# [EVDL] contactor configuration



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In the EV I just bought, it has one main contactor. It is on the 
positive side of the pack going to the controller. It gets actuated when 
the accelerator pedal gets pressed. ie. its connected to the "0" 
position on the pot box switch. This makes it click on and off every 
time you let off the pedal and press it again. I find it annoying. Isnt 
that bad for the controller (Auburn Kodiak) to remove and apply pack 
voltage so much? Is it setup that way for safety? Could I move it to be 
engaged when the car is on, and disengage when the brake pedal is 
pressed? What is "normal" operation for a single contactor setup?

Thanks
-Jon

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In the Datsun Kingcab that I converted (Kodiak controller, etc.) the 
contactor is activated by the key in the "on" position. I believe that is 
the normal configuration.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> In the EV I just bought, it has one main contactor. It is on the
> positive side of the pack going to the controller. It gets actuated when
> the accelerator pedal gets pressed. ie. its connected to the "0"
> position on the pot box switch. This makes it click on and off every
> time you let off the pedal and press it again. I find it annoying. Isnt
> that bad for the controller (Auburn Kodiak) to remove and apply pack
> voltage so much? Is it setup that way for safety? Could I move it to be
> engaged when the car is on, and disengage when the brake pedal is
> pressed? What is "normal" operation for a single contactor setup?
>
> Thanks
> -Jon
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Also, I now have some photos of the contacts in the albright sw200-3 
here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imbob_yournot/
They look bad to me, but I've never looked at contactor contacts before! 
Any expert opinions on this? Normal? Abused? Why did it get this way? 
How can it be prevented?

Thanks again!
-Jon


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is one place where I deviated from the Alltrax Schematic. They also s=
uggest having the contact turn off when you let off the peddle, to keep it =
from being hard on the controller they have a precharge resistor wired dire=
ctly across the contact. This allows the controller to always see pack vol=
tage instead of having it turn on and off, but with the contactor disengage=
d the current is limited in the 100s of milliamp range so the motor won't a=
ctually turn. I did not want the constant clickity clack of the contactor =
going on and off, so I wired mine directly to the on switch, and wired my K=
SI switch to shut off when the throttle is not engaged.

There is a slight safety benefit to having the contactor disengage when you=
r foot is lifted, but I have a number of other safety systems in place and =
did not feel it was worth the noise.

damon


> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:49:21 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] contactor configuration
>
> In the EV I just bought, it has one main contactor. It is on the
> positive side of the pack going to the controller. It gets actuated when
> the accelerator pedal gets pressed. ie. its connected to the "0"
> position on the pot box switch. This makes it click on and off every
> time you let off the pedal and press it again. I find it annoying. Isnt
> that bad for the controller (Auburn Kodiak) to remove and apply pack
> voltage so much? Is it setup that way for safety? Could I move it to be
> engaged when the car is on, and disengage when the brake pedal is
> pressed? What is "normal" operation for a single contactor setup?
>
> Thanks
> -Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It look likes the contacts are opening or braking under load. If this is 
happening, than this is normal looking after about a years use. In are 
electrical work, it is common to replace AC contactor contacts for a AC 
motor every year, because they are contacting under full load.

Contacts for a contactor in a EV, the motor controller should not be 
energized or powering the motor before the contacts close. The contactor 
should close first at no load, then the controller comes on second.

To shut down, the controller goes off first than the contactor turns off at 
no load. I have CableForm heavy duty contactors that are design for EV use 
that do not drop out no matter low the battery pack goes. They use the 
battery pack voltage instead of a 12 volt separate control voltage. My 
battery pack is 180 volt and these contactors will stay energized at 240 
volts and will not drop out until the voltage gets down to 11 volts. Will 
only come back on again only when the battery pack voltage gets above 165 
volts which is the minimum controller low voltage limit.

Normally if the battery pack drops below 165 volts, the controller will shut 
down first while the contactors will stay on.

What happens a lot of times, in using 12 volt coil contactors, is that when 
the 12 volts is lost, the contactors will drop out under load and this is 
what happens to the contactors. My contacts look like new the day in 1975 
they were put in.

If your controller does not have a circuit to turn on and off at no load, 
than some accelerator control boxes like the $600.00 CableForm does or a 
external micro switch on the $70.00 Curtis accelerator pot box has.

This micro switch is adjusted so it take 12 volt ignition power and turns on 
the main contactor directly before it activates the motor controller. In 
this way, the contactor stays on all the time, until you release the 
accelerator peddle, which first turn off the motor controller first and than 
the contactor.

Some controllers like a Zilla have a safety circuit, where if the 
accelerator linkage or spring return does not return to the complete off 
position and when the next time you turn on the ignition switch, the motor 
controller will not activated, because the pot box has to have a 0 ohms or 
certain amount of minimum ohms signal at the control.

It is also best to have a second contactor on the negative side of the 
battery as a back up safety contactor, plus it isolated the charging voltage 
that may be higher than the rating of the controller. If a battery charger 
is not isolated, you could have grounding leaks in the circuitry and arcing 
from the brush dust to the motor shaft of the motor which I had at one time.

If you have a motor controller failer, which I never had in 32 years, you 
could have a large kill switch to kill the power to contactors. This will 
cause the contacts to look like yours if you shut down under load.

My kill switches are a roll of rocker switches which are place just behind 
the console shift lever which I always have my hand on. I can sweep my hand 
back to hit any of these switches which will kill the ignition circuit which 
in turn drop out the contactors. Never had to do that yet.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:49 PM
Subject: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> In the EV I just bought, it has one main contactor. It is on the
> positive side of the pack going to the controller. It gets actuated when
> the accelerator pedal gets pressed. ie. its connected to the "0"
> position on the pot box switch. This makes it click on and off every
> time you let off the pedal and press it again. I find it annoying. Isnt
> that bad for the controller (Auburn Kodiak) to remove and apply pack
> voltage so much? Is it setup that way for safety? Could I move it to be
> engaged when the car is on, and disengage when the brake pedal is
> pressed? What is "normal" operation for a single contactor setup?
>
> Thanks
> -Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> > This is one place where I deviated from the Alltrax Schematic.
> > They suggest having the contactor turn off when you let off the pedal.
> > To keep it from being hard on the controller, they have a precharge
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> What did you do?


1. Retain the clutch. This means that in a full on event there is still a mechanical disconnect between the motor and the drivetrain. I may lose a motor, but I'm close to Jim Husted 
2. I have a circuit breaker in place and I'm considering using the old choke cable to make it manually switchable from inside the cabin so if a full on event does not make it trip it can be done manually.
3. Fuse
4. Turn off the key.

None of these are as immediate and natural as lifting the throttle foot, but the likelyhood of a full on failure at a time that requires a split second reaction is low enough that I feel I am adequately covered.

I suspect that some of you old Contactor controller fellas actually are a bit nostalgic about that noise, but it's not for me ;-)

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 27 Nov 2007 at 17:49, Jon Glauser wrote:
> 
> > Isnt that bad for the controller
> > (Auburn Kodiak) to remove and apply pack voltage so much?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> What did you do?



> Damon Henry wrote:
> > 1. Retain the clutch. This means that in a full on event there is
> > still a mechanical disconnect between the motor and the drivetrain.
> > I may lose a motor, but I'm close to Jim Husted
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's the voltage rating of the PB-6's microswitch? Can it handle 144V 
packs?

Thanks.

Bill Dennis

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you use a ev250 they are very hard to hear. It is enclosed and has
hydrogen in it to reduce arcing (finally something hydrogen is good for,
snark)
I have trouble hearing if mine pulls in when I start my zilla powered
conversion and actually have to step on the "go" pedal to see if it is
on. If I turn to start instead of turning on the ignition and letting
the vacuum pump come up, I have no hope of hearing it.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I did a similar thing, but I use an additional pack voltage relay whose coil 
voltage is derived from the controller-side of the main contactor/precharge 
resistor. This way, if the precharge isn't complete or a fault in the 
controller/motor circuit causes the precharge voltage to be pulled down, the 
relay can never close, which means the main contactor can never close.

In the event of controller short, the potbox "idle" switch will open the 
contactor if there is excessive current flow in the motor still. The 
controller side of the circuit would never come back up to prechage then, 
and the car could not be "started" again.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] contactor configuration


>>> What did you do?
>


> > Damon Henry wrote:
> >> 1. Retain the clutch. This means that in a full on event there is
> >> still a mechanical disconnect between the motor and the drivetrain.
> >> I may lose a motor, but I'm close to Jim Husted
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The ones in mine have the following ratings:
1.0A, 50VDC (85=B0C only)
0.5A, 125VDC (85=B0C only)
0.25A, 250VDC (85=B0C only)

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> What's the voltage rating of the PB-6's microswitch? Can it handle 144V
> packs?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I doubt it has Hydrogen! 

According to this interesting Kilovac article:
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/hvintro/vacuum.asp

They either use a vacuum or sulfur hexaflouride inside.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> If you use a ev250 they are very hard to hear. It is enclosed and has
> hydrogen in it to reduce arcing (finally something hydrogen is good for,
> snark)
> I have trouble hearing if mine pulls in when I start my zilla powered
> conversion and actually have to step on the "go" pedal to see if it is
> on. If I turn to start instead of turning on the ignition and letting
> the vacuum pump come up, I have no hope of hearing it.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Holy shit, I just read ALL of the manual and they do indeed put Hydrogen in 
there on some of them! Strange!

Hydrogen as a dielectric
Some other Kilovac relays use a proprietary gas mixture consisting of, 
primarily hydrogen at various atmospheres of pressure. These mixtures do not 
have the same high dielectric and low leakage current as vacuum or SF-6, so 
are not normally used for high voltage applica-tions above 3 kV, but are 
ideal for dc "make & break" load switching applications. The gas mixture, 
combined with the use of external magnets to control the direction of the 
arc, cools and extinguishes the arc in a very predictable manner. Because 
there is no oxygen in the mixture, more conductive contact materials such as 
copper can be used that provide the lowest possible contact resistance. This 
results in very small package designs. These gas mixtures & magnets combined 
with Kilovac's patented armature & contact design provide high current 
interrupt capabilities up to 3,500 A at 320 Vdc with switching capabilities 
as high as 1800 Vdc. They also provide the capability to handle highly 
inductive dc load switching.


-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> If you use a ev250 they are very hard to hear. It is enclosed and has
> hydrogen in it to reduce arcing (finally something hydrogen is good for,
> snark)
> I have trouble hearing if mine pulls in when I start my zilla powered
> conversion and actually have to step on the "go" pedal to see if it is
> on. If I turn to start instead of turning on the ignition and letting
> the vacuum pump come up, I have no hope of hearing it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> dave cover wrote:
> > Does this work with other controllers too? Zillas?
> 
> It will, though it isn't necessary for the Zilla in particular. It
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is all very interesting! I'm thinking of having a contactor tied to
the potbox with a precharge resistor, and have another contactor on the
negative side of the battery pack that is powered by the ignition switch.
Does anyone do that?

By the way, how large of a precharge resistor should I use?

-Tyler Marshall
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> By the way, how large of a precharge resistor should I use?
>
> -Tyler Marshall

Alltrax recommends a 1000 ohm 10 watt resistor for my 72 volt controller and 470 ohm resistor for the 48 volt version.

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:18:30PM -0800, (-Phil-) wrote:
> Holy shit, I just read ALL of the manual and they do indeed put Hydrogen in 
> there on some of them! Strange!
> 

no problem with hydrogen as long as no oxygen is in there too...


-- 
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http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
|

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you get a small leak after the contactor gets old, I imagine it will 
self-destruct as soon as you get a small spark in there!

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] contactor configuration


> On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:18:30PM -0800, (-Phil-) wrote:
>> Holy shit, I just read ALL of the manual and they do indeed put Hydrogen 
>> in
>> there on some of them! Strange!
>>
>
> no problem with hydrogen as long as no oxygen is in there too...
>
>
> -- 
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
> http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
> |
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> T. Marshall wrote:
> > This is all very interesting! I'm thinking of having a contactor tied to
> > the potbox with a precharge resistor, and have another contactor on the
> > negative side of the battery pack that is powered by the ignition switch.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jon Glauser wrote:
> > Also, I now have some photos of the contacts in the albright sw200-3
> > here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/imbob_yournot/
> > They look bad to me, but I've never looked at contactor contacts before!
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I could not find anything that looked like a precharge circuit in the 
car. I will have to add one before I get it on the road! Do I need new 
contacts, or will these be ok? It appears (when I checked) that buying 
replacement contacts was $15 less than buying a whole new contactor.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jon Glauser wrote:
> >
> >> Also, I now have some photos of the contacts in the albright sw200-3
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jon Glauser wrote:
> > I could not find anything that looked like a precharge circuit in the
> > car. I will have to add one before I get it on the road! Do I need
> > new contacts, or will these be ok?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,
Was it necessary to add another microswitch to the potbox to mandate a high
pedal condition for the initial power up? 


<My own EV has the main contactor wired similarly to the above, so it
doesn't clunk on/off every time I release the pedal. The circuit is a bit
more complicated because 
I latched the relay so the main contactor won't pull in again every time 
you step on the pedal with a fault present.>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Walter Guinon wrote:
> > Lee,
> > Was it necessary to add another microswitch to the potbox to mandate a high
> > pedal condition for the initial power up?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As I understand it, there is one microswitch on the PB-6 and you use one
microswitch in series with a relay coil to shut down the contactor if the
controller fails on. Do you get hi pedal lockout at initial start from this
switch too or is there another microswitch needed.



No; the microswitch is a standard option for the PB6 potbox I used.


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