# 1958 Vw bus panel- 1st EV conversion



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

*1957 Vw bus panel- 1st EV conversion*

Hi there, my Name is Jehu and I'd like to share my project with this community. I gave up driving about 5 years ago, I was able to do this because I started my own home business, it was great, but after a few years we outgrew the 700 sq ft we had set aside for the business and we had to move to a 2000 sq ft office. Luckily i was able to find a place a 1/4 mile away from my house, so I could just walk or ride my bike, but after a year, I find it really inconvenient and so now I've decided i need a car.

After 5 years of not paying attention to cars i find myself not knowing what car I like, and after some research I find that the only car that appeals to me is the Tesla Model S. So I read every piece of info out there, saw every video and even drove down to Santa Monica to see it. 
But I realized that realistically I would have to put down a deposit of at least $5K and I would have to wait about a year for delivery as they are behind schedule and they have only delivered around 400 cars and there are currently about 14 thousand pre-orders.

So, I cant wait that long, I will own a model S once lead times become more manageable. So in the mean time, I have purchased a 1958 VW bus panel, I realize its not the best candidate as it has practically the worlds least aerodynamic body, but where it lacks in efficiency it makes up in looks, style, and tons of room to put lots of batteries.



So I found this technical spec sheet on the van, and according to it the vehicle Curb weight is 2282 lbs


According to this Site The VW engine on this car is a 40 horsepower motor which weighed 208 lbs. 1 gallon of gasoline according to the Internets is around 7 pounds, so 15 gallons should weight 105 lbs plus say 20 lbs for the tank puts us at a total of 333 lbs of removed equipment.
So 2282-333= a new weight of 1949 lbs before installing any electric equipment.

*I'm contemplating going with one of the following 2 systems:*

AC-50 + Curtis 1238-7601 controller 
Peak HP	67
Peak TQ	110 ft lbs
Controller Weight	12lbs
Motor Weight	122lbs
96 Volt system
Price: $4300
Batteries: 32 of these for the 96 volt system at $44ea x 32= $1408 
3.3 lbs ea x 32 = 105.6 lbs
System Price $5708
System weight: 239 LBS

*Or* 

Impulse 9 Motor + Solitron Jr Controller
Peak HP	50
Peak TQ	77.4 ft lbs
Controller Weight	15lbs
Motor Weight	133lbs
Batteries: 144 Volt system
Price $1699 +$1999 = $3698
48 of these for the 144 volt system at $44ea x 48= $2112 
3.3 lbs ea x 48 = 158.4 lbs
System Price $5810
System weight: 306.4 LBS

So what do you guys think? Will either of these systems work well for this vehicle? Is the Battery too small for my 1/4 mile daily commute? I was thinking later making another 40AH or 60AH pack if I need more range.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Welcome to the forums!

Both of the systems you have lined out will do your job nicely.

I would increase the AC system by 2 cells for a total of 34. That helps with voltage sag and runs fine. 

The DC system will have a little more "Jump" than the AC system, but with the extra gearing of the bus, (The 4.88 axle ratio plus the reduction drop boxes the cars don't have) , The AC system might be a better overall driving experience.

Either way, it sounds like a fine project. At your slow commuting speed, aero will not really come into play.

If you can afford it, I would double the battery pack size to 80AH or 100AH cells though.

You will need additional items:

An adapter plate with hub (Keep the clutch)
a main contactor
a system switch
a system fuse
a smaller key switch relay
a charger
A dc/dc converter or aux 12VDC battery with charger to run the lights and things.
Fabricate battery boxes
A Mini BMS to protect your cells.

Do it. It will be cool.

Miz


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

What did you pay for the Bus?


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

1/4 miles range... Haha! You really need a car for that?



jehu said:


> Is the Battery too small for my 1/4 mile daily commute?


Theoretically, a 10-15 lbs battery can be enough for this small range requirement.

If you are fine with low power (35-45 hp), I suggest you a 72v system.
It's simplier, cost less, less dangerous and many common parts are available.
For example, a 550$ controller and 1100$ battery pack (75 lbs) can be enough to reach 45-55 mph with a range of 6-10 miles.

Like miz said, Do it. It will be cool.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> I would increase the AC system by 2 cells for a total of 34. That helps with voltage sag and runs fine.


Good to know, I didn't know about voltage sag



mizlplix said:


> The DC system will have a little more "Jump" than the AC system, but with the extra gearing of the bus, (The 4.88 axle ratio plus the reduction drop boxes the cars don't have) , The AC system might be a better overall driving experience.


Yeah those Darn Reduction boxes, I know VW guys have ways around them, I've heard they have aftermarket 1:1 replacement gears for them.

Also a 70's super beetle transmission could be purchased cheaply and installed using commercially available suspension plates, thus eliminating the extra gearing.



mizlplix said:


> At your slow commuting speed, aero will not really come into play.


1/4 mile will be my main drive but I eventually see myself driving around town, and I can even see myself jumping on the freeway to go to the local vw shows. This being my first project I want to keep it affordable, but I do want to get the right motor and controller to be able to expand later on by adding batteries.



mizlplix said:


> You will need additional items:
> An adapter plate with hub (Keep the clutch)
> a main contactor
> a system switch
> ...


I have already started looking for the little stuff like for example, I though these surplus Ammo boxes would make great Battery boxes, and at $40 bucks, I couldn't pass them by.





mizlplix said:


> What did you pay for the Bus?


Got a good deal paid $8K for it, No rust and most of the bodywork is already done, It just needed a seat and bumpers. It even came with a running motor but I gave that away, No more gas engines for me.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

love the car choice, looks like you are thinking it out well, but I'd personally say the 40ah cells will not be enough. Figure that at 3c you are at 120a, that will be extremely weak acceleration. And even at steady speeds of 40ish mph, you will be pulling higher than 1c currents which is not good for the cells.

I know some folks pull higher current from those cells, but since you are starting from scratch it makes more sense to design to a larger ah from the start.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

jehu said:


> I have already started looking for the little stuff like for example, I though these surplus Ammo boxes would make great Battery boxes, and at $40 bucks, I couldn't pass them by.


How heavy are those things? They might make your lithium pack feel more like lead.


----------



## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

dladd said:


> love the car choice, looks like you are thinking it out well, but I'd personally say the 40ah cells will not be enough. Figure that at 3c you are at 120a, that will be extremely weak acceleration. And even at steady speeds of 40ish mph, you will be pulling higher than 1c currents which is not good for the cells.
> 
> I know some folks pull higher current from those cells, but since you are starting from scratch it makes more sense to design to a larger ah from the start.


I have to agree with this. I have 60Ah batteries, and really wish I had gone with 80 or 100Ah. The kinder you are on your cells, the longer they will last.

BTW, one of my neighbors restores these types of vans, and once you get your system up and running, I'd love to show him the specs and pictures. Please keep a photo album going of the conversion!

Cheers! 
Peter


----------



## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I restore vw split buses too. Check out www.thesamba.com for technical information and classifieds. 

I would recommend keeping the reduction gearboxes and get up and running before deciding if they are a problem. I have never found them to be of much concern. If you intend to keep the stock look, it would be easier (and maybe cheaper) to switch to used late model "bignut" reduction gear boxes rather than switch out the gears.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The 67 Panel like I have has an unladen weight of 2359 Lbs and a Payload Capacity of 2205 lbs. You can use stock Bug Transmissions with the Bus nose cone and 68 or type III long axles and then lower the rear of the bus. Then you can buy drop spindles for the front and drop the front. The spaces between the frame under the cargo bed can be utilized for mounting many batteries and the fuel tank area can also hold a pretty health amount of cells. I'd go with an AC 75 and Curtis controller and I would go for at minimum 100ah cells. I am going to use 60 200 or maybe even 300 Ah cells for my Bus. I want it for distance and not speed. I am going to lower it. I actually used the transmission I was going to use in my bus and put it into my VW Roadster. I am using the stock gearing but have a 3.44:1 RP gear and it is a pro street setup. I am going to utilize a DC motor but thinking of using the AC-75 when it comes out but that would limit my voltage. I would rather have 192 volts over 120 volts. 

Pete 

I can help you if you need. It is after all a VW. I do think you paid too much for your ride. It it had been complete and running and no rust then $8k might be acceptable. I paid $3200 for mine. I do know busses sell high but beware that most that advertise them at high prices never sell them and keep them for years and years.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

http://greenev.zapto.org/GreenEV/GreenEV/Bus_Photos.html


This one is older but sort of what I am looking for in way of looks. Simple and Low.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Buses go for 6K-8K for fixer uppers and 10K for a decent driver(in my area).

Does yours have an old split case transaxle? Or has it been replaced?

I would do one if I could get a decent price on one. I had a '63 model. Wish I still had it.

Miz


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> How heavy are those things? They might make your lithium pack feel more like lead.


Yeah they look heavy but I was surprised when I bough them I was able to pick them up with little effort, I haven't thrown them on my scale but my guess would be under 20lbs



PThompson509 said:


> I have to agree with this. I have 60Ah batteries, and really wish I had gone with 80 or 100Ah. The kinder you are on your cells, the longer they will last.


yeah I agree with you guys, I will need a bigger battery pack its just I dont have the cash to buy 100AH battery pack right now, my though was to start with 40 amps to get it going right now, then a few months down the line get a 60AH pack, wire them parallel to make a 100AH pack.

Will that work? How does one wire 2 packs of different amperage together? like this?


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

That's not bad. My parents have some they use as medicine boxes that are about 10 lbs and the size of one car battery.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Buses go for 6K-8K for fixer uppers and 10K for a decent driver(in my area).
> 
> Does yours have an old split case transaxle? Or has it been replaced?
> 
> ...


Took me 5 years of hunting to get mine at a decent price. My last three were 13 window Deluxe models. Those are the best in my book. Solid top and gobbs of window space for excellent vision all around. They handle very very well when lowered. Mine is a standard because it is a 67 and it could be that the 58 is a split case but most have been changed. If not it could be sold off with the reduction gearboxes if it's planned on selling those items and lowering the bus. If not just keep the stock tranny and reduction gear box and drive in 3rd and 4th all the time and keep it at 55 to 60 mph tops. I plan on a quick ride but not drive it fast because it is a box. 

6k to 8k for a decent rust free Kombi would be about right if it was complete. Like I said before most of the Busses are way over priced for what they are. Most really don't sell them and if you do buy one for those prices you got suckered. Sorry but I have been doing busses for a very long time. A good decent 13 window could bring 8K if it is nearly rust free or rust free and needing paint and interior. But more than that and your a sucker. I can understand a whopping price for a fully restored 13 window fetching new car prices but most are rust buckets being pawned off to unsuspecting folks. I have seen some pretty crappy busses and I do go look all the time. Most are just garbage for a pile of rust. I don't BUY Buckets of RUST. Original or not. That original patina is just garbage too. Most people consider rusted as patina. Patina is not rust and never has been. It is faded original paint but not down to the metal. Also Logo busses are just garbage because you need to paint over them and destroy them to restore the ride. Unless of course your into driving around in piles of garbage. 

Most of what I find anymore has lots of hidden crap or the seller fails to tell you about some major damage until you arrive to look hoping to get the better of you while your there in person. It happens all the time. Most vehicles I pass. Some I buy with intent to resell. 

This is not uncommon.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

marklaken said:


> I restore vw split buses too. Check out www.thesamba.com for technical information and classifieds.
> 
> I would recommend keeping the reduction gearboxes and get up and running before deciding if they are a problem. I have never found them to be of much concern. If you intend to keep the stock look, it would be easier (and maybe cheaper) to switch to used late model "bignut" reduction gear boxes rather than switch out the gears.


The Samba is very cool, I have bough a few things there for the bus. Yeah good idea, get the car running first then decide if anything needs to be modified, the transmission looks stock small nut I think, looks like its in good shape.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> Buses go for 6K-8K for fixer uppers and 10K for a decent driver(in my area).
> 
> Does yours have an old split case transaxle? Or has it been replaced?
> 
> ...


In reality I only paid $6K as the owner did not have the title with him when we picked the car up, He said he would mail it to us in 2 weeks, so we agreed to pay the last $2K once he delivered the title to us, its been months now and nothing so Im not keeping my fingers crossed, I don't really need it to register the car here in California.

I've been going to VW shows lately and checking The Samba, and nothing under 5K turns out, usually rust buckets with lots and lots of metal work ahead of them, this one is very clean, its kind of amazing, the car came w a running engine and $500 worth of original Dove blue paint, 90% of the body work is done so it I though it was a good price .


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice. You have the original split tranny. I'd keep it and sell it and use a newer one when you can afford the change. It has no synkro for 1st. You can't downshift to first with these. So 6K. You here in California? Where? North? I am just north of Sacramento in Marysville. Happy to help. You might want to get that pink if you can. I'd try to get it for nothing more. I can't see your ride costing more than 6K at all. Original paint in cans? I'd say new paint mixed to original color specs. Not a bad thing unless it is old. Old paint may not be a good thing. The Samba has way too many busses and other things that are way over priced and many follow them to set a price but they do not realize that most never sell them at those overly bloated prices. I even saw one this evening that has been there for the past three years. Still for sale and still the same high price and looking worse. I do follow those I am interested in buying. I also hunt Craigs list. I no longer hunt Ebay. I do find parts for reasonable prices on the Samba.

Craigs list is the best but beware of scammers and look very very well at all corners of what you are looking for. Look everywhere if your looking at a VW ride. I almost always find crap that would warrant passing. Bubbles under the paint usually means rust from within coming out. So it is not a mile surface thing like most tell you. Bubbles means ROT has already started and rockers in a VW bug or Type III are a nasty repair. Not for the faint of heart. The bus is not so bad because you have no heater channels to deal with. Beware of rust under the windshield. If rust flakes it is ROT and needs removed and replaced. Even surface rust is usually pitted pretty bad on the VW's. Be careful. Many cover up that stuff with primer and say its ready for paint when it is not even close to being ready. Don't buy the bull. 

The Bus is an Excellent Choice in my book. Plenty of room. Plenty of cool factor and handles great when lowered. Can hold a pile of cells and still have plenty of room to use as a Panel Bus.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Keeping reduction boxes if you intend to keep it stock. Just makes for a granny first and pretty much useless second with electric but it will still haul a house if you need it to. The stock Bus with an engine will handle a full 1 ton load with no problem at all. Once lowered and you have the reduction boxes removed your load capacity will lessen only because your gearing is not suited for hauling a ton. The vehicle will still handle a ton. I don't intend to haul a ton of batteries but I could. I do want a 200 mile range. I have the room on board.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Keeping reduction boxes if you intend to keep it stock. Just makes for a granny first and pretty much useless second with electric but it will still haul a house if you need it to. The stock Bus with an engine will handle a full 1 ton load with no problem at all. Once lowered and you have the reduction boxes removed your load capacity will lessen only because your gearing is not suited for hauling a ton. The vehicle will still handle a ton. I don't intend to haul a ton of batteries but I could. I do want a 200 mile range. I have the room on board.


I cant wait to try it with stock transmission, Onegreenev, when is the AC-75 out? I couldn't really find info on it, What kind of battery pack would give you 200 mile range?

BTW I forgot to say my panel is a double door:


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> I cant wait to try it with stock transmission, Onegreenev, when is the AC-75 out? I couldn't really find info on it, What kind of battery pack would give you 200 mile range?
> 
> BTW I forgot to say my panel is a double door:


Not sure when the AC-75 will be out but I am hoping not much longer. It should be real soon. I was just thinking that a larger motor would be a bit better than the AC-50 which by the way would work for a Bus. Not super quick or fast but it would work. 

I am thinking of a pack of about 38kWh or 58kWh for that long range. It will be a whopping large pack at 58kWh but the 38kWh pack is easy to do. Going with a 58kWh pack may require some cells in the cargo area. It will be very expensive. 

So being a rarer double door and 58 I can see that the Bus cost you what you paid. It looks better with those pics. You planning on Safari windows? I have a set and I plan on the rear cargo window to be a flip up Safari too. I have a nice roof rack to go with mine.


----------



## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Price is always determined by what buyers are willing to pay. I think $6-$8k for straight running split bus is right in there with today's pricing for someone shopping online classifieds. Of course you can always hold out for that steal of a deal, or spend countless hours searching behind barns and following random leads, but the good deals are few and time is also money. Out here, I can't even find decent bay window deals online - I used to have to beat free bay buses off with a stick...


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

marklaken said:


> Price is always determined by what buyers are willing to pay. I think $6-$8k for straight running split bus is right in there with today's pricing for someone shopping online classifieds. Of course you can always hold out for that steal of a deal, or spend countless hours searching behind barns and following random leads, but the good deals are few and time is also money. Out here, I can't even find decent bay window deals online - I used to have to beat free bay buses off with a stick...


Well, yes and if your willing to pay bloated prices that is just fine. Come on over and by mine. I'd be happy to sell it to you for $8K. I'll even toss in a decent running performance 1600 engine. Built to race specs but only used in a street vehicle. 

Well actually not. My Bus is not for sale unless you pay $16k for it. This way I know it will never sell. 

Yes, it is wise to hold out because many actually jump on the first few so called deals and find out later there is damage that they did not see nor did the seller tell them about even though the seller knew full well of the issues. Don't be fooled by those that say as far as I know there is no other damage. I guarantee you that they DO know. I have been doing the VW thing for far too long and it is not just in the VW scene. Those 6K rust piles are full of hidden issues. Some actually look real good but have hidden issues and the seller does know most of the issues. 

As for me, I am quite happy to hunt and wait for a decent vehicle to come along. It is always frugal to do that. You rush into things you will get burned. 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Not sure when the AC-75 will be out but I am hoping not much longer. It should be real soon.


Wow! I just found out HPVS is located 5-10 minutes away from me!


And you are right the AC-75 motor is going to be released any day now, I read sometime in NOvember, http://hpevs.com/catalog-ac-75.htm

I just signed up for a test drive of one of their conversions!!


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You lucky Dog. I think the AC 75 is going to be a perfect match for the old split window bus and it will make the bus a spritely running beast. Not a race vehicle but quite spritely. I have driven two conversions with the AC-50 and they are very nice. Smooth, quiet and best of all they have regen braking. Being that they are a low voltage system it might be easy to stuff in 75 200ah cells and double them up so you have a 120 volt 400ah pack. That would be a solid 48kWh pack. Double what I have for my Leaf. It won't give me my 300 mile range but it will give me double what I get in my Leaf if not more. My Leaf is heavy. So a solid 140 miles at freeway speeds of 55 at least. Being I won't be running the reduction gearing I may even do better. With Calb CA 180ah cells that would give me a solid 43kWh pack and a pack that will breath easy no matter what my controller dishes out. Couple that with Fast DC/AC charging and I will be a happy camper. 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Going to check out HPEVS.Com installations in Ontario today! Will ask about AC-75 motor, Hopefully I can take some pictures so I can post them here. Yeah My conversion starts TODAY


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Alright here is what I found out,

Bill over at HPEVs is a pleasant, friendly and knowledgeable dude, he is also a VW fan, so we showed up on my brother's Daily driver 1966 double cab. 
So as far as the motors go they have the 
AC-50 wich I'm considering for my conversion but they also have the
AC-51 coming out next month If I remember correctly, its all the same except its designed and wound for 144V system, not sure what benefits with extra voltage so it seems I have some research ahead of me. 


I asked about the AC-75 and was told its due out next month in December, will retail somewhere around $5000, there will also be a the AC-76 which is the same just wound for 144 volts.


Bill tells me that Curtis Controllers are made in Puerto Rico, HPEVS writes custom software for their motors.


The Shop area is laid out with tons of motors at different stages of completion, its like a candy store.


Motors are hand wound in house and they have 4 mills cutting all the aluminum parts.


I wonder if they'll let me anodize the shiny motor aluminum ends JAG35 orange before assembling my motor?




I shot a video of the visit if you'd like to watch:


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Jehu,

Thanks for the video of the trip to HPEVS. You can find them at HPEVS.com Your video says HPVS but its HPEVS instead. Just thought I'd pitch in the proper address. Nice video and more inspiration for converting using the AC motors. I am not looking for a Hot Rod anyway. Just a nice cruiser. 

OH and I forgot to mention, Cool old Double Cab. My dream machine. I knew a guy out here years ago that traded a perfect condition Double Cab for a friggin little Bug. Ouch. He soon realized his mistake. 

Pete


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow really cool Jehu! Thanks for posting that. So they're hand wound, I wonder if HPEVS could custom wind a 75 frame for a higher voltage controller then? Might be an ideaor use with a Tritium, but then I'd imagine you might lose some of that torque of the AC-75 and Curtis combo, although you could have a higher rated RPm and up your ratios an run a fixed reduction ratio ie no gear changes.

sorry for thread-jacking. Just inspired by those great pics!


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

I have been researching a similar build for my 1974 vw transporter. I'm planning on the HPEV AC50 system with 180Ah CALB cells (36) to try to get 50 mile range at 45mph.
From what I have read on other VW bus type builds you can expect 350 - 400 Watt hours per mile performance. While the larger Ah cells cost $$$ more (the 180Ah/130Ah have been what I am considering) the life of the batteries should be longer due to the lower C rating at acceleration/freeway speeds.

Also, HPEV is coming out with 144v AC system soon...

I really like the use of the ammo boxes as battery boxes, should give a nice aesthetic when complete. 

Looking forward to seeing your build!


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

mapeairs said:


> I have been researching a similar build for my 1974 vw transporter. I'm planning on the HPEV AC50 system with 180Ah CALB cells (36) to try to get 50 mile range at 45mph.
> From what I have read on other VW bus type builds you can expect 350 - 400 Watt hours per mile performance. While the larger Ah cells cost $$$ more (the 180Ah/130Ah have been what I am considering) the life of the batteries should be longer due to the lower C rating at acceleration/freeway speeds.
> 
> Also, HPEV is coming out with 144v AC system soon...
> ...



The newer Busses do weigh quite a bit more than the better old ones.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

If you have not seen it yet I thought you might like to see this Bus.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> If you have not seen it yet I thought you might like to see this Bus.


Yeah thats an awesome bus, Do you know if the owner is a member on this forum I would love to chat about his conversion.

Meanwhile My conversion has stalled for a bit, I haven't quite saved enough to purchase the Motor-comtroller combo yet, so I'm doing some bodywork in the meantime. 
First I have discovered that this is not a '58 but a '57 model as the chassis number of 227xxx corresponds to Jan1957 build date, this is good news as I like the older ones, my dream bus would be a '55 deluxe, 
but thats big bucks! like $100K so for now my Double Door Panel will do.

The Previous owner had done some modifications to this car, the biggest one was the removal of the bulkhead, thats the wall that separates the front seat to the rest of the vehicle. 

Originally I had planed on welding a new one back in place to leave it stock once again, But i now have decided to finish the walkthrough conversion the PO started, 
So I started removing the half cut bulkheads so we can install freshly fabricated walkthrough ones. I shot a time-lapse video .
https://vimeo.com/53726866

I have also decided since its not going to be a stock vehicle anymore to go ahead and make it into what i really want, a deluxe double door walkthrough.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Ok, good news, My conversion is now back on track! Just ordered 28 90AH cells from here: http://balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=2736691&id=11924713








I decided to get the 90AH cells as they will almost perfectly fit in the 40"x10"x12" space the old gas tank used to occupy. Battery pack voltage 84-112volts, total weight should be 56lbs


There is also space on the sides of the engine compartment to add an additional 13 cells needed to upgrade to a 144v system



So as I understand, Later I can make another 90AH pack and wire it parallel to double the amperage to 180AH, my question is does it have to be cells of equal amperage or can they be any size like 40AH cells? 
The smaller cells will probably fit between the floor panels and the belly pans.

here in this picture you can see how much empty space there is under the floor panels, perfect for batteries.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

That is where I plan on putting my cells as well as in the fuel tank area. Remember that not all busses come with bottom cover panels. You can buy reproductions or build your own. It will be a good idea anyway as it will keep the bottom cleaner and smoother. Be sure you insulate those cells under the pan. You will be glad you did as those could get mighty cold in cold weather areas. Should be an easy thing to do. I also will be removing my floor in my bus to replace it but I will also have access panels to allow for cargo area access to those batteries. Also helps keep the Center of Gravity low where you want it. 

Pete


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

You will want to use batteries of the same Ah capacity. Different battery capacities in the same traction pack will complicate charging and discharging. 

Wiring the packs in parallel will increase the Ah rating but you want the packs to behave the same. The smaller parallel pack will have lower resistance and may burn out by drawing current too quickly. I recommend adding more 90Ah cells in series when the time comes. Adding 40 Ah cells will drastically reduce your system power due to the lower current capability of the cells. Watch out for the C rating of the batteries. The 90 Ah ones you linked are rated for <3C. You will want to be careful not to exceed 270 Amps for too long as it will reduce the life of the batteries unnecessarily. 
Similarly, if you add 40 Ah cells with the same <3C rating you will need to keep your current draw below 120 Amps. 

28 count 90 Ah cells in series:
28 cells x 3.2 V = 89.6 Volts nominal traction pack capacity
89.6 V x 270 Amps = 24.2 kW power output (at 3C rating of 90 Ah cells)

28 count 90 Ah cells + 13 count 40 Ah cells in series:
41 cells x 3.2 V = 131.2 Volts nominal traction pack capacity
131.2 V x 120 Amps = 15.7 kW power output (at 3C rating of 40 Ah cells)

41 count 90 Ah cells in series:
41 cells x 3.2 V = 131.2 Volts nominal traction pack capacity
131.2 V x 270 Amps = 35.4 kW power output (at 3C rating of 90 Ah cells)


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks for the info Mapeairs



mapeairs said:


> Different battery capacities in the same traction pack will complicate charging and discharging.


My plan was to have two separate traction packs, one with 28 90Ah cells, and another with 28 40Ah cells or whatever AH size that fits on available space on the floor section on my vehicle. 




mapeairs said:


> The smaller parallel pack will have lower resistance and may burn out by drawing current too quickly.


Will I run into these issues wiring the two drive packs like the diagram above?



mapeairs said:


> I recommend adding more 90Ah cells in series when the time comes.


I recently read somewhere that the Curtis controller will actually handle up to 130V So I was planning on buying another 10 or so cells and use as many as I can get away with on the 90Ah pack to have a fully charged pack just under 130volts.



mapeairs said:


> The 90 Ah ones you linked are rated for <3C. You will want to be careful not to exceed 270 Amps for too long as it will reduce the life of the batteries unnecessarily.


If I wire a second 90AH pack parallel, my capacity will increase to 180AH, Question is, will I be able safely double that 270 Amps max draw?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

You will always be limited to the smaller pack size. The 90AH cells would only be working half to match the lower 40AH pack. You would(in essence) have a large 40AH pack.

But if storage space is a problem, you can get two series strings of 40AH cells then parallel them and use them as one pack. It could parallel to the 90AH pack to give you an 80 AH large pack.

OR keep the 90AH pack and the twin 40AH strings separated by a A or B boat switch. You drive on one pack, then when you get low, switch to the other string. (A guaranteed way to get back home) Like a reserve battery switch.

Your choice.

Miz


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Miz,

A 90ah cell and a 40ah cell paralleled together would give you a 130ah cell. Put the output connections on the 90ah cell side and your not going to have any issues with the two different sized cells putting out more than the other to the motor. 

I am quite confident that if he uses a 90ah pack paralleled to a 40ah pack and puts his positive and negative connections to the 90ah pack he will be just fine. 

Putting a 90ah pack and a 40ah pack in series will only result in a 40ah pack. Not what you want to do.


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

My experiences have been different.

Good luck with your project.

Miz


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

mizlplix said:


> My experiences have been different.


Pete is correct. You can parallel different Ah capacity cells and their capacities will basically sum together. It is when you put cells in series that the cell with the lowest Ah capacity determines the *total* capacity of the pack.

Why this is so: the 40Ah cell can't be drained completely until the 90Ah cell is drained completely, otherwise charge from the 90Ah cell will flow into the 40Ah cell, preventing it from fully discharging. Since the charging efficiency of LFP cells is so high (98-99%) any charge that transfers into the 40Ah cell from the 90Ah cell will be usable by the load (ie - the motor controller).


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

jehu said:


> I recently read somewhere that the Curtis controller will actually handle up to 130V So I was planning on buying another 10 or so cells and use as many as I can get away with on the 90Ah pack to have a fully charged pack just under 130volts.


I have heard the same thing from evtv.me and a few other build threads using the HPEVs AC-50 set up. I have read of several packs using 36 or 38 LiFePO4 cells in series. The Curtis controller will apparently go up to 650 Amps at 130 V but is officially rated at either 96 V or 108 V depending on where I have read.



jehu said:


> If I wire a second 90AH pack parallel, my capacity will increase to 180AH, Question is, will I be able safely double that 270 Amps max draw?


I don't think it will matter if you parallel or series connect the batteries as far as storage capacity is concerned. Your traction pack will have the same kW capacity regardless of how it is wired. 

I think it is an interesting idea to parallel 2 packs of 90Ah cells; you would be able to draw 270 Amps out of each parallel pack. If you wire all the cells in series you are limited to the 3C of an individual battery cell. If you wire in parallel you should be able to run 540 Amps out of your traction pack to the controller. I haven't read of anyone doing this which gives me pause. I recommend discussing the idea on a battery/traction back thread to get some more experienced perspectives on it. At the very least I would think that you want each parallel pack to be the same number of cells to keep the system balanced and prevent pulling too much current from the smaller pack.
If you are going to use 90 Ah cells only (not the 40 Ah ones) then you can wire them in series and get a higher voltage system (up to the 130 V limitation of the controller). With the higher voltage battery pack, you get more power for the same current (you may not need to exceed 270 Amps if you are running 130 V).


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mizlplix said:


> keep the 90AH pack and the twin 40AH strings separated by a A or B boat switch. You drive on one pack, then when you get low, switch to the other string. (A guaranteed way to get back home) Like a reserve battery switch. Miz


Thats a cool idea, I was thinking I could always drive around with the 90AH battery pack and if I ever want to go on a long 300ish mile trip I can just load a extra pack.



Tesseract said:


> Pete is correct. You can parallel different Ah capacity cells and their capacities will basically sum together. It is when you put cells in series that the cell with the lowest Ah capacity determines the *total* capacity of the pack.


That is my understanding about how different sized cells would work, but i wanted to ask just incase someone had come across issues.

I will probably end up getting same sized 90AH cells in the end, Today I started cutting the floor panels so that I can get a better idea of just how many 90AH cells will fit down there, I guess at the end the entire pack doesn't have to fit down there, it would be nice though.


While I'm waiting for batteries and motor to show up I'm working on some body work, I've decided to modify some stuff to make this my dream Vw bus
1st: The oldest Vws used to have semaphores for turn signals instead of blinking lights, usually 1955 and older models but I've recently discovered that it used to be an option up to 1960 or so, VW had many available options and would build a car to your specs. So I bought some semaphores and i will install them on my bus so I have to cut, plug and patch the front lights. This will be my first attempt at welding.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Another question on batteries, I see a lot of packs like this: Wired xxPxxS
the one pictured looks like its a 2P16S 2 cells wired parallel and 16 wired in series









How is BMS dealth with? are the paralleled cell treated as one? Paralleled cells dont get unbalanced from each other?


----------



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The Curtis 1238R controller will run on 38 cells, but you will have some glitches.

First thing: 

You will get over voltage errors when the pack is just off the charger at 130VDC unless you let it set an hour or so to allow it to drop a little. 

It will give consistent Pre-charge errors until it drops to 127 volts (or so) at key-on time. The key can be cycled quickly off-on to clear that.

The non-adjustable pre-charge time is too short to fully charge the caps, so when the contactor is closed by the controller, there is some arcing, which will damage the contactor sooner or later. In my case it welded once.

Thereafter, you will always get a contactor resistance too high (across the points) error, until you replace it. (Then you will damage the new one)

I have read a notice from HPEV that they have received three 1238 controllers for repair in October that had been running 38 cells and were damaged and not functioning. 
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/hpevs-ac50-75603p10.html
*post # 98*

They recommended cutting back to 36 cells. I echo that as my 36 are running fine.

My $.02

Miz


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> are the paralleled cell treated as one? Paralleled cells dont get unbalanced from each other?


Correct.

Two packs of 90AH cells will do just fine or you can setup where you have 2p 36S and just have one pack equal to 180ah. 

I'd just have all the cells in the vehicle and being used as a single pack. Remember with the lithium you don't have to drain the pack before each charge. If you only drive 5 miles one day that is fine.

Does your Bus have a belly pan? You can remove the belly pan and do some fit testing without cutting your cargo floor. Oooops too late I see.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Remember when welding, tack on opposite sides and go slow. Don't just weld it shut. Tack it shut then grind smooth. Use gas with your little mig welder. Practice on some scrap before attempting to do your body. Be sure you have a good handle on your welder and it is set up for that metal. Get some scrap from another Bus if you can. It will be the same thickness and quality. Set up with that first. Go slow and have lots of patience. Let things cool so you don't warp things. When grinding smooth go slow too.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> That is where I plan on putting my cells as well as in the fuel tank area. Remember that not all busses come with bottom cover panels.
> Pete


Yeah all double door panels and all deluxe models had belly pans, so mine being a double door has them, in pretty good shape too, I thought about having access panels on the panels below but access to them would be so much more of a pain, so I've decided to go on top instead.


In other good news, I ordered another 5 cells to make that 33 cells total, Im hoping i can pick them up soon.
Ordered the AC-50 motor/controller, Bill over at HPEVs is putting my order together and i Also ordered a VW mounting plate and POT box both from Thunderstruck motors


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

jehu said:


> Yeah all double door panels and all deluxe models had belly pans, so mine being a double door has them, in pretty good shape too, I thought about having access panels on the panels below but access to them would be so much more of a pain, so I've decided to go on top instead.
> 
> 
> In other good news, I ordered another 5 cells to make that 33 cells total, Im hoping i can pick them up soon.
> Ordered the AC-50 motor/controller, Bill over at HPEVs is putting my order together and i Also ordered a VW mounting plate and POT box both from Thunderstruck motors


I did not know that all Double Doors came with the belly pans. See, you learn something almost every day. 

I was more referring that even though the bus may have had them when new they could be missing. I had one 13 Window deluxe that had the pans missing.

Since my cargo floor is not perfect I will also go in from the top for access. I need to build a solid belly pan so I can mount the cells and access from the top with hinged and pinned floors. 

Hows the welding? 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> I did not know that all Double Doors came with the belly pans. See, you learn something almost every day.
> 
> I was more referring that even though the bus may have had them when new they could be missing. I had one 13 Window deluxe that had the pans missing.
> 
> ...


Not sure if the 13 window is considered a deluxe, I know all 21 and 23 window and DD panels have belly pans. I finally got the first access cut out and its rough down there, no cancer but just lots and lots of surface rust, I think i will have to remove the bottom panels just sandblast the entire underside then weld them back up.


I've been getting some materials in, today I got a 24"x24" 20 Gauge sheet metal for patching and fabricating, its the right stuff so i will order more. Also the sandblasting abrasives showed up, so I build myself a containment tent so I can blast and clean all doors and anything small I can unbolt from the car.



As far as welding goes, Its definately not as easy as it seems, my first one turned into a mess, I need to get gas as the flux core wire its too hot for 20 gauge steel, its ok for small stuff like spot welding and repairing cuts like in the front shelf, but for long butt seems it think i will have to get me a tank of gas a thinner wire.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yes, the early 15 Window and later 13 Window Busses ARE Deluxe Busses. The Sky Light Windows and Sliding Rag Top are Add on Accessories special ordered from the factory. Many who purchased the Deluxe models did not order them with the sky lights and rag top. I actually prefer the the non sky light Deluxe Busses. But they are for sure Deluxe. If it is a 13 or 15 window it is a Deluxe. If it is an 11 window it is a Micro Bus or Kombi. Panels were converted to campers too. Kombi Busses were converted at Westfalia. Some Panels were converted to campers in the US after they were imported. 

As for welding, be sure both pieces to be joined are clean of any dirt, grease and paint on both sides if possible. For sure on the welded side. Any dirt can cause a piss poor weld. I agree with the gas if you can. I hate flux core. I am using gas and 25g wire. I ditched my old rusty 25g wire. Got some new clean wire. 

Does not look terrible after all those years under the floor. 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Been a busy week, called Balqon to track my batteries, they will be here some time this week. The AC-50 motor from HPEVS will also be ready soon, that means I am running out of time to finish all this body work, I purchased the missing bumpers and I bolted the front one on so I can weld the broken mounting brackets. I also started patching a big hole on the walkthrough section.


I also started working on fabricating the structures underneath the seats, I've never done metal work so its going slow.


I'm also learning Welding and I'm getting the hang of it. Also the first parts for the EV conversion arrived, the motor plate and the throttle box


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Ok this is turning out to be a good week! 
1st, sent out the motor plate to be anodized JAG35 orange, my company's color scheme.


2nd, My Balqon batteries have arrived, so we drove to Harbor City to pick them up.


3rd, The AC-50 motor/controller kit was also ready for me to pick up, First thing I did was try that motor plate on the motor, gotta make sure it fits. Also tried the 33 90AH batteries on the VW bus in the gas tank area, they fit pretty good. I eventually plan on running the system on 36 cells.


Also checked and I calculate that I will be able to place a second battery pack using same 90AH capacity cells under the floor panels, so the future range of my EV looks pretty decent with a total of 180AH battery pack at 130V, whats the kilowatt size of my pack then? not really sure how to figure that out.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

jehu said:


> Also checked and I calculate that I will be able to place a second battery pack using same 90AH capacity cells under the floor panels, so the future range of my EV looks pretty decent with a total of 180AH battery pack at 130V, whats the kilowatt size of my pack then? not really sure how to figure that out.


Looks good, though I'd suggest some tape over the battery terminals while you are handling them and moving them around near the metal chassis. 

For your pack size: 130v x 180Ah = 23.4kWh. At 80% you have 23.4 x .8 = 18.7kWh. Assuming 400Wh/mi, you should see somewhere around 18700Wh / 400Wh/mi = 47 mile range to 80% discharged.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

dladd said:


> Looks good, though I'd suggest some tape over the battery terminals while you are handling them and moving them around near the metal chassis.
> 
> For your pack size: 130v x 180Ah = 23.4kWh. At 80% you have 23.4 x .8 = 18.7kWh. Assuming 400Wh/mi, you should see somewhere around 18700Wh / 400Wh/mi = 47 mile range to 80% discharged.


Good Idea on the tape, dont want see sparks flying!
Thanks for Showing me how to figure kwh size, so if my vehicle runs 1 mile on 400 watts, I'll roughly get 25 miles out of this pack, since I only have 90AH pack for now. 

On another note, Here is a list detailing expenses on this conversion project: 
1- '62 VW DD panel not suited due to historical value = $3500
2- '57 VW DD panel = $6000
3- Original bench seat = $500
4- Walk through seats = $600
5- Front & rear bumpers = $1200
6- 2 sets of Semaphores = $500
7- Rear corner windows = $500
8- side corner sections = $200
9- Deluxe Cargo doors = $400
10- front floor repair panels =$200
11- Repair Sheet metal = $300
12- 33 90AH cells = $3300
13- AC50/Curtis Motor controller kit = $4850
14- Motor plate = $600
15- plus other odds and ends =$300

Total spent = $22,900 

Ouch! No wonder I find myself with very tight budget for remainder EV parts needed, Mainly a battery charger and a bms system.

I will recoup some money once I sell all the un-needed parts:
1- '62 VW DD panel not suited due to historical value = $3500
3- Original bench seat = $500
6- 1 sets of Semaphores = $250
9- Deluxe Cargo doors = $400

About $4500, just enough to finish the vehicle I think.

I was thinking of buying this DIY open source charger kit http://www.emotorwerks.com/emw3/product/complete-charger-component-kit-no-enclosure/ Anyone have any experience using this charger?

I also had this idea for monitoring the cells while I decide what BMS system to use. $3 on ebay ebay it should make for a convenient way to keep an eye on individual cell voltage


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I like the idea of a volt meter per cell but would recommend using LCD type units instead of LED units. The difference in power draw is substantial. Many non backlit LCD meters draw less than 1 milliamp (check though, some draw more.) Most of the LED meters draw around 50 milliamps.


----------



## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

EVfun said:


> I like the idea of a volt meter per cell but would recommend using LCD type units instead of LED units. The difference in power draw is substantial. Many non backlit LCD meters draw less than 1 milliamp (check though, some draw more.) Most of the LED meters draw around 50 milliamps.


Yup, that's a good idea. Also note that your batteries are going to be hidden away somewhere and you won't be able to easily see all of them. A good BMS will allow you to remotely determine the state of each battery, and that will become very important later on when "something odd is happening". As I have found out.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Jehu,

I don't want to start the infamous BMS debate but have you considered not using one?


----------



## PThompson509 (Jul 9, 2009)

skooler said:


> Hi Jehu,
> 
> I don't want to start the infamous BMS debate but have you considered not using one?


LOL - too late.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

skooler said:


> Hi Jehu,
> 
> I don't want to start the infamous BMS debate but have you considered not using one?


I have, In fact I will have to start without one as I wont have the cash to purchase one at first. From what I can tell the only danger is Overcharging and over Discharging when a cell becomes out of balance, so the magic is in keeping the pack balanced. This is how I plan on running without a BMS at first :



Each cell will have a meter displaying voltage, on the cars instrument panel I will have 3 displays, the center one will display total pack voltage, the left and right meters will display half of the battery pack. If left and right match then all is good, if they dont then something is off and checking the individual cell meter is in order.




PThompson509 said:


> Yup, that's a good idea. Also note that your batteries are going to be hidden away somewhere and you won't be able to easily see all of them. A good BMS will allow you to remotely determine the state of each battery, and that will become very important later on when "something odd is happening". As I have found out.


Very True, but there is no reason why I couldn't wire all the displays in a grid and install them in a visible place in the engine compartment. In fact if I were to place 36 of these displays together it would only take 6"x8" footprint, sort of like this:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Been busy Welding, cutting, patching, grinding and more grinding, lots of body work, here is a timelapse video of all the work I've done so far:

https://vimeo.com/53726866


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

jehu said:


> Been busy Welding, cutting, patching, grinding and more grinding, lots of body work, here is a timelapse video of all the work I've done so far:
> 
> https://vimeo.com/53726866


Nice work on your Bus. Can't wait to see your final results. Mine just sits waiting and waiting and waiting. 

Pete


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

What is the length of the assembled AC-50 motor assembly with the motor adapter attached? Is that the Thunderstruck Motors adapter? 

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/vw-adapter-kit.html

Thanks!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mapeairs said:


> What is the length of the assembled AC-50 motor assembly with the motor adapter attached? Is that the Thunderstruck Motors adapter?
> 
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/vw-adapter-kit.html
> 
> Thanks!


yes its the thunderstruck-ev.com adapter plate, the plate/motor combo measures 17" long


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

more body work



Roof installation Video
http://youtu.be/gspoT6b_IBI


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

jehu said:


> more body work


Impressive. Lots of work. It's looking very nice. I've always wanted one of those buses.


----------



## Tom (Mar 26, 2008)

Absolutely beautiful work! This is my fantasy build.
More videos when you can, please.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Oh Man,

This has got to be my favourite project on here at present. I've always loved old VW's. I've got a '54 oval beetle at home, but have always hankered after a samba.

Building your own 23 window from a panel van is just... fantastic work! 

Are you going to deck it out with the Deluxe Samba trim to match when you're done?


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Alright Its been a while since ive posted here, I have been busy doing lots of body work so not so much EV related stuff, I've been posting all of that work here if you are interested: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=539140

So now i am in the process of assembling everything before painting, Last week i got delivery of the http://www.eMotorWerks.com Open source Battery charger, I decided to get the kit and put it together myself, I must say assembling it is turning out to be much harder than i thought. Here is where Im at with the build:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm not done, i'm currently waiting for some resistors that where missing and the thermal paste that goes between all the components that attach to the heat sink, then the testing begins


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is how the bus sits now:

Started fitting the batteries right away





Balancing leads





Felt my first DC shock, about 32V so nothing serious

this is my DC to DC , rated at 50A will that be enough?


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

jehu said:


>


It looks like you've suspended the Curtis controller on top of acrylic or polycarbonate "ribs". If so, you are going to have problems with the controller overheating, as it has little intrinsic heat-dissipation capability of its own. Unless you only plan on driving the car 1 mile at a time, and at residential neighborhood speeds, you really need to bolt the controller to some form of heatsink, either a typical finned aluminum job with a couple of fans or, better yet, a liquid-cooled chill plate type system.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I was going to say the same thing when I saw the picture. Where is the chill plate to cool the controller?


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow! You are moving right along on the conversion, looks great!

Looks like a tight fit for the AC-50 in the engine compartment, how much room do you have between the rear of the motor and the body of the car?

I'm planning on using the AC-75 for my bus, which is a few inches longer, and starting to get a little worried.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mapeairs said:


> Wow! You are moving right along on the conversion, looks great!
> 
> Looks like a tight fit for the AC-50 in the engine compartment, how much room do you have between the rear of the motor and the body of the car?
> 
> I'm planning on using the AC-75 for my bus, which is a few inches longer, and starting to get a little worried.


Yeah there is not much room in there, maybe 1/8", fitting the AC-75 motor might require some mods to the apron or, to the adapter plate between the motor and transmission, I can see a few ways to cut a few inches out of there.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

jehu said:


> Yeah there is not much room in there, maybe 1/8", fitting the AC-75 motor might require some mods to the apron or, to the adapter plate between the motor and transmission, I can see a few ways to cut a few inches out of there.


The AC-75 is longer than the Warp9 and you need to cut to make those fit. You will need to cut for the AC-75. But there should be plenty of room so the motor should not stick out the back. So if you can buy yourself another removable apron so you can cut that one. Nice thing about the bus is the removable apron. Makes installing and removing a piece of cake. 

Not sure what I am going to put in my Bus. I have an 11" for my Bug and getting an AC-75 for my 914. 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Here I go thinking I'm smart again, this time its costing me!

Ok first the not so bad news, My bus moves now!
I finished installing all the equipment, except for the Dc-dc I got a defective unit I will have to return it, but I installed a regular 12V car battery for now. 
I checked all 33 cells for initial SOC, almost all where 3.3v, two or three of them where 3.2 so pretty balanced, I am going to go with bottom balancing so I figured I'd run some tests and run the batteries down to around 2.7v so can balance them and then charge them up for the first time. So i took it out around my street, had to adjust my steering and a bunch of other things, at this point i've touched and removed every single bolt on this car so everything needs adjustment, my pack voltage showed 108.5v 

Yup so after a few minutes my controller temp got up to 89C and then it got all weak, so i decided to temporarily zip tie this 12v fan to the controller and see how it would do

More driving around my neighborhood, the fan seems to work it kept the temp down to 70C but i couldnt really finish testing as I noticed my pack voltage drastically sagging on take off, checked the batteries, 2 of them completely dead! what? #26 and #30 doubled checked at the actual cell posts, yup dead

You can physically see the problem cells, the swelled up.

Took them of the pack, bummer why did these two cells just died? the rest of the cells are all around 3.00v

So im down to 31 cells, good thing is I ordered extras on a second shipment i'm currently waiting for. waiting 6 weeks sucks!



Most of the remaining cells are 3.00v, a couple of them read 2.7 so I'm charging them to match the rest of the pack, using a 12v charger with 10ah power regulator set at 4.00v, around 10 mins of charge was showing 3.00v on the lower cells



I am done building my 10kw charger, I struggled following the instructions, At times i felt it was beyond my abilities, but eventually everything started making sense. 
I am now on the software side of things, now this I am really lost, never done any of this, so i'm reading and watching videos on how to load stuff into Arduino boards, first my mac did not have drivers to connect to it using usb, read up, found them, installed them, then you have to choose the right board out of a list, had to find out which board the charger uses, done. I couldnt get the board to accept a simple sample code to make the lights blink, shows error after error, then finally it worked. But now it wont accept the software to run the charger, it shows errors, thats where im stuck right now, hopefully not for long


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

> almost all where 3.3v, two or three of them where 3.2 so pretty balanced


This is not correct, your cells are not balanced. On part of the charge curve you should barely see a difference in voltage. You should only ever balance cells at the top or bottom of the charge curve.

What are the small wires coming from the cells for? What are they attached to? 

I see they are not fused, that is asking for trouble!!!!!

You say you plan on bottom balancing? I suggest reading the below thread

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/bottom-balancing-85458.html

Sorry to be blunt.

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Had a great response over the weekend at the OCTO and Classic shows. Talked to a bunch of people and pretty much everyone was nice to me, no haters showed up.








Here are a few pictures I took after the show


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

jehu said:


> Here I go thinking I'm smart again, this time its costing me!
> 
> Ok first the not so bad news, My bus moves now!
> I finished installing all the equipment, except for the Dc-dc I got a defective unit I will have to return it, but I installed a regular 12V car battery for now.
> I checked all 33 cells for initial SOC, almost all where 3.3v, two or three of them where 3.2 so pretty balanced, I am going to go with bottom balancing so I figured I'd run some tests and run the batteries down to around 2.7v so can balance them and then charge them up for the first time.


Ouch. For most of the cell capacity the no-load voltage would be between 3.27 and 3.31 volts. I suspect that when your voltage went soft what was actually happening is that these cells where going from <2 volt to reversed. Any cells that where a 1/10th volt below the rest out of the box are likely to have been bad anyway. My yellow Thunder Sky batteries where all within 1/100th of a volt new.

That bus is nice and your conversion work is beautiful. I'm confident you will get everything sorted out.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

So I need help dumping code into a Pro Mini 5v Arduino Board, does anyone out there have any experience and would be willing to help me out? please send me a PM


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Way nice. Love that view from the rear with all the open windows and top. Yup, rattles like a Bus. Get some good sound deadening stuff in there and get some new seals around those cargo doors. Should quiet it down a bunch. Nice performance too. Looks from that video to be better than stock for sure. And I love the job you did placing the cells in the floor. Perfect. 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

VWTV interviewed me at the OCTO


----------



## Tom (Mar 26, 2008)

Absolutely amazing work.
Great work on the video, too!

Thanks for posting Jehu!

tom in maine


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

jehu said:


> VWTV interviewed me at the OCTO


Love the Bus. Love that you converted it not only to electric but a 23 Window no less and walk through. What color are you going to paint your ride when you get to that point? How does the AC-50 feel in the Bus? You planning on sound deadening material in the Bus? 

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Love the Bus. Love that you converted it not only to electric but a 23 Window no less and walk through. What color are you going to paint your ride when you get to that point? How does the AC-50 feel in the Bus? You planning on sound deadening material in the Bus?
> 
> Pete


I wanted to stand out with my conversion to shed light on the whole EV thing, all the sports cars have been done so the only way was to use a rare and expensive car, and it turns out great as this particular vehicle benefits the most out of an EV conversion as they are slow, noisy and slow! 

I'm not trying to fool anyone, this is a commercial panel that is now a passenger deluxe samba so in honor of its original life I'm goin to paint it Dove Blue, the AC-50 will do fine Im sure I still haven't fully tested and tune it just like I want it, It's really smooth at start up, I wanna give it a little more jump off the start but it's kind of scary with the stock brakes I think disk brakes will be needed sooner than later.

I have a bunch of that fatmat stuff I plan on installing. It's going to be the quietest bus ou there by the time I'm done with it.


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

Do you have the AC50 regeneration controlled by a pressure transducer on the brake hydraulic line similar to the evtv.me guys use on their speedster conversions? That may give you the extra braking you want and juice up your pack at the same time. Should be cheaper upgrade than the disc brakes.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Rear brakes should be fine with the AC motor and regen but I'd still convert the fronts to disc brakes. I'd get some good ones and you might look into what the guys from http://airkewld.com have to offer. Might consider the TypeIII rear drums. I believe they are larger than the Bus brakes but only if you remove the reduction boxes. I don't believe you can convert to TypeIII drums in the rear and still keep your reduction boxes.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

mapeairs said:


> Do you have the AC50 regeneration controlled by a pressure transducer on the brake hydraulic line similar to the evtv.me guys use on their speedster conversions? That may give you the extra braking you want and juice up your pack at the same time. Should be cheaper upgrade than the disc brakes.


No transducer, I havent looked into what I need for that, like i said the bus has not really been tuned and tested other than a few runs around the block, I need to finish up the charger so I can charge the batteries and further tune the rest of the system


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Picked up my second battery pack today


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

You may be planning on doing this, but in case you are not, I will mention that you should consider some non conducting material between your battery posts and any metal nearby. Even if your batteries are going to be strapped in, a little electrical insulation in the right places would prevent arc welding your batteries to the sheet metal in the case of an accident or crash stop. 

Your build looks great.


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

BTW, I saw your video on EVTV and I didn't realize that you had completely rebuilt the body on that bus. That is really a great project. Wish I were going to EVCON.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is EVTV.me talking a little about my build after I sent him a video 
Here is the edited version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW9plw4BKYo&feature=youtu.be 

Or the full Episode http://media3.ev-tv.me/news070513-1280.mov


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm on my way to EVccon, currently about cross the Texas/Arkansas border


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Jehu, 

Enjoy the convention. It's a load of fun and lots to learn.

Pete


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

One of the most fun weeks I've ever had, if you guys haven't seen this weeks evtv episode check it out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh2ES31sxIQ&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

LOL
I loved the parody of Jack and Brian, including the big glass of cola.


----------



## marc02228 (Jan 15, 2011)

Ampster said:


> LOL
> I loved the parody of Jack and Brian, including the big glass of cola.


+1
haha, he did even better


----------



## jk1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

*Re: 1957 Vw bus panel- 1st EV conversion*



jehu said:


> So what do you guys think? Will either of these systems work well for this vehicle? Is the Battery too small for my 1/4 mile daily commute? I was thinking later making another 40AH or 60AH pack if I need more range.


Personally, I'd walk or ride the 1/4 mile to work. The pack capacity is plenty for a short trip of a few miles but the pack power output falls far short of the motor/controller capability. That first 96V pack will be hard pushed to make 12kW which will probably mean reduced vehicle performance. You might as well size the pack so you can at least use the vehicle for a few miles when you need it rather than building it for a trip where a walking would be more appropriate. The 144V pack pushed hard will probably give you a bit more performance than the asthmatic VW lump.

<edit> I see you did go with a bigger pack, much bigger. Cracking conversion!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Alright, been working on some videos lately.

first 90 sec spot for the 2014 EVCcon 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDI4Io48CGM


#3 on the overall restoration/conversion project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n4k4CDNCJI


and finally EVTV is turning into a legit TV show production! 
http://youtu.be/xEBKpJCjk-I


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

*Re: 1957 Vw bus panel- 1st EV conversion*



electriccars101 said:


> Any product from Tesla is a nice choice. This brand is already proven to be one of the best. The weight that you allotted for your equipment is below the average. If you are already contented with the power that it gives, you can stick to it. However, if you invest on the heavier ones, you can enjoy a totally more powerful engine performance.


Another nonsense post from you. I'm detecting the pungent odor of spam...


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

I thought something fishy was going on too!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Latest update :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W_ty3DEaMA


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Sweet update. Thanks a bunch. Nice to have a little show now and then. 

Pete


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Great build Jehu! What speed causes over heating? What is the acceleration like?


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Sweet update. Thanks a bunch. Nice to have a little show now and then.
> 
> Pete


thanks Pete.




tylerwatts said:


> Great build Jehu! What speed causes over heating? What is the acceleration like?


Any speed will eventually heat up, 85 deg C is usually when it starts cutting back, Once I get my cooling flowing reliably all my cooling woes should go away.
Speed? i've done 85mph, feels pretty harry, gotta tighten up my steering, only then will i attempt to hit 100mph 
Acceleration? its pretty sprinty, most VW people say they've never felt acceleration like this on any vw, its probably able to do 0-60 in 9 sec i need to time it.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> its probably able to do 0-60 in 9 sec i need to time it.


 Thats pretty spritely for any of the old air cooled VW's. Kudos on that. Your steering needs to be nice n tight. I have driven a few for many years. I had a lowered one for a few years. They handle nice once you get used to sitting over the front wheels. Feels weird. I still had the reduction gear boxes on mine. Do you still have the reduction gear boxes on your bus? 

Pete


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Wow 100mph! Thought 75mph was ambitious for a bus... very good! I imagine windows, alignment and good hard tyres will see unnoticed range but also reduce cruise power so over heat the controller less. It's going well!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

New Update:


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice addition there Jehu. Nice that they tuned the controller for you too. I am assuming you are still using some throttle off regen but not much or are you totally just brake regen? Still very impressed at what the AC-50 can do for your Bus. 


Pete


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Isnt it cool how we were both working on regen transducers at the same time on opposite sides of the planet.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Jehu you should retap a tapered thread into that T piece for proper sealing.
Being Euro it would be an M10x1 which is close to an NPT.
And yeah $50 for a reducer....wtf.
My ZX14 master cylinder had an M10x1.25 and I got a 1/8 NPT in there ok.

T'ing your transducer into your brake line means you never get pure regen and you are wasting some kinetic energy into your brake drums but in your case its probably the safest solution. Its like adding a vacuum booster.


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

I don't know if the bus layout would accomodate this but what I did in my bug may be if interest. I didn't use a transducer, but instead connected a second pot to the brake pedal. The freeplay of the pedal moves the brake pot more than half of its range and I get great regen without having to use any brake pads. I also don't have wasted kinetic energy.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I don't see where it would be a problem. Connected into the brake line or off the master cylinder. Still uses the hydraulic pressure. The brake pedal can move plenty and give plenty of pressure for the sensor to give nearly full regen before you actually start using your mechanical brakes. Having both the regen and mechanical working at the same time is not a BAD thing.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> The brake pedal can move plenty and give plenty of pressure for the sensor to give nearly full regen before you actually start using your mechanical brakes. Having both the regen and mechanical working at the same time is not a BAD thing.


Yes but what you want is total safety and redundancy.
What might happen if you rely solely on regen for braking is the controller might sense and overamp and trip out the regen function then you go straight ahead no brakes. What would be ideal is to have the regen and friction brake on the same pedal so the first 1/3 of pedal travel is regen then the friction takes over. If the regen trips out you just keep pushing the pedal further down and your safe in split second reaction time.
So you get the best of both worlds, pure 100 kinetic energy recovery and fail safe friction in case of a trip out so Ampster's method would be ideal


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> What would be ideal is to have the regen and friction brake on the same pedal so the first 1/3 of pedal travel is regen then the friction takes over.


This is how the transducer works. The first part of the brake pedal movement causes a small amount of pressure that the transducer senses and initiates regen. By the time your at full regen you are now starting to activate the mechanical brakes. No difference. If the controller for some reason decided to cut out the regen your foot is still on the brake pedal. You just tweak it to what you like. It is a person preference. Wish I could do that for my Leaf.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Yeah, you can tune the transducer to whatever amount of regen you desire including 100% regen before mechanical brakes start braking, I think I might want to add a little more as I always tend to brake when i'm already in 3rd gear, we used 2nd gear to set it. 

here is this weeks UPdate:


----------



## larrya (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi Jehu, Enjoy your frequent posts. Your AC connections to the charger are lacking a ground. This could be hazardous should one of the hot legs come in contact with the charger case or car body. This condition may not allow the circuit breaker to do its job without this ground connection.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

larrya said:


> Hi Jehu, Enjoy your frequent posts. Your AC connections to the charger are lacking a ground. This could be hazardous should one of the hot legs come in contact with the charger case or car body. This condition may not allow the circuit breaker to do its job without this ground connection.


I plan to add a single anderson connector to my cords for use as ground.




This weeks update is here:


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I looked into doing the same thing with my build, but the cost of thermal control on these cells runs the cost way up and you lose some of the weight savings. Given that you are using used cells, you might have enough savings. I was going to use new cells. Packaging is important and so is including some type of thermal control to keep them cool. Perhaps a separate A/C system just for the battery box. You might also look into the battery box design in the event of a fire directing the flames to a safe direction similar to what Tesla does. They have ducting to direct any fire out the front of the vehicle which allows the passengers to safely exit the vehicle. In your case perhaps direct everything out the back. I look forward to your progress on this front, and I'll be curious if your design looks anything like I came up with.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Do share Mike. Do share. The more shared the better the end product. Holding on to an unused design is useless. If it has hope then by all means let others continue and make it better and work. I'd bet that the cooling is not a real big issue but you would need thermal safety in place while charging and discharging. Lithium cells like it warm. Under normal use I don't see any issues but having the thermal sensors would need to be in place in case of abnormal hot spots that are dangerously hot. No thermal setup will prevent runaway from an accident. Just need containment. 

Pete


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

not easy to do given that it is all in my head and not on paper at this point. I was juat about at the point of building a test module when I decided to just stick with the Calb CA cells in my car due to safety and ease of installation.

What I had in mind is similar to the way K2 energy builds their 3.2v modules except that because I was going to use NMC cells instead of LiFePO4 like K2 I also needed to have some cooling. I had two versions of cooling in mind (liquid and chilled air) and I was going to test both to see how they worked if I built a test module, but like I said, I never got that far. Essentially paralleling a bunch of cells into a module that creates a single "brick" of about 100aH similar to a CALB brick. Cooling could either be liquid or just simply chilled air. Air is much easier, and I think it would work, but I have not tested to be sure.

And the laptop cells will need to have some active cooling. They are not like the LiFePO4 cells we are used to using, they do have a heat buildup when in use. Especially if you build a block of 40+kWh. Yes they do like to operate at 70F just like the LFE but you do have to take precautions unlike the LFE that can run without any active cooling.

The other think to look out for is that they like to remain under 1c discharge, so if you are looking at a 400 amp controller then you need to have 200 parallel cells if you are using the 2200mAh cells (roughly speaking). This means that you end up with a very large pack...that is why Tesla has 85kWh pack. They are forced into that much range just by the nature of trying to get power out of the cells safely.

Safely building a pack out of these cells is not out of the question, but there is a lot to think about when designing the packaging in your vehicle.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

its safe to say that I have a lot of testing ahead of me. UR18650FM cells held 2600ma when new, but i don't know what percentage will still be good, heck i don't even know that good is, Should i use any cell above 2000ma and chuck the rest? or should i only use cells with 2400ma left in them? I currently have 1800 cells I can play and start testing with but keep in mind that i will need around 4600 cells for 40kw pack and it is the results of all this testing that will determine if i seek the other 2 thirds cells needed.

Preliminary plan is to group 154 cells in parallel for a 370AH module (2400mah x154 =369.6) x 30 modules.

My controller pulls a max of 650A but only for a few seconds on hard acceleration, In real world operation my vehicle pulls a constant 200Amps going down the road which is well below the 1c suggested, although the spec sheet actually shows 2c discharge graph










Discharge considerations dont really worry me, Im more worried about this graph









Cycle life does not seem promising on that graph, but perhaps a more recent specs sheet will look better '06 is a long time ago and maybe there is a reason sanyo added the letter M the model number, maybe its the longer lasting version of these cells.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

They are known to not have a long cycle life. That is one of the reasons Jack so much likes the LiFePO4 cells. Granted, not nearly the power rating and they have lower voltages but they have a nice flat curve and pretty long cycle life. 500 vs 3000 is quite a bit less. But the cycle life of the cells fits quite well with the life cycle of a typical electronic item. Once the person is pretty much done they ditch the item and move on to better things. If you wanted someone to buy your next best and greatest computer 4 years later you don't want batteries that last 5 years. You want the power availability to be low enough to discourage the average person and make a stronger image in the brain that they must go buy the next one because it promises better battery life. 

So these battery guys really don't need cycle life. You should do life cycle testing to see if after 500 cycles they continue on the same capacity loss trail or settle out and get good long life after 500 cycles. 

For me I'd be over that 500 cycles already with the amount of driving I do. But also remember it is total cycle and not a partial cycle.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I wonder if the cycle life gets better if you parallel lot of them together. Something to test for in your testing. Or I could. I could connect 9 together and do a life cycle test. So with tiny batteries one could do a few charge discharge cycles in a day.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"So these battery guys really don't need cycle life. You should do life cycle testing to see if after 500 cycles they continue on the same capacity loss trail or settle out and get good long life after 500 cycles."

My experience is that Lithium Cobalt doesn't. You get down to about 70% and start to notice the rapid decline and once you are down to 50% of what you had, the voltage sags too much under even a tiny 1/4C(original capacity) load and you can't draw power from them but even if you do draw a small enough load, the capacity drops like a rock more and more with each cycle.

If you think about the mobile devices that you have used in the past such as cell phones, laptops, digital cameras, etc. Their capacity loss does not level off with each cycle. You might be happy for a few years with getting 4 hours of energy in your laptop. At year three you've may be down to 2 hours and then in year four you're down to 30 minutes and you notice your battery is hot when it is being charged and by the end of year four you unplug your laptop to bring it from your bedroom to the desk downstairs and you find yourself running with it so you can plug it in before it shuts off.

I've seen the same with lithium colbalt camcorders(battery dating back to 1999), digital cameras, laptops, cell phones, RC helicopter, etc that I've used. IMHO the capacity loss seems to get worse. It's no fun but I've actually got 3 laptop batteries, 2 camcorder batteries, a digital camera battery, a cell phone battery that can't run their device for more than 5 minutes. Two of my cell phone batteries are lithium polymer and have puffed up after getting below 50% capacity. Seems Apple products are seeing the same fate with their batteries swelling about the time they are otherwise end of life as well. Swollen LiPo batteries should be discarded and not used though.

In an electric car, with the added voltage sag under load you are also pulling more amperage to do the same work. You get less performance with less voltage(back EMF) and also you have limits to how much amperage you can pull before your voltage is too low for the cell(matters less with LiFePO4 but is more critical with LiCo cells). You get more heat the more you sag them. The more heat, the quicker you kill off your capacity with LiCo.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Here's a tidbit from Tesla Motors that contains information about charging voltage that suggests using a lower charging voltage to get better cycle life than charging to 4.2v. I'd personally probably aim for 4.1v, which Tesla says would give you 90% capacity. If you can easily change charger settings you could raise the charge voltage on the days you think you might need the extra range. 10% shouldn't be critical for you though otherwise capacity planning factoring in cell age in the future hasn't been taken into account.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/bit-about-batteries


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

A good source of information on building packs of 18650 cell is on endless sphere. Interestingly there are strong sentiments about using a BMS on that forum because this chemistry is more volatile than LiFePo. Finding a centralized BMS that will handle this chemistry and the amperage that you are talking about will also be a challenge. I think some of distributed BMS's do allow setting cell parameters.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/

Good luck. I continue the think about these cells for some of my bicycle builds because they are easily configurable to fit a bike frame.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

One possible use of these batteries would be for a cheap bank of batteries for solar backup and for an occasional fast charge if needed for your electric car. Being used in an off grid situation I am sure you could get quite a few years out of some of these and if constructed in a way you could remove and replace as needed then you could have a pretty endless supply of lithium cells. Just under charge and under discharge them and be good. Since they would get little High amperage use they should do just fine. And you can have them in a fire safe container just in case and away from the house. Maybe even underground. A 40kw pack would be quite cheap. Even if it only lasted a few years. How much does one pay per year of power per day? Solar charged and kept topped off for evening use. Bet it would work great. Stationary power and no need to worry about bouncing around.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Yup all those 2 billion cells on teslas will need a secondary market once they are no good for automotive use. 
I think 18650s on laptop batteries will end soon, most new laptops are ultra thin and are moving to pouch cells, So those will be available for next to nothing for the next few years.


----------



## Ampster (Oct 6, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> Here's a tidbit from Tesla Motors that contains information about charging voltage that suggests using a lower charging voltage to get better cycle life than charging to 4.2v. I'd personally probably aim for 4.1v, which Tesla says would give you 90% capacity. If you can easily change charger settings you could raise the charge voltage on the days you think you might need the extra range. 10% shouldn't be critical for you though otherwise capacity planning factoring in cell age in the future hasn't been taken into account.
> 
> http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/bit-about-batteries


This is all good information about these cells. The above link is for the Roadster battery and is dated 2006. Some more current information on the battery in the Model S is on the Tesla Motors Club on a variety of posts. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/

Tesla is very proprietary about some of the things that they do to reduce the thermal runaway that can happen with these kind of cells. Some of their patents give a clue about how they have modified the generic cell to eliminate the PTC element in the top. They also eliminate the plastic insulating wrap so they can get better contact with the thermal management coils that surround the cells in the pack. So the cells in the Tesla and laptop are not the exact same cells. They use the same chemistry and form factor and are manufactured using the same winding equipment.

Also of note, each cell in the parallel block is individually fused by the use of a thin wire connecting the individual cell to the common connection plates. Finally, Tesla adds an etumescent material which also isolates any cells that begin thermal runaway to keep the whole block from thermal runaway. If you want to see what these cells can do when hot, google "Lipo battery fires".

The biggest issue that faces the hobby builder is finding some way to spot weld or solder them together with out them being damaged by the heat of the weld or solder. Interestingly Tesla uses sonic welding to fuse the small wire connecting the cell to the block. Those machines must be expensive because I have not heard of any hobbyist's using that process. 

I drive a RAV4EV, which has a Tesla drivetrain, and because of that I have read a lot about how that battery pack is put together. There is a wealth of information, some speculative, about the 18650 cells on the Internet. Just remember, the 18650 is a form factor and the individual chemistry's and Ahr ratings may vary. So one needs to be discerning when reading about these cells.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Im trying to find any videos showing 18650 cells exploding due to over charging of physical damage but so far:






Ok here is one, so if you buy a cheap imitation cell, then solder right into the cell, crack it open, and "fast charge it" pumping 3 times the recommended voltage into it, it will burst into flames. Anyone surprised?





Another one using 12V to make it blow, this would be the equivalent of pumping 300+ volts into my 120v pack of 18650s





Not as violent in the short out test





Or the crush puncture test





Alright here we go now they are living up the hype


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Jehu,

You need to know if the cells actually hold the stated aH available. I have read that those 5000mAh cells are not actually 5000mAh. I ordered a set of 12 to do some capacity testing. Not holding out for good news but will provide the results. 

Pete 

Wonder if the name is an indication of what to expect 

12pcs Ultra Fire High Energy Density 18650 3.7V 5000mAh Lithium Battery Yellow


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

I suggest you build just one 154p1s module and then put it in an insulated box with some temperature sensors. Put this module in series with your existing pack (or remove one cell from existing and replace) and then drive the car with this added cell. You will see if the module has any large temperature rise while in use, and you can also monitor when charging.

One module will not cost that much and you will be able to get a lot of useful data.

Careful when chosing video and text reviews of 18650 cells. As Ampster noted above, 18650 is just the format, and the cell chemistry can be any number from LiFe, LiCo, LiMn...etc. You really need to just look for reviews of the particular cell you are going to use. Here is a nice review of many common 18650 cells. http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary UK.html 

Looking at videos of LiMn or LiFe wont be of any use if you are going to use LiCo or LiNiMnCo. You really do need to do your own testing since there is not really much good information on large packs of these cells.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> Jehu,
> 
> You need to know if the cells actually hold the stated aH available. I have read that those 5000mAh cells are not actually 5000mAh. I ordered a set of 12 to do some capacity testing. Not holding out for good news but will provide the results.
> 
> ...


I would avoid ultra fire based on all the reviews I've read. All of them indicate that you will get less than half of the rated capacity on the label and they also have a shorter life than rated. Do your own research, but the cells you showed on your video were very reputable cells with good reviews. They were on my list of options when I was thinking of going this route.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Well seems someone else wants them more than me. So I will let them go. No biggie. Maybe another time. Got too much to deal with anyway. Cleaning my current project. Too many spiderwebs. Arrrrrrrg. Thats life in the car port.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Jehu, the datasheet you posted shows 2C discharge curve and it looks like they are not very happy at that 5 amp current. And the 2.5A didn't look too happy either. I think you are using the 1238 650A controller so at a minumum you would want to parallel 130 cells and it might be better if you doubled that. And then your max voltage probably will limit you to maybe 29 cells in series. So a minimum pack to feed that Curtis controller would be 3770 cells or 33.5kwh.

You are probably going to want to be fairly picky about the quality of the cells you end up putting in your car. This means you are going to want to characterize every cell before you put them in the pack. At a 2C discharge and assuming a 2C charge the minimum time to test a cell would be something like 90 minutes making the testing of 3770 cells take 236 days with a single test station operating 24x7.

The first issue is how do you parallel 130 cells? My first idea was to clamp them between copper plates. The problem is the plates need to be electrically isolated so you cant just run bolts. And what if the cells are not all the same height? How do you handle that? From the photos I have seen of the Tesla pack it looks like they welded a wire to the button of each cell and that wire serves as a fuse and the current carrier.

The second issue is how do you cool them? Tesla chills a liquid and flows that through the pack. I assume they also can heat that liquid for places that have severe winters. This should not be a problem where you live.

This is a huge undertaking and I wish you well!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

this weeks episode of the Electric samba project can be found here:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Btw this is the reason why my bus is electric:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Chasing EVs at the LA Auto Show this Week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ0OcRdyf0Y&feature=share&list=UUcMfCkN1juSa49DJFYltOTw


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

More EVs in part 2 of the LA auto Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLEQWpfUw2E&feature=share&list=UUcMfCkN1juSa49DJFYltOTw


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

More 18650 cell testing


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

jehu said:


> More 18650 cell testing


Watched it this morning. I tried the conductive epoxy about 20 years ago. The copper fill worked ok but the resistance was too high for the power levels I wanted to use. The silver fill epoxy was better but was WAY too expensive. For this it seems like an aluminum fill would actually work pretty well for you if such a thing exists. I like your idea of building one 150P module and trying it in the car. From a practical standpoint the spot welds seem like they would offer the least problems overall. I can imagine hitting a pothole and having all the nuts delaminate from the cells.

I will continue to follow this with great interest.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Jehu, PM sent. Another enjoyable video. Kinda getting burned out on Jack only videos.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jehu. 
Nice video this week. I respect your dedication with those cells. Will you factor a cost for the time building the pack from all those, testing, etc etc? 

Loved the rant about those idiot salesmen at dealers. Occasionally there's a person actually interested in the vehicle they are selling but it is usually niche, performance or classic cars that not many people and not often are bought... 

About your battery packs. I find welding or bonding a mammoth task. Why? Why are you doing it like this? May I suggest a simpler solution. Imagine a half inch aluminium plate with 150 8mm deep holes into which you fit (and maybe bond) short 5mm springs and you have 2 plates for cathode and anode and the cells simply sit in the recesses of one plate before the other is lowered onto the top of the cells and the plates are clamped together with some sort off electric isolation for the fixings obviously. The springs ensure there is always proper connection between the cells and the plates no matter what variation in length or expansion occurs and can easily handle the voltage and modest current required. 
Because your cell voltage is so low, risk of arching in each pack is very low, the plates can be structural and slow some sort of fixing in series to make up the pack and if you got really fancy you could even wrap or encase the sides of the packs to run heating/cooling fluid through the cells. 

What would you think to a simplified design like this? I have no ambition to tackle a pack build so big but now I am suggesting this option it does not seem so daunting. Actually, you could make the plates from acetal and connect wires to the springs to save weight and cost over the aluminium. There seems to be a multitude of options for this, I might have to seriously consider it. I just don't have the patience to test all those cells...


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

The Electric Samba turns one year old this week


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Installing a EMW EVSE this week


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

Nice video again this week. Keep up the good work.

I discovered another way to get a 23 window samba van...


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

This week's episode of the electric Samba project


----------



## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

Hi Jehu
Nice informative videos. ( and hilarious sometimes; GM bimbo confidently saying that a chevy volt traction motor runs in reverse to provide regen!!)

How far have you gone with the 18650 cells?

Im currently pursuing the same idea. Ive reclaimed around 1100 of them cells. 4000 more to go

You probably outbid me twice on ebay on the lenovo cells, lot of 43. Was that you?

Dont worry. I found a source that will sell the laptop packs per pound, and I get to choose the ones I want. Done bidding on ebay for now.

Im in the process of constructing a battery tab welder, which is a must, for this kind of project.

I think I figured out how to pack the cells into a big battery. Are you willing to start a new thread in the batteries subforum, or would you like me to? The experiences ( and tribulations) we will undergo deserve a thread of their own, and this way, we can exchange ideas.

Tell me what you think. Keep up the great work.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

DDDvvv said:


> Hi Jehu
> How far have you gone with the 18650 cells?


Testing Capacity on the first 150 cell module, started with worst cells so its taking me a while, I want to get a minimum of 300AH out of 150 cells so I've been going thru 200 cells so far I think Im about ready to solder the module together and test it on my car.



DDDvvv said:


> Im currently pursuing the same idea. Ive reclaimed around 1100 of them cells. 4000 more to go


Cool, I have about 2200 cells or enough for 12 or 13 modules last i counted.



DDDvvv said:


> You probably outbid me twice on ebay on the lenovo cells, lot of 43. Was that you?


No I got tired of being out bid so i contacted a seller and offered to buy all he had, he had around 200 batteries, I just saw that he has another 130 right now but it seems he wants way more for these ones, not sure why.



DDDvvv said:


> Dont worry. I found a source that will sell the laptop packs per pound, and I get to choose the ones I want. Done bidding on ebay for now.


Ooh Do tell I need another 2500 cells myself



DDDvvv said:


> Im in the process of constructing a battery tab welder, which is a must, for this kind of project.


I tried constructing a simple one using a large 2 farad 12v Cap and a thyristor but it didn't work, the thyristor would not engage, I might try using an IGBT i have, Even I have a feeling that 2 farad Cap is not actually 2 farad, .5 farad maybe, so yeah I will have to figure out how to weld these things.



DDDvvv said:


> I think I figured out how to pack the cells into a big battery. Are you willing to start a new thread in the batteries subforum, or would you like me to? The experiences ( and tribulations) we will undergo deserve a thread of their own, and this way, we can exchange ideas.


Maybe, I got so many projects going right now I'm not sure i wanna have to keep track of another thread, but i will be documenting my progress on video so maybe I can just post there all related to the battery stuff.


----------



## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

My battery pack source is a junkyard that also recycles computers. Check out your local scrapeyards/junkyards.

You gotta watch out for those car audio capacitors. 98% of them are complete junk. Some even have bricks in them, to compensate for the missing capacitor materials!!

Im in the process of returning a 4 farad capacitor. What a ripoff. There's no such thing as a 4 farad capacitor.

I will start the thread because I might need some input about a few issues.

Thanks for replying


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Battery Fun this week!


----------



## Tom (Mar 26, 2008)

Great Video.
What a great service you and this site provide!

Thanks,
Tom in Maine


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

More battery play


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

The 18650 Module drives the eSamba


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

More EV samba fun this week:


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Jehu,

I am closely watching your battery pack build. What you are doing is practical to assemble but if you have a cell go bad it is going to be a devil to find. About the only thing I would change is to place the positive and negative connections on opposite ends of the module for a couple of reasons. First is that it makes it less likely to short the terminals together if the battery bumped something conductive on that side. Second, the way you have it now you may see the cells on the side where the cables are heat more because of uneven loading of the cells during discharge and regen. Cell loading is more even if the terminals are on opposite ends of the battery. Third, when strapping the modules together having them on opposite ends you can just bolt your positive terminal to the negative terminal strip.

I am glad to see you got a loaner charger. I have two of the EMW chargers just in case one of them failed I would still be able to charge while I repaired the broken one.

Looking forward to more Electric Samba fun!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

dougingraham said:


> Jehu,
> 
> I am closely watching your battery pack build. What you are doing is practical to assemble but if you have a cell go bad it is going to be a devil to find.


Yeah thats a though one, the only thing I can think is designing a module that uses pressure contacts instead of a welded connections. but the only scenerio this would be needed is if individual cells die before their brothers in a parallel circuit.
I know some cells do die before others as they do in laptop packs but so far what i've seen is that paralleled cells suffer the same fate, they either all good or all bad, or anywhere in between but all together.

So I don't believe one cell in the middle of the module will die, I believe whole modules will die, some before others.



dougingraham said:


> About the only thing I would change is to place the positive and negative connections on opposite ends of the module for a couple of reasons. First is that it makes it less likely to short the terminals together if the battery bumped something conductive on that side. Second, the way you have it now you may see the cells on the side where the cables are heat more because of uneven loading of the cells during discharge and regen. Cell loading is more even if the terminals are on opposite ends of the battery.


Thats a good idea, I was thinking how to distribute the load even on all cells but I couldn't think of a practical way, this might be it.

thanks


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

If you have a cell go bad and it fails open or loses capacity you'd only be out the capacity of that cell and you'd probably not need to take the pack apart to fix it if you aren't too worried about ~2Ah. Just hope you don't have a cell fail shorted or you've got the energy of all the rest of the cells pouring into the short which in simple terms usually would mean fire.

Jehu, I'm looking to do a similar pack build of a much smaller capacity in the range of 100-120v and 6-10Ah(this isn't for a vehicle but rather universal motors usually used in plug-in power tools, plug-in mowers, and plug-in snowblowers). To make things easier and more consistent, I want the cells to match. What laptop batteries did you search for? Also what search term did you use for the plastic assembly pieces?


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

What! #18 out of 69 http://registry.evtv.me/view/36
My samba should rate higher than that. If you wanna help me rate better please register and vote. thanks


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

well, I've withheld my voting until there are the 100 cars that Jack wants on the board. I'm not sure if he allows users to move votes around, but when I first got there, there was only 10 cars, so if I voted, yours was not even in the running. Anyhow, love the Samba, and your videos. I'll vote for you when there are 100 on the board. I want to see what else pops up. Some pretty nice cars that I was unaware of. Lots of stuff I've seen on blogs while surfing the net for ev builds.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yours was my first pick. It will be fun to see how the voting moves around as new cars are posted. At least you have a vote.


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

If you've already voted and then a new car come in that is worth voting for, can you move a vote from one to another?


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Yes, you can change votes as much as you want.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

MN Driver said:


> What laptop batteries did you search for? Also what search term did you use for the plastic assembly pieces?



Lenovo packs are usually available in large quantities as big companies lease them and then return them at the end of the lease, so many dead batteries usually. They are also way easier to break apart than say, dell or the other manufacturers.


the clips are available here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/321114252941?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is this weeks episode:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

New eSamba Episode:


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

new Episode


----------



## cgalpin (Dec 5, 2012)

I thought you might like this. 

http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/2670/1/bust.pdf


----------



## mapeairs (Feb 9, 2012)

great article!
i had read about the MIT electro-vair but this is a great perspective of the other team's experience.
thanks for sharing!
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/videos/1960/Electrovair_II.html


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

cgalpin said:


> I thought you might like this.
> 
> http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/2670/1/bust.pdf


Holy crap, this is awesome, these guys were doing this back in 68, thats 10 years before i was born!!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

oh nice, the build thread!

just posting a comment to get subscribed


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Here is the latest episode


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

New video


----------



## stealthhack (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi, Jehu. Recently i've watched your clips on youtube about 18650 packs in the eSamba, and decided to build one pack for my ev. 
I still don't have a car yet but the major parts are ready(motor, controller, contactors, cables, DC/DC conv.).
How many 18650 packs did you made so far.
Need some opinion about the performance of 18650 pack on 1C or 2C(мауbe with forced air cooling?) and sagging on these conditions because my pack will be a lot smaller at the beginning(about 600-650 cells so far in good condition), and i recieve laptop batteries constantly every month and the battery will grow up in time!
Best regards, and excuse me(in advance) for my poor english.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Nice 818 Kit Car Teaser on the track there. Thats going to just rock. Looks great.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Next episode is LIve!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Back to batteries!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

good to see you again Jehu. Exciting news for sure. Looking forward to more updates.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Greetings Jehu! Glad to see more video!


If I understand correctly there are six modules in each of these Tesla packs.

A module consists of 330 cells arranged in 15S22P which is 55.5 volts and 55 AH or 3.0525 kwh and the whole pack would be 18.315 kwh.

If these are like the other Tesla packs then the cells used have a 2C continuous rating meaning the continuous current of a module would be about 110 amps.

You commented on how thin the fuse wires were compared to the ones you are using in your own pack. I expect they are supposed to blow at around 6 amps. With this in mind and your four pack test setup I would expect a lot of blown fuse wires when you get to currents of something over 220 amps. I hope I have misinterpreted something such that this does not happen and look forward to the next video update.

Best Wishes!


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

dougingraham said:


> Greetings Jehu! Glad to see more video!
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly there are six modules in each of these Tesla packs.
> ...


Wow Doug, you were paying attention, I did blow fuses, but not at the 200Amp range, happened much higher than that, next video will be interesting.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

jehu said:


> Wow Doug, you were paying attention, I did blow fuses, but not at the 200Amp range, happened much higher than that, next video will be interesting.


Fuses are interesting devices. The wire fuses Tesla uses in that pack are affected by the heat sink that is the cell and the current collector plate. It would seem like there would be a cascading failure. Once one fuse lets go the current shifts to all the other cells and then they start to go as well. In the car there would be a sudden drop in voltage across that one cell and if you had a BMS that would trigger a stop. The OEM would know what the safe current is and not exceed that so the cascading failure should never happen. I am curious what the current level was and look forward to the next installment.

Later!


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

My understanding is, in the Tesla design, the individual fuse is intended to protect against an internal cell failure (short = fire risk) 
(remember Tesla have custom cells with no internal protection circuits.)
Their BMS protects against excess current /voltage irregularities.
I also believe that their cells are capable of much higher than 2C discharge.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Karter2 said:


> My understanding is, in the Tesla design, the individual fuse is intended to protect against an internal cell failure (short = fire risk)
> (remember Tesla have custom cells with no internal protection circuits.)


This is correct. To keep the losses low in the fuse they calibrate their fuse to blow at probably as much as twice the C rating for a cell. Jehu will probably tell us approximately what this point is for these packs in his next show. I was thinking a little lower value than what they must have done. We know the most current Jehu placed on the packs would be about 650 amps. Jehu hinted that the fuses had started blowing so we know the fuses are set to blow at something less than the 5.9 C peak he was capable of placing on the modules with the Samba. Which does fall into line with the capabilities of the typical 2600 mah 18650 cells that Tesla is known to have used.



Karter2 said:


> Their BMS protects against excess current /voltage irregularities.
> I also believe that their cells are capable of much higher than 2C discharge.


Can you link a pointer to a Panasonic 18650 datasheet that shows this? All of the ones I have looked as show a 2C continuous discharge plot which has a depressed discharge voltage. They can probably do a pulse discharge for a few seconds of twice that. In the case of the 2.5 AH (2.6 AH typical) would be 10 amps. Cells that can put out lots of power are built differently and don't have a lot of capacity because of that. Tesla does not need a lot of power because they use such a large pack that they get enough without exceeding just a couple of C.

Looking forward to the next video!


----------



## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Genuine Panasonic data sheets are notoriously tricky to access.
But there is plenty of info available on the Panasonic 2900mAhr PF/PD cell that has a continuous rating of 10a and a burst rating of 18A.
For example,. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?376719-Test-Review-of-Orbtronic-18650PD-2900mAh-%28Black%29
In addition there are Sony ,Samsung and LG cells with higher Discharge capability and Tesla has been known to source from some of those suppliers also.
EG:- 130730_Technical Information of LG 18650HE2 %281%29 (1).pdf
Further, it is widely rumored that Tesla has a unique cell specification not available to other users ?
I would suspect that Tesla's pack design allows for the maximum burst current that their cells are capable of (+a bit of headspace ?).

Remember that Tesla rate their "Mod S P85" at 416hp or 300+ kW.(continuous ?)
... so that 85kWhr pack would need 3.5+ C cells to supply that power.

The Roadster sport (215kW and a 54kWhr pack) would be needing 4C cells !


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

new episode


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Jehu, Nice update. I guess I get to wait to see at what point the cell level fuse blows.

Will we be seeing you at EVCCon?


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)




----------



## leadedlight (Aug 9, 2014)

Hi Jehu

I noticed the Tesla videos have gone. Not due to arm twisting I hope!
Anyway I for one am more interested in your laptop battery experiment as that is more within reach of most people. I drive a Reva (G-wiz in UK) and would only need about a thousand to replace my lead pack with a greater range. Also they would be great to use as a range extender with a voltage booster used to recharge an existing pack for the odd journey that deeded them.
Apart from the temptation to try the Tesla originals did the old laptop batteries put you off using them due to performance or hard slog to create the packs?

Keep them comingJ

Mark


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

So now the videos on post 185 and 193 are now private...bummer. I hope this does not mean you have lost your source for these cells. I was looking forward to the group buy.


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Not to worry about the videos. The take down was not due to Tesla. Be patient, good things are coming our way.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

New episode


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

NEw episode


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Kudos on your comments on Jacks Blog

I think many would be happy to help make a video. 

PM me. 

PS. I still watch your short films and have pretty much stopped watching Jacks boring 3 hour shows. 

Jack also fails to realize that many of us non EE types do have EE types helping us. Hell, Im working on an AC motor inverter. Kit form.


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

It really is unfortunate that the public face of DIY EV conversions is a raging sociopath.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Hollie Maea said:


> It really is unfortunate that the public face of DIY EV conversions is a raging sociopath.





onegreenev said:


> Kudos on your comments on Jacks Blog
> I think many would be happy to help make a video.
> PM me.
> PS. I still watch your short films and have pretty much stopped watching Jacks boring 3 hour shows.
> Jack also fails to realize that many of us non EE types do have EE types helping us. Hell, Im working on an AC motor inverter. Kit form.




Thanks guys, Fortunately people are smart and they will eventually follow a real leader. 
In the mean while, here are some cool 18650 modules finally for sale


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

New Video


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

BTW did you all have a chance to check out our latest episode?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Dont make your own CNC machine !!!!!
its a specialist item, just buy one.

http://www.signstech.com/product_detail.php?ProId=36&CateId=18#.VL2_HLv9mos


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

RIPPERTON said:


> Dont make your own CNC machine !!!!!
> its a specialist item, just buy one.
> 
> http://www.signstech.com/product_detail.php?ProId=36&CateId=18#.VL2_HLv9mos



Nothing special about CNC machines, just like my laser except a rotary tool instead of mirrors and laser. Now if you wanna argue that my time is better spent elsewhere, well….. Maybe


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> my time is better spent elsewhere


 There it is !
they are simple in concept but not in the building.
Ive got mine landed and running, made my own coolant tray for $7000.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

Sorry guys, no update on the samba because we were working on this! this is the new evShow


----------



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Jehu,

I saw the clip you posted on Jacks site. Nice. I now have my adaptor coming for my VW Bus. Finally. I will however be using an AC-35 for my Bus. Should be ok for what Im going to do with the Bus. Mostly local stuff. No DC on this project. I have my Leaf Cells pretty much ready to go in the Bus. I'll have to figure out how best to put these under the cargo floor and fuel tank area. 

Pete 

My adaptor should be here in a week or so. I did get mine from Jack. He has the best available for the VW right now and the best price. No more Rebirth Auto adaptors except some old stock that some are still trying to sell. The el-cheap-o adaptors are not much less than what Jack has so I opted to get his. 

Awaiting the news of the last trip you took. Hope it all went well.


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

wow its been a while since I posted here but....


----------



## jehu (Oct 28, 2012)

I have a new daily driver 



"


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

You are brave Jehu, nobody on here likes the Curtis Controller, everything I posted about my 3 phase motors and Curtis Controllers people shot down, old antiquated technology.... Just between you and I, works well, don't they....


----------

