# [EVDL] Milestone



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just updated my EValbum page, and it looks like my car just crossed the
threshold of 12K miles as an EV. Here's hoping for many more years and 12K
thresholds in the future!

Mike

www.evalbum.com/2778


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mike

Congrats! Chalk up another data point for lithium.

I thought I was doing.OK to have passed 2500 but my 12-13 miles a day use
on lead takes a lot longer to add up.

Peter Flipsen Jr


> "Mike Nickerson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I just updated my EValbum page, and it looks like my car just crossed the
> > threshold of 12K miles as an EV. Here's hoping for many more years and 12K
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> > I just updated my EValbum page, and it looks like my car just crossed the
> > threshold of 12K miles as an EV. Here's hoping for many more years and 12K
> > thresholds in the future!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lead is dead. Sure, it can be made to work for a little while with lots of
expertise and care, but real car duty for the masses means thousands and
thousands of miles with little or no maintenance. I believe longevity FAR
outweighs initial cost. Besides, as Rickard points out in the latest evtv,
you can build a 40-50 mile pack for a similar price to lead using small
40-60ah batts that will long outlive their lead counterparts. Jmho.


> "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 12:44:27AM -0600, Mike Nickerson wrote:
> > > I just updated my EValbum page, and it looks like my car just crossed the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Marcus

Not sure where you or Jack are getting either of your numbers from. Just
checked the website for the Electric Car Parts Company of Utah and 60AH
LiFePO4 batts are $75-80 each. Since I would need 38 for my 120V pack that
puts me in the range of $2800-$3000 for batts alone. Add in several
hundred for a BMS (unless you believe Jack and don't bother with one) and
you hit the $3200-3500 range. That's considerably more than the $2000 it
will cost me to replace my pack of Trojan T-875s. In my case I would
probably need to upgrade my charger as well.

Range-wise I'm also puzzled. Currently my range is about 23 miles based on
the following:

120 V x 170 AH x 0.80 DOD x 0.57 Peukert correction
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
400 Wh / mile

Plugging in the 60 AH for the LiFePO4 with no Peukert correction I only get
to about 14 miles range which is only 60% of the lead range. Or does Wh /
mile magically drop by 40-50% when you switch to Lithium? (I've heard hints
to that effect)

To get comparable range I would have to bump the batts up to 100 AH which
are $125-133 each putting the cost up to $4700-$5000 for batts alone.

I will certainly admit that the low maintenance and long-life do mean lower
costs per mile, but that only counts if I keep my current vehicle (1997
S-10) for the life of the batts.


- Peter Flipsen Jr




> Marcus Reddish <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Lead is dead. Sure, it can be made to work for a little while with lots of
> > expertise and care, but real car duty for the masses means thousands and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> SLPinfo.org wrote:
> 
> > Not sure where you or Jack are getting either of your numbers from. Just
> > checked the website for the Electric Car Parts Company of Utah and 60AH
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmm.. Well let's run the numbers...

60AH x 120v = 7200 watt hours. Using the generally accepted 300 watt hours
/ mile, 7200/300 = 24 miles @ 100% dod and about 20 miles at 83% dod. 20
miles @ 2-3000 cycles = 40-60,000 miles. If the batts cost $1.5/ kwh that
is about $90 each with 38 costing $3400. 50,000 miles / $3400 = $0.07 per
mile in batt cost. To get the same value considering the lead is only
$2000 you would have to go 30,000 miles on your Lead pack. Do you think
that is even remotely possible? I think not. Lead is fools gold.



> SLPinfo.org <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Marcus
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Marcus,

I already conceded that the cost per mile is better with lithium.

My quibble was that you said in your original message that I could replace
my lead pack with a 40-60 AH lithium pack for the same money and get the
same range as my lead pack. I think my calculations clearly say
otherwise. Even if the weight loss improves energy consumption from 400 to
300 Wh/mile, the range on a 60 AH pack of lithium only improves from 14 to
19 miles which is still almost 20% less than I get with my t875s.

- Peter Flipsen Jr





> Marcus Reddish <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hmmm.. Well let's run the numbers...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How far does your lead actually drive currently? The 37 Jag (EValbum
#3980) has gone 96 highway miles on the 25kw pack with plenty of battery to
spare. That works out to about 260watt hours/mile figuring 100% dead which
it was definitely not (so figure less). If you want the lithium
numbers stretched like lead numbers I can do that. Take 40ah x 38 batts x
3.2v = 4864 watt hours / 250 watts per mile = 19.5 miles. 38 x $60 =
$2280. So there you have Lead range with Lithium reliability at lead
pricing. At 20 miles per charge the lead would not last but a few if any
cycles. The lithium would. Do rechargeable drills use lead batts?
Cameras? Cell phones?



> SLPinfo.org <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Marcus,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Willie,

I was able to avoid all the discussion. When I bought the car, it was
already converted to electric and had the lithium cells. However, I pretty
well knew I had to have lithium to comfortably make my 23 miles (each way)
commute to work. The del Sol conversion worked well for me. I got:

- The convertible I've always wanted.
- 50-60 mile range so my commute is only 1/2 battery capacity (I charge
at work. I have made it completely round trip, once.)
- A part-time project that I can work on, but didn't need a lot of work
to drive.
- All for about 1/3 the cost of a Leaf! I paid not quite what the
original converter had into the car for parts.

It has worked very well for me. Having an electrical engineering / Physics
background, I feel well qualified to work on the electrical parts. My local
mechanic works on everything else. The car really has been "get in and
drive" except for the times I tear it apart to make changes.

Mike

> Congrats! I imagine when you first selected lithium you encountered much
> nay saying? Now, you've got at least one lead pack worth of use out of
your
> lithium, maybe two. You're not facing a corroded mess in your battery
> boxes. You haven't wasted hours watering and cleaning your battery.
You're
> not facing a laborious and expensive pack replacement. You probably have
> not encountered any cell reliability problems. Your range is probably far
> greater than with lead.
> 
> So, how much farther until you consider that you've come out ahead
> financially on lithium compared to lead? Another 20k miles?
> 
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 49 days 2 hours 20 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Marcus Reddish wrote:
> 
> > Take 40ah x 38 batts x
> > 3.2v = 4864 watt hours / 250 watts per mile = 19.5 miles. 38 x $60 =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think lithium would hold up as well or better to a 500A load than lead
which doesn't seem to hold up at all if it would even put out that many
Amps. Did you see the latest EVTV? Jack repeatedly tested the 40ah cells
at 480A for 15 and 30 seconds at a time.

If initial cost is your only consideration, then perhaps lead seems a good
answer. But with any sort of long view, lithium comes out on top. I
believe that EV's cannot become commonplace using lead. The weight,
maintenance, poor performance, and short life all conspire together to make
it unworkable for all but the most dedicated. If EV's are to become
mainstream then they need absolute reliability and longevity.

If you are going to spend ~$2000 on new batts, why not try a set and then
you will be able to report their success or failure in direct comparison to
the lead pack? I have yet to hear of a single person going back to lead
after trying lithium. But I have heard of some receiving poor quality and
mismatched cells from unscrupulous vendors, so be careful. I will be
testing the new grey CALB 60ah cells up to 600A in a 400-500V string. With
voltage sag it should still put out over 200kw. The battery will weigh
~550lbs and store 25-30kwh. These numbers are simply not possible using
lead.

Cheers



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Marcus Reddish wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 4 Sep 2012 at 17:03, Marcus Reddish wrote:
> 
> > Do rechargeable drills use lead batts? Cameras? Cell phones?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Marcus Reddish wrote:
> 
> > I think lithium would hold up as well or better to a 500A load than lead
> > which doesn't seem to hold up at all if it would even put out that many
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Note that the only reason for Wh/mi (from the battery) to drop with lithium is due to the decreased rolling losses associated with the reduction in battery weight. Wh/mi from the outlet might show a more pronounced improvement since that would include both the slight reduction in Wh/mi due to the weight reduction as well as the charging efficiency improvements. (Note that the charging efficiency improvements don't help range at all, just energy cost.)
> >
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Peter,

This subject tends to polarise opinion so brace yourself for a on-line ding-dong (war of words).

Cost per mile isn't just 'better' which could mean 10% or even 5% improvement. It is at least 5 times better and conceivably an order of magnitude better... not discounting (because no-one really knows yet - except maybe Jukka) the possibility that they could go on <for ever> if treated 'right'.

Add to that the lack of maintenance required, no nasty acid spills or explosive gassing, 4 times the weight for the same range, not far off the same again for space required, having to use a great lump of a vehicle due to the last two points (with its poor Wh/m) and improved acceleration and general vehicle handling and (as you might have gathered) I am very much in the Li camp.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk




> SLPinfo.org wrote:
> 
> > Marcus,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Marcus

1. I do sort of.get.your point about the long view. But even $2000 is a
lot of money for me. I set aside money every paycheck into my battery fund
and hope my pack doesn't die before I have enough money saved to replace
it.

2. I don't watch evtv very often. I don't have the patience for Jack's
slow monotonous delivery.

3. I do admire (somewhat) what Jack does but he clearly has enough money
that he doesn't have to worry about voiding the warranty which is what he
does with many of his "tests".

Peter


> "Marcus Reddish" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I think lithium would hold up as well or better to a 500A load than lead
> > which doesn't seem to hold up at all if it would even put out that many
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My plan to get from lead to lithium is to run a hybrid pack with a 40Ah
string boosting the lead, then adding another 40 Ah when I can and ditching
the lead. That way I can make the leap $1k-$2k at a time, instead of doing
it all at once for $4-$5k.



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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Milestone-tp4657700p4657745.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I do not understand why many of the EV's are pulling over 400 to 500 
amperes. Is this battery amps or motor amps?

In my daily drive which I will leave in about 15 minutes, I will drive up a 
steep 1 mile hill town driving at 25 mph at 200 motor amps and 75 battery 
amps using 4.2 AH with a 6800 lb EV!

Start out in 1st gear overall ratio of 27:1 to a speed of 10 mph at 1800 rpm 
which is the sweet spot of the motor which produces the maximum torque and 
HP holding a 75 battery ampere. Shift to 2nd overall ratio of 16:1 to a 
speed of 25 mph which again is 1800 rpm at 200 motor amps and 75 battery 
amperes.

Can keep at 200 motor and 75 battery amperes while shifting up in speed 
holding at the sweet spot.

Yes, I could press the accelerator a little harder to get the motor up to 
300 amperes and battery up to 100 amperes.

The first set of batteries which where 2 volt Tudor cells lasted me 10 
years. The next set which was Trojan 6 volts only lasted me 8.6 years 
because of bad post design. Call the factory on this, and the engineer said 
these batteries are not really design for on the road EV's.

The set I am running now which was install 3 years ago are US Battery 6 
volts with standard auto post and fully rubber coated battery clamps that 
are torque to 110 inch pounds. No corrosion at all setting in a 
non-conductance seal battery compartment that is ventilated with a filter 
fresh air flow.

Today, the batteries have 2061 discharge and charges. Only clean them once 
a year with Windex with ammonia. Charge to a rate of 25 amps at 7.75 volts 
per battery every time which only takes 7.5 minutes per mile.

Doing short time charging, keeps the battery temperature bubble factor down 
making for a longer life.

Anyway, I need the ballast weight to push up hills through a foot of snow 
while the neighbors baby buggy car cannot make it out of the driveway.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SLPinfo.org" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone


> Marcus
>
> 1. I do sort of.get.your point about the long view. But even $2000 is a
> lot of money for me. I set aside money every paycheck into my battery 
> fund
> and hope my pack doesn't die before I have enough money saved to replace
> it.
>
> 2. I don't watch evtv very often. I don't have the patience for Jack's
> slow monotonous delivery.
>
> 3. I do admire (somewhat) what Jack does but he clearly has enough money
> that he doesn't have to worry about voiding the warranty which is what he
> does with many of his "tests".
>
> Peter
> On Sep 4, 2012 10:16 PM, "Marcus Reddish" <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> > > I think lithium would hold up as well or better to a 500A load than lead
> > > which doesn't seem to hold up at all if it would even put out that many
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > When I had a T-875 48V pack in my Gizmo it went a little over
> > 3.5mi/kWh from the wall. When I had an Interstate UB2200 6V pack in it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > I do not understand why many of the EV's are pulling over 400 to 500
> > amperes. Is this battery amps or motor amps?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message -----

> From: Roland Wiench <[email protected]>
>
> I do not understand why many of the EV's are pulling over 400 to 500 =

> amperes. Is this battery amps or motor amps?
> =



Both for me. I hit 500 battery amps (~4c, and the max I have my controll=
er set to allow) at some point in my drive pretty much every day. Genera=
lly at least when I'm getting on the freeway, I like to be going at least 5=
5mph when I merge on. I'm averaging 35 miles/day and have no worries abo=
ut pulling 500a for a few seconds every once in a while. And my motor cu=
rrent is often over 500a right off the line. Lately I've just been leavi=
ng it in third gear (which is fairly sedate from a stop), so I tend to just=
floor it off the line, then let up a bit as the battery amps rise, and hol=
d them at ~200a. 

I can also use all my gears and keep both motor and battery current under 2=
00 by accelerating more slowly if I want, but I generally don't.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland

I can currently only measure motor amps and I almost never exceed 400. But
I do often peak at 300-325 starting out in 1st gear. Within 10-15 seconds
I'm below 200 amps. I almost never get above 45 mph (no need in my short
commute) but typically cruise in 2nd gear at 35 mph at about 125 motor
amps. Like Roger I too am running a 120V system which would mean higher
amp draws than your 180V.

- Peter Flipsen Jr




> David Ladd <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

Back in 76 when I received by first EV, I drove it out of town on a highway 
that had no speed limit. I would normally drive to work with my Corvette at 
about 100 mph and sometimes may be pass by others.

I would drive the EV at a slower speed at 75 mph and not worry about burning 
off the enamel off the field windings when pulling 600+ battery amps. The 
field windings in a GE-11 are No. 5 AWG square wires that are space wound on 
glass rods separate by mica paper. The windings could be bare with no 
problems.

It was recommended every ten years to pull all the electronics, replace the 
batteries and recondition the motor. The motor enamel was burnt a dark 
brown and was flaking off.

I am now running a WarP-11 which has no space windings. It is recommended by 
NetGain to hold the motor ampere at 199 amps. It will take 300 amps 
momentary, but this will shorten up the life of the motor.

In town speeds are up to a maximum of 45 mph and I can easily drive that in 
a gear ratio of 9.0:1 at a 150 motor ampere and 50 battery ampere on a dead 
flat very smooth road surface which is very rare for a while. They will 
later lay down a rough cobble stone surface where my motor ampere will be 
back up to 200 amps.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Ladd" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone


----- Original Message -----

> From: Roland Wiench <[email protected]>
>
> I do not understand why many of the EV's are pulling over 400 to 500
> amperes. Is this battery amps or motor amps?
>


Both for me. I hit 500 battery amps (~4c, and the max I have my controller 
set to allow) at some point in my drive pretty much every day. Generally at 
least when I'm getting on the freeway, I like to be going at least 55mph 
when I merge on. I'm averaging 35 miles/day and have no worries about 
pulling 500a for a few seconds every once in a while. And my motor current 
is often over 500a right off the line. Lately I've just been leaving it in 
third gear (which is fairly sedate from a stop), so I tend to just floor it 
off the line, then let up a bit as the battery amps rise, and hold them at 
~200a.

I can also use all my gears and keep both motor and battery current under 
200 by accelerating more slowly if I want, but I generally don't.

david.
http://www.evalbum.com/4021


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland,
I'm curious about the terrain you are covering that allows you to keep you current draw so low.

On the 1 mile of steep hill, how much elevation are you gaining and how fast?
Is the 25 mph town driving basically flat?
What is the total round trip distance?

I ask because when I was driving my converted truck on country roads (rolling hills) I would easily hit 500 battery amps. I could not stay at the current draw because the zilla would cut back. But on short in-town steeper hills I would slow to a crawl (25 mph in a 35 mph zone) or have to pull over entirely. (This was Pioneer Valley of Massachusetts Belchertown to Holyoke)

It sounds like higher nominal voltage may be worth thinking about.

John (now in Boston/Dorchester)




> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > In my daily drive which I will leave in about 15 minutes, I will drive up a
> > steep 1 mile hill town driving at 25 mph at 200 motor amps and 75 battery
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Stockton <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David Nelson wrote:
> >
> >> When I had a T-875 48V pack in my Gizmo it went a little over
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would suggest more cooling to solve the zilla cut back. What is your
cooling setup currently? I have an extra zilla heat sink if you need. It
is very large for stacked servers and has mounting for two 54mm computer
fans. I also run hydro cooling using CPU radiator, fan, pump, tiny
reservoir. Either would likely be sufficient, but I like overkill when it
comes to cooling.


> "John O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Roland,
> > I'm curious about the terrain you are covering that allows you to keep you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a lot of experience with lead batteries, but not powering a car. I
am impressed that some on this forum have gotten so many cycles out of
them. But you must recognize this is an anomaly of a 'master' EV'er. Give
those same cells to my mother-in-law and she would have them ruined in no
time. If you want EV's to be adopted en masse, then lithium is a step in
the right direction. If Roland can get 2000+ cycles out of a battery rated
for 400, then what could he get from a battery rated for 2000 cycles? They
might outlast him. How much experience with lithium do you have?

You say you are not interested in 30 second outputs of high power. This
confuses me. That is a normal acceleration time when merging on the
freeway or driving in traffic. If you give your EV to a teenager this is
how they will drive it.

In Jack's testing the sag was about 15% at 12C (480A from 40ah cells). At
5.5C (220A) it was only 6% compared to 24% for the old cells. This is a
big deal. They are WAY better in that they allow much smaller cells to be
used.

I do not believe lithium is a 'gamble'. The RC, scooter, and bike folks
have well proven that lithium cells can deliver high output from a small
pack and still provide good cycle life.

Regards,
Marcus





> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Marcus Reddish wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, but it is low battery voltage cutback, not thermal.



> Marcus Reddish <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I would suggest more cooling to solve the zilla cut back. What is your
> > cooling setup currently? I have an extra zilla heat sink if you need. It
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > I don't under stand your statement above when your statement below
> > contradicts what you said above and supports what I said.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "John O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Roland,
> I'm curious about the terrain you are covering that allows you to keep you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Marcus Reddish wrote:
> 
> > If you want EV's to be adopted en masse, then lithium is a step in
> > the right direction.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Sep 2012 at 4:31, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > > The RC, scooter, and bike folks
> > > have well proven that lithium cells can deliver high output from a small
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yep, I've driven 12,000 miles on my EV.

8^).

Mike

8^)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> >
> > Yep, I've driven 12,000 miles on my EV.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > productively used on other tasks), then ~115 miles back. I am looking
> > forward to trying some trips up to about 400 miles one way. I am
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rick

>Although maybe your existing one can be re-programmed for little or no
charge.

I have a Quick Charge Select a Charger (110V; 10 amp). It has 4 built in
algorithms, but as far as I know it cannot be re-programmed.



> Don't forget what switching to a 300 pound pack will do for your
> efficiency.
>


I do appreciate that but can't easily calculate how much efficiency that
will get me.


>
>
> Actually they're capable of quite a bit more than that. And these new
> CALB CA cells Jack demonstrated putting out 12C. That's the bit of magic
> that made him say using these small cells might be a viable alternative
> to lead for someone on a budget.
>

Jack can say they are "capable" all he wants, but if I make that sort of
investment I want to know that there is a warranty to back them up. And if
I go beyond the manufacturer specs I seriously risk my investment by
voiding the warranty.

- Peter Flipsen Jr
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > In the show Jack is specifically talking about the CALB CA60AH cells and
> > he's talking about the decision for people building a car. His point
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

SLPinfo.org wrote
> 
> I have a Quick Charge Select a Charger (110V; 10 amp). It has 4 built in
> algorithms, but as far as I know it cannot be re-programmed.
> 

Can't be reprogrammed, but if you use one of the non-gassing settings and
match the lithium to the charger's end voltage there's nothing wrong with
using a lead charger for lithium. It's just slower than you'd get with a
higher power lithium charger.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This seems to be one of the differences between an old-school battery 
manufacturer and the cut-rate Chinese LiFePO4 makers, who all seem to be 
competing with each other mainly on price. 

Although a few of the traditional folks will waffle and say "it depends," 
most of them will give you solid cycle life numbers, because they've tested 
their batteries. The really good ones will have tested them at high 
currents - and even own up to it - so you can predict what will happen if 
you exceed their ratings. Saft used to do this, if memory serves.

Of course this testing, if done, becomes part of the development cost of the 
batteries. You will pay for it when you buy them, and the smaller the sales 
of the battery, the more you'll pay for it.

If you choose to go with a cheaper battery, chances are that you'll get less 
(if any) manufacturer data. Manufacturers competing on price might not want 
to spend much time or money on testing their batteries.

If you're the vendor selling to EV hobbyists, you can make up for this by 
testing them yourself - but then >you'll< have to charge more, and you might 
lose sales to other vendors, so there isn't much incentive for you to test.

That leaves cycle life testing on cheap LiFePO4 batteries mostly up to us. 

The only person I know of who's done anything beyond anecdotal reporting 
("I've put 20,000 miles on mine so far and they're still going strong") is 
Lee Hart, the guy with a full cycle testing apparatus in his cellar. I 
vaguely recall reading that Cedric Lynch may have done some of this too. 
However, he's not on the EVDL, though we do have a Jim Lynch and a Hank 
Lynch. ;-)

I don't have the gear or the time right now. Maybe in a year or two I will.

Anyone else? Want to volunteer your LiFePO4 cycle life data for the good of 
us all?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Sep 2012 at 14:15, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > If you choose to go with a cheaper battery, chances are that you'll
> > get less (if any) manufacturer data.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

EVDL Administrator wrote [on battery test data]:
> A few of the traditional manufacturers... will give you solid cycle life =
numbers, because they've tested
> their batteries. The really good ones will have tested them at high
> currents - and even own up to it - so you can predict what will happen if
> you exceed their ratings. Saft used to do this, if memory serves.

So do outfits like Trojan and Enersys, to name a couple more.

If the batteries are being sold in quantity, large customers will =

typically demand this kind of data. Once a manufacturer has done the =

tests and has solid data, they will use it in their marketing to attract =

other customers. Then everyone can see it. Though of course, it will =

have a certain amount of marketing "spin" added.

> If you choose to go with a cheaper battery, chances are that you'll get l=
ess
> (if any) manufacturer data. Manufacturers competing on price might not w=
ant
> to spend much time or money on testing their batteries.
>
> That leaves cycle life testing on cheap LiFePO4 batteries mostly up to us.
> The only person I know of who's done anything beyond anecdotal reporting
> ("I've put 20,000 miles on mine so far and they're still going strong") is
> Lee Hart, the guy with a full cycle testing apparatus in his cellar.

Yes, I've done some of it. The problem is, I'm a contract engineer. When =

I do testing for a client, *he* owns the data. Clients would be very =

upset if I published their data, so that competitors could benefit from =

it for free! :-(

> Anyone else? Want to volunteer your LiFePO4 cycle life data for the good =
of
> us all?

I wish there was a "Consumer's Reports" for EV batteries -- someone that =

would pretend to be a customer and buy batteries (and other parts), test =

them, and publish the results for everyone to see. Someone who doesn't =

take advertising, and isn't just some company's shill.

But to pull this off, Consumer's Reports needs subscribers. The EV crowd =

has shown tremendous reluctance to pay *anything* for information. =

Everyone wants the data; but no one wants to pay for it.

-- =

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exup=E9ry
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs [email protected]

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmm, it is not impossible to get data even if the batteries
have high cycle life and progress is fast, because almost every
new Li-Ion cell can be discharged at between 1 and 3C so to get
data, presuming we are discharging and charging at 1C then each
cycle lasts in the order of 2h independent from cell size.
That means 12 cycles per day, almost 400 cycles per month so even
the claim for 2000 cycle life with a guaranteed remaining capacity
of 80% can be checked in just over 5 months.
But that means a committed person and dedicated test setup to
cycle the cell 24/7 for 5 months...
It is absolutely not difficult, standard equipment can be used
but the issue is - do we get a few free samples that can be
tortured like outlined?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 12:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Milestone



> On 6 Sep 2012 at 14:15, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > If you choose to go with a cheaper battery, chances are that you'll
> > get less (if any) manufacturer data.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Sep 2012 at 15:28, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Everyone wants the data; but no one wants to pay for it.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > Hmm, it is not impossible to get data even if the batteries
> > have high cycle life and progress is fast, because almost every
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That is why buying and testing the stuff ourselves is the only way. Take
Tesla, they had engineers aplenty. Somehow nobody thought of an OFF
switch. It took the lowly customer to discover that all the parasitic
loads eventually eat the battery to nothing. Oops! Unfortunately, that
means some of us will discover through trial that ours is the not so good
stuff. This is the sacrifice of being an innovator. Hopefully as a group
we can share our experiences and help steer each other in the right
direction.





> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hmm, it is not impossible to get data even if the batteries
> > have high cycle life and progress is fast, because almost every
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > That leaves cycle life testing on cheap LiFePO4 batteries mostly up to us.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have constructed a decent test setup and have some very large format
lithium (260ah) cells currently hooked to it. So far the cells are doing a
LOT better than the motor used to drain them. Turns out the adc 8" can't
take more than 700A @ 96v without audible brush arcing. The helwig brushes
just arrived and we'll see how much they can take after break in.


> "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just curious about the goal of all this testing. Is it to show which brand
or size is best? To predict useable lifespan? The manufacturers already
publish cycle life data (unlike lead). It's a no-brainer that you need to
have extra capacity initially if you want your ev to still be functional
for many years. More is better. It's a lot like buying a computer. Get
all you can afford.


> "Lee Hart" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/6/2012 4:44 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > > Could we get Kickstarter to accept a proposal to fund something like
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Suppose I said, "I'm going to test X number of (brand model) cells. I
> > will measure each cell's individual capacity, internal resistance,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu Sep 06 19:36:13 PDT 2012 [email protected] said:


> >Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> Suppose I said, "I'm going to test X number of (brand model) cells. I
> >> will measure each cell's individual capacity, internal resistance,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee, the test motor is hooked up to a mechanical contraption which
accelerates a large mass to high speed. Some call it an EV  there is no
real reason to put more than 500A through the motor except as part of the
"test" protocol which states that all systems must be tested at their
maximum.
Because of the brushed motor's overheating and arcing issues I am now
building a new test contraption using water-cooled BLDC components rated to
55kw cont. And 200kw for 10-20 sec. The pack will be about 425v nominal.
Perhaps not as good as a ping pong tester, but perhaps a bit more fun.
Cheers


> "Lee Hart" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/6/2012 8:12 PM, Marcus Reddish wrote:
> > > I have constructed a decent test setup and have some very large format
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John wrote -

>
> I'm interested in those A123 20AH pouch cells that are selling relatively
> cheap on Ebay.
> Like these:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/250927848349?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_t
> rksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
> Using those, I could start with a smallish pack, and add capacity as I
could
> afford it.

The Insightcentral.net has a thread going about these A123 Pouches going
http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/22532-bu
ilding-grid-charged-a123-20ah-pack-pp50-project.html

You might want to check it out.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 7 Sep 2012 at 2:36, Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> >
> > I think it would add pointless complexity to try to restrict access to any
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee wrote -
> - What do folks think would happen?
That depends on what you say is *going* happen. On Kickstarter, you sent the
goals and what the rewards are for the individual who contribute. Check out
www.Kickstarted.com. Right now they have a proposal for Marshmallows,
Marshmellows????, it is 186% funded, $3825 pledged and 28 days to go, 138
backers.

> - Would people "contribute" to justify doing it?
The pledge money can be any amount you chose, from $5 to the sky is the
roof. It all depends on the project, if it actually gets funded and what the
rewards are for each level. Maybe for $100, you get one of the tested cells
signed by the tester. Or we could have a t-shirt made 'I help test Lions'

> - Would people just wait for someone else to pay, then look for
> a free download of the data from someone who got it?
Again, that depends on how you set it up. I would guess that everybody who
pledges, even as low as $5 would get a results data email.

> - Would people say, "But that's not the battery I want to use.
> I won't contribute unless you test *my* cells."
No problem, send me 10 (or a representative number) of *your* batteries...

> The interesting thing about setting it up on Kickstarter is that the
project
> doesn't get started unless a sufficient number of people contribute enough
> to actually do the job.

Exactly right. No money is actually 'contributed' unless the pledge amount
is reached in the allotted time. All that means is that someone has to come
up with some numbers that are meaningful and reflect how much it will cost
to test x number of batteries.

I think that Kickstarter has opened up a whole new way of participating in a
project and also of funding a project.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think Peukert affects the flow, not the capacity. 

Say you have a huge parking lot and you tell everyone to get out as fast as
possible for 30 min. Those who were near the exits get out quick and you
have high throughput, then it turns into a traffic jam and barely anyone is
moving.

Then you close the exits for an hour, but let everyone get parked in an
ordery fashion, and when you open the gates you get another flood before it
chokes on traffic. It just takes time for all those electrons to make their
way to the exits and get organized properly. If you give em enough time
they'll all make it out, but we're not going to wait so we take everything
we can now and then just recharge instead of waiting for the guys in the
back to make it to the front.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"Only part of the voltage sag observed at the terminals of the battery is due
to IR drop associated with internal resistances. Lead-acid chemistry is
diffusion-limited, which basically means that if you try to move charge
through the battery faster than the chemistry can keep up, then the voltage
sags. From the outside, this looks like ordinary resistance, but it does
not have the associated losses."

I was thinking of LiFePO4 batteries (since that is what Gizmo is using). At
high discharge currents there is a low concentration of lithium ions outside
the anode due to diffusion limited flow inside the anode, referred to as
concentration polarization, and modeled by a variable resistance called the
Warberg resistance. 



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"The statement above refers specifically to the energy required from the
battery to move the vehicle down the road, and this is not affected by
voltage sag or Peukert effect." 
I didn't say that it did. :^)

What is the mechanism of the "non-ideal" voltage source you refer to? The
general model of an LiFePO4 cell is an ideal voltage source in series with a
fixed resistance, these in parallel with a resistor in series with a
capacitor, and these four components in series with the variable Warberg
resistance.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tomw wrote:
> 
> > "The statement above refers specifically to the energy required from the
> > battery to move the vehicle down the road, and this is not affected by
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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