# Propane range extension system



## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

Why propane? It is expensive and made from oil like gasoline or from natural gas. Do you want a ICE backup on a normally electric powered vehicle?


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

What are the other options?


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

atzi said:


> Why propane? It is expensive and made from oil like gasoline or from natural gas. Do you want a ICE backup on a normally electric powered vehicle?


yes, i do want ICE back up due to range needs. i want propane or NG over gasoline due to emissions issues. i was checking propane prices and it's cheaper than gasoline.

i can't afford the $15k to put in enough battery capacity to justify spending upfront costs on a conversion. likewise, i can't afford any of the new production EV's or hybrids.

for me, the idea of loading up on 30 pounds of propane to augment distance is pretty much awesome. considering low carbon emissions when a generator kicks in, makes the prospect that much more attractive.

think chevy volt, except clean burning propane.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

booksix said:


> What are the other options?


i dunno, that's why i'm asking you smart-guys 

i'm hoping folks can provide some insight.


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

Sorry, my question was directed toward "atzi" as he questioned the idea but didn't offer a solution. I also am thinking about a hybrid option (add on a generator trailer to extend range when driving further than the daily commute)...


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

Small diesel powered by veggie oil or bio diesel. Or you can convert your small gas generator to alcohol. Easy to make and easy to convert. 

Pete





hobbssamuelj said:


> i dunno, that's why i'm asking you smart-guys
> 
> i'm hoping folks can provide some insight.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

booksix said:


> Sorry, my question was directed toward "atzi" as he questioned the idea but didn't offer a solution. I also am thinking about a hybrid option (add on a generator trailer to extend range when driving further than the daily commute)...


see, with my job, i don't have a standard commute to work. i'm a social worker. i do home visits all over wayne county, where detroit is located. some days i travel less than 10 miles, which would be perfect for an EV. other days i intend to travel just 10 miles and i get a call and need to see a client with little warning and travel 100 miles. a trailer would be rad, except it'd be difficult to pull a trailer into some of the neighborhoods that i travel in, because of safety issues.

i'm worried less about the footprint of propane or NG, than i am about the footprint of gasoline and diesel. propane generators appear to have fewer maintenance needs than other ICE set-ups.


----------



## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

booksix said:


> Sorry, my question was directed toward "atzi" as he questioned the idea but didn't offer a solution. I also am thinking about a hybrid option (add on a generator trailer to extend range when driving further than the daily commute)...


I guess you are referring to where I asked ......
_"Do you want a ICE backup on a normally electric powered vehicle? "_

Just trying to make sure what hobbssamuelj is contemplating and I am just getting the ideas out here.


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

I gotcha... I was just curious if you did have something else in mind because I am looking for options as well.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

my only concern is how you charge a battery while your running off of it? can you charge while drawing current?

if you can charge to lead batteries while you're drawing current, would you wire the batteries in parallel or serial? if you can't charge while you drawing current, you'd have to wire in some super bada$$ switches to direct generated electricity to low-powered batteries, right?

i'm no genius here, i'm just spitballin'.


----------



## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

hobbssamuelj said:


> yes, i do want ICE back up due to range needs. i want propane or NG over gasoline due to emissions issues. i was checking propane prices and it's cheaper than gasoline.
> 
> i can't afford the $15k to put in enough battery capacity to justify spending upfront costs on a conversion. likewise, i can't afford any of the new production EV's or hybrids.
> 
> ...


Little bit I know about natural gas and propane.........................
I remember in the mid 1980's I worked as an automotive mechanic for a shop where we repaired our town's utility vehicles. 
Jackson, TN 
These vehicles had been converted to run on natural gas. One truck I repaired ran on propane. The conversion was an outfit that sprayed in through the carburetor's top where the breather goes. The more vacuum the engine produced, the more the lever was pulled and discharged more gas. Simple and not many problems. The trucks could run on either gasoline or natural gas. The oil stayed very clean especially on the propane truck, its oil always looked new . The city later quit using the hybrid setup as the trucks were replaced with fuel injected trucks.
Not directly related to Electric-Propane but some history.. maybe.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

^^^ see, that's great!!!

so, that supports the notion of converting a small electric generator to propane because it'd be carbureted.

i've seen generators that rate at 5k watts for the $2-500 range. can somebody help me out in calculating how many watt output a generator would need to be effective in charging enough batteries to push an s10?


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

Oil is still dirty but not visible due to almost no carbon build up from combustion. The City was stupid to make the move to fuel injection. Anyway you can convert fuel injected vehicles too to NG or Propane. Nice thing about propane and NG is that the fuel is a gas and not atomized gasoline. NG fields are plentiful in the US and not associated with oil in most cases. Methane is another one of those too. Could be used to replace all gasoline to power our country and no outside country would be involved. 

Build a still and convert waste fruit to alcohol and use that instead. Carbon neutral. However Diesel using bio or straight veggie oil is also carbon neutral or at least better than using diesel or gasoline or propane. 

Pete





atzi said:


> Little bit I know about natural gas and propane.........................
> I remember in the mid 1980's I worked as an automotive mechanic for a shop where we repaired our town's utility vehicles.
> Jackson, TN
> These vehicles had been converted to run on natural gas. One truck I repaired ran on propane. The conversion was an outfit that sprayed in through the carburetor's top where the breather goes. The more vacuum the engine produced, the more the lever was pulled and discharged more gas. Simple and not many problems. The trucks could run on either gasoline or natural gas. The oil stayed very clean especially on the propane truck, its oil always looked new . The city later quit using the hybrid setup as the trucks were replaced with fuel injected trucks.
> Not directly related to Electric-Propane but some history.. maybe.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

maybe there's a benefit to converting a diesel generator to propane, then, so i could use some biodiesel fuel along with propane depending on availability.

i live in michigan, so fruit for a still would be difficult to keep around in the winter.


----------



## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I inherited a 70's vintage ford van, back in the 80's. 300" 6 cyl, auto,, converted to propane. (it actually would run gasoline also). When the rest of the van fell apart at +300,000 miles, the engine was still dependable. I kept the conversion kit in hopes of using it again some day.
I also run 5% propane over a chip in my diesel 'planet killer'. ( '03 3500 dodge) When I'm pulling my dozer over the mountain passes, I seldom have to pull over to let others pass. You can realize major HP improvements as well as clean up the emissions in a diesel combination generator.


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't think you can run much propane in a diesel. Only a small supplement but that would be better. As for converting a gas engine to alcohol you could make enough during the summer for a years supply. It really would not be that much for a small generator to use. But that is ok because not every one has ideal situations for the different alternatives out there. Picking one is tough but find your best alternative and go with it. Try it with a gasoline generator for now to make sure it all works as planned then convert to a different source for your fuel. For many propane would be a good choice as it is cheap enough, clean burning and easy to convert with out having a large high pressure tank to worry about. You can get propane just about anywhere. It is stored in liquid form under only minor pressure. Makes an ideal alternative for many. Now mind you it is not going away from petrol but it is good to know we provide all our own propane so the money stays home. That is one more benifit. I never expected to see gasoling or it's products go completely away but to keep as much here and use a cleaner burning substitute is going in the right direction. 

For many all electric is not viable either. So we must all pick and choose according to our needs. 

Pete : )




hobbssamuelj said:


> maybe there's a benefit to converting a diesel generator to propane, then, so i could use some biodiesel fuel along with propane depending on availability.
> 
> i live in michigan, so fruit for a still would be difficult to keep around in the winter.


----------



## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

gottdi said:


> For many all electric is not viable either. So we must all pick and choose according to our needs.
> Pete : )


Well said!!


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

yeah, i'm reading that about max 5% can be augmented to an existing diesel fuel system. maybe it'd be better to do gas/e-85/propane generator and then retrofit to a dc lead setup.

i really like multiple fuel options. can a set-up that is converted for propane, run on NG as well? what's the difference there?


----------



## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

hobbssamuelj said:


> yeah, i'm reading that about max 5% can be augmented to an existing diesel fuel system. maybe it'd be better to do gas/e-85/propane generator and then retrofit to a dc lead setup.
> 
> i really like multiple fuel options. can a set-up that is converted for propane, run on NG as well? what's the difference there?


Only non-diesel engines could be 100% converted, but I believe if you set it up to run on propane it would probably run just as well on NG. I can't 
imagine any reasons that it couldn't, the combustion is the same.


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

NG can run the same as Propane but NG uses a high pressure container to carry liquid NG. Propane uses low pressure to carry liquid Propane.

: )




Technologic said:


> Only non-diesel engines could be 100% converted, but I believe if you set it up to run on propane it would probably run just as well on NG. I can't
> imagine any reasons that it couldn't, the combustion is the same.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

gottdi said:


> NG can run the same as Propane but NG uses a high pressure container to carry liquid NG. Propane uses low pressure to carry liquid Propane.
> 
> : )


I believe natural gas is stored as a compressed gas. Propane is stored as a liquid. 

Thanks...and sorry for the interruption...


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

That is true but if you want any range with NG you will want high pressure and stored as a liquid. Short range NG compressed gas is fine but again that leaves you with a short range like electrics do already. 




DIYguy said:


> I believe natural gas is stored as a compressed gas. Propane is stored as a liquid.
> 
> Thanks...and sorry for the interruption...


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

How accessible is Liquid Natural Gas? I want a generator trailer to make my car into a series hybrid but of course, it only makes sense if I can pick up fuel in almost any city along the way...


----------



## Guest (Jan 17, 2009)

Liquid NG is less available than Gas NG but neither are as available as Propane. Sorry. I think the conversion to propane is easier than to NG.

Pete : )






booksix said:


> How accessible is Liquid Natural Gas? I want a generator trailer to make my car into a series hybrid but of course, it only makes sense if I can pick up fuel in almost any city along the way...


----------



## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

hobbssamuelj said:


> yeah, i'm reading that about max 5% can be augmented to an existing diesel fuel system. maybe it'd be better to do gas/e-85/propane generator and then retrofit to a dc lead setup.
> 
> i really like multiple fuel options. can a set-up that is converted for propane, run on NG as well? what's the difference there?


 
Generally the difference is orfice size for a given cfm. Propane, becouse it is a liquid, requires some way to keep it from freezing as it converts from liquid to gas. Most of the units, I have seen use the engine coolant to flash the liquid.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I did some research on LPG conversion last year for my ICE truck. Basically, there are two main types. A flooded system and an injected system. The flooded system is by far the most common but also the most problematic. It tends to lead to backfiring (I'm talking blow your intake manifold apart type backfiring..lol) if the throttle is opened too far when the car is not warmed up. Most ppl who have this, start their vehicles on gas and after warming up switch over. Vehicles with this conversion tend to not pass the emissions testing (at least in Ontario) when running duel fuel on LPG. 
The injected version is more expensive, but also more efficient and less problematic with respect to the backfiring issue.

I plan to pull a LPG (20 HP Kohler) motor generator if/when I need the range. It is an AC/DC welder with 8KW (240V) continuous power output. 

cheers.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

alchohol - hmmm...I wonder what the local supermarkets do with their bad fruit and potatoes.


----------



## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

hobbssamuelj said:


> i've seen generators that rate at 5k watts for the $2-500 range. can somebody help me out in calculating how many watt output a generator would need to be effective in charging enough batteries to push an s10?


I need others to check my math here, but I believe that if your car uses, say, 300 watts/mile, then to maintain 40 mph, you'd need 12kw; for 60 mph you'd need 18kw; etc.

Also, no one answered the question about whether batteries can charge while we're drawing power from them. I assume the answer is yes, since that seems to be the basis of a series hybrid.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> Also, no one answered the question about whether batteries can charge while we're drawing power from them. I assume the answer is yes, since that seems to be the basis of a series hybrid.


yes, they can be. All cars do this normally with the ICE configuration also.

Cheers.


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

sailfish11 said:


> I need others to check my math here, but I believe that if your car uses, say, 300 watts/mile, then to maintain 40 mph, you'd need 12kw; for 60 mph you'd need 18kw; etc.
> 
> Also, no one answered the question about whether batteries can charge while we're drawing power from them. I assume the answer is yes, since that seems to be the basis of a series hybrid.


300watt/mile is a lot...on the higher-end, more like for trucks and non-aerodynamic vehicles...

I would say if you are installing a small battery pack (less weight) AND you are using a aerodynamic and light donor car for your DIY EV, you would only be using 200w/mile...so 60mph would need 12kw...and 30mph would require 6kw....a 6kw generator would be charging the pack when driving below 30mph...

What about two 6kw generators....??? 12kw...would be enough to have a positive flow of energy to the pack at any speed below 60mph... (if your batteries could take it)


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I think the members that have mentioned ethanol are right on....

This is a fuel that can be made from trash...ANY carb/fruit breaks down into sugar...sugar turns into alcohol...and it can be made from home...

Gas (which can be converted to ethanol) generators are generaly cheaper than propane or diesel generators.

So like someone said....check out your local market for waste produce and dont forget to check out the local movie theater for waste popcorn (corn ethanol)!!!


----------



## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

I have wondered if the constant discharge and charging of a generator would shorten the life of the batteries?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

xtreme cartz said:


> I have wondered if the constant discharge and charging of a generator would shorten the life of the batteries?


I always thought that overcharging and overdischarging a battery is what was the worst for battery life...


----------



## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

So once you have your AC gen head http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45416
and engine of choice mounted on the car, how do you make it charge the DC batteries??


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

i'm hard pressed to see an advantage to natural gas over propane. if you end up getting an extended range system in place with a liquid gas system, you could order propane in bulk, or at low market points, and fill up your hybrid at home out a 100gal tank.

liquid propane gas is available allllllll over. i've been checking. every uhaul franchise sells it. every welding supply shop sells it. hell, ever walmart sells it in smaller amounts.

propane is used extensively in rural areas for home heating. where i'm from, people have huge 500 gallon tanks that are about 8 feet long, 4 foot diameter tubes that is piped into the home for cooking and heating. companies deliver to the home with semi's however often someone needs it.

i'm still needing help with the math to figure out how many watts generating power i would need to make a propane hybrid system viable. any einstens out there?


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I always thought that overcharging and overdischarging a battery is what was the worst for battery life...


my plan would be to turn on the generator only when guages tell me i'm running down on juice. i'd charge the batteries to however whatever level i need to get me where i'm going and then shut the generator down and run on electricity.


----------



## hobbssamuelj (Dec 23, 2008)

xtreme cartz said:


> So once you have your AC gen head http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45416
> and engine of choice mounted on the car, how do you make it charge the DC batteries??


i'm assuming that you simply wire the generator to the battery packs. it seems like most batteries are hooked to the dc motor in serial. but my intuition is telling me that the generator should be wired back to the batteries in parallel.

this brings up another point for me: if batteries are wired to the dc motor in serial, does the last battery in the series lose it's charge faster than the first battery in the series? if that's the case, could the generator simply be wired to the last battery in the series?


----------



## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

hobbssamuelj said:


> i'm still needing help with the math to figure out how many watts generating power i would need to make a propane hybrid system viable. any einstens out there?


For example, my 96 volt car on average uses 100 amps to maintain a speed of 35 mph = 9600 watts. I believe it will need a 10,000 watt generator running at max output to maintain 35 mph and not use any battery power.


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

that seems really high compared to what I've read elsewhere (don't remember where). I was thinking a 15kw unit to maintain around 70 with my 144 setup..... ?


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

btw, thanks for th link to the harbor freight gen head. I didn't realize gen heads had the a/c outlets and all built in. A unit like that with a 20 hp LP engine (coupled by belt OR coupler to maximize shape of complete generator unit) could be perfect. I could use this on a small, homemade trailer! killer


----------



## EV4EODguy (Dec 30, 2008)

I was thinking about this also. It would be nice to use an EV for family trips. I had in mind a small trailer with a genny and some lugage room. The question is for the physics guys. If you supplied 110V from a 3500Kw genny could you swap it to dC and runn the system or would it simply be for an underway recharge?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

In my future setup I am planning to keep it simple and let my Nivan do the charging, whether a plug or a genset is the source, no matter...

I think this article is put together rather nicely...

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/articles/hybridizing_dc_system.html


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

3500 kw? gonna power your entire neighborhood during black out? LOL Anyway, it seems that it could do either scenarios (although, running the system direct would still technically be indirect as it'd be going through the batteries just like charging). This is what I think I'm going to do. 15-20 kw generator, Zivan and a trailer (also with extra storage space)

Only problem I have now is I don't have 220 available at home _or_ work. Could this setup work with a 110 (or 115 whatever) Zivan?


----------



## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

booksix said:


> that seems really high compared to what I've read elsewhere (don't remember where). I was thinking a 15kw unit to maintain around 70 with my 144 setup..... ?


 
A 144 volt system would be more efficient than 96 volts plus the aerodynamics of my 1983 wagon don't help things. It's possible other setups would require much less power to move.


I'm confused about using a charger to convert the AC power to DC. I don't know the specs of a Zivan charger but lets say it puts out 144 volts DC at 15 amps. Thats only 2160 watts so unless you string 10 Zivan chargers together, you won't need a 15kw generator. 

I don't think a charger will put out enough power to be useful. Plus aren't there multiple charge cycles it normally goes through when charging a battery? I imagine the voltage drop while driving will cause problems with trying to use the charger at the same time.


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

xtreme cartz said:


> I'm confused about using a charger to convert the AC power to DC. I don't know the specs of a Zivan charger but lets say it puts out 144 volts DC at 15 amps. Thats only 2160 watts so unless you string 10 Zivan chargers together, you won't need a 15kw generator.
> 
> I don't think a charger will put out enough power to be useful. Plus aren't there multiple charge cycles it normally goes through when charging a battery? I imagine the voltage drop while driving will cause problems with trying to use the charger at the same time.


Good points. I really don't know. All I know if the ev consulting page lists a bunch of options (only up to 12kw for 60 mph I think) and even at that size your calculations wouldn't come out. So, i really don't know. Can anyone else explain this for us?


----------



## EV4EODguy (Dec 30, 2008)

May be WAAAY outside the box here but... how about a switch, keep in mind I am thinking like a hunter/gatherer bus bar type switch. Genny ay 20Kw, 300W for 66MPH. You couls set up the generator for your EV voltage and run off of generator only. Right?


----------



## booksix (Aug 26, 2008)

most likely, but I'm assumng you'd still want the batteries in between as a buffer; just like you don't want to run your ice car on the alternator only... ??


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

EV4EODguy said:


> May be WAAAY outside the box here but... how about a switch, keep in mind I am thinking like a hunter/gatherer bus bar type switch. Genny ay 20Kw, 300W for 66MPH. You couls set up the generator for your EV voltage and run off of generator only. Right?


That's what I'm thinking...(but I'm not an electronics guy) 

I have a 30Kw 3ph 400hz 120/208VAC 111 amp generator head (out of a Boeing 737 - similar to a -60 generator head) that I plan to run with a small engine, and then rectify it to DC with a 150Amp 800v full-wave bridge rectifier.

I'm hoping to regulate the voltage out of the rectifier to somewhere around 160VDC and run it throught the battery pack, or into the controller and motor directly.

I'm thinking of running my truck off the battery pack most of the time and hauling the gen-set on a small trailer for longer trips. 

I like the idea of a liquid-cooled engine as the generator engine as opposed to air-cooled so a aerodynamic enclosure could be used for the trailered generator set.

Sorta like this one: http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

http://www.madkatz.com/acpropulsion/longRanger.html

Since the GM Chevy Volt will normally use it's 53Kw generator in the 25-30Kw range to go 65mph on a slight incline, I figure 30Kw will definitely fill the bill for me and others most of the time as well.

If the generator has an electric starter, it could start it from the cockpit on demand. You could also have a transfer switch to switch it from batteries to back up generator whenever you want.

I'm thinking the batteries and the rectified and regulated generator power could tie into a common copper DC bus bar (like on a regular circuit breaker panel at home) and the motor controller could tap the existing (combined) power from there as long as the voltage is regulated into it to avoid damaging the controller or putting too much power into the battery pack.

People who want to use a smaller generator head could do the same thing and use it for a range extender but maybe not power the controller/motor exclusively from the generator set.

Whatever gen set is used, the (DC regulated) power will need to be smoothed using the battery pack as a buffer, or through a smoothing capacitor to fill in the gaps and clean up the irregular waveform ripples before it gets to the motor. 

The 400hz power the aircraft generator head puts out has a cleaner waveform than 50/60hz power so "normal" generator heads will probably need more smoothing before it goes to the controller/motor.


----------



## ragee (May 25, 2008)

Awesome link tj4fa,

That is exactly what I was looking for. I really like this range extender idea could be the answer for the occasional 50 to 60 mile run.

R Agee


----------



## heynow999 (Mar 2, 2008)

HI

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but you can get off the shelf propane generators from Princess auto in Canada. I'm sure you can find them in the US. If you have the space, you could try to produce methane in your backyard to power it. The method is pretty much like composting, but with water in a barrel.


----------

