# flooded Ni-Cad



## xinlongcat (Oct 30, 2008)

I think that would because of the poison of Cad matter??


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Tom Thomson said:


> What does anyone know about flooded Ni-Cad batteries?
> tommyt


Tommy...

Mostly seen them used as aircraft batteries... and in EV's. Other than that, I've tended to avoid NiCd due to early experiences with chemistries that had bad "memory" problems.


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

I'd heard that the NiCd "memory" effect in early dry-cell batteries was actually the result of chronic overcharging. 

And has anyone ever heard of a _non_-flooded NiCd? Like a NiCD AGM, or at least something maintenance-free?


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Saft made 6V flooded Nicd batteries specifically for EV use a few years back and still services them but won't sell new ones, at least that is my understanding.

You can find surplus BB600 military Nicads (used as aircraft batteries) but you need a couple hundred cells (each one is 34AH) to build a decently sized battery pack. These types of Nicads do NOT suffer from memory problems though they do have their own specific maintenance challenges.

All of these batteries have quite long lifespans if properly maintained, and have probably about 150% of the useful energy density vs. flooded lead.

There is a BB600 yahoo group you could join if you want additional informaiton. There are a couple of dozen cars on the austinev.org/evalbum using Nicad batteries.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I will tell you what I know about BB-600 NiCd cells.*

*They have a small water reservoir so you are always checking the water and you can ruin them by running them dry. These cells last a long time with proper maintenance, my BB-600 cells are 25 years old and still have a lot of capacity, the lowest one is 90% of rated and the highest is 115% of rated capacity. I did not buy them new and have no idea how many cycles they have. Their chemistry causes this "memory" affect and it doesn't show up for many cycles, I will not go into detail but run them all the way dead and the memory goes away.*

*I have found a 12V module made from BB-600 cells weighs 35 lbs and will run with a 50 lb PbA wet cell battery (group 24 deep cycle). I did this test by running both batteries to 11V under a 50A load. I don't run my PbA batteries below 1.83 VPC because I try to get more cycles out of them.*

*Now for the Cadmium scare, yes cadmium is toxic and no you don't want to take it out of the cell. According to the MSDS Cadmium has the same rating as lead. Health-2, Fire-0, Reactivity-0. In my opinion if you are scared of Cadmium then you should also be scared of lead. Treat these metals with respect and be responsible with them and I don't see a big issue.*


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## Tubularfab (Sep 25, 2008)

Nate - those batteries sound very interesting! Where can you get them??


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I found my NiCd batteries through my local EV club in Arizona, the gentleman that owned them did not quite understand them so they were giving him trouble. They were mounted under the vehicle and very hard to get to. From what I could tell they were run down on water and over charged. This was the test that showed me how important keeping them watered is. I bought them and spent two solid days studying charge and discharge profiles, one of those days was a vacation day from work. Just goes to show you I can really be a nerd sometimes!*

*I have more info for those interested, this information is based on my testing though.*

*FYI: NiCds are rated in true one hour rates so madderscience's** 34Ah NiCd will push 34 amps for 1 hour.*


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Well,

http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpos...ory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=32

The poster wants to donate them to a school for EV projects-but nobody's taken him up on his generous offer for a few months, he might take private offers by now.

I'd check it out myself, but it's going to be a year or more before I can afford any attempts at my first EV(  ) and I hate to see anything going to waste.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

order99 said:


> Well,
> 
> http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpos...ory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=32
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pointer. My son's engineering class in HS is working on an endurance EV conversion (most laps at the speedway wins), and so I wrote to the poster to see if he still has the batteries. It'll be a long haul down to Atlanta to get them (or I'll fly and drive 'em back up), but it would be worth it to get the kids the greater power density over LA.

sc
--


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

order99 said:


> The poster wants to donate them to a school for EV projects-but nobody's taken him up on his generous offer for a few months, he might take private offers by now.


I got an answer back from Mr. Pettitt; the batteries were donated to a high school in Texas.

sc
--


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Oh well, at least they're being used.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

order99 said:


> Oh well, at least they're being used.


Yes, and through happenstance, I know that it's our own mbarkley/TexomaEV who has them! At least we know he'll put them to good use.

sc
--


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## POLYMHXANOS (Jul 27, 2008)

I want to learn from experience how much it takes to discharge the Ni- Cd and how much the lead battery?


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## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

"I have about *22 Saft, 6 Volt, 180 Amphr* batteries to give to a school who is working on an EV Project. These are older batteries but never been used or "commissioned". They are NiCads so they should be 180 amphrs when commissioned. These batteries were over *$200 each when new*. You will need to be able to pick them up, I will not ship them. I have the manual for the batteries. They are located near Atlanta. NOTE: These have been donated to a high school for a Mazda pickup they are in the process of building to enter into EV competitions. I think all of you for your interest."
________________________________________________

Any reason why we are chasing after overpriced unproven chinese lithium when batteries like these are around? How do you charge NiCads?


Edit; Wow these NiCads are quite hefty though.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*Hey xtreme cartz, good to see you over here also! You can charge NiCd batteries pretty much the same way you charge PbA (Lead Acid). A transformer charger will work but the best way to charge NiCd is with a volt and amp limit power supply like the PFCs Manzanita Micro make. *

*For example: BB600 single cell was run totally dead ambient temp was 80**
*Volt limit to 1.57V*
*Current limit to 50A*
*Bulk charge done in 40 minutes this is where the power supply reached 1.57V and started to back the current down to avoid over voltage. I left the charger on until current dropped below 1 amp. You could use 1.50V as an easy to remember number to avoid over voltage. Remember I was watching everything and wanted to know what happened when you went too high on voltage. At 80* 1.57V raised the electrolyte level right to the top of the cell. 1.58V cause a little electrolyte to come out the vent so I was safe at 1.50V. I saw no increase in capacity by running 1.57V vs. 1.50V. Cadmium and Nickel have an electro thermal effect so the 3.25lb cell will not over heat when getting hit with 50 amps until the cell reaches 1.50V. If you keep pushing 50 amps beyond 1.50V you overflow the electrolyte and heat the cell hence my previous explanation. How many amps can you hit a BB600 with? I don't know, 50 amps is all my volt/current limit supply will push.*


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I have long since wanted NiCDs or NiFE for my little commuta but I have always thought that the availablity was non existant and the price was very high.

Is there a source of these USED batteries in the US, I never find ones of sufficient size or quality, not to mention QUANTITY. There were a bunch of 16ahr posted here a while back but he was too far and the batteries sounded quite questionable so I passed.

Has anyone ever sourced NiCD or NiFE from China? I seem to remember someone mentioning an astronomical price but I am not sure if they were talking a chinese distributer or US one.

Thank You
Ryan


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Hello guys, we did obtain those Nicads that you speak of. We're going to take good care of them, and hopefully very soon have them operating a Mazda B2000 model pickup. If you want to follow the progression of the project, shoot over to:

www.shrunkin.com/ev

There you will find the school project objectives, a video from EV Challenge, and photos of the progressing EV. The students are just about ready to stab the motor/transmission back into the pickup. We just today, started commissioning the batteries themselves. I waited until they were installed in the battery box, so the students weren't exposed to any voltages while handling them, and being in the dormant stage, the electrolyte was all absorbed into the separator material, so no spilling to be had.


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## TexomaEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh, on another note, the president of our www.NTEAA.ORG , has stated that he has a contact with several packs of NiCad's from aircraft. This person is wanting to sell or trade them out.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*TexomaEV, you just reminded me of another feature I like when dealing with NiCd. I work with them totally dead so no chance of getting shocked or a wrench turning into plasma. Then I check the circuit again for issues before charging them. This is really nice when dealing with high voltage packs.*


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

please refer to this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/why-dont-more-people-use-nicads-25343.html

I did the research on prices for you and cycle life.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> please refer to this thread:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/why-dont-more-people-use-nicads-25343.html
> 
> I did the research on prices for you and cycle life.


The cycle life on good flooded Ni-Cad's like Saft and SBS is more like 3000 or even greater depending on discharge. Life if upwards of 25 years.

http://www2.ald.net/~roden/ev/pages/saft.htm


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> The cycle life on good flooded Ni-Cad's like Saft and SBS is more like 3000 or even greater depending on discharge. Life if upwards of 25 years.
> 
> http://www2.ald.net/~roden/ev/pages/saft.htm


 
Saft doesn't sell to end consumers, meaning that the price per battery can not be had outside of large possible orders.

I suspect that the chinese price of $140 per 120 wh is lower than Saft. Making the price something like 3-4 times that of lifepo4

For saft to offer better pricing than the similarly performing Lifepo4 (assuming that 2000-3000 cycles is possible at all in a mobile setting), You'd need a 1.2v x 100ah unit to cost around $40... I have my doubts that that price can be met in any quantity, but perhaps in extremely massive orders (say 100k or more) it could be done with saft.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Saft doesn't sell to end consumers, meaning that the price per battery can not be had outside of large possible orders.
> 
> I suspect that the chinese price of $140 per 120 wh is lower than Saft. Making the price something like 3-4 times that of lifepo4
> 
> For saft to offer better pricing than the similarly performing Lifepo4 (assuming that 2000-3000 cycles is possible at all in a mobile setting), You'd need a 1.2v x 100ah unit to cost around $40... I have my doubts that that price can be met in any quantity, but perhaps in extremely massive orders (say 100k or more) it could be done with saft.


I've heard Saft doesn't sell to regular consumers... but I'm not totally convinced. There seem to be quite a few ppl in Europe using them. I have read testimonials from EV builders who have 150,000 KM on them and still going. I could probably find this if you are interested. I think the cycle rating is probably real. 

I've seen Saft pricing .. I think it was like $900+ per battery.. crazy. I have a quote from SBS for a 200 Ah pack at just over $19,000. He indicated that quantity orders could drive this price down by 10 - 25%. This isn't hear-say, I have it in writing... 

I like a lot of things about flooded Ni-Cads for my cold weather application. Of course I'm not stuck on the Cadmium, but apparently, manufacturers of these batteries must provide recycling, and due to the cost... the do usually get recycled apparently. Of course, the price is brutal. But then again... 20-25 years at 3000 cycle. PROVEN in the field for many many years to be probably the most rugged "conventional" battery going.... make ur saliva run a bit... lol


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I like a lot of things about flooded Ni-Cads for my cold weather application. Of course I'm not stuck on the Cadmium, but apparently, manufacturers of these batteries must provide recycling, and due to the cost... the do usually get recycled apparently. Of course, the price is brutal. But then again... 20-25 years at 3000 cycle. PROVEN in the field for many many years to be probably the most rugged "conventional" battery going.... make ur saliva run a bit... lol


 
My saliva would run more if the pack cost $2000... not 19,000


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ya, no kidding, me too.... but at least you don't have to wonder if they are going to swell and die... or just die after 5 years. You can drain them right to zero too... and they don't even mind... actually, they like it! lol The plates don't shed either, no wonder they last. You can store them forever and revive them. Heck they even work decent when others are freezing up.

check this out.......

http://www.evguide.nu/ab150000.html

I've read other posts from this guy, when he was at 119K.....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Below is a quote from the earlier thread I posted.... maybe they just want to ensure proper application to protect thier reputation...and maybe liability.

*Sources.* EV hobbyists can obtain Saft nickel-cadmium modules directly from the factory, by contacting Saft America in Georgia. Normally, the user will be required to submit drawings and specifications for the proposed application to obtain warranty coverage -- just as OEMs are required to do. 

I do believe though, that the STM5 (Saft) isn't made in 180 Ah units anymore. I think 100 and 140's are available. I think they made 200 Ah units at one time. 

SBS on the other hand, make them in indivitual cells so you can series up until u get the voltage you want. They do come in 2 and 3 packs though for some sizes. (The voltage is 1.2 nominal per cell for flooded Ni-Cads.) The range of Ah packs available is extensive also. They also come in three models.. one for high current discharge, one for medium and one for long time/lower current. I think the really long discharge units have very thick plates and not a very good discharge rate.... which may hurt acceleration. I have read this comment from a few users also.

http://www.sbsbattery.com/subpage_index.php?_subp_=103

Oh yes, one other thing. Be aware that the Ah rate for flooded Ni-Cad's is typically posted at the 5 hr rate, not the 20 hr rate...making the available energy that much more.

Cheers.....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Below is a quote from the earlier thread I posted.... maybe they just want to ensure proper application to protect thier reputation...and maybe liability.


I never understood why these batteries were so expensive, unless they're sintering metallic powders.

Cadmium is ONLY $1.50/lb now... roughly that of aluminum. 

They SHOULD be way cheaper... in LA range IMO. Not 4-5 times over lithium >,>


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> I Not 4-5 times over lithium >,>


Do you mean 4 to 5 times more expensive than lithium? If so, I don't think that is accurate....


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Do you mean 4 to 5 times more expensive than lithium? If so, I don't think that is accurate....


Well the quotes I received were about 2.5 times above LiFePO with a weight about 4 times higher. Saft is lighter, but according to your price sheet that's a solid 5-6 times higher than LiFePO. 

LiFePO can be had for around 40 cents/wh in small quantities, and upwards of 25 cents/wh in large quantities.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Well the quotes I received were about 2.5 times above LiFePO with a weight about 4 times higher. Saft is lighter, but according to your price sheet that's a solid 5-6 times higher than LiFePO.
> 
> LiFePO can be had for around 40 cents/wh in small quantities, and upwards of 25 cents/wh in large quantities.


Really? Wow, I haven't seen any volume pricing of LiFePo at 25 cents per watt hour. Where did you see that and which company was it?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

The SBS flooded Ni-Cads I had quoted was about 69 cents per watt hour for a single pack. The lithium I had quoted was all around 50 to 55 cents for a similar pack.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Really? Wow, I haven't seen any volume pricing of LiFePo at 25 cents per watt hour. Where did you see that and which company was it?


 
Several LiFePO places I've contacted are near that... I assume with large orders it could be had for that price (say 10-100k pieces).

I believe a large thundersky group buy in australia got 0.35/wh before

However that's way cheaper than I was quoted for flood NiCD from china.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Several LiFePO places I've contacted are near that... I assume with large orders it could be had for that price (say 10-100k pieces).
> 
> I believe a large thundersky group buy in australia got 0.35/wh before
> 
> However that's way cheaper than I was quoted for flood NiCD from china.


Hey Tech...
Can you share your best actual quoted price info for one lithium pack including price, company and total Ah?

Is the 25 cents per wh an assumption then?

Thanks in advance.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

> Where can you get them??


 Made by MarathonNorco, in Waco, Texas. Google it.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

Hey Tech...
Can you share your best actual quoted price info for one lithium pack including price, company and total Ah? *Let me see if I can even find it... it was months and months ago*

Is the 25 cents per wh an assumption then? *Yes an assumption based upon some insight *

Thanks in advance.


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## TMack409 (Aug 20, 2018)

I have a SAFT nicad flooded cell 24v aircraft battery. Rated at 22Ah. I'm trying to make sure my math is correct for single cell charging. The data sheet from SAFT shows 3 ways to charge the entire 20 cell battery: 

(1) using 1/C charge at 22amps for 1 hour. 

(2) using .5/C charge for 2 hours at 11 amps. 

(3) using .1/C charge for 10 hours at 2.2 Amps. 

What would be the charge rates for single cell?? (Divide each of the above by 20 - is that correct?)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

TMack409 said:


> I'm trying to make sure my math is correct for single cell charging.
> ...
> What would be the charge rates for single cell?? (Divide each of the above by 20 - is that correct?)


No, that doesn't make sense. In the battery the cells are all 20 cells are connected in series, so the same current flows through all of them. Charging a single cell would take the same current and time combination as the entire battery, but the voltage required to push that current would be 1/20th of the voltage required for the battery. So, instead of something over 24 volts (for a 20-cell battery), you would need something over 1.2 volts (the NiCd nominal cell voltage.


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## TMack409 (Aug 20, 2018)

brian_ said:


> No, that doesn't make sense. In the battery the cells are all 20 cells are connected in series, so the same current flows through all of them. Charging a single cell would take the same current and time combination as the entire battery, but the voltage required to push that current would be 1/20th of the voltage required for the battery. So, instead of something over 24 volts (for a 20-cell battery), you would need something over 1.2 volts (the NiCd nominal cell voltage.



Thank you for the reply. I want to add that the battery is just over 38 years old. It was removed from service approx 34 years ago (Boeing 727) and sits on my work bench - it rarely, if ever, gets used, but alas i never stored it "discharged" as is recommended. However, virtually all the cells will still take and hold a charge... (a few cells that desperately needed distilled water are the most reluctant). 

SAFT has told me to recycle the battery ASAP - they obviously don't want the liability of having helped me "bring it back to life". and trust me, I have seen the results of NiCad thermal runaway onboard aircraft /several pilot friends have told me they've had to make emergency landings due to thermal runaway, even after being removed from the charger. 

So with all that being said, I'm not even going to try 1/C charge rates or even the .5/C charge rates. But I have been using C/10 (SAFT calls it 0.1 C A) which is the minimum required for it to even take a charge I'm told - and so far I've only been comfortable with an hour or so of 2.2Amp charging, for I just don't like seeing cell voltage rise much above 1.5v - which i do see after an hour or so. (This kind of premature rising voltage implies a dry cell). 

Deferring back to the data sheet for charging values, the language is not clear: in italics, the fine print says "until 30.0 V as battery voltage" (for 20 cells or 1.5V per cell). But the bolder print says 10 hr minimum for C/10 with a maximum of 12 hr. Then another 4 hours over overcharge at 2.2 A (C/10) which seems to be more for setting the proper electrolyte level. 

Before I try reaching for the recommended 10 hour charge (for C/10), I'm going to insert some HVAC thermocouples down along side the cell under charge.... (FYI I got the SAFT data sheet off of Sky Geek's web site and also, I'm using the SKYRC IMAX smart constant current charger model B6AC v2).

Thoughts?


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