# anybody making a living with conversions?



## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

On occasion I have had people tell me I should start making electric cars and sell them. I right away ask if they want to buy one if I build it. The answer has always been no. If anyone ever said yes I would say no because of the liabilities. There is no such thing as idiot proof. You might build several great cars then one dummy will come along and manage to sue your butt off for doing something stupid with the car that no normally sane person would even consider doing. If you are really sharp with electricity and conversions you might consider just consulting. That way you would have no initial monetary outlay and could possibly draw business from outside your town.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

dragonsgate said:


> On occasion I have had people tell me I should start making electric cars and sell them. I right away ask if they want to buy one if I build it. The answer has always been no. If anyone ever said yes I would say no because of the liabilities. There is no such thing as idiot proof. You might build several great cars then one dummy will come along and manage to sue your butt off for doing something stupid with the car that no normally sane person would even consider doing. If you are really sharp with electricity and conversions you might consider just consulting. That way you would have no initial monetary outlay and could possibly draw business from outside your town.


yeah.... this is kindof paralleling what I am finding locally. I have filed a new LLC to insulate personal property from conversion activity, and could get an umbrella liability policy and a garagekeepers insurance that would 'probably' protect me, but would have to have regular business to pay for that coverage..... and while there is lots of interest and appreciation of my conversion(s), I haven't had anyone ready to write a check to buy or hire in a consulting capacity. Gotta keep the day job for now. ;(

I have just put my Miata up on craigslist, and am making a serious effort to attempt a sale for profit... but I am losing faith in making this a sustainable standalone business.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Care to post the Craigslist link on this forum? (perhaps in the for sale section)


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

njloof said:


> Care to post the Craigslist link on this forum? (perhaps in the for sale section)


well, I guess I could... its:
http://santafe.craigslist.org/cto/3922362502.html

I had not done the general classifieds here, or pursued eBay yet since I SUSPECT that seeing the vehicle 'live', test drive, and local support will be major concerns for the non-DIY purchaser. I am thinking that the development of a LOCAL market is more the goal than a one-time sale across the country somewhere...


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

Nice looking conversion -- I'd love to see more under the hood! I'm doing a Miata conversion myself based on the plans from evmiata.com.

Maybe try the miata.net guys -- they have regional sections that might find you a local buyer.

These types of conversions are a tough sell in general, I think, because of the increasing number of production EVs available -- but for someone who loves the Miata, or who wants a convertible but won't spend $75k+ for a used Roadster, perhaps there's a niche...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

njloof said:


> Nice looking conversion -- I'd love to see more under the hood! I'm doing a Miata conversion myself based on the plans from evmiata.com.


I have lots of pix on my build site... follow the link in my sig. I also have a front battery support rack I pulled out from original build if you have any interest. It was designed for 12v AGMs (Optima yellowtops), and the 130ah CALBs I put in were too tall to use it. I hate to sell for scrap.... It might work if you are planning a 100ah cell build.



njloof said:


> Maybe try the miata.net guys -- they have regional sections that might find you a local buyer.


I registered there 6 months ago and have gotten help on the Miata-specific repairs like the new soft top installation. Most of the responses I got were that they didn't like the idea of limited range and wanted to be able to taking long sunday drives.... I did get awarded 'Miata of the Month' by the editors!



njloof said:


> These types of conversions are a tough sell in general, I think, because of the increasing number of production EVs available -- but for someone who loves the Miata, or who wants a convertible but won't spend $75k+ for a used Roadster, perhaps there's a niche...


Hence this thread.... trying to find out if any market is working for anyone. I'm planning a conversion of an old English sports car, a '62 Sunbeam Alpine, but can't tell if that will sell any better or not.


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## EVSource Mikey (Apr 24, 2012)

A good part of our business at EV Source is supplying parts for conversion shops who do make a living with what they're doing. Some of them also run a car shop of some other kind (body, mechanic, restorations), but there are a few that do conversions exclusively.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EVSource Mikey said:


> ... there are a few that do conversions exclusively.


who? wondering how they sustain a volume of sales... have to build at least a car a month to pay decent wages for one person I think.

I am curious to hear what their typical market is, whether they build on spec or 'to suit', and if they offer rental, lease, financing or just cash sales.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I considered this as well, because there seems to be a lot of interest in Columbus (OH), but that also seems to be where it stops - passive interest. I haven't proactively advertised or tried to make a sale, but I have been in the community workshop building the hot rods for the past two years. People oooh, ahhh, and wow (literally just heard a "Wow!" a couple hours ago), but never even express the slightest interest in even learning more about it. I figure a real potential customer would have asked me about building one for them - nothing. One guy, who is a fellow business owner here, has a Mini with a blown head gasket that he wants to convert, but he just asks really general questions about doing conversions (Is it hard? Is it expensive?), and has never even asked me to sit down and go over what it would take, in detail, with him.

There are, however, a handful of Priuses and Volts in the parking lot on a regular basis, and I suspect that the prepackaged, easy, way rules here. In fact, in the almost five years I have been here, I have met two other people who have actually done a conversion, and very few who have thought about it.

I've also noticed that I never really hear much about cars that were converted by a "pro" shop; in the news or here on the forum. I know this is DIY, but there are people here with production EVs, and people who have purchased an already converted EV and want to upgrade or learn about them. I don't remember ever reading, "I purchased this so-and-so, which was converted by XYZ EVs, in Timbuktu. How do I..."

Finally, in comparing this whole cottage industry to the hot rod industry, from whence I come (there are a LOT of similarities): The hot rod industry is fueled a lot by people wanting to recreate the past, whereas EVs represent the future. There are a precious handful that want to recreate the past with future technology, but the field (of prospective customers) starts to get pretty narrow. With production EVs ramping up, it will be a hard sell (IMO) to get people to make such a huge commitment and investment, when there is very strong, easily obtainable, competition in production vehicles with the absolute best of the best technology. A more feasible commercial venture might be in servicing and upgrading those vehicles down the road.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

the only 'steady' business I have bumped into has been the shop in Boulder that has a franchise to upgrade the gen.2 Prius to plug-in when their stock batteries die. 

I am giving this a good go in the next few months, and we'll see what happens. I am JUST starting some local advertising and plan to give an open lecture or two to see if there is a hidden market... Thing is, even if I had a backlog, I doubt I can physically put together more than 5 or 10 conversions at best per year, which still wouldn't provide much income given pricing allowing for just a couple thousand dollars margin to pay for my labor.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> ...I am giving this a good go in the next few months, and we'll see what happens. I am JUST starting some local advertising and plan to give an open lecture or two to see if there is a hidden market... Thing is, even if I had a backlog, I doubt I can physically put together more than 5 or 10 conversions at best per year, which still wouldn't provide much income given pricing allowing for just a couple thousand dollars margin to pay for my labor.


I've decided to test the waters as well. I ran a CL ad, and will be doing some other advertising and promotional stuff.

My real master plan is parts though. Conversions are to support that. Most of the top hot rod shops have something they make and sell because, truth is, even with six-figure projects, it's usually hard to really make a profit with custom services. Providing things people actually need is a more viable way to make money, providing "wants" means finding people who have the excess to afford it, and convincing them to pay enough for it. I've been tracking this little cottage industry for a few years now, and trying to find a product niche that has the ability to actually grow. Selling a couple dozen of some low-to-moderate margin product or service per year is a recipe for gray hair...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Selling a couple dozen of some low-to-moderate margin product or service per year is a recipe for gray hair...


I already have gray hair. 
perhaps with a couple good examples running around locally there will be more conversions and I can fill in with a little consulting or fabrication of plastic battery boxes, or some other piece that people need....


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## Wayne @electricblue (Aug 6, 2013)

Hi, Im new to this site, I own "electric blue auto conversions' in Walton Ks.
the question was, can any one make a living at conversions? Hell yes you can!. since 1974 I have done about 400 or more, I kept a good count since 2004 and have done 188 so far . I will convert anything I dont care what type of vehicle it is, I just finished a 90,000 lb aircraft tug,Its on my web site, www.ev-blue.com. The strangest car was a 77 caddy hearse . I also had to re-do 8 EVs from other shops last year that were done so bad it was a shame. I have pics of all of them, they shops are closed now, shoddy work gets to in the unemployment line real fast, and of course the people were over charged for the crap work that was done . I have 1 set price for ANY vehicle, then it goes up with add -ons . Im starting to get more calls from airports on TUGS and hope to end up in that area solely . I saw a post about "liabilities" .I have the customer agree that I only cover the conversion,,,nothing else, I have them sign it before I start...AND NEVER USE YOUR OWN MONEY !!! Have them send a deposit for all your parts,


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## Wayne @electricblue (Aug 6, 2013)

for Todd
the hot rod area is where I came from too, but in the late 60s, then moved on to restoring European classics in the Tampa Fla area. I did my fisrst EV conversion when the oil embargo was on in 74. 
I have done "hot rods" a 50 chevy P/U, a real nice 55 chevy 210, lots of room for batteries and those cars were very hollow, not has heavy as many people think.

I have sent cars to Canada, all over the US and Europe converted ,and even a few to the Caribbean Islands 
getting more power from an ICE is hard and expensive, in an EV, just stuff more cells/batteries in it . a well made controller will handle more than its rated for . I know, I have blown up some of Ryans controllers from EV source, He know what hes doing ,smart guy, knows his stuff but gear heads will never accept the EV as a real hot rod or race car, even if its quicker and faster


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Wayne @electricblue said:


> I have the customer agree that I only cover the conversion,,,nothing else, I have them sign it before I start...


this is very cool news.... first real success story I have heard from a conversion shop. You must have a solid approach and good list of suppliers to get everything on time and good costs.

Digging a little deeper....

q: do you have an actual 'liability/waranty release form' you use, or have you made it all this time on handshakes without lawsuits?

q: I am assuming you have switched over from lead to lithium for all new build. would you care to share your source for batteries?

q: do you design/fab your own tranny adaptors, or sub them out? retaining clutch/flywheel, or going clutchless.... I ask since this is a big chunk of conversion cost that COULD be reduced if you fab your own.

q: do you do much if any advertisement of services, or just rely on word of mouth at this point?


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## Wayne @electricblue (Aug 6, 2013)

baker, call me before 2 PM today, or when I get back on Wed, the 14th. I can answer all your questions. Its easier over the phone then all this e-mail. Wayne 
620-837-3244


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wayne @electricblue said:


> baker, call me... I can answer all your questions...


Then, come back here and share a brief summary with us!


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## Wayne @electricblue (Aug 6, 2013)

what do you need to know, I have some time to kill.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wayne @electricblue said:


> what do you need to know, I have some time to kill.


Same questions Dan asked:



dtbaker said:


> ...
> q: do you have an actual 'liability/waranty release form' you use, or have you made it all this time on handshakes without lawsuits?
> 
> q: I am assuming you have switched over from lead to lithium for all new build. would you care to share your source for batteries?
> ...




Plus, who is your market? Any specific demographic?

Thanks!


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## Wayne @electricblue (Aug 6, 2013)

I send e-mails before the car/truck/machine come to me, The mail states that I only guaranty the conversion, and only what the state of Kansas allows me on labor, 90 days, the other "bought " components are covered by manufactures warranties . I have them resign the e-mail, agreeing to this and have them send it back.
1. if I see a problem with ,brakes,axle seals, any trans leaks, suapension, I call them, tell them about it. If they done want me to fix it, I state that in their final billing that they refuses to have ME fix it... leaves me off the hook .
2. If I see springs wont carry the batteries, I tell them, same thing. They ALWAYS want the new springs
3. I use both LiOn-P4 and L/A . most people cant afford LiOn batts 
4. when the truck/car/machine is done they come here, we spend all day going over their vehicle, and I have them, after they drive it, sign their billing, ..they get a copy I keep a copy.
5. I tell them and show them a book I write with photos showing everything I have done, trouble shooting and repair, what is their responsibility ,where mine ends.
6. I have them sign a Doc, stating." After the vehicle leaves the builders shop, He is no longer responsible for the batteries"...and I tell them why ..I dont know if there going to keep them clean, fully charged, terminals tight , LiOn comes with a BMS. I show them how it works and repairs if needed 
7. I always keep in contact, send photos of every step, let them know Im working for them, it makes them feel better 
8. I make a full wiring diagram and put that in the "service book" I make up.
It even shows how to test controllers 

Hope this helps.... Its a small Niche area, we have to exchange info and make the system work for all of us ..and beat the car manufactures at their own game


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## Fortion (Sep 12, 2013)

A friend of mine is doing some conversions but he only does it as a side job and on demand.....he says that people often back out,when told the complications and the changes involved....


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

keep the thoughts and comments coming guys. 

I have not had any serious bites to buy either my Swift or Miata at retail price despite offer to finance/Lease. I've only advertised in local paper and craigslist so far because I want to build LOCAL business.

Next plan is to offer Lectures at local schools for science show.n.tell and perhaps evening Lectures to adults either at the local Community College, or a private venue just to give an 'intro to living with an Electric Car'.

I keep talking to people that are ALMOST ready, but not quite. Perhaps gasoline needs to hit $4/gallon first.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't get any bites from my CL ad. I've also not had any active interest in the EV & Hybrid Meetup scheduled in a couple weeks. People said they're coming, but no one has expressed any active interest in participating. I'm going to try to ramp up the promotion in the last week before it, and see if I can spur some interest - and keep that fresh in their minds. I was hoping to start to develop a self-sustaining community here and see if something more can develop from that.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I didn't get any bites from my CL ad. I've also not had any active interest in the EV & Hybrid Meetup scheduled in a couple weeks. People said they're coming, but no one has expressed any active interest in participating. I'm going to try to ramp up the promotion in the last week before it, and see if I can spur some interest - and keep that fresh in their minds. I was hoping to start to develop a self-sustaining community here and see if something more can develop from that.


yeah.... I've had lots of very interesting conversations outside hardware stores and at my health club, lots of interest, but no contracts yet. We have a local enviro weekly paper in NM called the GreenFire Times that I am going to have a feature article in; perhaps that will spark a little interest. (joke)


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

As it stands today, Im earning money from electric conversions, not much though it should get better.
Working on an EcoQuad bike and Id rather do that than sit in an office pushin a mouse around.

But Ive always had this concept of doing a TV show like Amp My Ride.
Instead of chrome wheels, monitors and painted flames there would be a slightly more scientific air where the math gets done, parts gets fabricated and designed real time and fitted and theres the big moment where it turns its first wheel under electrons.
Now thats where there would be money...TV shows


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> As it stands today, Im earning money from electric conversions, not much though it should get better.
> 
> But Ive always had this concept of doing a TV show like Amp My Ride.
> 
> Now thats where there would be money...TV shows


we could ask Jack how he does with EVTV ?! I think he might make *some*, but more from parts sales ?

I have yet to sell a conversion at a retail rate. Made a little with Lectures/Consulting, but not enough for a living.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

RIPPERTON said:


> ...But Ive always had this concept of doing a TV show like Amp My Ride.
> Instead of chrome wheels, monitors and painted flames there would be a slightly more scientific air where the math gets done, parts gets fabricated and designed real time and fitted and theres the big moment where it turns its first wheel under electrons.
> Now thats where there would be money...TV shows





dtbaker said:


> we could ask Jack how he does with EVTV ?! I think he might make *some*, but more from parts sales ?...


I don't know what the TV market is like in other countries, but the challenge in the U.S. is that the demographic that tunes in has little interest in the technical aspect. They are there to see the drama - the race against the clock and/or the infighting. I seriously considered angling that way when I closed my shop and moved to Columbus, and had a leg into it when we started filming the documentary for the Inhaler (with a professional video company), but the reality of becoming more entertainer than designer/developer bothered/still bothers me.

The viewing audience of people who really care about what's happening with the actual vehicles has never been enough to make the shows commercially viable, or even heavily influence the slant the producers put on the show.

YouTube presents the opportunity to roll your own, but you still have to sell advertising, which means you have to find a way to draw the numbers (in viewers). It's a fun idea to experiment with though.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I don't know what the TV market is like in other countries, but the challenge in the U.S. is that the demographic that tunes in has little interest in the technical aspect. They are there to see the drama - the race against the clock and/or the infighting. I seriously considered angling that way when I closed my shop and moved to Columbus, and had a leg into it when we started filming the documentary for the Inhaler (with a professional video company), but the reality of becoming more entertainer than designer/developer bothered/still bothers me.


I know what you mean...theres no way I could compete with Diggity Dave. 













toddshotrods said:


> The viewing audience of people who really care about what's happening with the actual vehicles has never been enough to make the shows commercially viable, or even heavily influence the slant the producers put on the show.


I really believe there is a "GEEK" demographic, I mean why are there so many engineering shows like Mighty Ships and Archeology shows like Time Team


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## fanimasuo (Dec 30, 2013)

I want to start one such service. Where can I get good workmen for this kind of work?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

fanimasuo said:


> I want to start one such service. Where can I get good workmen for this kind of work?


the first step would be to build one yourself, then try to sell it to see if you have a local market. Good Luck


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fanimasuo said:


> I want to start one such service. Where can I get good workmen for this kind of work?





dtbaker said:


> the first step would be to build one yourself, then try to sell it to see if you have a local market. Good Luck


Yup. Asking a question like that leads to the assumption that you have no or little experience in automotive service. I say that because automotive service techs are a dime a dozen - there's usually a high turnover rate, and lots of them floating around, looking for new or better work. You might want to get a job or intern or volunteer with a service shop to get a feel for the industry. It's a tough business, and this is a really small niche to try to carve a slice out of. Even if you build a nice EV, and people are knocking your door down to get one built, you still have to make a successful business case out of it, to hire a crew and open the doors.

Honestly, the best course is follow dtbaker's advice and build one, then another, and another - as a profitable hobby, and let demand guide you from there.


Funny that this thread resurfaces today. I just moved all of my stuff out of the community workshop and into storage. Now comes the process of answering the "_what now?_" question. I'm looking at Scrape and The Inhaler, in the storage unit, and in pics on my laptop, thinking about whether there is any viable business case with them, and electric propulsion, at the core. That is the million dollar question...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Funny that this thread resurfaces today.


indeed.... after months of NO offers on my Miata, I have a green light to build an EV for a client. She wanted a volvo, but they are ALL electronic automatic transmisssions which seem problematic to me. I have her talked into looking at vw Passats since they are available with manual trannys.

so, after almost a year, I may have a (first) build-to-suit client. In the meantime we have all seen at least 4 completed EVs up for sale here, some of which sold, but only at a fraction of parts cost..... not a good business opportunity quite yet I'd say.

I plan to start a lecture series next month, working with a local PV installer, to present information on the benefits of the PV-to-EV plan. Probably do a few lectures to adults, circulate thru local schools to guest lecture to science classes, and will be doing a volunteer build this semester at the local high school shop class..... not exactly a lucrative business plan.

maybe in another year or two, but by them the OEMs may have models available at reasonable prices making the DIY a very small niche probably just for hot-rodders and classic car conversions.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> indeed.... after months of NO offers on my Miata, I have a green light to build an EV for a client. She wanted a volvo, but they are ALL electronic automatic transmisssions which seem problematic to me. I have her talked into looking at vw Passats since they are available with manual trannys...


Congrats! You should see if anyone makes an aftermarket control module for the transmission. Companies like TCI make them for the American musclecar industry, someone might for the Volvo, or there could be a chance it's actually using and American transmission (or the "American" transmission is actually made by a foreign company that also makes Volvo's). It's worth a poke, because if she really loves Volvos, having that as a foundation can go a long way towards overall satisfaction in the end.






dtbaker said:


> ...maybe in another year or two, but by them the OEMs may have models available at reasonable prices making the DIY a very small niche probably just for hot-rodders and classic car conversions.


The problems are the OEM prices are going to continue to drop, more models will be available in a wide range of categories, and the used OEM EV market will grow. They're not holding value on par with their ICE counterparts, so convincing someone to do a pricey conversion over purchasing an off-lease EV with a warranty is going to be a tough sell.

The one niche they can't touch is that old car that the owner is in love with and wants it to be an EV, whether it makes sense financially or not. That is a pretty small pool at this point. All those production EVs flooding the market and changing public perception might help create more demand for it. For example, a BMW I3 purchaser who has a clean old 3-series in the garage, and starts thinking, "I wish my 3xx was this smooth and nice..."

I have wished for a few years now that some wealthy dude or dudette would ask me to convert a (real) Ferrari or Lambo, and give me the challenge and opportunity to design and develop a conversion that looks and feels like it was made that way. I actually have a partially formed plan for it, I just don't have the pennies in my piggy to prove it.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Congrats! You should see if anyone makes an aftermarket control module for the transmission. Companies like TCI make them for the American musclecar industry



I did find some for auto trannies like the powerglide that are popular for racing, but nothing for the Volvo. A volvo mechanic I talked to said there are just some solenoids, but I hesitate to jump into uncharted water that deep and doubt I could get 'smooth' shifts without various rpm/load feedback sensors involved.... over my head, so I'm sticking w manual conversions.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

rupertsilva10 said:


> You really need to study the market well as well as the nature of it and the things that are advisable and not before entering. In order to back you up a good manpower team is needed to ensure that everything will be highly organize in a manner that you want to run it.



wow, that was profound....

of course we are trying to figure out what the Market even IS, but that is pretty tough with a product that has no parallel or past history. This thread is basically serving as market research for people who are attempting.

The conclusion is at this particular point in time, the Market is not quite ready for Electric cars, although the Leaf and Tesla are starting to sell better, the DIY conversion market looks to be slow with eBay sales almost always at a loss. 

I just got my first build-to-suit client.... but without a backlog its not worth going out and renting commercial garage space, making it a garage business at best.

I do believe that there WILL be a market to support local DIY conversions in population centers of 100k or so, but its going to take some education, lectures, press, etc to 'sell' the idea for a while.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> wow, that was profound....


not bad for a spammer...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> wow, that was profound....





Ziggythewiz said:


> not bad for a spammer...


I was thinking it was a spammer too - they usually have nonsensical/obvious quips like that, or snippets out of another post in the thread. I haven't seen the username plastered all over random threads though? Maybe the mods got him already. 






dtbaker said:


> ...of course we are trying to figure out what the Market even IS...
> 
> ...I do believe that there WILL be a market to support local DIY conversions...


I really think the DIY "_money_" is going to be in retrofitting modern tech into older cars. Designing and installing better battery packs in used BEV and PHEV production vehicles; software and technology updates that allow those consumers to get more bang for the buck; and ripping the drivetrains out of wrecked/used production EVs/PHEVs and prepping them for use in an ICE conversion (I still think that will be the toughest row to hoe).

If you can take a Leaf control unit it, hack it, reprogram it, and complement that with better hardware, at a reasonable price point, you _might_ end up being in demand. If you can get certification that makes your upgrades legal, you would rule whatever tiny little market you serve. To wit, (ICE) supercar tuner Saleen is coming out with a tubed Model S...

My point is, a lot of us are old school, wrench-in-hand, types and the money is increasingly going to those with mouse-in-hand (tech/software). I started tinkering with CAD over a decade ago, got serious about it around five/six years ago, and have been steadily weighting the scales in that direction. Accordingly, people will gladly pay me $50 for CAD development services, but cough and choke at $50 per hour for fabrication services (I've been offered and laughed at $15 per hour quite a few times) - I think because modern culture has ingrained in people's brains that "tech" is more valuable.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> I was thinking it was a spammer too - they usually have nonsensical/obvious quips like that, or snippets out of another post in the thread. I haven't see the username plastered all over random threads though? Maybe the mods got him already.


Nearly every noob with a sig link is a spammer...real ppl don't even set that up for a while. Sometimes the sig link or pics they post get blocked though.


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