# Will A Growing Electric Car Fleet 'Kill' the Power Grid?



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

Jason Hall recounts policy and technology developments that will minimize the impact of a growing fleet of electric and plug-in hybrids on the power grid.

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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Somewhere i read that it takes over 2kWh to produce 1L gasoline all the way to the pump. So, an electric car fleet could actually reduce the use of electricity seen in a larger picture, or at least be quite neutral in this aspect.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

steelneck said:


> Somewhere i read that it takes over 2kWh to produce 1L gasoline all the way to the pump. So, an electric car fleet could actually reduce the use of electricity seen in a larger picture, or at least be quite neutral in this aspect.


I've seen figures that vary between 4.5 and 7 kwh to produce a gallon. And some of that electricity is made at the refinery by burning coal. If correct I could go somewhere between 15 and 23 miles on just the electricity used to make the gasoline.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Then the thermal input to fracture (crack) the oil. And the " largest cost at the refinery is the catalyst" according to the chief operator at a refinery I worked at. Some of this is powdered , ends up in the gas and worse ,when they have a runaway and have to flare everything, the hole aera gets covered in this yellow dust. Because they bypass the electrostatic precipitators . Sorry to get off point.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those figures for electricity use in gasoline production are inaccurate. While it takes about 6.5 kWh of equivalent *energy* per gallon most of that energy is heat, with less than .5 kWh of actual electricity used.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

What is the source of your numbers . That sounds like a number from the old days before hydro cracking when oil was simply distilled . The last oil to be distilled was diesel , that can no longer be done with low sulfur requirement . It has to be hydro cracked to get rid of the sulfur at 1200-1400 deg. f.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As you say, heat, not electricity, is the main input. The over all petroleum industry efficiency is around 80%, 33kWh/ gallon x 20% = 6.6kWh of energy per gallon.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

The figures I've seen quoted are around 4.5 kWh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline. Its important to note that you do get more than just gas from that 4.5 kWh, you also get things like diesel and various petrochemicals, but the fact remains that you must use that electricity if you want a gallon of gas.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

We can be assured that the big oil boys told the whole truth about power consumption as they have a spotless record .
I drive short distances most of the time 2 to 4 miles in a diesel MB getting about 20 mpg , on the highway 28 mpg. So around town at less then 45mph with stop and go , in my ford ranger ev I should be using less (225w/m) electric power, then they claim takes to refine a gallon of diesel. That is using the oil
corps numbers.
I wounder what big oil pays for electricity? The average consumers wouldn't be subsidizing big oils rates on electricity would they?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Notice in that video how he doesn't say where he came up with that figure of 4kWh per gallon of gas. I don't know how UK refineries work but here in the US most of them generate their own power from natural gas and other oil extraction by products, and they generate so much electricity they sell the excess to the grid. Because the grid is regulated they have to report what they generate and what they use.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Notice in that video how he doesn't say where he came up with that figure of 4kWh per gallon of gas. I don't know how UK refineries work but here in the US most of them generate their own power from natural gas and other oil extraction by products, and they generate so much electricity they sell the excess to the grid. Because the grid is regulated they have to report what they generate and what they use.


That just means they don't get their electricity from an external powerplant, but even if they generate on-site there is still an electricity cost.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Will A Growing Electric Car Fleet 'Kill' the Powe r Grid?*



JRP3 said:


> Notice in that video how he doesn't say where he came up with that figure of 4kWh per gallon of gas. I don't know how UK refineries work but here in the US most of them generate their own power from natural gas and other oil extraction by products, and they generate so much electricity they sell the excess to the grid. Because the grid is regulated they have to report what they generate and what they use.


 What they generate and use internally would not be reported , nor would
the production numbers of oil be part of the grid.
Remember the wild west grid in California a few years ago, that was not well regulated .
The only well regulated part of the grid is the consumer and small generators of solar.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

rochesterricer said:


> That just means they don't get their electricity from an external powerplant, but even if they generate on-site there is still an electricity cost.



Of course there is, never suggested otherwise. The point is that the generating plants are on the national grid, the refineries actually "purchase" their electricity from the generating plants they run, so there is a record of how much electricity they use each year. When you compare the electricity used to the number of gallons produced per year, it ends up as less than .5kWh per gallon last time I worked the numbers, which was a few years ago, but I doubt it's gone up to more than 1kWh by now. As stated, the main input in refining is heat.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

JRP3 said:


> Of course there is, never suggested otherwise. The point is that the generating plants are on the national grid, the refineries actually "purchase" their electricity from the generating plants they run, so there is a record of how much electricity they use each year. When you compare the electricity used to the number of gallons produced per year, it ends up as less than .5kWh per gallon last time I worked the numbers, which was a few years ago, but I doubt it's gone up to more than 1kWh by now. As stated, the main input in refining is heat.


Was that per gallon of gasoline or did you divide it up among all of the petroleum products produced?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*I think I used Refinery purchased electricity 46,078 million kWh's 
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/PET_PNP_CAPFUEL_DCU_NUS_A.htm
2,719,559,000 barrels of oil produced 
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_crd_crpdn_adc_mbbl_a.htm
19 gallons of gasoline per barrel, 42 gallons in a barrel, (so almost half a barrel) 
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=24&t=10

So divide 46,078,000,000 kWh's by 2,719,559,000 barrels = 17 kWh per barrel, divided by 42 gallons in a barrel = 0.4 kWh of electricity per gallon.

*I'm using 2013 numbers this time, probably used 2011 numbers when I did it originally.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Just tried to do the UK numbers, but I'm coming up with ridiculous figures that can't be right. I'll have to re-check when I have time.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I think the kWh per unit of automotive fuel can vary a lot between different countries, and even between different refineries in the same country, depending on the price of electricity compared to produce electricity from oil. Of course it is also a question of the technology in use at the refinery.

In countries with lots of surplus cheap electric capacity, it can economically be better to use electricity and instead be able to sell a bit more of refined products. In Russia i guess they use natural gas to drive their refineries, since they have lots of it. But if they make more exporting the gas than using their nuclear electricity, then they probably wont use the gas. Of course it is also a question of demand from customers, environmental rules and associated costs. Probably a very tricky equation with no definite answers.

The higher oil price, the more attractive it ought to be to use more electricity, assuming it is cheap and in excess.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The largest input in refining is always going to be heat, no matter how cheap electricity may be, and it's always going to be cheaper to just burn something directly to create that heat than to burn something in a generating plant to create electricity and then use the electricity in a resistance heater to create heat again.


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## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

JRP3 said:


> The largest input in refining is always going to be heat, no matter how cheap electricity may be, and it's always going to be cheaper to just burn something directly to create that heat than to burn something in a generating plant to create electricity and then use the electricity in a resistance heater to create heat again.


It will be most efficient, yes, but that is not the same as cheapest since that depend on how much income you get for that "something" compared to the price of kWh's. Just imagine if you could sell that "something" for 1$ per some heat unit you get from it, but you could get the same amount of heat from electricity for 50 cent. Not only would you reduce your energy bill, you would also have more of that "something" available for sale and thus get more income. 

EDIT: This could be one reason that Iran want nuclear power, they predict a skyrocketing oil price.. not necessarily nuclear arms even if that also is a possibility.

EDIT: A simple example. In Sweden electricity is reasonable cheap, around 1SEK per kWh. Now say i want to create heat, like in my kitchen stove. I could have a gas-stove to burn that "something" that in this case would be gas, but for me it would be at least four times more expensive than using electricity. But there are other countries where it can be the other way around, where gas is cheap and electricity expensive.


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