# Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

1. Tesla is founded.
2. Tesla needs more money, pulls in active investor Elon Musk.
3. Tesla has very successful product introduction
4. Tesla slips its schedule due to transmission that can't hold up, long term.
4a. But hey, anyone can make a mistake. Keep the faith!
5. Tesla slips its schedule AGAIN, due to transmission, AGAIN.
5a. You made the same f***ing mistake twice?!?
6. Major investor hires someone to do the nasty work of firing people.
6a. First the CEO goes,
6b. And then a bunch of other people who are considered to be at fault.

I've seen this sort of thing before. Even the Beatles did it, when
they hired a band manager whose first job was to get rid of Pete Best.

But the big thing it reminds me of is when Steve Jobs retook his CEO
post at Apple. Steve had been told by multiple sources that there was
a lot of deadweight at Apple, and so one day he got into the elevator
with an employee, and asked that employee what they did. By the time
the elevator got to where it was going, the employee still hadn't been
able to tell Steve what it was he did, and so that was the end of the
job for that employee. Another time someone put up a funny poster
that made fun of Apple's security people, and how easy it was to take
things what with all the moves going on. That employee lost their
job. Then the Newton got cut, and on and on. Then Apple started
watching all e-mail to watch for product leaks; a friend was going to
Yosemite and their e-mails to friends were delayed for 3 days because
he talked about Merced, which was an internal Apple codename, and
Apple security had to be sure he wasn't leaking anything. No one
remembers it now, but a lot of people hated working for Steve back
then.

It also reminds of Cisco Systems, when in 1990 the board fired Sandra
Lerner, one of its founders. To show his support, her husband (who
was himself a founder), Leonard Bosack, also resigned. And then he
sold all his shares in protest, netting a cool $170 million. Ten
years later, at the height of the telecom boom, Cisco was the most
valuable company in the world; had Leonard held onto his shares rather
than selling them, he would have been richer than Bill Gates.

It's really too early to tell how this is going to shake out. For the
moment, working at Tesla is a hell of a lot less fun than it used to
be, and there are a lot of people who are very nervous. But let's get
real: this is a company with probably at least 100-200 employees, and
they have absolutely no revenue stream(*). Their main product has
slipped by a year already, at a cost of probably somewhere between $20
million and $30 million. If they continue with their ambitions, they
will need a LOT more money than that, and future product delays are
going to cost a LOT more money; as a result it's not surprising to see
that Elon demanded change.

I'm not sure when exactly they're going to ship my roadster, but one
thing's for sure: bookofjoe.com is stupid for using the word RIP in
conjunction with the Roadster, idiotic for saying that the company is
circling the drain, and clueless as far as blaming the batteries. The
company remains well-funded and could easily get more cash if needed,
though a little more dilution of existing shareholders might be
required to do so.

(*) No, http://shop.teslamotors.com/ doesn't count as a revenue stream.



> Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]> wrote:
> > http://www.bookofjoe.com/2008/01/tesla-electric.html This blog says there
> > are major changes at Tesla. Anyone know what is happening there? Lawrence
> > Rhodes......
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Yes, there have been big changes at Tesla, and yes these changes seem
to have been handled rather poorly.

However, this company is growing, so it is understandable. I don't
think it is anything that we should worry about.

On 1/17/08, Jorg Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> 1. Tesla is founded.
> 2. Tesla needs more money, pulls in active investor Elon Musk.
> 3. Tesla has very successful product introduction
> 4. Tesla slips its schedule due to transmission that can't hold up, long term.
> 4a. But hey, anyone can make a mistake. Keep the faith!
> 5. Tesla slips its schedule AGAIN, due to transmission, AGAIN.
> 5a. You made the same f***ing mistake twice?!?
> 6. Major investor hires someone to do the nasty work of firing people.
> 6a. First the CEO goes,
> 6b. And then a bunch of other people who are considered to be at fault.
>
> I've seen this sort of thing before. Even the Beatles did it, when
> they hired a band manager whose first job was to get rid of Pete Best.
>
> But the big thing it reminds me of is when Steve Jobs retook his CEO
> post at Apple. Steve had been told by multiple sources that there was
> a lot of deadweight at Apple, and so one day he got into the elevator
> with an employee, and asked that employee what they did. By the time
> the elevator got to where it was going, the employee still hadn't been
> able to tell Steve what it was he did, and so that was the end of the
> job for that employee. Another time someone put up a funny poster
> that made fun of Apple's security people, and how easy it was to take
> things what with all the moves going on. That employee lost their
> job. Then the Newton got cut, and on and on. Then Apple started
> watching all e-mail to watch for product leaks; a friend was going to
> Yosemite and their e-mails to friends were delayed for 3 days because
> he talked about Merced, which was an internal Apple codename, and
> Apple security had to be sure he wasn't leaking anything. No one
> remembers it now, but a lot of people hated working for Steve back
> then.
>
> It also reminds of Cisco Systems, when in 1990 the board fired Sandra
> Lerner, one of its founders. To show his support, her husband (who
> was himself a founder), Leonard Bosack, also resigned. And then he
> sold all his shares in protest, netting a cool $170 million. Ten
> years later, at the height of the telecom boom, Cisco was the most
> valuable company in the world; had Leonard held onto his shares rather
> than selling them, he would have been richer than Bill Gates.
>
> It's really too early to tell how this is going to shake out. For the
> moment, working at Tesla is a hell of a lot less fun than it used to
> be, and there are a lot of people who are very nervous. But let's get
> real: this is a company with probably at least 100-200 employees, and
> they have absolutely no revenue stream(*). Their main product has
> slipped by a year already, at a cost of probably somewhere between $20
> million and $30 million. If they continue with their ambitions, they
> will need a LOT more money than that, and future product delays are
> going to cost a LOT more money; as a result it's not surprising to see
> that Elon demanded change.
>
> I'm not sure when exactly they're going to ship my roadster, but one
> thing's for sure: bookofjoe.com is stupid for using the word RIP in
> conjunction with the Roadster, idiotic for saying that the company is
> circling the drain, and clueless as far as blaming the batteries. The
> company remains well-funded and could easily get more cash if needed,
> though a little more dilution of existing shareholders might be
> required to do so.
>
> (*) No, http://shop.teslamotors.com/ doesn't count as a revenue stream.
>
>


> Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > http://www.bookofjoe.com/2008/01/tesla-electric.html This blog says there
> > > are major changes at Tesla. Anyone know what is happening there? Lawrence
> > > Rhodes......
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:44:55 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?
>
> Yes, there have been big changes at Tesla, and yes these changes seem
> to have been handled rather poorly.
>
> However, this company is growing, so it is understandable. I don't
> think it is anything that we should worry about.

I'm certainly not worried about it. It has zero affect on me or anyone I c=
are about. They are building products that I will likely never be able to =
afford, and I suspect in the end they will fold like every startup auto man=
ufacturer does. When was the last time that anyone besides the corporate b=
ehemoths successfully put a line of automobiles on America's highways?

If you want an Electric Car read this list and figure out how to convert on=
e yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. I don't expect that to ch=
ange anytime soon.

damon


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> damon henry wrote:
> > I'm certainly not worried about it. It has zero affect on me or anyone I care about.
> 
> that's short sighted. if Tesla fails completely that might give fat auto
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Some of them don't need any excuses to drag their feet. There is an
interview of the main guy behind the Volvo Recharge project and I almost had
a spit-take when he casually said that the technology in the concept won't
be available to consumers for a decade or more!

-----Original Message-----
that's short sighted. if Tesla fails completely that might give fat auto 
the excuse to drag their feet some more. maybe take 5 years more of our 
lives.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Yeah, but it seems like the GM Volt is a direct response to the Tesla
Roadster. If Tesla goes under, it would give GM an excuse to not build
the Volt, much like the weakening of CARB's mandates gave them an
excuse to get rid of the EV1.

I don't know if their customer relations could handle another issue
like that, but Tesla going under would certainly make it much more of
an option.

-Morgan LaMoore



> <[email protected].xxx> wrote:
> > Some of them don't need any excuses to drag their feet. There is an
> > interview of the main guy behind the Volvo Recharge project and I almost had
> > a spit-take when he casually said that the technology in the concept won't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

>
> I'm certainly not worried about it. It has zero affect on me or anyone I care about. They are building products that I will likely never be able to afford, and I suspect in the end they will fold like every startup auto manufacturer does. When was the last time that anyone besides the corporate behemoths successfully put a line of automobiles on America's highways?
>
> If you want an Electric Car read this list and figure out how to convert one yourself or pay someone else to do it for you. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
>
> damon


Wow. The negativity of that comment about knocked me off my chair.

I take it you haven't read through their pages on the master plan.
1) Sell the high performance roadster first.
2) leverage the profit to build a 4 door luxury sedan
3) leverage the luxury sedan sales to fund a lower cost car for the
rest of us.

While I would of liked someone to hit the ground running with a car I
can afford, I understand the logic here.

What if battery packs in qty 100 cost 25K but could be 8K in qty 30,000

If I sell 100 $100,000 roadsters that is 10 million dollars of income to
work with

if I sell 30,000 $20,000 4 doors that is 600 million dollars of income.

but 100 * 25K is 2.5Million in battery pack money up front. 7.5
Million profit or 75K/car - 300% profit
but 30000 * 8K is 240Million in upfront battery cost. 360
Million profit or 12K/car - 150% profit

Now I am sure that they arn't paying these prices and I am using the
battery as the whole car price, just for illustration.

Now we gotta pay people and equipment costs and space to make 100 cars
vs 30000 cars.

Now If a company already had the people and facility and other models
making income.....(OMG, GM has NO excuse.)

Perhaps this is a way of getting your foot in the door without having it
smashed. GM is not worried about Tesla.(but maybe they should be,
corvette sales?)
If they immediately went after the midsize sedan market, I am sure it
would attract the attention of marketing lawyers at the big 3, The
negative ads would be worse than a presidential campaign.

I have worked for a company that had 55 people, they thought that was
big business and closed their doors because they didn't know how to
become a bigger company. Now I work for a company that has 2700 people,
They know to call that a medium size company. But the company has merged
with a big multinational and there are daily emails of people leaving,
being hired, and changing positions. Projects got canceled (everthing I
did for over a year, canceled) and new projects.

I am not worried because I know this is part of business.

The Tada motors nano is built with a small manufacture philosophy, the
car design was in a plastics technology magazine 10 or so years ago when
they were designing the process. Chrysler wanted to built these
shippable car companies that could be set up in emerging markets in
short time to make these. India was their target. I guess they sold the
idea off. (this car is injection molded in two halfs and glued together.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

> Wow. The negativity of that comment about knocked me off my chair.
>
> I take it you haven't read through their pages on the master plan.
> 1) Sell the high performance roadster first.
> 2) leverage the profit to build a 4 door luxury sedan
> 3) leverage the luxury sedan sales to fund a lower cost car for the
> rest of us.
>

I understand their plan, I just don't think it will work. I think the only=
way America (other countries may be different) will have dealerships full =
of Electric Cars that I can go buy just like a gasser is if the large estab=
lished auto manufacturers do it. They have too much money and power and wi=
ll use every means possible to protect their business from new comers and t=
o continue to define the market in a way which maximizes their profits.

I fully expect Tesla to fail, but that is just my opinion and worth every c=
ent you paid for it 

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

> =

> =

> > Wow. The negativity of that comment about knocked me off my chair.
> >
> > I take it you haven't read through their pages on the master plan.
> > 1) Sell the high performance roadster first.
> > 2) leverage the profit to build a 4 door luxury sedan
> > 3) leverage the luxury sedan sales to fund a lower cost car for the
> > rest of us.
> >
> =


that is a business plan that has been tried by many automotive startups ove=
r the years (not only ev) and always fails the successful plans start at th=
e cheap end and sell many, many units at small margins then once establishe=
d move into higher value and cost vehicles (think vw, honda, toyota, and no=
w hyundai and kia are making it work) I think everyone would love to see th=
is work but for such a price selling very few units and the customers expec=
t perfection if you are selling a 4 seat ev for $10,000 you'll sell million=
s of them and even if the profit margin is very small the company will surv=
ive and the customers will be more tolerant of minor issues because the car=
was a bargain (ev or not) plus with large quantities of vehicle actually b=
eing driven you immediately create a parts and service market for yourself,=
with 600 tesla roadsters most of which will be driven very little because =
the owners don't want to risk there $150,000 investment on the open road yo=
u now have no continuing revenue stream, I wish them the best but fear the =
worst

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

If Tesla's battery pack is really expensive using commoditized lithium
cobalt cells, I've got my doubts that lifepo batteries will get a heck of a
lot cheaper than they already are. If that's the case, then I have a
feeling that truly inexpensive Evs may not be possible until the new silicon
nanowire batteries get out of the lab, since you'll be able to have much
smaller battery packs and still get plenty of range.

-----Original Message-----
that is a business plan that has been tried by many automotive startups over
the years (not only ev) and always fails the successful plans start at the
cheap end and sell many, many units at small margins then once established
move into higher value and cost vehicles (think vw, honda, toyota, and now
hyundai and kia are making it work) I think everyone would love to see this
work but for such a price selling very few units and the customers expect
perfection if you are selling a 4 seat ev for $10,000 you'll sell millions
of them and even if the profit margin is very small the company will survive
and the customers will be more tolerant of minor issues because the car was
a bargain (ev or not) plus with large quantities of vehicle actually being
driven you immediately create a parts and service market for yourself, with
600 tesla roadsters most of which will be driven very little because the
owners don't want to risk there $150,000 investment on the open road you now
have no continuing revenue stream, I wish them the best but fear the worst


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

The thing is that Tesla's cells are LiCoO2, which uses Cobalt, a rare
and expensive metal.

Instead of Cobalt, LiFePO4 uses Iron and Phosphorous, which are both
incredibly abundant and cheap.

The materials cost of LiFePO4 is far cheaper than that of LiCoO2.

Also, I'd say that LiFePO4 is already about usable as-is. Lead prices
are going up and LiFePO4 prices are going down; hopefully within 5
years it will be the cheaper option.

-Morgan LaMoore



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If Tesla's battery pack is really expensive using commoditized lithium
> > cobalt cells, I've got my doubts that lifepo batteries will get a heck of a
> > lot cheaper than they already are. If that's the case, then I have a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

They use the Tzero battery packs (I believe) 3800 AA size batteries in modules..the size is 18650, a standard battery from all accounts, the price of these has come down tremendously so there pack is only about 5K but you have 3800 batteries, and thus 3800 potential fires or explosions from thermal events, if you don't monitor down to the cell level...3800 little sets of packagin material, 3800 little connectors....The labor to assemble these must be nuts....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> robert harder wrote:
> > that is a business plan that has been tried by many automotive startups over the years (not only ev) and always fails
> 
> you mean like Lotus failed. Lamborghini. Ferrari.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Also, I'd say that LiFePO4 is already about usable as-is. Lead prices
> > are going up and LiFePO4 prices are going down; hopefully within 5
> > years it will be the cheaper option.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> robert harder wrote:
> >> Jeff Shanab write:
> >>
> >>> Wow. The negativity of that comment about knocked me off my chair.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Tesla can and perhaps have already been able to make SAFE LiCo-packs. 
That is not the issue. I think the biggwest challenge is to get pack 
life to even decent numbers.

-Jukka


[email protected] kirjoitti:
> They use the Tzero battery packs (I believe) 3800 AA size batteries in modules..the size is 18650, a standard battery from all accounts, the price of these has come down tremendously so there pack is only about 5K but you have 3800 batteries, and thus 3800 potential fires or explosions from thermal events, if you don't monitor down to the cell level...3800 little sets of packagin material, 3800 little connectors....The labor to assemble these must be nuts....
> _____________________________________________________________
> Explore paradise with a great Hawaiian cruise. Click here for package deals!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4ve20wm5vnXrDSpfRX4tAUsupGzD4fYRBj9lYpXM22lIIXpl/
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

> why it took 35m$ investment.
I think you under estimate the cost of manufacturing R&D.
It cost 100k+ to produce all the hand lay-up tooling for the
Veepster. =

=

A single injection mold for a high rate plasitc part is 5-50k. =

That is build only, not process engineering or product design work.
Marketing, business development. Add that in too.
=

For a 100k valued vehicle, 35m says a minimum production run of =

350 vehicles times the margine of profit. =

=

That's no money at all and not enough to interest an major maker.
=

They need to produce the perception of an ongoing market with growth.



=





Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07=
:05:28 +0100> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subjec=
t: Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?> > robert harder wrote:> =
> that is a business plan that has been tried by many automotive startups o=
ver the years (not only ev) and always fails> > you mean like Lotus failed.=
Lamborghini. Ferrari.> Porsche is doing ok too from what I hear> > be care=
ful about hindsight viewpoints> > when people line up to pay 100k$ for a re=
latively small car it can work > unless you fuck it up at the finish line w=
ith transmission problems. if > that is truly what the problem is. come to =
think of it, shouldn't Lotus > have transmission experience..> > one possib=
le criticism I would level is why it takes 250 people to do > what is rough=
ly a conversion of an existing car. why it took 35m$ > investment. I know E=
lon said that is cheap but how many of you spent > that much on making conv=
ersions.. (there's even the guy in florida who > seems to include fiber bod=
y work in his). it only costs a few thousand > dollars to put a car on a bo=
at to run it in the snow of Norway. and why > it couldn't be tested in Cana=
da beats me.> > when you throw in 35m$ you set up tough goals for profit, t=
o get that > investment back with interest and inflation. other than suicid=
e that's > the only real problem I see for them. I think it's that 35m$ tha=
t made > Elon freak at a 1 year delay.> > I think the Roadster will be made=
but will the Whitestar.. will they > know to keep it simple. or kill thems=
elves on complexity> > Dan> > _____________________________________________=
__> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

I'm sorry, the Tesla site says there are 6800 cells....

that equates to 1 in 30 cars with a potential failure...

Large format cells would make the picture better...but the events would be larger due to the incresed cell size....

Give me the Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry! If we can get large format cells at a reasonable price the reduced packaging will likely make up for the reduced energy density....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

It would appear that this dialog is OT for the EVDL.

Not my cup of tea here I think. Good by. Do good works!








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:24:56 -0700> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?> > > > why it took 35m$ investment.> I think you under estimate the cost of manufacturing R&D.> It cost 100k+ to produce all the hand lay-up tooling for the> Veepster. > > A single injection mold for a high rate plasitc part is 5-50k. > That is build only, not process engineering or product design work.> Marketing, business development. Add that in too.> > For a 100k valued vehicle, 35m says a minimum production run of > 350 vehicles times the margine of profit. > > That's no money at all and not enough to interest an major maker.> > They need to produce the perception of an ongoing market with growth.> > > > > > > > > Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:05:28 +0100> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] [s!
feva] What is happening at Tesla?> > robert harder wrote:> > that is a business plan that has been tried by many automotive startups over the years (not only ev) and always fails> > you mean like Lotus failed. Lamborghini. Ferrari.> Porsche is doing ok too from what I hear> > be careful about hindsight viewpoints> > when people line up to pay 100k$ for a relatively small car it can work > unless you fuck it up at the finish line with transmission problems. if > that is truly what the problem is. come to think of it, shouldn't Lotus > have transmission experience..> > one possible criticism I would level is why it takes 250 people to do > what is roughly a conversion of an existing car. why it took 35m$ > investment. I know Elon said that is cheap but how many of you spent > that much on making conversions.. (there's even the guy in florida who > seems to include fiber body work in his). it only costs a few thousand > dollars to put a car on a boat to run it in the snow of N!
orway. and why > it couldn't be tested in Canada beats me.> > !
when you
throw in 35m$ you set up tough goals for profit, to get that > investment back with interest and inflation. other than suicide that's > the only real problem I see for them. I think it's that 35m$ that made > Elon freak at a 1 year delay.> > I think the Roadster will be made but will the Whitestar.. will they > know to keep it simple. or kill themselves on complexity> > Dan> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> _________________________________________________________________> Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan> _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Beyond the transmission issues, don't discount the R&D spent on the ESS as a
factor in the recent purge. I don't think LiCo packs are relevant anymore,
even for sports cars. The Lightning GT, for instance, is going to use
AltairNanos. The ESS was supposed to be Tesla's most valuable intellectual
property, its engineering triumph and the magic incredient to making Evs
viable. That's where the silicon valley angle came in, to write the
software to manage the ESS. Eberhard did not realize how rapidly safe
lithium technology would ramp up and how little returns they'd be able to
squeeze out of the ESS project. Even though people were screaming from the
rafters in the Tesla blogs a year ago for them to take the new battery
chemistries seriously, they kept moving ahead with Plan A. Meanwhile every
other EV project is using a safe lithium chemistry. So the Tesla roadster
is coming off of the assembly line already obsolete.

-----Original Message-----
Tesla can and perhaps have already been able to make SAFE LiCo-packs. 
That is not the issue. I think the biggwest challenge is to get pack 
life to even decent numbers.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

>From what I heard, one reason for the lithium cobolt choice was they had
life-cycle data that would allow a reasonable warantee period. The safer
chemistries still had a 5 year calender life question mark. If you are
forever upgradeing and changing your design, you will get no product out
the door. What you do is take a percentage of your people and put them
on the new stuff and keep the bulk on the task. That way you can
release, and update in the field.

Not starting a flamewar here, just illustrating a different perspective.
The calender life now is being proven on cylindrical LiFePo, but not the
lithium poly or prismatics.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> Arak Leatham wrote:
> > It would appear that this dialog is OT for the EVDL.
> 
> does electric vehicle development cease to be electric vehicle
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > So the Tesla roadster
> > is coming off of the assembly line already obsolete.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Hi Jeff,


> The calender life now is being proven on cylindrical LiFePo,>

Do you have a link for this?

Thanks

Cliff
www.ProEV.com



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

>>>Do you have a link for this?


LOL Not 1.
Instead I would point out how many sellers of lifepo4 are putting out
charts and warantees and are quoting calender lifes.

I meant more intuativly as packs are getting tested.

There are some life expectancy tests I saw done by government agencies,
especially for LEO satellites, and I posted that here but don't ask me
to find it!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*

Dan Fredrickson wrote>>>>

I'm a fan of LiFePO4 too for it's many strengths but for the unique 
marathon design of the Roadster only the high density cells would do..
Eberhard is not wrong in the sense you suggest.

Dan


While I am a fan of the lithium iron phosphate chemisty, I would prefer to see large format cells, with the Tesla/acpropulsion pack there are 6800 cells each with it's own packaging, and connections and you have additional wiring and monitoring.....

THe energy density at the cell level might be high...but what is it when the whole pack is considered...

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] [sfeva] What is happening at Tesla?*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Tesla/acpropulsion pack there are 6800 cells each with it's own packaging, and connections and you have additional wiring and monitoring.....
> > THe energy density at the cell level might be high...but what is it when the whole pack is considered...
> >
> ...


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