# Planning 04 Land Rover Discovery Conversion



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

100 mile range 75 mph? It would cost over 15K just for the batteries.

You need to do more research.


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

Ivansgarage said:


> 100 mile range 75 mph? It would cost over 15K just for the batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to do more research.



Okay then let's say the budget is 35k. I really just want to hear from someone who can recommend configs for suv's and shed a little experience on it for me.

Thanks


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Beewhy446 said:


> Okay then let's say the budget is 35k. I really just want to hear from someone who can recommend configs for suv's and shed a little experience on it for me.


Hi Bee,

Hub motors are not an option. Maybe something from these guys: http://uqm.com/products/full-electric/production/commercial-vehicles/ For a battery, maybe 32 ME350-049 EnerDels: http://www.ev-wholesale.com/Lithium-ion-battery_c3.htm Of course you'll need to electrify the auxillary systems. And you can regenerate through an automatic tranny, if you know what you're doing. 

There's a lot of choice in design approach. Not many here have done large SUVs which come close to your stated objectives. There are a few conversions like that out there, but those guys stick to themselves or have their own TV show 

I'm surprised Ivan didn't tell about Kevin in Topeka with a big AC motor auto trans big Chevy pick-up. Maybe he'll chime in with a link. Hopefully some other members will throw in some ideas,,,,hint, hint.

Regards,

major


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hi Major,

Thanks for the links. That certainly helps me spec out the type of motor I would need. 

Would love to see the big truck in Kansas. 

Thanks again!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Beewhy446 said:


> Hi Major,
> 
> Thanks for the links. That certainly helps me spec out the type of motor I would need.
> 
> ...


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66800&highlight=topeka I just did a forum search on topeka. Why didn't I think of that before


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

> I'm surprised Ivan didn't tell about Kevin in Topeka with a big AC motor auto trans big Chevy pick-up. Maybe he'll chime in with a link. Hopefully some other members will throw in some ideas,,,,hint, hint.


I think Ivan likes to be non predictable. Lol


You really need a transmission on a large/heavy vehicle, especially if it is going to be driving any kind of terrain that is not flat. You need gears in an EV for the same reason you need gears in an ICE vehicle, to get the best acceleration and speed over changing conditions. 

As Major said, automatic transmissions can work just fine if set up correctly.

Ivan is building a Sonoma with a 4L60 transmission. He eliminated the torque converter and has it directly driven. It still has all of the gears, it still shifts up and down automatically.

(It would if he would work on it and possibly finish it sometime this century)

This forum is the best place for you to be to learn and plan your EV build, welcome to the community.

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> You need gears in an EV for the same reason you need gears in an ICE vehicle...


I wonder why none of the OEM EVs use transmissions, Miz. But let's not hijack Bee's thread. Use a transmission if you want to.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Couldn't resist, could you.


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hijack away! I also wonder why none of the OEM electrics use a transmission?

But at any rate can someone tell me what's involved in mounting the motor to an auto transmission properly?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> I wonder why none of the OEM EVs use transmissions, Miz. But let's not hijack Bee's thread. Use a transmission if you want to.


Well, it helps to have more than 70-80hp peak if you want to skip the transmission... Even the runty Nissan Leaf has 110hp on tap.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Beewhy446 said:


> But at any rate can someone tell me what's involved in mounting the motor to an auto transmission properly?


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55509&highlight=adapter+plate

Here's an example I found with the forum search function.

And there have been frequent discussions over the years regarding the need for shifting transmissions. Bottom line is that it is easier for conversions to use them


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

That's a fantastic thread! Thanks for the link


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Beewhy446 said:


> Hijack away! I also wonder why none of the OEM electrics use a transmission?
> 
> But at any rate can someone tell me what's involved in mounting the motor to an auto transmission properly?


There is a simple answer for that, Most of OEM electric car are city cars (exception is Tesla Model S). Meaning that they have limited power requirements. Bigger OEM electric vehicles (Fuel cell buses) use often two motors with a planetary gearbox (summation gearbox with different ratios).
If you really want to convert the Landrover Discovery and you are able to control their Transmission (you must do that) you should keep it if possible. Then you could get away with a 40 KW (100 KW max) electric motor. The process of mounting a transmission to an electric motor is basicly the same as a gearbox without clutch (making an adapter-plate and connecting the shafts of motor and transmission).
But the Discovery is not the best car for conversion. If you take out their ECU, you will have to deal with their BCU and believe me that is not fun.


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

The thing is, my wife really loves the Land Rover discovery, and in my opinion the only way that car would ever be practical is if it's electric. It would really only be used for around town driving. But sometimes, our around town driving can be upwards of 75 miles since we will be driving all around the Charleston area. 

Can you expound on how the ECU comes into play? that's another area where my knowledge is a little bit shaky.

Thanks again


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Beewhy446 said:


> The thing is, my wife really loves the Land Rover discovery, and in my opinion the only way that car would ever be practical is if it's electric. It would really only be used for around town driving. But sometimes, our around town driving can be upwards of 75 miles since we will be driving all around the Charleston area.
> 
> Can you expound on how the ECU comes into play? that's another area where my knowledge is a little bit shaky.
> 
> Thanks again


Ok I do not want to discourage you but In my opinion ( and I certainly will disagree with a lot of british folk at least) a Landrover Discovery is a car which in my opinion will NEVER be practical. I could write an essay about why but lets leave that and agree on the point that it is a comfortable car to sit in until things get rough. 
I have never converted such a car to electric but we have serviced them after the owner was not able to repair them any more due to costs and limited knowledge of the (in some cases trained) service persons.
The problems where usually disfunction of one of the many units regarding the BCU (Body control unit) resulting not getting into the car without alarm, car not starting, battery level dropping certainly, disfunction of ATM (transmission), and disfunction of the (automatic) suspension system which is partly springs and partly air (compressors) supported by a liquid stability system. Most of this problems where related to a voltage drop of the 12V battery system and could be removed by just putting in a 1000Ah battery used for bulldozers but it still left some systems in undesirable condition.
Most normal cars we have used for conversion have their ECU (Engine control unit) connected directly with other parts of the vehicle (ABS/ESP, Airbag and ATM which are autark (selfcontained) systems connected by CAN-BUS. 
Some cars and the Discovery is one of those, have an additional control unit (BCU, body control unit for example) which maps some of the existing units together in a special logic group. For example in the Discovery, there is an extra lock in the fuel supply which only unlocks if security system is disabled with the appropriate key AND Transmission is set to P AND Key is in potion II of the starting switch. This logic is mapped in the BCU and results one relay to be put on "ON" which opens the fuel lock.
There are a lot of more things connected this way and problem with this logic is that some is in the ECU-software and some in the hardware. 
To steal the Discovery it is enough to fool the hardware (no problem) but to convert it, which involves removing the engine and usually the ECU you would have to map the BCU logic to your new control unit if you want to retain the original logic.
And this includes going through all the BCU/ECU logic in addition to only have to adapt the ATM (which is controlled by an extra computer).
But I will stop here and if you like I can list the point what to do to convert a "normal" car with ATM...


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

major said:


> I wonder why none of the OEM EVs use transmissions, Miz. But let's not hijack Bee's thread. Use a transmission if you want to.


I thought some of the OEMS just used a 1 speed fixed gearbox?
With an Electric Motors wide torque curve, they are able to dispense with multiple gears, although I do believe the early Telsa Roadsters did use a 2 speed gearbox, but dispensed with it shortly after initial production.


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## Beewhy446 (Dec 21, 2013)

gunnarhs said:


> And this includes going through all the BCU/ECU logic in addition to only have to adapt the ATM (which is controlled by an extra computer).
> But I will stop here and if you like I can list the point what to do to convert a "normal" car with ATM...



What exactly does the BCU control? Security system? Ignition? Could all of those things be bypassed by just disconnecting? I'm perfectly happy putting aftermarket amenities into the car to make things simpler if needed. 

On the ATM I have been told that you have to keep a minimum rpm in order for it to maintain hydraulic pressure. Does that require tweaking on the controller? What other ATM considerations are there? 

Thanks for all your help!


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Beewhy446 said:


> What exactly does the BCU control? Security system? Ignition? Could all of those things be bypassed by just disconnecting? I'm perfectly happy putting aftermarket amenities into the car to make things simpler if needed.
> 
> On the ATM I have been told that you have to keep a minimum rpm in order for it to maintain hydraulic pressure. Does that require tweaking on the controller? What other ATM considerations are there?
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


It depends on the vehicle, but in general, the Body Control Unit (BCU) or Body Control Module (BCM) can control things like door locks, windows, heaters, air cond, seats, lights etc etc

Some vehicles have an electric park brake. I've heard that what sometimes happens is after the car has been parked for an hour, one of the computer modules (not sure which one), will get the park brake to apply more brake force to compensate for the brakes cooling down and contracting. I'm not an expert on this, but this is something to think about as well.

With maintaining hydraulic pressure on the automatic transmission, it depends on the transmission, but in general, you could make the electric motor idle. I'm not sure which off the shelf motor controllers have this feature. However, making the electric motor idle will consume energy and reduce your range. 

Other things to think about are cruise control and any steep decent technology, EBD, Stability Control etc used in the vehicle. 

At the end of the day, it depends how tightly integrated these modules are with the car. You also have to know which wires to disconnect if you want to bypass things. Some wires could serve several purposes.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Beewhy446 said:


> What exactly does the BCU control? Security system? Ignition? Could all of those things be bypassed by just disconnecting? I'm perfectly happy putting aftermarket amenities into the car to make things simpler if needed.


Sorry for the late reply, for some reason I did not get the usual post when you answered (or I have missed it).
In the attachment here I have a two manuals for the BCU of the Landrover Discovery.
You can bypass a lot of functions by putting the relays (yellow ones in the front) on "ON" by applying a 12V voltage but you have to be careful when doing that. My advice is to use a simpler version of a Landrover instead (Defender for example). I also can send you a complete landrover workshop manual if you are interested (it does not explain the BCU-part very well though).
For typical problems I recommend www.landroverhell.com - website


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

Beewhy446 said:


> On the ATM I have been told that you have to keep a minimum rpm in order for it to maintain hydraulic pressure. Does that require tweaking on the controller? What other ATM considerations are there?


I only have experience with Suzuki ATM's, I like them because they are very autark (self-controlled) and easy to apply. I do not know Landrovers ATM.
So here is how the Suzuki ATM-works I have been using with AC-induction
1) Yes a minimal RPM has to been kept, 500 RPM is enough, motor is always on.
2) Your controller should let the motor produce the same curve as the original motor to start with. meaning providing same torque under same RPM as original motor. You start with that setup to begin with at least. So you need a controller with very flexible software. 
3) The ATM is simple. It is connected to a separate computer and the "stick" which uses P (parking), D (Driving forward), N (neutral) and R (reverse).
Your motor gives a certain RPM and if D is on and RPM over 1000 , 1. gear is connected.
The ATM-computer has input and output for motor RPM and output for Transaxle speed. 
You can also access the solenoids directly which switch gears, you would have to do that if you have a different speed/torque curve but t is easier to let the ATM/computer do the work for you.
4) The ATM is mechanically connected to the motor like a clutch-less connection to a normal gearbox (always connected).
5) Pro and cons using ATM over direct drive
Pros: 
Usage of smaller (less powerful) motor possible.
Very nice , smooth driving behavior when driving at very low speeds , for example when parking (especially compared to direct drive AC-induction).
You stay in a good RPM spectrum (important for AC-Induction efficiency).
Cons:
You need to keep the ATM-liquid (cooling) system and improve it. An additional 5% loss of total energy compared to direct drive (gearbox)
Regen does not really work unless you can lock the ATM-transaxle to motor axis when wheel-speed > Motor speed driving downhill (some ATM do allow that, other "coast", mean reducing connection fluid pressure).
Additional complexity as Motor has to be adapted to ATM, you can not exploit the best Electric Motor curve (efficiency). Usually a problem when converting a car but especially with ATM


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## Gra215 (5 mo ago)

People are afraid to convert the disco.. due to the frame rot that happens in rear and all together afraid.. many people have converted the defender and series models…. You will need to have frame repaired first.. having a great stable base is key.. next forget the talk about using river drive.. rip it all out down to the drive shafts and remove all gas items…next pick up a few minor parts such as the tesla large drive unit.16 tesla s or x packs. Go with the 100 pack set.. now for the fun part. The tesla motor will have to be done. Get a get set and limited slip diff for the unit and very important a reverse oil pump set.. and mount the unit where the transfer case was. You will need to have a universal joint set mad to the marry the river shaft to the tesla engine.. once you make that happen rest is easy. Build 2 battery boxes to hold the 16 packs.. front box holds 12 batterys and most of the electronics,, rear box where the fuel tank was holds 4 batterys.. now install all the electrical parts..but if you plan on doing a conversion research and get parts first.. it’s very important that you do that.. think of what you wanna do.. where you want to take and so on.. mine was needed to have range , I wanted to take on long trips and seats 7. Also tow capacity… mine has all of that.. 180 mile range, rapid charge ( very important), tows boat, and seats 7 no problems,, ohh yeah and off roads and has double hp of stock..lol


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## jstaczek (5 mo ago)

Beewhy446 said:


> The thing is, my wife really loves the Land Rover discovery, and in my opinion the only way that car would ever be practical is if it's electric. It would really only be used for around town driving. But sometimes, our around town driving can be upwards of 75 miles since we will be driving all around the Charleston area.
> 
> Can you expound on how the ECU comes into play? that's another area where my knowledge is a little bit shaky.
> 
> Thanks again


I'm reading this 9+ years later and my wife (and daughter) are saying the same thing. If I can electrify ours for driving just around the small island we live on, I would be a hero. How are Discovery EV projects going?! 

-- Jason


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## jstaczek (5 mo ago)

Gra215 said:


> People are afraid to convert the disco.. due to the frame rot that happens in rear and all together afraid.. many people have converted the defender and series models…. You will need to have frame repaired first.. having a great stable base is key.. next forget the talk about using river drive.. rip it all out down to the drive shafts and remove all gas items…next pick up a few minor parts such as the tesla large drive unit.16 tesla s or x packs. Go with the 100 pack set.. now for the fun part. The tesla motor will have to be done. Get a get set and limited slip diff for the unit and very important a reverse oil pump set.. and mount the unit where the transfer case was. You will need to have a universal joint set mad to the marry the river shaft to the tesla engine.. once you make that happen rest is easy. Build 2 battery boxes to hold the 16 packs.. front box holds 12 batterys and most of the electronics,, rear box where the fuel tank was holds 4 batterys.. now install all the electrical parts..but if you plan on doing a conversion research and get parts first.. it’s very important that you do that.. think of what you wanna do.. where you want to take and so on.. mine was needed to have range , I wanted to take on long trips and seats 7. Also tow capacity… mine has all of that.. 180 mile range, rapid charge ( very important), tows boat, and seats 7 no problems,, ohh yeah and off roads and has double hp of stock..lol


Gra215, are you actually driving an electric Discovery?


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## Rinat (2 mo ago)

3 years run Discovery EV 👍


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## losejav71 (2 mo ago)

Rinat said:


> 3 года пробега Discovery EV


What?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

Being I live in Norway, where production EVs are plentiful, the government has decided in their infinite wisdom to make it MORE difficult to get a conversion certified than a new car. But a Disco 2 conversion would still be a dream for me. I already have the perfect victim for it. There has been so much development on CAN hacking lately that I think this should be entirely possible now. The BCU in the Discovery 2 is REALLY annoying, so getting rid of that and just interfacing directly to the various things would in itself be worth the entire project. Would it be possible for Gra15 and Rinat to direct us to some resources on how they did their conversions? Please?


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

I already made a mental overview, estimating that the final weight with Tesla modules would be less than 100kg above stock, as the TD5, gearbox, transfer case, exhaust and diesel tank weighs easily 550kg. 244kg just for the engine. Unfortunately, the custom gear sets for Tesla and Leaf drive units I've seen so far all get you about 4.5:1 ratio, which together with a 3.54 diff gives a total ratio of 15.93:1. That's almost double that of the Leaf.

Since stock tires for my D2 is 235/70R16, that's 16.5% larger circumference than stock Leaf, so max speed about 60mph, MAYBE. If using the Leaf drivetrain. So I guess this is better solved with one of the Tesla drives.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

olegil said:


> Unfortunately, the custom gear sets for Tesla and Leaf drive units I've seen so far all get you about 4.5:1 ratio, which together with a 3.54 diff gives a total ratio of 15.93:1. That's almost double that of the Leaf.
> 
> Since stock tires for my D2 is 235/70R16, that's 16.5% larger circumference than stock Leaf, so max speed about 60mph, MAYBE. If using the Leaf drivetrain. So I guess this is better solved with one of the Tesla drives.


Tesla uses higher reduction ratios than used in the Nissan Leaf, because they turn the motor faster, and due to larger tire diameter. There is no reason to target Leaf gearing with a Tesla motor.

Where are you finding modified gearing for a Leaf transaxle?


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

brian_ said:


> Tesla uses higher reduction ratios than used in the Nissan Leaf, because they turn the motor faster, and due to larger tire diameter. There is no reason to target Leaf gearing with a Tesla motor.
> 
> Where are you finding modified gearing for a Leaf transaxle?


I wouldn't aim for leaf gearing with tesla motor, that makes no sense. Dunno how this can be confusing, they've been posted here several times: https://bratindustries.net/product/nissan-leaf-gearbox-replacement-gearset/

Compare with: Tesla Large Drive Unit 4.5:1 Reduction Gear Set, EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits

Unfortunately, 4.5:1 is still too high to work with 3.54:1 diffs.
The D2 is the first LR where EVERYTHING is electronic. Air suspension, hydraulic stabilizer, automatic transmission, over-zealous immobilizer, electric window/seats, traction control instead of LSD/diff lock. Electronic cruise control. Hill descent (applies brakes for you). Half of these things do not work at any given time. Probably more. One of my wheel sensor cables got worn through by the rubber boot of the axle, so I have no hill descent or traction control, and abs only works on 3 out of 4 wheels. Also cruise control stopped working, which MIGHT be related. Key fob receiver died, which is either bad contact or condensation on the receiver PCB. The joy. Since this is how it is to own a diesel, might as well diy an ev out of it...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

olegil said:


> I wouldn't aim for leaf gearing with tesla motor, that makes no sense. Dunno how this can be confusing, they've been posted here several times: https://bratindustries.net/product/nissan-leaf-gearbox-replacement-gearset/


I agree - it would make no sense - but you apparently thought that it did, which is why I commented:


olegil said:


> Unfortunately, the custom gear sets for Tesla and Leaf drive units I've seen so far all get you about 4.5:1 ratio, which together with a 3.54 diff gives a total ratio of 15.93:1. That's almost double that of the Leaf.


You compared the result of using the 4.5:1 Tesla gearset with the stock drive ratio of a Leaf.



olegil said:


> Dunno how this can be confusing, they've been posted here several times: https://bratindustries.net/product/nissan-leaf-gearbox-replacement-gearset/


I'm not confused. Please don't make the ridiculous assumption that everyone who participates in the forum and may be able to assist is familiar with the specific products that you are considering. In the future, I'll be sure to avoid any confusion by ignoring you and your project completely.


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

brian_ said:


> You compared the result of using the 4.5:1 Tesla gearset with the stock drive ratio of a Leaf.


No, I mentioned that both custom gear sets have roughly the same ratio, ending up entirely wrong at least for the leaf motor. The comparison with stock leaf ratio is to see if it's a reasonable setup for the max rpm of the leaf motor. Meaning I don't see how it's doable for the leaf motor. Sadly.

It might still be within reason for an LDU, though. But that's a whole different cost for parts.

So let me finish the numbers: 16ish:1 is 1.6 times tesla stock, wheels are 4.7% larger on stock D2 vs 2013 model S, so that's about 130km/h top speed before we consider resistances etc. This is of course reasonable.

I think the LDU is a bit too big to fit where the transfer case sits, but the Leaf unit would have fit perfectly. If it was more like 3:1 I think it would be perfect. From these numbers I see the rationale for bringing out a 4.5 ratio gearset for LDU, I just don't see how the one for the Leaf transaxle is useful, unless you're going off road.

Of course, if bigger wheels is an option, maybe the leaf unit is plausible as well. It's not like I would enjoy the ride in the car above 100km/h as it stands now


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

BTW, I'm sorry if I came across a bit too crass there, didn't mean to.

Another interesting thing is that the transfer case is exactly the "missing" 3.2:1 (in low) for a total ratio of 11.328:1, much more reasonable than 16:1. But that would mean interfacing directly to transfer and locking that in low. Without locking the diff, if that should be an option on the transfer case in question (it's confusing, actually, as only early and late model D2 had the linkage to do it, while mid year D2s did not. So 99, 2000, 2004 and some early 2001 has it). Hi is 1.2:1, not useful for an ev.


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## Sollypaul (1 mo ago)

major said:


> I wonder why none of the OEM EVs use transmissions, Miz. But let's not hijack Bee's thread. Use a transmission if you want to.


Hi Major-
you left a link for EnerDels wholesale 32ME350-049 Lith ion battery module...........the link does not work,,,do you know a resolution cause they sound interesting especially when 'wholesale' is associated with it,,,,,thanks
Sollypaul- Tesla/Nissan project W Oregon


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## floydr (Jun 21, 2021)

Sollypaul said:


> Hi Major-
> you left a link for EnerDels wholesale 32ME350-049 Lith ion battery module...........the link does not work


Nine years ago if you are talking about the links in this thread from major .
later floyd


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