# [EVDL] Air Conditioning



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've been trying to get a good discussion going on this topic on the
DIYEC forums but thought I would ask here as well. I live in South
Carolina and am about to start my conversion (as soon as a few small
parts arrive) and am trying to figure out the best way to maintain my
air conditioning.

I'm converting a BMW 318 and would like to drive the A/C compressor and
PS pump with a small DC motor. I understand that if I power this motor
from my traction pack that I will be loosing range. What I need help
with is finding either a 1-2hp DC motor that will run at pack voltage OR
a 1-2hp 12V motor that I can run off of either an extra 12v battery or
the vehicles 12v system itself.

I've done several searches and only found on or two examples online but
I'm sure that more of you have AC than that! Does anyone have ideas that
can help me through this part of my conversion planning?

Thanks!
Ben in SC
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You will impact range no matter how you power the AC. Perhaps the
weight of an auxiliary motor to power an AC system will reduce range
more than powering it from the traction pack? Certainly the capability
of setting up the system in the conversion pretty much as it was in
the original should make it easier to do. Note: I haven't done it.



> Ben <[email protected]> wrote:
> > .
> >
> > I'm converting a BMW 318 and would like to drive the A/C compressor and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I've got A/C on my car. I used the tail shaft on the ADC 9" motor to
pulley drive it just like the ICE did. I don't have enough data yet to
tell you how it affects my range.

I would think running it from your main pack is more efficient that
through a DCC converter.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:32:33 -0400, "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >I've been trying to get a good discussion going on this topic on the
> >DIYEC forums but thought I would ask here as well. I live in South
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Ben,

It is better to run the PS and A/C off separate motors. My electric PS 
takes about 14 amps at 14.5 votes and the A/C takes about 17 amps at 29 
volts which I have two 1.75 hp treadmill motors gang together to drive the 
A/C at about 2400 rpm.

I do not drive the A/C with the 12 volts, but rather off the main battery 
pack using two DC-DC converter in series set at 29 volts, instead of a motor 
control adjusted for that voltage. I can still pull off 14.5 volts off 
these converters if need to.

The two small thread mill motors work better for me, because I could not get 
in a 1.5 HP DC motor that was about 7 inches in diameter and 13 inches long. 
Could have use a ADC motor to drive these accessories, but anyway you look 
at it, you are still taking power from the battery which reduces your range.

When the A/C system is up to the high pressure cutoff, the A/C relay which 
normally turns on and off the A/C clutch, is use to operated a standard 
Bosch 12 volt 75 amp relay that is use to cycle the electric A/C motors.

You could retain the A/C clutch which is control by the A/C high pressure 
switch and let the motor run all the time at no load or even run a vacuum 
pump that has a internal vacuum relief in it like the one that are use on 
diesel vehicles.

I find it is best to have the PS on a different motor. To control my 
electric power steering, I glue on a small roll of magnets on the steering 
shaft that go about 45 degrees from center. The signal is pick up with 
standard magnetic switches we use in security alarm systems. Anytime I am 
steering in a straight line to either direction up to 45 degrees, the PS 
pump stays off. Over 45 degrees it comes on.

I later added a off delay relay to control another Bosch relay to keep it on 
longer for about 15 seconds after I come back to 45 to 0 degrees. This keeps 
the PS motor from short cycling if a person do a lot of turning of the 
steering wheel when parking.

I can also run the A/C with its clutch, a Vacuum Pump and Alternator off the 
pilot shaft of the main motor. The PS is separate electric driven.

At first I design the alternator which is a 7 wire type for external 
controls, to turn off the regulator in the alternator so as to give me more 
free wheeling when going down a hill.

I also using another inline electric clutch on the main motor pilot shaft to 
drive the accessories as a backup if any of the drive motors fails, and also 
provides some REGEN.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 1:32 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Air Conditioning


> I've been trying to get a good discussion going on this topic on the
> DIYEC forums but thought I would ask here as well. I live in South
> Carolina and am about to start my conversion (as soon as a few small
> parts arrive) and am trying to figure out the best way to maintain my
> air conditioning.
>
> I'm converting a BMW 318 and would like to drive the A/C compressor and
> PS pump with a small DC motor. I understand that if I power this motor
> from my traction pack that I will be loosing range. What I need help
> with is finding either a 1-2hp DC motor that will run at pack voltage OR
> a 1-2hp 12V motor that I can run off of either an extra 12v battery or
> the vehicles 12v system itself.
>
> I've done several searches and only found on or two examples online but
> I'm sure that more of you have AC than that! Does anyone have ideas that
> can help me through this part of my conversion planning?
>
> Thanks!
> Ben in SC
> ANDERSON SCHOOL DISTRICT FIVE NOTICE: This email may contain business 
> related information that is
> PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL. If you have received this email in error, this 
> does not
> constitute permission to examine, copy or distribute the accompanying 
> material.
> If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately 
> or call 864-260-5000.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

NJ, thanks for tackling this issue. It's been a problem for many EVers 
for a long time.

My car isn't running yet, so aircon is not my first priority. But I'll 
want it ASAP after I've got the EV Grin.



> Neon John wrote:
> 
> > What pack voltage?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I also have treadmill motors with nameplate voltage
ratings of 96V and 132Vdc that go up to 2.5HP.
$30 plus $15 for shipping.
I can send more details if you're interested.
Thanks,
Rod


> --- Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >with is finding either a 1-2hp DC motor that will
> > run at pack voltage OR
> > >a 1-2hp 12V motor that I can run off of either an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rod,

What is the physical size of the motors? My pack voltage is 144V so I guess the 132vdc will be okay via a contactor? Any issue with inrush current?

Thanks,
Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Rod Hower
Sent: Mon 7/28/2008 7:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Air Conditioning

I also have treadmill motors with nameplate voltage
ratings of 96V and 132Vdc that go up to 2.5HP.
$30 plus $15 for shipping.
I can send more details if you're interested.
Thanks,
Rod


> --- Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >with is finding either a 1-2hp DC motor that will
> > run at pack voltage OR
> > >a 1-2hp 12V motor that I can run off of either an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Have you looked at the Masterflux Sierra compressors? They are
> designed to run on high-voltage DC.
>
> <http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/>
>

The Sierra line of MasterFlux DC compressors are used in a DC powered marine 
unit here http://glacierbay.com/products/dcbreeze.htm as well as a number of 
trucker after market units. The dcbreeze runs off a convenient 12 or 24 VDC 
and cost $2,495. My hope is that the Sierra compressor can be retrofitted 
into a standard automotive AC system. MasterFlux has specs for there DC 
compressors on their website. I also fired off an email to an Air 
Conditioning engineer I know to see what he thought.

Here is the spec sheet for the dcbreeze:
Capacity (high) 5,000 Btu/hr
Number of speeds 3
Input Voltage Choose 12vdc or 24vdc
Input Current (high) 48 amps @ 12v, 24amps @ 24v
Blower forward impeller, 280 CFM (high)
Duct Size 3"
Reverse Cycle no, cooling only
Control manual (std), digital (optional)
Cooling sea water (pump included)
Condenser 90/10 Copper-nickel, nickel plated exterior
Enclosure 100% stainless steel w/graphics wrap
Dimensions* 20.15L x 11.37W x 10.25H
Weight 48 lbs.

The sea water cooling could be interesting in an EV.


I've been trying to get a distribution contact or some pricing from 
MasterFlux for a few weeks now (background activity #15). Left another 
message with Kevin, their sales rep today. I'll let you all know when I hear 
from him.

Here is an interesting report on DC powered compressors for EV's.
http://www.glacierbay.com/Darphtm.asp

Charlie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Weathers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Air Conditioning


> NJ, thanks for tackling this issue. It's been a problem for many EVers
> for a long time.
>
> My car isn't running yet, so aircon is not my first priority. But I'll
> want it ASAP after I've got the EV Grin.
>
>


> Neon John wrote:
> >
> >> What pack voltage?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Doug Weathers wrote:
> ...
> > Have you looked at the Masterflux Sierra compressors? They are
> > designed to run on high-voltage DC.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Today you can get compressor from MF for $500 and inverter
for $800, but the inverter, while usable as is really should
get re-done.


WAIT!!
What's the inverter for? These are supposed to be DC compressors! Are they
really AC compressors with an inverter?? I which case it's really not what I
will be looking for.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >On Jul 28, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Neon John wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's about 3.5 to 4" diameter and about 11-12" long
including the motor shafts. I'll post some pics on my
website, but the desktop keeps shutting down (it has
the pics, i'm on the laptop now). i'm pretty sure
Roland is using these (I sold him 5 over a year ago,
he can correct me if i'm wrong).
Rod


> --- "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Rod,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Send me some pics, if you take paypal I'll take one to try. Any idea how hard it is to add a pully to one?

Thanks again!
Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Rod Hower
Sent: Mon 7/28/2008 9:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Air Conditioning

It's about 3.5 to 4" diameter and about 11-12" long
including the motor shafts. I'll post some pics on my
website, but the desktop keeps shutting down (it has
the pics, i'm on the laptop now). i'm pretty sure
Roland is using these (I sold him 5 over a year ago,
he can correct me if i'm wrong).
Rod


> --- "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Rod,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,

My pack voltage is 144V. What kind of price range are you expecting with your setup?

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Neon John
Sent: Mon 7/28/2008 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Air Conditioning



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >On Jul 28, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Neon John wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Matrixel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> Have you looked at the Masterflux Sierra compressors? They are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:26 -0400, "Mark Grasser" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:44:56 -0400, "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >John,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I want to see a EER 11 car AC with at least 2 ton (24,000 BTU/HR) capacity.

That is about 7kW, after compressor and motor losses! You would drain
a traction pack in no time, no driving required!

-Morgan LaMoore



> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:04:49 -0400, "Matrixel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:26:20 -0500, "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >> I want to see a EER 11 car AC with at least 2 ton (24,000 BTU/HR) capacity.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Take a look at www.vintageair.com
They have all kinds of A/C systems for autos even if they didnt originally 
have A/C as an option.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There's a couple of pictures of two different types of
treadmill motors here,

http://picasaweb.google.com/rodnhower/ElectricVehicleParts
Rod


> --- "Willis, Ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Rod,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:20:55 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Air Conditioning
> 
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:26:20 -0500, "Morgan LaMoore" <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> > >> I want to see a EER 11 car AC with at least 2 ton (24,000 BTU/HR) capacity.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:24:46 -0400, Phil Marino <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >Neon- you can't compare power and energy. Power has units of watts, and energy is in joules ( which is the same as watt-seconds, or in watt-hours, or KWH).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry if this is covered already, I am getting further behind with 240K
of listmail a day.

I think we should start looking at the denso compressor they use in the
prius. It is 3phase AC so needs an inverter and special oil, but getting
rid of the shaft seals and being a scroll compressor, it is really small
and is very efficient.

The trick is where do we get an inverter? I would love to have a unit
that varies the speed based on load, stopping and starting was an ICE
left-over.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,
How did the spray foam work out for you? I tried some and the steel
rotted out lickety split. It seems the stuff is slightly hydroscopic.
My idea was to fill some cavities to make the assembly stronger. The
rot made them weaker. :-(

.
>
> In my old step van and again in my current motorhome (Class C, Chevy
> van-based) I made liberal use of foam-in-a-can to seal up air leaks between
> body parts and stuff. Painted to match, it looks very OEM.
>
>>

-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:38:17 -0400, "storm connors" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >John,
> >How did the spray foam work out for you? I tried some and the steel
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] air conditioning*

I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air conditioni=
ng with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV. Why in th=
e world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife happy=
with our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop laugh=
ing and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a 3000=
watt inverter and then to a small portable vent window air conditioner???=
Stay warm while answering the question.
By the way, I have gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the winte=
r, so I am easy to please, but my wife is another story.


=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

This is completely understandable. I almost never use the AC in my ICE, but
I'm not the "averge driver", either.

When you think about it, don't the big car makers face the same problem?
They've got to market to "the average driver", who insists on these kinds of
features. Which makes an all-electric car just about infeasible.

Gotta ask Tim-what part of the country do you live in???? 


Chuck
[email protected]
http://www.chuckles.net
http://www.gullwinglabradors.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tim Moore
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] air conditioning


I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air
conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV.=
Why in
the world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife
happy with our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop
laughing and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a
3000 watt inverter and then to a small portable vent window air
conditioner??? Stay warm while answering the question. By the way, I have
gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the winter, so I am easy to
please, but my wife is another story.


=

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Charles E Shultz Jr


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > When you think about it, don't the big car makers face the same problem?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Yes you can! I saw a news cliping a wile back of a guy that did not want to 
spend 2,500 to fix his air in his Honda so he put a hole in the roof & a 
window air unit above it, run one little 12 volt batt. & a inverter to run 
it. It worked great. That is what I am going to do in my truck for air when 
ever I get the extra money to convert it witch looks like never at the rate 
I can save money. I will put it in front under the hood, I have plenty of 
room on my Dodge D150
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Moore" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:24 AM
Subject: [EVDL] air conditioning


I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air 
conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV. Why in 
the world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife 
happy with our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop 
laughing and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a 
3000 watt inverter and then to a small portable vent window air 
conditioner??? Stay warm while answering the question.
By the way, I have gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the 
winter, so I am easy to please, but my wife is another story.



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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I see your point...

Chuck
[email protected]
http://www.chuckles.net
http://www.gullwinglabradors.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:11 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Charles E Shultz Jr


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > When you think about it, don't the big car makers face the same
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I live in Chicago and to do the test I only need an inverter since I can ha=
ve a similar wattage heater(same as the portable air conditioner model I wo=
uld later buy) to test the output. =





________________________________
From: Charles E Shultz Jr <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:09:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning

This is completely understandable. I almost never use the AC in my ICE, but
I'm not the "averge driver", either.

When you think about it, don't the big car makers face the same problem?
They've got to market to "the average driver", who insists on these kinds of
features. Which makes an all-electric car just about infeasible.

Gotta ask Tim-what part of the country do you live in???? 


Chuck
[email protected]
http://www.chuckles.net
http://www.gullwinglabradors.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Tim Moore
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] air conditioning


I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air
conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV.=
Why in
the world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife
happy with our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop
laughing and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a
3000 watt inverter and then to a small portable vent window air
conditioner??? Stay warm while answering the question. By the way, I have
gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the winter, so I am easy to
please, but my wife is another story.


=

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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=

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Guys,
Where are you going to get the 3000 watts of energy at 12 volts to run this
inverter/air conditioner. 3000 watts at 12 volts is 250 amps.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Charles E Shultz Jr
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:29 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning

I see your point...

Chuck
[email protected]
http://www.chuckles.net
http://www.gullwinglabradors.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:11 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Charles E Shultz Jr


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > When you think about it, don't the big car makers face the same
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Currently no manufacturer of AC systems makes all electric AC even on prius 
if you are in hot climate the engine starts within 15 seconds of turning the 
AC on.

Fact is that AC on full power will consume from 3 to 7 HP the bigger the 
vehicle volume the more power you need and that does not include to power to 
drive the fans for condenser and evaporator.

By comparison small vehicle at 25 to 35 mph on level road only needs 2.5 to 
3.2 Hp once it is accelerated to steady speed to overcome wheel and tire 
friction.

But also any car standing still uses almost zero energy if it is EV, but the 
AC is on ALL THE TIME that you are in the vehicle, in city traffic moving 
along usually only constitutes 40% of the time you are in the car and as much as 
60% is standing still at traffic lights !!!

On modern cars with 100 HP + engines AC if on is hardly noticeable but try 
in on any 20 year old import and you think you left the parking brake on !

ON ICE cars AC makes as much as 25% difference in fuel economy on city cycle.

AC indeed is a luxury in EV that is if you use it !




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I was headscratching a few months ago about something like this and figured 
if I could find a DC gear motor strong enough I may be able to drive a 
normal car's AC compressor directly. I had just finished my RC lawnmower and 
have 2 24 volt DC wheelchair motors and gearboxes left over. I think the 
motor would work but the gearbox wouldn't. It has a small week wormgear 
reduction with nylon gear teeth.

Check out the Etec from Briggs and stratton That one would do it if a good 
gear box can be found. I'm quite sure a wheelchair motor would work if I 
could build or find the right gearbox.

Google found a comercial option useing the exact same idea:
http://www.ecycle.com/compdrives.html
I expect this thing ain't cheep though.

I also remember some marine and RV options for DC air conditioning 
compressors. Just do some google searching.

Stub





> Tim Moore wrote:
> > I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air
> > conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV.
> > Why in the world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 9:09, Charles E Shultz Jr wrote:
> 
> > They've got to market to "the average driver", who insists on these kinds of
> > features. Which makes an all-electric car just about infeasible.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 13:01, Mark Grasser wrote:
> 
> > 3000 watts at 12 volts is 250 amps.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I started searching again and found this:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid06.pdf

Lots of interesting info on the Prius AC system
Stub





> Chris Stephens wrote:
> > I was headscratching a few months ago about something like this and
> > figured if I could find a DC gear motor strong enough I may be able
> > to drive a normal car's AC compressor directly. I had just finished
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

This has been discussed before on the EVDL; you can check the archive for 
some very good ideas and thoughts. Someone mentioned inverter-powered split 
systems (some of which will work as heat pumps). 

As I recall, one other suggestion was that dismantling the unit and using 
the components separately might make it easier to fit it to your vehicle. 

Or you could do something like this : ;-)

http://evdl.org/images/aircon-daewoo.jpg

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 13:40, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Currently no manufacturer of AC systems makes all electric AC even on prius
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Prius HAS all-electric A/C.
Reason the engine comes on is because its battery pack is so small,
but this does not discount the electric A/C it has.

NOTE that in many ICE's the A/C needs to be very powerful because
the engine is generating so much heat right in front of the cabin,
so a lot of that heat is leaking into the cabin and the A/C has to
pump it out again.
In an EV you don't have that 100+kW heater sitting right in front
of you, so the A/C has much less work to do.
If you have ever payed close attention to how an A/C works, you
might have noticed that it cycles on/off. It is not working
permanently, it has a duty cycle. The duty cycle changes with the
amount of cold needed due to leak of heat into the car and the
temp difference.
You normally hear an ICE respond to the switching on/off of the A/C.

Even the Reva with its tiny 48V of golf cart batteries has an A/C
so it certainly is not impossible to run an A/C in an EV, otherwise
there would not be an A/C in many production EVs.

I read a post on the Prius_Technical_Stuff group that the electrical
A/C compressor motor actually has variable power demand, depending
on cooling required, it varies from 0 to 15A at the Prius 200V bus
so up to 3kW.
Since driving most EVs will cost 10 to 20 kW for constant speed, you
can see that switching on the A/C will cost at least 10% range and
possibly more if you need a lot of cold air and your are going from
traffic light to traffic light, but it does not make an EV
impossible, you simply lose range. Setting the A/C colder makes
you lose more range, in the same way that it will increase your
electricity bill at home.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning

Currently no manufacturer of AC systems makes all electric AC even on
prius if you are in hot climate the engine starts within 15 seconds of
turning the AC on.

Fact is that AC on full power will consume from 3 to 7 HP the bigger the
vehicle volume the more power you need and that does not include to
power to drive the fans for condenser and evaporator.

By comparison small vehicle at 25 to 35 mph on level road only needs 2.5
to
3.2 Hp once it is accelerated to steady speed to overcome wheel and tire
friction.

But also any car standing still uses almost zero energy if it is EV, but
the AC is on ALL THE TIME that you are in the vehicle, in city traffic
moving along usually only constitutes 40% of the time you are in the car
and as much as 60% is standing still at traffic lights !!!

On modern cars with 100 HP + engines AC if on is hardly noticeable but
try in on any 20 year old import and you think you left the parking
brake on !

ON ICE cars AC makes as much as 25% difference in fuel economy on city
cycle.

AC indeed is a luxury in EV that is if you use it !




**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom0
0000010)
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_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

While the Prius Airco control is tightly integrated into the
vehicle and the BLDC motor receives its power from the inverter
that also drives the 2 motors and has the DC/DC, it should be
fairly straightforward to use a separate BLDC controller and
a sensor for on/off control of the electric Prius Airco....

(If the BLDC controller is inside the motor then it would be
trivial to use it, I am not sure if it is fed DC, or AC with
the BLDC controller outside the motor in the inverter)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 13:40, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Currently no manufacturer of AC systems makes all electric AC even on
> > prius
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 12:40, Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > NOTE that in many ICE's the A/C needs to be very powerful because
> > the engine is generating so much heat right in front of the cabin,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Yet another reason for better insulation of an EV... 
I have read about the combination of rust prevention,
sound proofing and increased insulation all by adding
a spray-on foam style material.

Agreed, both heating and cooling require a lot of power
which cost some part of the range of an EV.
Either comfort or max range, that is the question and
the answer will be different for everyone.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 2:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning



> On 6 Dec 2008 at 12:40, Cor van de Water wrote:
> 
> > NOTE that in many ICE's the A/C needs to be very powerful because the
> > engine is generating so much heat right in front of the cabin, so a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

According to http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid06.pdf it is 201.6 volt 
AC from the inverter.

Stub




> Cor van de Water wrote:
> I am not sure if it is fed DC, or AC with
> > the BLDC controller outside the motor in the inverter)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

This is totally what you want...

http://redding.craigslist.org/pts/936146465.html

An automotive "Swamp Cooler"
cheap(ish), works (sort of), low power (that's true)

Good luck,
Frank




> Tim Moore wrote:
> 
> > I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air
> > conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

>
> Currently no manufacturer of AC systems makes all electric AC even on prius 
> if you are in hot climate the engine starts within 15 seconds of turning the 
> AC on.
> 
This is not accurate. The gen2 prius is a hermetically sealed all 
electric AC made by denso.
> 
> Fact is that AC on full power will consume from 3 to 7 HP the bigger the 
> vehicle volume the more power you need and that does not include to power to 
> drive the fans for condenser and evaporator.
> 
AC's are oversized for the initial cool down of all that metal and glass 
after sitting in a parking lot in the sun for 4 hours where the interior 
temp is easily 160 degrees F.
The newer scroll compressors and by upsizeing the evaporator, the power 
needed is about 1/4 what it was for a typical Chevy AC 10 years ago.
> 
> By comparison small vehicle at 25 to 35 mph on level road only needs 2.5 to 
> 3.2 Hp once it is accelerated to steady speed to overcome wheel and tire 
> friction.
> 
> But also any car standing still uses almost zero energy if it is EV, but the 
> AC is on ALL THE TIME that you are in the vehicle, in city traffic moving 
> along usually only constitutes 40% of the time you are in the car and as much as 
> 60% is standing still at traffic lights !!!
> 
> On modern cars with 100 HP + engines AC if on is hardly noticeable but try 
> in on any 20 year old import and you think you left the parking brake on !
> 
I was sold a mitsubishi truck with the small engine and AC(from the 
mitsu dealer, new).
(A combination the warrantee company tried to use as an excuse to repair 
my motor when it blew)
I labeled the AC button "turbo"

The other thing that has happened in recent years is the window glass 
now has coatings and insulation has gotten better. As a matter of fact, 
be carefull if you have a 2000 or newer car and get your windshield 
replaced, get the wrong one and in certain climates, the AC won't keep up.
> 
> ON ICE cars AC makes as much as 25% difference in fuel economy on city cycle.
> 
> AC indeed is a luxury in EV that is if you use it !
> 
> 
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Of course one more idea is to tie the AC clutch to the brake light and 
let some of the brakeing energy cool the car. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Chris wrote -

>
> I started searching again and found this:
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid06.pdf
>
> Lots of interesting info on the Prius AC system
> Stub

Check out the root of the link, http://www.autoshop101.com/ lots of GREAT 
information...


Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 62lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I wonder if those small window unit A/C's would run off a 120 vdc pack 
directly without converting to AC? I know an AC motor like an angle grinder 
will, is the compressor and fan much different?

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Does anyone know the pole and rpm or freq range of the inverter. It 
sounds like a great inverter project.

I was very surprised the difference not having a hot motor made. I 
can't drive my ICE in fresno in the summer without the AC, but the EV is ok.
A few times I would like AC, but it is not bad.

Here is a good thing idea you can do with electric AC. Pre-cool the car 
before you unplug it from the charger.  Then it won't take near as 
much during the trip.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Of course one more idea is to tie the AC clutch to the brake light and
> > let some of the brakeing energy cool the car.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Yes, I saw that document but 201.6V is the nominal DC
level of the Prius battery pack.
Maybe they mean that the pump motor is driven directly from
the battery pack voltage, not from the boosted voltage bus.

Any way, a generic BLDC controller that can generate up to
20A at 200V peak should certainly do the trick here, maybe
a simple 120V AC VFD or a modified inverter or a dedicated 
built AC controller? You could start with a Prius inverter
off Ebay, if you'd like and reverse engineer it...

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chris Stephens
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


According to http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid06.pdf it is 201.6
volt AC from the inverter.

Stub




> Cor van de Water wrote:
> I am not sure if it is fed DC, or AC with
> > the BLDC controller outside the motor in the inverter)
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I think most of the window units use an induction motor, so no. However, if
you have one of the superefficient window units using an electronically
commutated motor instead... it probably would. Alot of AC powertools (ones
with variable speed triggers at least) use universal motors, which are kind
of like series motors, but they run the same on DC or AC.

Z



> Josh Creel <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I wonder if those small window unit A/C's would run off a 120 vdc pack
> > directly without converting to AC? I know an AC motor like an angle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Seems to me that everyone in the AC industry and car industry seems to 
realize that cars are not thermally efficient, and that you need much more BTU to 
cool a car than a house !

People with EV seems to know how to defy the laws of Thermodynamics, simple 
physics and already figured out how to make thermally powered perpetum mobile 
!!!

I can tell you from experience that 9,000 BTU house unit run from 48 V thru 
converter to 120 V AC just barely kept interior of OKA at comfortable 92 to 95 
F in Las Vegas when the (in shade) temperature was just about 102 F without 
AC and with open windows it was actually more comfortable !

With closed windows the solar heat alone would rise the temperature to 115 
to 125 F in 15 minutes and keep it there.

SAE research shows both from HVAC panel and from SAE HVAC conventions in 
Phoenix that people are only comfortable if the air flow is significant - you 
can feel the air flow on your face - and the outlet temperature is in 50 to 60 F 
range, they start complaining when it gets to 68 and are outright 
uncomfortable when it is 80 F or more - no matter what the exterior temperature is, so 
AC to be considered AC has to satisfy the passenger which usually can not 
care less if you are in EV or ICE when it is 115 F on the outside - they just 
WANT to BE COOL !!!

SO Ac system that may be acceptable in May in MAINE is a bad Joke in Las 
Vegas or Phoenix !!!

California for one seems to realize how much energy is wasted running AC 
systems in cars so they came up with yet another set of unachievable rules for 
car industry. And EV's were not even on their mind ! The reasoning was the 
drastic MPG decline in EPA tests when AC is turned on typically 25% or even more 
on some models especially Hybrids !!!

here are some details !

*****


http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cool-paints/cool-paints.htm.

Paint and Coatings: The paint and coatings portion of the
original proposal included a requirement that 65 percent of the
infrared solar energy impinging on the painted or coated surface
be reflected, beginning with the 2012 model-year. Discussions
with manufacturers and others led ARB to the conclusions that
such a goal is not technically feasible in the near- to mid-term.
Further, the timeline for development and testing of new
pigments and paints is such that full compliance by 2012 would
not be feasible, regardless of the standard adopted. The revised
proposal seeks a target of 30 percent total solar reflectivity. 
One third of the color palette would be required to meet that
target by 2012. The balance (of medium and darker shades) would
have an additional 4 years to comply, with the entire color
palette required to meet the standard by 2016. There are
exemptions for various parts of the vehicle and custom colors. 
Application of higher reflectivity paint or coating on the roof
of the vehicle would obviate the need to utilize solar reflective
paint and coatings on the balance of the vehicle.

Glazing: The glazing portion of the original proposal included a
requirement for the all-around use of solar reflective glazing
that transmits no more than 40 percent of the total solar energy
inside the vehicle, beginning with the 2012 model-year. In
subsequent conversations, it was determined that this language
was confusing. In the revised draft, ARB is retaining the
reflective glazing component, but has added a phase-in schedule,
and changed the compliance metric to total direct solar
reflectance. The revised proposal requires that the vehicle
windshield reflect at least 45 percent of the impinging solar
energy, beginning with the 2012 model-year. Solar control for
the rooflite, if any, would also begin with the 2012 model-year. 
However, more compliance paths exist for the rooflite, since it
need not comply with any federal visible light requirements, so
reflective glass is not required. Requirements for the balance
of glazing would begin with the 2013 model-year. 

Alternate Options: Beginning with the 2016 model-year, the
proposed regulations allow a series of options that trade
improvements in reflectivity in glazing for reduced paint
requirements and vice versa. Under these options, it would be
possible for a manufacturer to avoid all paint and coating
requirements, or substantially reduce the glazing requirements,
for a specified model.

Please review these revisions and submit your comments by
December 31, 2008. Individual meetings to discuss aspects of the
proposal will be scheduled on request. Please address questions
by email to Dr. Marijke Bekken, Staff Air Pollution Specialist,
at [email protected] or to Ms. Sharon Lemieux, Manager, at (626)
575-7067 or by email at [email protected] 


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

You can not buy the "all electric" AC from DENSO we are asking them for it 
for over 4 years and they still seem to claim it is under development, they 
simply do NOT have anything you can buy from them as a system, so even Toyota 
has to engineer their own bits.

There are few AC units for HD Trucks but they assume that you have auxiliary 
power unit to generate the AC or you are plugged in at the truck stop that 
has AC to truck line.

The house AC just do not put out air that is cold enough for people comfort 
in a car and the ari flow is also very marginal.


**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place. Try it now. 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Here is a link to the other type compressor unit we discussed installed in 
an Ev conversion.

http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html

I thought the list may be interested in this......

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Wooooow - wait a minute!
If you click on the link of the unit in the overview
(they have DC AirCo compressors in many DC voltages)
http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
then you will see the decription saying they have *two*
high voltage models, one up to 300 and the other up to 420V DC!
The latter one is the solution for all the trucks and other EVs
that run a 312V or so nominal pack voltage!
http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=15

Spread the word!

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Josh Creel
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning

Here is a link to the other type compressor unit we discussed installed
in an Ev conversion.

http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html

I thought the list may be interested in this......

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

>ON ICE cars AC makes as much as 25% difference in fuel economy on city =

>cycle. =

>
>AC indeed is a luxury in EV that is if you use it ! =


Now you're sounding like an insurance salesman!

Where do people come up with these outragous figures?

My ICE car is an 87 Fiero that gets 29 Mpg in normal city commute driving
without the A/C on. In the summer time using the same routes, same time of
day, and the same passenger load I drive with the A/C on MAX at all times.
I easily get a little better than 27 Mpg. This equates to being 10% less.
But remember that I'm driving in Phoenix and the A/C does not cycle on and
off, it makes for comfortable driving but you certainly don't need, "to
turn it down". The average degree day here is almost the highest in the
nation with Death Valley maybe a degree or two higher.

My Solectria E-10 uses a 1.5 Hp, 144V DC motor to turn the compressor, not
even near to 10% as large as the two drive motors.

My TEVan has an integrated motor/compressor that according to the owners
manual and the service manual will cut your range from approximately 80
miles on a charge to 70 miles with the A/c on. With the heat on High,
(8.8KW ceramic), expect your range to be 60 miles.. and that's a 5
passenger minivan that has huge losses through the windows.

I've never calculated how much my range would suffer with the TEVan or the
E-10 but if it reduced my mileage on my ICE by anything near 25% I would be
sweating a lot and adapting a swamp cooler to my Fiero.

Jim - Glendale, AZ
www.evalbum.com/425
www.evalbum.com/804
www.evalbum.com/1703



--------------------------------------------------------------------
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft=AE Windows=AE and Linux web and applicati=
on
hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting



_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Spread the word... about What?

The guy I am doing a conversion for saw this a month ago, has tried to get 
ahold of them, no answer, don't return e-mails, etc.

Where can we BUY one???

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


> Wooooow - wait a minute!
> If you click on the link of the unit in the overview
> (they have DC AirCo compressors in many DC voltages)
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
> then you will see the decription saying they have *two*
> high voltage models, one up to 300 and the other up to 420V DC!
> The latter one is the solution for all the trucks and other EVs
> that run a 312V or so nominal pack voltage!
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=15
>
> Spread the word!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Josh Creel
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning
>
> Here is a link to the other type compressor unit we discussed installed
> in an Ev conversion.
>
> http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html
>
> I thought the list may be interested in this......
>
> Josh
>
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 
9:38 AM

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Tecumseh wants some help in selling Masterflux products,
could that be the issue?
http://careers.tecumseh.com/cr_search_detailed_view.php?sno=68 


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of joe
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:44 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning

Spread the word... about What?

The guy I am doing a conversion for saw this a month ago, has tried to
get ahold of them, no answer, don't return e-mails, etc.

Where can we BUY one???

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


> Wooooow - wait a minute!
> If you click on the link of the unit in the overview
> (they have DC AirCo compressors in many DC voltages)
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
> then you will see the decription saying they have *two*
> high voltage models, one up to 300 and the other up to 420V DC!
> The latter one is the solution for all the trucks and other EVs
> that run a 312V or so nominal pack voltage!
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=15
>
> Spread the word!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Josh Creel
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning
>
> Here is a link to the other type compressor unit we discussed
installed
> in an Ev conversion.
>
> http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html
>
> I thought the list may be interested in this......
>
> Josh
>
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date:
12/8/2008 
9:38 AM

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

The guys from austin EV are dealers

www dot revoltcustomelectric dot com

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "joe" <[email protected]>

Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:14:24 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


Spread the word... about What?

The guy I am doing a conversion for saw this a month ago, has tried to get
ahold of them, no answer, don't return e-mails, etc.

Where can we BUY one???

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


> Wooooow - wait a minute!
> If you click on the link of the unit in the overview
> (they have DC AirCo compressors in many DC voltages)
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/
> then you will see the decription saying they have *two*
> high voltage models, one up to 300 and the other up to 420V DC!
> The latter one is the solution for all the trucks and other EVs
> that run a 312V or so nominal pack voltage!
> http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=15
>
> Spread the word!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Josh Creel
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:35 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning
>
> Here is a link to the other type compressor unit we discussed installed
> in an Ev conversion.
>
> http://www.evdrive.com/BMW_project/AirConditioning.html
>
> I thought the list may be interested in this......
>
> Josh
>
> www.jcsevparts.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/ Usage guidelines:
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008
9:38 AM

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Masterflux does not have anything they hope that someone will buy a lot of 
them so they can make them, we have been waiting for 4 years to the a 
"prototype" that "actually works".....

SO keep on searching !!!
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
favorite sites in one place. Try it now. 
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I'm talking to their rep. now, I may have them shortly, how many do you 
want? 8>)

Josh

www.jcsevparts.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


> Spread the word... about What?
>
> The guy I am doing a conversion for saw this a month ago, has tried to get
> ahold of them, no answer, don't return e-mails, etc.
>
> Where can we BUY one???
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

http://www.metricmind.com/ac.htm which is currently off-line
and has been for a year now.

I started working with Masterflux on distributorship of these
in mid 2007. Couple of managers changed and now seems
it's moving right direction.

Tecumseh is actual manufacturer, and it is very hard to get hold
of anyone at either company, but if you manage, they may serve
you - it's up to a particular rep.

I can get you shown above A/C for <$1k now, but want to set up
a standard OEM discount with them as with other my suppliers
so it makes sense for any customer. My account with Masterflux
is set up but final negotiations will be after new year's meeting
with them.

The inverter they use is overkill and if someone is in the position
to develop or adapt simpler VFD type for this compressor, it will
be a winner - contact me off list if you want to try this.
But it apparently works as is - I have my own unit (though didn't
test it yet), as was mentioned here, Bob Simpson also has in his
BMW (evdrive.com). He got it from me at cost.

We will certainly come up with more sleek drive for it solution,
but nothing can be as convenient as a compressor with integrated AC 
motors as one self-contained unit. Several models of Sierra series
are well suitable.

A stock compressor driven off of a tail shaft via pulleys certainly
works, no doubt. But so are, say, CRT monitors, yet how many do you
see in use today?

Victor
MMC

--
'91 ACRX - something different
'01 in-AUDI-ble - handsome car with 0.4MW AC drive (work in progress)




> joe wrote:
> > Spread the word... about What?
> >
> > The guy I am doing a conversion for saw this a month ago, has tried to get
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

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b3B0aW9uczogaHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnNqc3UuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZXYKCg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > everyone in the AC industry and car industry seems to realize that cars are not thermally efficient, and that you need much more BTU to cool a car than a house!
> Correct; because cars have a negligible amount of insulation, and very
> high solar absorption. They also have a tremendous heat source (the ICE)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> > Where do people come up with these outragous figures?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Hi,

I'm curious. What have been the difficulties in getting the Masterflux
compressors? I would be interested in hearing about any issues people have
had working with Masterflux or Tecumseh. If you prefer to send privately,
that would be fine.

We have purchased and installed the Sierra compressor (the
SIERRA06-0982Y3<http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=51>)
in our Saturn conversion and we will be installing one in our next Mazda 3.
We have also successfully quoted and sold units to our EV cohorts. If you
are interested in a quote, please feel free to contact me at
http://www.revoltcustomelectric.com/contact-queue.html .

Cheers,

Aaron Choate
REVOLT Custom Electric



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Masterflux does not have anything they hope that someone will buy a lot of
> > them so they can make them, we have been waiting for 4 years to the a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Lot of phone calls, the two guys that supposedly run the company even came to Las Vegas to "see" OKA, but instead ended up visiting a "gentleman's club", etc.

We have simply never got any unit we could test as basically they admitted they do not have any untill someone orders "lot of them" so they can tool up to produce them.? That was 4 years ago, and since then we basically gave up on them.

But if they ever get their act together and have someting to demonstrate, I would still be interested, but we would never ever dare to sell anything to our customers unless it has at least 2 hot seasons of real life testing in OUR vehicle FIRST !!!

Miro Kefurt
OKA AUTO USA
www.okaauto.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Choate <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:27 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning



Hi,

I'm curious. What have been the difficulties in getting the Masterflux
compressors? I would be interested in hearing about any issues people have
had working with Masterflux or Tecumseh. If you prefer to send privately,
that would be fine.

We have purchased and installed the Sierra compressor (the
SIERRA06-0982Y3<http://www.masterflux.com/products/sierra/?pid=51>)
in our Saturn conversion and we will be installing one in our next Mazda 3.
We have also successfully quoted and sold units to our EV cohorts. If you
are interested in a quote, please feel free to contact me at
http://www.revoltcustomelectric.com/contact-queue.html .

Cheers,

Aaron Choate
REVOLT Custom Electric



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Masterflux does not have anything they hope that someone will buy a lot of
> > them so they can make them, we have been waiting for 4 years to the a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I was at Oshkosh this year and a company was selling A/C for aircraft 
for $12-15K. I asked and they are using Masterflux. I think they have 
moved quite a few units in high-end aircraft so my impression was that 
they are available and reliable. No first hand experience myself but I 
can find the name of the company if anyone wanted to talk to them

gary.



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Lot of phone calls, the two guys that supposedly run the company even came to Las Vegas to "see" OKA, but instead ended up visiting a "gentleman's club", etc.
> >
> > We have simply never got any unit we could test as basically they admitted they do not have any untill someone orders "lot of them" so they can tool up to produce them.? That was 4 years ago, and since then we basically gave up on them.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I emailed MasterFlux the other day from their contact link, and the next 
day one of their reps. called me and told me to talk to: Aaron Choate 
[email protected]

I would reccomend talking to him if you are interested in these systems.

Josh and Jen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gary" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning


>I was at Oshkosh this year and a company was selling A/C for aircraft
> for $12-15K. I asked and they are using Masterflux. I think they have
> moved quite a few units in high-end aircraft so my impression was that
> they are available and reliable. No first hand experience myself but I
> can find the name of the company if anyone wanted to talk to them
>
> gary.
>


> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> Lot of phone calls, the two guys that supposedly run the company even
> >> came to Las Vegas to "see" OKA, but instead ended up visiting a
> >> "gentleman's club", etc.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I have the same requirment. Wife wants AC. It's fine if it's a 15% hit on the range. Retrofitting ICE units into an EV seems difficult, clearance, integration, and everytime my ICE AC compressor goes out its a $1500 repair job somehow. So, keeping with Tim's idea:

Has anyone looked into whether the inrush from a cheap (or cheaper) window AC unit like this:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=89279-70213-FAA062P7A&lpage=none

kicking on would be too much for this inverter:
http://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RM2000-12
(or yet bigger: http://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=PW6000-12)

powered by this charger (along with the 12V accessory battery):
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls90.htm
(I've been told these chargers rectify their input and as such can run off DC, this would be verified - let's assume it's true for now. They can also work in parrellel in case we figure we'd need more from the 12V power)

to handle?

The idea is you have the 90A 12V battery charger running off your traction pack (120VDC, etc) and the 12VDC/120VAC inverter running off it and plug the window unit into the inverter. The window unit would probably be stuck in the truck, with air flow, and inlet/outlets piped into the cabin.

Or else does anyone know of a window AC unit that runs off a universal motor?

Thanks,
Chris


air conditioning 
by Tim Moore-6 Dec 05, 2008; 11:24pm :: Rate this Message: (use ratings to moderate[?])
Reply | Reply to Author | Show Only this Message
I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air conditioning with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV. Why in the world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife happy with our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop laughing and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a 3000 watt inverter and then to a small portable vent window air conditioner??? Stay warm while answering the question. 
By the way, I have gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the winter, so I am easy to please, but my wife is another story. 




_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 2 Jan 2009 at 9:26, Christopher Darilek wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone looked into whether the inrush from a cheap (or cheaper) window AC
> > unit ... kicking on would be too much for this inverter ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

I read the discussion from a few weeks ago. I thought I was furthering it. 
Thanks,
Chris




________________________________
From: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 2, 2009 11:42:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning



> On 2 Jan 2009 at 9:26, Christopher Darilek wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone looked into whether the inrush from a cheap (or cheaper) window AC
> > unit ... kicking on would be too much for this inverter ...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> On 2 Jan 2009 at 9:55, Christopher Darilek wrote:
> 
> > I read the discussion from a few weeks ago. I thought I was furthering it.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

Portable with the manufacturers hose venting out the window. Like the=
link below.
http://www.coolairstore.com/products/product.php?id=3D48




________________________________
From: Christopher Darilek <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 2, 2009 11:26:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] air conditioning



I have the same requirment. Wife wants AC. It's fine if it's a 15% hi=
t on the range. Retrofitting ICE units into an EV seems difficult, clear=
ance, integration, and everytime my ICE AC compressor goes out its a $1500 =
repair job somehow. So, keeping with Tim's idea:

Has anyone looked into whether the inrush from a cheap (or cheaper) window =
AC unit like this:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=3DproductDetail&productId=3D89279-702=
13-FAA062P7A&lpage=3Dnone

kicking on would be too much for this inverter:
http://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=3DRM2000-12
(or yet bigger: http://www.dcacpowerinverters.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=3DPW60=
00-12)

powered by this charger (along with the 12V accessory battery):
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls90.htm
(I've been told these chargers rectify their input and as such can run off =
DC, this would be verified - let's assume it's true for now. They can al=
so work in parrellel in case we figure we'd need more from the 12V power)

to handle?

The idea is you have the 90A 12V battery charger running off your traction =
pack (120VDC, etc) and the 12VDC/120VAC inverter running off it and plug th=
e window unit into the inverter. The window unit would probably be stuck in=
the truck, with air flow, and inlet/outlets piped into the cabin.

Or else does anyone know of a window AC unit that runs off a universal moto=
r?

Thanks,
Chris


air conditioning =

by Tim Moore-6 Dec 05, 2008; 11:24pm :: Rate this Message: (use rati=
ngs to moderate[?])
Reply | Reply to Author | Show Only this Message
I realize this is the frigid winter, but I want to ask about air conditioni=
ng with a portable window vent air conditioner in an EV. Why in the =
world am I thinking of this, well I want to be able to make my wife happy w=
ith our future EV truck and she says it has to have air. So stop laughin=
g and answer me this question. Can I go 12 or 24v deep cycle to a 3000 w=
att inverter and then to a small portable vent window air conditioner???=
Stay warm while answering the question. =

By the way, I have gone 7yrs in my EV Ford Escort without heat in the winte=
r, so I am easy to please, but my wife is another story. =




=

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


=

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*



> Tim Moore wrote:
> > Portable with the manufacturers hose venting out the window. Like the link below.
> > http://www.coolairstore.com/products/product.php?id=48
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] air conditioning*

What about these things?

http://www.swampy.net/auto.html

- Peter





> Jim Walls <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Tim Moore wrote:
> > > Portable with the manufacturers hose venting out the window. Like the
> ...


----------

