# What would be a good vehicle to use. needs 4x4



## birddseedd (Feb 7, 2015)

I live in Michigan, and vow not to drive a 2x4 vehicle. so what would be a good one?


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Pick something as small and light as which will meet your needs. An old jeep, bronco II, S10 blazer, older toyota or nissan pickup, samurai, or such. Weight and aerodynamics are very big factors in the cost and overall performance of an EV, but if you aren't going to be driving at highway speeds very much, then weight is the biggest factor by far. If you will be driving at freeway speeds, then depending on your range requirements you might need a pretty big battery. In michigan I am guessing you will want to be looking out of state to find one that isn't a rust bucket.

Other thoughts: late 80's or early 90's subaru wagons, or 4x4 amc eagle might give a bit better aerodynamics than pickups or SUVs and still give 4wd. I think there were even some 90's honda civic wagons that were AWD.


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## birddseedd (Feb 7, 2015)

madderscience said:


> Pick something as small and light as which will meet your needs. An old jeep, bronco II, S10 blazer, older toyota or nissan pickup, samurai, or such. Weight and aerodynamics are very big factors in the cost and overall performance of an EV, but if you aren't going to be driving at highway speeds very much, then weight is the biggest factor by far. If you will be driving at freeway speeds, then depending on your range requirements you might need a pretty big battery. In michigan I am guessing you will want to be looking out of state to find one that isn't a rust bucket.
> 
> Other thoughts: late 80's or early 90's subaru wagons, or 4x4 amc eagle might give a bit better aerodynamics than pickups or SUVs and still give 4wd. I think there were even some 90's honda civic wagons that were AWD.


thats the problem, I have a family. And I want to pack it full of batteries. so, i need something a little bigger that will hold a kid or two comfortably. some kind of compact suv

4x4 is a must


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

why 4x4 ?

id say pick the car first and then build the ev around it

being that its 4x4 and u want to put the family in it, this is gonna cost a lot, dont be under any delusions that it wont


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## birddseedd (Feb 7, 2015)

arklan said:


> why 4x4 ?
> 
> id say pick the car first and then build the ev around it
> 
> being that its 4x4 and u want to put the family in it, this is gonna cost a lot, dont be under any delusions that it wont


A 4x4 is a heck of a lot safer in harsh Michigan winters


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## Caps18 (Jun 8, 2008)

I've never driven a 4x4 in Michigan, but I have seen plenty of all types in the ditches when I drive on I-75 in my front wheel drive Saturn.  Driver skill has a part to play.

I don't know anything about how a 4x4 system works, but I would suggest that you start with this list and find a car that an adapter is made for. http://www.canev.com/adapters.php

My Dad has been driving a C-Max Energi around Michigan for two winters now and it has been fine. The batteries add weight to the back tires and it has the traction control stuff. Even with the high mileage, this car would be better than anything that will take you years to convert. It will be cheaper too. And you can get a loan for it.

http://www.wilmingtonautocenter.com/ohio-used-cars-trucks-vehicles-detail.php?Ford-769
(To be honest, I probably should have bought this car, but I need a pickup truck to actually haul stuff. I know that I have spent more money then that so far.)


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

birddseedd said:


> A 4x4 is a heck of a lot safer in harsh Michigan winters


Probably true. I am thinking about my next conversion and I have decided a small SUV like one of the crossovers is probably the way to go. I have a 3 season car in my RX-7 conversion but there are times when this is a bad choice to go out in. AWD SUV like a Honda CR-V or Toyata Rav 4 sized vehicle makes good sense. Other choices would be a Mazda CX-5, BMW X3 or several models of Subaru. A Ford Escape might work. GM probably has something as well if you insist on US built vehicles.

What you need to do is define your goals. Everyone wants a LOT of range but usually back down when it comes time to pay for it. So define reasonable goals and then we can figure out how much the batteries are going to cost. Teslas can go 200-300 miles on a charge. A big part of the cost is the batteries. If you say you NEED to go 300 miles then you are looking at conversion costs that might make buying a used Tesla seem reasonable. And if you have enough batteries to take you 300 miles you need to know that it is going to take a long time to recharge because only Teslas can use the supercharge stations and they are the only things right now that can do actual fast charging. They are two to four times faster than the closest competitor (Chademo) and not common. A typical J1772 at 30 amps would take around 9 hours to put back in enough charge to go 150 miles in a typical DIY conversion.

Best wishes!


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## miev 1 (Jan 22, 2015)

I go up to my place in MI all the time, and without 4x4 I could not get into the driveway when it snows. Sometimes a little dicey on the country roads too. 

I had looked into converting my 2008 jeep wrangler unlimited, but was very heavy - even if i stripped it down a bit. Suzuki Samaria is pretty lightweight.

Also thought of s-10 - or more recent Colorado. Not as big, but hard to find a stick. The 2004 crew is made in 5 spd., seats four, and has the bed for fitting batteries etc. They were all pretty expensive used and still is 3500 lbs. or so. 

I am leading toward a 01 range VW New Beetle. Very lightweight, have seen some conversions around, can find a 5spd pretty easily, seats four and also looks better than Metro or small econobox.

I am still way in planning stage as have to finish the MI house renovation first, but then can use my barn after clearing out construction materials etc.and can start on this project. Can't wait.

Let me know what you decide on.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

miev 1 said:


> I go up to my place in MI all the time, and without 4x4 I could not get into the driveway when it snows. Sometimes a little dicey on the country roads too.
> 
> I had looked into converting my 2008 jeep wrangler unlimited, but was very heavy - even if i stripped it down a bit. Suzuki Samaria is pretty lightweight.
> 
> ...



New Beetles are not light weight vehicles. Max weight	1680 kg.


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## miev 1 (Jan 22, 2015)

Curb weight: 1,230 kg (2,712 lb)

Not as light as my 1st car - 68 beetle. But my Miev I think is around 2500 lbs, so was thinking after removing ice etc and adding some batteries, I could come just a little over original?

Will see.

What car would you suggest that is lighter?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Many smaller vehicles are in the 2300 lb range. Nothing wrong with that weight. None at all. Hell my Leaf is heavy too. Just pick your motor and controller accordingly. I'd go with the AC setups available. If you do decide to use a New Beetle and an HPEVS system then use a diesel version that has a dead engine. The tranny will be better suited and geared for the higher torque electric motor. If you are concerned with aerodynamics then don't use the New Beetle. It is a brick. Get either the GTI 93 and up or the Jetta. GTI would be much cooler. It is also lighter in weight overall. Should still have plenty of room to have a decent battery pack. Be sure all your electrics in the VW are in excellent working condition. There are plenty of little Honda's available and Toyotas as well. A dual AC-35 if you can afford it or an AC-50 and if it would fit an AC-75. All good choices and readily available. Ive driven a couple vehicles with the AC-50 setup from HPEVS. You will love them. Im putting an AC-35 into my old VW Bus. This would be the smallest Id put in any on the road vehicle that needs to go on the freeway.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't understand the perceived need for 4x4. A front wheel drive car with good winter tires goes just about anywhere except off-road, and does that more efficiently than any SUV with its high frontal area and extra weight to lug around. 4wd is only safer if it gets you out of a snowbank - like others have said, it mostly gives people overconfidence in winter driving and that tends to dump them in the ditch. A limited range vehicle like an EV conversion that real humans can afford has no business on back roads in winter- 4x4 or not, when you're stuck there's no tank of gas or diesel to keep you warm until help arrives. Just my opinion- feel free to spend your money and time and effort any way you want!


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## miev 1 (Jan 22, 2015)

I will leave 4x4 up to the owner. But just a note. Last snow in Chicago and we were having trouble getting out of the un-plowed alley. After some shoveling around the garage door, I gave the 4x4 (allwheel) Outlander in lock and anti-slip to wife - took her 15 minutes of spinning and almost got completely stuck and almost hit the neighbors garage slipping sideways!

I took Miev (with antislip off also) and with some spinning and rocking, got it out too. But the Miev just seemed to glide over the snow. While the suv spit it up. The snow was 10-12" in alley and was hitting the nose of the Miev, but I think its light weight made all the difference. Now, I would not go snow drift busting with this thing, but I was impressed!


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## miev 1 (Jan 22, 2015)

onegreenev said:


> . If you do decide to use a New Beetle and an HPEVS system then use a diesel version that has a dead engine. The tranny will be better suited and geared for the higher torque electric motor. If you are concerned with aerodynamics then don't use the New Beetle. It is a brick. .


Good point, about the tranny. I was thinking of the turbo also, as i think it is made for higher torque?

Ha, yes I looked at Cd numbers. Bug is not good. But the original is even worse. Interesting to look at. Some on the list.

0.38	VW NewBeetle without wing or spoiler 0.39 2003
0.48	Volkswagen Beetle (original design)[21][22]	1938
0.60 a typical truck	
0.57	Hummer H2	2003
0.24	Mercedes-Benz C-Class[106]	2014–Present
0.24	Mercedes-Benz S-Class[105]	2014–Present
0.24	Tesla Model S[107]	2012
0.25	Audi A2 1.2 TDI	2001
0.25	Honda Insight	1999-2006
0.25	Hyundai Sonata Hybrid	2013

Not sure how the S-Class is one of the best? I would not be using the express a lot with my ev build, but this is good to know. Maybe I should use an Audi a2 diesel or Hyundai!


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

Land Rover 88 Series... Pick up a basketcase or import fairly cheap. Also note there are longer 109 variants and pickup styles. Also there is even a military one called the lightweight... don't get fooled though, it weighs more than a stock 88.

The 88 which is also it's wheelbase is 2953 lbs, max allowable 4453. 450 lbs of that is the cast iron block engine. No idea how much the top is, but it can come off too (and the doors, tailgate, etc.).

Modular body design, so tons of nice flat removable panels. Seats 7 if you keep the benches. Aluminum body. Ladder box frame (usually rusted). Also has a lovely bulkhead behind the drivers seats for either battery box or controller mounting. Also space under seats; where gas tank and battery is located. Simple square engine bay too. Another nifty is with locking hubs and a real transfer case, you eliminate the rotating mass of the front end works when disengaged. Because of it's payload capacity, you could load it down with batteries without suspension swapping. Manual brakes, steering, etc. for even more conversion ease.

Pick an IP67 rated motor to handle the wet like those Siemans ones. Get a powerglide; lots of transfercases can be mated and there are aftermarket ones too as well as twin sticks. 

The weak link might be the front and rear ends... axle strength is questionable since stock motor is really weak but might hold up; 70 hp, 120 ft/lbs. Plus they are full-floater axles which means easy to pull and fix.

I'd hate to see it's Cd... it's a brick and wasn't designed to make it over 60 mph.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

I've got a 1962 Land rover series IIA so I can weigh in on that idea.

These vehicles are very heavy, despite the aluminum body. Something about that box section frame, and ridiculously overbuilt driveline and suspension. Their CdA is also terrible, worse than almost anything else on the road for their size. If you are plowing around on back roads in the snow that doesn't matter but trying to go anywhere on the highway your range will really suffer. I think I computed somewhere (don't remember the source info though) that the CdA on my rover is about 2m^2 whereas on my xB it is about 0.8m^2, or the rover is 2.5x worse despite the two vehicles being somewhat similarly shaped.

I think my truck, which is an 88 "station wagon" with the tropical top and all 4 original jump seats, but no extras like winch or roof rack, weighs in at about 3500lbs if I remember right. This is the top of the trim lines available at the time for the 88 so also the heaviest. The early 60's land rover advert on my wall suggests an 88" regular (most spartan) weighs 2900lbs which agrees with what MightyAA said.

It is true that the stock 2.25 engine is the source of a lot of the extra weight; alone it is about 500lbs, so an EV conversion losing that along with the radiator, gas tank, exhaust, etc. could actually lose weight over the original drivetrain, depending on the battery size. There is a lot of room under the frame, but not as much (on an 88) as you might think owing to all the cross members, driveshafts, and transfer case/transmission and other things going on down there. The engine compartment is also pretty narrow, more so than most cars owing to the design of the fenders. However I bet it would be possible to find room for at least 20kwh of lithium without putting any cells in the passenger/cargo area or outboard the main frame rails. You might need to put quite a bit under the hood, er... bonnet, though.

Older series trucks did have a weak link in the rear axle, the half shafts were known to snap under excess load. I've done it twice, it is very annoying. However there are stronger military 24 spline axles, or the later trucks had 'salisbury' axles (basically a dana 60) that eliminated that problem. The front axles can break two but it is much rarer.

My truck is 'petrol' for now, and will eventually go diesel, at least until batteries improve another 5x or so in energy density.


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

Mine's a '73 Series II 88 station wagon. 
Highway has never ever been a strong suit, even stock it's top speed was 65 IF you were willing to push that pathetic (or brilliant depending) engine and risk it. More weight can come off with a canvas top. Photo below looks like a Series I and gives you an idea; No inner door panels, no carpet, see that box below the seats? It is spartan; my series III is about like that. Door panels are 1/4" particle board with stretched vinyl.. Which makes it a great candidate for a swap because it's as light as it's going to get straight from the factory so there's no stripping sound deadening or 'foofoo' dressup panels others would have to do to really lighten it. 

If you google enough, I found one older lead battery Series conversion doing Moab trails. 










The interesting one is the testbed electric Land Rover Defender. It's a 110 Defender; tons more weight. There are various youtube reviews of it going through it's offroad motions when LR had a press day. Even think Top Gear had it for a bit. The Series is lighter, doesn't have new fangled 'fancy' things like power steering, AC or radio. It can be done... But the question for me came down to 'why'.

I decided against it because it would go off-road. Given the range issue, plus how much juice it'd drain climbing rocks and hills, there was no way to get it there and back without trailer. Defeated the purpose really fast. But as a all weather commuter?


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## CasaDelGato (Aug 8, 2007)

I like my 95 F-250 4x4 Supercab Longbed.
Only about 70mi range, but does what I need.


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