# 2/0 and 4/0 orange cable



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> ...The outer jacket is bright orange to comply with SAE standards for High Voltage electric vehicle wiring. Orange cable is also the color fire fighters and emergency response personnel are trained to look for in EVs and hybrids in order to tell which cables are carrying high voltage.


Yes, this is pretty much an international standard from what I can tell.

It also would be nice to have orange HV Andersen connectors (if they make them in that color) for battery pack disconnects.

Unfortunately for many of us, it will be the orange spray paint over the conduit or wrapping orange electrical marking tape on the ends of the conductor thing... 

Next time I do another EV, I'll be looking for the orange cables to have that professional look.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

No affiliation but a quick google search turned up 2/0 orange welding cable for $2.75 a foot.

https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:OR:304-1330UF


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## oates1324 (Oct 13, 2009)

Never done this before... 

What is the difference between the 2/0 and 4/0 cables? I know it has something to do with the diameter of the cable, but is one for use with higher voltages and one lower? Is one more efficient than the other? Which one would I use in a 144 volt system? Sorry, newbie here. 

Thanks guys!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

oates1324 said:


> Never done this before...
> 
> What is the difference between the 2/0 and 4/0 cables? I know it has something to do with the diameter of the cable, but is one for use with higher voltages and one lower? Is one more efficient than the other? Which one would I use in a 144 volt system? Sorry, newbie here.
> 
> Thanks guys!


The 2/0 cable is enough for a 144 volt system.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> The 2/0 cable is enough for a 144 volt system.


Would not the wire gauge depend on the current? And maybe how long the cable runs are? And if they are in an enclosed conduit or the like. Both the 2/0 and 4/0 you say are rated at 600 volts.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

major said:


> Would not the wire gauge depend on the current? And maybe how long the cable runs are? And if they are in an enclosed conduit or the like. Both the 2/0 and 4/0 you say are rated at 600 volts.


True. The 2/0 is enough for just about anyone though. 

For the 4/0 cable:
"This is the cable to use for the motor wiring when using powerful Zilla 2K and 1K controllers and for any long cable lengths where the lowest resistance is desired."


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

For what it's worth here is the NEC ampacity chart:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/3.html

Would be good guidance for sizing wire. I would size the wire based on what your average current would be.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> No affiliation but a quick google search turned up 2/0 orange welding cable for $2.75 a foot.
> 
> https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:OR:304-1330UF



Most likely not the very fine wire 2/0 cable. The very fine is what you want and it's worth the price. I use both kinds and the very fine is the best. 

Pete


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I bought my 4/0 cable for $4.20 per foot from *coppercableman* on ebay. Made in the USA and they can even do custom printing for free. Choice of colors and free shipping. Emm, sorry evcomponents... seems like the same cable??


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

etischer said:


> I bought my 4/0 cable for $4.20 per foot from *coppercableman* on ebay. Made in the USA and they can even do custom printing for free. Choice of colors and free shipping. Emm, sorry evcomponents... seems like the same cable??


50ft seems to be smallest length they sell for 4/0 cable. Ive never really looked into how much 4/0 cable is needed for the typical build, so I dont know really know if its an overkill (or to little).


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Sutitan said:


> 50ft seems to be smallest length they sell for 4/0 cable. Ive never really looked into how much 4/0 cable is needed for the typical build, so I dont know really know if its an overkill (or to little).


We will cut to whatever size someone requests no matter how short. No minimum.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> We will cut to whatever size someone requests no matter how short. No minimum.


Now if you could crimp the lugs on, thats where you could make some money. Most people don't have access to professional hydraulic crimpers, and the hammer and anvil crimpers suck. Being able to buy cables with the lugs crimped on would be worth the extra cost since it would offset the cost of buying an expensive crimper. 

I don't know how much these go for, but might be a good investment. You could crimp a lug every 5 seconds =)


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## JRitt (Sep 29, 2009)

etischer said:


> Now if you could crimp the lugs on, thats where you could make some money. Most people don't have access to professional hydraulic crimpers, and the hammer and anvil crimpers suck. Being able to buy cables with the lugs crimped on would be worth the extra cost since it would offset the cost of buying an expensive crimper.
> 
> I don't know how much these go for, but might be a good investment. You could crimp a lug every 5 seconds =)


 
I agree 100%


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2009)

> Now if you could crimp the lugs on, thats where you could make some money. Most people don't have access to professional hydraulic crimpers, and the hammer and anvil crimpers suck.


Problem is that most conversions are pretty much custom and battery placement and types of batteries are different making it a problem to make up a bunch of connections and then sell them. Each job would be custom and custom jobs are not cheap. Liability then ensues if a cable goes bad. I am not sure I'd want that knowing there are plenty of folks that would try to take advantage of that. I'll stick with doing my own work. Hammer crimpers may suck but if done correctly they work just fine. None of mine have failed. Takes very little time to make. If I do more conversions I will fork over the money, buy the better crimper and make my own.

Pete


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, it's just a suggestion, the majority of my cables are equal length but I realize this may not be the norm. Maybe they could rent the tool out. It certainly saves time, and I gives one confidence knowing the crimps are done properly. The crimper and lugs are made by the same company, and are crimped on with 6 tons of force. 




gottdi said:


> Problem is that most conversions are pretty much custom and battery placement and types of batteries are different making it a problem to make up a bunch of connections and then sell them. Each job would be custom and custom jobs are not cheap. Liability then ensues if a cable goes bad. I am not sure I'd want that knowing there are plenty of folks that would try to take advantage of that. I'll stick with doing my own work. Hammer crimpers may suck but if done correctly they work just fine. None of mine have failed. Takes very little time to make. If I do more conversions I will fork over the money, buy the better crimper and make my own.
> 
> Pete


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> We will cut to whatever size someone requests no matter how short. No minimum.


I would like 1 inch of 4/0 cable please ... you said no minimum ...


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> We will cut to whatever size someone requests no matter how short. No minimum.


I was talking about the ebay account someone linked to. Was trying to point out a small pro of going the EVcomponents way. Well, as long as your getting less then 30 feet.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

280z1975 said:


> I would like 1 inch of 4/0 cable please ... you said no minimum ...


$7 / 12 = $0.58 for that order. Plus $13.95 for shipping and handling.... mostly handling.


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

The bigger you grow for your business the more you can buy in bulk and the more you can pass the savings on.

But if you start getting too big, Walmart will start selling 2/0 and 4/0 welding cable for less.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

tj4fa said:


> The bigger you grow for your business the more you can buy in bulk and the more you can pass the savings on.
> 
> But if you start getting too big, Walmart will start selling 2/0 and 4/0 welding cable for less.


Walmart coming in is possible in any business. This cable is one of those extras that we decided to provide. It is not critical to our business. But somehow I don't see Walmart providing this anytime soon. Home Depot or Lowes might be more likely.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I have done some extensive research with UL, NEC, electrical cable design engineers, cable manufacturers, etc as far as wiring size for electric vehicles. There is no one that will commit to a wire size in EV use, due to the variations in current draw, duty cycle, lenght of cable,open air or enclosed, etc. I understand that there is finally a standard that is coming out next year I believe from UL. 
From histories standpoint, when GE designed an electric car drive system in the 80's with a 500A controller, they specified 1/0 cable. Is it safe to think GE may have done some good engineering on this at the time?
From an experience standpoint, I use 1/0 cable for conversions up to 500A and the cable temperature rises 4 degrees above ambient (at 70*) under extreme conditions. (0-60 times, top speed runs).I also do not see any appreciable, measureable voltage drop due to the cable size (there are calculations for that,too)(not talking about sag due to current draw) for conversions 500-1000a, I use 2/0, and if a drag car, 4/0. Of course, the larger the cable the better electrically wise, but for cost and weight differences, sizing the cable without going overboard can have significant savings for both. You could use both the money and the weight savings for something else.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> I have done some extensive research with UL, NEC, electrical cable design engineers, cable manufacturers, etc as far as wiring size for electric vehicles. There is no one that will commit to a wire size in EV use, due to the variations in current draw, duty cycle, lenght of cable,open air or enclosed, etc. I understand that there is finally a standard that is coming out next year I believe from UL.
> From histories standpoint, when GE designed an electric car drive system in the 80's with a 500A controller, they specified 1/0 cable. Is it safe to think GE may have done some good engineering on this at the time?
> From an experience standpoint, I use 1/0 cable for conversions up to 500A and the cable temperature rises 4 degrees above ambient (at 70*) under extreme conditions. (0-60 times, top speed runs).I also do not see any appreciable, measureable voltage drop due to the cable size (there are calculations for that,too)(not talking about sag due to current draw) for conversions 500-1000a, I use 2/0, and if a drag car, 4/0. Of course, the larger the cable the better electrically wise, but for cost and weight differences, sizing the cable without going overboard can have significant savings for both. You could use both the money and the weight savings for something else.
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


Hey EV-prop,

Can't disagree with that. I think that that battery capacity has a lot to do with the minimum size you really need, also. Afterall, that can determine how long you can draw how much current. And then the fact that currents will be higher in the motor circuit than the battery circuit, so you may need larger cable from the controller to the motor.

BTW, do you handle orange sealing heat shrink tube for the cable lug ends?

Regards,

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Could someone translate 2/0 and 4/0 to metric units (mm ²)?


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

yes, there is always that route of using heatshrink that is orange where it can be seen (don't flip over though)
I don't have orange in stock, although I think now I will !

wire sizes-see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

metric and other size chart and calculations.....

Mike,
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Could someone translate 2/0 and 4/0 to metric units (mm ²)?


Hi Cro,

How's this? 

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm 

Regards,

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hi Cro,
> 
> How's this?


Thank you 


Looks like I'm using a much bigger wire than the 4/0. I have a 240 mm ² wire

(4/0=107 ²)

It was not easy to get one of those.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Looks like I'm using a much bigger wire than the 4/0. I have a 240 mm ² wire
> 
> (4/0=107 ²)


Yeah,

That's over twice what you need.

Here's another table. Sizes are a bit different, but it goes to much larger cable. 

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizemetgagetoawgtable.html 

major


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

is that your copper measurement or insulation included? what are the markings on the jacket? are you building a locomotive?


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

just watch what the charts are using- some include the jacket, which can vary, plus its not really what the awg size includes.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> is that your copper measurement or insulation included? what are the markings on the jacket? are you building a locomotive?


It's the copper measurement.

I know that it's a overkill now with a dual 11" kostov, Z1K and ThunderSkys. I will upgrade to A123 and a controller with a "little" more juice later so I just wanted to be prepaired.

However, this has nothing to do with EVcomponent's wire.


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## 300zxev (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi CroDriver

I'm using 98sqmm ... i think that is about 4/0 size.
I had to use 120mm lugs though


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Could someone translate 2/0 and 4/0 to metric units (mm ²)?


I was wanting to know the same thing.

I hadn't even considered cable size yet but had been wondering about the range of reasonable size to consider.

Looks like I will be looking at around 120mm² upwards.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

If I ask what color is HIGH voltage Orange you will all chuckle 

But if I say all LOW voltage fittings are Orange you will explain right? 

Just another thought from an ADD guy!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

"Resi-Gard provides an easier way of distributing cabling from a main distribution panel to a secondary hub and other locations where *low voltage* wiring may be needed. This flexible raceway is ideal for easy access to cables for maintenance or service of cables as well as future expansion."

could slip it over - Home Depot has it.....


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> If I ask what color is HIGH voltage Orange you will all chuckle
> 
> But if I say all LOW voltage fittings are Orange you will explain right?
> 
> Just another thought from an ADD guy!


Automotive and electonics wiring color codes are different than electrical distribution systems for industrial/commercial/residential color codes.

For example - Automotive ground wire colors are black and electrical distribution grounding wires are green or bare copper or yellow-green for international codes.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Automotive and electonics wiring color codes are different than electrical distribution systems for industrial/commercial/residential color codes.
> 
> For example - Automotive ground wire colors are black and electrical distribution grounding wires are green or bare copper or yellow-green for international codes.


Yep - an that's why we can use the one for the other.... that orange conduit is easy to split and fits 2/0... and it is real cheap! But hard to find a true voltage rate for it - as similar grey will take 600 volts... Thanks


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> From an experience standpoint, I use 1/0 cable for conversions up to 500A and the cable temperature rises 4 degrees above ambient (at 70*) under extreme conditions. (0-60 times, top speed runs).I also do not see any appreciable, measureable voltage drop due to the cable size (there are calculations for that,too)(not talking about sag due to current draw) for conversions 500-1000a, I use 2/0, and if a drag car, 4/0. Of course, the larger the cable the better electrically wise, but for cost and weight differences, sizing the cable without going overboard can have significant savings for both. You could use both the money and the weight savings for something else.


 Thanks! Good data.


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## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Just for experiment, i have used 2 foot 4 gauge cable (not 4/0) - and with currents up to 200A I was hadly measuring any voltage drop above 0.1 volts. Ofcourse the thicker - the better, but I'd say it's impossible to overheat/melt 2/0 cable on ANY ev convertion. And voltage drop is easily measurable.
I plan to run 3/0 cable to front battery compartment, but only because I get them from scrap place, coming off forklifts. 5-6 foot lenghts, but at a good price And from my understanding whis is overkill for any upgrade I will possibly do on Fiero.


EV pulls high currents only for a short period of time, so link above doesn't really apply. Once acceleration part is over - you hardly pull above 100A, and even 1/0 cable is plenty for 100A. On acceleration, even with 1000A current, the very worst that will happen - you'll loose 1.0v as voltage drop, which will dissipate as 144 Watts (on 144v system) over 10-15 feet of cable. even 15W of heating per foot is *nothing*, unless you leave it running constantly for hours and wrap cable in good insulation.

So don't go crazy, giant cables are only crucial for dragsters, where currents are huge and acceleration - all that matters.


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## JRitt (Sep 29, 2009)

Stunt Driver said:


> Just for experiment, i have used 2 foot 4 gauge cable (not 4/0) - and with currents up to 200A I was hadly measuring any voltage drop above 0.1 volts. Ofcourse the thicker - the better, but I'd say it's impossible to overheat/melt 2/0 cable on ANY ev convertion. And voltage drop is easily measurable.
> I plan to run 3/0 cable to front battery compartment, but only because I get them from scrap place, coming off forklifts. 5-6 foot lenghts, but at a good price And from my understanding whis is overkill for any upgrade I will possibly do on Fiero.
> 
> 
> ...


your wattage dissipated for that calculation would be 1000w (1v times 1000a) ~100w/foot. Still not to bad for a max of 20 seconds
based on a single 10ft cable (remember you have 2) and 1000a you dissipate the following
1/0 990w
2/0 770w it would take 1.5min to heat this cable 10degF @1000a
3/0 620w
4/0 490w

for 500a the wattage would be 1/4 of the above
for 200a the wattage would be 1/25 of the above
for 100a the wattage would be 1/100 of the above


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I was planning on using 3/0 also, but found the lugs and cables were cheaper using 4/0 because 3/0 is almost never used. YMMV


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