# 1967 VW Split Screen Van - "ICE Breaker"



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Subscribe


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## Ai! (May 9, 2014)

skooler said:


> Subscribe*d*


me too) what a nice van You have!


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice! Keep us update.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

> ......Two energy storage options are being developed, battery (currently 48kWh), and hydrogen......


 ..hydrogen ? .....seriously ?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Karter2 said:


> ..hydrogen ? .....seriously ?


PLEASE, lets not discuss Battery v Hydrogen in this thread... many thanks


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've assembled a 48kWh battery using modules from two 2014 ("Gen 2") Nissan Leaf's. I wanted to reuse the Leaf BMS and 'simply' paralleled up modules to create a pack with twice the capacity of the stock Leaf without requiring any change to the Leaf's system 

The biggest challenge is weight... 400kg (~880lbs)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've reused as many Leaf battery parts as possible, cutting up the orange insulators to accommodate some new busbars that I had laser cut. I was very surprised by the low cost of parts from Nissan and other vendors


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Sources for some of the parts I purchased;

(1) metal hardware "kit" (end plates, threaded rod, brackets) from The Hybrid Auto Centre for $100

http://hybridautocenter.com/


(2) new 24 module busbar assembly from Nissan Parts Deal for $103.63

http://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/part...ation=electric-vehicle-battery,291_A004,295L1


(3) new 24 module busbar covers from Nissan Parts Deal for $1.39 each (3 required)

http://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/part...ion=electric-vehicle-battery,291_A004,295B8+D


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Here are the laser printed busbar drawings (Note that I used 2.0mm copper whereas the Nissan originals are 1.6mm)... I'll add the dxf files when I get a moment.

I'm planning on having some silver plated busbars made if anyone want's them


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've been balancing the pack using Wolf's "Nissan Leaf Battery Sniffer" while I've been disassembling the car. As you can see from these LeafSpy shots I did not bother matching the SOC before assembling the packs but it seems to be working out just fine


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Kevin.

From what I can see each parallel module has been paired with a module from the same donor pack. 

Would you not be better having a module from each donor pack in each parallel module pair?

The two battery packs are likely in different conditions (even if only marginally) and there is the possibility of minor differences in the cell batches.

Just a thought.

Mike


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> The two battery packs are likely in different conditions (even if only marginally) and there is the possibility of minor differences in the cell batches.


The donor cars were both built in 2014 with ~5500 and ~10500 miles on the clock and are probably as close as I'm going to get from wrecks. I hope the pack we install in the van will use modules from the later 30kWh batteries and I will spend time bottom balancing those 

For now I'm primarily interested in how the BMS and other Leaf systems cope with the increase in capacity... early indications are encouraging


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The donor cars were both built in 2014 with ~6500 and ~10500 miles on the clock and are probably as close as I'm going to get from wrecks. I hope the pack we install in the van will use modules from the later 30kWh batteries and I will spend time bottom balancing those
> 
> For now I'm primarily interested in how the BMS and other Leaf systems cope with the increase in capacity... early indications are that its working out just fine


Got it.

The leaf systems will work fine - when we did the Bex project it just worked. Although we put an additional pack in Parallel (with its own bms) rather than additional modules.



Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We've started pulling the Leaf's wiring harness apart... the plan is to keep the tabletop Leaf working while we identify the interconnections between the various components


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Let me know if you have any questions on thia bit kevin. We did exactly the same a couple of months ago.

Amazing how much can be removed!

The method we used was to red tape all connectors that were needed and then simply remove the rest. You'll find a lot of the needed connectors have significantly fewer wires afterwards!

Also, be waey of the splice blocks. Can can be very confusing/misleading.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We've started looking at options for reusing the Leaf's displays;

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/leaf-instrument-displays-177729.html


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

not much progress to report... we've built a bottom balancing tool based on the work of tom and evtv (see the following video for more details);


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Why the bottom balancing ?
I thought you were using the "sniffer" to ballance the packs ?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Karter2 said:


> Why the bottom balancing ?
> I thought you were using the "sniffer" to ballance the packs ?


I plan to bottom balance the final pack because I'm using cells from two cars... I'm just testing the balancer I built, normally I connect Wolf's battery sniffer whenever the car is not 'running' on the bench


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Unused parts from the tabletop donor car (white) are on route to the recycling centre 

The car I'm stripping for van parts is a 2014 Tekna (black) with the improved heating system


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

If its not already gone i know if someone in desperate need of a windscreen and willing to pay for it!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> If its not already gone i know if someone in desperate need of a windscreen and willing to pay for it!


Unfortunately, it was cracked


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I finally managed to spend a few hours in the workshop today... I continued to dissect one of the three wiring looms 

The IRS should be delivered in the next couple of weeks and we'll then start work on the rear motor mount.


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## ORpilot42 (Oct 31, 2016)

Is your goal to us use the Leaf motor as a complete unit driving the wheels or will you be going the a VW transaxle?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

ORpilot42 said:


> Is your goal to us use the Leaf motor as a complete unit driving the wheels or will you be going the a VW transaxle?


I intend to use the complete unit driving the wheels without the VW transaxle.

I had hoped to keep the inverter and charger on top of the motor but that would require extensive cutting of the bus which I'm trying to avoid. Current plan is to mount the motor only on the new IRS and run it in reverse by swapping the phase connections between the motor and inverter (as originally suggested by Mike Schooling). I hope to test the phase swap next week and with luck the new IRS will be here before the end of the month


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I hope to test the phase swap next week and with luck the new IRS will be here before the end of the month


You may have to make some changes to the resolver so that you don't have a mismatch between the commands and the feedback.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Hi Kevin.
In the above post (Nov 13) with the photos of the stripped shell and the Tekna on the trailer.......
..is that tow car a PHEV Outlander ?
If so what are your comments on it regarding general practicality , reliability, suitability for Family use etc.?
Just compiling a short list...
Thanks.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Hollie Maea said:


> You may have to make some changes to the resolver so that you don't have a mismatch between the commands and the feedback.


Mike Schooling has already done the work... he swapped two of the phases between the motor and the inverter and it works perfectly in the car I've been in. I believe no change to the encoder was required.

Mike was using a 2015 Tekna donor. I will try and repeat this test with motors/inverters from a 2014 Acenta and a 2014 Tekna. I have no idea whether this works on a 2011 car... does anyone know?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Christmas came early in the workshop... Red 9 Design suspension upgrades delivered


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Very nice!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Very, very nice!
Is it paint, plated or stainless steel?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

not much progress to report... I have removed most of the Leaf wiring loom and everything was working until yesterday when a fault developed which is preventing the system from reading the key and starting 

Unfortunately, the service manuals that I have are for US cars and many details are different 

Here's the chaos on the bench today


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Christmas came early in the workshop... Red 9 Design suspension upgrades delivered


Im liking that new front end for the Spit. That is a first seeing one of these styles for the Bus. I might just be interested in getting one if the shipping and duty costs are reasonable.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

so I found the problem that was preventing the system from starting today... it turns out that the steering column uses the same type connector for both the EPS Control Unit and the Steering Lock Unit


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The US Leaf service manual does not have any information on the Steering Lock Unit (I suspect the hardware is only installed in UK cars) and therefore it took some time to understand the DTC's that LeafSpy was reporting. I finally figured it out using the following SEC file from an Infiniti;

https://www.z-car.com/infiniti/m37x/SEC.pdf

But not before I'd opened up the EPS Control Unit which I thought had developed a fault


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Bottom line.... be careful with your labels


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> Im liking that new front end for the Spit. That is a first seeing one of these styles for the Bus. I might just be interested in getting one if the shipping and duty costs are reasonable.


It's a great piece of kit  However if you want a super low bus then you probably need a solution that can narrow easily to allow the front wheels enough clearance from the wheel tubs.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It's a great piece of kit  However if you want a super low bus then you probably need a solution that can narrow easily to allow the front wheels enough clearance from the wheel tubs.


Too low is just not practical. But it looks like you can get pretty low with that. Im going to consider one. I love good handling and the Bus is a perfect candidate for low and fun. Im going to use 165 tires in the rear and 145 up front. Narrow tires. Not wide tires. I don't like too narrow on the beam. Messes with the handling characteristics of the Bus. I had one low bus and it was a blast to drive. My current bus is still at stock height.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Cool that they even have a unit to replace the rear suspension too. Pricy but damn tempting to do both the front and rear. The rear allows you to use the newer IRS tranny. A better setup and no more tucked up wheels in the rear with this setup. I like that they designed it to mount on stock mounting points and no welding or drilling. Sweet.


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## ORpilot42 (Oct 31, 2016)

Kevin- How close to stock ride height do you expect from the front/rear ends, or is a lowered look your goal?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

ORpilot42 said:


> Kevin- How close to stock ride height do you expect from the front/rear ends, or is a lowered look your goal?


I'm lowering the bus by about 2" while also fitting larger 16" wheels. I like the slammed look but don't want to cut the bus unnecessarily nor make it impractical for road trips 

I'm still some way off from a trial fitting because I must resubmit the bus with ICE for registration in the UK


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Apologies for the 'radio silence' during the last few months, I've been busy on one of my other projects, repairing our watermill


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I was thinking about restarting the bus conversion this winter when something rather unexpected happened


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

busy day today... tomorrow I take a look at the two motors


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

What happened to the mill Kevin?


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## El Vikingo Tropical (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm definitely hooked on this one!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> What happened to the mill Kevin?


We've completed all the major repairs and will sell the mill next year... following Brexit we've moved our rnd and production to our US location and have started looking for offices in Dublin. We don't plan to spend much time in the UK in future.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tesla 85D Front Motor with and without acoustic covers


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tesla 85D Rear Motor without acoustic covers...


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

miscellaneous parts that came with the battery and motors


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I had a quick play with the 'small' Tesla rear motor and my IRS today. It looks as if the motor will fit with only minor reworking of the IRS and leave a huge cavern where the ICE used to be


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I had a quick play with the 'small' Tesla rear motor and my IRS today. It looks as if the motor will fit with only minor reworking of the IRS and leave a huge cavern where the ICE used to be


Thanks for posting all the pictures! I am envisioning Tesla battery modules nested into the floor of the VW, and the engine space converted to storage.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

nucleus said:


> Thanks for posting all the pictures! I am envisioning Tesla battery modules nested into the floor of the VW, and the engine space converted to storage.


Sounds great, but there really isn't much usable volume within the floor structure, so a more likely Tesla-style installation would be to cover the load floor in battery, with a new floor built up on top and seriously compromised interior headroom. Then in the back, the Tesla motor is taking the original engine space, leaving only the transaxle and muffler spaces free... which will be needed for electronics. The original gas tank volume seems like the only potentially gained volume, assuming it isn't needed for more battery (since the floor space is smaller than a Model S battery).

The Tesla motor and transaxle with the aftermarket suspension look really good, but I expect that reality will be a packaging challenge, rather than a storage bonus.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Sounds great, but there really isn't much usable volume within the floor structure, so a more likely Tesla-style installation would be to cover the load floor in battery, with a new floor built up on top and seriously compromised interior headroom.


Our current plan is to modify (replace?) the chassis to create a large area under the floor for batteries. The battery box will be designed to be removed easily for future upgrades. Given the Tesla drivetrain (motor/inverter/transmission) has a similar volume to the ICE transmission we do gain most of the area occupied by the old engine and fuel tank.

We will install two Tesla chargers for 22kW 3 Phase AC charging but they are quite small, and we will need radiators for cooling the motor, chargers, and battery (currently were trying to put the rads up inside the 'cheeks' where the side air vents are located).

Our biggest problem is battery weight... we will use aluminium where possible and install a minimalist interior (which I much prefer not being a fan of curtains ).

I'll start recording some vids now that the project is making progress


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We're currently exploring the idea of building a new chassis for the bus. Not only does this allow us to build a much stronger structure using modern materials but it also allows the battery to be placed under the floor and between the wheels.

The chassis centre section (see photo) is approximately 1500mm x 1500mm x 200mm. Each Tesla module is approximately 700mm x 300mm x 80mm. Therfore two layers of eight modules will fit in theory


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Kevin
I thought about using a folded composite chassis for my car before I chickened out 

That flat chassis just calls out for a folded honeycomb structure

http://www.paleoneon.com/electriccar.html


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Our current plan is to modify (replace?) the chassis to create a large area under the floor for batteries...





Kevin Sharpe said:


> We're currently exploring the idea of building a new chassis for the bus. Not only does this allow us to build a much stronger structure using modern materials but it also allows the battery to be placed under the floor and between the wheels.
> 
> The chassis centre section (see photo) is approximately 1500mm x 1500mm x 200mm. Each Tesla module is approximately 700mm x 300mm x 80mm. Therfore two layers of eight modules will fit in theory


Great info and illustrations! 

The photo of the original floor structure shows the problem: there's volume, but it is broken up into small spaces by structural elements. Thus, the plan for new structure.

If I understand this correctly, it sounds like you're planning to have half the area and twice the depth, to get all 16 modules in. Since Tesla barely fits two modules end-to-end across the width, my guess is that this orientation won't work for the van by the time structure and box are considered, so the layout will be different. It looks like Tesla has an issue with space, too... there appear to be two modules stacked at the front, because they don't all fit under the passenger compartment floor in one layer.

It is popular to show the powertrain, subframes, suspensions, and battery box of the Model S and call it the "skateboard", but this is misleading because it suggests that the battery box is the floor structure (the "board"). It is not - the body structure is all above that (and along the sides as rocker panel boxes), and almost never shown with the "skateboard". The Tesla design is basically a normal unibody car (in aluminum), sitting a few centimetres higher than normal, with a shallow battery box hung under it, and apparently tucked in between the rocker panels. The box fits because it is not competing for space with an exhaust system or fuel tank. The current plan for the van appears to be a shorter, narrower, and taller version of the same approach.


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> We're currently exploring the idea of building a new chassis for the bus. Not only does this allow us to build a much stronger structure using modern materials but it also allows the battery to be placed under the floor and between the wheels.
> 
> The chassis centre section (see photo) is approximately 1500mm x 1500mm x 200mm. Each Tesla module is approximately 700mm x 300mm x 80mm. Therfore two layers of eight modules will fit in theory












That is perfect. I was going to say that I think you have the space based on this pic. 

If need to you could go a bit lower than the bottom of the stock frame and then gain that clearance back with taller tires.

You will want to end up with a flush bottom for reduced drag. Having that bottom be structural will greatly enhance chassis rigidity and allow you to have removable floor panels to access your packs for maintenance.

Great to see a project with the battery where it should be.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

It's clear the volume exists to build a two layer battery box under the floor and between the wheels... I can even use the same basic layout as Tesla with HV busbars along the centre and cooling along the outside edge.

For the record the Tesla Model S battery box is 1460mm wide (ignoring the side mounting brackets) and four modules requires ~1260mm 

All I need now is a chassis fabricator who can deliver in a decent time period


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Duncan said:


> I thought about using a folded composite chassis for my car before I chickened out
> 
> That flat chassis just calls out for a folded honeycomb structure


That's very cool, thanks for sharing.

Some time ago I paid a visit to Tornado Sports Cars who build a carbon fibre GT40 chassis with a aluminium honeycomb interior. As you say the material is amazing 

http://www.tornadosportscars.com/GT40/Monocoquechassis.html


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Happy to report that my bus has finally been registered in the UK and I can now strip it down ready for conversion 

In the last few weeks I've been visiting fabricators to review options on the chassis redesign to accommodate the Tesla battery. I've also found a motorsports company who will add motor mounts to the Red 9 IRS for the 'small' Tesla rear motor. While it's very tight in the old engine bay we believe we can fit the Tesla motor and IRS without modifying the bus... a bolt on upgrade 

Here's a photo of a split engine bay with a Red 9 IRS installed... note this is not my bus today unfortunately


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've been looking for axles for the 'small' Tesla rear motors but could only find axles from the 'large' Tesla rear motors at breakers (part number 1007719). So I took a gamble and the good news is they fit  I guess it's possible that Tesla only make the one size axle for rear motors.

Note that the Tesla front motor does have a different axle with a cup that's ~5mm smaller in diameter (part number 1030615). I don't know whether these are usable in the rear motors 

1030615 photo thanks to Damien


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

It makes sense to me that the front and rear would have different axle shafts, because the outer CV joint must go through much greater angles at the front with steering. That doesn't matter to the inner CV joint, but once they're using a different shaft anyway...

Also, Tesla started with the large rear motor, and when they added the front motor they would not have expected to ever go as high as that original rear torque level on the front, so a smaller joint would make sense.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We hope to 3D scan the 'small' Tesla rear motor in the next couple of weeks... we *think* we have a solution that will allow any of the early VW vehicles to use the Tesla drivetrain easily 

While we wait here are a few photo's that give an indication of the overall size of the drivetrain that we are using.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

More 'toys' for the Open Source project


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Nice! What are you hoping to do with the chademo adaptor?

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> Nice! What are you hoping to do with the chademo adaptor?


We're fitting a single Type 2 CCS connector to our conversions and hope to support single/three phase AC, CCS, CHAdeMO, and supercharging (subject to approval).

We had originally planned to use Tesla OEM Type 2 car connectors as fitted to EU/AUS cars but they are proving difficult to source from salvage in quantity. Our workaround is to fit new DC pins to a Type 2 CCS connector that we can procure more readily. The CHAdeMO adapter is intended to help with mechanical and electrical design


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The van is currently at the workshop where the prototype motor mounts are being fabricated. I hope to have some progress to report in a couple of weeks time.

In the meantime we've just received another 'small' Tesla drive unit which is destined for a 1976 Beetle Karmann Cabriolet conversion that a friend is undertaking


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We're making progress on the 3D scans and have today found a company that can 3D print full size copies of the drive units, battery modules, and chargers. The plan is to create low cost space models of the Tesla parts that anyone can use during the conversion planning stage.

At the other end of the scale, we've been fabricating physical models to help visualise the mechanical constraints (sometimes easier when you don't have 3D models of the vehicle)


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Will you be freely sharing the CAD/3d scan of the drive units?

I would deff be interested in that, because my "conversion" most likely will be a ground up one.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tomdb said:


> Will you be freely sharing the CAD/3d scan of the drive units?


of course... I plan to open source everything that we do and hope to encourage more people to do the same so that as a community we stop reinventing the wheel


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

It looks like we'll have a lot of space left after our ~250HP motor upgrade


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It looks like we'll have a lot of space left after our ~250HP motor upgrade


Nice to see there is lots of room. 

Pete


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We have the prototype engine mounts fabricated and the 'small' Tesla rear motor installed ready for inverter testing 

The only cut on the bus was the centre of the lowest cross member which we think we can save in a future version of the motor mount design. Everything bolts onto the bus including the Red 9 IRS system that I'm using.

Next step is to verify this design approach works on a beetle chassis. Then we'll give the prototype to a couple of engineering companies who will turn it into products that we can all buy


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We're planning on installing Type 2 CCS connectors on our Tesla based conversions in Europe.

This connector will support up to 73A (~17kW) single phase, 63A (~43kW) three phase, 150A (~150kW) CCS, 125A (~54kW) CHAdeMO (with the Tesla adapter), and some crazy power if we modify the earth pin and plug in a SuperCharger (I suspect we'll also need life insurance that includes the unexpected arrival of a Falcon 9 overhead ).

The basic connector is ~100 USD delivered in Europe and ~250 USD with 3m cables and manual/electric lock installed. If people are interested I'm happy to stock these in Europe and sell them at cost to anyone who's supporting the open source efforts (send me a PM)


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Quick note, it wont do single phase 73A, it says 63A or 14kw

Also CSS dc fast charge is 150A, or at 400V 60Kw 

Still plenty of juice. Any idea of how/where you will get a CSS PLC communication for the DC fast charge? 

And yes I will defiantly be interested once I kick off my build. (currently only got a chademo port)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tomdb said:


> Quick note, it wont do single phase 73A, it says 63A or 14kw


We've already put 100A through the pins in an oven at 50C... begin by asking yourself what Tesla are doing to get >300A through those pins 



Tomdb said:


> Also CSS dc fast charge is 150A, or at 400V 60Kw


Not if you control the CCS charger 



Tomdb said:


> Any idea of how/where you will get a CSS PLC communication for the DC fast charge?


Yes, we're brainstorming lots of ideas... at the moment we're expecting to add the capability to the charger controller that Damien is working on.



Tomdb said:


> And yes I will defiantly be interested once I kick off my build. (currently only got a chademo port)


Great!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Mrkva said:


> You work is very nice too watch. Thank you for sharing this pics with us


Many thanks


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We’ve been busy working on the suspension system and hope to have the wheels back on the bus next week ready to test Damien’s open source inverter controller 😎

In parallel with these efforts we’re showing the prototype motor mounts to a couple of companies that want to make them commercially for all the early VW vehicles 👍 And in the quiet moments we’re kitting parts for four Tesla based conversions 💪


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Here's the version 2 Tesla motor mount prototype which fits on the standard VW Bus/Beetle engine frame horns without modification. This version also accommodates the Red 9 IRS when fitted to the Split Screen Bus


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That is a brilliant setup you have there Kevin. Very impressive. My only observation is that you have alot of bolted joints that could all be 1 unit. I'd strongly recommend considering the next version having as few joints and bolts a practicable.

I eagerly await your next update.

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> My only observation is that you have alot of bolted joints that could all be 1 unit. I'd strongly recommend considering the next version having as few joints and bolts a practicable.


This is very much a proof of concept prototype... the final versions will be very different I'm sure 



tylerwatts said:


> I eagerly await your next update


I spent the day with a motorsports company who plan to sell a bolt on Tesla drivetrain and suspension system for the split/bay bus, beetle, thing, and porsche... they make amazing products and I'm really looking forward to having these items available off the shelf


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

My visit on Friday also confirmed that we can expect a Limited Slip Differential for the 'small' Tesla drivetrain at the end of the year


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> My visit on Friday also confirmed that we can expect a Limited Slip Differential for the 'small' Tesla drivetrain at the end of the year


Very promising Kevin. Is the company in question confidential or anonymous or are you able to share their name please?

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Is the company in question confidential or anonymous or are you able to share their name please?


I won't share company details until I have something tangible I can show... I've suggested they begin by making a video of the diff removal 

I'm also aware of a company that hope to produce a Tesla LSD in China. I hope we will have multiple sources now that we have open source controllers available


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've been looking at the cooling requirements for the Tesla components. I'm proposing to run two independent radiators, one for the motor/inverter/charger, and one for the batteries.

I've been discussing radiator locations on a number of VW forums with active members who have installed water cooled engines. What's becoming clear from these discussions is that little science has been used to evaluate the cooling, not surprising really given the age of the bus. 

One of the most interesting discussions led to a three part article on autospeed about measuring pressure differences across radiators and intercoolers;

Undertrays, Spoiler & Bonnet Vents, Part 1 

Undertrays, Spoiler & Bonnet Vents, Part 2 

Undertrays, Spoiler & Bonnet Vents, Part 3

What I'm proposing to do is undertake some pressure measurements on my electric bus with and without the engine bay sealed. Given my motor is not air breathing the results should tell me where the high and low pressure zones are located on the body and chassis. As a temporary measure I will install my radiators inside the bus during testing 

Hopefully once I understand more about airflow around and under the bus I can make an informed decision about the final radiator location


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Do you know exactly how much heat you are radiating? Worst case AFAIK is 37 kw calculated, wide open on the highway uphill.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Do you know exactly how much heat you are radiating?


No... we're going to use the bus as a test bed for much of the Tesla open source hardware/software and answer questions like cooling requirements


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Anne (New Electric) and I have just blagged another pile of Tesla parts... here's part of my stash


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Sounds like we better grab Tesla parts while we can. I see the CEO of the company has taken up camping, boozing, and dancing around a Bonfire on top of his Gigafactory:https://www.inverse.com/article/37815-elon-musk-camping-room-gigafactory


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> Sounds like we better grab Tesla parts while we can. I see the CEO of the company has taken up camping, boozing, and dancing around a Bonfire on top of his Gigafactory


If they do go under at least we'll have lots of great parts to play with... it would be the AZD auction on steroids


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> If they do go under at least we'll have lots of great parts to play with... it would be the AZD auction on steroids


Spoken like a fellow scaven... recycler. It's good to see Musk blow off a little steam. Or, maybe in EV parlance, it should be called balancing his batteries. 

I think at this point Tesla is such a gem that Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, or other deep pockets would be more than willing to provide bridge monies or do an outright purchase to keep the company going.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The first Tesla motor mount prototype is now in use as a space model in this historic beetle conversion


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Top work kevin!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very nice workmanship there and looks like it was meant to be fitted. Excellent progress.

Cheers

Tyler


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

A few years ago I designed and did small production runs of motor mounts to fit TDIs in older buses. They never looked as elegant this mount!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

open source inverter controller in the 'small' rear drive unit today


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> Top work kevin!


Many thanks


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Very nice workmanship there and looks like it was meant to be fitted. Excellent progress.


Thanks!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> A few years ago I designed and did small production runs of motor mounts to fit TDIs in older buses. They never looked as elegant this mount!


Hopefully the production version will look even better


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Cool. Please summarise how the controller works with the Tesla inverter and does it retain Comms with the Tesla BMS and any other systems?
Thanks

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Please summarise how the controller works with the Tesla inverter and does it retain Comms with the Tesla BMS and any other systems?


Full details of the Tesla motor controller hardware can be found on Damien's thread (here). At it's simplest the inverter requires just five control and two power connections to operate. If a more sophisticated interface is required then Johannes is implementing the CANopen protocol and details can be found on his thread (here)

Our plan is to provide an open source solution for all the Tesla drive system hardware. In the near future you can expect to see progress with the BMS which will include integration with the motor and charger. If you take a look at the Tesla charger thread (here) you'll see that numerous people are contributing to the development... I expect this organic development process will grow significantly over the next few months


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Here is a list of the Tesla parts we're using in our builds;

(1) Gen 2 10kW Charger

Tesla Part Description - ASY, CHRGR, GEN2

Tesla Part Number - 1014963-00-C


(2) Battery Heater

Tesla Part Description - Battery Heater

Tesla Part Number - 1038901-00-G


(3) DCDC

Tesla Part Description - DAP-2500AB A

Tesla Part Number - 1028665-00-B


(4) PTC Heater Core

Tesla Part Description - MODEL-S LHD PTC HEATER

Tesla Part Number - 6007385-00-K


(5) Front Junction Box

Tesla Part Description - FRONT JUNCTION BOX_HV DSTRBTN

Tesla Part Number - 1028843-00-B


(6) Rear Junction Box (US, Single Phase)

Tesla Part Description - ASY, HVJB

Tesla Part Number - 1048910-00-C


(7) Rear Driveshafts 

Tesla Part Description - TBD

Tesla Part Number - 1007719-01-A


(8) HV cable FJB TO HVJB

Tesla Part Description - TBD

Tesla Part Number - 1030582-10-G


(9) HV cable FJB TO DCDC (“Blue Cable”) 

Tesla Part Description - TBD

Tesla Part Number - TBD


(10) LV Wiring Harness(s)

Tesla Part Description - TBD

Tesla Part Number - TBD


(11) Rear Drive Unit ('small')

Tesla Part Description - ASY, DRIVE, UNIT, 3.0-150, Rear

Tesla Part Number - 1037000-00-F


(12) Small Drive Unit Fused Power Cable ('long' version)

Tesla Part Description - ASSY, HV HARN, FR SOU, FUSED, MS, DM

Tesla Part Number - 1050805-10-D


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

For the last few weeks the bus has been on loan to a company who are working on a bolt on IRS with integrated Tesla motor mount. The company hope to release a production prototype early next year which will be available for anyone to buy 

Now that their work is complete the bus will be returning to our workshop for the next stage of fabrication. We have a lot of work fitting the Red 9 front suspension, upgrading brakes, installing Tesla components, battery boxes, etc., etc.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Can't wait Kevin. Going really well.

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

On our way back to the workshop...


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We removed the inverter controller from the Tesla 'small' rear motor today. This is now on route to Damien for upgrade to the open source controller


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Busy couple of days installing the Red 9 front suspension upgrade


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Clearing space for the underfloor battery box


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

trial fit CCS AC/DC connector


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

3D mockup of proposed Tesla module layout for the two battery boxes. One box (8 modules) will be mounted under the floor between the chassis rails, and another (6 modules) above the motor where the petrol tank was located 

One of the things I love about the open source motor controller is the ability to use lower battery voltages. For example, I could easily reduce the number of Modules to 11 for a 250V (nominal) system, removing ~170 lbs from the back of the bus


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

CCS connector installed... will support single/three phase AC, CCS, and CHAdeMO (using the Tesla adaptor)


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks for the udates! Looks very good. I think implementing CCS Combo on a DIY project is very cool!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Lots of experiments with the battery boxes and I have decided to reduce the number of Tesla battery modules in the rear to four and save some weight.

In total the twelve Tesla modules will give me 63kWh (P85 modules) or 75kWh (P100 modules) which should be plenty when combined with rapid charging


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Kevin
How are the modules being held in your frame please? And is that much steel not going to add alot of weight? Wouldn't angle iron with bonded/sealed aluminium panelling be lighter and more protective? I might be jumping the gun of course.

Do you have an estimate of how heavy the bus will be when completed?

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> How are the modules being held in your frame please?


We are welding locating pins and rivnuts and will then vibrate the whole structure to see how well it survives.



tylerwatts said:


> And is that much steel not going to add alot of weight? Wouldn't angle iron with bonded/sealed aluminium panelling be lighter and more protective?


I'm not worried about weight at this time... I very much expect to revisit this whole design once we have some miles on the bus. At this time our focus is to get the thing running and help validate the open source components 



tylerwatts said:


> Do you have an estimate of how heavy the bus will be when completed?


The suspension upgrades are pretty much complete and we expect to weigh the stripped down bus next week. Once that's done I'll have a very good idea of the final weight and what, if anything, we can do to save weight.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Back of the bus with IRS upgrade... almost ready to install the Tesla drive unit and rear battery box


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## chrishazell (Oct 29, 2017)

*1967 VW Split Screen Van - &quot;ICE Breaker&quot;*

Can’t wait to see what it weighs in at [emoji3]


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We put the motor (minus inverter) back in the bus today and checked clearances ready for the driveshaft fabrication


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Very nice!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Porsche wheels


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## bit_choppy (Jan 6, 2018)

Hej Kevin, watching your project with great interest from Sweden keep up the great work


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

bit_choppy said:


> Hej Kevin, watching your project with great interest from Sweden keep up the great work


Many thanks... I will record some video soon, should make it a lot more interesting


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I spent some time reviewing the weight of the Bus conversion today;

The original bus weighed 1036kg (2285lbs).

Removing the ICE, Gearbox, Fuel Tank, and replacing the front/rear suspension with Red 9 resulted in the bus weighing 852kg (1878lbs).

Installing the Tesla Drive Unit, 4 Tesla Battery Modules and rear battery rack resulted in the bus weighing 1046kg (2306lbs).

Now for another 8 Tesla Battery Modules (200kg / 440lbs), 2 Battery Boxes (TBD), and a bunch of electronics (TBD).

While heavy, it looks as if my 1500kg (3300lbs) kerb weight target is achievable (same as a Nissan Leaf), while leaving 570kg (1250lbs) for payload


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That sounds pretty good Kevin. Well done.

Cheers

Tyler


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Carefully removing a redundant tab on the Tesla drive unit allows a bolt on IRS and ~350HP motor upgrade without cutting the bus 

I'll try and record a video next week


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Carefully removing a redundant tab on the Tesla drive unit...


It's redundant in the Bus, but do you know what it is for in the Tesla? Is it a drive unit mount to the subframe, or a bracket for a cable or something else, or a lifting lug? Just curious...


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> It's redundant in the Bus, but do you know what it is for in the Tesla? Is it a drive unit mount to the subframe, or a bracket for a cable or something else, or a lifting lug? Just curious...


The drivetrain has several, they're not used in the car, so I guess some sort of production feature


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The drivetrain has several, they're not used in the car, so I guess some sort of production feature


Thanks 
So a lifting lug or attachment point for an assembly fixture.
Since they're not used in the car, they seem safe to remove for any installation... and are probably not suitable alternative mounting points.


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## chrishazell (Oct 29, 2017)

This is how those tabs seam to be used on the production line. This is a front drive unit but should be the same on the rear. There definitely not used as any type of mount in the vehicle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

chrishazell said:


> ...
> This is how those tabs seam to be used on the production line. This is a front drive unit but should be the same on the rear. There definitely not used as any type of mount in the vehicle


Excellent 
Thanks, Chris!

Note to people tearing down Tesla drive units: you don't need to crawl around on the floor... bolt it to an engine stand instead. Unless, of course, some DIY car builder has already cut off the brackets to make it fit in their car...


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> Note to people tearing down Tesla drive units: you don't need to crawl around on the floor... bolt it to an engine stand instead.


If I was doing this on a regular basis I'd use a pallet stacker and fabricate a simple engine stand... it would save a lot of effort


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> If I was doing this on a regular basis I'd use a pallet stacker and fabricate a simple engine stand... it would save a lot of effort


Building something custom would be easy - and a simple one would work on a workbench top - but for those familiar with engines and equipped to work on them (or willing to borrow or buy basic equipment), an engine crane can easily move a drive unit, and it could bolt up to a common engine stand without modification (although with most stands, you wouldn't be able to rotate the unit once it is mounted).


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> an engine crane can easily move a drive unit


Unfortunately that may not be possible in the bus with restricted space above the drive unit and bottom access prevented by the IRS. Really depends on design of the engine crane and it's ability to project the drive unit forward into the bus.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Unfortunately that may not be possible in the bus with restricted space above the drive unit and bottom access prevented by the IRS. Really depends on design of the engine crane and it's ability to project the drive unit forward into the bus.


Understood, and it's a common problem for anything other than the "conventional" drivetrain location under the hood in front. I meant that an engine crane works for moving the unit around the shop, including lifting it up to a stand.

A jack from below - typically something usually known as a transmission jack - is the solution for most installations under the vehicle body. It is common for suspension, subframes, and crossmembers to prevent direct engine and transmission or transaxle (_motor _and transaxle in this case) access, but that's why the powertrain is normally installed on the subframe and lifted into the vehicle as an assembly... both in the factory (even for conventional front-engine vehicles with a hood over the engine) and in repair shops using the bottom access method.

In the case of the Bus, it would be nice to be able to lift the entire Tesla drive unit, subframe, and Red 9 suspension together... but I don't know if that is viable due to issues such as manoeuvering clearance and access to bolts (perhaps at the front drive unit mount).


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> In the case of the Bus, it would be nice to be able to lift the entire Tesla drive unit, subframe, and Red 9 suspension together... but I don't know if that is viable due to issues such as manoeuvering clearance and access to bolts (perhaps at the front drive unit mount).


Unfortunately, the frame horns get in the way, you need to mount the IRS from below and drive unit from above. The good news is that you could probably fit both these components in under an hour and it would all bolt on 

I'll try to produce a video this week showing more details...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Kevin, how about a free shopping spree in this Tesla department?:https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/11/12/magazine/12tesla3/12mag-12tesla-t_CA2-superJumbo.jpg 

I like the low tech bungee cords and D-ring tie downs

Or this one:https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/tesla-fremont-factory-5.png


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> Kevin, how about a free shopping spree in this Tesla department?:https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/11/12/magazine/12tesla3/12mag-12tesla-t_CA2-superJumbo.jpg
> 
> I like the low tech bungee cords and D-ring tie downs
> 
> Or this one:https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/tesla-fremont-factory-5.png


Fabulous photos


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We've been playing with radiator ideas... here's a 380mm x 280mm x 60mm mockup in the 'cooling cabinet' that we're creating on each side of the bus... we'll use these to get the bus moving and then revisit once we know more about airflow and cooling requirements


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> We've been playing with radiator ideas... here's a 380mm x 280mm x 60mm mockup in the 'cooling cabinet' that we're creating on each side of the bus... we'll use these to get the bus moving and then revisit once we know more about airflow and cooling requirements


Nice. Worth mentikning that on the leaf stuff we're doing we tend to run seperate radiators for the motor and inverter. Allows for more power!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> Nice. Worth mentikning that on the leaf stuff we're doing we tend to run seperate radiators for the motor and inverter. Allows for more power!


One of the things I like about the 'small' Tesla drive units is the seperate inverter and motor cooling... we may even end up with a third radiator for the battery


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The Tesla drive unit mounting system has been extended to include the rear torsion tube


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Chris Hazell has created a 3D Model of the CCS Connector dust cap (DC pins) and posted it on GrabCAD (here)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

My open source inverter controller turned up today... not long until we start spinning the wheels


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm using VAG pattern driveshafts in the prototype... my only concern is that the 250HP versions fitted to the Audi TT / Golf R32 may not survive


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

While we continue our deliberations on the battery box design, my thoughts have turned to the instrumentation 

I intend to have a tablet mounted on the overhead ventilation duct which will display detailed system data. However, I also want a 'speedometer' that can be used as the only instrument for everyday driving.

Traditionally the split bus has a single 4.5" (115mm) gauge which could potentially be increased to 5.5" (140mm) without any major changes to the metalwork.

I have been unable to find any off the shelf solutions to-date and I'm therefore investigating the possibility of reverse engineering gauges from the New Beetle, VW Mini, Porsche, and others. Obviously these could be engineered to 'look' traditional while providing instrumentation more suitable for use in an electric vehicle.

That said, I'm also fascinated by the opportunities offered by modern OEM displays such as those fitted to the Fiat 500 which includes both a partial and full LCD variant in a 7" display format


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

KIA also have some interesting display technology that could provide the starting point for a project... they have clusters with 'large' and 'small' LCD's which have been widely hacked (one example here) and have great documentation including schematics (here)


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Except for the annoying kia logo on start up those are really nice. I suppose the hackers can defeat that.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Except for the annoying kia logo on start up those are really nice. I suppose the hackers can defeat that.


It would be possible to replace the firmware and remove the logo. However, I'm more interested in using the large LCD as the basis for an open source display project


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The core of the older FIAT 500 instrument cluster looks interesting and could easily provide the basis for a 5"-7" round analog/digital display. Mine cost just £20


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The KIA LCD instrument gauge is clever... it uses a 6" x 4" LCD to emulate a 'round' display 

It also has some serious graphics processing under the hood


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Looking closely at the new FIAT 500 instrument cluster I'm convinced they are using a rectangular LCD just like the KIA.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

The core of the older KIA instrument cluster looks interesting and could easily provide the basis for a 5.5" (~140mm) round analog/digital display which is the same size as the gauge used in the MK2 Mini


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

I'm converting an old car also (69 Jag) and am currently looking at gauges to integrate with the Tesla drive unit. Its a priority that the dash looks original with the smallest hint of technology. 

I see EVTV are selling Speedhut CAN gauges that integrate with their alset system. I dont like the design (probably not hard to change) but im very amateur and dont understand how to integrate these gauges and my system. I've resolved to make my own reusing the existing gauges and six x27 stepper motors driven by an arduino to translate the CAN messages from my controller into a signal to drive the motor. Thats the theory anyway. 

The gauges you've pictured are pretty sweet. I really love that Fiat 500 gauge. Is it hard to sniff out the CAN messages that drive it just having the gauge without being able to overhear the traffic?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

itchyback said:


> Is it hard to sniff out the CAN messages that drive it just having the gauge without being able to overhear the traffic?


I don't think it would be 'hard' but undoubtably time-consuming 

I'm still researching options but leaning towards an open source design that can drive stepper motors, LEDs, and LCDs using CAN or hardwire inputs. It's possible this already exists in the open source community (here for example)


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Earlier you wrote:


Kevin Sharpe said:


> Here is a list of the Tesla parts we're using in our builds;
> 
> (2) Battery Heater
> 
> ...


Have you played around with it already?
Is it CAN controlled?
The previous version of my BMS had an output for a heater relay. This would allow me to simply connect a 220V water heater to heat up the pack before charging if it’s too cold.
The new updated version does not have that feature. There are CAN error messages for temperature that perhaps are usable. So I am thinking of creating some kind of CAN controlled relay/switch to control the 220V heater in the end.
But I’m also exploring other options. A Tesla battery heater could be an option too.
Do you perhaps have more info on it? Thanks in advance.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

oudevolvo said:


> Have you played around with it already?


Not yet, we're busy working on the battery boxes. Damien had a quick look inside the battery heater recently;


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks! I was a little behind on his updates but have watched all of them now.
After exploring the possibilities I concluded that a 220V water heater will do in my case. I already have a PTC element for cabin heating. The fluid heater is just for the batteries. Being able to heat the batteries while driving / not being plugged in to a charger does not add any value in my case.

Looking forward on your updates on the battery boxes!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Lots fabrication underway on the main battery box (located between the main chassis rails) which I'll share next week 

In the meantime I'm playing with electric parking brakes from the BMW X5/X6


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've now received the CCS connectors with cables and solenoid/lock. It will be interesting to see how much power we can push through them


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> In the meantime I'm playing with electric parking brakes from the BMW X5/X6


So BMW uses an electric motor to pull mechanical cables to actuate mechanical parking brakes, combining all of the complication of both mechanical and electric actuation systems, with no benefit other than to replace a lever in the console with a switch? This is why I have no desire to own a BMW!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> This is why I have no desire to own a BMW!


It's a very common technique although most new cars use actuators built into the brake calliper... that would have been my preference because it does away with cables but I can't find any that fit my discs


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It's a very common technique although most new cars use actuators built into the brake calliper... that would have been my preference because it does away with cables but I can't find any that fit my discs


Yep, that's the rational design.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Damien kindly arranged to have some Tesla cups modified for me... this will let me test the VAG driveshafts with the 'small' drive unit


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

First stage of the main battery box fabrication is nearing completion. This steel structure will be welded into place between the main chassis rails providing additional stiffness to the VW chassis and a sealed enclosure for eight Tesla modules


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very good concept. Does that box weigh much more than the metal it is replacing? How much weight do you expect the bare chassis to increase by and then add with components over the ice setup?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> First stage of the main battery box fabrication is nearing completion. This steel structure will be welded into place between the main chassis rails providing additional stiffness to the VW chassis and a sealed enclosure for eight Tesla modules





tylerwatts said:


> Does that box weigh much more than the metal it is replacing?


In the current design, is this box replacing any metal at all, or is it added under the floor?

Here's Kevin's earlier description:


Kevin Sharpe said:


> 3D mockup of proposed Tesla module layout for the two battery boxes. One box (8 modules) will be mounted under the floor between the chassis rails, and another (6 modules) above the motor where the petrol tank was located


(follow the link back to this post where there is a drawing)


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

tylerwatts said:


> How much weight do you expect the bare chassis to increase by and then add with components over the ice setup?


Kevin's earlier report in this thread:


Kevin Sharpe said:


> I spent some time reviewing the weight of the Bus conversion today;
> 
> The original bus weighed 1036kg (2285lbs).
> 
> ...


So the net increase is 210 kg and counting, and likely about four hundred kilograms by completion.


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Thanks for your updates Kevin! That looks like a very solid box. What is the thickness of the sheetmetal used?
And how do you mount / hang the modules in it?
Do you mean 8 in such a box or is this box for one module? (difficult to estimate the size on the photo)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Hopefully these photos will help 

The basic idea is that we're creating a steel lined cavity between the main chassis rails that is large enough to encase 8 Tesla modules.

The Tesla modules are not attached to the cavity lining directly, rather they are mounted on a 5mm thick steel plate that becomes the floor of the cavity. The cavity floor is bolted to the base of the cavity lining structure using ~30 stainless fixings. To ensure the cavity remains airtight we will use a flexible sealant between the cavity floor and cavity lining structure, similar to the technique used on the Nissan Leaf battery.

To accommodate the weight of the battery we have extensively reinforced the chassis rails and the van floor.

At both ends of the cavity we will fit Tesla 'exhaust' valves and sheet steel to duct away exhaust gases from the main cabin in the event of a battery fire.

Hopefully we'll have the metal work installed early next week and I'll record a video at that time. I'll also weigh the bus again to see what the impact of this steel has been


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Good progress on the panel that will become the 'floor' of the main battery box. This structure will be inverted and the box section welded to the reinforced main chassis members providing a sealed cavity for eight battery modules. Every bolt has a corresponding nut that is welded to the box section and final airtightness will be provided by sealant similar to that used on the Nissan/Tesla batteries


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

reusing the Tesla Model S/X pressure release valves... two sets at each end of the main battery box


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

In the M3, Tesla still uses valves like these with some mounted at the back of the pack. Look at ~3:26 in the vid: https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-permanent-magnet-motor/


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> In the M3, Tesla still uses valves like these with some mounted at the back of the pack. Look at ~3:26 in the vid:


Interesting, thanks


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Main battery box lining test fitting


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> reusing the Tesla Model S/X pressure release valves... two sets at each end of the main battery box


 I notice in the video they refer to these vents as "Fire Vents".
Does anyone know roughly what pressure they operate at ?
I wonder if they also vent (both ways) to compensate for temperature changes inside the battery casing ?


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Karter2 said:


> I wonder if they also vent (both ways) to compensate for temperature changes inside the battery casing ?


There is an another vent on top of the battery wit a sort of filter in it, I presume that's the one for equalizing pressure.

The rubber vents are a sort of check-valves, only air out.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

boekel said:


> There is an another vent on top of the battery wit a sort of filter in it, I presume that's the one for equalizing pressure.


That's my assumption as well, we're fitting a separate vent for pressure equalisation.


----------



## Jimbo69ny (Feb 13, 2018)

boekel said:


> There is an another vent on top of the battery wit a sort of filter in it, I presume that's the one for equalizing pressure.
> 
> The rubber vents are a sort of check-valves, only air out.


Do you have photos of this? I havent seen another valve before.


----------



## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Jimbo69ny said:


> Do you have photos of this? I havent seen another valve before.


----------



## Jimbo69ny (Feb 13, 2018)

That was quick! Thank you! Very interesting.


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Jimbo69ny said:


> Do you have photos of this? I havent seen another valve before.


Further to boekel's amazing photos, the part in question is a custom version of this according to an email we received from AGM;

https://www.agmcontainer.com/breather_valves/ta292-r


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We spun up the Tesla motor for the first time this week... just a short test at ~150V to test Damien's inverter controller 

Next step is to install the driveshafts and fill it with oil so that we can start spinning the wheels


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Excellent progress. Looks at home under there. Apart from her guys hanging out haha. That suspension setup is smart too. Nice job Kevin.


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I've been calling breakers on a regular basis and last week I was offered a 100kWh pack from a fire damaged Tesla Model X 

15 of the 16 modules were not damaged by the fire and I'll be using 12 in my bus for a total battery capacity of 75kWh


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Interesting! Was this the kne with damage around the bulkhead?

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I've been calling breakers on a regular basis and last week I was offered a 100kWh pack from a fire damaged Tesla Model X
> 
> 15 of the 16 modules were not damaged by the fire and I'll be using 12 in my bus for a total battery capacity of 75kWh


That’s great but have you measured just how much the 100D modules weigh vs the regular 85/90 modules.


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## Jimbo69ny (Feb 13, 2018)

You should go with leaf batteries instead. lmao!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> Interesting! Was this the kne with damage around the bulkhead?


sorry Mike, I don't understand the question


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

AEM said:


> That’s great but have you measured just how much the 100D modules weigh vs the regular 85/90 modules.


The 6.4kWh modules weigh 66lbs (30kg) each. The 5.2kWh modules weigh ~58lbs (26kg) each.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Jimbo69ny said:


> You should go with leaf batteries instead. lmao!


The 50kWh Leaf battery I built weighed 882lbs (400kgs). In the photo you can see 1/4 of the finished item.

The 75kWh Tesla battery will weigh ~800lbs (360kgs). I have the option of reducing the pack to 50kWh (8 modules) which would weigh ~540lbs (245kgs).


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

There was a fire damaged model s recently. Fire was near the windscreen/bonnet area.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

skooler said:


> There was a fire damaged model s recently.


No, Model X in Europe


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## AEM (Sep 12, 2014)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The 6.4kWh modules weigh 66lbs (30kg) each. The 5.2kWh modules weigh ~58lbs (26kg) each.


Hah thanks for answering my question.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The 50kWh Leaf battery I built weighed 882lbs (400kgs). In the photo you can see 1/4 of the finished item.
> 
> The 75kWh Tesla battery will weigh ~800lbs (360kgs). I have the option of reducing the pack to 50kWh (8 modules) which would weigh ~540lbs (245kgs).


Thats a good difference in weight from the Leaf to Tesla for the same kWh size pack.


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Main battery box lining being prepared for spot welding to the floor I beams


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Main battery box 'floor' structure ready for welding to the bus chassis rails (note holes for fire exhaust valves at each end of battery box)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Main battery box awaiting seam welding


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Main battery box awaiting seam welding


Great fab work! Massive torsion/battery box, low CoG, aftermarket multilink suspension: it should handle like a sports car.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Rather a lot of seam welding


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> it should handle like a sports car.


Yeh, I think for most people a 50kWh battery in the belly of the van would be an awesome conversion


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Well it's definitely in there now Kev! Good progress sir.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Nice paint job


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tesla P100 Battery cooling connectors;

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=977745&postcount=218


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## Steel (Feb 12, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Rather a lot of seam welding


Yes, and all welding sparks in your trousers 

BR Pär


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## Steel (Feb 12, 2018)

Been reading your thread all morning, congratulations to a fantastic build !!!

BR Pär


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Steel said:


> Been reading your thread all morning, congratulations to a fantastic build !!!


Many thanks, it's a lot of fun


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Can't wait to have CCS charging... Fastned in The Netherlands have started deploying 175kW chargers (with 350kW upgrades in the pipeline) 

Here's a Hyundai Ioniq charging ~50% faster today


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Finally we're ready to install the cups, driveshafts, and fill up the transmission oil


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

In the next week or so we hope to install the Front HVJB, DCDC, and Battery Heater in the front of the bus. I'm also building a simple cabin air heater box that will use a Tesla blower, PTC heater, and a radiator for recovering waste heat from the motor (probably just the stator cooling circuit).

Today we prepared the two Tesla chargers and Rear HVJB for installation


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## Steel (Feb 12, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> In the next week or so we hope to install the Front HVJB, DCDC, and Battery Heater in the front of the bus. I'm also building a simple cabin air heater box that will use a Tesla blower, PTC heater, and a radiator for recovering waste heat from the motor (probably just the stator cooling circuit).
> 
> Today we prepared the two Tesla chargers and Rear HVJB for installation


Hello, that is going to be very interesting
BR Pär 


Skickat från min SM-G800F via Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Steel said:


> Hello, that is going to be very interesting


That's good news


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Mapping out locations for the Front HVJB and DCDC in the front of the bus. Note also the dual circuit brake cylinder 'upgrade' and the EV West throttle pot


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

EV West Throttle Pot (here)


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Looks amazingly like the Evnetics Soliton designed throttle pot.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Battery box 'floor' test fitting


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## joellove (Apr 7, 2018)

This is truly amazing.

I personally am just starting a vw bus 1969 project, and am wanting to use the most simple, most recycled options available. 

I am on the big island of Hawaii, and could really use a phone pal, or someone to bounce ideas off of.

I have access to about 15 of these vans in various conditions. I plan to fully restore the bodies of them, and put recycled DC motors in them with recycled batteries (i understand how much work rebuilding batteries and testing each cell is). I also plan to solder solar cells for a durable roof rack system.

Mahalo for all you passion. 

I am brand new to this forum and this is my first post!

blessings

Joel
5036088697


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

joellove said:


> This is truly amazing.


I'm surrounded by talented people 



joellove said:


> I am on the big island of Hawaii, and could really use a phone pal, or someone to bounce ideas off of.


You'll find this forum helpful and I'd recommend The Samba (here) for everything VW related.



joellove said:


> I have access to about 15 of these vans in various conditions. I plan to fully restore the bodies of them, and put recycled DC motors in them with recycled batteries (i understand how much work rebuilding batteries and testing each cell is).


I'd recommend you take a look at Damien's 1000 Euro build project (here).

With regards to batteries I'd recommend you recycle modules from other EV's like the Volt, Leaf, or Tesla. Don't bother building your own batteries using 18650's or similar cells... you'll spend a lot more money and a lifetime on something that is severely compromised with regard to safety 



joellove said:


> I also plan to solder solar cells for a durable roof rack system.


If you keep the weight and drag to a minimum then you can expect the solar to help charge the leisure battery... however, don't expect it to make any useful contribution to driving range.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Really pleased with the panels on either side of the battery box


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We've been working on the battery module assembly and have selected the Lithium Balance BMS (here) and the New Electric interface boards (here).

I've been impressed by the New Electric builds that I've driven and they have used the Lithium Balance BMS for a number of years. It's also becoming clear that CE certification is important for those people who are planning to convert vehicles in Europe


----------



## Jimbo69ny (Feb 13, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> We've been working on the battery module assembly and have selected the Lithium Balance BMS (here) and the New Electric interface boards (here).
> 
> I've been impressed by the New Electric builds that I've driven and they have used the Lithium Balance BMS for a number of years. It's also becoming clear that CE certification is important for those people who are planning to convert vehicles in Europe


Interesting, you just replace the Tesla boards with those?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Jimbo69ny said:


> Interesting, you just replace the Tesla boards with those?


The photos show the interface boards between the Tesla Modules and the Lithium Balance BMS


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Installing the two Tesla Chargers and High Voltage Junction Box


----------



## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> We've been working on the battery module assembly and have selected the Lithium Balance BMS (here) and the New Electric interface boards (here).


Very nice! Did not know they had these interface boards.
Are you using the sBMS or the nBMS from Lithium Balance?


----------



## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I may have missed it. Are you using modified 6S to 12S modules to maintain the stock Tesla pack voltage with your 8 module pack? Keep up the great work!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Are you using modified 6S to 12S modules to maintain the stock Tesla pack voltage with your 8 module pack?


The most recent plan as I recall is for 12 modules in total: 8 under the floor, and 4 more in the back over the motor. That's 3/4 of stock voltage with stock modules.

Kevin has mentioned a few times (in this and other discussions) that the Tesla motor works acceptably on much less than the full pack voltage. That makes sense to me, especially if the high end of the motor speed range isn't needed... and who wants to drive that fast in a bus?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

How are you going to control two chargers?

Need a master/slave software setup?
Using canbus to tell the slave what the limits are, and to tell it when the AC voltage is going to be present.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

electro wrks said:


> I may have missed it. Are you using modified 6S to 12S modules to maintain the stock Tesla pack voltage with your 8 module pack?





brian_ said:


> The most recent plan as I recall is for 12 modules in total: 8 under the floor, and 4 more in the back over the motor. That's 3/4 of stock voltage with stock modules.


That's correct, 12 standard P100 modules in my VW bus build.

I'm aware of another project that is using 13 P85 modules in a series production vehicle, and a proposal to use 8 P100 modules (modified to 12S) in a 'kit'. This all works because we have the open source controllers


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tomdb said:


> How are you going to control two chargers?


We're committed to supporting the open source controllers and will sponsor the software development if necessary  At this time our focus is to get one charger working and the bus on the road... lots of additional features will arrive overtime including, CHAdeMO, CCS, Instrumentation, etc., etc.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

oudevolvo said:


> Are you using the sBMS or the nBMS from Lithium Balance?


We're using the s-BMS (1x BCMU and 9 x LMU). We've been discussing the idea of developing a Tesla LMU to reduce the amount of hardware


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

mocking up the fan/rad support bracket in one of the two 'cooling cabinets'


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

fan/rad support bracket in place... still to come are the side panels that will seal the 'cooling cabinet' and some splash protection for water thrown up by the rear wheels (we've taken the precaution of using IP67 fans and will use boots on the light fittings).

The basic idea is that cooling air will be sucked in from the slots on the side of the bus, travel down through the radiator (not fitted in the photos), through the fan, and finally exit via the hole behind the rear wheel. At this time we've no real idea how much/little cooling the electrical systems require so this is an experiment to say the least


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

Thats a neat use of space. Im planning something similar for may jaguar. It used to have two petrol tanks behind the rear wheels in the rear wings. I'll stash a charger in each side and there will be room for a small radiator and fan similar setup to yours. Would you mind sharing the details of your fan?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

itchyback said:


> Would you mind sharing the details of your fan?


We used 9" suction fans from SPAL (VA02-AP70/LL-40A)


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

If you'd like to see the bus or talk about electric drive, I'll be at the Fully Charged Live show in June 

Fully Charged Live Show


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## Steel (Feb 12, 2018)

Great, that will be very interesting 

BR Pär


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Frame for twin chargers and HVJB ready for mounting under the rear seat


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## imtb (Apr 25, 2017)

Impressive build. Any idea when your launch date is?

Also I am curious how you are going to wire two battery chargers. I am going have too also and not sure how to hook them up, when pack is hooked up in parallel.


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## Jimbo69ny (Feb 13, 2018)

Do you have a budget for this build? This is one of the most detailed and extensive builds I have seen.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

imtb said:


> Impressive build.


Many thanks, it's a lot of fun 



imtb said:


> Any idea when your launch date is?


It will be on the road later in the year... lots of updates will then follow including instrumentation, fast charging, etc.



imtb said:


> Also I am curious how you are going to wire two battery chargers.


The two chargers are connected in parallel within the rear High Voltage Junction Box ("HVJB"). The end result is one powerful (~22kW) charger


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Jimbo69ny said:


> Do you have a budget for this build?


I don't really have a budget, I spend whatever it takes... that said, I do invest a lot of time finding 'bargains' (100kWh Tesla pack for 15K euro's for example) and selling parts I don't need. I also foster relationships with other EV people which results in many bargains and group buy opportunities  



Jimbo69ny said:


> This is one of the most detailed and extensive builds I have seen.


I'm glad it's helpful... one thing I'm missing is a detailed cost breakdown... I'll do that when I get a moment


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Change of plan on the cooling... I found a couple of CSF Drag Race Radiators which at 14.5" x 10" x 3.5" (~6" with fan fitted) are a good fit for the 'cooling cabinets' 

Will be a shame to have such beautiful items out of sight 

http://csfrace.com/the-king-cooler/


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## zacreth (Apr 13, 2018)

Hey Kevin,

I've been trying to read up as much as I can about converting ICE to and Electric power and was set on using DC motors to enjoy driving at fast speeds when I wanted with somewhat a decent range. 

I love your build up and have changed by decision from DC to a Tesla drive unit. My question is this... will you implement AC components to your bus by chance and how does Tesla do AC?

With a DC motor I was looking at evwest adapter to mount the compressor and run it off the DC motor. With a sealed AC motor I'm not sure how this will be accomplished...

Much thanks and keep up the good work!

Zac


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

zacreth said:


> I love your build up and have changed by decision from DC to a Tesla drive unit.


Many thanks for the comment Zac... I'm glad you like the build 

Where are you based? Can you get to the Fully Charged Live Show (here)?



zacreth said:


> My question is this... will you implement AC components to your bus by chance and how does Tesla do AC?


I spend most of my time in Northern Europe and rarely need AC so have no plans to implement it on the bus.

However, both Damien's BMW (here) and Jeff's Delorean (here) are implementing AC using Tesla compressors. If you are using the Tesla drive unit then I'd suggest you consider using the rest of the Tesla components (HVJB, DCDC, Charger, PTC Heater, Battery Heater, etc) because that will be a 'plug and play' solution and you'll have plenty of online support from other converters


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I will be installing heated glass, mirrors, and seats in the bus. I've had these fitted on several OEM EV's and it has a huge impact on both cabin heat energy consumption and usability/comfort in cooler climates. 

Heated windscreens were never a manufacturing option on the split screen bus but I was aware of some group buys in the past. I therefore put the call out on several VW forums and as luck would have it purchased some windscreens that had been in someones attic for several years 

I've been running some tests on the windscreens over the last couple of days and they are impressive, heating from 13 degC to 33 degC in 10 minutes while consuming ~60W


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## zacreth (Apr 13, 2018)

Thanks for the comments and I'll look through Damien's and Jeff's project. I already read through their build and I think I might have missed the A/C part...lol.

I'm located in the US in Arizona... only one of the hottest places it feels where in the peak summer it can be over 120F for a week or two..haha


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm reusing the steering wheel/column and switchgear from a 1980's Rolls-Royce. Includes 'gear' selector and cruise control for the Tesla drive unit and supports a wide range of steering wheels including heated


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Very cool with the RR steering setup Kev!


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> Very cool with the RR steering setup Kev!


Yeh, been looking for ages for a gear selector that is contemporary with the age of the bus but also electrical not mechanical.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Finally found some time to fit the CSF Drag Race Radiators. Next step is to add another panel to seal up the cooling air chamber 

** no idea why photos have stopped displaying for me


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> ... no idea why photos have stopped displaying for me


Perhaps the images are too large (dimensions in pixels) to display.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re pictures not displaying
Probably a good thing - when somebody put too large a picture in before you only saw part of it which was a pain when trying to read the post


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Duncan said:


> Re pictures not displaying
> Probably a good thing - when somebody put too large a picture in before you only saw part of it which was a pain when trying to read the post


Seems to be a recent change in forum behaviour because my images uploaded just fine historically. This forum software is a pain... I have none of these issues on the other forums where I posted these images


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

Small question in between, if I may.

You guys have numbers on continous torque rating for the small tesla drive, up to what rpm? Internet says ‚no‘.

Appreciate it, [emoji120] 

Dan


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

aquabiologist said:


> Small question in between, if I may.
> 
> You guys have numbers on continous torque rating for the small tesla drive, up to what rpm? Internet says ‚no‘.


Tesla's motors, like any modern high-voltage AC motor, are essentially constant-torque (limited by current) up to a transition point, then constant-power or moderately dropping power as shaft speed rises from there. The transition point will be approximately the maximum-power point, which the current (2018 March 22) Tesla Model S Owner's Manual lists as 193 kW @ 6100 rpm, with a maximum speed of 18,000 rpm; the same manual lists the maximum torque as 330 Nm. All values are for the small motors (front or rear), and while power ratings are described as "Tested in accordance with ECE R85", there is no indication of how long this output can be maintained.

The transition is apparently not sharp, but rounded over, as 330 Nm @ 6100 rpm would be 211 kW... a bit more than the power rating, so torque must start falling off early enough that it is down to 302 Nm by 6100 rpm (as implied by the rated power).

Although the manual lists specifications for 60, 70, 75, 90, and 100 kWh variants, in single-motor (RWD w/ large motor), dual-motor (AWD with two small motors), and dual-motor Performance (AWD with small front and large rear motors) forms, the provided motor data only varies by motor size (not the battery or the rest of the system), so I assume it is for the drive unit tested with no limit on battery power.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

And what final / fixed ratio is that along with tyre size please Kevin? 330Nm seems low in ice world but at a 10:1 ratio it's like driving round in 2nd gear at 100mph and everything up to that speed is going to have incredible mechanical advantage with the low gear ratio.

Apologies for stepping on toes and invading your thread.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

tylerwatts said:


> And what final / fixed ratio is that along with tyre size please Kevin?


I'll hold off making any final decisions until we've undertaken some testing later in the year. At the moment I have 16" wheels and will let you know the tyre size when I get a moment 

Chris, Damien, and I plan to put the cars on the dyno soon


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

tylerwatts said:


> And what final / fixed ratio is that along with tyre size please...


The overall drive ratio (from motor to axles, not just the final reduction step) is 9.325:1, according to the current Model S owner's manual. Chris found a slightly different ratio:


chrishazell said:


> So both front and rear small drive units are geared the same. Info below.
> 
> Primary drop = 78/31 = 2.516:1
> Final drive = 79/21 = 3.762:1
> Overall ratio = 9.465:1


The stock Tesla tire size varies with model and trim, but they're all relatively large for a car.



tylerwatts said:


> 330Nm seems low in ice world but at a 10:1 ratio it's like driving round in 2nd gear at 100mph and everything up to that speed is going to have incredible mechanical advantage with the low gear ratio.


True, that's like a typical second gear... but the torque starts to drop by 6100 rpm at the motor, which is 654 rpm at the axles or wheels. For instance, with the base P245/45R19 tires of the Model S (so 753 revolutions per mile), that's 45 miles per hour. By 100 mph the motor torque will be less than 149 Nm.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks gents
Very interesting, I honestly expected the motor to hold its torque a bit longer but thinking about it max torque all the way to 40mph is still very good. And I imagine that is continuous rating, plus the drive ratio and wheel effort (radius) still makes a very torquey powerplant.
That bus is going to be a trip!


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

Thats very good info on these peak numbers, cheers to you all.

This is a great build! 

I am asking the following for my own conversion fantasies on my vw T2.

So. Still I am not sure about the continous ratings.

According to this
https://zero-ev.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Tesla-Small-Drive-Unit-Kit.pdf

a Tesla Small Drive does 35 kW continously.

Now if torque is constant up to @ 6100 rpm, this would equal to 55 Nm continous torque?

Thats without cooling i assume.

Anyone dares to predict continous Nm @ xyz rpm? With or without water cooling?









Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

aquabiologist said:


> According to this
> https://zero-ev.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Tesla-Small-Drive-Unit-Kit.pdf
> 
> a Tesla Small Drive does 35 kW continously.
> ...


Since the same source lists 90 kW for 12 minutes, I doubt the continuous rating matters to many potential users.

It wouldn't make sense to me to operate one of these without cooling. The oil needs to circulate anyway for lubrication, so why not cool it as well?


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Since the same source lists 90 kW for 12 minutes, I doubt the continuous rating matters to many potential users.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't make sense to me to operate one of these without cooling. The oil needs to circulate anyway for lubrication, so why not cool it as well?



Guess you are right.

Unless you are in a VW T2 on hilly highways in Switzerland, want to use the original transmission, stay air cooled and have a lead foot. Damn! 




Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Finally getting back to work on the bus and next we'll be installing a rear caliper with integrated electric parking brake (we've abandoned the old BMW system) 😎


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## oudevolvo (Mar 10, 2015)

Wow, what a beautiful build. Everything on this bus is high end.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

oudevolvo said:


> Wow, what a beautiful build. Everything on this bus is high end.


Glad you like it  I'm planning some long trips across Europe and want to avoid taking shortcuts with the build where possible.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

We've decided to rework the cooling system so that we can fit the larger SPAL fans. We will also add a bleed point to the top of the radiators to help with air removal


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

Are they bigger because you need more flow? or are they quieter?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

After many weeks the problems with DIY Electric Car site administration continue  I've decided to move my detailed project posts to The Samba (here) to avoid the possibility of losing more content in the future. I'll post an overview here for those that are interested.

I hope to see you on The Samba forum


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Started work on integrating the Open Vehicles Monitoring System that will give us remote monitoring and control of the bus from a smartphone;

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8828116&highlight=#8828116


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Frustrating isnt it Kevin. Have lost quite a few posts on my build thread too 

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## VSAdmin (Jun 3, 2014)

Testing...


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

A new motor mount from Zero EV is in development 

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8857279&highlight=#8857279


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Wow. Did this thread lose data? Any progress being made here, or am I dredging up a highly-useful dead thread from a year ago?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Wow. Did this thread lose data? Any progress being made here, or am I dredging up a highly-useful dead thread from a year ago?


Not much if anyhing was permanently lost. After major problems with this forum, the builder switched to the other forum (linked in various posts) for updates.

Also, like many builds, progress slowed after the major mechanical assembly work. The "little bit of wiring" at the end often proves to be more work and more problematic than expected.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Wow. Did this thread lose data? Any progress being made here, or am I dredging up a highly-useful dead thread from a year ago?


Most of us have moved to the Open Inverter Forum  We took six electric vehicles to the Fully Charged Live show and have been busy... the bus will be on the road very soon (CHAdeMO rapid charging is now working) 

For more info see here;

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37


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