# Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I'm considering that for mine.... not set on it yet, but considering
it.... The main drawback I can see is that you can't shift many of the
older transfer cases from low to hi when in motion.

Z



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist" transmission
> > for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Sure, but I planned to stop at the quick mart near the Interstate on ramp 
and get some water and eyeball the tires to be sure I don,t have a flat or 
almost, then put it in high range and lope away... Don't forget they have a 
neutral too so you might want a neutral switch added to prevent over revving 
accidentally by blocking acceleration. I think it is a reasonable priced tranny if 
your donor had an Automatic. Incidentally, I hate Automatic Trans. charge 
me $2500 extra and consume 15 to 20 % of my energy. Did you know that Jay Leno 
in his auto collection only acquires stick shifts, NO AUTOMATICS!


In a message dated 11/24/2008 11:00:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

I'm considering that for mine.... not set on it yet, but considering
it.... The main drawback I can see is that you can't shift many of the
older transfer cases from low to hi when in motion.

Z



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist" transmission
> > for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Unfortunatly a transfer case cannot be shifted at speed, so you would 
have to be in neighborhood mode or highway mode when you start. I 
don't think that helps much. I think a gear vendors unit would be 
better. What we need is a two speed planetary unit that can be shifted 
without a clutch.

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist"
> > transmission for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Learn how to shift without clutch. Once upon a time transmissions did no=
t have synchromesh and were all straight cut gears.



----- Original Message ----
From: Kelly Hales <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:21:05 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Unfortunatly a transfer case cannot be shifted at speed, so you would =

have to be in neighborhood mode or highway mode when you start. I =

don't think that helps much. I think a gear vendors unit would be =

better. What we need is a two speed planetary unit that can be shifted =

without a clutch.

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist" =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

What about the High / low axel from a truck? I wonder if there's one 
small enough and in an independent container (you don't want to put a 
truck axel and differential on your EV Miata) But they can be shifted 
while moving (not under load) they don't require a clutch and the few 
I've used were all electric controlled. Being electrically controlled 
you might be able to make a switch for it that would not allow it to 
be switched while the motor was under load.

It might be hard to find one that would fit or be light enough - since 
they come from bigger trucks they might be heaver that the 
transmission you're trying to replace. Still might be worth a look - 
ask yourself what would they do on Monster Garage?

Good Luck,
Frank




> Kelly Hales wrote:
> 
> > Unfortunatly a transfer case cannot be shifted at speed, so you would
> > have to be in neighborhood mode or highway mode when you start. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Kelly Hales wrote:
> > What we need is a two speed planetary unit that can be shifted
> > without a clutch.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Tell that to a guy who now has a stick with P-R-N-D-2-1 and he'll walk away.
Tell it to anybody who does not have an "ear" for motor RPM and they will w=
alk.
In other words: few people will accept a solution that requires a special s=
kill.
You make your market smaller instead of larger this way.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Dan Bentler
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Learn how to shift without clutch. Once upon a time transmissions did no=
t have synchromesh and were all straight cut gears.



----- Original Message ----
From: Kelly Hales <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 10:21:05 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Unfortunatly a transfer case cannot be shifted at speed, so you would have =
to be in neighborhood mode or highway mode when you start. I don't think th=
at helps much. I think a gear vendors unit would be better. What we need is=
a two speed planetary unit that can be shifted without a clutch.

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist" =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Lee Hart has a very informative page on his Solectra site. He doesn't use a transmission, but instead a Ford 5.5 differential.

I'm really interested in that, as the concept of hooking up an electric motor to a manual transmission to hardlly use anything but the 2nd and 3rd or 2nd and 4th gears seems like wasted energy and weight!

Matt
Independence, MO


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Wow:

I've been lurking this list for a few months, planning my own (first) EV 
and studying lots of things, and finally I have something to contribute!

I will be using an AC motor directly driving the rear axle. My current 
design is a narrowed Jaguar IRS. I researched axle ratios for this, and 
while it is possible to fit a 9" Ford or even Halibrand quick-change 
Champ car center section, yielding easily swapped ratios up to 7.25:1, I 
think its more practical and MUCH cheaper to use the stock Dana 44 and 
the available 4.50:1 or 5.11:1 gears with an overdrive.

The Gear Vendors OD is the best known, and it can be electronically 
(e.g. automatically) controlled, shifted under load, fully loaded in 
either direction, will handle huge torque, is quite adaptable, not too 
heavy, and at first blush seems perfect. The problem with the GV unit is 
that it only overdrives 1:0.78. That gives you two ratios relatively 
close together, 1:1 and 1:.78, which is fine for gear splitting an ICE 
but less of a drop than I would want as a 2-speed transmission for an EV 
with an 8000+ rpm range. Then I found this way-cool overdrive:

http://www.northwestfab.com/blackbox.html

Its actually a low-range gear reduction box, (at 2.72:1) with a 1:1 high 
range you can shift it to. That seems like a nearly perfect spread of 
ratios for a two-speed EV with a low (but commonly available) final 
drive ratio, but alas I haven't done any math yet. The unit itself also 
seems very adaptable to the EV application, and its 45lbs. The company 
that makes it is big into transfer cases, and they even combine them to 
make dual-ratio units. If you want a primer on the whole subject, see 
their website. I'm really excited about this unit, and I'm hoping it is 
a for-real and durable thing. Sure leeks like it.

Anyway, glad to actually be able to contribute to this discussion.

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer...
White Plains, NY




<--snip-->

From: Frank Flynn <[email protected]>

What about the High / low axel from a truck? I wonder if there's one
small enough and in an independent container (you don't want to put a
truck axel and differential on your EV Miata) But they can be shifted
while moving (not under load) they don't require a clutch and the few
I've used were all electric controlled. Being electrically controlled
you might be able to make a switch for it that would not allow it to
be switched while the motor was under load.

It might be hard to find one that would fit or be light enough - since
they come from bigger trucks they might be heaver that the
transmission you're trying to replace. Still might be worth a look -
ask yourself what would they do on Monster Garage?

Good Luck,
Frank

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Those are low range units out of a transfer case and again not able to 
shift while moving. Good ratios tho. They use them to double up low 
ranges while rock crawling. Was going to do one in my Cherokee. Kinda 
not into the wheeling any more.

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone



> Tom Alvary <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wow:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I thought that planetary gear sets could shift while moving?

The price is certainly more reasonable than the new gearvendors units I had
looked at.

Z



> Kelly Hales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Those are low range units out of a transfer case and again not able to
> > shift while moving. Good ratios tho. They use them to double up low
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I had this same idea before I joined this list. One trouble with transfer 
cases is the lack of synchronizers forcing you to basically come to a 
complete stop before you can change gears.
If you are interested I can swing you an excel file where I started making 
notes of which transmissions are 4x4, awd, gear or chain, aluminum or iron, 
planetary gear, or viscous fluid differential etc. It's on my laptop right 
and I can't remember the model exactly but it seemed one of the best was a 
GM transfer case from a Bravada. It had the same bolt pattern and spline 
input as the transwarp motors, aluminum, AWD, and a viscous fluid diff.

Another idea I had was to turn a Honda FWD transmission sideways. Picture 
the normally left and right axles going to a front and rear differential. 
They are cheep, and you can get lots of speed parts. I didn't think a stock 
one would hold up to a Warp9 but you could have it built to handle it for 
around $600. The Honda deal would give you a planetary gear center diff 
(assuming you get and "open differential one"). My theory and logic tells me 
that the planetary diff would be stronger, have less trouble and more 
efficient than the viscous fluid style.

I've since been talked into using two separate motors for front and rear 
direct drive.

Chris




> [email protected] wrote:
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist"
> > transmission for
> > a versatile EV was broached here. The Idea presented was: Because
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I appreciate the idea of keeping the battery locations low. I would think
that there is plenty of room for batteries in the existing gas tank and ICE
locations, in addition to the space adjacent to the frame rails usually
taken up by empty space and exhaust pipe routing.

An 8" body lift on a truck of any kind is just wrong. 

Any *body* lift more than 3" is illegal in many states.

Brett



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Matt Searcy wrote:
> > Lee Hart has a very informative page on his Solectra site. He doesn't
> > use a transmission, but instead a Ford 5.5 differential.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Some, actually most, planetary sets shift by having a band stop the
planetary from spinning, I think in the transmission I had it was a shift
from first to second. I always thought that if I became interested in that
approach it would be pretty easy to create a housing for it and then create
an electric screw jack to close the band against the drum. Long time ago
though, memory getting iffy. 

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

I thought that planetary gear sets could shift while moving?

The price is certainly more reasonable than the new gearvendors units I had
looked at.

Z



> Kelly Hales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Those are low range units out of a transfer case and again not able to
> > shift while moving. Good ratios tho. They use them to double up low
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Actually Jay has a few of automatics in his collection, among them an 1100
hp, twin turbo charged, rear wheel drive Olds Tornado.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Sure, but I planned to stop at the quick mart near the Interstate on ramp 
and get some water and eyeball the tires to be sure I don,t have a flat or 
almost, then put it in high range and lope away... Don't forget they have a

neutral too so you might want a neutral switch added to prevent over revving

accidentally by blocking acceleration. I think it is a reasonable priced
tranny if 
your donor had an Automatic. Incidentally, I hate Automatic Trans. charge 
me $2500 extra and consume 15 to 20 % of my energy. Did you know that Jay
Leno 
in his auto collection only acquires stick shifts, NO AUTOMATICS!


In a message dated 11/24/2008 11:00:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

I'm considering that for mine.... not set on it yet, but considering
it.... The main drawback I can see is that you can't shift many of the
older transfer cases from low to hi when in motion.

Z



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > While brainstorming the other day, the idea of "Minimalist" transmission
> > for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I use 2nd,3rd and REVERSE! 
Lets not forget reverse

I have used 4th when I get on the freeway, I just don't do that often.

We should point out that the white zombie has a two-speed "electrical" 
transmission. This is more becasue of the fact that it has series 
motors. The type of motor and load dictates weather you want a 
multispeed gearbox.

4000lb lead sled with non reversable motor that is limited to 4000rpm 
and has not torque at that point, gearbox reguired.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

>I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
>gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear end,
>the car would be going 51 mph at 2000 rpm and 136 mph at 8000 rpm. If I
>can find a way to bump that to 7:1 I get a more usable spread of 29 to
>80 mph. That's certainly where much of my driving occurs.

> > AC motors can be even better. AC Propulsion's AC-150 combined
motor and
> > inverter efficiency has a peak efficiency of 91%, and stays over 85%
> > efficient from 2000-11000 rpm and 5-90 ftlbs torque.

>Even better. 34 mph to 187 mph at 4.1:1. <g> So with AC, getting to 
>10:1 gives me 15 to 85 mph in that nice efficiency range. Perfect. 
That >Black Box 2.27:1 underdrive that Tom Alvary found would be perfect 
IF >it can run 'backwards' at 11,000 rpm!
>
>--Rick

Actually, Rick, you will be running it in the native orientation, 
because it is a reduction box and not an overdrive. Its also a little 
deeper geared than 2.27:1 The input side is spinning 2.72 times for each 
turn of the output shaft. Another feature- you can get that output shaft 
splined in several configurations. My only worry with this unit would be 
the sustained high pm we want to put into it. Since its a final drive 
piece designed for much lower (ICE transmission output) speeds, it may 
explode, overheat, or just need to be carefully cooled in our 
applications. That's my only big concern, and its nice to see your 
numbers kind of validating my hunch about this unit.

Of course, if you could get an appropriate differential with final drive 
in the 7.5:1 to 9.5:1 range, you wouldn't need the gear reduction box. I 
have searched, but by no means exhaustively, and there doesn't seem to 
be anything out there. Can't any of us find anything usable? I find it 
more than a little interesting that such equipment simply isn't now, and 
has never been commonly available. We do truly live in an ICE world...

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer...
White Plains, NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

The problem with finding a ratio that low (numericly high) is that the 
ring gear needs to be hugh, and the pinion very small, therefore 
sacrificing strength. Dump truck size gears. There are some other 
thoughts. The original hummer has reduction boxes at each wheel with a 
2 to 1 ratio. Maybe one between motor and differential. Don't know how 
easy to find. I do like the transfer case planetaries, if indeed a new 
housing could be made with a shifting system to allow shifting at 
speed. Don't know what that would take and if it is even possible. I 
still like the gear vendors splitter, maybe with enough demand they 
will build a more favorable ratio. Many automatics have gear sets that 
could be ideal too, the gear set isn't the problem, a compact housing 
and shift system that doesn't need a pump or converter is the biggie.

Kelly Hales

Sent from my iPhone



> Tom Alvary <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
> >> gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I've seen gear sets for a ford 8.8 in the 5:1 range. The heavier 9 can go 
all the way to 7:33. A quick change can put you in the low 8:50 ish range.


Stub




> Tom Alvary wrote:
> >> I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
> >> gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear
> >> end, the car would be going 51 mph at 2000 rpm and 136 mph at 8000
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I am working on a transmissionless EV miata, I figure i will either get a
5.0 to 1 rear gear setup (SCCA solo racers use them). as for a
transmission, you folks are missing 2 possiblities that dont require
reinventing something. drag racing has the powerglide transmission that can
be run without a converter. And circle track racers also have lightened
manual transmissions that are just 2 gears. both type units are inexpensive
compared to having something made up. check www.speedwaymotors.com. then
you can just have the rear end set up with the sweet spot for your use.
Being race bred parts will standup to the big torque of even and 11" motor.
-- 
Most Sincerely,
Marc Blum
_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

If you use a quick change rear end you will be able to set up the rearend
ration any where you want. 

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tom Alvary
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

>I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
>gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear end,
>the car would be going 51 mph at 2000 rpm and 136 mph at 8000 rpm. If I
>can find a way to bump that to 7:1 I get a more usable spread of 29 to
>80 mph. That's certainly where much of my driving occurs.

> > AC motors can be even better. AC Propulsion's AC-150 combined
motor and
> > inverter efficiency has a peak efficiency of 91%, and stays over 85%
> > efficient from 2000-11000 rpm and 5-90 ftlbs torque.

>Even better. 34 mph to 187 mph at 4.1:1. <g> So with AC, getting to 
>10:1 gives me 15 to 85 mph in that nice efficiency range. Perfect. 
That >Black Box 2.27:1 underdrive that Tom Alvary found would be perfect 
IF >it can run 'backwards' at 11,000 rpm!
>
>--Rick

Actually, Rick, you will be running it in the native orientation, 
because it is a reduction box and not an overdrive. Its also a little 
deeper geared than 2.27:1 The input side is spinning 2.72 times for each 
turn of the output shaft. Another feature- you can get that output shaft 
splined in several configurations. My only worry with this unit would be 
the sustained high pm we want to put into it. Since its a final drive 
piece designed for much lower (ICE transmission output) speeds, it may 
explode, overheat, or just need to be carefully cooled in our 
applications. That's my only big concern, and its nice to see your 
numbers kind of validating my hunch about this unit.

Of course, if you could get an appropriate differential with final drive 
in the 7.5:1 to 9.5:1 range, you wouldn't need the gear reduction box. I 
have searched, but by no means exhaustively, and there doesn't seem to 
be anything out there. Can't any of us find anything usable? I find it 
more than a little interesting that such equipment simply isn't now, and 
has never been commonly available. We do truly live in an ICE world...

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer...
White Plains, NY

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

If the shifting design is correct then yes, but in a transfer case all the 
shiting is done by splinded shafts. I suppose it could be forced in or if 
the speed is right it could be done, but not easy in my experience. Now if 
you could redesign a auto trans planetary set with bands to shift then you 
may have something.
Kelly


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


>I thought that planetary gear sets could shift while moving?
>
> The price is certainly more reasonable than the new gearvendors units I 
> had
> looked at.
>
> Z
>
>


> Kelly Hales <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Those are low range units out of a transfer case and again not able to
> >> shift while moving. Good ratios tho. They use them to double up low
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Indeed the powerglide is a nice idea too. I have looked into that one. You 
can get one that is set up to have a clutch pedal to control the pump, sort 
of like starting with a ICE and clutch. One company makes a case with a 
removable bellhousing. That could make adapting easier or harder. It still 
needs a pump, so you have to idle the engine or maybe the clutch pedal setup 
would work. IIRC Roland looked into that too, but his El Camino is pretty 
heavy and with the hill he describes, he needs the gears, so he is going to 
a TH400. I would like to see firsthand how that works. I still think the 
best bet is to get gear vendors to build a better (for us) ratio. Likely be 
mucho dinero but a nice unit.
Kelly
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Blum" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


>I am working on a transmissionless EV miata, I figure i will either get a
> 5.0 to 1 rear gear setup (SCCA solo racers use them). as for a
> transmission, you folks are missing 2 possiblities that dont require
> reinventing something. drag racing has the powerglide transmission that 
> can
> be run without a converter. And circle track racers also have lightened
> manual transmissions that are just 2 gears. both type units are 
> inexpensive
> compared to having something made up. check www.speedwaymotors.com. then
> you can just have the rear end set up with the sweet spot for your use.
> Being race bred parts will standup to the big torque of even and 11" 
> motor.
> -- 
> Most Sincerely,
> Marc Blum
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

There are a couple of applications that require gear reduction from 
standard motors.
Both planes and boats that have props need them and tractors. While 
these areas are not cheap, there is always ebay...

the marcotte
http://glasairproject.com/Marcotte/index.html
http://glasairproject.com/GlasairI/psru.html


turboprops have 2 speed reducers with 13,500 rpm on the high speed input 
to the first reduction
http://k7nv.com/notebook/ppinfo/id40.htm

What worries me here is a lot say 600hp out of 800 hp get transfered to 
the prop.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Hello all.

I just joined your goup and it has been educational. Seems I have quite a bit to learn yet. I did buy a donnar car and it may have been the wrong one as I get more into what has to be done to it but my question is this. 

You all have been discussing the pro's and con's of a transmission but even before that I am a little confused about the pro's and con's of the clutch. It seems that some of the conversion kits indicated that the are not needed and some do. What's going on.

Thanks
JoeA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Kelly Hales <[email protected]>
>Sent: Nov 25, 2008 5:49 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.
>
>The problem with finding a ratio that low (numericly high) is that the 
>ring gear needs to be hugh, and the pinion very small, therefore 
>sacrificing strength. Dump truck size gears. There are some other 
>thoughts. The original hummer has reduction boxes at each wheel with a 
>2 to 1 ratio. Maybe one between motor and differential. Don't know how 
>easy to find. I do like the transfer case planetaries, if indeed a new 
>housing could be made with a shifting system to allow shifting at 
>speed. Don't know what that would take and if it is even possible. I 
>still like the gear vendors splitter, maybe with enough demand they 
>will build a more favorable ratio. Many automatics have gear sets that 
>could be ideal too, the gear set isn't the problem, a compact housing 
>and shift system that doesn't need a pump or converter is the biggie.
>
>Kelly Hales
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>


> Tom Alvary <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
> >>> gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Clutch is needed on an ICE car to avoid stalling
the engine when the car is stopped.
The electric motor does not care. 
Only for smooth switching gears would you
still use the clutch, but some members indicate
that when taking care, shifting can be rather
smooth though with a small delay even without
clutch from waiting on the motor to wind down 
or spin up when pushing the shift stick against
the synchro before engaging the gear.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Hello all.

I just joined your goup and it has been educational. Seems I have quite
a bit to learn yet. I did buy a donnar car and it may have been the
wrong one as I get more into what has to be done to it but my question
is this. 

You all have been discussing the pro's and con's of a transmission but
even before that I am a little confused about the pro's and con's of the
clutch. It seems that some of the conversion kits indicated that the are
not needed and some do. What's going on.

Thanks
JoeA

-----Original Message-----
>From: Kelly Hales <[email protected]>
>Sent: Nov 25, 2008 5:49 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.
>
>The problem with finding a ratio that low (numericly high) is that the 
>ring gear needs to be hugh, and the pinion very small, therefore 
>sacrificing strength. Dump truck size gears. There are some other 
>thoughts. The original hummer has reduction boxes at each wheel with a
>2 to 1 ratio. Maybe one between motor and differential. Don't know how 
>easy to find. I do like the transfer case planetaries, if indeed a new 
>housing could be made with a shifting system to allow shifting at 
>speed. Don't know what that would take and if it is even possible. I 
>still like the gear vendors splitter, maybe with enough demand they 
>will build a more favorable ratio. Many automatics have gear sets that 
>could be ideal too, the gear set isn't the problem, a compact housing 
>and shift system that doesn't need a pump or converter is the biggie.
>
>Kelly Hales
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>


> Tom Alvary <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> I've been playing with a spreadsheet to figure ideal direct-drive
> >>> gearing for the EV Miata I'm working on. With the stock 4.1:1 rear
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

No clutch:
Easier to convert
A little lighter
On some cars can be hard or slow to shift
Clutch can't slip

With clutch:
Faster shifting

Provides emergency disconnect
Can idle the motor for power steering or air conditioning



________________________________
From: Joe <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:16:22 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

... I am a little confused about the pro's and con's of the clutch. It seems that some of the conversion kits indicated that the are not needed and some do. What's going on.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Having a clutch presents some advantages.

1. If you're using a shifting gearbox, it makes gear changes easier. The 
mass of a motor armature is a lot easier to deal with than an idling ICE, 
but it still adds to the stress on the synchronizers.

2. It's another disconnect point in case of emergency (full-on failure of 
the controller with a DC motor). This doesn't really apply to AC induction 
motors which are almost guaranteed to stop driving the vehicle upon failure 
(though they could still seize up and bring you to an abrupt stop).

3. The springs in the disc absorb driveline shock to protect the gearbox / 
transaxle.

A clutch slightly increases mass (including rotating mass in the driveline) 
but I don't think it's a big loss in efficiency in most cases.

If you decide to do away with the clutch, make sure you have some elasticity 
in the coupling to absorb driveline shock. 

If you run a DC motor, I would also recommend fitting one or two extra 
(different) redundant shutdown methods.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

David - I've got a couple of comments to add :> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:3=
4:17 -0800> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected]=
sts.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.> > No clut=
ch:> Easier to convertNot necessarily. If you keep the clutch, all you have=
to do is come up with an adapter that makes the motor shaft look like the =
original ICE engine shaft. There's no real design work needed, no coupling=
selection or adapting, etc. You can't get easier than that.> A little lig=
hter> On some cars can be hard or slow to shiftMake that VERY slow on some =
cars. And you will likely shorten the life of your transmission - in parti=
cular the synchronizers. Shifting without a clutch is a learned art that t=
akes skills that most drivers don't have. You can't just tell someone to "=
drive the car".Phil Marino> Clutch can't slip> > With clutch:> Faster shift=
ing> > Provides emergency disconnect> Can idle the motor for power steering=
or air conditioning> > > > ________________________________> From: Joe <ja=
[email protected]>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]=
u>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>> Sent: Wednesday, =
November 26, 2008 11:16:22 AM> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack th=
ereof.> > ... I am a little confused about the pro's and con's of the clutc=
h. It seems that some of the conversion kits indicated that the are not nee=
ded and some do. What's going on.> > >  > ____________________________=
___________________> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/> Usage gui=
delines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv> Archives: http://evdl.org/ar=
chive/> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> =

_________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the =93I=92m a PC=94 Messenger t=
hemepack now.
hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > Having a clutch presents some advantages.
> 
> And another you didn't mention--the unitiated could still drive it. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

It depends on the motor a little bit too. My 9" takes a long time to
shift w/o a clutch (I have one on that car, and normally use it). But
the D&D 6.7" in a VW bug shifts just as fast with or without (it doesn
have one).

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

It also depends on the persons thinking while they are doing the conversion.

One person completed there conversion, and could not back it out of the 
garage, could only go forward using no transmission.

What do you now? Spend another thousand or two for a reversing circuits 
with electrical and mechanical interlocks so you do not reversed the motor 
while you are moving or you will cause dynamic braking which could break 
things.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> It depends on the motor a little bit too. My 9" takes a long time to
> shift w/o a clutch (I have one on that car, and normally use it). But
> the D&D 6.7" in a VW bug shifts just as fast with or without (it doesn
> have one).
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Or you have half a brain and don't put it into reverse while driving 
forward?



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > It also depends on the persons thinking while they are doing the conversion.
> >
> > One person completed there conversion, and could not back it out of the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> On 27 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Jake Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Or you have half a brain and don't put it into reverse while driving
> > forward?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

On an electric drive it really depends how
you implement the motor drive, whether this
is an issue or not.
Point in case: 01-03 Prius has no issue with you
moving the P-R-N-D handle while driving, you can
put it in forward while driving backward and all
it will do is give you a forward torque, so in
practice this will be regen.
Likewise you can move the handle to R while driving
forward, which will give you a reverse torque when
applying the accelerator.
No mechanical interlock necessary if the motor control
does not care about a motor already spinning in any
direction, so it depends on the limitations of your
motor control.

Of course it DOES help (i.e. it is *required*) to have
a clear indication which way you have selected.
At minimum a bright "Reverse" light coming on when you
just toggle a switch! Otherwise you get the surprise
when applying the throttle.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 9:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.



> On 27 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Jake Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Or you have half a brain and don't put it into reverse while driving
> > forward?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

There are ways around human factors like that.
Use a missile switch for the reverse toggle.
$7 and its not complicated/likely to fail.

As a bonus everybody likes missile switches.





> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 27 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Jake Anderson wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I'll bite. What's a missile switch?



> Jake Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > There are ways around human factors like that.
> > Use a missile switch for the reverse toggle.
> > $7 and its not complicated/likely to fail.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> I'll bite. What's a missile switch?
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Jake Anderson <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >> There are ways around human factors like that.
> >> Use a missile switch for the reverse toggle.
> >> $7 and its not complicated/likely to fail.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Pushbutton with a transparent cover?
Like they always show on movies when opening 
the suitcase flying on AirForce 1 ? 
But in reality you can see them in fighter jets.
Cover has to be flipped up before you can depress the button
so this avoids the accidental hit.

It still does not solve the issue of purposefully
depressing the button but accidentally making the
contact twice so you will take off in the wrong 
direction unless you have an *obvious* indicator
showing what the actual setting is and you are
warned before hitting the throttle...

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected]xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of storm connors
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 9:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

I'll bite. What's a missile switch?

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Jake Anderson <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> > There are ways around human factors like that.
> > Use a missile switch for the reverse toggle.
> > $7 and its not complicated/likely to fail.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Pushbutton with a transparent cover?
> > Like they always show on movies when opening
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 27 Nov 2008 at 11:05, Jake Anderson wrote:
> >
> >> Or you have half a brain and don't put it into reverse while driving
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Forgetting the practicality of the vehicle itself...I just wanted to float 
this idea for those with 4x4 vehicles as potential donors:

If you were to remove the ICE (obviously), transmission (typically an 
automatic), and transfer case...would it make sense to:

1) regear the front differential to a "nice" highway gearing
2) regear the rear differential to a much more agressive gearing that will 
not likely allow for highway speeds
3) directly mount two motors, one to each differential
4) then through either clever programming or a manual switch choose which 
motor/axle is engaged giving the effect of a two speed transmission. ???

This would seem to allow for less powerful motors since you can match them 
to the axle and type of driving and not to be able to meet the needs of city 
and highway use.

Does this make any sense, even if it might cost a bit more? I keep looking 
at vehicles that I would like to convert and I keep wanting to do either a 
large pickup, or a medium to large SUV since it must seat 4 plus all the 
associated "stuff" that accompanies 2 young children.

If this idea would make *ANY* sense...would it even be practical to be able 
to use BOTH motors in the even that a 4wd situation would occur?

--Randall
Concord, NC 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > What's wrong with changing between forward and reverse on the fly?
> 
> It depends on the type of motor and controller you have. First, let's
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

The problem with this setup is the possibility of over speeding the rear 
motor. The rpm limits should not be exceeded even with no power to motor. 

It seems to me after reading this entire thread; Best setup and operation 
is for either 2wd or 4wd use differentials, drive shafts, transfer case if 
equipped, manual transmission of 4 or 5 speeds forward and reverse, and include 
the clutch too in some driving situations you can rest your left foot, but 
if you need it the clutch is available! And you can use a slightly smaller 
motor with the choice of gear ratios to assist the torque available for hills 
etc.


In a message dated 11/27/2008 5:51:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

Forgetting the practicality of the vehicle itself...I just wanted to float 
this idea for those with 4x4 vehicles as potential donors:

If you were to remove the ICE (obviously), transmission (typically an 
automatic), and transfer case...would it make sense to:

1) regear the front differential to a "nice" highway gearing
2) regear the rear differential to a much more agressive gearing that will 
not likely allow for highway speeds
3) directly mount two motors, one to each differential
4) then through either clever programming or a manual switch choose which 
motor/axle is engaged giving the effect of a two speed transmission. ???

This would seem to allow for less powerful motors since you can match them 
to the axle and type of driving and not to be able to meet the needs of city 
and highway use.

Does this make any sense, even if it might cost a bit more? I keep looking 
at vehicles that I would like to convert and I keep wanting to do either a 
large pickup, or a medium to large SUV since it must seat 4 plus all the  
associated "stuff" that accompanies 2 young children.

If this idea  would make *ANY* sense...would it even be practical to be able 
to use BOTH motors in the even that a 4wd situation would occur?

--Randall
Concord, NC 

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**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW 
AOL.com. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Good point! I hadn't thought about that, but it would seem that overspeed 
at highway speeds shouldn't be a problem if you are talking 7:1 gearing with 
tall tires (600+/- revs per mile) on a motor that is rated for 6000+ rpms 
until you hit 85+ mph...

Another question...is there any appreciable "drag" from a motor that has no 
power being applied to it?

--Randall
Concord, NC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> The problem with this setup is the possibility of over speeding the rear
> motor. The rpm limits should not be exceeded even with no power to motor.
>
> It seems to me after reading this entire thread; Best setup and 
> operation
> is for either 2wd or 4wd use differentials, drive shafts, transfer case 
> if
> equipped, manual transmission of 4 or 5 speeds forward and reverse, and 
> include
> the clutch too in some driving situations you can rest your left foot, 
> but
> if you need it the clutch is available! And you can use a slightly smaller
> motor with the choice of gear ratios to assist the torque available for 
> hills
> etc.
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/2008 5:51:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> Forgetting the practicality of the vehicle itself...I just wanted to 
> float
> this idea for those with 4x4 vehicles as potential donors:
>
> If you were to remove the ICE (obviously), transmission (typically an
> automatic), and transfer case...would it make sense to:
>
> 1) regear the front differential to a "nice" highway gearing
> 2) regear the rear differential to a much more agressive gearing that 
> will
> not likely allow for highway speeds
> 3) directly mount two motors, one to each differential
> 4) then through either clever programming or a manual switch choose which
> motor/axle is engaged giving the effect of a two speed transmission. ???
>
> This would seem to allow for less powerful motors since you can match 
> them
> to the axle and type of driving and not to be able to meet the needs of 
> city
> and highway use.
>
> Does this make any sense, even if it might cost a bit more? I keep 
> looking
> at vehicles that I would like to convert and I keep wanting to do either 
> a
> large pickup, or a medium to large SUV since it must seat 4 plus all the
> associated "stuff" that accompanies 2 young children.
>
> If this idea would make *ANY* sense...would it even be practical to be 
> able
> to use BOTH motors in the even that a 4wd situation would occur?
>
> --Randall
> Concord, NC
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
> AOL.com.
> (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

The DRAG from an unpowered motor is minimal, just ball bearings and brush 
friction.
You can connect two motors end to back end then to clutch and transmission. 
that gives lots of power 
with two battery strings to supply current from 2 sources its like 400 amps 
total and you could "Smoke" those tall tires, and surprise the ICE V-8 drivers 
!


In a message dated 11/27/2008 6:47:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

Good point! I hadn't thought about that, but it would seem that overspeed 
at highway speeds shouldn't be a problem if you are talking 7:1 gearing with 
tall tires (600+/- revs per mile) on a motor that is rated for 6000+ rpms 
until you hit 85+ mph...

Another question...is there any appreciable "drag" from a motor that has no 
power being applied to it?

--Randall
Concord, NC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> The problem with this setup is the possibility of over speeding the rear
> motor. The rpm limits should not be exceeded even with no power to motor.
>
> It seems to me after reading this entire thread; Best setup and 
> operation
> is for either 2wd or 4wd use differentials, drive shafts, transfer case 
> if
> equipped, manual transmission of 4 or 5 speeds forward and reverse, and 
> include
> the clutch too in some driving situations you can rest your left foot, 
> but
> if you need it the clutch is available! And you can use a slightly smaller
> motor with the choice of gear ratios to assist the torque available for 
> hills
> etc.
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/2008 5:51:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> Forgetting the practicality of the vehicle itself...I just wanted to 
> float
> this idea for those with 4x4 vehicles as potential donors:
>
> If you were to remove the ICE (obviously), transmission (typically an
> automatic), and transfer case...would it make sense to:
>
> 1) regear the front differential to a "nice" highway gearing
> 2) regear the rear differential to a much more agressive gearing that 
> will
> not likely allow for highway speeds
> 3) directly mount two motors, one to each differential
> 4) then through either clever programming or a manual switch choose which
> motor/axle is engaged giving the effect of a two speed transmission. ???
>
> This would seem to allow for less powerful motors since you can match 
> them
> to the axle and type of driving and not to be able to meet the needs of 
> city
> and highway use.
>
> Does this make any sense, even if it might cost a bit more? I keep 
> looking
> at vehicles that I would like to convert and I keep wanting to do either 
> a
> large pickup, or a medium to large SUV since it must seat 4 plus all the
> associated "stuff" that accompanies 2 young children.
>
> If this idea would make *ANY* sense...would it even be practical to be 
> able
> to use BOTH motors in the even that a 4wd situation would occur?
>
> --Randall
> Concord, NC
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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>
>
>
> **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
> AOL.com.
> 
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> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Evan Tuer wrote:
> >> What's wrong with changing between forward and reverse on the fly?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

If you hooked up a mtor to the front axle and oneto the rear axle, could it 
not be controlled like the twin motor in the White Zombie?

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com

>
> True, and that's why I said "provided your controller can do it" 
>
> All my EVs do, and I miss it when I'm driving an ICE..

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Yes, it could. This would give you better traction with four wheel drive, too.

The downsides are that it's possible for the motors to spin at
different speeds, requiring separate overspeed sensors for each motor.
Also, you'd get significant RF noise from the cables between the two
motors, unless you put the cables in a shielded conduit.

This setup has some significant advantages, though. By splitting the
power between front and back, you cut in half the torque you apply on
the drivetrain components. This should improve reliability (or require
less expensive improvements than White Zombie did). You also
significantly improve your traction and grip.

My dream EV would have a setup very similar to this, but with
independent control of the two motors for electric traction control.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you hooked up a mtor to the front axle and oneto the rear axle, could it
> > not be controlled like the twin motor in the White Zombie?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I thought that the ideal launch of a drag racer (we're talking about
Zombie, right)
was where the front wheel hang an inch or so off the ground for all of
its take-off.

How much torque can a wheel off the ground transfer to the road?
That's why many drag racers have installed narrow/light front wheels.
Just enough to steer and brake at the end of the run.

If you don't do wheelstands then a driven front axle may contribute
but in high acceleration it will never be able to do 50-50 with the rear
axle and that was your suggestion (lighter/less expensive components).
The (fast) acceleration is the reverse of the braking setup where many
cars need a proportioning valve to avoid locking up the rear wheels
which are off-loaded during hard braking.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Morgan LaMoore
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.

Yes, it could. This would give you better traction with four wheel
drive, too.

The downsides are that it's possible for the motors to spin at different
speeds, requiring separate overspeed sensors for each motor.
Also, you'd get significant RF noise from the cables between the two
motors, unless you put the cables in a shielded conduit.

This setup has some significant advantages, though. By splitting the
power between front and back, you cut in half the torque you apply on
the drivetrain components. This should improve reliability (or require
less expensive improvements than White Zombie did). You also
significantly improve your traction and grip.

My dream EV would have a setup very similar to this, but with
independent control of the two motors for electric traction control.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Josh Creel <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> > If you hooked up a mtor to the front axle and oneto the rear axle,
> > could it not be controlled like the twin motor in the White Zombie?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

True, a four-wheel drive setup would not work very well for a drag
racer. White zombie was brought up asking about the possibility of
series-parallel shifting with one motor in front and one in the rear.

The "dream EV" I was talking about wouldn't be a drag racer; it
wouldn't have as much starting torque. It would have enough power to
require dual motors, though. Four wheel drive would be more useful for
situations such as poor road conditions or autocross than for starting
torque.

Morgan LaMoore



> Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I thought that the ideal launch of a drag racer (we're talking about
> > Zombie, right)
> > was where the front wheel hang an inch or so off the ground for all of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Morgan,

It sounds like we both have a similar idea. When I first joined this group 
someone sent me this link http://www.proev.com/
Check out the history and build section. They are using 2 AC motors direct 
drive to a separate front and rear diff.

That's my plan now although I'm thinking 2-DC Warp9's. I briefly spoke to 
one of the builders or owner with the same question about separate motors 
and keeping the speed the same. They said it hasn't been an issue. They are 
using the same POT box to drive separate AC controllers for both front and 
rear motors. No speed feedback is needed.

The more I though about it the more it made sense. The front and rear will 
be semi-coupled by the tires and friction to the ground. Doing it this way 
will of course limit the weight needed for the drive train, length and 
complexity of drive shafts etc.

I have two Ford 8.8 diffs for both front and rear set up with independent 
suspension for both. both are custom built by me. The front is loosely based 
on a Mustang II but uses the spindles from a AWD Chevy Astro. The rear is 
similar but uses Corvette rear hubs with upper and lower control arms more 
like a Ford Mustang Cobra. The astro and Corvette have the same lug pattern.

I haven't gotten much further but I'm thinking about coupling the motors to 
the diffs with a 2 inch wide HTD , Gates, or Gillmer belt sort of like a top 
fuel supercharger. I looked into using Goodyear Eagle PD belts but the belt 
itself would be somewhere near $800, gears are $200ish. I can get Gates 
belts and gears something closer to $200 and $50 (same as an aftermarket 
Harley belt drive). The motors will sit on top of the diff, both pointed in 
the same direction so I can keep the timing the same. (don't have to reverse 
one of them). This will also keep them higher in the truck body and give me 
plenty of space for batteries between the frame rails. It will also be 50/50 
weight distribution. The rear motor and suspension will take up most of the 
bed space near the tailgate though.

The front motor pointed forward and behind the front diff, rear pointed 
forward and on top of the rear diff. That gives me the entire inside frame 
rails for battery placement.


I would LOVE to go with LiFePo4 style batteries but I don't think me or the 
price is ready yet. I figure I'll end up with the Exide Orbital 34XCD 
http://www.remybattery.com/Products/Exide-Orbital-34XCD-Xtreme-Cycle-Duty-Battery__34XCD.aspx

Chris





> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > Yes, it could. This would give you better traction with four wheel
> > drive, too.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

I've been trying to remember to sign my posts Stub because there are so many 
Chris's on this list. I think me and another guy have gotten confused by 
other members before.
Anyway.... consider this from Stub.






> Chris Stephens wrote:
> > Morgan,
> >
> > It sounds like we both have a similar idea. When I first joined this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Yes, that was my point. I'm more interested in reliabillity and doing away 
with the transmission, but being able to use smaller motors. The car that 
was on the movie (WKtEC), one of them had two 9" motors driving each front 
wheel directly thus having no transmission or gear reduction. I thought 
that was interesting. Never heard anymore about how it was holding up 
though. Anyway, just thinking out loud on the list here......

Josh
www.jcsevparts.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> True, a four-wheel drive setup would not work very well for a drag
> racer. White zombie was brought up asking about the possibility of
> series-parallel shifting with one motor in front and one in the rear.
>
> The "dream EV" I was talking about wouldn't be a drag racer; it
> wouldn't have as much starting torque. It would have enough power to
> require dual motors, though. Four wheel drive would be more useful for
> situations such as poor road conditions or autocross than for starting
> torque.
>
> Morgan LaMoore

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

That's why I also like the idea of a 4x4 that has a high ratio rear diff for 
off-the-line and city driving, and then a low ratio front diff for highway 
driving and then you can match the motor size to the type of driving for 
that axle, eliminate the transmission and transfer case entirely. Then in 
cases where more traction is needed (ie. snow or mud) then both diffs could 
be used.

--Randall
Concord, NC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


> Yes, that was my point. I'm more interested in reliabillity and doing 
> away
> with the transmission, but being able to use smaller motors. The car 
> that
> was on the movie (WKtEC), one of them had two 9" motors driving each front
> wheel directly thus having no transmission or gear reduction. I thought
> that was interesting. Never heard anymore about how it was holding up
> though. Anyway, just thinking out loud on the list here......
>
> Josh
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.
>
>
>> True, a four-wheel drive setup would not work very well for a drag
>> racer. White zombie was brought up asking about the possibility of
>> series-parallel shifting with one motor in front and one in the rear.
>>
>> The "dream EV" I was talking about wouldn't be a drag racer; it
>> wouldn't have as much starting torque. It would have enough power to
>> require dual motors, though. Four wheel drive would be more useful for
>> situations such as poor road conditions or autocross than for starting
>> torque.
>>
>> Morgan LaMoore
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Note that "reversing" an AC motor is as difficult as swapping any 2 of
the 3 wires...

So you do not want to go direct drive by bolting the motors directly on
the diffs?
I know one bug which has its motor sticking out the back, after turning
the diff around.
That still leaves all space (even slightly more) between frame rails of
your truck.
But you may have a reduction planned in the belt drives, giving you
lower starting torque requirements and/or a faster launch.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chris Stephens
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 11:24 PM
To: Chris Stephens; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


I've been trying to remember to sign my posts Stub because there are so
many Chris's on this list. I think me and another guy have gotten
confused by other members before.
Anyway.... consider this from Stub.






> Chris Stephens wrote:
> > Morgan,
> >
> > It sounds like we both have a similar idea. When I first joined this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Nothing is set in stone yet and I may end up doing just that. It would be 
MUCH easier to direct drive the motor to the pinon like you said. I've 
already scoped that one out.
If I use a TransWarp style with the 32 spline output shaft, and the Ford 8.8 
diff (has a 28 spline), I could easily build adapters useing Mark Williams 
drive line couplers. 
http://www.kenlowe.com.au/driveshafts_couplers_and_covers.htm
Part 28190-40711 gives me the 32 involute spline for the motor, 28190-48328 
gives me the 28 involute spline for the diff and both are made to couple 
together.

I have two issues with doing it this way though. My frame is in the weeds 
and the truck has a body drop. If I use a Warp9 I think I'd be OK but I keep 
tossing the idea of useing dual 11's. If Ido, the motor frame will be around 
3-5 inches off the ground when loaded with batteries and below the frame. 
Also like you said the fact that the gearing can't be easily changed. It 
would force me to regear the diff if I needed to (pain to do and expensive). 
My plan is to build the belt drive 1:1 but have the option to swap pullies 
and belt to gear it up or down some if need be.

If I have 17 inch tires, 4.55 rear gear ratio, that puts me at around 70MPH 
top speed with the Warp9 maxing at 4500 RPM.... right?

I think I want that a little higher like around 85-90MPH. I may end up with 
a 3.25:1 rear gear.
This is the part I have questions about. I'm just not sure. If I go 3.25, 
will I have reasonable torque? I'm an ICE guy so all of this is a bit new to 
me. I understand that the higher gear will need more amps, I just don't have 
experience here not sure which way to compromise or to balance. The ultimate 
goal is a cool looking, fun to drive EV, Rod style truck that I can drive 
anywhere in Atlanta traffic.

Is my thinking and math right?

Stub







> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Note that "reversing" an AC motor is as difficult as swapping any 2 of
> > the 3 wires...
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Let's see,
with 17 inch you specify the rim size, so it could
be a range of possible circumerence numbers.
I went to Tire Rack and selected a random Light Truck
tire in size 235/65/17 (Bridgestone Dueller H/P Sport)
which shows 716 revs/mile for this size.
4500 RPM / 4.55 is almost exactly 1000 RPM on your 
rear tires (989 to be exact)
1000 RPM / 716 revs/mile gives 1.4 mile per minute
which is 84 MPH, so this sounds to be a good match
to your requirement, no need to change the diff
unless your tire size is very different.

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chris Stephens
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.



Nothing is set in stone yet and I may end up doing just that. It would
be MUCH easier to direct drive the motor to the pinon like you said.
I've already scoped that one out.
If I use a TransWarp style with the 32 spline output shaft, and the Ford
8.8 diff (has a 28 spline), I could easily build adapters useing Mark
Williams drive line couplers. 
http://www.kenlowe.com.au/driveshafts_couplers_and_covers.htm
Part 28190-40711 gives me the 32 involute spline for the motor,
28190-48328 gives me the 28 involute spline for the diff and both are
made to couple together.

I have two issues with doing it this way though. My frame is in the
weeds and the truck has a body drop. If I use a Warp9 I think I'd be OK
but I keep tossing the idea of useing dual 11's. If Ido, the motor frame
will be around
3-5 inches off the ground when loaded with batteries and below the
frame. 
Also like you said the fact that the gearing can't be easily changed. It
would force me to regear the diff if I needed to (pain to do and
expensive). 
My plan is to build the belt drive 1:1 but have the option to swap
pullies and belt to gear it up or down some if need be.

If I have 17 inch tires, 4.55 rear gear ratio, that puts me at around
70MPH top speed with the Warp9 maxing at 4500 RPM.... right?

I think I want that a little higher like around 85-90MPH. I may end up
with a 3.25:1 rear gear.
This is the part I have questions about. I'm just not sure. If I go
3.25, will I have reasonable torque? I'm an ICE guy so all of this is a
bit new to me. I understand that the higher gear will need more amps, I
just don't have experience here not sure which way to compromise or to
balance. The ultimate goal is a cool looking, fun to drive EV, Rod style
truck that I can drive anywhere in Atlanta traffic.

Is my thinking and math right?

Stub







> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Note that "reversing" an AC motor is as difficult as swapping any 2 of
> 
> > the 3 wires...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> On 30 Nov 2008 at 9:53, Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > So you do not want to go direct drive by bolting the motors directly on
> > the diffs?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Hi Stub!
I am the guy that turned you on to the proev site when you first joined the
group. I am going to give you another reading assignment now.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/ That's the home page for John Waylands
White Zombie. You really need to look at what he is doing with two eight
inch motors. A pair of nine inch motors is overkill and a pair of eleven
inch motors is just silly  Your truck will be traction limited and battery
limited. It will not be motor limited. Where direct drive sucks is on long
slow hills. Motor amps skyrocket overheating heating motor and controller.
Cooling is needed for both.
What is the highest ratio available for a ford 8.8" ? Get real with
limiting the top end speed and your every day 30 mph to 50 mph driving will
be a breeze. Remember, you are building an aerodynamic brick! High speed
driving will come with a big range penalty.
I do not want any of my comments to sound negative. I truly think you are
onto an awesome retro EV.

Brad



> Chris Stephens-4 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Hi, thanks for the reply. And no worries man! I need constructive criticism. 
Bring it on. That's why I ask.

The 8.8 can go as low as 6.14:1 with machining for the ring gear to fit in 
the case, highest gears I've seen is 2.10:1 useing aftermarket gears. 
Junkyard find OEM stuff is 4.88:1 (rare) and 3.08:1 (very common).

I guess I need to get ICE numbers out of my head. I see low torque and HP 
numbers for these motors like 80HP and 50Ft/Lbs, then compare to some of the 
similar ICE motors and I think no wonder nobody drives EVs. The last car I 
built had a turbo Buick motor out of a Grand National. It dyno'd at 292 HP 
at 4500RPM, 380 Ft/Lbs. 80HP reminds me of a VW bug that can't make 55 
downhill.

Yea... Ya . I know... Electric gives you all that at any RPM but it's still 
hard for me to compare and plan for. I just have no experience here. Never 
even driven an EV. I routinely drive a Kenne-Bell supercharged 70 Mustang, 
it can give me 12lbs of boost just off idle and well... that's fun! That's 
what I'm looking to build. Something fun that I can actually drive. If I'm 
sporting around in Atlanta traffic on 285 at the speed limit people are 
going to run me over! I need to at least be doing 70 in a 55 or it's 
roadkill ! :-0. I'm also used to people telling me something is a little 
overkill and I usually do it anyway. My current project for example is a gas 
powerd blender with electric start. I had a weedwacker and 9 volt Dewalt 
drill as shop junk that needed a project.

So dual 9's are overkill huh? WhiteZombie is bad a$%. And I'm not looking 
to go drag racing but I do want to show off with an evil grin. I'm cool with 
a little overkill but insane tarded overkill is... well.. stupid. so 8's or 
9's it is. I guess 8's are actually slightly overkill, 9's are insane, 11's= 
just plain dumb.

One other reason I was thinking larger=better is it seems that the larger 
motors seems more efficient on the specs as well as in personal theory. I 
figure larger diameter rotor would have better leverage (not sure how to 
explain better) assuming the stator is pushing on the outside of the rotor 
then bigger diameter with the same force will give more torque. Same torque 
= same AMP load so larger diameter with everything else equal should = more 
efficient. In my messed up world this works out anyway, I could be way 
wrong.

I have groovy ideas on cooling as well. A little fiberglass work of the 
grill area can funnel into the front motor. Fiberglass a NACA style duct in 
the bed side low near the rear fender upturn for the rear. Think rod style 
with open side hood and old school fenders with running boards. If that's 
not enough I can easily get 6 inch 12 volt fans to push a little extra.

10-4, on the "long slow hills" & "High speed = range penalty". Again I 
apriciate the comments and feedback. This is all new stuff to me. I've been 
reading a lot of past posts and still trying to fully grasp the motor amp 
thing.



OK, this got a little long and almost off topic. I'm going to bed now.


Stub




> Brad Lindberg wrote:
> > Hi Stub!
> > I am the guy that turned you on to the proev site when you first
> > joined the group. I am going to give you another reading assignment
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

You could go with a single TransWarp 11 and have plenty of power. I think 
the factory has them in stock, I could check for you. (You in Atlanta?) 
I'm only 3.5hours south of there.

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Lindberg" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.


>
> Hi Stub!
> I am the guy that turned you on to the proev site when you first joined 
> the
> group. I am going to give you another reading assignment now.
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/ That's the home page for John Waylands

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Brad Lindberg


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Where direct drive sucks is on long
> > slow hills. Motor amps skyrocket overheating heating motor and controller.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*



> Chris Stephens wrote:
> > I guess I need to get ICE numbers out of my head. I see low torque and
> > HP
> > numbers for these motors like 80HP and 50Ft/Lbs, then compare to some
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Transmissions or lack thereof.*

Doug Weathers wrote:
>


> Chris Stephens wrote:
> >> I guess I need to get ICE numbers out of my head. I see low torque and
> >> HP
> >> numbers for these motors like 80HP and 50Ft/Lbs, then compare to some
> ...


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