# LiFeBATT Introduces P-20 Prismatic Packs



## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

LiFeBATT is launching our new Prismatic 20Ah Cells in Plug & Play Aluminum hard cases including BMS & LVC. Look for this product to be available by early May, 2010 and watch for our new website update soon: www.lifebatt.com If someone can tell me how to attach a PDF file I will be glad to post the Specs ?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

When you're replying scroll down and click "manage attachments", then browse to the PDF, upload it, then submit your reply. There is a size limit of 976k for PDF's.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks for helping me and here are the P-20 Specs. We will be selling them in hard-pack modules that include the BMS & LVC. Shipping will be from our headquarters in Danville, VA. Cells are made in Taiwan (not China) and Pack modules assembled in USA. All warranty is done in U.S.

Available beginning May, 2010 launch date.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

Don Harmon said:


> Thanks for helping me and here are the P-20 Specs. We will be selling them in hard-pack modules that include the BMS & LVC. Shipping will be from our headquarters in Danville, VA. Cells are made in Taiwan (not China) and Pack modules assembled in USA. All warranty is done in U.S.
> 
> Available beginning May, 2010 launch date.


Don,

Do you have any pricing for these new cells?


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

Don
When a company is too embarrassed by their price point to list it, most DIYers will go "Its obviously too expensive for my blood." and not give you a second look. This is the reason DC and lead acid still dominates the market. Low power AC systems are around 5K the same power point DC systems are about half that. And in the high power AC systems and DC equivalent system is <1/3.

I am getting in to conversions due to the fact I'm sick and tired of waiting for a reasonable priced EV and on top of it all the ones that appears not to be vaporware (Aptera), they are so completely and utterly but ugly (Nissan LEAF) that their mother couldn't even love like them.

ShanDong is about $.37/WH, TS ~$.40 / WH and SE/CLAB ~$.45WH. currently Valence has a product almost identical to yours at ~ $2.50/WH and they will only be bought by Super-car makers and maybe not even that if they do not become resonable priced. 

If your product is ~ $.56/WH you may have a very hot product but don't hold your breath if its closer to Valence's price point.

THE LESSON OF THE RANT: 
Unless you have a truly exciting innovation (like Cro's 200KW micomotor or Elocap CNT {Vaporware?}) please list a price point.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

With the 1500 cycle life they list they'd have to be much cheaper than that to equal cycle life costs for the other cells that show 3000 cycles minimum.


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

I totally missed the 1500 cycle life. But is that a cycle life or a cycle warranty the old Ngage from Valence had a 1 year / 1000 Cycle warranty. But most of our (10/15) are still running, 5 years and 3500+cycles later, and the ones that failed are directly linked to the Valence BMS failing in the Ngage system.


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

According to their warranty the 1500 has to be wrong. 

http://www.lifebatt.com/warranty.asp

3 Years or 3,000 Cycles.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

So I'm guessing we have to wait until the official "launch date" in May to get the pricing...


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## AndyH (Jun 15, 2008)

That warranty is likely for the current cylindrical cells. I haven't seen any info on their website yet about the new pouch/prismatic cells.

Andy



arddea said:


> According to their warranty the 1500 has to be wrong.
> 
> http://www.lifebatt.com/warranty.asp
> 
> 3 Years or 3,000 Cycles.


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## jmygann (Jul 26, 2007)

So where can I get prismatic packs ?

48-50 volt 200 ahr to replace my lead batts in my geo 

http://www.evalbum.com/994


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don Harmon said:


> I agree but there is really NO comparison between TS and SE/CALB with the LiFeBATT product. If you are satisfied with a 2C Rate product then you don't need a 5C Rate product which is OK with us.  Besides the product we offer is a real Plug & Play modular system that includes an Aluminum case, with all BMS components + a 3 Year Warranty, assembled here in the U.S. and serviced here in the U.S. by Americans who need jobs.


Continued from here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...vering-orders-anymore-p182397.html#post182397

SE cells are rated 3C continuous and higher pulsed. I've pulled 5C from mine on occasion. With 100Ah and larger cells that can be plenty. Yes, you offer a lot of stuff with the batteries, some of it not necessary, especially with larger Ah cells. Yes I am very satisfied with the performance and price of these cells. Of course I'd like them to be even better, and even cheaper, but very often good enough is good enough. Your cells are simply not practical for most people. As far as your false patriotism, you cells are not made here in the U.S. any more than mine are.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Continued from here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...vering-orders-anymore-p182397.html#post182397
> 
> SE cells are rated 3C continuous and higher pulsed. I've pulled 5C from mine on occasion. With 100Ah and larger cells that can be plenty. Yes, you offer a lot of stuff with the batteries, some of it not necessary, especially with larger Ah cells. Yes I am very satisfied with the performance and price of these cells. Of course I'd like them to be even better, and even cheaper, but very often good enough is good enough. Your cells are simply not practical for most people. As far as your false patriotism, you cells are not made here in the U.S. any more than mine are.


True, and never claimed our Cells were made here either. They are made in Taiwan (not China) and we bring them here and assemble the complete Plug & Play Packs here in Danville, Virginia. Not false patriotism - just real jobs for people here that need those jobs!

Your Cells may work fine for you but their true rating is 2C and while they may be capable of pulling 5C - ours are capable of pulling 10C or 20C which is important for acceleration if you are concerned about high performance?

We don't offer anything that is NOT necessary and if you are informed you will find out the hard way that other companies don't really know what IS necessary.

You get what you pay for.

Dh


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A123's can do 40C, so what? I don't need 40C, or 20C. I can hit 65 mph in second gear and do most of my driving in second at less than 3C. I got what I paid for, an affordable pack that does everything I need. I assembled my own pack, without a BMS that I didn't need. Nice thing about large sized prismatics is a few ah's difference between cells doesn't matter, especially if you bottom balance the pack and stop charging when the first cell gets near full. A number of us are running without a BMS quite successfully, though I wouldn't try it with smaller cells such as yours, A123, Headway, etc.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> A123's can do 40C, so what? I don't need 40C, or 20C. I can hit 65 mph in second gear and do most of my driving in second at less than 3C. I got what I paid for, an affordable pack that does everything I need. I assembled my own pack, without a BMS that I didn't need. Nice thing about large sized prismatics is a few ah's difference between cells doesn't matter, especially if you bottom balance the pack and stop charging when the first cell gets near full. A number of us are running without a BMS quite successfully, though I wouldn't try it with smaller cells such as yours, A123, Headway, etc.


*Good for you! * For others looking for smaller volume, higher energy density, and lighter weight with complete BMS our product fits their needs. Everyone has different requirements and different budgets 

DH


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Indeed, and there are more of us with modest budgets and performance needs. The whole point of this discussion, at least my part of it, has been to point out that cheaper, "good enough" cells, have their place and are more in demand than higher priced higher performance cells. Just as many would love to have a Tesla but a Leaf is more likely to be in our garage and is really more likely to better meet our daily needs.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Indeed, and there are more of us with modest budgets and performance needs. The whole point of this discussion, at least my part of it, has been to point out that cheaper, "good enough" cells, have their place and are more in demand than higher priced higher performance cells. Just as many would love to have a Tesla but a Leaf is more likely to be in our garage and is really more likely to better meet our daily needs.



Understood, we are a high value niche market proposition. Hopefully we will be able to produce a product for the DIY market, but not right now. Sometimes you have to start at the top and work your way down  Don't take that the wrong way - we tried to make a tier-one product and we have been successful doing that. The next challenge is to take this product and make it more affordable for the DIY market which we are currently working on.

Don Harmon


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's always the hope, and the way technology usually progresses. The good stuff gets better and last years best trickles down to the masses. We're waiting


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's always the hope, and the way technology usually progresses. The good stuff gets better and last years best trickles down to the masses. We're waiting


+1 

I agree


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

and we stil DONT get any price informations...

this is typicaly for Lifebat...

and what about Don Harmon, i thought you were out of Lifebatt...according to this guy named BMI/Armin

the 10Ah cells of Lifebatt cost around 50$ per cells...

so, we all know your 20Ah will not be under 50$ per cells...

why dont you post the price??


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

When I started my BMW EV project Ian from LiFeBatt UK offered me a plug&play pack. The quoted price was 4-6 times higher than the pack I made by myself and had less performance... Maybe things have changed over the last year.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

found out a price:

20Ah cell for around 78$ incl. BMS in a plug&play pack


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's for a single 3.2V 20Ah cell?


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

Because we don't offer loose Cells. Only complete modular Packs. Our new 20Ah Prismatic Packs will be available this summer. Anyone with an application can fill out the Application Form on the website and get a quote back in 24 hours. Don Harmon is the CEO of LiFebAtt, so I don't know where Armin/BMI is coming from

Trying to measure the per cell price by the per Pack price is like measuring the price of a wheel by dividing the price of the car by 4.

DH


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

RoughRider said:


> and we stil DONT get any price informations...
> 
> this is typicaly for Lifebat...
> 
> ...


Armin is with LifeTECH not LifeBATT. Sounds like you are mixing up the two companies, they are not the same, just a similar name, both selling batteries to the upscale market. The prices you quote, or weren't quoted from whichever company you are talking about might not apply to LifeBATT, or the other way around.


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## RoughRider (Aug 14, 2008)

price is comming from DaHormon posted on other forum...


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

Let me clear this up. We do not have a Per Cell Price. We do not sell individual Cells, so there isn't any price for them. We ONLY sell complete Plug & Play new 20AH Prismatic Packs in a series of (5) basic Case designs shown on our website: www.lifebatt.com.

If you are trying to estimate the per cell cost by dividing number of Cells in a Plug & Play module into the price of that module you get a meaningless number - like dividing the number of wheels on a car into the price of the car in order to get the price of one wheel.

As was mentioned above there is no longer any business connection with LiFeBATT, Inc. and LifeTech Energy. As also mentioned we don't publish a Price List because each application has it's own parameters and we prefer to go by the Applications Form available on our website.

No major U.S. Battery makers publish Prices either, like A123, Valence, Altairnano, etc. so why pick on LiFeBATT? At least we offer a line of Plug & Play products which most of the others don't (except Valence)


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Don, the web page looks really cool. Could you post some examples of applications where you use your systems? 

We love pictures, you know...


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Don, the web page looks really cool. Could you post some examples of applications where you use your systems?
> 
> We love pictures, you know...


We can't post any pictures yet on the new 20Ah Prismatic Packs as they are brand new and just going into production now for a July delivery here. Got lots of pictures of our previous XPS Pack applications, but I don't want to advertise our previous association with LifeTech, since we are separated now and this new Line is our own.

We have a lot of pre-orders though and it won't be long before we will be able to publish some very cool projects. Lots of EU racing teams are going with these new Modules.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don Harmon said:


> If you are trying to estimate the per cell cost by dividing number of Cells in a Plug & Play module into the price of that module you get a meaningless number - like dividing the number of wheels on a car into the price of the car in order to get the price of one wheel.


Not exactly. My SE cells came in "Plug & Play" modules in the form of 100Ah cells that I simply wired in series, with the included copper straps. I don't think your batteries come with the cables to connect them together, do they? So I can take my total pack cost and divide it by the number of cells to get per cell cost of the complete pack.


> No major U.S. Battery makers publish Prices either, like A123, Valence, Altairnano, etc. so why pick on LiFeBATT? At least we offer a line of Plug & Play products which most of the others don't (except Valence)


We are "picking" on LiFeBATT for a number of reasons. It should be fairly simple to put a per battery module price for all to see on your website, vendors selling TS, SE/CALB, and HiPower all do this. You can always mention volume discounts if that's something you offer. The smoke and mirror pricing scheme usually means the product is too expensive for most of us. Just because the other overpriced battery vendors have the same policies doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is the DIY crowd, we want to know what a product will do and what it will cost, both are equally important.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Not exactly. My SE cells came in "Plug & Play" modules in the form of 100Ah cells that I simply wired in series, with the included copper straps. I don't think your batteries come with the cables to connect them together, do they? So I can take my total pack cost and divide it by the number of cells to get per cell cost of the complete pack.
> 
> *We can furnish the cables if that is required - and did your SE Cells include any BMS or LVC circuit boards? Did they come with an Aluminum Case with data ports built into the case? Do they have a 3 Year Warranty?* *Can they be serviced here in the U.S.?
> *
> We are "picking" on LiFeBATT for a number of reasons. It should be fairly simple to put a per battery module price for all to see on your website, vendors selling TS, SE/CALB, and HiPower all do this. You can always mention volume discounts if that's something you offer. The smoke and mirror pricing scheme usually means the product is too expensive for most of us. Just because the other overpriced battery vendors have the same policies doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is the DIY crowd, we want to know what a product will do and what it will cost, both are equally important.


*We are not a Vendor, we are a Battery Developer & Manufacturer - hence the distinction here. We reply to all inquiries through our website and there are no smoke and mirrors involved. We like to know who we are working with and what your specific needs are? If you are looking for a complete Plug & Play System from LiFeBATT, you can use this MSRP Price of $1.20 / Wh which includes our P20 (20Ah) Cells, Aluminum Case Modules, full BMS including LVC and Cell Balancing IM, 3 Year unconditional Warranty, Assembled in the U.S., Serviced in the U.S. and Shipped from Inventory in the U.S. starting in July, 2010.

Does that satisfy you JRP3?

DH


*


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don Harmon said:


> We can furnish the cables if that is required - and did your SE Cells include any BMS or LVC circuit boards? Did they come with an Aluminum Case with data ports built into the case? Do they have a 3 Year Warranty? Can they be serviced here in the U.S.?


No BMS, LVC, or Aluminum Case with data ports, none of which I needed, thank you very much. Yes they can be serviced, right here in my garage, by me. Servicing would only entail replacing bad cells. They came with a 1 year warranty, 2 years if used with a BMS, but since they were bought through EVC I'm basically out of luck at this point. However, I don't expect any problems, I've not heard of any SE cells spontaneously failing because of manufacturing defects. For the price of the SE cells I can afford to replace a lot of cells if need be, for a lot less than the cost of a BMS.


> We are not a Vendor, we are a Battery Developer & Manufacturer - hence the distinction here. We reply to all inquiries through our website and there are no smoke and mirrors involved. We like to know who we are working with and what your specific needs are? If you are looking for a complete Plug & Play System from LiFeBATT, you can use this MSRP Price of $1.20 / Wh which includes our P20 (20Ah) Cells, Aluminum Case Modules, full BMS including LVC and Cell Balancing IM, 3 Year unconditional Warranty, Assembled in the U.S., Serviced in the U.S. and Shipped from Inventory in the U.S. starting in July, 2010.
> 
> Does that satisfy you JRP3?
> 
> DH


Yes, thank you. Was that so hard? Putting it in perspective to recreate my SE pack with your cells it would cost me more than three times as much, and at that price I simply could not justify my conversion. I won't get three times the range, it would in fact be the same or close to it, any cycle life differences are unknown at this point, and I'd probably get a little bit better performance from your pack, but not three times as much. For only double the price of my pack I could double my range and improve performance by cutting C rate draw in half, as well as extending pack life with shallower discharges and the lower C rate draw. I'm sure there is a market for your cells but without some major price reductions I'm afraid the DIY crowd won't be a large part of your customer base. Which is fine as we really aren't your target audience at this point.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

This is probably true. We typically find our product is more for the High Performance Racing Car crowd who find the value proposition worthwhile because they need high C Rate, small battery space, and light weight as well as a total BMS solution built into our Modules. They can' t just add more low C Rate Thundersky Cells which create more volume and more weight to get the same performance that our solution delivers.

Hopefully, prices will be coming down as more volume production comes on line, and the overall market improves?

Don Harmon


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes, I'm all for it. One other way would be a performance improvement in C rate and density to larger sized prismatic cells which would force prices down across the board. I'm watching Ecolocap's new LithiumX product which promises exactly that at a lower price point. If they don't do it someone will.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Not going to make any comments about pricing, but why does Don keep pointing out the cells are Taiwanese and not chinese?, as if this is a big thing. 

At least here in the UK, Taiwan has exactly the same reputation for being quite able to make crappy products as China does! I don't understand why you think this is an advantage. 

(Both China and Taiwan can and do also produce some very high end quality stuff also I would add)


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

favguy said:


> Not going to make any comments about pricing, but why does Don keep pointing out the cells are Taiwanese and not chinese?, as if this is a big thing.
> 
> At least here in the UK, Taiwan has exactly the same reputation for being quite able to make crappy products as China does! I don't understand why you think this is an advantage.
> 
> (Both China and Taiwan can and do also produce some very high end quality stuff also I would add)


I can't deny your last statement, however, we had a big problem with our first Cells that we started making in Taiwan and they were great Cells (Cylindrical). Then our partner company in Taiwan decided to send production to China on these Cells and purchased some serious Testing equipment which was installed in Taiwan to test the Cells coming back from the China mfg. This mfg. in China is well known, not a small player. 

When the containers of Cells came back they were QC Tested in Taiwan and the failure rate was close to 40%. Long story, but from my research there are some fundamental QC problems with Chinese battery makers especially the smaller ones and even some of the larger ones. In order for a company in the U.S. to acquire top quality Chinese batteries, you better have a million dollar order in your pocket or you won't even get an appointment with the top quality mfg.

Many product that you find being hawked by vendors or on internet sites is often factory rejects or worse black market stuff that somehow slipped out the backdoor of a big factory. Often the powder is questionable ( we only use Phostech Lithium powders) and the Chinese sometimes skip the curing process (21 days). I guess they figure theirs will cure on the boat going to the U.S.? The Chines BMS is often a joke or considered a throw away item. 

So, there are profound personal reasons for making the comment, and until you have walked in my shoes you can't understand. It's not an easy business and one must be careful or you can get blind-sided at any turn of events.

Don Harmon


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes, I'm all for it. One other way would be a performance improvement in C rate and density to larger sized prismatic cells which would force prices down across the board. I'm watching Ecolocap's new LithiumX product which promises exactly that at a lower price point. If they don't do it someone will.


From what we know there is a direct correlation to performance C rate which seems to affect the size of the prismatic cells. It's easier to improve these characteristics in smaller ones, and very hard to do it in the larger ones. That is what our scientists tell us. You can make a very big prismatic cell with higher Ah, but you get much lower C rates. Problem with Ecolocap and other experimental technology is the fact that if often takes 5 - 7 years before it makes it out of the laboratory and into commercial production (if ever)?

Don Harmon


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes it is a balancing act between capacity and discharge rate. Ecolocap has done independent testing and is talking about building manufacturing capacity, but we won't know until it actually happens. Frankly a 100Ah cell with a constant C rate of 5 or 6 would be good enough for most applications if the price was right, and we aren't far off from that already.


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Yes it is a balancing act between capacity and discharge rate. Ecolocap has done independent testing and is talking about building manufacturing capacity, but we won't know until it actually happens. Frankly a 100Ah cell with a constant C rate of 5 or 6 would be good enough for most applications if the price was right, and we aren't far off from that already.


Well, like I said, we can't celebrate until we get there now can we? Look at Eestor - they have been promising a working prototype for 12 years now and never deliver. Trust me, going from guys in lab coats to a real production line with guys in gimme caps, is a trick that is very hard to pull off. 

As opposed to where LiFeBATT is now - already manufacturing perfectly good 20Ah LiFeP04 Prismatic cells which will be available in complete Plug & Play Modules by July, 2010. We might see something if we are lucky from Ecolocap by July, 2013 if they survive that long?

It takes over a year to design and mfg. the type of equipment that is needed in this business to mfg. high quality cells such as shown below. You don't go from the lab to the market without a long and tortuous trek through the "valley of death" to get there.

DH


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I like the machine!


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

MN Driver said:


> I like the machine!


Yes, these machines are made in Japan and they were designed by our own battery Scientist. Here is another view.


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## lapwing (May 8, 2009)

Don Harmon said:


> ...............
> 
> As was mentioned above there is no longer any business connection with LiFeBATT, Inc. and LifeTech Energy. ..........


What does this mean, from a *warranty stand point,* for all those loyal customers who bought cylindrical cell filled packs from your company Don? Who provides the service and support now there is no long a connection?


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## Don Harmon (Jun 18, 2008)

lapwing said:


> What does this mean, from a *warranty stand point,* for all those loyal customers who bought cylindrical cell filled packs from your company Don? Who provides the service and support now there is no long a connection?


LiFeBATT USA has been providing all warranty service / repair on any packs we sold prior to changing our line over to 20Ah Prismatic Cells. 

Don H.


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## arddea (Jan 23, 2010)

Nice machine!

But you seem to need a better machine so you can compete.

For a 32Kwh 320V pack with BMS 120+/-30M range=
TS ~$18K (100X .5C N 3C P cells)
Calb~$21K (100X .3C N 4C P cells)
Headway ~ $21 - 25K depending on BMS redundancy / arrangement (1000X 5C N 15C P cells)
LiFeBATT ~ 38.4K (32,000Wh * $1.2).

Your system is over double that of the pack for a 100KW AC Drive train needs. You make no specification on the C ability. A Headway pack would be able to easily deliver 400KW at 300V. What makes yours worth double?


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