would seem to be one of the main ways folks like us get into converting. Buy a fairly modern car with a dead engine and then convert. That is what I am doing with an MR2.

However, as you say, modern cars are heavy but it is not just the ICE. there are lot of other components and safety devices and build strength that adds to the weight.
Sometimes I think a much older car would give a lighter conversion without complicated electrical and mechanical stock components to consider.
But then there is the modern safety stuff to weight it against.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

A pickup truck would be somewhat too big for me, but basically you are right, it could carry more batteries with it.

The problem is, that I tried to find out if an existing car (an old one too) that can be modified for being able to carry more weight, but I have been told that it is not possible or would cost too much.
So is it really not possible?


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

A very lightweight and ideal battery pack storage space vehicle would be the Porsche 550 Spyder by www.vintagespyders.com
You can drive the front wheels with the motor using double wish-bone suspension and place the batteries in the rear section under the clam-shell body panel.
The total weight using an AC-31 motor and Life batteries is around 1250lbs.
I have designed double wish-bone suspension for the front/rear of the 550 Spyder chassis,using Ducati 1098 pin-drive center-lock wheels/brakes.
The lighter the chassis,the lower the cost to build the EV,as long as you are not using exotic materials.
Regards,
John


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Woodsmith, why just dont take out the weighty components?

Sunworksco, I think it could be good to have a car with an as low as possible weight and as high as possible allowed weight by manufacturers. Any examples?


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

GoGoMobil


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

KirillSp said:


> Woodsmith, why just dont take out the weighty components?


I think much of the weight is from all the black boxes that control all the electric gadgets on the car and keep it moving and stopping.
Unnecessary things that have no manual option like electric windows, mirrors, pop up head lights and steerable fog lights.

I have stripped out a lot of useless rubbish from the ICE already and I am looking for removing anything else I can, maybe even the passenger seat.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Greetings KirillSp. Have you looked at Evalbum.com. There are hundreds of converted cars of all ages and types described there. Good luck. Norm


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

KirillSp said:


> Sunworksco, I think it could be good to have a car with an as low as possible weight and as high as possible allowed weight by manufacturers. Any examples?


Morris Mini Traveller
Opel Kadett wagon
Ford Thames
Ford Fiesta
Hillman Husky
Reliant Robin Panel/Wagon
Any Renault up to R10
Citroen 2CV
Citroen Ami 6 Estate
Fiat Giardiniera
VW Fox Wagon
Crossley Wagon
Simca Aronde

I personally love the little wagons on this list. They tend to have a higher GVWR than the passenger cars they're based on, more room for (and better access to) batteries under the rear floor, and what's left over is much more usable cargo space than 1/2 of a tiny trunk. Of course, like me, most of the cars on my list are 40-50 years old...

TomA


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

VW Rabbit Pickup?

Many of these have a 4000 lb. GVWR and they only weigh 2000 lb. (3/4 ton rating.) Once the fuel tank is removed there is a large area under the bed between the cab and rear axle. Unlike most Pickups this space doesn't have to be shared with a driveshaft.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

EVfun said:


> VW Rabbit Pickup?
> 
> Many of these have a 4000 lb. GVWR and they only weigh 2000 lb. (3/4 ton rating.) Once the fuel tank is removed there is a large area under the bed between the cab and rear axle. Unlike most Pickups this space doesn't have to be shared with a driveshaft.


Yes, I forgot the Caddy. Unfortunately, the biodeisel guys are hording all the good ones. 

There are a couple of similar vehicles out there, too:

Subaru Brat
Dodge Rampage/Plymouth Scamp


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

A couple more that I actually look for from time to time:

Saab Sonnet III
A Lotus- yes, _any_ Lotus.

The late Sonnet is particularly good, because its suspension components were designed for the heavier 93/94/95/96 model Saabs.

The Loti are good because they are just so incredibly light- all of them! A four seat Lotus Elite without the ICE gear might be 1750 lbs. A stripped Europa could be under 1100.

TomA


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for the many nice suggestions!
What about kit cars? Ive seen that they can be also incredibly light (about 1300 lbs), but I dunno about the maximum carryable weight...


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

TomA said:


> Yes, I forgot the Caddy. Unfortunately, the biodeisel guys are hording all the good ones.
> 
> There are a couple of similar vehicles out there, too:
> 
> ...


How about the Pinto. No body is hording those 
And they make a wagon version as well 

The ones that came with a V6 also came with the Ford 8" Rear end 

Those are typically plenty strong enough for a daily driver (better than the one in my little pickup) but if you really need strength a For 9" can easily be swapped in.

And, rack & pinion steering. Some came with assist but you can chose to use it or not. Mine works fine without.

Mike


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Nah, Pintos are slow 

Actually, I'm quite the fan of RWD economy boxes. That is why I have a '66 Datsun wagon. It makes your Pinto look really big.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Nah, Pintos are slow
> 
> Actually, I'm quite the fan of RWD economy boxes. That is why I have a '66 Datsun wagon. It makes your Pinto look really big.


Yeah, does your wagon do 12.47 second 1/4 miles 
I will admit though that doing over 100 mph in a Pinto is kinda scary 

...likely your wagon too 

Will see you in July, likely?

Mike


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

KirillSp said:


> Thanks for the many nice suggestions!
> What about kit cars? Ive seen that they can be also incredibly light (about 1300 lbs), but I dunno about the maximum carryable weight...


 I have the e-mail address of a German fellow who manufactures the metal body kit parts for a Hebmuller VW.You need an early VW beetle to convert but it would make a very lightweight ev.Check out this Hebmuller forum.
Regards,
John

http://beetle.cabriolets.online.fr/tech/hebmuller.html

http://hebsite.com/?page_id=74

http://forums.pre67vw.com/Default.aspx?g=topics&f=6


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## pinetree (Jun 10, 2010)

sunworksco said:


> A very lightweight and ideal battery pack storage space vehicle would be the Porsche 550 Spyder by www.vintagespyders.com
> You can drive the front wheels with the motor using double wish-bone suspension and place the batteries in the rear section under the clam-shell body panel.
> The total weight using an AC-31 motor and Life batteries is around 1250lbs.
> I have designed double wish-bone suspension for the front/rear of the 550 Spyder chassis,using Ducati 1098 pin-drive center-lock wheels/brakes.
> ...


So why spend the money on a 550 reproduction body shell? A Porsche 914 with a dead motor can be had for under $2000- just watch for one without much rust. Lead-acid conversions have been common on these for a quarter-century, the company that makes the 'Voltswagen' conversion kit makes one tailored for the 914, and there's a forum on the 914 conversion. Why reinvent the wheel? Just re-do your 914 with lithium if you have the funds. OK- no air bags-- do a Miata if you want bags.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

just watch for one without much rust
That is the problem.You are going to get something rusty and something needing at least $10,000 in the interior and body restoration.They are so rare and ones that need an engine are even rarer.They are too heavy , as well.The engine access is miserable.Ask any Porsche mechanic!
Better to buy a very lightweight vehicle.Some ev builders don't get it.The heavier the chassis,the more expense the battery pack and propulsion system.The great thing about the 550 Spyder is that the rear body section clamshells for better access for batteries.
Regards,
John


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

We say go with a Mazda Miata. Lightweight, well built, similiar drivelines from 1990 to 2003, _usually_ well taken care of by previous owners, and they are fun to drive. Even with a lead acid pack they can have a final weight around 2700 lbs-less than 2500 with lithium.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Don't get me wrong! I love the Porsche 914 and the Miata but you can have a 550 Spyder fully loaded ,ready to rip, with lithium batteries weighing only 1300lbs.!Less than half the weight of Miata.Talk about nimble!Has all of what Uncle Ferdinand insisted on.
I'm sort of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your -pants kinda guy.Please give me no ac,power steering,assisted brakes or airbags!
Regards.
John
Regards,
John


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

I agree with sunworksco on this one. The Porsche Spyder is just way cool. Check this all Electric 550 Spyder : http://www.ohler.com/ev/spyder/history.html

He is even running a Kostov Motor. Sweet. The older Kostov's are a good choice too. I have two.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

An AC31 motor will fit in the front end with belt-drive and the battery pack/contoller in the rear.This would make a 50/50 weight distribution and give much more advantage to the brake regeneration.
Vintage Spyders will let you buy just the bare chassis and build your drive-train/battery pack,then he will bond the body to that.I have all of the designs for building double wish-bone suspensions for front/rear of the chassis.I also have access to Ducati 1098/Porsche hubs to use Ducati pin-drive centerlock wheels/brakes.
Regards,
John


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

Why go to all the trouble to redesign a proven vehicle. You get a custom chassis and you use the proven VW/Porsche suspension and be done with it. The AC motor will fit in the back too. The weight can be balanced easy if you go with lithium and remain light weight. Getting a decent AC with controller is the key. I want fast. Most AC are anemic from what I have been gathering. They are OK but finding a good one that is affordable is a tough call. 

I'd not waste my time building a front motor belt driven Spyder. Get the basic kit and put in a DC and lithium and you are good to go. Balance can be very good and remember that these cars are designed for rear engine but the batteries can easily be put just forward of the motor and some up front too. Should be a piece-o-cake for that. It would be fast and fun. If you can get a nice AC I'd go for that instead but if not a good DC will do just fine. Did you look at all the photos from the link I sent? Weight forward of the rear axle will give you a very nice handling vehicle. My Ghia handled well beyond the normal parameters of a Stock Gas Engine Ghia. It hugged the road and took hard turns with no effort and held the road and it was an excellent experience. I had my battery weight forward of the rear axle. 

This is a fine example of rear motor and weight forward for superior handling. 













Pete


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Still too much weight in the rear of this Spyder!
The Spyder IS a proven vehicle but has it's limitations as far as handling and balance.They tend to crab at high speed and extreme deceleration and lose control.I know the history and design of the race car very intimitely.
With added weight to the rear and antique suspension,you are asking for the tail to do the steering instead of the front suspension!
There are several 550 Porsche Spyder kits with extreme variations of chassis design and suspension modifications.The Europeans are using chassis designs with full wishbone suspensions.These keep the chassis flat during cornering and create better tire patch contact.We would not have much in car design if we did not tinker with what works.Why do new Porsches use double wish-bone?It is because of better handling
Belt-drive is lighter,more compact and less maintenance.
You can get better gearing choices ,as well.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

I will not refute that the New Porsche Design is better. However if I were to look at in a practical point and cheaper point I'd be smart and just buy a Porsche glider and convert that as many are doing now. I like the look and I know that the handling aspects of the Spyder are good. They are better if the weight is just forward of the rear axle like I said. It is proven that mid engine or mid weight is better than rear or forward weight. The matter of the suspension the trailing arm front suspension has proven in all sorts of racing applications but tends to be a bit heavier than the double wishbone or arm style suspensions. The rear swing axle can be converted easy to an IRS which is well suited for harder cornering and not crabbing or tucking like the old swing arm suspensions. I still think that the belt drive is not going to be the best as it will be a long belt from the front to the rear. How are you going to deal with that? My experience with long belts or chains is that they tend to flop around and are not as stable as a short chain or belt. Even with tensioners long belts and chains can present problems. My book says if you go with belt or chain, keep them short or within reason. Front to rear of a vehicle seems beyond reasonable in length. 

I just stuck with the plain old VW platform. For most conversions the speed factor is not really an issue and if you go beyond the limits of the design you are going to ask for trouble. There are plenty of fixes to increase the reliability of the old VW including using the swing axle. I have driven plenty beyond the normal parameters of design with some modifications and have had no trouble. The best was when I drove my EV Ghia with it's weight forward of the rear axle. It was low and has a swing axle and standard king pin trailing arm front suspension. It handled very well with no amount of fishtailing or crabbing. It just went flat and fast. Very little roll. Far better than a stock Bug or Ghia. 

Pete 

I'd like to see your design for the front motor and belt driven rear. Or are you speaking of putting the motor in the front and driving the front?


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

The AC31 motor and belt-drive is located in a front-wheel-drive system.There is plenty of room ahead and low of the front suspension for the motor.The front-wheel-drive is from Palotov.He also makes the Ducati/Porsche pin-drive-center-lock hubs.This chassis will never roll over unless it is on a down-slope!
Here is the Palotov web-link: http://www.palatov.com/products/suspension.html
He has the best suspension,uprights and hubs for the custom chassis builder.
Regards,
John


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

That is a sweet little ride. I like those suspension components. I would agree with you on your choice. I'd still like the rear motor setup but I guess front would do too. Interesting, a front wheel drive Porsche 550 Sypder. Mmmmmmm. If you build it I will be watching with great interest. 

Pete


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi Pete,
I will keep you posted.
You live not far from me,right?
Meet me at the Pheasant Club and I will buy the beer!
Regards,
John


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Yup, Sunworksco has another deep-end solution where the suspension components alone cost more than almost any glider or repro chassis that would support a pretty straightforward conversion. This CAD/Ducati/scratchbuilt OEM-quality thinking is (maybe) going to produce a superior vehicle, but its also going to be a $100,000 and 2 year build unless the builder has tons of tools, computer and fabrication skills, free time and the interest to engineer and construct the whole thing.

What's amusing to me is that this sort of thinking is the only way you go, John- your suggestion is always the most expensive, difficult and elaborate approach.

I think this thread started off with "what is an ideal glider to convert?"

Certainly, a relatively expensive kit car that then gets cut up to support a custom-fabbed drivetrain and suspension that no one has done before isn't exactly what I would think of as an ideal conversion candidate. True enough, I'm actually doing something requiring a fair amount of fabrication, but I don't recommend it if what you want is to get on the road cheaply and quickly with a conversion.

Over & out,

TomA


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Tom,
The most expensive build would be to start from scratch rather than use a kit car chassis and off-the-shelf suspension.I can build the complete 550 Porsche Spyder EV for less than $30,000.00 not anywhere your estimate of $100,000.00!The last time I checked new manufactured EV prices they were around $50,000.00-$120,000.00
You are a real Killjoy and Cheap-Cheap Policeman Tom!
It is the same old attacks on how cheap Tom can build an EV and how expensive custom suspension parts are for my build.Go make a Stickey so it can be the law!
Not everyone builds your way either! Not everyone is building on a shoestring here.My EV will not cost anything close to $100,000.00! And no software engineering is needed.It just takes some elbow grease and resourcing the parts.The engineering already exists on the internet and is free to download.
DIYELECTRICCAR forum is about building an ev with your best abilities and parts , not the cheapest ev wins the contest.Maybe your ev will win that contest and I'm sure that mine will not but this forum is more about sharing ev building/engineering not attacking each other for not building your way.
I am only giving options on the way I am planning to build.
Everyone is free to have his or her own build but they can glean many ideas from everyone's varied comments.
And,Tom,Heaven forbid that someone builds an EV that no one else has ever built before!
Regards,
John


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

Just a question about the Spyder - how do you get the weight to 1300lbs?

I am building a Locost type unit with about 300Kg of batteries and a heavy motor (102 Kg)
my expected weight is 770Kg 1690lbs

I have not been aiming for absolute minimum weight but 300 lbs lighter?


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

sunworksco said:


> The engineering already exists on the internet and is free to download.


Good luck with that...

TomA


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> Just a question about the Spyder - how do you get the weight to 1300lbs?
> 
> ...


Not sure if you can but even with that it is a damn light vehicle. With lithium I am sure it will be a very nice light weight vehicle. As for Suncoworks, if you can make your idea work that would be great. It sure would be an interesting build. Not one that I would do even if I were an engineer or had the money but interesting non the less. You might even source the suspension parts for less if you are savvy enough. I am quite certain that the components are out there for the asking. As for the engineering plans free on the internet I'd be a bit more skeptical. What your saying or how I am taking what your saying is that plans already exist for these suspension components to be fabricated to the Porsche 550 Spyder Kit. If that is the case then it's more a matter of sourcing the parts and assembly. No engineering required. That would be nice. I will look forward to the day your project begins in ernest. 

Pete


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

sunworksco said:


> Tom,
> I can build the complete 550 Porsche Spyder EV for less than $30,000.00 not anywhere your estimate of $100,000.00!


You can get angry with me and call me a cheap a$$ and all that, but I wasn't criticizing your style, just challenging your answer that a 550 spyder kit car as you suggested modifying it is "an ideal car for EV converting."

I like expensive builds. I'd do one if I could. I don't think you do them. Your claim that you could do this Vintage Spider for $30k is about half of what a seriously talented fabricator would spend on it doing _almost all the work himself. _Let's have a quick look:

Vintage 550 Spyder Deluxe Kit: $14,000 no suspension, drive or paint.
AC 31 Motor/Curtis Controller: $ 4,200
Palatov Uprights & Brakes: $ 4,500
LiFePO4 60x100Ah Cells: $ 7,500
Wheels & Tires: $ 1,200

That's $31,400, and doesn't include:

Battery Racks
HV Wiring
12V battery/DC/DC system
Contactors and switchgear
Battery Charger
Instrumentation
BMS
Suspension arms and brackets
Springs and dampers
Brake master cyl. & lines
Primary & Final Drive system
Steering
Final blocking and paint
Little bits- pedals, fittings, etc.
Any money for mistakes
_Any labor at all_

There's a lot of expensive parts in that list, and they can't all be sourced from the junkyard or used on ebay. Also, I don't know how many cars you've built, John, but that's an awfully big list of work to do by yourself in your garage. If you can't do it yourself in your garage, then paying people to do these things gets expensive fast. 

Blocking and paint could be $3,000-$7,500 in a good paint shop. The suspension arms and belt drive systems are really difficult things to get right the first time. That could easily be $5,000 in fabricated parts, even if you're doing the designs yourself, and especially if you had to start over at some point. I will stick by my assessment that this build should have a $100,000 budget because that is what I would tell a customer: Don't try this unless you are an experienced racing fabricator, or you know one and have $100k to throw at the project.

I know a couple of guys who could definitely handle this build. I know a few more who probably could, but wouldn't touch it. None of those guys talk the way you do about how easy it is to fold and bond foam aluminum sheets or fabricate belt drives out of Ducati and Porsche parts, and how its all so easy and straightforward because you can look it up on the internet. Your style reveals a lot about your experience, John.

Yes, I'm cheap and careful, and I _always _push back on cost estimates for things that aren't on the shelf ready to buy. If my style irritates you, that's fine. My customers love that about me, and in my experience I'm usually pretty good at estimating what things are actually going to cost to get done. That's how I separate real craftsmen and reliable suppliers from guys who just don't know how to do what they want me to pay for, or don't manage their time, people or businesses well. 

That doesn't make me the cheap police, John. I love your deep-end style and I like hearing these elaborate responses from you to every problem that comes up, but I suspect you don't provide the work you describe here to paying customers who demand to know when and how much before they pay anything. That's how you get to be cheap and careful, and also how things actually get made for people, as far as I know. I also don't believe that you've actually tried most of the techniques you suggest that others take on, and I'm quite sure that they are more difficult and expensive to do than you want them to be or tell others they are.

Blame me for that if you need to. I'm just replying to your suggestions for the benefit of other people who might not realize that what you are routinely suggesting they do, interesting as it may be, is probably a product of your mind and not your experience. 

TomA


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

I vaguely remember an article in I think it was Life magazine in the 60’s about a race team that hid a 550 in a cave in the mountains of Cuba right after Castro took over. They said they managed to prepare it for storage before they fled. I hope American/Cuban relations’ thaws enough to go get the car before I die. I want to see what the car looks like after all these years. If sunworksco is so willing to buy the beer I will relocate.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

I saw a car that was put into a time capsule and buried and when they opened it up it was just a hulk of a rust bucket. They did not protect it against any moisture. It was a nasty mess. I have seen better that were left to the elements above ground. 

Pete


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I saw a car that was put into a time capsule and buried and when they opened it up it was just a hulk of a rust bucket. They did not protect it against any moisture. It was a nasty mess. I have seen better that were left to the elements above ground.
> 
> Pete


I think the one you are talking about was in Oklahoma. It is a 57 plymouth. I saw it and it was a mess. Obviously they did not do it right. I drive a fiat and have had several through the years. Although I have never had any real rust issues to hear some tell it Fiats were rusting as they came off the assembly line. Maybe rust is a good thing. The more it rusts the lighter it gets. I heard one guy say the Vega he owned was made out of compressed rust. So a Vega might be a perfect car. On second thought I would stick with the Spyder.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

The problem with the Plymouth is that is was put in a shallow hole dug underground, in a concrete container that cracked and leaked. It was a silly plan bound to fail.

A dry cave or a mine is a whole other story. You could keep something there indefinitely, as many business records (and frozen food) storage companies do in the limestone caves around Kansas City, and elsewhere out west. The KC limestone facilities are so huge, well insulated and temperature stable that whole railcars of frozen food can be wheeled in, and kept below zero with little more than a window air conditioner.

A car properly put up in a dry cave could be perfect for many, many years.

TomA


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I keep forgetting that Tom's EV shop is on a mission from God to build EVs like no other person on this Earth can!
I have been fabricating parts and building vehicles for 45 years.I have the experience and resources to build an ev.I have prototyped many new parts.I also have been in consultation with worldwide EV drive-train engineers/suppliers to carmakers for many years.
Tom's 550 Porsche Spyder parts list is not my list.My parts are different and still comes under budget but Tom likes to put the "scare tactics" out there so a builder may think about bringing his conversion to an ev conversion garage.
And , Yes you can buy Porsche 996/7 rear suspension and graft it successfully to the Vintage Spyder chassis.It has already been accomplished and performs very well.I am using Ducati 1098 brakes and wheels,not Palotov's.I'm using Palotov's uprights and wish-bones/control rods.
Tom.The more you tell someone on this forum that it can't be done,the more they will disprove that!
Regards,
John


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

sunworksco said:


> Tom.The more you tell someone on this forum that it can't be done,the more they will disprove that!
> Regards,
> John


That would be a great result and I very much encourage you to do just that. I've been surprised many times, John, and that's what makes this hobby so interesting and so much fun. Go for it!

TomA


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Thank you Tom.
Regards,
John


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