# Adaptor plate for VW beetle



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

What type of VW TA do you have? Model and year? Also photos would help.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> What type of VW TA do you have? Model and year? Also photos would help.


It’s just the VW air cooled transaxle that’s on a dune buggy.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> What type of VW TA do you have? Model and year? Also photos would help.


It’s an early 60,s transaxle for a beetle


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Is this the problem?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVFgjupf1n4
Read the comments for the answer to your question. Most people don't realize the trans. input shaft centerline needs to be aligned to within ~0.003 -.005"(0.08 -0.13mm) of the engine or motor centerline. This alignment is done with a machined step in the case of the VW and usually with dowel pin by other manufactures. Without this alignment, such as with the slap it on and pray method used by some novice DIYers, gears and /or bearings can be damaged in the trans.. And, in some cases motor shafts broken.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GE11 said:


> HOn the VW transaxle the input shaft seems to have some wiggle to it.. why is this?? I am use to the Ford parts and transmissions and I don’t see this wiggle that I see with the VW transaxle. Why does this input shaft have this wiggle ??


With many transmission designs, the transmission depends on the pilot bearing in the crankshaft to support and align the engine end of the input shaft. That's why it "wiggles" when not mounted to the engine, and why alignment is critical.

What Ford transmissions are you familiar with?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

GE11 said:


> If I had a good and aligned shaft coupler why is it hard to line the motor with the bell housing? I mean the coupler is rigged enough to keep this aligned until to mark the screw holes why is this not good enough?


It's doubtful if the level of alignment necessary could be achieved by this method. One good thing about the VW is that it's fairly easy to machine an adapter plate to set up the proper alignment. Talk to a machinist.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> Is this the problem?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVFgjupf1n4
> Read the comments for the answer to your question. Most people don't realize the trans. input shaft centerline needs to be aligned to within ~0.003 -.005"(0.08 -0.13mm) of the engine or motor centerline. This alignment is done with a machined step in the case of the VW and usually with dowel pin by other manufactures. Without this alignment, such as with the slap it on and pray method used by some novice DIYers, gears and /or bearings can be damaged in the trans.. And, in some cases motor shafts broken.


Yes this is exactly it... see how this shaft wobbles?
This is what I’m saying there is a ton of play there... but then people are saying this has to be exact and all.. I can’t figure why??


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

GE11 said:


> Yes this is exactly it... see how this shaft wobbles?
> This is what I’m saying there is a ton of play there... but then people are saying this has to be exact and all.. I can’t figure why??


Even with this apparent movement, the shaft still needs to be located(dialed in, aligned - usually within 0.003- 0.005"of the motor centerline) and well supported as with the pilot bearing. Otherwise, the bearing and gear problems mentioned before might occur.

Many transmissions have this design feature. It's not a flaw(assuming it's not worn out). It's just a simple, convenient design that requires a pilot bearing to locate and support the outboard end of the transmission input shaft. Also, as noted before, the engine(or electric motor)output shaft needs to be closely aligned (side to side and angle wise) with this input shaft. Typically transmission designers, to simplify the design(and save costs), will incorporate a pilot bearing near or in the end of the ICE crankshaft to provide enough alignment and support for the transmission input shaft. If you want to attach an electric motor to the transmission, you do not get a pass on having to incorporate this alignment and support in your build.

OEMs and custom builders go to great lengths to assure this alignment and support by having pilot bearings and carefully located alignment features. In the case of this VW, there is a machined step. Most other makes have carefully located dowels, dowel pins. If you still don't understand this, talk to someone at a good transmission shop.

Here's another video discussing the alignment issues with an ICE. the issues are the same for an electric motor and its adapter plate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxNn4qk_KlM

If you want to just slap a motor on the transmission without taking care of these alignment and support issues - go ahead. Lots of people have done it. And, many have ruined transmissions and have had other problems


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GE11 said:


> Yes this is exactly it... see how this shaft wobbles?
> This is what I’m saying there is a ton of play there... but then people are saying this has to be exact and all.. I can’t figure why??


The transaxle's input shaft is not properly supported at the input side (rear, in a Beetle) of the transaxle - it just goes though an oil seal. You can move it around by hand when it is not turning and not attached to anything. That doesn't mean that it doesn't need support when it is turning and transmitting power, only that the thing which supports it (the pilot bearing, as electro wrks explained) is not there when everything it taken apart. There is no joint on the other end of this shaft to allow operation at any angle than precisely in line while transmitting power.

This is normal for many transmissions, including traditional longitudinal manual transmissions for front-engine rear-drive cars.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Lots of people have done it. And, many have ruined transmissions and have had other problems


How many is "many"?

So far I know of 2. Not saying that's the total amount, surely it's higher, but, I wonder what the actual rate of failure is.

75% fail?
25% fail?
5% fail?
1% fail?

If someone said "I did the research and it seems like the failure rate is X" and that was any of those above numbers, I wouldn't doubt it. Really just don't have much of any context.

Been hearing for years that guys have been doing it and suggesting to other novices that they do it, and until it came up recently here that there's been failures before (the 2 examples that came up from years ago), hadn't heard of one breaking.

Not arguing, just honestly curious what you think the failure rate should/would be, and, what percentage of builds you think you've heard of that failed (actual incidents should be far higher than reported incidents, curious about both those numbers).


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't normally agree with Matt
But before I decided to go direct drive (and make my own adapter) I had decided to fit a ford gearbox and make my own adapter plate

Yes you would have to be careful in making sure that it was correctly aligned - but that level of precision is not difficult to achieve if you are careful and use simple measurement gear


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Duncan said:


> I don't normally agree with Matt


I suppose I should be clearer.

I'm not even positing an opinion, yet. I had an opinion earlier, based on a great number of builds that built their plates themselves and on the instructions of knowledgeable and experienced people in the community, and my own ease of experience fabricating aluminum with basic woodworking tools commonly available for most home builders. But then a few people pooh poohed it and implied it would be nearly impossible and likely to fail unless one was a machinist in a machine shop. So now I'm absent an opinion and asking questions.

I'm not being passive-aggressive in my questions, I'm actually curious for people to flesh out how they formed their opinion. How often something is known to fail, and suppose how often it fails and we never hear about it, compared to the number of people who tried it. When someone says "many", what's their sample size, and what, to them, is "many" failures? To an automaker, 1% is disastrously "many". To a homebuilder, 10-20% might be okay. To someone who thinks their skills are above average, maybe even 50% failure might be okay if they can reliably put themselves in the upper 50%.

Sometimes you have to scale people's opinions too. Even if everyone can agree on knowledge you'll still have different opinions. Every community has people who seem to make everything seem complicated and impossible. You'll see that in the welding community for example, or the cycling community, or the knife-making community. Heck the knitting community probably has people like that. Sometimes those people are absolutely worth the average person listening to, sometimes they're laughably worth ignoring. 

I find that the people who say "can't", 'impossible", and the conversation ends there, are usually not productive, they're generally naysayers or just want to feel superior. The people who are positive in their warnings, and take time to teach how someone can do something, and what to pay attention to, are the ones worth listening to. Though that's not a strict rule, not everyone has the time.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow this is some great feed back! I thank all of you and encourage more of it!

Let me ask you this ... I see some of these adapter plates discussions talk about and alignment ring or rim if you would that matches up to the bell housing of the VW. Like in a discussion somemone mentioned a 282mm ring. But when I go to look at different adapter plates for sale, it appears some have this ring and others don’t. 

Has anyone used either and had issues? I would ask, has anyone used a plate without this ring and had issues??
The more modern bell housing are not round and don’t have this ring like the VW engine and transmission, they use dowl pins.

Anyway has anyone used the Wilderness ev Adaptor plate and had any issues??

Thanks for all the response!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GE11 said:


> Let me ask you this ... I see some of these adapter plates discussions talk about and alignment ring or rim if you would that matches up to the bell housing of the VW. Like in a discussion somemone mentioned a 282mm ring. But when I go to look at different adapter plates for sale, it appears some have this ring and others don’t.
> 
> Has anyone used either and had issues? I would ask, has anyone used a plate without this ring and had issues??
> The more modern bell housing are not round and don’t have this ring like the VW engine and transmission, they use dowl pins.


Are you talking about just adapter plates for transaxles used with air-cooled VWs, or all transmissions? Because you're right - typical bellhousings (old or new) are not round and are aligned by dowels though precise holes.




GE11 said:


> Anyway has anyone used the Wilderness ev Adaptor plate and had any issues??


Wilderness EV lists their kit contents as including a "Generic Adaptor Plate". I had no idea what that would be... a random chunk of aluminum plate, from which a machinist can make an adapter? I looked at the "installation instructions", and incredibly that's all they supply. It's a bit like pointing someone at a lumber yard and saying "there, that's a generic house kit... you'll have to cut some of the wood yourself".


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

brian_ said:


> Are you talking about just adapter plates for transaxles used with air-cooled VWs, or all transmissions? Because you're right - typical bellhousings (old or new) are not round and are aligned by dowels though precise holes.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilderness EV lists their kit contents as including a "Generic Adaptor Plate". I had no idea what that would be... a random chunk of aluminum plate, from which a machinist can make an adapter? I looked at the "installation instructions", and incredibly that's all they supply. It's a bit like pointing someone at a lumber yard and saying "there, that's a generic house kit... you'll have to cut some of the wood yourself".


Wilderness EV is the absolute bottom of the barrel. Their adapters are a chunk of steel plate cut with a torch. Yuck!

Real Nice: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477959

Most cars use two precision dowels to center the bell housing to the engine. Air cooled VW's are different and have a large groove about 1 foot diameter machined into the rear of the transaxle to center the engine.

Just purchase an adapter from Canadian EV and be done with it. Don't cheap out with the adapter. 

End of discussion.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> It's a bit like pointing someone at a lumber yard and saying "there, that's a generic house kit... you'll have to cut some of the wood yourself".


I mean they cut the tree down for you, what more do you want? It's practically cabinetry.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

So is it possible that a number of the failures are just do to the nature that the motor has too much torque??
Or at least more torque than the ICE


It seems easier to just attach the motor straight to the differential..


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

GE11 said:


> So is it possible that a number of the failures are just do to the nature that the motor has too much torque??
> Or at least more torque than the ICE


Not likely. The types of failures (few as they may be) that I have read about here are not due to high torque.



GE11 said:


> It seems easier to just attach the motor straight to the differential..


Yes, but speaking of torque... a transmission multiplies torque, so you need an unusually large motor to make do with only the final drive (differential) gear reduction, and no gear reduction (torque multiplication) by a transmission.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I suppose I should be clearer.
> 
> I'm not even positing an opinion, yet. I had an opinion earlier, based on a great number of builds that built their plates themselves and on the instructions of knowledgeable and experienced people in the community, and my own ease of experience fabricating aluminum with basic woodworking tools commonly available for most home builders. But then a few people pooh poohed it and implied it would be nearly impossible and likely to fail unless one was a machinist in a machine shop. So now I'm absent an opinion and asking questions.
> 
> ...




OK, let's get back to basics here since there seem to be a lot of bad assumptions and misinformation. Can we assume that this information is correct?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxNn4qk_KlM


If you believe this info is correct, then the alignment called out for in this video is about equivalent to the thickness of a piece of paper: https://www.google.com/search?q=thickness+of+paper&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab


Does anybody seriously think they can line up an electric motor with a transmission to this accuracy by feel and eye alone without the use of precision measuring tools? Or, the use of precision alignment features(like dowel pins) that OEMs or good (not WildernessEV!) aftermarket adapter plates have? I've been doing this kind of work for over 30+ years now, and there is no way I would even attempt it.

Some people make the assumption that since aluminum can be worked with ordinary woodworking tools, that's all you need to make a proper adapter plate. Wood working tools are not nearly accurate enough to do this. The alignment needed is equivalent to thickness of a sheet of paper, 0.003-0.005". Come on, get real!

Matt, years ago I made assumptions a lot like yours on this issue. I thought that all that was needed for an adapter plate was something you could bolt onto the transmission and move around by hand to "feel" the correct alignment. This is because it seemed simple and that's what some people were doing and initially reported it worked for them. Sounds like where you are now, doesn't it.

Then, some people without the precision alignment features, started reporting problems. Grinding, noisy transmissions. Broken transmissions. Worn out couplers. Clutch problems. Even broken motor shafts! I don't know the numbers that had the problems. But, there were many on this and other sites. Some gave up and were never heard from again. If you want some idea of the problem, look it up and do your own research. 

Some people's reaction to the problem was to sink into a complete state of denial. Water in the oil, oil level too low, bad metallurgy, bad transmission, the electric motor is defective, mounting bolts must have loosened - were some of the excuses. Some replaced or rebuilt their transmissions 2 or 3 times - still not understanding the basic alignment issues. The sad part is, if they had installed a good aftermarket adapter plate from the beginning, they could have saved themselves a lot of expense and grief.


Major and others first pointed out the now obvious alignment issues as discussed in the first video. As I carefully looked into the issue, I realized they were right. I suspect if you and others carefully look at the issue, you will come to the same conclusion.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> OK, let's get back to basics here since there seem to be a lot of bad assumptions and misinformation. Can we assume that this information is correct?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxNn4qk_KlM
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody seriously think they can line up an electric motor with a transmission to this accuracy by feel and eye alone without the use of precision measuring tools?


Yes - Me!

I see no reason at all NOT to be able to do that
A dial gauge should be in your toolbox anyway and you can buy one for about $15

The system is simple you start off the way the guy in the video did and you then tap your home made adapter until it is in the correct position - then you drill through both pieces of your adapter to make your own "dowel holes" to be super finicky run a hand reamer down the holes

It's NOT "Rocket Science" anybody should be able to do that 
5 thou is over 1/10th of a mm - NOT "high precision"

You can't "slap it together"
But anybody with the nous to build a car should have no problem with making an adapter plate


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Can we assume that this information is correct?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxNn4qk_KlM


I agree that that info is optimum. But optimum for a race/performance/edge case vehicle, or a vehicle meant to stay on the road 30 years. As to whether 5 thou is a strict maximum or whether 20 thou would be a practical equivalent that is just fine in many cases, I don't know.

There is a saying in the health industry that goes "Complicate for Profit". Meaning, almost everyone in an industry has vested interest in making everything seem like it's impossible to do unless you hire an expert. Heaven forbid should you use the sub-optimum number of reps, or have 3 fewer grams of protein in your 5th micro-meal of the day, blah blah. Maybe for Olympians. Everyone else, just move more, eat, less, lift heavy things and you'll get 99% the same results.

Does everyone get a torque wrench out when rotating their tires, or do they use the tire iron and snug it good enough? What happens when you ask an "expert" though, and what do they tell you? Oh gotta take it into the shop, it's essential that the nuts be torqued precisely with their instruments.

I'm not saying these guys are wrong, I'm saying I wouldn't know if they were wrong.

Another interesting bit of data I wish I could see... if you took an average 10-year old car off the road, slapped on a dial indicator and measured... how bad is an average vehicle that no one would think twice about?

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/tr...gnment-eliminates-side-loading-wear-and-tear/ <-- These guys say make adjustments if not within 10 thou. So right there that's 200% difference among "experts".

Also food for thought, how many degrees of backlash is there in a splined shaft, and what does that translate to for potential thou of slop?

20 thou is easy.
10 thou is difficult.
5 thou is... certainly challenging.



> Does anybody seriously think they can line up an electric motor with a transmission to this accuracy by feel and eye alone without the use of precision measuring tools?


Whoa. Who said hand and eye?

Sure as hell no, you're not lining it up within 5 thou by just guessing your alignment by feel or fingernail. You'll have to take measurements.

Though, 5 thou is not an insignificant lip, you could easily feel that with your fingers and line up better than that. Like, if I gave you two matching shafts and asked you to line them up by feel, I bet you'd have no problem just using finger pressure to align them to within 1 thou, let alone 5. You can feel a 1 thou lip. That doesn't translate here, because there's no way you're shaping the entire exterior of a plate within 5 thou, that's not going to be your alignment method. But just for scale's sale, 5 thou is reachable by hand.



> Or, the use of precision alignment features(like dowel pins) that OEMs or good (not WildernessEV!) aftermarket adapter plates have?


What's stopping a home builder from using 2 dowel pins themselves?

Like, if they have the ability to make precision measurements, they would obviously use practices to measure their result.



> Some people make the assumption that since aluminum can be worked with ordinary woodworking tools, that's all you need to make a proper adapter plate. Wood working tools are not nearly accurate enough to do this. The alignment needed is equivalent to thickness of a sheet of paper, 0.003-0.005". Come on, get real!


In what way are woodworking tools insufficiently accurate?

You already have the existing transmission. You're not free-handing it. You're mirroring it.

And you're not supporting anything on the plate, the plate is just for alignment. You need it precisely lined up where it bolts to the motor, precisely lined up where it bolts to the tranny, and then a hole in the middle big enough for the coupler. You're not machining that hole within 5 thou, you're just cutting a hole.

A rough cardboard template would suffice to get the shape of the plate, and that can be cut out as sloppy as you'd like, it's just aesthetics. You could probably get most of it with a circular saw if you felt like it. It could be a rectangle if you wanted.

An aluminum plate purchased from stock will be sufficiently precisely flat and parallel to ensure squareness between tranny and motor, so that's not a concern.

The precision comes down to the dowel pin and bolt holes. Round holes can be drilled easily in aluminum with wood bits. I'm fairly confident I could chase existing holes in a bell housing within 1 thou or less. If I had to I'd use transfer punches but, just clamping the plate to the bell housing and chasing would probably be easiest and most accurate. Really, the dowel pins are the only ones that need to be precise, the others will have wiggle room from the bolt threads. Put a nut on a bolt and you've got more than 5 thou of play in it.

I guess my point is, you're not machining surfaces. You're only accurately aligning holes.



> I thought that all that was needed for an adapter plate was something you could bolt onto the transmission and move around by hand to "feel" the correct alignment. This is because it seemed simple and that's what some people were doing and initially reported it worked for them.


You don't think you could feel 5 thou (or 10, or maybe 20+ depending on source) of runout on a spinning shaft?

I don't know that that's the best method, but, bolting one side up, clamping the other side tight-ish, and then using a rubber mallet to nudge things until they feel smoothest... I can see getting within 5 thou. Then you just gotta stop it, drill your matching alignment holes, pin it, then drill your bolt holes.



> Then, some people without the precision alignment features, started reporting problems. Grinding, noisy transmissions. Broken transmissions. Worn out couplers. Clutch problems. Even broken motor shafts! I don't know the numbers that had the problems. But, there were many on this and other sites. Some gave up and were never heard from again.


In the example that Major dug up last week, the build quality (that he paid for) was abysmal. Going by the rest of the work they did, the guy might not have lined it up within 1/16th, let alone 5 thou.

It's hard to say how good you have to be, because we don't know how bad these builds were.



> If you want some idea of the problem, look it up and do your own research.


I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you've formed a strong opinion on it based on what you've read, so I'm asking you to flesh out that opinion so I can better appreciate what you mean by "many". "Many" to you might be "few" to me or someone else.

I mean, don't go making an exact list, I'm just asking for a ballpark of what you'd say your experience is. You've formed an opinion, I'm curious what you figure the rates are that led to that opinion.

25% failure? 75% failure?

Are we talking, you figure 20 builds out of 100 you read that did this were failing?

That kind of thing.

The number for me, before last week, was 0 out of, I dunno, many dozens? 100? But Major easily recalled 1, which in that thread linked to a second. (And those were silver bullets, not "some transmission problems", definitively mis-alignment cases).

It would also be fairly common for people to not use their EVs much back in the lead-acid days (because they got 1/4 the performance they bragged they would and then never used them much), or to not follow through or report problems (just giving up and selling it). So, the problem is surely bigger than reported.



> Major and others first pointed out the now obvious alignment issues as discussed in the first video. As I carefully looked into the issue, I realized they were right. I suspect if you and others carefully look at the issue, you will come to the same conclusion.


No disagreement that it's important.

It's not the variables, it's their magnitudes.

...

Playing devil's advocate here a bit. I'm not necessarily saying it's as viable as I thought it was a couple weeks ago, just fleshing out what the challenges are and aren't.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Some input on the subject. You may well be dealing with a tranny pattern looking similar to this.










How does one locate the dowel holes to the shaft center within .005"t.i.r. on the plate stock to machine and then transfer to the opposite side to locate motor mount? Answer. Right tools, equipment, instruments and working knowledge of geometric dimensioning and true positional tolerancing such as learned in ANSI Y14.5. Realize that this is not a 2 dimensional exercise but 3. And not only concentricity but parallelism and perpendicularity are involved. 

Machine designers often discover that it is impossible to achieve these tight tolerances on assemblies through accuracy on component parts. Often other measures are used such as elimination of middle bearings or turning face pilot and register surface after final assembly. Neither a pretty solution.

Regards,

major


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/tr...gnment-eliminates-side-loading-wear-and-tear/ <-- These guys say make adjustments if not within 10 thou. So right there that's 200% difference among "experts".



Why don't you just stop the BS. You obviously have no idea what you're writing about. In your own example, the author says: 

"This really is about diameter, not radius, where you take the 0.010-inch figure and divide it in half to achieve the correction number." 

If you're having trouble doing the math, that's 0.005",not 0.010" as you incorrectly write. Did you even take the time to read and understand your own example? The 0.005 maximum misalignment is pretty much standard for most vehicles, not just race cars. Why don't you give us all a break and stop the BS?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Yes - Me!
> 
> I see no reason at all NOT to be able to do that
> A dial gauge should be in your toolbox anyway and you can buy one for about $15
> ...


The precision measuring tool I'm referring to(and you are too) is a dial indicator(gauge, as you say), as used in the video. Matt seems to think it can be done by feel and eye alone.
The technique you describe to properly set-up the adapter plate could be used if you had access to an ICE that matched the transmission being used. It would not be easy to accurately transfer the position of the reamed dowel pin holes to the plate from the ICE, so that they matched up to the ones on the transmission. But, with some careful work, it could probably be done.


It would be a more difficult job if you only had the transmission to work with. More so, if the transmission had a floppy input shaft like the OP's(remember him?)


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Hey guys,

These are some excellent and helpful responses and I am thankful for the help. Just I’m not sure which way to go.
I did run across this the guy wants $1500.00 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hDSDcXsa9RY

For everything including transmission minus the frame.. it includes motor, adapter plate, hub, controller, contractor ect....
What do y’all think?? I could get this and forget about trying to make an adaptor plate..The only thing is a have 3 forklift motors that I don’t know what to do with..

Thanks again for your help..


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Just tossing out some more data...

http://camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml

So these guys took the same bell-housing and mounted it to 3 different engine blocks and then measured the alignment.

First was off by 0.019"
Second was off by 0.010"
Third was off by 0.008"

That's just, out of the box and using the alignment pins.

They also show a wrecked throw-out bearing that was so jammed that they ripped the shoulder off it when trying to remove it. Then they measured the alignment that they conclude caused it... only 0.014".


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Just tossing out some more data...
> 
> http://camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml
> 
> ...




And, what is your point here?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Why don't you just stop the BS. You obviously have no idea what you're writing about. Why don't you give us all a break and stop the BS?


Do you think you're aware of how to have a civil discussion? Would you appreciate being talked to the way you're talking down to others?

If the situation were reversed, I would have simply replied: "I think you misinterpreted the article, a difference in the measured runout of 0.010" only requires a correction of 0.005" to bring it back to center, so it's still the same as the first link."

Done. No hatred. No talking down. No animosity. Civil conversation between adults. A conversation neither has a gun to their heads to participate in.

It seems like you have a goal of attacking me first, and having a conversation second.

I ask you a simple question, to just, give an estimation of how you formed your (seemingly strong) opinion, and, you won't even answer. Maybe because you're only interested in contributing attacks, not civil discussion.



> And, what is your point here?


I think in your mind, my goal is like yours, to argue. It's not.

I said earlier that I was curious what the average misalignment might be on a given vehicle on the road, because that leads some credence to how strict the runout actually needs to be, versus a more abstract "should" be.

So, in that article they pointed out how just swapping a bell housing to a variety of matching engines, on what should be a factory fit, using the alignment pins, gives much larger misalignment than the 0.005" recommended maximum. I'm not saying it's conclusive, I'm saying it's interesting.

Also interesting is that there was failure at 0.014", which gives evidence the other way.

This isn't a holy war. I'm not out to defend one particular opinion to the death.

It's okay if you don't want to participate, but if you do, it's not helpful if you're so emotionally involved in attacking someone.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Do you think you're aware of how to have a civil discussion? Would you appreciate being talked to the way you're talking down to others?
> 
> If the situation were reversed, I would have simply replied: "I think you misinterpreted the article, a difference in the measured runout of 0.010" only requires a correction of 0.005" to bring it back to center, so it's still the same as the first link."
> 
> ...


It is obvious you do not understand and misinterpret what you read. 

You've been shown the right way. Yet you linger on attempting to justify your low quality awesome stuff.

BTW, we have civil discussions, even arguments, most of the time around here, unless you're involved.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> It is obvious you do not understand and misinterpret what you read.


Do I?

What I first said was that they bolted some together with the dowel pins, as factory, and discovered 19, 16, and 8 thou misalignment. While not conclusive, that does seem to indicate that there are probably plenty of vehicles on the road with similar misalignment, without issue, if even the locating pins aren't keeping them truer than that.

The section you quoted said: "Also interesting is that there was failure at 0.014", *which gives evidence the other way.*"

By which I meant, in contrast with what I said above, "it seems that 14 thou is certainly too significant misalignment".



> You've been shown the right way. Yet you linger on attempting to justify your low quality awesome stuff.


???

I don't have anything to "justify". I'm literally saying I'm on the fence, and asking people for their experiences and participating in a discussion.

I don't have some secret agenda to undermine someone or prove them wrong.

I'm sorry that a discussion doesn't end when you say "Don't" if that's your perfect world, but other people find the discussion interesting.



> BTW, we have civil discussions, even arguments, most of the time around here, unless you're involved.


Criticize away.

At what point did I talk down to or insult anyone? Because I can definitely point to a few people who seem to consistently seek out other's posts and be the first ones to do that to them.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

GE11 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> These are some excellent and helpful responses and I am thankful for the help. Just I’m not sure which way to go.
> I did run across this the guy wants $1500.00
> ...



Oh yeah, I almost forgot about you. This is your thread after all. The speaker in the video says the transmission input shaft has the pilot bearing area cut off. This is unfortunate because this part of the shaft provides good support and alignment for the end of the shaft. This is needed as you found out by the looseness of the shaft in your TA.

The shaft is probably supported by a coupling slid on the splines of the shaft and attached to the motor shaft. Depending on how tight the coupling fits on the splines of the input shaft, there may not be enough support as there would be with the stock pilot bearing set-up. Unfortunately, you may not find out if it's going to work until you have hundreds or a few thousands of miles on the road. If I was stuck with this modified set-up, I'd keep the splines heavily greased as they would be worked a lot more than with the pilot bearing set-up, and hope the shaft movement didn't destroy the transmission.

I can't tell if the adapter plate is machined to fit the circular steps in the bell housing and on the end bell of the motor. If not, it should be. This is a easy machining operation compared to many other transmissions. If the hole in the plate for the motor too big, a close fitting spacer could be machined to make the motor fit properly. All of the parts of the set-up need to concentric enough so that the total offset of the motor shaft axis and the input shaft running axis be no more 0.005". As for as I can tell, all of the videos and articles sited in this thread (even Matt's, if he actually took the time to look at and understand them) concur that this is the alignment tolerance to aim for.

The heavy conductors in the video look to be THHN wire or something like it. This wire may not be vibration proof enough and too stiff to work with for vehicle use. You should try to find out the Curtis controller four digit (usually) model number.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> GE11 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys,
> ...


Thanks so much for your help! This was very helpful...
He did another video of the parts in more detail...

I also have run across a 9 inch ADC motor for 400 bucks wonder if it’s worth it or this 1500.00 setup. I would sell the controller and the battery charger...
Take a look and tell me what you think..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GGRFPWBz81A


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The adapter plate looks good. See how the circular step on the end of the motor fits in the center hole of the plate? And the circular step on edge of the plate fits in the circular recess in the bell housing? All good, if they are a close fits.

The coupling looks like it is made out of aluminum on the keyed motor shaft side. The bolt-on splined side is probably the cut-out center of a clutch disc. The relatively soft aluminum may not be up to the job of transferring the full torque potential of this motor for the long run. This might be the one that was marketed for a time by a supplier. Other people may have this coupling and have a better idea how it holds up. The cut-out clutch centers usually have(and should have, if not) good machined surfaces to line up properly(axially and radially) with the other half of the coupling and seem to work for people. Just keep in mind the concerns about not having a pilot bearing or sleeve I wrote about in my previous post.

I do not have a lot of experience with the old school Curtis 1231 controller, if you are going to use it. The cars I've seen with it seem a bit slow and under-powered. Of coarse, this was with lead acid batteries. Performance would be better with lithium. A lot depends on the weight of your vehicle and the type of driving you want to do. Other people with more experience, could write about this controller.

If the seller could hold his camera steady enough(!), it would be good to look inside the motor, with the brush cover removed, to check the commutator, brushes, and windings.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Here is one build thread where some dodgy motor/transmission alignment techniques didn't work out: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...-77137.html?highlight=motor+alignment+problem

At post 66, the builder gave up on their poorly designed adapter plate and picked one up from CanEV. This is after a transmission failure and other problems. 

I'll keep looking for other examples of alignment problems.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Here is one build thread where some dodgy motor/transmission alignment techniques didn't work out: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...-77137.html?highlight=motor+alignment+problem


This is actually a really interesting example, because it covers I think 5 transmissions through 2 EVs. But, not actually what you're concluding by it. (I.E. Not a misalignment plate issue).

Transmission#:
1 - Died, likely from earlier abuse, transfer case wasn't pumping fluid. Not misalignment.
2 - Died immediately, coincidence. Was a junkyard part. Not (likely, though it's only briefly discussed) misalignment.
3 - One hiccup due to his error then worked fine for 10,000 miles before motor/plate moved to new vehicle.
4 - Now on EV2, died from flywheel issue that chewed bearings and then obviously unsupported shaft issues, *not adapter misalignment issues*
5 - Bought a new motor and matching machined adapter plate and it's run fine ever since.

A rushed summary for anyone curious...

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=336674&postcount=46 <-- First mention is post #46/47.

From the moment of conversion (EV #2) it had "minor bearing noise", but he drove it for ~1000 miles and then spent a day "playing with the drivetrain and suspension", and then a couple days later after worse grinding noise he discovered the motor shaft (and shredded bearing) damage.

So, seems like there was alignment issues from the start, made worse by whatever undocumented things he was tweaking on the drivetrain.

1000 miles is an ugly number, it's both awkwardly big and small. That's definitely long enough that someone might mistakenly conclude "it's working fine", as 1000 miles is a long time (versus, not working at all or, only minutes of it holding up). But, 1000 miles for a vehicle is also a very small amount of time, one wouldn't want to be doing maintenance (especially major overhaul/replacement of motor/etc) every 1000 miles, that's ludicrously quick.

He also ascribes some coupling as an issue later after his attempted repair.

He bought a Warp 9 and an adapter plate as his permanent fix.

...

However, he doesn't actually say what his adapter was in this thread or show how he built it or aligned it. He just talks about trimming the outside with a jigsaw. His motor was previously used in an older EV of his, and he swapped it (and the pre-existing coupler that he says he made) over to this build when he retired (cannibalized) his '96 Civic for this '01 Civic. And onto a transmission he knew wasn't a match because he had to trim the old plate.

Digging deeper:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82678 <-- This is a thread all about his alignment issue specifically.

A few notes:

- Motor came off an earlier earlier EV (earlier than his 2 I think).
- He did build the adapter plate himself
- He designed the coupler which was machined
- He spent several hours aligning things just-right (at least the first time).
- He drove it as an EV 10,000 miles
- He concludes in a post-mortem that the issue was an unbalanced flywheel, not alignment of the plates.

"*The plates are correct, we checked them with alignment tools.* What I did not do is adjust the flywheel on the motor before it went into the transmission. I did have vibration issues when I first installed the clutch but went away. This time the motor is sitting on my bench until the flywheel is flush and aligned correctly. "

In the last post he also describes his methodology for getting the plates right, and noting how they held up for years thereafter.

Digging deeperer...

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17721 <-- His original build thread.

More notes:
- He seems to have build the adapter plate "himself", but, maybe in a machine shop (?), if so (see next note), that's not a fair comparison to an average DIYer.
- His plates were just 2 plates bolted to each other and then aligned afterwards during clamping, so, not sure what was done in the machine shop, he described using a normal cordless drill to drill the alignment holes in the previous thread.
- He blew up the original tranny on the first EV after 1000 miles (different than above when he blew up his second EV's tranny in 1000 miles too).
- The original tranny already had 250,000 miles on it. He suspected lack of fluid changes in the transfer case as the culprit.
- He describes the failure being weird, as he wasn't accelerating hard or anything (in line with what Major said earlier in this thread about shaft issues happening in situations unrelated to any kind of particular demand). 

Digger deepererer...

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/pop-goes-tranny-37821.html
<-- "pop goes the tranny" thread.

Again notes:
- The tranny had no damage, he concludes the transfer case stripped or was poorly maintained.
- His second tranny back then coincidentally had issues immediately (half a mile), started leaking, probably unrelated, was immediately replaced.
- His third tranny had some issues but it was just a temporary oops on him not securing the torque converter.
- He then added 10,000 miles to that third tranny setup as is.
- He retired it (to move it to the '01 Civic project) because of brake issues, lead acid pack dying, and it being struck by lightning.

...

All that to me says that it might be fine to build your own, if you do it well as he did, but if you're shoehorning an old plate onto a different transmission and the measurements don't match, or if imbalance (in this case from the flywheel) causes bearing wear that causes (temporary) rotational misalignment, you're obviously in for trouble.

Kind of a mixed bag. He clearly had it working find for 10,000 miles until he chose to retire the vehicle for unrelated cost-effectiveness reasons. He had issues before and after, and was working with a junk high-mileage vehicle to begin with.

The plates themselves weren't anything special or aligned any way special machining-wise. One bolted to motor, the other to tranny. Then clamped, and then he drilled and joined them when he had the alignment just right.

It was a lot to read, maybe I'm not juggling it all in my head correctly, but, it seems at no point across 2 EVs were his home-built, Dewalt-cordless drill and jigsaw plates ever the cause of misalignment or failure. It did fail, but that wasn't ever why.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Is this is the "precise alignment" you are referring to: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/fb1-4001a-shaft-failure-82678p2.html

A "spin test" is a very poor way to set-up shafts with a misalignment limit of 0.005". SGC says his set-up worked for


"...years[with an automatic transmission] without any issue, until now when I changed to a manual transmission."


An automatic transmission with a flex plate and torque converter is much more tolerant of motor/transmission misalignment. Almost everybody doing conversions 
uses a manual transmission(OK, except for you Duncan!) that require more precise alignment.
You are really grasping at straws here to make your point. Maybe you should trust your own analysis: 

"It was a lot to read, maybe I'm not juggling it all in my head correctly"


Hey, if you want to have to change a transmission or repair other damaged parts from poor motor/transmission alignment every 1000 miles, knock yourself out. Personally, I would like to have a EV that lasted at least as long as a ICE powered vehicle.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Is this is the "precise alignment" you are referring to: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/fb1-4001a-shaft-failure-82678p2.html


It's like you're not even reading what I write, you've just decided I hold a certain point of view that I don't, and aren't interested in seeing things any other way. You're interpreting everything through that filter.

*I literally linked and quoted that thread in my previous reply.*

And, highlighted his response to you: "The plates are correct, we checked them with alignment tools. What I did not do is adjust the flywheel on the motor before it went into the transmission."

He looked into it, and determined the alignment was correct but the flywheel was not. That was the result of his failure. Not a DIY alignment plate.



> An automatic transmission with a flex plate and torque converter is much more tolerant of motor/transmission misalignment.


Sure, I believe you. Maybe that's the most important factor.

However, 2 things:

1 - When he moved that motor and adapter plate from the '96 Civic to the '01 Civic, he had to trim the plate because it didn't match, so, there might have been other things that were out of line between the two transmissions that played an issue. Which doesn't even matter, because...

2 - Again, he verified that the alignment was true and determined that the issue was his flywheel was not balanced. That's what chewed up the bearings, which then resulted in an unsupported shaft.



> You are really grasping at straws here to make your point.


How many times do I have to say that this is not some holy war or debate club where I have a fixed position to defend? Maybe that's how you approach a topic, or this specific topic, but, not me.

I'm not grasping at any straws. I'm not proffering a fixed opinion.

I would be just as interested to find out that this is a guaranteed failure as I am to find out it's not. I'm interested in what worked for people and what didn't, how often things broke, etc.

It's almost like you hope that if you accuse me of the same thing often enough, it makes it true. Listen to what I'm actually saying, if I had a strong fixed opinion I'd just say so. I don't.



> Hey, if you want to have to change a transmission or repair other damaged parts from poor motor/transmission alignment every 1000 miles, knock yourself out.


Again, reading comprehension... I literally covered this exact point in my previous post and pointed out how that would be awful. I'm not interested in defending a particular viewpoint, I'm pointing out things on both sides.

However, I don't know why you're talking about 1000 miles, his home-made adapter worked well for 10,000 miles, and had no signs of not holding up indefinitely. It only failed after he moved it to a different vehicle and didn't balance the flywheel.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

OK Matt, if that was the only problem, why did he spend $800- $1000 to get a CanEV adapter plate and coupling to replace his bad DIY stuff? Here are some clues from post 59 of this Thread: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...137p7.html?highlight=motor+alignment+problem:


"So instead of trying to mess with it again I am just going to buy one from Can-EV or Rebirth Auto" 

This refers to the coupling, but he also bought an adapter plate.


And from post 66:


"the drag seemed a lot less than with my last coupling setup"

" the new Can-EV Honda Civic motor coupling and adapter plate. It's a really nice design that doesn't need any fancy alignment"


TheSGC, the poster of the Thread sited, finally figured out the need for proper motor/transmission alignment. In this case, his solution was to buy a commercial set-up from a good supplier. You should figure it out too.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> OK Matt, if that was the only problem, why did he spend $800- $1000 to get a CanEV adapter plate and coupling to replace his bad DIY stuff?


I don't know, you'd have to ask him.

If you want to speculate, perhaps you're right. Or perhaps:

- he was having less fun and interest building EVs after his 3rd, and, in the classic struggle of spending time/effort vs money, chose to purchase instead.

- he was burnt out from diagnosing problems, particularly with his coupler, and setbacks, an expired lead acid pack, etc, it was no longer an interesting challenge just a functional one, and he wanted something that "just worked".

- as his original motor did not come with a mounting plate, he had to design one (like he designed his coupler). But as his motor shaft for his original motor was now damaged and needed $650 to repair, and he was opting to purchase a new Warp 9, and as the Warp 9 was a popular enough choice that a pre-machined plate existed, since he was spending thousands anyways and not doing a budget build, it (and the coupler) was another item off the list.

- as it was a vehicle in regular commuter use for him, he wanted it back up and running ASAP, he made several comments about wanting to be free from gas and driving again.

- he spent hours of tedious nudging, adjusting and aligning the plate, and wasn't looking forward to it again.


I think that's perfectly reasonable of a choice for him to have made and it suited his situation. But it's not indicative of him having to because his adapter plate was poor, difficult to machine, impossible to align, or problematic. Any more than it's indicative that a DIY EV is impossible because some people choose to buy Leafs or Teslas. It just suits their situation best.



> TheSGC, the poster of the Thread sited, finally figured out the need for proper motor/transmission alignment.


That's presumptuous and I think likely false, putting words in his mouth as one of the first things he did after his shaft failed was investigate whether the alignment was off and determined that it was not. He stated it plainly and I've quoted it twice.



> In this case, his solution was to buy a commercial set-up from a good supplier. You should figure it out too.


That's very quaint and smug of you to declare, same as it would be for someone to say "In his case, his solution was to buy a commercially engineered Tesla from a proper OEM factory. DIY EV isn't possible. You should figure it out too."

Obviously it was his solution. It's not *the* solution or the *only* solution and this example doesn't demonstrate anything other than that there's a variety of things that can go wrong with any DIY build. Frankly I think it shows that building your own adapter plate is feasible with common hand tools and to never have an issue with it, as he didn't for 10,000 miles until his donor car itself fell apart and he chose to disassemble it.

Damien's 80,000 miles on his home-built plate shows it further, as does Duncans, etc.

You seem to have a lot of ego wrapped up in this discussion, every post you make is smarmy and putting words in people's mouths and talking about people having to realize "the truth", rather than just make choices that make sense for themselves. It seems to upset you so much to have a discussion that you have to make petty little unnecessary personal snips. It's tedious just to have a conversation with you. Half the time is spent clarifying things no one said or meant.

I'll give you this. Maybe you're right. This is more difficult than it perhaps seems. But I haven't seen anything convincing that it can't be done by spending some extra time and care, nor that it's destined to fail. Yes it's easier to just buy a plate, just as it's easier to buy an OEM EV. Those are different conversations and it's disingenuous to equate the two.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

OK, G11 it looks like you can come out from under the table now. I think it's all clear. What is the latest on your VW venture? Did the seller post more information videos?


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> OK, G11 it looks like you can come out from under the table now. I think it's all clear. What is the latest on your VW venture? Did the seller post more information videos?


Oh it’s quit all right that y’all discuss this I think both of you have very valid points!

Here is what I have:
I have a 2 seater dune buggy that I want to make electric. I don’t want to go over 48V to start with the goal is 40 MPH. This is strictly for driving in the woods.
I bought this frame with swing axle transmission for 200 bucks but have spent another 200 getting the brakes done.
So I am at the point of putting a motor on. Now I have several 11 inch forklift motors “Hyster 325744” motors in my garage I am trying to want to use. Or I can go out and buy this kit for $1500.00 and just sell of the controller and charger. Or third option there is a $400.00 FB1-4001 motor for sale I could use it... Ethier way if I go big Forklift or Advance DC I have to make an adaptor plate... so this is what I’m trying to decide...

I have a Paul and Sabrina controller that I will use also...
You’re thoughts?

Thanks for everyone’s input


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's an interesting use of an otherwise scraped part that might be usable as an adapter plate design for the VW TA at ~7:12 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8p6uLQTW-M 

The cast iron brake rotor is not as easy as aluminum to machine. Cast iron, not hardened or with hard spots, is still reasonably easy to machine.

If you were to use the Curtis 1231C8601 controller, it switches to a lower frequency at lower motor speeds for smoother motor operation. This might be useful for light rock-hopping at slow speeds. As I recall, you can hear it hum in this mode. It is rated for a minimum of 96V. That might be more batteries than you wanted to carry.

Re batteries, what were you thinking of using?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Ethier way if I go big Forklift or Advance DC I have to make an adaptor plate... so this is what I’m trying to decide...


So, 3 options:
1 - Forklift motor.
2 - 4001a motor.
3 - The Warp9 with (matching to your transmission?) adapter plate.

A purchased adapter plate is $875 from CanEV. $875 seems to be a fair rate for what hiring a machine shop would cost to build a plate if you went with the other motor options.

If you buy the other guy's kit, $1500-$875 (rough guess at custom machined cost) leaves only $625 extra for the controller/charger/etc. Can you sell all the bits you don't need (or, negotiate a lower price for only the motor/plate), for $625 plus whatever your time is worth? Maybe/probably? It's certainly a steal of a deal to get the Warp9 and all the extras for only $625 above what the plate itself would cost you.

So, if you're going to buy a plate either way, buying this guy's one is probably the best idea. That should close the issue of which one to purchase, if you purchase.

If you're considering whether you should build or purchase a plate, is your time/effort/frustration worth the ~$1500 minus the sold components ($625ish?).

Also judge what you've read in this thread to make your choice.

Here is Damien's tutorial on making an adapter plate. IIRC he's never had problems with them, and this particular plate has lasted him 5+ years of daily driving and 80,000 miles (until he wanted to change the motor, no issues). That's the best track record I've found:

1 - https://youtu.be/CPY4kvVpn6s?list=PLPHK4T9kKEyYRhPQJPOvSGyibmyiA26bj&t=600 
2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhOBl0xljw&index=30&list=PLPHK4T9kKEyYRhPQJPOvSGyibmyiA26bj 
3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os8GtMsCxAo&index=29&list=PLPHK4T9kKEyYRhPQJPOvSGyibmyiA26bj 
(I tent to watch Damien's videos at 2x speed, he has a deep voice and clear enunciation that handles fast speed easily).

Some notes:

- He uses a mill, lathe, and welder to make it. Tools the average person does not have access to.

- He uses the mill just to plunge holes into the plate, and later does the other set with just a hand drill, so it's obviously not critical or a required tool. He uses transfer punches and a center drill to get the holes started.

- His coupler method (get matching splines for each side, weld them to a cylinder) probably requires a lathe, especially if you're truing it to the internal measurements. You could get away without that if you use your actual motor as a lathe (maybe put cardboard in front of the vents to not suck in dust/chips). It's bodgey, but you can use an angle grinder as a roughing tool (while using the motor to spin) and a file as a finishing tool. I.E. You don't need a machine shop.

- You could hire a machine shop to make a taper-lock coupler instead, that's a separate decision from the plate.

- He doesn't use locating pins/dowels, just bolts (well, cap screws), and emphasizes that the sheer forces should be on the shoulder (shank?) of the bolt, not the threads. It's worked for him for 5 years, so, maybe reaming/dowels is not essential. On the flip side, if the fit isn't perfectly rigid (like a dowel) you'd be relying on the clamping pressure of the bolts to prevent the plate from shifting. I dunno that that's wise. I'd throw in some dowels just to be safe, you won't be machining a lip across your bell housing like it originally used, so that's out.

...

I think that's about it. Hole saw, center drill, presumably dial indicator (he skipped the most critical part of the demo in my opinion), and threading taps are about the only even marginally specialized tools necessary, and they'd be among the first metalworking tools you'd pick up regardless.

There's no right answer, what do you feel like doing?


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> Here's an interesting use of an otherwise scraped part that might be usable as an adapter plate design for the VW TA at ~7:12 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8p6uLQTW-M
> 
> The cast iron brake rotor is not as easy as aluminum to machine. Cast iron, not hardened or with hard spots, is still reasonably easy to machine.
> 
> ...


Well there are several options, to start with I am going with lead acid to get my feet wet. Latter depending on how things go I will go lithium. But either way I am staying at 48V. 
To start off I will go with probably 8 6V golf cart batteries... and this is my dilemma with using a 11 inch forklift motor... these motors weigh almost 70 to 80 lbs more than an ADC motor or Warp 9 motor. The battery pack alone will be heavy. Then I might want to add a 3600W DC generator for rang extending.
Right now just trying Choose a direction on this motor and coupler. I’m wondering if the ADC 9 inch motor is worth 400 bucks over a FREE 11” forklift motor...


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> > Ethier way if I go big Forklift or Advance DC I have to make an adaptor plate... so this is what I’m trying to decide...
> 
> 
> So, 3 options:
> ...


Yes I have seen this guys videos before and I will watch the ones you have posted. This guy is a very sharp individual. I like watching his videos!

As far as the 1500.00 deal is concerned I was use the Warp 9, the coupler, the adapter plate, and possibly that contactor.
The thing is coming up with 1500 bucks is a lot. But, I would buy this 1500.00 package over a 900 single Adaptor plate. 
Now here is a thought I could buy the ADC 9 inch, the Wilderness EV coupler and adaptor plater for 500 and be in this package for 900... but how good is a Warp 9 as apposed to the ADC 9 inch motor?
But then I have a 11” forklift motor free... the disadvantage is the weight and building my on plate... this particular forklift motor (325744) is the exact anatomy as a warp 11, it’s just heavy for a little two seater dune buggy


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

You might want to do more research on Wilderness EV: 

https://www.bbb.org/us/ut/provo/profile/rv-dealers/wilderness-ev-1166-22014703/customer-reviews


https://www.bbb.org/us/ut/provo/profile/rv-dealers/wilderness-ev-1166-22014703/details#Alert


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> You might want to do more research on Wilderness EV:
> 
> https://www.bbb.org/us/ut/provo/profile/rv-dealers/wilderness-ev-1166-22014703/customer-reviews
> 
> ...


Oh wow!!!
Yikes !!!
Well that idea is done... WoW....


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> So, 3 options:
> 1 - Forklift motor.
> 2 - 4001a motor.
> 3 - The Warp9 with (matching to your transmission?) adapter plate.
> ...



Matt: I'm shocked, shocked that you would put this poor guy through such an overly complicated, tool intensive procedure for making an air cooled VW adapter plate. And, on top of that, put him through the pure torture of Damian's early videos (his videos a lot better now).

Being serious now, this VW motor adapter plate is one that could be successfully made of aluminum on a heavy duty wood lathe face plate with hand-held cutting tools. The plate just needs 2 circular indexing steps (one for the motor, one the step in the TA bell housing) that are concentric within the 0.005"(0.13mm) limit. If you're skilled enough and can check the fit as you cut the steps (with the actual parts or even basic measuring tools-calipers, dividers) it could be done in one set-up(put it on, take it off) on the lathe. With one set-up, no dial indicator to accurately relocate the adapter plate on the lathe face plate, would be needed. 

As far as making more complicated adapter plates for other vehicles, I'm taking some of Duncan's ideas and trying to come up with workable DIY solutions.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Here is the forklift motor I have in the garage....


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hyster-325...rentrq:a430a0491670aade2a98657dfff044b6|iid:1


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

GE11 said:


> The thing is coming up with 1500 bucks is a lot. But, I would buy this 1500.00 package over a 900 single Adaptor plate.


Okay, so if $1500 is a lot to you, then I'd nudge you in the direction of spending extra time and effort building your own adapter plate.



> Now here is a thought I could buy the ADC 9 inch, the Wilderness EV coupler and adaptor plater for 500 and be in this package for 900


Maybe you missed it, but Brian looked into the Wilderness EV stuff earlier in the thread, post #15. Here's what he said: 

_"Wilderness EV lists their kit contents as including a "Generic Adaptor Plate". I had no idea what that would be... a random chunk of aluminum plate, from which a machinist can make an adapter? I looked at the "installation instructions", and incredibly that's all they supply. It's a bit like pointing someone at a lumber yard and saying "there, that's a generic house kit... you'll have to cut some of the wood yourself"."_

So your "adapter plate" is literally just a blank plate of metal that you still have to turn into an adapter plate yourself. I think that would be a poor purchase.



> ... but how good is a Warp 9 as apposed to the ADC 9 inch motor?


They are equivalent. They are perhaps even a direct swap for each other?:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/impulse-9-fb1-4001ii-55929.html

"they are designed to be interchangeable."

In any case, performance-wise close enough.



> But then I have a 11” forklift motor free... the disadvantage is the weight and building my on plate... this particular forklift motor (325744) is the exact anatomy as a warp 11, it’s just heavy for a little two seater dune buggy


How'd you end up with 3x 11" forklift motors? There are smaller forklifts that'll have something equivalent to a 9" motor, maybe see if you can trade (or I guess buy) one of those if you want something smaller.



> Well there are several options, to start with I am going with lead acid to get my feet wet. Latter depending on how things go I will go lithium. But either way I am staying at 48V.


I'd strongly point you away from lead acid unless you have free batteries.

There is no reason to use lead acid batteries. They are categorically worse by any measure. Relative to lithium:
- Heavier for the same energy
- More volumous for the same energy
- Lower power (the rate you can use the energy)
- Higher price for the same energy
- Roughly 20-50% less energy even than their rating if you need it quick (under 10 hours).
- Roughly half their listed capacity if you want them to last (discharge them more than half way and they won't last nearly as long).

The main one you probably care about is that they are higher price for the same amount of energy, if you're buying used OEM packs. If you're buying new then they're closer to par, but, you won't be buying new, you'll be buying an old OEM pack.

Also...

Pardon me if I missed it, but, have you mentioned why you want to stop at 48v? How did you come to select that voltage?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> an *air cooled* VW adapter plate


Lol.

[Edited to add, thought he was making a joke about Damian drilling a 3" hole in his bell housing, not, the step-type of transmission alignment on an air cooled VW. Oh well. Gonna have a chuckle anyway.]



> this VW motor adapter plate is one that could be successfully made of aluminum on a heavy duty wood lathe face plate with hand-held cutting tools [...] With one set-up, no dial indicator to accurately relocate the adapter plate on the lathe face plate, would be needed.


I hear ya, but, most people won't have a wood lathe with a 12" swing (6"?) at home. Most people might not have a dial indicator, but, like Duncan said, it or calipers are $15.

...

I wonder if you could do the router-on-a-stick trick to machine the step:

1 - Clamp plate down.
2 - Drill small hole in middle of plate.
3 - Insert fitted pin into hole.
4 - Drill hole in stick.
5 - Add stick to pin. Perhaps stick should have adjustable length.
6 - Attach router to stick.
7 - Turn router on and swing in a circle.

Alternatively, a circle jig on a router table would work too and you won't look like you're stirring an imaginary cauldron.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> GE11 said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is coming up with 1500 bucks is a lot. But, I would buy this 1500.00 package over a 900 single Adaptor plate.
> ...


I have looked at the Nissan Leaf batteries quit a bit.. that would be my next move. But I would need to learn more about balance charging and discharge cut off voltage and charge cut off voltage. Need to make sure I monitor each cell for max charge and max discharge...
This little short frame buggy is only for the woods.. the goal is 35 to 40 MPH. So for that 48V is simple and safe...
Using open revolt as the controller.
Right now I’m thinking of scooping up that ADC motor for sale right up the road.. the Hyster motor is just to big I think...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Lol.
> 
> [Edited to add, thought he was making a joke about Damian drilling a 3" hole in his bell housing, not, the step-type of transmission alignment on an air cooled VW. Oh well. Gonna have a chuckle anyway.]
> 
> ...



People are much more likely to have, or know someone with, a wood turning lathe vs. a metal turning lathe that could turn this plate.


Your idea of using a wood cutting router might work if the cuts could be made accurate enough to produce the correct indexing diameters that are concentric within the 0.005"(0.13mm) limit called for by most OEMs.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> People are much more likely to have, or know someone with, a wood turning lathe vs. a metal turning lathe that could turn this plate.


Certainly. If it's an option, it's an option. But they're more likely to be able to buy a dial indicator and use the other method.



> Your idea of using a wood cutting router might work if the cuts could be made accurate enough to produce the correct indexing diameters that are concentric within the 0.005"(0.13mm) limit called for by most OEMs.


I don't have a lot of experience, but I've done it (both methods, router on a stick and router table) with plastic. I'm comfortable saying that the finish was within 5 thou. I think, even with woodworking, that amount of step would be noticeable both visually and by feel. Though if it's gradually off, I suppose I wouldn't have noticed.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

This exactly what I ended up doing!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI0292l71o


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

GE11 said:


> This exactly what I ended up doing!
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI0292l71o



Now that you have chosen the ugliest, crudest, and probably most unworkable set-up to join the motor to the transmission, please let us know how it works out for you! By all means include videos and pictures so this can be well documented.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> Now that you have chosen the ugliest, crudest, and probably most unworkable set-up to join the motor to the transmission, please let us know how it works out for you! By all means include videos and pictures so this can be well documented.


Ugly - YES 
But I bet it works 
The weak link is the lovejoys


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

Duncan said:


> electro wrks said:
> 
> 
> > Now that you have chosen the ugliest, crudest, and probably most unworkable set-up to join the motor to the transmission, please let us know how it works out for you! By all means include videos and pictures so this can be well documented.
> ...


I did not use lovejoys, I actually got a 1 1/8 hub and welded the center piece of a clutch disk to it....
It runs very smooth no noises hardly at all. It’s going to do alright!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

I fully support you building this yourself.

I'm skeptical of Paul's instructions.

Lee Hart is the one who suggested the double-plate to him so, I mean, Lee would certainly know.

But if you're using a double plate and spacer... for the love of god why not just beg, borrow, steal or buy a dial indicator and use that instead of finger wiggling? You have room to get your whole foot between the plates, can't ask for a more visible and accessible setup for doing the necessary measurements/adjustments, and then you'd know, with certainty, that it was rotating true.

In any case, success or failure, keep us in touch.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> I fully support you building this yourself.
> 
> I'm skeptical of Paul's instructions.
> 
> ...


well..
I only used one plate...
Welded it to the motor front bell...
First I had the plate attached to the transmission with four grade 8 bolts. Then I lined everything up like Paul show and ran it at various speeds listen for any noises...
Then right at the perfect spot I welded the plate plate to the motor... works smoothly...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

GE11 said:


> well..
> I only used one plate...
> Welded it to the motor front bell...
> First I had the plate attached to the transmission with four grade 8 bolts. Then I lined everything up like Paul show and ran it at various speeds listen for any noises...
> Then right at the perfect spot I welded the plate plate to the motor... works smoothly...



Some pictures of this set-up would be nice to see.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> GE11 said:
> 
> 
> > well..
> ...


Well I had a nice video of it running on jack stands off of generator and a bank of transformers and a big heavy bridge... but it will not let me load it on here..


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

GE11 said:


> Well I had a nice video [...] but it will not let me load it on here..


Lots of free video websites that you can link to instead.

Youtube, Vimeo, etc.


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## GE11 (Oct 24, 2011)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> GE11 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I had a nice video [...] but it will not let me load it on here..
> ...


Alright alright alright... but don’t laugh... I don’t have but like 600 bucks in this whole setup including motor and dune buggy. I was not about to dump a whole bunch of money in this thing without at least trying to do it myself first...
But really it runs smooth... I just need a set of batteries and some sort of boost converter for the field...


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

GE11 said:


> Then right at the perfect spot I welded the plate plate to the motor... works smoothly...


Judging by the photos, what you mean is, "I welded the plate to a dozen pieces of scrap that I welded to the motor."

I dunno that your shrinkage wouldn't have pulled it off of square when the welds cooled, if not positionally off.

On the plus side it's as adjustable as a grinder allows 

I would've bumped your $600 budget to $615 or borrowed calipers, but... budget build is a budget built. If you break it you're only out a transmission or motor or both. Meanwhile you're not spending triple your budget to get a machined plate.

Onward and upward.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

This is so wrong, in so many ways. If the alignment was close(doubtful) to begin with, as Matt says the welding would have pulled it all out of position. As a simple solution, mentioned in post 43 of this thread, did you think about using a repurposed disc brake rotor like in this video around 7:10?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8p6uLQTW-M

For set-ups with round bell housings, like yours and the guy in video, recycled brake rotors could be a simple solution for building an adapter plate. Try salvage yards, on line, or a parts store for example rotors to check the fit.

Also notice in the video that the donor car transmission does not have a pilot bearing on the input shaft. The shaft is probably well supported by bearings inside the transmission and does not need a pilot bearing. This well supported shaft could be use to properly align the motor and transmission. You just have to be careful that the weight of the motor is supported as it is bolted to the transmission so minimum side(mostly down, in this case) load is applied to the input shaft.

I recall you said your input shaft has a pilot bearing and is somewhat loose, so this set-up probably would not work in your case. The potential for misalignment is just too great. For proper alignment, machining the brake rotor(or, whatever plate you use) to closely fit the step in the bell housing and the step on the motor end plate(after you cut and grind away the pieces of metal you welded on!) would be the way to go. These are very basic, simple machining operations. Talk to a machinist about doing the work if you don't have access to a lathe or the skills to do the work yourself.

If you want to build a Rat Rod Dune Buggy like this, welding on random pieces of metal is par for the course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muTA8YO9Mf4
But, you probably want to avoid it in places where careful alignment is needed.


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