# [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to 
build an electric vehicle?

By MANY I mean MANY.

Not 2 or three.

Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.

For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle project 
at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but little 
external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear 
flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around 
the perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as 
afforded or scavenged.


Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.

1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle 
with one or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add 
motors.
2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means 
batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small 
wires.
3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you have 
49 more.
4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit and still 
have amps for all circuits be low.
5. All parts can be lower cost and purchased for normal mass production 
sources for electronics (although there are more of them) because each 
part takes lesss amps.
6. as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle 
(because you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)
7. You can run a few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or 
efficiency and then if you need more power use all the motors - on the 
fly!
8. Cooling many small motors might be easier than one large one.
9. Most small dc motors are also generators so braking recapture is 
easy.

10. I might be able to recharge all batteries at once by designing a 
system to spin the power wheel on a jack with the drive motors all 
connected thus recharging all individual motor battery circuits at home 
without having to explicitly design a sequenced charger for each motor 
battery circuit.

Now I realize there are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out 
endlessly and make THAT the primary subject of this thread. That's not 
the reason I am doing this. Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue 
for me as I want SOME kind of electic vehicle that will run - even if 
poorly- from day one until I can add capacity.

ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would it 
take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface 
streets.
Who can chime in one that?

I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for 
me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too 
numerous to go into.

I just wondered if anyone has tried this approach.

It is basically what the new tesla did with batteries for their supercar 
(hundreds of tiny mass market batteries) except I want to do it with 
batteries AND motors.

Also I have been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and 
efficiency of say 100 toy electric motors compared to one big car 
electric motor.

Anyone want to help firgure it out?

I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power wheel depending on 
which motors turn out to be best cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio. 
Eventually all three wheels could be power wheels allowing all kinds of 
special control of course but initially just one.

The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time telling 
me how it won't be perfect!

PLEASE waste time with calculations of how many motors it might take or 
any websites you find that have motors that might useful.

My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not performance 
but of course that could change as I build it adding higher performance 
motors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy. I can 
add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally 
$20 at a time.

The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for super 
cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy electric 
motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of motors 
for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.

And while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I 
have NO problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each 
and one cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for 
recharging and mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one 
handle so I can control all motors at once. And there is no 
electrocution dangers.

Or controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors 
together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole 
bunch of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding 
from the vairable output of one ir led all enclosed in a 
box.(possibilites are endless)

I have been trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper 
toy motors but it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please 
post!

Some of the more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have 
incredible power to weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.

I just want a good price and power numbers for analysis.

Thoughts and

SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.

Www.Ikickgas.com


www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Go for it! When you have a working model be sure to show it off. We 
would all love to see it go. The idea is worth at least a try. Don't 
continue to talk, go build it.

Pete : )





> GWMobile wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to
> > build an electric vehicle?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GWMobile" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.


> Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to
> build an electric vehicle?
>
> By MANY I mean MANY.

> Well, yes. OFF the Electric Car thing a tad, Trains, like we have in the 
> Least Coast, a 10 car Metro North Commuter train sports one 185 hp series 
> DC motor for EVery axle. Antrak 8 motors, AC for Acela Express, 4 BIG ones 
> on a AEM-7 locomotive. Hundred years ago the Pennsy went with one BIG ass 
> DC series motor in the body of the loco, commected to the wheels with 
> siderods,counter balances, like a steamer, very picturesque at speed!

Of couse space and weight isn't a big issue on trains, and being run on 
'stench cords.( over head wires.) Oh, it's one of lifes pleasures cranking 
on the power and seeing almost no sag on a 25k volt overhead as you help 
people make up their minds where they are going to sit<G>!The modern trains 
are a maze of electronics to control multiple motors, money is relatively 
little object here. Trains are a VERY expensive hobby! Not to mention the 
mechanical complexity of multiple motors on a road vehicle.

For YEARS, in my deformatibve EV years I went with two motors, one for 
each rear wheel. It was natures' most perfect differential! Far as I know 
one of my examples COULD still be running around in Central Taiwan, where I 
sold it. Mr Lee? Got yur ears on<g>?Ha Ha "Lee" is the most common Taiwanese 
Surname.I'm sure the batteries are shot by now?

Nopwadaze with good Zillas and whatnot, it simplifyes the car's 
construction, for the Rest of Us. For a grocery getter, go fur car, one 
motor works fine.

> Not 2 or three.
>
> Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.

> Horrors!Checking EVERY motor, IF it were DC??

> For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle project
> at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but little
> external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear
> flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around
> the perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as
> afforded or scavenged.
>
I guess?

> Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.
>
> 1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle
> with one or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add
> motors.
> 2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means
> batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small
> wires.
> 3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you have
> 49 more.
> 4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit and still
> have amps for all circuits be low.
> 5. All parts can be lower cost and purchased for normal mass production
> sources for electronics (although there are more of them) because each
> part takes lesss amps.
> 6. as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle
> (because you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)
> 7. You can run a few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or
> efficiency and then if you need more power use all the motors - on the
> fly!
> 8. Cooling many small motors might be easier than one large one.
> 9. Most small dc motors are also generators so braking recapture is

> easy.

> You'd have a rat's nest of motors , controllers, wiring! Any room left 
> over for passengers, freight?


> 10. I might be able to recharge all batteries at once by designing a
> system to spin the power wheel on a jack with the drive motors all
> connected thus recharging all individual motor battery circuits at home
> without having to explicitly design a sequenced charger for each motor
> battery circuit.

A mechanical nightmare, thou.

> Now I realize there are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out
> endlessly and make THAT the primary subject of this thread. That's not
> the reason I am doing this. Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue
> for me as I want SOME kind of electic vehicle that will run - even if
> poorly- from day one until I can add capacity.
>
> ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would it
> take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface
> streets.
> Who can chime in one that?

> But your "unused" motors are a drag, unless you have a mechanical 
> disconnect. MORE complexity!

> I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for
> me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too
> numerous to go into.
>
> I just wondered if anyone has tried this approach.
>
> It is basically what the new tesla did with batteries for their supercar
> (hundreds of tiny mass market batteries) except I want to do it with
> batteries AND motors.

Easier with a zillion cells; you solder them together ONCE and they 
go for the ride,.
>
> Also I have been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and
> efficiency of say 100 toy electric motors compared to one big car
> electric motor.
>
> Anyone want to help firgure it out?
>
Nice Try! Not meaning to "Diss" you, it shows creative thinking. God! 
We need it nowadaze!

> I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power wheel depending on
> which motors turn out to be best cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio.
> Eventually all three wheels could be power wheels allowing all kinds of
> special control of course but initially just one.
>
> The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time telling
> me how it won't be perfect!
>
> PLEASE waste time with calculations of how many motors it might take or
> any websites you find that have motors that might useful.
>
> My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not performance
> but of course that could change as I build it adding higher performance
> motors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy. I can
> add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally
> $20 at a time.
>
> The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for super
> cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy electric
> motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of motors
> for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.

And that's about what they are WORTH! They would wear out and die by 
the dozens!
>
> And while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I
> have NO problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each
> and one cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for
> recharging and mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one
> handle so I can control all motors at once. And there is no
> electrocution dangers.
>
> Or controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors
> together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole
> bunch of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding
> from the vairable output of one ir led all enclosed in a
> box.(possibilites are endless)
>
> I have been trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper
> toy motors but it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please
> post!
>
> Some of the more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have
> incredible power to weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.
>
> I just want a good price and power numbers for analysis.
>
> Thoughts and
>
> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.

OK ya got them above.

Seeya

Bob
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for
> me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too
> numerous to go into.
>
Wow, talk about doing things the hard way. Think about all the things you are trying to figure out to get this done. All you need to get a small three wheeler going 30 mph is one of the easy to purchase and install e-bike hub motor kits. Get one of the higher powered ones and over volt it a bit. Trying to get 50 toy motors to work together sounds like a nightmare. You are likely to end up spending just as much money, way more time, and end up with something much less reliable going this route. I think in the end you would find that your list of pro's would be far out weighed by the cons. 

The interesting thing about motors and batteries is that you can tell a lot by weight. The amount of power you can get out of a motor in general is comparable to the weight of copper that the electricity is going through and the amount of power you can get out of batteries is generally proportional to the weight when you are dealing with the same chemistry.

So if you are looking to replace a 60 lb ADC 6.7 inch motor with a bunch of toy motors you will need roughly 60 lbs worth of the toy motors, and if you are replacing 400 lbs worht of 12 volt deep cycle batteries you will need about 400 lbs worth of smaller lead acid batteries. This is a very loose rule of thumb, but should help you ball park what you are proposing.

damon


_________________________________________________________________
The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think it can be done like many small batteries can be made as one. but 
I think it is ultimately much simpler to make one

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well this is CERTAINLY THINKING OUT OF THE BOX !!! we have Cushman scooters at work the 3 wheel type that you stand behind to drive and have a flatbed of 2'x 4' for cargo . they use a small controller and operate on 24vdc . you could use those controllers and maybe surplus aircraft motor/generator from the old piston engines or early jets these are relatively cheap . the Cushman at work are belt driven but you could make a large motor mount around a fly wheel it would work and it would not take a huge group to make it go good and still be upgradeable with relatively cheap front end cost . and the controller for these are mechanical / electrical .

I think Roland has a business that deals with golf carts they would have the same or like components that you may be able to buy cheaply wholesale or used !!! ask him he may be able to steer you to used golf cart places or to wholesale places if you buy as a business ??? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: GWMobile<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.


Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to 
build an electric vehicle?

By MANY I mean MANY.

Not 2 or three.

Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.

For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle project 
at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but little 
external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear 
flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around 
the perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as 
afforded or scavenged.


Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.

1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle 
with one or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add 
motors.
2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means 
batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small 
wires.
3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you have 
49 more.
4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit and still 
have amps for all circuits be low.
5. All parts can be lower cost and purchased for normal mass production 
sources for electronics (although there are more of them) because each 
part takes lesss amps.
6. as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle 
(because you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)
7. You can run a few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or 
efficiency and then if you need more power use all the motors - on the 
fly!
8. Cooling many small motors might be easier than one large one.
9. Most small dc motors are also generators so braking recapture is 
easy.

10. I might be able to recharge all batteries at once by designing a 
system to spin the power wheel on a jack with the drive motors all 
connected thus recharging all individual motor battery circuits at home 
without having to explicitly design a sequenced charger for each motor 
battery circuit.

Now I realize there are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out 
endlessly and make THAT the primary subject of this thread. That's not 
the reason I am doing this. Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue 
for me as I want SOME kind of electic vehicle that will run - even if 
poorly- from day one until I can add capacity.

ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would it 
take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface 
streets.
Who can chime in one that?

I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for 
me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too 
numerous to go into.

I just wondered if anyone has tried this approach.

It is basically what the new tesla did with batteries for their supercar 
(hundreds of tiny mass market batteries) except I want to do it with 
batteries AND motors.

Also I have been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and 
efficiency of say 100 toy electric motors compared to one big car 
electric motor.

Anyone want to help firgure it out?

I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power wheel depending on 
which motors turn out to be best cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio. 
Eventually all three wheels could be power wheels allowing all kinds of 
special control of course but initially just one.

The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time telling 
me how it won't be perfect!

PLEASE waste time with calculations of how many motors it might take or 
any websites you find that have motors that might useful.

My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not performance 
but of course that could change as I build it adding higher performance 
motors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy. I can 
add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally 
$20 at a time.

 The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for super 
cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy electric 
motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of motors 
for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.

And while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I 
have NO problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each 
and one cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for 
recharging and mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one 
handle so I can control all motors at once. And there is no 
electrocution dangers.

Or controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors 
together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole 
bunch of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding 
from the vairable output of one ir led all enclosed in a 
box.(possibilites are endless)

I have been trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper 
toy motors but it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please 
post!

Some of the more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have 
incredible power to weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.

I just want a good price and power numbers for analysis.

Thoughts and

SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.

Www.Ikickgas.com<http://www.ikickgas.com/>


www.GlobalBoiling.com<http://www.globalboiling.com/> for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com<http://www.electricquakes.com/> daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

the idea of 3 wheel motors from e bike is great then if you want more power you could go for bob's idea or a motor for each wheel but use golf cart motors they are built fot that use have 1 mechinical control linkage and 3 small controllers ??
----- Original Message ----- 
From: GWMobile<mailto:[email protected]> 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> 
Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.


Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to 
build an electric vehicle?

By MANY I mean MANY.

Not 2 or three.

Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.

For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle project 
at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but little 
external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear 
flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around 
the perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as 
afforded or scavenged.


Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.

1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle 
with one or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add 
motors.
2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means 
batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small 
wires.
3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you have 
49 more.
4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit and still 
have amps for all circuits be low.
5. All parts can be lower cost and purchased for normal mass production 
sources for electronics (although there are more of them) because each 
part takes lesss amps.
6. as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle 
(because you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)
7. You can run a few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or 
efficiency and then if you need more power use all the motors - on the 
fly!
8. Cooling many small motors might be easier than one large one.
9. Most small dc motors are also generators so braking recapture is 
easy.

10. I might be able to recharge all batteries at once by designing a 
system to spin the power wheel on a jack with the drive motors all 
connected thus recharging all individual motor battery circuits at home 
without having to explicitly design a sequenced charger for each motor 
battery circuit.

Now I realize there are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out 
endlessly and make THAT the primary subject of this thread. That's not 
the reason I am doing this. Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue 
for me as I want SOME kind of electic vehicle that will run - even if 
poorly- from day one until I can add capacity.

ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would it 
take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface 
streets.
Who can chime in one that?

I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for 
me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too 
numerous to go into.

I just wondered if anyone has tried this approach.

It is basically what the new tesla did with batteries for their supercar 
(hundreds of tiny mass market batteries) except I want to do it with 
batteries AND motors.

Also I have been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and 
efficiency of say 100 toy electric motors compared to one big car 
electric motor.

Anyone want to help firgure it out?

I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power wheel depending on 
which motors turn out to be best cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio. 
Eventually all three wheels could be power wheels allowing all kinds of 
special control of course but initially just one.

The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time telling 
me how it won't be perfect!

PLEASE waste time with calculations of how many motors it might take or 
any websites you find that have motors that might useful.

My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not performance 
but of course that could change as I build it adding higher performance 
motors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy. I can 
add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally 
$20 at a time.

The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for super 
cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy electric 
motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of motors 
for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.

And while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I 
have NO problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each 
and one cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for 
recharging and mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one 
handle so I can control all motors at once. And there is no 
electrocution dangers.

Or controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors 
together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole 
bunch of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding 
from the vairable output of one ir led all enclosed in a 
box.(possibilites are endless)

I have been trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper 
toy motors but it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please 
post!

Some of the more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have 
incredible power to weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.

I just want a good price and power numbers for analysis.

Thoughts and

SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.

Www.Ikickgas.com<http://www.ikickgas.com/>


www.GlobalBoiling.com<http://www.globalboiling.com/> for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com<http://www.electricquakes.com/> daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the replies guys.

>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
> OK ya got them above.

Where ?
I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors and or small 
batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level roads.
Did I miss the analysis?

>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>
> OK ya got them above.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>>

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think it is like making an omelet for two from quails eggs. The total
weight of these motors in relation to their output is high. The
overhead, shaft,bearings,case is a higher percentage of the motor as it
gets smaller.


But you could take an aggregate approach on the calculations. I could
look it up but lets say you need 2hp to go 30mph with the weight
vehicle you have planned.

1 hp = 746 watts so 1492 watts assuming 80% eff motors yields 1865
Watts
Assuming 12 volt toy motors that is 155Amps 10 motors at 15 A 12V?
pretty big!

what about electric scooter motors 36V? only 52Amps and they can handle
5A each so 10 of those might do the trick.

Maybe the best idea is just to go here http://www.surpluscenter.com/

and pick something like this

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007122211500874&catname=electric&item=10-2355

or a high voltage low amp A123 pack might go with something like this

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007122211500874&item=10-1751&catname=electric



_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> GWMobile wrote:
> > Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to
> > build an electric vehicle?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just like an overgrown slot car - powered by Mabuchi! ;-)

I might look at using a handful of medium-sized motors rather than a 
trunkful of tiny ones. What large appliances use universal (series) motors? 
You want something that's typically discarded because something besides the 
motor fails; that way you can scrounge at the landfill.

If you want a lower voltage drive, how about radiator fan motors from the 
junkyard? At least one E-bike used a Ford fan motor.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's hard to make an analysis without details to base it on.

As a swag, a small trike that is reasonably aerodynamic and light weight
can hit 30 mph with about 750 watts (motor output) so you need enough
whatever motors to equal about 700-800 watts.

You will need at least one battery. How many more yo need depends on how
much power the batteries can produce and how long (far) you want to go.

> Thanks for the replies guys.
>
>>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>> OK ya got them above.
>
> Where ?
> I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors and or small
> batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level roads.
> Did I miss the analysis?
>
>>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>>
>> OK ya got them above.
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob
>>>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I haven't looked at the rest of the answers here so forgive me if I dupliacte any.

I think the micro motors are going cost you too much in drive gears and other hardware etc.

You may consider using hand tool motors. You can get some at your local 'Habor Freight' store or other secondary outlet. At thrift shops you can find them lacking the batteries etc.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:07:55 -0500> To: [email protected]> From: [email protected]> CC: [email protected]> Subject: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.> > Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to > build an electric vehicle?> > By MANY I mean MANY.> > Not 2 or three.> > Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.> > For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle project > at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but little > external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear > flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around > the perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as > afforded or scavenged.> > > Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.> > 1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle > with one or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add !
> motors.> 2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means > batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small > wires.> 3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you have > 49 more.> 4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit and still > have amps for all circuits be low.> 5. All parts can be lower cost and purchased for normal mass production > sources for electronics (although there are more of them) because each > part takes lesss amps.> 6. as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle > (because you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)> 7. You can run a few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or > efficiency and then if you need more power use all the motors - on the > fly!> 8. Cooling many small motors might be easier than one large one.> 9. Most small dc motors are also generators so braking recapture is > easy.> > 10. I might be able to recharg!
e all batteries at once by designing a > system to spin the po!
wer whee
l on a jack with the drive motors all > connected thus recharging all individual motor battery circuits at home > without having to explicitly design a sequenced charger for each motor > battery circuit.> > Now I realize there are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out > endlessly and make THAT the primary subject of this thread. That's not > the reason I am doing this. Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue > for me as I want SOME kind of electic vehicle that will run - even if > poorly- from day one until I can add capacity.> > ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would it > take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface > streets.> Who can chime in one that?> > I want a three wheeler on the road I can build in the backyard. This for > me is the only realistic way to do it for a number of reasons too > numerous to go into.> > I just wondered if anyone has tried this approach.> > It is basically what the new tesla d!
id with batteries for their supercar > (hundreds of tiny mass market batteries) except I want to do it with > batteries AND motors.> > Also I have been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and > efficiency of say 100 toy electric motors compared to one big car > electric motor.> > Anyone want to help firgure it out?> > I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power wheel depending on > which motors turn out to be best cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio. > Eventually all three wheels could be power wheels allowing all kinds of > special control of course but initially just one.> > The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time telling > me how it won't be perfect!> > PLEASE waste time with calculations of how many motors it might take or > any websites you find that have motors that might useful.> > My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not performance > but of course that could change as I build it adding higher performance > m!
otors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy!
. I can 
> add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally > $20 at a time.> > The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for super > cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy electric > motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of motors > for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.> > And while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I > have NO problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each > and one cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for > recharging and mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one > handle so I can control all motors at once. And there is no > electrocution dangers.> > Or controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors > together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole > bunch of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding > from the vairable output of o!
ne ir led all enclosed in a > box.(possibilites are endless)> > I have been trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper > toy motors but it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please > post!> > Some of the more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have > incredible power to weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.> > I just want a good price and power numbers for analysis.> > Thoughts and> > SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.> > Www.Ikickgas.com> > > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming > and the melting poles.> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You have not made enough chioces to make an analysis. How heavy will your vehicle be? How strong? what load capacity? You need a design before you know all that.

You also need to pick out a motor that you can that many of, and figure out the torque and power output. You also must check the weight. We don't know what you have a vailable to you, that you would want.

The little ones are less efficient than larger motors, so it is just possible to not get what you want from that size of motor. To make up for it you would need to get high efficiency motors, and these will cost you more than the same power from a larger motor. For the price of 500, $3 motors, you can get a very nice $1500 motor.

It is better to save your money up and buy your pieces when you can, rather than dedicate your project to buying something each and every paycheck. 

Personally, I have the same problem. I am now trying to design the cheepest design for my choice of specs that I can. I'm also limited by the tools I have, can afford and have the room for. It is much cheeper than my Taddy at www.detalidon.com

When I get it done, I'll post it in images and add it to my website. errr, When I get the silly website done, the new pages I mean.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:43:38 -0500> To: [email protected]> From: [email protected]> CC: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.> > Thanks for the replies guys.> > >> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.> > OK ya got them above.> > Where ?> I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors and or small > batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level roads.> Did I miss the analysis?> > >> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.> >> > OK ya got them above.> >> > Seeya> >> > Bob> >>> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming > and the melting poles.> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Radiator fan motors might be a great idea.
Dc and mass produced. Bigger than a toy motor and probably built with 
lightweight componenets.
Thanks for that.

Probably some factory on alibaba.com that is offering new ones by the 
boatload for cheap if they are used in car parts.



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> 
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well the START is for 30mph.
So I want to plan on adding more of the same system as I go up in 
speed.

> All you need to get a small three wheeler going 30 mph is one of the 
> easy to purchase and install e-bike hub motor kits.

Ugh about below power equals weight of mower conclusion below.

If that is true then the only benefit of small motors might be they cost 
less per pound if indeed they do.

But at least that's easy to calculate based on shipping weight!

> The amount of power you can get out of a motor in general is 
> comparable to the weight of copper that the electricity is going 
> through and the amount of power you can get out of batteries is 
> generally proportional to the weight when you are dealing with the same 
> chemistry.
>
>

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the analysis. That kind of thing is really helpful.
If 2 hp is a good number for 30 mph on level that gives me a good 
start.

By the way does anyone know how to measure hp?
It is the power to lift a certain weight a certain height in a certain 
amount of time right?

I want to directly measure the hp of some small motors by having them 
raise some weight with a string.




> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I think it is like making an omelet for two from quails eggs. The total
> > weight of these motors in relation to their output is high. The
> > overhead, shaft,bearings,case is a higher percentage of the motor as it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder theoritically shouldn't a bunch of small motors who have more 
of their magnets closer to the field of their windings on average have 
higher efficiency than larger motors which have more of their windings 
further way from the magnets because of their larger size?

I mean a small motor is encapsulated totally within .25 inch of its 
winding and magnet field.

A large motor might have parts of windings that are several inches away 
from the magnets.

Isn't that logical?

> All things being equal; the bigger a motor, the cheaper it is per
> horsepower, and the higher its efficiency. But all things rarely are
> equal; there are so many differences in the specifics that this is hard
> to apply -- a well-made small motor can beat a badly-made big one.
>
>
> But, there are some pretty good small motors. Some of the ones used by
> R/C modellers have amazing power-to-weight ratios.

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You know I am not so sure its true that weight of the small motors is 
higher because thickness of casing walls etc must expand exponenetially 
as size goes up. Small motors casings can be made of shaped tin.
Now small motor friction issues might be more but I don't know.



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I think it is like making an omelet for two from quails eggs. The total
> > weight of these motors in relation to their output is high. The
> > overhead, shaft,bearings,case is a higher percentage of the motor as it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's the kind of thing I was wondering.
Glad to see someone has done it.


I actually think some of the toys motors would last long time as long as 
no motor took more of its share of load and all were properly aligned.

I don't know about you but I put my electric toys through hell and those 
things keep going.


I wonder how much power say one hundred toy slot car motors or 99. Cents 
store toy car motors would put out if arranged around the inside hub of 
one wheel.

I have not been able to find any performance specifics on toy motors 
from china etc on alibaba.com except for basic size and volts etc but no 
total power.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> > GWMobile wrote:
> >> Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to
> >> build an electric vehicle?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

GW-

Your math doesn't work for axial-flux pancake motors like the ETEK---gap is
the same whether the motor is small or large.
Check out the smaller PMG motor as an example of what power you can deliver
continuously in a small package for your app.
As for examples of ganging lots of motors together to drive an EV, look at
Dave Cloud's formerly-ETEK-powered GEO.
It had been powered by 8 ETEK's chain-driving the rear end. Later, that was
expanded to 10 ETEKs.
Had fire not led to the demise of the motors, that vehicle would probably
have made the 100mph club with 96v and 10 ETEKs.
Unfortunately, the best it did in the 1/4 with ETEKs was with 8 of them and
achieving some 96mph and 14sec as I recall.

-MT

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of GWMobile
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.


I wonder theoritically shouldn't a bunch of small motors who have more 
of their magnets closer to the field of their windings on average have 
higher efficiency than larger motors which have more of their windings 
further way from the magnets because of their larger size?

I mean a small motor is encapsulated totally within .25 inch of its 
winding and magnet field.

A large motor might have parts of windings that are several inches away 
from the magnets.

Isn't that logical?

> All things being equal; the bigger a motor, the cheaper it is per
> horsepower, and the higher its efficiency. But all things rarely are
> equal; there are so many differences in the specifics that this is hard
> to apply -- a well-made small motor can beat a badly-made big one.
>
>
> But, there are some pretty good small motors. Some of the ones used by
> R/C modellers have amazing power-to-weight ratios.

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Edmunds Scientific, Marlin P Jones, and Herbach and Rademan all sell
little hobby motors, and even give specs for some of them.

I recall that there was an electric bicycle add on a few years ago
that used the same drive motor as the radiator cooling fans for big
rigs, 24 volts and 500watts peak or so, IIRC.

Z



> GWMobile <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well the START is for 30mph.
> > So I want to plan on adding more of the same system as I go up in
> > speed.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>As for examples of ganging lots of motors together to drive an EV, look at=
>Dave Cloud's formerly-ETEK-powered GEO.>It had been powered by 8 ETEK's ch=
ain-driving the rear end. Later, that was>expanded to 10 ETEKs.Now look at =
the price of that experiment, 10 ETeks are way over $5000. You can get a eq=
uivelent efficency out of one newer warp motor and inlcude the LA batteries=
AND controllers for under 5k.



=





Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> From: [email protected]=
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13=
:09:28 -0800> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.> > GW->=
> Your math doesn't work for axial-flux pancake motors like the ETEK---gap=
is> the same whether the motor is small or large.> Check out the smaller P=
MG motor as an example of what power you can deliver> continuously in a sma=
ll package for your app.> As for examples of ganging lots of motors togethe=
r to drive an EV, look at> Dave Cloud's formerly-ETEK-powered GEO.> It had =
been powered by 8 ETEK's chain-driving the rear end. Later, that was> expan=
ded to 10 ETEKs.> Had fire not led to the demise of the motors, that vehicl=
e would probably> have made the 100mph club with 96v and 10 ETEKs.> Unfortu=
nately, the best it did in the 1/4 with ETEKs was with 8 of them and> achie=
ving some 96mph and 14sec as I recall.> > -MT> > -----Original Message-----=
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Beh=
alf> Of GWMobile> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:48 AM> To: Electric =
Vehicle Discussion List> Cc: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL=
] Using many small electric motors.> > > I wonder theoritically shouldn't a=
bunch of small motors who have more > of their magnets closer to the field=
of their windings on average have > higher efficiency than larger motors w=
hich have more of their windings > further way from the magnets because of =
their larger size?> > I mean a small motor is encapsulated totally within .=
25 inch of its > winding and magnet field.> > A large motor might have part=
s of windings that are several inches away > from the magnets.> > Isn't tha=
t logical?> > > All things being equal; the bigger a motor, the cheaper it =
is per> > horsepower, and the higher its efficiency. But all things rarely =
are> > equal; there are so many differences in the specifics that this is h=
ard> > to apply -- a well-made small motor can beat a badly-made big one.> =
>> >> > But, there are some pretty good small motors. Some of the ones used=
by> > R/C modellers have amazing power-to-weight ratios.> > www.GlobalBoil=
ing.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming > and the melting =
poles.> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> > ____=
___________________________________________> For subscription options, see>=
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> > _____________________________=
__________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
i=92m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a=
difference.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=3Dtext_Cause_Effect
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Whatever theoretical advantage you have, you'd loose it in:
A) poorer quality construction
B) the smaller size makes precision MORE important. a 1/64" error is more
harmful to a tiny mtor thanit is to a 10hp motor
C) What do you figure the chances are that a cheap motor will have even
CLOSE to the same precision as a large motor, let alone exceed it enough
to compensate for B ?

I2R looses are your BIGGEST hit on efficiency. Small motors tend to have
WAY more resistance than big motors. When you figure that small motors
have less power, the power to losses ratio goes WAY up.

Add to the poor efficiency of small motors the extra looses in trying to
connect them together via gears, chains, etc. You end up WAY lowerer on
efficiency.


At any rate, this is pointless. Careful shopping can yield a 1hp motor
for under $100. That is far less than you will pay for a bunch of small
motors, plus the gears (or whatever) plus the motor mounting system, plus
the custom machining to make them work together.
It would probably cost you more even if someone GAVE you the small motors.

I paid about $75 for the last 24V 1.5hp motor I bought, and that included
shipping. Actually I bought three of them.
Anyways, this is pointless. Cheap small motors ha
>
> I wonder theoritically shouldn't a bunch of small motors who have more
> of their magnets closer to the field of their windings on average have
> higher efficiency than larger motors which have more of their windings
> further way from the magnets because of their larger size?
>
> I mean a small motor is encapsulated totally within .25 inch of its
> winding and magnet field.
>
> A large motor might have parts of windings that are several inches away
> from the magnets.
>
> Isn't that logical?
>
>> All things being equal; the bigger a motor, the cheaper it is per
>> horsepower, and the higher its efficiency. But all things rarely are
>> equal; there are so many differences in the specifics that this is hard
>> to apply -- a well-made small motor can beat a badly-made big one.
>>
>>
>> But, there are some pretty good small motors. Some of the ones used by
>> R/C modellers have amazing power-to-weight ratios.
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> As for examples of ganging lots of motors together to drive an EV, look 
> at
> Dave Cloud's formerly-ETEK-powered GEO.
Got a link?

> Check out the smaller PMG motor as an example of what power you can 
> deliver
> continuously in a small package for your app.

What's PMG?
Thanks!


www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well that's not bad at all.
I scale a few of those for some pretty good speed with a trike I'l bet.

What were you going to do with the 1.5 hp motors?

>
> At any rate, this is pointless. Careful shopping can yield a 1hp motor
> for under $100.

> I paid about $75 for the last 24V 1.5hp motor I bought, and that 
> included
> shipping.

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hp = rpm * torque / 5250

F=ma force = math times acceleration

V=Vo + 1/2 at^2 volocity = inital volocity + acceleration * time (in
seconds) squared

General physics
Decide on your acceleration and determine your mass and then graph
torque vs speed and work backwards thru the gear ratio to rpm and
torque. From there it is a simple matter to calculate the hp and
guessing effiency the watts.


I threw out the 2hp number from what I gathered as a bicycle like
device. A human can put out 1 hp for seconds, 1/2 hp for minutes and a
1/4hp or less for over an hour.

I have all kinds of books around here with Human Powered Vehicle
calculations and used those for a design of an enclosed tadpole trike.
If enclosed and aerodynamic, a hp is good, 2hp is capable of
acceleration with the added electric drive and up to 40mph.

My idea was to make a commuter pod. Electric assist would get you to
work or school out of the weather without breaking a sweat. The idea was
to take your gym clothes with you and get your excersize on the way
home. (Design of this is how I got into EV's.)

You'll like the next leap I took. Instead of having a long chain and a
multispeed transmission made of derailers, I thought i would make a
series plug in hybrid.
(The fuel cell runs on pizza and beer) I pedal a PM high eff generator
and if there is excess energy, it charges the battery, If there isn't
enough energy the battery assists.
During the stoplight I can continue pedalling which keeps the
ventalation fan going. I could learn to pedal at a constant rate
seperate from the accelerationand deceleration needs; and of course
there is regen braking to consider. (I had a few designs both
mechanical,electrical and gasseous)


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Well that's not bad at all.
> I scale a few of those for some pretty good speed with a trike I'l bet.
>
> What were you going to do with the 1.5 hp motors?

They were originally designed for battery powered lawnmowers, so one is
going on a robotic lawnmower I'm working on.

The other one is going on my trike.

The last is a spare incase either of the other two breaks/

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

HPVs can sustain speeds of 50 mph for an hour or more, and have reached
speeds of over 80mph briefly.

Electrathon vehicles sustain speeds of up to 40 mph for an hour using
about 1 hp.

It's impressive how fast you can go on very little power if you do your
homework.

> Hp = rpm * torque / 5250
>
> F=ma force = math times acceleration
>
> V=Vo + 1/2 at^2 volocity = inital volocity + acceleration * time (in
> seconds) squared
>
> General physics
> Decide on your acceleration and determine your mass and then graph
> torque vs speed and work backwards thru the gear ratio to rpm and
> torque. From there it is a simple matter to calculate the hp and
> guessing effiency the watts.
>
>
> I threw out the 2hp number from what I gathered as a bicycle like
> device. A human can put out 1 hp for seconds, 1/2 hp for minutes and a
> 1/4hp or less for over an hour.
>
> I have all kinds of books around here with Human Powered Vehicle
> calculations and used those for a design of an enclosed tadpole trike.
> If enclosed and aerodynamic, a hp is good, 2hp is capable of
> acceleration with the added electric drive and up to 40mph.
>
> My idea was to make a commuter pod. Electric assist would get you to
> work or school out of the weather without breaking a sweat. The idea was
> to take your gym clothes with you and get your excersize on the way
> home. (Design of this is how I got into EV's.)
>
> You'll like the next leap I took. Instead of having a long chain and a
> multispeed transmission made of derailers, I thought i would make a
> series plug in hybrid.
> (The fuel cell runs on pizza and beer) I pedal a PM high eff generator
> and if there is excess energy, it charges the battery, If there isn't
> enough energy the battery assists.
> During the stoplight I can continue pedalling which keeps the
> ventalation fan going. I could learn to pedal at a constant rate
> seperate from the accelerationand deceleration needs; and of course
> there is regen braking to consider. (I had a few designs both
> mechanical,electrical and gasseous)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sure: http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_080/PMG_080.htm

Spec'd for 4HP (peak) at 24v...weighs but 7.5#
But costs $465

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of GWMobile
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 6:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.


> As for examples of ganging lots of motors together to drive an EV, look 
> at
> Dave Cloud's formerly-ETEK-powered GEO.
Got a link?

> Check out the smaller PMG motor as an example of what power you can 
> deliver
> continuously in a small package for your app.

What's PMG?
Thanks!


www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My first goal is a very similar enclosed fairng style reclining cycle 
unit with three wheels. The two would be very narrow though or have a 
lever that allows me to adjust the width of the wheels on the fly for 
street or sidewalks.

I would like to keep the appearance of pedals cycling to be able to use 
sidewalks etc as a bicycle and heck get some exercise if I wanted it.

Somewhere I had read the technical definition of one english horse power 
was the ability to raise a certain amount of weight a certain height.
I thought that would be useful to test power of toy small motors with 
fishing weights.



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > Hp = rpm * torque / 5250
> >
> > F=ma force = math times acceleration
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> GWMobile wrote:
> > Somewhere I had read the technical definition of one english horse power
> > was the ability to raise a certain amount of weight a certain height.
> > I thought that would be useful to test power of toy small motors with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zeke,

I think you are referring to the Sinclair Zeta (
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/vehicles/zeta.htm ), invented by Sir Clive
Sinclair, a man many years ahead of the game in electric transport. He
brought to market many firsts (including the digital pocket calculator) but
he managed to bankrupt his very well known but not terribly profitable
company, Sinclair Research, with the Sinclair C5, an electric tricycle, in
the 80's (see http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/vehicles/c5.htm ).

Much has been written about this fabulous inventor and as nice a chap as I
am sure he is (he always came across as the typical English gent on TV and
radio) I am sure he won't mind if I say he also invented the word 'geek'!

Regards, Martin Winlow

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: 22 December 2007 21:19
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.

Edmunds Scientific, Marlin P Jones, and Herbach and Rademan all sell little
hobby motors, and even give specs for some of them.

I recall that there was an electric bicycle add on a few years ago that used
the same drive motor as the radiator cooling fans for big rigs, 24 volts and
500watts peak or so, IIRC.

Z



> GWMobile <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Well the START is for 30mph.
> > So I want to plan on adding more of the same system as I go up in
> > speed.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or, more likely, he was thinking of the much more successful Zap (Zapp?) 
Bike and bike kits. Which used one or two motors (depending..), as I
recall these motors were originally designed as 24V radiator fan motors.

I believe they used the same motors sd the EV-Warrior. I have several of
these kicking around here and they certainly look like radiator fan
motors.

These (and the Zeta) all date back to about the same time frame, so I'm
not sure which one came first.

> Zeke,
>
> I think you are referring to the Sinclair Zeta (
> http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/vehicles/zeta.htm ), invented by Sir Clive
> Sinclair, a man many years ahead of the game in electric transport. He
> brought to market many firsts (including the digital pocket calculator)
> but
> he managed to bankrupt his very well known but not terribly profitable
> company, Sinclair Research, with the Sinclair C5, an electric tricycle, in
> the 80's (see http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/sinclair/vehicles/c5.htm ).
>
> Much has been written about this fabulous inventor and as nice a chap as I
> am sure he is (he always came across as the typical English gent on TV and
> radio) I am sure he won't mind if I say he also invented the word 'geek'!
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: 22 December 2007 21:19
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
>
> Edmunds Scientific, Marlin P Jones, and Herbach and Rademan all sell
> little
> hobby motors, and even give specs for some of them.
>
> I recall that there was an electric bicycle add on a few years ago that
> used
> the same drive motor as the radiator cooling fans for big rigs, 24 volts
> and
> 500watts peak or so, IIRC.
>
> Z
>
>


> GWMobile <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Well the START is for 30mph.
> >> So I want to plan on adding more of the same system as I go up in
> >> speed.
> ...


----------

