# Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*



> Peter Shabino wrote:
> 
> > As for PN F10AL250 I could not find any crosses in my
> > reference books. (may be a knock off brand) 10A @ 250V is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > Peter Shabino wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*



> John in Ma wrote:
> 
> > The one that came with the converter does not appear to be
> > ceramic- bodied. At least it doesn't look like the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

What input voltage are you running. Seems to be a "trend" of these going bad at higher pack voltages. 
1.) Disconnect the output and see if the fuse still blows.
2.) If you have any sort of warranty still on the unit go down that path. 
3.) If no warranty pop the top off and look for charred Fets. (note caps could still have a charge on them so treat with care.)

If it's the fet's there is a good chance that replacing them will solve the issue (past experience is 9/10 the damage is limited to the fet's).
Let me know what you find. 

Later,
Peter



> From: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:03:41 -0400
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question
> 
> 
>


> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >
> > > Peter Shabino wrote:
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

Roger Stockton wrote a good summary of the situation.

I'll add that there are usually some very large filter capacitors on the 
input, so you get a very high peak current surge when you first connect 
it. This surge could easily be much higher with a DC input than with the 
AC input the supply was designed for, because batteries have a much 
lower internal resistance than the AC line impedance. This could be 
what's blowing the fuse.

It would be easy to add an additional or bigger inrush limiter in series 
with the DC input. Or, put a resistor in series with the input, and a 
relay that shorts out this resistor a second or so later, like this:

24 ohm, 10 watt
resistor ____________
B+______/\/\_________|+in1 +12vout|___
| | | |
|____/____| | DC/DC |
_| | converter |
relay |_ | or |
SPST contact |_ | AC power |
pack voltage |_ | supply |
coil | | |
B-_____________|_____|-in2 ground|___
|____________|

When you first power it up, the relay is off. The DC/DC is powered 
through the 24 ohm resistor, which limits the peak input current to 
about 5 amps with a 120vdc pack (R = 120v/5a = 24 ohms). When the DC/DC 
input capacitors have charged, there is enough voltage to pull in the 
relay (a relay pulls in at about half its rated coil voltage). The 
relay's contact closes, shorting out the resistor, and the DC/DC gets 
full input voltage.

It's hard to find relays with a high DC coil voltage. You can add a 
resistor in series with the relay coil to use a lower coil voltage and 
adjust the point where it closes. For example, you could use a 110vdc 
relay with a 156vdc pack with a resistor that drops the 46v difference.

Or you can use a simple precharge circuit; a smaller version of what you 
use with a controller. It's smaller, cheaper, has a predictable delay, 
and you can get all the parts at Radio Shack. Something like this (view 
with a fixed width font):
____________
B+___________________________|+in1 +12vout|___
| | |
< 1 megohm | |
< resistor | DC/DC |
< | converter |
|______ neon | or |
| _|_ lamp | AC power |
1uF _|_ / - \ | supply |
capacitor___ \_-_/ | |
| | SCR | |
B-________|_______\|/|_______|-in2 ground|___
| |\| | |____________|
| |
|___/\/\___|
24 ohm, 10 watt resistor

The SCR should be rated at about double the pack voltage and double the 
DC/DC's input fuse rating. For example, a 400 volt, 10 amp part. It may 
need to be on a small heatsink.

When you first power the circuit, the SCR is off. The DC/DC is powered 
through the 24 ohm power resistor. This limits the peak input current to 
about 5 amps with a 120vdc pack (R = 120v/5a = 24 ohms).

The 1uF capacitor charges through the 100k resistor. In about 1 second 
(T = R x C = 1,000000ohms x 0.000001farads = 1 second), the capacitor 
charges up to about 80 volts. The neon lamp lights, and dumps the 
capacitor's charge into the gate of the SCR. This turns on the SCR, 
which shorts the 24 ohm resistor, and the DC/DC now has full power.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

Thanks Peter, Roger, Lee and Trot,

I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am fuses with 
250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and nothing looks 
burnt, but I'm no expert.

I can't imagine I have any warrenty left if there ever was one. I've 
had the device (mostly sitting on a shelf) since 2005.

In Jan 2008 I connected the unit up for testing and had it working 
but posted a question why it might be squealing (EVDL thread #1 for 
this thing). The squealing stopped so I found a more permanent 
location to install the device.

As I was installing in the new location I managed to shear the bolt 
of the HV positive input leading to evdl subject #2 for this thing 
on Jan 19, 08.
After a diy solder job I had it working again, but took it to a 
local gutair and amp repair shop for a permanent fix. (I'm 99% sure I 
tested it when I got it back from the repair shop and it was working)

This brings me to my current situation, I had it installed again and 
noticed the blow fuse on a test drive. Not sure if it blew on power 
up or not. (That will teach me to think optimistically and actually 
put the damn vehicle on my insurance policy)

While I appreciate the suggestions Lee provided, I don't understand 
them, so it doens't seem right to try and implement something I don't 
understand. (Which brings up the question of why I tried converting 
an EV in the first place, but I digress)

Any thoughts on how to get such a device fixed proper other than 
sending it back to England? The guy I had do the soldering didn't 
seem familiar with the device in general but it was just a desolder/ 
solder job.

Thanks,

John in Ma (wondering if a trip to the RMV will ever be in my future)

P.S. I heard back from the manufacturer. They speck the fuse that I 
took out marked.
F10AL205V

CC Power confirmed this translates as:
The F stands for fast acting
10A is for 10 Amps
L is for low breaking capacity (glass package)
250V is the rated voltage.

No mention of ac or dc. On a follow up they recommended a Bussmann 
fuse.





> Peter Shabino wrote:
> 
> > What input voltage are you running. Seems to be a "trend" of these
> > going bad at higher pack voltages.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

Your output DC ampere is going to determine what size fuse you need on the 
for the input ampere.

Lets say the DC ampere is 40 amps at 14.5 vdc which is 580 watts.

If the input voltage is 120 v, then 580W/120V=4.8 amps

If the load surges during startup, a standard fuse for 125% over the actual 
input ampere or 4.8A x 1.25 = 6 amps may not hold.

Either a standard fuse of 200% x 4.8 = 9.6 amp rating or use a duel element 
fuse at 6 or 8 amps which is design for starting up surges.

Normally a DC-DC converter like a IOTA is fuse on the DC-DC output side for 
66 percent of the rating of the converter. A 45 amp converter is fuse for 30 
amps on the DC load side. The input side which can be AC or DC, is circuit 
breaker for either 15 or 20 amp.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John in Ma" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question


> Thanks Peter, Roger, Lee and Trot,
>
> I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am fuses with
> 250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and nothing looks
> burnt, but I'm no expert.
>
> I can't imagine I have any warrenty left if there ever was one. I've
> had the device (mostly sitting on a shelf) since 2005.
>
> In Jan 2008 I connected the unit up for testing and had it working
> but posted a question why it might be squealing (EVDL thread #1 for
> this thing). The squealing stopped so I found a more permanent
> location to install the device.
>
> As I was installing in the new location I managed to shear the bolt
> of the HV positive input leading to evdl subject #2 for this thing
> on Jan 19, 08.
> After a diy solder job I had it working again, but took it to a
> local gutair and amp repair shop for a permanent fix. (I'm 99% sure I
> tested it when I got it back from the repair shop and it was working)
>
> This brings me to my current situation, I had it installed again and
> noticed the blow fuse on a test drive. Not sure if it blew on power
> up or not. (That will teach me to think optimistically and actually
> put the damn vehicle on my insurance policy)
>
> While I appreciate the suggestions Lee provided, I don't understand
> them, so it doens't seem right to try and implement something I don't
> understand. (Which brings up the question of why I tried converting
> an EV in the first place, but I digress)
>
> Any thoughts on how to get such a device fixed proper other than
> sending it back to England? The guy I had do the soldering didn't
> seem familiar with the device in general but it was just a desolder/
> solder job.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John in Ma (wondering if a trip to the RMV will ever be in my future)
>
> P.S. I heard back from the manufacturer. They speck the fuse that I
> took out marked.
> F10AL205V
>
> CC Power confirmed this translates as:
> The F stands for fast acting
> 10A is for 10 Amps
> L is for low breaking capacity (glass package)
> 250V is the rated voltage.
>
> No mention of ac or dc. On a follow up they recommended a Bussmann
> fuse.
>
>
>
>


> Peter Shabino wrote:
> >
> > > What input voltage are you running. Seems to be a "trend" of these
> > > going bad at higher pack voltages.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*



> John in Ma wrote:
> 
> > I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am
> > fuses with 250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

To rule out inrush current take a 100W or larger (bigger is better but stay=
under 500W) household light bulb (incandescent not a CFL) and mount it in =
a socket inline with the + wire to the converter. So the connection will go=
+ from traction pack to one terminal of the light bulb. Other terminal of =
the light bulb to the + on the converter. =

=

Put a good fuse in the converter and leave the output disconnected. Attach =
a volt meter to the output of the converter and power it up. If it was just=
inrush current blowing the fuse you should now see ~13V at the output of t=
he converter. If you see 0V then more than likely the converter is dead. =

=

Large caps when discharged look like a DC short for a short period of time =
until they start to charge up. This initial period of high current is refer=
red to "inrush current". The light bulb limits the max current so if that w=
as the cause of the blown fuses it should get you past the initial rush and=
allow the regulator to operate at low / very low output loads) =

=

If you want I can take a look at it. Would have to ship it over to MN. No g=
uarantees on the reparability but the fact that it's not all charred on the=
inside would indicate chances are good. =

=

Later,
Peter
=

=




> From: [email protected]> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:47:18 -0400> To: e=
[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question> > Thanks Peter, Ro=
ger, Lee and Trot,> > I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing=
6am fuses with > 250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and nothing =
looks > burnt, but I'm no expert.> > I can't imagine I have any warrenty le=
ft if there ever was one. I've > had the device (mostly sitting on a shelf)=
since 2005.> > In Jan 2008 I connected the unit up for testing and had it =
working > but posted a question why it might be squealing (EVDL thread #1 f=
or > this thing). The squealing stopped so I found a more permanent > locat=
ion to install the device.> > As I was installing in the new location I man=
aged to shear the bolt > of the HV positive input leading to evdl subject #=
2 for this thing > on Jan 19, 08.> After a diy solder job I had it working =
again, but took it to a > local gutair and amp repair shop for a permanent =
fix. (I'm 99% sure I > tested it when I got it back from the repair shop an=
d it was working)> > This brings me to my current situation, I had it insta=
lled again and > noticed the blow fuse on a test drive. Not sure if it blew=
on power > up or not. (That will teach me to think optimistically and actu=
ally > put the damn vehicle on my insurance policy)> > While I appreciate t=
he suggestions Lee provided, I don't understand > them, so it doens't seem =
right to try and implement something I don't > understand. (Which brings up=
the question of why I tried converting > an EV in the first place, but I d=
igress)> > Any thoughts on how to get such a device fixed proper other than=
> sending it back to England? The guy I had do the soldering didn't > seem=
familiar with the device in general but it was just a desolder/ > solder j=
ob.> > Thanks,> > John in Ma (wondering if a trip to the RMV will ever be i=
n my future)> > P.S. I heard back from the manufacturer. They speck the fus=
e that I > took out marked.> F10AL205V> > CC Power confirmed this translate=
s as:> The F stands for fast acting> 10A is for 10 Amps> L is for low break=
ing capacity (glass package)> 250V is the rated voltage.> > No mention of a=
c or dc. On a follow up they recommended a Bussmann > fuse.> > > > On Apr 2=


> 3, 2008, at 12:00 PM, Peter Shabino wrote:> > > What input voltage are you =
> running. Seems to be a "trend" of these > > going bad at higher pack voltag=
> es.> > 1.) Disconnect the output and see if the fuse still blows.> > 2.) If=
> you have any sort of warranty still on the unit go down that > > path.> > =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

Shoot I need to type faster next time 



> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:32:24 -0700> Subject: Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question> > John in Ma wrote:> > > I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am> > fuses with 250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and> > nothing looks burnt, but I'm no expert.> > > While I appreciate the suggestions Lee provided, I don't> > understand them, so it doens't seem right to try and> > implement something I don't understand.> > Ok; the easy thing is to wire an ordinary 100W 120V bulb in series with the input of the DC/DC. This will limit the input current to about 1A if your DC supply voltage is about 120V.> > With no load on the output, what you would expect to see is the bulb to light brightly initially and then go dark as the input caps charge. If the DC/DC is blowing the input fuse due to something blown (shorted) internally, then the bulb will remain lit brightly as long as you leave power applied.> > You'll still nee!
d to find someone to repair it for you if it is dead, but this may help you to determine if the fuses may be blowing because of inrush current (i.e. you might need to try a slow rather than fast blow fuse).> > Good luck,> > Roger.> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*



> John in Ma wrote:
> > I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am fuses with
> > 250v ratings on power up. I took the top off and nothing looks
> > burnt, but I'm no expert.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

hmmmm.

The light stays on, which based on list experts input suggests the 
converter is dead.

I may have to take peter up on his offer to have a look at it.

This project is turning into my very own money pit.

John




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > John in Ma wrote:
> >> I have disconnected the output and I am still blowing 6am fuses with
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question*

The best projects always do  By the way what is your pack voltage?
=

If you want me to take a look just send me a email off list ([email protected]=
com) and I can send you my address here. =

=

Later,
Peter



> From: [email protected]> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:18:46 -0400> To: e=
[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] {P} Fuse question> > hmmmm.> > The li=
ght stays on, which based on list experts input suggests the > converter is=
dead.> > I may have to take peter up on his offer to have a look at it.> >=
This project is turning into my very own money pit.> > John> > > On Apr 25=


> , 2008, at 9:57 AM, Lee Hart wrote:> > > John in Ma wrote:> >> I have disco=
> nnected the output and I am still blowing 6am fuses with> >> 250v ratings o=
> n power up. I took the top off and nothing looks> >> burnt, but I'm no expe=
> rt.> >> > Connect an ordinary 60 watt light bulb in place of the fuse. For>=
> ...


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