# 626 km on one charge!



## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

That's impressive as hell. The average speed, including time spent for stops, is 55 mph. So that range is really at about 60 mph.

Imagine that same pack in a Solectria Sunrise; its range would incease by 30% or more...

The technology to build an EV capable of road trips, without the existence of fast charge infrastructure, is here today, and is probably at least 7 years old.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More info: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...-tops-600-kilometres-on-test-drive-in-Germany

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/27/dbm-energys-electric-audi-a2-completes-record-setting-372-mile/

Any German speakers want to summarize the battery technology?
http://www.dbm-energy.com/index.php?ms=Faq&PHPSESSID=5284e9159236c9873e6962da921fdc7e&ft=1265026644


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Res...tric-car-sets-world-record/UPI-84921288102816


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

they say, the battery is only 100kg...i can not belive that...

it is LiFe-Polymer-battery


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Said the pack was only 100lbs if translated properly. I want some of those! And will be cheaper than today's batteries? Awesome!


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## resago (Sep 28, 2010)

and what was the headline in US news?
Charlie Sheen.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Said the pack was only 100lbs if translated properly.


100 kgs I think, still impressive.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

this is in German, but also has a picture of the battery 

http://www.emobilitaet-nrw.de/akkutechnik.html


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

And it's a good looking battery too! So what's the difference between his battery and CALB, Hi-Power, TS etc. Different technology?

For a 220 lb pack to power a car for 7 hours with the heater on at 60mph is pretty awesome. My 1500lbs of lead will only carry me about 25 miles at 60 MPH, less with the heater on!


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Any German speakers want to summarize the battery technology?
> http://www.dbm-energy.com/index.php?ms=Faq&PHPSESSID=5284e9159236c9873e6962da921fdc7e&ft=1265026644


It doesn't open. 

Electriccar's article says it's 400% better than traditional batteries. And they only used more modern techniques, and a different electrolite. 

And yes, it's 100kg. 

Hard to believe.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

To tell you the truth, I'd pay $12K for that pack today if it was available.
Just don't let DBM know.

Eric


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## mko (Nov 27, 2009)

Unfortunately their site does not give any clear specs.

From another source (http://www.mag-batterie-service.de/seite/bericht_berliner_zeitung_01022010.htm):
It is a Lithium Metal Polymer (LMP, not necessarily LiFePo) chemistry. 
According to an expert cited in the article, the "LMP technology was in the 90's a predecessor of todays Lithium Ion. It got discarded because it had a short cycle live, needed too high investments into safety and only really worked at temperatures above 60 degrees celsius. It would be indeed remarkable, if somebody has now overcome these obstacles."

Hope this helps, c.k.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Could this be a cousin to lithium sulfur?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Jan said:


> It doesn't open.


Maybe the site was getting crushed, it just worked for me.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Works for me too but I can't read much of it. I can make out one of the questions asking if lithium batteries will explode, and another one is in reference to a reduced carbon footprint.

Still can't find that ever elusive Wh/Kg though.......

Or cycle like, or calender life, or temperature operating range........


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## EVElvis (Jun 20, 2009)

Awesome! I want one!


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

david85 said:


> Works for me too but I can't read much of it. I can make out one of the questions asking if lithium batteries will explode, and another one is in reference to a reduced carbon footprint.
> 
> Still can't find that ever elusive Wh/Kg though.......
> 
> Or cycle like, or calender life, or temperature operating range........


they say, that the battery is good for 500.000km 

and i read something about 100kWh....this is: 1000Wh/kg....NICE...

i have this feeling, that some big OEM will buy this technology and keep it from us for another 10-20years...


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## mko (Nov 27, 2009)

The site works fine, but you will not get any useful facts - even if you do speak German.

However at the end of the FAQ, they make some very disconcerting claims:
The battery will _save_ 70% of engergy compared to pb, simply because of higher efficiency. I assume they relate to the DoD, which is higher than pb. But I cannot fathom how this would save energy, since even pb does not have such a high self discharge rate.

Nevertheless, I sent them an email asking about specs, availability, price, etc. I will keep you informed, should they answer. But even under the best circumstances I would not expect a quick reply, because they will probably be bombarded with these kind of requests.

Best, c.k.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Yep. It worked for me too now. But it will not get you any wiser.

The 70% asumes that Pb is less than 30% efficient. That's hard to believe. Peukert can have a really big effect on Pb. But so much?


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## mko (Nov 27, 2009)

Found this article from a journalist that accompanied the trip (in German):
http://adacemobility.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/das-wunder-von-berlin/#more-744

It has also a picture of the battery and some technical specs (although they are quoted "mit Vorbehalt" which translates to "conditionally" / "with a grain of salt"):
Curb weight (incl. driver) 1260 kg
Max weight 1600kg
Battery LiFePo (260 Ah/380 V), cell voltage 3.8 V
Battery weight ca. 300kg
Charging time about 4h due to network restrictions (380V)
The battery would allow 6 min charging time
Cycle live 2500 (w/o capacity decrease)
= target live expectancy 500'000 km
Max Speed 160 km/h
5 gear racing transmission 
E-Motor 300 Nm torque

So, not 100 kg but 300 - wich would however still be very impressive.

Cheers, c.k.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

And it was 605 km in 9 hours and 5 minutes. 66,5km/h on average. Or 41,5m/h. The driving was very economical. Still good. And getting more realistic.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

RoughRider said:


> they say, that the battery is good for 500.000km
> 
> and i read something about 100kWh....this is: *1000Wh/kg*....NICE...





mko said:


> Found this article from a journalist that accompanied the trip (in German):
> http://adacemobility.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/das-wunder-von-berlin/#more-744
> 
> It has also a picture of the battery and some technical specs (although they are quoted "mit Vorbehalt" which translates to "conditionally" / "with a grain of salt"):
> ...


If true, these specs are nothing short of a game changer......if true.

Time will tell.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

It's more like 300Wh/kg.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Autoblog is on it, they show 55mph average speed.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/2...laims-new-electric-vehicle-distance-record-3/


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

TMC discussion: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-Audi-A2-goes-605-km-(378mi)-without-charging


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I couldn't get that mileage at 10 mph!


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> The 70% asumes that Pb is less than 30% efficient.


 It assumes 57% efficiency for pb: 0.57*(1+0.7) = 0.97, which is the stated efficiency in the spec mko posted. 
So 260Ah* 380V = 98.8kWh, 98.8kWh/300kg = 329Wh/kg, and my CALB cells are about 103Wh/kg. Sure hope those specs are accurate, and there are not some hidden show stoppers.
If you charge that 98800Wh pack in 6 minutes, or 0.1 hr, that would be 0.988MW, and 3% loss would be 988000*0.03 = 29.6kW, or about 2960W/cell (100 cells) resulting in some serious heating, if you could actually find somewhere to do it. Maybe a bauxite reduction plant.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Y'all should check out the TMC not JRP3 posted above. This is on page2. 

{loosely translated}... The lithium metal polymer cell of DBM Energy is about as large as a flat bar of chocolate, weighs 180 grams and has a power density of 250 Watt hours per kilogram...

{loosely translated}...DBM is able to hold the current flow stably between minus 40 and plus 100 degrees Celsius.


{loosely translated}...Safe without active cooling. Half the price of typical Lithium batteries.

Now that answers a lot of questions however cycle life etc is yet to be found.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

All these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt until we get independent testing.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> All these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt until we get independent testing.


Or until they start selling them which could take at least 5 years going by previous examples.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

the car disappeared after 450km for around 40minutes from the press-buss...why??


the speed of the car was 80-90km/h...thats not much


the battery in the car has 330wh/kg...but on the website they say, that the cells have 250Wh/kg...how can that be?


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

The specs do seem a bit optimistic; that being said, there are prototype and existing batteries that have achieved specs similar to what is claimed here, just not all of those specs within the same battery. The Thundersky LiFePO4 can get close to that cycle life, Altair Nanotechnologies can exceed it, Sion's prototype LiS batteries have similar specific capacity, ect.

I personally want to believe its real, and cannot wait to be able to buy them. With the absolute best hobbyist conversions only needing 100-120 Wh/mile on the highway, a 96 kWh pack would give more than double the range of a gasoline car during normal highway driving conditions... and at 140+ mph with a 90 kW draw, a range approaching 150 miles in those conditions. *drool*


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## mko (Nov 27, 2009)

FYI, found this website, which gives a wee bit more information about the vehicle:
http://www.lekker-mobil.com/energiespeicher.html

The page has also some pictures (which seem to be computer generated), not just of the battery, but also of the motor and controller. Maybe somebody has a clue about these.

Cheers, c.k.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I built mine for errands at work and to commute. I'd love to have 100-200 mile range with light weight batteries. My 30 mile lead pack is 1500 lbs + the steel in the racks is probably another 50-100 lbs.

I've looked hard to find a place to buy them, not that I'm ready to buy but to investigate further. Can't find anything but they said they were going to be selling a lot of them soon so we'll see. And at half the price of current technology, I can't wait! I'll probably buy a much larger pack than originally planned so I can go out of town with it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm a bit concerned with the "Mobile" logo on the vehicle. We don't need another Ovonic/Chevron debacle.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EEstory thread on the topic: http://theeestory.com/topics/7090


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I'm hearing more and more lately that this is a scam.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How so? The battery certainly exists, and has been tested in forklifts as well as the Audi. There seem to be a number of real companies involved, as well as the German government. Seems as if a scam would have easily been exposed by at least one of the involved parties.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Longer video on the Lekker-Mobile home page. Any German speakers who can tell if they give new information on the battery or production?

http://www.lekker-mobil.com/


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Longer video on the Lekker-Mobile home page. Any German speakers who can tell if they give new information on the battery or production?
> 
> http://www.lekker-mobil.com/



much BLABLA...no new infos...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

RoughRider said:


> much BLABLA.


Was that a direct translation?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Interview with Mirko Hannemann from DBM:
http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhiFGBgU1B0DmXVV62JDpo5TupLG-g


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

Gentlemen new poster, I have seen an almost identical battery layout as the one displayed in the pic's of the motor and controller. It looks incredabley like the lithium battery made by (ENERDEL) in Noblesville Indiana it has a selectable voltage VS amp's. Switched in the battery, the container is an almost duplicate to their current test modules they have been prepping for production.  I am under the assumption that their batteries are a pouch type of construction installed into a containment assembly to eliminate possible damage to the individual cells


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think the Enerdel chemistry has the density claimed by the DBM team.


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## lockduke (Dec 25, 2009)

I understand that, it just surprised me that the layout was just like EnerDel's almost to the point of a similar layout for the ability to set up for parallel pak or all series for voltage increase. Also they have been running several (HIGH ENERGY) charging systems for rechargeing of their battery technology in under 10-15 min with no loss of cycling.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Fast charging is no longer unusual for a number of chemistries.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I sure hope this is real and not a bunch of smoke and mirrors.


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## Dan Yanoff (Jan 18, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> I sure hope this is real and not a bunch of smoke and mirrors.



Looks like it very well may be. There is smoke anyway.
http://news.google.ca/news/search?pz=1&cf=all&ned=ca&hl=en&q=DBM+Energy+KOLIBRI+AlphaPolymer

The one I can read says the car was completely destroyed in fire and ADAC (automobile association) calls the fire suspicious. Earlier ADAC had questioned the record while DBM and Lekker refused to allow independent tests of the car.
DBM says the batteries were not on the burned car and thus could not be the cause of fire.


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## Korben_Dallas (Feb 27, 2009)

The ADAC and the german government were quick to claim this is the breakthrough in battery technology. Now at least the ADAC puts DBM in the sewer because they refused independent testing. And the government officials may not be too happy about shouting out the world record.
If you acknowledge that the big 4 OEM in germany pracitically dictate what is printed in the ADAC magazine that behavior makes sense. The german OEMs have absolutely NO car to show up with. Even if the DBM-Audi "only" did 450km it's a huge loss of face for Mercedes and the other guys.

cvh


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another article: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/a-375-mile-battery-range-too-good-to-be-true/


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

New article:

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Res...car-burns-amid-controversy/UPI-33811297175159


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another one: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/02/controversial-ev-burns-mystery-deepens/


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

> Then, around Christmas is happened:
> the record-setting car, parked in a warehouse rented by local utility Gasag, burned. Authorities have been investigating on suspicion of arson.​DBM’s founder Mirko Hannemann claims
> “We are allowed to say only this: Neither the car nor DBM Energy is responsible for this fire”… The record-setting car is now junk but the battery pack had apparently been taken out the vehicle before the fire. A non-inflammable battery was in the car, Hannemann said, countering speculation that the battery might have caused the fire. Either way, the KOLIBRI battery can be reproduced and is currently built into a new car​And though Hanneman says accusations that angry competitors burnt the vehicle are “without basis,” he mentions them in saying that the investigation is the responsibility of the prosecutor, which is a handy way of keeping the speculation alive. Of course, the real question is whether DBM’s battery was in the car that burnt or not… after all, the firm’s forklift batteries have started fires before.
> So what we have on our hands is quite a mystery


Those naive Germans, there is no mystery, all they had to do is ask Jack Rickard to investigate the fire. Even without leaving his EVTV garage he would come to solid conclusion, BMS burned it..... mystery solved.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

They have their own Q&A now:

http://www.dbm-energy.com/

They're not allowed to say anything about J Rickards findings so far.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

English translation. If the link doesn't work, go to google.com and type in dbm energy and it will give you the option to translate it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More coverage, new independent tests of the battery, no cost or weight info though.





http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/0...king-kolibri-battery-passes-government-tests/


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Even if this battery is vaporware, it just goes to show, someday soon, someone will genuinely build such a high power/low cost battery. That day the Internal Combustion Engine will die.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I told my neighbor after discussing why he should build an ev with a Fiero he had that one day in the not to distant future that we'll laugh at ourselves for having driven the "contraptions" that we do with all the moving parts and fluids requiring replacing etc. I reminding him I have no oil, filter, belts or hoses on my truck to replace and the motor has ONE moving part, not hundreds like the complex engines we currently use. Eventually there will likely be no need for a transmission in most vehicles.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Eventually there will likely be no need for a transmission in most vehicles.


Most of the current production EV's already do without a transmission and just use a single speed gear reduction.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More articles
http://gas2.org/2011/04/13/dubious-dbm-400-mile-ev-passes-german-government-tests
http://paultan.org/2011/04/13/dbm-energy-hummingbird-from-hero-to-zero-to-hero-again/


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

> So by now you’re thinking that it must cost a small fortune. Well, _supposedly,_ the 98 kWh battery pack has a price of between $1,100 and $1,400. I know, I know, it _still_ sounds unbelievable, and as much as I want to believe DBM’s claims, I’ll remain cautiously optimistic until I see some proof with my own eyes. But ze Germans make some pretty bold claims that could mean a new era of electric-powered automobiles.


Seems too good to be true (but I want it to be true!!!!!)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

"...and the battery is 1/3 lighter than the Teslas, twice as powerful, and supposedly a helluva lot cheaper. Did I mention that the battery could also be fully recharged in just six minutes?" Add to this an estimated 5000 cycles!

And the 98kw pack cost less than $2000? I seriously want to buy some!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The whole world does  Thing is the price could be off by a decimal point and still be amazing, so I'm pretty much discounting the projected pricing as impossible.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

One more article:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-c...lectric-car-battery-does-it-really-exist/3850


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> The whole world does  Thing is the price could be off by a decimal point and still be amazing, so I'm pretty much discounting the projected pricing as impossible.


(I think this was directed at me?)

I'm trying to hold my tongue and not blast it away as vaporware, but unfortunately these things often are.

Even at that, I'm probably still saying too much this early on.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually it was for ElectricCar's post above mine, where he said he wanted to buy some. My feeling is that the battery parameters may be real but the pricing has been misquoted or mistranslated. Maybe the materials cost is that low but not the finished product.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

It reminds me of a science fiction story I read years ago. A group of top scientists were brought together and shown shaky footage of what they were told was an anti-gravity machine on a test flight. The machine took off and flew for a few seconds, but then crashed, totally destroying the machine and killing the inventor, who had left no records of his creation.

They were all asked to go away and work out how it had been done. Most of them said it was impossible and the footage had been faked, but one of them became obsessed by the idea. Eventually he came up with a working antigravity machine, but it was much larger than the original machine...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 the price has been stated (though somewhat vague) by them over and over so I'm not questioning that. Besides, if it were double or triple or even quadrouple to $6000 for 98kwh, it would still be a steal!

Their batteries are reportedly being used in fork lifts now so I don't know what's holding up sales. Maybe they don't have the capability to mass produce yet, hopefully that's the holdup. Anyway, that's my only question. And if the German government has verified the story by testing then that's awesome. Yet still there could be negative issues of some sort with the batteries not reported yet. Maybe in six months or so we'll be able to get our hands on some. 

I have a van I'm wanting to convert but it's curb weight is about 4500 lbs. Want to use it for service work and would ideally have a 100 mile range or better. This sets up to be the answer money wise. I'm excited but it's tempered...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> JRP3 the price has been stated (though somewhat vague) by them over and over so I'm not questioning that. Besides, if it were double or triple or even quadrouple to $6000 for 98kwh, it would still be a steal!


My point was even if they were off by a decimal point, and the price were $20K for a 98 kWh pack at their claimed density, it would still be a breakthrough. I'm not even sure that 600 lbs of materials in the purity needed to make the pack could be had for their claimed price point.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Actually it was for ElectricCar's post above mine, where he said he wanted to buy some. My feeling is that the battery parameters may be real but the pricing has been misquoted or mistranslated. Maybe the materials cost is that low but not the finished product.


Well I can certainly believe close to 100kwh of energy delivering that sort of range. Gives me a strange and disturbing feeling just thinking about it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> Well I can certainly believe close to 100kwh of energy delivering that sort of range.


I've been trying to point out to various writers that the range from that amount of energy has little to do with the battery, it's the efficiency of the vehicle. The important part is that 100kwh of battery can actually fit in a vehicle without literally weighing a ton and without taking up all the interior space, and as a bonus might be affordable. Everyone is hung up on the range of that specific vehicle, but density and cost are the important metrics to concentrate on, range is just the result.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

New video in German
http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/:wirtschaft-auf-dem-weg-zum-elektroauto/60038567.html


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Maybe in six months or so we'll be able to get our hands on some.


 Maybe in 10 years. If the claims are accurate, every vehicle manufacturer will want them. Even if they licensed the technology to multiple battery manufacturers it would likely be years before they would be available to diyers. The only hope for us I think would be they would license to TS, CALB, HP or the like. Hope the claims are accurate. If so it would be about as big a game changer as this if it turns out to be as good as it sounds: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Another article
http://gm-volt.com/2011/04/12/cost-...reportedly-passes-tests-recharges-in-minutes/


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Now hold on a friggin minute. That is some serious power to deliver! It's really absurd the amount of amperage that would have to be delivered to that pack. 

"According to DBM Energy’s Chief Operating Officer, Markus Röser, a 98.8-kWh version of its battery can be fully recharged inside of six minutes, although he would not divulge how this was accomplished. "

From what SOC? Wouldn't divulge it? Probably because it isn't practical unless it's only slightly discharged. If 90% depleted it would need 89Kw to refill. The plug to deliver such a charge would be too large to handle by hand. With a three phase 480V INDUSTRIAL power supply source, you're talking almost 1100 Amps per wire being delivered across three wires, not including additional power for losses. DC wise for a 300V pack you would have to have cables large enough to deliver just shy of 3,000 amps! The only way it MAY be practical would be to have a high voltage pack to reduce the amps. And that is a whole nother ball of wax right there requiring special wiring techniques as high voltage, particularly DC will jump or arc across the air if the gap is small enough. 

A 1000V pack would get it down to a more manageable 890A. But still, that isn't a plug that you could handle without help. And I personally wouldn't work on a car with that much DC voltage on it. An accident of any sort at that voltage would likely be catastrophic and lethal if you were to get shocked by it. 

Of course a 6 minute recharge or the like is what needs to happen for EV's to overtake petroleum engines, I just don't see it happening unless it were done wirelessly somehow.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Is induction charging even practical at power levels like that?


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I don't think any of this is even necessary. Once we have cars capable of 300 mile ranges, and we are almost there now, and Level 3 charge stations everywhere I think that alone will be the death of the petroleum age. All you really need is a car capable of 200 watt hours per mile and a 60 kwh pack to get a 300 mile range. If you could build a car that runs 150 watt hours per mile you could get by with a 45 kwh pack.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

So Jason how long does level 3 take? How does that work for long trips with stops only for food and fuel? I've driven from Georgia to Texas, 18 hours straight from Chicago to Georgia, Georgia to Hollywood Florida, the southern tip which is about 800 miles, and South Carolina to Florida numerous times at 8-9 hours. All these but the Chicago trip at 70-80 mph. What does the average ev consume at 75mph? Or do we just have to suck it up and stop after 300 miles for an hour or so at a time?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EC, you're making the classic mistake of thinking EV's have to do everything an ICE does. Truth is most people have no problem taking a 15-30 minute break after 200-300 miles of driving, and those trips are rare anyway. Rent an ICE, rent a genset trailer, or deal with the extra time on a really long trip, it's not a big deal. The idea that we can drive endlessly on a whim grew out of cheap abundant oil, which no longer exists. It's not an actual necessity. As for the 6 minute charge time, I always take those numbers as theoretical, i.e. this battery can take those charge levels, even if the real world can't produce them for a larger battery pack.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi.


JRP3 said:


> Truth is most people have no problem taking a 15-30 minute break after 200-300 miles of driving


True, but only after driving 300 miles on the same trip. Most people will expect the same 6 min refueling wait after driving 300 miles total in short trips over week.

It's inevitable that people will make the ICE comparison. I say, bring it on. For all intents of purposes, we just started seriously looking into improving battery technology and despite that we have already covered the typical driving range of most folks. Not bad, eh? Give EVs a few years and the range issue will be equalized. After all, who needs a car that can travel more than 300 miles at a time?

Range cured, the argument moves to emissions and I think it's laughable to say any form of ICE can emit less than pure electric so that will be settled too. The next one from there will be cost of ownership and, again, after everything is fairly tallied, EVs win by a mile, no pun intended.

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JRoque said:


> Hi.
> 
> 
> True, but only after driving 300 miles on the same trip. Most people will expect the same 6 min refueling wait after driving 300 miles total in short trips over week.


Except since you can plug in every night at home you don't have to wait till you're empty to fill up. Short trips during the week are already covered, it takes seconds to plug in at home. Since you never have to stop at a gas station and wait in line it's already more convenient, and of course cheaper.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> So Jason how long does level 3 take? How does that work for long trips with stops only for food and fuel? I've driven from Georgia to Texas, 18 hours straight from Chicago to Georgia, Georgia to Hollywood Florida, the southern tip which is about 800 miles, and South Carolina to Florida numerous times at 8-9 hours. All these but the Chicago trip at 70-80 mph. What does the average ev consume at 75mph? Or do we just have to suck it up and stop after 300 miles for an hour or so at a time?


On the rare occasion when most of us will be taking long trips that is when a power boost trailer comes in. With a properly designed trailer you could drive much farther than an I.C.E.

Truth is, most people don't take super long road trips in their cars. Some do, but most either don't or go on airplanes.

Besides, look how far battery technology has come in the last ten years alone. If they can start making batteries out of theses new carbon nanotubes, the whole game changes. The amount of energy they could potentially store is nothing less than staggering. Imagine taking the entire trip with only one recharge.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Don't think I'm in support of petrol, I can't wait until we're laughing at the ancient things they are! I'm just pointing out the problems with a 6 minute recharge. I think a 300-400 mile range, at interstate speeds with heat or AC on will be enough. With my S10 that I'm guessing would be about 150Kw, quite a lot of power to pack in a small space currently.

Currently we have 3 trips we make at long distances, all three are between 200-250 miles and we stay overnight. One thing that over the years I've seen is trips to pick up and drop off kids from divorced parents. Mine were usually about 300 miles, some will be more. So if one makes these frequent trips there will have to be some type rapid recharge ability. To me 15-20 minutes would be fine.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the most reasonable answer to those who have frequent long trips is a plug in hybrid.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think the most reasonable answer to those who have frequent long trips is a plug in hybrid.


I'm thinking of getting a Prius and adding several kw to get us around town. If we need to go out of town you're right, that would be the ticket and would suffice for years to come.


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## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

Thread derail, but they have battery swaps in 40 seconds.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

I'm not sure this is the best solution, as it needs a lot of infrastructure and cooperation between different manufacturers, but it could get started with fleet vehicles. There is an electric bus in Berkeley that runs all day and swaps batteries.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

That's an opportunity for problems, damage to your vehicle, people getting hurt etc. I likely wouldn't do it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I won't bore the regulars and further derail the thread but my extensive thoughts on why swapping isn't a great concept can be seen on my blog if anyone is interested:
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
http://ephase.blogspot.com/2011/03/better-place-fairy-tale-crumbles.html


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## newenergy (Oct 20, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I won't bore the regulars and further derail the thread but my extensive thoughts on why swapping isn't a great concept can be seen on my blog if anyone is interested:
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2010/12/project-better-place-exposed.html
> http://ephase.blogspot.com/2011/03/better-place-fairy-tale-crumbles.html


Yeah, I agree it's not as good as charging overnight, so not good/necessary for most commuting. For long distance travel it's probably not worth the engineering trouble you're talking about and maybe Uhaul renting generator trailers is the best option for that kind of thing.

Battery swapping makes sense though for fleet vehicles, don't you think? If you could design something around a few vehicles like the Ford Transit or Dodge Sprinter Van, they could be used widely by any kind of delivery/transportation company. That is, unless you really can get a decent recharge in 20 or 30 minutes. I guess the biggest problem with battery swapping is that batteries are improving so rapidly that by the time any swapping infrastructure could ever be worked out, charging will be fast enough that it wouldn't be worth it under any circumstances.

BTW, is there some rough number for the progress in batteries in terms of energy/weight and/or life cycles that's similar to Moore's Law for computers?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not really, progress of about 8% a year seems like normal, but a breakthrough or new process will of course change things. DBM may have done that.
Forklifts have used swappable packs for years, so it can work in a controlled, limited environment. Since Altairnano already has fast charge batteries working in buses fast charge is also a real world option that doesn't require a complete vehicle redesign, though it does require high power feeds, or a dump pack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

More coverage, article and video:
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2011/05/09/long-range-electric-car/


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm still looking for details ie life expectancy, performance in adverse temps and price and availability.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I really hope we keep hearing good news in regards to this.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> New video in German
> http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/:wirtschaft-auf-dem-weg-zum-elektroauto/60038567.html


If this image represents the real size of the battery-pack, and the cost claims are true - the internal combustion engine powered car i dead! 

A shame that DBM is not answering to calls and e-mails. I'll have to jump into a plane and visit them in Berlin, I'll be in Stuttgart next week and try to stay a day longer to knock on their door.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Go get em Cro!  I imagine there might be a line at his door though with every automaker wanting to get a crack at these cells


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Go get em Cro!  I imagine there might be a line at his door though with every automaker wanting to get a crack at these cells


I agree with all of that...


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Found some pages on Swen Streubel named in the video. Seems that he has been building Audi A2's for a while, and was his company that built the R600 in the video.

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.le-mobile.de/&ei=XXHKTaqRC5GOvQO03NnjBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.le-mobile.de/%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au%26prmd%3Divns

Go to the page on the "E-Cars" and has a small blurb on the R600.

and an old car on ev album

http://www.evalbum.com/2602


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice detective work. Since a fellow converter is involved that gives even more credibility to the DBM claims


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

> The response from outside Germany has been far more positive. Especially in the US. We've just had visitors here from the US who're involved in promoting economic development - they made it clear to us that our future isn't in Germany


http://www.evuk.co.uk/news/index8.html

Bring it on Mirko we're waiting 

http://www.tvbvideo.de/video/iLyROoafztSS.html
http://www.tvbvideo.de/video/iLyROoafztSH.html


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Just as a sidebar, but after doing some online research it looks like their primary secret ingredient is vanadium; which they are the first of many to demonstrate. Apparently some patent trolls lithium vanadium battery patent ran out in 2007 and we're about to see some of the advances companies have been making over the last 5 years bear fruit in the form of higher energy density(as good or better than LiCo), extremely long cycle life(3-5k full charge/discharge cycles), as safe or safer than LiFePO4, and extremely high discharge/recharge rates (up to 50C continuous)which you can get when combining vanadium into lithium batteries. Oh and cheaper

There's also some big developments in using vanadium redox batteries for grid storage.

Things are definitely looking promising for the electric car.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Vanadium redox batteries have been around for a while but haven't seemed to catch on. What changes have you seen? Do you have any links to the Vanadium lithium data?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Jeremy, great post! That sent me on an hour-long, wild goose chase for Vanadium information.

Here's a couple of links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

Summary on vanadium redox batteries:


> The main advantages of the vanadium redox battery are that it can offer almost unlimited capacity simply by using larger and larger storage tanks, it can be left completely discharged for long periods with no ill effects, it can be recharged simply by replacing the electrolyte if no power source is available to charge it, and if the electrolytes are accidentally mixed the battery suffers no permanent damage.
> 
> The main disadvantages with vanadium redox technology are a relatively poor energy-to-volume ratio, and the system complexity in comparison with standard storage batteries


and one that talks about the DBM cell:
http://www.energizerresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421&Itemid=206

JR


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Yep the info is pretty dispersed and you have to do a little digging, but the info is out there. 

Here are a few of the links I pulled my info from

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-03/dnnl-utv031711.php

http://www.thebullandbear.com/articles/2009/1109-Rapholz.html

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/New...um-Boost-Would-Give-Batteries-More-Juice.aspx

http://www.thehotpennystocks.com/St...t-is-FLPC-Lithium-Vanadium-Sweet-Chart-/33510

http://seekingalpha.com/article/245896-vanadium-to-revolutionize-green-energy

http://www.americanvanadium.com/lithium-vanadium-batteries.php

http://www.gizmag.com/go/8281/

I'm not saying everything I posted is 100% accurate, but it should be close and some of the numbers being claimed pretty well falls into line with what others are saying about the lithium vanadium based chemistry and what DBM is claiming about their battery.

Lots more can be turned up with a simple search. All you need to do is look with the right key words.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Done some more digging to try and work out the energy densiy of the 100kWh car. The specs for the car are on this page. These guys built the car as I've mentioned before.

http://www.le-mobile.de/index.php?lang=en&page=32

Curb weight is 1260kg. A similar car with 20kWh pack is 1200kg.

I calculate that to be 384 watts per kilo.

Which is mind blowing / future changing / insert hyperbole here


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

I know the TÜV has tested these batteries. But only on savety, not on their (secret) claims. As far as I know. Or is there any onfo of a independent third party test?

I know I'm way to sceptical, but the possibility to replace the electrolyte of this chemistry and the fact the car dissapeared a little while during the record run, makes me think.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They are delivering cars to companies for real world testing, as well as most battery testing. If the claims are not for real it's a very bold scam indeed. The specs are within possibility, the initial cost projections seem far fetched. They may have underestimated the actual costs of manufacturing, but as I've said they could be off by a factor of 10 and still have a game changing battery.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> They are delivering cars to companies for real world testing, as well as most battery testing. If the claims are not for real it's a very bold scam indeed. The specs are within possibility, the initial cost projections seem far fetched. They may have underestimated the actual costs of manufacturing, but as I've said they could be off by a factor of 10 and still have a game changing battery.


OK. Real world testing. We will see.


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## pw0wp (Jun 30, 2011)

Hey,

i stumbled over your forum when searching for other DBM Energy related stuff. I think is is quite hard to find english information to that topic. Shortly after the record drive from Munich to Berlin DBM Energy received a lot of bad press here and most people thought it was a scam. During that time i started a german blog to write about DBM Energy and their battery from a more "objective" (as far as possible at least ;-). Don't want to advertise here but if you look for a condensed compilation of DBM history and latest news have a look at pressw0rds and try using some online translation. I thought about an English translation but can't promise anything since my time is limited...

To answer some of your recent questions:
@drgrieve (energy density of the 100kWh car)
The so called lekker-mobile had a battery density of 282 kWh. The battery weight was about 350kg. Newer cars e.g. the silver-arrow (the one with which DBM passed the BAM and DEKRA tests) has an energy density of 171 kWh. Over all there seems to be at least 3 different versions of the battery (one other used in forklifts has around 140 kWh). But the exact energy density is one of the open questions...

@Jan
The disappearance during the record drive is another German media thing. One press guy said it and lots of other media made a reference to that one guy's statement. That was so lame since that guy was probably just miffed because he didn't get the battery for testing. (DBM states later that some institutions DEMANDED to test the battery immediately) What actually happend?
The bus with some press guys didn't see the car the whole time. But this wasn't the only car following the DBM car. Overall there were about 4 or so cars following. One for instance with high government officials. The first "disappearance" happened after 470km. DBM published the GPRS tracking data of the car proving that one guy wrong, but to that time the doubt was already out...

L.E. mobile is DBM's partner and has (until today) converted all cars for DBM. 
1. Lekker-Mobil (burned down due to an arson attack)
2. Silver-Arrow (tested by BAM and DEKRA institutions.)
3. 3x Next Energy long term testing vehicles

If you got other specific questions go ahead  I try to answer them. (But all infos are on the blog...)

@jeremyjs
>Apparently some patent trolls lithium vanadium battery patent ran out in 2007
May I ask where that information is from? Gotta source? The vanadium theory is interesting however i had never heard/read of it until I stumbled over the forum here. There is no media source backing that up except for that Canadian mining corporation...

Update: Guess i found the source for the vanadium news:Eco friendly 375 mile range 6 minute charge low fat audi (still interessted in the patent source


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Having a hell of a time finding the patent source. I was referencing an article, but can't seem to find it back. I'll look some more when I have time.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I thought the number given by DBM previously was 340 Wh/kg. Perhaps that is what they view the potential to be, and not the number achieved by any of their test batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

pw0wp said:


> Hey,
> 
> i stumbled over your forum when searching for other DBM Energy related stuff. I think is is quite hard to find english information to that topic.


Thanks for the information. I linked to it over at Teslamotors club where there is a similar thread.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4652-Converted-Audi-A2-goes-605-km-%28378mi%29-without-charging


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi. Not knowing exactly what technology they used, it's hard to tell what patent applies but here's some info on expired vanadium redox battery patent:

From: http://www.vfuel.com.au/infosheet.pdf


> In April, 2006, the basic G1 VRB patent expired, thereby allowing V-Fuel to
> commercialise G1 VRB systems around the world using its proprietary new low cost stack
> technology. Figure 9 that show V-Fuel’s new 1-2 kW/6 kWh G1 VRB prototype that is
> now ready for production in stack sizes up to 5-10 kW.


Then: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4786567.html invented by Maria Skyllas-Kazacos and co-workers at the University of New South Wales in the 1980s

JR


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

pw0wp said:


> If you got other specific questions go ahead  I try to answer them.


Do you have any solid figures on the actual battery pack costs? Some of the quoted costs seem impossibly low, and they don't seem in line with the recent claims of a 30K Euro vehicle, which would be about $44K. $44K is still very good compared to other EV's but seems a lot higher than some quotes of less than $2K for a DBM battery pack.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

JRoque said:


> Hi. Not knowing exactly what technology they used, it's hard to tell what patent applies but here's some info on expired vanadium redox battery patent:
> 
> From: http://www.vfuel.com.au/infosheet.pdf
> Then: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4786567.html invented by Maria Skyllas-Kazacos and co-workers at the University of New South Wales in the 1980s
> ...


Nice find. Agreed unless we know the exact chemistry it's hard too tell. I'm pretty sure one of the things covered by the patent was how to put the correct oxidation state of vanadium into solution; which I'd assume could also be necessary to incorporating the vanadium into a lithium battery. This is pure speculation, but would make a certain amount of sense. Need to see if I can find an online copy of the patent to read.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

jeremyjs said:


> Need to see if I can find an online copy of the patent to read.


 Go here: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4786567.html and then click on "Claim" to see what she claimed, in lawyer speak.

JR


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

JRoque said:


> Go here: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4786567.html and then click on "Claim" to see what she claimed, in lawyer speak.
> 
> JR


ugh. Reading through that makes my head hurt. I hate lawyer speak.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

just thinking about the Stanford silicon nano wire cathode and a guy posted that sodium had 2 times the energy of lithium , which could lead to 10 times energy density of present batteries lithium /silicon and 20 times lithium/ sodium . OK , so if vanadium could be combined with silicon nano' s could we see 2800 watts/KG ? Or could sodium work with vanadium/silicon nano in some way bring sodium into a workable (cheap and powerful ) anode with 5600 watts/KG (.5 mega watt/220 lbs that's lighter then fuel) . Sodium must be dirt cheap compared to lithium . Dare to dream !!


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## pw0wp (Jun 30, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Do you have any solid figures on the actual battery pack costs? Some of the quoted costs seem impossibly low, and they don't seem in line with the recent claims of a 30K Euro vehicle, which would be about $44K. $44K is still very good compared to other EV's but seems a lot higher than some quotes of less than $2K for a DBM battery pack.


Hi sorry for the late answer but somehow i thought I enabled the mail alert which i obviously didn't :-(

The cost thing is another still open question. Until now there are at least 4 different sources about the cost. In my opinion the most likely is the article from an investment magazine where the exact cost is mentioned:
7000 Euro for an 26,88 kWh battery used in fork lifts. This seems to be backed by the guy from papstar (the company who bought the batteries). He said the battery costs about 4 times as much as a lead battery. But also take this with a grain of salt since this was in the middle of 2009 where the company was quite unknown to that point. Currently they are converting into a public (stock) company which will surely change the prices ...

The 1100$-1400$ claim came from Peter Hoffmann of the Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Letter but I highly doubt those numbers...

The only official number directly from the inventor is _7,20 Euro / 100 km which is about 10$ / 62 miles._


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## pw0wp (Jun 30, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> Nice find. Agreed unless we know the exact chemistry it's hard too tell. I'm pretty sure one of the things covered by the patent was how to put the correct oxidation state of vanadium into solution; which I'd assume could also be necessary to incorporating the vanadium into a lithium battery. This is pure speculation, but would make a certain amount of sense. Need to see if I can find an online copy of the patent to read.


Thanks for the links but it is definitly not a redox battery. I wrote to the author of the original article (benzEV.co.nz) and his vanadium theory based on the assumption that DBM is using avestor technology. Avestor (canadian comp.) went bankrupt and was sold to the french Bollore corp. They founded batscap which today supplies the batteries for the bluecar (= LMP battery). (Wrote an article about it on the blog). 

Afterall it is totally normal when hearing 'Lithium metal polymer' battery to look in the direction of avestor. However from my perspective the numbers doesn't match so i doubt that a vanadium cathode is used...


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

pw0wp said:


> Thanks for the links but it is definitly not a redox battery. I wrote to the author of the original article (benzEV.co.nz) and his vanadium theory based on the assumption that DBM is using avestor technology. Avestor (canadian comp.) went bankrupt and was sold to the french Bollore corp. They founded batscap which today supplies the batteries for the bluecar (= LMP battery). (Wrote an article about it on the blog).
> 
> Afterall it is totally normal when hearing 'Lithium metal polymer' battery to look in the direction of avestor. However from my perspective the numbers doesn't match so i doubt that a vanadium cathode is used...



Thanks for the info. Until they actually tell us what their battery actually is and why it's so good we're all just shooting in the dark hoping to hit something worthwhile.





pw0wp said:


> Hi sorry for the late answer but somehow i thought I enabled the mail alert which i obviously didn't :-(
> 
> The cost thing is another still open question. Until now there are at least 4 different sources about the cost. In my opinion the most likely is the article from an investment magazine where the exact cost is mentioned:
> 7000 Euro for an 26,88 kWh battery used in fork lifts. This seems to be backed by the guy from papstar (the company who bought the batteries). He said the battery costs about 4 times as much as a lead battery. But also take this with a grain of salt since this was in the middle of 2009 where the company was quite unknown to that point. Currently they are converting into a public (stock) company which will surely change the prices ...
> ...


Not too bad. About $368 per Kw/h if that's correct


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

pw0wp said:


> Afterall it is totally normal when hearing 'Lithium metal polymer' battery to look in the direction of avestor. However from my perspective the numbers doesn't match so i doubt that a vanadium cathode is used...


Glad you stopped by. So you're saying that you don't think DBM is using vanadium?


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## pw0wp (Jun 30, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Glad you stopped by. So you're saying that you don't think DBM is using vanadium?


Avestor's battery never managed to get higher then 100 Wh/kg and also the internal temperature was still at 80-90°C. That doesn't match with the specs of the dbm battery. Recently MH was asked: "_Can you guarantee that you don't infringe other patents?_" His answer: "_We started (continued) to develop where others gave up, there is no "foreign" know-how where we are._"This could mean they continued where Avestor stopped or it could mean that they took a totally different approach. But since I currently have no 2nd source for the vanadium theory I personally don't think that they are using it. With the blog i collect all information i can find about dbm and the kolibri battery to be able to draw a clearer picture. The vanadium usage was a speculation (the original author confirmed that to me) so until I hear more about it it will remain just a rumor.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm not sure of the details but I believe there are two different ways to use vanadium in lithium cells, with one of them giving higher energy density, which might explain the difference.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

http://translate.google.com/transla...lprobe-fuer-Kolibri-Akkus-324675.html&act=url


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> http://translate.google.com/transla...lprobe-fuer-Kolibri-Akkus-324675.html&act=url


Keep up the detective work, might sell my Vanadium shares now though


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

New article, no new info though.
http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2011/08/30/this-breakthrough-will-soon-slash-ev-prices-drastically/


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Newest story I could find:

http://www.cleanthinking.de/kolibri-akkus-von-dbm-energy-ueberraschen-experten-positiv/21356/

Translation:



> Hummingbird battery of DBM energy suprise experts
> The Hummingbird battery of DBM Energy and the Hummingbird Power Systems Ltd , also exceeded in the tests at Next Energy, the Research Center for Energy Technology at the University of Oldenburg all expectations. How WirtschaftsWoche reported in its Monday edition appearing, project manager Christian Finger writes its final report just for the Federal Economics Ministry over the three-month field test with three different electric vehicles. It stands out the lithium-polymer battery of Mirko Hannemann and DBM Energy: It makes no problems and exceeds the required range of 200 km even in more highway driving at full throttle.
> 
> For field trial of Next Energy, three, the electric car been converted into, tested with hummingbird-A2 Battery to heart and kidney. The lithium-polymer battery has a capacity of 40 kilowatt-hours and should provide a range of 200 kilometers. Actually create these Hummingbird battery has a range of 230 kilometers. Overall, the three cars back in three months, approximately 12,166 km route.
> ...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm wanting to do another conversion OR make a larger pack in a Prius. Either way the battery is the issue, or the cost of it is. I just with they would hurry up and get them to the market!


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Wow. That's amazingly cheap. If I did my figuring right that's in the range of $160-$240 per KW based on the retail price of your average deep cycle lead acid battery on how they calculated the cost of the Lead Acid, either KW to KW or enough LA to go the same range. Although it's almost impossible to be exact; since they didn't give any numbers other than 30% more expensive than LA. It at least gives you a vague idea that these things look to be amazingly cheap. They need to hurry up and ramp up production and start producing these things by the millions.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

PDF on the Next Energy trial http://www.next-energy.de/tl_files/assets/pressemitteilungen/111102_PM_Fahrtests_A2.pdf


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Chrome auto-translate doesn't seem to work for PDFs lol.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> Chrome auto-translate doesn't seem to work for PDFs lol.



Google translate works.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> Google translate works.


Thanks. I didn't know that worked with PDFs.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Anyone know what happenned to these DBM Energy / Hummingbird / Kolibri Alpha Lipo batteries . ..??
So much promissed,....so little delivered !


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks like they went bankrupt, kicked out Mirko Hannemann, and are back in business. 
https://translate.google.com/transl...eder-fliegen/11948244.html&edit-text=&act=url


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks for looking....but that link is broken for me ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Still working for me, but here is the original link before I ran it through google translate: 
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtscha...der-colibri-soll-wieder-fliegen/11948244.html


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