# power steering solutions



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

thought I would start a thread that may turn into a sticky as we pool experiences in what works for power steering....

I am just starting a conversion on a Nissan Altima, and will need to retain the power steering. I don't want to try running a pulley off emotor tailshaft since that doesn't give any PS when you need it most (at low speeds).

The next most common solution I see in various build threads is using an electric PS pump from MR2 spyders.... but there are some details missing that I would like to fill in such as:

- are there specific makes/models/years where the PS pump is better suited to a transplant? i.e. to use in searching junkyard or eBay?

- what methods have people used to turn the pump on/off to conserve energy when it is not needed.... at higher speeds and small steering wheel turns. i.e. relays, SSR, microswitches? tying into the speedo? what?

- considerations for 12v power.... i.e. aprox watts under full load needing a separate or larger dc/dc perhaps?

.....so if you have retained power steering, post your solution, parts, cost, lessons learned, etc.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

dtbaker said:


> thought I would start a thread that may turn into a sticky as we pool experiences in what works for power steering....
> 
> I am just starting a conversion on a Nissan Altima, and will need to retain the power steering. I don't want to try running a pulley off emotor tailshaft since that doesn't give any PS when you need it most (at low speeds).
> 
> ...


EV Works Pty Ltd www.evworks.com.au
Zero Emission Vehicles Australia www.zeva.com.au
I don't have any experience with EV installations but
My son fitted an elect power steering & water pump to his HZ Holden as well as a 12v dc AC compressor,no belts to drive easy swap out.
I installed a Topcool Thermoelectric Heater-Cooler to my ute when the ac failed and it works a treat nearly as cold as an ac with no high pressure hoses or belts and almost instant heating without running the engine, no installation costs. Just flick it on when you need it, they have 2 units an "eco-clima" and "slimline": www.top-cool.eu http://www.top-cool.eu and their modules are really advanced & don't pull heaps of power like other thermoelectric units.If you look at my album you'll see pics of the ac units, I've been looking at them for my Motor Home to replace the 240v ac unit I'm running,also a pic of Motor Home.As for turning the pump off I don't think I'd do that(you"ll end up with air locks in the system), maybe drop the voltage supply to the unit as your speed increases I'm pretty sure thats what my son did,put a magnet & sensor on the tailshaft to a voltage control unit or you could just install a rheostat and do it manually? Hope this helps. Casper10


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Casper10 said:


> EV Works Pty Ltd www.evworks.com.au
> Zero Emission Vehicles Australia www.zeva.com.au
> I don't have any experience with EV installations but
> My son fitted an elect power steering & water pump to his HZ Holden as well as a 12v dc AC compressor,no belts to drive easy swap out.
> I installed a Topcool Thermoelectric Heater-Cooler to my ute when the ac failed and it works a treat nearly as cold as an ac with no high pressure hoses or belts and almost instant heating without running the engine, no installation costs. Just flick it on when you need it, they have 2 units an "eco-clima" and "slimline": www.top-cool.eu http://www.top-cool.eu and their modules are really advanced & don't pull heaps of power like other thermoelectric units.If you look at my album you'll see pics of the ac units, I've been looking at them for my Motor Home to replace the 240v ac unit I'm running,also a pic of Motor Home.As for turning the pump off I don't think I'd do that(you"ll end up with air locks in the system), maybe drop the voltage supply to the unit as your speed increases I'm pretty sure thats what my son did,put a magnet & sensor on the tailshaft to a voltage control unit or you could just install a rheostat and do it manually? Hope this helps. Casper10


I checked them out, both sell p/s pumps also vacuum pumps.
I have a feeling that I saw one some where that sensed pressure drops and cut in on it's own when needed - But where? I'll think of it


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Casper10 said:


> My son fitted an elect power steering & water pump to his HZ Holden as well as a 12v dc AC compressor,


can you post specifics on make/model/source and pictures for the power steering solution set perhaps? otherwise it doesn't do us much good just to know that he did it.




Casper10 said:


> I installed a Topcool Thermoelectric Heater-Cooler to my ute when the ac failed and it works a treat nearly as cold as an ac


mildly interesting, but off topic. I don't care about the A/C, this thread is specifically for power steering.


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Dan,
You would be surprised how well using a pulley with the original p/s pump works off of the front shaft. Of all the times we have tried it you get assist just about as soon as the motor starts rotating and the car starts moving. If the car is an automatic, assist even starts before the car is moving due to the torque converter slip. Of course you still cannot steer the car easily when completely stopped with a manual transmission (unless in neutral or clutch depressed), but shouldn't really be doing that anyhow.
My point is it might be worth trying as it saves an awful lot of electrical issues, especially with current draw.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Dan,
> You would be surprised how well using a pulley with the original p/s pump works off of the front shaft. Of all the times we have tried it you get assist just about as soon as the motor starts rotating and the car starts moving. If the car is an automatic, assist even starts before the car is moving due to the torque converter slip. Of course you still cannot steer the car easily when completely stopped with a manual transmission (unless in neutral or clutch depressed), but shouldn't really be doing that anyhow.
> My point is it might be worth trying as it saves an awful lot of electrical issues, especially with current draw.


hhhmmm, well, I'll definitely consider it.... do you usually just rob the original pulley from ICE? But then, you have to have a belt+idler and fabricate a bracket for the pump, right? do you have any close up pix of your preferred setup off tailshaft?


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Sometimes you can use the existing pulley, sometimes you have to make up a pulley hub with an aftermarket pulley. yes you do need to have some type of adjustment, and more than likely a shorter belt Give me a couple of days for pictures as I am out of town, but I do have one picture here with me, see below.


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## sergiu tofanel (Jan 13, 2014)

I was groping under my brother's HHR's dashboard the other day when I noticed that the vehicle has electric power steering. There is an electric motor integrated into the steering column. I know that this may not be what you are looking for, but it looks like this is the ultimate on-demand system. It only draws power when you truly need it.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Your not really supposed to turn the steering when stationary because it wears flat spots in the tire which causes imbalance in the wheel.
So belt driving the original power steering pump and AC compressor off the motor back shaft would be an acceptable method.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EV-propulsion.com said:


> Sometimes you can use the existing pulley, sometimes you have to make up a pulley hub with an aftermarket pulley. yes you do need to have some type of adjustment, and more than likely a shorter belt.


and what more can you add about the specifics of sensor input needed? do all PS units need input from speedodometer or anything else to figure out how to adjust level of assist, or are they just 'on' when the pulley turns, or ???

I am wondering at what low rpm the power steering would become effective, and if anything has to happen with sensor input for the typical PS to 'freewheel' at higher rpm, or is it more like a centrifugal clutch where it just spins free when its not loaded (while going straight)?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

RIPPERTON said:


> Your not really supposed to turn the steering when stationary because it wears flat spots in the tire which causes imbalance in the wheel.


also puts tremendous strain on steering components, digs holes in the driveway, and rips the tire treads up pretty good.... but, is a common bad habit with people used to power steering on everything these days!


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

I gave you the web sites to go to and have a look & they also list prices and if you went to their projects page you would see it installed.I know that after being a mechanic for over 40 years I tend to forget that other people may not have knowledge of mechanisms, but if the original car had pwr steering all you have to do is bolt the unit down hook up 2 hoses and supply a power wire? It aint rocket science,I only added the bit about the ac and topcool as an fyi not to be belittled over, I will help you no more!!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Casper10 said:


> I gave you the web sites to go to and have a look & they also list prices and if you went to their projects page you would see it installed.I know that after being a mechanic for over 40 years I tend to forget that other people may not have knowledge of mechanisms, but if the original car had pwr steering all you have to do is bolt the unit down hook up 2 hoses and supply a power wire? It aint rocket science,I only added the bit about the ac and topcool as an fyi not to be belittled over, I will help you no more!!


not trying to belittle you Casper... just trying to create a clean thread with associated info specifics and pictures all in one place rather than force people to go hunting... we all value knowledge of various contributors, and we all value our own time as well, so it's nice to collect as much info as possible as focused as possible.

for instance, going to the site and poking around shows me the 12v TRW power steering unit http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=STE-TRW727 .... looks pretty high end with input for speed to reduce output at higher speeds. Its also high priced at $525AU, and can consume up to 1000watts at max pressure.
so this is an interesting data point, but a bit on the pricey side compared to a used one from toyota mr2, or some other vehicle that may be easily found in local junkyards or eBay perhaps.

for instance, the toyota mr2 pumps with resevoir off the later models show up in eBay for $250 usd or so.... questions I have are whether you also have to have the ECU and input tach/speed signals, or just wire up 12v power and let it rip... it does look like it draws enough power that it will require it's own dc/dc


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## EcoReality (Mar 10, 2014)

dtbaker said:


> I am wondering at what low rpm the power steering would become effective, and if anything has to happen with sensor input for the typical PS to 'freewheel' at higher rpm, or is it more like a centrifugal clutch where it just spins free when its not loaded (while going straight)?


Modern manufacturers can complicate just about anything, but hydraulic power steering is extremely simple. All it requires is pressurized fluid, and the power steering pump is a "constant pressure" (as opposed to "constant flow") pump. This means it works as well at idle speed as high speed, with no compensation needed.

Basically, the steering column has a spring-loaded gap such that when you turn the wheel and the steering doesn't move, it actuates a hydraulic valve so that a hydraulic cylinder moves the rack in the proper direction. When it moves it so that the steering is pointed the same as the wheel, the spring unloads the hydraulic valve. It's really quite beautiful, and hasn't changed much in 70 years!

There's lots of stuff on Google, including youTube videos.


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

I would also look at direct electric steering racks (now popular on many small newer cars). 

Has anyone replaced a hydraulic rack with an electric rack?


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## EcoReality (Mar 10, 2014)

gdirwin said:


> I would also look at direct electric steering racks...


Not interested. What about catastrophic failure?

The beauty of the hydraulic system is that it still functions, even if the hydraulic system dies.

I suppose you could do something similar by having switches replace the very simple spring-loaded hydraulic valves, and electric motors to replace the very simple hydraulic cylinder, but to what end?

How many times has your computer crashed in the past year? How many times has that resulted in you smacking into some immobile object at high speed?

The more complex we make something, the less reliable it is. When failure means death, we should probably have LOTS of justification for complicating things!


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> thought I would start a thread that may turn into a sticky as we pool experiences in what works for power steering....


This was done years ago by Dimitri and others:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19505

The MR2 pump is readily available from junkyards and is very reliable. It does have a Vss (vehicle speed sensor) input but is not needed to make it work. It will automatically throttle up when it senses pressure demand (turning the steering wheel) and goes back to idle after a few seconds of no pressure demand. It couldn't be any easier...


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Conversion as carried out on my sons car:

The original power steering pump has been replaced with an electric power steering pump from a late model Toyota MR2. It's powered from the ignition on circuit and through a self resetting 80A circuit breaker & an 80A relay. It is load sensitive & slows right down when it is not being used. 
It also takes the vehicle speed signal from the road speed sensor to reduce the assist as the car speed increases. 

The MR2 power steering pump is a single complete unit including the load sensing & speed sensing electronics. 
It can be plumbed it directly into the power steering rack. The pump is pretty quiet when it idles & has a low whine when it is moving the steering. 
You can wrap the pump in sound absorbing neoprene to reduce the whine at pump idle. With an ICE car, the whine would not be noticeable but an electric car is silent when it is still & even small noises are quite noticeable. The right power steering fluid that is compatible with EHPS units & racks is Penrite SSF.

The conversion is quite straight forward, simply find your mounting point, make up a mounting plate if necessary, bolt it down, run the wiring as above and connect the hoses. Fill the unit with oil and let it run with light pressure on the steering wheel to bleed the system.
Costs for the installation would vary as to wether you purchased a new unit or picked one up on ebay or an auto dismantler. New pipes or hoses would have to be obtained but usually these are fairly reasonably priced.


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

Toyota pump looks really nice. Are there any other EV-proven pumps that might come from European cars? VW, Audi, Peugeot, Renault.. 
Toyota MR2 will be quite rare model here.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi Eldis, eletric pumps are quite common these days Toyota, Nissan, Audi, Mercedes to name but a few,as well you can pick up a variety of units from EV suppliers or automotive performance parts suppliers. Google about and see what comes up, same for vacuum pumps, I picked up a good unit much cheaper than the suppliers a dorman or dormer? unit, I think, less than $80 us.


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## EcoReality (Mar 10, 2014)

Casper10 said:


> eletric pumps are quite common these days


Just keep in mind that they are less efficient than mechanical pumps.

I have no idea if you'd even notice the difference, but EVs are so range-sensitive that it seems to me you'd do everything you could to avoid sucking down the battery.

Mechanical steering pumps are a dime a dozen at the local wrecking yard!


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

EcoReality said:


> Just keep in mind that they are less efficient than mechanical pumps.
> 
> I have no idea if you'd even notice the difference, but EVs are so range-sensitive that it seems to me you'd do everything you could to avoid sucking down the battery.
> 
> Mechanical steering pumps are a dime a dozen at the local wrecking yard!


Yeah mechanical pumps are more efficient,but your running a belt all the time & creating drag on the traction motor plus you don't have p/s at parking speeds. Normally I would go with you, use the kiss system and don't complicate things but with these pumps they drop back to idle when not turning and hardly use any power so I think the trade off is acceptable. One thing that I left out of my earlier post was to install a switch panel so you could cut power to the accessories for servicing ie: the vacuum pump p/s pump, water pump(if fitted) heater etc so that they arn't running while your fixing the lights or wipers etc.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

eldis said:


> Toyota pump looks really nice. Are there any other EV-proven pumps that might come from European cars? VW, Audi, Peugeot, Renault..
> Toyota MR2 will be quite rare model here.


Eldis found this list that might be handy for you, and others:

List of cars that come stock with a suitable electric power steering pump. This list should help anyone who wants to save some money on their conversion know where to look or what to ask for when going to wrecking yards. Please add to this list!

Holden/Opel/Vauxhall Astra
Mini Cooper (2002-on)
Peugeot 307
Peugeot 303
Ford Focus (2012)
Volvo S40
Toyota MR2 (1991-2005) Use Gen3 pump(processor included) not Gen2
Skoda Roomster
Honda
Nissan pathfinder 2013 3.5l v6.
Nissan 300ZX


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Some more info that I found that would be telling on an EV:

The Horsepower drag from the engine driven power steering pump. On an engine Dyno the stock DC5 ps pump and rack uses 8.5 hp peak, while in a straight ahead position. On a lower powered B series the loss was 5 hp peak. The power loss from EHPS is between 0.25 and 0.75 hp (via the alternator), depending on steering load.

Also link to EHPS images,click on images to find suppliers and oem fitment.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...e=univ&ei=0d0jU621J8rqkgXs44HoCQ&ved=0CEUQsAQ


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## DDDvvv (Apr 2, 2012)

Casper10 said:


> Eldis found this list that might be handy for you, and others:
> 
> List of cars that come stock with a suitable electric power steering pump. This list should help anyone who wants to save some money on their conversion know where to look or what to ask for when going to wrecking yards. Please add to this list!
> 
> ...


Take the mazda3 steering pump OFF the list!!

I have one with me right here. The only control it accepts is through its 500kb/s canbus

And pleeaaaaase verify from experience about the rest, especially the newer models, 2007 and up.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

DDDvvv said:


> Take the mazda3 steering pump OFF the list!!
> 
> I have one with me right here. The only control it accepts is through its 500kb/s canbus
> 
> And pleeaaaaase verify from experience about the rest, especially the newer models, 2007 and up.


I found the list on an EV Tech listing and assumed it would be ok with the firm that listed it. Also the idea was for people to add their info so we all know. have added research below.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Mazda 3: electric power..power steering pump..what wires do I..plugs
Resolved Question:
I have a mazda 3 electric power steering pump for an electric vehicle I am building. what wires do I need to hook up to get it to run. I have three plugs. Power & ground I can do. 
Thanks xxxxx
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Mazda 2006/2007 EHPS

Expert: Drew replied 3 years ago.
Welcome to Just Answer. My name is XXXXX XXXXX X will be glad to assist you.

Here is the factory wiring diagram for the EPAS w/ connector views.

The 2 big main spades are the power and ground.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Thanks in advance for the accept.
Drew


Ask Your Own Mazda Question

You do not need the data link. That is to access the module information and retrieve codes.

Drew, Super Mazda Tech.
Category: Mazda
Satisfied Customers: 2517
Experience: 19 yrs. experience. Mazda Senior Certified Tech, with Ford, Linc. & Merc. experience. ASE L1 Advanced Certified Master Tech.
Drew and 6 other Mazda Specialists are ready to help you

This is the info I got and assumed it would be correct,thought he would know what he was talking about
I couldn't paste in the wiring diagram? if you would like it just pm me with your email add and I will send it to you casper10


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

*Ehpas*

"Vauxhall Astra Mk4 power steering pump" is a good ebay search term. It has 4 wires - 

1. power +
2. power -
3. 13.8v signal from alternator, won't run off aux battery voltage
4. ignition live. 

This is the last model before the CAN versions as far as I know, so there are no sensors to worry about. 

They are BIG - need about the dimensions of a shoebox. The bracket has three mount points that are quite far apart. Not for a tight fit.

I am in the process of installing one of these, hope to have it running next week. Some of the above info may prove to be wrong, if so I'll repost.

You can get them off ebay UK for around $40 before shipping (somewhat cheaper than MR2....).

VW polo also uses EHPAS available from ebay UK but rarer and possibly CAN controlled.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ok, so I'm checking back in to try and summarize recent discussions.... 

retaining the mechanical pump and pulley drive just doesn't feel as good to me because of the significant power required to drive it and issues with no assist at very low speeds when you need it most.

In the above posts the MR2 is still listed as a good option, but other research I've been doing indicates the 2005 and newer ones might be better because the oil res is included. Still a bit of a mystery what it takes to actually wire one up as I have not seen any posts including an actual install, and/or what connections are needed other than power.

second most interesting choice might be the epump from a mazda3 as they are quite common.... but it is unclear from several posts above whether they are a good choice just needing power, or need other sensor input to work properly.

so...... I'm looking for some specifics from anyone who has actually used either of these.... pictures, schematics, etc?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

DDDvvv said:


> Take the mazda3 steering pump OFF the list!!
> 
> I have one with me right here. The only control it accepts is through its 500kb/s canbus
> 
> And pleeaaaaase verify from experience about the rest, especially the newer models, 2007 and up.



what 'control' is needed? I guess I am wondering if it is possible to just power it up and run without sensors, or perhaps turn on w/ microswitch/relay on steering column sensing more than 1/4 turn, some other easy way to direct wire speed sensor input, etc.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Casper10 said:


> Here is the factory wiring diagram for the EPAS w/ connector views.
> 
> The 2 big main spades are the power and ground.
> 
> ...



see, this sounds like the mazda3 WILL work just fine just with power.... can anyone confirm this?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

My plan for the Eldorado that I am converting right now is to use this controller, 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-Vue-...PAS-/171027023129?hash=item27d2014519&vxp=mtr

and this steering motor 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-07-Satur...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a384e86d8&vxp=mtr

I will pick up a manual rack and fab this motor into my existing column.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

evmetro said:


> My plan for the Eldorado that I am converting right now is to use this controller,
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Saturn-Vue-...PAS-/171027023129?hash=item27d2014519&vxp=mtr
> 
> ...


The problem I see with that is maintaining the safety features and passing engineering. The column needs to be able to collapse in an impact. You'd probably also have to do the retrofit without cutting or otherwise modifying the shaft, depending on the engineer. Steering is one of those things that you shouldn't really mess with. If an electric hydraulic pump fails, you still have a manual steering rack. If a modified steering column shears, jams, or seizes, you could lose control of the vehicle. It's probably easier to get away with installing this in a hot rod because cars from that era didn't have much safety considerations. It'd probably be a lot more difficult to make the modification in a late model car and get it past the engineer.

Those are my assumptions at least. I certainly like the idea. My only complaint about electric steering columns is the servo sound they make when you turn quickly


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

dtbaker said:


> see, this sounds like the mazda3 WILL work just fine just with power.... can anyone confirm this?


I think the best bet would be to wait until we find someone who has fitted one in an EV or Hotrod etc and made it work. From what I picked up on the net you supply power and earth to the large spade terminals and Alternator current to one of the pins,apparently it can't be battery voltage? I think that this is mean't to be a method of starting and stopping the pump when the engine is running so that the pump doesn't run when the key is turned on, it has to be supplied with 13.8v, I'm sure one of our techie guru's could make up a power supply to output that voltage. Apparently on the Mazda if the alternator cacks itself you lose the power steering!! Could be fun on a hairpin.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

From what I could see in the video, the motor can lose power and the steering still works. Kinda like loosing a belt on a hydraulic pump. 

As an ICAR certified collision tech, I do in fact break the rules on many occasions as far as ICAR theory goes when working on my own projects. On the other hand, I do utilize the ICAR principle that I have learned and practiced over the years as a collision tech. The steering column can be modified and be very safe, but I feel confident that splicing a steering column is not playing by the ICAR rules. This is the beauty of DIY EV conversions. When committees of engineers get together and decide that splicing steering columns or rear body panels and such is prohibited , they most likely are aware that these things can in fact be done, but not but an average tech. The best way to avoid problems is to rule against certain practices altogether. I have met many collision techs that I would not trust to fix my car, let alone cut my steering column in half and weld it back together.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

From what I have found the best EHPS systems seem to be the Toyota M2R Gen3 and the Vauxhall/Astra/Opel TS.
Price point from $55 US to $250 US, both pumps can be run with out the sensors fitted (prob better if you did) and will idle along until sensing load when they will pick up speed then drop off when not needed,a sensor to tell the pump when the motor is running would prob be a good idea,posssibly with a timer in the circuit to allow for the elect motor stopping when you lift off the acc when parking.
Both pumps have written evidence of being installed successfully in EV's. I have a wiring diagram for both the M2R one is here:http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=266&pictureid=1741


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi Casper

I've tried the Astra one but couldn't get it to work. Apparently I got it wrong because the blue/white wire needs a 13.8v signal. Is that what your wiring diagram says? Could you post a link to your diagram for the Astra? Mines a Mk 4.



Casper10 said:


> From what I have found the best EHPS systems seem to be the Toyota M2R Gen3 and the Vauxhall/Astra/Opel TS.
> Price point from $55 US to $250 US, both pumps can be run with out the sensors fitted (prob better if you did) and will idle along until sensing load when they will pick up speed then drop off when not needed,a sensor to tell the pump when the motor is running would prob be a good idea,posssibly with a timer in the circuit to allow for the elect motor stopping when you lift off the acc when parking.
> Both pumps have written evidence of being installed successfully in EV's. I have a wiring diagram for both the M2R one is here:http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=266&pictureid=1741


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yep thats right Sabahtom,

Thin black will be ignition live
Thin blue/white goes to the alternator check light so the steering only works when the battery is being charged,(engine running)
Thick red goes to the battery via a 80amp fuse
Thick black will probably be earth (diagrams list it as brown)

I can't upload the astra diagram,I will have to convert it to a different format. Casper10


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I am seeing mr2 units from 00-05 for around $250-$300, weird that some have reservoirs integrated, and some don't.

also seeing mazda 3 units complete w/ reservoir from $190-$300.....

trying to decide. any opinions?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> I am seeing mr2 units from 00-05 for around $250-$300, weird that some have reservoirs integrated, and some don't.
> 
> also seeing mazda 3 units complete w/ reservoir from $190-$300.....
> 
> trying to decide. any opinions?


 
from what I understand the ones with reservoirs are the ones you want ... they are the newest model often fitted to evs ... someone else please confirm this as I am also waiting to actually order a mr2 pump  ...


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

to Dt & Crackerjackz 
From my investigations trolling thru countless blogs and sites etc the M2R pumps with the resevoir are the ones to use, & have write ups that they have been fitted to EV's and hotrods and performance conversions,also caught up with my young bloke & he used that one himself, he couldn't run original p/steer pump with supercharger. 

The earlier Astra pump has been documented as being used on EV conversion & have read that people have installed MK4 pump - the one with fins on it,but have not seen pics etc. The earlier one has a flat bottom & people have said they only paid $55 to $80US for them?
Food for thought? Wiring for both Astra pumps seems to be the same from the write ups etc,but again have not seen pics of MK4 pump installed. Regards Casper10


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

crackerjackz said:


> from what I understand the ones with reservoirs are the ones you want ... they are the newest model often fitted to evs ... someone else please confirm this as I am also waiting to actually order a mr2 pump  ...


Dt & Crackerjackz,posted a reply but forgot to link it doh,anyway the full reply is in p/s solutions. regards Casper10


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi all.

This thread seems to have gotten away from what dtbaker intended it to be for....

I have some experience in this and have a ton of research behind me.

In short there are 5 options:

1. No assist
2. Hydraulic Power steering (HPS) (belt driven punp)
3. Electric-hydraulic Power Steering (EHPS) (motor driven pump)
4. Electric Power Steering - Rack (EPS)
5. Electric Power Steering - column (EPS)

I have experience with 2, 4 and 5. 

2 is useless in an ev while the motor is at 0RPM. Fine if you are idling. E.g. for an automatic gearbox.

4 I have had working on the rx8. Simply feed the eps controller the relevant canbus (speed and rpm) and it controls the rack assist via a torque sensor at the base of the column and a motor on the rack itself.

Its fused at 60amps but it doesnt really get anywhere near that going lock to lock while static and draws virtually no power once the car is up to speed

The steering works when not powered up, its just heavy. Contrary to some speculation in this thread.

5 I have had working in my 2000 vauxhall corsa b and also a friends ralley car. The eps itself was sourced from a corsa b on both occasions (european hatchback) this is a common eps doner - google it. There is simply a part which attaches to the column, apply 12v and it just works.

Again, the steering works when not powered up, its just heavy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mike


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

skooler said:


> Hi all.
> 
> This thread seems to have gotten away from what dtbaker intended it to be for....
> 
> ...


Hi Skooler, I don't know that the Thread has gotten away from the original intent of Dt, the last couple of posts have basically between Dt & me,answering his questions. Installing EPS is a good option if your vehicle did not previously have power steering or has old style p/s and is worn. If you allready have a p/s rack it is far simpler to install EHPS. I know hydraulics and have worked with them all my life(longer than I like to admit) and it is a simple matter to me but it had to be explained and worked thru with people that had no or limited knowledge,which I think this thread has done,the amount of queries that have been raised is testament to that. Your knowlledge of EPS and that of another contributer, Evmetro has added to that, I for one have a very limited knowlledge of EPS. Now the guys know that they can buy an EPS unit or an Astra or M2R EHPS and bolt it in, and have the wiring diagram as well. Regards casper10


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

*Astra Mk 4*

Hi Casper

So just to confirm, if I'm bench testing my EHPAS by connecting it to another ICE car with jumpers to the battery:

1. blue/white (alternator signal), black (ignition live signal) and thick red (power +) all to the battery + (which would be at 14v with alternator running) 

2. thick black/pink (power negative) to the battery -?


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

*Re: Astra Mk 4*



sabahtom said:


> Hi Casper
> 
> So just to confirm, if I'm bench testing my EHPAS by connecting it to another ICE car with jumpers to the battery:
> 
> ...


Hi Sabahtom, wiring as follows

Thin black will be ignition live - from ign switch
Thin blue/white goes to the alternator check light so the steering only works when the battery is being charged,(engine running)
Thick red goes to the battery via a 80amp fuse
Thick black will probably be earth (diagrams list it as brown) - Battery 12v negative

For your test: 
connect the 2 thick wires to battery as above
connect blue/white to alternator
touch the thin black wire to battery positive and pump should start - sometimes they have a delayed/soft start you may have to hold the thin black on for a few seconds before pump will start.
Regards Casper10.
PS. Leafy just got a Volvo V50 ehps working for EV. See thread Volvo power steering


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

Casper10 said:


> Dt & Crackerjackz,posted a reply but forgot to link it doh,anyway the full reply is in p/s solutions. regards Casper10


Hi All, Just talking(messaging) with Leafy and he has got a Volvo V50 EHPS unit working for EV's. See thread Volvo power steering,thats another one we can file away as usable. Not sure on the wiring yet talk to Leafy to get details.
Regards Casper10


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re: Astra Mk 4*

Hi Casper

Sorry for the many questions. When you say connect to alternator, that would be the alternator positive out? Is it different to connecting to the + terminal of the battery? 

Thanks a lot.




Casper10 said:


> Hi Sabahtom, wiring as follows
> 
> Thin black will be ignition live - from ign switch
> Thin blue/white goes to the alternator check light so the steering only works when the battery is being charged,(engine running)
> ...


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

*Re: Astra Mk 4*



sabahtom said:


> Hi Casper
> 
> Sorry for the many questions. When you say connect to alternator, that would be the alternator positive out? Is it different to connecting to the + terminal of the battery?
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Hi Sabahtom, Don't worry about it only to happy to help,I'll be sucking you guys brains for info soon. The blue/white wire goes to the Alternator warning light connection if it has one,if not connect it to the output terminal. don't really know if it will make a difference for the test,but I would anyway,I seem to remember someone told me that their EHPS didn't work until it was connected to the alternator.I think it has a lot to do with the wiring of the particular vehicle,sometimes the alternator output lead connects directly to the battery & in other vehicles it dissappears into the wiring harness and indirectly gets to the battery. Hope this helps Casper10


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

*Astra Mk4 installed*

It works on battery voltage of 12.7v alone, doesn't need the alternator running.

I tested the steering with the wheels jacked up slightly to avoid wearing out the tyres, it only drew 15A. Not sure how much more it will draw during actual parking. I plan to use 13.2v to power it.

Either my test was inaccurate or the suggested 80A fuse is a bit big.


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## Casper10 (Mar 8, 2014)

*Re: Astra Mk4 installed*



sabahtom said:


> It works on battery voltage of 12.7v alone, doesn't need the alternator running.
> 
> I tested the steering with the wheels jacked up slightly to avoid wearing out the tyres, it only drew 15A. Not sure how much more it will draw during actual parking. I plan to use 13.2v to power it.
> 
> Either my test was inaccurate or the suggested 80A fuse is a bit big.


Hi Sabahtom, Thats great news,I was only going off wiring details and feedback,must only need alternator connection to sense that the motor is running. The 80amp fuse seems to be a standard sizing as they all list it? and the diagrams I have all say 80amp. Anyway who cares it goes! thats the main thing and now we know that we can use the Astra MK4 EHPS unit,that makes 5 units that we have proof of operation in EV's so it will make it easier for the guys to purchase one. Thanks for the info and good luck with the rest of the build. Casper10


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## eldis (Sep 3, 2013)

I just got a power steering pump from the VW Polo 2002 (being used on large amount of European vehicles - Skoda, VW, Seat, Audi). It is CAN based (which I don't mind, since there are many CAN-based modules in my conversion). 

I just need to find the right packet to turn it on. Is anyone using those?


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Just to add ... I officially bought / installed a opel first generation power steering pump ... Very easy reliable design ... Wiring as stated in this thread  thanks everyone  ...


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

My father owns an old heavy 1 ton truck and it does not have power steering. Just need to move slowly or rock to turn the wheel if stuck.

Might I recommend trying your car without power steering, there are usually manual steering options that will fit most cars and the feel for me is excellent compared to the feather touch on the one car I own that has power steering.

That said both of my EVs and one of my ICE's are both manual steering and manual brakes, I have no complaints and the simplicity is wonderfull.

Cheers
Ryan


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

*Re: Astra Mk4 installed*



sabahtom said:


> It works on battery voltage of 12.7v alone, doesn't need the alternator running.
> 
> I tested the steering with the wheels jacked up slightly to avoid wearing out the tyres, it only drew 15A. Not sure how much more it will draw during actual parking. I plan to use 13.2v to power it.
> 
> Either my test was inaccurate or the suggested 80A fuse is a bit big.


Amps = torque in an electric motor, so I wouldn't be surprised if it draws significantly more current under load.


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## Rastusmalinus (Sep 26, 2011)

How do you know if you're getting a Gen2 or Gen3 MR2 pump? Are there specific model years?


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

crackerjackz said:


> Just to add ... I officially bought / installed a opel first generation power steering pump ... Very easy reliable design ... Wiring as stated in this thread  thanks everyone  ...
> View attachment 19029


Hi Cracker, can you let me know what fuse and relay you're using for this unit?

_edit_: actually no need for a relay because the Astra one can be connected straight to the battery via a fuse, then have the 12v sense wire connected to the ignition....I just wasted a bunch of time trying to find a relay that would fit this.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

sabahtom said:


> Hi Cracker, can you let me know what fuse and relay you're using for this unit?
> 
> _edit_: actually no need for a relay because the Astra one can be connected straight to the battery via a fuse, then have the 12v sense wire connected to the ignition....I just wasted a bunch of time trying to find a relay that would fit this.



Your 100 % right ... No relay needed  soft start when you connect alternator wire and on wire at the same time so no power surges like crazy  ... Im using a 50 amp fuse running great so far for test ... I can upgrade up to 70 without having to change anything but the fuse since i used a big block automotive waterproof fuse holder


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## sabahtom (Mar 1, 2011)

crackerjackz said:


> Your 100 % right ... No relay needed  soft start when you connect alternator wire and on wire at the same time so no power surges like crazy  ... Im using a 50 amp fuse running great so far for test ... I can upgrade up to 70 without having to change anything but the fuse since i used a big block automotive waterproof fuse holder


Ok thanks. Can you let me know about your EV's weight distribution? Mines got about 1100kg on the front tyres, being a minivan. I might need a bigger fuse.


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## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

sabahtom said:


> Ok thanks. Can you let me know about your EV's weight distribution? Mines got about 1100kg on the front tyres, being a minivan. I might need a bigger fuse.



Dont know yet lol ... Waiting on batts from evwest to finalise the build  lol anyday now


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## puddleglum (Oct 22, 2008)

I've been toying with the idea of converting a Saturn Ion and came across this while investigating the problems of using the EPS system without having a engine or ECM. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171733694488 Has anyone seen it before or tried this in a conversion? I found a couple of YouTube videos on it, but that's it. If it worked well it would add another easy power steering option. Any thoughts?


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## Immo1282 (Jul 12, 2019)

Definitely a necro - but if I may jump in and say Hi over from the T-Bar 

The fact the F/TF has EPAS definitely simplifies things - Producing a couple of errant signals is a lot more straightforward than fitting a hydraulic pump in my book... the plan with my TF is to leave as many stock systems intact as possible, including the EPAS...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Before you get too far into this topic ask yourselves "Do I need power steering" - am I that much weaker than my mum?? and my aunts??

Small cars simply don't need power steering


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Before you get too far into this topic ask yourselves "Do I need power steering" - am I that much weaker than my mum?? and my aunts??


You might also ask "did my mum's old car have the same steering ratio as the car I'm converting, and am I okay with four turns of the wheel lock-to-lock?"



Duncan said:


> Small cars simply don't need power steering


No size of vehicle absolutely *needs* power steering - even large trucks didn't have it if you go back far enough, and I have friends who drove full-sized city buses with manual steering. The more relevant issue is what produces the desired driving characteristics in the car which is being built.

I didn't own a power-steering vehicle until 2004, but I'm glad that all of my current vehicles have it, including my compact car. I wouldn't put it in a small track car, but would want it in most street-driven vehicles, especially those that are front-heavy.


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## Immo1282 (Jul 12, 2019)

Duncan said:


> Before you get too far into this topic ask yourselves "Do I need power steering" - am I that much weaker than my mum?? and my aunts??
> 
> Small cars simply don't need power steering


Fair enough - but in the case of the MGF/TF that talkingcars and myself both own and want to convert - it's a system that's so trivial to hook up (one signal line to the EPAS controller), it's almost silly not to restore the system to original functionality.

I've read that owners of the F/TF occasionally pull the EPAS fuse if they want to drive with manual steering - though for street only use, I'd never turn it down... There are too many multi-storey car parks and narrow winding streets where I live that make power steering definitely nice to have. Sure I don't need it - but let's say my Mum or aunt ever end up driving my conversion  Won't regret hooking it up then.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

To all of the people saying that power steering is somehow more comfortable

I understand that getting into a proper car after one of today's low effort machines is a bit of a shock
But after a few minutes driving you will get used to the feel of non power steering - and you will not notice the loads any more


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## talkingcars (Oct 12, 2018)

I guess the answer to my question was no.

Sorry, ignore that, regular members of the forum won't see my previous posts......


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

The only problem I see is that today's steering wheels are soo teensy anymore there is no mechanical assist. The manual box I have has a 16" diameter one. The GOLF I have has 10"


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## talkingcars (Oct 12, 2018)

Duncan said:


> To all of the people saying that power steering is somehow more comfortable
> 
> I understand that getting into a proper car after one of today's low effort machines is a bit of a shock
> But after a few minutes driving you will get used to the feel of non power steering - and you will not notice the loads any more


One of my proper cars is a 1989 MG Maestro fitted with a 200bhp 2.0L 16v turbo engine, it doesn't have power steering and nor do I want to fit it, it is a driving car. I previously had an 1986 Austin Maestro 1.6L had PAS which was useful as I used for the car for driving instruction.


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## retrEVnoc (Mar 23, 2019)

Here is a darn good webpage outlining converting to Electric- Assist power Steering. I'm planning to do this on my project (S10) and have already pulled the steering column out of a Prius. I think it's likely the most electrically efficient.

https://www.therangerstation.com/ho...oyota-electric-power-steering-eps-conversion/


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## mane9 (Dec 1, 2018)

I've been struggling to make Citroen C2 EPS to work with my BMW E9. It fits nicely and we have machined the tierod ends to fit the car. This EPS should work in limp-mode without can-bus messaging from the usual BSI unit (Citroen main computer), but in my tests it's not doing anything. There seems to be two problems.

1) ECU is not sending out 5V voltage to torque sensor
2) When sending 5V and ground to torque sensors, the reading of the torque output is constant 0,3 and 0,4V, when it should be 2.5V on both sensors.

This document provides all the data for this setup: https://exxotest.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/GU_MT-DAE_EN.pdf 

So I think both, ECU is broken and torque sensor is broken. To fix this, I have bought another rack and another ecu, but they too have the same problem.

Reading the internets I found someone searching for used C2/C3 rack, but he got a reply from junk yard that most of them stopped selling these, as they are all bad. Probably torque sensor gets too much forces in crash and breaks, and maybe it shorts and breaks part of ECU too. Not really keen to buy a third one... But if I could get this working, it would be cheap and nice solution for many ev-conversion vehicles, as it's small enough.

Seems that everybody is going for steering column EPS, but that does not fit to E9. Space between steering wheel and firewall is too short for that. So I need a solution where the motor is in the rack.. But not sure if any working/good solution exists for that. 

Any ideas? Mini R55 rack could be nice and fast, but then again I have no idea how to wire that.


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