# Next Controller Selection



## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

I think the Rineharts can.. Their website is shocking though


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Stiive said:


> I think the Rineharts can.. Their website is shocking though


Rineharts are PMAC/Induction motor controllers, not PM DC.

He said he's already running a 7245, which leads us to believe he's using a PM DC motor, but it won't do regen with the 7245.

Completely wrong type of motor to use with a Rinehart.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Do you mean a brushed PM series DC? Not BLDC?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

No Stiive, I mean what I said.

PMAC/BLDC are competely different animals from DC machines. PMAC/BLDC both use permanent magnets, this much is true. That's only half the story. The rest we get from the fact that he's already using this motor with a 7245 controller, which is a DC Series wound OR PM DC motor controller. DC in, DC out. DC motors commutate mechanically.

Also, you can't have Brushed PM series DC, it's one or the other. PM has stator magnets, brushes and rotor coils. A series motor has rotor and stator coils with brushes. 

PMAC/BLDC and Induction motors require external commutation via a controller/inverter or some other electrical commutation device. DC in, AC out.


Since he said the motor is PM and he said he's using a DC controller, the motor is PM DC. So he gave us all we need, you just don't have any idea what he's working with. He's using PM DC, hence needs a PM DC motor controller that supports regen, not a three phase AC controller/inverter.


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation... Just had never heard of a brushed PM motor before, I guess they're not used so much... 
But i'm actually not into the DIY scene, more just interested in induction motor control. I guess i knew it wasnt 'series' I since either the stator or rotor had PM, but rather was likening it to the series DC motors I have seen. Brushed is the main keyword here.

Why not just go BLDC and do away with the burshes if your paying for magnet material anyway? If you don't mind me hijacking your thread?


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

I assume you are using a brushed DC motor with magnets like AGNI?



eRev said:


> So, now looking a Kelly HPM w/ regen, specifically model HPM72601. I tried to search for info on this site with little results - seems like it is hit-n-miss regarding reliability and customer support.


Look at
http://kellycontroller.com/High-Power-Programmable-Controller.php and
http://kellycontroller.com/HPMhelp.php.
Here you see that it can be configured to torque control.



eRev said:


> What other manufacturers are out there that can provide a controller for PM motor w/ regen? If I take the plunge w/ Kelly will I be able to configure the mode of operation to be torque control?


If so a look at Sigmadrive controllers but be careful with choosing the right one for brushed DC-Motor with magnet , here is an example with AGNI
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_kits_agni_sigma72.php


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Stiive said:


> Just had never heard of a brushed PM motor before, I guess they're not used so much...


Stiive,

Brushed PM motors are extremely common in fractional and sub-fractional hp. Likely the most common worldwide in battery powered toys, hand tools, etc. Also widely used for automotive accessory drives like wipers, windows, blowers and even some engine cranking. Less common above one hp, but out there, such as Agni, Perm, Mars, Honeywell, and a few others.

eRev,

You might look at Curtis or Navitas.

Regards,

major


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## Stiive (Nov 22, 2008)

major said:


> Stiive,
> 
> Brushed PM motors are extremely common in fractional and sub-fractional hp. Likely the most common worldwide in battery powered toys, hand tools, etc.


Now that I think about it, you're right... My slots cars were brushed motors that I remember were also magnetic and used to attract all sorts of metal pieces of crap/swarf into the motor and seized up until I cleaned them. Can only imagine the ramifications of this problem in a real vehicle


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## eRev (Jan 10, 2009)

How does one contact the folks at electricmotorsports.com? Voice preferred as my need to decide is immediate.

I've looked at the Sigma drive(s) before and I like them 'cept for the dedicated expensive programming tools - I assume it is current (torque) control when someone refers to traction duty? It isn't explicit in the documents but then again I'm glazing this stuff way too fast.

The Kelly is a better fit and seems easier to deploy w/ existing setup. The Sigma drive will likely be going strong in five years particularly if water cooled which is the caveat to making it fit - keep it flat to maintain tight coupling to motor in terms of hookup conductors.

I need more confidence in Kelly before I take that plunge but little time to sift the heaps of info on this forum. Sigma wins pending a slightly better understanding of what I'm really getting for my hard-earned coin.

Thanks a bunch for the help and please chime-in w/ opinion to persuade between Kelly and Sigma - this is a tough one for me to decide.


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## eRev (Jan 10, 2009)

Talked to Justin at electricmotorsports.com - he had all the right answers regarding the Sigma drive e.g. IP ratings beat Kelly, yes, torque mode, float voltage tolerance fits application and best of all I can rent the programming device to tweak run parameters. Nuff said - I'm done and this list got me there so thanks again.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

eRev said:


> Talked to Justin at electricmotorsports.com - he had all the right answers regarding the Sigma drive e.g. IP ratings beat Kelly, yes, torque mode, float voltage tolerance fits application and best of all I can rent the programming device to tweak run parameters. Nuff said - I'm done and this list got me there so thanks again.


Well I think you have made the decision.
Kelly has clearly the better software, Sigmadrive the better hardware it seems. I thought Sigmadrive also had a configuration software for PC but if you can rent the programming tool and it is ok for your needs then it is perfect.
Other advantage of the Sigmadrive is the master/slave modul in case you need to have two motors/contollers in your vehicle.


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## eRev (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks gunnarhs for the vendor lead - Curtis, Nativas were also looked at but like most drive manufacturers they focus on the brushless market so the choices today are slim.

I hope to deploy in simple form initially but then hack into the CAN interface on the Sigmadrive for real-time monitoring purposes - hopefully one can find reference documents that speak to protocal used, etc - me thinks some industry standard is used - gotta get it rolling first, so yeah selection criteria factors future paths for improvement.

Thanks again to the list for the guidance and good discussion.


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## Electric Forklift Guy (Dec 13, 2012)

eRev said:


> Currently, I'm running an Altrax 7245 - works great 'cept for minor drivability issues and I need to consider regen to reduce the burden on the mechanical brakes.
> 
> I wanted a Sevcon PowerPak but contrary to published data they only support SEM and not PM - them bastards.
> 
> ...



If your "driveability" issue is the motor surging when at high speed , changing the controller wont fix it.


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## eRev (Jan 10, 2009)

Electric Forklift Guy said:


> If your "driveability" issue is the motor surging when at high speed , changing the controller wont fix it.


No - it is speed control hunt but I can appreciate what you are saying.

Dang - I'm sure disappointed in the supplier network this DIY conversion industry represents - one gets promises and the execution falls way too short - I better stop my whining as there is a percieved dependancy at play and I'm on edge to pulling the plug and finding a different hobby - worse bunch of business folks next to FFLs...wide stroke brush intended or maybe just one not sure but I feel better now.


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