# [EVDL] Making Wheel Motors?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Tom, Why don't you try an induction wheel motor instead? That way, you 
won't have eddy current drag, since, with the magnets, you have full field 
all the time. Electric bicycles take care of this problem by having 
freewheel. I have played with the ideas of making the air gap variable, and 
also using magnets that can be unmagnetized and remagnitized on the go, to 
achieve variable field.

When you look at the world short supply of rare earth elements for magnets, 
it makes better sense to use iron, copper, and aluminum only.

Have you considered the issue of the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight? 
Its better on a car axle to have the motors inboard for this reason. Also 
the problem of two motors in a fault situation that causes the car to go out 
of control. Then, its better to have a differential and one motor. And, so 
on. Dreaming is free. I have always wanted to make a four wheel drive, 
four wheel motor, on a vehicle like a MGTD, mostly for show.

George

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:16:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Watson wrote
> Hi
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that manufactured wheel motors for EV's 
> are just not gonna be produced in North America,...at least not at a 
> price anyone can afford... unless I make them my self.
> 
> I am thinking that if I can make a larger copy the motors from 
> chinese skooters, greater wattage and make a couple of models to fit,
> say older Chev hubs(s-10?), or maby Merc(have you seen the price of 
> older villagers lately? or Ford(F150?)
> 
> I am wondering what wattage to shoot for though... 4 times 2000 to 
> 3000 watts sounds like a good wattage, maby 1500W would be enough? 
> anybody got any ideas on this?
> 
> I think the Neodymium Magnets being used in homebuilt windmills may 
> allow the best size wattage ratio. http://www.reuk.co.uk/DIY-2kW-
> Wind-Turbine.htm
> 
> Anyway I'd love to hear from you all about this! suggestions,
> comments, would you even want something like this avalible?
> 
> Then all we'd need is a controller to take advantage of the 
> independent traction/breaking on each wheel! maby a macintosh for 
> control? lol!
> 
> Thanks!
> Tom
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> George Swartz wrote:
> > Tom, Why don't you try an induction wheel motor instead? That way,
> > you won't have eddy current drag, since, with the magnets, you have
> > full field all the time.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recall Chevy promoting a model of heavy duty truck (in the fall/winter of
2000) that had 4 wheel mounted electric motors. I put in a request to be
notified as they came to market. It was only a couple of months later that I
was notified that the concept had been withdrawn from production. Perhaps
the motor source is still producing? Just a thought, as the prototype had
to get them from a reliable source.



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > George Swartz wrote:
> > > Tom, Why don't you try an induction wheel motor instead? That way,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 15:44, George Swartz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Tom, Why don't you try an induction wheel motor instead? That way,=
> you
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> > This is the typical birth and death of wheel motor cars:
> >
> > 1) Some idiot in upper management mandates that a wheel motor car be buil=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
>I didn't know anyone had gotten one to even run around a track in any
>manner safe or not.

They never say anything publicly because it is embarrassing. 
They just "make it go away" as quietly as possible.

Bill Dube'


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't see a problem with a motor per wheel, but putting the motor in 
the wheel sound like a bad idea. Not only will it make the vehicle 
handle like crap, but it's putting an expensive component in a damage 
prone location. The pothole covered roads out here in the NE would 
beat the hell out of them. Plus, it's not unusual to bend a rim on a 
curb after skiding on a snow covered road.

Sent from my iPhone



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > This is the typical birth and death of wheel motor cars:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are lots of examples of successful wheel motors in all wheel drive 
vehicles. Wheel motors with planetary gear reduction are used in modern 
heavy equipment, with electric or hydraulic motors. Military vehicles use 
electric transmission drives with wheel motors. 100 year old trucks used 
electric wheel motors. Mostly these are slow moving heavy vehicles. I 
believe there were some early low performance cars with wheel motors.

All in all, it is a bad concept from an engineering perspective for reasons 
already stated. I still think it would be a awesome eye catcher and the 
most fun EV project I can imagine to build one.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Roger Heuckeroth


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I don't see a problem with a motor per wheel, but putting the motor in
> > the wheel sound like a bad idea. Not only will it make the vehicle
> > handle like crap, but it's putting an expensive component in a damage
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 18:52, Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Nicolas Drouin


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Roger Heuckeroth
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I don't see a problem with a motor per wheel, but putting the motor in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Kind of noisy, don't to think.

Sent from my iPhone



> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 18:52, Bill Dube <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That might be because the new EMini is using an ACPropulsion system, not
wheel motors.




> Tom Watson-4 wrote:
> >
> >
> > the new mini ev has wheel motors and I havn't heard any complaints....
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Volvo did this. Ford did this. I believe that even Porshe did this,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mitsubishi has a rally car with hub motors....

http://jalopnik.com/cars/alternative-energy/mitsubishis-electric-evo-the-lancer-evolution-miev-122270.php
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050824.001
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/203700/mitsubishi_evo.html





> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > This is the typical birth and death of wheel motor cars:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi EVerybody;
> >
> > Guess IF ya have Deeeep pockets you could use 4 wheel motors from Vex=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder it the rotors are just squirrel cages, or if they contain PMs.



> Jon Bishop wrote:
> 
> > Mitsubishi has a rally car with hub motors....
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> This is the typical birth and death of wheel motor cars:
>
> 1) Some idiot in upper management mandates that a wheel motor car be 
> built.
> 2) The engineer's protests are ignored.
> 3) Marketing touts the concept vehicle to the press.
> 4) They build the prototype at great expense.
> 5) Upper management actually drives the car on the test track and 
> discovers that it handles so badly that it is dangerous. (Exactly as 
> the engineers predicted.)
> 6) Wheel motor prototype car is quietly disassembled and the project 
> is abandoned.
>
> Volvo did this. Ford did this. I believe that even Porshe did this, 
> probably others as well.
>
> Bill Dube' 

I think this is quite true, except there is usually one more step.
5.5 Engineers are blamed and moved or replaced, Upper Management remains 
to repeat a similar project with engineers that can this time.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, but that is not the company that BMW contracted with to produce 
the 500 Minis that they are putting into evaluation next year.



> Tom Watson wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Wheel motors tend to be heavy. So another thought: Perhaps it's possible
> > to use an axial flux motor design, and arrange things so the rotor can
> > move up/down the length of the suspension travel, while the state (which
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Perhaps it's possible to use an axial flux motor design, and
> >> arrange things so the rotor can move up/down the length of the
> >> suspension travel, while the state (which has all the weight and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Exactly, ACPropulsion is providing the drivetrain for the new Emini. The
Mini in the video was a demonstration vehicle by the now defunct PML
Flightlink.


Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> Yes, but that is not the company that BMW contracted with to produce 
> the 500 Minis that they are putting into evaluation next year.
> 
>


> Tom Watson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What I was suggesting is that you mount the stator of an axial motor to
> > the chassis of the car, and the rotor to the axle. Arrange the
> > suspension so the axle and rotor can move up/down. Now you have most of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> What I was suggesting is that you mount the stator of an axial motor to
> >> the chassis of the car, and the rotor to the axle. Arrange the
> >> suspension so the axle and rotor can move up/down.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Yeah! ...
> Can you imagine calling up the tv and papers and then heading down to your local chevy dealer with a truck full of supplies and going in and purchasing an ice vehicle... pulling the wheels off and bolt in 4 wheel motors in their place... removing the ice motor and hauling it to a wreckers(don't forget to pick up the check), along with the gas tank, exauste pipe, muffler, radiator ect! and bolting in a battery pack and controller in their place and up and get in and drive away??
> lol... Now that's what I'm talking about!... 
>
> Sure it would take longer than the media would stand for, but it's a fun concept!
> Tom
> 

Not saying wheels motors can't be done, not saying they they don't have 
their place; small light personal mobility and large heavy slow industrial.

Wheels are kinda like your bumpers to the road, except you use them all 
the time. Do you really want a $5K repair when you miss-judge a curb 
while parking?

Why not move them 1 foot in and use a shaft. The motor can be longer so 
it can be low profile and the worst breakage is the half shaft.
I am imagining/designing an electric motor with a hollow shaft. On one 
end is a single gear reduction made from parts used in auto 
transmissions including the parking pawl. This presents the standard 
shaft and case for a "final drive". This electric transaxle would look 
to the car like an automatic transmission, taking standard half shafts 
on each end. All off the shelf components and not actually tiesd to GM 
or Ford as these parts are now made aftermarket.

Besides, If you could bolt them on that fast, A thief could unbolt them 
that fast. :-(

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not so sure hub motors will ever be light enough to be usefull in a 
normal daily driven EV at typical traffic speed.

I think Ford had the best idea with the Ranger EV where the motor took place 
of the diffrential. It basically had a AC motor, gear reduction and 
diffrential all in one small package. If such a think was built again for 
the masses, it could be used in front or rear wheel drives, or even use two 
for all-wheel. This simplifies the drivetrain to just two short axles and 
four CV joints in an indipendant suspension design and reduces unsprung 
weight to a minimum.

The closest thing I've seen to this is the Azure Dynamics AC24 and 
transmission combo or whatever this is 
http://www.metricmind.com/images/mot2.jpg on metricmind.

Other ideas is to mate a motor directly to a AWD transfer case. On paper it 
looks like the transwarp motors will easily and directly bolt to an NP208 
transfer case assuming you get the GM version and 32 spline. It's 1st gear 
is 1:1, second gear is 2.6:1, has a chain driven planatery diffrential. You 
would need to lock it in 4WD and I'm not so sure you could shift from 1st to 
2nd without coming to a stop.

Stub 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Japanese prototype micro-EV Luciole used wheel motors over 10 years ago, 
apparently with success. However, the information on the website is 
maddeningly scant -- and it also appears that the handling tests were 
carried out on a smooth test track.

http://www.gaura.com/ev/luciole/index_e.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

anybody know anything more about that mini ?
Articles and videos are dated 2006, and PML's site seems to be current with
updates from 08.
What happend to it ?
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

2009/3/22 Dave Hymers <[email protected]>:
> anybody know anything more about that mini ?
> Articles and videos are dated 2006, and PML's site seems to be current with
> updates from 08.
> What happend to it ?

Unfortunately, PML FlightLink went into administration, which put to a
screeching halt any further development. They have now been bought
out, however, and have launched a separate site for their drive system
(www.hipadrive.com), so hopefully in time it will get to be a
larger-scale development and production.

However, they have, in the meantime, fitted their wheelmotors to an
F150 (http://www.hipadrive.com/sema.html), as a secondary
proof-of-concept.
-- 
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
Sent from: Regina SK Canada.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can you expand on this a bit? Looks interesting.



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > Something I built http://www.nimblemotorsports.com/planetary.jpg
> > This weighs 30lbs significantly less than a full transmission.
> > Jack Murray
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> What I was suggesting is that you mount the stator of an axial motor to
> >>> the chassis of the car, and the rotor to the axle. Arrange the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> > How much can it shift though, with the axial flux motor? Even if you
> > got a couple inches of travel it would still require kind of a stiff
> > suspension. Would a couple inches already be pushing it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is an interesting read on troubleshooting wheel motors!
http://www.ebikes.ca/troubleshooting.shtml

The really notable part is here

Shorted Motor Windings (DC mostly)

Having supplied hundreds and hundreds of Crystalyte motors, we've been quite surprised at how well the windings have held up. In fact, even in situations where the motors were used well outside of their rated currents and voltages the motors windings have never been trouble. That said, there have been a few of the Crystalyte DC motors that have had or developed shorts between the windings. You can tell when this happens because there is considerably more drag when rotating the wheel than normal, and the unloaded current draw is higher as well.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, So there may be a problem with a wheel motor locking up when shorted... 

What I want to know is how we can design around this and still create a wheel motor that is light enough, including the safety factors we have installed, for an electric vehicle?

I have already mentioned adding an abs style braking logic to offset the skid steer... this is something that doesn't even have to be part of the unsprung weight.

I would think that making wheel/motor components out of carbon fiber might give the weight advantage needed to approach a solution.

Anybody got any ideas on this stuff?

Thanks!

Tom




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