# I want to build a trike!



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*This project has changed direction due to a change in personal circumstances.
The trike will be a 40mph, 10-15 mile range cargo vehicle for running to local jobs instead of a long fast commute.
It has also changed from a low sleek sports body to a forward control (cab over) layout with a cargo bed.

The new thread is here.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=344007&postcount=616 *



Having had no time at all to work on either the MR2 or the tractor recently I heard that Duxuk has got his reverse trike (Sparky's garage entry) running and legal.

I went over tonight to meet up with him and to have a chat and a play and boy am I hooked!

I had an all too brief drive in it, just up and down a road a couple of times and it is really good fun and with a definate EV grin (though it could have been a grimace against the wind due to not wearing a helmet at speed!).

The construction seems to be no more difficult then my tractor and the MSVA (Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval) inspection seems to be quite straight forward to meet.
I figure that I could build it in my basement, when the tractor is moved outside, and then get it legal and good for local urban driving on the same 48v set up from the tractor but using the 9" motor that I have. I could then move up to 72v or 96v on lead with the option to go straight to LiFeP04. It will cost less to buy lithium for such a light vehicle then it would for the MR2.

I could then sell the MR2 but continue with the 12"motor and MR2 gearbox to make a 4x4 tractor using the diff in the centre to run two Land Rover axles!


Anyway, I heard a couple of days ago that I will be teaching again in September so there will be another paypacket!
So now I can afford to get my bed room suite (16'x14' bedroom with ensuite dressing room, shower room and bathroom complete with chill out space and laundry) done in the house, design and make the furniture for the bedroom, get the tractor running and ready for body work and then start laying out steel for the trike chassis.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Lol, you're a true EV addict Woody!  I'm going the other way. I sold the D&D motor already, and killed the other street rod project. I am killing the e-bike project as well, and am thinking about selling the 6.7" GE motor. I am considering a small truck for a daily driver, and better tow vehicle for the Inhaler. Trying to get my eggs back in as few vehicles as possible...

So when does this master plan get moving? Why not put the 12" motor in the trike? That would be a great place to do follow up on the art deco theme. I say stick a for sale sign on/list an auction for that MR2, get the tractor finished, and start building the second real Woody EV.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, 12" motor in a trike!

The motor weighs 114kg, Duxuk's trike weighs 350kg!
To do something similar with the 12" motor wouldn't leave me much to make the chassis with!
The 9" motor only weighs 43kg so that would be a saving of 71kg, that's a whole passenger!

I really do think that I would need to go as light as possible just because I only need to move myself and a small back pack to college and the MR2 would just cost too much to get the 70 mile range.
By my calculation I would expect to need 45x200ah LiFeP04 for the MR2 but only 30x100ah LiFeP04 for the trike. That is a significant saving in the pack cost.

If I was to use the 12" I would be really tempted to put it at the front with a shaft to the rear wheel so that the Art Deco comm end cover was out on display. But wouldn't that look great as the front end of a small tractor?









I still have that Yamaha shaft drive rear wheel to play with too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I did a bit more weighing of parts last night, just for future records and because I was bored watching tractor paint dry.


The shaft drive motor bike wheel I have weighs 28.4kg
The Lada Niva transfer box weighs 27.4kg

In comparison a rear wheel from the tractor weighs 25kg

So if I were to build a trike, as Jim suggested to me, with the 12" motor, driving the motorbike wheel through the transfer box to get two speeds I would be looking at 170kg just in those parts alone!

Now can I build the rest in just 230kg?


Using the 9" motor would bring that down to 99kg, a bit more reasonable I think.

But I think I would be really keen to build under 230kg just to have the option!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Why do you need a gear box in a 500lb trike? You're less than half my weight, maybe 20% of White Zombie's... That's a lot of weight removed right there. Of course, you realize I am biased - in favor of seeing an Art Deco Woodsmith reverse trike!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Why do you need a gear box in a 500lb trike? You're less than half my weight,


Personally I am probably nearly twice your weight!
Oh, you mean the trike.

You know me and Jim, always searcing for good pulling ratios!

Seriously though it was just a thought that the two speeds of the tbox, 1.2:1 and 2.135:1, would give nice urban and motorway speeds. At 3500rpm I would get 42 and 75mph respectively. 
I was also thinking of being able to tow a small trailer, with my tools, to the theatre to save driving the car.

Realistically I wouldn't need gears even if I was using the 7" motor from the tractor. I should have weighed that while it was apart as I could have designed around the 7" and moved one of the other two motors to the tractor.

I have been doing some more weighing (this is going to lead me to therapy!) and in a seated position my own weight distribution is 12.8kg at my feet and 72kg at the seat with the remainder of my 86kg in the back rest. Given that I am going to be a significant proportion of the all up weight I figured that this would be useful.

I also want to get my own weight back down to 75kg where it was a couple of years ago. That is going to be harder work then building the trike.

You know, I was more surprised that the motorbike wheel weighed more then the big wheels I have for the tractor. I guess the aluminium rims I found in the scrap steel rims skip at the scrap yard was my benefit.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith

I had to make the direct drive/gearbox decision for my machine - if you end up with a light weight machine you may find the logic useful

Estimate (guess) motor torque
Multiply through transfer ratio and tire diameter to get force at tire contact patch

Compare to vehicle weight on that tire

If the force is above 80% of the weight you will be able to spin the tire 
(super stick drag tires will increase the 80%)

I worked out that I should be able to spin the tires in direct drive - so I did not need to go for a lower gear

Top speed - calculate the motor rpm at you required speed - will it blow up?

I calculated my sort-of-seven would spin tires and not blow up at 80 mph - so no need for a gearbox!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Duncan, that is useful to know.

I guess it will depend on what reduction I have to work with. I must check the ratio on that Virago wheel.
It would be nice to be able to just spin the wheel as I will know I have the max torque available. It is also good for showing others that it 'has some grunt'.

I am still dithering over finding the rest of the Virago parts, not knowing which bike the wheel was from, or getting a complete rear swing arm set up in chain or shaft drive from any other bike.
The drive to the wheel will also dictate a lot, chain or shaft. I prefer shaft but will need the whole set up and a means of off setting the drive line or having an angle drive from the motor. Chain is easier to work with, even if I needed a jack shaft.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Chain is easier to work with, even if I needed a jack shaft.


Chains are messy, but the chain-drive setup would probably be a lot lighter. You can always switch to a belt later, or possibly even find a belt drive setup - though experimeting with different ratios would probably be much more limited and/or expensive.

One thing I always hated about shaft-drive motorcycles is they have a jacking effect. When you get in the throttle, the torque reaction lifts the whole bike. They're quiet and maintainence "free", but I find that to be really annoying.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I hadn't thought about the shaft jacking the frame up. I should look at a complete rear end set up anyway as the Virago drive train will include the V twin engine in the same casting.

Here are some photos in the newly vacated workshop to tease Jim with!

12" motor, propshaft tunnel under the seat, transfer box behind to off set the dive to the Virago wheel.
Guess who found that the MSVA for trikes allow up to 1000kg!

















And with propshaft.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

This is going to be fun! 

I don't know diddly about reverse trike layout and geometry, so I'll need to ask some possibly dumb questions here. First one:

Won't having the motor that far out in front of the axle center line create funny handling dynamics? I understand that weight is needed on the front wheels, but thought it was always better to keep mass inside the axles.

That being said, the component layout you have there offers the opportunity for really sexy bodywork. It's just begging for a few bumps and curves in the right places! A bomber seat would be awesome. You should make up a mock one with some scrap materials or poster board.

That motor is made for this Woody! I hope the 1000kg limit has created a home for it here.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The general idea is to try and get 1/3 weight on each wheel so 2/3 1/3 weight distribution.
All that weight up front would need to be balanced by batteries down the sides putting load to the rear end.

Realistically, as much as I would like to go this route I do want to keep it light so I doubt I will use the 12". Even the 9" is a bit big and weighty by conventional light trike practice.

What I should do is get a couple of Agni motors and fit them at the front pivot of the swing arm.
What I would probably do is fit the 9" sideways to drive a chain, with or without jackshaft, to the rear wheel. I am watching a few chain drive rear assemblies to see if they go for much though I could make my own with a chain drive wheel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh well, a guy can dream anyway. Hope you don't mind, but I couldn't resist the temptation to share what I see when I look at your pics!  Unfortunately the quality of my chicken scratching is worse than usual. As much as I love my graphics pad it's been really bothering my hand, wrist, and arm to use it and I don't want to end up with carpal tunnel.  I keep experimenting with revised positioning but it throws off my hand-to-eye-to-screen coordination. I feel like I'm drunk trying to draw.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like that! Thanks!


I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like










I will look at plywood forms and cycle wings at the front end as another option.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like that! Thanks!...


Yup. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like


Exactly! That's actually very close to what I saw - okay, maybe a bit less dramatic.  The basic lines and curves, with the motor poking through like that though.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Woody, 

I always liked the look of those Morgan 3 wheelers with that big honking JAP V twin on the front. Very unique.

Here you have a chance to build a three wheeler Woodsmith with a big honking electric motor on the front. WOW what a statement, forget sanity and practicallity, anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...forget sanity and practicallity, anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
> 
> Jim


Words I have lived by for decades. No wonder the three of us have so much fun around here!  Not sure we should be allowed to hang around each other though. We might be bad influences on the "normal" folks who are just trying to get from point A-to-B.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Words I have lived by for decades. No wonder the three of us have so much fun around here!  Not sure we should be allowed to hang around each other though. We might be bad influences on the "normal" folks who are just trying to get from point A-to-B.


You mean folks who take a perfectly good family car and shove an electric motor in it and a load of lead or lithium are "Normal"?
Well I never!



I need to check on the build and registration regs as well as the battery cost of running over 400kg but it is ever so tempting to go a little mad with that 12" and Tbox.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> You mean folks who take a perfectly good family car and shove an electric motor in it and a load of lead or lithium are "Normal"?
> Well I never!...


They're on the other side of the river from my perspective. 





Woodsmith said:


> ...but it is ever so tempting to go a little mad with that 12" and Tbox.


If there's anything I can to do convince - er, I mean help - you, just let me know!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Lol Todd!

I have been thinking of the dash board.









This sort of thing would be good with the retro volt and amp meters.
I am considering the possibility of making a wooden version of the engine turned dash panel using small oyster veneers.

I have been measuring the various component possibilities (read 12" motor and transfer box!) to see how things would actually sit. I'd be nervous of too much dead weight and torque with a very light chassis. I might even look at a wood monocoque again.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep - I finally got in here to lurk - nice lines on the trike! 

But I do like the "retro" dash and the use of "ye olde meters" ....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You can tell I like older vehicles.
I will need to see if I have any MSVA problems with hard edges and toggle switches sticking out.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hmmmm, that transfer box lines up well with the wheel.

The output aligned with the wheel final drive puts the input on the centre line, just right for the motor.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmmm, that transfer box lines up well with the wheel.
> 
> The output aligned with the wheel final drive puts the input on the centre line, just right for the motor.


Looking good. 

It's nice when things fall into place.

I don't know if reason will finally catch up with you, but that 12 inch sticking through the front of the grill with wing fenders on each side sure would look awsome. Heck maybe even the 9 inch wouldn't look too bad.

We can but dream.

Take a real good look at the quad front end I'm using on the Big 13 (i'll send you a hi rez close up if you want). You could widen it very easily. It might not work out for a front motor set up (look at one of the bigger ones if you can find one), but for a rear motor it might just be the ticket.

For a rear motor you could offset the motor to the non drive side and use a chain drive to a drive shaft with a u joint and get a usable ratio.

God I love brainstorming, even at long distance. Most of what I come up with is crap, but I do get a few winners.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was having a close look at that quad front end of yours. It would be difficult with a motor in the centre of it but it may save making wishbones and links.

I was playing with options to keep a rear motor transverse and central with a jack shaft to a chain drive wheel.
I have also thought about the 12" motor at the back with a chain drive to the wheel shaft. The 12" transverse with a jack shaft would be good as it would show off the art deco ends of the motor on both sides.

For weight distribution, and that transfer box, I could place the transfer box under ther seat with the range selector in a 'normal' position either between the knees or cranked off to one side.
I would need to remember not to unlock the diff when the motor is running.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I did a quick scaled sketch to see how things lay and what the weight distrubution would be.

A number of assumptions had to be made about the front wheel size at 400mm (16") and I left out the other unknown components weight as those can be factored in to retain balance and overall weight later on.

I used a wheel base of 2m (6'7"), a maximum length of 2.9m (9'6"), max width of 1.2m (47") and a height of 1.1m (43"). These constraints are mainly to do with workshop space and trailer space but it may be prudent to increase the length a bit more to get a lower height and better lines.

With a real sized person in and the seat and motor not on the floor the trike profile is a lot higher then the lovely sleek design that Todd came up with.









However, it will surfice for now.
Using the known weights and positions of the rear wheel, 12" motor, myself and 30 100ah cells and a guestimate of about 25kg for front wheels I get a 70/30 F/R weight split. That isn't too far off with the battery pack in two lots of 15 on each side of the cockpit and can change a reasonable amount withthe addition of the rest of the structural and essentail components.

I have removed the transfer box for now as the input is too high and would require me to have a hole in my lower abdomen to let the prop shaft through. It would make getting out a little fiddly if I have to remove the prop first!
As it is I have the ground clearence at 4" which is a little low but it is meant to be a tiny vehicle.

I figured a good way to watch the weight is to buy three cheap bathroom scales and put one under each wheel as the build develops. Knowing my own weight distribution and that of the pack will allow me to determine the correct wheel weights as I go.



I am not as impressed with the front view as it looks too small and low with the little wheels and tall seating so that may have to change. I may not be vain about myself but my creations matter.









It is starting to look a bit like a Messerschmitt.









Cute but I want more of a...








look about it with a little...








and maybe some...








with a little...









I also found this which is quite cute.








Weigth distribution would work if that was a reverse trike though. But nice lines.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I played around a bit with the ground clearance and seating position.
I have raised the ground clearance to 6", mainly because I have a ready made platform that height for the motor to sit on, and I moved the seating position forward and reclined it a bit more.








_(Holy cow, Batman! The invisibilty cloak works on the Batmobile!)


_
That gave space to put the transfer box back.

The earlier issue of the transfer box was that the input was high up and the output low down. To solve that I tipped the box on its side so the mounts are now top and bottom. It means that the input is now at the lowest point and the output is back at wheel centre height.
The box is resting with a mount on the ground but that can be cut off and new mountings made up to suit. 

























As luck would have it the input is still on the centre line and running nicely under the seat position.
It also puts the range selector lever at the right hand side so I can put a short linkage to it (I'm getting good at them) to make it easy to reach.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...With a real sized person in... Todd...


I think I might take offense to that statement! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...then the lovely sleek design that Todd came up with...


Gee, thanks - offense nullified.  Yeah, it's tricky sometimes to get the proprotions right when real-world considerations are factored. It looked much longer in the first mock-up pics. One of the tricks in the sketch overlay I did was the front fenders are much higher than they need to be for adequate wheel travel. This was done to balance proportions with the much larger rear wheel. It still allowed a nice wedge shape though because of the size difference, and created large pontoon-style front fenders. Similarly, the motor would have been encapsulated in an oversized hump.

One of the challenges with electric, I discovered in designing the Inhaler, is the motor is really small by vehicle standards - even with small vehicles like we're working on. When you attempt to feature it in the overall design it makes it look tiny, or the rest of the vehicle shrunk-wrapped around it. Like it just ate a lemon!  It takes some experimenting to find a nice compromise. I decided to magnify my motor's visual impact with the forced-air system to balance it with the body. At first I was trying to cut the body down to match it, but it killed the proportions of the T body - unless I were to build a 1/4-scale toy! 





Woodsmith said:


> I played around a bit with the ground clearance and seating position.
> I have raised the ground clearance to 6", mainly because I have a ready made platform that height for the motor to sit on, and I moved the seating position forward and reclined it a bit more.
> 
> 
> ...


I like this setup. It does, however, take a serious bite out of low and sleek. If my wrist and arm are okay I may be inclined to do some chicken scratching over that pic...


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Woody,

It's nice that it's all lining up, you deserve a few breaks. 

But before you commit to this layout I would disassemble the transfer case and see just how you are going to lubricate some parts without drowning others and check the condition of the internal parts. When I built my first tractor I had to turn the differential upside down (another story). If I had only just turned it, it would have starved the pinion bearing. I ended up having to make a catch tray that carried splash to the bearing without overfilling the diff. and flooding the axle bearing and seals causing leaks.

I know I'm always the negitive one but better safe then sorry.

You and Todd seem to have a hand in each others pocket (across the pond is a long reach). The Idesas just jeep melding together.

Wonderful

I like what I'm seeing. Keep it up.

Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Take two.








I raised everything to match your component and seating layout, but tried to maintain some sexiness. With my previous post in mind, to feature the motor but not make the nose look like a duck's bill, I kept it level and rolled it down to the motor in front. As with the Inhaler, I used the height to make the design a little richer. I also swept the fenders in to the nose with a more convex curve, and some extra detailing (the line/ridge near the bottom). Pulling the nose down to the motor too fast makes it look like a certain sex toy!  Pulling the lines farther forward, and then diving them in towards the motor, gives a lot of surface to build character with. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think I might take offense to that statement!


 No offence meant or implied, my friend, but I tried to sit myself 'into' your sketch and it was just a bit on the small size to be practical no matter how much I liked it.



toddshotrods said:


> Gee, thanks - offense nullified.  Yeah, it's tricky sometimes to get the proprotions right when real-world considerations are factored. It looked much longer in the first mock-up pics. One of the tricks in the sketch overlay I did was the front fenders are much higher than they need to be for adequate wheel travel. This was done to balance proportions with the much larger rear wheel. It still allowed a nice wedge shape though because of the size difference, and created large pontoon-style front fenders. Similarly, the motor would have been encapsulated in an oversized hump.


It can be difficult when foreshortening in a photo without an important element being in there.



toddshotrods said:


> One of the challenges with electric, I discovered in designing the Inhaler, is the motor is really small by vehicle standards - even with small vehicles like we're working on. When you attempt to feature it in the overall design it makes it look tiny, or the rest of the vehicle shrunk-wrapped around it. Like it just ate a lemon!  It takes some experimenting to find a nice compromise. I decided to magnify my motor's visual impact with the forced-air system to balance it with the body. At first I was trying to cut the body down to match it, but it killed the proportions of the T body - unless I were to build a 1/4-scale toy!


I am finding that myself as I work around the layout. As big as the motor is it is tiny in height compared to even a Vtwin ICE.



toddshotrods said:


> I like this setup. It does, however, take a serious bite out of low and sleek. If my wrist and arm are okay I may be inclined to do some chicken scratching over that pic...


Sketch away, that is what I am trying to do in 2D as I work out the weights and components.



Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> It's nice that it's all lining up, you deserve a few breaks.
> 
> ...


It's not negative it is watching my back and it is a good thing.
Looking at the fill level plug on the side of the box it only has about an inch of oil in the bottom at the diff end of the case. On its side the inch of oil will be at the input end with some coverage on the intermediate gears.

Here is a drawing of the box.








It may matter and I will have to have a look to find out. I am hoping that as the gears are lubricated by splash anyway it shouldn't hurt it too much especially as the diff will not be functioning either.



Jimdear2 said:


> You and Todd seem to have a hand in each others pocket (across the pond is a long reach). The Idesas just jeep melding together.
> 
> Wonderful
> 
> ...


I see you both as friends and I can only wish that it were easy to pop over and have these conversations face to face over a sketch pad and a welder in a workshop.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like that, Todd,  I am going to have my work cut out to try and realise it.

I am begining to really get into this project. I might even be able to keep the weight low enough to make it work, never with lead for any real range but with lithium it is realisable and realistic.

I have been debating the practicalities of making a wood monocoque from 2mm birch ply glue laminations or staying conventional with a steel space frame or ladder chassis.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I am finding that myself as I work around the layout. As big as the motor is it is tiny in height compared to even a Vtwin ICE...


Yup





Woodsmith said:


> ...Sketch away, that is what I am trying to do in 2D as I work out the weights and components...


{{Evil, mad scientist, grin}} I posted just before you - see page three.









Jimdear2 said:


> ...You and Todd seem to have a hand in each others pocket (across the pond is a long reach). The Idesas just jeep melding together.
> 
> Wonderful
> 
> ...





Woodsmith said:


> ...I see you both as friends and I can only wish that it were easy to pop over and have these conversations face to face over a sketch pad and a welder in a workshop.


Yeah Jim, you're a critical cog in this creative machine!  I shudder to think where Woody and I might end up without you there to balance things! Reality isn't negativity. You saved me from wasting time on pipe dreams with the Inhaler too.

Even though we can't all be in the same geographical location, but it is super cool that the internet allows us to do this from so far apart.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I like that, Todd,  I am going to have my work cut out to try and realise it.
> 
> I am begining to really get into this project. I might even be able to keep the weight low enough to make it work, never with lead for any real range but with lithium it is realisable and realistic.
> 
> I have been debating the practicalities of making a wood monocoque from 2mm birch ply glue laminations or staying conventional with a steel space frame or ladder chassis.


I think a steel chassis with Woodsmith skin. It would capture the essence of Woody, with awesome steel structural fabrication, covered by organic, artistic, wood craftsmanship.

Piece a cake for the Woodster!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Even my Dad, before his play on the tractor, has taken a real shine to your first sketch. He is really keen to see me achieve this trike, especially after we visited a car show at the science museum and there was one EV, an old Enfield, that looked slow and boring.
Here's what one looks like.









Dad (he is still EV grinning) reckoned I should have taken the tractor along to the show but I didn't know about it until yesterday.



toddshotrods said:


> Even though we can't all be in the same geographical location, but it is super cool that the internet allows us to do this from so far apart.


Yeah, but I'm sitting up at 2.30am chatting with you guys and I am going to be awake again at 7.30am.

I'm going to catch some zzzzzz and think about transfer box lubrication.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think a steel chassis with Woodsmith skin. It would capture the essence of Woody, with awesome steel structural fabrication, covered by organic, artistic, wood craftsmanship.
> 
> Piece a cake for the Woodster!


This is what I keep 'seeing' as I look at how this is developing.
The 'cow car' from Mad Max 3. 









How about doped linen or canvas stretched over it like on the old war planes?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Yeah Jim, you're a critical cog in this creative machine!  I shudder to think where Woody and I might end up without you there to balance things! Reality isn't negativity. You saved me from wasting time on pipe dreams with the Inhaler too.


 
Oh Blush.

Hey I always wanted to be a cog

Thanks guys. You know its a GOOD thing to mix ideas. You both have made me rethink some things. It's a good thing so let's keep it up.

Oh and by the way Todd, dreaming about PIPES. Maybe you should get some help?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...You know its a GOOD thing to mix ideas. You both have made me rethink some things. It's a good thing so let's keep it up...


Agreed. It's a very rewarding, triple-win deal. 





Jimdear2 said:


> ...
> Oh and by the way Todd, dreaming about PIPES. Maybe you should get some help?


ROFL!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I added a bit of colour and shading. It needs to be a different colour but it shows up best like this.









Needs bigger front wheels I think.

I have been clearing out the unused files on my old desk top and de bugging it so that I can use the autocad package on it. It is giving me a chance to block out the drawings quickly and accurately while my drawing board is stored away and difficult to access.

Haven't got my head around the 3D of google sketch up yet, stuff I draw there doesn't look right and I am spending more time moving, adjusting, measuring and messing rather then drawing.

I am working on reclining the seat to near 45deg like on my KMX trike. It brings my head height down to around 42" and my eyeline to around 6' from the front of the trike. That is about the same as on the MR2.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Needs bigger front wheels I think.


Spoke wheels.... Looks great Batman!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Spoke wheels.... Looks great Batman!


I would love spoked wheels.
It is one reason wht I have been looking at MGB front suspension but the weight is going to be a issue. Spoke wheels are steel and will be 2-3 times the weight of a wheel from, say, an Italjet Dragster scooter.

I have worked on MGB suspension quite a bit but can't for the life of me remember the geometry and measurements. All I can remember is that we used lower wishbones lengthened 3/4" to get negative camber for improved handling.

If I can find light weight spoke wheels that would work I will probably go for it, especially as I have a spoked rear wheel at the moment.

It can all change though depending on what bits I can find to fit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think I have found just the rear wheel I need.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-K75-100-R...em&pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item255c84586b
A complete set up from the BMW gearbox backwards. All I would need to do is to connect a motor to it and a suspension.

I think I will check my budget.

ETA:
Well, I bought it.

The gear ratios are a little low though. With the highest ratio final drive, 2.81:1, I can just get 69mph at 4000rpm. Best make sure that motor and propshafts are well balanced.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Well, I bought it...


Nice find. Everything in one neat package, and lot of alloy to keep the weight down.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's what I was thinking, Todd, simplifies everything.
I just need to find a way to make sure that I have enough rpm to get up to 70+mph, easy with a nice modern 9" series motor or an Agni but I'm not sure if my 12" motor will do it safely.
I could fit something to gear it up but it is more complication, weight and expense. Something like the old VW axle drop box from the camper van would do, compact and run backwards.

I am going to pick up the K100 unit today and hopefully get the brake caliper and maybe the clutch disc from it at the same time.

I was thinking last night, I could run a motor direct into the transmission and move the driving seat forward so my feet are ahead of the front axle. That would leave a space behind the seat and over the motor for luggage.
I also missed out on an auction for two 8" motors and fork lift controller They looked like wheel motors both with a disc brake on the tail shafts but I didn't figure on having a need for them. I could have run them siamiesed under the seat straight into the transmission. 
Oh well.​


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith

I don't understand your rpm/speed calculation,

Wheel diameter (with tire) 23 inches- or there-about BMW 17 inch wheel + 6 inch tire
= approx 2m/ revolution
4000 rpm = 66 rps
2.8:1 drive = 66 x 2 divided by 2.81 = 47 m/sec
47 m/sec = 170 km/hr = 106 mph?
How do you get 69 mph


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Woodsmith
> 
> I don't understand your rpm/speed calculation,
> 
> ...


Gear box ratios.

The gears work out at:
1st---4.5:1
2nd---2.96:1
3rd---2.3:1
4th---1.88:1
5th---1.61:1

Then the bikes had final drive ratios of 2.81:1, 2.91: or 3.0:1

Not sure which I have yet.

This is it.


















I also thought of putting the motor behind the seat, moving me to the front and all in the same wheel base and length, to direct couple it to the gear box. It would also give me luggage space over it.








(dodgy panoramic photo)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I will need to get a new tyre, this one has splits around the side walls. Also it doesn't look as nice as the Virago one. A big fat tyre is what is needed so I will need to see what the options are.
Pity the final drives are on different side or I would have had a look at swapping the two and having the Virago wheel.

Something else I could do is to make an adaptor plate to bolt on the hub and then have a stud pattern to match a wide wheel with a bigger tyre. That might just give me the extra diameter I would need to bring the 4000rpm speed up past 70mph.
There is a limit to how wide I could go though as the wheel is offset from the input shaft and that will only increase with width. To keep the wheel centred I will need to mount the motor off centre and that is a lot of 'off centre' weight with the 12".

Or I could just use a smaller motor with a higher rpm I suppose.

Or off set with a step up gear train, chain or pulleys.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ratios not good.

Just had a quick count and I have the 3:1 final drive and also the tyre diameter is only 24.5".
That means that at 4000rpm I only have 60mph in the 1.61:1 top gear.

However!

However, a few months ago I was at the scrap metal yard and I picked up a couple of clutch discs that looked like they might fit my 2CV transmission. The didn't but I kept them anyway. One of them fits the K100 input shaft perfectly!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I got two 48v motors from a nissan forktruck that say on the plate that they can go to 10,000rpm. Might be worth considering a twin motor setup? Series - parallel switching. thats what i'm doing on the bike.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I got two 48v motors from a nissan forktruck that say on the plate that they can go to 10,000rpm. Might be worth considering a twin motor setup? Series - parallel switching. thats what i'm doing on the bike.


Yes, that would have been a great option.
Those two on Ebay that I was watching would have been ideal, matched pair, 8" diameter. I watched but didn't bid as I didn't know what I would do with them as I still have the 9" motor as an option.
I should have bid, it would have been worth it now as they would have fitted nicely under the seat, in line.
Oh well.

I will look at the 9" as the potentially faster option while still looking for other alternatives.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

woody,

I can't beleive you are missing something so obvious that answers all of your problems.

Place the motor above the transmission then Belt (quite) or Chain (Noisy) down to the trans input shaft.

Need different ratios "No Problem" 
Need weight on the rear wheel for traction (needed for all that torque) "No Problem" 
Want to sit further back (for comfort) "No Problem" 

This also leaves the front open for batteries (weight balance), controller and a luggage compartment.

Finally with the motor on top it should be easy to use plexiglass for a motor cover (makes Todd happy to design a shape that shows off the motor.

How about that a Mid Motor trike. WoW.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Again, Jim, we think along similar lines.

Though I wouldn't want the 12" above the transmission due to the weight being so high I did place it in front for a mid mount. Much further back would cause over loading problems anyway.

To overcome the under gearing I have been looking up various potentially cheap options that I can use.
One was to get a timing chain and sproket set for a large car engine, about £20 or so. I get a duplex chain and a 2:1 sprocket set run backwards to give a 0.5:1 ratio.
I can make up an aluminium gear case as a three layer sandwich. Two outer covers and one centre section with a shaped hole in it for the sprockets and chain. It can all be cut from a slab of aluminium and stacked up.
Though a 0.5 ratio is a bit high, I can then use the lower gears and the motor will have the torque to pull it. The ideal ratio is a 0.7:1. Tooth belt drive would be as easy but may cost a little more. 

I also found a stamp on the side of the final drive, 32/11, so I have a 2.91:1. It is a little better but not by much.


Here are some more photos.
The bit of old, unknown origin, clutch disc I found at the scrap yard.









A perfect fit onto the input shaft.









Another stroke of luck, the drum brake lever from the Virago wheel is an exact fit onto the K100 gear selector. It even make it easy for me to make a remote linkage to my left hand side for a sequential gear shift.









Only thing is, I like the look of the Virago wheel much better then the K100 wheel. The K100 wheel looks like a moped wheel in comparison!









I am going to find a way to have a big fat tyre on the back somehow.
I am thinking of making a wheel stud adaptor to take a 15" car type wheel that would fit that tyre. Maybe even a splined hub to take a 15" MGC wire wheel! Now that would be cool with MG Midget 13" wires on the front.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Just found out from the sell that the K100 transmission is from a 1989 registered bike but is a pre Sept 88 model without ABS.

That will be useful, thanks Martin.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I found another coincidental fit that may or may not be of any use to this project.

I dug out the short propshaft that linked the Lada Niva main gear box to the transfer box. It is a three arm donut on the gearbox end with a short shaft to a CV joint that fits the transfer box flange.









The drive member is a three armed unit with an internal spline.

It fits the tailshaft of my 9" motor.









So, I could drive the transfer box with the tail end of the 9" motor. Just can't see why I would want to right this moment or if the tailshaft would be useful for this. The drive end shaft is the same but about 1mm bigger so I can't see much difference in strength.

Incidentally the 9" motor would sit very comfortably on top of the K100 gearbox with a belt or chain drive to the input.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's the 9" sitting on the K100 with a couple of timing belt cam pulleys on for effect.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Looks like you might be on to something there.

That 9 inch is probably all the motor you will need for a go to work Put-Put trike. With enough voltage you should get the RPM you need to get to your target speed.

Save the 12 inch for something DRAMATIC. Something like the worlds fastest segway or a land speed skate board.

Nice thing about a power stack like that is all the torque reaction can be managed in a heavy rear structure. That leaves the front open for a light structure that is just strong enough to carry the batteries . . . and of course YOU.

Keep thinking, you'll find your perfect path eventually.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

If that transfer unit fits the spline on the 9" correctly, then you could use the 9" for Direct Drive (Provided the transfer case/diff is a reasonable ratio).

Just a thought.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is very true, Jim.

That set up would allow me to make a single steel or aluminium plate that has the mounting holes for both the transmission bell(?) housing and the DE of the motor. The pulleys can be made to line up easily enough and I can change them to find the right ratio if needed.

Any thoughts as to what width of toothed belt I should look for?

The whole unit can then be bolted to the back of a cockpit with batteries in the nosecone so I wouldn't need side pods.
I can even mount the controller above the motor and have an air scoop behind my head like an F1 car for cooling both the controller and the motor. Using the 9" motor can save me nearly 100kg overall.

Haha, just realising that I was planning on 30 100ah cells, about 100kg. The 12" motor weighs 114kg. Not many EVs where the motor weighs more then the pack!

I still want that fat tyre though.
I can use the BMW wheel for the time being but, if I find the parts cheaply I can use an MGA 15"x 4" wire wheel on a splined hub adaped to the K100 drive flange.

I have just bought one of these from a Land Rover forum:
















A cable operated brake caliper.
That will sort out the requirement for a parking brake on the rear disc.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, so a quick calculation based on the 9" motor mounted above the K100 transmission with battery pack ahead of the front axle and seating as before. Assuming approx 50kg for the front axle itself (up from previous to allow for nicer wire wheels) and not accounting for any chassis or ancilleries.

I get a 66/34 weight distrubution front/rear.

That is just where I want it. So on that basis I can develop a chassis around the CoG with some adjustment for the location of the controller, charger and some pack cells to maintain the weight distrubution.

It does mean that I can get the whole of the body within a 500mm wide frame with just the front wheels projecting out 350-400mm each side and no side pods.
However, I can't start with LA batteries as the front location would have a huge effect on the CoG. Before, when the pack was located almost on top of the CoG, lead or lithium didn't affect the distrubution.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Save the 12 inch for something DRAMATIC. Something like the worlds fastest segway or a land speed skate board.
> 
> Keep thinking, you'll find your perfect path eventually.


I was thinking of maybe getting a big truck axle, cutting the tubes down to make it narrower and then mounting the 12" on top of the diff with a belt or chain drive down to the diff pinion...

Now I wonder where I got that notion from?


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## umurali2000 (May 3, 2010)

useful thread... thanks a lot


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith,

Putting the motor up on top of the gearbox will give a very high center of gravity(mass) - combined with a narrow front track will take you to tip up city

IMHO The way to go is to build a leaning three wheeler - lean into the corners like a motor bike

The front suspension geometry now becomes simple
Lots of travel and keep the wheel vertical with relation to the body - a long leading arm would do it

I believe the driver will need a steering wheel that also controls roll - maybe not motorbikes dont 

When I was laying out some ideas for a human powerred leaning trike I was going to use something to drop the front suspension onto its bump stops for parking and very slow speeds - kneeling so that I could mount it! 

The front suspension would effectively have zero roll stiffness in operation


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The motor isn't too high, relatively speaking and all the rest of the weight will be low down. The design layout isn't quite finalised so still open to options.

I have a design for a zero roll suspension. Already modelled in Lego Technic. I can have nice soft suspension in the vertical plain but no roll at all. It has a potential for a Patent so I am keeping quiet about it for now.

I have spent most of today looking at the motor position.
Setting up a drive isn't going to be easy as there is nothing simple on the transmission to mount to. The 'bell housing' is irregular and tight in to the front housing of the gear case. The gear case protrudes a long way ahead of the bell housing mating face too so no flat surface.
The motor is the same, it has a 'nose' sticking out, beyond the mounting bolts, that holds the bearing.

If I use a belt then there will be a very high radial load. The motor can take it but I don't think the transmission input can. Also the mounting between the two will also have to be very rigid, light weight and allow for the motor to swing for tensioning. It will be heavy and/or complex.
Chain or gears will need a case of some sort with its own complexities and weight penalty.

If I couple with a shaft then I am back with the original set up with the 12" motor.
I could close couple the motor but then I will have to sit higher or have a crouched biker style position astride a seat. Then the CoG will be high and leaning will be essential. As it is I am trying to keep the CoG lower then 18" and nearer to 12" above the ground with a 6" ground clearance. (Why have I set that so high? My old MG only had 2" clearence.)
I could sit up front over the front axle but I think I would feel a bit vulnerable.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Just reading that back, Duncan.
I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your concerns or your suggestions.

I think there are more areas of concern and those are frustrating me a little while I work through them. Also, having been a biker for a while I have come to the conclusion I don't much like sitting astride or leaning. I much prefer sitting in and driving flat so I am trying to keep to that set up, almost by any means.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is a better image of the motor placement and the difficulties with the shapes.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith

The issue with high C of G and low width cannot be answerred by suspension - its simple force dynamics
The cornering force x height of C of G must be balanced by the couple from the wheels (in this case the front wheels!)

If your C of G height is 18 inches (450mm) 
Couple = Mass x cornering accel x 450 = 450 x Mass (1g cornering)

Resisted by Weight transfer x width 

If you are 500 + 400 + 400 = 1300mm wide

Weight transfer = 450 x mass / 1300 = 0.34 x mass

And you have only got 66% of weight on your front wheels - 33%/wheel

I agree with you not wanting to "sit" astride but sitting in a nice seat and leaning into corners is fun!

I used to do this with my recumbent bicycle - I felt like I should have been making spitfire noises and fitting machine guns on the fairing


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the numbers, Duncan, puts some perspective on it.
I will need to design the CoG much lower, or have so little tyre grip that it slides everywhere.
Currently the top of my head lands around the 43" mark. It would be good to emulate the Ford GT40 and get another 3" lower.

Given my body mass, 85kg, lies right between the mass of the pack, 100kg, and the mass of the motor/transmission, 43kg/20kg I should sit low and keep everything low too. I am aiming to lean my body within the seat but that will be minimal with a harness on but I will see how much 'slack' I can manage. Little red 'fire' buttons on the steering wheel would be fun!

I will look at bringing the ground clearance down to about 3" and then look at clearances and component placement again.

I am also trying to avoid anything that looks awkward or 'clunky' in set up. I want the trike to be built with grace so little things like symmetry matter to me, even where it won't be seen. That doesn't help.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Looking at the latest photo of the motor and transmission I can see your concern about radual loads. Here is my take on it. Two suggestions

Take the clutch hub you have and turn down the long nose part to take a bearing. Support said bearing in your usual inovative way. On the back side of the hub weld in and true up a shaft, mount bearing to shaft and sprocket to the flange. This will absorbe the radial loads into the shaft and bearings. 

Don't forget you can build a rigid chain box that can be mounted to the motor and carry the clutch hub and bearings so there would be no radial loads.

Second variation is to just weld a shaft to the clutch hub mount two pillow block bearings on the shaft, again mount sprocket to flange of clutch hub. Same the two bearings absorbe the radial loadings.

The whole assembly for both variations will have to carry all three pieces in a rigid structure to maintain alignments. The same structure will keep torque stresses under control.

Since this is going to be a light vehicle you will never be able to build that much reaction, you just won't have enough traction. I know that I am using the wrong words here.

I can sketch it out if your interested. But you know how bad my sketches are.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've thought about the nice rigid chain casing with pillow block bearings and also an open rigid structure with a belt. It all gets overly complex and ungainly as well as adding a lot of weight.
(Where's Todd when there is an easy and graceful billet aluminium chain case option?)

It will need to be done eventually but a part of me is still looking at the front motor layout with a light propshaft to a drop box behind the seat taking drive back up to the gearbox shaft.

Same fiddly bit of making but it won't need to carry the motor as well.

I am going to build a floor level platform to set all the parts at 'floorpan' height to get the ground clearance I want and then mock up a seat that I can move about and recline.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...(Where's Todd when there is an easy and graceful billet aluminium chain case option?)...







Woodsmith said:


> ...a part of me is still looking at the front motor layout with a light propshaft to a drop box behind the seat taking drive back up to the gearbox shaft...


Honestly, as much as I like doing crazy engineering stuff, that seems to be the best solution. It places a big chunk of your fixed weight up front and as low as possible, and makes your driveline a much more reasonable process.

I have always been in love with mid-engined exotic sports cars and wanted desperately to build one, but my goals for the Inhaler dictated a conventional front/rear layout. I would have had ten times the engineering work to do to accomplish the same thing with a mid-motor layout. The right foundation has made designing the vehicle much more reasonable and also more fun.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Todd, I know what you mean.
I want to keep it simple and clean and and sometimes what is prefered to meet a desired outcome isn't what is best, or easiest.

I laid out a platform to indicate the floor plan of the trike. It is a bit short but I can gauge the rest around what I am doing. Importantly it gives me a firm working area that I can more easily lay out components at the correct (or near correct) heights and positions.
Also I made up a seat that can be adjusted for rake and recline with the aid of some luggage straps.

Anyway, with a lot of dragging things back and forth this is what I have come up with.

















It is a front seat, mid motor lay out, and back to the 12" motor too.
The reason is that it makes some things much easier to do. It is easier to set up a small gearbox on the front of the 12" then it is on the front of the 9" and I can still show off the Art Deco motor.
Also now I have a seat I can see that there is room, and some, behind the seat to allow the 12" to be moved about a bit for alignment and still allow me good ground clearance and no propshaft.


































I will have to make up a helical gear box in that space to keep the shafts at around 90mm centres, that should be do-able. The gear box can mount on the four bolts on the bearing cap on the DE of the motor and just have a female spline sticking out to plug the transmission into. The chassis frame will have to be accurate and rigid at this point so that it stays aligned but I could just have a sliding section at the foot of the motor so that it can be slid backwards to engage the transmission and then bolted down.

To balance the weight the CoG of the pack needs to be about 100mm behind the front axle. I still have 300mm ahead of my feet to put some of the pack and the rest can go under the seat or in side pods just behind the front wheels. That will give me the 2/3 1/3 weight distribution.

It leaves me with a little light luggage space above the motor and hopefully I won't be carrying anything so heavy that it makes things unstable. Besides, I think it would take a lot to raise the CoG with that 12" there.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Woody,

I woudn't advise using too low a ground clearance. In a lightweight you need soft suspension with plenty of travel, in my experience. Your unsprung to sprung weight ratio is likely to be rather large as you can't make the wheels, uprights and suspension arms light enough to achieve any other result. The consequence will be poor ride quality, made worse by the neccesity for anti roll control. The last thing you need is stiff short travel springing. The best option to keep the front wheels down is to put as much weight as far forwards as possible.

The heaviest component may be you!! The next is likely to be the battery pack, though a lead acid "crumple zone" at the front only has so much appeal!

A front mounted motor does sound good but then you're increasing weight through the complex drive shaft. I think I might sit in front of the motor with the batteries along side the driver. Make the portion in front of the cockpit as short as possible to keep overall length down. At least then your seat could be something like a Kart seat, your backside still only 6 inches from the ground. With a reclined driving position you could still acheive 40" total height with a small frontal area.

Andrew.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

You posted a reply whilst I was typing and I can see you are already doing what I suggested!!!!!!!

Great minds realy do think alike

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi Andrew, yes the plan is good and, hopefully, getting better.

The set up is much improved this way and I can increase the ground clearance a few more inches this way and still keep things low.
Still a little nervous of my legs being the crumple zone though!

My main concern is speed bumps as much as suspension travel but, yes, stiff springs with limited travel on a light vehicle isn't good, may as well do without and use softer tyres then.

I am going to lift the motor a little higher later on and see how that works and then take some height mesurements to get a CoG calculation.

I am going to skip the lead option and go straight to lithium but I may use lead and the 48v controller from the tractor to get it running, inspected and tested if I haven't found a cheaper controller by then. I can probably still get 5-10 miles at 30mph out of it on the tractor set up so it would be fine for testing and going to theatre rehersals.

I have ammeters to test on your trike by the way. I shall have to come up and then see what current yours is pulling. I may even bring small shoes and an helmet this time.
Have you looked into the patentability of your suspension yet?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

All dreaming and kidding aside, have you really considered what the torque of that 12 inch is going to so to that Bimmer trans. And to any tire you can mount to that rim.

Conversly you arn't going to need a lot of amps to get such a light vehicle moving with the 12 inch either. But it sure will be feather foot driving.

Something I don't understand (you may have covered this earlier). Why do you have the motor offset and plan a gear drive? Is this just a way to increase the input rpm to the trans?

Shouldn't you be able to get 3000 rpm out of that 12 inch motor with a bit of brush advance and some volts? What kind of speed would 3000 rpm give you?

If you have to go to a step up gearset, I was thinking, doesn't that transfer box have a 2 to 1 or so gear set in it? Maybe the gearset and shafts could be reboxed.

Finally would the 9 inch you have be a better fit, I know it's not the newest but people use lift truck 9 inch motors to move some weighty vehicles to a good speed. At least so they report.

Bunch of random ramblin thoughts. 

Bad weather and air conditions here so I haven't got much done. Guess I'll just rag on you.

Be well,
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I appreciate the ramblings and the thoughts, Jim.

The 9" would be enough motor. I think even the 7" from the tractor will be enough!
The realistic options are probably going to be either the 12" or the 7".
The 9" had a long nose with the bearing in and a large diameter mounting area that means anything I make for it needs to be very large diameter with a very big hole in it for the bearing nose to poke through. It is just a bit on the clumsy side and I like easy.

The motor is on the centre line and I want to keep it centred as with either motor there is a lot of weight to balance if it isn't on the centre. The input to the transmission is off centre to match the BMW 4 pot that was lying on its side. Added to that I want a wider tyre on the back and that off sets the box even further to keep the tyre centred.

I will have to be a light foot with the 12", maybe even with the 9".
At 3000rpm I would only have 59mph. Though I would only be driving at 60 most of the time I am aware that on shorter journeys I would want to play a bit. Also going down hill the speeds here, keeping up with traffic, can get to an illegal 90mph in places as a regular day to day thing. Even some of the trucks are rolling at 70+mph and failure to keep up causes problems of its own.
I would want to be able to roll at that sort of speed without spinning the motor to death. At 80 the motor would be spinning at 5000rpm.

I think the motor would have run at about 3000-3500 without brush advance in the original milkfloat to get to 25mph. That is about the speed they run at and I haven't seen a standard electric milk float move at any more then 20mph.

So I want to gear up to save the motor from over speeding and to make use of its speed range.

My calculator estimates that at 60mph I would only need to draw 80A at 96V.

Anyway, a big part of this is that I am looking for a visual effect too. That is why I haven't converted a Matiz or a Corsa.
Wouldn't that motor DE look good under the back with a nice aluminium gear case going to the BMW trans?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woody a word of warning. Brush advance does not effect how fast the motor will spin its to help it commutate. I found this out the hard way thinking my 80v forklift motor would be fine at 96v with no advance. Yes it ran but was arcing like a welder and eventually distorted the com. Had to strip it and have the com turned and advanced about 8 degrees. Now runs at 120v no problems. I'm guessing your milk float motor is at best 48v?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Woody a word of warning. Brush advance does not effect how fast the motor will spin its to help it commutate. I found this out the hard way thinking my 80v forklift motor would be fine at 96v with no advance. Yes it ran but was arcing like a welder and eventually distorted the com. Had to strip it and have the com turned and advanced about 8 degrees. Now runs at 120v no problems. I'm guessing your milk float motor is at best 48v?


The milkfloat was originally 72-96v so I am guessing that it will run at about 3500rpm at 96v without any futher changes. That, I hope, would mean not needing to advance it. However, I don't know if it was advanced in a previous life and is now back at neutral.
Rotating each brush box on its mounting post skews the brush contact area making a larger contact point and advancing the brush a little.









The 9" motor is only 24v at 900rpm and I would assume it would need a decent amount of advance to get it to commutate better. If I need to advance it a lot then reversing it to go backwards will cause a lot of arcing. I do spend a lot of time reversing, often fast and long.

The things that would make me choose the 9" is weight saving and the hope that it can spin to 6000rpm so I can direct drive the transmission.

I don't know if it will spin that fast.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Here's a madcap idea to increase the ratio of the K100 gearbox!
It came to me in my sleep this morning while I was dreaming gear ratios.

Right, this is the insides of the transmission:









It has a primary shaft that has a small 19t gear on it that engages with a large 36t (or 35t) gear on the layshaft.
They are the helical gears in this image.









The lay shaft then engages with the main shaft.









Anyway, this is my one. I opened the box to have a look, and then took most of it out to find the little detent spring that fell in the oil.
The layshaft is the one on the top left.


















The primary shaft has about a 1.8 or 1.9 reduction to the layshaft which then drives the main shaft.
So, I figured that if the layshaft was driven it would give me around 0.53 overdrive over what is standard.
That would give me motorway speeds in 4th gear at around 3000rpm.

I thought that if I removed the layshaft and welded on an extension where the bearing is, turned it back down to bearing size and then replaced the bearing with a sealed one I could have the end of the shaft poking through a new hole in the end of the casing. The existing shaft can stay where it is or it can be removed and the hole plugged up.
I could then drive CCW 1:1 ratio straight into the transmission.

Of course I could just use the 9" motor and see if it can run to 6000rpm without destroying itself.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, the motor option is still a close run thing, only 3" in it but another decision has been resolved.

I bought an MGA 15"x4.5" 60 spoke wire wheel.








It was new and unused and less then 1/3 of the shop price, bargain.

I also bought a set of octagonal centre lock nuts and a spanner, used but about 1/5 shop price.









So all I am looking for is a set of wire wheel hubs. Or at least one LHS one for the rear until I have the front wheel requirement sorted out.

The plan is to make a simple steel adaptor plate to mate the 115mm pcd of the splined hub to the 68mm pcd of the K100 hub and I will have a nice wire wheel for the back.

On that basis I have taken the tyre off the Virago wheel.
I was a bit unsure if I could remove it as I have only removed bicycle and trolley/barrow tyres in the past.
It wasn't too difficult in the end.
I let the air out of the tube and found that the tyre was so rigid that all my weight on it and it was barely flexing. The writing on the side wall says maximum loading is 950lbs at 37psi.
I used a large G cramp and a couple of bits of steel plate (with rounded corners) to break the bead from the rim.
Then kneeling on it I used a clean, blunt crow bar and carefully eased the tyre from the rim. It took me a couple of goes using a large cold chisel to hold the gap open before I managed to get the tyre off one side. The other side was easier.

That has saved me a tyre shop bill.

I will fit the tyre to the MGA rim myself too but I will be careful to not scratch the paint. It can then be professionally balanced.

I have put the Virago wheel on ebay along with a couple of the MR2 parts that were loose and knocking about.
I guess it is time to start selling with a vengence.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm probably way off base here but who says you can't have two gearboxes? Years ago I came across an off roader with two boxes. They could put em both in reverse for an ultra low ratio or both in top for mega overdrive. Could you squeeze in a small car or bike box? By the way i got a cbr engine/box you can have.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I could have two gearboxes, weight and length would be the only issues there. I have thought about using the Lada Niva transfer box backwards but it offsets the line of the shafts even further outboard of the centre line unless the box was upsidedown.

The trouble with bike gearboxes is that they have a large under drive ratio as the engines will rev to about 9-10k and they have to use the top end of that without doing 300mph everywhere.

All I need is to raise the ratio by about 0.6:1 with a simple reduction box.

I have made gearboxes before, for my 6x6 Land Rover for example I made a 3 speed transfer box that gave me a super low and an extra high set of ranges.
At 4000rpm the speed ranged from 1.5mph in low first to 108mph in high 5th.

Adding a second motorbike box would only bring the ratio even lower giving me a top speed of aboult 30mph. What I need to do is to sort out an overdrive. I could run the second box backwards but then I would have 10 gears and only use the top two.

The easy way is to get a set of duplex timing chain and sprockets.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120608596683&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I can make a small box to put them in and have an output that is 0.5:1 overdrive.

The more elegant way is to extend the gearbox lay shaft so it protrudes outside the box and drive from there with a short coupler or drive shaft. That would give me a 0.54:1 overdrive.

I had the gears out of the box again this morning to have a better look at that. It is possible but I would need someone with better engineering facilities to do it the way I want. that would allow me to use all the ratios in the box if I want. I can't even swap the cogs about as they are splined differently from mainshaft to lay shaft.

So, it is either extend the layshaft or make a little duplex chain overdrive.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

I want you to go to this link search on metal gears

http://www.mcmaster.com/#

Didn't forget the link this time.

I know that there has to be a similar type supply business in GB.

Getting the gears premade to your specs is half the battle. I think your latest layout will work quite well with a overdrive of your construction.

After all this is DIY.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jim, I have had a look there to see what is available and to compare prices.

One place I normally (or used to in the dim and distant past) get cheap gears from was Land Rover transfer boxes. Not as easy to find cheaply now though.

I will see if I can scavenge something when it comes to it as I can get the axis nice and close with gears whereas that isn't such a good idea with chain.

I am also going to find out about modifying the lay shaft as an input but I am watching a cheap second gearbox on Ebay just in case it goes wrong.
Using the layshaft will be a good way to do it but will off set the shaft from 90mm off centre to 140mm off centre.
I could still use a small gear, chain or belt drive set up or I could put the motor on a skew so that its CoG is still in the right place but have a CV joint as the coupler.

As you say, this is a DIY forum so I am aiming to do as much as I can myself.

I spent this evening on the lathe working on the drive flange for the 12". It has been sitting in the chuk for a few weeks now and I figured I should finish making it so that the 12" is at least usable.

Fun thing was (being me) I couldn't part off a 4" round as my lathe is too small so I marked it and then cut it with my trusty hacksaw. Took about 20 minutes and was a nice workout in the workshop gym!
I have managed to pilot drill the three threaded holes and I am part way though boring the centre out. Once it is at 31mm I will make a shaft to mount it on so I can finish turning it between centres to make sure it stays aligned.
I have off set the threaded holes 0.75mm inwards so that when I retap the holes the tap will cut into the existing threads a bit and make new threaded holes. That should cope with any other missalignment in the hole spacing.
No photos as my camera phone battery has been playing up.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A boring photo today.








That is the new adaptor for the 12" motor.

I rough machined it without a bore first an then marked and drilled the pilot holes and counter bored 8mm to the same depth as the end of the shaft. Then I drilled the centre out and began the boring boring bit.

It is bored out to 31mm and then reamed it as best I could with the equipment I have. Basically a bit of round bar with some abrasive around it to a snug fit and then a good rub round the inside to take the worst of the machining marks down a bit.

I then turned a bar to 31mm between centres and fitted the adaptor to it and held it with a set screw. I then turned the bearing surface so it should be concentric.

I think there was a little slop in the fitting as it isn't quite perfect but if it was any tighter I wouldn't have got it back out.

I fitted it to the motor shaft and made sure everything was in the right place and then carefully tapped the holes. Once the first one was done I put a screw in it to keep the location while I tapped the other two.

So now it is back on the motor.









It spins up nicely though there is a little vibration from the big rough turned lump on the outside.

I want to get it turned on the shaft now so that it is truely concentric, that may be a job I have to pay for though.

So I just need to sort out what to do with the two pairs of field cables.
I test using just one pair in series with the brushes and it spins up quickly and fast.
If I add the other field in series with the first it spins up slowly and gets to a good speed though slower. If I reverse one of the field pairs it spins up slowly but gets very fast. I haven't measured speed or amps yet but I will if someone can tell me what I need to measure, what I am looking for and what I do about it.


It is so good to have the motor usable again. I was dreading it ending up as scrap.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Just been thinking about your Trike. I like the motor over the trans the best. that allows you to sit back farther and protect your legs inside the structure. I know that there is some concern with that much weight up high but with a wide enough front stance it shouldn't be a real concern. Look at those Can Am three wheel motor cycles with two big people sitting way back and up high. I've heard no reports of them flipping. you'll be sitting low with all that battery weight low. I think you would be \OK with that set up.

A big cog belt drive would be the best set up. it's quiet and strong and there are almost limitless selections of hubs sizes and belts lengths with all kinds of tensioners. 

The nice things about putting it up there is it is a lot easier to work with a little room to move around.

Another neat thing, the motor could be inclosed into a plexiglass head faring like those on race cars. That should show off that pretty motor.

Asd far as a front end look around for a front end like the one I'm using on the new tractor. I found one with a blown engine that the guy had sold off all he could and scrapped the rest. They cut the front end off and sold it to me for $25.00. It was designed for a big vehicle that could take big people without flipping and they were fast so speed wont be a big problem. 

As far as putting bigger spoked wheels on the front of one I would look for a pair of old Honda CB 750 wheels and adapt the wheel and brake to the spindles. I've been looking at the ones on the big 13's chassis and I think it could be done. 

It should be easy to split and widen the front subframe. You would have to do some fiddling to get the Caster, Camber, Ackerman and SAI back into shape but since you are starting with a good structure it would be mostly good careful measuremente before welding and a bit of heat and bend on the steering arms for the Ackerman.

Starting from scratch is such a pain with all of the fixtureing and making all of those bushings for control arms and finding ball joints and then a knuckle and spindle with all those tapered holes OUCH.

Better to start with a nice light strong pre built unit. Going this way bypasses a lot nasty problems and lets you get on with the drivetrain problem.

Just some rambling thoughts and a couple of strong opinions.

Be well,
Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...Better to start with a nice light strong pre built unit. Going this way bypasses a lot nasty problems and lets you get on with the drivetrain problem...


I agree 100% with Jim on this. Using revised factory suspension systems on the Inhaler made some of the most complicated design issues relatively easy. I've also noticed that even the mega-buck hot rods I am so fond of use some factory setup, with minor geometry changes (mostly C5/6 Vette-based, a few Viper). It says something when the budget for a car is $250K-1mil, and they use Corvette suspension in front. They almost always use the factory knuckles, often with the factory alloy arms, and some with custom tubular arms. The geometry is always based on the Vette's basic setup.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I hear what you are saying Jim and in many ways I agree.

The trouble, for me, with the 9" is that the DE is awkward. The nose sticks out (I like prominent noses on women but not on my motors) making it necessary to cut a large diameter hole in a plate that would be larger then is needed for a pulley or gear.
Placing the motor above the transmission raises the CoG to 360mm from 309mm with the 12" on the floor. Placing the 12" over the transmission pushes it up to 400mm.

Oddly the 12" on the floor gives a lower CoG then the 9" on the floor due to my own CoG being so high up relative to the rest of the trike.

The front wheel track, at 1.5m, is already close to that on my road car.

I prefer the motor on the floor as it allows me to use the space above for light luggage and I am not so fussed about showing off the 9" motor and the 12" is big enough to make itself known. And, Boy, it sounds good!

The belt drive is clean and quiet but also needs a high tension so the pulley mounts will need to be extra heavy duty, not a weight problem but a stiffness problem. Chain needs less tension and gears none at all but needs a box and oil.
All depends on what comes in from my research and parts hunt.

The front end will depend on what turns up. I haven't seen any intact front ends like yours. Quads here tend to get sold in the smallest individual parts possible, probably because they have dubious ownership. The only whole-ish ones tend to be single front wheel or 50cc or electric for the kids to use in the garden.

Ready made light weight wishbones would be good as I only want to make them zero roll and that is all fabrication inboard of the mounts so not a problem to adapt and easy too.

I am watching for 13" MG front wheels though that would tie me into heavier MG Midget hubs, spindles and kingpins.
I am also watching some motor bike front wheels with twin discs so that I can have a pair of handed cylinders on a single disc each side.
I am also watching single fork scooter alloy wheels with disc brakes. I don't have a huge problem with alloy front wire rear as long as the overall look is right.
One of the potential issues with motorbike wheels is that those designed for two leg forks have a small spindle that wouldn't be strong enough for a single side fitting.

I do think the front seating position is a little vulnerable but the whole vehicle is in so many ways unless I fit a full cage and front and rear crumple zones. I will end up with a small car and a forth wheel.
I am open to extending the wheelbase and having a bit more front end before my feet. The current 2m wheel base and 2.9m overal length is only down to workshop space and trailering limitations when I take it to be inspected or to distant shows.

I do now have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that does all my maths for me so I can just throw in changes and see the numbers.


It is all still up in the air with a sensible 9" over trans vs mad 12" on the floor. The weight saving amounts to about 5 miles extra in a 60 mile range and about 7Wh/m.
However, a Blastolene type build will always make me smile more then a wife's shopping car.

I was looking for a body, specifically a glider cockpit and all I found was this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aircraft-Fuse...m-project-/190431989548?pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM
Not quite what I had in mind.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I agree 100% with Jim on this. Using revised factory suspension systems on the Inhaler made some of the most complicated design issues relatively easy. I've also noticed that even the mega-buck hot rods I am so fond of use some factory setup, with minor geometry changes (mostly C5/6 Vette-based, a few Viper). It says something when the budget for a car is $250K-1mil, and they use Corvette suspension in front. They almost always use the factory knuckles, often with the factory alloy arms, and some with custom tubular arms. The geometry is always based on the Vette's basic setup.


Yes, if I went with MG Midget wire wheels and hubs I would use matching recon spindles and kingpins and build my own lighter wishbones to the same dimensions as the Midget anyway. I would only add a little negative camber as I know that works.

However, a quad front end would save a lot of making.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I was looking for a body, specifically a glider cockpit and all I found was this:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aircraft-Fuse...m-project-/190431989548?pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM
> Not quite what I had in mind.


Too bad the days of findable, affordable aircraft fuel drop tanks are past. I've see some nice reworks of those.

Isn't it amazing how the people on this site can have so many different ways to accomplish the same thing. And even more amazing is they all seem to work to some level.

Jim


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Woody,

a good source for ready made wishbones would be many of the Lotus 7 type manufacturers. They don't charge too much for ready made wishbones and they can also supply the bushings. Many still use Ford sierra uprights with an extension on top to the ball joints. You can also check out Rally Designs. They have a choice of their own uprights in steel or sexy (and expensive) aluminium. They can supply 7 type wishbones too, I think.

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Andrew.
I was thinking of that from my dim and distant past when I wanted to build a kit car. Some of the budget kits used Mk1/2 Escort struts converted to top wishbones and coil overs.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Right, going back to basics for a sanity check.

Having taken on board everything that Jim and Todd, and everyone else have been saying I have taken a step back today and had a long hard think about the trike.

I want a cool looking trike that is fun to own and drive.
It needs to be light weight so I don't have to spend too much on batteries.
It is supposed to be my commuter vehicle so it has to be practical both in use and in build.
It need not be a mad bout of silliness and extremes unless it doesn't affect the above.

So I will carry on working on the 12" to fine tune the coupler and work out how best to use it, but on another vehicle, more another time.

I will use the 9" motor but not over the transmission. It will sit on the floor and shaft drive the transmission so that it allows a level of flexibility in the vehicle and makes alignment and fitting easy. I have posted a thread in Motors to try and get some advice on running it up to 5500rpm.

I will lower the seat base and raise the seat back so that I am in a more upright driving position, easier to move about to get a better view of the road and for fidgeting on a long commute.

Batteries will be in two banks, one at the front and one around the motor for weight distribution.

There will be 25kg luggage space above the motor and transmission.

I want roll over protection, a hoop or partial cage. It will also add some rigidity to the chassis.

It really needs to be less then 350kg (preferably less then 300kg) plus me, batteries and luggage.

Front suspension must be anti roll, zero roll hoped for, and made using proprietry components from a large quad if I can find one.

Must have a proper steering wheel and car type controls.

So not a lot of change but it should settle the design so that I can start working on something rather then everything.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Right, going back to basics for a sanity check.
> 
> So not a lot of change but it should settle the design so that I can start working on something rather then everything.


Sounds like a good plan to start with. 

It's always nice to go for the insane max but sometimes you just have to back off and go with what you can deal with. If you try for the max you may never get started.

Once you are going you never know what will turn up.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is very true, Jim.
It has been a good time to step back and reassess before I start spending on to many more things.

Last week I had even thought about leaving the K100 set up and trying to find the parts for that Virago wheel as it looks better. 
Now that the Virago wheel is selling on ebay I have found that it is a Dragstar wheel, and Dragstar parts cost loads more then Virago parts so I am happy not to be going with it.

I am going to have to start looking at the Open Revolt controller I think. I can't afford a 96V Curtis never mind a Soliton1 at the moment but it is something I can't run without.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

If you need any help with the controller let me know. I've a spare logic board and lots of igbts


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Jack, I'm not even sure what parts I need to order or what I can get locally. I'm afraid my electrinics ability stops at the point when the solder cools down so I will be looking for a fair bit of advice at that point.

Is it a straight forward solder it together and it is ready to run or is there more to it, testing, adjusting and calibration as well?


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

Woody, 
I think I have posted these before, but just in case,,,,,,, What I find most interesting is the treatment of the door area. One of those simple, great ideas



http://www.autospeed.com/A_110990/cms/article.html

http://www.autospeed.com/A_110989/cms/article.html


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Right, going back to basics for a sanity check.
> 
> Having taken on board everything that Jim and Todd, and everyone else have been saying I have taken a step back today and had a long hard think about the trike.
> 
> It really needs to be less then 350kg (preferably less then 300kg) plus me, batteries and luggage.


That's going to take some effort, but sounds doable. You just need to start now with the scale and work against your weight budget constantly. 
Keep in mind, adding 200-250kg of you, batteries and luggage makes this a pretty heavy vehicle. At 550+ kilos and highway speeds, you will be beyond what quad suspension or brake components can handle, even the stronger aftermarket CrMo pieces made for racing. Besides, they typically don't have the automotive scrub and roll geometry that you are looking for, so yeah, the Locost, Spridget or microcar suspension bits are going to be the way to go.

If your frame is steel, you're going to have to pay attention to wall thicknesses and material used. This is usually how small vehicles like the RQ Riley designs and home-builts pork up- too much steel in the frame and automobile suspension parts that are twice as heavy as they could be.

Your spreadsheet sounds cool. If it manages your weights for you, all the better.


> Must have a proper steering wheel and car type controls.


The best compromise I've seen there is a dune buggy steering box, and there are many options with them, but they are cheap, light and strong:

http://www.desertkarts.com/productCat40912.ctlg

In my experience, its all about the details. I've pulled many pounds out of my trike (target gross weight 400lbs,) but it has been ounces at a time looking at every last thing very carefully. I weigh each component as I acquire, adapt and finish it. So far, every single one has been through two or three iterations to get what I need. 

There have been many surprises. I use aviation parts and construction techniques wherever they are applicable. I have line items in the weight budget for fasteners, wiring and body filler/paint layers. When doing a blank sheet scratch build like this against a tight weight limit, Since I don't have the time or money to build it twice, I've discovered that all the open details really need to be figured out before chassis construction can begin. 

If you don't care so much about the weight, you can build faster.

Have at it!

TomA


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

grayballs said:


> Woody,
> I think I have posted these before, but just in case,,,,,,, What I find most interesting is the treatment of the door area. One of those simple, great ideas
> 
> 
> ...


Team Trev is on the move. 

The car has been substantially improved, with new motor, controller, batteries, brakes and front suspension, and it is coming to the US shortly with the Zero Race that started Monday in Geneva:

http://teamtrev.com/

Better still, its an open source project:

http://www.trevipedia.net

TomA


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd have most of the bits to build the controller. Drop me a line when your at that stage and we'll get it sorted.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Those are great links, thank you, both.

Tom, Yes weight is going to be the big issue while I am being sensible, the lighter I can get it the more likely hood that my spreadsheet iterations for power requirement will be achivable.

I am hoping to be able to build with a combination steel and moulded plywood for strength and rigidity. This is where the expanded foam carving will improve the outline I end up with.

If you think the Quad parts are not adequate I will take your word for it. I am still keen on using MG Midget front kingpins and brake assembly on my own double wishbones as a stronger option. It will take time to source those cheaply though so I am not settling on the design until I can. However, I can work on mating the transmission to the motor.
I think that using a drive shaft will add a weight that will be saved by not having to make up a rigid close coupled adaptor and make the overall job simpler to do and allow me to change to a better motor if I need to later on.

I am recording weights of parts as I consider them and have sorted my spread sheet to calculate weight distribution across the axles front to back and also the height of the CoG for roll over stability.
I will need to add a distribution width ways too as the motor will now have to be offset to the right to align with the transmission shaft, only 90mm but it will make a difference.
I will, as you say, need to plan everything as much as I can before I make to ensure the weight doesn't creep up.

I am also considering, when it is rolling, to buy three cheap bathroom scales and put one under each wheel while I am building.

Looking at the trike in the links I am considering that maybe the luggage compartment over the motor and transmission could double as a short run 'dickie seat' as was common in early cars.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jack, I will be in touch before I place an order to see what I need to get.

With the motor apart for photos I decided to order some new bearings.








The DE bearing is an odd size that I can't find. 35mm id, 72mm od, 23mm wide. The best I could get was 17mm wide so I will need to make a 6mm spacer.

I placed the motor frame in front of the transmission to gauge the height and offset. I have used the Lada Niva shaft for now as it would do if I bolted the CV joint to the clutch centre given the splines fit the tail shaft.

















In reality, and given there is a little play in the CV, I will probably see if I can get a short shaft with a sliding section and a bolt on CV at both ends.

I think Ford Sierra and VW use common bolt on CVs but I will speak to a Propshaft company to see what the professional cost would be to get the shaft right and balanced. I will also look at motorbike and steering column UJs as a smaller option. Idealy I would like a joint with an internal 6x21x25 spline or better still a 6x24x28 spline and I could then use the DE shaft.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

A couple of comments. 

Try looking for the bearing size under US SAE inch sizes. I've run into that before. Can't find it under metric but there it is under SAE.

That spline looks a lot like a spline I see used on farm equipment. Again try looking under inch dimensions PTO couplers.

Hope this helps.
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jim, I just tried converting to inches and searching for the bearing. The 72mm OD doesn't convert to any conventional fraction so I don't think it would be SAE.

I am also going to check the 6x24x28mm spline and to get the conversion to inches I googled and got this.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/24MM_is_how_many_inches
Not exactly engineering tolerance!


The DE spline seems to be 6x 15/16 x 1 1/8 which could be the same as the smaller Ferguson tractor PTO shaft. I could get a 1 1/8" to 1 3/8" adaptor to play with or to find a PTO shaft with the smaller UJ.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Big package arrived today!

I got my MGA 15"x4.5" 60 spoke wheel, new and unused.
I had to put one of the centre lock nuts on it to have a look, Made me think I should have got onew nuts but these were so cheap and not that bad condition.









I rushed to put the tyre on it, fitted one side easily but then found that the inner tube wouldn't fit as it has an angled valve. I had to go out to find one. Tyre looks kinda small.









The local tyre shop said no one would stock tubes anymore as they are so rarely fitted. So I found my local family run bike shop and got one there. Nice place and it was good to support the local business. Chatting to them lead to me finding out that there is a trike building company a few miles away so I will pop in for a chat about rules and regs for the MSVA.

So back with the tube and fitted the tyre. I took it out side to inflate it.
Looks a lot bigger with air in it.









This is how it looks placed against the K100.









I think it will look great.

Just got to find the MG Midget set up for the front now.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have just asked a local propshaft company to price up a short shaft to go between the motor and transmission for a direct drive.

While I had all the bits in the car I popped into a fork truck motor place and asked their opinion of the armature and how fast I could safely run it. Their opinion was no more then 3000rpm.

That is too slow for direct drive and will require me to have some sort of overdrive just as with the 12" motor.

I think I will have to bite the bullet and sort out a chain or belt. Gears would be nice given the DE already has a gear wheel on it but the case fabrication will become weighty and excessive.
Now, with the short propshaft in mind and the concerns over radial loads on the tranmission primary shaft, I am thinking of mounting the motor pointing forwards and then having a jack shaft fixed to the side of the front of the casing. The jackshaft can then drive a propshaft to the transmission down the side of the motor.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Woody,

You simply NAILED IT with the look of that rear wheel/tire!!
Awesome!
Now you have no choice but to go with the Midget front end. (at least the wheels).

Eric


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I have just asked a local propshaft company to price up a short shaft to go between the motor and transmission for a direct drive.
> 
> While I had all the bits in the car I popped into a fork truck motor place and asked their opinion of the armature and how fast I could safely run it. Their opinion was no more then 3000rpm.
> 
> ...


Woody,

Before you give up on a less expensive direct drive to the transmission, check with motor shops and see if anyone can band the com and armature.

Otherwise the jack shaft idea sounds like a good one. Be a bit more expensive though.

Have you, at any time, done a bit of research to see if you couldn't find a used, better suited motor, that would save you all this Fooforah. Might save you money as well as time.

I know that sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and go with what you have, but don't the the problems mask a better path.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks esoneson. You can see where the picture in my head is going with this now the wheel is there. 

I am watching a set of Midget front hubs, discs and kingpins with a full rear axle all set up for wire wheels and also a set of 5 wire wheels from the same seller.
It is a bit of a long way off, 170 miles but worth it if I can get it cheaply enough. I can sell the axle and three of the wheels to get some of the money back.

With that set up I only need to make the wishbones which I was planning on making anyway.

One annoying thing is the K100 disc brake. The disc is pretty much worn out with lots of grooves and very thin. It might scrape past an inspection with an advisory but I wouldn't like to run it.
Cost of a 'pattern' part? £190! It might as well be made of gold, and would cost more then gold if I went to a BMW dealer!

I might have to get one made.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Before you give up on a less expensive direct drive to the transmission, check with motor shops and see if anyone can band the com and armature.
> 
> ...


I asked at the motor shop about improving it but the chap wasn't keen. I think he is also very conservative in his opinions as he only deals with standard truck motors and works to the manufacturers plate. I think the fastest he experiences would be around 2500rpm. Maybe he isn't so knowledgeable when it comes to pushing the limits. He wasn't even sure I should go above the 24v rated on the plate!

We are not blessed with many motor shops here so I may look further afield anyway.

I am still looking for a small fast motor in any case. That was one reason for going with the prop shaft solution as it would allow me to change the motor at any stage of the build or after. Even with the jack shaft, the shaft would be a part of this motor leading to a prop flange for easy connection where it would have been otherwise.
The 12" might even find its way back in. Maybe I could have swappable motor trays. Little motor for the commute, 12" for the car shows.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I got the new motor bearing in the post today so tomorrow I should make up a 6mm spacer and reassemble the motor again. I can then start planning a jack shaft. I have looked at toothed belts but I think the pulleys are going to be more then I want to spend at this time. I could get a set of timing sprockets and duplex chain for less then the cost of one belt pulley so I will most probably go with that. I can put it in a thick steel chain case to catch oil and stray links!

It will give me a 2:1 ratio meaning that I can drive in 2nd and 4th with 5th for long downhills where there are no speed traps and also lock it in 1st for shows and test drives.



Woodsmith said:


> Looking at the trike in the links I am considering that maybe the luggage compartment over the motor and transmission could double as a short run 'dickie seat' as was common in early cars.


Today I went to see a furniture exhibition with a female friend. During the 2 1/2 hour drive we talked about many things including my trike project.
She says I *have to have* a passenger seat!

I have been playing with some theoretical figures and swapping 25kg luggage for a 70kg(max) person in a 'dickie seat' will raise the CoG by around 70-100mm and could move the weight distribution from just slightly front heavy to just slightly back heavy. Only about +3% to -3% if I set up the unladen distribution to a best compromise.

I can probably live with that and can use 'movable luggage' as weight distribution if I want perfection.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...She says I *have to have* a passenger seat!...


I've been trying to tell you guys - you have to have a little honey seat!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Today I went to see a furniture exhibition with a female friend. During the 2 1/2 hour drive we talked about many things including my trike project.
> She says I *have to have* a passenger seat!


LOL just pull a trailer with a lawn chair (bungee cord to hold it down ) I think the seat in that roadster is called a "Rumble Seat" in the old days here in the states... Jim? 

Build a bolt on side car seat for those times you need to have someone ride with......


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> ...I think the seat in that roadster is called a "Rumble Seat" in the old days here in the states... Jim?...


Yup.





Dave Koller said:


> ...Build a bolt on side car seat for those times you need to have someone ride with......


Dude, the point of a proper honey seat is to keep her as close as possible!  Just make sure you enjoy hearing what she has to say, in a quiet EV!  Or, maybe it could be an ejector style honey seat!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOl. Todd
You are right!!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> I think the seat in that roadster is called a "Rumble Seat" in the old days here in the states... Jim? quote]
> 
> Yup, my Dad's 37 Oldsmobile business coupe had one. He very seldom let us ride with the seat open. We usually just crawled into the space behind the front seats. If I remember right you could (if you were little) get from the front to the rumble seat.
> 
> That was a long time ago Dave, I was like 5 yeras old.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Rumble seat, dickie seat, I've heard both terms used way back when....



toddshotrods said:


> I've been trying to tell you guys - you have to have a little honey seat!


Like this?











Dave Koller said:


> LOL just pull a trailer with a lawn chair (bungee cord to hold it down )


Somthing like this then?












toddshotrods said:


> Yup.
> Dude, the point of a proper honey seat is to keep her as close as possible!  Just make sure you enjoy hearing what she has to say, in a quiet EV!  Or, maybe it could be an ejector style honey seat!


Thing is, the seat will be behind mine and slightly higher being over the motor. Legs would have to be around my waist height and arms aound my neck height and it will be a fairly tight squeeze to get in.
Now, we all know that an old motor with a short propshaft is not going to run absolutlely smoothly with perfect balance.....

I know I wouldn't want to sit there.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have been examining my stocks of parts to find something usable for this jackshaft.

I have found the toothed pulleys from the old MR2 engine. The cam and crank pulleys are 46 and 23 tooth respectively giving 0.5:1. That is a bit high but I could run in lower gears.
However, I also found the oil pump pulley which has 26 teeth giving me a nice 0.565:1 which is a lot better. Also the pump pulley maybe easier to mount on the jack shaft then the crank pulley.









The belt size is HTD-640-M8-30; 640mm (80 tooth) long, 8mm pitch by 30mm wide will do the job. Having found out all this I also find that my local RS components sell the HTD belts cheaper then the engineering supplies I have been looking at for the information.

I have a 25mm pillow block bearing so a second one will sort out the jack shaft mounting and decide the jack shaft to be 25mm diameter. I have some 1" bright bar that has some surface rust on so that will do.

All I will need to do is to figure connecting the propshaft to the tail end of the jackshaft without spending too much money. A simple removable flange will be good.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Sounds like you are on your way to a really good solution. With this set up you wont need killer voltage to get the speed you want and keeps the cost of components reasonable. A 72 volt controller should run that motor to 3000 rpm with no problem, plus you wont be stressing the insulation. So you can concentrate on lots of amps for distance.

A thought in design. Don't make belt replacement too difficult and maybe leave room in your design for doubleing up pulleys and belts. Those belts do break and they are not easy to get off like replacing a chain. Make sure you get the best belt available.

I'm glad you got away from using a timing chain set, even with continious lube I don't think it would have lasted long. 

Keep it up (progress I mean),
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, the timing chain idea was in desperation.

The belt will allow me to get set up and, given there are two matching big pulleys I can double them up and get a new small pulley for a wider belt if I find I need to.

The pulleys will only have a mounting on one side so that removing the tension will be enough to slide the belt on or off.
I do want to eventually go a little over the top with the belt size to ensure I don't break it, or carry a replacement as well in case I do.
I will also need a system to stop the motor if the belt does break.

I was also wondering about a tensioner that will presses on the outside of the belt. If It had a lever attached that had a brake pad on it. it would be the belt tension that stops the brake pad hitting the motor pulley. If the belt brakes the brake is applied as the tensioner springs inwards.
What do you think?
I will want to have an over speed cut out on the tacho shift light too.

One advantage with keeping the speed safe and low is the lower voltage requirements. That with the Open Revolt controller good for 12-144v will mean that I can get my pack and increase voltage only if I find I need to. that was one concern with, say, a Curtis. I would have to decide what size pack I had and get the controller to suit. I would then be stuck with 72-96 or something like that and have to get a new controller if I go to 144v.

At least, if it works at 72v I can parallel a second pack for range, it will help balance out the extra weight and weight distribution of all these jars of honey that Todd wants me to lug around.


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## RobSmith (Aug 13, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> I have been examining my stocks of parts to find something usable for this jackshaft.
> 
> I have found the toothed pulleys from the old MR2 engine. The cam and crank pulleys are 46 and 23 tooth respectively giving 0.5:1. That is a bit high but I could run in lower gears.
> However, I also found the oil pump pulley which has 26 teeth giving me a nice 0.565:1 which is a lot better. Also the pump pulley maybe easier to mount on the jack shaft then the crank pulley.
> ...


I would be careful with putting a lot of power through these pulleys.
They are some sort of sintered material that is extremely hard wearing for doing millions of rotations in a car engine where they are not under huge loads. The material is strong but not tough. When they break they just shatter. If a failure will not do any harm then not a problem.
You might having fun machining them too... they are rather hard.

Rob


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I was also wondering about a tensioner that will presses on the outside of the belt. If It had a lever attached that had a brake pad on it. it would be the belt tension that stops the brake pad hitting the motor pulley. If the belt brakes the brake is applied as the tensioner springs inwards.
> What do you think?


K.I.S.S. All you would need here is a simple switch on the tensioner arm to break the contactor control circuit. The brake pad idea is too complicated and probably wouldn't stop a runaway anyway. For redundancy you could have a mechanical disconnect linked to the tensioner arm.



Woodsmith said:


> I will want to have an over speed cut out on the tacho shift light too.


Good idea for other broken parts, mine continues to work flawlessly each time I test it before each pull. I also have that BIG Red Button handy in case I get a controller failure.



Woodsmith said:


> At least, if it works at 72v I can parallel a second pack for range, it will help balance out the extra weight and weight distribution of all these jars of honey that Todd wants me to lug around.


Hey we all need a little (even big ones) hunny once in a while.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

RobSmith said:


> I would be careful with putting a lot of power through these pulleys.
> They are some sort of sintered material that is extremely hard wearing for doing millions of rotations in a car engine where they are not under huge loads. The material is strong but not tough. When they break they just shatter. If a failure will not do any harm then not a problem.
> You might having fun machining them too... they are rather hard.
> 
> Rob


I had wondered what they were made from....

With the small pulley I was going to secure it with an M8 centre nut as original and have 4 M12 cap screws driving thought the four 12mm holes into a boss on the jack shaft. That would sandwich the pulley and not require any machining of it.

The larger one was also going to be sandwich clamped to a drive flange. The flange I have is actually the gear wheel from the motor so I will have to drill that for the clamping bolts.
I was also going to try machining out the centre, on the lathe, to the minor diameter of the splines and then sawing and filling out splines to the major diameter to there is some drive from the motor splines too. If it works then fine but no loss if it doesn't as it can still be driven on the outer ends of the spokes with the clamping bolts.

If all goes wrong then, so long as the concept has been proved I can replace the pulleys with proper ones or replace the motor for a high speed one straight onto the drive shaft.


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## RobSmith (Aug 13, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> I had wondered what they were made from....
> 
> With the small pulley I was going to secure it with an M8 centre nut as original and have 4 M12 cap screws driving thought the four 12mm holes into a boss on the jack shaft. That would sandwich the pulley and not require any machining of it.
> 
> ...


Clamping them between the end of a shaft and a realy thick washer or another pulley is the normal way.
I think you will have a job filing out the splines. The material might be harder than your files.
Edit: If you can get enough clamp load to sandwhich the pulley then friction might be enough.
Rob


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

RobSmith said:


> Clamping them between the end of a shaft and a realy thick washer or another pulley is the normal way.
> I think you will have a job filing out the splines. The material might be harder than your files.
> Edit: If you can get enough clamp load to sandwhich the pulley then friction might be enough.
> Rob


I've just been back in the workshop to have a quick play.
I am going to go back with the crank pulley as the bore is 31mm and I have 32mm bright bar.
I can turn most of the bar to fit the bearings but leave the end at 31mm. I can then saw in the keyway to match the crank keyway and fit the pulley that way.

I also had a look at how hard the pulleys were. I can scribe it with my scribing point easily, I think it is more soft then hard, at least in the middle. The teeth may have a treatment but I didn't want to scratch them as it may lead to damage to the belt if I raise a burr on it.

I think clamping the big pulley is the way to go but also letting it drive the spokes with the clamping bolts.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody, 

Have a look at an industrial supply place like the McMasters Carr link (www.mcmaster.com) I sent a while ago. I just looked and found a wealth of types and information. You just might save yourself a lot of time and greif and redoing by just spending a few pounds up front for the right stuff. Things like sprockets with taper locks and the like.

Just a thought, sometimes biting the bullet and paying the price saves money in the long run.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Have a look at an industrial supply place like the McMasters Carr link (www.mcmaster.com) I sent a while ago. I just looked and found a wealth of types and information. You just might save yourself a lot of time and greif and redoing by just spending a few pounds up front for the right stuff. Things like sprockets with taper locks and the like.
> 
> ...


Just priced up pulleys, 48t and .28t with taperlock bushes and a belt from an engineering supplies shop.
With 50mm wide belt £255.
With 30mm wide belt £225
Too much to spend on that right now. Most of the cost is in the taper lock bush.

Shopping around I have managed to get the cost of 30mm components down to £66. That is more affordable. Huge price difference!


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is a good supplier.http://www.econobelt.com/
Regards,
John


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Shopping around I have managed to get the cost of 30mm components down to £66. That is more affordable. Huge price difference!


Woody,

I'm very glad you looked elsewhere. I don't know what the current currency exchange rate is (about 1.5 to one I think) but yes that does sound about right.

Have you any ideas or specifications about the power transfer ability of a standard 30 mm (1.18 inch) fiberglas belt? I know Harley Davison belts handle a lot of torque but arn't they Kevlar based? I would think that somewhere there should be a specification of how much torque a toothed belt can handle. I beleive high tooth count is important and so are the tensioners. Hope you didn't forget that vital component.

It might be a good idea to research the difference in strength between 30 and 50 mm belts. If the 30 is good enough OK. But buying the 30 and finding out you needed the 50 would be expensive. Again I don't have the math to figure it but I know that someone in that school of yoursshould know at least where to look for the information.

Now is not the time to cheap out (ask me how I know).

I still think you are on the right track. I only wish I had gone with belts instead of chains when I did my double engine puller. Much quieter.

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Try these guys:
http://challengept.com/

I've gotten bits from them for years. MUCH cheaper than anywhere else. Example the 13t taperlock sprockets for my bike project cost 6 euros each.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Try these guys:
> http://challengept.com/
> 
> I've gotten bits from them for years. MUCH cheaper than anywhere else. Example the 13t taperlock sprockets for my bike project cost 6 euros each.


Jack,

Does seem to have the stuff needed . . . plus a bit of technical specifications, that's alway helpfull.

If, as you say the price is right, then everone in the European EV DYI scene should be aware of it.

I'll bet Woody will love it.

We probably have the same type of large volume specialized company over here. I should be useing them but I'm impatient and lazy. I like to shop for as much as possible in one place. Plus McMasters Carr has one wonderful quality . . . location and shipping. I can order tonight and in many cases UPS delivers it the next day. I like that

Jim

P.S. We need a sticky thread or maybe a WIKI place where we can list our "special places". by location and type of supplies/information.

E.G.
I would just love to know of peoples best, cheapest, or fastest source of used motors in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana. Or batteries.

Things like that. 

It will take someone more computer savey than me to set it up.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That 'Challenge' site certainly is well named. I found it a Challenge to navigate and access information.
I have now emailed them for an account and password to get into their shop.

I am in two minds about the amount of money and effort to put in. 
The belt drive and jackshaft is still a bodge to get things moving as I would much prefer a high speed motor with direct drive.
To that end I feel reluctant to spend too much at the moment so I may carry on and leave the buying and building to a little later in case a faster motor turns up.
At least now I know it is possible.

I have also been trying to find an online calculator (that works) for calculating the belt size and capacity. Anyone know of one before I start building a spreadsheet of my own?

The 'ondrives' catalogue seems to suggest, on their technical tables, that a 30mm wide HDT belt with a 24t small pulley running at 6000rpm will handle a power of 15.61 and a 50mm wide belt will handle a power of 27.12.
I might assuming that they mean kW but they don't specify a unit.




I am now looking at methods of body construction to make a two seat body.
Unsure of whether or not to have it integrated as a structural member or to have it sit on a strong and rigid chassis. No way of testing the integated build for structural strength and fatigue stresses prior to the build without better CAD knowledge and FEA. However, my 'seat of the pants' method of design hasn't failed me yet but does lead to a heavier build.
It could be a strong but slightly flexible chassis using the body mounts and panels for stiffness.

I want a strong cockpit. One piece with no doors but the passenger seat will have a removable or swing away hatch to make it secure as a luggage space.
I am picturing something with similar lines to Fishguts' trike but without the nice beak at the front. The area behind the driver's head will be the highest point, aligned with the top of a roll hoop that is above helmet height. It will fall back to form a Kammback profile to improve aerodynamics a tthe back end. A section will be removable for luggage and passenger access so it's size and profile will need to be storable, maybe as a seat back rest.

The front wheel fenders/wings/arches may be integrated with the body or may be 'cycle' wings. I am undecided as cycle wings would look nice with wire wheels but integrated will be more efficient and make MSVA easier to pass.

I am going to spend some time drawing today I think. 
It will help me reduce the burning fire of anger at my bank for removing a huge sum of money for overdraft fees when I don't have an overdraft with them! It is most of a month's income they have taken so really annoyed at the knock on effect on my bill paying ability.
The positive side is that I will finally go and close all my accounts with the bank and move to an 'ethical' bank like the Co-op. My family have had 100 years of banking with the same bank and it is time for a divorce.
Rant over.

Right, back to work.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Can't speak for the website but as i say the guys i deal with in the local shop are great. Next day delivery , credit card over the phone , no minimum order or any other bs. 

speaking of banks mine tried it on a few weeks ago. Had applied for an received a credit card. First "normal" one in almost a decade after the latest prepaid one i'd been using closed down. Didn't have the thing a week and checked my online statement one morning before going to work to see a debit of almost 500 euros Long story short after several phone calls , a registered letter and threating them with the financial regulator they admitted to a "computer errror" and returned the money. Over the years they've tried it on with all sorts of things but can't catch me cos every wednesday when my wages hit the account i'm down to the atm , withdraw the lot and stick it in my credit union. I only leave enough in the day before to cover any direct debits. Learnt that lesson after 6 years of business banking fun

Regards the drive system i wouldn't bother with too much paper engineering. Just build it as robustly as space and finances allow. But i guess thats just me.

This thread and Jim's keeps making me pop out to the workshop where the "warp13" and a bmw diff are patiently waiting ..........


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi Woody
I've found the Gates belt drive design software useful for getting an idea of which belts I need. You have to register with the company first, but the download is free: http://www.gates.com/designflex/index.cfm?location_id=809

If the transmission ratio you need is fairly low <2:1 you will probably only need the 30 mm wide 14 mm pitch belt. This is the same as used on most Harleys I believe.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Over the years they've tried it on with all sorts of things but can't catch me cos every wednesday when my wages hit the account i'm down to the atm , withdraw the lot and stick it in my credit union. I only leave enough in the day before to cover any direct debits. Learnt that lesson after 6 years of business banking fun


I started doing that recently but it was a good job I left a load in there that covered the bank's 'charges' otherwise I would have been overdrawn.



jackbauer said:


> Regards the drive system i wouldn't bother with too much paper engineering. Just build it as robustly as space and finances allow. But i guess thats just me.


That is the tempting and easy option, right down to welding the pulleys on the shaft!



MalcolmB said:


> Hi Woody
> I've found the Gates belt drive design software useful for getting an idea of which belts I need. You have to register with the company first, but the download is free: http://www.gates.com/designflex/index.cfm?location_id=809
> 
> If the transmission ratio you need is fairly low <2:1 you will probably only need the 30 mm wide 14 mm pitch belt. This is the same as used on most Harleys I believe.


I will give that site a try.
The more complex thing is that I don't know what effect there is on the drive being a 1:2 overdrive. The big pulley is on the motor at 3000rpm and the jack shaft has the small pulley at 6000rpm.



Right, bodyshell.
I had a thought. If I made the floor from formed plywood into a shallow inverted 'U' say 600mm wide and 50mm deep I could run a 50mm tube chassis inside the radius of the bend in the plywood under the floor. That would be both strong and allow steel attachment points for the suspension, motor and transmission.
The downward facing curved edges would allow a sheet ply side to be glued on to make the sides of the cockpit leaving a 50mm lip below floor level. That forms a hollow under the floor to give some ground effect aerodynamics.
I can also incorporate compound curves that way and have added rigidity.

It will mean getting a vacuum bag press though, but I know a college that has one!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have just bought an MGB front sub assembly. Subframe, anti roll bar, wishbones, dampers, springs, wire wheel hubs, discs, brakes, steering rack.
I will strip it for just the parts I need and sell the rest.

I just need to find out if I can squeeze the bigger MGB brakes inside a Midget 13" wheel.

I looked back for the link that TomA posted for buggy racks.


TomA said:


> The best compromise I've seen there is a dune buggy steering box, and there are many options with them, but they are cheap, light and strong:
> http://www.desertkarts.com/productCat40912.ctlg
> TomA


One of them would be good so I will see if there is a cheaper way or a local supplier.

While I was looking on the site I found this.
http://www.desertkarts.com/item172188.ctlg








A steering quickener with a 2:1 ratio.

Now, I wonder how much torque it could take?
That quickener with a balanced UJ on each end would be an ideal prop shaft from my motor to the transmission.
Gives me a flexible drive and a 1:2 over drive!


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Nope, the steering quickener won't work to transfer power.

I will be using it on the Moonray because I want less than 1 turn lock-to-lock steering. I don't have it yet but I've inquired about it. Its very light, like a kilo or so, and has bushes on the shafts and not bearings. It runs with a very little grease inside. It is built for high torque, but almost no rotational movement.

If you drive it with a motor, it will almost certainly overheat and fail. If you load it laterally, it will probably burn up even quicker.

I don't know this for sure, but I do know that reduction gearboxes up to your motor's output and vehicle weight (cast iron agricutural stuff, the last time I looked) probably weigh and cost 5-15 times what this steering gear doubler does...

TomA


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Woodsmith
> 
> The issue with high C of G and low width cannot be answerred by suspension - its simple force dynamics
> The cornering force x height of C of G must be balanced by the couple from the wheels (in this case the front wheels!)
> ...


I have just incorporated this into my spreadsheet so I can now type in a value for cornering g and it will tell me if I will tip over.


Cheers Tom, I couldn't find anything on its capabilities but it was just thought that I could do with something like that, but loads stronger.
Suitable ones would be too big to build into a shaft, it would need to be a part on the motor or the transmission.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I have just incorporated this into my spreadsheet so I can now type in a value for cornering g and it will tell me if I will tip over.


There's actually a lot more to it than that. Here's a good place to start if you really want to know:

http://rqriley.hostcentric.com/3-wheel.htm

See also Walter Korff's book Designing Tomorrow's Cars and Paul Van Valkenburg's SAE paper for the DOT on 3 Wheeler Stability.

The essence of all three texts is simple, though: you want 1/3 of the weight on each wheel, with the mass placed as low and centrally in the chassis as you can possibly get it. The Cg on the Trihawk is something like 6" off the ground, and on pavement it is unflippable. Really work on lowering that Cg, and you can probably skip the math; OTOH, fool yourself with calculations where your Cg isn't really as low as is humanly possible, and you invite trouble...

TomA


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi TomA

_*There's actually a lot more to it than that. Here's a good place to start if you really want to know*_:

The same equation holds true - same as the article - a different way of looking at it - but you get the same numbers!

You can use it with brake loads as well!

I agree about the C of G height - low is good! 
In fact I would go further unless you can go as wide as a car a trike will need to be too low for safe road use

I fancy a leaning trike - it then needs to be quite high to clear the front wheels on lean


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

TomA said:


> There's actually a lot more to it than that. Here's a good place to start if you really want to know:
> 
> http://rqriley.hostcentric.com/3-wheel.htm
> 
> ...


Yes, it is more complex but sometimes a spreadsheet to do the basic maths is a good indicator of impending doom.

Currently with almost everything being an assumption the CoG is around 500kg at 250mm high with a track of 1400mm. A passenger greatly increases that to around 350mm.

It would be interesting to see if I can get down to 150mm. Using the 12" motor helped a lot towards that.

Are there any assumptions for CoG of a seated (male) body with legs outstretched?
I am also assuming the CoG of an upright lithium cell to be mid height of the battery box, it is likely to be a fair bit below that given the air space at the top of the cell and terminal clearance at the top of the battery box.
CoG and mass of chassis and bodywork is pure guesswork for the moment.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Made a jack shaft today.
It will be supported on two 25mm pillow block bearings with the MR2 crank pulley on one end and a spline to match the old brake disk from the 9" motor.

Some more hand cut splines, 6 x 21mm x 25mm. This one ended up being a little narrow at one end but is ok when fitted.









Fitted to the brake disc. I will need to cut this down and turn it to mate with a propshaft UJ flange. I don't know what size that will be yet so I will do it when I have the part. I have a propshaft company working out what I will need at the moment.









The pulley and one bearing fitted. The pulley is located with one of the woodruff keys from the original crankshaft end. I will also need to buy a second bearing to go at the other end of the shaft.
It iwll all need to come apart again anyway as I want to turn the flange on the shaft and between centres.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Cg of the human body depends on position, orientation, body fat cmposition, even gender. Even so, a decent and reliable rough estimate for a seated figure is the Cg at the navel. That's what I've been using...

TomA


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Tom, my guestimate wasn't too far off.


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## RobSmith (Aug 13, 2010)

I would guess the C.O.G of a person would be roughly where the wires on the circus wire artists mount their wires on their harness so they can 'fly' horizontally 
That is about navel hieght so TomA is probably about right.

Rob


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Yup. Wiry gymnasts, especially young ones, have a Cg in the gut, around waist level. That's with legs straight and arms extended, though.

Bring the knees up into a seated position, and the Cg moves up and forward. Rotate that seated figure backwards into semi-reclinement, as riding in a sportscar, and then extend the arms forward, and for some body types the Cg might actually move to a point outside the body, a little above the belly.

For an ultralight airplane, these subtleties may be important, but for most of our purposes, calling the navel the Cg is sufficient...

TomA


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've just got my front suspension components.

The plan was to to use MG Midget kingpins and hubs but I found a full front axle from an MGB for less then the cost of a set of recon king pins. 50 mile drive to get it but as it turned out it was an even better bargain then I thought.

The whole thing has already been the subject of a full rebuild. The rubber bushes are new, all the split pins and tab washers are new, many new bolts, new springs and recon dampers, kingpins are recon, discs are new with only surface rust, calipers look recon with new pads, flexibles and copper pipes and I think even the hubs are new, apart from some surface rust they are unworn.
Even the grease was clean!

I have jet washed it now so I will strip it apart anyway, partly to make sure there is no water inside from the jetwash and also because I don't need the subframe, lever arm dampers, springs, antiroll bar and probably the steering rack so the heavy bits can stay outside. It will also be easier to move in bits.

The left overs can be sold on when I am done measuring them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Awesome find Woodyr! That's the way to go. You can keep your focus on developing the entire vehicle instead of getting too absorbed in a complete scratch-built suspension setup. I also find it interesting that you have all this MG stuff in the foundation of your trike. Considering that you really wanted an MG when you purchased the MR2, and the fact that you really love reverse trikes, this is turning out to be the ultimate Woodster!


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Woody,

Why is it necessary for you to fit the Midget wheels over the MGB brakes, apart from the fact that you already have Midget wheels? You can list the Midget wheels on eBay. There must be a ton of MG enthusiasts in the UK. 

Personally, I don't know if there's enough clearance between the caliper and rim. I've got Midget spindles and disc brakes on my Metropolitan. The radius from the center of the spindle to the outside of the caliper is very close to 5". That doesn't seem to be the critcal measurement, as there seems to be at least another inch of clearance radially with a 13" rim. What is the caliper-to-spindle radius on the "B"? I think the critical measurement is the backspacing of the wheel. I've got disc wheels, and it's a pretty snug fit from the face of the caliper to the back of the rim center plate. You may have more clearance with wire wheels, though. 

The other thing I'd be measuring is the splined adaptors to make sure they're compatible from one model to the other. If it comes to be that you have to use the "B" wheels, I don't think you'll pay too great a penalty aerodynamically or weight-wise. Finding really skinny 14" tires at a reasonable price might be the hardest part. I've got some 4" wide, 14" Morris Minor wheels I'm trying to find radials for, and it ain't easy! 

Good luck!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I wanted to use Midget wheels because they are 13"x4" instead of 14"x 4 1/2" - 5 1/2". also they all use the same spline and fitting with the only difference being in the MGA splined hub on the axle having a different offset to those that followed.

It would let me find a smaller tyre to keep the big rear, small front look. If I went for 14" then I might as well go to 15" and have the same size wheel all round.

Anoither possiblity is to get an old cruddy pair of wheels and have then rebuilt with motorbike rims on to have much narrower and smaller tyres on the same hub.
I know I could, then, have gone for a pir of motor bike wheels for the front but I want to use the octagonal spinner nuts and have my Unicorn logo engraved in the middle and then rechrome them.

Bad photos taken in the dark as I just took the axle apart after dinner tonight.

















It came apart so easily as all but one set of bolts were greased and clean. The awkward bolt was the one holding the lever arm damper to the top of the kingpin. I will cut the bolt off as I won't be using the damper, the bolt should be replacable anyway.

All these MG bits really is making me happy, Todd, even my Dad commented the same as you about it.
I might even look into MG instruments for that same look as the retro meters I want.

As an aside, the MR2 may not be completely dead. I have been pondering getting an ordinary run of the mill 9" motor onto it, building a pair of Open Revolt controllers and having one in the MR2 and one for the trike. The MR2 can then be sold on with, maybe, a 72v second hand LA pack as a starter vehicle to someone else.
I am being inspired by some of the ordinary every day cars that people here are just putting together and using in less time then it takes some of us to design an ideal solution.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...All these MG bits really is making me happy, Todd, even my Dad commented the same as you about it.
> I might even look into MG instruments for that same look as the retro meters I want...


I like that idea. Are you just going for enough MG DNA to give it the family feel, or going for a total fishguts style "the way they would have built one" approach? Most attempts at that end in disaster, but fishguts managed to pull off a perfect reverse trike Bug. The Fieros I've seen that were converted to conventional trikes usually left a lot to be desired.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I like that idea. Are you just going for enough MG DNA to give it the family feel, or going for a total fishguts style "the way they would have built one" approach? Most attempts at that end in disaster, but fishguts managed to pull off a perfect reverse trike Bug. The Fieros I've seen that were converted to conventional trikes usually left a lot to be desired.


It is more a case of seeing what grows out of the petri dish at the moment.
The MG parts are mainly for the availability and the general look and feel of something that could have been from the past but is modern, much like Morgan Cars are.
I am still aiming for that 1930's Art Deco streamliner type of feel to it though.

I found these wire wheels on Ebay today.
19" and skinny! Wouldn't that have the right look!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It is more a case of seeing what grows out of the petri dish at the moment...


I like that too. Sounds like fun. My projects are always so restricted, and the fun petri dish stuff ends up getting cut from the program. This will be fun to watch happen.





Woodsmith said:


> ...I found these wire wheels on Ebay today.
> 19" and skinny! Wouldn't that have the right look!


 I love those!


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Woody,

Are those 19 inchers from a TC? If so, are the hubs also compatible? Those would look great on your trike.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> It is more a case of seeing what grows out of the petri dish at the moment.
> The MG parts are mainly for the availability and the general look and feel of something that could have been from the past but is modern, much like Morgan Cars are.
> I am still aiming for that 1930's Art Deco streamliner type of feel to it though.
> 
> ...


I love those wheels, I don't know what effect they would have on your COG and steering angle calcs. but just think what they would look like paired up with a good restored version of something like this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Radiator-shell-...83228863?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I love those!





electromet said:


> Woody,
> 
> Are those 19 inchers from a TC? If so, are the hubs also compatible? Those would look great on your trike.


Is it worth a chance? Short auction time left.



Jimdear2 said:


> I love those wheels, I don't know what effect they would have on your COG and steering angle calcs. but just think what they would look like paired up with a good restored version of something like this.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Radiator-shell-...83228863?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM


They are great looking wheels, probably no chance of roll over given there is probably so little grip from those tyres!

I've no idea what they are from and neither has he seller. They are also 200 miles away so a bit too far to take a hub down to try.

Jim, I used to have an MG YB with that same grille. It was a lovely car, 1953, built in jacking system, rear window roller blind, leather seats and lots of walnut veneer inside. All the instruments were octagonal, as were the switch knobs. I had to sell it when I moved up to Manchester.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I got the parking brake caliper today.









I will need to make up a bracket to hold the caliper so it can slide and also extend the lever to make it useable.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

I wish I had been watching your thread more closely, I would have advised you to buy a handbrake caliper like mine from Hi-Spec. It's so beautiful I have an emotional attatchment to it! (and only £65). As for your wheels I think they look great and am told that car tyres have a lower rolling resistance than motorcycle tyres, which can only help.

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Andrew.

I couldn't get those big 19" wires, the bidding went too high for a 200 mile drive without know if they would fit.
I'm now bidding on some standard 14" wires.

I didn't know car tyres were lower rolling resistance. Hmmm, maybe I will look towards changing the rear one at some point.

I had thought about asking you where to get the brake caliper from but this appeared and it was only £25 delivered. The rest I can work on. How dofficult can it be?

The down side to using MG wheels and hubs is the weight. I iwll need to find a lot of weight saving from somewhere and design the weight as low as possible.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've just been watching Jay Leno's Morgan three wheeler video.

It is really the sort of feel I want in many ways.

It got me wondering though, this 'honey seat' thing.
The set up has always been with me in the middle of the car for balance. I didn't want to have two side by side seats due to having 85kg all on one side for 99% of the driving.
But seeing the width of the Morgan with Jay Leno in it made me wonder.

How about a bench seat that is about 28"-30" wide where I can sit in the middle when I am on my own but shuffle sideways a little for a passenger to 'squeeze' in close?
The seat belts can be sorted out to work. Pedals in a narrow footwell can be ok for centre or offside seating and the steering column top mounting bracket could be made to move, and lock, sideways, no different to any adjustable column but just with an extra dimension.

It would mean that the weight distribution won't change too much and the height of the CoG will stay low.

I'd need to think about the gear shift and parking brake lever to make sure they don't become passenger operated though.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Better yet,you can build the body wider to place a long row of LiFePo batteries from front to rear in the right side of the cockpit.You could then place a slightly higher passenger seat on top of the batteries for the occasional passenger. 
Here is a Morgan Style kit from the UK.
The last two are Pembleton kits , are very inexpensive kits and very easy to build.They are using Motoguzzi engines and Citroen suspensions.
The first few Morgans are peddle cars.Enjoy!
Regards,
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the idea, Sunworksco, and I love Morgans.
I will need to play with the layout some more to see how best to do it.

Part of the reason for the 1+1 layout is to keep a narrow, and hence small, frontal area when it is only me in the trike.
It would mean that a second seat needs to be out of the way and incorporated into the luggage space.
Side by side and keeping it narow would make it very snug indeed, maybe that is not a bad thing depending on the passenger.

Anyway, I have been taking off parts from the MR2 to sell and decided to remove the seats while I was at it.









Maybe not practial due to the weight and not being waterproof but if I had weather proofing then maybe it is worth considering. The rear seat folds forward and with the headrest removed is then no higher then the driver's seat.
They are just over 500mm wide so side by side would be quite wide. I could probaby get away with a bench seat at 800mm wide for a two seater.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

I like it Woody. Reminds me of the 'King and Queen' seating on the '70s choppers.
Keeping your vehicle frontal area to a minimum will add significantly to your range.
I like the tandem configuration......looks good.

Eric


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

esoneson said:


> I like it Woody. Reminds me of the 'King and Queen' seating on the '70s choppers.
> Keeping your vehicle frontal area to a minimum will add significantly to your range.
> I like the tandem configuration......looks good.
> 
> Eric


Cheers, Eric.
I do like that layout.

Another option is to have a narrow bench seat like the Morgans had.
I was figuring that for good weight distribution I could drive solo sitting in the middle of the bench but when I have a passenger I could move the steering wheel sideways to the right with the same sort of adjuster that lets you change the height of the the wheel. I could use the MR2 column and flip it on its side to do that.
The pedals could be half way over to the right so that it is a compromise position in either middle or right seating.

In reality I may just mould two seat shapes in plywood and then use a little closed cell foam and waterproof vinyl covers. The passenger seat back could also be the luggage lid when folded.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers, Eric.
> I do like that layout.


Woody,

I just thought of an alternate seating pattern that woud be a compramise of all of the ones you looked at.

Staggered seating. The passengers thighs/knees would be beside your back. Draw it out, it would be shorter then inline seating and narrower then side by side seating. 

You would be sitting just right of center and more to the front. Might look a bit weird though. I'm not enough of an artist to sketch it out to see how it would look.

Might be fun to make a bench seat like that , you could make the passengers seat bottom flip forward into an arm rest so you could cop a mean lean.

Fun thoughts,
Jim


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Staggered seating. The passengers thighs/knees would be beside your back. Draw it out, it would be shorter then inline seating and narrower then side by side seating.


This was standard practice in the last days of "riding mechanics" from the mid 1920s into the late 1930s. It was an innovation compared to the earlier true side-by-side arrangement, and makes for a very compact cockpit. Google Indy riding mechanic images, or the Fiat Mephistopheles, often called the greatest car of that era. 

Staggered seating is a good choice in a narrow chassis, particarly where the rear seat can be integrated into the monocoque and provide structural strength, while the front can still be on tracks and adjustable. The stagger doesn't need to be extreme to narrow the cockpit, maybe 8-10 inches would be plenty depending on the thickness of the seat backs, but still allow both people to move around in comfort.

If you are going to make your own seats, be sure to check out the articles by Dennis Wolter of AirMod talking about how to do it for light aircraft- he's the master, and actually there are many more articles about lots of fabricating that are well worth the effort to read: http://www.airmod.com/articles/index.htm. I have a 50+ Mb MP3 of Dennis at Oshkosh talking about aircraft seat design, if anyone is so interested.

The staggered seating is just a great idea; and I'm really surprised it is so rare, even among dream cars and design contests. I have three- and five- seat designs that are based on it. The last car, and maybe even the _only_ production road car, to use this layout was the McLaren F1 three-seater from 10 years ago.

TomA


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

TomA said:


> ...The staggered seating is just a great idea; and I'm really surprised it is so rare, even among dream cars and design contests. I have three- and five- seat designs that are based on it. The last car, and maybe even the _only_ production road car, to use this layout was the McLaren F1 three-seater from 10 years ago.
> 
> TomA


I agree. I have a few street rod designs that use the McLaren style arrangment - inspired by that car. I decided to go conventional side-by-side with the Inhaler, but there was a part of me that really wanted to experience the central driving position. It should feel like driving a vintage GP car in a street rod.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I might try the staggered seating and see if it saves anything over a cosy bench seat.

I guess it depends on how close I want to get too my passenger.
I can check out how comfortable knees are as an arm rest.
One advantage is that the passenger leg room is adjacent to the driver's seat and not behind it, that means I don't need to encroach into the motor space where I would prefer to put the controller.

One of the ideas with the 1+1 seating was to set the drivers seat to fit me only but have it become an integral part of the structure. The seat back would be like a firewall. I could lower that and have the bracing at passenger seat squab height. There still wouldn't be ant seat adjustment though as there wasn't any requirement to have anyone else drive it, but I suppose I shouldn't be selfish.



I played around with some sketches based on Tom's earlier link to trike stability. The system is based on drawing a cone at the CoG to see if it lies within the triangle formed by the wheel contact points.
If I use the MGB suspension in its standard track width of 1250mm I could have my CoG up to 400mm above ground level at 1g before tipping. That is pretty good as I am still working at around 250mm and it allows me to keep the track width lower and not mess with the MG geometry too much.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Another thought on the seat layout, Passenger lower and in front of you, almost or infact between the front wheels. Low seating for yourself is all fine and dandy, but you do want to be high enough to see and be seen. 

Safety first.

Kind of a reversed rumble seat/luggage compartment. Front shocks with air bags would compensate for height change,

More thoughtful thought,
Jim

Jim


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Carver used 'straddled' seating. Rear passenger straddles front passenger.
A little tight, but works.














Woodsmith said:


> I might try the staggered seating and see if it saves anything over a cosy bench seat.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

More scary for the passenger too, Jim!

I have pedalled a bike like that, me at the back and a wheel chair at the front.
I don't think I could do that to a passenger though. I get annoyed enough when parents, with a pushchair or pram, cross the road between parked cars by pushing the baby into the road and then looking around the parked cars to see if anything is coming.
I saw a car hit one of those many years ago. Fortunately the kid was on a leash and the buggy was full of shopping.

I will play with the idea a bit though.
Another option would be back to back seating, me facing front obviously.


I picked up four MGB wire wheels today. The chap also gave me two rim tapes and two inner tubes and also a spare wheel centre he had lying around. The wheels were a bit rusty but so cheap that they would do for setting up if nothing else. While I was out I also picked up two part worn 155 65 14 tyres so that I could sort out clearances and heights. I think they are the smallest that will fit unless I decide on re-lacing some motor bike rims and fitting skinny tyres later. 
I wire brushed the rims and selected the best two for use, the other two may be re-laced or sold on.








(That little compressor is a wonderful tool. Quieter then my fridge and can fill one of those tyres to 30psi in less then a minute.)

I fitted the tyres myself, not too difficult. Had to rob two valves from my bike to keep air in the tubes though.

I have jet washed the rims and the suspension subframe so I can set everything up for size.
I may need to make some more space in the workshop though, this is a bit bigger then the tractor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have rigged up the front suspension loosely to see what fits where and how the trike lays out.
I am working on a 2500mm wheel base.

























I only just have enough space in the workshop for it!
I will need to rework things so that I can loose the big subframe. I will probably use the dimensions of the mounts to make locations points on the chassis frame directly.

I think I will need to look at the ground clearance too as at 2500mm I will need more clearance to get around speed bumps. 

From the driving seat those small front tyres look really tall and far apart.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I will probably use the dimensions of the mounts to make locations points on the chassis frame directly...


You could also build a fixture off the subframe that would let you build as many chassis as you want. Put the Woodster MGR in production man!  That's the long-range plan for the Inhaler's chassis, but I have no desire to build them. I'll sub that part out...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

lol!

I've no plans, long range or otherwise, to make anymore trikes like this. If I do another it will be significantly different again.

It hasn't gone unnoticed at my end that my earlier comments about weight watching has slipped a bit. Those wire wheels are heavy!

I am going to need a serious diet.

I have been looking at how other trikes look and I quite like the Sub3.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think that passenger seat is too high and the driver's seat too low.

I have also realised that with a steering wheel and bodywork I won't be able to get out.

I tried the staggered layout and at best I save 8" length but need many more inches in width. I think that if I have a conventional, but narrow, style drivers seat with a 'sit astride' passenger seat behind, still with a back rest, then the passenger's feet can either go forwards on each side of the driver or tuck under in a motorbike pillion type squat. The space under the seat would be the motor.

I am also leaning towards having a bank of 15 x 100ah cells in pods on each side to save squeezing them inside the body. It would mean that I could remove them, change them, increase the pack size....
In terms of frontal area the pods would be behind the front suspension and about the same frontal area.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I think that passenger seat is too high and the driver's seat too low.
> 
> I have also realised that with a steering wheel and bodywork I won't be able to get out....


I really like that setup Woody! It's like an ultra-luxurious, yet still sporty, King-n-Queen arrangement.

You could always use a quick release steering wheel hub.


One of the problems with the petri dish method is projects will start to "grow" away from the desired end goals. It can be a lot of fun, but the most productive approach tends to be starting with a hard plan and weighing every single decision against it. That's what I did with the Inhaler and I am very pleased with how it has developed. My marketing and performance goals took some of the fun out if sometimes, but also set the foundation for a really incredible end result. When I look at the latest renderings, or go out and look at what's currently in the garage, it makes me smile and pushes me forward because those goals are coming to life.

All projects are subject to scope creep, but you want it to balloon in the right places...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I really like that setup Woody! It's like an ultra-luxurious, yet still sporty, King-n-Queen arrangement.
> 
> You could always use a quick release steering wheel hub.


Thanks, it does feel right but needs refinement. The seats won't be the same type either but I think I can work with it.
In some ways it is nice having the passenger behind. Less distraction while driving. I am very much one who will ignore conversation and frantic gesticulating from the passenger when driving the car safely is more important.

The passenger seat will need to be very much a secondary concern to be formed out of the luggage compartment and I think it will be just a flip up lid for a back rest.
Anything to keep weight from increasing.

I thought about the quick release steering wheel but I don't think they are legal on the road here.
I have thought about the whole front end opening forwards, clamshell style, and taking the dash, steering wheel and side panels with it as far as the seat. It could then leave me with a seat in fresh air to step out of.
It does take out some of the scope for a rigid cage or chassis frame though.

I will need to see how high the seat needs to be for me to be able to get out without putting my hands on the ground to easy my egress.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...having the passenger behind. Less distraction while driving...


That depends on what she's doing back there!  Sorry, couldn't resist that one!


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi WoodSmith,
I would consider changing out the front suspension to this type.
Regards,
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sorry Sunworksco, what type?

My plan would be to loose all the heavy components that I can but retain the basics of the geometry for ease.

Upper and lower wishbones will be fabricated and mounts fitted to the chassis or frame when I get that far.

It will be more akin to the work done by British V8.org though not a copy of it.









One advantage of the MGB set up is that the top and bottom of the kingpin is rubber bushed and bolted, that makes the outer end simple and cheap to make. No need for costly joints.
Even the inner ends are bushed and bolted on the lower wishbone and I will use the same method for the upper one with uprated V8 bushings.

However, I am open to any good ideas that I can make and afford and will allow me to retain the wire wheels.

ETA: Ahhh, that type. A modified VW Beetle setup.

Don't worry, I'm not that far away from it and I have plans for the coil over damper to be horizontal too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That depends on what she's doing back there!  Sorry, couldn't resist that one!


I wonder how good a job the balancing shop does?

Anyway, who's to say I won't just be getting another Rottie to share the trike with?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Wouldn't this make a great body for the trike?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290419935308&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Check the measurements, it would be just the right size.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Sorry Sunworksco, what type?
> 
> My plan would be to loose all the heavy components that I can but retain the basics of the geometry for ease.
> 
> ...


I have had MG cars all of my life and now own a 1975 XJC6 Jaguar.
So I know and love British cars.My first cars were a Morris Minor Traveler and Coupe.
I would suggest a Palatov suspension.
You could use a wider chassis and situate the battery pack parallel to your seat but use a Ducati 1098 rear suspension.
Palatov can build the front drive hubs with Ducati 1098 pin-drive center-lock axles.
The motor can be located just behind the front left side wish-bones with a Kevlar belt drive.
Regards,
John


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice suspension, John, but it takes me away from the parts I have accumulated to get the look I am after.

The Ducatti rear wheel is also a larger rim but smaller diameter then the set up I have chosen so I would probably have clearence problems.

I am, for the time being, going to carry on with the parts I have and develop the other design contraints around what I have until such time that I have to make more fundamental changes.

I am also working to a tight budget and have limited machining facilities so I am trying to avoid costly or complex work where I can.

I must admit that I am looking more and more at the hotrod type of look and have been collecting images to consider.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was planning on getting a decent night's sleep having not had much recently but things will conspire against that happening.

I was pondering the trike layout and the reasons for the build and the things that mattered to me about it. 
I began to revisit each part of the trike again looking at how I would like to build it, all things being equal, possible and still using the parts I have to solve the issues that spring up.

The body is going to be a narrow (cosy) two seat hotrod tub with a narrow nose.
I will predominantly drive it from a central position but can move over a bit to squeeze in a passenger. I can sort out a good fiddle with the seat belts if I use four point harnesses. The steering column can move sideways with me. So far we've covered those options in a round about way.
The main thing is that it will spend 90% of its time at 60-70mph so I could have direct drive geared for this and suffer the losses at slow speed.

The issue comes with the problematic and low ratio drive train and associated bodges.
Easy is a sideways motor and chain/belt drive but that makes using the MGA wire wheel difficult unless I can mount it on a Ducati style single side swing arm. Means buying another set up but can be done and remains an option, cheers Sunworksco.

Using the BMW set up I figured I could lose the gear box altogether and drive the driveshaft directly as the ratios would be ok at [email protected]
The problem is that I would need a lot of torque to remain tractable at low speeds and it throws all the motor weight off to one side. It also rules out using the smaller, but faster spinning Club Car motor from the tractor a it would probably overheat on a 40 minute commute at speed.

An aesthetic solution is a return to the big 12" motor (still grining at Jim's big 13" sitting atop the axle for all to see. ). That would give a bigger problem of offset weight but I could mount it sideways.
The drive could be through a 90deg bevel gear box (thanks to Yabert's bike set up) that drives a short propshaft to the BMW swing arm. A 0.9:1 overdrive will give a comfortable [email protected] safety factor.
That would also allow both ends of the motor to be seen to complete the Art Deco look just behind the 30's style hotrod tub, thanks to Todd for the encouragement to show off.
I can make up the missing CE cover with holes in to match the DE so that both ends look the same.

I had to do a quick sketch before I went back to sleep so I wouldn't forget the details. I'm sure Todd will probably be able to improve it.









I have drawn in some doors with a scalloped profile at the rear edge that continues around the back of the tub. It may nestle around the motor too.
This is pandering to my creature comforts and realising that I couldn't get out of a closed tub with the seating and steering wheel so low down.
I figured I could use the doors from the MR2, with its electric windows and mirrors and central locking and the auto fold flat mirrors gimmick.
The windows would allow me a little relief from wind and weather and maybe I could then have a small rag top as well. I will need to sort out a windscreen to fit though.

Overall, it has the hotrod type feel and small size, is still low down but the 12" motor will allow a little more leaway in CoG. Batteries can be behind the seats and in the nosecone. Charger and controller in the luggage space over the motor.
The weight may be up a bit due to the doors but I could aim for 144v instead of 96v to make up for it.

Off back to bed now.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Looks great, Woody, but...

Seems like a very tight one-seater to me, and really more for a child than a man. You need an anthropometric model of yourself to validate these shapes and rough dimensions. I think you have an extremely short cockpit that isn't going to be easy, or maybe even possible, to get in and out of.

Its all good, I know they're drawings, but making room for the pilot is pretty important...

TomA


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

TomA said:


> Looks great, Woody, but...
> 
> Seems like a very tight one-seater to me, and really more for a child than a man. You need an anthropometric model of yourself to validate these shapes and rough dimensions. I think you have an extremely short cockpit that isn't going to be easy, or maybe even possible, to get in and out of.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've been working on that, getting the proportions right. That's how I figured I would need doors to get in and out of. Without them I would need to lifted out.
The doors in the sketch look shorter then they really are and I will need to do a scale drawing to proportion it correctly. The motor is also a bit too wide to get the drive shaft to mate up to the swing arm so the shaft may end up outboard, or get replaced by a belt drive or I might turn the motor around and drive straight off the shaft.
That may mean a longer chassis or off setting the motor to one side and balancing it with batteries.

I am going to take the 12" motor to a rebuilder today to see if the shaft can be fixed or replaced.
I now have a perfectly concentric coupler for it, turned between centres and it has shown that the shaft itself has also been turn on a skew and off centre.

Of course, I can still use the 9" motor and the size will make the shaft drive a lot easier but that will be a bit like building a hotrod with a 1600cc 4 pot.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't forget about you Woodster. I have just been working so much lately that I haven't been doing much drawing and modeling. You should sort out a few possible wheelbases and start checking your ideas according to a scaled layout drawing. If you give me the wb numbers I can do a couple/few of the side-view templates I use. They're just discs for wheels, with a baseline for the ground, and sometimes I add faint height and ground clearance lines. I work digitally, and can move components around and change the transparency to get a good look at how it all meshes, but you can print them and just draw on them too.

I can also set them up in CAD with the grid pattern in the background. If you want to do it yourself, you mentioned having AutoCad (any version would work for that). You could also use a good old-fashioned caliper, straight edges, and pencil, on graph paper.

I'm stressing the side-view because it really makes clear what will actually work. It's too easy to draw things in perspective that just won't work in real life.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Todd, I figured you were busy.

I've been overly busy too and not had much time to do a great deal on the trike recently hence the scattering of ideas every now and again.

I have an old release 14 Autocad and I am going to take a refresher course at college to remind myself how to use it in 3D. In the meantime I have on there a 2D 3rd angle layout of the parts to check proportions. What I don't have a Cad body to fit in the seat.

I still draw by hand, mainly 3rd angle 1/10 scale at the moment but not had much time between a flash of idea and getting it properly drawn out.
The perspective drawing was a quick sketch of the image in my head at the time before it was lost in the storm of thoughts.

I want the 'axle at the very front' look but for balance it may be better further back to prevent it from having too long a wheelbase just for practical as well as handling issues. Maybe I might have time to do a bit more with it tonight before I am busy again for the next couple of weeks.


Just about to go and get a MIG welder and then I will take the 12" to the motor shop to price up a repair. I hope this welder is good, supposedly complete with large gas bottle and wire so ready to work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have my new toy!

























It is so good to get the whole set up, only £160. Much better then spending more on a little DIY set up with a plastic flow gauge and a minibottle of gas.
This even has a 5kg reel of wire in it and the gas bottle is full.
I will get it in the workshop this evening and have a play.

The company selling it is a trike builder making BMW trikes for wheelchair users. Another sad local loss as they are closing down. The parent company is moving all its manufacturing to the USA so another load of people out of work and an end to their youth training scheme.


My 12" motor is also at the motor rebuilders. Their machinist is away this week so I will pop back next week to see what it will cost to fix.

In the mean time I will keep designing and work out if I am going for:
A transverse motor, bevel gearbox and shaft drive, 
A longitudinal motor and shaft drive (either in front or behind the seats).
Or a transverse motor and belt drive.

With the belt drive option I will have two belts, one from the motor to the swing arm pivot and then one from there to the rear wheel.
The reason for this is that firstly it solves the problem of belt tension when the swing arm is swinging and secondly it allows me to have the primary belt further outboard then the secondary belt to allow for the motor being lots wider then the rear wheel.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm glad that all of the design ideas are still on the table,,, I've been hoping for a modified TD style, (re: fishguts) to accompany those spoked wheels with that 12" nestled in the bottom, center of the grill.
'Formed wooden body and fenders,, of course,,,,


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

BSA made some cool looking trikes!
Regards,
John


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Nice little mig. I've only got one of the "toy" ones you mentioned and it's almost useless! I'm used to working with a proper one, so find the toys to be underpowered, the wire sticks like crazy and the gas bottles last five minutes! Next time I'm in Ireland I may pick up my old one from a friend I lent it to. Then I could build an oil rig! Oops! Did I say the "O" word? 

It's looking like I'm going to take the van to Ireland this Christmas.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm trying not to let my trike become a 'designed by committee' build.
There are so many good ideas and inspirations for what it could be that I must stay on track and keep my eye on my goal. It was all going well until someone mentioned the need for a 'honey seat'!

I want to play with the welder but I haven't any time at all for the next week or two now. I did manage to squirt a couple of inches of weld bead to make sure it works. Such a smooth action and feed compared to the cheap 'toy' type.
I will need to get a second pair of lower wishbone arms to modify for the front suspension and then get a coil over damper to work around to links and cranks. I don't even know what spring rate to use yet so daren't spend on one yet.

Still trying to win the bidding on a rear splined hub that is affordable. No luck there yet.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...It was all going well until someone mentioned the need for a 'honey seat'!...




Glad I could help!  I'm just forwarding all the creative energy that was "donated" over the course of my 60-something page long thread. I think a certain woodworker offered quite a few too...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey Todd, I only wish there was a honey to make the seat worth all the extra design effort.

I wanted a single seater but I guess something really narrow, like that red BSA Sunworksco posted but still two seats would have to do.

I am going to have to pull the doors off the MR2 and set up a rig to see if they would work in reality.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I have my new toy!
> It is so good to get the whole set up, only £160. Much better then spending more on a little DIY set up with a plastic flow gauge and a minibottle of gas.
> This even has a 5kg reel of wire in it and the gas bottle is full.
> I will get it in the workshop this evening and have a play.


Sweeeeet. 
You are going to love it. I have one similar, not commercial by any means (it came from one of the big box stores) but good enough for what I do. I've built three and a half tractors from the ground up and although my welds are ugly the equipment makes it easy to get penitration. Never had a weld break, do get lots of nasty comments though.

I have been using my freind Mikes big commercial grade Miller lately. That's a step up, like from the toys you talk about to what you have. My welds are even starting to look good using that equippment.



Woodsmith said:


> The company selling it is a trike builder making BMW trikes for wheelchair users. Another sad local loss as they are closing down. The parent company is moving all its manufacturing to the USA so another load of people out of work and an end to their youth training scheme.


Sorry to see it leaving GB but glad it is comming to the States. Thats much better then what has been happening over here. Every thing either going to 3rd world or China 



Woodsmith said:


> My 12" motor is also at the motor rebuilders. Their machinist is away this week so I will pop back next week to see what it will cost to fix.


Sorry to see that the machine work you had done at the collage turned out so poorly. For a while there it looked like you might have a real good source for machine work.

Hope fixing it up doesn't end up costing an arm and a leg.



Woodsmith said:


> In the mean time I will keep designing and work out if I am going for:
> A transverse motor, bevel gearbox and shaft drive,
> A longitudinal motor and shaft drive (either in front or behind the seats).
> Or a transverse motor and belt drive.
> ...


One thing I like apout the motor in the rear is it places you much further forward. I don't know about balance but it just looks more right. Plus the further forward you are the wider the seating area can be without upseting the overall look.

I am from the "if it looks right it probably is" school of engineering. So take my suggestions with that in mind.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Sorry to see that the machine work you had done at the collage turned out so poorly. For a while there it looked like you might have a real good source for machine work.
> 
> Hope fixing it up doesn't end up costing an arm and a leg.


I figure that as I have developed an attachment to that motor now I could justify spending the same as I would if I had to scrap it and replace it.

Trying not to let it sour relations though so I'll not bother making a fuss about it. I might want to borrow the use of a machine at some point.



Jimdear2 said:


> One thing I like about the motor in the rear is it places you much further forward. I don't know about balance but it just looks more right. Plus the further forward you are the wider the seating area can be without upseting the overall look.
> 
> I am from the "if it looks right it probably is" school of engineering. So take my suggestions with that in mind.


I think were were schoolled at the same place.

Further forward will also make visibilty in traffic better and move the CoG closer to the front axle too and allow for that wider body without making it look 'lardy' around the rear wheel.
I'd hate for it to look like a 'muffin top' from behind.

(Image removed by Woodsmith to save use of mind bleach)


I still want the long nose though so I will need to be careful with proportions and profile to avoid the need for a later rhinoplasty.


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## rillip3 (Jun 19, 2009)

ok that's just nasty


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

[quote
(Image removed by Woodsmith to save use of mind bleach)


[/quote]

ROFL!!! How attractive that is!


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

electromet said:


> > (Image removed by Woodsmith to save use of mind bleach)
> 
> 
> ROFL!!! How attractive that is!


WOW It's actually the 1st time of my life I see someone with 2 ass


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL

You can see why I am trying to avoid 'lardy' with a two seater over a single rear wheel.


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

AHAH In this case just use a bicycle seat as a second passanger LOL


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is my latest purchase.
A Honda VFR750F swing arm for £25.









It was so cheap and I got the caliper, pedal and spring damper thrown in.
I figured that it gives me the 'poor man's' Ducati set up that I can use for a chain or belt drive with the transverse motor.
The wheel studs are 100mm pcd, a nice common size so I should be able to fit the splined hub easily. There is even plenty of room for the wheel and tyre to fit in.

I now need to learn my way around it and give it a clean, as soon as I have some time.


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## Pirape (Feb 26, 2009)

Awesome! keep them posted!

Why don you use the chain system?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Pirape said:


> Awesome! keep them posted!
> 
> Why don you use the chain system?


I could use the chain, it would be a lot cheaper, but I would like to have the clean and quiet belt as an option.
It would all depend on finding the right belt and pulley set up for not too much money.

Because the motor is too wide to make it line up with just two pulleys and a long belt I am thinking of using a jack shaft and having two belts and four pulleys. Makes it more costly but might also allow me to get the ratio right with the smaller range of tooth options with belt pulleys.
Still comes down to cost as either way round I would be looking at two belts or chains and four pulleys or sprockets.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I quickly set up the swingarm to see how it looks.
The wooden mock up is the size of the 12" motor.

























And with sensible head on again.

























Either way I think I would like to use a jackshaft. I am not keen on having a huge difference in length between the chain sprocket and the swingarm pivot.
Awkwardly the chain lies over the swingarm pivot casting so it would be difficult to have a jackshaft on the pivot point. I may look into how far outboard I can move the sprocket on the wheel hub.
It would be the same issue with a belt drive.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Simply great !!! :d
_ am still lurking - but been sooooooooo busy...._


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> _am still lurking - but been sooooooooo busy...._


Same here. No time to do anything fun, except for work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was taking some bits off the MR2 to sell so I thought that I would take the door off and see how it looks on the trike layout.

It's a big door!


















I think it would work as a single seater, I can push the seat back against the motor and have the doors quite close. It would maintain a narrow body and still give me a longish nose cone at the front.

If I used two seats then it would either be very long or very wide as the doors are nearly 8" thick. Even with slim doors it is getting wider then I would like.

I still like the idea of it being a single seater and even had thoughs of having a telescopic chassis that could stretch to offer a passenger set behind but that would make body work difficult.

I will work on the single seat option with the passenger being very low on the priorities. Back to shoving the honey in the trunk!

Ignoring the doors I also thought about sitting next to the motor like with the Sub Trike (but on the right side).








With me sitting on the right I would be able to balance the 12" on the left. The 12" could sit in line with either the BMW or Yamaha final drive bolted to the DE and then a 1:1 chain drive to the rear wheel.

Couldn't do that with the original BMW swingarm as I would have been sitting on the wrong side.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I went to pick up my motor this afternoon, from the motor repair shop.

I didn't ask them to do anything, just to give me an opinion and an estimate.
They reckon that they could easily spend £450+ on just trying to set the shaft right because there is so little length to work with and nothing straight to put on the lathe.
Their available option would be to weld a stump on the end of the shaft, estimate a new centre and then set it up for machining true before then making a proper weld on shaft, welding it on and truing up again. Then it would need to be balanced. 
The price doesn't even include any other remedial work that the motor might need to the comm and brushes.

Their sugesstion is that if I really want to use the motor, or any other big motor, then I should build my trike and run it, as soon as it is safe, on the road and see what the motor does.
If it performs well but vibrates a lot then it would be worth investing in a motor rebuild. If it doesn't perform then I should find another motor.
Basically they don't have the experience to say that it would be good for anything other then its original milkfloat role so I should 'test rig' it on the trike and see, based on my own criteria, what its performance is like.

Oh well. I will lug it back down to the basement later and have a play.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't know what you have inside the motor for clearance, but what about just lopping off the damaged end, cutting a keyway in the shaft, and then machining a new press-fit end. It would be a larger diameter, to fit over the original shaft, but it may be possible to increase the diameter of the bearing support in the DE head to compensate.

By cutting the end completely off you eliminate all the damage and end up with a two-piece, press-fit, shaft. With a good dial indicator, and enough patience, you may even be able to do this yourself.

Just a thought...


_Edit_ - I forgot to mention, those doors look heavy. Just thinking about your original goal of building a featherweight trike...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

There isn't a lot of shaft left to play with.








That is all there is. 
The small part is 31mm OD diameter with three half threads in it.
The large diameter part is the shoulder of the bearing and the coupler butts up against.

This is the coupler part fitted.








The coupler has a 31mm ID with three half threads in it for location. It also has the 50mm OD diameter part for the large DE bearing to sit on. When it is pressed all the way home with the DE cap in place it traps the bearing and holds the armature in its axial location.

It then looks like this.










I could cut a keyway into the 31mm OD shaft and press on a 50mm OD shaft so that the only location is the press fit but the problem is that the 31mm shaft seems to be not concentric to the axis of the armature and also not aligned to the axis.
If I pressed on a shaft it would wobble.

Maybe if I had a 55mm OD it could be assembled and then turned down to 50mm It would still be a complicated set up on a lathe bearing in mind that there is nothing to align its axis to and it weighs around 40kg and would be some 600mm long with a 270mm diameter fan.

I will think about the possibilities around that.


Don't worry about the doors, I won't use them, they weigh at least 30kg each. I might use the mirrors maybe.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Do you have a pic of the shaft and armature (in its current state) out of the motor?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That top photo is the shaft out of the motor. The black part behind it is the fan.

This is a before photo.








After









Here's a photo of it in its original state showing the rest of the armature.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I see now. I didn't realize that was the fan. I guess I was thinking it was the DE head. What about removing the fan and using that surface to help repair the shaft? You can just run an external blower.

Seems like a good machinist would be able to chuck that whole thing up, and use a steady rest to get it centered with a dial indicator on the arm. From there it's just a matter of machining a correct center in the end, and then machining the end true.

Or am I over-simplifying this?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The fan could be a pain to remove, but possible. The shoulder that the bearing backs up onto is also a collar shrink fitted to the original 2" diameter part of the shaft. the collar would need to be cut off and then the fan removed.

A good machinist could do the work but that is where the motor shop told me the bulk of the cost will come from, a good machinist setting it up properly and finding something to make a true centre from.

In the meantime I have found a motor on Ebay and have posted in the forklift motor thread for advice. It might be a good option, smaller and faster.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have put the 12" back together again and introduced it to the Honda swingarm.

A little stretching of the imagination may yield a possible solution without a jack shaft.

Because the motor is so long and the swing arm is so narrow I was thinking I would use a jackshaft to off set two sets of chains (or belts) to align the drive train.
However, if I push the motor to one side a little so the CoG was in the center line to the wheel the drive end of the motor is closer to the centre line too.
If I move the swing arm sprocket outboard a little, say 2 1/2", then I can line it up to the motor DE.

















Using one long chain (or belt) would make the transmission much easier but due to the centres of the swing arm being 560mm and the centres of the sprockets being 760mm I would have a lot of slack due to suspension movement.

I could use a pair of tensioning sprockets on a little swing arm to take up tension and move with the changing drive side as it overruns or reverses.

Alternatively one big oversize tensioning sprocket set at the swing arm pivot axis would serve the same purpose with the chain running over and back under it.

Oh, a seat cushion on the motor would make a neat 'honey seat'!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Here is the answer to all of your problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9BqXk7KwT8&NR=1

A three wheeler AND a tractor. 

Just get rid of that nasty old ICE and mount your 12 inch. Plenty of room for any type of motor drive hook up. No need for high rpm. Add a couple of batteries and off you go. Also nice that you would only need parking space for one vehicle. Plenty of room for a honey seat too.

Going to work might be a bit slow.

Then you could be a Happy Woodworker on your Happy Farmer.

Be well,
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Here is the answer to all of your problems.
> 
> ...


LOL!
Slow wouldn't be close. My commute would take 3 hours or more each way!

Hope things are ok with you Jim, I'll be in touch soon.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...My commute would take 3 hours or more each way!...


Darn microwave generation. Back in my day, we had to walk 50 miles to work, through blizzards, with 20ft tall snow drifts. It took two weeks to get to work. We would work for a month straight, walk home, eat, sleep, and head back. Young whippersnappers!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Darn microwave generation. Back in my day, we had to walk 50 miles to work, through blizzards, with 20ft tall snow drifts. It took two weeks to get to work. We would work for a month straight, walk home, eat, sleep, and head back. Young whippersnappers!


Ah yes, the Good Olde Days, when men were men and women liked it that way.

Why I 'member back in 98 when I . . .


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Darn microwave generation. Back in my day, we had to walk 50 miles to work, through blizzards, with 20ft tall snow drifts. It took two weeks to get to work. We would work for a month straight, walk home, eat, sleep, and head back. Young whippersnappers!


We forgot to mention it WAS uphill both ways


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Jimdear2 said:


> Why I 'member back in 98 when I . . .


What are all these youngsters doing here


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

DawidvC said:


> What are all these youngsters doing here


That may have been 1898?





Anyway, I'm the one who still cuts 3/8" plate steel with a hacksaw and makes keyways with a hammer and chisel. None of this modern power tool nonsense.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

In between bouts of debilitating headaches today I managed to get an hour or so in the workshop.

I dismantled the MGB suspension and began to work on making new upper wishbones. I bought a set of new lower wishbones to work from and some new rubber bushes. Even though the bushes looked fairly recent I decided to change them anyway as they are cheap.

The wishbones will need to be shortened by 95mm to match the arms on the lever arm dampers and I plan to cut and reshape the ends of the arms rather then cutting and welding it back together. I have made a few marks on the metal but that is about as much as I managed today. No photos either I'm afraid. I will get some when I am cutting and welding metal.

I am looking at making up a couple of chassis rails soon too. That will give me something to begin hanging the suspension onto and also locating the motor and the rear swingarm.
I might get some 80x40x2mm box section to work from.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Time to update the thread with all the stuff that I have posted in the motors section.

Lots of photos and hopefully not too many words.

I picked up a forklift motor and axle from an old Still forklift.
























































It was a little heavy to say the least and originally bought as a 13" but it turned out to be only 11". As such I picked up the wheels and a steering pump motor as well. I will be able to make a resonable amount back in scrap value.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

In order to get a usable motor from it I needed to figure out how to split the motor from the axle.

The motor DE is part of the gearcase on the axle and so it wouldn't be straight forward.

















I decided to remove the motor frame and armature leacing the DE intact with the gearcase.









The shaft is a simple splined shaft but there is no bearing location as the bearings are in the gearcase.









As Jimdear2 put it, I seem to have a giant golf buggy motor!

My intention was to make a new DE cap with aluminium plate but I needed to see inside the gear case to determine if there was anything useable and to work out the gear ratio, if possible, to help guesstimate the motor speed.
I removed the axle tube first.

















I then opened the gear case.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The primary gear pinion if hollow and is located by two sets of taper roller bearings.
I figured that I could use that if not the casing or steel DE cap and housing. So I removed the pinion and pulled the taper roller bearing off.
That left me with a usable sleeve with sized bearing surfaces to take 6308 2RS bearings.

















Although the motor doesn't have a fan as such it does have holes through the armature core. That makes it an air cooled armature.









The CE end is open to allow airflow.









All this allows me to make an aluminium DE cap that will, hopefully, have the Art Deco look of the 12" motor that I like.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love that gear! That's what I had hoped to find from an old Hyster lift for my GE motor, but I found the PTO disc first. How tight is the fit on the splined shaft? Mine is a typical clutch style slip-fit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I love that gear! That's what I had hoped to find from an old Hyster lift for my GE motor, but I found the PTO disc first. How tight is the fit on the splined shaft? Mine is a typical clutch style slip-fit.


This is also a slip fit.

I may have to have bearing at both ends of the pinion but not if I can avoid it.
It could end up being a giant version of the golf buggy motor on the tractor!









Maybe a double row bearing would be an option to avoid that.

The other option is to cut off the plain bearing part and use it as a sleeve only and then fit a taper lock to the protruding splines.
Problem there is that there will not be much shaft protruding.

I could also anneal and machine off the gear teeth and then heat treat the sleeve. That would shrink it a bit and make it a more snug fit.

Ultimately I need to have a chain sprocket on there as close to the DE as possible.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I may have to have bearing at both ends of the pinion...
> 
> ...I could also anneal and machine off the gear teeth and then heat treat the sleeve. That would shrink it a bit and make it a more snug fit...


I like those two options combined. A DE cut from that 19mm plate you have, with the inner bearing race machined in it, cooling ports, and a bolt on outer bearing carrier could be ultra strong and purty as well.

I have never been one to do things the easy way though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

'Easy' is for those who have enough money to buy exactly what is needed. The rest of us make do with a little extra effort.


I will play around with some options and see. I will also need to find a way, or place, to anneal and then reheat treat the sleeve.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Before you go into making a new DE bell take a look at the existing bell. Could you go into it with a mill and chop off all of the excess metal and end up with a pretty nice piece. I did that with the 13 and got rid of a lot of metal, we ended up with a pretty nice looking DE bell.

Look at it just like seeing the sculpture inside a piece of wood. 

It looks like that existing taper bearing and seal are where the preload on the shaft was set. Remove that plate, bearing race and seal and look to see if a double row bearing couldn't be placed there so that it overlaps the seal shoulder and the inner bearing race seat you would want a very slight gap between them. They seal shoulder and the bearing seat on the drive gear look, from the photo, to be the same diameter. Then I noticed the motor shaft is driilled and tapped. A tension bolt and washer would, in effect load up the double row bearing and hold everything true.

Otherwise I think that a giant version of your tractor end DE bell would be your best bet to make a strong accurate piece.

I would still rather see you use the original end if possible though.

Just my thoughts.

As far as a nice art deco cover, that's something you can make later, A pretty cover

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Unfortunately, Jim, the section of the DE with the 5 bolt holes in is dished like a car wheel. 
The part with the holes in would project too far out to allow a sprocket to fit close to the motor but cutting them off would result in the centre of the casting being 3/4 detached from the rim.

Besides, making things is even more fun then taking things apart.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Unfortunately, Jim, the section of the DE with the 5 bolt holes in is dished like a car wheel.
> The part with the holes in would project too far out to allow a sprocket to fit close to the motor but cutting them off would result in the centre of the casting being 3/4 detached from the rim.


Ratz, I had hope you would have soime luck. Couldn't really tell from the photos. At least the drive gear looks like it will be useable. I had hoped that in the end you could more of the gear reduction unit. Now it looks like you are going to need to make something to get to that 8 to 10 to 1 total reduction, motor to rear wheel.

Did you get a chance to run the motor or are you taking it on faith? Did you confirm that the motor was originally rated for 80 volts?



Woodsmith said:


> Besides, making things is even more fun then taking things apart.


Yeh, we all know how you like to have fun.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> At least the drive gear looks like it will be useable. I had hoped that in the end you could more of the gear reduction unit. Now it looks like you are going to need to make something to get to that 8 to 10 to 1 total reduction, motor to rear wheel.
> 
> Did you get a chance to run the motor or are you taking it on faith? Did you confirm that the motor was originally rated for 80 volts?
> 
> Yeh, we all know how you like to have fun.


Depending on the maximum speed the motor is safe to I am only looking at a 3:1 from motor to wheel to get that 70mph at about 3000rpm range.
If I was to use the reduction gears and part of the housing from the axle I would be adding best part of 40kg to the motor!

I dropped that end of the axle on the ground while moving it about on the trailer. It punched one of the cobble stones over an inch deeper into the ground from only a 12" free drop (when I gave up trying to hold it and let go).
Even with the lifting chain on it I could bearly lift it off the ground, Dad and I had to lift it between us on a scaffold pole and chain to put it back on the trailer. It certainly weighs more then the 12" motor so possibly 120+kg.

I haven't actually checked the motor voltage. Jackbauer put me in touch with the chap _quote _'breaking two 80v fork lifts'. The battery packs were wired in series and there were enough of them to be in that range.
Not tested the motor either.
I thought about it but was worried about the brakes being stuck. If they freed up then the axle would drive round on the drums. It could have rolled off the trailer quite easily.
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't run. Brushes look good, comm looks good, windings are clean and no signs of heat or abrasion. I could spin it half a turn with my finger through the vents to take up the slack in the gears.


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry for the late reply. My drunk wife has just arrived home from a girls night out. 

I would be happy to help with the machining of your DE cap. I'm free on Sunday morning and would be happy to come to see you and discuss your needs. Let me know if it suits you and if so, pm me your address and post code.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

PM sent.

Thank you for the offer. I have been looking for a bigger lathe but that is a bit extreme for one job.
This Sunday is difficult for me as I will be setting up the theatre for this year's panto, Alladin. I will be on stage all week evenings being a 'stage ninja' making the Genie's magic work.
I will also be spending the days in the wood shop progressing a commission.

Having a half term week is good but it is also hectic.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OT

Not a good day today.

Yesterday I took my cat to the vets. She had not been eating for a week despite many changes of food types and feeding routines to try and encourage her. Following blood tests the prognosis wasn't good, possible kidney failure.

Last night she stopped drinking water.
She went back in today for x-rays. Her heart and lungs were being squashed by fluid in her chest and abdominal cavity caused by a lump or tumour. It was causing heart and lung failure and so the decision was made, this afternoon, to let her go to save her suffering and starving. 

Miranda (Maggott!!) was 17 years old.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

My heartfelt sympathy for your loss. We lost our ratter after 14 years due to malicious poisoning last year, and sometimes I still look around to see what he is up to.

Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

DawidvC said:


> My heartfelt sympathy for your loss. We lost our ratter after 14 years due to malicious poisoning last year, and sometimes I still look around to see what he is up to.
> 
> Dawid


That is awful, I am sorry to hear that. 

Thank you. At least with Maggott she was a grand old age and still playful and friendly to a fairly natural end.
She was a big ball of tortoise shell fluff who spent her life flouncing and flirting to her heart's content.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

But I had to do that with my last dog and it was hard. (At least I took it hard) She was 15 a long life for a Shepard... It took several years to get my golden...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is Maggott enjoying the bench in the garden.
She was called Miranda but shortened to Maggott as she was such a maggoty, moth eaten, rescue kitten. She has also been called Tart due to the way she flirted at the window to all the passing neighbourhood Toms.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry to hear that Woody. I can only imagine. My dog has been with me for nearly eight years now and him being gone would be a HUGE void in my life.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you.

It will be my birthday in the morning too. I will be making a little casket for her ashes, I seem to be making more pet caskets then furniture, maybe it will be a sideline.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Sorry to hear  Last year i lost one of my cats to cancer. He was a massive pure black tom that just came in the back door about ten years ago and told me in no uncertain terms he wanted food and lodging!. I named him "hydraulic ram" because there wasnt a door in the house he couldn't open


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers, Jack.

Just enjoying a 10 year old malt and remembering all my past cats and dogs.


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## pariah (Oct 10, 2008)

Woodsmith, I'm sorry about your friend. I've had to do the same thing twice. They were our daughter's cats but they lived their entire lives with us. We even took them to California with us when we moved there and back home when it didn't work. I still miss them both. They both lived to 19 years old. I definitely know how you feel!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you, Pariah, it does upset me quite deeply, in some ways more then it does losing people. Losing people just just lasts a bit longer.

I have been burying myself in work and design stuff to keep occupied.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Ok so I figured we are all animal lovers, how long it finally took me to get another dog, and that I should not post this on the forum but you have to admit my new dog has taken over that lost place - er maybe too much...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Lovely dog! I love the use of the paw rest.

There is definately a requirement for a dog seat far more then a honey seat.
No leg room requirement makes it easier. 



I think tomorrow, after I have done some brick laying for a neighbour I may try to make a wooden DE cap for my 11" motor to see if it runs.
I don't have a bearing yet but I will sort something out as a temporary solution just to spin the motor, first by hand then then with 12v.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Why not use a piece of leather for a bearing? If it was good enough for Henry....

Dawid


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Why not use a piece of leather for a bearing? If it was good enough for Henry....

Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I finally got around to having another play with the 11" motor while procrastinating over college paperwork.

I used a piece of 18mm MDF and routed out a piece to fit as an end cap. The hole in the centre is just a slip fit on the shaft so no bearing was used. I rebated an edge so that it located properly on the frame and bolted it down.










I tested with a 12V battery connected to one pair of teminals and an old bent wood screw to bridge the other two connections to make it run.
It seems to get faster after a while in the video, probably as the MDF wore a little and caused less friction.
Sounds good.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, I've finally mechanised and bought one of these.








An Evolution Fury 3. It can cut 60x220mm steel up to 3mm thick though I'm sure I can do a bit more sometimes.
It was on offer and will save time and elbow grease with the hacksaw when I start making chassis frame parts.

Need to find space for it in the workshop though.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Nice saw Woodie!
I have one very similar.








I'm thinking of getting some fire-proof nickers and building this dinosuarus motocyclelus!








Best Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Haha, I post a battery powered locomotive in Chat and you post a steam powered bike here!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I managed to spare an hour or so in the workshop with the trike today.
So good to get back in there and get some grease on my hands.

Didn't do much but played about with the parts I have.
I managed to buy a couple of MG wire wheel hubs last week from ebay. One is a front left side and the other is a rear right side.

I tried to find a way to fit the front hub to the BMW final drive and whatever I looked it it wasn't going to work very well. Not only was the BMW bolt hole PCD too small but at 68mm it was too small to clear the diameter of the MG hub. I drew a few options for an adaptor but then decided that the laoding would be too much for such a small PCD. The lateral loads would want to press on the brake disc and the thickness of the adaptor pushed the final drive bearings too far from the centre line so the bending moment across them would be much too big.

So I went back to the Honda swing arm and the rear MG hub. This looked to be a much better fit.
The Honda PCD is 100mm whereas the holes on the MG hub is 115mm PCD. It would still need an adaptor but it would be a thin plate to locate the male spigot on both parts to centralise it.
This means I could weld a 10mm plate to the MG hub and then machine the back of it to match the Honda hub. That would strengthen the MG hub too as the flange I am using is only meant to drive the brake drum while the drive shaft takes the dynamic loads.

so, fo setting up, I filed the holes on the MG hub to elongate them and then bolted it to the Honda studs. If it all works out I can replace this old one with a new one.









For a lack of suitable M12x1.25 nuts I used a stack of washers and a M12x1.75 nut screwed on one turn just to hold it.

You can see the small gap for the spacer to go between the rusty MG hub and the black Honda hub.

I then placed the 11" motor in a transverse location and slung the old chain over it all to look at alignment.

















The chain is only placed on the motor drive gear pinion which will be replaced with a sprocket. Both front and rear sprockets will need to be larger and with around 2.8:1 to around 3:1 ratio depending on what is available.

Here is what it looks like in terms of lateral alignment.

















As you can see the motor is pushed a fair way to the right and and the swing arm is slightly to the left.
If I offset the rear sprocket carrier outboard then I can move the motor over to the left maybe 1" - 1 1/2" to improve balance.
Even as it is it is a lot more central then the longer 12" motor was.

Overall, with larger sprockets I can probably have enough clearance over the swing arm pivot point to prevent contact though I can always add a tensioner to increase that.

At least now with the wheel and hub fixed to the swing arm I can start looking at clearances and swing arm location relative to the motor and chassis.

I would still prefer to run a belt drive but I may be constrained by funds to keep to chain for the foreseeable future, at least during setting up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like it Woody - simple and effective. Great to see you working on it again too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Todd.

Not ignoring your email, still trying to find a way to save that AutoCad drawing, can't do it at home and the University have locked me out of the network for non payment of the fees that they already have.

Anyway, I think that if I can make up the DE cap and then have a second bearing outboard of the pinion gear then it will be more then strong enough and balance the length, if not the weight, of the motor across the width of the trike.
If suspension movement isn't too extreme then the cain tension might not be too great an issue either.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Hey Woodie!
Looking good!
You may need to go with an extra gear shaft and gears to get the high speeds, though.
You can always adapt a FS800 BMW bike belt pulley, if you decide to go that way.
P.S.
I'm thinking that the steam motorbike frame would be perfect for ThunderSky battery packs, then forget the steam!
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sunworksco said:


> Hey Woodie!
> Looking good!
> You may need to go with an extra gear shaft and gears to get the high speeds, though.
> You can always adapt a FS800 BMW bike belt pulley, if you decide to go that way.
> ...


At 3000rpm, which the motor should manage I get 81.3mph with 2.8:1 and 75.0mph with 3:1. Crawling in traffic would be a lot less efficient but I'm not planning on doing too much of that.

I would like a belt but the parts are a little harder to find cheaply here and I would need to be able to part the chassis frame to install it unless I could move the pulleys a lot further outboard.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...and I would need to be able to part the chassis frame to install it unless I could move the pulleys a lot further outboard.


Just in case you happen to find a good deal on a belt setup: Depending on what you have in mind for the chassis, you may also be able to have a bolt-in crossmember section behind the belt; or maybe two small ones over and under the belt.

No biggie on the CAD model. I just figured you were busy over there.  I'm having trouble with motivation, especially since winter weather has arrived. 30-degrees is a warm day around here lately.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

30degF I take it, Todd. That's about -1degC. Right now outside it is about -12degC, that's about 10degF.
Way too cold to work on the tractor especially with 6" of snow.

Yeah, I've been overly busy with finishing college stuff, and my teacher training, as well as not managing to get a commission out for Christmas. I hate missing deadlines.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> 30degF I take it, Todd. That's about -1degC. Right now outside it is about -12degC, that's about 10degF.
> Way too cold to work on the tractor especially with 6" of snow.
> 
> Yeah, I've been overly busy with finishing college stuff, and my teacher training, as well as not managing to get a commission out for Christmas. I hate missing deadlines.


Yup, 30degF. We've had some near 10degF days. I don't know if it reached as low as 10, but it was too close for my comfort. I hate winter, and can't wait to finally live in a year-round warm climate. Someday... 

I can't really blame my lack of motivation on the weather because it (the lack of motivation) has been consistent pretty much all year. I just can't get myself in gear. Normally, having the Inhaler and Tailfeather, I can switch between projects and find something to get the wheels turning. I haven't been working on either project, other than regular maintenance on the driver.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sometimes when it is all work or only chores or maintenance tasks taking up time and there is no outlet for the creativity it sorta goes into hibernation.

I've felt like that a few times where I just look at a blank sheet of paper and can't draw anything, sometimes not even a cube or a cylinder. Even the doodles dry up.
Acquiring a honey has helped a little, but I still don't get much done for the distraction! 
Though it has been too many weeks since I've seen her. Roll on NYE for the next date!


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


>


That looks damn sexy!



Woodsmith said:


>


Not that I have any experience in the matter, but is it possable to tip the rear seat back 10° or so. The way the passengers Cg might be lower, and they can tuck their feet in under them a bit, reducing the gap you need between the seats?

This thread has inspired me to add a reverse trike to my long list of things I want to build but never have the time.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I would like a belt but the parts are a little harder to find cheaply here and I would need to be able to part the chassis frame to install it unless I could move the pulleys a lot further outboard.


If you do want to go for belt drive you can often find pulleys from old Kawasaki GPZ series bikes on ebay. Here's one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KAWASAKI-GPZ3...rcycle_Parts&hash=item19b7206283#ht_500wt_922 This looks the same as one I have sitting here, which is 65 tooth.

The most expensive part is likely to be the belt, though you could strike lucky and find one those new on ebay too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Bellistner said:


> Not that I have any experience in the matter, but is it possable to tip the rear seat back 10° or so. The way the passengers Cg might be lower, and they can tuck their feet in under them a bit, reducing the gap you need between the seats?


Thanks.
The seats were just to mock up, I think I will be building in weather proof seats as part of the body structure. The motor and controller will sit under the passenger seat and the passenger seat will actually be a luggage area 99% of the time. The seat back will be lower and tip forward to cover the luggage like an old style rumble seat.
I may turn the seat into more of a saddle so that the passenger can extend their legs on either side of the driver to save room and to lower the passenger's CoG.
The 'honey' seat has been a bit of a pain to be honest, so much easier to not have it but my honey is sorta looking forward to sitting on that 11" motor!




MalcolmB said:


> If you do want to go for belt drive you can often find pulleys from old Kawasaki GPZ series bikes on ebay. Here's one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KAWASAKI-GPZ3...rcycle_Parts&hash=item19b7206283#ht_500wt_922 This looks the same as one I have sitting here, which is 65 tooth.
> 
> The most expensive part is likely to be the belt, though you could strike lucky and find one those new on ebay too.


I have been looking at the costly Harley Davidson stuff mainly because I don't know what bikes have big pulleys and if the belts are all the same size and interchangable. I will have a look at Kawasaki but also pop down to my local bike shop for advice on which bike have affordable spares.

So what sort of tooth pitch and belt width should I be looking for as a ball park figure?


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

The Kawasaki pulleys are 14mm pitch HTD, 30mm wide. Harley/Buell use the same pitch, though sometimes wider. I doubt there's a standard length. You can find Harley pulleys up to around 80T. That would give you a reduction of up to 3.33:1 with a 24T motor pulley, which is about the smallest I would go to ensure decent belt life.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I may turn the seat into more of a saddle so that the passenger can extend their legs on either side of the driver...


Dirty old man! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...The 'honey' seat has been a bit of a pain to be honest, so much easier to not have it but my honey is sorta looking forward to sitting on that 11" motor!...


You won't see it that way when her legs are wrapped around you with a motor buzzing under her... 

Hmmm, maybe you should adopt some technology from the new luxury cars that monitors whether you're still alert behind the wheel...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for that, Malcolm.

I will need to check pulley diameters to make sure that I have the clearance for a large pulley on the swing arm.
An 80t pulley is about 357mm diameter, I don't know if I can fit that size.

I am looking at one supplier who only lists down to 28t and that gives a better ratio with an 80t.

The other option would be to turn the motor longitudinally and then bolt on the BMW final drive to get me a 2.8:1 and then have a pulley from there to the rear wheel with a 1:1 ratio.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Dirty old man!
> 
> You won't see it that way when her legs are wrapped around you with a motor buzzing under her...
> 
> Hmmm, maybe you should adopt some technology from the new luxury cars that monitors whether you're still alert behind the wheel...


Yeah!
It will be the not knowing if the scream is to stop or keep driving!

Crumbs, I wonder if she is reading this!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Yeah!
> It will be the not knowing if the scream is to stop or keep driving!
> 
> Crumbs, I wonder if she is reading this!


Too funny!  Happy motoring, Woody!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I might have to use my admin rights to edit out some incriminating posts later.

I had a quick shuffle around of parts.
How about this?

















The BMW final drive will provide the reduction and a belt or chain of any reasonable size can transmit a 1:1 drive to the wheel.
I can even leave the BMW disc in place to use as a parking brake.

It makes the assembly a bit long but I can lose an inch and a bit from the coupler.
It would also allow a saddle type passenger seat with feet space on either side of the motor. The motor can be covered in a tunnel that is made shrapnal proof.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

That looks about right. The only thing I see (depending on total weight/traction) is you might need to go to the next size bigger chain.

Otherwise I think you have it.

Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, I like that Woody. It's the most logical setup, because it balances the components better and takes care of the final drive ratio nicely. You also have the option of fine-tuning the ratio much less expensively with slightly bigger/smaller sprockets or pulleys.

Now start welding!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Jim and Todd.

So long as there is enough 'slop' in the splines mating to both the motor and the BMW FD than I can work it with just the one bearing in the motor DE and then bolt the FD unit to the DE cap. I can even try to pick up the speedo sensor on the FD unit.

I did just think of being cruel and having an enclosed cockpit for the driver but the passenger is a conventional motor bike set up straddling the motor!

If that is going to be the set up I can aim to sit the motor low in the chassis rails and even tilt it so that the FD unit is at the right height for the swing arm pivot.
I will need to have a think about the motor ventilation to make sure it doesn't ingest dirt and water. It might need to be sealed underneath in case of wading in puddles.

I have some 41mm square section Unistrut beams that I can use to mock up chassis rails. Rescued 6 x 3m lengths of new Unistrut at the scrap yard earlier in the year.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Why add this useless lenght to your trike (BMW final drive) when this one is originaly build to go in the wheel?

Stay motor in this position, put the BMW right angle drive in the wheel and add a simple drive shaft between both!!


Also, do you think this right angle gearbox will be capable to pass the high torque of your motor? I'm not sure about BMW torque, but I know than many motorcycle don't have a lot of torque.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The extra length won't be so useless as it will be luggage space and part time passenger seat. The wheel base will probably stay the same 2500mm I started with and I will just move the seat forward.

However, I did try to use the BMW FD straight onto the wheel but because I want to use a wire wheel hub the clearences pushed the hub a long way from the FD bearings. The centre line of the tyre would be many inches more offset then the original BMW wheel and I doubted the bearing would cope. Also the four bolts on the FD are on a small 68mm PCD and so that would also be a weak point to connect a hub so far offset from it.

Also, unless the swing arm is very long, and the drive shaft angled, the off set of the drive shaft puts all the motor weight on one side of the trike chassis. If it worked I would have prefered the shaft drive method which is where I was before I got the wire wheel hubs to try it with.

I haven't a clue as to how strong the BMW FD unit will be.
The BMW K100 engine produces 90bhp @8000rpm and 63lb-ft at 6000rpm. First gear ratio is 4.5:1 so the FD will 'see' up to 283lb-ft at 1333rpm. 
The FD ratio is 2.81:1.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I found some old wheel nuts that fitted the Honda studs so I decided to use them and at th same time get a proper photo of the splined wire wheel hub on the Honda hub.









As can be seen the splined hub is less then 10mm from the Honda wheel face. On the BMW unit it would need to be around 40-50mm further out and on a much smaller diameter mating face.

I have also been thinking of maybe making a steel swing arm (given I can't weld aluminium) that allows the BMW FD to be axially in line with the swing arm pivot.

I found this one on [url=http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8638&page=5]Custom Fighters[/URL] that has been fabricated and I reckon I can do just as well but with a nicer looking design.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

That fabricated rear sure is purdy...
Wood, Im not sure if your aware, but the debate rages about using "stock swingarms" on reverse trikes, remember bikes were never meant to sustain side loads like a trike will see. Personally, im down the middle.

But...

Because its a trike, we have the option to so something bikes cant do.

If were talking about a 2 sided swingarm, you can make the front part of the "H" the swingarm forms a bit longer and have it pivot on the exact same axis as the front sprocket. chain slop becomes a whole lot less of an issue


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

todayican said:


> . . . and have it pivot on the exact same axis as the front sprocket. chain slop becomes a whole lot less of an issue


Woody,

He does have a valid point. If you are going to construct your own swing arm then you can build it so the front pivots on the same plane as the output shaft. The front pivot of the swing arm does not have to use a through axle. It could be two pivot points that saddle outbord of the final drive unit. 

Doing that would eliminate any kind of chain or belt tensioning problem. Simple and elegant.

Jim


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Tom takes a bow...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I have also been thinking of maybe making a steel swing arm (given I can't weld aluminium) *that allows the BMW FD to be axially in line with the swing arm pivot*...


Guys you're suggesting what Woody said he was going to do?


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Doh! Sorry woody


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Guys you're suggesting what Woody said he was going to do?


WHOOPS  good catch Todd. 

Since you were nice, we wont jump back too hard when we catch you out

I actually read that and later came back, read today's post, and forgot what Woody wrote. I really should know better. Woody wouldn't miss something like that.

Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> WHOOPS  good catch Todd.
> 
> Since you were nice, we wont jump back too hard when we catch you out...


Catch me? Never!  (looking over shoulder nervously)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Guys you're suggesting what Woody said he was going to do?



There would be no other reason for going to all the trouble and weight of welding up a steel swing arm.

I took the swing arm apart today to see what it was like on the inside.









The round part that the hub fits into is 105mm bore. I can either get one made up or I can try and roll some flat steel to that size. It will need to be split on one side anyway so that it can be clamped around the hub so it may not be too bad to make. I may get a metal worker to roll it accurately anyway.

I will make it so that it avoids the sludge trap. When reading up on how it is done there was a really good write up on a motor bike forum and it claimed that there would be an obligatory bolt rattling in the swing arm and there it is! Spot it?









I think I will need new bearings. Brown sludge isn't very good.









If I make up my own swing arm I can also make the mounting points wider to distribute the loading better. One of my concerns was that if the swing arm was long then the sideways moment becomes larger. Moving the mounts further apart would save that.

On that point, the Honda swing arm pivots on taper roller bearings. Car axle location is by rubber bushes.
Any reason why I couldn't or shouldn't use two rubber bushes to mount the swing arm? I was thinking of the type used to mount leaf springs where there is very little rubber.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Any reason why I couldn't or shouldn't use two rubber bushes to mount the swing arm? I was thinking of the type used to mount leaf springs where there is very little rubber...


At first I thought that the leaf spring bushing isn't really designed to pivot much, but then I realized they are the same types used in control arms, so I can't see why it wouldn't work.

The only question is why you want the rubber? Most swing arms have solid bronze or needle bearings, to eliminate flexing. With rubber, you will be introducing it into your chassis. I don't know enough about reverse trikes to know whether that's good or bad though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The only question is why you want the rubber?


Cheap, easier to align, no need for grease seals, simple bolt together, no more or less robust compared to the front suspension mountings, I have some in stock, with bolts I think.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Woodie,
Vibration dampening is the reason for rubber bushings.
You get vibration mostly from the chain/gear and the tire scrubbing the tarmac.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Giovanni.

So if I was to rubber mount the swing arm and also the motor and FD unit it will remove the vibrations but not adversly effect the vehicle too much.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Woodie,
As long as you can achieve a near-perfect swing-arm alignment, it will be an advantage to have rubber bushings. You can use a laser to get the swing-arm adjusted correctly from the beginning but that doesn't take into the matter of the wheel axle alignment being off. This is why a mechanical adjuster is recommended.
A bike does not need a perfect alignment but a trike would need this.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sunworksco said:


> Woodie,
> As long as you can achieve a near-perfect swing-arm alignment, it will be an advantage to have rubber bushings. You can use a laser to get the swing-arm adjusted correctly from the beginning but that doesn't take into the matter of the wheel axle alignment being off. This is why a mechanical adjuster is recommended.
> A bike does not need a perfect alignment but a trike would need this.
> Regards,
> Giovanni


Funny then that cars have rubber mounted suspension while bikes have taper bearings or solid bushings isn't it?

I will aim to have laser alignment to ensure the rear wheel tracks correctly and I will also check that it is square to the swing arm pivot and that the swing arm pivot is level.

I will need to make a decent jig to set up the fabricated swing arm.
Quite possibly the bush mounting brackets will have a degree of adjustment on the chassis too.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

My first ICE trike failed it's first MOT test because there was a small amount of flex in the rubber bushes. You'd be better to use bearings or metal bushes. I promise you.

Andrew.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

On my builds I always used 1" heims, stronger then hell, and adjustable.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

Duh, its a shaft drive, never mind ;-)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duxuk said:


> My first ICE trike failed it's first MOT test because there was a small amount of flex in the rubber bushes. You'd be better to use bearings or metal bushes. I promise you.
> 
> Andrew.


CHeers, I guess it is different under bike rules.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

The Kirk EV will see the road again in 2011. I used steel bush tube with a 12mm bore. Many of them were sleeved with 12mm tubing with a 1mm guage. This, and the bolts can be cheaply replaced if any play developes in the log term. The only difficulty is that you need to take the bolts out, at least part of the way, to grease them. You could, of course install grease nipples to make life easier. You'll get a lot of torque trying to turn the swinging arm side ways in your trike. Much more than with shorter car type suspension arms, which usually are wishbone or semi trailing arms. With wishbones you have four bushes for each wheel instead of two. I must come down and see your progress in the New Year. (not under electrical power unfortunately!)

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It will be good to see you, Andrew, but there isn't much to look at and I haven't done as much as I would like over the Christmas break.

I have been looking into a concern over the MSVA the trike registration.

Have a look at this thread http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/afternoon-all-53368.html where poohstyx says that reverse trikes are not being registered anymore and trikes are only considered as single front wheel and motorbike suspension.

Looking on the Directgov site there is the latest MSVA PDF available.
Reading carefully, and asking on a trike forum, I suspect that the MSVA inspection proceedure covers reverse trike with car type steering though the glossary appears to omit that option even for motor quadracycles. However, reverse trikes and 'grown up' quadracycles would fall into the 'heavy' class and that isn't covered in the glossary at all.

If you ave any insight to add it would be useful.
Cheers.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

There hasn't been any change to the MSVA since I did mine last year. If there had it would have been reported in the kit car press, which I read. If you keep your kerb weight to less than 450Kg ( I think it's 450) then you would be looking at the same regulations as me. You can get the MSVA manual from the DVLA, look it up on DIRECT.GOV. It cost about £30 but I have a source for a down load of an early draft of the document. It has some exceptions for "amature built" which did not make it to the final document, but apart from that it's quite accurate.

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is the third version of the MSVA 2010 Inspection Manual
for anyone who wants it.
It has four times as many pages as the draft document I got from you, Andrew, but I have yet to print it off to have a look at what all the changes are.

I will keep at it and get my mind back on the weight limit.
One of the things in the draft was an upper weight limit of 1000kg for heavy tricycles, I will need to check to see if it is one of the things that has gone or been shifted to cargo carriers and quadracycles.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

From the Inhaler thread:


Woodsmith said:


> I like that first sketch.
> I can see parts of it working for my trike, a big rear suspension set up pushing a two seat body along.
> 
> I have been playing with the body on mine looking back at the Morgan influences but not wanting the same back end. You may have inspired me to lose the back body altogether (aside from what I need to be legal).
> ...


I love the minimalistic rear body idea. It would give you the opportunity to make the engineering and fabrication the highlight of the design. The kind of thing you can stare at for hours... 

Another thing, which led me to using the Model T bodywork in the first place, is the simpler you keep the bodywork, and the more emphasis you place on designing and engineering mechanical stuff, the more enjoyable the project should be for you. We kind of share that fascination with mechanical systems. When I am focused on those the Inhaler is more fun. I like playing with composites but, in the case of EVs, it's all about the powertrain and that's where the most enjoyable aspects are IMO.




Woodsmith said:


> ...I have even been thinking of moving the motor back up to the front again, stood vertically behind the nosecone and driving down onto a bevel box to get the prop right under the floor.


That is very, very, intriguing!  Would you fabricate your own gearbox or purchase an existing right-angle drive? Ahhhhh, the joy of a scratch-built project - the options are virtually limitless! 

More please...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I figured with the earlier idea of the BMW unit on the end of the motor that the motor could be at the front instead of behind the seats.
Then I looked at some Morgan's with a 'bullnose' front end that could hide a motor.









Looks so much like a Morris bullnose radiator shape.








Ideal for hiding a vertical motor behind it.

I was playing with the idea of fitting the Yamaha bevel box to the motor DE and driving it the wrong way, via a shaft, to the BMW FD unit at the back and then chain drive to the wheel. Unfortunately I would have to have the shaft balanced and safe at 10K+ RPM.
I was looking at this image








I could have a short belt reduction drive from the motor to the bevel box and then a shaft...
It all gets complicated so possibly the motor could go conventionally at the front with a shaft drive to the rear.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I figured with the earlier idea of the BMW unit on the end of the motor that the motor could be at the front instead of behind the seats.
> Then I looked at some Morgan's with a 'bullnose' front end that could hide a motor...
> 
> Looks so much like a Morris bullnose radiator shape...
> ...


Ridiculously complicated (possibly venturing into Rube Goldberg territory) but also really interesting ideas! I love, love, love, the idea of the motor being inside that grille shell! Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what about running the shaft directly from the front diff to a shaft drive set in the rear? Is it even possible to mate your rear wheel to one of the shaft drive arms? Or, maybe a short belt drive up from the driveshaft (ok, ok, "prop" shaft ) up to a shaft-drive motor cycle arm? That would allow you center the motor, offset the arm, and keep the directional changes to a minimum.

Honestly, I think you should put the motor in back with the least complicated drive system possible, and highlight the motor and drive system as part of the trike's design, with the "drive-system-pushing-bucket" idea you had. This vertical motor idea is just too awesome to not think about though! A second, completely unpractical trike project, just for the fun of it? If it has no practical purpose, "we" can let "our" imaginations run wild!!! (Notice how i injected myself in it?) You have enough motors and parts!  Steampunk, Rube Goldberg, etc, all fit the idea so well...


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Out of interest, is there a technical reason an electric motor can't be mounted and used vertically, or at any other angle?

So, for example, you have the electric motor at a 60 degree angle over the swingarm, so it forms part of the wheel arch. Or even vertically down at the pivot point to a 90 degree turn, so you as a rider/driver/pilot are sitting with the electric motor as your backrest. 

Just a thought.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was thinking of not having a radiator shell, just the motor standing up at the front with an air scoop on the CE directing air into the armature and then back out the DE underneath. The body work would stop short and there would just be a couple of big flexible conduits leading to the pairs of terminals like exhaust headers.
Given the terminals are in pairs and at 90deg to each other it would look like a giant single cylinder ICE.









Seriously though, I would still like to use the BMW FD onto the wheel as it is a clean system.
The problem lies in the offset needed. The BMW wheel is narrow and has a long spigot in the middle that locates deep into a hole in the middle of the hub. That transfers the loading right into the heart of the hub bearings. The wheel is then fixed with four bolts at a 68mm pcd.
To use the MG splined hub the offset of the wheel would mean having about 40-50mm of adaptor between the splined hub and the BMW hub. That puts a lot of leverage on that little 68mm pcd given a wider tyre and clearence for the swing arm.
I don't think the hub bearing would like it very much even if the bolts held.

I will re-examine the idea again as I would prefer shaft drive if I could be sure of not losing the wheel on a speed bump.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I was thinking of not having a radiator shell, just the motor standing up at the front with an air scoop on the CE directing air into the armature and then back out the DE underneath. The body work would stop short and there would just be a couple of big flexible conduits leading to the pairs of terminals like exhaust headers.
> Given the terminals are in pairs and at 90deg to each other it would look like a giant single cylinder ICE...


OMG Woody, that is so freakin awesome! Screw practicality, you have to go for it!  The motor as grille, with scoop, is just too irresistable - way to use your imagination man!





Woodsmith said:


> ...The problem lies in the offset needed. The BMW wheel is narrow and has a long spigot in the middle that locates deep into a hole in the middle of the hub. That transfers the loading right into the heart of the hub bearings. The wheel is then fixed with four bolts at a 68mm pcd.
> To use the MG splined hub the offset of the wheel would mean having about 40-50mm of adaptor between the splined hub and the BMW hub. That puts a lot of leverage on that little 68mm pcd given a wider tyre and clearence for the swing arm.
> I don't think the hub bearing would like it very much even if the bolts held.
> 
> I will re-examine the idea again as I would prefer shaft drive if I could be sure of not losing the wheel on a speed bump.


What can't you have a support arm coming around the other side of the wheel. You can make it organic, tentacle-like, a thumb of the nose to traditional single-sided swing arm design. Some of your 1/2" plate and 3/4" bolts and it would support a semi wheel!


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Are not motors that stand on end, using a special Thrust Bearing, to support the weight of the Armature ?? Seems that, over the years, that's what I came to understand. ???


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Are not motors that stand on end, using a special Thrust Bearing, to support the weight of the Armature ?? Seems that, over the years, that's what I came to understand. ???


I have no bearing or DE cap at the moment so anything is possible in this senario. 

I had considered it, especially given the weight of the armature in an 11" motor, and decided it wasn't a major problem to overcome. I can certainly use a taper roller but a sealed axial thrust ball bearing would be fine.
The bigger problem would the the bearing in the bevel box. The gears would have good splash but the upper most bearing would run dry as it would be sheilded by the crown wheel. It could be difficult getting a suitable sealed bearing.

However, this is hypothetical until such time that I build something, like a crane in the workshop, to lift the motor up!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Heres a little view of my attempts a using AutoCad.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Heres a little view of my attempts a using AutoCad.


Cool.  Now flip that motor up, slide it to the front, and run a "prop" shaft back to the swing arm!  CAD rules the world.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, but this is the simplest, lightest and most efficient version. A wide swing arm pivoting on the same axis as the motor shaft.

If I could only weld aluminium it would be even lighter and I could adapt the Honda unit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Ahhh, but this is the simplest, lightest and most efficient version. A wide swing arm pivoting on the same axis as the motor shaft.
> 
> If I could only weld aluminium it would be even lighter and I could adapt the Honda unit.


So all that vertical motor stuff was just to wake me up out of my rut huh? It worked! I just finished about a hour of CAD on a customer project!


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

If you remeber my design the motor is mounted on top of the swinging arm. The motor is close to the pivot point so the moment of inertia is small. Would there be enough space on the BMW swinging arm to mount the motor this way? It certainly keeps things simpler. I wouldn't want to stress the motor by mounting the swinging arm concentrically. I even considered mounting my motor on the opposite side of the swinging arm bearings to keep the whole thing shorter. Looking at the parts you have I would see the best way might be to mount the motor longditudally with the chance to then use gears to transmit the power to the drive shaft. Sorry if the above has all been talked about before but I have not followed the entire thread.

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> So all that vertical motor stuff was just to wake me up out of my rut huh? It worked! I just finished about a hour of CAD on a customer project!


Well, sorta.

I am a little concerned about the registration and legalities of getting this thing on the road at the moment and so I am looking at both ends of the spectrum, big and crazy and simple and light. Big and crazy will never get legal whereas simple and light might do.

Besides, I have been away from work long enough to get creative again and I can't believe how much I have missed that feeling. Sadly it will all end again in a week.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duxuk said:


> If you remeber my design the motor is mounted on top of the swinging arm. The motor is close to the pivot point so the moment of inertia is small. Would there be enough space on the BMW swinging arm to mount the motor this way? It certainly keeps things simpler. I wouldn't want to stress the motor by mounting the swinging arm concentrically. I even considered mounting my motor on the opposite side of the swinging arm bearings to keep the whole thing shorter. Looking at the parts you have I would see the best way might be to mount the motor longditudally with the chance to then use gears to transmit the power to the drive shaft. Sorry if the above has all been talked about before but I have not followed the entire thread.
> 
> Andrew.


If you have a look back up at post 310 there is an explanation of why the BMW unit won't mate with the wheel I want to to use.

I'm not sure I see why the motor would be stressed if it is concentric.
Unless you are thinking of the movement of the swing arm adding a torsional stress to the armature's rotation while it is spinning.

Fixing the motor to the swing arm would be interesting given the motor is around 80+kg (I've not managed to lift it onto the scales yet) and mounted above would push the CoG quite high.

As for longitudinal mounting I considered that a few posts back where I posted this image.








The motor would drive the BMW final drive and that would then drive a chain to the wheel. It means I can use a large driving sprocket to aid chain clearance of the swing arm with all the gearing done in the BM unit. However, it makes the trike long or pushed the diver's seat even further forwards.
That's when I started thinking of putting the motor up front again and using a long propshaft but all this starts to add weight.
So now I am trying to simplify and using the motor with a sprocket to direct drive is as simple and lightweight as it can be.

I am going to mock up another earlier idea of a seat and a half wide tub with a movable steering wheel for centre or offside driver seating.
Saving length that way will also reduce weight and excuse a hand on the 'honey's' knee.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

You keep saying "If I could Only Weld Aluminium" Well most of the MIG welders can, You switch polarity and you have to keep the tube liner as straight as possible and feed fast. You need straight Argon as well. It is a pain sometimes because it is hard to push soft aluminium wire throught the tube. Another way is find an inexpensive spool gun and attach it to your MIG. 

After that aluminium welding is just learning how to push/melt wire into stiff mud.

I've done aluminium with one of my MIGs and it worked OK, ugly welds but that was me. I was better with TIG but that was before my hands started to shake. There are a couple of starter books out there from the MIG manfacturers.

In my opinion, forget the front motor driveshaft, (sorry Todd) KISS is the way to go. Either the sidewinder or the inline look good If you want to show off the motor, just leave it uncovered.

I really think either the sidewinder or the inline setup with the swingarm pivot aligned with the output shaft is the most elegant.

You could build a frame and pivot using the same kind of bearing setup like your front axle on the tractor. Plenty strong.

Happy New Year,
Jim


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

It is very easy to use the Lotus Motor Co. method of aluminum/epoxy/rivet bonding.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> You keep saying "If I could Only Weld Aluminium" Well most of the MIG welders can, You switch polarity and you have to keep the tube liner as straight as possible and feed fast. You need straight Argon as well.
> Happy New Year,
> Jim


Happy New Year to you too, Jim.

I've been looking at spool guns for my MIG and small reels of aluminium wire but it all comes down to cost, especially when a bottle of argon is needed as well.
Also I have never done any before so there is all the wastage from practice too.
I would be safer, I think, firstly finding out if the swing arm can be welded and then getting some stock tube and finding someone local who can weld it for me.
I am tempted, also, to ask at college if they have the set up for it and if I could use it.
If I can modify the Honda unit it would be a lot lighter.



sunworksco said:


> It is very easy to use the Lotus Motor Co. method of aluminum/epoxy/rivet bonding.
> Regards,
> Giovanni


Would that be strong enough for extending a swingarm?




Jimdear2 said:


> I really think either the sidewinder or the inline setup with the swingarm pivot aligned with the output shaft is the most elegant.
> 
> You could build a frame and pivot using the same kind of bearing setup like your front axle on the tractor. Plenty strong.


I am looking for just that sort of bearing at the moment but also wondering if pillow block bearings would work as well. They are not very elegant but are simple to use and are self aligning.

Yes, it looks like I will go that route with the sidewinder. However, given that I would prefer to sit on the right I am tempted to invert the swing arm and have the motor overhang on the left to balance my weight. I can't see any reason why the brake, chain ring and hub couldn't run backwards on the right hand side.

Also with the sidewinder set up I have every option to change the motor as it will be sitting on its own cradle with just the cables and the chain sprocket attached. So if it doesn't do what I need or something lighter and more powerful comes along I can change it.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> ...In my opinion, forget the front motor driveshaft, (sorry Todd) KISS is the way to go. Either the sidewinder or the inline look good If you want to show off the motor, just leave it uncovered...


I'm actually in complete agreement with you Jim. I quickly stated that the sidewinder version is the most practical, best, way to go for this project - then finished dreaming about the vertical front engined setup! 

I think he should finish this one for his basic transportation needs with the most locigical, least complicated, setup - then build a little single-seater, completely irrational, incredibly fun, vertical front engined trike one day in the future.

From what I understand about MIG welding aluminum, you need a monster MIG welder to do anything beyond cosmetic type stuff. That's probably why you were getting mud-like puddles Jim. I have been tempted to get a spool gun for my MIG but most of the aluminum stuff I want welded needs to be done with a TIG, so it nevers happens. They also sell the replacement liners for running aluminum wire with the conventional gun. It's plastic so the aluminum wire can't snag on. I did run some aluminum wire through my MIG (without actually welding) and as Jim said if you keep the cable straight it feeds fine. You have to get the pressure on the feed roller right though to not crush the wire, but not slip. They also sell those little baby bottles that you can fill will 100% argon for aluminum. It would be good for small brackets and stuff. I wouldn't trust it for chassis parts.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I just did something I have been meaning to do for a while now, weigh the 11" motor.

Well, deciding to use the 11" over the 12" should produce a weight saving, that is to be expected but how much of a weight saving?

Now allowing for the fact that the 11" has no DE cap, and it currenty only has a bit of MDF to allow for testing and to keep the insides protected, the weight is a little lower then it would be given an aluminium DE and a bearing and bearing cap.

So:
The 12" motor weighs 114kg.
The 9" motor weighs 43kg
The 11" motor weighs in at a whopping 101.6kg and that will only increase when the DE cap and bearing is added. Maybe I should plan to change the CE cap to aluminium too.

I have done a weight calculation and I will need to be careful to keep within weight. At least, if the weight is a problem, I can change the 11" motor for the 9" and save 60kg (that's a whole 'honey'!) or one day get an Agni motor and save even more weight.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Happy New Year!
The AERB is stronger and lighter than welded aluminum.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

So I would assume a process of making up some sort of box section where the joints would be lapped, epoxied and riveted together.

I can see how I can make a chassis frame that way but not sure about the swing arm, especially where the arm joins to the big split tube that clamps the hub.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> So I would assume a process of making up some sort of box section where the joints would be lapped, epoxied and riveted together.
> 
> I can see how I can make a chassis frame that way but not sure about the swing arm, especially where the arm joins to the big split tube that clamps the hub.


If you used something like an aluminum I-beam you may be able to do that. Cut a section of the center out on the end leaving tabs that could be hammerformed to accept the hub carrier. It could then be riveted and bonded into the open "C" of the arm.

The problem I see is knowing the properties of the aluminum and how they will translate to the application, without proper structural analysis (of the components and the assembly). Most of the steel stuff we fabricate, and aluminum parts that are machined and welded, are over-engineered for safety. I would do a LOT of research on that before attempting it. Material properties, temperatures, spacing/size of the rivets, amount and application of the epoxy, etc, etc. There isn't the same knowledge base of DIY type projects to draw from to make decisions. I really wanted an all aluminum chassis (and cage) on the Inhaler, but figured with my performance goals I was better trusting the NHRA's existing (steel) specifications.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

You want either a central box section or rocker box sections like the Lotus Elise.
This gives you 10,000Lbs torsional rigidity.
Lotus would use thinner aluminum pieces but it is the thinnest aluminum that can be extruded.
The chassis is built way over-kill!
Regards,
Giovanni


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I like that rivet.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Those are the sorts of things that worry me about bonding aluminium.

Aluminium comes in a range of flavours and I couldn't hazard a guess at what would be sufficient. Steel is no problem, I've worked with it for so long that I have good experience of what is acceptable without recourse to complicated analysis.

I have just been reading up on the Lotus method suggested by Giovanni.
I couldn't do it. 
Lotus use extrusions with shaped tongue and grooved joints to increase surface area, special adhesives, activators, and surface treatments to ensure the bond is sound. Then they add friction welded/threaded rivets to prevent peel. To facilitate accident repair, because the process is so difficult to recreate outside of the factory, Lotus include additional bolt holes for the later addition of bolted repair patches.

My workshop is more a blacksmiths shop then a technical laboratory so I reckon it would be beyond me. Also I wouldn't be able to prove the strength of the joints to satisfy inspection.

I will either do a 'cut and shut' on the Honda swing arm for someone else to weld or make a steel one.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

sunworksco said:


> You want either a central box section or rocker box sections like the Lotus Elise.
> This gives you 10,000Lbs torsional rigidity.
> Lotus would use thinner aluminum pieces but it is the thinnest aluminum that can be extruded.
> Regards,
> Giovanni


Sorry Giovanni, we were talking about welding an aluminium swing arm, not the chassis frame.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I have spoken with the Ejot rivet factory rep and they have a variety of AERB fasteners but developed a few specific rivets just for the Lotus chassis. Alcoa was involved in the bonding/rivet development, as well.
The screw-rivets keep the bonded aluminum from shearing off.
There are much better epoxies since Lotus starting bonding and room temperature bonding works very well. Lotus uses oven bonding at around 300 degrees. The parts, to be epoxy-bonded, should be anodized or acid pickled, then dried.
Lotus came up with this because the extrusion dies are so inexpensive and can be made in one day and extruded the next day!
This is low volume genius, at it's best.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Like I said.
The Lotus chassis is way over-kill.
You need minimal surface area, especially with a lightweight reverse-trike.
You can use standard extruded aluminum box sections.
The single-sided swing-arm can be attached with a cnc machined bracket.
Here are the Aptera and Blackjack Zero swing-arms.
Regards,
Giovanni
P.S.,
Aptera has gone with a front-wheel-drive system for better steering and handling, especially in cornering.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for those images, that clarifies your thought process a lot.
Those look tig welded though but I can see what you are getting at.

That belt drive arm looks good, still not sure I could make one with my facilities or budget though.

I could probably mig weld it in thin guage steel sheet though instead of the 1/4" stuff I would use for the tractor.


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## briogio (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm totally with Woodsmith here, steel rarely cracks, can be bent and welded easily, or sleeved and bolted. You can make an exhaust pipe frame very easily, and cheaply, just go to your local muffler shop with dimension and bends, they'll make you something up quick and cheap to build a prototype with and then you can get fancy, light, and unreliable later!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeah - I'm with Woodsmith and briogio

Steel (mild) is nice soft stuff that stretches before it fails

Aluminium is tricky - bonding aluminium is very tricky (for amateurs)

I am making a mild steel frame - if I had the nerve I would make a composite frame

How about that Woody - make the shape you want out of foam and then mummify it by wrapping glass and resin bandages around it - I remember riding a bike made that way in the 80s

Anywhere where you are worried about the stresses add more bandages!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> Y...if I had the nerve I would make a composite frame
> 
> How about that Woody - make the shape you want out of foam and then mummify it by wrapping glass and resin bandages around it - I remember riding a bike made that way in the 80s
> 
> Anywhere where you are worried about the stresses add more bandages!


It's really just as complicated as the idea of bonded aluminum. I've been working with composites for a couple decades, and still haven't attemped any serious structural parts - because I understand the materials well enough to know where and how they fatigue and fail. The most critical apsect is resin to cloth ratio, and you're not going to get it close enough with a conventional wet-out hand lay-up. I'm pretty good, if I do say so myself, and I can't match vacuum bagging. Cloth direction, seams, etc, all play a part in what's going to happen to that part over time, and under pressure. Chassis parts should be bagged at the least, and preferrably baked. Precious few have access to a real autoclave, but some type of heat-assisted curing should be implemented. Otherwise the parts cure over a period of months. If there is too much resin and/or it's not fully cured, it will change shape. Not what you want on a close tolerance, critical alignment, part! 

Foam-core composites are a lot of fun though. There's almost no limit to what you can build.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Aside from the weight there are a lot of 'pluses' for welded steel fabrication.

Using pre bent exhaust pipe is one route but I will probably go with square sections for ease of making and setting up. Also I don't have access to a tube bender to play with and would rapidly use up any pre bent stock. With round tube it would look nice as a one piece with nice bends and no joints.

Untimately this will be controlled more by budget (or lack of) and MSVA requirements then prettiness in the main.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I just found this, neat!





Pity it wouldn't be legal here though.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Woodsmith, 
all this talk of Lotus reminded me of Colin Chapmans experience. He had designed the Elite in the fifties which had a glassfibre body structure mounted onto a chassis. Both were structural components to a large extent and depended on each other. The legend goes that they head so many problems in the early days of the Elite that Chapman designed the Lotus 7 to generate some immediate income. The 7 uses 1" steel box section for most of the chassis. It's light, easy to align, easy to weld and Caterham still make 7s to almost exactly the same design 50 years later. 

Andrew.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I just found this, neat!
> ...Pity it wouldn't be legal here though.


Pretty cool, makes me want to drive mine _someday_... 

Why wouldn't it be legal there?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duxuk said:


> Woodsmith,
> all this talk of Lotus reminded me of Colin Chapmans experience. He had designed the Elite in the fifties which had a glassfibre body structure mounted onto a chassis. Both were structural components to a large extent and depended on each other. The legend goes that they head so many problems in the early days of the Elite that Chapman designed the Lotus 7 to generate some immediate income. The 7 uses 1" steel box section for most of the chassis. It's light, easy to align, easy to weld and Caterham still make 7s to almost exactly the same design 50 years later.
> 
> Andrew.


Yeah, I like the 7 and it would be a pretty good EV.
I'd like to build in a similar way, just 1" square tube to make a space frame with stressed panels to add rigidity.
Given the weight of my 'must have ' components I will need to keep the chassis very light and stiff, just like the 7.



toddshotrods said:


> Pretty cool, makes me want to drive mine _someday_...
> 
> Why wouldn't it be legal there?


For an unregistered electric trike it would be too heavy, too powerful and too fast. Beyond that it need to meet road vehicle regulations.

So it fails on:
No front mudguards
Lighting not to legal standards and positions
No rear suspension
Unsuitable windscreen material
No wipers
No demister
No seatbelt
Sharp exposed edges (needs to be greater then 2.5mm radius)
Exposed suspension (needs to prevent contact of hard objects by 100mm sphere)
Mirrors too small
Exposed chain on rear wheel
No front number plate
No correct fitting for rear number plate

Those are just the things I can think of with out refering to the book.

If you have a quick look at this pdf document you will see what the MSVA inspection requires.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MSVA%202010%20.pdf


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...For an unregistered electric trike it would be too heavy, too powerful and too fast. Beyond that it need to meet road vehicle regulations...
> 
> ...Those are just the things I can think of with out refering to the book...
> 
> ...If you have a quick look at this pdf document you will see what the MSVA inspection requires...


That sucks.  Reminds me how much I take for granted living here. I just read the table of contents, and skimmed a dozen or so pages - wow!  It's all doable, but so strange to me coming from Ohio. I thought the California people here had a lot of red tape to deal with. No comparison.

Anyway, enough of that. I agree with building in steel, and 1" square plus structural "skin" sounds great.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah, the regulations suck but I can see why they are there.

Back in the early 90's when I built my 6x6 Land Rover I got away with so many changes there was almost nothing left untouched, certainly nothing that really mattered for safety, and yet it was never inspected. I had the chance to buy my truck back a few years ago but it could never be made road legal now.

The regulations do stop the back street bodgers and cut and shut jobs but it also stops a lot of real enthusiasts who could build a better and safer car then the factory.

Still, there are many countries with even tighter regulations.
The IVA we have for cars is even more strict then the MSVA hence I am not even going to try to build a car anymore.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_*So it fails on:
No front mudguards
Lighting not to legal standards and positions
No rear suspension
Unsuitable windscreen material
No wipers
No demister
No seatbelt
Sharp exposed edges (needs to be greater then 2.5mm radius)
Exposed suspension (needs to prevent contact of hard objects by 100mm sphere)
Mirrors too small
Exposed chain on rear wheel
No front number plate
No correct fitting for rear number plate

Those are just the things I can think of with out refering to the book.*_

*Yeah, the regulations suck *

Why do the regulation suck? 
If this is going to go on the public roads what is wrong with these requirements?

I personally like having the regulations all written down so that they can be challenged and so that I know what is required.

The regulations here were written by the NZHRA - 

from what I have seen the MSVA regs are actually quite well written and not difficult to understand

The states with no regulations - what would happen if you were involved in an accident? - would the bojo who drove into you be able to point to some of the things above and claim that because of that it was your fault?

My car is 25mm square section steel with 1mm skins - 
Another advantage
This means that I can change my mind and easily re-design - much more difficult in other materials

_*It's light, easy to align, easy to weld and Caterham still make 7s to almost exactly the same design 50 years later. *_

The Caterham 7 is possibly a little too light - my friend who used to hillclimb hers had to replace the chassis every year, most of the other 7 clones are a bit heavier with a few more tubes


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> *Yeah, the regulations suck *


Please, if you are going to quote me try not to quote out of context.



Woodsmith said:


> Yeah, the regulations suck but I can see why they are there.


They suck because much of it is common sense in creating a roadworthy and safe vehicle.
BUT, I can see why they are there.


Woodsmith said:


> The regulations do stop the back street bodgers and cut and shut jobs but it also stops a lot of real enthusiasts who could build a better and safer car then the factory.


However, some of the regulations are very hard to work to because they don't easily allow for amateur builds or for all cases of possible design options.
For example:
From this thread.


Woodsmith said:


> I have just looked up the latest ammendment to the MSVA and reverse trikes are still accommodated as motor tricycle alongside heavy quadracycles both using car type steering systems with two wheels at the front in so far as the construction is concerned.
> 
> You can down load the MSVA inspection manual here alongside the guide and application form. It is a 2.01mb PDF and the [car type] steering is mentioned at the top of page 112 section 14/4.
> 
> ...


The MSVA allows for car type steering on a motor tricycle but defines it as having a single front wheel making a reverse trike, possibly, unregistable as there would be no catagory for it.

This is a point that Poohstyx says excludes reverse trikes but Duxuk rejects as he recently got his reverse trike road legal.

The civil servants in the system have no definative answer to these discrepancies and so sucessful registration can depend on the individual processing the forms.

That makes the regulations suck BUT I can see why they are there.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_The civil servants in the system have no definative answer to these discrepancies and so sucessful registration can depend on the individual processing the forms._

*That makes the regulations suck* in spades

This is where the experimental aircraft (UK) system and the New Zealand NZHRA system scores - the individual processing the vehicle is an enthusiast - the flip side is it is much harder to pull a fast one!

Reading the blogs of people putting kit cars through the UK system - they seem to be encountering enthusiasts who want to help them - not jobsworths 

When I helped a friend register his Marlin (1980s) the officials were very helpful 

"Now you can change the chassis number which means I have lots of forms to process and you pay money OR you can indelibly write the old number on the new chassis which saves you money and me time - which will it be boys?"

My experience with civil servants has been good - I have got to say that because I now work for the council!


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Won't the Spyder Motorcycle throw a wrench in the works of those Regulations ?? It's a reverse Trike or Tadpole Trike. ?


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

my experience of MSVA was that the examiners were enthusiasts who wanted to help you to get on the road. They do, however, work to the letter of the rules, but the rules are clearly written. The main thing that peeved me was that my early draft of the regulations had various amature built exemptions, which were later discarded. So I built my trike with two handlebar mounted brake levers and it passed the stopping power test but failed because the current regs. state that you must have a single foot controlled pedal operating all wheel brakes. It took me two further attempts at little cost but vast inconvenience to get my approval for a less safe, harder to drive vehicle.

Once you have the Ministers Approval Certificate the DVLA cannot stop you registering, but they'll drive you to the limit. When I registered my first trike the office had about 20 employees, now it has about 150, all intent on getting in your way. Nothing was done until I phoned. Get this-you cannot phone directly or Email. You phone DVLA Swansea and they take 15 minutes to take down every detail. They phone your DVLA local office and someone calls you back to take down exactly the same details. They tell you that the resident expert will have to call you back, (on 2 occasions he was unavailable due to leave and sickness). Eventually he calls you back to ask the same questions a third time! If you don't nag nothing will happen. You may not follow anything up for 10 days. There is no way that I could find to speed thins up. 
At the end ofthe day though if you get the MAC from the enthusiactic people at VOSA (another acronym to try to fool you) then you will eventually get on the road after the DVLA inspection where someone with no knowledge or enthusiasm meets you on "neutral ground" to look at your vehicle and ask a few irrelevant question.

EASY!!!!!

Just remember they can't stop you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew

PS this was going to be about 20 words long but even 10 months later I still get a rush of blood to my head when I remember it..........where's that Valium............


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Duncan said:


> _The civil servants in the system have no definative answer to these discrepancies and so sucessful registration can depend on the individual processing the forms._
> 
> *That makes the regulations suck* in spades
> 
> This is where the experimental aircraft (UK) system and the New Zealand NZHRA system scores - the individual processing the vehicle is an enthusiast - the flip side is it is much harder to pull a fast one!


I would have to agree with you, if luck is involved in passing the system really sucks.

In NZ you have some type of enthusiast board that reviews changes? That could be great way to get a fair shake. 

In Washington state we have a booklet of state rules and a State Patrol inspection if you are doing a ground up build (not based on an existing vehicle.) For the most part the rules are lax and there are no regular inspections except for smog tests. Vehicle modifications are almost never the cause of accidents and even poor maintenance is rarely the cause. The State Patrol or local law enforcement can pull you over if they see a violation. I've been running that buggy in my avatar for years without an outside rear view mirror but it hasn't bothered them. I do get the plate ran almost every year for the lack of seat belts. Since it's a '64 frame they aren't required.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_In NZ you have some type of enthusiast board that reviews changes?_

Back about ten years ago (15?) a group of car enthusiasts saw the writing on the wall and decided that at some stage the government would legislate to control modified cars on the public roads.

They decided on a pre-emptative strike and made the transport minister an offer - they would set up the certification system for modified cars - free!

The minister a sensible man realized that this be minimal costs for the taxpayers and would be like employing an experienced poacher as a gamekeeper.

The New Zealand Hot Rod Association (in association with other motor clubs) wrote the bible (New Zealand Hobby Car Technical Manual) and provides the inspectors - the charges for the documents cover the costs

Just this year the NZHRA has sold the bible to the government - they retain consultative rights - so that it can become an actual government document and be quoted in legislation

The NZHRA is negotiating selling the bible to their Australian counterparts,

I wonder if some of you guys in America could use a similar strategy - if you don't then its the bureaucrats (or worse the motor industry) who will write your legislation


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> _In NZ you have some type of enthusiast board that reviews changes?_...
> ...I wonder if some of you guys in America could use a similar strategy - if you don't then its the bureaucrats (or worse the motor industry) who will write your legislation


We have SEMA. They aggressively fight for our rights through legislation on national and state levels. They have a whole set of laws that they have been successful in getting states to adopt all or in part. Ohio (which is a really free state for custom vehicles) gets better every so often, due in large part to SEMA's work. They are working on adopting a part of it now that will allow scratch-built custom vehicles to be registered as the year/make/model they most resemble. I'm hoping and praying that they get it passed before I register the Inhaler because then it will officially be a 1923 Ford!  I would only have to have on it what a 1923 Ford would have had...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

EVfun said:


> ...In Washington state we have a booklet of state rules and a State Patrol inspection if you are doing a ground up build (not based on an existing vehicle.) For the most part the rules are lax and there are no regular inspections except for smog tests...


Ditto with Ohio - sorry for the highjack Woody.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_*We have SEMA.*_

SEMA is a trade organisation - not as bad as bureaucrats or the motor industry but not as good as a hobbyist group - their aims and ideals are not necessarily yours

Lax legislation is not always a good idea as it provokes a move towards tight legislation


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've not had direct experience of the MSVA process but do know of a few people who have tried (been tried to the limit) with the IVA (previously SVA) for cars and found the system less then helpful.
Often the VOSA will say an existing chasss number and MOT is acceptable but DVLA will keep requesting a new Chassis number IVA inspection but the IVA inspector will refuse as VOSA say it is not required and refer back to the DVLA...
And so it goes round and round until the car is broken and sold for parts instead to cut the losses.

I will proceed and see what happens. Andrew can always give me a few pointers as he has been there before and is close enough for me to use the same inspection centre.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Inspect this > Happy NEW YEAR !!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Dave, Happy new year to you too!

See, New year's eve party and I am still here spam hunting. That's dedication to the forum!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Thanks Dave, Happy new year to you too!
> 
> See, New year's eve party and I am still here spam hunting. That's dedication to the forum!


Woody,

Yah, I'm havng the same kind of New Years party. Just scrolling around the forums trying to stay entertained. 

You just need to get that trike done with the motorized honey seat. You'll never lack for a date.

Yoy passed the magic hour yet?
Be well,
Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Happy New Year Woody!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Yah, I'm havng the same kind of New Years party. Just scrolling around the forums trying to stay entertained.
> 
> ...


We went out for a meal with friends and then came home to host an online party so we did have some fun.

I was just checking for spam while we were both online.
Honey is just as keen on the honey seat as Todd is I think!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Honey is just as keen on the honey seat as Todd is I think!


Sounds like the honey is a real winner.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Honey is just as keen on the honey seat as Todd is I think!





Jimdear2 said:


> Sounds like the honey is a real winner.


I think I might get one of those this year.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I think I might get one of those this year.


Is that a resolution? I wish you well with it.


I am really hoping I get a rolling chassis under the trike this year. On top of that I also want to get the tracto running again and also get an EV go kart made for Dad.

My resolution though is to lose about 45lb from my middle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Is that a resolution? I wish you well with it.
> ...


Thanks. I never really thought of it that way, but yeah I guess it is! I actually did decide in the waning weeks of 2010 that I want to start dating again, so... Bring on the honey!!! 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I am really hoping I get a rolling chassis under the trike this year. On top of that I also want to get the tracto running again and also get an EV go kart made for Dad.
> 
> My resolution though is to lose about 45lb from my middle.


Sounds like you have a full plate for the New Year (pun intended).  I piled mine pretty high as well: Tailfeather's body made smooth (paint if possible, but at least smoothed out), Inhaler at least looking like the renderings (fully assembled) if not running, first college degree (AA) under my belt, and a decision on whether I am going to go for a BA now or later.

Here's to full agendas...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have found a pair of 16" wire wheels with 7" wide rims. That allows for a 235 85R 16 tyre at 31" diameter.
My current rear wheel is only 170mm wide and 25.5" diameter.

Just thinking of designing my rear swing arm to take a tyre that size.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

So a quick (well it took me a while and it still isn't quite right) play on AutoCad and I have added a big wheel on the back of the trike and modified the swing arm design to fit.

I think it looks a bit big, a bit like a KMX trike.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I think it looks a bit big, a bit like a KMX trike.


Actually those proportions are what gave the inspiration for the sexy Italian-style body sketch I did a while back. You had the two tiny front wheels mocked up with (I think) the motorcycle rear tire on a wire (rhyme intended ). It's how you blend them together. If you choose to go with it, you can add _feminine_ curves to the front of the body without them being too big, then stretch the bodywork more tightly over the rear tire for a muscular look. Big-n-littles are also classic American hot rod ware.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yeah, that's what I was hoping for.
When I got the front suspension I was looking for Midget ones as the wheels are only 13" and so I could have had even smaller tyres on them. 

Instead I have MGB suspension and using 145 65 14 tyres I get 21.5" diameter. The big tyre I would use would be a 235 85 16 at 31.5" diameter. I could go as far as a 255 85 16 and get 33" diameter but that would weigh as much as the motor!

It would mean using a big 4x4 tyre, something with a mainly road pattern tread. That shouldn't be difficult given so few 4x4s ever leave the tarmac anyway. Also it would give that big rubber look of the old school hotrods.

thinking also of that other Batmobile look!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've made a bit!


Before I could start making the swing arm I needed to get or make a ring to clamp the rear wheel hub from the Honda swing arm. It needed to be 105mm internal diameter and 70mm wide.

Today, being the first day back at college I dropped into my friendly scrap yard for a look around.
As luck would have it I found a bit of pipe 15" long that measured exactly 105mm bore and 5mm wall thickness.

So tonight, as teacher training wasn't running, I spent a couple of hours in the workshop.
I needed to recreate one of these to clamp the hub.









As the pipe was exactly the right size I tried my new saw and cut off a length 70mm long.
Then using the weld seam for alignment I welded on a couple of bits of 10mm scrap that were left over from cutting the hub flanges for the tractor front hubs. That meant I got to play with my other new toy, the mig welder.
I then welded on a length of 20mm bore gas pipe. 

So I got a huge lump of welding on the side of the 105mm ring.
All this was because the only suitable bolt I had to clamp the ring was a M20x150! (Not going to be that light weight I think!  )

After a bit of a clean up I then slit the ring open through the line of the weld seam to save grinding out the bore.

Instant hub clamp!


























I think that should be strong enough to hold it!

I will either grind the bolt tube back a little so there is enough thread for a nyloc or I will weld the nut to the tube.

Now I only need to start making the rest of the swing arm to weld onto it.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

About time you got back to work.

I was just about to get the cat o nine whip with the metal tips out of the closet .

With all the new toys you had to play with I can't believe it took so long.

That is a lovely job considering the raw materials you started with. No fussy machine work needed either.

Keep it up (remember that whips still in the closet) 

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I just have too much on my plate, Jim, I should have been working on the commission as it will pay when it is done but tonight I just wanted a bit of fun.

I will do a load on the commission this weekend and hopefully get it out of the way this month. Then no more furniture for a while as I will have too much teacher training work to do.

I like the simple approach to the build, at least at this stage, as it uses what I have and saves money.
I am tempted to add a bit more weld to it to fill in some of the internal corners and then blend it in with a sander. Alternatively I might use metal filler to make it look nice prior to painting.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A bit of cut and shut kerf bending tonight.

I started to fabricate the swing arm using a length of 80mm x 40mm x 2mm box section tube from a previous scrap yard scavenge.

Completely by eye (cos I just fancied taking a chance at it) I set the saw to cut some angled notches in both sides of the tube and put in an 'S' bend.









I cleaned up the paint and welded it.









I will cut a couple of pieces of 'S' shaped plates to plate over the top and bottom surfaces to add a bit more strength. Then I will get some more sanding discs and clean it up to get a smooth and paint free finish before tack welding it to the hub clamp ring.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Pah! Lost the bidding on those 16x7 wire wheels! Too busy emailing the honey to increase my last bid.
Oh well, perhaps a massively tall wheel isn't a good idea. If I had a flat the chassis would hit the ground before the rim!

I may, at some point, get a wide rim laced on so I can get car tyres to fit. The existing rear rim is 15x4.5 and there isn't much modern rubber that will fit a rim that narrow.

I am thinking of a pair of these rose joints for the swing arm pivot.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180564425698&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
And also these rubber boots for them.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190248333210&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Not sure if I should get the M20 size or if M16 size will do.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: I want to build a trike*



Woodsmith said:


> ...I am thinking of a pair of these rose joints for the swing arm pivot...


If I was still building Scratch (something I actually dream about on occasion) I would probably use rod ends (rose joint for you ) on my swingarm. I was thinking about using them on the other end of the arm though, to align the wheel (was planning on a tensioner to keep the belt adjusted). Should be strong enough. How much side loading would there be on a reverse trike's swing arm?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I suppose if there is 650kg gross weight and about 1/3 on the rear wheel and I was tail sliding it about and kit a kerb...
The CoG would be about 1700mm from the wheel an the swing arm will be 650mm long and the two rose joints will be 650mm apart.

I don't know. I've had a long day followed by a scotch.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was looking for dashboard images for anotehr forum and came across this.








This is the look and feel I want from the driver's seat. I just don't think I can get legal like that given all the hard surfaces.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Reversing switch - Making one?*

I will be using an electric reversing switch to make the motor, and hence the trike, go backwards.

I have been looking around for a reversing contactor set that will handle around 300A at 96V but I've not found one I want to afford yet.

However, I had a thought. The rating on the contacts would be to allow making and breaking 300A flowing at 96V but that isn't what I really need.
I figured that as there would be no current flow at all when reverse is selected I don't need to be able to break the current flow, just to carry it across the closed contacts.

On old milkfloats there was just a barrel shaped changeover switch with four contacts that allowed a lever to mechanically switch the coils into reverse.









Could this be done again?
I was thinking of getting some tufnol or phenolic, or maybe even some oak, and making a switch using copper bolt heads for the contacts and the terminals and 10mmx20mm copper strip for the sliding contacts on a barrel that is rotated 90deg for forward and reverse with a lever or handle. The contacts will need to be sprung to maintain a good contact pressure so the bolt head contacts could include a spring in assembly.

If this can be done without any electrical problems then I would modify it to include a microswitch to, firstly, cut the controller upon movement of the lever and, secondly, to 'rig' the throttle pot so that speed is limited.

The lever could offer three positions for the microswitch. Forward fast, forward slow and reverse slow.

What do you think (apart from 'stop being tight and buy a reversing contactor')?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*



Woodsmith said:


> For my trike I will be using an electric reversing switch to make the motor, and hence the trike, go backwards.
> 
> I have been looking around for a reversing contactor set that will handle around 300A at 96V but I've not found one I want to afford yet.


Hi Woody. Just get a range switch or a polarity switch from weld power supply of suitable current range. One of the industrial ones are higher rated. If you know anyone who works around this stuff, u should be able to get one for nothing off of a scrapper. I have one that I used for moving my truck around before I installed my controller using 12 or maybe 24 volts...cant recall. I have a pic but.... it's on my other PC.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

That's a good option.
What sort of switch layouts are they?

I would need it to be a double pole change over. I figured that welder switches would be single pole with about 6-7 ways.


One thing I figured with making one is to make it look like a big old mechanical valve lever sticking out of a rugged box.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*



Woodsmith said:


> That's a good option.
> What sort of switch layouts are they?
> 
> I would need it to be a double pole change over. I figured that welder switches would be single pole with about 6-7 ways.
> ...


Polarity switches are single pole... range switches usually have a lot of contacts and can often be set up with movable links to create double pole contacts. Lemme see if I can find a pic one on Google.

here's one..kinda ugly...but u get the idea... http://s385.photobucket.com/albums/oo296/tanner81467/?action=view&current=DSCI0017-3.jpg


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*



DIYguy said:


> here's one..kinda ugly...but u get the idea... http://s385.photobucket.com/albums/oo296/tanner81467/?action=view&current=DSCI0017-3.jpg


That's the one!

Put that in a box with a big shiny steampunk lever sticking out...


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

lol, Good luck Woody..........

BTW, that switch was for sale on a site....


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*



Woodsmith said:


> For my trike I will be using an electric reversing switch to make the motor, and hence the trike, go backwards.
> 
> I have been looking around for a reversing contactor set that will handle around 300A at 96V but I've not found one I want to afford yet.
> 
> ...


Woody,

I don't see why not. If anyone has the tools and skills to build this manual switch it's you. 

If you would rather go with tried and proven, look on eBay for an Albright SW202 reversing contactor. I found mine cheap (under $50.00) because of an odd coil voltage, that was easy to fix with a cheap DC to DC.

Another alternative is to look at the reversing relay set used on snow plow pump motors. They use four relays. They might be able to handle the reversed current at half speed but you would still need a good main contactor for the High Current.

One last thought, check with the dismantalers who originally scrapped the milk floats. They may have saved a switch or two. Maybe Simon knows



Woodsmith said:


> I was thinking of getting some tufnol or phenolic, or maybe even some oak, and making a switch using copper bolt heads for the contacts and the terminals and 10mmx20mm copper strip for the sliding contacts on a barrel that is rotated 90deg for forward and reverse with a lever or handle. The contacts will need to be sprung to maintain a good contact pressure so the bolt head contacts could include a spring in assembly.
> 
> If this can be done without any electrical problems then I would modify it to include a microswitch to, firstly, cut the controller upon movement of the lever and, secondly, to 'rig' the throttle pot so that speed is limited.
> 
> The lever could offer three positions for the microswitch. Forward fast, forward slow and reverse slow.


Sounds like a plan.



Woodsmith said:


> What do you think (apart from 'stop being tight and buy a reversing contactor')?


Get on with it


----------



## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

This idea is only to get your juices flowing, Woody.

On the Portable Sawmill I built, there is a chain drive to move the sawhead up and back on the track. The drive motor is 3/4 HP @ 12V DC. Yeah, it's not a puller. 

Ennyhoo, I bought a drum switch, from Surplus Center. I had to do some fancy thinking, but, that's what I use to forward-reverse the motor. A 5k ohm pot is connected to the controller, to run the feed speed. The Drum switch is about 2½" X 2½" X 4½". Rated at 40 or 50 Amps. Just a thought on sizes.


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## farmkid4 (Jan 4, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> I was looking for dashboard images for anotehr forum and came across this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a dashboard! man a took a while to read the majority of this thread  keep up the good work.
Kevin


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Kevin, 
My threads, like Toddshotrods, tend to get very long with ideas and chatter about a lot of semi related stuff while ideas get tossed about.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers Kevin,
> My threads, like Toddshotrods, tend to get very long with ideas and chatter about a lot of semi related stuff while ideas get tossed about.


Hey! I resemble that remark!


----------



## farmkid4 (Jan 4, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers Kevin,
> My threads, like Toddshotrods, tend to get very long with ideas and chatter about a lot of semi related stuff while ideas get tossed about.


lol thats ok i enjoyed the reading. Got me thinking about projects i want to build.

You mentioned building an e go kart just out of curiosity what size motor do you think you would use? Im toying with the idea of one myself.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

farmkid4 said:


> You mentioned building an e go kart just out of curiosity what size motor do you think you would use? Im toying with the idea of one myself.


Ahh, that's for my Dad. I have a 6" pump motor that I want to rip open for him to play with to see if it is usable but I could give him the 7" one from my tractor and switch to the 9" or even the 12" motor that I have. I may need to then get an even bigger tractor transmission though.

It is just for a bit of fun and so I wouldn't go too big on the kart, Dad is 75 now, and I will probably be looking for a small controller for it maybe a 24-36V golf buggy one.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

Been there, done it!
When you drove my trike I had wired across the reversing switch for safety. (It was homemade after all!). When I went into it to wire it out the contacts (mild steel) were not scorched at all. They were held good and tight by the flex in an 8"x6" sheet of marine ply of about 1cm thickness. It definately worked well but I lost confidence in it's long term reliability. My ICE trikes have never had reverse so I have got used to life without it. It is now, however, a legal requirement for all newly registered trikes in the UK. An alternative is to rig up any old starter motor powered by your 12V battery, though in an EV this would only add complexity. 
As was said above, you could probably get away with a lower rated reversing contactor from Albright etc. since you would only switch it at zero amps, unless you fancy doing stunt shows, slamming it into reverse at full throttle until the tyre melts!

Andrew.


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

Woody,

Check around Golf Courses, Golf Cart repair shops and scrappers that might have oldies around the yard. I discovered, in my research for something else, that a lot of the older ones used a mechanical reversing switch just like the one you discribe or similar to the one in the photo.

Hope this helps

Of course finding one would take all of the fun out of making one.

Jim


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Reversing switch - Making one?*

This is part of the issue, I will have to have a reverse to be legal and also I will have a bodied trike which I couldn't 'waddle' backwards. As such it might even go over weight and have to be IVA'ed as a car and I wouldn't be able to push it even if I had planned to.

I definately won't be doing stunt shows, Andrew so that won't matter.


I also want something simple and failsafe in use, ie: I can fix it at the road side.

Steampunk is a prefered type of look, within reason, but wouldn't pass inspection so I will compromise and make something that looks nice but doesn't have the modern thing of a small control to operate a big control to effect an action.

I'm going to look at the old switch gear I have and see what parts I have available and then look at what bits of wood and metal I can use.

I don't know if we have golf buggy junk yards here, Jim, nor milkfloat ones. Tram or train switches would be too big I think.

Winch solonoids would work but will be the last resort to avoid the 'CLUNK CLUNK' noise when a little switch is toggled.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have a drawing of the DE cap I want to make for the 11" motor. It is still all square edges as I've not figured out how to draw nice radiused edges or to chamfer some parts but I can do all that by hand to finish it.

CdRsKULL has agreed to have a look at the drawing for me to see about machining it so I have forwarded it to him as a dwg file. Thank you.

Hopefully, I should be able to then work out the chain drive sprocket location.

I am going to see if I can get away with only having a single bearing on the pinion gear sleeve. The shaft has an M8 hole tapped in the end and I was thinking of making a plug to go in the end of the sleeve that I can then use to bolt the sleeve rigidly onto the shaft.
If it doesn't hold it rigidly enough then I will sort out a second bit of machining to provide an outboard bearing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I have a drawing of the DE cap I want to make for the 11" motor...


Me like.  What's the purple section, a bearing retaining cap?




Woodsmith said:


> ...It is still all square edges as I've not figured out how to draw nice radiused edges or to chamfer some parts but I can do all that by hand to finish it...


Search for some tutorials on the web. I can't imagine it's that hard to at least radius the edges. It's usually a matter of clicking the function or task you'd like to perform (fillet, radius, etc), selecting the edges, and hitting enter.

CNC or manual machining?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, the purple bit is to retain the bearing. The bearing is 23mm thick and the plate I have is only 19mm. I could have pushed the bearing deeper inside the motor to make the front flush but I wanted the bearing closer to the sprocket and to leave the airducts in the armature clear.

I should be learning how to radius and fillet edges in 3d and how to rotate an outline at college in a few weeks.

Not sure how it would be made, I will wait to hear.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Been playing with the AutoCad again and got some nice radius edges and some chamfers.

I am thinking of M8 countersunk allen screws to hold the bearing retainer in place and then some M10 button headed allen screws to fit the DE cap to the motor frame. One of two of those will also hold torque retaining straps.

I have found the screw in A2 stainless but don't know how those are for strength, they should be ok for corrosion resistance though I think but don;t know if they are made of cheese.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That looks really good Woody! I guess the radius on the insides of the cooling holes is to smooth the airflow's transition into the motor, huh?!


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Looks like you're getting the hang of that CAD package. I still favour cardboard aided design myself, but I have a demo copy of TurboCAD that I'll get round to tackling one day.

You may already know this, but I've found that stainless screws can bind up badly in aluminium. I give them a good coating of copper slip first. They're also damned expensive when you get to larger sizes.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That looks really good Woody! I guess the radius on the insides of the cooling holes is to smooth the airflow's transition into the motor, huh?!


I think airflow will be from the comm end as the fan won't get in the way of the chain drive. I want the outsides of the holes to be radiused too but only on the outer half but haven't figured how to draw that.



MalcolmB said:


> Looks like you're getting the hang of that CAD package. I still favour cardboard aided design myself, but I have a demo copy of TurboCAD that I'll get round to tackling one day.
> 
> You may already know this, but I've found that stainless screws can bind up badly in aluminium. I give them a good coating of copper slip first. They're also damned expensive when you get to larger sizes.


I will bear that in mind, thanks, I wasn't aware of that problem. I have used SS screws on the Tractor motor too, I guess I shall check those when I work on it again. The M10 screws are a little costly but I only need a pack of 10 so not too bad.

I also much prefer the cardboard aided design too but AutoCad is something I need to learn for my teaching.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I want the outsides of the holes to be radiused too but only on the outer half but haven't figured how to draw that...


The easiest way would be to split the whole plate into two pieces, right at the point you want the radius to stop. Radius the holes on one version, but not the other, split and combine the two. You have to take tool size into account, and discuss tool paths with the machinist, to figure out what the transistion will end up being.

Where the two meet there will be a concave radius transition between the parts that should happen naturally as the machine stops short to prevent cutting into the other section. That's assuming a ball mill would be doing the radius. You might have to do a bit of hand finishing on them.

When I did the Inhaler's rear mount, I didn't even model some areas where I wanted a concave radius because I knew it would automaticaly leave one with a 1/2" ball mill doing the final passes. A big part of CAD modeling is understanding the capabilities and limitations of the machines (and machinists), and envisioning how they will produce the parts. I really enjoy that process.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I would be happy with just square edges as I can mill the radii with a hand held router and then finish with hand tools.

I had thought of putting the holes in at an anlge so they fan outwards but again, couldn't figure how to do it and also didn't wna tto make work for the machinest.
CdRsKULL was kind enough to look at taking this on I don't want to take advantage by making it difficult or time consuming.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Another 'find' at the scarp yard.
A Clarke tool chest.








It only has a little surface rust spotting on the lid and all the drawers work. I just need to clean out the dust from inside. There are a few small tools still in it too.
I also picked up a self locking welding pliers for sheet metal and a couple of bags of nuts and bolts. 32kg all in and £10.

My welding helmet arrived today so if I get a chance I will have a test and see how it works. I will then report back on the thread in chat.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, tell me if this is a bad idea.

The Honda sprocket is only 45 tooth and there isn't clearance for anything more then a tooth or three bigger.
The smallest taperlock I can fit on the motor is a 1610 and the smallest sproket I can get is 17 tooth. I really need 15 tooth to get the ratio right but it would mean complications and cost.

Also running like that I would have all my urban running at less then 1000rpm.

A two speed gearbox would be good and, of course, I have one of sorts.


















I can get a simple drive from the motor to the Lada Transfer box and then from the transfer box to the wheel. The 1.2:1 and 2.35:1 ratios and two sets of chain drive would get me good ratios for both fast and slow driving.
I could have a neutral cut out switch in series with the difflock switch so that the controller only works when the drive is connected and also so that I can only reverse in low gear.

It would add a bit of weight and length behind the seats but having measured my honey I am going for two abreast seating closer to the front axle with the batteries ahead to keep the weight nearer the CoG.

Am I mad?


I have started laying down plans for the cockpit. 1200mm long and 900mm wide at the seat narrowing down to 600mm or 700mm at the footwell and pedal box. That will align with the width of the front axle and allow for steering clearance. The batteries can be over and ahead of the axle where it will have least effect on CoG height.
The space over the motor and transfer box will be controller/charger space and above that and behind the seat back pad will be luggage.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Okay, there's some funny stuff going on here. I posted, somehow double posted, tried to fix one, and the other disappeared? 

I said something like: I don't see any problem. It seems like a clean, simple, solution to your gearing issues and you're just adding a transmission of sorts. If you can meet your weight goals, why not? It also seems to make some of your fabrication needs more conventional.

Now watch the other one appear again...


----------



## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

I've been looking at transfer boxes myself as the ratios look very useful for motor drive. It would be good to see how this works out for you. On the other hand, it means added weight and complexity, and that motor doesn't look as if it will be short of torque.

You could just switch to 0.5 inch pitch chain and get a higher ratio that way. 428 sprockets are readily available. I use a 60t alloy 428 sprocket on my bike that came from a Fantic trail bike. If you were worried about durability you could double up.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> I've been looking at transfer boxes myself as the ratios look very useful for motor drive. It would be good to see how this works out for you. On the other hand, it means added weight and complexity, and that motor doesn't look as if it will be short of torque.
> 
> You could just switch to 0.5 inch pitch chain and get a higher ratio that way. 428 sprockets are readily available. I use a 60t alloy 428 sprocket on my bike that came from a Fantic trail bike. If you were worried about durability you could double up.


I was already looking at 10B-2 5/8" duplex chain for strength. I reckon that the motor would snap it easily enough if I were to have too much fun.

The transfer box gives just the right sort of ratios but in the wrong shape. However, I can cope with that.
It wasn't so much the torque as the very slow speed running in town.

What I would really like is an Ian Ashcroft underdrive unit but the price and availability is silly.









It would plug straight onto the motor shaft though the hollow gear wheel and then the gear wheel could be used for a sprocket to take the drive to the rear wheel. That would give it a 1:1 and 2.69:1 reduction.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woody
how much weight are you going to have on that back wheel?

I'm asking because I don't think you need to worry too much about gearing - If you can spin your back wheel then a lower gear won't help!
And that motor looks like it will grunt!

Do the rough numbers and let us know what you find


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Having approximated some guesswork numbers spinning the back wheel isn't a problem. I am just trying to find a way not to be driving around in town using just the first 2% of the throttle.

With the chain drive I can get urban driving will all be at less then 800rpm while top speed will be around 90mph.
Not sure if that would be good for efficiency or ease of driving control.

Also a bit worried about having a 90mph reverse gear when parking!


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woody

_I am just trying to find a way not to be driving around in town using just the first 2% of the throttle._

Don't know which controller you are planning on using but if I'm reading it right the OpenRevolt controller has torque(current) proportional to throttle demand so by gearing down you are making the throttle *more* sensitive not less

When you switch into reverse mode - I think the controller has a feature - or you could switch an additional resistor into your throttle to reduce max demand

_urban driving will all be at less then 800rpm_ 
your fork lift motor will be right in its design zone!


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've had a think about that now, Duncan, and I think you are right and so I will progress without the gearbox as it will mean I can get it built and then worry about gearing if I need it. I can always extend the chassis to fit it after it is built and run and there may be a better gearing solution then too if needed.

I have cut out a floor plan in plywood to get the basic fit of the body. If I keep everything tight lengthways I can get the wheelbase down from my guess of 2500mm to 2300mm. Not a lot of difference but I can then place all the batteries ahead of the front axle to counterbalance the motor to keep the CoG closer to optimum.
Ity needs to be higher off the ground though so I will make up a frame to do that.

















I have now worked out the possible steering wheel position and so I can cut out a dash board and from that build up a foot well.
It will all be plywood mock up for now but I can then form the outline in jointed Ash sticks, some ply and possibly wood or aluminium skin.
The motor is right behind the seats and I want to hide it inside a steel lined cove shape to make it shrapnal proof. I will need to get a bit of steel rolled to a quarter of a pipe unless I can find a bit of 14" bore pipe at the scrap yard.

I figured that once I have a body form I can better plan the shape of the chassis frame underneath it and how it will meet the suspension mounts front and back and cradle the motor.

The narrow foot well will allow brake and accellerator on the right of the centre line for me to sit on the right when driving with a passenger with one foot on each pedal but I could also sit central and have both pedals under my right foot when I am driving solo.
I will need to sort out a sideways adjustable steering column though. I was thinking that a normal height adjustable column turned 90deg would then give me a sideways adjustment instead of a height adjustment.


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I spent a couple of hours this evening model making.
I used a bit of foamboard to rough out the outline of the body tub to see if I like the proportions and the shape.


























The area ahead of the foot well will have the front axle half way along it and then there will be 12 x 160ah cells ahead and behind the axle making up 24 cells. The remaining 6 cells will be distributed over the axle if I can get the clearance or laid down flat over the other two parts of the pack.
That set up will give me a 2500mm wheel base.
There is no nose cone or bonnet/hood yet.

The back of the tub has a cut out underneath that will be profiled to wrap around the front and top of the motor. Then there will be a shaped pod attached to the back of the tub that will form the luggage storage and the fender over the rear wheel to keep it legal. I will need to get a bit more foamboard.

I'm not sure about the door cut out yet so have left it to look at for a while. I don't know if I want to have doors or a low cut area for access. That will also depend on the construction of the chassis frame as to whether there are any side frames or just stiff rails underneath.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Man, you got me. I saw the pic before I started reading and thought I was looking at a full sized body tub! 

How high is the beltline (top edge of the door)? If it's not too high, and you're not going to have a fixed roof, you can build a much more rigid chassis with a step-over design. Of course, running that by the honey is also a good idea. If you want her to enjoy squeezing in beside you she needs to be comfortable with ingress/egress. Her normal style of dress is also important. If she likes to wear skirts and dresses she may want a door. Just things to think about...

Edit - now that I've taken a second look, that would be on heckuva floor if that was a full size body! And, if that's a fireplace behind it, the sun could go on vacation for a week!


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58JsLdb2wHw


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58JsLdb2wHw



It may be all done in birch ply, not sure yet.




toddshotrods said:


> How high is the beltline (top edge of the door)? If it's not too high, and you're not going to have a fixed roof, you can build a much more rigid chassis with a step-over design. Of course, running that by the honey is also a good idea. If you want her to enjoy squeezing in beside you she needs to be comfortable with ingress/egress. Her normal style of dress is also important. If she likes to wear skirts and dresses she may want a door. Just things to think about...


Based on the model the top edge of the door (belt line?) would be about 700mm from the ground. I could step over it but would prefer it lower for stepping over or higher, with wind up glass, of it were a door.
I will rig a board against a seat to see if I can get in it that way without standing on the seat cushion.

My temptation is to have a low step over to increase stiffness in the frame with side rails and then have removable side screens. It wuld be easier to make and lighter.
Ideal would be to have a level belt line with a wind up window to keep out the wind and weather even without a roof.

I will need to make up a model of the pack to see if I can drop the nose cone height a bit. It is a bit square.
I could, as an alternative, make it narrower and taller by stacking the batteries two high.

My honey's normal dress style is cargo pants and fleece top unless she is on her bike or trike then it is spandex and waterproof coat. I don't think she has a dress or skirt, or even any heeled shoes!
Getting ready to go out involves no more then tugging a woolly hat onto her head and then she is ready in whatever she is wearing.
For low maintenance, she doesn't even register.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Based on the model the top edge of the door (belt line?) would be about 700mm from the ground...
> 
> ...My honey's normal dress style is cargo pants and fleece top unless she is on her bike or trike then it is spandex and waterproof coat. I don't think she has a dress or skirt, or even any heeled shoes!
> Getting ready to go out involves no more then tugging a woolly hat onto her head and then she is ready in whatever she is wearing.
> For low maintenance, she doesn't even register.


That's the perfect storm Woody!  You're free to concentrate on the best design choices. I'm kind of approaching it from the other end. I'm designing the Inhaler as I want it, and will then shop for a honey to match!  My 4'8" lady friend is perfect physically, but mentally and emotionally she takes the slow, cautious, route through life - that's like oil-n-water, mixed with me.

700mm is pretty low already. I'd probably lean towards a little dip, for an easy step-over, if I were in your shoes. You can have simple slide-up or flip-up windows, if there isn't room for a roll-up mechanism.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

LOL
My honey seems to be just right at the right time, at least so far.
(_Waves!_ Hi Honey, you found me then? Welcome the mad house!)

The slide up window route would be good, it would only take a simple mechanism to keep them in place. 
I could also design it to take Land Rover Series door tops. That would make weighty but removable side screens for bad weather and save on getting legal glass to fit. I will measure some to see what the size comparison would be. 
I think I have seen some all aluminium ones on Ebay, that would save some weight and remove a potential rust problem.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Despite being ill I managed to drop in at the scrap metal yard on the way back from college today.
I found some possible chassis material. It is a bit heavy but means I can make a rigid ladder chassis to take a wooden body. Six 7' lengths of 50x75x5 unequal angle. I will have to collect it tomorrow when it is dug out from under the tons of steel girders on top, hopefully the chap will remember to put them to one side. If they are too heavy then I can use them elsewhere and buy some thiner wall tube.

In the meantime, Dad and I collected together my scrap metal to take there tomorrow to cash in.
The fork lift axle will go, too heavy for anything (except Todd's and Jim's imagination!). We also cut off the solid tyres from the forklift wheels. Between us it took 2 hours to cut through the 10"x8" thickness of rubber and then lever, jack, thump and curse the tyres off the rims.
I don't think the tyre weighed any less with the rim removed, it still took two of us to lift the rubber off the ground. May only earn £10-£15 per rim in scrap! Hardley worth the effort.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I weighed in 1/3 ton of steel and 20kg of aluminium today so got a nice little bit of cash. I gave it to my Dad, told him to treat Mum.

The lengths of angle are a bit too heavy (decided to only take four as I can use them on the house or another trailer) so I probably won't use them on the trike. I did also pick up a few lengths of 50x2mm square tube. That may get used.
I also found three aluminium machined rings 90mm od, 60mm id, 15mm thick with 8 holes drilled around them. They would make nice bezels around something, what I don't know yet but my artistic eye wouldn't leave them alone.


It is a bit difficult designing a chassis when I don't know what will turn up at the scrap yard.
I may end up having to actually buy new stuff!

That's exhausted me. My doctor says I have a virus so I am off work this week. I figured the scrap yard didn't count as it wasn't work! Still exhausted though so need to take it easy now so I can get better.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...The lengths of angle are *a bit too heavy*... ...so I probably won't use them on the trike...
> 
> ...need to take it easy now so I can get better.


^^^ He's definitely not feeling well! 

Rest up friend, and get well, so you can start throwing sparks!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> ^^^ He's definitely not feeling well!
> 
> Rest up friend, and get well, so you can start throwing sparks!


LOL

I definately am not well. I was going to trailer 2/3 ton of rubble to the tip tomorrow but I will leave it.

I feel like I've been kicked in the chest with all the coughing and general wooziness.

Maybe I will look at those lengths of angle again.

I did think the short lump of 18"x 36" I beam at the scrap yard was a nice tub shape.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Not sure if it was a good win or not but I put in a low bid on a pair of 15"x7" chrome wire wheels with 195 50 15 tyres and tubes just on the off chance and ended up having to do a 500 mile round trip to collect!

Now I'm not sure if I should use one of them with a nice fat tyre for the back or use them both on the front and then find another one for the back.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Now I'm not sure if I should use one of them with a nice fat tyre for the back or use them both on the front and then find another one for the back.


They have 18 x 10.5 inch wires for custom choppers that would look nice behind those.  That seller ships worldwide.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, but it isn't a centre lock wire wheel.
I was thinking more this from a Morgan, a 16"x7", as it will fit the splined hubs I have.








Around £500 though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I took an hour or so off paperwork and study to pop into the workshop.

I cleared and swept the middle of the floor.
I then laid out some Unistrut to start forming a working surface (you can see where this is going) and leveled it all. It will need to come up another 1 1/2" to get the ground clearance right.
I then placed the motor on a trolley and the rear wheel in position to see how the wider rim would measure up.









I might get to start welding something soon!

The rear wheel looks better at this width as it moves the chain line further outboard and places the motor nearly central to the chassis.









It should actually be central but the wheels I bought turned out to be a dud.
The seller advertised them as 15"x7" with 195/70/15 tyres and tubes. It turns out, now I have then clean and measured, that I should have taken a torch and a tape with me. The wheels are only 15"x6" and the tyres are 195/50/15. I will also have to have the wheels dip stripped and painted as the 'some spots of rust' turns out to be 'quite rusty and blistered with some pitting' as I would have to describe them. I could have bought 6" wheels locally for the same money and saved the long drive.
Oh well, it is annoying and I have messaged the seller to see what he has to say about it. I doubt he will do anything as I paid cash. I should have used PayPal, I could then stop the payment and ask him to arrange collection.

Anyway, a couple more photos.

















I am thinking of chassis material.

Do I use the 75mm x 50mm x 8mm angle that I have to make a ladder chassis frame or do I buy some 60mm x 40mm x 2mm box section? Or perhaps a whole load of 25mm x 25mm square tube to make a space frame?

Somehow I will need to support that 104kg motor at the back of the frame so the back end needs to be really rigid.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have laid out some bits of steel to get an idea of the floorpan area and to have a think about the wheel base and battery location again.

















I like the idea of the angle iron as it will allow an easy way of dropping in a flat wooden floor along the whole length to get a smooth underside.

I have also pushed the front wishbone up to the front most end to have a look. It makes the wheel base 2700mm. I will have to see how that effects the balance. All the batteries will then be behind the front axle. It will look better but the balance is more important in some ways.


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## Ektus (Feb 15, 2011)

The vehicle being a trike, I doubt angle iron will do. Torsional stiffness of any open profile (as in "not a tube of any shape") is very low. Your motor and seat are supported by the frame, but will rely on the torsional stiffness of the frame in order not to tilt to either side. 60mm x 40mm x 2mm box section would be better, and a whole load of 25mm x 25mm square tube to make a space frame should be your best option.


Just my €0,02
Ektus.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ektus said:


> The vehicle being a trike, I doubt angle iron will do. Torsional stiffness of any open profile (as in "not a tube of any shape") is very low. Your motor and seat are supported by the frame, but will rely on the torsional stiffness of the frame in order not to tilt to either side. 60mm x 40mm x 2mm box section would be better, and a whole load of 25mm x 25mm square tube to make a space frame should be your best option.
> 
> 
> Just my €0,02
> Ektus.


I would have thought that torsional stiffness wouldn't have that much of an effect on a trike, only three points of contact with the road so the frame just moves with the undulations. However, with a big rigid mass in it maybe inertia will be enough to stop it moving and start it flexing.

The angle iron route only came about due to looking at the Z section chassis frames on the Morgan three and four wheelers. The Z sction is taller but only in pressed sheet steel. 
That angle I have there is strong though. Supported at each end it barely moves when I stand in the middle of one length. Way too heavy for a trike really but I take your point about it being open and open to flex.

I'll start looking for tube and use the angle to make the jig.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

My vote would be for thin wall 25 x 50 mm (1 x 2 inch) for the lower rails and thin wall 25 x 25 mm for everything else.

I did the double engined tractor that way, even with 500 + pounds of engines there was NO flex.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Jim, 
Funny I was just looking at 50x25mm tube on ebay weighing up whether to buy cheap but pay postage or pay more and go to my local steel stockholder.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've just had a look at the steering options.

I want to make the track wider from the the MGB 1250mm to something around 1450mm. That really means that I need to find a steering rack that is around 760mm wide from inner ball joint to inner ball joint. I can design the wishbone mounts around the rack width if it is close enough.

Any suggestions on a rack?

Having thought about it I would really prefer a single rack the right size rather then a short rack and linkages if possible, just to avoid any inspection difficulties.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Woody,

To avoid bump-steer issues, you generally want the rack (inner pivot to inner pivot) to measure the same as the front A-arm inner pivot point to inner pivot point. The tie rods will then be approximately the same length as the A-arms. If you locate the rack at the same height as the steering arm, the suspension and tie rods will swing through nearly the same arc, thus eliminating geometry problems.

So, the first thing you need to do is widen the front suspension on paper to figure the necessary width, then pack a lunch and go to the local dismantler with tape measure in hand.  By the way, remember that your MGB suspension uses a front-steer rack, but you can probably swap the steering arms side-for-side to create a rear-steer situation. This would keep the rack out of harm's way behind the axle centerline.

Have fun.

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

electromet said:


> Woody,
> 
> To avoid bump-steer issues, you generally want the rack (inner pivot to inner pivot) to measure the same as the front A-arm inner pivot point to inner pivot point. The tie rods will then be approximately the same length as the A-arms. If you locate the rack at the same height as the steering arm, the suspension and tie rods will swing through nearly the same arc, thus eliminating geometry problems.
> 
> ...


Got that, and appreciate your description of the process for those who don't know.

I cut my teeth designing suspensions and steering systems as one of my favorite areas of my Motor Vehicle Tech training.
It was 27 years ago but I think 'Granny can still suck her eggs'.


Been playing with the tractor today too. See other thread for the gory details!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think I have found the paint job for the trike!
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/02/morgan-3-wheeler/


















We need a 'leaping up and down shouting Want Want Want' smilie!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Think how much better that will look without the exhausts getting in the way


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Think how much better that will look without the exhausts getting in the way


You got it!

That is the look that keeps drawing me back to the motor at the front layout.
Just imagining a vertical motor, in chrome, with two big stainless steel flexible conduits running from it for the cables but disappearing into the bodywork.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Duncan said:


> Think how much better that will look without the exhausts getting in the way


Those exhaust spoils the whole design, not just the paint job! 

Dawid


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## oughtsix (Jun 21, 2009)

What would happen if you found a front clip and trans-axle from a light weight front wheel drive car and used it to power the front wheels instead of powering the rear wheel?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

oughtsix said:


> What would happen if you found a front clip and trans-axle from a light weight front wheel drive car and used it to power the front wheels instead of powering the rear wheel?


I would be building something quite different to what I want to build.

I wanted rear wheel drive, wire wheels, low and lean, no conventional engineering solutions.


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

That Morgan needs a high powered amplifier and a CD of a 
Rolls Royce Merlin to complete the theme.


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## oughtsix (Jun 21, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I would be building something quite different to what I want to build.
> 
> I wanted rear wheel drive, wire wheels, low and lean, no conventional engineering solutions.


Fair enough! Just trying to expand the thinking box... maybe spark an idea completely unrelated to the FWD idea!



Cheers!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

oughtsix said:


> Fair enough! Just trying to expand the thinking box... maybe spark an idea completely unrelated to the FWD idea!
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!


It's always throwing your tuppence (2cents) worth in anyway.

Were I to be sensible about the design then it most likely would have been 2CV front end and a small motor as I already have the parts, or older VW Golf front end.


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## oughtsix (Jun 21, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It's always throwing your tuppence (2cents) worth in anyway.
> 
> Were I to be sensible about the design then it most likely would have been 2CV front end and a small motor as I already have the parts, or older VW Golf front end.


That is what I was thinking. I can't quite form a mental picture of what such a configuration would do to drive-ability and maneuverability? Seems like the weight distribution would have to be shifted forwards. It might make for a lighter rear suspension and a smoother ride?

It also might make the honey seat a little easier to accomplish. As long as I am "what if"ing... sleeve the back of the cycle into the front so you can stretch it for the honey and shorten it when it is just you.... 


Assuming rear wheel drive:
Could the motor be mounted under the transmission and both pieces be angled down to regain the proper wheel height... for the purpose of lowering the center of gravity? I am guessing the motor is much heavier than the transmission????


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Front wheel drive will make a much more tractable vehicle, two wheel drive against one wheel drive. Also it will allow understeer which is better for anyone not used to tail sliding a rear drive car.

The weight distribution will be the same either way, approximately 2/3 front, 1/3 rear or 1/3 on each wheel.

I did think about a 'telescoping' chassis for the honey seat and one that extends sideways too but it is overly complex and could cause legality issues when getting it legal on the road.

I don't have a 'transmission' so the final part of your answer isn't relevent.
However, shaft or chain drive wants to be fairly horizontal as the swing arm also want to be horizontal. Having either in some steep inclination causes other drive and suspension handling problems that are not worth getting into.


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## oughtsix (Jun 21, 2009)

After 44 pages of reading I missed the part about abandoning the motorcycle gear box.

I understand that the swing arm on a motorcycle is horizontal and swings up. Does the design translate to your trike though? If the swing arm slopes down towards the wheel when a bump is hit the wheel would swing back and up... maybe this might be a good thing for a smooth ride? For a bike I can see how this would be bad and could cause control issues... but you are building a trike.

I guess it doesn't really matter as you will want to keep the motor a low as possible and your motor arbor is going to have to be very close to your swing arm pivot point.

I am glad you envisioned and ruled out both the telescoping and widening cab ideas. I couldn't make either of them really work in my head either. So you have thoroughly investigated and ruled out the rope and skateboard idea too?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I got a box in the post today!

Many thanks to Greyballs for sending me new toys.

















Now, I wonder if I can double them up and have 144V and 800A?
(And for all those who have considered the same idea, no, that won't work!)

I will use my 48V for my Dads kart and one of the 72V for my tractor with a couple extra batteries. The other will go in the trike to get it road legal with the batteries borrowed from the tractor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

More new toys!

The chaps who had a go at the 12" motor owed me a favour and they kindly offered to CNC the DE cap for me.

I got a call today to come over to collect it so a tin of selection biscuits (cookies) and a box of chocolates in hand I went over to find they were still working on it.

The plate I supplied for the bearing retainer was a little small but theoretically would work but it was too tight really. The chaps were just opening out the air holes on the retainer to improve the look. 
So I have video!




These are the finished parts. I will clean and polish the larger piece myself as there was no instruction for the chaps to do it for me.


















I tried it on the motor to see if everything lined up and it all seems fine.
I didn't put the bearing in as it is a press fit and I need to cut out the extraction holes. Also I want to clean the plate before I fit it.









The clearence for the armature can be seen through the holes.
It also shows the slightly oversizing on the retainer to match up with the chamfer on the DE cap holes.









Looking at the curve of the armature windings and the thought that they would act like a fan it would mean having my motor turning backwards so I might think about reversing everything and having the chain drive on the right instead of the left side.

Thank you to the engineering chaps, who would like to remain anonymous, for all their work. It was two days effort and I much appreciate it.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

*Beautiful*

Is it running yet.

Jim

Edit, Before you redesign the drivetrain, run the motor the way you first set it up and see how much air it moves (if any).End Edit


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

Beautiful work.
One can accomplish amazing things with a CNC mill,,,, I also find that I am just as captive watching it do it's thing, as I am by the parts I, (it), can produce.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Jim, greyballs. 

I will get everything done and then have a play. I have only just ordered some nice stainless countersunk allen head screws for the retainer plate and some stainless button allen headed bolts for the frame mounting. I know there is an issue with stainelss and aluminium but I will live with that. Any suggestions for a thread lube/lock to resolve it if necessary?

I had a go at cleaning up the larger plate and made it look like this.

















Not wonderfully tidy and I can still see some of the scoring marks in it so I might scrape it back and do it again. I should really have had 0.5mm skimmed off it and the bearing retainer adjusted accordingly but the chaps did so much work I didn't want to ask them to fit it all back on the machine again.

Swapping sides would allow me to swap sides on the splined wheel hub too. I am currently using an old right side MGB rear hub which is designed for shaft mounting and only has a thin flange for the brake drum. I have a new left side front hub which is designed for flange mounting and is better as it has a thick flange. Not swapping sides will mean having to spend £95 on a new right side front hub eventually.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Very nice Woody!  You know I love anything CAD/CNC.  I like the engine-turned touch too. Will the scratches be visible on the trike, or is it just a matter of knowing that they're there?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The scratches are a little visible so I am tempted to skim or scrape them off. I can then set up the engine turning so that it is more evenly made. It started with just a play to see what would happen if... and I ended up doing the whole thing.

Being me though I also want to do the inside that no one sees!

I must think about a finish in the motor frame too. A friend is planning on getting some stuff anodised and I am thinking about putting my bits in with the batch.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Being me though I also want to do the inside that no one sees!...


X2! People always ask me why I'm putting so much time into parts that will never be seen again. If you have to ask...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

And that only applies to the parts I've made, or had made. I am not bothered about the rest of the motor, that could easily stay as it is and I would still polish the inside of the DE!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Along with a busy day I decided to have a go at hand routing the DE cap.
I selected a small speed controlled router and two cheap cutters from my wood shop that 'could' be sacrificed to aluminium cutting.

First off I used a 10mm radius cutter to open out the air holes from the inside of the DE cap.

















With the router set up to a fixed depth I found that the vibration was causing it to creep downwards changing the depth of the cut. I decided to take the base off and fit a stack of washers as spacers to fix the depth. With a bit of shimming it was fine and I was able to finish off the rest of the holes.









I then engine turned the inside face to match the outside.









With a 8mm radius cutter I then went around the edges of the bearing retainer.
The radius isn't quite smooth on the top edge as the cutter would have cut into the countersink holes but it leaves a nice edge.









Cutting aluminium wasn't too difficult, bearing guided is always easy anyway, with the speed set as low as possible and a slow and shallow feed rate it worked fine. The two cutters will stay in the metal shop now and I will get new ones for the wood shop.

The metal shop now looks like a Tinkerbell has sprinkled fairy dust all over it!
That will take some cleaning up.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's purdy!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Todd.

I am going to look for, or make a cylinder head valve stem to take an abrasive pad to do the engine turning properly. I have been using a wire brush and it isn't good enough that way.
I will have to sort out a process to get a nice spiral pattern.

I have been looking at the other cheap router cutters I have and wondering about other profiles but I reckon I would spoil it over doing that.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Cutting aluminium wasn't too difficult, bearing guided is always easy anyway


Those are very impressive results for a hand router Woodsmith. I have one just like yours sitting unused in the garage. When you say 'bearing-guided' do you mean you used a cutter with a small bearing on the tip?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Those are very impressive results for a hand router Woodsmith. I have one just like yours sitting unused in the garage. When you say 'bearing-guided' do you mean you used a cutter with a small bearing on the tip?


Yes, like this one.









I did it dry and slow in short passes so the cutter didn't get too hot. I did also try some lube but it just got messy and chips got stuck under the router base.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, I'll have to try that. I've only ever used it on wood before and I had problems with the cutter wandering and changing height. That was probably down to me being impatient and not setting everything up rigidly though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Thanks, I'll have to try that. I've only ever used it on wood before and I had problems with the cutter wandering and changing height. That was probably down to me being impatient and not setting everything up rigidly though.


Some routers are better then others at staying where they are set.
I am hoping to get one of these one day as it is non plunging and so stays put. Not too expensive either.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-bosch-gkf-600-palm-router-kit-prod781470/?src=2007_wk9
We have one at college and I am tending towards it as the router of choice for small non plunge work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Some of the bolts arrived today, the countersunk ones.
They are a little proud of the surface so I will see if I can enlarge the counter sink a little at some point. I also buffed up the bearing retainer a bit.









I looked at the pinion gear and decided against paying someone to grind the teeth off. I tackled it myself instead.
I used an angle grinder to take all the teeth off first and then used an 80 grit sanding pad to get it almost round checking with a straight edge using the two bearing surfaces as a guide.
Then, with all the surface hardening on the teeth gone I put it on the lathe and skimmed it round and true.









I have now ordered a 10B-2 17 tooth sprocket and taper lock. I haven't got a keyway for the bush so I will have to see if I need one.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Beautiful work.

Now when are you going to make me a new front cover to replace that 45 pound cast iron thing on the front of our motor?

School and stuff letting up a bit and allowing you to get back to an occasinal day at the trike shop?

Anything on the tractors?

Be well,
Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nothing on the tractor as yet, Jim, I still need to get a couple of oil seals and then figure the most economical way to make up the new chain drive set up. I need something closer to 1:1 with the Wheelhorse trans to get a reasonable speed. Also thinking of upgrading to the 9" motor.

School work hasn't let up but if I didn't do this I would be pulling my hair out and writing a resignation letter. This gets me a breather for a moment to unwind and relax a bit.

Anyway, where was I?

Oh yes, I dcided to fit the bearing into the DE cap and try out the toothless pinion.









I also put 12v to it and shot some video. It runs really smooth and no hint of vibration, just as the 12" did way back when!


Then I decided to make a piece to plug and cap the hollow pinion and allow me to use an M8x60 cap screw to retain the pinion on the shaft.
For lack of a convenient bit of steel, either too small or way too large to warrent turning down, I opted for an M24 bolt. I bored it out, rounded the corners and cut to length. The bolt in it is too short so I will need to go shopping for one bolt!









To be fair, that pinion isn't going anywhere. The bearing is a very tight press fit in the DE cap and the pinion is equally tight in the bearing.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody, 

Motor sounds sweet. 

Is there any air flow? Remember I thought that the design of the windings and the hollow armature should create a cooling air flow.

You must feel pretty good right now. That was some good planning/design, the machine shop guys did you right this time.

The extra touches are what counts though. you don't find many nowadays who will take the extra effort to make it pretty.

I'm glad you can take a few minutes aside once in a while to relax with a bit of fun stuff.

All work with no play etc.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi Jim,
No, no air flow of any consequence. I will try it spinning the other way tomorrow and get an rpm reading at 12v.

I had to go out this evening as a friend had a music performance on. He has just finished his music degree and was performing his own contemporary composition which formed his end of term exam. It was called 'Symphony for Saxaphone, Cello, Toy Piano and Laptop'!

It was quite good and sounded very much like the sound track to 'Blade Runner'.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

WoW!! Great work - I am impressed on how it went together Woody ....


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

The motor looks good - like mechanical porn. Reminds me of A Python "Naughty Bit"


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers guys, mechanical porn, I like that!

I did a quick run in the reverse direction and also put the tacho on the motor. It reads about 950prm at 12V and draws 20A

I can definately feel a little draft at the air holes, without my gloves on this time (duh!) but it was slight in both directions of spin. So I dangled a bit of tissue over one of the holes to see if I could compare the flow.

Good thing I had a hold of the other end of the tissue, the airflow is inwards!
It appears to spiral air into the holes in the direction of motor spin. I am charging the battery again before I do a more definative test.

If was to put a fan at the CE to suck air through the motor then it will also suck chain oil through as well. I may need a spinner disc between the chain and motor to deflect any stray chain oil away from the holes. I'll play that one by ear when the time comes.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have just picked up the sprocket from an engineering supplier about 12 miles away. First time I have used them and they seem friendly and effective.










I needed to get it at this stage to work out how much clearence I would need for the chain.









There needs to be a fair amount of space to ensure the chain doesn't scuff the shiny bits.

For now that will do. As I design the swing arm, and set the rear hub relative to it, I can use the old chain that came with the Honda parts to get the alignment and centres right.

I will use two new rear sprockets stacked with a spacer to match a duplex sprocket spacing. The old sprocket will be idea as the spacer, it just needs thinning down a bit though, and the teeth taking off.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I popped out today and picked up a 'pre-loved' tyre for the trike back wheel. I figured I needed one to sort out clearances. It was dirt cheap at £7 and so, sweltering in the heat today, I managed to fit it on the rim.

It is a 225 60 15 Uniroyal with about 4mm of tread depth. I'll not use it on the road as I don't know if there is hidden damage anywhere.

























Looks good though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've sorted out the relative locations of the wheel and motor.

I have settled on 600mm between the centres allowing me a suitable gap for the swing arm to cross over to the other side of the motor.

























I have also fitted the button headed bolts to the DE cap on the motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Despite strict medical instruction to stay out of the workshop until I have had a brain scan I got really, really bored building parts only in my head.

I decided to make a couple of feet for the motor last week. That couple of hours wore me out but I didn't learn and was in the workshop again today.

These are the feet I made last week for the motor.








50x50x5mm box section with 40x40x5mm angle to close off the ends.
There will be a curved section cut out to cradle the motor and the ends will be drilled to bolt the motor to the chassis frame.

Today I started making the swing arm.
I used 70x40x3mm box section to the arm and cut the forward end to fit as a bridle joint over a 100x50x3mm box that will run crossways to the pivots on each side of the chassis.
Then I joined a shorted section to it in a lap joint to get the off set into the wheel dish.

















I then cut the curved section rom the end to fit the axle clamp ring. I took plenty of time on that to make sure that it fitted dead square and tight.
Then I welded it and closed the open ends on the overlap.

































I then tried it back on the axle to check for wheel clearence.

















I need to skim a little off the width of the clamp as the brake mount is too tight to fit properly.









Need to rest now as I fell off my bike this evening and landed on my face. Good thing I was wearing a cycling helmet as it and my glasses took the brunt of the landing. I now have a bit of road rash on my face, hands and knees.
The doctors said not to drive but didn't say not to cycle, maybe they should have.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Be careful old friend, especially with the power tools and such in hand! 

On the other hand, your work of disobedience looks awesome!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Be careful old friend, especially with the power tools and such in hand!
> 
> On the other hand, your work of disobedience looks awesome!




I am careful, more so now my 4" angle grinder isn't working, it needs new motor brushes, so I am back to a selection of files.

I made the brake reaction bracket today, I found a bit of bent bracket with a hole in it that fitted nicely so I welded a nut to it ad then welded it to the swing arm. I then ground off what I could off the welds and filed the rest. I want the whole thing to have a nice smooth shape.

























I also checked the clearences with the tyre when the excentric hub is turned for chain tension.

In the 'slackest' position I have about 1/4" clearence as the tyre moves forwards.









In the tightest there is plenty.









This is how it all sits in relation to the motor.








The short bit of 4"x2" box is just for checking clearence and will be replaced with a longer bit later.

I also did a little work on the tractor parts but I'll write that in the tractor thread.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Very nice. Why did you use the 4x2 rectangular tubing at the pivot end, instead of conventional round tube?

I've been toying with the idea of doing a single sided swing arm to put a 300-330 tire on the back of Scratch - you're making me what to weld up something!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Very nice. Why did you use the 4x2 rectangular tubing at the pivot end, instead of conventional round tube?
> 
> I've been toying with the idea of doing a single sided swing arm to put a 300-330 tire on the back of Scratch - you're making me want to weld up something!


It was for ease of making to be honest. The 4x2 will be about 2' long and at each end it will have a bit of 50mm tube going forwards to align with the axis of the motor armature. The ends of the 50mm tubes will have 20mm rose joints to allow for some adjustability to ensure the swing arm is square to the chassis. The 4x2 will also have the suspension spring mounted to it centrally.

I thought about round tube but then I would want to make the whole thing in round tube with bent to nice curves, but I don't have the tube bender, something like this.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> It was for ease of making to be honest. The 4x2 will be about 2' long and at each end it will have a bit of 50mm tube going forwards to align with the axis of the motor armature. The ends of the 50mm tubes will have 20mm rose joints to allow for some adjustability to ensure the swing arm is square to the chassis. The 4x2 will also have the suspension spring mounted to it centrally.
> 
> I thought about round tube but then I would want to make the whole thing in round tube with bent to nice curves, but I don't have the tube bender, something like this.


Gotcha. That's really tasty! Gotta get off this page and quit looking at it now.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Would it be better to have the brake torque reaction tied back to the frame rather than the swing arm? I think this would prevent the vehicle squatting down at the back under brakes. If the brakes were hung under the hub this could be via a tension rod.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

John said:


> Would it be better to have the brake torque reaction tied back to the frame rather than the swing arm? I think this would prevent the vehicle squatting down at the back under brakes. If the brakes were hung under the hub this could be via a tension rod.


I'm replicating the original set up on the Honda from which I got the parts. It is no different to a conventional car or bike swing arm and brake set up except that the caliper is on a free rotating mount to allow for the excentric hub to be moved for chain tension.

This is the excentric hub. (photos from the internet)


















The brake mounting plate.








As the excentric is turned the brake mount effectively moves backwards or forwards as it is free to rotate on the hub. The reaction arm only prevents the rotation of the plate when the brake is on.


The rear swing arm squatting under braking isn't necessarily a bad thing as the brake reaction reduces some of the back lift and front dive effect

At the bottom of the disc will be another caliper, a mechanical one, for the parking brake requirement.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Today I fitted the parking brake caliper.

I welded a steel frame to the existing caliper carrier so that the parking brake caliper sits under the hub.

























This is where it sits relative to the wheel rim.









I have changed the lever to face backwards so that the brake cable can loop over the top of the hub and down the back to pull on the lever. That should give a better path then a tight bend ahead of the hub.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Today was mostly spent tidying up the workshop and a quick run to the scrapyard to trade in a load of scrap metal for a tidy sum.

However, this evening I set to on the lathe and quickly made a couple of plugs for the swing arm tubes to take the rose joints.









They will be bored out and tapped to suit the M20 rose joints and then shrink fitted into the ends of the 2" tube before welding.

I now need to decide if M20 is overkill and if M16 rose joints would be sufficient.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I now need to decide if M20 is overkill...


You say that like a little overkill would be a bad thing?  

Looks good so far Woody. I can't wait to see this trike start to take its form. How are you feeling?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You say that like a little overkill would be a bad thing?


Well, there is the cost issue and the weight issue and the M20 joints are rated at 107kN and the M16 joints are rated at 95kN.



toddshotrods said:


> Looks good so far Woody. I can't wait to see this trike start to take its form. How are you feeling?


Cheers.

I am feeling better each day and I have my brain scan scheduled for Wednesday lunch time. All being well they will find one!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I am feeling better each day and I have my brain scan scheduled for Wednesday lunch time. All being well they will find one!


Hope it goes well. Finding one in there is only half the battle. What madness it's cooking could up, at the time, be the scary part for them!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

While waiting to meet my honey's boss to look at electric trucks I got on with a bit of work in the workshop.

I took the 11" motor apart with a view to welding the feet on to the frame.

The armature.









It has holes all the way through starting as three long ovals at the CE and blending into six round holes at the DE. This would explain the airflow from DE to CE through the centre, best to keep it that way I guess.









The comm. Opinions?









Also this looks like the armature is delaminating a little. Is it a problem?









The fields.

























With a lot of effort I managed to get the field windings out.
The coil nearest has damaged wrappings. They ripped when I was trying to get the terminal out of the frame hole. Will this be a big problem?









The brush ring.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is the frame, it is a bit rusty inside and out but it should clean up fine.









I will then get the feet welded on and then have it sprayed. I will then have the problem of looking after it while the rest of the trike is built around it.

The CE cap.









Looks clean enough and the bearing looks fine but I will change it as a matter of course. It will get sprayed too but I want to make a duct on the end of it to force draw the air flow out of the armature ducts first.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Had a thought.

The terminal tabs were a little awkward to use and for getting the fields out of the frame. I could drill out the plastic insulator plugs that were in the frame and then bolt the field and armature terminals through the frame for a more conventional bolt stud terminal on the outside.

Should I do this and should I use steel nuts, washers and bolts or brass nuts, washers and bolts?

I was thinking of, from inside to outside of the frame:
Bolt, washer, field winding, washer, fibre washer, frame insulator, fibre washer, washer, nut, washer, washer, nut.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The feet are almost ready to weld on the motor frame.









I just need to decide on what size bolts to use so I can drill the mounting holes first. As it is going to be side mounted, cantilevered off the back of the chassis, the bolts will be in shear and tension and the motor will also get bounced about over bumps. M12 fine thread or M16 fine thread in 12.9 cap screws?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looks nice Woody!  M16 gets my vote, with 200+lbs of motor hanging on them. Any room for a hidden vertical brace under the motor. Sort of like a shelf bracket.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Looks nice Woody!  M16 gets my vote, with 200+lbs of motor hanging on them. Any room for a hidden vertical brace under the motor. Sort of like a shelf bracket.


M16 then.
I will probably hide something underneath so it looks like a skid plate or undertray but it will only just reach the mid point of the motor so the curve of the frame stays completely visible. Need to sort out how it will tie into the motor though.
It will probably help to deflect any puddles I drive through.

The brace will also cantilever off the chassis but will be welded.

Once the motor is all welded up I will pass it on to a friend to spray.
He is spraying the chain guard I made for my honey's bike (the one I bought for her birthday) to match the mudguards, a dark metalic or pearlescent red. he will paint the motor the same colour.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...so it looks like a skid plate or undertray but it will only just reach the mid point of the motor so the curve of the frame stays completely visible...


Exactly. That's what I was thinking.

I still haven't gotten around to getting a honey yet, but the thought has been on my mind a lot lately.  Glad to things are working out with yours. 

Sweet chain guard!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I still haven't gotten around to getting a honey yet, but the thought has been on my mind a lot lately.  Glad to things are working out with yours.


Cheers.
We are getting on really well, she is a good 'un, that's for sure.

I need a Brompton folding bike, my honey wanted one.
I found one on Ebay for her and negotiated a price that was half what it was worth for her to 'buy it now'. So now she has a half price Brompton and I am still looking for one I can afford! That's a good relationship I think.



toddshotrods said:


> Sweet chain guard!


Thanks, I just want to beat some scalloped beads, like go faster flames, into it for stiffening then it will be done.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

M16x1.5 cap screws are costly!

I have sorted out the nuts for it though. Land Rover wheel nuts are also M16x1.5 so I am going to weld one to each end of the motor feet.









I will need to buy the bolts first to pull the nuts tight and get the location properly centred over the holes before I can weld them. Then I will cap the open ends of the feet to keep water out and to cover the nuts to make it all look neat and smooth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Very nice Woody. I love how you're doing this, and can't wait to see the motor magically hanging off the back like that!  Don't forget to use anti-seize on those bolts, even for mock-up and testing. All it takes is a burr or something to have you cutting back into that mount.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Todd, You'll like this!


Today has been busy. I have made arrangements with a friend to take all the motor bits and the bike bits for spraying tomorrow so I had to get cracking with the work.

First was very careful setting up of the motor feet for welding. The holes on each foot is on 250mm centres, the feet are centred 215mm apart. It took a few goes to get them spot on with tiny tack welds but it is worth all the effort to get it right at this stage.
One of the feet was also very close to the terminal holes so I needed to ensure I used every millimeter I could to ensure enough clearence for the terminal studs.
Then it was very slow stitch welding, one bit at a time over most of the day.

















Once all the edges were welded I began the long process of grinding back, filing and sanding the beads to get smooth joints. A little filler will be needed for some of the undercuts and ripples in the weld edges.

















And with the DE cap on.









The Land Rover wheel nuts welded in place look ugly and will be a water trap when the motor is mounted so I decided to cap them. As the nuts protrude further then the angle cut on the foot I decided to cut some 50x1.5mm tube in half and weld that on. Again grinding the welds smooth.

















The open undersides of the feet, created by the tube, was then capped, welded and smoothed off.

















With the DE and CE caps back on the motor now looks like this.









It has been a long day in a hot, dusty workshop but worth the effort to get the look I wanted for the motor.
Hopefully it will be metalic red when it come back from spraying.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Todd, You'll like this!...


Darn tootin' I do!  Very, very, nice Woody! I can't wait to see it hanging with chains strapped to the rear wheel.

Did you ever decide whether the body is going to be wood, composite, metal???


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Darn tootin' I do!  Very, very, nice Woody! I can't wait to see it hanging with chains strapped to the rear wheel.
> 
> Did you ever decide whether the body is going to be wood, composite, metal???


Cheers Todd.

The body is still developing. I have a lot of decisions to make, many are cost related so I have shelved them for the time being to concentrate on the bits that will happen regardless.

I want to get the rear bulkhead/firewall of the cabin built to take the motor and swingarm first. It will be in 50x50x3mm square tube. The top of that will have a roll hoop and a rear chassis frame that forms the boot/trunk and rear wheel arch/fender and will also need to be strong enough to take the suspension mount and a tow hitch.
Forward of the bulkhead I am dithering on tube size to make a simple space frame.
It could be 25x25 square wrapped in aluminium sheet like the Caterham Seven or I could use 50x50 square to make a ladder frame topped with an ash frame and wood panels.

Whatever it is it needs to be rigid enough to take the loading on the rear bulkhead. 100kg of cantilevered motor, suspension loading and driving/braking loads.

I am still playing with the idea of a single quarter eliptical leaf spring under the motor to the swing arm with a lever arm damper hidden in the luggage area over the wheel.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...I am still playing with the idea of a single quarter eliptical leaf spring under the motor to the swing arm with a lever arm damper hidden in the luggage area over the wheel.


All sounds good. I really like that ^^^!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm going to have to design it in and then play it by ear to determine the best spring design.

A multi leaf spring would be easy to adjust by adding and removing leaves but a single tapered leaf would look better.
I may have to just buy a random leaf spring and experiment as I go and tehn when it is right get a single taper leaf made up.

The leaf spring mount would be a good reason to add a cantilever 'shelf' to rest the motor onto too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have just picked up a steering rack from Ebay. It is a Ford Escort mk1/2 rack and I picked it up on a whim as it was cheap.

It gives me 120mm more track width then the MGB one and it doesn't have the long rigid column allowing me to fit a UJ at the rack and bring the column to where I want it.

Top: Mini steering column (might be useful and the splines fit the Escort rack).
Middle: Escort rack.
Bottom MGB rack.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A small job out the way today, something that has been waiting on the right tools and for me to be well enough to do it right.

I picked up a 20x1.5mm tap and an 18mm drill and finally got the swing arm rose joint plugs done.









I will now order the joints and then I can set the length of the swing arm relative to the axis of the motor and finish making it.

Hopefully the motor will be back from the sprayer soon.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Only an hour or so in the workshop today. 
Much of the rest of today was spent making a dock for my new Sony Ericsson Xperia Arc phone for my car so I can have music again. It is a relatively unimportant thing but I don't like loose cables and accessories floating about inside the car, everything has to tucked away and properly mounted.

I then did some welding.

The 50mm tube for the swing arm was cut, squared up and the ends bevelled. I decided to put a threaded plug in each end of the tube and worry about cutting to length another day. I drilled four 13mm holes equispaced about the tube to plug weld as well. The threaded plugs were then hammered in to each end.
I say hammered but the hammering with a lead mallet wasn't having much effect so I placed a bit of wood on the concrete floor and banged the tube onto that to drive the ends in. Much easier and more effective.









I then plug welded the holes and the bevelled edges with a fairly high setting on the welder to get the penetration I wanted.









Then, with a grinding disc and a sanding disc I smoothed off the welds. There are a couple of areas of undercutting that I will weld over next time and then I can sort out getting them welded to the rest of the swing arm.









I cleaned out the threads afterwards as there was loads of grit inside from both the welding and the grinding. It is well worth buying a suitable tap even when there are only two holes to tap out. The tap will be used a great many more times to clean up before the rose joints are wound in for the last time.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice.  You know I like this kind of stuff!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Me too!   !


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers guys.

These joints are the ones I had in mind to use together with these boots to keep the lube in and the grit out.

What's your opinion before I order them?

I will get some half nuts but I might make some nicely shaped ones.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers guys.
> 
> These joints are the ones I had in mind to use together with these boots to keep the lube in and the grit out.
> 
> ...


Yep, yep - those look like the right "joints". We typically call them rod ends... 

The boots are too cool for school!  They should go nicely with the retro look you're after!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's good. I will get those.

Rod ends to me tend to be this type.









For the retro look I'm going to have to get a multi leaf spring bound with leather, and a friction damper.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...For the retro look I'm going to have to get a multi leaf spring bound with leather, and a friction damper.


 Will a friction damper provide the performance you need? If not, you can fake it with hidden linkae running through it to a conventional "damper" - it's a shock absorber over here!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, shock absorbers are the springs as they absorb the shock. Dampers dampen out the energy stored in the spring to reduce the bounce and rebound.

Common language indeed!

I am already planning on using a lever arm damper in the luggage area above the motor with a push rod to operate it. I can make a fake one of these friction dampers if I want the look I guess.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My rose joints (rod ends) have arrived!

I immediately fitted the boots to keep workshop muck out and then fitted them on to the tube and put bolts on to plug up the boot holes.
Then I remembered to take some photos.










I put a 4" grinding disc in for scale.

















Looks like a track rod for a 40 ton truck!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> My rose joints (rod ends) have arrived!...
> 
> ...Looks like a track rod for a 40 ton truck!


Looks awesome Woody! The full-race Pro-Arms I am planning to purchase for the Inhaler are _almost_ that big. They're made for over 1000hp drag racing. You should be good to go!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Looks awesome Woody! The full-race Pro-Arms I am planning to purchase for the Inhaler are _almost_ that big. They're made for over 1000hp drag racing. You should be good to go!


So should I have gone for the next size up then?

With the strength of the joint I was wondering about the legality (in the UK) of using the swing arm as the connection point for the tow hitch, instead of the chassis frame, a bit like the one I put on my Ratrike.


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Todd, You'll like this!
> 
> 
> Today has been busy. I have made arrangements with a friend to take all the motor bits and the bike bits for spraying tomorrow so I had to get cracking with the work.
> ...


Awsome work. Its touches like this that take time but turn a project into a work of art!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers, kerrymann, I do like getting the details right in a design or a piece of work.

I do, though, work in two modes, rough and ready for functional things and in absolute detail for very special things.

I am at risk, sometimes, of being so caught up in the detail that I can lose sight of the whole. That has been a bigger problem since becoming ill and having this thread, like a blog, has been a great help to keep track of what I am doing.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I figured it was time to work out how long the swing arm needs to be and how much chain I need.

I set up the motor DE cap and sprocket on the bench and laid out the swing arm parts in a sort of 2D schematic.









With the rear hub excentric at the mid point and the chain on an even number of links the centre to centre distance is 620mm. That gives a chain length of 108 pitches of 5/8" (10B-2) duplex chain.

The big rose joints are able to offer a little more adjustment if needed but I want them wound in as far as possible with a half nut to lock. The adjustment there should be to set the tracking of the rear wheel and all the chain length adjustment should be in the rear hub excentric.

I should be able to start setting up to complete the swing arm build with the rose joints at 600mm centres, on each side of the motor, but I really want to get the motor back and assembled first as I know it is slightly offset to one side.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We need a drooling icon!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I know what you mean, it cheered me up after the tractor brakes fiasco.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Hmmmm does this work?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Dave Koller said:


> Hmmmm does this work?


Yup - crap, we need a thumbs-up too.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2011-morgan-3-wheeler


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the link, Todd.

I picked up my motor from my friend who was supposed to be spraying it.
No joy. 
He hasn't been able to finish it due to 'domestic difficulties' and I have been asked to collect my stuff in the meantime. Hopefully he will get back on his feet soon.
The motor, and all the other parts are back with me now, in part primer and filler.
I guess I will do it myself.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've been working on the motor to sculpt it the way I want it to look.

There was some filler already applied but it left the welds having two radii and a bit uneven. I bought some Isopon P38 for the first time in nearly 30 years and got on with it.

It was the sort of job I could do without over doing the work load as I am not feeling that strong at the moment. A few minutes spent applying filler, go and rest, a bit of sanding, rest, a bit more filler, etc.

I have now got it to the form I want.

















Then I brush applied a coat of red oxide primer to fill in the small scratches and any pin holes.

















I will leave it a couple of days to fully cure before I start with the wet sanding.
It is a little annoying that the weld seam on the barrel is on a visible side leaving a ripple in the surface and so I might spend a little time filing and sanding it down to get a smooth curve.

I think, if my friend is painting it the same as my honey's bike parts, it would be Candy apple red on metallic gold but if I do it myself then the motor and honey's bike might be a simple Jaguar metalic red for ease. I can do that with a rattle can but don't want to spend lots on a large quantitiy of Candy and a spray kit myself.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's purdy Woody!  I cannot wait to see that thing hanging in mid-air!

If that darn Atlantic puddle would dry up, I'd throw my (paint) gun in the car and drive over and spray that for ya!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Todd.

I've been thinking of redesigning the rear swingarm components too. Possibly losing the 4x2 box section and fabricating an aerofoil profile to run across the chassis behind the motor. The rod ends and the swing arm can then blend into the aero section like the engines on a aeroplane wing.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Cheers Todd.
> 
> I've been thinking of redesigning the rear swingarm components too. Possibly losing the 4x2 box section and fabricating an aerofoil profile to run across the chassis behind the motor. The rod ends and the swing arm can then blend into the aero section like the engines on a aeroplane wing.


Normally, I catch on quick but I can't picture what you're saying here?


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

DON'T DO IT WOODY/Night Train! 
We want it running, not going around in circles chopping and changing. 

Don't know about batteries or controller but with your motor, you'll have so much torque, you simply do not need a gearbox! Have I missed something in those 53 pages?


Doing an MEV Etrike here. Early days.
My Front end is off a Kawasaki KLF300B Quad. I'm trying to stick with 14" alloy rims. Just ordered a 10KW BLDC Golden motor/controller which is much cheaper than the Lynch offerings. Weight is everything; trying to keep everything light as possible. So the Lithium cells will hopefully be around 40% of the vehicle weight and much further forward than whats in the plans.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, I completely forgot about this. That shows how my failing brain is behaving at the moment.

Todd, Here is a very simple sketch of what I mean. The rear part of the swing arm will be welded to a cross beam which will have the tubular bits on with the rose joints at the front end.

I was planning on using a 100x50mm box section to make the cross beam but was also thinking of folding an aerofoil wing section instead.









I wanted to blend the joints in the same way an aeroplane engine and body joins the wing.









Beemer!

What gearbox? Are you still reading about the belated MR2 on the other forum?

I have a duplex chain drive that gives me a 43/17 ratio direct to the back wheel.









Seriously though, at the moment I am not allowed to work and so I am on near zero income. There is minimal progress so I can redesign as much as my mind can cope with.
If I can get the swing arm complete this year I will be happy.
Still got to sort out details like parking brake cables and hydraulic pipes that I don't want to show. Also the leaf spring mounting underneath and the damper push rod location.

Next Tuesday I will see the consultant at hospital to see if my brain scan provides any useful diagnosis.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Todd, Here is a very simple sketch of what I mean...


Makes perfect sense now!  I wasn't thinking about the need for a crossmember to attach both arms to the chassis.

I like it. 

I hope you get some good news next week Woody.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Cheers Todd, I will look for a bit of 2mm sheet steel to fold a wing.

It does mean that I may have to rebuild the rear part of the swing arm to use round tube instead of the 70x40mm box section.

I'll let you know what the consultant finds, a working brain maybe?


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Ahh!
Tim of the BVS said you were ill when I was giving him a hand with his E-Van but I had no idea what it was about, your age, ( I know now you are young)...

You don't live so far from us. I'm in Wigan. Near the stop before Chorley where your inspiration for the reverse trike came from 

I have no idea if Andrew from Chorley has obtained any proper batteries yet. That could make three E-trikes in the locality, all being well.

I understand how you are piecing yours together now. It's the most practical way. However, I'd just weld on a length of square section which has swing arm lugs. Instead of a wing section which will be far more flimsy and harder to make. Twisting of the back wheel on corners would be a problem with your set up. 

Another idea I'm bandying about with my trike. I have to get into it from above so I'm not using a handlebars or a steering wheel. Instead its going to be a couple of levers each side.

About 01:30 in you can see what I mean.





All the best for those tests young fella. Believe me, they are often not very conclusive.


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## tido (Sep 20, 2011)

wow nice project.

If only this kind of thing was legal here...


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

tido said:


> wow nice project.
> 
> If only this kind of thing was legal here...


Why should such a vehicle be unlawful in Canada?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Beemer said:


> Ahh!
> Tim of the BVS said you were ill when I was giving him a hand with his E-Van but I had no idea what it was about, your age, ( I know now you are young)...
> 
> You don't live so far from us. I'm in Wigan. Near the stop before Chorley where your inspiration for the reverse trike came from
> ...


Ha, I'm 45, not so young, not so old but also not so well.

The last I heard about Andrew was that he had sold his trike and given up on the whole electric thing as a bad job. I read an article of his in Kit Car magazine and it seemed he was of the opinion that there was no future in it and that second hand values of manufactured EVs would be worthless.

I will likely go with the wing section as I can make it as strong as is needed adn make it look nice. The amount of work isn't a problem, what else can I do with my time? It could be said that the work I've done on the motor isn't necessary but it sure looks good!
Anyway, now I am not teaching anymore, and unlikely to have the long commute in future, the trike is more a sculptural piece then a practical piece, a proper custom hotrod.

The steering levers for yours sounds like a good idea, just double check that it meets the MSVA requirements. They may just refuse something they hadn't considered before. However, I think it would be a good alternative if the 'feel' for the road at speed is sufficient. Have you driven that way before? My Ratrike is like that as are many HPVs and velomobiles.


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## tido (Sep 20, 2011)

Beemer said:


> Why should such a vehicle be unlawful in Canada?


In quebec, we simply aren't allowed to drive something home built.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

tido said:


> In quebec, we simply aren't allowed to drive something home built.


That is so mean.

Over here is it a lot tougher to build something and get it legal.

When I built my first vehicle, a 6x6 truck loosely based on a Land Rover, the only difficulty was affording insurance.
Now there are regulations and a fairly serious inspection process on top but nothing that common sense and safety would dictate.

One of the more difficult issues, for some, is the paper trail to prove components have been bought legitimately and not from stolen vehicles.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

tido said:


> In quebec, we simply aren't allowed to drive something home built.


Yes I know you are in Quebec. So many who live in your state cry from the roof tops how free you all are. The irony never goes amiss.

Canada has a couple of reverse trike "manufacturers". 

The definition of "home built" is an extremely precarious perch for any law to rest upon. If you register as a business then they are stumped. Next you play the normal registration game. The only caveat for Canada is a law that the height of the C of G is equal to or less than 1.5x the distance to the wheels and the wheels must be fairly equally loaded.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Andy Kirks trike would of been much better if he did not load it down with lead. He basically drove around with an anchor affixed to the road and proclaimed EV's were slow. He quickly burned out his unsuitable batteries in the process.

Done the maths. When it comes to charge consumption, weight is everything. Followed by air resistance for velocity. I'm hoping for 40% Cell mass with 22x180AH LiFePo4's. The maths states 240 miles range at 80% DoD. The fat tyres might offset that number much further down... Am going to choose "eco" tyres to fuel my love for free wheeling everywhere.

If/when this is made I will have to knock on Mr. Kirk's door and let him know what he is missing. 

I've not found much about the method of steering in the MSVA (EU rules which that trike complies with) but plenty about the method of control, i.e. switch gear and controls. Road feel will be very direct! Can use the bell cranks at angles to slow the steering on centre and speed them up on tight turns. 

Today I've won a yellow go-kart tillet seat and 14" alloy wheel rims from fleabay. 
Should look quite nice with the "three legged" theme.







Will have to source a couple of 6"Dia x ~1" alloy to make a couple of wheel adapters. This quad wheels PCD is like 135mm.

Still a bit fuzzy on what to use for the back end construction though. All in good time....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you looked at my reply to you on the BVS site?

Loads of stuff about swing arms.

It may also be useful to have a look at the Reverse Trike Forum.

Have you started a build thread here yet?
It'll be good to see what you have to work with.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Hey Ta matey. I stone forgot all about that place since I lost my old home folder. Not been back to the BVS site atm. Will do! 

I'd rather know everything I'm talking about before putting all down. So many area's where I might come completely unstuck. I think it might also create copyright issues because I'm mostly going off paid plans from MEV.

However, what I do that is not their own I can and will talk and bandy about with no compunction, warts n all. .

I'll not be around a pc this weekend and I'll have time to think of carrying on through various time lines of component arrival.... Should I just get on with making the chassis now or consider the rear end fittings? lol

Should electric trikes have their own thread? As a car and bike owner... They do have something to offer.

I still think your wing section swing arm will be scary on the corners.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, a new year and a chance for an update of where I have been and what I have been doing.

Health problems:
I have had a brain scan and fortunately I don't have a tumour or a stroke. I do, however, have a problem with my brain knowing where my extremities are so hand dexterity and walking have been compromised. I am working on readjusting this through exercise and activity.
I have memory loss, both short term memory and long term memory in somewhat randomly specific areas. I am still working out what I have forgotten and what I only think I know. Much of the lost memories appears to be around the technical stuff over the last 10-12 years. My brain has developed a habit of 'making up nonsense' to fill in the gaps during conversation.
It is why I haven't posted much as I have been aware that some of what I post have been wrong.

Work:
I am slowly working towards being work fit again by working on my house to repair the memories in a way that will allow me to work again. The teaching is over as I don't even know if I have been teaching nonsense prior to being off sick so I am back to doing odd jobs, carpentry, plumbing and electrical, but nothing critical. Also I am working on designing jewellery as the items are small and I can remember the whole process for the durations of the job.
Here's one that has gone to a professional concert/solo cello player in Europe.








In addition I have been designing bicycle accessories, saddle bags and specialist components. Again small jobs.

The important bit:
The trike has been mothballed for a while and the tractor too.
The main reason has been lack of funds and lack of certainty over what I remember of the design process for safety and for making things in the right order. I thought for a while that I was OK but then realised silly and stupid mistakes I had made so I stopped working on them.
Hopefully as I improve this year I will be able to make some progress again.

I haven't been idle as far as the site is concerned as I am still actively checking for spam most days and moving posts as requested, general admin stuff so I am still about.

Good to see so much happening here.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Happy New Year Woody! 

I'm glad to hear that it's not a tumor, and that you're proactively working on ways to adjust and deal with whatever is causing your symptoms. Do they have any ideas on what it might be?

The necklace is pretty cool.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Happy New Year Woody!
> 
> I'm glad to hear that it's not a tumor, and that you're proactively working on ways to adjust and deal with whatever is causing your symptoms. Do they have any ideas on what it might be?
> 
> The necklace is pretty cool.


Happy new year Todd.

The hospital consultant suggests that the physical sysmptoms are probably a nervous system disorder of unknown cause and I only have to re train my brain to know where my hands hand feet are. Also I can re train my brain to cope with the dizziness in the same way to stop me falling over. The memory loss he thinks is a symptom of work stress. He thinks my brain has sort of partitioned off a whole chunk of memories relating to the period of my college work as that is where the stress stemmed from. My brain probably did that to save my sanity much like trauma victims will forget the pain to cope with the aftermath.
His advice was to get as far away from the college as I could, immediately, and never return. I guess he figured it was quite bad.
I hadn't even considered it as a stress thing until then. I guess he read my medical notes properly, and for the first time, and realised what no one else was seeing as it was a gradual build up.

Memories are there, I see them sometimes, but my brain is doing silly things like conjouring up mad psycodelic dreams when I wake up in the mornings so I don't know if I am awake or dreaming I am awake, or awake and dreaming at the same time. Most times I don't sleep so there is no wake up either.

I have therapy, mostly back to work stuff but hopefully it will work. I just need to learn not to expect quick results nor to do as much as I am used to doing. I have resigned from the theatre tonight to remove another demanding pressure on my time and efforts. I can now just do the things I have to do to get well. Nothing else takes priority for now.
My job clients are pretty cool about it and are happy to leave me keys so I can do jobs for them as and when I am able.


The pendant is really nice and tactile. I can also say that I nurtured the tree for 15 years, I cut down the tree when it was damaged, I planked the wood, I seasoned the wood and then I selected the piece to make the pendent.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes *HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!*

So good to hear from you on this site ...

Working in an abstract form of the medical field - makes me wonder what Neurotoxin got to you - cause it is a guess - aspartame neurotoxin (diet crap)? (_Disclaimer placed here_, Google aspartame neurotoxin - all of you diet pop etc users it has put people in wheelchairs )...

Please feel free to post all the nonsense you wish and those of us that have been here ( and some of us that have been there) will read between the lines


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> Yes *HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!*
> 
> So good to hear from you on this site ...
> 
> ...


Happy new year to you too, Dave.

I don't know what got to me. I had a look at Aspartame and I don't think I have much contact with it. I don't drink pop or diet drinks, prefering fresh fruit juice, but I have just checked the contents list on the diluted cordial drinks I have here. I will have to check the long words in the listings later and have a look at other food stuff in the cupboard.
Mostly I just have fresh meat, veg and fruit.

I will try and post more frequently but most times I struggle to get sufficient coherent thoughts together and then type them.

I 'forgot' how to write for a short while and so I have been getting back into hand writing. At the same time my typing was nonexistant. My fingers would just go 'sjdsfu ipqw wjlsd lsnfsIGM' and I would have to rewrite everything a couple of times just to make it a languge.


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

Happy New Year, I've been missing your updates on your projects. Get well soon, I will keep you in my prayers.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Hi Woody, its good to know you are on the mend. Time to unclutter your life and sleep on everything.

Last time I saw young Tim Pootle and asked about you he said you were quite poorly.

As goes dreams, they are the time when your mind goes into defrag, throws out the old junk and finds answers. Expect them to be troublesome for a while. Learn to chill out and you'll be fine 

Due to me having a g/f who keeps taking up my time and keeps asking "where's my seat going to be?". Things have slowed right down in the Beemer pit.

I've now more or less sorted the shopping list of parts.
Emrax BLDC motor, EnerDel T-HE cells (162of), space frame, yadda yadda. Going to be expensive, quick 150 miles range and hopefully fun.

IF I get it done this summer, will hopefully pop over to yours and let you have a spin if your licence is returned in time 

andy


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Good to hear you're slowly putting things back together. We missed you. You realise though that lots of people pay good money for mind-altering experiences like yours? 

My mum and a good friend have both had serious neurological problems recently so I know how frightening it can be and how good the brain can be at outwardly covering up internal gaps. Take your time. It sounds as if you're already on the right track, getting back to making craft items with your hands.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you very much for your kind thoughts and words. 

Today is a sudden mental and physical slowdown day and my typing is pained and tedious. Work I had wanted to do isn't going to happen today so I will rest and see what I can do later on.

Duh, many typos in that to correct!

If anyone wants to buy my mind altering experiences I have plenty to spare and could do with the funds!

I haven't been in touch with Tim for a while now, I should catch up.
My gf has been fantastically good about it all though, she takes me on bike rides to keep me active and is learning craft making skills from me to keep me mentally challenged.

We have decided that this year I will do a 100mile ride on a Brompton folding bike. I fancy it being a non stop but Arch says I have to have cake stops, at least 4 of them.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

All the best from me Woodsmith. I wish you a speedy recovery but I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to engage fully in this modern world in which we live...reality is pretty weird nowadays!!!

All the very best

Adam


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Best of the new year for you, Woodsmith. I hope you recover from your dysfunctions. Never give up, even when it looks like there may not be any improvement. It will take time. I am glad you are getting rid of the most stress-inducing parts of your life - these are the ones most likely to cause further problems. 

here is hoping to your future recovery
Dawid


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks guys, slow and sure for now and no pressures.

I do miss my 'metal bashing' antics though.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Woody,

I've been away from the forum for a few months, suffering from a bit of burnout. I was totally unaware of your medical issues. Keep your spirits up and you can lick this. We all want to see your trike up and running.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

electromet said:


> Woody,
> 
> I've been away from the forum for a few months, suffering from a bit of burnout. I was totally unaware of your medical issues. Keep your spirits up and you can lick this. We all want to see your trike up and running.


Cheers, I'm not beaten, and won't be.

My health has improved somewhat. The physical symptoms have imporves a lot though my mental health ones are still suspect.

I changed my migraine meds and then forgot to take them all together for a couple of weeks and the physical stuff has been clearing up quite rapidly. I think it could have been long term side effects building up.

Anyhow, I have dug out my boxes of Lego Technic a couple of days ago and been playing/working with it today.

This is the first draft of the trike to approximately close scale. The wheel base is a scale 6" longer then I was planning and the track width is about 3" wider. The bonnet/hood height needs to come up a bit to give clearence for the batteries.









































































I am planning to try to fit the spare wheel in the front under some of the pack and also to use the same size wheel as I have on the rear to save on two wheel and tyre sizes.

The pack will be split in front and behind the front axle.

The back is going to be a tubular frame in the form of a 'tray back' as found on some 4x4 off road trucks. I was thinking of chrome or black tubing with steel mesh to make the base and have it as a giant luggage rack. Any luggage will need to be in weather proof bags but that is a matter of course for someone who also cycles.

There will need to be a roll over hoop over the back half of the cockpit and there will be no windscreen to make it easier to get road legal. I am undecided on having a front hoop to tie into the rear hoop as yet.

I will carry on working on it to improve the scale and proportions and to add in more of the design detail. I will also see if I can get in a scale pack.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I was waitIng for this post!


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Heyyyy! Good to see you back!

I'd not consider the dead weight of a spare tyre on such a light vehicle. It will add up badly on your electric consumption.

Here's a site I've just been reading about the gains and pitfalls of reverse trike design. It's a nice read!

http://www.clevislauzon.qc.ca/Professeurs/Mecanique/ethierp/3-wheels/config.htm

Some great examples too.

A.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Glad to be of service, Todd! 

Cheers, Beemer. 
I thought long and hard about the spare and decided that I want to carry one. I don't have many punctures but the times I have had were times when a spare was the only option.

Also, now I don't work 35 miles away, I don't have to worry so much about a specific range.

Another part of the reasons for the spare going at the front was to keep it out of the airflow, so not hung on the side or on the luggage rack, and also to keep the weight at the front for that 2/3 1/3 f/r weight distribution. The rear seating, heavy motor and tray back strong enough to carry a tow ball makes the rear weight a bit higher then I would like.
Currently it is looking more like a 650+kg vehicle but I would be happier with the look and feel then a teeny tiny thing on skinny rubber. 
It is much more going to be a fun hotrod then an economy commuter.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

At 650Kg+ it will not be a hot rod, fun or an economy vehicle and any puncture will flatten the tyre to the rim.
Weight begets weight. Then each time over you will require even more cells, more power and less usable volume.

What's wrong with a car puncture repair outfit? There's one in my motorbike and the only time it was needed was for a friend and it stayed fixed all week until he changed his tyre.

Airflow and cornering traction: Go for tandem seating and sit further forward and underfloor batteries. Safety while accelerating on a turn means front wheel drive is best in case a wheel lifts. 'fraid I cannot do that with my parts bin 

Whatever front end steering you are using its very wise to maintain the same wheelbase or you will have wheel alignment problems in a turn. An Issue 'll be having if not careful 

Oh the web we weave.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

We might have a different definition of fun.
Fun for me is not too fast, not too wild, and too much trouble if something goes wrong. I do want the trike to conform to a certain look I have in my mind though and forwad tandem seating and underfloor batteries don't fit it too well.
I did play around with the tandem seating but it made the wheel base too long. I am trying to keep it close to MGB wheelbase/track proportions adapted to the wider front track I am stretching it to.

Anyway, we'll see how it all works when it is built, and I will own up if it is rubbish.

I wouldn't have though puncture kits, tyre weld and the like, would work on a wire wheel with tubes. They never used to in the past.
I have though about carrying tyre pliers and levers though with spare tubes and patches.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Ditto! And now wouldn't it be cool if you built it for real with giant Legos ...
Stuff in the motor and batteries and ......

LOL!

Keep in there !

I am lurking.....


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Hey Woody

I really like the leggo car but you have made a bad mistake. 

The steering wheel is on the wrong side

Jim


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

Oh, inner tubes are a bane. If I had a set of wire wheels and you had flat plain steels. I'd swap you on a heartbeat! It's also another drag factor. They ruin economy (acceleration & range).

I'm after making this trike weigh under 400lb, 0-60mph in fun time and (apparently a) 180mile range. only a single rider but storage for camping gear and a paraglider!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Hey Woody
> 
> I really like the leggo car but you have made a bad mistake.
> 
> ...


But it is on the right side.


I am going to re work it a little today, the cockpit is a little too wide for scale and the swing arm needs to be a more accurate shape.
Steering wheel is a little small too, scale size is about 10".


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...Steering wheel is a little small too, scale size is about 10".


That's the diameter of the Inhaler Model E's steering wheel, in real life. Back to our conversation about designing around the occupants - it's the result of designing the car first and then stuffing a driver and passenger in where I can fit them - that's what will fit, a 10" wheel! Wrap that same body style (modified a bit) around the occupants in Schism and I have room for a 13.5" wheel.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have reworked the model a bit, much the same way Todd adjusts his drawings.

The cockpit is a bit narrower, the rear swing arm and motor are now also narrower and the right proportions.
I am also trying an alternative spare wheel mount.

























EV display dashboard?


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

Hello you.

I'm glad to see your trike is doing just over three of something, according to the dashboard....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi honey!

I think it is as slow as Beryl, the state of charge lights on the dash are all red!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> I have reworked the model a bit, much the same way Todd adjusts his drawings....


In that case, a couple hundred more revisions and you'll be in the ballpark... 

One question: How will the rear rack/tow hitch effect vehicle handling? I ask because it's channeling the forces from the trailer pretty high up into the chassis. I'm pretty much clueless on reverse trike dynamics, so take my questions and concerns with a grain of salt; it's curiousity more than anything.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> In that case, a couple hundred more revisions and you'll be in the ballpark...
> 
> One question: How will the rear rack/tow hitch effect vehicle handling? I ask because it's channeling the forces from the trailer pretty high up into the chassis. I'm pretty much clueless on reverse trike dynamics, so take my questions and concerns with a grain of salt; it's curiousity more than anything.


Don't know yet.
In my drawings the tray back is attached closed to the swing arm mount/the frame/roll hoops/motor mounting and the strongest part of the whole thing. It is really supposed to be two triangulated frames that arc over the wheel to the hitch making a rigid cage over the wheel.

I have no idea if it would work dynamically but I was thinking that it might be worth experimenting with to see if it can pull a small motor bike sized trailer. It would be useful if it could pull a small load of rubble to the local tip though. But it isn't an essential part of the design as I can always look at making the tractor road legal.

I shall make a Lego trailer and see how it works/looks.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Wordsmith,
Looking at your trike I am not sure where the three wheeler has an advantage over a four wheeler Locost type car.

You seem to be ending up with a bigger heavier car than a Locost

A sit astride trike is a lot smaller 

If you go for a side by side configuration I think a direct drive to a Subaru/Mazda rear suspension unit would enable you to move the seats back a long way and give an ocean of space where the Locost keeps its engine for batteries 

I like the idea of a trike but it needs to be smaller and lighter - maybe a smaller motor?

(from somebody who is putting a 100Kg motor in a car with a design weight of under 500Kg)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That had crossed my mind, that a four wheel car would be so much easier to build and with fewer issues raised about handling and weight, but it is just fancying having a trike.

Had I started building from the front end it would be easy to change my mind but I started with a big motor and built a swing arm around it.

I had also thought about just getting an MGB shell and having that as direct drive with the 11" motor in the tunnel.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_I had also thought about just getting an MGB shell and having that as direct drive with the 11" motor in the tunnel.

_It's funny how things change 
- when I were a lad - 
The MGB was rudely described as an A60 coupe and was considered incredibly heavy - but then I was a mini driver - everything was heavy

You may be surprised at how light you can make your trike - a simple mild steel semi space-frame chassis made of 25mm square 1.6mm tubing will be surprisingly light,

I expect the MGB bits will be lighter than the Subaru bits I'm using- 

Wire wheels ----- lots of weight, lots of cleaning, unreliable, ....._ look good though
_


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> The MGB was rudely described as an A60 coupe and was considered incredibly heavy


It still is a heavy car, I remember pushing mine a few times when the starter was worn out, not fun nor easy.



Yes, I could save a lot of weight if I really wanted to.

Twin Agni motors
Cromoly tube space frame
Air bag suspension
Skinny alloy wheels
A123 pack
Carbon fiber body panels
Split up with Arch

Don't really want to do any of that, especially the last one.

So really it is going to be 'how light can I go' keeping the big motor, wire wheels and honey seat without the huge expense of exotic materials and costly pack chemistry.

Realistically I could lose the tray back and tow hitch and mount a removable luggage rack. 
I could keep to the smaller and narrower front wheels and have a matching spare as it would fit the back for emergency use.
I could use glass fibre for the body panels instead of 'boat building in wood' and I could use moulded seating instead of upholstered leather.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Don't know yet...
> 
> I shall make a Lego trailer and see how it works/looks.







Woodsmith said:


> That had crossed my mind, that a four wheel car would be so much easier to build and with fewer issues raised about handling and weight, but it is just fancying having a trike...


I get it. More than ever (no critical commuting needs) it's a design project. True satisfaction comes as much or more from _what_ it is. That big motor hanging off the back of the chassis, driving a single wheel is the heart and soul of the vehicle - much like the exposed V-twin on the front of a Morgan. 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Realistically I could lose the tray back and tow hitch and mount a removable luggage rack...


That's worth considering. It would also clean-up your design and keep the focus on your motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, been working on the Lego again.

I have removed the tray back and added a light weight, and probably removable luggage frame. The front wheels are smaller (scale is too wide though diameter is about right) and I have reduced the 'weight' of the roll hoop to be to scale.

I have also added 'Hamlet' as a scale stand in driver, he is the right width but a little short in stature.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Looking good Woody! Much cleaner, neater - more trike-ish. Better watch Hamlet doesn't try to run off with your honey! 

You should whittle a curvy little wooden hood - bonnet? - to replace the Legos there, and bring out the design...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Yes, I agree, looking much cleaner now. I also think your marketing strategy would be much more effective if you got the Stig to model rather than Richard Hammond...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> I also think your marketing strategy would be much more effective if you got the Stig to model rather than Richard Hammond...


It would have to be American Stig.









I'm not going to make a wooden bonnet, well not yet anyway.
I haven't got a clear image in my head about how I want the front of the trike to look yet. There is no motor there, no radiator, nothing of interest to build around and no particular style icon I'd like to emulate that would really work.
Thoughts of Napier Railton and Blower Bentleys don't quite fit, nice though they are.

When I find the inspiration I will see if it is possible in Lego but if not I might make something.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Twin Agni motors
> Cromoly tube space frame
> Air bag suspension
> Skinny alloy wheels
> ...


I'm very glad to hear it.... I suppose there is always that diet we've been half heartedly trying to stick to since Christmas!



Woodsmith said:


> OK, been working on the Lego again.
> 
> I have also added 'Hamlet' as a scale stand in driver, he is the right width but a little short in stature.


I'm soooooo glad you didn't put him in my seat!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Arch said:


> I'm soooooo glad you didn't put him in my seat!


Yes dear!


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Wordsmith,


 
You change your occupation?
Great to have you back.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

grayballs said:


> You change your occupation?
> Great to have you back.


I had spotted that.

Maybe Duncan is right, I am writing more then I am making!


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> Yes dear!



Ok, I have big ears, and look just a little bit dim, but hey, I'm smiling....


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Woodsmith

Sorry about the Wordsmith - 
I think it was Freudian - 
I am feeling guilty because I am siting here typing rather than spannering in the shed


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Woodsmith
> 
> Sorry about the Wordsmith -
> I think it was Freudian -
> I am feeling guilty because I am siting here typing rather than spannering in the shed


You and me both so no worries.
I'd much rather be spannering then typing right now but such is life.


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## FireCrow (Nov 11, 2011)

Damn, Woody, if you only weren't on the wrong side of the island, I'd happily give you a hand with shaping up the body...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

FireCrow said:


> Damn, Woody, if you only weren't on the wrong side of the island, I'd happily give you a hand with shaping up the body...


That's a kind offer.
When I am more able to tackle the build I may come back to you for some help or advice.


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## FireCrow (Nov 11, 2011)

Depends on how light you want to go! Carbon fiber is the lightest and strongest possibly available (plus the style, fashion factor) but it's expensive as hell. Kevlar has similar abilities, but price is similar to carbon. Then there's glass, and that's where I'd go. I do a bit of work with self expanding foam to get the shape first, then glass it. With correct thickness should be strong yet light at the same time. And you can get whatever shape you want, which is great. I personally love the stuff, but takes some time to get the skill with it. Well, anyway, I keep checking the forum on regular basis, as I want to convert my Focus MK2 sometime in the future. I'll be glad to see some updates from you builds!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Firecrow
"Carbon fiber is the lightest and strongest possibly available"

Only if you use pre-pregs and vacuum forming,
With a wet layup and vacuum bagging S Glass has a better strength/weight ratio
If you are trying to do a wet lay-up without bagging S Glass has a much better strength/weight ratio

The reason is that glass is much easier to "wet out" than carbon fiber, this means that with a hand lay-up you have to use much more resin than with S glass


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## FireCrow (Nov 11, 2011)

Thank you for correcting me, sir! I haven't done anything with carbon yet, mainly due to the costs of it, secondly, because I didn't need to... By the way, I didn't even know there is something like S-glass (and E-glass...)! Thank you once again, I shall do a bit more research, especially on the availability and costs of it in UK


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Firecrow

Somewhere I have a superb book on building composite aircraft - I think it was by Bert Rutan 

It starts with the basics and works up through making (and braking) test samples, 
I got this in 1997 when I was working with the local high school on a Solar Racer
(Solar Stealth won the "World Championship" (of American High Schools) two years running

Really good information I will try and find it and let you know the ISBN

There is a ton of information on this website - 
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/

American unfortunately - you will have to find UK suppliers - which is a LOT easier than finding New Zealand suppliers


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...There is a ton of information on this website -
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/...


...and http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Learning_Center


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Two useful links there, thank you.

I am still uncertain as to the body material. Glass would be the easy option, hand beaten aluminium would the nicest and I still hope I would, one day, be able to consider wood again.


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

I think carbon fibers main claim to fame is its high modulus of elasticity. This gives it good rigidity even in extremely thin parts. Generally speaking the thinner a part is the more flexible it is. For some parts in compression rigidity would be more important to the overall strength of the part than the strength of the fibers it is composed of. I think Kevlar’s key property is its toughness and from what I understand is actually stronger than carbon just not nearly as stiff. Both carbon and glass are brittle and prone to sudden catastrophic failure on overload, Kevlar is not brittle and hence more forgiving. Foam and fiberglass sandwich construction was an attempt to add rigidity to a part by adding thickness in the form of a light and rigid foam core. This is good for one off structures as they can be built and carved easily in foam and then glassed inside and out for strength.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

After a long break from this project I have acquired another 'important part' that will go towards the trike.

With thanks to johnsiddle, he picked up a reversing switch from the other end of the country for me. It was from a milk float and he picked it up while collecting his rather nice 11" motor.


























It needs a lot of cleaning up to remove the accumulation of grease and grime but underneath is a functional change over switch with big contacts and brass rotors. It also has a microswitch trigger on a cam so it can shut off the controller before breaking the contacts to ensure it only switches off load.
The control lever is just a bit of round bar with a ball on the end but that can be replace with a nicely turned handle for that steam punk look.

I will leave it soaking for a while before I tackle cleaning it.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Woody,

Got a couple of question about that reversing switch. What do you think it weighs? Do you think it could handle 1000 amps for 20 seconds? what size cable does it appear to use.

I have a Curtis Albright SW200 (or 202??) reversing contactor and I'm looking for something lighter and simpler with no electrical crap to fail on the big 13 tractor.

Thanks for any info,
Jim


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

(It won't let me just post that, but that's all I wanted to communicate!)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Woody,
> 
> Got a couple of question about that reversing switch. What do you think it weighs? Do you think it could handle 1000 amps for 20 seconds? what size cable does it appear to use.
> 
> ...


It weighs about 2kg with all the ironwork on it.
Not sure, just yet, what it could handle but I will clean it up and see what size the parts are. It might just be able to handle a lot for a while, maybe with stronger contact springs and the contacts bedding in to give a bigger contact area.
The cable terminals look like they would take 70sqmm cable (AWG 00) maybe? About 10mm diameter hole.

A milkfloat could weigh about 3-4 tons at 48-96v so could be a lot of current when starting off on a hill.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> (It won't let me just post that, but that's all I wanted to communicate!)


We need a "Like" button Todd (with a grin ) ..


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> (It won't let me just post that, but that's all I wanted to communicate!)



That's what I was like when I found it was available and John was happy to pick it up for me.


Jim,
There was another one but one of the rotors was missing.

It might be possible to use the switch as a pattern to make a stronger one.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...It might be possible to use the switch as a pattern to make a stronger one.


I would be interested in that, if you don't mind being flattered in the sincerest form (imitation...). A mechanical reversing switch would be a nice touch on Schism, since my current theme is turn of the 20th century horseless carriage.


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## Arch (Aug 21, 2011)

Woodsmith said:


> I am still uncertain as to the body material. Glass would be the easy option, hand beaten aluminium would the nicest and* I still hope I would, one day, be able to consider wood again*.


I think your tractor proves that this is a goer!

That switch looks like it needs to be exposed to the sort of person who likes polishing ball bearings...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I would be interested in that, if you don't mind being flattered in the sincerest form (imitation...). A mechanical reversing switch would be a nice touch on Schism, since my current theme is turn of the 20th century horseless carriage.


I have the switch part dismembered and soaking in some biodiesel at the moment. When it is clean I will look at doing a drawing of it, or a photographic guide of it. I am sure you can then CAD it and get a couple, or three, machined up. I am sure Jim will be interested in the Todd uprated version.



Arch said:


> I think your tractor proves that this is a goer!
> 
> That switch looks like it needs to be exposed to the sort of person who likes polishing ball bearings...


I am getting keen on the woody body again, it will need to be a finer and thinner construction though as that tractor hood is damned heavy!

I know someone who likes polishing ball bearings, Arch.  If the switch isn't clean by the weekend feel free to have a go at it all.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...When it is clean I will look at doing a drawing of it, or a photographic guide of it. I am sure you can then CAD it and get a couple, or three, machined up. I am sure Jim will be interested in the Todd uprated version....


Evil grin... 





Woodsmith said:


> ...I am getting keen on the woody body again...


Awesome.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey Woody, are you using this switch in place of ALL electronic contactors?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey Woody, are you using this switch in place of ALL electronic contactors?


No, just the reversing ones.

I will probably invest in a Kilovac for the main switching just for good sense, though I would love a huge 'Frankinstein-esque' knife switch. I doubt I could get the trike road legal with that though!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> No, just the reversing ones.
> 
> I will probably invest in a Kilovac for the main switching just for good sense, though I would love a huge 'Frankinstein-esque' knife switch. I doubt I could get the trike road legal with that though!


Gotcha. I didn't realize I typed cont*R*actor...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's ok Todd, I fixed it for you in the quote.

Right, I have given the switch a quick clean and have pics of the important parts.










There is damage. The springy copper leaves on the contact closest to the camera has three broken leaves at the mounting end. Notice the second one up has a burned copper contact.
The copper contacts on the ends are 3/4" wide.









The brass cable terminals have 11mm holes. I guess they could be made with stud terminals.









The brass contact rotors are 3" diameter.
There is damage to one of them, I would assume that dirt got in there and allowed that one to arc. There is similar signs of arcing on the corresponding copper contact. The others look pretty good for their age.









This is the rotor spindle. It is square stock turned at each end. A cam is welded on and there are insulating square tubes fitted to it.









I will get some more dimensions when I get a chance.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Should be able to replace those broken copper strips looks like they may come apart easy!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The copper strips are riveted together so I would need some copper rivets. Should be easy.
They are also very springy and the construction seems to put tension in the contact arm once bolted up so I think it will need to be work hardened or rolled thin or it will be to soft. Possible I guess.

I am thinking that while John was picking it up for me it would have been wise to have bought the other one, with the missing rotor, for spares.

Done nothing with it today, been too headachey, not quite migraine but not far off.

Off back to bed again in a bit to recover.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

In amongst other activities today I stopped off to have a look at the reversing switch parts.

They didn't look too bad overall.

I figured that the brass rotors were the most damaged parts but as there were only three contact points on each rotor that were going to carry current it would be worth cleaning them up.
The wiped areas, I figured, only need to be smooth to reduce wear on the copper contacts.

I set to with a file and removed the worst of the pitted areas and then decided to remove the ridges on each side of the wiped areas from contact point to contact point.
I did as much as I could draw filing to maintain a flat contact area around the curve of the rotor.










I will need to repeat with a fine file and then polish up with a fine abrasive paper.

The copper contacts look good overall and I just carefully knocked off the lumpy bits of brass that had arced across.

I might look at rebuilding the frame that the rotors fit into to reduce the number of steel parts. I will also look into fitting some bushes or bearings to the rotor spindle as it originally was just steel on steel with a loose fit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have been itching to get on with my trike, and even have ideas to get rid of the chain and have shaft drive, but I am putting it on hold, completely, due to concerns about an EU _proposal _that could prevent it ever being road legal.

I have started a thread about it in Chat:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78399

If the _proposal_ goes through then I guess I have no possible road projects.

I shall concentrate on tractors for the time being.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, that really sucks Woody. I'm sorry to see that. I guess racing or shows would be an automotive hobbyist's only way to enjoy tinkering with and driving custom cars. 

I was so looking forward to seeing this trike someday, but completely understand why you wouldnt want to pour your heart, time, and money, into something you can never really enjoy.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I will just have to hold off on it until something happens one way or the other.

There could be legal allowances somewhere but I can't invest on a hope. Equally I don't do competitions and racing any more because I don't want the constraints of the rules for a vehicle I can't drive on a daily basis.

The way it reads (if I understand it correctly) I might not be able to take an old MG and put an electric motor in it.

I will have to invest time in reading all the EU documents and working out the constraints.




Anyway,
I was thinking of developing the trike as an asymmetric body with a 1+1 seating slightly right of the centre line. The motor sitting to the left of the driver's seat and driving a shaft to the rear wheel.
The motor will be 'hung' outside of the cockpit in view with the frontal bodywork directing airflow into the CE of the motor.

I originally rejected the shaft drive as I figured the two final drive units I have couldn't cope with the offset loading from my big wire wheel.
However, I already have a swing arm that will handle the loading with a chain drive. I can remove the sprocket drive and replace it with the bevel gear final drive from the BMW or Yamaha unit and then shaft drive it from the motor.
The motor drive shaft would run down the outside of the cockpit, and the swing arm, to the final drive with just a fine mesh cage over it and some sparkly UJs flicking around in view. 

Though I like symmetry I also like the idea of a 'jet engine' side pod of motor on the kerb side.


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## Beemer (Jun 2, 2011)

For a full size reverse trike I'd consider a complete front wheel drive off a small car. For a song you get almost all you need. If a front wheel lifts on cornering the drive is lost so you cannot flip so easily. The fraught difficulties of the back end will be simplified.

Far too car like for me, however, here's Celso's fine example.
http://www.veeco.pt/





For C of G and space. I'd lie the cells under a false floor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

*I have split this thread at this point as the build project has changed direction significantly and warrants a thread of its own. 

The new thread can be found here.** 

Please post new messages there in relation to the new project direction. 
Any questions about the old project can still be posted here and I will reply.*


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