# Best battery bang for the buck??



## grose (Apr 30, 2008)

I think if you go with flooded golf cart batteries you'll be staying on the cheap end of things. AGM batteries are high priced, but less to maintain. Research before you buy!


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Depends on which BANG you want - power, range, or lifespan.

You *can* get two of those at once, but sometimes you only get to pick one - the other one is decided for you.

For pure range, GC batteries have an edge due to current economies of scale. It has been said from the EVDL that Enersys 'Genesis' AGMs can give you crazy gobs of power in a light package, and are built very tough (thus last longer then other AGMs). But if you want long long life and great range, Lithium *might* give you a better total return for your buck - but it better be a REALLY big buck. NiCad (if you can find em) are supposed to last forever (30 years or so) and cost much less then LiOn. They used them in military aircraft for a reason...


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

VDubber said:


> They used them in military aircraft for a reason...


because procurement is glacial?


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## dpringle (Jun 17, 2008)

VDubber said:


> It has been said from the EVDL that Enersys 'Genesis' AGMs can give you crazy gobs of power in a light package, and are built very tough (thus last longer then other AGMs)...


is this the battery you are talking about?  

Sorry, I'm a newbie and just started looking for my supplies...

Donor will be here this weekend and I want a plan in place even if I won't be finishing for a while....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Try these, the Enersys Odyssey battery:
http://www.batterystore.com/Odyssey/OdysseyProducts.htm?gclid=CP3Wypueq5ECFQYcHgodvmf8XA
I think they are the same as the Hawker.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

best bang for the buck with a 3 year warranty is the wal-mart deep cycle. 12v 125 amp hours. at 73 bucks a pop.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

wouldnt it be great to have a sticky on this?

for example some type of grid that compares basic features...

volts
cranking amps
amp hours
approx cost
weight
quality rating 1-5...etc...


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## OnlineAtvSalvage (May 28, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> best bang for the buck with a 3 year warranty is the wal-mart deep cycle. 12v 125 amp hours. at 73 bucks a pop.



I didnt even think about Wal-mart ,, Thanks.. I was looking for around 200 amp hours pack and 96v system. soo If i buy 16 (8 in parallel then 8 in series)it will be $1,168. That will give me 96 volts and 250 amp hours? correct or do i have it wrong?

i've found a site for 6 volt Trojans T105s 225 amp hrs for $140 a piece.
If i bought 16 of these place them in parallel that will give me my 96v and 225 amp hours but cost me $2,240

If that is the case then why not go for the Wal-mart ones


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> best bang for the buck with a 3 year warranty is the wal-mart deep cycle. 12v 125 amp hours. at 73 bucks a pop.


I bought one of those for my electric fishing boat (a john boat with a big 12V trolling motor) two years ago. It works well enough for my 20-60A needs, but you get what you pay for. And the vents will leak a little bit with a good jiggling - acid mats would be needed.

You will NOT get 600 cycles out of this battery with the currents an EV draws. I would hazard around 150-300 tops. And I am being nice 

So it would be the same "bang for your buck" as the better brands. It seems that the Costco 6V/205AH golf cart has been getting good reviews from EV users lately. And at only $50-65, it's not too shabby.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

look at the warrenty though. thats the kicker. its better than any I have seen.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> look at the warrenty though. thats the kicker. its better than any I have seen.


That is why I bought it there instead of those icky relabeled NAPA Exides... I did say two years ago. And it is still running. Just not many cycles on it - about 50 or so.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Try these, the Enersys Odyssey battery:
> http://www.batterystore.com/Odyssey/OdysseyProducts.htm?gclid=CP3Wypueq5ECFQYcHgodvmf8XA
> I think they are the same as the Hawker.


Yes, those ARE the original MIL-SPEC Hawkers (the ones that John Wayland talks about in his blog - also called AeroBatteries, and used to set a couple EV records)

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=144
http://www.odysseybattery.com/

They are also sold as the Enersys 'Genesis XE' series. Complete Genesis EP/XE Application Manual with technical data and graphs:

http://www.batterystore.com/Yuasa/YuasaPDF/GenesisApManual.pdf


A drycell (starved electrolyte), pressurized (pre-compressed plates), pure lead thin plate lead acid battery with brass terminals (not soft lead). The were used in tanks and such IIRC. They exhibit very little Puekert effect (almost the same Ah under heavy currents as light ones). If you are worried about crashes, you can even get the ones with a full metal jacket. 

The bigger (58-86lbs) ones can repeatedly fire off over 50KW each for a couple seconds without damage - if you were running 144V, that would be over 600KW (almost 800HP) in a 720lb pack. Of course you would need to find a motor and controller that could handle that... 

But very pricey. About the most expensive per Ah you can get in Lead Acid.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

so from that we know whats most bang for most buck, however I think we need a good matrix to have people weigh whats most important to them...cost is a huge factor so I am not interested in the most expensive upfront cost option unless it will save me in the end...


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

The per mile cost of the Hawkers is indeed higher then the premium golf cart batteries. You are paying for the performace and durability.

The lowest cost per mile is likely a small (200Ah) mass-produced 6V GC battery. But it will not be a peppy conversion. 

I believe they (the site admins) are working on such a martix right now. Of course the problem will be accurately placing the various large-format lithium batteries. They are just too young to truly know cycle & shelf life in an EV application. Some manufacturers claim 1000, or even 2000 cycles. Others (perhaps more honest) are saying 500 cycles at heavy currents. We should know in a couple years, eh?

Just a footnote, the Hawkers have a "400 cycles to 80% depth of discharge" or 4 year Warranty - whichever comes first.


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## OnlineAtvSalvage (May 28, 2008)

Ok ,, so what we have gathered so far is:
(using a 96v system and somewhere around 200 amp hours)

Wal-mart deep cycle. 12v 125 amp hours at $73 each
8 in series then 8 in parallel 
16 Total = 96v at 250 amp hours for $1,168 

Costco 6V Golf Cart Battery. 6V 205 amp hours at $72.49 each
16 in parallel
16 total = 96v at 205 amp hours for $1,159
(I could not locate the batteries at Costco.com but found the price someone paid at a different forum)

Trojans T-105s. 6V 225 amp hours at $140 each
16 in parallel
16 total = 96v at 225 amp hours for $2,240
(I have not looked around to much for the best price for the t-105. someone let me know how much and where?)


I want to find the best bang for a buck , for a "real world" conversion.What I mean by "real world" is a battery that a middle class working man can afford. Not some $10,000 Lithiums. Would like to see something that could last for maybe 2-4 years with normal daily use within normal , safe DoD


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Minor correction. For flooded lead acid, it might be better to 'buddy pair' them:

...bat1A....bat2A....
--+.....+--+.....+--
...bat1B....bat2B....

This would help avoid cell reversal since you are running each battery at a C rate double that of a simple string. Each battery would "prop up" it's mate if there was trouble.

And $140 for a Trojan T105 is a good deal. Some are reporting up to $200 each right now.

As to how long the bats last - that would be 50% build quality and 50% how you take care of them. Use a good charger setup, dont abuse them (keep the current under specs), keep them watered and don't let them sit more then a few days when not fully charged (if flooded).


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

The original Golf Cart batteries, I have installed in the Electric Eclipse are from Sam's Club. They are sold as Interstate Batteries, yet if you peel off the Interstate Label, there is another label from US Battery showing they are US2200 batteries. They are working fine, yet I do have LiFePO4 cells paralleled onto them as well.

On another note: We've just installed the new LiFePO4 cells in the Electric Fiero, and made a quick test around the block, since we can't charge them yet. We don't have Hot Juice Electric's regulators on the cells yet. You can see photos of that at: www.flickr.com/mbarkley

John, the owner of the Fiero, said he can certainly tell he lost 1000lbs of lead, even with just a 30 to 40% charge on the LiFePO4 cell pack while he went around the block.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

TexomaEV said:


> The original Golf Cart batteries, I have installed in the Electric Eclipse are from Sam's Club. They are sold as Interstate Batteries, yet if you peel off the Interstate Label, there is another label from US Battery showing they are US2200 batteries. They are working fine, yet I do have LiFePO4 cells paralleled onto them as well.


All the Interstate USxxxx and 'Big Joe' batteries are made by US Battery. How is your hybrid pack doing? Does it give you more range then the combined Ah would imply?


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Here is an interesting setup:

http://www.electricwheelsinc.com/batteries.shtml

$6500 for a 72V (3x24V modules) 100Ah LiFePO4 with BMS.

IF it goes 2000 cycles, that would be a pretty big bang for the buck...


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## maiku (Jun 1, 2008)

VDubber said:


> Here is an interesting setup:
> 
> http://www.electricwheelsinc.com/batteries.shtml
> 
> ...


what's the total Ah of that system?
if you buy two of them to get 144V for $13000 it's still not too bad


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

maiku said:


> what's the total Ah of that system?





VDubber said:


> 72V (3x24V modules) *100Ah* LiFePO4


(need at least ten characters to post on this forum)


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## maiku (Jun 1, 2008)

blah
i wasn't thinking

so the total would be 7200Wh
not too shabby

14400Wh if you convert to 144V which is more than enough for a good light range EV


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## BrianWillan (Feb 22, 2008)

VDubber said:


> Here is an interesting setup:
> 
> http://www.electricwheelsinc.com/batteries.shtml
> 
> ...


Unless I am blind, (wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of that) where does it say on that link that the $6500 LiFePo 72V 100Ah pack comes with a battery management system? 

These appear to be the same batteries that cloudeletric.com sells at $299.95 per cell with BMS. without bms, they are $30 less. Doing the math on the $6500 pack divided by 24 cells comes to $270.83. 

So I doubt that is comes with a BMS. 

Cheers

Brian Willan
Oshawa, Ontario


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

BrianWillan said:


> Unless I am blind, (wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of that) where does it say on that link that the $6500 LiFePo 72V 100Ah pack comes with a battery management system?
> 
> These appear to be the same batteries that cloudeletric.com sells at $299.95 per cell with BMS. without bms, they are $30 less. Doing the math on the $6500 pack divided by 24 cells comes to $270.83.
> 
> ...


It does look like cloud electric is selling the single EWID cells. 

Here is the distributors site:

http://www.ewidistribution.com/batteries.html

The BMS is that board thingy on top. But you are right, it doesn't explicitly say at Electric Wheel Inc. that it comes with BMS _at the price listed_. Hopefully it is a 'package deal' - hence the savings. But even at $7230 ($6500 + $730) it's still a pretty interesting deal.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

VDubber said:


> Here is the distributors site:
> http://www.ewidistribution.com/batteries.html


What? I know them. I looked at ZAP cars there. I live in Salem!
Hey, I have to go talk to them!
(They didn't mention they sell anything other than prebuilts (Zaps, mopeds, etc) 
(Oh, it says they only sell to distributors.. hmmmmm)
desiv


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Lithiums are entering the market cheaper and cheaper...Not much cheaper but just enough that its affordable to people who want to take that step...

When you factor it in to the life of the car, its not THAT bad...

I really like this conversion...

http://www.evalbum.com/1651

Tesla Acceleration = awesome
Mx-5 Acceleration = close to awesome
Tesla Range = 200 mi/charge
Mx-5 = 100mi/charge
Tesla cost = 90KUSD
MX5 cost = 30K USD

battery type used: 40 Thunder Sky TS-LFP160AHA, 3.20 Volt, Lithium-Ion (300$/unit) so 40 units cost him 12KUSD...for 15KUSD you could have 160V max amp output of those units is 800amp pulses..

160V x 800A surging into a Warp 11" would make for some nice acceleration at 0 rpm...


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## Vwbeamer (Jun 16, 2008)

Cloud Ev now has the 100ah packs for 249.00.( jun 20 2008) no BMS mentioned, but i would prefer to build my own anyways.

http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/2196


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Vwbeamer said:


> Cloud Ev now has the 100ah packs for 249.00.( jun 20 2008) no BMS mentioned, but i would prefer to build my own anyways.
> 
> http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/2196


They have the 100Ah cells - not the packs. You would make your own pack using these cells. A 72V pack would be $5976 + the cost of the buss bars. This is what the pack offered above is - 24 cells all wired up for you.


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## Vwbeamer (Jun 16, 2008)

I understand, i just typed it wrong. still it's cheaper than $6500.

BTW, they just dropped the price recently, i was looking last week and the cells cost $270 without BMS


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