# pipe dream electric nsu prinz



## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

hi, this is my first post on this forum. i was reading the "i want to build" thread and it said to make a thread. 

im dreaming right now of converting my 196# nsu prinz to electric.

IMG_1222_RAW by jeremy!, on Flickr

IMG_1223_RAW by jeremy!, on Flickr

Untitled by jeremy!, on Flickr

Untitled by jeremy!, on Flickr

pojectEscapePod by jeremy!, on Flickr

as it stands the car has no power source or drive train of any kind. i had a motor from my mx-5 that i was going to shovel in the back but space is against me.
since i have already drank the electric car kool-aid i have come to the conclusion that i should make the nsu electric.

-Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication - i say good. ive torn down a mopar rb 413 engine to component parts, dissected the face of my 1964 dodge power wagon

-The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge) - 50? 80? i know my two other ev vehicles get 80-90 mile ranges. but those are from large manufactures so i assume thats not really a good target.

-What level of performance you are hoping to get - fast, i have a now supercharger miata race car... so im a bit skewed here.

-How much money you are willing to put into your project - i have no time frame here, so as much money as i can?

-What parts you've already considered, if any. - i was emailing EV west a month ago, asking if they have any advice for first time conversion projects. they pointed me here. i have not considered any parts other than needing to have a j1772 plug. [home charging station for the fiat 500e and honda fit ev]


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

Just had to pop in here and comment. I've not been active on the forums for a few years since my own conversion project went off the rails. However, just this past weekend I've been dreaming about the 8" DC motor and controller still boxed up in the basement, and surfing local classified ads for donors. Guess what I kept coming back to... An NSU Prinz (http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-classic-cars-1957-nus-prinz-W0QQAdIdZ536239607)

I hope you go for it, and if you do post lots of pictures. There are many experienced people here who'll generously share their time and experience, I am sure.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

2500, wow! i paid... $400? for mine. including delivery!

anyhow im actually pretty excited about this. but i need to finish project killdozer first.

lurking by jeremy!, on Flickr


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

Ya, the price is a total non starter. The lack of papers would also make registering it a real bore in these parts.

Good luck with all the projects.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

The NSU is a cute little car to begin with and would be a total knock-out as an EV.

You have several problems as I see it.

1-Room for your traction pack cells.
2-Rear room for a transaxle and motor.
3-Getting it all registered with the local Gestapo.


The only big area for batteries is in the back seat, although
there should be some in the nose too. Measure the room 
and pack them in as tight as you can. Put as big of a pack 
as will fit for decent range.

A front transaxle placed in the rear would fit nicely. Use one where the motor was transverse. (sideways)
Like maybe a 1982 Ford Escort......









I am in Arizona and we can get stuff registered here that would scare you.
I love it!

Miz


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi jerjozwik. Nice car! I would recommend a single speed motor and axle unit like Azure transaxles or huger performance units from people like metricmind online. But these can be pricey. Look up electric smart car on here, which used DC motor and transaxle like Miz said. I'm sick so can't remember any names for people or companies today, sorry.


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

If you want to go single speed, you might be able to use a double ended motor and chain/belt drive. This was the most compact thing I could dream up, and the original gas motor was essentially from a motorbike anyway.

Your first post indicates some pretty serious performance interests, so a single speed setup might not be ideal.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Single speed is not fast enough? Is not a Tesla roadster single speed, and would be significantly heavier than the nsu will when built! Should be a rocket.


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

Fair enough, I am sure a performance minded single speed setup is possible. But, remember that it will always be a trade off between torque and top speed. Tesla wanted a 2 speed box in the Roadster, but dropped it late in the project because of supplier trouble. They had to beef up the electronics to make the desired acceleration, and still didn't meet the original top speed projections (if I remember correctly). Still, the Prinz is light, so it should be possible to make a very fun car.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Sure, some compromise is present but who in their right mind needs a daily driver capable of more than 100mph? 
No argument multiple ratios can make a faster vehicle but only when done well. 
For the small Prinz space is precious and so is weight saving so my opinion is that the single speed is plenty and benefits greater for making space and weight allowance for batteries to help retain the light nimble dynamics of the little Prinz. 
This could become a fantastic little car when complete and I look forward to following it's development. 
PS look at Luigi's little Fiat 500 build as a great example also.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This thing looks like a very fun project. If I saw one of these for sale, I would be all over it. I often fantasize about a 5 speed tranny and motor mounted vertically or a motor and diff mounted this way. This might be fun in a chassis like the Prinz..


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Jerjozwik. 
I remember, it is Yabert's smart car you should look up for inspiration. It can wheelie with 130bhp roughly so is rather fun haha. Enjoy.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

well... subscriptions are obviously not setup correctly!

re performance, im more interested in acceleration and not top speed. my fiat 500e is caped at 88 but i still love driving the thing around. the fastest i ever had the miata was a gps indicated 120 at auto club speedway.

i cant really respond to all the posts but i should be more on top of this thread with corrected subscriptions.

watch a bunch of jehugarcias esamba videos have gotten me all excited about this again.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I would recommend a belt-drive with a water-cooled Plettenberg Nova 30 motor/controller.
I would use Lithium Polymer batteries in the front end. This battery pack would be very compact and only weigh less than 150Lbs. Buy the smallest pack now because in around 5 years they will shrink by around 50% in weight and volume and you can always change out the old pack.
Lighten the weight where possible. Use polycarbonate windows, aluminum wheels and substitute aluminum where possible. I would remove the floor tunnel and replace the entire floor with aluminum sheet.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

so, my time frame for this project may have just jumped 5 years. yesterday i was researching motors just to get an idea what X motor would feel like attached to this little car.

im sure my math is WAY off, but... seems like it would be a rocketship with a 8.23 single speed transmission.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

so now I feel even more confused. I was looking at the curtis 114v motor, which says it can produce 180lbft. then I looked at the cutris 1239-8050 controler, which says it can produce 108lbft. which is odd to me because as far as I understand the controller modulates the flow to the motor. and the motor is what actually produces the movement...


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

so, im diving deep into power range amphours and all the other fun calculations that are needed for a conversion. 

anyone feel like fact checking this?
IMG_20140806_011708 by jeremy!, on Flickr
^^^click for a full res photo

dont mind the g calculations, those are ideal things without friction and in a vacuum.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

ok, so some things have happened in the long time this thread has been idle...

first, i got rear wheels a long long time ago. so mandatory outside car photo.

IMG_9375_RAW - IMG_9389_RAW by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

a friend was parting out his 1991 miata, so i took the opportunity to snag some parts to swap out the crazy nsu designed parts.

20161030_205604 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

a local fabricator is going to be doing the heavy work, including a full-ish roll cage. had to tow it to him so i was able to take another outside photo.

20161122_082229 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

bought a HPEVs ac-51 and smart car transmission which ended up being larger than i though and returned.

20161122_115819 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

ordered some light weight wheels for the miata bolt pattern. they are so cute.

20161202_071236 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

wheel test look.

20161204_102242 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

reusing my dead NC miatas seats.

20161204_103252 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

motor on vw transaxle.

20170112_101123 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

fabricators layout.

SuspLayoutNSU by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

DriveLayoutNSU by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

originally i was planing on shoveling a crap ton of CALB 180Ah batteries in various places in the car. ev west convinced me that the smartEV battery units would be a better fit. bought 8 of those, and just today realized the voltage will be lower than the 120-170v the HPEVs curtis 1239-8501 114v takes. so what does this mean, i need more battery modules to hit 171v? or can the unit be under powered?


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

What a geat project.

I personally would have gone for more than the 500amp controllers if you are after acceleration but see how you go. It should still be fun to drive with 500. I am just not sure you will get it over 60mph.

Yes you should be able to still run it with lower voltage but again this will impact your top speed.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

so the only negative result of running at a lower voltage is not being able to high the motors highest rpm? i can live with that. i was worried there might be some other effects i dont know of.

as far as the amperage rating, the car is not going to be hitting the local drag strips every night. in fact i just need it to replace my since returned fiat 500e. 

back on the topic of top speed, how do you figure i wont go past 60 without knowing the ratios of the transmission or the outer diameter of the wheels?

this is my first ev build, so i know im going to make mistakes along the way.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

My EV is a shade over 500kg (650kg including the driver). It uses a full 5 speed gearbox. I was using a 500 amp Curtis controller at 170v. The maximum speed I could achieve in that configuration was 85kmph which is well under 60mph at the top of 3rd or bottom of 4th. Since changing my controller I have turned it up to 800amps at 170v and achieved 120kmph (a bit more than 70mph) well into 4th. Sure there are lots of factors involved but I think my experience is a fair comparison.

As a side note the acceleration from 0-60kmph was always very good even with the 500amps. But it used to struggle after that. The more amps I throw at it the better it goes in the giher speeds. So far I have only turned it up to 800amps but I will be taking it to 1000amps in a few months.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

jerjozwik said:


> so the only negative result of running at a lower voltage is not being able to high the motors highest rpm? i can live with that. i was worried there might be some other effects i dont know of.


The other effect is to reduce your peak power to 57 kw (114v x 500A) instead of 75+ Kw.



galderdi said:


> I was using a 500 amp Curtis controller at 170v. The maximum speed I could achieve in that configuration was 85kmph which is well under 60mph at the top of 3rd or bottom of 4th.


The reason for your limited top speed is somewhere else.
You are talking about 85 Kw of power (170v 500A) and a small car like yours should fly with this power.
By example, my Smart (big front area, 900kg) can cruise at over 110 km/h (70 mph) with less than 25 kw.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Yabert said:


> The other effect is to reduce your peak power to 57 kw (114v x 500A) instead of 75+ Kw.
> 
> 
> The reason for your limited top speed is somewhere else.
> ...


Sorry to hijack the thread, but I suspect it is still relevant information for your build.

Sorry I didn't mean to mislead. My old controller would not have ever given anything close to 75KW because it would start with high amps and end with high volts but never both at the same time. However my system at the time did not have any way to track the stats. My new system gives about 70Kw under heavy acceleration to get up to the 120kmph. I suspect it would only take 20kw or so to cruise but I don't get the opertunity to try that. The other factor worth noting is that my 170v is the starting voltage, and I am always accelerating hard. So by the time I get to 100KMPH I am sure there would be some voltage sag. I am probably down to 165v by that stage. If I had some open roads or a circular track it would be interesting to see how it woul perform cruising at 100kmph.

Yabert, I'd be interested to know the typical power you use to get up to those speeds?


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

peak power, acceleration and top speed being limited by the battery are A-OK with me. chances are in a some years i will probably be changing battery tech anyhow. thanks for the feedback, im a bit less freaked out about my oversight now.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Great, but just be aware it would be quite easy for the benefits of a battery upgrade to be limited by the controller. Or to put it another way, to realise the full benefits of a battery upgrade you are probably going to need to upgrade the controller too. When I upgraded my controller, without changing the battery or any other components the results were like chalk and cheese.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

galderdi said:


> Yabert, I'd be interested to know the typical power you use to get up to those speeds?


Well... less than 25 kw if I take many seconds or up to ~120 kw if I need to be at this speed in less than 10s


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Yabert said:


> Well... less than 25 kw if I take many seconds or up to ~120 kw if I need to be at this speed in less than 10s


Excellent, It sounds like mine is in the right ballpark then.
The extra drag created by my extremely bad rear alignment wouldn't have helped.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

gone are the goofy suspension parts!









and now we have a chassis. moti was able to make space for 12 smart ev tesla modules in the new floor. even though i only have 8. this will give me the option of upgrading the setup when my bank account recovers or i find the car does not provide enough range.










front









rear









and the cutting began.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

That is nice work!!! That chassis looks big. It almost looks like it's for a truck. I had to remind myself what the original car looks like. You are making great progress.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

galderdi said:


> That is nice work!!! That chassis looks big. It almost looks like it's for a truck. I had to remind myself what the original car looks like. You are making great progress.


Perhaps you are being misled by what you have for a scale reference. The suspension components from a Miata are quite small; for instance, if you see those front control arms and equate them to similar components from a pickup truck, you'll conclude that the whole chassis is large.

A Miata is small, and yet the front subframe had to be cut down in width to work for the very small Prinz body.


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## jerjozwik (Dec 8, 2013)

more progress.

painters tape for scale. sorry, did not have any bananas on hand.
20170521_095006 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

rear subframe
20170521_095145 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

front sub and tiny steering rack
20170521_100141 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

roll bar mock-up
20170521_100330 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr
18595430_1354944044558604_3944466365138502473_o by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr
20170521_100438 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

battery placement
18588686_1354949171224758_2437775923130499607_o by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr
18589039_1354946887891653_7767376261395857944_o by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr
20170521_095653 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr

visualizing.
20170521_095951 by jeremy jozwik, on Flickr


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

want to subscribe to this thread


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