# [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why did you not correct the problem while you worked on it?
If there is another driver one day (the savy driver's wife
or child or...) then the overheating goes undetected until
it is too late...
I like to have a car without boobytraps... =



Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Steve Clunn
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 5:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

I worked on a hot water system in a car done by another company that had no=
thermal cut off switch. So if the water got too hot, or if there wasn't a=
ny water in the system, or if the pump stopped working
for any reason (which it had) I could foresee some problems.
Luckily for me, the owner, a pretty savy guy, and I explained the problem t=
o him, and he understands that if he doesn't feel heat, and sees 12 to 40 a=
mps on the meter, he better turn off the heater ...
quick.


> I had my ceramic heater flame. I had it in the dash but the dash wa=
s =

>not
in the car at the time. Not sure if something shorted but thank goodness=
I had a fire extinguisher close by or I would have been replacing the whol=
e dash. I had pics on my websites but cox.net has done away with persona=
l websites. Burned a hole in the element and then fried the wires.<

This might have been an arc from a brake in the circuit . If you have never=
seen a dc arc with over 100v then you should do a little test .
Use some load so you don't get more that a few amp ( like a heater
element) and hold one wire close or strike like a match . You will get
quite an arc. Its impressive and will make you wonder how any relay
could work on dc . Another thought on the heaters is to install am anderson=
50 plug inside ( with rubber a cover) and not have the heater installed at=
all in the dash ... A box with a fan and Randy's
(Can-EV) element or what ever is handy . You are going to have to drop the=
hi dc down to run the fan or get the 12v from the Aux. You will have No d=
efroster but maybe with the car warm that will be ok,,,,

(A Floridians Advice on Heaters)
Steve
772-971-0533
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 29 Dec 2011 at 8:51, Steve Clunn wrote:
> > Another thought on the heaters is to install am anderson 50 plug inside
> > ( with rubber a cover) and not have the heater installed at all in the
> > dash
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mark Grasser wrote:
> > Ceramic heat vs hot water heat... I am wondering how one could be more
> efficient than the other.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill Dube wrote
> 
> On paper, it may seem simpler to keep the heater core and "simply" 
> circulate hot water through it. The reality is that it is easier and 
> cheaper to dig into the dash and replace the hearer core with a 
> ceramic element. 

Highly vehicle dependent. Some vehicles the heater core access is a
nightmare.


Bill Dube wrote
> 
> It is also considerably more energy efficient to use 
> the ceramic direct-air heating. The heater draws a significant amount 
> of power, so you care about the efficiency because the range takes a 
> hit if the heater is inefficient. Running a ceramic heater uses about 
> the same energy as driving the car at ~7 mph, so you really care 
> about heating system efficiency. 

Considerably more efficient? An insulated tank and hoses should have minor
losses.


Bill Dube wrote
> 
> Dealing with the circulating water is the main issue. The 12 volt 
> pump capable of reliably circulating near-boiling water is alone more 
> expensive than the ceramic heating element. Then you have to buy the 
> tank heater too, and the reservoir. If the system leaks, (which it 
> inevitably will,) the tank heater runs dry and the element catches 
> fire. You also have to mount the pump and the tank heater and the 
> reservoir. It also is slow to heat up.

I put the circulating pump before the heating element and after the heater
core so the water is no longer boiling hot. If it is then your flow rate is
too high or your air flow is too low, the point is to extract the heat. Not
sure why leaks are inevitable, most ICE systems are free from leaks for most
of their lives. Depending on water volume in the system heating time is
pretty fast, not as fast as direct ceramic of course, but faster than an
ICE. On the other hand you can build a larger volume system and use the
mass in conjunction with preheating from the grid to lower your traveling
power draw. I can preheat my car and stay comfortable on a 10 mile trip
without using any battery power in 35+ weather.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All understood. If the heating element were put into a small 1 gallon
aluminum tank, used a small high temp pump, used a PWM controller run by a
thermister, and created an insulated cover around it all you would have very
quick heat, probably less than a minute. For sure by the end of the block. A
lot easier than pulling a dashboard out and hacking up a plastic heating
system. Throw in a thermal switch and a high voltage really like the ones
Lee uses on his balancers and you would also have redundancy.

Bottom line is, you do it your way and I will do it my way.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 11:25 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)



> Mark Grasser wrote:
> > Ceramic heat vs hot water heat... I am wondering how one could be more
> efficient than the other.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark, Sounds to me you just described a MES DEA R4 from Metric Mind. If they would only continue to work. Al Swackhammer www.evalbum.com/2430




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > All understood. If the heating element were put into a small 1 gallon
> > aluminum tank, used a small high temp pump, used a PWM controller run by a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Went and looked at the MES DEA R4, expensive at $600.00, my opinion of
course. I am curious, at 158 degrees F it isn't going to heat much. Typical
ICE runs at 200 to 210 degrees F.


Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Al Swackhammer
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)

Mark, Sounds to me you just described a MES DEA R4 from Metric Mind. If
they would only continue to work. Al Swackhammer www.evalbum.com/2430




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > All understood. If the heating element were put into a small 1 gallon
> > aluminum tank, used a small high temp pump, used a PWM controller run by a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark, I agree. 158 degrees was never real warm. Thank goodness I installed seat heaters. But now that the brains of it have quit, I was told by Metric Mind that it is not serviceable. So I am in the process in an attempt to use the elements inside using a Albright contactor and thermostat to turn on and off. It has a nice pump and insulated tank. I hope I can make it work. Al




> Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > Went and looked at the MES DEA R4, expensive at $600.00, my opinion of
> > course. I am curious, at 158 degrees F it isn't going to heat much. Typical
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just finished installing a RM4 in my Honda del Sol a few weeks ago. I
think it heats up quite well. I find it blows hot enough air that I have to
temper it (slightly) with cold air at the heater controls. It also heats up
pretty quickly. I'm getting warmish air out within a couple minutes and
very warm within a couple more minutes. (3 kw model). I could take precise
measurements if anyone likes.

The only thing I'm thinking of doing different: I used the dash AC switch
to control the heater control and the circulating pump. I could save energy
and raise the efficiency if I could turn off the heater but still circulate
the hot water. I would turn off the heater half-way to work. I just need
to find another switch or put in a timer on the heater enable.

I have the advantage that the heater came with the car (but not installed).
I don't know if I would pay full list for one, but it is working well for
me.

Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 2:25 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
> 
> Went and looked at the MES DEA R4, expensive at $600.00, my opinion of
> course. I am curious, at 158 degrees F it isn't going to heat much.
Typical ICE
> runs at 200 to 210 degrees F.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Al Swackhammer
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why conversions don't keep water heat (was: heaters)
> 
> Mark, Sounds to me you just described a MES DEA R4 from Metric Mind. If
> they would only continue to work. Al Swackhammer
> www.evalbum.com/2430
> 
> 
>


> Mark Grasser wrote:
> >
> > > All understood. If the heating element were put into a small 1 gallon
> > > aluminum tank, used a small high temp pump, used a PWM controller run
> ...


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