# Edison Batteries



## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

So, I searched the site for info on edison or iron-nickel batteries, came up empty. These seem like a possible solution to me, especialy considering the extremely long lifespan. Any thoughts/experiance/facts/theorys? Sorry about the esoteric questions folks, but I have to get this stuff out of the way, so I don't continue to waste time thinking about it if it just won't work.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

arftist said:


> So, I searched the site for info on edison or iron-nickel batteries, came up empty. These seem like a possible solution to me, especialy considering the extremely long lifespan. Any thoughts/experiance/facts/theorys? Sorry about the esoteric questions folks, but I have to get this stuff out of the way, so I don't continue to waste time thinking about it if it just won't work.


Hi arftist,

Yeah, Nickel Iron (NiFe) batteries. I have a few. Eagle-Picher made them in golf car size, 5 cell, 6 volt, 200 amp-hr batteries. Used in the Dodge TE-Van. Back in the early 1990s. A Chinese company (I think) makes them today, for stationary applications. About the only one I know of.

Those Eagle-Picher batteries were about 1.5 times Pb-acid in energy density, IIRC. But higher internal resistance, so power density wasn't so good. Had issues with hydration as well. Needed a central watering system.

I kinda feel the NiFe battery has morphed into the NiMHyd battery of today. NiCad would probably be a better bet for you.

Regards,

major


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for the responce. From what I understand, the iron- nickel batteries have an extremely long lifespan.(20 years or much longer does not seem uncommon) How long do ni-cads last?


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

arftist said:


> Thanks for the responce. From what I understand, the iron- nickel batteries have an extremely long lifespan.(20 years or much longer does not seem uncommon) How long do ni-cads last?


Properly cared for NIFE last 50 or more years (some are 100years) Wet Nicads last between 15 and 30 years depending on care.

There are a lot of folks that would like a proper NIFE, there were other more advanced cell designs possible to beef up capacity and discharge rates sadly they were never implimented - Much like the far superior lead acid batteries called Lead Cobalt batteries which lasted about 20 years when cared for.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> Properly cared for NIFE last 50 or more years (some are 100years) Wet Nicads last between 15 and 30 years depending on care.
> 
> There are a lot of folks that would like a proper NIFE, there were other more advanced cell designs possible to beef up capacity and discharge rates sadly they were never implimented - Much like the far superior lead acid batteries called Lead Cobalt batteries which lasted about 20 years when cared for.


Thats what I thought. So why are NiFe batteries not being used by owner/converters? They are available from Thundersky. Higher initial cost than lead-acid, but potential to last forever.
The idea of replacing a bunch of batteries every three or four years is a real hinderence for me.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

arftist said:


> Thats what I thought. So why are NiFe batteries not being used by owner/converters?


Because they cost like $400 each from beutilityfree.

The only way you'd want to use them is if you found old ones, and I don't think they show up that often.

The world could benefit from a new supplier of NiFes who won't price gouge. This is 100 year old technology that has no right to cost more than lithium.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Actually, i'd gladly pay $400 a battery if I didn't have to purchase them again for (potentially) decades-especially for smaller EVs of 48-72V. I've heard that they are incredibly robust, can be fast-charged without damage and can be run to a lower capacity without damage...

...but i'm also told that the biggest problem with regular NiFe is that they charge and discharge slower than LA and that they self-discharge at a higher rate-possibly a dealbreaker for less-powerful EVs, possibly not. Unfortunately I haven't found any hard facts on the subject yet-i'd love to see some comparison charts between LA and NiFe batteries if anyone out there has one BTW.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

And on a related note-why hasn't some company come out with a decent EV-rated NiMH? Surely that ridiculous Ovonics/Chevron Patenting fiasco only covers one particular battery chemistry-so why do we have no competition for what could be a huge market?

Heck, if some company would sell me some decent NiCds without Memory Effect i'd sell half the furniture in my house to get them. Who needs a bed anyway?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

order99 said:


> Actually, i'd gladly pay $400 a battery if I didn't have to purchase them again for (potentially) decades


But what you're getting is just a small notch up from lead acid performance, maybe less because supposedly they don't have as much peak power as lead. And Nife's supposedly waste as much as 40% of the electricity while charging them. So you will pay more on your electricity bill vs. a more effecient technology. So all you're gaining is lifespan. That's it.

I'd be willing to pay $400 for a lithium titanate battery (like Toshiba Scib, altairnano is probably history now) that would last 6,000+ cycles because at least there you would get performance somewhere between Nimh and lifepo4. But Nifes I'd only buy if I could get them cheaply and then only use them for off-grid storage of renewables.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd been thinking of getting off-grid sometime in the next two years myself-but if the NiFe wastes 40% getting charged then i'm wondering if it's worth it, PV panels aren't too efficient at generating that charge in the first place. Then again if the US ends up in Great Depression II i'd be unable to replace LA when they die...

BTW, Saab96, where are you getting your info? I don't doubt your data, but i'd like to see as comprehensive a breakdown as possible for NiFe before I commit to any projects. I'm not too worried about EV applications( I can always start with LA and upgrade later, especially at 60V or less and a superlight chassis) but if I get the scratch for my Off-Grid conversion i'll be making a much larger commitment Battery-wise...any Links you could throw my way, please?

I'm still half considering(for the EV) wiring a bunch of NiMH bicycle packs into 10V 20Ahr packs, then running 5 or 6 parallel strings of 10 batts- 50 or 60 itty-bitty packs for 50-60V and 200Ahr...for the sole purpose of sending the photos to the CEO of Chevron. 

Hey, I can dream...


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

order99 said:


> BTW, Saab96, where are you getting your info?


The wikipedia page has it right there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery

"Charge/discharge efficiency	65%"

BeUtilityfree says this about efficiency:

"
Q: How efficient are these batteries?

A: New, they are about 90 percent efficient. As they age they level off to about 80% efficiency until their useful life is up. Lead-acid batteries continually lose their battery capacity with age, so you waste less energy charging a 10 year old nickel iron than a 10 year old lead acid. If you have a back up generator then you also use far less fuel over the life of the battery.
"

They aren't talking about charging efficiency here. Just how deeply you can discharge and how long they can maintain their capacity. It doesn't surprise me that they would omit mentioning the achilles heel of these things.



Now, the newer Nifes are using lithium hydroxide instead of potassium hydroxide and that is supposed to help somewhere.

There actually is some research and development that has reached a dead-end on next-generation "super iron" batteries. Somebody should really pursue it further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_iron_battery

Also, vanadium redox batteries have a lot of potential, but there are no small-scale off-grid solutions using that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

I think all eyes are on EESTOR, unfortunately.



That being said, if you want to just deal with the energy losses during charging, you could try sidestepping BeUtilityFree and wheeling and dealing directly with the chinese battery manufacturers. Some of the same guys who make the lithium batteries also offer Nifes (and Nicads for that matter). It's just that nobody's tried to cut a group order with them. However, I'd be very surprised if their prices were anywhere near $400 per battery. BeUtilityFree has to be taking a big profit on them.

Zuhai makes them (as well as LifePo4's)

And Seiden (another familiar name to this forum)


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Just what I needed-thanks!


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

order99 said:


> Just what I needed-thanks!


I went ahead and asked for a price list from Zuhai. Maybe we'll get lucky. Like I said, if they are cheap enough, I'd be willing to get a pack and just deal with the charging inefficiency. But the price has to be right. I'm sure there are still a ton of antique Nickle-Iron batteries out there but finding them is next to impossible. But if you did, that would be the way to go.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Anyone interested in NIFE should read the bottom section of this page

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Congress:Member:Ian_Soutar

I have read on various pages potential constuction improvements for the NIFE that would dramatically improve its performance and capacity.

Even pulse charging a NIFE can improve charge efficiency and reduce gassing.

Also, if the chinese sell the NICDs for a heap o cash why would the NIFE be any different?

I would however love to get in on a group buy of either NICD or NIFE from chinaland if the price was right and the constuction acceptable.

Those who have contacts prod them and see what the real cost is, both of the above technologies are proven unlike lithium variations and would be of great use if the price point was right.

Cheers
Ryan


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

A 15x reduction in resistance and a 30% power boost? And he's offering to share the process with any manufacturer? 

If it's that good just release the info on PDF and see if anybody bites-there's GOT to be a manufacturer out there who would grab this and run. We're talking about an Open Source improvement to a Public Domain battery here! Publish the documents already!!!

Sigh...this is probably one of those 'too good to be true' articles isn't it?


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I think the main appeal of NiFe and NiCd is their ability to not be damaged by running them totally dead which is why they have such long life. At some point for some reason whether it be miscalculation or an unforeseen drain occurring I see more batteries suffer permanent damage from being run totally dead then anything else. I don't know about lithium titanate but most lithium technologies are very sensitive to not only deep discharge but over charging as well. One little "oops!" can be quite costly. Even NiMH does not like to be totally discharged all the time, it is much better than PbA though.*
*What will kill NiCd and NiFe is loss of electrolyte whether it is from over charging or neglect.*


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

order99 said:


> A 15x reduction in resistance and a 30% power boost? And he's offering to share the process with any manufacturer?
> 
> If it's that good just release the info on PDF and see if anybody bites-there's GOT to be a manufacturer out there who would grab this and run. We're talking about an Open Source improvement to a Public Domain battery here! Publish the documents already!!!
> 
> Sigh...this is probably one of those 'too good to be true' articles isn't it?


Don't be so sure about any of your assumptions. 

An example, Cobaltous sulphate in small amounts has been known for close to 60 years to slow the corrosion of the Positive plate in lead acid batteries and makes lead acid batteries last longer in hot climates, how often do you see battery manufacturers talking about their superior hot weather performance? The only battery company to use it openly was Atlas and they were based in middle america and their batteries never saw US shores.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/batteryconversions/message/266

Stirring methods for all forms of wet batteries have been mentioned open source and in patents http://www.electricauto.com/_pdfs/new_batt_Ecar_Whitepaper.pdf

the above mentions a stirring system for lead acid batteries to improve their performance. But again, how often do you see a stirring system for any type of battery? Occasionally lift trucks might have one for the 400+amphr varieties, but rarely stand alone.
Heck its hard to find a decent watering system.

But I digress, I think it might be something that will have to be experimented on DIY to get any benefit since the manufacturers aren't much interested.. yet anyway.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

So, here's what i'm hearing so far:

1) There are LOTS of really neat battery technologies out there.
2) I can't have ANY of them.
3) 

Depressing. It sounds like the only way to get Ultimate Battery Tech is to acquire multiple degrees in Chemistry and Engineering, design my own tech and then try to interest Sweden or Denmark in the design...after which I get caught smuggling my own batteries into the US , 'disappear' and everyone gets stuck with LA a while longer...

Okay, that sounds moribund even for me-excuse me...
-(COFFEE!!!)-
Ahhh....Kenya Dark Roast...much better. I'm going to assume that the NiFe breakthrough mentioned above is a manufacturing technique with no aftermarket implications(ie, no modding an existing Edison-style battery) so let's deal with the Tech we have...

In order to overcome the charge/discharge efficiency for NiFe for a stationary storage medium(off-grid house) the only alternative seems to be to generate enough power via Solar that the inefficiency won't matter, and have enough stored energy that the lower discharge becomes trivial. So the stationary solutions seem to be:

1) Lots of relatively inefficient PV cells or wait for better PV tech-either way is expensive but workable.
2) Stay on grid, make some spare change feeding power back into the grid, maintain a trickle charge for the NiFe stack and use the batts as reserves in case of blackout.
3) Cut power useage to the point it won't matter, so the NiFe are more than sufficient (doing this step regardless.).
4) Altfuel Generator to supplement the PV panels. Heck, I live near the Thousand Acre Wood and the owner (better known as Mom) wants deadwood cleared every year-maybe i'll try my hand at a Woodgas or Stirling generator, load it up with scrap and garbage twice a week!

Option 1 is pricey, options 2 and 3 are workable-and option 4 sounds FUN.

Okay, on to NiFe in an EV. I'm assuming that NiFe is only a little lighter than LA, it stores more power but due to resistance it's harder to charge/discharge, right? So in addressing the Charging difficulties we can:

1) Live with longer charging times and pay more, secure in the knowledge that we won't be paying for fresh batteries every 3-5 years (and saving Thousands of $$).
2) Find an optimal charge pattern that enhances efficiency of charge-Pulse charging has been mentioned-and STILL save money by not replacing batteries every 3-5 years.

And in addressing the Discharge problems...the only solution I can see is to find a way to minimize the Amp draw in the first place, a design light but sturdy and expansive enough to hold bulky NiFe packs. Probably a custom Trike chassis-which will be my dream design anyway-approaching but not exceeding minimum highway speeds and a one or two-person maximum seating.

I'm really intrigued by this old design-

http://www.rqriley.com/urba-e.html

I'm intrigued by the original schematic which bypasses a standard Controller entirely-the CVT method which keeps the motor RPM relatively consistent looks like it would really minimize Amp draw on hills, though regen will need a Compound motor. It makes me wonder if an existing CVT could be adapted to similar purpose on a lighter vehicle...i'm picking up these plans as soon as i'm employed again
(crosses fingers) 
if only because the plans will have a(no longer produced) CVT controller and a(outmoded) Volt-stepper Controller included-so with the ability to simply purchase a modern Controller I now have three Controller options!

One good thing about poverty-I get PLENTY of time to research and pre-design. Anybody who reads my Posts so far has already figured out that I theorize WAY beyond the limits of my feeble expertise-so feel free to point out any flaws in what i've posted so far, you'll be doing me a favor...

Coffee's gone, so i'm off to bed.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

saab96 said:


> I went ahead and asked for a price list from Zuhai. Maybe we'll get lucky. Like I said, if they are cheap enough, I'd be willing to get a pack and just deal with the charging inefficiency. But the price has to be right. I'm sure there are still a ton of antique Nickle-Iron batteries out there but finding them is next to impossible. But if you did, that would be the way to go.


Unfortunately, during the huge run up in scrap prices a few years ago, vast numbers of edison batteries were dug out of nooks and crannies and scrapped.The srap companies even advertised specificaly for those batteries. It may be possible to find some isolated ones somewhere still, but I think for our purposes, new is the only viable options.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

order99 said:


> So, here's what i'm hearing so far:
> 
> 1) There are LOTS of really neat battery technologies out there.
> 2) I can't have ANY of them.
> ...


Hmm, that actually sounds almost right, but I don't think its quite that dire, in the lead acid arena stirring electrolite does improve lifespan during charging and while sitting, that is known 100%. I think it shouldn't be real tough to drill a small hole in the bottom of each cell in a dry battery and install a fitting to cirulate the the acid or in your case "base" from bottom to top. It is a pain and finding a proper pump to handle acid or bases might be an issue but I think it would be a good experiment. Issue would be having 1 very small pump and line for each cell, 36 is quite irritating.

I have long wanted a way of clearing the sediment from a battery and perhaps someday I will become motivated enough by the blasted shorted cell issues I seem to get to impliment and test a homebrew electrolite circulating system just for the virtue of preventing the shorted cell failures that all of my failed batteries go through. Its too bad that I have never had a battery fail the right way, only with shorted cells.

Ah well, if you want something no one offers you need to DIY.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Just to update you guys, I got a rough price quote from China on NiFes. They offered me 3x the cost of lead. The BeUtilityFree guys are more like 4-5 times the cost of lead. I think the main problem here is the current cost of nickel vs. lead. It's probably possible to make your own NiFe batteries but unless you can find a cheaper source of nickel plates then you won't gain that much. Maybe someone can run some numbers on what it would cost in raw materials. The technology seems very simple.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I am tempted to build a battery and then see how well it works. NiFe can't be too hard to make. A sheet of Nickel and sheet of Iron, place in 30% Potassium Hydroxide and water. I would know the thickness and surface area of each sheet then do a capacity test. This would tell me roughly how many amp hours each square inch is worth. I could also test to see if there was any gain to using a thicker plate vs. surface area. Monitor heat and current curves, I've done this much on existing batteries already.*


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Some good information is in this thread
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/batteryconversions/message/179

And here
http://www.chemie.uni-regensburg.de/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/chembox_edison-e.htm

The below info was posted on another group as "historical information" and I have never tested it, so no idea if it works well enough to be a real battery.

Anyway this is the cheap method of making a suido Edison Battery


--------------

Iron (anode) Plate

To make the iron anode, first mix 6 1/4 grams of iron oxide with 1 1/4 gram of ammonium chloride, then add distilled water a drop at a time until a stiff
paste results. The mixture will give off ammonia gas and will turn to a
white color. Working quickly, smear the paste well into a 1½ x 6-inch piece
of No. 20 or 30 close mesh iron or copper wire screening.

It will take about a day for the paste to thoroughly set and harden on the
screen, or you can hasten it by placing it in an oven set at no more than
130°F. When dry, lay screen in a solution of ammonium chloride (12½ grams to
6 oz. of water), for about 1½ hours to harden it further. This completes the
anode plate.

Nickel (cathode) Plate

To make the nickel cathode, first mix 6 1/4 grams of nickel oxide with 1 1/4 gram of ammonium chloride, then add distilled water a drop at a time until a
stiff paste results. The mixture will give off ammonia gas. Form this plate
directly on the surface of a 1½ x 6-inch. piece of .015 inch or thicker
nickel screen, which has been cleaned thoroughly with emery cloth. Working
quickly, smear this paste well into a 1½ x 6-inch piece of No. 20 or 30
close-mesh nickel wire screening.

It will take about a day for this paste to thoroughly set and harden on the
screen, or you can hasten it by placing it in an oven set at no more than
130°F. When dry, lay screen in a solution of ammonium chloride (12½ grams to 6 oz. of water), for about 1½ hours to harden it further.

Fill a wide mouthed jar or a 1000 ml. Beaker with 32 oz. of distilled water.
Dissolve 9¼ grams of sodium hydroxide (lye) in this water and add 1 gram of
common table salt. Sodium hydroxide is hard on the hands and clothes in its concentrated form, so don't handle the crystals with your fingers and always add the crystals to the water slowly.

Mark the iron oxide plate negative and nickel oxide positive now to avoid
mistakes. Connect a battery charger or car storage battery to the plates,
negative to iron oxide plate and positive to the nickel oxide plate, also a
direct current ammeter or digital multi-meter and a l0-ohm 25-watt resister
is added in series with the forming current. Turn on the forming current and
adjust the variable resister so that only 1 ampere of forming current flows.
It is important that you observe polarity right at the first charge.
Connecting the negative lead to the iron oxide plate and the positive lead
to the nickel oxide plate. This charge must be (2 or 3 hours), because the
iron oxide plate must be converted to metallic iron. It doesn't matter if
the plates gas in this forming charge.

Attach the cathode and anode plates to a strip of wood to test them. Fill
another 13-oz. glass tumbler with about 9 oz. of distilled water and slowly
dissolve 3 oz. of sodium hydroxide in this to form the electrolyte of the
iron-nickel cell. Suspend the plates in this liquid. Now your cell is
complete. Cell voltage on open circuit will be right around 0.75 volts for
this iron-nickel Edison cell.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

I have a price quote from Zuhai for nickel-iron batteries. I was asking about an off-grid bank so it's $9,300 plus shipping for 48v of 400ah capacity. So for an EV, that would be 96v at 200ah. That's for an individual order. In a group buy maybe it would go down a little more. Let me know what you guys think of the price. I'm not very impressed.


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*I have to admit $9,300 is not a very impressive price. The above procedure has more than I realized but I could do a lot of research for $9,300 bucks! I thought NiFe cells were 1.2V but the above shows .75V?*


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Nate said:


> *I have to admit $9,300 is not a very impressive price. The above procedure has more than I realized but I could do a lot of research for $9,300 bucks! I thought NiFe cells were 1.2V but the above shows .75V?*


That cell is completely DIY assuming you have no access to the proper chemicals off the shelf.

A few things, 

1. That NIFE cell is cheaper using a mesh and paste like a lead battery and not solid metal, this may effect voltage but also may effect capacity.

2. The .75 volt is the steady state right after being formed, its capacity and voltage will probably migrate upward somewhat after cycling, in fact the cell was supposed to be "pulse charged" as part of the experiment to show its effects.

So without building it and cycling it properly I couldn't comment on what you would end up with after some time, it might be enough of a winner to be scaled up and used as a large scale battery but I haven't found anyone claiming to use it.

A few in that forum commented on changing the electrolite used for better results.

In any event the paste NIFE should be signifantly cheaper to make but as I stated no one has been proven to have used it for anything other than a test tube curiosity.

Good Luck


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*Lets say you have a thin plate of Nickel and a thin plate of iron each suspended in a 30% Potassium Hydroxide and water solution. Could you condition the plates with a current in solution or do you need to have them oxidized prior to placement?*

*Basically a metal oxide can be had by heating up the metal in a vacuum and injecting oxygen. It then becomes an oxide of that metal or has an oxide layer on the surface. I know this is more than most people can do but that is the basics of a pure metal oxide.*


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## kralc (Apr 2, 2009)

I know nothing of Thundersky, but NiFe batteries are available from China.
Eagle Pichard stopped making them when they went bankrupt ~'97

Some sources:
Seiden battery -China -manufacturer
http://www.chinabatterycenter.com/

*Sichuan Changhong Battery Co., Ltd. *Mianyang, Sichuan P.R. China -Exporter
http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/

BeUtilityFree, Inc. -US importer
1-888-320-9211
http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/pdf_files/Deka0919a.pdf

to buy from China look here:
http://www.binocularschina.com/guide/payment.html

A potassium hydroxide solution in NiFe batt and the electrodes do not become depleted. New electrolyte makes then new again. They have a lower power density, a low discharge rate and weigh more than other cells but can be discharged to almost zero and recover, making them last 20 years or more. Edison designed them for the Baker Electric car.

You might want to see if Alvin Snaper developed his designs. 
*http://www.designfax.net/archives/0401/0401yr.asp
* 
You make a choice here. A low power density that could last a long time or buying batteries every 5 years. Edison batteries are great for a home system. No decision about autos. But it is a one time expense.
jC


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

Is it a low power density or a low energy density? Power density I can work around. Energy density and cycle life are my most important discriminators.


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## kralc (Apr 2, 2009)

Is it a low power density or a low energy density?

Power density in Watts.

Edison batteries are heavier than other types (except maybe HD deep cycle batteries) 
Per charge you will get less total wattage from them, OTOH you can drain them down to zero (if your controller allows it). I consider that a wash really.
AFIK you can run them forever as long as you refresh the electrolyte when required. 
For cars IMO I think the choices are NiFe, flooded NiCd or Silver Zinc. NiFe for long life, NiCd for speed or acceleration with a reasonable life, and Silver Zinc for high speed, high power drain like a sports car or a dragster. (the first Bonneville E-Car record was set with a SiZn as a Pop Mech project. There was no previous record) But you better have big bucks to buy them, and I don't know of a current manufacturer. Military surplus is a source.
My feeling on Lithium (all types) is they are not developed enough yet. Or maybe it is just production reliability. There is still a flammability problem too. Nickle Metal Hydride appears to have a short life, so while really great in other aspects you will replace them way too often.
What do I want? A hydrogen power cell. But then I have to make hydrogen 
Back on topic (from memory) Highest power density is Lithium and NiMh, followed by NiCd. I don't have a number on SiZn but because of the higher voltage they should fall in above NiCd.
I see it as a total dollar question. So Edison comes first, might last 2 cars. NiCd second and deep cycle lead acid last. But that is just an opinion.

jC


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

kralc said:


> Power density in Watts.
> 
> jC


Hi kralc,

Power density is normally expressed in the units of watts per liter or watts per gram, depending if you're interested in volume or mass. I have seen places use w/l for power density and w/g for specific power. A watt is just a unit of power, regardless of the mass or volume.

Regards,

major


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*Personally I think being able to run a battery totally dead without damage is huge. I know of more batteries damaged due to being discharged to far. The NiFe seems like it should be a simple enough technology to figure out if the price is too high for purchase. Look at what Edison had to work with and was successful. NiCd has my vote as well; from my own experience it out performs standard PbA easily.*
*More time is needed for Lithium to prove its self to me, a lot of advertising hype from my perspective and NiMh life, I agree with kralc.*


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

Just to let you know, the rep from China kept spamming my inbox and even went so far as to IM me on yahoo unsolicited after I told her the group buy deal was off. I probably wouldn't have been as upset if she offered me significantly lower offers but she didn't. I've heard of other people getting this sort of treatment from these guys. So if you do open up communication with them, be prepared to write a filter to trash their email in the end because they will not take no for an answer.

Suffice to say, the limiting factor does seem to be the raw cost of nickel. I'd challenge anyone to see if they could DIY something for less cost.


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## blackpanther-st (Apr 4, 2009)

rmay635703 said:


> Hmm, that actually sounds almost right, but I don't think its quite that dire, in the lead acid arena stirring electrolite does improve lifespan during charging and while sitting, that is known 100%. I think it shouldn't be real tough to drill a small hole in the bottom of each cell in a dry battery and install a fitting to cirulate the the acid or in your case "base" from bottom to top. It is a pain and finding a proper pump to handle acid or bases might be an issue but I think it would be a good experiment. Issue would be having 1 very small pump and line for each cell, 36 is quite irritating.
> 
> I have long wanted a way of clearing the sediment from a battery and perhaps someday I will become motivated enough by the blasted shorted cell issues I seem to get to implement and test a homebrew electrolite circulating system just for the virtue of preventing the shorted cell failures that all of my failed batteries go through. Its too bad that I have never had a battery fail the right way, only with shorted cells.
> 
> Ah well, if you want something no one offers you need to DIY.


Some large format solar storage batteries already have sediment drains in them, but these batteries are far to big for EV use except maybe for a van with no cargo space. the point is that it is done, and much of this technowlagy is realy not all that dificult untill you try to refine it to it's max potential. the real problem is knowing what is currently patented and what has expired or has not been patented yet. 

This thought of the Edison bateries sounds interesting to me; does any one know what the eletrolite chemistry is?

I read the page some one linked to about the magnetic stering, this shuld actualy be farly simple as I recognise the prinsipal they are using. the same idea was exprimented with as a direct propusion system for submariens ( I beleave atomic). the system used the same principals which make our electric motors work, only instead of using a current carieing coper wire in a magnetic field, salt water carries current through it perpendicular to its own flow through a propusion tube having a strong magnetic field on the theird perpendicular axis. the salt water is propeled through the tube like a jet.


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## kralc (Apr 2, 2009)

<i>This thought of the Edison batteries sounds interesting to me; does any one know what the electrolyte chemistry is?</i>

The electrolyte for NiFe batteries is potassium hydroxide. The positive electrode consists of nickel (nickel hydroxide in Edison's version) and the negative of iron. Some later types used a sintered iron alloy, I found little info on this. There was an experiment using tightly rolled alloy sheets for electrodes, never went into production.
If you have some search time, Alvin Snaper (engineer) developed his case designs for NiFe batteries and kind of got side tracked. His small group patented an improved battery design but never continued with the NiFe development.
The thing with NiFe is the electrodes are not consumed, which is why they last almost forever.
A lead acid battery has surface changes on the plates which eventually coat the whole surface or bridge between the plates. If they flake off and fall down, draining and filtering the electrolyte would help, but the changes to the lead make it an one way road.
jC


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

To rmay635703


> Fill a wide mouthed jar or a 1000 ml. Beaker with 32 oz. of distilled water.
> Dissolve 9¼ grams of sodium hydroxide (lye) in this water and add 1 gram of
> common table salt. Sodium hydroxide is hard on the hands and clothes in its concentrated form, so don't handle the crystals with your fingers and always add the crystals to the water slowly.
> 
> ...


 Isn't the electrolyte of the nickel iron cell KOH potassium hydroxide? NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

KOH is preferred as it gives better performance, but NaOH or mix of those are sometimes used.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Has anyone tried contacting Exide Battery about the Edison batteries? They bought the rights from Edison to manufacture then but quit making them in the 70's, but they may still have some data on them.

As for using them in off-grid solar systems sounds appealing at fist with the possible long life span. But there is the problem or problems. Using off grid solar is extremely expensive to begin with. You end up paying 10 to 15 times more for a Kwh for the first five years up front in cash, After 5 years time to replace the batteries which using LA represents about 1/3 the cost of a system. So after 20 years with battery replacement you end up paying around 4 to 5 times more than just buying it from the POCO in the first place. 

Now as I see it if you were to use NiFe you have just escalated the cost big time. For one with a charge efficiency of 60% vs 90% of LA, you are going to have to have a much larger solar panel wattage which come with a higher price tag. Second the NiFe batteries are what 4 times as expensive as LA. So now you are looking at paying 30 times more for electricity for the next 20 years up front in cash. Sorry I do not see selling that idea to any of my clients who use off-grid at cell sites. 

Lastly for EV wouldn't the high internal resistance be a deal breaker? Correct me if I am wrong here but what good is a battery if the output voltage crashes during say a 1 C or higher discharge rate?


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

This guy doesn't seem to be getting that bad of range http://www.evalbum.com/299


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I wonder if it would be possible to build a 'sealed' NiFe battery that doesn't need the user to replace any electrolyte?

The specific power of the NiFe in the past is very poor, but that is not an issue if the design goal is an aerodynamic 150+ mile range runabout that tops out at 70 mph and only uses a 72V-96V system... the damned thing would last forever like a Mercedes 240D and perform similarly, if not worse.


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## Snakub (Sep 8, 2008)

> The specific power of the NiFe in the past is very poor, but that is not an issue if the design goal is an aerodynamic 150+ mile range runabout that tops out at 70 mph and only uses a 72V-96V system... the damned thing would last forever like a Mercedes 240D and perform similarly, if not worse.


 Hell yeah the setup you described would be totally sweet. I don't think replacing the electrolyte is that big of a deal but we should try getting our hands on the chemicals listed and just make a small one but I don't see in the description what is used as a separator between the plates or is one needed? Does each cell of the battery have a separate cell chamber where the electrolyte of each cell can't touch the other? and I wonder what kind of mask to use so we don't breath in any fumes?


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

NiFE sags terrible but actually is much more energy dense than FLA because the cells can be FULLY discharged (even reversed) without damage.

That means you can use all 200ahr (usually a little more), although maybe not at nominal voltage.

Also as long as you keep voltage higher than you need performance would not be an issue but on that same regard you would need an amazing DC DC and controller to tolerate the massive voltage swing, likely contactors would work best.

As for the electrolite any base will work, potassium is better, sodium stuff is easy to find (but not ideal)

Cheers
Ryan


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## exxcomm (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi folks,

I was referred here from solarpowerforum <dot> com where there's also a NiFe discussion going on.

The one thing I noticed and a poster there w/ Edison batteries confirmed is electrolyte/water loss is greatly mitigated by the use of an oil layer to keep evaporation and electrolyte degradation due to CO2 exposure at bay. Google "Edison Oil Bottle" and see that it's an OLD way to combat the losses. The poster in question used refrigeration oil.

While the (dis)charge losses may be high and the power delivery be lackluster, these shortcoings might be addressed w/ magnetic electrolyte stirring methods or alternate chemistrys. As was pointed out before, electrolyte stirring benefits ANY battery.
The earlier post that mentioned Ian Soutar on PESWiki should have said something about Dr. Robert O'Brien too as he is the one responsible for some interesting concepts and patents to do w/ the movement of electrolyte in a battery.

I read a little more info on the Prius forums about it (The O'Brien process) saying adding ?gallium? (I forget, but that sounds right) to the electrolyte and "magnetizing" the battery was the magic process.
While this seems far fetched, if it were to have some merit the NiFe battery would be the perfect candidate as all the plate materials are magnetic. Check out his patents on electrolyte stirring using magents. No guarantee it works....but.......

I wish I had a more complete understanding of chemistry as it would greatly help in "homebrewing" some experiments in this vein, but according to what I've read the charging reaction that happens between the plates is NiO becoming more complex NiO (like Ni2O3, 2 NiO4, etc.) by taking the O from ferrous oxide and transforming the FeO to pure iron. So even though the plate materials never mix w/ the electrolyte, there is still "plate swelling" during (dis)charge states. I'm looking into other alkaline battery metal chemistries to see if there are any that might "complimentary" to NiFe (silver/iron, nickel/zinc, etc.) to augment the NiFe weaknesses.

Right now I'm interested in making a large home bank of "homebrew" NiFe for grid backup @ the very least. Grid delivery has gotten dicey ever since a big wind knocked out a lot of the midwest grid for many days a couple years back.

While this might not go very far as EVs are concerned, some of the trumpted new technologies that might revolutionize battery tech are available to try out on a low-tech approach, e.g. Aerogels.
From what I understand, the huge amount of surface area aerogels would be able to offer for current delivery, and the reduced weight of the plate material would be very desirable for EV battery use.

This is the direction I'd like to try. 
While it may be a PITA, if I was able to add 10% to charge efficiency and subtract 10% from losses I think NiFe would be the perfect battery for me with minimal enviromental impact and long life.

Just my $0.02.....

Oh, the mention of cobalt earlier in the thread is a good one for NiFe as well. A 1979 Westinghouse report on NiFe of the time said that a 5% mix of that w/ the Nickel plate material made for much better battery longevity.


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I'd like to know how to make a bank of homebrew NiFe myself. I did recently come across an interesting publication concerning sealed NiFe batteries:

http://nickel-iron-battery.com/sealed-nickel-iron-battery.pdf

I also came across an interesting paragraph concerning NiFe batteries:

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/



> Microsec R&D Inc. is also doing research in Victoria BC Canada on the use of catalytic caps (containing platinum wool) for the battery cells that recombine the hydrogen and oxygen released during charging into water and allows it to drip back down into the cells. This may eliminate the need to water the batteries regularly. These caps are available for lead acid batteries but have a short lifespan due to the sulphur present in the sulphuric acid electrolyte. However the Nickel Iron chemistry contains no poisons for the platinum catalyst and they might last indefinitely with NiFe. *If this works it would open the way to manufacture sealed nickel iron batteries.* Attempts to create sealed Nickel Iron Batteries have so far not been found due to the release of hydrogen. This is the first public disclosure of the concept and it is open to everyone to play with without patenting issues holding back the research. This application would preclude the collection of hydrogen of course. -Ian Soutar of Victoria BC Canada holds the copyright (April 2010) for these ideas to be distributed for free public use subject to the restrictions of the GPL3.
> These concepts are presented in the spirit of the General Public Licence or GPL3 that is usually applied to software. Below is a link to the licencing concept to be used for the above ideas.
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html





A maintenance free sealed NiFe battery would last "forever", and be recyclable, which would be perfect for a low-impact vehicle...


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the info. I am still thinking about these batteries. One of the complaints people have about electric cars is the battery replacement every few years...
If these things could be manufactured 100 years ago, how hard would it be these days?


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

They are still heavy and bulky. They work but..............


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Back in the day, the battery cases were gallon glass jars. The plates were suspended in the jars. Old farm houses had a row of those cells-jars, stored under the house, in the cellar. I have seen many of these, but, no one knew anything about them, so, I never investigated. 

My dad used to buy or have given to him, the old Delco or Fairbanks 1 cylinder engine-gen sets. Try googling Vintage generator sets or something along those lines. 

This is what the Old Wincharger and Jacobs wind turbines charged for farm use. Might even find a collector that has a set of those glass jar batteries. 

I had a fairbanks set WITH Edison metal case batteries, in the original wooden bettery crates. Sold it to Jim Gaston at Gastons Resort on the White River North of Cotter Arkansas, back in '85.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

If the chemistry is known, it should be possible to manufacture these even using patent information so long as they are not for resale. Patents only apply to products to be sold - you can use any process on file with the patent office to make something for yourself.

Given how much our materials handling technology has improved, it seems like you ought to be able to home-brew batteries fairly inexpensively.

There are even ways around resale. You can allow someone else to purchase materials, then sell your time to them as a consultant to aid in construction. Do it too many times and you are retailing, though, and subject to the patent protections.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2010)

I am quite sure that the Edison Battery Patent does not apply after all this time. So jump right in and start building. I am sure you can find some good companies that can build you some custom containers for your new Edison Style Batteries. Just make them in a skinny format so folks can squeeze them in where needed. I'd like to see that but realistically I doubt that it will happen. It's nice to hear that you want to see it happen. 

Pete


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

arftist said:


> One of the complaints people have about electric cars is the battery replacement every few years...


LiFePO4 cells should last 10 years or so, the average life span of a vehicle, and at the current rate of improvement replacements will be even better.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

gottdi said:


> They are still heavy and bulky. They work but..............


They have a better usable energy density than lead, so they are no more heavy and bulky than lead, actually a little better.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2010)

rmay635703 said:


> They have a better usable energy density than lead, so they are no more heavy and bulky than lead, actually a little better.


True, but cost to manufacture is in the cost realm of lithium. Lithium being the better choice means nickel/iron won't be the choice of battery. Lithium are also sealed and require no watering. 

Lithium is the cats meow!


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

I would gladly trade the weight and range of lithium for peace of mind knowing that if my BMS, my charger or any other number of systems fail I cannot destroy my pack.

A modern edison pack would still drive my little car 50 miles (maybe more) like lead but I would have no worries on overcharging, overdischarging or individual cell issues that both lithium and lead share.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not using a BMS and haven't come close to destroying anything. No worries here.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> They have a better usable energy density than lead, so they are no more heavy and bulky than lead, actually a little better.


Thanks for pointing that out. 

They also have the ability to be overcharged without damage, and as a result of that, effectively offer more storage capacity. 

The more discussians I have about electric cars on other forums and in public, the clearer it becomes to me that one of the biggest issues J.Q. Public has with electric vehicles is the inevitable battery replacement cost. 

I am seriously considering starting an edison battery manufacturing plant. 
The market would consist of household use for co-generation/solar and convertion of heavier vehicles such as works trucks to electric.
With electric cars going mainstream this year, the market for residential co-gen should follow.

Comments welcome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Overcharging a battery doesn't give it any more capacity. The high self discharge of the Edison's isn't exactly a selling point. They won't sell for EV's, so your market would be mostly stationary storage. Most people are more concerned with EV range than battery life, especially when lithium should last around 10 years or more, the average life span of a passenger vehicle.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Overcharging a battery doesn't give it any more capacity. The high self discharge of the Edison's isn't exactly a selling point. They won't sell for EV's, so your market would be mostly stationary storage. Most people are more concerned with EV range than battery life, especially when lithium should last around 10 years or more, the average life span of a passenger vehicle.


Again, the most prevalent negative comment about electric vehicles on other forums I frequent is battery lifespan and replacement cost. 
If a higher voltage charge doesn't amount to more usable current, I apologise for my ignorance. I don't think the market consists of one size fits all, ultimate technology. The longevity of edison batteries is a huge selling point and a huge positive for their users. A lot of people want electric F-250s and Chevy 3500s. This market is a little different than the car market. Weight and extremely long range are not issues. Longevity is.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

arftist said:


> Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> I am seriously considering starting an edison battery manufacturing plant.
> The market would consist of household use for co-generation/solar and convertion of heavier vehicles such as works trucks to electric.
> ...


If you have the means by all means do, just make sure you have a variety of offerings as the military and the corporate interests would be your biggest buyers (as they were historically)

Also there are many proven and unproven improvements to NiFE over the years make sure you impliment them (or at least find ways to get them tested)

1. Eagle Pritchart sp? made the last modern NiFE an examination of their historic offering is a must

2. There have been workable water recombination systems around for decades definately worth a look on NiFE

3. Shape and size, something that fits everybodys battery boxes is likely a sucess

4. CNT carbon nano tubes have been shown to positively affect lead and lithium battery chemestries, the main problem with NiFE (and advantage) was the insolubility of the electrolite this could likely be solved with CNT and possibly increase the capacity, reduce resistance and reduce costs.

5. Nickle ain't cheap if another metal could be used with Iron and still have OK capacity you might find another winner with similar characteristics.

Good Luck
Ryan


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> 3. Shape and size, something that fits everybodys battery boxes is likely a sucess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Can you suggest a good starter size?


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

Battery boxes are custom for each application. Kind of hard to make one size fits all. I'd like to see long skinny batteries that can be stacked to fit in low places. I still don't like the Nickel Iron in cars only because of the need to keep them watered and monitored visually to be sure nothing is plugged up or leaking. Batteries need to be free from any maintenance to be a viable source suitable for everyone.


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Battery boxes are custom for each application. Kind of hard to make one size fits all. I'd like to see long skinny batteries that can be stacked to fit in low places. I still don't like the Nickel Iron in cars only because of the need to keep them watered and monitored visually to be sure nothing is plugged up or leaking. Batteries need to be free from any maintenance to be a viable source suitable for everyone.


I think sealed is a given at this point. I like the idea of short versus tall, also. And narrow is probably good too, for fitting reasons. Not too sure about stacking them, though. That might be more suited to lithium. Thankyou.

Any other input?

I am only going to build one size battery initialy. I realize it would be wonderful to have a large variety, but injection molds are expensive, even though I have the equipment to make them, time is still money.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Possibly source a company that makes the cases for 3 cell 6V Deep Cycle batteries ??

The original Edison's I had, were not big cells. They were metal case and single cell units. I would guess, 12" tall, and 6" wide and 2" thick ?? They were 2 volt cells.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Doesn't someone already sell NiMh small cells? If they do, it might be an "easy win" to just manufacture boxes that stack those cells in an array for higher voltage / amps?


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> They won't sell for EV's, so your market would be mostly stationary storage. Most people are more concerned with EV range than battery life, especially when lithium should last around 10 years or more, the average life span of a passenger vehicle.


They won't eh? http://www.evalbum.com/299

80 miles range isn't real bad (aledgedly at highway speeds as well)



> Can you suggest a good starter size?


You would want them to fit into the same space proporitionally as Trojan T-105's which are almost universally accepted as the battery box size to use.
The height is usually of less concern than the width and length. Generally as capacity goes up so does height.

So in other words you would want between 5 & 6 1.2volt cells to fit in the area of a 6v trojan T-105 area.

The trouble for most electric folks is that the aux battery will have to be a FLA and your speed control will have to operate independant of voltage and have no LV cutoff. (aka it will have a 12v supply voltage from a fla and the motor current from the edison pack) If you use a DC DC it will have to have a very wide operating voltage range.

The chargers on all nickel based batteries are troublesome (at least if you want higher efficiency) since the battery drops in voltage once it is about full, rather irritating behavior when moving from fla to nickle.

Good Luck
Ryan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rmay635703 said:


> They won't eh? http://www.evalbum.com/299
> 
> 80 miles range isn't real bad (aledgedly at highway speeds as well)


Sure that works if you want a 5000lb van. No mention of cost.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Doesn't someone already sell NiMh small cells? If they do, it might be an "easy win" to just manufacture boxes that stack those cells in an array for higher voltage / amps?


I've heard that small NiMH doesn't like being grouped together the way small Li cells can.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Doesn't someone already sell NiMh small cells? If they do, it might be an "easy win" to just manufacture boxes that stack those cells in an array for higher voltage / amps?


Except NiMh don't like to charge in parallel. Ask me how I know


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Sure that works if you want a 5000lb van. No mention of cost.


He mentions cost off a link on that page
http://tzev.com/1993_tevan_sticker_shock.html

of coarse the lead acid TEVAN was equally costly so not a good indicator of its actual cost.

That said a 180v lead sled on a 3500-4000 dodge caravan would still top around 5k or more lbs


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I've heard that small NiMH doesn't like being grouped together the way small Li cells can.


lol - you mean the children don't play well together?



major said:


> Except NiMh don't like to charge in parallel. Ask me how I know


Is it a cooling issue? Would it be possible to make sealed cells that could be immersed in coolant?

Now you guys have me really curious - are the materials necessary to construct these cells documented somewhere handy on the internet? If they really aren't that hard to make, I would LOVE to make a whole-house battery backup and get a mambo inverter to isolate our house from the grid. Our power goes out at least once each month - get really tired resetting clocks etc. but never pursued lead acid backups because they wear out. For temporary backup it seems like these cells would last forever.

Edit: Wikpedia says that the energy density of NiFe is only half that of lead acid (30 vs 60-75Wh/Kg)??? I thought that Edison cells were superior to Pb-acid? Oh, Edison cells are not the same chemistry as NiMh. Well, still a good possibility for home backup where weight doesn't matter.

I wonder if the chemistry of Edison could be helped with the foaming tricks tried by FireFly? Greater surface area might help overcome the slow reactivity.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Is it a cooling issue? Would it be possible to make sealed cells that could be immersed in coolant?


You might say that, but immersing a 20s2p D cell NiMh pack in a bucket of water didn't seem to mitigate the thermal event much at all  

Not that this has anything to do with NiFe batteries. Which I have used. And did see one of those fry due to electrolyte loss and overheat on charge when somebody (a student) wasn't careful. 

But the NiMh parallel charge problem is different. It has to do with the voltage characteristic on the cell at or near the end of charge. Some blip occurs which then starts a charge/discharge war with the parallel cell(s) ending in all the energy going into heat  Sorry I can't be technical about that. Makes for an exciting time when it happens in your garage 

major


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Awesome.

Looks like the cells are still being made in China (yes I'm slow, I think someone said that a few pages back) and can be ordered through these guys: http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe (probably posted somewhere else). If their advertising is accurate, they have cells in just about any size you could want.

So, aside from the fact that they aren't very much better than lead acid for energy density, what am I missing? Why aren't people using these for pickup conversions?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Availability, cost, high self discharge rates, maintenance.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Availability, cost, high self discharge rates, maintenance.


Ok, I get that you have to wait once you order them - but hey, they last 50 years so what's the rush? 

Cost - don't know, do you? Sending them an email for some high amp-hour quotes. Who knows if they'll answer, just an email address, right? But yeah, if they are more per Kw/hr than lead acid and LiIon, I guess it's kind of pointless unless you want 50 year battery life.

Self-discharge. Really? The articles I've read say something like 20% per month - high, but who leaves their car sit for a month?

Maintenance. Check water levels every 6 months or so. With a tilt-bed pickup that doesn't seem like it would be too hard.

There was also a warning about thermal runaway with constant voltage charging. That ought to be addressable with a programmable charger.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

For a 122 ah, (at a 100 hour discharge rate, useless for an EV), 12 volt pack, 143 lbs, $1010, not including shipping: http://www.beutilityfree.com/pdf_files/NiFeFlyer.pdf


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> For a 122 ah, (*at a 100 hour discharge rate*, useless for an EV), 12 volt pack, 143 lbs, $1010, not including shipping: http://www.beutilityfree.com/pdf_files/NiFeFlyer.pdf


Knew I was missing something important. How did Edison power cars with these things if they are limited to a 100hr discharge rate?

Edit: Ok, I've deciphered the discharge chart on the .pdf. You can discharge faster, but you do so at a lower output voltage from the battery. Thus, in practice the amp hours will be about half what is advertised. And, if I followed other threads this is what is known as the Peukert effect.

So, if I were to build a "forever vehicle" based around the Solitron 1 and an 11" HV motor, I would need 170 cells to max out the controller's capability. That would weigh 2,431 lbs and, if you can talk the sellers into their advertised 15% discount for bigger cells based on volume instead, would run about $15k for the batteries. Maintenance would be required twice a year to check electrolyte levels and balance the cells, which should otherwise last just about forever. Extrapolating from data from Cornelius's "S-10 EV" (carrying 1,500 lbs of lead-acid batteries) one might predict around a 100 mile range at 30mph if one accepts the premise that NiFe provides slightly better performance than Pb-acid per pound, and that for short sprints you could also get reasonably good accelleration with that setup (understanding that you are pushing around 2,500 lbs of batteries).

Is that valid reasoning? The price does seem high, but given that you might never need to replace them it might actually be reasonable.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Is it a cooling issue? Would it be possible to make sealed cells that could be immersed in coolant?


No NIMH has the problem all Nickle batteries have, once they are fully charged they DROP in voltage, if you put them in parallel the battery that becomes fully charged accepts more current than the ones that are not and self destructs



PhantomPholly said:


> Now you guys have me really curious - are the materials necessary to construct these cells documented somewhere handy on the internet? If they really aren't that hard to make, I would LOVE to make a whole-house battery backup and get a mambo inverter to isolate our house from the grid. Our power goes out at least once each month - get really tired resetting clocks etc. but never pursued lead acid backups because they wear out. For temporary backup it seems like these cells would last forever.
> 
> Edit: Wikpedia says that the energy density of NiFe is only half that of lead acid (30 vs 60-75Wh/Kg)??? I thought that Edison cells were superior to Pb-acid? Oh, Edison cells are not the same chemistry as NiMh. Well, still a good possibility for home backup where weight doesn't matter.


Yes but a lead acid can only be discharged to 50%, an edison cell can typically be discharged 100%. Also Edison cells GAIN capacity as they are used usually for the first year or two beyond their rated capacity on the side. Also the Eagle Edison batteries seemed to have better than 30wt hours, my guess is from better construction. From memory 30-50wthr/kg is the range on non-theoretical batteries, not sure what the theoretical max would be really.



PhantomPholly said:


> I wonder if the chemistry of Edison could be helped with the foaming tricks tried by FireFly? Greater surface area might help overcome the slow reactivity.


Yes it could be because the primary trouble is solubility in the electrolite, CNT's increase the batteries ability to accept charge in most every case


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Knew I was missing something important. How did Edison power cars with these things if they are limited to a 100hr discharge rate?


EV type edison batteries have no such limitation, Eagle offered them in the TEvan which ran C/1 and faster discharges


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Hello all, 

One thing you fellows need to know about NiFe cells is that they have a pretty poor cycle efficiency, at a little under 60%, and dont have a stunning rate of discharge either. 

This is the main reason why I dont recommend them for solar installations, because the need to upsize the array by 1/5th at least tends to blow the costs out, even before you pay a lot for the cells themselves. The low cell voltage means you need nearly twice as many of 'em, too. 

They are damn tough, and durable, though not quite as indestructible as some people think. If anyone in Tasmania or South-Eastern Australia is keen to play with some, I have some used but working DEAC (Deutch Edison Accumulatoren company, German made NiFe) cells that you can have for $1/kG, which is what they owe me after saving them from the scrap merchant, and you can have a play.

I only have about 15 or 20 good ones, though, which means you're running about 20-30V, as they are only 1.2V per cell float, 1.3 full charged. 

I also have an old book on DC current engineering from between the Wars, which has a chapter on them, which I can photocopy if anyone wants a look. It has details of how to mix the caustic electrolyte, etc etc, and some nice drawings of their internal workings. 

I have just bought a lot of LiFePO4, so you know where my bets are 

All the very best, chaps

Brett


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

PhantomPholly said:


> Cost - don't know, do you?


That is one of the negatives as they cost around $.60 to $1/wh or about 6 to 10 times FLA. This is mostly due to high raw material cost of nickel.

I know a lot of Solar folks have looked into them including myself, but once you weigh out the cost, poor charge efficiency, and high self discharge rates they just do not pan out as a good option.

Exide made them up till the 70's before they stopped manufacturing them because of poor sales and improved lead acid technology. Edison fared no better either as they let the patent expire, now anyone can make them.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Steel is almost as cheap as lead, and it seems like nickel plating would suffice (allowing you to use the same plates for both sides, just plating half). Anyone have an idea how much nickel plating would cost?


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## arftist (Mar 20, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Steel is almost as cheap as lead, and it seems like nickel plating would suffice (allowing you to use the same plates for both sides, just plating half). Anyone have an idea how much nickel plating would cost?


Acutaly steel is far cheaper than lead. Nickel is not cheap at all. 

I am currently investigating recovering nickel from stainless steel. I am not sure yet whether it will be viable or not.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

arftist said:


> Acutaly steel is far cheaper than lead.


While that maybe true for the raw ore, but steel is many times more expensive to work with as it takes a lot more energy and labor to cast and/or shape.


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Sunking said:


> While that maybe true for the raw ore, but steel is many times more expensive to work with as it takes a lot more energy and labor to cast and/or shape.


Indeed, this is true. here is an extract from 'Continuous Current Engineering by WC MacCall:

'the positive plate is built up of a number of steel tubes formed from a perforated ribbon with a lapped spiral seam. The active material material consistes of Nickel Hydroxide and thin flakes of nickel which are packed into the tubes in alternate layers. the tubes are then reinforced with seamless steel rings, and are flanged at both ends. they are clamped into contact with frames of cold rolled steel and then both the frames and the tubes heavily nickel plated.

The negative plate is built up of a number of rectangular pockets stamped from finely perforated nickelled steel ribbon. These are filled with the active material, which is powdered iron oxide. it is prepared from monoxide of Iron by eliminating the sulphur by alternate oxidations and reductions in in caustic potash. the method of formation is necessary to to make the iron susceptible to to electrolytic oxidation and reduction, ie the actions which occur within the cell in use. these pockets are inserted in a grid of cold rolled steel, heavily nickel plated. the plate is subjected to great pressure between dies which force them into intimate contact with the grid..." 

and on it goes. 

I hope I am conveying the correct impression that these things are hard to manufacture, and that they are not likley to be cheap. The amp hour efficiency of these bad boys is 80%, but the watt-hour efficiency is cited as between 55 and 60%. So you can either a) oversize the pack by a factor of 180%, spend a lot of cash, and wear an awful weight penalty to realize the apparent range that you expect from its Ah and nominal voltage ratings, or b) accept less range. 

add this to the cost of the fact that you make near half the energy that goes into them into heat, and you can understand that the search for better batteries is not a waste of time, and that the "perfect" "forever" battery was not discovered 100 years ago by Tommy Alva. I have some, and anyone who wants 'em can have them for a fifty. 

sincerely, 

B


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

There are two really good applications for Nickel-Iron batteries. Railroads and mines.

For rail roads they are used in signal lighting systems, just like any emergency power situation, the battery remains on an AC charger, and in the event of a power failure, the batteries supply emergency power. Nickel-Iron are excellent in that application because they take all kinds of abuse, last a long time, and little maintenance for the RR. In that application load current is very small with respect to discharge rate, and the RR could care less about efficiency, it just has to work as life safety is the priority.

Pretty much the same for lighting in mines. When the generators fails, the batteries take over.


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Sunking said:


> There are two really good applications for Nickel-Iron batteries. Railroads and mines.


Definitely good uses for 'em! I am sure there are plenty of stationary applications 
or heavy traction apps where they would do great.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

the Brutus said:


> Definitely good uses for 'em! I am sure there are plenty of stationary applications
> or heavy traction apps where they would do great.


Maybe, I do not know for sure. I just know the RR and Mining industries use to use them. People who find them and run across them always seem to come by them finding them in abandoned mines and RR signal huts. Personally I do not think they would be a good candidate for Traction Motor applications as they do not work well with high discharge rates or else us EV folks would be using them, didn't work out for Edison.


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Sunking said:


> Personally I do not think they would be a good candidate for Traction Motor applications as they do not work well with high discharge rates or else us EV folks would be using them, didn't work out for Edison.


Again, look at the eagle pritchart sets in the TEVan, Edison CAN be designed for high discharge rates with minimal capacity penalty but likely there is a lifespan penalty.

In other words as stated earlier edison batteries can be designed very heavy duty but with low charge discharge efficiencies (aka slow) or they can be designed with lightweight plates for high discharge and higher charge efficiency.

Modern edison batteries for ev's are not very well documented all the info that I have found focus's on only the old style edison batteries that were not really designed for high discharge rates.

I'm not saying that the modern versions were extremely efficient but they obviously had to be to output 200ahr at a 120amp discharge rate.

Cheers
Ryan


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

rmay635703 said:


> Modern edison batteries for ev's are not very well documented all the info that I have found focus's on only the old style edison batteries that were not really designed for high discharge rates.


You are right there is not a lot of documentation out there to be had. I first learned about them 10 or so years ago when I started doing some solar design. What was available then is about what you find now and they do not pan out back then or now for solar applications.

I have been in the Telco battery plant design for just over 30 years and have good contacts with Exide who was the last US company manufacturing them up to the 70's, and they do not even have very much data on them. Robert tells me it is buried on microfilm somewhere buried in archives, but nothing digitized for retrieval. All I can really get out of them is they were so expensive to manufacture, and such poor characteristics there was no demand for them back then or today.

As for the EV market I really do not see a future for them for many reasons, but the main reason is LFP batteries can be had for less and outperform them in every metric. Since LFP prices will go down even further while performance increases I do not see any future in the Edison battery other than maybe a niche application like RR signal or mining emergency lighting. In other words 8 track tapes. 

Don't believe I just said that. I am rebuilding a 69 GoaT and it will have a factory 8 Track Tape player.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

is not the problem with lithium its short 8-10 year life? and VERY high cost (more than nickle iron)

NIMH is ideal - 25 year lifespan or more and CHEAP but its not viable for us to make them (like the E95 nimh)

charge and discharge rate and self discharge are all irrelevant as long as you use it daily and it has "enough" discharge rate for the application.

I have a 96 voyager with a bad tranny I would so love to make Electric. its already 3600 pounds so I don't really care if it goes to 5000 pounds.

what kind of battery pack would I need to ASSURE me 65 miles range in the winter with the heat on at night? (54 mile commute to work)

I don't care about performance as long as its equal to my geo metro and my granny style driving behind it. (I max at 50mph never faster takes too much gas)

I was really hoping these nickle iron cells might be the ticket. :-(


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

nerys said:


> is not the problem with lithium its short 8-10 year life? and VERY high cost (more than nickle iron)
> 
> NIMH is ideal - 25 year lifespan or more and CHEAP but its not viable for us to make them (like the E95 nimh)
> 
> ...


I'm not the expert here, but have followed enough of these conversations to simply suggest you sell that vehicle and use the money to buy a lighter one for your "donor vehicle." It costs money to move a heavy vehicle around, so in the long run your goal will be cheaper.


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## nerys (Feb 6, 2011)

I know but its comfortable to drive (its one of the reasons I have not gotten rid of it) and it has enough SPACE to hold a battery pack some cargo and still let me transport 5 people.

either way moot if I can't get a viable battery pack :-(


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## gregor88 (Jul 12, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to show you all the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . We are trying to make an open source nickel iron battery. 

I am the one who did most of the research on the page, and having read some of the previous post, I am happy to hear that there is some desire to use these in electric vehicles.

To answer some of the issues raised:
The energy to weight ratio (kWh per kg) ca nbe greatly increased compared with the batteries that TEV van used. The main thing is to reduce the amount of electrolyte in the battery by using a so called starved electrolyte battery, which uses only a smidget of electrolyte. I have seen paper abstracts that describe sealed (no need to add water) batteries that have triple or so (IIRC) the energy to weight ratio of a flooded battery. I for get the exact figures but you may be able to find it through google scholar.

As for the price, that appears very manageable. Papers indicate that the battery *at the factory gate* (so including labor, assembly, etc.) for a modern nife battery is in the $60 per kWh range. Research indicates that the commodity prices of the active ingredients (nickel and iron) jive with this. So it's really quite reasonable. 

Note that if you buy a typical flooded lead acid battery retail (VRLA) that costs more than $200 per kWh typically. Presumably manufacturing costs compensate for the lower cost of lead, and perhaps the toxicity introduces problems.

The energy to weight ratio can also be quite high, just a matter of designing the battery right.

I invite you all, especially the guy who said he was interested in manufacturing these, to pitch in to the project on the wiki if you can.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

I doubt that the electrolyte is responsible for at least 2/3 of batt weight.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to mention we don't see that type of improvement with lead acid going from flooded to AGM.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

If you can produce the batteries at a reasonable cost per Kw/hr, people will buy them as home backups if nothing else.

Do it.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

As you say Phantompolly , home storage makes solar way more effective , if you cover 750 sq ft of roof you can generate 1500 kwa/month .
if I generate 1500 kwa it takes 100 gallons of diesel in theory , in my experience 200 gallons .


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

If I'm doing the math right, a 10Kw solar system actually produces about 2,000Kw/hrs per month averaged here in the Atlanta area. The parts for that size system retail for about $27k, would be something less with the socialist tax breaks and other bribes. Call it $20k installed, would save around $3-4k/yr for a 5-7 yr payback; less if rates go up dramatically.

Solar Cells, sorted by Watts/$
Plan on 2 banks of 24 x 215 Watt panels at a nominal 480v output
...tied to an 11.5Kw grid-tie inverter that can handle even peak voltage and wattage output...
Arrange the tiles as a 25 degree angled roof facing south, and you have a perfect "man-cave" workshop (around 24' x 36' floor area; almost 2 stories high on one side).

Did a spreadsheet of our energy usage over 5 years in a 3,000 sq. ft. slab home, converting gas "therms" to Kw/hrs, and found our total energy usage averages between 3,000-3,500 Kw/hrs/month. I've done a bunch but really never "superinsulated" because the construction of our home would make it difficult to retrofit. However, in our next home I would make the investment, and also dig up the back yard to make a "compromise" geo-thermal heat pump (e.g. bury a really big field of heat-transfer pipes about 10' deep, where the temp stays around 70 year-round). Plan is to roll the cost of the solar in with the mortgage along with the insulating and geo-thermal, hoping to achieve energy-neutrality with a grid-tie system. Full independence would require a very large bank of batteries (sometimes get cloudy months in the winter) and a generator, but the cost of those is still too high so will wait a few more years. Cheap Edison cells might tip the equation, though.

Of course, that doesn't include an energy budget for an electric car. However, just switching my car from petrol to grid electricity will be about an 80% energy cost and 50% energy use reduction, so that can wait a few more years while prices drop.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

with 2000 sq ft. you would be way over , love the heat transfer , that will just about obsolete the ac unit . I found thin film non UL connectors (no grid tie) for a .99/watt (Jan 2010) .; just need megawatt battery


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> However, in our next home I would make the investment, and also dig up the back yard to make a "compromise" geo-thermal heat pump (e.g. bury a really big field of heat-transfer pipes about 10' deep, where the temp stays around 70 year-round).


Why not just do a few vertical wells for lower ground temps, better cooling, instead of digging up a backyard?


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2011)

PhantomPholly said:


> If I'm doing the math right, a 10Kw solar system actually produces about 2,000Kw/hrs per month averaged here in the Atlanta area. The parts for that size system retail for about $27k, would be something less with the socialist tax breaks and other bribes. Call it $20k installed, would save around $3-4k/yr for a 5-7 yr payback; less if rates go up dramatically.
> 
> Solar Cells, sorted by Watts/$
> Plan on 2 banks of 24 x 215 Watt panels at a nominal 480v output
> ...



So where do you buy a 10KW solar system complete for $25K. I'd love to know that. We got one hell of a deal with our 7.2KW system but it was sure not $25k complete system. I'd add another 10K complete system if I could for that price. I'd have enough to sell the neighbors and all the electric cars I wanted. Damn.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"Did a spreadsheet of our energy usage over 5 years in a 3,000 sq. ft. slab home, converting gas "therms" to Kw/hrs, and found our total energy usage averages between 3,000-3,500 Kw/hrs/month. I've done a bunch but really never "superinsulated" because the construction of our home would make it difficult to retrofit. However, in our next home I would make the investment, and also dig up the back yard to make a "compromise" geo-thermal heat pump (e.g. bury a really big field of heat-transfer pipes about 10' deep, where the temp stays around 70 year-round). Plan is to roll the cost of the solar in with the mortgage along with the insulating and geo-thermal, hoping to achieve energy-neutrality with a grid-tie system. Full independence would require a very large bank of batteries (sometimes get cloudy months in the winter) and a generator, but the cost of those is still too high so will wait a few more years. Cheap Edison cells might tip the equation, though."

Whoa, 3000-3500kwh per month. I'm not sure how I could even consume that much electricity if I tried. Even with an electric car driving 1000 miles a month(about 200-300kwh for the car depending on which car and what type of batteries) I usually get under 150kwh a month in a non-cool/heat month. 86 therms in December with just over 200kwh that month($101 for both combined). Summer usage at 6-8 therms per month electricity at under $70/month or about 450kwh if I'm doing my math correctly with subtracting the taxes and fees before factoring the actual 13 cent per kwh summer electricity usage charges but its under 500kwh for sure. 2200sq foot 4 level split built in the 80's with air conditioning and furnace setup unchanged from the 80's when the equipment was installed, there is no high SEER A/C or 90+% efficient furnace here.

Help me figure out how you use 3000-3500kwh per month, do you have a refrigerator without a gasket or an air conditioner with ductwork leaking into the attic? With that much usage I'd spend the $100-400 on an energy audit that includes a blower door and thermal scan and find the best fixes for your insulation and air leakage problems. All I did was fix air leakage problems and only have R11 fiberglass walls and 7" of cellulose in the attic. I plan to improve the attic and do a little more air sealing up there to improve where I am now but your numbers are frightening to me. Conservation will save you a ton on your solar setup or at least make its monetary gains that much more handsome.

As far as your geothermal "compromise" system, its not going to be worth it without getting a heat pump to actually use that underground energy well, but if you do it right you should have about 600 foot per nominal ton buried 6 feet deep, 10 is overkill. Depending on your natural gas prices(if its available), you might be better off just using that but fix your homes envelope first and get an appropriately sized equipment for the heating and cooling loads(not oversized) after you've done your retrofits. With the excessive usage you are discussing it would be worth it to tear your walls, flooring, and attic ceiling out and add the appropriate amount of insulation.

...for your sake I'm really hoping you did your math wrong.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm around 300 kwh's a month, with my EV. Of course I heat with wood, and because I live in the woods in central NY my A/C needs are pretty minimal. I don't think I've ever run my A/C for more than one hour in a day, and that's rare. Shade is good  Not so good for solar though


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> with 2000 sq ft. you would be way over , love the heat transfer , that will just about obsolete the ac unit . I found thin film non UL connectors (no grid tie) for a .99/watt (Jan 2010) .; just need megawatt battery


Roger on the megawatt battery - those bastages are hiding them!

Not understanding what you mean about sq. ft. vs heat transfer. I expect to have over an acre of land available for geothermal; solar cells would only be about 750' sq.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

That was pipes over an area vers a well . trenching is cheaper also .


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> So where do you buy a 10KW solar system complete for $25K. I'd love to know that. We got one hell of a deal with our 7.2KW system but it was sure not $25k complete system. I'd add another 10K complete system if I could for that price. I'd have enough to sell the neighbors and all the electric cars I wanted. Damn.


Prices were there with the links. Panels and inverters are the major expenses - no I did not include "installation" in the price but imagine you can find someone or teach yourself if you are motivated. The wiring really isn't that difficult - two sets of panels connected in series, hooked in parallel to dedicated connect points. Connect the inverter to your box, go enjoy solar goodness.

Again, the $27k was list price for the components. There are currently both State and Federal incentives which, while capped, would doubtless at least pay for the install. I'm assuming something like a simple flat roof as install location, or perhaps simple poles pounded into dirt in your back yard for the panels.

Best part is the prices keep coming down....


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2011)

> Again, the $27k was list price for the components.


I saw prices but $27K even at company wholesale prices, is pretty damn good. List price is usually called Manufacturers suggested retail price. Or in other words the highest stated that it should be sold for then you have what they want to sell it for which is usually less so they call it a sale. Then they have mark down prices from there but they still make a good profit. So the prices WE need to see are the prices WE pay. Installing is not difficult. Installing is not that expensive either. 

I'd love to find a 10KW system for $27K. Id be on that in a flash.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

gottdi said:


> I'd love to find a 10KW system for $27K. Id be on that in a flash.


That shouldn't be tough. Panels have long been under $2/watt, for a while they were under $1. I've seen full systems advertised at $2.20/watt, which easily fits your specs if you're not counting installation. It's my understanding that typical installation costs can be 50% of the project. When I spring for mine I plan for it to be mostly DIY.

I like to keep tabs on prices here: http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm


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## gregor88 (Jul 12, 2011)

In reply to some of the people who expressed doubt that the batteries could be lightened: 
The theoretical energy to weight ratio is about 182 Wh/kg for the nickel iron chemistry reactants alone. And the efficiency with which active materials can be used is much higher than it is in lithium ion and many other batteries. The nickel electrode active material can be used with nearly 100% efficiency, and the iron similarly. 
So then there are all the other bits and pieces that need to be added to the battery and tend to weigh it down: 
electrolyte 
casing 
additives to the active material (can be around 15% by weight if you want to design it that way) 
Then there is the discharge efficiency, which reduces the net amount of energy you get to the load. Probably around 80% but I have never seen any direct measurements of this for the NiFe chemistry, only the product of the charge and discharge efficiencies is around 65% for a well designed battery and the charge efficiency is oft quoted at 80%, so calculate from that. 
In a sealed starved electrolyte design you get these benefits: 
- The casing could get lighter because spill of electrolyte is no longer a problem, but it can get thicker because it has to stand some pressure, so remains to be seen which way this will go 
-In a flooded unsealed cell there is usually a substantial amount of extra electrolyte, because you need to have some buffer there to tide you over between the points when you top up the battery, and that adds a lot of weight. 
- In a flooded cell there may not be a separator, the plates are far apart to ensure they do not ever touch due to warping etc. It's cheaper to put them far apart than to use a separator. The intervening space is filled with electrolyte. 
- Also, flooded cells usually employ pocket plate electrode design. Fibermetal plaques save a lot of weight in comparison although they cost a bit more. 
I had a look on google scholar but I can't find the paper again now. It is true that it may not have been triple, but that is just what I recall. They were deliberately trying to push the envelope to make it lighter whereas flooded cells in stationary applications don't care how much they weigh, so it should be no surprise that they made large gains. 
BTW for comparison, lead acid has a theoretical energy density of 103.8 wh/kg for the reactants alone. So NiFe is inherently superior by quite a ways in that regard. Sorry, the forum software is garbling my message by removing my formatting, the lack of space between paragraphs is not my fault.


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## gregor88 (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh, plus you can actually use the full capacity, whereas that is not the case with lead acid.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> That shouldn't be tough. Panels have long been under $2/watt, for a while they were under $1. I've seen full systems advertised at $2.20/watt, which easily fits your specs if you're not counting installation. It's my understanding that typical installation costs can be 50% of the project. When I spring for mine I plan for it to be mostly DIY.
> 
> I like to keep tabs on prices here: http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm


Holy cow Batman, entire 8.85Kw system for $21,488! ($2.42/watt)

Or, if you're feeling flush, a 123.9KW Grid-Tie Solar Power System ($2.24 per watt!) for a measley *$278,578.00.... *


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## EVmot (Sep 19, 2010)

Does someone knows how long does it take to charge 12/50ah edison battery ?. Or better, what would be the fastest way to charge the battery and how much time would it take to recharge it.

The charger is limited to 400W output.

Regards!


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## Nate (Jul 10, 2008)

*12V at 50Ah is 600Wh, if you have a Kill-a-Watt meter run the charger till it reads 1000Wh and this would count all losses. 1000Wh is 40% over rated capacity and is quite high for losses but NiFe can handle over-charge. Then run your battery and note how much power was used or how long it ran then recharge to 800Wh and see if your capacity is the same or less on the next use cycle. If you want to experiment then use the same load, cut battery off at same voltage and time with a stop watch.*


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## CaptianNemo2001 (Sep 11, 2012)

Anyone know were I can locate detailed info on Edison G and H cells. Using google I can dig up info on the B-E cells but then I hit the public domain wall and that's that without digging into vast Libraries.

I have been slowing trying to make a chart showing ALL of Edison's NiFe battery's from the first lab battery onwards. Showing amp hour to noting what changed in the design of the battery between models. I finally made it here to the site and I can dig up my sources and what I have so far as I wrote a paper on early Edison NiFe for a class. 

NEMO.


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## JZ02182 (Dec 24, 2013)

rmay635703 said:


> Fill a wide mouthed jar or a 1000 ml. Beaker with 32 oz. of distilled water.
> Dissolve 9¼ grams of sodium hydroxide (lye) in this water and add 1 gram of
> common table salt. Sodium hydroxide is hard on the hands and clothes in its concentrated form, so don't handle the crystals with your fingers and always add the crystals to the w
> 
> ...


Thank you for the very detail procedure. A question in the test build you still used sodium hydroxide. Is this for the test and you would replace with KOH for final build? Thanks again.
JZ


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JZ02182 said:


> Thank you for the very detail procedure. A question in the test build you still used sodium hydroxide. Is this for the test and you would replace with KOH for final build? Thanks again.
> JZ


Potassium hydroxide is the correct electrolyte for nickel iron. I'd not use sodium hydroxide unless you verify it with other sources. It sounds funny to me and it appeared that he just pasted in that section of his post. I have seen others confuse the two bases.


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## JZ02182 (Dec 24, 2013)

major said:


> Potassium hydroxide is the correct electrolyte for nickel iron. I'd not use sodium hydroxide unless you verify it with other sources. It sounds funny to me and it appeared that he just pasted in that section of his post. I have seen others confuse the two bases.


Figured he may be using it to harden the paste from the initial plate assemble and the typo in final build. I'll use my KOH in the battery.


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