# I need 100mile range. battery options?



## WCRiot (Nov 25, 2007)

Hey guys,
I'm back and hopefully for a while. If work doesn't kill me.

I was gonna bite the bullet and build a ev with the standard lead acid battery setup that most go with. 40 miles of range is typical form these setups.

Unfortuantely 40 miles of range usally means more like 20 miles of range to get a decent DOD. Also based on more realistic driving conditions. I don't want to have to worry about coast more just to save range, although I naturally do this driving now.

What would it goes to use Lion batteries?
What about Lithium polymer?
Nicads?
Has anyone used Toyota Prius batteries?

What are my options for batteries? and what is the price difference. Please provide a link or reference to back up your claim. We can all say it is going to cost $40,000 in batteries to do what I want. Which is fine. but I just want to see some hard evidence of this.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

WCRiot said:


> What would it goes to use Lion batteries?
> What about Lithium polymer?
> Nicads?
> Has anyone used Toyota Prius batteries?
> ...


Li-Ions aren't worth their explosive tendencies http://www.google.com/search?q=lapt...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a.

The best price/performance batteries I've found have been Lithium LiFePO4s http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=1_17 These guys include BMS and the charger with their cells. I don't know what you're converting, but their packages range in price from $9346 (128V 90 Ah) to $25590 (256V 160 Ah).

People mention that NiCad B6000 cells are great for EVs, but good luck finding any. The best NiCads I've ever used (personally) have been from SR Batteries http://www.srbatteries.com/cprcsp_i.htm, but they make Lithiums look cheap ($19.50 for 1.2V 5Ah / $39,000 for 120V 100Ah).


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## WCRiot (Nov 25, 2007)

ClintK said:


> Li-Ions aren't worth their explosive tendencies http://www.google.com/search?q=lapt...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a.
> 
> The best price/performance batteries I've found have been Lithium LiFePO4s http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/index.php?cPath=1_17 These guys include BMS and the charger with their cells. I don't know what you're converting, but their packages range in price from $9346 (128V 90 Ah) to $25590 (256V 160 Ah).
> 
> People mention that NiCad B6000 cells are great for EVs, but good luck finding any. The best NiCads I've ever used (personally) have been from SR Batteries http://www.srbatteries.com/cprcsp_i.htm, but they make Lithiums look cheap ($19.50 for 1.2V 5Ah / $39,000 for 120V 100Ah).


Question: Aren't the current hybrids running Lion batteries?
What about the Lion Polymer batteries?
What are some of the EV's that are going to hit the market in the next 5 years running?


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## Wiredsim (Jul 4, 2008)

> Question: Aren't the current hybrids running Lion batteries?


No they are currently using NiMh batteries, and rather small packs at that. Unless you get an aftermarket PHEV mod, then they may add more NiMh or switch to Lithium($$$).



> What about the Lion Polymer batteries?


The problem with current Lithium Polymer is they aren't available. Early designs had problems with high internal resistance and low cycle life(500 cycles), since then manufacturers have claimed significant improvements, which I do not doubt. However these new designs do not seem to be on the market in appropriate sizes or prices for EVs.



> What are some of the EV's that are going to hit the market in the next 5 years running?


Who knows! What we do know is that supposedly there are a ton of companies claiming battery breakthroughs that will hit in the next 3-5 years. I honestly do believe that we will see considerable improvements in prices on these next generation batteries. But that is not here nor there, this is a DIY community that by large wants to do something right now, not wait for the car manufactures finally offer a interm solution.

The reality is that in order to get a 100 Mile range you will need to be SMALL and LIGHT and fairly SLOW. Look at some of the other threads discussing this very issue. The simplest answer is for any normal road car to get a realistic 100 mile range at normal speeds you are going to need NiMh or Lithium.

Why do you need a 100 mile range? Is your commute really 100 miles one way? Could you charge at work?


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I have mentioned this before but I have a book that says "Promising New Battery" A lithium based battery . Copyright of book 1980 !!! Well they are here if you got a bank roll . J.W.


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## WCRiot (Nov 25, 2007)

Wiredsim said:


> No they are currently using NiMh batteries, and rather small packs at that. Unless you get an aftermarket PHEV mod, then they may add more NiMh or switch to Lithium($$$).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said about the range in my first post. If you have an ev that is capable of 40 mile range a 50% DOD will only get you 20 miles of range.

Assuming you don't care about DOD: a 40 mile range capable car, driven where i live. HIlls and 40 m.p.h street speed limit will go to 20 miles of range most likely exceeding the DOD.

You probably think I'm crazy but the inclines of the hills where i live are 3 miles of road close to 15% grade at some points. Now leaving home, I could literally roll down the hill except for the 6 stop signs till i hit the main road.

I could use an EV just to run errands around the neighborhood and I might do this as a first timer.

The way to my work is 23 miles highway. No EV with 40 mile range can make it because the drag put on the car at high speeds. Now, I have thought about taking surface roads but that would turn a 30minuite car ride into a 45min - 1 hour car ride depending o the time of day.

I could charge at work but then I would pay peak hours for electricity.

So to go from home to work I would need 46 mile range with highway driving and getting up hill on the way home.

This doesn't include the driving i do while at work. Getting lunch, picking up parts and delivery parts occationally.

This is why I wanted a 100 mile range EV and I am not willing to have a SLOOOOOOWWWW EV. I was willing to pay up to 10 grand just for batteries to obtain the 100 mile range.


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## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

what you want is possible,just not for that price.....yet.the batteries you would need will cost over 20k at the moment.the prices are coming down quickly though.patience is not a virtue,it is a neccessity. good luck with your project!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

joseph3354 said:


> what you want is possible,just not for that price.....yet.the batteries you would need will cost over 20k at the moment.the prices are coming down quickly though.patience is not a virtue,it is a neccessity. good luck with your project!


WELL SAID!

When people mention anything above 50 or 60 miles, the first design step should be figuring out the budget for batteries.


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

WCRiot said:


> If you have an ev that is capable of 40 mile range a 50% DOD will only get you 20 miles of range.


 Guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when range figures are computed, they don't assume full discharge of the batteries. It wouldn't do any good to work from range numbers that are based on unuseable electrons. Range figures assume an 80% DOD, and even take the Pukey Effect into consideration. So an EV with a 40-mile range truly has a 40-mile range under nominal conditions. It sounds to me like a range of 55 miles would suite your needs just fine.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Range is estimated by calculations, but measured by real world data of actually driving it. Real world, its hard to keep WH/mile constant.


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> Range is estimated by calculations, but measured by real world data of actually driving it. Real world, its hard to keep WH/mile constant.


 Right, but my point is that the range figures we (attempt to) use reflect real world conditions, and are therefore emmininently useable for determining suitability. The range figures we use are not the absolute farthest, one-shot, battery-destroying figures the OP seems to think they are.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Astronomer said:


> Right, but my point is that the range figures we (attempt to) use reflect real world conditions, and are therefore emmininently useable for determining suitability. The range figures we use are not the absolute farthest, one-shot, battery-destroying figures the OP seems to think they are.


 
So you put into account rolling resistance, hill grade and estimated number of hills (up and down), number of possible stop lights in a given distance?

or is this flat, highway driving at constant speed that you're "figuring"?

Sure you can estimate, but estimate in a 25% over fudge factor.


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## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

Frodus, I'm not claiming that it's possible to take absolutely everything into account when estimating an EV's range. That's not even my point. I'm merely pointing out that range estimates, problematic as they are, attempt to take into account far more than the OP seems to think, and that a 90KWH battery pack isn't necessary for a 45-mile per day commute. He doesn't need the 100-mile range he thinks he does just to make it to work and back.


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## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

Hello WCriot,
I share many similar concerns with respect to range, slightly different requirements, but the same basic complaint, how to get sufficient range with initial outlay economy. I drive an easy 60 miles a day 26 to 30 each way depending on route. Fortunately I am the business owner, so if I want to charge at my shop, I have easy access to whatever flavor of electricity I need, up to 400 amps at 480. Obviously the demand charges at that rate would make my Jeep far cheaper to operate.

Back to the range issue. As I research affordable options to address a minimum working range (ie with a reasonable DOD) of 40 miles one way, I find the option of a range extending genset worthy of consideration. The genset would not be as efficient in terms of SFC per KWh out, however, as it is not intended to be the prime mover, nor expected to provide the lions share of energy for the mission range, the ammortized genset KWh operational costs would still be more economical than a regular IC equiped car.

I entered data from a Cummins gen set PDF file into a spreadsheet to determint KWh per gallon yeild, KWh per mile, trip distance (range), average speed (for parametric purposes), time of commute, get set output, cost of gas, and an efficiency of 75% to account for charging losses. I purely guessed at the 75% value as that has been often quoted with respect to charging efficiency. I suspect that this low, because in this configuration, you are running in series rather than taking the hit of charging then discharging as you do in normal PEV cycles.
Assumtions:
Commute: 24mi
Ave spd ~47 mpg (really not an important value, the average KWh per mile is the argument used in calcs.)
KWh/mile:0.3 (300 watt-hour per mile)
Gen set fuel cost $3.48 (what I saw at the gas station 8-21-08)
Gen set output: 5.5 KW
Computed values.
KWh/gal, which yielded KWh cost.
Gen set contibuted KWh, which yeilded fuel cost for trip.
Lots of other stuff along the way, but would just clutter up an already long post.

Conclusions:
For a 24 mile commute, at 300 watt-hours per mile, you need 7.2 KWh. The time of the commute is nominally 1/2 hour (0.51 hrs), gen set efficiency at 75%, Battery KWh used 5.09, Gen Set contribution is 2.11 KWhs, at a cost of $1.69, or about 7.3 cents per mile.

Base on the above Gen set info, even though the SFC at full (5.5KW) load is 0.95 gal/hour, which yeild an equivilant fuel economy of only 19mpg, because it is only contributing, rather than doing it all, the overal fuel economy is still tolarable, approximately 49 mpg.

If my gut is right, and we can use 90% instead of 75% for Gen set efficiency (this is only the efficiency of getting the energy from the generator to the controller, the generators overall efficiency is accounted for by the SFC, and is material only in terms of cost per KW generated), then the numbers improve a bit.

If genset eff. value is 90% then the fuel economy is unchanged, remember, the assumption is that it produces 5.5 KW and uses 0.9 gph, the changes are in Batt pack KWh used and Genset contribution.
Given a 90% genset to contorller efficiency, then the battery pack will only need to supply 4.57 KWh instead of 5.09, or about 10% improvement.


Now, after all that, one can consider a purpose build series or parallel hybrid. Riley's XR3 is one that seems to have combined a lot of good ideas, and appears to be a valid option. At this time, I am considering it as a possible answer to my own commuting needs. I have a few concerns that have not been answered regarding the XR3, but even if all I do is buy the plans as an educational investment, the concepts, resources, and other intangables may be well worth the $200.

I am very intersted in hearing from anyone who actually bought the plans and is building now.


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## WCRiot (Nov 25, 2007)

I will have a more detialed reply over the weekend, no time now. But, the grade i said was incorrect. The last mile 3/4mile is about 8% grade with the rest of the grade being closer to 3%.
I dont think this would change my range concerns much.


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## Schmism (Aug 16, 2008)

Why arnt pusher trailers more common?

So its unreasonable to expect 100m range out of a 100% true EV. (at least not for some reasonable cost) why not build a 40-50m trailer and double or triple your current mpg out of your gas car.

If it meant i could build a EV pusher trailer for a reasonable cost, and start reaping its benefits right away while i wait for battery tech to evolve, and 3-5 years down the road do the full 100% conversion i wanted.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Astronomer said:


> ...and even take the *Pukey* Effect into consideration.


Now that's funny! 

ga2500ev


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## toppowerbattery (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi friend ! LiFePO4 battery pack is the best choice for you . 

You can contact me [email protected] or visit www.chinatoppower.com 

You will find what you want there !


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