# Hybrid conversion DIY kits and why they don't exist?



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
If you want to save money you are barking up the wrong tree!

Cheapest is to run an old IC car
Next cheapest is a second hand EV

Converting will cost you twice as much as the second hand EV and be half as good

That is all for EV's

Hybrids are worse! - much more difficult - much more expensive - much less benefit

Sorry!

Saving money is not where it's at - converting to an EV is more of a "Hot Rod" option


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

FantasticBrassNinja said:


> . The idea to look into this topic came to me after realizing afew automakers use a front ICE and rear electric motor set up to achieve their hybrid performance.


One problem is that there is far more to creating a functional hybrid than adding an electric drive unit to the rear of a car with an engine and transaxle in the front. Toyota's hybrids use a completely different transaxle than their non-hybrids; the rear unit is just an add-on for AWD if desired, to a vehicle which is hybrid even in 2WD form. Even in other hybrid systems, which use a conventional transmission, making a hybrid means adding a motor-generator to that engine and transmission, usually placed between them; this is not a reasonable thing to do aftermarket or DIY.

There is at least one add-on parallel hybrid system - using a belt-drive motor stuck on the engine - but it's not very functional compared to a properly integrated design.

A hybrid conversion could be an interesting project, but I agree that it would not be economically viable.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

brian_ said:


> One problem is that there is far more to creating a functional hybrid than adding an electric drive unit to the rear of a car with an engine and transaxle in the front. Toyota's hybrids use a completely different transaxle than their non-hybrids; the rear unit is just an add-on for AWD if desired, to a vehicle which is hybrid even in 2WD form. Even in other hybrid systems, which use a conventional transmission, making a hybrid means adding a motor-generator to that engine and transmission, usually placed between them; this is not a reasonable thing to do aftermarket or DIY.
> 
> There is at least one add-on parallel hybrid system - using a belt-drive motor stuck on the engine - but it's not very functional compared to a properly integrated design.
> 
> A hybrid conversion could be an interesting project, but I agree that it would not be economically viable.


I see you posted this in 2019, do you and Duncan still feel the same? I think I could easily slip an electric motor between the tranny and rear end of a small pickup, put a half dozen car batteries in back and connect some standard control to the system, maybe even get some regen and solar. My son and grandson are willing to help, gearheads all. I'm a weldor and mechanic, both of them totally capable. To me, the biggest challenge is the interface at the gas pedal.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> If you want to save money you are barking up the wrong tree!
> 
> Cheapest is to run an old IC car
> ...


Boy, you're a real pessimist, but I plan to carry on anyway. I started a thread in the 'Introduce Yourself' Colum. 
Can I just abandon it and take off here, or do I need to start another thread? I'm replying to Brian's reply.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mike kirschbaum said:


> I see you posted this in 2019, do you and Duncan still feel the same?


I don't think anything has changed, but it's still an interesting project if you want to try it.



mike kirschbaum said:


> I think I could easily slip an electric motor between the tranny and rear end of a small pickup, put a half dozen car batteries in back and connect some standard control to the system, maybe even get some regen and solar. My son and grandson are willing to help, gearheads all. I'm a weldor and mechanic, both of them totally capable. To me, the biggest challenge is the interface at the gas pedal.


Certainly the pickup with this motor placement is the easiest hybrid configuration to build.

One feature that makes this sort of easy-to-add hybrid system not optimal, and thus hard to justify, is that the motor is fundamentally not in the optimal place. It has recently become popular to describe parallel hybrids by the position of the motor-generator:

P0/P1 - At the engine
can replace the conventional alternator and starter motor, but can't drive the vehicle unless the engine is running
P0 or P1f: at the front of the engine, usually an accessory belt drive like an alternator
easy to add, but limited in power
examples: Ram eTorque, GM eAssist

P1 or P1r: at the rear of the engine, usually a gear drive like a starter
difficult to add
examples: early Honda systems, such as the Insight, with the Integrated Motor Assist (IMA)


P2 - At the transmission input
separated from the engine by a clutch, so it can drive the vehicle without the engine is running
difficult to add to an existing vehicle; required transmission modification
example: current Ford systems in longitudinal-engine SUVs and F-150

P3 - Between the transmission output and the final drive
relatively easy to add to traditional front engine / rear drive vehicles, but not practical with a transaxle
does not take advantage of transmission gearing so motor must run over wide speed range and needs additional gearbox or large motor for sufficient torque
example: Azure Dynamics Balance system (circa 2010)

P4 - after the final drive
can be completely separate from the engine-based powertrain
does not take advantage of transmission gearing so motor must run over wide speed range and needs additional gearbox or large motor for sufficient torque

Add-on hybrid systems typically fall into the P0 (or P1f) or P3 categories, because they are easy to do, but these are the least capable hybrid configurations, which is why OEMs only use P0/P1 for "mild" (low cost / low capability) systems, and don't use P3 at all.

After listing this, I searched for an online article to confirm the Px designation system and found this one for another writer's assessment of the same issues:
Mild Hybrid Electric Vehicle (MHEV) – architectures



mike kirschbaum said:


> ... and connect some standard control to the system, maybe even get some regen and solar. My son and grandson are willing to help, gearheads all. I'm a weldor and mechanic, both of them totally capable. To me, the biggest challenge is the interface at the gas pedal.


With this P3 motor position (and a 2WD truck), mechanically building it is the straightforward part (although still beyond most home mechanics). Connecting to the accelerator pedal is easy, but the problem is what to do with that signal. Does the hybrid control system determine when the engine is not needed and shut it down, then restart it quickly enough when needed? Does the control system reduce engine throttle setting to compensate for power delivered by the electric motor? When does regenerative braking occur, how much is used, does it occur only when the brake pedal is used, does it respond to the force on the brake pedal? Regenerative braking only affects the rear wheels, so when it is used

It is certainly possible to do a simple add-on parallel hybrid, but if it doesn't handle these issues well it won't be as beneficial as a properly integrated system, and it is a complex problem to handle them well. Even factory hybrids are often criticized for their integration of the engine and electric system not working smoothly enough.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

Really great post, Brian, thanks so much for your time. Things still look possible for me. I'll be keeping it simple, control the gas motor with a switch, no microprocessor there. I remember electric trailer brakes when hauling boats, they connected simply and supplemented the truck brakes, a nice system. That little bit of travel before the master cylinder is engaged can be just right for regen control. Definitely going P3, I'm not worried. Worked many years as a fabricator in a machine shop after years of being a machinist. I have a good welding/machine shop downtown who has been very helpful with my current project, a step-climbing hand truck. Sure wish I could market those things! But that's another story.


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## LionKing138 (Apr 18, 2021)

Hi there! 

Saw this thread was interested because I have been toying with the idea of making a diy electric drive to my ford probe's rear wheels. 

But to your truck:
My friend has a toyota dyna and it has an interesting handbrake. It's a single disc located around the cardinac axle. Could this be a place for a electric motor for a pickup? then you dont beed to drive electric power thru gearbox, nor rotate engine with it (and thus have power loss)
And you could also engage E-motor during normal drive, lowering engines workload. 

I was thinking one would need a magnetic switch (like in ac motor) to turn belt/gear drive of motor on/off, so it wouldn't cause resistance to engine.
I also was thinking about kinetic energy reclaiming (sorry I'm not native english speaking person so I use the words I know) 
What if you had 1 or 2 car accu chargers behind a magnetic switch too. whenever you wanted to drop speed or roll down hill you could engage the chargers and let them slowly draw your speed to charge batteries. This system could also be attached to cardinal axle. 

Best regards.
Lionking


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

LionKing138 said:


> Hi there!
> 
> Saw this thread was interested because I have been toying with the idea of making a diy electric drive to my ford probe's rear wheels.
> 
> ...


Your replies are correct. It is easy to install a motor between the transmission and the rear end, motors with splined ends are available. You just have to adapt driveshafts. That takes experience, and a proper machine shop is helpful. It's what I used to do. Working out the controls is the challenge, but a fun one. Of course, the motor has to be strongly attached to the vehicle, more talent in fabrication and welding needed there.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

LionKing138 said:


> My friend has a toyota dyna and it has an interesting handbrake. It's a single disc located around the cardinac axle. Could this be a place for a electric motor for a pickup? then you dont beed to drive electric power thru gearbox, nor rotate engine with it (and thus have power loss)
> And you could also engage E-motor during normal drive, lowering engines workload.


While I'm not sure what the term "cardinac axle" was supposed to be (perhaps "cardinal axle", intended to mean "main shaft"?) I assume that you mean the propeller shaft, which is the drive shaft from the transmission to the drive axle. Many trucks have a parking brake at the transmission output on this shaft, if they don't have parking brakes at the wheels.

This is a workable location for the motor of a parallel hybrid, and it is what I described as the "P3" position in my post (#6). It is what mike is already planning.



LionKing138 said:


> I also was thinking about kinetic energy reclaiming (sorry I'm not native english speaking person so I use the words I know)
> What if you had 1 or 2 car accu chargers behind a magnetic switch too. whenever you wanted to drop speed or roll down hill you could engage the chargers and let them slowly draw your speed to charge batteries. This system could also be attached to cardinal axle.


This is called regenerative braking. It is a normal feature of all hybrids and modern electric vehicles, and is easy to do with any AC motor.

I don't know what you mean by "accu chargers" (perhaps battery chargers?) but regenerative braking is done with the same motor and same controller/inverter as used to drive the vehicle.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

brian_ said:


> While I'm not sure what the term "cardinac axle" was supposed to be (perhaps "cardinal axle", intended to mean "main shaft"?) I assume that you mean the propeller shaft, which is the drive shaft from the transmission to the drive axle. Many trucks have a parking brake at the transmission output on this shaft, if they don't have parking brakes at the wheels.
> 
> This is a workable location for the motor of a parallel hybrid, and it is what I described as the "P3" position in my post (#6). It is what mike is already planning.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Brian, you're a great help. I'm new to EV, so help me out. EVs use AC motors, so inverters are used to convert DC from the batteries to AC? How is regenerative braking done with the AC motor? What phase is used for EVs?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mike kirschbaum said:


> I'm new to EV, so help me out. EVs use AC motors, so inverters are used to convert DC from the batteries to AC? How is regenerative braking done with the AC motor? What phase is used for EVs?


Yes, they're all AC. Yes, that means an inverter converts the DC supply to AC... and controls the voltage and current. Regenerative braking is a matter of changing the timing of the pulsing of the inverter transistors (currently insulated gate bipolar transistors or IGBTs are normally used), which is handled by the controller logic. They're normally 3-phase, but some large motors used in heavy trucks and buses run more phases.

All of this is true whether the motor is asynchronous (induction), or synchronous (permanent magnet, now typically with a reluctance component as well). Decades ago they were almost all induction, but now they're generally permanent magnet other than some which the manufacturer wants to be able to spin freely when not powered (e.g. one axle of an AWD vehicle). This suggests that induction might still be a good choice for a hybrid in which the motor is often doing nothing, and indeed the Azure Dynamics Balance hybrid that I mentioned earlier - which uses the P3 configuration with the motor inline with the propeller shaft in a medium-duty truck chassis - used a big induction motor.


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## mike kirschbaum (Feb 1, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Yes, they're all AC. Yes, that means an inverter converts the DC supply to AC... and controls the voltage and current. Regenerative braking is a matter of changing the timing of the pulsing of the inverter transistors (currently insulated gate bipolar transistors or IGBTs are normally used), which is handled by the controller logic. They're normally 3-phase, but some large motors used in heavy trucks and buses run more phases.
> 
> All of this is true whether the motor is asynchronous (induction), or synchronous (permanent magnet, now typically with a reluctance component as well). Decades ago they were almost all induction, but now they're generally permanent magnet other than some which the manufacturer wants to be able to spin freely when not powered (e.g. one axle of an AWD vehicle). This suggests that induction might still be a good choice for a hybrid in which the motor is often doing nothing, and indeed the Azure Dynamics Balance hybrid that I mentioned earlier - which uses the P3 configuration with the motor inline with the propeller shaft in a medium-duty truck chassis - used a big induction motor.


Thanks so very much, Brian. I will save this thread. You're really good at explaining this stuff, Tesla would be proud of you. I didn't know any AC motors had any magnets in them.


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## Insight.Commuter (Apr 19, 2021)

brian_ said:


> I don't think anything has changed, but it's still an interesting project if you want to try it.
> 
> 
> Certainly the pickup with this motor placement is the easiest hybrid configuration to build.
> ...


P1 = Gear Drive like first gen Honda Insight...needs editing for accuracy!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Insight.Commuter said:


> P1 = Gear Drive like first gen Honda Insight...needs editing for accuracy!


I didn't say that "P1 = Gear Drive". P1 defines a location in the power flow (at the engine output), and gear drive is only typical ("usually", not "always"). The original version of Honda's IMA is integrated with the flywheel, and thus P1; it does not use a gear drive.

Insight.Commuter, if you have a correction be constructive and provide it, don't just say something is wrong (especially with an incorrect paraphrasing of what you think is wrong). Not a great start to your participation in this forum.


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## Vg93 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hi People, I've been thinking along similar lines, except I've been looking at how electric motors can be built into the wheel assembly. These are known as hub motors. See for example: https://www.printedmotorworks.com/in-wheel-motors/
Ideally it requires little change to the car, but gives an electric assistance, improved economy and lower emissions. May also add performance if used as additional source if power. Like you hooking up to the controls to produce safe operation is a big challenge.


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## Swing (Apr 25, 2021)

LionKing138 said:


> But to your truck:
> My friend has a toyota dyna and it has an interesting handbrake. It's a single disc located around the cardinac axle. Could this be a place for a electric motor for a pickup? then you dont beed to drive electric power thru gearbox, nor rotate engine with it (and thus have power loss)
> And you could also engage E-motor during normal drive, lowering engines workload.


Yeah that is a common location, my old 40 series Landcruiser had that too. Great location for an electric motor, although matching the RPMs to something usable will be hard.



LionKing138 said:


> I was thinking one would need a magnetic switch (like in ac motor) to turn belt/gear drive of motor on/off, so it wouldn't cause resistance to engine.
> I also was thinking about kinetic energy reclaiming (sorry I'm not native english speaking person so I use the words I know)
> What if you had 1 or 2 car accu chargers behind a magnetic switch too. whenever you wanted to drop speed or roll down hill you could engage the chargers and let them slowly draw your speed to charge batteries. This system could also be attached to cardinal axle.


A brushless (BLDC/AC) motor doesn't give much resistance when it is not working (no power or regen) so you don't need an extra magnetic switch. Just don't use the motor and it is fine.
I would just check throttle position, no throttle == apply regen if system enabled. This may also work as "hill hold".


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## electroniceric (Nov 11, 2021)

This thread made my (New Year's) weekend! I am thinking about adding mild electric to a 1987 BMW i325. It's RWD, so my first thought would be to add electric drive to the front axle and use manual switching from electric to gas for simplicity. Honestly I might even consider a paddle type accelerator for the electric drive to simplify the switching process. The idea about in-wheel motors seems spectacular, though when I looked at the link Vg93 shared I didn't see automotive applications - maybe I missed them.

This is probably a long-term project for me, so I'm excited to learn from what you all do.

Happy New Years, all!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electroniceric said:


> ... The idea about in-wheel motors seems spectacular, though when I looked at the link Vg93 shared I didn't see automotive applications - maybe I missed them.


You didn't miss anything - there have been no successful applications of in-wheel motors in on-road automobiles.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The point of owning a Beemer is it's a sports sedan. In wheel mtors will make the suspension like a Ford F-350 in responsiveness and ability to hold the road.


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## Matt W. (12 mo ago)

I have been flirting with this idea for a while, and taking a closer look at the inner workings of the Prius' three motor system I believe it's possible to apply that power-split system to my Chevette and other old vintage cars.

Mind you, I don't have any hands-on experience with hybrid cars, but using the MG1 as both a clutch and a starter motor while MG2 works as a regenerative brake + overdrive motor (idk if this is the right term) all within the planetary gear set seems like a plausible addition right before the gearbox, the only thing that has been very hard to find out is whether or not there is an aftermarket kit that allows for this "clutch swap", putting in a Prius-like assembly right before the gearbox and ditching the friction clutch. I'm aware that the MG2 usually works together with MG1 as an automatic transmission, but I think that would make this kind of system too overly complicated, having to figure out all the reductions and increments with all the quirks that come with it, so I'd like to keep the manual transmission with MG1 as a clutch.

What are the options in the market nowadays for alternators and hybrid drive-trains? For these kinds of modifications the best solution would be the smallest, but looking at the Prius' hybrid set I can see that they are quite big to retrofit into older cars (as they are made to attach right to the motor axle), plus Toyota isn't so keen on making them serviceable. Another question is whether or not a smaller engine should be considered for this kind of vehicle, since fuel economy is usually the biggest concerns when it comes to hybrid cars. With a well regulated two-stage carburetor the gasoline-powered Chevette can do around 10km/l (24mpg) in the city, which is already really good but sub-optimal with the current gas prices. Changing it for a low-power 1.0 engine would provide a better mileage, and MG2 would be able to help get more torque whenever the engine starts to struggle (slopes and such), or at least that's what I've figured.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The Chevette already gets 35-40mpg, so have to ask why you would even consider Frankensteining the car.

Hybrids are 20 year old tech -- they are on their way out. Next decade, we'll see gas prices north of $12/gallon, imo due to refinery and gas station closures from lack of demand.

GM makes an assist motor which you can use in place of the alternator if you're hellbent on doing this. You'll need to mod the entire accessory drive and find a place to put the battery -- then you need to figure out the controls. Nobody's bothered because it's not worth it compared to going full electric.

Adding a lot of weight to a puny car has diminishing returns and adjusting your driving style probably has as much to gain as any hybrid mod.


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## Matt W. (12 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> The Chevette already gets 35-40mpg, so have to ask why you would even consider Frankensteining the car.


Sadly that's an overstatement. The most mileage I've seen from a Chevette in the wild was 12km/l (28mpg) in the city and 16km/l (37mpg) in the highway, and the official figures by the US department of energy places the most economic gasoline-powered Chevette at 14km/l (33mpg) on the highway and 10km/l (24mpg) in the city. That figure of 35-40mpg is for the Diesel version, and was branded a lot in the 70's due to the fuel crisis. 



remy_martian said:


> GM makes an assist motor which you can use in place of the alternator if you're hellbent on doing this. You'll need to mod the entire accessory drive and find a place to put the battery -- then you need to figure out the controls. Nobody's bothered because it's not worth it compared to going full electric.


I'll take a look into this assist motor, but going from what you described it seems to attach to the axle of the motor, which would rely on the engine being on to give the car more torque. This does give a lot more traction to a low-power engine, but doesn't save much on gas by day's end. A power-split or TTR system would allow the electric motor(s) to not require the engine being on for the car to function, and would allow the motor to stay on idle or even shut it down completely, saving on gas.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Matt W. said:


> I have been flirting with this idea for a while, and taking a closer look at the inner workings of the Prius' three motor system I believe it's possible to apply that power-split system to my Chevette and other old vintage cars.


The power-split hybrid system used in the Prius only has two motors, unless it's an AWD model with a third motor for the rear axle.



Matt W. said:


> Mind you, I don't have any hands-on experience with hybrid cars, but using the MG1 as both a clutch and a starter motor while MG2 works as a regenerative brake + overdrive motor (idk if this is the right term) all within the planetary gear set...


A motor isn't a clutch. MG1 plus the planetary gear set form a power splitter. MG2 uses power generated by MG1 (so MG1 + MG2 form an electric power transmission path splitting power flow with the mechanical power flow), or generated power needed by MG1 (causing a recirculating power flow) depending on the relative speeds of the engine and wheels. Normally MG1 generates.

Yes, only MG2 works for regenerative braking, but it has nothing to do with "overdrive".


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

A power split system will add about 25% to the mass of the car, which means crappier stopping and an ICE gas mileage decrease of around 20% (swag) in the city.

Pointless.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Matt W. said:


> I'll take a look into this assist motor, but going from what you described it seems to attach to the axle of the motor, which would rely on the engine being on to give the car more torque...


Yes, mild hybrid systems such as GM's eAssist (and Ram eTorque, and similar Ford systems, and others) work with the engine - they do nothing when the engine is not turning, although they are very effective starter motors, making automatic stop-start systems more effective.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

He's clearly made up his mind.

It's his time & money, not mine, going into a worthless car when he can buy a used Leaf Gen 1 for the same money.

Go for it and do a build thread here to show us how it's done.

🍿🥤


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## Matt W. (12 mo ago)

brian_ said:


> The power-split hybrid system used in the Prius only has two motors, unless it's an AWD model with a third motor for the rear axle.


Sorry, I meant the engine plus the two electric motors. Language quirks .



brian_ said:


> A motor isn't a clutch. MG1 plus the planetary gear set form a power splitter. MG2 uses power generated by MG1 (so MG1 + MG2 form an electric power transmission path splitting power flow with the mechanical power flow), or generated power needed by MG1 (causing a recirculating power flow) depending on the relative speeds of the engine and wheels. Normally MG1 generates.


What I mean by using MG1 as a clutch is due to the fact that a clutch is just a break pad that locks the engine axle to the gearbox, but with a couple of springs to cushion the engagement and a spring system to engage/disengage by pressing the clutch pedal. If MG1 (sun gear in the planetary) spins at the correct gear ratio in relation to the main engine axle (satellite gear axes) the output getting to MG2 (ring gear in the planetary) will be null. I don't know if this was ever applied, but it seems possible to apply for the gear shifting. A similar system is used to make MG1 + MG2 work as a starter motor (rev MG2 at the right direction and lock MG1, the only possible outcome will be that the satellite gears start to move as well as their axes, which means it starts the engine), it's all about planetary gear ratios.



brian_ said:


> Yes, only MG2 works for regenerative braking, but it has nothing to do with "overdrive".


What I mean by overdrive is what you mentioned above with the eAssist. It's getting MG2 to work in conjunction with the engine to get more torque, if I'm not mistaken that's what some hybrid mods for the Porche do, where they add an electric motor in series with the engine to get a higher torque.



remy_martian said:


> A power split system will add about 25% to the mass of the car, which means crappier stopping and an ICE gas mileage decrease of around 20% (swag) in the city.
> 
> Pointless.


You do have a point. The reason why the Chevette was so economic at that time was due in part to how light it was (under 900kg). More likely than not it's a really bad idea to try and convert one of these to hybrid (or electric for that matter) when it comes to cost-effectiveness, and I'm glad there are so many points being made against it. Goes to show how much differs from the drawing board to the real world. Lol

Still, the topic of this thread is really interesting to me, and I see very little material when it comes to simpler hybrid systems out there such as plug-in independent axle hybrids (TTR). Those as well as power assists would probably be the easiest to implement into existing cars, yet I can find hardly any data on those conversions.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

An elecric Chevette would be fun and it doesn't take a lot of motor or battery to make it go. Problem is most are rusted out garbage now.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Matt W. said:


> Sorry, I meant the engine plus the two electric motors. Language quirks .






Matt W. said:


> What I mean by using MG1 as a clutch is due to the fact that a clutch is just a break pad that locks the engine axle to the gearbox, but with a couple of springs to cushion the engagement and a spring system to engage/disengage by pressing the clutch pedal. If MG1 (sun gear in the planetary) spins at the correct gear ratio in relation to the main engine axle (satellite gear axes) the output getting to MG2 (ring gear in the planetary) will be null. I don't know if this was ever applied, but it seems possible to apply for the gear shifting.


Sure, but that's not a clutch action, it's the use of a power split system as a transmission with a continuously variable ratio. Zero engine speed happens whenever the Prius engine shuts down with the car moving (MG1 just spins at whatever speed results) and zero road speed with the engine turning happens whenever the Prius stops with the engine running (MG2 turns opposite to the engine at whatever speed is dictated by the power split planetary).

Coordinating the MG1 and the power split system to enable shifting of a manual transmission really doesn't seem worth the trouble. In the hybrid systems where Toyota has multiple gear ratios (there are 2-speed and 4-speed versions in some Lexus models), the shiftable gearing is planetary gear sets with clutches, just as in conventional automatics, but with no torque converter.



Matt W. said:


> A similar system is used to make MG1 + MG2 work as a starter motor (rev MG2 at the right direction and lock MG1, the only possible outcome will be that the satellite gears start to move as well as their axes, which means it starts the engine), it's all about planetary gear ratios.


MG2 can't be used as a starter motor because it is locked to turn with the wheels at a fixed ratio. Starting the engine is done by powering MG1, with the power split gearset reacting against the transmission output and MG2. There is no way to mechanically lock MG1 in a Toyota hybrid, and no way to lock MG2 except with the car's parking brake or whatever they might have for a transmission parking pawl.



Matt W. said:


> What I mean by overdrive is what you mentioned above with the eAssist. It's getting MG2 to work in conjunction with the engine to get more torque, if I'm not mistaken that's what some hybrid mods for the Porche do, where they add an electric motor in series with the engine to get a higher torque.


Okay, but that's not what "overdrive" means: overdrive is a transmission ratio with the output speed higher than the input speed.

All parallel and power-split hybrid systems allow an electric motor to add to the power output of the engine, at least briefly. Yes, MG2 does that in Toyota power-split hybrid.


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## Matt W. (12 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> An elecric Chevette would be fun and it doesn't take a lot of motor or battery to make it go. Problem is most are rusted out garbage now.


Over here we take good care of those cars, they were a best seller and car guy are still nostalgic about them. You can also find lots of spare and secondary market parts out there for cheap. I can buy a (badly) running Chevette for under 400USD in these parts and use it as my play car... although my wife wouldn't like it. Lol



brian_ said:


> Coordinating the MG1 and the power split system to enable shifting of a manual transmission really doesn't seem worth the trouble. In the hybrid systems where Toyota has multiple gear ratios (there are 2-speed and 4-speed versions in some Lexus models), the shiftable gearing is planetary gear sets with clutches, just as in conventional automatics, but with no torque converter.


Hm... I see your point. It falls back on how hard of an implementation it would be. It does seem to be better to just side with the CVT already present in the drivetrain.



brian_ said:


> MG2 can't be used as a starter motor because it is locked to turn with the wheels at a fixed ratio. Starting the engine is done by powering MG1, with the power split gearset reacting against the transmission output and MG2. There is no way to mechanically lock MG1 in a Toyota hybrid, and no way to lock MG2 except with the car's parking brake or whatever they might have for a transmission parking pawl.


If I'm not mistaken that's what the Prius does. It's much like a downhill start on a conventional engine, but the Prius gets moving with the electric motors instead of using the downhill slope. After it gets some speed, the car can then "lock" MG1 (torque MG1 against MG2), which will make it so that the ring gear's torque can only go towards rotating the engine's axle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Matt W. said:


> After it gets some speed, the car can then "lock" MG1 (torque MG1 against MG2), which will make it so that the ring gear's torque can only go towards rotating the engine's axle.


I think you'll find power-split transmission easier to understand if you let go of this idea of locking components together. If the parts of the power-split planetary gear set happen to turn at the same speed in some situation, that's a momentary coincidence. 

A target engine speed is selected for best efficiency given the current power demand.
MG1 is controlled to turn at whatever speed is necessary to make the engine run at the target speed.
Whatever power is generated or needed by MG1 to hit the desired speed (and the torque required to balance the engine torque through the ratio determined by the planetary gearing) is used or supplied by MG2.
No locking...


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

brian_ said:


> One feature that makes this sort of easy-to-add hybrid system not optimal, and thus hard to justify, is that the motor is fundamentally not in the optimal place. It has recently become popular to describe parallel hybrids by the position of the motor-generator:
> 
> P0/P1 - At the engine
> can replace the conventional alternator and starter motor, but can't drive the vehicle unless the engine is running
> ...


Thanks for the link to that article. It provides a good visual description of the different strategies pursued by automakers up to that point in time. I notice it doesn't discuss the goals for each design, and doesn't speculate on other (possibly unworkable or silly) designs. 

Notably missing are any retro-fitting options like chain driving a rwd vehicle with low power motors on drive axles, or hubcap motors, or even P0 direct drive on the front of the crankshaft rather than belt driven P0. Or motors with friction surfaces driving the rear wheels pressed up against the tires like old electric bicycle assist systems.

As far as goals go, most approaches seem to focus on MPG improvements at low speed and city driving with start-stop engine control in the mix. I think the opposite goal should be workable -- reducing fuel usage to almost zero for short highway trips by using an electric motor to provide the 20kw or so of power to maintain highway speed while overcoming the parasitic drag of the engine and its accessories. This would seem to achieve great reduction in emissions for those with modest highway commutes.

A modern fuel injected engine turns off the fuel injectors when driving downhill with the foot off the accelerator. A parallel electric drive train should create that same effect on flat ground by pushing the vehicle. No fuel consumption means zero emissions, right ? For that matter, shouldn't a P0 configuration also shut off the fuel injectors since the engine is being turned by an outside force ?

On the bad side, the electric motor would be spending energy to not only push the vehicle, but also overcoming engine compression, alternator, AC compressor, power steering pump and so on. I don't know what those loads amount to, or whether having the existing automatic transmission in a high gear to reduce engine compression would work or whether the engine would start using fuel again if rpm got too low or because catalytic converter would demand more heat instead of the engine just blowing cooler air at it. I've also heard some automatic transmissions' torque converters slip and don't transfer much energy to the engine when in overdrive and going downhill -- and if the engine isn't turning then the accessories like power steering pump and alternator aren't going to function. I have never noticed that happening in my car and I rarely remember to turn off overdrive when on a long downhill grade, so I question that info. If these loads are too high, you could drive in neutral and let the engine idle, but then it would consume fuel again -- but at about 1 gal/hour still yielding 60mpg (wag).

On the good side, the engine would be turning without burning gas and all those other systems would function normally rather than devising expensive replacements as in a full EV conversion. Having the wheels turning the engine and not messing with AC, a DC-DC converter instead of alternator, and motor-driven power steering, etc. simplifies things a lot to my mind.

Also on the good side, the engine would always be standing by to immediately start injecting fuel again and have full power (plus whatever the parallel electric drive produces) for passing, hills, or other sudden acceleration needs.

Also on the good side, torque and traction of the parallel system could be low, since the gasoline engine drive train would be responsible for getting the vehicle up to speed while the electric drive would only need to maintain speed. This means even city driving could see some benefit depending on how much time was spent at a steady speed as opposed to starting and stopping.

Which leads me to my silly-season speculation. Instead of touching the existing drive train at all, add a 5th wheel. The "easiest" and nearly "universal kit" way to hybridize a car would be for a separate module to be bolted up under the car with a swing-arm and single wheel (possibly electric motorcycle motor driving a 12" wheel and fat tire) and geared for high speed and low torque. Combined with your own 1500 cell 18kwh 18650 pack in the trunk, it seems like you could get 50-75 miles of highway driving at almost zero fuel use. Control would be simple -- if the electric assist mode is on, then a pressure switch on top of the existing accelerator pedal would power the motor before the engine ever sees it depressed, while a pressure sensor on the brake pedal turns on regenerative braking if the battery pack can accept it.

Now, for something not so silly-season. I have been contemplating buying a fwd vehicle that is also available as awd and has independent rear suspension, then replacing the rear wheel hubs with the driven-axle version. Then fitting a Tesla small drive unit with the OpenInverter board onto that subframe.  A lot of Volvo sedans as well as a few Fords and Toyotas fit this layout but with varying amounts of cutting floor pans to make space. The Volvos in particular seem to have the full rear subframe and suspension on both fwd and awd, maybe allowing just the Tesla motor and special-made drive axles rather than transplanting an entire Tesla rear subframe and suspension onto a different car. In addition to the benefits of the scenario above, this would put a full extra 200hp at your fingertips and propel the vehicle around town at any speed with no traction worries.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

One option for a "hybrid" would be to do an electric drive plus a "Range Extender". BMW does that for their i3, with the BEV and REX versions very similar, with the added gas motor for the REX. 

Ideally one would leave the generator home for local driving, and snag it for long distance trips.

J1772 doesn't like driving while charging (don't want to drive off while plugged in), but I'm not convinced that is a fundamental limitation, and driving/charging systems are generally at least somewhat independent.

I think with the BMW, people have hacked the ECU to allow engaging the REX at will, but only below 80% charge.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

CliffordK said:


> One option for a "hybrid" would be to do an electric drive plus a "Range Extender". BMW does that for their i3, with the BEV and REX versions very similar, with the added gas motor for the REX.
> 
> Ideally one would leave the generator home for local driving, and snag it for long distance trips.
> 
> ...


Adding an electric assist to a vehicle that needs to pass smog tests every two years and already does with its native drive train is one thing, but I have no idea how that would work with removing the native ICE and adding a removable generator unit. I doubt your average smog check station would know how to certify it. (For that matter, how does a smog check station test and certify any vehicle with an engine swapped for something else ? People put an LS1 V8 in cars that were originally a rotary or 4-banger, but I've never heard any mention of smog checks afterward.) And I doubt your DMV would register it as an electric vehicle exempt from emissions checks if it has an exhaust pipe. The DMV inspection for an EV conversion sounds like it could be arduous as it is, without the added complication of a different ICE still being present. I think an electric assist add-on could stay incognito and not need approval by anyone. 

To have any real range, the generator would need to be too large for it to be easily taken in and out at need for anything but a pickup truck. People used to ask here all the time why they couldn't just toss a $2000 5kw Home Depot jobsite generator in the back of their car or truck to power their EV, but it takes a heftier generator than that. Besides, isn't running a generator in the back of a pickup truck while driving pretty much going to guarantee getting pulled over ?

Twenty years ago I saw somebody that had made a 2-wheel trailer out of the front end of a VW rabbit. It still had the engine but it was attached to a generator of some kind instead of the wheels. They could tow it as a range extender for trips, and have it generate 30kw or something like that continuously. Not very convenient, and I don't know how it was registered as a trailer when it had an engine and exhaust. It actually looked almost like a small luggage trailer, being just the Rabbit with the whole area between the hood and rear bumper removed. Ingenious but not very elegant by today's standards. There would be the inefficiency of converting fuel to electricity and then through a charger to charge batteries and then an inverter to drive the motor that turns the wheels. An ICE pusher trailer with throttle and brakes controlled by the main vehicle would be more efficient, but sounds dangerous if those controls failed, potentially either pushing you into a collision or a deadman switch cutting power at an inopportune moment. Again, I doubt DMV would allow it DIY. A big manufacturer might be able to do all the testing to get something like that certified for use on public roads and then sell it for $10k, but not a DIY unit. Might as well just own a separate old/cheap ICE vehicle for trips or put up with frequent charging stops for your pure EV. 

The idea of universal battery modules weighing under 25lbs each that could be swapped out one at a time like for a power tool seems like it isn't going to happen. That seems like something existing gas stations could convert to easily compared to charging infrastructure, and swapping 30 of those modules in 2 minutes to get a fresh 75kwh of range seems like it would be a great solution. The station would just need a forklift to restock fresh modules delivered and send the drained modules needing recharge off somewhere. For a taxi company it would seem easy. For the general public, Tesla and others still sometimes talk about automated stations to swap out their entire proprietary battery packs, but rarely nowadays.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The generator has to pass emissions for the later of the vehicle model year or the year the engine was built. DMV knows how to test for that...sniff the exhaust. I'm pretty sure a generator won't pass.

I also would think, given it propels the vehicle, that an ICE REX of any kind, including a trailer, is a part of a vehicle essential to its operation and would still have to pass emissions.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

As far as SMOG, that varies from place to place. Here in Oregon, Portland does SMOG, but not the rest of the state. 
Oregon has incorporated an EV surcharge into licensing, and I'll learn about that in a couple of days when I take the Azure to the DMV. I'm not sure if that hits converted vehicles, especially ones that were previously registered.

I wouldn't tell the state if I had a removable range extender (trailer)? Also licensing for trailers vary. Here lightweight traiilers don't require licenses or titles (less than 1,800 lbs total loaded weight).

The BMW i3 REX uses a little 0.7L engine. It is rated at about 34 _hp_; 34 PS (25 kW) . So it isn't a tiny generator. Ideally one would choose a generator that could run at about 50% of your highway energy consumption. So, if you had an EV with a 200 mile range, then using the generator would give you about a 400 mile range, and potentially further if you stop.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

CliffordK said:


> One option for a "hybrid" would be to do an electric drive plus a "Range Extender". BMW does that for their i3, with the BEV and REX versions very similar, with the added gas motor for the REX.


No quotes required - that is a hybrid, specifically a series hybrid.



CliffordK said:


> Ideally one would leave the generator home for local driving, and snag it for long distance trips.


I understand the desire to leave the weight and bulk of the generator set behind, but the entire set is not a trivial thing, and the only practical ways to do that (due to fuel, cooling, and exhaust issues) would be as a trailer (which has been done many times but has lots of downsides) or as a module in a truck (which is a terrible compromise for a general-use vehicle).


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

True. Washington also has no emissions testing as well now, iirc.

But tampering with emissions, which would include changing out one ICE for another, carries a hefty FEDERAL penalty.

Not that Federal marshalls don't have better things to do, but dragging an ICE on a trailer with a J1772 cord plugged into the car from it is kinda like putting a donut on a fishing pole.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Hot Rodding has been a favorite past time in the USA ever since there have been cars. And for the most part, in many jurisdictions the government has just ignored it. Although I'm not in favor of simply removing SMOG devices just for the sake of removing them.

The latest seems to be replacing vintage engines with modern electronically controlled engines which have to be cleaner burning.

There are standards for small engines, but likely different than in cars. Unfortunately, the EPA tries to rate the engine based on its specs. So, if one replaces an 8 cylider engine with a 2 cylinder geneator, it may have troubles matching the EPA specs for a 2 cylinder car. But, may be far better than the original V8.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

CliffordK said:


> There are standards for small engines, but likely different than in cars. Unfortunately, the EPA tries to rate the engine based on its specs. So, if one replaces an 8 cylider engine with a 2 cylinder geneator, it may have troubles matching the EPA specs for a 2 cylinder car. But, may be far better than the original V8.


It might have lower emissions, but it might not, even though it uses less fuel than the V8. Smaller generators might have an ICE without catalytic converters. Again, for BMW to make a product, they will be able to make it emissions compliant, but a DIY conversion might be tough. There are lots of things that will work, but convincing our nanny state(s) to allow them might prove impossible. 

I'm encouraged that in one of the worst nanny states (CA), a full EV conversion gets approved by the DMV referee pretty easily because there are zero emission-producing components on the vehicle. Doing a homegrown "emission-reducing" conversion like a series or parallel hybrid would just confuse them and cause a reflexive denial, I think. Probably the surest DIY conversion to fly under the radar would be a P0 conversion -- directly assisting the ICE motor on the motor side.


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## CliffordK (Oct 8, 2011)

Do states still put vehicles on the dynamo for SMOG testing? Some kind of series hybrid might do quite well as the vehicle would get a significant amount of power from the electric.

Unless the testers deem that one is "Cheating" like VW was caught doing.Nonetheless, a home mechanic would be in far less hot water than VW.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Hotrodded cars' emissions at the most originally had a positive crankcase vent and fuel tank vapor canister. 

So, yeah...if you're doing a 32 Ford and dragging a lawnmower engine behind it, that might work...as long as that ICE was built pre-70's. Where it gets into lawyer-up territory is if that ICE was built post 1980's and whether the year of build _car_ emissions would then apply (my understanding of how it works). I'm guessing it would fail emissions despite the lower displacement due to lack of a catalytic converter and fuel injection. 

If you're going to go to the trouble of transplanting a Prius, Volt, i8, engine/generator, then why bother? BEV is cheaper and better performing, all-around. Gas is going to $12/gallon in the USA, imo and gas stations will start shutting down, as will refineries.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

^^ The Fed likes punishing the little guy as an example. 

I suspect they would test under ICE-only operation....the fact that CA DMV requires fuel lines deleted says they're paranoid about smog loopholers going back to 100% ICE after passing.


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

remy_martian said:


> Hotrodded cars' emissions at the most originally had a positive crankcase vent and fuel tank vapor canister.
> 
> So, yeah...if you're doing a 32 Ford and dragging a lawnmower engine behind it, that might work...as long as that ICE was built pre-70's. Where it gets into lawyer-up territory is if that ICE was built post 1980's and whether the year of build _car_ emissions would then apply (my understanding of how it works). I'm guessing it would fail emissions despite the lower displacement due to lack of a catalytic converter and fuel injection.
> 
> If you're going to go to the trouble of transplanting a Prius, Volt, i8, engine/generator, then why bother? BEV is cheaper and better performing, all-around. Gas is going to $12/gallon in the USA, imo and gas stations will start shutting down, as will refineries.


Adjusted for inflation, Germany hit that price 10 years ago. It didn't shut down all the gas stations. Besides, 100 million ICE cars still on American roads are not going to be replaced overnight even if gas hits $12/g. People will drive less, work from home, etc. before spending $30k on a new BEV with no resale market for their ICE. If they have range anxiety about BEV being their only vehicle, they will need to shell out $50k, which makes $12/g for gas even less likely to push them into early disposal of their ICE. I would bet 75% of the ICE vehicles sold this year will still be on the roads ten years from now. If pricing on BEVs has a revolution so 400 mile BEVs with fast charging are available for $30k, that might kill new ICE sales quicker, but it won't push people that don't already need a new vehicle because they won't be able to get anything from their ICE in trade or resale. People like m who drive only a few thousand miles a year will never make back their money by saving $500/yr on fuel.

This thread is about turning an existing vehicle into a hybrid, hopefully for a few thousand$, and significantly reducing fuel use through the remainder of the vehicle's useful life, eg. 20 years. You are essentially saying "don't bother", which is fine, but then I wonder why you even bother with this thread. Automakers have had some success with turning previously ICE vehicles into MHEVs without a ground-up design, but essentially retrofit. This thread is basically asking if it can be done DIY.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

These Are the States Banning New Sales of Gas and Diesel Vehicles


Several states plan to enact bans on sales of new internal combustion-powered vehicles. These are the states proposing ICE bans in the 2030s.




joinyaa.com


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

I'm trying to figure out how to make the 85' Cadillac Fleetwood Hearse I'm buying into a hybrid as I'm rural and I can't do a fully EV conversion (infrastructurecant handle the plug in needed, too far from charging stations). Mostly just commenting to keep up with the discussion, but open to productive and kind advice.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

What infrastructure?

Unless you drive for Uber, you can get by with a 120V extension cord. Charging for 14 hours at 120V on a 15A circuit gets you 50 miles each day, with a topoff on weekends of 200 miles. Double those numbers, because if you build a car, you will be welding and have access to a 240VAC outlet. Maybe even quadruple it.

That puts it at 450 miles a week, pure EV. Hybrid is excessively complicated, so stay away from the idea unless you do a 100% systems transplant from another hybrid, including all sensors, subsystems, CAN modules, and actuators.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> What infrastructure?
> 
> Unless you drive for Uber, you can get by with a 120V extension cord. Charging for 14 hours at 120V on a 15A circuit gets you 50 miles each day, with a topoff on weekends of 200 miles. Double those numbers, because if you build a car, you will be welding and have access to a 240VAC outlet. Maybe even quadruple it.
> 
> That puts it at 450 miles a week, pure EV. Hybrid is excessively complicated, so stay away from the idea unless you do a 100% systems transplant from another hybrid, including all sensors, subsystems, CAN modules, and actuators.


Why are you always so condescending? Have you ever tried being nice to people? Oh wait you're American, forget I asked.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

dyeingCoreopsis said:


> Why are you always so condescending? Have you ever tried being nice to people? Oh wait you're American, forget I asked.


You made an arrogant posting about having to do a unicorn conversion of your meatwagon and I merely presented facts without a single word about you being an idiot (that, by definition, would have been condescending...you feeling like an idiot after being presented by simple facts is not me being condescending) that countered your _assertions_.

I hope you lashing out at me, and Americans, for spending my own time to save you a lot of time, money, and from failure, made you feel better, eh.

I could just as easily have grabbed a bag of popcorn and been entertained for months if I was a narcisistic, selfish, a-hole.

You're welcome.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> You made an arrogant posting about having to do a unicorn conversion of your meatwagon and I merely presented facts without a single word about you being an idiot (that, by definition, would have been condescending...you feeling like an idiot after being presented by simple facts is not me being condescending) that countered your _assertions_.
> 
> I hope you lashing out at me, and Americans, for spending my own time to save you a lot of time, money, and from failure, made you feel better, eh.
> 
> ...


I never said I felt like an idiot. I know you personally hate the idea of anyone converting to hybrid so you shit on anyone who wants to on principle. I've read this whole thread. You haven't been the kindest person and you were the one I didn't want to respond to me because I knew what you would say. So take a chill pill and be nice to people.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> What infrastructure?
> 
> Unless you drive for Uber, you can get by with a 120V extension cord. Charging for 14 hours at 120V on a 15A circuit gets you 50 miles each day, with a topoff on weekends of 200 miles. Double those numbers, because if you build a car, you will be welding and have access to a 240VAC outlet. Maybe even quadruple it.
> 
> That puts it at 450 miles a week, pure EV. Hybrid is excessively complicated, so stay away from the idea unless you do a 100% systems transplant from another hybrid, including all sensors, subsystems, CAN modules, and actuators.


To answer your infrastructure question: Rural Canada doesn't have the best power, we get brown and black outs all the time. The Mennonites that built our house did everything wrong and adding another larger outlet is not wise. The house is not grounded, Alberta is prone to thunderstorms, whenever the lightning is too close some electronic gets fried and I'd rather it not be my car. I live 100km (62 miles) from any charging station or any of my friends so the 14 hours of charge with a regular extension cord wouldn't get me anywhere but stuck in the countryside. Not to mention the full electric conversion would run me $100,000 which is about 10× my budget.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

So why aren't you installing offgrid solar & batteries (which can be part of the car build) first?

Installing a ground rod takes a couple of hours. Same for a grounded outlet.

Build what you want - it's your money and time. Very very few here have the time or ability to support a hybrid build, especially one that has to function in snow. Every noob comes here talking about it, few if any complete a build. Transplanting the entire system from a Silverado could work, but everything including harnesses have to move over...that will get you about 20-30% mileage improvement in the city, very little on the highway if you're in eastern AB.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

Because my landlord won't let me, he doesn't think it's worth it with how inefficient they are at the moment. Do I have to justify every aspect of my life to you???


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

If you expect us to understand your choices and constraints...YES you do.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

You are not owed any information beyond what I said in my original post.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You are correct. There's no debt transaction in play.

*We*, however, are required to have complete information if you expect everyone here to understand your knowledge, abilities, goals, and constraints and provide relevant guidance & input.

Meanwhile, here's what can happen when you have your suppliers, chock full of PhDs (let alone a guy in Alberta who can't even plug a welder in the wall to do a build) develop a hybrid for you from an ICE car:









2024 Chevy Corvette Test Mule Devoured By Fire [UPDATE]


An oil leak caused a fire, ultimately leading to the demise of a 2024 Chevy Corvette E-Ray as the prototype burned down completely and is now unrecognizable.




www.motor1.com





A hybrid conversion is extremely complex, even if it is a transplant. Everything has to interwork, especially in the snow and in winter conditions. I don't "hate" it - you don't know what you don't know.


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

Fine I will be your trained seal and jump through your hoops. 

I'm a 24 year old disabled college dropout (was not the right field for me) living with my parents, thus I am beholden to their whims. My father refuses to put in any alternate energy sources unless He gets a tesla. I'm taking out a $10-15,000 loan so that I can upgrade my dream car into something functional for daily driving and car camping so I can have Some Semblance of Independence. I have little experience with cars, though I've always been interested.
I don't have much if any energy after my full time factory job so most of my money goes to takeout and pre-made meals as I'm expected to cook for my family. I will not be getting into how I'm disabled as that is quite frankly no one's business but my own. I cannot afford to move out on my own or to the city and I wouldn't be able to anyway with my brain and body the way they are. 
My father wants to help me with the upgrades so I won't be the only idiot working on this beast. I want to convert to full EV at some point in the future if the government decides to upgrade the power grid to accommodate electric vehicles and subsidize the conversion of the vehicles themselves. For now I'm looking for something to reduce emissions and help save my wallet while being feasible and affordable. 
I'm fully aware that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and the world will most likely end within my lifetime, but I want to do what I can to reduce my impact on the earth.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The fate of the planet is grim only if your generation allows us Boomers to end it. 

That generational struggle has been in play ever since the 20 year old jumped out of a tree 4M years ago and rubbed two sticks together.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm taking out a $10-15,000 loan so that I can upgrade my dream car into something functional for daily driving and car camping so I can have Some Semblance of Independence. I have little experience with cars, though I've always been interested. 

I hear what you say - but your goal is simply not practicable!! - I'm a retired engineer and I built my EV and I could NOT turn that car into a practicable Hybrid for that sum - the idea of "saving money" by doing that is simply not going to happen
You COULD make that car a Hybrid (you would be one of the first on this forum to succeed) but it WILL cost you far more than you will save
As a "project" or a "hot rod" - Go for it!!
To "save money" --------- not gonna happen


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## dyeingCoreopsis (5 mo ago)

So just make the thing drivable until full electric conversion is affordable?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

dyeingCoreopsis said:


> So just make the thing drivable until full electric conversion is affordable?


Yep - and even then "full electric conversion" is likely to be a choice because you WANT the car - not to save money

Todays production EVs are bloody good and second hand ones are cheap enough to make "converting" a labour of love

My "Device" is great fun and I'm updating it (more power!) - but I'm going to keep running my old Subaru as my long distance machine as long as I can
I hope to keep it going until I can afford a Tesla (I will still be keeping my "Device" as a fun car)


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## MineAngerBR (Jan 5, 2020)

dreamer said:


> Notably missing are any retro-fitting options like chain driving a rwd vehicle with low power motors on drive axles, or hubcap motors, or even P0 direct drive on the front of the crankshaft rather than belt driven P0. Or motors with friction surfaces driving the rear wheels pressed up against the tires like old electric bicycle assist systems.


Here you go: 



Almost exactly your idea, P0 direct drive near the crankshaft itself




CliffordK said:


> One option for a "hybrid" would be to do an electric drive plus a "Range Extender". BMW does that for their i3, with the BEV and REX versions very similar, with the added gas motor for the REX.
> 
> Ideally one would leave the generator home for local driving, and snag it for long distance trips.


Here you go: 



Almost exactly your idea, EV main power with a range extender


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MineAngerBR said:


> <REVOLT DIY Hybrid Overview>
> Almost exactly your idea, EV main power with a range extender


Please don't copy anything done by this guy, who put a propane cylinder in the interior of a car. I haven't watched the video, mostly because I don't want to add to his view count.

SuperfastMatt, on the other hand, is always worth watching... even though he gave up on that hybrid and moved on to other projects. He actually started with that project in this forum:
1964 Honda S600 Motorcycle/Electric hybrid


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