# Lithium Battery Bulk Purchase



## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

I decided that the only economical way to build an EV was with lead acid,
but someone put a link up to a Lithium battey supplier in Oz. 

Better prices than LIONEV.com and generous discounts for quantity.

http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm

I still don't know if it makes it affordable, but it would be nice to know who is interested.


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## Sparksfly (Jun 7, 2008)

Hi, these seem to be 3.2v listings. 200Ah is about normal lead acid right? Does that translate when using a different voltage than 12v?
In a simple EV with a 72+ volt Motor that equates to a minimum of 23 serial batteries. Luckily they are slightly smaller (320x230) but are $400 each... 400x23=$9200 minus bulk discount of ten percent = $8300 plus shipping. That in itself might not hold back an enthusiast with a great credit rating... but for the average kiwi bloke it might be a little ear shattering when the wife finds out.

On the upside, With Israel and Denmark wanting at least 700 Li-Ion ev's on the road this year and Nissan/AES wanting to Mass produce automotive Li-Ion cells for possibly 65 thousand units in 2011, then the price might drop at the same rate large screen LCD TV's have with their mass production/consumption.

I think Lead acid is the way to go, and if your local club can get members to arrange a charging "Battery shed" with digital lock and you all use the same batteries ... then you might be able to do the long trips EV style. Especially if you can convince a farmer by offering a place to plug in his electric fence. The club can save money using Night rate relay electric supply.

Cheers


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## linz (May 18, 2008)

There are lots of discussions in the general forums about lithium and anyone considering it should do some research there. Seems to be some activity in Australia which is good as they have similar shipping distance as NZ, or even ship onwards to NZ.

Definitely a lot of talk about the Thundersky batteries, which has had a very bad shipment to the US in 2003 but some discussion about whether they have picked up their game since then. There are other alternatives such as Kokam, PHET...

With Lithium, perhaps one way to minimise risk is to go for a compact car for which a smaller, cheaper pack could be used. GWVR not so important as lead and less weight to drag around. But with lithium so expensive and not one supplier building up a clear track record as yet, and no-one near as long as the supposed rated life of the battery, its risky.


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

You're right, too much risk. 

I'm not going to hold my breath for those Lithium titanate batteries either, the'll be so expensive when we do get a chance to buy them.


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## Weka (May 23, 2008)

Hi

I don't think it is quite as bad as all that. To make an electric car work with lithium batteries we basically need to know if Thundersky's are reliable. They aren't too bad even at the current price points as long as they work and the battery management system can be trusted. I suggest just watching the space and with any luck next year there will be a body of knowledge supporting the idea of a lithium battery car conversion


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## cruz'n (Jul 13, 2008)

I am interested in the bulk purchase. How many people are interested?
and how will it work? That's about 10 people for the biggest discount.
That shouldn't be too difficult.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Im keen to power up an MR2 conversion. Please keep in touch


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I'm keen on a group purchase, but someone will have to help me with shipping on to me in the UK if possible, at my cost of course  

If I go lifepo4 I'll need 45x160Ah packs = another 7200Ah in the pot


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## cruz'n (Jul 13, 2008)

We are ready to buy, is anyone else? Who would you prefer to buy through?
elitepowersolutions.com, beepscom.com, or 
http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm ??


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## KevlarCoated (Aug 3, 2008)

You may want to consider A123 battery packs, they sell direct but they dont list prices on their website you have to email them (www.a123systems.com) They are the same cells in use by the tesla roadster and dewalt 36V tools and many electric bikes.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

cruz'n said:


> We are ready to buy, is anyone else? Who would you prefer to buy through?
> elitepowersolutions.com, beepscom.com, or
> http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm ??


Hi Cruz'n - consider me interested in a bulk purchase from Everspring, they seem good to deal with (got an email back from them)
I would be considering the 90A/hr units and also the BMS for such batteries which no doubt anyone considering an order is also interested in? I got information from Everspring about the BMS but no price yet - anyone else know what the cost is?


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

I have enquired and got the following. Ive just checked back to see about import taxes and that through Australia but i rekon it'll b best to go through them, hopefully 40% discount

EV Power Australia is the Australia/ NZ agent for Everspring Global
Ltd who are authorized distributors of Thunder Sky batteries
worldwide.
Retail prices can be found on the website:
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
Volume price discount:
http://www.everspring.net/txt/discount.htm
This is a guide only. If you have a specific requirement please ask
for a quotation.
Every few months EV Power places a bulk order of Thunder Sky cells on
behalf of its Australian customers.
We pass the savings directly to you.
This results in up to a 40% discount off the retail price for those
prepared to wait for their order.
Please register your interest if you wish to participate. A 10%
deposit will be required.
--- EV POWER TS90 BATTERY BALANCING SYSTEM ---
The TS90 Battery Management System (BMS) is designed and manufactured
in Australia for Thundersky LFP series cells of capacity 40-160Ah.
It is suitable for battery packs of any voltage.
Information on the TS90 is available on the website:
http://www.ev-power.com.au/-Integrated-Lithium-Battery-Systems-.html
Cell modules cost $22 per cell and the master control unit is $318.
Battery fuel gauge functions are incorporated by using the TBS
Battery Monitor.
This gives a complete battery pack fuel level readout with digital
outputs to interface with a computer.
For more information check the website:
http://www.ev-power.com.au/-Other-products-.html
We stock custom made high power Lithium Ion chargers in various voltage
ranges. 144V 15A charger costs $980.
Please contact me if you have further questions.

Regards, Rod Dilkes
EV Power Australia Pty Ltd
www.ev-power.com.au


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks Hadleigh, good to see the BMS prices. What A/hr batteries are you looking at?
I guess they can supply them GST free from Aus and we get to pay it here again. Let us know what you find out about the import taxes.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

I think ill go for the 200AHA, hopefully b able to get me to Palmy and back. Think im working on about 20kw at 100km/h, is that sounds right. Figure ill b able to sell my 2003 skyline if i can travel far enough with these. Ill let u know what else i hear


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Hadleigh Reid said:


> I think ill go for the 200AHA, hopefully b able to get me to Palmy and back. Think im working on about 20kw at 100km/h, is that sounds right. Figure ill b able to sell my 2003 skyline if i can travel far enough with these. Ill let u know what else i hear


Did you end up buying the MR2? Have to admit, provided you don't need the back seats it seems a great donor car. I forget where I read it but 15kW/hr was the experience of the driver on the open road for a similar sized car so you might be a little high.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Oh cool, well maybe i can save a bit on the batts. I got the MR2, 1990, pulled the engine out on saturday! theres no back seat anyway ;-) ill worry about where the batts go later


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

This is what i got from another guy. Looks like this has the full 40% discount straight up. I think it might b best to go through this guy and get the best deal regardless of bulk buys. Maybe we could do it together just to save on shipping? Heres his email
[email protected] But its still rather expensive so im a little hesitant. I might wait til i need them at least (just ordered my motor)

Thanks very much for your interest in our products. You definitely made a great choice to consider about our LFP batteries, since they are high power density batteries especially suitable for gas replacement.

For your order of 60 x LFP200AHA one time, the prices are as bellow and the prices are FOB shenzhen.

LFP200Aha:240$/pc*60pcsConnectors:4$/pc*60pcsJigs and Straps:20$/set*16setsBMS$2,200.00
Charger(255V,60A,15.3kw) $5,700.00



The total price for this pack is:$22,860.00


The shipping cost to New Zealand depends on the the term you choose, by sea it takes around one month and the price is around 500$ and by air it is much faster, around one week, but the shipping cost is much higher. The shipping cost is collected directly by the forwarder after the products arrived your place. and the cost depends on the forwarder you choose, and we have some corporate forwarders can be recommend to you.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks for the info Hadleigh! To save us all emailing the guy, was the supplier Everspring? I guess the prices are in Aussie ? What motor did you end up buying?


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

That is a very good quote for a very powerful system you got there!

I can still only day dream of having enough cash to go for a Lithium system like it though.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Na that last one was from a place called tradwin international, its in Hong Kong. That first one was from EV power australia so pressumable AUSD. Im assuming the last quote is in USD. Although its pretty cheap for lithium, ill admit im having second thoughts, cause thats alot! Maybe thinking about going for the 90AH ones but thats still about $9500NZD jusr fot the batteries and shipping. Im not too sure how this all works but ive roughly worked out that i should get about 1hrs open road driving on 90AH, so that should get me most places i usually go. $40k to get 400AH, that would b cool! Im hoping there will be a bit more competition and the prices will reduce. Lead may b a good way to go in the interim. 

I ordered a netgain warp 11", will just fit in after a few mods ;-) I will fly!


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks again for the info Hadleigh - did it look like you could fit 38kW/hrs into an MR2 after you get that big motor in there? Who are you getting the motor off and how have they been to deal with?
I got a reply from Azure Dynamics and they said have to go through 'Blade to get their products and my experience is like someone else, Blade seems too busy to get back to me about a serious inquiry so.... forced to look at alternatives. MES DEA has not got back either.


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Yo!

THis is my latest from Hong Kong, looks reasonable.

Dear Hadleigh,

Thank you very much for your reply.

Based on your need. the price for 60cells LFP 90Aha batteries pack isthe prices is FOB shenzhen.)

LFP90Aha:108$/pc*60pcsConnectors:4$/pc*60pcsJigs and Straps:20$/set*16setsBMS$2,200.00
Charger(255V,27A,6.885kw) $2,800.00



The total price for this pack is:$12,040.00

About the price of BMS and charger, I understand that your desiring of reduce cost and hope of finding cheap solutions. but since we design BMS and charger specially for each customer's application, and each customer has their own specification. That is the major reason that the cost of the BMS and charger keeps high for some customers. However, these are the price I can offer for your order, and I do not think it will drop in the near future.

I think i might go for something like that a little later when i got the motor and controller. Looks like ill get the warp 9 since i have to keep my gearbox in the MR2 cause its all tied in with the diff and the warp 11 will kill it. I think u can get the motor through Netgain. Ill ck it later


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi guys. I have another supplier, well 2 actually.

The first is Seiden batteries and this is the quote i got from them (better than ThunderSky) 
192V100Ah LiFePO4 battery pack 9982.1
192V25A charger 2092.5
Total price
12074.6

And this is from HiPower, chinabatteries which is even betterSo the price for the 192v100ah is 64 cells*100ah *1.4usd=8960usd 
im just asking about the charger as we speak ;-)

Its all a bit tricky, noone seems to have much experience with any lithium, but China is 1/4 the cost of other producers.

Ill keep you posted


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

With all the activity in the other lithium battery buy threads, was wondering if anyone in this thread ever made a purchase from anyone?


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

I liked some of the deals that the other guys were digging up from China... but I have chosen Deep-cycle lead now. I just don't have $10,000.


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## sawjam (Jun 13, 2008)

My head hurts!! Everything I read changes my mind!! I've got the engine out this weekend and the motor arrived this week, Keep swinging between lead acid and LiFePO4, the same old conundrum.

ADAMEV If you didn't go for LiFePO4, what Lead acid are you looking at?


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

I bought the batteries two weeks ago. I am at the same stage as you by the sounds of it. See the GARAGE and look up VOLTRON. 

I got a very good deal on Exide industrial deep cycle (wet). 12V @ 115 Ahrs. They are 28.3 kg each, so I hope it dosen't cause weight problems (the numbers work out anyway). 

I was considering th 105 Ahrs, but Gavin mentioned that he would like
slightly more capacity ( I think he uses 105 Ahr!?).


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Yo. I was all ready to order some then the dollar kept falling, and falling. So my money wont do much now. Also still waiting for my motor and controller. Petrol has dropped heaps too which doesnt help our cause


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

You're right about the US dollar... $1.86 NZ now! Of course petrol will shoot up again (who knows when) so I just ignore petrol prices now.

$12,000 for that 192V lithium pack is a really good deal. Long term the investment is good if the lithium cells last. What is the discharge current
for the pack? Some packs don't have enough current drain


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## Hadleigh Reid (Jul 22, 2008)

Sorry about the delay. The wind's been blown out of my sails somewhat. Just called US and it seems that after 4 months my warp 9 may be sent in a couple of weeks. Zilla in Jan. 
About the batteries, the weak dollar has stalled that. I have a friens who has a friend who imports from China and gets 'local' prices. He is currently over there sussing things out so i hope to get a good report back from him soon. Will keep in touch


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

ADAMEV said:


> I decided that the only economical way to build an EV was with lead acid,
> but someone put a link up to a Lithium battey supplier in Oz.
> 
> Better prices than LIONEV.com and generous discounts for quantity.
> ...


Dear Adamev,
I'm lorain from Xinghai Energy of China. We manufacture lithium battery and electric bicycle powered by lithium battery .We exports many our prodcuts to Europ and North America.
Our 38120 (3.2V10AH, ) LiFepo4 cell is high power ,which cycle life can come to 2000times with 20C discharge current .It can be uesed to make 12V30AH pack for car stardting power or 48V20AH,48V40AH pack that are suitable for motor drive applications, or 60V/72v pack for car drice power.
If you are interested to know our products,please add my MSN: [email protected]

Best Redards,
Lorain


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Hi Folks. I just paid a deposit for a 300Ah @ 144V pack of Seiden LiFePO4 batteries. Yes, I am having trouble sleeping I got a good deal, as I was already buying solar panels and they agreed to ship the pack to where the panels are being loaded, so its just container space it's costing me, no money as such for freight. 

If anyone wants, I can get the cells at 1.3 US/Ah, in a steel boxed pack of your own design, and I can get them into Australia for only a little more. BMS's are US18 each. I can do a little better than this even, if i have a proper big order. I can get them freighted cheap if there are a few coming across. My pack, which is 300Ah, 144V, ie 135 100Ah cells, came in at 23K US, with BMS, a custom made steel box, cabling etc and some freight (not to Australia, to Shanghai from HK). They want 2400 for the 30A charger though, and only give the 2 year warranty if you use their own charger and BMS, otherwise I think you get 6 months. 

I CAN'T recommend them yet, as the goods haven't arrived, but when they do I'll post some photos, and give them a go. 

Im betting(praying?) that they will make 2000 cycles as claimed, and that they will last me the 8 years this represents, because I hit break even at about 4.5 years. Fortunately my wife is an EV enthusiast with a appetite for risk, so my ears are fine. SO long as the bloody things last out ok. 

BTW they're going in an '83 Rodeo single cab, with an ADC 9". I need to get 200Ks range out of it, so 43kWh is about right, methinks, to 80% DOD. the LI cells weigh 420KG, so I have the capacity to throw a dozen small LA's on too for the longer trips. 

All the best from a long term lurker,
Brett

"Pray for me, my Electric Monks, lest my Faith Waiver..."


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## ADAMEV (Jun 3, 2008)

Hi Brett,

That is an awesome power pack. I am still struggling with the outlay of cash. Dollar for dollar, Lithium and Lead are probably even stevens... apart from the fact I would end up having to change my acid batteries four times over the
time it takes you to have "reduced capacity". Acid+Hassle+weight I agree with, my wallet is still cautious on price.

It's possible that a "commuter pack" with 30km range is possible for me.

It's good to see alot of EV builders who can put their money where their mouth is and buy lithium.

I'm anxious to hear how the seiden batteries work out, they have contacted me over the past year, and it is tempting.


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Well, here we are in March, and I still haven't seen my 300Ah pack. I paid a 6500USD deposit in December, and I feel justified in saying that Seiden Batteries can be very slow. 

News: the Seiden LiFePO4 factory is not in Zuhai, near Shenzen. That is only their sales depot. The factory is in He'nan, which is out in the sticks, and has a less than wholesome reputation as a place. I am a trifle annoyed, as I have friends that could have looked the battery over in Zuhai, but Henan is 1500KM away and they are not at all keen to go. Its a drought blighted dump out there, I am told. 

I have also found that Seiden do not make the BMS etc, and that they are less than happy with their supplier. It has resulted in a lot of delays. In future, I will only be ordering cells from Seiden, not whole systems. I have paid too much for the electronic components, and now I am concerned that it may be junk. 

I will let people know how it all comes off. Fingers crossed.

Pray for me, my Electric Monks.....'cos I am properly worried by now

Brett


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh Jeez Brett, I really honestly hope things work out. My electroprayers go out to you! If this works out ok, and if you can report all the costs/taxes once complete you'll be providing a massive service to EVers in NZ... As well as having a Lithium battery pack too of course.
Good luck!


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## rwt33 (Dec 4, 2008)

We're having delivery issues with ThunderSky's too. Ordered them about 4 months ago from evcomponents but they're having shipping problems. Here's hoping things get sorted soon...

Rob


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi guys,

I stumbled upon this the other night:

http://www.surplustronics.co.nz/shop/product-BAT0600BB.html

Pros:

*Less than half the price of TS or CALB (SE) cells in $/Wh. *That's based on a single box of 200 cells. Maybe an even better price for lots of 10,000 cells (17.4kWh)?
Probably higher discharge current of at least 5C.
Similar or better weight / size (although weight isn't specified on the site).
Local supplier.
Cons:


Need to make up 3.7V batteries from, say, 100 cells for 47Ah. No BMS needed for the parallel batteries, only the series strings. I was thinking of clamping the tags on between a pair of 220x60mm (minimum) copper plates per side. The inner plates would be slotted and drilled/tapped for retention screws. A CNC mill would make short work of the plate machining.
The BMS would need to have temperature sensing of individual cells and good failsafes. The chemistry is most likely to be LiCoO2.
Unknown performance and lifecycle. Surplustronics sell these cells in small quantities so testing and datalogging could be done very easily.
Unknown supply quantity. Surplustronics seems to do a few "one off" sales.
I'd get straight into testing / datalogging these cells myself but I'm living away from home for the next 3 months so I don't have ready access to my lab equipment. Is anyone else interested in these cells?

I could help with a charge / discharge datalogger. I have a smart charger that I designed and built at uni a few years ago. It has a synchronous buck converter controlled by a dsPIC micro, voltage and current measurement up to 10A IIRC and serial comms. I could reprogram it to datalog.

Sam.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

Bad news. They're out of stock. No further surplus stock planned.

We could look at similar bulk lots of small cells ex China but sampling / testing / quality control becomes an significant issue. Oh well!

Sam.


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## carrott (Aug 19, 2008)

KiwiEV said:


> if you can report all the costs/taxes once complete you'll be providing a massive service to EVers in NZ...


There were no duties apart from GST when I brought in Thunder Sky Cells in 2008. They came via Blade Electric Vehicles in Australia and Steve handled most of the shipping stuff, but it was fairly straightforward.

Likewise there was no duty on my inverter and motor (but be sure your inverter comes in as a "Variable Speed Drive" or there is (or was) a duty in addition to the GST.


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Hello folks, 

My 300Ah 144V EV battery has arrived. I paid my deposit in December, and it arrived last week, so, no production records have fallen.

Its a Seiden battery. The good news: 

1. It arrived. (Unlike my Zilla 1KLV that i put a 500USD deposit on  )
2. The boxes are full of LiFe cells, not cans of dog food, 
3. It appears to be of the correct voltage and specification

The bad news: 

1. 6 months waiting for the BMS! 
2. Really poor termination and fittings. Will need to re-do the lot. They are soft soldered onto undersize cables with no heatshrink and stray copper hairs all over the show. 
3. the boxes, and BMS case are steel, 1MM plate, welded up and powder coated. They are really nice looking, and weigh only 170KG! And they are 200MM longer than expected. But hell, whats 400 Pounds and 8 inches between friends
4. Shipping: these things are still considered hazardous freight. A big pain in the rear end. All good now though. 

So, new boxes, new cables needed. The end result was a 300AH battery with BMS and charger( nice 160V 30A unit) for under 25,000USD including GST. 

I will be going over to China in the near future to see if we can sort out the issue with the cabling, maybe source some better connectors and get the guys trained up. The components all look good. 

Ill test my pack, and if the cells are all good I will be importing some more, I can get them for 1.3USD/Ah + Shipping and GST on arrival. I am looking to get a distribution agreement with these guys if and when I am satisfied that the quality is good, and sell them through my solar business , Shinbone Energy Products. 

If I can help anyone out, or anyone wants a look, feel free to get in touch. 

Cheers, 

Brett

PS I need a controller!!! I ordered a Zilla, but Im sure you all know what happened there. So, now I have a pack that can make 1575A and no controller of any sort. Rather frustrating.


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