# Planning Beetle conversion



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Kelly make a huge range of controllers without the whine, If you are worried about it then It's probably safer going 96V although it would be a little more expensive. I have seen EVs with as low as 48Vs (eg the forkenswift) but it takes a good 30 secs to reach the top speed. 96 volts gives you better performance if you need it and better efficiency too since the lower amp draw means less heat losses in the batteries, cables and motor. I'm pretty sure the zivian chargers have a range of charging voltages, just take a look at them in more detail.

Welcome to the site!


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

mattW said:


> Kelly make a huge range of controllers without the whine, If you are worried about it then It's probably safer going 96V although it would be a little more expensive


Thanks!!

The Kelly controlers look possible. Especially the 24-120 volt model. I love the fact that I can start with 72 or 96, and increase if needed. I do understand that above a certain point, I'll have to upgrade a lot of parts, but I like a range.

I'm ok if it costs several hundred more for the controler; it coud save me hundreds if I misjudged my requirements, which is likely. ;-)

Anyone familiar with the Kelly's? They look new??

All the order pages I've seen for the zivan chargers have models for specific voltages tho, at least the NG1 and NG3.

desiv


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

Kelly are pretty new but from all the reports I've seen they have amazing customer service i.e. replacing faulty parts within days (including shipping) of just hearing about a problem. I'm going with a 72V Kelly for my motorcycle conversion.

Ok I see the particular models of zivans are available at different voltages but each individual charger is set at 1, sorry my mistake. If you went with 12V individual chargers for the batteries then you would be able to just buy a couple more if you wanted to upgrade.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

OK,
How about something like this?
http://www.quickcharge.com/series charger.htm

It says it will charge a range from 12-127vols. They have 2 models that use a 117v plug; a 6 amp and a 15 amp.

I asume the 15 would be better?

Any drawbaks?
Better options?
I haven't ruled out numerous 12v chargers, but I am trying to keep this as simple as possible also.

Thanks 

desiv


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## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

I found a good kit for you:
http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/1082
Don't know about how good value it is but it seems like the type of components you were after.
Your charging amps should be matched to the Ah of your battery (so as to balance overcharging versus recharge time) but 15A looks like a better option.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

desiv said:


> Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication
> Auto Mechanics: Some, but not a whole bunch. I have worked on my own cars without trouble, but not too fancy, however, I have friends who are much better car people who can help when I get stuck.
> 
> Fabrication: I can build wood boxes, but that's it.  I won't even try any metal fab. If needed, I'll get someone.






You'll definitely want to have metal battery boxes fabbed.



> The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge):
> Just under 20 miles round trip. (With one good but short hill)


That's certainly doable.



> Speed desired
> Max 40, usually 25-30mph.
> 
> What level of performance you are hoping to get
> ...


It's looking like you want a Neighborhood EV instead of a true EV. Still may be better to target a better top range.



> I have a few questions already. (And some I've posted already
> 
> My first question, as is most peoples, is volts. How many. Some people say 72 would be good. Some say you need to start over 100. It's a bit confusing. I've used the calculator, and then read about conversions that seem to do better than the calculator says they should do with that equipment.
> 
> ...


There are three major points about voltage. All point to higher is better:

1) The more voltage you have, the more power capacity you carry. More voltage extends your range.

2) The more voltage you have, the higher your top end speed.

3) The more voltage you have, the more power you can extract from the batteries. It's an effect called the Peukert effect.

So these are some reasons that in general higher voltages are better.



> Also, initially I'm looking at the really big 12V batteries. I know what everyone says, however I have two reasons for thinking this.
> 
> 1: I want to keep this as simple as possible. Finding places for (and wiring) 6 or 7 batteries is much easier than 12 batteries. (and I shudder to think about the over 100 volt setups in a bug???)
> 2: A lot of people say they damaged their first set of batteries. So, if I can get an easy to install set to last a bit, when they are done, I'll most likely be ready for an upgrade to a better system, and possible better technology if it's a year or more out. And if it does last 2 or 3 years (as some people say they have gotten from 12Vs), then great.


Both are logical arguments. Generally the problem with 12V batteries is the fact that the power capacity is about the same as the 6V batteries. So if you're carrying half the number of batteries, you have half the available power, and therefore half the available range.

Be aware that 12V batteries are made with thinner lead plates than the 6V batteries. So they can get damaged more quickly than 6V batteries.



> I also have a concern and a lot of questions about battery chargers.
> It seems the kits come with chargers that match the batteries. So, you get a 72V kit, you get a 72 volt charger. If you add a battery or more (depending on your controller), you have to get a new charger as well??


Sometimes. More advanced chargers will adjust the charging voltage to match the bank.

Another possibility is individual chargers for each battery. Take a look around for GreenFlight's blog as an example. Then if you upgrade your battery voltage, you can just add an additional charger.



> And most people seem to recommend the Zivan charger, which apparently is exactly this type, you order it for your voltage?
> 
> You apparently really have to get your requirements right first, but the only way to really do that (considernig hills and such) would be to drive an EV on my loop with an amp meter. But there aren't any handy around here. At least not yet.
> 
> ...



Well good luck in your build.

ga2500ev


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

> It's looking like you want a Neighborhood EV instead of a true EV. Still may be better to target a better top range.


Actually, I started by looking at the Zap, and then some NEVs.
I wasn't sure about the Zaps safety (not that a Bug is built Ford tough, but it feels safer than a Zap ;-) and it's ability on hills.
The NEV I looked at was cramped, making the Zap feel roomy. But the big problem with the NEV is the laws. In Oregon, NEVs (or LSVs low speed vehicles) are limited to 25 mph and roads posted 35 and less. I work on a 40 mph road.
I wouldn't be legally allowed to drive to work, which would be a problem. 

Also, the Zaps and NEVs are over $10k, and it looks like I could do better for less.

(And my wife had a Bug when she was younger, as did I, and likes the idea. A huge plus!!)

desiv

p.s. The people I talked to who own NEVs would say that they are "real" EVs.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

More charger questions.
The rusco chargers look nice.
I assume I'd want/need the timer option?
http://www.russcoev.com/ The SC18-120/72-156 model.
There's also this Octopus charger:
http://www.quickcharge.com/octopus.htm
http://02a27d4.netsolstores.com/octopuschargers.aspx
It says you can't overcharge and is basically 10 individual chargers in one, if I'm reading it right. How does this compare to the rusco?

Intesting thing about the rusco is that it will charge as low as 72v, but it needs a transformer option to go that low. The option costs more than another battery would though. 

Thanks 

desiv


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

OK, starting to narrow things down.
I think I've seen enough to make me lean towards 96V to start. I want to keep the batteries as simple as feasible, but I think 8 - 12V batteries should be fairly easy to mount in the bug. I'm still trying to leave it flexible enough that if I need/want to, I can fairly easily add some range/power.

So, here's my thoughts on parts:

Motor: D&D ES31B - 72V-144V 18HP (12HP cont @96V) Peak 49HP
Controller: Kelly 24V-120V 600A (cont 300A)
Batteries: 12v High Amp Hours (120+ AH, not sure on which ones yet..)
Charger: 8 - 12V 12A individual chargers, Japlar Schauer Model # JAC1212
DV/DC: Kelly DCDC96VTO12V (It's a 96V, but the operating range is 75V-130V)

Adapter/Clutch plate: Wilderness EV makes/sells these for the bug to the same motor

Throttle: PB-6 0-5000 ohm
Contactor: Haven't looked at those yet.
Other stuff: Yes... 

That should give me a system starting at 96V (or 84V if I wimp out) and with range to 120V without major changes.

Thoughts so far?

Thanx,

desiv


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

I think we might try the kelly controller too. It seems like a nice unit for the price and as far as I know it doesn't cry like the curtis. I hate that sound.


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## Kreb (Apr 30, 2008)

Are there any concerns about beetle transmissions breaking under EV torque?


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Kreb said:


> Are there any concerns about beetle transmissions breaking under EV torque?


Well, I wasn't concerned until you mentioned it!! 



I haven't heard about any problems, and there are quite a few beetle conversions. Probably because most of the conversions are fairly low power???

desiv


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## big.al (May 15, 2008)

Kreb said:


> Are there any concerns about beetle transmissions breaking under EV torque?



HIGHLY doubtful... although I have no first-hand knowledge of EV motors, I have lots of experience with A-C VWs and their trannies.

For example:
if you have an IRS VW (1969-1979, the ones with 4 CV joints to the wheels) the motors of those times were 53 HP and greater.

If you have a swingaxle VW (1968 or earlier, two CV joints to the wheels), these motors were 40 HP back to 25 HP.

Now I don't know how high the motors you're wanting to use, but the motor you specified was only 18 HP, so you should be good.

The only time in traditionally-powered VWs that you need to reinforce the tranny is when you're using a 100 HP and/or you're drag racing.

As I understand it, you're not supposed to be doing either of those. 


I'm looking at a similar conversion some good information is also there on clutch and adapters.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

Don't forget that the 18hp is continuous. The peak HP will be 2-4 times higher than that.


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## alnvilma (May 6, 2008)

Desiv,
It's like you're my brother! I'm thinking along the exact same lines of interest/expense/capability/vehicle and, I live in Aloha!
Thanks for doing all that research for me!
There is no shortage of bug parts although I also considered;
Toyota Starlet, Chevette, Pinto, Metro, Escort and Justy because they are near disposable.
I hope to have an all-weather 20 mile commuter when I give up riding on 2 wheels (scooter)
Alan


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## big.al (May 15, 2008)

onesojourner said:


> Don't forget that the 18hp is continuous. The peak HP will be 2-4 times higher than that.


Good info to know!

Even though... that's only 72 hp peak. If you don't attempt to drag race with it, you'll be ok.

By the way, I forgot to add in my previous post... The upsides and downsides of the different trannies in a-c VWs.

*IRS good points:*
* If the tranny goes bad, it's easier to replace with simple shop tools because of the 4 CV joints. 
* Rebuilt IRS trannies are cheaper than rebuilt swingaxle trannies.

The most likely thing to go bad will be the CV joints when the cv boots rip and dirt gets in to the CVs. 

*Swingaxle good points:* 
* only two CVs and the boots are split so you don't have to remove the axles to replace them.
* stronger case that takes abuse more than the IRS case.

Bad points are that if you have to change out the swingaxle, you have to take apart the entire rear end of the car (wheels, brakes and everything else).

*So,* for normal city driving with no drag racing, I'm going to be using an IRS... just my opinion though.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

alnvilma said:


> Desiv,
> It's like you're my brother! I'm thinking along the exact same lines of interest/expense/capability/vehicle and, I live in Aloha!
> Thanks for doing all that research for me!
> There is no shortage of bug parts although I also considered;
> ...


Great! The only problem will be finding a bug here in the Pacific Northwest without too much rust.  I'm starting my Bug search now. If I find a great deal, I'll jump on it, but I'm in no real rush. I have to do some landscaping, and then some cleaning out of the garage before I can really start this project. I'm still hoping to be working on it (and maybe done) by August.

Desi


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Going to look at a 1969 beetle "in good condition" with a CAM problem tomorrow.
Hopefully, we agree on the phrase "in good condition". 

desiv


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

You are lucky. I see tons of air cooled VWs on the samba in the north west. they are much harder to find out here.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Well, didn't get that one.
It looked nice from the front, but there was no back seat, and apparently there had been an engine fire, and it was slightly "out of line" on all the doors.

Other than that, it was in good shape..

Well, no headliner, no carpet, some rust, front seats pretty bad..

But other than that. 

I might just have to adjust my entry level price a bit. So, still looking.

desiv


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## Dan53 (Jun 1, 2008)

This is my first post, I came on here to research converting a Beetle and was happy to see this thread! I restore cars for a living, and mainly Volkswagens. I think that you're not going to find a Beetle in good shape for the price you're hoping for. They've gone up in recent years, and one that doesn't need some sort of interior or exterior restoration on it would sell for $3,000 minimum I should think, and of course $5,000 and up is very usual. At any rate, I look forward to hearing about your experience, and always try www.thesamba.com. What I've learned from having a hobby in the VW field is to never expect the right car to come to you. You might have to do some traveling. 

Dan


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Dan53 said:


> I think that you're not going to find a Beetle in good shape for the price you're hoping for. They've gone up in recent years, and one that doesn't need some sort of interior or exterior restoration on it would sell for $3,000 minimum I should think, and of course $5,000 and up is very usua.


I didn't know they'd gone up, but what I'm seeing, you're probably right.
I can get cars that need lots of work for $1200 or great looking bugs for $3k and up.

Unfortunately, that probably kills my ev plans. 

Oh well, I'll keep looking.

desiv


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## Mustang101 (Apr 17, 2008)

If your heart isn't set on a VW beetle you might try to find another cheap car. I was originally thinking about converting a beetle but then I found a 94 Camaro Z28 for $600.00 It didn't have a motor or transmition, but I didn't want them. I spent $800.00 on new rims and tires. $1400.00 for a donor car that is in great condition.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

I found this qoute on evalbum and was hoping someone could help me understand it:

"And the Kelly controller is also grounded through the J2 connector grounds to the B-, which means you can't use the trucks batt system to power the controller. So I have a second 12V batt."

I don't understand why the controler couldn't be connected just like the stereo, same power and ground???

Thanks 

desiv


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

that sounds strange to me. maybe he just needs a second battery to keep up with all the stuff he is running.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

"And the Kelly controller is also grounded through the J2 connector grounds to the B-, which means you can't use the trucks batt system to power the controller. So I have a second 12V batt."


this is to keep the 2 electrical systems separated(traction pack and 12v ).this is not only a good idea but a requirement for certification in some places.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> this is to keep the 2 electrical systems separated(traction pack and 12v ).this is not only a good idea but a requirement for certification in some places.


So, what are the risks/issues of not having them separated?

desiv


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

desiv said:


> So, what are the risks/issues of not having them separated?
> 
> desiv


Depending on the design, the controller could explode and also that if you did not seperate them you would full pack voltage flowing through the car chassis and it could kill you. Always follow the directions to the letter when it comes to controller setup and power distrobution because those are things that are the key to an EV and should never have shortcuts taken on them.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Depending on the design, the controller could explode and also that if you did not separate them you would full pack voltage flowing through the car chassis and it could kill you. Always follow the directions to the letter when it comes to controller setup and power distribution because those are things that are the key to an EV and should never have shortcuts taken on them.


OK, so why have I never seen this mentioned before? This sounds like a big deal. I've seen the part about not grounding the high voltage to the car body, but I haven't seen alot of people who mention that they have a separate battery for their controller?

What does this mean for DC/DC converters to charge the batteries?
Should I not use them, because they would connect the grounds?
Would I have to get 2, one for the accessories and one for the controller?

Is this just the Kelly controllers?

Thanks

desiv

p.s. I can see now why there aren't more of these EVs on the road. The more you get involved, the more difficult it gets. In less than a month, I've gone from the idea of an easy to install kit to a much more complicated system. And if I hadn't been randomly browsing, I wouldn't have discovered some of the issues. And when the results are possible death, it's probably a good idea to get it right.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

if a dc/dc converter fails,it should fail off meaning no power flowing through it after failure.most controllers should be able to use the cars 12v system to "turn on" through the use of a contactor,but do not draw power from the 12v sytem through them to operate the drive system.in a way this isolates the 2 systems.if i am incorrect ,please someone else chime in.this is an important subject.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I believe its only the Kelly Controller that requires a seperate power source, and they actually have one you can buy on their website, the 24 volt DC-DC converter. DC-DC converters are isolated so they do not actually connect the full pack voltage to the chassis. They are the safest way to use your pack voltage to power the 12 volt system of your car, so I recommend using DC-DC coverters.

So if you use the Kelly Controller, you get the 24 volt DC-DC for the controller and the 12 volt DC-DC for the car's 12 volt system. I believe they recommend doing this because if you do mix the grounds the controller will cook, and I think they mention that somewhere on their site or the controller manual.

Controllers such as the Curtis and Alltrax do not require a seperate power source because they are built into the controller, but those circuits are quite expensive.

As for the kits, they usually have everything you need and are designed to be safely installed and have oodles of idiot protection. These kits come with instructions on how everything should be connected and any associated warnings/adivice on component placement. Kits are starting to become more readily availible and they seem to be the way to go for a first EV conversion.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> So if you use the Kelly Controller, you get the 24 volt DC-DC for the controller and the 12 volt DC-DC for the car's 12 volt system. I believe they recommend doing this because if you do mix the grounds the controller will cook, and I think they mention that somewhere on their site or the controller manual.


Ok, according to the Kelly webpage, the Kelly controller I'm looking at will run off of 8-30 volts, so I should just be able to get their 12 volt DC-DC converter, not the 24V.
So, would I need 2 of those DC-DC converters? One for the accessories (which are grounded to the body???) and one for the controller?
Would I still need a separate battery for the controller, or will the DC-DC be enough?

Or ??????

The model I am looking at is the KDH12600 here:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/High-Voltage-DC-Motor-Controller.html

The DC/DC converter I am looking at is this one:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=10&product_id=199

Thanx,

desiv

p.s. As for the kits I saw, neither of the kits had any DC/DC converters. The first kit used an Alltrax or Curtis tho. The second (cloudev) used a Kelly, and I see nothing in the kit that would give any seperation for the controller.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I'd say the best thing to do would be to e-mail Kelly Controller and ask them about that. One DC-DC should be fine I would think if the controller can run off the 12 volts. When I first looked at the Kelly Controllers they only ran off 24 volts, so it appears they are made improvements which is always good to see. 

You're right about kits not including the DC-DC. I never noticed that before.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

OK, I sent an email off to Kelly.
I'll let you know what they recommend.

desiv

p.s. Interesting, I just noticed on their site that they sell not just the controller, but also a mounted board with the controller, connector, contactor, and fuse all set up. No labor costs. Might be worth looking into that.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Heading up to look at another beetle tomorrow, so fingers crossed again.

But I saw this on craigslist for our area:
http://portland.craigslist.org/yam/car/708206151.html
It's someone who's going to do EV conversions!!

Pretty neat. Hope it works for him.

desiv


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Got my bug! Step 1 done! It needs some work, but it's in fairly good shape.










Got it for $1000, so at least that part is still in budget.
It's a 75 Beetle. Just got it home.

desiv


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

congratulations! looks like it's in pretty decent shape.have fun!


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Ok, 
Suspension question.

The bug I just got has new shocks in the front, but not the rear. And I can see the rear is hanging a bit low now.

I know I need some more support, especially because of all the battery weight.

What would be the best option. I don't mean best as in "money is no object, let's get this car hopping!!!", but best as in "what's the best for the money to handle the weight."

I'm not a car guy, so I'm not familiar with all the options.

I know there are "air shocks" and "gas shocks" and I read something about coils and springs, but I really know nothing about which is for what?

Any suggestions? 

I don't know when I'll be able to start the conversion, so something I could buy and use now AND when I convert would be a plus....

Thanx,

desiv

p.s. As to when I will start the conversion, I'm hoping soon, like within a month or two, but life has a way of changing plans.


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## onesojourner (May 6, 2008)

man that looks like a great car for a 1000 bucks.


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

desiv said:


> The bug I just got has new shocks in the front, but not the rear. And I can see the rear is hanging a bit low now.
> 
> I know I need some more support, especially because of all the battery weight.


Shock dampeners don't support vehicle weight - the springs do. The shocks just dampen the springs so they don't keep springing after you've gone over a bump 

You'll need to upgrade the springs and some ball joints to carry the extra weight.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

desiv said:


> Ok,
> Suspension question.
> 
> The bug I just got has new shocks in the front, but not the rear. And I can see the rear is hanging a bit low now.
> ...


I would suggest these adjustable coil-over gas shocks for the rear:

http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=201_204_205&products_id=2490

You can set them for whatever ride height you want with the weight you currently have on the car. They also allow you to carry much more weight and are quite easy to install. One downside is that if you have no extra weight, they can ride a little bit stiff even on the lowest setting. This is much more pronounced on the front of a VW bug then the rear (since the engine and tranny are back there).

When you convert, just dial them up as you add batteries in the back. If the front gets too saggy, just put a pair up there as well.

EDIT: Whoops! Is it a super beetle or a standard beetle (does the spare tire lay flat or at an angle)? If it is a super beetle, then the front uses McPherson struts. You can get stronger springs for them instead.


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

Manntis said:


> Shock dampeners don't support vehicle weight - the springs do. The shocks just dampen the springs so they don't keep springing after you've gone over a bump
> 
> You'll need to upgrade the springs and some ball joints to carry the extra weight.


Springs? In a classic bug?

No springs back there. It is a torsion bar suspension. The rear is sagging because the torsion bar needs to be reset (which they normally do every 10-20 years). Any decent tire shop should be able to do this for you. 

Or go get a Chilton or Haynes manual and follow the directions. You will need jackstands, some big sockets/wrenches, and two jacks to make it easier.

I still suggest the rear coil-overs if you are adding any more weight to the back seat or rear of the car. People have 'twisted' their torsion bars before with too much weight... there is a reason that the guys that slap big engines in old bugs all use them.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

Ok, 

So, coil over gas shocks sounds reasonable.
And I'll check on the torsion bar.

Do I need to worry about the Ball Joints?

It's a Beetle, not a Super Beetle.

Thanx,

desiv

p.s. Yeah, we're heading out for some manuals tomorrow. I also want a copy of the guide for the complete idiot. I had a copy of that YEARS ago when I had my bug and I loved that one.  Car-wise, I am their target audience!


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## VDubber (Jun 2, 2008)

desiv said:


> Ok,
> Do I need to worry about the Ball Joints?
> 
> It's a Beetle, not a Super Beetle.


Not yet. But do not try to stuff half your batteries up there, like some have. Beefing up the front ball joints is actually pretty involved. Best just to limit the front weight to a reasonable level. 

I myself am planing on running 200 pounds (2x12V or 4x6V) in front, 400 on the back seat, and 100 each on both sides of the motor in my bug. This is for a 96V setup. Once I plop two people in the front seats, the car should be nicely balanced - with a little extra rear weight. This will keep the steering nice and responsive.

The super beetle handles better, but the standard beetle is cheaper/easier to fix. So good choice in my book


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## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

VDubber said:


> Springs? In a classic bug?
> 
> No springs back there. It is a torsion bar suspension. The rear is sagging because the torsion bar needs to be reset (which they normally do every 10-20 years). Any decent tire shop should be able to do this for you.


A torsion bar is a spring - just not a coil spring.


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## desiv (May 20, 2008)

I have a DC-DC converter question.
I am looking at this model:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=10&product_id=199

It's a 96V model, but the "operating range" is 75V-130V, so I figure it'll give me some room to add batteries.
But, I see it's output is listed as 12V. Which sounds right to me, however I've seen people say that their converters give off 13V or 14V to charge the accessory battery...

So, is this converter OK? 

Thanx,

desiv


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