# Baseline vehicle



## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.

Example:



Vehicle: Domestic or import small pickup (Ford Ranger, Chevy S-10, Toyota pickup, etc.)
Stock vehicle weight: ~3000 pounds
Motor: WarP 9 series-wound DC ($2065)[http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp9.php]
Speed controller: Curtis 1231C ($1589)[http://www.evsource.com/tls_curtis.php]
Batteries [144 V]: Odyssey PC1500MST 68AH AGM Battery ($254*12=$3048)[http://www.evsource.com/tls_odyssey.php]
Other [connectors, cables, etc.]: ($1000?)
Total: $7702

Performance estimate:


Range: 40 miles (combined driving)
Power: 80 kWh
Acceleration: slightly less than original vehicle
Top speed: 60 MPH
Battery replacement: 3.5 years
I don't know if these are reasonable numbers. You get the idea? I think a comparison (as direct as possible) with lithium-ion batteries should be the next step.

Thanks,
Kurt


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm not sure what goal this is going to help achieve. So we make up an imaginary vehicle, and do what with it? I'm not clear on the idea.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

rillip3 said:


> I'm not sure what goal this is going to help achieve. So we make up an imaginary vehicle, and do what with it? I'm not clear on the idea.


The goal is to make it easier for rookies to fairly intelligently discuss and learn about EVs so it's easier to get to the parts-gathering phase.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> The goal is to make it easier for rookies to fairly intelligently discuss and learn about EVs so it's easier to get to the parts-gathering phase.


Hi sgt,

Did you read this http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669 Or get a book on the subject? There are a lot of us here to help, but we can't do it all. You have to start.

Regards,

major


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

major said:


> Hi sgt,
> 
> Did you read this http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669 Or get a book on the subject? There are a lot of us here to help, but we can't do it all. You have to start.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Thanks for the reminder to go through the Wiki information. I got caught up in looking at threads and such and forgot to go back to that.

I don't think I'm asking anyone to do it all. I have started, but it doesn't feel cohesive. It seems like I've looked a lot but not learned much. Yes, ultimately the burden is on me, but I think having some ideas of baseline vehicles would be a good tool for people to wrap their mind around EVs. No, I haven't dug up my old books. But then again, this is the Internet Age, so we typically want to try to find information online.

Another way to think of baseline vehicles would be- if you were to design an EV for Joe Commuter, what would it be? Joe Commuter wants average range, average acceleration, and average cost using average components.

Or, to look at it another way- it's similar to designing a cookie cutter hot rod. Buy a fiberglas '32 Ford body, aftermarket frame, crate Chevy 350 with Holley 650 carb, Erson RV cam and Hooker headers, Art Morrison turbo350 trans, and Currie Ford 9" rear end.

Thanks,
Kurt


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## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

A few suppliers offer turn key kits with everything needed to complete the conversion. I studied all kit parts lists that I could find to get a feel for the scope of the project.

Just like building a street rod, skills vary. Keeping a notebook is helpful to refer back to without having to research things again.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

sgtlethargic said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for the reminder to go through the Wiki information. I got caught up in looking at threads and such and forgot to go back to that.
> 
> I don't think I'm asking anyone to do it all. I have started, but it doesn't feel cohesive. It seems like I've looked a lot but not learned much. Yes, ultimately the burden is on me, but I think having some ideas of baseline vehicles would be a good tool for people to wrap their mind around EVs. No, I haven't dug up my old books. But then again, this is the Internet Age, so we typically want to try to find information online.
> ...


Have you had a look at the garage? The completed vehicles in there should give you a wide variety of ideas as to what you can expect. There's always EValbum.com too.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

rillip3 said:


> Have you had a look at the garage? The completed vehicles in there should give you a wide variety of ideas as to what you can expect. There's always EValbum.com too.


Yes. At this point I think it's more confusing than helpful because there is such a wide variety ... _all over the map_.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.

Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.

Even ease of convertion can't be pinned down.

One person may find it easiest to swap the ICE from their Ford for a fork lift motor and curtis controller while another may find it easy to design and build an ac set up.
Some of us find it easier to design a whole vehicle, from the ground up, around the components that are already lying around in the garage while others would rather a conversion company handled everything.

I can give you my 'base line' if you think it will help.

Single seater commuter vehicle
Range: 70 miles at 70mph
Motor: either 9" or 12" just because I already have them
Controller: whatever comes up cheap on Ebay or I'll build the Open Revolt
Batteries: Has to be lithium for the range
Charger: Ummmm, don't know
BMS: see above
Donor vehicle: Scratch built as nothing else seems to fit the requirements

The level of complexity depends on personal skills and experience so I am keeping it within what I can do with a little help. Others may say that programming a controller is the easiest bit whereas I would say building the chassis and suspension is the easiest.

In terms of a 'base line' vehicle it is pretty useless for most people who are not me.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

I guess my confusion stems from this: if lots of working examples to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing? 

Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.

If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


One thing is for sure, you wont be getting 40 miles out of 144 volts worth of 68Ah AGM batteries in a truck...


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> One thing is for sure, you wont be getting 40 miles out of 144 volts worth of 68Ah AGM batteries in a truck...


Actually, that pretty much sums up the issue: I don't have a feel for what's reasonable. And, in looking in the Garage and the EV Album there seem to be more unfinished, "I don't have actual numbers" builds than finished with real data builds.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

rillip3 said:


> I guess my confusion stems from this: if *lots of working examples* to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, *how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing?* ...


There aren't lots of working examples to choose from.

How can you say that a generic example would be nowhere near what I want?



rillip3 said:


> Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.
> 
> If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it.


The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point.* The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. *Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."

I'll look at conversion kits and see if they give a satisfactory explanation of why the components were chosen.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.
> 
> Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.
> 
> ...


My last reply applies similarly here, too:

The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point.* The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. *Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

The problem is there is no single 'baseline vehicle', and the decision tree splits rapidly depending on user priorities of performance/range/cost.

I guess you could start with the basic assumption that the goal is a 'suburban commuter' with 30-50 mile range, moderate performance, and minimum cost. Starting there, the first decision is truck, or 'small hatchback'... then you can develop a 'standard package'.

For example, for a 'small hatchback' being the most economical, 4-seater, likely to get 50 mile range at the lowest price with:

- 8" DC motor
- curtis 1221 controller
- pfc or similar cheap 15 amp charger
- chennic or similar dc-dc
- adaptor from canEV.com or alternate
- misc 'bits' from any one of 6 or so retailers
- 120v worth (38x100ah) of large format LiFePO4 (thundersky/CALB)

....then you have a lot of personal preference as to whether you want to put in a little more money for higher capacity batteries, a faster charger, etc. or, higher capacity controller for better performance at higher cost.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

I guess I just can't get on the same wavelength sgtlethargic. I hope you find something that helps you learn like you're looking for.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> My last reply applies similarly here, too:
> 
> The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point.* The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. *Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."


I don't want to devalue your concerns or discourage you from asking or trying to ask the right questions but it would be a little like asking 2000 people what is a good way to get a husband or wife. There is no one answer, or even set of answers, that would help.

It is easier to look at it the other way around, which is how many of us got into conversions, and that is along the lines of:



> I have a GMFord Shopper GTi with a dead 3.6 V8 but is other wise a good car. What would I need to consider to convert it to electric with a view to only doing urban short distance commutes three times a week?


We can then guide you through the possiblilties that you can look into to see what is within the range of your skill and wallet.

When I started I went through the questions of 'What is the best car to convert?' and 'What is the best motor?'.
I had no helpful answers to either except to be told that there isn't a 'best' as it all depends on everything else that only I know about what I need, can do and can afford.

I then went off and bought a Toyota MR2 and then found that it wasn't the right starting point for me so I have moved on to a different project.

My 'base line' study was to look at the many examples in Bob Brant's 'Build Your Own Electric Vehicle' book and then compare the performance and costs with existing manufactured EVs.

I then asked about the equations to work out energy, drag and power requirements and then created a spreadsheet to 'try' examples with. I am still developing that spreadsheet with Lithium and LA cells, vehicle layouts and gear ratios. It is nowhere near perfect but gives me a theoretical 'ball park' figure to work with.

It allowed me to determine that I could run my 550kg trike on 96V 100AH LiFeP04 and just about get the range and performance I need, in theory and in ideal conditions.
I don't know if this might help you.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

Alright, let's try this tact since people seem to be bogged down in the consensus mindset: I'm looking for info on a good pickup EV conversion. You know, an EV Album and/or DIY Electric Car Garage writeup. It should be your basic conversion, have a 30-50 mile range, reasonable acceleration, and data from being driven. I guess the main thing I'm trying to get a handle on is the Wh/mi value.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> Alright, let's try this tact since people seem to be bogged down in the consensus mindset: I'm looking for info on a good pickup EV conversion. You know, an EV Album and/or DIY Electric Car Garage writeup. It should be your basic conversion, have a 30-50 mile range, reasonable acceleration, and data from being driven. I guess the main thing I'm trying to get a handle on is the Wh/mi value.



well..... hate to be a nit-picker, but are you talking 'small' pickup, king cab, full size, 4wd/no?  The other MAJOR factor in wHr/mile will be whether you intend to go with a bed-full of 6v-fla, moderate 8v-fla for a compromise on weight/range, or pony up for LiFePO4 for best cost/mile over a 10 year life and lowest weight.

assuming a 'little' truck, the baseline I would throw out there would include:

- 9" dc motor
- curtis 1231 or similar low-cost 500 amp / 144v rated controller
- 144v worth of Li, at least 100ah to get 50+ mile range.
- other components 'to match' include:
- tranny adapter
- dc-dc
- charger
- main contacter
- circuit breaker
- 500amp fuse
- vacuum pump/system
- heater kit
- instrumentation



d


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> well..... hate to be a nit-picker, but are you talking 'small' pickup, king cab, full size, 4wd/no?  The other MAJOR factor in wHr/mile will be whether you intend to go with a bed-full of 6v-fla, moderate 8v-fla for a compromise on weight/range, or pony up for LiFePO4 for best cost/mile over a 10 year life and lowest weight.
> 
> assuming a 'little' truck, the baseline I would throw out there would include:
> 
> ...


Now we're gettin' somewhere. I'm thinking little truck, as in the early Ranchero weighs in at 2400 lb. But, now I'm thinking toward smaller and lighter so the battery pack would be cheaper. I have some old car parts. If I can come up with a good pickup body I just might go that direction. I'd start with a Ford Model T frame and end with a curb weight of less than a ton, maybe quite a bit less. I'm thinking I'd oversize the motor, controller and such so if I wanted to swap over to a different car I would just need to increase the battery pack.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> I'd start with a Ford Model T frame and end with a curb weight of less than a ton,



you just got pretty far off the beaten track.... going with an oddball or really old donor typically introduces a whole lot of extra work and money to get the thing mechanically sound.

You're better off sticking with a 5-10 year old donor with a nice body and interior that you don't have to mess with and will be willing to drive for 10 years.

a 9" dc with 144v or 100ah LiFePO4 will be enough for a small or even 'regular' size 1/2 ton.... if you remove bed nd turn it into a flatbed, you can lose a couple hundred pounds.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> you just got pretty far off the beaten track.... going with an oddball or really old donor typically introduces a whole lot of extra work and money to get the thing mechanically sound.
> 
> You're better off sticking with a 5-10 year old donor with a nice body and interior that you don't have to mess with and will be willing to drive for 10 years.
> ...


Aint no thing- I like old cars.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

If you have the Cd of the truck and a frontal area, the weight of the truck less driver, batteries and required payload capacity, I can probably run some number and give you a ball park on watts per mile and range for a few speeds and distances.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> Now we're gettin' somewhere. I'm thinking little truck, as in the early Ranchero weighs in at 2400 lb. But, now I'm thinking toward smaller and lighter so the battery pack would be cheaper. I have some old car parts. If I can come up with a good pickup body I just might go that direction. I'd start with a Ford Model T frame and end with a curb weight of less than a ton, maybe quite a bit less. I'm thinking I'd oversize the motor, controller and such so if I wanted to swap over to a different car I would just need to increase the battery pack.


HAve a look at my build thread. As many find...it was a bit of an evolution.... but a lot of the evolution is in the "understanding"...."compromising".... "wants and wishes"... http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23492

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/260

it looks like this now.....


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> If you have the Cd of the truck and a frontal area, the weight of the truck less driver, batteries and required payload capacity, I can probably run some number and give you a ball park on watts per mile and range for a few speeds and distances.


It measures about 48 high by 64 wide, so roughly 3000 sq in or 20 sq ft. I'll guess at the Cd as 0.32, and the weight as a roller as 1800 lb.

Also, for comparison please calculate if the roller weight was 900 lb.

Thanks,
Kurt


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> It measures about 48 high by 64 wide, so roughly 3000 sq in or 20 sq ft. I'll guess at the Cd as 0.32, and the weight as a roller as 1800 lb.
> 
> Also, for comparison please calculate if the roller weight was 900 lb.
> 
> ...


OK, roughly converted to SI units I used:
Cd=0.32
Area=2.1sqm
45 x LiFeP04 100AH giving 144v and weighing 144kg
Still air at 0degC
Tyres on Asphalt
Weights 900kg and 450kg complete vehicle weight without pack weight.
(Not sure if you want to add weight of the motor and conversion parts and driver.)

For 900kg vehicle:
At 60mph, 286Wh/mile, 40miles at 80%DoD
At 30mph, 183Wh/mile, 63miles at 80%DoD

For 450kg vehicle:
At 60mph, 226Wh/mile, 51miles at 80%DoD
At 30mph, 124Wh/mile, 93miles at 80%DoD

It sort of gives you a ballpark if the conditions were ideal, with no inclines, no wind and good tyres on a smooth road surface.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> OK, roughly converted to SI units I used:
> Cd=0.32
> Area=2.1sqm
> 45 x LiFeP04 100AH giving 144v and weighing 144kg
> ...


Thanks. It looks like that lithium ion battery pack would be ~$6000 ... gulp. What about FLA, and for the lighter vehicle could I get away with less voltage then add batteries if I ever swapped to the heavier vehicle?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is just a ball park pack size.

When I am home from work I can run the numbers with FLA and see what the difference is.
Thing is I only have the weight of lithium cells from one maufacturer in my limited data base and no weights for FLA so I will need to look that up for each option.


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## sgtlethargic (Sep 17, 2010)

DIYguy said:


> HAve a look at my build thread. As many find...it was a bit of an evolution.... but a lot of the evolution is in the "understanding"...."compromising".... "wants and wishes"... http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23492
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/260
> 
> it looks like this now.....


I ran the numbers you give and get 85 kW per 1000 kg for your truck, and that you're pushing 833 A to get there. Is that correct, and what Ah rating are the batteries? I tried looking it up but the damn dialup didn't like the PDF file. I'm using the figure below for a baseline of performance:



BLSTIC said:


> ...
> It's also worth noting that unless you want to spend an hour getting to your cruise speed you need more power. A figure of around *35kw/1000kg* has been proven to be adequate for safe highway overtaking and hill climbing


Thanks,
Kurt


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sgtlethargic said:


> What about FLA, and for the lighter vehicle could I get away with less voltage then add batteries if I ever swapped to the heavier vehicle?


For the same conditions as above for the 450kg vehicle but with 12 FLA 100ah batteries weighing (ball park) 50kg each and working to 50% DoD:
30mph - 184Wh/mile - 39 mile range
60mph - 289Wh/mile - 25 mile range

The pack weighs in at 600kg btw.


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