# Alternative to a Zilla 1000



## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm a EV-Wannabe... So, I know nothing... But I have read good things about the Soliton on here... You might want to look into it...


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

You may want to try Manzanita Micro

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=33

They are supposed to be gearing up to produce Zilla's. Their site lets me put one in the cart?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

the Soliton1 seems to be emerging as the new 'modern' 1000 amp favorite with good reputation and availability.


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## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Or you could buy a used one. I know where there is a Z1K HV -AP available. Especially since it looks like it will be a while before I can get started on a conversion.


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## ddmcse (Oct 9, 2008)

I would choose the Soliton 1. But you need to consider the installation area. The Soliton 1 is not small . If you are into computers and tech stuff the Soltion 1 might be more interesting too. I have been faced with this choice twice and both times the zilla was not quite available, it was, it wasn't . Maybe that will change but thats how its been for more than 4 years. the Soliton 1 has a boat load of features and it's 2 wire in 2 wire out connection seems logical.


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## Carbonfree (May 25, 2011)

You should consider the Warp controllers. Those seems to be modular and upgradable to 1,200 or 1,400 amps. Soliton is also worth considering and they seem to actively support it. The Zilla is actually obsolete technology.

http://www.evsource.com/tls_WarP-Drive.php


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

If you want a full 1000-amp, economy controller, I would go with an EP-1000. EV Parts Depot (1-888-915-9965) has them for $1899 and they come with a one year, no-fault warranty.

I've had mine in my car with no current limiter for almost a year now, and I've never been able to overheat it...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> If you want a full 1000-amp, economy controller, I would go with an EP-1000. EV Parts Depot (1-888-915-9965) has them for $1899 and they come with a one year, no-fault warranty.
> 
> I've had mine in my car with no current limiter for almost a year now, and I've never been able to overheat it...


Below is a post recently found on the EVDL.



> Hi All,
> 
> Over a year ago, when there was a controller shortage, we ordered 2
> controllers from this company. We were desperate and it sounded so
> ...


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Major, I wouldn't pay much attention to Steve... he thinks that all DC motor controllers require 3-terminal IGBT modules instead of 2. He is not aware that those are primarily for three-phase AC inverters, which require a negative swing.

We use a seperate freewheel diode, because the built-in diodes on the 3-terminal IGBTs are usually not big enough to handle the kind of current DC motors push back.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Major, I wouldn't pay much attention to Steve... he thinks that all DC motor controllers require 3-terminal IGBT modules instead of 2. He is not aware that those are primarily for three-phase AC inverters, which require a negative swing.
> 
> We use a seperate freewheel diode, because the built-in diodes on the 3-terminal IGBTs are usually not big enough to handle the kind of current DC motors push back.


I think this is like the 3-terminal device Steve was thinking about. 

http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/cm300e3u12h.pdf 

From that data sheet:



> Powerex Chopper IGBTMOD™
> Modules are designed for use in
> switching applications. Each module
> consists of one IGBT Transistor
> ...


As you can see IGBT modules are offered in a package which includes the Free Wheeling Diode specifically designed for choppers like DC motor controllers.​


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## EscapeVelocity (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm not sure how long of a backlog they have, but the Zilla is now in production at Manzanita.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

EscapeVelocity said:


> I'm not sure how long of a backlog they have, but the Zilla is now in production at Manzanita.


I was quoted 2-3 weeks for Z2k-EHV. 0.64 MEGAWATT, damn it! 

could you pls elaborate on the 'old technology' (someone mentioned that Zillas are obsolete tech)??? I thought it's all far from rocket science - IGBTs controlled via PWM. Hell, our house-made controller runs at 1200A 300V without any advanced engineering...


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

valerun said:


> I was quoted 2-3 weeks for Z2k-EHV. 0.64 MEGAWATT, damn it!
> 
> could you pls elaborate on the 'old technology' (someone mentioned that Zillas are obsolete tech)??? I thought it's all far from rocket science - IGBTs controlled via PWM. Hell, our house-made controller runs at 1200A 300V without any advanced engineering...


This thread is very interesting to me. Is it possible to build a "racing" controller and have it built "cheaper" if some of the extra functions are left out of the design? Another words, a high amperage 2000 or more, high voltage 340 or more, just built for quick throttle "punch and go design"?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> This thread is very interesting to me. Is it possible to build a "racing" controller and have it built "cheaper" if some of the extra functions are left out of the design? Another words, a high amperage 2000 or more, high voltage 340 or more, just built for quick throttle "punch and go design"?



EPC controllers are built with this idea in mind. Although not made specifically for racing, they are built for extremely heavy loads, high amps, and high voltage, without any standard features, other than what is required to keep the controller running and cool. The cost has been lowered by leaving out a lot of the features that are not necessary to get the job done. They are especially ideal for OEM applications, where you know what features will and won't be needed.


For example, the EP-1000 is not programmable, has no CAN bus, and does not have a fancy-looking heat sink or enclosure. With a voltage rating of 350V and surge rating of well over 2000 amps, it does the job well for it's $1899 price tag. The EPjr is the same way, with two 600-amp IGBT modules powering it. A lot of people find it hard to believe that the EPjr retails for $899.00 -- but when you add up all the things that have been removed, the price range makes sense.

There are also a lot of other controllers available from other companies that are of this "application-specific" design. The only problem with these controllers is that they are not as "universal" or flexible, so you have to make sure you pick the right one.... there usually is no "one size fits all". On the other hand, the WarpDrive or Soliton 1 are universal, and will fit almost anything... CAN bus and all.

The important thing is to make sure you do your homework before buying a controller, because most manufacturers will not take them back if it's not ideal for your application. If you buy a controller that can't hold 1500 amps for 19 seconds without shutting down, then you won't win the race....


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> EPC controllers are built with this idea in mind. Although not made specifically for racing, they are built for extremely heavy loads, high amps, and high voltage, without any standard features, other than what is required to keep the controller running and cool. The cost has been lowered by leaving out a lot of the features that are not necessary to get the job done. They are especially ideal for OEM applications, where you know what features will and won't be needed.
> 
> 
> For example, the EP-1000 is not programmable, has no CAN bus, and does not have a fancy-looking heat sink or enclosure. With a voltage rating of 350V and surge rating of well over 2000 amps, it does the job well for it's $1899 price tag. The EPjr is the same way, with two 600-amp IGBT modules powering it. A lot of people find it hard to believe that the EPjr retails for $899.00 -- but when you add up all the things that have been removed, the price range makes sense.
> ...


Very interesting, thank you!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Big K said:


> Hi
> 
> I am looking to upgrade my curtis 1231c to a 1000A controller and ideally I would like to get my hands on a zilla but it looks to me like it would take way to long to get one because of the huge waiting list.
> 
> ...


Since you already have a Curtis, you can send it off and have it done by Dave Mosher, a Curtis authorized tech. He did mine and replaced the diodes with ones that have only 1/3 the resistance of the factory diodes and are rated for higher amps I think. 

Since the upgrade mine runs cooler. With the heat sink I added, its' actually running without a fan and hasn't ran hot yet. His upgrade btw actually has 1300A capacity though he states it's 1000A and it's a $650 expense. 

When you install it and hit the throttle a bit, you'll be all smiles. This upgrade will smoke the tires on my S10 without dumping the clutch, which I don't have anyway.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Forgot to mention this, with the upgrade it's rated at 400A continuous, 1000A for two minutes. Dave's on the forum here, username is domosher, do a search and you can pm him.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Tell Dave to start doing research on the Curtis AC controllers


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ElectriCar said:


> Since you already have a Curtis, you can send it off and have it done by Dave Mosher, a Curtis authorized tech. He did mine and replaced the diodes with ones that have only 1/3 the resistance of the factory diodes and are rated for higher amps I think.
> 
> Since the upgrade mine runs cooler. With the heat sink I added, its' actually running without a fan and hasn't ran hot yet. His upgrade btw actually has 1300A capacity though he states it's 1000A and it's a $650 expense.
> 
> When you install it and hit the throttle a bit, you'll be all smiles. This upgrade will smoke the tires on my S10 without dumping the clutch, which I don't have anyway.


thanks for the info, that is good stuff to know.


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

I can see the advantage of using a 3 terminal module as a single transistor and a seperate diode. What I don't know is whether the current rating is a total of both transistors or is each transistor capable of carrying the published amperage.

This information may be included in the datasheets, but I haven't found it.

Thanks:
John


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

rumleyfips said:


> I can see the advantage of using a 3 terminal module as a single transistor and a seperate diode.


?? 

see http://www.infineon.com/dgdl?folder...601e3&fileId=db3a30431ddc9372011e398afc1a5e4a
(part number DF1400R12IP4D) and let us know if you still feel this way....



rumleyfips said:


> What I don't know is whether the current rating is a total of both transistors or is each transistor capable of carrying the published amperage.


again, see above link. as major said, the chopper modules are SPECIFICALLY designed for this purpose!


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Valerun:
Thanks. I was thinking more of modules like the Fuji 2MBI 300L-060. I read the "re: Can these be used for flyback: thread and it led to my question.

Rumleyfips


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

rumleyfips said:


> Valerun:
> Thanks. I was thinking more of modules like the Fuji 2MBI 300L-060. I read the "re: Can these be used for flyback: thread and it led to my question.
> 
> Rumleyfips


The diodes are matched in all these modules. These modules are designed to run one phase of an inverter. In that config, the diode on one transistor is a freewheeling diode for the second transistor. In the case of low duty cycle, it's the diodes that carry most of the current to the load. So yes, they have to be rated accordingly. 

300A module is a bit small to be used in a full-size EV controller, though (IMO, of course). To get to 1000A output, you'd have to parallel at least 5 of them, with all the associated trickery around driver boards, layout symmetry, etc. Probably not worth the trouble in the end. After experimenting with this stuff for a while, I wouldn't do anything with more than 2 devices unless I have to. Of course, we just happen to have 13 600V 600A modules sitting around my lab here so we'll put them to good use for our eBMW (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/starting-new-build-bmw-3-series-59664.html) but we are also sourcing the abovementioned part for future experiments. 

V


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

I had Mitsubishi PM600DSA060 modules in min. 600A, 600V, ideal driver, lots of built in protection, little physical separation between switch and diode. Unfortunately the good price I thought I had was too good to be true. I'll keep shopping.

If each switch and each diode handles 600A(nominal) 2 modules should be fine for 450A, 72V.

I thought of parallelling 2 modules; using one side as 2 600 amp switches with a PWM control . The other side would be 2 600 amp diodes with the G_E shorted to prevent turn on. A good physical and mechanical layout should result from just 2 modules side by side on a common heat sink.

Rumleyfips


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

rumleyfips said:


> I had Mitsubishi PM600DSA060 modules in min. 600A, 600V, ideal driver, lots of built in protection, little physical separation between switch and diode. Unfortunately the good price I thought I had was too good to be true. I'll keep shopping.
> 
> If each switch and each diode handles 600A(nominal) 2 modules should be fine for 450A, 72V.
> 
> ...


good. that's exactly the modules we have lying around ;-)

We plan to use 4 of them.

PM me if you're interested in these modules - I can probably sell a few of those - doesn't look like we will be using all 13 anyway.

V


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

valerun said:


> We plan to use 4 of them.


You might want to keep a few spares, just in case...


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

Qer said:


> You might want to keep a few spares, just in case...


But of course, Qer. ;-) Considering it's just a hobby project, we'll try to go through them slowly.


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## rumleyfips (Oct 15, 2008)

Valerun:

PM sent.

Thanks:
John


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