# Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*



> Heynow wrote:
> > I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the idea
> > of batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep them
> > in the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do some
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

It is best to have some type of fire wall between the battery box container 
and the passenger compartment. The fire wall between the motor bay and 
passenger may not be completely steel. There are areas in the firewall that 
may be plastic like the heater fan units, the heater core covers, and wire 
and cable entrances points.

Now is you look at some trunks, the fire wall between the trunk area and the 
rear seat may be only a plastic or cloth insulator. If you use the trunk 
method, its is best to install a full piece of metal over this area.

Looking at a pickup with batteries in the box, and if you have a battery 
explosion, the rear glass will break up into small pieces and embed into 
you.

I am using the pick up method, but I replace or overlay that rear glass with 
a piece of 1/4 inch very high impact lexon glass you can get at a glass 
shop.

All my batteries are enclose in a two compartments of 1/4 inch fiberglass 
sheeting that is reinforce up to 1/2 inch thick or more. The battery box 
covers are stainless full length hinge and double seal when the lids are 
close.

A battery box ventilation should be use, where the all plastic totally 
enclose fan exhaust the battery box air out from one corner which brings in 
fresh air through a filter at the other corner of the box. The exhaust air 
goes up in a heavy duty 1/4 inch flex hose. DO NOT USE THOSE THIN VINYL 
HOSES, where the battery fumes will take these out in with a day.

Most important is to have the battery box covers hinge so only the open end 
faces away from the passenger compartment. Plus, do not latch the covers 
down, only hinge them, plus as well any other cover.

Back in 1985 I had one defective battery exploded, which also took out 9 
other batteries. The battery covers lefted up, plus also left up the hatch 
back cover which blew out the lexon glass all in one piece. The rear window 
lexon glass panel held.

A local battery company slip in 10 batteries that was 9 months old with a 
new 21 other batteries that were 1 month old. The batteries exploded the 
minute I press the accelerator.

It is possible to use a wagon as a EV, but I would get that back panel 
section from a pickup and install it, so it would separate the driver 
section from the battery section. Use a 1/4 inch lexon glass you can get 
from a glass company and seal it in so it overlaps the flange on the battery 
side.

The only problem, is if you have a battery explosion, it will shatter all 
the side windows and may kill some one if you do not reinforce those too.

If you do not use battery box covers or hinge covers, then I would triple 
layer this glass between the the passenger compartment and the batteries. 
Also remember to ventilated the battery area. I first start up the exhaust 
fans before I turn on the battery charger and open any covers. Run the fans 
for about 1 minute before you charge the batteries or work on them.

I have install a interlock system, where I must first turn on the fans which 
activates a switch which detects the air flow in the fan exhaust hoses. 
When the flow is corrected, then it activates DC contactor that is between 
the battery charger and batteries.

At any time, this fan fails, it will then shut down the battery charger.

This fan control system is use on building heating systems, where the fans 
must come on first and stay for a certain amount of time after the heating 
system shuts down.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heynow" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 8:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


>
> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the 
> idea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Batteries-in-the-passenger-compartment--tp16924189p16924189.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

God I am gad some one has the time to tell about how they did it first,
thanks for all the good info.
There is always time for great design!



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > It is best to have some type of fire wall between the battery box
> > container
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*



> Randy Eckert wrote:
> > God I am glad some one has the time to tell about how they did it first.
> > Thanks for all the good info. There is always time for great design!
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

You could always place a sealed shelf from the back seat to the hatch so th=
at your batteries are not in the passenger compartment and you still get th=
e volume and payload capacity of the wagon, plus useable space above the ba=
tteries on the shelf
> =

> I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the id=
ea
> of batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep them
> in the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do some
> wagons have more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV?
> =

> Thanks
> =

> Pe

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us. 

I have 6 batteries behind the back seat of my '74 Beetle. The tops are cove=
red with 2 layers of 1/2" thick wood and now, thanks to Roland's story, I'l=
l be putting a bullet-proof layer of something along the back of the seat a=
nd a thick lexan sheet that rises from the top of the seat to the ceiling. =
There is already a small exhaust fan that dumps vapors to the engine compar=
tment which is open to the air.

I haven't had any issues or problems. I say it's safe to do with proper pr=
ecautions.
_________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heynow =

Subject: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?
To: [email protected]: =

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii =


I have been avoiding looking at wagons as a glider as I don't like the idea=
of batteries in the passenger compartment. I want to be able to keep themin=
the trunk and under the hood. Am I wrong in thinking this? Do somewagons h=
ave more carrying capacity, so they are better foe an EV? Thanks Peter



________________________________

Rich A.
Maryland
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html
http://patriotfuel.blogspot.com/




_________________________________________________________________
Back to work after baby=96how do you know when you=92re ready?
http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=3D=
5797498&ocid=3DT067MSN40A0701A

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires you
wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
home.
I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
very plug and play.
I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
$25.
But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery and
one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a built
in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have as
much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
It makes your car back up power for your house.

How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low wattage
stuff for plastic pipes.
I don't think it would not take much to install one of those small travel
size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more than
one setting on most of them.
If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night you
could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you windows
and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
What say yeeh engineers?



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*



> Randy Eckert <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
> > wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
> > be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at =

least keep the battery at about 80 degrees. There are some water pipe heat =

tapes, that have a built in thermostat that only allows these tapes to get =

up to 40 degrees, which is just enough to keep water from freezing.

Ok, so I remove that built in thermo from this flat type of heater tape and =

install a external line voltage heater thermostat that had a range from 40 =

degrees to 90 degrees.

I wrap it around my aluminum battery box where the 2 volt cells where potte=
d =

into this box. Tape on a commercial 1 inch thick fiberglass sheet with =

aluminum backing over the heat tape. You do not want any foam or some othe=
r =

material than can burn.

This work good for awhile, until 20 amp circuit breaker started to trip. I =

found that the tape wrap around the 90 degree corners of the box, cause =

black burn spots at every turn, which one corner burnt all the way through.

So I redid it by taping a rubber hose which was cut in half to the corners. =

Latter, I look at that round blue heat tape that came out, but this was =

internal temperature control to maintain only a 40 degree temperature. Thi=
s =

temperature control is accomplish by changing the resistance of the heater =

elements as the ambient temperature drops. So adding a external thermostat =

to this type of heat tape does not work.

Today, the only battery heater I use is a electric battery blanket made by =

KATs which you can get at some auto parts store. I use it only on my 12 =

volt accessory battery.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Randy Eckert" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


What about heating the battery pack in the winter,,,say with those wires you
wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least while it is at
home.
I was looking at some of those back up power sources for your PC, They have
wonderful clean sine wave out puts and built in battery back up, That could
be upgraded to a 12volt accessory batt to run all your 12 volt stuff, plus
it would keep those batts charged, it has nice gauges telling state of
charge....... plus could even provide clean AC for a PC or a heater (think
hair blow dryer for fast window defrosting and hand warming) They also are
very plug and play.
I have seen 2250 watts for Less than $200 (used) to little 550 watts for
$25.
But given the price of DC to DC inverters I think a stand alone battery and
one of these backup power units are much more useful because you get a built
in charger, clean quality AC power, gauges,and 12volt power,you can have as
much depth to the battery size you may need for lights, stereo, wipers,
windows, and it just plugs in and tops it's self off.
If you have a grid power outage it is there for you also.
It makes your car back up power for your house.

How about putting that heat tape inside your car seat? They have low wattage
stuff for plastic pipes.
I don't think it would not take much to install one of those small travel
size hair blowers into you duct system for window heating, you could maybe
put a 12 volt fan motor on it so it did not sound like a jet engine. But
they make good fast heat and the wattage is on them and they have more than
one setting on most of them.
If it was hooked to the back up power and it in turn plugged in at night you
could kick it on 10 min before you leave and never need to scrap you windows
and it would be toasty warm in your EV.
What say yeeh engineers?



> Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Leave it to Roland to scare the bejesus out of all of us.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

I was reading a reveiw of a 900watt unit that ran 30min powering a PC now I
bet it has it's own fan ,but even not that is an easy fix,
Given the real run time of most home built ev's and what I would be using
it for, small wire heating of batt's, window defrosting, ithats inside its
design use age ,
but a temp gauge is prudent also.
The back up power ability is limited, but it is there.
As for the charger in it I am sure because they use sealed lead batts it is
low watts but having a couple 18amp hr or just 1 car batt should be good. it
will tell you if it thinks something is wrong with the batt.
And at least if it does not work out you can just install it on your home PC
and you are out nothing.



> Ben <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

40 is better than 10 and with its thermal mass would take a good part of the
day to cool off.
I was just thinking cold nights, while charging when you get home will heat
them up the power robbing cold would set in by morning.
We get a lot of cold wind in winter like many .... I have still to work on
tapping that wind for charging and heating power.
I live in a wind hot spot so charging a bank of bats at home while gone then
hooking the car to them at home they should equelise, YES?
Then charge the car bank from grid power to top it off, yes or no?



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at
> > least keep the battery at about 80 degrees. There are some water pipe he=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

On cheap inverters... UPS units are one source. If you are buying the
really cheap modified sinewave ones from Harbor freight or such... be
warned. The Harbor freight ones can't handle surges very well, and
the cooling fans don't tend to last very long (in outdoor conditions)
compare to a slighly more expensive one like a Xantrex Xpower. It's
about $80 for the harbor freight 1200 watt one... vs $200 for an
Xpower 1000 watt one... and from what I've seen, it's probably worth
it...

Z



> Randy Eckert <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I was reading a reveiw of a 900watt unit that ran 30min powering a PC now I
> > bet it has it's own fan ,but even not that is an easy fix,
> > Given the real run time of most home built ev's and what I would be using
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

here is the review
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47
and the company site
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/browse-by-category/intelligent-lcd-ups/CP1500AVRLCD.html
I like the pretty blue read out screen, plus with a long enough cable you
can monitor it on your PC using the soft ware that lets you set things up
the way you like.
It can be a PC backup any time the car is home.
As you see on the review site it is only $165 at newegg
sounds like a deal to me


> Ben <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Randy Eckert <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the batteries =

at or above 50% DOD.

I do not have the chart in front of me, but you could find it on the web =

somewhere. I think 100% charge battery temperature at 30 degrees F. causes =

the electrolyte to act like 50% DOD. So if you normally discharge to 50% =

DOD during your drive at 80 degrees F, at 30 degrees F this would be like =

75% DOD at 30 degrees.

The battery itself is not actually discharge to this level, but the current =

flow is reduce somewhat.

If you do not travel that far at speed, then the 40 degrees F tape will kee=
p =

you battery from freezing.

As I remember, if a battery is at 50% DOD at 80 F. and you let it expose to =

a temperature of 30 degrees, it will freeze. A battery at 100% State of =

Charge, the electrolyte will freeze at somewhere around 20 degrees.

Now if you remove all the water out of the electrolyte which is 5 parts of =

water (H2O) which is 1.0 specific gravity to 3 parts of sulfuric acid =

(H2SO4) which is 1.8 specific gravity, the battery being only sulfuric acid =

at 1.8 sg will freeze at 115 below zero.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Randy Eckert" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


40 is better than 10 and with its thermal mass would take a good part of the
day to cool off.
I was just thinking cold nights, while charging when you get home will heat
them up the power robbing cold would set in by morning.
We get a lot of cold wind in winter like many .... I have still to work on
tapping that wind for charging and heating power.
I live in a wind hot spot so charging a bank of bats at home while gone then
hooking the car to them at home they should equelise, YES?
Then charge the car bank from grid power to top it off, yes or no?



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In choosing a heat tape to use for batteries, you want one that will at
> > least keep the battery at about 80 degrees. There are some water pipe =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the batteries
> > at or above 50% DOD.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

I don't think it applies directly to all batteries, it's sort of a rule of
thumb.
At colder temperatures AGMs tend to lose less (available) capacity than
floodeds, but they still lose.

> Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >> It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the
> >> batteries
> >> at or above 50% DOD.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

Hello Matt,

The temperature statement I listed below which said, freeze at 20 degrees if 
battery is fully charge, should read -20 F degrees.

I found my data for AGM batteries, it is recommended not to store batteries 
below -25 to -35 F degrees as long they are fully charge.

Actually the fully charge electrolyte has a lower freezing point then this, 
but its best not to go below -25 to -35 F degrees which will still keep the 
electrolyte somewhat liquid.

Here is a chart on the freezing points for AGM batteries.

Voltage State of Charge Specific Gravity Frozen Solid

12.65 100% 1.265 -75 F.
12.45 75% 1.225 -55 F.
12.24 50% 1.190 -34 F.
12.06 25% 1.155 -16 F.
11.89 Discharge 1.120 -10 F.


Note that the 100 percent discharge value of AGM's at 11.89 volts is 1.120 
specific gravity while a flood battery is at 11.50 volts at 1.073 volts.

Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will 
have the twice the cycle life in then the southern states. We have one guy 
here that's going on 112 years.

Roland



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt C" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


> Does this apply to AGM batteries, or only flooded lead acid?
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > It depends how far you have to drive and if you want to keep the
> > > batteries
> > > at or above 50% DOD.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

Thanks for the info, you scared me with that typo. In winter here the 
temp is almost always above 0 F, and the average is around 30 F

I am planning on using an insulated and heated battery box. I would run 
the heaters while plugged into ac power, and use some kind of 
temperature control to keep the batteries at a happy temperature. 
Hopefully the insulation will keep the batteries warm while I'm at work.


How did he get his batteries to last 112 years!? 



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> >
> > Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt C" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?


> Thanks for the info, you scared me with that typo. In winter here the
> temp is almost always above 0 F, and the average is around 30 F
>
> I am planning on using an insulated and heated battery box. I would run
> the heaters while plugged into ac power, and use some kind of
> temperature control to keep the batteries at a happy temperature.
> Hopefully the insulation will keep the batteries warm while I'm at work.
>
>
> How did he get his batteries to last 112 years!? 

He charges him self every day with all fruit breakfast, does his walk every 
morning, does not smoke, drink, dresses smartly and is happy all the time.
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Actually the AGM batteries in the northern cooler states cycle life will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*



> Randy Eckert wrote:
> > What about heating the battery pack in the winter... say with those
> > wires you wrap your pipes with to keep them from freezing? At least
> > while it is at home.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*

have look at this one and tell me what you think, thanks
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Randy Eckert wrote:
> > > What about heating the battery pack in the winter... say with those
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Batteries in the passenger compartment?*



> Randy Eckert wrote:
> > have look at this one and tell me what you think, thanks
> > http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=47
> 
> ...


----------

