# [EVDL] Kelly Controller, does this make sense?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yeah, it makes sense.

Their max current ratings decreasing with increasing voltage ratings
makes sense; other MOSFET-based controller lines work the same way.
And their comment that a 120V controller won't work with a 144V pack
is obviously correct.

On to their advice for the 120V 600A controller. That makes sense, too.

A 120V controller probably uses lower voltage MOSFETs which have lower
Rds-on (they just say Ron, but it's the same thing, drain-source
on-state resistance). If you use a higher voltage controller than you
need, it will have a higher resistance, so there will be more waste
heat, so you can't push it as hard without overheating.

That's basically exactly what they said, but I think it might make
more sense this way.

It's still up to you whether you want the 144V controller now despite
the slightly reduced efficiency or if you want to take them up on
their offer of a 120V controller now and a "deep discount" in the
future.

The efficiency difference should be pretty insignificant. You might go
from 0.9V of loss to 1.4V of loss. Those numbers are made up; I'm just
saying that the efficiency difference really only matters for
controller cooling, not for vehicle efficiency.

Note that this is only for MOSFETs; it doesn't apply to IGBT-based
controllers (like Zilla).

-Morgan LaMoore



> Josh Creel <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Josh,
> >
> > Thanks for your support. We definitely support every customer to have successful project.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

OK I get it now.
Would a 120VDC specific controller be better, that is more efficiant, 
than say a Curtis 1231C that is rated fro 144VDC but only run on 120VDC? 
Would it build more heat? I guess I was thinking that if I was to get the 
Curtis, then run it on 120VDC, then it would be easier on the controller, 
is that incorrect?

thanks for the help
Josh and Jenifer

www.jcsevparts.com



> Yeah, it makes sense.
>
> Their max current ratings decreasing with increasing voltage ratings
> makes sense; other MOSFET-based controller lines work the same way.
> And their comment that a 120V controller won't work with a 144V pack
> is obviously correct.
>
> On to their advice for the 120V 600A controller. That makes sense, too.
>
> A 120V controller probably uses lower voltage MOSFETs which have lower
> Rds-on (they just say Ron, but it's the same thing, drain-source
> on-state resistance). If you use a higher voltage controller than you
> need, it will have a higher resistance, so there will be more waste
> heat, so you can't push it as hard without overheating.
>
> That's basically exactly what they said, but I think it might make
> more sense this way.
>
> It's still up to you whether you want the 144V controller now despite
> the slightly reduced efficiency or if you want to take them up on
> their offer of a 120V controller now and a "deep discount" in the
> future.
>
> The efficiency difference should be pretty insignificant. You might go
> from 0.9V of loss to 1.4V of loss. Those numbers are made up; I'm just
> saying that the efficiency difference really only matters for
> controller cooling, not for vehicle efficiency.
>
> Note that this is only for MOSFETs; it doesn't apply to IGBT-based
> controllers (like Zilla).
>
> -Morgan LaMoore

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> 
> > Would a 120VDC specific controller be better, that is
> > more efficiant, than say a Curtis 1231C that is rated fro
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?

> A flooded pack could be expected to hit 2.7V/cell (or more) during 
> equalisation, which for a 120V nominal pack is 162V. Standard capacitor 
> ratings include 100V, 160V, 200V. 200V parts are generally found in 
> controllers that can handle 144V nominal packs, so this suggests to me 
> that Kelly may be trying to save some cost by squeaking by with 160V-rated 
> caps in their 120V controller. It may or may not go boom immediately, but 
> I would not expect it to live a very long and happy life if fed by a 120V 
> pack.
>
> Especially because of the newness of Kelly to the controller scene, and 
> that their attraction is the lower-price of a made-in-China controller, I 
> would strongly recommend not operating their products right at the maximum 
> ratings. I would use the 144V controller at 120V, but would be a bit 
> nervous about it at 144V (even if they have used 200V parts in the 144V 
> model, there is no guarantee of them being the "good stuff" rather than 
> parts rated a bit optimistically). I would not use the 120V controller at 
> 120V and expect it to last.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just got mine back from Logisystems Controllers, of Odessa, TX. I sent
them a Curtis 1209 (72V, 400A) and they upgraded it to 144-156V, 700A. It
took a long time, and there were hiccups in the process. They're not up to
retail speed at this time, but they are working on it. At this point it's
strictly a Curtis upgrade business as far as I can tell. I haven't
installed or tested it yet; when I do I'll report.



Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What did it cost for the upgrade?
Rich in Va

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Condie" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller, does this make sense?


>
> I just got mine back from Logisystems Controllers, of Odessa, TX. I sent
> them a Curtis 1209 (72V, 400A) and they upgraded it to 144-156V, 700A. It
> took a long time, and there were hiccups in the process. They're not up 
> to
> retail speed at this time, but they are working on it. At this point it's
> strictly a Curtis upgrade business as far as I can tell. I haven't
> installed or tested it yet; when I do I'll report.
>
>
>
> Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?
>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Kelly-Controller%2C-does-this-make-sense--tp15348689p15364457.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?
> 
> Belktronix.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Curtis 1221C and 1231C-7701 are both 120 volt controllers. The Curtis 
1231C-8601 is the 144 volt model.

Paul Gooch



> Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> > This is what would concern me about the response from Kelly: I'm
> > not aware of any other maker producing a controller than will
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> 
> > Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't think they have a price list; it kind of depends on what you're
sending in for upgrade, how much you want out of it, etc. Like I said, they
don't really seem to be set up for retail sales yet and they seem to be
engaged in ongoing testing and refinement of their designs. If you have a
Curtis suitable for upgrade you can call them and ask. Mine cost $500 as a
result of personal negotiations but I don't know if they'd do that deal
again.





> torich wrote:
> >
> > What did it cost for the upgrade?
> > Rich in Va
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rich Long wrote:
>


> Josh Creel wrote:
> >> Who else is making 144vdc controllers, besides Curtis and zilla?
> >
> > Belktronix.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > > Belktronix.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do you think the battery managers will work on my S-10 with the flooded 6v 
batteries? I'm planning on running 120v pack. How long did it take to get 
the control system when you ordered it?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich Long" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller, does this make sense? 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Josh Creel wrote:
> > Do you think the battery managers will work on my S-10 with the flooded 6v
> > batteries? I'm planning on running 120v pack. How long did it take to get
> > the control system when you ordered it?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

i still have not heard back from Kelly, and do not think I'll be buying a 
controller from them. I am curious as to why you would want 2 controllers, 
I think that 1 controller could be used, say a 48 volt controller running 
600 amps in parallel, or a 96 volt 300 amp running series. Does that sound 
right?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: Kelly Controller, does this make sense?


> Hello,
>
> My name is Blaine. I am involved in a conversion and refit on my 41 foot 
> ferrocement sailboat. I decided to go with two Mars etek brushless motors 
> joined by a browning dual shaft gear case. Because my solar wind charge 
> controller(Tri-Star 60) will only charge up to 48 V for now my battery 
> bank is going to be 48V 8-Ds. Possibly dual banks in the future. I would 
> like to consider increasing this to 60 or 72V in the future. (Do you think 
> the motors will handle it? Some say 48V max.) I am considering the Kelley 
> controller brushless 24-48V 300A w/regen or the 24-48V 300A w/regen. Will 
> I get the same performance out of both or at 48V will the 24-48V heat up 
> more quickly. The controllers run 468 and 580 respectfully times two. Do 
> you know of any where that may have some better pricing? I plan to make 
> this purchase in a couple of weeks


> > Josh and Jenifer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We have been testing this kelly controller with the mars brushless motor,
hoping to run a motorcycle at 72 volts , 300 amps,
We have not had very good results with the Kelly controller. It runs but the
motor is very loud. The Sevcon 48 volt 200 amp controller accelerates faster
and runs
much smoother. The kelly controller might work with another brushless motor,
but we are not happy with it at this time.
Each brushless motor will need it's own controller.
Brian Hall





Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:25:07 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller, does this make sense?
To: <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

i still have not heard back from Kelly, and do not think I'll be buying a
controller from them. I am curious as to why you would want 2 controllers,
I think that 1 controller could be used, say a 48 volt controller running
600 amps in parallel, or a 96 volt 300 amp running series. Does that sound
right?

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: Kelly Controller, does this make sense?


> Hello,
>
> My name is Blaine. I am involved in a conversion and refit on my 41 foot
> ferrocement sailboat. I decided to go with two Mars etek brushless motors
> joined by a browning dual shaft gear case. Because my solar wind charge
> controller(Tri-Star 60) will only charge up to 48 V for now my battery
> bank is going to be 48V 8-Ds. Possibly dual banks in the future. I would
> like to consider increasing this to 60 or 72V in the future. (Do you think
> the motors will handle it? Some say 48V max.) I am considering the Kelley
> controller brushless 24-48V 300A w/regen or the 24-48V 300A w/regen. Will
> I get the same performance out of both or at 48V will the 24-48V heat up
> more quickly. The controllers run 468 and 580 respectfully times two. Do
> you know of any where that may have some better pricing? I plan to make
> this purchase in a couple of weeks


> > Josh and Jenifer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

IIRC, the mars motor wants sinusoidal excitation. The kelly provides
trapezoidal. You cannot mix the two and expect good results. Generally,
PMSM (permanent magnet synchronous motor) wants sinus type excitation while
BLDC expects trapezoidal.

Fran




> Brian D. Hall wrote:
> >
> > We have been testing this kelly controller with the mars brushless motor,
> > hoping to run a motorcycle at 72 volts , 300 amps,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmmm... I almost bought a Mars brushless after Kelly
told me their controller would work with it.

Obviously, now I'm glad I didn't buy their controller.
I've been waiting to hear how the 144v controller is
viewed by other EVDLers first, too.

If Kelly is watching this list, I hope they realize
they stand to lose a fair amount of business not only
by people like me who are waiting and watching via
this list, but also the word-of-mouth stores I and
others will share offline.

I hope Kelly does right by you ... not only making
right your transaction, but also learning and fixing
their issues. It would be a win-win for them since
they would show their resolve at good customer
service.

I hope it works out okay.

Scott



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It will work with the Mars motor but maybe not as good as you'd 
expect. In that case, rather than bash Kelly Controller for poor 
stuff you may want to actually communicate with them and try to work 
with them to get a good product out to the public. I think they are 
very willing to listen to folks who do know and to adjust their 
product to suit the needs. However if you're just a person with an 
opinion and no real knowledge then they may not listen as well. You 
need to be open and helpful. This will go further than this kind of 
talk on the site. My experience from a customer so far is very 
professional and very willing to help. I have been very happy with 
their knowledge and professionalism. So please work with them. Bad 
press from bogus information is the worst thing any one can do to 
another. Don't go there.

Pete





> S Collins wrote:
> 
> > Hmmm... I almost bought a Mars brushless after Kelly
> > told me their controller would work with it.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I totally agree. Sometimes this list sounds more like a bunch of high
school cheerleaders gossiping than it does actual factual discussion.

Kelly does look like they've got a good product, but with all
products, there are bugs.





> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It will work with the Mars motor but maybe not as good as you'd
> > expect. In that case, rather than bash Kelly Controller for poor
> > stuff you may want to actually communicate with them and try to work
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I ordered my modified controller for my setup. I hope to have it here 
real soon and while I wait I will go out and get my batteries. They 
are very helpful and they were very diligent at getting exacting 
information so they could make a controller work for our setup.

Pete : )





> Travis Gintz wrote:
> 
> > I totally agree. Sometimes this list sounds more like a bunch of high
> > school cheerleaders gossiping than it does actual factual discussion.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did I send you the link to my web site? Things have been so hectic lately I wasn't sure, here it is anyway:

www.jcsevparts.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: [email protected] 
To: Josh Creel 
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Kelly Controller, does this make sense?


Josh, 

Thanks for the info. Does the sevcon 48 200amp controller come with regen. This is a must because my prop turns when sailing and the extra power to get back in the inlet would be nice. Josh what is your webpage I would like to take a peek. 



Thanks,

Blaine 


-------------- Original message from "Josh Creel" <[email protected]>: -------------- 


> Here is some info I have gotton on the Kelly so far: 
> 
> We have been testing this kelly controller with the mars brushless motor, 
> hoping to run a motorcycle at 72 volts , 300 amps, 
> We have not had very good results with the Kelly controller. It runs but the 
> motor is very loud. The Sevcon 48 volt 200 amp controller accelerates faster 
> and runs 
> much smoother. The kelly controller might work with another brushless motor, 
> but we are not happy with it at this time. 
> Each brushless motor will need it's own controller. 
> Brian Hall 
> 
> Have you checked the forum at: 
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-f25542 
> 
> there is a lot of good info here. 
> 
& gt; thanks, 
> Josh and Jen 
> www.jcsevparts.com 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:19 PM 
> Subject: Kelly Controller, does this make sense? 
> 
> 
> > Hello, 
> > 
> > My name is Blaine. I am involved in a conversion and refit on my 41 foot 
> > ferrocement sailboat. I decided to go with two Mars etek brushless motors 
> > joined by a browning dual shaft gear case. Because my solar wind charge 
> > controller(Tri-Star 60) will only charge up to 48 V for now my battery 
> > bank is going to be 48V 8-Ds. Possibly dual banks in the future. I would 
> > like to consider increasing this to 60 or 72V in the future. (Do you think 
> > the motors will handle it? Some say 48V max.) I am considering the Kelley 
> > controller brushl ess 24-48V 300A w/regen or the 24-48V 300A w/regen. Will 
> > I get the same performance out of both or at 48V will the 24-48V heat up 
> > more quickly. The controllers run 468 and 580 respectfully times two. Do 
> > you know of any where that may have some better pricing? I plan to make 
> > this purchase in a couple of weeks 


> > > Josh and Jenifer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Logisytems have designed their own controllers! If a customer has requested a
rebuild of Curtis controllers they have in the past done this. However I do
not know if they are still doing this. If you are looking for a Large
Controller they have them ready starting at $980-$1825 depending on the
volts these are 1000 amp controllers that go up to 156v. I have specific
price list if you want more info. THESE ARE NEW! 



> Steve Condie wrote:
> >
> > I don't think they have a price list; it kind of depends on what you're
> > sending in for upgrade, how much you want out of it, etc. Like I said,
> ...


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