# BASF promises 10x leap for NiMH Batteries



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Could we be looking for amps in all the wrong places? BASF has demonstrated NiMH with energy density equal to LiIon, and expects two more doublings...

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/535251/old-battery-type-gets-an-energy-boost/


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

'we' don't care much what chemistry, just cheaper and lighter.
NiMH will in fact catch fire, that article is incorrect, and they self-discharge at high rates and have poor charge efficiency. 
Battery 'breakthoughs' are announced every few months...in a lab.

It is Zinc-Air that is the real promise yet to be realized...outside a lab.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

nimblemotors said:


> NiMH will in fact catch fire, that article is incorrect, and they self-discharge at high rates and have poor charge efficiency.


Taking your arguments in order...

To be fair, they most often do not catch fire under the 'normal use' scenarios which have gained LiIon notoriety for catching fire. Nothing is truly fireproof. 

The self-discharge rate is definitely higher than LiIon, but is that really an issue for cars used almost daily? I doubt the loss would be noticeable to your pocket book - you could just as easily say that your fuel cost might go from $0.20/gallon to $0.30/gallon (effective cost for comparison to gasoline). I truly doubt the difference would be that much, but even if it were it would be almost unnoticeable to most folks over a year.

Same type of argument for the poor charge efficiency - if you reduce the up-front capital costs (the biggest hurdle for most buyers) but the cost of "fuel" is $0.30 per gallon compared to $2.50 per gallon for an ICE vehicle or $0.20 gallon for an EV using LiIon, most people would say the fuel cost difference between the NiMH and LiIon is indistinguishable over a year.



> Battery 'breakthoughs' are announced every few months...in a lab.


That's why this is the news section of the forum. It is for people who like to keep abreast of what is happening. Even one more doubling of their demonstration, converted to the market place, would displace LiIon as the price/performance leader and bring EVs within the budget of far more people than today - or an increase in range for vehicles like the Leaf, which I cannot use today because the range is not sufficient for my commute.



> It is Zinc-Air that is the real promise yet to be realized...outside a lab.


A 10x improvement would be icing on the cake. We really only need one more doubling of performance at the same price as current LiIon for EVs to go mainstream (the "tipping point").


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Zinc- air is more of a solid fuelled fuel cell than a battery. You need a zinc refinery as a recharger...


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Moltenmetal said:


> Zinc- air is more of a solid fuelled fuel cell than a battery. You need a zinc refinery as a recharger...


You need to do a little research my friend, but really so far just promises..
Here, let me get you started..

http://fluidicenergy.com/
The combo of these innovations are supposed to deliver a metal air battery that can be recharged, has high energy density (amount of energy that can be stored), and is inexpensive. If the battery was used in an electric car, it could have 400 to 500 mile range for the price of a lead acid battery. The ARPA-E site says the battery is shooting for 5,000 charge and discharge cycles. Friesen says in the video that the battery is the first proven, high-cycle rechargeable metal air battery out there.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

That was the single weirdest website I have ever seen. I saw lots of claims, but nothing there that demonstrates that these guys are any closer to a high efficiency durable rechargeable zinc-air secondary battery than that (alleged) scam artist in California Mike Cheiky's former company ZPower.

The chemistry is fraught with difficulties for rechargeable use. These difficulties are like the ones with hydrogen- they are highly resistant to wishful thinking. Impossible? No, I wouldn't go that far- but I'll believe it after I've seen proof in production and service and not a minute sooner.


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