# need help fixing charging problem



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

If lead acid batteries are stored for more than a few days in a discharged state they are pretty much unrecoverable. Put a volt meter on each battery and if you don't have something close to 8 volts on each one then they will not take a charge. Since you are only seeing 22 volts that means your batteries are probably shot. I don't know anything about that charger but it probably is thinking that there is no battery connected because the voltage is so low. A depleted pack the size you indicate should still have a resting voltage of 120 volts.

Best Wishes!


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

scottd2014 said:


> First on my list is that the zivan ng3 is giving the "battery presence" alarm and will not charge the pack.
> 
> Do the batteries need to be charged to a certain level before the zivan will work? I checked the contacts at the charger output cable (connected to the battery pack) and am only seeing about 22v.


The 144V NG3 can't read voltages below about 110V. If the voltage is below that, I would assume that the charger thinks the battery is not connected.

I would also agree that the pack is probably never again going to charge successfully.


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## scottd2014 (May 9, 2014)

Thanks for the help! I guess I should start looking into replacement battery packs.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

scottd2014 said:


> Thanks for the help! I guess I should start looking into replacement battery packs.


Certainly take a look at Lithiums. The initial cost is higher, but the life-time cost is lower (more cycles, if they don't get damaged). The cost is not as much higher as you might initially think because you don't need the same Ah rating (or you'll get more range with the same Ah rating).

The obvious advantage is a massive weight loss. In a Porsche 914 I would expect that the difference would be very advantageous.


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## scottd2014 (May 9, 2014)

The current batteries are 18qty US battery 8v with a 183ah rating. I am seeing about $160-180 per battery to replace (around 3300 for 18). Based on my initial research into lithium I think that they are totally out of my price range for now (anywhere from 7k-21k for types with 100ah ratings). are these accurate numbers, by the way?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yup and in two years or sooner you will be spending another $3300. Then two more years another $3300. How expensive is that after a few years? And your range will total suck and as the batteries age they get worse and worse power and range. We don't say look at lithium lightly. We all struggle with the up front price. 

Pete


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

scottd2014 said:


> The current batteries are 18qty US battery 8v with a 183ah rating. I am seeing about $160-180 per battery to replace (around 3300 for 18). Based on my initial research into lithium I think that they are totally out of my price range for now (anywhere from 7k-21k for types with 100ah ratings). are these accurate numbers, by the way?


Sound somewhat high. Should be less than $1.50/Ah, so max $150 for a 100Ah cell. You need 45, so just under $7K. 

You should be able to get them for less (but don't forget shipping, busbars, etc.) Shipping can be expensive because the batteries are considered hazardous in some way.

There must be some Forum advertisers/supporters (the bar on the right side) who can help you.

Just as an example:

Electric Car Parts Company http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/ has HiPowers for $117 $5300 + shipping.

They also have a whole pack (144V) of Calb's 100Ah on eBay for a little over $7K shipped.

Calb seem to be the most highly regarded, but I'd take HiPowers over Lead any day.

So twice the price, or a little more for something like 10x the cycles (and a car that drives much better).


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

I'd recommend lithium too, my 144v/60ah pack cost ~4k (winston style; after shipping). But before even shopping, you might want to consider how you'd mount different batteries into the existing boxes. What alterations will be needed if any, and if you can do that yourself or what the cost will be to hire someone to tweak.
-josh


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

And what you'll do with all the extra space?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

green caveman said:


> And what you'll do with all the extra space?


A Picnic Basket for a day at the park or car show.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Just make sure to check that the charger can handle charging Lithium batteries. I would guess it can.

Is top speed and a little more range the only reason to go up to 144V? I would think it would be a little easier to stay at 120V and not have to worry about replacing parts that can't handle the extra voltage (if there are any).


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Caps18 said:


> Just make sure to check that the charger can handle charging Lithium batteries. I would guess it can.
> 
> Is top speed and a little more range the only reason to go up to 144V? I would think it would be a little easier to stay at 120V and not have to worry about replacing parts that can't handle the extra voltage (if there are any).


I think that the pack is already at 144V (18*8). Whether 120V would be sufficient is a valid, but different, question.

Charger is an Zivan NG3. Zivan will reprogram it for a fee ($80?). There's a thread here where Dave made an awesome little board that lets the NG3 do anything you want it to:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...hargers-cant-current-limit-lithium-64827.html

I don't know if there's enough interest to build more of the boards, but they do seem to get the job done.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

If the parts on your car can handle charging 120 volts worth of flooded lead acid batteries then they should be good for at least 42 LiFePO4 cells. Still, look at the parts as some may not like the extended time over 130 volts.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The second post said 120v, and I didn't do the math. Oops.

But, different voltages is another one of those things that isn't too well documented for how it will change the performance of the vehicle. Along with different weights between battery types...


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

onegreenev; We don't say look at lithium lightly. We all struggle with the up front price.
Pete :)[/QUOTE said:


> I ended up paying upfront for everything but the batteries ... Technically in 3 years of use the cells will have paid for themselves  ... Especially dince electricity costs me 0$  lol


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

Jack seems to be making a good offer for the cells. I'm not currently looking for any, but from the specs. they seem to be similar to, say, Winston/Thundersky with a 3C continuous and 5C 10s rating. My recollection is that the CALBs have a slightly higher C-rating than that, but they also have a significantly higher price tag. 500A @144V is a fair amount of power...


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

crackerjackz said:


> I ended up paying upfront for everything but the batteries ... Technically in 3 years of use the cells will have paid for themselves  ... Especially dince electricity costs me 0$  lol


What size is your solar array? I currently have a 7.2kW system installed. 6kW worth in the garage. 

Many do however struggle for that up front cost. It is a whopping lot of money and I do not condone buying them with your credit card. If you can't buy them cash up front then your not yet ready to buy. Don't ever go into debt to buy your EV stuff. EVER.


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## green caveman (Oct 2, 2009)

onegreenev said:


> What size is your solar array? I currently have a 7.2kW system installed. 6kW worth in the garage.
> 
> Many do however struggle for that up front cost. It is a whopping lot of money and I do not condone buying them with your credit card. If you can't buy them cash up front then your not yet ready to buy. Don't ever go into debt to buy your EV stuff. EVER.


I would usually say that's true of any car. Cars are generally a lousy investment.

There may be an exception for an efficient commuter. It's worth borrowing for a Leaf or a Hybrid, or something else that gets high MPG if you drive enough miles a year that the savings pay for the loan. (No I'm not doing the math, so I may be wrong. And yes, you'd have to drive A LOT of miles).


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

And how long does the new Harley take to recoup the cost? How about the classic car that was bought? Well, some classics do increase in value, but you aren't going to drive it in the rain, to work, or to the hardware store...

I still haven't spent as much money as a new 2014 truck would cost, and that includes 8 solar panels on my roof to help power it.


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