# High voltage, High current, Small capacity pack?



## Longbow46 (Sep 3, 2018)

Hi all!

I am converting a lighter car (900kg) to an EV. For the motor I have chosen the Remy HVH250-90S. I also have the AC controller situation pretty much figured out (thanks P&S Power!).

Now I need to think about batteries. The motor will work with 200V - 700V. The maximum I would push it would be* 600A at 700V.*

Because it is a small car I am limited to the amount of space the batteries could occupy and would like to *stay light*. Also I do not need a massive range. Somewhere around 100km(~60miles) would suffice. But I sure would like some power too. 

If using Li-ion cells that would amount to an enormous number of them if I also want some torque.
I would like to avoid StepUP boost converters.


Any suggestions?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> Because it is a small car I am limited to the amount of space the batteries could occupy and would like to *stay light*. Also I do not need a massive range. Somewhere around 100km(~60miles) would suffice.


By DIY standards, while that is not a "massive" range, it is still substantial. It might take 20 kWh of battery capacity, and while that's not large by current production EV standards, it's still a big heavy box full.



Longbow46 said:


> If using Li-ion cells that would amount to an enormous number of them if I also want some torque.


You will be using some sort of lithium battery, since there is no better alternative. By "Li-ion cells" do you mean the individual prismatic cells, such as those from CALB, that were popular in conversions for a few years? The currently popular approach is to use modules salvaged from production EVs, which (in addition to being less expensive) can be somewhat lighter and more compact by having less packaging around each cell.

With any large-format cell (as used by in most production EVs) you still have the challenge that if you want a high pack voltage you need a lot of cells, and that establishes a minimum pack size. The small cylindrical cells can be combined into a relatively small pack with high voltage and low current capacity, but they are not really practical to custom-package.

If you want to run at the high end of the voltage range, one compromise to get high voltage from a small pack is to use modules from a hybrid rather than a pure battery-electric vehicle, because they tend to be smaller. On the other hand, most non-plug-in hybrids have used NiCd cells, not lithium, so they have inadequate energy storage capacity.

Does anyone know what the smallest roughly 360V lithium pack (presumably from a plug-in-hybrid) might be? Two of them in series would be a candidate package for high voltage; one would be a candidate for a shorter-range pack at a typical modern EV voltage. There's the popular Chevrolet Volt battery, but two of them would still be large (even though mfor1000 is jamming two of them into a 911).


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Looks like 2, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV batteries would fit the bill: https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018/specifications

Lithium, 12kWh, and 300V. I don't know about other years. The Toyota High lander still uses NiMH batteries?
Although they won't work with this higher voltage build, the Outlander, has both front and rear electric drives available for DIY use. Somebody probably has or is trying to hack the inverter and other electronic components. The Outlander also has DC fast charge capabilities- a nice addition to a build, if it can be included.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Looks like 2, 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV batteries would fit the bill: https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2018/specifications
> 
> Lithium, 12kWh, and 300V. I don't know about other years.


The Outlander PHEV is a series design, so the battery should have good power capacity... good for this application.

Although this model hasn't changed much since its introduction, I remember seeing reports that the battery capacity has increased.



electro wrks said:


> The Toyota High lander still uses NiMH batteries?


Yes. I think all Toyota other non-plug-in hybrids use NiMH, too; the Prius Prime has lithium, but may be the only one.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Although they won't work with this higher voltage build, the Outlander, has both front and rear electric drives available for DIY use. Somebody probably has or is trying to hack the inverter and other electronic components.


Any of the AWD hybrids which have an electric-only second drive axle (typically the rear) are a possible source of a drive unit of moderate power; however, cooling can be an issue because they are not expected to run at significant power continuously. That includes the Outlander, Toyota Highlander and RAV4, Lexus RX, Acura MDX and Honda Pilot, Volvo XC90... The Toyota units are unique to them; the Outlander uses GKN drive units.

Any hybrid which runs primarily in series mode is a potential source of a drive unit for the engine end (the front in most cases), although it may be difficult to separate the motor and transaxle from the engine and generator, especially in designs with a clutch which can connect the engine to the drive axles for a mechanical high gear (Honda Accord, Mitsubishi Outlander). The only completely series hybrid light vehicle sysem (not bus or truck) that I know of is Nissan's e-POWER system (which is not sold in North America)... but even then separating motor and generator would be difficult.

Two rear drive units - one in front and one in rear - might be adequate for a compact car.


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## Longbow46 (Sep 3, 2018)

@brian_: Thanks for a comprehensive overview of the current situation in the world of EV batteries 


I was looking at CALB cells, then found the smaller capacity Winston(*WB-LYP60AHA)* 60Ah*, *it is a LiFePO4 variety. Which means a voltage of 3.65V and less under load. I would need 200 of those cells to have a little over 600v


Then I stumbled upon this: *Enerdel NMC 
*
They come in packs/modules with a configuration of 12s2p


10 modules would give roughly 400V. So 15 of them should do it(=225kg). But we are talking about 10kUSD



What are my options? With those cells I still have to make a custom BMS etc.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

You could also use 2x Volkswagen Passat GTE battery (9,9kWh, 96s, Samsung SDI high power cells)

or more available: VW Golf GTE battery (also used in audi ..) 8,6 kWh, 96s, Panasonic cells


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> ... Then I stumbled upon this: *Enerdel NMC
> *
> They come in packs/modules with a configuration of 12s2p
> 
> 10 modules would give roughly 400V. So 15 of them should do it(=225kg). But we are talking about 10kUSD


This?
ME500-050 Moxie+ Battery Module

Is a maximum of 250 amps - for only 10 seconds at most - the "high current" that you want? It's only 100 kW even at 400 volts, and far short of your 600 amp target.

It looks like they'll sell you 8-module or 14-module complete pack, in a nice box.



Longbow46 said:


> With those cells I still have to make a custom BMS etc.


The specs include 


> Flexible circuits for individual element voltage sensing and 12 temperature zone sensing


So the on-module components appear to be there, but you still need a BMS to use the data from them and manage the battery. The spec sheet might provide more information, but I didn't download it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Longbow

Two Chevy volt battery packs would give you the voltage you need - the battery includes the BMS and various other useful bits and they are selling for around $2000US

They come apart into 2 kwh and 1 kwh modules 

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2012-chevy-volt-battery-93101.html


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Longbow46 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am converting a lighter car (900kg) to an EV. For the motor I have chosen the Remy HVH250-90S. I also have the AC controller situation pretty much figured out (thanks P&S Power!).
> 
> ...


Notice on the datasheet for your motor, the S (series wound) version is limited to 300A not 600A.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> The motor will work with 200V - 700V. The maximum I would push it would be* 600A at 700V.*


I didn't notice this before, but the comment about motor specs made me look at these values again...
600 amps at 700 volts is 420 kW!

Is that really the plan, or did you mean that the motor might be pushed to perhaps 100 amps at as much as 700 volts (at high speed), and at other times to a much higher current (300 or 600 A) at much lower voltage (at low speed)?


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## Longbow46 (Sep 3, 2018)

The motor is a remy250 but only the cartridge at the moment. It is from the bmw X6 hybrid. Don't worry. I work in a CNC shop, with lots of machines. I will make a housing for it. I may change the hollow shaft with a custom made solid shaft.



The seller told me that he got it to make 175kW at 700v with an industrial inverter and about 63kW at 280volts. I made a mistake with those 600A. That is the maximum current of the IGBTs that I will use with the P&S AC motor inverter/controller.
He also told me that the specs of this motor are not exactly like other HVH250 models, but should be pretty similar to the 90S series. With the stator wired in series.


I would like to run at 600v or more, preferably at 700v for the efficiency and torque - which is dependant on the voltage as I understand.


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## Longbow46 (Sep 3, 2018)

@brian_: I looked at those: https://evolveelectrics.com/products/enerdel-ec12s2p


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## Longbow46 (Sep 3, 2018)

boekel said:


> You could also use 2x Volkswagen Passat GTE battery (9,9kWh, 96s, Samsung SDI high power cells)
> 
> or more available: VW Golf GTE battery (also used in audi ..) 8,6 kWh, 96s, Panasonic cells



This seems interesting! Now where to find one for sale. Should I go to a VW dealer?


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

I buy them from scrapyards, probably a bit cheaper 

degradation seems very little if any.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> I would like to run at 600v or more, preferably at 700v for the efficiency and torque - which is dependant on the voltage as I understand.


For a given motor, torque is dependent on current, and the voltage needed depends on the current being driven and the rotational speed.

Higher supply voltage makes higher speeds available (within the rated speed range of the motor), which makes additional speed/torque combinations available for the same power... which may be more efficient than other speed/torque combinations.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> @brian_: I looked at those: https://evolveelectrics.com/products/enerdel-ec12s2p


That looks similar to what I linked, but with far inferior specs for energy capacity and discharge rate. It appears to be the "energy module" in their older Generation One Technology. The difference is "Generation One" CE175-360 cells versus "Generation Three" CE250-370 cells.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Longbow46 said:


> The motor is a remy250 but only the cartridge at the moment. It is from the bmw X6 hybrid.


Ah, the classic Global Hybrid Corporation Two-Mode system, co-developed by GM, Daimler, and Chrysler, later joined by BMW. Essentially the same Remy units (two of them) are found in transmissions from all of those manufacturers, mostly in SUVs built for few years starting around 2008. For more specs and any hints for using the cartridge, people working with units from these other vehicles may have information.

Allison started offering this system for buses years earlier, and apparently still sells it as the H 40/50 EPTM Series. They presumably use a larger Remy cartridge, but I've never seen any details. They do run in the higher voltage range of the Remy units.


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## boznz (Aug 22, 2018)

I will be having a similar dilemma in about 3 months time when I convert my E39 (got to get my 'big shed project' out of the way first though!) 

I have ordered a nice 320V 25/50KW 45Kg Permanent magnet synchronous motor from china for $1300 delivered and I will be building up the P&S Controller when it arrives to drive it. My current favoured solution which may work for you is to make my own batteries using 18650's. I recently got in touch with a local (NZ) guy who refurbishes balances and tests old batteries for about US$2 each so I will be ordering 400 to do some testing to make a 320V pack then use 9 x 36V (10S40P) Battery packs in series with a simple BMS to power everything. 

My current master plan is to use this company Voltaplex and purchase 9 of their 10S20P battery packs which will probably come to around $10K  but should get me the range you are looking for.










Being a small car you are going to be constrained by space and weight, Some government inspectors will not certify your vehicle for road use if it goes over its original designed weight, big motors and big battery packs may do that so its worth taking in to account.


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## kirk (Nov 9, 2013)

I have (120) never-used CALB 72ah cells with connectors for sale at $100 each. I bought them new for use with a very similar system (but with AMRacing 90s motor & Rinhart controller). If ad is up, still for sale:
https://corvallis.craigslist.org/ele/d/new-lithium-cells-batteries/6685271778.html


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

brian_ said:


> I didn't notice this before, but the comment about motor specs made me look at these values again...
> 600 amps at 700 volts is 420 kW!


Three phase motors don't quite work as a simple multiplication like that. Still, the parallel wound version can do upwards of 300 kW.

But, again, the Series wound version, if that is what this really is, is limited to 300 Amps, and thus is more like 150-175 kW.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollie Maea said:


> Three phase motors don't quite work as a simple multiplication like that.


True. But what would the power being supplied to the motor at 700 VRMS phase-to-phase, 600 ARMS phase current, and a power factor of 0.9 be? That's 654 kW (remember that factor of the square root of three). If the 700 V and 600 A were DC link values, then they would just multiply to 420 kW.

At 300 amps instead of 600 amps, the values are cut in half, of course.

The point was that this would be an enormous power level for an under-one-ton car with a small battery - even at 300 amps - but it won't occur because those voltage and current values are not likely to be simultaneous.


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## kevinjclancy (Sep 25, 2017)

I have been searching for a small powerful motor for my EV conversion and have not had any luck - The Remy250 looks very good but I fear that it is possibly expensive. Am I right ? also what is the weight of the motor ? it looks to have an odd shaft or lack of a shaft ? where can I buy one of these motors ?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

^

This (300A limit). But it does make an awful lot of torque! And remember the only time the batteries will need to supply high current is right up near the base speed at 100% output. Otherwise the controller trades volts for amps and battery load is a lot lower.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

I have one for sale. This was in a street bike with a 96S pack of Enerdels. It was an extremely potent combination (a bit heavy on a bike) but I decided to go racing and replaced it with the parallel wound version.


https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1020653#post1020653


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

kevinjclancy said:


> I have been searching for a small powerful motor for my EV conversion and have not had any luck - The Remy250 looks very good...
> 
> ... what is the weight of the motor ?


Remy was purchased by Borg-Warner, and so information about the HVH motors is available from them:
HVH Series Electric Motor



kevinjclancy said:


> it looks to have an odd shaft or lack of a shaft ?


It normally has a hollow shaft with splines, so it fits over a splined shaft of a transmission. It is unusual because the shaft is short, recessed in from each end. It has these features because it was designed to be a component within a hybrid transmission, rather than a separate motor.



kevinjclancy said:


> I fear that it is possibly expensive. Am I right ?
> ... where can I buy one of these motors ?


Like most manufacturers of automotive components, the company which makes this motor (was Delco-Remy, then Remy International, now Borg-Warner) does not market these motors directly to consumers. They want to sell them by the tens of thousands to auto manufacturers, not one at a time to hobbyists. I have occasionally seen them listed by distributors, and yes they will be expensive. The other source is to salvage them from vehicles that came with them (as Longbow46 did), but that will usually mean that you get a "cartridge" from a hybrid transmission, so you would need to build a housing.

In a quick search for "borg warner hvh motor" I found one seller - New Eagle - but you would need to login to see prices. It looks like this is the distributor who originally sold the motor which Frank has available.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

My serial wound actually came from a failed car company (Think? - can't remember for sure) but I bought the dual wound from New Eagle.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Frank said:


> My serial wound actually came from a failed car company (Think? - can't remember for sure) but I bought the dual wound from New Eagle.


Thanks.  Are you willing to share the approximate cost of a motor like this (since New Eagle doesn't openly publish prices)?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Another HVH motor source: ELMOFO of Australia want to sell you services, not just parts, but do offer what is obviously an HVH 250-90 (or HVH 250-115), branded "AMR"... which is AM Racing, a company which offers the HVH 250 series, possibly putting their own cases on cartridges that they purchase, and doesn't like to mention that they don't actually make the motor. After two middlemen, both of which are servicing customers with a lot of money, my guess is that the motors are priced like gold bricks of similar weight.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

brian_ said:


> Thanks.  Are you willing to share the approximate cost of a motor like this (since New Eagle doesn't openly publish prices)?


I bought mine about 3 years ago but I'm pretty sure it would be >$6K (IIRC mine was in that ballpark).

It looks like AMR adds a larger sump which means you can use a smaller pump to circulate oil. I made this mod on my series wound but use a scavenge pump from a turbo system on the parallel wound motor. BTW, I noticed that the torque numbers that B-W show on their data sheet are the same for both SOM and DOM (series and parallel) at ~325 N-M; I believe older data sheets always showed the SOM made more torque but I haven't paid attention in awhile. Suffice it to say that the SOM makes a great street motor.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Frank said:


> I bought mine about 3 years ago but I'm pretty sure it would be >$6K (IIRC mine was in that ballpark).


Thanks 
Maybe not bad compared to some other options, given the performance, but certainly significant.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Very true, it's hard to beat the performance of DC series for everyday use but if you need to worry about "hill holding" (potentially burning armature bars or brushes) or regen then PM or AC motors are the only way to go. My primary concern was reliability for land speed racing where heat management is a primary consideration.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Frank said:


> I bought mine about 3 years ago but I'm pretty sure it would be >$6K (IIRC mine was in that ballpark).
> 
> It looks like AMR adds a larger sump which means you can use a smaller pump to circulate oil. I made this mod on my series wound but use a scavenge pump from a turbo system on the parallel wound motor. BTW, I noticed that the torque numbers that B-W show on their data sheet are the same for both SOM and DOM (series and parallel) at ~325 N-M; I believe older data sheets always showed the SOM made more torque but I haven't paid attention in awhile. Suffice it to say that the SOM makes a great street motor.


In addition to the sump, the AMR motors also have an internal oil pump, so you don't have to screw around with an oil loop, just use an oil to WEG heat exchanger and run it in series with the inverter (downstream).


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Frank said:


> BTW, I noticed that the torque numbers that B-W show on their data sheet are the same for both SOM and DOM (series and parallel) at ~325 N-M;


 If you look carefully, you will see that the SOM torque numbers are at 300A (the maximum) and the DOM numbers are at 600A (their maximum). And the torque is indeed the same, as the SOM produces twice as much torque per amp.

But it also produces twice as much V/RPM of back EMF, and since they both have the same voltage rating, the constant power regime of the SOM happens at half of the RPM, and therefore the power output is half. Basically the SOM is just a way to get the same amount of torque with a smaller inverter.


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