# Check my diagram for accuracy?



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am equipping my Cadillac build with 3 charging inlets, a 220V 50 amp, a regular 110V, and a J plug. I want these all to be isolated from each other, so that I could accidently plug in two different cords, and to ensure that none of the other two inlets are dangerous to the touch while the third one is charging the car. I have mapped out a proposed diagram, and was hoping some of you could check it out to ensure that I did not overlook something. I have included the 12 volt DC circuit that powers the Orion, the relay logic, and the 12 volt coils on the AC main contactors, as well as a description of how my relays work, and of course an AC circuit to my charger. My Orion provides a negative drain signal to activate an AC main contactor. The term "AC DC" in my diagrams refers to a netbook power supply that is able to plug into world wide voltage, and puts out 12 VDC. Thanks!




























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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

haven't sorted it out totally, but both the leads on US 240v are "hot", so grounding them directly is probably a no-no. If you have a 120 connecting ground to neutral especially (or via j1772), but also generally. Maybe I'm misreading it.

Edit, if they are all connected via bridge rectifiers (and that doesn't affect charger operation), do you need so many relays?

Edit2, reread, ok, what if all 3 ports are in a panel with a sliding cover that only allows access to one at a time?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> haven't sorted it out totally, but both the leads on US 240v are "hot", so grounding them directly is probably a no-no. If you have a 120 connecting ground to neutral especially (or via j1772), but also generally. Maybe I'm misreading it.
> 
> Edit, if they are all connected via bridge rectifiers (and that doesn't affect charger operation), do you need so many relays?


I have not drawn in any ground wires yet, but I usually just bolt it to the charger where it bolts to the chassis. If there was a way to use fewer relays, I would be interested, but have not been able to come up with a solution that uses fewer relays. I use my 220V 50 amp inlet the most, and this uses very little relay action, so I use "AC DC" B, and contactor B for my 50 amp 220V connection. It looks like I marked the B circuit as 110 in my drawing instead of 220, but for the purpose of illustrating my proposed circuits, it won't make any difference. I just want to ensure that only one of those contactors can open at a time, and that the Orion receives this "AC DC' 12V dc from only one of the 3 AC DC power supplies. This DC from the AC DC converters is separate from the 12V DC that comes from my auxiliary battery system, and the Orion has separate inputs for it so it can wake up in either charge mode or drive mode.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> Edit2, reread, ok, what if all 3 ports are in a panel with a sliding cover that only allows access to one at a time?


Lol, I often look at that and try to plot something like that out. On my last conversion, I only used circuits a and b, since it does not have a J plug, but the 50 amp is in the fuel door and the 110 is way over on the back of the car. The large number of relays here is actually not so bad, since only a few get used at once. Circuit a uses the most, so I like to use circuit a for my 110 since I don't use it much. I do like your logic on the sliding door, but it won't work on what I am building here.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

how about all 3 ganged together, but feed a red led by each port when the AC bus is powered?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> how about all 3 ganged together, but feed a red led by each port when the AC bus is powered?


A curious kid could still touch the live MALE pins on the 110 and the 50 amp 220.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

k, good point. 

I know you don't like adapters, but how about keeping the 50 amp port and a 120v and a j1772 adapter for a pinch?

fyi, here is how the AVC2 handles an additional port:
http://modularevpower.com/Wiring/J1772 and NEMA wiring.htm

maybe just have a j1772 port and a 50a, and an adapter for rare 120v use on the 50a?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am putting a lot into the theme of this build, and am after a very professional result. Basically, I want to be able to plug whatever cord I have handy into the car without having to use adapters, and I want them all to be safe and professional looking. If the 110 and the 50 amp inlets were female instead of male, it would all be a lot easier to build, but then normal extension cords would not be able to work. The diagram above seems simple enough, and I have a case of 50 of those relays that I got off of eBay for $55. If I have mapped this relay logic out correctly, the whole thing will cost me less than $100 including the contactors, to make a very functional inlet isolation circuit. I was mostly hoping somebody would be able to double check my relay logic in case I am overlooking something.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> maybe just have a j1772 port and a 50a, and an adapter for rare 120v use on the 50a?


The cool factor. When you stop by your buddy's house to bs, and you use his extension cord to plug your car in, an adapter is kinda hoaky. Although I do not like 110 that much, it is still the most common plug in North America. I will still have a few adapters for use with my 50 amp inlet, but those are lower priority. 3 isolated inlets is actually my compromise, since I could be pretty happy with 6 isolated inlets and 12 relays...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> The cool factor.


 well you could install the low profile 120v adapter before getting to your buddies house...


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> well you could install the low profile 120v adapter before getting to your buddies house...


Were you able to track that relay logic? I just went over it again this morning over coffee, so I think I am going to go with it. It is probably a lot of trouble for somebody to trace the logic if they are not into playing chess...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

more like it seems way overcomplicated, like reinventing the ENIAC when all you need is the female version of this


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> more like it seems way overcomplicated, like reinventing the ENIAC when all you need is the female version of this


Those things don't look very sexy...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Those things don't look very sexy...


hire a bikini model to handle the cable switching? Kind of like with the ENIAC, only with bikinis? You might have to pay extra for them to pose next to a metro though


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I don't have the knowledge or skills of a committee of SAE engineers, but I would like to have the look and function of the inlets to be pretty nice. I try to envision what that SAE team of engineers would come up with if they had to build an EV charging inlet system that conforms to the existing infrastructure, including my favorite 50 amp and a 110, as well as the up and coming J plug. This is why I am avoiding adapters and covers, and certainly live exposed male pins. It all has to be built into the car, so that there is no need for a big funky cable and box type of EVSE. The Orion is providing a delay and safety check before activating the appropriate inlet contactor, so there is no arcing when you plug in your favorite extension cord either.

The car manufacturers and engineers either cannot or will not outfit EVs to utilize the huge and functional existing electrical infrastructure, they are only concerned with an infrastructure that is not mature or certain yet. This leaves us DIY guys to deal with today on our own, but there is no reason for us to be stuck with hoaky, cumbersome, or dangerous charging inlets, nor do we need to submit to using nothing but the J plug. We should actually be better off than the guys driving manufactured EVs are, since we can charge anywhere we want, including the few places where the manufactured ones can charge.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

well the more complicated, the more buggier IMHO. Somehow you got 3 pages of stuff there.

If you are bent on 3 exposed metal inlets, I'd suggest using 2 dpdt relays (like in the AVC2 diagram, or in newer juiceboxes, or openevse) connected like this to get the isolation sorted out. j1772 can be either 120 or 240 so this will work with either, and the 14-50 has the short path (and the powered contacts usually handle more power). Then you are guaranteed to have power to the charger leads and can trigger whatever/however from there. Using dpdt relays eliminates the possibility of an invalid stuck relay condition.

50A 240v coil dpdt relay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-YC-GP-D...469?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad9d12e9d

30A 120v coil dpdt relay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/YuCo-RELAY-...163?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9c010fd3


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The old Lester chargers have male 120 and 240 volt inputs. They are not live if the charger is connected to the battery pack but not plugged in. They are both live if the charger is plugged in to either input. The manufactures solution was a sliding door so that only one of the male inputs could be exposed at any time. You plugged into that one so no live pins where exposed.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Left field here, but how about finding a connector that can do single leg 120, two leg 240 and J1772, then make three pig tails. Then you will never have an exposed male connector. This seems like a lot of work when J1772 chargers are becoming more common in the wild, and you can pick up a wind-up portable J1772 for not too much money

http://www.amazon.com/TurboCord-Dua..._8?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1431663414&sr=1-8


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

jwiger said:


> http://www.amazon.com/TurboCord-Dua..._8?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1431663414&sr=1-8


Warning, that has a weird plug, and is pricey. Since he probably has a 14-50 already, a ready made adapter is like $250
http://modularevpower.com/Sales_J1772_to_NEMA_14-50_Adapters.htm

and a 120 to 14-50 adapter is a trip to lowes.

Despite the fact that every new EV comes with a 120 to j1772 adapter in the trunk (and tesla has adapters too), to take advantage of the huge availability in a pinch, he doesn't like it. But adapters are to be expected in a transitional period.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> well the more complicated, the more buggier IMHO. Somehow you got 3 pages of stuff there.
> 
> If you are bent on 3 exposed metal inlets, I'd suggest using 2 dpdt relays (like in the AVC2 diagram, or in newer juiceboxes, or openevse) connected like this to get the isolation sorted out. j1772 can be either 120 or 240 so this will work with either, and the 14-50 has the short path (and the powered contacts usually handle more power). Then you are guaranteed to have power to the charger leads and can trigger whatever/however from there. Using dpdt relays eliminates the possibility of an invalid stuck relay condition.
> 
> ...


Those contactors that you mention are a fantastic idea, and those are the ones that are in my diagrams, marked contactor A, B, and C. I am using the 80 amp ones like the ones in the juicebox. In fact, I even got this batch directly from the guy who makes the juicebox. You can see the coils for these on my DC diagram, and the contacts on my AC diagram. These contactors are very inexpensive, so 3 of these and 6 inexpensive relays make for a very inexpensive way to get what I want.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

jwiger said:


> Left field here, but how about finding a connector that can do single leg 120, two leg 240 and J1772, then make three pig tails. Then you will never have an exposed male connector. This seems like a lot of work when J1772 chargers are becoming more common in the wild, and you can pick up a wind-up portable J1772 for not too much money
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/TurboCord-Dua..._8?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1431663414&sr=1-8



I think DCB is starting to understand me...

I am interested in equipping my EV with the up and coming J plug, as seen in my diagram, but I am not ready to ignore the vast existing charging grid that is already here. The existing power grid is so complete that it would seem foolish to ignore it in my opinion, so I am equipping my EV to take advantage of the biggest charging network known to mankind AND tomorrow's J plug. Since the existing power grid is not going anywhere anytime soon, I want to make it as easy as possible to connect to it, which means fewer adaptors, and more connections.

Here are the two cords that are common in my environment. Notice that the ends on both of these extension cords are female, since the male ends of them are plugged into the wall. The larger plug in the picture is my 50 amp 220V cord that I use around my shop to plug in my welders, and the smaller 110V plug is the one that can be found in every home and business in North America. Just a plain old extension cord. This is how we have been plugging stuff in for decades past, and decades to come.










To smoothly connect to the existing power grid, my car looks like this for my 220V 50 amp inlet:










and like this for the 110v inlet.











To accomplish all of this and to keep it safe, I figured that all that really needs to be done is to install the inlets of my choice, and then just isolate them from each other. I drew up a simple relay logic diagram for how I will isolate them from each other, but I did not realize that this concept would generate so many other suggestions of how to wire the inlets. Although I am not interested in connecting my car any other way than with my two male inlets that easily connect to the existing power grid and of course that J plug inlet, I really love to see the number of ideas that have come up in lieu of what I am proposing. Ideas from a community help me come up with ideas. Hopefully some of you may be able to play devils advocate with the actual diagrams that I posted too...


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

This is all you need for the isolation part as far as I can tell. Why you want to add (I can't really comprehend your diagrams) 6? relays and another dpdt, and what, 4 power supplies? I really dont think that would be SAE style. You did ask if you were missing anything obvious, that is it.

Also the oddball 6-50 plug you have is likely only useful at home, might as well install j1772 there and an inexpensive EVSE at home and cut the ports down to 2 (and only need 1 dpdt relay), or just the j1772.

I appreciate you are a stubborn fellow, but c'mon.











evmetro said:


> ..so I am equipping my EV to take advantage of the biggest charging network known to mankind AND tomorrow's J plug.


Well, since you aren't adding a retractable 120v chord, you will be going in the trunk for an extension chord. While every EV sold in the states comes with something like this already, to take advantage of household outlets. You haven't really gained anything just horribly overcomplicated things with random priorities. Replace the 6-50 with a j1772 under the gas lid, install an inexpensive evse at home (i use a dedicated portable modified for 240v), and grab a $200 120-j1772 for opportunity charging on the road. Not hokey, or unsafe, or whatever 
you are implying, just practical. Arguably more safe because the only car connection will have safety interlocks and GFCI protection. 



evmetro said:


> ...I try to envision what that SAE team of engineers would come up with if they had to build an EV charging inlet system that conforms to the existing infrastructure



j1772 IS SAE! They wouldn't run a plain extension cord to your car, period.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

evmetro, I like to challenge myself too, but the chances of a complicated system staying safe it too risky for me. Here is an idea though. A rotary switch that can only accept power from one (of several) inputs and a single output. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-We...11194&pid=100338&rk=18&rkt=28&sd=231479134756


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> Replace the 6-50 with a j1772 under the gas lid, install an inexpensive evse at home (i use a dedicated portable modified for 240v), and grab a $200 120-j1772 for opportunity charging on the road. Not hokey, or unsafe, or whatever


Replacing the 6 50 with a J1772 would not make much sense, since circuit C in my diagram already includes a J plug. if I were to replace the 6 50 with a J plug, then I would have two identical inlets.

I am glad to see that you have a charging inlet that you are fond of, but defending it or promoting it is lost on me, since we both agree that the J plug is a great plug, and I am in fact adding one as seen in in my diagram. 

The 110 volt cord that comes in the trunks of new EVs may in fact make charging from a 110V outlet, but it is not really the same thing as a regular extension cord. There is a large funky box built into the cord, instead of into the car where it belongs, and if you lose it, break it, or get it stolen, it is expensive to replace. Even though it was designed by SAE engineers, it is in fact very hokey. The very concept of using an adapter to connect a power outlet to a power inlet because they are different, is hokey, and that funky cord you are talking about is an adapter. Not only is it an adapter and hokey, it's purpose is limited as well. DCB, I am fine with having a J plug inlet on my car, and am doing it as we speak, but failure to equip an EV with a traditional 110 inlet would be shooting yourself in the foot when 110 is the largest charging network in the USA. The new EV manufacturers include that hokey adapter because even they could recognize the need to charge from the existing power grid.

As for what you are saying about how an SAE engineer would not design what I am talking about, you are quite wrong on this, and here is why. The situation that I proposed was clearly hypothetical, and anything is possible in a hypothetical world. I would however suspect that if an engineer needed the employment, he could be contracted or employed to develop exactly what I suggested. The fact that new EVs have the above mentioned funky EVSE cord in a suitcase in the trunk instead of a simple 110v inlet with the same circuitry is proof that an SAE engineer will develop whatever their employers want.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> but failure to equip an EV with a traditional 110 inlet would be shooting yourself in the foot when 110 is the largest charging network in the USA. The new EV manufacturers include that hokey adapter because even they could recognize the need to charge from the existing power grid.


I think adding 10 relays and 4 power supplies is beyond hokey, so you can grab a standard extension cord from your trunk, instead of a modified extension cord (common practice). Nobody is denied the utility or access to 120v or inconvenienced in the slightest. 

You are defeating safety and reliability out of a twisted sense of pride.

re: stealing boxes, yah, that can happen. There are simpler solutions than this hokey 3 page mess you have come up with, but you are closed minded about it all.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

jwiger said:


> evmetro, I like to challenge myself too, but the chances of a complicated system staying safe it too risky for me. Here is an idea though. A rotary switch that can only accept power from one (of several) inputs and a single output.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-We...11194&pid=100338&rk=18&rkt=28&sd=231479134756


Wow, that is a cool switch! At 25 amps, I don't think it would do well at 50 amps, but I bookmarked that switch for other things I am working on.

My ultimate goal is to be able to pick up a regular extension cord and just plug it in without having to do anything special. I have built a few Metros, but none of those have luxury in their themes like this particular build does. The theme of this particular build is luxury, so the classiest way I can think of to connect it is to be able just plug in whatever cord you want. No adapters, no switches, just plug it in. The switch you suggested is a lot classier than an adapter, but it still does not offer the luxury that I am after for this particular build. Since I am not an EE, and my formal education ended after 3 years of high school, I needed to come up with a simple solution for this, so that is why this simple system is only a few relays and contactors instead of a fancy circuit board and computer chip. I can understand a simple relay that switches between two contacts, and I can understand the simple contactors that DCB mentioned that just connect two legs of AC, so this is what I used. The AC to DC power supplies are cheap, and common laptop power supplies that work on any voltage. All this stuff is just common DIY variety stuff, nothing high tech. There may still be another solution for my needs, but this system is about all I could come up with.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

DCB, I am fascinated with your obsession against my charging inlet configuration, and am interested in being able to see things your way. Could you answer a couple of questions that might help me understand your viewpoint?

1. Do you understand that a charger does in fact work on 110 AC to charge an EV pack, even if it is slower than 220?

2. How many common appliances do you know of that operate on 110, but use a plug that is different than the standard 110 plug?

3. If everything that is inside of one of those EVSE cords that adapt a car to 110 could be mounted inside of a manufactured EV instead of in that cord, and a traditional 110 inlet like the one that I am using was mounted next to the J plug inlet, why don't they do it?

4. Do you realize that I am also equipping my EV with a J plug inlet, and not just a 110 and a 50 amp 220?

5. If we were to open up the funky box on an EVSE trunk cord, which would be more complex; the EVSE, or my system?

6. Why do manufacturers include an EVSE that adapts the inlet to 110 in every car?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

1. That should be clear from the diagram I provided in post 16 which clearly uses a 120v source and a 14-50 240v and 240v relay (though I should have guessed you'd have a weird 6-50) and a j1772 that will pass through either 120 or 240.

After reviewing my post, do you think there is a question here? 

2. Not many, and neither does the portable EVSE I pictured. It is as easy to use as an extension cord, comes with every car. (though the $600 one is an oddball plug, still scratching my head on that one). I'm fine with a DIY extension cord, but you added multiple plugs and safety concerns (solely because you find adapters "hokey"), the SAE has addressed the safety concerns, if you are concerned.
edit: there are lots of appliances however that have an adapter in the cord. You are using several such adapters in your proposal.


3. Different GFCI requirements, handshake requirements, advertising available current, charge enable, proximity, prescribed by the SAE when charged with developing a safe way to charge an EV.

4. I don't know where else you are likely to find a 6-50, so probably better off with a wall mounted j1772 @home and get rid of the 6-50.

5. Your system. EVSE is a bit of logic, a couple watt power supply, a relay, a current sensor. You have 9 relays (3 dpdt) a j1772, a 6-50, a 5-15, and several isolated 40 watt probably pfc switchmode power supplies and wiring all over the place. I haven't heard your objections to the two relay approach in post 16, that I bothered to draw for you. And who knows what you will run into when actually trying to interface with the j1772 available current signal or enable charge signal or proximity while trying to maintain straight 240/120 capability. If it is a simple avc2 you don't know how much power you can draw (assume 30A? not on 120v), if it is built into the charger then it may get confused when the signals aren't there.

6. It is a federal requirement, and a good idea to be able to use 120v in a pinch.

I can't think of anyone who would be like "can you believe that evmetro guy! he used an adapter!" though.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> 1. That should be clear from the diagram I provided in post 16 which clearly uses a 120v source and a 14-50 240v and 240v relay (though I should have guessed you'd have a weird 6-50) and a j1772 that will pass through either 120 or 240.


I went back and reviewed post 16 with an open mind. I did not notice the first time that those were AC coils, but I see that now. This would be a problem in my builds, since the contactor that is allowing my AC current to enter the car (AC mains) is controlled via a drain from the Orion. The Orion checks for faults and I have various events programmed into it that allow it to disconnect AC power from the car if need be. I see that I labeled that drain "charge enable" on the second pic, but this is actually "charger safety", and I have a separate drain sign a for charge enable. Anyway, isolating the male inlets from each other is not the sole purpose of those three AC contactors, they also open and close when the Orion detects a safety fault or other reason to disconnect AC power from the car. They need to be 12V DC to work right. 
The AC DC power supplies are needed for other functions as well. There are two 12V DC positive inputs for the Orion. The DC DC 12 volt input is used to wake the Orion up into the drive mode, and the AC DC 12 volt input is used to wake the Orion input up into charge mode. The AC DC power supply is used even if there is only 1 AC inlet on the car, so it is not there for the sole purpose of operating the AC main contactor.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> 2. Not many, and neither does the portable EVSE I pictured. It is as easy to use as an extension cord, comes with every car. (though the $600 one is an oddball plug, still scratching my head on that one). I'm fine with a DIY extension cord, but you added multiple plugs and safety concerns (solely because you find adapters "hokey"),


Ok, now I am a little confused. As far as I understand the connections, manufactured EVS are only equipped with only the J plug inlet, and no traditional 110 inlet. It would seem that if you wanted to connect a car that has no traditional 110 inlet to a traditional 110 outlet, you would need an adapter of some sort.

my extension cords are not DIY. They are very inexpensive to buy, so I just use store bought ones. 

I would be interested in knowing more about the multiple safety concerns that I have added. Can you tell me more about these?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

you can keep plug isolation and charge termination/enable as separate concerns. in the post 16 diagram, you will have power to the charger leads, and can add a 12v adapter there (instead of 3 and numerous 12v relays) and if you need another 12v coil relay for charge termination that would be the obvious place.

the 120v relay can be mounted near the j1772/5-15 inlets, with 2 leads to the 240v relay (near the 6-50, which you don't really need if you have an evse at home).

And it is your concern that a kid could poke around at the car and electrocute themselves, but you are bypassing gfci, to avoid using a 120v portable evse and a dedicated 240v evse at home. And hoping someone will sign off on your approach (or that you can bribe an SAE engineer in to coming up with the same approach, after wondering what SAE would come up with, when j1772 and an adapter IS what they came up with), so your safety concerns themselves are kind of hokey.

By DIY I mean not OEM, i.e. diyelectriccar. I've no problem with a DIY using an extension cord, OEMs would have huge liability problems at this point. But if you are going to claim your approach is for "safety", then the safest approach IS just use j1772 and limit the number of places where something could go wrong (i.e. extra plugs and relays that need their own power supply to keep things "safe").

And it isn't at all clear how you intend to interface with j1772 and straight AC without more stuff you havent thought of yet.

I would say, your safest bet is to install j1772 plug, integrate a portable evse box (somehow) so that it only triggers proximity and etc when powered (signal level relays), and plug your extension cord into that. Lose the 6-50, and get a home evse for 240v. It won't be as safe as gfci from the wall when you are on 120, but nobody will steal it (hopefully)


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I am interested in understanding your strong opposition to using anything other than a J plug inlet to connect an EV, and I suspect that there is something that I am not grasping that is blocking my understanding of this. It must be important if you would be willing to surrender the most popular connection in the country, and if you would pay money for a home charging station even though you already have a nice 50 amp connection. My limited understanding of electricity tells me that one should not connect two hots or a hot and neutral through your fingers or skin, so I have proposed a way to make the male inlet pins on the charging inlets that are not in use stay dead. If they are not live, one would not be able to get shocked if he accidently touched the pins. My limited understanding of connecting things under load tells me that the repeated arcing will wear out the pins and that one should not do this, so I have it set up so that I plug the extension cord into a dead inlet, and the inlet does not allow current to flow until after my Orion has gone through its safety checks and close the inlet contactor. I was a Snap On dealer a few years back, and often managed to pull out of my driveway with my 110 extension cord still plugged in, so I had to bend the male inlet pins back a few times, so on my EVs, I take advantage of the Orions charge interlock. When the charge cord is plugged in, the AC DC power supply tells the orion that the cord is still plugged in and if the ignition key is turned on the Orion won't allow the discharge enable to turn on my controller. 

I understand that I will need to "trick" a charging station into turning on via those various additional signals that don't seem relevant to my car, but as far as I know, all I need is a pair of hots or a hot and neutral to get my pack charging. The GFCI sounds like a neat thing to set up, but I can't imagine a person plugging in their car in the rain. My parents taught me when I was a kid that water and electricity don't mix, so I have never tried plugging something in while it is wet. A gfci makes a lot of sense next to a sink that could be full of water and a hair dryer sitting next to it, but maybe I will look into adding gfci protection to my build as well in case I were to ever do something as dumb as plugging in a wet extension cord. I charge my EVs inside at my shop and at home, but if I were out and about and needed to charge in the rain, I could just use my J plug connection at a public charging station. 



> 3. Different GFCI requirements, handshake requirements, advertising available current, charge enable, proximity, prescribed by the SAE when charged with developing a safe way to charge an EV.


Why do these items need to be located outside of the vehicle, and not inside the vehicle behind the scenes?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> Why do these items need to be located outside of the vehicle, and not inside the vehicle behind the scenes?


"need" is a strong word. But it isn't hard to imagine why, if an extension cord gets caught up in a kick scooter or something, it is live. So a wall mounted (or a box with a short pigtail) evse will provide the most protection.

It could be onboard, and any ac wiring leading to it wouldn't be gfci protected (or the cord itself), except the j1772 port when plugged into a proper evse. I dunno, maybe the car accidentally rolls back down the driveway and manages to yank on the internals just wrong. Or some rodents like it in there.

But if I were using it so often that I was worried it would get stolen, I would probably secure it onboard somehow, but there are like 300,000 cars out there with a portable evse in the trunk, and no epidemic to report.

There is another trick you should be aware of, and it is unabashedly hokey and unsexy, but with a little probing and another extension cord you can probably find 2 5-15 outlets on different legs at your buddies house to make 240v and cut the charge time by like 2/3rds.
(assuming he doesn't have a handy 14-50 there already or something), and the uglier and more jury-rigged your portable evse is, the less likely someone will want to steal it


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just surfed a few sites, looking at electric lawnmowers. None of them were equipped with J plug inlets, just the classic old 110 inlets. Electric lawnmowers are probably more common than EVs, and the SAE has not stepped up with a special plug for lawnmowers, so I think I am going to just go on with my plan to have the 50 amp, the J plug, and the good old fashion 110 inlet. I have been using the 50 amp and the 110 male inlets on my other conversions with no trouble, and my oldest and first conversion has beautiful perfect new looking inlet blades after all this time. When people ask me at a car show how I charge the car, they always seem to understand when I tell them "just plug it in" and open the little cover to show them the familiar male inlet blades on the 110 inlet. It is immediately clear how it works. I already have nice 220 extension cords for my welders, so I am not really in any hurry to go out and buy a 50 amp charging station. I may end up having to do this to verify that my J plug inlet is working properly, but I am really just installing the J plug to add more opportunities to charge. 

As for my diagram that I was hoping to get somebody to double check my relay logic on, I will just wire it up and test it out. I had a blast plotting it, and it felt like a good game of chess. It is often kinda neat to see the number of things that come up when building an EV where I have to take a pioneering spirit and just do it. It surprises me a little to see how so many EV folks are unable to see the relevance of the existing power grid with it's vast number of outlets, when it offers the lifeblood of an EV. They can't see the forest through the trees.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> and the SAE has not stepped up with a special plug for lawnmowers


You expect the society of AUTOMOTIVE engineers to weigh in on lawnmowers? Also remember j1772 is designed to handle up to 20kw ([email protected]).




evmetro said:


> so I think I am going to just go on with my plan


It is clear you are not open to any feedback except what you want to hear. IT IS WAY OVERCOMPLICATED FOR THE JOB AT HAND (caps in case you can't hear). 3x too many adapters and relays. And merging with j1772 is yet another set of headaches, that was already solved with adapters. With your methodology that will be another 10 adapters and relays 



evmetro said:


> It surprises me a little to see how so many EV folks are unable to see the relevance of the existing power grid with it's vast number of outlets, when it offers the lifeblood of an EV. They can't see the forest through the trees.


That is some crap talk. Every EV sold can plug into 120, and pretty much every diy ever made got its power from the grid. Every evse is powered by the grid and the spec allows for 120 and 240. It is an utterly rediculous position. An evse is nothing compared to the cost of an EV and you can make an adapter for ANY kind of plug you are likely to encounter. There is nothing that special about your approach, except the rube goldbergness of it.

You are stuck in "appliance grade" thinking, where an EVSE would be cost prohibitive, and never expected to supply up 20kw of power, to a device that might have people strapped inside of it, in a garage attached to a $400k house, with people sleeping in it.

You can't really compare a lawnmower to an EV.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> You expect the society of AUTOMOTIVE engineers to weigh in on lawnmowers? Also remember j1772 is designed to handle up to 20kw ([email protected]).


No, and I am not sure why they are weighing in on a 110v inlet for an EV if it is only using as much as an electric lawnmower





> It is clear you are not open to any feedback except what you want to hear. IT IS WAY OVERCOMPLICATED FOR THE JOB AT HAND (caps in case you can't hear). 3x too many adapters and relays. And merging with j1772 is yet another set of headaches, that was already solved with adapters. With your methodology that will be another 10 adapters and relays


The all caps in case I can't hear is not enough to break the apparent communication barrier. I may very well be the one who is responsible for the failure to communicate, but the all caps does not make me understand any better. I am now confused about the adapters that you are referring to. I do not like adapters, so I have decided to install the proper inlet that matches the outlets that I plan to use.





> That is some crap talk. Every EV sold can plug into 120, and pretty much every diy ever made got its power from the grid. Every evse is powered by the grid and the spec allows for 120 and 240. It is an utterly rediculous position. An evse is nothing compared to the cost of an EV and you can make an adapter for ANY kind of plug you are likely to encounter. There is nothing that special about your approach, except the rube goldbergness of it.


I have yet to see a manufactured EV that connects to the existing infrastructure. Every one of them I have seen is only equipped with an inlet for the J plug connection. These EVs need a special adapter to connect to the existing infrastructure, but they are well equipped for the day when J plug stations are commonplace.



> You are stuck in "appliance grade" thinking, where an EVSE would be cost prohibitive, and never expected to supply up 20kw of power, to a device that might have people strapped inside of it, in a garage attached to a $400k house, with people sleeping in it


Interesting that you mentioned up to 20kw of power. I have my eyes on the up and coming J plug infrastructure, and it looks like there is a big problem developing in it. How many kw would you expect to get out of the average public J plug station? From what I can tell, you should not expect to get anymore than what you get out of your dryer plug at home. Why develop a 30 amp infrastructure with 20kw connections? 

As for people being strapped into a car that is charging, I usually sit in my living room and watch TV while my car is charging. As for the people sleeping inside of a $400,000 home, Do you have any doubts that there isn't a lawnmower plugged in in somebody's backyard right now while their sprinkler system is drenching it? And how does an EVSE protect anything that my charging system does not if you are not right there standing in a puddle and plugging in a wet cord?



> You can't really compare a lawnmower to an EV.


My 15 amp 110 breaker begs to differ. We are only talking about 1400 to 1500 watts here for an EV charging on 110. Your SAE engineers came up with a special plug so you can get the same power that a wal mart lawnmower uses into your EV.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

so a ton of lithium batteries in a 30k+ car with gobs of electronic equipment is identical to a cheap lawnmower with a switch and a motor. That is why you need 9 relays and 3x ac dc converters and misc outlets.

Because adapters bad.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> so a ton of lithium batteries in a 30k+ car with gobs of electronic equipment is identical to a cheap lawnmower with a switch and a motor. That is why you need 9 relays and 3x ac dc converters and misc outlets.
> 
> Because adapters bad.


Yep. 46 kwh lithium, two motors, two controllers, two air conditioners, two chargers, multiple dc dc converters, 3 isolated ac inlets, a DC to AC outlet, subwoofers, custom mid engine design, custom rear wheel drive suspension and differential, powerglide with manual valve body shifted with electronic actuator, and yes, it still looks the same to my 15 amp circuit breaker as a lawnmower when charging via the 110 inlet.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

adapter vs built in, no real difference except in level of protection.

you still have at least 3x too many relays and 3x as many ac adapters as needed. How can that be a good thing?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> adapter vs built in, no real difference except in level of protection.
> 
> you still have at least 3x too many relays and 3x as many ac adapters as needed. How can that be a good thing?


If somebody showed me a diagram of a way to cut the number of relays, and still retain all of the function that I need, I would most likely use it. I don't really know that having the number of relays and AC DC supplies is really such a bad thing. After all, I don't use them all at the same time. It's not like I run more than one AC DC, one contactor, and a couple relays at a time.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> you still have at least 3x too many relays and 3x as many ac adapters as needed. How can that be a good thing?


DCB, I always enjoy debating with you on the political thread, and of course here on this J plug debate. I don't think that we will ever see eye to eye on the use of inlets other than the J plug, but I hereby surrender to your relay logic as presented in post 16. I have studied it off and on today, and I finally grasp the logic, and I am super excited about what you have shown me. It does accomplish the same thing as my diagram, but the logic is superior to my diagram. Thanks for continuing to slap me around on this. That diagram and those contactors are what I will use, and I will use a single step up relay from the Orion drain to one DC coil contactor.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

glad it clicked 

I think part of the issue was you seem to have already procured parts, so it was harder to let go of that specific layout, ah well there is always ebay. FYI, you will need to derate your charging current or get bigger relays, I snooped around and here are some 80 ampers:

240v coil:
www.ebay.com/itm/JQX-62F-2Z-80A-220...193?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b24bfcc9

120v coil:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JQX-62F-2Z-...852?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ab596af4

12v coil:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JQX-62F-2Z-...796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b24bff24

I have no personal experience with these relays, but 30A j1772 is pretty common. Also note that you can install the j1772/120v relay near the inlets since it is self powered (as with the 6-50/240v relay).


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I do enough diy ev building to where it is nice to have some supplies such as relays and contactors on hand. I bought a case of 50 of the little 12V cube relays for $55 on ebay awhile back, since I would not need to run out to a parts store every time I needed a couple of relays. I got a big batch of the 80 amp contactors for the same reason, but they all have 12V coils. 

I use the 50 amp welder plug inlet more than anything else, so I may swap the J plug and regular 220 inputs on that diagram so that I rarely need a coil to be active, and the most used connection would just go straight through.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I only put the j1772 on the unpowered coil path because it can be either 120 or 240, technically. Just so you are aware.

The other thing to consider is that the contact resistance is listed as .1 ohm, times 2 I recon. I don't know how much current your charger can actually handle, but you are talking about 500 watts loss per relay @ 50 amps if I understand that correctly.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

dcb said:


> The other thing to consider is that the contact resistance is listed as .1 ohm, times 2 I recon. I don't know how much current your charger can actually handle, but you are talking about 500 watts loss per relay @ 50 amps if I understand that correctly.


This is of interest to me. I am mostly focused on the efficiency of energy between the batteries and the road, but I am aware that efficiency between the wall and the road is better. I have been learning quite a bit about contact resistance with my HVDC connections, but I don't understand how to translate it into watts. I just know that resistance is bad, and that the integrity of connection is critical for keeping the resistance to a minimum. I have contactors like these for my AC mains in my existing conversions, so I will take some current and voltage measurements before and after the contactors and see if I can extrapolate the losses at various current levels. My guess is that some of the EE types around here just need the .01 ohm that you listed to predict what my losses would be, but at my level of education, I still have to clamp my meter on and observe. With a potential loss as big as what you have mentioned, it is certainly worth my time to check it out.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

evmetro said:


> the .01 ohm that you listed.


It was listed as .1, but I suspect it isn't linear (indeed a quick search indicates that it isnt) so there is a reasonable chance that the guys who make them designed them not to melt at 50A
http://in4.iue.tuwien.ac.at/pdfs/sisdep1993/pdfs/SchroederD_110.pdf

But always good to measure.

It looks like the max voltage drop you should see across a set of contacts is ~0.3 volts. Were it a simple resistor of 0.1 ohms, then the voltage drop would be amps * 0.1, or 5v at 50a. @ .3 volts and 50A it looks more like 15 watts (30 for both contacts).


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