# [EVDL] looking for coil springs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Check out some of the forums for lifting and off-roading subarus. I think
that some of the newer outback springs can be substituted in for higher ride
height (or same ride height with more weight, in your case). But, I cannot
remember the details of exactly what fits what....

Z



> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I was trying to avoid having to buy a custom spring.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Go to your local salvage yard with one of your springs
or a good tape measure?
Maybe call around first?


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs

Check out some of the forums for lifting and off-roading subarus. I
think
that some of the newer outback springs can be substituted in for higher
ride
height (or same ride height with more weight, in your case). But, I
cannot
remember the details of exactly what fits what....

Z



> m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I was trying to avoid having to buy a custom spring.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very simple to do.

Go to your local spring shop with your specs. and have them look up the 
spring rate and data for that spring. You should also know what the weight 
is per wheel on that car would be.

Choose the size spring for that weight and a percentage more for your rig.

This is what I did. My weight on the rear springs, was 2320 lbs per wheel. 
The spec book recommended a spring rate of a minimum of 2600 lbs for normal 
acceleration and up to 3500 lbs thrust rate.

Also I had to up grade the axle diameter to 2.25 inch diameter with 3 inch 
double roller bearings for a 4000 lbs thrust rate.

The tires should also be rated for the maximum load rating at the approved 
PSI rating for that load.

You don't have to do all these mods at the same time. I ran the EV first 
with a set of Monroe Air Shocks. Then replace the axles when they worn out, 
and replace the tires when needed.

If every thing is just right, you should be able to push your EV with your 
finger.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "m gol" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:06 AM
Subject: [EVDL] looking for coil springs


> I was trying to avoid having to buy a custom spring.
>
> I'm converting a 92 Subaru Loyale Wagon.
>
> It has coil springs that are ID:2.5, OD: 3.44, 7/16 wire and 8 coils.
> Total length is 12".
>
> This seems to be a popular size.
>
> Anyone know if there was another car made that had a stiffer
> spring...possible get one in a salvage yard?
>
> thanks
>
> Mike Golub
> Alaska
> _______________________________________________
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Number of coils or length has nothing to do with spring rate (weight per 
inch or cm of compression)

1.) measure the free lengths (removed from the car) as some springs have 
pre-compression even when the wheels are of the ground.

2.) measure the compressed length with your typical weight

3.) Scale the load on the wheel with the typical weight

4.) calculate the spring rate (free length- compressed length/ weight)

Once you know the spring rate you can shop for springs, you can also "pre 
load" any spring that is the no load off the car length can be MUCH MUCH longer 
and when you do this you can compensate for any additional load and still get 
the same ride quality as OEM.

pre compression can be achieved with longer spring or with "spacer" that 
lifts the vehicle, this can be even done on struts (with donut spacer).

Miro
_OKA AUTO USA_ (http://www.okaauto.com/) 
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto


> wrote:
> >Number of coils or length has nothing to do with spring rate (weight per
> >inch or cm of compression)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact that different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can have mechanically identical springs (same number of coils, wire diameter and lenght and coil diameter) and have ratio difference of as much as 1:25 or even 1:50 that is 50 times MORE weight for the same deflection.

So spring rate is the ONLY consideration for ride height and handling adjustment due to change in load (i.e. adding batteries), all the other stuff has to do with resonant frequencies, and interaction with shocks and the unsprung weight.

If you'd ever driven on a typical Russian Country Road in a Russian car, you would appreciate the lessons learned from real life experience that teh West never needed to learn.? Go over a speed bump or rail road crossing at 60 MPH in a Corvette and you will cause a serious damage.

In an OKA you will not even spil the drink in the optional cup holder !

Yet look at the suspension and all you see is coil spring, anti roll bar and shock absorber, nothing magical, just PERFECTLY matched to the car and its use.

And the starting point for the design is the Curb weight, then the ride height with and without load.

The original question was about what to do wihoutresorting to "custom" springs or suspension re-design.

My recomendation was a "spacer" or combination of spacer and pre-load.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 9:06 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto


> wrote:
> >Number of coils or length has nothing to do with spring rate (weight per
> >inch or cm of compression)
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is the issue...



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact that different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can [snip]
> > At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Regardless of the alloy, the modulus of elasticity (stiffness) of steel is 
30x10^6 psi. The type of steel only determines the amount of stress that 
leads to yielding or failure. In other words the spring rate is not 
dependent of the type of steel used.

Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs


> You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact that 
> different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can have 
> mechanically identical springs (same number of coils, wire diameter and 
> lenght and coil diameter) and have ratio difference of as much as 1:25 or 
> even 1:50 that is 50 times MORE weight for the same deflection.
>
> So spring rate is the ONLY consideration for ride height and handling 
> adjustment due to change in load (i.e. adding batteries), all the other 
> stuff has to do with resonant frequencies, and interaction with shocks and 
> the unsprung weight.
>
> If you'd ever driven on a typical Russian Country Road in a Russian car, 
> you would appreciate the lessons learned from real life experience that 
> teh West never needed to learn.? Go over a speed bump or rail road 
> crossing at 60 MPH in a Corvette and you will cause a serious damage.
>
> In an OKA you will not even spil the drink in the optional cup holder !
>
> Yet look at the suspension and all you see is coil spring, anti roll bar 
> and shock absorber, nothing magical, just PERFECTLY matched to the car and 
> its use.
>
> And the starting point for the design is the Curb weight, then the ride 
> height with and without load.
>
> The original question was about what to do wihoutresorting to "custom" 
> springs or suspension re-design.
>
> My recomendation was a "spacer" or combination of spacer and pre-load.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 9:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs
>
>
>
> At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto


> > wrote:
> >>Number of coils or length has nothing to do with spring rate (weight per
> >>inch or cm of compression)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What makes it even funnier is that his attempt to bail himself out of 
the blooper is ALSO completely incorrect. <LOL ROTFL>

The modulus of elasticity of all steel alloys that you might use to 
make a spring are ALL 30 mpsi. Variations in the steel metallurgy 
make _absolutely_ _no_ _difference_ in the spring constant. That is 
why the spring calculator I referenced does not require that you 
enter any information about the steel alloy you have selected.

It is complete and utter BS that the steel metallurgy would make a 
difference of 125% etc. When I read "50 times more weight for the 
same deflection" I rolled up my pants, because it was getting so deep 
to save my shoes. 

Of course, if you made the spring out of some composite or exotic 
metal (like tungsten or titanium) you would need to enter the 
modulus, but we were talking about finding the right spring for your 
conversion in the junkyard, not making new suspension for the space shuttle.

Bill Dube'

At 08:25 PM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>Here is the issue...
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact
> > that different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can [snip]
> > > At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

<snip>
> So spring rate is the ONLY consideration for ride height and handling adjustment due to change in load (i.e. adding batteries), all the other stuff has to do with resonant frequencies, and interaction with shocks and the unsprung weight.
<snip>

err. and the preload. you can support a 1000 lb corner weight with 1" deflection on a 1000# rate spring or 2" deflection on a 500" lb spring.

This is important because when you hit a bump the spring rate combined with the dampening rate of the shocks is resisted by the weight, primarily determines ride quality.

We who lowered our mini-trucks by using short stiff springs discovered that keeping the wheel on the ground in a bumpy situation is much more difficult. (Drop spindles were the better answer)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Regardless of the alloy, the modulus of elasticity (stiffness) of 
> steel is 30x106 psi. The type of steel only determines the amount of 
> stress that leads to yielding or failure. In other words the spring 
> rate is not dependent of the type of steel used.
>
> Darrin Brunk Pensacola, FLA 

But we are not loading in tension, we are loading in torsional shear. 
Alloying will effect the shear modulus, won't it? (it has been a few 
years, i would have to go look it up)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Apparently Russians have discovered something that did not make it to the West yet !

I can tell you from experience that when we have loaded OKA with 452 extra pounds of lead batteries in the back (behind the back seat so it is completely extra weight on the rear axle).

The Rear suspension was on its rubber stops.? 8 coil spring designed to support 220 lbs load per wheel for normal ICE car.

No problem, one e-mail to spring manufacturer with data I have already described and one pair of identical looking springs (so much so that they have to make YELLOW dot on the coil so we can tell them appart + 1 inch extra "spacer" and the car now has identical ride height as OEM ICE plus with even 4 people in it rides the same (no sagging of the back).

The coils are the same, the lenght the same, spring rate quite different, but by now I consider this knowledge so proprietary that I will not tell you what it is (as seems it is yet unknown in the West, so technically it is a trade secret).

When I inquired myself as to how it is possible that idential looking (even the weight of the spring is only 25 gram difference) has totally different spring rate, I was told it is of different alloy metalurgy.? And that they have capability of 1:50 ratio for the particular spring design, the reason why they control the spring rate is because the machinery to make them is set and 750,000 Russian made cars annually?have used the same spring for last 26 years, and each of the 35 different models in 42 versions has the SAME spring, (looks the same) but it performs differently, they even have a "progressive rate" springs that have the same coil structure, but defect more initially only to get stiffer as they compress !

No theory or junk yeard tests, just real life experience with 452 extra lb in back of 1275 lb car.

Yes it was very expensive, the OEM springs cost $4.75 US each and the custom ones were about $18 US. 

When you make 750,000 * 4 = 3 million of the same thing annually for 26 years prices are almost reasonable and suddenly 42 vesions of the same spring are possible, not theoreticaly but practically - so how on Earth do they do this ?? 

Perhaps they reverse engineered the alien spacecraft that was captured in Siberia (Tunguska Blast).

(LADA, GAZ, OKA, NIVA, KAMAZ all use the "same" spring yet OKA is a mini car and KAMAZ a heavy duty Truck, about?15 times more load on the "same" spring !!!!)


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



What makes it even funnier is that his attempt to bail himself out of 
the blooper is ALSO completely incorrect. <LOL ROTFL>

The modulus of elasticity of all steel alloys that you might use to 
make a spring are ALL 30 mpsi. Variations in the steel metallurgy 
make _absolutely_ _no_ _difference_ in the spring constant. That is 
why the spring calculator I referenced does not require that you 
enter any information about the steel alloy you have selected.

It is complete and utter BS that the steel metallurgy would make a 
difference of 125% etc. When I read "50 times more weight for the 
same deflection" I rolled up my pants, because it was getting so deep 
to save my shoes. 

Of course, if you made the spring out of some composite or exotic 
metal (like tungsten or titanium) you would need to enter the 
modulus, but we were talking about finding the right spring for your 
conversion in the junkyard, not making new suspension for the space shuttle.

Bill Dube'

At 08:25 PM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>Here is the issue...
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact
> > that different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can [snip]
> > > At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Number of coils are the same?

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs

Apparently Russians have discovered something that did not make it to the
West yet !

I can tell you from experience that when we have loaded OKA with 452 extra
pounds of lead batteries in the back (behind the back seat so it is
completely extra weight on the rear axle).

The Rear suspension was on its rubber stops.? 8 coil spring designed to
support 220 lbs load per wheel for normal ICE car.

No problem, one e-mail to spring manufacturer with data I have already
described and one pair of identical looking springs (so much so that they
have to make YELLOW dot on the coil so we can tell them appart + 1 inch
extra "spacer" and the car now has identical ride height as OEM ICE plus
with even 4 people in it rides the same (no sagging of the back).

The coils are the same, the lenght the same, spring rate quite different,
but by now I consider this knowledge so proprietary that I will not tell you
what it is (as seems it is yet unknown in the West, so technically it is a
trade secret).

When I inquired myself as to how it is possible that idential looking (even
the weight of the spring is only 25 gram difference) has totally different
spring rate, I was told it is of different alloy metalurgy.? And that they
have capability of 1:50 ratio for the particular spring design, the reason
why they control the spring rate is because the machinery to make them is
set and 750,000 Russian made cars annually?have used the same spring for
last 26 years, and each of the 35 different models in 42 versions has the
SAME spring, (looks the same) but it performs differently, they even have a
"progressive rate" springs that have the same coil structure, but defect
more initially only to get stiffer as they compress !

No theory or junk yeard tests, just real life experience with 452 extra lb
in back of 1275 lb car.

Yes it was very expensive, the OEM springs cost $4.75 US each and the custom
ones were about $18 US. 

When you make 750,000 * 4 = 3 million of the same thing annually for 26
years prices are almost reasonable and suddenly 42 vesions of the same
spring are possible, not theoreticaly but practically - so how on Earth do
they do this ?? 

Perhaps they reverse engineered the alien spacecraft that was captured in
Siberia (Tunguska Blast).

(LADA, GAZ, OKA, NIVA, KAMAZ all use the "same" spring yet OKA is a mini car
and KAMAZ a heavy duty Truck, about?15 times more load on the "same" spring
!!!!)


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



What makes it even funnier is that his attempt to bail himself out of 
the blooper is ALSO completely incorrect. <LOL ROTFL>

The modulus of elasticity of all steel alloys that you might use to 
make a spring are ALL 30 mpsi. Variations in the steel metallurgy 
make _absolutely_ _no_ _difference_ in the spring constant. That is 
why the spring calculator I referenced does not require that you 
enter any information about the steel alloy you have selected.

It is complete and utter BS that the steel metallurgy would make a 
difference of 125% etc. When I read "50 times more weight for the 
same deflection" I rolled up my pants, because it was getting so deep 
to save my shoes. 

Of course, if you made the spring out of some composite or exotic 
metal (like tungsten or titanium) you would need to enter the 
modulus, but we were talking about finding the right spring for your 
conversion in the junkyard, not making new suspension for the space shuttle.

Bill Dube'

At 08:25 PM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>Here is the issue...
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact
> > that different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can [snip]
> > > At 04:16 PM 1/13/2009, Okaauto
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> OKAauto wrote:
> >The coils are the same, the lenght the same, spring rate quite different
> 
> Maybe the size of the spring is the same but the wire thickness different?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The spring rate is proportional to the 4th power of the wire (rod) 
diameter and inversely proportional to the 3rd power of the total 
length of the wire (rod). Trim off a bit of length and add just a 
tiny extra wire diameter and the spring will look _close_ to the same 
(and perhaps weigh the same) but have a very different spring rate.

This is not "magic" or some great mystery or some trade secret. It is 
very basic mechanical engineering. Measure the spring dimensions very 
carefully. then enter the numbers in this calculator, and it will 
give you the spring rate.

http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm

I suppose if you resolutely deny that the number of coils doesn't 
matter, and that the diameter doesn't matter, then your only 
alterative you have to explain changes in spring rate is "magic metal."

The typical method for making a variable-rate spring is to form the 
coils in a way that they become "inactive" as you compress the 
spring. You can do this by closely-spacing the coils near the top 
and/or bottom. Once one or more of the coils touch each other, the 
spring rate increases because the effective wire (rod) length decreases.

Again, not magic or proprietary, just basic mechanical engineering.

Bill Dube'


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General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you may have a bunch of extra springs laying around and have been 
useing an expensive spacer.

Stub





> [email protected] wrote:
> > No problem, one e-mail to spring manufacturer with data I have
> > already described and one pair of identical looking springs (so much
> > so that they have to make YELLOW dot on the coil so we can tell them
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You're probably referring to this:

http://www.magicmetals.com/




> Bill Dube wrote:
> >
> >
> > I suppose if you resolutely deny that the number of coils doesn't
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nope.

All steel, and I'll repeat that, ALL STEEL has essentially the same shear
modulus - and it is solely the shear modulus that determines the material
stiffness in a coil spring. The steel used for fenders, the steel used for
springs, the steel used for bed frames, etc. even cast iron, all have the
same shear modulus.

Some stainless steels have a SLIGHTLY lower G ( shear modulus) than other
spring steels, but even that is only a 1 or 2 percent difference. And, as
far as I know, no one uses stainless steel for car springs.

Even other metals ( that are never used for vehicle coil springs) have
moduli similar to steel. Copper, for instance, is about 65% as stiff as
steel in shear. A factor of 50 difference, as you suggest, is nonsense,
unless you're making coil springs out of PVC.

Phil Marino




> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact that
> > different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can have mechanically
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Same everything except the coil for NEV is 25 grams lighter !

coils, diameter, wire diameter, lenght all same as the OEM ICE spring but it supports 500 lbs more than OEM spring with additional 1 inch spacer collar (between spring top end and the body mount).


Number of coils are the same?




-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:26 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



Number of coils are the same?

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs

Apparently Russians have discovered something that did not make it to the
West yet !

I can tell you from experience that when we have loaded OKA with 452 extra
pounds of lead batteries in the back (behind the back seat so it is
completely extra weight on the rear axle).

The Rear suspension was on its rubber stops.? 8 coil spring designed to
support 220 lbs load per wheel for normal ICE car.

No problem, one e-mail to spring manufacturer with data I have already
described and one pair of identical looking springs (so much so that they
have to make YELLOW dot on the coil so we can tell them appart + 1 inch
extra "spacer" and the car now has identical ride height as OEM ICE plus
with even 4 people in it rides the same (no sagging of the back).

The coils are the same, the lenght the same, spring rate quite different,
but by now I consider this knowledge so proprietary that I will not tell you
what it is (as seems it is yet unknown in the West, so technically it is a
trade secret).

When I inquired myself as to how it is possible that idential looking (even
the weight of the spring is only 25 gram difference) has totally different
spring rate, I was told it is of different alloy metalurgy.? And that they
have capability of 1:50 ratio for the particular spring design, the reason
why they control the spring rate is because the machinery to make them is
set and 750,000 Russian made cars annually?have used the same spring for
last 26 years, and each of the 35 different models in 42 versions has the
SAME spring, (looks the same) but it performs differently, they even have a
"progressive rate" springs that have the same coil structure, but defect
more initially only to get stiffer as they compress !

No theory or junk yeard tests, just re
al life experience with 452 extra lb
in back of 1275 lb car.

Yes it was very expensive, the OEM springs cost $4.75 US each and the custom
ones were about $18 US. 

When you make 750,000 * 4 = 3 million of the same thing annually for 26
years prices are almost reasonable and suddenly 42 vesions of the same
spring are possible, not theoreticaly but practically - so how on Earth do
they do this ?? 

Perhaps they reverse engineered the alien spacecraft that was captured in
Siberia (Tunguska Blast).

(LADA, GAZ, OKA, NIVA, KAMAZ all use the "same" spring yet OKA is a mini car
and KAMAZ a heavy duty Truck, about?15 times more load on the "same" spring
!!!!)


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



What makes it even funnier is that his attempt to bail himself out of 
the blooper is ALSO completely incorrect. <LOL ROTFL>

The modulus of elasticity of all steel alloys that you might use to 
make a spring are ALL 30 mpsi. Variations in the steel metallurgy 
make _absolutely_ _no_ _difference_ in the spring constant. That is 
why the spring calculator I referenced does not require that you 
enter any information about the steel alloy you have selected.

It is complete and utter BS that the steel metallurgy would make a 
difference of 125% etc. When I read "50 times more weight for the 
same deflection" I rolled up my pants, because it was getting so deep 
to save my shoes. 

Of course, if you made the spring out of some composite or exotic 
metal (like tungsten or titanium) you would need to enter the 
modulus, but we were talking about finding the right spring for your 
conversion in the junkyard, not making new suspension for the space shuttle.

Bill Dube'

At 08:25 PM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>Here is the issue...
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact
> > that dif
> ferent alloys have different deflections, etc. you can [snip]
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No again the springs are so "same" that they have to mark them with yellow dot paint on the coil so we can tell them appart from the OEM version !? Short of bothering to weigh them they are 25 grams less.


-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:26 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs





> OKAauto wrote:
> >The coils are the same, the lenght the same, spring rate quite different
> 
> Maybe the size of the spring is the same but the wire thickness different?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Russian progressive rate springs have the same coil spacing, but the wire diameter tapers of by about 1/3.

I know what you are describing but it is NOT the same, that is wide spacing on one end and close spacing on the other. Same wire diameter.

FIAT used even weirder technology on UNO (TURBO vesrion only) back in 1989 and you could choose from 5 different "ride qualities" as option and the springs actually had diamond like profile (fat in the middle) and also the "progressive" spring coils. 

And I actually have two sets of them.? But not much use for them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



The spring rate is proportional to the 4th power of the wire (rod) 
diameter and inversely proportional to the 3rd power of the total 
length of the wire (rod). Trim off a bit of length and add just a 
tiny extra wire diameter and the spring will look _close_ to the same 
(and perhaps weigh the same) but have a very different spring rate.

This is not "magic" or some great mystery or some trade secret. It is 
very basic mechanical engineering. Measure the spring dimensions very 
carefully. then enter the numbers in this calculator, and it will 
give you the spring rate.

http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm

I suppose if you resolutely deny that the number of coils doesn't 
matter, and that the diameter doesn't matter, then your only 
alterative you have to explain changes in spring rate is "magic metal."

The typical method for making a variable-rate spring is to form the 
coils in a way that they become "inactive" as you compress the 
spring. You can do this by closely-spacing the coils near the top 
and/or bottom. Once one or more of the coils touch each other, the 
spring rate increases because the effective wire (rod) length decreases.

Again, not magic or proprietary, just basic mechanical engineering.

Bill Dube'


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So according to you, you could make sprigns from cast iron or copper, well then go ahead and try it perhaps at best you get ONE bounce !!!

Now who is peddling nonsense !!!

We are talking about spring action and ability to recover to original shape after compression not about shearing someting.....

It is far more believble to me to take what I was told by Russian manufacturer of springs (over 5 million of them annually and 3 million of them made for real cars) as why it is so, than theoretical nonsense that proclaims cast iron to be identical to spring steel !!!

And all this negative once again discussion was started with a legitimate question from someone who wanted different spring, whithout having any idea what he has NOW (spring rate) and (applied load) and to change it into someting else without knowing the additional weight thus the necessary NEW spring rate to keep the vehicle "level" with the extra battery load.

The initial more than idiotical advice (dare I say stupid) was to go to junk yeard with tape measure and to count the number of coils on another spring !

Sure a very scientific and technical answer perhaps worthy of the next Nobel Prix for Mechanics (or would it be for Peace ?)


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Marino <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 2:29 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



Nope.

All steel, and I'll repeat that, ALL STEEL has essentially the same shear
modulus - and it is solely the shear modulus that determines the material
stiffness in a coil spring. The steel used for fenders, the steel used for
springs, the steel used for bed frames, etc. even cast iron, all have the
same shear modulus.

Some stainless steels have a SLIGHTLY lower G ( shear modulus) than other
spring steels, but even that is only a 1 or 2 percent difference. And, as
far as I know, no one uses stainless steel for car springs.

Even other metals ( that are never used for vehicle coil springs) have
moduli similar to steel. Copper, for instance, is about 65% as stiff as
steel in shear. A factor of 50 difference, as you suggest, is nonsense,
unless you're making coil springs out of PVC.

Phil Marino




> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > You seem to forget all about spring steel metalurgy and the fact that
> > different alloys have different deflections, etc. you can have mechanically
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK,
What I hear is that it has the same wire, the same amount of turns, spacer
on the end. Big clue I just heard is that on one end the coils are close
together. This sounds like a variable rate spring. A variable rate spring
compresses the coils close to each other until they touch thus taking coils
out of the spring. You might have a total of 10 coils but 4 of them touch
each other thus now only having the rate of 6 turns. The spacer gets you the
needed extra height so that the body is at the correct height. 

Are we getting closer?

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs

The Russian progressive rate springs have the same coil spacing, but the
wire diameter tapers of by about 1/3.

I know what you are describing but it is NOT the same, that is wide spacing
on one end and close spacing on the other. Same wire diameter.

FIAT used even weirder technology on UNO (TURBO vesrion only) back in 1989
and you could choose from 5 different "ride qualities" as option and the
springs actually had diamond like profile (fat in the middle) and also the
"progressive" spring coils. 

And I actually have two sets of them.? But not much use for them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 1:04 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] looking for coil springs



The spring rate is proportional to the 4th power of the wire (rod) 
diameter and inversely proportional to the 3rd power of the total 
length of the wire (rod). Trim off a bit of length and add just a 
tiny extra wire diameter and the spring will look _close_ to the same 
(and perhaps weigh the same) but have a very different spring rate.

This is not "magic" or some great mystery or some trade secret. It is 
very basic mechanical engineering. Measure the spring dimensions very 
carefully. then enter the numbers in this calculator, and it will 
give you the spring rate.

http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm

I suppose if you resolutely deny that the number of coils doesn't 
matter, and that the diameter doesn't matter, then your only 
alterative you have to explain changes in spring rate is "magic metal."

The typical method for making a variable-rate spring is to form the 
coils in a way that they become "inactive" as you compress the 
spring. You can do this by closely-spacing the coils near the top 
and/or bottom. Once one or more of the coils touch each other, the 
spring rate increases because the effective wire (rod) length decreases.

Again, not magic or proprietary, just basic mechanical engineering.

Bill Dube'


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> This thread seems to be degenerating into namecalling and defensive 
> scrapping. It's already served its purpose, I think. Let's end it 
> now, please.

Agreed! It gets awfully tiresome when someone requires us to stoop to 
crotch height to hear what he's saying. Talking from that orifice is 
the natural progression of selling a line of bull.


Think more
Talk less
Become wise

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This thread seems to be degenerating into namecalling and defensive 
scrapping. It's already served its purpose, I think. Let's end it now, 
please.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One counter intuitive thing about springs. The more coils per length the softer. I found springs on larger cars that were the same size roughly as my conversion. That worked OK and cost nearly nothing. However I changed from 19 batteries in the rear of my conversion & went to eight. I had a SUV height rear bumper. I'm going EVen lighter with a new pack so those springs will have to go. I'm going to try the stock front springs in the rear. Lawrence Rhodes.....
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