# Axial Flux 9 1/4`, Greenville, Indiana



## Morf (May 29, 2009)

This motor has SEMA designed windings and you can see a neat photo from LynxMotionTechnology. All the specs are on their page and it is actually for sale! Plus Detroit Electric and Proton Automobile of Malaysia are showing off on YouTube, showing their mule on the test blocks with the bonnet removed all wired up to a high horsepower and tiny axial flux gap motor. Proton/Detroit E. is discussing two battery packs with pack 2 range claiming slightly over 200 miles, the lower range car (100 miles) to be priced somewhere in the mid 20s. Proton`s history is a bit ragged. Detroit Electric cars were on the streets in 1918.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Link to those actually for sale?


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## Morf (May 29, 2009)

Hi PhantomPholly,
Thanks for your post to my news bulletin. I could just answer `yes` to your question but I am guessing that if curiosity about the content of Lynx Motion Technology on line gets to you, you most likely already know what I know. I am sorry that I wasn`t more clear about how to contact Lynx. But (gulp) place the Lynx info above in your search engine. Please let me know what you think about their page. 

I share your interest in axial flux motors and we just found a paper from the U. of Rome, Italy dealing with a 4 rotor axial gap motor made for direct hookup to driving wheels, a true torque monster. Their abstract deals with the prototype they built, and rates the motor at 8000 N-m at 682 rpm with the torque following rpm down to near zero. In addition to railroad use, they think of it as boat propulsion. So maybe that is slight overkill, but there is no reason that their brainchild cannot be reproduced as a singe rotor. I am asking for some contruction plans at present.
Again-- search engine: < Multi-Stage Axial-Flux PM Machine for Direct-Drive Railway Traction Applications>.

The photo shows that it is surprisingly small considering the specs that go with it. It will run up to 2045 rpm at base frequency of 90.9Hz. Wishing you well.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm not certain we are both speaking the same variety of English.



Your first post said "...and it is actually for sale." However, you posted no links to where someone might actually buy them. The only examples I could find on their web site were "prototypes," not production versions, and the only information on specs was market-speak for "we COULD make them just about any power level."

Additionally, your title says "Axial Flux 9 1/4' " - as if it is referring to a specific model presumably being sold.

So, the obvious questions are, 
- Is there a model actually being sold as you say
- What are the specs
- What do they want for these motors

My suspicion is that they will be pricey given that they require rare earth magnets. While the efficiency is impressive, some estimates are that such a motor would not likely be mass-produced because of the cost for the rare earth materials and processing. That is why I'm hoping a company such as Rasor will actually start production - because their motors are reasonably efficient yet require no rare materials or exotic processes to build.


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## Morf (May 29, 2009)

Hi Again PhantomPholly,
Starting with the easiest. I noticed the measurement information for the axial motor we have been discussing from the web page of Lynx Tech..... Tired of doing math, I saw that the mm that were quoted were equal to 9 1/4 inches. I hoped nobody would notice the second mark missing on my inch symbol. Otherwise we are stuck with a 9 1/4 foot diameter, which doesn`t look likely in the photo. Sorry. 

Rare earth magnets come bearing different numbers, even when they are made of similar stuff, some being stronger than the others for the same amount of mass. There is a good explanation of magnets from IQS Directory which also has a great list of the companies that sell the high end and custom made magnets. The explanation is toward the bottom of the page. If one is doing some magnet in motors stuff on the kitchen table, you can get a bag of 1 inch squares (or rounds) for about 9 or 10 dollars. They are sintered neodymium and not toys. See <magnets4less>, or <rare earth magnets>, or KJ magnets, and many more. That doesn`t answer your question about the ultimate cost of magnets in a motor, but one would need to know what you might be planning before guessing at the numbers. Some of the IQS Directory listings are willing to give quotes. 

Motor for sale! I read all the search engine results for Lynx, this is before a person picks one out to zoom in on, and I stopped count at about 15 or 20. There was repeated mention about Lynx and their proprietary products being available out in the commercial world. Next post, ok? Thanks for trying to keep me alert.


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## Morf (May 29, 2009)

PhantomPholly,
Here are the specs and more on two models of the axial we are discussing. Go to Lynx Motion Technologies, look for a column alongside the left side of the page and look for ~Sema Motors~, click on it. The next page that opens will have the choices between the model E225 and the E813. The bottom of the page for the E225 will show all the specs for the motor. Best wishes.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Morf said:


> ...Here are the specs and more on two models of the axial we are discussing. Go to Lynx Motion Technologies, look for a column alongside the left side of the page and look for ~Sema Motors~, click on it. The next page that opens will have the choices between the model E225 and the E813. The bottom of the page for the E225 will show all the specs for the motor..


Hi Morf,

I guess I don't get it. You seem obsessed with these axial motors. Fine. I glad you like them. I do also. But they really don't seem to be a fit for the DIY conversion guys. These specs are 8.3 hp for an 18.5 lb motor and 174 hp for the 650 lb beast. And that is at 850 VDC. And no mention of price. What is your point?

BTW, thanks for starting to use paragraphs. It is a bit easier to read. 

Regards,

major


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Morf said:


> PhantomPholly,
> Here are the specs and more on two models of the axial we are discussing. Go to Lynx Motion Technologies, look for a column alongside the left side of the page and look for ~Sema Motors~, click on it. The next page that opens will have the choices between the model E225 and the E813. The bottom of the page for the E225 will show all the specs for the motor. Best wishes.


Ok, the E225 is rated for power as:
Diameter:225 mm (8.86 in.)
Axial Length:77.5 mm (3.05 in.)
Rated Speed:6,000 rpm
Rated Torque:9.9 N·m (7.3 lbf·ft)
Rated Power:6.2 kW (8.3 hp)
Peak Torque:97.4 N·m (71.8 lbf·ft)

So from the fact that peak torque is almost 10 times higher than continuous I would be tempted to conclude that peak hp is around 80 (but that is not conclusive). That falls approximately in line with the Warp 9 motor, but we don't have either weight or price for comparison. At 3" deep, it is definitely much shorter than the Warp 9 motor and so probably weighs less - that's good, and will allow more weight allowance for batteries.

The only article I can find relating to sale of the motors simply says they do not build motors but will license the technology - and that article is from 2003.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> .... simply says they do not build motors but will license the technology ....


I think Bodine Electric makes and sells these motors, up to 2700 watts. Also very similar looking to http://www.perm-motor.de/site/en/products/syn_motors.php?linkid=p&linkid2=1


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Ok, the E225 is rated for power as:
> Diameter:225 mm (8.86 in.)
> Axial Length:77.5 mm (3.05 in.)
> Rated Speed:6,000 rpm
> ...


You're right, that's about 80hp (62kW) - but at 6000 rpm. Power is proportional to speed so it would be 40hp at 3000 rpm. It'd be fine through a 5 speed gearbox and a clutch.

Not enough constant power though. The motor would overheat at 60mph in an average car. If you were limited to 40mph or ganged two together, you should be OK.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

samborambo said:


> You're right, that's about 80hp (62kW) - but at 6000 rpm. Power is proportional to speed so it would be 40hp at 3000 rpm. It'd be fine through a 5 speed gearbox and a clutch.
> 
> Not enough constant power though. The motor would overheat at 60mph in an average car. If you were limited to 40mph or ganged two together, you should be OK.


So, if you were judging "goodness" based on size this is a good motor because it is the same diameter but only about 10% of the "length" of a Warp 9. But we still don't know cost.

Interesting idea, though - daisy chain 8 of these together for a peak hp of 640hp for the drag strip...


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## Morf (May 29, 2009)

Major,
I am glad to have you involved with the latest axial business. Lets start right off with the Lynx Motion Technologies page again, on that same left side column that had the information on the motors (the original post was designed for cyclists of various kinds, hence the E225). The next listing down from the motors is `partners`. Here you can buy, according to the provided information from Bodine, which is one of the partners, a 14 inch axial, and other motor options also. The rest of the information on partners is very interesting too, partnering with major corporations, and Oak Ridge which did a study in axials that is currently on line, but was finished back in 1997.

The 14 inch axial from Bodine has a spec sheet under it. I hope PhantomPholly is reading this, as he was concerned that these products were not for sale.

I have had in the past a very productive period of time with WEG Motors(excellent customer care there), then I looked at Oswald in Germany who has highly rated motors, also very helpful. I have everything that I could find on the Toyota industrial tow truck 2te18 series 3 phase, 80 volts, motor by AC Propulsion, so marked. Following that was a review of all the Toyota fork lifts in Europe that were also AC Prop. and 3 phase. 

I admitted early on that I wanted a hauler, looking similar to the Modec, with an aluminum Mitsubishi truck frame and a sculptured front end. 

I almost forgot my exchange of posts here on the Hysters. I am boring a lot of people with all this repetition of old news. An attempt to persuade a Finland company to put their well tested axial on the market was found by SamboRambo not to his liking. ~so if you can`t please everyone, you can try to please yourself~, thanks to Rick Nelson. 

I am very grateful for expertise that some of you guys have offered, and it has always been right on. I am just to the point where I will be needing that help coming up now. Let`s not confuse obsession with planing in the best way we know how. Oh and did I mention a period of time with Jungheinrich fork lifts? I have tried hard to improve my writing style, Major. Got a ways to go yet, aye? Best Wishes everyone.


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## Morf (May 29, 2009)

Greetings, 
While we are in the neighborhood, take a look at the E-Torq that is a Bodine product. It is listed on that Lynx Motion Technologies page, only go down the left hand column to ``partners``.

When you come to the heading Bodine, they show a 14 inch DC brushless that looks like a large polished brake drum. Information on this motor is best found if one downloads the pdf file that is found listed on the bottom of the page. It is the N9430, and it ``delivers more than 200 lb-in. at speeds of up to 1,200 rpm``. It`s depth is less than 4 inches. Again here is another of my torque favorites. 

I would like to see a discussion about torque and horsepower. In a plant that had a coventry 6 cylinder engine, the beast ran on sewer gas, stood at least 12 feet tall, and ran at 450 rpm, producing 160 or so horsepower. The torque was in the stratosphere. So if you decided to tow a stalled 18 wheeler over the grapevine outside of L.A., and you have a vintage Brabham with 7 or 800 horsepower, or the coventry with 160 hp to pull you over the top, which will do it with the least fuss, comfort not a consideration. Horsepower yeilds speed, Torque gets your 2 cylinder G John Deere through the muck of a dried slough bottom. 



I think guessing at the ability to maintain a working (not overheating) temperature in some of the axial torque motors is risky. Axco will give you any kind of cooling system you ask for for their industrial axial motors, that strain at their work on screw machines continuously, rated at 75KW. or even 250 KW. Lynx has an engineer that wishes to discuss any questions a customer or potential customer has. I have read of axials that were university tested under loads, that had very reasonable internal heat numbers, to the delight of their builders. 

For myself I can see that large diameter E831 (33 inch). over weight yes but missing a clutch, tranny, differential, and more (subtract all that) happily taking my aluminum delivery truck out for an odorless and quiet delivery. Cheers,


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