# Netgain cuts out



## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Chevy S10 with 31,384 electric miles.

My Netgain controller dies when I'm putting more than around 450-600 amps on it. I had a code or two for the throttle, so I replaced the throttle, but I'm still having the same problems.

What it does is:

Starts normally, but as I get up to anywhere around 450-600 amps, the controllers display goes dim, there is no power to the motor, but the main HV contactor is still on, and there are usually no codes. When I turn the ign key off the contactor drops out.

I have to kill the "always on" 12vdc power to the controller before turning the ign key back on, or the controller won't start. Now the controller acts as it normally would, but now I have an error code, usually 01, in the history!

I have looked at the recorded IM logging data from the display, and the 5v and everything looks fine as far as I can tell.

The codes I have had at one time or another are: 01, 02, 12, 15, & 17.

Netgain seems to be very busy, and I'm actually afraid when they tell me to send it in, it'll be months before they can get to it.

I've not been able to drive this truck, my primary vehicle, since before Christmas, so I've been forced to drive a gas guzzling Volt!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Check amperage limits, temp limits and cut off limits. Is your cooling system working properly to keep the components cooled properly? How is your 12 volt system. Is it staying to full 13 volts all the time no matter what? 

So what do the codes mean? You should have a list of what the codes mean as it would tell you where to begin looking. 

Pete


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Check amperage limits, temp limits and cut off limits. Is your cooling system working properly to keep the components cooled properly? How is your 12 volt system. Is it staying to full 13 volts all the time no matter what?
> 
> So what do the codes mean? You should have a list of what the codes mean as it would tell you where to begin looking.
> 
> Pete


Its a 1000 amp controller, limits are set to max. Cooling system has fluid, but I disconnected the pump to try and heat the controller after all this started happening. Its about 6 degrees outside, the controller isn't getting hot.

The 12V stayed steady the entire time, that was my first thoughts.

The codes:
01 Throttle range error (that's why I replaced the throttle)
02 Throttle verification error
12 Temperature sensor error
15 Secondary microcontroller not responding in required time.
17 Powered shutoff occurred. More than 200 amps were flowing or throttle
pedal was depressed with key turned off.

Currently, I'm only getting the 01 code, but it only shows up in the history after re-starting.


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I have a dead warpdrive 1200 amp with the similar faults, I hope you have more luck than I did, makes a fine paperweight


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

F16bmathis said:


> Its a 1000 amp controller, limits are set to max. Cooling system has fluid, but I disconnected the pump to try and heat the controller after all this started happening. Its about 6 degrees outside, the controller isn't getting hot.
> 
> The 12V stayed steady the entire time, that was my first thoughts.
> 
> ...


What Throttle are you using? I truly hope not the old standby PB6. I am using the evnetics throttle. Never an issue. I do however need to be sure my AUX power is not going under voltage. What about the whole system just being too damn cold? I'd still look at your throttle. Connections?

Are your cells actually charging to full in this cold? Just looking at voltage may not be enough. 

When cells get too cold they begin to go into hibernation mode. At some point they just won't charge. It has been bitter cold in some regions.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> What Throttle are you using? I truly hope not the old standby PB6. I am using the evnetics throttle. Never an issue. I do however need to be sure my AUX power is not going under voltage. What about the whole system just being too damn cold? I'd still look at your throttle. Connections?
> 
> Are your cells actually charging to full in this cold? Just looking at voltage may not be enough.
> 
> When cells get too cold they begin to go into hibernation mode. At some point they just won't charge. It has been bitter cold in some regions.


I'm using the original style Hall-effect throttle, though I did buy a new one. I didn't consider the cold because this started in much warmer weather. The batteries... Thundersky 160ah, a few years old... I didn't consider looking at the voltage drop when this is happening.

That might make sense. The HV contacts are still on, as the controller does not see an internal error, time to go for a drive. It's only 7 degrees outside!

Nope, can't even start it. Pack V is good, controller faults with a 01 current and a 02 in history. The 01 won't go away. Maybe it is the cold.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> ...
> 15 Secondary microcontroller not responding in required time.
> ...


I don't know anything about this controller in particular, but this kind of fault strongly suggests a crystal clock oscillator isn't oscillating. That is a common problem with crystals when it gets too cold. We can induce a similar failure in our controllers by cooling them down with dry ice.

Try warming up the controller with an infrared lamp (a halogen workshop clamp light will do) then see if the faults go away.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

double check your low-voltage settings... when its cold the battery pack will sag way more under load than when its warm out. i.e. under 600+ amps load, you might have to set your low-voltage limits down to 2.0v/cell to avoid the controller clamping down.

but if it is stopping completely until power down and reset, it sounds more like your dc-dc is dropping below 12 volts when the main pack is sagging. you might want to put a small 12v lead-acid battery in parallel w dc-dc just to test and see.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I don't know anything about this controller in particular, but this kind of fault strongly suggests a crystal clock oscillator isn't oscillating. That is a common problem with crystals when it gets too cold. We can induce a similar failure in our controllers by cooling them down with dry ice.
> 
> Try warming up the controller with an infrared lamp (a halogen workshop clamp light will do) then see if the faults go away.


It did seem to work better when it was warmer out...


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> double check your low-voltage settings... when its cold the battery pack will sag way more under load than when its warm out. i.e. under 600+ amps load, you might have to set your low-voltage limits down to 2.0v/cell to avoid the controller clamping down.
> 
> but if it is stopping completely until power down and reset, it sounds more like your dc-dc is dropping below 12 volts when the main pack is sagging. you might want to put a small 12v lead-acid battery in parallel w dc-dc just to test and see.


I tried starting it yesterday. The pack was full, my dc/dc is connected to the trucks original battery and is at 14.4 when the ign key is on. I didn't see any sag in voltages when the truck was running till it cut out. I can check again.

Thing is, if my dc/dc was going too low, wouldn't the main contactor disconnect?

That's what I don't understand is the truck is dead, but yet the contactor stays on!


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ive had my controller cut out before yet my contactor stayed on because it only needs a tiny bit to hold but it was not given a shut off signal. With my Synkromotive it will shut all down. Just contact Netgain. They would be the best to know what to do. If not then you might need to move to a different controller.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Ive had my controller cut out before yet my contactor stayed on because it only needs a tiny bit to hold but it was not given a shut off signal. With my Synkromotive it will shut all down. Just contact Netgain. They would be the best to know what to do. If not then you might need to move to a different controller.


Yeah, maybe the controller itself dies, before it can give a shutoff signal?

I'd buy a new controller, but I've only got 30,000 miles on this one, so saved $3600.00 (based on .18 a mile gas vs .06 electric) guess I should. But I'm really hoping it can be fixed for less.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

Well, I guess I'm done. Electric vehicles are like a rental I had in New Mexico. Every time I made a profit, something went wrong and I had to spend more than I take in to repair it.

Same with the electric vehicle. I've had three Kelly controllers, two Curtis controllers, a Zilla and now a Netgain blow up. Two lead acid battery packs, wasted money on a Pak-Traker, though I do love the Wi-Com BMS touch screen and my lithium pack.

I'm getting practically no support from Netgain other than "buy our used controller for $1200", said yes, but since I've heard nothing.

At least Zilla had support.

I'm going to get something like a gas guzzling 2014 Camaro SS, and drive a very reliable vehicle. Anybody want any cheap EV parts?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Noooo! Don't go to gas!!!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

F16bmathis said:


> I've had three Kelly controllers, two Curtis controllers, a Zilla and now a Netgain blow up. Two lead acid battery packs, wasted money on a Pak-Traker, though I do love the Wi-Com BMS touch screen and my lithium pack.
> ... practically no support from Netgain other than "buy our used controller for $1200", said yes, but since I've heard nothing.
> 
> At least Zilla had support.


- i'm not too surprised Kelly's died. I am a little surprised the Curtis died; they are not super powerful, but usually are bulletproof. Netgain I don't know anything about... I am SHOCKED that a zilla gave up on you, and am wondering what happened. Only thing I have ever heard them not liking is rapid key switching during startup. This could be cause either manually by turning key-on-off-on rapidly, OR perhaps if you have a dc-dc jittering on and off mid-startup rather than steady on? (this is one good reason for designing your dc-dc 'always on').


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

F16bmathis said:


> I'm getting practically no support from Netgain other than "buy our used controller for $1200", said yes, but since I've heard nothing.


So your saying that they won't even allow you to send it in so they can check it out? Fix it (for a nominal fee) then send it back? Hard to believe from a big company in this EV revolution. Did you just email them? Call them. Don't put up 
with just buy another one. You spent a whopping chunk of change for it to only last a short time. They need to do you right. Not free but they do need to do you right. 

Pete 

Hope you don't go back to a gas guzzler. If you need to go back to fuel based, go with a good turbo diesel like the VW TDI. Still a fan of Diesel.


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I didn't have much luck with support either, that is why I am running a Soliton 1 now.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> - i'm not too surprised Kelly's died. I am a little surprised the Curtis died; they are not super powerful, but usually are bulletproof. Netgain I don't know anything about... I am SHOCKED that a zilla gave up on you, and am wondering what happened. Only thing I have ever heard them not liking is rapid key switching during startup. This could be cause either manually by turning key-on-off-on rapidly, OR perhaps if you have a dc-dc jittering on and off mid-startup rather than steady on? (this is one good reason for designing your dc-dc 'always on').


The Kelly controllers were crap. The Curtis controllers were great, one was modified to put out 750 amps, so can't complain about that. Not sure why the zilla died. When it went I was just cruising along about 30 mph and it just smoked itself so bad, all was left was metal. And even then they wanted me to send it in to see if they could repair it! I think it may have died due to a shorted motor, stator to frame.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> So your saying that they won't even allow you to send it in so they can check it out? Fix it (for a nominal fee) then send it back? Hard to believe from a big company in this EV revolution. Did you just email them? Call them. Don't put up
> with just buy another one. You spent a whopping chunk of change for it to only last a short time. They need to do you right. Not free but they do need to do you right.
> 
> Pete
> ...


It died Dec 22nd. I was asked and sent in the recorded data from the memory card on the display after making several runs going above the amp output required to kill it, usually around 450-500. Besides Christmas and New Years, it's the end of January already. How long does it take to look at an excel sheet? Even if they now asked to send the controller in, I'm afraid I'd never get it back!

I've got a Volt, so there's that, but I really want something I can race like a home built electric, or a Camaro SS, not that the Volt is slow or anything. The Camaro seems cheaper than home built and more reliable plus Chevy is great with thier support.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> I was asked and sent in the recorded data from the memory card on the display after making several runs going above the amp output required to kill it, usually around 450-500.


The controller is a 1000 amp controller with the ability to bump that to 1400 via software. So your saying you took it over those limits? Was the water cooling set up properly or running properly?


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

onegreenev said:


> So your saying that they won't even allow you to send it in so they can check it out? Fix it (for a nominal fee) then send it back? Hard to believe from a big company in this EV revolution. Did you just email them? Call them. Don't put up
> with just buy another one. You spent a whopping chunk of change for it to only last a short time. They need to do you right. Not free but they do need to do you right.
> 
> Pete
> ...


They don't answer the phone, you get a message directing you to use email.
I sent my codes in over a month ago and nothing. I just wanted them to check my controller and let me know how much, I am afraid to send it in as I may not see it again. I contacted them in July and am still dealing with it.
I hope you get some satisfaction with the controller, I am about to write mine off as a bad investment. It came directly from service and never worked for me.


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## CrazyAl (May 9, 2011)

Although I have no experience with the Netgain, with my Kelly KDZ48400 Controller, there is a requirement for a precharge resistors across breaks from B+ (eg. like across the main contactor etc). It also says not to have any breaks on the negative and when connecting, ensure B- is secured first.

Also, there is a requirement for a diode across the coils of the main contactor.

Just wondering if there are any special conditions for the Netgain, just like how my Kelly KDZ has these various conditions?


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> The controller is a 1000 amp controller with the ability to bump that to 1400 via software. So your saying you took it over those limits? Was the water cooling set up properly or running properly?


No, sorry, I meant that I drove it for testing, but it dies at anything above 450 to 600 amps. Cooling system is working fine.


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## F16bmathis (Jun 6, 2008)

CrazyAl said:


> Although I have no experience with the Netgain, with my Kelly KDZ48400 Controller, there is a requirement for a precharge resistors across breaks from B+ (eg. like across the main contactor etc). It also says not to have any breaks on the negative and when connecting, ensure B- is secured first.
> 
> Also, there is a requirement for a diode across the coils of the main contactor.
> 
> Just wondering if there are any special conditions for the Netgain, just like how my Kelly KDZ has these various conditions?


Having had Kelly, Zilla, Curtis and Netgain, I'd prefer the Netgain for ease of installation and being bulletproof. The pre-charge is internal. Installation is literally as easy as connecting HV and motor out cables, a ground, 12V+, IGN+, and connect the throttle. I think they also take care of the diode across the coils too, but don't quote me on that.


With the Curtis I had issues with the precharge resistor burning up, don't remember what that was about, but with Netgain it's not an issue. Also, I burnt up the 12V circuit cause I wired it to the battery pack by mistake. 
Netgains are great controllers. I've got over 30k on mine. It's broke and my primary vehicle that I drive almost 50 miles a day in, has been sitting for over a month. I needed support.

Now I'm driving a gas guzzling Volt. (Winter)


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