# AC motor VW beetle rear-end swap?



## eTrike (Apr 21, 2014)

I've got a 2006 Zap Xebra SD, and a Geo Metro with an AC30 motor setup. I can't justify keeping the Metro and I love the Xebra, but the AC30 motor would be a huge upgrade if only the rear end could fit it. So I looked into rear-engine, rear-wheel drive vehicles and the trusty old Beetle jumped out at me. Anyone with Beetle experience have an idea what the rear end swap would take? Any other comments?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I have a VW bug and an 11"Kostov DC motor. The VW will handle quite a bit. In a light weight trike layout the AC-30 would be more than fine. Be sure you use a clutched system with your VW and be sure to have at least a level 2 or better clutch and pressure plate. Use a new throwout bearing. Be sure you use the proper one for your setup. 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/471


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## eTrike (Apr 21, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. The clutch would be tricky to implement. I assume I could leave it in 2nd or 3rd and skip the shifting. I'm also fairly certain this isn't a project I have the resources for at the moment, but I need to either strip and save or sell the AC setup in the next month to make space so I was trying to imagine how I could put the AC in the Zap if sale doesn't work out (motor is 2 inches too long without adapter).


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Everyone has their preference about clutch or clutchless. I put a lot of effort into lightening the flywheel, new clutch and HD pressure plate. I leave the car in 2nd and don't use the clutch. I have a AC35 and even with a heavy duty pressure plate the clutch was slipping in 3rd if I hit it hard from a standstill. With my knowledge today I would have gone without a clutch. I never take the car past 60 mph and with a freeway flyer gearing that equates to 6000 RPM in 2nd gear..


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Clutch is easy and you don't need a super light weight one either. In a VW you do want to shift if you don't want to blow out your clutch. You can also take full advantage of the torque and power and pretty much 1st is not used. But the others will be. I use mine. Even with my custom Super Street transmission I will rarely ever use first. But second third and fourth will be utilized and if you shift a VW you want to save your transmission. That means you need to use the clutch. It will also mean you don't stress out your motor like those that leave them in 3rd and create such high torque you burn out your clutch. Use second then like your engine move into 3rd then 4th. You can take the trans to higher revs with the electric motor.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

As I said, everyone has their preference. Now you have the pros and cons. No clutch could save you those inches you need. I am not sure what Pete means about needing to shift if you don't want to blow out your clutch. That hasn't been a problem for me.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

3rd gear starts are quite hard on your clutch if you have a strong motor. Second is easier but you blow through the gears fast. Using the gears available gets you to speed with little effort. Shifting with out the clutch will tear your synchro gears out. Not a good thing. When you need to shit you will be happy with the clutch. I much prefer to use 2nd to get me going then move into 3rd. Most motors will fit if you know how to put one in. I have an 11" Kostov and a pretty long adaptor from Rebirth Auto and still got the motor in without cutting. A Warp 9 will need a tiny bit of trim but not a major cut. An AC 50 will fit no issues at all. Plenty of poop with one of those too. 


Protect your equipment and use it as it was intended. If you do go clutchless you will not be a happy camper when you find you need to shift into a different gear and doing it fast will not happen. I move about in traffic rather briskly and need my clutch all the time. If I want to tule around like a golf cart then I guess only one gear is fine.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

Haha, golf. There is a reason that all the production EV'S are clutchless.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

And it has nothing to do with the transmission . Have you tried to buy a manual transmission car in this last couple of years? Mine end up being special order. There was only 1 golf tdi on the left coast in white without a shlushbox


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I can understand why one would want to shift a DC motor like Pete has. The OP has length issues and going clutchless might help solve that issue. I was trying to give him some feedback that going clutchless is the NOT end of the world like Pete seems to feel it is. It is merely a matter of personal preferences that revolve around our own very personal experiences. I have disconnected the clutch cable so the clutch pedal is out of the way and I have even removed the shift lever so I don't get the vibration. One can get by without shifting which is especially easy with the high RPMs that you can get out of an AC motor. Then logically, if you are not needing to shift you don't need a clutch.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Its not the end of the world. Don't make it out to be more than it is. Its a matter of using what is available the way it was meant to be used and a matter of taking care of your equipment. It is to your advantage to do so. With low voltage systems it is pretty much needed. Now if you decided to build a system that utilized 300 plus volts then rebuild the transmission with only reverse and what ever single drive gear you want and remove the rest if you can. But for most DIY builds we all build sub 200 volt setups and most sub 150v setups. Its best to then utilize the current equipment in the vehicle. AC or DC. 

If you are having size issues then maybe you should be considering a different motor. If you are using an AC 50 you don't have size issues. If your trying to shoehorn in an AC-75 then you will have issues even if you go clutchless. Even clutchless you need spacers and a good solid connection on both ends. You want no slop. 

Over time, shifting without a clutch will ruin your transmission. You don't drive your car without oil do you? Why drive a stick with out a clutch. Keep the clutch but don't shift if you don't need. No need to remove it out of the vehicle. Its not an deal what so ever for an electric motor to spin up the little extra weight of a flywheel and pressure plate. If your racing and need that extra 1/1000th of a second shaved off your time then YES, remove the clutch system. For the street, its a moot point to even consider removing it. 

If your motor is too long consider a different motor. In a VW even a little AC-35 is plenty and plenty enough to give you good power. 

But in the end its your choice. 
Im trying to give you the best choices. Not what some think is an ok practice.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ampster said:


> Haha, golf. There is a reason that all the production EV'S are clutchless.


Yeah, High Voltage Systems. I know I drive one.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I think this is the type of vehicle the OP was talking about putting a VW transaxle in. Also he wanted to utilize the existing motor.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

Ampster said:


> View attachment 41274
> I think this is the type of vehicle the OP was talking about putting a VW transaxle in. Also he wanted to utilize the existing motor.


That reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson driving the Reliant Robin on Top Gear :


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ampster said:


> View attachment 41274
> I think this is the type of vehicle the OP was talking about putting a VW transaxle in. Also he wanted to utilize the existing motor.


I'd just buy a VW. But hey, if the OP wants to re-engineer that he's more than welcome and we will watch in anticipation of the final outcome. 

Not my cup of tea but to each his own. 

Pete


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

If you read his initial post carefully you will see that he wanted to keep the Zap and use his existing AC30 motor. He was concerned about the Zap tranny being able to handle the torque of the AC motor. He was seeking advice about incorporating a VW transaxle. You jumped in and I quickly followed to hijack his thread and turn it into a clutch vs clutchless debate. After going back and rereading his post I realized it would be a lot simpler integration if he didn't have to figure out clutch and shift linkages. Also If the top speed of that 3 wheeler was under 60mph, there might not be any need to shift that AC motor.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

If he wants to re-engineer the Zap with a VW Transaxle I do believe he will have the where with all to figure out a simple shifter. But really, a VW transaxle in a ZAP? Why not just get an AC 20 and go with that. That sucker will make a Zap fly with the stock configuration. The Zap is an enclosed three wheel golf cart. It won't take much to make it a decent driver. Even with an AC 30 it should do just fine. No one says he has to utilize all the power from that motor. That motor is not designed for high speeds anyway. I bet he can just integrate into the existing drive line and be good. You can de-tune if its just too powerful. 

Pete 

I almost purchased one. But I need a freeway legal vehicle. We have lots out here for real cheap. Upgrade them to an AC 20 and re-sell them as a more powerful Zap and longer distance Zap because I'd put in lithium.


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## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

We haven't heard much from the original poster in a while. There is a lot of information on the Internet about VW trike conversions. Most of the engineering issues have been solved by the thousands before us who have already done that.


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## eTrike (Apr 21, 2014)

Huh I just got notification of the one reply this morning, I had missed all the others. Thanks for your thoughtful discussion.

I was trying to envision a way to utilize the AC30 and controller I've got to turn the Zap into a more powerful regen capable machine if the car didn't sell (sale is now pending).

The Reliant Robin episode was comical, but the Xebra is pretty stable as the batteries keep the COG low. I've got ~15kWh worth of A123s for it, but have only been able to use ~4kWh due to controller's 90V limit, which will hopefully be solved as soon as I get the cash from the car. 

The stock Zap motor and axle are pretty weak and parts are becoming harder to find. I'd be thrilled to have the regen ability of the AC, but it was a dream that will likely not materialize on the Zap in the near future. FWIW I intend to keep top speed at ~45mph. 

On a side note, I connected a Cycle Analyst HC that I use in the Xebra to the Metro and averaged 170 Wh/mi with 15% regen in a 35mph neighborhood 5 mile loop and 183 Wh/mi with ~10% regen in a 9 mile 45mph stretch. 
If only the insurance wasn't drastically higher than the Xebra and I had twice the batteries to spare I'd love to keep them both. For now it seems the Metro will pass on to an owner who will use it to replace a gasser for 40 mi round trips.


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