# Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:34 AM, damon henry <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> Hi all,
>
> I had the chance to see a Tesla in person for the first time this weekend=
drag racing
> here in Portland. It was a lot of fun, and a very impressive car. N=
ot only did it perform
> extremely well on the race track, but most of the cars were driven down f=
rom Seattle.
> The question that I have is , is this enough to push electrics into the m=
ain stream?

Yes. Simply put, before Tesla, and despite the efforts of groups like
NEDRA, most people thought of golf carts whenever you mention
"electric car" to them. Underpowered vehicles with no range, driven
by vegetarian-quiche-eating hippies.

Then the Tesla appears, and suddenly it's a car that looks like a
cross between an Acura NSX and a Lotus Elise, a car that looks fast...
and is. A car that is blowing past Porsches and Lamborghinis... *and*
it's electric.

As the BBC show Top Gear put it, it's the first time someone's made an
electric car you might actually want to buy. [I disagree with that
statement, but it is indicative of the general public's feelings
toward the Tesla and previous electrics]

I think many interpret your question as "will this particular electric
go mainstream", and that's clearly no. It costs too much, end of
statement.

But you question was "is this enough to push electrics into the main
stream", and I think it definitely has. Prior to the Tesla, I don't
know of any major manufacturers who were thinking seriously of doing
EVs. Then the Tesla Roadster appears, and suddenly every company is
taking a very close look... and changing their plans.

Look at the first sentence from this article from the gm-volt site,
from http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/23/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-wishes-the-chevy-vol=
t-well-as-his-company-is-awarded-350-million-in-doe-loans/
:

> Elon Musk is the CEO of Tesla Motors, the company credited with jump star=
ting
> the nascent electric car revolution, and inspiring Bob Lutz to conceive t=
he Volt.

I don't think any more need be said. Tesla pushed GM to do EVs again,
and given the 3-4 year design cycle of cars, and given how many of
them are being intro'd in 2010, and given the Roadster's debut in
2006, I think the math is very clear. The Tesla Roadster was the car
that pushed everyone else into the market.

> On the plus side the Tesla clearly has adequate range, great performance =
and
> looks, and in every way is a real car that people can buy. On the down=
side, it
> is a two seat very expensive sports car, and although the range is adequa=
te
> there is no charging infrastructure in place to allow owners to get out a=
nd stretch
> their legs like a normal car owner. My own opinion is that it is a ste=
p in the right
> direction and will certainly raise some eyebrows, but until someone can m=
ake a
> mainstream mid-size car that is comparable in price to a gas version and =
until
> someone builds out a real charging infrastructure, at least on the inters=
tates,
> that offers gas station like refills electrics will remain a niche.

Couldn't disagree with you more. With the Tango, I'm concerned about
charging. I charge before I leave the house, I charge when I get to
where I'm going, and nearly every stop, I charge, because I live in
the Silicon Valley and major destinations are often 15-30 miles away.
And the Tango's lead-acid range is about 35 miles, given how I drive.

With the Tesla, I charge when I park it in my garage. And never
anywhere else; I don't have to. It's incredibly rare that I go 200
miles a day, let alone the 240-mile limit of the Tesla. Those times
that I do, I'm often going much further, and in that case I wouldn't
take the Tesla anyway. (Like, when I visit my mom in L.A., I'm
driving 350-400 miles, and I'm taking my wife and 2 kids and a bunch
of their personal stuff with me.) I have a different car entirely for
that sort of trip, and that other car only gets driven 3 or 4 times a
year, whereas the Tesla or Tango get driven daily.

> Of course there is a bit of a chicken and an egg piece to this scenario, =
so it
> may start as a niche and grow into the mainstream. One thing that is for =
sure
> is that the Tesla is everything that the EV1 could have been without all =
the
> politics, so that is very promising.

To be fair, Li-Ion batteries were far more expensive in the late 1990s
than they are now. And gas was as low as 89c a gallon. (I've saved
my receipt from a gas station in L.A. to remind me!) It's more
accurate to say that the Tesla is everything that the EV1 could have
been, if the EV1 had been designed 15 years later than it actually
was.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Jorg Brown wrote:
> >> The question that I have is , is this enough to push electrics into the main stream?
> >
> > Yes. Simply put, before Tesla, and despite the efforts of groups like
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jorg Brown wrote:
> >>> The question that I have is , is this enough to push electrics
> >>> into the main stream?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

Actually, I think the EV1 *did* changes people's minds. It's just that 
GM killed it.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > The GM EV1 was also such a car.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

It changed my mind about GM. I didn't know about the ev1 until I saw "who killed the electric car".
Stub
------Original Message------
From: mark at evie-systems
Sender: [email protected]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
ReplyTo: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?
Sent: Aug 1, 2009 10:26 AM

Actually, I think the EV1 *did* changes people's minds. It's just that 
GM killed it.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > The GM EV1 was also such a car.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

But the Teslas are for sale, the EV1's never were. :-(

More importantly they are so-far succeeding on their own desire, not
some mandate.(someone said it best, "The best typewriter companies did
not make the best computer companies." I think the best car companies
won't make the best electric car companies. I hope to be proven wrong)

I can't say I have heard more about them than the EV1 from the media,
but I can say that people I meet when they find out I am driving an EV,
have heard of the Tesla and still haven't heard about the EV1. (PS Any
Tesla Commercials?)

I had to trip over the EV1 they had parked between the two engineering
buildings at the college to find out about it. That was well after they
decided to stop producing them.

What we really need is someone to hit the ground running with 10,000
units in the first year. This is aprox the minimum economy of scale
needed for ICE, probably can do it EV for 1/2 that. We need them to show
up on the top 100 cities and cost less than 25K. I would say 100 mile
range and we's have a winner. Maybe Tesla will get to that???? Telsa's
plan to ramp up starting with the super car and work their way down is a
bold departure. It may be buisness smart, but may not be what is needed
to start a movement.

That toyota thing scares me. It is too small and looks too much like a
commuta-car. That could send us backwards.





> > org Brown wrote:
> >>> The question that I have is , is this enough to push electrics into
> >>> the main stream?
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

I'm really looking forward to the Nissan Ev-02 I think that is going
to play a large role in Ev's reaching a larger audience thanks to
Nissan. The car has already been featured on local news here (Tucson
az) albeit very briefly.

typewriter companies, now would that be foreign or domestic typewriter
companies  ?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > But the Teslas are for sale, the EV1's never were. :-(
> 
> Yes; but most people don't know that.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

>> That toyota thing scares me. It is too small and looks too much like
>> a commuta-car. That could send us backwards.
>
> Maybe. But EVs excel at being commuter cars (cheap reliable local
> transportation).
>
Enter, the Nissan Leaf 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Dave Hymers wrote:
> > Enter, the Nissan Leaf
> 
> Which we are assured, will be out at the "end of next year".
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

Did I say the Leaf would stop me aspiring to build my own EV ? (the
fact I can't afford either is a point aside.)
No, but I acknowledge the fact it exists is a good thing. They will be
on the road for people to buy. Nissan is not GM!
It takes a foreign automaker unfortunately.

You know what makes me think mass produced EV's are *just* around the
corner? Even Mazda, the car company that said "We have no interest in
producing a vehicle without a tailpipe" is considering their own EV
program, whether its successful or not is any mans guess, they're late
to the part IMHO.

When the EV1 was around, did any other automaker have their own EV
program ? Where hybrids around ? No. Today its different.
In my opinion, which you can throw to the wind, but everyone has a
right to an opinion; Its going to take another 20 years minimum for
EVs to become mainstream, but its happening slowly, we're seeing a
market sector growing from nothing, it takes time.
The public consciousness is just about waking up to the fact that
useful EV's/hybrids exist, and the more little cars like the LEAF the
better.

You can put this email down to youthful ignorance if you want, I'm
only 26 and haven't had my hopes completely dragged through the mud
with EV's, but I am a student of history.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >> But the Teslas are for sale, the EV1's never were. :-(
> >
> > Yes; but most people don't know that.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Dave Hymers wrote:
> 
> > snip
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Dave Hymers wrote:
> > When the EV1 was around, did any other automaker have their own EV
> > program?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Dave Hymers wrote:
> >> When the EV1 was around, did any other automaker have their own EV
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

Yes, at least the Ford Ranger and the Honda EV+ were, as I recall.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John O'Connor" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?


>
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> Dave Hymers wrote:
> >>> When the EV1 was around, did any other automaker have their own EV
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

John O'Connor wrote:
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> Dave Hymers wrote:
> >>> When the EV1 was around, did any other automaker have their own EV
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

From: "John O'Connor" <[email protected]>
>> Out of curiosity were any available for sale to the public other than
>> Rav 4?

The situation is a bit murky. Some GM S-10 pickups, Ford Rangers, and 
Chrysler TEVans were sold. Most of the rest of these auto company EVs 
were leased, though some got sold later at the end of their leases as 
used cars (that's how the Toyota RAV4-EVs were sold).

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: "John O'Connor" <[email protected]>
> >
> >>> Out of curiosity were any available for sale to the public other than
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> On 3 Aug 2009 at 10:35, joe wrote:
> 
> > Yes, at least the Ford Ranger and the Honda EV+ were, as I recall.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > I fervently hope Tesla can make it as a successful auto maker, and make
> > EVs "respectable" to the average Joe. But if the past is any sort of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [NEDRA] Is Tesla the difference maker?*

>
>> Yes, at least the Ford Ranger and the Honda EV+ were, as I recall. =

>
>If memory serves, the Ranger EVs were leased, but some were sold when the =

>lease terms ended (thanks, again IIRC, to the efforts of the dontcrush.com =

>crew). =

>
>Some of the GM S10 factory pickups (with front-drive EV1 drivelines!) were =

>sold outright to fleets when new. =

>
>At least some of the Chrysler TEVans (Caravan conversions) were sold. I =

>think the price was in 6 figures. Rod Hower worked on these, and might
know =

>more. Unless I'm mistaken, the EPIC (Electric Powered Intraurban Commuter, =

>and by the way it was INTRA, not INTERurban) vans were all leased. =


All of the TEVans were sold, supposedly 56 of them. MOST went to Utilities
such
such as Electric Companies, some went to Universities.. Texas A&M had IIRC
4.

SOME of the EPIC's were sold. Susy Green has one in the EValbum and I saw
one for sale in Texas a couple of years ago. See the evalbum.com/848.

Jim - Glendale, AZ
www.evalbum.com/425


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