# Bosch SMG 180/120



## andrea.calandri (Mar 30, 2017)

Hi all,

I found an SMG 180/120 from the rear end of a 508 Hybrid )its the same motor of fiat 500e), only motor and gearbox, no battery and no controller.

I would start to find a good inverter/controller to match with or even try to build my own, the problem is that I can't find any documents and/or datasheet of that motor. 

It would be nice, at least, to have the pinout of the sensor plug.

There is anyone here that has some experience with that motor?

Thank you, 

Andrea


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## piotrsad (Apr 14, 2014)

Hi i have this motor also, 
i open it and :
Motor have 12 pairs of magnets and 36 slots for wires,
Motor type PMSM - up 100KW -400V
the output is with resolver 6 wires (sin cos power). 

I looking for some DIY inverter which can poewr up the motor, do you have any idea ?


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## oskar_bogacz (Feb 15, 2018)

Any new info on that front ?


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## MiBa (Mar 28, 2017)

Hi,
I have this motor on my workbench too. 

Compared with other high-efficient motors with a high power/weight ratio like the ones from Emrax, UQM, Yasa, Brusa, phi-power, etc., one will get a big “bang for the buck”  

You will find this 29,2kg motor also in Porsche’s 918 Spyder (front axle). 


I’m planning to use it in a Lotus Elise electric (street legal conversion, light weight, high power)

Reg. your question I will share my investigations (I’m just starting with the project): 

This *Bosch SMG180/120* PMS Motor has:
12 Poles and 6 Pole-pairs. 

The *Resolver* is from Tyco Electronics, a customized precision variant - only made for Bosch. 
Multi Coil Resolver 
Type: MCR605 
Speed: 6-speed (so 6 pole-pairs)
Excitation_Voltage: 7Vrms
Excitation_Frequency: 10kHz
>> so it’s most likely compatible with the AD2S1210 Resolver_Encoder Chip from Analog Devices. 

If you’re interested in the (proprietary) datasheet for that MCR (36 pages, and with a lot of info reg. multi coil resolvers as well) pls. send me a PM. 

Some basic datasheets could be found here: 
http://www.te.com/deu-de/product-CAT-ATS0024.html


The MCR605 pin-layout (6-pin variant): 

1 / green / reference
2 / brown / sine-
3 / blue / sine+
4 / white / cosine-
5 / red / cosine+
6 / yellow / supply 

Best regards
Michael


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## MiBa (Mar 28, 2017)

Hi,
I have this motor on my workbench too 

Compared with other high-efficient motors with a high power/weight ratio like the ones from Emrax, UQM, Yasa, Brusa, Remy, phi-power, etc., one will get a big “bang for the buck”. 

You will find this 29,2kg motor also in Porsche’s 918 Spyder (front axle). 


I’m planning to use it in a Lotus Elise electric (street legal conversion, light weight, high power)

Reg. your question I will share my investigations (I’m just starting with the project): 

This *Bosch SMG180/120* PMS Motor has:
12 Poles and 6 Pole-pairs. 

The *Resolver *is from Tyco Electronics, a customized precision variant - only made for Bosch. 
Multi Coil Resolver 
Type: MCR605 
Speed: 6-speed (so 6 pole-pairs)
Excitation_Voltage: 7Vrms
Excitation_Frequency: 10kHz
>> so it’s most likely compatible with the AD2S1210 Resolver_Encoder Chip from Analog Devices. 

If you’re interested in the (proprietary) datasheet for that MCR (36 pages, and with a lot of info reg. multi coil resolvers as well) pls. send me a PM. 

The MCR605 pin-layout (6-pin variant): 

1 / green / reference
2 / brown / sine-
3 / blue / sine+
4 / white / cosine-
5 / red / cosine+
6 / yellow / supply 

Best regards
Michael


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## MiBa (Mar 28, 2017)

Hi,
I have this motor on my workbench too. 

This Bosch SMG180/120 PMS Motor has:
*12 Poles and 6 Pole-pairs.* 

The Resolver is from Tyco Electronics
Multi Coil Resolver 
Type: MCR605 
Speed: 6-speed (so 6 pole-pairs)
Excitation_Voltage: 7Vrms
Excitation_Frequency: 10kHz
>> so it’s most likely compatible with the AD2S1210 Resolver_Encoder Chip AD Devices. 

The MCR605 *pin-layout* (6-pin variant): 

1 / green / reference
2 / brown / sine-
3 / blue / sine+
4 / white / cosine-
5 / red / cosine+
6 / yellow / supply 

Best regards
Michael


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## veyron (Nov 28, 2018)

Hi , just bumping up the post .. Any info on this bosch motor would be valued in ...Volts :]


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## Rubberburner (Feb 24, 2018)

You can buy the Inverter at Bosch, its called INVCON 2.3:
https://www.bosch-engineering.de/me...duktdatenblaetter/BEG_OHW_eDrive_DE_final.pdf
Sorry I just found a german folder.


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## veyron (Nov 28, 2018)

Thanks! that is something already


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## andrea.calandri (Mar 30, 2017)

Rubberburner said:


> You can buy the Inverter at Bosch, its called INVCON 2.3:
> https://www.bosch-engineering.de/me...duktdatenblaetter/BEG_OHW_eDrive_DE_final.pdf
> Sorry I just found a german folder.



I think that for an hobbist is almost impossibile to buy a InvCon inverter from Bosch and a complete software suite to tune it...


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

You can try diy and find the relevant parameters with trial & error. 

Http://openinverter.org/shop
https://github.com/jsphuebner


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## Rubberburner (Feb 24, 2018)

ask Stephan Dirnberger @ Bosch
[email protected]
He can tell you where you get the parts and software.


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## dilgt (Jan 9, 2019)

It is impossible to run this motor by universal controller? Or convert this motor to run low voltage - 48V and controller by Kelly kac controller?


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## BigBike (Jun 24, 2020)

Morning.
I also have found this Motor to play around with. 

About the inverter: A synchronous motor can be driven with any 3-phase-current - more or less.
If you want any semblence of Nm for your Voltage and no slipping/stuttering, you have to adapt the phases from the motor or the signal from the sensor to the current you send in,
which depends on the position of the sensor towards the coils and so is individual to every series of motors.

So you need an frequency-adapting inverter.
I read that there are ways to make the motor even more efficient.
Not using even 3-phases but to "excenter" the current. (no even 3-phases)
But thats way over my educational level ^^

Does anyone knows what Voltage the motor takes?
400V is written evrywhere, but: 400V in total so 200plus and 200minus or
400plus and 400minus? Makesa huge difference in creating the 3-phased-sine.
Since I still have to assemble some batteries, I havent tested and built any inverter.

Cheers


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## tahleel (Nov 12, 2020)

The Fiat 500E has the same motor as the Porsche 918 Spyder's front axle. However, the Fiat's is rated at 80 kW, whereas the Porsche's is rated at 210 kW. Would it be possible to upgrade the Fiat's controller to bump this up to 210 kW?

Thanks!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I had not looked at this motor in any detail before, but it seems to have been well covered in the press, due to Bosch promotional work and its use in the Fiat 500e and Smart ForTwo ED, but especially the Porsche 918. Anyone interested in an inverter for this motor might want to look for what inverters have been used with Smart ForTwo ED motors as well.

_Bosch_: *Separate motor-generator (SMG)*



tahleel said:


> The Fiat 500E has the same motor as the Porsche 918 Spyder's front axle. However, the Fiat's is rated at 80 kW, whereas the Porsche's is rated at 210 kW. Would it be possible to upgrade the Fiat's controller to bump this up to 210 kW?


When a motor has two substantially different ratings in two different applications, the reason is usually that one of them (the Fiat 500e in this case) is a rating for continuous or at least high-duty-cycle use, and the the other (the Porsche 918 in this case), is for only very intermittent use. The 500e drives on this motor all of the time; the 918 only uses it under hard acceleration (the motor is at the front and the car's engine drives the rear wheels).

The higher rating probably results from a higher current limit (the a similar maximum voltage), which requires more cooling of the motor or just very short periods of use (to give it a chance to cool back down). To deliver that current, the inverter needs higher current output... and it's unlikely that Fiat paid for a massive inverter to just turn off much of its capability in configuration.

The SMG 180 series (180 mm diameter motors) has a maximum speed of 12,800 RPM. At whatever current Bosch considers suitable in an EV application the SMG 180 (presumably in the 120 mm length) is rated by them for 200 Nm of torque output.
A typical article triggered by a Bosch press release: Bosch SMG 180/120 electric motor for compact EVs and hybrids


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## BigBike (Jun 24, 2020)

I think thats not possible.
First, the Spyder has two of these motors, at each front wheel one, so double the 80kW.
Second, the number of kWs is not fixed and the motor is built for 40kW continuous power and only for short times, 80kW are possible.
Maybe, it also can go for 105kW (210kW for 2 motors) for even shorter periods
or
you mixed it up with horsepower. 80kW equals around 108 horsepower, that would fit the numbers given by you, if you round it down a bit. (160kW with 2 motors or 216hp. With friction, uneven loads at for example curves and electrical limitations 210hp)

It wasnt the answer, you wanted to hear, sorry!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BigBike said:


> First, the Spyder has two of these motors, at each front wheel one, so double the 80kW.


Good catch! 



BigBike said:


> Second, the number of kWs is not fixed and the motor is built for 40kW continuous power and only for short times, 80kW are possible.


Bosch quotes 40 kW at 250 V (for typical hybrid applications) and 80 kW at 400 V (for typical EV applications).



BigBike said:


> Maybe, it also can go for 105kW (210kW for 2 motors) for even shorter periods
> or
> you mixed it up with horsepower. 80kW equals around 108 horsepower, that would fit the numbers given by you, if you round it down a bit. (160kW with 2 motors or 216hp. With friction, uneven loads at for example curves and electrical limitations 210hp)


The press coverage all quotes 210 kW (total of two motors) for the front axle of the 918; this is just a duty cycle issue.

So, 105 kW for intermittent use (temporary performance mode, limited to a few seconds?) seems reasonable, with 80 kW for typical EV duty cycle. Of course the inverter needs to be able to handle the required current at the required voltage.

The 918 has only a single 115 kW generator on the engine, so any total front axle power beyond that is drawing down the battery, which is only a little 6.8 kWh pack - small for a plug-in hybrid. High front drive power is clearly not intended to be sustained.


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## BigBike (Jun 24, 2020)

Wow!! - That even helps me! :-D So Thanks!
The 400V are really nescessary at the motor then. 
Because I need a dutycycle of max 90% for the PWM of my inverter, I rather need 450V so that 90% of it reach the 400V at the motor. Thanks 🙃


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

BigBike said:


> The 400V are really nescessary at the motor then.
> Because I need a dutycycle of max 90% for the PWM of my inverter, I rather need 450V so that 90% of it reach the 400V at the motor.


I suspect that when Bosch specified 400 volts they meant a pack with a peak charged voltage of 400 V, since that's normal in the industry (for 360 volt nominal, 96S lithium-ion battery). The full battery voltage would only be needed in the upper part of the motor speed range.


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## PawelB (Nov 7, 2020)

Hello to all forum members.
Many thanks for sharing the information about the SMG180/120.
This is my first post, so I'll briefly introduce myself. I'm in the middle of a low-budget motorbike project. For a few reasons, the ideal drive for my project is an axial flux motor such as (virtual only) D144/576 from Ashwoods. 
The Phi271, Yasa P400, Evo AF125/130 are beyond my price range and need a little more than my modest 290V/250A/6.3KWh, so I abandoned the axial flux motor search and came across two smallest SMG on the market from Bosch 180/120 and 138/80 (both most probably designed by EM Motive)
SMG180/120 is quite cheap (~ £ 2,500-3,000 brand new for PSA hybrid cars) and readily available, it's small, 29-32Kg, 35-90KW, 160-200Nm, 250-400V (depending on OEM application), 12,800 rpm and water cooled ...
Honestly, it is difficult for me to find something technically better in the budget I founded. Maybe with a small exception of the Dynax 500e from Compact Dynamics.
Please share your information if you have anything else about the SMG180, specially if someone managed to run it on an equally low-cost inverter such as EPF2.3 or INVCON2.3. 😀
Thanks


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

PawelB said:


> SMG180/120 is quite cheap (~ £ 2,500-3,000 brand new for PSA hybrid cars) and readily available, it's small, 29-32Kg, 35-90KW, 160-200Nm, 250-400V (depending on OEM application), 12,800 rpm and water cooled ...


That's small for an EV motor, but still seems large for a bike. Wouldn't the SMG 138/80, running at high voltage, be a better fit for a bike? I haven't seen any good specs for it, other than the Bosch chart of motor applications in hybids and BEVs.


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## PawelB (Nov 7, 2020)

brian_ said:


> That's small for an EV motor, but still seems large for a bike. Wouldn't the SMG 138/80, running at high voltage, be a better fit for a bike? I haven't seen any good specs for it, other than the Bosch chart of motor applications in hybids and BEVs.


Hi Brian, 
As you said 180/120 is not the smallest for the eBike, especially with the battery it needs. Of course, the SMG138/80 is much smaller (11 Kg) and will fit without any problems even into the smaller frame than my Suzuki SV650, and the battery will last much longer. But these 200Nm won't let me sleep. I'll be sick if I don't try. 🤪


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

MiBa said:


> Hi,
> I have this motor on my workbench too.
> 
> Compared with other high-efficient motors with a high power/weight ratio like the ones from Emrax, UQM, Yasa, Brusa, phi-power, etc., one will get a big “bang for the buck”
> ...


Hello Michael, I'm just trying to get the basics first to figure if I can configure a system to work for what I want.
The motor is 80KW 400V 12,800RPM but what is maximum current the motor draws and hence current for battery pack based on 400V ? or whatever is really used which in the case of the Fiat 500e is reported to be 364V so roughly 225A but can the amperage go higher so I can use a 290V battery and still get 100HP ?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVMAC70 said:


> The motor is 80KW 400V 12,800RPM but what is maximum current the motor draws and hence current for battery pack based on 400V ?


The 400 volt value is likely the maximum battery voltage, with a nominal of 360 V. Assuming it is really running at 400 V and producing 80 kW it is using 200 amps; this is usually over a broad speed range (with power limited by the controller logic). Actual motor voltage will be lower at lower speeds, with corresponding higher current, but the inverter handles that so the DC link (battery to controller) is still 200 A @ 400 V regardless of motor speed; the lowest motor voltage and highest motor current will be the lowest speed of that range, and will correspond to maximum torque and motor current... but the battery current is still 200A. For lower speed, the motor voltage goes down while the motor current stays the same, and so the power goes down and the DC link (battery) current is lower.



EVMAC70 said:


> ... or whatever is really used which in the case of the Fiat 500e is reported to be 364V so roughly 225A but can the amperage go higher so I can use a 290V battery and still get 100HP ?


364 volts is likely the nominal voltage, corresponding to up to 400 V full charged (and substantially less than 364 V when nearly discharged); 225 does seem like a more likely maximum DC link current.

The inverter trades voltage for current for you. Up to some motor speed 290 V should still be enough to produce 80 kW - with 276 A - but above that speed power, will drop off because you won't have enough voltage to overcome the back-EMF of the motor and still push enough current through the windings.

The other issue is that each controller/inverter is designed for a specific range of voltage, and if the voltage is too low it won't operate, even if the voltage is high enough for the motor to produce substantial power.


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

brian_ said:


> The 400 volt value is likely the maximum battery voltage, with a nominal of 360 V. Assuming it is really running at 400 V and producing 80 kW it is using 200 amps; this is usually over a broad speed range (with power limited by the controller logic). Actual motor voltage will be lower at lower speeds, with corresponding higher current, but the inverter handles that so the DC link (battery to controller) is still 200 A @ 400 V regardless of motor speed; the lowest motor voltage and highest motor current will be the lowest speed of that range, and will correspond to maximum torque and motor current... but the battery current is still 200A. For lower speed, the motor voltage goes down while the motor current stays the same, and so the power goes down and the DC link (battery) current is lower.
> 
> 
> 364 volts is likely the nominal voltage, corresponding to up to 400 V full charged (and substantially less than 364 V when nearly discharged); 225 does seem like a more likely maximum DC link current.
> ...


Thanks Brian, I already understand what you have written his lengthy and detailed explanation will benefit those who dont necessarily understand what variable speed drives do. You did get to what I need to know which is what is the lowest input voltage for the controller (VSD) my batteries are nissan leaf 64ah so they can handle 240A continuous and 520A peak so no issue with handling the current in my pack, I had 275A but whats an amp between ev friends eh! Lets keep digging I think we are all keen to get one of these motors in play somewhere in a project. I am going to try to find a PMSM controller (VSD) that's within the range we all need, Thanks Again


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

So because I'm an engineer and I like to bring the numbers together for the Fiat 500E Motor & Gearbox

Motor Type PMSM - Permanent Magnet Synchronous Machine
Motor Voltage = 400V
Motor Current = 200A
With 400V Synchronous speed 12700rpmb

Controller input Power MAX - somewhere near 80KW
Controller input voltage range
???V to ???V I want 290V
Controller input current range
??? to ???V I want 275A

FIAT 500E – 83KW or 111HP with 88MPH top speed b
Curb weight 2980lbs 0 to 60mph 8.4secs
Battery Voltage is 364V
Gearbox ratio is 9.59:1 so 12700 / 9.59 = 1324rpm
185/55R15 tires gives 903.88 RPM for 60MPH
903.88 / 1324 x 60 = 88MPH so we know the VFD maintains 12700rpm regardless of input voltage as expected

For my project Mini 12” wheels with tires gives me 1019 RPM @ 60MPH
Fiat gearbox ratio is 9.59:1
12700 / 9.59 = 1324 RPM so (1324 / 1019) x 60 = 78MPH top speed
But past a certain point the acceleration will decrease due to the reduction in voltage from 400v down to 290V
That’s 290 /400 x 100 = 72.5% of max voltage to the motor so as a very rough estimate best acceleration would be 72.5% of 78 = 56.65 MPH of course it’s not a straight line it’s a curve that we don’t know yet.
Now my reverse trike target and realistic curb weight is 1200lbs thats 1200/2980 x 100 = 40% of the weight of the FIAT 500E so should be pretty damn quick from 0 to 60 if I ever get this thing built somwhere between 4 and 5 seconds although I will a much smaller frontal area so could be under 4 seconds it all depends on that damn curve that I cant see aaargh


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

FOUND THE INVERTER INFO AND A BIT MORE ON THE MOTOR it has the flow rate and all kinds of good info including power & Torque vs RPM curves
@ 


https://dc-dk.resource.bosch.com/media/dk/documents_6/2019_12/techday/presentations_1/ma_7/2019_10_30_Denmark_TechDay_Billund_ELMO_Customer.pdf



INVCON 2.3
Typ. power: up to 100 kW peak - (although its states 85KW as the rating for it )
1) Inverter voltage range: 155 - 430 VDC -( YES !! 290V will be just fine )
2)  Inverter current peak: 450 Arms (more than enough it'll barely break a sweat)
3) (4 sec)  Inverter current cont: 235 Arms 
3), 210 ADC  DCDC power (12V): 2,5 kW 
4) , unidirectional  Water cooled: 8l/min, max. 65°C  IP67, 
IP6K9K  Integrated control software with configuration interface (UDS, BODAS Service) and CAN 2.0 A (500 kbit/s), 
trq- & n-control

MOTOR
 Type Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor (PSM)  Voltage up to 450VDC  Torque (peak/cont.) 200 / 90 Nm  Power (peak/cont.) 90 / 60 kW @ 400VDC  Speed 12,800 rpm  Water cooled 8l/min, 65°C (85°Cmax)  Shaft N25 (DIN 5480)  CE-conformity LVD


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Great information... and it's nice to have the specification of the spline in the motor's output shaft (N25), rather than the usual guess-and-try exercise.


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

brian_ said:


> Great information... and it's nice to have the specification of the spline in the motor's output shaft (N25), rather than the usual guess-and-try exercise.


Yep pretty much all you need to make an informed decision on whether to buy or not, mission accomplishedbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

Anyone know what type of differential they use in the Fiat 500e single speed transmission my guess is the usual open diffbbbbbb


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVMAC70 said:


> Anyone know what type of differential they use in the Fiat 500e single speed transmission my guess is the usual open diffbbbbbb


It's certainly a single-ratio transmission, and even without checking I'm sure it's a conventional open differential.


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

brian_ said:


> It's certainly a single-ratio transmission, and even without checking I'm sure it's a conventional open differential.


OK so now the debate of open vs limited slip, I feel that LSD better than OD, it sounds like I'm talking about drugs not cars


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

PawelB said:


> Hello to all forum members.
> Many thanks for sharing the information about the SMG180/120.
> This is my first post, so I'll briefly introduce myself. I'm in the middle of a low-budget motorbike project. For a few reasons, the ideal drive for my project is an axial flux motor such as (virtual only) D144/576 from Ashwoods.
> The Phi271, Yasa P400, Evo AF125/130 are beyond my price range and need a little more than my modest 290V/250A/6.3KWh, so I abandoned the axial flux motor search and came across two smallest SMG on the market from Bosch 180/120 and 138/80 (both most probably designed by EM Motive)
> ...


HI I have only found one inverter so far that should work with an PMSM motor like this its a Cascadia / Rhinehart PM100DX but its not cheap they sell it on EVWest for about $6,500.00 they state it will work with PMSM and it has a resolver interface & sin / cos encoder interface


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

PawelB said:


> b
> Hello to all forum members.
> Many thanks for sharing the information about the SMG180/120.
> This is my first post, so I'll briefly introduce myself. I'm in the middle of a low-budget motorbike project. For a few reasons, the ideal drive for my project is an axial flux motor such as (virtual only) D144/576 from Ashwoods.
> ...


What you also need to know is that the voltage the motor will see is = Vmotor / sqrt2 so to get the motor its full 400V you would need a 400 x sqrt2 = 565V battery but of course you dont need the full oomph through the entire speed range and this is borne out by looking at saythe Fiat 500e as its battery is 364V so thats 257Vmax to the motor 
257/400 = 0.6425 then x top speed of 88MPH = 56.54MPH so the Fiat uses the full oomph almost all the way to 60mph which is what you would expect for a regular everyday vehicle


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVMAC70 said:


> OK so now the debate of open vs limited slip, I feel that LSD better than OD, it sounds like I'm talking about drugs not cars


Sure, but in practice limited-slip differentials are not used in EVs, and are becoming rare even in conventional vehicles, because it is cheaper and easier to just apply individual wheel brakes for basic traction and stability control. For serious EV performance, separate left and right motors provide more capability than one motor and a complex differential - that is starting to appear.

Someone put the required effort into finding a Quaife helical gear differential to fit every Tesla model's drive unit, and similarly a unit could be found or built for any EV drive unit, but the only market for this is people using those drive units in EV conversion.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVMAC70 said:


> What you also need to know is that the voltage the motor will see is = Vmotor / sqrt2 so to get the motor its full 400V you would need a 400 x sqrt2 = 565V battery but of course you dont need the full oomph through the entire speed range and this is borne out by looking at saythe Fiat 500e as its battery is 364V so thats 257Vmax to the motor
> 257/400 = 0.6425 then x top speed of 88MPH = 56.54MPH so the Fiat uses the full oomph almost all the way to 60mph which is what you would expect for a regular everyday vehicle


I suspect that the specifications of "Voltage up to 450VDC" and "Power (peak/cont.) 90 / 60 kW @ 400VDC" really are DC voltages of the DC link (battery to inverter), not motor phase voltage. Actual AC motor RMS voltages are rarely shown in performance specifications.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

EVMAC70 said:


> https://dc-dk.resource.bosch.com/media/dk/documents_6/2019_12/techday/presentations_1/ma_7/2019_10_30_Denmark_TechDay_Billund_ELMO_Customer.pdf


I had not looked at this presentation before today, just reading the summary extracted to the post. This is a fascinating document, showing that Bosch has a very extensive off-highway vehicle electrification product line.

One interesting item is the EDT180 single-speed coaxial reduction gearbox (page 16 in the presentation), designed specifically to bolt on to the SMG motors, capable of handling the full SMG 180 output, and providing a 3.086:1 speed reduction. That could allow an SMG to be used in the transmission location in the conversion of a traditional front engine rear-drive vehicle with a reasonable rear axle ratio and taking advantage of the full motor speed range. It would add too much length to the motor to be useful in the motorcycle project.


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

brian_ said:


> I suspect that the specifications of "Voltage up to 450VDC" and "Power (peak/cont.) 90 / 60 kW @ 400VDC" really are DC voltages of the DC link (battery to inverter), not motor phase voltage. Actual AC motor RMS voltages are rarely shown in performance specifications.


Yes because if you apply the general rule of Vmotor= Vbatt / sqrt2 it appears you need a lot more volts at the battery end to actually have 0 to 400V to the motor like you said previously there is a point where you begin to fight the back emf and increase current to try to overcome it and thats right where the volts run out, it's a bit like the gearing of some earlier cars real quick from 0 to 40 or 50 then not so much after that although it is still pretty quick relatively speaking you just have to accept top end wont respond like bottom end and then of course you can consider the squaring of the soupy air creating yet more drag as you faster on the freeway so maybe this is an argument for a 2 speed box ?


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

brian_ said:


> I had not looked at this presentation before today, just reading the summary extracted to the post. This is a fascinating document, showing that Bosch has a very extensive off-highway vehicle electrification product line.
> 
> One interesting item is the EDT180 single-speed coaxial reduction gearbox (page 16 in the presentation), designed specifically to bolt on to the SMG motors, capable of handling the full SMG 180 output, and providing a 3.086:1 speed reduction. That could allow an SMG to be used in the transmission location in the conversion of a traditional front engine rear-drive vehicle with a reasonable rear axle ratio and taking advantage of the full motor speed range. It would add too much length to the motor to be useful in the motorcycle project.


Yes encouraging


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

EVMAC70 said:


> HI I have only found one inverter so far that should work with an PMSM motor like this its a Cascadia / Rhinehart PM100DX but its not cheap they sell it on EVWest for about $6,500.00 they state it will work with PMSM and it has a resolver interface & sin / cos encoder interface


OK so I did a little more digging and found it for $5475.00 a huge difference @








Cascadia Rinehart PM100DX | Motors and Controllers | Stealth EV


Shop the Cascadia Rinehart PM100DX and other Motor and Controller products by Stealth EV. Click here to learn more and shop...




stealthev.com


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

EVMAC70 said:


> What you also need to know is that the voltage the motor will see is = Vmotor / sqrt2 so to get the motor its full 400V you would need a 400 x sqrt2 = 565V battery but of course you dont need the full oomph through the entire speed range and this is borne out by looking at saythe Fiat 500e as its battery is 364V so thats 257Vmax to the motor
> 257/400 = 0.6425 then x top speed of 88MPH = 56.54MPH so the Fiat uses the full oomph almost all the way to 60mph which is what you would expect for a regular everyday vehicle


The above is way off as I totally forgot that they quote the motor voltage as peak unless otherwise stated to be rms sorry I am used to rms as its more meaningful.
So that said the motor is 400Vpeak x .707 = 282.8Vrms & the Fiat battery is 364V which equates to 257.35V out of the inverter which then means
257.35 / 282.7 = 0.9 which then means field weakening only occurs @ 88mph x 0.9 = 80mph now it makes sense


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## EVMAC70 (Aug 25, 2019)

EVMAC70 said:


> The above is way off as I totally forgot that they quote the motor voltage as peak unless otherwise stated to be rms sorry I am used to rms as its more meaningful.
> So that said the motor is 400Vpeak x .707 = 282.8Vrms & the Fiat battery is 364V which equates to 257.35Vrms out of the inverter which then means
> 257.35 / 282.7 = 0.9 which then means field weakening only occurs @ 88mph x 0.9 = 80mph now it makes sense


My battery at 290V becomes 205Vrms out of the inverter so 205/282.8V = 0.73 which the means field weakening occurs @ 78mph x .73 = 56MPH
If I add 4 more leaf batteries I get a 319V battery and that ends up with field weakening at 62MPH which is I think where I may compromise
if go all the way to match the Fiat the field weakening would occur at 70MPH hmmm not sure how much more battery I want to add


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## PawelB (Nov 7, 2020)

EVMAC70 said:


> OK so I did a little more digging and found it for $5475.00 a huge difference @
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found something cheaper. 😁
HybridKIT Drive, Evaluation Kit for xEV Main Inverters, HybridPACK | Hitex Shop


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## PawelB (Nov 7, 2020)

And even cheaper
HYBRID KIT DSC | Hitex Shop
HybridKIT1 | Hitex Shop


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## MiBa (Mar 28, 2017)

Hello,
if the size of the inverter/controller does not matter much:

A used Prius Inverter with an Add_on Control Board might be a good choice.






Toyota Prius Gen3 Board - openinverter.org wiki







openinverter.org





Regards
Michael


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## PawelB (Nov 7, 2020)

MiBa said:


> Hello,
> if the size of the inverter/controller does not matter much:
> 
> A used Prius Inverter with an Add_on Control Board might be a good choice.
> ...


Thank you for the advice Michael, of course I consider these options first, but I'm building a motorbike so the KW/Kg (L) is most important to me. If possible, I am going to use Johannes/community edition brain board but with the inverter body and power stage from Continental EPF2.3.


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## TheRealJohnnyB (Nov 4, 2021)

Has anybody had any success with this motor?


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## eric.ensley1 (3 mo ago)

I have this motor in a Honda Odyssey FL350 frame. I am spinning it with an IMA inverter with Lebowski brain. So far only run on jack stands. I have gotten the output drives up to 637 RMP at 200V with 100a FW.


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