# Turning an Air-Cooled VW into a Limited Range, Low Speed EV Commuter



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

For the distances you need and to be reliable for those distances in summer and winter you will need lithium batteries. You will not do what you want without them even if your only looking at minimal speeds. If you are going to do that build one that WILL do the freeway because you WILL want to after you build one. Guaranteed. Now that does not mean you need to do that most of the time. But for distances you need a good pack of Lithium Cells. That will be pricey. It is easy to convert one but you will want a decent condition vehicle to start with before you do a conversion. You might want to consider a decent 9" motor, a good battery pack, a good controller. There will be some small items but those are the main things. You will also need a charger. Don't build a Golf Cart. Build a Car you can rely upon daily. With gas going up you will be doing well to build a full blown commuter and freeway flyer with a decent range. Many of us around here have built some nice VW's. I am working on a 61 VW Roadster right now. 

Pete


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

I agree with Pete, you will need lithiums. I would suggest a budget of at least $10k. You can probably do it for less than that if you make a small Lithium pack and scrounge for motor, controller, charger, DC-DC and adaptor.

Good luck!


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree with the previous comments with one exception. If you decide on a range of 50 miles and the nearest freeway or Interstate is 25 miles away, then you will probably not need to worry about designing your car for freeway speeds. 

We often bring our personal circumstances to bear on the advice we give to others when in fact the circumstances of each of us is entirely different. Good luck with your build and make the care work for you.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

If you use a VW as a donor, (at 45mph as a maximum speed) It will be a one gear car if you have a flexable RPM motor like the AC50. If you use a 9" DC it will probably require two gears (1st and 2nd, a shift every stop).

My 130AH pack will do a 40 mile round trip commute (in a 2,000-2,500Lb car) with monotonous regularity, with a few miles extra for a side errand.

NOTE: these prices were pulled from two advertisers sites.

AC50/controller=$4,700
Netgain 9"/ Altrax=$1,700
Warp 9/Sol Jr.=$4,900
36/130AH pack=$6,200
Plus adapter plate and hub=$1,500
Elcon Charger=$900

and small things-$1,000 (relays-disconnect-fuse-cabling-ETC)

Going Netgain 9 + Altrax route= about $11,300 (and a shift)
Going the AC50 + 1238R route= about $14,300
Going the Warp 9/Sol Jr route= about $14,500

(rough estimates, can go down depending on your luck and scrounging ability)

Miz


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

20-50 miles isn't what most of us would consider limited range. More like, above average. You don't need 1st gear in a VW. You could go straight to a custom diff if you really only need 45, or keep the trans and get highway speeds when you want em.

You'll need your $5 just for lithium, so I'd recommend the following to save in other areas:
Look for old but good forklift motors that can be had on the cheap. Some people have made great cars with a $1-300 motor.
If you're good at electronics, check out Open ReVolt and look into building your own motor controller ($600) and charger.

As for kit cars, here's a '74 Ghia. You can build anything you want, but it'll cost more than a straight conversion.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Zig,
Looks like an AZTEC VW Kit. Maybe on a 74 Ghia Pan. 


AMPSTER
I still think a person should build for the freeway. No that you'd take it on the freeway but for the sheer pleasure of blasting around. It is correct that the person may never see the freeway but I can assure you that I have needed the extra power and quickness of the car to get OUT OF THE WAY of some DOLT that has no clue how to drive. The power comes in handy at times. And you don't have to drive it quick or fast but its there when you need it to perform for you. If you drive it right it will be much better than an underpowered slug that will max out at like 45 mph. Build like you want to get there or that you can get there yesterday. Enjoy it today. 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Zig,
> Looks like an AZTEC VW Kit. Maybe on a 74 Ghia Pan.


Obviously.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Obviously.


To many, yes. 

To others that don't know squat about VW's, they might now consider it a GHIA and never question it. 

Nope, it's an AZTEC Kit. Pretty cool kit too. Hard to fine in decent condition. You usually need to dump in a bit for restoration but the cost is still respectable. I like the Kellson GT 40 as well. But for a guy as tall as I am they are pretty much out of the question for converting. That is why I like the Ghia and Bus. Plenty of Head Room.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Zig,
> Looks like an AZTEC VW Kit. Maybe on a 74 Ghia Pan.
> 
> 
> ...


That is a reasonable opinion and it is clearly your opinion. 

An example of another opinion is an acquaintance of mine who has a bug with an AC50 in it. He leaves it in second gear, and in fact he has removed the shift lever and disconnected the shift rod from the transmission because he doesn't like the noise. The torgue on that car is more than enough to get out of the way of some DOLT but if I remember the gear ratios he would be doing 6500rpm if he wanted to go 65mph in second gear. He has the capability but has made the decision essentially to have a low speed car. He is happy with his choice.


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## RodneyW (Oct 11, 2012)

Sorry to be late getting back to the thread. I was out watching the greatest come back in post season baseball history. Unfortunately, I was on the wrong side of the outcome. 

This is a useful conversation for a neophyte. Let me see if I can reduce it a bit.

So a 72 volt DC Motor and a half dozen 12 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries = glorified golf cart? I might be able to construct such an animal, but I should expect severe performance limitations. 

Like I said, I have two ICE VWs that I basically use for no more than my commute and random errands. Neither of them have been outside the DC Beltway in years. The Ghia went to the Shenandoah in '02. That's it. I am pretty comfortable in saying with certainty what my limited needs are.


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## Wolfswagen (Jul 2, 2012)

Rodney,
I just started my VW project this July, and I'd like to think I'm about 70% complete. My total cost will be just over $10k, and that includes a lot of new VW parts to get the car back on the road. I don't expect to get quite the range you need with the 60ah battery pack I'm starting with (CALB CA60FI, 96v for now), but if I were going to only need ~45mph I could have definitely cut costs in other areas.
This forum has kept me on what I think is the right path - I can't say I've made any huge mistakes yet, but there has been a great deal of research behind each step. The greatest lesson I've learned so far is to be sure not to make difficult decisions without "querying the masses".
Now that I'm getting close to turning on the switch, I keep asking myself why I didn't think of doing this before...

Robert


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## RodneyW (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks, Robert. I'd like to bump this back up and see if I can get a reaction.

So a 72 volt DC Motor and a half dozen 12 volt deep cycle lead acid batteries = glorified golf cart? I might be able to construct such an animal, but I should expect severe performance limitations. But could I reliably get 30 miles on a charge at 45 MPH max?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

With 6 12 volt deep cycle batteries. NO. At 25 mph maybe. Reliably? Maybe at 25 mph for a short time and most likely not in the WINTER unless you kept the batteries nice and warm. 

Pete


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

What size batteries? If they're anything like mine you could expect to get 10-12 miles @ 50% DOD for about a year.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RodneyW said:


> But could I reliably get 30 miles on a charge at 45 MPH max?


With lead this is barely possible and probably wouldn't be able to do it after just a few months. Fairly easy with Lithium. You would want 35 100AH cells or 39 90AH cells or 50 70AH cells or 59 60AH cells. And that is just an estimate. For you it is not speed so much as stops and starts and hills that can hurt the range. This would most likely be around $5000 for the lithium batteries to go this far daily with a little buffer.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

dougingraham said:


> With lead this is barely possible and probably wouldn't be able to do it after just a few months. Fairly easy with Lithium. You would want 35 100AH cells or 39 90AH cells or 50 70AH cells or 59 60AH cells. And that is just an estimate. For you it is not speed so much as stops and starts and hills that can hurt the range. This would most likely be around $5000 for the lithium batteries to go this far daily with a little buffer.


I happen to use just this setup in my Ligier Optima. 56 60Ah Lithium cells (Sinopoly). Set me back around 3500€ ~ 4500$
The car is spec'd at 15kW drives up 100kph/60mph. Haven't done a final range check, furthest I've done so far is 40km/25miles in hilly terrain. The motor is a rewound industrial 3~ ACIM.
One more thing: I'd never ever buy lead batteries again. They were only 1000€ but dead after 2 years or 6000km


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## RodneyW (Oct 11, 2012)

Cutting to the chase ... I am sensing some serious skepticism that a Wilderness EV Kit #2 can meet the expectations they suggest.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

They don't provide batteries, so that doesn't matter much.


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## Wolfswagen (Jul 2, 2012)

RodneyW said:


> Cutting to the chase ... I am sensing some serious skepticism that a Wilderness EV Kit #2 can meet the expectations they suggest.


Wilderness EV is actually the first company I was looking at when I started my research (they sell a 12hp VW kit on eBay for $2,300 plus shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200369951280?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649). I initially used their "price list" as a tool to ensure I wasn't missing any of the required items... I do respect what they're trying to do (low priced / low performance kit for the masses), but I had to learn more about what I was building. I can't remember more than one or two bloggers on this site that have mentioned buying from them, which should say something.

I'm spending ~$3,000 on lithium batteries for 96v that should get the baja about 10-12 miles and 40-45 mph top. With that math, I would think you should be able to keep your project under $10k total (not including the cost of the donor of course). In summary, it would be $5k - $6k for batteries; $1,200 for D&D ES-31B motor; $1,200 for middle quality controller; $600 for the charger; and $1,000 for the other stuff. If you shop around and aren't in a big hurry, hundreds can be saved on these parts if you can find the deals out there.

To those that have been in this EV world longer than four months - don't forget while you read the above that I'm still a noob here!

Robert


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