# [evdl] Controllers



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

best in the sense of price being irrelevant there is probably little 
doubt that the cafe electric zillas are the best. they are not super 
cheap though. 2500-4500$ and 6 months waiting period.

for a cheap solution for a workable city car you might try the recent 
kelly 84v controller in a 400-600A model. they are not widely available 
yet and we don't have any long term experience with it yet (anyone?) but 
it's so relatively cheap that it's interesting. some few here have 
gotten them but not sure they have put them to significant use yet. 
maybe 400$. I forget the exact prices.

the middle ground and historically most used controllers are the curtis 
ones in the 1000+$ range

as for motors the 6.7-9" ADC models are often used but it's my 
impression that you can find equivalent used forklift motors of various 
brands much cheaper than the 1000-1600$ new price. someone else might 
chime in with their actual experience in that.

unfortunately an EV is made up of several other parts, mainly DC-DC 
supply, recharger and motor-gearbox coupling. the relatively low voltage 
of the kelly 84v might enable you to get away with similarly cheaper 
DC-DC and recharger. the DC-DC is the one that makes 12v to supply the 
electronics the car would normally get from the car battery/alternator. 
headlights, instrumentation etc. you also need a vacuum pump for the 
brake. something the combustion engine often supplies otherwise.

Dan




> torich wrote:
> > Which are the best controllers on the market today and which are the best
> > for cheap conversion?
> > Rich Va
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Raptor-1200-Electric-Vehicle-EV-DC-Motor-Controller_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46093QQihZ005QQitemZ150180779762QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

Dave,

Can you provide a link with details about "knife switch"?


A Zilla is for a DC conversion, how about AC contollers fitting the
requirement of this thread for a cheap conversion?

Thanks,

Ralph.




> dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 11/19/07, torich <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

> Dave,
>
> Can you provide a link with details about "knife switch"?
>

How about... http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/geog/gessler/topics/switches.htm
lol

I don't know of any "cheap" AC controllers. Most of the ones I have
seen are comparably priced to the Zilla -- good, but not cheap...

Z

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

Ralph

I apologize for my sarcasm, I was just trying to make the point that
you have a range of options. The Zilla (or Raptor, or Curtis) are very
popular controllers that work well, but are not cheap. The other end
of the spectrum, which is not totally out of the picture, can be as
simple as a battery pack, a motor, and a simple switch to turn it on
or off. A frankenstein style knife switch may be an
oversimplification, but many contactor controlers (simple switches)
have been built over the years. They work, they just aren't feature
packed. It can be a good way to get your feet wet. Upgrade as you go
along. Google contactor controller.

I couldn't afford AC, so I've gone DC. I haven't heard yet of an
inexpensive AC system. But, as Victor will telll you, if you consider
all the functionality involved in an EV conversion (motor, controller,
charger, DC-DC), my DC system may not have been much cheaper than an
AC system. But that's another discussion.

One of the best way to save money is to scrounge around. I bought a
rusted out conversion and salvaged a lot of parts. You may be able to
find an AC system this way. Buying someone elses conversion can be a
real money saver.

One more point. I'm all for going cheap if it means saving money that
I don't have to spend. When I talk about cheap, it means I found a
good solution for lower cost. But be very careful of going cheap by
buying low quality. That will bite you every time. WIth a conversion
there are definitely safety issues, don't cut corners. Find ways to
save money without paying a high price later on.

Sorry if I came across wrong before, but this is the right place for
the answers you seek.

Dave Cover



> R Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Dave,
> >
> > Can you provide a link with details about "knife switch"?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

I thought perhaps the "knife switch" was a brand of controller, sorry, my
mistake!



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > Dave,
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*



> R Patterson wrote:
> > Can you provide a link with details about "knife switch"?
> 
> I think that was a bit of a tongue in cheek solution; i.e. possible but
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] CONTROLLERS*

I think you should consider the 'knife switch' as mostly a joke. it's 
just a contact. full power on/off. either it will be a very low voltage 
system and slow, or the start will be extremely violent and I imagine 
the motor can melt because a motor at low rpm or even stall is a short 
circuit. I would say that if the kelly controller even works a little it 
is infinitely more elegant than the contactor 'controller' (knife switch)

AC has a tendency to be nastily more expensive partly because of 
complexity but I figure mostly because of being less widespread.
however I believe AC or pseudo AC (brushless DC) will soon win as it has 
some significant advantages.

no car maker will use DC so AC drive will become prolific as hybrids are 
mass produced.

Dan




> R Patterson wrote:
> > Dave,
> >
> > Can you provide a link with details about "knife switch"?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] controllers*

Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My Logisystem
controller will get so hot it will burn you if you touch it! And power drops
off about 30% and that's only after 10 miles and two hills!
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> On 13 Sep 2009 at 16:57, Sam Shepherd wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My Logisystem
> > controller will get so hot it will burn you if you touch it! And power
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Got a big heat sink and fan connected properly? Also I agree about the 
gears you use while driving. Watch those rpm's.


Pete 






> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My
> > Logisystem
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> you wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

> You want to pick the gear you drive in so that, when you're
> cruising, the controller is as close to full on as possible -
> ideally, foot to the floor (assuming, however, that you don't
> exceed the motor's RPM limit, which isn't apt to happen if you're
> running the motor at or near its rated voltage). Again, this is
> counter-intuitive for an ICE driver.

The "best" driving style is highly dependent on the vehicle's design -- 
the motor, controller, battery pack voltage, vehicle weight, whether it 
has a transmission or not, etc. The best style for a CitiCar, Jet 
Electrica, Solectria Force, or Tesla are considerably different!

If the pack voltage is much higher than the motor's rated voltage, then 
you're likely to overspeed the motor if you run the controller "wide open".

If you have an unusually powerful controller like a Cafe Electric Zilla, 
you definitely run at less than full throttle or you'll be exceeding the 
speed limit by a considerable margin.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
[email protected] | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My Logisystem
> > controller will get so hot it will burn you if you touch it! And power
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

I find it is best to mount a motor controller in the vertical plane where 
the heat sink does not transmitted so much heat back back up through the 
controller in the horizontal position.

I also mount the controller on 1/2 inch standoffs on a 1/4 inch aluminum 
chassis plate. I use a Dayton 6 inch blower fan rated at 150 cfm that not 
only blows outside ambient air over the controller surfaces, but also 
between the heat sink and chassis plate.

It is also best to enclose the controller in a housing which can control the 
flow of cooling air. The maximum ambient air temperature that is recorded 
was 105 F. at static pressure. (no flow or air under pressure. At 150 CFM 
into a enclosure, the air temperature is reduce to 95 F. The temperature of 
the heat sink never ran above 98 F.

Another thing you could do, is to run cooler air over the heat sink, if you 
have a air-conditional. The feed line that comes from the A/C pump which is 
the coldest line that has a insulated cover over it, remove this insulation 
and ether wrap a 3/8 inch rubber tubing around it that carries a coolant. 
This coolant comes from a small oil or transmission radiator that is place 
low in the front with a cooling fan.

This goes to a another oil cooler that sets between the heat sink and 
chassis plate. My controller has this set up built into it.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Kirchman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers


>
>
>


> > Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My
> > > Logisystem
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

I began to read this but stopped with a big laugh when it said the EV
can be operated with the accelerator floored for long periods.
I do have 300V and 75mph on the flats takes 25% throttle to maintain.
This is definitly only for a lower voltage EV with an underpowered
controller and should not be spread around. (Bad Press and dangerous)
>> You want to pick the gear you drive in so that, when you're
>> cruising, the controller is as close to full on as possible -
>> ideally, foot to the floor (assuming, however, that you don't
>> exceed the motor's RPM limit, which isn't apt to happen if you're
>> running the motor at or near its rated voltage). Again, this is
>> counter-intuitive for an ICE driver.
>
> The "best" driving style is highly dependent on the vehicle's design
> -- the motor, controller, battery pack voltage, vehicle weight,
> whether it has a transmission or not, etc. The best style for a
> CitiCar, Jet Electrica, Solectria Force, or Tesla are considerably
> different!
>
> If the pack voltage is much higher than the motor's rated voltage,
> then you're likely to overspeed the motor if you run the controller
> "wide open".
>
> If you have an unusually powerful controller like a Cafe Electric
> Zilla, you definitely run at less than full throttle or you'll be
> exceeding the speed limit by a considerable margin.
> -- 
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> [email protected] | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Jeff Shanab <xxx[email protected]> wrote:
> > I began to read this but stopped with a big laugh when it said the EV
> > can be operated with the accelerator floored for long periods.
> > I do have 300V and 75mph on the flats takes 25% throttle to maintain.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

I have a 96V system ADC 9", NAPA 6V golf car batteries, Kodiak 700A
controller. I cruise at 35-45MPH in 3rd gear, 2.5-3k RPM, 100-200
motor amps, 80-150 battery amps, pack at 87-97V . I do this at 25-50%
throttle. If I floor it my batteries sag to 84V (or less) and deliver
300-400A (temperature dependent), I simply cant floor it without
pulling the batteries too low.

I'd go for a higher RPM but something is out of balance or has a bad
bearing and it gets too bad at 3.5k RPM. Either way, the recommended
continuous max RPM for the ADC 9" is about 5k RPM.

It's true that I only get 20-30HP when I accelerate with as much
throttle as 84V 250-350 battery amps will give me. Kinda sucks. I want
a higher voltage!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Jon -
What vehicle is this? Any idea of total weight?
Phil Marino



> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I have a 96V system ADC 9", NAPA 6V golf car batteries, Kodiak 700A
> > controller. I cruise at 35-45MPH in 3rd gear, 2.5-3k RPM, 100-200
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Phil Marino <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Jon -
> > What vehicle is this? Any idea of total weight?
> > Phil Marino
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My Logisystem
> > controller will get so hot it will burn you if you touch it! And power drops
> > off about 30% and that's only after 10 miles and two hills!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under and
one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm thinking
now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
logisystems and they said it was ok to run em' hot.I'm using a transmission
and I go thru the "gear's" so unless I'm pulling a hill I'm hardly using any
amp's!!
There was some weird post's as to driving methods, pedal to the metal and
etc.I don't know anything about the "Raptor" is It good?
Thanks for the reply,
Sam
Oh, I had a Zilla for a while and it was more trouble than it was worth! So
I don't know what to use!







> Cory Cross <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My Logisystem
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Hello Sam,

What was wrong with the Zilla? I have now been running my Z1K in my 7000 lb 
EV since 2002. No problem at all. Otmar was worry that the Z1K was too 
small for my EV with that weight. I said, no problem at all because I have 
been running this EV with a 800 amp CableForm controller that weigh at one 
time at 8000 lbs with a overall gear ratio of over 19:1 and normally pull 
180 motor amps at 170 volt 300 AH 180 V battery pack.

One thing I did, was to correctly program the motor amps, battery amps, 
voltage limits, speed sensor and ran all double shield control wires leaving 
the internal shield floating and only connect one end of the outer shield 
wire to a large counter poise grounding system the goes around the perimeter 
the EV.

I also double grounded all the enclosures that are mounted in aluminum 
containers which are install in plastic containers. I use both large air 
cool fans and water cool heat sink. I use a very large coolant tank which 
the coolant circulates through a A/C type of radiator which is also cool 
with a radiator fan.

All coolant, heater and A/C lines are double insulated with that good A/C 
pipe insulation so as to keep the heat down under the hood. On a clear day 
at higher elevation the under temperature can get up to 140 F. Once I get 
moving, the under hood temperature will come down to the ambient air 
temperature and the ZiK heat sinks have never gone over 99 F.

The only trouble I had, was the very long time it took to build this rig 
from 1978 to 1985.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sam Shepherd" <[email protected]>
To: "ev list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers


> Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under 
> and
> one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm 
> thinking
> now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> logisystems and they said it was ok to run em' hot.I'm using a 
> transmission
> and I go thru the "gear's" so unless I'm pulling a hill I'm hardly using 
> any
> amp's!!
> There was some weird post's as to driving methods, pedal to the metal and
> etc.I don't know anything about the "Raptor" is It good?
> Thanks for the reply,
> Sam
> Oh, I had a Zilla for a while and it was more trouble than it was worth! 
> So
> I don't know what to use!
>
>
>
>
>
>


> Cory Cross <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > > > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under and
> > one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm thinking
> > now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

What's going on here? Controllers that burn up? Controller manufacturers
that state it's great to have a hot controller?

Well, believe it or not, semiconductors hate heat. Let the junction get
over 100 degrees C, and the life of that controller is greatly shortened. 
A controller should have a thermistor mounted on the base plate of the
transistor that will linearly reduce the maximum motor current as
temperature rises. As an example, up to 40 degrees, full current, start
reducing the motor current at 41 degrees, such that at 80 degrees motor
current = 10%. This will not only protect the semiconductors, but prevent
a hot controller that can cause flesh burns.

In my 30 years of experience with EV's, I have concluded the Curtis
controller, despite its shortcomings, is the controller "standard." The
Logisystems is just a Curtis on steroids, stressing an already thermally
challenged design. The Kelly is a very poorly designed controller that
won't even meet its own specifications. Solitron, Zilla are probably the
best around but cost more $$.

I built a Darlington module 650 amp liquid cooled controller ten years ago
that had a base plate temperature rise of 10 degrees F. over ambient. No
way that would burn your hand.

Am I going to have to start manufacturing controllers again?


Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering

http://russcoev.com

The Other Adjustable PFC Charger With Built In GFCI




> Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under
> and
> one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm
> thinking
> now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> logisystems and they said it was ok to run em' hot.I'm using a
> transmission
> and I go thru the "gear's" so unless I'm pulling a hill I'm hardly using
> any
> amp's!!
> There was some weird post's as to driving methods, pedal to the metal and
> etc.I don't know anything about the "Raptor" is It good?
> Thanks for the reply,
> Sam
> Oh, I had a Zilla for a while and it was more trouble than it was worth!
> So
> I don't know what to use!
>
>
>
>
>
>


> Cory Cross <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> >> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Russ,

=


Please do start manufacturing controllers. More choices are always better,=
and you have a good reputation for quality.

=


I'm not sure what is up with Cory's controller, but I have been very happy =
with my Logisystems. I had one of the original versions which did get fair=
ly hot. I measured it at about 130 deg farneheit on the outside of the cas=
e at the built in heatsink, but after that one gave up the ghost they repla=
ced it with one of their re-engineered models that I have been very happy w=
ith and does not seem to get nearly as hot. I'm running a 1000 amp 120 vol=
t version at 108 volts in my 2500lb Datsun pickup with a 6.7 inch ADC motor.

=


=


=


damon
=

> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:11:22 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers
> =

> What's going on here? Controllers that burn up? Controller manufacturers
> that state it's great to have a hot controller?
> =

> Well, believe it or not, semiconductors hate heat. Let the junction get
> over 100 degrees C, and the life of that controller is greatly shortened. =

> A controller should have a thermistor mounted on the base plate of the
> transistor that will linearly reduce the maximum motor current as
> temperature rises. As an example, up to 40 degrees, full current, start
> reducing the motor current at 41 degrees, such that at 80 degrees motor
> current =3D 10%. This will not only protect the semiconductors, but preve=
nt
> a hot controller that can cause flesh burns.
> =

> In my 30 years of experience with EV's, I have concluded the Curtis
> controller, despite its shortcomings, is the controller "standard." The
> Logisystems is just a Curtis on steroids, stressing an already thermally
> challenged design. The Kelly is a very poorly designed controller that
> won't even meet its own specifications. Solitron, Zilla are probably the
> best around but cost more $$.
> =

> I built a Darlington module 650 amp liquid cooled controller ten years ago
> that had a base plate temperature rise of 10 degrees F. over ambient. No
> way that would burn your hand.
> =

> Am I going to have to start manufacturing controllers again?
> =

> =

> Russ Kaufmann
> =

> RUSSCO Engineering
> =

> http://russcoev.com
> =

> The Other Adjustable PFC Charger With Built In GFCI
> =

> =

> =

> =

> > Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under
> > and
> > one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm
> > thinking
> > now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> > logisystems and they said it was ok to run em' hot.I'm using a
> > transmission
> > and I go thru the "gear's" so unless I'm pulling a hill I'm hardly using
> > any
> > amp's!!
> > There was some weird post's as to driving methods, pedal to the metal a=
nd
> > etc.I don't know anything about the "Raptor" is It good?
> > Thanks for the reply,
> > Sam
> > Oh, I had a Zilla for a while and it was more trouble than it was worth!
> > So
> > I don't know what to use!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


> Cory Cross <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > >> > Does anyone have problems with their controllers heating up?My
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

It's the late one including their new easy start Pot



> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > > Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> On 18 Sep 2009 at 12:11, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Am I going to have to start manufacturing controllers again?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

>
> Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under and
> one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm thinking
> now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> logisystems and they said it was ok to run em' hot.I'm using a transmission
> and I go thru the "gear's" so unless I'm pulling a hill I'm hardly using any
> amp's!!
> There was some weird post's as to driving methods, pedal to the metal and
> etc.I don't know anything about the "Raptor" is It good?
> Thanks for the reply,
> Sam
> Oh, I had a Zilla for a while and it was more trouble than it was worth! So
> I don't know what to use!

A zilla more trouble than it is worth? Huh?
I have never heard anyone who has had their hands on a zilla say
anything like that, so I am curious, what problems did you have?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Hi Sam,



> Sam Shepherd wrote:
> > Well, believe it or not, I AM using chill plates, two in fact, one under and
> > one on top with the two fans and it was still too hot to touch. I'm thinking
> > now that it was on the edge of burning up, scary stuff! I talked to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

> A zilla more trouble than it is worth? Huh?
> I have never heard anyone who has had their hands on a zilla say
> anything like that, so I am curious, what problems did you have?

I'm on the verge of purchasing my first controller and had been convinced by 
our group that the Zilla was far superior to the Curtis for reliability. I 
am willing to pay the $500 premium to buy the Zilla Z1K-LV vs. the Curtis 
1231C-8601 and wait a couple of months for its delivery. I would love to 
hear from y'all that I am making the right decision.

68 Datsun 1600
2000 lb original curb weight - 500 lbs removed
Already have ADC FB1 motor
Would like to have 144 V or 156 V battery pack (not sure of chemistry yet)
Pretty flat around here

Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom to this first time EVer.

Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA





_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Darren,
You are absolutely making the right decision if you are concerned at all
about quality and longevity of your EV controller. I'm not bagging on the
other controllers as there are many who have and are using them with great
success. But if you do buy the Zilla you can be absolutely sure it will
perform to your liking. There are several benefits to the Zilla in all its
added safety features which protect it from user error. I'm not saying you
will ever do anything wrong in hooking up or operating your contoller. But
I have. And both my Zillas are still alive and functioning well. And one
of them is in a dragster that I harsh on pretty good, and the Zilla still
lives ;-)

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Darrin
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers


> A zilla more trouble than it is worth? Huh?
> I have never heard anyone who has had their hands on a zilla say
> anything like that, so I am curious, what problems did you have?

I'm on the verge of purchasing my first controller and had been convinced by
our group that the Zilla was far superior to the Curtis for reliability. I
am willing to pay the $500 premium to buy the Zilla Z1K-LV vs. the Curtis
1231C-8601 and wait a couple of months for its delivery. I would love to
hear from y'all that I am making the right decision.

68 Datsun 1600
2000 lb original curb weight - 500 lbs removed
Already have ADC FB1 motor
Would like to have 144 V or 156 V battery pack (not sure of chemistry yet)
Pretty flat around here

Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom to this first time EVer.

Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA





_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

>
>> A zilla more trouble than it is worth? Huh?
>> I have never heard anyone who has had their hands on a zilla say
>> anything like that, so I am curious, what problems did you have?
>
> I'm on the verge of purchasing my first controller and had been
> convinced by our group that the Zilla was far superior to the Curtis
> for reliability. I am willing to pay the $500 premium to buy the
> Zilla Z1K-LV vs. the Curtis 1231C-8601 and wait a couple of months for
> its delivery. I would love to hear from y'all that I am making the
> right decision.
>
> 68 Datsun 1600
> 2000 lb original curb weight - 500 lbs removed
> Already have ADC FB1 motor
> Would like to have 144 V or 156 V battery pack (not sure of chemistry
> yet)
> Pretty flat around here
>
> Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom to this first time EVer.
>
> Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA 

I think you are. The zilla is a little more than just a controller,
some of the ECM functions have been included.
For example, it has stored error codes and can drive the "Check Engine"
light. Both counting flashes and connect a terminal and read them out.
You also of course get all the features that let you protect your
battery pack and motor and most importantly the additional safety features.
It can also drive the tach for you.

This is all info you already know?
I have had my zilla for 4 or 5 years now driving mostly every day, I did
damage it once and turn around for the repair was very fast.
How did I damage it? I stuck it under the hood unprotected, Thinking it
is sealed enough and we Californians don't get that much rain.
Well a couple seasons of road spray damaged the 15V supply I guess and
the dc-dc had to be replaced. I since put it in a box under the hood and
all is well.

So I will say this about Curtis, they are sealed well (at least
initially) It kind of surprises me when I see pictures of unprotected
zilla's in the album and such, Especially this one from the Seattle
area. http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/album05/nowires

It did take a year and a half of daily driving for my zilla to have it's
problem and we are only speculating that water damage was the cause, but
it has run longer than 1.5 years since I put it in the box. (Could it
have been the plasma event a few months prior, I gernaded the motor.)

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

> So I will say this about Curtis, they are sealed well (at least
> initially) It kind of surprises me when I see pictures of unprotected
> zilla's in the album and such, Especially this one from the Seattle
> area. http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/album05/nowires


Of course this is a picture under the hood of White Zombie which is rarely =
used beyond the drag strip and the drag strip is closed if there is any rai=
n 

=


In my case instead of putting the controller etc... in boxes, I have blocke=
d off my whole engine compartment so that it does not get road spray. I li=
ke to be able to pop the hood and show people the parts, not a bunch of PVC=
boxes.

=


damon
=

_________________________________________________________________
Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing=99 now
http://www.bing.com?form=3DMFEHPG&publ=3DWLHMTAG&crea=3DTEXT_MFEHPG_Core_ta=
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > What's going on here? Controllers that burn up? Controller manufacturers
> > that state it's great to have a hot controller?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > ...IMO another well-designed DC controller
> > will >always< be welcome in the EV world.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Darrin;

So far I've been happy with the 1200 Raptor in my 65 Datsun.
>From everything that I have heard, the Zilla is also a great controller.
In the past the only beef with it was the waiting time to get one.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Darrin [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers

> A zilla more trouble than it is worth? Huh?
> I have never heard anyone who has had their hands on a zilla say 
> anything like that, so I am curious, what problems did you have?

I'm on the verge of purchasing my first controller and had been
convinced by our group that the Zilla was far superior to the Curtis for
reliability. I am willing to pay the $500 premium to buy the Zilla
Z1K-LV vs. the Curtis
1231C-8601 and wait a couple of months for its delivery. I would love
to hear from y'all that I am making the right decision.

68 Datsun 1600
2000 lb original curb weight - 500 lbs removed Already have ADC FB1
motor Would like to have 144 V or 156 V battery pack (not sure of
chemistry yet) Pretty flat around here

Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom to this first time EVer.

Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA







_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> [email protected] wrote:
> >> Jeff,
> >> This is the first time I've heard about this control. I checked
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/cntrl and didn't see any vehicles with you're
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > The pictures came up this time. Nice looking control!
> > What type of line contactor are you using? I think you eliminated quite a few potential problems by having the contactor inside the control.
> > Good luck with your business!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

> We use two tyco/Kilovac EV200 contactors in parallel on the 1000A
> controller. We have detected no local temperature rise even at 800A on
> the battery side.
>

Where are you measuring? I'm assuming they connect right up to the heavy
copper busbars? On both contact terminals?

Will powered shutoffs be "logged" and require some sort of inspection
process?

-Ryan
-- 
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[email protected]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Those are nice contactors. When you say in parallel, do you mean connected to the same side of the battery pack or one in
> > + and one on the - side? If in parallel on the same side of the pack, how do you synchronize them?
> > Thanks,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*



> Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >> We use two tyco/Kilovac EV200 contactors in parallel on the 1000A
> >> controller. We have detected no local temperature rise even at 800A on
> >> the battery side.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] controllers*

If you want a high voltage controller look at the ones offered by Advanced
Motion Controls. I am using the 400 volt 100A one and it will work for
either a brushless motor or a brushed motor. Has most of the bells and
whistles that you need including some not found on many controllers.


-- 
When all else fails, remember failure is the success of knowing what not to
do.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] controllers*

Lots of yelling back & forth about controllers for the last 4 years here..Simple fact is that the ones doing the most yelling haven't a clue how they work. I take my hat off to Otmar, Ryan, and Sebastien. they did what very few people can or are willing to do, or have the knowledge . I couldnt build one, dont want to either . Now, which one is the best.. it dosnt matter, what matters is which one is right for the customer. Remember the Curtis, 1231, Its an anvil with wires, you cant hurt it. But its days are numbered with more people wanting higher voltages. So now 
how many lights,do-dads, do you really need? Do you really need 2,000AMPS. I dont think so, BuT if you want it ,its there for you. 

I had one of Ryans 360V &1400 amp units in my ElCamino and I will tell you the car was scary . much more power than the original 350 CID that was in it. Did I need that?? no ..I dont speed, just go back and forth to the shop, Did I like it??? Hell yes !!! . But it did have a problem and I sent it back, Ryan is working on it.. and now have a solution1 on it. Is it as good as the Net gain..it takes me back & forth to the shop,,thats all Im asking from ANY controller . Im not a racer...so which one is better. dont ask me..I ask the check book . I build what the customer wants . 
I make a challenge to the ones here doing all the bitching,,you build a controller, make it 100% efficant at full voltage/currant for 3 hours continues, with a voltage rateing of 12 to [email protected],000 amps, and sell it for 1500$ ...now you have all the bragging rights the planet has to offer 
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

ps i built a ev myself a conversion , im not yack yack ,, acdcev ,,, lonnie

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Cruisin [via Electric Vehicle Discussion
List] <[email protected]> wrote:

> More importanly, most of the yack yack about controllers and everything
> else here are from people who dont own and never will, any part of a EV.
> Some love to ask questions to see how people will respond, others critisize
> those who are attempting to answer the questions. Maybe those I am refering
> to should go back to their cel phone where they are in their comfort zone.
>
> ------------------------------
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
> below:
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/controllers-tp3418409p3796795.html
> To unsubscribe from controllers, click here<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=3418409&code=bGNhbGFyZWE0N0Bkc2xleHRyZW1lLmNvbXwzNDE4NDA5fDE2NjcxNjc1MDA=>.
>
>


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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

hi wandering , i haven't been here in long time [site ] . has anyone ever
built / sell a good controller YET ??ie one without probs ,,plus the new
ev,s coming out what about there controllers . 

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/controllers-tp3418409p3796770.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

More importanly, most of the yack yack about controllers and everything else
here are from people who dont own and never will, any part of a EV. Some
love to ask questions to see how people will respond, others critisize those
who are attempting to answer the questions. Maybe those I am refering to
should go back to their cel phone where they are in their comfort zone.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/controllers-tp3418409p3796795.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

Lonnie,

There are several good controllers out there. There is the Zilla line
which is back in production again, it has an excellent track record.
There are the two from Evnetics the Soliton1 and Soliton Jr, there are
the Synkromotive, Warp Drive, and probably others which are quality
controllers. Then there are the ones like the Sevcon controllers like
the one in my Gizmo which has been very solid. What are you looking
for?

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:42 AM, lcalarea47 <[email protected]> wro=
te:
> hi wandering , i haven't been here in long time [site ] . has anyone =
ever
> built / sell a good controller YET ??ie one without probs ,,plus the =
new
> ev,s coming out what about there controllers .
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/controllers-tp3418409p3796770.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

I've been running a Kelly Controller in my conversion for over a year. No
problems so far. I've corresponded with the factory to get an adapter so I
could reprogram some of the throttle settings and they were responsive.

One caution I would give on the Kelly Controllers: Treat their power
ratings as very optimistic. If it is rated as 500A, view it as a 250A
controller for all practical purposes. If you do that, you might be
positively surprised once in a while, but you won't be disappointed. If you
really thought it was a 500A controller, you would be disappointed. =


A 500A controller (giving 250-275A) is actually a good match for Thundersky
100Ah cells. They don't want to provide more than about 275A-300A anyway.

Mike
www.evalbum/2778


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of David Nelson
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 5:13 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers
> =

> Lonnie,
> =

> There are several good controllers out there. There is the Zilla line
which is
> back in production again, it has an excellent track record.
> There are the two from Evnetics the Soliton1 and Soliton Jr, there are the
> Synkromotive, Warp Drive, and probably others which are quality
controllers.
> Then there are the ones like the Sevcon controllers like the one in my
Gizmo
> which has been very solid. What are you looking for?
> =

> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:42 AM, lcalarea47 <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> > > hi wandering , i haven't been here in long time [site ] . has anyone
> > > ever built / sell a good controller YET ??ie one without probs
> > > ,,plus the new ev,s coming out what about there controllers .
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] controllers*

hi exactly ,,,,,over rated kelly , add boat lead of lead , died up going up
a hill ,,, thx 4 input ,, lonnie,

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Mike Nickerson [via Electric Vehicle
Discussion List] <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been running a Kelly Controller in my conversion for over a year. No
> problems so far. I've corresponded with the factory to get an adapter so I
>
> could reprogram some of the throttle settings and they were responsive.
>
> One caution I would give on the Kelly Controllers: Treat their power
> ratings as very optimistic. If it is rated as 500A, view it as a 250A
> controller for all practical purposes. If you do that, you might be
> positively surprised once in a while, but you won't be disappointed. If
> you
> really thought it was a 500A controller, you would be disappointed.
>
> A 500A controller (giving 250-275A) is actually a good match for Thundersky
>
> 100Ah cells. They don't want to provide more than about 275A-300A anyway.
>
> Mike
> www.evalbum/2778
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=0>[mailto:[hidden
> email] <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=1>] On
> > Behalf Of David Nelson
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 5:13 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] controllers
> >
> > Lonnie,
> >
> > There are several good controllers out there. There is the Zilla line
> which is
> > back in production again, it has an excellent track record.
> > There are the two from Evnetics the Soliton1 and Soliton Jr, there are
> the
> > Synkromotive, Warp Drive, and probably others which are quality
> controllers.
> > Then there are the ones like the Sevcon controllers like the one in my
> Gizmo
>
> > which has been very solid. What are you looking for?
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:42 AM, lcalarea47 <[hidden email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=2>>
>
> > wrote:
> > > hi wandering , i haven't been here in long time [site ] . has anyone
> > > ever built / sell a good controller YET ??ie one without probs
> > > ,,plus the new ev,s coming out what about there controllers .
> > >
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/controlle
> > > rs-tp3418409p3796770.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion
> > > List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > > | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> > > |
> > > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=3>only.
> > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > > | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> > | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> > |
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=4>only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [hidden email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3797565&i=5>only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
> below:
>
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>
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] Controllers*

Good Morning, this maybe a little OT, but though I would ask.

I have a project that needs a little bigger controller, can I paraell 2 30 amp ones to get the 45 amps I need for the motor?

Thank you 

Jerry 
ETC...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controllers*

Jay Summet wrote
> 
> ...I *think* it should possible to have two DC PWM controllers feed a
> very large capacitor, which then feeds the motor. If the capacitor was
> large enough, you may not need to synchronize the two controllers......
> 

No, that's about the worst possible thing you could do. Pretty much all DC
and AC motor controllers (current source inverters being the notable
exception) expect to work into an inductive load, not a capacitive, nor even
a resistive, one.

Generally speaking, you should *never* connect a capacitor across the output
terminals of a motor controller.

Note - you can connect a capacitor across the armature terminals, only, of a
series DC motor. That is sometimes recommended to reduce EMI/RFI emissions,
but in this case the field inductance shields the controller from the
capacitive reactance.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controllers*

Lee Hart wrote
> ....When a buck 
> converter is used to power a motor, designers frequency "cheap out" and 
> use the motor's inductance as the buck converter's inductor....
> 

"Cheap out"?!? Seriously?

Not duplicating components or functionality unnecessarily is the very
essence of good engineering.

Besides, an inductor big enough to present a reasonable amount of inductance
with 1000A (heck, 500A) of DC bias is going to be about the size of the
motor...




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Controllers*

Lee Hart wrote
>> ....When a buck converter is used to power a motor, designers
>> frequency "cheap out" and use the motor's inductance as the buck
>> converter's inductor....



> Jeffrey Jenkins wrote:
> > "Cheap out"?!? Seriously?
> 
> Seriously!
> ...


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