# WarP 11" HV performance graph



## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I have purchased 3 WarP 11" HV motors that are in Jim Husted's shop now. I have some the test results from the Net-Gain factory. They tested them at ONLY 72V and maximum 590 Amps.
> <snip>...so I made a graph based on the available data:
> 
> I have no idea if this graph will prove in real-life but I can't do better because of the lack of information.
> ...


Can you send the input data file so Icanrun it through my motor model?
Thanks?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

You can weaken the field of a series motor by using a diverter resistor. This causes the back emf to drop so the armature draws more current and accelerates. I have this facility on my compound motor. I'm sure the motor experts will be able to give more data on the subject. I'd be very concerned at buying a motor thats only tested to what.......1/4 of its rating? my 2 cents.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks Jack



jackbauer said:


> ...*I'd be very concerned at buying a motor thats only tested to what.......1/4 of its rating? my 2 cents.*


Give me a alternative for high power and I'll buy it... 

It's sad but the current EV market provides no good product reviews or tests. I already have the Dual Kostov 11" and I know what it does. As far as I know this are the only performance 11" DC motors available.

When I invested over $40k in various components (batteries, BMS, charger...) I had no clue what I was buying (except for the specs claimed by the producer). There are simply no alternatives. But a change is happening with some good vendors and customer reviews so I'm optimistic.

There are just too few racers out there to have more data for the performance parts. Hell, I think that only a couple of guys race with lithium batteries...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Crodriver my friend you are a pioneer!

Thank you for this data and being one of the few to invest in the performance and help the rest of us with your findings

CHEERS!


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

> My motor will probably perform better than that because Jim is building in some of his performance parts.


Did you asked him to snap some pictures? Will it be a Siamese 11 version with one large shaft?


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## elmerfud (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm newish to EV motors. Is that a single, stock Warp 11 motor ?

How long will it run at those power levels before it overheats ?

What is the maximum continuous power rating of a Warp 11 ?

I too find it very hard to a) find good high power electric motors and b) get good specs.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

elmerfud said:


> I'm newish to EV motors. Is that a single, stock Warp 11 motor ?
> 
> How long will it run at those power levels before it overheats ?
> 
> ...


This graph is the best that you can get. And it is not accurate at all since I made it without seeing the motor - I just used some data the manufacturer gave me. He recorded the data by running a single, stock motor on the dyno at 72V.

The rest is just basic mathematics... 

No one knows if the graph represents real life behavior of the motor. I have purchased three of these and I will test them when I get them so we'll know more.

Kostov motors tests their motors quite good so you can take a look.

http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmo.../seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicleconversions/

I also have the dual 11" from Kostov so I will compare them


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


>


Thank you for the graph CroDriver. 

The graph might be even more accurate if you didnt limit the amps to 597A from 0-5000rpm...

Instead you should maybe graph what it looks like in phases...
Example:***
0-1000rpm = 1400A = 563Nm
1000-3000 = 1000A = 395Nm
3000-5000 = 597A = 233Nm
etc.
etc.
This will not increase peak power but it will increase area under the curve and show more horsepower at lower rpms since:
Horsepower(hp) = Torque (ftlbs) * RPM/5252

***Note: Torque figures pulled from: http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp9.php


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## elmerfud (Oct 29, 2008)

This website has data for the Warp 11 motors, but it doesn't coincide with anything that you have in your data unless you data was short term power and the other data is continuous.

http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html

There Warp 11 HV grap shows a maximum of 35 HP.

http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_20_WarP_11_Graph.jpg


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

elmerfud said:


> This website has data for the Warp 11 motors, but it doesn't coincide with anything that you have in your data unless you data was short term power and the other data is continuous.
> 
> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
> 
> ...


Elmer, look at it this way...

Higher voltage allows you to pull more amps at a higher rpm....

Amps are relative to torque, the more amps the more torque...

So higher voltage allows you to pull more torque at higher rpms...

Horsepower = Torque * Rpm/Constant

So per the formula, higher Torque @ higher rpms will generate higher horsepower...

The graphs you provided were at 72V, Crodriver is running more than 4X as much voltage than that.....


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Listen to Bowser 
Don’t expect to do 50.000km with one brush set if running much around +1000A.

zw


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thank you for the graph CroDriver.
> 
> The graph might be even more accurate if you didnt limit the amps to 597A from 0-5000rpm...
> 
> ...


The problem is that we don't have any data above 600 Amps and I can't predict how efficient the motor will be at that currents since it seems like eff drops quite hard with rising current. 

This may help



NetGain guy said:


> Volts and RPMs are nearly linear, so doubling the voltage will double the RPMs. Torque will remain the same if the amps don't change.....





elmerfud said:


> This website has data for the Warp 11 motors, but it doesn't coincide with anything that you have in your data unless you data was short term power and the other data is continuous.
> 
> 
> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
> ...


I have some stats I got directly from NetGain. 

Jim Husted is working on the motors now. When he gives me some data about the wire size and windings I can make a better graph


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Jim Husted is working on the motors now. When he gives me some data about the wire size and windings I can make a better graph


any updates from Jim?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> any updates from Jim?


Not yet. 

I asked him to take some photos. I should get them soon.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Not yet.
> 
> I asked him to take some photos. I should get them soon.


Thanks for the update bro. I hope those motors turnout to be little monsters...better get some cryo-treated gears and a crazy rear-end!!

Have you thought about possible going AWD through the transmission? You could probably use an AWD setup from a turbodiesel truck which are known to handle up to 1000ftlbs...The low profile of the E-motors would allow it all to fit nicely in a modified car unibody....


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thanks for the update bro. I hope those motors turnout to be little monsters...better get some cryo-treated gears and a crazy rear-end!!
> 
> Have you thought about possible going AWD through the transmission? You could probably use an AWD setup from a turbodiesel truck which are known to handle up to 1000ftlbs...The low profile of the E-motors would allow it all to fit nicely in a modified car unibody....


I'm expecting 2000ftlbs out of two 11" HV motors

I want to reduce weight and wasted space in this car so I'm keeping it "simple". 

I think that there is no need for gearing with a MW of battery power. Is that term ever been used in a car? MW? 

I could get used to it


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

There ain't many 1300 HP cars around...


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Sometimes Zillas are called "MegaWatt" controllers (actually it's about 0.7 MW).

On the gearing thing, even the 1000+ hp Bugatti Veyron, and the 315 mph electric Buckeye Bullet have multiple gear ratios. I think it is more a question of how fast a top speed do you want? If you gear even a powerful car for max top speed you'll hurt low speed acceleration, and vice versa.


CroDriver said:


> ... I think that there is no need for gearing with a MW of battery power. Is that term ever been used in a car? MW?  ...


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Sometimes Zillas are called "MegaWatt" controllers (actually it's about 0.7 MW).
> 
> On the gearing thing, even the 1000+ hp Bugatti Veyron, and the 315 mph electric Buckeye Bullet have multiple gear ratios. I think it is more a question of how fast a top speed do you want? If you gear even a powerful car for max top speed you'll hurt low speed acceleration, and vice versa.


Its also a question about efficiency and since most drivers have 2 normal driving speeds a city and a highway, if you had 2 gears you could maximize the efficiency of your overall mileage....

However, another thing to note is that even though there are transmissions that can handle 1000ftlbs and can be built for 2000ftlbs it will probably be really expensive AND may not even handle it, since this isnt a 2000ftlbs curve this is a 2000ftlb spike at 1rpm!

I am not planning on making anything with that much power so I will need a transmission to give me some mechanical advantage


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I'd be very concerned at buying a motor thats only tested to what.......1/4 of its rating? my 2 cents.


That's pretty much what we do with all those forklift motors


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thank you for the graph CroDriver.
> 
> The graph might be even more accurate if you didnt limit the amps to 597A from 0-5000rpm...
> 
> ...


The HV controllers I have seen for the Warp11 HV start at 1000 amps. Does that mean that you would need 1000A at 280V? Or would it be less becouse the voltage is increased? Or what about 336V still 1000 amps?

For example wouldn't the Warp 11 at 144V 2000Amps be equal to the 11HV at 288V 1000 amps. Just trying to figure out how someone would build a battery pack large enough to handle such large amp draws at that high voltage.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Kelmark said:


> For example wouldn't the Warp 11 at 144V 2000Amps be equal to the 11HV at 288V 1000 amps?


Hi Kel,

Obviously the power from the battery at 144V, 2000A is equal to 288V, 1000A. And if directly connected to the same motor loaded to draw the respective current, then, approximately, that motor at 144V, 2000A would run half speed at twice torque compared to 288V, 1000A. But motor power would be the same, approximately.

But, I believe that the Warp11 is a different motor design than the 11HV. To my knowledge, the performance specs have not been published for the 11HV. Then the above scenario of speed and torque will likely not apply.



> Just trying to figure out how someone would build a battery pack large enough to handle such large amp draws at that high voltage.


It's called money 

Regards,

major


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Kel,
> 
> Obviously the power from the battery at 144V, 2000A is equal to 288V, 1000A. And if directly connected to the same motor loaded to draw the respective current, then, approximately, that motor at 144V, 2000A would run half speed at twice torque compared to 288V, 1000A. But motor power would be the same, approximately.
> 
> ...


After reading myself a little smarter I saw that when running at higher voltages the max draw from the batteries is less than 1000A, closer to 750A. Also I took a drive down to Walton, KS. (EV Blue) And took a ride in a El Camino with the Warp 11 HV with Netgains new 1400A controller it was quite the experience!  It put the stock 350 to shame... and while I watched the battery amps it went to 850A for about 1 second. Wayne said he was taking it easy on it but it was still impressive!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Kelmark said:


> After reading myself a little smarter I saw that when running at higher voltages the max draw from the batteries is less than 1000A, closer to 750A. Also I took a drive down to Walton, KS. (EV Blue) And took a ride in a El Camino with the Warp 11 HV with Netgains new 1400A controller it was quite the experience!  It put the stock 350 to shame... and while I watched the battery amps it went to 850A for about 1 second. Wayne said he was taking it easy on it but it was still impressive!


Please do tell us more about this EV with Warp11HV and warp-core controller...

specifically about the battery amps at higher rpms/speeds.

Thanks


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Please do tell us more about this EV with Warp11HV and warp-core controller...
> 
> specifically about the battery amps at higher rpms/speeds.
> 
> Thanks


I took a short ride in the El Camino, Wayne drove, I tried to watch the display. The cars speedo was broken and there was not a Tachometer. The highest Amp draw I saw come from the batteries was around 800A in third gear. Not sure on the rpm but he was not pushing it so I would guess the rpm never went above 4,000 but I can't say for sure.

He said when he first got it going he had the local police shutdown a section of road and clock him with their radar, he was clocked at 120mph. I am not sure on the 0-60 time but he assured me that it is faster than the stock Chevy 350 he removed.

The display had two amp readings one was the draw from batteries the other was the amps the motor is receiving. I am still kind of new to EV's so this confused me at first but I guess because the motor rpm is controlled by voltage at lower rpm your motor will get more amps than you draw from your high voltage pack. The display had many other readouts but I did not have time to get familiar with it.

The car had 288 nominal volts of AGM lead batteries around 120AH I believe. So the car had to weigh at least 3,000lbs. I still accelerated very smooth and there was no whine from the motor or controller. I was impressed by the set up.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

I thought I would add that the 9,000 rpm that some websites post for the Warp 11 HV is not entirely true. 9,000 rpm is the physical limit of the motor before it flies apart. Netgain recommends 5,000 rpm as the max cont. and anything over that for limited time only. I would start your redline at 5,000 and peak and 7,000 rpm to be safe.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thank you for the write up.

I am particulalry interested in the amps (torque) being drawn at higher rpms...

e.g. if he was pulling 800A @ 4000rpm and if 800A = 250ftlbs, then thats 190hp @ 4000rpm


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thank you for the write up.
> 
> I am particulalry interested in the amps (torque) being drawn at higher rpms...
> 
> e.g. if he was pulling 800A @ 4000rpm and if 800A = 250ftlbs, then thats 190hp @ 4000rpm


I will be taking another trip to see him next month when he has his speedometer fixed and I will try to figure out how to pull up the motor tach and amps on the same page of the display so I can watch them at the same time. Then I will post the results.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Kelmark said:


> I will be taking another trip to see him next month when he has his speedometer fixed and I will try to figure out how to pull up the motor tach and amps on the same page of the display so I can watch them at the same time. Then I will post the results.


That would be great, thanks!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Kelmark said:


> I will be taking another trip to see him next month when he has his speedometer fixed and I will try to figure out how to pull up the motor tach and amps on the same page of the display so I can watch them at the same time. Then I will post the results.


We actually want three numbers... Motor Volts, Amps and RPM.
Gerhard


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

this is my first post but i have been watching this bmw and cant wait to see this thing on the quarter mile. i want to do a conversion myself with a 2004 celica. ive seen people use the warp 9" alot but no real high performance except for white zombie and maniac mazda. what hp do expect from two high voltage warp 11"'s? because i will biuld mine the same way. cant wait to see it. thanks!!!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Two 11" motors should be good for over 1000 hp but that means over 1500 hp battery power since the motors are not very efficient at that kind of currents

You have to have very good batteries and very good controllers to take advantage of two 11" HV motors. That means lots of $$$

Such a "conversion" can easily break trough the $100k mark


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Two 11" motors should be good for over 1000 hp but that means over 1500 hp battery power since the motors are not very efficient at that kind of currents
> 
> You have to have very good batteries and very good controllers to take advantage of two 11" HV motors. That means lots of $$$
> 
> Such a "conversion" can easily break trough the $100k mark


speaking of expensive setups...can you release anything on the types of batteries you'll be using on your builds?

Will you be using those thundersky cells for your siamese 11" E30? What about the BMW project? A123's?


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

damn, 1000hp would be too much, just a reliable 300hp. really just want to be in the low 11 sec to high 10 sec quarter mile and also use for a daily drive. would two 9" netgain motor do 300hp? apprciate it


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> damn, 1000hp would be too much, just a reliable 300hp. really just want to be in the low 11 sec to high 10 sec quarter mile and also use for a daily drive. would two 9" netgain motor do 300hp? apprciate it


One 11" will do the job



Bowser330 said:


> speaking of expensive setups...can you release anything on the types of batteries you'll be using on your builds?
> 
> Will you be using those thundersky cells for your siamese 11" E30? What about the BMW project? A123's?


Hi Bowser.

The BMW E30 is in the paint shop now and waiting for 900 Headway "P" cells

The other project will get 64 kWh of A123 cells.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> One 11" will do the job
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey man, wait a minute...A123 cells are ~10$ (Bulk) for each 3.3V 2.3AH (7.6Wh) cell....

64,000Wh / 7.6Wh = 8421 cells needed....

8421 * 10$ = $84,210...

...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Hey man, wait a minute...A123 cells are ~10$ (Bulk) for each 3.3V 2.3AH (7.6Wh) cell....
> 
> 64,000Wh / 7.6Wh = 8421 cells needed....
> 
> ...


Some people spend 10X this money on a fancy Ferrari Enzo or something like this. I'm building the fastest EV. Guess what's more fun


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Some people spend 10X this money on a fancy Ferrari Enzo or something like this. I'm building the fastest EV. Guess what's more fun


Very true my friend. 

Amazing...so when can I move to Zagreb to work for you...


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Very true my friend.
> 
> Amazing...so when can I move to Zagreb to work for you...


When I start making money with this... (could take a while)


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> When I start making money with this... (could take a while)


Oh no, I think you are underestimating yourself...You know as well as I do (or more than I do) that most of the manufacturers (from exotic to cheapy) are spending on R&D related too electric motor technology...with that R&D comes funding/grants/partnerships/outsroucing, etc with smaller companies (CroDriver Inc.)

I look forward to more developments you can share with us!


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

thats seen like a high price or im just looking at the wrong batteries...
also, you said one 11 will do it but i want the complexity if two motor. series to parallel and motor for each tire in the rear. i think i can get away without a diff.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> thats seen like a high price or im just looking at the wrong batteries...
> also, you said one 11 will do it but i want the complexity if two motor. series to parallel and motor for each tire in the rear. i think i can get away without a diff.


You can't connect the motor directly to the wheels. You need a reduction gear between them.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

That's also in the plan. I need the tireS to turn at about 2500 rpm max when the motor is at it's 5000 rpm. I'll find some 2:1 gear box to throw in between each motor and tire. You also said that I need 1500hp supporting batteries for a 1000hp to the ground so will I need 450hp supporting batteries for my 300hp goal? And if so, how many a123 batteries is that? I haven't really found a good calculator on how many batteries needed for 300hp and a 50 mile range. Really do appriciate your responses.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

looked at those a123 batteries and for the true a123 batties they are expensive as hell! are they that much better? are they better then thundersky batteries? wanting a 10kw battery pack but dont want to pay out the ass!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Performance costs money, no matter what the technology is. Yes A123 are better, and cost a lot more. Most of us use TS and SE for that reason, they are good enough and you can actually afford them.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> looked at those a123 batteries and for the true a123 batties they are expensive as hell! are they that much better? are they better then thundersky batteries? wanting a 10kw battery pack but dont want to pay out the ass!


Where were did you get your pricing from? Are you talking about their 10ah and 20ah pouch cells? Last time I checked the only way you could buy those is through some back door channels and the price ways reasonable for the performance and weight compared to SE and TS. The difficulty has been getting them through a source that will honor warranties.

Sorry, I read back through the thread and found what you were talking about. Yea those are expensive and there would be lots of connections that could go bad. I personally wouldn't go that route, but it is not even an option for my budget.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

how many thundersky batteries do you think i need for 40 miles and support upto 450hp? and what type of thundersky battery?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can't do 450 hp with TS, or SE. That's 335 KW, if you could do 1000 amps that would be 335 volts, a bit more with voltage sag and efficiency losses. A 200ah TS could only do about 3C, 600 amps, SE might get 4C, 800 amps. You'd need at least 105 of them, about 1365lbs, but you'd have a crapload of range. If you really want to get near that kind of hp you probably need A123, lots of them.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

A good lead acid battery has more power per kg than TS! TS has alot more energy (range), though.


JRP3 said:


> You can't do 450 hp with TS, or SE. That's 335 KW, if you could do 1000 amps that would be 335 volts, a bit more with voltage sag and efficiency losses. A 200ah TS could only do about 3C, 600 amps, SE might get 4C, 800 amps. You'd need at least 105 of them, about 1365lbs, but you'd have a crapload of range. If you really want to get near that kind of hp you probably need A123, lots of them.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> You can't do 450 hp with TS, or SE. That's 335 KW, if you could do 1000 amps that would be 335 volts, a bit more with voltage sag and efficiency losses. A 200ah TS could only do about 3C, 600 amps, SE might get 4C, 800 amps. You'd need at least 105 of them, about 1365lbs, but you'd have a crapload of range. If you really want to get near that kind of hp you probably need A123, lots of them.


damn, damn, damn! is there any other batteries out there? i want to stay under 500lbs. the hp is the main focus, i need 300hp out of 2 warp 9" motors. any other pathway?


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> rsx, there is A LOT to learn from your fellow members...This is what I have learned that may help you with your setup...
> 
> I would follow the leaders, If someone is making a really amazing electric vehicle, I would see what parts they are using..._afterall imitation is the ultimate form of flattery.._
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'm really pretty new to forums and am having a hard time really navigating the site for information like that. I will look into the headway cells, and maybe i will set a lower goal for horse power. I really want to have a fast car but would 300hp be to much? with all the extra torque I mean. i want it to be fast enough to draw the attention of ricers and mustangs. show them something different.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With all the low end torque an electric motor can provide you can get some pretty impressive acceleration with less peak hp than you'd think.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

okay, so i looked at the headway "p" cells. there a really good price for there performance, will these batteries last? 10 years? am i nuts? probably. also, im going with about 300lbs of batteries, i dont need that much. yet, these are just a step below the a123 batteries? you guys are very helpful


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> ....
> Running the Zilla 2K in parallel mode, each motor would get 320V and 800A peak, which would translate to 256kw peak = 343hp (before losses etc)_...._


I love your enthusiasm for excess, Bowser330, I really do, but DC motors are a very mature technology. As a result, there is an extremely tight correlation between weight and power no matter what "tricks" were used in the design. There simply needs to be a certain amount of copper and iron present to deliver a given amount of power.

More specifically, motors in this size range (9" to 11", 100# - 250lb#) will deliver about 1hp PEAK for every pound of motor weight. 

(My definition of peak, btw, is the power that can be sustained without destruction for 10 seconds. Maybe you can push that out to 15 seconds, maybe even 20, but make no mistake, you are rolling the dice the longer (or harder) you punish the motor.)

The S2 (60 min. or continuous) rating will be in the 0.20hp - 0.40hp per lb range. Maybe you can push this a tad higher with forced ventilation of the brush assembly and/or other exotic cooling methods, but not by more than a few percent. 

Commutation failure (zorching) goes up with current/torque, voltage/rpm, brush temperature and the prevalence of brush residue circulating between the brushes. There is no free lunch.

We previously zorched a Kostov 9" motor after 10-15 seconds at 100-120V and ~900A, and we just recently zorched a WarP9 at 180V and 550A.... notice that it took the same amount of power (~100kW) each time and these were two different manufacturers.

So how much peak power will the new WarP11HV deliver? Well, how much does it weigh??? 

It really is as simple as that.

One last thing... How can you have 320V/800A at the motor while pulling 800A from the battery pack without the pack voltage being much much higher than what the controller can withstand when you AREN'T pulling that high of a current? The only way to reduce pack voltage sag, no matter the battery chemistry, is to go with higher C rating batteries! So, you gonna lug around 100 400Ah LFP cells???


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rsx-1mw ride said:


> okay, so i looked at the headway "p" cells. there a really good price for there performance, will these batteries last? 10 years?


 Who knows, they haven't been around long enough to know. The harder you use them the shorter life they'll have, no matter what cells you use.


> am i nuts? probably.


  Yup, but there is nothing wrong with trying to push the envelope as long as you can afford it.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> So how much peak power will the new WarP11HV deliver? Well, how much does it weigh???


Hi Tesseract. 

Your explanation seems very plausible but I still hope that you're not correct


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I love your enthusiasm for excess, Bowser330, I really do, but DC motors are a very mature technology. As a result, there is an extremely tight correlation between weight and power no matter what "tricks" were used in the design. There simply needs to be a certain amount of copper and iron present to deliver a given amount of power.
> 
> More specifically, motors in this size range (9" to 11", 100# - 250lb#) will deliver about 1hp PEAK for every pound of motor weight.
> 
> ...


I agree with the above... There will be voltage sag pretty bad when extracting 20C from the hadways...So RSX i will delete my post and allow more knowledgable people on these forums like Tessaract and others to address your questions...

...I am self admitted enthiusiast of excess, and it can drive me to inaccurate conclusions...


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Tessarect, Major, and all the motor people: How much of a gain over that ~1hp/lb peak can a motor gain with interpoles, better brushes, more favorable segment count, better cooling, etc?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know if this is illegal but here is some DC motor porn :



















Stock vs. new


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

You certainly have my undivided attention. Got a little too much spare time on our hands, do we?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

are those kostov 11s? 3 of them??


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

electromet said:


> You certainly have my undivided attention. Got a little too much spare time on our hands, do we?


Spare time is a thing I certainly don't have



Bowser330 said:


> are those kostov 11s? 3 of them??


Nop. Custom Warp 11" HV


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Tessarect, Major, and all the motor people: How much of a gain over that ~1hp/lb peak can a motor gain with interpoles, better brushes, more favorable segment count, better cooling, etc?


The things you mention probably won't mean much at all. But chrome plating. There's a big boost


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

ooohhh, super sexy! those are what i want, to much money. will they ever biuld a hv warp 9"? how did you get the chrome?


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Batterypoweredtoad*  
_Tessarect, Major, and all the motor people: How much of a gain over that ~1hp/lb peak can a motor gain with interpoles, better brushes, more favorable segment count, better cooling, etc?_



major said:


> The things you mention probably won't mean much at all. But chrome plating. There's a big boost


 
I cannot quite agree.
Peak HP will not change much but interpoles, segment count and so on will shift peak HP from low voltage region (70-100V) to high voltage region (140-200V).

Love the chrome plating too 
Just cannot imagine how it can be saved from scratches in factory conditions. 
Have considered in the past using polished stainless steel but gave it up on scratch concerns.
Major, do you think stainless steel case will change the electric parameters of the motor?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Plamenator said:


> I cannot quite agree.
> Peak HP will not change much but interpoles, segment count and so on will shift peak HP from low voltage region (70-100V) to high voltage region (140-200V).


Would not an increased segment count mean smaller armature conductors and therefore less current rating?



> Major, do you think stainless steel case will change the electric parameters of the motor?


As far as I know, stainless steel sucks magnetically. You could not use it as the yoke, or back iron. Best you could do is to put a stainless can around the yoke.

Regards,

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Plamenator said:


> Love the chrome plating too
> Just cannot imagine how it can be saved from scratches in factory conditions.
> Have considered in the past using polished stainless steel but gave it up on scratch concerns.


I think there are some pretty tough plastic wraps that could be put on during assembly to protect the finish.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> The things you mention probably won't mean much at all. But chrome plating. There's a big boost


Major, you really think that all this modifications won't have an effect? 



Plamenator said:


> Love the chrome plating too
> Just cannot imagine how it can be saved from scratches in factory conditions.
> Have considered in the past using polished stainless steel but gave it up on scratch concerns.


It really looks great. The motors will probably be visible from the interior of the car so I'll take care to prevent scratches.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

In performance ICE applications we always avoided chrome because it was said to retain more heat. Show cars use it, but they're not as concerned with the heat issue. IIRC, I just heard the guy doing my CNC work tell one of his customers no to put chrome on his engine for this reason. He suggested aluminum.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Major, you really think that all this modifications won't have an effect?


Hi Cro,

The question was "How much of a gain over that ~1hp/lb peak can a motor gain with interpoles, better brushes, more favorable segment count, better cooling, etc?" in regards to Tesseract's ball-park rule-of-thumb figure.

Plamenator agrees with me regarding interpoles. They actually consume space inside the motor which could otherwise be used for torque producing components. 

Why do you think different brushes would improve peak power? Maybe they could, if the motor had been designed for long life and had original brushes suited for that. But who do you trust more? The high performance brush salesman or the original motor designer?

I covered the segment count with Plamen.

And lastly, cooling? How much cooling is going to happen at peak power for a few seconds? Now the cooler motor will have a lower resistance and therefore less copper loss. But "peak power" is typically an estimate starting at "room" temperature. So, yeah, cooling is kool. But not relevant to a "peak power" rating.

But a chrome plated frame will make you go much faster 

Regards,

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Major, stop making fun about the chroming. 

My motor will make 800 rotations for the 1/4 mile. I doubt that cooling is a serious issue for that short time (10-12 seconds). We have also added a external fan.

So my plan is to push 1800 Amps and 280-300V trough the motor.


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

major said:


> Would not an increased segment count mean smaller armature conductors and therefore less current rating?
> 
> 
> Less current indeed but at higher voltage so power (and peak power) is conserved.


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## rsx-1mw ride (Mar 16, 2010)

im sorry im never on topic but what is the max discharge from headway p cells. it shows max as 20 c for 3 minutes; what about ten seconds? and what is the max for thunder sky cells? this could make a huge difference. also too add, im getting the 1000amp zilla with the switchable parralel to series thing. with two warp 9" in-line, what should be the voltage input into the zilla? ive done advanced placement physics in highschool but cant remember squat about voltage and amprage input depending on the order setup of the resistors (motors), HELP!!!!!!!


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

The chrome would reflect sunlight which would help keep the motors cooler on a sunny day...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I have purchased 3 WarP 11" HV motors that are in Jim Husted's shop now. I have some the test results from the Net-Gain factory. They tested them at ONLY 72V and maximum 590 Amps.
> 
> I asked them why they don't test them at higher voltages. Here is their answer:
> 
> ...



Hey Cro... just wanted to see if you ever got actual performance data on this motor, either from your testing or Jim Husted? Sort of a thread-bump and reminder


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi Jeffrey.

The volcano eruption a few weeks ago is killing me (planes can't fly trough the smoke). Stuff that should have been here a long time ago is still in the US. I hope to have the motors here in a couple of weeks but it will still take quite a while until the car will be ready for a test drive/dyno.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

elmerfud said:


> This website has data for the Warp 11 motors, but it doesn't coincide with anything that you have in your data unless you data was short term power and the other data is continuous.
> 
> http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
> 
> ...


that's because it is using 72 volts. cro is using much higher voltage.

corbin


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

Looking at options of SEPEX on the HV-11 motor.

Has anyone got voltage measurements of the HV-11 Field and Rotor separately.

Wondering with Series motors whether some of the Bemf is seen in the Field Winding too. Or does the Current through the Field purely depend on the Voltage accross is at any RPM?

If I can put 500A through the FIELD separately then the voltage needed for the rotor will be less. 
So the power into the motor will be in two parts: VI_Field + VI_Rotor.
This will allow the option of reversing the field current to get reverse.
But more importantly regen currents from motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> Looking at options of SEPEX on the HV-11 motor.
> 
> Has anyone got voltage measurements of the HV-11 Field and Rotor separately.


Hi 7,

I doubt it 



> Wondering with Series motors whether some of the Bemf is seen in the Field Winding too.


Nope.



> Or does the Current through the Field purely depend on the Voltage accross is at any RPM?


The field current is the same as the armature current in a series motor and that current is determined by the load, applied voltage and RPM. It is actually vice versa from the way you state it. The voltage drop across the series field is the armature current times the field resistance. Ohm's Law kinda thing 



> If I can put 500A through the FIELD separately then the voltage needed for the rotor will be less.


Yeah, by maybe 2 or 3 volts. 



> So the power into the motor will be in two parts: VI_Field + VI_Rotor.


That would only be part of the loss power. None of the power actually converted to mechanical power and delivered to the load. Which is usually defined as Pem = Ia * Eg.



> This will allow the option of reversing the field current to get reverse. But more importantly regen currents from motor.


Yes, but you need a full bridge (H Bridge) for the field and a half bridge for the armature. So this is the same size as the inverters you were blowing up last week. I have seen where this has been done, that is to separately excite series wound motors. It is not a pretty sight, but one guy said he got it to work, on low voltage fork trucks. It would much easier, from a control standpoint and cost wise, to have the motor rewound to a SepEx field. That brings the field voltage up from 2 or 3 volts to 40 or 60V and the field currents down from 500A to 50A. And much nicer task for your H bridge field controller 

Regards,

major


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

[ Edit: oops, I didn't notice the other 8 pages of comments; this has already been addressed. ]



elmerfud said:


> Their Warp 11 HV grap shows a maximum of 35 HP.
> 
> http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_20_WarP_11_Graph.jpg


I believe that's for the Warp 11, not the 11HV (not that it likely makes a whole lot of difference), and at 72 V up to only 460 A.

I note that the 180 kW on the graph is presumably electrical (302 V * 597.3 A); the 123 kW is presumably mechanical power output from the motor (indicating an efficiency at 600 A of about 68%).

The excuse of the 72 V dynamometer seems very weak to me. They are selling a high voltage motor; surely they have to test it (at least internally) at high voltage  It's like selling a sports car advertised as capable of 300 km/hr, and giving the power output at 72 km/h.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

major said:


> Yes, but you need a full bridge (H Bridge) for the field


Or an ordinary controller (1 switch + diode) and a medium-sized reversing contactor. Or just skip the reversing contactor, and use mechanical reverse.



> and a half bridge for the armature.


Yes, though some controllers (Zilla?) use a half-bridge already. But they would possibly need some special software to handle regen; I would not know.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

This is different system to the TIM600. But it does use 6xFull Bridge.

And as they already have a Warp HV11 then wondering what can be done to extract more out of it with a 300Vdc Bus. 

I have seen the flat fat copper windings used for the Field. I can imagine the DC voltage drop at 600A would be may be 20V.

So if the cost of IGBT's and drivers aren't the problem, what would be the ideal motor controller.

I'm thinking that to allow for dynamic braking, varying the field current is needed.
So if the field (poles) are already in series for the HV11, then no rewire like in Kostov's can be done to the field.

If the connection between the Rotor and the Field can be shorted with PWM to BUS neg then the Field current can be increased.

The motor may be changed later, but if we can try and get the max performance out of it now that would be great.

The main thing is to get the parameters of the motor WarpHV11. I guess we will need to test it ourselves.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

The 3 legs could just be paralleled as reverse is not needed.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> The 3 legs could just be paralleled as reverse is not needed.


O.K. Good for you. Figured out it out. Draw some circuit diagrams and post them up here. Sorry, I don't see it.

Good luck with your project, no kidding. I hope you get it running, AC, DC or somewhere in between.

major


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

major said:


> O.K. Good for you. Figured out it out. Draw some circuit diagrams and post them up here. Sorry, I don't see it.
> 
> Good luck with your project, no kidding. I hope you get it running, AC, DC or somewhere in between.
> 
> major


Hey calm down, I'm having trouble posting.

My post didn't show up.

So with a gearbox setup and using reverse, the field weakening is what is needed. As has been mentioned.

I think I need to check out the controller capability for mulitple PWM before wondering about the mulitple Power Switches.
It may only be capable of three phase control no separate field excitation of DC. 

It would be nice to know how field weakening effects the Warp HV 11.

Thanks for your comments.

The system was running with the three phase terminals driving the motor as a series Field+Rotor connection.

Might continue this on AEVA as posting times out, and gets annoying.

ken 7c


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> Hey calm down, I'm having trouble posting.
> 
> My post didn't show up.


Seems like I post and you disregard it. You just proceed and post up scattered thoughts without defining what it really is you're doing. I tried to help. Have you searched this board for info on that motor?










With this demonstrated output, why do you think you would need field weakening?

Regards,

major


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Because he doesn't have 450,000 volts available?  I didn't know any 450kV testing had been done!


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Because he doesn't have 450,000 volts available?  I didn't know any 450kV testing had been done!


Serious typo make that kW.
Gerhard


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ah shoot. I was all set to ask how you kept the commutator from flashing over.  That's O.K., Otmar said he didn't have any Z2k-OMGhv controllers available anyway.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

7 Circle I have a sepex motor, but I'm in the stone age just switching Voltage across the paralled field and armature. It is great fun to do it so simply and inexpensively and get regen.

It sounds like you are starting with a 3 phase controller, and using one phase for the armature, and one or two phases for the field. Just curious your goals. Is this a science project with a cheap inverter to see if it can be done? Are you hoping to produce a product in time?

It would be great to have a high power sepex controller, like major says between DC and AC in performance.

If some field weakening would fatten the torque curve, I'd say that's awesome. For racing, 500 hp is powerful enough for autocross, but you can use more power on the big track or land speed. Anyway, does your motor have interpoles? Watch out for arcs and sparks!


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

RE Earlier post

>>>>


major said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *7circle*
> _Looking at options of SEPEX on the HV-11 motor.
> 
> ...


*7C: I think we agree on most of the theory.

Its understanding the WarpHV11 thats the issue.

I saw you post with the 450kW peak power curve.

I did search the forum for Warp HV 11 and didn't find that curve.
And as you earlier mentioned with "Nope" no one has posted data on real measurements of the Field and Rotor terminals during motor operation.

Fitting some leads to two DMMs and doing a run with a real car isn't that hard. Maybe using a two channel DSO or Data logger would be even better with RPM.

Its exciting that this project is heading into new terriotory.

The battery pack will be the real challenge.

Defining the max power we can get with the lowest battery voltage will help us get the best performance.

Keeping the Ea as close to the battery back voltage via the power semiconductors will help get huge regen currents.

I appreciate your feedback and ideas. 

I'm visiting my sister and using her laptop so thinkgs can get a bit difficult to gather drawing and make sketches to share.

Thanks for your patience. Caps at start weren't me yelling either.

7C Ken

The above looked different in the Preview. The nested quotes have dissapeared.

*


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> 7 Circle I have a sepex motor, but I'm in the stone age just switching Voltage across the paralled field and armature. It is great fun to do it so simply and inexpensively and get regen.
> 
> It sounds like you are starting with a 3 phase controller, and using one phase for the armature, and one or two phases for the field. Just curious your goals. Is this a science project with a cheap inverter to see if it can be done? Are you hoping to produce a product in time?
> 
> ...



If we can get a good throttle pedel response and crazy performance then a race based controller may be born from this.

Yes the Warp HV 11" has commutation winding or also known as interpoles. I'm using commutation as R_c and I_c is easier to identify the loss than I_i or R_i. 

It'll be a bit more than a science project.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

major said:


> Seems like I post and you disregard it. You just proceed and post up scattered thoughts without defining what it really is you're doing. I tried to help. Have you searched this board for info on that motor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats fine for acceleration or dragstrip.

If your needing decel into hair pin turns and slow down from high speed to 90deg bends why not use low throttle to define regen.

So if you have huge field currents at low RPM you get larger Bemf. 

The field weakening is really opposite to whats needed.

Perhaps I should say Field Strengthening.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> Thats fine for acceleration or dragstrip.
> 
> If your needing decel into hair pin turns and slow down from high speed to 90deg bends why not use low throttle to define regen.
> 
> ...


You completely lost me. Doesn't your car have brakes?

And "Field Strengthening" ??? O.K. What is it I don't understand about a separately excited system? If that is what you want for your application, do it. Great! All I am saying is that it is better to do a SepEx system with a motor designed for it rather than trying to use a motor with a 5 milliohm field 

major


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

7circle: Glad to hear you want to make a serious racing controller. Heavy regen sounds good to me!

Why not rewind for a compound motor? You can then be mostly series, but crank up on the field strength via the 2nd set of windings. These windings can be much finer and take just 10's of amps to excite instead of 1000's. Of course, a full sepex motor does this well, too.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

There are many options. 

The battery back could be 150V and the Rotor could operate of a larger Rail up to 400Vdc.

The Field winding inductance can be used to generate this.

There's many choices. Cost modelling needs to be considered to.
Rewiring is more expensive than an IGBT that can do 600A at 600V in one off race setups.

The main issue for me at the moment is to understand the Warp 11" HV.

The torque and Bemf as functions of currents and RPM.

The field can be rewound but it doesn't have to be.

If the Warp HV11" is just a Warp 11 with a cramped up field winding to fit in the commutation interpole windings then that doesn't explain the nominal RPM not changing for a different Nominal Voltage.

Major, what topic did the 250kV (???kW) graph come from. I cant find it.

Thanks again for putting up with my rambling.

Ken 7C


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> The battery back could be 150V and the Rotor could operate of a larger Rail up to 400Vdc.
> 
> The Field winding inductance can be used to generate this.


This might sound good in theory but try to implement it 



> that doesn't explain the nominal RPM not changing for a different Nominal Voltage.


This makes no sense.



> Major, what topic did the 250kV (???kW) graph come from. I cant find it.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bmw-bi-moto-ev-project-28287.html



> Thanks again for putting up with my rambling.


Yep, you're all over the place.  It appears to me that you have some misunderstandings of basics of electric machinery and converters yet attempt to reinvent the wheel. 



7circle said:


> I'm not convinced that the diodes are the only path without the Caps.


Tesseract and I are trying to point out some areas needing improvement. I have nothing against blowing up some modules learning what not to do. I have blown up my share, and I suspect Tesser has blown up his allotment and then some 

Cheers,

major


----------



## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

DavidDymaxion said:


> 7 Circle I have a sepex motor, but I'm in the stone age just switching Voltage across the paralled field and armature. It is great fun to do it so simply and inexpensively and get regen.
> 
> It sounds like you are starting with a 3 phase controller, and using one phase for the armature, and one or two phases for the field. Just curious your goals. Is this a science project with a cheap inverter to see if it can be done? Are you hoping to produce a product in time?
> 
> ...


The project is already running with a linked 3phase type bridge capable of over 1200A. I'm just considering new options with this setup before they decide to try a new Motor Setup maybe PMAC.

Case Cooling and rewinding the motor are options or having a second motor that can be swapped over is an option.


----------



## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

major said:


> Seems like I post and you disregard it. You just proceed and post up scattered thoughts without defining what it really is you're doing. I tried to help. Have you searched this board for info on that motor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Setting up a system with regen and using the DC motor as braking load like ICE braking at high revs.

If the motor can do high torque braking at low revs why not do it.

The car setup is amazing so taking it further by getting more from the batteries during the race will be terrific. 

The Losses in the system during regen will be high, but keeping extra surface charge in the cells is easier to pull out again then dragging out deeper Li+ ions.

There is so much chatter on the big DC motors its amazing.

Getting some real dyno curves with voltages and current will help alot of people understand the DC motor.

I hate reinventing the wheel. But if no one is sharing the design how can we


> > that doesn't explain the nominal RPM not changing for a different Nominal Voltage.
> 
> 
> This makes no sense.


What is the physical change to the Warp11 that makes it a WarpHV11?

Have they changed the field winding number of turns?

Is it internally connected with series fields not parallel fields?

The motor ratings are for sseries connection so I realise that the RPM is not limited by the terminal voltage. It will keep reving out under no load conditions.

But as the http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#WarP_11HV
still has no "(Sales Sheet not yet available)" listed its a bit hard to compare.

I just want to know the characteristics of the motor.
If the data can be extrapolated from the Warp11 thats good.
Knowing the differences of copper size and turns of the 4 pole field windings would be a start.

I cant dismantle the motor on this rig and I would need a Warp11 to compare to.

Photos and real data would be very very nice.

I've spent ages searching, many of the threads are huge now and hard t find data. This thread "WarP 11" HV performance graph" would be the perfect spot to post the information. Deep in other project blogs is very hard to find.

I don't want to get bogged down on circuit concepts at the moment. Just collecting useful data.

Careful on the EM, the media isgoing to go sick on Prius EMI compliance and cancer.

Cheers Ken 7C

edit: http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp11.php for comparison.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

7circle said:


> *Looking at the earlier data that CRO-Driver posted with his extrapolation of the WARP11HV motor at 128KW Mechanical Output and the 180kW Electrical input ther leaves 52kW of heat being produced. This works out to 0.16Ohms at 597A. This is also V=1R =96V drop.*


Um. Oh my. Where to begin...

A motor isn't a resistor so you can't apply Ohms law on it just like that. A motor that's by some reason unable to rotate will have a very low voltage drop while a motor that's spinning a few thousands RPM will have a pretty high voltage drop, mainly because of back-EMF. That's why you lose power when the RPM causes a back-EMF that gets close to pack voltage. If you had a perfect motor without losses your motor Voltage would be 0 Volt when the motor was stopped (no matter the current) but you would still have an increasing voltage drop when RPM goes up since the voltage drop is required to produce mechanical power from the motor! If you didn't have back-EMF from a rotating motor you'd have a perpeetum mobile that created energy out of nothing and since a contraption like that would cause the universe to explode that isn't very likely to happen.

Now, no motor is of course entirely without losses, so you still get a voltage drop even at 0 RPM. However, the drop looks something like this:

U = I * Ri + backEMF

Ri is somewhere around 20 mOhm for a WarP 9" so at for example 1000 Amps the voltage drop because of Ohms law (I * Ri) equals 20 Volt. Motor voltage at 2000 RPM is approximately 100 Volt so 80 Volt "disappears" elsewhere without passing Ohms law and that's your back-EMF. Now, if you stop that motor the backEMF suddenly drop to 0 Volt while the drop over Ri stays, so the same current, 1000 Amps, now result in only 20 Volt drop because when RPM is zero back-EMF is too.

A motor with an internal resistance of 0.16 Ohm in an EV would be so inefficient that it'd melt, because that's what Ri is; inefficiency. It's the part of a motor that works like radiator rather than a "rotatiator". 

That's also why you won't gain much from splitting the field and armature because as major has already told you the field doesn't have a back-EMF (if he says so I believe him, and so should you). That means that the formula above can be split into two parts:

Ufield = I * Rfield

Uarmature = I * Rarmature + backEMF

And since backEMF is the big voltage drop Uarmature will be very close to the U in the first formula and Ufield will be pretty much zero.


----------



## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

Qer said:


> ....
> A motor with an internal resistance of 0.16 Ohm in an EV would be so inefficient that it'd melt, because that's what Ri is; inefficiency. It's the part of a motor that works like radiator rather than a "rotatiator".
> 
> That's also why you won't gain much from splitting the field and armature because as major has already told you the field doesn't have a back-EMF (if he says so I believe him, and so should you). That means that the formula above can be split into two parts:
> ...


Can you explain the difference between the estimated 180kW and theh 122kW shown on the curve?









Edit: The Image above is From Cro Drivers photobucket site. From what I can tell its an Extimate, not real data.

But if there is 180-123kW = 57kW of losses the the combined losses of field+interpole+brush + rotor + eddy(commutation ripple) can be shown as a resistive loss extimation.

So 57kW is estimated to be the I^2.R loss. So R=57k/(600x600) = 0.16 ohm 
This is not the field resistance. its an estimation of the total loss.

There is an associated Voltage potential that obeys ohms law: V=IR so 600A x 0.16ohm = 96V.

The 96V is real and is the sum of the poteial drops other than Ea (Bemf).

Are we on the same metaphorical page yet.

[:~[)

edit: science is not about belief its about tested theory. I can't belive you said 
*"(if he says so I believe him, and so should you)"
{Edit: But you typed it in and I quoted you ... sorry to harp on it but I hope you get the point it's not the school yard and your buddies get to gether and start bullying.... read my posts again and don't miss quote me}

*That's so stupid and Major should set you straight, its not gospel, its science.

And two coils sharing flux linkages do interact.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

7circle said:


> But if there is 180-123kW = 57kW of losses the the combined losses of field+interpole+brush + rotor + eddy(commutation ripple) can be shown as a resistive loss extimation.


So what you are saying is that the total loss of the motor is the same as the loss that would be experienced by an 0.16 R resistor carrying 600 A. I don't think it makes sense to represent some losses (e.g. eddy currents, friction, windage) as an equivalent resistance. Certainly, considering the voltage drop due to friction makes no sense to me.

All we can say from the above is that the sum of the brush, field, and rotor resistances is something less than 0.16 ohms.

[ Edit: however, friction and windage are generally considered to be negligible, especially at high loads like 600 A. I don't have a feel for how high eddy current losses are, or if there are other iron losses in a DC motor, but I'd guess they would be small compared to the I^2.R losses of the rotor, field, and brushes. ]


----------



## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

Back to the issue

Has anyone seen scope measurements on any DC series brushed motor.

eg:
Channel 1: RPM
Channel 2: Current
Channel 3: Rotor Terminals
Channel 4: Field Terminals

This would explain a lot.

DMM's even with true RMS don't show ripple effectively, to understand whats happening.

There are plenty of people that would appreciate such data.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

Coulomb said:


> So what you are saying is that the total loss of the motor is the same as the loss that would be experienced by an 0.16 R resistor carrying 600 A. I don't think it makes sense to represent some losses (e.g. eddy currents, friction, windage) as an equivalent resistance. Certainly, considering the voltage drop due to friction makes no sense to me.
> 
> All we can say from the above is that the sum of the brush, field, and rotor resistances is something less than 0.16 ohms.
> 
> [ Edit: however, friction and windage are generally considered to be negligible, especially at high loads like 600 A. I don't have a feel for how high eddy current losses are, or if there are other iron losses in a DC motor, but I'd guess they would be small compared to the I^2.R losses of the rotor, field, and brushes. ]


Yeah Friction is a bit strange to be associtated with a voltage drop. 
I hadn't mentioned it in my list, as it is a mechanical loss that's part of the Ea.Ia power.

Iron core loss is the issue of hysterisis when current goes positive and negative. My understanding of this term is not that clear.
Eddy current loss is due to ripple causing circulating currentts in the iron and is reduced by using laminated core, the thinner the better, or a compressed mix into epoxy like toroidal cores.

Would you agree that there is near 100V drop at 600A and this needs to be shared out over the elements of the circuit. 

The field winding may contribute a small percent to this. That is what I want to confirm.

A stall test will not have commutation ripple as there is no changes in the rotor circuits.

The other issue is coupling of the field and rotor magnetic circuits.
Any changes in flux due to the rotor will cause an effect on the induced current in the Field.

Also the Controller PWM will cause some ripply to using 300V instead of 100V will at the same frequency will have a much different rippple profile even though they both are supplying and RMS of say 1000A.

This ripple will cause eddy current losses in the core lamination.

I don't want to get caught into all this stuff. I just wanted to know real data. 

Sorry to be a bit of a Wombat. They are known for their life style:
They Eat Roots and Leaves.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

7circle said:


> Can you explain the difference between the estimated 180kW and theh 122kW shown on the curve?


No, and since I don't know what that graph is supposed to show or what's the 122kW is about it's impossible to do adequate speculations. Especially since you even edit with a comment that it's not even real data...



7circle said:


> So 57kW is estimated to be the I^2.R loss. So R=57k/(600x600) = 0.16 ohm
> This is not the field resistance. its an estimation of the total loss.
> 
> There is an associated Voltage potential that obeys ohms law: V=IR so 600A x 0.16ohm = 96V.
> ...


No. Those are just guesstimations. Let me show you some hard core data from the Soliton instead.










These are plots of motor voltage at certain speeds and at different currents. As you can see the RPM, and thus the back-EMF, affects the motor voltage the most and Ri*I has a comparatively small impact. Here's a closeup.









So roughly 10 Volt per 100 Ampere which gives about 0.1 Ohm. However, this is total system loss so it includes not only all components in the motor, it also include motor wires and losses in the controller (but not, for example, pack voltage drop). To determine the resistance more closely we need a plot at a certain RPM, like this.










And zoomed in on the linear part it looks like this.










A delta voltage of approximately 25 Volt over 250 Ampere gives 0.1 Ohm, but again, this is Ri not for the motor but the whole power section so for example the wires and the silicon will contribute to the total resistance. The motor resistance will be some tens of mOhm of the total.



7circle said:


> edit: science is not about belief its about tested theory. I can't belive you said
> *"(if he says so I believe him, and so should you)"
> {Edit: But you typed it in and I quoted you ... sorry to harp on it but I hope you get the point it's not the school yard and your buddies get to gether and start bullying.... read my posts again and don't miss quote me}*


Well, if you want to find things out the hard way, be my guest. Personally I prefer to not do all the mistakes myself and when it comes to motors it's simply easier to ask Major. You can harp as much as you like, but if you won't listen to those that holds the knowledge you seek it's your loss. But as I said, if you want to find things out the hard, and expensive, way I won't stop you. Eventually you'll probably just find out that it'd be easier to listen to the advices. 



7circle said:


> I don't want to get caught into all this stuff. I just wanted to know real data.


Then perhaps you should listen to those that have it...?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> I just wanted to know real data.


Then measure it for yourself 

You come over to this board and ask advice. Tesseract and I, and Qer, take time and answer your questions. You don't believe us. Fine. Go find out for yourself.

Fact is that nobody of which I am aware has more data on the 11HV than what you've seen here. You have one? Test it and post it here to add to the data base. We would welcome that.

Cheers,

major


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

7circle said:


> Looking at options of SEPEX on the HV-11 motor.
> 
> Has anyone got voltage measurements of the HV-11 Field and Rotor separately.
> 
> ...



This was my original post on the topic.

What's wrong with it?

I know the Field has a very low impeadance. But I think my question about enduced ripple onto the field from the rotor is a fair question it may be millivolts or it may be 30 Volts. Its worth asking about.

The coupling of the commuting field (interpoles) may also be effecting the field voltage.

Thankyou Qer for posting up the data from the Soliton.

That does really help understand the non-linearities.

It would be helpful to know if thats from a Warp HV 11 or some other motor. Especially if the motor under test has interpoles.

I take it from your explaination that the measurements are made at the controller end and perhaps they are from the Soliton itself.

Trying to see if this show the saturation effects of the higher currents.

Thanks for making the effort. 
I hope I will get some good data from the local project that I can share here.

Thanks 

Ken 7C


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

7circle said:


> This was my original post on the topic.
> 
> What's wrong with it?


Besides that it's daft? Why turn a perfectly good series motor into a sepex motor, especially one that is as expensive as a WarP11HV?

If you want a proper sepex motor buy a used GE or a new Kostov. 

Anticipating your question, here... Trying to drive the field of a series motor independently to make it a sepex is just... well, it's dumb. Who wants to have to build a 10V/2000A full bridge converter stage for the field to go along with a 300V/1000A half-bridge stage for the armature (you will need to be able to overexcite the field relative to the armature to get good regen at low speeds and/or with a high battery pack voltage)???



7circle said:


> I know the Field has a very low impeadance. But I think my question about enduced ripple onto the field from the rotor is a fair question it may be millivolts or it may be 30 Volts. Its worth asking about.


Actually, it seems that you _don't know_ that the field has a low impedance. You also don't seem to realize that the voltage across both the field and rotor when supplied by a PWM converter is going to be a square wave (except at 100% duty cycle) so there is no ripple, per se, to look at (it is the _current_ that is integrated by the motor into triangular ripple). You can't take independent ripple measurements of the rotor and stator (er.. armature and field) without using separate power sources for each, one of which must be pure DC (ie - you want to see induced AC ripple in the rotor then you must feed the rotor with a battery while applying PWM'ed dc to the field). 

The only reason for doing this sort of test would be to apportion the AC losses (eddy/proximity/hysteresis) between the rotor and stator. A rather academic pursuit, IMO, but I'll cheer you on if you want to conduct these tests yourself.

Oh - and the total inductance of the WarP9 motor (one of the two on our dyno) is ~100uH at currents below ~500A, at which point saturation becomes more noticeable. I don't have good data deep into saturation because of the finite amount of time the motor can take that level of abuse before something melts. As I've said in the past - if someone is willing to underwrite the replacement of our dyno we'll do all the destructive tests they want.



7circle said:


> It would be helpful to know if thats from a Warp HV 11 or some other motor. Especially if the motor under test has interpoles.


All data plots like this from Evnetics are derived from our twin WarP9 dyno in which the motors can be run independently, in series or in parallel.

I agree that it would have been helpful if Qer had pointed that out in the above post, but it would also be helpful if you did the following:

1. Search more diligently before asking questions, especially if they are for purely academic pursuits like converting a WarP11HV to sepex or what the ratio of AC losses is in field and armature.

2. Figure out which forum members really know their shit before arguing with anyone. When it comes to motors, major is without a doubt one of the best goldmines of motor information I've ever met, both theoretically and practically speaking. He's a bit crusty, though, especially when having to answer the same question for the 10th time this month.

3. Learn some basic forum etiquette. Like it or not, as the FNG here you have to show a little deference to those people who have been here for years. It doesn't mean you can't argue with them, or that they are always right, etc., it just means you need to be a little more respectful. This -



7circle said:


> edit: science is not about belief its about tested theory. I can't belive you said
> *"(if he says so I believe him, and so should you)"
> {Edit: But you typed it in and I quoted you ... sorry to harp on it but I hope you get the point it's not the school yard and your buddies get to gether and start bullying.... read my posts again and don't miss quote me}*


- is not respectful. Qer was simply letting you know that major knows his shit (see #2 above) when it comes to motors and that you ought to really reconsider your position before arguing with him. I do the same thing. It's not about being part of some club or playground gang, it's about not wasting your time arguing when you have a 99% chance of being wrong. I've specialized in power conversion engineering for much of my career and *I* don't argue with major about motors!

Just my 2c, 7c.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Qer said:


> . Let me show you some hard core data from the Soliton instead.


Hi Qer,
Could you email the data file for those graphs so I can check it against my model? [PM'ing address.]
Gerhard


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

7circle said:


> This was my original post on the topic.
> 
> What's wrong with it?
> 
> ...





Tesseract said:


> Besides that it's daft? Why turn a perfectly good series motor into a sepex motor, especially one that is as expensive as a WarP11HV?
> 
> If you want a proper sepex motor buy a used GE or a new Kostov.
> 
> ...


I have commented a few times now that I'm not wanting to get bogged down in the circuit. 

I know wha PWM is. I know that the Field has a milliohms worth of copper that needs an ohms law worth of potential to get current through it in the DC world.

I know that PWM is square wave voltage.

An I know that the current is a triangular shape as is ramps up and down due to the voltage accros it.

All I'm trying to do is understand the WarpHV11 and how the field winding can be characterised in a motor with interpoles.

I know the straight through series connection of SEPEX DC motors is a great way to get power through it.

I'm not trying to waste all your time. 

Sorry got to go. I'll post some more info later.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

7circle said:


> I have commented a few times now that I'm not wanting to get bogged down in the circuit.


What circuit?



> I know wha PWM is.


That's good.



> I know that the Field has a milliohms worth of copper that needs an ohms law worth of potential to get current through it in the DC world.


Why did you ask? 


7circle said:


> Wondering with Series motors whether some of the Bemf is seen in the Field Winding too.





> I know that PWM is square wave voltage.


That's good to know.



> An I know that the current is a triangular shape as is ramps up and down due to the voltage accros it.


Good.



> All I'm trying to do is understand the WarpHV11 and how the field winding can be characterised in a motor with interpoles.


And this is the easy one. Think about it. 



> I know the straight through series connection of SEPEX DC motors is a great way to get power through it.


This makes no sense, but you know it.



> I'm not trying to waste all your time.


Then you might try taking some advice. But you knew that, right?

Regards,

major


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

What I would like some advice about.... (thanks for your patience)

Can you explain or link to photos of the connections of the four field windings in both the Warp11 and the WarpHV11 that also has interpole windings, . 

with regards 

Ken 7c


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

7circle said:


> What I would like some advice about.... (thanks for your patience)
> 
> Can you explain or link to photos of the connections of the four field windings in both the Warp11 and the WarpHV11 that also has interpole windings, .
> 
> ...


You know, I googled it...

http://www.google.com/search?q=series+wound+motor+interpoles

First hit was this which definitely seems worth a read.

http://www.reliance.com/mtr/mtrthrmn.htm

You can skip the basic stuff in the beginning, but there's lots of small trivias about how a motor work in that text, including a brief explanation about interpoles.


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## 7circle (May 29, 2010)

My approach probably is consider more on the academic side, not that I'm academic.

Thanks Teseract for covering the issues that will help keep things on a less tense level.

After considering the issues of paralleling the field coils , as can be done with the Kostov 11", and heat causing variation of resistances that can cause uneven load sharing, is it fair to assume that the four field coils are in series and the interpole and brush circuits are also in series?

Are the interpoles and fields windings the same number of turns and copper ribbon size?

And has anyone seen the ripple current on a scope?

As to why not use a high turn count field winding, the WarpHV11 is used by lots of people. If the motor was modified or changed to a GE or other type then it would be very hard to compare it.

As to whether it is affordable to add an extra 600V 1800A Half bridge they can be picked up for under $400. If they are not damaged they can be resused in another project. The driver circuit is also tough and reusable.

It might be daft to spend time, effort and $$$ on integrating it into a standard product. But people spend heaps on other performance issues to get race cars more competitive.

To get it to work may need and external inductor to allow easier and slower PWM base frequencies to control and divert/plug the Field current.

The capabilities of new battery technology can allow new ways of handling there power output and input. 

I don't want to be blowing IGBT's or burning out motors. 

So the dyno Warp9's have (seen by the controller)
- about ~100uH of inductance.
- Saturation becomes a problem over 500A
- The data indicate a total resistive load (not including the Ea) from 
0A to 100A of 0.3 ohm
200A to 500A of 0.1 ohm

Has anyone got a static test measurement of the Warp9 field resistance?
Perhaps I can go digging around for Warp9 info. It is likely to be more readily available. 

The Warp9 data is a bit harder to relate to the WarpHV11.

Regarding ripple, "induced ripple" was refering to current ripple. Due to the low impedences the relating voltage ripple is very small, and a scope measuring voltage across the field would have a hard time detecting the ripple resulting in the low pass filtered voltage. I was thinking it could be done, but if the experts don't think its going to show up any results then it not worth trying, I guess. The Controller is usually controlering for torque so it will be trying to keep the current at its setpoint.
So ripple caused by commutation will be removed by the current control of the controller. If its in speed control then the ripple may be more visible.

Faster base PWM rates will reduce the current ripple as well but extra switching heating will result. 

So back to WarpHV11 and Warp11, are there any estimates on the inductance seen by a controller?


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## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Short question:
What does "segment count" mean?
Looked it up in the dictionary but didn't find it.

Thanks


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

marc02228 said:


> What does "segment count" mean?


I imagine it's the number of segments (metal bars) on the commutator. The things that the brushes make contact with.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> In performance ICE applications we always avoided chrome because it was said to retain more heat. Show cars use it, but they're not as concerned with the heat issue. IIRC, I just heard the guy doing my CNC work tell one of his customers no to put chrome on his engine for this reason. He suggested aluminum.


Aluminum is also problematical unless you were to send it out and have flat black anodizing applied to it. In aluminum plants you can't use an optical inferred device to measure the temperature because aluminum has low emissivity (much like chrome or the inside of a glass thermos) One good thing about an aluminum sleeve pressed onto the motor case is that, if sufficiently thick, it could have liquid cooling passages drilled in it much like the Ford/Siemens AC motor. Most of the heat transfer from DC motors is from air flow. Very little would actually be from radiation. A really good heat sink device would be a pressed-on aluminum extrusion with additional cooling fins designed into the extrusion die. Many AC industrial motors have these pressed over the stator laminations. Most of the heat is generated in the copper so the best way to get that out before the insulation lets the smoke out is to use an auxiliary blower motor. We usually only see these on big industrial servo-motors.


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