# First post newbie - but I did read first!



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ok, I have read through a bunch of this forum before opening my yap, and am now thoroughly prepared to say something stupid...

I was hoping to do a conversion around the end of this year. I don't think my needs exceed what I am hearing here CAN be done, but to do it in my budget will probably be challenging.

I want:
- 50 miles range guaranteed
- 2 year battery life / 6 days per week usage
- 25 of those miles at 75 mph (hey, I live near Atlanta and they drive FAST!)
- Carry myself, my laptop, and one passenger (sometimes) for lunch
- Must Have Air Conditioning and Heating
- Manual tranny (or none) & steering and brakes ok for me, I'm in good shape
- $10,000 budget, of which I expect to spend $2,000 on a worn-out vehicle

My Preconceptions:
1. I was hoping the FireFly battery might do the trick, but other threads here suggest they may not be ready for prime time. Nonetheless, they may still be better than AGM in that they look like they can discharge further and more times before requiring replacement
2. I was thinking in terms of a mini-pickup, the thinking being that it would have the capacity to handle the weight of the number of lead acid batteries I would need to meet the above criteria (sounds like anything else is too expensive)
3. In two more years (when the batteries need replacing) there will be something better / cheaper available

Now, skipping those preconceptions, what would all you experts suggest? Is this set of requirements reasonable / possible today, or should I shelve it again until better / cheaper batteries are available?

Thanks!

Bill


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

I may not be an expert, but I play one on the intertubes...

With everything you've mentioned, I'll say it's possible, do-able, plausible, but that's still a tall order for lead acid to supply.

As with anything in life, there are trade-offs. You may have to trade your range for the speed you want, or trade your speed for the range you want.

Heat/Cool (imho) is a necessity, especially here in TX, at least on the cool part. Any time you're running it, you'll be running down your range. Conservative estimate may be as much as 20% range reduction for AC/Heat.

Yes... better batteries will be available for cheaper in time. I'm still waiting for this, 10 years... But it's closer to reality today than it was 10 years ago.

$8000 conversion budget w/o donor costs is plausible... but perhaps not to the extent of turning on all your options... I.E. $8000 likely won't buy you the ability to drive 75 mph for 50 miles with AC or Heat all at the same time.

In the IT world, we have a saying... "It can be good, fast, cheap. Pick two."


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## EV'er wannabe (Aug 1, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Ok, I have read through a bunch of this forum before opening my yap, and am now thoroughly prepared to say something stupid...
> 
> I was hoping to do a conversion around the end of this year. I don't think my needs exceed what I am hearing here CAN be done, but to do it in my budget will probably be challenging.
> 
> ...


Bill, did you get my e-mail?
Jerry


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

EV'er wannabe said:


> Bill, did you get my e-mail?
> Jerry


Not yet, but will shortly...


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> I may not be an expert, but I play one on the intertubes...
> 
> With everything you've mentioned, I'll say it's possible, do-able, plausible, but that's still a tall order for lead acid to supply.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the old triangle... Hope we don't have to do CMMI or Six Sigma just to have an EV! Maybe a Scrum or two...

Ok, assume a bit more budget - where does it go? Do I double the number of batteries (144v, parallel strings) and beef up the suspension on a small pickup? Or can I even get there with lead acid? How many recharge cycles REALLY before I'm hoppin' mad at the durned thing? Etc.

I guess I'm less than happy about the idea of going with more esoteric batteries if only because everything needs to be more complicated (chargers, etc.) as well as more expensive.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Is recharging at work an option?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Is recharging at work an option?


Hi Clint, 

At the moment, my commute is less than 13 miles. However, I am a consultant and my next gig may be further away. My "50 miles, 25 of which are highway miles" requirement is to get to the airport where I sometimes get to fly my airplane, or to accommodate a work situation further than 15 miles.

It would be possible to switch cars with my wife for the few times I currently (pun intended) travel further, but would prefer not to - and that would not give me the assurance I need that I am "covered" if my next work gig is a bit further away. 

My real bare-bones question is, has the time come yet when switching one of the family cars to electric is both a fundamentally sound economic decision and a practical decision. E.g. if I can build a car for under $10k and sell mine for $5k, I can recoup the difference in gas savings in just a couple of years - but that decision is no good if I am left with a car that will not reliably get me to wherever I work.


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## EVBug (Aug 19, 2008)

I think 25 miles at 75 mph, even with a pickup stuffed to the gills with lead batteries is really stretching it. I think if you did get it, the batteries would be dead somewhere between 1 and 2 years.

I think you could more realistically pull it off (for free!) if you'd just accept the limitation and slow down a little. 65 mph and get in the right lane.

You're not the only person dealing with road rage idiots. I live in the DC/Baltimore ghettoplex which is routinely noted in national studies as having the worst drivers in the nation. Just get in the right lane, and screw 'em.

I routinely do 15-20 miles at 55-65 mph when I travel to my reserve unit once per month. I have a 128v nominal pack. If you go 144v, you should be able to make 25 miles at 60-65 mph.

But...50 miles, with each 25 mile leg being at highway speeds? I dunno. Sounds pretty iffy to me. Have you researched alternate routes? Secondary roads with lower speed limits? One of the tradeoffs I've had to make is cruising longer distances at lower speeds on secondary roads. If I don't have to drive as far, or if charging is available at my destination, then I take the highway.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Dang. 50 miles is a pretty big concession already from a 300 mile range in my ICE car. 

Well, I guess I'll wait for EEstor or some such. Maybe the Phase 2 FireFly batteries will cut it - but I'm not ready to curtail my habits that much just yet.

Thanks for your answer, even if it wasn't what I hoped to hear!



Oh, and thanks for your service. I did 9 in the Air Farce - shouldn't be too hard from my "name" & avatar to guess what I did...


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

You could easily do 300 miles in an ev convserion... if you're willing to invest about $80k.

The average american drives less than 25 miles daily, with occasional needs to go farther.

For the record, I expect my truck will easily be able to do 60 miles range, which is more than double my daily needs, and my employer is seriously considering the cost of installing a charging station for me at the office.

It all depends on what your car is, the weight in lead, and most importantly how you drive.

If you're one of those guys who puts their foot to the floor until the needle says 75, you're not going to get very far even in one of the most advanced EVs on the road. For example, Tesla claims something like 250 miles range, but conservative drivers can get about 220 miles. The average Tesla driver averages about 120 miles. Why? Because it has so much fun factor it's hard to keep your foot out of it.

So why is it then that your gas car doesn't get affected nearly as much as an EV would by your driving habits (it does get affected, but not to the same degree) -- it's because your gas car already wastes at least 70% of the fuel you're putting into it as heat, and so a small percentage difference in driving efficiency is not as readily realized by many drivers. An EV wastes closer to 20% of the energy you're putting into it as heat, using about 80% for motive force. The smaller percentages make bigger differences in range.

If you take the late great Red Beastie that John Wayland and Dick Finley built as an example, it would get 120 miles range (or more!) depending on how it was driven. If you put your foot to the floor on it, and wound it out to ludicrous speed, it would probably have got more like 60 miles. That was a big heavy truck, though. Too heavy by the manufacturer's specification.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh, and one more thing... the small differences in an ICE efficiency are realized, but the average driver doesn't recognize.

For example, if I drive "like the rest of them" in my Tacoma, I will average ~17 mpg in the city. When I short shift and slow-accelerate and never exceed 60 mph, I average within 4/10ths of the 21 mpg EPA city rating. So that's to say I can go 306 miles on a tank, or 378 miles on a tank before the yellow light comes on. A difference of 72 "free" miles, which essentially means that for every 4.25 tanks I'd buy @ 17 mpg, I'd get a free tank worth of miles.

I'm not a coupon clipper, but this is one thing I'm gung-ho about... saving my fuel for distance, not for speed. I still get to work in about 15 minutes, but I can make an additional half-week of commutes round trip before I have to buy more gas.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hi Dj,



TX_Dj said:


> You could easily do 300 miles in an ev convserion... if you're willing to invest about $80k.


That's more than I have in my airplane, and my whole reasoning behind trying to get into a cheap electric is to help offset the cost of my hobby. Not that I don't want to help reduce pollution too - I've made several upgrades to my home - but when the penalty is too steep it doesn't make sense.



> The average american drives less than 25 miles daily, with occasional needs to go farther.


I'm right around 26 today, but the nature of being a consultant is that you don't know what your commute will be next year. If I cut the gasoline umbilical cord, I need to know with reasonable assurance that I could commute downtown if need be.



> It all depends on what your car is, the weight in lead, and most importantly how you drive.


For weight / car selection I was hoping for recommendations given my parameters. For my driving habits, well - I HAVE flown supersonic, and it seems unlikely that I will ever truly become a "conservative" driver.  That said, I have been successful at easing up on my accelerator to a degree. Aerodynamic and rolling drag for the economy cars is not that much greater at 70mph than at 50mph, so it was my hope that sizing the solution correctly would get me at least 50 mile range combined city/highway.

$80,000 will buy gas for a LOT of years (heck, even the interest would buy gas for a long time). The same argument gets made in airplanes, where we consider changing our engine to something more efficient like diesel. Retrofitting a Cessna with an SMA 230hp diesel will cost over $80,000, so that is a good comparison for your $80,000 EV conversion. It simply isn't possible to justify such a conversion from an economic standpoint, and until it is I will wait.

Back to the subject, though - does anyone have any real confidence that the claims by FireFly as to the number of discharge cycles their batteries can undergo without significant reduction in their maximum charge capacity? If just that part is true, it still MIGHT be worth an experiment to use 1,700 lbs of battery in a 144 volt configuration (12 pairs of batteries). If nothing else, if the vehicle doesn't meet my needs I could probably sell it to someone who would enjoy it.


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