# the Chevy Volt is fine by me



## mechman600 (Oct 16, 2010)

At the very least, GM is heading in the right direction with the Volt. Sure, it may not have a 100 mile range like the Leaf, but for 80% of commuters, 40 miles is plenty. And the lack of range anxiety may be enough to sway the "non EV types" to go for it. But, the one big complaint about the Volt (especially on this forum) that I am getting sick of hearing is the fact that it's really not an EV, but a hybrid, just because the engine can physically drive the wheels. Oh no..what were they thinking? Answer: they were thinking about efficiency. When the batteries are depleted and you are relying on an ICE to do the work, it is usually more efficient to mechanically drive the wheels instead of charging the batteries to power a motor to drive the wheels, especially at higher speeds. When are people going to realize this? It must be a severe case of hybrid-phobia or something. Sure, they could have made a pure EV, but I believe that North America needs a stepping stone first. Maybe they will release a BEV soon enough.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

The Prius costs less then the Leaf and the Prius is a Hybrid. The Volt is a Hybrid and more expensive than the Leaf. Hows that going to work. I'd rather just go get a Prius if I wanted a hybrid because it is a proven model. I't's not that its Hybrid Phobia but the fact that they have been calling it an ALL electric DRIVE when in fact it is not. They don't have a very good track record and they DO lie. There has been no advertising of the Volt while the Leaf has been advertising and there is not any place where I can actually go drive one unless I know someone on the inside that happens to have on in their possession and hope they don't get caught allowing someone to test drive with out permission. The Volt is about as real is a donkey on a ski. The Leaf on the other hand is moving forward and allowing test drives and all that sort of stuff. It is real and pretty darn nice too. 

Gotta have a stone to step on if you intend to be a stepping stone. Leaf is the first stone this time around. GM took their stone away years ago, remember!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> ......but the fact that they have been calling it an ALL electric DRIVE when in fact it is not.


Hi gottdi,

I have been following the Volt development and never heard anyone of authority connected with the project claim this. What they have said and is fact is that the Volt can be driven "ALL electric" for a certain distance before switching to a gasoline assisted drive (read hybrid).

And this fellow seemed to like the volt. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51552 You have your opinion. If you don't like it, don't buy one.  I happen to like it, although I probably will never buy one, unless they bring out a pick-up truck version. 

major


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

More like gasoline assisted Range Extender. Nothing was stated either in the beginning about the engine actually being coupled to the drive component. Only that it was an electric car with a gas range extender. When all along its just a different implementation of a Hybrid style car. I am not overly impressed with the rollout and advertising, nor am I impressed with what it can actually do. It looks good. That is about the extent of the matter. If it were more in line price wise with an upper end Prius I'd be very serious about the Volt. As it is I am not. 

The biggest problem is that they have not been clear about any of it. More of a PR stunt to me from the history they have. 

Pete


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The biggest problem is that they have not been clear about any of it.


I don't know, Pete, who you have been listening to. They said it would run on batteries only for a distance (I heard like 40 miles----depending) and then switch to gasoline/electric. Which is what they brought out, isn't it? What is unclear? Why is it a problem? Beats me 

The hybrid architecture and details of the system were decided by their design team and presumably chosen to best accomplish their objectives. At least they are selling these vehicles instead of leasing them as they did with the EV1. So one would presume they have a greater degree of confidence that this technology is here to stay. I think it is a step in the right direction. Like I said before:

The* Volt* will make a* Potential Difference*. 

major


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

With in the past 4 months I will agree with you. However during the past year and a half or so it has really only been speculation about the drive line but on the PR posts and stuff you see all the time about what ever it has been stated that it was an all electric drive with a backup generator providing power to the motor and batteries so you have in effect a set up like the diesel electric trains. Generator power to power the more efficient electric drive motor rather than the gas engine running the whole setup. It was what was to intriguing about the whole Volt thing. Something new and revolutionary to blow the masses away. Well it's far from that. Once the cat was out of the bag I just went holy crap and basically just ditched the Volt as a prospective vehicle. Really. I was sorely disappointed. 

Did you have inside information that said from the beginning that the Volt was going to be a dual drive Hybrid and not an all electric drive? It has been stated in posts all over the internet that the car was being hailed as an electric car with gas range extender. Not an Electric/Gas drive with an on board generator for charging the batteries. 

I'd love to see a post or original posting from GM when it was announce that the Volt was truly an Electric/Gas Drive with a generator on board. They did not announce until recently that the drive component was in fact an Electric/Gas. Just a different version of a Prius.

Pete


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2010)

Actually they are not really selling them but the Dealers will be at inflated prices. The Leaf on the other hand will not be sold at inflated prices from what the manufacturer intended. Kudos for the Leaf and only if you know someone on the inside will you even have a slightest chance to get a Volt at an already inflated price. Thank you much I will stick with the Leaf or Prius of for that matter the Ford Focus Hybrid.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The problem is they have purposly muddied the waters by calling it an EV. It's not an EV, it's a hybrid. They even tried to create the new REEV moniker, Range Extended Electric Vehicle, which is simply a PHEV. PHEV's are great, but they aren't EV's. As Jack Richard says, if I have to put gas in it it's not an EV.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2010)

> Why is it a problem? Beats me


Well it's not a super problem. It is that every one is in the mindset that it was to be an all electric drive with gas generator assist for those long distances. I fully understand building into the system a way to drive in Gas ONLY mode but when you expect one thing and get another it can be problematic for the company. I think the car if it actually does get sold will do OK just like the Ford Focus or Prius but the price will really have to come down for that to happen. Really. I just wanted to see a full electric drive with gas/generator range extender. But in reality it is not that but just another Prius. Is there in fact two electric motors on board? One Drive and one Generator? And maybe the gas engine will in an emergency or super steep grade couple in to boost the electric drive? I really see no reason to do that unless the electric drive motor is not very powerful. My take is that the electric has more torque and power for things like acceleration and hills. So why would you need an assist boost from a less efficient gas engine. I was (really ) under the impression that it was truly an all electric drive with that tiny gas generator for extra electrical boost when needed and to extend the range when the initial battery pack became low enough so you'd need that extra battery juice and power for the elecric drive. I am sure like the prius that the battery will not be allowed to go under a specific voltage before the generator turned on. 

Anyway Perception is a big thing and if it is let down at all it will hurt the manufacturer. For what it is it is way over priced. Will it work, sure. Can you drive in electric only, yes. It might just work but I think the all electric is going to take the lead. The size of the Leaf battery pack is really tiny and could be installed onto an accessory trailer to give a range extension and double the mileage or more. Granted a lithium pack is expensive but then again so is the Volt. We all know the expense of the Electric vehicles. 

Pete 

I think I will stop my ranting. I take my stand with the Leaf and you the Volt. May they both succeed.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It's not an EV, it's a hybrid.


You guys seem to have formed misconceptions about the vehicle from information which I think was not coming from GM. They from the very beginning called it an Extended Range Electric Vehicle, EREV. And that it is. If you never drive it over 30 or 40 miles inbetween charges, it is an EV running on batteries only. It gets full performance in the EV mode. Never having to start the engine to climb a hill, go fast or run the air conditioner. There is one exception as explained in an earlier post, that the engine needs to run a half tank of gas every 6 months to keep the fuel from going stale. Is that too much to ask? If you have bought the Volt, presumably you have wanted the extended range feature and won't mind using 10 gallons of gas a year to have the feature.

As to how the gasoline engine extends the range, what better method is there than what they appear to have chosen? If you need to travel 400 miles on the interstate highway at 75 miles per hour, don't you think that a direct mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels will be more efficient than a series hybrid with the extra two energy conversions?

Again, I have watched this from the beginning, read about it in Automotive Engineering Magazine and attended an SAE conference last year where several engineering managers from the Volt program spoke and fielded questions. They never called it an EV or HEV or PHEV.......Always an EREV.

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> They never called it an EV or HEV or PHEV.......Always an EREV.
> 
> major





> First, the background. From the moment General Motors unveiled the Chevrolet Volt concept at the Detroit auto show three years ago, it has insisted the Volt is an EV.


http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/the-chevrolet-volt-isnt-a-true-ev/



> _We at Automotive News have persisted in calling the Volt a "plug-in hybrid." Our authority has been SAE's definition of a hybrid as a vehicle with two propulsion power sources. Interestingly, GM first referred to the Volt as a "series hybrid." That's one in which the internal combustion engine feeds power to the electric system, as opposed to a "parallel hybrid," in which the two systems run the wheels.
> 
> But GM dropped "series hybrid"... and came up with a new pitch: The Volt is an EV because the gasoline engine doesn't drive the wheels._


http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/28/automotive-news-volts-benefits-outweigh-ev-purity-do-you-ag/
GM has marketed the Volt as an EV, a REEV, and an EREV. It's actually a PHEV, plain and simple, no need for a new misleading acronym, and no reason to call it an EV. It's a hybrid. Since most if it's range is actually driven from the ICE you could call it an Assisted ICE vehicle, or AICE


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Since most if it's range is actually driven from the ICE you could call it an Assisted ICE vehicle, or AICE


From your first link: 


> “For the first 25 to 50 miles of driving, the Volt is a full-performance electric vehicle from zero to 100 mph,” Peterson said.


 And Peterson is a GM guy. All the rest of that is reporter talk.

So what? It is what it is. And GM has always called it an EREV from everything I heard. Again so what? A rose is a rose......

major


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. This is the best explanation I've seen on how it works:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/12/chevrolet-volt-electric-drive-propulsion-system-unveiled/

One of the reasons for my interest in EV is the reduced mechanical complexity vs ICE. The Volt has all the complexity - and risk of failure - of an ICE plus an electric drive system, a separate hybrid motor/generator and a clutch system from hell. Count me out and far away from the Volt.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> From your first link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Prius can drive electric only for a short time as well, but it's not an electric vehicle. As mentioned, the complexity of a hybrid is quite different from that of a pure EV. GM has played fast and loose with terminology from the beginning, that's what I object to. A fuel cell vehicle has an electric motor and batteries, but you wouldn't call it an EV. A rose is a rose, but don't call a tulip a rose, because it's not.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The Prius can drive electric only for a short time as well, but it's not an electric vehicle. As mentioned, the complexity of a hybrid is quite different from that of a pure EV. GM has played fast and loose with terminology from the beginning, that's what I object to. A fuel cell vehicle has an electric motor and batteries, but you wouldn't call it an EV. A rose is a rose, but don't call a tulip a rose, because it's not.


If the Prius is driving without the engine running it is driving as an EV. And fuel cell vehicles are EVs. Just not BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles). And to me, FWIW, the Volt has always been an HEV because it can use two sources of energy storage on board. However, it can operate as an EV on the battery alone.

I like the article JRoque posted. It shows how it operates. Cool  What's wrong with that. He says it's too complex. About the same as a Prius, or the GM 2-mode hybrids. Big deal. GM validates it and stands behind it. Strange nobody is worried about 10 years on the battery 

major


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> And to me, FWIW, the Volt has always been an HEV because it can use two sources of energy storage on board.


Exactly, a hybrid electric vehicle, emphasis on hybrid. Simply Hybrid vehicle is probably a more accurate term since it's just as much a Hybrid ICE as a Hybrid EV. As I stated, I have no problem with the technology, (though I wouldn't buy one), just the marketing of it. I guess we've just read different articles about it.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Exactly, a hybrid electric vehicle, emphasis on hybrid. Simply Hybrid vehicle is probably a more accurate term since it's just as much a Hybrid ICE as a Hybrid EV. As I stated, I have no problem with the technology, (though I wouldn't buy one), just the marketing of it. I guess we've just read different articles about it.


Yes, we can call the Volt whatever we want. My point was that GM calls it an EREV. 


major said:


> And GM has always called it an EREV from everything I heard.


 So Rose, Tulip, Dandelion, whatever


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

The main issue I have with the Volt is that it has a really complicated planetary gearset that connects the engine to the drive wheels. I like pure EVs because of their inherent simplicity. I have never liked hybrids just because of the fact that they are way to complicated.


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Same with me. I will never purchase an Hybrid because of the combined systems.

I have hard time to keep up with my repairs on my used ICE car

Imagine Hybrids... The garage man saying you need a new drive battery. He tells you that he updated your software in the Controller as well as I they had to replace your gaz lines that were leaking. Oh and the timming belt needs to be changed soon. Even if it's hybrid, both technoligies will age with the vehicules. No matter what, both systems will need maintenance.

Did I say I will never purchase an Hybrid?


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Volt is not for me... variety of reasons.

For those who aren't going to plug it in ... they might as well save money and just get a Prius ... they will get better vehicle efficiency.

For those who will plug it in ... it at least has the potential to be better than a straight gasoline car ... and offers something for those with range anxiety ... in a similar way to how the PHEV Prius does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Remember the first design shape for the Volt? ... Remember when they put it in a wind tunnel? ... it did horrible ... I am glad they went back and tweaked some things to prove it ... but that first result tells me allot about the intent ... with modern day computer simulations , small scale model testing, etc ... the engineers had to have known from the beginning that the original design was not very aerodynamic ... long before ever making the prototype ... long before anyone in the public saw it ... for GM to have moved it ahead anyway , tells me how little they actually cared about vehicle efficiency ... I'm glad they did go back and improve it ... but that seems to be more because of the bad press reaction there PR Volt project got when the results of the aerodynamic testing got out.

GM is charging $40,280 for the Volt ... while there are nice incentives out there ... that is what GM is charging ... to me when I look at the Volt ... and I look at a $40,000+ price tag ... and the reports I have been reading that several dealers will be raising the price even more ... and I haven't seen GM make any statements to seriously discourage the dealer mark ups ... I look at it ... and I wonder.

Then I see competition ... Nissan has given a very different message to dealerships about the price of the Leaf... which I think is a much more positive indicator about the companies intentions.

For those who want to be gas free ... to replace the pump with the plug ... the Volt is not for you ... it can only reduce ... but forces you to still burn ~10 or more gallons per year as a minimum... and does not enjoy the robustness or simplicity of a pure BEV.

Sense the Leaf is less money ... and has more BEV range ... anyone who intends to plug in regularly ... I recommend honestly asking yourself and determining how often you would actually have any use for the gasoline range extending feature of the Volt? ... there is a break even point ... where if used often enough it becomes worth having ... and if not used often enough it is not worth having... each person has different situations ... but I would recommend and honest look at that first before you put down the extra cash on something you may or may not ever use.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

My last two bits ... The U.S. Government Literally Owns GM ... If you like Communism vote with your dollar ... buy ( Government Motors ) GM vehicles...


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

The only big problem with the Volt as far as I'm concerned is the cost. That thing would give anyone sticker shock. They could damn near make and sell a 200 mile EV for that, based on what the leaf costs.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

jeremyjs said:


> The only big problem with the Volt as far as I'm concerned is the cost. That thing would give anyone sticker shock. They could damn near make and sell a 200 mile EV for that, based on what the leaf costs.


Agreed, if you look at how much some of us will eventually spend on our evs, even if we bought a newer car we would not have spent 40 thousand dollars.


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## Kyran64 (Dec 25, 2010)

<rant>
Personally...I've been unimpressed with ANY of the vehicles that have been put into production thus far. ..I'm a tough crowd, I realize. I have unreasonably high expectations and requirements, I realize...none of which have been met by anyone so far and with no justifiable excuse (i feel) for the failure. From what little I do know thus far, however...the Volt might actually be a closer step to the right idea. 

Before anyone starts to flame me, I'd like to specify that almost everythign I say is intended as a generality and NOT meant to be an all-inclusive statement...just food for thought.

Mm....food.......Here's food for thought that nobody has discussed in this thread yet:
Back before hybrids were even commonly produced, back when they were 'mostly' theoretical constructs, one of the MAIN proposed reasons for designing or driving a hybrid was NOT increased fuel efficiency (though that's certainly a useful by-product). The main idea I kept stumbling across in essays and discussions of "what if" was to clean up the air in congested areas and dirty cities. A driver could commute in on the roads and kill their ICE as they approached town. Drive around all day on a battery charge, and commute home with the ICE as needed. Not a zero emissions vehicle, to be sure. But it IS for all intents and purposes a zero emissions vehicle "in town"...where it arguably matters the most. Fuel efficiency and emissions aren't the only things to keep in mind. Hybrids open up the world of "emissions distribution"...or, at least, SHOULD...and have thus far FAILED to even explore that. 

There are a great, great many reasons to shoot down the Volt, the complexity of design, the cost, the marketting, the lack of being a true EV...

Sure, we all have our own priorities and pet peeves and stringent criteria that aren't being met...but let's face it. Industry sucks. People are building more efficient (not necessarily better quality, but MORE EFFICIENT) constructs in their garages. Every production vehicle that pushes a slightly different idea, regardless of it's downsides, is arguably a move in the right direction. You don't like the Volt, don't buy it (I don't plan to either). Even isn't the grail that we're looking for...heck, even if it's an ultimate failure, it's still an improvement in an as of yet mostly ignored arena. 

Then..of course...there are the arguments that if we started seeing too many EVs on the road at one time, the power grid would have issues keeping up, especially during peak hours...blah, blah blah...I'm screaming right alongside everyone who thinks we should already be running marathons, but people have been dumb, which has allowed industry to keep being dumb...babysteps, while ungratifying...are at least being taken
</rant>


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I see the Volt as an expensive complicated "solution" to a problem that doesn't really exist: Range Anxiety. Most households have more than one vehicle, and most people drive less than 40 miles a day, so a 100 mile or so EV could go a long way to replacing a large part of our vehicle fleet. Even the most aggressive possible adoption of EV's would take many years to roll out and by that time longer range EV's will be possible and the fast charging infrastructure will be more widespread.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I see the Volt as an expensive complicated "solution" to a problem that doesn't really exist: Range Anxiety. Most households have more than one vehicle, and most people drive less than 40 miles a day, so a 100 mile or so EV could go a long way to replacing a large part of our vehicle fleet. Even the most aggressive possible adoption of EV's would take many years to roll out and by that time longer range EV's will be possible and the fast charging infrastructure will be more widespread.


I agree completely. That is the main reason I don't like EVs. I couldn't have stated it better myself.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I see the Volt as an expensive complicated "solution" to a problem that doesn't really exist: Range Anxiety.


+1
Same with the opportunity charging station concepts.
they wont be necessary, big waste of design money right now.

Still say the Volt was designed to fail to make EV's look unfeasable or undoable or unaffordable


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> +1
> Same with the opportunity charging station concepts.
> they wont be necessary, big waste of design money right now.
> 
> Still say the Volt was designed to fail to make EV's look unfeasable or undoable or unaffordable


I think you are right, but this time it isn't only GM with the EV1. This time there are plenty of cars out there to prove them wrong. Tesla is coming out with a model S that will cost about 50 thousand dollars, looks like an Austin Martin and has a 300 mile range while running 0 to 60 in 5 seconds or so.
GM could really be screwing themselves with this tactic. They always did have a tendency to be late to the game.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

...nevermind


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't agree....completely......I think electrics are being sold wrong. People need to be made aware of how long an EV will last because of its inherent simplicity. Only one moving part. Also, if more people where educated on how many people actually do drive more than 100 miles a day, added to the fact that you start out every day with what basically amounts to a full tank of gas, more people wouldn't get range anxiety. 

I think that once electrics proliferate the market, and people see that they don't need a range of more than 100 miles in a day, the range anxiety will vanish. Part of the selling point of EVs should be that they are simplistic of design and as such will have a usable life span several times that of a traditional automobile.

As far as what people want to drive, hey its a free country, if you want to spend the money for the gasoline in an Escalade go for it. I for one will choose to save my money and instead pay a fractional amount for electricity than I do for gasoline.


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## Kyran64 (Dec 25, 2010)

Jason Lattimer said:


> I think that once electrics proliferate the market, and people see that they don't need a range of more than 100 miles in a day, the range anxiety will vanish.


There's a difference between not going more than 100 miles in a day...and not being ABLE to go more than 100 miles. As a nation, our public transportation and infrastructure getting into/out of most cities is pathetic if it exists at all. So, as a manufacturer designing an moderate to exensive vehicle that can't GO anywhere.... you find yourself looking at millions of middle/upper-middle class drivers who are metropolitan commuters living 40-50 miles out and are now virtually inelliglbe to use your product. 

To expect someone to willing drop $20k to 40k+ into something that strands them within a 100mile radius is asking a bit much, I think. ...which means we're assuming it's a second vehicle..which for many households is advantagous, expected, and the norm. For single non-property owners such as myself (as an example), a second vehicle is financially and logistically ridiculus unless it's a tiny commuter vehicle intended to get me into/out of/around town which costs less than $4-5k and is thus virutally disposable because it'll most likely retain most of its value and can be hawked off when it's time to move on. 

I have severe problems with an expensive vehicle that prevents me from driving to any city other than the one I reside in. If we had any other way to get around I'd be all for it. ....but we don't. Short of the bus, getting groped at the airport, or in (limited places) trains betwen cities...we just don't have ANY options...and I'm not renting a car with a longer range every time I want to get out of town. 

Ihile I don't disagree that the idea of "range anxiety" is one that can be mitigated through social education and awareness (though I suspect 'somewhat' mitigated would be the best you could hope for)...I also think that RA is currently a very real issue that manufacturers have to contend with. ...and I just can't see any large manufacturer pushing a product that by it's very design excludes such vast groups of people who want to spend money. 

Active EV enthusiasts, unforutnately, make up a much, much tinier piece of the marketing pie than everyone else who drives.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I'm not saying EVs will become a majority of the market anytime in the near future. All I am saying is that for the small market like myself who don't like having to buy a new car every several years and have another "primary" vehicle we already use, it makes perfect sense. 

The lack of maintenance and its inherent reliability makes it a perfect second vehicle.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to mention that the current 100 mile range limitation of the LEAF should be surpassed in a few years time. There are no technological barriers to a 200 mile EV, just cost. Better aerodynamic design and some weight savings could give us much longer range with existing batteries. Nissan did a fairly extensive conversion but the LEAF is not a ground up fully optimized new design. EV's aren't for everyone, yet, but they can and will work for a large number of people.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Kyran64 said:


> There's a difference between not going more than 100 miles in a day...and not being ABLE to go more than 100 miles. As a nation, our public transportation and infrastructure getting into/out of most cities is pathetic if it exists at all. So, as a manufacturer designing an moderate to exensive vehicle that can't GO anywhere.... you find yourself looking at millions of middle/upper-middle class drivers who are metropolitan commuters living 40-50 miles out and are now virtually inelliglbe to use your product.
> 
> To expect someone to willing drop $20k to 40k+ into something that strands them within a 100mile radius is asking a bit much, I think. ...which means we're assuming it's a second vehicle..which for many households is advantagous, expected, and the norm. For single non-property owners such as myself (as an example), a second vehicle is financially and logistically ridiculus unless it's a tiny commuter vehicle intended to get me into/out of/around town which costs less than $4-5k and is thus virutally disposable because it'll most likely retain most of its value and can be hawked off when it's time to move on.
> 
> ...


But a large manufacturer IS pushing the Leaf, and quite heavily. And as far as excluding "vast groups of people", two seater roadsters aren't viable for most people, yet there is a substantial market for them. In fact, just about every major manufacturer makes one.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

*Re: the Chevy Volt is fine by me - Made in USA, that what important*

Made in USA, that what important. I did test drive one, see it here http://1-ev.blogspot.com

Great Car!!!


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## tigers2007 (Mar 13, 2011)

GM needs to push that to 100 miles. With the $7500 credit, I would buy one in a heartbeat. My commute is 72 miles r/t. Hell, if I buy one of these, can I put 10 more batteries in the trunk? GM should sell an optional "TrunkPak" that will give extra range. I'd pay extra for the juice.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

Watch out, that $7200 credit is not off the price of the car, but a tax credit so you can deduct $7200 off your taxable income, worth may be a few hundred in hard money. Same goes for the Leaf. With that it's not looking so good. Talk with your dealer. I talked to our local dealer about the Volt sitting on the lot. It's a tax deduction not hard cash off the price of the car.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Watch out, that $7200 credit is not off the price of the car, but a tax credit so you can deduct $7200 off your taxable income, worth may be a few hundred in hard money. Same goes for the Leaf. With that it's not looking so good. Talk with your dealer. I talked to our local dealer about the Volt sitting on the lot. It's a tax deduction not hard cash off the price of the car.


I was under the impression that it was made a tax rebate instantly taking money off the sticker price.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Watch out, that $7200 credit is not off the price of the car, but a tax credit so you can deduct $7200 off your taxable income, worth may be a few hundred in hard money. Same goes for the Leaf. With that it's not looking so good. Talk with your dealer. I talked to our local dealer about the Volt sitting on the lot. It's a tax deduction not hard cash off the price of the car.


Its not a deduction, its a tax credit. Kinda like the home buyer's credit. Also, there has been talk about applying this at the point of sale, so it is directly applied to the price of the vehicle and you don't have to wait until tax time. I don't recall if this has passed yet.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2011)

> A tax credit is a sum deducted from the total amount a taxpayer owes to the state.


Treated the same as any deduction. It just reduces your taxable income. Not hard cash. Can't be used as hard cash in this light. Each persons yearly income is not the same. It is used to lure you into buying based on you MIGHT get $7500 knocked of the price. Well it's not that at all. It has been presented as such but never clearly stated. It is a common rouse. 

I can afford the Leaf with no discount but it would be good if they were up front and truthful about the credit. 

Pete


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Treated the same as any deduction. It just reduces your taxable income. Not hard cash. Can't be used as hard cash in this light. Each persons yearly income is not the same. It is used to lure you into buying based on you MIGHT get $7500 knocked of the price. Well it's not that at all. It has been presented as such but never clearly stated. It is a common rouse.
> 
> I can afford the Leaf with no discount but it would be good if they were up front and truthful about the credit.
> 
> Pete


It doesn't reduce taxable income(like a deduction does), it reduces total tax burden(total tax amount). Thats a BIG difference.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2011)

Refundable credit will be the proper way to get any kind of decent return. Is there a guaranteed refundable credit for California Buyers? The dealer said its only a deduction. Could be a bunch of bull to try to get you to buy with out the credits so they make full funding. 

Pete 

I have not yet heard that you actually will get a that full credit and that it will be worth that full amount here in California. I have only heard Credit up to $7500.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. The IRS makes sure they confuse you pretty good, don't they?

The confusion comes in when they describe the "credit" as a Federal Tax income which, of course, we think it's an income credit as reported in your tax return. But in fact, it's a credit that will give you all of $7500 back no matter your income or tax due. Here's clarification of that: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxfaqs.shtml#q1 Send the link to the dealer so they stop scaring customers away.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

tigers2007 said:


> GM needs to push that to 100 miles. With the $7500 credit, I would buy one in a heartbeat. My commute is 72 miles r/t. Hell, if I buy one of these, can I put 10 more batteries in the trunk? GM should sell an optional "TrunkPak" that will give extra range. I'd pay extra for the juice.


There is no point in increasing the battery only range that much in a hybrid, nor would it be cost effective. It would be a $55-$60K vehicle if they did so.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> It would be a $55-$60K vehicle if they did so.


Looks like it's already there in some cases: http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/04/poll-how-rampant-is-chevy-volt-dealer-price-gouging/

JR


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I think we need to sell either electric cars or gas cars. Putting two power plants in one vehicle just makes for one really expensive car. With the money that goes into the hybrids I.C.E. power train that money could have built a 200 mile or so full electric car. Just look at the Tesla Model S. It will cost 50 to 60 grand and has a full electric range of 300 miles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not exactly, the 300 mile range version will cost more, like $70-$80K. Unfortunately there are still a lot of people who don't think a 200 or even 300 mile range EV is enough, so they will be stuck with hybrids of some sort.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't see how a 200 mile range could not be enough. Christ, how far do people think they need to drive in a single day anyways?


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> I don't see how a 200 mile range could not be enough. Christ, how far do people think they need to drive in a single day anyways?


Don't confuse what people actually need , or would use, with what people want to have... or say they need.

They want what they want ... even if they don't know why they want it ... even if it wastes money, even if it hurts them ... they want what they want... and they want it now.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

IamIan said:


> Don't confuse what people actually need , or would use, with what people want to have... or say they need.
> 
> They want what they want ... even if they don't know why they want it ... even if it wastes money, even if it hurts them ... they want what they want... and they want it now.


True, but I think people can be easily swayed by advertising. The auto manufacturers tell people how badly they needed Hummers and low and behold, they bought them. Never mind that an H2 does not fit in a standard garage.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

JRoque said:


> Hi. The IRS makes sure they confuse you pretty good, don't they?
> 
> The confusion comes in when they describe the "credit" as a Federal Tax income which, of course, we think it's an income credit as reported in your tax return. But in fact, it's a credit that will give you all of $7500 back no matter your income or tax due. Here's clarification of that: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxfaqs.shtml#q1 Send the link to the dealer so they stop scaring customers away.
> 
> JR


Thanks, thats essentially what I was trying to say, but I couldn't find a good link


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> True, but I think people can be easily swayed by advertising. The auto manufacturers tell people how badly they needed Hummers and low and behold, they bought them. Never mind that an H2 does not fit in a standard garage.


Well if advertising was not effective no one would use it.

That having been said ... I don't think advertising is a core problem... at most it can influence ... but ultimately the choice is still the people's to make... good choices and well as bad choices.

If you put $100 Trillion dollars into an advertising campaign to promote commuting with pogo sticks ... sure you might provide some influence and a few people might chose to try it ... but no matter how much money you throw at advertising commuting by pogo stick ... I seriously doubt you will be able to convince the people to get rid of their 20+ million cars in favor of pogo sticks... I'd be pretty shocked even with $100 Trillion in advertising if you could even manage 1 million converts.


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## HDS (Aug 11, 2008)

Hi all,
I have read most of this thread and I realize that I am coming into it very late. I do not know if anyone will actually see this. 

I am a wiring inspector and see alot of people with electrical backrounds every day and we occasionally talk about EV's, their future, etc. The greatest concern that I hear is this. "If you run out of power, you can't run down to the corner station to get a gallon of electricity." I believe that that is the great fear that "John Q. Public" has with electric vehicles. The Volt addresses this concern by having gasoline backup. If your batteries run out, you will still make it home. 

They are also not keen on the concept that if your batteries are running low, that you will be on the highway, limping along at 20 MPH in the breakdown lane. I can't speak for the rest of you, but if that was me and my wife was in the passenger seat, I had better pray to go deaf in my right ear because her mouth would not stop and it would be 85 decibels all the way home. 

Seeing that this does not happen with an electric vehicle does require a certain amount of diligence that not everyone is up to. If your vehicle has a 75 mile range and work is 35 miles away, you are going to want to plug it in while at work to top it off. If you are running late and forget, you may make it home ok but you may be pushing the envelope. You may plug it in and a maintenance man unplugs it to recharge his cordless drill battery and forgets to plug your car back in and there you go. 

To appeal to "all" the masses, not just the likes of us who read these pages, it has to be more "idiot-proof", and I think that the Volt is trying to address this.

Keep it coming, it is always an education to come here. My best to all.
HDS


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure for people who need more range than current EV's can provide the Volt is a good choice. For those who don't need more range than the current EV's provide the Volt is a poor choice since you have to pay for the added complexity that comes with dragging around an ICE you don't really need.
As to running out of charge and creeping along the highway, I'll take that any day over running out of gas and being stuck in the middle of the highway, which happens every day to thousands of motorists. The fact is you are probably closer to an outlet than you are to a gas station most of the time.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello HDS, good to know we have a wiring inspector on the forum - god knows some of us really need some guidance on this topic. You must cringe every time you see some of our conversion pictures.



HDS said:


> ...The Volt addresses this concern by having gasoline backup. If your batteries run out, you will still make it home.


The problem I have with the Volt is that it's ICE is not a backup system but the primary source of power. If the Volt would do 100 miles per charge and then get you another 50 with anything else - and it can be cow manure for all I care - then it's an electric car with a backup system. But the Volt gives you 35 miles on batteries - unless you go fast - and a "backup" of 300 extra miles. GM is hooked on gas and this was a lame attempt to prove otherwise.

For full disclosure, I'm not a crunchy granola tree huger. We have a fat pig of a Ford Expedition that gives me 11 miles to the gallon on a good day. My beef is with the complexity, dirtiness, inefficiency and costs of ICE technology. The Volt solves none of those but instead adds additional complexity in the form of an electric drive with a marvel clutch system that will take a lot of specialized tools and a PhD to fix.

It is true that if you run out of battery power, you can't just bring some back from a station to let you continue. That is a far better argument against EVs than the so called range anxiety. Maybe flow type batteries will address this issue. Maybe it will take a new way of thinking about power management. I think I'm the exception, but I've never run out of gasoline in the middle of the road so perhaps people like me are better suited for EV ownership. That said, the benefits of a true EV outweigh risks like that for me.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> It is true that if you run out of battery power, you can't just bring some back from a station to let you continue.


Actually a tow truck with a generator or dump pack could do exactly that. Chances are even the most dimwitted would run out of charge fairly close to their destination so would only need a small charge to complete the trip. Once we get to 150-200 mile packs and a reasonable network of charge stations I'd say range anxiety is pretty much done anyway.


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## HDS (Aug 11, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hello HDS, good to know we have a wiring inspector on the forum - god knows some of us really need some guidance on this topic. You must cringe every time you see some of our conversion pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most of what I see in conversions I consider good down home, grass roots, engineering and design that builds a foundation and continuously raises the bar a snitch. All of this is good for the industry especially when it is shared on these pages. The only part that makes me cringe is the fact that high voltage (anything over say 50 volts) is inherently many times more dangerous than the same voltage in A/C. When I see very large, bare terminals, especially in close proximity to each other, with thousands of amps available in a short circuit, I cringe.

I did not realize the the Volt was 35 miles of battery with 300 miles of gas. It kind of makes it a large ICE cake with EV frosting. I can't say I like that, especially for that money.

HDS


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Unfortunately the battery packs used in all EVs are dc until they get to the control systems, so they are all capable of death. But then again so is the flammable material in an I.C.E. engine. We simply have to face the fact that some things will always be inherently dangerous.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey guys, we have AAA already helping us out on the range issue 
"AAA ready to deploy mobile EV charging units"

http://www.gizmag.com/aaa-mobile-ev-charging-units/19042/


My 2c...
-Y.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Whoa! Excellent news!!! Thanks for that. Most of us should have AAA or some sort of roadside assistance anyway since we don't usually have space left for a spare tire. 

JR


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## btower (May 29, 2012)

As far as i'm concerned the Volt is awesome. So far, 1 Month, 1850 Miles, 5.8 Gallons of Gas Consumed, Approx: $30 in electricity, normal day about 60 Mile Commute (wifey can charge at work for free) 0 gas, weekend trips as long as 300 miles (took 120V charger and charged up at cottage).

Leased for about $400/mo, figure we're saving $100/mo (gas and lease) over comparable sized/outfitted vehicle.

Gets about 50 miles per charge on normal commute (no highway) 

40 miles with A/C when it gets hot. 

We've burned at least twice the gas in the mower and other tools in the last month, its beginning to piss me off, so converting the mower is next on the plan.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

You'd be surprised what it would take to impress me for $12,500.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

notnull said:


> I still consider it to be a true EV, which it is as long as the battery pack is being used to power the vehicle. Once you exhaust the pack, you have a range extending gas generator available that allows you to have all the range you want.


So you just described one reason it's not a true EV. Emissions inspections, oil changes, exhaust components, etc., are all further reasons it's not an EV. A plug in hybrid which rarely uses the gas engine is still a plug in hybrid. Nothing wrong with that if it fits your needs.


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## 1-ev.com (Nov 4, 2010)

*ALSO*, if let say 50% commuters will use EVs for daily drives, we would be an OPEC country...  where 98% of our TOTAL Gasoline Consumption comes from our Highways, (*140,305 mil Gal TOTAL and **137,166 mil Gal of Highway) ... *most of us going to work and back... !!!! 

According to BTS.gov and DOT.gov - http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_07.html

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2010/vm1.cfm 

*PLUS*, all or most money stay in USA, (Utility companies are LOCAL...)

My 2 c,
-Y.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well that was odd. Apparently notnull made a few posts and then just deleted his entire account, I guess because some of us didn't agree that the Volt is an EV? My email notification contained this post from him:


> Well, that did not go as I hoped. I thought people would actually look up my previous ride, since I mentioned in the post that I had done a conversion. Maybe someone will actually look at it now that I posted the link. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/127 Had a great time doing it and it was an awesome project, but it was still a twenty year old car with lead acid batteries. I was lucky enough to sell it for what I had in it. I assumed once people realized I was actually one of them and had done my own conversion that my review of the Volt might actually be useful coming from the perspective of a DIY person. Unfortunately, the audience for this message is not on a site like this and that was my mistake. You certainly can't tell other folks who have also done car conversions anything, because we (myself included) already know everything. I should have learned that lesson by now, hopefully this time it will stick and I can resist posting. Thanks again for the lesson, gentlemen. No hard feelings, if you are ever in Tallahassee, give me a call and I would be happy to show you what the Volt can do. Steve


I'm not sure how we were supposed to respond to his Volt review. I've read plenty of them, most people say it's a good vehicle and they are quite happy with it. Great. It's still not an EV, it's a plug in hybrid.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Buyer's remorse, or GM shill? The world may never know.


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

this is what the volt should have been:
http://www.tatamegapixel.com/technology-specification.asp


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, it should have been this: http://ephase.blogspot.com/2012/03/where-gm-went-wrong-with-volt.html 


Or even better, this, a real EV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2012/03/where-gm-went-wrong-with-volt.html


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

a cadillac branded volt, or a solectra sunrise....both way too expensive
the one i linked does what the volt does better, and only costs 9-10k


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The Tata is a much smaller vehicle, and I doubt it passes US safety tests, and it doesn't have the performance of the Volt, more like a glorified golf cart. It's also not available as far as I can tell, so any "price" quote seems meaningless. Don't put too much trust in a press release.


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## muffildy (Oct 11, 2011)

true, its not a production vehicle yet, and yes it doesnt have the performance - it has the efficiency instead. I trust the price though since they already manufacture the cheapest production car on the planet.
i sooo want that glorified golf cart! mmm also would love to get my hands on a vw 1 liter but that would be too expensive probably.


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