# [EVDL] OT: Welding



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> > I'm using this welder:
> > Craftsman 85a Wire Fed MIG Welder 934-20111
> > Century manufactures the craftsman #20111.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Seth,

I am running a Miller unit with a gas mix. For steel thickness of 1/2 inch 
thick, I use 70 percent voltage and 70 percent wire feed with a medium 
temperature 0.035 wire. For 1/4 to 3/8 inch, it is 50 percent voltage and 
50 percent feed. For 1/8 inch, it is 30 percent voltage and 30 percent feed.

When doing sheet metal in the 18 to 22 gage, then I use a 0.022 wire at 30 
percent voltage and 30 percent feed. To get a very smooth weld, I use 
different shape cones, that allow me to lay the cone right on the work and 
slide it along which gives a very smooth bead. You can even get a cone with 
roller wheels on to do a factory type auto weld.

A lot of professional welders, normally run up a higher voltage and higher 
speed for more or a production type of welding, which in result the ripple 
type of weld you see that they may grind down. In aircraft and race car 
welding, it is not allow to do any grinding. Therefore we go a little bit 
slower for this type of welding.

A flux core wire will leave spatter on the metal. If you are doing fine 
type welding on angle brackets, this spatter is hard to get off in the tight 
corners with a multiple layer disk, that is design to grind welds.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:20 AM
Subject: [EVDL] OT: Welding


> Is only very slightly OT...almost necessary
> for EV building....I need to learn to weld.
> The person who sold me the welder said
> "practice, practice, practice" - YouTube said so also.
>
> I am not able to take a class at my local
> community college at this time, and it looks
> like it's reasonable to try, and then ask.
>
> Maybe some experienced folks will recognize
> immediately if I need thinner wire, more juice, less feed,
> better quality scrap metaal, etc.
>
> I'm using this welder:
> Craftsman 85a Wire Fed MIG Welder 934-20111
> Century manufactures the craftsman #20111.
> with .030 flux core wire.
>
> All appropriate safety precautions have been implemented.
>
>
> I tried with a piece of old bedframe,
> hit it with an angle grinder first.
> Then I tried with a piece of angle iron
> that didn't appear to have rust.
>
> I get a spark, but it is not sustained.
> It feels like a woodpecker when I touch the metal.
> The piece looks pock-marked.
> At other times, trying to lay a bead, I get the wire fused
> to the metal, but not a bead by any means.
>
>
> One question is, do I need to weld for this project?
> ( I think it's a cool skill to pick up 
>
> My friend is an engineer, he recommended drill and bolt.
> "A weld creates a weak spot. Drill it and bolt it.
> Drilling makes a weak spot also...you need to de-burr the hole."
>
> He has no experience with hand held wire welders.
> (His experience is with stick welders or with robotic welders 
>
>
> Thanks
> Seth
> PS If anyone who knows welding is passing through Passaic, NJ....
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you are feeding the wire too fast or too slow, it will cause trouble.
Try adjusting the wire speed -- on my little lincoln wirefeed I find that
around 3.5 is good for just about everything (1 to 10 is the adjustment).

For testing -- weld a few pieces of angle iron together, then beat them with
a sledge hammer till they break -- that'll give you a good feel if you are
getting deep enough penetration (the tendency with wire feed welders is to
make a superficial surface weld to begin with till you learn how to go slow
enough to make it penetrate.

After learning to weld, I would rarely use bolts any more -- it's sooooo
much easier in most situations to make assemblies welded, then just use a
bolts to attach them to other assemblies where you want it to be removeable.

Z



> John G. Lussmyer <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> > > I'm using this welder:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Seth,

You can teach yourself... I did. It takes a lot of practice and 
varying your technique until you get it right. A friend of mine that 
took classes at a local trade school said he should have spent the 
money on a better welder. All they do is make you practice, and give 
you a few tips you could have read off a one page instruction book.

Here's a couple of tips:

I find an auto-darkening helmet essential. If you don't have one, get 
one. Even a cheap one will be better than starting your arc blind. A 
decent one should give you the ability for adjust sensitivity and shade.

Avoid welding rusty of painted metal. Use an angle grinder or wire 
brush.

Tack weld your structure first. Double check for square before making 
solid welds.

Make sure your ground clamp is making a good connection. Use your 
angle grinder to expose bare metal if needed.

Use a piece of scrap metal of the same thickness to adjust your 
amperage and wire speed. Try to get a nice arc going.

Avoid trying to weld material above your welders rating. You won't 
get the base metal hot enough. The wire will just bead up on the 
surface. This might be what your experiencing.

When first starting a weld, don't immediately start moving your gun. 
Let it get a chance to start a puddle.

Once you have a puddle use a slight zig zag pattern while moving your 
gun. It will help spread the weld out.

Practice, practice, practice.

One note: If this a 115V welder you may want to just trade up to a 
230V model. I never had luck with 115V welders. Their ratings are 
alway, as Lee Hart would say, marketing propaganda, or downright 
lies. If it says it will do 1/4" metal, chances are it will do 1/8" 
fine, and barely work on 1/4".

I'm about an 1.5 hours North of you in Saugerties, NY (about 60 miles 
North of the NJ/NY border). If your in a bind I would be happy to 
help you out. I can weld/cut just about anything you would need.

Roger





> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> 
> > Is only very slightly OT...almost necessary
> > for EV building....I need to learn to weld.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Second the suggestion to get an autodarkening helmet. Even a cheap harbor
freight one is tons better than not.

My wirefeed is 115vac, and it does very well, I think. But, I've never had
need to weld steel over 3/16". Mostly lot of 1/8" stuff, steel pipe, etc.
I can tell that it's suffering when I have it at the end of a 200 foot
extension cord -- setting D turns into the equivalent of normal setting B
then, so you are limited to 1/8" at max. For thicker stuff (cast iron too)
I've heated it red hot with a MAPP torch, then used the wirefeed on it, with
success... though I wouldn't recommend that long term -- oxyacetalyne would
be what you should use for that.

Z



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Seth,
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Agree with the below. The autodarkening helmet is a real plus --- unless
you've been doing it for 20 yrs daily (then you can weld by feel.)

I've used the heating trick to some success - I guess. The welds never
broke.

Make sure the material is clean of rust / paint / oil.





> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Second the suggestion to get an autodarkening helmet. Even a cheap harbor
> > freight one is tons better than not.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

All great suggestions here. They are right practice is the key. It's mostly
about balance between the wire speed, heat, and your movement speed. Your
description of trouble sounds like you either need to turn up the heat and
move faster, or slow the wire speed down. I fully agree with getting an auto
darkening helmet if you don't have one but a modern 100 volt mig welder will
easily weld anything you need to on a car. Don't worry about upgrading to
220. If you need to do something over 1/4 inch, get a TIG. I do suggest
ditching the flux core and getting a tank and solid core though.

One thing I want to add though is that Flux core wire is more difficult to
learn with and will never give you a good looking weld. It also puts off a
smoke and spatter that keeps you from being able to see the weld pool. Also
if you are using flux core, make sure the polarity is correct. Flux v/s
solid has to be wired different. If you have to polarity backwards it will
spatter horribly and the weld pool will sit on top rather than penetrate
well.

So... check your polarity and slow down the wire speed.

Stub



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Welding

Seth,

You can teach yourself... I did. It takes a lot of practice and 
varying your technique until you get it right. A friend of mine that 
took classes at a local trade school said he should have spent the 
money on a better welder. All they do is make you practice, and give 
you a few tips you could have read off a one page instruction book.

Here's a couple of tips:

I find an auto-darkening helmet essential. If you don't have one, get 
one. Even a cheap one will be better than starting your arc blind. A 
decent one should give you the ability for just sensitivity and shade.

Avoid welding rusty of painted metal. Use an angle grinder or wire 
brush.

Tack weld your structure first. Double check for square before making 
solid welds.

Make sure your ground clamp is making a good connection. Use your 
angle grinder to expose bare metal if needed.

Use a piece of scrap metal of the same thickness to adjust your 
amperage and wire speed. Try to get a nice arc going.

Avoid trying to weld material above your welders rating. You won't 
get the base metal hot enough. The wire will just bead up on the 
surface. This might be what your experiencing.

When first starting a weld, don't immediately start moving your gun. 
Let it get a chance to start a puddle.

Once you have a puddle use a slight zig zag pattern while moving your 
gun. It will help spread the weld out.

Practice, practice, practice.

One note: If this a 115V welder you may want to just trade up to a 
230V model. I never had luck with 115V welders. Their ratings are 
alway, as Lee Hart would say, marketing propaganda, or downright 
lies. If it says it will do 1/4" metal, chances are it will do 1/8" 
fine, and barely work on 1/4".

I'm about an 1.5 hours North of you in Saugerties, NY (about 60 miles 
North of the NJ/NY border). If your in a bind I would be happy to 
help you out. I can weld/cut just about anything you would need.

Roger





> Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> 
> > Is only very slightly OT...almost necessary
> > for EV building....I need to learn to weld.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks EVeryone for the tips.
I did get the auto-darkening after one
try with the regular helmet.

I'll probably get another shot tomorrow.

Funny quote...my wife asked me about
wearing a helment for my work.
I told her if she sees the helmt, she can't
look at what I'm doing. (it's a secret.)

I just need to stand between me and
any possible viewers.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is like looking into the sun.
You can do for a very brief period
but if you are exposed too long then
you feel the UV "sunburn" on your retina
the entire night, just as comfortable as
an ordinary heavy sunburn on your skin
but if you do it too often with more serious
consequences... 
So yes, do warn everyone who is around when
you are welding that they should protect
their eyes when they want to continue looking
and be able to see afterwards.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Welding

Thanks EVeryone for the tips.
I did get the auto-darkening after one
try with the regular helmet.

I'll probably get another shot tomorrow.

Funny quote...my wife asked me about
wearing a helment for my work.
I told her if she sees the helmt, she can't
look at what I'm doing. (it's a secret.)

I just need to stand between me and
any possible viewers.

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Seth:

One last comment to add to the very good advice you've been getting 
about your welding practice trials:

Those old bed frames can cause problems. I would not recommend that you 
use them for your finished products where strength and durability matter.

I've been pulling them off the street for years, and they are fine for 
practicing and for projects around the house, but the quality of the 
metal varies widely and is usually horrible. They are full or chunks of 
iron and nobody knows what. There are no standards whatsoever for what 
they are supposed to be. I've seen them be extremely porous, brittle 
enough to shatter, sometimes really nice just like purchased mild steel, 
you name it. They are the recycled newsprint paper of ferrous metal, and 
just can't be trusted for composition or quality. Still, they're free 
and you need the practice, so don't let that stop you!

Usually, they create problems with my metal cutting bandsaw and drill 
bits, because sometimes there are really, really hard spots in them, but 
often enough there are metallurgical issues that make getting a nice 
bead on them difficult at any amperage. That could be a cause of your 
problems.

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I get a spark, but it is not sustained.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]
> > > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At 08:00 AM 26/05/2009, you wrote:

>


> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]
> > > > wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a Miller 140 and it works ok but the duty cycle is short (like 
30%) and I find I have to limit the length of the welds and do in 
sections. Wish I had bought a 230V machine.
John

Dave King wrote:
> At 08:00 AM 26/05/2009, you wrote:
>
> 
>>


> Tim Humphrey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Rothenberg <[email protected]
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks EVeryone! just need to get out there
and try again.

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