# [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> With the many different battery threads going on right now, I can't help but
> reflect on how many posts I have seen in the past where people try to say
> that batteries are not the problem with EVs. I also see many posts where
> people try to claim that EVs require less maintenance than an ICE. While
> the maintenance certainly can and fundamentally should be less due to the
> much simpler nature of an EV drivetrain, it often isn't true and in many
> casess the problems point directly back to the batteries.

Definitely. Batteries are a big problem right now.

> Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum crisis becomes one
> that people truly can not ignore, EVs will not be able to change the status
> quo. EVs will remain a niche that a few people will care passionately about
> and the rest of the world will ignore.
>
> If the economics of batteries and the technology behind them improve enough
> for cars to be made that are equivilant or better in price, performance, and
> convenience, then we have a fighting chance, but we are not even close yet.

The economics won't improve without economics of scale. That means starting
small and working up, increasing volumes over time. Look at Tesla's business
plan; I think they've got a good idea (except that they're using traditional
Li-Ion instead of LiFePO4).

EVs made by people like us will never become popular in the mainstream.
However, a mass-produced car with an integrated BMS that does more than our
current models could work. Imagine having a "Check Battery" light, sort of
like the "Check Engine" light on current ICEs; then the consumer wouldn't have
to worry about it, they'd just let the repair shop take care of it.

I'd say that EVs are currently a matter of economics. If some Lithium-based
battery were affordable, corporations could design affordable cars that get
better performance/economy than current ICEs, at affordable prices. All we
need is for battery prices to drop. They need to drop a lot, though, which
is why it'll be a while before EVs go mainstream.

> Take a look at John and his current Optima problems in his Sparrow. This
> is not the first set of Optimas that John has had for that thing and John
> is no newbie to batteries. I've watched him buy Lithiums for it, part of
> the Thundersky debacle, and NiCads which burned up in his fire. He has
> designed and produced his own battery monitors and shown that he is a person
> that is willing to do things right by designing and having special parts
> fabricated. Yet, years into this and after lots of effort and education on
> his part, he still can't get a break when it comes to batteries.
>
> Everyone knows that newbies will murder a pack of batteries, but I am often
> amazed to see people that have been at this a long time and know what they
> are doing still having issues with batteries. I don't believe it is the
> people. I put the blame on the batteries, and until there are batteries
> which meet the above criteria it's hard for me to see EVs going far beyond
> the dedicated hobbiest like those of us that frequent this list.

I think a battery system that's designed by a skilled engineering team has the
potential to be much more complete than one designed by a single engineer on
his spare time. Also, in commercial car design, battery systems will go through
a lot of testing, pointing out problems you don't notice when throwing
something together on your own.

In short, I think the problem is just money, not the innate technology. Better
battery technology could reduce the need for service and electronics and help
the economics, but it's not necessary, only very helpful.

-Morgan

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

AMEN Damon....
Rich in Virginia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:14 PM
Subject: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries


>
> With the many different battery threads going on right now, I can't help 
> but reflect on how many posts I have seen in the past where people try to 
> say that batteries are not the problem with EVs. I also see many posts 
> where people try to claim that EVs require less maintenance than an ICE. 
> While the maintenance certainly can and fundamentally should be less due 
> to the much simpler nature of an EV drivetrain, it often isn't true and in 
> many casess the problems point directly back to the batteries.
>
> Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum crisis becomes one 
> that people truly can not ignore, EVs will not be able to change the 
> status quo. EVs will remain a niche that a few people will care 
> passionately about and the rest of the world will ignore.
>
> If the economics of batteries and the technology behind them improve 
> enough for cars to be made that are equivilant or better in price, 
> performance, and convenience, then we have a fighting chance, but we are 
> not even close yet.
>
> Take a look at John and his current Optima problems in his Sparrow. This 
> is not the first set of Optimas that John has had for that thing and John 
> is no newbie to batteries. I've watched him buy Lithiums for it, part of 
> the Thundersky debacle, and NiCads which burned up in his fire. He has 
> designed and produced his own battery monitors and shown that he is a 
> person that is willing to do things right by designing and having special 
> parts fabricated. Yet, years into this and after lots of effort and 
> education on his part, he still can't get a break when it comes to 
> batteries.
>
> Everyone knows that newbies will murder a pack of batteries, but I am 
> often amazed to see people that have been at this a long time and know 
> what they are doing still having issues with batteries. I don't believe 
> it is the people. I put the blame on the batteries, and until there are 
> batteries which meet the above criteria it's hard for me to see EVs going 
> far beyond the dedicated hobbiest like those of us that frequent this 
> list.
>
> damon
> _________________________________________________________________
> Explore the seven wonders of the world
> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.7/992 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 
> 8:36 AM
>
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Batteries are the biggest obstacle to progress of electric vehicles. That 
was also true 100 years ago
and I expect it to be true 100 years n the future. I'm not discouraged. but 
regularly impresed and
encouraged by what people can do with electric vehicles in spite of the 
problems and limitations
imposed by batteries
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damon henry" <[email protected]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries


>
> With the many different battery threads going on right now, I can't help 
> but reflect on how many posts I have seen in the past where people try to 
> say that batteries are not the problem with EVs. I also see many posts 
> where people try to claim that EVs require less maintenance than an ICE. 
> While the maintenance certainly can and fundamentally should be less due 
> to the much simpler nature of an EV drivetrain, it often isn't true and in 
> many casess the problems point directly back to the batteries.
>
> Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum crisis becomes one 
> that people truly can not ignore, EVs will not be able to change the 
> status quo. EVs will remain a niche that a few people will care 
> passionately about and the rest of the world will ignore.
>
> If the economics of batteries and the technology behind them improve 
> enough for cars to be made that are equivilant or better in price, 
> performance, and convenience, then we have a fighting chance, but we are 
> not even close yet.
>
> Take a look at John and his current Optima problems in his Sparrow. This 
> is not the first set of Optimas that John has had for that thing and John 
> is no newbie to batteries. I've watched him buy Lithiums for it, part of 
> the Thundersky debacle, and NiCads which burned up in his fire. He has 
> designed and produced his own battery monitors and shown that he is a 
> person that is willing to do things right by designing and having special 
> parts fabricated. Yet, years into this and after lots of effort and 
> education on his part, he still can't get a break when it comes to 
> batteries.
>
> Everyone knows that newbies will murder a pack of batteries, but I am 
> often amazed to see people that have been at this a long time and know 
> what they are doing still having issues with batteries. I don't believe 
> it is the people. I put the blame on the batteries, and until there are 
> batteries which meet the above criteria it's hard for me to see EVs going 
> far beyond the dedicated hobbiest like those of us that frequent this 
> list.
>
> damon 


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom Shay Said
"Batteries are the biggest obstacle to progress of electric vehicles. 
That was also true 100 years ago
and I expect it to be true 100 years n the future. I'm not discouraged.
but regularly impresed and
encouraged by what people can do with electric vehicles in spite of the
problems and limitations
imposed by batteries"

And I am forced to disagree unless he is saying that lead acid is
synonomous with batteries. [or he is talking about physical size  ]

The biggest obstacle is public perception and government and industry
perception.

We probably have 100 electric vehicles at work. golf carts club carts,
and forklifts sporting hawkers. Totally acceptale. But everyone gets a
charge out of me driveing to work every day in my 300VZX.

The rav4, and the EV1 proved viability even with nimh. The reason that
died was the nimh was tied up in exclusive contracts, as we are in
danger of A123 cells becomeing. We are lucky that other countries don't
have this problem and should force the auto makers and our governments
hands.

The fallacy that everything must be done or it is of no use is also a
killer. If just 30% of the cars in daily use were electric, it would
help the economy like you wouldn't believe. Not going to get political
here, it is just a numbers game. We have the excess capacity at night to
charge them, That is enough to end dependence on foriegn oil, The smog
levels in valley cities would drop dramatically and more petroleum would
be available for other transportation needs keeping it's cost and the
cost of plastics down.

I say we need to look at it as using the right tool for the right job.

Ev for personal commuting and errand running
Gasoline for long trips and loads of people or hydrogen fool cell
backed BEV.
Diesel for Product transportation and motor homes
Natural gas for mass transit


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Morgan and All,
Sorry to disagree with you but batteries
are not the problem, decent low drag, weight gliders are.
With a built as EV glider you need a
smaller battery pack and get much more range, acceleration
per $. And this is with reg t105's!! And easy to get 100
mile range!
For instance the GM Volt could be built
right now with lead batts with a 40 mile range before
needing the gas motor.
A good place to start is an aero Kitcar,
Karman Ghia, Bug, ect for a decent EV glider. EV's cost by
weight so keep it, the drag low and you can have a good
transport solution that will beat ICE's in cost, ect.
Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:43:08 -0500

>> With the many different battery threads going on right
>> now, I can't help but reflect on how many posts I have
>> seen in the past where people try to say that batteries
>> are not the problem with EVs. I also see many posts
>where people try to claim that EVs require less maintenance
>> than an ICE. While the maintenance certainly can and
>> fundamentally should be less due to the much simpler
>> nature of an EV drivetrain, it often isn't true and in
>many casess the problems point directly back to the
>batteries.
>
>Definitely. Batteries are a big problem right now.
>
>> Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum
>> crisis becomes one that people truly can not ignore, EVs
>> will not be able to change the status quo. EVs will
>remain a niche that a few people will care passionately
>> about and the rest of the world will ignore.
>>
>> If the economics of batteries and the technology behind
>> them improve enough for cars to be made that are
>> equivilant or better in price, performance, and
>convenience, then we have a fighting chance, but we are not
>even close yet.
>
>The economics won't improve without economics of scale.
>That means starting small and working up, increasing
>volumes over time. Look at Tesla's business plan; I think
>they've got a good idea (except that they're using
>traditional Li-Ion instead of LiFePO4).
>
>EVs made by people like us will never become popular in the
>mainstream. However, a mass-produced car with an integrated
>BMS that does more than our current models could work.
>Imagine having a "Check Battery" light, sort of like the
>"Check Engine" light on current ICEs; then the consumer
>wouldn't have to worry about it, they'd just let the repair
>shop take care of it.
>
>I'd say that EVs are currently a matter of economics. If
>some Lithium-based battery were affordable, corporations
>could design affordable cars that get better
>performance/economy than current ICEs, at affordable
>prices. All we need is for battery prices to drop. They
>need to drop a lot, though, which is why it'll be a while
>before EVs go mainstream.
>
>> Take a look at John and his current Optima problems in
>> his Sparrow. This is not the first set of Optimas that
>> John has had for that thing and John is no newbie to
>> batteries. I've watched him buy Lithiums for it, part of
>the Thundersky debacle, and NiCads which burned up in his
>> fire. He has designed and produced his own battery
>> monitors and shown that he is a person that is willing to
>> do things right by designing and having special parts
>fabricated. Yet, years into this and after lots of effort
>> and education on his part, he still can't get a break
>>when it comes to batteries. 
>> Everyone knows that newbies will murder a pack of
>> batteries, but I am often amazed to see people that have
>> been at this a long time and know what they are doing
>still having issues with batteries. I don't believe it is
>> the people. I put the blame on the batteries, and until
>> there are batteries which meet the above criteria it's
>> hard for me to see EVs going far beyond the dedicated
>hobbiest like those of us that frequent this list.
>
>I think a battery system that's designed by a skilled
>engineering team has the potential to be much more complete
>than one designed by a single engineer on his spare time.
>Also, in commercial car design, battery systems will go
>through a lot of testing, pointing out problems you don't
>notice when throwing something together on your own.
>
>In short, I think the problem is just money, not the innate
>technology. Better battery technology could reduce the need
>for service and electronics and help the economics, but
>it's not necessary, only very helpful.
>
>-Morgan
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> jerryd wrote:
> > Sorry to disagree with you but batteries
> > are not the problem, decent low drag, weight gliders are.
> > With a built as EV glider you need a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> > ... Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum crisis
> > becomes one that people truly can not ignore... EVs will remain a
> > niche that a few people will care passionately about and the rest
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well said Lee,
But it still takes forever to charge a lead acid battery or any other one on 
todays market.
Rich in Virginia
PS In England they have been delivering milk every morning in battery 
powered trucks since I was there in the sixties and I don`t know how long 
before that....


> > damon henry wrote:
> >> ... Until the battery problem gets solved or the petroleum crisis
> >> becomes one that people truly can not ignore... EVs will remain a
> >> niche that a few people will care passionately about and the rest
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Rich <torich1...>
> Well said Lee, But it still takes forever to charge a lead acid
> battery or any other one on today's market.

No; not at all. You can charge plain old lead-acid batteries to 80% state of charge in well under 1 hour. Some of the higher-tech AGMs can do it in 15 minutes or so. If you just need half a charge to get back home, even 5 minutes is possible if done carefully.

The big time-consumer with lead-acid is to get it from 80% to 100% state of charge -- that's the part that takes hours.

Other battery chemistries have different limitations, but the common ones (nicads, nimh, and lithiums) can be charged at least as fast as they can be discharged.

The real problem with fast charging is that you need a big expensive charger to handle that much power, and a huge AC outlet. For example, if you want to put 50kw into your pack in 1 hour, you need equipment that can deliver over 250 amps at 240vac.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> 
> 
> > I also see many posts where people try to claim that EVs require less >maintenance than an ICE. While the maintenance certainly can and >fundamentally should be less due to the much simpler nature of an EV drivetrain, >it often isn't true and in many cases the problems point directly back to the >batteries.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > you need equipment that can deliver over 250 amps at 240vac.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree with 90% of what you say, Lee. I think our minor difference is in
what the engineers *have* learned about today's auto.

The engine shares some of the same components, but is very different in the
way components are combined. Engines aren't 100%, but most would have been
marvels of the 80's, much less the 50's. Some of this is in the computers,
some is in the way they are built, and some in the way they are used.
Today's 7500 mile oil changes and 100K mile tuneups is part in the computer
(fewer sludges, etc) and part in that we drive further distances today. When
average mileage was 8K per year, much of this was in short distances...
while today's 15K mileages burn off much of the condensation and allow the
engine to run 'cleaner' even w/o the computers. Naturally, when working
properly, today's computers, fuel induction, and so forth, makes the engine
run closer to how it should run. (Offsetting this is that today's small cars
are 50% heavier than the cars of the late 60's... and still beat them in
performance.)

I think you are correct in that batts aren't much better in today's cars.
It's still not uncommon to find them sticking spacers under the batts,
because the full sized units are more expensive. Still, it's also not
uncommon to find today's batts performing double the life span of the (much
larger) models of previous days. Part of this, I think, is because (gearing
and computers) allows a car to start easier than in previous days, and part
in that the batteries are managed more efficiently today than they were in
earlier days.

Gone is the days of generators and alternators using their extremely crude
charging schemes. Though today's charging schemes are not great, it still
provides a reasonable charge voltage over the range of needs, so long as
things are even close to "proper".

IMHO, that's what's been missing from most EVs... a proper
charging/discharging scheme. I think that's how Honda could get 100K
warranties from their hybrid batts, for example. (As if you could 100% tell
if the batts were truly faulty, instead of completely dead.) I'm not sure
there is still a totally reliable solution to charging LA batts, not to
count all the dozens of other solutions. (Not to mention equalizing batts,
which is still left to the owner, from what I've seen, to overcharge them
and hope they all come back equally. Oh, and no way to tell, reliably, when
one cell is failing, weak or reversed. If there is, it seems the signs are
missed by 90% of the EV builders/owners.) I'm equally not sure if there is a
controller that cuts off at a "safe" level of discharge.

I'm still wondering (though there are no direct comparisons) if the auto
scheme might not be the better way. The batt is never fully discharged.
Whether by design or accident, few cars will crank a batt dead, as they did
in previous generations. Nor will they heavily charge the batt. Voltage
seems to be optimized, but A into the batt is limited except possibly at
higher RPMs. Obviously this is a different batt type, but for the small load
needs of the auto, it's sufficient. (Discounting, of course, today's need
for steadier voltages and higher draws for some cars.)

I wonder if the EV could learn from this. Sure, we all want to charge our
batts in a minimum of time and get they max range from the rig. But would
our batts do better if not so loaded? The Batt, IMHO, is still the weak
point (combined with charging/discharging, which affects it greatly). The
Batt graphs show you'll get twice the recycles... but only if you discharge
to about half charge. (Same range overall???) I'm wondering is a milder
charge rate would extend batt life. If having the batts cut out before they
could possibly be damaged would help their life.

As you told me, Lee (at least I think it was you) that a person must cook
their first pack before they learn. I'm wondering, at the high cost of
chargers and controllers, why this must be.

...just my thoughts...

BTW, car companies, such as GM, are producing cars better than they did even
20 years ago. Unfortunately, they are crud compared to the competition.
<VBG> They simply sell what the Americans want, 5 years ago. Others produce
what the people might want by the time they can be produced... a 5 year
future prediction. Honda, for example, happened to guess correctly, but if
gas prices hadn't jumped, they'd be the big losers... in the short run.

From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries


> But there isn't any fundamental difference between today's engines and
> the ones of 50 years ago.
>
> What changed in those 50 years?
>
> It wasn't that engineers learned a lot in those 50 years (though they
> did). They knew how to build better, more reliable engines in the 1950's
> -- in fact, they were doing so for customers that demanded it, like
> large truck engines. But the general public didn't care -- improvements
> cost money, and they weren't willing to pay for them. The few companies
> that offered more reliable car engines (Mercedes, Rolls Royce, etc.) had
> a trivial share of the market.
>
> I think what changed was in the customer's expectations. People no
> longer wanted to spend their Saturdays tinkering with their cars. They
> didn't want the constant bother of points, plugs, carburetors, fuel
> pumps, water pumps, starters, belts, hoses, grease fittings, watering
> batteries, etc. They wanted cars that "just ran" dependably, for years
> and years, with minimal maintenance (and that all done by somebody
> else). Environmental concerns from a small but vocal minority led to
> pollution controls and higher safety requirements. Carmaker that "got
> the message" (like the early VW, and later Toyota and Honda) did great.
> Those that didn't (like GM and Ford) were seen as unreliable and old
> fashioned, and lost business. Eventually they have had to change, too,
> or they would have lost the automobile market entirely.
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From what I've been reading, Blue Meanie et al, are very reasonably costed
against other drag machines.

If I understand if correctly (please correct me, Mr Wayland) he early-on
became a batt distributor to keep costs down. Despite his expertise in
building various vehicles, I would doubt any of them have approached the
cost per mile of operating the vehicles with their original ICE
configuration. The exception would probably be in the racing division.
Racing 1/4 mile is not a cost-factor, as opposed to winning... and the burn
outs are extremely dramatic to the crowd. (That and crashes... or the
avoidance there of... are why many race fans come to the track.)

If I'm not incorrect, even his street PU (2500 lbs of batts?) would not have
paid off even $3.50 per gallon gas prices. I may be wrong, but I doubt it,
especially given street prices for batts, not including conversion factors.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries




> > damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I also see many posts where people try to claim that EVs require less
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>

<What changed in those 50 years?> etc.

Well said Lee: I think that CAFE and other environmental laws also forced manufacturers to do a better job of engineering materials and process controls. You have to do a better job when you're liable for extended periods of time and/or mileage. I hate it when politicians rant about "losing jobs in Detroit" due to regulation, when in reality regulation is what forced them to develop better materials, processes and utilize components such as electronic ignition and fuel injection; everything that led to the modern automobile and their continued existence as manufacturers. (personal rant off)

<Imagine this: Manufacture a golf cart battery on an assembly line with 
precision state-of-the-art process control, so quality and consistency 
are very high.>

Are there any standards-writing organizations involved in such development? This might be an important first-step.






____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's 
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. 
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Most of the requests we get demand at least 100 to 150 miles of range.
> At 70mph, with A/C (we're in Central Texas, this is a must for most
> people). The range requirement is typically the first thing mentioned.
> "I need a [whatever car type] that can go 150 miles on the freeway,
> seats four and has good A/C". And, folks genuinely think they're being
> conservative and open-minded, since their gas car can do 300 miles
> between trips to the gas station, and they can fill up in 2 minutes!

This is that beat in philosophy that if once a year I do 150 miles, the car i drive 30 miles a day must be capable at the drop of a hat. Just like the 3 min fill up time. 

I'll say it again. The right tool for the right job. I don't advocate converstion EV's for all or as a primary vehicle. 

If a person commutes 50 miles each way every day, current battery costs are to high. Lead acid is not generally good for this. 
Buy a hybrid or wait 2-3 years for Whitestar or foreign car companies to trounce American car companies, again.

There is this primary public attitude that you see but in reality the public actually has a more reasonable one. This was proven in the 70's.

Detroit in the 70's said we wanted big cars. All the advertising and newsprint gave the impression that that was the public attitude. The japenese were smart enough to provide us with fuel efficient cars seemingly before we new we wanted/needed them(it takes 3-5 years to come out with a new model)

<soapbox> broken Amaerica
(I know about the arguments of government subsidizes, and low labor costs, but our government just subsidizes the wrong groups. Since the same big businesses have more say in congress that the people, damn lobbiest) 
</soapbox>

But if I can do what I do with a conversion, just imagine what a manufacturer can do!

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here here Lee! You really do understand those guys


I need to state one thing.
LiFePo4 should be equal or cheaper than lead at equal volumes.

When I read the original papers out of MIT when this battery was
developed, I remember them talking about the creation of a lithium ion
based chemistry with costs approaching that of lead acid in
production. Environmental, and raw material costs are supposedly lower.
But I don't know if recycling was factored in.

I just wanted to point out that the prices being related to capacity is
not because capacity automatically costs more. Think of the liFePo4 cell
as a "Starved lithium" cell. Cobolt is what made the lithium ion cell so
darned expensive(and flamable) in the past.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee Hart:
>> Imagine this: Manufacture a golf cart battery on an assembly line
>> with precision state-of-the-art process control, so quality and
>> consistency are very high.



> Frank John wrote:
> > Are there any standards-writing organizations involved in such
> > development? This might be an important first-step.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Christopher Robison wrote:
> > Can you point me to some examples of kit-based EVs (in the EV album
> > or elsewhere) that have demonstrated decent performance, are
> > appointed with trim and safety features like a production automobile,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The cobra of Michael Kaydie is close. It is only a
two seater but goes very fast 13 sec in the quarter
with who knows top speed and it is a beautiful car and
has better than a 100 mi range. It is based on a 1965
cobra kit car by factor 5. if he can do it so can you.




> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Christopher Robison wrote:
> > > Can you point me to some examples of kit-based EVs
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Of course you can, until you ask him how much money he has spent. Then you=
might consider just ordering a Tango or a Tesla.

damon

> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:07:55 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The 10000 pound gorrilla... batteries
>
> The cobra of Michael Kaydie is close. It is only a
> two seater but goes very fast 13 sec in the quarter
> with who knows top speed and it is a beautiful car and
> has better than a 100 mi range. It is based on a 1965
> cobra kit car by factor 5. if he can do it so can you.
>
>


> > --- Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> Christopher Robison wrote:
> >>> Can you point me to some examples of kit-based EVs
> ...


----------

