# recycle trashed batteries?



## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

Ok heres my Idea, I can scrounge a motor, and a controller(or find a sweet deal with patience), and I can live with a 12V battery for my accessories, and no unessentials for a bit. Unfortunatly I cant afford, or really scrounge (In the common sense) X number of working batteries, and espically not working ones that I would need.

I can more then likley find batteries that are used, and half dead, if not more, and get to work... But...

Is there anyway chemically, or electrochemicaly, or whatever to restore a deep cycle battery to its normal, or almost normal performance?


Its my understanding that a classical dead battery really isnt dead, but its electrolyte has formed crystals, and is no longer very conductive. The plates can get used up as well but not very fast or as long (lead is reused, so its somewhere -- right?)

And along that line, I plan to make some sort of computer controlled battery managment system. Technically I want to take out my cars computer and reuse almost every guage I can (Like convert the fuel guage to run off of some sort of algarithem, check engine light for misc failures, and warnings, etc) So assuming my first stage is a battery charger and a load (I'm thinking a 100A adjustable heat sink... Maybe some resistors in a can of liquid? (May even get an RF dummy load for that, and some method to controll and monitor the load similar to my super brain 989 for my heli batteries  )

That would (in theory) allow me to test and pick batteries assuming I can find some source that will let me take batteries and return the ones that need to be recycled by a recycling center  -- I figure 2-3 days of phone calls should yeild me a source or two (I'm in south eastern VT incase anybodys got a good idea of where to look )


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe this thread would be a good place to start a list of possible sources for used batteries.

Of course used batteries are NOT ideal, but the price is right and it's a good place to get started at least.

I have heard of people getting batteries from Telecom, where the utility people have to replace power backups at Cell Phone towers.

I have also heard that batteries in airplanes, by law, need to be replaced at set intervals, doesn't matter if they are in perfect condition or not. I know a guy who got two big 24V NiCads this way.

I also e-mailed my local power company guy, asking if he knew of any sources for batteries. No word back from him yet.


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## RadioJohn (Feb 11, 2008)

Hi Folks,
I seem to remember reading about a problem with Lead acid batteries called SULPHATION, and I had a tube of tablets to put into the filler holes that was supposed to fix this chemical problem. I think the battery I tried to fix was "too far gone" and the test was inconclusive.
So mayby there is some sort of layer of lead sulphate that forms on a battery's internal electrode surfaces - particularly if it has been stored without being charged - or just kept stored for too long.

Anyway, it's good top find the forum, I have a beginners question concerning the choice of car for conversion... so I'm still looking around at present.
(I have a Mazda 323 that I can either keep or get the scrap-man to take away).

Best regards
John


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

Finding a source for used batteries is as close as your local Uninterruptible Power System (UPS) Service Tech, like me. We do a lot of change-outs during the year. I just swapped 10 Power PRC-12150S's. Even though they were 7 yrs old the lowest CCA was 934, highest was over 1100. Often we get to "recycle" them on our own without our employers being involved. They've been bringing .20/lb but that is coming down. Check with the local scrap yards or do a search for UPS Service. I know of a local Dallas Co. that's in the process of replacing over 2500, (yes two thousand five hundred) 12v 150Ahr and they are all going to scrap, most are only 3-4 yrs old and probably still very hot. I've asked them to take a few back to their office for me and I'd pay the going rate.


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

To anybody who would know, would it be possible to take a battery appart, and physiclaly scrap or otherwisee remove the sulfation? (I couldnt think of that term when i first posted it ;p so thanks radiojohn)

I doubt that any consumer available 'pill' can solve the problem in the first place, otherwise why not include it standard? a 2-3 times life cycle (as ive seen) for ~$20 means the battery manufacteur can double to tripple the price of the battery, citing that specifiically. Saves them money, dosnt cost users (Usuually industrial) that much more, etc...

Looking more into a load and charger circuit i can make that I can use to test batteries, thinking of making a dummy load with a hanger in a can of some sort! Apparntly that can be up to 90A draw (from forkenswift) some control method should mean its adjustable  thats the hope/plan anways, still reading on alot of varied subjects, but for what its worth i plan to buy some if not all the parts soon, and test a battery -- worse comes to worse my cars starting battery (still under warrenty, and wont be needing it after the warrenty expires anways! -- shouldnt have an ICE that long)


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I have been toying with the idea of taking apart one of my deep cycle batteries that is no longer under warranty, just to see what went wrong with it.
Most that I have go bad were only on one cell. 
When I was kid a neighbor used to take the old tar tops apart and repair them.
They also used the case for a home plating acid tank.


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

sorry mjohnes i didnt see your post before i posted mine, Will def look into that!!! Awesome tip thanks!!

Coley, if you do can you take some pictures post some info etc, etc... I'm thining a manual scraping may be all thats needed (for the worst batteries -- Somthing I may do worse comes to worse if it can be safley done (the catch  ))


As far as battery testing, found a variable PWM circuit that with a load (in my case will be a wire coat hanger in a can of distilled liquid, or some sort of oil -- got used motor oil  ) Figure that with a multimeter will yeild me some sort of testing platform (which i plan to automate via computer (got an L400 just sitting doing nothing (except being responsible for all the network traffic, and such - bah, nothing) 

A decent charger, and im set for testing!

I'm getting really excited about this, trying to keep it under a really tight budget, really really tight... so tight i Just may read up on PWM and build my own controller (not sure yet though, depends on $, sometiems its cheaper to buy em prebuilt & new!)

I need to start putting a log togeather for others if they wana follow me, hope it dosnt take as long as forkenswift though -- im inpatient somtimes.


Actually just thought of somthing, theres an EV somehwat near me that ive yet to see advertised (called the guy about his motor, when he told me about the batteryless car) I'm converting the car I have irrespective of it being my only car -- becuase its got alot of sentimental value to me.. and the engine, well its starting to be more costly in parts and fluids then the normal consumable -- fuel.

Thanks for all the info!

I will definitly be making a few phone calls after I've got some sort of test bed done. I'm sure companies might not all jump at the chance to sell batteries to an indivudal for at-recycle rates, but I can always pay a little extra if I can pick and choose 

EDIT: Will ask on my ham band if motor oil would work, probibly depends on how conductive the old oil is.... (if googling turns up nothing, because its here used and free, but I'ld need to claim it in a day or so, before my roomate takes it to a place to dispose/recycle it)


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## mjones (Jan 19, 2008)

When load testing batteries the load element(s) get(s) really HOT. Not sure if it would cause motor oil to reach flash point but I'm not sure I'd use something flamable to disperse the heat. I believe they switched to mineral oil in the big transformers after PCB was banned. Of course they are sealed and have external cooling tubes. 
My employer purchased some pre-made Ni-Chrome coils for a load bank he made. They were rated for 200A/12v. I used 8 of them in a bank that could be seriesed or paralleled and would do 100A/200A/400A with 48V. Both units used cooling fans rated for the same voltage as the battery under test. A bit hard to do if you are testing single cell (2V) batteries. Ni-Chrome wire is available from several sources. I bought some and wound my own coils for a project I never finished. I have some of both coils and can take pics and check dia/gauge and post later. Like any conductor it has a specific ohm/ft so all you do is measure the length and wrap it around something tubular. I made a hand crank winder to do mine. I guess the coat hanger element would work, they are cheap and plentiful, so who cares if you burn a few up.


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

Thats prettymuch what I was thinking with the hangers.

As far as the oil, Youve got a good point... I'm just sceptical about using water I figure with the heat and everything it will kill the wire fairly quickly... Will have to research more...


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## RadioJohn (Feb 11, 2008)

IDEA for building a BATTERY TEST LOAD

The concept of a testing load for batteries is interesting, for testing the output of my ham radio transmitter I use a device called a "dummy load" one design is like the one described in this thread by SIMY - it sound like the one that appears in my old ARRL Handbook as a "cantenna" 'coz it's built into an old paint can, which in turn holds the non flammable liquid to cool the under-rated resistor.

There is an extra ssue for radio tests - the need to stop the radio frequency energy from "escaping" - hence the screening properties of the old can.
But for batteries all we need to worry about is the heating effect of the D.C. (direct current).

So yesterday I took apart a broken domestic heater.
It was a 240volt 1000W heater, the heating element is made from a resistive strip that is held in a mica insulator in a comb design. If we could figure how to put metal shorting bars between the correct places on the heater wire we could make a safe 1000W test load.

With the shorting bars in the correct place, I figured since there were 61 loops of wire in each row, two rows for 240V it works out that each loop would have about 2 volts across it - so 6 loops for 12V.
If all of the element could be connected up as parallel groups of 6 loops we would have a 12V heater at 1000W - simple math says there is a current drawn of 1000/12 = 83Amps approx.

Maybe if you really wanted to be clever you could dynamically switch segments of the heating element using power FETS ( or multiple power FETs) as part of your battery condition tester.


Of course the heater will get hot - but that's what it is designed to do.

Have fun
John.


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

Well thanks John, Yeah thats where I got the idea actually =) Dont have my old books but still got the license KI4YHE here, Want extra but thats alot more reading ;P

I'm thinking a can would be easier, and cheaper with a little coat hanger, Havnt decided yet. I'ld like to make some sort of driving circuit so I can adjust the amperage the battery is pushing out. That way I can test them under realistic (eg harsh) draw then monitor the voltage drop.


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## dave arthur (Dec 16, 2007)

hi, ime in the happy position of having all the scrap batterys and no idea ? i got 5 off yuasa 12v x35amp from a UPS 4 were i think ok, they spun my motor over, ive also got 14off 12v deep cycle from small pedestrian fork lift truck, i think they are as you say changed periodically rather than as required always usefull costings, in the uk scrap batterys are £100 per ton at the moment, my batterys are costing nearly £10 each for 100 amper and 25kg so its well worth a bit of time and effort, some are past it but a few ran my 36v 6kw motor 10 mins plus each, but i still dont realy know if there really any good. a couple of days after charging a few are recording 12.6v these i think are the best ones, but i put 3 of them on my elec motorcycle, and only got a couple of miles, i then checked voltage and one of them was under 11v but the other 2 were over twelve,what i would like to do is proper load test if i knew how, say 100 amp say run each battery at 200 amps for say 15 min i would think that would be a good test. but i dont realy know, but i can waste a lot of time, if ime not carefull and although i cant afford to spend a fortune on batterys, it just might work out cheaper in the long run. you talk of making a cheap dummy load tester with a coat hanger wire ect, in a can exactly how? ie 3" or 3ft curled up in a one gallon can more wire higher load or less, are the main holding pins for this device also below the waterline/ oil line, as you can see ime clue-less, could sombody give more detail please. from what ive read i dont want to destroy them by discharging to low, if i keep it on load until volts drop to x ( whats the majic number please) finally having just got the thing on the road i then had to start paying out for proper bits ie a controller, i couldent justify the cost if it wasnt going to get on the road,
all i had was the old but very well made original flt contactor, i removed the
coil fitted a strong spring to keep OPEN then fed the throttle cable through the centre ie twist to close, simple cheap great, WARNING they weld shut,
you have been warned, with the controller, the contactor pulls in before you pull away, no high amps, and you dont switch off til you stop, but ime still
fitting an emergency kill switch, pos via my redundent clutch lever, or foot operated, would give me and you that bit of extra safety on the road, and also in the event of maintainence or a short. yours dave arthur


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I bought a handheld load tester on eBay for $19.95, that works well for me.

I also have an old carbon pile tester, like Sun used to sell for garages.

Are you trying to run the battery clear down, or just get an idea of the condition?


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## BenNelson (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the general idea is just to be able to check a battery under load to get an idea of its overall condition. To see if it is worth taking and using or not.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Yep, that is what I use the new handheld for.

I also use it after a charge cycle to see if they all came up good.

The last time I had one go bad, it took out a new one also.

Anyone ever study where, in a pack, the best batteries should be?

Should one slightly weaker be on the pos +, end of the pack or the neg- end?


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

Coley said:


> Anyone ever study where, in a pack, the best batteries should be?
> 
> Should one slightly weaker be on the pos +, end of the pack or the neg- end?



I wouldnt think it would matter where they are in a pack, Its my understanding (I may be wrong here though) That the pack itself is going to try to equalize its charge, so nomatter where the weaker or stronger ones are, the stronger ones are gona try to strengthen up the weaker ones.

Unless they are isolated somehow.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Today I took the oldest battery our if my car and cut a cell top section out and cut one end off of it.

What I found was a lot of lead mush in the bottom, plates with holes in them(falling apart) and the neg plates with sulfate on them in a porous plastic bag.

I took some pics, but don't know about putting them on here.

The lugs between cells are heavvvvy. 

But, no crystals that wouldn't go into suspension, just gray mush.

Oh, even with the acid all out, it still has some kick, so be careful if you take one apart on a metal bench....


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## simy (Jan 26, 2008)

go how you normally reply, then click go advanced (assuming your doing/did a quick reply) scroll down in additional options, and find manage attachments...




Sounds like that batterys defintly at the end of its life, was it a deep cycle, or a starting battery?


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

These are the pictures of the inside of a 24MDC, Farm and Fleet Marine Deep Cycle battery, that has 550 CCA.
This battery served me well for over 2 years, even with my iffy homemade chargers.

I took out one cell and made a clear plastic box for it. I thought I would try some of the battery restore/charging techniques on it and be able to see if they helped.


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