# [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

if you have a gasoline car that drives 1,000 miles 
and have an electric car that drives 1,000 miles

the gasoline car uses gasoline
the electric car uses electricity

is there a conversion method for distance traveled per energy units that can be used to compare the 2?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> robert winfield<[email protected]> wrote:
> > if you have a gasoline car that drives 1,000 miles
> > and have an electric car that drives 1,000 miles
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Johnston"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 11:56:56 -0600




> robert winfield wrote:
> > if you have a gasoline car that drives 1,000 miles
> > and have an electric car that drives 1,000 miles
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From
http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html

1 kwh = 3.611e6 joules
1 gallon gasoline = 1.3e8 joules

--Steve



> robert winfield wrote:
> > I am more interested in distance traveled
> >
> > If they both go 1,000 miles and 1 uses X amount of gasoline and 1 uses Y amount of Kilowatt hours
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 14:13, Steve


> Peterson<[email protected]> wrote:
> > From
> > http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 13:13:55 -0700


From
http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html

1 kwh =3D 3.611e6 joules
1 gallon gasoline =3D 1.3e8 joules
--Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------

THANK-YOU Steve,
My calculator says a Gallon of Gasoline is equivalent to 36 Kilowatt
Hours of electricity.
So above is a simplified way to view the Energy consumption converted
from gas to electric or back.
Next the accountants will say it is more valid to convert numbers of
gallons of gas and kwh of electricity
to the current price and compare the dollars! (Now id someone would
write a little conversion program in "C+++"and put ir on their
webpage for us all to use or download, I would feel fulfilled...
Thanks to all, Dennis Miles

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> robert winfield wrote:
> > I am more interested in distance traveled
> >
> > If they both go 1,000 miles and 1 uses X amount of gasoline and 1
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Then using these numbers for my Datsun pickup (at roughly .02 per mile 
cost), I use about $20.00 for that 1,000 miles. Gasoline I would have used 
33 gallons of gas @ (currently $2.70 pr gallon), is $89.10. Even if you 
factor in the cost of the batteries at approximately $33 for that 1000 
miles, still electric is much cheaper. And that doesn't account for less 
maintenance on the electric vehicle.

So why do some people keep saying that the electrics aren't financially 
better???

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Johnston" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers


> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 14:13, Steve


> > Peterson<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> From
> >> http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html
> >>
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Then using these numbers for my Datsun pickup (at roughly .02 per mile
> > cost), I use about $20.00 for that 1,000 miles. Gasoline I would have used
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert Johnston <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------
From: "robert winfield" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers

> if you have a gasoline car that drives 1,000 miles
> and have an electric car that drives 1,000 miles
>
> the gasoline car uses gasoline
> the electric car uses electricity
>
> is there a conversion method for distance traveled per energy units that 
> can be used to compare the 2?

It is actually open to debate. The EV community favors the gallon to kWh 
conversion listed (1 gallon = 36 kWh), there is also the cost conversion, 
and various biasing methods that can be used to give a wide range of 
answers. This is the same reason why there was so much debate over the 230 
mpg of the Chevy Volt, the biasing methods allowed that as an answer but it 
is certainly not true.

Basically the two most useful:

Energy conversion
Take the Miles per kWh
Divide by kWh per gallon (~36 for gasoline)

Cost conversion
Take Miles per kWh
divide by cost per kWh
multiply by cost for a gallon of gasoline

Very often the two numbers will be quite different. The EPA estimate is 
looking like it will take a far more complex approach, basing the number on 
a standard driving loop, and an attempt to balance between energy and cost.

So to run the two numbers. Based on the Tesla Roadster:

Range: 244 miles
Energy Capacity: 53 kWh
Miles/kWh: 4.6

Energy conversion
4.6*36 = 165 MPG

Cost conversion
Assuming $3/gallon gasoline
Assuming $0.1154/kWh (Current California residential average by 
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html)

4.6/0.1154*3 = 119 MPG

Your numbers will obviously vary.
Joe 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We pay in the PNW about 6-8 cents per kilowatt/hr - so we are substatially 
below your figure of 12 cents. Most people that use T-105's are gettting 
20,000 miles or better with the pack - 5% of $1200 (what I paid for them a 
year ago, 20 batteries) is $60. So my calculation was off a little on that. 
And they probably cost more now, so let's say $1800 for the pack of 20. 
That's $90 per 1000 miles. That is about 9 cents per mile, plus the 
electricity; which I had calculated before to be about 2 cents per mile. 
That makes the calculation look a little different, doesn't it? However, it 
still does not take into account the *much* lower maint. costs on the EV, so 
I think I'm still ahead economically.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Marino" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers


>


> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Then using these numbers for my Datsun pickup (at roughly .02 per mile
> >> cost), I use about $20.00 for that 1,000 miles. Gasoline I would have
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As long as we are comparing gas to electricity directly,
does anyone know how much energy goes into refining gas
(per gallon of gas)?

For some reason I have the impression that
refining oil to get a gallon of gas uses more
electricity than it would take to go the 20 miles,
disregarding the oil.

I have no idea where I got this idea

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Seth,

Here you go....

To extract one gallon of gasoline (or equivalent distillate): 9.66 kWh
To refine that gallon: 2.73 kWh additional energy.
Total: 12.39 kWh per gallon.

The source for this is below so I can't vouch for its validity.


http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm

Hope that helps.


Sincerely;

Douglas A. Stansfield
President
www.TransAtlanticElectricConversions.com

973-875-6276 (office)
973-670-9208 (cell)
973-440-1619 (fax)

WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PROVIDERS
And ELECTRIC CAR PRODUCERS





-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers

As long as we are comparing gas to electricity directly,
does anyone know how much energy goes into refining gas
(per gallon of gas)?

For some reason I have the impression that
refining oil to get a gallon of gas uses more
electricity than it would take to go the 20 miles,
disregarding the oil.

I have no idea where I got this idea

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think its a bad idea to bring up the energy used to extract and refine
oil, in a debate it will then come back to the question
of "how much energy does it take to mine and transport the coal for your
power plant then ?"
(it doesn't matter that we're using it more efficiently in the end use....)

Unless you can show you're energy comes from wind/solar/hydro/thermal
not sure about natural gas..... I just know mining and transportation of
coal is probably pretty comparable to oil energy costs
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> The model could get very complex for folks who use biodiesel and ethanol
> and gasoline and Solar PV with additional columns in a ?spreadsheet? and a
> bit more vague when you say well it costs to suck the oil from the ground
> and refine and transport but some comes from this country and some from that
> country or grow the biodiesal precursors and convert and make the chemicals
> to do the conversion or to get teh raw silicon and convert to PV and the
> aluminium for the panels and the invertor and the cost of Lithium of Lead or
> Nickel batteries or to use some electrons generated by nukes and some by
> coal etc etc etc
>
>

Indeed  it could go on almost indefinitely.
Especially when you talk about one method being dependent on another, like
diesel electric trains to transport the coal etc..
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks
> To extract one gallon of gasoline (or equivalent distillate): 9.66 kWh
> To refine that gallon: 2.73 kWh additional energy.
> Total: 12.39 kWh per gallon.
>
> The source for this is below so I can't vouch for its validity.
> http://www.evnut.com/gasoline_oil.htm

To travel 25 miles in a Camry (real-life example,
or it was until the engine bearings seized  takes 1 gallon of gas.

So, if the above is true,
That gallon of gas uses 12 kWh of electricity.
Estimates suggest that my Camry with LiIon someday
might go 2.8 Miles on a KWh.

So my Camry which used to go 25 miles on a gallon of gas
might well travel 34 miles on the electricity saved if we
leave the crude oil alone.


Solar really is my next project once the Camry is
roadworthy (I'm not saying "finished .

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > So why do some people keep saying that the electrics aren't financially
> > better???
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hymers wrote:
> > I think its a bad idea to bring up the energy used to extract and refine
> > oil. In a debate it will then come back to the question
> > of "how much energy does it take to mine and transport the coal for your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

YMMV, of course! I don't drive newer vehicles (can't afford them!), and my 
conversion cost only about $5500 (not including my labor) - so my electric 
is much cheaper than gas!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hale" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers


>


> joe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> So why do some people keep saying that the electrics aren't financially
> >> better???
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I also recently did these calculations for our Green Expo. I used
vehicles which I own(ed). I excluded the cost of the vehicle because
that can vary significantly depending on personal preferences and
location. Also ignoring things like range limits and carrying
capacity. I assumed the task is commuting to/form work. I actually
tweaked it a little to make the EV look worse.

http://www.mediafire.com/?2yzm4mtygtm

my EV:
364Wh/mile from the wall
$0.08/kWh
20 miles/day (6,240 miles/year) 6 days/week
$2000 for batteries every 3 years

ICE:
$2.60/gallon
28 MPG
20 miles/day 6 days/week

I found that if I include replacing my battery every 3 years, driving
my EV is more costly than driving a 28MPG ICE.
It's replacing the pack that makes it less economical for me.
$12/month in energy cost is great!

There were a few things which make my EV cheaper to operate than an
ICE: (Eqns are in the linked document)
Pick ONE (it only takes one of these to make electric better):
-If gasoline costs more than $3.81/gallon (Eqn 1).
-If batteries last more than 5 years (Eqn 2).
-If traveling more than 10,416 miles/year (33 miles/day) (Eqn 3).
-If you get less than 19 MPG (Eqn 4).
-If a replacement battery pack cost less than $1200 (Eqn 5).
-If you spend more than $20/month maintaining (oil, filters) your
gasoline engine(Eqn 6).

There are lots of variables that will affect the comparison!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Aug 2009 at 9:58, Dave Hale wrote:
> 
> > She's happy I do and I love doing so, as I don't have to burn gasoline
> > for >90% of my driving, but I can't say I'm doing it for the money.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Eaa infoRe: http://www.eaaev.org/Flyers/index.html
fool cell flyer elect tramsnission line loss 7%
1gallon gas =33 Kwh, 36 ok too
Joe like your method miles per Kwh
i have been explainin watt hours
gas 80% deficent @$3 gallon $2 out tail pipe
this really makes people think
EV 80% efficent

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And, if our markets are working efficiently, comparing the costs of each
fuel to you, the consumer, is all you should need to do. Theoretically, the
cost of each fuel would represent the fully-burdened costs of each step in
the supply chain and profit for each middle-man.

Unfortunately, government subsidies and other strange things can sway this
more than one would think.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] distance conversion method numbers



> Dave Hymers wrote:
> > I think its a bad idea to bring up the energy used to extract and refine
> > oil. In a debate it will then come back to the question
> > of "how much energy does it take to mine and transport the coal for your
> ...


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