# Electric passenger van



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

you first have to ask yourself if you really NEED a large van, or could get by with a smaller, lighter, manual tranny wagon? If you stick with the van, be aware that auto-trans complicates things significantly as you have to pump fluid and figure out how to trigger shift points and such... With a large heavy vehicle you'll also have to power a steering pump.

If you stick with the van you have LOTS of room under to cut holes in the floor and hang some racks for batteries, but you have diminishing return of weight versus energy on board with more and more batteries. I'd guess that 144v worth of 8v Lead would be within your vehicle GVW and would give you 40 miles, but maybe not 50 or 60.


----------



## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

As mentioned above, consider a smaller, lighter vechicle ... look for something that has room, 4-5 seats, but is much smaller. I think someone on here just found a Kia Rio (or the like) for under a grand and that can carry most everything you need. If you need more carry space, consider a tow-hitch and a small lightweight aluminum trailer.

For a controller ... you will want a high amp model if you plan to carry a lot around. The three I can think of are the Raptor 1200, Soliton1 and the Zilla (various models)

All three have advantages and disadvantages. Search the forums to read opinons (I can't give any as it haven't used any of them).

The higher your voltage the less amps you will pull ... Netgain is going to release a high voltage 11" motor soon (search EV Componets and contact them). It would be the best option in DC I can think of (and should be able to handle the colorado hills).

Go with Lithium batteries as they are the best option at the moment.

Hope this helps point you in the right direction.


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

280z1975 said:


> As mentioned above, consider a smaller, lighter vechicle ... look for something that has room, 4-5 seats, but is much smaller.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


Well, we have 7 kids so a smaller vehicle is not an option. As it stands, to have a minivan, we have to add an extra seat belt to the rear bench to legally seat everyone. The only fully legal option is a full size van, but those tip the scales at 7k lbs and wouldn't suit themselves well to an EV conversion right now. We currently have a Ford Club Wagon 12 Passenger van for primary use, but with a 351V8 it gets horrible mileage.

Thanks for the pointers, I'm still combing through the forums to get an idea of what I'm in for. The LiFE batteries seem to be a huge expense initially, but offer a better longevity and weight savings.

The Powerglide can be converted to a manual setup without a torque convertor, thereby saving most of the inherent losses in the automatic design and they can be built to handle some extreme torque thanks to the drag racing crowd. Basically what you end up with is a clutchless gearbox with two gears, a reverse gear, and a park lock. Sounds like the perfect EV solution ever since most people only use one gear for city driving and one for faster.

If I can get close with a 40 mile range, that would be acceptable for most all trips except things on the far side of town. It would also let me work the bugs out of the system while battery technology improves. I've been watching the EESTOR with interest for the last year and a half... sounds like a 'magic bullet' to me for the EV community. Hopefully it's not just smoke and mirrors that will disappear into vaporware.

Anyhow, please keep the comments coming. I need a little more practical knowledge on the planning stage of an EV as I'm not an EE.

Later,
Joe


----------



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

With 9 people (2 adult, 7 kids) on board and a lot of hills and the need for 50 miles of range, the ONLY batteries that will do the job are lithium. Given the hill situation it is probably also a good idea to consider an AC system, to get you regenerative braking. Regen provides additional safety (keeps you from burning up the brakes) and will buy you more range if you have a lot of descents that you find yourself riding the brakes on. Unfortunatley AC and a big lithium battery is not going to be cheap.

What kind of gas mileage does your van get when fully loaded, in the usage scenario you want? Most of us are used to small cars and light loads. At least with lead acid and a small car, the range you can get will be somewhere around what you could do on 1 to 2 gallons of gas before the car was converted.


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
The van is an excellent vehicle to convert but with AC not DC ---DC is less money but you get what you pay for. The hills are not a problem with the AC system and 50 miles is very doable but you will have to have Lithium battery's. The transmission in the ven is ok no need to change it.
We have a company that will lock out the converter for you. Our explorer weight in at 4400lb with the ice engine it now weights 5300lb with lead batteries soon to be change to Lithium. Top speed is 75 MPH
www.htcracing.com


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

I'm not opposed to doing AC except the price is a little prohibitive in the short term. Also, which size motor would I need for the van? I threw down some google-fu and came up with a weight of 4300 for the AWD model and 3800 for the 2wd model in 1996, putting it right in line with your Explorer. I noticed that you have a kit for the Explorer. Which motor size does it include?

On the transmission, why would you use the torque converter at all? I would think that you could have a coupler made that will replace the TC entirely since the motor doesn't turn while idling and makes enough off idle torque that it wouldn't be needed. 

On the Lithium packs, I would definitely like to go with Lithium, but the cost might be prohibitive, especially with the initial outlay for an AC system. Are there any specific recommendations on what to look for when assembling a pack?

Finally, one advantage to the Astro van is after 1995 the Astro/Safari went to hydroboost brakes, eliminating the requirement for Vacuum. A small pump for HVAC controls would be all that would be required so long as the P/S pump was being driven.

Thanks for the help.

Later,
Joe


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
The Motor would be the same as we have in the Explorer 80HP 280 foot pounds of torque from 0 to 2000 RPM. The gas engine had 260 FP of torque at 4500RPM. You need a transmission and the automatic is as good as the standard. Our Explorer shift at 0-25 in first gear 26-38 second gear 39-45 thread gear 46-70 Fourth gear. Remember An AC 336 High voltage system is just like the gas system. As for the converter it would be locked out we can set it up to shift with out it. That is what we do.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dragster said:


> Hi
> The van is an excellent vehicle to convert but with AC not DC ---*DC is less money but you get what you pay for.*...


Is that so... are you implying that all DC systems are cheap crap? I might have to take that personally...

VVVVVVVV


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

The DC system was developed for folk lift trucks and golf carts and they work just fine for that and light weight cars. The AC system we use was developed for heavy vehicles pick up trucks and SUV's both have there place. The person whom stared this thread is looking for a system to drive a heavy vehicle. Sorry I did not mean to up set you.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dragster said:


> The DC system was developed for folk lift trucks and golf carts and they work just fine for that and light weight cars.


Nope. While each type of motor technology has its own strengths and weaknesses, one thing a series DC motor has plenty of is torque. I would say you got this one exactly opposite.




dragster said:


> The AC system we use was developed for heavy vehicles pick up trucks and SUV's both have there place.


Who makes that AC system and how much does it cost? What is the actual peak power output it can deliver? We routinely get a single WarP 9 to deliver 100kW for 10-15 seconds when dyno testing our controller, and it's mainly the test setup's battery pack and the 3500 RPM limit of the dyno that prevents us from getting even more out of a single WarP 9. 

That DC motor and controller combo costs less than $5,000, btw.




dragster said:


> The person whom stared this thread is looking for a system to drive a heavy vehicle. Sorry I did not mean to up set you.


Nah, you didn't upset me, you just happen to be suggesting the exactly wrong motor for the OP's needs.

AC motors are more and more taking over the types of jobs that were strictly the province of DC motors, but they won't ever totally replace them. When it comes to starting torque, though, nothing beats a series dc motor, and that is what you need to accelerate a vehicle from a complete stop.


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi Tesseract,
Can you give me some more details on what kind of setup you would recommend for my application? Again, the vehicle will probably weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of 6k with batteries and the whole family in it.

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

If your drag racing then the DC system works best for short burst. However on this forum I have yet to see a 5300LB truck going 35 miles up and down hill at 75 miles PER HOUR. Do you think GM is building the chevy volt with an AC motor and picked the more expensive system because they liked to spend more money. As for starting off with any vehicle you can use the tuque from the electric motor but this use up a lot of amps. The first SUV we built we keep it in second gear and it had no problem taking off but used up a lot of amps and could only go 15 miles when we got the transmission working it was like a new vehicle I guess that is way the auto industries in vented them do you think!!


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dragster said:


> If your drag racing then the DC system works best for short burst. However on this forum I have yet to see a 5300LB truck going 35 miles up and down hill at 75 miles PER HOUR.


No, you can make a very capable "dragster" with AC, too. The Tesla's seem to be doing quite well - in stock form - at the track.

As for a 5300lb truck, no, you don't see them going up and down hills at 75mph all that often - whether gas, diesel or electric powered! Once again, AC does not confer some magic ability to drive up steep inclines with heavy loads. In fact, one could argue the opposite: after all, most large cranes and hoists still use series DC electric motors to do the heavy lifting, literally.




dragster said:


> Do you think GM is building the chevy volt with an AC motor and picked the more expensive system because they liked to spend more money.


I don't pretend to know why GM makes the decisions it does. 

I will submit, though, that there hasn't been a single car company in the last, oh, 70 years that has produced a successful electric car, so I'm not sure what you might be trying to prove with the Volt (especially since it hasn't even hit the market).

You'd make a more convincing argument with the Tesla, but given it is entirely possible they are losing somewhere between $50k and $200k per car (depending whom you believe) their economics don't look so hot, either.




dragster said:


> As for starting off with any vehicle you can use the tuque from the electric motor but this use up a lot of amps.


Nope? It takes POWER to accelerate a vehicle. For the purposes of this (limited) discussion, amps = torque and volts = rpm, but unless you have some of each your not going anywhere.

From actual performance data downloaded from a Soliton1 you can watch the duty cycle (motor voltage) smoothly rise from 0% as the car accelerates from a stop. Motor amps are a constant 1000A the entire time but motor volts climb from 0V to, say, half the pack voltage. When the duty cycle is 5% only 50A are being drawn from the battery; at 10% 100A are being drawn and so on.

Look, I don't know wtf is up with this forum these days with this sudden fervor for AC, but the point I keep trying to make is that one technology is not absolutely better in all aspects than the other, but as of now you can't get anywhere near the same hp/$ with an AC system compared to a DC system. You said, "you get what you pay for" but that's just not always the case.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Crash_AF said:


> Hi Tesseract,
> Can you give me some more details on what kind of setup you would recommend for my application? Again, the vehicle will probably weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of 6k with batteries and the whole family in it.


I don't really do specific recommendations because it might come across as crass or unseemly, but if you have a heavy vehicle you want to keep the transmission for sure. For DC systems a WarP 9" is probably enough but I would give some serious thought to a Kostov 11" (192V) motor (I would avoid their 9", though - we destroyed one by cramming 900A through it for 10 seconds, a test the WarP 9 handles with some complaints, but it handles it all the same). 

For AC systems, I guess maybe the AC55, but even that strikes me as a bit anemic.

You'll definitely want to go with lithium iron phosphate ("LFP") batteries no matter which motor/controller technology. Keep in mind that charging options for higher voltage packs are limited, but you'll want at least 156V/180Ah for a DC system (preferably 192V - anything above that gets you into seriously diminishing returns) and probably 320V nominal for an AC system (but with correspondingly less Ah rating).

No matter what, you are going to be spending a LOT of money on batteries to push 3 tons up and down hills. AC does give you the assurance of regen (= regenerative braking) but the DC system costs so much less you can get a much larger boost in range plowing the money saved over the AC system into more batteries.


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

So, if I'm understanding correctly, my battery needs are going to be huge. To get 156VDC from LiFePO4 batteries, I'm going to need (for example) 44 of the Sky Energy 180AH batteries (156/3.6V=43.3). Or am I doing my math incorrectly?

If I am doing my math correctly, I would need 89 of the same batteries to create a 320VDC pack to feed an AC system correct? 

Is regen possible with a DC system at 156V? Also, would you recommend the WarP 11 at that voltage over the WarP 9?

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Crash_AF said:


> So, if I'm understanding correctly, my battery needs are going to be huge. To get 156VDC from LiFePO4 batteries, I'm going to need (for example) 44 of the Sky Energy 180AH batteries (156/3.6V=43.3). Or am I doing my math incorrectly?


I would assign an average voltage of 3.2V to LFP cells... so 49 for 156V nominal (you charge to at least 3.6V, preferably 3.8V, so the initial voltage will be 186V - make sure your controller can handle that).

And yes, you will need a higher voltage for the AC system, but the cells can have a proportionally lower Ah rating for the same range.




Crash_AF said:


> Is regen possible with a DC system at 156V? Also, would you recommend the WarP 11 at that voltage over the WarP 9?


Regen is possible with the series DC motor, but it is extremely difficult to find a controller that supports it (this has been discussed quite a bit - you can search for regen and my user name or gottdi or major).

A dirty little secret of the WarP series of motors is that there is no difference in power between the different sizes, just a different tradeoff between torque per amp and RPM. So, no, I'd stick with the WarP 9, but for a vehicle of your size I'd seriously consider the Kostov 11 (which is actually more powerful than their 9").


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

Ok, so the voltage rates are about 90% of their max listed voltage specification? I have been reading through the regen threads since I've found the site, but as you know, they can be lengthy... LOL

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## Crash_AF (Sep 18, 2009)

So, how much space needs to be between the Li batteries? Can they be stacked in the pack right next to each other, or do they need some 'breathing room' between them for temperature control? I am looking at this style battery if it makes a difference. 

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP200AHA

Also, going by the above logic, 90% of the maximum voltage listed of 4.25 gives me 3.82 so if I divide 156 by 3.8 I get 42 batteries or if I divide 192 by 3.8 I get 51 batteries. Is this correct, or should I use the 3.2 rating for this particular battery?

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## TheAtomicAss (Feb 19, 2009)

Crash_AF said:


> So, how much space needs to be between the Li batteries? Can they be stacked in the pack right next to each other, or do they need some 'breathing room' between them for temperature control? I am looking at this style battery if it makes a difference.


Lithium batteries actually need to be strapped together to prevent swelling under load. Swelling can cause a good cell to become useless if it swells enough.


----------

