# Power generator instead of accu's



## HaerdenC (Oct 9, 2012)

Dear all,

this is a serious question ... I searched all over the web and can't find info on this however I supose someone must have thought about this ... 

Most electric convertions are pretty expansive ... So me as a total idiot and noob was thinking ... why not keeping it extremely simpel and basic. 

I have a Toyota 1000 form 1971 ... 
- without engine it weights less then 600 kg. 
- I don't expect high topspeed (75 km/h is perfect anything higher is cool more then 90 km/h not needed)
- I don't need fast acceleration ... It's an oldtimer
- currently it has a 1000 CC 4 stroke engine with 49 bhp (when it was brand new)
- it has a manual 4 gear geabox
- Front engine RWD
- I don't need heating
- no power stearing, servo, abs etc ... 
- I don't need regeneration etc 

so ... I was thinking in order to keep it simpel ... 
- Buying a powergenerator delivering somewhere between 5000 and 10000 Kw ... you can by them in a local DIY store ... 
- remove the petrol engine
- make a plate/frame in order to fit the generator in the engine compartiment
- turning the rear diff around in order to be able to fit an electro engine in the trunk ... directly bolted to the diff
- a controller
- electric gas pedal
- most of the generators also have a 12 volt output ... that can be usefull for horn, headlights etc 
- 220 Volt 2 phase Assync AC engine with correct RPM 

All of this together costs as far as I can see around 3000 euro (3500 dollar MAX) 

ok it is not a real electric car however ... 
- full economy should be a lot better
- less weight (no gearbox, no accu's)
- pretty strait forward
- no extreme mods 

Am I completelly wrong? how much watt would I need? Why isn't it done more like this ?

BTW this is my car + son


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

I have wondered about this before. The stand-by generators I am familiar with are under 10 HP and might by too small for your application.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

HaerdenC said:


> Dear all,
> 
> this is a serious question ... I searched all over the web and can't find info on this however I supose someone must have thought about this ...
> 
> ...


Hi Haer,



> Am I completelly wrong?


Yep, I'd say so.



> how much watt would I need?


More than the original engine. You will introduce additional energy conversion (mechanical to electrical and then back to mechanical). Each energy conversion is less than perfect defined by efficiency. The typical efficiency for motors and generators is in the range of 80%, so you lose 36% of your engine output right there.



> Why isn't it done more like this ?


It is a losing proposition.



> - electric gas pedal


 What is this?



> - 220 Volt 2 phase Assync AC engine with correct RPM


 You'll have trouble finding this if such a thing exist.



> - full economy should be a lot better


 It will be worse.



> - less weight (no gearbox, no accu's)


 I don't think so.



> - pretty strait forward


 Lots of things appear that way, but turn out to be complex. This will fall into that category.



> - no extreme mods


 Don't bet on it.

And after all that, from what I hear, in Europe, the government would never allow such a modified car on the public streets. 

All in all, you have a very bad idea. But welcome to the forum.

major


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

What you are describing is a "series hybrid" but without the battery.

However, the battery is a crucial component. It works as an energy buffer for two important tasks:
1) Regenerative braking
2) Allowing the gas engine to run at optimum RPM (optimum efficiency point).

Without these functions, there are only extra losses. When properly done, these two points (using a battery) can give savings that overcome the extra losses and more.

Furthermore, a cheap generator has a low-quality gas engine not designed for fuel economy or low emissions, like today's car gas engines are.

Please do a little bit of homework first. Start by reading how electric cars and then hybrids work.


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## HaerdenC (Oct 9, 2012)

hmzzz ... some points in there ... 

- registration is no problem ... it is registered as oldtimer and oldtimers don't have technical checkups every year. I'm not planning to drive it as a dailly car only meetings
- problems with RPM on the generator ... euhm ... if you buy a stock generator I don't see that causing any troubles at all
- Example of a generator generating 10 KW
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10000watt-1...97324630?pt=BI_Generators&hash=item4160d32556
this one would fit (size wise)
- 2 phase ac engine ... easy to find also with for example 7500 or 9000 watts
example: 
http://www.kramp.com/shop/action/SimpleSearch?storeId=30&langId=-17&level=0&searchType=STARTSWITH&errorStatus=410&query=EM132M2B3500KRIE2A
-I don't want regeneration ... so storing that energy is not an issue ... 
-current engine weights about 100 kg ... only the 1000 cc engine without gearbox etc

however ... If I understand well in order to get about about 32 KW (the current 1000cc fuel engine) I need more in electric power.

The conversion is indeed true of course however ... you also simplify lot's of things (no gearbox, waterpump, etc)

I'm really not trying to be rude or something was just wondering  (I also looked at changing the engine to a more recent 1000 CC toyota engine from a crashed vitz/yaris/aygo however with 2 or 3 beers we where like thinking about this)

We hate batteries and don't believe that is the future.

from the specs of the generator -> 50% load (you don't accelerate all the time so ... I think that might be ok as reference in my case as oldtimer user) 8.3 gallons 10 hours ... -> that is 31 liters ... so 3.1 liters/hour even if it is double it still is more economic then the current engine.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

HaerdenC said:


> hmzzz ... some points in there ...
> 
> - 2 phase ac engine ... easy to find also with for example 7500 or 9000 watts
> example:
> http://www.kramp.com/shop/action/Si...WITH&errorStatus=410&query=EM132M2B3500KRIE2A


You are wrong on many points. For example, that is a 3 phase motor. But go ahead and give it a try. Then you'll know


> Why isn't it done more like this ?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

HaerdenC said:


> We hate batteries and don't believe that is the future.


If your goal in life is to drive an oil-powered car, there are much easier ways to do so. We really can't help you with that.

We do like batteries, and not only are they the future, they are our present.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

HaerdenC said:


> from the specs of the generator -> 50% load (you don't accelerate all the time so ... I think that might be ok as reference in my case as oldtimer user) 8.3 gallons 10 hours ... -> that is 31 liters ... so 3.1 liters/hour even if it is double it still is more economic then the current engine.


50% load is 4000 Watts or 4 kW. For 10 hours that gives you 40 kWh of energy. A typical well built EV might use 250 Wh/mile. So that energy would get you 160 miles in range. Using 8.3 gal of petro equates to 19.3 miles per gallon. 

Now step into the real world.* The above calculation includes no loss for electric to mechanical power to actually propel the car. This will subtract 20 to 40% in the economy. Also there was no energy allowance to power accessories. Cut another 10 to 30% off the economy. Then there are the accelerations. Depending on the drive cycle and traffic, this could rob up to another 50%.

*edit: Most of these real world losses are included in the 250 Wh/mi, so all are not subtracted out


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

Don't you see that you are proposing a 100% gasoline car here? 

Your mystical "power generator" makes electric power from the gasoline. It doesn't come from nowhere. It has very similar internal combustion engine than in your car.

In addition, those you propose are sometimes very low-quality, low-efficiency units meant for hobby uses.

Also, 10 kW is not enough power for normal driving. Maybe low-speed, low-acceleration city driving. In a HYBRID using batteries it WOULD BE enough, but you need the batteries then.

So what you propose is replacing a high-quality, automotive internal combustion engine with a low-quality, low-efficiency, non-automotive internal combustion engine, and then add even more losses to it.

Those cheap generators, however, have some idea when used as a "emergency" range extender when you run out of batteries in rare cases, not in daily use. Then you use more gasoline than you would in a normal car, but it doesn't matter as you _mostly_ use _electricity_ to charge the _batteries_.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I think you'd be much better off dropping in a late model fuel injected 4cyl engine in place of the original. Maybe a little diesel engine?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

This is part of the reason why the Volt has mediocre mileage compared to the Cruze when it's in charge sustaining mode. All the losses going from mechanical power to electrical power then back to mechanical power. Running an electric car off of a gas motor/generator is a loss on all fronts. You get both greater complexity and less efficiency than just using one or the other. At least the Volt only does it part time when your batteries are empty.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

If you have a KE10 Corolla then you have a couple of choices... first, a good rebuild and some carefully considered modifications (higher compression and some head porting) will get you mileage in the high 30's (more than 13 km per liter, I think). This is the least work by far.
My Echo with the 1.5L 1NZ-FE can get 18 km/liter with skinny tires and it's heavier than your car, but has far better aerodynamics. Swapping one of those in would be an interesting exercise. You'd more than double the power output so it would definitely be more fun to drive.
If you're going to go electric then don't even consider tying the motor direct to the rear axle. That will wreck the handling (already not really a strong suit of that car).

In a KE10 you could very effectively use an 8 inch motor, and with a 9 inch and the appropriate battery and controller you'd have a fun, fast car. Range would be limited by your budget. 

The main attraction of electric power is that you can have a bunch of torque at near-zero RPM, because of the controller's function as a nearly infinitely variable transmission between the battery and the motor. By trying to build a generator-powered electric car, you get none of that advantage.


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## HaerdenC (Oct 9, 2012)

The most easy swap is a 1.5 K5 engine with electronic injection build on to it ... it will give me 30 percent more power, can be done in 3 hours and a lot better on fuel consumption. 

However that was not the idea ... the idea was driving on electricity ... so maybe you guys are right and I will get back on thinking what I will do with the car


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