# [EVDL] EV Business?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
What type of businesses have been successful?
Where will growth and demand be in the future?

It seems many have tried a business converting cars to electric,
doesn't seem to have worked with a few exceptions.

Selling parts to DIY conversions? 
Certainly some have been successful.

Design and manufacturing components? 
Seems a tough road, chinese competition.

Design and sell Kit Car or plans??
Seems a high-risk, low-reward limited market?

Plug-in conversions for Prius?
Now have "big boys" in this business with A123.
I'm thinking this is the best opportunity right now,
with the Prius coming off warranty and the old batteries wearing out, it there will be good demand for plug-in conversion?

What does EVLD say?

Jack Murray
Nimble Motorsports


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jack: I think you and I were separated at birth. I have just been
thinking about this (though I'm no business man ;-)

I've been looking at the Volt, seeing the price for a compact 'Chevy'
and thinking the following:

* I can get a fairly low mileage Gen III ('04-09) Prius for $15k
or less (I have an '07 for 14k)
* I can get an Enginer 4kwh pack for $4k, 20 mile range at 35mph
or less speed.
* 50% of Americans drive 25 miles or less a day (80% drive 50)
(this means most folks do city driving, ie, 35mph or
less)

So for less-than $20k (prior to any applicable rebates on the Prius
conversion, and well-below the Volt after rebates/incentives are
applied) I can get a comparable vehicle* to the Volt in terms of
range-extended EV that has long-term real-road worthy experience, has
known long life span.

Plus the Prius is a full-sized car, not a compact. Of course the 2012
Plug-In Prius with a 4kwh pack is due out next year... so not sure how
long the business opportunity will last.

I think that with ample opportunity charging the cost reduction due to
the smaller pack in the '12 Prius combined with it being a full sized
vehicle will give it a significant economic/market advantage over the
Volt IF Toyota keeps the initial price point within the Brand specs
(nobody pays $41k for a Chevy car, let alone a compact).

Now if somebody could find a way to work WITH Toyota to release a
cost-effective retro-upgrade for existing Prii that integrated with a
better user experience (only read about the Hymotion/Enginer, not
experienced) I think that could be a very viable short-term (5-10 years)
EV business.

* Yes, I know a Volt isn't limited to EV-mode at under 35mph, I'm saying
it's just for my personal road use/style and for about 50% of American's
who drive it is an equivalent vehicle.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] EV Business?


I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
What type of businesses have been successful?
Where will growth and demand be in the future?

It seems many have tried a business converting cars to electric,
doesn't seem to have worked with a few exceptions.

Selling parts to DIY conversions? 
Certainly some have been successful.

Design and manufacturing components? 
Seems a tough road, chinese competition.

Design and sell Kit Car or plans??
Seems a high-risk, low-reward limited market?

Plug-in conversions for Prius?
Now have "big boys" in this business with A123.
I'm thinking this is the best opportunity right now,
with the Prius coming off warranty and the old batteries wearing out, it
there will be good demand for plug-in conversion?

What does EVLD say?

Jack Murray
Nimble Motorsports


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>
>Remember that for the average Jill, that $32k Leaf or $41k Volt comes
>with an additional $2k per charging station... one at work, one at home,
>one at the in-laws... with the Leaf it'll be mandatory, with the PHEV
>you can "get by" with 3-prong 120 overnight.

You can charge the Leaf via 120 volts if needed. Takes awhile to fill 
a 100% DOD battery of course.

With typical tax breaks, the Leaf is $25k. In Colorado, it may be 
even cheaper because of state tax incentives, but I don't know the details.

My point was that a PHEV conversion business will likely have a tough 
time once the OEMs come on line. Even if you can beat the OEM price, 
it is really tough for a small company to compete against the 
marketing muscle.

Right now, the PHEV converters are operating in a competition vacuum. 
They are the only available option for the pool of customers. That 
vital advantage will vanish in a matter of a year, maybe less. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> 
> > So for less-than $20k (prior to any applicable rebates on the
> > Prius conversion, and well-below the Volt after rebates/incentives are
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some clever EV-1ers took the charger off the wall, used a 240 plug and long 
cord, and threw the whole affair into the trunk for opportunity charging. Any 
reason one couldn't do that with a Leaf?

Business idea: Low cost controller for a sepex motor. Control the field and 
armature startup with a < 100 Amp controller. Switch on the armature with a 
contactor once it is spun up. Integrate with automatic tranny electronics. 
Disadvantage: It would idle the motor. Advantage: Way cheaper, high Amps, and 
regen.




________________________________
From: "Childress, Matthew" <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 2:00:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?

... $32k Leaf or $41k Volt comes with an additional $2k per charging station... 
one at work, one at home, one at the in-laws... with the Leaf it'll be mandatory 
...

... the Leaf requires special infrastructure to opportunity charge 
*effectively*. ...



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Remember that for the average Jill, that $32k Leaf or $41k
> > Volt comes with an additional $2k per charging station... one
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Remember that for the average Jill, that $32k Leaf or $41k Volt comes
> > with an additional $2k per charging station... one at work, one at home,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 14 Oct 2010 at 14:14, Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > My point was that a PHEV conversion business will likely have a tough time
> > once the OEMs come on line.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray wrote:
> 
> >
> > I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jack and Everybody,

This is Audrey. I thought about just this opportunity about a year
and a half ago. First I went online, did some research, discovered it
took very little time, tools, and know how to do. Something an OLD
Lady could do to help out a meager EV Conversion business. Then I
called the company, and discovered that I would have to take a 6 week
training course in California. Fine, I am willing to do that.
Unfortunately, even with all of that, that I was willing to do, it
would be of no advantage, because a local business here in Florida has
the whole of Florida tied up. No one else can get or install their
package (batteries) here in the state of Florida.
But perhaps no one in the last year or so has done that in your state
Jack.. and it might be a worthwhile and profitable opportunity for you
or maybe you could make your OWN kit and package.

Audrey Martin


Plug-in conversions for Prius?
Now have "big boys" in this business with A123.
I'm thinking this is the best opportunity right now,
with the Prius coming off warranty and the old batteries wearing out,
it there will be good demand for plug-in conversion?

What does EVLD say?

Jack Murray

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray wrote:
> > I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
> > What type of businesses have been successful?
> > Where will growth and demand be in the future?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Marion Hakanson wrote:
> > I make a decent salary, but haven't felt able to buy a new car since
> > about 1990... Now that I've studied up on conversions a bit, I find
> > that what I want is still out of my price range. I think I'll be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Indeed, I'm aware you don't have to buy the charger and can charge on
120. But I'm specifically talking the average Jack or Jill. In that
case

Do you think that the average car salesperson will:

a) be as aware of it as we are?
b) if they are aware, wish to lessen their commission by
informing the customer?

The pitch will sound something like this: "Here is the LEAF, here is
the special charging station you need to have us install in your garage
that will charge it full overnight or while you're sitting at your desk
at work (8 hours). You can charge it on 120, but it will take all day
(20 hours)..."

I understand that this 20-hour figure is from an "empty" battery pack.
But Jack/Jill won't.

While you and I (and most on this list) are willing to put up with some
inconvenience until a better/cheaper option is available, I wonder what
Jill will do? I wonder what using a non-Nissan charger will do to your
warranty. Hmm... 

The charge times are from NissanUSA's website after a googling of "leaf
home charging station" 

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:25 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?



> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Remember that for the average Jill, that $32k Leaf or $41k Volt comes
> > with an additional $2k per charging station... one at work, one at
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Since when is the Volt a compact car and the Prius full-sized?

Volt is 4-passenger, Prius seats the standard 5. Further, the compact
label comes not from me, but from
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-10/never-mind-naysayers-chevy-vo
lt-excellent:

"By now, the car has become a political football, a proxy for anger
over the 
bailout of GM and Chrysler and a symbol of the future of the
American auto 
industry. That's a lot of baggage for a compact car to carry" 

"The Prius is roomier than the Volt"

> The Prius is simply not a comparable vehicle, range extended or not.

As I outlined, the vehicles are comparable based on the real-world NEEDS
I spec'd: both meet the daily use needs of 50% of drivers in the US, and
in that sense a *plug-in* Prius is not only comparable but economically
favorable to the Volt. Responding to the specific criteria that was
brought up:

Unless you live on the moon, you do not need a "rocket" to get around
town and back and forth to work, pickup the groceries, etc. 

Further, with effective opportunity charging you do not need a greater
all electric range: again, 50% drive 25 miles or less, which means for
many it could easily be sub-35mph trips and a 15 mile all electric range
and a "a standard work day" charge time (6-8 hours) on 120V/20A.
Staying under 35mph also helps avoid accidents and speeding tickets in
town.

Less-than 20% of us need 40 all-electric miles *per charge* at 60+ mph
on a day-in-day-out basis. 

BetaMax and VHS were not comparable technologies: BetaMax was far
superior in quality. But VHS met the NEEDS better and was more
economical. Looking to solve real world problems hindering adoption by
the masses, special charging infrastructure and expensive battery packs
that price vehicles out of the mainstream's market during an economic
down-turn "forecast to last" are two major problems -- it's irritating
when you become educated on the data of how fast and how far people
DON'T drive on a daily basis to hear people in the industry spout "we
need charging stations" "we need longer range." The infrastructure is
there, and 100 miles per charge is unnecessary.

I think that if you approach it from a marketing standpoint "Chevy Volt
give you a price jolt? Scared of Nissan LEAFing you stranded without
juice? Buy a late-model converted PHEV Prius for half the cost!"
Combine that with superior customer service and I you'd have a
successful campaign, leveraging Chevy and Nissan's weaknesses to your
advantage. Car dealers know the real margins are on used vehicles.

Note that I'm not against either the Volt or the Leaf, just laying out
possible ways to market/pitch from a small EV conversion business based
on my own experiences and recent thoughts: I've got a 1998 Twike Active
(BEV) and a 2007 Prius (non-plug-in) my wife drives around town. For
under $4000 and a little help from my friends in the EV Club I could
drop in an Enginer 4kwh pack into the Prius and make it a PHEV that runs
on grid electricity most of the time she drives it around town. Or I
could buy a $41k Chevy (LEAF not an option, need long range family
vehicle). In the end, you're right -- there is no comparison between
the two. In our family, and I suspect many Prius families, we are much
more likely to upgrade to a Plug-In Toyota (either 3rd party or 2012)
than a GM. There's a lot of brand loyalty to Toyota.

Heck, as a small EV Business you might actually want to get a LEAF and a
Volt and use them to sell your own products (and strike a deal for
commission on referrals). Let your customers rent each for a week. If
they buy your product within a month or so, deduct the rental from the
cost. You'll probably know more about the vehicles than the local
dealers.

[email protected]

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The best idea I've seen for a low-cost intro EV conversion project is an
eBike. That's an electrified bicycle. Not so good in the elements
(rain, snow, hail), but easy to port upstairs and definitely low cost as
license, title, insurance are not required (many states). Speeds are
low (20mph, by most state laws) but for in-town driving, perfect as you
can take advantage of bicycle lanes.

Both the conversion and your vehicle charging can be done in your living
room. Conversions can be done in a weekend or two. Plenty of punch to
go up hills, and the EV grin definitely applies.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 8:39 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?



> Marion Hakanson wrote:
> > I make a decent salary, but haven't felt able to buy a new car since
> > about 1990... Now that I've studied up on conversions a bit, I find
> > that what I want is still out of my price range. I think I'll be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee 

Well put as usual. What you're describing is best summed up as "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good". That's what made my wife and I decide to just go ahead and get the conversion we could afford. As Jon Glauser recently said "it has the acceleration of a garbage truck" and has few creature comforts but it does the job.

We've had our hassles but I commute with my EV every day and am just coming up on 5000 EV miles. The grin appears quite regularly.

Peter Flipsen Jr

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter Flipsen Jr. wrote:
> > Well put as usual. What you're describing is best summed up as
> > "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good".
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you really want to make a killing in the EV business... come up 
with a "promise the world" type concept, then get a government grant 
and sell stock, and then deliver nothing but paper and news releases. 
Many crooks have made their fortunes this way, and are still walking 
free today. Meanwhile those legitimate businesses that try to do 
right struggle to keep their heads above water. Thus is the world we 
live in..

Sorry if this is sounding political, its not intended to be.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

WOW, this topic has a lot of interest!
G-mail formats them all out to about a dozen pages.

Many of you know I am ready to open a Technical Institute for EV
Technicians. I had had a lot of interested inquiries from possible students
from all over the USA and many other countries. I am seeking a partner with
$30k or several small investors with $10K each, a large return may the
result, perhaps as much as 10 times the investment in three years,if you
have any interest in that please contact me by phone or e-mail off the list.
"Lets talk!"

To the many who speak of buying a $15,000 vehice and adding a $4,000
extrnded range battery pack, then compare it to a Leaf at $21,000 after
rebates, I must ask, WHERE IS THE PROFIT? (excuse the shouting.) Are you
just building one for yourself? because a business suggests a desired profit
after overhead so typical markup from actual cost is 2 or 3 times the cost,
can you sell it for $58,000 or even $38,000 if not you are contemplating a
"Not-for-profit" hobby, that is not a business.

I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the $7,500
Federal credit so it is a lot like $16,000 retail and I include a healthy
profit and overhead in my calculations. (Part of my "Trick" is using the
students to do the labor)and while teaching them how, why, and business
skills to!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
=================================================================


> Jack Murray <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>OK, Bill, what do you think is a good approach?
>I asked originally, what part of the business has been successful?
>It can't be NOTHING. Getting government grants and raising investor 
>capital is the most profitable EV business ?? 

You have to think like the used tow truck dealer. The most 
obvious business path is not where the money is. The key is to find 
an aspect of the EV realm that can make money that is off-center from 
what everyone else is trying to do.

I would not suggest this particular business, because there 
is enough competition right now to make it difficult to enter at this 
time, but the smart move many years ago was the EV parts supply 
business. Like the used tow truck dealer, you can make money by 
selling something to businesses that typically don't themselves make money.


>Frankly, just opening up a car repair shop that specializes in 
>Prius/EV/Hybrids might be a reasonable approach.
>Can't outsource that to China.
>But its a low-risk, low-reward proposition.

The shop itself might not be the right business, but selling 
training (or training supplies) for such a business or profession is 
likely to be very profitable. Selling specialty tools for such shops 
could be profitable.

Don't go for the obvious EV business, but keep it in mind as 
a market _for_ a business. Don't sell cars. Sell things to people 
that sell cars, or to the people that bought cars, or to people that 
want to sell cars, or to people that want to buy cars, or to people 
that fix cars. Perhaps go a step deeper in the food chain and sell 
things to people that sell things to people that sell cars.

I am not a businessman by any stretch of the imagination. I 
have little or no interest in running a business because I find 
dealing with the important details tedious and boring. However, I 
have seen which businesses work, and which ones fail.

Jeppesen did not make his fortune working as a pilot. He 
made his fortune selling his navigational charts to other pilots. He 
made his fortune selling what he _knew_ rather than what he _did._

Bill D. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the $7,500
Federal credit so it is a lot like $16,000 retail and I include a healthy
profit and overhead in my calculations. (Part of my "Trick" is using the
students to do the labor)and while teaching them how, why, and business
skills to!

Dennis,

Are you sure a Conversion qualifies for that $7500 credit? I am pretty sure
that a conversion only is eligible for a 10% credit and up to $4000......


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com 
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 3:23 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?

WOW, this topic has a lot of interest!
G-mail formats them all out to about a dozen pages.

Many of you know I am ready to open a Technical Institute for EV
Technicians. I had had a lot of interested inquiries from possible students
from all over the USA and many other countries. I am seeking a partner with
$30k or several small investors with $10K each, a large return may the
result, perhaps as much as 10 times the investment in three years,if you
have any interest in that please contact me by phone or e-mail off the list.
"Lets talk!"

To the many who speak of buying a $15,000 vehice and adding a $4,000
extrnded range battery pack, then compare it to a Leaf at $21,000 after
rebates, I must ask, WHERE IS THE PROFIT? (excuse the shouting.) Are you
just building one for yourself? because a business suggests a desired profit
after overhead so typical markup from actual cost is 2 or 3 times the cost,
can you sell it for $58,000 or even $38,000 if not you are contemplating a
"Not-for-profit" hobby, that is not a business.

I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the $7,500
Federal credit so it is a lot like $16,000 retail and I include a healthy
profit and overhead in my calculations. (Part of my "Trick" is using the
students to do the labor)and while teaching them how, why, and business
skills to!
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
=================================================================
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Jack Murray


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > I've been contemplating another self-startup in the EV business.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> 
> > Volt is 4-passenger, Prius seats the standard 5.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Douglas A. Stansfield wrote:
> > I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
> > electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the
> > $7,500 Federal credit so it is a lot like $16,000 retail and I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, Gracious Me I only know what I read in the Funny papers! Someone else
said conversions using new parts were qualified. But that credit expires
Dec.31, 2010 anyway so it is not a done deal, Compare my $23,500 to the
leaf at $31,000 (Plus $3000 premium at some dealers!) and to the Volt (Now
known as a plug-in hybrid,) at $41,000 Plus whatever premium Chevy dealers
may ask. Or compare it to the ALTe offering of a $25,000 mid size SUV
converted to electric hybrid for $25,000 more or a total of $50,000 and
expecting to sell all they can produce. and It looks like I may be fair
priced. What do you think Douglas?
Regards,
Dennis Miles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
> > electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the $7,500
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your pricing seems about right to me. I just didn't think a used car that
has been converted qualifies as new since there is a section of the code
that is for conversions. I'm not a Tax Accountant so I leave that up to the
buyer. Since these are credits I think you need to have that much Income
Tax Liability already to make this tax credit "real". If you don't owe any
tax I don't think this is something that the government is going to just
give you a (rebate) money for. Again, I am not a tax accountant so this is
my best guess here. Any Tax Accountants on this list?


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com 
973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS







-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 7:22 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?

Well, Gracious Me I only know what I read in the Funny papers! Someone else
said conversions using new parts were qualified. But that credit expires
Dec.31, 2010 anyway so it is not a done deal, Compare my $23,500 to the
leaf at $31,000 (Plus $3000 premium at some dealers!) and to the Volt (Now
known as a plug-in hybrid,) at $41,000 Plus whatever premium Chevy dealers
may ask. Or compare it to the ALTe offering of a $25,000 mid size SUV
converted to electric hybrid for $25,000 more or a total of $50,000 and
expecting to sell all they can produce. and It looks like I may be fair
priced. What do you think Douglas?
Regards,
Dennis Miles
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Douglas A. Stansfield <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > I am planning to buy a 3 to 5 year old compact, convert to full
> > electric and sell for $23,500 and that will also be elegible for the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>OK; what should I charge for this service? Minimum wage? I'd go broke! I 
>have other work that pays many times more per hour. Or should I charge 
>my regular employment rate? If I did, the cost of my labor would be more 
>than what he saved by buying the cheap supply, which means I wouldn't 
>get the "job".


As usual, Lee saved lots of dollars for EV converters doing things 'on 
a hobbyist budget'.

http://www.evdl.org/pages/iotamods.html

If I won the lottery, I would give Lee a nice big paycheck for his efforts on 
this list!
There are few like him, and I always appreciate his advice and comments on this 
list.
Thanks again Lee for your expert advice and all you do for the EV community!
I can only offer praise for your efforts (kids in college, etc. etc.), and I 
don't play the lottery more than twice a year, but I would give you a big 
paycheck if I won 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,

I have heard exactly this same argument in a totally different realm. I
think it will help illustrate your point.

There are lots of people who think it would make a really great business to
become a masseuse. They only need a fairly cheap table and some training.
Total investment, maybe $500 or 600 and they can go into business. They
aren't the people making money in the massage business.

It's the guy who sells the tables. 

Lots of people buy a table thinking they will get rich. When they decide it
isn't for them, they can't do much else with the table, but the table guy
already has his money. The amount is low enough that he gets paid in cash.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 1:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?


>
>OK, Bill, what do you think is a good approach?
>I asked originally, what part of the business has been successful?
>It can't be NOTHING. Getting government grants and raising investor 
>capital is the most profitable EV business ?? 

You have to think like the used tow truck dealer. The most obvious
business path is not where the money is. The key is to find an aspect of the
EV realm that can make money that is off-center from what everyone else is
trying to do.

I would not suggest this particular business, because there is
enough competition right now to make it difficult to enter at this time, but
the smart move many years ago was the EV parts supply business. Like the
used tow truck dealer, you can make money by selling something to businesses
that typically don't themselves make money.


>Frankly, just opening up a car repair shop that specializes in 
>Prius/EV/Hybrids might be a reasonable approach.
>Can't outsource that to China.
>But its a low-risk, low-reward proposition.

The shop itself might not be the right business, but selling
training (or training supplies) for such a business or profession is likely
to be very profitable. Selling specialty tools for such shops could be
profitable.

Don't go for the obvious EV business, but keep it in mind as a
market _for_ a business. Don't sell cars. Sell things to people that sell
cars, or to the people that bought cars, or to people that want to sell
cars, or to people that want to buy cars, or to people that fix cars.
Perhaps go a step deeper in the food chain and sell things to people that
sell things to people that sell cars.

I am not a businessman by any stretch of the imagination. I have
little or no interest in running a business because I find dealing with the
important details tedious and boring. However, I have seen which businesses
work, and which ones fail.

Jeppesen did not make his fortune working as a pilot. He made his
fortune selling his navigational charts to other pilots. He made his fortune
selling what he _knew_ rather than what he _did._

Bill D. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds like the old joke about making a small fortune farming . . .

You just have to start with a large fortune.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bill Dube
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 11:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Business?

The reason that EV conversion businesses rarely make money is exactly the
reason so many folks want to try to do it.

There are simply too many other folks that passionately want to do it, and
can afford _not_ to make money doing it. A _real_ business doesn't stand a
chance of succeeding when there are countless competitors that are happy to
never make a profit, or to operate at a perpetual loss.

I have long ago lost count of the people that have seriously asked my advice
about starting a conversion business. (Likely ~20 per year, every year.) I
tell them this, very classic, joke:

A fellow in the EV conversion business won the state lottery. A reporter
asked him, "What are you going to do with the million dollars you just won?"
The fellow answered, "I'm going to stay in the EV conversion business until
it is all gone."

There are plenty of potential EV business opportunities, but the conversion
business it the most difficult EV business to make a profit. Pick some other
aspect of the EV realm and you will have a MUCH better chance of making some
money at it.

If you want to _guarantee_ operating at a huge perpetual loss, without even
a glimmer of hope of ever making a profit, become an EV racing competitor.
;-)

Bill Dube'




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Matthew wrote:
> > While you and I (and most on this list) are willing to put up with some
> > inconvenience until a better/cheaper option is available, I wonder what
> > Jill will do? I wonder what using a non-Nissan charger will do to your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> what should I charge? Minimum wage? I'd go broke! Or my regular
> >> rate? Then it costs more than he saved on the cheap supply and I
> >> don't get the "job".
> ...


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