# Planning a 78 Austin Mini conversion



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Minispeed

I'm using a DC motor (11 inch) - and it's fun but it is a bit of a dinosaur

In your shoes I would be thinking about getting a whole crashed Leaf and using that power unit and some of the batteries

One of the guys is putting a Leaf unit into a Saab Sonata - 

Especially as you already have a Leaf to compare outputs with!


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi Duncan, I had a gut feeling you'd be the first one to reply to this thread.

I thought about the single donar route, and if this project doesn't get any traction in the next 2 years I'll let it sit another 2 years then that's what I'll do with my current leaf becoming the donar. The big problem with that for me is space. I don't have a lot of it and the wife will not like having half a car in the driveway. I know it's the best bet for price and knowing it SHOULD work. Plus I'd get chademo quick charging and remote app functions.

The downside is time waiting and/or having to pay it all up front for a scrap car. Used leafs aren't that common here and they are much higher in cost than in the US. I also considered the iMiev and smart ED. I think the smart would be easier with a full rear subframe transplant.

The big advantage of a cheap DC that I see
now is I can spend $1500 now, work on getting it to fit, test it with 12v then buy a controller, get it working on 48v then buy the rest of the batteries. By the time I've spent $6-8k USD, scrap leaf cost, I'll have most of the hard work done.

My budget est is :
$750usd chain diff 
$2000usd controller $500cdn adc9 motor
Or
$3500usd ac34 or ac50 kit
$6000usd batteries (I hope they may come down 10-15% in a year)
Then BMS, (haven't given that much thought yet).
Plus misc costs


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The whole Leaf transplant is one idea, using Leaf or Volt batteries is another- pretty much a must from a cost perspective.

The AC50 Kit rocks. Costs a bit but dead simple to use. Not beefy enough for direct drive though you might be ok in a Mini- I love and use my tranny in my Spitfire and direct drive would be anemic.

Cheap DC these days means building your own kit controller like Duncan did. Nit for the faint of heart but definitely possible.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Yes I've also read through your post because the weight of the spitfire and mini are similar. According to wikipedia the heaviest mini is about 1500lbs which is the same as the lightest spitfire. I do have a bit of light weight parts on/ready to go for my car; lexan Windows, alloy rear suspension arms, 6lb 12v, will do a beam to replace the rear subframe, alloy calipers (but 8.4" vented discs), stripped back seat, racing buckets, will strip all the gauges and use Android and a few lightweight bolts but that's also offset by the roll cage so I'm not sure what to expect for my curb weight. I'm also prepared to do more if I need to, aluminum doors, carbon boot lid, fiberglass flip front end (mostly cause I want a clubman front that I can swap out every so often), carbon roof and I also won't be putting in a stereo.

I also read about someone modifying the Tesla modules to be 48v 1/2 the Ah instead of 24 volts so I could get 15.9kWh at 144 volt. From memory I think the weights are at 54lbs a module, 108lbs less than 120 volt and 21.2kWh. Also from memory for leaf cells I'd be looking at about 300lbs for 17.7kWh at 144 volts and slightly more for the volt cells.

With regards to your spitfire what's your final drive, tire size, gear ratios for 2nd and 3rd? Is it acceptable acceleration in 3rd only? Do you know the curb weight after the conversion?

I found a PDF of the adc9 and it is as I thought so I should be able to use an adapter from canev for a Honda transmission if I want. The shafts are 1.125" and .875". I know I can get sprockets to mate up to the .875" does anyone know a place selling them in 1.125"? Based on the CCW rotation of the motor and the offset diff if I recall correctly ID want to mount the motor in the passenger side (for a Canadian LHD) and drive it off the 1.125" not the .875" end.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

minispeed said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I've been a long time lurker on the forums here and have been planning on doing an EV conversion to my 78 mini for a while. It's been put on the back burner in it's ICE state for the last few years and a while back I decided I never want to drive another ICE car again. I've had a 2015 Nissan Leaf for almost 2 years now.
> 
> ...



If you are still wanting to do a DC system there are still a few New Synkromotive Controllers available. 

http://greenev.zapto.org/synkromotive/Synkromotive.

I highly recommend you don't go direct drive with low voltage setups and with DC setups. Keep that tranny and you will be just fine. The little extra weight is no issue for a street driven vehicle. Remember, you are not building a racing vehicle where trimming weight is important. Not nearly so on an already light weight street vehicle. These electric motors have no problem scooting your ride down the road. The benefits of the transmission in a low voltage system out weigh the extra weight you carry. 

I would also consider using the HPEVS AC-50 setup for that vehicle. Those motors are great and you will have plenty of power (with your transmission) and you can also take advantage of the shifting. You will want it. Im not sure but I know that the early Mini's have the engine integral with the transmission. An odd but space saving setup. Does your Mini have a setup like that? 

But for DC and a Synkromotive controller you will also have plenty of grunt for your little ride. Check out the user manual.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

All Minis up to 2000 had the engine sitting on top of the gearbox, the gearbox and diff sat in the sump, and, everything ran on engine oil.

The Clubman front end is hugely un aerodynamic compared to the normal Mini front end at any speeds over about 35 mph, your range will be affected, and, more so the faster you go. There's a reason not too many people raced Minis with the Clubman front..... they were slower...


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

If you go with the AC50/51, stay within the limits of the Curtis 1238 96V controller if you can. It can put out 650 A which will give you a lot more grunt than the higher voltage (144V nominal) 1239 which is capable of only 500 A. 

Tesla modules unmodified are apparently 6S. Five modules should keep you under the limit of the 96V controller even with the higher nominal voltage of the Tesla chemistry. Your pack would be 126 V fully charged to 4.2 V/cell versus 118 V for mine fully charged (it's never been there- my charge tends to top out at about 112 V when my lowest capacity cell reaches HVC). My understanding is that the Volt and Leaf packs give you more bang for your buck. The Volt pack comes with some configuration issues- it can't be broken down easily into modules which are very small unless you do some major surgery. Plenty of advice here is available already from people who are using or have used them.

Note that it's tough from HPEVS's website alone to figure out what the actual maximum voltage is of the controllers. I'm making a call to them today so I will try to ask for a bit more clarification. From what I can figure, it's 130 V maximum for the 96V controller.

The Mini is a challenge from a gearbox perspective I guess- not really familiar with them but BWA, Duncan and many other are very familiar and can give you good advice. Personally with the AC50 I would NOT go without a gearbox. The clutch itself is optional, but it was easy for me to keep it and I don't regret that choice. 

I haven't worked out my drive ratios, nor have I had a chance to weigh the car yet- my guess would be about 1950-2000 lbs as the curb weight before conversion was about 1850 according to the door plate (not sure if that includes the 80 lbs of gasoline- I figure I am about 100 lbs heavier than the original car with a tank of gas). But I can tell you that my top speed would be severely limited in 2nd, and in 3rd the off the line performance is functional but embarrassing for a sports car. If you had 1000 A DC you might not feel so bad in 3rd. I had lots of PMs from other builders during my design phase who all said the same thing- don't go transmissionless with the AC50 unless your car is featherlight.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> If you go with the AC50/51, stay within the limits of the Curtis 1238 96V controller if you can. It can put out 650 A which will give you a lot more grunt than the higher voltage (144V nominal) 1239 which is capable of only 500 A.
> 
> Tesla modules unmodified are apparently 6S. Five modules should keep you under the limit of the 96V controller even with the higher nominal voltage of the Tesla chemistry. Your pack would be 126 V fully charged to 4.2 V/cell versus 118 V for mine fully charged (it's never been there- my charge tends to top out at about 112 V when my lowest capacity cell reaches HVC). My understanding is that the Volt and Leaf packs give you more bang for your buck. The Volt pack comes with some configuration issues- it can't be broken down easily into modules which are very small unless you do some major surgery. Plenty of advice here is available already from people who are using or have used them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help,

Here's what I dug up on gear ratios for your 80 celica box ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_W_transmission )
Ratios:


First Gear: 3.287:1
Second Gear: 2.043:1
Third Gear: 1.394:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.853:1
Final drive on US spitfires in the late 70s was 4.1 (closed the page so can't find a link). The other option would have been 3.89ish. With 175 70 13 tires (stock size I assumed) you should be at 32, 47 and 65 mph in 2nd, 3rd, 4th at 4000rpm. Just by dropping the tire size down and using a 4.1 chain drive I'd be like your car in a 3.5 gear, 57 mph at 4000rpm, my highest ratio of 5.0 would be 47 mph which would be your 3rd gear pretty much dead on. So I'm guessing with my planned weight of 1500lbs (with me in it) if you're saying it's only functional but embarrassing it would probably put me at near stock ICE. Then I would be at 5300rpm at 62 mph highway cruise.

*Ok direct drive is ditched. *Now I'll have to start looking for a transmission.

I also found that here they list the ac50 with the 1238-7601 can take up to 130volts input. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/hpevs-ac50-motor-conversion-kit.html


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

OK, you've figured it all out FOR me! Thanks- I appreciate it, and your estimates are nearly dead on what I experience driving the thing. I'm pretty sure I have the 175 70R 13s but will double check for you, and I do have the standard 4.1:1 diff, not the 3.89 which was used on the GT6 if I'm not mistaken. I've put the car in 5th just to see what it will do, but find I'm nearest to peak efficiency in 4th on the highway at 60 mph, and I can stay in 4th at 70 mph quite comfortably. I haven't driven it any faster, honest! But it certainly WILL go faster...

I'm pretty sure I have that 1238-7601, and the peak voltage of 130 V is what it says on my HPEVS literature- but that literature talks about 80 V nominal on the controller with 130 V peak which is what is confusing- HPEVS refers to that controller as the 96V model. Note that when you regen, you will go up in voltage quite a bit. Fortunately the controller has a high voltage cutback setting to make sure that it doesn't fry itself. On my pack, I'm always in a comfortable voltage range because my nominal voltage is quite a bit lower with my 32s LiFe cells.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/diff.html

Differential is likely 3.89:1, not 4.11:1 which was for an earlier mark. Mine was a '75 Spitfire 1500 for the North American market.

The GT6 apparently used the same 3.89:1 diff when coupled with an overdrive or 3.27:1 without.


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

Im doing a classic mini conversion, im using re cycled hybrid car parts and stuff from the breakers where possible. 

Im using an old micra gearbox, just because its small and light and i have a few already. 

I would get an AC motor if you can afford it, regen is something i wouldn't want to be without.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

bigmotherwhale said:


> Im doing a classic mini conversion, im using re cycled hybrid car parts and stuff from the breakers where possible.
> 
> Im using an old micra gearbox, just because its small and light and i have a few already.
> 
> I would get an AC motor if you can afford it, regen is something i wouldn't want to be without.



I looked into the Micra as I looked at a lot of gearboxes that they use on ICE conversions for minis but they don't have many here since we didn't get the Micra until last year.

Would you say they are light enough to ship overseas at a reasonable rate?

As for regen from driving the leaf I can easily go without it. I think it's always better to keep the energy in the battery and hypermile if you need to extend range. I try to avoid it in my leaf at all times and wish I could trun it off. If I had it in a conversion I'd like to wire it up to only work from a steering wheel button, not from the brakes or throttle.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi minispeed
Where are you? - it helps when asking about availability of various bits
It's a very good idea to fill out the location box in the top right hand corner


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Duncan said:


> Hi minispeed
> Where are you? - it helps when asking about availability of various bits
> It's a very good idea to fill out the location box in the top right hand corner


Sorry about that, updated now. I usually always do that on forums. Ancaster ON, right near moltenmetal. I actually looked to see if he was at the British car show last year but I didn't see his car.


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## BWA (Mar 14, 2015)

That puts you very close to me, I'm just over in Wellandport.

Must say, it's kind of weird seeing someone else using the Minispeed moniker. I've used that since 68-69, and used it as my company name when servicing/restoring British cars in the 80s/90s in Oakville. It's like I'm talking to myself (which, I do a lot of anyway)


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

minispeed said:


> I looked into the Micra as I looked at a lot of gearboxes that they use on ICE conversions for minis but they don't have many here since we didn't get the Micra until last year.
> 
> Would you say they are light enough to ship overseas at a reasonable rate?
> 
> As for regen from driving the leaf I can easily go without it. I think it's always better to keep the energy in the battery and hypermile if you need to extend range. I try to avoid it in my leaf at all times and wish I could trun it off. If I had it in a conversion I'd like to wire it up to only work from a steering wheel button, not from the brakes or throttle.


The only reason i used one is that they were easily available, you should find a small gearbox that's popular at the breakers close to where you live.

the main reason i want regen is for handling feel, like lift off oversteer


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Mini steering!
That takes me back
I remember when you could tell the powerful mini's because they had big steering wheels, - if a modified mini had a nice small wheel it was a sign that it was gutless - the bloody thing would try to tear itself out of your hands!


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

BWA said:


> That puts you very close to me, I'm just over in Wellandport.
> 
> Must say, it's kind of weird seeing someone else using the Minispeed moniker. I've used that since 68-69, and used it as my company name when servicing/restoring British cars in the 80s/90s in Oakville. It's like I'm talking to myself (which, I do a lot of anyway)


 Wow that is close! From your other posts I see you've got an AC24, I was also thinking of going that route but I was shocked to read (from your post) that the cost of the controller is about equal to just getting an AC kit from HPEVS with a motor and controller. And I feel your pain on our exchange rate. If it wasn't so bad vs the GBP I would have probably already bought the chain drive kit and committed to a single drive ratio conversion before I came here.



bigmotherwhale said:


> The only reason i used one is that they were easily available, you should find a small gearbox that's popular at the breakers close to where you live.
> 
> the main reason i want regen is for handling feel, like lift off oversteer


 For that I really wanted to go with RWD but it would be too costly. I might convert later or I may go for AWD!

If I used 6 tesla modules I'd call it the "mini P30D" That's one of the reasons I want to use a Honda gearbox since there are already kits to put it in the both the front and back of the mini. Even though I'm not going to use a kit for the sub frame I know that if I don't want to wait or bother with a machine shop I can just order drive shafts that will bolt in. The transmissions are plentiful but are a bit more expensive because of the transplants within the tuner civic/integra crowd. The other benefit is that they have LSD options.



Duncan said:


> Mini steering!
> That takes me back
> I remember when you could tell the powerful mini's because they had big steering wheels, - if a modified mini had a nice small wheel it was a sign that it was gutless - the bloody thing would try to tear itself out of your hands!


I use small steering wheels in all my cars.... pre airbags but that's since I'm tall, 6'4. The extra leg room is nice. Especially when you drop the steering to get rid of the bus driver position. Also since my seats are sitting about half way between the usual fronts and the rears I had to modify the steering. I was given the option of putting a u-joint in and having the wheel a bit higher which would allow me to run a larger wheel which I wish I had done. Right now I think I have a 330mm thick suede deep dish, a 350mm and I have a 280mm from my Miata. The one nice thing about the racing/sport wheels vs stock is they are nice and thick to grip on too.

Of coarse my mini never had much torque. That's where I messed up in my youth I was searching for the highest HP everything. I've got tons of parts on there that on a race car would scream but made it feel slow for a street car. I did some bad internet searching about choosing gear ratios on a "powerful" car and got the wrong final drive when I bought my gearbox. I think I put a low 3ish one on, 3.14 I think? 3.44 was stock but with all the high HP parts I had I should have put close to 4 on it. It was gutless off the line.

I have on it a 1293cc, medium compression (a slight shaving of the head). Pretty much a stock A+ head, 1.5 ratio roller rockers, webber 45DCOE (should have went with a 40) which started with the dreaded "swan neck" manifold I later switched to a 3-4" maniflow but I then bought a 1 3/4 SU which should have better torque and driveability with only a few less top end HP, 3-1 header with a 2" exhaust and generic low flow muffler which I later switched to an LCB with an RC40.

I bought a whole bunch of parts to try to get back to more low end torque but never got around to putting them on and getting it all sorted. I also bought the LSD but the crown wheel I wanted was out of stock so I actually don't have all the parts to fit it. I did put straight cut drop gears with a slight FD ratio change in them and that helped a bit. It also made it sound awesome (the box is full straight cut too).


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My min had a 1430 with a wicked head, 3/4 race cam (649) and the 1 3/4 inch SU,
It was a very high compression ratio - was terrible with a Cooper S cam but lovely with the 649 - you need to match compression ratio to cam overlap 
A real torque monster!
also a 2.9:1 diff

Did you get yours properly set up on a rolling road?
In my experience most modified cars are nowhere near properly set up - they tend to be OK ish at high revs but struggle low down
There are hordes of snake oil salesmen who claim to be able to set them "by ear" - but they are all deluded - you NEED the proper instrumentation

I remember doing a drag race against one of my pals - his car was supposed to be more powerful and mine was definitely heavier

No competition! I just zipped away

I did have a big wheel and it was really needed when powering out of corners 

That was a fun car - after that engine was worn out (45,000 miles) I dropped in a 2 liter Lancia Beta twin cam,
Twin Webers, 3/4 race cams - 175Hp!
But with new suspension (home designed strut system) and the Lancia equal length driveshafts less torque steer than with the 1430


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Closer than you think- I work in Burlington...my car isn't on the road right now but if you're interested, PM me and you can drop by sometime.

I didn't have the car on the road legally for last year's Ancaster show. But I did take it to the big British Car Day at Bronte Creek- I think that'll be an annual thing for me as it was a great time.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

No I never got it set up on a rolling road, which we usually just call dyno around here. One of the last things I did was buy the David Wizard (I think that's the name) tunning the A series. I bought a lot of the parts I haven't fitted yet based on that book. A bunch of different weber jets then an SU came on ebay.co.uk cheap and offered international shipping. I got a G tech pro which is an accelerometer based HP guess machine (which a phone can do now). A friend of mine got one of the first ones back in probably '98, it was pretty accurate on stock cars giving 15-20% less than the manufacture rated power and showed his tuned integra type r as giving about 25% more hp than it had stock. I also got a wide band O2 and a megajolt elec ignition kit. The plan was to get it sorted as well as I could with a good HP and 0-80km/hr sprint while making sure the wideband O2 wasn't ever going into too lean or rich of a situation. A poor mans rolling road if you will.

Those are some pretty wild mods on yours and she looks like a monster! I wanted something similar years back. I wanted a RWD front engine Toyota AE86 based car with a wide body similar to this:










That's a fiero driveline with a V8 in it. I couldn't find pics of the previous car which was similar in wide body but front engine with a 4 link rear suspension. The guy there is Paul Plunkett, who I'm not sure is around anymore. he did a lot of the work on my mini including the cage, front disc conversion and the removable steel front end. He also set up my engine to get it running properly before I did a lot of the bolt on stuff. he was a tune it by ear type of guy.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Closer than you think- I work in Burlington...my car isn't on the road right now but if you're interested, PM me and you can drop by sometime.
> 
> I didn't have the car on the road legally for last year's Ancaster show. But I did take it to the big British Car Day at Bronte Creek- I think that'll be an annual thing for me as it was a great time.


 Haha yes I remember now reading you work in Burlington when you wrote about the temp HOV lanes bugging you on your drive while I was loving them in the leaf LOL.

I've actually never been to the Ancaster show but I always try to make BCD every year. I also use to go to the Cruise nights at mapleview mall every week with the mini. I'm not sure if they still do those. I actually grew up in Burlington and moved out there for cheap housing even though I drive a lot now to Pearson for work. That's the catch 22 of electric cars, the people the can benefit the most (especially with cheap gas) are stretching the limits of the range.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I was at BCD, but there were 1100 cars last year so it's tough to see them all- I got to see basically nothing because I was being thronged by gobsmacked people wondering what the hell was under the hood...


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## bigmotherwhale (Apr 15, 2011)

I cant believe you wanted a final drive of 4.
I ran a very high compression ratio probably a bit too high, again tuned for optimum torque and i ran a 2.76 final drive ratio on a set of abingdon ratio SC gears

you could change out of first 8000rpm @ 70mph!


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

bigmotherwhale said:


> I cant believe you wanted a final drive of 4.
> I ran a very high compression ratio probably a bit too high, again tuned for optimum torque and i ran a 2.76 final drive ratio on a set of abingdon ratio SC gears
> 
> you could change out of first 8000rpm @ 70mph!


 
I'm obviously not a final drive expert or I wouldn't have got it wrong in the first place, or want to run a single speed on a DC conversion. From the way the car handled and the way I used it it was gutless off the line in first gear and I would have to rev it to about 2000 then bog a bit before it went and wait for the power to come on at about 3500. My engine also didn't pull much past 6200 rpm. I would downshift to 3rd on the highway if I wanted to pass, I can't remember what it ran at on the highway but it felt like an overdrive 5th gear. In reality I would have been fine with a 75mph top speed although I wanted more back then. I think that had I gone with a 3.44 or higher I would have had a lot more fun with the car and spent less time thinking about what I did wrong. I remember thinking when I bought the box that I should go with the 3.44 since it's cooper s stock but then I was planning on having more power than a cooper s (didn't really happen) and I wanted to be able to downshift to first for hairpins so I went lower. In the real world it made me dread stop lights. I would have saved some money back then too although I'd have less spares to sell now for the conversion.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi minispeed,

I have seen various "guess" devices for setting a car up but you really do need a chassis dyno (rolling road) - or else a true dynamometer

You need to be able to provide a consistent load while measuring the exhaust emissions to see if you have the correct mixture,
I have the Vizard the wizard books - they are very very good but unless you have got exactly the same components then they are just a guide

The reason it is so difficult is that the intake airflow is so massively variable - it goes suck, stop, suck, stop, suck......
The SU is a "constant velocity" carb - But it does not even try to move with the actual suck, stop cycle
For an SU on the rollers you fit a modified carb top with a rod sticking out so you can see the height of the piston (and hence the needle) from the outside
Run the car on the rollers - noting the exhaust mixture the power and the needle height 
Then get yourself a needle with the correct shape - it's an iterative process

My 1430 was a torque monster but the 1 3/4 SU limited my top end - 112Hp at 5500rpm

The twin cam had a pair of 40's - should have had 45's or bigger - with straight machined chokes to get maximum airflow
The rolling road guy set that up - I don't know much about setting up Webers
Again slightly too small carbs properly set up - could spin the track tires in second!
175hp - 
and I used to take the slicks off (and the extended wheel arches) and drive it home from the track with the slicks and my tools in a small trailer


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

OK I've finally put my money where my mouth is!

I ordered a synkromotive controller, I'll be picking up the ADC9 next week and I'm picking up the gearbox today.

I spent more than I wanted but that controller at $1300USD sounds like a much better option than a diy build for at least $600USD plus time and headache. It should give plenty for the mini as it can deliver over 200hp.

I spent a little more on the gearbox too at $500 to go with a Honda B series with a quaife LSD. I went with the B series since there's a kit to convert the mini to awd using the CRV B seiers transmission and rear diff. It would mean acnew transmission but I'd keep the same motor adaptor clutch and flywheel vs using a D series gearbox and not having that upgrade available. I think with my motor and controller choice a mechanical awd would be better than a dual motor set up and the required timf spent figuring out how to fit it.

So next step is a motor adaptor and learning to weld so I can mount it. Then driveshafts. I'll probably get it working at 48v with used lead acid just to test it around the neighborhood then buy lithium. Hopefully used packs come down in price by then.

Does anyone know of a place other than canev for motor adaptors and couplers? I wasn't too impressed when I emailed asking if they have held Canadian pricing steady since it's been $825usd for years and the exchange rate has changed. I'm fine paying USD but then quoted a Canadian price higher than that days exchange rate.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Sounds like a plan- going DC will give you the performance you want, and the range penalty will be small- though it would be nice for you to recover the energy coming down Hamilton Mountain every day...

Can't comment one way or the other on the Synkromotive controllers, but I agree- it seems like a heck of a deal relative to a $600 DIY kit. The Solitons aren't being made any more apparently though Evnetics still supports them.

Doubt the Li packs are going to come down in price any time soon, since the only ones worth considering in my view for a budget DIY conversion are the used Leaf and Volt packs- in our case, that would be out of wreckers in the US, found via Car-Part.com. I don't see those prices falling much below where they are. Few wreckers are unaware now that there's a market for these bits. If I were you, I'd be planning a trailer trip to the northern US to pick up one of those packs- after you've got proof of concept with 48V dead lead.

Given your skills and experience, I doubt you'll find the adapter and hub too much of a bother if you intend to keep the clutch, which you should if you want performance. The CanEV plate/hub combos are definitely expensive but mine worked perfectly- my motor was in place in less than an hour, aside from building the motor mount. Depends how much time and aggravation and worry are worth to you. I was deterred from building my own because I was worried about alignment and the risk of wearing out my expensive AC50 motor's front bearing or my tranny by doing a bad job of it, which I strongly suspected I would- if you look at my build you'll notice that I tend toward "git-er-done" rather than being a precision builder.

You can definitely get away clutchless, but the clutch will give you faster shifting. And the clutch will last forever, because you will only use it for changing gears.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Sounds like a plan- going DC will give you the performance you want, and the range penalty will be small- though it would be nice for you to recover the energy coming down Hamilton Mountain every day...
> 
> Can't comment one way or the other on the Synkromotive controllers, but I agree- it seems like a heck of a deal relative to a $600 DIY kit. The Solitons aren't being made any more apparently though Evnetics still supports them.
> 
> ...



Going down the mountain is no advantage with regen because I'll almost always start with a full pack. In the leaf I can usually only get about 10kW worth of regen. I'm also not worried about brakes since I have the biggest set you could ever get with a mini, 8.4" vented with aluminum calipers.

I checked with evwest and evsource on soliton Jr availability first as they both let you add to cart, and both said no stock. Evwest said they are no longer available and recommend AC. Neither said if they still had a soliton 1 but I didn't want to spend that much.

I will definitely be keeping the clutch, got almost new aftermarket excedy "stage 1" for $45 with the tranny. I'll also definitely be going with the canev adapter. I will not be trying to make one. I can also go with a mini subframe kit that's completely bolt in that will mate to this tranny. At $2600usd it's a tough sell. At 1:1 exchange I probably would have done it.

The reason I spent more on this tranny is the LSD which I'm thinking will be enough to keep me from going awd. Could have got ad series tranny with clutch flywheel and shifter linkage for $150, and there's someone selling a used canev adapter, although itsvan old post for $400usd but I think I would have had too much wheel spin. The LSD will also let me run a LRR tire if I choose without loosing as much grip. However a 2.4" increase in tire size will mean bigger flares which could negate the benefit.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php

I used this for the leaf, 3500lbs .28cd 24.7 frontal .01 rolling and then tested the car on the highway today. To hold 65 with out a perfectly level road and wind was going 11-16kW so the 14kW est on that calculator is decent. The mini at 1700lbs, .48cd 20 frontal and .015 rolling takes more energy over 45 mph. If I could get it 200lbs less cut CD to .4 and fit re92s at .006 it would take less energy at 65 than the leaf. That's a tall order though.

I think I'd like to fit 30kWh which means 600lbs with leaf, a bit more for volt and 300lb for Tesla. Right now that's about $7k USD for Tesla which isn't so bad. 2 leaf packs plus recoup a bit on selling extra cells or 2 volt packs at $2-3k each. I'm also not sure about fitting them all. I'm going to make some foam cut outs of volt and leaf modules if I want to go that route. In a few years maybe a wrecker 2016 leaf pack or half a bolt pack.

Then again there's always the chance by the time this all gets done my 2015 leaf is near worthless compared to me buying a new battery.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Well it's a tiny step but I got my motor rotation switched today. It was super easy and the extra holes had Allen head bolts in them so they were really clean. I was still a bit worried about one bolt that took a lot more to get in but it wasn't stripped. I had a bit of a scare when the motor wouldn't turn on 12v. Turns out the cable I used to connect S2-A2 must have had a bad bend since another cable solved that. I didn't think to try that until an hour of double checking manuals and everything, trying to find a new 9v for my volt meter then just giving up for the night as I trickle charged it. Next day it still didn't work then I figured re do each step and I used a different cable.

I've still got some more parts to collect in terms of matching the Honda trans to the mini so I need the driveshafts, there are 3 since it uses a half shaft. Honda also made several changes so any of them work but I need the to match years and so far I can't find anyone selling a set. Someone here is parting out an Integra but wants $420 for 5 parts. Full Integra with blown motors go for $500-600. My wife would kill me if I parked and old car in the driveway even though that's the best thing to do.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Well it's been a while and I've got some troubles. Ive been focusing on cleaning up the clutter of a garage I have to make it work as a work space and I knocked over the motor off a stand and now it makes a noise. Im thinking the bearing. I took it apart checked for anything touching and put it back together. The only thing i didnt take apart was the main driveshaft centre part (sorry i dont k ow the term) to the face side oposite the brushes. When i first put it back together it sounded better but then came back. It was a bit less constant though.

Tell me what you guys think.

https://youtu.be/FBtM_MTtv0E


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

If it hit hard enough, it could be a brinelled bearing. It could be a loose bearing shield (if it has them) or other part. The only way to check is to take the motor apart to look and check the feel of the bearings rotated by hand. Sometimes a blow will knock a piece of grit or other debris between the armature and stator. This would show up as rub marks. If it really hit hard, maybe the shaft got bent. You would have to use or have a machinist use a dial indicator to check for run out.

If your feeling adventuresome, a light to moderate wack with a plastic mallet on the opposite end of the motor shaft (while it's not running!) from the dropped end could remove an unwanted preload on the bearing(s), from the drop, that might be causing the noise.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> If it hit hard enough, it could be a brinelled bearing. It could be a loose bearing shield (if it has them) or other part. The only way to check is to take the motor apart to look and check the feel of the bearings rotated by hand. Sometimes a blow will knock a piece of grit or other debris between the armature and stator. This would show up as rub marks. If it really hit hard, maybe the shaft got bent. You would have to use or have a machinist use a dial indicator to check for run out.
> 
> If your feeling adventuresome, a light to moderate wack with a plastic mallet on the opposite end of the motor shaft (while it's not running!) from the dropped end could remove an unwanted preload on the bearing(s), from the drop, that might be causing the noise.


I took the armature and stator apart and didn't see any debris in there or anything loose.

Well I didn't feel as adventurous as hitting it with a mallet...I did get a puller and took that end off. After the first pop that would have released any excess pressure I ran it quickly and it made the same noise. Took it fully off and felt the bearing by hand and it felt perfect. It also looked to be seated 100% flush. I put it all back together to see if I'd be extremely lucky and fix it just by realigning everything.... no such luck. I did a quick test that I think is as close as I can at home to seeing if the shafts got bent. I used some metal bolted to the motor with one piece that could slide, put it 90 degrees to the piece bolted down and ever so slowly moved it over just till it rubbed the shaft. I could feel it vibrate and hear it too, then i backed it off a tiny bit and couldn't notice it, hear it, or feel it rubbing.

I carefully moved my ear around as the motor ran and it's only making noise from that bearing area. I also think that makes the most sense cause the bearing would be responsible for stopping the force from the impact. I know from the mark on the floor the main impact was the shaft first. Lucky for me 2 people on ebay have it for cheap. Bad part is they want $37 & $45 to ship it to Canada!


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Some photos of the disassembled motor would be helpful. Does this motor have a fan? If so, check for bent blades. Most motors have a plate screwed down to hold one bearing in a fixed location, and the other bearing floats in its housing to accommodate heat expansion and contraction. Check the condition of this plate.

What are the bearing numbers and/or their size?

Instead of the shaft wack you could slide a piece of pipe or tubing on the floor contact shaft end and tap the pipe or tube to reseat the bearing. Make sure you're only contacting the inner race of the bearing.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Well one picture worked


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Should I be concerned that the brushes aren't smooth?


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Should this putty concern me?



Or this rust on the inside? Will that go away as I use it or should I give it a light sanding?


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Here's the bearing, KBC 6207D



Can't see any obvious damage to the fan


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The epoxy putty is for balancing the armature. The only rub point I could see is maybe the backside of the fan on field terminal insulator. The 6207 with double seals is a very common bearing-you should be able to find it locally at a very reasonable price. The front bearing is held in with a snap ring instead of a screwed down plate. The rear bearing floats with a light spring washer to keep it in place.

A little bit of rust is OK. I usually coat the windings and exposed metal surfaces with this or an equivalent: http://sprayon.com/product-categories/electrical-and-electronic-cleaners-and-degreasers/green-insulating-varnish-aerosol-el609 

Too much paint on the windings and the heat transfer rate is reduced. The armature is a close fit inside the stator-so go easy there too. But in abrasive, corrosive, and marine environments the paint really helps protect the motor.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_The epoxy putty is for balancing the armature_.

I knew that epoxy was used for this - but that looks like a big blob just barely attached
Is that normal?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

It gets pressed into the crevices of the laminations and the windings. You can even see somebody's fingerprints on the small blob! The first time I saw balancing putty in a motor, I thought something had crawled in the motor and died. Some manufactures use small weights or drilling and grinding for balancing, others use this putty.

The brushes must be new. They still have their original edge chamfers. The pits must be minor manufacturing flaws. You should check them for smoothness as they bed in.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> The epoxy putty is for balancing the armature. The only rub point I could see is maybe the backside of the fan on field terminal insulator. The 6207 with double seals is a very common bearing-you should be able to find it locally at a very reasonable price. The front bearing is held in with a snap ring instead of a screwed down plate. The rear bearing floats with a light spring washer to keep it in place.
> 
> A little bit of rust is OK. I usually coat the windings and exposed metal surfaces with this or an equivalent: http://sprayon.com/product-categories/electrical-and-electronic-cleaners-and-degreasers/green-insulating-varnish-aerosol-el609
> 
> Too much paint on the windings and the heat transfer rate is reduced. The armature is a close fit inside the stator-so go easy there too. But in abrasive, corrosive, and marine environments the paint really helps protect the motor.


 
Thanks for the tips on the putty and spray. I am not worried at all about that putty coming off it looks like it's on there for good. I didn't pick at it at all I figured it looked like it was put there for a reason but just wanted to make sure. I didn't comment on it but one of the pics had a bolt pointing to it. I was worried when I spotted it then but after taking the case off when I got a close look I wasn't as worried.

Are there any differences in the spray by colour or is it just looks? I'm thinking it might mean something for the properties like red vs blue Loctite. I found a place that will ship the red to Canada on ebay but couldbn't find the green.

I already found someone on ebay with the bearing. The auto check out had $45 shipping but that was for a flate rate box. I'm guessing most of their customers order more than one part. I messaged them and they said they would ship it cheaper as a single order, just waiting to hear back.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Green Loktite is the post-assembly "wicking grade" stuff. We buy it from a local industrial hardware supplier like S.B. Simpson I think- I know we're a fairly big Henkel customer between their thread sealants, thread lockers and antisieze products.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Moltenmetal said:


> Green Loktite is the post-assembly "wicking grade" stuff. We buy it from a local industrial hardware supplier like S.B. Simpson I think- I know we're a fairly big Henkel customer between their thread sealants, thread lockers and antisieze products.


I think ms is using Loktite as a metaphor. The traditional insulating paint is called Schenectady red from its use by GE in that town. I hear the place reeked of its unique smell. I like the newer green epoxy stuff. It seems to penetrate better, dry a little faster, and be less prone to cracking when there's a thick layer. The green stuff I use has more of a matte finish than the red. Usually, I'll apply a top finish of high gloss clear insulating paint (I think it's an acrylic) to have a better surface for shedding dirt and moisture.

All three paints are available at Grainger (they call them insulating varnishes) in the US (Acklands Grainger in Canada) and other places.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

I had similar rust problem with my Warp motor and did the same as you plan (see p. 31-32)
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/smart-fortwo-ev-high-power-version-51472p31.html

IMHO red varnish should be good as well: Dielectric Strength = 2600 Volts, 155°C...


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Thanks Yabert,

I've followed your post a few times as I'm leaning towards volt batteries now with a similar set up to yours, 2 banks of 120-168v though. 

The thing I didn't see in your post, what was the LxWxH measurements of one of your twin packs?

Grainger in Canada didn't have the varnish on the web site but I found a few places that did. The problem is they are all industrial supply places and none of them have online ordering. I found one in the area code beside me and asked for a quote on 2 of the green cans shipped. I won't be winter driving the mini so it won't be as important as it was in your application.



As for the possibility that the fan is rubbing and causing me trouble I think I'll put a light coat of paint on it then run it for a bit disassemble it and see if any of the paint has worn off from contact. I'll also get a new bearing to try out as it's pretty cheap. I removed the bearing today and flipped it around, I don't think that will solve my problem but it's free and I'll see if it's better or worse.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

electro wrks said:


> .... The 6207 with double seals is a very common bearing-you should be able to find it locally at a very reasonable price...


 All I can find around here are both brand VXB and either 6207DDU or 6207DU. My email to the supplier asking if it's the same went unanswered. Anyone know for sure? They both list the size as the same, anyone know enough about bearing codes to say if they would work?


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

So I got my new bearing installed and it seems that it was the source of the noise. 

It's running smoothly again. The floor is dirty so ignore the sounds when. I shuffle around.
https://youtu.be/7UaUkcZKe3Y


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Hey minispeed: are you coming to British Car Day? I'm touch and go- damaged my knee by merely standing up from an awkward position (sitting on the front wheel of the Spitfire, leg on either side of the suspension- done it 1000 times at least, but this time my kneecap went walkabout on the way up...). Hoping I have enough knee flexibility to be able to drive the E-Fire by the time the big show comes up!

Made any more progress, other than the bearing?


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm working that day, start in at noon so I might head in early then go. However my wife is also expecting our second child this week so I have no clue how things will go and how precious sleep may be that morning.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Moltenmetal said:


> Hey minispeed: are you coming to British Car Day? I'm touch and go- damaged my knee by merely standing up from an awkward position (sitting on the front wheel of the Spitfire, leg on either side of the suspension- done it 1000 times at least, but this time my kneecap went walkabout on the way up...). Hoping I have enough knee flexibility to be able to drive the E-Fire by the time the big show comes up!
> 
> Made any more progress, other than the bearing?


Hope the knee feels better soon, at least with an ev you won't need to shift that much! I use to actually switch my feet when I drove all day deliveries, would sometimes drive a whole afternoon with my left foot, automatic of coarse.

No more progress, the next major step is de-icing the mini. The garage is a huge mess now. My wife wanted to get rid of her desk and made me put it in the garage instead of the basement. She just doesn't understand that using the garage as storage is like saying "I don't want it in the house and we can't throw it away so I'll put it in your place and screw you"


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Well I got side tracked, well more like off tracked. I had started looking at alternative EV conversions as the job of welding in a non standard tranny had me doubting my skills. I remembered some past advice I read here about choosing a car that you love because if you do it just to have an EV (which I already have in the leaf) then you'll tire of it quick. Since I also really wanted rwd and feared that the mini wouldn't handle well with that much torque to the front wheels... well actually that's not true I know it would still handle well it's a mini. I just didn't think I'd be able to put the power down as early in corners as I could with RWD.

So that leads me to my next project. I bought an 87 Porsche 944S. The 944 has always been a dream car of mine, I think it's design perfection for a sports car. The only thing that has even come close for me are cayman, Miata coupe, MZ4 and the BRZ/FRS but those are all way too expensive right now. I paid a little more than I would have liked but after driving 2 other 944s, one a beater and good condition 85.5 (new interior but no rear anti roll bar) I knew that not all 944s were created equal. This one was very tight, no rust issues at all, lots of new parts (brake lines, vacuum lines, fuel lines) past it's Provincial safety inspection. Plus this one has forged 16s that are pretty much a flat disc (surprising that they are listed as 18lbs for a forged 16in rim). Many other 944s have the original wheels missing and use boxster or aftermarket wheels and that was a big thing for me.

This will mean I won't have much money for a battery for a few years but hopefully by then I'll be able to get a 30kWh leaf pack or even a bolt pack.

So for now I'll return to being mostly a lurker and slowly build up some more parts then invest in a battery then get to tearing it apart. I'll sadly be selling or more likely parting out the mini.


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## minispeed (Jun 30, 2013)

Here are the oics from the ad.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi minispeed

As a great mini fan - with a lot of mini's in my past I unfortunately have to agree with you 

The mini's reputation for great handling was based on a very low power level,
A mini with 40hp handles superbly - with 80hp it is OK
With over 100hp.... the limitations in the front suspension become horribly obvious


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