# EMRAX motors



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Yagi-san said:


> Hi EV fans,
> 
> I have a question, and I think you might know it better than me. What do you think about that EMrax motors for EV?
> http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/emrax-motors.html
> ...


Hi Yagi,

I think this motor is over your head....no offense intended. The Zilla and Shiva are DC series motor controllers and the motor in question is an AC motor. As such, it should be left for more advanced EV projects having deep pockets and advanced skills.

I think the only successful EV (surface vehicle) to use this motor has been an university race team. It can be done, but isn't easy or cheap 

Regards,

major


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That motor is a PMAC motor.... and requires one inverter per motor. There's really no way around this.

Zilla and Shiva are both Dc controllers and will not work with those motors.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

@major: there is no offense! I am thankful for any information. What do you think, it would be over my head? In which meaning (power, cost, anything else...)!

Ok, which AC controllers would be equivalent to Zilla 2k or Shiva? 1500-2000 Amps?!

Yagi


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, technically, you divide that by 4 (you need one controller for each motor), and get 500A per motor.

Contact Emrax about their recommendation first.

Other PMAC controllers:
Sevcon
Rinehart Motion Systems
Piktronix
Kelly


You know these motors are fairly expensive right?.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

I get info. that one motor is around 3.000€, and it could use 1 controler for 2 motors. The company (Enstroj) is 15km from my home, so I'll visit them maybe.
The question is, if it would be powerful enough for my ferformance wish.
2 Emrax motors can produce around 500Nm, and at the 4000rpm, is more than 200kW (Am I wrong) ?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You might be able to use one controller for two motors if they physically match and lock the motors together precicely.... something I think Enstroj would have to do for you.

They're also outrunner motors... the outside of the motor is what spins.... so you'll have to think about that.

Go talk to em, see what they say (and come back and share your findings)


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

frodus said:


> You might be able to use one controller for two motors if they physically match and lock the motors together precicely.... something I think Enstroj would have to do for you.
> 
> They're also outrunner motors... the outside of the motor is what spins.... so you'll have to think about that.
> 
> Go talk to em, see what they say (and come back and share your findings)



OK, I will ! I'll report after get some information's from Enstroj!


Thanks for now,


Yagi-san


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow very interesting motors. I'd be keen to know if they offer that reduction gearbox design. That with a low voltage motor and you could pair them with Curtis controllers for compact drive system!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You can't pair them with Curtis.

Curtis is Induction only. These are PMAC.


Neither one of you have any idea what kind of motor goes with what type of controller..... smh


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## EVCan (Oct 11, 2012)

Specs are given at 20°C. Careful when comparing with other AC motor manufacturer (EVO, TM4, UQM...). Their specs are usually given at 55°C to 65°C. 

That kind of cooling may is easly possible in a plane (it is where these EMRAX motors are generally used), but a lot less common in automotive.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

My apologies Frodus for my stupidity offending you or anyone else.

I understood a PMAC stator is almost the same as an induction stator and either can be controlled by an AC controller with some reprogramming. Please help us both, how are they so different please sir?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Please help us both, how are they so different please sir?





tylerwatts said:


> some reprogramming


You've answered your own question. Control algorithms very different. Who does the programming?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ah you said VERY different. I've only bean lead to believe it is marginal reprogramming. I guess it might have been sales bs leading me on. But to be thorough, 

1: Curtis controllers are programmable right? Completely or not enough for different AC motor types?
2: Assuming one knows what to do, and the controller allows it, why else couldn't a Curtis be programmed for a PMAC controller?

Thanks for the assistance


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> My apologies Frodus for my stupidity offending you or anyone else.


Nah, it gave me a laugh...

BLDC/PMAC motors are Synchronous machines.
AC Induction motors are Asynchronous machines.

Both 3-phase, but they both use different control algorithms and feedback. BLDC/PMAC need position feedback. AC Induction only need speed feedback. 

SOME PMAC/BLDC controllers also have algorithms inside that allow them to also drive induction motors, but don't assume. You need to check the datasheet on a specific controller. IIRC, Rinehart and Sevcon can do that, not sure about Kelly and Piktronic.

I just know a lot about the Curtis because I own one and I resell them.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> 1: Curtis controllers are programmable right? Completely or not enough for different AC motor types?
> 2: Assuming one knows what to do, and the controller allows it, why else couldn't a Curtis be programmed for a PMAC controller?


1) Programmable as far as IO and overall control of the induction motor (ramp rates, CAN comm, basic industrial logic), but not deep enough for PMAC. They don't even have the right encoder input. They only have a speed sensor input. You need position.
2) See #1.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Ah you said VERY different. I've only bean lead to believe it is marginal reprogramming. I guess it might have been sales bs leading me on. But to be thorough,
> 
> 1: Curtis controllers are programmable right? Completely or not enough for different AC motor types?
> 2: Assuming one knows what to do, and the controller allows it, why else couldn't a Curtis be programmed for a PMAC controller?
> ...


Only Curtis can get in that deep. If you're not Curtis, all you can do is change parameters or add top level application specific program with the VCL. I don't know anybody that can go in and change, say, to use Hall feedback instead of encoder, let alone alter the FOC code. Pull the 1238 manual off line and read it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ah ok thanks Frodus. So only some controllers allow that reprogramming. I simply thought that if one could program the controller they could fully reprogram it. A poor assumption, I admit!

Yagi-San

Another controller I'm told can be programmed for any AC motor type and possibly tether multiple controllers and seems well matched in power output is the ScottDrive controller from New Zealand.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Major too! You guys both replied while I was typing/proof reading!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Most don't allow that level. That level is within the firmware of that device. I seriously doubt you as an end user would be allowed that access, because in many cases, that is Intellectual Property of the company selling the controller.

Scottdrive may actually have built it for both, but I doubt they'll release the code for you to modify/write yourself.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Just noticed this controller will work with PMAC and has very good looking power output.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Don't think I would go with sensorless vector control if I were going to spend huge amounts of money on an expensive motor. Low speed performance isn't that great, and will just add to the perception that AC lacks good performance.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

tylerwatts said:


> Just noticed this controller will work with PMAC and has very good looking power output.


Any idea of price?


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

I found out very interesting, this one:
http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen4-size-10.aspx

...for AC motors. Does anybody have info about a price ?


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

We used two Emrax motors in a racecar (www.lessiusracingteam.eu) in a combination with two Unitek Bamocar D3 controllers. These controllers are about 2700 euro's a piece if I'm not mistaking.

Emrax only gives you a warranty on the motors when they are used with certain controllers (e.g. Piktronik, Unitek, ..). 

Finding out the right settings for the motors can be difficult, but as Unitek has already tested Emrax motors with their controllers you can contact them for "start figures" to at least get the motors up and running. Then you'd have to tweak to get the motors running perfectly.

Maximum current that's needed for these motors is 2xx amps, not that much, but the voltage that you need to get the desired speed can be a problem for some builds. A 500V batterypack is a huge difference with a 96V batterypack used with most forklift motors.

200km/h is probably going to be a big problem. Just calculate your drivetrain transmission ratio, you know the max. rpm of the Emrax' and then you know your theoretical maximum speed. What could work is putting two Emrax' in series and then use a gearbox. That way you have a "motor" capable of delivering 160kW and 440Nm, more than enough I would think. And offcourse it'll be strong enough to give you a decent topspeed.

More info on the controllers: http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/controllers.html


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

@Theredone51: thank you for that reply.

I think, that Emrax would work well with Sevcon controller, it's also listed on their web page as one of the controllers they use.
But I don't know, what is the high Amps for that controllers. In my proj. I would use 360-370V!

One question: would it be possible, to use more than 2 motors (Emrax), connected in series (3 or 4) and on original gearbox RWD. I am not sure, that 160kW and 440Nm would give me performance I would like... !


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

If you know the specifications of the old drivetrain you can calculate the different resistances (drag, air friction, etc.) and then you can calculate your theoretical topspeed and acceleration. 

Better than "thinking it is not enough".

Regarding 3 or more, you'd have to contact Emrax. Because this would mean a lot more power on the connections/axles in between the Emraxes, maybe overloading them.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

I do not have knowledge to calculate a Vmax. and acceleration. My donor car would be a Toyota MR-2 mkII !
I will ask enstroj about serial connection more than 2 motors!

Regards, Yagi


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## Theredone51 (Oct 15, 2011)

Toyota MR2 has a Cd value of 0.31. According to my calculations you should have enough power to get a topspeed of 200km/h with two Emrax motors in series. Provided your transmission has the right ratio.

The sprint from 0-100km/h in 5 seconds could also be possible, again, depending on the gearratio's and, very imporatantly, the total weight of the car including batteries and such.

If you know the gearratio's you want to use and you have an idea about the weight of the components you plan on using, together with the car, you can calculate your acceleration.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Just get one LARGER motor, you'll be much happier than having to mess with 2-3-4 different motors. Emrax are expensive, but they'll be even more expensive if you get them to hook up more than one motor, as this is custom.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

frodus said:


> Just get one LARGER motor, you'll be much happier than having to mess with 2-3-4 different motors. Emrax are expensive, but they'll be even more expensive if you get them to hook up more than one motor, as this is custom.



It might be a more difficult with 4 motors. But a AWD option, with aprox. 240kW and +600Nm and all that for just around 48kg! Even with only 2 motors on rear axle it might be fun. But in case with 4 motors, the question is gearbox...no gearbox lower maximum speed, right? For batteries something as light as possible for minimum of +37kWh (more like closer to +50kWh pack)!


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

I also thought uf using this motor in the low voltage version (120V).

There is a list of controllers for their motors on their website:
http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/controllers.html
I would go for the Bamocar D3 if you live in continental Europe (Eur 3450 according to Unitek website- but difficult to get), the Sevcon Gen4 size 8 (expensive Eur 5900, can be bought at http://www.hsct.nl/ , sevcon otherwise only sells to OEM) does not have a CE mark/EMC yet and the Piktronik SAC41 is quite big and heavy - but it was designed especially for Emrax motors (Piktronik and Emrax were former partners).
Entroj is also developping an own controller which will come out soon.

I found the motor also a little weak for my car (better for motorbike) and went for Heiko Flecks air cooled AC Motor from Germany (ca. Eur 2800, see image) instead of 2 emrax motors (too complicated, additional sources for difficulties/failure). 
Heiko Flecks motor can by run with Curtis 1238-7601 controller (ca. Eur 2200) and has 70/44KW, 70Kg (but no additional weight from water cooling devices which is also an additional failure source), CE-mark and it is especially designed for EV-Conversions - much cheaper also than Emrax/Bamocar combination. 
The gearbox connection plate can be custom made to fit your car- saves weight of additional motor/gearbox adpater.
http://fleck-machines.de/


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks for reply!

I think one of this Heiko Flecks motors would be way too weak for my performance expectations. 
I know It would be way easier with DC motor like Warp or Kostov. But they are havier, no way for AWD, But powerful enough !

Which one (1) AC motor would be in the same power rang as Warp / Kostov 11" ?


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Heiko used this motor to power a Porsche Boxster (and a BMW z3), which runs 180km/h, without using the gearbox! 
It is stronger than any Kostov Motor.
Please keep in mind electric KW can roughly be taken by factor 3 in comparison with combustion engines concerning performance because you have all the force (Nm) from zero rounds per minute on!
70KW electric = roughly 210KW combustion!

There are several youtube-videos on his website, see Elektroautos -> Sportwagen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tziCdVJslFs&feature=player_embedded

Another friend - who is a studied car-engineer - is using Flecks motor also in Germany (no speed limit) for a Porsche Boxster conversion. He originally intended to use a Kostov AC Motor from www.rebbl.nl (they have EMC certificate) but changed his mind.
http://eboxster.blogspot.de/

Other common european options are the water cooled engines from Eve in Italy. The also have a high-voltage controller "quantum 330" best working at 280V (same price as sevcon gen4size8).
http://www.electro-vehicles.eu/

Most (american) DC motors (all I know) dont have a CE mark/EMC and you will have problems and high costs with the authorities for licencing the car in Europe!


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

The Vmax. around 180-200km/h is interesting. But on that YT video, he didn't push on full from start, cause the 0-100km/h is 12-13s.... like Renault Dacia (little joke)  !
You might know, is it possible to connect 2 motors in serial ? Because with 2 motors it might be fun and with level of performance i am looking for!
My goal is a power 200-300kW and range 300km ( I do 320km with petrol engine and 59L of gasoline).
The price for Heiko motor is close to Emrax and in range of Warp/Kostov!

I like te performance of Lightning GT electric car and the range......also very interesting is EV GT-40 car! Both cars have under 5s 0-100km/h and range more than 200km ! 

Cheers to Wien,

Yagi


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Heiko used a zapi 850amps controller which has some difficulties and was not set up properly when he did the video.
It made some problems and now he uses the curtis and gets even better results. Acceleration now is same and even better than with original combustion engine (I think 6-7sec).
... and only at 100V (the guy in Germany is using a 120V setup - his car will be even faster). For linking 2 engines please write him a messeage, there is an e-mail adress on his website.

But: Dont think so much about kw, for speed you need high voltage!
Newer heard of a ev-conversion with 300kw... this would be a e-dragster!

Here the eve quantum 330 from eve is the best controller (i.e. see http://www.evalbum.com/4489).
Another eve high-speed layout http://www.evz3.com/ using australian controller wavesculptor200 (quantum330 was not yet on market then) - but low range.

Another intersesting link for you: http://www.rimac-automobili.com/ and
http://www.evdrive.com/products/evd-motor-controller/

You cannot have all, if you have high voltage (high speed) you will have lower range.
In any case (high range, high speed) you will need lots of battery packs which cause weight (and costs)- and weight then reduces speed and range. It is a compromise you will need to find - this is the challenge of ev-conversions!
On my blog-site (see link below) you will find 2 usefull books (can be bought at amazon) which will help you and explain all these issues.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

A. Rimac I saw and I know for the company. He is near to Zagreb, aprox. 140km from Ljubljana, where I live.
A 300kW electric car and it is not a dragster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcUV_UCpHy4

I know all about weight and effect on speed and acceleration. for batteries and for 300km range and 370V is around 380kg and +28,000€ (only batteries) !


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

"Supercar" as in video or dragster, not much difference ;-)

Why not buy a (used) tesla for that money - it has 185kw as far as I know and is a reliable machine from ca. Eur 65.000 on. http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=226396224&cd=634935232830000000&asrc=st%7cs
You will end up with more in DIY...

Not also batteries are expensive but all componentes for high voltage layout (controller, charger, dc/dc converter, contractors, etc.) and there is usually a much stricter norm concerning safety. 

But why do you want to take emrax motors in the first place then? They have 35kw max (only), if you take 2 you have same power as with 1 Fleck motor... and the emrax motors a designed for leightweight aircrafts - not heavy ev-conersions with lots of batteries...


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

Oh, come on mate, there is a huge difference in dragster or supercar?!

I am not dcecided yet, about motor. Emrax is one of option, they are 14km from my home and they are super light!

Tesla is not much in case, cause I have other plans on my project car!

Is possible to connect 2 Fleck motors in serial? For 4 motors it would be mission impossible, right!
I would solve more or less everything with 1 (maybe 2) DC motors and 64kWh !


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Send Heiko a message concerning 2 motors at [email protected]

Each motor is manufactured individually at http://www.schwarz-elektromotoren.de/ according to his plans - so why not get 1 high-voltage wired motor there? 

If you want water cooled - talk to eve, they also produce individual motors.

Another option from UK is http://www.yasamotors.com/ or evo AFM140 (see attachement)
and from Germany cp-motors http://www.cpmotors.eu/elektromotoren/rftr-10-bis-80-kw/ - same leightweight principle as emrax but designed for road vehicles.

Emrax is said to be very noisy also...


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

... if money is not so much an issue and you have a large budget (like here http://www.evalbum.com/1206 ) check swiss "brusa" components & motors for high voltage layout http://www.brusa.biz/ up to 250kw, ca. 55KG!
They give discounts to DIY-people.


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

Peterhase said:


> ... if money is not so much an issue and you have a large budget (like here http://www.evalbum.com/1206 ) check swiss "brusa" components & motors for high voltage layout http://www.brusa.biz/ up to 250kw, ca. 55KG!
> They give discounts to DIY-people.



Those BRUSA components seems very interesting. Huh, money is always an issue  !
Do you have any price list from BRUSA (or I will send them an e-mail). Because I think it would be possible to reach my goal with their system.

The company like they are, I haven't hear for them till now. If you have any similar web page, please feel free to share.... !


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

Brusa is best- especially the chargers are very common with DIY projects. 
In US brusa is sold via www.metricmind.com they have some prices on their website (for orientation). I got offered from brusa directly motor HSM 6.17.12 for Eur 8.300 and controller DMC 524 AC for Eur 6.250 last year - they are very friendly and quick in replies.

Brusa also had a clearance sale at the end of the year...

Swiss Mes-Dea http://www.cebi.com might also be an option for you (their vacuum pumps are very common with DIY projects), you can find a comparison table on my blog site: 
http://tr6-electric.blogspot.co.at/2012/03/das-angepeilte-ziel-fur-den-tr6.html

Also german Paragon: http://www.paragon.ag/en/startseite/produkte/elektromobility/


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## Yagi-san (Jan 2, 2013)

Don't know why to order from States, if they are from Switzerland... !
Especially the powerful motor with strong controller.....hm, interesting!

Thank you for reply and sharing the informations....


Regards, Yagi


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

No, no need to order from US- prices are ment just for your orientation, from Switzerland of course cheaper...

This Jaguar E-Type was converted with brusa components for Windreich AG: http://www.classicandsportscar.com/...sports-car-of-the-future-is-the-jaguar-e-type

The company who did the project is www.elektroporsche.de , you might want to consider a professional company like them for your high voltage layout, they have all the knowledge concerning safety, licencing, etc.
Also www.turn-e.de in Munich.

Brusa also delivers consulting service...

I am sure Heiko Fleck would also do a conversion for you using brusa components - but he is not much friend of high voltage systems (too dangerous according to him).


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Peterhase said:


> I also thought uf using this motor in the low voltage version (120V).
> 
> There is a list of controllers for their motors on their website:
> http://www.enstroj.si/Electric-products/controllers.html
> ...


Hi there

I must say, Heiko goes around...
I currently have your motors middle brother in my car. A 28kW version, 75V per phase, 160Nm at 3000rpm. My car: http://www.evalbum.com/4534
I also use Zapi Ace5 120V 750A controller with torque software. In the beginning it was difficult to setup, but when i figured what settings mean the car drives smooth. I cant seem to burn rubber though. Controller has some software protection to limit torque 0,5s from start. I guess it is the remainder from forklift days . Oh and regen is also very smooth. I even drove on icy (snowy) road and it didnt lock the wheels. 

It behaves excellent up to 120km/h. 9s to 100km/h. Then at 4000rpm it looses torque. Its the gearbox, i have to get xedos 6 which has longer 5th gear. I expect 150km/h which is enough on our highways.

I dont think 400V HV belongs to DIY vehicle. Very dangerous voltage. I got bitten by my 130VDC battery and it still makes my skin crawl! Also very expensive components. If i chose this way, i would definitely take EMRAX LC twinpack, directly to BMW 325 driveshaft and single bamo D3 drive. Saves some space and since rotors are locked together you dont need complex mechanisms. Together they would see (!) cca 160kW. What they would put out i dont know, but i am sure you would feel it . 

A


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi arber333

Been looking through your website, very nice conversion, from what I can gleen from the pictures. I am very interested to ask what performance you have been getting from that motor please. You have the original gearbox in your conversion also, what gears have you found yourself using? Very nice choice of car also. Did I understand your 2013 posts that you are adding mroe cells. Is this for capacity or voltage increase? That controller seems capable of high currents.

May I ask where you got that controller from in the EU please? I am in teh UK, and finding parts other than DC or Curtis seems difficult, then I have to pay import costs (small fortune!)

Sorry for the questions but I'm english speaking and can't understand your website and don't get along well with Google translate.

Thanks!


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

arber333 said:


> I dont think 400V HV belongs to DIY vehicle. Very dangerous voltage. I got bitten by my 130VDC battery and it still makes my skin crawl!


I completely share your opinion, nevertheless I think brusa is more adequate and elaborate for high-voltage roadcar ev-conversions.
Another option is the Rebbl workshop in Holland, they also offer Soliton Controllers and Netgain/Kostov DC motors with European licence: www.rebbl.com

Another nice motor-controller combo is from german Vectopower (Aradex) , see attached broschure, they can configure it also individually to your needs.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wrote to Estroj regarding their EMRAX motors, very good looking test results! Their power density seems impressive, and with Siemens testing too!

I also attach their very impressive current price list, and the PDF for the recommended Sevcon controller.

Peterhase

What is the controller you use in your vehicle please? do you have links to its specification please?

Thank you


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

tylerwatts said:


> Hi arber333
> 
> Been looking through your website, very nice conversion, from what I can gleen from the pictures. I am very interested to ask what performance you have been getting from that motor please. You have the original gearbox in your conversion also, what gears have you found yourself using? Very nice choice of car also. Did I understand your 2013 posts that you are adding mroe cells. Is this for capacity or voltage increase? That controller seems capable of high currents.
> 
> ...


Motor is quite powerfull. From 0 to 100km/h is cca 9s! I take off using 2nd and cycle trough gears untill 4th at 100km/h. Then i change to 5th to 120 and here torque falls off. Car is accelerating slowly to 130 but then i ran out of road. 
Lately however i found out a setting in Zapi menu "SAT voltage frequency" I figure this is saturation frequency of rotor. I now changed it to 160hz. After running motor i noticed v/hz comes up to 100% later. So motor should pull to higher speed now i hope. Maybe transmission is not to be blamed for everything.
I have to get tachometer working. This will tell me when it is optimal to shift. Now i do it with speedometer but it is difficult as you cant "hear" the motor revs.

I went back to the workshop because my battery box was too low to ground. It was dangerous. Also i found some phantom voltage from main + to chassis ground. I still have to rectify this.

Yes i am lazy, i still have to translate my website to english. I used it mainly to keep a journal for the technical report for TUV.

I got my ACe5 from Proteuselectric in Muggia Italy. It is just across Slovenian border.

A


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> Peterhase
> 
> What is the controller you use in your vehicle please? do you have links to its specification please?
> 
> Thank you


I will use an e-box from German E-Car-Tech www.e-car-tech.de/ .
They are the European importer for Curtis-components so their e-box will contain the curtis 1238R-7601 controller at 650Amps and 115V (see 
http://curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=ProductsGrid.ACMotorControllers

http://www.evalbum.com/4213 shows the whole layout of the conversion.


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## Peterhase (Mar 26, 2012)

tylerwatts said:


> May I ask where you got that controller from in the EU please? I am in teh UK, and finding parts other than DC or Curtis seems difficult, then I have to pay import costs (small fortune!)
> 
> Thanks!


I hope you know, that you dont pay import tax for goods from the EU... (still). 

These guys are the German importers for Zapi Controllers and also Zivan Chargers http://www.atech-antriebstechnik.de/
Very reliable company and english-speaking.

P.S. Heiko Flecks motor is working better / more reliable with the curtis controller than the zapi. Although more Amps on paper (zapi 850Amps max, curtis 650amps max) the results are quite similar in reality.


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

I would belive that curtis can be as powerful as ACe5, but this is primarily because ACe5 cant be setup exactly on motor specification. It doesnt have automatic setup as curtis has. But if someone would setup my motor-controller on dynamometer i belive results would be spectacular. 
For now i must say i have smooth start and motor pulls constantly. Heiko had some problems with jerky starts and low speed amps. Now with current torque software i must say this is history. Even the regen feels naturaly. I also belive ACe5 can be bought for pretty much the same price as curtis - in italy of course.

A


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi Arber333

Do you know what rpm your motor loses torque? What is the spec of the Heiko Flecks motor please? The website linked earlier in the thread is in a foreign language and does not show much information from what I can see.

Does anybody have a spec sheet for the Flecks motor/s? And the dimensions. it seems they perform rather well!


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Yes as i said i am currently working on improving my car. This site was my worklog and is in Slovenian language. After i am satisfied with my car i will publish alternate site in english .

Yes my motor has max power cca 50kW at 75V per phase and 450A! Here is the graph: http://mazdamx3ev.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/z3_2neu.pdf

Theese are the measurements for 20kW motor. It has the same diameter, but is 40mm shorter than mine. http://mazdamx3ev.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/motordaten-20kw-mac39fzeichnungen.pdf

You may notice i use it with 500A for now and it feels as V6 before conversion. However i will add amps in steps of 50A untill 700A so that i see how the motor will fare. 
Motor has temp protection diode and i set it to cutoff torque at 160°C. 
Actual torque should now be 160Nm up to 3000rpm, after that it falls off. At 3500rpm you are somewhat below the knee but in reality can still have enough power for good acceleration. 
I chose this motor because i intend to drive at highway speeds 110km/h or 120km/h. At that speed the power required is cca 20kW the rest is to climb some hills or overtake trucks.

A


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you for the data! Seems we want the same performance from our vehicles. That motor sounds pretty good. if it can handle that many amps it is very good. That is a high temperature though! Is the motor liquid cooled or air?

one thing I am looking at is converting my air cooled motors to liquid cooling.


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Dont try to change air cooled motor to water cooling. It is usless and heavy. Rather you find a company to manufacture a new liquid cooled motor per your specs. It will be better and lighter cca 20%. 

My motor used to warm up a lot and i had 140° limit. After i set it up i can drive at 100km/h and temperature is cca 85°C. It all depends at what rpm. From 3000rpm up there is enough cooling. I persume city driving would heat it up more. 
I must say the fin casing looks outdated (very Nikola Tesla) but it functions perfectly to enlarge surface for cooling. 

Where are you from? UK? You have a similar motor there: http://www.everything-ev.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65_77_97 though less constant power.

A


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Arbor

I have seen everything ev products, they are custom wound industrial motors, and under size. I would rewind a second hand motor for more power and less cost rather.

140C is high temperature, how I'd you decide this was ok? This s why I am looking at liquid cooling. Alternatively I'm thinking about charged air cooling. That is using AC to cool the air going through the motor. And thinking about ways to get the cooling through the windings as hot spots are the biggest risk/concern I have.

There are plenty options of motors in Europe so this should not be a concern. I am more keen to find a good controller, and there is not a lot of press or knowledge that I know of in Western Europe about the fantastic looking products that appear widely available in Eastern Europe. I am trying to do a lot of research right now. I am keen also to see the launch of the Estroj controller designed for their very impressive motors.


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Please if you find some good inverter design let me know. I found 100kW HV inverters very expensive. The least i found Unitek Bamo D3 cca 3k€. Everything similar in that range was over 5k€. Thats why i decided to go for mosfet low voltage Zapi ACe5. 

I find 160°C good temperature, since the class F lacquer has melting point of 220°C. I dont find the motor overheating at all. It was only at the beginning, when it wasnt set up right. 

My motor has forced air cooling. It does the job. What i would do next would be some evaporative cooling. Simple windshield nozzles to spray water on the casing should do. Could wire it to temp switch to spray only when temp would go over 120°C. 

My motor is IP65 the way i want it. We get lots of snow in Slovenia and so our roads are salted. I cant imagine using DC motor with open commutator!!! Even now whole underside is covered with thin white dust. I even had a gas pedal (hall sensor) malfunction because of moisture.

I hope i will get my hands on Emrax motor soon. I think of 120V version with Sevcon controller. It would be very light setup. Plenty of weight available for batteries. Plenty of torque too .

Arber


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes the 120V motor will be strong and light. Excellent torque and up to 100kW potential power output though your controller won't achieve that.

PS, I'm hoping the Estroj AC controller will be well priced. The main driver for these costs is they use common internal components, at least if you want quality controllers.

Otherwise there is the option to alter an industrial controller as CTS Casemod has done, or build your own like Srewastaj (hope that is spelt correctly...) and using an open source code. The Open Revolt team have an AC design apparently but I have not found much info about it.


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## Marko (Oct 29, 2014)

Hello guys

Does anybody have emrax motor in aplication. Yagi did you finished your ev?


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