# My Electric Motorcycle



## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Seems like a very nicely done conversion. The watt/hour per mile are really down there at 75. How has the Kelly controller been working for you? Norm


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Wow that's almost exactly the same as the bike I'm planning- same motor, same controller the only difference is I'm planning on using LiFePO4 instead of Lead Acid... Whats the performance like with 300A and how does the motor's brushes stand up during regen?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

also note, that he bought the bike brand new from the dealer without engine 

great conversion, well executed. Let us know about the regen. Kelly is still fairly new, and we're eager to hear about it,


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Thanks! The odometer is at 400 miles (starting at zero), and everything seems solid. The Kelly controller, Mars motor, etc. all seem to be working very well. Here's a video of the bike in action:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HWyumTVAQBY

No complaints. I only put things together once, and they've all worked from the beginning. 

-Lennon


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

What is the reason for the 45mph top speed? is it the rpm limit of the motor at that gear ratio or not enough power or what?


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Nicely Done

Good Job


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

There were two reasons for the max speed of 45 MPH:

1) Aerodynamic losses are too high above 45 MPH, so I didn't want to temp myself to waste all my battery juice.

2) I wanted the torque. Since I didn't want a transmission, this required me to have a decent gear ratio. I chose a ratio of 72/12 = 6. The gear ratio essentially determines the top speed (for a given motor, wheel size, etc.)

For both of these issues, check out my Excel spreadsheet calculations:
http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/vehicle_calculations.xls

According to these calcs, the motor has plenty of room to have a faster top-end speed.

-Lennon


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

p.s. I posted my motor performance plots here: 
http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/eMoto_motor_performance.jpg


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Someone on another list asked about a conversion kit. Here's some info:

The bulk of the work was in cutting and re-welding the frame (the
actual welding was done on a weekend). The other parts were quite
easy. And the bulk of the cutting/welding time was spent on a stool
staring at the bike - trying to figure out how things would fit
nicely. The second most difficult part was welding/fabricating the
custom brackets to pinch the batteries - they took an entire weekend
to design and fabricate.

Besides that, this bike is very straight forward for converting
(everything fit like a glove). Note on my website that I give all the
steps to repeat what I did. For example, I only needed 1/4'' steel
spacers for the motor mount, and was able to use the existing engine
mounts. I was amazed to see the chain align properly - after inserting
the spacers. This simplified the motor mounting greatly.

All the instructions are here: www.electricmotion.org

Someone out there could crank these things out in lots - I estimate it
would take about 20 hours of labor each if they were made 5 at a time
(100 hours total). It took me 120 hours of labor for just one - but
that included my calculations, and a lot of thinking time.

The bike cost just under $3,000 to build - all new parts - so there IS
a little room for profit (I'd like to see these things at an
affordable purchase price; ~$4,500 out the door brand new. This way
people would actually start buying them). Note that I found an
operating cost of about 1.5 cents/mile if the cost of the batteries is
ignored, and ~7 cents/mile if the cost of replacing the batteries is
included. This ends up being the same as a very efficient gas
motorcycle. However, the battery cost is included in the initial
purchase (and will likely last 10K miles). Many motorcycles never see
a day past 10K miles (though I find that hard to relate to). My
operating cost estimates can be found here:
http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/vehicle_calculations.xls

Best,

-Lennon


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Would you mind if I put some of the information on your website onto our wiki?


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## Jandal (May 3, 2008)

Hey eMoto,

Your site and break down is AWESOME! It covers lots of questions and information I am currently trying to answer while investigating a conversion.

Thank you heaps for sharing your hard work and knowledge!

=-)


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## hypnotoad (May 7, 2008)

My first post here. 

It seemed like an eternity before I found this great website.

Anyways, I currently converting a 1978 Yamaha XS650 Special. If possible. Could you post some close up photos of important areas on your bike? Ignore request if these are on your website. As I have not checked it out yet beyond the homepage.

Thanks


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Ya, there are quite a few pics on the website: www.electricmotion.org

Go to the "Steps" link (right-hand side). Here it is direct:
http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/stepstobuildinganelectricmotorcycle

Under each step I put closeups to give a general idea of how I did it. For example, if you are interested in how I mounted the batteries:
http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/emoto_step7

There are more pics here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lennonrodgers/ElectricMotorcycleDuringConstruction?authkey=TSA-hd0m3WI
http://picasaweb.google.com/lennonrodgers/ElectricMotorcycleFinishedProduct?authkey=cTQsoO565Rg
http://picasaweb.google.com/lennonrodgers/EMoto?authkey=A5hfNrVmA8o

Best,

Lennon


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Did you have to "strike a deal" or something to get the bike new without a motor? I cant imagine going into a bike shop and saying "do they come without a motor? I suppose, most of the time if someone doesn't want a whole bike, it's the motor they want, not the roller. Is that how you fitted in the picture?


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Yep, that's about how it went. I asked for one w/out an engine, he looked puzzled, and then said OK. Now he's selling them on eBay w/out an engine:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/tms2...NameZWD7VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1728Q2em123


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## Flot (May 27, 2008)

The bike looks great. Two questions:

1) How is the riding performance? Specifically zero-to-traffic-speeds acceleration and braking? 

2) Was there no hope of fitting batteries underneath the front fairing? Any thoughts on how the bike would perform if you reduced your battery mass / amp-hours in half? (cutting your range but reducing weight?)


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Thanks!

1) Riding performance is very good. I haven't timed it yet - though I will one of these days. I can't imagine a need for any more acceleration (in a practical sense). Braking is the same - very good - with regen and/or friction.

2) The front fairing would fit (by stretching it a bit - there's still a ~2 inch gap at the top and would not be flush with tank). I liked it w/out the fairing - so kept it off. 

If you cut the amp-hr's in half (but keep the 72V), you'd get a bit better than half the range (so about 14 miles or so). I thought the 6 batteries I used fit fine - like a glove actually. Feel free to plug your plan into my spreadsheet - it will predict the range: http://lennonrodgers.googlepages.com/vehicle_calculations.xls


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

Looks like a very well done conversion.


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Hey emoto, have you done anything for rain/splash protection for the bike or do you just go straight home when the clouds are out? I'm wondering whether I will need to do sealed covers for my parts just for safety's sake.


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Hey, I don't plan on riding it in the rain. Everything could be sealed up, but I'd be a pain. -Lennon


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## Mustang101 (Apr 17, 2008)

EMoto, great build! Here is my bike that I have been driving around for 2 years. Specs:

Chasis: 1969 Enduro frame (I got it from a savage yard for $100)
Motor: Etek (bought it for $275 back when they still made them)
Conroller: Altrax 48V 400A ($275)
Batteries: 8 B&B 12V, 22Ah (Making a 48V, 44Ah pack for around $650)

I have a top speed of around 40-45 mph as well, and I get 25-30 miles range. 

I've never been happy with my bike's looks (it's just not clean enough)
I have a second bike in my garage (a 1998 YZ) that I was going to convert and try to get it to look better, but now I think I'll get a bike like yours on ebay. 

Is it comfortable to ride? After 20 miles on mine I'm ready to get off.


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## hypnotoad (May 7, 2008)

the larger sprocket should equal less time from 0-60mph, but drains the battery life faster.

The smaller the sprocket equals more range as you are not pushing the motor as hard to turn the wheel. Thus using less battery power.

As an example of sprocket sizes in motorcycles.

Take two identical Radio Control cars. With the exact same fully charged batteries. Place one on a 20 degree incline(representing our bigger sprocket bike). Place the other on a flat surface(the smaller sprocket bike). Then start them at full throttle. The one on the incline will run out of power first.

someone correct me if I am wrong, but that is how my brain explained it to me.


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## Mustang101 (Apr 17, 2008)

Actually, the larger rear gear helps range, it makes it easier to move the bike. The drawback is that your top speed is reduced, but 45mph is plenty for around town driving. 
I had a smaller gear on the rear wheel at first and I could hit 62mph but my range drop to 10-15 miles.


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Hi Mustang101, The eMoto is very comfortable to ride. I'm about 6'1'' and it is still a good fit. It's definitely smaller than a CBR, etc. - but that's part of the reason it has a better rolling efficiency (notice the narrow rear wheel/tire). Your enduro looks great! Lennon


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

hypnotoad said:


> the larger sprocket should equal less time from 0-60mph, but drains the battery life faster.
> 
> The smaller the sprocket equals more range as you are not pushing the motor as hard to turn the wheel. Thus using less battery power.
> 
> ...


Actually it the other way around

Large wheel sprocket = less load on the motor so less amps but more range, better acceleration, less top end.

Smaller wheel sprocket = more load on the motor so more amps and less range, less acceleration, higher top end.


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

Sorry LEXUS but I cant answer that. 
It depends on too many things. Available power,weight, wheel size and desired speed/acceleration compromise that you'll be happy with.

Maybe someone else with a bit more experianse with E bike can help you or check the album for similar specs


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## DVR (Apr 10, 2008)

I must say I'm not a fan of the EL-NINJA method of mounting the motor off the swing arm like that .
It may work fine, I don't know, but it just looks wrong!
If you drop the thing that motors history.

Now, the other one on the evalbum?
THAT looks GOOD!!!


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Well I just ordered my Etek-RT and kelly 72V 400A controller today... I'm picking up my donor bike on sunday. Now I just have to look into whether I can ride the bike on my Motorbike learners licence, here in NSW you can only ride bikes on the RTA website for the first year of owning a motorbike and my Gixxer isn't there  hopefully the reduced power to weight will let me scrape through. Otherwise I might get a postie bike for a year and save up for better batteries... Time will tell!

Lexus i'd probably go with 2 PM motors to get the acceleration you want , you could even use a couple of contactors to do series/parallel switching... I wonder If Jim Husted has made a twin Etek yet?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Well I just ordered my Etek-RT and kelly 72V 400A controller today...


you mean 200A? 400A is max.... but let us know how the performance is. 



> Lexus i'd probably go with 2 PM motors to get the acceleration you want


why not go with a larger motor.... like maybe something made to propel a 500lb motorcycle... like, a 6.7" ADC motor that can be had for just a LITTLE more than the etek, is rebuildable, handles more current, and doesn't have cooling problems as much as the small pancake motors?



> you could even use a couple of contactors to do series/parallel switching


Thats what some of the racers do. I know the Killacycle does that with the Zilla controller.



> I wonder If Jim Husted has made a twin Etek yet?


I remember him saying he doesn't even F*CK with those things. They're hard to rebuild, only a few places to get parts for. He said they're just not worth his time.

I say, if there's a concern with motor size, get an ADC or D&D 6.7" 

get either a A00-4009 or K91-4003. The A00 is about 10" long, and the K91 is 11.5. Fits in my VFR just fine.

Some more pictures here:
http://pics.evfr.net/


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Dual Eteks would mean you still get regen braking and you could have an electric 'two speed'.

I can understand rebuilding such a small, relatively cheap motor would probably rack up the labour costs pretty quick, It would be cool to see a Siamese version though.

400A is the 1 min rating, 300 for 3 mins, 200 continuous... I only wanted 300A but I went with the 400 just so I can sustain it longer (and because I heard they may not put out the full power that well). It was worth $70 to be a bit more certain of performance. My amp draw at cruising speed won't be more than around 100 so I should be fine.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, there's the option for sepex if you want regen. They've got 6.7" versions of that too.... starting for just under $1000
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_sepex.php

I just hate to see people adding the inefficiencies of 2 motors together. Then there's the issue of the cycle life of the contactor that is doing the series/parallel switching. They're not really meant to be high torque at high rpm motors. Even the new ones. They're great motors for smaller stuff, but if you want high performance and long range, you should move up to something that will handle both, with only the inefficiency of 1 motor.

I've got a sepex controller sitting and waiting for a motor. Just need to source one from EMS or someone. I know that D&D had a matching one for me for just around $600. I got the controller from a friend (Its a brand new GEM GE 72V 400A sepex controller). This is my next stop.


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## Mustang101 (Apr 17, 2008)

Emoto,
What is the acceleration like on your bike? You use a Mars motor right? My Etek has great acceleration even at 48V, if you don't have a good grip it will throw you almost off the backend. I've let some of my friends drive it and they all told me that they were suprised by it's acceleration. 
The reason I ask is because I have been thinking about getting a PMG-132. It's smaller and lighter than the PMACs motors. True that it costs twice as much, but if the acceleration of the PMACs is weak I'd rather spend an extra 500 and get something I'll be happy with. 

This is a picture of my Etek. I took it apart to clean it after a year of driving. Still runs great!


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## JohninCR (May 6, 2008)

I saw an E-moto with twin Eteks and a torque converter/CVT between the motors and the drive chain. He claimed gas bike type performance. That's the route I've decided to copy using a Comet TAV2, http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/218353A.html?id=3zqFpwR2. The 10 tooth output sprocket will go to a 72 tooth wheel sprocket, which should give me a top speed of 44mph at 4k rpms, and the variable gearing from 2.7:1 to .9 should give me nice acceleration and hill climbing ability.

Eteks have more peak power than my motor, so the TAV2 probably isn't beefy enough, but Comet has other models meant for higher power which are used on racing snowmobiles and sand rails for power out of the hole and good top end.

BTW, Comet told me that simply removing the springs from the front pulley will give the unit immediate engagement instead of the 2200rpms as used on gas engines. This is necessary since our electric motors idle at 0 unlike the smoke blowers.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Do you have a link of that bike? I'd love to see it. I haven't seen anyone using a CVT before.

And that chain of yours is going to be noisy if you use a 10 tooth sprocket, btw. What size chain? 

so, you're using a 7.2:1 (72 rear 10 front) main gear ratio, and a 2.7:1 up to 0.9:1 CVT?

So, you'll be going 19.44:1 down to 6.48? That seems a LITTLE high.... most guys out there do fine with a 5 or 6:1 ratio. I think you'd be happier maybe using the stock rear sprocket (lets say stock ratio is 3.38:1 with a 44 rear and 13 front). Then you'd be getting 9.126:1 down to 3.042:1. Something closer to that would be great. That'd pull you out of your seat at low speed, but would give you a higher top speed. 

I just don't think you'll need to have a 19.44:1 ratio.... ever. say 20 ftlbs of torque, that'd be like 400 at the rear sprocket, more than most gas bikes have. It could be dangerous, and you could start snapping chain/breaking things.

I don't think you need a 6:1 ratio AND the CVT.


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## JohninCR (May 6, 2008)

frodus said:


> Do you have a link of that bike? I'd love to see it. I haven't seen anyone using a CVT before.
> 
> And that chain of yours is going to be noisy if you use a 10 tooth sprocket, btw. What size chain?
> 
> ...


Lot's of hills here. In fact I have an almost 15° incline as soon as I'm out of my driveway. Plus mid 40's mph is plenty fast for me on 2 wheels, and it should put me right in a highest efficiency zone for my motor in the 30's where most of my in town riding will be.

Regarding dangerous torque, my programmable controller will handle how the juice is applied. If it's too jerky, I'll just smooth takeoff out by changing a controller setting.

Here's Ray Wong's twin Etek bike http://www.evalbum.com/716


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JohninCR said:


> Lot's of hills here. In fact I have an almost 15° incline as soon as I'm out of my driveway. Plus mid 40's mph is plenty fast for me on 2 wheels, and it should put me right in a highest efficiency zone for my motor in the 30's where most of my in town riding will be.
> 
> Regarding dangerous torque, my programmable controller will handle how the juice is applied. If it's too jerky, I'll just smooth takeoff out by changing a controller setting.
> 
> Here's Ray Wong's twin Etek bike http://www.evalbum.com/716


I've seen that.. forgot about him. I don't see much documentation on that bike, wish there was more out there.

even with a 6:1 ratio alone, you should be right on target... I'm just wondering what a 20:1 ratio would feel like. You might consider a larger front sprocket, because from everyone I've talked to about gearing, they say to stay away from the small 11,10,9 tooth front sprockets because of noise. I have a 13 tooth, and its ok, but I'm not using o-ring chain. 

I should have some video in the next week or so at 48V.

search for frodus on youtube, I have a video of the wheel spinning with a 13 front and 44 rear and an ADC motor.

Best of luck with the project... take lots of pics, I want to see how that CVT performs with an electric motor. Particularly with efficiency and slipping.


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## JohninCR (May 6, 2008)

Frodus,

I do have some method to my madness. My motor is less than an Etek, so I started with the top speed I wanted and backed in to sprocket ratios. Supposedly the motor was intended for a scooter to take 2 riders up to 50mph, but I'm probably a chinaman plus his girlfriend all by myself. While my electric bike is fine on the flats, I wish it had gearing to get up the hill after leaving my driveway. 

Another consideration is that I have a second smaller motor that does 17k rpms at 4.5hp, so I'd definitely need a big sprocket for it. That's another project though, with a low profile highly aerodynamic lightweight bike/motorcycle hybrid capable of highway speeds. It will definitely need some kind of gearing, for which this Comet unit is a cheap experiment.

Also, after I weave up to the front of traffic at a stoplight like all the scooters and motorcycles (perfectly acceptable here in Costa Rica), I want to have the ability to leave them in my dust in relative silence. This errand running bike should definitely be able to do that.

Re chain noise, without significant machining I'm stuck with the 10 teeth on the torq-a-verter. The only choices were 10 with #40/41 chain or 12 teeth and #35 chain, so I went with the heavier chain. 

I just want to prove the concept first and see how the belt holds up before getting too financially deep into the project. If it works well and it seems like I have excess acceleration and hill climbing ability, then I can modify that front sprocket to 14 or 15 teeth and quiet the chain as well as increase top speed.

John


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## Mustang101 (Apr 17, 2008)

I've been looking alot at the TMS 200 bike. It's made by Lifan a China bike. I don't mind a china bike if it's good quality. SO emoto, do you think your bike is good quality? I'm just worried about the frame cracking or breaking a few years down the road.
I really like the look of the bike, and the fact that it's a little weight full size bike. It's also cheap.


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## carismine35 (Jun 15, 2008)

what is the advantage of electric motorcycle and with gasoline one?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

carismine35 said:


> what is the advantage of electric motorcycle and with gasoline one?


No more gas
Better torque at 0rpm
able to "refuel" pretty much anywhere there's a normal AC plug
no emissions
flatter power curve than a gas engine
no more clutch needed
less maintenance
less moving parts to replace/repair
more efficient energy conversion
quiet (this could be bad too)
with solar or wind installed at your house, you can be off grid and drive essentially for free.

and plus, you get the great feeling of knowing that you're not a slave to the oil industry.


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## JohninCR (May 6, 2008)

frodus said:


> No more gas
> Better torque at 0rpm
> able to "refuel" pretty much anywhere there's a normal AC plug
> no emissions
> ...


For me, I'm just trying to get a step ahead. EV's are the future, especially once they get the electricity storage issue licked. Plus these days EcoGeeks get all the girls.

John


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## emoto (May 5, 2008)

Hi Mustang，

I'm plenty happy with the quality of the TMS. In general I believe that you "get what you pay for" - but for $650 - wow what a steal. The frame is steel and quite solid. I had to cut it up a fair amount for the batteries. I was impressed with the quality (though of course it's not as good as a CBR, etc.)

Hey Lexus,

Thanks for the mag cover - very nice 

Best,

-Lennon


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