# HPEVS 144 Volt Systems



## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Hi All,

I know it's a long time coming, but the 144 volt controllers are here and we are shipping drive systems. The web site has been updated with all of the 144 volt dyno information for all of the motors it can be used with.

These will be shipped with our new generic software that will allow programming through the dash display and Orion BMS integration. No need for a handheld or programming station to set up the throttle or brake inputs. Many other features can also be setup through the dash. The instructions for the new software are also posted on the web site.


Brian


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

How is the Orion Integration done?


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

frodus said:


> How is the Orion Integration done?


 The controller and BMS are linking via CAN bus.

Brian


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I was wondering if the Elithion would work... i.e. how are the CAN messages set up?


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

frodus said:


> I was wondering if the Elithion would work... i.e. how are the CAN messages set up?



Right now it won't. It requires 2 CAN messages from the BMS, the Elithion only has 1 custom CAN message. Plus we are setup for 16 bit variables for the cell voltages, Elithion uses 8 bit.

We should have the custom messaging up on the web site soon.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Sweet, Thanks Brian!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Can the AC-20 safely/reliably spin to 8000rpm ?

Is there a document showing the Max safe rpm for various motor sizes?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

HPEVS said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I know it's a long time coming, but the 144 volt controllers are here and we are shipping drive systems. The web site has been updated with all of the 144 volt dyno information for all of the motors it can be used with.
> 
> ...


 Does the Orion have HVC (in addition to LVC) active during driving to cut back the controller to prevent over voltage of an individual cell due to regen (added protection beyond the User_Overvoltage parameter)? 

Great that some parameters can be changed through the display! Is the display the "spyglass", or has it changed also? Can you data log or display some parameters such as motor phase current and modulation depth?

Is the old PC Programming Station Software compatible with the new controller? The data logging feature in this software is very useful. Would be nice if an updated version was available for a tablet PC for dash display and logging at consumer software price level.

Sounds like a nice setup with the Orion!


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

tomofreno said:


> Does the Orion have HVC (in addition to LVC) active during driving to cut back the controller to prevent over voltage of an individual cell due to regen (added protection beyond the User_Overvoltage parameter)?
> 
> Great that some parameters can be changed through the display! Is the display the "spyglass", or has it changed also? Can you data log or display some parameters such as motor phase current and modulation depth?
> 
> ...


 Tom,

The controller will turn off the regen if the highest cells voltage exceeds a preset voltage (3.6 volts by default).

We have created a generic CAN message that can be used with a CAN to Bluetooth adapter and sent to the "Torque" app on a tablet. I'm still building on the list of variables to send out. I can add Modulation Depth to the list, RMS Current is already there.

Yes, the old PC Programming station and dongle will work with the new controllers, I still use one myself since I prefer the older 1314-4401 software over the 1314-4402.

Brian


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Brian, Do you have an information that shows the maximum rpm for different motor sizes, I wasn't aware that the Ac-20 could safely spin to 8000rpm, thanks to the new 144V controller.




Bowser330 said:


> Can the AC-20 safely/reliably spin to 8000rpm ?
> 
> Is there a document showing the Max safe rpm for various motor sizes?


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Bowser,

The controller is the limiting factor on motor RPM. All of our motors can run to 8000 RPM no problem.

Brian


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi Brian,

Sorry to post this question on this thread but I don't see another thread where it would get your attention. A friend is considering an AC-11 kit for a MC conversion. One place says it is the same as the AC-18 motor. I can't find performance data on either of those motors. Is it the same as the AC-15?

It comes with the 1236-6301. Will he be o.k. with a battery at 88V nominal and fully charged at 100V?

Thanks,

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Sorry to post this question on this thread but I don't see another thread where it would get your attention. A friend is considering an AC-11 kit for a MC conversion. One place says it is the same as the AC-18 motor. I can't find performance data on either of those motors. Is it the same as the AC-15?
> 
> ...


I'd like to see a reply for this too, as I emailed once for info on an AC12 for Scrape, but never received a reply...


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

Major,

AC11 & AC18 are not our motor models. The AC12 & AC15 are, you can find all of the performance curves on our website. 

The 1236-6301 controller will work at 88 volts nominal with a 105 volts max full charge voltage.

With that controller, I would go with the AC12 motor since it will produce more torque at low end with the 300 amp controller. If you went with the 1238-6501 controller, you could use the AC15.

Brian


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks Brian. I wonder where Thunderstruck got those #'s


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

The graph for an AC 12 at 144 volts is tasty.


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## toyolla2 (Jun 21, 2010)

HPEVS said:


> Major,
> 
> AC11 & AC18 are not our motor models. The AC12 & AC15 are, you can find all of the performance curves on our website.
> 
> ...


Thanks to TODDSHOTRODS for posting the link. I would like to ask Brian :

Why did they choose a V/Hz ratio for their AC-12 motor to intersect the battery voltage at 5000rpm ?

I noticed that consequently battery current falls from 431amps to 242.3 amps as speed transitions from 5000rpm to 8000rpm.

Surely a lower V/HZ with that same motor would preserve a slightly lower but more stable value of torque all the way to 7000rpm thus keeping the battery current clamped at 431 amps while so doing ? 

BTW I am in favor of HPEV's policy to adopt sub 150volt DC busses for amateur construction. A motor with an extended power band would complement that and encourage the adoption of a single ratio reducers. I venture to say that in 2013 an electric vehicle with a multi-ratio gearbox should impress nobody.


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

toyolla2 said:


> Thanks to TODDSHOTRODS for posting the link. I would like to ask Brian :
> 
> Why did they choose a V/Hz ratio for their AC-12 motor to intersect the battery voltage at 5000rpm ?
> 
> ...



Toyolla2,

The base speed is lower on the AC12, that's why the torque starts to fall off at 5000 RPM. The AC9 would gives you what you describe, less but flatter torque curve to 8000 RPM.

We do use fixed ratio transmissions in some applications, Wheego is a prime example. But with the lower voltage comes a tighter torque curve so shifting gears gives you lot's of pull out of the hole and highway speeds in the same package. Having 300+ volts gives you a flat torque curve to 10,000 to 15,000 RPM, i.e. Tesla. We just aren't going to go there.

Brian


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

HPEVS said:


> Having 300+ volts gives you a flat torque curve to 10,000 to 15,000 RPM


Are you saying its possible to run the AC12/15/20 @ 300V+?

Can the rotor and bearings be ordered for 10-15k RPM operation?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

HPEVS said:


> ...Having 300+ volts gives you a flat torque curve to 10,000 to 15,000 RPM, i.e. Tesla.* We just aren't going to go there.
> *
> Brian





Stiive said:


> Are you saying its possible to run the AC12/15/20 @ 300V+?
> 
> Can the rotor and bearings be ordered for 10-15k RPM operation?


I took it as he was saying they have no interest in developing it.

I wish though, because an AC12 at 300+ volts sounds like my dream motor for Scrape.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Guys... you can't just cram any old voltage and frequency into an AC motor thinking you can extend the flat part of the torque curve out to any RPM you like.

The rule of thumb is that iron losses go up at about the 1.6 power to frequency. In other words, if you double frequency (and voltage, to keep V/Hz constant) then iron losses treble.

I didn't find a spec for the AC-12's base speed on the HPEVS website, but if it is, e.g., a 240VAC motor rewound for 48VAC, then attempting to run it at 300V will result in ~19x more iron losses. As you might imagine, the motor ain't gonna last too long with that kind of abuse.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> The rule of thumb is that iron losses go up at about the 1.6 power to frequency. In other words, if you double frequency (and voltage, to keep V/Hz constant) then iron losses treble.
> ...
> if it is, e.g., a 240VAC motor rewound for 48VAC, then attempting to run it at 300V will result in ~19x more iron losses.


Which is exactly why motor design plays important role at high frequencies. Traditonal "industrial motors" have been designed to have overall good efficiency at 50 or 60 Hz, which may mean the frequency-dependent iron loss may be 5-10% of total losses (not being optimized more than that because at this frequency, copper loss prevails.) This kind of motor can take only some "overclocking" but not very much due to the reason you state.

On the other hand, so called "premium efficiency" motors have iron losses optimized further. It's a pretty small optimization at 50-60 Hz, but becomes very important when overclocking.

Then there are motors specifically designed for high frequencies.

"~19x more" is indeed a lot, but it still depends on what it is referred to. You need to put out the absolute number, otherwise this argument is meaningless. The total iron loss at, say, 200 Hz, may be 50% or 5% or 0.5% depending on the motor design. So what you need is an exact specification of this particular motor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...As you might imagine, the motor ain't gonna last too long with that kind of abuse.


You say that like it's a bad thing. 

If it gets me to the finish line first...


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## toyolla2 (Jun 21, 2010)

Brian,
I accept you will not be going to _10,000 to 15,000 RPM, i.e. Tesla_ since both Tritium and Curtis limit their output frequency to 300Hz (9000rpm). That said, I concur that the published AC-12 motor characteristic would see me reaching for the shifter to change up as the motor rpms go north of 5000.


So I looked at the AC-9 on your suggestion because I may be in the market at some point in the future and there is never enough discussion supporting a constructor's decision to choose a particular controller and motor. So I might make a few observations and open up the process.

For the AC-9 the V/HZ seems to be in the 0.4 region around [email protected] with continuous running but appears to rise towards 0.55 for transient operation at 450/650 Amps which is understandable because the greater resistive volt drop in the stator winding subtracts from the applied voltage and effectively lowers the rpm point (3000rpm) at which the V/Hz can be maintained because there is insufficient overhead voltage to counter the back EMF.
This motor has a V/Hz value exactly in the ball park and would pair well, I think, with the Curtis' 1238R - 7601 96Vdc @ 650A controller equipped with a cold plate. 

I would bank on the fact that against a 96Vdc input the effect of the same resistive volt drop would be halved so that V/Hz and therefore torque would be preserved out to 8000rpm. I am leaning towards a gearing set up to yield approx 60 mph @ 9000rpm.


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## toyolla2 (Jun 21, 2010)

Tesseract wrote

_Guys... you can't just cram any old voltage and frequency into an AC motor thinking you can extend the flat part of the torque curve out to any RPM you like._

That statement may have held water years ago, but have you checked in lately ? There was a time when AC motors of appalling efficiency and low price point were allowed into the market unchecked. 

Today things have tightened up considerably. At the moment *premium* efficiency IE3 machines are displacing the older *high* efficiency IE2 motors as part of Code for Europe, North America and Australia. This is exactly what Siwastaja was driving at, in an earlier post. As you might expect, to reach IE3, iron losses are diminished with thinner lams and longer stators. When I was recently viewing a SEW Eurodrive online catalog, I happened to notice that 2-pole machines in frame sizes above 3Hp have been phased out possibly for reasons of efficacy. Furthermore cage rotors are now specified to to be cast with copper rather than aluminum.

Sure, despite the expectation that iron hysterisis losses should rise directly with frequency whilst eddy current losses will go up with frequency squared, recent tests have shown that at 4 x frequency you don't appear to be getting all the loss you would expect by the simple test of measuring motor case temperature while under load. It is not to say that strangely the laws of physics no longer apply, on the contrary it's just that the coefficients for these losses have been significantly diminished by the manufacture of superior quality motors with improved magnetic structures. 

Weber, Coulomb and myself thrashed all this out on the AEVA website around June-July 2012. It was sparked off with a discussion on some preliminary work undertaken a year or two earlier by ACMOTOR "104v winding". My efforts are to ensure his work is given more prominence.

The message is to give second thoughts to those contemplating the purchase of somewhat oversized motors in order to guarantee a significant amount of torque over an rpm range which frequently tops out well below 5000 rpm. 

The message is to offer instead the more favorable alternative of rewiring or rewinding an existing machine for a lower V/Hz. The accomplishment of that particular activity has the potential to increase the nameplate *continuous power rating *by about 5 or 6 times with an 8 fold increase in frequency. There are rules on how best to do this which include the need to begin with a 4-pole motor and preferably one of recent manufacture. Overall gearing and the choice of battery voltage will also need addressing in ways that will be unfamiliar to most. Although there are many examples of motors wound for lower voltages they all show signs of the deeply ingrained 60Hz culture which really needs to be unravelled. On this score those 4-pole ACIM products from the now defunct Azure Dynamics immediately spring to mind. 

Examining a successful real world design like the EV1 prototype which ran a 4 pole machine to a base speed of 6600rpm at a frequency of 220Hz. At this point their inverter, running from a Pb-Acid battery supply of 320Vdc, would deliver 150Vac meaning that their motor needed to have a V/Hz of (150/220) = 0.68. For 96Vdc supply a value of about one third of this would be required. 

There appears to be a possible solution with the AC-9. This motor on 96Vdc should be capable of 16Hp at 130 amps when operated close to 9000 rpms. It would be advisable to have the case temperature closely monitored. An NTC thermistor buried in the winding is certainly to be recommended. 16 Hp doesn't sound much but the usual short term rating of perhaps up to 48Hp with limited bursts of 400Amp for under ten seconds should be available. 

All motors are subject to risk of overheating when a multi-ratio gearbox is attached and an inadvertant or not so inadvertant selection of third or fourth gear forces the motor to operate at high currents and low rpms for sustained periods of time. Naturally this will be even more critical for the downsized motor. For this reason it is a good idea to remove unwanted gearsets whenever possible or at least the relevant loose cog for each pair. 

Around the same cost as an AC-9 you could try 400Hertz.com to see what they have to offer. Their website shows several machines which may be suitable they are all ex-aircraft and are mostly 100Vac 400Hz as you would expect so the HP on the nameplate is what it is. The mechanical couplings are going to be unique - aren't they always - and may need mechanical rework.


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## toyolla2 (Jun 21, 2010)

Hoped you'd respond Brian. 

So either I am to assume you don't think the tests are worthwhile or you are unable to conduct the appropriate tests ?


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

toyolla2 said:


> Hoped you'd respond Brian.
> 
> So either I am to assume you don't think the tests are worthwhile or you are unable to conduct the appropriate tests ?


 We have run the AC9 on all the controllers we have available to us, all the way to 144 volts. The torque/speed and efficiency curves are on our website.

Brian


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Brian: I'm thinking about changing to the new 144 volt model controller.

What would be the price?

Thx, Miz


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## HPEVS (Jun 6, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Brian: I'm thinking about changing to the new 144 volt model controller.
> 
> What would be the price?
> 
> Thx, Miz



Hi Miz,

Send me an email, I don't like to conduct business on the forum.

Thx,
Brian


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