# [evdl] battery staying power, concerned? Check this



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*

Roland,

thanks we are gettin closer


"These busses only make about a 7 to 10 mile loop before they return to the
depot where they said they can be charge in 15 minutes for another run." 

I can deal with that for some applications, municipal projects etc

but still would like to see a 'conversion', with all details, utilizing that
method, probably this forum administrator can help, if he is the same person
administrating for the last 20 years

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*

Quick charge. You need a power source that can output high amps. Just don't
go too high and don't fill to full. Stop at about 80% to help protect the
cells against overheating and over charging. It can happen real fast at the
end of charge if your pumping in high amps. Charge directly from DC current
like a bank of batteries. They would be able to output high amps and charge
the cells real fast. Limit the output and set it to end the charge at a
specific voltage. Remember that high charge amps will heat the cells up. Be
extra careful. 

Pete 

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*

Lee,

"Interestingly, it is only novices (both individuals and large
manufacturers) who forget that batteries frequently need to be changed, and
so package their batteries to be nearly impossible to quickly replace. They
learn..."

I visualize switching batteries even more than once a day in some cases and
aplications, to extend the range, and go nonstop doing whatever you need to
do, instead of waiting next to the ac plug on the wall.

The people from Israel nor the European Union have clafirifed where and how
they are going to place and switch the batteries in their new cars.

So let's talk conversion...

what about placing the batteries on the roof of the vehicle?

I dont know if is law now but to prevent fatalities DOT was proposing to
make roof crush resistant up to 2.5 times de curb weigh of the vehicle. I'm
sure you people can come up with other roof ideas to make it work in extreme
cases. 

nobody have to see your batteries, there are nice car roof cargo devices. If
you do the ventilation trick, batteries will feel happier and you will have
more elbow room inside the car.

We dont have to load and unload the whole pack at once, they can be arranged
in subpacks...

Amphibian,

I doubt that whatever you wrote in another website, will change my mind as
to the convinience of the battery switching idea.

but you can try... just post your mind *here*, the gist of it, so you dont
feel like "polluting". 
--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*

I think the law in Europe allows max 75 kg of roof payload.
That is usually reached with a few bicycles or a "ski" box.
Remember that the load on the roof is the worst place for
the stability of the vehicle (tipping over on incline or curve)
While in the USA many people found the death by using farm vehicles
(which pickup trucks and SUVs are, that is why they are exempt
from many requirements that apply to passenger vehicles like
mini-vans, sedans, wagons, ...) as those vehicles had until
recently almost no roll-over protection, the cabin roof simply
collapsed on the slightest impact...
During an impact the force on any roof load will be dozens of
times the weight of the load, due to the enormous G-force
upon impact (sudden stop, such as hitting a fixed object)
So a 100 kg roof load that will not normally hurt the roof
might completely tear the roof off the vehicle in a collision.
Note that on many modern vehicles a lot of the roof load is 
actually taken by the glass, so that glass will shatter and 
fly like a bomb went off if your roof is deformed with force.

I think that the only acceptable place for batteries is to
have them *bolted down* or otherwise secured in the truck bed,
if you want them easily accessible.
I think "Neon John" (but I may be confusing him with another EV'er)
had a motorized roll-out tray with batteries.
But again the batteries were bolted down to the tray and the
tray was secured in place.

Hope this gives some ideas,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626  VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of hi-tech
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS

Lee,

"Interestingly, it is only novices (both individuals and large
manufacturers) who forget that batteries frequently need to be changed,
and so package their batteries to be nearly impossible to quickly
replace. They learn..."

I visualize switching batteries even more than once a day in some cases
and aplications, to extend the range, and go nonstop doing whatever you
need to do, instead of waiting next to the ac plug on the wall.

The people from Israel nor the European Union have clafirifed where and
how they are going to place and switch the batteries in their new cars.

So let's talk conversion...

what about placing the batteries on the roof of the vehicle?

I dont know if is law now but to prevent fatalities DOT was proposing to
make roof crush resistant up to 2.5 times de curb weigh of the vehicle.
I'm sure you people can come up with other roof ideas to make it work in
extreme cases. 

nobody have to see your batteries, there are nice car roof cargo
devices. If you do the ventilation trick, batteries will feel happier
and you will have more elbow room inside the car.

We dont have to load and unload the whole pack at once, they can be
arranged in subpacks...

Amphibian,

I doubt that whatever you wrote in another website, will change my mind
as to the convinience of the battery switching idea.

but you can try... just post your mind *here*, the gist of it, so you
dont feel like "polluting". 
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STA
YING-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3485431.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*

Cor Van,

I think you are the one I need to talk to about Wimax, proxim publication
"Government Grants Resource Guide" [which i downloaded a couple of years
ago] etc etc, we are are tuned to the same wavelenght. For years have
planned a trip to Holland.

Wireless telecom is my real career. Right now looking for wimax AP, cpe
[prefer lower bands, 900mhz] and an ip softswitch. 

to complement this site, say something about the "air car", dont remember
how it works. I went to your web site and saw your EVs too...,

I can email you to your hotmail address to keep unrelated topics out of this
site.--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] BATTERY STAYING POWER, CONCERNED? CHECK THIS*



> hi-tech wrote:
> >
> >
> > Amphibian,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*



> AMPhibian wrote:
> > [Battery swapping] is not necessary, it adds expense, there is no infrastructure and would be
> > incredibly costly to build one, there are no pack standards and it's too
> > early to create them, and did I mention it's not necessary?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

what kind of voltage modern trolley use [Seatle W.?], what about older
systems?

same question for trains such as those made by Siemens, using power an rail
sytem identical to those in NYC subway

Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
running.

I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while stopped, nor the
noise is made my AC units.--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STAYING-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3486919.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

I believe the power is 600 v DC. A quick google search didn't turn up any
proof, however, but I'm certain I've seen this figure many times before.
I'm not sure if how relevant modern vs older is: at least here, they run
busse from multiple time periods, so changing the line voltage would be a
compromising operation.

Incidentally, this is a timely referece. The county (which runs the bus
system) has been evaluating what to replace the aging trolly fleet with.
Fortuantly, the results of a long study indicate that new trollys are the
best replacement (no "diseasels"). Frankly, I think there will be a huge
uproar if they decide not to use trollys.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Metro-wants-new-trolle
y-buses-to-replace-older-1355632.php#photo-2

Another interesting study is going on, too, with a totally BEV Bus.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/transportation/kcdot/NewsCenter/NewsReleases/2010/
October/nr102910_batterybus.aspx

Peri 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of hi-tech
Sent: 30 April, 2011 5:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this

what kind of voltage modern trolley use [Seatle W.?], what about older
systems?

same question for trains such as those made by Siemens, using power an rail
sytem identical to those in NYC subway

Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
running.

I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while stopped, nor the
noise is made my AC units.-- View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STAYING
-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3486919.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > AMPhibian wrote:
> >> [Battery swapping] is not necessary, it adds expense, there is no
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Proterra has buses using Altairnano batteries that fast charge at stops and
during breaks. Perfect fit for their high charge rate and high cycle life,
where their poor density doesn't matter as much.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > On 4/30/2011 4:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
> >> On 4/30/2011 4:29 PM,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*



> On 30 Apr 2011 at 20:09, AMPhibian wrote:
> 
> > In the long run leasing costs more than owning, that's why companies offer
> > leasing, they make money from it. Packs are expensive, adding leasing fees,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Trains use routinely 25kV 50/60Hz AC except in some
countries that deviate, for example in The Netherlands
the national railway uses only 1500V so the current is
more than an order of magnitude larger. This limits
the number of trains on one feeder station and per
track, it can even limit the speed of acceleration and
deceleration to avoid too large voltage swings in the
overhead wiring.
The new high-speed (TGV) train lines therefor only use
25kV but since they use a separate track, that is OK.

Where 3rd rail is used the voltage is even lower, to
avoid arcing due to contamination and since the rail
has a pretty sizeable diameter, it can take a lot
of current. Typical voltages are 500 and 750V, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_systems_for_electric_rail_t
raction 


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of hi-tech
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 5:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this

what kind of voltage modern trolley use [Seatle W.?], what about older
systems?

same question for trains such as those made by Siemens, using power an
rail sytem identical to those in NYC subway

Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
running.

I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while stopped, nor
the noise is made my AC units.-- View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STA
YING-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3486919.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Those people would probably just lease the complete vehicle, and have even
more protection than just pack coverage. Or they should just keep driving
efficient used ICE's, EV's aren't for everyone at this time. That said,
battery packs could be leased without being fast swap capable. If pack
removal rarely happens it doesn't really matter if it takes 15-20 minutes to
do it.



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 30 Apr 2011 at 20:09, AMPhibian wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Cor Van,

"Trains use routinely 25kV 50/60Hz AC except in some
countries that deviate, for example in The Netherlands
the national railway uses only 1500V so the current is
more than an order of magnitude larger."

I though they were dc. Single phase i imagine.

but what about voltage level used by trolleys?, 
dc or ac?

Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
running. I find it too loud.

I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while not running,
imitating ICE ?  

is the noise made by AC units.-

In the past i have searched my question by got nothing.

--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Hi Tony,

The whistling noise is the energy conversion (DC/AC)
that generates the voltage for inside the train
(lights and such) as well as for the motor drive,
you will hear the frequency and amplitude vary
when the speed varies. 

I believe that in The Netherlands they have 1500V DC
but the link I sent will confirm it.
The 25kV is typically AC.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of hi-tech
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this

Cor Van,

"Trains use routinely 25kV 50/60Hz AC except in some countries that
deviate, for example in The Netherlands the national railway uses only
1500V so the current is more than an order of magnitude larger."

I though they were dc. Single phase i imagine.

but what about voltage level used by trolleys?, dc or ac?

Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
running. I find it too loud.

I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while not running,
imitating ICE ?  

is the noise made by AC units.-

In the past i have searched my question by got nothing.

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STA
YING-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3491759.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

The trains here in perth run from a 33kV line (AC).

course its rectified then fed to a VFD.

only takes 30A to accelerate at full power (~1MW)

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this


> Hi Tony,
> 
> The whistling noise is the energy conversion (DC/AC)
> that generates the voltage for inside the train
> (lights and such) as well as for the motor drive,
> you will hear the frequency and amplitude vary
> when the speed varies. 
> 
> I believe that in The Netherlands they have 1500V DC
> but the link I sent will confirm it.
> The 25kV is typically AC.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of hi-tech
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this
> 
> Cor Van,
> 
> "Trains use routinely 25kV 50/60Hz AC except in some countries that
> deviate, for example in The Netherlands the national railway uses only
> 1500V so the current is more than an order of magnitude larger."
> 
> I though they were dc. Single phase i imagine.
> 
> but what about voltage level used by trolleys?, dc or ac?
> 
> Btw have been wondering for a while what is that noise produced by some
> trains made by Siemens [probably others too], even when they are not
> running. I find it too loud.
> 
> I dont want to beleive they keep the motors running while not running,
> imitating ICE ?  
> 
> is the noise made by AC units.-
> 
> In the past i have searched my question by got nothing.
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BATTERY-STA
> YING-POWER-CONCERNED-CHECK-THIS-tp3469112p3491759.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

I remembered that some of the commuter trains going north out of New York
City used 25hz ac in the 1980s, don't know if they still do. Don't know
what voltage they used.
A quick googling turned up this wiki page on Utility Frequency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency
It says the Niagra Falls turbines where spec'd for 250 RPM "before
alternating current power transmission had been definitively selected."

Mike Shipway-



> matt lacey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The trains here in perth run from a 33kV line (AC).
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Battery staying power, concerned? Check this*

Mike,

Now that you mention utilities, I will start a different
subject/thread/topic, to untangle this one, my fault from the begining going
off on a tangent everytime.

I think my "question' will be interesting, as the media is confusing the
public about utilities, possibly "utilizing" their audience. And those who
know better dont "rectify" them. Pun intented

--
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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