# 86 Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build Thread



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Good afternoon,

After years of pondering, months of researching online, and countless hours reading various posts on the DIY Electric Car forum (and many others), I have finally come up with a list of components that I believe should meet my EV conversion goals.

My goals for an 80's era Dodge Daytona EV are relatively modest:*Acceleration* - The finished car (with the Manual Transmission) should be ‘peppy’ and ideally have equal (or greater) acceleration to what the original 2.2L Turbo 1 (142 HP) 4 Cylinder engine with Automatic Transmission had.

*Speed* – Although primarily a daily city commuter (45 mph or lower), ideally I would like to be able to take it up on the highway when/if needed (75+ mph) for relatively short periods of time.

*Range* – Only 20 to 40 miles per charge should be fine for my needs.

*Climbing* – I live in Central New York State, surrounded on all sides by some fairly sizable hills. They are not true mountains or anything, but there are several ski resorts within 20 miles in each compass direction, so even moderate driving will likely involve going up and down hills (15% grade or more is common).

*Weather* – It gets pretty cold in these parts and we get a fair amount of snow during the winter months. While I don’t ‘intend’ to drive my classic vehicle much in the snow (as the salt on the roads tends to eat car bodies for breakfast), there is always the possibility of driving to work one morning all bright and sunny, then driving home in a blizzard. Thus, the EV components I select need to be able to survive in fairly extreme weather.

*Capacity* – The original vehicle seats 4 (a bit cramped in the back seat, but usable) with ample room in the hatchback for groceries and so forth. I would like to keep the interior compartment as close to a stock as possible, within reason.

*Budget* – I am anticipating spending approximately $15,000 for all EV specific parts, including everything down to the cable, lugs, battery boxes, and batteries. I already own the donor in question, along with a Manual Transmission, shifter w/ cables, & new clutch kit. At this point I am still searching for a new flywheel and clutch pedal assembly.

*Complexity* – I want to keep everything as simple and maintenance-free as possible. For example: I have no desire to mess with measuring and/or topping off Flooded Lead Acid Batteries, or deal with Lithium cell BMS, balancing, and heating issues.

*Objective* – I enter into this project with no formal training or experience with any automotive mechanical or electrical systems. This is a get-my-hands-dirty, figure-it-out-as-I-go process and I am doing this purely for the fun and learning opportunities involved.
​Since range is not as important to me as acceleration, my theory is that a low voltage (96v, 108v, or 120v) system based on 12v Sealed Lead Acid AGM batteries would be the best energy-per-pound-per-cost solution available at this point in time.

I have read that 12v batteries in an EV pack will typically only last between 6 to 12 months before they need to be replaced, but for ‘only’ ~$2,500 per year, they still seem to be a lot more straight-forward and are considerably less expensive than LiFePo4 batteries at today’s prices.

Thus, I am willing to sacrifice the added longevity, reduced weight, and extended capacity (range) in the name of lower up-front-cost, less wiring, lack of ongoing maintenance, and overall installation simplicity.

Here is the proposed specific components for my conversion (note that all values listed are rough approximates and should not be taken as gospel):

*Donor:* 1986 Dodge Daytona Turbo-Z (Specifically This One: link )
~ 2700 lbs (Original Curb Weight)
Automatic Trans to be converted to a Manual (A555)
​*Transmission Adapter:* Electro Automotive Custom Adapter Kit link
~ $845 (including shipping)
​*Batteries:* Power + 12V Deep Cycle 120 AH AGM link
9x (Including Accessories Battery)
~ $250 each (~$2,562 total, including shipping)
~ 67.5 lbs each (607.5 lbs total)
~ 13” x 7” x 9” each
​*Charger:* Russco SC 30-120 with Triple-Stage (3S) Option link
~ $1,290 (plus shipping)
~ 20 lbs
~ 8” x 6.5” x 10”
​*DC-To-DC Converter:* Kelly HWZ Series DC/DC Convertor 96V to 13.5V 25A link
~ $150 (plus shipping)
~ 5.5 lbs
~ 6.75” x 4.75” x 2.75”
​*12V Contactor:* Tyco Kilovac 500A 320V EV200 12V w/ Aux Contacts link
~ $169 (including shipping)
 ~ 1 lbs​*Throttle:* EVnetics Soliton Throttle Assembly link
~ $160 (plus shipping)
​*Power Brake Vacuum:* EV Source Brake Booster Kit w/ Reservoir link
~ $405 (including shipping)
​*Power Steering:* EV Source Electric Power Steering Pump 12V Kit link
~ $834 (including shipping)
​_*** Option #1 – AC *** _

*Motor & Controller:* High Performance Golf Cars AC50-01 & Curtis 1238-7501 link
~ $4,500 (plus shipping)
~ 122 lbs (Motor)
~ 18” x 9” x 10” (Motor)
~ 22 lbs (Controller)
~ 11” x 9” x 4” (Controller)
​*24V Contactor:* Albright SW 200, 24 VDC Coil link
~ $249 (including shipping)
 ~ 1 lbs​_
*** Option #2 – DC ***_

*Motor:* Netgain WarP 9 link
~ $2,090 (including shipping)
~ 166 lbs
~ 17” x 10” x 10”
​*Controller:* SOLITON 1 300v 1000a link
~ $3,314 (including shipping)
~ 33 lbs
~ 20” x 9” x 6”
​(To be continued...)


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

(Continues...)

Prior to laying down the cash to purchase the components listed, I am interested in feedback from the community on what they think of the specific parts I have selected and to highlight any ‘red flags’ and/or suggest alternatives that are less expensive (or just plain better in their opinion). 

In particular, I am interested in opinions on the relative strengths and weaknesses of an AC system based on the HPGC AC-50 motor with Curtis 1238 controller in comparison to an identical setup with a DC based Netgain WarP 9 motor with Soliton1 controller.

Based on what I have read thus far, this is what I ‘think’ I know about these two setups…

AC System:I like the mechanical simplicity of the AC motor (no parts to wear out) and the concept of the minor regenerative braking gains to extend range a bit. The AC50, with a peak of approximately 52 HP & 90 ft/lbs of Torque @ 3000 RPM @ 96 volts & 550 amps, sure sounds rather ‘peppy’ to me. 

The Curtis 1238 controller, requiring an additional $500 for the hand-held programmer or PC software package just to adjust minor settings (like configuring it for a different pot box) is rather unappealing. Also, unless I am mistaken, reports seem to be that it gets pretty toasty running at 108v (without forced air cooling), and I am not clear at this point if it could even handle a 120v pack without burning itself up as it apparently shuts down at 130v.
​DC System:I read somewhere that DC motors don’t do terribly well on hills, lacking sufficient torque to accelerate quickly up a steep inclines, and don’t have regenerative braking for downhill slowing/energy recovery ( without additional components and/or expense). I have been unable to find exact specs on the Warp 9 running at 96 volt & 550 amp for a direct HP & torque comparison, but from the available 72 volt graphs, it ‘seems’ like it would be quite a bit less ‘peppy’ than the AC50…

The Soliton1 controller, although somewhat heavier than the Curtis AC controller, has better thermal cooling, can handle a great deal more power, has data-logger output capabilities, and the ability to modify settings on a simple web browser based interface via a standard Ethernet interface. Overall, I am very impressed with both its design as well as the close EV community involvement & communication from its developers.
​I have been following the projects using the HPGC AC50 of both Tomofreno and JRP3 with great interest. Dimitri’s DC project and his testing of the Soliton1 has also been very helpful and illuminating. Finally, the online video saga of my personal hero, Kyle Meier ( link ) and his 86 Dodge Daytona project have also proven to be very inspirational. 

I just need to decide which route to take with my Dodge Daytona EV conversion, and would very much appreciate any suggestions and opinions the folks on this forum have before I bite the bullet and make these expensive component purchases.

Thank you all for your time in reading my extremely lengthy (first) post,

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Good afternoon,

Since my initial posting, I have continued to follow closely tomofreno’s postings relating to the HPCG AC-50 motor and Curtis 1238-7501 controller in his SwiftE project. I believe he said his EV takes approximately 18 seconds to accelerate from 0 to 60. Since he is using a significantly lighter chassis than my Daytona, along with LiFePO4 batteries instead of the SLA AGM’s that I plan on using, logic dictates that my acceleration rate would be correspondingly slower with that same motor and controller setup.

As a result, along with the reasons stated in my initial post, I decided to proceed with a DC setup based on the WarP 9 motor and Soliton1 controller. As this motor & controller can function on a wider range of voltages, I will have more flexibility in adding more power above and beyond my original 120V configuration on an as-needed basis. Also, since this setup can operate with only a single 12V battery (for a short period of time), I can test out my wiring and mechanical connections relatively safely, without requiring a high voltage pack to start with.

I have ordered and received the following EV parts so far:
EVNetics Soliton 1 Controller
EVNetics Soliton Throttle Assembly
Netgain WarP 9 Motor
Netgain WarP Speed Sensor
EV Source Brake Booster Kit
EV Source Electric Power Steering Pump 12V Kit
Tyco Kilovac 500A 320V EV200 12V w/ Aux Contacts
Blue Sea Systems ANL Fuse Block & 600 AMP Fuse​ Mike, from EV-Propulsion, has been very helpful in answering my questions and he was even kind enough to review/give me his opinion on the Metropolitan Industries SLA AGM batteries that I am looking at purchasing. On paper they appear to be lighter, less expensive, and have a higher energy capacity than the various other brand & model SLA AGM batteries out there. However, due to my limited knowledge on the subject, I was unsure if I was missing something crucial in the specs, and am very appreciative of Mike for looking into them on my behalf.

I also contacted Electro Automotive and ordered a Transmission Adapter kit from them. Unfortunately, they need some extremely precise measurements for the “magic distance” between the flywheel and the original ICE mounting surface of the transmission. Since my donor vehicle originally had an automatic transmission & flex-plate, I did not have a flywheel or the non-standard sized bolts necessary to mount one to the ICE crankshaft. After special ordering these, I was able to finally take the necessary measurements and get them emailed to Electro Automotive.

In other news: Rather than gutting my 1986 Dodge Daytona Turbo-Z right away, I have decided to instead make use of a 1988 Dodge Daytona Pacifica for my first EV conversion donor vehicle. I happened to have one sitting in my backyard which already had its ICE and Trans removed and it is a perfect “project car” to try stuff out on without worrying about ruining it.

Since the engine compartments are identical on these two models, my plan is to create mountings for all of the EV components in a modular fashion so they can be (relatively) easily be removed and transferred to the 86 Daytona chassis down-the-road.

I have removed all of the remaining ICE components from this vehicle such as the gas tank/gas lines, muffler, and all other unnecessary junk from the engine compartment. I also removed all wiring from the original harness that was no longer necessary, leaving only those lines that were routed back through the firewall to the main disconnect. Some of this wiring will be utilized in the future to hook up the original instrument cluster and gauges to the new EV components. At this point all originally installed electronics are tested and working including the interior and exterior lights, blinkers, heater blower, power windows, horn, radio, wipers, etc.

My next step is to complete the automatic -> manual transaxle conversion. It took a while to locate all of the parts necessary, including the Transmission, Flywheel, Clutch, Pressure Plate, Shifter, Shifter Cables, Shifter Center Console Rubber Boot, Clutch Pedal Assembly, Clutch Cable, and the manual transaxle motor mount which ended up having a different bolt pattern than the automatic one had. As of this past weekend, I finally now have all of the mechanical parts necessary to complete this stage of the conversion process.

Jason


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jason,

I just wanted to comment that you have a very well thought out and realistically planned project and it will be successful.

Your biggest variable is battery range and performance. There is no doubt that motor and controller will not be your bottlenecks, but your battery will be a bottleneck for sure, especially considering your hills. I am glad you have realistic understanding of SLA battery lifecycle.

I personally would not throw away $2500 per year on SLA when you can get comparable size LFP pack for $7000.

I don't know where you got the idea that SLA battery does not need any management or maintenance, SLAs tend to get out of balance, expecially when Soliton1 is sucking the life out of them every day.

Clearly you are making logical choices and I am not here to sway you one way or another, but I can look into my crystal ball and say that once you drive your SLA based EV for a month, you will start planning LFP upgrade 

Good luck with the build!


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Dimitri,

Thank you for the feedback, it is much appreciated. 

I think your crystal ball will likely be spot-on, as my "lead sled", with all that extra battery weight will end up with less than ideal acceleration...

However, I am hopeful that during the next year or so that battery technology will continue to improve and that LiFePo4 V2 (or whatever comes next) will have more storage capacity, be even lighter, cheaper, and more tolerant with regards to temperature and deep discharge than today's cells.

So at this point I am willing to take the risk and waste $2,500 on the SLA pack just to get my EV on the road as soon as possible. I can always replace the pack fairly easily down-the-road. Likely this will happen about the time that I swap the EV guts from the 88 chassis to the 86 (along with new battery boxes and such).

I have also continued doing research and my understanding is that the Rusco charger I was originally planning on getting will not work with LiFePO4 batteries...

Therefore I am leaning toward spending about 3 times as much for a Manzanita, which apparently works well with both SLA and LFP, supports a wider range of voltages, and can push more amps for a faster charge (given appropriate wiring in the garage, of course).

*Charger:*
 Manzanita Micro PFC-40 (Air Cooled With Meter) link
 ~ $3,100 (plus shipping)
 ~ 19 lbs
 ~ 13” x 9” x 6”​ Thoughts, recommendations, corrections, all are welcome. 

Thank you,

Jason


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

I checked out the link you posted for those SLA batteries, they only have 60Ah 1 hour rate, which is pretty low. Considering you will pull 300+ Amps from them during heavy acceleration, you will murder them very quickly and your range will be likely less than 20 miles.

Also, why use 60+ LB battery for aux battery with DC-DC converter? That's a waste of space and weight, just use a smaller SLA battery, like the one from garden mower or a bike or UPS. I use $30 battery from a mower, works fine, although there are times when it runs low under load and my DC-DC struggles to keep up.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Pretty much any charger can work with LiFePo4 cells if you have BMS with HVC connected to the charger. See my MiniBMS User Guide for explanation.

I personally would not spend extra 2 grand on Manzanita, but that is just my personal opinion, apparently many people are happy with it.

LiFePo4 cells are more forgiving to charging profiles than SLA cells, they just need a simple CC/CV profile, which can be done by practically any charger. They can also take lots of current without a problem. There is too much mystery around LiFePo4 charging, its actually simpler than any other battery chemistry.


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Dimitri,

_With regards to the Metropolitan Industries LW20104 batteries:_I did a fair amount of poking around and was unable to find any other comparable 12v SLA AGM batteries that had a 1 hour rating as high as the 62 AH these list on their specs. There are various 6v batteries, and some 12v flooded ones with higher ratings, but nothing in the 12v non-flooded variety that I could locate... But, if you can point me in the direction of such a beast, I would be very interested in checking it out. ​_With regards to the Accessories battery:_I was thinking of using one of the extremely heavy "same as pack" batteries for this purpose, one because it might have enough capacity to not need to be re-charged while driving (drawing off the pack via the DC-To-DC converter) and could just be recharged at home when the main pack is being charged instead. The other reason was that it might be able to be utilized in an emergency/stranded on the side of the road with a dead main pack situation as a "limp home" type of deal for a couple miles at minimal speeds... Perhaps?​_With regards to the LiFePo4 batteries and charger:_Luckily I haven't purchased the batteries or charger quite yet (as I am focusing on the mechanical aspects of the conversion first), so I still have some more time to keep researching the options in that department.

I am curious about the $7,000 LFP 120v pack that you mentioned would comparable in terms of AH capacity to the ~$2,500 AGM 120v pack. When I looked into the ThunderSky and SkyEnergy batteries a month or two ago, I kept coming up with $10,000 to $12,000 for a comparable capacity pack... Perhaps I wasn't comparing the correct apples or I was looking in the wrong place?​Thanks again,

Jason


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Jason,

amount of energy used by 12V aux systems is negligible compared to energy used to propel the car, so there is no sense in worrying about it. You would waste more by lugging extra 50-60 Lb around. Plus, one battery won't help you to limp home, the car won't move on single 12V battery. Some people skip DC-DC and use larger aux battery and charger it separately, but IMHO its much easier to use DC-DC and small aux battery.

I am not familiar with SLA batteries to offer any better choices, I am just stating that even though your choice may be the best out there, it will still suck at propelling your car up those hills and you will be disappointed.

35 of these cells should come to about $7000 http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP160AHA

However, since you have Soliton1, I would recommend to get 40 - 45 cells if you can afford it. 35 cells is a bit too low voltage for hill climbing, IMHO.


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Dimitri,

Thank you again for your input and recommendations!

With the pricing from that link, it appears to be approximately $7,920 for 45 of those bad boys (looks to even include shipping?)... That is considerably less expensive than I was running into before, so is well within the realm of possibility, and certainly makes me reconsider bothering with my SLA AGM 'temporary' plan at all.

I'll need to do more research to better understand these batteries, and run a bunch of calculations to see how many I can realistically cram into my little Dodge Daytona's, but your insight has been extremely helpful! 

The only thing about the DC-To-DC converters that bothers & confuses me is that the ones I have been able to locate seem to all be locked into a specific pack voltage at the factory and don't have any user-adjustable voltage options.

Since the Soliton1 controller and Manzanita charger seem to be capable of a nice wide range of voltages, I just hate to be locked into a specific number of batteries because of the sole limitation of the DC-To-DC converter... This is why I have also held off purchasing that component, figuring it will be the absolute last thing I buy, when I am certain of the final pack voltage.

Thanks again!

Jason


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Actually typical DC-DC converters used in EVs like this one have pretty wide input voltage range. However, you'd still need at least 40 LFP cells to use these IOTA DC-DC to get minimum voltage. I am using this one with 40 cells and sometimes under heavy load it dips a little low. With 45 cells it will work perfectly.

http://www.evparts.com/prod-DC2461.htm

BTW, EVComponents prices don't include domestic delivery and 10% surcharge, so please make sure you have all your numbers right. Still, you would get much better performance and longer life from these 160AH cells and considering the lifecycle difference these will be half the cost of SLA pack in the long run.

Even with 160AH LFP cells you would need to limit Soliton1 battery current to avoid over 3C discharge to keep the batteries alive longer.


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Good afternoon everyone,

There were some significant delays in getting my Transmission Adapter kit crafted by the machine shop that the Electro Automotive folks use. I had ordered it back in early December and it did not arrive at my door until March 17th. However, I am very impressed with the quality of the craftsmanship and everything fit together perfectly with no issues what-so-ever. Therefore, I am very pleased with the adapter kit overall and will likely order my next one from them as well.

Since the arrival of those crucial parts, I have been very busy working on my EV Daytona project once again, and over the last week I have:

1.) Removed the larger automatic transmission brake pedal and installed the smaller manual brake pedal, clutch assembly, & clutch cable.

2.) Removed the automatic shifter & center console and installed a manual shifter, both shift cables, and different center console (with shifter boot, etc.)

3.) Installed the A555 Manual Transmission, both drive shafts, and the special intermediate shaft between the transmission and passenger side drive shaft.

4.) Unboxed my shiny new WarP 9 motor, attached the motor spacer ring to it, the transmission profile plate to that, and finally attached the taper lock bushing and hub to the motor shaft.

5.) Attached my brand new flywheel to the taper lock hub, then centered the clutch to that, and finally attached the pressure plate to the flywheel.

6.) With these components assembled and suspended from my engine hoist, I gently swung the motor above the engine compartment and lowered it into place. The adapter plate was then secured to the transmission using the various length bolts, washers, lock washers, and nuts I had pre-measured and purchased for this purpose.

7.) With the passenger side of the motor remaining supported by the engine hoist, I then addressed the problem of how to tie in the motor mount on that side to the WarP 9. I do not have a welder nor know how to use one, so I poked around at a local hardware store and came up with an approach involving angled steel pieces that have pre-drilled holes at regular intervals. I cut lengths of these and bolted them all together securely to form a solid metal frame supporting that end of the motor. It looks a bit like a giant Erector set, but is quite sturdy and is easily adjustable. Time will tell if it holds up to the rigors of on-road use, I guess we'll see...

8.) The last remaining mechanical piece that needed to be handled was to figure out some way of supporting the intermediate drive shaft. This was previously secured directly to the bottom of the ICE engine. After quite a bit of futzing around, I was able to incorporate some additional supports tied into my angled steel motor mount, the lower-left transmission bolt, and the front motor mount for this purpose.

Now that the drive train is assembled and secure, I will be moving on to the electrical side of things. At this point I believe I have all of the parts needed with the exception of the batteries, charger, DC-to-DC converter, cabling, lugs, and protective terminal caps.

I have continued to wrestle with the issue of which battery technology is right for my first EV project, crunching the numbers, measuring spaces in the car, running pro-verses-con scenarios and generally flailing about in rampant indecision.

See the following post for an in-depth review on that very topic...

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Here are the two battery types I am considering/comparing for use in my first EV project:

-------------------------------------
Thunder Sky 3.2v 200AH LiFePo4 Cells
-------------------------------------

~140v = 48 Batteries (including 4 Spares from same lot)

~$220 = ~$12,424.38 (total, including shipping)

~13.22 lbs = ~582 lbs (pack)

~11" x 7.25" x 2.75" (each)

Cycle Life > 3000

Spec Sheet: http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2008926101921.pdf



-------------------------------------------
Metropolitan Industries 12v 120AH SLA Cells
-------------------------------------------

~144v = 12 Batteries

~$250 = $3,435.12 (total, including shipping)

~67.5 lbs = ~810 lbs (pack)

~13" x 6.75" x 9" (each)

Cycle Life = ~800

Spec Sheet: http://www.metropolitanind.com/Literature/Brochure%20-%20Power+%20Battery.pdf



AGM Pros

_Cheap:_ ~1/4 the cost of the competition
_Simple:_ Only 12 "items" to find a place for in the car
_Straight-forward:_ Only ~12 high voltage connections
_Available:_ Made in USA and in stock (IL), can be at my doorstep in 4-7 days
_Stable:_ Older technology, not likely to change/improve much in the next couple years


AGM Negatives

_Coldblooded:_ Performance suffers badly in colder temperatures
_Heavy:_ Weigh roughly 230 lbs more than the competition
_Short-lived:_ Will likely only last 1 year, 2 at the most
_Short-range:_ Only 120 AH rating, guessing 40 miles at most
_Unproven:_ These particular batteries are designed for Sump Pump systems and, to my knowledge, have never been used in an EV before


LiFePo4 Pros

_Tolerant:_ Perform significantly better than AGM's do in cold climates
_Lighter:_ Total pack is Roughly 230 lbs less than AGM's
_Durable:_ Estimated 3000 cycle life (one cycle per day, typical) = 8+ years
_Range:_ 200 AH rating, plus "flat" discharge curve, so guessing a 100+ mile range
_Proven:_ A lot of people are running their EVs on these batteries are reports are mostly positive


LiFePo4 Negatives

_Expensive:_ Four times the cost of the AGM's
_Many:_ 44 "items" that need to be jammed into and secured in the car, somewhere
_Complicated:_ ~44 high voltage connections (all of which need to be tightened/checked regularly)
_Lead Time:_ On a boat coming from China, ETA early May
_Unstable:_ Constantly changing (improves) with each batch, so must purchase spares ahead of time to ensure compatibility with whole pack when some fail


Conclusions:

The LiFePo4 batteries are clearly "better" in terms of having a significantly longer lifespan, more energy density, lower weight, and hence more potential range. Also, over the long haul (4+ years) they do appear to become more cost effective than the AGM solution.

However, due to the rapidly evolving nature of the battery industry at this particular point in time, even 2 years from now it is likely that something less expensive, lighter, longer lasting, and of an even higher energy density will become available. To me, this means that the significantly higher price premium on being an early adopter of the LiFePo4 batteries today becomes even harder to swallow as the best long-term, most cost effective solution.

Therefore, my feeling is that for my first foray into the realm of Electric Vehicles, that I will likely be more successful in getting my car on the road with the 'simpler' and much less expensive SLA AGM setup. Then, in a year or two, I will see what's out there in terms of the latest and greatest batteries and likely replace my pack with something "better". 

The only aspect that continues to give me pause is being uncertain of the suitability of these particular "Metropolitan Industries Power+ LW20104" batteries for use in a demanding EV application. The posted specs appear to indicate that they are equal to, or better, than any other _12v Deep Cycle SLA AGM_ battery out there...

For the same voltage, size, weight, and energy density, can anyone point me in the direction of a Sealed Lead Acid, Absorbed Glass Mat battery that can meet or exceed the specs on that one? If so, I would definitely be interested in taking a look at it. 

Thank you for your time and patience in reading my ongoing ramblings here,

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:* Mike, from EV Propulsion, was kind enough to send me a couple larger (600 AMP, 300 Volt) fuses which fit nicely, albeit rather snugly, in the ANL Fuse Holder I have. The plastic cover touches the sides of the fuse, but will snap in-place easily enough and will give that crucial bit of safety wiring a much more professional/finished appearance. 

Over the past weekend I also ordered a Manzanita PFC-40 charger, Kelly HWZ Series 144V to 13.5V 25A DC/DC Converter, a bunch of heavy duty lugs, terminal covers, 2/0 welding cable, cable cutter, and crimp tool from EV Propulsion.

I am holding off on ordering the batteries themselves until the last possible minute, but have created a cardboard mock-up of one so I get my battery support structures constructed ahead of time.

Just for fun, attached are pictures of some of the progress made thus far on this project:

_ #1 - 1988 Dodge Daytona Pacifica - Will be painted once it's able to be driven to the paint shop
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_#2 - Mostly Empty Engine Compartment - Note the lack of any ICE related components and greatly reduced wiring harness
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_#3 - Installed NetGain WarP 9 Motor, Erector Set-Like Supports, Trans Adapter Kit, and A555 Standard Transmission
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_#4 - WarP 9 Motor Tailshaft End - Solidly supported, with plenty of room to mount the NetGain RPM sensor
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__#5 - WarP 9 Motor From Below (The front support brace has been adjusted after this picture was taken and is now level)
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_ _#6 - Interior - Showing installed manual shifter, clutch pedal and temporary center console
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_ _#7 - Soliton Throttle, NetGain RPM Sensor Kit, Fuse/Holder, and Soliton1 patiently awaiting installation
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_ _#8 - Beefy 600a/300v fuse in ANL fuse holder
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_ _#9 - ANL fuse holder with cover (it does fit and will snap down into place when installed, but is tricky to remove again so waiting until it's installed before doing so)
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​


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:* During the past week and over the holiday weekend I was able to make some decent progress on my project, so figured I would bore ya'll with the details... 1.) The Kelly HWZ Series 144V to 13.5V 25A DC/DC Converter arrived in record time and is ready to be installed.

2.) Purchased a 12v DieHard 12-BS SLA AGM Motorcycle battery, had fun filling the dry battery with sulfuric acid, let it sit for an hour before sealing it, and then charged it up overnight. This thing is extremely tiny and light, but should hopefully be sufficient for the task of running the lights, horn, radio, power steering pump, power brake vacuum pump, etc whilst being constantly recharged by the DC/DC Converter.

3.) Ordered the 12 Metropolitan Industries SLA AGM batteries. For better or worse, all 810 lbs of them should be arriving by a common carrier on Wednesday.

4.) The welding cable, lugs, terminal covers, and tools were previously ordered and expected to arrive from EV Propulsion sometime this week.

5.) The Manzanita PFC-40 charger was also previously ordered, no ETA on that at this point, but hopefully it will arrive relatively soon. The plan is to have an electrician run a 240v "Electric Stove" circuit out to my detached garage to facilitate full 40 amp charging... However, the beauty of the Manzanita charger is that it can utilize the existing 120v / 15 amp household wiring to be able to charge, albeit more slowly, in the meantime or when visiting other locations.

6.) After taking a lot of additional measurements, it became apparent that original version of the motor mount "Erector Set" needed some minor modifications to ensure it would not come in contact with the front battery supports. While it was out of the car, this seemed like a good opportunity to also make it significantly stronger (and consequently heavier) in the process. Although version 1.0 was likely sufficient to do the job of supporting the tail-shaft end of the motor… Version 2.0 of the motor mount is MUCH more rugged and I believe will stand up to the rigors of the road even better.

































7.) Created and installed the front battery support structure using the same "Erector Set" materials that the motor mount was made from. This stuff is fairly strong, a bit flexible, and can be adjusted/assembled in just about any configuration needed. This structure is bolted directly to the car frame and was carefully designed to NOT come in contact with any of the motor/transmission mounted equipment or supports.

8.) Created and installed a couple of shelf-like support structures to hold the weight of the Soliton1 Controller and other various EV components. This structure is attached to the motor mount supports and therefore 'floats' along with the motor, transmission, and drive shaft assembly.

































9.) Although not actually mounted yet, I placed the Soliton1 Controller on it's support structure and took a photo for reference.








​The plan is for the lower battery supports to hold two batteries directly in front of (but not touching) the motor & transmission. The horizontal supports above those two will be further re-enforced after the lower batteries are in place and will hold four additional batteries (on their sides), for a total of 6 batteries (405 lbs) in the engine compartment.

All batteries will be held securely in place with Velcro straps and will rest on some form of rubberized material in order to cushion them a bit from vibration and bumps. The controller will likewise rest on some form of high-heat-tolerant rubberized material, but will be secured in place with bolts instead.

Once the batteries and hopefully welding cable/lugs arrive, the initial plan is to install one or two of them in order to test out the motor, coupler, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, trans, clutch, and shifter to finally spin the wheels (off the ground, of course).

If all goes according to plan, then I will begin wiring and installing the EV components, starting with the Accessory Battery, Fuse, Throttle, and Controller first. Then I should be able to drive the car up and down the driveway using only two batteries from the pack (24v), similar to Kyle Meier's Daytona test drive here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OzAqhE3fkA​Last, but not least, I have put together a simplistic diagram showing how the primary EV systems will be hooked together in the car.





​Fun stuff and happy to be finally making some notable progress!

Jason


----------



## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Not sure if you've solved your drive shaft delema yet or not, but if not you can replace the 2 piece passenger side axel with a 1 piece unit and not have to worry about adding the stresses from a drive shaft mount to your eretcor set.

You can tell the parts guy you need a passenger side axel for an '87 daytona, lebaron or lancer manual transmission with a 2.2 EFI Non-turbo motor to get the right part (or better yet snag it at an auto wrecker)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Vanquizor said:


> Not sure if you've solved your drive shaft delema yet or not, but if not you can replace the 2 piece passenger side axel with a 1 piece unit and not have to worry about adding the stresses from a drive shaft mount to your eretcor set.
> 
> You can tell the parts guy you need a passenger side axel for an '87 daytona, lebaron or lancer manual transmission with a 2.2 EFI Non-turbo motor to get the right part (or better yet snag it at an auto wrecker)


Hi Vanquizor,

Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated!

I ended up securing the intermediate drive shaft support bracket to the bottom rear steel support, under the motor. It is attached on the left by the tail-shaft support structure (which is now quite strong) and on the right by the lower-rear transmission bolt.

The angle-steel piece used could probably be re-enforced further by bolting it to another piece one running along the side of it, but on it's own seems sufficient to hold the drive shaft support at the proper distance away from anything it could rub against at this point.

I am not really sure how much stress the bearing in that support bracket actually ends up getting over the course of hitting potholes and the like, but it shouldn't really get much stress from the spinning of the axle within the bearing itself should it?

In my, albeit limited, "reaming on it by hand" I can't get it to move much at all (maybe a 1/16" of an inch sway) and it seems fairly solid, but I will keep a close eye on it for any stress or excessive movement.

I am paying particularly close attention to this because the thick part of the half-shaft ends up being precisely lined up to mash into the WarP 9's terminal back there if it's allowed to move more than about 1" or so. 

The idea of using the single-piece unequal length drive shaft is certainly appealing, for exactly the reasons you mentioned... However, my understanding is that the reason the Turbo models came equipped with the equal length + intermediate shaft configuration was due to the extra torque produced by them, which also lead to them having stronger transmissions (like the A555).

I am no expert on such things, but won't an electric motor put out even more torque (particularly from a dead stop) than the 2.2L 4 Cylinder non-turbo engines were capable of, and thus need that extra rotational strength as well?

Since I have a growing collection of 86 - 88 Dodge Daytona's at this point, I might actually have one of those unequal length shafts in one em that could be swapped out if that turns out to be a better option after all. Guess we'll find out how it holds up when I get the EV on the road (hopefully in the next couple weeks).

Thanks again for your suggestion and input, take care,

Jason


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I wouldn't worry too much about the torque loading on the single axel- I've been far harder on them launching on slicks than you will be with the electric motor on the street. I've also learned Its the CV tripods that are far weaker than either axel shaft, and they are the same for both setups.

In steady state operation there shouldn't be much load on that bracket at all, but if you get enough deflection to take up the plunge in the axels that bracket takes the load. The other thing that bracket is doing is resisting the torquing action on the axel- this isin't huge but probably more than you can make it flex by hand when you're on it and its there every time you get on or off the thorottle. Over time this can make mince meat out of a marginal bracket.

Going to a single piece axel more of this torquing force will be transmitted to the driver through the steering (thats the main thing they were trying to avoid by going to the equal length axel setup).

If you have it handy I'd make the swap without question.


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Vanquizor,

Understood and thank you for the explanation, that makes sense...

So it looks like I will need to either substantially beef up the bracket support structure, or find one of those unequal length shafts somewhere (the ones that I 'might' have are currently in running/functional vehicles and would be somewhat time consuming to swap out).

We'll see what I can come up with, and I'll keep ya posted! 

Thanks again,

Jason


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## plug_it (Apr 5, 2010)

Since I am planning to do virtually the same vehicle you are, I was pondering this very thing the other day, especially after examining the pictures of your interesting solution. 

Please keep us posted concerning this... I'm particularly interested in what additional pieces (if any) you have to salvage from your "collection" to make the axle swap work, should you choose to go that route.


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

I just had a peek on Napa online- remanufactured axel you want is part # NMD 958118 $53.49 plus a $100 core charge (give them ANY cv axel even if its from something completely different)

New one is part # NMD 948002 and sells outright for $110

My record for an axel change is 8 minutes without power tools at the track, but you might be a little slower without the heat of competition pushing you


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



plug_it said:


> Since I am planning to do virtually the same vehicle you are, I was pondering this very thing the other day, especially after examining the pictures of your interesting solution.
> 
> Please keep us posted concerning this... I'm particularly interested in what additional pieces (if any) you have to salvage from your "collection" to make the axle swap work, should you choose to go that route.



Hi there Plug_It,

Thank you for the interest in my conversion project. Are you doing a mid-80's Dodge Daytona as well or another vehicle from the Turbo Dodge family?

"In theory" the only thing needed to implement the strategy suggested by Vanquizor should be to replace the current passenger side equal length drive-shaft, intermediate shaft, and bearing assembly with the single unequal length drive-shaft instead.

At this point I do not wish to disassemble any of my other (currently operational) Daytona's in order to get one...

However, as Vanquizor was kind enough to research, it appears that remanufactured and even brand new ones are readily available for purchase. In fact, I poked around and managed several on eBay for around $50 each, brand new, with no core charge. 

Personally, I am going to hold off on buying one for now and see how my current configuration works out... The idea of having the car pull to one side or the other under heavy acceleration is somewhat unappealing, but it is very cool to know that these particular parts are still relatively easy to get for such old (almost classic) vehicles.

Prior to this thread, I had no idea they were still out there and had pretty much resigned myself to scouring a junkyard for one. (Big thanks again to Vanquizor for saving me from that!  )

Good luck with your project and take care,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update*

Last week the batteries, welding cable, lugs, terminal caps, cable cutters, and crimp tool arrived at my doorstep. The batteries are as big and heavy as advertised, but do make a fairly impressive looking stack in my garage.







​
I didn't happen to notice in the online documentation or website pictures any mention of a carrying strap on this particular battery model, but was very pleased to discover that each of them came with a nice fabric one already installed. This made hauling them about and lowering them into the car a LOT less painful than they could have been otherwise.







​
I purchased an off-the-shelf 12v DieHard SLA AGM Motorcycle battery to use for the car's accessory systems and to provide ignition power for the Soliton1.

In order to mount it securely, I created a mini-battery-rack using the same angle-steel that I used for everything else, and made it big enough that I 'could' put a second equal sized battery right next to it, if desired down-the-road.

This also provided a solid mounting location for the EVNetics Throttle assembly, so I hooked that up to the gas pedal cable and wired it into the Soliton1.







​
I figured that now was as good a time as any to hook up the NetGain WarP Speed Sensor, so installed it on the tail-shaft of the motor and wired it into the Soliton1 as well.

I left all 4 set screws in it (4 pulses), but eventually will remove two of them to simulate the output of the original car's 4-cylinder engine. I'm still a bit fuzzy on if that NetGain "signal wire" could be directly connected to the dashboard's Tachometer "signal wire", or if some sort of pull-up or pull-down resister magic is required. So, for the time being, I am holding off hooking it up to the dash.







​
I also ran the car's 12v ignition wire and a solid ground to power up the Soliton1 whenever I turn the key in the ignition. To protect all these wires somewhat and to clean up the look of things, I encased everything in the wiring looms which were previously scavenged from the old ICE engine harness.







​
At this point I just _had_ to hook up a single 12v car battery to the Soliton1 in the guise of a main battery pack, just to see what it could do with the front wheels of the car still off the ground...









I didn't have my welding cable or lugs at that point, so ended up using some heavy duty jumper cables to make all the temporary connections with instead.







​
I hooked up a laptop to the controller and using it's straight-forward web page configuration interface, set it up for a 12v minimum battery pack with 12v motor output. I also used it configured the set points for the Minimum and Maximum throttle positions, which ended up being roughly 10% and 70% with my setup. Lastly, I specified a 5% dead zone on the throttle, just to provide a safe margin for error, considering the gas pedal cable tension has a little "play" in it.

With all of that in place, I put it into gear, pushed the 'gas' pedal on down, and the wheels spun! The controller hummed/whined, but it was not loud nor obnoxious and shockingly there were no bad grinding noises coming from my first flywheel/clutch/pressure-plate/transmission installation. Also, the speedometer actually worked, and registered increasing speeds up to around 5 mph or so.

So Test #1 was a success! 

Jason​


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update*

Over the weekend I started crimping the 3/8" and 1/2" lugs onto the 2/0 AWG orange extremely flexible welding cable. My first attempt was to make the A1 -> S1 Motor Terminal connection cable, which came out about 1/16" too short, but overall I was fairly pleased with the result.























​
On my second attempt, I got the length just right and got it all secured to the motor. Note how close the positive terminal cap is to the drive shaft... I will be checking this area after each short test drive to ensure that it has not even grazed the terminal cap. If it does, then I will have little choice but to replace the entire passenger-side axle with one of the unequal ones instead.







​
I ended up spinning the Soliton1 around 180 degrees because I wanted to move the semi-delicate wiring to a more protected location, facing the firewall instead of the front battery rack. With that in position, I proceeded to assemble a few more cables, including the controller -> motor ones, which I twisted together as recommended somewhere in an effort to reduce EMI noise.

I then just _had_ to toss 4 of the beefy new batteries into the front racks and wire them up temporarily with some jumper cables and such. This resulted in a 48v pack (well actually a bit over 50v, when measured via multimeter), and I used the laptop & web browser to quickly reconfigure the Soliton1 for the new voltage.
















​
I put it in gear (1st), pressed the gas pedal, and drove the car right on out of the garage and down my driveway like there was nothing to it, and at a very respectable speed!

The speedometer is acting up (my guess is that it's an issue with the old sensor wiring from the original car or possibly with the dash itself) so I am not exactly sure how fast it went, but the car pretty much accelerated as fast as it's gas-engine counterparts... At that was only at 48v too!

In fact, the car scooted right along fast enough that I was somewhat concerned that the completely untested (and presently non-power-assisted) brakes would be able to stop the car before I reached the road... But they ended up working just fine as long as I started braking a bit earlier than I normally would.

All-in-all I ended up running back and forth along the driveway about a dozen time with quick starts, quick-as-possible stops, and generally had a grand ol' time.

Then the 12v Accessory battery started to run out of juice, so I had to call it a day. This little motorcycle battery will, eventually, be continuously recharged by the DC-To-DC converter, much like an alternator in an ICE car. However, since that item is limited to only working at (or close to) 144v, I can't really make use of it until the entire 12 battery main pack is installed and wired up in the car.

So as of today, my EV Daytona finally was able to see the light of day with it's ICE counterparts looking on enviously... 







​
Time to get back to hammering out more cables installing more batteries!

Jason


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Jason, 

Congrats on the first drive. I think I can see your grin from here.


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

electromet said:


> Jason,
> 
> Congrats on the first drive. I think I can see your grin from here.


Thanks Electromet, I am definitely quite pleased with the progress made so far and am just about to the point where the car is ready to return to the road. I'm looking forward to getting some "real world" performance data on how the batteries do, how the acceleration is for both flat and uphill climbs, and what sort of range I end up getting.


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update*

Yesterday I reinforced the front upper rack in order to adequately support the four batteries I will be placing in that location. I had planned to do something like this since the beginning, but wanted to come up with a design that allowed easy access for installation & removal of the two front lower batteries.

Here is what I came up with:
























​Note that the front cross member is about 1/2" lower than the rear one... This is "by design" as the batteries need to be slightly angled forward in order to clear the transmission housing in the back and be low enough so the terminals clear the hood in the front.

With that completed, I was able to hoist all six of the front pack batteries into the car. I then fitted, crimped, and heat-shrunk all of the cables necessary to connect everything together, including the main fuse, in a semi-permanent fashion.























​
The current 1/2 pack, with each battery topped off individually prior to installation via my standard 12v "Deep Cycle" charger, measures approximately 78.1 volts on the multimeter.

My plan is to use giant zip-ties, purchased expressly for this purpose, to hold the batteries down securely now that they are (more-or-less) where they ought to be.

I am already hard at work at setting up the final six batteries that will be (for now) simply secured to a sheet of 3/4" thick plywood in the rear hatch area. There will be longish run of the welding cable connecting the rear batteries to the front ones that will travel the path of the original exhaust system and will be secured via zip-ties along the way.

I am also planning on twisting the two long cables together in an effort to minimize EMI, although I am not entirely certain if this is really necessary for the intra-battery connections or not... In any case, routing and measuring them properly is likely going to be somewhat of an "adventure". 

Fun stuff!

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:*

During the past week much has been happening with the EV project, so I figured now would be a good time to provide everyone with an status update.

The front seat belt assemblies in this car had previously been removed for another Dodge Daytona restoration project. Now that the EV is very close to being put back on the road, it needs to have them again. I ended up purchasing yet another 1986 Daytona last weekend (for parts), trailered it home, and then spent a day extracting some useful bits and pieces from it. Some of these are now installed in the EV, including the front seat belts, maroon center console (with manual shifter), and various other cosmetic odds and ends.

Although by no means a show vehicle, the interior of my EV is now very usable and is at least more-or-less color coordinated now. Also, note the blue Ethernet cable coming from the engine compartment and Soliton1? This makes it very simple to hook up a laptop, while sitting comfortably inside the car, for configuration and data collection tasks.







​
Last Friday I visited the Department of Motor Vehicles to get my New York State license plates, Registration, and temporary 10-day Inspection sticker. The car is also insured and is now road-legal, although still needs to pass the yearly safety inspection. Since there are no longer any emissions tests necessary, this roughly amounts to checking the Brakes, Signal Lights, and Horn to ensure they are safe and operational.

I took the car out for a little spin around the block and it handled very well, despite not having power steering or power brakes at this point. However, there were some issues with an apparent loss of power to the motor at certain points. It wasn't a big deal, as I just let off a bit on the accelerator and the motor picked right up again, but it felt almost like an ICE does when it begins to stall.

My best guess is that I was hitting one of the controller limits that I had set to be fairly conservative and it was protecting the batteries, the motor, and itself from my lead foot. I also have the RPM sensor hooked up and the controller set with a 5000 RPM limit as well, so I might have been hitting that as well.

Once I get my charger and feel more confident running the battery pack down a bit, I will do some more data logging and see if I can figure out which limit I am hitting and bump that up a bit in an effort to smooth things out.

Vanquizor - You will likely be interested to know that the intermediate drive shaft did end up touching the motor terminal's protective cap during my test drive...









After our previous discussion, I had preemptively ordered that $50 new unequal length drive-shaft from eBay. This happened to arrive yesterday afternoon, so I got it installed last night. It took me about 30 minutes to swap the axles out & back in, and I am very pleased with the clearance from the motor that the new axle provides. Thanks again for a great suggestion! 

















Over the weekend I installed the 144v to 13.5v 20 amp DC/DC converter. This theoretically should be able to recharge the accessory battery by drawing from the main battery pack.

The wiring was fairly straight-forward, but I got a little confused at first since the Positive/Negative leads that go to the accessory battery are Blue/Green respectively and the much thinner Red/Blue leads are the ones that go to the high voltage pack.

It finally dawned on me that the pack-to-converter wires would be carrying roughly 2 amps (@ 144v), which is why they can get away with being 14 gauge wire. The converter-to-accessory-battery wires would be carrying up to 25 amps (@ 13.5v), which is why they needed to be beefier 10 gauge wire.​
I ended up using a contactor, wired up to the ignition lead, so that the DC/DC converter would be powered off whenever the key was in the off position.

This has the downside that the accessory battery will not continue to be charged when the car is off... However, the upside is that if the headlights or dome light are left on for a prolonged period, then the inexpensive accessory battery will be drained completely but the expensive main battery pack will NOT be. Time will tell if this approach is more trouble than it's worth, but it's simple enough to remove if it doesn't work out.

















Last, but not least, I installed all 12 main pack batteries in the car with a total of seven up in the front engine compartment (two are in the lower battery racks) and five in the rear hatch area. The front ones are zip-tied in place and the rear ones are strapped down to a fitted sheet of plywood.
















​
To connect the front and rear batteries, I ran a long pair of cables (twisted together in an effort to reduce EMI) from the rear hatch down through the old gas tank sensor wiring rubber gasket, and zip-tied it up along the channel that the old muffler system used to be in.







​
All-in-all I think that things are coming together rather nicely,

Jason​


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## Vanquizor (Nov 17, 2009)

Congratulations on getting it plated! Makes me look at all the parts cars in my back yard a little differently...


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:*

Today I drove the EV down to my mechanic to get it's official NYS Inspection. The car sat outside in the grass for a couple years, which didn't do the brake lines any favors, so the shop will be evaluating them and replacing any that need it.

The brakes do function as-is, but there is a small fluid leak near the rear passenger-side wheel and you pretty much have to put the pedal to the floor (and give it plenty of time) to come to a full stop. I am not sure how much of this is due to the leaky line and how much has to do with the power brake vacuum kit not being hooked up yet, but either way having solid brake lines seems like a really good idea. 

Since the day was bright and sunny and the EV was outside enjoying it, I took some exterior pictures just for fun and thought I would share...









































Although I am still having issues with my speedometer, I estimate that on the trip from my house to the mechanic's shop I got up to around 40/45 mph and that was going up a fairly steep hill/overpass in 4th gear.

There was plenty of power left, but I was slowed down by the posted speed limit in that area as well as the shop being directly at the bottom of the other side of that hill/overpass and didn't want to push my luck as my brakes are presently somewhat on the sketchy side.

I ran the EVNetics Data Logger program on my laptop for the entire trip, which was about 1.75 miles with several stop signs & one stop light along the way.

I am not sure what some of the columns in the data file mean, but here are the labels they were given from within the logger program itself, along with the range of values that were found in each column:Time - Looks like a simple incremental counter (28290 to 192280)
CPU - Percent of controller CPU load (27.44% to 40.35%)
Thr. - No idea... (0 to 397)?
I - No idea... (1 to 393)?
D - No idea... (0 to 63.5)?
Pack - Battery Pack Voltage (123 to 154)
T - No idea... (22 to 32.6)?
RPM - Motor RPM (0 to ~7000, with a few spikes up to 18000, which were likely just EM noise)
??? - No idea... (0 to 8)?​For reference, I believe my Soliton1 settings were as follows for this run:Min Battery Voltage = 120 (10v * 12)
Max Battery Current = 372 (62 AH * 6 C)
Max Motor Voltage = 128
Max Motor Current = 450 (5 Minute Rating)
Max Motor Power = 100K
Slew Rate = 500 (Default)
Max Motor Speed = 5000 (Default)​Anyway, more fun stuff! 

Jason​


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Congrats to a nice looking conversion. 

The parameters are not very well documented (typically one of those things on that never ending todo list) but here's a brief explanation:

- Time - Looks like a simple incremental counter (28290 to 192280)
Yep. Running time in milliseconds since power on.

- CPU - Percent of controller CPU load (27.44% to 40.35%)
Yep.

- Thr. - No idea... (0 to 397)?
Throttle. It's shown in 0 to max motor current (Ampere) and is your demanded motor current.

- I - No idea... (1 to 393)?
Motor current in Ampere, what you actually got.

- D - No idea... (0 to 63.5)?
Pulse duration in percent. Multiply with pack voltage to get motor voltage and motor current to get pack current.

- Pack - Battery Pack Voltage (123 to 154)
Yep.

- T - No idea... (22 to 32.6)?
Temperature in Celsius.

- RPM - Motor RPM (0 to ~7000, with a few spikes up to 18000, which were likely just EM noise)
Hmm. That's bad. See below.

- ??? - No idea... (0 to 8)?
Debug output typically only interesting for me. Usage differs between controller software version.

Anyway, the tachometer input is noise filtered in software, that you get spikes at 18000 RPM can mean:



You have an old software in the controller with less efficient filtering.
Your tachometer noise is exceptionally high.

Check the software version (listed in the web interface), it should say 1.1rc415. If it doesn't, download the latest version from www.evnetics.com and upgrade before trying anything else.

Check that the wiring from the tachometer is only connected to the controller, including +12V and GND. Also make sure you've connected pull up or pull down according to the tachometers instruction. If that also checks out, make sure there's not a grounding fault in the tachometer (a simple check with an ohm meter that there's no connection between ground wire and the tachometer housing should be enough I think).

If you need a signal to the dash board tachometer and has spliced the tachometer signal for that, try configuring one of the outputs from the controller as RPM output and use that instead.

If you STILL have problems, let me know. I thought I'd nailed that one...


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Congrats on the first drive! Glad to see everything worked out pretty well..looks like a nice neat, tidy wiring job too! Well done and built quickly-something to be proud of for sure.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Hello Qer,

Thank you very much for responding and for filling in the knowledge gaps concerning the output from your logger application. Now that the data makes more sense to me, I should be able to toss it into a spreadsheet to analyze and pour over more closely.

I had ordered the controller through EV-Propulsion back in early January, and as I recall it was shipped directly from EVNetics a bit after that. The software version it was shipped with is listed on the configuration page as "1.1rc415".

I also downloaded the update from your website since I wasn't certain if the 'rc' (Release Candidate) version I had was the latest-n-greatest or not. However, as the files were labeled "*_415" and had the same date, it seems likely I already had the latest one available.



Qer said:


> Anyway, the tachometer input is noise filtered in software, that you get spikes at 18000 RPM can mean:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You may very well have hit the proverbial nail on the head regarding the RPM sensor spikes...

I am using the NetGain WarP Speed sensor kit, which is directly wired to the Soliton1's TACH, SIGNAL+12V, and SIGNALGND terminals. I setup the sensor for 2 pulses per revolution (which I believe is correct for the original 4 cylinder engine), and set the controller configuration to match. All was well and the controller does appear to be getting accurate RPM readings from the sensor, for the most part.

Note however that the cable is rather long and lives more or less right next to all the high voltage controller -> motor cabling, so it very well could be picking up interference from that. I could cut it shorter, and/or route it somewhat differently to try and get it as far away from the high voltage cable as possible if that turns out to be the root cause of the problem... Further investigation and testing in this area will be done as soon as I get the car back from the mechanic that is working on the brakes. 

Since the sensor was already getting both power and ground from the controller, I thought I would try and see if it's signal wire would straight-up drive my factory tachometer in the dash (it is digital in this car). I attached the dashboard's "signal" wire to the controllers TACH terminal as well and it works! Kinda...

Below 1000 RPM the dashboard tachometer seems to randomly fluctuate between reading 0 RPM and 7K RPM (the high point on this particular gauge). After 1000 RPM it smooths out nicely and seems to match what I am seeing while running the logger program on the laptop.

It is entirely possible that a mid-80's era digital dash could be spitting out random signal spikes that are messing with the readings the Soliton1 is getting, so the first troubleshooting step I will do is to remove the dash wire from the equation and see if the spikes continue to appear on the logger or not.

I did try hooking up the gauge to the Output1 of the controller and configuring it for RPM output as documented in the manual (at 2 pulses). However, I am guessing that the special resister circuit shown in the manual will be necessary to make this function because all the gauge does is read 7K continuous when hooked up directly that way.

I am by no means an electrical engineer and honestly found that circuit diagram to be more than a bit intimidating... However, it looks like I am going to need to figure out how to build a couple for the (Output2) SOC -> Fuel Gauge and possibly (Output3) Temp -> Water Temp Gauge work properly anyway, so I guess it's research time. 

Thank you again for your time and input,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



EV-propulsion.com said:


> Congrats on the first drive! Glad to see everything worked out pretty well..looks like a nice neat, tidy wiring job too! Well done and built quickly-something to be proud of for sure.
> Mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com


Hi Mike,

Thank you for the congrats and yes, I think it is coming together rather nicely as well.

Considering that I didn't actually start building anything until I got the adapter plate on March 17th, and have maintained a busy work schedule in the meantime, I am really happy to have the car "on the road" in just over a month's time...

Guess it's a good thing I don't have a social life or anything! 

Take care,

Jason


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> I did try hooking up the gauge to the Output1 of the controller and configuring it for RPM output as documented in the manual (at 2 pulses). However, I am guessing that the special resister circuit shown in the manual will be necessary to make this function because all the gauge does is read 7K continuous when hooked up directly that way.


Hm. That is odd. When you get the car back, send me a PM with a screen dump of the settings and I'll try to help you sort this out.


----------



## martymcfly (Sep 10, 2008)

Nice job. There are plenty of parts around for those old Chryslers. They are very simple cars. I used to race a 86 Daytona on the local 1/3 mile bullring. There is plenty of room between the rear frame rails where the spare tire well is to put batteries. BTW the rear hatch is very heavy. Also you could block out the grill very easy to improve aero. Every bit helps.


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Qer said:


> Hm. That is odd. When you get the car back, send me a PM with a screen dump of the settings and I'll try to help you sort this out.


Good afternoon Qer,

I apologize for the number of days it took me to get back to you.

The shop I took the car to ended up replacing all of the rusted out brake lines with shiny new ones, so now the brake pedal is now tight and the brakes work very well (even without the vacuum power assist added in yet).

On the trip from the shop back home, the car continued to suffer from the same stuttering power loss that I reported before, but it was even worse and felt like I was hauling a trailer or something. When I pulled into my driveway I was greeted with smoke billowing out from the front of the car!

After a quick check under the hood I realized that the smoke was actually coming from the driver side wheel well and all EV components, batteries, wiring, etc were perfectly fine. As it turns out, those spiffy new brake lines with lots of solid pressure in them were just a bit too much for my rusty old calipers and one locked up at some point during the drive. 

The NetgGain motor with the EVNetics controller are so powerful that they happily pushed the car along at around 30 mph, even with one of the front calipers locked up. It was actually rather impressive to behold. 

I drove the car into my garage, jacked it up, and removed the offending wheel. The lugs were so hot that I was unable touch them bare-handed, even after the car sat still for a bit. I banged the caliper with a hammer to shake it loose and also knocked out a fair amount of rust, then finally got the wheel spinning freely again.

At the end of the day each of my batteries were down to 12.6 volts from the 13.1 or so volts they were shipped with. I didn't want to stress them any further to continue testing. Since my Manzanita charger is still en-route, I ended up charging each of my batteries individually using a standard 12v/15amp automatic deep cycle charger. This took approximately 4 hours for each battery, which ate up most of the weekend.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

I ended up leaving all of the wiring hooked up exactly as it was before (dashboard tachometer signal wire hooked up to the Soliton1 TACH terminal, along with the NetGain Sensor wire also hooked up to that same terminal). However, I disabled the RPM input in the software on the configuration page so the controller would simply ignore the data.

Then I drove it to work today on a roughly 2 mile trip that lasted approximately 6.5 minutes, including several stop signs and one ~60 second traffic light.

The dashboard RPM gauge worked fine. Even though it still had the same sputtering at <1000 RPM as before, it was still useful and usable when motoring along.

As for the driving experience, it was... perfect! The Soliton1, without those unstable RPM sensor readings causing it to limit things, powered the motor well while producing very smooth and peppy acceleration.

Although I only pushed the car up to about 40 mph on this particular trip, the acceleration felt more-or-less exactly like it's 174 Horsepower Turbo II ICE counterpart.

I did end up starting off in 1st, then shifting to 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th just like I do when driving my gas-powered Daytona. Although not strictly necessary, it felt like the car accelerated more quickly by shifting in this "like normal" fashion, rather than starting off from a stop in 3rd gear. It even zipped up a fairly sizable overpass without any perceivable loss in power while in 4th gear.

As requested, here are the Soliton1 settings that I am currently running with: (These values were calculated using the recommended formulas in the manual based on the Battery and Motor spec documentation.)







​
I also ran the logger program on this trip and put together some rudimentary graphs based on the data it collected, shown here:























​
For reference, the ambient temperature was about 40 degrees (F) today, and was oddly snowing in between occasional bursts of sunshine.

Note: That break you see in the graphs was just where I cut out the 60 seconds or so while I was sitting at that long stop light. During that time nothing happened other than the pack increasing from 150v to 154v while it 'rested' and the controller temp dropping from 19C to 16C.

Interesting & fun stuff! 

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



martymcfly said:


> Nice job. There are plenty of parts around for those old Chryslers. They are very simple cars. I used to race a 86 Daytona on the local 1/3 mile bullring. There is plenty of room between the rear frame rails where the spare tire well is to put batteries. BTW the rear hatch is very heavy.


Good afternoon Marty,

Thank you for your feedback and comments. Yes, there is plenty of room in the back of these cars, particularly if the floor is cut out behind the rear axle where the wheel well and muffler was previously located. Approximately 11 of the rather large batteries that I am using could fit in that space if this was done.

Currently I have 5 (337.5 lbs) batteries in the rear which are strapped down inside the car, behind the rear seats, directly above the rear axle on a sheet of plywood.

I have been considering putting two of the batteries underneath the car in front of the rear axle right where the gas tank used to be. They could fit nicely there with one on each side, but would need to lay on their sides in order to remain higher than the lowest point under the car. Also, they would be exposed to the elements unless an enclosure of some sort is custom built for them.

A total of 13 of these batteries in the rear of the vehicle (877.5 lbs) may be a bit too much for the frame to support and probably would cause handling issues as well. However, I am guessing that with some hefty truck springs and beefy shocks, it still might be possible to fill up that space with additional batteries.

For me personally, range is not as big of an issue as having peppy acceleration and hill climbing ability, so I will likely try to keep the car as light as possible at this point. Even to the point of sacrificing range in the process.

With ever lighter and higher capacity batteries reportedly coming "soonish", it's still good to know that I have a lot of space available for other options when they become viable.



martymcfly said:


> Also you could block out the grill very easy to improve aero. Every bit helps.


As for the front grill area, I am not sure what I am going to do with that yet...

Right now there is a empty cavity within the nose (from where the radiator used to be to the front) that is technically even large enough to hold 2 of the batteries I am using. However, I did not want to put so much weight that far forward and ended up not using it for batteries. Currently this air intake forms a nice wind-funnel which ends up directing cold air right between the the top of the motor and bottom of the controller. Thus, there may be some benefit in leaving it unblocked, at least during the summer months.

I do plan on putting some sort of water & dust shield underneath the engine compartment to try to encourage the air to glide as smoothly as possible under the car and to protect the motor as much as possible from the hazards of large puddles and road debris. I am currently searching for some sort of material to use for this purpose that would be stiff enough to hold it's approximate shape, flexible enough to get brittle and crack, be waterproof, and be hardy enough to withstand the day-to-day rigors of the road.

Thanks again and take care,

Jason


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> ...
> I am using the NetGain WarP Speed sensor kit, which is directly wired to the Soliton1's TACH, SIGNAL+12V, and SIGNALGND terminals.
> ...
> Note however that the cable is rather long and lives more or less right next to all the high voltage controller -> motor cabling, so it very well could be picking up interference from that. I could cut it shorter, and/or route it somewhat differently to try and get it as far away from the high voltage cable as possible...


We tested this tach sensor on our dyno and it seemed to work fine, BUT, "Your Mileage May Vary" when installed in an actual EV. The TACH input on the Soliton1 is the most noise-sensitive one by nature and I did mention to the guy that makes the WarP speed sensor that I would really like to see a much lower pullup resistance used to reduce the chances of it picking up noise.

We recommend using inexpensive, and commonly available, inductive proximity sensors such as this one at Automation Direct - 8mm Prox

It does sound like you are picking up noise - and certainly the controller is "stuttering" because it thinks motor RPM is too high (noise) and cutting power - so routing the tach sensor wiring away from the battery and motor cables will help a lot. Next try adding a 0.1uF capacitor from TACH to SGND. Radio Shack has them for, IIRC, a couple bucks - the kind they have look like green Chiclets, btw.




Xoryn said:


> I did try hooking up the gauge to the Output1 of the controller and configuring it for RPM output as documented in the manual (at 2 pulses). However, I am guessing that the special resister circuit shown in the manual will be necessary to make this function because all the gauge does is read 7K continuous when hooked up directly that way.


The output drivers on the Soliton1 were meant to drive contactors and lights and such and work by switching between floating (off) and delivering the positive 12V rail (on). They can't actually drive a load to ground without external help in the form of a a resistor (1k, but not real critical). Connect this resistor between the output generating the tach signal and GND. 




Xoryn said:


> I am by no means an electrical engineer and honestly found that circuit diagram to be more than a bit intimidating... However, it looks like I am going to need to figure out how to build a couple for the (Output2) SOC -> Fuel Gauge and possibly (Output3) Temp -> Water Temp Gauge work properly anyway, so I guess it's research time.


Sorry about that, but there is no way for us to accommodate the bewildering variety of resistance values used by the various automotive gauge senders, and this (ab)use of the auxiliary outputs on the Soliton1 was never imagined by us when I designed the hardware... That it has been press-ganged into this service is entirely the result of Qer's programming magic.


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Jason, 
A piece of coroplast from a sign supply or sign shop works great for what you need to do under the car. Basically it is plastic but looks like corogated cardboard. It comes in 4x8 sizes, different colors, is light, strong, and flexible too (and pretty cheap).
Glad to hear performance is so good on the car and you're having fun!
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## Homer (Aug 4, 2009)

How about putting another resistor between SIG and +12volts. That would result in lowering the overall pull-up resistor value. For example, I think the existing resistor is about 2K, so another 2K in parallel would be a 1K pull-up.


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Hello Tesseract,

Thank you for your feedback and comments as they are much appreciated. 

I do want to make it clear that the Soliton1 has been working wonderfully right along and that at no point did I ever think _it_ was at fault for the noisy tach signal I was feeding to it.

Rather my intention was to demonstrate that the stuttering behavior I was getting during my first couple test drives was able to be tracked down (due to the extremely handy Soliton1 data logger output) as likely being caused by those spikes from either the sensor wiring or my crusty 80's era Digital dash.



Tesseract said:


> It does sound like you are picking up noise - and certainly the controller is "stuttering" because it thinks motor RPM is too high (noise) and cutting power - so routing the tach sensor wiring away from the battery and motor cables will help a lot. Next try adding a 0.1uF capacitor from TACH to SGND. Radio Shack has them for, IIRC, a couple bucks - the kind they have look like green Chiclets, btw.


Thank you for the capacitor suggestion. If the re-routing of the sensor wiring away from the high voltage cables doesn't clear it up sufficiently, I will certainly try that as the next trouble-shooting step.

Also, the RPM limiting function is a nice-to-have safety feature, but is not strictly necessary to use in my opinion. So if I can't get the noise level down enough to eliminate the spikes, then I can always either leave the RPM input turned off entirely or might be able to just set the cutoff value to something higher than the spikes hit in order to retain the RPM data logging functionality but not limit power.

That is one of the main things I love about your controller... It's flexibility. 



Tesseract said:


> Sorry about that, but there is no way for us to accommodate the bewildering variety of resistance values used by the various automotive gauge senders, and this (ab)use of the auxiliary outputs on the Soliton1 was never imagined by us when I designed the hardware... That it has been press-ganged into this service is entirely the result of Qer's programming magic.


I have been going over your Dashboard Gauge Driver wiring diagram (from the manual) and am trying to figure out which components I need to buy from Radio Shack in order to successfully make one....

For reference:






​"R3 100" - Resistor (100 ohm, 1/2W?)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062315

"R4 1K" - Resistor (1000 ohm, 1/2W?)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062323

"T1 IRF510" - MOSFET Transitor
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062618

As for the other two resistors, the diagram says they can be potentiometers, presumably so they can be tweaked/adjusted as needed... Do you think the following might do the trick?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062300​Thank you for your time,

Jason​


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Homer said:


> How about putting another resistor between SIG and +12volts. That would result in lowering the overall pull-up resistor value. For example, I think the existing resistor is about 2K, so another 2K in parallel would be a 1K pull-up.


We use a 220Ω pullup with the Automation Direct prox switches, so about 10x more noise resistance than the 2k2 resistor inside the NetGain sensor. Unfortunately, as I recall from my conversation with the guy at RechargeCar, the sensor can't tolerate too much lower resistance than the 2.2K he chose.

Like I said, I had my reservations about the pullup value, despite it working ok on my dyno, but then they went and associated themselves with NetGain Controls and I promptly forgot all about them.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> ...
> I do want to make it clear that the Soliton1 has been working wonderfully right along and that at no point did I ever think _it_ was at fault for the noisy tach signal I was feeding to it.


Well, to be fair I could always modify the circuit to add more signal processing to the tach input. Inserting a non-retriggerable monostable would solve the bouncy/noisy tach input problem once and for all - but, I couldn't know to what lengths I would need to go conditioning the signal since code to read the tach input wasn't ready until, oh, about Oct. 2009! 

Should I ever do a hardware revision of the main control board we will offer any existing Soliton1 customers the opportunity to send it in for an upgrade (for a very modest charge - probably $100 + shipping one way).




Xoryn said:


> Thank you for the capacitor suggestion. If the re-routing of the sensor wiring away from the high voltage cables doesn't clear it up sufficiently, I will certainly try that as the next trouble-shooting step.


This worked for Dimitri, our original beta tester, so it might also for you.




Xoryn said:


> ...So if I can't get the noise level down enough to eliminate the spikes, then I can always either leave the RPM input turned off entirely or might be able to just set the cutoff value to something higher than the spikes hit in order to retain the RPM data logging functionality but not limit power.


Don't apologize for having a problem - we might not have had this issue ourselves but that doesn't mean no one else will. We, rely to a great extent on customer feedback to improve, and occasionally fix, things with the controller. We certainly tried to _anticipate_ problems like noise pickup on the TACH input, but that doesn't mean we addressed all of them. Qer is, as usual, hot on the case thinking of new ways to eliminate random - and physically unrealistic - jumps in RPM in software (because, unfortunately for him, it is much easier to change the software in the Soliton1 than it is the hardware  )




Xoryn said:


> I have been going over your Dashboard Gauge Driver wiring diagram


Okay... here's where things get complicated. That example circuit is just that, an example. It is not meant to be universally applicable because if there's one thing you can bet on with respect to automakers it's that no two of them do things the same way.

For example, in some vehicles the coolant temperature sensor is a resistor that DECREASES in value as temperature goes up while in others it INCREASES.

Then there is the actual signal produced by a Soliton1 output configured as a gauge driver. It's a 60Hz square wave that varies from 0-100% duty cycle. A "typical" analog gauge will average out this signal to a steady reading because of the mechanical inertia of the gauge movement, but in some vehicles (ask me how I know!) the computer stands in between the sensor and the gauge, and so a PWM'ed signal just causes an error code to be generated in the OBD-II system.

All in all, it appears you have a much better chance of getting an aftermarket gauge to work rather than one in the dash, but on an older (pre-OBD-II) vehicle such as your Daytona I think you'll have a good chance. As long as they aren't digital gauges (I seem to recall there being a craze for that back in the 80's...)

The point of all this is that I simply have _no idea_ what will work in your situation. I will try to help here if possible, but you absolutely must expect that you will have to do some tinkering and experimenting if you want to use the gauge drivers!


----------



## rocketjosh (Jun 8, 2008)

Hello everyone, I'm the guy at RechargeCar Inc. We manufacture the WarP™ Speed Sensor kit.

A little clarification, and thanks for the kind words, Jeffery:

Indeed, after we sent you a free sensor kit a while back to test with your controller, we discussed the pull-up resistor and capacitor.

I mentioned that we are including the manufacturer's recommended pull-up resistor (2.2K) which works right out-of-the-box with after-market gauges and even Zilla controllers. Customers can add a parallel resistor if they are having noise issues, or using a 5 Volt source. Its a lot easier to decrease pull-up resistance than increase in this case, and using a conservative integrated resistance allows for more universal application.

According to our spec sheet, (anyone read this?) the maximum output current is 25mA. If you are using a 12 volt source, the minimum pull-up value would be 480 ohms (12 Volts/0.025A = 480 ohms).

http://www.rechargecar.com/assets/wss_specsheet_rev1.2.pdf

As Homer suggested, put a 600-700 ohm resistor in parallel to achieve the minimum resistance of around 480 ohms. 

We are happy to work with customers, and other manufacturers and will continue to improve our products with positive and productive feedback.

And yes, we did associate with Netgain Controls - we manufacture a better sensor solution that bolts right to their motors.

Thanks again for the feedback, let me know if you have any other questions!

Josh


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Good afternoon Tesseract,

Thank you again for your feedback and insight. 



Tesseract said:


> Okay... here's where things get complicated. That example circuit is just that, an example. It is not meant to be universally applicable because if there's one thing you can bet on with respect to automakers it's that no two of them do things the same way.
> 
> For example, in some vehicles the coolant temperature sensor is a resistor that DECREASES in value as temperature goes up while in others it INCREASES.
> 
> ...


Luckily (or unluckily) my Daytona does have an 80's era digital dash... As far as I can tell all of the gauges seem to work by sending out a signal that ends up going to ground on the other side of whatever sensor it is attached to. The time period between these 'grounding pulses' seems to then be counted by the dash circuitry and then that count is translated into a meter reading.

The Speed Sensor/Speedometer definitely works this way as it appears that the dash itself is doing the pulse-to-digital conversion all on it's own, then displays that as a numeric value.

Originally the RPM sensor lead came out of the ICE Computer and was wired directly to the dash. However, it seems to work reasonably well with this same wire instead hooked up to the WarP Speed Sensor with it configured for 2 pulses. (Other than the aforementioned flaking out it does below 1000 RPM, which is likely just a limitation of the dash itself and is in no way the fault of the sensor.)

The Accessory Battery volt gauge appears to work, as-is.

I haven't done anything with the Fuel, Oil Pressure, or Temp gauges yet but am hopeful I can create a Dashboard Gauge Driver circuit (from your example in the manual) to get those working as well.

It would be ideal if I could get away with using a Soliton1 output for SoC hooked up to the Fuel gauge, and thus not strictly require a separate Volt and Amp gauge... Then the interior of the car could remain completely stock, yet still give the driver a fair approximation of how much juice they have left in the "tank". 

For reference, here is what the dash looks like when spinning the motor in neutral while sitting still in the garage today:






​ 


Tesseract said:


> The point of all this is that I simply have _no idea_ what will work in your situation. I will try to help here if possible, but you absolutely must expect that you will have to do some tinkering and experimenting if you want to use the gauge drivers!


Oh I am all for tinkering and experimenting, and am happy to go forth and do just that. The trouble is that I just don't know enough about electronic circuit design to be able to read the example driver diagram and match up the parts it shows with physical, purchasable items from an electronics parts supplier.

In my previous post I linked specific parts from Radio Shack and was seeking feedback on if those parts would be appropriate for building the sample circuit (regardless of the vehicle it will be used in), or if I was way off with my wild guesses as to the specifications of the listed items. I apologize if it seems overly simplistic/obvious to folks more knowledable on the subject, but sometimes it's the simple things like this that throw us newbies for a loop. 

For example, on the diagram it says "R4 1K". I am making the assumption that the 1K represents a rating in ohms, but when I look at the parts available from online retailers they all seem to also be rated in watts as well as have a percentage rating (accuracy?) in addition to being constructed using various different types of material. The one I linked from Radio Shack states "1K ohm 1/2W 5% Carbon Film Resistor"... Would that be appropriate to build the sample circuit or should a higher or lower wattage rating be used?

The main reason I was thinking about using two trim-pots instead of the "R2 15" and "R1 115" resistors shown in the diagram was that it seems like it would make the circuit more flexible/generic and able to be 'dialed in' to the specific gauge one was trying to make it work with. Making the huge assumption that I am understanding that part correctly, then would two of the ones I linked (1K-Ohm Horizontal-Style Trimmer) be appropriate for such a usage or can you recommend something better?

Thank you yet again for your time,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Good afternoon Josh,

Thank you for your input and comments on the WarP Speed Sensor, I greatly appreciate it. 

Just to eliminate a few variables in troubleshooting this problem, I carefully re-routed the Speed Sensor wiring as far as I could get it away from any high voltage lines and also disconnected the digital dashboard single wire just-in-case that was causing some sort of weird feedback.

I ended up stringing it up along the very top rear of the firewall, like so:









It's kind of hard to see it in this tiny picture, but the WarP Speed Sensor wiring is in the lower-most horizontal black wire loom that can be seen going above the drive-shaft to the firewall.
​








It comes down on the far side of the Heater Core connections protruding from the firewall and joins up (at the white plastic connector) with the rest of the low voltage wiring coming from the Throttle and Ignition lead.
​






​
Now the closest point any of these wires ever get to any high voltage cabling is actually where they end at the terminals themselves on the Soliton1. (Note: Those are even the battery cables, not the motor cables, which are located at the far end.)

I then re-enabled the RPM input on the Soliton1 and set the RPM limit the highest possible value (8000) and made a quick drive around the block to test it out. I used the logger program to record the data, then graphed the results as follows:

















The spikes are still present and were enough to make the car 'stutter' a bit whenever the controller detected an over 8K RPM speed, but the driving experience was notably better than when the limit was set at 5K. The largest value recorded was 30,000 RPM, but most of the spikes appeared to be in 10k to 25K range.​


rocketjosh said:


> I mentioned that we are including the manufacturer's recommended pull-up resistor (2.2K) which works right out-of-the-box with after-market gauges and even Zilla controllers. Customers can add a parallel resistor if they are having noise issues, or using a 5 Volt source. Its a lot easier to decrease pull-up resistance than increase in this case, and using a conservative integrated resistance allows for more universal application.
> 
> According to our spec sheet, (anyone read this?) the maximum output current is 25mA. If you are using a 12 volt source, the minimum pull-up value would be 480 ohms (12 Volts/0.025A = 480 ohms).
> 
> As Homer suggested, put a 600-700 ohm resistor in parallel to achieve the minimum resistance of around 480 ohms.


In my setup, the WarP sensor is wired directly to the Soliton1's TACH, SIGNAL+12V, and SIGNALGND terminals so I am reasonably confident it is getting a stable +12V source.

For reference, from your PDF document:







​
So, if I properly understand your instructions here, I should purchase a 600-700 ohm resistor and then could simply attach it between the SIGNAL+12V and TACH terminals as well in order to perform this 'pull up' magic?

If so... Then would the following part, from good ol' Radio Shack, be an appropriate choice for the task of reducing/eliminating those noise spikes?680 ohm 1/2W 5% Carbon Film Resistor
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062322​Would that reduce the accuracy of the RPM readings at all?

Thank you for your time as well,

Jason


----------



## rocketjosh (Jun 8, 2008)

No problem Jason, glad I can help.

You got it - install that 680 ohm resistor between SIGNAL+12V and TACH on the controller. See how that works. Then try the a 0.1uF capacitor from TACH to SIGNALGND like Jeff mentioned. I'd love to see some screen-shots of each test.


----------



## Qer (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> The spikes are still present and were enough to make the car 'stutter' a bit whenever the controller detected an over 8K RPM speed, but the driving experience was notably better than when the limit was set at 5K. The largest value recorded was 30,000 RPM, but most of the spikes appeared to be in 10k to 25K range.


I would love to have that log file (the text file that is) to help me come up with a solution on your problem. Could you send it to me in a PM? Thanks.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> ...
> It would be ideal if I could get away with using a Soliton1 output for SoC hooked up to the Fuel gauge, and thus not strictly require a separate Volt and Amp gauge... Then the interior of the car could remain completely stock, yet still give the driver a fair approximation of how much juice they have left in the "tank".


Well, as long as you remember that the way SoC is done in the Soliton1 is not even remotely as accurate as a proper Amp-hour counter (like the standalone gauge Dimitri here is working on). Actually, SoC is very much "in beta" and may be dropped from future code revisions, especially if lots of people have problems with it.




Xoryn said:


> In my previous post I linked specific parts from Radio Shack and was seeking feedback on if those parts would be appropriate for building the sample circuit...


I'm sorry, but I really cannot tell from here whether any particularly part values or ratings will work. Is it likely that 1/2W resistors will be fine? Sure. Is it possible that the original sensor dissipated more than 1/2W? Yep, but it is highly unlikely. So while 1/2W resistors will probably be more than enough, there's no guarantee, especially in an older vehicle. Also note that trimmer potentiometers are much more sensitive to vibration, dust, heat, moisture, etc., compared to a fixed resistor and their power rating is for the entire element. If you have a 1k pot set to 10% (100 ohms) then the amount of power it can tolerate at that setting is also 10% of it's stated rating. That said, most gauges don't require more than 1mA or so to operate so there shouldn't be any real issues with the power rating of the components involved. Certainly the IRF510 mosfet is way overrated for the job but I specified it because I know it is sold at Radio Shack.

So, rather than ask _me_ what resistor values should be used you should measure (or look up) the specs of the original fuel gauge sending unit and try to duplicate the values at full and empty with fixed and/or fixed + variable resistors (ie - pots). Of course this _assumes_ the sender actually consisted of a float attached to the wiper of a pot, so as to give a resistance that varied, either directly or inversely, with fuel level.

The example circuit in the manual is for duplicating the behavior of fuel gauge sending units in which the resistance _decreases_ as fuel level _increases_. We have encountered vehicles where the opposite occurs which case the output signal needs to be inverted (e.g. - 100% on = empty).




Xoryn said:


> ...
> The spikes are still present and were enough to make the car 'stutter' a bit whenever the controller detected an over 8K RPM speed, but the driving experience was notably better than when the limit was set at 5K. The largest value recorded was 30,000 RPM, but most of the spikes appeared to be in 10k to 25K range.​



That RPM plot looks awful. There is way too much noise showing up in the logger data - far more than we see in vehicles over at Rebirth Auto (which all use the aforementioned industrial prox switches for tach pickups). Qer is looking into ways to better filter it out in software but this is definitely something peculiar to your setup, though your wiring does look fine to me. 

I would first try adding another resistor from TACH to S+12V (680 ohms to 1k) and if that didn't help then add a 0.1uF capacitor from TACH to SGND. If neither solution helps then the only other suggestion I can provide is to replace the actual sensor with the one from Automation Direct I suggested earlier.
​


Xoryn said:


> Would that reduce the accuracy of the RPM readings at all?


Lowering the resistance won't change the accuracy at all, as long as it isn't so low it causes the output signal to collapse. You'll know when that happens because RPM won't register at all.


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Good evening all

It has been a very busy week for me with the EV project, so I wanted to fill everyone in on some of the various testing that was done and share the most recent data.

First off, as recommended by Tesseract and Rocketjosh, I purchased a 680 ohm 1/2w resistor from a local electronics supplier and stuck it securely between the Soliton1's TACH and SIGNAL+12V terminals.







​
(Note: The gray wire in the photo above, with the red crimped end, goes to the dashboard Tach and was disconnected during testing so it would not skew the results.)

I then proceeded to drive around the block while running the data logger, put the results into Excel, and graphed various points of interest. 































​
As you can see from the graphs, the resistor unfortunately had little or no effect on the noise spikes. I had forgotten to purchase the 0.1uf capacitor while I was at the store, but plan on getting that next week and replicating the same data logged test with both the recommended capacitor & resistor in place.

I also tested logging the data while sitting perfectly still and simply revving the motor in neutral... The 18,000+ RPM spike readings were still present, so I guess driving around the block is overkill for trouble-shooting purposes.

I will be sending all of my data on this to QER tonight, as requested, and perhaps it will be of some use to him.

Most of my time and energy during the past week has been focused on hooking up my shiny new Manzanita PFC40M charger and trying to solve a really annoying, and completely unrelated, problem with my Kelly HWZ Series  144V to 13.5V 25A DC/DC Convertor. (See my next post for details on that particular "adventure"....)

Take care,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:
*
Ever since my first test drive I have been having an odd problem with the small inline fuse for the DC/DC converter that kept repeatedly blowing.

For reference, this is the one I actually ended up purchasing: 

 *DC-To-DC Converter:* Kelly HWZ Series DC/DC Convertor 144V to 13.5V 25A link
~ $150 (plus shipping)
~ 5.5 lbs
~ 6.75” x 4.75” x 2.75”
​I contacted the manufacturer, Kelly Controls, LLC with the following email:
Good evening,

The DC/DC Converter arrived safely and in a timely fashion, thank you.

However, I am having a bit of a technical difficulty with it and am hoping that you will be able to point me in the right direction to help me resolve the matter. The situation is as follows:

I installed the DC/DC Converter securely on the sidewall of my vehicle.

I connected the thin Red/Black wires to the Positive/Negative ends, respectively, of my 12 x 12v SLA AGM Battery Pack (144v nominal, ~155v fully charged, ~120v 'empty').

I connected the thick Blue wire to the A1+ terminal of a "Tyco Kilovac 500A 320V EV200 12V" contactor and ran a similar weight wire from the A2- terminal to the Positive (+) terminal on my 12v accessory battery.

I connected the thick Green wire to a solid vehicle ground, which is also connected to the Negative (-) terminal on my small 12v accessory battery.

The contactor's Red/Black wires are hooked up to the vehicle ignition/ground respectively.
​
Upon turning the key on, the DC/DC Converter produces ~13.6v and appears to work just fine.

If I press on the accelerator pedal "lightly", then the car moves and everything continues to work just fine.

Then, about the time I shift into 2nd gear and start drawing a bit more power from the main battery pack... The inline fuse going to the DC/DC Converter blows, so it stops producing power, and my small accessory battery immediately begins to drain.

My Soliton1 controller has data logging capability, and I can tell from those logs that the main battery pack is staying in the 130v to 155v range even when "sagging" during heavy acceleration. So as far as I can tell, the pack voltage appears to stay well within the 112v to 195v operating range as specified for this particular DC/DC Converter.

The fuse seems to blow regardless of if the car lights or other accessories are on or not, and 3 out of the 4 times it has blown have been with nothing drawing power other than the Dashboard, Controller, DC/DC Converter, and the Tyco contactor.

Note: The ambient temperature around these parts today during testing is about 40 degrees (F) and the DC/DC Converter remained cool to the touch the entire time.

Do you have any idea why this might be happening? Why would the DC/DC Converter 'ever' draw more than a few amps from a 144v battery pack when it's maximum output is 13.5v at 25A? Have I misunderstood the math on how this should work or hooked up the device improperly somehow?

Thank you for your time,

Jason​The response I got back was the following:
Jason,
 
Which controller are you using?
 Could you send us the wiring diagram?
 Usually the signal return(RTN) shouldn't connect to 144V battery minus.
 Can you change with a big fuse?
 
Thanks, Fany
​To which I responded:Good morning Fany,

_Which controller are you using?_

It is an EVNetics Soliton1.

_Could you send us the wiring diagram?_

I have attached a rough MS Paint hand drawn diagram as well as a picture of the actual wiring in the car for your reference.

_Usually the signal return(RTN) shouldn't connect to 144V battery minus._

If you are referring to the Black "Input (-)" wire on the converter... Doesn't that, by necessity, need to be connected to the 144v pack negative side in order to complete the high voltage circuit?

_Can you change with a big fuse?_

The fuse holder is fairly small, and originally shipped with a 15amp fuse. I have tried replacing it with a 25amp and 30amp fuse and both blew in exactly the same manner as the original...

I am not sure if it makes a difference or not, but the largest "voltage" I could find a fuse that would fit into that holder at the auto parts store was a 32v one. Anything higher appeared to require a physically larger fuse that would not fit into the holder.

Thank you for your time and assistance with this matter,

Jason 
​














 
​
The response I got back was:

Jason,

I think you may calculate the current on the loop of the DC/DC input.
How much is the current between the controller and battery?I saw you have installed 600A fuse for the main loop.
You may ask the controller supplier to comfirm the current on the controller input.
Then you can get the parameter of the fuse for the DC/DC input.
If the current is a little high,you can consider the fuse with piece package.

Thanks,
Fany
​ I don't really understand what she is asking there about the battery current, and specifically why that would make any difference as the DC/DC Converter is wired in parallel (not in series) with the Controller...?

According to the product website, this converter has an operating voltage range of 112v to 195v. Based on the data logger data, the Soliton1 is limiting the bottom edge of the pack sag to 120v and the highest I have ever measured the pack at is at 160v (while charging on the Manzanita).

Since the converter was working perfectly fine with my wiring and battery pack at a standstill and minor current draw, and after blowing yet another 10 30amp "slow blow" fuses at modest speeds, I decided enough was enough and took a rather drastic action... I cut out the original fuse holder entirely and put a 50amp/50volt DC breaker in it's place.









​
After numerous test drives since then, the breaker hasn't tripped yet, even under extreme and prolonged battery pack draw during heavy acceleration. The DC/DC converter has also been working perfectly, keeping the accessory battery topped off nicely (even with every light, radio, and fan on that I could throw at it). Lastly, after heavy use the converter was only "slightly warm" to the touch.

My conclusion is that either the relatively flimsy fuse holder was the actual cause for the problem, or I am getting surges (from the controller?) somewhere between 30 and 50 amps coming out of my battery pack for some bizarre reason. 

Either way, the problem seems to be resolved. Even though I likely voided my DC/DC Converter warranty in the process, at least it now actually functions, so that's good enough for me. 

Take care,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

*Update:*

Now that I have my Manzanita PFC40M and am able to charge my whole pack in one fell swoop (rather than each battery individually), I started to stretch the EV's proverbial legs a bit more and have been driving it all over town, up on the highway, up and over really steep hills, etc.

While I am certainly not in the same league as a professional race driver or anything, I am driving it pretty much exactly as hard as I would any of my gas powered 4 cylinder Turbo Dodge Daytona's (shifting normally) and the acceleration feels nearly identical.

Today, I used the Soliton1 Logger program to capture the data during a 0 to 60 mph speed test, up a slightly hilly (but very straight) highway on-ramp. My brother came along as a passenger and ran the laptop for me, so I could leave my full concentration on the road and digital speedometer.

Here is the data for the 0-60 fairly hard acceleration, in about 19 seconds:























​
I found it pretty interesting from the graphs that you can see exactly where my 4 gear shift points were (didn't even need 5th to hit 60 mph). I had my brother stop the logger at this point, but proceeded along the highway down a couple of exits and back. Traffic was fairly heavy so I was restricted to around 70 mph or so for most of the trip since there was always some other driver in my way. 

On the return trip, we got back up on the highway at the middle exit. I had my brother rename the first logger.txt file and then start up the logger again as I accelerated up the on-ramp. This ramp is very steep and is immediately followed by a hill, so I think it is a great acceleration stress-test for the car.

The following graphs depict the data from this leg of the trip (almost exactly 2.5 miles), during which we accelerated at a goodly clip up those inclines. We hit 85 mph while in 5th gear about the time we got to the long/straight off-ramp again and finally had a section of road without someone puttering along on their Sunday drive in front of me. 
























​ Some interesting statistics about today's test run:Total distance traveled: 13.4 miles
Start Pack Voltage (Resting): 156.1v
End Pack Voltage (Resting): 149.6v

Calculated "Empty" Voltage: 120v (12x 10.0v)
Calculated Maximum Range: ~73 miles?​All-in-all I am extremely pleased with how well the EV is performing in these real world road tests. The Soliton1 controller seems to be doing a great job of protecting the batteries and motor from my lead foot, while still delivering impressive acceleration and overall mechanical power at the wheels.

Also, it should be noted that I am running with the fairly conservative Soliton1 settings as follows:









Anyway, just figured I would continue boring everyone with my finding thus far... 

Jason​


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Hi Jason,
glad to hear things are working pretty good.
I think your tach issue will get figured out by the evnetics team, sorry I don't have any experience with the kelly DCDC to help you....
But, your voltage/state of charge numbers are a little off, and consequently your range estimate...the chart below should help. Pretty much at 11 volts per battery the car is not moving, you would never be able to drive it down to 10 volts. (I shouldn't say never!) I would say you don't want to get below 140 volts (resting) to preserve your pack.(approx 75% discharged)
sorry to be the bearer of bad news  Actually, your range is looking good going by your readings.
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com 
State of Charge 12v battery voltage
100 % ----------------12.7+
90 --------------------12.50
80-------------------- 12.42
70 --------------------12.32
60 --------------------12.20
50 --------------------12.06
40 --------------------11.90
30 --------------------11.75
20 --------------------11.58
10 --------------------11.31
0 ---------------------10.50


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> Ever since my first test drive I have been having an odd problem with the small inline fuse for the DC/DC converter that kept repeatedly blowing.
> ...
> My conclusion is that either the relatively flimsy fuse holder was the actual cause for the problem, or I am getting surges (from the controller?) somewhere between 30 and 50 amps coming out of my battery pack for some bizarre reason.


You aren't getting "surges" from the Soliton1, per se, but it does draw current from the battery pack in pulses, just like any other dc motor controller, which can cause the voltage seen right at the Soliton1's battery terminals to vary as much as +/-20V. The magnitude of this "ripple voltage" is inversely proportional to switching frequency so you could try running in Quiet mode instead and see if that helps (might also help with the tachometer situation, though if our experience is a guide, it will actually make the tachometer behave even worse...).

In any case, it is usually a bad idea to connect any small loads like the DC/DC converter directly to the Soliton1's battery terminals. One potential work around would be to feed the dc/dc through a 10A/600V rectifier. That would isolate it from the trough of the ripple voltage.

Also, the input capacitor inside the Soliton1 is made to handle high ripple currents; the capacitor(s) inside the dc/dc converter aren't, and connecting it right to the Soliton1 essentially exposes it the same ripple. One customer of ours kept blowing Belktronix dc/dc converters because of this, but once the guy that makes them realized what was happening he was able to modify his design slightly to accommodate the "real world".


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



EV-propulsion.com said:


> Pretty much at 11 volts per battery the car is not moving, you would never be able to drive it down to 10 volts. (I shouldn't say never!) I would say you don't want to get below 140 volts (resting) to preserve your pack.(approx 75% discharged)
> sorry to be the bearer of bad news


Hi Mike,

Thank you for the correction. I was mistakenly under the impression that 10v per battery _was_ the 20% DoD point on a 12v battery, rather than it being the 0% DoD point. Oops!

Thankfully range is really not that big of a deal for me. Even if I can only get 30 miles out of the pack (while pulling high performance acceleration and traversing large hills as I have been doing during testing) then that should be sufficient for my needs.

More range would be nicer, of course, so that's always an option if I want to shell out for a 4x more expensive 200AH LifePO4 battery pack at some point on down the road. 

Thanks again,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*

Hi Tesseract,

Thank you for information on the ripple voltage. That seems likely to be the cause of the 30amp fuses blowing. Thankfully the 50amp circuit breaker does seem to provide enough headroom as it is not kicking at this point, even under some rather massive draws during the 0-60 and 85 mph tests.

The DC/DC converter also appears to be able to absorb/handle those ripples without blowing up (so far). Time-will-tell if I end up smoking the converter, but for a $150 part, plus a $7 circuit breaker, I guess it's worth the risk to see how it fares.

My understanding, which may be completely incorrect, was that since this converter is an isolated unit, that the input power ripples should not substantially affect the output voltage to the accessory battery. That theory also seems to be supported by the voltage display remaining remarkably stable at 13.5 volts and does not seem to be jumping about any.



Tesseract said:


> In any case, it is usually a bad idea to connect any small loads like the DC/DC converter directly to the Soliton1's battery terminals. One potential work around would be to feed the dc/dc through a 10A/600V rectifier. That would isolate it from the trough of the ripple voltage.


Technically neither DC/DC converter high voltage input wire is attached directly to the Soliton1's battery terminals. However they are attached to the battery pack terminal (negative) and fuse terminal (positive) on the other end of the 2/0 AWG welding cables that are then connected to the Soliton1's terminals, so I guess that is pretty much the same thing?

My understanding was that all full Pack Voltage connections: The DC/DC Converter, Charger, Heater, and Controller should be wired in parallel with each other at "most positive" and "most negative" terminals of the battery pack... Isn't that the only way they can/should be wired, or am I missing something?

Personally, I would rather not add the complexity of another component (such as the rectifier you mentioned) unless absolutely necessary... But will definitely revisit the topic when/if the converter smokes and I need to purchase a new one.

Thank you again for your feedback and input,

Jason


----------



## belktronix (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Tesseract said:


> You aren't getting "surges" from the Soliton1, per se, but it does draw current from the battery pack in pulses, just like any other dc motor controller, which can cause the voltage seen right at the Soliton1's battery terminals to vary as much as +/-20V. The magnitude of this "ripple voltage" is inversely proportional to switching frequency so you could try running in Quiet mode instead and see if that helps (might also help with the tachometer situation, though if our experience is a guide, it will actually make the tachometer behave even worse...).
> 
> In any case, it is usually a bad idea to connect any small loads like the DC/DC converter directly to the Soliton1's battery terminals. One potential work around would be to feed the dc/dc through a 10A/600V rectifier. That would isolate it from the trough of the ripple voltage.
> 
> Also, the input capacitor inside the Soliton1 is made to handle high ripple currents; the capacitor(s) inside the dc/dc converter aren't, and connecting it right to the Soliton1 essentially exposes it the same ripple. One customer of ours kept blowing Belktronix dc/dc converters because of this, but once the guy that makes them realized what was happening he was able to modify his design slightly to accommodate the "real world".


Wow, I didn't know the "real world" would ever consider reducing the bulk input capacitance on a EV controller below 100uF. 

Usually those in this "real world" referred to here end up making more work for us outside the "real world".. Thank You for letting us who live outside this "real world" see how much bulk cap is inside your controllers...

It is a nice way to per se, try to lighten up the discussion? Its not a matter on what the DC-DC input cap can handle, its a matter of what the ripple voltage showing up on the DC-DC input cap terminals is what does matter. If you have a ripple voltage, * cap ESR = ripple current. So for a typical cap of 560uF, its around 0.3 ohms, for only a 20V excursion (1 direction) would be 66A at the input cap!

The truth of the matter is that the controller's bulk input capacitance serves to minimize the controller's cycle by cycle influence on the pack (and other connected circuitry) so it isn't subjected to 40V of "ripple voltage". It serves to integrate the motor current waveform so that you see a net DC current flow from the pack in ratio to the duty cycle & output current. Without bulk capacitance at the controller, it will chop up the pack voltage without much current integration and cause problems upstream. Yes, the resulting voltage ripple is directly related to the controller's input capacitance, (for a given pack voltage, PWM frequency, output current, motor resistance, inductance, etc...) but take away input capacitance, things change dramatically.

Thus, the bulk input cap of any DC-DC can deal with the 4-5 volts of ripple that is there. Raising the PWM frequency of the controller is one way to reduce it, but its effect is -still there- unless you increase it high enough (50Khz) where the cap value is actually starting to integrate the current waveform. 

The reality of all this? Ripple voltage (which will translate to ripple current) will affect anything connected to your controller or the battery pack, but what about further upstream, could it reach into the pack itself by altering the Peukert factor for your pack of Flooded Lead Acid? Or heating up your pack of LiFePO4's? Its going somewhere and doing something...can it really be... good? 

Imagine my surprise when taking apart the DC-DC to evaluate why it died, only to find its input cap was desoldered! Now its going to take at least 40 amps of ripple current to get things hot enough to unsolder a 560uF cap, which confirms the serious ripple voltage mentioned above. I don't think a diode is going to do anyone much good since the DC-DC will drain its input cap down where the "ripple voltage" sags to, before the next PWM cycle takes place. Hence, they will likely need to add a series inductor to deal with the problem, like I did.

And from a system approach, this is the scenario that will happen when "all things considered"... isn't.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



belktronix said:


> Wow, I didn't know the "real world" would ever consider reducing the bulk input capacitance on a EV controller below 100uF.


It's Brian, right? First off, let's correct one error: the capacitor inside the Soliton1 is 500uF, not 100uF. [EDIT - adding the following:] Worst case ripple current in a buck converter occurs at 50% duty cycle and maximum output current. For a 1000A controller that would 500Arms of ripple reflected to the input (battery) terminals. That is to say, drawing 1000A pulses 50% of the time from the input capacitor. There is a certain amount of capacitance required to achieve a certain dV/dt, of course, but at this power level it is far more important to minimize ESR rather than numerically increase capacitance. This is where a film capacitor shines, and that is why I chose it over a bank of electrolytics that are destined to dry out and die a horrible death.

Secondly, your assumption that your DC/DC converter should only have to live with 4-5Vpp of ripple in an EV is, to put it bluntly, woefully optimistic. Good engineering practice suggests setting the input capacitance of a buck converter fed by batteries to result in 20-25% ripple. Controllers that use electrolytic capacitors, though, invariably need to use far more capacitance to get the ripple current rating high enough. Not so with the Soliton1 - the single polypropylene film capacitor has 7nH of ESL and 5mΩ of ESR all on its own.

I have not looked at your dc/dc converter, but my guess is that you selected an input capacitor with a ripple current rating appropriate for what the converter itself would impose upon it - which is probably all of about 3-4Arms. That you think you are entitled to less than 5Vpp of ripple across the traction pack sort of gives that away.

Put a choke in front of the capacitor inside your dc/dc converter and the problem is solved, [EDIT - changed the following:] and I see you have done that so why did you have to go on the attack here?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: Dodge Daytona EV Pre-Build/Build Thread*



Xoryn said:


> ...
> My understanding, which may be completely incorrect, was that since this converter is an isolated unit, that the input power ripples should not substantially affect the output voltage to the accessory battery. That theory also seems to be supported by the voltage display remaining remarkably stable at 13.5 volts and does not seem to be jumping about any.


That is correct... as long as the ripple frequency from the controller (in this case, 8kHz in performance mode and 14kHz in quiet) is below the crossover frequency of the regulating loop inside the dc/dc converter. That, actually, is not a bet I would make!



Xoryn said:


> Technically neither DC/DC converter high voltage input wire is attached directly to the Soliton1's battery terminals. However they are attached to the battery pack terminal (negative) and fuse terminal (positive) on the other end of the 2/0 AWG welding cables that are then connected to the Soliton1's terminals, so I guess that is pretty much the same thing?


No, connecting the dc/dc converter right at the battery pack (preferred) rather than at the Soliton1 is very different because of the inductance of the battery-to-controller cables. In general, you want to minimize the inductance of these cables (by running the (+) and (-) side by side as much as possible) to let the batteries and controller work together best (and to minimize radiated noise!).



Xoryn said:


> My understanding was that all full Pack Voltage connections: The DC/DC Converter, Charger, Heater, and Controller should be wired in parallel with each other at "most positive" and "most negative" terminals of the battery pack... Isn't that the only way they can/should be wired, or am I missing something?


Your understanding is correct, though it is also acceptable to have a separate +/- pair from the battery pack to a contactor or other common termination point for feeding the "low power" loads all at once, and apart from the controller (even a 25A charger is low power compared to a 1000A controller  )

Oh, and FWIW, IOTA and Vicor dc/dc converters seem perfectly happy working alongside the Soliton1, even when wired directly to its battery terminals.


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 88 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon all,

Wow, it's been a couple of months since my last post... The summer has been quite hectic thus far with dozens of house, car, and other projects happening all-at-once and taking the time to document my EV project progress has sadly been unavailable. However, much has been done on the EV in the meantime, so I wanted to get this thread updated with the latest news.

Shortly after my last post, while driving to work, a "bad noise" started happening under the hood... It sounded much like how I would imagine a bolt in a blender would, and seemed to be coming from either the transmission itself or from inside the bell housing. 

Rather than have the car towed, I ended up driving the car home from work that day, and mid-way the sound mysteriously disappeared... Fearing that somehow one of the bolts holding taper lock adapter, flywheel, or pressure plate had come out and was flinging around inside there, the only choice I had was to pull the motor out and have a look. 

Unfortunately, everything in the engine bay is more-or-less built around the motor & transmission. Therefore, performing this action means pulling the front batteries, controller, wiring, and "erector set" motor support structure as well. It was not really too bad, but did take an entire afternoon for one guy in his garage, without the benefit of a lift, to carefully dismantle.

As it turned out, there were no loose bolts after all, and I was unable to replicate the noise. My theory is that one of the 'synchronizers' inside the transmission itself had popped out, banged around, and either found it's way back where it was supposed to go on it's own, or was ground up to power, or ended up wedging itself someplace out-of-the way of any moving parts in there. In any case, the transmission shifts fine at this point and the noise is gone, so I guess I'll just continue to drive it and hope for the best.

While I had the motor out, I pulled every bolt out, ensured they each had liberal amounts of thread-lock on them, and securely tightened each one by hand as much as I could. I took pictures along the way, since I had neglected to do so the first time around.








_NetGain WarP 9 DC Motor_








_NetGain WarP 9 DC Motor (Tailshaft View)_








_ Taper-Lock Adapter & Flywheel_








_Flywheel, Clutch, & Special Alignment Tool_








_Flywheel, Clutch, & Special Alignment Tool (Profile)_








_Flywheel, Clutch, & Pressure Plate_

I then re-assembled everything in the course of another full afternoon and the car was ready to roll again... Unfortunately the first time I put my foot on the pedal, I knew something was horribly wrong, as a brand new "bad noise" happened, this time sounding more like a saw grinding metal.

After giving it some thought, I realized what had happened: When I had tightened the bolts on the Flywheel to Taper Lock Adapter, it had squashed flat the spacer ring from the original engine, which reduced the flywheel clearance by a fraction of an inch more than it was before.

While the motor was outside of the car, the flywheel had about 1/32" clearance from the aluminum plate and was able to spin freely. However, once the motor was bolted into the transmission and had the clutch arm pressing on the pressure plate, that was just enough to close that gap and cause it to bind up. 

So... Once again the only option was to pull the entire car apart, yet again. I pulled the spacer ring and a friend of mine was kind enough to craft me a new one about about 3 times thicker than the original. With that in place, it now gives the flywheel plenty of clearance, even with the clutch arm pushing on it. After one more round of the re-assemble everything game, the car is once again back on the road. It also no longer has any bad noises happening and is working rather well again. 

More updates to follow soon,

Jason
​


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: 88 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Now you can say you built 3 electric cars!  Glad to hear it was resolved though..
mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 88 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

*Update:*

I managed to get the power steering pump, along with the fluid reservoir, physically mounted in the car. I then took it to a local garage to have them hook up the high pressure and return hoses for the Power Steering pump. I haven't gotten a chance to wire up the electrical bits that came as part of the kit, nor to run fluid through it, but at least the more difficult mechanical pieces are now in place.

I also installed a standard 220 Volt, 50 Amp NEMA 14-50R receptacle in the rear of the engine compartment and ran heavy duty 4 wire cable down the center channel (formerly occupied by the exhaust system) to the passenger-side rear of the vehicle, where the old gas filler pipe used to be.








_Power Steering Pump & Charger Receptacle_








_Power Steering Pump & Charger Receptacle (Closeup)_

In order to securely mount the battery charger in the car, I was able to find a good spot right above the front passenger-side wheel well, and bolted a mounting bracket of sorts there.








_Charger Mounting Bracket_

Then I mounted the Manzanita PFC40 charger on that, plugged the AC cable into the NEMA 14-50R receptacle, and plugged the DC cable into the battery pack. Overall I am rather pleased with how it fit in there, with the power switch and control panel easily seen & accessible as needed.








_Manzanita PFC40 Charger Installed_








_Accessible Charger _Console

Last, but not least, I purchased the following items for the charging port and AC power cable requirements:Reliance Controls 50-Amp Power Inlet Kit (~$60)
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-PK50/p1703.html

Gen-Tran 50-Amp (25 Foot) Generator Power Cord (~$200)
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Gen-Tran-RJB06425SB/p991.html​I ended up encasing the cable in heavy-duty PEX tubing because the original gas filler pipe on this Dodge Daytona was fairly exposed as it runs inside the wheel well itself. While the PEX is very strong and flinging stone resistant, it caused the entire assembly to be rather rigid and difficult to work with. Eventually I managed to wrangle it all in place, got it properly secured, and I think the end result came out fairly well.








_New "Gas" Cap_








_Fuel Inlet Port_








_50 Amp Twist-Lock Plug_








_Fill 'er Up_

Fun stuff!

Jason​


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 88 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*



EV-propulsion.com said:


> Now you can say you built 3 electric cars!  Glad to hear it was resolved though..
> mike
> www.EV-propulsion.com



Hi Mike,

Yeah I am definitely getting good at the whole rip it apart and re-assemble process... Should be 'easy' to move it all to a rust-free body at some point now. 

I was also able to improve my "erector set" design a bit each time as well, now that I have a better idea of what structural parts were really supporting anything and those that were not actually needed.

It was a painful process, but I learned/improved from my errors, so that is kinda the whole point, right? 

Take care,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 88 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon,

Once again the months have slipped on by and I haven't been keeping this post updated very well, sorry about that...

In the last few months I have implemented some key changes to the high voltage wiring in the engine compartment in an effort to both "clean up" the cabling as well as to add some key components that I was missing.








_Rewired Engine Compartment_

As I now have several devices attached directly to the full battery pack (controller, charger, DC/DC converter, and shunt) it became evident that splicing everything together with a big bolt wrapped in electrical tape just wasn't very professional looking or easy to maintain. Therefore I purchased these nifty 3/8" stud isolated bus bars to secure everything together and also allow for easy addition of new components in the future (such as a heater and/or AC unit).








_High Voltage Positive Bus Bar_








_High Voltage Negative Bus Bar_

I also realized that it would be much more convenient to have a maintenance cut-off switch than having to manually unbolt one of the battery cables every time I wanted to futz with the electrical system in the car. To that end, I purchased a 250amp manual disconnect switch (with magnetic blowouts) and installed it in a plastic weather-resistant electrical box. It is spliced in between battery #5 and #6.
​







_Maintenance Cut-Off Switch_

Up to now I have been just driving it and hoping I have enough juice to get back home, with only a simple multimeter to measure voltage manually. After seeing the Victron Energy shunt & instrumentation kit on Jack Rickard's EVTV program I realized that it would be rather nice to have some indication of what my battery state was at while actually driving the car.

I contacted Peter Kennedy Yacht Services and ordered a BMV602HS unit. Peter was very nice, helped answer some questions I had regarding the kit, and got it shipped out promptly.

I noted that the weatherproof enclosure that came with the kit had a fair amount of extra room inside it, so I modified it slightly in order to cram in my giant 600 volt fuse. It was a tight fit and the 2/0 AWG welding cable I use was a bit tricky to route into the box, but by virtue of "wiring it up backwards" I think it came out pretty well.

(Note: The current still flows in the proper direction, it's just that the "Battery" & "Load" _labels_ on the outside of the enclosure are now opposite to how they are actually connected to Bus Bar & Pack respectively.)
​







_Modified Victron Energy Shunt Box_

In the passenger compartment, I replaced the now meaningless Turbo Boost gauge with the Victron Energy display. I was able to utilize the original piece of plexiglass on the existing cluster to securely mount the display. Now I can see the real-time pack voltage, amps consumed, current amp draw, and estimated SOC % easily while driving. Very cool!
​







_New Instrumentation Cluster_​
As can be seen in the picture above, I have also modified the original Daytona's Chonometer cluster to install 5 self-illuminated low voltage toggle switches. It is a work-in-progress and they are not technically hooked up to anything yet. However, my goal is to be able to easily toggle off various loud noise producing devices such as the electric power steering pump, power brake vacuum pump, etc. There is nothing more annoying than showing off my nearly silent car as it's running with just the tiny Soliton1 fans purring and then it all being drowned out by the obnoxious (and largely optional) power steering or vacuum pump. 

Anyway, I have been driving the EV around town just about every day, all throughout the summer and now on into the fall. I wander out to the garage, power off the charger, unplug it, hop in, and drive it to work or the store or the movies or wherever I happen to want to go that day, just like I would in any other completely reliable vehicle.

When I get home, I just plug it back in, flip on the charger, and totally forget about it until the next time I need to actually go somewhere. I am constantly amazed that something I put together, with next-to-no mechanical expertise or experience, "just... goes".

Recently several friends/extended family members have come to visit and there have been numerous rides in my electric car, even despite the Dodge Daytona's legendary tiny back seats being a bit cramped for anyone over the age of about 10. 

Typically I like to take a trip "around the block", which includes hopping on the freeway to demonstrate both the car's zippy acceleration and it's ability to sprint right along with traffic at 80+ MPH (even with 2 or 3 passengers).

Here are some random pictures from a nice sunny day when I was out-and-about in my EV. Yes, it still needs a lot of body work and a fresh coat of paint to make it sexy and presentable to the masses, but for now... it works.























​ 
I'll keep everyone posted of my ongoing progress, take care,

Jason​


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon,

It has been many months since my last EV status update, so I figured I would invest the time to write up what I have been up to lately on this project.

This winter has been extreme, even for those of us from Central New York State who are used to the snow and reasonably cold temperatures. It became quickly apparent that having no heat in the EV was not only unpleasant, it was also unsafe due to the front & side windows fogging up. Thus, I was unable to drive it until this issue was resolved.

Inspired by Kyle Meier's 1986 Dodge Daytona EV conversion project and in specific the heater core removal and ceramic heater element installation he did for his car, I came up with a plan implement a similar system on mine. After seeing his trails and tribulations in removing most of the dash in order to get that climate control box out, I started looking for alternatives and noted that I could somewhat easily see the underside of that heater box...








_Heater Core Box Bottom_​
I got to thinking that I might be able to extract the heater core by cutting out the bottom of that box directly underneath it, rather than pull all of the dash & ductwork components out. So I hauled out my Dremel-equivalent tool, contorted myself into a most awkward position upside down under the dash, and proceeded to "carefully" route out a roughly rectangular shaped hole in the bottom of the box.








_Cut Heater Core Box_​
I took extreme care while cutting out the bottom of the box in order to remove as little of the support structure as possible and also to avoid damaging the hot/cold flap control mechanism. (The lever for this mechanism is at the far right side in the photo below, just beyond the end of the cut section.)








_Carefully Avoided Flap Control Mechanism_​
The heater core pipes protruded out into the engine bay, and were surrounded on all sides by the plastic of the box, so I had to dig away at the plastic for a while in order to remove it. I also had to break off the ends of the semi-soft copper pipes by wiggling them back and forth a lot by hand.








_Heater Core Pipes_​
Removing the ends of the copper pipes allowed the heater core to slide over and down out of the plastic box, until the remaining section of the pipes hit the accelerator pedal and revealed just how tall the core was after all...








_Heater Core Revealed_​
Due to the height of the core and very limited amount of "headroom" under there, I was forced to angle the core quite a bit in order to extricate it from the box. Unfortunately this put a great deal of stress on the poor 23+ year old plastic and a couple large chunks of plastic broke free during the process.

Thankfully these plastic pieces were along the rear bottom of the box and neither the hot/cold nor panel/floor flap mechanisms were affected. Even though the resulted ended up being a lot less "clean" looking than I was going for originally, the missing chunks can easily be repaired with a bit of glue (or duct tape in this case).








_Empty Heater Core Box_​
(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

Here is what the heater core looked like after I finally extracted it from the box and got it out of the car. Note that I had to end up breaking off most of the soft copper piping a well as the flat metal piece in order to get it to clear the gas pedal assembly.








_Extracted Heater Core_​
Rather than go out a purchase a new ceramic space heater, or buy an element online, I ended up digging up a couple relatively old (mid-90's) electric space heaters I had been using for years. One of these got the short straw and was sacrificed to the EV project for it's ceramic element.








_"Donated" Space Heater_​
I had a couple Anderson SB50 style plugs with heavy duty wiring that I pulled out of some dead computer UPS units a while back, so I wired them up to the ceramic element I extracted from the space heater.








_Ceramic Heater Element_​
By laying the ceramic element on top of the heater core, I could see that it was a bit smaller than about half of the core.








_Ceramic Heater Element & Core Sizing_​
Using my table saw with a metal cutting blade, I chopped through the heater core to trim off the edge where the copper tubing used to be, and used the same technique to cut out a rectangular shaped hole exactly sized to the ceramic element width. In hind-sight, something along the lines of a jigsaw might have been more precise, but it got the job done. After searching online for a suitable way to securely hold the ceramic element within the core, I stumbled upon the magic of high-temperature 700+ degree rated silicone that is typically used inside of gas engines to create gasket seals.








_Ceramic Heater & Core With Silicon (Edge View)_​
The "Ultra Copper" compound was fairly easy to work with and even with it only being attached at the top, it was strong enough to securely hold the element in place, while remaining semi-flexible even after it was completely cured.








_Ceramic Heater & Core With Silicon (Pass One)_​
I proceeded to test the heck out of this setup by hooking it up to my battery pack and running the ceramic element (outside of the car, with little or no active airflow) over the course of a couple days. In this manner, I determined that it was not going to burst into flames and after it had finished curing, there was no longer any odor coming off of the silicon, so I am fairly sure it is not releasing any more toxic fumes when heated and is safe to install in the cabin.

I ended up using the silicone to fill in the rest of the space below the ceramic element and even encased all of the wires within it too. This resulted in the element being very securely held within the heater core and has helped encourage most of the airflow to be directed through, rather than around, it.








_Ceramic Heater & Core With Silicon (Pass Two)_​
I had all sorts of grand ideas about how to re-assemble the bottom of the box with pieces of cut ABS plastic, metal fasteners, and lots of epoxy... But then I got to thinking that perhaps simple duct tape would do the job nicely. It isn't the prettiest thing in the world, but it keeps the air blowing inside the box correctly, holds the core in place surprisingly well, and will be relatively easy to remove for servicing/modifications on down the road.








_Revised Heater Core Re-Installed_​
(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

The electrical wiring for the Ceramic Heater Element comes through the firewall exactly where the old heater core pipes used to. I covered up the hole surrounding the wiring with black duct tape, which is backed by the silver duct tape on the inside, forming a very effective and sturdy seal.








_Engine Compartment Heater Wiring_​
In order to have a convenient disconnect for installation and servicing, I used another of those recycled Anderson SB50 style plugs. I securely attached the negative wire directly to the battery pack negative bus bar, the positive wire to the "A2" terminal of a Tyco Kilovac EV200 Contactor, and the "A1" terminal to the battery pack positive bus bar. The contactor's 12V positive wire is connected to a toggle switch inside the passenger compartment, and it's 12V negative wire is grounded to the chassis of the car.








_Engine Compartment Heater Wiring_​
Since I needed a switch inside the passenger compartment to control the heater contactor anyway, I also took this opportunity to clean up some of the 12V wiring. I ran two extra spools of wire already run and switched, resting in their original plastic packaging, that are awaiting future accessories.








_Cleaned Up 12V & Extra Wire_​
This is what the full current engine bay layout looks as of this moment in time.








_Current Engine Bay_​
Whenever practical, I have encased all low voltage wiring in plastic wiring looms. Not only does this help protect the wires from rubbing on anything, but is an inexpensive way to give the entire setup a bit of a semi-professional and clean appearance. Here is a shot of the 8 new 12V wires, the Shunt Box telephone-style communications wire, and the Soliton1 Ethernet cable where they all come through the firewall under the dash.








_Under Dash EV Wiring Looms_​
I needed some way to conveniently be able to toggle on and off the various EV components currently installed in the car, namely: the Power Steering Pump, the Soliton1 Controller, and the Ceramic heater core contactor. In addition, I wanted to have some extra switches available for future accessories such as the Power Brake Booster and possibly an Electric AC unit.

I had previously purchased and rough-fit 5 toggle switches for this purpose, but they were not actually wired to anything until recently. They are mounted in a modified plastic enclosure that came out of the Daytona originally, which previously contained a dead clock/timer unit labeled as a "Chronometer". I glued on a piece of black rubber trim molding (like you would use around the perimeter of a room), giving the unit a nice finished look.

I found a nice little 6-fuse block at a local auto parts store and wired the positive "in" for each switch to that, effectively using the block as the 12V positive distribution point for all the switches. In order to be able to easily identify which component each switch would be connected to, I purchased unique colored wire for each one.








_Component Switches & Fuse Block_​
Each switch is also internally lighted, thus they need to be grounded, so I wired all of their grounds to a common point and secured them with a bolt, two flat washers, a lock washer, and a nut.








_Component Switches & Fuse Block_​
The entire assembly was then installed in the car, with the ignition accessory wire (positive 12V supplied when the key is in the "on" position) hooked up to the main terminal on the Fuse Block. Power then flows from there through the individual fuses to each of the switches. When each switch is toggled "on", +12V power is then supplied through the correspondingly colored wire out into the engine bay to the specific component. Although the switch light grounds could have been attached to any available ground in the dash, I opted to use a "home run" all the way back to the -12V common chassis ground location in the engine bay anyway.

The switches & wire colors are setup as follows, from left to right:#1 - Pink - Power Steering Pump
#2 - Blue - Power Brake Vacuum Pump (Currently Unused)
#3 - Green - EVNetics Soliton1 Controller
#4 - White - Air Conditioning Compressor (Currently Unused)
#5 - Yellow - Ceramic Heater Core​






_Component Switches & Fuse Block_​
This is what the finished switches look like installed in the dash. I may label them at some point, but rather like the clean/mysterious look of them without labels, for now.








_Current Dashboard With Installed Switches_​
(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

Now that I have most of the EV components installed, an easy way to switch them on/off, and a gauge to show me how much draw is happening on the battery pack, it seemed like a good a time as any to test out each state and document how much power was being consumed.

With all switches in the down ("off") position, the Victron Energy Gauge shows a steady draw of about 0.2 amps, which is the DC to DC Converter continuously maintaining the charge on the accessory battery. I am considering this the baseline for all subsequent measurements as that load is always present, regardless if the car is "on" or not.

Just for reference, with the fan blower on it's highest setting and all EV components turned off, the gauge shows a surprisingly high draw of about 2.4 amps! 








_Fan Blower On High (2.41A)_​
With the blower fan off and the only EV component turned on, we can see the Soliton1 is drawing roughly 0.4 amps (subtracting out the DC-to-DC converter load as noted above).








_Soliton1 Switched On (0.59A)_​
With the LOUD Power Steering pump on it was drawing a about 2.2 amps (just maintaining pressure, while not even doing a lot of "work" as the steering wheel wasn't being moved). Note: Again, the Soliton and DC-to-DC converter loads were subtracted.








_Soliton1 + Power Steering Pump On (2.78A)_​
Turning on the heater causes the amp draw to spike to about 11 amps initially, then after a few seconds it stabilizes at right around 8 amps. This was a non-exact test, because the fan blower needs to run to keep the air moving across the element and as more airflow increases the more power both the blower and the heating element will consume. After some experimentation, it seemed that the medium fan blower speed (3 out of 5) was the most ideal as any higher speeds felt like it was blowing more cold air than warm.









_Heater + Fan Blower On Medium (8.85A)_​
With everything powered on, including the radio blaring and the heater pushing out warm air, I ended up with a parked standard draw of around 11.2 amps.








_Soliton1 + Power Steering + Heater + Medium Fan Blower (11.2A)_​
The cockpit, from the driver's perspective, while revving the engine in neutral, with everything on...








_Current Dashboard_​
(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

Now that I have heat in the EV, I have been driving it pretty much every day to work, running errands, hopping up on the highway for brief periods, and generally traipsing around town in the snow, slush, and icy road conditions without a problem. I am not sure if it's just the Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires I have on it or if the added weight from the batteries that is doing it, but the car just powers smoothly and securely through the ice & snow without skipping a beat.

If my calculations are correct, the heater is only pulling about 8 amps (at ~144V) which means it must be producing a maximum possible heat output of about 1152 watts (8 * 144, assuming no conversion losses)... That is not a tremendous amount of heat by any estimation, and in an un-insulated/drafty vehicle, it is definitely not going to cook anybody out of the car anytime soon.

However, it does manage to produce a steady amount of warm air and if I leave the heater & fan going for a while (with the charger still on, so as not to drain my pack), it does eventually get comfortably warm, even in our lovely 0 to 20 F temperatures.

The ride home after the car has been sitting in the parking lot at work all day tends to be a bit chilly, but then again it's more-or-less the same in my gas-powered Daytonas, since their engines rarely get hot enough during my 2 mile commute to produce any heat in the cabin anyway.

Regardless, the modest warm air produced is sufficient to keep the windows from fogging up, and make it "warmer than outside" in the cabin, so that's really good enough for now. At some point I may toss another, identical, ceramic element next to the first within the modified heater core. Since everything was assembled with Duct tape, it would be fairly trivial to pull out the core again, splice in another element, and then tape it back together again. With double the heat output (and amp draw), it might just be enough to warm the cabin sufficiently.

Lastly, I figured I would finish up this massive series of posts by sharing some pictures of the weather conditions the 1988 Daytona EV gets to deal with on a daily basis here in Central New York, as of February 2011...








_Buried Daytona Parts Car_









_Buried Daytona ICE Fleet_









_Out & About In Winter_









_Time To Test That Heater_









_Buried Daytona EV (Outdoor Charging)_​
Take care,

Jason


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon,

Slow and steady progress continues on the 1988 Dodge Daytona EV, so I figured I would take the time to toss in another status update for anyone interested.

First off, I have continued to drive the EV most days all throughout the harsh Central New York winter and into the spring. One day while out shopping recently, I happened to snap a photo of the trunk loaded up with a pile of groceries in the back. You can see that that was enough room for twelve 12-packs of soda along with a 35 lbs pail of cat litter behind the rear batteries. The rear springs/shocks were sagging a bit under the load, but the car drove just fine.








Grocery Shopping With My Daily Driver​
In other news, I finally "bit the bullet" and have placed an order for 60 China Aviation Lithium Battery Company (CALB) 180 AHA LiFePO4 cells. I was particularly inspired by Jack Richard's Speedster Part Duex project as they ended up using the same EVNetics Soliton1 controller and NetGain WarP 9 motor that I have in my EV currently, with their 57 CALB cells stuffed into it. Since the chassis of the Dodge Daytona's are a bit larger and the car is heavier overall, I set my goal on finding room for 60 of these same cells, and am hoping for relatively similar performance numbers when all is said and done.

Here are some statistics that I put together between my existing battery pack and what I anticipate the new one will be (feel free to correct me on any glaring math errors that I likely have made):

Current Pack (12x AGM 62AH):12.8v ea = 153.6v pack
(Charge @ 13v = 160v)
12.87" x 6.69" x 8.78" ea
67.5 lbs ea = 810 lbs pack
(7x Front = 475.5 lbs / 5x Back = 337.5 lbs) 
$250 ea = $3,000 pack
(Shipped = $3,435.12)​Future Pack (60x LifePo4 CALB 180AH):3.2v ea = 196v pack
(Charge @ 3.6v = 216v)
7.17" x 2.80" x 11.14" ea
12.5 lbs ea = 750 lbs pack
(30x Front = 375 lbs / 30x Back = 375 lbs)
$243 ea = $14,580 pack
(Shipped = $15,451.04, including $330 lift gate + residential delivery charge)​In anticipation of the pending arrival of these new batteries, I have started figuring out where to put the boxes to contain them securely within the car.

My (admittedly ambitious) plan is to teach myself how to weld strong & light all aluminum battery boxes. The concept I am considering is building frames/racks out of 1.5" x 1.5" x 0.125" angle aluminum that will actually bear the weight of the pack.

Inside those frame rails will go some sort of very thin aluminum sheet metal (roof flashing or similar) that will be glued to the angle and will serve no structural purpose other than to provide a bit of protection and/or weatherproofing.

Within that will go a layer of solid foam insulation, possibly like the fire-retardant type used in residential construction, with the foil backing layer facing away from the batteries and/or terminals. In theory, such a material could provide both heat and electrical insulation as well as somewhat cushion the batteries from bumps and shocks along the road.

I spent a lot of time underneath the car, taking measurements as well as a careful look at exactly what parts of the underside are structurally important and which parts could be 'safely' removed. I then pulled out the rear seats, batteries, carpet, plywood, etc. to expose the floor area beneath and marked out the area that I would be cutting.








Trunk Floor & Spare Tire Well (From Rear)








Trunk Floor & Spare Tire Well (From Top)








Trunk Floor & Spare Tire Well (From Front)​
From underneath one can see where elements have taken a toll on this 23 year old vehicle, including where a chunk of the spare tire well had rusted out and a patch was welded in by a previous owner. The actual rear bumper metal had apparently rotted away at some point long ago, and all that is there is the plastic bumper cover... Amazingly, I have been stepping on that all this time when getting in and out of the trunk and didn't realize there wasn't anything supporting it until now. Must be some pretty hardy plastic bumper material they used back in the 80's.








Under Spare Tire Well (From Rear)








Under Spare Tire Well (From Below)








Under Spare Tire Well (From Right-Rear)​
I then supported the spare tire well with a cinder block, hauled out my trusty angle grinder with a metal-cutting blade, and set to the task of carefully cutting my way through the sheet metal flooring. It put out a tremendous shower of sparks, which I blocked from getting on any carpeting or other flammable materials by carefully positioning my heavy welding jacket directly in the path of the sparks. It took several hours, and my clothes and hair apparently stunk horribly of burnt metal afterwards, but no fires happened and eventually the entire section was supported only by the cinder-block underneath.

There is some sort of a metal support structure between the cross member and that front "tab" of the spare tire well that can be seen in the next photos. Since I couldn't really see behind it very well, and wasn't sure if it was important to the overall strength of the frame, I opted to cut around it instead.








Cut Trunk Floor (From Top)








Cut Trunk Floor (From Front)​
(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

After I removed the spare tire well, I was able to get a better look & feel for that tab and determined that it was not actually attached to the sheet metal, but rather was just giving it extra support (presumably for when heavy items were placed inside of the spare tire well). Since it was serving no structural purpose at this point, I removed that last bit of spare tire well. Here are some shots of the final result of the rear battery box hole in the sheet metal. The dimensions are 31.5" wide across the front (37" wide across the back) x 24" from front to back.








Missing Trunk Floor (From Rear)








Missing Trunk Floor (From Top)








Missing Trunk Floor (From Front)​
From underneath, without that spare tire well in the way, we can now clearly see the wacky asymmetrical suspension cross members, the 2/0 AWG Welding cable I have running from the back battery pack to the front, and the PEX tubing enshrouded AC power cable running up to the outlet where the gas cap used to be.








Under Missing Trunk Floor (From Rear)








Under Missing Trunk Floor (From Right-Rear)​
As I was done with cutting for now and waiting on various welding supplies, I put the 3/4" plywood back in the trunk to cover the hole and tossed the carpet back on it. In this way, the trunk is still perfectly usable for hauling stuff around, while keeping the majority of the weather/road debris/critters from getting in, and somewhat reducing the amount of road noise coming through the big gaping hole in the back of the car.








Plywood Trunk Floor (From Left-Rear)








Plywood Trunk Floor (From Rear)​
I wanted to be able to easily access and continue being able to work on the rear battery box, but still wanted to be able to drive the car in the meantime. Since the back seat was already out of the car, that seemed like an ideal place to put the rear batteries, temporarily. I had previously moved two of the front batteries to the back, so there were 7 in total. I was able to fit 6 across on a small piece of plywood, with one stacked up on top, all securely strapped down to same bolts that typically hold in the rear seats.








7x Batteries In Back Seat Location








7x Batteries In Back Seat Location​
The car handled exceptionally well with that extra 135 lbs moved from the extreme front of the engine compartment, and 337 lbs of the rear pack moved from on top of the rear axle to the back seat area in front of it. Perhaps there is something to be said for why mid-engine placement is so popular in all those exotic sports cars, eh?

(To be continued...)


----------



## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

Since temporarily moving the batteries to the back seat area worked out so well, I decided to push my luck and moved the final 5 (337 lbs worth) of batteries from the front pack to the back seat area. The primary goal in doing so is to free up all that space in the engine compartment so I can experiment with trying to find room for 30x LiFePO4 batteries in there, somehow, while still being able to drive the car on a daily basis.

Here are all 12 (810 lbs worth) of batteries crammed in the back seat area of the car...








12x Batteries In Back Seat Location (From Side)








12x Batteries In Back Seat Location (From Top)








12x Batteries In Back Seat Location (From Rear)​
The rear suspension is NOT terribly happy about this particular state of affairs, but surprisingly the car still drives reasonably well (even on the highway at 75+ mph). Potholes and extra rough roads are a bit scary though as one can hear the shocks "bottoming out" now and again... Thankfully, it's only a temporary setup and the new batteries will be lighter and return to a more-or-less 50/50 weight distribution, so all will be back to normal handling & ground clearance again.








Low Rider​
On a rather chilly day in early spring, while I had the EV in the garage up on ramps taking various measurements for potential battery box locations underneath, I had the Electric Heater Element and the fan blower on, with the charger plugged in and running for about an hour straight. The controller and all other EV components were powered off during this time.

I finished my measurements, flipped on the controller, backed the car down off the ramps, and flipped everything else off, except the fan blower. I generally leave that on for a little bit after powering off the heater, just to allow it to cool off completely (which is not really necessary, but gives me peace-of-mind).

So I flipped off the fan blower and at that precise moment a great volume of smoke started billowing out from under the hood! I shut the ignition switch off immediately (which was just powering the dash at that point anyway), and popped the hood open...

The smoke appeared to be coming out of my Manzanita PFC-40M charger, since the car was still plugged into the wall and its cooling fans were running and I was worried that I had somehow killed that very expensive piece of equipment. I powered the charger off then hit the "big red button" (battery pack kill switch), and lastly unplugged the charger from the wall.

After letting the smoke clear, I began investigating where it could possibly have been coming from:1.) Checked all of the high voltage connections, they were all secure.
2.) Pulled the front batteries and the charger, visually inspected, there looked fine.
3.) Carefully inspected all of the low-voltage wiring in the entire engine bay, thinking that perhaps one of them got pinched somewhere and burnt through its insulation... Nope, all were fully protected by the wire looms and were intact.
4.) Re-installed the front batteries and the charger, all voltages checked out.
5.) Controller checked out, even the heater, fan blower, dash, etc worked just fine.
6.) Drove the car to the end of the driveway and back, worked great.
7.) Noted that the DC-To-DC converter was not charging the accessory battery, and upon closer inspection, it -smelled- terrible... Eureka!​Apparently the DC-To-DC converter couldn't handle the sustained amp draw of the fan blower on "high" for about an hour while the car was stationary (no air movement), so it overheated and smoked itself. Since the active cooling fan of the charger was still running, it sucked the smoke through the charger and blew it out the other side. I would much rather lose a $150 part than a $3,100 one, so was rather happy with this discovery.








HWZ DC-To-DC Converter








HWZ DC-To-DC Converter (Smoked)​
Now that I was in the market for a new DC-To-DC converter, I started doing some research into one that would be most appropriate for my needs. My current battery pack is ~153v (160v while charging) and future pack will be ~196v pack (216v while charging), so I really wanted a DC-To-DC converter that could handle both ranges effectively and hopefully be more robust than the NewKellyController HWZ one I was using before.

In the April 11th episode of EVTV when Mark Weisheimer brought on the Vicor MegaPAC, I was intrigued as this seemed like it might be the perfect solution to my recent dilemma, and bought a couple used MegaPAC units off of eBay shortly thereafter. Each one came with a number of different output modules, with three 5v/40a ones as well as two 15v 10a ones that seemed like they may be appropriate for running the low voltage systems in my EV.

I did not originally understand (and it wasn't well documented on the eBay listings) that some of these modules were "Drivers" and some are "Boosters". Essentially a booster module is useless without an equivalent driver module, and must be wired in parallel with one in order to get the benefit of higher amperage capacity. Wiring driver modules together in parallel is "should not" be done, according to the Vicor MegaPAC Manual I downloaded.

Therefore, in theory, you could setup the unit for a 15v/80a output if you had one 15v/10a driver with seven 15v/10a booster modules all wired in parallel. Alternatively, you could use three 5v/40a drivers with three 5v/40a boosters wired together in parallel (5v/80a each), and then wiring those together in series to achieve the 15v/80a total output. Based on the modules I happened to get with my used units (plus an extra 5v/40a driver from eBay), I ended up going with the latter option.








Vicor 15V x 80A MegaPAC​
During various testing in my car, I noted that the accessory battery would slowly discharge itself through the MegaPAC when the converter was off (input side unplugged from the main battery pack). Also, I was originally concerned that 15v might be a bit too much to run the low voltage systems in the car, and figured it would be a good idea to step it down to closer to the ~13.5v output that the old DC-To-DC converter produced. To that end, I purchased a Vishay 150a rated diode, which theoretically would drop the voltage by ~1v as well as prevent reverse current flow when the converter was powered off.








Vishay 150A Diode​
I hooked the diode up between the negative side of the MegaPAC and the vehicle ground and found that it did indeed perform the function it was designed for. However, it got hot... really hot, measured at upwards of 200º F before I chickened out and pulled the plug. So I figured a heat sink of some sort was in order, and happened to have an old 386 CPU heat sink assembly on hand. With the kind assistance of some folks at the machine shop where I work, they were able to drill out an appropriate sized hole to securely mount the diode within it.








Vishay Diode With CPU Heat Sink​
For a size comparison, here is the smoked Original DC-To-DC convertor next to the MegaPAC plus heat sink mounted diode solution.








Old & New DC-To-DC Solutions​
(To be continued...)


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

(Continued...)

I mounted one of the Vicor MegaPAC units in the car along with the diode for testing. Note that I was using four of the 15v/10a driver modules wired in Parallel at this point, just to see if it would work. Although I have no way of accurately measuring low voltage DC amperage at this point, I put it through its paces with everything on that I could think of being turned on simultaneously (power steering pump cranking hard on the wheel sitting still, fan blower on high, high beams, wipers, interior lighting, radio, etc.) and it was clearly putting out more than the old converter, although the wipers would "slow" a bit with all of that going on and the high-beams would dim a bit.








Installed Vicor 15V x 40A MegaPAC With Diode​
What I found most concerning, however, was that the diode, even with the heat sink still got quite hot, topping out at approximately 230º F before it leveled off. Granted, this diode has a maximum operating temperature rating of 392º F, but I was still concerned with it bubbling nearby paint, melting wire insulation, or even starting a fire under the right circumstances. Thus, I ended up removing the diode from the equation entirely.

Note: I did experiment with using the trim settings on the Vicor modules to bring the voltage down to about 13.8v, but after extensive testing, everything in the car seems to work well, actually 'better' in fact, at the full 15v. Therefore, I decided to leave the additional parts and complexity of the resistors out of it and keep things as simple as possible.

My solution to the problem involves a pair of Kilovac Contactors wired up to a toggle switch inside the cabin instead. With one contactor on the high voltage battery pack side, this allows me to easily power on/off the entire Vicor MegaPAC unit (with its rather loud high RPM, cooling fan) at any time. With the other contactor on the low voltage side, I can rest assured that zero current is flowing out of the accessory battery through the MegaPAC when the DC-To-DC converter is not powered up.

Although it was a rather tight fit, I was able to secure both contactors within the same type of weather-resistant exterior electrical outlet cover box that I used on the "big red button". It took a while to get everything setup in there, but I am reasonably pleased with the results.

Here are a few shots of the current engine bay, with the final Vicor MegaPAC 15v/80a configuration, including the fully installed dual contactor solution, and all of the front batteries removed.








Current Engine Bay (From Front)








Current Engine Bay (From Top)








Final Vicor 15V x 80A MegaPAC Installation​
On a somewhat related note, as of June 2, 2011, the CALB LiFePO4 180 amp hour batteries I had ordered have finally arrived for my new battery pack! Well, most of them anyway, as 56 out of the 60 actually managed to get here with the last 4 apparently falling into the UPS Black Hole and disappearing from our universe. Apparently these batteries are shipped 14 to a crate, so the "oddball" 4 extras must have been in a different box that did not end up sticking with the pallet with the rest of them and is MIA. I have been in touch with the people I ordered them from (Manzanita Micro) and my sales rep there has been working with the CALB distribution center in California to get 4 replacement units sent my way. Hopefully the missing batteries will be found by UPS at some point, so that nobody is stuck with $1,000 worth of missing product.

There was also an issue where the residential delivery service & lift-gate I had requested did not make it through to the final UPS shipping order. Thus, a tractor trailer pulled up in front of my house, so we ended up manually lifting the 200 lb crates down from the 5 foot high truck bed. Thank goodness I happened to have a strong friend here to help me; otherwise it could have been a long/messy process of unpacking every battery to get them off the truck one at a time. The folks at Manzanita assure me that I will be refunded for the missing lift-gate service as well, and that is very much appreciated. 








56 Of 60 CALB 180 AHA Cells Arrive​
As progress continues on the battery boxes, new pack installation, and eventually movement of all the EV components into a much nicer, rust free, Dodge Daytona body in the relatively near future, I will continue trying to keep this post updated.

Take care,

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good morning,

I took a stab at welding some aluminum with my shiny new MillerMatic Passport Plus MIG welder (with SpoolMate 100 spool gun attachment). To be honest, it did not go very well. I was unable to get any sort of "weld pool" to form, despite cleaning it carefully with a stainless steel brush right beforehand, running the welder at 220 volts, using a high flow rate on the 100% Argon gas, and pre-warming the metal.

Basically what kept happening was that wire feeding out of the spool gun seemed to be coming out far too fast, even with the 'wire speed' setting on the welder set as low as possible. When the wire reached the arc it would immediately turn into small molten globs, resembling bee-bee gun pellets, which then piled up on the work-piece and made a nice mess of things without actually accomplishing anything useful.

I mangled numerous welding tips, wasted a bunch of gas, fought with the insta-tangle wire spool in the gun, and got some nice radiation burns on my legs. (Note to self: Shorts = Not a brilliant idea when sitting 2 feet in front of a welding arc, even if it's not actually hot enough to melt the work piece.) At this point, I am putting the welding idea on hold for now and will try again another time.

The goal is to create various sized boxes that can fully enclose all 60 of the CALB 180 AHA batteries for my new pack, protecting them from road debris and the elements, as well as to insulate them as much as possible in an effort to use the heat they generate internally to keep them even a little warmer than ambient. I am not interested in complex heating (or cooling) systems for the battery boxes as I really like to keep things as simple as possible. However, I am hoping that when it's 10 below zero here in the heart of the winter, that the batteries will perform better if they are running a bit warmer.

As welding them myself is out (for now) and I don't know of a local fabrication place that can just whip up some for me, I have opted to "fall back on what I already know" and have started constructing them using the nuts & bolts method, similar to what I used previously on my "giant Erector set" steel racks.

To that end I purchased a bunch of aluminum in 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" angle, 1 1/2" x 1/8" flat bar, and 1/16" sheets. The basic construction of the boxes is pretty straight-forward, essentially consisting of an all angle aluminum rack covered by the sheet metal, and is reinforced in key locations by the flat bar. Everything is held together very strongly by stainless steel 5/16" bolts, regular washers, lock washers, and nuts.

Upon the advice from a buddy at work, I purchased a hand-held rivet gun and a bunch of 3/16" x 1/4" aluminum rivets. These ended up working out really well to secure the larger spans aluminum sheet metal between the bolts, prevents it from banging around, and makes the entire assembly significantly stronger and more rigid.

The entire process I am using to build these boxes is extremely time consuming and I am sure there are better ways to accomplish the same objective that might even result in lighter, stronger, or smaller boxes... However, for my first effort in creating actual boxes (as opposed to the open racks from the version 1.0 of this build), I am pretty happy with how they are coming out.

I started with the rear box, as I had already cut the floor of the rear hatch out and had a fairly good mental picture of exactly how the entire assembly was going to fit. I wasn't 100% sure of what type of insulation I would end up using, but knew that if I left myself between 1/2 and 1 1/2" of clearance between the batteries and the inner box wall, I should have enough room for "something" in there.

Here is what I came up with for my first attempt at a box: (The horizontal angle pieces mid-way down on each side are actually what supports the box when it's in the car as they end up straddling the underlying frame members that support the entire rear end of the car.)








Rear Battery Box (Top)​
The bottom of the box has extra aluminum flat bars securely bolted on each end and riveted throughout the center. The three horizontal flat bars provide additional support to the aluminum sheet and are located directly underneath the center of where each row of batteries will be located. The one additional front-to-back flat bar serves to further reinforce those extra supports. All of this adds additional weight, but considering that it needs to hold 375+ lbs worth of batteries, I wanted to err on the side of too much rather than too little.








Rear Battery Box (Bottom)​
The complete battery box just barely fits within the hole I had previously cut in the floor of the rear hatch area. Due to the nature of how interior of the car happens to be shaped, it was not possible insert the box in from the top. Instead, the only way to get it into the car was to remove the side supporting pieces, lift the box up through the floor from underneath, re-install those side supports, and then bolt them to the frame.

In theory this sounds simple enough, but in practice there were a great many "colorful metaphors" flying about, particularly when the bolts (which would have been completely unnecessary, if the welding plan had worked) end up catching on -everything- as you are trying to man-handle the large, awkward box into position. In the end I "won" the battle and the box is now mounted securely within the car. 








Installed Rear Battery Box (From Top)​
The new battery box can now be seen protruding a few inches below the rear bumper. This distance is very close to the same as the original spare tire well. I tested it out by driving up some really sharply angled driveways. Even with 810+ lbs of the original AGM Lead Acid batteries still stacked up in the back seat area, there was a good inch or so clearance between the new battery box and the ground.

When those AGM batteries are removed and the 30 new LiFePo4 cells have been installed, it will drop the overall weight in the back of the car by about 435 lbs. Therefore, the ground clearance should even be substantially better than it is right now (even with the battery weight being moved to behind the rear axle, rather than in front of it).








Installed Rear Battery Box (From Rear)​
Since the car is still technically drivable with its AGM pack, I was able to easily back the car up onto the ramps and get a picture of the battery box from below. It's a bit hard to make out, particularly in the tiny pictures we are allowed to post in this forum, but you can kind of see that the box is higher than the axle and suspension elements (again, even with 810 lbs of weight in the back).








Installed Rear Battery Box (From Underneath)​
I lined the bottom as well as both left and right sides of the box with 1 1/2" thick hard foam, then ended up using 1/2" thick foam for the front and back. I then installed the 14 batteries from the first crate I happened to open. It is a very tight fit, with the foam compressing far less than I was expecting, to the point where I ended up having to use various blocks of wood, screw-drivers, and gentle tapping (through the blocks of wood) with a hammer to get the batteries wedged in there. It is quite likely that once the full weight of all 30 of the batteries have been installed that they will further compress the foam on the sides during fast cornering, brisk acceleration, and hard braking. This is something I plan to keep an eye on, since I don't want the batteries "slopping about", and may have to come up with a better long-term plan.








First 14 LiFePo4 Cells Installed (From Top)​
At the moment, both the original 810 lbs of AGM's are still running the car. Now that roughly 175 lbs have been also installed in the rear box, I am somewhat fearful that so much weight back there may break the car in half... Therefore, I won't be driving it any more than just up & down the ramps in the garage until those AGM's are fully removed and all 60 LiFePo4 cells have been installed, wired up, and charged.








First 14 LiFePo4 Cells Installed (From Rear)​
As of July 4th I am still waiting on the 4 missing batteries from the original shipment. According to Manzanita Micro, the CALB distributor claimed they shipped the cells out on June 20th or 21st. This shipment will likely be coming via standard UPS ground as the 4 cells should only weigh about 50 lbs, but were once again unable to provide an actual tracking number...

As it's now been two full weeks since that time and I still don't even have a tracking number, I am inclined to believe that perhaps, just maybe, the batteries once again may not actually have shipped (even though the distributor claimed they did). Time will tell... and I am just trying to remain as patient and understanding as possible in the meantime.

More battery box fabrication fun coming soon, stay tuned!

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon,

Apparently the 4 missing CALB cells, which (according to the CALB distributor) shipped out on the June 20th or 21st, "actually" have finally shipped from Ontario, California as of July 5th. The kind folks at Manzantia Micro were finally given an actual tracking number and everything, so I now know roughly when to expect them and can plan accordingly. Yay!

Work is still progressing on building the front battery boxes for the new 60x CALB 180 AHA LiFePo4 Cells and the details of exactly how to secure said boxes within the awkward free spaces within the engine compartment are yet to be fleshed out. However, since I now have figured out somewhat of a manufacturing process, I went through and tried to take pictures of each step along the way as I constructed the second box.

The first step was to measure the engine compartment and figure out how the heck I was going to physically cram 30 of these batteries in there, including enough room for the boxes to hold them, and for those boxes to be large enough to also have a minimum of 1/2" of solid foam insulation all 6 sides (both to cushion the batteries somewhat and provide a bit of heat retention during the cold winter months).

It became apparent during this measuring step that nearly all of the EV components in the engine compartment were going to have to be relocated somewhere else in order to make enough room for the battery boxes. So, I pulled out the charger, controller, and all of the old battery racks, leaving essentially just the motor and DC-To-DC Converter assembly where they used to be. The Power Steering pump assembly also needs to be relocated, but as the high pressure lines require special tools (that I don't have) I am going to do my best to reposition it securely, without disconnecting them.

Here is what the engine bay looks like at the moment...








Gutted Engine Bay (From Front)








Gutted Engine Bay (From Right)








Gutted Engine Bay (From Left)
​Although rather close in all dimensions, the plan I came up with is to build 3 separate modular boxes, that will hold 8, 10, and 12 batteries respectively in strategic locations squeezed in where possible in the highly irregular shaped areas of the engine bay.

If my measurements are correct, then the first box should be able to hold 8 batteries and will fit between the firewall, motor/transmission, the Air Conditioning Bulkhead, and the Power Brake Booster. It will be a relatively tight squeeze as it will have to "stand off" from the firewall a bit to avoid touching the brake lines/various other wiring, while at the same time avoiding coming into any contact with the Motor/Transmission as those tend to bounce around a little by virtue of the rubber engine mounts.

One of the things that I realized during this process was that it would be impossible to construct the front battery boxes in exactly the same was as I had made the rear one... On the rear box, the top angle supports in the front & back overlap the batteries slightly, meaning that you cannot drop batteries in straight-down from above. This wasn't a problem in the rear box, due to it being 3 rows of batteries deep, as you can simply fill it from the center outwards until you are left with only the middle/easily accessible row remaining.

With the front battery boxes, being only one row deep, I don't have that luxury. Therefore, if I constructed the front boxes the same, they would have an exterior dimension of roughly 10 3/4" deep (about 7" for the batteries plus another 3 3/4" for angle, bolts, etc.). Since I only have about 9" maximum depth to provide appropriate clearances all around, this just wasn't going to fly.

Upon hashing over the problem with a friend of mine, it occurred to me that if I used pieces of flat stock (rather than angle), for the top front and top rear support members, that the box wouldn't lose much in the way of structural rigidity, yet would allow the batteries to slide easily into the finished box.

Now that I had the various dimensions mostly worked out, the second step was to actually cut all of the structural pieces of the aluminum to the correct lengths. I laid out the batteries to get a better visual reference and to be able to measure the actual dimensions for the whole the mini-pack as a unit. I then carefully cut the pieces using my trusty table saw and metal cutting blade.








Cut Angle & Flat Bar Aluminum​
Just to double-check that I was on the right track, I just kind of balanced each of the cut pieces together beside the batteries. Note that although the top front/rear flat stock pieces are horizontal just lying there, that they will be mounted vertically when assembled.








Test Sizing (Front)








Test Sizing (Side)​
The next step was to drill the holes and securely bolt the structural frame of the box together. One of the things I learned upon building the first box was that I ended up drilling the bolt holes so they lined up exactly in the center of the outside corner of the angle pieces... The net result of this was that all of the bolts hit into each other on the inside when trying to put the box together, so it quickly became a nightmare where I had to sometimes take out two bolts just to get the last one in "in the right order".

On my second box, armed with this vital bit of knowledge, I precisely measured from the -inside- of each corner, rather than from the outside. This has the net effect that all of the bolts end up not being lined up dead-center when looking at the outside of the box, but none of them came into contact with each other on the inside, and everything went together MUCH more smoothly.

Here is the fully assembled frame next to the batteries. Note that you can see how the vertically mounted flat stock top front/rear will allow for the batteries to be dropped in smoothly from the top.








Assembled Frame​
The next step was to cut the 1/16" aluminum sheet metal in the correct sizes to fill in the gaps between each of the frame members. Each piece was cut approximately 1/8" shorter than the interior dimensions of the angle in order to account for them to lie flat, regardless of the tapered interior corners on all the angle pieces. I also angled the corners of the sheet metal as well for the same reason.








Cut Aluminum Sheets​
The final assembly step is to install the aluminum sheet metal on each of the four sides and the bottom of the box. This is a bit complicated as the bolts, washers, lock washers, and nuts that hold the structural pieces together must be removed and holes must be drilled through the sheet metal at precisely the same spot as the existing bolt holes. In order to keep everything together, I only removed the bolts from one side at a time, clamped the sheet metal in place (whenever possible), drilled and then re-assembled that side.

The whole process is very time consuming, but since the sheet metal is then securely sandwiched between the washes and bolts in each corner, this helps hold everything together and probably re-enforces the structural members a bit as well. I then take it one step further and liberally rivet the sheet metal pieces to the frame. This causes the entire assembly to become extremely rigid and the end result is quite sturdy. 








Finished Box (Top)








Finished Box (Angle)​
I am rather pleased with how the box came out. Next up is mounting the box in the engine compartment, stuffing in the foam, inserting the batteries, wiring everything together, and putting on the final touches like a lid of some sort, etc.

More progress and updates coming soon...

Jason


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## Xoryn (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 1988 Dodge Daytona EV Build Thread*

Good afternoon,

As of June 30th, I have signed up for the EVTV Electric Vehicle Converters Convention in September, and will be bringing my EV!

According to MapQuest, it is roughly 1,000 miles from Cortland, New York to Cape Girardeau, Missouri. The rough estimate I came up with for shipping the vehicle via a service like Dependable Auto Shippers (DAS), including a flight out there and back myself, looks to be approximately $2,500 for the trip.

Renting a truck/trailer and driving would take 4-6 days of travel time (2-3 each way), and on the surface would appear to be a less expensive option. However, upon adding up the rental fees, gas money (figuring roughly 10 mpg while hauling a car & trailer *shudders*), 2-4 nights of additional hotel room costs, several extra days worth of food, plus figuring in having to take those extra days off from work... The net cost is really about the same, either way.

Naturally it would have been much less expensive to just go to the convention without hauling my EV along for the trip, but for the chance to race it around the track, participate in group rides on the scenic wine country back roads, join in on the parade, the car show, and other such events... It seems to me like that experience will be worth every penny.

This brings me to a rather startling realization: The 1988 Dodge Daytona rust bucket that happens to currently contain all of my EV parts is not, nor ever has been, a "show worthy" vehicle...

It has always been my intention to use this vehicle as a temporary test bench in which to assemble and try out various EV components. However, once all of the bugs/issues had been resolved, all of the parts would then be transferred over to one of the rust-free Dodge Daytona’s I have accumulated which would then be better suited for being put on public display.

For the past several months I have been wrestling with the choice of which particular 80's era Dodge Daytona donor would become my next EV project car. I have both a Black & Gold 1986 Turbo-Z as well as a Red 1987 Shelby-Z that are both available as potential candidates.

The Black & Gold '86 is more iconic of the time period, but presently has an automatic gearbox, is in desperate need of re-painting, needs to be reupholstered, and has a host of other issues. The Red '87 is more aerodynamic, only requires relatively minor touch-up painting, and has the advantage of already having a manual transaxle, shifter, and clutch.








'88 EV With Flanking '87 & '86 ICE Possible Donors








'87 ICE, '88 EV, & '86 ICE Dodge Daytonas​
On July 16th, I finally settled on the Red 1987 Dodge Daytona Shelby-Z to become my second Daytona EV project car, and started pulling out ICE components. This will be the one I’ll be bringing along for the ride at EVCCON in September. Here are a few random shots of this donor vehicle that I took on a nice sunny day a couple of months ago.








1987 Daytona Donor (Left)








1987 Daytona Donor (Front-Left)








1987 Daytona Donor (Front)








1987 Daytona Donor (Front-Right)








1987 Daytona Donor (Right-Rear)








1987 Daytona Donor (Rear Window)​
Lastly, here is what the original 2.2L 4-Cylinder Turbo II engine compartment looked like.








1987 Daytona Donor (Engine Bay)








1987 Daytona Donor (Engine Close-up)​
It is going to take a minor miracle to pull off this conversion in time for EVCCON as I am essentially building it from scratch all over again. However, I will be able to pull most of the major components over from the existing EV and am shelling out the big bucks to get it shipped all the way to Missouri, so am highly motivated to make this happen. It -will- be ready, even if I have to learn to live without that pesky sleep thing for the next couple of months. *chuckles*

Just to make things even more difficult/challenging this time around, I am upgrading the original design to now include all 60 of the CALB LiFePO4 180 AH cells in insulated aluminum battery boxes, adding a new EV Display unit, and am even going to try to incorporate the stock belt driven P/S pump & A/C Compressor.

In theory, the belt driven components will be powered by the tail shaft of the Netgain WarP 9 motor, much like Mike from EV-Propulsion has done on several of his builds. My goal is to eliminate the extremely noisy Toyota MR2 style electric P/S pump that I used in the first EV project and also to retain the original stock air conditioning setup, if possible.

As a side-effect of the new front battery boxes, it may also become necessary to relocate most of the major EV components like the controller, charger, and DC-to-DC converter to somewhere other than the engine compartment. Time will tell and we'll just have to wait and see how the puzzle all fits together this time around, making adjustments accordingly.

I have a crazy idea in the back of my mind to try and utilize the area underneath the rear seat, where the gas tank used to be, to try and build an insulated box of sorts to house the charger and DC-to-DC converter. Such a box would need to have sufficient airflow for these items to be cooled properly while at the same time, somehow, muffling the noise they make as much as possible. In particular, the cooling fan inside the Vicor MegaPAC unit is extremely loud and ends up being almost as annoying as the electric P/S pump in an otherwise nearly silent vehicle. The fan noise is most noticeable when the car is "idling" at a traffic light.

As always, I'll keep everyone posted on my progress as this new build takes shape, and will likely be making a new (more accurately named) thread for documenting this newish project.

Thank you for your time reading my ongoing ramblings, take care!

Jason


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Sooo, I'm pretty sure I saw your red Daytona in a photo from the weekend at EVCCON! How about an update on the build?


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## Nathan219 (May 18, 2010)

Awesome build yours was only the fourth EV I have had the pleasure to ride in, very nicely done. We need more Vehicles like yours on the road if to educate the public. I would make it a goal to give at least one person a day the EV Grin just grab people start with your local coffee shop because you know they have nothing to do but talk.


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## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

Why not put the battiers in front too . Help get a 50/50 split on the weight . Or the back seat at least half . Great job on the car .


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