# Is it even possible for me?



## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

You could turn this http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/max-a-homemade-biodiesel-fueled-lotus-seven-replica/ into a hybrid and still be ecologically correct. It might not pass everyone's sniff test but it would be about the lowest cost transportation other than a bicycle. The urban portion of your drive could be electric where the ICE is most polluting and the ICE used for highway driving.


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm really not worried about the ecological end. I'm worried about the financial end. Gas prices aint goin anywhere but up, so the less I use of it, the more money I got.

In regards to hybrid technology, I'd rather one drivetrain. How much extra cost/mechanics would be to add some kind of generator to an EV? Enough to add just a few extra miles. I've done a little reading on plug-in hybrids, but don't know too much about them in terms of efficiency. 

My car right now gets 10mpg, so a trip to town usually runs about $20 with gas prices where they're at. Electricity, however, is dirt cheap, and if I get the finances, I can make it even cheaper.

Every which way I swing it, an EV capable of highway speeds I seem to be bottoming out at about 40miles for range. It's gotta be able to be fast enough for highway, but it's also got to be safe.


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

Side note: It gets really bloody cold here in the winter, so an open vehicle really isn't an option.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

If you're mainly driving highway on your round trip I'd say a small, modern diesel vehicle would be the best choice for you. Biggest problem is that diesel engines don't produce much waste heat (compared to gas cars) so if you often see temperatures below freezing point you might want to add an electrical heater to the passenger compartment that you run an hour or so before you start.

It's probably hard to argue for an electric car that has the range of 60 miles at highway speed if you want it to be "reasonably priced" (which I guess means that you want it to pay for itself within a few years, yes?), especially if you live in the states where fuel is still comparatively cheap (if you think your $/gal is high you should come over here and pay for filling my Jeep up  ) and hybrids won't really be a good option as well since your driving habits are "wrong" to really benefit from the hybrid system.

So, small or medium size diesel...


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

Qer said:


> If you're mainly driving highway on your round trip I'd say a small, modern diesel vehicle would be the best choice for you. Biggest problem is that diesel engines don't produce much waste heat (compared to gas cars) so if you often see temperatures below freezing point you might want to add an electrical heater to the passenger compartment that you run an hour or so before you start.
> 
> It's probably hard to argue for an electric car that has the range of 60 miles at highway speed if you want it to be "reasonably priced" (which I guess means that you want it to pay for itself within a few years, yes?), especially if you live in the states where fuel is still comparatively cheap (if you think your $/gal is high you should come over here and pay for filling my Jeep up  ) and hybrids won't really be a good option as well since your driving habits are "wrong" to really benefit from the hybrid system.
> 
> So, small or medium size diesel...


Winters here regularly hit -10f here. 

The hybrids (at least I assume) we're talking about, are series hybrids, not parallel. The drivetrain is all electric, with an onboard generator to charge the batteries as you drive. Something like the Chevy Volt, not the Toyota Prius. As for the diesels, unfortunatley they're priced pretty high in decent condition. Even something with 200,000 miles, you're looking at about $10,000. Figure if I'm gonna spend something like that, I can make my own and get a lot more life out of it.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Bertzie said:


> Even something with 200,000 miles, you're looking at about $10,000. Figure if I'm gonna spend something like that, I can make my own and get a lot more life out of it.


there are oodles of diesels avail that aren't made by drudge dorf or chebby. Vw made a ubiquitous pick up that made 75 mpg way back in the 80's, and they are still around and under $1000. 200K is midlife on a diesel, and 600K would not be uncommon. there are lots of surplussed diesel powered gensets some even trailer mounted. 60 miles one way shouldn't be all that hard, but Aerodynamics is going to be the killer. think british econo box.

good luck.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Bertzie said:


> Winters here regularly hit -10f here.


Like over here then. And diesels are pretty overpriced here too so I tend to buy cars for $5000-8000 and run them about 5 years 'til they're worn out. I can get a LOT of gas for the money I save on not buying an overpriced diesel car.


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> there are oodles of diesels avail that aren't made by drudge dorf or chebby. Vw made a ubiquitous pick up that made 75 mpg way back in the 80's, and they are still around and under $1000. 200K is midlife on a diesel, and 600K would not be uncommon. there are lots of surplussed diesel powered gensets some even trailer mounted. 60 miles one way shouldn't be all that hard, but Aerodynamics is going to be the killer. think british econo box.
> 
> good luck.


One of the few used diesels that isn't a truck in the area.










How much do they want for it? $9,300


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

you're gonna have a hard time building an electric that goes 60 miles round trip on the highway for $10K that can handle -10degrees..... not impossible, but hard.

Find a used diesel or move closer to town....


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

I don't need easy, just possible.


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

Found this battery. A pack of these might work. http://www.atbatt.com/product/24121.asp#tabs Anyone ever use these batteries?


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm assuming you want to go electric but since you've considered diesel vehicles and see that they are expensive you can always go with a gasser that would run your 60 mile commute in a gallon. I get 70mpg on a tank when I'm primarily commuting with summer weather with my 1st Gen Honda Insight.

I'd rather support electric cars, which is what I'm doing but of course lithium packs, motors, controllers, etc add up to be a bunch, the running cost of an electric is cheaper but the conversion cost is expensive and then it gets into the relative stuff. If you convert a dime-a-dozen Geo Metro, Suzuki Swift, 1995+ Toyota Tercel, Honda CRX, or some other small a lightweight aerodynamic car to electric you'll save a bunch in battery cost because those cars were designed to be efficient economy cars. You'll still pay for the initial cost of conversion but I think of it this way, if I can get a car that has a decent body that I like(important factor: Please like the car you convert BEFORE you convert it!) and then convert the car into electric you might still outperform the Leaf and love it even more. Of course it depends on your standards and donor vehicle too. I'm aiming to convert a car and have it outrange a Leaf and outperform the efficiency of a Leaf and end up paying less in total cost of a Leaf and then laugh when I see "Leaves"(is this PC?) rusting out while my car is prime.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Finally: way back in the EV performance subforum there are a couple of calculators that will spit out loads of data regarding your choice of vehicle, motor, and battery system. Play with that for a while, them make the metal fly.

Possible IS ALWAYS possible, it may not be probable.


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

MN Driver said:


> I'm assuming you want to go electric but since you've considered diesel vehicles and see that they are expensive you can always go with a gasser that would run your 60 mile commute in a gallon. I get 70mpg on a tank when I'm primarily commuting with summer weather with my 1st Gen Honda Insight.
> 
> I'd rather support electric cars, which is what I'm doing but of course lithium packs, motors, controllers, etc add up to be a bunch, the running cost of an electric is cheaper but the conversion cost is expensive and then it gets into the relative stuff. If you convert a dime-a-dozen Geo Metro, Suzuki Swift, 1995+ Toyota Tercel, Honda CRX, or some other small a lightweight aerodynamic car to electric you'll save a bunch in battery cost because those cars were designed to be efficient economy cars. You'll still pay for the initial cost of conversion but I think of it this way, if I can get a car that has a decent body that I like(important factor: Please like the car you convert BEFORE you convert it!) and then convert the car into electric you might still outperform the Leaf and love it even more. Of course it depends on your standards and donor vehicle too. I'm aiming to convert a car and have it outrange a Leaf and outperform the efficiency of a Leaf and end up paying less in total cost of a Leaf and then laugh when I see "Leaves"(is this PC?) rusting out while my car is prime.


Looking at some cars, I noticed first generation Ford Mustang base model comes in at 2445 curb weight. I'm liking where this is going.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Bertzie said:


> My car right now gets 10mpg, so a trip to town usually runs about $20 with gas prices where they're at. Electricity, however, is dirt cheap, and if I get the finances, I can make it even cheaper.
> 
> Every which way I swing it, an EV capable of highway speeds I seem to be bottoming out at about 40miles for range. It's gotta be able to be fast enough for highway, but it's also got to be safe.


You gotta go lithium to achieve long-term savings over gas. It IS more expensive to start, but the long life pays off. With lead you're unlikely to get more than 40 miles, and you'll replace a pack every 18 months (7000 miles) if you need full range. With Lithium, you *should* get 100,000 miles out of it if you design a little extra capacity so you aren't discharging too deeply. If you know you will have a lot of trips at 60 miles, I'd recommend at least a 144v system of 160ah batteries, and probably safer going the extra capacity and considering a 120v or 144v system with 200ah batteries if you have a lot of the miles at highway speed.

I just added a page to my site on exactly this topic.... take a look and see if you agree with my analysis:

http://www.envirokarma.org/ev/op_cost.shtml

BTW, I'll make a plug for some batteries 'on special sale' right now if you are in the position to buy them while they are available. There are a bunch of 160ah and 200ah cells we (some Plaintiffs in a case against a former Vendor) got in Settlement. The batteries are new, but have been sitting on the shelf, which shouldn't hurth them at all... special price of $1.10/ah at currentevtech.com


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> You gotta go lithium to achieve long-term savings over gas. It IS more expensive to start, but the long life pays off. With lead you're unlikely to get more than 40 miles, and you'll replace a pack every 18 months (7000 miles) if you need full range. With Lithium, you *should* get 100,000 miles out of it if you design a little extra capacity so you aren't discharging too deeply. If you know you will have a lot of trips at 60 miles, I'd recommend at least a 144v system of 160ah batteries, and probably safer going the extra capacity and considering a 120v or 144v system with 200ah batteries if you have a lot of the miles at highway speed.
> 
> I just added a page to my site on exactly this topic.... take a look and see if you agree with my analysis:
> 
> ...


95% of my trips are 60 miles or more, with almost all of it at highway speed. I've heard that lithium batteries have trouble operating in the cold, is that true?

I'm not in the position to buy at the moment, probably within the next 3 years or so. I'm just researching the hell out of everything, so when I finally do build, I'll know what I'm doing.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Bertzie said:


> 95% of my trips are 60 miles or more, with almost all of it at highway speed. I've heard that lithium batteries have trouble operating in the cold, is that true?


Lithium 'prefers' to be above freezing when charging or in use... easily solved with heating pads or wires in insulated boxes. They also don't like to be above about 120 deg F.

If you go Lithium and expect to go 60+ miles you should design for 100; and strongly consider bio-diesel conversion instead....


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## Bertzie (Oct 13, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> Lithium 'prefers' to be above freezing when charging or in use... easily solved with heating pads or wires in insulated boxes. They also don't like to be above about 120 deg F.
> 
> If you go Lithium and expect to go 60+ miles you should design for 100; and strongly consider bio-diesel conversion instead....


The availability of biosiesel is basically non-existent in this area. A big trucking company buys up all the waste oil. (Though I know diesel doesn't work so well in the cold either, at least according to the farmers.)

Any battery I use, has to work good in the cold, because for 4-5 months out of the year, it's below freezing, and usually reaches -20 to -30 few times a month.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Bertzie said:


> Any battery I use, has to work good in the cold, because for 4-5 months out of the year, it's below freezing, and usually reaches -20 to -30 few times a month.



a moderately insulated enclosed box, and 'farnum heating pads' or heatline will keep the batteries toasty enough. not really a problem with proper design and doesn't take that much juice if the boxes are reasonably sealed.


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