# DC Plasma - Build Thread - 10Sec Fiero



## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Looks good John!

Can't wait to see ya on the track, coming this way in 2012? 
You know all NEDRA members are welcome at ECEDRS events. It would be nice to get us all together in 2012.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

View of my battery pack. Its 155lbs 333V nominal LiPo made from off the shelf parts. Standard off the shelf LiPo packs, Elithion BMS and BRUSA charger talking via CANBUS. 6P90S Polyquest/Enerland by A123 Korea.
4400mAhr cells 45C/90C 30 second burst rating. Factory matched.










What I see for gauges., Twin Zillaview session on my netbook. Also, logs data to text file for each trip.











PVI Diagram for DC Plasma for the single Zilla arrangement. Each line represents one of the system components operating windows. You can match components by comparing the windows.










Simulated Dyno charts for inputs to motor. These are calculated from zilla outputs not rear wheel figures. Motor efficiency and driveline losses would need to be added for rear wheel figures. But this is real data for starting off purposes. It has worked well in my drag modeling software that steps by 0.01seconds through a run.










Comparison of one zilla across two motors in series versus two zillas one to each motor.











My little pack put out 830battery horsepower peak on this run from June.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I needed the 1.21 Gigawatts of a lightning bolt to create the 800 battery HP to get down the 1/4 mile in 11.5 seconds. Taken from my truck window during intense thunderstorm over South Bend IN on my way to Power of DC 2011.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I was wondering why I had no power left when my pack was still 10 to 20V above nominal. I had previously thought nominal might be somwhere near the middle SOC. But it turns out that 3.7V LiPo chemistry 3.7 is nearly empty.
I created this chart for recharging at the track. I never charge above 4.15V or discharge below resting voltage of 340V










This is a summary of some settings DC Plasma racing has tried over the 2011 Racing Season. You can see the early trials at 1200A and 1500A. Then some runs at 1800 and 2000A with the total motor voltage limits when the motors were in series with one zilla. Then we switched to two zillas(x2) and kept the motors at 170V the entire run. Then we tried Overdrive(OD) and then finally 1800A, 190V and OD(battery hitting LBV gave the ratty line). Next trial will be 2000A and 190V and Overdrive.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey John,

Nice job on the documentation. I'm almost thinking that this should be in the build thread section of the forum. . . certainly no one can argue with the performance connection. 

So, I guess you finally found a sponsor then. . based on the team name etc.? 

Cheers,
Gary


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for posting graphs.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Thanks for posting graphs.


+1 the graphs are awesome! thank you for sharing those, it really helps those of us that are still learning.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Why is there such a drop in Torque (and thus the HP) after ~3000rpm

Was the amperage pulled back for some reason?

Is it due to the continuous rating of the Zilla? I would have thought the amperage would slowly taper down to the 600 continuous, not just drastically drop like that...if that is indeed the cause...

I was hoping to see the Warp9 peak horsepower to be in the 4000rpm range...we need more peoples dyno's!!! I hope you have started a trend!


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## nedrapr (Mar 9, 2011)

Great going John, getting this up on DIY.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> So, I guess you finally found a sponsor then. . based on the team name etc.?


I wish. Are you talking about "DC Plasma"?
The car name is because I have spent my life working around high power DC Plasma arc furnaces. Not a very common way to melt things. The furnaces pull up to 60,000 amps at 660V. Temperatures up to 4000F.


We are still open to ANY sponsorship.


Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Why is there such a drop in Torque (and thus the HP) after ~3000rpm
> Was the amperage pulled back for some reason?


No this was 2000 amp zilla limit accounting for the flat line, unlimited battery pack power allows a single zilla2K-EHV to provide up to 170V to my Warp9's with the Helwig Brush system from Netgain. The taper is just normal fall off for Warp9 at 170V.
Most other dyno sheets you have seen are battery pack limited and can't push that 2000amps out to full 170V applied to motor. The drop off is what I get from a stock Netgain motor.

I will have a new chart with a little more data using the Helwig brushes. I am putting up to 199V on each warp9 now.




Bowser330 said:


> Is it due to the continuous rating of the Zilla? I would have thought the amperage would slowly taper down to the 600 continuous, not just drastically drop like that...if that is indeed the cause...
> 
> I was hoping to see the Warp9 peak horsepower to be in the 4000rpm range...we need more peoples dyno's!!! I hope you have started a trend!


I only experienced a zilla limit when I had the two motors in series with only a single zilla. It's around 1800amps and 340V. This chart is for two parallel Warp9's with unlimited battery pack and one zilla to each motor.

The taper is due to the motor emf building up. The pack is not the limit on this dyno chart See the PVI diagram. The zilla 2K sets the top line. Without that amp limit the torque would go up to infinity along the that same line.
Note the Impulse9's from White Zombie data peak at around the same rpm.

Metric


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John Metric said:


> I wish. Are you talking about "DC Plasma"?
> The car name is because I have spent my life working around high power DC Plasma arc furnaces. Not a very common way to melt things. The furnaces pull up to 60,000 amps at 660V. Temperatures up to 4000F.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey John,

No, I was talking about "Lonestar EV Racing" I think u mentioned on one of your emails to me. I was assuming/hoping u got a sponsor. I just figured DC Plasma was part of that now. ??

Cheers,
Gary


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> No, I was talking about "Lonestar EV Racing" I think u mentioned on one of your emails to me. I was assuming/hoping u got a sponsor. I just figured DC Plasma was part of that now. ??


Oh, no that is a private team as well. Being in Texas we decided to name it Lonestar EV Racing. You can friend us on facebook.

Still looking for sponsorship for that as well. We are building a Pro-Street Mustang as the next build.


John Metric
DC Plasma Racing on Youtube (please subscribe)
Lonestar EV Racing on Facebook (please subscribe) 
EVAlbum
DIYElectricCar
Pennocks Fiero Forum
979-665-5621


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Some of the main modifications:
> Replacement of the engine cradle with a Lincoln Mark VIII rear end and suspension.


Awesome project. Are those the stock cradle mounts on the fire wall? Did you use parts from the stock cradle and the Ford setup to mount it all?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Awesome project. Are those the stock cradle mounts on the fire wall? Did you use parts from the stock cradle and the Ford setup to mount it all?


I removed the stock Fiero engine cradle and transaxle. It was only rated for about 300Hp motor I figured. I was installing nearly 1500ftlbs of torque.

The Lincoln MarkVIII was also an Independent rear suspension with nearly the same wheel track as the Fiero. And I was very happy to learn it had nearly the same clearance in the frame area. 
I ended up cutting off the stock ears on all four corners. I welded up the rear spots to re-inforce them but they were geometrically right in the perfect spot.
The front ears were rotated 90 degrees and extended they fit right in the same spot as the stock engine cradle mounts.
Here is the Ford rear end compared to the original Fiero rear engine cradle.








I have a load of photographs documenting this if you want to see more.

add firestone airbags too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sure, post em up, I like to see different Fiero mods. I like the idea of the motors in the tank tunnel, originally I was going to put some of my pack in there but I was able to get all my cells in the motor compartment. Your setup would give a lot of battery room above the differential if you mounted the controllers vertically on the firewall, or maybe on the sides under the old vent panels. Not that you need more battery, or the use of the trunk.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Sure, post em up, I like to see different Fiero mods. I like the idea of the motors in the tank tunnel, originally I was going to put some of my pack in there but I was able to get all my cells in the motor compartment. Your setup would give a lot of battery room above the differential if you mounted the controllers vertically on the firewall, or maybe on the sides under the old vent panels. Not that you need more battery, or the use of the trunk.


Oh, yeah, motors in the "transmission/tank tunnel" free up a huge amount of room. I have absolutely nothing in the front. and yes, the controllers are the only thing in the back.
Here is a picture of the six main welds prior to painting.











I swapped the shock position and the sway bar. But they both fit into the Fiero. This is the right wheel.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Some shots of the torque tunnel. This was the old gas tank area. We widened it by one inch on each side. We needed to move the seats out by one inch. The seat stills fits and functions. You hardly notice it.






































This is what fills the tunnel. 199V twin Warp9 with Gear Vendors aux overdrive.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the detailed answer.

How much do you expect the 199V to push the peak power rpm out too?






John Metric said:


> No this was 2000 amp zilla limit accounting for the flat line, unlimited battery pack power allows a single zilla2K-EHV to provide up to 170V to my Warp9's with the Helwig Brush system from Netgain. The taper is just normal fall off for Warp9 at 170V.
> Most other dyno sheets you have seen are battery pack limited and can't push that 2000amps out to full 170V applied to motor. The drop off is what I get from a stock Netgain motor.
> 
> I will have a new chart with a little more data using the Helwig brushes. I am putting up to 199V on each warp9 now.
> ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

John Metric said:


> ...I will have a new chart with a little more data using the Helwig brushes. I am putting up to 199V on each warp9 now....


Which reminds me... it would appear that in exchange for much higher zorch-resistance, the new Helwig brushes seem to wear down at an alarmingly fast rate* - have you noticed a lot more carbon dust around the brush assemblies since switching over to the Helwigs?




* - which I have dutifully filed under the category, "TANSTAAFL"


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Thanks for the detailed answer.
> How much do you expect the 199V to push the peak power rpm out too?


I am not sure that I will find out with my current pack. 199V and 2000amps is 400kW or about 536eHP each motor. See below. You can extrapolate the charts below. perhaps 2500rpm???? I would be well into the nines there and my car will need a major overhaul, roll cage, certification, parachute, competition license, etc....
Another point, I have been finding that the higher my voltage MV setpoint, the quicker I go up in rpm. For example. I can just get to 199V by the end of the track and the car is still accelerating like mad. See data below.

http://www.youtube.com/user/dcplasmaracing?feature=mhee#p/c/1/fIkIWUOEByQ
This has the seat of the pants feeling of actually moving the peak power point up rather than to the right. As I went from 170V to 180 and 190 I found the shift point around the same rpm. I just get there quicker. It may have something to do how the zilla approaches peak voltage.

Some cars, reach their peak voltage and peak rpm about the same time. 
Some cars reach peak power at a point well below peak voltage. For example, here is Waylunds latest curve from mid '10, showing he doesn't reach peak power at peak voltage. Raising his peak voltage wouldn't help with his peak power point.











You can see his peak power is limited by battery sag around 3300rpm. My pack is now suffering at this point as well. My power curve would like to continue up and to the right but I truncate this by controlling the LBV setpoint in the hairball.
I project that if I let the pack sag a bit more or I add some more batteries (26Ahr now) I would push the peak power point up rather than to the right. If it does go right maybe 100rpm? Near the the same 3200rpm as Waylunds Impulse9s. Except we will be making around 850 battery HP at that point.

I would like to re-clarify the dyno sheet projection was using real data, was the input to the motor not the output and theoretical knee point with unlimited pack and controller. I am there with one motor, one zilla and my pack. When I use two motors and the overdrive, my pack is starting to show its limits, and I am below the knee point near 2800rpm. I was trying to create something that was truly only the motor limits. For real life, the peak rpm knee on the Warp9 motor dyno sheet may be closer to 2800rpm.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Which reminds me... it would appear that in exchange for much higher zorch-resistance, the new Helwig brushes seem to wear down at an alarmingly fast rate* - have you noticed a lot more carbon dust around the brush assemblies since switching over to the Helwigs?
> * - which I have dutifully filed under the category, "TANSTAAFL"


No extra dust, probably vaporizing it, but if you look at the difference between power output between the top two lines, 170V and 190V figures, it doesn't seem in line. I don't think all the extra power is going into the driveshaft, I would say I am making about 50eHP in heat at the brushes. In my favor, with the overdrive, I am only at 4100rpm at 128mph. I have a viewing window into my motors while racing, I have yet to see any arc flare brightening the cab(I mostly race at night). I am thinking of putting a camera on them during a run.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We will be racing against Shawn Lawless S11 Lemonjuice on Thursday at Bradenton Motorsports Park, FL. You may witness the fastest EV race of all time between two electric conversion cars.

We are racing Pro-Modified Street Conversion. Both currently 333V. he has run a 9.8 I have a best time of 10.4

I will try to let it all hang out and see if we can take him.

Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*

Has everyone seen the drag race video by now?

http://youtu.be/2rflqt918MI




We ran 
60ft 1.551
1/8 6.321 112mph
1/4 9.898 134mph

http://www.youtube.com/dcplasmaracing
http://www.evalbum.com/2453
facebook lonestar ev racing john metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here is the run chart for the 9 second run.
We made a peak battery HP of 862
We crossed the line at 134mph and 4300rpm (torque calculation is based upon inputs and needs to be multiplied by estimated motor efficiency to get motor output torque.)


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

And the new controller output summary










and new battery PVI diagram


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*

holy shit you launched like a bat out of hell! The Fiero just took off!
Solidly into the 9's, wow congratulations John.










Can you help me read the graph and say why the Zilla data is adding up the motor amperage (4000A) but not the motor volts (only 200V)...Unless motor volts are on the secondary axis on the right-side of the graph...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

John, it's time to change the thread title.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



DIYguy said:


> John, it's time to change the thread title.


I would if I could.

Here are some links to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=dFf5ObTBofk

and the gopro footage of Shawn Lawless in an unusual position of coming in second....
http://www.youtube.com/user/dcplasmaracing?feature=mhee#p/c/A3E4F9ED20798E34/17/2rflqt918MI


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



Bowser330 said:


> Can you help me read the graph and say why the Zilla data is adding up the motor amperage (4000A) but not the motor volts (only 200V)...Unless motor volts are on the secondary axis on the right-side of the graph...


This chart is a summation of two zilla logs.
The two motors are in parallel, with each zilla providing power to one motor.
The motor volts are limited to 199V, that doesn't add together. There are actually two voltage lines nearly on top of each other, but I hid one to make the chart a little clearer. But the current is 2000amps each and that does add together for 4000 amps total.

The other tricky thing is the motors make 4000 amps (2kX2) and about 170V when the pack is around 250V and 2500Amps.

I had the battery limit here set at my previous setting of 2500 Amps. I will try 2800amps next (approx. 90C factory rating)
Also, I am tempted to play with the 199V setting.









Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



Bowser330 said:


> holy shit you launched like a bat out of hell! Can you help me read the graph and say why the Zilla data is adding up the motor amperage (4000A) but not the motor volts (only 200V)...Unless motor volts are on the secondary axis on the right-side of the graph...


It is also not adding the torque calculations together, I just noticed.
That is the calcs(pre-motor efficiency) for one motor.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Here is the run chart for the 9 second run.
> We made a peak battery HP of 862
> We crossed the line at 134mph and 4300rpm


Great run.
Can you comment on the current dip at about 1.5 seconds? did you lose traction?
Also, can you PM me the raw data for further analysis?
Gerhard


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Great run.
> Can you comment on the current dip at about 1.5 seconds? did you lose traction?
> Also, can you PM me the raw data for further analysis?
> Gerhard


Yes, that is a bad habit of mine, I lifted my foot around the 60 foot mark because at my home track in Baytown, that is where you switch from a deep concrete slab to a shallow one and the dew builds up there and I have broke traction at that exact spot DOZENS of times. So I tend to lift a little there to try to get through that area. You can see this on the line labeled "pedal" where it drops from 100%. I also slightly lift the pedal during when I am looking down for the overdrive shift button. I have already broken one pedal due to bracing myself for the acceleration by standing on the pedal so now I have this ultra light touch on the plastic.

I will send the hex dump if you want. Can you interpret it?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> Great run.
> Can you comment on the current dip at about 1.5 seconds? did you lose traction?
> Also, can you PM me the raw data for further analysis?
> Gerhard


Here is a run chart of what a traction break looks like at that exact spot from mid summer. Followed by one without.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

John Metric said:


> I will send the hex dump if you want. Can you interpret it?


HEX is cool as long as I know what the columns mean. I've PM'd my email.
Gerhard


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

GerhardRP said:


> HEX is cool as long as I know what the columns mean. I've PM'd my email.
> Gerhard


There seems to be a calibration factor for motor volts, about 199/115.
Is that true?
Gerhard


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## Otmar (Dec 4, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> There seems to be a calibration factor for motor volts, about 199/115.
> Is that true?
> Gerhard


Assuming he is sending you direct Zilla data, yes about 1.75V per bit. 
All the details for raw data are here: 

http://www.cafeelectricpress.com/blog/?p=16


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

DC Plasma raced the Texas Mile today and ran a 134mph in the 1/2 mile and 155mph in the full mile. From a standing start. You can see the first uploaded video by Mike Dunn here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6x-zCkYPL0&list=FL9pAXoc92fS7PtTrXudLJ1A&index=1&feature=plpp_video




Metric

This is the run chart from the 155mph run. See the overdrive shift in the middle. We ran at 1200max amps on the battery where the factory rating is 2500amps max.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Compilation of videos from Bradenton. Very Cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvg-j40N0ek&feature=relmfu


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## AntronX (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi John, did you build your battery out of bare cells or rc packs? How much did it cost? Thanks.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

AntronX said:


> Hi John, did you build your battery out of bare cells or rc packs? How much did it cost? Thanks.


Sorry for the delayed response.
I built them out of full off the shelf RC packs.
You can see pictures of the on my facebook page.
I used the polyquest balance plugs and split the power cables up into two halves and soldered each half to one side of a Deans connector. So the Deans plug was just a parallel connection of the same circuit.

Since I was ordering a lot of cells, I applied to become a dealer, which they allowed and got the cells for $100 less than the retail price which was still $242 each 6S pack.
(plus importing, assembly, modification, cases, BMS, installation, shipping of assembled packs) the packs were assembled by Thomas Cook at Lithiumstart.com


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

John Metric said:


> Sorry for the delayed response.
> I built them out of full off the shelf RC packs.
> You can see pictures of the on my facebook page.
> I used the polyquest balance plugs and split the power cables up into two halves and soldered each half to one side of a Deans connector. So the Deans plug was just a parallel connection of the same circuit.
> ...


genius!


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## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

John, what if anything did you do about the tail shaft adapter oil seal on the Gear Vendors? My housing takes a gasket on the face that bolts to the Gear Vendors and has an internal seal around the circumference of the spline coupling. Presumably the oil from the Gear Vendors will keep this seal lubricated, but I am concerned because just behind the seal is a copper(?) sleeve with grease runners. I could tap in a grease fitting, but would have modify the tail shaft adapter and press in another seal to keep the motor from getting slopped on. Any thoughts?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

danh818 said:


> John, what if anything did you do about the tail shaft adapter oil seal on the Gear Vendors? My housing takes a gasket on the face that bolts to the Gear Vendors and has an internal seal around the circumference of the spline coupling. Presumably the oil from the Gear Vendors will keep this seal lubricated, but I am concerned because just behind the seal is a copper(?) sleeve with grease runners. I could tap in a grease fitting, but would have modify the tail shaft adapter and press in another seal to keep the motor from getting slopped on. Any thoughts?


Are you building a drag racer or daily driver?
In drag racing application, I never see trans fluid get from the GV through the coupling into the adapter side. I pack the adpater piece about 1/2 full with heavy grease to the bottom of coupler. It has never even gotten warm it stays just like sticky peanut butter sitting there. The trans fluid is clean after nearly a year. But again my car is a drag car with about 50 miles on it total.
Remember the coupler is solid internally, it can't get through internally, so the seal is the only thing that could fail.

I would trust the seal. provide a little grease on the adpater side.


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## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

John Metric said:


> Are you building a drag racer or daily driver?
> In drag racing application, I never see trans fluid get from the GV through the coupling into the adapter side. I pack the adpater piece about 1/2 full with heavy grease to the bottom of coupler. It has never even gotten warm it stays just like sticky peanut butter sitting there. The trans fluid is clean after nearly a year. But again my car is a drag car with about 50 miles on it total.
> Remember the coupler is solid internally, it can't get through internally, so the seal is the only thing that could fail.
> 
> I would trust the seal. provide a little grease on the adpater side.


Sorry John I should have prefaced my question by telling you that I will be bolting the Gear Vendors right up to the motor. And that my car is intended to be driven daily. I may have to snap a picture of what I am talking about tomorrow when I make it back to the shop, but I think we are both on the same page. 

So if I understand you correctly you have not made any special provisions to keep grease from the coupling from making it back into the motor?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

danh818 said:


> Sorry John I should have prefaced my question by telling you that I will be bolting the Gear Vendors right up to the motor. And that my car is intended to be driven daily. I may have to snap a picture of what I am talking about tomorrow when I make it back to the shop, but I think we are both on the same page.
> 
> So if I understand you correctly you have not made any special provisions to keep grease from the coupling from making it back into the motor?


Nope, I just keep the grease level just touching the coupler. That much grease is probably overkill for my application.
If I drove more miles in row this might liquiefy and pour around in there but it would definitely be low head pressure. Do you have a netgain motor? The netgain motor bearings are permanenetly "sealed" too so that acts like a grease seal. I think you will be fine.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Nope, I just keep the grease level just touching the coupler. That much grease is probably overkill for my application.
> If I drove more miles in row this might liquiefy and pour around in there but it would definitely be low head pressure. Do you have a netgain motor? The netgain motor bearings are permanenetly "sealed" too so that acts like a grease seal. I think you will be fine.


and if its a transwarp, it is double bearing seal and pressed in so tight you need an extractor to get the bearings out of the endbell.


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## danh818 (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, I am running a transwarp 11hv. Great info thanks. I think I may just tap in a grease fitting in the adapter and call it a day.

I finally got around to starting a build thread in the "all conversion section" and a blog at http://infa944.blogspot.com




John Metric said:


> Nope, I just keep the grease level just touching the coupler. That much grease is probably overkill for my application.
> If I drove more miles in row this might liquiefy and pour around in there but it would definitely be low head pressure. Do you have a netgain motor? The netgain motor bearings are permanenetly "sealed" too so that acts like a grease seal. I think you will be fine.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Newbie Dumb Arse Q's (no insult intended):

What is the raceweight of the Fiero?

What is "Electric HP" rating?

I've run bikes, cars, and trucks, and perhaps the closest ET data I have would be:

754rwhp (Westech Dyno's Superflow)
Raceweight 6420LB (HRP scale)
ET 10.59 @ 130 mph (HRP)
60' = 1.64

IIRC, another (LVMS) would be about 2800lb, 600HP, [email protected]? Not sure, as it wasn't my car, just the driver.

Another even more stupid question is:

I see Warp 9 motor tech sheets. They say 34HP and 72v ? Are these the same motors?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't understand how electric motors are rated for racing. I want to start dinking with electrics, but I'm confused as to what I'm looking at.

I'm trying to figure out what would be required to generate 500rwhp through a transmission by using electric motor(s) for 45 seconds duration.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> I'm trying to figure out what would be required to generate 500rwhp through a transmission by using electric motor(s) for 45 seconds duration.


A Tesla Model S would come close. 

Hi there McRat,

Welcome. Yep, electric motors are different critters than those ICE jobs. The power ratings don't compare. But power is power. Just difference in the "rating" meaning duration and conditions. It'll take a while for it to sink in.

45 seconds, he? I wonder why  I'll likely take some crap for saying this, but you'll need AC drives. DC works for the drag strip. And John did the mile with it. But barely if I interpret his reports correctly. 

Regards,

major


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

major said:


> A Tesla Model S would come close.
> 
> Hi there McRat,
> 
> ...


Thanks! One good thing is electrics don't hate high altitude ...  Since the second run is done the next morning, there is plenty of charging time, unlike the dragstrip. 

Is there a rule against using a 3 mile long extension cord?


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Is that your truck on the Salt Flats? Gotta love a sport where you run wide open for minutes at a time!

Electric motors are hp rated for 1 hour or continuous use. As the NEDRA drag racers show, they can be overloaded way beyond the rating briefly.

Google on "Buckeye Bullet" to see how they went 300+ mph electrically. Major's race team went 215 on an electric motorcycle on the Salt Flats.


McRat said:


> Newbie Dumb Arse Q's (no insult intended):
> 
> What is the raceweight of the Fiero?
> 
> ...


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Is that your truck on the Salt Flats? Gotta love a sport where you run wide open for minutes at a time!
> 
> Electric motors are hp rated for 1 hour or continuous use. As the NEDRA drag racers show, they can be overloaded way beyond the rating briefly.
> 
> Google on "Buckeye Bullet" to see how they went 300+ mph electrically. Major's race team went 215 on an electric motorcycle on the Salt Flats.


Yes, that truck is "Casper". We ran it Bonneville 2 years with a best mph of 197+ mph but could not back it up, a piston failed.

IIRC, somebody went 175+ in the dirt at El Mirage on an electric bike. Same guy?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

McRat said:


> Newbie Dumb Arse Q's (no insult intended):
> What is the raceweight of the Fiero?


_What is the raceweight of the Fiero? _
Started at 2950 and is now 2725#

_What is "Electric HP" rating? _
The peak battery HP peak I have hit is about 900. That is about the battery limit. That is the battery output, you need to take off about 15-20% for the motor efficiency and 10% for driveline efficiency to get rear wheel horsepower. And then on a drag race, that is the peak HP that is only reached once per gear change. You can go to http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm and put in 2725 and 9.898 seconds and get various horsepower ratings. Those would be the average horsepower ratings equivalent.

_I see Warp 9 motor tech sheets. They say 34HP and 72v ? Are these the same motors? _
YES!!!, I run stock Warp9 motors. I just never let them get up to the speed where the motor emf cuts them back to 34HP. We also over amp and overvolt them, up to 2000A and 170V.
Take a look at some of the run charts from this build thread and look at batteryhorsepower. better yet, join NEDRA YAHOO GROUP forum and look up DC Plasma in Photos section and see a bunch of run data for drag racing.


_I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't understand how electric motors are rated for racing. I want to start dinking with electrics, but I'm confused as to what I'm looking at._
_I'm trying to figure out what would be required to generate 500rwhp through a transmission by using electric motor(s) for 45 seconds duration. _

We made about 350RWHP for about 35 seconds on the Texas Mile. Finished at 155mph. That was at half power.
Well, one thing is we make a bunch of torque off the line putting out nearly zero horsepower, so that is in your favor.
Is this a truck application (tractor pulling by any chance?), what is the application? 1.5mile at Loring? LSR?
I would have to agree with Jeff, you may run into some cooling issues here doing it with DC motors.
Can I ask you, perhaps what you want to make is, 500 ftlbs of torque for 45 seconds that would be a lot easier? My little car puts out 1500ftlbs through a two speed transmission(not for 45 seconds). or do you need horsepower? meaning speed....


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9 Sec Fiero*



McRat said:


> Yes, that truck is "Casper". We ran it Bonneville 2 years with a best mph of 197+ mph but could not back it up, a piston failed.
> IIRC, somebody went 175+ in the dirt at El Mirage on an electric bike. Same guy?


So you are trying to build a new land speed racer?
A good contact here might be Bill Dube, Eva Hakkansen, Jeff Major of course, Dave Cover, Frank John.

Is 500RHWP what is need to get over the air drag and wheel drag? or is that the HP you think you need to get up to speed?
Take a look at my Texas Mile run chart up above. That is about the closest thing I have seen to data on high speed runs.
We were at 155mph at one mile and then cut it off but we were still accelerating really nicely. The rear motor brushes and coils had to be retired after that. But next time we will have some forced air cooling for both motors.
Given a long enough track and enough cooling and battery...My calcs had us at a top speed nearly 199mph. 2.73 diff, 27" tires, 0.78 overdrive.

Never got over 170V and 1000 amps per motor.
Check out he videos on my youtube site to check the acceleration.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

First... What you have done with your Fiero is amazing. I'm a hotrodder by nature, I love making things go faster, and a stock Fiero is a slug. To think you could get into rollcage territory on batteries is truly impressive.

I'm still reading and exploring electric technology. I have lots of ideas what could be done with it, but I really need to start small and work up.

Will I run an electric LSR vehicle? Dunno yet. If someone told me 10 years ago I'd be racing 3/4 ton pickups I'd have asked them for a hit of whatever they are smoking. I was racing cars and bikes, and decided I wanted my tow vehicle to go a little faster, and got carried away.

My kids and I are building a small solar car to get our feet wet. Then I will play with hybrid technology, then perhaps a full electric racer if things go well.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Doh! 500rwhp is just a number off the top of my head. It's probably where I will start out with a hybrid setup.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks!

I'm starting to understand the graphs better. It looks like you have better "HP area under the curve" with the Impulse motors but the track data doesn't appear to have any shifting? And the HP falls on the big end, whereas we gain HP the faster we go. Normal 9's for diesels are 140+ mph. We make more power the longer we run. We never hit full output in a 1/4mi. 

So a Warp9 with a Zilla and 200v would hit over 400 battery HP with enough high discharge rate cells? I would sneak up on it, not go max effort.

You used high C rating R/C airplane packs? Before I found this board (or was aware that electric racing is getting big), I was looking at a lot of R/C parts. In theory, many of the RC motors are rated at over 10HP in a small package. 

Anyhow, thanks for the graphs and info. It's very refreshing to hear a racer giving out data. While I do that a lot for diesels and cars, it's not the norm. Most are "Secret Squirrels" about what they are doing.

Sidebar - Could temperature be the cause of the HP drop? Would supercooling with a nitrogen tank be of any help? Problem is, it would create moisture where you spray it. You'd have to seal off the cooling areas.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> Sidebar - Could temperature be the cause of the HP drop?


Hi McRat,

What you see is characteristic of electric motor behavior. The motor has an internal voltage generated which is proportional to speed (RPM). It is called Back EMF and has a polarity opposing the applied voltage (from the battery via the controller). The current (which is responsible for torque) is the difference between the applied voltage and BEMF divided by the resistance.

So once the motor reaches a certain RPM (called base speed), the difference between battery voltage and BEMF diminishes and current drops therefore power tails off. There are limitations on the how much voltage can be applied to the motors so it is not as simple as increasing battery voltage. 

I'm not saying motor parts don't heat up and wouldn't benefit from cooling, but that is not the reason you see peak power at less than peak speed. 

Regards,

major


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*

Took a lot of data and running through my drag modeling software, I think I finally got a pretty good motor output dyno simulation. I put in a max of 700 battery horsepower which I call BHP. Using that and the rpm I calculate Gross Calculated Torque GCTQ, and then on the second chart I multiply by an estimate of 85% motor effiiciency to get the estimated motor horsepower and the estimated net torque.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Image didn't work.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> I was hoping to see the Warp9 peak horsepower to be in the 4000rpm range...we need more peoples dyno's!!! I hope you have started a trend!


So after about a 1.5 years of drag racing DC Plasma I have updated the model to reflect the real life data at the different inflection points.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

85% efficiency on a Warp 9 when it take 2000A.... A real dream.. 
I estimate a more accurate number would be between 50 and 70%.
A dyno would be useful here!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



Yabert said:


> 85% efficiency on a Warp 9 when it take 2000A.... A real dream..
> I estimate a more accurate number would be between 50 and 70%.
> A dyno would be useful here!


Yes it would, but I don't have one so I have been busy calculating.
Do you have any data to back up your statement.

There is mine.
The motor input power is very accurate, the rpm is fairly accurate so the gross available torque number is just a measuring stick you can arrive at with the standard 5252 calc.
We could also take the power input and net it down 50-70% and then recalc the torque but it doesn't work out to real life results. 85% seems to be what works.

for a 2950lb car to go 59 feet in 1.55 seconds, with a 3.08 diff and a 27" tire what do you get as an average torque? or for a 9.898 at 134mph what is the average horsepower? knowing I put no more than 700Hp max into it and had tail off issues in the front and back what efficiency did I get?


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

If you don't run into top end gearing issues, the best barometer for average rwhp numbers comes from 1/4 mile trap speeds and the weight. It's surprisingly accurate. 60' times don't come into the picture, as a 2.0 sixty will trap just like a 1.4x. Been there, done that. However, blowing off the tires on the 1-2 shift will hurt MPH.

I tune on a chassis dyno, but then I hone the tune at the track.

Now, your target isn't always trap speed though. If you run out of gear at 1200-1400 feet, it doesn't hurt too much.

In the end, HP numbers are the biggest comedy routine in racing. While more power is more acceleration, the actual numbers apply to your racing, not somebody elses. HP is only a piece of the equation. HP sells parts and attracts attention. Winning however is the objective. The ability to always perform when you whup it out is not only successful for pron stars, but it is critical in racing.

Anything that runs 9's is stupid fast. To put it in perspective, a pro driver in a Viper with a 200 shot of nitrous MIGHT get into the 9's. That's about 700rwhp.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

McRat said:


> Anything that runs 9's is stupid fast.


Nicely said...

John, you should add that line from McRat on your signature.

The best part about all of this is that John is using true off the shelf parts, not tuned up motors with secret modifications like some other EV Racers.

Really great to see the Warp9's taking 199V each, Netgain is stepping up and implementing new tech into these old tech motors.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Nicely said...
> John, you should add that line from McRat on your signature.
> The best part about all of this is that John is using true off the shelf parts, not tuned up motors with secret modifications like some other EV Racers.
> Really great to see the Warp9's taking 199V each, Netgain is stepping up and implementing new tech into these old tech motors.


Yes, I just am learning about Glyptal. Sounds like it should help out.
I see netgain is now selling every motor with the new helwig split red top brushes they sent us for a trial over a year ago.

Racing--->failure--->improvment--->new OEM parts

Metric
"Anything that runs 9's is stupid fast." - McRat


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

McRat, you run a diesel at the dragstrip?

I am building a Miata called Assault&Battery that should have a top rpm of about 3500. But make 1500ftlbs all the way down the track. We are doing this with a five speed transmission. Lenco 2-speed and then two GV overdrives. Final Drive Ratio of 1.824.

How does that compare to rpm's on a diesel?


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

John Metric said:


> McRat, you run a diesel at the dragstrip?
> 
> I am building a Miata called Assault&Battery that should have a top rpm of about 3500. But make 1500ftlbs all the way down the track. We are doing this with a five speed transmission. Lenco 2-speed and then two GV overdrives. Final Drive Ratio of 1.824.
> 
> How does that compare to rpm's on a diesel?


Yes, I started drag racing diesel pickups in '04. Here's a clip of "Casper" at HRP at the Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6sm0lFKmXU It's the clean burning white truck.

With a stock engine and turbo, we shift the 5 gears at 3200-3400 rpm with 3.73 rear end gears on 30" tires. But that is [email protected]

With a 2.6" BorgWarner turbo, it shifts at 3600, [email protected]

With a 3.0" Garrett, it shifts at 4000 and 10.5 @ 130.

We have run bigger turbos and twins, which are capable of 9 second ET's, but never got the chance. Yet. This is same truck we run Bonneville with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LC1OwG-8jg

On a 3.2" custom single, it shifts at 4800 rpm.

1500ftlb is serious torque. I blew a transfer case up like a handgrenade at 1650ftlb, and that's when we moved the powerband up. However, we are about 6500lb and 4x4, and a lot of things change up at that weight.

4x4 has advantages. Tires can be inflated higher, track prep isn't critical, no burnout necessary for 1.5x sixties. And I believe it to be safer. If I do an electric drag project, it will be 4x4.

But it that's my opinion, your existing setup is freakin' insane. That pass is what drew me to the board, and has me exploring electric tech. All kinds of cars are different. The easiest car to drive for me was a rwd Super Gas Firebird, 9.3 @ 148. Both my wife and I hold Super Gas NHRA licenses.

I am another one who deeply appreciates your tech posts. Most guys on the Bleeding Edge of performance are pretty quiet, and when they do open their mouths, it's to pump up their sponsors or their shop. You my friend are a cut above.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

I seriously think your powertrain could set the world's record for top speed in an EV at Bonneville. You can push start it up to high speed. I'd be honored to assist in such a project in any way I can. You'd be competing against million dollar large-team, Fortune 500 sponsored cars. But I think you could take them.

Want to go over 300? We push start it to >100mph, and you have 5 miles to git-er-dun. You don't have to run the full 5 miles, it's broken down to 1 mile intervals. You'd have to be able to recharge/refit overnight. Gearing is far easier, as they use "quick change" axles. 10 second = a mile at 300. Casper could push start up to 150 pretty easy. It will go over 150 in a mile with a lazy start at 7100lb in 2wd. In 4x4? Look out.

In any case, there are 2.50 gears for the Ford 9" axle, which should handle drag racing loads, and not be too heavy, or too expensive. We pushed 936rwhp though one with no problems.

Stupid question: How come nobody runs a torque convertor? They put you at your HP peak RPM for the whole pass. Yes, a TC is a bit lossy, but not that bad.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

McRat said:


> Stupid question: How come nobody runs a torque convertor? They put you at your HP peak RPM for the whole pass. Yes, a TC is a bit lossy, but not that bad.


When doing a conversion it's fun to take out everything you don't need, plus with a converter you need to idle the motor, which wastes power. Probably not big deal in a race vehicle though. That said I'm pretty sure some people do keep the torque converter and idle the motor, I know Jack Rickard is doing just that in his Escalade build.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> When doing a conversion it's fun to take out everything you don't need, plus with a converter you need to idle the motor, which wastes power. Probably not big deal in a race vehicle though. That said I'm pretty sure some people do keep the torque converter and idle the motor, I know Jack Rickard is doing just that in his Escalade build.


It's not for idling. When you nail the throttle, it instantly goes to stall RPM. If your peak HP is say 3000, you find a converter that will hit 3000 when you goose it. It multiplies torque just like a gearbox does. Many 1000HP cars run just 2 speed trans with a converter. TF dragsters use a timed multi-disk clutch pack, which acts much the same. They have 1 or 2 speeds. Mostly 1 IIRC?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well my understanding of automatics is minimal, but I thought that if you didn't idle the motor then when you shift the transmission into gear and hit the throttle it bangs into gear.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> TF dragsters use a timed multi-disk clutch pack, which acts much the same.


Hi Rat,

Clutches don't multiply torque  They just slip. So the ICE can run at speed with zero RPM on the wheels and transfer torque to the wheels by slipping the clutch. Electric motors are able to produce maximum torque at zero RPM all the way up to base speed, so don't need to slip.

Torque converters do multiply torque at the expense of reduced speed, increased mass and loss. The very high starting torque from the series wound motor fed with kiloamps seems to negate the need for the TC. Don't know if it has been tried. Might give you a little more. Give it a try  But when you don't have to idle the power plant and slip something to get off the line, why bother 

major


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

major said:


> Hi Rat,
> 
> Clutches don't multiply torque  ...
> major


This is akin to the HP vs Torque wars that have claimed thousands of lives over the years. 

OK, on a GSX1000G that makes under 80ftlbs, I can slip the clutch in second and stand it on it's license plate. Where did the torque come from? No inertia to speak of.

I have "slow" '02 manual trans Vette. It has exactly 390ftlbs at tires and has a raceweight of 3340lb with 3.42 gears. I have pulled both tires off the ground on a "no prisoners" 7200rpm launch.

On a Kaw H1, I could loft the tire at freeway speeds in 4th at 55mph by trashing the Barrett within an inch of it's life.

Math will not support lifting that much weight unless the RWTQ increases dramatically.

There is no difference between a clutch and a TC. They are two different designs that do the same thing. You are allowing a high RPM shaft to couple to a low RPM shaft with extreme prejudice. The loss in the transaction becomes heat. Unless you want to believe a TF rail clutch can dissipate 6000+ HP. 400HP will fuse metal together at 6000rpm.

Trust me. On this one, we will have to agree to disagree.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Now, if you are math guy, (math says the max ET is 9.x seconds in the quarter), this is how it works:

There are two 90° vectors. The apply force, and engine torque. When you apply force, you create a result vector. This is what multiplies the engine torque.

A liquid TC does the exact same thing. You have a stator vane angle vs a rotor vane angle. The resulting vector is what multiplies the torque.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> Unless you want to believe a TF rail clutch can dissipate 6000+ HP. 400HP will fuse metal together at 6000rpm.


I thought those clutches did weld every pass and had to be replaced each time.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> Well my understanding of automatics is minimal, but I thought that if you didn't idle the motor then when you shift the transmission into gear and hit the throttle it bangs into gear.


No, an automatic will shift smoothly with a locking TC. We lock our converters immediately after the 1-2 shift and leave it locked for 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5.

For a street car, the ability to sit at a stoplight with the car in gear is a big plus. But hold the brake, and let the RPM climb, then release, and watch what happens. Modern cars have "abuse control" that will limit engine output when you try that. Pity.

The TC permits leaving a stoplight without using a clutch, something that is not necessary with an electric, but highly desirable if you like violence.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

major said:


> I thought those clutches did weld every pass and had to be replaced each time.


Hmmm... I think they get about 3-4 passes before replacing the pack. The pistons, sure, every pass. Not a TF guy.

6000HP would melt the entire pack if it became heat all at once. Several thousand degrees. It "rides" the clutch a couple of seconds.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> A liquid TC does the exact same thing. You have a stator vane angle vs a rotor vane angle. The resulting vector is what multiplies the torque.


I said the TC multiplies torque at the expense of rotational velocity. It uses a mechanical advantage accomplished with hydraulic fluid. But clutches do not. They simply slip. Torque in equals torque out. Power out is proportional to the rotational velocity. The rest of the power in is lost as heat.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

major said:


> I said the TC multiplies torque at the expense of rotational velocity. It uses a mechanical advantage accomplished with hydraulic fluid. But clutches do not. They simply slip. Torque in equals torque out. Power out is proportional to the rotational velocity. The rest of the power in is lost as heat.


Turn 460rwhp at 0 rpm into calories, and apply it to 12 lbs of steel. It would fail, since steel softens starting at 500°F. 6000HP? 

Like I said, we need to agree to disagree. I've never changed the mind of a single "clutches lose all their HP" guy ...

But I have violated quite a number of automatic Vettes with more HP. No way I shift faster than digital controlled automagic.


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

Getting back on the EV topic ... If you burn brushes or otherwise damage components at low rpm, a TC would stop that from happening.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

McRat said:


> Getting back on the EV topic ... If you burn brushes or otherwise damage components at low rpm, a TC would stop that from happening.


I suppose you mean by avoiding the low RPM on the electric motor  However from what I see, the zorches occur at higher RPM on the drag strip.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

McRat said:


> No, an automatic will shift smoothly with a locking TC. We lock our converters immediately after the 1-2 shift and leave it locked for 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5.


Ok, so what happens from a stop, no idle, no fluid pressure, when taking off with an unlocked torque converter?


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

major said:


> I said the TC multiplies torque at the expense of rotational velocity. It uses a mechanical advantage accomplished with hydraulic fluid. But clutches do not. They simply slip. Torque in equals torque out. Power out is proportional to the rotational velocity. The rest of the power in is lost as heat.


Top fuel dragsters use clutch slip to their advantage, it can't be discounted because it is inefficient.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Top fuel dragsters use clutch slip to their advantage, it can't be discounted because it is inefficient.


I don't discount it, but the clutch gives no mechanical advantage in the sense there is no greater torque coming out of the clutch than is put into the clutch. The torque out is equal to the torque in.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*

Already in the midst of a new transmission.
This is a photoshop of my next transmission I am building for Assault&Battery. Got the Lenco and second GV, waiting on the multi GV in the middle. Mounted the Lenco already.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/assault-n-battery-build-thread-74539p5.html


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## McRat (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



John Metric said:


> Already in the midst of a new transmission.
> This is a photoshop of my next transmission I am building for Assault&Battery. Got the Lenco and second GV, waiting on the multi GV in the middle. Mounted the Lenco already.
> 
> ...


Very sweet! 

Sorry for the hijack.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If anyone want's to continue the auto trans discussions there are a couple of existing threads we can use:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...s-why-automatic-gearboxes-work-evs-29101.html

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/powerglide-secrets-evers-should-know-22045.html


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



JRP3 said:


> If anyone want's to continue the auto trans discussions there are a couple of existing threads we can use:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...s-why-automatic-gearboxes-work-evs-29101.html
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/powerglide-secrets-evers-should-know-22045.html


OK, here is stage one of Assault&Battery's new transmisison. See the build on facebook too. "Lonestar EV Racing Team"


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Am I correct in assuming that the transwarp splined shaft is stronger than the standard warp9 shaft? Is your front motor the standard warp output shaft or is it a transwarp with a splined coupler?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: DC Plasma - Build Thread - 9Sec Fiero*



> Am I correct in assuming that the transwarp splined shaft is stronger than the standard warp9 shaft? Is your front motor the standard warp output shaft or is it a transwarp with a splined coupler?


Yes the Twarp9 has a 1.375" 32 spline DE output shaft, very rugged.
The TWarp9 CE end is 1.125" round 1/4" single key shaft.
The Warp9 DE end has a 1.125" round 1/4" single key shaft.
I mate them with a 4" long solid coupler.
I use a custom alloy key in mine for good measure.

The Warp9 CE end is .875" round.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We are moving the Assault & Battery thread over to here...
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/assault-n-battery-build-thread-74539.html


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I am inviting all EV enthusiasts who want to venture down here a place to stay and charge and race against Lonestar EV Racing team's latest car Assault&Battery.
ON Memorial day weekend Saturday May 25th 5pm we will be at Lonestar Motorsports Park in Sealy Texas, racing test-n-tune, bracket racing, 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile.
http://www.lonestarmotorsportspark.com/

ON Sunday Memorial day weekend the 26th 3pm we are invited to Alleycat's Memorial Lock-In Grudge Match.
By special invitation from The Texas Alleycat himself racing Pro-Mod and everything from 4.9 to 7.0 brackets A&B will be there to find a 110mph culprit we can sprint past and start our own grudge race.
http://www.houstonmotorsportspark.com/dSched.htm
I will fly the NEDRA banner, so you could call it a NEDRA event but not a sanctioned event, just a nedra-member thing.....

Plenty of time to make your plans.... 
Metric


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Nicely said...
> 
> John, you should add that line from McRat on your signature.
> 
> ...


Yes I think I will, but now I need a new quote from McRat. What do you call an 8 second car?


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