# Ford and Webato unveil all electric Mustang at SEMA 2019



## EVmattyP (May 12, 2019)

I didn't know porn was allowed here?!?!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Various online articles (including that one) list a dual-core Phi-Power motor, which would presumably a stack of two Ph382 motors... which seems like a strange choice for a conversion by a company which offers BorgWarner HVH motors (AMR version), especially since Webasto's E-Mobility product line (which is just heating-related spinoffs of their main line of diesel heaters, plus batteries and charging stations) doesn't include Phi-Power products or any brand of motor.

The Webasto battery product is built in Germany with Samsung SDI cells. I wonder if this car is built with a Webasto battery?

Overall, the project is like the Camaro eCOPO, promoting the brand with a electric conversion having nothing to do with any design intended for production; they're even both using 800 volt systems.
_GM_: eCOPO Camaro Race Car Concept Electrifies Drag Racing
_DIYElectricCar_: eCOPO Camaro: Factory conversion


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> Various online articles (including that one) list a dual-core Phi-Power motor, which would presumably a stack of two Ph382 motors... which seems like a strange choice for a conversion by a company which offers BorgWarner HVH motors (AMR version), especially since Webasto's E-Mobility product line (which is just heating-related spinoffs of their main line of diesel heaters, plus batteries and charging stations) doesn't include Phi-Power products or any brand of motor.
> 
> The Webasto battery product is built in Germany with Samsung SDI cells. I wonder if this car is built with a Webasto battery?
> 
> ...


As anyone who has tried to obtain AMR motors over the last several years can attest to, they were out of production for a few years (we actually just received our first Cascadia branded motors about a week ago). So we went with the Phi-Power motor, which so far is working great.

This car did not use the Webasto battery; we did a custom EVDrive battery for it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Thanks for the info. 



Hollie Maea said:


> As anyone who has tried to obtain AMR motors over the last several years can attest to, they were out of production for a few years (we actually just received our first Cascadia branded motors about a week ago).


That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is a website offering a series of motors which have not been available for years. And people wonder why I am sceptical about stuff offered online...



Hollie Maea said:


> This car did not use the Webasto battery; we did a custom EVDrive battery for it.


So the vehicle which Webasto had built to promote their line of EV components actually has none of their EV components in it. That's either hilarious, or a very sad commentary on the stupidity of our marketing-driven world.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is a website offering a series of motors which have not been available for years.


The AMR motors? Like I said, they are now available again which is why we have them on our website.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> The AMR motors? Like I said, they are now available again which is why we have them on our website.


I'm confused. If the first of these motors were received a few weeks ago, and were not available for the build which was announced yesterday, why were they on the EV Drive website in April, and in a random archived versions that I checked from 2016, 2017, and 2018? I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were always on the EV Drive website (with a 6-8 week delivery time quoted), even when they were not available because they were not even in production. Sorry if I misunderstood something.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> So the vehicle which Webasto had built to promote their line of EV components actually has none of their EV components in it. That's either hilarious, or a very sad commentary on the stupidity of our marketing-driven world.



I probably wouldn't be so harsh. It was their idea and they paid for it, and they do have legitimate EV tech that they are using this to get visibility for. It seems like they are putting real effort into getting into the EV space, even if their production batteries might not be capable of powering a 900 hp supercar.

And they will be using this as a testbed for some of their production products.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> I'm confused. If the first of these motors were received a few weeks ago, and were not available for the build which was announced yesterday, why were they on the EV Drive website in April, and in a random archived versions that I checked from 2016, 2017, and 2018? I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were always on the EV Drive website (with a 6-8 week delivery time quoted), even when they were not available because they were not even n production. Sorry if I misunderstood something.


It's a long story that I'm not going to share. Suffice it to say that both of our companies have gone through changes in the past 4 years, and that plans don't always stay constant during such events.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Hollie Maea

Maybe you can answer this

Why in the name of the wee hairy one is this project using a six speed gearbox?????


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Hi Hollie Maea
> 
> Maybe you can answer this
> 
> Why in the name of the wee hairy one is this project using a six speed gearbox?????


Here is an answer I gave on another forum, cause a lot of people are asking just that 


We kept the manual transmission for three reasons:

1. The width of the torque band in a typical AC motor is worth about three gears in an ICE. So, you can definitely get away with just one gear. But it's a compromise--even for Tesla, which has a "low" top speed for how much power it has. We want to be able to hit 200mph with this car and you couldn't do that with a single speed without giving up too much acceleration. Two gears is about perfect for an EV, but there aren't any decent 2 speed gearboxes on the market and they'd be hard to develop.

2. A lot of people enjoy going through the gears. An electric is already a pretty out there concept for the typical Mustang fan, and having gears helps with that. I just got back from SEMA, where the car was revealed, and I got that feedback a LOT.

3. Coming up with a single gear reduction is actually a lot harder than using an existing 6 speed. The differential by itself is not enough reduction, so you need something more. And the existing offerings, such as the Borg Warner eGearDrive, can't handle 1000 ft-lbs of torque.






I will add that, although it has six speeds, you'll never use them all. First is completely unusable. Second is good for converting tires to smoke. Third fourth and fifth are all a lot of fun. I don't know for certain yet, but I doubt sixth will ever be used...I think you would run out of power before you ran out of RPM in 5th. Like I said, if there were a good 2 speed we'd use it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> I probably wouldn't be so harsh. It was their idea and they paid for it, and they do have legitimate EV tech that they are using this to get visibility for. It seems like they are putting real effort into getting into the EV space, even if their production batteries might not be capable of powering a 900 hp supercar.


I respect that position, and understand the commercial need to present it, but seriously... Webasto could have stuck their name on a stock Tesla and shown that - it would have had as much relevance to their products and capabilities, since they used none of their products or capabilities on this vehicle.



Hollie Maea said:


> And they will be using this as a testbed for some of their production products.


Companies routinely use other companies' products for testing. For an example, GM used a Porsche PDK transaxle in a test mule for the C8 Corvette, because they didn't have their own of the right format and their supplier hadn't built one for them yet. To me, that's something you do behind the scenes, not something that you present to the public as your own work.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> I respect that position, and understand the commercial need to present it, but seriously... Webasto could have stuck their name on a stock Tesla and shown that - it would have had as much relevance to their products and capabilities, since they used none of their products or capabilities on this vehicle.


Yeah, I've kinda gotten used to the way these things go. We usually get even less credit and a lot of the time the companies will explicitly say "We built this".

There was one company for which we did the entire drive system, they didn't finish their part, they got up on a stage and told everyone that they had built a fully functional vehicle, and used that to raise 10 billion dollars.

So this was way better than that.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Manual transmission*



Hollie Maea said:


> We kept the manual transmission for three reasons:
> 
> 1. The width of the torque band in a typical AC motor is worth about three gears in an ICE. So, you can definitely get away with just one gear. But it's a compromise--even for Tesla, which has a "low" top speed for how much power it has. We want to be able to hit 200mph with this car and you couldn't do that with a single speed without giving up too much acceleration. Two gears is about perfect for an EV, but there aren't any decent 2 speed gearboxes on the market and they'd be hard to develop.


This makes complete sense to me, although I would say "excessively expensive to develop for a single show car" rather than "hard to develop". It made sense to Tesla, who attempted (unsuccessfully for some reason) to use a 2-speed in their original Roadster. It makes sense to Rimac and Porsche, who put 2-speed transmissions (one per motor) in the rear (only) of the Concept 1 and Taycan. It makes sense to the whole industry, which is why most companies offering transmissions to OEMs for electric applications offer a 2-speed variant... to OEMs in quantity.



Hollie Maea said:


> 2. A lot of people enjoy going through the gears. An electric is already a pretty out there concept for the typical Mustang fan, and having gears helps with that. I just got back from SEMA, where the car was revealed, and I got that feedback a LOT.


Again, as a driving and technology enthusiast this makes sense to me. It made sense to Brammo (later part of the Victory division of Polaris, now abandoned) which chose a traditional multi-speed transmission for their Empulse motorcycle.

Just as a transmission with a lot of gear ratios has always been used to allow the driver to get the best possible performance out of a limited engine, a multi-speed transmission could make an otherwise margin EV conversion (perhaps with a motor limited in range by available battery voltage) more capable, and more fun to drive.



Hollie Maea said:


> 3. Coming up with a single gear reduction is actually a lot harder than using an existing 6 speed. The differential by itself is not enough reduction, so you need something more. And the existing offerings, such as the Borg Warner eGearDrive, can't handle 1000 ft-lbs of torque.


Just like point 1, this is all about availability. A single-speed is easy to build, if you build gearboxes. If you don't build gearboxes, any gearbox is hard to build.

Commercial electric trucks and buses have been built with single-speed reduction boxes. A box from one of them might work, but it would be heavy and not suited to the transmission tunnel, so it's easier to just use the stock transmission (or a high-torque version of it).

The obvious solution is the ev-TorqueBox from Torque Trends. It is rated for 1250 lb-ft, and intended for this application (motor and reduction box replacing longitudinally mounted engine and transmission... in a Ford). On the other hand, on a commercial basis it makes sense to use the same components as in your own (Ford in this case) products where you can, and not to use another aftermarket supplier's stuff unless they pay enough to make sharing the publicity worthwhile.



Hollie Maea said:


> I will add that, although it has six speeds, you'll never use them all. First is completely unusable. Second is good for converting tires to smoke. Third fourth and fifth are all a lot of fun. I don't know for certain yet, but I doubt sixth will ever be used...I think you would run out of power before you ran out of RPM in 5th. Like I said, if there were a good 2 speed we'd use it.


That would be a reason to use an aftermarket gear set, if the vehicle were really intended to be driven. Maybe that can be part of the car's further development; while it's a little puzzling that the Getrag MT82 was used instead of the Tremec TR-3160 (used in the most powerful production Mustangs), there should be alternate ratios available for both. I don't think that either is rated for anything close to 1,000 lb-ft in stock form, so some racing bits might be appropriate.


But this still leaves one question about the EV conversion:
Is the motor controlled to *rev-match during shifts*? Even gasoline engine economy cars do this now (e.g. Toyota Corolla's iMT feature, although only on downshifts), so it's an obvious feature for an inherently computer-controlled electric motor. With no need to slip a clutch to start from a standstill, with appropriate motor speed management in shifting the clutch could be safely eliminated.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> Yeah, I've kinda gotten used to the way these things go. We usually get even less credit and a lot of the time the companies will explicitly say "We built this".
> 
> There was one company for which we did the entire drive system, they didn't finish their part, they got up on a stage and told everyone that they had built a fully functional vehicle, and used that to raise 10 billion dollars.
> 
> So this was way better than that.


 Yes, much better than that wannabe truck manufacturer!


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

I definitely saw a pretty negative reaction from some other places on the web regarding the manual trans - I think a lot of that reaction was due to the fact that the new GT-500 isn't getting the manual trans coupled with the naivety of exactly what was mentioned here. The electric Mustang is spectacular by the way, excellent work!

Soon I will be converting my 97 F150 that I drove in highschool, I will be relying on the manual gearbox to make better use of limited RPM range of a brushed DC motor with 100V battery pack (single Tesla model 3 25S module) - much much easier to simply use what is there and available!


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

OK, that's fast.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dain254 said:


> I definitely saw a pretty negative reaction from some other places on the web regarding the manual trans...


I read the comments on this essentially random article:
Ford built an electric Mustang with a manual transmission. And we’re mad.
The comments mostly illustrate how technically clueless most automotive enthusiasts are.  They do point out that the clutch is pointless, and it would be with rev-matching motor control to enable shifts.

Even the author of this mostly rational article says "Electric vehicles have single-speed gearboxes. There is really no logical reason to have a manual gearbox", then in the next paragraph mentions the Porsche Taycan, which has a two-speed transmission.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Another thread (Troubleshooting my first EV - Ford Ranger conversion) mentioned a "Lenco - IEDrives 2 speed Transmission". I don't see the Lenco connection (perhaps that was an old model unit actually based on a Lenco), but IEdrives does indeed build transmissions specifically for EVs. Their descriptions include this:


> This transmission is specifically designed to be integrated with and controlled by a VCU (vehicle control unit). This AMT is not intended to be manually shifted or manually commanded to shift without the aid of a VCU.


They don't use a clutch (input shafts are female splined to directly mate with male splined motor shafts), and appear to use the VCU to coordinate the motor and the transmission shift actuators. This wouldn't be the same as a manual, since there is no mechanical shift linkage to connect to a manual shifter. Their target market is medium-duty to heavy trucks, not sports cars, but the technology for rational multi-speed transmissions for electric cars is not a problem... just getting one suitable unit for a project is.


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## dain254 (Oct 8, 2015)

In the spirit of having fun with a vehicle, having the ability to pop the clutch to break the tires loose is a much more controllable way of getting the tail out! Depending on setup there would still be a fair bit of inertia to a motor that would make this possible. Given the choice between a single speed EV or a 2-3 speed with a clutch I would absolutely chose the latter for that additional fun factor!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

dain254 said:


> In the spirit of having fun with a vehicle, having the ability to pop the clutch to break the tires loose is a much more controllable way of getting the tail out! Depending on setup there would still be a fair bit of inertia to a motor that would make this possible. Given the choice between a single speed EV or a 2-3 speed with a clutch I would absolutely chose the latter for that additional fun factor!


I suppose, but in a low enough gear (even a single-speed, depending on motor) the tires will spin - in a much more controllable way - by just applying more accelerator pedal.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

dain254 said:


> In the spirit of having fun with a vehicle, having the ability to pop the clutch to break the tires loose is a much more controllable way of getting the tail out! Depending on setup there would still be a fair bit of inertia to a motor that would make this possible. Given the choice between a single speed EV or a 2-3 speed with a clutch I would absolutely chose the latter for that additional fun factor!


I have a single speed - no clutch - and I can pop the rear tyres loose just by pressing the loud pedal 

A modern EV will have software to PREVENT this - but my DC forklift motor and basic controller is too primitive


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## SWF (Nov 23, 2007)

Hollie Maea said:


> Here is an answer I gave on another forum, cause a lot of people are asking just that
> 
> 
> We kept the manual transmission for three reasons:
> ...



Great job on the Mustang conversion!

I get the same questions when I take my converted Mustang to car shows, and there were a lot of these types of comments/questions when it won the Ford Canada #sweeteststang contest. Mine has a 5-speed T5 transmission, upgraded to handle the torque. I spend time walking through the same technical reasons for the transmission as you did above, but some people just like the "cool" factor of being able to shift gears. I think much of this is just nostalgia for old manual shift cars, but even my 20 year old son thinks that manual transmissions in sports cars are cool.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

One more round of the manual transmission discussion, courtesy of Road&Track:
Here's What It's Like to Drive an Electric Car with a Manual Transmission
_We got behind the wheel of an electric-swapped 1967 Porsche 912 with a five-speed manual to give it a try._

The Porsche in question is a very typical conversion by EV West. For those who are not Porsche fans, a 912 is a four-cylinder 911.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

We are taking her to the strip today to see what she can do...


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## adamwilla (Mar 24, 2020)

Hollie Maea said:


> We are taking her to the strip today to see what she can do...


So, and what you'll say?


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

adamwilla said:


> So, and what you'll say?


No shortage of power, but we were having problems with the clutch sticking so we were not able to set any records. Had to ship it off to Michigan before we could run it again.


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## adamwilla (Mar 24, 2020)

Hollie Maea said:


> No shortage of power, but we were having problems with the clutch sticking so we were not able to set any records. Had to ship it off to Michigan before we could run it again.


so it's sad (. Good Luck


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## Telman (Dec 9, 2020)

It seems to me that the mustang should not be electric, but in terms of technical characteristics it is very powerful.


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## mattykobs (Mar 7, 2021)

Hollie Maea said:


> Here is an answer I gave on another forum, cause a lot of people are asking just that
> 
> 
> We kept the manual transmission for three reasons:
> ...


Hi Hollie! 

I'm new to this forum and I came upon this thread to see if anybody here was talking about the Mustang Lithium. I was thinking though, although you mention there aren't any good two speeds on the market, wouldn't a Powerglide or TH400 work fine? They're still used in drag cars today and can handle ludicrous amounts of power. Although they're automatic, many companies make full manual versions.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mattykobs said:


> I'm new to this forum and I came upon this thread to see if anybody here was talking about the Mustang Lithium. I was thinking though, although you mention there aren't any good two speeds on the market, wouldn't a Powerglide or TH400 work fine? They're still used in drag cars today and can handle ludicrous amounts of power. Although they're automatic, many companies make full manual versions.


Those old automatics can be converted to be used without a torque converter, but they are unnecessarily heavy, complex, and expensive.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two-speed transmissions suitable for EVs available... just not ones really suitable for a converted Mustang like this. Volvo has introduced battery-electric trucks in various sizes (including some sold by their Mack division, and the powertrain for the Rosenbauer electric fire truck), and all use a two-speed transmission developed and built by Volvo.


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## mattykobs (Mar 7, 2021)

Hollie Maea said:


> I will add that, although it has six speeds, you'll never use them all. First is completely unusable. Second is good for converting tires to smoke. Third fourth and fifth are all a lot of fun. I don't know for certain yet, but I doubt sixth will ever be used...I think you would run out of power before you ran out of RPM in 5th. Like I said, if there were a good 2 speed we'd use it.


Sorry, back to this thread again. Did you guys use the gear ratios found in the normal Mustang when you did this build?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

mattykobs said:


> Did you guys use the gear ratios found in the normal Mustang when you did this build?


As mentioned earlier, it apparently uses a Getrag MT82. Hollie Maea can provide the correct answer, but my guess is that since the ratios in it are mostly unsuitable, it likely has one of the stock ratio sets for a Mustang (there are more than one). The MT82 has a poor reputation, and the consensus seems to be that the best way to improve it is to replace it with a Tremec, which Ford does with higher-power Mustang variants. If changing ratios, it would be easier and make more sense to put in the shortest final drive (ring and pinion at the diff) rather than messing with any transmission, especially the MT82.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> As mentioned earlier, it apparently uses a Getrag MT82. Hollie Maea can provide the correct answer, but my guess is that since the ratios in it are mostly unsuitable, it likely has one of the stock ratio sets for a Mustang (there are more than one). The MT82 has a poor reputation, and the consensus seems to be that the best way to improve it is to replace it with a Tremec, which Ford does with higher-power Mustang variants. If changing ratios, it would be easier and make more sense to put in the shortest final drive (ring and pinion at the diff) rather than messing with any transmission, especially the MT82.


We got a special transmission from Ford, with billet gears. I think the ratios were the same, but it was highly specialized for high power. If I remember right they said they only make a few of them per year.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> We got a special transmission from Ford, with billet gears. I think the ratios were the same, but it was highly specialized for high power. If I remember right they said they only make a few of them per year.


That makes sense: it's not the right transmission, it's the one that they have available in a version modified for more power handling. Thanks.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> That makes sense: it's not the right transmission, it's the one that they have available in a version modified for more power handling. Thanks.


That's right. It was not specially designed for this project. If my memory is right it was typically an aftermarket part for the Ford GT, but like I said they only made a few per year. That came straight from Ford so I can only imagine how much it might have cost.


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