# 2000 Saturn SL conversion



## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

Helllo DIYers!

Good to be here amongst fellow tinkerers! ive been aware of your community a few years now and have been reading up more recently, and after my first 2 DIY electric bike adventures, it's time to get serious.

I've got a 2000 Saturn SL (curb weight 2,332lbs) in what should be perfect condition (overlooking the hole in the ICE's block ) 92k miles, manual. i dont want budget to be an issue when building it. it costs what it costs. a bit of an impulse buy but i've been wanting to get started for so long, ya gotta start somewhere, right? de-ICEing may take some time

I'm still doing a lot of browsing for the right components, maybe you all could throw some suggestions my way to try to cut price down while meeting my goals with the build:

-motor with high efficiency at 288v or 320v
-keep gearbox
-clutch'd
-100 mile range at 80% DoD. likely LiFePO4 (best brands?)
-regenerative braking is an absolute must
-maintain original cargo space (david85 did amazing Al battery boxes in his saturn) i'll likely be doing something similar

i've emailed 
http://www.ev-propulsion.com/adapterscouplers.html

about their saturn adapter plate, because there arent any models listed for compatibility. So, they sent me the blueprints for the adapter (attached). i havent begun the de-ICEing process yet so i cant check myself. has anyone had experience with a 2000 saturn?

EDIT: after a little more browsing on the subject on ICE repair forums i found
"91-02 blocks are compatible with all years " for the s-series, looks promising.
http://www.saturnforum.com/forum/general-tech-help-13/s-series-swap-guide-9742/


Cheers!


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

My conversion (a 2004 scion xB) is pretty much the same thing you are thinking about, except you would be retaining the tranny. Your car would be a little more aerodynamic than mine as well.

For high voltage AC, your options for motors are remy or siemens coupled with scott drive or rinehart inverter options I think, or you could find and older azure dynamics system like I have. The latter would be much cheaper (current going prices for motor/inverter combos seems to be sub $1000) but unsupported as the manufacturer is out of business. You will be paying a lot more for the other options, though everything about the other options (power, weight, etc) is much better.

For battery, owing to the light aero car you might be able to get away with a healthy 24kwh LEAF pack and get 100 miles of range. A newer 30kwh leaf pack if you could find one would definitely have enough oomph.

If you were going LiFePO4 you would need 100ah cells, and at least 30kwh worth. Thats about 600lbs. 

Your converted car will probably weigh 2800-3000lbs.

Good luck.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

madderscience said:


> My conversion (a 2004 scion xB) is pretty much the same thing you are thinking about, except you would be retaining the tranny. Your car would be a little more aerodynamic than mine as well.
> 
> For high voltage AC, your options for motors are remy or siemens coupled with scott drive or rinehart inverter options I think, or you could find and older azure dynamics system like I have. The latter would be much cheaper (current going prices for motor/inverter combos seems to be sub $1000) but unsupported as the manufacturer is out of business. You will be paying a lot more for the other options, though everything about the other options (power, weight, etc) is much better.
> 
> ...


where are you seeing ac motors with controller for under $1000?

the best deal i can find is:
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=261

i was thinking I could use 6 24v 250ah tesla packs?
it would end up as a 31.2kwh pack. but only weigh in at 330lbs!!!
what about using 7? the max rated voltage on teh controller is 170v and 7 packs would give me a 100%soc at 174.3v

how far do you think that could take me (6 packs)? 149.4v 250ah 31.2kwh

has anyone used tesla packs in their conversion? i know each pack has their own mini-bms but it looks as if they might need a master bms to balance all the individual cells properly. 

how hard is a master bms to set up? has anyone seen it done?


diyEV is so exciting! i cant wait to see what sort of batteries hit the market next few years. theres nothing like accelerating uphill on a bike like you're going downhill. i cannot wait to drive my first 4wheel ev!!!!


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

The USED azure/solectria AC systems (motor + inverter) at least around here (seattle) have been trading lately on craigslist and via EV clubs for sub $1000. They show up on ebay too but sellers often want somewhat more for them there. but again, these are used, limited supply, no factory support, and about 80HP nominal. Going new will cost a lot more, but have the benefits of lower weight, better performance, manufacturer support, etc. 

I point out these systems to people because they DO work (mine now has 32K miles on it plus whatever mileage it had prior to my obtaining it ; probably a few thousand miles more) and while they are obsolete tech they are one of the cheapest and simplest options available for someone with the knowledge and some persistence to build a high voltage AC drive EV. 

I supposed I should remember that today you can get ahold of an entire wrecked leaf for a couple thousand, and with the work people are doing to get the components to work in other vehicles, that is probably going to quickly become the new cheapest way to build a conversion.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

I'm still a little confused on HP ratings on motors I'm seeing used. for example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AZURE-DYNAM...OR-/141517373858?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

says
"
AZURE DYNAMICS HYBRID MOTOR- LM32601AB -AC90C, Max speed is 6000 RPM, Max current 420 Amps. Above is a speed-torque map and power envelope.


-Can also be used as a standard three phase motor as follows:


-25HP 
-1785 RPM 
-60Hz
-208V 
-3PH
-40Amb
"
420a * 172v(randomly selected below its max V) = 72240 watts = 96.875hp

96hp does not equal 25hp

also the RPMs listed are different?
im not understanding the significant difference between the top RPM rating and the bottom one and its surrounding numbers like. what has 25hp? is it only capable of providing/using 25hp at speeds of 1785 RPM? or is not having the right type of controller limit this motor's abilities?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

steve93 said:


> -Can also be used as a standard three phase motor as follows:
> 
> 
> -25HP
> ...


The quoted values are a little off - see the ad's photo of the data plate on the motor for a more complete version; note that "AMB 40" appears at the top with the duty cycle (so probably means 40 C ambient temperature), not with the electrical data

HP 25
RPM 1785 
Hz 60Hz
V 208
FLA 103
kW 18.7
Eff 93

So when driven at 60 Hz and 208 V with an appropriate mechanical load, it slips by 15 rpm (0.8%) from the synchronous speed of 1800 rpm (it must be a four-pole motor) and presumably takes 103 amps (assuming that "FLA" means "Full Load Amps") with a power factor significantly off of unity to produce 18.7 kw (25 hp). At 93% efficiency, that implies 20.1 kW input. There's no fancy controller in this - it's just what you get when you connect it to a source of 60 Hz 208 volt 3-phase power.

If you drove it with more voltage and had more mechanical load on it, you could feed it more power and get more power out, but "DUTY CONT" on the plate means "continuous duty", and if you try to run it at more than 25 horsepower continuously it will not maintain a steady temperature. I assume that it is normal in EVs to run motors much harder during brief acceleration bursts than they can take for a sustained period (the continuous ratings).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

steve93 said:


> "AZURE DYNAMICS HYBRID MOTOR- LM32601AB -AC90C, Max speed is 6000 RPM, Max current 420 Amps. Above is a speed-torque map and power envelope."
> ...
> 420a * 172v(randomly selected below its max V) = 72240 watts = 96.875hp
> 
> 96hp does not equal 25hp


The speed-torque-power curves look pretty typical for an induction motor. The torque is constant from near stall to the peak power speed; in this case it looks like about 660 N-m up to about 1500 rpm; that's about 104 kW. 

104 kW at 420 amps (assuming a power factor of 1) would imply 246 volts. I have no idea what the power factor would be at peak power conditions, but the actual voltage would presumably need to be greater than that. The peak power conditions also presumably mean substantially more slip than the continuous-duty conditions.

The peak power (even more than 96 hp) is about five times as high as the rated power, because the motor can't stand that peak for very long without overheating.

Although the maximum speed of the motor is 6000 rpm, the data on the charts doesn't even go that high - that's way past the speed that can be effectively used. You would never want the motor to spin that fast in the vehicle - it would be pointless at low road speed, and wouldn't produce enough power at that motor speed to move the vehicle at high road speed.

Note: The speed markings are nonsensical in both charts (the speed labels don't line up with the marks), so I assume the numeric labels are each for the axis mark to the left of the number.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

brian_ said:


> The speed-torque-power curves look pretty typical for an induction motor. The torque is constant from near stall to the peak power speed; in this case it looks like about 660 N-m up to about 1500 rpm; that's about 104 kW.
> 
> 104 kW at 420 amps (assuming a power factor of 1) would imply 246 volts. I have no idea what the power factor would be at peak power conditions, but the actual voltage would presumably need to be greater than that. The peak power conditions also presumably mean substantially more slip than the continuous-duty conditions.
> 
> ...


wow thanks for all the useful info!
im still new to this and it seems there's more to motor performance than i thought. im trying my damnedest to find an ac induction that would allow to me to cruise at 60~70mph for $1000 

are you saying this motor is not designed for a typical controller? or just that it does not have one on it. i am aware of the latter.

entering various specs for my car on
http://www.evdl.org/uve/ev.html
indicates that 21hp should be able to hold me at 60mph in perfect conditions 29.4hp for 70mph. I'm not sure if that sounds right?
my gear ratios are as follows 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, R, Final, respectively.

3.250 1.950 1.172 0.811 0.605 2.923 4.063


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

*Curtis 1239e-8521 HPEVS AC-51 Brushless AC Motor Kit - 144 Volt
*

listed for $4700 new


is the quality and type (AC) of solution i am looking for but I'm hoping something like half that price. if i can find it used, or higher voltage, great.


but if i forget about regen,
would 
this kit
be sufficient (cooling & battery willing) for 65mph cruising speeds do you think?
and what about this kit?
"In battery EV applications, the AC24LS with DMOC445 drives are designed for use in vehicles weighing from 1,000 to 3,500 lbs. The optional gearbox provides a 10:1 or 12:1 overall vehicle drive ratio with differential included."



madderscience said:


> I point out these systems to people because they DO work (mine now has 32K miles on it plus whatever mileage it had prior to my obtaining it ; probably a few thousand miles more).



what size azure motor did you use Madderscience?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

steve93 said:


> ... are you saying this motor is not designed for a typical controller? or just that it does not have one on it. i am aware of the latter.


I don't know about controller compatibility for this motor, but it appears that there is not any kind of controller attached - I assume the visible object is just a termination box for wiring. I also don't know what would change in motor design to suit a particular controller (or inverter).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

steve93 said:


> ... entering various specs for my car on
> http://www.evdl.org/uve/ev.html
> indicates that 21hp should be able to hold me at 60mph in perfect conditions 29.4hp for 70mph. I'm not sure if that sounds right?
> my gear ratios are as follows
> ...


At a guess, 21hp for 60mph or 29.4hp for 70mph might be plausible in perfect conditions, so it just becomes a matter of gearing... but that means that to sustain this sort of speed (that is, be able to continuously produce the required power) in the top gear at the motor's design conditions the motor would need to turn about 1500 rpm.

With 185/65R14 tires (887 revolutions per mile), 65 mph would be 65*887 = 961 rpm. With a 4.063:1 final drive ratio the transmission output speed would be 961*4.063 = 3904 rpm. For that result to in 1500 rpm at the motor, the transmission gear ratio would need to be 1500/3904 = 0.38:1 That's a wildly tall overdrive ratio, which no transmission has - remember that the transmission is designed to work with an engine that couldn't keep the car moving at 65 mph by turning only 1500 rpm. So the motor will not be doing 1500 rpm at that speed.

So, in top gear at 65 mph the motor speed would be 3904*0.605 = 2362 rpm (sanity check: yes, this is typical for a car like this). Up at that speed, the power curve provided for the motor says 70 kW peak - you can't sustain that due to the heat load, but perhaps with enough voltage it could work: from the torque curve, up to 310 N-m is available at 2362 rpm. That's 46 kW... more than enough. Although running much faster than the motor's ideal speed, it seems likely that the motor can happily run at this speed and power level.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

An update! The car is in its final stages of de-ICEing. Im just about ready to pull the motor out.

And I'm nearing my goal for funds for my new motor and controller.

This motor seems oversized but also awesome:
Siemens 1PV51354WS14
Dmoc645 air cooled
leaf battery 2013+

is this appropriate for my saturn? the motor was originally for ford transit vans.

hoping for a few opinions on what I've settled on for choices hardware wise


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

HOORAY! engine & transmission is now out of the saturn's engine bay! it only took me months...


I've almost got enough cheddar to get the motor I've set my sights on too.


now: adapter plate drawing time. 

I've been lucky. It turns out one of my friends friends is an apprentice over at the local machine shop and he has access to the cnc!


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## JohnDinCinci (Nov 27, 2017)

Steve any updates? I just trashed the motor on my SL2 finally, and am thinking seriously about a EV conversion. It's body is fine if aged, and the car is basically sound. Just the long term oil burn from the bad rings finally killed it. I have to admit - your equations above look like hieroglyphics to !! I guess if I could find one of the legendary used under$1000 motor/converter kits, I'd be driving to Seattle! Please, post some pics, let me know if you're still working on your car. Would be great to talk with someone working on the same vehicle!


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

JohnDinCinci said:


> Steve any updates? I just trashed the motor on my SL2 finally, and am thinking seriously about a EV conversion. It's body is fine if aged, and the car is basically sound. Just the long term oil burn from the bad rings finally killed it. I have to admit - your equations above look like hieroglyphics to !! I guess if I could find one of the legendary used under$1000 motor/converter kits, I'd be driving to Seattle! Please, post some pics, let me know if you're still working on your car. Would be great to talk with someone working on the same vehicle!



I haven't done a lot of physical work on the car itself after pulling the motor/transmission. I have however, acquired a motor and controller from evtv and the GEVCU to interact with the controller

I've got the http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=1pv5135
Siemens 1PV5135-4WS14 AC Induction Motor with the DMOC645 for like $1500 + shipping. They increased the price of their motor by $400 immediately after i bought it. Lol.

the DMOC has a questionable reputation but i think that pair'd with the GEVCU ($600) should allow me to get passed the CAN errors I've been seeing others have. (and allow use of stock gauges (not sure if i need this yet http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=clusterdriver))

right now, I'm saving up still for a wrecked leaf (battery acquisition). I kinda want the battery so I have a proper power supply to do bench testing.

I still need to get my freon out too, but i've been putting off buying the tools in hopes i'd run into someone with them.

I havent even started on drawing the CAD files for motor mounts or the adapter plate


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

aHAhahahaHA!!


waiting for parts to be made via wire EDM and CNC ~$1100. overspent and idc so 


got this (Siemens 1PV51354WS14)bad boy with an air cooled DMOC45 for like 2400
i also got a GEVCUv6 to use as my bcm.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

HALP! gah. did not know about proper gearcutters! this abomination I had made via wire EDM and it weeble wobbles on the siemens' shaft!! (HUR HUR HUR)









Its supposed to be ANSI B92.2M and its all loosey goosey.. so I called my local machinist and he's trying to tell me that my motor's bearing cant support the weight of a flywheel/clutch? he recommended putting in a support bearing.

but anyways Idk if he understood the gravity of this looseness, I havent measured but id say that when wobbled one way there's somewhere around at least 5 mils gap between the not contact sides. he's also quoting me at 1000 bucks to make a new one(after offering to buy the metric gearcutter he hasnt got) and recut ansi b92.2m and get er tight. Though he didnt sound like that was necessary.

ideas? thoughts??
anyone know a gear cutter with a better rate?

thinking about trying to electroplate this to make it that hair thicker to grab snug


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I’m a little confused. It sounds like you paid $1,100 to have this part made, right? And it doesn’t fit? Did you give them the motor to get measurements from while they were making the adapter? 

They wouldn’t get a penny from me until it was confirmed that there was an error on my end. If they made it wrong, they need to make it right if they charged you $1,100 for that...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Sounds like they didn't take into account the EDM wire overburn (.005") in the CNC programming. Was the apprentice running the job?

Using Aluminum for the coupling?


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

jbman said:


> I’m a little confused. It sounds like you paid $1,100 to have this part made, right? And it doesn’t fit? Did you give them the motor to get measurements from while they were making the adapter?
> 
> They wouldn’t get a penny from me until it was confirmed that there was an error on my end. If they made it wrong, they need to make it right if they charged you $1,100 for that...
> 
> ...


 of the ~1100, $640 was for the coupler made by edm, the other 500-some was for the adapter plate
I used eMachineshop, didnt see them in person and would have to tell the bank the charges are fraudulent in order to reverse the charges (which i already told them they werent two months ago)(they like precharged my card? it didnt actually take it out till they mailed it but i had a hold on it for those 2 months. they also said it would only take 15 business days but kept delaying.


Theyre based in NJ so giving them the motor is out of the question, i was thinkin of making a replica and mailing it with the coupler when i send it back.
I gave them the spec sheet detailing the precise specs as provided by siemens as seen here: https://ibb.co/c68Rpe
This isnt the actual siemens one. theirs is on a bigass pdf. but this matches all the numbers and such. well heres the actual siemens one: https://ibb.co/ib9i2z



kennybobby said:


> Sounds like they didn't take into account the EDM wire overburn (.005") in the CNC programming. Was the apprentice running the job?
> 
> Using Aluminum for the coupling?


you're probably right

is there something wrong with using aluminum? 

I like your avatar btw


Anybody know the truth about the strength of the bearing on my siemens? can it support the weight of a flywheel?


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't know anything about this company, but they list a coupling for the Siemens: http://www.vaxosystems.com/store/products/117-vk25018-coupling-kit.aspx
Didn't EVTV sell a coupling for this motor?
Aluminum is way to soft for this application. Does the end of the motor shaft have internal threads? If so, the coupling(like the one above) could be machined to fit the large taper next to the splines on the shaft. This would allow the coupling to be accurately and securely clamped onto the shaft with a bolt threaded into the end of the shaft. You should not rely on a press fit, only, to keep the coupling on the end of the motor shaft. And no, the force from the clutch release mechanism alone is not sufficient to keep the coupling securely on the end of the motor shaft. 

To mount a flywheel using this coupling, a flange would have to be welded to the coupling and machined to fit your flywheel. 
You'll need to pull off the end plate to check the bearing size for use in a flywheel/clutch application.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

holy smokes nice find! How do you know that that 24t coupler is the correct standard? I cant find more info about it on there. i tried find the spec sheet on their motor to see if those had said anything.

Edit: I see now it is the correct one.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> I don't know anything about this company, but they list a coupling for the Siemens: http://www.vaxosystems.com/store/products/117-vk25018-coupling-kit.aspx


Shipped out in good time, looks very high quality! 

emachineshop issued a refund. so I guess theyre A-ok. A for effort. really its my fault for not going the correct route. still, it didnt fit though. I learned also not to overestimate the ability of a CNC

I ordered a couple kinds of round bar stock to play with on my new wen lathe

I picked up some used batteries, they're four aluminum housed and potted modules 24s. 88v and 80ah.

I also picked up a BMS & 3 satellites from over at thunderstruck motors.

soo, i have a lot of the bits but still a ton of work to do. I still need to buy some EV main battery wire.

--bench test gevcu with dmoc645 and siemens
--turn down the hub out of flywheel & one from vaxo
--turn a coupler and insert both hubs, connect motor and trans and tighten the plate while she's goin and weight supported so shes in line.
--lower her in place and take measurements for mounts!!


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

steve93 said:


> Shipped out in good time, looks very high quality!
> 
> emachineshop issued a refund. so I guess theyre A-ok. A for effort. really its my fault for not going the correct route. still, it didnt fit though. I learned also not to overestimate the ability of a CNC
> 
> ...



Canadian EV makes motor adapters for common conversions. One just happens to be the early Saturns.


It seems using an available Saturn adapter, an available ACXX AC motor and an available Curtis controller would make things much easier.


Much, much easier.


Making an adapter is a royal PIA.


Been there, done that. A bunch of times. No more.


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

Russco said:


> Canadian EV makes motor adapters for common conversions. One just happens to be the early Saturns.
> 
> 
> It seems using an available Saturn adapter, an available ACXX AC motor and an available Curtis controller would make things much easier.
> ...



yes well, seeing as I've already bought everything but the charger, buying another motor seems expensive


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

Due to an unrelated battery fire (and subsequent burnination of my house) the project has been canceled and all of the hardware is for sale. All hardware is located in SW oregon. and has been stored well away from aforesaid burnination.

Siemens Motor + its controller the aircooled DMOC 

Thunderstruck EV BMS master + 3 satellites 24s each (new in box)

EVTV GEVCU new in box

one of those vaxxo systems spline couplers 

De-ICE'd Saturn SL1 2000 manual (really low mileage & great condition)
(comes with all my work on an adapter plate 3D images and a adapter plate rough draft)

Please message me
Thanks for support


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Sorry about the bad news. I hope everyone is safe. Do you know what happened?


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## steve93 (Feb 22, 2017)

cheap 36v 30ah ebike battery from mAhStore on aliexpress.com was not individually fused each cell. one in a parallel group was likely faulty and caused a cascade failure immediately following a full charge (discharged, then charged, disconnected from charger, 1hr later 4 ft jet of fire shooting out). 

It occurred in February and I've since rebuilt my house. But now terrified of large lithium batteries with parallel groups! I'm also lucky it didn't burn my workplace down or my dogs when I was out of house or that I wasn't sleeping. It was freezing outdoors so there was nowhere warm to charge it without having it indoors.

I'm broke and want shit like clothing and camping gear. I've also lost access to the shop I was using and had to relocate to a new place so can no longer work on it until the barn here is renovated. Basically "suck-fest 2019" (my dog got hit by a car too! fml) sooo get the shit while the gettings good. I'm gonna repost all this shit for sale properly in the for sale section one of these days I get around to it.


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