# Controller for UQM PP125 Motor?



## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey Guys,

I just picked up a PP125 motor only that came out of a CODA test vehicle, however the ex-CODA employee that I got it from did not have the matched controller that went with the motor, in fact he has no controller for the motor. I bought it because it was pennies on the dollar. 

Here are the Specs of the Controller that *usually* comes with the motor:

Operating Voltage
Nominal input range 300 to 430 VDC
Operating voltage input range 240 to 430 VDC
Minimum voltage limit 240 VDC (with derated power output)
Input current limitation 500 A
Inverter Type
Control type PWM & phase advance, 
3-Phase Brushless PM
Power device IGBT module half bridge × 3
Switching frequency 12.5 kHz
Standby power consumption 17 W (inverter and microprocessor)

It is my understanding that the motor needs a square wave type motor controller (maybe trapezoidal). Here are a few questions I would be grateful if some of you more knowledgeable gentlemen could answer:

1) Has anyone run a UQM motor with a non-UQM inverter? 

2) Does anyone have any recommendation on possible inverters that may work? I was thinking that the Scott Drive may work? Or possibly a Rhinehart (not sure if these are square wave)? Maybe a Bamocar?

Thank you in advance,
Brock


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Pretty sure it needs a normal sine wave drive. Rinehart is probably your best bet.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

+1 on that


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

I belive that you are both correct. This is from UQM's website:

PowerPhase® HD System Features:

Power-dense, brushless permanent-magnet motor
****DSP-controlled inverter with sine wave drive****
User selectable torque and speed
CAN bus communication
Real-time data event logging
Liquid cooled (50/50 water/glycol liquid cooling)
Built in safety features


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

winzeracer said:


> Hmmm, I was told by an ex-UQM engineer that it need a square wave? And an ex GM engineer that worked with UQM as well, he said trapezoidal.


If the specs you posted originally are accurate then it would be a permanent magnet motor. If that is the case then the proper power to drive it would be trapezoidal as the GM engineer told you. From what I can see online it does appear to be a permanent magnet motor.

As has been already said, Rinehart Motion is probably the company to talk to. They are *not* cheap at all. Be prepared to hurt. But, the controller is top quality and they seem to be interested in trying to make their controller work with a wide range of motors.


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Looking at the two data sheets It looks like I would need a Rhinehart 150DX hopefully software upgraded to 400v 500amps, to reach the full potential of the motor.

http://www.neweagle.net/support/wiki/docs/Datasheets/UQM/PP125.pdf

http://www.neweagle.net/support/wiki/docs/Rinehart/PMxxxDatasheet01052012.pdf

Any thoughts on this?


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

CKidder said:


> If the specs you posted originally are accurate then it would be a permanent magnet motor. If that is the case then the proper power to drive it would be trapezoidal as the GM engineer told you. From what I can see online it does appear to be a permanent magnet motor.
> 
> As has been already said, Rinehart Motion is probably the company to talk to. They are *not* cheap at all. Be prepared to hurt. But, the controller is top quality and they seem to be interested in trying to make their controller work with a wide range of motors.


Thank you Colin I posted that and then found what it said on UQM's website.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

CKidder said:


> If the specs you posted originally are accurate then it would be a permanent magnet motor. If that is the case then the proper power to drive it would be trapezoidal as the GM engineer told you. From what I can see online it does appear to be a permanent magnet motor.


You know a lot more about motors and controllers than I do but...permanent magnets don't automatically make a motor trapezoidal, do they? BLDC motors are trapezoidal, but that's not because they have permanent magnets, but because of the arrangement of the magnets and the windings, right? Many permanent magnet AC motors are set up for sinusoidal drive, from my understanding (designated PMAC or BLAC), and for this motor the data sheet for the matched controller distinctly says sinusoidal. I don't believe Rinehart offers trapezoidal drive, but I know that it works with UQM motors (along with many other PMAC motors).


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> You know a lot more about motors and controllers than I do but...permanent magnets don't automatically make a motor trapezoidal, do they? BLDC motors are trapezoidal, but that's not because they have permanent magnets, but because of the arrangement of the magnets and the windings, right? Many permanent magnet AC motors are set up for sinusoidal drive, from my understanding (designated PMAC or BLAC), and for this motor the data sheet for the matched controller distinctly says sinusoidal. I don't believe Rinehart offers trapezoidal drive, but I know that it works with UQM motors (along with many other PMAC motors).


So you have run a UQM motor with a Rhinehart before?

Thanks, 
Brock


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

winzeracer said:


> So you have run a UQM motor with a Rhinehart before?
> 
> Thanks,
> Brock


No, but last time I was there they had one sitting on the test bench. Not sure what model though, but presumably that means they have tuned for it.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

Hollie Maea said:


> You know a lot more about motors and controllers than I do but...permanent magnets don't automatically make a motor trapezoidal, do they? BLDC motors are trapezoidal, but that's not because they have permanent magnets, but because of the arrangement of the magnets and the windings, right? Many permanent magnet AC motors are set up for sinusoidal drive, from my understanding (designated PMAC or BLAC), and for this motor the data sheet for the matched controller distinctly says sinusoidal. I don't believe Rinehart offers trapezoidal drive, but I know that it works with UQM motors (along with many other PMAC motors).


I suppose you have a point. It could be a PMAC motor and use sine wave control and still have magnets. I didn't see the reference to the matched controller being sinusoidal. That's a good thing though because such controllers are easier to come by. Still, the control scheme for induction and PMAC aren't the same so the controller still needs to have special support for PMAC to work properly. As you said, the Rinehart controller seems to be able to do this. All roads still seem to lead to the same place.


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## fotajoye (Nov 28, 2011)

CKidder said:


> I suppose you have a point. It could be a PMAC motor and use sine wave control and still have magnets. I didn't see the reference to the matched controller being sinusoidal. That's a good thing though because such controllers are easier to come by. Still, the control scheme for induction and PMAC aren't the same so the controller still needs to have special support for PMAC to work properly. As you said, the Rinehart controller seems to be able to do this. All roads still seem to lead to the same place.


Go to evtv.me and watch last week's show.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

fotajoye said:


> Go to evtv.me and watch last week's show.


Those things are like three hours long...which part specifically?


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## winzeracer (Apr 3, 2012)

fotajoye said:


> Go to evtv.me and watch last week's show.


I watched the show, yes they spun the UQM motor with a UQM inverter, not much relevant to running a UQM with another brand inverter. What part of the show are you referring to?


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## fotajoye (Nov 28, 2011)

winzeracer said:


> Hey Guys,.......
> .....1) Has anyone run a UQM motor with a non-UQM inverter?
> 
> 2) Does anyone have any recommendation on possible inverters that may work? I was thinking that the Scott Drive may work? Or possibly a Rhinehart (not sure if these are square wave)? Maybe a Bamocar?
> ...


If you go to evtv.me; Jack Rickard is working on a method to use a control device he calls a evcu to adapt different controllers to various motors; he has talked of working with Rhinehart to adapt Siemens and UQM motors. If you spent some time at the site you will find he has the device for sale and intends to support it. None of this is free so if you are bottom feeding, He is very intolerant, best forgetaboutit!
And, that's all I have...no additional questions please.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

fotajoye said:


> If you go to evtv.me; Jack Rickard is working on a method to use a control device he calls a evcu to adapt different controllers to various motors; he has talked of working with Rhinehart to adapt Siemens and UQM motors. If you spent some time at the site you will find he has the device for sale and intends to support it. None of this is free so if you are bottom feeding, He is very intolerant, best forgetaboutit!
> And, that's all I have...no additional questions please.


There's a bit of a lack of understanding here about what the GEVCU (or VCUs in general) do. A VCU does not adapt a controller to a motor. Rather, it is the interface between the rest of the vehicle and the controller; it takes, for instance, signals from a throttle and passes on a torque command to the controller in the proper format.

But when a controller gets a torque command from the VCU, it still has to determine the correct power waveform to send to the motor to actually get that torque produced. The software in the controller has to figure that part out, and it depends upon the parameters of the motor being driven. So that's the question in this thread, and the GEVCU doesn't have anything to do with it.

Don't get me wrong--the GEVCU is a nice device (Colin Kidder, who posted upthread, pretty much developed the whole thing, and did a great job) and a VCU is a crucial component of an EV, but it is not the answer to this question.


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