# Sticky  Building the EV Powerglide Transmission



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

EDIT; it appears that Photobucket decided to allow photos to be used without me paying a fee. Thank you Photobucket for the EV community!

This thread is to document the modifications and rebuilding of a Powerglide transmission when used in an Electric vehicle application.

The Powerglide whys and wherefores have already been discussed in great length in several other threads. This one is just for the technical side.

Basically any aluminum cased Powerglide will work. (no cast iron models are used) Reserve the air cooled ones for lighter vehicles as The fluid cooling path was deleted in them so they can not be converted for heavy vehicle use without some bother.

There is no special advantage to a rear pump model, as we will not be "Push starting". The front pump keeps pressure up and the transmission stays in gear clear down until about 50 RPM's. (You can regen down to 50RPM's with only a front pump. Your regen is into the dead zone by then and has shut off.)

Powerglides used in 4, 6, and 283 V-8 models were a lighter duty type and had a 1.82 low and reverse ratio. Most all 327 and up V-8 models were the standard duty 1.72 ratio. I prefer the 1.82 models that the racers don't like.

* The first pic is a 4 year old TCI built "Circleglide".*

It has been converted to oval track racing by a full manual valve body, removed governor and direct drive coupler. The side case flanges have been sawed off to allow a flex-plate scattershield to fit. (not necessary in an EV application.)

Low gear is applied by a band that clamps around the forward planetary drum forcing the planets to rotate (low gear)
This one just removed from our victim transmission is a Kevlar lined model.

Kevlar is not really needed or wanted for EV use. Kevlar is for slip-starting cars in gear. Our motor is at zero shaft RPM's when we engage low gear.

We are using the Red Racing type. The stock Raybestos will work fine too.

The low band is tightened by hydraulic action against a servo (Piston). 

*Pic 2 is the standard single seal piston and our upgraded two ring model. ($25)* 

A high gear clutch pack locks up the planetary giving a straight through power path (high gear). It uses clutches. (4 to 10 of them depending on motor power)


We are using 6 clutch plates with the Red Racing lining. It is supposed to be good up to 500 HP. 

The planetary comes with an aluminum center hub. An upgrade to a steel hub is a good thing. (and cheap at $40). 

*Pic 3-All of those holes are for the oil trapped between the clutch plates to drain through and speeds up the shift.*

That leaves reverse. It uses clutches to stop the sun gear forcing the planets to rotate backwards. There are 5 clutch plates. We can eliminate 2 and get by on 3 easily due to our light weight car and the ability to back up slowly and gently.

We use stock Raybestos compound for reverse.

The reverse clutches and steel plates rotate when in low and high gear. They are not pressed together, but they have oil drag so more plates mean more drag in low and high. (We only need 1 to be honest).

*Pic 4-The reverse clutches are splined directly in the aluminum transmission case. There is always some wear. (Trans brakes wear cases there) There is an upgrade called "case-savers". *

They are stainless steel inserts that go into the factory slots and stop any future wear and provide for slick reverse clutch operation.

Well, Enough for one day. Tomorrow we go into the tear-down and inspection.

Miz


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

So you are using the hydraulic/piston setup to manually engage the low gear band from a start? Does that require pushing a pedal to engage the transmission from a stop?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

No, an aux. pump provides pressure. It will be covered later in the thread.

Miz


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Interesting.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Day 2:

The first thing to realize is that you never get all of the oil out of anything...
Your work bench will get oily. Plan for it. AND...Take a lot of pictures as you go. (Unless you are a powerglide Pro).

Pan removal. Nothing magic. Remove the bolts-remove the pan. Notice what is in the pan. Metal? Paper? Water? Smell the oil....OK or burned?

Remove the oil inlet screen. (center top rectangle hole) *First pic*


Remove the shifter detent assy. and spring.* (lower left in second pic)*

Remove the plate that holds the shift shaft in and out thrust. (lower right)
Remove the outer dark colored bolts. 9 of them.
Lift out the valve body.

This one is a full manual unit. *Third pic is manual valve body*


Unscrew the low band adjuster screw. (left side by where the shift shaft comes out)

Remove the low gear servo. It is under the small cover on the right/front side of the case. 

The cover has 3 bolts. Pull and the servo/shaft unit will pop out.

Remove the large band apply spacer. (between the band and adjuster screw)

Remove the small band spacer. (on the servo side of the band)

Remove the input shaft by just pulling
.
Remove the front pump bolts.* 5th pic*

Remove the front pump by tapping it out from inside of the case with a slim rod.

Remove The front band.* 6th pic*

Remove the front planetary unit.

Remove the tail extension housing. (5 bolts)

Remove the speedo drive gear by pressing the clip and sliding it to the rear. (Don't lose the small clip)
.
Remove the governor assy.

Remove the rear bushing support plate. Sometimes it is also the rear pump cover too.* 7th pic *


Remove the planetary. *8th pic*

Remove the giant circlip and remove the reverse clutches and plates. These are in the bottom of the case. *9th pic*

Next, you will need to make one of these tools. It is used to compress the reverse apply piston so the retainer ring can be removed. *10th pic*


Compress the piston.


Note the piston retract springs. They are larger than the forward clutch apply piston springs and can not be switched. (Well, maybe if you try real hard)

Note the reverse apply piston, bottom. (the front piston is shown on top for reference). * 4th pic*


Remove the forward clutch pack piston.


Notice more springs. These are smaller. *12th pic*


More next week end.

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Very Well done so far. I have experience with 700r4 and th350, but not with powerglide! Cant wait to see how it all works out for you.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

few2many said:


> Very Well done so far. I have experience with 700r4 and th350, but not with powerglide! Cant wait to see how it all works out for you.


I've had experience with a 700R4 in a half-ton pickup. With only light use it seems to have needed rebuilding annually.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

May have been the lighter 200r4 or just the older, light duty one. I had one from an old 350 diesel that I put behind a built 350 with 37" tires, no probs!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The real downfall of ALL automatic transmissions is the need for the clutch apply pressure to be held by bushing/shaft fit. The clearance only gets bigger with use and lowers the pressure which in turn accelerates bushing wear.

Synthetic oil helps this immensely.

Miz


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Miz,

With size and weight being a major concern for most EVs, I would have thought that you would have removed the bell housing and gone for connecting the motor with an adapter to the front pump bolts.

I would like to fit a powerglide in a 318i BMW and want to go this route because of space concerns.

Can you explain a little about the pros and cons concerning keeping/removing the bell housing?

Thanks again for all your great info and taking the time to explain the rebuild step-by-step.

Eric


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Cool. I'm glad you asked. I have forgotten so much that it takes a slight "nudge" sometimes to get an idea.

1. The powerglide bellhousings are replaced for one major reason...They are light weight and crack easily. What ever I replace one with will weigh more than the original. (The original is strong enough for our purposes).

2. You only gain some diameter room from the switch. (That area is usually the largest spot in the car tunnel area already).

3. You can remove the stator support tube (the long tube in the pic) *Pic 1*

Then shorten the input shaft to gain a 2" length savings. (If you weld it to your adapter)* Pic 2*

4. The bellhousing is easy to remove. It gets cut off ala sawzall, then sanded down with a disk grinder to just lower than the pump surface. The new adapter or bellhousing bolts on using the factory pump bolts. (using longer bolts)

5. You can do the same thing in the rear. Change to a "shorty" output shaft, (losing 8"-9", but costing $500 as it requires a short bearing/yoke flange and short output shaft to be installed to the planetary shell.)

As stated elsewhere, you can build a motor/Powerglide unit that is so short that the motor/transmission unit is as long as the old powerglide alone and the outside diameter is only as large as the main case it'self.

My Powerglide weighs in at about 75# as it is. For $1,000 in parts I might lose 10Lbs & lose 11" or so in length. Neither of which are critical in my application.

If you need the space, then money is well spent.

Miz


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## matthieu149 (May 9, 2011)

Thank you for starting this thread!
I plan to use a powerglide for my 1985 RX-7 conversion.
I have read in a few thread you have already contributed, but the technical/fabrication aspect was somehow missing!

I am also very interested into this already built transmission:
http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html
(major concern are price, output shaft dimension and speedometer connection)
Feel free to comment if you have some advice about this one! 

I am presently looking for a used powerglide in my area, To take measurements and see what I can do myself!

Here is the e-mail exchange I had with Dwain from KansasEv.



> Hi,
> 
> I am very interested about you 2 speed "EVGlide Power Train" transmission.
> I would like to know if you have some data sheets with detailed specifications.
> ...





> What specifications were you looking for? Gear ratio's, low = 1.82-1, high = 1-1. Shifts to all gears is manual. The motor is coupled directly to the transmission input shaft. The gears are a planetary gear set and therefore there is no engaging or disengaging of gears. The clutches are hydraulic and internal. They are controlled by the hydraulic valve system. You also have reverse and neutral. There is a park position with a parking pawl to lock up the transmission just like any automatic transmission. This is a big advantage over a regular manual transmission on any electric vehicle. We sell the transmission without the motor. The transmission comes with the transmission adapter plate, The motor adapter plate and the coupler on the front. The back has a shortened tail shaft splined for a chevy yoke and a short tailshaft housing. There is no provision for a speedometer as we would not know what vehicle it was going to be used in. We can get some adapter kits for some vehicles for a speedometer. The cost including the items listed above is $2875.00 U.S. The cost of shipping would be approximately $200.00. You would need to secure your own custom broker. The adapter plate and coupler will fit the standard Warp 11 motor.
> 
> Dwain Swick





> Thank you for your answer!
> 
> I was looking for some dimensions, weight, power rating, electrical and mechanical connectivity details and warranty.
> 
> ...





> I'm including some dimensions from the adapter plates on the front of the EVGlide to the outboard end of the tailshaft. This is from the face of the motor where it mounts to the adapter plate to the end of the tailshaft. This length is 16 1/2". The height is 12" and the width is 14 1/2". The width doesn't include the auxiliary pump. When we normally mount the pump on a bracket on the side of the tranny, it adds 4 1/2" to the width. The pump could be mounted anywhere near the tranny and just plumb the two lines accordingly. The big part of the width is the bottom flange and the pan. The main body of the tranny is about 10" wide and the adapter plates are 10" wide. The EVGlide weighs 90 lbs. There are no electronics in the tranny, it is all mechanical and hydraulic. Any aftermarket shifter with cable for a powerglide will work on this unit. I don't know a power rating. These powerglides are the darling of the dragsters. I got the idea from a guy in the next town. He ran a dragster which held the record for a naturally aspirated dragster for some time. He was running a modified powerglide. They were using a modified powerglide that was manual shift. They attached a solenoid to the shift lever on the tranny that was wired to the tachometer. When the RPM reached a set speed it triggered the solenoid and shifted from low to high. The driver never let up on the throttle. I thought these were very rugged little beasts. We modified these for use with an electric motor. We removed the bell housing and made up adapter plates to connect the motor direct. We modified the valve body to make it manual shift and beefed up the clutches and some other parts like the dragsters used. Since these are so popular with the racers, there is a lot of parts on the aftermarket. We warrant this unit for one year.
> We could use a standard tailshaft and housing. It is made for a mechanical
> drive. I don't know if the cable ends would work or not and I don't know if the gear ratio would be correct or not. You would need to do some research. Many are doing conversions and use GPS speedometers. Some of these have and odometer also.
> 
> Dwain Swick





> Thank you!
> I will check with my 3D CAD, see how the transmission would fit in my car and do some research for the speedo. If everything work, I will mail you back, probably this fall. Did you usually carry you transmission in stock? What would be the production and shipping delay?
> 
> Regards,
> ...





> You can take a standard aluminum powerglide without the bell housing and that will give you the configuration. We were carrying some in stock but have just been cleaned out. We have some in process but are trying to find some hard to find parts. It might take a few weeks to get inventory back. You understand some parts of our units come from used powerglides.
> 
> Dwain Swick


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Or just buy a TCI 742011 "Circleglide" from Jegs for $1,001.99 USD. and cut the bell off with a saw and sand it down to the existing flat. Use the pump I show in the thread. (later). 

http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/742011/10002/-1?parentProductId=744272#moreDetails



OR, Get an old one and follow my instructions. It is easier than it looks and would cost about $400 USD less.

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I noticed you are using a shurflow electric, rv style pump. How well will it work with hot oil?Are you at all worried about the amount of heat the rotating assembly will create in the oil 
Sorry, I am a smartass. 
What are the specs on youre pumps? I use some of those at work, they are set to 65 -75 psi and can be run off ac, or dc. At least, the ones we use can. They have a 120v dc motor that runs on a rectifier.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It is a 150PSI model. It is rated at 275 deg. F. max operating temp.
The transmission was running at 140F-160F.
It is permanent magnet,12VDC powered and has Viton valves, but some other thing for the diaphragm. It has served fine for 78 miles, even with huge internal transmission leaks. I forget the price but If I guessed maybe $100 USD.

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow, thats really good! Sounds like it is working well. What is the set point you are using for the auxiliary pressure?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Nothing is adjustable. 

The transmission throttling valve sets the transmission internal pressure like it normally does. 

The pump switch is off at 150 and on at about 130, but due to the bad bushings, the transmission internal leaks were making it run 100% of the time unless the car was driving (when the transmission front pump ran).

When the transmission is rebuilt, all that should change. The pump will run when the key is turned on and shuts off when the pressure stays 150PSI. It should "pulse", on-off-on-off, like an electric fuel pump, then shut off completely when the transmission is turning (car driving).

With no-pump, You press the throttle very easy and the motor would start turning, about 1-2 seconds-at about 50-100 RPM, the tires would chirp and the car would start moving (forward or reverse). If you mash the throttle hard, the car will hammer into gear and the tires will scream bloody murder and the car will jolt forward and haul ass. 

The forward holding band becomes a clutch. It was never designed to see this kind of abuse and will fail sooner or later. The Kevlar band might survive a year or so like this in a light weight car. The Red Racing or stock Raybestos bands will fail in a week or month at best.

I have this cockeyed notion to put a pressure accumulator in the pressure circuit and run no pump, But am too chicken to try it. The accumulator should let the hydraulic pressure ramp up slower and cushion the engagement. Maybe allowing a more normal car driving experience, without the external pump....(Just a theory) If anyone wants to test this for me, please PM me and let me know how it came out.

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

If you put in an accumulator could you fit a pressure gauge and just spin the drive motor, in neutral, for a few seconds to build up pressure before you select drive and pull away as normal?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes you can do that. My intention was to make it drive as normal as possible without anything special. If you put an electric valve on the accumulator it will keep the accumulator charge while driving. It would shut off and store the oil then charge the transmission when you turn the key back on.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> Yes you can do that. My intention was to make it drive as normal as possible without anything special. If you put an electric valve on the accumulator it will keep the accumulator charge while driving. It would shut off and store the oil then charge the transmission when you turn the key back on.


The cost of the accumulator is almost twice what the pump costs.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

A thought about a possible problem with an accumulator.

Depending on it's volume, possible overfilling and/or fluid starvation of the transmission.

Another reason to stay with a pump

Jim


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Good thread Miz. Since I'm building a T-bucket, I've been keeping up with your thread. I really like the idea of using a powerglide. I will be starting off with a T5 since I got both my S10 rear axle and T5 for $150. I think the wife will find a powerglide easier to use, so I will be looking to pick one up and modify in the near future.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Jim:

The optimum fluid level on a powerglide is 3/4" below the case hole where the dipstick tube plugs in. (it is actually above the pan gasket seam.) 

The only critical time for an overfill condition is when Things are turning. Parked is not so critical because nothing is turning to agitate the oil. You just need a tight transmission, like usual. 

When using an accumulator, you need to fill the transmission, then fill the accumulator, then set the fluid level in the pan, with the dipstick.

This will duplicate the operating condition while driving and things are "flying" around inside the transmission, normal oil level, accumulator filled.

You stop driving, the accumulator bleeds back keeping the low band engaged. When you start out, the oil level will be over full. But the planetaries will be stopped or very slow. the accumulator will refill very quickly as you go, my theory has it that the accumulator refills so fast that the time the extra oil is present, is of no consequence. 

I have actually tested this by overfilling 2qts too much and driving around. 

One point not mentioned.....

My dip stick tube hole in the transmission case is threaded 1/2"NPT. A heater hose fitting is screwed in there. I use a piece of 3/4" silicone heater hose there and cut off the dipstick tube to match. It gives a completely fluid tight connection that will not leak there as it eliminates the pesky o-ring.

I feel a 1qt. Accumulator will be sufficient, if the transmission is internally tight.


Anyways, that is another test for another day...

Miz


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

mizlplix said:


> Or just buy a TCI 742011 "Circleglide" from Jegs for $1,001.99 USD. and cut the bell off with a saw and sand it down to the existing flat. Use the pump I show in the thread. (later).
> 
> http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/742011/10002/-1?parentProductId=744272#moreDetails
> 
> ...


Both the Jegs and the Kansasev Powerglides are set up for manual shifting. Are you doing the same, or maintaining the "automatic" aspect of the the Powerglide ? 

If someone wanted to maintain the "automatic" behaviour of any AT, what is the advantage to doing all the work you've laid out here vs. using the AT as is, including torque converter, and simply setting the motor controller to spin the motor slightly below stall speed ?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

95% of my driving is city streets.....0-45 mph. I don't want it to shift. But I still wanted high gear for expressway driving if I so chose.

A circle glide has had a steel forward hub installed. A tougher low band. Half of the valve body gutted, some reverse clutches removed for lower friction. The torque converter removed for lower overall weight, lower rotating mass and lower heat. Actually, the torque converter is 90% of the total heat.

An automatic shift transmission would have worked I guess, but this one is a tad lighter.

Ah....the torque converter....yes, you can retain it and idle the motor about 50rpms to keep the low gear band engaged. I just see them as current wasters. Both idling, rotating weight and slippage are not optimal in an EV.

To be fair, a low stall converter can be made to make it better for our use though and the lock up feature of some can be turned on early in first gear for lower slippage.

Miz


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## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ah, yes. I had forgotten how heavy a TC can be and the rotating weight and drag on the motor could eat a lot of watts, couldn't it ? 

I wonder if the drag would be less on a CVT or even if continuous spin is necessary for a CVT like the one in the Murano. I'll have to research how those work. All I know about them at this point is that reliability was poor for some years.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Seems like the CVTs are more for catering to the narrow power band of an ICE. Most electric motors used in conversions seem to be efficient enough over a wide range to make the cost and complication of the CVT not worth it. 

Seems to me that the perfect EV trans for most street conversions is one like this powerglide that can keep the amps reasonable at takeoff but keep the rpms reasonable on the highway. 

Miz, do you think the lack of engine braking on a non regen conversion would cause any problems in low gear at high road speed? I know drag racers are always arguing about powered vs non powered down shifts with manual valve bodies. The circle track guys don't spend much time in low gear either as far as I know. Seems like the lack of engine resistance could let a drum overspeed or something like that.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Dan: (and eveyrone else) We are starting to drift...

In my first page of this thread I said:


> The Powerglide whys and wherefores have already been discussed in great length in several other threads. This one is just for the technical side.


I wish this thread to stay focused on purely mechanical issues during the powerglide rebuild. There are a couple of other powerglide threads to post operational questions.

If asked in them,I would be pleased to answer.

(not trying to be an ass), Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

When reassembling the transmission, it needs to be in the verticle position, to make things fit. I have devised a simple stand that does this.

It is made from an old implement disk, a 12" piece of electrical conduit, 10" X 1" x 1/4" flat bar and a 5" piece of 1" X 1" angle. *pic 1*

The internals can be assembled, end play set and then it can be removed from the stand and placed flat on the table for final assembly.

As mentioned previously, a hole must be drilled in the front pump's high pressure port to accept the pre-charge pump output.

"X" marks the spot. (to drill)...Heh...(1/4" NPT for me) *Pic 2 & 3*

When inspecting your transmission, one place is really very critical. 
The front pump bushing contact area, where it rides inside the front planetary hub.* Pic 4*

This is a sealing area that holds the high gear apply pressure. This one is too far gone to save....(Crap) It is easy to tell, just place the new bushing over it and it flops around a LOT. NOTE: that small oil hole seen near the copper thrust washer gets drilled out for extra oiling. (More later)

If you place the two gears in mesh, on a flat area and pull the bigger one with the smaller one without unmeshing, they are good to reuse. *Pic 5*

Notice how far these get out of contact and barely stay engaged. They are almost out of spec.

A worn bushing contact area, the gear wear and the pump gear cavity side scratches and it all sez I need another pump.....

More tomorrow, (Yes, I am playing sick from work.) Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today was "bushing Day".

I started replacing the 5 really important bushings. By that, I mean the ones that assist in holding hydraulic pressure or the thrust areas.

The first was this one in the bottom of the case. It was the hardest to do because of the location. *Pic 1- bottom bushing*
The old one must come out first.

I Use a AWL/punch that was converted to a small chisel.
You just collapse one side and it pops right out. *Pic 2- old bushing*

And the one inside the forward drum
It is the key to holding clutch apply pressure in high gear. *pic 3 is the all important bushing*

And the one inside the front pump-
It keeps up pump pressure and the front drum aligned for the band to grip.(low gear) 

Followed by-the one in the tail shaft housing. 
It holds the driveshaft slip yoke.

I also discovered a broken reverse drum to input shaft Bronze thrust washer. * Pic 4 bushing is almost always cracked*

So off to the internet I go to order a $4 part and $12 in shipping.

Ya Hoo, Miz


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Miz.

I wish this thread was available when I was attempting to rebuild a 700R4.You should make a how-to CD. I think it would sell well.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thank you for the kind words.

This portion of the thread is intentionally vague. It just shows the important things of note.

When we get to the reassemble phase of the build, it will get more detail and better pics. (or this thread would have been really long)

Miz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Again, great job on the thread. In choosing your Powewrglide, what were you looking for? Did you consider the Corvair Powerglide? It should be the same trans, and lend itself well to evs. You can eliminate the full axle, large drive shaft and get IRS! 
Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but kinda on topic.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Short answer: Yes I feel the Corvair Powerglide would do well. The torque converter eliminating coupler might even be easier to make. It would be tire size picky because it has few ring and pinion ratios to swap out for gearing optimization. 2 speeds means a motor with a lot of RPMs........or geared (tire size) perfect and lots a torque.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

This is an addendum to my above post.

This thread is about the Powerglide transmission because it is plentiful, parts are plentiful, it is simple, light weight and strong.

All of what is covered here applies to all automatic transmissions. They are just heavier and more expensive, but will work fine in an E.V.

A powerglide has only one planetary. Most transmissions have 2-3 or 4. Granted, most planetaries are a "single" design, the powerglide has a "double" planetary unit.

There is a single ring gear on the outside, twin stacked sun and planet gears in the middle. One sun gear receives the power flow from the input shaft and the other sun gear transmits the power to the second planetary to make it turn backwards (reverse).

When the front drum is held, the forward planets turn, rotating the output several times for every one of the input (low gear). When the drum is free to rotate and the center is locked up by the clutches, it becomes a solid unit giving a 1:1 thru-put, in and out (high gear). When the front drum can rotate, the front planets can rotate and the rear ring is held by the reverse clutches, the rear planets rotate also, giving a reverse rotation to the output shaft. (reverse gear).

The beauty of this transmission is this:

1-It is aluminum. (light weight)
2-It has one planetary. (low rotating moment)
3-When in high gear, it is a solid rotating piece. (low rotating friction)
4-Easy to find one.
5-Easy to get parts.
6-Can be built to handle thousands of HP.
7-Can be shortened and made 14" in diameter, if necessary.
8-Needs no external cooler.
9-Has many different shifters -cable, shaft and electric.

Alas, the one draw back is the automatic shifting mode requires a vacuum modulator along with a centrifugal governor. That system uses a varying vacuum signal to modify the primary throttle pressure to tell it when to shift up and down. I suppose with testing, the centrifugal governor might be made to shift it alone. 

I chose a full manual modification which discards both the governor and the modulator. It requires me to shift manually from low to high and down again. 
An electric solenoid kit is available to make it shift up, with a second kit. to shift down too. If that could be signaled by the controller it would be an automatic again.

I am in the clean up phase while awaiting some last minute parts to be delivered. During assembly, I will picture every piece going back in to show how easy it really is.

A really big help is this nice parts diagram: http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/mm5/graphics/Catalog-pdf/Aluminum-Powerglide.pdf

Too bad I can not find a list of the numbers and part names. (I guess I can do it manually....not)

BUT, When I assemble the transmission I can refer to the part number in the picture as I install them.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

While I am waiting for a few last pieces we can review the main parts groups.

THE FRONT PUMP ASSEMBLY: PN 500 group (in this diagram)-

http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/mm5/graphics/Catalog-pdf/Aluminum-Powerglide.pdf








(clock wise from upper left) Front cover, rear cover with stator tube and the gear set. The stator tube can be removed (if you are not using a torque converter) and the input shaft shortened if you wanted the ultimate in shortness. A custom coupler would shorten the unit by 4" or so, but it would cost several hundred bucks extra. You would need to cut off the bell housing and bolt an adapter to the pump bolts. A LOT of work for 4" shorter in length.


Next: LOW GEAR ASSEMBLY: 555-022-905 group-919-916/3








(Upper left to right) Low gear servo/pushrod/return spring, small link, Low gear band around the drum that holds the high gear clutches inside, Big link, Band adjuster rod. This runs on the rear of the pump (in the middle of the transmission).

And: The HIGH GEAR ASSEMBLY:555-565 group-575-106-126-614








(top-clockwise) The High gear hub with one clutch plate on it, the Low gear drum which holds the high gear clutches inside with one steel plate on it, The high gear apply piston and the high gear clutch cover with the forward sun gear attached.

Then the REVERSE CLUTCHES: 566 group-130-114-594








(Top/left clockwise) The reverse piston, Planetary ring gear with outer splines for the reverse clutches, a reverse clutch plate, a reverse steel plate and a High gear clutch plate for reference. The reverse piston goes into the case first, then the ring gear, then the clutches (which ride in the ring splines) and the steel plates (which ride in the transmission case). This is what locks up for reverse or when using a trans brake launch (which we don't). 

The PLANETARY UNIT: It rides inside of the planetary ring. 584








Looking inside from the open end (pump and low/high gears removed). Note the lever in the 7:00 o'clock position. That is the Parking pawl. It physically locks the planetaries (and output shaft) to the case. It is not really that strong......They do break. (long story)

On the outer right side:








Those are the supply and return lines that feed the cooler circuit. They can be eliminated because we have no torque converter, but it is less work to leave and just "loop" it.

Just below the cooler fittings is the LOW GEAR SERVO bore: for the 905 group








It needs to be completely smooth and no scars or scratches at all. The GM servo used one steel band which had an end gap. Our racing servo has two Teflon bands with overlapping ends for no-gaps. They seal much better.

Enough for today, I'm all cleaned up, bagged and awaiting parts.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I took a vacation day for friday. 

I plan to go over the oil passages needing drilled larger, the new pick up tube location and other small "get ready" stuff.

I have other small mods to do to the car before the trans is put back in. 


All of my parts should be here by Saturday. YaaHoo!


More tomorrow with pics, Miz


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Real nice job on this Miz. Thank you.

I'm thinking this thread may need to be a sticky or in the Wiki or something....


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

I agree. This is definitely good stuff, Miz, and ought to be a sticky or made into a Wiki entry.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Stickied! 

Maybe move it to the Wiki when it is done?


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm a little concerned with the plumbing style compression fittings you are using for the trans. They don't like vibration, at all. I dread having to work on, or near them at work. As they get older, they become very sensitive. When they start to leak, they dont stop! You may want to use flare or barb adapters.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have exactly the reverse problem. My hose barbs begin to leak after a while. The only compression fitting I use is the cooler bypass tube. The pump suction side hose is just vinyl hose with hose barbs. The vinyl hose seems to get soft when warmed to operating temeratures allowing it to get loose under the clamps. DO NOT USE VINYL HOSE FOR TRANSMISSION FLUID! The pump pressure Side uses a AN-6 jic fittings. None of these leak at all. It was the simple national pipe thread that leaked. That has now been corrected.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Gotcha! A little surprised, but what works, works!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The Reassembling Begins:

The first step in reassembly is, of coarse, to really clean it well.

Then a thorough inspection for cracks, threads and other things that need repairing. That includes modifications. Like the addition of a pick up tube for the external pump. Most will simply use the pan drain hole. It is on the front side and not bottom. It is out of the way and well protected. Just tap it out to 1/4" NPT threads. I needed a different place due to my new aluminum pan. 








The new pick up tube can be seen here on the left side. the middle fitting in the picture is the transmission dip stick lower fitting. It too is tapped out but to 1/2"NPT and a heater hose fitting used in the case. The cooler loop by-pass shunt can be also seen on the right, above the low gear servo (piston) bore.


The next item to replace is the outputshaft bushing in the bottom of the case. It must be replaced from inside. Use a small chizel to remove the old bushing and a suitable driver to tap the new one in. I used a long 1/2" extension and a 1-1/2" socket put on the extension backwards for a flat driving surface. 








Then utilize a brake cylinder hone to fit the bore to the output shaft. Proceed in little steps, several fittings will prove necessary.

The reverse clutch pack clearance needs to be set next.
Remove the old seals from the Reverse (large) piston.







Clean it and place it in the bottom of the bore where it goes, spring pockets up. 

Next you will need to decide how many reverse clutches you are putting back in. The more you install, the more forward direction drag they will cause. They turn backwards in low and high gears. A 4 cylinder car used 3 clutches. A high weight-V8 car used up to 6 clutches.

I decided to use 3. So, I installed 2 steel plates, a clutch, a steel, ETC. until you get to three clutches, then a steel, then the top-thick pressure plate ring.








Add extra steels as necessary to take up the extra space.

Hold the pressure plate down with your fingers, the snap ring does not need to be installed at this time.








Using that little window, (put there for that purpose), measure the free play clearance with feeler gauges.

How much clearance do we want? .004"-.010" per installed clutch plate.
I want those clutches to turn easy, but I also want them to clamp down hard and not be beyond the short piston travel. So, I choose the middle of the range- .007" per clutch plate or .020" total.

I needed to Remove my reverse piston and turn it thinner on a lathe to get the correct stack clearance. Select shims are sold to do this, I own a lathe. OR you can simply remove the inner teeth from an old clutch plate to create a .098" shim. Steels are .071" By mix-n-matching these you can get almost anything.









Well, so much for now. This week I will spend cleaning and modding the front pump. Next week end we will clean out the case one last time and start installing the parts for real.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Please be patient with me on this transmission build. It is taking so very much longer because of the constant need to stop, take pics, upload, and document the steps. I am used to just blowing through these things and moving on. It is also taxing my will to not skip over things. There are SO many things I catch myself doing automatically and not talking about. 

Example: Before putting the reverse piston in the bore, As part of the prep, I lightly run my finger with emery paper around the top stepped portion to eliminate any sharp or even square edges that will cut the new seal ring.

That is a standard "mechanic" thing you pick up over the years and just do and not think about it. 

Like when sticking a shaft into a seal, and the shaft has splines, threads or grooves that will scratch the seal, I always wrap those spots with black electrical tape and oil it. After the shaft is past the machined spot, I pull the tape out. Protecting the seal is the whole point.

BTW: Seal 101: Every seal installed in everything needs to be lubricated. They will get extreme wear on start up until they get the natural splash oil on them. Dry seal = short life.

During this build, I will probably go back over the whole thread and add pics, text, or delete and append things. The point is to present the most accurate information.

TODAY: I took some stuff to work and snuck in some home work. 

You can buy expensive assembly lube or you can use my old stand-by.









The forward sun gear is pressed into the planetary top cover. It is good for 400-500 HP. But they do loosen up under on-off-on-off-0n throttle oval racing. We tack weld the sun gear to the plate. The weld can not be above the plate surface. (An easy, cheap mod). 









Another good upgrade is a deeper pan. It also stiffens the pan rail of the case. BUT, we are not using 800HP and a trans brake.








The new pan (on left) will boost the system by 2 Qts. to 3.5 Qts. total.


My transmission was a purpose built racing unit. It lacks several things a standard powerglide has. Example Mine is missing the converter drain back check valve, the converter air bleed check, The cooler circuit check valve, The vacuum modulator and rod. The governor is also missing as part of the full manual conversion. 

You can conceivably just buy a good operating powerglide from a local car, Replace the front and rear seals, buy a direct drive coupler, drill the front pump and tap out the pan plug for the external pump hoses and run it just like that.

It is simpler to run it manual shift. But it can be made to shift using some tricks. 
The shift up and down points are set by a RPM/oil pressure relationship. 
Front pump pressure (throttle pressure) modified by the governor (RPM)and modulator rod length (senses motor load).

You can get a governor upshift. Called a full power upshift. By just hauling ass and exceeding the governor calibration. You can play with the governor spring to alter this.

You can get a modulator upshift. Called a part throttle shift. When a lower RPM is reached and the sensed engine vacuum (engine load) gets weak. (The modulator rod gets shorter). It is possible to eliminate the modulator and replace it with an adjustable rod. It can adjust this shift point too.

Miz


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

few2many said:


> I'm a little concerned with the plumbing style compression fittings you are using for the trans. They don't like vibration, at all. I dread having to work on, or near them at work. As they get older, they become very sensitive. When they start to leak, they dont stop! You may want to use flare or barb adapters.


 I just got a flier about adapter fittings that replace the standard style fittings with the flared type. Call A&reds transmission parts 1-800-835-1007.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The Powerglide has 1/8"NPT cooler circuit ports. There is an infinite variety of fittings that will fit . I personally do not have a problem with any of them leaking if installed correctly.

The factory fittings are of the "Flared" type. They allow 3/8" steel tubing to run up and back to the front mounted cooler. Some coolers are in the radiator, some are not.

The most common cooler used in oval track racing is simply a air/oil type with rubber hose. The transmission port fittings are of the hose "barb" type and use a common hose clamp.

I am using the "ferreled" type of fitting. While it is mostly used in home plumbing, Mine have a small DOT logo on them. This indicates they are certified for vehicle use. *They are air brake fittings. * 

When more cooling capacity is needed for trailer towing, an inline cooler is added to the in-radiator type by simply cutting the tubing and slipping a hose over it. 

All of these systems work because there is very little pressure in the cooler system. 

I have removed the converter air bleed valve and the cooling circuit check valve from the front pump. These are not necessary when not using a torque converter. It allows you to plug the two cooler ports. I prefer to "loop" them as they are part of the factory lube system. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Well, some progress and some bad news:

Assembly starts with fitting the reverse clutches to get the correct pack disengaged clearance. This is so they both have the least amount of drag released and the most clamping force then engaged. (Also life span when wearing down.)

We want .004"-.010" per installed clutch plate, (not steels). I like to shoot for the middle of the field, .007" times the number of plates-3 = .021" or .020" to make it simple.








Carefully shim or shave off the piston to get .020".








Clean thoroughly and recheck. Perfect! Install the two seals, lube with assembly grease.

When installing the piston, Use a tool or even a .010" feeler gauge to go around it to ensure the "U" seal is not folded and installs correctly.
Put the release springs in place, use grease to keep springs from falling out.








NOTE: that is not rust, it is orange paint. Some springs have been replaced in a past rework. Also, that is a new drum to pump bushing. It is a Teflon lined model. It and the two seal rings on the input shaft are what hold the high gear clutches applied. It is a "Must replace" item with every tear down. 

Then cover the springs with the washer and compress with your tool about 1/2".








Install the center snap ring and remove the presser tool.

At this point, we stop and perform an "air pressure" check to see if we installed the seals correctly with no damage. Wjth a 1964 or newer case, we must make a block off plate and test here: Just below the place we checked the pack clearance.









But for the earlier-rear pump- cases , we just blow air into this port at 11:00 O'clock. At the rear of the pump support area.








Naturally if the piston operates with no leaking sound, It passed.

Soak the new clutches for 1/2 Hr. in ATF before installing.








Install alternating plates and steels. Install big snap ring.

Clean, lube and install the outer reverse ring gear into the clutch plates. It keys the clutches to the planetaries.

Carefully lube the output shaft and lower thrust bearing. Drop the
planetary/output shaft unit into place gently.








We have already replaced that bronze thrust bushing in the picture-center.

Next we perform the same fitting procedure to the high gear clutch unit.

During the fitting, I discovered the high gear piston was damaged. I need to order a new one. The work is over for this weekend. Bag and tie the work tightly to keep out dust.

(Ivan is really going to enjoy this, it delays assembly yet another week.)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Today, I cleaned up and assembled my front pump. I checked the mating surfaces for flat and burrs by gently running a fine flat file over them. 

I checked my pump gears for wear. 








NOTE: the two important places, Ring gear to housing and gear to crescent divider.

Install the new converter (drive adapter) bushing and front seal, Now while it is easy.

Clean one last time, lube the gears with assembly lube and torque the 5 cover bolts, not forgetting new sealing washers.

At this time do NOT install the the quad o-ring seal on the pump flange or hook rings on the converter to high drum interface. I will need to assemble and check the Transmission end play several times to shim it correctly.









Lower access hole in stand for prying the shaft up and down.









After the end play is set, then OK to install the o-ring and 2 sealing rings.








Note my expensive pump alignment tool. This is VERY necessary if you want it to fit back into the case easily.
The pump bolts torque to 20 Ft/Lbs. and red locktite.

Then bag the pump for later installation. (I need a new high pack piston, remember?)

EDIT: New piston on order. Build can resume this weekend. Hopefully finish build and be installing back in the car. I will include a lengthy section at end of build for those just buying a good used trans and wanting to mod and install it. 

Pics later.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have had a nice dialog with Hughs Racing Transmissions. 

My question was about a torque converter for EV use.

My specs were 300-500 stall-8" diameter- for a powerglide, to be used with a flexplate and no ring gear.

I ran them through the 50 RPM idle to keep up pressures and the special needs of the electric motor.

Their reply:

We believe we can offer you a torque converter that will achieve your desired stall speed range. This converter would be custom built specifically for your combination, and would be available under part number *PGXFM*. This will be a 12" torque converter. We need to use the larger diameter core in order to get the stall speed low enough to meet your needs. We can have this converter built and ready to pick up within 1 - 2 business days of receiving your order.

Cost on this converter is $239.00 + tax.(I live in their Metro area.)

As comparison, the direct drive adapter in my build cost $185.00. plus needed some mods to the front pump to make it work.

This is a powerglide unit only. I am sure other applications can be done too, maybe not all due to a strange core maybe.

So, there you have it. They can be built. The 12" converter would be much lighter to turn than a manual clutch/flywheel, too.

Contact info: Pete Nichols [email protected]
Sales Manager / Tech Support
Hughes Performance
602-889-3621
800-274-7223, ext. 209
www.hughesperformance.com


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> I have had a nice dialog with Hughs Racing Transmissions.
> 
> My question was about a torque converter for EV use.
> 
> ...


Very kewl. I have an aquaintance who is doing a build with a glide and I will pass this on. 
I assume. U meant 500rpm idle, not 50. ??? And a 300 -500 stall speed is ok if u want to idle at 500rpm??
The price is very good and the turn around. What area is this in?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually I think he did mean 50rpm idle, just enough to keep the fluid pressurized is probably all you need, any more would be a waste.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Miz is this a lockup converter, and if not, why not?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

There is no hydraulic circuitry in a powerglide to support the lock-up process.

It would need a hollow input shaft and somewhere to put the oil into it. Both a problem. Then convert a lock up converter to a "Glide. Probably not do-able or cost too much. 

Yes, 50RPM idle. Fast enough for accessories to work, apply pressures to be up and use minimum current draw to the pack. You can use an alternator instead of an expensive Dc/DC converter, a standard power steering pump and a belt drive vacuum pump for brake booster.

Some transmissions have a lock-up feature native. They need investigated for this super low stall speed, but they can't lock unless they are in 3rd gear. The lock feature is to stop the turbine from turning backwards while in O.D. (4th gear).

Somebody get one of these things and let us all know how it drives.....

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

So I couldn't lock up a converter in 1st or 2nd gear to avoid slippage and efficiency loss? With the TH125 transaxle I'd be using mostly those gears.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

sry, I'm not experienced with this. I am sure you could lock one up, I'm just not sure of what the stresses would be on the converter, or if the lock up clutch is that strong.

Uncharted territory.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

So, what a trying day. I went to check my transmission end play and found it had none. It actually was in compression. It was the "new" pump that did it.

Understand, the original powerglide was rebuilt/converted by T.C.I. Transmissions to an "Circleglide".

That meant it had 1/2 of the reverse clutches removed, the governor removed, the rear pump removed, 2 more clutches added to the high gear pack, a Kevlar band installed, the converter fill and purge valves removed and a full manual valve body installed. Various oil holes were drilled out, the passing gear lever was converted to a clutch release for dirt track take offs.

There was almost NOTHING original left and everything is hand fit.

It had 4 racing seasons on it. About 100 races with 40 laps per race plus practice nights. Someone had tore it down and tried to refreshen it and did a miserable job. It had no end-play and ate up the main thrust washer.








On tear down, I found it to have .007" end play. It needed .028"-.57" (the reason the thrust was eaten up.

The "Wedding Band" (drum bushing) was missing completely.

Many times you get into these things and it lets you know if you are a mechanic or a parts changer.

To only install 3 clutches in reverse, I had to lathe turn the reverse piston for the correct clearance.








(I just could have installed all 6 like normal with no machine work, But I wanted just 3 for reduced friction.)

I installed thicker racing clutches in the high drum. The full race thin ones have a short life span. The thicker ones needed the high piston turned, also.

Interrupted, finish later.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A cliffhanger in a Powerglide rebuild thread?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I'm back: Did you miss me?

OK, Turning the high gear piston and installing the thicker clutches allowed the inner hub to move forward on the input shaft a little. It now hits the rear snout of the pump....I bored the recess deeper to let the hub go forwards and clear the pump.

So, all of this did nothing but make my lack of end play worse. 
I chucked the rear cover of the front pump in the trusty lathe and faced off the .090" that I needed.

Last assemble of the day, I have .031" free play. Perfect.

Bag it and begin again tomorrow.

I will then place the low band, piston and adjuster screw in place, put the pump halves together, and finish assembling the internals.

All that's left is the valve body , filter and new pan. Remove the transmission from the stand and get it onto the bench. to Adjust the band, attach the rear support plate, speed-o gears and finally the tail extension housing.

I promise pics and a recap of a normal overhaul you can do at home.

Miz


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

mizlplix said:


> There is no hydraulic circuitry in a powerglide to support the lock-up process.
> 
> }{
> Some transmissions have a lock-up feature native. They need investigated for this super low stall speed, but they can't lock unless they are in 3rd gear. The lock feature is to stop the turbine from turning backwards while in O.D. (4th gear).
> ...


A4ld ford qualify? or possibly AOD?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Even the non-computer transmissions lock up the converter by pressure up the hollow input shaft. There should be a way to so manually at any time. My big question is how strong is the converter clutch? Research is needed.


OK, Today was productive. I was able to assemble the high clutch pack.








Here I am gently rolling the lip of the seal into the bore. Don't just push....You will be sorry... Also put a dab of assembly lube on each spring base to keep it secure. That center bushing is the all important one as it holds the rotating drum centered while in low gear. If the bushing looks a little ragged and rough, it is TEFLON coated.

The center hub goes first, 








Top is the lower thrust cap, right is the center hub, left is the snap ring and center is the spring cap for the return springs.









Once again we compress the stack of springs and insert the cap and snap ring.









Always soak the new clutches for 1/2 Hour before assembling them into place. You then just dip the steel plates.

Add a steel, a friction-then alternate till full. 

Then a thrust cap, top plate (with the sun gear) and finally the big snap ring to hold it all together.








Here I tack welded the sun gear to the flange plate. This is not necessary until 500HP and above, but I own a welder, so why not?









The high gear clutch pack/low drum assembly placed into the transmission.

The low band is next. We soaked it? Yes we did.....It sets around the high drum we just placed. The two lugs go toward the adjuster bolt side and the single lug towards the servo (Piston) side. Lube and screw in the adjuster bolt, holding the wedge link in place with your fingers. Next, Lube the servo and insert it into the big hole in the right side for it. Spring first?....Then piston, holding the little "Zee" link in place with your fingers.

All of the above is in a very small space so pictures had to wait until done.








Left of center is the "ZEE" link (edge on), Right is the "Wedge" link (edge on)

Next we can place our front pump. (We have already set the end play). We're good-to-go.

Get 2- 5/16" X 4" bolts and cut off the heads to make two guide rods. Screw them into two opposing pump to case holes. These hold the gasket in place and make setting the pump easier. Lube the hook rings where they go into the high drum center and lower the pump into place. Insert the input shaft. insert the drive adapter tube also to help keep everything aligned. Red locktite and torque the bolts to 25 Ft./Lbs. Remove the two guide studs and torque those bolts too.









It should look like this (hopefully...LOL)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Remove the transmission from the stand and place it on the table, upright like it is in the car.

At this point we can adjust the low band. While turning the input shaft by hand, slowly tighten the adjuster bolt. At the point where it starts getting hard to turn, stop.

Set your torque wrench to 70"/Lbs. and tighten the bolt until you get that "Click" from your torque wrench. Again, carefully back it off exactly 4 full turns. Hold the bolt and tighten the lock nut. DONE









Always have something clean to wipe your hands on, cleanliness is essential.

Clean the rear bearing support plate and get out the gasket. 








I did not replace the bushing as it was like new. Lube and slide it up the output shaft. I had to Heli-coil 2 of the holes in my case....GRRRRR! But it was necessary, so...








Align the plate and gasket carefully. It can go on 4 different ways, only one will shift into reverse....You can at least fix this in the car if you goof up.

Insert the plastic speed-o gear and secure it with the little spring clip. (You DID save that itty-bitty clip? Didn't you?) No problems, If you ever need one, Email me, I'll send u one free. They come 100 to a box from GM....(Please don't ask how I know.)

The rear quad ring goes over the rear bearing support plate. Slide the tailshaft housing on and secure it with the 5 bolts. I didn't replace the bushing or the seal as I already had done it previously.

Roll the transmission over on it's back like a really big turtle. Block it there.

I had no reason to disassemble my Full Manual TCI valve body as it worked fine and everything except 1 spring and valve has been removed from it and another shift plate installed. I had it in a plastic bag all this time, so it is clean. 

The ends that set on the transmission body have one piece gaskets. The ends are no good, So I just cut them off and cut the ends off of a new whole gasket. Use assembly lube to hold them in place. Find and clean the small body to servo steel tube. Find the valve body bolts, clean them and add a drop of red locker on them.

Carefully place the valve body on the trans case, while inserting the low servo tube








AND placing the rocker arm on the "rooster coomb" correctly. Start the bolts. Verify everything is OK. Torque the bolts to 70"/Lbs.









Place the rocker arm return spring and clip on the short bolt you took it off of. (Left)









Place the shifter guide plate in place and tighten the two bolts. DONE









I am replacing my pan (1-1/2" deep)with a 3" deep one. 








It required a 1" spacer and longer bolts to lower the oil pick-up screen.









More tomorrow. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I cut and installed my new pick up tube for the aux. pump. I always cut the tube at a 45 Degree angle so it will not suck to the pan floor and block the tube. 

I believe in a gasket sealer on the pan gasket, even though the instructions say not necessary...I brake clean the pan and pan rail, spray with clear laquer or enamel on pan , case rail and both sides of gasket. Allow to tack 10 minutes and assemble.

It will require a chisel and hammer to remove, but it will never leak...









Those wires are holding the lever for the internal hydraulic clutch. I had it hooked up at first, but it is not necessary and I can use the flooring area when the clutch pedal is removed.

The motor adapter plate is on. The trans is on the floor by the car, ready to install the AC50 and put it into the car.

Tomorrow!

Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It is a great thread but this has to be the best part!



mizlplix said:


> Always have something clean to wipe your hands on, cleanliness is essential.
> 
> Miz


Lovely looking 'oily rag' you have there Miz.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Those wires are holding the lever for the internal hydraulic clutch. I had it hooked up at first, but it is not necessary and I can use the flooring area when the clutch pedal is removed.


I'm confused, the Powerglide has a clutch that can be operated with a clutch pedal?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Originally, a Powerglide was a mass produced, common 2 speed automatic transmission with a torque converter.

Then some one like us got a hold't of it and things started to get weird.

A *higher stall converter* & *shift firmness kit*.

*More clutches* for more horsepower.

*Lighter rotating parts* for less friction.

*Shorten*ing for compactness(never did figure that one out, the cars are still long)

*Cut off the bellhousing* so it can go on other motors.

Attach a* scattershield* because it comes apart sometimes.

Add a full *manual valve body* so we can shift it ourselves.

*Remove the torque converter* to lighten the rotating mass and reduce the slippage.

After that last modification, there was no way to move the car gently. We either put the car in low with the motor running or we started the car in low.

Both were extremely abrupt.

So we then drilled the front pump in two places allow the oil to recirculate thru a ball valve while in gear, to kill the oil pressure and have a neutral. Then we just slowly closed the valve to build pressure again and drive away (we made the low band into a clutch.)

There is a so-called "*Push start" modification*. It allows you to use a manual lever to hold the low piston/band in gear to do a push start. That can be used to take off in low gear with an E motor. Just hand or foot hold apply pressure to the linkage pressing the low piston (servo). Apply the throttle and when the car starts rolling you can let go as the front pump is holding the servo at that point. It stays in until you drop to a complete vehicle stop and pressure goes to zero. No external pump necessary but a little extra trouble to use that way.

OK, IF we use a spring to apply the piston, and a small hydraulic cylinder to pull it back after the pressure starts, it should drive like a normal car. BUT that leaves a problem with reverse to solve.....

Then someone figured out that we did not need a passing gear any more and they used the passing detent linkage to dump the main galley pressure straight to the pan to get the same effect with no external plumbing....Neat!

THAT is what I have blocked from working with the wire. I already had a clutch pedal, so I just hooked it up to the detent lever and had an operational clutch. It was for a "runaway" motor situation. (Whch is silly with an AC50 as they usually fail in an open circuit.)

I needed the left foot room worse. 

Now, there is a different kind of manual shifted, converterless valve body. It has* RPM controlled low gear engagement*. You are supposed to be able to even drive the car onto the trailer with it.

I don't have one, never used one, But it seems to be the answer to our prayers for an EV.

Maybe I need to assemble one to try in my car sometime.

Miz









Jack's expression speaks to his opinion of my idea.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> Now, there is a different kind of manual shifted, converterless valve body. It has* RPM controlled low gear engagement*. You are supposed to be able to even drive the car onto the trailer with it.
> 
> I don't have one, never used one, But it seems to be the answer to our prayers for an EV.


So this would allow pressure to build and soften low gear engagement from a stop, and eliminate the need for an external pump? I guess reverse would still be a bit harsh?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have never used one. It might work for forward and reverse.

Their info. sez: " The 890-744500 reverse pattern, full-manual valve body controls line pressure internally and automatically. Put the car in gear and go! The reverse shift pattern allows up shifts without the worry of hitting neutral or reverse. It'll even operate smooth enough to allow you to drive on and off your trailer."

http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/744500/10002/-1

$237.99 

That's quite an expensive experiment.

Mine is this one: TCI 744300

http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/744300/10002/-1?parentProductId=748512

It requires a clutch pedal hooked to the former passing gear lever.

It IS still abrupt in engagement. But they do not claim to drive it up on the trailer...LOL I always used a winch.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

YaHoo! The entire mess is back together! I need to fill the transmission and make the two hoses for the charge pump.

Tomorrow will see me get 5 Qts. of type "F" fluid and two hose fittings. About a couple of hours and I'm on the road again.

(Yes, I have tomorrow off. My last vacation day. Wednesday is my last work day before retirement, and about time too.)


Miz


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> (Yes, I have tomorrow off. My last vacation day. Wednesday is my last work day before retirement, and about time too.)
> 
> 
> Miz


Congratulations on your retirement, Miz, I am sure you will not be getting bored with all that extra time on your hands!


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, Wood:

I've been a lot of things in my lifetime, Ironworker/Rigger, Crane operator, bus mechanic, truck mechanic, aircraft mechanic, racecar constructor/mechanic/crewchief, college professor and high performance driving instructor. 

Life seems to have been a prelude to building EV's as it requires all of my previous experiences combined. I can think of no better way to spend my remaining years.


OK, The car is up and running again. It drives fine, but the charge pump does not shut off like I thought it should. I need to do a few pressure checks. Other than that, this phase is pretty much done.









The new pressure hose from the aux. external pump to the pump high side tap.









The new shifter. A $58.00, circle track model. It just needs a "Hurst" stick (on order).









The new "uncluttered" look, without The big 18" radiator fan, a pump and hoses to the transmission.









Unless I decide to try that other valve body that is supposed to be very controllable and requires no extra external pump for band engagement. I am content.
(I think that is going to bother me unless I try it....)

Miz


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> OK, The car is up and running again. It drives fine, but the charge pump does not shut off like I thought it should. I need to do a few pressure checks. Other than that, this phase is pretty much done.
> 
> Unless I decide to try that other valve body that is supposed to be very controllable and requires no extra external pump for band engagement.
> (I think that is going to bother me unless I try it....)
> ...



Well Miz, you have provided me and a lot of other EV enthusiasts on this forum with an extraordinary amount of PowerGlide information. I know it took a lot of time to document and photograph your efforts......for us.

I bet there is a dozen of us or more waiting in the wings to forge ahead with integrating a PG into our builds.

So, (hope I'm not going against any forum rules) I'd like to donate $20 to you, towards the other valve body purchase. That won't kill me and if anybody else can spare a double-saw-buck, maybe you will do it sooner rather than later. Paypal is a click away, my friend.

Your efforts and support here is much appreciated. PM coming your way.

Eric (1995 BMW E36)


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*A normal, backyard EV Powerglide Transmission*

In all honesty, most of the previous work was necessary because of the "used" nature and type of transmission I had. You on the other hand, will most probably not need to do something so drastic.

The following information will work on all automatic transmissions. While they might have more weight and friction than my powerglide, they are just as useful as they serve different purposes.

1. *Torque converter or direct drive*: Decision #1

A* lower stall converter* can be specially made to suit the EV motor. It can be as low as $240.00. 

A *direct drive adapter* for a powerglide costs about $180.00 while a custom drive adapter can cost up to $350.

A *converter type transmission* is friendlier to operate and allows the motor to be "idled" and accessories to be powered. A *direct drive transmission* has lower rotating weight, more efficient with current, but requires a different driving style and an external pump.



2.* Automatic or manual shift*: Decision #2 

There are two types of domestic auto transmissions, electronic and non-electronic. 

The *electronic types* are computer controlled. If you retain the factory ECU, they need to have several inputs spoofed to make them still work. If you discard the factory ECU, you will need an aftermarket transmission programmer like the "Opti-Shift" to make them work($600). 

The *Non/Electronic type *are further divided into two more groups, Vacuum and cable signaled. 

The *vacuum type* is difficult to make work because of no vacuum signal to make the shift happen. The hydraulic valving and governors can be altered to change the shift points.

The *cable signaled* transmissions are a little easier to adapt, but require a custom synchroniser type throttle linkage to be made.

An *automatic shifted* transmission would be friendlier for mulitple persons to use.

A *manually shifted* transmission would allow the perfect matching of an electric motor to your driving needs.


The *Non/Electronic transmission* (cable or vacuum) can just have a manual valve body installed-$250-$450. Where as the electronic style transmission is harder to work with and requires a programmer to alter the shift points.


3. *How many gears* do I need?

The answer is the same with automatics as manual transmissions. The vehicle weight, the motor type and HP, the top speed needed, the final drive gearing, the tire diameter, type of traffic and the terrain will dictate transmission gearing.


In my case:
2,200# car
AC50 (decent RPM range)
6.14 gears
32" tire
90 MPH
Rural/urban/city driving
No hills-flatland USA

Answer(for me): 2 gears, low-up to 50MPH and high-up to 80 MPH.

The heavier vehicle= more gears,
The lower motor RPM= more gears.
More hills= more gears.


*Determine your speed you will drive in mostly and gear for that.* The rest will adjust around that just fine.

The tire size/type is usually a cosmetic thing, but I like a tall, narrow, rock hard tire for EV use when possible.

Seriously consider the transmission that is already in the car. You already own that. Almost any one can be "band-aided" to work.

OK, *An example:* A friend has an S10 being converted. He has an 4L60 automatic. He has an Opti-Shift, he made a direct drive adapter. The rear axle ratio is 3:55. He lives in relatively flat terrain with a couple of long gradual hills to pull, sometimes. In reality he will use three gears. Over drive will not be useful.

In theory: If we changed out his rear axle ratio, it would allow that overdrive to be useful. A 4.88 ratio (in over drive) will keep his motor RPMs the same (as 3rd and the 3.55 gears) and give him one lower "take-off gear. 

It will cost him about $250 more to have a 4th gear to use.

Next: a typical, average automatic transmission conversion without all my drama.

Miz


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Miz,

Good looking build. Have you considered a battery box disguised as an old flathead V8?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*A typical (no-drama) EV build.*

Salty: My wife suggested a large round cage with a stuffed squirrel in it...

If you do decide to go Powerglide there several things to consider.

NO CAST IRON POWERGLIDES! Aluminum only.


1-If you own it already-use it.

But if you are looking- try to get a unit out of a running car or rebuilt within 5 years or so.

Then think price-Here in the Phoenix Metro area, I see them routinely for $150-$450.

If given the choice, I would use a 4cylinder, 6 cylinder 0r a 327 model. They all have the 1.82 low gear. If you pull the converter and then the input shaft (easily by hand), the 1.76 low models have a 12-7/8" long input shaft and the 1.82 models are 12-5/8" long. 

If not using a torque converter, get an "air cooled" model. They have large holes in the bellhousing. Rectangle holes are from early cars and round holes are from later cars. They do not have the external cooler loop ports to plug.
AND beat the owners up on the price because drag guys dont really like these.....We do. 

There is no real advantage to having a rear pump model as the front pump keeps full pressure down to 50 RPMs or so where the regen is already into the dead band. Rear pumps are for a push start application. Even GM did away with them early.

If you have a known good transmission, you can just install a manual valve body and a low stall converter and use it.

If you want an automatic up/down shift, it will require a deal of tinkering with the modulator and governor. (No, I have no experience except to disable the governor to keep it in low gear for racing.) It uses a combination of vacuum signal to set the throttle pressure and the governor to sense the RPM to shift.

More later...LOL

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Building a direct drive/manual shift PG from a Good transmission.*

The first thing you need to do is remove the pan and remove the filter. Inspect the inside of the pan. Is it clean?

Remove the valve body, small detent spring on the rocker arm and the short, bent tube from the V/B to the low servo.

Turn the transmission "turtle" (over).

You can then pull out the input shaft, by hand.

Remove the pump to case bolts.

From the valve body side of the bell housing, use an old extension and small hammer to knock loose the pump and remove it. 

NOTE: catch the thrust washer(s) on the back of the snout. You will be re-installing them, as-is.

If this transmission was "Good" then that is as far as you need to go into the internals. If not then you will need a stand and more stuff.

But for now, you can remove the pump case half bolts. Separate the halves. and mark the gears to get them back in right. Remove the gears.

Take the front half and drill and tap the "pilot pressure" hole to 1/4NPT. 









Clean the pump, replace the front seal, gears and put it back together, lubing everything well. Put the direct drive adapter in it and rotate the gears to see if it is smooth. Torque the bolts using RED thread locker. Rotate the gears again.

Replace the thrust washers first. Use vasoline lube to hold them in place.

Replace the sealing rings on the pump rear snout.(easy)

Using a new o ring and paper gasket, replace the pump and torque the bolts.

Replace the sealing rings on the input shaft. (easy)

Replace the input shaft, carefully wiggling it as you push it in. (a familiar procedure).....

Install the drive adapter again and rotate the whole deal for smoothness.

Install the new Manual valve body, rocker arm spring, tube to the low servo and filter.

Tap out the pan drain to 1/4"NPT and replace the pan.

After installation, the external pump inlet connects to the pan. The pressure line connects to the 1/4NPT hole you made in the pump pressure side passage.

This is the whole set up for a manual shift-direct drive PG transmission *if it was a "Known" good one to begin with.*

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Building a direct drive/manual shift PG from a well used transmission.*

The first thing you need to do is remove the pan and remove the filter. Inspect the inside of the pan. Is it clean?

Remove the valve body, small detent spring on the rocker arm and the short, bent tube from the V/B to the low servo.

Turn the transmission "turtle" (over).

You can then pull out the input shaft, by hand.

Remove the pump to case bolts.

From the valve body side of the bell housing, use an old extension and small hammer to knock loose the pump and remove it.

If this transmission was "Good" then that is as far as you need to go into the internals. If not then you will need a stand and more stuff.

But for now, you can remove the pump case half bolts. Separate the halves. and mark the gears to get them back in right. Remove the gears.

Take the front half and drill and tap the "pilot pressure" hole to 1/4NPT. 









Clean the pump, replace the front seal, gears and put it back together, lubing everything well. Put the direct drive adapter in it and rotate the gears to see if it is smooth. Torque the bolts using RED thread locker. Rotate the gears again.

Replace the thrust washers first. Use vasoline lube to hold them in place.

Replace the sealing rings on the pump rear snout.(easy)

Bag the pump for later installation.

*(If reverse was known to be good, it saves you a LOT of work at this point).*

Place the transmission on a vertical holder. 

Remove the LOW band adjuster screw and both flat linkage pieces inside the transmission. Remove the band.

Lift out the high gear drum assembly and sun gear. Do not lose the "wedding band" bushing inside the sun gear.

Remove the snap ring, remove the cover (with the sun gear on it).

Lift out the outer thrust plate, steels,clutches, inner thrust ring, inner-drum. Keep them in order!

soak the new frictions and re-install like you took them apart. EXACTLY. count for count.

Install the cover with the sun gear and then the snap ring.

Here we save TON of work if reverse is OK and we do not have to do any more tear down.

Soak the low band.

Lower the high clutch drum into place. Remember to replace the wedding band bushing.

Replace the low band and adjuster screw with the two links. Finger tighten it only at this time.

Using a new o ring and paper gasket, replace the pump and torque the bolts.

Replace the sealing rings on the input shaft. (easy)

Replace the input shaft, carefully wiggling it as you push it in. 

Install the drive adapter again and rotate the whole deal for smoothness.

Install the new Manual valve body, rocker arm spring, tube to the low servo and filter.

Tap out the pan drain to 1/4"NPT and replace the pan.

Rotate the transmission upright like it is in the car. Adjust the low band, rotating the input drive while doing so.

After transmission installation in the car, the external pump inlet connects to the pan. The pressure line connects to the 1/4NPT hole you made in the pump pressure side passage.



Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Building a direct drive/manual shift PG from a well used transmission (everything)*

The first thing you need to do is remove the pan and remove the filter. Inspect the inside of the pan. Is it clean?

Remove the valve body, small detent spring on the rocker arm and the short, bent tube from the V/B to the low servo.

Turn the transmission "turtle" (over).

You can then pull out the input shaft, by hand.

Remove the pump to case bolts.

From the valve body side of the bell housing, use an old extension and small hammer to knock loose the pump and remove it.

If this transmission was "Good" then that is as far as you need to go into the internals. If not then you will need a stand and more stuff.

But for now, you can remove the pump case half bolts. Separate the halves. and mark the gears to get them back in right. Remove the gears.

Take the front half and drill and tap the "pilot pressure" hole to 1/4NPT. 









Clean the pump, replace the front seal, gears and put it back together, lubing everything well. Put the direct drive adapter in it and rotate the gears to see if it is smooth. Torque the bolts using RED thread locker. Rotate the gears again.

Replace the thrust washers first. Use vasoline lube to hold them in place.

Replace the sealing rings on the pump rear snout.(easy)

Bag the pump for later installation.

Remove the tailshaft housing.

Remove the speed o gear.

Remove the governor from the output shaft. 

Place the transmission on a vertical holder. 

Remove the LOW band adjuster screw and both flat linkage pieces inside the transmission. Remove the band.

Lift out the high gear drum assembly and sun gear. Do not lose the "wedding band" bushing inside the sun gear.

Remove the snap ring, remove the cover (with the sun gear on it).

Lift out the outer thrust plate, steels,clutches, inner thrust ring, inner-drum. Keep them in order!

soak the new frictions and re-install like you took them apart. EXACTLY. count for count.

Install the cover with the sun gear and then the snap ring.

Set the forward drum aside in a bag.

Remove the planetary/output shaft assembly from the transmission, do not lose the roller thrust washer.

Remove the large snap ring.

Remove the reverse frictions and steels, keeping them in order.

Soak the new frictions in ATF and reassemble the new parts for the old parts.

We are assuming the reverse piston still seals......so we do not have to remove it

Insert the output shaft/planetary assembly.

Soak the low band.

Lower the high clutch drum into place. Remember to replace the wedding band bushing.

Replace the low band and adjuster screw with the two links. Finger tighten it only at this time.

Using a new o ring and paper gasket, replace the pump and torque the bolts.

Replace the sealing rings on the input shaft. (easy)

Replace the input shaft, carefully wiggling it as you push it in. 

Install the drive adapter again and rotate the whole deal for smoothness.

Install the new Manual valve body, rocker arm spring, tube to the low servo and filter.

Tap out the pan drain to 1/4"NPT and replace the pan.

Rotate the transmission upright like it is in the car. Adjust the low band, rotating the input drive while doing so.

Reinstall the governor and speed o gear. 

Place the rubber quad ring over the governor support plate and bolt on the extension housing.

After transmission installation in the car, the external pump inlet connects to the pan. The pressure line connects to the 1/4NPT hole you made in the pump pressure side passage.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The preceding three examples were all done assuming that the transmission was originally working and just needed frictions. The seals, pistons and things were working.

The only thing I skipped on the last example was all of the bushings. The difficult ones to install and those piston seals.

Most transmission shops assume the end thrust was good. They insert the same thickness plates, so the pack clearances do not need re set.

The very good race shops do what I did, the whole enchilada......

After all, you are paying for it.

There are hundreds of small details I could bore you with, but this is the main thrust of the subject.

Good luck to all of you who are doing their own work. You are more capable than you know. It is not magic.

I will continue to monitor and answer any questions any may have.

Your friend, Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Amazing writeup Miz. Somewhat related, is there a way to test a transmission out of a vehicle, something auto trans shops can do? Reason, I have a line on a rebuilt TH125, but the guy said he did it when he was in auto tech school with all the proper tools but it's never been in a vehicle or tested. It's cheap enough but I'd hate to go through the work of installing it and find problems.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

J: There are several ways to assess the condition of a transmission. 

Dyno-air pressure checks & visual inspection.

Ask if they did the air pressure checks during the build, or just assembled it.

It is a lock up type transaxle. Without installing in the vehicle, you have no real way to test the lock up circuit.

For EV use and automatic shifting, you will need a synchroniser type throttle linkage. That means you will have to make a bell crank set up where one lever pulls the throttle valve pressure cable and the other runs the POT for your controller and both are operated by the foot pedal. It is not as bad as it sounds. You can just modify a factory linkage to do this for you.

The first thing I would worry about is that the seals used to apply the clutches and bands do not leak. This is the most common fault to a "Tech" built transmission. Everything else is pretty routine and hard to screw up.

Make the deal with them with the understanding that you can return it if it fails an air pressure test. Take it to a friendly shop and they can test it. It is a simple thing for them and peace of mind for you.

If it passes the air check, it would be a 99% possibility it is good.

If they have a dyno, even better...

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You know the old FORUM saying? No pics.......

Sorry for the crappy video, I was busy.

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/...CF-B3C6-100A68171E06-227-000003F04B4CBFE3.mp4




So, like I said, it is almost fast enough for direct drive. If I could go from 6.14 to about 7.0, I would do it. 

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice. My second gear was a 6.834 overall ratio and I used it almost exclusively for all driving from 0-65. It was a little sluggish off the line but quite fine for anything but playing around, and would have been even better with the 650 amp controller. So I can definitely see using a direct drive, though I think you'd miss the option of using first when the mood strikes.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My low gear is 7.96:1
My high gear is 6.14


If I could get about a 7:1 and a larger diameter motor, I would try just direct drive.

Weighing my car is high on my list of things to do this week.

Miz


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## Carl55 (Jun 9, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> My low gear is 7.96:1
> My high gear is 6.14



1.72*6.14=10.5608
1.82*6.14=11.1748

I am not trying to be the math police. I am just interested in the numbers.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Actually I think you are...trying that is.

I think that has been about 8 times this week I have been corrected in the forums.

My usefulness here seems to be done.\\Miz


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## Carl55 (Jun 9, 2012)

No I was not. I have been following closely and I am very interested in the numbers. Both ratios and weight. I am sorry you took it that way. I understand your frustration, but please do not leave us hanging. 

Thanks for all your contributions.


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## matthieu149 (May 9, 2011)

Hi Miz!

My adapter plates and coupler design are ready to be machined!
See page 4 of my build thread.

I would like to have more info about the external pump you use/recommend.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

I need an 12V DC electric pump that is able to deliver at least 50 psi and resist to 100-150 psi. (According to the powerglide transmission handbook, operating pressure with the ICE goes between 50 and 130 psi).
The pump would charge the transmission to about 50psi and stop as it reach the target pressure.

How would the pump start/stop? Is there any with integrated switch or I need an external one?

Are these pump equipped with a check valve? To ensure oil don't go from the powerglide front pump trough the aux. pump.

Finally where do I found such pumps?
There is not much industrial application at 12V DC!

Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think this is the pump he used http://www.steam-brite.com/shurflo-8030813239-150psi-12volt-viton-seals-p-5112.html


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> So, like I said, it is almost fast enough for direct drive. If I could go from 6.14 to about 7.0, I would do it.
> 
> Miz


Miz

I'm sure that an old time racer like you already know this, but the only axle I know of that can reach the 7.00 to 7.40 ratios is the old Ford 9 inch. Not the most efficient axle, pinions shaft a bit low, but with the aftermarket stuff available one of the strongest.

I've attached a link to Richmond's site and the page for the 9 inch.

http://www.richmondgear.com/07pdfs/RG8.pdf

Another nice thing is that it's an axle that can be built up from all aftermarket parts, just like the glide. No need for any OEM stuff from the junkyards. They can be a bit pricey for the good stuff but "strong like bull" Moser can make just about any length axle shaft to fit any configuration. Aluminium pigs or strong steel ones, whatever you need. 
Four 4 pinion carriers from really strong stuff. Axle spline counts and shaft diameters strong enough to support the world. You should find that your rear brake and wheels should just move over without too much hassle.

All that aside I would still stay with the glide just for the park and easy reverse. With the 7.00 gear just leave it in direct drive for general driving. You would still have low gear for when you need to teach some non-believer a "Lesson".

Like I say I'm sure you already know this, but the info might help someone else.

Jim


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I think this is the pump he used http://www.steam-brite.com/shurflo-8030813239-150psi-12volt-viton-seals-p-5112.html


You may also want to check on the electric hydraulic pump used by Mercruiser to lift the stern drive unit on their '90s era I/O drive. Being a marine unit it came as 12 volt and was designed for hydraulic fluids.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My guess is the flow rate might be too low, and the pressure might be too high.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

JRP3: Yes, that is the pump. It has it's own pre-set, non-adjustable pressure switch. Although I have found the Santoprene diaphragm to be OK with ATF, the two replacement pump heads with Viton or EPDM at $75 ea. are nice to keep in mind. Also you can get switches at 80, 100 & 150PSI for $25 also in case yours is not right for the application.










Jim: Ya, the Ford 9" is like us....the old dependable work horse....LOL Considering the vintage of my ride, If I had the funds, I would install a repro of the old Halibrand V-8 quick change in it. "Old" look with the ability to adjust the ratio easily. 


'Kid: Yes, that pump would work providing the volume was higher than the transmission's internal leak down rate and it has a high pressure switch as well as CHEAP.

Mat: This pump automatically resists backflow internally because of the three inlet and three outlet valves. But, if you have any doubts, a check can be installed.
http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Inline_Check_Valve_p/cpiff.htm?1=1&CartID=0

There are several requirements for what ever pump you decide to use:
1-It must out volume the transmission's internal leak rate.
2-It must have some sort of way to shut it off as the transmission main pump takes over.
3-It must provide sufficient pressure to have the transmission frictions to be engaged to a point where the "thump" of initial engagement does not happen. 

NOTE: At this point, after driving the car some, I suspect the pressure does not have to be as high as the transmission's rated top pressure. It only needs to be high enough to take out all of the built-in clearances and have the frictions partly engaged. (Just a theory)

There is a common fallacy about the term "pressure". A pump does not make pressure, it provides flow volume. Pressure comes from restricting the output flow of the pump.

If you have a pump capable of 150PSI and it has a flow of 2GPM and the transmission has an internal leak rate of 3GPM, you will not see any pressure and the pump will not shut off. (as mine fails to do at a stop.)

This means my 1.5GPM pump is smaller than the transmission leak rate. It does stop after the transmission internal pump picks up the flow and the port pressure reaches/surpasses the 150PSI mark. It restarts about 1-2 seconds after coming to a full stop.

(Sorry to repeat all of this again, I am just trying to get it clear to those trying to understand the operation.)

Mjz


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey Miz, on the Sureflo pumps I'm familliar with, the little hole at the end of the pump head is an allen adjustment, giving a limited range adjustment. Not sure if it applies to your pump.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> NOTE: At this point, after driving the car some, I suspect the pressure does not have to be as high as the transmission's rated top pressure. It only needs to be high enough to take out all of the built-in clearances and have the frictions partly engaged. (Just a theory)
> 
> There is a common fallacy about the term "pressure". A pump does not make pressure, it provides flow volume. Pressure comes from restricting the output flow of the pump.
> 
> ...


Looking at the specs on the pump I linked, they show flow rates for the 80 psi version at 1.2 and the 150 psi version at .83, which makes me think you might be better off with the higher flow rate and lower pressure. Agree?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

few2many said:


> Hey Miz, on the Sureflo pumps I'm familliar with, the little hole at the end of the pump head is an allen adjustment, giving a limited range adjustment. Not sure if it applies to your pump.


Data sheet shows adjustment between 140-160:
http://www.steam-brite.com/equipment/Shurflo 8030-813-239- 150 psi 12 volt water pump.pdf


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## matthieu149 (May 9, 2011)

coulombKid said:


> You may also want to check on the electric hydraulic pump used by Mercruiser to lift the stern drive unit on their '90s era I/O drive. Being a marine unit it came as 12 volt and was designed for hydraulic fluids.


Are you talking about this kind of pump?
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Servmanl/6/6C5R3.PDF

If so, the operating pressure seem to be very high...

Does anybody have an idea of the pump they are using?
http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html

Still waiting for an answer from Dwain at KansasEV.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All I could make out clearly on the EVGlide pump was VAN, so I searched and found Delavan pumps http://www.thefind.com/garden/browse-delavan-diaphragm-pump
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tWp3UNz6IqiI0QHVhIAQ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Might be one of these: http://www.delavanagpumps.com/powerflo/7801.htm


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My version of the powerglide has a TCI full manual valve body. It also has a changed counter balance spring in the throttle valve circuit to set it to 140-160PSI. (forward & reverse) That is why I used a 150PSI electric pump.

Not knowing the leak volume and having only one volume choice with this pump made the choice easy. It either worked or not.

*Later Edit:* This pump needs a *check valve* as mine has started to weep oil. I believe it was caused by the pressure spike during the shift, which a valve would stop.

It works but it could be a few GPM larger. The pump is marked 1.5GPM. 

After some time working with it, I think I could have used a pump 1/2 the pressure rating and a higher volume so it would cycle and shut off while stopped. Then again, maybe it would be irritating...

Most of those "adjusters" like that are to calibrate the switch as they are so cheap that maintaining a precise calibration during manufacturing is difficult, SO a trim adjuster is used to get it on spec.

My main goal was not to search for the absolute perfect pump, rather an affordable one that can last and do the job.

BTW: Most of us that tried to contact Kansas EV were not answered. One guy that was, got a price of $1,800 if memory serves correct. Plus payment in full and a 6-12 week wait.

Miz


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## matthieu149 (May 9, 2011)

I have made some research and came up with a few thigh that might worth to share.

Communication with KansasEV are actually quite easy..



[email protected] said:


> Matthieu
> There are two pumps. The main pump is an internal gear pump driven by the
> main electric drive motor. The coupler not only drives the input shaft,
> but also drives this pump. Since there isn't any torque converter, the
> ...


Transmission:
GM Powerglide operate between 50-130 PSI
It should be able to retain 50 PSI for a moment

External Pump:
Should be a On-demand type pump, that include a switch to automatically start/stop the pump at preset pressure.
Should be compatible with Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF), OEM fluid is DEXTRON.
I found this document (http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/_downloads/ChemGuide_8677-P.pdf) that present compatibility of different fluids with different materials. Santoprene seem to be not very suitable, but Viton is.

The pump KansasEV (http://www.kansasev.com/evglide-powertrain.html) use seem to be this one: http://www.delavanagpumps.com/powerflo/7811.htm

On-demand model and probably 2 GPM one.

I don't see any option for Viton diaphragm. Even though the pump is not used all the time, fluid is always in contact, so it might not be the best setup for durability.

The Shurflow 8000 series pump (http://legacy.shurflo.com/pages/new_industrial/Industrial/agriculture/subcategories/8000_ADP_12DVC.html) , as miz use is also a grest candidate.
The 60 psi All-Viton one seem to be the best.

The remaining concern is the flow, as the All-Viton model is 1.2GPM.
Miz, you talked about viton replacement diaphragm earlier. Could you point out where you found it!

I made some reasearch about the powerglide front pump flow and found in the Powerglide Hanbook that it would flow 5GPM at 2000RPM.

Miz: Have you monitored the pressure of your transmission while running?
Would it be possible that your racing unit, being design to run at higher RPM, Higher low, Higher pressure, do not match with your external pump? I mean that at lower pressure (50PSI) the flow needed to reach the pressure is much lower and might be correct.

I also read about the hydraulic system in the Powerglide Handbook. My understanding is that the pressure regulation valve should retain the pressure (as Kansas EV stated). If I am right, then I am not sure to understand why the external pump flow would be important. It would not only influence the time it take to reach the pressure? And the internal leak would not only influence how long the system will retain the pressure?

Please correct me if I'm wrong!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

matthieu149 said:


> Communication with KansasEV are actually quite easy..


I think you are the only person I've ever heard of getting an actual response.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

There is a replacement pump unit in neoprene: part Number: 94-380-28
And EDPM: part number 94-380-17 (both at $70 ea)

The pressure regulator does not hold pressure, It merely dumps the extra volume so an over pressure condition does not ever happen.

Powerglides have built in leaks: The oil cooler circuit, the input shaft to pump body hook rings and the high gear drum to pump body bronze bushing (which has a .010" clearance) are all designed in leaks. 

Any transmission will not magically hold pressure once the pump stops turning (remember those internal leaks) unless it has a built in accumulator. For reference, the T350 has one. The powerglide does not.

The pump I use has a built in integral pressure switch. One to two seconds after coming to a full stop, I can hear it come back on. It comes back on at 140PSI. 

How low can the pressure fall before the frictions disengage? I guess that is the real question.

Santoprene is a product of Exxon. Their tests needed a temperature of over 250F for changes in it to begin showing. (in ATF)

I have personally used three of these at my work for several years with no problems. (They were still in service on my retirement)

The Kansas EV transmission is a nice unit....for $2,800

Jegs sells a TCI circleglide for $999 Which is what I am running.

You can get a direct drive adapter kit for 175 to use on a stock transmission. Which is cheaper.

I can see no real reason to cut off the tail housing because you will lose your speed o meter drive gears..... But a Kit to do so exists, it is expensive.

You can cut off a bellhousing with a sawsall and disk sander...It will look like you did it on a milling table because it goes down to the original pump mating surface. It is hard to screw up.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> Any transmission will not magically hold pressure once the pump stops turning (remember those internal leaks) unless it has a built in accumulator. For reference, the T350 has one.


Doe that mean a transmission with a built in accumulator might not need an external pump? I guess you'd need to spin the motor in park or neutral after being parked for a long enough time, might be annoying.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

A lot of motor oil accumulators have an electric operated valve. they will store oil while parked. 
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/24-046/24-046----ACCUSUMP-1QT-NO-VALVE/








This is a nice one. the 1 Qt. model. It needs an electric valve installed. 
I installed a 2 Qt extended pan so these would work easily.

OR This smaller one:
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/24-150/24-150----ACCUSUMP-TURBO-AFTER-OILER/








This is smaller but needs an electric valve added too.

And the valve kit:
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/24-270/24-270----ACCUSUMP-ELECTRIC-VALVE-KIT/









THEN, It all depended on your transmission internal leak rate AND how long you set at the stoplight....?


No, the T350 accumulator will slowly drain when off. It has no shut off. It was meant to cushion the shifts only.

Dean


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

On second thought....

I have made "Make-do" accumulators from a small hydraulic cylinder. You need to pressure one half to 1/2 transmission operating pressure. They work fine as long as you remember there is a shaft sticking out of it at some point. Or you could remove the shaft and plug the hole in the piston and end cap.

The valve can be bought cheaper than Cantons too. If you shop around.

I just opted for my $75 electric pump. It seems cheapest and so-far dependable.

Miz


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## matthieu149 (May 9, 2011)

Miz,
Some part of my last message was probably not very clear...
I was asking if you have an idea of the pressure your transmission reach while the external pump only is running.

In a stock Powerglide, stock ICE engine, at idle speed it run at 50PSI.

I want to figure out what flow I need to reach 50 PSI.

My guest is that your pump have not enough flow, only because your switch is set to 140-160 PSI.

With a good rebuilt of my transmission I am confident it would hold 50 PSI for a moment, as KansasEV unit does.

Again my first choice is the 1.2 GPM All-Viton 60PSI Shurflow Pump.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

M: My transmission is freshly overhauled. It is as tight as it is going to get. (It is a lot better than it was). The aux pump didnt even turn off before, it was even dumping most of the main pump flow.

Lets assume the transmission has a leak rate of 2GPM........

If I were to put a 10,000PSI/*1.8GPM* gear pump on it, it would perform exactly the same because it would never get to apply that 10,000PSI. The transmission dumps the flow faster than the pump can make it.

But if I were to use a 3GPM pump, the pump now out volumes the transmission and the pressure would be equal to the transmission primary throttling valve setting (it would be dumping the extra 1GPM).

As a note: All of these diaphragm pumps of that model are capable of the same volume and ultimate pressure. They only vary with the switch setting. A 80 PSI pump can be changed to a 100 PSI model with a simple switch change. (they are sold separately) The switch has nothing to do with the pump volume. It only shuts it off in case it reaches the pump's maximum safe pressure. 

(40 years ago) In Hydraulics 101, They taught us that pressure is a function of the supply being more than the demand, plus the pump being physically capable of it. A 10,000 PSI pump will not produce any pressure if there is nothing to push against. But, cap the flow off and it will explode if there is not some way to relieve the pressure at a preset point below the strength of the pump housing.

I also do not know of any automatic transmission that will hold clutch apply pressure when the main pump is not turning. They ALL leak off, even the newer ones, which are much better than the older ones in technology. (Yes, I know people claim their transmission holds in gear for several minutes....) I am saying that that is not my experience....*Make of that what you will*.

Yes, by direct measurement, I get 75 PSI at the low gear piston port, with the aux pump running. I also get a running average of 150 PSI when driving and the main pump is providing flow. (it fluctuates) Also understand that my transmission has nothing to do with a stock powerglide, pressure wise. It has been radically changed by the manual valve body.

No, I can not even guess as to the pump volume needed to fully apply the low band with an aux pump, (But it is greater than 1.8 GPM and below 5 GPM.) I would not buy a pump lower than 2 GPM. (my opinion)

It is not really necessary to fully apply the band in order to get a smooth start. Taking up the slack works just fine and has eliminated the initial jerk.

At the end of all this, all I can say is that for the money I spent ($75), the combination works and my car drives nicely.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

*Transmission resource page*

The punchline is always the deciding factor in almost everything. I want to share some of the places I have found to be reliable and most times cheaper when buying parts for my projects.

www.speedwaymotors.com (Everything hot rod. They ship usually within the same day and are most times the cheapest by far.) Powerglide dragracing and circle track parts.

www.canev.com/ Adapters, hubs, most everything EV in stock. Nice people too.

http://www.newagemarine.com/ Heavy duty electrical parts. & bilge blowers

WWW.Tciauto.com (They put the "P" in powerglide. Everything in parts/full on transmissions)

www.jegs.com Hotrod parts

http://www.colemanracing.com/ (They will even pull a part off the shelf, custom machine it for you and send it to the race track where you are.)
They even sell one of these:








This lightweight 2 speed transmission has the lightest rotating mass available. Positive lock direct drive high gear eliminates internal rotating gear assembly. It weighs only 37 lbs. and features a 1 5/32"-26 spline input shaft, gundrilled output shaft, 2.2:1 first gear, 1:1 high gear with reverse and comes complete with shifter linkage. (My dream EV transmission)

https://www.moserengineering.com/ (You can't beat their price or fast delivery of custom made axle shafts. Odd ball combos-no sweat)

www.onlinemetals.com (They ship quickly, accurately, their staff are friendly and helpful also)

www.mcmaster.com (They also ship fast and have a wonderful inventory)

http://dunncasters.com/ A great place to find wheels-even to match older ones too.

http://mdmetric.com/nordlock/NL_cat_ENG.pdf Nord lock...Steel/zinc plated, S/S, Inconel & coated inconel.



Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I have been doing research on various Powerglide mods that anyone can do and would be of use in EV applications.

*THIS IS A THEORY AND HAS NOT BEEN TESTED IN A CAR.*

The latest involves removing the tailshaft housing and doing a mod to the governor (remove the speedo cable and "bullet", remove the 5 bolts and rubber o-ring). 

Hold the governors two weights in the outward position and fasten them open by either welding, drilling and screwing or just tying with wire (my favorite).

Then.....the transmission will think it is at a higher RPM and stay in high gear, even when you stop. It will take off in high.

SO, you put it in low gear where it is forced to take off in low. When you get to 40 MPH (or whatever), you bump it to high, and it shifts.

It will have normal easy shifts like a factory powerglide, but have manual control with the shifter and it is a reversible mod too.

MIZ


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Miz, I had a question on fluid capacity and measuring accurately. My TH125 manual says to check fluid level when hot and idling, between 150-200F but since I'm going direct drive without a TC I don't expect to see those temps, does that still apply? Is there an approximate level to use with the car cold and off for the initial fill? I assume I'd over fill above the line a bit at first since the trans is empty.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

JR: I was like you (no converter) So, checking the oil level hot / running is not necessary.

I just filled it to the Full level (which was 1/2" above the pan to case seam), Turned on the pump to prime and fill the whole system, then topped it off...all cold.

Then when it runs, it expands a little, but stays within the normal range.

I wound up with no cooler circuit, just a loop. My temperatures got up to 180F or so during 109 F. ambient Arizona summers as there is very little slipping to create the extra heat.

NOTE: The powerglide NEEDS the cooler circuit oil flow as the return oil cools the planetaries.....Loop it back if a cooler is not used.

I got an aluminum 2 Qt deeper pan at the last.(Ebay cheap). But it was of no special benefit.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

__________________________________________________________
This is an update and not been tested by me

I have been pondering the question of how to take a "Craigslist" transmission and convert it to EV use without a lot of money. It was a challenge but I believe I have the answer. Several of these mods have been done by me at different times and on different transmissions, and one in particular is a new one for me. While I believe this will work, I take no responsibility if you want to try it. 

1. If you find a decent powerglide, or any other automatic transmission these mods should work on all except the later electronic ones. (these instructions are for a powerglide)

2. Locate the pressure port for low gear band apply and install a hydraulic flow control valve there. like this:








Drill and tap a hole in the transmission case or pan (at least 1/4" NPT), run a hose from the valve to the new oil return port. Open the valve fully as a starting position. Drive the car and close the valve a bit at a time until the car takes off like you want it to.(softly as throttle is applied). Like an automatic clutch.....

3. Clean out the pan and install a new filter while you are there.

4. Buy a direct drive coupler and the correct flange from Speedway Motors. Their drive has a removable and adjustable flange while other kits do not. They have flanges for early and late Chevy engines. You need to get the special snap ring with it too. (About $150-$175)

5. Do not put a hose to the modulator, leave it alone and the transmission will run in high pressure mode. 

6. The last mod is a little trickier. The modulator presses or pulls a rod in and out to regulate the shift point RPM. if left alone, your transmission will only shift up at very high RPM's. (I can only guess at 4,500 or so)

Each car built, each driver, every terrain and traffic condition-has their own 
best shift point. You can alter this point by unscrewing the modulator and pulling out the little push rod that sets the pressure and shortening it a little.

It would take several tries to get it close to what you need and you would need to drain and refill the pan each time......

OR remove the modulator completely and make a replacement fitting with a screw adjustor so you can do this easily and quickly.

And like the hydraulic valve setting, once set, you will probably not need to move it again, but you would have that option.


All of these mods should give you a 2 speed transmission that needs no external pump. You should have either an automatic or manual shift. And it would be adjustable for an easy or abrupt take off, an adjustable RPM for the shift point and doable for under $500 if you watch and are careful. All without having to disassemble the transmission if it was decent to start with.

The only down side: You have turned the low gear brake band into a clutch and it will wear faster than normal, but the lighter weight the vehicle, the longer it will last. If it ever gives trouble, you will always have high gear and will not be stranded. I would recommend you install a Kevlar racing band
in the beginning if you can, they are tough as hell....

Miz


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks for the update Miz and the whole thread.
I have a Turbo350 we are putting in a cool drag car for a drag race hi school project with a DC motor ATM.


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I am going to give this a try. My 64 Ranchero runs good but is a little
slow from a stop. It is currently direct drive with 4.62:1 ratio in the rear end.
I just picked up a used Powerglide for $60.00 out of a 69 Chevelle.
I think I will try the flow control mod and rework the modulator for an adjustable shift point. I am pretty sure I have the 1.76 ratio transmission.
I will be tearing into it with the help of this thread and the Powerglide
transmission handbook.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The powerglide will give you a good jump at the light over the soft takeoff a direct drive set up gives.

It will complement your car nicely.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The factory case can take 500HP fine. The weakest link is the input shaft and the bellhousing, both are replaceable.

With an aftermarket case, custom gears and carrier, alloy T400 size input shaft and a shortened output shaft, it can take a 1,000HP nitrous Big Block, and does every weekend across the nation.

In an electric powered car, you would need a Shiva or two to be able to make enough HP to even get concerned.

Miz


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## Rastusmalinus (Sep 26, 2011)

Since reading this thread and other threads about automatics, I'm strongly considering my next big project to be an EV with a powerglide. However, is this something that can be done in any rear wheel drive vehicle assuming the drivetrain tunnel is big enough?
I have an '87 Alfa Romeo Spider that I converted. it's a manual shift, and the shifter is basically coming out of the dash. Will an aftermarket shifter still work? Are aftermarket shift linkages for the powerglide so adjustable that virtually any car- domestic or import- can use it?

Thanks,

Brandon


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I used a circle track shifter. You can put it where you want to.

Came from Speedway Motors, About $50

If you go without the torque converter, you can get a BUNCH of room by cutting off the bellhousing. And if you need to you can install a shorty tailshaft too.

Miz


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm looking for a continuous duty proportional solenoid that I can replace the vacuum modulator canister with. I want to send it 0-10 volts proportional the traction motor current. The Trans-brake solenoids are just too much of an energy pig and they burn out because of it.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The tranz brake type of solenoids are on or off type. They are not proportionate. They are also designed to run inside the transmission and submerged in the oil for cooling. Add to that that they are intermittent duty only (and will have a short life span if powered constantly).

Most solenoids are a two coil type. They have three modes- Off, Pull in and hold in. To pull them in, two coils are used, then they switch to only one coil to hold them in to cut down on heat and current.

You are wanting to be able to adjust the primary throttle pressure using the motor current to signal it. It is a good idea, but I feel it is not easily attainable.

There is a serious power (pulling) difference between 1 and 10 volts. You will have problems at 10 vdc and 1 vdc will be way/way too weak to even be usable.

The only way this will work is to have the motor current sent to an inductive sensor. That signal tells an Arduino which controls a small motor driver board
which in turn controls your solenoid and varies the throttle pressure using the factory installed valve. (substituting electricity for vacuum)

You are also looking at the upshift at one RPM and the downshift at a different RPM. Something to think about.

I guess it can be done, but I am not smart enough to do it.

Miz


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> Miz, I had a question on fluid capacity and measuring accurately. My TH125 manual says to check fluid level when hot and idling, between 150-200F but since I'm going direct drive without a TC I don't expect to see those temps, does that still apply? Is there an approximate level to use with the car cold and off for the initial fill? I assume I'd over fill above the line a bit at first since the trans is empty.


An auto trans is actually not that sensitive regarding the fluid level, but it is just as bad with to much fluid as too little. What happens with too much is that the level reaches the spinning planetaries and gets whipped like whipped cream, resulting in the pump sucking air and when this air reaches the valve body, it start to behave badly in pretty much the same way as if the fluid level was too low and the pump sucking air of that reason.

Do some normal driving to get whatever temperature you get and fill up to normal level. Since you never will reach the temperatures that is normal with the ICE and a converter, this will be as close that you can get. If you checked the level at the same temp with the ICE and a converter, it would be a bit too much when it later get hot, but you probably do not reach those temps, so just fill her full at your "normal" temp.

Initially i would fill normally, then just run it very lightly, maybe with the car jacked up, and check a couple of times again, filling as needed. As long as the pump do not suck air and it behaves normally, it will not be damaged.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I always advocate keeping to the factory oil levels. They are there for several reasons. One of which is the one you point out.

After the oil cooler, the oil returns to be dumped inside the planetaries to cool them. It gets whipped up pretty badly and the upper air space is needed to allow that foam to condense back into oil. (The air to separate from the oil)

Miz


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## EV West (Jan 12, 2012)

We finally got a little walkthrough video of our 'EVGlide'. It shows a little more detail of the pump and female input shaft to minimize the overall length as much as possible to eliminate potential fitment issues in the car. We have finally found a very reliable pump solution (water pumps exceed temperature ratings) and a reliable RPM switch for pump operation. We'd love to share this information with the DIY community and see what kind of killer Powerglide builds you can do. If we can help in any way, give EV West a shout. Thanks!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EV West said:


> We have finally found a very reliable pump solution (water pumps exceed temperature ratings) and a reliable RPM switch for pump operation. We'd love to share this information with the DIY community and see what kind of killer Powerglide builds you can do.


OK, so don't keep us in suspense, share the pump and RPM switch info


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## EV West (Jan 12, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> OK, so don't keep us in suspense, share the pump and RPM switch info


Here's the RPM switch:
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=192

We will have the pump listed soon, but it's a high performance diesel pump, and the key feature is that it has a built in pressure bypass valve in it so once it hit operating pressure it doesn't continue to build pressure and draw more current. 

We are currently setting them at about 80 psi and drawing about 18 amps on 12 volts.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not have it just shut off with a pressure switch? I take it there isn't one built into it. What's the advantage of using an RPM switch instead of a pressure switch? Less short cycling I suppose, my Delevan with a built in 60 psi cutoff cycles a lot when I'm stopped but shuts off as soon as I start moving beyond a crawl.


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## EV West (Jan 12, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Why not have it just shut off with a pressure switch? I take it there isn't one built into it. What's the advantage of using an RPM switch instead of a pressure switch? Less short cycling I suppose, my Delevan with a built in 60 psi cutoff cycles a lot when I'm stopped but shuts off as soon as I start moving beyond a crawl.


We were initially using a pressure switch, but under race conditions when the ATF would heat up our viscosity would change and cause fluctuations within the bypass valve and pressure switch that would occasionally cause short cycling. We tried several different pumps and switches, and finally went with an RPM switch. While we agree that a pressure switch in theory is a much better solution, in the real world the RPM switch gave us the robust operation that we needed in a race situation.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Is there an easy way to distinguish the low gear ratio? I'm looking to pick up a Craigslist powerglide, and I'd really like to get the 1.82, as I'm going to need as much gear as I can get.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

I am glad I found this thread as I am in the process of building an EV for my hybrid. Here is my current set up: Netgain 9" motor, 120V pack Lithium Ion.

Here is my goal: 80 mph+. It will be a sports car so I would like both highest speed and fast off the line. I would however like a gear for city driving.

What would be the best set up for the powerglide and rear end? I hope you can provide me specifics like gear ratios.

Would a 3 speed be a better option?

Thanks, 

Daniel


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> I am glad I found this thread as I am in the process of building an EV for my hybrid. Here is my current set up: Netgain 9" motor, 120V pack Lithium Ion.
> 
> Here is my goal: 80 mph+. It will be a sports car so I would like both highest speed and fast off the line. I would however like a gear for city driving.
> 
> ...


I'm currently reading "ICE free" that I purchased from Jack. That's a quick way to wrap your head around a lot of the basics. Transmission specifics is just not something we've really gone after just yet. On the Carmen Geah project proper gear ratios for a manual transmission were effectively discussed for an AC motor. If you were using a "Glide" with a torque converter remember the stock converter will effectively double your available torque off the line. My conversion transmission is an experiment with a new-fangled converterless configuration. Initial road testing will be in a pickup truck with a 4.10:1 ring and pinion. Because I'm using a Siemens AC motor my back-emf profile will be different from the DC 9". Others would be more qualified than me to comment but your pack voltage would tend to point me toward a TH700R4 of a 4L60E transmission where your high torque but truncated RPM range wouldn't be such a bother. For range extension, the lock-up torque converter feature of these automatics could be placed in over-ride control directly from the GEVCU-4 (coming soon to Jack's inventory). The 3.06:1 low gear ratio would most likely eliminate the need to change out the ring and pinion on your roller with a 9" DC. In most cases you might not even need low gear. Remember, I've never built an electric yet.
The rumor here was that Jack put a Hughs converter in his GM six-speed. I've seen ad copy from Hughs claiming that they can provide a lock-up converter for the "Glide". I've never seen one yet so it could be made from pure un-obtainium.
Pardon me. I just noticed this inquiry came in on DIY. My references pertain to EVTV.me which is my primary lurker hangout after attending EVCCON. Check it out!


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## EV West (Jan 12, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> Is there an easy way to distinguish the low gear ratio? I'm looking to pick up a Craigslist powerglide, and I'd really like to get the 1.82, as I'm going to need as much gear as I can get.


Most that we've found are 1.76, but you can find the 1.82 gears real cheap and swap them out.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hello everyone:

Sorry but I only check the forum about once per month or I would have answered sooner.(I am not subscribed to any forums)

All Powerglides made for V8 engines have the 1.76 ratio low gear.

All Powerglides made for the I-4, I-6 and V6 engines are 1.82.

No, the gears will not exchange between the two. The 1.82 has a stamped sheet metal carrier and all 1.76 models have a machined steel carrier. The gears are of a very different size to allow any gear swapping. The entire planetary, gears and carrier needs replaced to do that.

Powerglides with two pressure ports on the right side have a front and a rear pump. (unless the rear one has been removed- they allowed push starting)
Ones with one front/right port have a front pump only. You only need the front pump......

Unless the owners know what the transmission came from, you can remove the pan and look under the valve body, through vent holes and see the forward planetary carrier to look for stamped or machined.(it is gripped by that big band) The stamped has a rounded rear corner, the machined one has a more square corner. look earlier in this thread for a pic.

An old oval track racing transmission is usually 1.82 as they want the reduction too. An old drag racing transmission is usually a 1.76 because they want that little extra strength of the machined carrier. Be wary of any used racing transmission as the gears are expensive to replace if they are worn badly.

So, any year I-4, I-6 or V-6 car is a likely one for you.

They go for $150-$350 in my area, in good used condition.

Miz

Miz


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

EV West said:


> Most that we've found are 1.76, but you can find the 1.82 gears real cheap and swap them out.


 The 1.82:1 low gear planetary carriers are stamped steel and came in the lower displacement cars. Mine was from a 6-cylinder Malibu with air cooling.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Earlier in this thread,
_________________________________________________________

I was asked if there was a potential problem with driving in low gear and overspeeding the planetaries. 

It was also asked if there was a problem with engine braking in an automatic.



1- I used my powerglide on city streets mostly where 45 MPH was the posted limit. I routinely cruise at 40 MPH in those areas. In an EV, it is so quiet that any noises are transferred to the driver. Yes, low gear is noisey, but a 40 MPH cruise seems to be OK, no heat or other problems. Yes, there is solid engine braking on regen, right down to zero MPH as there is oil pressure to keep the low band fully engaged.


2- My set up with an AC50 would achieve about 70 MPH in low gear at motor redline, but it was so scary sounding that you do not want to stay there long.

3- Yes, above 45 MPH or so in low gear should not be held for long due to the extreme planetary speeds. Should one planet gear shatter, a locked up transmission could result and give you the ride of a lifetime.

4- An automatic shifting powerglide without any engine vacuum to signal it might be as easy as putting lighter springs on the governor. Or maybe a lighter spring on the shift spool. (with the modulator and rod left in place)
But I do not have the time at present to perform the experiment.

Good luck to all who choose to go automatic in their EV's. I feel it is the way to go.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I am keen to build a glide for my future EV, but being located in Australia it makes more sense to build it myself here rather than the cost of shipping a built unit from the US.

My question is mainly for the EV West guys I guess (Or anyone else that can answer).

I watched the EV West video and was very impressed with the splined female input shaft assembly for coupling to the motor. In the video it is mentioned that it is a TH400 style female input shaft.

Can you tell me if this is an off the shelf item or is it custom made to use with the glide?

If it is off the shelf, does the spline match the standard Netgain motors or do you have to order a "special" motor from Netgain?

If custom, do you sell those separately?

Another question for the knowledgable people here...

The direct drive kits that are available look like they only have the tangs to drive the pump... Do you also run a standard input shaft inside those?
I.e. the adapter is splined internally for the input shaft?
I couldn't find much information on that through searching.

EDIT: Sorry, watched the video again and noticed the input shaft does go inside the adapter.

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Additional information:
__________________________________________________
A while ago, I contacted Hughes Performance in Phoenix. I discussed several drive options for transmissions powered by electric motors. The engineer I talked to was very interested on my experiences with electric cars and we shared a lot of information.

*Q-*My primary question for them was "How low of a stall speed could they get?"

*A-*He said they could make a 500 RPM stall converter for about $280 USD. For those of you needing power accessories, that would be a fine choice for you. It would use an almost factory trim transmission. The shift point could be changed with clever switching of springs on the spool and governor.

*POWERGLIDE:*







First= 1.78 or 1.82/ high=1:1



*T350:*







First=2.48/ second=1.48/ high= 1:1 It replaces the Powerglide exactly, using the same driveshaft as well as mount and linkage. (No adapters or plates). It would give you a super duper low gear.

*4L60E:*







But this one requires an expensive Opti-Shift transmission controller, the up side is that the shifts are fully adjustable by the twist of a knob. And the lock up is too! First=3.05/ second=1.62/ third= 1:1/ fourth=.6OD


*700R4* (a non electronic 4 speed, My choice for low tech and cost







First=3.06/ second=1.63/ third=1:1/ fourth=.7OD 
The shifts are modified by the governor and springs.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Can you run a lockup converter on a TH350?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

It would have to be a specially built one, but yes.

You can use a locking converter on anything. It stops turbine slip.

The original reason for a locking converter is to stop the turbine turning when in overdrive. If pushed hard in overdrive, a transmission would overheat if not for the locking converter. 

In a direct drive car, you could use a torque converter and no transmission if you needed to idle the accessories and AC compressor.

There are large SAE 3 torque converters that do this. They are a stand alone converter.









For my money, I would have Hughes build me a 500 stall converter. That low a speed would not be noticeable. A custom lock up converter requires a hydraulic circuit to support it (operate it).

So, a t350 would need some internal mods to lock the custom converter.

Better to use a 700R4 to begin with. It is a non electrical transmission that has 4 speeds forwards, locks the converter in late 3rd and fourth gears. 

Miz


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Note: There is no such thing as a "stall RPM", it's more of rough guideline. It depends on how much torque to apply to it, and how much the vehicle weighs.

If the electric motor will sit there happy at 500rpm without applying a lot of power, then when you stab the gas, the rpm will jump a lot. The more the vehicle weighs, the higher it revs.

Example with a high torque, heavy app. 7000 lb truck. With stock engine and tuning, it will idle at 600rpm and be happy. If I stab the gas, it will jump to 1500 RPM almost instantly. If I powerbrake it, I can bring it to 2100 rpm sitting still.

If I add HP to the engine, it still idles at 600, jumps to 1500 with a stab, but I can bring it to 3600rpm powerbraking. If I disable the converter lock, and just floor it, it will go all the way down the track at 3600-4000 rpm, even though it shifts 4 times.

Even with a stock engine, if you disable the TC lockup, the trans will overheat while driving. With big power, it will overheat in a 1/4 mi.

It would be interesting to see what a non-locking converter would do in an EV. I'm going to guess you won't like the results, and you will have to run cooling.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The entire industry is based on a theoretical "stall" figure. (That it changes with weight rpm oil viscosity and other facets is a given) A rated stall is at a standard figure so the manufacturer can advertise something. 

There are EV's out there running converters. Kevin @ Topeka electric is running a stock 4L60 with an Opti-shift in his Chevy 1/2 ton EV. Yes he is running the standard cooling circuit in the radiator. He idles it at 50 RPM and the truck begins to move around 300 RPM (If memory serves). The opti-shift sets the shift points and converter lock up. A nice unit, but pricey. 

They drive it every day as it is their shop truck.

Miz


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

What do you think about using a Bosch 044 high pressure fuel pump as external pump.

I think that it can do it, at least with a warm gearbox, but how will it cope with the ATF-fluid when cold?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

As far as an oil pump goes, it needs to be at least 1/2 of the low band pressure. It needs to have slightly more volume than the transmission leaks. All have internal designed in leaks. They are small if your trans is newly rebuilt. When your trans loses pressure, 99% of the time is worn out input shaft to output shaft bushing. (The so called "wedding band") 

ATF viscocity is light to begin with, so there is almost no practical difference cold to hot.

When plumbing the pump in, include a check valve after the pump before the trans. That way the pump and hoses will not be subject to the trans pressures and pressure spikes.

Miz


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

mizlplix said:


> As far as an oil pump goes, it needs to be at least 1/2 of the low band pressure. It needs to have slightly more volume than the transmission leaks.


Pressure wise i do not think it is a problem, it has a max of 8 bar (116 psi), but if it will have volume enough, especially with ATF instead of gasoline, is a good question. It can deliver 300 L/h (1.32 gpm) at 5 bar (72 psi). It has a max of 13A at 12V (156W). As fuel pump it is good for up to 700Hp. It also has an inbuit check valve on the pressure side.

I do not know how worn my Ford C3 trans is. It seem to be in a good working condition, no outside leaks, the ATF that was in it looked clear (though it can have been changed) and when test running it on the workbench behind my EM all sounded good. So i cross my fingers and hope it is good enough, else i will have to rebuild it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The pump that Kansas EV uses for their powerglide is a Delavan 60psi 2GPM, unit. I used the same one for my TH125, and it's not really big enough, though I don't have it plumbed ideally since it's going through the 1/8 test port plug which may be too restrictive. I do notice a difference between cold fluid and hot, when hot it does thin out more and the pump doesn't build as much pressure.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Looked a bit closer on Delavan pumps. I found 60 PSI 2 GPM units in the PowerFlo 7800 series:

http://www.delavanagpumps.com/powerflo/7801.htm

The table on that page says it deliver 1.05 GPM at 60 PSI and that it is not recommended with higher liquid temperature than 60C (140F), i think the temperature can reach borderline temps for that pump even without the converter. For the Bosch 044 pump (actually 0 580 254 044) i was thinking of, i have not found anything about temperature, beside that it seem to have about double the capacity than the Delavan 78X2, something its power draw also indicate, 14A compared to 5.7 for the Delavan. On the Bosch site they state 200L/h (0.88 GPM) at 5 bar (72.5 psi) and 15.5 amp draw, but they use something called N-Heptane as part of their engineering specification. Something i never heard of. All resellers i seen seem to be using higher flow number and less amps for the same pump. (??)

http://www.bosch.com.au/car_parts/en/downloads/fuelpumps.pdf


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Miz can tell you about the temps he sees in Arizona with his Powerglide, but I seem to remember they were within spec for that pump. I've had temps over 150F with my Delavan with no issues so far.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm looking at a '62 Corvair with the 2 speed "Aluminum Powerglide"

I read it has a vacuum throttle shifting mechenism, and am wondering is this is basically the same as most other powerglide models? is it typical in that respect?

thanks
josh


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm looking at a '62 Corvair with the 2 speed "Aluminum Powerglide" for EV conversion to a warp9 DC system.

I read it has a vacuum throttle shifting mechenism, and am wondering is this is basically the same as most other powerglide models? is it typical in that respect?

Also , in this case, is there a way to figure the ratio from motor to wheels? I've found typical 2nd gear driving to be unsatisfactory response, so I'm hoping the 1st gear of the 2 speed powerglide doesn't make the situation worse.

thanks
josh

FYI *This double post occured by using TorBrowser and having to re-login too often, some compatibility issue, who knows...*


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Powerglides, including the Corvair Powerglide, and TurboHydramtic transmissions, have vacuum modulator delete kits. One of the first engine transmission combos I ever rebuilt!


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## ElectroVair III (Jul 18, 2014)

Hello to all and I'd like to introduce myself and our cars also. We own two 1965 Corvair 2 dr hardtops, both are Powerglide versions, and my wife and I also have interest in converting one of the two now owned, or perhaps yet another late model Corvair to full electric. The Corvair Powerglide, being a common critter, has some interesting qualities that I have not yet read on the blog about. Specifically..the FC (Forward Control) Powerglides used in some rarer applications (ambulances for example) had factory external oil coolers. I just happen to have one of these Powerglides in my shop right now, so I can easily set up a session to determine exactly what is needed to modify an existing non-cooler unit to upgrade to an external cooler specifically for EV conversion use. No torque converter needed and your already set up with a GM stock method sure to keep our 2 speeds happy even in the hottest of climates. One other topic on the design...perhaps we can "tap" the hydraulics to then drive the governor circuit (in other words...replace the vacuum modulator and governor totally and directly apply the circuit in order to work with the existing TV/Manual valve..no vacuum "signal" required and by doing so we would have full fingertip cockpit control of the upshift speed!). I also own two "Corsa" Powerglides for Corvair which are set up a little differently than the lesser horsepower versions. The Corsa version has an "orange splash" on the pump housing to distinguish it from the non-Corsa use. Corsa was always 140 Hp or (optioned Turbocharged 180 hp) and the 140 hp version was unique in that the crankshaft/cam timing is retarded purposely compared to all the other Corvair crankshaft settings. The 1965 Monza also was optioned with 140Hp and Powerglide or Manual, so the same Corsa Powerglide was under the 1965 Monza with 140Hp/Automatic Optioned engines. In 1966 only Corsa had 140 or 180 Hp options. One of our 65 Monza's was a 140 Hp Powerglide option car. 
It is also historical fact that Chevrolet built two full electric test versions of the car named Electrovair I and Electrovair II. Both used manual gearboxes however. I chose my moniker as Electrovair III because I know that the Powerglide Corvair is a very strong candidate with the driveline modified for full electric and I feel it to be an outstanding car for conversion. Since I already drive them daily I can attest to the fact that the cornering is quite good for a 60's design car. I own only late model Corvairs, but there is no reason the early versions cannot also enjoy the conversion. FC's as well. The late model cars do have superior suspensions, yet retain the basic simplicity originally designed. It is my intention to convert and I am happy to have found likewise minded experimenters interested in using GM's transmission doing so. I cannot think of a better automatic gearbox for use in an electric than a "low/high" only. The differentials are also very easy to set up and posi-traction is available. 
Being a retired aerospace engineer also helps me keep the k.i.s.s. process in mind. It's pretty tough to get a more simple US made car to convert than a Corvair. That said I have much to learn about the electrics. Motors, batteries, charge controllers..ect. It seems there are new advances each month. Which to use? I always reserve the right to get smarter. By the way..we live fully "off grid" and our Solar array will usually top our batteries off by 10Am in Summer. After then I am usually looking for ways to use the electrons, so a plug in converted Corvair would fit that rather nicely. Our system is based on 24v. We have an 11Kw continuous rated, 22Kw peak inverter driven by 2400 amp hour 12v AGM's. I hope to meet some of you in person and I hope to be able to gleen from experience what I am entering into here.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Unfortunately batteries do not get better each month. There have been some recent, minor advancements from CALB, and there are now some used Nissan cells available. Looking forward to your efforts with the Corvair.


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## ElectroVair III (Jul 18, 2014)

With the design of the car as it is now the battery packs can easily be split between the front trunk and below the rear seat. That should keep the weight distribution well within the design ability. There is nothing electronic on the car and the wiring is stone age simple. The car actually handles better with weight up front. In strong crosswinds it is a good idea to put the spare and tools up front, less drifting. Manual steering, manual brakes too (but larger disk are very easy to convert to). The later 67 and up dual master cylinder is an easy swap also. I agree that battery/storage is the anchor preventing the move forward from fossil fuels..and I hope that what is currently being worked on can overcome this. For now my company really needs the exposure...because if we are "by example" we can be the local spokespersons promoting the move to full electric.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi ElectroVair, great to hear about your cool ideas and plans.
I was looking into buying and converting a Corvair to EV, before my recent purchase of a 65 Ford Cortina, but still happy to hear about corvairs.

Don't know if this helps at all, but when I was researching and asking on the corvair forums, there were a few pics posted of at least 2 electro-corvairs in existence, you can see some of them in this thread http://www.corvairforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8180

-josh


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

I almost cry when I think of the '65 Monza sedan I used to have. Would have been an awesome electric car, even if heavy!


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## ElectroVair III (Jul 18, 2014)

Well.. I have been mulling over a bit the approach. It also seems there is a shop converting Corvairs to electric and they state "2 speed automatic", not manual or direct drive.

Anyone know of these folks and the work they may be doing with the Corvair Powerglide converted for electric use?

http://highvoltagehotrods.com/cars/high-voltage-corvair/

A bit of background. I am a retired aerospace engineer and have extensive experience in the various composite material manufacturing methods. I am also a Pilot, A&P certificated mechanic, and ASE certificated as well. I guess you could say I like machines.  

Anyway.. here's the thought mulling over. The concept of Hypercars is to build light and aerodynamic, yet we should try to plagiarize (use off the shelf already engineered parts) as much as possible..cuts down on costs. With two 65 Corvairs in my possession I am seriously considering making I.M.L. (which becomes O.M.L.) splashes from the body and reproducing female tooling to make a sandwich constructed body. Using vacuum resin impreg methods; the construction from not terribly expensive tooling can be light, true to form, and yet remain a reasonably safe structure on the roads. Over time it would actually be superior to the steel construction in that rust is not on the menu as is always present in the steel body car I drive. 

The beauty of the Corvair powertrain is the modularity. No problem with the IC or electric to operate on the shop floor for testing as it would on the highways, with little difficulty. I am rough estimating by using alternative construction methods it would save in the area of 300 to possibly 400 pounds in empty weight compared to the stock steel unibody construction coverted to Electric. The fact that the entire front suspension is a bolt in design also makes the prototype build that much easier. The title weight of the 2dr ht 65-69 Corvair is 2475Lbs with the IC/Powerglide, no air conditioning, as delivered from the Willow Run GM plant where both of my cars were built. 

Just under 2000 Lbs empty, that would include the drivetrain with motor but not the battery pack(s). 

I am looking for the appropriate motor/controller/pack voltage. Suggestions are welcome!!! The stock I/C engine weighs about 240Lbs running in the car, and produces 90 to 100 Hp at around 5000 Rpm. Torque is usually best around 3800 Rpm. Due to simplicity it appears DC may still be the most cost effective. We are not looking for the longest range, but performance is a definite goal. 

Since we live 100% off grid, Solar DC is already part of the household. Our garage roof is a good place for the PV to charge the Electrovair. Our home system is 24v based.


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## ElectroVair III (Jul 18, 2014)

few2many said:


> I almost cry when I think of the '65 Monza sedan I used to have. Would have been an awesome electric car, even if heavy!


 They are surprisingly inexpensive because most present day mechanics do not understand the nuances of the design. 1.3 Million total were built and many are still in the barns and back yards. On Craigslist one can usually find at least one late model 2 dr ht for under 2K almost any month you'd choose to look from most large cities listed. Remember your car and how it handled on the curves? Man..that car grabs the road. The fun is how I meet a ton of folks that always have a memory to share. Its fun. Electric converted would be the hoot for anyone chatting with you. I will weigh the doors/deck/trunk and once the composite parts are made we can determine how many pounds can be shaved from an otherwise stock steel body car. 2475 Lbs on the title ready to drive.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have been doing some test drives with my conversion, i have a Ford C3 transmission and i start to think that a Powerglide would have been a better choice for me with my Kostov K11 motor. First gear in the C3 feels almost silly. I have also some trouble getting it to shift right. Between second and third, it overshoots a bit, even if i go lightly on the throttle. If i suddenly step on it while in second, around 3000 RPM and the stick in D, there are some slippage, but if i have the stick in second and step on it at the same speed, there are no slippage. Obviously this means it has a higher pressure with the stick in second than it has in D, i do not know how to fix this if it cannot be adjusted away with the modulator and/or the kickdown.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Sorry for the slow reply. (I only scan the forum once per week, now a days)

I might be able to help you find a workable solution.

This transmission needs engine vacuum to signal the modulator "when" to shift. You lost that when you removed the ICE. 

This transmission needs two things to happen in order to shift: 
- A drop in vacuum to signal engine RPM.
- An increase in RPM to expand the governor weights on the tail shaft.

There are some things you can do to change the shift point.

The first I would suggest is to alter the primary throttle pressure by removing the modulator and pulling out the small push rod. This rod length is critical to the shift timing and force.

Make another rod out of almost anything. Shorten it 1/16" at a time and drive the car. OR make a plug to replace the modulator with a threaded push rod so it can be adjusted easier. 

GM products use a cable to the throttle linkage to do the job of a vacuum modulator. You can make a bell crank with the throttle POT on it and a cable to operate in synch. Adjustments to the cable will make the transmission operate normally, BUT this is a lot of work. (As long as the cable length is always in relation to the POT position, you will have a good shift)

You really need to know the transmission pressures. Buy a 300 PSI pressure gauge and 8' of a small hydraulic hose with 1/8" NPT threads on one end to tap into the transmission pressure port. Notice idling pressures, pressures just before and after the shift. 

Suggestions:

http://www.amazon.com/WIKA-9767240-...&qid=1411305161&sr=1-8&keywords=300+PSI+gauge

HOSE: Get an 8' X 1/4" 2 braid hose. 1/8" MPT / swivel on one end (Fits the trans press port). 1/4" FPT on the other (Matches the gauge threads)

Run the hose from the small pressure port out and up thru the door window so you can watch while driving the car.


Then you make it shift in DRIVE 2nd to 3rd, then in 2nd manually to 3rd.
Notice the pressure difference? You can then modify the push rod easier when you see the actual pressures.

Miz


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks "mizlplix". But i have already a static adjustment of the modulator and a similar adjustment of the kickdown-lever.

http://www.steelneck.eu/2014-05-05/justera-vaxling

Yesterday i actually had it shifting at least acceptable, but today my overhauled "new" C3 broke down (not the old one in pictures at the liked page), suddenly the internal pump started to make a very harsh ticking sound following RPM and now there is no pressure, luckily i could drive the car slowly into my garage thanks to the external electric pump (actually a 5 bar Bosch 044 fuel pump). 

I could probably put together a working unit from my old worn out tranny and this one. But now it feels like i have given up on the C3 tranny. I think i will get a direct drive Powerglide with a full manual valve body. I have not decided if i shall try to hunt down a used PG in decent shape and price and rebuild it my self, or if i will buy something like a Circletrack PG from TCI Auto or something like it, then build an adapter to my Kostov K11.


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I am getting closer to getting this Powerglide installed. Just need to get the adapter plate. I decided to have professionals rebuild it for me.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Rob: That is a nice looking transmission. Just be sure to loop the coolant circuit from "*out to in*" making a continuous loop. If the torque converter has been deleted, no cooler is necessary as most of the heat was caused by the converter. 

But : the return oil does go directly to the low gear planets and provides cooling as well as oiling at that point. Sudden planetary failure WILL result if this loop is deleted.

I see the external hose and valve loop that has been added. It provides a low gear delay on engagement and acts as sort of a centrifugal clutch. At an idle, the oil flow bypasses and the piston does not engage low gear. When the throttle is picked up, the increase in oil flow finally out does the small leak and the transmission goes into low gear. (I was using an external pump to keep low in gear.)

When you make this modification, you need a Kevlar low band as the low band then becomes the low gear clutch and a regular band will quickly fail as it is only paper. 

You will have to adjust that valve just right for this to work as planned and every transmission will be different. 

I am anxious to see how well this works on a street car as the race cars are rather abrupt, but street cars are idling slower and they are slightly heavier too.

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

I did connect a hose to the in and out of the cooler ports.
I do have a kevlar band installed and it has a manual shift valve body installed.
I was planning on not idling the motor when stopped, I am hoping that if I am smooth on the throttle the transmission will slowly engage the band and it will be a smooth start. But if I hammer on the throttle I am hoping for a quick start.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You never want to "idle" an electric motor at stops unless you have A/C or accessories installed. That is where you pick up some mileage (by nothing running at a stop).

We could drive the car onto and off of the trailer with the valve set perfectly. My guess is that you will have the valve 1/2 open or even more 
for a smooth take off.

You can even "Tee" a small accumulator in at that port in the low piston cover. Then by varying the accumulator pre-charge, you can cushion the engagement too.

And not putting the trans in low when the vehicle is moving. Instant rear wheel lock up. (Lots of disgusted looks too) You actually can shift to low when moving. 
You peg the throttle pedal then drop the shifter into low, then back off the throttle again. Works smoothly with practice. You always shift from low to high OR high to low, with power applied.....
(There again, if you do not apply power, the vehicle will jerk a little.)


Lots of tricks. But you will figure it out!

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

So I am trying to put this thing together and I don't know how to set up this torque converter eliminator.
I don't know how many shims to use on the screw cap and where to put the snap ring for the hub.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Rob: It is all determined by the bell housing measurement.

!- Before you do anything....you need to carefully file or dremel the drive slots in the new sleeve. Make the corners of the slots smooth and lightly rounded so they will not cut the transmission front seal.

2-Place the adaptor plate on the motor.
3-Place the hub on the motor.
4-Lubricate the sleeve with ATF and slide the drive sleeve into the transmission. being careful to make sure the two drive lugs are engaged fully in the oil pump gears. 

5-(Do not mount the flange yet,) assemble the motor/plate/hub assembly to the transmission/sleeve assembly, with the cap screwed or pushed fully in. (Do this out on the floor before you set it into the car......)

6-(Working through the bottom bellhousing hole,) Keep adding shims until you have a perfect fit. Then subtract 1/16" to allow the sleeve to wriggle back and forth some. (To allow for some expansion/contraction and not bind up and break the oil pump drive gear.)

7-After you have determined the correct shims, disassemble and mount the flange onto the sleeve and place it all back together. Holding the flange firmly against the hub, look and see what slot you will need to use for the snap ring. Notice the ring will go slightly into the flange in a shallow recess. (It is OK to have a little more clearance, never go tighter.)

8- Mount the snap ring carefully! It damages easily. Carefully tap it into the groove. The flange can be bolted to the hub/plate/motor assy. before pushing it together, it is easier to tighten the bolts.

9- Final assemble the whole thing. Make sure the seal is lightly lubed with ATF. You might need to tap gently to get that snap ring to go into the recess in the flange.

10- Do a final check after bolting everything together. Make sure the sleeve will wriggle a little and is not trapped too tightly between the transmission and the motor.

Drink two beers at this time.

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks Miz
This helps a lot. I can't wait to get to the "drink two beers" part.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Note that volumetric measurements of the 2 beers are not crucial to success of the transmission, but use caution when drinking and operating machinery!


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## Carnut1100 (Jan 13, 2015)

Somewhat left field question for the Powerglide experts.....

I am well into the planning phase of a conversion of a 1962/63 Holden EJ to electric (I am looking at base cars for the conversion, haven't got one yet but decided on the model) using the electric drive components from an accident damaged Mitsubishi imiev (my wife's imiev which was rear ended a few months ago...).

The EJ and imiev are only 30 kilograms different in kerb weight so the performance and range of the conversion should be similar to the imiev.

The issue is that the only way I can fit the imiev drive unit complete would be to cut the boot floor and mount the drive unit backwards and rewire it to run in reverse....but if I go that way I have to fabricate a deDion axle from scratch to hold the wheels....

The other option is to toss the imiev reduction gear, use a Volvo 240 rear axle (disc brakes, Dana 30 centre so lots of ratio choices and a Truetrac LSD easy to find, same bolt pattern as EJ, almost exact track width, and I have a bunch of them in my yard...) and mount he motor up front with a reduction gear to get the overall ratio right. 
One of the Volvo ratios matched to Powerglide in Low is almost a perfect match to the original Mitsubishi ratio.
Early Holdens had Powerglides as an option so it will bolt right in and an adapter for the motor is easy. 

Thing is, I'd rather not be running external pumps, and I don't want any gears except low.
Reverse is a controller function and I don't need high.
I would want to permanently engage Low but still allow the selector to be used to engage Park so the valve body would need disabling. 

Theory, can I whack a bloody big spring or shim behind the L servo piston to permanently engage L, block or delete the valve body, have no need for hydraulic pressure but just use the pump to lube the bearings and gears while moving?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

How about a Borg Warner 13-xx series transfer case and adjust differential ratio? Electric or manual shift and up to 1.6 ratios.


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## Carnut1100 (Jan 13, 2015)

Might work.....what would I normally find one of those in?


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

So when I have no play in the sleeve I have a .250" gap shown below.











Each spacer washer is .125" thick. If I put two in there I don't think I have enough free play. This is what it looks like with one spacer washer. Is 1/8" too much free play?


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, 1/8" is way too much. Like twice....

You need to get a sander and keep sanding one washer down until you have 1/16" or slightly less play.

If you have access to a lathe, that would be great!

Then, red locktite the threads when you get it finally set. It will never change.

I went the other way as my sleeve was not adjustable. I went one snap ring groove too far and shortened the pump drive end. It is nothing special and dead soft.

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks Miz
I will take one of my spacers to work and get it machined down.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just a couple of things I learned the hard way:
__________________________________________________

1. When I was still running the AC50/powerglide combo. 
With no ICE noises it was VERY quiet.
The scream of the planetaries when in low gear and trying to cruise 
along at 4500FPM. I quickly learned to "put it in high" as soon as you can.
So.....Running in low gear only will get pretty noisy.

2. Removing the valve body is the easy part. Capturing the oil output from the front pump is going to be harder, a ton of odd interfaces will have to be delt with. An external hose to feed the rear bearing, feeding the front bearing, and lastly.....introducing oil back into the housing at some point to cool/lube the planetaries, and building a high pressure pop-off valve to dump all extra oil made when reving the motor up.

miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I got the Powerglide mounted in the Ranchero. I just need to get the shift linkage figured out.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

VERY nice! 

You may have to reverse the shift lever to make it work with your column linkage.

Aftermarket shifter kits are expensive. I used this one from Speedway:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lokar...ter-Powerglide-16-In-Mushroom-Knob,95257.html











They also have it in a floor mount.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

We call them a "Motor" as engine is used for an ICE.

You will get a better response if you post in the MOTOR section.

Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like a window slinging spambot to me anyway.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

CARNUT: you can run into problems using the controller to reverse the car when using a powerglide. It does not like to turn backwards.......as the main pump wants to suck out oil from the pressure side of the trans. Just a thought. OK you might drill the pump pressure side like I did and put a check valve to hold pressure in the pump, but allow it to pull oil from the pan when in reverse.....

Also: low planetaries are extremely noisy when there is no motor/exhaust to drown them out........

One of my vids has it go by me while filming.......jet engine loud!!

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I have tried the flow control Modification and I don't like it. You have to be very easy on the throttle for a smooth start. When you open up the flow control it gets a little smoother to a point but the RPM's get higher before engagement so now the band has to clamp down on a faster spinning drum. 
I have adjusted the flow control in half turn increments and I haven't found a good setting. I get to a point when the RPM's get pretty high (before engagement) and it seems that if I keep it at that setting the band will not last very long.
I think I will try installing a pump to keep the hydraulic pressure when I am stopped.


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## QuietCar (Jan 3, 2013)

You do not need a pump that is the whole system pressure. Just enough to take up the slack in the band before the main pump starts ramping up.

Some have used 50 PSI. One used 140 PSI. No difference.

The main point is to have enough flow to over pressure the internal transmission leaks. 1.5-2 Gal per minute.

QC


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Rob: The pump used earlier in this thread works well. The pressure switch that comes with it shuts the pump off most of the time. I can stop and it is several seconds before it starts working. That is directly a product of the individual transmission internal leaks.

Yah, engaging a spinning drum requires a Kevlar band. It will wear out a paper one.

Shoot for a pump of 2 GPM and 60 PSI minimum.

Transmission fluid in this usage does not get very hot. It is not like where you have a torque converter. My pump has a neoprene variant diaphragm and viton valves. It is off-the-shelf. Nothing special.

In one instance, one guy used an EFI type fuel pump. I would be interested in knowing the GPM rating of one of those.

Good luck with your car. Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Miz: Thanks for the info. The car is a lot more fun to drive. With a 4900rpm limit on the motor I top out at 39mph in low gear and in drive I have had it up to 64mph.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Miz, have you thought about an accumulator with an electric valve? I would think the operation would be simple. When you drive, the electric valve is open and the accumulator is pressurized. When you press the brake to stop, power is cut (or supplied, depending on setup) to the valve and the accumulator holds pressure while at a stop. When you take your foot off the brake, the electric valve opens and you should have full pressure almost instantly. Revving the motor in park or neutral should precharge the accumulator, if necessary.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I just never got around to trying it. 

Most cost more than a cheap pump.....

But one can be made from a small hydraulic cylinder.
Place a spring inside around the shaft or the big end and fill the opposite side.

Hook the normally closed valve to the key switch with a relay, routed thru the stop light switch via another relay. Turn the key on, you have pressure to engage low. It recharges during driving. When you brake, the key signal is broken, the valve is shut, holding pressure. One hopes it goes into gear between foot lift from brake and apply at throttle pedal.

But I think it would.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Just recently, I pulled the powerglide down and replaced the low gear planetaries. (They had 4 racing seasons on them and howled loudly)

It used to make me cringe to drive in low any length of time.
It should be much quieter now.

If the 4R100 ever goes out in my truck, I think I will put in a powerglide.
They are simple and robust. 

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I have decided to not do the pump, I am going to try an accumulator.
Here are a couple pics.


















The solenoid valve I got will let the accumulator fill when the transmission is spinning but the oil will not come out of the accumulator until the solenoid is energized. So I have a programmable relay installed that will open the solenoid valve for 5 seconds when I let off the brakes.
It all sounds good but the real test will be this weekend.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You should set the accumulator pressure at approximately half the transmission system pressure. (which you can get from any transmission book)

With that 2 quart accumulator, I could get an easy 5-8 minutes of pressure, because my trans is newly rebuilt. (and tight) It takes 4-5 seconds after I stop before the pump starts running. 

Let me know how it goes, I await eagerly.

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well the accumulator works great. I can be stopped at a light for a long time but as soon as I take my foot off the brake the accumulator pressurizes the transmission and off I go.


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

That's great work!!
I never imagined that would work but great to know it does! 
thanks for shearing Rob!


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Does it store pressure for long periods? How about a cold start? (Nice idea, BTW)


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

I had it storing pressure for 2 days which revealed a couple of small leaks I had to fix.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

We discussed accumulators earlier in this thread, but you are the first to try one. KUDOS! 

Everyones main objection to them was cost. A pump was $80 - $100. The accumulators were $200 plus another $100 or so for valve block and hose.

Your interest has made me stop what I was doing and try to make a cheap workable accumulator.

I Can convert a small hydraulic cylinder to be an accumulator. I have one on order, $32 at EBAY. One side will get a reducer bushing in the end cap port 
to take a screw in tire valve stem and core for pressurizing. 

The other end port will accept the hydraulic hose.

It can be used just like that, but the rod would need room to extend and retract.

OR, disassemble the cylinder and cut the rod off near the piston, leaving the threaded stub to seal the mounting hole in the piston. (An alternate fix would to remove the rod completely and tap the hole with a pipe thread tap and install a plug.)

THEN, you will need to plug the rod exit hole in the end cap, by tapping to a pipe thread and plugging it too.

You are left with a free-piston accumulator. (For $32.......)

Then you will need a normally closed valve block to capture the charge. 

It would be closed when parked, ignition switch off.
It would turn on when the key was on, pressuring the low band (or reverse).
The load must not be run through the brake light switch, So an ice cube relay should be used. The key switch will power thru the relay and the brake signal would open the relay cuting power to the valve allowing it to close when stopped (foot on the brake) and be open when driving, key on (to charge). 

When you stop to exit, the key switch kills the power, closing the valve to capture the charge. (Like I assume you did)

The cylinder arrives friday. I will report as soon as I have it plumbed into the car. Hopefully it will be under $100.

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

This is the valve I used
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...FORCE-12-VDC-N-C-SOLENOID-VALVE-9-5112-NC.axd
It is a one way valve when de-energized so when the transmission is producing pressure it is filling the accumulator. The only time the pressure is released from the accumulator is when the key is on and the brake pedal is released. This opens the valve for 5 seconds.
Here is a time delay relay that should work and is a lot cheaper than the programmable relay I used.
http://www.wolstentech.com/products/timedelayrelay/tdr-mf.php


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I have a few trips on the car using the accumulator and it really works nice. I knew this wasn't going to be the cheapest solution but I think it is the easiest. This setup cost me $292.75 not including the programmable relay. The relay I mention in the previous post will do the trick for $31.25
My reasoning for going this route is:
1. Simple installation - 1 hose from trans to solenoid valve and another hose from valve to accumulator. (I had the whole thing installed in an hour)
2. While I am stopped I don't have to listen to a pump running.
3. My DC-DC converter is small and a pump takes a fair amount of current to run. The solenoid valve takes 1.8Amps

Now my transmission is a newly rebuilt powerglide with 200 miles on it. The max pressure it puts out is 150PSI. If I have around 130PSI in the accumulator it takes about 3 brake pedal cycles get to 0PSI in the accumulator.


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

The accumulator is an interesting idea and may help solve a potential problem with my powerglide. I am drag racing with my EV and trying to resolve weaknesses in the powerglide. Already replaced the guts with straight cut low gears, 10 pack of alto clutches for the high gear, dual ring servo, adjustable valve body, etc.

The car is making enough torque to lift the front tires off the ground, so it is brutal on the transmission.... but that is where the fun is 

I am running an external pump with an RPM switch so that it turns off at 900 rpm and back on at 700 rpm. This works ok, but is only making about 100 psi. The pump is rated to 75 psi but I have it turned up to the stop and drawing 30A from 12V.

I think I need more pressure to get the low band to lock up better. I just replaced it with a kevlar band, but after only 4 hard launches at the drag strip, the kevlar is already starting to discolor. The transmission input shaft also twisted from torque and is being replaced with a Vasco M300 steel, larger diameter shaft. 

The valve body is adjustable and currently set at 185 psi, but might need to go as high at 220-240 psi for racing.

If the 100 psi external pump is allowing some low band slip, then the accumulator might be a good way to increase pressure. The burn-out would create full pressure on the internal pump, which could be released back to the transmission for launch.

Any concerns with the parts mentioned in this thread when running to 220 psi?

Wayne Krauth
Snake Oil Racing
evalbum.com/3567




Rob A said:


> Well I have a few trips on the car using the accumulator and it really works nice. I knew this wasn't going to be the cheapest solution but I think it is the easiest. This setup cost me $292.75 not including the programmable relay. The relay I mention in the previous post will do the trick for $31.25
> My reasoning for going this route is:
> 1. Simple installation - 1 hose from trans to solenoid valve and another hose from valve to accumulator. (I had the whole thing installed in an hour)
> 2. While I am stopped I don't have to listen to a pump running.
> ...


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

The only thing that cannot handle that pressure in my system is the accumulator. The relief valve will pop off at 175PSI. I think you would need a converted hydraulic cylinder to use as the accumulator. The hydraulic cylinders we use at work can easily handle 1000PSI.
All the fittings and hoses I used can handle over 1000PSI.


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

Rob A said:


> The only thing that cannot handle that pressure in my system is the accumulator. The relief valve will pop off at 175PSI. I think you would need a converted hydraulic cylinder to use as the accumulator. The hydraulic cylinders we use at work can easily handle 1000PSI.
> All the fittings and hoses I used can handle over 1000PSI.


Very interesting. I have an automatic in my EV and have the "slip until the rpm goes up" problem. Are you using the one quart Canton Racing Products 24-046 Accusump oil accumulator?

Keep up the good work.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It seems as if you need a fairly tight transmission to use an accumulator. The TH125 in my Fiero, while rebuilt, could not work with an accumulator since it drops pressure almost immediately when stopped.


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

> Very interesting. I have an automatic in my EV and have the "slip until the rpm goes up" problem. Are you using the one quart Canton Racing Products 24-046 Accusump oil accumulator?


Yes, that is the accumulator I used. This setup works way better than I expected. I think the solenoid valve is the critical part. It needs to have a good flow rate and allow the accumulator to fill when the solenoid is de-energized.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I just bought a small hydraulic cylinder to convert to an accumulator and a solenoid valve. The valve allows in flow to the accumulator when shut and flows both ways when open. I have the cylinder but need a few more days to get the valve. 

The one I bought was about 1 Qt. as my glide is fairly tight. the bigger, the better for a used trans.

The cylinder was $35 and the 12VDC valve was $28 on EBAY. I am using 500PSI stainless steel braided hoses, which I already owned.

I have used a Kevlar band for 2 seasons oval track with very little wear, so if you are wearing one out you will need a high gear drum also, as it clams to it. You can get one with up to 6 clutch plates for best clamping action. It pairs up with the inner hub to match. 

Drag race powerglides use a T400 sized input shaft. They hold under 1000+ HP. We used to scribe a line along the shaft and discard it when it got 90DEG of twist.

Likewise, they all convert to the short output shaft as a higher torque rating. 

Yes, you definitely need a higher clamping pressure if you are spinning the low band. I was using a 140# pump, but it was kinda high for normal usage. 60PSI works for a normal traffic take off.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Budget accumulator.......How to:
_________________________________
In this short How-to, I demonstrate how to make an effective accumulator for use with your modified Powerglide transmission.

Pic 1 shows the cylinder apart. You can use any size you want. I chose this smaller one, 1 Qt. in volume.











Pic 2 shows the rod end bushing. It needs to be plugged. The best plug is placed inside the cap and not on the outside. I have already tapped the threads for the plug.











Pic 3 shows the piston with the rod cut off. This way we still have the inner oring seal to prevent internal leaking. I used a whizzer wheel to cut the rod as it is almost as hard as the hack saw I tried. A little file and grinder will clean it up nicely. The rod stub is not a problem in my cylinder as it has counter bores in each cap. You might have to cut yours closer.









Yes, I did remove the rings before cutting.....


Pic 4 is of the reducer bushing and the 1/8" NPT valve core, used to charge the cylinder.












Pic 9 Has it all assembled. This valve block can be screwed directly to the cylinder port with a 3/8"NPT X -8ORB fitting.










I have a -6JIC to _8ORB fitting for the outlet port so my hose can connect up.

The cylinder should be precharged with 50% of it's operating pressure. After it gets filled with oil, it should be near full system pressure.

And again.....NO, nitrogen is not necessary. Plain old air works nicely. 

I have $83 in this set up. It could be done for less.....

Miz


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## Rob A (Feb 7, 2010)

That is a clean setup. That valve looks just like the one I got. I had to run the accumulator into the side port(2) and the transmission line ran into the bottom port(1).


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I checked the valve with air pressure and it is open both ways when not powered, closed when powered- closed both ways so the port does not matter.

I need to use a relay to power it. But hook it up to the brake light switch so it will close when I brake, then open when I let off of the brake. 

It will be opened and drain empty when parked. I just need to remember to spin the motor in park momentarily before placing it into gear. A normally closed valve would work better maybe. I should buy one and try both.

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I now have a few miles on the accumulator set up and I have learned that I do not necessarily have to spin up the motor at first to fill the accumulator. 

I just go out, pack switch on, key on, put it in reverse gear and slowly give it throttle. It feels like a big rubber band when it takes off. I reach the end of the driveway and put it into low gear. It engages immediately and I take off.

I tried it without a valve, where it bleeds down when stopped. It goes into gear so smoothly that I think I will remove the valve completely. 

This means the low band does slip until full lock up causing some wear, but I have the Kevlar band AND my car weighs 1,900Lbs. 

Lets see what kind of life I get......

I am not running a Speedometer at this point. I have 45 MPH marked on the tach. It is installed and should get hooked up sometime.


Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I have been trying to decide between the PowerGlide and GV overdrive for my yet to be built EV and I was almost set on the GV overdrive until I calculated the price at 6K AUD with the current exchange rate and import duties etc.

This pushed me back to the PG idea and I managed to pick up a 6 Cylinder one from an Australian HR Holden.

The best part is that it has a removable bell housing as standard and the second best part is it didn't cost me anything.

I am going to strip it down and check everything before I use it as I don't know it's condition apart from the fact that it was driving fine as an ICE.

Could the experts answer a few questions for me as I am new to the PowerGlide box?

I take it the contraption on the output shaft is the RPM governor/modulator?
Can this be left off if going to a manual valve body?

The extra lever coming out of the shift lever shaft, is that the Kickdown lever?
Is that the same thing that Miz refers to as the passing gear?
Does that get removed with a manual valve body?
And I assume the vacuum modulator as well?

I want to run this with a single 11" Transwarp initially with the option of adding a second Transwarp later and I am wondering if the electric pump is able to provide enough pressure to allow full torque launches?

I assume the front band will suffer badly if the pressure is not high enough?

For a racing application I think I will need to look at the accumulator idea as ev99saturn has found. 
Miz you mentioned that the accumulator is pressurised (with air) to half the line pressure. Does this mean you will only get that pressure from a start?
I understand that if you make it the same then it won't fill with fluid.
Is there any way to get full line pressure from the accumulator. Perhaps with CO2 pressurisation prior to launch for racing but lower air pressure for normal driving? 

EDIT: One last question...

I tried pulling the input shaft out (have seen this done before) but its gets about an inch out and then is locked.
Is there something else I need to do here?

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Hello Mike: 

1- Yes, that odd looking thing is the governor. Yes, it gets removed when going to full manual operation. The modulator is the small yellow can looking thing on the rear of the main case. It regulates the line pressure and it too gets removed in the manual kit. Your transmission is an early model with a second oil pump in the rear of the main shaft. It too will be eliminated, as it was for push starting an ICE. If this was a 6 cylinder model, it will not have the full amount of high gear clutches. You might buy the V8 hub and drum so you can get 5-6 clutches in it. You will need a two ring piston for the low gear band too. 

2- Yes, the small lever by the shift quadrant is the kickdown (Passing gear to us Yanks). It is sometimes removed. It is sometimes changed to release an internal pressure valve on ICE applications for circle track cars.

3- Yes, for full power launches, you will need the full 140PSI to clamp the band. (Use a Kevlar band and type "F" fluid as it grips the best).

4- No, A pre-charge is only the starting pressure. If the precharge is too low, the accumulator will fill with oil and not get to full pressure. If the precharge is too high it will not completely fill the accumulator with oil, as the pressure maxed out early. About 50% of the full operating pressure is the hydraulic industry standard for accumulators. (But you might add or drain air pressure a little for fine tuning.)

5- Inside the front planetary is what is called the "wedding band" bushing. When new, it fits smoothly and lets the shaft to slide in and out. If it is galled or deformed, it will grip the shaft and not allow the shaft to be withdrawn. (Even if you pulled it out, it might drop down and not let the shaft go back in again, as it is inserted when the transmission is set upright as you are building it.)

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks very much for your reply and sorry for all the questions... 

What would be the best way to remove the input shaft if this is the case?
I have started to disassemble and remove the valve body to get a better look at the internals and I guess it would be best to pop the oil pump out the front and then re-assess.

I think I understand the accumulator better now. As the fluid fills and compresses the air its pressure will rise from the initial 70 to the 140 line pressure where the accumulator will equalise and stop filling.
How quickly will this drop off once it is used to pressurise the trans?
I guess as per previous posts this will depend on how tight the trans is internally.
I am guessing you might only have a few seconds at this full pressure before it is dropping down past 100psi?
Roughly how often would you need to re-pressurise your accumulator with air?
Does it leak down after a few days or weeks?

I will definitely buy a V8 steel drum as I want to build this one strong from the start. Is there any advantage to going to the 10 clutch drums or is 5-6 sufficient?
Are the O-ring type dual seal servo pistons better than the ring style?

Would be great if you could write up a shopping list style post of what parts and configuration you would use/recommend for varying power levels for those of us that want to build a tough one, and those of us that will only ever street drive it.
Would you say your build would be good for 500hp as is?

The problem with EV's is that HP ratings are pretty much irrelevant and its the huge torque that the trans needs to withstand.

Thanks again for your help. Really appreciate all this great information.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

There are few EV motors that approach the torque of a 500HP V-8 with a 50LB flywheel, 12" slicks, a 3oooLB car and drop the clutch at 4000RPMs.
That is brute torque.

Having said that, there a few dedicated drag race EV's that do.

Remember, a torque converter multiplies the torque X 2. Meaning my Ford Lightning with 440 Ft/Lbs of torque is really 880 Ft/Lbs of torque and my
4R100 transmission is in the danger zone. (It is good for 1000 Ft/Lbs)

A powerglide with a torque converter, Kevlar low band and 10 high clutches that holds up under a 1000HP nitrous car is actually seeing a lot more torque. (And still lives)

I doubt if you will harm a properly assembled powerglide with no converter with any EV motor made today. (even if you had 18" wide slicks and a 3000 LB car.) Provided you maintain that 140 Lb pressure. 

A piston type accumulator will hold air pressure forever unless it is faulty or broken. Free air accumulators that use only an air cushion against the liquid will eventually have the air absorbed by the liquid and will need checked periodically. 

A dual seal piston is best, I like the square teflon rings. they seal best.

If you plan abuse, install all the clutches you can.

BTW, Use type "F" fluid. Dexron or Mercon are for luxury cars and allow clutches to slide some before engaging for an easy shift. F is old school brutal and will give clutches and bands a longer life and a much better grip.

Only you can choose your type of engagement, accumulator or pump.

I used a pump for a long while. Now I am trying an accumulator. It catches me off guard sometimes and slams into gear. My bad, but it happens, but not with a pump.......If I were racing, I would go pump every time......

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks for that.

I did know that torque convertors multiplied torque but never considered how much.

With that in mind I might just go for the V8 drum and 6 clutches for now rather than the 10 clutch drum as I think there are more mods required to run those.

I was planning on running one Warp 11" initially and they are rated at 320ft/lbs @ 1000A according to Ev Source.
In an email from George Hamstra from Netgain he said they produce 805ft/lbs at 2000A.
Thats around healthy big block territory but as you said, the box would see double that with a torque convertor so I should be ok.

If I ever add a second one I will re-assess and refresh the glide at that time.

Stripped a bit further tonight and took the IP shaft out with the high gear drum.
Came out fine once the whole assembly was out so I am not sure what was jamming it. I probably just didn't get the splines lined up to come through.
The wedding band seemed fine and came out easily.

This one only has 3 high gear clutches as you said... That won't get me far. 

Thanks for the info on the accumulator.
I guess my concern with the pump idea is not being able to supply full pressure as some were saying they could only get 100psi out of them.
I figured the accumulator would allow full line pressure and be safer for the band. 
Perhaps a combo of both would be ideal.
That way the pump should only run at first startup or if the accumulator bleeds off.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My ShruFlo pump was rated at 150PSI. 

The real problem with lower pressure pumps is that they are built for the lower pressure rating, but The transmission will pressure them up to 150PSI. unless you have a check valve to protect them. 

My Shure flo 150PSI rated pump finally developed a leak in the pressure switch seal. It was An $8.00 kit to re seal it. AND install a check valve......

Even after almost 4 years of use, the Sanoprene diaphragm is still fine.

Yes, on a drag race or High Performance powerglide, I would run an accumulator AND a 150PSI pump both. That would provide 100% gripping power for the low band. 

Drill the pick up tube at the site I show in this thread, suction hose to your pump, check valve after the pump.

Then the transmission pump tap port you drill -the accumulator and the hose after the check valve can be "Y"'d together. 

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks for that.
I will look up the Shurflo pumps.
I've read the thread again for about the third time now. 

With regards to the valve body, is it better to buy a full manual valve body or can you modify the standard one to achieve the same thing?

I noticed on another forum that you can put a piece of 1/4" tube in the 1 - 2 shift valve to hold it open and effectively make it full manual.

I don't want to have any other problems come up though that might damage the trans by trying to save a few bucks and it seems a bit dodgy to me.

I think the aftermarket valve body would be the way to go as the line pressure is probably a bit higher as well.

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Mike: You can get the same effect as a manual valve body by blocking the governor weights to stay open. You can either tack weld it or use wire to tie it open.

That way the transmission wants to stay in high gear and only go into low when the selector is placed into low. 

The vacuum modulator stays in the high throttle position because it has no vacuum to it. It thinks it is ready to shift to high gear. (In high pressure mode)

As for the pressure difference, Yes a manual valve body is blocked to provide absolute highest pressure the pump can give with the what ever spring is installed. (Probably around 140PSI)

We used to do it all the time to make cheap circle track transmissions. 

When going to the short tail shaft, you will lose the governor and the speedometer drive gears. So a manual valve body was necessary.

The short tail shaft was done because it was stronger than the long one. Somewhere around 800HP or so and big slicks tend to twist the longer shaft.

Plus a manual valve body will also eliminate a lot of other things. As will the drive coupler. The convertor drain back check valve, The shift modulator, the shift softening valve and the stator support tube are no longer necessary as well.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks for that. Wow you are up early!

Yeah I was planning on leaving the speedo drive and governor off, and changing the governor support plate for the alloy one with the roller bearing.

Haven't decided on the shorty or standard shaft yet but I must say I was surprised to see a huge hole in the output shaft for the governor pin.
That would weaken the shaft but I guess it was necessary and suitable for the OEM power levels at the time.

Glad you mentioned the stator support tube.
I read in one of your earlier posts that it can be removed.
Does it press out or do you need to cut it off?
I haven't broken down the pump yet to have a closer look.

I managed to get the speedo drive gear off by making some longer rods for my puller and some heat. Now need to make the special tool for compressing the clutch pack springs.

Sorry for all the questions. I will buy the PowerGlide handbook soon. 

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you had a metal speedo gear....my! that IS an early one. We used to just smack the gear with a hammer and it would stretch and fall off.LOL

Be aware that the short shaft kit is expensive. Some of the early shafts were a big enough diameter so they could be shortened and new splines cut to use the old parts to do a short glide. Measure yours to be sure.

The stator tube is pressed in and can be pressed out or cut off, your choice.
Some stator tubes had an inner bushing to stabilize the inner shaft, but very few as it is not needed and deleted in later models.

Be sure to remove the pressed-in converter Anti-drain back valve, it is not necessary any more. It is on the pump casting.

Lastly, keep the cooler circuit as it drains back into the planetaries and is their only source of cooling and lube.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah this one is out of a HR Holden which was released around 66.
I think they would have just been brought in complete rather than manufactured locally. It says made in Canada on the side.
Couldn't find any rear pump gears inside the governor support plate though...
Guess they could have been removed in a previous rebuild.

Will definitely leave the cooler circuit in place, I have seen that mentioned a few times. 

When you said that your box is really loud in first, it looks like you are running a helical gear set so I would like to stick to that if I buy a new set as it will only get worse with a straight cut set.

Is the stamped steel carrier a big problem or ok for now?
Can you just buy a new machined carrier and re-use the standard gears or is it better to buy a whole set?

Realistically I probably won't gain much by going to a short shaft as I don't think I can stuff the box any further down the tunnel due to the size of the case so I'll only end up with a longer drive shaft.

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The 1.82 gear set and stamped case is good for 500HP. So, yea your good.

All planetaries whine, mine was LOUD because it came out of a dirt roundy round car with 4 seasons on it (They ran in low gear so as not to have to buy a rear axle gear set). I have replaced it with another 1.82 planetary set and is a lot quieter, but it still has that familiar low gear whine that you do not hear wiht an ICE is running.

The gears can be replaced, but new gears are more expensive that a good used set.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

That's good to hear Miz, thanks.
Will stay with standard gears and long shaft for now then.

I am thinking I need to make (or have made) and new short input shaft with a 32 tooth spline on the input end so that I can run a 32 tooth coupler between the PG and the Netgain 11" transwarp shaft.

I was thinking of wire cutting the pump drive slots into the coupler which could be made from a standard TH400 yoke, and should fit once the stator support tube is removed.

I am also thinking I need some sort of bearing surface (bush or roller) inside the pump housing to support the shaft like the turbo style input shafts but not sure there will be enough length for that. 

The pics aren't to scale yet as I haven't taken any measurements. Just concept at the moment.

Any thoughts?
Does anyone know if there is a similar item available already?

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That looks good. I think EV West uses something similar to it.

On their web site is a video of a double motor and powerglide you might look at.

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/image...-drive-transmission-for-ev-motors-evglide.jpg


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah I did look at that one.
Not sure if it is spline to spline coupled or welded to a standard shaft.

Either way, when I asked them if they sell it separately they said $1288...
With our exchange rate that's $1840. 

Not sure I like the idea of welding a coupler to the standard shaft as you are likely to destroy any heat treat that was done to the shaft and make it of unknown strength.

Mike


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

Mike, your coupler and input shaft look great and are the way to go. Make it from hard steel like Vasco, as the OEM input shaft will twist under big DC motor torque.

If you are planning to drag race your car, especially with two Warp motors, you will need to increase strength in much of the transmission or things will break. 

A high gear 10 clutch set with billet hub and drum, high pressure adjustable valve body, kevlar bands, dual ring servo, and straight cut low gear have all gone into my glide. This is because on separate occasions, the OEM 6 pack of clutches welded themselves together, the OEM high clutch hub exploded, and the OEM input shaft twisted.

I'm having a Vasco shaft machined based on the larger TH400 diameter shaft and with a spline coupling just like your images. It is out being heat hardened at the moment. The pump bore needs to be increased to accommodate the larger shaft.

I'm setting up the accumulator in my car and will continue to use the external pump as well. I'm going to use the falling-edge triggered switch and check valve to control release of the accumulator, but also going to put an override momentary-on switch on the dashboard. I'm concerned that the accumulator may discharge too quickly and not have that max pressure for the launch. The burnout will pressurize the accumulator, and the override will hold it there until I release the brake after completing staging.

Wayne




mikejh said:


> That's good to hear Miz, thanks.
> Will stay with standard gears and long shaft for now then.
> 
> I am thinking I need to make (or have made) and new short input shaft with a 32 tooth spline on the input end so that I can run a 32 tooth coupler between the PG and the Netgain 11" transwarp shaft.
> ...


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Wayne,

Thanks for that info.

I was planning to use at least 300M but possibly Vasco.

Are you running the 32 tooth TH400 spline or the input shaft 30 spline?
Are you planning on running a bearing surface inside the pump to support it?
Short shaft like mine or full length?

I was thinking about what to do with the high clutches but wondered if I would be ok initially with one Warp motor just running 6 clutches.
I am worried about the standard case strength and figured if I needed 10 clutches then I probably need to go to a Reid case as well. This was going to be stage 2 if I add a second motor.

Also worried about the straight cut gears as I would like to be able to street drive it mostly and run at the street drags as well.
I had a straight cut manual box in a loud ICE car for a while and not sure I want to go there again.

Definitely planning both accumulator and pump.

What motor/s are you running?

Can you modify the standard valve body for higher pressure and manual or is it better to buy a new one?

Thanks.

Mike


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## ev99saturn (May 5, 2009)

Its the 30 tooth spline on a short input shaft. My tail housing is also shortened a lot, so the output shaft is only 6" long from the base of the planetary.

You can put a 10 clutch pack in a stock pg, you just need the right hub and drum for that many and it will drop in place. Go with the Alto clutches and Kolene steels.

I got Hughes straight cut gears, and even in the quiet electric drive, they don't make any noticeable sound compared to the OEM low gears.

I'm running a single 11" GE motor that was custom built for drag racing by Dennis Berube. It replaced an 11" Warp HV that I went with originally. The Warp is a powerhouse for sure, but the Berube GE is in a league of it's own when it comes to torque and will lift the front tires off the ground on a hard launch. I still haven't turned it up to full power yet.

Don't know about converting a valve body. I'm really a transmission dummy except for the stuff that I have had to do to beef up my powerglide. The adjustable valve body was not too expensive, but it was key for making enough pressure.

I think the OEM valve body makes around 140-150 psi (some one correct me please). Lack of sufficient pressure was the cause of welding the high clutches together under a full throttle shift to high at about 30 mph.

The adjustable valve body is set at 185 psi, but will go way higher. I'm not sure yet if I will need to increase it, but might need to go to 220. I spoke with a powerglide/dragster expert this summer at a drag strip and he said 220, but the company making the Vasco custom input shaft thinks 185 ought to be enough. Next season will tell. 

With the higher pressure, 10 clutches and dual ring servo, the shift to high is instant and rock solid, no slipping, and it slams you back into the seat again.

Another key to performance is to go with as low of a numerical gear ratio as you can get for the rear end. I started out with a 4.10, big mistake. I changed it to a 2.73 and got 1.5 seconds quicker 1/8 mile at 15 mph more, and 0.37 seconds quicker 60' at 1.51 sec. I found a 2.47 gear from an '94 F150 that is going in next..... still searching for a 2.26 that was used in a few vehicles.

What are you building for a vehicle?

Wayne



mikejh said:


> Hi Wayne,
> 
> Thanks for that info.
> 
> ...


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Wayne

Thanks very much for that information.
Sorry for the late reply... on vacation in Hawaii at the moment. 

Based on your experience it sounds like I need the aftermarket high pressure valve body then to protect the clutches.

The car I was planning to use initially is an Australian Ford XF Fairmont Ghia mainly because my old one is sitting around with no engine and gearbox at the moment and is probably similar to a Mustang, although slightly larger and heavier. 3264lbs with a heavy 250 crossflow 6 cylinder as standard.

It has a 2.77 4 pinion LSD as standard which I thought would be no good, but based on your advice I might try it out. It's only about an 8.5" diff so might break but we'll see. If it does then 9" it is... 
I guess with that high ratio you are forcing the motor to draw more current and make more torque which makes sense.... if the batteries can supply it.

How does your GE motor couple to the new shaft? Is it splined or keyed?

Thanks,

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

"With the higher pressure, 10 clutches and dual ring servo, the shift to high is instant and rock solid, no slipping, and it slams you back into the seat again."

-The dual ring servo piston is for low gear only and is released in high gear.



"Another key to performance is to go with as low of a numerical gear ratio as you can get for the rear end."

When racing, the rear gear is set by rear tire size and torque band of the motor. The 11" motors have a very low top RPM and a very low torque curve and can use a short 2.xx:1 ratio and short tire in order to keep within the torque band. But tall tires are usually used as they have a bigger foot print (Traction patch", then you use what ever ratio complements your motor. Example: My car has 6.14 gears because it has 32" tall tires and the motor will RPM up to 7,000 easily.



Just my opinion, but I would build a decent powerglide within limits for the single motor and in time build the killer (expensive) transmission for the dual motor installation.


With the 1.82 gear set, it is not the gears that will fail first, the stamped carrier is weakest. When going to the expensive straight cut gears you will need the good carrier to go with them. 

In contrast to an ICE (that makes a lot of noise) anything in an EV will sound noisy. The standard planetary gears make a good deal of noise and I usually do not drive in low very far, but shift as soon as possible to high.

In a racecar, who cares about noise,,,,LOL

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree. I think I will build the trans with 6 clutches initially and as you said, build the killer box later. (Providing I can get six clutches in the drum. Haven't measured it yet. Being a 6 cylinder one it could be the short drum).

Any "good" bits that I put in the first box should be able to be used in the later build if they are still ok.
I'm just thinking if I went to a Reid case eventually then I could swap everything over while adding better gears and bigger drum/hub etc. 

This one is the development box for the new input shaft anyway.

Finally got my "Powerglide Transmission Handbook" today so I will read that before I go any further. 

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Thx, that was a short-but-sweet synopsis. 

Also: from the start to 1963 they also had a rear pump unit that was powered by the driveshaft (output shaft) so the motors could be push-started.

That feature was dropped in 1964 deemed as unnecessary and was a cost cutting measure. 


It may have shared names, but the early (cast iron) and later (aluminum) Powerglides were two different transmissions and are generally not used in performance applications. 




Miz


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That was spam copied from other sources. Reported.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> That was spam copied from other sources. Reported.


I think I am a little bit slow. I dont see anything. Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Guys,

Been considering using one of the direct drive couplers instead of making a new input shaft in order to keep it simple.

For those that have experience with these, are they designed for the standard input shaft or are there ones available for the turbo style input shaft.

I have looked at a few like the Winters, TCI and Coan racing and none of them specify what shaft they suit.

Also, what is the difference between the pre 85 and post 85 crank flanges that they specify?

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

That whole "Pre/Post '85 deal just means old type 305-400 engine or one of 
the LS engines. The LS types have a smaller bolt flange and circle.

Speedway Motors has the cheapest ones I have found:

SHAFT- http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Winters-Performance-5419-Powerglide-Drive-Flange-Sleeve,5440.html

Old flange- http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Winte...ide-Drive-Flange-2-Piece-Rear-Seal,28985.html

NEW flange- http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Winte...glide-Drive-Flange-for-Chevy-Crate,49588.html


Dont worry about a T400 spline. The Powerglide spline takes a 3000Lb car, 
14" slicks and a big V8 engine to twist off.....

Plus even if you use the T400 size shaft, it still has the powerglide inner spline. 
The T400 converter shaft allowed a larger selection of better converters....thats all.

My adapter was for a Chevy V6 engine. They used the late style flange. So, I needed the late flange to make it all bolt up. And the hard to find locally....7/16" NFT allen cap screws because the flange was so small.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Miz,

Thanks very much for that.

Perhaps I should go for the earlier one then so the bolts are on a larger circle giving more options for the hub design, and no special bolts as you found.

Does that 7th hole cause any balance problems?

Going by a google images search it looks like the 7th hole is used as a locating/alignment pin and it would be wise to implement that on the motor hub as well. Once the hole is filled by the pin there shouldn't be any balance issues.

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Ive not seen pins in a chevy, only the holes. 

It might be there to index manufacturing machinery. 

But, yes run a pin. All the better.

The old chevy flywheel bolts are easy to find. 

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Back in post 203, I showed how to turn a small hydraulic cylinder into an accumulator. I then removed the electric valve to run it open at all times.

Now, I have tried something different. I drained the air pre-charge and installed a spring. I also left the valve core removed.

The car is easy to drive and if you use the right spring to match your car's weight, it will take off smoothly with no problems at all. (Plus the added benefit of allowing a tire spinning, screeching maniac take-off when needed.....You only need to floor the throttle.)

Miz


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

I finally got tired of changing springs because I could not get the perfect balance. I could drive the car, but anyone else would be freaked out and not enjoy the experience.

So I removed the cylinder/accumulator and installed an inline fuel pump, check valve and pressure switch. About $60USD total.

The inline pump was 80PSI and 1.5 GPM. DO not go any smaller or it will not work. I would like a 2 GPM model better. The 60-80 PSI is fine. The pressure switch is a 30Amp model with 1/4" NPT.

The power wire goes to the pressure switch (which is closed at zero PSI) 
and goes from the switch to the pump + terminal. I used a SS braided hose, so it needed no ground wire.

When the key is turned, the pump starts running. When you go from park to any gear, the clutches/bands will remove all of the slack and just touch the drum. When you apply throttle, the drum begins spinning, but due to the huge transmission internal pump, it grabs immediately with almost no slipping. Giving a smooth take off. NOTE: I would use a Kevlar low band and nothing else!

My transmission internal pump supports 140PSI. As the pressure increases in the external hose, the check valve closes and the pressure switch opens, stopping the external inline pump. As long as the transmission internal pump applys pressure, the external inline pump stays off.

When the car comes to a stop, the internal transmission pressure drops. When the check valve opens, the pressure switch closes starting the external inline pump.

Thats pretty much it. Almost any pump that is 12Vdc, 2 Gpm and 60-80 PSI will work as long as the switch is on the transmission side of the check valve.

Miz


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## 59Morris (Feb 26, 2017)

Miz, many thanks for all the time and effort you have put into this forum.
I built my first EV using the AC51 motor, and decided to go direct drive. The result is acceptable, but a Powerglide seems a perfect solution to gaining a little better low speed performance on my next EV build. Since the motor can already perform the reverse function, I'm curious if I can simply leave the reverse clutches out of my Powerglide while I'm rebuilding it? If, so would it reduce friction whilst in forward gears? Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If I remember correctly, I left out some reverse clutches and used 3 in this build. It cuts down a little on weight and rotational friction. The result is not apparent by "the seat of the pants" feel.

You must use reverse because when you turn an automatic transmission input shaft backwards, the front pump -pumps in reverse, trying to pull oil from the valve body and put it back in the pan thru the filter.....
no pressure oiling, no thru put as the low band is still unclamped. 

You could install a "Push start" kit, where you engage the low band with a lever using your right arrm and about 50Lb worth of pressure, but you still have the front pump turning backwards to deal with.

It is just better to wire it in forward to begin with and leave it there.

Miz


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## 59Morris (Feb 26, 2017)

Thanks, I hadn't even considered that. Seems so obvious now.


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hmm...

Bought a direct drive adapter from Speedway motors. Awesome looking unit.

Tried my input shaft in it and it wouldn't go in?

Counted the splines inside the adapter - 17.
Counted the splines on my input shaft - 22. What the?

Anyone ever seen that? I thought there were only 17 and 30.

Must be my dodgy Australian 6 cylinder box.
Trust us to do something different...

Looks like I need to order a new input shaft... Oh well, good reason to buy a good 4340 or Vasco one. 

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The spline count on the newer ones was changed.

One question: is your shifter shaft come out the right side of the case?

You will probably find your transmission is upside down too.....


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Ha Ha, yeah could be upside down... 

Yeah, shift linkage is on the right as you look at the bellhousing.

It looks otherwise stock Powerglide but Holden/GM Australia must have done some changes to suit the local market I guess.

The car it came out of was a 64 model so not exactly a new one.
As you said previously the early ones should have had a rear pump too but this one doesn't. Guess it could have been left out on a previous rebuild.

Not to worry, I was concerned about the standard input shaft anyway.
I can get a TCI 300M shaft locally for $245AU. Are they ok?

Seems like the 1.82 carrier limits your choices of stock Powerglide spline shafts. All the high end ones seem to be Turbo splines.

Thanks.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The rear pump was used until they ran out of parts and cars were built up to where push starting ruined the bumpers. So no one did it any more.
They stopped installing them around 1964. 

Look on the right side of the case. (your drivers side)
near the rear bearing area, near the joint of the main case and the tail housing, half way up on the side. There is a pressure test port, or not? If there is one, it had a rear pump when built. 









Ya, most did away with them when overhauled unless it was a dirt track car that used push starting a lot.

The expensive alloy input shafts are for drag racing, and they usually were a t400 converter size, which was larger than a stock powerglide. Neither does an EV need. Get a factory input that has the coupler spline. You will not break it in an EV.

An EV uses the 1.82 low gear best. I really like it in my car. It gives me an 11.17 final drive when coupled with my 6.14 axle gear. My motor does 7,000 RPM easily so I do 70 MPH in low gear.......


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks Miz,

Yeah has the pressure port for the rear pump.

As these haven't been used in Australian cars for about 40 years I'm thinking the aftermarket shafts are easier to come by, but I'll see how I go.

Thanks.

Mike


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## TheAppliance (Jul 27, 2017)

Hi all,
I've read this thread a number of times as I am planning on doing the same conversion.
Like MikeJH I am based in Australia (central Vic - Mike where are you?) and have got virtually the same 6 cyl Powerglide unit - Canadian made with the 22 spline input shaft, but no rear pump on mine. Looks like a '68 according to serial number.
I was originally dreaming of getting rid of the bellhousing (which is broken anyway) and close-coupling the motor, but the more i look at it the more i'm leaning towards using the direct-drive coupler and getting some sort of hub made to fit the motor shaft and bolt to the coupler flange.

Another mod that crossed my mind was getting rid of the internal pump completely and only using an external pump. Theoretically this would reduce mechanical drag in the system but would also reduce range.
Would the transmission work properly with a narrow pressure band or does it require the higher pressure of a fast running mechanical pump to maintain friction at higher loads?
Also, would a constantly running pump drive me insane?

This thread is an awesome resource. Thnks Miz and all contributors.

Richard


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The electric pump is louder than you think because an EV is so quiet.
It is noticable when it turns off.

The internal pump is easy to turn, so not much HP would be gained. (My opinion)

My manual shift transmission required 140PSI to fully clamp for a big V* engine and 3,500LB car. For a lighter EV may be 80-100PSI to get a good clamp. The low band is not so bad, but the high clutches take the most pressure due to the small piston area.

Miz


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## mikejh (Nov 20, 2008)

Hi Richard,

I am in Perth.

My plan was to make a replacement for the bellhousing but more suited to the diameter of the motor and gearbox.
I bought a Transwarp 9 motor because I like the splined shaft. Never liked the idea of a short shaft relying on a key to drive all that torque and the possibility of the whole assembly coming loose and destroying the shaft.
All that means I need to get a special internally splined adapter made to couple to the direct drive adapter and probably add a heap of length to the whole thing.
I don't want to cut the shaft short in case I ever decide to go multi motor and direct drive.

Still have to stop myself from buying a Reid case. 
Just need to get it going as is with a rebuild of the standard unit, and go all out later. The Reid case is nice though as it uses a separate mounting flange for the bellhousing, instead of the pump bolts like our 6 cylinder units.
Being SFI approved there's also the safety factor in case a stock clutch hub or drum grenades. 
Might replace those with new steel ones and use a scatter shield...

VPW have TCI input shafts for $244AUD but I think it might be cheaper to buy the same one from Summit even with conversion and shipping.?

Like Miz said I would stay with the internal pump.
I would think the mechanical drag from the pump would be much better than the electrical load the pump will put on your low voltage system.
Not sure how much they draw, but there's no free lunch, and at low voltage the amps are probably high.

Mike


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My first pump died. The plastic diaphragm blew out, so I wanted to try something else.

Others said that only 50 lbs pressure would operate the low band.
.....Wrong, I tried a 50PSI inline fuel pump and I get a small bump as I pick up the throttle. So, I am sourcing out an 80PSI inline fuel pump to try.

I am just looking at cost and noise. The first pump was distracting at a stop.
The 50PSI pump makes no noise. So still looking for the perfect pump.

Look at Ivan's coupler and adapter to his 4L80 transmission.
http://ivanbennett.com/ev-images/motor107.jpg

This page shows the setps how he did it all.
http://ivanbennett.com/ev-trans.html

But buying the stuff already made is best. Here is where I got mine.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Winters-Performance-5419-Powerglide-Drive-Flange-Sleeve,5440.html

If you do not want to weld on a splined motor coupler:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Winte...ide-Drive-Flange-2-Piece-Rear-Seal,28985.html

But seriously, I would weld them together.
If you wanted it shorter.....
You need to cut off the stator support tube from the front pump as it is not needed any more, then shorten the splined drive 
tube and re cut two pump drive notches. Then cut off the small inner drive shaft and have it resplined. (Or weld it too like Ivan did)

That would make the whole thing maybe 5" shorter.

Ask any decent transmission shop their ideas. Most of them are glad to help!


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Miz, 

I have read the entire thread (all five years of it) today and tried copying the pictures and your advice (including how to rebuild "Good" and "Used" transmissions) into a word document that will allow for easier re-reading.

I wanted to thank you for posting all of your experiences and pictures, and for answering the various questions as detailed as you can.
I was following the whole "Pump vs Accumulator" conversation with interest, and was waiting for more information from EV West (I copied their input, too).

I have built an Electric El Camino (1968) and was using Fwd/Rev contactors and direct drive for the first 2700 miles. I even took it to the drag strip a few times (didn't get any decent passes at full power due to a variety of conditions that were beyond my control).
I finally blew out the fwd/rev contactor after creeping slowly up a long driveway and trying to accellerate hard immediately afterwards. Boom. 

I am leaning towards a PowerGlide (as I had originally planned) once again, but am worried about reliability once it is together.


Which do you think would be more reliable and less maintenance-intensive? Pump or Accumulator?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

- Jamieson


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Update:
I have acquired a PowerGlide transmission for $100 and I plan to clean it up, tear it down and rebuild it for my dual Warp 9 motor conversion.
The best pump I have found after about a half hour of research (and several dead ends & mistakes) is one similar to the one you mentioned (no surprise there, since I used yours as a search term).








Shurflo 8000 Series High Pressure Pump, 1.8 GPM, 100 PSI

https://www.spraysmarter.com/pmp-12v-100psi-1-8g-p-v-s.html#

Shurflo part number 8000-543-238
Features:
Max Flow Rate: 1.8 GPM
Max Pressure: 100 PSI
Ability to run dry with no harm to pump
Includes built-in check valve
Pressure rating: 20-100 PSI
Self Priming to 8 Feet

($89.99 plus shipping)

Now to find an RPM switch.
I am thinking of this one from Summit for $51.99:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-830452-1/overview/

It comes with a digital readout, too.










- Jamieson


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## Vhclbldr (Feb 8, 2014)

Upon reflection, I may just use an accumulator and add a pressure-controlled switch on the air side of the accumulator. Might end up being an easier and more reliable operation.
Any thoughts, anyone?

- Jamieson


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## tinstaafl (Oct 29, 2020)

Hello, I am the original poster who started this thread. Over the interval, I lost my name and changed emails twice, so it was easier to start a new account. 
After 5 years, I needed to get rid of all my extra rolling stock and keep one. I sold the little green roadster to keep the 1999 F150 Lightning I bought new. I still help people and am an advocate of EV's so I am still in the community. You can reach me through my screen name mail here. Thanks Tinstaafl (The former mizlplix)


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Hello Mr mizlplix


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## tinstaafl (Oct 29, 2020)

Hey, Ivan. Thought you would be speaking Swahili by now?


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Hallelujah, two of my favorites have resurrected from the past.

Welcome back miz.


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## tinstaafl (Oct 29, 2020)

Hello everyone! Just dropped in to say hello . Lost my old mizlplix account and now I am tinstaafl.
I am back to watching this post so you can ask questions again. Thanks to all who have posted.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

What happened to your Miz account?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ivansgarage said:


> What happened to your Miz account?





tinstaafl said:


> Hello, I am the original poster who started this thread. Over the interval, I lost my name and changed emails twice, so it was easier to start a new account.
> After 5 years, I needed to get rid of all my extra rolling stock and keep one. I sold the little green roadster to keep the 1999 F150 Lightning I bought new. I still help people and am an advocate of EV's so I am still in the community. You can reach me through my screen name mail here. Thanks Tinstaafl (The former mizlplix)


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## tinstaafl (Oct 29, 2020)

lost it back when the new owners took over, seems I didn't have the old email address and couldn't prove it was mine.
Hi Ivan! call me sometime.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Hi Dean I will call ya during the week...


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## Mack the nife (5 mo ago)

Always wonde why people used a power glide trans when the TH400 is so much better .Very simple to rebuild and just mate it the motor shaft with a flex plate and torque converter , it works like it should with a gas engine running it , we have been doing the for about 25 years


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

They direct drive the input shaft with the motor which leads to lower drivetrain losses.

What do you do for bearings when hanging the torque converter on the flexplate? Most motor bearings can't handle that much cantilevered weight.


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## tinstaafl (Oct 29, 2020)

Mack the nife said:


> Always wonde why people used a power glide trans when the TH400 is so much better .Very simple to rebuild and just mate it the motor shaft with a flex plate and torque converter , it works like it should with a gas engine running it , we have been doing the for about 25 years





Mack the nife said:


> Always wonde why people used a power glide trans when the TH400 is so much better .Very simple to rebuild and just mate it the motor shaft with a flex plate and torque converter , it works like it should with a gas engine running it , we have been doing the for about 25 years


1- Lower friction overall. 2- lower weight. 3-In top gear, it is direct drive, no gears turning, 4- Cheap in price. 5-Cheaper to rebuild. 6-Needs less space. 7- The electric motor has a really flat torque curve, so you can get away with two gears.


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## Mack the nife (5 mo ago)

Never had or had reported any shaft bearing ware .actually never gave it any thought ,when I start a shaft coupler to the torque converter the lathe centers are always checked for ZERO runout . After the coupler is made . It's checked for ZERO runout again on the motor shaft . it has a pocket for the converter nose button which sits in tight , but not pound it in tight , again ,shaft runout Is ZERO . when you look up crank shaft run out on about 90% are at ,.005 to .008 run out .
Ours at the converter is Zero .Even the best auto trans rebuild is sloppy inside so , trying to over come some one else's doings we try and get the closest tolerances we can ... P.S . I always liked the TH400 , even tried a number of torqufligts 727 trans , dirt simple yes and easy yes , but to long of a tail shaft .But they are Hemi hard . Cooling is simple also ,, we use a cars AC condenser to cool the trans , it works perfect .
500% better that a radiator hot water cooler , and heat is the distroyer of all auto trans 
We don't spend a lot of time on engineering scratch your head work , we just build what works


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