# Netgain PulsaR



## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The smaller device is their current model industrial controller, and the one on the right is the controller, charger, and DC-to-DC converter rolled into one, right?

The other device looks like a hall-effect throttle correct?

In my build, space in not a problem.  Are they taking pre-orders?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Can anyone scan in the brochure?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

There is now a little bit of information on the Netgain web site. Not a whole lot but some.

http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php​


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## EVSource Mikey (Apr 24, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Thought you'd all like a quick pic of the device. The smaller device is Netgains huge industrial controller next to the charger which is even larger. Ouch.


The volume of the industrial controller is lower than comparable controllers. Likewise the Pulsar is certainly smaller than separate units. I understand that these are comparably larger than the Synkromotive controller though. 8^)




Caps18 said:


> The smaller device is their current model industrial controller, and the one on the right is the controller, charger, and DC-to-DC converter rolled into one, right?
> 
> The other device looks like a hall-effect throttle correct?
> 
> In my build, space in not a problem.  Are they taking pre-orders?


Yes, that is an accurate description of the picture. And yes, EV Source is taking pre-orders over email. ([email protected])




njloof said:


> Can anyone scan in the brochure?



Here you are:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=193&pictureid=1101


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

It didn't large in person to me at all. If you figure in the size of a 500 amp controller, charger, and DC-DC converter together it seems compact. The unit is tiny in comparison to some chargers such as the ELCON chargers. Remember you don't need to have the other large devices since this is all combined into one package.

There's not enough detail about it though and it seems like the package was rushed for the EVCCON show. There were a few questions when the device was presented that left me thinking that the unit was a box that wasn't up and running yet or that there were specifications that didn't exist due to not being tested. It did have a good reaction at the show though.

I think that this is a great solution for someone who needs a compact setup.
Even with all that being said I'm presonally still looking at the Soliton Jr and looking to hear more about the possibility mentioned about the Evnetics charger/dc-dc combo device mentioned at the show.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

I'm looking for a charger and DC/DC, and this looks good. I've been hoping for a quality DC-DC converter to become available. Looks like, from the netgain site, the 500 amp controller is a $1000 option. $3450 without controller sounds about right for a quality automotive grade component. I will be looking for details like electric connections, BMS interface, user interface, charge profile detail (hopefully CC to CV with a configurable voltage limit and terrmination current). The Evnetics charger/ DC-DC would get some consideration from me, too. Not sure when their product will be ready.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

EVSource Mikey said:


> Here you are:
> [URL="http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=193&pictureid=1101"]http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/album.php?albumid=193&pictureid=1101[/URL]


SynkroMotive is spelled wrong, It's all one word with a K, not "Synchro motive" or "Syncro Motive as you have it spelled in two different places.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Looks like this thing is going to be pretty ridiculous. In a good way.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Watch Jacks new video. He talks about it. I like it. Looks to be full of goodies. For those with systems already in place it will be a game changer. I do agree. Those that poo poo'ed the idea now are thinking twice. Still seems a bit high but if you purchase these to build fast charge systems on a business plan then they are priced quite well. I'd like to see a higher amperage rectifier for three phase AC. I am using a 1600 volt 200 amp three phase rectifier for the same thing. Fast charging AC.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> I am using a 1600 volt 200 amp three phase rectifier for the same thing. Fast charging AC.


What the heck are you charging at 320,000 W?  And how much did the dedicated line from the nuclear reactor cost?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> What the heck are you charging at 320,000 W?  And how much did the dedicated line from the nuclear reactor cost?


No no no, UP TO 1600 volts. It will handle 120 volts just fine. Since my controller can't handle 220 volts I must use a 120 volt input then bump it up via the inductor to pack voltage. But mine carries more amperage.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

In Jacks video he hinted that there might be a 1000A model... It might cost $5,000 and take a little longer to come out, but that would be great.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

In this week's EVTV episode Jack ever so casually mentioned how we dismissed his request to use an Evnetics controller as a rapid charger but he did not mention why; namely:

1. It is not isolated from the AC line.
2. It can not do power factor correction when supplied by the AC line.
3. It uses the motor's field winding as the buck inductor which will incur relatively large losses on a percentage basis because the "core" of the "inductor" is the solid steel motor casing.
4. It requires lots of contactors to rearrange the orientation of the controller's "battery" and "motor" terminals.

In addition, neither this device nor the similar one from Synkromotive have been tested and approved by a "Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory" for connection to an AC line. Good luck with your insurance company if your car or house catch on fire because this thing has catastrophically failed.


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## Spydar (Mar 12, 2012)

So when are you planning to release your charger then?

Would rather another high power option but if does not exist I can not but it from you.

I'm not sure the pulsaR uses the motors field winding as the inductor. Jack mentioned that it could be used with and AC controller motor option.

Love your Products
Thank you for your time


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Spydar said:


> So when are you planning to release your charger then?


If only I could predict the future well enough to answer that question... 

That said, it will be quite a while before our charger is ready for sale, but we are also taking a very different tack with it than NetGain Controls did, too. Frankly, you aren't going to find a 100A charger (is that the right spec?) for anywhere close to the price that NetGain Controls is asking, so if you can overlook the technical (and liability) concerns I outlined above then by all means consider getting the PulsaR.

I want to emphasize that I did not reply to this thread to dissuade anyone from buying the PulsaR, I just didn't like how Jack portrayed our reluctance to make our controllers into a rapid charger as disinterested dismissal.

[Hmm... upon re-reading my emails concerning this with Chris Fisher - not Jack - it seems that while I did explain some of the technical reasons for not wanting to do this I also said we weren't too interested in doing it, either... ]



Spydar said:


> Would rather another high power option but if does not exist I can not but it from you.


Any high power charger from us will be *substantially* more costly than NetGain's because I am going to insist that it be power factor corrected, isolated and UL/ETL listed. 



Spydar said:


> I'm not sure the pulsaR uses the motors field winding as the inductor. Jack mentioned that it could be used with and AC controller motor option....


Hmm... you're right, but not for the reason you think. You _could_ use one of the phase windings in an ACIM as the buck inductor in a rapid charger, but then you wouldn't have a DC motor controller available to be the buck converter!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The Synkromotive Controller does PFC. 

10KW and 20KW charging from AC Source. 

The actual measured efficiency of this system is better than 94% including power factor error.

The charger uses the routine of CC/CV until about c/5 or so then terminates.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> The Synkromotive Controller does PFC. ...


Not as a buck converter it doesn't... PFC requires a boost-derived topology to maintain a continuous input current waveform. 

That said, until Synkromotive describes how to use their controller as a charger in the owner's manual, and explicitly okays this use under their warranty, then this functionality does not exist. At best you can call it a hack. Nothing wrong with hacking, mind you, as long as you don't care about voiding the warranty.

Finally, if you sell the Synkromotive controller - as your blog suggests - then you should refrain from making sales pitches for them in posts outside of the marketplace subforums here.

P.S. - I'm still poo-pooing this idea. If the market disagrees with me and both the Synkro and PulsaR start selling like hotcakes THEN I'll change my tune. To paraphrase both R.E.M. and Jack, "dollars are the only vote that matters".


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Then where is your POO POO on Tesla's FAST charging? Me thinks its really more an issue of competition. You do yours your way. Tesla does it their way. Synkromotive does it their way. Jack and Company does it their way and all is good. You don't have to like it or agree with it. 

Most of all, you don't have to BUY it. 

I actually don't SELL Synkromotive Controllers. Why? Because I don't rip anyone off. If they can get it from Synkromotive just as easy as they can from me for less why on earth would you buy from ME. It is actually just letting you know they are for sale. It is an actual item you can buy from THEM. I support them. I use them. If you look on my site you won't find any STORE or any place to place an order. So I will mention them all I want when I want and will continue to show you what it does. 

Yes it does PFC and yes it is under BOOST. 

It is real nice that folks POO POO things without knowing how things work. 

If the information is not given you have NO CLUE. 

Do you KNOW the inner workings of the Synkromotive and PulsaR?

Or is it you THINK you know. 

Put the POO POO where it belongs.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Pete,

Tesseract makes a good point asking why Synkromotive give so little information about their controller's charging ability. I've searched repeatedly for more information on this controller as the nominal specifications fit my conversion well, but there is precious little on the website or from users.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Its called time to update the manual. Sorely long overdue. Synkromotive was under Beta Testing long before Soliton1 and was proven long before you could buy it publicly. Synkromotive is and has been under the radar for far too long and in my opinion should have been promoted with great vigor, but it was not. Just because its not in the manual does not mean its a HACK. It was DESIGNED for this very purpose. It was not an AFTER THOUGHT OR AFTER OH BY THE WAY. Many built in features were not and are not in the manual at this time. I am trying to get the rectified.  

Still it is an ass kicking controller.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

MalcolmB said:


> Pete,
> 
> Tesseract makes a good point asking why Synkromotive give so little information about their controller's charging ability. I've searched repeatedly for more information on this controller as the nominal specifications fit my conversion well, but there is precious little on the website or from users.


I had a similar concern before I bought my Synkromotive. Why is there no info about it?  Mine has been in use for a year or so now, no problems at all. Solid mature product. I'm itchin to use the built in charging function, but am waiting patiently (sometimes not so patiently) for Ives to release the docs explaining how to do it. Soon, I'm told... we'll see. 

The facts that I do know as of now... it only works off of 110vac so no J1772 charging, and your battery pack needs to have between 56-60 cells to use the controller as an AC charger.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

It's not limited to 50-60 cells. I had a 72VDC pack and it charged it just fine. I could also charge with a DC power supply (I had a 1000W 48VDC power supply and it worked well). At the time, I manually connected the controller/motor/batteries because I didn't have room for extra contactors to put it in the right configuration.

Ives truck and My motorcycle were the first beta testing vehicles for Synkromotive DC controller.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

frodus said:


> It's not limited to 50-60 cells. I had a 72VDC pack and it charged it just fine. I could also charge with a DC power supply (I had a 1000W 48VDC power supply and it worked well). At the time, I manually connected the controller/motor/batteries because I didn't have room for extra contactors to put it in the right configuration.
> 
> Ives truck and My motorcycle were the first beta testing vehicles for Synkromotive DC controller.


Anything below pack voltage can be used for DC charging, but I'm talking about the 'charger in a box' Ives is spec'ing out for AC charging with the controller. Anyway, the confusion around what the Synkro can and can't do, and what the requirements are, only add to the fact that it is not ready to go. It's not in the manual, it's not avaliable to the end user. Until it is, it doesn't exist. Even though it works right now.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That's right, I think we only used DC charging, I had forgotten (It was 3+ years ago). Appologies.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

AC is limited to 58/60 cells. DC has no limits except that the DC source needs to be lower than the pack. The controller can't do higher than 240 volts so you can't use 240 to charge with. So you are limited to high amperage 120 volt circuit or you can use any normal 30 amp circuit and limit to 15 amps so it won't trip the breaker. I will be setting up the 200 amp 120 volt circuit dedicated and will use 100 amp setting on the controller which will do a good 50 amps into the battery. I can double that but no more with the Synkromotive. Unlike the PulsaR which can utilize the 240 circuit. The PulsaR is pretty much designed for fast DC and respectable AC charging. The Synkromotive Controller will do very high currents if you go with DC source charging I am setting up for AC but may go back to using DC. It will be faster. I was thinking of using my old Arc Welder to generate the low voltage high current DC source from a 240 outlet. I will check to see how well that might work. 

Pete 

We are working on editing for putting this into the manual.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Then where is your POO POO on Tesla's FAST charging? Me thinks its really more an issue of competition. You do yours your way. Tesla does it their way. Synkromotive does it their way. Jack and Company does it their way and all is good. You don't have to like it or agree with it.


I didn't say I was opposed to fast charging, rather, I just don't like the specific case of using a DC motor controller - and especially the field of the motor - as a fast charger. The controller was not designed to be connected to the AC line and if it was then it would carry around a lot of expensive and bulky components (namely the EMI filter and spike protection) that simply aren't necessary in battery-powered applications. Furthermore, the field winding of the typical DC motor makes for a poor (lossy) SMPS inductor while the motor itself is often contaminated with brush dust and/or dirt and water which can provide a potentially dangerous leakage current pathway from the AC line to the vehicle chassis.

What Tesla is doing with fast charging is a total non sequitur. It sounds like a great idea to me, actually, but it has absolutely no relevance to us DIYers unless Tesla will let anyone buy their proprietary charging connector for use on a non-Tesla EV.

And yeah, we do do things our way and other companies do things their way and I don't have to like it or agree with it... In other words, I can freely express my dislike for another company's approach to product design as I have done here? Great! 



onegreenev said:


> I actually don't SELL Synkromotive Controllers.


Okay - my mistake. It says on your blog, "Synkromotive controllers on sale now," so I *assumed* that meant you were selling them. 



onegreenev said:


> Yes it does PFC and yes it is under BOOST.


On what page of the manual does it say that again??? 



onegreenev said:


> It is real nice that folks POO POO things without knowing how things work.


You can't seriously think I don't know how this stuff works... I mean, have you been living under a rock for 4 years or what? 

(For those who haven't been here that long, my first post here about 4 years ago was an analysis of a blown-up Kelly controller which sorely offended Pete because he was a cheerleader for Kelly controllers at the time. Pete doesn't much defend Kelly these days, however....)

One last thing I am really curious about is how come Jack never bothered testing a Synkromotive despite it having all these whiz-bang features that he has wanted for so long? I mean, was he simply not aware that Synkromotive existed? It must be killing those guys that Jack dumped a bunch of money on Ryan just to add similar functionality into the new PulsaR...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well not much to say about most of that but......



> I didn't say I was opposed to fast charging, rather, I just don't like the specific case of using a DC motor controller - and especially the field of the motor - as a fast charger.


What would you propose as a way to regulate a large stationary DC source that is able to provide plenty of power for charging many vehicles. Why not a DC motor controller? You need to move electrons and your batteries are DC. So it is pretty natural to want to use a device (DC Controller) to put that power back into the batteries. Regen on AC cars must rectify the AC output back to DC then back into the batteries. 

What then in general would you suggest and DO? I am not wanting to ARGUE here as I am not an electron wizard. What seems logical may seem right but not always so and if that is the TRUE case here then by all means educate us rather than bash. 



> You can't seriously think I don't know how this stuff works... I mean, have you been living under a rock for 4 years or what?


No I have not been under a ROCK.  I was referring to your comment about Synkromotive. Did you buy one and reverse engineer the sucker? Yes Jack is aware of Synkromotive and it's abilities and yes he has talked with them. Beyond that Who the heck knows and who really cares. I don't think he did a DEMO with DC Curtis controllers or many others for that matter. Nor the Zilla. Ives could care less what Jack thinks. Ives has other things he is working on besides the Synkromotive controller. 

Yes, I did defend Kelly because the I did not see for quite some time the issues that others were talking about. I heard about them but frankly most were just bashing AN OLD ISSUE, note ISSUE not ISSUES. Most of all the issues WERE and DID stem from their very first batch of controllers. A few that were rectified except those that decided not to deal with them directly and take matters into their OWN hands and bash them. They ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS took care of ANY ISSUE relating to their products. I STILL will stand by them. I was a BETA tester for a specific controller we were working on for the OLD Starter/Generator used long ago. We thought it would be a fun project to come up with a usable version of controller so folks who had these old things still around could benefit by having a modern controller. We went through three different versions. By the time I got through the last the engineer that originally started this with US had moved on to a different company and Kelly decided to drop the project. I had no hard feelings and it was only a project. That last beta unit could not handle FULL ON regen. It did partial REGEN just fine but the motor pumped out gobbs of amps and the controller just could not handle that. Yup. it up and died on FULL regen. Project was shelved from Kelly and then Me. Sold off my last KELLY Controller that was and is fully functional. Plain old 144 volt 800 amp DC controller with NO bells and Whistles. 

I only use Synkromotive right now but will endorse many others including the Soliton1. Can't say anything bad about that sucker. Nor any thing bad about Netgain products either nor Synkromotive except one thing. I really do not like the plastic ends on the controller. Ives is aware. Besides that and besides the manual being an empty horse the controller is a powerhouse for its size and weight. So there is that rant. 


As for Selling Sykromotive Controllers I can see why you said that. I will fix that. I put that up the DAY Synkromotive became a publicly available controller. You do know that they extensively BETA tested the controller in the hands of many for many years before going public. You know, this DIY site is not the only source for selling these things. He has sold many and not a single one has come back for any reason since they started using these. Ives has used his for a long time and has always used the charging function. I see no reason why the J1772 could not be incorporated into this for a nice charging port in your vehicle. 



> The delays in presentation and promotion of the Synkromotive motor
> controller charging feature is due in large part to the significant amount
> of customer support time DIYers could require if the system is not both well
> documented and well devised.
> ...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The manual is done well but yes it leaves out SOME things. 

For those that want, you can check out the manual here:

http://www.synkromotive.com/index_files/DC Controller manual.pdf


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Well not much to say about most of that but......


Actually, I appreciate both your approach and response this go around and so I will repay courtesy with courtesy.



onegreenev said:


> What would you propose as a way to regulate a large stationary DC source that is able to provide plenty of power for charging many vehicles. Why not a DC motor controller?


Indeed, a DC motor controller is just a big buck converter that only needs an inductor (and, optionally, a separate voltage monitoring circuit) to rapidly charge a lower voltage battery pack from a higher voltage one so why not use it as one?

With respect to the specific situation of using a stationary bank of batteries as the source of energy, my only - somewhat minor - objections to using the DC motor controller which is _installed in the car_ as a charger are:

1. You need a bunch of contactors to re-wire the controller and,
2. either re-wire the motor field as the buck inductor or to insert an external inductor to do that job.

I really don't like to see contactors in the motor circuit of the controller for reliability reasons, and there needs to be quite a few of them to do all this on-the-fly rewiring, but if those are acceptable costs to the end user then I really don't have any other major problems with using a controller as a rapid charger. And, sure, the motor's field will cost you a point or two in efficiency, but an inductor purposefully designed for this application would likely cost several hundred dollars (perhaps over $1000) so probably not worth the price paid, all things considered.

The application I am really opposed to, then, is using any old DC motor controller as a mains-supplied charger, especially when it is installed in the car and using the motor's field as either the buck or boost inductor. As I mentioned before, there are practical, regulatory and safety concerns with doing this. Complying with EMC and safety regulations might not seem terribly important over here but it is mandatory to sell an electronic product in the EU. And given that the EU is the *largest* market in the world (by GDP, though the US will likely surpass them once again this year), any company that willfully ignores it by making non-compliant products is not a serious player, in my opinion. 

The EU (and the US, to a lesser extent) also have some pretty stringent requirements for non-isolated mains-powered devices. This generally consists of larger "creepage" and "clearance" distances along with so-called "double" or "reinforced" insulation. Simultaneously complying with noise emission and ground fault leakage current specifications is also incredibly difficult. You really need to purposefully design a product for connection to the mains, especially for the EU; an ad hoc "just add a rectifier and filter and you're good to go" won't fly.

Finally, any device connected to the AC mains needs to be protected from spikes (transient overvoltage) and surges (prolonged periods of overvoltage). Failing to adequately protect against these all-too-common phenomena results in stuff like this happening:

Smart car charging battery in garage starts house fire.

Personally, I think a mains-supplied charger should be power factor corrected (a requirement in the EU), incorporate transformer isolation, and be EMI-filtered (another requirement in the EU, "voluntary" in the US). Ground fault detection can be used in lieu of transformer isolation, but will likely result in many nuisance trips.

Note that my objections here are "product neutral" - indeed, they apply just as much to the (ab)use of Evnetics controllers as to the Synkromotive and NetGain Controls (though to be fair, the new PulsaR addresses some of the safety concerns by putting the high voltage connections inside the enclosure).



onegreenev said:


> Did you buy one and reverse engineer the sucker?


Nope, I do not reverse engineer other people's products. I do take a careful look at them, and try to get a good feel for their pluses and minuses, but I like to do things my own way as should be evidenced by the radically different look of our controllers compared to the usual "sheet metal shoebox with bus bars sticking out one end". No offense to the various colored shoeboxes of the world... 

I enjoyed the rest of your post concerning Kelly, etc., but don't feel the need to comment on it nor, especially, argue over it (nothing really to argue about, anyway).


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I have noticed the power coming in to my home (I actually monitor because of our solar) that the voltage is all over the place all the time. Not terrible spikes and dips but very much not smooth. It looks smooth on a second to second basis but not on an hourly basis. Graph supplied below. The graph is this morning and showing a 4 hour period of time. The top red line is mains power into the home. 

This is what I know. I can only use one leg for 120 volts because the controller does not support 240 volts. It is a 192 volt controller. It is advertised at less but will fully support 192 volts with no problem. One leg is connected as a dedicated circuit in a panel and with an appropriately rated circuit breaker. This way you can actually have a 200amp 120 volt circuit in which to charge from. You take this and connect up in a closed box so no terminals are exposed to a rectifier of an appropriate size. I currently have two 1600 volt 200 amp rectifiers for this purpose. When connected I put in 124 volts and get out the rectified side 122 volts. I know that this voltage will still fluctuate as the mains fluctuate. From there this goes into an inductor because I am charging a 192 volt pack from 122 volts main rectified. From there the controller takes charge of the power coming in and regulates the charge function and regulates the fluctuating power and makes better use of the fluctuating nature of the power coming in and to the batteries. 

So a question! What would you use to smooth out those spikes before you run the power through a rectifier? Or would you use something else after its been rectified to DC then filter the DC with an inductor? Not quite sure how all that filtering stuff works. 

Pete 

Hope what I just said makes sense.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> No offense to the various colored shoeboxes of the world...


No offense. I'd like to see most go to those through the wall posts so you can completely cover them and have any terminal bars internal. Much harder to cover them when poking through the sides. That I don't disagree with but what I don't like is a real heavy brick either. I do like the sheet metal covering. It's light weight and no likely to have any thing sitting on it to need the strength of the heavy aluminum casing of the Soliton1. I do like it. It's pretty and looks tough. Yes the Synkro looks weenie in comparison but visual vs practical? I think they could widen the stainless case to cover the terminals and then put in through posts like used on the Soliton1 for a solid solution. That would leave room for more parts in the case. 

Best stop before I go on an on. 

It only requires a total of three contactors for the charge scheme. The main and two others for switching. Works great. Not a single contactor got hot in the process of high amperage DC charging when I had it hooked up.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I will say that I am surprised that water cooling is still an acceptable practice or is needed. It is one thing I like about the SynkroMotive. Although if I were still in Phoenix, the sand and dust that would get into it would be a problem.

I would think that it could be designed with an air scoop or fans of some sort. Or work on efficiency or wire size to prevent the high amperage loads from generating all that heat.

I do wonder if that heat could be used to warm the cabin of the vehicle though.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Caps18 said:


> I will say that I am surprised that water cooling is still an acceptable practice or is needed. It is one thing I like about the SynkroMotive.


I think you have that backwards. As controllers are getting more powerful, water cooling is more important. Even required at higher power levels. Keep in mind, even the Soliton Jr. puts out significantly more power than the Synkromotive, 340v x 600a = 204kW. The Synkro, despite having a higher current peak, is 180v x 750a = 135kW.

I will say I'm pretty impressed by the Synkro's ability to cool, it's a powerful fan, yet still pretty quiet. I have not seen it de-rate yet, even in summer. But my power level is even lower, at 130v x 500a = 65kW, and that's just at peak. Steady usage is more like 20kw or less.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

dladd said:


> I think you have that backwards. As controllers are getting more powerful, water cooling is more important. Even required at higher power levels. Keep in mind, even the Soliton Jr. puts out significantly more power than the Synkromotive, 340v x 600a = 204kW. The Synkro, despite having a higher current peak, is 180v x 750a = 135kW.
> 
> I will say I'm pretty impressed by the Synkro's ability to cool, it's a powerful fan, yet still pretty quiet. I have not seen it de-rate yet, even in summer. But my power level is even lower, at 130v x 500a = 65kW, and that's just at peak. Steady usage is more like 20kw or less.


That is the thing. While the max peak might be very high, I will only be putting in 120V x 500A for a few seconds. (Or 144V x 500A, 120V x 1000A) The setup is the same though is you use 20% of the controller or 100%. And I'll be honest, I'm looking to buy the 'Dell' or 'Apple' computer equivalent for this project. Not a part-by-part Linux computer. I use Linux at home, but when I am driving out on the road, I want everything to work, and when I spend this kind of money, I want to know that I can just plug in a few wires into the right places and it will work. Namely the battery wires, a J1772 plug, and the motor wires. All the 12V ones for the lights, wipers, and stereo are fine. I hate to be negative, but the process to get this truck of mine to this stage took way too long.

60kW is a lot of power for a short period of time. But we should be looking at ways to use that heat. In the winter in Ohio, since I don't have a heater that will work when driving, should I look into using the heater block that is still in the cabin? It probably still has radiator fluid in it. It has to be better than nothing. I can swap the hoses in April.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> ...So a question! What would you use to smooth out those spikes before you run the power through a rectifier? Or would you use something else after its been rectified to DC then filter the DC with an inductor? Not quite sure how all that filtering stuff works....


This is something that Synkromotive ought to specify if they are going to claim their controller can be hooked up to the AC mains and used a charger. Given both that Synkro is my competitor and that I don't think this is a good idea, anyway, I have little motivation to do their engineering work for them... 




Caps18 said:


> I will say that I am surprised that water cooling is still an acceptable practice or is needed. It is one thing I like about the SynkroMotive. Although if I were still in Phoenix, the sand and dust that would get into it would be a problem.


If you have a fan-cooled heatsink for the CPU in your computer I invite you to take a closer look at the fan blades and heatsink fins and tell me what you see... The biggest problem I have with relying on forced-air cooling, then, is that crud tends to build up on the fins over time, gradually reducing the effectiveness of the heatsink. I freely admit that this is mainly an *opinion* of mine, however; I prefer liquid cooling just like I prefer IGBTs at these voltage and current levels (though the newest "CoolMOS" and SiC MOSFETs are very intriguing devices).

I haven't looked inside a SynkroMotive controller so I can't do a loss analysis on it, but generally speaking the conduction loss in MOSFETs is proportional to the square of current while it is essentially a linear function of current in IGBTs. If we assume for the moment that the total losses are the same for both types of controller at full rated output current, then the MOSFET-based controller will have half the losses of the IGBT-based controller at half rated output current. For example, if the conduction loss at full rated current results in 800W of heat then the MOSFET-based controller will exhibit 200W in conduction losses at 1/2 rated output while the IGBT-based controller will exhibit 400W of losses at the same operating point. (NB - switching losses in both controllers is not considered here as it is a much more complex function depending on many more parameters than conduction loss)

It seems like MOSFETs are a clear winner, then. Like most things in life, however, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (TAASTAFL). Conduction losses in the MOSFET are the result of the resistance between the drain and source terminals and this resistance increases rapidly with voltage rating. MOSFETs also have a much lower amperage rating for a given die area and blocking voltage rating. What this basically means is that MOSFETs only have a compelling advantage at lower voltage ratings or at lower current ratings but high frequency (ie - like in high frequency switching power supplies). IGBTs tend to be much more rugged than MOSFETs and most of them will self-limit fault current in the event of a short-circuit (so-called "desaturation") which greatly relaxes the speed requirements for the current-limiting circuit.

Etc. and so on... The point being that each device has its pluses and minuses, and preferred applications. Given the operating voltage limit of the SynkroMotive controller, there's no question that MOSFETs are the superior choice, just as IGBTs are the superior choice for controllers rated at 300V+.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> This is something that Synkromotive ought to specify if they are going to claim their controller can be hooked up to the AC mains and used a charger. Given both that Synkro is my competitor and that I don't think this is a good idea, anyway, I have little motivation to do their engineering work for them...


I actually asked for myself but since I am talking about Synkromotive Controllers I understand your reluctance. No problem. 

I also know that the issue of crap building up on the heat sink can be an issue so it's actually not an opinion. It would be good if there were a way to open the side so you could do a bit of cleaning now and again with a brush on those cooling fins. But so far even mine in our DIRTY environment looks remarkably clean. The heat sink does a bang up job getting the heat out and the design actually does not produce gobbs of heat to begin with. 

Two models were built in the beginning. One with mosfets and one with IGBT's. IGBT's won the battle but neither could be caused to overheat and go into thermal cutback. With the higher currents it can do a larger fan was utilized over the original. However the original works great at cooling. 

Anyway it was good talking. Can't wait until my VW Roadster is on the road. 

Pete


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> This is something that Synkromotive ought to specify if they are going to claim their controller can be hooked up to the AC mains and used a charger. Given both that Synkro is my competitor and that I don't think this is a good idea, anyway, I have little motivation to do their engineering work for them...


I actually asked for myself but since I am talking about Synkromotive Controllers I understand your reluctance. No problem. 

I also know that the issue of crap building up on the heat sink can be an issue so it's actually not an opinion. It would be good if there were a way to open the side so you could do a bit of cleaning now and again with a brush on those cooling fins. But so far even mine in our DIRTY environment looks remarkably clean. The heat sink does a bang up job getting the heat out and the design actually does not produce gobbs of heat to begin with. 

Two models were built in the beginning. One with mosfets and one with IGBT's. IGBT's won the battle but neither could be caused to overheat and go into thermal cutback. With the higher currents it can produce more heat so a larger fan was utilized over the original. However the original works great at cooling. 

Anyway it was good talking. Can't wait until my VW Roadster is on the road. 

Pete


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

I was looking at the issues of Mosfet vs IGBT and thought why not build a hybrid controller to maximized efficiency it would be needlessly complex route to improve efficiency, but might be a neat engineering exorcise. One could avoid the switching losses of the big silicon when it is not needed. Has anyone combined a Mosfet and IGBT controllers in one drive system? Maybe with Wayne’s adapter we could couple an AC-50 with a DC motor, if anyone is interested in doing something like this I would like to see the results. I am sure others have thought of a AC/DC hybrid also.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Caps18 said:


> 60kW is a lot of power for a short period of time. But we should be looking at ways to use that heat. In the winter in Ohio, since I don't have a heater that will work when driving, should I look into using the heater block that is still in the cabin? It probably still has radiator fluid in it. It has to be better than nothing. I can swap the hoses in April.


Has anybody done this before? I am pretty sure that there is a little 'radiator' in the cabin (I'll have to look for it this weekend), and the vent fan will be controlled. But, I can purchase a T type plumbing switch I bet, so I can direct the anti-freeze (I'm assuming you use anti-freeze for the 'water' cooling) to the inside of the cabin in the winter and the outside during the summer.

It won't be wasted heat then, it will provide more heat than the zero I had been planning.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> Has anybody done this before? I am pretty sure that there is a little 'radiator' in the cabin (I'll have to look for it this weekend), and the vent fan will be controlled. But, I can purchase a T type plumbing switch I bet, so I can direct the anti-freeze (I'm assuming you use anti-freeze for the 'water' cooling) to the inside of the cabin in the winter and the outside during the summer.
> 
> It won't be wasted heat then, it will provide more heat than the zero I had been planning.


If you search the forum you'll likely find a number of posts on this topic. Bottom line: these DC controllers don't put out enough heat to make a dent in your cab heating load and it's really not worth the effort. Waste heat from your controller will likely be somewhere in the range of a few hundred watts which is (in my opinion) a factor of 10 less then what a cab heater needs to produce.

Back to the OPs topic...

I'll leave the discussion of engineering approach to those of you with far more expertise then myself but, power electronics aside, I have to say that I really like the PulsaR's integrated approach. I know the old school conversion crowd may disagree but for my money I'd love to see a good quality controller, dc/dc, and charger all integrated into one box with all the necessary contactors and precharge controls.

Integrating the charger and dc/dc makes alot of sense to me and I think this product is going to be very attractive to folks who are new to the ev conversion game and don't want to mess around with crappy dc/dc converters and non-programable chinese chargers with horrible owners manuals...wait thats me


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Yukon_Shane said:


> If you search the forum you'll likely find a number of posts on this topic. Bottom line: these DC controllers don't put out enough heat to make a dent in your cab heating load and it's really not worth the effort. Waste heat from your controller will likely be somewhere in the range of a few hundred watts which is (in my opinion) a factor of 10 less then what a cab heater needs to produce.


Well, if you are in the Yukon...  Yeah, you will need a lot more watts of heat. 

I was going to use a 1500W ceramic heater for a few minutes to pre-warm the cabin in the morning here. But after that I would think 300-500W would be 'enough'. It is usually 32F-45F (0C-5C) here in the winter. But there are a few days that are really cold. And like I said, even if it doesn't 'work' it is more heat than I was planning on when driving down the road, and the components are already installed.

I'll look for some other posts to see how it has fared for other people.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

No reason not to plumb the heater core into your cooling loop at least to try the concept. You could even duplicate a factory cooling system with a small radiator, a thermostat, and your heater core in the loop.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> Well, if you are in the Yukon...  Yeah, you will need a lot more watts of heat.
> 
> I was going to use a 1500W ceramic heater for a few minutes to pre-warm the cabin in the morning here. But after that I would think 300-500W would be 'enough'. It is usually 32F-45F (0C-5C) here in the winter. But there are a few days that are really cold. And like I said, even if it doesn't 'work' it is more heat than I was planning on when driving down the road, and the components are already installed.
> 
> I'll look for some other posts to see how it has fared for other people.


Give it a try and let us know how it works. I believe Dimitri, on this forum, tried something similiar with his soliton1 a few years back. If I recall correctly he didn't find it worked very well but you may have different results.

It's my first winter with my EV so I'm experimenting with heating strategies right now as well. I'll offer this, it was around -6C here this morning and my 3,000 watt heater was working pretty good but I'm not sure it's going to be enough to keep me warm at -20.


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

I wonder if that would work with AC water cooled motors =/


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

On Netgain's website, they say they will come out with a 1000A model in the Spring of 2013... It looks like I have a dilemma on my hands now... I guess I have a few more months to save up the money for it.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> There is now a little bit of information on the Netgain web site. Not a whole lot but some.
> 
> http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php​


So EVSource had these listed as shipping in December. Anyone have one in the flesh yet?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I am interested in this to. I watched the EV source website (http://www.evsource.com/pulsar1.php) and they haven't updated anything...

I would like to buy the 1000A model in late Spring, early Summer, but I'm not sure how their schedule is doing. I also hope they are doing it right.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

An off the cuff remark on one of the last two EVTV episodes...I can't remember which or when...indicated that they have not even completed the prototype yet, let alone a production version. I too am excited about this project, but it looks like its currently vaporware and may be so for some time. I'm eagerly awaiting some more formal news about the product as well.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

He prototype talk was on blog.evtv.me from December 28th, titled I THINK – THEREFORE I CAN.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Jack @ evtv said:


> We also have the PulsaR in the wings. I was supposed to have 10 of these in stock by November 15. The first working prototype actually isn’t in test yet. But the task turned into an engineering challenge, and I’m told the THREE now PCBoards are off to assembly this week. Should have one in test soon. And hopefully we’ll get one shortly after.


ok...here is the pertinent part.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

It looks like controllers will have to start coming with speakers for use at low speeds...

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/0...ehicles-will-need-to-make-alert/#aol-comments


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

For OEMs...old news.

I'd prefer the death penalty for iPodders crossing the road. Modern ICE sedans are nearly silent at low speeds except for the tires, which most EVs come with.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I second your motion. 

Had to stop for a person walking down the middle of the parking lot while engrossed in the iPhone. He did not see me and I had to honk at him to get him to stop and look. He was about 5 feet from running into me while I was stopped waiting for him to get out of the way. Shit on the noise makers. The horn works great.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

If you've ever traveled to the so-called "third world" you know that there the universal sound of an approaching vehicle is the car horn.


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## swoozle (Nov 13, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> For OEMs...old news.
> 
> I'd prefer the death penalty for iPodders crossing the road. Modern ICE sedans are nearly silent at low speeds except for the tires, which most EVs come with.


I second that (except for the death-penalty part ).


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Should all these be in another thread? Has nothing to do with PulsaR.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Well...some artificial EV noise makers sound like pulsars...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> Should all these be in another thread? Has nothing to do with PulsaR.



Tis all good. The pulsar is not ready for prime time yet anyway. Still hanging in the breeze. So lets talk about noise makers. My horn works just fine thank you very much.


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## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> Tis all good. The pulsar is not ready for prime time yet anyway. Still hanging in the breeze.


Prime time...not even ready for post midnight infomercial...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

palmer_md said:


> Prime time...not even ready for post midnight infomercial...


*LOL* Good one. Poor Jack. Little premature with his product I guess.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Any news on ship dates for the PulsaR?


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## EVSource Mikey (Apr 24, 2012)

NetGain controls still assures May delivery.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Ship dates? You realize there's no prototype yet, right?


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## EVSource Mikey (Apr 24, 2012)

They have been testing the PulsaR for awhile, it's well past the prototyping stage.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I'm referring to the prototype Jark R was to receive for EVTV testing.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

EVSource and Netgain sites still say "shipping in December." Maybe they meant December 2013?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

While I respect the difficulty of what they are trying to engineer in the time-line that they had stated, they should be putting out some more information, some test results, and an updated timeframe so we can plan. And part of me thinks that they are going for perfection with the charger specs (unless they are trying to use the Tesla Supercharger or CHAdeMO), which is a good goal and will future proof things...but I would prefer the 1000A model over the DC fast charger at this time.  (although to be honest, 500A will be fine with the driving I do here)

It is winter now, so not much is happening in my garage right now, but I would really like to be completed with my project by July 4th.

One big thing I am working on is trying to figure out the gauges I am going to use, and does this PulsaR thing have the ability to output the information I need to an Android/iPad tablet like Jack said? What inputs and outputs will this have? Will it be able to monitor the remaining Ah in the battery pack? It will be able to show how many amps are being used and the pack voltage. Can it monitor the pack temperature too (it should to prevent charging a frozen pack or an extremely hot one.)? Would it be cool to see on your dash how much power you are getting when it is plugged in, with modern graphics? Actual range in miles/km remaining? What your current Wh/miles is for the past mile?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

So, we are now 2/3rd's of the way through May. Has anybody received one of these yet? Is there anymore information about them? What is the hold-up?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Caps18 said:


> So, we are now 2/3rd's of the way through May. Has anybody received one of these yet? Is there anymore information about them? What is the hold-up?


I think it's probably the fact that the j1772 fast chargers use plc rather than canbus, but i could be wrong.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Over Engineering. Trying to put too much stuff in a single package and have it all work harmoniously together.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Over Engineering. Trying to put too much stuff in a single package and have it all work harmoniously together.


I'll be honest, I think they know a lot more about putting it all together right than I do, that is why I would like to buy this controller/charger.

But looking at my work schedule, July, September and October are gone, so I'm not sure what I am going to be able to get done in June and August. And since my birthday is in December, I can just register it then for 2014. But they need to get it done by Halloween.  If they make it so I just have to hook up a few wires, mount the motor to the transmission, hook up some power steering and power brake pumps, and add a J1772 socket that would be ideal.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Making it a controller too I think is too much. I agree with Jack that there may be too much going into the engineering of this thing which has kept it from production. It was initially meant to be a charger but could be used as a basic controller but the guys are focusing on the controller part.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

It'd be nice to have all that in one box, but as controllers go the Solitons are hard to beat.

I was looking at this just for the charger/DC-DC version (since my system is AC) but it's pretty big just for that. I ended up committing to the emotorwerks charger and evsource DC-DC, just to keep the forward momentum on the project. No regrets.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Making it a controller too I think is too much. I agree with Jack that there may be too much going into the engineering of this thing which has kept it from production. It was initially meant to be a charger but could be used as a basic controller but the guys are focusing on the controller part.


I don't know any details of what they are trying to do, but I would think that since stores sell both chargers and controllers, that it would be possible to connect and put both of them into one box. And add in all of the fuses, disconnects, or whatever other little detail parts into the box.

It would be nice if they were working on a way to monitor battery voltage, Amp Hours, mileage range estimate, speedometer, etc... that could be displayed on a mini-tablet computer. Hint, hint.


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## EVSource Mikey (Apr 24, 2012)

Caps18 said:


> It would be nice if they were working on a way to monitor battery voltage, Amp Hours, mileage range estimate, speedometer, etc... that could be displayed on a mini-tablet computer. Hint, hint.


The PulsaR is designed to work with the Torque App for android devices. In tandem with the Orion BMS (which also works with Torque), everything should be readily available.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Is it going to have a Pulsar/EV plug-in for the Torque app then? that would be cool. I wonder if they make something that will turn on the tablet with the switched 12V in the ignition?

Speaking of ignition, I think it would be cool if the controller had in it the capability to do push button start with the key still in your pocket. There probably are some patent issues since the big companies are doing it, but it might be something cool to look into I think.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

So, it's been a year since EVCON 2012 where it was announced...Their website has been updated once again to 'Summer 2013'...

Where they at EVCON 2013? Do they have any beta tests or samples for pro converters to try out?

I've kind of switched to choosing AC at this point, but still, the concept of having all of the components of a EV car all professionally mated up, so all you have to do is add a few wires is appealing to me.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

At this point the PulsR is a dead horse.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

We didn't have Netgain, Evnetics, RebirthAuto, or RechargeCar at EVCCON 2013 this year. We did have three folks at HPEVS and I they did an excellent job of representing their product at the show, including having their programmer available for those who wanted to tweak their Curtis controller settings. My understanding is also that the PulsaR is not going to happen since it uses the motor as an inductor and a number of people not too happy with the idea of a traction motor receiving power while it is parked and the alternative is having a large inductor that doesn't fit in the PulsaR box to get the power ratings being promised.


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