# Siemens 1PV5135-4WS14 repair shaft



## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I just twisted the splined part of the shaft off my motor. Is there any way to repair this?

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

davidwillis said:


> I just twisted the splined part of the shaft off my motor. Is there any way to repair this?


You don't _just_ twist off the splined shaft. How about the rest of the story? A repair without knowing the cause of the failure is futile.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I am not sure what to tell you....

I was driving my EV (honda passport) down a canyon (paved road). I was going about 40 mph in 3rd gear. I came around a corner and there was a grader in the road. I hit full regenerative brakeing, and hit the brakes. But then when I tried to take off, the motor would just spin.

I pulled it apart today, and the shaft is sheered off just after the spline.

P.S. I was able to stop before I hit the grader in the road.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

davidwillis said:


> I am not sure what to tell you....
> 
> I was driving my EV (honda passport) down a canyon (paved road). I was going about 40 mph in 3rd gear. I came around a corner and there was a grader in the road. I hit full regenerative brakeing, and hit the brakes. But then when I tried to take off, the motor would just spin.
> 
> ...


I suppose there is a slight (call it miniscule) possibility there was some defect in the shaft from Siemens which contributed to such a failure as you describe, but I doubt it. Then, it would be impossible for the motor to produce enough torque, either from the magnetics or inertia, to snap that shaft off. Something else was working on it. You need a postmortem forensic analysis to determine the actual cause. Otherwise you're wasting time and money doing repair, IMO.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Need a picture of the fracture zone--may be able to determine if it was a fatigue failure over time due to a crack propagation, or a sudden shear failure, etc.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

The only thing I can think of would be if I somehow had my motor mounted at an angle or something... I just made a plate that bolted to my bell housing and then connected my motor to that. Since my transmission has the same splined shaft as the motor I just connected them together with a coupler... like this http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=egearcoupler

Maybe I need something that will allow some flex in case things don't line up perfectly, however I did spend a lot of time to make sure they did line up. This is how I built the plate... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OdG9Cpv2I8&list=UUO6vytYHdfCscapUvioK6yg

Once I get the motor out I will take some pictures.

However lets say we do figure out what happened, is it even possible to fix the shaft, or do I have to buy a new motor?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

It might be possible if the splined section could be aligned back along the centerline of the rotor. 

If it could be pinned or center-drilled and threaded for an alignment bolt, and then the fracture zone ground out to a vee groove in which a welder puts in layers of metal all the way around to fill the groove. Then machine the weld back down flush to the surface on a lathe. 

If the alignment could be maintained and the amount of unbalance minimized, then it might work as a patch job.???


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Can you weld on the shaft without heating the motor and bearing too much? If I can, then I could probably just weld the coupler onto the end of the shaft.

I wonder if there is any flexible type of connector I could use? I have thought about using a U joint, and maybe that is what I should use, but it would take more room, and I would have to move my motor out a little....

Any thoughts?

I have the motor separated from the transmission, but need to totally lift it out to be able to get a good picture, so it may not be for a few days. But the only thing I can think of is a slight miss alignment that would cause stress on the shaft.

I will post some pictures when I get them.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Instead of trying to find a bandaid to fix a miss alignment problem (if that is determined to be the cause) you'd be better off in the long run having a machine shop build you an adapter plate that is simply aligned properly.

I also installed the Siemens motor and using the same coupler, welded to a Porsche clutch center because I wan't lucky enough to have the splines match. I did have the adapter plate designed and made by a very capable mechanical engineer and everything slid into place without a hitch and runs very smoothly.

Did you have vibration or some sort of resonance at a certain RPM?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

davidwillis said:


> Can you weld on the shaft without heating the motor and bearing too much?


No that would not be recommended, the rotor shaft needs to be removed and the bearings taken off before welding. Even with all this work and effort it may not be a satisfactory patch due to the precision needed to align the centers.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

To get alignment. Mount dial indicator on shaft (turn with shaft) . Bolt or clamp large bearing race on adapter plate (movable adaptor or race or booth ) Spin dial/ shaft .003" runout max , pin and bolt adapter plate , recheck runout.Pin means drill and ream hole , drive locater pin . bolts alone have to much run out. Remove adaptor from motor ( leaving race on adaptor plate) .We now have the center of the motor , in the form of the race . Remove adapter plate ,transfer to transmission ,place dial on trans shaft, move plate (not race) until .003" runout max, pin and bolt. Remove dial, race and bolt motor to trans.
Most machine shops do not do this kind of work. If they can not describe this method to you leave.
As for welding only on a over built mild steel shaft. You will get some runout in the shaft . Heat effected zone will cause problems, as will the shrinkage of weld.
Ps max total runout .003"


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

This alignment technique will only work if the trans. input shaft is well supported in the trans. housing, such as with many FWD vehicles. Most input shafts on front engine, RWD vehicles (like yours?) are loosely supported inside the trans. and not usable for aligning the motor this way. They're designed to have a pilot bearing, usually in the end of the ICE crank shaft, for alignment and support. Grab the input shaft with your fingers. Try moving it side to side and up and down. If it moves at all with a few pounds of force, it's useless for trying to align the motor and you'll have to use some other technique.

Like aeroscott says, the alignment needs to be within .003"(about the thickness of a hair or two!) and is very difficult to do by feel and eye alone. Just because the parts slide together doesn't mean they are aligned. The weight of the motor, the tightening of the bolts(like a.s. says, they're not accurate enough for alignment) can all pull parts out of alignment.

Haven't seen any pics yet to check the problem but, if you don't have the skills and knowledge to properly set these parts up, you really need to buy or have made a proper adapter plate from a reputable supplier. The $800- $1000 it will cost pales in comparison to the several thousands or more a new motor costs.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I probably won't be able to get the motor out until Saturday due to work, but when I get it out I will post pictures, and check the Transmission shaft. I think it was solid, and this is a 4wd, but I will check for sure.

After thinking a little on this, I wonder if my mounting plate warped a little which got things out of alignment? The Plate is 1/4 inch steel, and there were no noises from it when I first started driving it (about 4 months ago). However about two weeks ago I started to hear a clicking sound at low speeds when coasting (there were no sounds under a load). I thought it might be the coupler sliding back and forth, but maybe it was due to the mounting plate warping, and things out of alignment.

from the comments, I am still not sure if the motor can be repaired, or if I will need to replace the entire motor..?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I was thinking about the soft shaft problem and it's solution . Not fun but you make a temporary stiff shaft. This can be as simple as jamming a stick into the 2 bearing that normally support the soft shaft. Remember it need not be true , as we are measuring a circler orbit not a center. The circle defines the center. At no time do we need the true center, just that the circle is concentric with the bearing . So we are tight /solid with the 2 transmission bearing maybe epoxied in place if needed. place the adapter/race on transmission. Shaft will need to go threw large center hole in adapter. Place the dial solidly on the temporary shaft, dial in (rotate shaft/dial)move adapter/race by moving adapter on transmission , pin and bolt(to trans) at lowest runout.Remove bearing race and temp shaft,replace trans shaft, coupling and mount motor to adapter/trans.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's the input shaft play I'm referring to:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlQGR6zQq-g 

This is completely normal for even a new transmission of this design. I'm guessing your trans. is this common design. If not, it's still the design most often used with front engine, RWD vehicles. It's a design that has 100's of millions of examples and has been produced for at least 80, maybe a hundred years. To make the trans. of this design as simple and compact as possible, the two bearings supporting the input shaft inside the trans. are very close together and one of them usually is a pretty sloppy roller bearing, resulting in this much play. BUT THAT'S OK! The lack of support is more than made up for by the pilot bearing usually located in the end of the ICE crankshaft (sometimes the center of the flywheel) when the ICE is assembled to the trans. 

Two things to remember: One, you can't use this shaft with a dial indicator to align the motor and trans. Two, although the input shaft has a lot of play on end of it, it still needs to aligned and operate within a few thousands of an inch of the motor/trans. center line to work properly. There's no flexible coupling inside the trans. on this shaft! 

We're kind of getting ahead of ourselves with this speculation. Your coupler may have slipped out of position and disengaged the splines.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks for the video. I am almost 100% sure my transmission is not like that, but once I have the motor out completely I will check to make sure.

Also I have slid the motor forward about 4 inches and can see the motor shaft. The tip with the splines on it is broke off. I really wish the coupler had just slipped off, and that is what I though may have happened until I saw the end of the shaft missing.


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## grip911 (Dec 14, 2011)

Your situation is totally repairable, you can have the face of the shaft squared up and a hole bored into the shaft with keyway to any size. an adaptor can then be machined to fit inside and welded after or not. 
You will have to take the motor apart which is fairly simple.The whole job should not cost more than 500 to fix . Make sure that you bring the broken pieces and the faceplate along with the rotor and bearing to the machinist. Let him do all the calculating.While your there you might as well get them to make a longer splined shaft or even an involuted spline to fit directly over the input shaft of the transmission.
There are electric motor repair facilities to tear the motor apart if you feel uncomfortable doing it yourself.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Most coupling problems start as concentrisity problems. In the case of the front bearing being loose roller bearing , pull the roller and put any close tolerance ball bearing in place for the alinement , when done put old bearing back in. You my be able to use the original shaft for alinement. Check the old positions when doing your alinement to see the run out that gave you the problem.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Take a look at what Anne Kloppenborge (sp?) of New Electric does to the Siemens shaft. He cuts off the spline and has a keyway cut into the remaining larger diameter shaft and has a coupler made to fit that.

Around the 5 minute mark:


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks everyone. That is good to know it is fixable... 

It looks like I will have to look around for a good machine shop thought...

I will update when I have pictures. If I get off early tonight I may be able to get it done otherwise I will have to do it on Saturday.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

@jrp3 I just saw your post. I am heading to work now, but will look at it when I get home... Thanks!!!


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I think I might really have messed things up. I have attached some pictures of the break. However after testing the shaft on the transmission, it does seem to wobble a little, and when I put this together I cut the end of it off so the coupler would connect the two shafts...

As you can see from the pictures, there are some strange wear patterns on the spline and the coupler.

I guess I could have the motor shaft turned down to put on a keyed connection like the video, but I don't have the end of the transmission shaft to fit into the inside of the shaft like he did...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Might be able to find a used transmission.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

It looks like I can get a used transmission for about $500. Is there a way to just replace the shaft?

My next challenge will be to find a machine shop that can machine the motor and get everything aligned correctly. I know there are a few machine shops around, but I don't know if any know how to do this.

What do you think the cost will be for all this?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

It's all about the alignment, and plywood templates just won't cut it. We're talking alignment within .003". The "strange" wear inside the coupling is from misalignment. As Major and others have pointed out, this causes a bending cycle on the shafts with each revolution. Remember bending a paper clip back and forth until it breaks? The forces are much greater, but the same thing can happen to the trans. and motor shafts

The trans. input shaft bearing(s) and gear(s) are probably toast anyway from the misalignment, so you'll need to replacement the trans.

I think the machine work on the motor shaft can still be done- it's just going to be trickier and more expensive. You'll need to find a machinist who's familiar with engine swaps, transmission alignment, input shaft/pilot bearing setups, etc. Once everybody is satisfied the set up is good, alignment dowels (or pins like a.s. says) needed to be fitted. Just like the OEM setup, this will allow you to take everything apart and put it back together and maintain the alignment. The one point I might differ with Anne in the video is to use a tapered bushing coupling rather than a set screw over key design.

Just to clarify, FWD to me is front wheel drive- not 4 wheel drive. Also, if there's no clutch in the set up, you should put a lot of grease or paste(like a moly lube) on the splines of the coupler to keep it lubed and rust free.

Too complex to speculate on the costs. Maybe call around to transmission repair, drive line, or race shops.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi david,

Sorry for your loss. I guess you just have to call it a lesson learned. Here's a couple of opinions from me:

Shaft repair won't work. It is possible to replace shafts in rotors, but is a service replacement shaft available? Also possible a service replacement rotor with shaft is available. But the cost of these surplus auction motors maybe be less than a replacement rotor.

You're going to need a proper adapter between the motor and tranny. See if there is one on the market somewhere which you can buy opposed to having a machine shop fabricate one. With the number of these motors hitting the marketplace from the Azure auction, and the fact that the face pilot is somewhat standard, there's a chance an adapter already exists.

You should consider replacing the tranny with a good reconditioned one. And consider keeping the clutch even if you don't use it. It may simplify the coupling and give you some degree of tolerance on alignment.

It sounded like you were pleased with your conversion before this incident, so why not fix the problem the right way and get your EV on the road again.

major


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for putting up the pictures so we could see the situation.

As was mentioned it looks like misalignment chewed up the splines, but it also looks like someone drilled and tapped a thread into the motor shaft. That weakened the shaft and introduced stress at the bottom of the hole that eventually cracked the shaft and led to the failure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The motor comes with that hole from the factory.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Maybe from Azure, but not from Siemens.

Why would anyone do that? Did Azure mount a coupling using that thread in the shaft?

What are the dimensions of that hole and thread, is it metric or sae?


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

major said:


> Hi david,
> 
> Sorry for your loss. I guess you just have to call it a lesson learned. Here's a couple of opinions from me:
> 
> ...



I was really pleased with my conversion until now. However This is starting to look like it may cost more money than I have right now. I actually spent more on this project already than I had planned on. I think my wife would kick me out if I spent several thousand more to fix this.

I might have to part out and hopefully recoup some of my losses...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

kennybobby said:


> ... but it also looks like someone drilled and tapped a thread into the motor shaft. That weakened the shaft and introduced stress at the bottom of the hole that eventually cracked the shaft and led to the failure.


Fatigue failures such as this start on the outside surface of the shaft and propagate towards the center. And the center of the shaft contributes little to the strength of the shaft. Many motors and other rotational power transmission and machines use hollow shafts or tubes.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I must say I never did understand why they took that nice beefy shaft and cut it down so small. I mean I guess they did it to match the Borg Warner Egear drive, which I suppose was cheaper than having Borg Warner make a special version of it. So I guess I do understand it, I just don't like it.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Sorry, I just added my location. I am in weston Idaho (about 30 minutes North of Logan Utah).


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## grip911 (Dec 14, 2011)

Ivansgarage;512666
I have repaired many shafts (broken) on motors before.
If the rotor shaft is at least 2 inch dia it can be bored to 1.5 inch and a new shaft (turned and inserted) welded and turned down to size.
If there was a yoke that fit the tranny spline that could be put directly
on the motor shaft..
Ivan[/QUOTE said:


> Now that`s what I`m talking about !


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Ivansgarage said:


> Where are you located (hate that when people don't have there location)
> ain't that right Major.
> 
> I have repaired many shafts (broken) on motors before.
> ...



Do you think if you connected the splined coupler directly to the rotor shaft, that would provide enough support to the transmission shaft (if it was correctly lined up)?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I sill think there's enough material on the end of the shaft to work with for a repair. Unlike this conversion with a misalignment related shaft breakage from ~5 years ago:










Anne in the video had about the same amount of material to work with as you do. It looks like he machined back the end housing, to the bearing, to expose more of the shaft.

What ever you do, You've got to deal with the misalignment issues or you'll be back here again!


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

The coupler: 
A 75 mm long involuted spline coupler 24 tooth splined shafts, 24.87 mm in diameter. The outside diamater is about 1 1/2 inches.

The Rotar size is about 1 3/4 inches in diameter.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The large disk around the shaft is the aluminum end housing of the motor! The actual shaft is the small diameter cylinder(slightly larger than the thumb) sticking out of the coupling. The shaft is broken off inside the housing , next to the motor bearing. Here's a wider shot:


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I have been reading this, but I am still not sure I understand the process... I don't see how it takes into account that the transmission shaft wobbles unless it is held in place.




aeroscott said:


> To get alignment. Mount dial indicator on shaft (turn with shaft) . Bolt or clamp large bearing race on adapter plate (movable adaptor or race or booth ) Spin dial/ shaft .003" runout max , pin and bolt adapter plate , recheck runout.Pin means drill and ream hole , drive locater pin . bolts alone have to much run out. Remove adaptor from motor ( leaving race on adaptor plate) .We now have the center of the motor , in the form of the race . Remove adapter plate ,transfer to transmission ,place dial on trans shaft, move plate (not race) until .003" runout max, pin and bolt. Remove dial, race and bolt motor to trans.
> Most machine shops do not do this kind of work. If they can not describe this method to you leave.
> As for welding only on a over built mild steel shaft. You will get some runout in the shaft . Heat effected zone will cause problems, as will the shrinkage of weld.
> Ps max total runout .003"


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

electro wrks said:


> ... The shaft is broken off inside the housing , next to the motor bearing. Here's a wider shot:


It looks like your shaft was drilled also, and broke at the bottom of the hole. Was it also tapped with threads?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

davidwillis said:


> I have been reading this, but I am still not sure I understand the process... I don't see how it takes into account that the transmission shaft wobbles unless it is held in place.


 remove the shaft (armature) and replace with shaft, anything stiff will work and it does not to be true just tight with bearing . body of dial indicator goes on the shaft (Clamped or bolted). reading on adapter plate / temporary bearing race.
shaft cannot bind bearing (armature bearing) as you rotate it. added


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

aeroscott said:


> remove the shaft (armature) and replace with shaft, anything stiff will work and it does not to be true just tight with bearing . body of dial indicator goes on the shaft (Clamped or bolted). reading on adapter plate / temporary bearing race.
> shaft cannot bind bearing (armature bearing) as you rotate it. added


This is easier said than done. AIR on most trans. of this type, you have to completely disassemble the trans. to remove the input shaft. Then fab and press in place a tight fitting, temporary bushing to replace the roller bearing to eliminate the wobble (a.s.,you have a good point-the rotational run out doesn't matter as long as most of the stationary wobble is eliminated).

Then reassemble the trans. and do the dial indicator work to locate the adapter plate. Don't forget to add locating dowels or pins like the OEM set up. Then disassemble the trans. for a second time, remove the temp. bushing, replace the roller bearing and reassemble the trans. for a second time. 

I haven't seen any trans. with the input shaft removable from the front of the trans. housing, but this would make the job a lot easier. Some trans. might have input shaft bearing set ups that make this job more difficult.

Most face mount motors have a step, machined concentric with the shaft axis, to accurately mount the motor. The adapter plate should be machined to fit this step. Also, this machined hole or step in the adapter plate is a good place to locate the plate with the dial indicator clamped on the now wobble free input shaft as described above.

This is a lot of work! And the coupling still has to made. And don't forget a provision for the pilot bearing. Somebody else has already done this work for you if you buy a quality, ready made plate and coupling.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

kennybobby said:


> It looks like your shaft was drilled also, and broke at the bottom of the hole. Was it also tapped with threads?


This is not my conversion. I'm not sure how far a threaded hole extends into the shaft. Like Major says, cracks would start on the outside and extend in to the center. The material in the center of a shaft is stressed much less than the material on the outside with a bending moment, as represented by these misalignment examples.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

electro wrks said:


> This is easier said than done. AIR on most trans. of this type, you have to completely disassemble the trans. to remove the input shaft. Then fab and press in place a tight fitting, temporary bushing to replace the roller bearing to eliminate the wobble (a.s.,you have a good point-the rotational run out doesn't matter as long as most of the stationary wobble is eliminated).
> 
> Then reassemble the trans. and do the dial indicator work to locate the adapter plate. Don't forget to add locating dowels or pins like the OEM set up. Then disassemble the trans. for a second time, remove the temp. bushing, replace the roller bearing and reassemble the trans. for a second time.
> 
> ...


 It is a lot of work , but very satisfying and no one step is that complicated. This is where the real building passion comes to the surface.
Now think of the bid to do this work for a high end machine shop.
They may not know your transmission and tools for its work.
When I changed my transmission from gertrag to newventure , the new bell housing had to be dialed to the engine . even if the bell housing came from Cummings , but this came from Advance Adapters . Many shade tree techs will say otherwise . They know better then the manual.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Would it be easier to get the alignment from the original engine? That way we would not have to replace bearings. It worked for a long time, so it must have been aligned. So If I can just duplicate its alignment?

Also I was just looking at the engine, and it mounted to the transmission with bolts only, no pins.

I have sent some e-mails out to local machine shops, but none have replied back. I don't get off work until they are all closed, but one of them is open half a day on Saturday, So I will see if I can visit them this Saturday.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

davidwillis said:


> Would it be easier to get the alignment from the original engine? That way we would not have to replace bearings. It worked for a long time, so it must have been aligned. So If I can just duplicate its alignment?Also I was just looking at the engine, and it mounted to the transmission with bolts only, no pins.



Good question about the alignment. Some photos of the trans. end of the ICE with the flywheel off would help. Also, a side view with a ruler showing how much the crankshaft sticks out, or is set back from the bell housing mounting plane would be good.

Sometimes the manufacturers have the bolt holes do double duty and have hollow dowels around the bolts. Closeups of the bolt holes would be helpful to check this out. The mating surfaces could be machined with a step to align the ICE and the trans.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I will have to take the clutch and flywheel off the ICE. Once I have it taken apart, I will take some pictures and post them.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

electro wrks said:


> Good question about the alignment. Some photos of the trans. end of the ICE with the flywheel off would help. Also, a side view with a ruler showing how much the crankshaft sticks out, or is set back from the bell housing mounting plane would be good.
> 
> Sometimes the manufacturers have the bolt holes do double duty and have hollow dowels around the bolts. Closeups of the bolt holes would be helpful to check this out. The mating surfaces could be machined with a step to align the ICE and the trans.



Looking closer at the engine, it looks like it has holes for pins, but they were not being used. Here are some pictures.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Are there any instructions on how to remove the rotor?

I have pulled the front plate off by removing the 8 large bolts, and the 4 smaller allen bolts (I am not sure how I will get those back in when I put it together).

Do I need to remove the 4 small allen bolts on the back? If I do will I be able to get them back in later?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

i think there is a small gear and encoder sensor at the rear that will need to be removed first. Then remove the front and rear covers so you can inspect the bearings. The rotor just floats on the bearings. Once open you will see how it all works and how to reassemble.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

I have been trying to figure out how to get that gear and encoder sensor off, but I don't see how to get to it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe post up some pics. Might want to try to contact Anne at New Electric and ask him how he did it.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

davidwillis said:


> Looking closer at the engine, it looks like it has holes for pins, but they were not being used. Here are some pictures.


Good chance the dowels were left out with a engine change, new clutch, or main seal replacement. Checking at the salvage yard or the service manual should confirm that. Your photos, unfortunately, have some of the dowel areas on both the ICE and trans. cropped out.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Sorry it has been so long getting back. I have been too busy to even work on this. I suspect they changed the transmission not too long ago, and left the pins out when they put it together.

My first task it to get the motor fixed, so I need to get the rotor out.

I took a video of it and maybe someone has some ideas...?

http://youtu.be/k6ui5sb_SrY


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

I had a similar problem with a plug and sensor wire bundle on a motor once. I had to get the pin extraction tool for that particular type and brand of connector and remove the wires from the receptacle. PITA, but the wires were to short and small to cut and splice. Be sure to note the pinout number/colors first. Extraction tools typically aren't too expensive.

Mine was a custom motor. I'm surprised Siemens would do this to you. Maybe you're just missing something. Can you ask someone like Jack R or Victor (at MetricMind)?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My encoder tone ring had threaded holes for two jack screws. 









If you have to remove the bearings, make sure all washers and mounts are on the shaft before you press the new bearing on. I had to pound my bearing on only to pull it off again because I forgot the plate that mounts behind it. It was frustrating especially having to pull on the outer race of a brand new bearing.











davidwillis said:


> Sorry it has been so long getting back. I have been too busy to even work on this. I suspect they changed the transmission not too long ago, and left the pins out when they put it together.
> 
> My first task it to get the motor fixed, so I need to get the rotor out.
> 
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would again suggest contacting Anne at New Electric since he's had these motors apart. http://newelectric.nl/contact/

*Address:* Veemarkt 74, 1019DD Amsterdam, Netherlands
*KvK:* 57.66.14.13 
*Phone:* +31 (0)6 245 208 44
*Email:* [email protected]
*Web:* newelectric.nl


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> If you have to remove the bearings, make sure all washers and mounts are on the shaft before you press the new bearing on. I had to pound my bearing on only to pull it off again because I forgot the plate that mounts behind it. It was frustrating especially having to pull on the outer race of a brand new bearing.


Typically that plate is assembled to the D.E.H. and bearing and then the end head assembly is pressed onto the shaft. And it is typically removed as an assembly with a puller. Of course when you pull a bearing by the outer race, it is ruined and need be replaced. And always press bearings onto the shaft with a sleeve against the inner race. Heat helps (bearing warmer, but not too much)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another possibility is machining it as is. I would think a keyway could be cut and the end of the shaft bored without further disassembly.


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## davidwillis (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks everyone. I was looking at it closer and found that the 4 bolt holes on the back of the motor were threaded (larger than the bolt). So I threated bolts into them, and pulled the cover off. From there I found the gear with the sensor, and pulled the gear off with a puller, and unplugged the sensor wire.

I now have the rotor out and will take it to a local machine shop to see if they can put on a keyway and make a hub to fit on it with the spined coupler welded to it.

Once that is done, I will be back to getting the motor aligned.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

The splined coupling, alone, may not be enough to support the trans. input shaft. Sometimes there's quite a bit of normal sideways play between the splines in the coupling and the shaft. An accurately machined bushing inside the coupling (pressed and/or welded in, or a hole machined into the motor shaft), that takes the place of the ICE pilot bushing, would be the best way to assure the shaft is well supported. If you're staying clutchless, with no rotation, the bushing can be a plain steel piece.

I'm still working some ideas for aligning the adapter plate. One idea involves the cylindrical extension of the trans. input shaft bearing retainer. This is the surface the clutch release bearing normally slides on. A cylindrical adapter could be made ( out of ~2" diameter shaft-could be aluminum or a hard plastic) with a tight sliding fit on this surface and a concentric, machined surface on the OD. The OD would have a sliding fit in a center hole machined in the adapter plate . Then, the location of the dowel pin holes could be transferred to the plate (I'm still working on that part). If you mess up setting up the dowel pins, you could rotate the plate and try again if the blank is oversized and untrimmed. Next, the bolt holes are located, drilled and tapped. Then the plate is chucked in a lathe, using the center hole, and machined to fit the motor register. This similar to what Martin Winlow did to line up his adapter plate:http://www.winlow.co.uk/wychwood.co.uk/EV_Conversion_-_Part_2.html 

One problem I see is determining how concentric the surface of the bearing retainer extension is to the center line. I don't think it can be done in-place, It could be removed (the ones that are bolted on, some are part of a separate bell housing) , chucked in a lathe and checked for run out. Also, there could be some wear on the surface from the clutch release bearing that would throw off the alignment. Center line misalignment of the extension might be multiplied by 2 or 3 at the adapter plate. Other errors can add up and need checking.

Hey, if you think this is complicated, check out this:http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_Vehicle_Conversion/Powertrain


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