# message to moderators



## crashedup (Oct 28, 2008)

Hello! this is a message to the moderators! 
There should be a new title in the forum for hacking oem ev's, where everyone who has tried or has info on oem ev parts, because that is our future as DIY. It is the cheapest route out there and we end up with high qulity parts from junk yards for peanuts! 
Example; I called around and a battery pack out of a volt or leaf goes for around $2000, and that's without negociation because they have no idea what to do with the stuff! Imagin if we could use everything from a leaf or volt, motor, charger, battery. We could make a sub $10,000 quality ev!


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

A lot of it is CAN based, but yes, some parts would be nice to have professionally designed and tested. However, I have had no problems with the parts I have bought from the current vendors of EV parts that are willing to sell to us and make the specs and diagrams available.

I think the mods should move the EV Conversions and Builds section above the General Discussion section that is more of a distraction.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

crashedup said:


> ...There should be a new title in the forum for hacking oem ev's, where everyone who has tried or has info on oem ev parts, because that is our future as DIY. It is the cheapest route out there and we end up with high qulity parts from junk yards for peanuts!...


First off, you are repeating - practically word for word - what Jack Rickard has been trumpeting for the last few months.

Secondly, as soon as someone (or some group) figures out how to get any OEM EV component working outside of its intended environment the value of said component will go up; perhaps by an immense amount, if supply is constrained relative to demand.

Thirdly, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. By this I mean that if someone gets, say, the Leaf inverter to work outside of a Leaf that would more or less kill HPEVS, but HPEVS is a consistent and known supplier to the DIY EV market, whereas eBay and copart are not. In other words, the DIY EV market will become totally dependent on the fickle availability of components from wrecks. And this is not just self-serving fear-mongering on my part - I can tell you that someone posting here about the Honda Insight DC-DC being sold on ebay for $160 more or less killed off my DC-DC converter project. Personally, I'm just glad I found out about the Honda Insight DC-DC *before* I sunk too much money into my DC-DC design. I was literally days away from ordering $2000 worth of custom transformers and inductors to make 5 prototype units.


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## crashedup (Oct 28, 2008)

zsnemeth said:


> ...and this topic has nothing to do in the technical section!
> 
> Especially, when an Official Site Suggestions Thread already exist, probably for a reason.


ok great didn't see that sticky! ok move the tread there


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## crashedup (Oct 28, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> First off, you are repeating - practically word for word - what Jack Rickard has been trumpeting for the last few months.
> 
> Secondly, as soon as someone (or some group) figures out how to get any OEM EV component working outside of its intended environment the value of said component will go up; perhaps by an immense amount, if supply is constrained relative to demand.
> 
> Thirdly, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. By this I mean that if someone gets, say, the Leaf inverter to work outside of a Leaf that would more or less kill HPEVS, but HPEVS is a consistent and known supplier to the DIY EV market, whereas eBay and copart are not. In other words, the DIY EV market will become totally dependent on the fickle availability of components from wrecks. And this is not just self-serving fear-mongering on my part - I can tell you that someone posting here about the Honda Insight DC-DC being sold on ebay for $160 more or less killed off my DC-DC converter project. Personally, I'm just glad I found out about the Honda Insight DC-DC *before* I sunk too much money into my DC-DC design. I was literally days away from ordering $2000 worth of custom transformers and inductors to make 5 prototype units.


 I am aware that jack has been saying this, but what I am saying here is that there should be a forum tittle for junked parts that people have been testing on so all the threads on this topic can be regrouped together. The only parts that jack has been working on are the ones he purchased in those auctions, because he wants to be able to sell them and that is normal he's a businesman, but not in everyones interest because those parts are no longer available except by him and with a limited supply. There are lots of leafs and volts out there and ya of couse the value of these parts will probably increase, but still it will be quit a while before the guys from local scrapyards catch on about the diy market for these parts, and I doubt that someone will go around nation wide and swoop up all the ev wrecks out there.

And of course im aware that once this happens it will probably kill or at least really harm the current diy ev parts guys unfortunatly, but trying to keep this from happening to protect these company's is like what the oil company's have been trying to do to kill the electric car.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

This is actually somewhat on topic for the technical forum here:



Tesseract said:


> First off, you are repeating - practically word for word - what Jack Rickard has been trumpeting for the last few months.
> 
> Secondly, as soon as someone (or some group) figures out how to get any OEM EV component working outside of its intended environment the value of said component will go up; perhaps by an immense amount, if supply is constrained relative to demand.


Yes, this second point is the absolute truth. The moment it becomes viable to use something everyone will want more money for it. It's supply and demand as you said. As you know, I was one of the people responsible for resurrecting the DMOC645. I had bought about 5-6 of them from auction and wanted to be able to use them. They went for... very little at auction. They now sell for between $2000 and $2800. This is a steep increase in cost. You could buy them for next to nothing at auction because nobody knew if they could be used. Now we know they can and so the price is up. This same thing will happen for anything that is salvaged from bankruptcy or wrecked cars. The people who can buy the stuff cheap are the same people who will figure out how to hack it and then turn around and sell things for more money. I don't think this is any secret. But, those people are taking the risk that maybe it won't work out and they'll be left with useless hardware.



> Thirdly, be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. By this I mean that if someone gets, say, the Leaf inverter to work outside of a Leaf that would more or less kill HPEVS, but HPEVS is a consistent and known supplier to the DIY EV market, whereas eBay and copart are not. In other words, the DIY EV market will become totally dependent on the fickle availability of components from wrecks. And this is not just self-serving fear-mongering on my part - I can tell you that someone posting here about the Honda Insight DC-DC being sold on ebay for $160 more or less killed off my DC-DC converter project. Personally, I'm just glad I found out about the Honda Insight DC-DC *before* I sunk too much money into my DC-DC design. I was literally days away from ordering $2000 worth of custom transformers and inductors to make 5 prototype units.


Actually, I was building my own 3-phase inverter when the Azure Dynamics auction happened. You might notice that I have not built a 3-phase motor controller. It just wasn't worth it once I could have all the DMOCs I wanted and so could everyone else. Even today they are still available. So, yes, there can be fickle availability but that's starting to become much less of a problem. DMOCs are still available for sale. Coda motor controllers and motors are not exactly in short supply either. If somebody cracks the Leaf inverter then those will probably be reasonably available as well. Which actually reminds me, it has nearly happened. Someone figured out the CRC method used to validate the torque messages. I've posted C# code that executes the algorithm. It's only a matter of time until someone tries to control the motor via their own commands.

But, to tell you the truth, I do worry sometimes about what effect this might have on the established EV vendors. 

Back off topic but on topic for this actual thread:

I think that discussions about hacking OEM hardware could work just fine in the technical forum here. I'm not sure that a separate area is necessary. If somebody wants to talk about Leaf inverters then the technical forum seems like an OK place to do that.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

crashedup said:


> ...And of course im aware that once this happens it will probably kill or at least really harm the current diy ev parts guys unfortunatly, but trying to keep this from happening to protect these company's is like what the oil company's have been trying to do to kill the electric car.


That wasn't the point I was trying to make... rather, that once OEM components are reverse-engineered for use by DIYers, the companies that make DIY-specific products will exit the market. Maybe you don't care if your only choice of charger is the 3.3kW Leaf/Coda/whatever model, or your only choice of motor/controller is the 80kW peak Leaf system, but not everyone is going to be happy with such a limited selection.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CKidder said:


> ...The people who can buy the stuff cheap are the same people who will figure out how to hack it and then turn around and sell things for more money...


Kinda, sorta, not really... See, you bought 5-6 of the AzD inverters while Jack bought 65 of them, thus he will profit far more from your work on reverse-engineering them than you ever will. Furthermore, you probably put way more effort into the GEVCU than you would have otherwise done if you were just going to make a CAN bus interface for your own personal use.

And of course I can't help but wonder if the reason Jack so dislikes Otmar these days is because he balked at publicly releasing all the details from hacking his Model S... 



CKidder said:


> But, to tell you the truth, I do worry sometimes about what effect this might have on the established EV vendors.


Well, like I said to crashedup above, the end result is that there won't be any dedicated EV component manufacturers or vendors anymore. People think that the "Jegs" or "Summit Racing" subsection of the DIY EV market is large enough to sustain companies making "high performance" components, but that perception isn't even remotely close to reality. Just ask Rich Rudman how many Z2K controllers he sells per year... well, he probably won't tell you, but my guess is less than 10.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

once people figure out how to hack the leaf inverter, wont nissan change it all around to stop people from doing that?


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## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

That won't change the 140k units already in the wild (64k in the US alone). Should be plenty to satisfy the demands of the cottage ev makers for quite a while.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

arklan said:


> once people figure out how to hack the leaf inverter, wont nissan change it all around to stop people from doing that?


In the future, probably. It would likely influence them to do better on the next revision of motor controller. However, lots of them are already out in the wild so the genie is out of that bottle. 

However, I've contemplated whether it is even worth the time to try to hack Tesla hardware. The thing is, so far as I know, all Tesla cars have wireless firmware upgrading directly from Tesla. If I were to hack the inverter tomorrow then Tesla could change the encryption / validation for the controller and upgrade all the cars in the field the day after (well, maybe it wouldn't happen that soon but you get the point). Thus, Tesla hardware could be tough because they will certainly upgrade the roadworthy cars to stop that hardware from being used in other things or to stop the hardware from being driven by custom devices. In other words, Tesla could really throw a wrench in the works if they wanted to.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

crashedup said:


> Hello! this is a message to the moderators!
> There should be a new title in the forum for hacking oem ev's!


I think the way it's done is you create a thread with this _hacking_ conversation. Once it has an abundance of traffic such that thread design becomes unwieldy in supporting many simultaneous conversations, THEN a new category is created.

josh


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

crashedup said:


> Hello! this is a message to the moderators!
> There should be a new title in the forum for hacking oem ev's, where everyone who has tried or has info on oem ev parts, because that is our future as DIY. It is the cheapest route out there and we end up with high qulity parts from junk yards for peanuts!
> Example; I called around and a battery pack out of a volt or leaf goes for around $2000, and that's without negociation because they have no idea what to do with the stuff! Imagin if we could use everything from a leaf or volt, motor, charger, battery. We could make a sub $10,000 quality ev!


I would welcome such a thread which would be specific for OEM-(parts/hacking) but for other reasons than mentioned here. I personally look more into the additional features coming with modern cars like Airbag-system, and other stuff. I have not been keen on any electric drivetrain by the OEM-cars. This is based on years experience supporting such types off cars (Peugeot specifically).
If you get OEM-stuff it is usually
1) Outdated technology (Peugeot 106 parts, Azure Dynamics DMOC) . Meaning the stuff is from 5 year old cars which have been 5 years in production so you are looking at 10 years old stuff.
2) Broken or not fully functional (old battery-packs which have not been used for long time). Inverters using old transistor modules and outdated software.
3) Expensive. Even if you get the stuff cheap you still have to put a lot work to make it work for your application, especially when your car is different from the original donor.
4) Without warranty. I have no problems taking a risk and buying a few Siemens Motors from an auction for a few bucks but if I pay a few 1000 USD then I want warranty or some support.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

gunnarhs said:


> ...
> If you get OEM-stuff it is usually
> 1) Outdated technology...
> ...
> 4) Without warranty.....


Hmm... good points. The future of DIY-specific component makers is, perhaps, not so grim as I thought. Also, there is clearly a market for products which adapt OEM components better to DIY applications (e.g. - the GEVCU), but those kind of things don't really light my fire, so to speak.

Personally, I'd like to make a Level III charger with, most likely, a CHAdeMO output connector, but there would be little market for that until a couple model years of OEM cars go off warranty.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

CKidder said:


> In the future, probably. It would likely influence them to do better on the next revision of motor controller. However, lots of them are already out in the wild so the genie is out of that bottle.
> 
> However, I've contemplated whether it is even worth the time to try to hack Tesla hardware. The thing is, so far as I know, all Tesla cars have wireless firmware upgrading directly from Tesla. If I were to hack the inverter tomorrow then Tesla could change the encryption / validation for the controller and upgrade all the cars in the field the day after (well, maybe it wouldn't happen that soon but you get the point). Thus, Tesla hardware could be tough because they will certainly upgrade the roadworthy cars to stop that hardware from being used in other things or to stop the hardware from being driven by custom devices. In other words, Tesla could really throw a wrench in the works if they wanted to.


The Tesla inverter is probably a non starter for those reasons, but if those nice little induction motors started showing up on the salvage market for a decent price, it would be worth characterizing them on a different inverter....
And Tesla couldn't really do much to block usage of the motor.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

CKidder said:


> The thing is, so far as I know, all Tesla cars have wireless firmware upgrading directly from Tesla. If I were to hack the inverter tomorrow then Tesla could change the encryption / validation for the controller and upgrade all the cars in the field .


just disable wireless interface to stop Tesla from getting their dirty hands into your property


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

Personally I think hacking OEM parts for DIY EV purposes is probably a necessary evil at the moment but it’s also inherently selfish. It’s a practice that works for the individual (or perhaps small group) but seems to rarely benefit the community as a whole.
I’ve recently replaced both my failed DC/DC converter and Vacuum pump with salvaged OEM products and these parts are working well for me; however, I can’t help but feel a bit guilty when I talk to a perspective EV converter and they ask me “where did you get that?” The newbie or casual EV advocate isn’t going to be able to put in the time/resources to find and adapt these products and by using them myself I am effectively contributing to making the process of EV conversion look unattainable and I’m also not supporting a potential product manufactured specifically for this purpose and the DIY EV community. 
I think you only have to look at the scarcity of innovation in our “hobby” over the past few years to see evidence of the effects of this practice. All the brain power in the DIY EV community seems to be going towards hacking OEM products that are likely to only be available to a small number of people and unlikely to contribute to the growth of the market in any meaningful way.
I think we should always try to support those manufacturers who choose to design these products for this extremely small market. At the same time I wish that manufacturers would broaden and update their product lines a bit more. 
If you’re an existing or would-be DIY EV manufacturer do us all a favor and don’t build another DC controller, we’ve got a few good ones out there. Now a good charger, that’s another matter…


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

this grim tale doesnt apply in australia i dont think
there arent any salvaged oem EVs anywhere at all, we r about 10 years behind as far as all that goes
and the ev conversion manufacturer ZEVA makes plenty of money selling his stuff for an "australian" price (high)


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Yukon_Shane said:


> Personally I think hacking OEM parts for DIY EV purposes is probably a necessary evil at the moment but it’s also inherently selfish. It’s a practice that works for the individual (or perhaps small group) but seems to rarely benefit the community as a whole.
> I’ve recently replaced both my failed DC/DC converter and Vacuum pump with salvaged OEM products and these parts are working well for me; however, I can’t help but feel a bit guilty when I talk to a perspective EV converter and they ask me “where did you get that?” The newbie or casual EV advocate isn’t going to be able to put in the time/resources to find and adapt these products and by using them myself I am effectively contributing to making the process of EV conversion look unattainable and I’m also not supporting a potential product manufactured specifically for this purpose and the DIY EV community.
> I think you only have to look at the scarcity of innovation in our “hobby” over the past few years to see evidence of the effects of this practice. All the brain power in the DIY EV community seems to be going towards hacking OEM products that are likely to only be available to a small number of people and unlikely to contribute to the growth of the market in any meaningful way.
> I think we should always try to support those manufacturers who choose to design these products for this extremely small market. At the same time I wish that manufacturers would broaden and update their product lines a bit more.
> If you’re an existing or would-be DIY EV manufacturer do us all a favor and don’t build another DC controller, we’ve got a few good ones out there. Now a good charger, that’s another matter…


I'm sitting on both sides of the fence. I have helped to hack a wide variety of OEM hardware and I've helped to design some original hardware. I confess, there is a certain rush that a geek like me gets when they hack an OEM device and get it to work - it feels good. I guess at the time we don't think of what that'll do to the people trying to sell the fruits of the blood, sweat, and tears that they poured out to develop something nice for the DIY crowd. Mostly it just feels like we're freeing hardware that would otherwise go to waste. If nobody had bought the stuff from the Azure auction then it would have been scrapped. Instead people are driving around with the hardware. I guess I somewhat see it as saving perfectly good hardware from the dust bin. Ditto for things salvaged out of wrecks. Either it rots into the ground or someone uses it.

To some extent everyone also has to realize that the people doing this hacking are at least partially motivated by the fun and adventure of it. You might not think that reverse engineering validation / protection protocols would be fun but to the right person it is. So we push forward sometimes just to see if it is possible and if we can do it. It's also good practice. If you are a CompSci or EE person then hacking OEM hardware helps to sharpen your skills.

Still, I agree, if you can support the DIY manufacturers then you should. You're liable to get much better support from them and get a product better tailored to your needs. It also tends to have a warranty and someone who can repair it.


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## Yukon_Shane (Jul 15, 2010)

CKidder said:


> I'm sitting on both sides of the fence. I have helped to hack a wide variety of OEM hardware and I've helped to design some original hardware. I confess, there is a certain rush that a geek like me gets when they hack an OEM device and get it to work - it feels good. I guess at the time we don't think of what that'll do to the people trying to sell the fruits of the blood, sweat, and tears that they poured out to develop something nice for the DIY crowd. Mostly it just feels like we're freeing hardware that would otherwise go to waste. If nobody had bought the stuff from the Azure auction then it would have been scrapped. Instead people are driving around with the hardware. I guess I somewhat see it as saving perfectly good hardware from the dust bin. Ditto for things salvaged out of wrecks. Either it rots into the ground or someone uses it.
> 
> To some extent everyone also has to realize that the people doing this hacking are at least partially motivated by the fun and adventure of it. You might not think that reverse engineering validation / protection protocols would be fun but to the right person it is. So we push forward sometimes just to see if it is possible and if we can do it. It's also good practice. If you are a CompSci or EE person then hacking OEM hardware helps to sharpen your skills.
> 
> Still, I agree, if you can support the DIY manufacturers then you should. You're liable to get much better support from them and get a product better tailored to your needs. It also tends to have a warranty and someone who can repair it.


You make some very good points. I don't think that the individual who finds a way to hack an OEM part and make that hack available to the EV community should feel guilty about that, it's a significant achievement. I think what I'd say is a bit more troubling is the broader movement (perhaps championed by Jack Rickard) to undervalue the DIY manufacturer market and focus almost entirely on hacked OEM products. 

It's one thing to hack an inverter or other surplus product and incorporate it into you build and it's quite another to invest significant resources in trying to create a movement to hack all OEM parts and use them somewhat exclusively. I think Jack's intentions are good but I can't help but wonder what the long term consequence will be. What happens when we run out of surplus DMOC inverters? I personally would much rather look to Evnetics, HPEV, and/or Manzanita to supply my parts then Ford or GM. Getting away from a reliance on auto manufacturing decisions is part of the reason I built my EV in the first place.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

EV Vendors are not charities, they are in business to make a profit like anyone else, and its foolish to build $50,000 EVs just to keep them in business, when you should build four $10,000 EVs instead if you can. Our goal is to get off OIL, not keep EV Vendors fat and happy. 
OEM EVs do that just fine too.

How about we shed a tear for all the people who built $50,000 EVs,
and then could not sell them for $5,000?


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

The one product that I have the OEM version of is the BMS that came with the battery pack. While it would be nice if it worked, I'm not going to spend much time on it.

If someone gets it working in the future by hacking it, I would think about using it.

But, for the other components, I wanted to use companies that would help the end user not work against them because they didn't spend $30,000 for a new car. (If they sold an EV pickup truck, I would probably have been better off buying it I have to say. Although my truck will be awesome when it is done).

The one OEM part that I want to use since I haven't seen any third party make it are the guages:









There is one company making them for the tuner market, but this is where the controller companies or other DIY EV companies need to focus on. But since all of the dashes are different, it is very tough.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

If you have a good product that solves a problem for others, make it and sell it. Others will buy it and have their problem solved and you have the profit. If you have an idea that helps others, publish it. If someone uses it to solve their problem you have succeeded. If you have knowledge that others may use to better their lives and share it with them good for you. If folks use that knowledge good for them. Somehow I don't see how considering how your knowledge may impact the market comes into play. The capitalistic market will adjust one way or another based on a myriad of other factors. Ask Polaroid, Eastman Kodak and others.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

nimblemotors said:


> EV Vendors are not charities, they are in business to make a profit like anyone else, and its foolish to build $50,000 EVs just to keep them in business, when you should build four $10,000 EVs instead if you can. Our goal is to get off OIL, not keep EV Vendors fat and happy.
> OEM EVs do that just fine too.
> 
> How about we shed a tear for all the people who built $50,000 EVs,
> and then could not sell them for $5,000?


The problem at the moment is that the OEM are building $50.000 + expensive EV and the tax-payers are paying for it so they can sell it at $30.000. 
First comes government /EU-funding for "new" technology (500 million Euro for one company I know which has only produced hybrid cars yet)
Then TAX - reduction in the country it is sold to (sometimes two times reduction).
Other EV-vendors which produce parts (especially for for DIY ) get nothing. 
But this will even out in the end and then you will see the real prices.
For examples here in Iceland electric(OEM) EV get tax reduction but not their spare-parts. Meaning a new battery - pack will cost the dealer (owner when warranty is out) more than a similar used vehicle. 
Seen that already with Peugeot and MIEV, look to see the next victims


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Not going all Pollyanna here, but, it strikes me that this movement is very much akin to the EAA and homebuilders. They use oem as much as possible because it speeds development after the initial build. You will still have the same small percentage doing everything from scratch. Evnetics looks a lot like Lancair, except Tesseract has a better personality.


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## bwjunkie (Jul 31, 2013)

Mass production on even a small scale removes new discovery from the manufacturing process. Outsourcing it to some phase called R&D. This creates a new hurdle for the company to find ways to integrate the two teams such that they both evolve from each others experiences. Does R&D scrap their ideas when the production line has a stroke of genius? Trying to create a whole complete organism out of a company is a tall task, especially when we already are a complete organism, but replacing ourselves it to make more money, or benefit a greater whole (society), but not knowing if we are even doing that?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Mass production on even a small scale removes new discovery from the manufacturing process.
_
If it does then you are doing it wrong!
Sensible companies use their manufacturing workforce to continually drive improvements


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

bwjunkie said:


> Mass production on even a small scale removes new discovery from the manufacturing process. Outsourcing it to some phase called R&D. This creates a new hurdle for the company to find ways to integrate the two teams such that they both evolve from each others experiences. Does R&D scrap their ideas when the production line has a stroke of genius? Trying to create a whole complete organism out of a company is a tall task, especially when we already are a complete organism, but replacing ourselves it to make more money, or benefit a greater whole (society), but not knowing if we are even doing that?


Sorry, but reality isn't like this at all. This seems to be taken right from the academic environment without any backing from the real world at all. I have spent 40 years in R&D and information flowed freely between manufacturing and R&D all the time. This is how these processes get refined and improved. 

You simply can't get good developmental information from reading about it or being a community organizer, you have to live a bit of it first. Most folks making a living within that environment will tell you what you are hypothesizing about. 

Eric


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

nimblemotors said:


> EV Vendors are not charities, they are in business to make a profit like anyone else, and its foolish to build $50,000 EVs just to keep them in business, when you should build four $10,000 EVs instead if you can. Our goal is to get off OIL, not keep EV Vendors fat and happy.
> OEM EVs do that just fine too.


Correct, EV vendors (product manufacturers, etc.) are not charities, but in some cases they have to compete against what are effectively charities in all but name. By this I mean open source hardware, hacked OEM products and products from bankrupt companies that would otherwise be unusable if certain gifted programmers didn't do all kinds of work to make them usable... I'm not saying the aforementioned is a bad thing, per se, just that it does have consequences with respect to product development at Evnetics. No one can compete against "free", hence why we made a lateral shift over to the locomotive market.

With respect to the goal of doing an EV conversion, I would say most people do it for the challenge/fun of it, with "getting off oil" a secondary concern. And in many cases the primary motivation is to obtain a uniquely exhilarating driving experience on par with a Pagani Zonda or Bugatti Veyron, but for around 1/10th the cost; there really is nothing quite like having massive torque from 0 rpm.

The people whose goal it is to save money are, for the most part, completely deluded and destined for disappointment. They make up the bulk of the people that, as you say:



nimblemotors said:


> ...built $50,000 EVs,
> and then could not sell them for $5,000?


And in those cases 99% of the reason they can't sell them for what they put into them is because they didn't document a damn thing they did, meaning repair/troubleshooting is difficult to nigh impossible for the next owner, and, frankly, the workmanship leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when the goal was to save money by not buying gas. I just cringe whenever I see someone say they want to convert a 90's era jalopy with some Sam's Club lead-acid batteries and a Curtis golf cart controller.

Conversely, I cheer on every crazy sunuvabitch that wants to make an electric rock crawler or time attack competitor or simply breathe new life into a classic like, for example, steelneck's Ford Granada conversion.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> ...Evnetics looks a lot like Lancair, except Tesseract has a better personality.


Sheesh, if I have a better personality than the guy behind Lancair then he must be a real a-hole...


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Correct, EV vendors (product manufacturers, etc.) are not charities, but in some cases they have to compete against what are effectively charities in all but name. By this I mean open source hardware, hacked OEM products and products from bankrupt companies that would otherwise be unusable if certain gifted programmers didn't do all kinds of work to make them usable... I'm not saying the aforementioned is a bad thing, per se, just that it does have consequences with respect to product development at Evnetics. No one can compete against "free", hence why we made a lateral shift over to the locomotive market.


Yes, unfortunately the current large push toward the use of OEM surplus, salvage, auction hardware means that traditional EV vendors now must compete against items that were sold at or below cost. Obviously this is not a viable business strategy for a traditional vendor. 

I would imagine that this situation has caused at least some of the EV companies not to pursue any AC motor controllers because there is no competing against the hacked OEM hardware. This is most certainly am adverse side effect. It is interesting to note that this effect seems to be somewhat unique. Open source hardware has existed for a while. You can use Johannes' AC motor controller or Paul Holmes' DC controller via open plans and code. There is quite a bit of open source hardware and software for EV use. I don't think that they have had the same effect as the hacking of OEM hardware.

So, it's a brave new world I suppose. There are pluses and minuses to the new prevalence of hacked hardware. Now the doors are flung open and there isn't any putting the genie back in the bottle. I wonder both how the existing vendor space will cope and how the OEMs will view these endeavors. Will Nissan, GM, Tesla, et al ignore the hacking or do something to stop it?


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

I support this motion.

The future is not someone using a Leaf motor outside of a Leaf. The future is when a Leaf owner replaces their drive train with one from a high performance EV supply house to make it perform better.

I have only been interested in salvaging OEM components since I started this hobby. The value of these components is awesome. I don't think component supply will be a problem for such a small DIY market. Toyota sold over a million hybrids last year with a whole set of components including high power inverters and motors , 12V dc converters, electric compressors for air conditioning, battery contactors and fuses, electric power steering, etc.

I was surprised when I got a glimpse at what one supplier of prismatic cells was quoting for a large quantity of cells direct from their factory. I didn't know there was such a mark up for us DIYers.

I am all for the OEM component hacking. The CAN message deciphering is only the tip of the iceberg. We may even be able to bypass the firmware in some cases with a custom controllers that could actually hot rod or exceed the OEM performance with their same components. True EV hotrodding could be a business model that some EV component suppliers may consider.

I like the possibility of the hacking resulting in a more open source automobile architecture with alternative after market EV components and options.

Regards
Jeff


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CKidder said:


> ...Open source hardware has existed for a while. You can use Johannes' AC motor controller or Paul Holmes' DC controller via open plans and code. There is quite a bit of open source hardware and software for EV use. I don't think that they have had the same effect as the hacking of OEM hardware.


There's no way to sugar coat this so I won't: the reason the open source controllers and chargers aren't much of a threat to the commercially produced stuff for the DIY market is that they are of much lower design quality and/or functionality (Kelly - and now defunct companies such as Logisystems - excepted). 

In contrast, the OEM components might actually be (or, at least, perceived to be) much better in quality and functionality than what Evnetics or Manzanita Micro, etc., can produce, and if those OEM components can be had for pennies on the dollar and are usable as a result of some intrepid programmer's hacking, well, it doesn't take a Harvard MBA to see this as being a Very Bad Thing for the existing DIY component manufacturers.




jddcircuit said:


> ...True EV hotrodding could be a business model that some EV component suppliers may consider...


Yes, this is a potential market, but few will want to void their factory warranty so this is a few years off yet, and even then I don't see too many people wanting to hot-rod a Leaf or an I-MiEV or a Spark.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Tesseract said:


> Yes, this is a potential market, but few will want to void their factory warranty so this is a few years off yet, and even then I don't see too many people wanting to hot-rod a Leaf or an I-MiEV or a Spark.


Uh, no. That was the FIRST thing I wanted to do to the wife's TDI Golf. Brought it home, replaced the tires (for a grand) at 300 miles, went gaga on corners. Next was a winterfront which made VWoA rather annoyed and led to threats of warranty exclusion and lawyers. Working on a fuel filter to prevent grenadeing the engine when the fuel pump goes. The list continues.........but it is her car.

You betcha I want to hot rod a leaf. First is more batteries.

Jah, Lance is a joy to behold


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

The U.S. has a long tradition of people like piotrsko hacking cars, from changing out engines, transmissions, rear ends, and beefing up brakes to modifying body style as well as just finding a cheap engine at a junk yard and modifying engine mounts to replace a different blown one and keep a daily driver on the road. People have also experimented with adding hydrogen generators to increase their mpg, and converted pickups to run on natural gas decades ago. That’s why there are thousands of auto parts stores in business to sell to people repairing and modifying their vehicles. 

That’s the tradition in cars, but not in electronics. Not many people repair or modify their TV or stereo because they don’t have the required knowledge. Ev’s are vehicles with lots of electronics, so which tradition will they follow? I’m guessing there are some people with the interest and knowledge to follow the vehicle hacking tradition, and the number of people with that knowledge will increase over time as it did with ice vehicles. 

As to the danger of battery packs…how many have been killed or badly burned by gas fires or explosions on ice vehicles they were working on? That doesn’t stop the rest of us, we just shrug and say they should have known better or been more careful. I expect it will be the same with evs.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Seems to me the significant drop in DIY EV building is a direct result of OEM EVs. As I said most people want to get off OIL, and an OEM EV does that, whereas before building your own was the only choice.

So the market for DIY EVs is transitioning to those who want custom cars.
I think that is a MUCH smaller market. Cars are not what they used to be. Many kids don't even want to drive them today, my son and daughter thinks 
driving a car, even an EV, is not 'green'.

e-bikes and e-scooters is where its at for the next generation.

In any case, people in business have to evaluate the market and the risk/reward, seems clear to me the DIY EV market was full of OEM hacking, Free, Liquidations before Jack Rickard starting talking about it,
which I gather is the reason for this discussion.


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

Has anybody heard of someone removing all of the components from a Leaf and shoehorning them into a different vehicle? There would be no 'hacking' involved, just that the body panels and interior has changed...

How much would that cost? It sounds like an interesting experiment, but not something that you could recommend that everyone does. Well, in 15-20 years, what happens when there are quite a few Leafs and Teslas headed for the junkyards... You might need to buy the next generation of battery, but how much will the components be worth compared to how much a current kit costs?

I do like my components that I bought that are not from the big OEMs though. They are easier to figure out. But there are some problems compared to the whole system that OEMs have spent lots of time fine tuning. The 3rd party vendors could have saved me a lot of time by selling pre-assembled components instead of pieces. Like J1772 connector + charger pre-wired, Controller + Contactor + Brake Relay + Key Relay + Fuses all in one box, Maybe even gauges should come with the motor.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Caps18 said:


> Has anybody heard of someone removing all of the components from a Leaf and shoehorning them into a different vehicle? There would be no 'hacking' involved, just that the body panels and interior has changed...


I'm in serious consideration of doing just that. 



> How much would that cost? It sounds like an interesting experiment, but not something that you could recommend that everyone does.


Currently, I am seeing totaled Leafs going for anywhere from about $5k to over $10k depending on the year, damage, and location.

There are some things that I won't use from the Leaf, if I actually go that route. They use a drive by wire system that I have no interest in and their brake system sounds a little hard to use, too. I'm really hoping to take a shot at it, though, and see what I can actually use. Of course, this may be way over my head, too. 

B


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

The following link is one that made me think it would be possible to "transplant" the heart of a Leaf into something else. If they can make it run on a peg board, it should run in another car body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McvDjpdcBw0

B


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Tesseract said:


> Yes, this is a potential market, but few will want to void their factory warranty so this is a few years off yet, and even then I don't see too many people wanting to hot-rod a Leaf or an I-MiEV or a Spark.


 He,he after eating dust of my mothers Suzuki Alto I would certainly like to improve the higher speed acceleration of the Nissan Leaf (which was supposed to have 30 KW more Power). Working on it, seems their control box is fore some reason limiting the power....(?)


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