# A new battery technology about to emerge!



## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

this link some more info...
http://www.elecsolbatteries.com/products/Batteries


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Wondering about the deep cycle/engine start combo listing.

That is usually not a good combination.

Vuisiting the website, I don't find any EV specific batteries......
Elecsol Batteries
Elecsol Batteries Subcategories
Elecsol BatteriesElecsol Batteries have set the standard for leisure batteries with their unparalleled five year warranty.


Elecsol AGM Carbon Fibre 7 Year Warranty BatteriesThe new range of Elecsol AGM Carbon Fibre batteries with their modern AGM type construction sit alongside their flooded cell counterparts, but offer a seven year warranty. This is the longest warranty of any leisure battery in the UK!


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

No Efan, this is the website for the standard flooded but sealed for life carbon fibre batteries. What I found was scant information on www.tayna.co.uk about new AGM carbon fibre batteries which are awaiting release. Many EV people rate AGM. Combining the features of AGM with carbon fibre which promises "no sulphation" sounds like a real breakthrough for LA. Though admittedly you might expect lower energy density than flooded, perhaps you will be able to discharge more deeply? There is some info. about carbon fibre in the Wiki of this site. It's near the bottom of the 'alternatives to LA' section. (9.0 of Battery technology 201)


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Did anyone find discharge curves for those batts? I would like to evaluate them in my spreadscheet.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Duxuk, please let us know when you get results of testing your batteries! Thank you very much!


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

I still don't have the results, unfortunately, but see the thread in this section about the new AGM Elecsol batteries and you will see why those would now be my choice!


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

So thats because they have a lower weight, right?

I have searched for lead batteries for my EV and found light solar ones. Then I found out, that they are made for LOW discharging rates and that they could be destroyed if they would be discharged too fast...


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> A five year guarantee and 1000 cycles to 80% DOD.


 At what discharge current? Looks like they are designed for solar storage, which is usually low current. Standard fla will last many years in that application.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

I think you have to ask the manufacturer about the rates.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I think some of you aren't clear on whats bieng discussed here, these are the new VRLA batteries:

http://www.tayna.co.uk/product-detail/ElecsolAGMBrochure.pdf

They look very promising for EV use. I'm going to buy 12 of the 135Ah's in the near future .


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Just had a conversation with Elecsol, they told me the following:

Due to low internal resistance of these batteries, there is no limit on the constant current you can pull from them and are safe at 2, 3 or 4C constant with much higher C rates for acceleration bieng quite safe, (over 1400A for 5 seconds on the 135Ah!)

The warranty is a full replacement of battery within 7 years if the capacity drops to 80% or less, *with no limit on either cycles done or DOD used !! *He advised they are perfect for EV use in large series strings and in the event of failure the warranty will be honoured without arguament.

They are around 20-25% lighter than the competitions VRLA Batteries of the same Ah rating!

Sub zero temperature use also only affects capacity by around 8%!

And, of course they are a British built battery!! So you just know QC will be 100% 

Can you tell I'm really exited about these...

Paul


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Some people have said that Steve Gallimore at Elecsol is difficult to talk to but I found him very helpful. I may have mentioned before that he agreed to build me a custom pack of FLA 110Ah batteries which he sold me for a discount and delivered to my door. My batteries give a C1 rate of 62Ah instead of the usual 47Ah. The best news of all is that my trike has finally passed it's MSVA test which is required for registration for road use here. On Tuesday I jump through the final hoop by getting it "inspected" by an administrator who knows nothing about self built cars, then I wait upto 10 days for my registration document. I will have modified it by then to make it suitable for road use (I built it to pass MSVA but I can improve it considerably) then I can give you all some data on the battery performance. Having said that I would not but the FLAs now. I have had my batteries for almost one year. If I was buying now I would buy the new AGM batteries 

EVEN IF I HAD ENOUGH MONEY FOR LITHIUM AND A BMS.

I have followed the EV scene for a few years now and firmly beleive that Elecsol carbon fibre AGM batteries are a significant step forward. If your vehicle has the space and can carry the weight of these batteries I can't imagine any other option can compare. Lithium is lighter but I hear of too many mysterious failures and prices don't seem to be getting significantly cheaper. Also I have heard that if every vehicle was powered by Lithium, the world would not have enough raw materials to build the batteries!

Where are you in England, Paul? If you're close enough I will show you mine if you show me yours (EV that is)

Andrew.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

The batteries info sounds good. I have at least three more years before I will need a new pack. When the time comes I will be considering these for a replacement.
Hopefully there will be some more improvements by then.
Now for the joke! Made by the Britt’s eh? How did they figure out how to make them leak oil? As for lithium a fellow here who seems to be quite bright told me its not the limited supply of lithium in the earth its the lack of an efficient process for extracting the lithium from the ore in large quantities. I tend to believe him as he holds three PhD’s in electronics, math and chemistry.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Well I found Steve at Elecsol perfectly pleasant, offered me a nice deal on 12 batts. and 30 days on account without me asking if I wanted it! I can see that some may find him a little abrupt perhaps, but he is the MD, so I expect he's very busy.

Andrew, I'm in North Lincs. Maybe out of range to drive to you in the electric car!! lol, but in the petrol one would be OK sometime maybe, always happy to talk with other UK EV'ers, there are precious few of us over here! You wouldn't want to see mine yet though, not much progress so far, just battery boxes fitted and instrumentation. Hoping to get a motor in a couple of weeks and move on with it.

As for Lithium, I'd have them, but the cost is huge for us in the UK, with the demise of EVComponents as a safe supplier, the cost now looks like it's going to increase even more, and the UK import duty and VAT addition make them far too expensive. Also Chinese QC is generally very patchy and the best supplier warranties (assuming they stay in business!) is at best 2 years after spending all that money on them!




Regards
Paul


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

I find these specs about the Ecolsol batteries very interesting, but I only want to believe in these if some real person would test them out hardly!


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

I Emailed Steve at Elecsol pointing out that I was only a couple of weeks away from driving my EV on the road (six days a week if all goes well). I pointed him to this thread and offered to change my Elecsol FLAs for the new AGMs if he needed a guinnae pig for a real world test. He hasn't got back to me yet! Maybe he's confident enough to not need any more testing. The weight is little better than my FLAs and the one hour rate is not quite as good, but I would like the assurance of virtual indestructability that the AGMs come with. 

Andrew.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

I also have emailed to Ecolsol:

Good evening,

from the diyelectriccar.com forum I have read about your carbon lead battery technology.

You have mentioned that there are about over 1000 100% DoD cycles. Usually, a lead battery I sensible when it is discharged for about 100%, how can your technology resist that many 100% cycles?
I am also looking for an applicable battery for small electric vehicles like simple e-bikes. Do you provide smaller sizes as well?

Is there a list of suppliers of your batteries as well? I live in Germany, but I am asking for a list for worldwide sellers as well.

What is the max. discharge rate of your batteries?
Is there an actual datasheet of the batteries available?

Do you provide desulphation chargers as well?

Thank you very much for answering my questions.

Best wishes

Kirill Spitzer

This is the answer I got from them:

Sir

Our latest carbon fibre agm catalogue is enclosed

regards

team elecsol

They only enclosed their PDF-information brochure about their batteries like you already posted here. Not very professional as I think, because not all of my questions were answered.
My next email was:

Good evening,

thank you for the brochure.
Unfortunately it doesnt answer all my questions:

You have mentioned that there are about over 1000 100% DoD cycles.
Usually, a lead battery I sensible when it is discharged for about 100%, how can your technology resist that many 100% cycles?
I am also looking for an applicable battery for small electric vehicles
like simple e-bikes. Do you provide smaller sizes as well?

What is the max. discharge rate of your batteries? Ive read that it is even 5C, is that true?

Do you provide desulphation chargers as well?

Thank you very much for answering my questions.

Best wishes

Kirill Spitzer

Since then no answer was given. Maybe you can contact them directly through telephone and ask them also directly about these things?


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

You could get the 'phone number from the Elecsol website and call to ask your questions. With regard to your question about "desulphating chargers" I think it may not be relevant. The carbon fibre grid "insulates" the plates thus preventing, or at least virtually preventing sulphation. Elecsol advise that you do not charge above 14.6V as no equalising charge is necesary and once you reach the gassing point at 14.8V you will lose electrolyte, which cannot be replaced. Have you read the Wiki on this site? There is a little about carbon fibre batteries at the bottom of the "Battery Technology 201-Alternatives to lead acid" section 9.0. 
Elecsol do supply their own 12V chargers for the FLA batteries. I don't know if they are suitable for the AGMs. According to the Elecsol website they charge to 14.5V before dropping to a float voltage.

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duxuk, You're not that far from me, it would be interesting to see how your EV is going with these batteries.

I have yet to commit to my pack in any way so it would be good to have another option available.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Any updates on these elecsol bats? Considering them for "bauer-van".


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

favguy said:


> I think some of you aren't clear on whats bieng discussed here, these are the new VRLA batteries:
> 
> http://www.tayna.co.uk/product-detail/ElecsolAGMBrochure.pdf
> 
> They look very promising for EV use. I'm going to buy 12 of the 135Ah's in the near future .


Based on the numbers from the link you provided the Puekert's exponent of this battery is clearly greater than 1.2. This would be a poor choice for an EV as it means the available capacity at fast discharge rates is considerably lower than the total capacity. In other words, the battery is large and heavy for the range it will provide.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

EVfun said:


> Puekert's exponent of this battery is clearly greater than 1.2.


1.208 based on three points (for 60, 120 and 180 min).


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just comparing a 105ah elecsol with a Odyssey PC2150:

Weight:
Elecsol 24kg , pc2150 34kg.

1hr rating:
Elecsol 49.23A , pc2150 73A

5min rating:
Elecsol 252A , pc2150 438A

I guess the extra lead makes the difference 
Stupid lead!! why does it have to be so damn heavy


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

I am looking for a pack for a second ev I picked up. I have a lot of experience with lifepo4 and fla batteries. I seriously dislike fla (the mess, the smell, the weight.) But I was looking at these cells bacause of published specs. The car is a 98 solectria force designed for 13 gel cells. The numbers/size for the 105ah cell are the same as what it was designed for (except I would save about 250lbs (from about 900lbs.)) The price however would only be $1000 less (assuming I could find someone in the usa selling them) than 48 ts cells at 100ah (80 ah usable) and would save about 600 lbs from the 900 gel cells. So adding $500 or so for the minibms its not really a contest lifepo4 still seems the way to go. Searching for these cells on google brings up just a boatload of people who had issues getting them to honor their warranties. 7 years sounds fantastic but only if I could trust it really would be 7 years. Getting 50ah from a 100ah cell at 1 hour is fine for my needs as I only really need about 30ah to get to work and 40 to get back (I can charge at work.) Is there a usa distributor (i couldnt find anything with google or on their site) I could talk with?

The car is just so well designed for lead (heaters/temp management/suspension built up) that I wouldnt want to discount putting la batteries back in but only if I could get real warranty coverage. 7 years is a LONG time to have them work correctly. 1400 cycles really is only about 5 years for me figuring one cycle to to about 20%soc a day.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

I have been following Ecolocap's carbon nano tube lithion ion battery development for quite some time. Unlike EEStor and other vaporware companies, these folks seem to be legitimate. 

Here are some preliminary specifications for their batteries.

Specifications
...........................................................Standard Lead-Acid Battery .........................................MBTCNT-Battery
Nominal Voltage: .....................................12.0 V .............................................................................12.0 V
Nominal Capacity: ....................................170 Ah .........................................................................1,200 Ah
Dimensions L x W x H: .......................22.1 x 4.9 x 11.1 in. ................................................18.6 x 6.2 x 13.6
Weight: ........................................................117 lbs. ..........................................................................153 lbs.
Energy Density: .......................................17.44 Wh/lb .................................................................94.12 Wh/lb
Discharge Rate @ 17 A: ........................10 hours .......................................................................70.6 hours
Charger Type: .......................................Multi-stage .......................................................................Continuous
Standard Charge Time (10.5v): .....Minimum 8 hours .............................................................45 minutes
MBT System Charge Time: ....................N/A ..............................................................................15 minutes
​


They also published some more recent data summarized in a pdf available at this link:

http://www.ecolocap.com/site/en/doc...tery/nano-lithium-x-battery-test-results.html



Since one of their public announcements said that they were forming agreements between them and "large quantity customers", they also said they were forming agreements with distributors. So I shot of a question to them from the perspective of a DIYer (small quantity customer) to find out a little more about time-line and availability to customers like all of us.

When (if) I get a response, I will post here too.

This product seems like it would solve a lot of range/weight challenges we all face.

Eric


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

????

"Standard Lead-Acid Battery" If it is a sealed AGM type battery the charge time will be less than 4 hours if your charger is able. 

"MBTCNT-Battery" If the "standard charge time" is 45 minutes the charger will have to be pushing 1600 amps! 

Actually, 1200 amp hours is a battery that small isn't even available in Lithium. The whole pack under the hood of my Datsun would only be a 600 amp hour battery if wired up for 12 volts. It is completely out of the league of any lead acid battery I've seen or heard of to date. They have already published data indicating the Peukert's exponent is greater than 1.2 which is also associated with higher internal resistance and longer finish charge times. I'm calling bullshit.

I've been involved in EVs long enough to know that "the greatest battery ever" is always "just around the corner" (coroner would be more accurate.) When (if) it happens they will actually be available because the market for such a battery would be far larger than a few EVers. Anybody for some tri-polar lead-cobalt batteries


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Ecolocap/MBT has been discussed previously in another thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cnt-battery-reali-40957p11.html

I will still follow press releases to see where the Lithium X battery goes........if not the toilet.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

corrected link:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/cnt-battery-reali-40957p11.html


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Thanks EVfun......I can't seem to get the hang of the link thingy.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Hi all,

And for the attention of yarross,

I am going to get a set of these, but my crappy financial situation is delaying things at present. I've spoken directly with the MD of elecsol, who confirms that in the event of loss of capacity beyond reasonable (20%+) within 7 years when in EV use, they will replace with new batteries, as simple as that, irrespentive of cycles.

The warranty issues on the older series cells seem to be due to them never being sold for EV use, they are for RV and solar use, so hence the hassle with warranties when used in EV's. 

Also remember, peurkerts aside, these can be discharged to very low levels without damage, so this helps with range, trying that with ordinary lead batteries will kill them in short order.

But I suppose only use over time will tell the full & true story.... I'm happy to be the guinea pig once I get a set..


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

I have a pack of Elecsol FLA batteries.This thread was begun to draw attention to the new AGM batteries which are the ones carrying the 7 year garuantee. 

My FLAs do give over 50 A in the first hour though they were customised bt Elecsol. The standard one hour rate for the 110Ah FLAs is 47A. Mine were claimed to give 62A. Of course no battery would be expected to last long if you drained it to 100%. I am keeping mine to 50 %, I hope.

I have covered 585 miles so far with no problems. A typical 8 mile trip will leave me with a resting voltage after approx. 5 minutes of 73.5 V or more from my 72V pack.

It's worth mentioning that I will cover 8 miles in <20 minutes so I need to consider the 20 minute rate! I've no idea what that is, I just know that the batteries are performing well.

The AGMs one hour rate is not as good as mine!(But they should take a 100% discharge far better)

Andrew.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Update on Ecolocap's activity. Can I stop holding my breath now?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ec...tery-in-india-2010-07-29?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Eric


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

I sent them an email asking if they could be ordered in the U.S.

When factoring in the ability to do 100% discharges, their deliverable energy per pound of battery(at 1hr and 2 hr rates) compares to the Universal Battery UB121100s... only they have a guaranteed life span which would be compensated by the company should they not deliver, unlike the UBs. Personally, I think they're perfect for low voltage EVs that are streamlined and lightweight, but with heavy packs. Their 250 AH model is perfect for a 96V Zapi Sepex setup in a Geo Metro... 80-100 miles range at 45-50 mph with like-stock acceleration, and possible for a less than $8000 total conversion cost.


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## KirillSp (May 17, 2010)

Do you have any answer yet?

I dont really think that they are serious, because all they have done is sending me their brochure which I already knew about, I asked them a big couple of other questions, but they never answered anymore...


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## The Toecutter (May 30, 2010)

KirillSp said:


> Do you have any answer yet?


No.



> I dont really think that they are serious, because all they have done is sending me their brochure which I already knew about, I asked them a big couple of other questions, but they never answered anymore...


If you check evalbum.com, there is a complete EV listed in Europe that use Elecsol's AGM batteries along with two others in progress, one of which whos owner has the batteries in his possession. It is clear that Elecsol has a working product. Whether or not the warranty will be honored or whether or not it will be sold to Americans are other issues entirely...


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