# High voltage DC motors



## Wattsthis (May 25, 2008)

Who makes the highest voltage DC motors for EVs?

I know some list the WarP motors at up to 192 volt systems. The NetGain has 72 volts for testing stats.

Is a 192 volts the highest we have for conversions?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Wattsthis said:


> Who makes the highest voltage DC motors for EVs?
> 
> I know some list the WarP motors at up to 192 volt systems. The NetGain has 72 volts for testing stats.
> 
> Is a 192 volts the highest we have for conversions?


Hm, voltage isn't everything and the recommendations seems to be that you shouldn't go higher than 170 Volts for the WarP 9" or 160 Volts for the ADC FB1-4001A, so even if there are people going up to 192 Volts on their WarPs you should be aware of that you can arc the motor, causing severe damage to it and possibly killing ot for good.

If you want high performance, I think two motors is a better path to choose, like this:

http://evcl.com/914/

But if you really ARE aiming for 192 Volts it seems the WarP 9" can handle it better (it has something to do with the angle of the brushes if I'm not totally confused), but keep a spare motor ready in the garage...

Otherwise AC-motors are usually running at higher voltages. That doesn't mean that they're necessarily stronger just because of that. The power you get out is the product of voltage and amps, and if the amps is lower you might still get less power out no matter voltage.

But as I said, if I'd ever aim for performance and we're talking DC I'd go for two motors rather than risking to arc the poor thing.


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## Wattsthis (May 25, 2008)

Thank you very much.

I've read about the brush arcing problem before. I wonder if the newer brushless / perm magnet DC motors have that problem sorted out and if they run on higher voltage. For that matter I wonder how they stack up to AC motors.

In the end if 170 is the limit for sane DC operation then that will be the limit and what I'll shoot for in a kit or piece mill set up.

AC, to me, is a case of diminishing returns until pricing comes down. I can see dropping over 50% of total investment on batteries but adding AC just drives it out of reality for me. Everything is a trade off and I'm still in the "planning my trade offs" mode.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Wattsthis said:


> In the end if 170 is the limit for sane DC operation then that will be the limit and what I'll shoot for in a kit or piece mill set up.
> 
> AC, to me, is a case of diminishing returns until pricing comes down. I can see dropping over 50% of total investment on batteries but adding AC just drives it out of reality for me. Everything is a trade off and I'm still in the "planning my trade offs" mode.


I'm in the same phase; reading, thinking, planning, and from what I've read 120-144 Volts will be more than enough for me, but that depends on the goals you have of course. I'm planning on a commuting vehicle with decent performance and not a racer so if it can manage to get 0-100 km/h (0-60 mph) in not too much above 10 seconds I'm happy, or at least satisfied. Also, lower Voltage will mainly limit the top speed rather than the snappiness of the car, so I think I can live with playing it safe.

I agree about the AC. Both AC and Lithium is post-poned until the prices drop, so for me it's DC and led for now. With led also comes the handicap that the more current you burn, the less the range will be so burning away at the red lights to be first out on the strip is probably a no-no anyway, another reason why I don't think there's any point in trying to maximize the voltage and risking the motor.

But that's from MY perspective and I'm just trying to get to work and back. Since I don't know about your goals this might be completely wrong advice to you.


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## Wattsthis (May 25, 2008)

Thank you for your reply.

No, that makes perfectly good since on what youre doing and saying.

I'm pushing /researching the voltage envelope because I know that higher voltage would translate into less amperage requirement to reach target watts/hp. There are deminishing returns to everything but the principle is still the same for volts/amps. Raise either one of these and you can still hit target watts. I look at things differently and for this I see exceeding the bottom line for improved drivability, equipment longivity, and hopefully range. I'm not wanting to be able to blow the doors off of other drivers but I am wanting to push a comfortable vehical about 60 - 80 miles and up to 60 mph when needed. I'm not looking at the costs necessarily but the result. Lithiums seems the way to go for me and the family for several reason and I'm willing to invest in such a project over the long haul.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Wattsthis said:


> I'm pushing /researching the voltage envelope because I know that higher voltage would translate into less amperage requirement to reach target watts/hp.


Then perhaps what you want is what I'm aiming at as well; running the motor at specified 120-160 Volts but having a battery pack at 200-300 Volts and using a Zilla Z1K-HV for stepping down the voltage. It SHOULD work, but just to be on the safe side I've asked the expertise in the forum that I won't run into problems with that approach in this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14161

The main reason for this approach is that with a Z1K-HV I can use anything from 120 to 375 Volts in the battery pack and just add batteries as I see fit since the controller can convert it down for the motor. The other approach would be to use a Curtis 1231C or Zilla Z1K-LV and add batteries in parallel, but then I get very limited in what I can use since I must make sure that the total Voltage of the pack is within a very limited range.

For the Z1K-LV that would be approximately between 120-156 Volts (not sure what the limits are for the Curtis controller), which would mean, for example, 10-13 or 20, 22, 24, 26 or 30, 33, 36, 39 (and so on) 12 Volt batteries. With a Z1K-HV I can use anything from 10 to 31 batteries (and 31 will probably be too heavy anyway), all numbers are ok. Much easier. 

Only problem is that all Zilla-controllers are sold out and has been for a while. I hope that changes before I can start converting (hopefully this fall).


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## Wattsthis (May 25, 2008)

Thank you for your input.

The theory is sound. High voltage low amps into lower voltage higher amps. You do have losses as in anything / anytime you manipulate any electrical field or current. A buck converter would be the way to go - never heard of it until now. 

The only "if" that remains is the equipment to accomplish this task. For the most part controller and converter design focuses on "less is more".

If Zilla controllers will do this and if losses are acceptable and if you can get measurable results and if the motor can digest the controller output, you have an excellent solution for increasing range in an EV!

Is anyone working on PWM in the controller field? This also has potential since it "cycles" the voltage and current to the motor in a simple form syphoning electrical charge as demand is adjusted instead of continuous flow. PWM was the break through for electric trolling motors way back in the day....when. I'm new so this might be way outdated.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Wattsthis said:


> If Zilla controllers will do this and if losses are acceptable and if you can get measurable results and if the motor can digest the controller output, you have an excellent solution for increasing range in an EV!


Well, you still need a controller to be able to run at anything else but "full dead stop" and "full speed ahead", which will result in a very jerky and uncomfortable ride. The only main difference of Z1K-HV compared to Z1K-LV, Curtis 1231C and most other controllers is that Z1K-HV can handle seriously higher input voltage. On the motor side they behave more or less comparable and I dare say the efficiency is pretty much the same as well.

So the main difference going for the Z1K-HV is that you can go up to almost twice the Voltage on the battery pack and that the conversion cost will go up with a fair amount of bucks since the HV-version is pretty expensive.

I haven't found a charger that goes with that solution as well, but then I haven't really found any charger that I actually like (no matter the Voltage) or looked very hard, really.


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## Wattsthis (May 25, 2008)

Thank you for your input.

I will research that Zilla controller.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

I really don't see too much advantage of going higher voltage on the battery side, it would be just as easy to use higher Ah 6V batteries. You would have to compare the voltage step down efficiency to the losses in the batteries with higher currents (though the A/Ah would be the same so peukert's wouldn't change).


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

mattW said:


> I really don't see too much advantage of going higher voltage on the battery side, it would be just as easy to use higher Ah 6V batteries. You would have to compare the voltage step down efficiency to the losses in the batteries with higher currents (though the A/Ah would be the same so peukert's wouldn't change).


The main advantage as I see it is that I can pick more or less any kind of battery and since for example Trojan batteries seem to be a bit tricky to get hold of over here I might have to go for what's accessable. Otherwise I'm afraid that the shipping cost might hit hard on top of the rest of the conversion cost. Another nice feature is that there will be less losses in the cabling, although that can always be solved by using better cables, of course. 

But then, if I can't find a matching charger it's a dead end anyway...


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## Vinyasi (Apr 9, 2017)

*OT: [simulation of] High voltage A/C motors*

It's not necessary to feed an A/C motor high voltage in order to achieve this state.

All that's needed is the creation of a negative power factor via the _approximation_ of infinite Quality factor, namely: doing more with less; aka, more energy OUT than IN. This is accomplished due to the recognition that *time* is the ultimate source of energy along with a little creative wiring of off-the-shelf, single-phase, induction motors.

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=977097#post977097


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We are making a 600V brushless D.C. Motor at Lonestar EV Performance


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## riba2233 (Apr 29, 2015)

John Metric said:


> We are making a 600V brushless D.C. Motor at Lonestar EV Performance


Your motor is really synchronous AC motor, DC motors have brushes.


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