# Trying to sort my wiring



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

migreig said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just getting ready to wire up my Chev. Sprint for the first time and I'm having trouble figuring out exactly how to wire the motor/controller/battery pack. I have found 4 or 5 different diagrams online and haven't been able to find anything from Curtis or ADC that has been helpful. I did a search here on the forum and didn't find anything here either.
> 
> ...


RTFM  http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/1209.1221b.1221c.1231c product manual.pdf 

Figure #7 if you have F/R contactor, figure #8 if not. 

Size cable as I recommend here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245897&postcount=6


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

major said:


> RTFM  http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/1209.1221b.1221c.1231c product manual.pdf
> 
> Figure #7 if you have F/R contactor, figure #8 if not.
> 
> Size cable as I recommend here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245897&postcount=6


Great info, thanks so much for this.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

So since that information is for a warp 9, can I go a bit smaller for a 6.7"adc motor that's rated at 500a max? I can't find any info in what to expect for typical amp draw, just that the motor and controller are 500 max.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

migreig said:


> So since that information is for a warp 9, can I go a bit smaller for a 6.7"adc motor that's rated at 500a max? I can't find any info in what to expect for typical amp draw, just that the motor and controller are 500 max.


From the reference: 



> For the battery circuit, take the Peukert adjusted ampere hour rating for your battery for a one hour discharge. Use that number for the average current for cable sizing.


For the motor circuit, use the one hour motor rating.

Take those current numbers to the ampacity chart for the type of cable you're using.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

OK, thanks for dumbing it down for a new guy. I found that the motor is rated for 130A continuous, 150A for one hour, and 500A peak. So take that and select the wire that is rated above 150A correct?

Should I use that for the battery circuit and use the next size up for the motor circuit as suggested in your other post?


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

I had been considering #1 cable and it's max current rating is 220A.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Just go 1/0. I have nearly the same specs as you and used 2/0 but a little smaller would have been better.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

migreig said:


> OK, thanks for dumbing it down for a new guy. I found that the motor is rated for 130A continuous, 150A for one hour, and 500A peak. So take that and select the wire that is rated above 150A correct?
> 
> Should I use that for the battery circuit and use the next size up for the motor circuit as suggested in your other post?


I don't know what type of wire or cable you're going to use so I don't know what the temperature rating of the insulation is. The vendor or manufacturer of the wire or cable should have a specification document containing application information such as an ampacity chart. But, I guess the slimeballs who sell wire and cable on the interweb don't supply such valuable information, at least which I can find. So let's use this: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm 

So for the motor loop, you should use #3 AWG or larger. IMO, #1 or #2 would be nice.

For the battery loop, you could just use the same, since battery current is always less than or equal to motor current. Or figure it out from the battery rating. Just guessing.....say your batteries are rated 130 Ah (C/20). Then for one hour discharge, you could see maybe 90 Amp average for that hour. From the chart, #6 or larger. I know that sounds pretty small. But from what we know, by the time the #6 wires get hot enough to damage the insulation, the battery will be drained. IMO, I'd use at least #4 and maybe #2 if the cables are long or enclosed.

Larger is better to a point. Larger wire will have less resistance and therefore higher efficiency. But calculate this out and see. Sometimes it amounts to like 0.0001% or like 1.3 watts or something meaningless like that. Sometimes it can mean 2% and several volts. It depends on your particular installation.

Larger wire can act as a heat sink and actually help cool the terminals or equipment to which it is connected.

But larger wire is heavier, consumes more space, cost more and is more difficult to route and work with. It also requires larger terminals which are more costly and sometimes awkward to use. 

This is DIY. Consider this stuff and decide for yourself


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

It is best to request a diagram from the manufacturer of the controller. I could not tell you how to wire the one you have without knowing exactly which model it is. However, the gauge of wire should be at least 1 AWG. You can not have too big a gauge of wire. O AWG is best if you have a long run of it or two parrallel runs of 1 AWG. Protect the wires by running them through non conductive conduit. I am using 1 AWG and heavy tin plated copper ring terminals that fit the 3/8 positive and 5/16 neg bolt terminals on each battery. The wire gets slightly warm but it is OK. It is also important to have a fuse rated at the maximum current of the controller to protect both the wire and the controller. I am using the chassis of the car for the negitive run since I have batteries in both the front and the back of the car. Keeping resistence low is important to prevent energy losses. Large gauges of wire and short lenghts will reduce the limiting effects of resistance and inductance. Each battery itself has internal resistance which sums in a series string. The Peukert Effect is directly related to the internal resistance. The faster you discharge a battery the greater the effect and the less is the total energy that you can get out of the battery. A long string of batteries will give you a higher voltage but also less current as the internal resistance of each battery will also sum. I am working to reduce the total resistance of the string and if sucessful I will share both the results and the circuit diagram. I am working on a low cost solution to an age old problem. Press on and remember that problems are meant to be solved not accepted.


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

My controller also draws 500 amps peak. I have tried 2 AWG and it is scary. The result was that I had buit a really big heater. 1 AWG still gets warm but is safe. Safe is better than cheap.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

sirwattsalot said:


> My controller also draws 500 amps peak. I have tried 2 AWG and it is scary. The result was that I had buit a really big heater. 1 AWG still gets warm but is safe. Safe is better than cheap.


This is probably why.


sirwattsalot said:


> I am using the chassis of the car for the negitive run since I have batteries in both the front and the back of the car.


 Talk about scary 

You obviously have your own way of doing things and I can't stop you. Please do not post up on threads like this where a fellow is trying to sort out his wiring. Start your own thread.


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

major said:


> This is probably why. Talk about scary
> 
> You obviously have your own way of doing things and I can't stop you. Please do not post up on threads like this where a fellow is trying to sort out his wiring. Start your own thread.


Yes, OK I would not pass myself off as an expert. I would highly recommend talking to an expert with the company that makes the controller before listening to opinions or following any example, even my own.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

I have decided to go 1/0 on the battery circuit and 2.0 on the motor circuit.


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## sirwattsalot (Aug 27, 2012)

Sounds good to me. Please let me know how this works out and also more about your project. I am learning from everyone who is willing to share information.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

*low voltage*

So I have all of the high voltage wiring hooked up as per the manual for the 1231c. I'm unsure about a couple of things in the low-voltage system. I bought this lot of parts out of another EV that was dismantled, and ended up with a relay I don't know what to do with.

This relay came with the package and I was told that it's for the contactor. Maybe this is simple and I'm just having a brain fart but I'm new to this and want to ask. It says 120v on it. I don't get it though, if it's 120v why would I need to to power on the contactor, it's a 12v coil. One of the wires coming from it is labelled "to key switch". Sorry if this is simple I'm just lost. It's hard with used parts that I didn't get to see in the original car. This particular one was twisted onto some household speaker wire...I'd like to do a better job than the last guy did!


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

*Re: low voltage*

I would just wire the contactor coil direct from ignition power via a fuse, but obviously this thing is there for a reason.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

This is an old thread but I just happened to find what seems like a good source for 600V rated welding cable:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WELDING-CAB...-LEADS-USA-NEW-Gauge-Copper-AWG-/251112720824

They also have crimping tools, magnet wire, and other useful items for EV projects.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

I ended up ordering mine from here;

http://www.wireandcabletogo.com/Welding-Cable/

Pricing looks similar or slightly cheaper...


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

Anybody able to help me identify that random relay?


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## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

It sound like he was using an isolation relay. If so, you don't absolutely need it. You could power the main contactor directly off the controller. I used an isolation relay on my conversion for a couple reasons. One was to reduce the current through the controller's output. The other is because I use other contacts on that relay to control other items, like the cooling pump.

I'm also guessing the reference to 120v is the contact rating. It should say something like 120v 3a or 120v 10a. Sometimes there is the dc rating for the contacts also. The dc rating will always be much lower.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks for that. I still don't completely understand how I could apply that in my car so I'm just going to forget about it for the time being. Wired direct from ignition power to contactor...simple and efficient.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

major said:


> RTFM  http://www.kta-ev.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/1209.1221b.1221c.1231c product manual.pdf
> 
> Figure #7 if you have F/R contactor, figure #8 if not.
> 
> Size cable as I recommend here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245897&postcount=6


Hi Major,

I have wired the car as per diagram #8 in that guide you sent me. I TOOK MY FIRST TEST DRIVE TODAY WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Sorry, I'm a little excited, I digress...

Here's the thing: everything works except the thing is ass-backward. It goes forward in reverse and reverse in the 5 forward gears. I have double checked and it's all wired as it should be.....help?


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Just reverse any two wires at the motor.

Roy


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Just reverse any two wires at the motor.
> 
> Roy


That simple eh? Awesome. Thank you for the help.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

migreig said:


> That simple eh? Awesome. Thank you for the help.


Wait !!!

Is this ac or dc motor....I had the impression it was ac. If not dont do what I said..

If its a dc motor you have to switch the field winding.

Roy


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

http://www.go-ev.com/

Go to info on motor wiring if you have a dc mtor.

Roy


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

Roy Von Rogers said:


> Wait !!!
> 
> Is this ac or dc motor....I had the impression it was ac. If not dont do what I said..
> 
> ...


It is a DC motor. I tried moving a few connections with no luck before reading your second post. I currently have it wired exactly as it is shown in fig. 8 here. The motor still spins backward.

I went to the page you directed me to but I'm even more confused. Should I be wiring it for clockwise or counterclockwise rotation?

If I wire it as per the first suggested method on that page, I would only have two leads coming from the motor to the controller, and I currently have 3, which terminals on the controller would I use?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Is it a DC motor with 4 terminals? DC motors with 2 terminals are only reversible if they are permanent magnet motors. 

If your DC motor has 4 terminals then you will have 2 motor terminals connected to the controller and 2 motor terminals with a jumper between them. Turn off your pack power first, then at the motor disconnect one end of the jumper and one of the terminals that goes to the controller. Now swap the connections and button everything back up. A series wound or shunt wound motor will now run the opposite direction. 

The secret to reversing a series wound motor (the most common motor in EV conversions) is to reverse either the field or the armature, but not both. If you reverse both then you have reversed the motor direction twice, which means you are turning the same way as when you started.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm not really experienced with DC series motors or the Curtis controller, but the diagram of figure 8 shows three wires to the controller. A2 of the motor (armature) must connect to A2 on the controller (which is the plug diode for plug braking current). But the diagram shows A2 of the motor connected to S1 (field) of the motor, and S2 connected to M- of the controller, which is the PWM to B-.

If you instead connect A2 of the motor to S2 of the motor, and S1 of the motor to M- of the controller, the motor should run in the opposite direction. You will still have three wires from the motor to the controller, but the field will be reversed. 

Hope this helps. Be careful!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

If you have a Curtis with the A2 connection in a street EV I don't recommend you connect A2 to anything. Save that connection for forklifts, they go a lot slower and are geared a lot lower.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> I'm not really experienced with DC series motors or the Curtis controller, but the diagram of figure 8 shows three wires to the controller. A2 of the motor (armature) must connect to A2 on the controller (which is the plug diode for plug braking current). But the diagram shows A2 of the motor connected to S1 (field) of the motor, and S2 connected to M- of the controller, which is the PWM to B-.
> 
> If you instead connect A2 of the motor to S2 of the motor, and S1 of the motor to M- of the controller, the motor should run in the opposite direction. You will still have three wires from the motor to the controller, but the field will be reversed.
> 
> Hope this helps. Be careful!


Ok, I am going to try this today, thank you. Is there any risk of damaging the motor by wiring it improperly?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

migreig said:


> Ok, I am going to try this today, thank you. Is there any risk of damaging the motor by wiring it improperly?


Not the motor from wiring but the motor from running with the timing retarded at high power levels. If the timing is advanced correctly for the one direction it will be retarded in the other direction of rotation. Unless it is a series wound DC motor with interpoles that is. The timing is done by mechanically rotating the endbell of the motor. How this is done is dependent on the motor.

You can get away with running reversed at low power levels for short periods but there can still be erosion of the brushes and damage to the commutator. You can usually see arks and sparks from the brush area if running retarded timing. So you will want to verify correct advance timing for your direction of rotation.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Obviously forklifts move forward and reverse. If they do this by electrically reversing the polarity of the field, as shown in the other diagram for the controller, I would think the brush position would be neutral. AFAIK they do not use mechanical gearboxes, but that is just an assumption. I think brush advance is mostly used in EV conversions to obtain higher speeds than forklifts. 

My advice for any forklift motor would be to have it serviced by a professional motor repair shop before installation, and they could determine if brushes are advanced. More importantly, they could check their condition and resurface the commutator and lubricate the bearings and test for electrical problems, probably for a reasonable cost.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

dougingraham said:


> Not the motor from wiring but the motor from running with the timing retarded at high power levels. If the timing is advanced correctly for the one direction it will be retarded in the other direction of rotation. Unless it is a series wound DC motor with interpoles that is. The timing is done by mechanically rotating the endbell of the motor. How this is done is dependent on the motor.
> 
> You can get away with running reversed at low power levels for short periods but there can still be erosion of the brushes and damage to the commutator. You can usually see arks and sparks from the brush area if running retarded timing. So you will want to verify correct advance timing for your direction of rotation.


I know for sure that this motor is reversible and neutrally timed.


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> I'm not really experienced with DC series motors or the Curtis controller, but the diagram of figure 8 shows three wires to the controller. A2 of the motor (armature) must connect to A2 on the controller (which is the plug diode for plug braking current). But the diagram shows A2 of the motor connected to S1 (field) of the motor, and S2 connected to M- of the controller, which is the PWM to B-.
> 
> If you instead connect A2 of the motor to S2 of the motor, and S1 of the motor to M- of the controller, the motor should run in the opposite direction. You will still have three wires from the motor to the controller, but the field will be reversed.
> 
> Hope this helps. Be careful!


Then what do i do with a1?


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

migreig said:


> Then what do i do with a1?


According to the manual, in all cases A1 is connected to B+, on the controller and to the battery pack. It goes through the main pack fuse and the power relay, of course.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

If you go the link I provided earlier, you will find a pictorial of a hook up under "Series Motor Bench Test Procedure". And in another section it explains the sequence how to hook up the directional, under "Motor Wiring".

http://www.go-ev.com/

Roy


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## migreig (Aug 5, 2011)

PStechPaul said:


> I'm not really experienced with DC series motors or the Curtis controller, but the diagram of figure 8 shows three wires to the controller. A2 of the motor (armature) must connect to A2 on the controller (which is the plug diode for plug braking current). But the diagram shows A2 of the motor connected to S1 (field) of the motor, and S2 connected to M- of the controller, which is the PWM to B-.
> 
> If you instead connect A2 of the motor to S2 of the motor, and S1 of the motor to M- of the controller, the motor should run in the opposite direction. You will still have three wires from the motor to the controller, but the field will be reversed.
> 
> Hope this helps. Be careful!


OK, I did this exactly as you described and it works like a charm. I think it may be more complicated than necessary as I still have three wires from the motor to controller but I can address that at a later time.

First test drive with forward gears was AWESOME!!!

Thanks everybody for all your help!


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