# Nissan Electric Taxis In Japan Showing Performance Degradation



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Battery range has degraded by as much as half in some taxis, which is also impacting fast charging, turing a 15-minute operating into a 40 minute one, forcing drivers to sometimes refuse longer fare rides.

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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The article gives a link to an interesting report from Plug in America:
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/Leaf-Battery-Survey.pdf

The survey of Leaf owners indicates that operation in high ambient temperatures is the main (negative) effect for battery life, and the small amount of data on fast charging indicates it has little effect.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Pretty worthless article without the important data. So after two years they've lost 50% capacity. How many miles and cycles have the batteries put on in those 2 years? A taxi better be putting in more than the rated 12.5k miles/year.

Let's say a taxi averages 15 mph for a 10 hour shift. That's 150 miles per day (should be easy with one quickcharge at lunch) and 55,000 miles per year. in two years that's 110,000 miles, or nearly 9 years of rated use. And the battery's still at half capacity? That's pretty good!

That's assuming a single driver. If you use one taxi to cover 2 shifts then double the numbers.

The pluginamerica article has much better stats, but not enough to make any conclusions about fast charging. When your scale goes up to 60 and the recommended usage is 365/year saying it has no effect is just ill-informed.

Show me a taxi using quickcharge 3 times a day vs one using it once or not at all and compare capacity after 100,000 miles.

Oh yeah, and the whiny cabbies have saved $20,000 (assuming the above numbers, could be less, could be double) buying electricity instead of gas. Stop whining and go buy a new battery.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

IIRC, wasn't Nissan expecting the Leaf to have 80% capacity remaining after 10 years of use?


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> ...Let's say a taxi averages 15 mph for a 10 hour shift. That's 150 miles per day (should be easy with one quickcharge at lunch)


 Any EV that can run a 10 hour shift of stop start taxi work with only one recharge, would be quite impressive.
2 or more recharges would be my bet.
Maybe not high kms, but a lot of stop starts will kill the range.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

BS. 

I have been driving mine daily for 1 1/2 years and today I got 72 miles. Started out at 38 degrees outside in the morning and 58 in the afternoon. Same daily drive and at 57 mph both directions. I currently have 21600 miles on the car. I drive it a lot.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I charge to 100% every time I charge. Been doing this from day one.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> BS.
> 
> I have been driving mine daily for 1 1/2 years and today I got 72 miles. Started out at 38 degrees outside in the morning and 58 in the afternoon. Same daily drive and at 57 mph both directions. I currently have 21600 miles on the car. I drive it a lot.


 "daily drive and at 57mph " ..suggests you are not in stop-start city /taxi type drive mode.
how many times per hour do you think a Taxi has to stop for lights, pick ups/ drops, junctions, traffic back ups etc etc,.. in a city like Osaka ?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Correct. I drive the freeway and some stop start. Hows that supposed to affect the battery? Stop start is going to shorten the drive. You really don't get much back from Regen. Stop starting sucks amps so you just need to charge sooner. Can't see that hurting the batteries vs freeway driving.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Im still calling it BULL. I drive one.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Im still calling it BULL. I drive one.


 Nothing you've said contradicts the survey.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Batteries only giving 30 miles? How absurd. I live in a high heat summer environment and have never seen the battery temps in any dangerous zone at all. You do know that there is a temp meter for the battery pack. If the batteries were that bad Nissan would have to replace them under warranty. No way can that be within normal specs. 

This is BULL.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

So where in Japan does it get hot enough to overheat the batteries? There is no information at all about the causes. Only a mention that heat is still the problem but nothing to support that claim. 

Like I said, I drive and live in a very hot environment. I see no real changes in my distances. On top of that when at work in the summer the car is out in the heat. No protection what so ever. 

BS meter is on high


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> Any EV that can run a 10 hour shift of stop start taxi work with only one recharge, would be quite impressive.
> 2 or more recharges would be my bet.
> Maybe not high kms, but a lot of stop starts will kill the range.


Of course. I was just being generous trying to downplay the usage. It could be the usage is much higher and they've put 2-3 decades worth of use on these cars already.




onegreenev said:


> Im still calling it BULL. I drive one.


Really? You drive a taxi?

Don't be stupid, your experience is irrelevant to a study about how taxi use wears batteries.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Of course. I was just being generous trying to downplay the usage. It cculd be the usage is much higher and they've put 2-3 decades worth of use on these cars already.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Experience is totally relevant. You don't drive a Leaf. I do. You have no clue and no say. You don't get an opinion on this one. I am quite sure I drive as much or more than a Taxi. I drive it hard and I drive it daily. I know exactly what is going on. I live in high heat and the largest BS meter on this is nothing to support the claim. 

Boom


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> "daily drive and at 57mph " ..suggests you are not in stop-start city /taxi type drive mode.
> how many times per hour do you think a Taxi has to stop for lights, pick ups/ drops, junctions, traffic back ups etc etc,.. in a city like Osaka ?


 Starting doesn't use all that much energy. It takes about 45 Wh plus losses, so maybe 65Wh, to accelerate my car from 0 to 35 mph. It uses about 180 Wh/mile maintaining that speed, or 65 Wh in about 0.36 mile. It gets around 50% of that 65 Wh back into the batteries during stopping with regen (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=280765&postcount=14). So if you drive 10 miles and stop 10 times, you lose a net 650/2 = 325 kWh due to accelerating, and roughly (assuming a total of 7 miles at 35 mph between stops) 1.26 kWh due to cruising at 35 mph. So accelerating is about 21% of the total energy use.

It takes about 130 Wh plus losses, so around 185 Wh, to accelerate my car to 60 mph. It uses about 250Wh/mile to maintain 60 mph on level ground, or 130 Wh about every 0.52 mile.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> You have no clue and no say. You don't get an opinion on this one. I am quite sure I drive as much or more than a Taxi.
> 
> Boom


Ok Mr. Taxi Driver.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

After reading both article links the BS meter is on high alert. I liked the study from pluginamerica. Good information but nothing that would support the claims of the Taxi's in Japan. There was a post that had lots of subjective nonsense. That kind of shit is what we don't need.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Ok Mr. Taxi Driver.


Made and awful lot of assumptions in post number three. BS. I suppose you are a taxi driver then, Right


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> Batteries only giving 30 miles? How absurd. I live in a high heat summer environment and have never seen the battery temps in any dangerous zone at all. You do know that there is a temp meter for the battery pack. If the batteries were that bad Nissan would have to replace them under warranty. No way can that be within normal specs.
> 
> This is BULL.


 Phoenix is much hotter than where you live. I didn't see it said that Nissan will not replace the batteries in the taxis with low range. It did say they needed them to run for a couple years to collect data, so they will not replace them before the test period is over. The report said that most of the cars in the survey hadn't lost even one bar, and many drivers reported noticing no difference in range. Overall it looked good. I'd bet if you took a survey of diy cars from this site you would get similar variability in the distribution. Some will have killed their cells and most will have noticed no difference after a couple years. I don't think the report is surprising. I think it is surprising that you expect every car to behave exactly as yours, no matter how use varies, and of the thousands of cells collectively in those cars, none would develop a defect.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> After reading both article links the BS meter is on high alert. I liked the study from pluginamerica. Good information but nothing that would support the claims of the Taxi's in Japan. There was a post that had lots of subjective nonsense. That kind of shit is what we don't need.


 As opposed to your highly factual responses?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Nope, Mr Taxi driver. I just made one guess since the article didn't provide useful info and did some basic math from there. 

I'm sure you can refute the entire study though with the hundreds of thousands of miles on your leaf with no battery degradation.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

My car in the summer routinely sits in 115 degree black top daily. I'd say its hot enough to do some damage if the heat was the issue. Do you really need to see my temp meter on the super hot days? I'll get them for you. Digging through hours of video will be slow so I will wait until it is hot once again. No Nissan never said they would not but then why do such an article to discredit the car or company? 

This is total bull shit and you know it. Too many of you keep following this kind of crap and then get all hot headed when someone calls the BLUFF. 

I am calling the BLUFF again. 

Math based on what? Nothing actually. Just more bull shit added to the bull shit. Such Drama.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

tomofreno said:


> Phoenix is much hotter than where you live. I didn't see it said that Nissan will not replace the batteries in the taxis with low range. It did say they needed them to run for a couple years to collect data, so they will not replace them before the test period is over. The report said that most of the cars in the survey hadn't lost even one bar, and many drivers reported noticing no difference in range. Overall it looked good. I'd bet if you took a survey of diy cars from this site you would get similar variability in the distribution. Some will have killed their cells and most will have noticed no difference after a couple years. I don't think the report is surprising. I think it is surprising that you expect every car to behave exactly as yours, no matter how use varies, and of the thousands of cells collectively in those cars, none would develop a defect.


Im not talking about the pluginamerica article. I am commenting on the Taxi crap.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Math based on what? Nothing actually. Just more bull shit added to the bull shit. Such Drama.


Based on the fact that a taxi spends far more time on the road in a day than a drama queen like you.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You really want to go there?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> You really want to go there?


Nah, I hear you're a crappy cab driver anyway. I'll get a pro.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> Correct.. Stop starting sucks amps so you just need to charge sooner. Can't see that hurting the batteries vs freeway driving.


 As i said, those taxis probably need to recharge 2,3 or more times in a shift and if they run them 24/7 (?) then you could be looking at 6 or more charge cycles,... with heavy discharge,.. in a day !...1500+ cycles a year !!

Its good research data for Nissan, but not really what the Leaf was intended for, so any results they get are not likely to be replicated in "normal" use.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The average taxi trip in the U.S., as reported by Schaller Consulting in January of 2006, was 5 miles, with a waiting time of 5 minutes. Schaller also reports that in 2005, 39 percent of a New York taxi's total mileage was spent cruising the streets for passengers.

Granted that a Taxi would put on a respectable distance in a year but to the point of only getting 30 miles? The article is a BS fear article.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I'd love to have a Leaf to test the fast charge issue. Get a fast charger and charge up to 4 times per day and drive the snot piss out of it. Not that I don't already have way more than the average with no ill effects yet.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> I'd love to have a Leaf to test the fast charge issue. Get a fast charger and charge up to 4 times per day and drive the snot piss out of it.


I think you have a Leaf. Please let us know how the test turns out.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Not one I have to pay for. I did not buy mine for the test. I got mine to drive to work and back. Just what it was designed to do. I love the car.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Not one I have to pay for. I did not by mine for the test. I got mine to drive to work and back. Just what it was designed to do. I love the car.


But if there's no way for excesive use to degrade the battery, as you've stated so many times in this thread, then you would have no need to worry about wearing yours out.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I will however use my VW Roadster for a Fast Charge Test bed. But that uses LiFePO4 cells but old Hi-Power ones. Should be fun. When done I will drive the piss out of that one too.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> When done I will drive the piss out of that one too.


Doin' the work of two cabbies, no doubt.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> The average taxi trip in the U.S., as reported by Schaller Consulting in January of 2006, was 5 miles, with a waiting time of 5 minutes. Schaller also reports that in 2005, 39 percent of a New York taxi's total mileage was spent cruising the streets for passengers.
> .


 And that is the same for Osaka is it ??
But even if it is, the average journey is not really relavent.
how far does the average vehicle travel in any city between stops, turns etc. ?
MY experience is that its probably less than half a mile ..less in the city centers !...and in peak hours ??
Do you know how much servicing, brakes, trans, suspension tyres etc, any taxi gets ? basicly they need an annual service every month. !
There is no way your "consumer /commuter " experience can be equated to the rigors of a city taxi use !


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

But the article refers to those in in hot climates having troubles. Nothing about charging too much or too fast. I do actually charge more than once per day many times. Like today I did two charges. Not full but two charges and always to 100% which by the way is not recommended. Go figure. Right? The article has like you said very little information and that is why I call it BULL. If they had offered the information on why or what might have been the cause with back up information then I would have listened more closely. The other article from Pluginamerica is more in line with what I would expect from articles that claim busted packs. Not some weenie article. 

Like I said it is just a BS article. Before jumping on the band wagon with those that wrote the article you need to realize that if you follow the BS you are not helping any. If you add to it your not helping either. It is like the news crap we hear daily in the News. Mostly just garbage. Not real news. Just sensationalism. Or Drama. Such Drama. I get enough of that at the Hospital from the patients. Some founded mostly not.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Doin' the work of two cabbies, no doubt.


Would not go that far but yes I will drive the piss out of it because it will cost nothing for the juice. More solar going up real soon.  That will give a total of 13kW worth of panels.  More than enough for blasting around.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Before jumping on the band wagon with those that wrote the article you need to realize that if you follow the BS you are not helping any.


You do realize I was defending the Leaf by saying battery degradation would be expected to increase in line with increased usage. I also pointed out how they neglected to recognize even the financial benefits of driving electric so much. 

You're the one insisting these cars were treated normal and therefore the findings are all wrong.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Karter2 said:


> And that is the same for Osaka is it ??
> But even if it is, the average journey is not really relavent.
> how far does the average vehicle travel in any city between stops, turns etc. ?
> MY experience is that its probably less than half a mile ..less in the city centers !...and in peak hours ??
> ...


To a degree, yes. But I know I am not a taxi driver. I know what kind abuse the gas engines go through and brakes. They don't have regen either on the normal gasser taxi. Plenty of abuse for the interior too. But I have found that my interior is much more durable than originally thought it would be. Much more. 

No need to educate me on the rigors of a taxi or bus or over the road big rig. Or the average american who can't take care of crap. I'd say the average american abuses their vehicles as much or more than the taxi companies. Those companies have preventive maintenance programs to keep the fleet alive. Mostly checking things vs replacing but for sure keeping the oil and engine things checked monthly. I'd rather buy a used taxi than one from a private party. I'd be pretty much guaranteed that it had its proper maintenance kept and the car in good shape. They even check bushings and things too like everyone should do and like I do. Regular checkups are a must with any vehicle or machine.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> You do realize I was defending the Leaf by saying battery degradation would be expected to increase in line with increased usage. I also pointed out how they neglected to recognize even the financial benefits of driving electric so much.
> 
> You're the one insisting these cars were treated normal and therefore the findings are all wrong.


Hows being a taxi normal. No I am bitching because of no supporting information. I read your post. I did like the part where you said for them to stop crying and buy a new pack. That was good but pretty much wasted on this forum. Respond that to the article. 

I do live in a hot environment and do drive mine more than the average. I do charge more than once per day some days but not daily. I fall in line with the 90% or so and see no real degradation. Maybe a mile or so but not really.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

how much data do you need ?
Running a new model car ( not a proven established model) as a city taxi for 2 years,..i am honestly surprised that they are still working at all !
Not just batteries, but there is so much other "new" technology on them that was not intended for that kind of use.
Brakes, shocks, even door latches and seat covers, not to mention the drive train.
You can bet that those taxi drivers dont "baby" them along like an owner would either !


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

One thing no article reports on is the software upgrade last year for the Leaf owners and after the upgrade the way the guess o meter worked is not the same as when it was when purchased. It was an attempt to better show the true reality of the range but really tossed in the mix a total change in the way you follow the meter or turtle or what ever you want to call it. I go with the bars only and after a drive the mileage remaining is usually pretty correct. Not perfect but a good estimate. But for those who were keeping track of things the whole thing changed when they got the update. I'd love to have a full readout of all the functions of the car from the day I got it to now. Daily temps and distances and charges, Just every thing. I want a puke readout from day one. That will tell the true story. 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> . I want a puke readout from day one. That will tell the true story.


Tesla keeps all that and pulls it when you go in for your required doctor's checkup. Does Nissan do anything similar?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

They collect data daily and yes but you the customer don't get that print out. It is for Nissan. I'd assume the same for Tesla too.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You can opt out of data collecting but that annoying message on the nav panel will be in your face. I allow it because I feel they need all the information they need and if there is any doubt they can just get my cars life data. I have nothing to hide.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> After reading both article links the BS meter is on high alert. I liked the study from pluginamerica. Good information but nothing that would support the claims of the Taxi's in Japan. There was a post that had lots of subjective nonsense. That kind of shit is what we don't need.


Agreed. In my opinion, the article "Japan's Electric Taxis Falling Out Of Favor With Drivers" lacks context. We can't tell if the cars are being driven on hills or not and what loads are placed on them (eg. luggage etc). It is up to the reader to imagine the conditions and how the car is driven. Different people have different perceptions of how taxis are driven. We don't even know the depth of discharge the batteries are going through.


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