# DIY Project using 18650 cells?



## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Anyone in Europe used 18650 with approval for the car? I had a look over this CALB LiFePo modules which turns out in a very heavy battery pack (bad kg/ KWH). Any way to show safety in an conceptional way or do I need to buy packs from Kreisel in Austria?


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## Boxster-warp (Jun 22, 2014)

Hallo
Why you dont use Tesla Model s Moduls.
How many voltage have your Car.
Grüße Boxster-warp


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

A Tesla Module has no safety approval (e.g. IEC 62133), only the entire pack with the Moduls, build into a Tesla. A battery module normally needs a safety approval. This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB.
I plan to go with 96 V.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB


I don't know anyone who's building with CALB's today. Most conversions are using Tesla, Leaf, or Chevy packs because they are a fraction of the cost of CALB's and much safer than DIY 18650 packs.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

OliverH said:


> A Tesla Module has no safety approval (e.g. IEC 62133), only the entire pack with the Moduls, build into a Tesla. A battery module normally needs a safety approval. This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB.


While many DIY EV conversions have used CALB cells, I've never seen one use a complete CALB module. Are you saying that using a complete module has become common in Europe?

On CALB's US and international sites I see only one car-sized EV module, which is nominally rated at 310 V and 66 Ah (so only 20 kWh from a large 245 kg pack).



OliverH said:


> I plan to go with 96 V.


Are you saying that you found a 96 volt version of a commercially-produced module, or that you want to run only 96 volts instead of this CALB 310 volt pack?

Kreisel appears to offer packs for vehicle manufacturers; it doesn't look like they are offering to sell a single pack to a DIY conversion builder.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> Anyone in Europe used 18650 with approval for the car?


Conversion requirements for EV's vary greatly within the countries of Europe. For example The Netherlands requires CE certified components and Ireland requires nothing.

Can you add your location to your profile and tell us more about your requirement so that we can provide relevant advice? Is this for a DIY conversion or a commercial conversion?


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

I’m from Switzerland. All over Europe UN ECE 100 is valid:
https://publications.europa.eu/de/p...e6b47-d767-11e4-9de8-01aa75ed71a1/language-de
CE labelling (safety of machinery, certificate of confirmity) is usual.

This is for production in lots/ series. What about an inspection/ single approval?


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

brian_ said:


> While many DIY EV conversions have used CALB cells, I've never seen one use a complete CALB module. Are you saying that using a complete module has become common in Europe?
> 
> On CALB's US and international sites I see only one car-sized EV module, which is nominally rated at 310 V and 66 Ah (so only 20 kWh from a large 245 kg pack).
> 
> ...


This CALB Moduls of 3,2 V can be grouped in series to get the voltage and in parallel to get the necessary capacity.

In Germany you get this modules from companies like Heiko Fleck or Denis Murschel. I’m not a fan of this because of their low power density/ high weight.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

OliverH said:


> This CALB Moduls of 3,2 V can be grouped in series to get the voltage and in parallel to get the necessary capacity.


Those are not what is normally called "modules"; they are simply individual cells. If your concern is approval for a complete battery package (with protective devices and housing), the CALB cells are no different from any other cell (including an 18650), since they don't include the battery management system, pack-level protective devices, or housing.



OliverH said:


> In Germany you get this modules from companies like Heiko Fleck or Denis Murschel. I’m not a fan of this because of their low power density/ high weight.


*Murschel Electric Cars*
Unfortunately, Google Translate thinks that this page is already in English, so it won't translate it for me, and I can read very little German. It appears that they do conversions, so they assemble packs, and they might supply a complete pack for your own conversion, but that's a guess. It doesn't seem to have much technical information (or it is buried in text so I'm not finding it), so I can't tell what cell type they are using.

*Fleck Electroauto*
The energy storage page specifies LiFePO4 cell chemistry, which will have lower energy density than the types of lithium cell now used in production EVs. If they use LiFePO4 for EVs, that would explain your concern.

The Fleck site leads to *ecap Mobility*. The ecap site provides almost no information, so they could be using any cell chemistry.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> I’m from Switzerland. All over Europe UN ECE 100 is valid


Different versions of ECE 100 are enforced in different countries within Europe. That's why you get different requirements for CE testing and certification in Ireland and The Netherlands (for example).



OliverH said:


> This is for production in lots/ series. What about an inspection/ single approval?


You should probably talk to Anne at New Electric (here). They have been through the process of testing and certifying various EV components and you will probably need that if you're undertaking series production in Switzerland.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Those are not what is normally called "modules"; they are simply individual cells. If your concern is approval for a complete battery package (with protective devices and housing), the CALB cells are no different from any other cell (including an 18650), since they don't include the battery management system, pack-level protective devices, or housing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ECap is the company doing marketing for both companies. And yes they sell LiFePo.


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## Boxster-warp (Jun 22, 2014)

Hello
Heiko Fleck is top.
He sell Tesla Moduls too, and the BMS for the Moduls.

96v System Are 5 modules, wheigt 127 kg without water.
For the 144v System you Need 7 modules.

What Car you whant Build?
Greetings Boxster-Warp


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

It‘s a T2b Westfalia. Original with Typ4 Motor and the 081/CP gear box. I‘m currently in the phase building options to sort out the solution up to the end of summer. I‘ve a sabbatical this year and like to use the time for Restauration/ preparing the chassis. Therefore I need to know which battery solution will fit in.
I‘ll have closer look with Heiko Fleck, try to visit Kreisel and Heik Fleck in my Austria holidays (Salzburg area) and will talk to Anne from the Netherlands.
BMS / charging is an other issue to sort out. Plan is to get at least 200 km distance with a single charge. Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

OliverH said:


> Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?


Nope.

That's about the best you could expect a small sportscar to get. Borderline motorbike territory.

400-800 wh/km at highway speeds maybe. A full size van is around 800-1000. A Tesla is closer to 400.


You're shoving a turd through the air fast, it takes energy to move the air out of the way of the turd brick. No getting around the physics of it, no drivetrain optimization is going to escape the air resistance physics that dominate at highway speeds.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Nope.
> 
> That's about the best you could expect a small sportscar to get. Borderline motorbike territory.
> 
> ...


My Tesla Model X is between 160 (urban roads) and 260/270 Wh (fully loaded with 6 persons, 3 bicycles on the bicycle carrier). On the weekend I need to draw the drive resistant graphs and motor power curves on this to get a better feeling.


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

My 5 cents: My T2ab with pop top has a 35kw engine (original specs, but old engine so might be a bit less nowadays) weighs about 1500kg with all the camping stuff in it and does 110 km/h max. So its 350 wh/km at a 110km/h. I’m guessing 250 Wh/km on average keeping transmission and all just swapping the engine to electric. 


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?


I will be able to give you real world figures for a comparable vehicle in the near future;

1967 VW Split Screen Van - "ICE Breaker"


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

aquabiologist said:


> My 5 cents: My T2ab with pop top has a 35kw engine (original specs, but old engine so might be a bit less nowadays) weighs about 1500kg with all the camping stuff in it and does 110 km/h max. So its 350 wh/km at a 110km/h. I’m guessing 250 Wh/km on average keeping transmission and all just swapping the engine to electric.
> 
> 
> Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk


That’s close to my guess. The Cw x a is our enemy with such cars.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I will be able to give you real world figures for a comparable vehicle in the near future;
> 
> 1967 VW Split Screen Van - "ICE Breaker"


So cool. But a T1 is lighter and narrower than a T2


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Consumption looks like to be 280 @ 80 km/h, 380 Wh @ 100 km/h and round about 400 Wh @ 110 km/h resulting from a short look on driving resistance diagram.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> a T1 is lighter and narrower than a T2


It was lighter until we added the batteries 

Zero EV (here) are about to start converting a number of T2 vans for a customer... they will offer a kit based on the Tesla 'small' front drive unit


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> It was lighter until we added the batteries
> 
> Zero EV (here) are about to start converting a number of T2 vans for a customer... they will offer a kit based on the Tesla 'small' front drive unit



Good hint. But... I searched the web for gear ratio (rear drive unit) and performance figures of the Tesla motor. The wheels on our Bullis are way to small. The power/ speed curve goes north and doesn't cross the drive resistant curve. This means you allways have a high duty cycle or white smoke in the mirror 

If someone has a torque curve of the front drive unit/ motor I can simulate this in a drive resistant diagram.


But this is brilliant stuff for an other build thread.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Coming back to the question of the thread. Just to give a comparison (theoretical result from kg/ kWh) without casing, carrier to hold the cases, no BMS, no busbars,.. - prismatic/ cylindrical cells only:


Prismatic LifePo CALB CA180FI
50 kWh = 495 kg
75 kWh = 742,5 kg


Prismatic Samsung SDI 622 94Ah
50 kWh = 300 kg
75 kWh = 450 kg


Cylindrical NCR18650B
50 kWh = 198 kg
75 kWh = 297 kg


Tesla 2170 (Model 3) cell weight is based on a guess, not possible to source right now.
50 kWh = 156 kg 
75 kWh = 234 kg


Kreisl Electric from Austria offers complete packs of cylindrical cells:
50 kWh = 205 kg
75 kWh = 307,5 kg


Note: The weights may differ to reality. All calculations are based on Internet searches.


If converting from ICE to EV the battery weight and volume needed is crucial. In case of a Baywindow T2b with Type 4 engine the weight difference is resulting in round about 200 kg (realistic 250 kg with all cables and bits and pieces) for a 75 kWh set up.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> Note: The weights may differ to reality. All calculations are based on Internet searches.


12 modules from a 100kWh Tesla battery will weigh 800lbs (360kgs);

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970993&postcount=192

This figure does not include wiring, plumbing, or the battery box.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> In case of a Baywindow T2b with Type 4 engine the weight difference is resulting in round about 200 kg (realistic 250 kg with all cables and bits and pieces) for a 75 kWh set up.


I think that's very optimistic... here are some figures based on weighing my bus during the conversion;

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=946042&postcount=125

In a couple of weeks time I'll weigh the bus again and provide an update. At that time most of the fabrication will be completed and I'll just be waiting for the battery module installation.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

OliverH said:


> Coming back to the question of the thread. Just to give a comparison (theoretical result from kg/ kWh) without casing, carrier to hold the cases, no BMS, no busbars,.. - prismatic/ cylindrical cells only:
> 
> 
> ............
> ...


 Model 3 cells have been reported (EPA report) as being 4.8Ah, 3.75 v nominal, and since all other 21700 cells come in at 68-69 gms/cell, its pretty obvious that they are the same energy density (W/kg) as previous Tesla 18650 cells.
So the weight of any particular capacity group of cells will be the same in either 18650 or 21700 format. Pack volume will also be similar.
But of course less interconnects , buss bars, etc etc for the 21700s.


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## aquabiologist (Sep 8, 2017)

OliverH said:


> Coming back to the question of the thread. Just to give a comparison (theoretical result from kg/ kWh) without casing, carrier to hold the cases, no BMS, no busbars,.. - prismatic/ cylindrical cells only:
> 
> 
> Prismatic LifePo CALB CA180FI
> ...



Lithiumstorage in Switzerland sells a lifepo prismatic cell with 165 Wh/kg. 

So according to the OliverH list:

50kWh = 303 kg
75 kWH = 454 kg

http://www.lithiumstorage.eu/images/Produkte/ETC-Series/ETC-LFP277AH.pdf






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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

OliverH said:


> The wheels on our Bullis are way to small.


The Tesla based conversions typically run with wheels in the 16" to 19" range. With a huge rev range and more torque than you'll ever need I don't think you'll have a wheel size problem unless you go very small.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The Tesla based conversions typically run with wheels in the 16" to 19" range. With a huge rev range and more torque than you'll ever need I don't think you'll have a wheel size problem unless you go very small.


I‘ll post a Diagramm in my other thread to show how Power is far away from Drive resistance curve. With an other gear ratio/ bigger tires you can get it more efficient.
This drive units are just amazing.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The Tesla based conversions typically run with wheels in the 16" to 19" range. With a huge rev range and more torque than you'll ever need I don't think you'll have a wheel size problem unless you go very small.


Wheel size is not relevant, tire diameter is. I have taller tires in the f250 on 16" rims than the golf on 18" rims


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

piotrsko said:


> Wheel size is not relevant, tire diameter is. I have taller tires in the f250 on 16" rims than the golf on 18" rims


That’s I was talking about. Bigger tire, a tire with more cm/ inch on one turn/ a bigger diameter, are resulting in a longer gear ratio. With the tires/ rims you can do some kind of fine tuning.
I’m just looking into the issue of drive units with their promised ratio of 9,x:1. Makes no sense because the curve goes more or less straight to the top. Two possibilities: A bug in my formula or the gear ratio is not over all (reduction and diff). Also tried it with tire dimensions of the Tesla Model X. Wired.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

OliverH said:


> That’s I was talking about. Bigger tire, a tire with more cm/ inch on one turn/ a bigger diameter, are resulting in a longer gear ratio. With the tires/ rims you can do some kind of fine tuning.


True, but I don't see why any of this is in the "DIY Project using 18650 cells" discussion.



OliverH said:


> I’m just looking into the issue of drive units with their promised ratio of 9,x:1.
> ...
> A bug in my formula or the gear ratio is not over all (reduction and diff). Also tried it with tire dimensions of the Tesla Model X. [Wierd].


The published ratios (different for large and small motors) are correct, are overall (ratio of motor speed to axle speed), and are appropriate for these Tesla models.



OliverH said:


> I’m just looking into the issue of drive units with their promised ratio of 9,x:1. Makes no sense because the curve goes more or less straight to the top. Two possibilities: A bug in my formula or the gear ratio is not over all (reduction and diff). Also tried it with tire dimensions of the Tesla Model X. Wired.


Perhaps it is just the terminology, but "the curve goes more or less straight to the top" makes no sense to me as a description of a problem. Oliver, can you please post about this in your motor/gearbox thread, or a separate new thread? I'm sure it can be quickly sorted out.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Karter2 said:


> Model 3 cells have been reported (EPA report) as being 4.8Ah, 3.75 v nominal, and since all other 21700 cells come in at 68-69 gms/cell, its pretty obvious that they are the same energy density (W/kg) as previous Tesla 18650 cells.
> So the weight of any particular capacity group of cells will be the same in either 18650 or 21700 format. Pack volume will also be similar.
> But of course less interconnects , buss bars, etc etc for the 21700s.


That looks like a very rational and sensible observation. The Tesla Model 3 pack follows the Model S/X pack design in general, but simplifies it with larger (and so fewer) cells and more cells in series per module (and thus fewer modules). It also attaches some supporting equipment to the top rear of the pack (fitting under the rear seat) and so eliminates some complexity of the previous separate mounting of these parts; this further simplifies the vehicle, but will affect pack weight comparisons, making a fair comparison more difficult.

The era of the 18650 format in new production EVs appears to be essentially over, as Tesla has moved on to the 2170 format (except for the legacy S/X models), and no other major EV manufacturer uses them. Of course people will be salvaging Tesla Model S/X packs for years to come.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Tesla have committed to the cylindrical cell as a proven, reliable, established manufacturing process with high quality confidence.
However , most other auto manufacturers are not following suit, generally choosing various pouch or prismatic cells of much larger capcity.
Energy density (260 ish Wh/kg) and power density have not improved much for many years, dispite lots of noise and hype from various quarters ( the 3400mAh , 18650 cell has been commercial ffor almost 8 yrs) .
Its worth noting that even companies like Toyota who are active in many areas of battery development and manufacture still consider the NiMH cell to be the best choice for their pure hybrid cars based on its combination of energy density, power density, cycle life, reliability, cost, etc ( whilst they use Various lithium chemistries in other PHEV vehicles )


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

brian_ said:


> The era of the 18650 format in new production EVs appears to be essentially over, as Tesla has moved on to the 2170 format (except for the legacy S/X models)


This is a good point and I wonder when we will see peak 18650 production.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> The era of the 18650 format in new production EVs appears to be essentially over, as Tesla has moved on to the 2170 format


Nitpick Tangent - I don't get why everyone uses the 5-digit reference for 18650s and the 4-digit reference for 2170s. Actually, I don't get why 1865 wasn't the nomenclature to begin with. The last digit doesn't make sense to me, it changes the magnitude of the unit.

18650s are 18mm diameter, 65.0mm long.
21700s are 21mm diameter, 70.0mm long.

And for lithium primaries, the order is switched. Your motherboard batter is a CR2032, 32mm diameter, 2.0mm thick.

It should've been "1865" from the start, and "2170". But we say "18650" and "2170" instead of "21700".

...

In any case, tool manufacturers have started switching to 2170s too, since they're starting to parallel up so many cells anyway.

Older ones:
DCB120s are 3-cell packs (18650) ("12" means 12v).
DCB201s are 5-cell packs (18650) ("20" means 20v).
DCB204s are 10-cell (5s2p) packs (18650).
DCB606s (flexvolt) are 15-cell pack (18650) ("60" means 60v). They're 5s-5s-5s with mechanical 3Pole2Throw series/parallel switch, 18650.

But the new ones:
DCB206s are 10-cell (5s2P) packs, (2170).
DCB609s (flexvolt) are 15-cell (2170).

The flexvolts are a curious case. They say on them "Shipping: 3x 40wh". So to duck shipping regulations (max size that can be flown) they technically call it 3 separate batteries because there are 3 separate strings in series. And for shipping, they have a locking tab that holds the 3PDT switch half way.


...

18650s are too big for laptop batteries nowadays (too thick), so, if they're not going to be used in cars, not going to be used in laptops, and are being at least somewhat phased out for 2170s in tool packs... they're going to go production-extinct soon. We'll still see recycled cells sold as USB chargepacks and the like for another 15 years, but, nothing new is using them, at least nowhere near the scale they used to be.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Nitpick Tangent - I don't get why everyone uses the 5-digit reference for 18650s and the 4-digit reference for 2170s


I agree, but that's what they're calling them.



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> DCB609s (flexvolt) are 15-cell (2170).
> 
> The flexvolts are a curious case. They say on them "Shipping: 3x 40wh". So to duck shipping regulations (max size that can be flown) they technically call it 3 separate batteries because there are 3 separate strings in series. And for shipping, they have a locking tab that holds the 3PDT switch half way.


The switch is in this design to change the pack configuration between operating voltages. Someone cleverly took advantage of that for shipping. 



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> 18650s are too big for laptop batteries nowadays (too thick), so, if they're not going to be used in cars, not going to be used in laptops, and are being at least somewhat phased out for 2170s in tool packs... they're going to go production-extinct soon. We'll still see recycled cells sold as USB chargepacks and the like for another 15 years, but, nothing new is using them, at least nowhere near the scale they used to be.


There are also all of those flashlights and e-cigarettes... and applications where they are usually used singly, so cell matching doesn't matter. The only 18560 cells that I own are in flashlights, and only one of the flashlights is a 2-cell (the rest are single cell).


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

One of larger remaining markets for 18650s is the Ebike which is growing rapidly worldwide. China sells millions every year with Asia, India, and Europe catching up. Only in the past few years have the cheap ebikes migrated to lithium from SLAs
Top end expensive Ebikes already have 21700 cell packs but It is still much more expensive than the 18650 size due to the huge surplus production capacity for 18650s now that laptops are dropping the format, and cost is king in those low value Ebike markets. with 50-80 cells in each pack, the mass millions of cheap Ebikes will use the 18650 for many years yet.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Jehu just did a tour of an 18650 recycling business in Philly.






What's interesting to me is that, this whole business is just a massive parallel operation of what individuals are doing at home. There's no special equipment, just, many multiples of it. 20 bench power supplies to charge odd packs. 300 Opus/Zanflare capacity testers. Soldering irons, bins, worktables.

Pretty neat.


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Had today a closer look into state of the art (Tesla/ Panasonic 2170(0)) which seems to have opened the door of 300+ Wh/ kg. The upcoming NCM 811 cylindrical cells are often referenced as the possibility to get 300 Wh/ kg and 100 EUR/ kWh for the mainstream manufacturers (Samsung SDI, SK Innovations, LG Chem,..). Also the Chinese companies like CALT are known to follow the Chinese gov targets for 2020/ reaching the target before 2020. 2nd half of 2018 and 2019 will give us some capacity improvements and price drops. Rumours are telling that a german manufacturer has a system cost of 120 EUR/ kWh. System cost not cell cost only.

The question is how long someone is able to wait with his conversion or when someone thinks the right moment is there to do the battery investment for his conversion. I think it's based on the target of needed capacity and max. possible weight of the battery.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

OliverH said:


> Had today a closer look into state of the art (Tesla/ Panasonic 2170(0)) which seems to have opened the door of 300+ Wh/ kg. .....


 ?? What makes you think that ?


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Karter2 said:


> ?? What makes you think that ?


Based on values I found on the Web. If cell weight is wrong the Wh/ kg can be different. But the Tesla 2170 is said to be the highest energy density battery on the market.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

21700 cells all weigh around 68-70 gms. (And Panasonics 20700 weighs 63 gms)
That and a capacity of 4.8 Ah an nominal voltage of 3.7 volts , puts the energy density at 260 Wh/kg...
..the.same, or less than, some 18650 s have been for some time.

What weights and capacity did you assume?


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

I had found a value of 5750 mAh for the Tesla 2170.


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

OliverH said:


> I had found a value of 5750 mAh for the Tesla 2170.


Found where ?
Known data for the model 3 battery pack is as follows......
4416 cells total in the "75" kWh long range pack.
( 78.3 kWh actual and 350 v nominal, reported to the EPA )
Configured 96s x 46p
So each cell has 17.73Wh energy capacity
@ 3.65 v nominal that gives 4.85 Ah capacity.

Note.. 
If they were 5.75 Ah cells, that would mean a 93kWh pack capacity......which Tesla would certainly advertise !


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## OliverH (May 27, 2018)

Thanks for giving trustable values.


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