# [EVDL] J1772 adapter problem



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie...

Look at the Disclaimer... it states very clearly that it is for 240vac ONLY. The J1772 Specs are for 
240vac ONLY, not for 120...

What you are doing is grounding out the Schneider EVSE. It sees the 120vac relay as a ground
fault...

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:22 PM
Subject: [EVDL] J1772 adapter problem


>I just hooked up my new TucsonEV adapter box and encountered the
> following:
> 1) using the Schneider EVSE that works on my Leaf, I hook up the J1772
> connector to the adapter box which is plugged in where I normally
> supply 240vac to my conversion.
> 2) flip the adapter box switch to on
> 3) I hear my charger relay click
> 4) the adapter box green light comes on but only briefly
> 5) the red right is on on the EVSE
>
> I suspect that the EVSE does not like to supply the 120vac power to my
> relay coil.
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny my suspicion?
>
> If that is the problem, can anyone suggest a solution short of
> re-working the relay?
>
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 29 days 13 hours 37 minutes
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I use a wall-wart power adapter that can accept 120 or 240 that outputs
12VDC. Then you just need a 12VDC coiled relay. Problem solved. 

You definitely can't use the ground as a return for 120V through the EVSE.
J1772 regulations require that a fault occur if more than ~25mA passes
through the ground wire. Of course, the manufacturer might be more careful
than that.

-D



> Rush <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Willie...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Daniel Busby wrote:
> > I use a wall-wart power adapter that can accept 120 or 240 that outputs
> > 12VDC. Then you just need a 12VDC coiled relay. Problem solved.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Why don't you test the coil on DC to see what voltage will pull it in? Maybe
a laptop PS will work. They are often 19V or so.



> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:28:10PM -0700, Daniel Busby wrote:
> >> I use a wall-wart power adapter that can accept 120 or 240 that outputs
> >> 12VDC. Then you just need a 12VDC coiled relay. Problem solved.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rush wrote:
> 
> > Look at the Disclaimer... it states very clearly that it is for 240vac
> > ONLY. The J1772 Specs are for 240vac ONLY, not for 120...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What's the relay for? I would assume it's an interlock to help prevent
driving off while plugged in, but feel free to ignore the rest of this email
if that's not the case.

It's been about a dozen years since I worked with the J1772 spec, but I seem
to remember a reed switch in the inlet that would close (open?) when a
charge plug was inserted (whether or not it was energized). Did this make
the jump from the AVCON to the Yazaki? If so, does the Tucson EV box break
this signal out?

The Tucson EV page mentions a proximity switch in the charger end of the
plug assembly, but I don't see how a charger would be in danger of driving
off while plugged into a car .

-Frank
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Could you use a small Euro voltage to US voltage adapter, to convert from
the 240v inlet to 120v relay supply - something along this line?

http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Voltage-Power-Converter-Adapter/dp/B001AHTEEU

Tom Keenan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Willie McKemie <
> I use a wall-wart power adapter that can accept 120 or 240 that outputs
> 12VDC. Then you just need a 12VDC coiled relay. Problem solved. 

Not with a 120 ac coil , what you could do is measure the current of
the coil ( to figure it resistance , ohm's law) ,, probable 200 ma
then get a resistor about 500 ohm if 200 ma and add the resistor in
series with the coil , then when you want to charge on 120 ac you can
short out the resistor with a switch . All could be done with a spdt
switch. Another way would be to use a 120v small light bulb or maybe 2
in series . To big a light , voltage hi on coil to small and bulb
burns to bright.


< I wonder what
would happen if I drove the 110vac coil with 220vac? Overheating, I
guess>

yes it would

Steve Clunn
--



--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> To clarify, the adapter may only be designed for the 240VAC case, however,

The J1772 Adapter Box will definitely pass 120vac equally as well as 240 vac, however the LED will 
just be dimmer, maybe not even light at all.

> the J1772 specs most definitely include provisions for 120VAC. Just not 120VAC and 240VAC at > 
> the same time ;^>

Perfectly right Roger, I stand corrected. It also states that DC charging is under development.

> J1772 allows only for L1, L2, and earth connections; there is no neutral so you cannot derive 
> 120VAC when L1 and L2 are used to supply 240VAC. However, it is quite acceptable to use L1 and L2 
> for 120VAC hot and neutral; this is precisely what the OEM J1772 opportunity charge 'extension 
> cords' do.

That is what I meant to say, thanks for clairifing it.

> If you attempt to power a 120VAC load by connecting it between either L1 or L2 and earth, the EVSE 
> will detect this as a ground fault and will turn off the power.

Right, I couldn't find anywhere in the spec that it actually gives a value for the ground fault 
limit. It states in several places that NEC Article 625 should be followed and that "The electrical 
ratings are similar to large household appliances and specified in Table 1" which again refers to 
Article 625. Does articel 625 contain ground fault ratings?

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You're correct, manufacturers are taking a lower limit just in case.

A part of my last job involved testing the trip limit for this ground fault
for AeroVironment's EVSE. We set our limit between 15mA and 20mA, which was
lower than the UL limits we had to meet. Almost every EVSE I tested (maybe
100) would trip at 16mA +/- 1mA.

The relay might draw a spike of more than 3W. Our EVSE would have it's
contactor open at less than 30ms of a slightly excess current. That's the
UL standard. All it takes is a few milliseconds of spike and that
contactor slams open. Using the ground as a return for anything more than
something like the pilot signal is a waste of time. It's just too easy to
trip the GFI.

-D






> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/22/2011 12:28 AM, Daniel Busby wrote:
> > > You definitely can't use the ground as a return for 120V through the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> It's been about a dozen years since I worked with the J1772 spec, but I seem
> to remember a reed switch in the inlet that would close (open?) when a
> charge plug was inserted (whether or not it was energized). Did this make
> the jump from the AVCON to the Yazaki? If so, does the Tucson EV box break
> this signal out?

Thanks for the comments Frank. I think you that you *might* be referring to the Proximity circuit, 
but not knowing how the Avcon worked, I can't say for certain what you are referring to. Maybe 
someone with some Avcon knowledge will add some info here.

Again, when you mention "does the Tucson EV box break this signal out" in relationship to something 
you "seem to remember", but don't specifically identify, I can't give you any real answer. If you 
could be a little more precise, I'll certainly try to answer you.

> The Tucson EV page mentions a proximity switch in the charger end of the
> plug assembly, but I don't see how a charger would be in danger of driving
> off while plugged into a car .

The charger is not mentioned in the Proximity circuit description at www.TucsonEV.com, the charge 
power is.

In any case - 'Sh*t happens', the proximity circuit is there to protect the EV/PHEV and EVSE in case 
the car should be moved, for whatever reason, while connected. If it is disengaged while charging, 
the current flow from the EVSE is stopped, so that the ends of the plug are not live. So if for some 
reason, the EV/PHEV is moved while charging and the Plug is jerked out, the proximity circuit will 
signal that change in value to the EVSE and open the relay in the EVSE, thereby stopping the current 
flow.

Page 17, "5.4 Proximity Detection - Upon insertion of the connector into the vehicle inlet, the 
coupler shall provide a means to detect the presence of the connector in the vehicle inlet as 
described in Table 7 and shown in Table 8. Detection of the connector will occur at a point where 
damage to the coupler, EV/EVSE, or EVSE should occur if the EV/PHEV were to be intentionally moved"

thanks
Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Jul 2011 at 18:04, Daniel Busby wrote:
> 
> > Using the ground as a return for anything more than something
> > like the pilot signal is a waste of time. It's just too easy to trip the GFI.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > If finding a bulb for the right Wattage is difficult
> > then you can operate the AC coil on DC and use the
> > good old capacitor/resistor trick to pull in at full
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The term "ground" in the J1772 spec is a little confusing to me, so maybe
someone can clarify things. I've always considered "ground" to be the green
wire in my home wiring. That is, it doesn't carry any current under normal
operation, but is there just to tie appliances, electrical boxes, etc. to
earth for safety reasons.
In J1772, however, it appears that the ground (pin 3) is being used as the
neutral to carry the low-voltage 12V and 5V current on pins 4 and 5.

Thanks.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 12:10 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 adapter problem



> On 22 Jul 2011 at 18:04, Daniel Busby wrote:
> 
> > Using the ground as a return for anything more than something like
> > the pilot signal is a waste of time. It's just too easy to trip the GFI.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > On 7/22/2011 8:23 AM, Willie McKemie wrote:
> > > If I had a 12vdc coil relay at hand. I wonder what
> > > would happen if I drove the 110vac coil with 220vac? Overheating, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > I FINALLY got around to measuring the coil power; to avoid taking
> > things apart and then having trouble getting them functional again, I
> > left the relay as is and made a temporary adapter bringing green to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> > > I FINALLY got around to measuring the coil power; to avoid taking
> > > things apart and then having trouble getting them functional again, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello all. I haven't been following this thread in detail but thought I'd
throw the J1772 drawing that I cleaned up from the spec if you need to use
it for reference:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/photos/album/291142935/pic/1780617438/view?picmode=original&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=61&dir=asc

I added the "Voltages on Pilot" from the chart in the spec, as well as the
picture and pinouts of the connector.

HTH,
Mike



> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 05:51:31PM -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
> > > Willie McKemie wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

..... just an OT comment now that I look back over the drawing. Its funny
that the Spec requires the EVSE to be hard wired, yet they show a "Plug to
Source" icon in their drawing.

;-)

Mike



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hello all. I haven't been following this thread in detail but thought I'd
> > throw the J1772 drawing that I cleaned up from the spec if you need to use
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > ..... just an OT comment now that I look back over the drawing. Its funny
> > that the Spec requires the EVSE to be hard wired, yet they show a "Plug to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

J1772 JAN2010 which superceeds J1772 NOV2001.

But yes I see that I got the plug set from the Level 1 diagram (Figure 3)
and not on the Level 2 diagram (Figure 4).

But look at Figure 3 and see that it lists the pinouts for the plug as
either L1 and N OR L1 and L2. this is originally what got my hopes up of
just building an EVSE that plugged into an L1, L2, G type plug, until I
read further that only Level 1 EVSE are allowed to be "Cord and plug
connected".

Mike



> Roger Stockton <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Mike Willmon wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Willmon wrote:
> 
> > J1772 JAN2010 which superceeds J1772 NOV2001.
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > Wired a night light with a 4w bulb into the coil. Light is normal
> > brightness on 120v and noticeably brighter on 240v. Neither actuates
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Steve Clunn installed my Schneider EVSE with a 50amp plug for input; 
same type of receptacle I use for other charging. I can just unplug 
the EVSE and put the receptacle to more rational use if I like.

No stinkin electric inspectors to worry about around here!

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 6 days 56 min minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Some (commercially offered) EVSE adapters get around the
problem of plugging into a standard outlet by following
the convention that as long as the adapter is attached
to the wall and has a J1772 plug for the EV, there is
nothing that dictates what the adapter can plug into,
I have seen NEMA 6-20 but it can just as well be a 15-50
or other "level 2 power" capable standard supply.
The commercial EVSE that I saw was a removable box
(so, it is possible to detach it and carry it with you)
that has a separate mounting plate to make it legal as
EVSE (if I understand the requirements correctly) but
this is a smart way to bend the rules in your favor by
having an EVSE that *you* can mount anywhere you like
near a 240V outlet and even detach and carry with you
to plug into a standard outlet for opportunity charging.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 4:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 adapter problem

Steve Clunn installed my Schneider EVSE with a 50amp plug for input;
same type of receptacle I use for other charging. I can just unplug the
EVSE and put the receptacle to more rational use if I like.

No stinkin electric inspectors to worry about around here!

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 6 days 56 min minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Putting them on a pedestal on wheels is another way around it for your garage applications because it is then not a fixed device 





> "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Some (commercially offered) EVSE adapters get around the
> > problem of plugging into a standard outlet by following
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> > > With a 240vac source, a 60 watt bulb resulted in 220v across the coil.
> > > A 15 watt resulted in 180v. So, I guess 7 watts will be about right.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie wrote:
> > Another success story for Lee Hart light bulb magic!
> 
> I use Lee's light bulb pre-charge in my EV, and it works great!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Another success story for Lee Hart light bulb magic!

> I use Lee's light bulb pre-charge in my EV, and it works great!

Silly, isn't it?  We can come up with amazingly complicated expensive 
ways to do things, when sometimes a light bulb is enough.

Ah, but we're going to ban incandescent light bulbs (someday, soon). 
Then we can buy microcomputers to do everything.
-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In another couple of weeks, you should be able to buy C7 Christmas lights
from any local store 8^).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Willie McKemie
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 1:33 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 adapter problem
> 
>


> Lee Hart wrote:
> > > > With a 240vac source, a 60 watt bulb resulted in 220v across the coil.
> > > > A 15 watt resulted in 180v. So, I guess 7 watts will be about right.
> > >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 6 Oct 2011 at 14:54, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > Ah, but we're going to ban incandescent light bulbs (someday, soon).
> 
> ...


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