# [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Anyone have experience using the ac50 with hills??? We are thinking about us a ford ranger ac50 100volts 130amp hour calb

Sent from my iPhone

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did you ever run your truck on 100v ? it would probably be like that. Only
not as good. most definitely should keep the tyranny.


> "Mike Golub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Anyone have experience using the ac50 with hills??? We are thinking about
> > us a ford ranger ac50 100volts 130amp hour calb
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are some program changes you can make that will help with the hills.
And, make sure you install a water cooled heat exchanger under the 1238 or
it will reduce the 650a to a lot less when it gets hot going up a hill,
especially with a heavy vehicle. Mine never gets over 50c no matter how hard
I push it. You may want to reconsider 130ah in favor of the 180ah, that will
also help.

--
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What is your pack amps hr?

Sent from my iPhone



> harry henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > i'm getting more power than i expected from my AC50, make sure you get the 650 amp version
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can you specify a heat exchanger?

Sent from my iPhone



> Cruisin <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There are some program changes you can make that will help with the hills.
> > And, make sure you install a water cooled heat exchanger under the 1238 or
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't have experience with the AC50, but 100V seems a little low for a
vehicle the size of a Ranger. My del Sol has 144V and has adequate
performance with 300A draw from my 100ah Thundersky cells. With 130 ah CALB
cells you might be able to pull 400A, but that might not be enough for the
Ranger. I wonder if a higher voltage or larger cells would be a better fit.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mike Golub
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 2:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?
> 
> Anyone have experience using the ac50 with hills??? We are thinking about
> us a ford ranger ac50 100volts 130amp hour calb
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I was thinking about Maxing the voltage. it tops out at about 105 volts... Yeah using a pack of CALB 130 amp hr batteries won't be able to do more than 520 amps, yet the controller can do 650 amps. But do you need more than 50kW?
I think the Curtis 1238 can be programmed to allow less then 650 amps?

Sent from my iPhone



> "Mike Nickerson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What voltage are the Rangers? I think you might get more amps out of the
> > 300 ah Winstons than the 130 ah CALB the original poster mentioned. I'm not
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't know if you need more than 50 kW. My del Sol uses about 50+ kW
(300A at 140V) to accelerate at a good pace. This lets me pull out
confidently, but is by no means as fast as some drivers on the road would
like to accelerate. I'm guessing 0-60 times around 13-14 seconds or so.
That's on a car that weighs 2550 pounds, after conversion. (Kind of heavy
for its size, but the del Sol curb weight was 2300 pounds originally.)

I'm guessing the Ranger pickup will be somewhat heavier, so performance will
be less. While cruising, the del Sol needs about 14 kW to hold 60 mph.
Again, I would expect the Ranger to need more. 

The question is whether that performance is OK. 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Mike Golub
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 12:59 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?
> 
> I was thinking about Maxing the voltage. it tops out at about 105 volts...
Yeah
> using a pack of CALB 130 amp hr batteries won't be able to do more than
520
> amps, yet the controller can do 650 amps. But do you need more than 50kW?
> I think the Curtis 1238 can be programmed to allow less then 650 amps?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:38 PM, "Mike Nickerson"


> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > What voltage are the Rangers? I think you might get more amps out of
> > > the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The AC50 with 1238-7601 650A controller has peak torque of about 108 ft-lb. 
The max voltage of the controller is 130V. A number of us are using 36
cells for 115V nominal pack voltage. I think a 115V pack will sag to
somewhere around 100V at 650A (my 180Ah cells sag to about 105V at 550A),
maybe less with 130Ah cells. That would give 108 ft-lb out to about 3500
rpm, so about 53-54 kW or about 72 H.P. peak shaft power. Adequate to take
you up fairly steep grades, with an LiFePO4 pack. You will be pushing the
130Ah cells to their 5C limit drawing the full 650A, so I wouldn't be
surprised if it decreases their lifetime somewhat if it is done regularly.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Ac50-and-hills-tp4502127p4503194.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Does it indeed have maximum voltage of 130 nominal or fully charged?

Sent from my iPhone



> tomw <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > The AC50 with 1238-7601 650A controller has peak torque of about 108 ft-lb.
> > The max voltage of the controller is 130V. A number of us are using 36
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the Swallow project Jack Rickard did he used 38 cells. They charge to 
about 133 volts but quickly drop below 130 after the charge is done. He 
feels the controller can handle that. YMMV.

--Rick

On 3/25/2012 1:39 PM, Mike Golub wrote:
> Does it indeed have maximum voltage of 130 nominal or fully charged?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>


> tomw<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> The AC50 with 1238-7601 650A controller has peak torque of about 108 ft-lb.
> >> The max voltage of the controller is 130V. A number of us are using 36
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

133/38 = 3.5 volts

Is this a new charging level for lifepo4

Sent from my iPhone



> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On the Swallow project Jack Rickard did he used 38 cells. They charge to
> > about 133 volts but quickly drop below 130 after the charge is done. He
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It depends on your ending current and if you are after a 100%SOC
charge. The procedure is to charge to 3.6-3.65V and end when the
current tapers to 0.05C. Many people ignore the ending current part.
Charging to over 3.4V with a low enough ending current can/will
overcharge the cells. Of course, the lower the ending voltage the
lower the ending current can be without overcharging the cells
provided that the ending current is at least 3.4V. At 3.4V it will
take a very long time to reach 100%SOC. I don't recall what the ending
current is that Jack is using when charging to 3.5vpc but I'm sure
that he is slightly undercharging the cells. This has the benefit of
prolonging their calendar life. I charge to 3.465vpc with an ending
current around 100mA, mostly because my charger doesn't have the
option to terminate charge based on voltage and current so it just
tapers back until the timer shuts it off. After a couple hours my
cells rest slightly below 3.4V, usually 3.38-3.39vpc indicating that I
didn't overcharge them. If they rest over 3.4V after sitting unloaded
for a few hours then they were overcharged.

HTH,



> Mike Golub <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 133/38 =3D 3.5 volts
> >
> > Is this a new charging level for lifepo4
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess he will find out if the controller can indeed
take more than 130V if that is the spec.
I know (he is still on this list) an EV'er with a 192V
AGM pack who used a 110V Iota as DC/DC. He found that
the Iota could take the abuse as long as he meticiously
unplugged the Iota from the pack (he had a wall type socket
connected to his pack for the Iota power cord) before
every charge.
One day he forgot that and of course he came back to the
EV with a blown DC/DC.
I am still surprised to see that the Iota which probably
has no more than 200V caps survived so long on the 192V
nominal pack that would easily be over 208V (13V per
battery) after a charge, but I think that the saving
grace for a long time was that this overvoltage would
only happen for a brief period, after unplugging the pack
he usually immediately drove the car, so within a minute
the voltage would sag to around 200V at idle (12.5V per battery)
but of course the charging event caused up to 240V on the
200V caps for a long period and that was the end of the Iota.

I hope for Jack that he got approval from the manufacturer
(or looked inside the controller) to verify the rating on
the parts to handle 133V. Time will tell, but as long as 
the voltage transgression is only brief and during a
period of non use of the controller then this may be
perfectly fine.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 12:38 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?

On the Swallow project Jack Rickard did he used 38 cells. They charge to
about 133 volts but quickly drop below 130 after the charge is done. He
feels the controller can handle that. YMMV.

--Rick

On 3/25/2012 1:39 PM, Mike Golub wrote:
> Does it indeed have maximum voltage of 130 nominal or fully charged?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>


> tomw<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> The AC50 with 1238-7601 650A controller has peak torque of about 108
> ft-lb.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I used to have a 5000 lbs EV with 50kW drive and that
was a Freeway capable truck.
This was a US Electricar S10 with 312V pack but the
battery current was limited to 200A due to the IGBT
choice of the controller giving max 250A motor current.
Not good for high speed hill climbing, but in flat 
areas and city traffic the 50kW is plenty if you are 
used to anticipating.
I have the feeling that the current trend to excessive
power in vehicles is simply to allow people to drive
who do not have the insight to anticipate traffic, so
they need to get up to speed *now*! Instead of giving
themselves a couple hundred feet of space, waiting at
the start of an onramp if the lane is completely full and 
accelerating to traffic speed while still on the ramp,
to merge in an opening that they have spotted coming up.

Anyway, back on topic: that truck (S10) carried 1800 lbs
(over 1/3 total weight including driver) of lead so it
had a decent range but acceleration was moderate to slow
once up to speed, your vehicle is much lighter so
it is not a matter of whether it will work but what your
expectations are, whether this will be a solution that
you like.
BTW, I did like driving around in that truck and still
regret that I had to sell it, so I recently bought
another EV truck, again with rather modest power and
hopefully a decent range - I will know in a month or so
when I can start driving it.


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:45 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?

I don't know if you need more than 50 kW. My del Sol uses about 50+ kW
(300A at 140V) to accelerate at a good pace. This lets me pull out
confidently, but is by no means as fast as some drivers on the road
would like to accelerate. I'm guessing 0-60 times around 13-14 seconds
or so.
That's on a car that weighs 2550 pounds, after conversion. (Kind of
heavy for its size, but the del Sol curb weight was 2300 pounds
originally.)

I'm guessing the Ranger pickup will be somewhat heavier, so performance
will be less. While cruising, the del Sol needs about 14 kW to hold 60
mph.
Again, I would expect the Ranger to need more. 

The question is whether that performance is OK. 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Mike Golub
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 12:59 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ac50 and hills?
> 
> I was thinking about Maxing the voltage. it tops out at about 105
volts...
Yeah
> using a pack of CALB 130 amp hr batteries won't be able to do more 
> than
520
> amps, yet the controller can do 650 amps. But do you need more than
50kW?
> I think the Curtis 1238 can be programmed to allow less then 650 amps?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:38 PM, "Mike Nickerson"


> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > What voltage are the Rangers? I think you might get more amps out
> > > of the 300 ah Winstons than the 130 ah CALB the original poster
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> >most definitely should keep the tyranny.
> LOL
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think this needs a little refinement: "Charging to over 3.4V with a low
enough ending current can/will 
overcharge the cells."

Clearly the cells need to be charged for enough time at the lower current to
transfer enough charge to overcharge the cells, and how long that is will
depend on the voltage per cell at which the CC-CV transition occurs. The
amount of charge you can add to a cell from the bottom of the exponential
part of the curve to the limit of 3.6V (CALB cells) is independent of charge
current, it just gets added faster at higher currents and the cells climb
the V versus Ah curve faster (I've done that test).

My charger starts transitioning from CC to CV mode at about 122.8V or about
3.41 +/-0.02V per cell (36 CALB cells, top balanced). Typically the current
is less than 1A within around 20 minutes. It continues charging for another
20 minutes or so at 0.3 - 1A, say 0.6A average, if I don't intervene and
shut it off before this. It transfers about 0.2Ah over this 20 minutes, and
maybe around 1 1/3 Ah during the previous 20 minutes, so around 1 1/2Ah
total. I know there is not enough charge transferred in this 40 minutes to
overcharge the cells starting from 3.41 +/-0.2V, because I have individually
charged cells with a power supply set at 5A CC and measured the time it
requires them to go from various starting voltages to 3.5V to determine the
Ah added. 

The SOC the CC-CV transition occurs at depends on magnitude of the charging
current of course, since cell voltage depends on SOC and V drop across the
cell ir - which increases significantly at the exponential part of the
curve. At 7-8A charging current, a few shunts may come on for the last 5-10
minutes (minibms, 3.49 - 3.51V shunt V). The cells remain at lower voltage
at larger charging currents since the CC-CV transition occurs at lower SOC
and the current then cuts back fairly quickly, so charging ends at a lower
SOC compared to when charging at lower currents. 

Sure, if you want to be safe don't charge any cells over 3.45V or so, but it
is a bit more complex than just saying charging at low ending currents
can/will overcharge cells. It CAN, depending on setting of the CC-CV
transition voltage, and length of charging time from that point.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Ac50-and-hills-tp4502127p4506334.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor wrote: "I hope for Jack that he got approval from the manufacturer (or
> looked inside the controller) to verify the rating on the parts to handle
> 133V."
> 
> ...


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