# Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

> this issue seems to suffer from the same niche vs mass production 

Yes every part of the vehicle I'm interested in suffers from that. It's a 'tween machine. To big for a Classic Velomobile or Cabinscooter, to small for a mini-car. Closer to a micro-car but too different to use those old style parts, if I could even find any to suit.

I am finding candidate parts in other industries. I just have to find them.

AT the moment, motors I want are used on Bikes, or Power tools or even those tread mill motors.
Same for the controllers, athough I'm having more issues with cost than availablity. What woud work is equal to about 2 or 3 DC Etek motors. And I could go with that.

The genset likely will be adpted from low cost home power units. I just need to adapt it for the voltage required.

Trannies used on LawnMowers or ATV seems possible, unless I use one motor for each front wheel.

My bigest limit seems to be a suitible CV joint. Most all automotive are too big except what is on a Zenn. I have no idea where they got thiers, and I'm affraid to ask what a Zenn CV assembly would cost.

Any ideas on that one?








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:49:49 +0100> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets> > this issue seems to suffer from the same niche vs mass production > problem where any available products are hard to get, extremely > expensive or non existent. at least turbine generators.> maybe a construction generator could be used if small in size. maybe > modified a bit to run higher rpm.> maybe you have to make one from an efficient turbocharged scooter or > motorcycle motor coupled to a rewound alternator or even AC Etek.> > if strained a bit 10kW should be possible to do small. doesn't have to > last 100000 km. only once in a while.> > Dan> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

the Zenn is a french made city car. you can presumably get parts for those.
how heavy is the vehicle and how frisky do you want it to be? the ADC6.7 
L91 can push around a 1000kg car and I figure the Etek is about half 
that power. so those two should cover a spectrum for your need for a 
small car.

as for a honda generator, it's my impression that that kind of generator 
has horrible efficiency. maybe because they run in near idle rpm where 
the efficiency of the ICE is even worse than normal. worth doing the 
math on if you intend it to run more than emergency use. I mean so bad 
that it makes an 8L big block look efficient.
maybe it can be modified slightly to go higher rpm and give more power 
at greater efficiency but might require alteration of the electronics too

Dan




> Arak Leatham wrote:
> > Yes every part of the vehicle I'm interested in suffers from that. It's a 'tween machine. To big for a Classic Velomobile or Cabinscooter, to small for a mini-car. Closer to a micro-car but too different to use those old style parts, if I could even find any to suit.
> >
> > I am finding candidate parts in other industries. I just have to find them.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

The CV's on my Insight were pretty small compared to other cars I've worked on.

Also, you might ask these guys what they used?

http://home.mira.net/~iwd/openwheeler/index.html

Trot, the hopefully helpful, fox...



> Arak Leatham <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > this issue seems to suffer from the same niche vs mass production
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Thanks for all the help!.

I'll look into these things in January.

As far as Gensets are concerned, I'll likely get something temporarilly. The best chance at the moment to improve sems to be the InfrRed, YZCrystal converter that WWU experimented with on thier Viking 23.

I'll have to contact them to find supplier contacts and designs etc. At least that concept is multifuel capible. It is compact, very light and overall that point may be the clincher. After all I can view it as only a range extender, so light weight is best for a deadweight emergency-only system.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:57:50 -0500> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> > The CV's on my Insight were pretty small compared to other cars I've worked on.> > Also, you might ask these guys what they used?> > http://home.mira.net/~iwd/openwheeler/index.html> > Trot, the hopefully helpful, fox...> >


> Arak Leatham <[email protected]> wrote:> >> > > this issue seems to suffer from the same niche vs mass production> >> > Yes every part of the vehicle I'm interested in suffers from that. It's a 'tween machine. To big for a Classic Velomobile or Cabinscooter, to small for a mini-car. Closer to a micro-car but too different to use those old style parts, if I could even find any to suit.> > > > -- > | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,> | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a> | >\_/< [email protected] \ third alternative."> > _____!
> __________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Yeah, we've been over this many times, including running the numbers.

Basically, a consumer generator is an inefficient, noisy, dirty beast. No sensors, fuel injection system, or emissions system. No catalytic converter! Much smaller than a car engine but that's not important- what is is how many hp-hr you get out of a lb of fuel. And the genny's not really better. Once you figure in the battery cycle, controller, and electric motor losses, it's gonna be worse mpg than a normal car engine. But the emissions are the kicker. It's basically on par with a 70's car engine; the emissions per gallon (or per mile) may be 10x or more worse than a 2007 car engine.

So, one has to ask what the goal is here. If a "range extender" is only used 10% of the miles but produces 10x the emissions per mile, was a "green vehicle" achieved?

It is almost certainly illegal to run the genny on the street; it's the motive power and doesn't meet emissions by any stretch of the imagination. Running it in the parking lot may hide your sin from the cops but not from your own conscience.

Danny



> ---- Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote:
> > as for a honda generator, it's my impression that that kind of generator
> > has horrible efficiency. maybe because they run in near idle rpm where
> > the efficiency of the ICE is even worse than normal. worth doing the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

So are there any similar sized Genset with all the proper bells and wistles?
I like valid complaints but I love viable solutions.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:37:11 -0600> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> > Yeah, we've been over this many times, including running the numbers.> > Basically, a consumer generator is an inefficient, noisy, dirty beast. No sensors, fuel injection system, or emissions system. No catalytic converter! Much smaller than a car engine but that's not important- what is is how many hp-hr you get out of a lb of fuel. And the genny's not really better. Once you figure in the battery cycle, controller, and electric motor losses, it's gonna be worse mpg than a normal car engine. But the emissions are the kicker. It's basically on par with a 70's car engine; the emissions per gallon (or per mile) may be 10x or more worse than a 2007 car engine.> > So, one has to ask what the goal is here. If a "range extender" is only used 10% of the miles but produces 10x the e!
missions per mile, was a "green vehicle" achieved?> > It is almost certainly illegal to run the genny on the street; it's the motive power and doesn't meet emissions by any stretch of the imagination. Running it in the parking lot may hide your sin from the cops but not from your own conscience.> > Danny> > ---- Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]> wrote: > > as for a honda generator, it's my impression that that kind of generator > > has horrible efficiency. maybe because they run in near idle rpm where > > the efficiency of the ICE is even worse than normal. worth doing the > > math on if you intend it to run more than emergency use. I mean so bad > > that it makes an 8L big block look efficient.> > maybe it can be modified slightly to go higher rpm and give more power > > at greater efficiency but might require alteration of the electronics too> > > > Dan> > > > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/ma!
ilman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Not really. The Capstone Microturbine is the only one I found as appropriate (efficient, low emissions, not noisy as hell). A 10KW isn't even big enough really. For one, consider that you can't get 10KW of DC charging off of a 10KW AC generator, there's a power factor derating here. And if it's supposed to average out as you start and stop, the energy's flowing through the batts so batt cycle losses apply thus you won't get 10KW average to the controller.

So unless your kwh/mi usage is very low, this may only maintain the batt's SOC at under 30 mph. You will have to use it to charge while parked so it won't enable you to drive across the state for example. I don't know your kwh/mi but I suspect a 20KW may be necessary as a minimum if you wanna use this as an unlimited-range series hybrid.

What must be kept in mind is 10KW-20KW gas or diesel worksite-type generator running at full throttle is a noisy, smelly beast that will DEFINITELY attract the attention of anyone within 100 ft as you drive by. The noise you might have heard from such a genny at idle is not what you're gonna hear at full tilt. You will need hearing protection at 5-10 ft for a prolonged period. It is also probably illegal to drive a vehicle off such a gen because it's equivalent (probably worse) to taking off the cat and emissions system off the original engine. 

Now people convert their trucks to carb and remove the cat sometimes to beef them up and it's still legal in some locations. But you're sure gonna get noticed as a more obvious case- and not the good kind of attention.

Danny



> ---- Arak Leatham <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > So are there any similar sized Genset with all the proper bells and wistles?
> > I like valid complaints but I love viable solutions.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*



> On 26 Dec 2007 at 22:13, Arak Leatham wrote:
> 
> > So are there any similar sized Genset with all the proper bells and wistles?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

a parallel hybrid would be a terrible waste of effort for so little 
benefit if any. a Prius is quite sophisticated and only manages to match 
the good small ICE cars. I think there's a good chance a homemade 
parallel hybrid would have worse mileage than the original ICE car. you 
could make the electric drive on separate wheels but then you'd need a 
'gas' pedal for that and hold down the clutch pedal all the time you 
drive electric.
and we are looking for 10kW here, not 100 so a small motorcycle or 
scooter motor will do and I imagine they can be efficient enough for the 
rare usage it will see



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > For this reason (and many others) parallel hybrid design is probably more
> > useful for homebrewing.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

OK, here is my million dollar secret hybrid design: take a TransWarp 13 
motor, mount a clutch housing and clutch on the front, bolt that to the 
new hy-effecincey engine, low speed, operate on electric, high speed, 
operate on the ICE, plug it in at home and drive around town on electric.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's


>a parallel hybrid would be a terrible waste of effort for so little
> benefit if any. a Prius is quite sophisticated and only manages to match
> the good small ICE cars. I think there's a good chance a homemade
> parallel hybrid would have worse mileage than the original ICE car. you
> could make the electric drive on separate wheels but then you'd need a
> 'gas' pedal for that and hold down the clutch pedal all the time you
> drive electric.
> and we are looking for 10kW here, not 100 so a small motorcycle or
> scooter motor will do and I imagine they can be efficient enough for the
> rare usage it will see
>


> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> For this reason (and many others) parallel hybrid design is probably more
> >> useful for homebrewing.
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Good luck finding the space.




> Josh Creel wrote:
> 
> > OK, here is my million dollar secret hybrid design: take a
> > TransWarp 13
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's


> Good luck finding the space.
> Hi EVerybody;

I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the 
driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL in 
the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can 
"Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY 
house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses, right 
up there with 12 mile long fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping 
up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to 
cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah, 
Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half. 
Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel 
they used EVery day!?

A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW School 
Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could 
work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret Hybrid 
design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for 
their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy 
central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light) 
construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and 
lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal" for 
the local post office, with a more modest drive train.

See ya

Bob
>
>


> Josh Creel wrote:
> >
> >> OK, here is my million dollar secret hybrid design: take a
> >> TransWarp 13
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

: )




> Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> > I FOUND it!
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Well, here's what you have to deal with:
1. A Warp 13" is a series wound and does not do regen AFAIK.
2. Any energy captured through regen is subject to generator, batt cycle, controller, and motor losses.
3. The braking energy when braking a car, much less a bus, is not a phenomenally large amount of energy but the flow rate- power- must be VERY fast to stop a car much less a bus. The generating capability of the motor must be very high to recapture as much as it can. But the real problem is this may translate into hundreds or thousands of charging amps to the battery and most batts can't handle it, or if they do it's very inefficiency. A123 should do much, much better than other technologies though.
4. The benefit of "buffering" the engine with a "hybrid drive train" in normal driving has reached urban legend proportions. In fact it does little to increase mpg in most circumstances and may well decrease it. Prius has one of the lowest drag coefficients ever seen in a production car. Then they used an Atkinson engine which gets much better mpg but it has poor peak power to get the car off the starting line and the battery booster makes that engine drivable. The lower drag/rolling resistance and more efficient engine alone already explain essentially all its mpg gains over other sedans.

Danny

---- Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote: 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
> 
> 
> > Good luck finding the space.
> > Hi EVerybody;
> 
> I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the 
> driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL in 
> the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can 
> "Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY 
> house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses, right 
> up there with 12 mile long fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping 
> up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to 
> cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah, 
> Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half. 
> Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel 
> they used EVery day!?
> 
> A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW School 
> Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could 
> work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret Hybrid 
> design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for 
> their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy 
> central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light) 
> construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and 
> lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal" for 
> the local post office, with a more modest drive train.
> 
> See ya
> 
> Bob
> >
> >


> Josh Creel wrote:
> > >
> > >> OK, here is my million dollar secret hybrid design: take a
> > >> TransWarp 13
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

NREL is working on this already.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/ahhps/components_systems.html

Two years ago I got to look at one of the prototypes -- a 20 foot
delivery truck just like the graphic. In a delivery route type use --
start stop, lower speed, they reported the mileage increased from 6 to
10mpg IIRC.

Z



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well, here's what you have to deal with:
> > 1. A Warp 13" is a series wound and does not do regen AFAIK.
> > 2. Any energy captured through regen is subject to generator, batt cycle, controller, and motor losses.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Check Netgain Technologies, LLC. EMIS system designed for just such an
application:
http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS-Desc.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 4:46 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's
> 
> 
> > Good luck finding the space.
> > Hi EVerybody;
> 
> I FOUND it! Lottsa room under school buses! A Warp 13" spliced in the
> driveline, several hundred lbs of a123's on tap. Diseasel engine is STILL
in
> the drive train, but the driver has a Zilla at his/her fingertips and can
> "Launch" with the electric. School buses stop an' go practically at EVERY
> house. We all know that! You all have been stuck behind School Buses,
> right
> up there with 12 mile long fright trains at grade crossings, for stopping
> up traffic! Once the bus is rolling, driver engages the Diseasel engine to
> cruise the Turnpike. Steps on the brake and the batteries charge. Yeah,
> Woopie doo, a hybrid, but I'll bet it would cut fuel consumption in half.
> Especisally if there was a competition among drivers as to how little fuel
> they used EVery day!?
> 
> A Retrofit kit for school buses? Yeah, have ya priced out a NEW
School
> Bus? Think they go for Tesla prices? EVen with Led acids I think it could
> work? What's a few tons of T-145's to a bus? That's my not so secret
Hybrid
> design until all the SB's are ELECTRIC! Most SB's sit all day waiting for
> their call to duty, and, like us, sleep the night away? Live in a handy
> central bus yard. As vehicles go they are rather chintzy(Light)
> construction, for their size. IF I had alota money I would convert one and
> lend it to my local skool district for trial. Same with a "Gone Postal"
for
> the local post office, with a more modest drive train.
> 
> See ya
> 
> Bob
> >
> >


> Josh Creel wrote:
> > >
> > >> OK, here is my million dollar secret hybrid design: take a
> > >> TransWarp 13
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's*

Huh? found what?








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> From: [email protected]> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:34:35 -0800> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best 10kw Gensets - switching to EV-CV's> > : )> > >


> Bob Rice wrote:> > > I FOUND it!> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> _________________________________________________________________
> The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console.
> http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/
> ...


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