# Couplers / Hubs



## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Hello my learned and green-ish Brothers and Sisters.

My build:
1984 Jeep CJ-7 - Hyper9HV - IS

I've got everything but the adapter plate and coupler.

Todd at CAN EV is out and I'm not sure I want his standard one right now anyway.

At this point, I don't think it makes much sense to force the coupler to be the same crankshaft to flywheel bolt pattern as the original factory motor.

Given all the accepted knowledge that a lighter, aluminum flywheel is better, I'm going in that direction.

So, the question - I need a vendor / machinist / someone that can help in deciding if I should go with a keyed tapered shaft lock or an interference coupler.

The biggest downside to the interference coupler is, once you heat it up and put it on the shaft of your freshly bought $5k+++ motor, it's on forever. No changing it later.

The downside to the tapered coupler direction is the possibility of not being absolutely flat and fully 'down' on the new motor shaft.

But, if I'm reducing the flywheel to the lightest possible size (within safety and cost ~ 15 lbs or so), I've GREATLY reduced the compounding effect of the original design or the inertia stabilizing design of a flywheel.

So, maybe the combination of a light flywheel with a tapered shaft to a complete new flywheel bolt pattern might be better.

Thoughts? Anybody doing any work in this area?

Thanks,
Patrick


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Meh....if you remove the constraint of getting the coupler off, intact, you can always get the coupler off with a grinding wheel and/or heat.

I would not run a flywheel at all - why have one?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Meh....if you remove the constraint of getting the coupler off, intact, you can always get the coupler off with a grinding wheel and/or heat.
> 
> I would not run a flywheel at all - why have one?


No, that's stupid - grinding off an interference coupled connection is not a real thing. I'd have more luck with wishful thinking.

Why keep a flywheel - which is to say, you're asking me why keep a transmission? 

MANY reasons but I'll narrow it down to 2 words - *transfer case.*

_Get it?_

Any other thoughts - anything?


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Skilled hands and knowing that metals yield doesn't rely on wishful thinking

But I didn't ask you why keep a transmission - you kneejerked and asked yourself that question. You can couple the clutch hub to the motor shaft, and delete the flywheel, or have a coupler made that slides onto the tranny splines. Unlike an ICE, you can shut the torque (current) off to the motor when changing gears. If you put a shaved flywheel in there, all you're doing is creating a potential scatterbomb when it fails. Those usually take legs or feet off in the passenger compartment. 

That's why.

Your project, you're The Decider...


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Skilled hands and knowing that metals yield doesn't rely on wishful thinking
> 
> But I didn't ask you why keep a transmission - you kneejerked and asked yourself that question. You can couple the clutch hub to the motor shaft, and delete the flywheel, or have a coupler made that slides onto the tranny splines. Unlike an ICE, you can shut the torque (current) off to the motor when changing gears. If you put a shaved flywheel in there, all you're doing is creating a potential scatterbomb when it fails. Those usually take legs or feet off in the passenger compartment.
> 
> ...


I'll give you kneejerk - fair enough.

So, in reverse order, bell housings + tub flooring have protected drivers and passengers for a years now from your bouncing betty metaphor so, whatever on that silliness.

As far as the other reasons, a pressure plate configuration is also a safety feature - if, for some insane reason, you don't have a kill switch and your motor runs away, the flywheel will burn up the pressure plate and force will cease to be transferred from motor shaft to transmission input shaft. Seems like there's a ton of safety features that will keep this from happening, loosing my right foot seems to be a stretch - don't you think.

Additionally, a transmission will serve, as it was intended, to reduce the RPM coming from the motor - all kinds of good reasons for that - right, you get that.

Also, in an off-road situation, casual, not hard core rock crawler, you need to be able to develop more torque at high reves - _transmission_.

Now, on to things tethered in reality - *I need a transmission. so, any constructive ideas about the original question - help with a coupler / hub design - I'm looking for anyone that has done those from scratch, vendors, machinist, etc.*

Every time I read anything on this site, I'm constantly reminded of that movie _Mean Girls._

*Real help, no derision please.*

Thanks,
Patrick


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You don't get it. 

You're back to arguing for a transmission, which was never in question.

An electric motor revs normally at 6-10 grand to make its rated horsepower. An ICE, half that...if you build a race motor, sanctioning bodies require a blanket or scattershield around your magic bellhousing.

An electric motor can cut torque to zero with the flip of a switch. It has full torque from zero RPM. It does not produce power pulses that need filtering by a flywheel. "inertial stabilizing" on an electric motor sounds cerebral, but it's a joke.

Whether a clutch and flywheel is there is relevant to your question. Whether a coupler is removable is also relevant.

As I said, your project. You already know the answers, so why ask?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

remy_martian said:


> An electric motor can cut torque to zero with the flip of a switch.


Without some sophisticated electronic controls, there still would be the rotational inertia of the motor's rotor to deal with. This would be at least several times more than the rotational inertia of a clutch disk in a typical flywheel/ clutch disk/ pressure plate set-up. This extra inertia generates more force for the transmission gear synchronizes(syncros) to overcome to shift gears. This is why it can be difficult to shift gears with an electric motor drive that doesn't have the disengaging clutch set-up. This may be unacceptable in J-man's application where he want's to quickly grab a different ratio in the transmission and possibly a high/ low ratio in the transfer case. Or, possibly two wheel to four wheel drive.



remy_martian said:


> An electric motor revs normally at 6-10 grand to make its rated horsepower. An ICE, half that...if you build a race motor, sanctioning bodies require a blanket or scattershield around your magic bellhousing.


I believe the Hyper9 motor has a relatively low operational RPM and as a permanent magnet motor, very unlikely to over-speed. https://evwest.com/support/HyPer_9HV_144V_Performance.pdf
A user of any motor would need to confirm the safety of a given motor/flywheel combination. 

Getting back to your original questions, J man. canEv seems to be one of the few good producers of these critical parts. You might check with the canEV parts retailers to see if they have any back stock, or leads on used parts. The critical areas of concern with the design of the coupling are keeping it attached to the motor shaft. And, if you use a flywheel/ clutch set-up, good axial and radial run-out( as you pointed out), and some provision for a pilot bearing(bushing). The adapter plate must have accurately located and close fitting alignment dowels, just like the OEM bellhousings and canEV plates.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Without some sophisticated electronic controls, there still would be the rotational inertia of the motor's rotor to deal with. This would be at least several times more than the rotational inertia of a clutch disk in a typical flywheel/ clutch disk/ pressure plate set-up. This extra inertia generates more force for the transmission gear synchronizes(syncros) to overcome to shift gears. This is why it can be difficult to shift gears with an electric motor drive that doesn't have the disengaging clutch set-up. This may be unacceptable in J-man's application where he want's to quickly grab a different ratio in the transmission and possibly a high/ low ratio in the transfer case. Or, possibly two wheel to four wheel drive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly and, again, it's needs a transfer case thus, I would have to build a complicated adapter from motor to blah, blah - T*HANK YOU Electro* - I'm giving up on whatever bug is up Remmy's bum, back to the ONLY question I needed an answer to.

So, CAN EV is out of stock till next year, 'first quarter' according to Todd one of the owners. They were my first choice and would have been happy to get that done but, he decided not to sell me his last one or something not worth going into now. Doesn't matter, he doesn't have them and now I'm more interested in making my own.

Does anyone have any other ideas on a shop that has any experience making one?

Thanks,
Patrick


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> An electric motor revs normally at 6-10 grand to make its rated horsepower. An ICE, half that...


Not quite, automotive gasoline engines typically make peak power at something in the range of 4500 to 8000 RPM; a peak under 5,000 RPM is rare, and none produce peak power as low as 3,000 RPM. Yes, slower than typical EV-sized electric motors, but not half the speed.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> An electric motor can cut torque to zero with the flip of a switch. It has full torque from zero RPM. It does not produce power pulses that need filtering by a flywheel. "inertial stabilizing" on an electric motor sounds cerebral, but it's a joke.


It's true that the torque fluctuations of an electric motor are minimal compared to a typical engine and so there is no need for a flywheel, but it doesn't appear from the original post that the intent of the "inertial stabilizing" comment had anything to do with filtering power pulses.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> I believe the Hyper9 motor has a relatively low operational RPM and as a permanent magnet motor, very unlikely to over-speed.


Due to the controller (rather than the PM motor design), an AC motor will not overspeed under its own power - the controller simply won't drive it faster than it is configured to run, even with zero load.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> At this point, I don't think it makes much sense to force the coupler to be the same crankshaft to flywheel bolt pattern as the original factory motor.


I agree. Even the couplers provided by CanEV are related to the original engine's crankshaft flange only by the desire to use the same flywheel that the engine used, so that the same clutch can be used, so that the transmission works with it. You can certainly use a different flywheel and/or clutch (or no flywheel or clutch at all), and select a coupler to suit the combination of components that you are using rather than what the vehicle originally used with an engine.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> If you put a shaved flywheel in there, all you're doing is creating a potential scatterbomb when it fails.


Only if the flywheel is cut down by someone who is massively incompetent. Most the material in a flywheel is there for rotational inertia, not to transmit torque or to support the clutch. An EV conversion doesn't even use the starter ring gear, which (with the material supporting it) accounts for a substantial part of a stock flywheel.

For an example of how minimal a plate to transmit engine torque can be, look at the flex plate from an automatic transmission installation... and keep in mind that it is still larger and stronger than required because it carries the starter ring gear. Of course a plate (whether a modified flywheel or a custom part) used with a clutch needs to be more substantial, because it is one face of the clutch system and it reacts to the clutch clamping force.

The flywheel of our race-prepared Honda was roughly cut in half by a local machinist using a lathe, still retaining the ring gear and using the stock clutch, and it had no problems. A flywheel for an EV could be considerably lighter, without the ring gear, while still using a clutch.

The clutch for an EV - assuming that one retains the clutch for shifting purposes - can be much smaller than it would be for the same vehicle with an engine, because it doesn't need to handle slipping to get the vehicle moving. If using optimal parts the "flywheel" and clutch assembly can be very light, but there's no need to go crazy... it's a Jeep, not a race car.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Didn't know that VW diesels, diesel Toyota minitrucks, and Ford F250 Powerstrokes, all *ICE*, made peak HP above 4500 RPM


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

remy_martian said:


> Didn't know that VW diesels, diesel Toyota minitrucks, and Ford F250 Powerstrokes, all *ICE*, made peak HP above 4500 RPM


I specifically excluded diesels (that's both the VWs and the PowerStrokes), and current Tacoma engines peak at 5500 RPM (4 cylinder) and 6000 RPM (6 cylinder). Yes, diesels are ICE, but the argument that an electric motor produces peak power at twice the speed of a typical ICE based on the slowest-turning ICE - the diesels - is just not sensible. The transmissions, clutches, and flywheels of even those diesels are not in trouble at the speed of motor typically used in a conversion, and the proposed HyPer 9 doesn't run any faster than a common car engine.

By the way, typical EV motors make their full rated power over a speed range starting from about 3,000 RPM to close to their maximum operating speed. The HyPer 9 IS system is not limited in power to protect the battery (because it isn't configured for a specific battery), so it is allowed to produce as much power as the available voltage allows... and the peak power is still reached by 4,000 RPM @ 144 V. If using a transmission, there is no need to run most of these motors any faster than the engine which they replace.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

brian_ said:


> The clutch for an EV - assuming that one retains the clutch for shifting purposes - can be much smaller than it would be for the same vehicle with an engine, because it doesn't need to handle slipping to get the vehicle moving.


From a torque multiplication POV, it's true less slipping is needed. However, most ICE clutch set-ups are designed to produce a higher grip on the clutch disk as RPM increases. This keeps the pedal pressure low at start-up and accommodate the increasing torque produced by the engine as the RPM increases.

Most electric motors can produce their max torque at start-up when the clutch torque capacity is low. This can produce clutch slippage and damage and why some EV converters use high grip racing clutches to try to prevent this.

So, you might want to go bigger, rather than smaller, clutchwise


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

remy_martian said:


> Meh....if you remove the constraint of getting the coupler off, intact, you can always get the coupler off with a grinding wheel and/or heat.
> 
> I would not run a flywheel at all - why have one?


- No one cares Remy, go build your own and stop hijacking threads.



brian_ said:


> Not quite, automotive gasoline engines typically make peak power at something in the range of 4500 to 8000 RPM; a peak under 5,000 RPM is rare, and none produce peak power as low as 3,000 RPM. Yes, slower than typical EV-sized electric motors, but not half the speed.


*- Zackly*


brian_ said:


> It's true that the torque fluctuations of an electric motor are minimal compared to a typical engine and so there is no need for a flywheel, but it doesn't appear from the original post that the intent of the "inertial stabilizing" comment had anything to do with filtering power pulses.


*- Zackly*


brian_ said:


> Due to the controller (rather than the PM motor design), an AC motor will not overspeed under its own power - the controller simply won't drive it faster than it is configured to run, even with zero load.


*- Zackly*


brian_ said:


> I agree. Even the couplers provided by CanEV are related to the original engine's crankshaft flange only by the desire to use the same flywheel that the engine used, so that the same clutch can be used, so that the transmission works with it. You can certainly use a different flywheel and/or clutch (or no flywheel or clutch at all), and select a coupler to suit the combination of components that you are using rather than what the vehicle originally used with an engine.


*- Zackly *
I bought an entire set this morning - the guys over at jeepforum - who are NOT EV experts, helped me figure it out - I'll post what I got in a separate post.

Todd did a great job filling a crazy complicated problem but you're right Brian - it's not ideal at other then in the category of Plug & Play



brian_ said:


> Only if the flywheel is cut down by someone who is massively incompetent. Most the material in a flywheel is there for rotational inertia, not to transmit torque or to support the clutch. An EV conversion doesn't even use the starter ring gear, which (with the material supporting it) accounts for a substantial part of a stock flywheel.
> 
> For an example of how minimal a plate to transmit engine torque can be, look at the flex plate from an automatic transmission installation... and keep in mind that it is still larger and stronger than required because it carries the starter ring gear. Of course a plate (whether a modified flywheel or a custom part) used with a clutch needs to be more substantial, because it is one face of the clutch system and it reacts to the clutch clamping force.
> 
> ...


- Again, *Zackly *

Thanks Brian - I'll post what I ordered this morning next.
Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Based on the jeepforum guys suggestion and talking to the folks at RAM Clutch, I've ordered this package.

Flywheel: *2511 – ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL CHEVY 153 TOOTH - $379*
Clutch package: *88760HDX – HDX CLUTCH SET GM DIAPHRAGM - $299*
Website: https://ramclutches.com/

*Ordered!*


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> From a torque multiplication POV, it's true less slipping is needed. However, most ICE clutch set-ups are designed to produce a higher grip on the clutch disk as RPM increases. This keeps the pedal pressure low at start-up and accommodate the increasing torque produced by the engine as the RPM increases.


This makes sense, except that normal clutches are not centrifugal, so grip doesn't change with speed. Yes, some drag racing clutches have a centrifugal component, but that has about the same relevance to a Jeep CJ with a HyPer 9 as Formula One aerodynamics and suspension tuning.

Does your clutch have levers as shown in this example, preferably including places to put weight on the levers to change the effect?
How to Make Key Adjustments to a Drag Racing Clutch
If not, you don't have a clutch which uses a centrifugal system to engage with more grip at higher speed.



electro wrks said:


> Most electric motors can produce their max torque at start-up when the clutch torque capacity is low. This can produce clutch slippage and damage and why some EV converters use high grip racing clutches to try to prevent this.
> 
> So, you might want to go bigger, rather than smaller, clutchwise


You might want to go more aggressive (in the same sizze), since smooth slipping is not required. On/off behaviour is fine.

For this particular project, given the motor plan, any random clutch used with the Jeep's original transmission should be more than adequate.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Based on the jeepforum guys suggestion and talking to the folks at RAM Clutch, I've ordered this package.
> 
> Flywheel: *2511 – ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL CHEVY 153 TOOTH - $379*
> Clutch package: *88760HDX – HDX CLUTCH SET GM DIAPHRAGM - $299*
> ...


Did you ask if you could get that flywheel without the ring gear, since you have no starter to use it? It looks like the ring gear may be held on by bolts, so you might be able to easily remove it. You can just leave it, since the flywheel inertia is not critical.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Did you ask if you could get that flywheel without the ring gear, since you have no starter to use it? It looks like the ring gear may be held on by bolts, so you might be able to easily remove it. You can just leave it, since the flywheel inertia is not critical.


*Yes Sir I did!*

It'll arrive without the starter ring -_ thinkin, thinkin, thinkin!_

Now, focus all your crazy smarts toward finding me a machinist that has done some coupler / hub / adapter plate work - thanks!


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> This makes sense, except that normal clutches are not centrifugal, so grip doesn't change with speed. Yes, some drag racing clutches have a centrifugal component, but that has about the same relevance to a Jeep CJ with a HyPer 9 as Formula One aerodynamics and suspension tuning.
> 
> Does your clutch have levers as shown in this example, preferably including places to put weight on the levers to change the effect?
> How to Make Key Adjustments to a Drag Racing Clutch
> ...


*You finger tips to gods ear Brian.

FIND ME A MACHINEST* that's done the coupler / hub / adapter plate!

Thanks Brian!


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

I skimmed through the thread, but I still don't understand what's your concern with the coupler, or shaft, or whatever. Are you worried you can't get the tolerances you want for a taper ?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

brian_ said:


> This makes sense, except that normal clutches are not centrifugal, so grip doesn't change with speed. Yes, some drag racing clutches have a centrifugal component, but that has about the same relevance to a Jeep CJ with a HyPer 9 as Formula One aerodynamics and suspension tuning.


The Bellville type spring in a typical stock clutch pressure plate has fingers(where the release bearing pushes on the spring) that are angled back away from the flywheel. Because of this angle, at higher RPM, centrifugal force acts on these fingers to increase spring pressure on the clutch disk. In the same clutch set-up, at low RPM, the pressure on the clutch disk is lower. This makes for lower, easier on the leg muscles, pedal pressure. This is great in ICE vehicles where the engine, at low RPM, has minimal torque output. But, this can be a problem with a EV conversion where the motors maximum torque is available at the first turn of the rotor. (Wrong upload deleted)

This is a common problem in conversion with high torque electric motors. I am surprised you weren't aware of this, brian. And because of this problem, you should not use a lighter duty clutch set-up.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> I skimmed through the thread, but I still don't understand what's your concern with the coupler, or shaft, or whatever. Are you worried you can't get the tolerances you want for a taper ?


No man - I just need a machinist that has had some, any experience with making custom coupler /hubs and adapter plates.

You asking me is the EXACT reason I hate it when someone, that I shall not name, hijacks a thread and drives it off the rails.

*Just find me any machinist with any experience building a coupler / hub and a adapter plate.*

Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks,
Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> The Bellville type spring in a typical stock clutch pressure plate has fingers(where the release bearing pushes on the spring) that are angled back away from the flywheel. Because of this angle, at higher RPM, centrifugal force acts on these fingers to increase spring pressure on the clutch disk. In the same clutch set-up, at low RPM, the pressure on the clutch disk is lower. This makes for lower, easier on the leg muscles, pedal pressure. This is great in ICE vehicles where the engine, at low RPM, has minimal torque output. But, this can be a problem with a EV conversion where the motors maximum torque is available at the first turn of the rotor. This explains this clutch action exactly: https://ramclutches.com/clutch-university-chapter-2/
> 
> This is a common problem in conversion with high torque electric motors. I am surprised you weren't aware of this, brian. And because of this problem, you should not use a lighter duty clutch set-up.


Dude, I'm working with RAM Clutch - they are the ones that assembled my aluminum flywheel and clutch package - this is what THEY are recommending at this point.

_Not the issues_ - please, *find me any machinist with any experience building a coupler / hub and a adapter plate.* 

Thanks,
Patrick


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

I do some machining (though I am not volunteering for this at this time), so I wanted to better understand what the problem is. Can you CAD the parts you need ? Also curious, what is your budget for this particular problem ?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> I do some machining (though I am not volunteering for this at this time), so I wanted to better understand what the problem is. Can you CAD the parts you need ? Also curious, what is your budget for this particular problem ?


I don't have cad drawings _yet _- meaning at all and probably won't until it's built. That's part of the problem I need a machinist for. I have drawings of the the EV motor (the Hyper9HV) and detailed info of the receiving side (flywheel face and bolt pattern, etc.) and a working model / traceable bellhousing that I can have scanned. But no full set of drawings of the single finished parts.

And to answer your second question, about $1,000.

Patrick


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

So you're asking for an engineer who is also a machinist and will design / fabricate you parts solely based on third-party possibly incomplete documentation. I would say you either need to revise your requirements, or step up your budget  First will be more feasible - get your stuff into CAD and model the shit out of it until everything fits together. You can even go as far as 3D printing the models for physical verification. Once you have that, parts can be made either through one of the online joints, or by soliciting on a board like Practical Machinist.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> The Bellville type spring in a typical stock clutch pressure plate has fingers(where the release bearing pushes on the spring) that are angled back away from the flywheel. Because of this angle, at higher RPM, centrifugal force acts on these fingers to increase spring pressure on the clutch disk. In the same clutch set-up, at low RPM, the pressure on the clutch disk is lower. This makes for lower, easier on the leg muscles, pedal pressure. This is great in ICE vehicles where the engine, at low RPM, has minimal torque output. But, this can be a problem with a EV conversion where the motors maximum torque is available at the first turn of the rotor. This explains this clutch action exactly: https://ramclutches.com/clutch-university-chapter-2/
> 
> This is a common problem in conversion with high torque electric motors. I am surprised you weren't aware of this, brian. And because of this problem, you should not use a lighter duty clutch set-up.


That very linked web page says


> The diaphragm pressure plate utilizes a Bellville or conical spring to apply pressure to the pressure ring. This type of pressure plate has multiple fingers that the release bearing presses against to disengage the clutch. Diaphragm clutches rely completely on static pressure which is unaffected by engine RPM.


It goes on to discuss the addition of centrifugal weights and how that is useless in normal applications, then the different designs which can have a centrifugal effect and the extra counterweight feature which must be added to get that effect in those different designs.

I wasn't aware of any significant speed dependence of a conventional clutch assembly because, as confirmed by this clutch manufacturer, it doesn't exist. But the angled finger logic sounds convincing. 

The clutch which Jeep Man ordered - from that same clutch manufacturer - has a conventional diaphragm spring and so will be "unaffected by engine RPM"; it will handle the peak torque the "up to 450 hp" engine producing it (at whatever speed that occurs) at any shaft speed. It would be nice if aftermarket clutch suppliers specified torque transmission ratings, rather than power... but they don't. This is big clutch.

By the way, speed dependence of pedal effort isn't very useful, because full effort would be required on every shift (when the engine is turning fast enough for the clutch to be full engaged)... just while sitting idle for some reason holding the clutch pedal down (waiting for a light to change?).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Just in case this mention of "torque multiplication" confused anyone...


brian_ said:


> The clutch for an EV - assuming that one retains the clutch for shifting purposes - can be much smaller than it would be for the same vehicle with an engine, because it doesn't need to handle slipping to get the vehicle moving.





electro wrks said:


> From a torque multiplication POV, it's true less slipping is needed.


Clutches do not multiply torque, under any conditions. They only transmit it, or not. The purpose of slipping a clutch with an engine is to allow the engine to operate at higher speed than the transmission input speed, allowing the engine to reach a speed at which it can produce higher torque... to be transmitted without multiplication by the clutch. That is not useful with an electric motor, so the clutch is only disengaged to shift, never deliberately slipped for more than the moment it takes to engage.

Jeep Man's new clutch can handle substantial slipping to get a vehicle moving, but that ability won't be needed.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

...not abandoning this thread, I just got stuck at my other job, be back either later tonight or tomorrow.

Sorry for the delay.

Patrick


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

For Gods sake, it's a freaking jeep not a supercar. There's adjustment dowels so you can mildly oversize the bolt holes and use the offset dowels to align it so anyone with a bit of care and a bridgeport can get it close enough from a paper tracing made from the actual parts. You could probably get by with a bandsaw and some dykem. That's how it was done 10 years ago, do a forum search. My flywheel is so thin that I had to use nuts on the attachment bolts. I ran a clutch because my tranny is constant mesh and won't quickly speed shift and doesn't have synchros


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

brian_ said:


> I wasn't aware of any significant speed dependence of a conventional clutch assembly because, as confirmed by this clutch manufacturer, it doesn't exist. But the angled finger logic sounds convincing.


Thanks for catching that, brian. I uploaded the wrong example. And, I can't find the source for my "angled finger" increased clamping force assertion. Let's call it my theory at this point. It is bolstered by the example of some after market clutch makers adding weights to the fingers to increase the clamping force at higher RPM. I would add that the weights increase the already existing centrifugal clamping action of the angled fingers. This feature is of course moot when using most electric motors where the increased clamping force is needed from the first motor rotations.
*Centerforce uses a ring of weights attached to the diaphragm spring fingers to cause an outward bending action at high rpm to force the clutch to clamp harder.*


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> Thanks for catching that, brian. I uploaded the wrong example. And, I can't find the source for my "angled finger" increased clamping force assertion. Let's call it my theory at this point. It is bolstered by the example of some after market clutch makers adding weights to the fingers to increase the clamping force at higher RPM. I would add that the weights increase the already existing centrifugal clamping action of the angled fingers. This feature is of course moot when using most electric motors where the increased clamping force is needed from the first motor rotations.
> *Centerforce uses a ring of weights attached to the diaphragm spring fingers to cause an outward bending action at high rpm to force the clutch to clamp harder.*
> 
> View attachment 124889


Yes, you can add parts to change the behaviour, creating a centrifugal effect where no significant effect exists without them. That specialty Centerforce unit is a nice illustration of how the "weights" (masses) which are usually added to separate levers for drag racing can also work on the fingers of a diaphragm for low-level drag racing (which they call the "Centerforce weight system"). In the end, what all of this means is that an ordinary diaphragm clutch (or a clutch with levers and no added weights) works just as well at low speed as at high speed, so it suits an electric motor with no special considerations for the difference between ICE and electric motor torque-speed characteristics.

In practice, Jeep Man's clutch is intended for 450 horsepower Chevrolet engine applications (according to the manufacturer), which would typically mean something like the current 6.2 L GM pickup truck V8 (L86), which is capable of

420 hp (313 kW) @ 5600 rpm460 lb⋅ft (624 N⋅m) @ 4100 rpm
With a normal diaphragm design, that means that his clutch can handle 460 lb⋅ft (624 N⋅m) at essentially any speed, including from zero and up to at least 4100 RPM. Since a HyPer 9 (either version, any voltage, even at peak) is only capable of about 235 Nm (173 lb-ft) within the rated peak current, that clutch is good for any HyPer 9 or a motor up to almost three times the torque capability.  That would also cover alternatives, such as a Nissan Leaf motor at up to double the factory torque rating.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Hi Guys,

Here's a cool image for reference:


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> That very linked web page says
> 
> It goes on to discuss the addition of centrifugal weights and how that is useless in normal applications, then the different designs which can have a centrifugal effect and the extra counterweight feature which must be added to get that effect in those different designs.
> 
> ...


Hi Brian, 

Both you points are well taken - I wasn't going to bring up the clutch finger disengagement issues right now but rather focus on trying it and seeing what I need to do after.

The one comment about the overall size is very much on my mind for the next version. Totally agree, if the clutch is NOT being used in the traditional form, I could build a motorcycle wet clutch at less then half the size and probably a 1/4 the foot pressure needed to engage it. All great ideas. Don't forget, one of the things the clutch will be used for is the lowest of gears when off-road - in low. So many interesting things to learn once it's in.


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

piotrsko said:


> There's adjustment dowels so you can mildly oversize the bolt holes and use the offset dowels to align it so anyone with a bit of care and a bridgeport can get it close enough from a paper tracing made from the actual parts. You could probably get by with a bandsaw and some dykem. That's how it was done 10 years ago, do a forum search.


For the Motor to Bell-housing adapter plate, yes. Although I believe that is covered now.
What Patrick (Jeep Man) is referring to is the Motor to Transmission shaft-coupler/flywheel-mount. Given the _possibility_ of it seeing the 8000rpm max of the HyPer_9HV motor, it needs precise alignment and balance to prevent damage to the motor and transmission bearings.

[edit]
Having just said that it occurs to me that Patrick (Jeep Man) might want to have the flywheel and pressure plate assembly indexed (clocked?) and balanced to avoid trouble if it ever experiences that high an RPM spike.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

piotrsko said:


> For Gods sake, it's a freaking jeep not a supercar. There's adjustment dowels so you can mildly oversize the bolt holes and use the offset dowels to align it so anyone with a bit of care and a bridgeport can get it close enough from a paper tracing made from the actual parts. You could probably get by with a bandsaw and some dykem. That's how it was done 10 years ago, do a forum search. My flywheel is so thin that I had to use nuts on the attachment bolts. I ran a clutch because my tranny is constant mesh and won't quickly speed shift and doesn't have synchros


*See - look at that - he gets it ~ exactly*. 6 ******** from Alabama can hook up a crate LS engine to a T18 (one of the greatest transmissions every built by Dana) and generate 7,000 Hours Power (slight exaggeration) and drive that beast down the road and straight up a mountain (there are no mountains in AL).

When I make my stenciled outline of the bell-housing, I'm going to use a crayon!

*It's a Jeep.*

Here's a real question - why in the hell doesn't NetGain (motor manufacture) have a splined output shaft - SOOOOO many problems would go away on every conversion.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

GrayRaceCat said:


> For the adapter plate, yes. Although I believe that is covered now.
> What Patrick (Jeep Man) is referring to is the Motor to Transmission shaft coupler. Given the _possibility_ of it seeing the 8000rpm max of the HyPer_9HV motor, it needs precise alignment and balance to prevent damage to the motor and transmission bearings.


Kinda and yes.

Jeeps have great centering 'tells' - the placement dowels (on both sides of the mid-plate) make for an easy shot. The tranny input shaft has some slop built into it, all good.

Correct me if I'm wrong headed here but, seems like (refer to the picture I posted of the motor and tranny) the first and only goal is to build the coupler that will take into account:

Motor output shaft and keyway
Flywheel bolt pattern
Accommodation for the Pilot bushing 

That's it for the coupler - _right_.

Once that's done - the adapter plate will be made to to deal with the thickness issues _AND _the centering for mounting:

Tranny to Bell Housing
Bell Housing to Adapter Plate
Adapter Plate to Motor
Sound right?


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## sharong (Nov 30, 2007)

I am useless with a CAD program. I do have a very good local machinists shop but they have no experience with with EV parts. I am very good with wood work, SOooo I made up all my parts at size in wood. Plywood for plates and turned wood for couplers. I was doing for actual size and fit not strength with the wood parts. If I messed something up I just grabbed a new piece of wood. Once I had everything made the way I wanted I took the wood parts to the machinist shop and he copied the parts out of steel and aluminum. If you have a shop that can copy parts you only need a few wood working tools to make up just about anything you want. Your machinist will know the strengths and tolerances of the metal they are using just let them know what you are doing. If the shop is worth anything they can turn your flywheel, remove the ring gear and anything else you need. I actually did this with my Triumph because I wanted to use different equipment that I could not get conversion parts for.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

sharong said:


> I am useless with a CAD program. I do have a very good local machinists shop but they have no experience with with EV parts. I am very good with wood work, SOooo I made up all my parts at size in wood. Plywood for plates and turned wood for couplers. I was doing for actual size and fit not strength with the wood parts. If I messed something up I just grabbed a new piece of wood. Once I had everything made the way I wanted I took the wood parts to the machinist shop and he copied the parts out of steel and aluminum. If you have a shop that can copy parts you only need a few wood working tools to make up just about anything you want. Your machinist will know the strengths and tolerances of the metal they are using just let them know what you are doing. If the shop is worth anything they can turn your flywheel, remove the ring gear and anything else you need. I actually did this with my Triumph because I wanted to use different equipment that I could not get conversion parts for.


How funny - I was thinking of that exact thing - did you use a lathe?

I have four shops at my house:

Wood working (I make furniture to keep me sane)
Automotive shop
Small electronics shop
Kitchen

Here's my wood shop:









Stupid darkness - all the usual stuff BUT, no lathe.

It's the one wood working tool I don't own. I was looking into getting a starter lather - maybe the Jet - and doing exactly what you suggested.

Did you use a lathe? If so, did you build up your coupler from some decent Baltic birch then turn that - that's what I was thinking but, again, I've never turned - shit spinning out of control then poking it with a sharp tool always seemed risky - I know, I know - I have a table saw without a guard - yes, I know, everything's scary in there.

Tell me how you did it. This is the one I was looking at: Jet Lathe









What do you think - overkill for a roughly 8" coupler?

Patrick


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## GrayRaceCat (Jul 13, 2021)

Jeep Man said:


> Kinda and yes.
> 
> Jeeps have great centering 'tells' - the placement dowels (on both sides of the mid-plate) make for an easy shot. The tranny input shaft has some slop built into it, all good.
> 
> ...


Yes. It doesn't get any simpler.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Just to write about your adapter plate(s) a bit before the coupling(that's what the manufacturers and bearing supply houses call them). With your separate bell housing, with a machined circular hole that indexes it on the transmission, it will be very easy to align the motor output shaft and the transmission input shaft. Here's a video that goes into the basics with an ICE, that's very close to the same procedure with an adapter plate(s):






In your case, you really don't need the offset dowels if someone can drill and ream the dowel holes to the proper size after the adapter plate(s) is aligned with the motor shaft and bell housing. The step on the end housing of the motor indexes in a close fitting hole machined in the adapter plate(s).


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

So that's a spline going to a keyed shaft then ? Something like this ?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> So that's a spline going to a keyed shaft then ? Something like this ?
> View attachment 124906


Did you use my photo from today - shaft to shaft - as reference?

I think you did and I can see why you did.

So, the joint will either be a tapered keyed shaft with a sleeve or an interference coupler.

For the sake of your drating, let's just assume a single piece coupler.

The keyed shaft will be 2" max Depth (L) and 2" Wide (might be a tad less but good enough for now).

The other end will look something like this - *IGNORE the splines* - the outer would be the flywheel face with a pilot busing in the middle instead of the splines.









This would mount to the flywheel. The reason you think the coupler fits over the tranny input shaft is because you don't understand the basic mechanical function of a clutch power transfer. Here's a random video that will clear it up - the power goes from the crank to the flywheel surface which locks up the transmission of rotational energy to the tranny.

So, attaching your animation to the back of this image is the basic coupler / hub. Add the pilot bushing in the middle and wham bam, thank you Ma'am.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Just to write about your adapter plate(s) a bit before the coupling(that's what the manufacturers and bearing supply houses call them). With your separate bell housing, with a machined circular hole that indexes it on the transmission, it will be very easy to align the motor output shaft and the transmission input shaft. Here's a video that goes into the basics with an ICE, that's very close to the same procedure with an adapter plate(s):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hay Electro - that was GREAT! Funny, I just bought my dowel pins (regular, not offset) from Summit so I could put them in my plywood sample adapter plate because the are super easy to index from the existing pins. (_completely unrelated to this subject but related to the wiring aspect of an EV conversion - I also bought a CAN Bus hub from them so cute and will greatly improve the wiring - I'll be happy to share pics and model numbers on a different Thread if anyone needs that info_.)

Still, that video is perfect and helpful for making the adapter plate.

Thank you!


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

I posted a couple things 5 hours ago but they're waiting on the moderator to approve them for some reason - sorry for the delay to some of you.

Patrick


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

People prefer a straight smooth shaft with a keyway over a tooth shaft because the freaking broaches to make them are 6 month's and last I knew $1grand even if you can find a shop that knows how to use them. Really dumb expense for a one shot use. So far at the occasional stoopid, I hit 300 horse on the motor and haven't sheared the key, but did burn the clutch and that's why my pressure plate is now about 3/8 thick.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

Jeep Man said:


> The reason you think the coupler fits over the tranny input shaft is because you don't understand the basic mechanical function of a clutch power transfer.


See, you understand better than anyone else how you want your stuff, you should draw it and show it to us


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> See, you understand better than anyone else how you want your stuff, you should draw it and show it to us


I did - and posted it but for some reason, it's being blocked by the moderators - or held up - don't know - I'm new here.

Here's the drawing again:









And here's an actual coupler for reference also (no, I can't get that one or the guy that posted it from French speaking CANADA - I tried, it's old.).










Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Guys - how do I reach a moderator for this thread - I'm trying to get a reply released from hold?










Thanks,
Patrick


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> The one comment about the overall size is very much on my mind for the next version. Totally agree, if the clutch is NOT being used in the traditional form, I could build a motorcycle wet clutch at less then half the size and probably a 1/4 the foot pressure needed to engage it.


Multiple plates is the solution to multiplying the torque capacity with the same clamping force, but it also multiplies the travel (from fully engaged to just released) of whatever is pressing on the pressure plate(s). If the concern is that pedal effort is too high you can just use a smaller-diameter clutch master cylinder (or higher pedal leverage ratio with a cable-actuated clutch). Multiplate clutches are used in both dry and wet versions, and are usually used just to fit the required capacity into a restricted diameter, not because the job can't be done with a (large) single-disk clutch.



Jeep Man said:


> Don't forget, one of the things the clutch will be used for is the lowest of gears when off-road - in low.


Because the clutch is between the motor and the transmission - ahead of all reduction gearing - what gear (in transmission or transfer case) is being used will make no difference to the torque experienced by the clutch. With an ICE crawling is relevant to the clutch because it may mean more clutch slipping, but of course with the electric motor that doesn't apply - the clutch is never deliberately slipped, just snapped off and on to shift.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Here's the drawing again:
> View attachment 124915


That should make it clear for everyone 

The clutch disk is labelled "pressure plate" and the actual pressure plate and clutch cover are missing, but that doesn't matter to the description of what is needed for a coupler.

I assume that with your specific flywheel, the pilot bushing (or bearing) is mounted in the crankshaft end (which becomes the coupler with your conversion), not the flywheel; that might not be apparent in the drawing because the drawing doesn't show the centre bore of the flywheel. In the photo of a sample coupler, there appears to be a brass pilot bushing inserted.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Based on the jeepforum guys suggestion and talking to the folks at RAM Clutch, I've ordered this package.
> 
> Flywheel: *2511 – ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL CHEVY 153 TOOTH - $379*
> Clutch package: *88760HDX – HDX CLUTCH SET GM DIAPHRAGM - $299*
> ...


Just curious... why the aluminum flywheel (#2511), instead of one of the same supplier's steel flywheels (#1510-10 or #1510-12)? The steel units are simpler and lighter, and substantially cheaper. Is the ring gear integral on the steel flywheels, so the aluminum was chosen to make it easy to omit the ring gear?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Somewhat to Brian's point - I need to adjust my drawing - in the mean time, here's a great illustration of parts.

I'll adjust my drawing to conform.









Thanks Brian!


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Guys - how do I reach a moderator for this thread - I'm trying to get a reply released from hold?


Just FYI, for anyone else reading this thread...

DO NOT go private messaging moderators because your post is waiting approval.

If it's waiting approval, the correct course of action is to *WAIT* FOR APPROVAL. Just like it says.

The forum software's AI uses Akismet which flags suspicious posts as spam, in addition to many other spam detection methods. On these forums, for brand new users it flags false positives like, 90% of the time. These show up in a queue to moderators, who go through the list and either confirm them as spam or let them through.

The moderators who do this here are like, at least 95%: Me.

And I log in here usually about once a day, maybe I'll be gone a weekend or whatnot.

If you PM me, I will get it when I next log into the forums. Which is the same time I will notice the flagged comment queue and report queue. It is no faster, it is more annoying to have to clear 2 places instead of one.

This advice remains true as long as I'm active here, and, if I'm not active here, then, it'll be time to recruit new moderators anyway.

Otherwise, carry on.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeep Man said:


> Somewhat to Brian's point - I need to adjust my drawing - in the mean time, here's a great illustration of parts.
> 
> I'll adjust my drawing to conform.
> View attachment 124920
> ...


I believe that the current goal is to get an adapter which makes the motor's shaft "look like" the end of the crankshaft in the illustration, complete with the flange for mounting the flywheel and accommodation for the pilot bushing. The flywheel and everything to the right of that are all taken care of.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

HV Junction Box 

Guys, in a multi-tasking sorta' way, I'm starting my HV Junction Box.

Do you need have a recommendation for a link on this site for HV Junction Box discussions or start a fresh one?

Thanks,
Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> I believe that the current goal is to get an adapter which makes the motor's shaft "look like" the end of the crankshaft in the illustration, complete with the flange for mounting the flywheel and accommodation for the pilot bushing. The flywheel and everything to the right of that are all taken care of.


Yes Sir, that's the goal of this thread.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> That should make it clear for everyone
> 
> The clutch disk is labelled "pressure plate" and the actual pressure plate and clutch cover are missing, but that doesn't matter to the description of what is needed for a coupler.
> 
> I assume that with your specific flywheel, the pilot bushing (or bearing) is mounted in the crankshaft end (which becomes the coupler with your conversion), not the flywheel; that might not be apparent in the drawing because the drawing doesn't show the centre bore of the flywheel. In the photo of a sample coupler, there appears to be a brass pilot bushing inserted.


Both are correct - that end of coupler will be acting as the end side of the crankshaft from the engine. Here's the actual picture of the original end of the crank showing the pilot bushing:









Better - clearer?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

brian_ said:


> Multiple plates is the solution to multiplying the torque capacity with the same clamping force, but it also multiplies the travel (from fully engaged to just released) of whatever is pressing on the pressure plate(s). If the concern is that pedal effort is too high you can just use a smaller-diameter clutch master cylinder (or higher pedal leverage ratio with a cable-actuated clutch). Multiplate clutches are used in both dry and wet versions, and are usually used just to fit the required capacity into a restricted diameter, not because the job can't be done with a (large) single-disk clutch.
> 
> 
> Because the clutch is between the motor and the transmission - ahead of all reduction gearing - what gear (in transmission or transfer case) is being used will make no difference to the torque experienced by the clutch. With an ICE crawling is relevant to the clutch because it may mean more clutch slipping, but of course with the electric motor that doesn't apply - the clutch is never deliberately slipped, just snapped off and on to shift.


*GREAT point Brian* - didn't think about that. Doesn't matter right now since you know the new clutch package I'm getting next week but, very good point for the next iteration - thanks!


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## ToyXCAB89 (Oct 6, 2012)

This is the same problem that I have also. I checked with Can EV, EV West, etc... and they do not have an adapter plate and coupler for my Corolla. I will be keeping the clutch.
I cut off the end of the crankshaft and I took it to a machinist. He bored out 1 1/8 and cut the keyway.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Looks like a good design. Did you originally post a picture with a one piece, single bolt, collar? One test of this design would be to put it with the flywheel on(torqued down, of course) and off the motor shaft several times, checking the flywheel run-out with each set-up.

Also, you might consider using an even number of slots cut into the hub of the coupling, to better balance the clamping action.


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

Does this look closer ?


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## ToyXCAB89 (Oct 6, 2012)

Looks great


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## boughtnotbuilt (Oct 31, 2020)

brian_ said:


> Just curious... why the aluminum flywheel (#2511), instead of one of the same supplier's steel flywheels (#1510-10 or #1510-12)? The steel units are simpler and lighter, and substantially cheaper. Is the ring gear integral on the steel flywheels, so the aluminum was chosen to make it easy to omit the ring gear?


Wow, I couldn't believe the steel was lighter until I saw this. That's certainly a lot lighter than the beast I put on my rig. When I tear it down again, I'll have to upgrade to steel.

Sorry for brief hijack. 

Cool project - maybe we can good EV wheeling next year.


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Sorry all - I've been dealing with work - what a headache - why can't I just fool with my build!!!

Anyway, I've got to reply to several things BUT, NEWS - I got my bench test full throttle control spin test done!!!!

All my electronics are now done (_sans a couple Thermistor and BMS thingys._...) - a milestone in any build.

6 weeks from first delivery of first parts to today - it feels GREAT getting to this point!!!


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

Actual Coupler Update

I found this guy in Iowa that is building the coupler - assuming it works, I'll list his contact info on here so others can reach out to him.

I shipped him the new bald flywheel, alignment tool, pilot bushing and flywheel to crank (flywheel face of the coupler) special bolts.

I'm having him build three things for me:

A fitment version - no need to heat it to expand to fit, it'll slide on and off and lock with keyway.
straight motor shaft to transmission input shaft version for alignment and general good times testing
Final heat-to-expand coupler

I should hear back from him this week - oh wait, that's tomorrow - I'll let you know.

The guess-timate is under $600 and substantially less once the first one is done for the final verison - not including the other versions.

Ok, now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go down to my bench and fiddle with my working motor....








(does all this electricity make my belly look bigger - I think it does.....)

- Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> Does this look closer ?
> 
> View attachment 125199
> 
> View attachment 125198


*MUCH closer!*

The flywheel flange side has to have the ring around it for proper flywheel centering fitment.










Ignore the bolt pattern - doesn't match my set up.

Notice the pilot bushing is inset. That outer collier is, as I see this picture, part of the shaft and an outer flange was either added and drilled or added and milled down - you can tell because the keyway set screws align with the notch for the keyway at 1-o'clock on the front - same starting piece of mental tubing / straight shaft.

Patrick


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

electro wrks said:


> Looks like a good design. Did you originally post a picture with a one piece, single bolt, collar? One test of this design would be to put it with the flywheel on(torqued down, of course) and off the motor shaft several times, checking the flywheel run-out with each set-up.
> 
> Also, you might consider using an even number of slots cut into the hub of the coupling, to better balance the clamping action.


Testing run-out will have to be done, for sure. I didn't build that one - I'm building my fist one now. The second I have it in my hot little hands, I'll post a 1,000 pictures of it.

- Patrick


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## cricketo (Oct 4, 2018)

I can make adjustments to the model, but if you found somebody to fabricate the stuff for you then perhaps there is no point ?


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## Jeep Man (Sep 21, 2021)

cricketo said:


> I can make adjustments to the model, but if you found somebody to fabricate the stuff for you then perhaps there is no point ?


Perhaps but, I'm not the only person that will need one - technically, everyone that does a conversion will need one.

The thing that might prove interesting is identifying all the key measurement points - you know, A through M:
A - motor shaft diameter
B - motor shaft minimum length
C - keyway size
D - pilot busing yes / no
if yes, D1 - depth, D2 - wall thickness, D3 - ID,. D4 - OD
E - flywheel flange min. thickness
F - etc.....

- Patrick


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## ToyXCAB89 (Oct 6, 2012)

Jeep Man said:


> *MUCH closer!*
> 
> The flywheel flange side has to have the ring around it for proper flywheel centering fitment.
> 
> ...


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