# 1995 Saturn SL2 re-build thread



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Alright, I’ve decided to make a re-build thread for my new (to me) 1995 Saturn SL2 EV. 

I’ve been thinking about an EV for a while, and did quite a bit of preliminary research over the last few months. My requirements are modest. 50 mile range, 5 seats (only kids in the back, so weight/space is not really an issue, just need 5 seat belts), sporty-ish (0-60 in the 9 second range with decent handling), able to cruise at 65 for 10-15 miles, and be easy for anyone to drive. No tricks, no funky shifting, no heaterless/air conditioning less cars allowed here. I settled on the idea of a basic 4 door compact car with a DC motor and lithium batteries, which I figured would fit the bill pretty well. Hopefully something new enough to have air bags and shoulder belts in the rear seats, but not so new that it’s completely computer controlled.

Right about that time, I saw this post here in the classified forum. Hmm, a free roller, that could be a nice way to get started!  I have always liked the first gen Saturns, and I can’t weld so there’s definitely an advantage to buying something that already has battery boxes and motor mounts made. I emailed back and forth a bit with the owner, one thing led to another and I ended up buying it from him as is. Broken motor mounts, damaged Warp9, all electrics, 48x 130ah CALB cells and all! 

Definitely a ‘fixer’ rather than a conversion at this point, but it still needs plenty of work. In addition to the obvious fixes needed to repair the damage, it also has no air conditioning (which I figure I have until next summer to figure out a solution), a non-functioning (but still installed, so hopefully fixable) clutch, a Logisystems 750a controller (one of the few still working from what I can tell, but I don’t hold high hopes for it in the long run) and it needs to have another motor mount added to prevent excess rotation of the motor. In addition to whatever else I find as I tear into the car…

I set up a transport to get the car from there to here (not cheap to ship a non running car!!), and in the meantime while I was waiting I came across this thread and now have a used Warp9 in my garage waiting to be installed.










While I was waiting for the car, I also procured a big, ugly, rusted engine hoist from Craigslist, bought a hand powered winch to get the roller up the driveway (which required drilling into my concrete floor and installing a half inch wedge anchor), and proceeded to clean out a space in my garage to work on the project.










More in a bit…


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Car arrived! Here’s my girls trying to figure out which one is our new car…










and here they are trying to figure out where to hook the winch line.  (yes, the wheels are chocked...)










I was able to pull it up the hill into the garage without problem, I had one kid in the driver’s seat covering the brake, and the other in the passenger seat ready to yank up the e-brake on a moments notice! They took their jobs VERY seriously. Alas, there was no drama, it just pulled right up and in.

I fooled around with it for a little while, mostly making a wiring diagram and trying to figure out how everything was wired up. I also pulled the hood off, but that was the extent of my actual ‘work’ tonight. Most of the components have to come out in order to pull the motor (and replace the component shelf that was broken when the motor jacked up) so I want to make sure I’ve got a good complete wiring diagram before moving forward. Here’s a few ‘before’ pics of it nice and snug in the garage.




























This is not going to be a quick project, I’ve got a lot of other stuff going on and really want this to be fun, not work. I’m also hoping to involve my daughters as much as I can (which will certainly slow things down a bit!). My hope is to get it up and running in a month or so, then take my time over the next few months fixing the little things.

I'd love to get the motor/trans out this weekend, but that's probably optimistic. We're in the middle of soccer season and the weather is real nice right now. Probably won't spend too many hours in the garage.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Good luck with the project.

Just a heads-up from a long-term Saturn SL owner:

These cars have an Achilles' heel in the transmission- there's a roll pin that retains gears in the cast differential carrier that works its way out. When it does that, the pin clips the transmission case, and the whole tranny grenades. Don't ask me how I know.

There's a pretty good overview of the problem and the various solutions here:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-121625.html

There are some things NEVER to do with a Saturn SL: Never spin the tires. Never drive the car with the small spare tire on the front axle. Never use tires of different size on the front axle. Never spin one tire coming out of a corner, etc.

Since your electric motor puts a lot of torque into the transmission, and you're going to have it out on the bench during your rebuild, do yourself the favor of looking into this problem and taking it on.

TomA


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for the link Tom, I found a youtube video showing how to check the pin without opening up the trans. Should be easy to do with it out of the car. 

if it looks centered and OK, I'll probably just let it be. No need to open things up and make it worse by trying to fix something that isn't broken yet. 

Thanks for the tip!


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Good luck david.

I think in this case (at least now) the trans wasnt the cause of the damage.
The lower trans mount let go which shifted the trans up to the battery box snapping the passengerside cv joint and bending the warp9 enough to make all sorts of naughty sounds. Ill be watching with a tear in my girlfriends eye heh.

Careful in reverse...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dexion said:


> Good luck david.


hey thanks! Hope I do the car proud. 



dexion said:


> I think in this case (at least now) the trans wasnt the cause of the damage.
> The lower trans mount let go which shifted the trans up to the battery box snapping the passengerside cv joint and bending the warp9 enough to make all sorts of naughty sounds. Ill be watching with a tear in my girlfriends eye heh.
> 
> Careful in reverse...


fixing the clutch ought to help out. Or a smoother controller. Maybe both.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

A bit more progress today, I pulled out all the components mounted over the motor. First I made a good wiring diagram, then started disconnecting and labeling everything. It was a shame to pull it all apart, it was wired really cleanly! Anyway, with the tray and components out of the way, I could get a good look at the motor.



















In the closeup below, you can see the damage. The closer I look, the better it seems! It looks like it possibly is just that the metal screen rotated and pushed up against the terminals and the plastic connector. It broke the connector out of the case, but the terminals actually look decent, just the plastic insulators got thrashed. I may not need that second motor after all! Too soon to really tell though…



















The picture below really shows how far up the motor twisted. It pulled the rubber motor mount clean apart on the right side.



















below are a few photo’s showing the ripped apart CV joint (which sprayed grease on everything near it!) and the lower torn trans mount. It also completely separated.



















so far so good! I just may get the motor and trans out this weekend after all!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well, no more garage time over the weekend, so not much else done. I did spend some time translating my scribbles into a readable wiring diagram. I am not an electrical engineer! But I think it all makes sense. What do you think? See anything wonky? This was a running car for over a year, so I know it works. Anything you'd change?

I did not put in the details of the heater or BMS yet, just the inputs to their 'black boxes'.

edit: hmm, I can't seem to get the .pdf to display in the post, but I think it did attach correctly.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Is relay on top of 12V battery (in the drawing I mean) rated for full pack voltage (DC)? I'd change that if it is regular 12V automotive relay there.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

mora said:


> Is relay on top of 12V battery (in the drawing I mean) rated for full pack voltage (DC)? I'd change that if it is regular 12V automotive relay there.


Here is what it says on it:

White-Rodgers 
120-10571-6
Coil 12v DC Cont
120-901

this is what it looks like:


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I think Logisystems controller is at least partially responsible for the damage to motor/tranny mounts. Its notorious for lurching at low throttle due to poor design, which is especially evident at low gear like rear gear. Many people come up with kludges to limit throttle when in rear gear to avoid jumping backwards at the touch of a pedal.

So, after you fix up motor/tranny and start testing, be very careful with this controller.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

yup i could drive it fine but not the GF.

David that relay energizes on 12V but holds pack voltage across the relay. It is the relay for the dc to dc converter (144Vdc in) so its not on all the time without the ignition switched. With the precharge resistor in place the dc to dc would groan and whine so I put in the relay 5 minutes after the precharge resistor went on the car.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

my 'plan' is to get it up and running with the Logisystems, then do some power tests to see how it feels when running well. From that data, I'll make a decision on what controller to replace it with (higher or lower power). Unless it feels fine, then I'll just keep it.

I read somewhere, not sure where, about someone who added a resistor or something across the pot box only when in reverse, which lowered the power output when in reverse. I'll have to dig that up... That seems like it could be a good fix too.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, it’s basically all ready to pull out the motor, but I have to wait till the kids have enough free time to do it with me! With soccer, homework and going to a Giants game last night (gotta have priorities, right?) there just has not been time. I’ve pulled the driveshafts and got most of the wiring out of the way, but they are real excited about the actual removal part.

In the meantime, I’m thinking and planning. Cause I have to do something!  So, I came up with a list of projects I’d like to do. Some of this is for now, some is for after it’s all back together and running, sort of a phase 2,3 etc. down the road.

1. Redesign the rear motor mount. Currently, the rear mount (CE of the motor) is a beefy strap clamped around the end, then connected to the stock upper motor mount location. I don’t like this setup because a portion of the clamp is actually over the inlet screen, which is not well attached to the motor itself. This appears to be what actually damaged the motor. The clamp to screen was solid, but the clamp and screen rotated together on the motor and damaged the posts and connector when everything broke and rotated. (you can see this in the photo’s on page 1). I see two options here. Either a) modify/remove the screen so the clamp is directly on the motor or b) replace the clamp with a simple CE bolt on plate that connects to the same mounting point. Either way I’ll add a lower torque bar to reduce motor rotation. This will require welding a tab to the frame, once I get the motor back in I’ll have to tow it to a shop to have that done. I’m sure the torque bar itself will be enough to solve the problem.

2. Install a blower for the motor. Maybe not needed, but I like the idea of not only extra cooling, but also the added protection of having the motor inlets covered up and fed by a filtered blower. Seems like it would help keep the motor cleaner and cooler. I’ll incorporate this in my redesign of the rear motor mount.

3. Replace the component shelf with polypropylene. It is currently clear acrylic (at least I assume It’s acrylic) which looks cool, but it is pretty difficult to work with. It’s brittle, and broken already from where the motor hit it. I thought about replacing it with Lexan, but that’s $$! And with all the wiring and components you can’t really see through it anyway, so there’s no real point in it being clear. I’ll just stick with something cheap and easy to work with, but a little more visually appealing than plywood (and quicker since I don’t have to seal and paint it). 

3. Move 12 batteries up front. Right now all 48 are in the trunk, 36 in the recessed box and 12 in the trunk behind the rear seats. I’d like to move the 12 out of the trunk and up to the front. To clear out the trunk space and move some weight forward. I have not weighed the corners yet, but the car looks rear heavy. I’ll actually weigh it before doing this to confirm my suspicions that I could use a little more weight up front. The front rack already exists from when the car was lead acid, and the front to rear battery cables are already long enough to reach the front rack, so no major fab work will be needed.

4. Make polypropylene battery boxes front and rear. I’m intrigued by dtbaker’s use of 1/4" polypropylene and a heat welder and want to follow in his footsteps here with some nice looking DIY boxes. Well, maybe not nice looking, but definitely DIY. 

5. Band all batteries in groups of 6 with a strapper. The strapping is just for organizational neatness and ease of handling.

6. And the biggie… add air conditioning! The car had it originally and still appears to have the evaporator and all the underhood wiring intact. But everything else was removed. Unfortunately the open fittings were not capped when the expansion valve was removed, so I assume the evaporator will be bad since it’s been open to the elements for a few years. BUT at least it should be replaceable, it’s not like I’m starting from ground zero and building an AC system. There’s plenty of room up front for a condenser, I’ll just have to decide how to handle the compressor. Either pulley off the Warp9, a second motor dedicated to a stock compressor, or a Masterflux style compressor. I lean towards the Masterflux since I don’t have a compressor at all right now, but it’s pretty steep $$ so we’ll see as I get further into that project research. Still a little time for this one, no urgency on getting aircon.

That’s it for now! Looks like we may have a few hours tomorrow after school, we’ll see if we can get that sucker yanked out!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Finally got the motor out!!! It took me a week to find the time to do one hour of work… Told you this isn’t going to be a quick (re)build. 

Here’s the obligatory ‘motor hovering over the car’ shot with my helper/hoist operator,










a few more of the motor/trans, and empty car.



















Hope to have the motor/trans separated cleaned and inspected in the next few days, then I’ll see what I need to do in order to get it back together.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dladd said:


> 3. Replace the component shelf with polypropylene. It is currently clear acrylic (at least I assume It’s acrylic) which looks cool, but it is pretty difficult to work with.
> 
> 4. Make polypropylene battery boxes front and rear. I’m intrigued by dtbaker’s use of 1/4" polypropylene and a heat welder and want to follow in his footsteps here with some nice looking DIY boxes. Well, maybe not nice looking, but definitely DIY.
> 
> 5. Band all batteries in groups of 6 with a strapper. The strapping is just for organizational neatness and ease of handling.



dude... you're dissing my polypro welding.  ?!

actually, its very easy to work with, although it makes a mess of the garage with the chips having significant 'static cling' to everything. The heat-welding is easy... like caulking, but you really need the tip that lets you feed in the rod of material like a TIG welder to do a decent job. The poly gets a little flexy, and needs at least aluminum 'edges' to keep long spans straight.

the strapping thing is separate, but pretty easy way to make 3,4,5 cell blocks more manageable. The 'ends' may be better with plates to prevent bowing, but maybe not. I am not convinced that tight banding is better... if tightly constrained, than an overcharge event (causing by internal overheating) would be even more likely to vent rather than flex a little, so I don't see any real advantage to tight banding...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> dude... you're dissing my polypro welding.  ?!


No way! I hope my boxes come out as well as yours! thanks for the info on the feeder attachment, I was wondering if that was worth buying with the heat gun.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

david,

I cant remember the weather where you are at. The reason I had them all in the trunk is to keep them the same temp. I worried about having some up front in 20F weather and some in the trunk at 40F perhaps for no reason. Also its easier to get them above 32F in the trunk for charging (spec sheet says cant charge below freezing.) but yes its bottom heavy.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dladd said:


> No way! I hope my boxes come out as well as yours! thanks for the info on the feeder attachment, I was wondering if that was worth buying with the heat gun.



The rod/feeder nozzle thing is key to directing the heat right to a small area and getting the filler rod pressed in there as you go.

regarding same temps of batteries in separate locations.... thats part of why I wanted to have both front and rear boxes of similar construction and totally enclosed in the winter. because my original build was lead, the boxes are deep enough to put rigid foam in the bottoms, but I decided to leave the side un-insulated and may just put a layer of mylar space blanket in there as it doesn't get very cold where I live and my car is in a 50 degree garage overnight...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dexion said:


> david,
> 
> I cant remember the weather where you are at. The reason I had them all in the trunk is to keep them the same temp. I worried about having some up front in 20F weather and some in the trunk at 40F perhaps for no reason. Also its easier to get them above 32F in the trunk for charging (spec sheet says cant charge below freezing.) but yes its bottom heavy.


Yeah, in the dead of winter we never go below freezing. There will be some temp difference, but I don't think it's too bad. Most of the year is between 50-80 degrees during the day.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

quick question here! I just pulled the cover off the motor and peeked into the brushes. One of the brushes was not being held in by it's clip, as shown in the first photo below. I played with it a bit before taking this picture, so I don't know if all those marks were already there, or if I made them by putting the clip on and off before taking the photo.

The second photo shows the brush after I clipped it in place. It appears to be much more prominent than the adjacent brush. My assumption is that this is because it has been unclipped, and so it has not worn as much. 

So, my questions are:

1) what happens on a motor if one of the brushes is unclipped like this? Will it damage the motor in any way? Is it possible that it's been this way for a long time with no ill affects?

2) Does it matter that now one brush is not worn the same amount as the rest?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

alright, got an answer on the brush issue over in the motor forum (answer: don't worry about it).

So, new stupid question of the night... how do I hold the pressure plate from turning when removing it's bolts from the flywheel?  

Side note, I gassed up my van today. The pump shut off at $100 and it wasn't full yet!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Regarding the brush, were you able to get that metal clip to hold it down properly again? If yes, then I agree its not an issue.

For the pressure plate, ideally you would jamb it with something. Even a thick steel coat hanger that is twist tied to something on the transmission and the flywheel might do the trick. Or in some cases you can smack the handle of the wrench with your palm hard enough that the inertial of the flywheel is enough to break the bolt torque.

Last time I had mine apart, I was able to do it all by hand even with loctite on the bolts. Although if they are rusty, that may not apply.

Regarding the van? you know the answer to that

Just a suggestion, but you might find it easier to install and remove the motor and transmission assembly with the transmission mount on the transmission itself and undoing the hold down nut from under the car instead (Metric 15mm). That way the stem hangs down when you lower everything in place and aligns that half of the powertrain for you.


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

dladd said:


> how do I hold the pressure plate from turning when removing it's bolts from the flywheel?


Great question. One answer: borrow or buy an impact air hammer wrench. It will make short work of any bolt (great for exhaust parts) and will "surprise" the mass so much you won't even need to lock it somehow. I recommend Ingersoll Rand 2135 TiMax, you can find em on eBay. That's what I have and it's amazing. If you ever do other car work with big bolts, it will be worth the buy as a time-saving investment.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

i do have an air wrench, but I prefer to not use it unless I have to. It just seems so 'brute force'-ish...  Plus, while it may help remove stuff, I'd still need a way to hold everything still on reassembly.

was able to use the motor mount strategically wedged into the pressure plate held with a large crescent wrench to hold the pressure plate from rotating while removing the bolts.

So far, everything looks great. I haven't found anything I need to replace yet. Even the clutch disc looks new. Which I guess isn't surprising since Dex said the clutch didn't work, so the disc essentially was used as a fixed coupler. There is a slight runout on the flywheel (which has the ring gear removed, btw), maybe .007" at the most (crude measurement with calipers), but I don't feel any vibration in the motor when spun up on 12v with just the flywheel attached. And there's zero wobble, nice and flat. I don't plan on removing the flywheel since that would potentially open up a whole can of worms regarding the coupler, and since the motor and everything looks fine I see no reason to anyway.

I've got a lot of degreasing to do (inside the bellhousing, and the outside of the whole trans) then it will be on to reassembly!

oh yeah, I peeked in the speed sensor port and the diff pin looks perfectly centered. No worries there!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't think the diff pin comes loose unless you're doing something silly with the car although maybe I've just been lucky with mine. My flywheel also had some wobble and runout to it, but I had that all taken care of the last time it was apart. Maybe its a saturn thing but the truth is, a 4cyl vibrates a certain amount anyway, so whatever defects they had at the factory were probably never noticed in most cases.

I thought about suggesting an impact driver, but that is a bit harsh for such a small bolt.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

The Dif Pin issues is only parent if you are doing burn outs. If you burn one tire for to long, the Gears head up on the Pin and start to twist it, thus destroying the Roll Pin which allows the Diff pin to slide out into your trans case.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

david85 said:


> I don't think the diff pin comes loose unless you're doing something silly with the car although maybe I've just been lucky with mine.





> The Dif Pin issues is only parent if you are doing burn outs.


Well, yes and no.

I have seen 4 cars with diff pin failures, and probably 100 without. 3 of the failures were 5 speed cars, one automatic. All had over 100,000 miles, but I've heard of failures as low as 60,000.

What actually works the pin loose is differential action, that is, loading and spinning the gears that are on the diff pin. If you never turn the front wheels, and never turn one tire faster than the other, the gears on the diff pin would never be turned in the carrier, stressing the roll pin that retains it, and the whole thing would stay in position forever. The likelihood that the pin will move is directly proportional to the amount of differential action (and stress) it is subjected to.

Spinning one tire is the worst thing you can do with the car. Second worst is driving on the temporary spare. That's probably what did in my '95 wagon 5 speed. 50 miles on that spare. (BTW, there is absolutely nothing in the Owner's manual about not running the spare on the front axle.) I know a road racer who puts serious stress on a stock gearbox, which hasn't failed in 4 seasons. He thinks its because he isn't using the diff much, rolling on power mostly with the wheels in a straight line, and never spinning one of them.

My gearbox actually broke at 1mph, pulling away from the curb up a steep hill, which is all differential action, and maximum stress on it given the gentle way my wife and I drove it. 

Its something to think about, and once you crack a transmission open on the street, you think carefully about how you are stressing that lowly diff pin. Be careful not to spin the tires on snow and ice. No heavy torque applied with the wheels turned sharply. No burnouts. Same size tires always, with the same pressure side to side. So yes, abuse will drive out the diff pin, but so will other operational situations that are not really abusive. Its not really a luck thing- frequent, high-torque or sustained differential action WILL work the pin to failure, its just that such operation doesn't usually happen in most of the cars on the road.

The big problem is that these cars are now old, and in most cases you don't know how the transmissions have been treated the whole time, so its a bit of a crapshot. The best you can do is treat them right yourself, and keep your fingers crossed. Oh, yeah, and grab a low mileage spare if one crosses your path. They've gotten pricey, especially when you need one "right now..."


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Got the motor/trans mated together last night, everything looks good! Did a quick 12v spin and it was nice and smooth. I also recived a box of parts from EVSource.com  Motor blower kit and rear motor mount. It looks like their prefabbed mount will be pretty close right out of the box, so I decided to buy and modify it rather than have one built locally from scratch. I will still need to have the torsion mount made after it's all installed though.

No pics/video of the reassembly process, but nothing too exciting happened. You've seen one clutch you've seen them all! 

I've got some cutting to do, and need to go buy a new blade for my jigsaw (I HATE losing tools!) before I can start. The garage could use a little organizing, cleaning, and sweeping before rolling the car back in as well. Not sure if I'll get to reinstalling the motor/trans today or not, we'll see how it goes.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

any Saturn owners who are looking here, I have a question if you happen to know/remember... Is the center of the motor/engine in line between the two bolts for the upper passenger side motor mount? My motor was mounted that way, but it does not look right to me. To my eye, it seems like the center of the motor ought to be about 1" rearward from the centerline of the two upper bolts.

Am I making sense?

anyway, motor's back in the car, but I don't have the passenger side mounts re-done yet, cause I'm just not confident on where the motor ought to be...

Unfortunately, I sorta have to do something tonight (probably just a temp solution) so I can move the hoist that's currently holding the motor and roll the car all the way in the garage tonight!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Unfortunately, I'd have to remove one of my battery boxes to answer that question. 

All I did to set my motor in position was line it up so that it was parallel with the radiator support at the front of the engine bay, then lift the passenger side as far as needed to make the CV shaft roughly 1" abovethe K member since thats how high it is on the transmission [driver's] side where the OEM mount was still intact.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

I don't have a Saturn currently, but I've had two and worked on a couple more, and I'm pretty sure you're right- the frame side pad for the Torque Axis Mount is definitely not centered on the crankshaft.

Looking around on Google, I actually found a picture that shows this:

http://arrc.epnet.com/autoapp/8956/chiltonimages/8956/89563pc1.jpg

Notice how the plane that passes through the centerline of the spark plug holes, which is centered between the camshafts and is plumb above the crankshaft below, are not in line with the two frame holes for the TA mount.

IIRC, there are two reasons for this. First, the engine side mounting pad for the TA mount, which is cast into the timing cover, is not centered on the crankshaft. I think its a little forward of that. Second, I don't think the TA mount itself is actually symmetrical. I think the frame site mounting holes are a little offset from the engine side mounting holes, but I don't have one here to check.

In any case, the picture above clearly shows what you surmised- that the engine crankshaft centerline is about an inch rearward of the center of the two threaded holes in the frame where the TA mount bolts in. Here's another set of shots that don't show it as well, but confirm what I remembered about it (and the PITA water pump change I had forgotten about...)

http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/p3g/Misc/saturnrebuild/saturnrebuild.htm

Scroll down to the shots of the motor fully dressed with the TA mount on it. Sort of looks like what you thought, but it isn't very clear.

Anyway, I think you're right, and without a positive location for the old lower passenger side mount, either, you're kind of guessing where the motor should be located. A good check is to find the centerline of the drive wheels and compare it to the plane of the motor. 

There are several ways to do that, but I'd mark a line on top of the motor that's parallel with the motor shaft. Then I'd hang plumb bobs from the centers of the wheel hubs, mark the floor, roll the car back two feet, connect the marks with a straight line, return the car to the original spot and take a look. The motor line should be parallel to the line on the floor...

And while you're at it, put an angle finder on the motor and make sure its level side to side, too.

HTH...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for the info!! Vertically I used an angle finder and just set the motor flat. For the front/back, I ended up tying a line across the strut towers and then just eyeballing the motor to the line. It's close enough! I took some measurements and need to have a piece of angle cut/welded to fit. For the time being, I strapped the motor up with a tie down and moved on to installing the axles. 

Holy crap, I can't get the driver side axle into the transmission.  i feel like such a dope. Not sure why it won't seat, but I'm frustrated, giving up for tonight and will try again with a fresh attitude in the morning.

good night.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Alright, with the light of a new morning, the axle slipped right in. Go figure.  Actually, the key was simple, I put the trans in 1st gear which held the internal spline from rotating a little better and let the axle rotate relative to the mating spline just enough to fine a nice engagement. sort of a 'duh' moment.

Anyway, here are a few pics from the last few days... 

here's the inside of the trans when I split it apart. Not too bad, a bit greasy. It cleaned up nicely, but I forgot to take a picture of it looking clean.










here we are dropping the motor in. You can see the new endplate on the CE side, it is an off the shelf bolt on (many bolt hole options) mounting plate with a foot. I like that better than the clamp that was on there before. I had measured the angle of tilt that ended up working to pull the motor out, and set it to that before starting. Motor/trans dropped right in with the help of some guiding hands. 










this is more or less the motor's final resting spot. you can see the strap up to the hoist still holding up the motor end, the string tied between the strut towers, and the angle gauge. I still need to make the final connection between the new end plate and the existing rubber mounts which will be simple, two angles welded together. I can cut and fab the parts, but will have to take them to someone to be welded together. Oh, you can see the intake cover on the motor for the blower in this pic too. It does not enter the motor in the most ideal spot from a mounting/routing point of view, but it will work fine. 










time to get ready for some soccer games, I hope to swing by the hardware store and pick up some angle iron later today and mess around with the mount. I also bought a sheet of HDPE to make my component shelf, I have to transfer all my components and wiring over to that too.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

got a bunch of little things done today, one of them was replacing the clutch master cylinder/slave assembly (it's sold as a pre-bled kit). The old one had the hydraulic hose replaced with fuel line!  No wonder it didn't work... Dex, please tell me that wasn't you.  I can't actually test it yet, but it has a good feel now. It is certainly possible that something more major is wrong and the hose was replaced with fuel line just to stop it from leaking, knowing it doesn't work anyway. I won't really know about the clutch till I get it running.

I've also started on the wiring. It's a little mind boggling, I'm not sure how to start... I replaced the component shelf material with HDPE, but haven't mounted anything yet. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to start, like which part to put down first. Everything is wired to everything else, so many parts, and I'm trying to be forward thinking and leaving enough space for a bigger/different controller in the future. As well as anticipating moving some batteries up front, adding the motor blower, and adding a manual disconnect under the hood (that I can operate from the drivers seat via a cable). I'm kinda brainlocked on where to start mounting stuff! I think I need to just do it, then change it later if needed. No big deal, right?


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## sxekevin (Oct 9, 2011)

I am very interested in this build. I just joined this forum because I am interested in making an electric Saturn. The nice thing about the Saturn S-series is that it is light weight (avg. 2,400 lbs). With such light weight I'm sure you could get the 0-60 time in 9 secs easily.

If you have any questions about the Saturn I may be able to help, I have owned 7 so far. I'm also a member on saturnfans.com 

You should definitely use ATF Mobil 1 Synthetic for your trans. It helps with smooth shifting.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

sxekevin said:


> I am very interested in this build. I just joined this forum because I am interested in making an electric Saturn. The nice thing about the Saturn S-series is that it is light weight (avg. 2,400 lbs). With such light weight I'm sure you could get the 0-60 time in 9 secs easily.
> 
> If you have any questions about the Saturn I may be able to help, I have owned 7 so far. I'm also a member on saturnfans.com
> 
> You should definitely use ATF Mobil 1 Synthetic for your trans. It helps with smooth shifting.


Cool, nice to have another set of Saturn eyes on the build! I was a little surprised to see that they recommend ATF in a manual tranny. Is this common?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

ATF in the manual is normal. Its really on there for lubrication and keeping the parts cooler.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

finished up the passenger side mount tonight, basically just two pieces of angle that will be welded back to back. this is the piece that connects the old frame bracket (with the rubber mounts on it) to the new motor bracket. Here it is drilled, trimmed (that's my super accurate cutout for the motor blower  and bolted together with tiny little screws. I'm gonna take it down to someone to weld it together tomorrow. It will not be seen, so I'm not concerned about how it looks...










I also got moving on the wiring. Mostly things are going back where they were, with some very minor changes. I am making sure that the space for the controller is large enough to fit any of the main contenders I'm considering upgrading to. They are (in no particular order) the Soliton Jr, Synkromotive, Zilla Z1K-LV (which includes mounting the Hairball) and the WarP Drive. No amount of moving stuff around would allow the Soliton1 to fit, but it's out of my budget (and needs) anyway. 










Also spent some time figuring out how to route the blower hose, and where to mount the actual blower. It's going to mount nicely under the front battery rack, totally out of the way of anything. I have not mounted it yet, but at least I know where it will go. progress!


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Nice build. 

I've always wished to see more Saturn builds. I used to have a 93 SL2 and it was a great reliable little car. I come from a big Saturn family - we love em!

I think your cars "arrow wedge shape," as my wife calls it, will make it great aerodynamically. As another poster said, should be quite peppy. Keep it up!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

notailpipe said:


> Nice build.
> 
> I've always wished to see more Saturn builds. I used to have a 93 SL2 and it was a great reliable little car. I come from a big Saturn family - we love em!
> 
> I think your cars "arrow wedge shape," as my wife calls it, will make it great aerodynamically. As another poster said, should be quite peppy. Keep it up!


I really like the little saturn. It's also cool to me that it shares a little bit in common with the EV1. Not much obviously, but it was made around the same time, and has a definite visual resemblance (at least to my eye). And since EV1's were leased through Saturn dealers, it may have even spent time with one at some point. 

I finally got the motor mount all installed today! Just for kicks I spun the motor up on 12v.  Nice and smooth, first gear, check! clutch in, brake on, wheels stopped and the motor didn't, clutch worked!! Went through the gears, no problems. 

Lots of wiring to put back together, but it could be running pretty soon! Assuming the controller works that is,,, the scorching marks between the motor terminals and the old motor screen worry me that it saw a short between A1 (power negative), A2 (jumpered to S2) and the motor case, not sure what that would do to it. 

we'll find out soon


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

it's alive!

an hour here, an hour there, and over the last few days I've gotten all the wiring back in place. I used a light smear of NO-OX ID "A Special" on the high voltage cable connections (all 2/0). When I was all done and ready to test, I went back and checked and rechecked ALL my wiring a few times. With the high voltage breaker off, I turned on the key and checked all the 12v systems. All good! I have not yet put in the motor fan, and pulled the fuse for the controller fans (just so I could hear any problems a bit easier), the only sound was the contactor engaging, and the vacuum pump pressurizing. 12v where it should be, good to go! Power off, breaker on, ready for the real deal.  Here's the final look of the component shelf all wired up, pretty much looks like it did before. I moved stuff around a little, but just detail work. The basics didn't change.










I did my first full voltage test (well, almost full, the batteries are all at 3.30v) with the wheels up. Good thing!! As soon as I turned on the key the motor spun up.  simple problem, the throttle cable was not seated correctly in the housing at the potbox. Still, I sort of thought there was some kind of safety that wouldn't let the controller come on if the throttle was on.  guess that's only on the new computer controlled fancy controllers (this is a Logisystems 750a). OK, try again... key on, nothing but the vacuum pump. Yeah! I voltmetered a few spots and everything was looking good. 12v where it should be, 158v where it should be!  I blipped the potbox by hand, the motor spun up. Nice!

In the car I worked the throttle a bit and ran through the gears. All good. Checked the DC/DC output. good. Checked the heater. yup, it heats. Checked all the lights. yup, everything works. No more stalling, time to drop the car off the jackstands and try it out. It was about 10pm and obviously dark, but I couldn't wait till morning, I'm sure you know the feeling! I coasted backwards down the driveway into the street on gravity and put it in second gear. clutch in, some throttle, I could hear the motor spin up. Clutch slowly out, and I'm off!  Very cool. I ended up doing around 5 miles around the neighborhood, it ran smooth as long as I started with the clutch. Trying to start out in gear without the clutch was jerky, and without the final torsion mount installed on the motor yet I don't want to risk it so I stuck with using the clutch the whole time.

Successful first test, it's currently non-op'd at the DMV so I've got to go back down there and get it all legal before I drive it anymore. I'm going to start that process tomorrow morning, not sure how hard it will be. I know it will involve a smog referee inspection at a minimum, not sure what all they will need to see.

Here's one more picture of it in the garage plugged in and charging.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I didn't wait until morning either

Congrats!


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Nice job! That's really exciting!


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Nice to see it coming back to life, well done!


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Nice job glad the controller was ok.

Clutch never even looked didnt use it (the lines). It its possible to pull out smoothly after a while you may never use it. MY GF on the other hand really could have used it.

Open pot lockout. The LS doesnt have it correct. However now that the clutch is working you can use the orginal pot (its big and brown) that should be in that case reattach the fiddly bits that hold the microswitch (should all be in a box I sent.) And put the microswitch across the KSI. Without the KSI the controller wont power on. Or you can use it to open/close the main contactor but I didnt like that because of the inrush.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dexion said:


> Nice job glad the controller was ok.


me too, I guess. I admit I was sorta hoping it wouldn't be ok so it would be easier to justify something else...  Maybe Santa will bring me a new one in a few months. 



dexion said:


> Open pot lockout. The LS doesnt have it correct. However now that the clutch is working you can use the orginal pot (its big and brown) that should be in that case reattach the fiddly bits that hold the microswitch (should all be in a box I sent.) And put the microswitch across the KSI. Without the KSI the controller wont power on. Or you can use it to open/close the main contactor but I didnt like that because of the inrush.


I'll probably play with it a bit, but for now I'm just happy to get it on the road. The transmission in my van has started slipping, and I'd really like to get that fixed before it becomes even more expensive than it is already going to be. It's a 1998 with only 75k miles, most of it's life has been spent flying up and down the highway, not going to school and back and all around town in a bunch of short trips. it's not used to having to be used every day, and it doesn't like it!

Still lots to do on the Saturn, but at least it's driveable.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

drove it a bit today, down to the DMV for it's initial verification, then the long way home on the freeway (I had picked up a one day 'pass' from the DMV earlier this morning). only about 8 miles total, but a little at highway speed.

Interesting... I'm getting smoother, but it's still tough to leave the line smoothly. Once moving, it's fine. When I'm in traffic, it doesn't work to use the clutch to take off, I can't hear the motor (and there's no tach).

There's an ammeter on the battery side, I never saw over 300 as far as I could tell. But getting on the freeway I did hear what I assume was the low voltage alarm from the Mini-BMS (this was with a fully charged battery). I was going around 50-60, accelerating pretty hard in third gear. I had to be careful not to give it too much throttle because the potentiometer goes too far for the controller and shuts it down with too much pedal. I already knew this would happen from talking with Dex a while ago.

All in all, it felt good and had respectable power. Certainly plenty to be invisible to anyone on the road.

The kids loved it, but think it needs an 'electric' sticker so people will look at us more.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dladd said:


> ...When I'm in traffic, it doesn't work to use the clutch to take off...


Why would you want to use the clutch to take off? With a manual transmission and a 9" motor, you shouldn't need it. Leave in in gear and just drive away; shift when you need more speed. Or, am I missing something?


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

unless you changed it, amps are battery amps not motor amps. I liked to know what i was taking from the cells. Ive never gotten a LV alarm something is wrong unless its really cold there perhaps but i also never drove 6000 rpms either. You shouldnt have to assume, its pretty loud and peircing the alarm. Pull one of the white wires off a cell to get an idea of what it sounds like. I did have one of the sensor wires come lose (on the loop) at some point and it would sound the alarm from time to time until i went over each cell and wiggled the wire to replicate it. I also drove very gently so perhaps im just not that much of a lead foot to get the alarm. I limited the controller to 300 battery amps you shouldnt see any more than that with the current settings.

50-60 in 3rd may be too fast for the motor. Calculated rpm's are about 6000 at 60mph i never went over 50 in 3rd and that was very brief. id normally shift around 45 into 4th then 4th is good from 45 to 65.

I never used 1st

2nd is good to 35
3rd is good to 45
4th is good to 65


Most of the time i used 3rd and kept it around 45.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> Why would you want to use the clutch to take off? With a manual transmission and a 9" motor, you shouldn't need it. Leave in in gear and just drive away; shift when you need more speed. Or, am I missing something?


I don't 'want' to use the clutch, but I'm having a real hard time getting smooth starts, and I don't yet have my final motor mount made (a torsion mount on the motor side) so I'm wanting to take it easy on the mounts that are there. I don't want it to rip out the trans again!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dladd said:


> I don't 'want' to use the clutch, but I'm having a real hard time getting smooth starts, and I don't yet have my final motor mount made (a torsion mount on the motor side) so I'm wanting to take it easy on the mounts that are there. I don't want it to rip out the trans again!


I see. Maybe it's a controller issue. I've read that some controllers and/or pot boxes are jerky when starting off, then smooth out.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dexion said:


> unless you changed it, amps are battery amps not motor amps. I liked to know what i was taking from the cells. Ive never gotten a LV alarm something is wrong unless its really cold there perhaps but i also never drove 6000 rpms either. You shouldnt have to assume, its pretty loud and peircing the alarm. Pull one of the white wires off a cell to get an idea of what it sounds like. I did have one of the sensor wires come lose (on the loop) at some point and it would sound the alarm from time to time until i went over each cell and wiggled the wire to replicate it. I also drove very gently so perhaps im just not that much of a lead foot to get the alarm. I limited the controller to 300 battery amps you shouldnt see any more than that with the current settings.
> 
> 50-60 in 3rd may be too fast for the motor. Calculated rpm's are about 6000 at 60mph i never went over 50 in 3rd and that was very brief. id normally shift around 45 into 4th then 4th is good from 45 to 65.
> 
> ...


whoops.  Can't be sure of the speed I was going, I was watching the road not the dash... I did shift to 4th in there somewhere, I think after I heard the beep sound. All windows were down and there were lots of cars around, so it could also have been someone else around me, but it sounded like it came from right behind me (where that alarm is). Anyway, I'll have to do more testing. And maybe get a tach...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so a month or so ago when I first got the car, I went to the DMV to start the registration (out of state car). At that time, they said I couldn't really do much without an official VIN inspection, but they could at least get it in the system under my name, and take my money... I told the worker at that time that it was an electric conversion, so he entered motive power as E. Which would obviously be verified later by the inspector, but I think it really helped my cause to have it entered this way from the get-go.

Anyway, yesterday I went back down there, got a one day pass to drive on the roads, and drove the car down. The inspection consisted of a DMV worker looking at the VIN number, checking a few boxes, and handing me back the paperwork. I then told her that it was electric, and asked her to change the motive power to "E" on her form so it would match what was in the computer (she hadn't even noticed, despite 'inspecting' something under the hood...). So... after a brief discussion where she informed me I was a little bit off to pay $7000 for batteries to build a car that could only go 50 miles (hard to argue on the surface, and I'm certainly not inclined to go into any deep discussion of the merits with her) she changed it to "E".

Lines were too long to go back inside and finish up the paperwork, so I made an appointment for this morning. Went back down this morning, verification in hand, mostly expecting them to tell me I had to go to an official smog referee or something since I shouldn't have to be smogged anymore. Instead, the counter worker typed in some info, charged me more money for registration (only paid transfer tax last time), and handed me a new set of license plates and registration stickers!  Holy crap, I'm legal!  Way easier than I was expecting.

Although I guess I should hold off judgement until I get my renewal next year and see if it says I have to get a smog check.


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Nice! I'm most concerned about this part, oddly enough. I feel like if something mechanical breaks I can fix it but if there's some crazy red-tape I run into, I'm not prepared for those problems. Glad it was so easy for you. 

I'm kinda surprised they even looked under your hood. I keep joking that I could spray paint some 2L bottles chrome and stuff the hood with them and they'd be like "so that's an electric car, huh?"

What are you doing to advertise that the car is electric, if anything?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

notailpipe said:


> What are you doing to advertise that the car is electric, if anything?


Haven't decided yet. My wife's car is natural gas (a factory CNG Honda Civic GX) and it has green NGV stickers on both sides, and a blue CNG diamond on the rear (both from the factory). She also has a plate frame that says something to the effect of, 'powered by 100% domestically produced energy.' Not much, but enough that it's pretty common to have someone ask me about the car when I'm driving it around town. I'll probably do something similar, a few small decals or a plate frame.

Maybe a bumper sticker that says, "electric powered, no dead soldiers required"  nah, that would just get my ass kicked. Even here in California!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

picked up my kids from school today, ~10 miles with a few on the freeway. I'm getting better at the starts, but still... that initial 'clunk' when going from zero to any throttle just makes me wince. It CANT be good for the transmission/driveline. Violent.  I only used the clutch to start a few times today, once when I was starting out up a hill and just didn't trust it to go smoothly.

No alarms today, nothing weird, just ran nice. I drove very normally, no quick starts, no hard accelerations, never went past the throttle max, just drove it like a simple around town car. Felt fine on the freeway up to 65 in 4th gear. I drove a few miles on surface streets just keeping it in third gear. it starts out OK from a stop in third. Basically something like this. CLUNK! followed by mild accelleration that steadily builds up to about 35mph (which is how fast I was generally driving), then stop at the next stop light/sign, then listen to the slightly louder than I would prefer vacuum pump, then do it again.  

When I got home I checked out the temps under the hood. The motor was warm, but certainly not hot. The controller was HOT. Both have full time fans running while driving.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

get yourself one of these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM300-Non-C...883?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb82b0d93

I used it saw about 140F on the brushes and the controller at about 130F as well after 27 miles. Without those compaq server fans id imagine the controller would have blown (like most of the others.) 

So you can get an actual numbers baseline to see if theres an issue. Controller they say can be 170 and still be ok. Motor i dont think the batteries can last lng enough to hurt a warp nine actually being driven not just stalled but its class h insulation.

You can pull out smoothly in third but it takes practive but using the clutch would be better or a smoother controller but that controller will not DIE.
dammit.

Hard to replace a working controller and no one wants it so theres no resale.

get that mid mount done or you will be sans a cv/trans mount again.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dexion said:


> Hard to replace a working controller and no one wants it so theres no resale.
> 
> get that mid mount done or you will be sans a cv/trans mount again.


after thinking about it a while and doing some more reading last night, I've decided to replace the controller. the WAF is very important on this car (wife acceptance factor) it needs to be easy to drive. Even though I'll be the 99% driver, for that 1% she drives it (or a family member, friend, etc.) I want it to be a very positive EV experience. The Logisystems is not positive...

I've narrowed it down to the Soliton Jr. or the Synkromotive controller. I like the simplicity of air cooling on the Synkro, but there's just not much info out there about it. The Jr seems more proven (though I think that's just a perception due to those guys being so active on the forum), but will need water cooling, costs a little bit more, and has 150 less amps (not that I really would use them all anyway...). 

I'm pretty much done with the last motor mount, conceptually anyway. It will use another stock Saturn motor mount link (same as the one on the top of the trans) that goes from the motor mount plate to the frame. I have to pull the mount off to drill a hole in it, then make a plate to put on the frame. I'm currently leaning towards riveting the plate to the frame instead of welding, because it's a fairly thin walled closed box section of frame right there and I think I'd be better off with 6-8 rivets instead of trying to have it welded on. Worst case it pops some rivets down the road and I have it welded anyway. Should be done with that mount soon though.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

i was ready for the jr as well when the old one went. You shouldnt need to water cool it that car is light. Water cooling a jr allows max rating all the time but not water cooled you can still do max rating for 2 minutes before it derates. On that car two minutes at 750 amps is going to be over 100mph. Jr fits well in the space as well. Stick the logi on a shelf as a spare in case i guess. That may be one of the higest mile logis on the planet without blowing up damn thing. Its got 30000 miles on it driven mostly in 3rd gear. I was at about 225wh a mile at 40mph so I figured a safe range at 70 not 50 miles. But with 300wh a mile (highway speeds) safe would be around 50 then. I guess you need to test run it 40 miles and time the recharge since the amp meter on the chargers seem accurage and see what you will get with it once you get used to the car. The jr is more efficient as well so your milage will go up some. Also keep in mind ive limited the motor amps to around 500 as well so a jr will be more powerful than now by half. The tach is fairly easy to get working with the mag pickup that is sold for the warp nine. You can get the stock tach on the dash working. I never needed it i always just drove in 3rd up to about 45 couldnt go faster because of traffic.

mag pickup: http://www.rechargecar.com/ at this point its 99 with free shipping.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I'm running the soliton jr right now and it seems to be living up to the claims. 

As far as soft starts are concerned, I can tell you right now that it won't be an issue. Starts from 0RPM are smooth as butter right out of the box, but you can still adjust the throttle delay response if you want to. Once you're rolling, the car accelerates steadily for the same pedal position until you let off and settle into your cruise (or you reach max speed for that power setting). 

I also like the fact that you can use an RPM sensor and program a maximum motor speed. This lets me floor the car in neutral and the motor won't fly itself apart if the driver makes a mistake. The way I have my car running, I could probably hand the keys to anyone now.

I am also running it without air *[EDIT: meant to say water cooling]* cooling (my car is about 3000lbs) and haven't run out of power yet. The controller is sometimes warm to the touch but never hot.

The built in contacter and precharge also make the install very quick and easy. Simply key a 12V source to the proper terminal on the side of the controller and it will automatically go through precharge. You can even wire your check engine light into error output and it will stay on until precharge is complete (unless a falt code is detected - something I have yet to observe). Its just a nice little extra feature that lets you know the car is doing what its supposed to.

I have no personal experience with the synkromotive controller, but from what I hear, its more powerful for about half the weight. From what I understand (Some one please call me out if I am wrong) the synkromotive doesn't have a built in contactor, so you'll have to wire that up yourself at an extra cost (but if you already have one - that doesn't matter). In terms of performance, price and features, both controllers seem to be fairly well matched when you factor in the lighter weight and higher power of the synkro. 

I still went with the jr simply because it was out there for a bit longer. So far the reviews of the synkro are good however. (just trying to be fair)


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

don't worry David, we knew you meant water.  I'm very interested in how the Junior works in your car, obviously it's quite similar size/battery capacity to what I've got! Where are you setting the current limits? How's performance? Anyway, I've certainly not read anything bad about the Soliton, but then I've not read anything bad about the Synkro either. The problem with the Synkro is I've not read much about it either way! He has been very responsive to my questions though, and sent me links to a few folks using their controllers which I thought was cool.

It's hard to deny the aesthetic beauty of the Soliton. The Synkro is a bit more... rough looking, just a simple box with a fan sticking out the side as an apparent afterthought. I also don't really like that the motor outputs are on opposite sides of the box on the Synkromotive, makes running the cables from the controller to the motor a little more challenging. Anyway, I know form and function are two different things, but Synkro could really use some input from an industrial designer. 

anyway, another day another update. Used the EV as our shuttle car yesterday to a school festival and a few soccer games (only one more weekend of soccer to go!). It's working well, put just over 15 miles on it yesterday. 

I don't have much instrumentation yet, just a pack voltmeter and a battery side amp gauge. However, since my daily usage is pretty low for the size battery pack I'm going to take my time deciding what kind of monitoring to ultimately get. It will depend on what controller I end up with, and what it offers for data acquisition/display.

I also happened to be there when my charger hit end of charge, it shut off at 166.1 volts, so I'm getting to 3.46 vpc. Some of the shunting lights were on (MiniBMS), but the charger ended charge before any cells tripped the high voltage signal.

Last night I also pulled it apart a bit to work on the 4th motor mount. I've changed my design a bit on the fly, so I can make it entirely with parts that I already have in my garage and it won't need any welding so I can finish it today and not have to wait till Monday to bring it to a welder.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Finished up the motor end torque mount today! I think it's pretty good, you can also see the finished upper mount in these photo's,,,




























I was originally wanting to attach it to the frame on the other side of the torque strut with some type of flat plate with a bolt welded onto it, but this was easier and there's plenty of room. Plus I had this welded piece of angle already lying around, it is the old upper motor mount I replaced earlier. It's bolted down directly to the battery rack which is VERY solidly welded to the frame. No strength worries there. There's still enough room on the battery rack for 12 cells when I move them up out of the trunk. I still have to remove the bracket to clean it up a little and paint it, but I needed to get the car running for the week. I'll paint it later.

here's a few shots of the motor blower and hose routing. The blower is rubber mounted to the underside of the front battery racks. I'm not terribly impressed with this blower, I don't think it's strong enough. [EDIT: I have no objective reason to question the blower. The kit was extremely easy to install, fits fine, and blows air. Just to my totally uncalibrated hand it doesn't feel like it moves that much air through the motor. I've done zero testing, and have nothing to base this doubt on. My main objective is not so much cooling anyway as I don't think I'll be stressing the Warp9 to it's limits, but a supply of fresh clean air, which this will certainly do. /EDIT]


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Looks like the kit from EV Source for your motor cooling...

What makes you say it's not strong enough? Has your motor been getting hot? Do you have it always on or temperature switch controlled?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

notailpipe said:


> Looks like the kit from EV Source for your motor cooling...
> 
> What makes you say it's not strong enough? Has your motor been getting hot? Do you have it always on or temperature switch controlled?


yes, it's that kit. I have no objective data for my doubts, just a wild ass guess. Basically when I turn on the blower and put my hand over the motor drive end vents, I don't feel much air blowing out. Nothings getting hot yet, but I'm not driving much, or hard, yet. And it's fall, temps are in the 60's. 

It may be fine, I think I'll put a thermocouple over the exhaust vents and track the temp that way. I could do some with/without blower tests to see what the delta is. For now, it's wired always on because that's simple.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I blipped the low voltage alarm on the MiniBMS again this morning. It was very similar to last time, accelerating onto the freeway in third gear. Basically it was a full throttle 0-60 run in 3rd gear trying to get up to speed of traffic, so probably 15 seconds at least at max throttle. I heard the alarm for just a second as I approached 60mph while pulling 300a from the batteries (48x 130ah cells). According to the numbers I can find online for my tranny and final drive ratio, 60mph in third gear is 5000rpm, so it's right up there on the high end of where I should be taking the motor. Anyway, I heard the alarm beep for just a second just as I was going to make the shift to 4th gear anyway. I was NOT able to visually see what my battery voltage was at that time, the gauge is fairly small and low resolution (+/- 10 volts would be hard to tell).


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

alright, I pulled the trigger on the Synkromotive. Though I sort of went both ways since I also ordered the Evnetics TPS.  I want no excuses for a smooth takeoff. In the meantime, I've gotten good at driving the car smoothly (using the clutch for most starts). Still, for it to be a truly plug and play car for other people to drive, it needs a better controller. Not only for smoothness, but for RPM limiting, battery low voltage protection, stuff like that.

Did some rewiring of the power input today, just cleaning up a bad crimp and adding a switch inside the trunk so I don't have to flip the circuit at the breaker after plugging in. Now I can plug in the cord to the car, flip on the switch (it's a double pole 20amp switch between the BMS controlled solid state relay and the charger), then plug in the Anderson connector to the battery pack.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

i never really had to pull 300 amps never really did more than 200 but is possible you have a lose or bad interconect. You may want to torque all the bolt heads (something i do every month) make sure your not making heat. I suppose 2.3 C is enough to bring cells down to 2.6v if they are cold though so nothing may be wrong with the interconnects. I also never really went 0 to 60 just 0 to 45.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dladd said:


> I blipped the low voltage alarm on the MiniBMS again this morning. It was very similar to last time, accelerating onto the freeway in third gear. Basically it was a full throttle 0-60 run in 3rd gear trying to get up to speed of traffic, so probably 15 seconds at least at max throttle. I heard the alarm for just a second as I approached 60mph while pulling 300a from the batteries (48x 130ah cells).


Like Dex said, you might have a dirty/loose terminal connection somewhere, developing extra voltage sag. After a test drive with a few heavy accelerations, quickly touch each terminal bolt ( one at a time with one hand in the pocket ) to see if some are noticeably warmer than others. Loose/dirty connection will cause the bolt to warm up, a giveaway of poor connection. Of course also check that all terminal bolts are tight.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks Dex and Dimitri, I'll definitely check out the terminal temps today after a hard run. I'm also going to avoid that freeway ramp and go home the other way... It's just too short to get up to speed, if I go the other way I get a longer ramp that is also downhill, much easier on the car.

Actually today I'm back to driving the big van, class trip to the pumpkin patch so I need seating for 4-5 kids.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> don't worry David, we knew you meant water.  I'm very interested in how the Junior works in your car, obviously it's quite similar size/battery capacity to what I've got! Where are you setting the current limits? How's performance?


Battery draw on Dimitri's EV display is 275 amps peak, which is enough to reach 80 MPH. The soliton controller settings are at 200 battery amps according to the settings though. I've never tried to explain the discrepancy since it runs fine as is and school keeps me pretty busy. Generally 200 amps on the display is enough for adequate acceleration. I have never tried the controller at 600 max battery AND motor amps in the tuning settings. Its tempting, but not THAT tempting....

Performance is quite good. With nearly 2000lbs on the front end, this isn't a tire squealer (tires are a bit large for the car too), but it can hold pace with traffic just fine. I don't fear any hills around town anymore, and it will make a mess of a gravel driveway if I'm not careful.

The tach doesn't read very well but I'm told some software tweaks later on could address this. Again, its not a big enough deal for me to care right now. I've been commuting with the car for a few weeks now and all the controller ever does is work properly. Its taken some getting used to.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm planning what I need to modify in order to install the Synkromotive, which should be here tomorrow.  The biggest thing is that the 150v loads (heater, DC/DC) currently tap off the controller side of the main contactor. I have to change this because of the way the Synkro handles the internal precharge. The power will need to be pulled off the battery side of the contactor instead, but I still want them switched on/off with the ignition.

My plan is to install a second EV200 contactor wired up to the battery side of the one that is already there, and use it to power all the 150v accessories. As a side benefit, I figure this gives me a backup contactor right there is anything ever happens to the primary.

So, my question is a) does this sound like a good way to handle this? and b) what size wire and fuse should I use between the two contactors? It is carrying the current of my DC/DC (45amp) and heater, which is dual 1500w elements. do I need a fuse there at all? Each item will be individually fused again after the contactor.

[edit] Here is a link to another thread where I asked this same question. Just linking it back here to make it easier to find [/edit]


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

torqued all the cell terminals to 12 ft-lb last night (had to buy a new torque wrench that went down low enough), everything was fine. Did a couple of 0-60 runs today just for baseline purposes, and both runs triggered the low voltage alarm at right about 5000 rpm at 300-350 battery amps (third gear at almost 60mph). The pack voltage was just over 130v at that time. (48 130ah CALB cells, so an average of 2.7vpc at around 2.5c). Both of these (amps and volts) are me reading analog gauges while driving/shifting/running a stopwatch so they are not super accurate.

The car was about 10 miles into a fully charged pack (charger shuts off at ~168v = 3.5vpc) at the time of testing.

fwiw, here's the average of two 0-60 runs (rolling start because of the harsh engagement, and hand timed with a stopwatch so not real accurate, but in the ballpark):

0-40 = 13 seconds (2nd to 3rd gear)
0-60 = 26 seconds (2nd to 3rd to 4th gear)

it slowly built up to 300 amps (battery side), then varied from 300-350ish.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dladd said:


> The pack voltage was just over 130v at that time. (48 130ah CALB cells, so an average of 2.7vpc at around 2.5c). Both of these (amps and volts) are me reading analog gauges while driving/shifting/running a stopwatch so they are not super accurate.


You can't assume that all cells sag the same, so its possible that some cells sag more and trip BMS, while others don't sag as much. In order to find out, you need to see which BMS modules shut off green LEDs under load, that would point to the cell which dips too low under load, indicating a weak cell or poor connection at that cell. I know its difficult to observe LEDs while driving, so you can think of a way to load cells while observing them, such as raising wheels off the ground and carefully applying throttle and brakes at the same time to load the motor, while another person checks LEDs. make sure not to let the motor stall...

Also, you can try driving until BMS is in solid alert state, then see which cell(s) lack green LEDs. This will also tell you if you get expected capacity from the pack. However, weak cell and lowest capacity cell may not necessarily be the same cell, although in my experience its often the case.
NOTE: When driving the pack to empty make sure you are close to the charging point, you don't want to drain them too much, stop as soon as BMS alert doesn't go away once you release throttle.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dimitri said:


> You can't assume that all cells sag the same, so its possible that some cells sag more and trip BMS, while others don't sag as much. In order to find out, you need to see which BMS modules shut off green LEDs under load, that would point to the cell which dips too low under load, indicating a weak cell or poor connection at that cell.


I'll have my daughter ride in the trunk and watch the LED's.  We'll have to do that while mom's at work, I suspect... 

ok, seriously though, thanks for the info and ways to troubleshoot it! I don't think I'll actually do anything about it yet, I'm seeing good consistent voltages at end of charge and for the time being I will just slow down a bit.  As long as I heed the BMS warning and back off, it's unlikely that it could do any cell damage, right? I just wanted a timed baseline before pulling out and replacing the Logisystems.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dladd said:


> I'll have my daughter ride in the trunk and watch the LED's.  We'll have to do that while mom's at work, I suspect...
> 
> ok, seriously though, thanks for the info and ways to troubleshoot it! I don't think I'll actually do anything about it yet, I'm seeing good consistent voltages at end of charge and for the time being I will just slow down a bit.  As long as I heed the BMS warning and back off, it's unlikely that it could do any cell damage, right? I just wanted a timed baseline before pulling out and replacing the Logisystems.


If BMS alerts only come under heaviest load and don't get worse over time, then I suppose you can live with it for a while.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dimitri said:


> If BMS alerts only come under heaviest load and don't get worse over time, then I suppose you can live with it for a while.


even in the short term, what would I do about it? All my connections are good, if there is a weak cell and I leave it in there, does that hurt anything else?

I could do the wheels up throttle/brake load test if I need to, but it's a crazy weekend with halloween parties and the big end of season soccer tournament. I'm heading over to the Goodwill right now to finish up costume shopping, I'm probably done working on the car till mid next week.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dladd said:


> even in the short term, what would I do about it? All my connections are good, if there is a weak cell and I leave it in there, does that hurt anything else?


No, it doesn't, not until it starts to get worse, if ever. If it doesn't effect your use of the car much, then leave it alone.

Chances are your range will be limited by weak cell(s), but as long as you have enough range to cover your daily needs, you are OK.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

look what just showed up on my doorstep!










bummer I won't have a chance to install it for a while...


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

crunching the numbers 350amps with a drop of 28V is 1.6mohms per cell over the whole pack assuming they are all the same which they arent. That is in line with the specs. I dont think anything is wrong (connections) it just sags when you pull 2.8 C out of to that point.

I used 200amps mostly as a max watching the guage that was fine for rush our traffic around here so no warnings. 

The warning really is just alarming in a normal state (high draw) but not an indication of a problem cell. Your not hurting the cell with it being at 2.7V under 350amps draw just because its at 2.7V heat buildup though need to watch that.

If you can keep it to 260 amps or lower you may be increasing the cycle life of the cells over 350.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

fwiw, after ~35 miles it took around 10 hours at 5.8a before going CV, which would be 58ah, right? Seems about right. The time is not real accurate, I don't remember exactly when I plugged in last night. probably +/- one hour or so (so between 50-65ah). that probably put me at about 50% discharged.

A little more than 1/2 of my cells were shunting at the end so it's not perfectly balanced, but the lowest cells were reading 3.4x (the shunting cells were ~3.51) so not far off.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

What is the temperature where you are? Unless your cells are cold, or there is some extra resistance in the wiring you should be able to double your C rate for the same sag.

For example at 5.6C Jack Rickard got 1000 amps at 2.6V average per cell. These were 180ah cells. You cells should be able to beat that. Calb rates the 130ah cells at 7.5 C for 10 seconds. But they don't mention the expected sag at that rate.

Also according to specs the cells should be < 0.8 mohms each. Which would mean your cabling (or cold cells) are contributing to at least half your sag. That doesn't add up.

Something is wrong I think. Perhaps your gauges are out a bit? Do you have access to better logging?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

drgrieve said:


> Something is wrong I think. Perhaps your gauges are out a bit? Do you have access to better logging?


I don't, but I will once I get the new controller installed. At least at the pack level. The Synkro should be able to display pretty much whatever gauge I want, and log them to a laptop as I go. Theres also quite a bit of 2awg cable in the battery loop. The main front to rear cables are 2/0, but the interconnects between the two trunk packs, as well as the cable to and from the breaker are 2awg. I haven't measured the total length, but it is not insignificant (maybe 10 feet or so total?). I don't know what affect this could have on individual cell voltage sag, but I will be eliminating all 2awg cabling when I move some of the cells up front.

I'm going to hold off any judgments until I have the new controller installed and the batteries all where I want them.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so I drove 46 miles yesterday. Several trips throughout the day, mostly 35ish mph, some freeway. I plugged in last night, it was not charged yet this morning when I went to take the kids to school! It was probably close to 12 hours on the charger at 5.8a... guess I need to plug in earlier. Bummer since the charger screws with my radio reception in the house. 

I've also got a 9a charger but it makes the circuit breaker in the sub panel buzz. That doesn't seem good...


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

The buzzing sound as it was explained to me is actually arching on the braker and the box. Its not related to the charger except that its talking the circuit close to its limits and the breaker it loose on the box. If you have a standard squared box its very easy to pop on a new breaker if you are so inclined. I can confirm it may be breaker related because i use the same zivan charger on my car on 2 seperate boxes with 220 breakers. One is new and was put in by our power company when I requested the EV rate. So after 11pm and weekends im at 5 cents a kwh I use that box/breaker the rest of the time i use the other one on a 15 year old breaker box instead of paying peak on the evrate. Same charger and plug and cord different breakerset. If you go over to the breaker and push on it when its humming and it changes or goes away it coule be time to replace the breaker. Id check the breaker out for pitting etc. just to be safe they are supercheap fires usualy arent.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/humming-breaker-81573/



I would charge 7 hours after driving 27 miles at about 40mph. so 14 hours for 54 miles with the slow charger that seems inline with 12ish for 46 miles. But i got to charge at work so i charged after each 27 miles i never went more than 50 at one time. Chargetime wasnt really a big deal.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

it's the original 50's subpanel in the house, and it's a long ways from the breaker to the garage. Then I'm on an extension cord to the car. I'm still measuring 115v at the car, but I'm sure it drops under load. The higher amp charger is at the circuits limits for sure, but the lower power charger seems fine. This is a short term situation as I am going to have a new 220v panel installed in the garage this winter.

I do have a 120v 30a outlet on the side of my house I may try using instead, it will require an adapter from the TT-30 outlet to NEMA 5-15, then a 100ft extension cord (I have a 10awg cord I would use). That will probably work better than what I currently am using, but I would need to somehow run the extension cord through a tightly sealed door to get into the garage.

At the moment we are on a flat rate (E1) with PG&E, it doesn't matter when we charge. Once we either go to an EV plan (E9), or time of use metering (E6), then I'll have to get the charge time down under 7 hours/day. That obviously means 220v and a much higher $ charger!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I did a little charger wiring clean up today. Nothing new functionally, just a little cleaner and easier to use. In the picture you can see the power inlet cord coming through the side from the gas tank door (upper left of the picture), one leg goes through the solid state relay controlled by the MiniBMS, then it goes into a junction box with a dual pole switch leading to an outlet. This is so I can plug the extension cord into the car without the charger being 'live' yet so I don't get arcing at the extension cord. The charger plugs into the outlet. From the charger, I then mounted the Anderson connector to a small project box that has a simple 20a rated switch with one leg of the charger output going through it. This is so I can power on the charger with the output disconnected, then just flip the switch instead of having to plug in the Anderson every time.

So, the process goes like this. 
1) make sure both switches are off.
2) plug in cord to car.
3) flip switch on junction box to power charger.
4) flip switch on small box to connect output to battery pack.

New controller install will hopefully happen early next week.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I had the evening free tonight, and got the Synkromotive controller installed! Pretty straightforward, the hardest part was actually getting to the reverse light wire. I had to pull out the 12v battery, and battery tray to get down to it.

All the existing high voltage cables worked as is, I really didn't have to move much around at all One motor cable is now on the opposite side of the controller, but the cable length still works fine. It's just routed differently. The controller comes with all the wires pre-attached to a connector, it took a while to sort them all out and figure out what went where, and which ones I don't need. The ones I'm not using I just zip tied out of the way. Not sure what I'll do with them long term, I don't really want to cut them off permanently. The ones I do need, I just went one at a time, and took my time connecting them where they need to go. 

Anyway, I don't have the new TPS yet, so I just wired in the existing two wire potbox that's in the car. Not ideal, but it will work.

With the main pack disconnected, I powered up the controller and hooked it up to a laptop with the Synkro software installed on it. It just plugs into a USB port, the program recognized the controller when it opened up and everything looked alright. The interface is sweet, just simple and easy to use. I set the battery parameters then calibrated the pot box. So far so good! I flipped on the main pack breaker, and went for the full test. Car in neutral, one hand turning on the key, and the other holding the cord to trip the breaker. Key on, the controller's fan hummed for a few seconds then went off. The stats on the computer showed pack voltage was on. I gave it a little throttle, and there was a nice little hum as the motor slowly turned over. 

After verifying everything for a little bit, I took it for a test drive. yes, another midnight test run... For the initial test I set the battery amps to 300, and the motor also to 300. first thing I notice is that it is SMOOOOTH!!!!  Finally, I can drive it like an electric car. After a few blocks, I pulled over and bumped the motor amps up to 500 (battery still at 300). Nice! Much quicker off the line. Drove around like this a while, then decided to really go for it and bump it up to 750a. Just on the motor side, battery was still at 300. Very nice! Spun the wheels a bit in second gear. Definately faster now. In the interest of not doing anything stupid, I called it a night and came back home.

Up and into the driveway (up a hill while turning and transitioning over a driveway, it's been my nemesis for driving smoothly) without drama, I could stop and start at will. I'm liking it already! And this is with the old potbox, should get even better with the new TPS.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

well done that Logisystems controller was really the weak link (now you moved it  )


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

dladd said:


> From the charger, I then mounted the Anderson connector to a small project box that has a simple 20a rated switch with one leg of the charger output going through it. This is so I can power on the charger with the output disconnected, then just flip the switch instead of having to plug in the Anderson every time.


Noob question here: isn't this the way certain chargers, like the Manzanita, are damaged? I don't know why you would need to power up the charger without being connected to the pack, and I for some reason thought this was an operational condition to be specifically avoided at all cost.

Not to hijack your thread, but can anyone explain the contradiction and why the charger output should or should not be switched?

Thanks.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> Noob question here: isn't this the way certain chargers, like the Manzanita, are damaged? I don't know why you would need to power up the charger without being connected to the pack, and I for some reason thought this was an operational condition to be specifically avoided at all cost.
> 
> Not to hijack your thread, but can anyone explain the contradiction and why the charger output should or should not be switched?
> 
> Thanks.


I have to pretty much plead ignorance here, hopefully someone else can add some info (Dex?). Something to do with inrush currents I think? This charger is the one I've got (or at least it looks just like that), it's not exactly high end... In the manual (or at least a manual of what appears to be a very similar charger) it says to power up first, then attach to the battery leads.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

There is a componant that wont allow dc out without it being first powered up on the ac side. Power this up with it connected to the pack and nothing happens. Strickly low end $200 inefficient (70%) heatmaker charger which has worked flawlessly for 2.5 years suprisingly its just slow.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

found a problem today. Sometimes when the vacuum pump cycles on it shuts off and restarts the controller. I got honked at when it happened in the middle of an intersection!   It resets in a few seconds.

I'm going to move the vacuum pump to a relay so it's powered directly from the battery instead of from the common switched 12v line running to my component tray. Hopefully that fixes it!

The TPS and speed sensor arrived today too, just about have the throttle installed, just need to run to the hardware store to pick up a bit of hardware. The tricky part is connecting the end of the throttle cable to the arm, but I think I got it worked out.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

That or a diode but your solution should work as well.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Things are looking good! I installed the Evnetics TPS and the Netgain speed sensor, and rewired the vacuum pump to be on a relay. All went well, I went for a 10 mile or so test drive and had no cutouts or faults. I did lots of experimenting with settings, I’ve settled (at least for now) on 400a battery side and 750a motor side. I’ll just rely on my judgement and right foot control to keep from spinning tires or breaking CV joints… Anyway, with only 400a from the battery I’m not able to get 750a for long at all off the line, but it starts high, then holds over 600a for a while (up to about 2000rpm or so). With these settings it’s pretty quick off the line, and certainly fast enough for daily driving with a little fun when desired. I will still hit a low voltage alarm on the MiniBMS if I try to sustain more than 300ish amps for too long, so I set the low voltage ‘soft’ limit to 135 volts in the Synkromotive software. This lets me use up to 400a briefly, and the controller will taper it back for me when needed. It seems to work well, I did some intentionally hard pulls and never heard the alarm after setting this limit. I never felt any kind of cutback, the controller handles it smoothly. I’ll have to go back to my test road soon and re-test the 0-60.

here's a bunch of photo's from the weekend:

the old potbox









the custom cable holder. just a simple piece of sheetmetal bent and drilled to hold the nub on the end of the cable. the holes in the TPS bracket are already the perfect size for this, so the cable is sandwiched between the arm and this little bracket. each side holds the nub, and it's free to rotate. simple and effective.









here is the arm with the cable attached









here's the whole throttle assembly attached. it is truly a piece of beauty! I'm not sure my car is worthy of such a nice part.  it certainly deserves a nicer mounting bracket...









here is the Netgain speed sensor. Very easy to install, the only challenging part was that my motor endshaft had just enough surface rust on it to keep the collar from sliding on. i had to remove the wheel to get better access, then lightly sand the shaft with some 600 grit paper to smooth it up enough to install the collar. although looking at this photo, i can see that I accidentally lined up one of the set screws with the keyway. dang, I'll have to get back in there and rotate it a bit.









here's the controller! the small terminal block right in front of it holds the connections to the speed sensor and the throttle. The bundle of wires on my heater controls box are the extra wires not needed for my installation (reversing contactor controls, various outputs, etc). Not sure what to do with those yet... all the wires plug into the controller with a nice waterproof connector, which seems a little odd since the controller itself is obviously not waterproof. Anyway, the wires were all nice and long, easy to route and connect up.









here's the backside. Yes, I'm using a second EV200 contactor for my high voltage accessories. Yes, it's overkill. 









and the overall shot. this is pretty much finished up. You can see the 12v relay next to the terminal strips, that's for the vacuum pump. The loose wires heading down in the front of the photo are going to the motor blower. I still need to clean up and re-route those wires.









That's it for now. Hopefully it will stay this way for a little while. I do need to put on some of the plastic bits back on up front to get it ready for the rain, but it's basically ready to be my daily driver now.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

just a little range update here... last night I did 27 miles up to a meeting and back, Most of those miles were at 65 mph on the freeway. It was about 40 degrees F out, and I used the heater about 1/2 the time (1500w electric element). It re-charged for ~10 hours at 5.8a last night, about 60ah. 

If I assume I don't want to go below 80% dod (104ah of my 130ah pack) then I have a freeway range of about 46 miles. A bit more if I don't need the heater. I'll round it up to 50 miles and call it good.  

As an aside, for a 15 year old car with over 130k on the chassis, this thing rides smooth! It's nice and quiet on the freeway at 65 in 4th gear, no vibes or anything.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

something weird happened with the vacuum pump this morning, about 1/2 way home it cycled on, but didn't shut off. I turned the ignition off and on a few times, but it would not shut off on it's own so I pulled the fuse.

Probably not the best idea! Power brakes really work, I was surprised how hard I had to press the pedal to stop with the pump off. 

At home I popped the fuse back in and it seemed to cycle on/off fine, I'll see if it happens again. Not sure if it's cold weather related, but it was around 35 degrees F this morning (cold spell! It's not usually this cold around here).

I need to run a bunch of wires from the engine compartment into the passenger area of the car. Mainly I want a manual override for the vacuum pump and motor blower (just so I can be stealthy when I want to), a manual pull cable for a breaker (currently in the trunk, I want to add a fuse in the trunk and move the breaker up front) and I need to run the Synkromotive networking cable for the computer (right now it's going out the top of the hood and through the passenger side window. Stylin!). 

Any tips on the best way to run a bundle of wires through the firewall? I don't see any obvious entrance points that I can get to without removing the dash. Which I'd rather not do, but guess I could if it's the only 'right' way to do it.

david.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I was hoping to have a big exciting update today, I had an appointment with a race shop over at Sears Point Raceway (uh, I mean, Infineon... which is only 15 or so miles from my house) to have my car weighed for individual corner weights. I'm interested to know the front/rear balance right now with all the batteries in the trunk because I'm having second thoughts about moving some up front. It seems to handle fine, no traction issues, and I do like that they are all in the same basic thermal space. Anyway, getting the weights will either tell me I should in fact move some forward, or give me good numbers which I can order new springs with. Either way I learn something.

Unfortunately, I got stood up. 

So, no real update other than I've been driving every day and it's doing just fine! 

Oh, and I did add a shoulder harness in the middle rear seat position so I can now safely haul 4 kids to school. Take that, Chevy Volt! 

and if you look at the upper left of the picture you'll see the little project box that holds my MiniBMS alarm. Easy to hear, though I have not heard it at all since setting up the Synkromotive software to limit the voltage sag.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

second update of the day here... bit of a bummer, but at about mile 45 or so on the day (25 of which were 65mph freeway this morning) I started getting the low voltage alarm with moderate to hard acceleration (at or just under 300 battery amps). The pack voltage never dropped below 133v (set to a soft limit of 135v in the controller) during acceleration, which would be 2.77vpc. I believe the MiniBMS alarms at 2.70v, so at least one cell is a bit lower. I guess that's what I get for talking about how I've had no alarms in the last week in the above post earlier today.  This is the deepest I've been into discharge.

I wish there was a way to tell which cell is the first to alarm! All I can think of is taking it to a dyno so I can see the cells while it low voltages.

On the charger now.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Nice report! Maybe it's a lose cell connection?

How does it do with all 4 kids in the car? Have you gone 65 MPH on the highway with everyone on board? Did you have to reinforce the back springs or struts?

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. Nice report! Maybe it's a lose cell connection?
> 
> How does it do with all 4 kids in the car? Have you gone 65 MPH on the highway with everyone on board? Did you have to reinforce the back springs or struts?
> 
> JR


definitely not a loose connection, checked all that. I'm going to have the whole pack out for some battery box mods soon(ish) and at that point I'll be replacing some of the smaller gauge cables (currently there are a few 2awg cables between packs in the trunk). I'll also clean and re-do all the battery connectors at that time since they all have to come off to remove the batteries. Will see then if it helps or if it's just the way it is.

I have had 4 kids in the car only a few times, always on the way to school which is 5 miles on surface streets (the freeway is jammed up at that time of the morning). It handles/drives fine, but these are 7-9 year olds so they don't weigh much at all. I've had our family of 4 in the car a few times as well, including some freeway mileage (just a few miles down to a restaurant). The four of us probably weigh more than me and 4 kids.

The car is a bit sagged in the back, and about 2" high in the front. It needs new springs for sure. There is a bit of 'wander' at freeway speeds which I attribute to the front high attitude and not even close alignment. I had the struts disconnected from the knuckles when removing the motor/trans, and didn't get an alignment yet (want to wait till I get new springs, and the front tires are old and starting to develop sidewall cracks anyway, so I don't care if I wear them out).


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

The car sat for a week while we were away for Thanksgiving. I went to drive it today and the battery was dead.  Just the 12v battery, the pack was fine. I did discover that I can jump it with a quarter though! Just turned on the key, then jumped the terminals of the accessory contactor with a quarter to kick on the DC/DC, then it was fine.  pretty big sparks though. 

My 9yo daughter thought it was pretty funny that I had to jump start the electric car...

I had flipped the pack breaker off, and pulled the fuse to the MiniBMS, but I guess there was still enough of a 12v load (controller?) to drain the 'starting' battery. Or it may just be a battery that's about done.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I've left mine sit for a week with everything connected, including the minibms, and it started fine. I'm using the flooded lead acid 12V battery that was in the car when I purchased it - looked relatively new. There may be some other problem.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> I've left mine sit for a week with everything connected, including the minibms, and it started fine. I'm using the flooded lead acid 12V battery that was in the car when I purchased it - looked relatively new. There may be some other problem.


it's a decent sized lawn and garden battery (for a lawnmower?) with a 5/09 date sticker, I don't think the battery is the problem... I have been having a little 12v weirdness with the original car wiring, time to track it down!


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

I had exactly same problem when I was using 12V lead acid battery. I have two contactors and one is wired in series with precharge resistor. I simply jumped precharge contactor and there was barely a spark to be seen. Jumping main contactor gave bigger sparks, heheh.

I left my car for a week too. Battery went down to 5V then. Few weeks later "fully" charged battery lasted 4 hours and I replaced the lead battery with "weak" lithium cells I had in hand. I had only 0.5A parasitic load and it was caused mainly by car radio wired always on. It doesn't seem to cut all the power even if the display goes off. There was also very little difference in amp drain even if the display was lit and speakers outputted sound. I could have left radio on all day and it situation wouldn't have become any worse. Hehehe.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

dladd said:


> it's a decent sized lawn and garden battery (for a lawnmower?) with a 5/09 date sticker, I don't think the battery is the problem... I have been having a little 12v weirdness with the original car wiring, time to track it down!


The issue is that small battery never has a chance to fully recharge if it only feeds from DC/DC while the car is on. Since EV is only on for short periods, 12V battery does not replenish its charge. Having larger battery will simply move the problem further in time, but eventually it will catch up with you. 

I had the same issues until I wired my DC/DC to be always on, even when car is off, so 12V battery is always topped off. Never had same issue again.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Do you have the DC/DC on the Iota shut off at the OUTPUT?
(as explained in this blurb)
I.E. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162538&postcount=52

Forgive me if you said something earlier - I have a slow connection o out here in the country we have DIAL-UP !!)

also check out this on the Iota DC/DC

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=170432&postcount=73

My car is done just have not put more pictures on and it is winter and I will not run it in the salt !!!!


P.S. I have a small trickle charger that feeds the AUX battery during charge - it stays connected all the time.
Since my chargers are automatic ( one for each battery - till I can afford Li ...) IT always is ready - when on then charges thru the Iota and pack.

Videos are out of the question on dial-up LOL.....


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Whenever it would sit more than overnight i would put this on it: 
http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-PSC-15A-OB-ProSeries-Automatic-Maintainer/dp/B0016QFFN4
(except mine has clamps)

It would indeed charge the battery full up eventually so the load on the 12 volt system is less than 1.5 amps (keep in mind i had the 2 other leads in the front as well i think you deleted them.)

The older style minibms head end and ac relay take about 40 watts a day the small battery really only held about 90 watts total. If you are going to store it for a while turn off the relay and you will save 60% of that based on my testing but i just used a tender for longer term storage of over a weekend say. If i pulled the fuse (the red one on the 12volt side to the minibms) the load was far less but there still is one. Use your multimeter inline with the 12 volt supply and see what it pulls and disconnect the minibms and relay see whats left not much really.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave, interesting stuff about the Iota, it is always hooked up to the 12v side, but on a relay for the high voltage side. looks like it would be best to relay the 12v side too. And maybe add some input protection to the 160v input? I'll go do some reading on this one!

Dex, not sure which 2 leads you are writing about? anyway, I do have a 2 amp automatic type charger that I will use in the future if I'm out for a few days!

The little 12v weirdness thing I have going on is that about 1/2 the time the car acts like the key is in the ignition when it isn't. Meaning the chime will beep with the drivers door open even without the key in the ignition. I'm guessing there's some switch in the ignition switch itself that is sticking. I don't know if this is causing any current draw or not (other than the chime when the door is open). 

I've poked around the battery and the various leads with a clamp on ammeter, but it's not fine enough at such a low current to tell anything.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I did a little 'fun' work on the car last night, installed a new stereo and put on a few decals. It had an am/fm cassette, but since installing the new controller, the radio had so much interference I couldn't use it while driving. I tried a Droidx to cassette adapter, but the radio ate the adapter... I pulled the radio out and destroyed it to retrieve my adapter (which works fine in my van, so I wanted to keep it). The new stereo came from Crutchfield, basically just a cheap-ish unit that allows bluetooth. I don't so much care about the phone, I never really have a need to talk on the phone while driving, but I wanted to be able to stream Pandora over bluetooth from the Droidx. 

As it turns out, I now have no interference on FM, and only a little bit on AM.  I took great care in getting good chassis grounds (instead of grounding through the factory harness), maybe that helped? Anyway, I'm super happy about having radio reception again. 

in this pic you can see the bluetooth dongle (it's not integrated directly into the unit) on the left side of the photo. Once again I'm super happy with Crutchfield, and their installation kits. Pretty much plug and play, just had to solder the wires from the supplied car adapter to the radio pigtail. The plastic bezel and little pocket above the radio fit great, and the texture even matches the stock panels.










the following pic shows a more overall shot. I've temporarily removed the pack volt and amp gauges (they used to be where the Droid mount is) because I didn't like them there. I'll either re-install them on the A-pillar (that's where they are on my van, I'm used to it...) or go with a 'virtual' display over the Droid. I'm waiting to see how  this display comes out before making any decisions on that. In the meantime, I can either use a laptop on the passenger seat connected to the Synkromotive, or just drive blind (which is what I've been doing for the last few days). There's plenty of safety systems in place to keep the pack safe, I don't really NEED the gauges. But I do like having them.










And here's the new decals.  The 'high voltage' and symbols on the left side are basically there to cover up a decal from the original selling dealer. The 'electric' emblem looks pretty good, I think! Still pretty subtle.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice --- I have seen the "Electric" chrome symbol - think I want one for my Saturn - but where to get ?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> Nice --- I have seen the "Electric" chrome symbol - think I want one for my Saturn - but where to get ?


This is the one I bought. It may be cheaper to go to your local craft store and buy letters, I dunno. After shipping it came to about $2.50/letter. They are just individual letters, I laid them out on a workbench with a straightedge on top and bottom, and just eyeballed the distance between each letter. Then laid a piece of packaging tape over them to hold their position. Flip it over, remove the paper backing, then apply to car with a piece of masking tape for a lower guide. It worked well, pretty easy to do.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Nice --- I have seen the "Electric" chrome symbol - think I want one for my Saturn - but where to get ?


 kta-ev sells a one piece "electric" made of chromed plastic that just sticks on the car - about $6 I think. Mine still look good after two years, and are adhered tightly.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

i submitted the paperwork for a set of the white HOV legal stickers a while ago, got my rejection notice today.  bummer... I know some folks have slipped through (I have the Motive Power listed as E on the registration so I figured I had at least a chance), but a few phone calls have gotten me nowhere on it. Looks like a closed door. Basically just a stern, "if your car is not on the ARB approved list, you will never get a sticker." I don't actually need them, but thought it would be a nice bonus for those occasional times I head South in the morning. oh well.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

dladd said:


> And here's the new decals.  The 'high voltage' and symbols on the left side are basically there to cover up a decal from the original selling dealer. The 'electric' emblem looks pretty good, I think! Still pretty subtle.


Not just any electric, a _twin cam_ electric.

All joking aside, it looks very nice.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

my battery charger has developed a problem. It runs for about an hour or so then shuts off. I'm not sure why, and have not been there when it's happened, but it's not faulting or anything. It is shutting off the output and turning the LED green as if it has reached end of charge even though it's nowhere near charged.

I'm really glad I have the second charger, it makes me realize how dependent on the battery charger we all are! If something goes wrong, we're totally dead in the water. It's not like you can just walk into Radio Shack and buy a replacement...


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## wannabeev (Nov 27, 2011)

Hello all new to the site just finished reading this whole post absolutely amazing. You guys inspire me to build one for my self. If i may what was your total cost in this rebuild?
Sorry for the thread jacking..


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

wannabeev said:


> Hello all new to the site just finished reading this whole post absolutely amazing. You guys inspire me to build one for my self. If i may what was your total cost in this rebuild?
> Sorry for the thread jacking..


the rebuild itself was not that expensive, mostly just time. Except for the new controller. The controller and other required parts for that swap (speed sensor, TPS) were up around $2k. Well, I also bought a new (used, actually) motor but ended up not using it. Does that count?  The car was cheap, but it was a unique situation being already built but busted up a bit. it actually cost more to ship it here than I paid for it... Not including the batteries of course, they were by far the biggest single expense. All in, I think i'm sitting at around $12k right now, including all the little stuff and a few tools I needed to buy. I'm not actually tracking my expenses all that closely, mostly because I don't want to know.  And certainly don't want a paper trail that my wife could stumble upon! There's no need for her to know exactly how much this is all costing... 

In my opinion, an already converted car is a good way to go. The value these days seems to be pennies on the dollar, and probably only going to get worse as more factory electric cars are sold. If you find one that was a good solid conversion but needing new batteries you can get a quick start on an ev, then replace/upgrade as you go. Or find one that someone has started, but lost interest in. They seem to pop up like that in the classifieds from time to time.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dladd said:


> my battery charger has developed a problem. It runs for about an hour or so then shuts off. I'm not sure why, and have not been there when it's happened, but it's not faulting or anything. It is shutting off the output and turning the LED green as if it has reached end of charge even though it's nowhere near charged.


quoting myself here... anyway I now believe that the charger is fine, I think we were getting some brownouts that were just enough to kick the charger off then on. With the output wires connected, this is how it would react in this case. The clocks in the house aren't blinking, but it was really windy last week so it seems possible there were some really brief power drops. Anyway, charger seems to be working fine now.


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Both of them will shut off at any wierdness. Brownouts, packvoltage changes. For instance if you were to close the main contactor the inrush drops the voltage 10 volts for a second thats enough to shut off the charger. Alot of protection for such a cheap cruddy charger but it will open the door to not finishing up a charge if there is a brownout. The charger wont reset until you do it.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Some battery questions here...

I've got access to a Mastech HY1520EX, which is a 0-15v, 0-20a DC power supply.

I want to bring up some of my low cells. Right now, when the charger shuts off at just under 168v (~3.5vpc nominal) I have about 1/2 my cells shunting (MiniBMS that starts shunting around 3.5v) and 1/2 not. My lowest cell at charge end today was 3.37v while the cell adjacent to it was 3.51v. 

I plan to set the charger to 3.5v, hook it to that single cell, and charge it up for a while. Is this correct to bring up a low cell? Is this safe? If it works, I plan to do it one at a time to several of the other lower cells also.

An alternate plan would be to wait until I have the whole pack out, parallel them, and hook them all up to the HY1525EX at 3.6v. This would bring them all to a top balanced state of charge, right?

Is there any issue with just doing one cell at a time while the pack is still connected up in series?


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

no you can bring it up one cell at a time. I discharge test with my cba and charge with my adjustable power supply without removing the cells. Just be very careful not to short across anything. I use foam over the parts of the pack im not working on and rubber gloves/eye protection. If you have cells in series you can add power to them all at once as well 4 at a time for instance. Also, careful with the monitor wire dont short to that as well or you may kill the headend.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dladd said:


> Is there any issue with just doing one cell at a time while the pack is still connected up in series?



no problems.
you can use the mastech, set to maybe 4.0v, to bring an individual cell up.... or a resistor to bring a cell down. then discharge shole pack for a bit with either a run around the block or headlights on for a couple minutes, snd do another charge cycle/record voltages.....


D


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for the answers to the battery charging, I'll let you know how it goes in a few days (maybe more, I'm not finding much time lately to tinker on the car).

a few little updates... It's been running well, the heater has been fine even in the cold 30 degree mornings lately. And that's just with one element switched on. I don't think I'll ever need the second one! Though it is garage kept right now since we've been dipping below freezing overnight lately (and I don't want to charge at below freezing), so the car is staying closer to 45 degrees or so in the garage. Less to have to warm up. 

Anyway, I've been tracking my ah/mile through the controller lately, and I've noticed about a 10% difference between the 30 degree morning run to school, and the 55 degree afternoon pickup. All else is pretty equal but the temp. Not too surprising. Even worse case usage, I've still got an easy 45 mile range which is plenty for my daily routine. Best case in the summer should be closer to 60 or so miles.

yesterday I wired the brake vacuum pump through a toggle switch so I can shut it off in parking lots for that cool 'silent EV effect' and for those times when the pump sticks on... I plan to do the same to the motor blower, but it's not nearly as noisy so I'm not feeling quite as urgent about it.

it's getting driven between 20-40 miles every day right now, charging up for what I calculate to be the equivalent of ~$1.30/gallon when normalized against the Honda Odyssey it replaced. And working just fine as my main kid transporter! And this is paying a pretty high $.24/kWh with PG&E, should be able to pretty easily cut this in at least half with either solar, or a dedicated E9 rate meter, or both. Down the road a bit for those...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so I've been tracking ah used through the controller for the last week or so. It has not been exactly one week, and I didn't remember to check every day (the data is erased every time the car is charged fully, so if I forget to check the controller data while charging, it's gone), so it's not all inclusive. here's a little data:

miles: 164.2
ah used: 337
average ah/mi: 2.05
average Wh/mi: 308 (assuming 150v)

my best trip was 274Wh/mi, and my worst was 331Wh/mi.

Interestingly, the best trip was almost all freeway (27 miles) while the worst was a sightseeing trip around town looking at christmas lights (24 miles, very slow speeds with lots of stops and starts). I expected the opposite!

I've also gotten the pack a little better balanced by individually charging up cells after the charger has shut off. Now all the red LED's are on at the end of a charge cycle. What I noticed here is that no single cell took more than about 20 minutes at ~1a to be brought up. That's not much energy being added! They were pretty close already.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I had to leave the car outside last night, and the temp was a little below 30f overnight. Car was iced over this morning. Battery was about 60% SOC (didn't want to charge it overnight since it was sitting outside below freezing), and it was a tough 10 mile drive to school and back this morning! It was still about 30f, and I could barely pull 200a (battery side) without the pack sagging to 133v (2.77vpc). I currently have my 'soft' low voltage limit set to 135v in the controller (the controller will taper back current at that point to keep voltage up). pretty slow going trying to merge onto the freeway...

on the upside, I did not get a low voltage alarm. In the past, when I hit the low voltage sag limit in the controller I'd also get an alarm saying at least one cell hit 2.7v. Same pack voltage this morning, but no alarm, so I guess my pack balancing helped a little.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Cells warm up a bit when being charged. You can do overnight charge if your cells aren't below 32F in the beginning of the charge. No voltage sagging in the morning.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi all. How about a slow ramp charge that starts with just a few amps to get the battery warned up? You certainly don't want to mass dump energy into a frozen cell but a few amps might heat up the cell just enough to obviate a separate heat source.

It'd be great if you had temp sensors within your pack to read actual cell temperature as it might not be equal to ambient.

JR


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Temperatures here have been in the teens F at night for the last few weeks. I keep my cells at 64 F with battery heater pads in insulated battery boxes while the car is parked in the garage. When I charge at anywhere from 8A to 20A, the cells starting temperature is 64 F and after charging for a few hours at the higher current, or overnight at the lower currents, the cells are at 64 F. I see no temperature rise at all. 180Ah CALB cells


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've been noticing increasing backlash in the driveline lately, so I looked at all the motor mounts yesterday. The lower trans mount is fine, the upper trans mount is there and fine, but has a bit more 'slop' in it than I'd like. It's the stock rubber type mount, I think I may reinforce the rubber with some polyurethane like this to stiffen it up a bit.

More significantly, the extra torsion mount I added to the motor end, while certainly doing it's job and preventing the unit from swinging fore/aft, appears to be adding too much extra shear load to my upper mounts (they are two cylindrical rubber isolation type mounts like this.) I was worried about this when I made the new support, and it appears that the upper mounts are beginning to tear already.

I think the fix I will take will be to add yet another torsion mount to the very bottom of the motor side. With two torsion mounts on the motor end (one above, one below the motor center axis), the old upper mount would then only see a downward load which it will handle just fine. Those cylindrical type mounts just are not made for shear loading.

Alternately, I think if I went back to the original factory upper motor mount that would be fine too, but that would require significant re-work of the motor end support, and my component tray. 

In the meantime, I'm going to lower my motor amps to 300 so I don't fully tear the upper mounts between now and when I get it fixed (it's currently set at 750a, but with only 350 battery amps or so, I rarely see over 600a to the motor and it's usually closer to 400 motor amps on a normal start).


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Don't know if you looked at my motor mounts on the SL2...

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172054&postcount=75

If that helps - the "Dog-bone" takes a lot of shock....


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> Don't know if you looked at my motor mounts on the SL2...
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172054&postcount=75
> 
> If that helps - the "Dog-bone" takes a lot of shock....


I have seen yours, i went in a very similar direction except instead of the stock upper mount I have a pair of cylindrical mounts (they were there already, so I kept the design). Here's a few photos of my setup...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dladd said:


> In the meantime, I'm going to lower my motor amps to 300 so I don't fully tear the upper mounts between now and when I get it fixed (it's currently set at 750a, but with only 350 battery amps or so, I rarely see over 600a to the motor and it's usually closer to 400 motor amps on a normal start).


well, 300a to the motor didn't cut it. I couldn't get up my driveway in 2nd gear! And a little too slow off the line. Anyway, I've spent the last 2 days at 350a motor side and it's OK. Slow, but feels safer on the mounts until January comes and I can tear into it to fix everything (after driving 1000+ miles in the last two months or so I have quite a list of stuff I'd like to fix/modify that will require removing the motor and all the batteries).


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

just back from a week's vacation, despite disconnecting the 12v battery, and despite charging it up a few hours right before leaving, it was down to 5v when I returned... Not a problem with the car, just a weak battery. It should be able to sit disconnected for a week without going dead. Anyway, I've found I can easily jump-start it by touching a quarter across the DC/DC contactor, which sends 13v from the 160v main pack to the aux battery and gets everything up and running.

In other news, I've decided to go with a stock factory upper motor mount to replace the cylindrical rubber mounts that are there now (that are starting to tear). A redesign has already happened in my head, just need to make it happen in the car... I've ordered the parts I need, but it will require fabricating a new end plate to connect the motor to the new mount. And will require pulling the motor/trans out again. And will probably mean moving the controller over a few inches, which may impact other stuff... we'll see what the ripple effect is. That's all ok, there's a few other things I want to do in there too that will be a lot easier with it all out.

Next update will probably be in a few weeks, I'm not going to tear it apart until after the new year, and after I have a chance to get the Big Red Van's transmission looked at (it's slipping a bit). In the meantime, I'm still driving with the motor amps set to 350a to save from doing more damage to the upper mount. Seems fine, if a little slow. Especially with a few people in the car.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Some more cold weather observations from this morning. Car sat outside overnight at about 80% SOC, I measured the battery cases and terminals before leaving the house and they were all more or less at 34 degrees F using a cheap point and shoot IR thermometer. The thermometer in my backyard showed 30F, and the car was very frosty.

Performance was... weak. I've gotten used to it, but there is definitely a major performance drop in cold weather. I'm hitting 2.8vpc at about 200-250a when the batteries are this cold (130ah cells). 

When I got back home (10 mile round trip taking the kids to school) the batteries all measured between 39-41 degrees F. Battery cases and terminals were all about the same. I expected the battery temps to rise a bit more than that during driving.

Just data, not that I have anything to compare it to...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

This has turned out to be a really nice little car. Good work.

A word about your motor mounts:

The stock upper mount takes no weight as designed, it is almost purely for resisting driveline dynamic loads, hence it is called the Torque Axis Mount. Note how far this mount sat relative to the crank centerline, which is the lever the rubber in the mount then has in resisting driveline shock. The lever is over a foot long, and with no other loads on it.

After the mounting design was changed to make this mount carry more of the electric motor weight (and to shorten its length from stock) several things are now happening:

First, the rubber donuts in the fabbed TAM replacement that now do what the radially oriented and larger rubber of the TAM did are failing because they are undersized, have less leverage against driveline torque, and are resisting that torque in shear (perpendicular to their mounting faces,) which as you have correctly identified, should be straightened out. I don't know how much of a challenge getting a stock or uprated TAM in there is, but its a seriously well engineered piece for the job, and probably worth the effort.

Second, the dog bone, to the extent it is also resisting driveline torque, is probably overloaded in that direction (it is being pulled lengthwise, and is in a poor position to control movement given its 2" or so lever arm on that rotation.) A good solution might be just to extend your fabbed upper motor mount (angle iron) toward the front of the car, over the dog bone so that it sits about vertical in its frame mount. I would triangulate it some, too. Then you would have nice foot-long lever against which the dog bone's rubber can resist torque. That's what I would do, anyway, and go to harder, thinner rubber washers on the fabbed upper mount once the torque was better controlled elsewhere.

Third, your lower (fabbed) mount is probably taking much more driveline torque loading than it was designed for. This attachment point is strong, but not designed to flex or be worked much dynamically. I would look that over really carefully for cracking and wear when you're in there, not just on the fabbed motor fixture, but on the floor pan side of the mount, too.

Just my $.02...

TomA


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> This has turned out to be a really nice little car. Good work.


Thanks! It's getting there.



TomA said:


> A word about your motor mounts:
> 
> The stock upper mount takes no weight as designed, it is almost purely for resisting driveline dynamic loads, hence it is called the Torque Axis Mount. Note how far this mount sat relative to the crank centerline, which is the lever the rubber in the mount then has in resisting driveline shock. The lever is over a foot long, and with no other loads on it.


not sure I follow here. Are you talking about the upper mount on the motor side? The big one up top? I thought this was the main vertical support in original gas form, along with the lower transmission mount. The other two mounts (one on top of the transmission, one under the engine) were just two point mounts to prevent rotation. Maybe I'm misreading what you are saying, or which mount you are talking about?



TomA said:


> After the mounting design was changed to make this mount carry more of the electric motor weight (and to shorten its length from stock) several things are now happening:
> 
> First, the rubber donuts in the fabbed TAM replacement that now do what the radially oriented and larger rubber of the TAM did are failing because they are undersized, have less leverage against driveline torque, and are resisting that torque in shear (perpendicular to their mounting faces,) which as you have correctly identified, should be straightened out. I don't know how much of a challenge getting a stock or uprated TAM in there is, but its a seriously well engineered piece for the job, and probably worth the effort.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the ideas, I do now have a stock upper mount to use, and plan to redesign my motor side torque mount. I'd love to get it under the motor so it is further from the motor axis, but space is pretty tight down there. I have a few ideas of ways to go, i definitely want to stiffen the whole thing up, there's too much slop right now.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well I got the Big Red Van back from the shop yesterday and it seems to be running fine. So... with that I'm putting it back into daily use and started pulling batteries out of the Saturn tonight. I'm still setting up and learning how to use my new Powerlab 6 charger, I did a few test runs with it but need to pick up a beefier set of banana plug equipped wires tomorrow. All I had around was 18awg, they got REALLY hot really quickly. 

Anyway, my plan is to cycle every cell and determine their actual ah capacity and internal resistance. I'm not sure how comparable the Powerlab's IR measurements are to CALB's or other methods, but I figure they ought to be comparable to each other at least so I will be able to determine if any cells are out of line with the rest.

Yes, this will take me a few weeks to do since there are 48 cells and the PL6 charges and discharges at 40a. I figure I'll be lucky if I can get 2-3 done per day. But I am also going to pull the motor/trans out and re-do some things in the car so it's not just lost time. 

I'll get a few photo's of the 'battery workstation' I've set up in the guest room tomorrow once I have it up and running.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

All right, a quick run to the hardware store this morning, and I've now got cell #1 up and going. I started at a full charge of 3.5v from my car charger (cell had settled back down to the 3.4x range), FWIW, it took about 1 minute to get up to 3.65v.

The setup is 12v deep cycle battery to Powerlab 6 to CALB cell. I've got a power supply on standby in case it needs it on the charging side, and the laptop is connected to the PL6 via USB and logs all the data. The fan is there to (hopefully) keep everything cool. It's about 60F in that room most of the time.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

first cell is done, 131ah removed going from 3.6v to 2.8v at 39a (.3c), and a internal resistance of 0.6mohm (i have no idea how it gets that number, but it's determined during the charge cycle).


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

10 batteries are done, 38 to go. 

Not stellar results, of the first 10, three came in at over 130ah, the rest were lower. The best cell tested at 138ah and .5mohm ir. The worst is 124ah and 1.2mohm. The rest fall between those two, but mostly on the lower side. This is cycling the cells from 3.60v (charged cv until C/20) down to 2.8a at 39a (.3c). About 2 more ah go back into each cell than came out, but I'm using the discharge value. From looking at the graphs, there's really nothing above or below these points, the curve at the ends are very steep. Though noticeably less steep on the high ir cells.

It's really cool to do these tests, I've seen all the battery charts before, but it's a whole different understanding of the cells to actually create the charts. I'll post a few up later, I'm trying to see if I can figure out how to overlay the different graphs to visually compare different cell discharge curves. The problem is I have the data and software on the laptop that is doing the tests, and I can't play with the charts while testing another cell. Which is pretty much all the time right now...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Very nicely done. I have heard these cells will "form" better after a few cycles so your cell performance could improve a bit.

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. Very nicely done. I have heard these cells will "form" better after a few cycles so your cell performance could improve a bit.
> 
> JR


nah, they have quite a few cycles on them already (bought the car already converted). The good news is I have quite a bit excess capacity for the daily driving I do, so even if I limit my range to 80% of 120ah instead of 130ah, I'm still fine. I'd be fine if my real capacity dropped to 100ah, though I certainly hope that doesn't happen!! Earlier in this thread you can see that based on the real world data and voltage sag I was seeing, there was a calculated 1.6mohm/cell average. Looks like it's not THAT bad... still a lot of cells to test though. The average over the first 10 cells is 0.9mohm (even that is a moving target, as the ir appears to decrease as the cell charges. I'm using the initial number calculated when the cells are very low).

Mostly I'm doing this because I just want to know FOR SURE that I don't have any really really bad cells that should be pulled out. And to eliminate any concern of the pack, so I can focus on optimizing the rest of the systems.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Here are two volts vs. time files for cells, one good cell (139ah, 0.5mohm) and one weak cell (124ah, 1.2mohm). Notice the differences:

1. sharpness of curve at end of discharge/charge cycles. The weak cell is much more gradual.

2. Difference in voltage between the two shelves. The good cell holds a higher voltage on discharge, and charges at a lower voltage on the charge side.

3. Length of time at CV. The good cell gets full in about 20 minutes after hitting 3.60v, the weak cell sits there for over 45 minutes.

How do these performance differences affect things when I've got a single charger charging a string of batteries in series that act so differently?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dladd said:


> Here are two volts vs. time files for cells, one good cell (139ah, 0.5mohm) and one weak cell (124ah, 1.2mohm). Notice the differences:
> 
> 1. sharpness of curve at end of discharge/charge cycles. The weak cell is much more gradual.
> 
> ...


 If you bottom balance, you stop charging when any cell gets to your chosen end voltage. So your good cell would never get fully charged. If you top balance, your good cell will never get fully discharged. I have one cell out of 36 that behaves something like this. Four cells were purchased after the the rest of the pack, and one of them consistently settles to where it is at 3.37V when the rest are at 3.42 to 3.5V. If I charge it individually to match the highest voltage cells, within a few charge cycles it is back down to 3.37 and remains there until I charge it individually again, usually within a few months. After a few months it typically requires about 2 - 2.5 Ah, or 1.1% - 1.4% to match the highest cells again. Currently, I am letting it go longer to see if it keeps slowly going down, as determined by how many Ah I need to add to match the highest cells, since change in V with Ah down around 3.37 is small. It has not presented any problem. I just charge it up a bit whenever I feel like it. Been like that since when I installed it, about 1.5 years ago. Two Ah is only a bit over a mile in range.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> If you bottom balance, you stop charging when any cell gets to your chosen end voltage. So your good cell would never get fully charged. If you top balance, your good cell will never get fully discharged.


I plan to top balance, and keep the MiniBMS installed (shunting style). Actually, I'm not sure if it's really considered balancing or not, I don't plan to parallel them at all. I'm finishing each cycle with a charge up to 3.60v at C/20, and plan to install them like that. My car charger takes them up to about 3.50v, so in my mind they will be well balanced. I'm still just struggling mentally with how it works on a cell level. The overall voltage is xxx.x, but each individual cell voltage is a little different during the charge cycle because each battery has a little different ir and capacity. Significantly different, in my case. But since they are top balanced, they should all meet back together at the same place? 

But wouldn't the higher IR cells have more internal losses, and therefore slowly fall behind the good batteries as they are cycled?

Anyway, the enormity of the task is setting in on me... I just pulled the last of the batteries from the car and they are all on the floor in my house. That's a LOT of batteries! I'm charging battery #15 now. 33 to go. 

While this is going on, I'm going to start on modifying the battery boxes/hold downs next.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dladd said:


> ... The overall voltage is xxx.x, but each individual cell voltage is a little different during the charge cycle because each battery has a little different ir and capacity. Significantly different, in my case. But since they are top balanced, they should all meet back together at the same place?
> 
> But wouldn't the higher IR cells have more internal losses, and therefore slowly fall behind the good batteries as they are cycled?


There is always some difference between cells as you say, especially on the exponential part of the charge curve. No need to worry about differences on the order of 0.05V or so (like 3.48V versus 3.43V) when on this part of the curve as the difference in Ah is a tiny fraction of C. They will all likely read very close in voltage when relaxed after charge - even if they differ in SOC by a couple percent C. All you really care is that they don't differ a great deal in Ah of charge (assuming they have no problems such as abnormally high ir). I just occasionally check my cell voltages near end of charge to ensure they are not too far off, since many times I don't charge to where I get enough shunt balancing to do much.

The higher ir cells will dissipate more energy moving charge in and out, but the same charge will go in and out as in all the other series connected cells. A higher ir cell is not supplying as much useful work on discharge as the other cells due to sag and internal dissipation, resulting in lower cell terminal voltage and energy out per charge, qV (V is cell terminal voltage), but it is supplying the same charge. So pack V is decreased a bit, and there is a bit less energy out, but charge in and out is the same for all cells. You also get somewhat less range per charge since it requires work or energy to move the vehicle, not charge. During charging the charger does more work to move charge into this cell since terminal voltage is a bit higher than the others with lower ir, so charging efficiency decreases. 

I think the worst is that a cell develops very high ir resulting in high voltage across the shunt circuit while discharging. But the minibms has an in line fuse which would blow in this case, so not to worry.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Progress on the racks/hold downs is going very slow... just not much time right now to work on the car. I do have it done conceptually, I just need to buy the steel and make the parts! What are the odds of that all working on the first try? 

here's a few shots of the empty battery rack. I bought some 1/8" HDPE that I am going to line the sides with, mostly just to keep out grime and stuff, there isn't any more space for anything thicker, so no insulation will fit between the rack and the batteries. Other than adding the HDPE, I'm not changing anything with the sunken down trunk rack itself. Just adding hold downs. The row of 12 batteries that is not in the rack, but instead up in the trunk behind the seat, will be getting a new rack. They were held down only by a nylon tie down strap before which I know is fairly common, I'm just not comfortable with it especially since the batteries (~100 pounds worth) are directly behind the rear seats.

Here's a shot from the rear. There's a little rust to clean up and paint. A carryover from it's lead acid days I suspect.










in this next photo you can sort of see where the cables are coming out of the PVC pipe that runs in the old exhaust tunnel. That spaghetti is the BMS head end wiring.










this is looking backwards from the passenger compartment. You can see the sunk down rack is as large as it could be, fills all avaliable space down there. The floor is a thin wood board glued to a piece of sheetmetal in the bottom of the rack. I'm not changing anything there, it's fine.










On the battery charging front, all is going fine. I've decided not to cycle any cell that tests out with an internal resistance of 0.6mohm or lower, since those cells consistently test out at over 135ah. Anything at 0.7 or higher and I'm doing a full cycle test. I've got about 10 more batteries to go, could be done in a day or two depending on how many need to be cycled.

here they are...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Very nice progress and thanks for the pics. How about a pic of the box from under the car? It'd be interesting to see how much is sticks down. I guess if it had leads before you won't have a problem carrying lithium cells.

Good to see you can work in the comfort of your living room. At my house I would immediately find a kid chewing up a cell and another marveling at all the pretty sparks from when they throw a wrench across the terminals.

JR


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

looks great...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Very nice progress and thanks for the pics. How about a pic of the box from under the car? It'd be interesting to see how much is sticks down. I guess if it had leads before you won't have a problem carrying lithium cells.
> 
> Good to see you can work in the comfort of your living room. At my house I would immediately find a kid chewing up a cell and another marveling at all the pretty sparks from when they throw a wrench across the terminals.
> 
> JR


no worries about carrying the batteries, the rack is very well built. Here's a pic from the bottom. The battery rack is not the lowest point, it's about a 1/2 inch higher than the rear suspension center support, and about even with the bottom of the plastic bumper. As to my battery setup in the house, that's the guest room, I can close the door.  It's not the kids I worry about though, it's the cat and dog. Who knows what they will start chewing on.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

The battery testing is complete!!!

So... here's some brief results.

Best cell capacity: 140ah
Worst cell capacity: 120ah
Average cell capacity: 132ah

Best cell IR: 0.5mohm
Worst cell IR: 2.2mohm
Average IR: 0.8mohm

number of cells over 130ah = 34
number of cells between 125 and 130ah = 7
number of cells under 125ah = 7

number of cells 0.7mohm or lower = 30
number of cells between 0.7 and 1.0mohm = 7
number of cells over 1.0mohm = 11

I retested my lowest cell to verify, and it came it within 0.5ah of the first cycle test, so I think the results are all pretty accurate.

so now I need to decide... do I replace any? if so, where do I draw the line between replace, and good enough to keep? Range is not an issue, even limiting myself to 80% of my lowest cell would be fine. The issue is voltage sag. I'd like to know how much current I'd gain at 2.77vpc if I replaced a few of the bad cells (that's where I've had my low voltage limit set in my controller). How about if I replace just the worst cell? How about everything below 130ah?

Of course there's no way to know that without doing it... I might replace a few just to see how much it matters. Maybe four, and I'll use the old ones to replace the pair of T-105's on my travel trailer (which are almost 10 years old, and pretty low on capacity these days) and have the worlds most expensive RV battery. 

On the other hand, I could just leave them as they are, drop the limit in my controller and let the weak cells sag WAY down. Why not, what's gonna happen, I'll damage them some more?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

as I was typing in the results to a spreadsheet, I came across one weird cell I hadn't noticed before. It had a solid capacity of 133ah (which is why I hadn't noticed anything odd, I didn't really investigate it at the time), but the ir was 2.2! This is almost twice as high as the next highest ir, and almost 3x over spec. Why did the cell still have such a high capacity? For the most part, capacity and cell ir have been very consistent. ie: low ir = high capacity, and high ir = low capacity. Except for this one. And one other cell that had a good ir of 0.7, but only 123ah capacity. odd.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

no thoughts on what I should do with regards to replacing some or none of the batteries?

At the moment, I'm contemplating putting them back in the car, minus the worst three, and running at 144v instead of 153. Only problem with this is the charger... would it be OK if I just manually kill the charger when it reaches 3.5vpc? Worst case the MiniBMS will shut it off at 3.6, anything wrong with this line of thinking? It would eliminate any constant voltage stage of charging, so I assume I'd be leaving a bit of charge on the table.

I figure it would at least let me see what the % sag is with the worst batteries out of there to see if it's worth replacing them or not.

anyway, in the meantime I almost have the upper battery rack done. got the base installed today, painted up the rust spots on the old trunk rack, and have all the parts I need to finish up the rest. Need to fab up a few more parts, make a trip to the welder, then paint it all. Should be able to have the batteries back in this weekend if nothing goes wrong...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dladd said:


> At the moment, I'm contemplating putting them back in the car, minus the worst three, and running at 144v instead of 153. Only problem with this is the charger... would it be OK if I just manually kill the charger when it reaches 3.5vpc?


I did that for a few months while I ran with no bms. I hung a timer with alarm around my neck, set for the hours required to replace the Ah used = charging current x charging time. Better would be to plug the charger into a timer on the wall set similarly, but say the time to reach 90% charge to be safe. 'Course you have to have a charge counter like the EV Display, CA, TBS, or other to know the Ah used. I can hardly imagine operating an ev with LiFePO4 cells without one of these. By far the most important measurement to me.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> I did that for a few months while I ran with no bms. I hung a timer with alarm around my neck, set for the hours required to replace the Ah used = charging current x charging time. Better would be to plug the charger into a timer on the wall set similarly, but say the time to reach 90% charge to be safe. 'Course you have to have a charge counter like the EV Display, CA, TBS, or other to know the Ah used. I can hardly imagine operating an ev with LiFePO4 cells without one of these. By far the most important measurement to me.


Sounds good. Up until now I've been using the amp counter in my controller which counts down, then resets to full upon a full charge. No good for partial charges, and of course doesn't see the DC/DC or heater loads.

I did just receive an EV Display which I will be installing when I put the batteries back in, so I should be set now.


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

dladd said:


> no thoughts on what I should do with regards to replacing some or none of the batteries?
> 
> At the moment, I'm contemplating putting them back in the car, minus the worst three, and running at 144v instead of 153.


Well, you could wire two of those three in parallel and then in series with the rest, which should make them better than any single of your other cells. Then you would be at 147V, but of course the "double pack" would get much less DOD. You've got those batteries, so why not use them? 

Regards
Ektus.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Ektus said:


> Well, you could wire two of those three in parallel and then in series with the rest, which should make them better than any single of your other cells...


Very interesting idea, Ektus.

In this case, you would want them "center balanced" with the pack, (every cell, including the double, hitting 50% SOC at the same time) so that they are more or less permanently living around the mid-charge level, which is what the manufacturers are recommending for storage and long life. That's why they ship that way from the factory. Not so simple to do, either.

The double battery will presumably have the lowest voltage levels during and after charging, and the highest during and after discharging.

Not sure that solves the CC/CV voltage level problem with the charger, though. The pack is still 3.x Volts short of the charger transition voltage with the double cell.

TomA


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> Not sure that solves the CC/CV voltage level problem with the charger, though. The pack is still 3.x Volts short of the charger transition voltage with the double cell.
> 
> TomA


no worries, I'm not talking about removing the cells forever, just to see how much of an effect removing the three worst cells has on the pack level voltage drop. If I decide to stay at 45 cells (or anything other than my current 48 cells) I'll replace the charger. Most likely, if I see a decent improvement, I'll just buy a few new cells and bring it back up to 48. if no change, I'll just put the old ones back in and leave it be.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Ektus said:


> Well, you could wire two of those three in parallel and then in series with the rest, which should make them better than any single of your other cells. Then you would be at 147V, but of course the "double pack" would get much less DOD. You've got those batteries, so why not use them?
> 
> Regards
> Ektus.


I've been thinking about this one tonight... I could parallel two sets of my weakest batteries (two sets of two cells in parallel) and then add two new batteries, and be back up to 153v. Would this really work? Would two lower capacity/high ir cells really work together in parallel to function as well as a single good cell?

This could let me eliminate my worst 4 cells for the price of two. And I have space for two extra cells in my battery rack without any modifications, so that part would be easy. Has anyone done this?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Man, this is taking a lot longer than I had hoped... I'm only finding an hour or two here and there, it's tough to get much done without larger chunks of continuous time. It seems like most of my time is spent cleaning up and organizing stuff and trying to remember where I left off last time...

Anyway, work is progressing on the battery racks and new component layout. I'm moving things around, and adding a fuse and evdisplay. It's taking a lot of trial and error to figure out where to mount stuff so it all fits together nicely and can be wired up without problems.

here's a few pics of the weekend's work...

Here are the base angle iron pieces for the upper shelf of batteries. They are just screwed into the car, not real structrually but they don't need to be. The hold down will not attach to these pieces, they just keep the cells level and aligned.










next, here it is with the outermost batteries and the hold down. I'm using two threaded rods on each side to hold it down. This is the position of the outer batteries if I were to add 2 more than I currently have. If I keep it at 48 cells, I'll have a little more room between the cells and the side of the rack.










and here is the new component mounting board. That bar coming off the fuse block is for the evdisplay. It will also mount on this board along with the MiniBMS head end unit. It took several iterations to finally get this right (the cables are existing already, I have to work around where they will reach). Once finalized, I'll replace the plywood with a nicer looking sheet of plastic of some kind. This all has to be finished before I can begin putting the batteries in the lower battery rack.










and here's my cell strapping tools (~$100 total from ebay). I started with 6 to a set, but that's a bit too heavy to move around in tight places. I think I'll go down to 4/pack instead. I'm not using endplates, the strapping is just there to reduce cell to cell movement, I'm not worried about swelling.










that's all for now. looks like I won't be driving it again for a while based on my schedule coming up for the next few weeks.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Finally time for an update! I’m back driving the car again, it took a lot longer to re-do the battery racks than I anticipated… so it goes 

The upper 12 batteries are strapped in sets of 4, then after installing into the rack I ran one big strap around all 12 to keep them from sliding relative to each other (that final strap is not shown in the following photo, I added it later). I don’t think that strap was really needed, but why not? Anyway, I’m happy with how the rack came out, on the rear side I used battery hold down J bolts that I picked up at the local auto parts store, and on the front side I used 12” long allthread through the floor. It’s double nutted with a fender washer under the floor, and you can see the upper rack in the first photo below, I think it came out quite nice! 










The bulk of my time was spent making the component boards and figuring out how to lay everything out, and mounting the stuff to the boards. It took several iterations till I got it right… definitely a 2 steps forward, 1 step back process. In the end it looks good, and keeps everything neat and up out of the way. In the below photo, you can see all the stuff on it. From left to right, the EV Display Bluetooth sender, the MiniBMS head end unit (with the EV Display Cat5 cable coiled below it), the EV Display sender unit, the main pack fuse, and just below the fuse is a terminal strip with 160v+, 160v-, 12v+, 12v-, and Ign on it for the EV Display and BMS. I’ve also wired the charger outputs up to the terminal strip too. On the negative side I’m tapped into the pack between the main fuse and the EV Display sensor. On the positive side, I’m hooked up to the most positive battery terminal. Last but not least, on the far right is the main pack disconnect, a large circuit breaker. Eventually I’ll run a bicycle derailleur cable from the breaker, under the carpet and up to the driver, but haven’t done that yet.










Here is a close up of the EV Display sender unit. I wrapped the copper bar in tape to make it a snug fit (just to eliminate any rattling) and screwed the circuit board to my component board with nylon spacers cut to length. It’s pretty solid.










Here’s sort of a side shot, you can see my standoffs for the copper bar. It’s just a long bolt with three nuts to stand it off far enough. I was pretty meticulous about tightening all the nuts up against each other, but I’m definitely going to keep an eye on this. I don’t love the design I came up with here… 










once the component boards were done and wired up, I began dropping in the lower set of batteries. At first I banded the cells, but quickly realized 2 things. One: this was not going to work! It’s too tight a fit into the trunk rack, and even 4 cells together were too heavy to work with here. Two: It would be pretty easy to restrain the cells mechanically, so there is really no need for the banding anyway! So… with that figured out I just installed the cells one at a time. It’s a good snug fit front to back, with a 1/8” sheet of HDPE lining the rack there is minimal movement allowed. Side to side there was about 2 inches on each side, so I dropped a piece of angle iron down in the bottom of the rack and bolted it down. Here’s an attempt at a photo of this, though it’s a tough spot to get a picture.










With the bottom of the cells locked in, I make a simple side brace out of a small angle and a strip of flat steel. Tough to describe, but the pictures below shows what I did pretty well. 



















Now the cells are locked in side to side, and can only wiggle slightly front to back, I’m pleased with the layout! I again lined the sides of the rack with 1/8” HDPE just to keep grime and water out, and used a firm 2” thick window sealing type foam between the batteries and the plastic to keep it in place.

To restrain the cells vertically, I decided on metal straps over the top of the cells. I don’t love this part of the design, only because there is really no downward force at all on the middle 5 or so cells. It’s basically there to prevent batteries flying around in the case of collision though, and it’s certainly strong enough for that. Here’s a photo of the cells with the straps in place prior to wiring up the batteries.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

...continued from above...

This next part took a few days… just because I can’t seem to find a solid chunk of time to work on the car these days.  Nothing difficult, just a bit tedious, and unforgiving if a mistake is made! I installed all the BMS boards and cell interconnects. For the cells that needed to connect end to end (instead of the normal side to side) I ordered a few braided interconnects from evworks.com and they work great, but again I’m not loving the metal straps holding down the cells. The braided interconnects lay down right on top of them. I covered the bar with a strip of duct tape, then wrapped the interconnects with 2 layers of electrical tape to prevent shorting anything out. At the end of the day, this is what it all looks like.










Here’s a shot from a bit further back that shows the whole trunk.










I still have a ton to do that I didn’t get to, like redesigning the motor mounts and moving some stuff around up under the hood. I also need to make a cover for the batteries so I can actually use the trunk.… oh, I also didn’t paint the metal parts yet, because it’s been rainy and really windy for the last few weeks, and I have to paint outside. This summer I’ll just have to pull them out for paint I guess. Everything that needs painting can be removed without removing the batteries, so it’s not that bad.

I also didn’t do anything to address the weak cells, just wired them all back in. I did put all the weak ones up in the upper battery rack where it’s easier to get to them later. I do plan on doing some experimenting with eliminating the worst cells to see how that affects relative voltage sag under load, but that stuff is all going to have to wait a while, I’m just happy to have it up and running again! Especially as gas is edging up towards $5/gallon around here.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so I headed out to breakfast this morning with the family, and I guess was a bit distracted. I pulled out, and headed on down the road. About a mile later I was crossing an intersection and a guy in a car on the cross street started honking and pointing at my car! It was a bit too enthusiastic to be someone who was just excited to see an electric car, so I figured something was wrong... 

Looking in the mirror, I saw I had a 25 foot long orange tail! Oh sh!t, I forgot to unplug. 

i pulled over and really I got quite lucky. No damage done, it stayed plugged in to the car, and pulled cleanly out from the house side with no damage to either side. Even dragging it for a mile didn't seem to do any damage, just some scuffing on the connector... REALLY lucky it didn't swing into something, or get stuck on a tree or car tire!

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the first one to have done this. I think I would like to implement some kind of switch on my fuel filler door that disables the controller if it's open so I don't do it again.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

I've done that too. But I was rolling down from my parking spot in neutral and heard what happened. No damage and lesson learned.

You could also wire AC-relay in series with your charger. So when car is plugged to the wall relay opens and disables controller for example. Relay can be placed inside a box to get protection from water and dust.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

It happens...











I agree with the relay-cut-when-charging suggestion 

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

another observation here... It's been pretty warm lately (in the 50's, at least) but rainy, so I need the defroster. Yesterday as an example I drove 23 miles in the afternoon picking up from school, going to swimming, play rehearsal and other stuff. During that time, I had to run the defroster the whole time since we were all wet and fogging up the inside of the windows! With the heater, lights and wipers on, I pulled 68ah from the batteries according to the EVDisplay vs. the 48ah that my controller reported (which doesn't see the DC/DC or heater). That's a big difference! more than I expected.

Unfortunately, as it stands right now my heater comes on with the fan, so I'm pulling ~18a from the traction pack anytime I run the defroster. I can kill the power by pulling the fuse, but that's a bit of a hassle since I still need the heater during the morning run to school.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

and in follow up to the above post, this morning it was 50 degrees and cloudy, no wipers, heater or lights needed. I drove 9.9 miles, the Synkromotive controller reported a 19ah usage, the EVDisplay reported 20. This is much more in line with what I was expecting! 

I guess the heater just really does use that much energy! Like cutting my range by 30% if on the whole time.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm slowly but surely making some changes up front, one of which is relocating my vacuum pump and air tank, as they are somewhat in the way of my high voltage wiring, and I'd like to relocate the pump to an isolated mount.

As an experiment before going through the work of remounting the tank (a large PVC chamber) to a different location, I bypassed it and ran the vacuum line directly from the pump to the master cylinder (which has it's own vacuum chamber built in, though a small one).

It works just fine! The only difference is that instead of cycling on every 2-3 braking events the pump now cycles on every 1-2. In an unexpected twist, it's quieter now too. I can only assume some of the noise was reverberations through the tank which was rigidly mounted to the firewall.

Anyway, I'm going to eliminate the tank. One less thing under the hood. 

here's the pump plumbed directly to the master cylinder










and here's the big ole vacuum chamber I no longer need!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

minor update here, just some small stuff.

I've got the EVDisplay up and running, it's sweet! I am using the bluetooth to android version sold by emotorwerks.com, here's a link to the thread about it. I posted some pictures of the current sensor and the bluetooth sender box in an earlier post, this is what it looks like on my DroidX on the dash of the car.










and a closeup of the display.










it is very customizable. I have it set up with a big analog battery current gauge, a small analog 'fuel' gauge, and then have digital readouts for voltage, Ah remaining, Wh/mi, and battery current (redundant, but the digital gauge lets me see small changes in charging voltage). Obviously on a larger tablet you could display more info, but this is perfect for what I want!

I have it configured so that a full charge shows 100 Ah avaliable (about all I want to use from my batteries) so zero Ah left is actually ~80% depth of discharge. Nice and easy to use, since the Ah remaining shown on the screen is a direct percentage (ie: in that photo it shows I have 77.5Ah remaining, which means I have 77.5% of my range left before hitting 80% dod.

It's also super cool that the Bluetooth range is enough that I can have my phone in the house plugged into the wall and it still gets the signal so I can monitor the state of charge when charging from the kitchen! Just handy for those times when I want to do a partial charge during the day.

In that first picture above, you can see a box with three toggle switches in it just above the radio (the box is currently wedged in place with a paper towel, I'll pick up some foam tape to mount it soon...). Only one of those is hooked up right now, it's my 'stealth mode' switch, it kills the relay that runs the motor fan and my brake vacuum pump so I can move about silently in parking lots. 

The vacuum pump has also been moved, it now lives down on the old front battery rack with the motor blower, mounted onto a cutting board (for now) that is mounted to the rack with radiator mounts (rubber isolation mounts with bolts on each side) to reduce vibrations transmitted to the car.

here it is looking forward, you can see the little 'muffler' on the exhaust side of the vacuum pump, I don't really think it does much muffling though... and the big K&N filter on the motor blower.










this photo shows the routing of the hose from the pump to the master cylinder. And also just a general underhood view of how it looks these days.










The final thing I've done is to get my tachometer working! However, it's not accurate... My speed sensor on the motor sends a 4 pulse per revolution signal to my controller, but the factory tach requires a 6 pulse signal, so it reads low. No big deal, I just know that my redline of 5000 rpm is 3500 on the tach. I may make a custom overlay at some point, but that would require a lot more disassembly to get to the actual gauge face.

It turned out to be real easy to do, I tapped into the sensor signal to the controller, and hooked it up to the old ammeter wire (which I'm no longer using) which already runs through the firewall up to the back of the dashboard. All I had to do was remove the upper dash pad, two bolts and a few clips (which broke, of course...). Found the wire leading to the tach, snipped it, and connected it to the signal. Done! it's the white wire zip tied to the harness below. While I was in there, I cut the wire going to the 'service engine soon' light, which has always been on. Since there's no more engine to service, I figure I don't need that any more. 










here's a shot of the tach working, and the comparison with the actual motor speed on my laptop reading direct from the controller.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I just realized your interior is the same as mine even though I've got the newer body style. I guess there was an overlap in the 95-96 years.

Looking good though.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

david85 said:


> I just realized your interior is the same as mine even though I've got the newer body style. I guess there was an overlap in the 95-96 years.
> 
> Looking good though.


yeah, 95 appears to be a transitional year. It's got the old body style (92-95), but the new interior (95-99?). 

I was very glad to see that the interior of mine was like yours, in terms of all the dash stuff and instrument wiring, it was you and Dave Koller's posts that made it so easy for me to figure out how to hook up the tach!

if only there was an easy way to convert from 4ppt to 6ppt on the input signal...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

There are several ways but by far the easiest is to slip a spacer and metal ends and a separate pickup - it can be as simple as a circle with 6 threaded bolt ends sticking out.... it should not interfere with your controller pickup...

I assume the pickup with 4 is not that thick... else you need a simple circuit to pulse 3 times for each one of the 4 (equals 12) then divide by 2 with a flip-flop to make 6 with a better duty-cycle.... 

All this is double talk for: Yep - it can be done ..


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> There are several ways but by far the easiest is to slip a spacer and metal ends and a separate pickup - it can be as simple as a circle with 6 threaded bolt ends sticking out.... it should not interfere with your controller pickup...
> 
> I assume the pickup with 4 is not that thick... else you need a simple circuit to pulse 3 times for each one of the 4 (equals 12) then divide by 2 with a flip-flop to make 6 with a better duty-cycle....
> 
> All this is double talk for: Yep - it can be done ..


ya, I asked this question in another forum here, and the answers are so far over my head... My knowledge of electronics is pretty much limited to plugging in 'little black boxes' that do what I want them to do. 

I could certainly add a second pickup and sensor, but after a few days of driving as it is, I really don't think I'll do it. A little piece of red tape at 3500 will work just fine. 

honestly, the power falls off well before redline, I'm not at any real risk of over-revving it anyway. The only time it's an issue at all is in town, going down steep hills in 2nd gear.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

my Anti Aero mod...










gotta have a rack for the bikes, and with 4 girls in the car, I needed a little more room for the softball gear! that's gonna hurt the Wh/mi...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

NICE !!!

What did you wax the Saturn with looks like new !


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> NICE !!!
> 
> What did you wax the Saturn with looks like new !


well... i drove it in the rain last week.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> well... i drove it in the rain last week.


That cracked one me up!

I washed my car ONCE since I got it. It was a special occasion so I made an exception.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've been tracking my ah usage lately, some more observations...

speed kills! Way more so than the roof rack.

I drive a consistent route every Monday night, it's a 28 mile round trip, most of it is on the freeway. With no rack, at ~65mph, I've been averaging around 310 Wh/mi for the past few weeks. This week with the rack, but at 55mph (it was difficult, but I did it  ) I got 280 Wh/mi. Next week I'll try it at 65 with the rack for a more direct comparison.

I've not noticed any significant difference in my in-town driving (low speed city stuff, some hills, a little freeway). It averages around 320 Wh/mi before and after the rack. 

Sunday I drove to the ferry terminal, 26 mile round trip, and got 345 Wh/mi. This was with the rack, at 65 mph, but it is not the same route as I take on Monday's (it's South instead of North, so a different stretch of freeway) so it's not a direct comparison. 

Yesterday I drove almost the same route as Sunday, but there was some traffic on the way down (so my freeway speed on the way down was 30-40mph) and I kept it at 55mph on the way home. BUT I had a bicycle on the roof, which I thought would really hurt the efficiency. I got 290 Wh/mi. 

my average over the past 350 miles (a few weeks, but I don't track every single trip) is 311 Wh/mi, which gives me a range of 47.3 miles (I'm only allowing 100ah to be used from my nominal 130ah battery cells). This is with very minimal heater usage, and temps in the 50-60 degrees F for the most part. My average daily drive has been around 30 miles, my longest day was 54 miles, but I charged for a few hours during the day since I knew I would be pushing my range limit later on.

This is pretty much normal driving, btw. I don't do anything to intentionally hypermile or anything. With a little effort it's pretty easy to get sub 300Wh/mi, even in town, but generally I don't do it.

oh, and I've been using 147v in my calculations from Ah/mi (which I read directly off the EV Display and the odometer) to Wh/mi. I find this matches up within a percent or two of the Wh/mi calculations done by the EV Display (which are real time calculations and are not not saved, so I can't use the EV Display Wh/mi calculations in my spreadsheet). This is with 48 CALB cells, nominally 153v.

I'm loving driving the car btw, it's been a while since I had a 'fun' car. Meaning something that actually handles pretty well. I've been in a minivan for the past 10 years... 

here it is at the trailhead yesterday being all eco-friendly.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I swung by the local gravel yard this morning and weighed the car. I had been trying to have it individually corner weighed at a local race shop, but was having trouble getting coordinated with the guy. I tried this on a whim this morning and it was perfect! Gravel yard was pretty empty, the person working there said sure! Drive on up we'll get you weighed. awesome.

Anyway, I rolled on the front wheels, then the whole car, then the rear wheels. Here's the results:

F - 1280lb
R - 1430lb
Total - 2760

The numbers add up pretty close (2710 vs. 2760). There was a slight incline on both sides of the ramp, so I think if I take the missing 50 pounds and split it between the axles it will be close enough. I'm going to use this info to order new springs.

btw, according to the internets, the 1995 saturn has a ~2400 pound curb weight. So I'm 360lb higher than stock. And MUCH more rear heavy. Stock it's 60/40 F/R, I'm 47/53 F/R.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

it's been real warm lately (in the 80's and above the last few days) and I've bumped up the current to 500a on the battery side. I'm now at 500a battery, and 500a motor. I'm allowing the batteries to sag down to 125v under load, but with the warm weather i'm not seeing less than 130v at 500a. going from 300a to 500a on the battery side with no change to motor current has not increased my initial acceleration, but it now pulls another 1000 rpm's or so before fading out.

Due to the still questionable motor mount that is beginning to tear, I'm very careful off the line (no drag racing!), but my freeway merge speed is much better now.

And fwiw, this is an occasional thing. Generally I don't need over 200a in normal driving. Maybe once or twice a drive I'll hammer it for one hard pull.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If I remember right, I have about 1800 on the front and 1200 on the rear. Looks like your car may have lost some weight on the nose after the conversion.

How is the handling with the tail heavy setup?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

david85 said:


> If I remember right, I have about 1800 on the front and 1200 on the rear. Looks like your car may have lost some weight on the nose after the conversion.
> 
> How is the handling with the tail heavy setup?


based on my internet research showing a stock weight of 2400lb, and a 60/40 weight distribution, I've lost 135 pounds up front, and added 495 to the rear. Sounds like a bad idea, but it seems fine. 

In normal driving, you would never know anything was different. I don't live in a snowy area, but I have done a lot of rain driving in the last few weeks and it's been fine. No slipping, no spinning, nothing wonky.

When pushed, it feels top heavy. Lots of body roll, it feels like it will roll the tires off the rims (but of course doesn't). In particular, the rear springs feel too soft. I have yet to get either end loose, it actually feels pretty balanced when cornering. 

I do have a little weave (or wander, or wallow) at freeway speeds, but it's nothing bad. My E350 van is much worse, for comparisons sake...  I'm currently sitting about 1" high in front, and around 2" low in the rear. I suspect this wallow will go away with the proper springs.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds like you don't have much to worry about then. You might want to check the wheel alignment though. My toe in was way off after all was said and done.....although in fairness I never checked it before tearing the car apart. It didn't take many miles to wear the corners pretty badly before I realized what was wrong.

Someday I'd like to get springs and the proper size tires though. Right now my springs are too short and tires too tall


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

A routine underhood inspection yesterday showed a torn up upper transmission mount. Basically the rubber inside one end of the strut was no longer connected to the strut allowing the whole motor/trans assembly to rotate too much. Combined with the torn upper mounts on the other side and I was just asking for trouble... so, I temporarily solid mounted one end of the motor. 

I know this is a no-no since I now have one side rigid, while the other (lower trans mount) is the stock rubber mount, but it's better than what I had. 

I also put polyurethane inserts in to the stock strut arms (one on each end of the motor/trans assembly) which should significantly stiffen the mount (reducing rotation and driveline backlash) and be a lot stronger than the stuck rubber parts were. 

here's the stock rubber insert I removed. you can see it's all torn up. 










this is one of the old motor mounts,  I replaced them both with a stack of fender washers and a bolt for now.  This will have to do until I can get a little more time to redesign the motor end to use the stock upper motor mount.










here's a photo of the upper strut bar on the transmission with the new polyurethane inserts,










initial results with the solid mount are good. Much less driveline backlash, less clunking of the CV joints, and a little more motor noise. I don't feel any added vibrations though. I do realize that this may add forces down at the lower trans mount, I'll keep an eye on it... It's tempting to just solid mount the whole thing, replacing the lower stock mount with a simple metal bracket.

What are the downsides of solid mounting the motor?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Went right out and checked mine LOL... (Whew - mine is OK)

It looks like an abundance of oil may have ate away at the rubber of your mount and then allowed it to tear with torque... or not.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> Went right out and checked mine LOL... (Whew - mine is OK)
> 
> It looks like an abundance of oil may have ate away at the rubber of your mount and then allowed it to tear with torque... or not.


That strut was new when I installed it in October, no oil to be found! I think the flexi-flyer upper mounts on the other side just jacked the load up on this strut. Until I fix the real source of the problem (my upper motor mount on the motor side), I think I'll just be fixing one thing after another...

going to a stock upper motor mount means moving the controller, heater controls box, and a bunch of other wiring in addition to the actual mechanical design/installation of the mount to the motor... I'll get to it. 

in the meantime I'm just living on the edge...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

dladd said:


> Until I fix the real source of the problem (my upper motor mount on the motor side), I think I'll just be fixing one thing after another...


Yup. The trans and motor mounts aren't designed to be taking ANY of the torque axis loads. They have almost no leverage on it, being in a plane that is maybe an inch or two from the centerline of the twisting of the crank (now motor) shaft. The Torque Axis Mount that was on top of the ICE has over a foot of leverage on the shaft centerline. That's why its important to retain it, if not the stock mount itself, then at least be sure what you fabricate has the same distance from the shaft to the rubber or urethane mount you use to damp the shock.

Solid mounts will likely lead to cracking from road shock, that is, when you are accelerating or braking over uneven pavement, like over a rail road crossing or pothole, and the tire patch momentarily loses and then fully catches traction again. Those events produce really high amplitude shocks, and cracking the case of your transmission or the frame rail would be a disaster. Fortunately, you can see a lot of that coming and take it easy to avoid bucking the powertrain in its mounts with careful driving...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> Yup. The trans and motor mounts aren't designed to be taking ANY of the torque axis loads. They have almost no leverage on it, being in a plane that is maybe an inch or two from the centerline of the twisting of the crank (now motor) shaft. The Torque Axis Mount that was on top of the ICE has over a foot of leverage on the shaft centerline. That's why its important to retain it, if not the stock mount itself, then at least be sure what you fabricate has the same distance from the shaft to the rubber or urethane mount you use to damp the shock.


below is a photo of my existing upper mount as it was with the rubber mounts. It is much lower (closer to the motor center axis) that the stock mount, but still 4-5 inches above the top of the motor. The rubber isolation mounts (for lack of a better term) used as motor mounts have now failed twice, once catastrophically with the previous owner (after about 2 years of service, I believe), and now for me (after about 2 months of service). In the photo you can see where the mounts are, between the pieces of angle iron between the motor and the frame. Those have been replaced by a stack of washers and a bolt for now, so it's rigid. The 'torque strut' that I've added here clearly won't do anything to resist motor torque, it simply resists the 'swinging' of the motor from the top mount. I think adding this is what very quickly lead to the tearing of the upper mounts as they now see a large shear load they didn't see before...












> Solid mounts will likely lead to cracking from road shock, that is, when you are accelerating or braking over uneven pavement, like over a rail road crossing or pothole, and the tire patch momentarily loses and then fully catches traction again. Those events produce really high amplitude shocks, and cracking the case of your transmission or the frame rail would be a disaster. Fortunately, you can see a lot of that coming and take it easy to avoid bucking the powertrain in its mounts with careful driving...


agreed. I will fix this sooner rather than later. Even if it means making the Big Red Van the daily driver again for a while.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Yeah, it needs addressing.

Most people don't realize that electric motors, while producing generally less horsepower (work) than the ICEs they replace, are capable of much more torque. This really plays out on the road in two circumstances that are very hard on the motor/trans mounts, and the rest of the drivetrain:

First, at zero or very low RPM, particularly if you have a high rate of power application, like 5000A/second. ICEs just can't match that.

Second, I think that road shock tends to bog a gas or even diesel engine in the moment it feeds into the powerplant, reducing the already lower torque output of these engines. I really wish there was some data available for comparison, but there just isn't. While there is a lot more reciprocating mass against which the road shock hammers in an ICE, I think the stall and torque characteristics of an electric motor make road shock more damaging, especially in a low speed skittery wheel hop situation. 

Don't know, pure speculation, except that the rather more common kinds of powertrain mount wear and failures we seem to see anecdotally in the EV community, compared to stock configurations, leads me to think there's a lot more torque involved with electric. Sure, there are other causal factors like redesigned mounts, lighter materials and backyard engineering, but I still strongly suspect there is more going on...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Ran across some thing on this where they poured a hard rubber into each "spoke" opening to make it solid and handle more torque but still have flex....

Thought it was somewhere here on DIY ... 

edit:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89787&postcount=1

not the full thread but maybe you can find more....
http://www.superhonda.com/forum/f94/diy-homemade-polyurethane-engine-mounts-204274/


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> not the full thread but maybe you can find more....
> http://www.superhonda.com/forum/f94/diy-homemade-polyurethane-engine-mounts-204274/


funny, I actually bookmarked that some time ago... I decided to just buy the urethane inserts for the strut bars instead. I do plan on reinforcing the TAM with something, I'm thinking of using 3m Window Weld, it's urethane in a calking gun tube made for installing windows but I've read of folks using it to reinforce motor mounts. Easier than the 2 part mix together stuff.

I'll let you know if it works.  fwiw, I parked the car today, I'm not going to drive it again till I get the motor mount fixed correctly.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

I wouldn't use caulking. It might take forever to dry, and you can really go much firmer than that.

Most of the give in the drivetrain mounts, especially the TAM, is for Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) that your motor doesn't have. It doesn't stumble or run roughly cold, or have significant vibration resonances throughout the RPM range like a four cylinder ICE.

If it were me, I'd start with a piece of Trex plastic lumber I have laying around (planed a little thicker than the rubber, and cut out the filler pieces on the band saw or with a jig saw if I didn't have a band saw. I'd then cut the lower blocks into a few slivers to fit into the areas inside the flange of the lower plate that partially covers over those openings one piece at a time, adding more slivers until it was all very tightly fitted. Then I'd use the urethane (or more likely the 3M epoxy I have for rubber and flexible plastics) to glue the blocks together and into the rubber mount.

Seems easier and more durable than pouring 2-part urethane, or waiting for the tube stuff to dry, but that's just my $.02...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well, four trips to the hardware store and one trip to a welder later, and I got the new motor mount installed. It looks a bit kludged, but that's because it is. 

The plate bolted to the motor has a 'foot' that has a pair of angle iron pieces welded together at about a 3 degree angle, which accounts for the motor rotation angle I happen to need. I made that piece long ago when I first re-did the mount, and I kept it this time since it makes the new bracket easier (it just has to be parallel now, no angle involved). Then I intentionally made the my new mount a little short and used washers to make up the difference. I did this since I was unsure exactly how much the motor would sag the mount, and I don't have 100% faith in my welder to hold to my dimensions. He's more of a clamp and eyeball it kind of guy.  It's easier to add/subtract a few washers than it is to make a new shorter mount if it comes out too long... it's a bit heftier than I need, 1/4" plate welded between 1/8" angle, but it's what I could scrounge up.

so... what you see in this photo is a plate on the end of the motor bolted to a mount that accounts for the angle, then that's bolted to my new mount that connects that to the stock motor mount.










here it is from the topside,










the controller needs to move about 2" over from where it was, which is going to mean moving some other stuff too. that's next...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Good work. Stacks of washers in vibration environments always give me the willies, though. I'd be using Nylok nuts, with Nordlock split washers under the bolt heads, on those intermediate bracket bolts.

In my experience (over 150k miles and three SLs) with these Saturns the torque axis mounts tend to sag and squish down a bit over time. Next year, if you don't stiffen the mount, you might be able to pull those washers out from between your brackets and cinch the whole thing together without them, taking up the wear and slop in the TAM at the same time. 

Nice...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

got it all wired back up and on the road. Smooooth as ever!  It was pretty easy to move the controller over, I had to move the heater controls box about an inch, and the terminal strip for the throttle and speed sensor, but all but one wire had enough length already. Just had to modify and re-route one wire, and it's all back together. While I was in there, I also removed the shunt I'm no longer using (since my gauges are all coming from the EV Display now). One less cable, and one less high voltage connection. 

I admit I'm not that pleased with my washer idea, but it's there now... It would be pretty easy now to re-make the whole mount out of one piece, I may do that down the road a bit.

I like the idea that now all four of my motor mounts are the stock pieces from the car (one not in the stock location though). With the urethane strut inserts it is VERY solid. I do plan to reinforce the TAM (torque axis mount, or upper motor mount) by filling in the gaps with urethane, but didn't at this time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just replace the stacks of washers with a solid metal shim, the thickness of the stacked washers. That's just a matter of cutting a piece of bar stock to length and drilling a couple holes in it. Combined with the locking mechanisms Tom suggested, you'll have adequate surface contact area, and still maintain the ability to make adjustments later, as the parts wear and settle. I wouldn't be afraid of a properly designed and implemented shim. They've been used all over production cars, for many years. Many older cars use small rectangular shims to set camber, round (basically washers) to set caster, body shims, some ICE starters use flat shims to adjust the electric starter motor, etc.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Just replace the stacks of washers with a solid metal shim, the thickness of the stacked washers. That's just a matter of cutting a piece of bar stock to length and drilling a couple holes in it.


I'm with Todd go back and look at my mount for the dog-bone and you will see a solid shim..

Edit: 

Click below for picture....

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6104&d=1269283281


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Since the mounts are nice and solid now, I bumped my motor current up to 750a this morning just for fun (was 500a both sides, set it to 500a battery, 750a motor).  Nice and quick, unfortunately romping on it in third from a stop lights up the clutch. 

Seemed fine in 2nd gear, and in all normal driving, definitely much quicker! I reset it to 650a which feels good and is probably a little kinder to the CV joints and such. surprising to me what a difference a few hundred amps to the motor makes.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well, a few days on the new motor mount later, and I admit I'm disappointed. 

I still have more driveline backlash than I should have, I often get a major oscillation of the drivetrain going when starting out, particularly if I slightly roll a stop sign without coming to a full stop. Also when transitioning from off throttle to on throttle while driving. Standing starts are fine and smooth, acceleration is smooth, just a rough off to on throttle situation caused (i think) by excessive play somewhere in my driveline. 

I had hoped the motor mounts would cure this. Definitely helped, but still worse than I think it should be. I've resorted to making full and compete stops, much to the annoyance of those behind me.  I fear I'll get rear ended here soon if I keep stopping at all the stop signs. 

I know this transmission took a lot of abuse from the logisystems controller that used to be in the car, I fear it may be very worn. There's also some occasional clunking/groaning sounds from the wheels, could be some play in the suspension bushings adding to the problem. Looks like I may need to rebuild the whole front end! CV's look feel and sound alright.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Sounds like the clutch to me.

If your adapter isn't holding the pressure plate perfectly flat, that will make it worse, and eat up the clutch faster, too. Once you have it apart, you can put a dial indicator on it and see if it wobbles.

Just a thought...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> Sounds like the clutch to me.
> 
> If your adapter isn't holding the pressure plate perfectly flat, that will make it worse, and eat up the clutch faster, too. Once you have it apart, you can put a dial indicator on it and see if it wobbles.
> 
> Just a thought...


do you mean like the clutch splines wearing out where it mates with the transmission? 

I did have the trans off way back when I started, the flywheel is flat on the motor, no detectable wobble when spun up on 12v (~1000 rpm?). I did not replace the clutch plate at that time, but it looked visually fine. Looked new, really.

Anyway, as I'm now slipping the clutch at full power (700+ amps to the motor) I'll probably dig in there to put in a stronger clutch one of these months. maybe that ought to bump up my list a little? Wouldn't be the worst thing to do a big tear down in this summer, since the car doesn't have air conditioning anyway... would give me an excuse to drive the ICE which does. 

in the meantime I think I'm going to leave it at 600a motor side, which so far is safe on the clutch slipping, and lessens the oscillation issue. And is still quite quick, I've just been leaving it in 3rd gear, plenty of off the line power for normal driving. And second is there if I need it, or am starting out on a big hill.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

No, I was thinking the clutch/flywheel interface is bad, and the clutch worn. I suppose the transmission input shaft/clutch disc splines could be worn, but I wasn't thinking that.

Originally, you commented that there was some runout in the flywheel, which was hard for you to measure with calipers, but I didn't know if that was in the face, or axially on the rim. If the flywheel face has radial runout, it will wear out the clutch faster, and could be contributing to the oscillation. It could also be wearing the clutch splines into the trans input shaft, or wearing other parts of the clutch, like at the throwout bearing. Don't have any ideas about all that, but I would inspect and measure everything carefully with a proper set up and dial indicator.

At 750A and 150+V (although you're probably sagging to under 120 at that current) on a 9" motor, I'd be interested to see how much torque you're really putting into that clutch. Probably way more than stock, especially down low in the RPM range, as you have apparently observed. That output level would tend to aggravate any setup, alignment or wear issues.

Good luck, it doesn't seem like much fun...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

TomA said:


> No, I was thinking the clutch/flywheel interface is bad, and the clutch worn. I suppose the transmission input shaft/clutch disc splines could be worn, but I wasn't thinking that.
> 
> Originally, you commented that there was some runout in the flywheel, which was hard for you to measure with calipers, but I didn't know if that was in the face, or axially on the rim. If the flywheel face has radial runout, it will wear out the clutch faster, and could be contributing to the oscillation. It could also be wearing the clutch splines into the trans input shaft, or wearing other parts of the clutch, like at the throwout bearing. Don't have any ideas about all that, but I would inspect and measure everything carefully with a proper set up and dial indicator.


got it. Yes, there is a definate radial runout on the flywheel, but since it was flat (no axial runout) and there are no vibrations, I ignored it.  I just assumed the outside of the flywheel is not machined perfectly true. hmmm... and that's assuming I don't have axial and radial mixed up. 



> At 750A and 150+V (although you're probably sagging to under 120 at that current) on a 9" motor, I'd be interested to see how much torque you're really putting into that clutch. Probably way more than stock, especially down low in the RPM range, as you have apparently observed. That output level would tend to aggravate any setup, alignment or wear issues.


well, battery current is limited to 500a, so at the peak it's seeing 500a x 130v (that's about what I sag to at 500a). But that's not happening until around 2000 rpm. Below that the power is lower (less motor voltage), but the torque is still high (750a to the motor). I don't know what 750a to the motor at very low RPM equals, but it's obviously enough to slip my clutch. 



> Good luck, it doesn't seem like much fun...


Sometimes it is not fun. Sometimes it is very frustrating in fact! But this is my project, so it doesn't bother me. I bought a broken EV, I knew the risks... I'd certainly be happy if everything was going together perfectly and working great, but such is life. A few bad battery cells, a clunking driveline, not fun things but it's still fun for me. It beats painting the bedroom... which I should be doing right now.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've officially passed 3000 miles driven since buying the car. 

I drove 35 miles yesterday between a morning swim meet, afternoon softball games and going out for Cinco de Mayo. Had up to 5 people in the car, a few who had never been in an EV before (and didn't even realize it was electric till I told them about 1/2 way through the trip!), and it runs quite well when set to low power levels... To be safe about everything driveline related since for the next few weeks I really won't have any time to work on it, I've reset it to 500a/500a. Drives fine, but I can't really pull off the third gear starts. No big deal, I like shifting anyway. 

I still have hopes of more power (don't we all?), but I can't risk slipping the clutch any more for now, and the backlash at higher power is not good.

fwiw, I've emailed back and forth a bit with Synkromotive and tried a few settings to slow down the current ramp. It really didn't matter, even with the ramp cut in half I have the same oscillation problems at high motor currents. Ives has been very helpful btw, he had me send him a few run logs, looked up the initial burn in of my particular controller, and has been very quick with support. It's not a controller issue though, it's the car. 

At least I am confident in my motor mounts for now, no more babying it off the line for fear of launching my motor through the hood. 

i did have one very exciting moment when testing last week... I was changing around my battery settings in the controller, and accidentally set my low voltage cutback, and my low voltage cutoff at the same voltage. They really should be 2-3v apart to allow for a little overshoot. Anyway, I was doing a full power pull, a little over 500a in second gear, and the controller shut down! I just about went through the windshield...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

the last three days I've been averaging 270Wh/mi down from my more normal 310Wh/mi. Same general driving patterns, same driving habits more or less, the only difference is the temperature. It's been in the 80's to 90's this week. The LifePO4's like the heat! 

I've actually been quite surprised at the difference temperature makes. From my pre-EV reading, I had believed that these cells were fairly temp resistant, but I see a dramatic difference in performance with regards to sag and efficiency. I know my cells are less than perfect so maybe it's more dramatic than others, but no doubt it makes a big difference. In the dead of winter (which around here means 30 degrees F) I could barely get 300a out of them without major sag, now I'm pulling 500a without breaking a sweat. Bring on summer!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Finally, something good out of this darn South heat.

Question: does it get better after you've driven around some? Do you garage your car and if so, what's the typical garage temps overnight?

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. Finally, something good out of this darn South heat.
> 
> Question: does it get better after you've driven around some? Do you garage your car and if so, what's the typical garage temps overnight?
> 
> JR


it's usually in the garage, but 1-2 times a week my wife commutes into work at 5am so if it's going to be an icy morning she'll get the garage that night.  In winter typically if in the garage my batteries would start the day around 45-50F. After a 10 mile run to school and back at normal driving they would heat up around 5-10 degrees F. Nothing real significant. At these temps I pulled a max of 400a, usually it was limited to ~300 based on sag down to 2.7v. 

The days when the sag was really bad was those days where the car sat outside in 30F temps. The battery cases were at 30F when leaving home, and would sag to 2.7v at 250-300a. It was also not charged these nights since I knew the car would be sitting below freezing, so these morning drives with super cold cells were at about 60-70% SOC.

the last few days the cells have started out the morning at 70f. Normal daytime operating temp has been closer to 90f. Again I don't see much cell warming due to driving. Leaving the car out in the sun will ramp the temps up pretty quick though. I've had a few times when I came out to the car and the controller fan stayed on, even before driving anywhere, just because of the underhood temps. Yesterday with the cells around 90F and the ambient also at 90F I observed 500a at 133v, which is 2.77vpc. I have my low voltage 'soft' limit set to 129v (2.7vpc).

With all of this data/info, keep in mind that my cells are not behaving all that normally. I've got some weak ones, and see more sag than is typically reported from other CALB users. It may be that the excessive winter sag I saw this year is more than normally seen with these types of cells.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

i had an odd problem last night... my 12v battery died at some point during the night, and with it the BMS went down which takes out the SSR that the charger is powered through. SO... as a result of the dead 12v battery, my charger turned off at some point during the night. And since the EVDisplay is also 12v powered, it reset to 100% also, so I woke up having no idea what my state of charge was. 

I know I was at -65ah (35ah left on the EVDisplay) when I plugged in, so I know it has to be somewhere between there and full. I've just been plugging in every chance I have during the day, and assumed I started the day at -65ah, so I'm treating 100-35=65ah remaining as zero for the day. Oh, and I plugged in the BMS low voltage warning buzzer too, just in case (I've had it disconnected for some time now, since I regularly sag the cells to where it alarms under acceleration).

other than that, it's been running great.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I ran the pack down pretty far yesterday, according to the EVDisplay I used 95ah. With 130ah cells this would be down to about 27% SOC, but since my lowest cells measures out at ~120ah, it's more like 20% SOC for those cells.

Anyway, I drove 41.5 miles on those 95ah, for 2.3ah/mile. About half of those miles were on the freeway, half around town. According to the EVDisplay, my Wh/mi for the day was 330.

I was not being conservative, in fact the final 10 miles were at 75 mph on the freeway (with one burst up to 80 in 5th gear just to see if it would do it. It did, pretty easily actually). Maintaining 75mph took between 200-300a. I did a few full throttle pulls just before I got home to see how the batteries sagged, and I still got 500a at 130v, which is normal, and the low voltage alarm sounded at 135v, which is also normal. No noticeable change in sag. Batteries were warm to the touch, all terminals were about the same temp. Motor was pretty hot, I let the blower run a few extra minutes after getting home.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I happened to be up early this morning and was watching my droidx as the car reached end of charge (usually this happens sometime overnight while I'm sleeping). I was using my little charger (5.8a, terminates around 167v), and was charging up from yesterday's driving which used 70ah (30ah remaining shown on the display). The EVDisplay is configured to reset to 100% at 166v, which it did with 95ah remaining shown. Charge started tapering about 10 minutes later, I'd say another 1ah or so was put in after it reset to 100%.

so 4ah from a 70ah cycle is 6% error. I don't know if it's on the charge side or the discharge side, or both, but at least it's in the safe direction. Meaning after partial charges my pack will be showing a little lower available capacity than it actually has.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

About a week ago my 12v battery was once again dead when I went to take the kids to school one morning... The 12v battery is a $20 "Super Start" lead acid garden tractor battery, rated at 260cca. No idea how many Ah that is, but obviously not many.  Even less now that I've flattened it 4-5 times...

Anyway, in a moment of anger I moved the DC/DC wire to the other side of my accessory contactor so it is now always on. Brilliant! A week now with no issues. It holds at 13.5v (Iota) and the EVDisplay on my main pack shows either 0.0a or 0.1a when sitting. The car has sat for over a day without driving or charging last weekend, I saw no drop in Ah available on the EVDisplay.

So... here's my questions if anyone is still reading this:

1. I'm paranoid about draining my pack if there's a failure in my DC/DC. How can I set it up so it disconnects when pack voltage drops too low? I do have a MiniBMS which outputs a signal when any cell drops below some voltage (~2.7v I think?), however I trip this a lot when driving under hard acceleration so I'm not sure I could use it for any kind of shut off.

2. I want an indicator in the passenger area showing that the DC/DC is working. A simple voltmeter would be easy, but I think I need an audible warning for when the voltage drops below 12v so I can quickly get off the road. Any ideas on how to do that easily? 

3. Could I buy 4 Headway cells and use them as my 12v battery? My DC/DC floats at 13.5v, which would be 3.375vpc. Is that ok for Headway cells? If I used 4 10ah cells, I'd have 4x3.2x10=128Wh, enough to drive for a 1/2 hour (assuming about 250w usage for the 12v stuff) in the event of DC/DC failure, right? Even at night with full lights and everything I'd still get 15 minutes or so, plenty to get off the road, if not all the way home (seeing as I have a range of 50 miles, I'm rarely far from home...). I'd love to ditch the lead acid battery, and think the Headway cells would look cool under the hood.  How's that for a stupid reason to spend $100? 

4. Is the EVDisplay 'fine' enough to notice a pack that is draining at less than .1a? Will it ever register a loss of Ah at this low current?

I know folks run with the DC/DC always on. But it seems like the most prone to fail part on most EV's, it seems crazy to hook it up full time to the most expensive part (the traction pack), but I sure like how well it functions that way. Is there a mode where a DC/DC would fail in a pack draining way, or would it either just shut off or blow a fuse? In other words, am I worrying about nothing?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. How skilled are you with microcontrollers? Or maybe a ready-made Arduino board? It would be easier to program the values and functions you need in than trying to solve it all with analog language. I'll stand by waiting for the beating from analog purists 

But wait, so is the DC-DC to remain on the pack side of the contactor? And even before that, what is draining the 12V battery in the first place? Perhaps you can start by switching the 12V load off during off times. Maybe you can set your charger to keep your pack's rest voltage and keep your car plugged in when not in use. 

DC-DC devices are fairly reliable and you also have a 12V as a backup and to absorb high current drains. If you want to reduce your risk with the DC-DC, add another one in parallel. But I would look into the 12V load that's killing your battery before throwing 4 headways in as you might not get them back if your drained them hard.

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. How skilled are you with microcontrollers? Or maybe a ready-made Arduino board? It would be easier to program the values and functions you need in than trying to solve it all with analog language. I'll stand by waiting for the beating from analog purists


not skilled at all... Maybe it's time to learn something new?



> But wait, so is the DC-DC to remain on the pack side of the contactor? And even before that, what is draining the 12V battery in the first place? Perhaps you can start by switching the 12V load off during off times. Maybe you can set your charger to keep your pack's rest voltage and keep your car plugged in when not in use.


yes, DC/DC connected directly to the pack. I know there are other options like eliminating all drains, bigger 12v battery, dedicated 12v charger that's always plugged in when parked etc. However I like the simplicity of keeping the DC/DC on if I can be safe about it.



> DC-DC devices are fairly reliable and you also have a 12V as a backup and to absorb high current drains. If you want to reduce your risk with the DC-DC, add another one in parallel. But I would look into the 12V load that's killing your battery before throwing 4 headways in as you might not get them back if your drained them hard.
> 
> JR


thanks for the reply, I certainly would wait some time before replacing the 12v leadie to make sure it's a stable reliable setup before going Li for the accessory battery.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

You still have an Iota DLS-45 right? You remember that you have to also disconnect the 12 volt side ( as without an input to the iota - the output DRAWS down your battery) I thought you had mentioned this and I referred you to Iota mods on my site for the SL2....

With nothing running in the car the battery should last as long as an ICE that sits. BUT with an iota it can suck it down fast because the DC side is always connected - mine has a 75 amp relay that only comes on with the main contactor on the DC side. Main contactor also supplies pac voltage to Iota.

In other words at key off no pac in or NO DC to/FROM battery.

If not ignore the ramblings of an idiot


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> You still have an Iota DLS-45 right? You remember that you have to also disconnect the 12 volt side ( as without an input to the iota - the output DRAWS down your battery) I thought you had mentioned this and I referred you to Iota mods on my site for the SL2...


Yes, I've seen your iota mods, I don't have a relay on the output, but I was pulling the output fuses if the car was going to sit for longer than one night. Still had 12v issues...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi.



dladd said:


> yes, DC/DC connected directly to the pack. I know there are other options like eliminating all drains, bigger 12v battery, dedicated 12v charger that's always plugged in when parked etc. However I like the simplicity of keeping the DC/DC on if I can be safe about it./QUOTE]
> 
> Right, what I was getting at is that if you find what's draining the 12V battery (the BMS maybe?) you can remove that and the DC-DC can go back to being on the switched side of the contactor which is where you really want to be to protect your main pack. Perhaps you can try a relay at the 12V terminal that opens when you're not using the car but I'm not sure if you're going to like resetting your dash clock, etc every time you get on.
> 
> JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Right, what I was getting at is that if you find what's draining the 12V battery (the BMS maybe?) you can remove that and the DC-DC can go back to being on the switched side of the contactor which is where you really want to be to protect your main pack. Perhaps you can try a relay at the 12V terminal that opens when you're not using the car but I'm not sure if you're going to like resetting your dash clock, etc every time you get on.
> 
> JR


yeah, you're right. I've got to find my drain. Stupid 20 year old car wiring... Cutting off 12v every time is not a good solution because that also resets the EVDisplay (not to mention my radio presets ). I just got all excited about how well leaving the DCDC on all the time worked, but really I don't think I like doing it this way, conceptually. At a minimum I've got to implement Dave's Iota mod on the output wires, and maybe permanently wire a battery tender to the 12v leadie to be on whenever I'm plugged into shore power. Both things that have been on my (ever increasing) to do list...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dladd said:


> 4. Is the EVDisplay 'fine' enough to notice a pack that is draining at less than .1a? Will it ever register a loss of Ah at this low current?


I got an email back from Dimitri confirming what I suspected, the EVDisplay will NOT track such a low current draw, and as such the traction pack could be slowly drained over days without knowing it.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

went to back out of the garage today, and something in my shift linkage broke as I put it in reverse. 

floppy shifter, hopefully an easy fix (i have not looked at it yet to see). For now I'm back in the Big Red Van for a few days at least... 

At least it happened in the garage!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dladd said:


> I got an email back from Dimitri confirming what I suspected, the EVDisplay will NOT track such a low current draw, and as such the traction pack could be slowly drained over days without knowing it.


Don't be too hard on him - being able to resolve 0.1A out of 1000A requires circuitry with 0.01% precision, resolution and accuracy (and 14 bits of dynamic range if digitized) which is pretty much impossible to come by in the high noise environment of an EV. Hall effect sensors are an inexpensive way to make isolated current measurements, but they are typically only good for about 9 bits of resolution (that would be 2^9 or 512 steps). That is to say, at best you can hope for +/-2A out of 1000A.

It is possible to make higher resolution/accuracy current measurements in the face of so much noise but it requires a precision shunt feeding an isolated instrumentation amplifier. This will set you back a solid $200 in parts - I know, because I built one for our dyno...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Tesseract said:


> Don't be too hard on him - being able to resolve 0.1A out of 1000A requires circuitry with 0.01% precision, resolution and accuracy (and 14 bits of dynamic range if digitized) which is pretty much impossible to come by in the high noise environment of an EV. Hall effect sensors are an inexpensive way to make isolated current measurements, but they are typically only good for about 9 bits of resolution (that would be 2^9 or 512 steps). That is to say, at best you can hope for +/-2A out of 1000A.
> 
> It is possible to make higher resolution/accuracy current measurements in the face of so much noise but it requires a precision shunt feeding an isolated instrumentation amplifier. This will set you back a solid $200 in parts - I know, because I built one for our dyno...


certainly not meaning to be critical of the EVDisplay! It's doing exactly what it was bought to do, track my battery usage in daily driving use. I'm just pointing out that in my case, I have no mechanism to prevent a slow draw from draining my very expensive cells to zero as the car sits right now. And no way to even know if it's happening! 

I fixed the shifter temporarily with zip ties, and ordered a new shift cable bushing from ebay for a more permanant fix... Seems it's a very common Saturn problem, so common that there's a guy on ebay with the username saturnbushingman selling the part to fix it.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

The AUX battery you are using can't me much in amp-hours (not cranking amps but amp-hours) every time you apply brakes may bring it down quick - but the iota should be covering that when running. When you were talking about a volt meter for the battery - you might consider an amp meter (on the 12 volt side) to monitor some of the discharge - it can show a short or just sitting there can show the draw and you can disconnect things one by one to find the really big draws.... More of a clue as to what is pulling down the battery.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> The AUX battery you are using can't me much in amp-hours (not cranking amps but amp-hours) every time you apply brakes may bring it down quick - but the iota should be covering that when running. When you were talking about a volt meter for the battery - you might consider an amp meter (on the 12 volt side) to monitor some of the discharge - it can show a short or just sitting there can show the draw and you can disconnect things one by one to find the really big draws.... More of a clue as to what is pulling down the battery.


that's a good idea, I would like to put an ammeter on the 12v side. One of these days...  In the mean time, I've still got the DC/DC hooked up full time. I figure it's fine for now since I'm driving it every day, there's little chance of it bringing down my traction pack.

Got the shifter fixed today, my zip ties worked OK, but did pop off a few times in the last week. Always when shifting into reverse, so no big deal (since that pretty much means I'm backing out of a parking spot). I used the Delrin bushing made by saturnbushingman on ebay, easiest fix ever! According to those in the know, the next failure will be the plastic cable end, but there's a pretty easy fix for that too when it happens. 

New question... going back once again to my problem of excess driveline backlash. How much is too much? Right now if I put it in second gear (my normal starting out gear) I can turn the motor shaft back and forth by hand about 45 degrees before being stopped by the wheels. The movement is in the transmission, as I can visually see that the CV shafts are not moving. Is this normal, or is this my problem? I'm trying to decide if I need to replace the transmission, or look elsewhere for my problem.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

No input on the trans huh? I suspect it's fine, everything else about it seems ok. Good shifting, fairly quiet, and it's smooth as long as I gently preload it before taking off. Downhill starts are the toughest to avoid the dreaded oscillation. I think I need to add a motor mount to the bottom of the motor on the passenger side (instead of on the midline of the motor where it is right now), and I'd like to replace all the suspension bushings to eliminate any slop in there. It's a crazy suspension setup (to me, anyway) where the sway bar doubles as a lower control arm. I've never personally seen a car like this before, maybe it's common but it's new to me. Seems like it is really dependent on the rubber bushings, which of course are almost 20 years old now.

anyway, now that school's out and I'm not shuttling kids to and from school, my daily mileage has dropped to the point where I'm only charging every other day or so. Car's running quite well, still more finicky than I'd prefer, my wife doesn't like to drive it at all...  I find it quite fun, and it sure performs well in the heat! I have not missed the air conditioning at all, the fact that it's only really used locally makes it workable. I'm never in the car for more than 30 minutes at a time. Who cares if it's a bit hot? 

My "plan" was to do a pretty major teardown this summer to replace/upgrade the clutch and rebuild the front suspension, but I've decided not to do it for now cause the car is so good in the summer. I'd rather wait till coooold weather comes back instead (which really drops the battery's performance), so I'll wait till this winter... unless something else breaks and forces the issue before that.  In the meantime I've settled on a happy medium of 500a battery and 650a motor side. It's plenty of performance to keep up, and only slips the clutch if I do something stupid (like a full throttle launch in 3rd gear). 

nothing else to report, just been driving every day!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

arg. my charger died last night.  It won't power up, nothing looks to have gone wrong on the car side, the MiniBMS powered relay is still on so no cells overvoltaged or anything, but the charger was off and had only put about 10ah into the cells overnight before going off (about an hour of charging).

I do have a second charger (charges at 5.8a) but this is the third time in the past 6 months that I've had something unexpected kill my charging overnight. Once was a brownout that shut off the charger, one was a dead 12v battery that caused the MiniBMS to cut power to the charger, and now this. Not a major deal in that I do still have a gas powered car, but the reliability of charging is a significant issue for a car as a daily driver.

It's a cheapo charger, looks a lot like this one, and as far as I can see there is no fuse. There must be one in there somewhere though, right? I'll pull it apart and look inside when I get the chance.

Anyway, it's time to evaluate my charging options! I've been wanting to go higher power (I'd like to get around 30a into the batteries) and get J1772 compliant so I can take advantage of the ever increasing number of public charging stations around here, time to get serious about it.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

dladd said:


> Anyway, it's time to evaluate my charging options! I've been wanting to go higher power (I'd like to get around 30a into the batteries) and get J1772 compliant so I can take advantage of the ever increasing number of public charging stations around here, time to get serious about it.


Hey. The Evnetics guys are working (or planing) on a charger. I bet it will be solid, like everything else they put out. Alternatively, you can search this forum for an "open source" charger and build your own. 

If I had to buy one, I'd look for one that's isolated, first and foremost. Then add safeties like auto turn off based on voltage, current and time settings.. everyone forgets the time variable, don't they? Externally controlled is nice too but only so it terminates charging cycle before that "time" setting or current/voltage. None of that BMS controlling when charging starts, how long it goes for or setting of voltage/current levels.

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hey. The Evnetics guys are working (or planing) on a charger. I bet it will be solid, like everything else they put out. Alternatively, you can search this forum for an "open source" charger and build your own.
> 
> If I had to buy one, I'd look for one that's isolated, first and foremost. Then add safeties like auto turn off based on voltage, current and time settings.. everyone forgets the time variable, don't they? Externally controlled is nice too but only so it terminates charging cycle before that "time" setting or current/voltage. None of that BMS controlling when charging starts, how long it goes for or setting of voltage/current levels.
> 
> JR


I am not going to build my own, but I am somewhat looking into the EMW charger. It's a little bit overkill at 10kw, but looks good. Not isolated though, I believe. I'd love to see what the Evnetics guys put out, but that's probably too far away for me. There's also rumors that Synkromotive will package and sell a kit to work with their controller to handle charging, but details are impossible to get. Not sure of the timeline on that one either...

in the meantime I'll just keep on plugging in every chance I get at 5.8a. I'm on a flat metered rate, so it doesn't matter what time of day I charge (on a high mileage day, I cannot fully recharge overnight at 5.8a, I need to do some supplemental charging during the day).


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

i feel like I want to post a monthly update, but quite frankly there is nothing to say... 

I've been driving it, charging it, and driving it. Then charging it. I have not yet gotten around to a whole bunch of little things, I'm starting to think I never will. 

Still getting by with just the 5.8a charger too, pretty much just always keeping it on the charger if I'm not driving. I want a bigger faster charger, just can't quite pull the trigger when I'm getting by OK as it is.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I had a failure today! A wire broke off right at the terminal inside of the small Anderson connector that goes between the charger and the batteries. My fault, they are really not designed for daily usage, and I don't have any strain relief on the wires. With the charger currently out of the car, I have to connect/disconnect the Anderson every time I plug in.

Fortunately my other (dead) charger has the same connector on it, so I snipped it off and wired it onto my working charger. Back charging again! 

The kids are back in school, so my mileage is back up to 30-40 miles per day which is challenging to keep up with when my charger only charges at 5.8a. For a 40 mile day I'll use around 85ah, so at 5.8a it takes over 14 hours to charge.  Basically it means if I'm not driving, I'm charging. 

I've really got to make a decision on a higher powered charger...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

My girls are in a musical this weekend (Grease) and the theater has an EV charging station so I've been using it for a few hours each night at rehearsal this week. Kinda cool, but not entirely useful since I only charge at 5.8a. After a 2 1/2 hour rehearsal, I've put all of 14.5ah back, good for ~7 miles. It's a 20 mile round trip to the theater. 










yes, the car needs a bath! 

Here's the thing that really bothers me. Check out this photo - what do you notice?










So here is a Chargepoint EV station, which offers both Level 2 (J1772) and Level 1 (120v, 16a) options, and can power them both at once. BUT, there is only one parking spot! All the other adjacent spots are handicapped. So, what is an EV driver to do? If you look online the charge station will show Level 1 in use, but Level 2 avaliable. But if you actually go there, you can't use the other charger cause there is no where to park.

It's not the only one I've seen like this either, there is another station that is the same just a mile away at the Civic Center. I don't get the logic here. Who is in charge of designing these installations?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Yeah, Bruce over on EVDL has brought this kind of thing up repeatedly. Also, it is right in front of the place, ostensibly taking a handicapped spot. As he has said, better to put them off to the side out of the way where they are not taking a coveted parking space.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

It's been one year to the day since I got the Saturn running.  

Almost 9k miles (and it was out of service most of Jan-Feb when I did the battery testing/rack rebuild) and running well. The transmission is getting worse, in addition to my ongoing backlash issue, it's now getting harder to shift. Still planning on pulling it apart here soon for some big stuff, but so far I'm just driving it every day as is.

Here's the trunk, I don't think I ever showed a picture of this. I added a simple wood shelf over the batteries and lined it with anti slip material. Then there is a cardboard box bungied on this shelf so stuff wouldn't slide around and bang the charger (which you can see on the lower right) or the upper rack of batteries. Crude, but effective. Much like the whole car.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm going to be upping my voltage pretty soon here 










I'm thinking I'll end up with 57 cells (182v nominal), and a finish charge voltage of 199.5v. In thinking about the impact of this change, I'm making a list of impacted parts and things that need to be addressed. Here's my list so far:

- DC/DC. It's an IOTA DLS-45 that I believe should be fine up to 200v. Resting charged voltage will be more like 190v, time above that will be short and limited to when in the finish charging stage.

- main pack fuse. I'm upgrading this from the 160v fuse in there now to a 300v fuse.

- circuit breaker. I'm going to remove this completely (it's also 160v rated), and replace it with an Anderson SB350 connector with a remote disconnect.

- controller. It's rated for this voltage, no change needed.

- charger. I know I'll need a new charger for the new voltage.

- heater. This one is my unknown, it's an electric element in the car heating duct. It was installed by the original converter when the car was built with 120v of lead. It's now 153v of lithium, and pulls ~17a from the batteries according to my evdisplay. Do I need to do anything with this, or will it work fine at the higher voltage?

anything else I'm missing?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

What are you expecting to gain from going up to 192V?

Have you done some benchmark tests like 0-60mph, Watts per mile, how much the car weighs, and such? I would be interested in seeing what the difference is when pack voltage changes, and there aren't too many hard numbers out there.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Caps18 said:


> What are you expecting to gain from going up to 192V?
> 
> Have you done some benchmark tests like 0-60mph, Watts per mile, how much the car weighs, and such? I would be interested in seeing what the difference is when pack voltage changes, and there aren't too many hard numbers out there.


I don't forsee any real performance increases, maybe very slight since it should hold higher motor current to a few hundred more RPM with the higher voltage. I'm not going to be increasing my battery current though. I have never done full on official benchmark tests, but it's in the 0-60 in ~15 second range, and I average right around 300Wh/mi in normal driving. The car is right around 2800 pounds, not exactly a race car...

There were a few things that lead me to this decision.

1. My mom lives 55 miles away. I have a 50 mile range. I could probably make it if I'm super careful with my driving, but I've never actually tried cause it's just cutting it too close. An extra 9 cells should add ~9 miles of range, so I can visit mom. 

2. I want to try out the controller as a charger idea. To do so requires that I have between 55-60 cells. This is not a requirement, more of a fun thing to do.

3. I really want to replace the two worst cells in my pack, as they sag real bad. In talking with Keegan at CALB (and a few other retailers), they are no longer making the 130ah cells, what he's got right now is all he's going to have. I decided I'd better buy them right now just in case they sell out. Since I was going to order 2, I may as well order 12, right? I'm sure there is a flaw in that there logic... 

4. With the added voltage, my current for a given power level will be lower, theoretically making the cells last a little longer. OK, this one is a stretch, but yes it should bring me from my current 130-140a at 65mph to something lower. It also means I won't be taking them quite so deep into discharge on a daily basis since I have a larger pack capacity. Can't hurt.

5. I need a winter project.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I've gotten into trouble with the logic of, "Well, I've already gone this far/spent this much, what's another few at this point." But those are all valid points. The lack of future spares and extra range are important.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dladd said:


> the other adjacent spots are handicapped. So, what is an EV driver to do? If you look online the charge station will show Level 1 in use, but Level 2 avaliable. But if you actually go there, you can't use the other charger cause there is no where to park.


Simple solution, park where you can and string an extension cord across the handicapped spaces


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Just park on the sidewalk. It isn't labeled a No Parking space.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

regarding the EV parking situation, at the end of the day I've decided to abandon trying to use public charging at least for now. Even with a decent little infrastructure around me it just doesn't make sense. In my admittedly short one year of driving an EV, I have not had to use public charging one single time. I've done it just for fun a few times, but never depended on it. I'm not sure how you can depend on it when there is typically one charger at each location. I'd hate to get there and be left high and dry cause someone else is already plugged in. 

So I'm not going to bother with J1772 connectivity, and with only a 16a 120v outlet the power is not really there to make opportunity charging worthwhile imo.

anyway... no one commented on my question about the heater element. Here it is quoted again from the above post, anyone know if this is an issue?



> - heater. This one is my unknown, it's an electric element in the car heating duct. It was installed by the original converter when the car was built with 120v of lead. It's now 153v of lithium, and pulls ~17a from the batteries according to my evdisplay. Do I need to do anything with this, or will it work fine at the higher voltage?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

dladd said:


> - heater. This one is my unknown, it's an electric element in the car heating duct. It was installed by the original converter when the car was built with 120v of lead. It's now 153v of lithium, and pulls ~17a from the batteries according to my evdisplay. Do I need to do anything with this, or will it work fine at the higher voltage?


Answering my own question here... Anyway, I got some good help over on the EVDL, the basic answer is YES!  It IS a problem.  In fact it's a problem that it's drawing 17a right now at 158v, that's about 2600w through a 1500w element... Would be even worse at 185v. It appears that I have some low quality elements in there that don't temperature regulate as well as the 'good' ceramic elements would. 

So I rewired them, instead of wiring each element (+)(-)(+)(-)(+), it's now (+)(empty)(-)(empty)(+) which essentially converts them to 220v heaters instead of 110v. I'm now underpowering them. I observe 14a total now through both elements, 6a through the one with the most usage (the one that was carrying 17a before) and 8a through the other. Should go up to ~15a or so with the higher 185v pack, for a total of 15a x 185v = 2775w. Should work just fine!

Here's a picture of the two elements as I found them when I pulled down the ducting. Very nicely installed by the original converter! It's embedded into the original heater core.










And here it is now, just moved a few connectors around and taped a few off.










as an awesome added bonus, check out what I found when I stripped out the ducting, a perfect hole through the firewall! I've been wanting to run a few more wires through, and also a cable for a remote disconnect. This will be perfect. It's right next to the hole the original converter used, these are the pass throughs for the heater core.










here's a shot from a little further back showing the core mounted up in the heater ducting. I'm REALLY glad I could get to the wiring so easily without actually having to pull the dash or heater core all the way out.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Last weekend I bought a Killawatt meter to measure energy consumption into the car. I plugged it in on Monday moring, as of this morning I've used 60.40kWh to go 161.3 miles (averaging 32.26mi/day). There was a fair bit of night/rain driving, meaning lights on. And a bit of heater usage. As well as some heater usage in the garage during the testing of my ceramic heater elements as I was rewiring them (only around 5 minutes total though).

So, with those numbers I see 60400Wh/161.3mi = 374Wh/mi. Based on EVdisplay numbers I saw in-car usage of right around 300Wh/mi, though I don't monitor it all the time, just every once in a while.

Do these jive? How efficient is the typical cheapo chinese charger? It looks like mine is just about 80%. I thought it would be better.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Man, those heating ducts sure came out a lot easier than they went back in!  Here's to hoping I never have to do that again...

Anyway, I made up a little wiring harness:










that has 6 different colored wires and a Cat5 cable (so I won't have to run it out the hood and through a window anymore when I want to hook up to my controller).  I pulled it through the firewall hole, and just coiled and bundled the wire on both ends for now. I'll hook some of them up later, not sure what for yet, but always good to have a few more wires than you need, right? I also fished through the choke cable that I'm going to use for a manual disconnect. It won't be hooked up for a while until I finish with the battery upgrade, but again may as well run it through while it's all opened up.

It took me a few hours this morning, some duct tape (to fill the gaps where I snipped the heater ducting to pass my new harness through) and a few zip ties, but I got all the ducting back together and everything works as it should. yeah! Now with the defroster on full, and both elements on, I'm pulling 15a (including the power for the fan itself) versus the 17a through a single element I used to pull.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've got a few days on the heater now. With both elements wired for 220 and powered from a 150v DC pack, I'm pulling ~14a or about 2000W. This is OK for defrosting the windshield and taking off the chill at 40f, but would not be nearly enough if it were actually cold. Fine for me here in California, but if you live in a place where it gets really cold this would not be enough heat. IMO.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

You can get heated clothing that is more efficient than heating the entire cabin (unless you have passengers):
http://heatedclothingoutlet.com/index.shtml

12V heating pads:
http://www.amazon.com/Trillium-Worldwide-TWI-2202-Heated-Travel/dp/B001NBCKYO

You may also consider using small heating pads on the lower back such as are used by divers:
http://www.scuba.com/scuba-gear-159/031270/Patco-Aqua-Heat-Dry-Suit-Heater.html
http://www.patcoinc.com/ (Tony is a long-time friend so he might give you a discount if you mention my name)

Just for defrosting you can use these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-rubberized-heater-with-fan-96144.html


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Hi Paul, I actually have a set of heated gear from Gerbing that I use for motorcycle riding. Good stuff, definitely works well and only draws around 100W total for a vest and pants. Works especially well since it's worn under a full riding suit so the heat has no way to escape. I bet a 12v heated seat cushion with a back would work pretty well in a car. Around here I'm fine with just a sweatshirt and beanie, especially if I get to keep my car in the garage overnight (usually I do, but not always). 

Mostly the car heater is for window defrosting, it works well for that. I have my doubts that the 12v 15a (180W) defroster you linked to would really do much for a foggy windshield on a rainy day! but it definitely would draw less than the 2000W I use now...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I have to drive the van tonight! My state of charge got a little lower than I like, and I have a 10+ mile drive at night in the COLD, and I didn't want to risk taking them too low. First time this has happened all year! At least unexpectedly. I've driven the van here and there when I knew I'd be over my range limits in a day. According to my EVDisplay, I was just over 410Wh/mi today.  Normally it's more like 310. 330 on a bad day. But it was 30 degrees F this morning, never got over 50, and I ran the heater most of the time. The combination of the cold weather battery sag, and the heater usage dropped my usable range to ~30 miles  . 

FWIW, I was hitting my low voltage limit at around 250a this morning on the way to school. That's about as bad as I've seen it. Winter is here!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Happy New Year! still just driving it every day, I seem to be averaging ~375Wh/mi lately. The weather has been cold (30's overnight warming to 50ish) along with some heater usage, and the car has been living in the driveway instead of the garage so the cells get cold overnight (no battery heaters). I have stalled a little on working on the car as other things in life have taken priority for at least a while here. I hope to get back at it soon though, I'd like to get the new batteries in, and get a higher power charger. Mostly I want to fix the drivability issues so that other people can drive the car easier (my wife). This will, I believe, require pulling the motor and trans from the car for inspection/repair. Not happening anytime soon!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I saw my first Tesla S up close and personal yesterday! It was in the parking lot of a local restaruant, the lady was loading her dog into the back when I walked over. I think I alarmed her a bit with my enthusiasm.  Sweet car, soon as that longshot comes in, I'm totally getting one!

Anyway, I haven't worked on the Saturn at all lately, just driving it every day. My garage is still not cleared out so it's living in the driveway which significantly affects performance since it's been in the 40's. Maxxing out at around 300 battery amps lately which is fine, but not exactly 'fast' or anything.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ah the life of the rich and famous...taking the dog out for fine cuisine in the Tesla.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> as an awesome added bonus, check out what I found when I stripped out the ducting, a perfect hole through the firewall! I've been wanting to run a few more wires through, and also a cable for a remote disconnect. This will be perfect. It's right next to the hole the original converter used, these are the pass throughs for the heater core.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Be careful with that!

The gutter under the windshield will have a drain port roughly above that heater core access hole (covered with a rubber flap). If it rains hard enough, water runs down the outside of the firewall and depending on how your wires are oriented, it may catch a ride inside.

I thought my windshield was bad until I tracked down the problem. Ended up with 3" of water in the floor LOL

I bet that heater keeps things nice and toasty though. Mine is only about 1.5kw.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

david85 said:


> Be careful with that!
> 
> The gutter under the windshield will have a drain port roughly above that heater core access hole (covered with a rubber flap). If it rains hard enough, water runs down the outside of the firewall and depending on how your wires are oriented, it may catch a ride inside.
> 
> ...


Interesting, after the last big rain I did notice that my carpet was wet! I just assumed it was leaking in through the door seals from the roof rack. I know I get a slow drip from there at least, but maybe some is coming through the firewall too. I'll check it out. In the meantime, I've been putting a dehumidifier in the car at night while charging to keep it dried out. Helps the defroster work in the mornings too!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

If you put a small deflector behind (under - and if you have room left on the engine side of firewall! ) you can make it go out away from the hole...

Dehumidifiers defeat the purpose. They really suck the AC current - almost as much as a heater ... I ran one in a basement years ago - stopped after the first power bill LOL.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> If you put a small deflector behind (under - and if you have room left on the engine side of firewall! ) you can make it go out away from the hole...
> 
> Dehumidifiers defeat the purpose. They really suck the AC current - almost as much as a heater ...  I ran one in a basement years ago - stopped after the first power bill LOL.


The real solution to all of my problems (battery sag, leaky doors/firewalls, dehumidifiers) is to get my garage cleaned out so I can get the car out of the elements!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You just need a bigger garage. Or a shed, or attic storage, or all of the above...or maybe that's me


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've got plenty of space. What I need is less stuff!


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

dladd said:


> I've got plenty of space. What I need is less stuff!


Ha! That cracked me up. Same here. Plus my wife is making a sneak attack on my remaining free space of MY garage. For the time being, I installed a retractable awning on the side driveway. It keeps the convertible out of the rain at least.

BTW, does the sag go away after driving some? Can you hit the same max speed as before but just at a slower ramp? Does it affect overall range or just how much current you can draw at once? 

JR


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Ha! That cracked me up. Same here. Plus my wife is making a sneak attack on my remaining free space of MY garage. For the time being, I installed a retractable awning on the side driveway. It keeps the convertible out of the rain at least.
> 
> BTW, does the sag go away after driving some? Can you hit the same max speed as before but just at a slower ramp? Does it affect overall range or just how much current you can draw at once?
> 
> JR


I don't see any significant self heating. There is probably a little, but a few degrees at most, not enough to be a real difference in sag. When it's cold out, I'm current limited for the whole ride. My speed really isn't any different, even at 200a it's still enough to drive. I pull between 100-150a at 65mph on the freeway, it just takes a little longer to get up to speed (I sometimes end up merging at 45mph or so which I don't like to do). There's a few hills around here that I drop down to 55mph or so, but so do a lot of other people. I just stay in the right lane. For in town driving, it's no issue at all. Range is affected, but not too much. Maybe 3-5 miles? It's hard to really know though, since when it's this cold out I'm also using the heater which REALLY sucks the juice. My heater pulls ~14a.

My daily driving is generally 20-35 miles, split up in 10 mile or less chunks. There is often the opportunity to charge during the day too, so range is usually not a big issue for me.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Alright, some actual changes! Not exactly earth shattering, but I got a new charger. So it's been a bit of a saga for me on the charging front, when I got the car the previous owner included 2 chargers. One charged at 9a, one at 6a, both only from 110v. Sometime last year the 9a charger died, so I've only had the 6a. It works, but occasionally after a high mileage day I'll wake up in the morning and the car is not done charging . So some time ago I decided to up my charging rate. So I've decided that I want to upgrade to a charger that will input an honest 20a into the batteries, as that would guarantee a 5 hour max charging time (I never go below 100ah used).

My decision at the time was to move forward with 'Synkro-charging' which is using my Synkromotive controller as a charger. This is good for at least 20a from a 14-30 (or 14-50) socket. The upsides are it's cool  cheap(ish) since I already own the charger and different. The downsides are it's 110v only so there is no option for J1772 compatibility, it requires 56 cells and I only have 48, so I would need to up my voltage, and most importantly the info on how to actually do it is simply not out there... Just around the corner I was told for some time, but lately the emails have dried up altogether and I just don't think it's ever going to be an officially supported option from Synkromotive. Anyway, I actually bought a bunch of parts (more batteries, cable, some other stuff) to go down this route, but have abandoned those plans. I do still plan to up my voltage anyway (and replace a few weak cells too) so the batteries and cable will still be put to good use. 

So... long story longer... my new requirements became the ability to push 20a into the batteries, J1772 compatible (because the city I live in just installed 6 new charge stations and I'd like to be able to use them), and preferably the ability to change the voltage endpoint since I don't know exactly how many cells I'll end up with in the future.

The EMW charger looks sweet, but it's very expensive at $2300 (for the fully assembled air cooled PFC version). It's also massive overkill, I just don't have a need for that kind of power. The Elcon chargers are cheaper, a 5kW charger would be ~$1500, but they are not user adjustable. In the end, I came across an Ebay auction for a Manzanita Micro PFC30 charger in 'new condition' for $1500 so I decided to jump on it. It meets my requirements, 20a should be no sweat, it's adjustable, and at $1500 seemed like the way to go. When I received the charger, I discovered it is completely new, never even plugged in. sweet!

so without further rambling (too late, I know...), here's the install:

Here's a look at the location where I decided to install the charger. 










This is after I removed all the plugs and wiring from the old charger, and already made the charger support brackets. They are simple 1/8" steel strap that I bent and massaged into shape to match the contours of the car. The bolts going through the body are backed with fender washers, it's all pretty stout. In the bottom of the fender well you can see a hole leading directly to the ground. Not sure what this was for originally, but it's in a perfect location to be an inlet vent for the charger. I did put a plastic 'shield' over the hole, but it's about an inch above the hole so there is still plenty of airflow on both sides. It should keep debris out though. Here's a pic with the plastic shield screwed in place:










It's a very tight fit, but the charger is not touching the body anywhere, and there is about 2" open under the charger for airflow. The exhaust vent is out the top right at the side of the trunk, I plan to just leave the trunk open a bit when charging to provide airflow for the hot air to get out. I currently always crack the trunk when charging, so that is nothing new for me.

Here's a photo of it mounted:










I obviously need to pull it all back out and finish/paint the wood (and metal framework), but I'll do that later (yeah, right  ) The only major downside of this orientation is that I cannot get to the voltage adjustment screw with the screwdriver. I set it prior to installing the charger, but if I need to adjust it I'll either have to remove it all, or drill a hole through the quarter panel...

Here's a shot from a little further back, you can see how nicely it is tucked into the wheel well. I'm quite pleased with how well I got it in there! 










This photo shows the relation of the exhaust vent to the trunk lid opening, and the complete lack of access to the voltage adjust screw (it's above the two large cables)










And... here's a picture with the battery cover on, and actually charging the car with the new charger! 










I installed new 8awg wire (my old charge wire was 10awg) from the batteries to an Anderson SB50 which mates up to the SB50 that came already installed on the Manzanita charger. The AC wiring is temporary (and obviously limited to 110v for now), I have an L6-30 inlet that I am going to install under the gas door (where a 5-15 is right now), and I've also ordered a J1772 adapter that will go somewhere. I don't have all the details figured out for that yet, I'm waiting till I get all the parts and can actually look at them in the car before I decide how to mount/wire it all in. I'm visual like that.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I wired on an L6-30 receptacle today and did a quick test at 220v. Here's a photo from the test, as you can see it shows I'm drawing 20.44a AC, and putting 31a DC into the batteries at 164v. I measured the no load line voltage at 234v










something doesn't add up here... My output is (31a)x(164v)=5084W But my input is only (20.44a)x(234v)=4782W. I seem to be harvesting free energy here. 

So am I measuring something wrong here? Which is the most likely to be wrong? AC voltage is just no load at the plug. AC current is a handheld clamp on meter that you see in the photo. DC voltage and current is the EVDisplay, which generally has always seemed very accurate.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Are you only measuring one leg? and is the meter measuring RMS? I see it is on the red wire.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There may be a DC component on the AC current or high crest factor. A true RMS reading or scope trace may confirm this. It's only a 7% difference so it also could be meter tolerance or calibration.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> Are you only measuring one leg? and is the meter measuring RMS? I see it is on the red wire.


It is just clamped around one hot wire. There are two hots and a ground, black white and green. The white just looks red in the photo because the camera turns everything white to red for some reason. I usually use my phone for a camera, but in this case the phone is also my EVDisplay so I had to dig the old camera out of the junk drawer. 

I don't know what you mean about measuring RMS, isn't that a voltage thing?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> This photo shows the relation of the exhaust vent to the trunk lid opening, and the complete lack of access to the voltage adjust screw (it's above the two large cables)


 Seems like you could hinge the bottom of the metal bracketing and put wing nuts or something nicer on the upper bolts on it so you can just remove the wing nuts and tilt the charger out for access to the voltage limit adjustment. Could add a rope stay to limit how far it tilts, so it doesn't touch the batteries.

Something funny on the power measurement for sure. It might be due to the way the DVM is sampling current. If the EVdisplay is correct, it is either the voltage and/or current measurement, or the power factor is not 1. If you happen to have a hot water heater element laying around you could measure it's resistance, hook up the AC to it, measure current and see if it equals V/R. Or any resistance that can handle 240VAC for that matter, and give a reasonable current. A voltage of 234V seems reasonable. Mine is usually 238 to 242V. The meter is measuring Vrms, so likely measuring Irms also, which is what you want, the "effective" current and voltage.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> Seems like you could hinge the bottom of the metal bracketing and put wing nuts or something nicer on the upper bolts on it so you can just remove the wing nuts and tilt the charger out for access to the voltage limit adjustment. Could add a rope stay to limit how far it tilts, so it doesn't touch the batteries.


I had that same thought today! At the very least, I should flip the two L brackets that are bolted through the trunk floor around so the bolts are accessible without removing the charger from the mount first, duh! Then all I'd have to do is remove 5 bolts and the whole thing will come out as one unit, instead of having to assemble/disassemble it in place. Everything is more obvious once it's been done wrong. 

So another observation today. When I first hooked up and tested the charger (before it was permanently installed in the car), I did it at 110v and around 8a. I set the voltage endpoint per the manual by letting it charge the cells up, and incrementally raising the limit until the 'limit' light came on at right around 168v (my top of charge target). This went fine, and was repeatable on a few more charges.

Today after I wired up the 220v/30a plug I did some charging at 30+ amps into the batteries (from my dryer outlet). The limit light came on fairly quickly at around 163v. The current didn't really seem to drop much, but after 20 minutes or so the charger shut off (as it should, since that's where the timer is set for). I was not nearly charged yet, probably sitting at about 70%. Why would the limit light come on at only 163v when it was calibrated at 168v?

Do I need to set the voltage set point different when I'm charging at 8a vs. 30a? That would be a bummer as I'll often want to do both in the same day. Overnight at 110v, opportunity charging during the day at 220v.

How often do you mess with the voltage set point?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

OK, did some more reading/researching on the net last night... Based on the fact that my charger has the "New 8A Control Board" (which was phased in mid 2010) and does not have a line meter on the faceplate (became standard in Jan 2011) I've narrowed down my charger's initial build date to somewhere in late 2010. Not that it really matters... Except that it means I do have the optional volts trim and current trim potentiometers already in there. Seems to me that they are for exactly what I'm wanting to do, a preset for more than one charging current.

So, in answer to my own question, it appears that different current rates will require different voltage threshold points, and it looks like the ability to do that is already there. As usual, RTFM. 

So I think I'll set the main volts trim for a 20a charge rate (since that's what I plan to use most of the time at home on my 220v outlet) and set one of the optional volts trim pots for an 8a charge rate (for 110v charging). For wide open J1772 charging, I'll probably just crank up the current manually and let it shut off early (using the 20a volts trim pot) if I'm there long enough. Keep it on the safe side.

All that sound about right?

and every day I come up with another little idea to improve the mounting of the charger, as well as my wiring strategy. I think I'll let it all sit and percolate in my mind for a few more days before I pull it out and re-do it. 

And I got the J1772 adapter box in the mail yesterday from tucsonev.com (of course I ordered it just before the price dropped...  ) so I'm going to head downtown today and try it out. I'll have to take the long way to burn off some wattage before I get there, as I'm fully charged right now and downtown is only 2 miles away.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I used to have to change the limit voltage to adjust for summer versus winter temps, as well as different charging currents when my pack was bottom balanced - to avoid overcharging the highest cell and still get a full charge. Don't have to do that with it top balanced. I haven't touched the limit voltage for over a year. I do get several Ah less charge at higher charge currents, but not enough of a difference to worry about. I have the timer set for 15 minutes.



> and every day I come up with another little idea to improve the mounting of the charger, as well as my wiring strategy. I think I'll let it all sit and percolate in my mind for a few more days before I pull it out and re-do it.


Yeah, usually better to mull things over a while after you've gone through one stage of learning. You went to school on that iteration.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

OK, one more quick post today, then I've got to get my taxes done! I drove downtown and tried out the J1772 adapter box at a Chargepoint EVSE. Swiped my card, plugged it in, flipped the toggle switch on the box, and it went live! cool beans.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It makes sense that the charge peak voltage would be higher at higher current, because of the internal (and external) resistances of the pack. There may also be a "soaking" effect where the internally parallel connected cells take some time to distribute their charge. A 5 mOhm resistance drops 100 mV at 20 amps, which adds up to 5 volts with 50 cells in series. I think Elithion showed a charging curve with a period of constant voltage and a tapering off of current to achieve a full charge. 

If the charging current is not pure DC, it may have enough ripple to have peak voltage points of 168V while the average DC is 163 volts. This also indicates that the charging current may have even more ripple, because the battery load is pretty much a constant voltage in series with some equivalent series resistance (ESR) which is evidenced by voltage ripple.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Took advantage of my new found freedom (being able to charge quickly means I can expand my radius a bit!) and ventured a bit further from home today. I stopped at a charging station for a quick top off before heading home, next thing I knew I was in the middle of a parade route! I ended up getting stuck there for about 30 minutes longer than I wanted waiting for the parade of little leaguers to go by...










I had a few conversations with passerby's as I was standing around watching the parade (and the car charging). They all went something like this:

them: hey, is that really electric?
me: yup. 
them: How'd you do that? what did it cost you?
me: well, it's an old forklift motor and a bunch of batteries. I probably have close to $20k in it by now.
them: whoa. How far can you go?
me: around 50 miles.
them: <silence>
me: <smile>
them: uh... have a nice day.

I don't think I'm a very good EVangelist.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> Took advantage of my new found freedom (being able to charge quickly means I can expand my radius a bit!) and ventured a bit further from home today. I stopped at a charging station for a quick top off before heading home, next thing I knew I was in the middle of a parade route! I ended up getting stuck there for about 30 minutes longer than I wanted waiting for the parade of little leaguers to go by...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't feel bad. The last open house I attended for my college most HS students didn't even know my car was electric. I'll bring a sign next time


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I've taken mine to a number of EVents and the conversation is similar to yours. 
How far? How fast? How much? Usually positively surprised by the answers to the first two, walk away after the answer to the last.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

It is the same thing:

Checking on a middle-schooled waiting for bus after track practice.

He is madly "texting" away...

I say, "you are pretty good at that."

He says, " yah." 

I ask, "you know how that works?"

He says, "Nope.."

I ask, "Do you want to know?"

He says, "Nope.."

And I say, to my self , "this is what is wrong with education - and the world. We don't take apart clocks, build scooters and cars - we just use and abuse them!" 

That is why the crew on this forum is so darn important - we are a lost breed !


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I get the same thing guys, with all the project cars in the shop (about what they will eventually do), and especially Scrape, because it runs. I get everything from ridicule to disappointment when I give the specs because I never built it for range. That almost made me change the bike to suit public opinion, then I remembered where I was going.





Dave Koller said:


> ...And I say, to my self , "this is what is wrong with education - and the world. We don't take apart clocks, build scooters and cars - we just use and abuse them!"
> 
> That is why the crew on this forum is so darn important - we are a lost breed !


Agree 100%. It took me a while to realize that most of the wows and wide eyes I get are just because I am doing _something_, and coming from people who regularly do _nothing_ that physical/creative/inventive; and this in a community workshop that is here to promote such behavior. 

Makes you wonder where this mess will end up, on its present course, in a few decades. Even this Maker movement that I'm naturally a part of here - it's different. It's too structured and carefully planned, almost staged. I was just thinking about this over the last couple days. Being here in this community workshop, and listening to/watching the new breed of hands-on people (Makers), I notice how much time they spend discussing how, and the 1001 things they expect to encounter, and they endless options to address every conceivable obstacle - I learned by grabbing some tools and ripping stuff apart and putting it back together. It's partially because of the age we live in. You don't just tear an app apart and reconfigure it, like you would a bicycle.

Makes me glad to be me, and have been where I've been in life.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

In 50 years only the rich will not be driving electrics...but we were here first


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> It's partially because of the age we live in. You don't just tear an app apart and reconfigure it, like you would a bicycle.


I'm happy to say I did recently teach my 11yo daughter how to fix a flat tire on her bike.  

I'm thinking about my cabling situation at home. Up till now, all my charging was done on a 12/3 extension cord to a 120v outlet in the garage. It easily passes under the closed garage door without hurting the cord or lifting the door and leaving a gap. Now with the 220v/30a option, I'm using a 10/3 cord which is significantly larger. It does fit under the door (ie: the door doesn't reverse when it hits the cord) but it leaves a mark on the cord where it's pressing it into a lip in the concrete, and it leaves a small air gap under the door threshold. I was thinking of mouseholeing the bottom of the door, or digging a little 'trench' in the concrete floor to pass the cord(s) through, anyone done anything creative for this issue? 

Speaking of cords, I'm also trying to decide what adapters to make. So far I've ordered connectors to make up the following cords:

10-30p (old dryer outlet) to L6-30r (what I need at home)
14-30(and 50)p (newer dryer outlet or welder/RV outlet) to L6-30r
5-15p (standard 110v outlet) to L6-30r
TT-30p (110v RV outlet) to 5-15r 

Seems like that covers what I would need, any others you've found useful?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

OK, another question here... 

My house is old, and there is no GFCI for the garage 220v outlet. Instead of replacing the breaker, can I add this in the car? Just wire it inline with the L6-30 inlet before the charger. That way I'm GFCI protected no matter where I plug in.

This is rated at 220v/30a. Will it still offer protection when plugged in to 110v? 

The way I'm wired up the L6-30 inlet is connected to vehicle chassis through the Manzanita charger, so this inline GFCI would be upstream of any grounding even though it's physically downstream of the inlet.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dladd said:


> I was thinking of mouseholeing the bottom of the door, or digging a little 'trench' in the concrete floor to pass the cord(s) through, anyone done anything creative for this issue?


Depends on the door. Mine have a small gap where you can thread cords around the track and out so the door doesn't even touch them.

Someday I'll also stick in some kind of outdoor switched outlet in the sidewall of the garage door pillar.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A 220V GFCI should offer protection on 110-120VAC, but it might not allow the unit to reset. Most GFCIs require a certain line voltage before they can be energized, and 120V might be too low. You would need to look at the spec sheet. It is interesting that the wires are black and white, rather than black and red, as would be expected for 220VAC. It is permitted to use white for a 220V hot line, but you need to paint or tape the conductor with a black (or perhaps red) stripe to indicate that it is not neutral.

Here is the data sheet:
http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-h-datasheet.asp?FAM=Ground_Fault&PN=GFP2301

Looks like it needs 240V +10% -15%. So it is not rated for 120V.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> A 220V GFCI should offer protection on 110-120VAC, but it might not allow the unit to reset. Most GFCIs require a certain line voltage before they can be energized, and 120V might be too low. You would need to look at the spec sheet. It is interesting that the wires are black and white, rather than black and red, as would be expected for 220VAC. It is permitted to use white for a 220V hot line, but you need to paint or tape the conductor with a black (or perhaps red) stripe to indicate that it is not neutral.
> 
> Here is the data sheet:
> http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-h-datasheet.asp?FAM=Ground_Fault&PN=GFP2301
> ...


Thanks Paul. I tell you, I'm a bit confused on all this grounding stuff right now. I've read a ton of stuff about the PFC chargers and grounding safety. I'm not sure where to go with it all?!? Obviously an isolated charger is better, but this is what it is. 

For now the only connection from AC ground to vehicle chassis is through the green wire on the output cable with the anderson SB50 (the charger body itself is isolated on wood). It's my understanding that Manzanita Micro ties AC ground to it's charger chassis, and the chassis to this green wire, so by tying it to vehicle ground I've grounded the AC as I'm supposed to do.

BUT there are quite a few folks who say that's not what I should do, and that it's better to leave the charger completely floating and not tied to ground at all. 

I just want it to be safe, I don't want to be frying any cats that crawl under the car while it's charging. Or kids, for that matter!

Anyway, my meager understanding is that whether or not the charger is grounded, it's a shock hazard so NEVER work on the car at all while it's charging. And being plugged into a GFCI will keep living beings safe from shock either way. So really I'm not sure why it matters either way if the AC line is grounded to the chassis.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

A GFCI essentially reads the current going out one wire and back on the other, and trips in 100 mSec or less if the difference is greater than 5-20 mA. It is assumed that this current may be going through a leakage path to ground, which would include people, animals, or insulation breakdown. If you have a GFCI it will not protect you if you touch across both leads. The best protection is proper insulation of all power components and connections, so accidental touch is prevented, and also proper procedures that disconnect and isolate components and power sources when working on them. 

You may be able to rig up a DIY GFCI by putting a CT around the two power conductors and a rectifier bridge and SSR on the output. A 50:5 CT will provide 3 mAAC for 30 mAAC imbalance. This may be enough to trigger the SSR which could trip a relay on the power side. If you want to protect a DC source, you would need something like a Hall effect sensor, and it may be tricky to zero the output sufficiently to avoid false trips. You will also need to protect against a full short circuit where hundreds of amps may flow through the CT. A large TVS diode may work for this, but the current needs to be switched off quickly.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> You may be able to rig up a DIY GFCI by putting a CT around the two power conductors and a rectifier bridge and SSR on the output. A 50:5 CT will provide 3 mAAC for 30 mAAC imbalance. This may be enough to trigger the SSR which could trip a relay on the power side. If you want to protect a DC source, you would need something like a Hall effect sensor, and it may be tricky to zero the output sufficiently to avoid false trips. You will also need to protect against a full short circuit where hundreds of amps may flow through the CT. A large TVS diode may work for this, but the current needs to be switched off quickly.


haha, I can assure you I have no interest in trying to DIY a GFCI!  I just want to make it all as safe as is reasonably possible. I know, 'reasonably' is the tricky word here.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I just went online to change my Chargepoint account to allow me to use EVSE's that cost money. I knew it requires a Visa to be on file, so I hadn't done it before, but now that I can actually use Level 2, I figure I may as well be prepared. I was surprised that not only do they require a CC on file, but they require a $25 deposit to be taken from the card! I don't like this at all. I don't have to do this with Chevron or any other gas stations. Those are pay at the pump as you go, why are the EVSE's different?

I hesitated and didn't sign up yet, but probably will. It bugs me that I have to pay $25 before I ever even use any electricity though.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well... I buggered a CV joint yesterday.  I heard a fairly loud thump on accel, and now there is a steady banging/rattling sound when on neutral throttle. It's still driving OK (made it home, anyway) but obviously something is wrong. A quick 'crawl under the car and grab stuff' reveals quite a bit of slop in the passenger side CV.

I believe this is a symptom of the play in the transmission, not so much a problem with the CV itself. So the time is here, I need to pull it all apart and replace the trans. While I'm in there I'm going to swap to a better motor (still a Warp9, just one that's in better condition) that I bought some time ago when I thought the original one in the car was damaged beyond repair. I've also got a whole set of front end bushings to install, and would like to install a beefier clutch (it slips with any more than 650a to the motor right now).

Good news is a local salvage yard has a running SL2 that they are parting out, I'm going to grab the trans. It's newer and has a slightly taller 2nd gear (all other gears are the same), but I don't think that's a big deal. 2nd gear will go from 2.056 to 1.950, probably not enough to really notice.

step one, clean out the garage so I can get the car inside.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

One word -- ouch! ...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Alright, I'm going to just acknowledge the fact that it's been a year since I've updated this thread, and admit up front that the car has, in fact sat unused for most of that year...  I fired it up and drove it around the block every month or so, and put it on the charger enough to keep the batteries in good shape, but the clunking/rattling driveline kept me from actually using it.

But as of last weekend, it's back in the garage and I'm going to get it back on the road. There, I said it out loud. 

My wife recently bought a Ford Fusion Energi (plug in hybrid with a ~20 mile EV range) for her commute, and driving that around on the weekends in EV mode has renewed my energy and enthusiasm to get my EV running again. I admit I picked up a cheap old Saab convertible last summer that gets great mileage and is fun to drive, so I was not all that motivated to fix the Saturn. But the time is HERE NOW!

More updates to follow, just a little 're introduction' to get the ball rolling. Probably not going to be a quick fix, I don't have much time to work in the garage these days. But it will get done! The car as it sits as of this morning with the electrical stuff out and axles removed, ready for the motor/trans to be pulled:


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Simply :


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I got a couple of hours of work in today, motor/trans is out and split apart! Everything looks pretty good, the coupler was still tight but came right off the motor (it is a slip fit woodruff key/setscrew type hub). Here's a shot of the motor with the flywheel off, before removing the coupler:










Here's the "new" trans (straight outta the junkyard), I'm channeling my inner evmetro and actually cleaning it up a bit...










turns out that foaming engine cleaner stuff doesn't really do much... I had better results with a bucket of laundry detergent and a scrub brush. Anyway, this is how it ended up, much cleaner.










I also started seating new brushes in my motor. It's a different motor (remember waaaay back on page 1 when I thought the motor was wasted, but it turned out to be OK so I never used the spare one I bought?) that I bought used, but it had very little use from what I see. I put in new brushes anyway, the H60 ones that evtv is selling. Here it is spinning smoothly, hooked directly up to a 12v battery. I can run it for about an hour before I need to stop and let the battery charge up a bit. I figure I'll do that a few times until I'm ready to hook it up to the trans.










That's it for today. Lots to do, but so far no surprises. Taking it apart is always easier than putting it back together though...  Good night!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

A few more hours in the garage this morning, not much to show for it though... Still running the motor on 12v an hour here and there while I finish up other things. Today I installed new control arms and poly sway bar bushings. I want NO EXCUSES for driveline looseness so everything gets brought up to spec. The old control arms were a bitch to knock out of the knuckles, other than that it was pretty routine. Time to grab some lunch and get some actual work done today, I hope to get the motor/trans back in within the next few days.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

messed up my photos and accidentally double posted. fixd now.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Big Problem 

I started to reassemble the motor/trans today, and have an issue with the adapter plate. Well, with the motor actually, but it affects the adapter plate. Here's a photo of the DE of the Warp 9 I pulled out:










Notice how the four adapter plate mounting holes are spaced in the middle of the DE end plate bolts? Here's the replacement motor (also a Warp 9, but obviously not the same)










Notice the adapter plate mounting holes are right next to the DE end plate bolts. This messes up the positioning of the motor obviously, which is significant because there is an intermediate axle bearing carrier that is bolted directly to the motor (which you can see in that last picture).

What do I do?!? Is it as simple as swapping the DE housings? I don't know motors well enough to know if I can just do that.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Yes, swapping plates looks like a terrific idea to me. Take some key measurements before you take it apart of course. Good catch!

edit: compare the drive end bearings while it is out, make sure the one going in isn't wonky. You might consider going over the whole motor while you have a complete set of parts there.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

A google search shows me that swapping DE end covers is not a quick and easy solution. It's pretty much a complete tear down of the motor, including press fit bearings. so as I see it, here are my options:

1. swap DE ends. Not trivial, and possibly over my head. At the very least, I'd need a big ass puller. 

2. re-drill the adapter plate. No way I can do that, would have to pay a machine shop. Have not inquired locally yet, but it seems like the simplest way. Re-drill the holes 30 degrees over. 

3. Buy a new adapter plate. ~$850, not likely to be my choice...

ugh. this has really taken the wind out of my sails today.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I think you can get the drive end off with a couple of well chosen and lubricated bolts, a couple fender washers, and a 2x4 with two holes drilled in it. You just have to turn the bolts evenly, keep everything straight and square. The videos I looked at the brush end plate came off very easy (just hand pressure on the puller screw), the drive end took more pull, but I don't know if it was enough to ruin a bearing. They appear to be captured ball bearings and handle 500lb clutch loads all day.

Of course it is your motor, your call. I would start on the plate with the unusable holes first.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Further inspection shows me that what I thought would be the easiest option (re-drill the adapter plate) will not work. As you can see in this photo of the backside of the adapter, if I move the hole 30 degrees as roughly drawn on the part below, it will not go through the spacer part of the adapter which the motor sits against. This will not work. 










so I'm left with options:

1. move DE end from old motor to new. 
2. buy new adapter plate.
3. Screw it and just use the old motor.

I'm leaning towards 3. Other than a voltage leak to ground through the motor, there is nothing wrong with it. I was simply planning to swap motors because I already have this second never used motor available. I dunno, I'd still like to swap it out just because. But not at the expense of a new adapter or the risk of screwing something up by swapping parts between motors.

Life is about to interfere for a few days starting tomorrow, so I've got the weekend to mull it all over.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I can't imagine redrilling the holes as being the easiest option. They have to be very precisely located, would probably remove the plate.

The brush end comes off easy enough, you could swap drive ends with the rotor too, if your leak to ground is in the field coils then that's progress. But why not see how hard it is to get the drive end off the bearing since you have two there?

here is what im suggesting re puller, pretty sure swapping drive ends is gonna be anti climatic. You remove 4 bolts, and pull off the drive end, no major dissassembly required.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

yeah, it's probably not a big deal, I just feel funny pulling apart a new motor. It's not new in the time sense, probably 5 years old or so, but it's never been installed in a car. Yet further web research tells me that buying a new adapter doesn't even solve the problem, as the Canev adapter is different than the custom one I have so the position of the new motor on the Canev adapter still would require a new intermediate shaft bracket. 

So... it's down to either use the old motor, or swap the DE. Or, I guess, modify the intermediate shaft bracket. Dang, I need less options, not more! 

Either way I was planning on taking apart the old motor for 'educational' purposes once I was done with the fix. I guess I'll just do that first and see how it goes.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

well at least the new bearing stays with the new motor 

LEmme know how it goes, good idea starting on the used one first. Keep it level, and if it is a block of wood you can give it a bit of a smack right over the shaft with a hammer if the nuts are tight but nothing is happening.

Edit, and you will have to use the cap screws or something longer to pull the new drive end on, just keep it level as you go again, and some taps around the bearing with a plastic hammer wouldn't hurt.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Much ado about nothing, it was no big deal to swap DE ends. I emailed Netgain and got some good info back about the motors. turns out they were only manufactured about one year apart (2007/2008), just happens to be at a time when the mounting pattern changed I guess... Anyway, George sent me a .pdf of a shop manual for the Warp9, and in it was a link to a great youtube video made by some guy in Germany showing the disassembly of the motor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxRYY6s67fY

I followed his lead and pulled both my motors apart, and put the old DE cover on the new motor. 

First I made a simple motor 'cradle' to simplify holding the motor in place while working on it:










the hole is only there because it was already in the piece of scrap wood I found in the garage. I pulled the brushes out, but left them hanging on their leads, and the CE pulled off the motor with no puller, just a snug slip fit. From there, I pulled out the armature and set it up on the workbench for better access with the puller. Here's a pic of the puller I used ($29.99 ebay special...) to pull the DE off the armature:










it worked great, popped right off. I then did the same steps on the second motor, and so far so good! I now had both motors apart, and the old DE with the bolt pattern I needed was ready to go on the new motor. I put the DE in the oven (don't tell on me!) at 200 degrees F for about 1/2 hour (bearing still in it):










and it dropped right on the armature without any persuasion. Reassembly was simple, did the same oven thing with the CE (brushes and all) and it slid together with very little force. And voila, new motor with old bolt pattern:










I'm going to run it in for a few more hours before re-installing it to re-seat the brushes, then hopefully soon it will be more adventures with transmissions... onward and sideways.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Love the Oven thing congrats !!!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I got a little garage time this morning and mated up the motor and trans. Here's the new motor with the adapter plate and flywheel coupler:










and here's a quick video of it spinning on 12v with the flywheel. Nice and smooth, no wobble or vibes. 






I didn't get a photo of the new clutch plate, but it's an ebay stage 3 disk with 6 friction "pucks" instead of the solid circular friction surface of the stock one. here's my OSHA approved (uh... probably not) pressure plate holder so I could torque the pressure plate bolts. 










and lastly, here's the motor/trans all mated up and ready to go in!










both girls are in softball tournaments this weekend so it's unlikely I'll get any more work done until next week sometime, but slow progress is still progress.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so... three months later, lol. 

I made a deal with myself about two months ago, if I don't get this car running and out of the garage by the end of summer (loosely defined as when the girls go back to school, which is Aug. 18th) I'm selling it. As much as I enjoy the car when it is running, and like having a project to work on, I simply have not made the time lately for it. Other things have taken priority. This weekend I figured it's time to shit or get off the pot, lets see if I can find my mojo!

I had all day Sunday, and got the motor back in. Awesome engine hoist, huh?



















This morning I had a few more hours and got the electrical stuff mostly back in place, but am missing a few things that got 'misplaced' in the last few months... as it sits now:










I 'should' be pretty close to firing it up but there are a lot of little things to do. I need to pick up some 12awg wire at the hardware store in the morning, wire a few things up, and find my struts! How on earth does one lose a pair of struts in a suburban 2 car garage?!? 

While I was down there, I replaced the sway bar bushings, CV shafts, and the control arms (which come with new ball joints). 

The thing that has been the most challenging is that I did not plan on such a long time between taking it apart and putting it back together, so I didn't really take many notes. dumb!!! Electrically everything is labelled, it's more the Saturn stuff. Like how the CV's go together with the knuckles and control arms, and which washers go where. Stuff like that. 

Hopefully there won't be a 'for sale' posting from me next week.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Don't sell! I certainly know the feeling of project burnout and low motivation to find free time. Luckily for me it happened while the car was at least drivable. It ebbs and flows. 
Your garage looks a lot like mine, so you will probably need a little luck to find your struts. Best of luck, and I hope you can get it driving again soon.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Joey said:


> Don't sell! I certainly know the feeling of project burnout and low motivation to find free time. Luckily for me it happened while the car was at least drivable. It ebbs and flows.
> Your garage looks a lot like mine, so you will probably need a little luck to find your struts. Best of luck, and I hope you can get it driving again soon.


I think I also have the fear that it will still not be quite right. In this rebuild I've replaced the motor, clutch, transmission, CV's, control arms, and suspension bushings. If I get it all together and still have slop in the driveline, I'm gonna cry. I'm a little afraid to be done and have to actually try it out! 

This morning I got the HV circuit connected back up, and the 12v battery wired in, and fired up the EVDisplay. It's been a few months since I charged up the cells at all, without the EVDisplay on all I had to go by were the little green lights on the BMS boards. As long as they were all green I wasn't worried about it. 

Good news, the pack is sitting at 158v (which is somewhere nicely in the fat part of the charge curve at ~3.29v/cell) I'm sure I'll have to do a bit of balancing due to the stagnant cells with BMS boards on them for the last year, but that's no big deal. I'll be very careful on my first few charging cycles and make sure I'm there to monitor the cells.

Controller fired up, motor turned in neutral (without struts I'm not spinning the transmission yet), everything looks good so far.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Don't sell -- you fixed it now !!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

It drives! I officially drove it out of the garage and around the block for a few miles, I don't have to sell it.  

So far so good, but the motor current is limited to 350 for now since it's a new motor/brushes (I don't have any official reason for this, just seems like a good idea). I'll hold off any judgement on driveline issues until I can crank up the current. But there is definitely no 'clunk' like there used to be.

Alignment is way off, it pulls pretty hard to the right, and the brakes suck. Maybe they were always this bad, I don't really remember. Maybe they are just rusty. But it RUNS!!!

btw, the struts were on a shelf behind the camping gear.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

And the crowd goes wild!!!


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

No video? Then it didn't happen!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> No video? Then it didn't happen!


sorry, I'm an air cooled dude in a water cooled world. I'd have to ask my kids how to do that. It took all my tech ability to get my laptop hooked up to my controller to change the motor current limit. Seriously, I've replaced my laptop (the old one was stolen) since I last worked on the controller and had to re-download the program and USB drivers. It took me longer than I'd care to admit... 

How's this though


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

dladd said:


> It drives! I officially drove it out of the garage and around the block for a few miles, I don't have to sell it.


Grrrrrrreeeeaaaat!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so far so good, still plodding along in the slow lane at 350 motor amps. 

I do have a bit of a howling at over 40 mph coming from the front right, I suppose either a CV (which is new) or a wheel bearing (which is not new, but is a bitch to replace). I'm betting on the wheel bearing, but don't really know. It desperately needs tires and an alignment, I may see if I can find a shop to do that and see if they can tell which is the problem while they are in there.

Here's a shot from my kids' school parking lot yesterday (first day back to school). Parked behind this guy. Pretty much the same thing, right? Except I can take 4 kids to school and he can't, lol.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> so far so good, still plodding along in the slow lane at 350 motor amps.
> 
> I do have a bit of a howling at over 40 mph coming from the front right, I suppose either a CV (which is new) or a wheel bearing (which is not new, but is a bitch to replace). I'm betting on the wheel bearing, but don't really know. It desperately needs tires and an alignment, I may see if I can find a shop to do that and see if they can tell which is the problem while they are in there.
> 
> Here's a shot from my kids' school parking lot yesterday (first day back to school). Parked behind this guy. Pretty much the same thing, right? Except I can take 4 kids to school and he can't, lol.


I love the roadster (everything except the price).

I think if the noise was from the CV, the noise would get worse in a turn. I know this goes against the diy spirit, but I'd be tempted to see how much to replace the wheel bearing (or what ever they diagnose) while you had it in getting aligned. At this point, I would just want to get it back on the road. Great job getting this far with it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dladd said:


> ...I do have a bit of a howling at over 40 mph coming from the front right, I suppose either a CV (which is new) or a wheel bearing (which is not new, but is a bitch to replace). I'm betting on the wheel bearing, but don't really know...


Jack it up, put it on jackstands (of course), remove the wheel in question, transmission in neutral, and turn the hub by hand. Sometimes you can feel a bad bearing clunking through the bad spots, by hand (directly on the hub), where spinning it by the wheel wheel/tire assembly can mask the clunking.

I had a bad wheel bearing on a Honda Accord once that drove me crazy. Tried changing tires, alignment, everything. Even at the alignment shop, when I told them I was trying to get rid of a (droning/humming) noise, they didn't catch the wheel bearing. Spinning by the wheel it seemed fine. Removed the wheel, and turned it by hand, and it felt like a multi-position rotary pot, with balls and detents.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I had a noise in my 1999 Saturn SL1 that was worse when negotiating a turn and I was almost sure it was a CV joint, but my mechanic found that it was just the brakes. At least those are less expensive and easier to replace. You can probably get the whole axle assembly from a junkyard for a couple hundred, and it might be cheaper and easier to replace the whole thing, but keep the old one for parts. I think most of the parts from at least 1996-1999 are interchangeable, and your 1995 looks a lot like mine so it may also apply.

Good job getting her on the road! Got that EV grin?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> Good job getting her on the road! Got that EV grin?


For the most part, yes. It is 90 degrees today, I admit it would be nice to have air conditioning, lol.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

A mini project here, I had an extra set of motor mounts (I'm using the stock mounts for the main motor/trans locations) and I stiffened them up with urethane. Over the weekend I picked up a (pricey!) tube of 3m Window Weld and squirted it into all the gaps on both mounts. I let them sit up for a few days, then put them in this morning. I only drove it a few miles, but there is a minor difference. A bit less backlash due to motor/trans movement when going from off throttle to on throttle. And hopefully stronger too.

before:









after:









That is some messy stuff! definitely wear disposable gloves when using it.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I dropped my car off at a shop today for new tires and an alignment. I feel so nervous just leaving it there with the key, lol. It's a bit weird to drive (can't really tell when it's on or off, don't need the clutch, the usual stuff) but the owner of the shop (who does all the alignments) seemed fine with driving it when we talked about it's peculiarities.

Anxiously awaiting a call...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

nothing to worry about, my baby did fine. 

He couldn't set the camber correctly (it's about 2" lower in front, and 3" in the back from stock) but it's close enough... I may re-spring the rear one of these days to raise it up a bit (right now it's on saggy stock rear springs with rubber lift helpers in the coils) but I'm happy with the front on some ebay found H&R lowering springs.

So now it drives straight and has shiny new rubber shoes (the cheapest 195/60/15 I could buy  )! It seems smoother and quieter too, but that may just be my imagination.

no picture because, well, it doesn't look any different.

I'm well over 100 miles since putting in the motor with new brushes, I'm gonna bump it up from 350 motor amps to 500a now. Wheeeee!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

My batteries are a bit unbalanced, I've got a bunch going red (BMS is saying they are over 3.5v) when I reach about 165v at 6a. I should be able to hit around 168v before seeing red. For now I'm just killing my charging at 164v. My usual trips are 10 miles, and I can charge pretty much whenever I want, so range is not an issue. Until I get around to balancing the cells a bit I'll just keep them between 164v and 50ah used (yes, I know I'm mixing my units...). 

It's driving well at 500 motor amps and 390 battery amps (3c). I plan to leave it there. Plenty of pep, but no worry about ripping anything up.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Great news. Glad you're back on the road.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

my headliner is done. It's been ripped a bit since I bought the car, but now it's completely falling down. I ripped most of the fabric off in a moment of rage yesterday... I've never replaced a headliner before, is it hard? Seems like it wouldn't be too bad, the hardest part I think will be getting it out of the car without folding/damaging the cardboard like material that the fabric glues to. Got a few things around the house to do first, but maybe in a week or two I'll tackle this.

fwiw, in the last week or two of daily driving the kids to school and back and other around town stuff, I'm averaging around 280 Wh/mi. That's a little better than I used to get, most likely due to the alignment I'd guess. Possibly due to the better condition motor too, I don't really know. I'm happy with that number though, it's about 50 miles without dropping below 100ah used (on my 130ah cells) if I did my math right. Realistically I have not had to go further than 30 miles/charge yet, so no worries at all.

I got a great compliment this morning too. On the way to school, one of the 11 year olds in my carpool (who has been riding with me a few times/week for the last month) says, "hey, I didn't know this car was electric, cool." I'm not so much impressed that she thinks it's cool, more that she didn't even know it was electric. It's just another car to her, lol.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

downtown this morning doing a little shopping. Three Chargepoint stations, all being used! First time I've seen them all in use at once. And as I was leaving, a Leaf pulled up and took my spot.










It's not all sunshine and roses with the Saturn though, the tranny/clutch area is developing some odd noises at times (in neutral with the clutch engaged. When I push in the clutch the noise goes away), the 'Window Weld' I filled the motor mount with has pretty much separated and is coming loose, my passenger CV sounds nasty when turning while in reverse, and my controller occasionally shuts off when under heavy load (it's happened three times in the last few weeks, I don't know the cause). 

Onward and... well, onward.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dladd said:


> downtown this morning doing a little shopping. Three Chargepoint stations, all being used! First time I've seen them all in use at once. And as I was leaving, a Leaf pulled up and took my spot...


I was at a Kroger last night and a very nice silver Model S pulled in - best looking one I've seen yet. He parked across the lane from my (ICE) Saturn SL, as I was walking to the store. I got back to the car before him, sat and stared at his car, then watched as it lit up when he got to the car, power up, and glide away - beautiful car, and awesome to see in action at dusk.

Just thought it was interesting that we encountered Teslas, in our Saturns, within hours of each other - even though mine was belching dino fumes. 






dladd said:


> ...It's not all sunshine and roses with the Saturn though, the tranny/clutch area is developing some odd noises at times (in neutral with the clutch engaged. When I push in the clutch the noise goes away)...


Sounds like a bad throwout bearing.






dladd said:


> ...Window Weld' I filled the motor mount with has pretty much separated and is coming loose...


Rats, I was hoping you would have good feedback about that - nice idea anyway. Maybe you had some grease and/or oil in the rubber before you filled it?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

dladd said:


> A mini project here, I had an extra set of motor mounts (I'm using the stock mounts for the main motor/trans locations) and I stiffened them up with urethane. Over the weekend I picked up a (pricey!) tube of 3m Window Weld and squirted it into all the gaps on both mounts. I let them sit up for a few days, then put them in this morning. I only drove it a few miles, but there is a minor difference. A bit less backlash due to motor/trans movement when going from off throttle to on throttle. And hopefully stronger too.
> 
> before:
> 
> ...





dladd said:


> It's not all sunshine and roses with the Saturn though, the tranny/clutch area is developing some odd noises at times (in neutral with the clutch engaged. When I push in the clutch the noise goes away), the 'Window Weld' I filled the motor mount with has pretty much separated and is coming loose, my passenger CV sounds nasty when turning while in reverse, and my controller occasionally shuts off when under heavy load (it's happened three times in the last few weeks, I don't know the cause).
> 
> Onward and... well, onward.


I think I still have the original engine mounts from my car in storage. I can send them to you, if you want?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

toddshotrods said:


> I was at a Kroger last night and a very nice silver Model S pulled in - best looking one I've seen yet. He parked across the lane from my (ICE) Saturn SL, as I was walking to the store. I got back to the car before him, sat and stared at his car, then watched as it lit up when he got to the car, power up, and glide away - beautiful car, and awesome to see in action at dusk.
> 
> Just thought it was interesting that we encountered Teslas, in our Saturns, within hours of each other - even though mine was belching dino fumes.
> 
> ...


It's a daily occurrence to see Model S's around here (SF Bay Area), as well as many other electric cars. In fact, on any given day in the parking lot of my kids' elementary school there is one Model S, one Roadster, one Fiat 500e, and my Saturn.  

Agree on the throwout bearing, but it's new with the new clutch/trans less than 500 miles ago. I fear something else is amiss. Maybe I just got a bad part. Either way, I don't plan on replacing it anytime soon unless it completely fails. 

I have not lost hope on the Urethane, I just don't think I prepped it well enough, I just squirted it into a used part without taking the time to clean it really well, and now it's popping back out. There are clearly a lot of forces at work here trying to twist and squish the mounts, much more than the stock engine ever induced. 



david85 said:


> I think I still have the original engine mounts from my car in storage. I can send them to you, if you want?


Thanks for the offer, but the mount itself is fine. The urethane is just not staying where I put it. I may try again one of these days, maybe not.

I do still want to re engineer my lower torsion mount on the motor side, I'm not happy with either it's location (I'd like it to be under the motor for better leverage) or it's mounting (I think there's some flex in the mount I made for it). That I plan on tackling pretty soon, along with a rebuild (a bit beefier) of the upper motor side mounting plate as well.

Lots and lots of little stuff I want to do, but I'm happy to be driving it again.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

In all honesty that caused me a lot of grief with my car too. Supporting the motor was easy, but coming up with a way to restrain the torque on the motor end too 3~4 attempts before I was finally happy. The warp9 is a really tight squeeze in there so its not easy to make something small enough but still strong enough.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I've got a problem this morning. I went to head out today and the alarm from the MiniBMS was on. I cycled the ignition, still on. Fired up the app on my phone, and it shows 90% state of charge (was not on the charger last night) and 159v (3.31vpc). Both fine.

OK... All the visible cells were green lighted (OK) so I pulled out some tools and removed the cover from the hidden cells. They are all green lighted too. 

So pack voltage is fine, each cell MiniBMS board is showing green, but the alarm is still on. I pulled the wire to the alarm and am now on the hunt for the directions to the MiniBMS (it's been a long time since I've messed with it.).

it's always something...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

crisis averted, lol.

A quick read of the manual told me it had to be in the alarm loop, either a bad connection or a bad board. 48 boards x 2 connections = 96 spade connectors to check! 

I figured the quickest way to find the problem was by taking a short piece of wire and jumping the alarm loop connectors across each board until the alarm went silent. So I did, and it worked! And amazingly enough, I found it on the 11th board I tested, not bad. 

The alarm went quiet when I jumped from the board side connector to the other board side connector which told me it was in the board itself and not with my connectors. Luckily for me I have a handful of extra MiniBMS cell boards lying around from way back when I was going to increase my voltage, but never did. So I swapped out the BMS board and all is fine. The new one is still the old style board so they all match, one is just a little cleaner now (second from the left).


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

These boards seem to go bad from time to time...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Frank said:


> These boards seem to go bad from time to time...


at least it failed in a safe manner!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

minor update, I mentioned the controller cutting out a few weeks ago. I've kept it set pretty conservative (400 battery amps, 500 motor amps) and have had no further cutouts. I think I'm generally happy at these settings, performance is fine, if a bit dull. But nothing is breaking. 

It's been chilly the last few mornings (in the 40's F, and the car sits outside overnight) and I've been using the heater. It works well, but does raise my Wh usage from about 280 to around 360Wh/mi. Seems excessive since the heater only draws 12a (at pack voltage), but it's what my EVDisplay has been telling me the last few mornings. Some of the efficiency loss is due to added battery sag as well, which I suffer from a lot when it's cool out).

One of these weekends I need to do some testing and determine which cells are the worst and need to be pulled from the pack. I have at least one that is alarming the BMS when pack voltage is still around 140v (should be 2.9vpc, alarm trips at 2.5v). I have a cell log 8 that I set up long ago to graph the cells while driving, but it's been so long I've forgotten how to use it. Or even where it is, lol.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

dladd said:


> It's been chilly the last few mornings (in the 40's F, and the car sits outside overnight) and I've been using the heater. It works well, but does raise my Wh usage from about 280 to around 360Wh/mi. Seems excessive since the heater only draws 12a (at pack voltage), but it's what my EVDisplay has been telling me the last few mornings. Some of the efficiency loss is due to added battery sag as well, which I suffer from a lot when it's cool out).


 A 29% increase in energy/mile would be reasonable if you are driving mostly at lower speeds and spend some time sitting at traffic lights. The heater is a constant power draw, traction power varies greatly with conditions.
Edit: there are two effects here...the heater is a constant power draw, energy/time, so the energy it uses per mile traveled decreases with increasing vehicle speed. The Wh/mile used for traction obviously increases with vehicle speed, so you get a result like this (for my car with 3.1kW heater):
View attachment Cabin heater wh per mile.pdf

Percentage energy used by heater varies from 77% at 10 mph to 13% at 70 mph


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

I am interested in your project because I have used essentially the same car; a 1994 Saturn SC2. I have a max range of 47.7 miles with 36, 100 Ah LIFEPO4 cells. The car can do 80+ mph and it ruins very well at 60 mph without drawing too much energy. I have room in the truck for groceries and more room up front for more batteries so that I can extend the range to 65+ miles. I see that you had the same problem as everyone else concerning the drive shaft support unless you have the automatic trans. Mine has a manual 5 speed that does not have support for the drive shaft on the passenger side. I solved that by welding up a bracket that bolts on to the back of the drive motor and to the drive shaft bearing. The shaft support must not be fixed to the chassis because something will break. I hung the motor from the original engine mounts so that it is shock mounted. It looks like you have done a lot of good work. It takes time to get the bugs worked out. I have taken my car apart 4 times now and each time it got better. There are not very many people with the motivation to do what you have done. So, be proud and have fun.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Sirwattsalot, that's very impressive efficiency! I have all my cells in the trunk (with a decent sized box still available to carry stuff) and have room for 12 more cells up front. At one point I was going to go that route, but have abandoned that plan since it's meeting my needs as it is now. I really don't want to spend more on this project at this point, I'm just going to continue to improve it as I can, for now it's working well for me.

I would love to see a picture of your motor mounts on the passenger side. I assume you've done a plate up to the stock motor mount on the top, but the lower mount is the confounding one for me. I'm always up for seeing how someone else tackled the problem.


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

I used U channel steel with a 90 degree bend at the top into the motor mount. At the bottom I ran a length of steel bar from a bolt on the back of the motor to the bolt in the bracket on the frame. I ran this bar at approx. a 40 degree angle. The lower support prevents the whole thing from twisting and the top is what is holding up the weight of the motor. The AC50 is not very heavy so it can handle it. Another way to go would be to pass the bolt in the bracket through a rubber piece inside of a tube welded to an arm that is rigidly connected to the motor mount. Either way, it is important to shock mount everything. 

I have been driving my car 30 miles to work and plugging in there before the trip home. I will be adding some more batteries not because the car is not working for me now but because I am obsessed with pushing the limits. I have 36 more LIFEPO4 cells (Calb brand) rated at 40 Ah which will bring the total to 140 Ah at 120 volts. I should have a little more hamster power as well as better range.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=402&pictureid=2994

Above is the best picture that I have with the motor installed. I will see what else I can get.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=402&pictureid=3018

Went shopping today and I got lots of strange looks.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

tomofreno said:


> A 29% increase in energy/mile would be reasonable if you are driving mostly at lower speeds and spend some time sitting at traffic lights. The heater is a constant power draw, traction power varies greatly with conditions.
> Edit: there are two effects here...the heater is a constant power draw, energy/time, so the energy it uses per mile traveled decreases with increasing vehicle speed. The Wh/mile used for traction obviously increases with vehicle speed, so you get a result like this (for my car with 3.1kW heater):
> View attachment 28466
> 
> Percentage energy used by heater varies from 77% at 10 mph to 13% at 70 mph


I'm using the heater again this week, but not the whole way. It is annoying seeing the Wh/mi ticking up slowly while I'm sitting at a stop light. I tend to either shut off the heater while I'm stopped, or shut off the EVDisplay so I am ignorantly blissful (and warm). 

My drive to take the kids to school is almost exactly 5 miles one way, and it's been taking around 15 minutes. So assuming 280Wh/mi I'd use (280Wh/mi)x(5mi) = 1400Wh for driving. Add in 15 minutes of heater usage at 12a x 144v (guessing at an average voltage for the drive) and that's another (15/60)(12x144)= 432Wh.

So add those together and it's (1400Wh+432Wh)/5mi = 366Wh/mi. Pretty much right on what I'm measuring.

So, moral of the story is the heater draws a lot of energy!


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Maybe some heated seat covers? Cheap and you could reduce your cabin heater usage.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

There was a thread awhile back discussing cabin heating and cooling. Some ideas:

1. Clothing (gloves, socks, vests, hats) with heating elements. They can be purchased from hunting stores.

2. A heating pad on the small of the back. My friend makes diving heaters and that is where the pad is optimally located. http://patcoinc.com/

3. Infrared heaters directed toward the hands and feet where heat is needed most.

4. Small electric heaters with fans (such as heat guns and hair dryers) which direct hot air toward the driver and passenger(s) as desired.

5. A reversible air conditioner / heat pump adapted for automotive use. You can get about twice as much heat out (BTU/hr) as you inject as electric power (watts). Works OK down to about 40F.

6. Fill a large container with hot water and/or other hot material, before leaving the house, and extract heat from it as you drive. 

7. Use a small catalytic propane or methane heater, taking appropriate safety measures to monitor O2 and CO.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Seat warmers would really help I think, my other car (an old Saab convertible) has them and those with a beanie and some gloves and I'm generally fine. 

My wife and I actually have full heated gear (vest for me, long sleeve top, pants and gloves for my wife) for motorcycle riding. That would be funny to wear while driving, lol. Might need a bigger DC/DC though..

Paul, I also have a Mr. Buddy heater in the garage that I use for camping. I guess I could use that, but it would cost more in propane than it costs to just use my traction pack and recharge it when I'm home. I suppose if I were pushing limits of range it could be an option.

All in all, there's something to be said for having a 50 mile range, and only needing to drive 10 miles at a time. When I'm cold, I just crank up the heat.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

My BMS alarm went off again today indicating a low cell. Car was just sitting in the driveway at around 85% charge at the time. A quick check of the BMS boards (after removing the cover over the batteries in the trunk) showed all green lights meaning no cell was low, so I pulled the wire to the alarm.  

If you recall, this just happened not long ago. At that time, I found and replaced the bad BMS board. I assume that's the case again, but this time I saw that everything was wet. Not soaked, but clearly there is a lot of moisture in the trunk. We just had a week or so of a LOT of rain (unusual these days) and apparantly some water found it's way into the trunk. Seems coincidental, to be sure.

Anyway, I tossed my little de-humidifier in the trunk. I'm going to check it out in the morning and see if drying everything out fixes the problem. If not, I've still got a few more (11, in fact) BMS boards on the workbench.

Other than that, it's still running pretty well. I still have lots of battery sag which limits my acceleration (particularly on cold mornings, sometimes I'm lucky to hit 200a) but it's meeting my daily driving needs quite well.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

The de-humidifier did it's thing (it's a real small one, like this), and all is dry in the battery compartment this morning. Plugged in the alarm wire, and all is quiet. We'll see... Huge storm supposedly coming tonight/tomorrow, wish my garage wasn't so full of crap!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

I wonder if you might spray an electronic board moisture sealer on all the bms boards (top and bottom)?


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Dave Koller said:


> I wonder if you might spray an electronic board moisture sealer on all the bms boards (top and bottom)?


sounds like a smart thing to do. I'd be surprised if there isn't already some conformal coating on the boards, but maybe it's wearing off or something? I'll look into this a bit.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have dealt with moisture problems and the resulting leakage and noise in high sensitivity and high impedance circuits, and found several ways to deal with it. First and foremost is to clean all flux and similar residues from the PC boards using strong alcohol or other solvent, scrubbing with a small stiff brush. Then follow that by spraying the board with detergent, and again scrubbing and using hot water to get rid of ionic and hygroscopic contaminants such as salt. Finally, rinse the entire board with hot water (and preferably distilled water), and thoroughly dry it with a heat gun and/or baking in an oven, but the blast of hot air helps dispel the water from under components.

Once that has been done, you can spray the sensitive areas of the board with a conformal coating, but make sure the board is totally clean first. I prefer the acrylic coating, but silicone is also good. Epoxy types may be best, but are essentially permanent and do not allow easy removal for repair. If the atmosphere is humid enough for condensing moisture, it may be necessary to add a heater of some sort to keep the PCBs above the dew point. But that might be a problem with a battery pack, unless the power is provided from an external source, like a charger.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm having an ongoing struggle with moisture. Yes, even here in California, lol. I'm not sure where the water gets in, but it does. I thought it was from my roof rack where the clamps are under the door seals, but I removed the rack some time ago and it's still getting wet inside. Despite my best efforts with keeping the car open when the weather is nice, and running my little dehumidifier when it's not, I'm seeing bad things. In the passenger compartment, it's just things like moist carpeting and one ruined seat cover (didn't realize it was wet underneath until it was too late and moldy). In the trunk/battery compartment, I'm getting surface rust on metal stuff. My battery terminal bolts are showing rust on the corners and the unpainted rack pieces have a layer of surface rust on them. The under hood stuff is all fine, guess there's defiantly something to be said for either having full ventilation (under the hood) or being fully sealed. Sort of sealed, but not quite (my trunk) is the worst case scenario...

The BMS is working OK, but I still get the occasional false alarm going off when they get a bit of dew on them. My solution is to unplug the piezo buzzer until it's all dried out again... Obviously not an ideal environment for electronics. If my cells weren't so all over the place in terms of capacity and condition, I'd remove the BMS all together. But with my wonky pack, I feel like I still need it in place. 

And no, I have still never gotten around to replacing the weak cells, despite having new ones in the garage. Just too many other projects that have priority over a still running daily driver I guess!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well that's not good... 









So I dropped the kids off at school, then went to an appointment. When I went to head home, nothing... 12v was fine (radio) and I heard the first relay close (it's powered by the 'key on' position) but not the second relay (which is controlled by the controller). Pulled out the voltmeter and the pack was fine at 156v. DCDC was putting out a solid 13.5v (it's always on). I was down to about 30% state of charge (did not charge up overnight), but everything should have been fine.

A little investigating found the 5a fuse to the controller 'always on' 12v power source was blown. I popped in another 5a fuse, turned on the key and it blew. So I closed the hood and called for a tow. 

I fear it's going to be a send in the controller and we'll take a look kind of thing, we'll see. Hopefully something simple? I'm an optimist like that. :roll eyes:

[on edit]: Forgot to add, it's a Synkromotive controller. And for the record, in the three or so years that I've been driving this car off and on, this is the first time I've had to be towed.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

well, even more not good news...

I emailed Synkromotive on Thursday to ask what my repair options might be (it's obviously out of warranty, but was hoping they could at least fix it for a fee). I did not hear back.

I emailed again, and did not hear back.

Their website is old and most of the links are dead (the manual is not even on their site anymore, it appears) and I was unable to find any phone number.

That really sucks.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

how sure r u its the controller?
could the fuse have blown from something else?
in the zilla, if the snubber diode accross the contactor has shit itself and is making a short, it will blow the fuse u r talking about
but thats zilla


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

arklan said:


> how sure r u its the controller?
> could the fuse have blown from something else?
> in the zilla, if the snubber diode accross the contactor has shit itself and is making a short, it will blow the fuse u r talking about
> but thats zilla


No, I'm not sure at all. But I do know the Synkromotive controls the contactor internally so if there's a problem with the precharge it's all inside the box. I'm not in a major rush, lots of other things going on for me right now and I have a running Saab I can drive, so the EV will sit for a bit no matter what while I figure out what to do/who to get help from...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

ok, so maybe I panicked a bit early, lol. Ives emailed today. I'm getting a few pictures to him and we'll go from there.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

whew!! You had me worried there. You've put way too much work into this car to have it end like this.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Ha, no. I will admit that I spent some time on ebay over the weekend looking at cheap Curtis controllers though.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

He asked for a log from the controller, so I popped in a new fuse this morning, plugged in the laptop and started the logger. Turned on the key, and the damn thing started up normally. Of course. 

errant moisture on a control board? Seems weird though that it happened after a week of no rain, and after already driving 10 miles that morning. Random electronics weirdness? I'm a mechanical guy, so this seems likely to me. 

So it blew the fuse twice on the initial incident before I called for a tow. And it blew again the next day when I was doing a little troubleshooting at home. 5 days later it starts up fine. I drove it up and down the block without issue, so I dunno. fixd? Dare i trust it now? Maybe I'll just drive it to pick the kids up for a while, and not to school in the mornings so it won't really matter if it dies.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Drove fine this morning. I guess I've got to give things a week grace period before I worry about it, haha. I feel bad for pestering Ives now... 

only thing I can think of is that somehow having the batteries at a low SOC affected it. It was the first time in a long time that I'd been down below 50% SOC (at ~30% at the time of incident, though the voltage was fine) and it started working after it was charged up again. Could be coincidence, but I think I'll take the batteries down to 30% again this week and see if it replicates.

oh, and the MiniBMS board that was sporadically alarming when moist is now fully dead all the time (no lights red or green, and open circuit on the alarm). I'm going to replace it and plug the alarm back in before I venture below 50% SOC. you know, just to be safe and all.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

so, uh, everything is not fine. The internal fan for the controller is not working now. I'm going to shut up now until I have it all figured out. I'll report back in a week or two.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

boxed it up and shipped it out. The empty space under the hood...


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I got the controller back, turns out the fan shorted internally. He repaired it, cleaned everything up and re-tested it, everything is in good shape. 

But I have not put it in the car yet. And am not going to. I've made the hard decision to move on from the Saturn, I just don't have the time I need to make it into what I want it to be. I'm going to pull all the E-parts out and have it towed out of here later this week. A sad day to be sure.

But the reality is the car is 20 years old and falling apart. It fills up with water when it rains, and the 12v electrical system is pretty messed up. I'm going to keep the E-parts for the time being while I consider my options, I'd love to pick up another project in a year or two, but I don't know if it's worth hanging on to all the EV parts for that long hoping I get to do this again.

In the meantime, I couldn't pass up a deal on the Spark EV. At Zero down and $139/month it's a bargain. Plus I get the state $2500 rebate, so out of pocket costs over 3 years is only $2500! I paid almost that much for my PFC30, lol.

so here it is, brought it home on Sunday.










It's everything I tried to build with the Saturn. Wickedly quick (0-60 in 7.2, but it feels even faster seat of the pants), twice the range of the Saturn, and it has air conditioning! I love it so far. In my commute this morning (preheated while plugged in, then heater for 5 miles with the kids to school, no heater 5 miles home) it averaged 5.1 mi/kWh over 10.0 miles. That's 200Wh/mi! The Saturn did the same commute at around 280Wh/mi with no heater usage for reference.

Anyway, I loved the Saturn, the hours in the garage with my kids were priceless. I'm very proud of the car and am glad I took on the project. But it's time to move on.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

When I saw how much used leafs were going for (and the cost of batteries/etc), the "budget" conversion stopped making sense. I still have a motorcycle project to finish though, but it is lagging pretty hard. There will of course be good bargains in the salvage yard for hobbyists and etc, so it is doable for a car you want to convert without a huge cash outlay, or with.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If that Spark deal was available here in Canada I would have been all over it! But alas...The lease wouldn't work for me either as it no doubt has too few miles per year without penalty. But glad you're set up with a working EV, either way! Keep the conversion stuff for a classic you will do later- or sell it to someone converting one!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Moltenmetal said:


> If that Spark deal was available here in Canada I would have been all over it! But alas...The lease wouldn't work for me either as it no doubt has too few miles per year without penalty. But glad you're set up with a working EV, either way! Keep the conversion stuff for a classic you will do later- or sell it to someone converting one!


Yeah, I'm set up on a 10k/year lease which should be about right. I drive ~35 miles/day M-F, and usually less on weekends (either local around town stuff, or I take a long range car of which we own several). You can of course get more mileage for a bit more money on a lease if you want. This is my first ever lease, I'd never considered it before. But in this case it's such a bargain it seemed like a no brainer.

I'd love to do another car down the road, my dream would be a 65+ Corvair convertible.  I think that would be a sweet conversion, beautiful classic. drop in a Warp9 on a powerglide, tons of room for batteries. Or more likely, pick up an already converted Miata to rebuild/upgrade. We had a Miata pre-kids, I really like those cars. But either of those would be a project for someone with a LOT more free time than I have these days...


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