# Possible outlet setup



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

our local seattle EVA (SEVA) has members that are advocating the use of similar RV / Marina shore power boxes for efficient and flexible EV charging so I suspect you are on the right track.

When I get around to putting in a permanent charging station in my new place, I will probably use something similar. Just make sure everything is GFCI protected up down and sideways.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey cool, forget the OEMs. We'll make our own EV charging standards. 

My friend with the Mini E already pulled his high amp charging cable out of the (professional looking but actually useless) wall box and got a 14-30 and a 14-50 plug for the end of it. He stopped into an RV campground for a quick charge and a movie break on his way down from NJ to the Power of DC the other week. 

I know the 20a outlet on this box is already GFCI protected. Should I replace the breakers in this box with GFCI ones or put the protected breaker in the main box?


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

WRT: plugin standards.

If the RV crowd already have standardized plugs for their vehicles, why does the SAE think they need a different standard (SAE 1772) for PHEVs & BEVs?

Will RVs change to the new 1772 std?

Is the RV plug unsafe?


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

It can work but the real question or problem is does the electrical service and distribution have the capacity and ratings for continuous duty load factor. Most home or residential service are 100 to 200 amp intermittent service. For example if you look at a typical utility transformer for a home with a 200 amp service, the transformer size is 15 to 20 KVA. Do the math it does not add up. You can certainly charge the EV battery alone with 40 amp load no problem. But if your AC, electric dryer, or oven are on and you will likely drop the transformer fuse. Add the second EV and your are certainly over loaded.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

RE Farmer said:


> WRT: plugin standards.
> 
> If the RV crowd already have standardized plugs for their vehicles, why does the SAE think they need a different standard (SAE 1772) for PHEVs & BEVs?
> 
> ...


The problem is continuous vs intermittent duty cycles.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Sunking said:


> It can work but the real question or problem is does the electrical service and distribution have the capacity and ratings for continuous duty load factor. Most home or residential service are 100 to 200 amp intermittent service. For example if you look at a typical utility transformer for a home with a 200 amp service, the transformer size is 15 to 20 KVA. Do the math it does not add up. You can certainly charge the EV battery alone with 40 amp load no problem. But if your AC, electric dryer, or oven are on and you will likely drop the transformer fuse. Add the second EV and your are certainly over loaded.



Thanks for the information. This box is a bit overkill right now, but those limits might be an issue in the future.

Of all the EVs in the area the Mini pushes the envelope the most. It will suck up 50 amp no problem, but it can be set lower. My car and one other use 20 amp chargers. The rest are sub-15 amps.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

I assume the 20kVA transformer rating is the product of rms current and voltage. Is that correct? I believe the current draw stated for most on-board chargers is current magnitude, correct?

Tom


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I picked the box up a while ago but I'm just getting around to hooking it up. I already picked up a 2-pole 100a breaker for the main box. What cable(s) should I pick up to wire this correctly? The run will be about 10-12 feet, half inside half outside.










































Let me know if you want to see a larger version of any of the pics.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is without a doubt one of the best ideas I have ever seen posted here. By doing this we won't have to wait for government or detroit to get their act together. True pioneering. The way it was meant to be

I can see how small business owners might consider doing this as well.

Sorry, I don't have much to add other than I think its a great idea.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

BWH said:


> I picked the box up a while ago but I'm just getting around to hooking it up. I already picked up a 2-pole 100a breaker for the main box. What cable(s) should I pick up to wire this correctly? The run will be about 10-12 feet, half inside half outside.


Depends on what you mean by "half-inside half-outside". If you are running the circuit underground without conduit, you will need 4 wire UF (Underground Feed) cable that contain 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground wire. If you are running single conductor wires inside conduit, it can be THW, THWN, THHN single conductor wire or other types shown in the table linked below.

Since it's such a short run, I'm thinking your wire for this 100A feed can be #3 AWG single conductor copper wire (or #2 AWG if you want to over-kill it just a bit) provided all your other devices are rated no less than 75*C. If your using UF it might need to be #1 AWG copper if the cable is only rated at 60*C.

Here's a table to help: http://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm

One thing about the installation. I'm a little confused by the copper strap near the neutral wire bar and the black piece of (metal or plastic?) the neutral bar is mounted on.

If the black piece that the neutral bar is mounted on is metal, the green bonding screw needs to come out if this panel is a sub-panel fed off your main service entrance panel. 

Actually to avoid confusion, the green bonding screw should be removed altogether since it's obvious this panel is not your service entrance panel.

Current NEC code requires that only the service entrance panel (very first panel) have the neutral and grounding bars bonded together. All the other panels downstream now require that the neutral and grounding bars be isolated from each other.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Depends on what you mean by "half-inside half-outside". If you are running the circuit underground without conduit, you will need 4 wire UF (Underground Feed) cable that contain 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground wire. If you are running single conductor wires inside conduit, it can be THW, THWN, THHN single conductor wire or other types shown in the table linked below.
> 
> Since it's such a short run, I'm thinking your wire for this 100A feed can be #3 AWG single conductor copper wire (or #2 AWG if you want to over-kill it just a bit) provided all your other devices are rated no less than 75*C. If your using UF it might need to be #1 AWG copper if the cable is only rated at 60*C.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the helpful info tj4fa.  I went out after work and picked up some 4 wire UF cable. The line is going to run from the basement, through the wall and to the box on the side of the house. I was thinking about using conduit, but decided to simplify things.

The neutral wire bar is isolated from the rest of the box by the black plastic sheet and block it is mounted to. If this was a service entrance box you would bend the copper strap over to the bonding screw to connect it with ground.

Since neutral and ground are bonded in the main box am I correct in thinking that neutral gets connect to the ground bar in the basement?




david85 said:


> This is without a doubt one of the best ideas I have ever seen posted here. By doing this we won't have to wait for government or detroit to get their act together. True pioneering. The way it was meant to be
> 
> I can see how small business owners might consider doing this as well.
> 
> Sorry, I don't have much to add other than I think its a great idea.


I don't know how pioneering it is, RV parks have been using these plugs for decades now. 

Check out this quote from the SAE:



> Although the proposed standards (J1772) technically would make it possible to directly plug into a 240-volt outlet at home, Duvall said an additional connector is desirable for safety reasons.


My box has an additional safety device as well. To get the juice flowing you flip the switch on the breaker to the 'on' position. Theirs just uses a relay to flip the switch on inside the box. A little more labor intensive, but not all that hard. 

Considering I paid about $200 total and CC is going to charge $2,000 (+ installation) I think I came out ahead for now.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

BWH said:


> Since neutral and ground are bonded in the main box am I correct in thinking that neutral gets connect to the ground bar in the basement?


You're welcome. 

If you have your main panel in the basement, you connect the neutral wire from the new EV panel to the neutral bar and the grounding wire to the grounding bar.

If the main panel is in the basement after the meter pan (see illustration below), there is likely a bonding screw bonding the neutral bar to the back of the metal panelbox and the grounding bar is directly bonded to the metal panelbox as well.

Your new EV sub-panel (not shown in the diagram below) will be a fed from the main panel. I would go about this by using a 100A two-pole single-throw circuit breaker installed in the main panel feeding the new wire to your EV panel breakers and terminal bars. This will ensure your new wire is properly protected for your EV panel and provide a service disconnect means for it as well.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

BWH said:


> I don't know how pioneering it is, RV parks have been using these plugs for decades now.


Well, yes....but thats not really what I meant. What you are doing is offering a specific charging station for electric cars in your area. And its so simple (much easier than refining gasoline in your back yard lol).


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> If you have your main panel in the basement, you connect the neutral wire from the new EV panel to the neutral bar and the grounding wire to the grounding bar.
> 
> ...


Helpful information and an illustration to go along with it. *dances a jig* 

Now that I have everything I need I just have to find time to put it together. 



david85 said:


> Well, yes....but thats not really what I meant. What you are doing is offering a specific charging station for electric cars in your area. And its so simple (much easier than refining gasoline in your back yard lol).


Sorry about that.  I should know better than to try to be humorous at 1:00am.

Actually this started with the Power of DC. My friend with the Mini E drove from here to Hagerstown, MD and back with just a stop at an RV park to charge. From there is was a short jump to, hey let's match our home plugs to leverage a preexisting charging infrastructure. We're slowly convincing other EEVC members to do it too. 

This will be the third box put up, but the first with multiple plugs (I have a bigger driveway ). It would be great to get everyone on board since it is a cheaper (and available) alternative to the OEMs offerings.

As to it being easier than refining gasoline in my back yard, I live in New Jersey. They _are_ refining gasoline in my backyard. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...759,-75.256348&spn=0.216686,0.609055&t=h&z=11


It's really fun when they blow themselves up. http://www.nj.com/south/index.ssf/2009/05/refinery_fire_contained_after.html


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Here's a better picture:

Oh and I forgot. The breakers or receptacles in the sub-feed panel need to be GFCI if they aren't already for personal protection especially if you have an on-board PFC non-isolated type charger.

30A GE TYPE THQL GFI CB - http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000HEIVXC/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

50A GE TYPE THQL GFI CB - http://cgi.ebay.com/THQL2150GFI-ge-...mZ270313836900QQcategoryZ104232QQcmdZViewItem


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

BWH said:


> Sorry about that.  I should know better than to try to be humorous at 1:00am.
> 
> Actually this started with the Power of DC. My friend with the Mini E drove from here to Hagerstown, MD and back with just a stop at an RV park to charge. From there is was a short jump to, hey let's match our home plugs to leverage a preexisting charging infrastructure. We're slowly convincing other EEVC members to do it too.
> 
> ...


So you stay up till 1 AM too?
Thats exactly what I meant in that you are bringing a new and powerful idea to your area. I guess its not new, but the fact that you can do it without having to wait for government or other outside funding is a huge deal even if it may not seem like much right now.

I would consider putting a charging station at our place, but as you know, I am the only EV'er around so it would be kinda pointless.

And dang... exploding refineries? you get all the fun in 'Jersey lol.

The only thing missing from this setup is a kwh counter for each charger but that can come later.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Here's a better picture:
> 
> Oh and I forgot. The breakers or receptacles in the sub-feed panel need to be GFCI if they aren't already for personal protection especially if you have an on-board PFC non-isolated type charger.
> 
> ...


GFCI would be a good thing to have anyway. I want anyone who uses this to be safe. 

*Quickly hides the exposed wires and pool of water *

Thanks for those links! The cheapest I found the GE breakers were $199 & $46.50 



david85 said:


> So you stay up till 1 AM too?
> Thats exactly what I meant in that you are bringing a new and powerful idea to your area. I guess its not new, but the fact that you can do it without having to wait for government or other outside funding is a huge deal even if it may not seem like much right now.
> 
> I would consider putting a charging station at our place, but as you know, I am the only EV'er around so it would be kinda pointless.
> ...


Yep, regularly. It's the only way I can get things done around here. 

That is a good way of looking at it. Granted it would be more expensive if you had to put in a long run, but for a bit over $300 you have a quick, safe, multi-plug option charging station. Plus you could do it for much less if you went with fewer plugs and a lower amperage.

With this box http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 you could put it together for under $150. 

That's a chicken/egg issue Dave.  I would absolutely put a charging station at your work. Then I would hang a really big sign over it "If you had an electric car you could have plugged it in here". 

If you were going to charge for plugging in you could certainly add some small KWh counters to the box. http://www.kuebler.com/english2/prod-zlr-zez.html 

The scariest part of the fire was that we were driving back from Pennsylvania with my grandparents around then. If we had been fifteen minutes later we would have been next to the refinery or on the bridge when it blew.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

BWH said:


> That's a chicken/egg issue Dave.


Touche. Guess I walked right into that one. Can't wait to see how this works out.


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Well the GFCI breakers should arrive this week. But I have some bathroom work that needs doing and I'm moving the Saturn out to an automotive welding shop to get the motor mounts made.

Hopefully I'll get some time to put it in before next weekend. 

Do you guys think this should go in the Wiki? A cheap, safe, waterproof multi/single car charging setup that will also allow you to charge at any willing RV campground in North America.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Do you guys think this should go in the Wiki? A cheap, safe, waterproof multi/single car charging setup that will also allow you to charge at any willing RV campground in North America.[/quote]


It's got my vote. I hadn't even got to the point of thinking about how I'm going to set my home charging outlet. This is a simple and reasonably priced system that most DIY people can do without endangering themselves, with the caveat that a permit from the local building department should be obtained.

Mike


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Well it's finally in. 

Between near constant rain and gathering myself for an extended trip it took forever to get the box hooked up. I still haven't called the inspectors yet.  I'll get to that when I come back.


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## dataman19 (Oct 7, 2009)

How about a credit card reader?
..
Then you would have all the makings of a "Public Charging station"...
..
Actually, the cost for electricity could be calculated at 150% of the utility charges and averaged out in 5-minute blocks.
..
Then you would have a simple Changer Computer (Same as in an ATM machine/Juke Box/Vending Machine) to handle the transaction.
..
A DSL/Dial-up line to do the ATM Transaction..
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A timer circuit for timing the connection..
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A sold state switch to control the individual outlets..
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Now all you will need is a Meter Box, and a Utility Account.
..
This would allow you to defray the cost of operating the station, and still allow just about anyone access (at least anyone with a credit card)...
..
The down side of taking dollar bills is not the complexity - it is the ability to keep the thieves away..
..
Now we just need someone to come up with a standard Charging station.
..
Preferably one that will charge two or four vehicles at a time, and one that will charge multiple voltages (I would suggest a 120VAC and 220VAV charging station - because most EVs have their own on-board charger set-up).
..
Just food for thought..
dataman19


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