# [EVDL] Azure AC24(LS) underperformance



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dave,

See the data at http://www.evalbum.com/1430 of John & Julie EV with a Azure 
kit from Electro Auto. This is the heavy kit with high voltage with very 
good results driving in 20 F. with new batteries on a mix of level and steep 
hills.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hale" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Azure AC24(LS) underperformance


> Is there even one person out there who can say they are satisfied with the
> performance from their Azure AC24 / AC24LS and DMOC445? I'm interested in
> hearing from any vehicle owners, but I converted a Porsche 914 using the 
> AC
> kit from Electro Automotive. I'm using the AC24LS but it is so close to 
> the
> AC24, let's not worry about that for the moment.
> Before I made the decision of AC over DC I had read that the acceleration 
> of
> the AC system was poor, but things I read still said it was "freeway
> capable" and Electro Auto claims 100 mph. I can live without burning 
> rubber,
> but now that I'm on the road, I would be reluctant to call this vehicle
> freeway capable at all. I have to be extremely careful about the roads I
> select. Freeways which I previously thought were flat have now been shown 
> to
> have *slight* grades, which limit my speed to about 45-50 mph on them 
> (very
> dangerous in a 65 zone). So I can only drive on down-sloped freeways. On
> flat ground my 0-50 time is about 80 seconds (never make it over 50 
> without
> the help of a hill somewhere).
>
> I've gone back & forth on this with Azure, sending them data captures. 
> They
> say this is normal and now they don't want to talk about it anymore.
> ElectroAuto says it is not normal and they say they are working on it, but
> they don't know what's wrong so they have to try to talk to Azure, who
> doesn't want to talk about it. One thing I can see in my captures is that 
> my
> real torque matches my desired torque for only a few seconds, then it 
> drops
> to about 50% desired. EA claims they get real torque=desired torque for up
> to 2 minutes before overheating. Azure has no comment. What do you see?
>
> I would be interested in hearing some actual experiences, and some 0-60
> times, and seeing some of your data captures, and even seeing your .par
> files. Maybe the solution is a software configuration, or maybe it's
> hardware.
>
> --Dave
>
> http://www.evalbum.com/2500
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's the AC55, not AC24LS. There is quite a big difference in 
performance.

This is pure speculation, but I would lean towards there being a 
problem with the controller settings. Could it be going into low 
voltage current limit?




> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > Hello Dave,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Folks,

Trying again in plain text rather than HTML (my bad).

I searched on the evalbum site for all of the cars that have the AC24. 
The ONLY way to get the motor to perform is to add more volts. The 144v 
system, as designed by EA is not adequate.

Check it out: http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl/SOLE

So it looks like I will be going with as high a voltage as I can squeeze 
into my 914 (meaning lithium batteries).

Cheers,
Peter

Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> That's the AC55, not AC24LS. There is quite a big difference in 
> performance.
>
> This is pure speculation, but I would lean towards there being a 
> problem with the controller settings. Could it be going into low 
> voltage current limit?
>
>
>


> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hello Dave,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You may be right but I still should not be losing torque when requested. Fix
that problem and it may not be perfect but should at least be better. I
agree that less mass and more voltage would be great. Please keep us posted
on your final battery configuration. I'm still not sure the best LFP
arrangement but I'll save that for a separate thread. I wanted to get this
one going first, since I can't afford the LFPs at the moment.
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Peter C. Thompson


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > The ONLY way to get the motor to perform is to add more volts. The 144v
> > system, as designed by EA is not adequate.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> > Is there even one person out there who can say they are satisfied with the
> > performance from their Azure AC24 / AC24LS and DMOC445? I'm interested in
> > hearing from any vehicle owners, but I converted a Porsche 914 using the AC
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I want to add here something may not have been entirely clear in my first
post. The guys at Electro Automotive are indeed working very hard on my
situation. They have been instructing me to send them lots of data captures
and they are analyzing them. I am very pleased with the high level of
support I am getting from Electro Automotive.

Even though Azure says my car is behaving normally, Electro Automotive has a
test car which performs better than mine so they feel that my car does have
a problem and we both have expectations that it can be fixed. EA is really
spending a lot of time on my case and I'm extremely grateful for that. My
intention behind this post was merely to gather additional data points, from
914ev owners that don't visit the 914ev google group forum, and from non-914
vehicles.

--Dave




> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Is there even one person out there who can say they are satisfied with the
> > performance from their Azure AC24 / AC24LS and DMOC445? I'm interested in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave

I have a 1988 Mazda 323 with AC24 & DMOC445(see http://www.evalbum.com/1473)
and I am very satisfied with it. Any lack of "zip" can easily be attributed
to the considerable mass of the car (nearly 3,000 lbs) and droop of the
batteries (nominally 144v but getting rather old). 

I have noticed that performance seems sensitive to battery voltage. Just a
few volts extra droop makes a big difference. I didn't see reference to
your nominal voltage in your post, but if it's less than 144 or so, then
maybe that's the cause of your unsatisfactory performance.

MRO




> halestorm wrote:
> >
> > Is there even one person out there who can say they are satisfied with the
> > performance from their Azure AC24 / AC24LS and DMOC445? I'm interested in
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> So I can only drive on down-sloped freeways. On
> flat ground my 0-50 time is about 80 seconds (never make it over 50
> without
> the help of a hill somewhere).

Ouch. That is really slow. I have a Siemens Simovert with a 1LH5118 motor
and 36 40Ah Thunder Sky cells. At 120A they sag to about 100v (when
they're warm) which gives me 12kW continuous. This is enough to do 90km/h
on the flat, and I'd say my 0-90km/h is perhaps 20 seconds (using 200A,
not 120A). My car weighs 650kg.

While the Siemens system is not designed for such a low voltage, it will
still pull 200A at 90V and push it into the motor at 9000rpm. It's very
very battery power limited, but doesn't care about the voltage. I've set
my battery current limit at 200A and I can hold 200 battery amps from
perhaps 30km/h. Once I'm battery current limited the torque drops with
speed because they system is operating in constant power.

What is happening to your battery current and voltage?

If your system is sitting on the battery current limit while you
accelerate then your output power will be very closely related to your
battery voltage at that current. You either need to raise the battery
current or voltage to improve it. If you system isn't battery power
limited, then your problem lies elsewhere.

A possible problem unrelated to the battery power could be that your
system doesn't do field weakening (and I'd be very surprised if an AC
induction system doesn't, but a permant magnet system might not) and the
battery voltage is simply unsuitable for the motor.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

hi Michael,
Right, I'm at 144V nominal (18 * 8V), so about 152V at full charge. In fact,
we have essentially the same batteries (mine are the 170Ah 8VGCXC). The
issue isn't so much "zip" or burning rubber -- I never had those
expectations. Certainly less mass and more power would help that, but not
only do I not have the money for LFPs, I'm optimistic about ElectroAuto's
efforts to solve the case with FLAs.

The main concern is that I never really get full power for more than a
couple of seconds. I can see this in the captures (and this is one of the
things ElectroAuto is working on) and I'm wondering if anyone else sees
this. Maybe if I could look at your .par file it might give a clue; I don't
know. Do you have any captures handy for comparison?

For what it's worth, my lowest voltage was about 144V after driving about 50
mi (my longest trip) at which point the performance was even less. But I am
generally comparing performance on a full charge. I leave home on a full
charge and dash to work almost all downhill, recharge fully at work, then
fight the ~1.5% grade back home (I have a ~ 1000 ft elevation gain over ~ 14
mi).

Your Mazda looks great.

--Dave (N3WTK)

p.s. I'm aware of TimK's 914ev. I have talked to him and I'm not the fellow
that bought his. My expectations are that these contributions and Electro
Auto's great efforts will benefit everyone's installations.




> W9IP <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Originally 126V but EA had me lower it to 115 just to eliminate that as the
problem.



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What is the input voltage limit on the controller?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Dave,
I have an AC24 system with 18 8V (144 total) Porsche 914. Seems
like it is similar to yours except for the LS option.
Timing my acceleration (on the way to the OEVA meeting), from a
stop to 55 mph took 35 seconds. Fortunately, my lane (far right)
was empty behind me, probably because everyone changed to the
middle lane way in advance.

Regards,
Dan

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:34:10 -0700
From: Dave Hale <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Azure AC24(LS) underperformance
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:

<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

......
Snip
.....

I would be interested in hearing some actual experiences, and
some 0-60
times, and seeing some of your data captures, and even seeing
your .par
files. Maybe the solution is a software configuration, or maybe
it's
hardware.

--Dave


**********************************



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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, Dan. That doesn't sound too bad. Another 914ev AC24LS came online
this week which should be identical to mine and I just got an email report
from him tonight ... 0-60 in 20s with driver and a 200lb passenger.
Fantastic!
The good news is there are now at least three good 914/Azure AC24(LS)
examples: yours, this one I just mentioned, and ElectroAuto's test car. The
bad news is that this confirms that there is definitely something wrong with
my system.

--Dave




> Dan Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Dave,
> > I have an AC24 system with 18 8V (144 total) Porsche 914. Seems
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi, Dave -

I haven't collected any log files, sorry. I can describe the behavior of
the voltage and current from meter readings, however. With a full charge
(ca. 156+V), the indicated voltage drops to about 146-150 at somewhat over
200 A. It will stay there indefinitely as the car accelerates. Zero to 50
in 20-30 seconds on the flats. Much slower if there is a grade.

Some random thoughts: Have you confirmed that you don't have the controller
set for "economy mode?" Is it getting enough cooling air (do the fans
actually come on?)? Can you measure the internal resistance of the entire
battery chain? Maybe you have a stealthy bad connector. This would express
itself as good no-load voltage but bad current delivery (plus a lot of
heat).

Thanks for the compliment on the Mazda. I take no credit... the workmanship
is entirely that of Andy Herringshaw in Iowa. Good work, great guy.

MRO


halestorm wrote:
> 
> hi Michael,
> Right, I'm at 144V nominal (18 * 8V), so about 152V at full charge. In
> fact,
> we have essentially the same batteries (mine are the 170Ah 8VGCXC). The
> issue isn't so much "zip" or burning rubber -- I never had those
> expectations. Certainly less mass and more power would help that, but not
> only do I not have the money for LFPs, I'm optimistic about ElectroAuto's
> efforts to solve the case with FLAs.
> 
> The main concern is that I never really get full power for more than a
> couple of seconds. I can see this in the captures (and this is one of the
> things ElectroAuto is working on) and I'm wondering if anyone else sees
> this. Maybe if I could look at your .par file it might give a clue; I
> don't
> know. Do you have any captures handy for comparison?
> 
> For what it's worth, my lowest voltage was about 144V after driving about
> 50
> mi (my longest trip) at which point the performance was even less. But I
> am
> generally comparing performance on a full charge. I leave home on a full
> charge and dash to work almost all downhill, recharge fully at work, then
> fight the ~1.5% grade back home (I have a ~ 1000 ft elevation gain over ~
> 14
> mi).
> 
> Your Mazda looks great.
> 
> --Dave (N3WTK)
> 
> p.s. I'm aware of TimK's 914ev. I have talked to him and I'm not the
> fellow
> that bought his. My expectations are that these contributions and Electro
> Auto's great efforts will benefit everyone's installations.
> 
> 
>


> W9IP <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Dave
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dan Brown wrote:
> > Hello Dave,
> > I have an AC24 system with 18 8V (144 total) Porsche 914. Seems
> > like it is similar to yours except for the LS option.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Are the motor windings configured in delta? If it's in Wye, that
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The AC24LS isnt capable of 99Nm in delta, only in star
With 144v, you should definitely be in delta.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave Hale
Sent: Friday, 12 June 2009 11:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Azure AC24(LS) underperformance



> Evan Tuer <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Are the motor windings configured in delta? If it's in Wye, that
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Jun 2009 at 16:11, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > there's definitely something wrong there...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 13 Jun 2009 at 10:35, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 
> > It's possible that the drive does its best to produce the torque you
> > asked for (via field weakening perhaps) ...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > AC induction motors use field weakening? How does that work?
> >
> > And AC or DC, how can a weaker field produce more torque? I thought FW=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know if it would be able to significantly overload torque for
> > 2 seconds then fall off, though; with proper heatsinking and software
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Torque drop off at 2200 rpm with a 144v pack is what you would expect to see
if the motor is wired in wye.
Double/triple check the wiring.

Another test, use a true RMS AC volt meter, and measure the voltage applied
to the motor phase to phase.
If this is around 100v AC, then the controller is operating with a
modulation index of 1 (voltage applied to motor is limited by pack voltage).
If the voltage applied is less than 100vac, then your controller is the
culprit.

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave Hale
Sent: Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Azure AC24(LS) underperformance



> Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know if it would be able to significantly overload torque for
> > 2 seconds then fall off, though; with proper heatsinking and software
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is there someplace you could post the data you're looking at.

I probably can't help yuo, but I like to be able to see the numbers we're
all talking about.

Maybe someone else could see a problem elsewhere in the data.

If you don't have a place to post it. I could put it up on my site for
others to see it.

Stay Charged!
Hump



> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > The issue is not one of losing torque after a period of *time*. Upon closer
> > examination I see that the RealTorque prematurely drops with motor speed.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good suggestions. But, if you want to determine if the batteries are
limiting your power, all you have to look at is battery voltage. If the
battery voltage doesn't sag a lot under load, the batteries are doing their
job. If the battery voltage doesn't drop, and battery current is not as
high as it should be, it's a problem ( or, limitation) of the
controller/motor.
Phil Marino



> Tom Parker <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 09:54 -0700, Dave Hale wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Is there someplace you could post the data you're looking at.
> >
> ...


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