# Considering 65 Dodge Dart conversion



## PauloftheWest (Jun 11, 2012)

Following the guide:
*Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication: *I'd rate myself a not quite journeyman with auto mechanics. I've rebuild many components, but not everything. For fabrication, well, I'd love to learn! Also, I've worked will plenty of DC circuits including designing, soldering, and programming microcontrollers, but I'm new to the AC world (well, besides the basic understanding).
*The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge): * Work is 25.4 miles away, so I figure 75 mile range. Note that there is very little stopping and I drive 60 mph.
*What level of performance you are hoping to get: * I'd prefer equal to what I currently have, but I will settle for less. http://www.automobile-catalog.com/c...270_4-door_sedan_225_slant_6_torqueflite.html. 
*How much money you are willing to put into your project:* I am posting to figure out what this will cost and then figure out if it is worth it vs my current fuel costs.
*What parts you've already considered, if any:* I have the donor car, it was free =) I have pulled a 4 speed manual transmission with OD and clutch pedal that will fit. I'm looking for a good deal on the hydraulic linkage and then I can install.

Alright, If I do this conversion, I don't plan to have this done or ready to go for years. I am more than willing to wait out and search for some good deals. In other words, time is on my side right now. So, my turn for questions:

1) Are there any parts I shouldn't get used? I'm pretty sure the batteries would be on the list since they have a cycle life. Are there any others that suffer this problem significantly?

2) Is there a definitive guide for AC vs DC motors? If so, please post. From forum and Internet search it _seems_ to be that AC is lighter and basically gives you regenerative breaking. Unfortunately, there is decent energy lost in the DC to AC conversion. DC, on the other hand doesn't have as significant energy loss, but are heavier and are more difficult to achieve regenerative breaking. How far off are those statements?

3) Are there any problems daisy-chaining 2 AC (or DC) motors with the back drive shaft of one directly attached to the front drive shaft of another? The '65 dart has a long hood to accommodate the slant-six, and this is probably possible.

4) Has anyone just put a motor on each wheel? If so, please send a link, I'm interested in the results. It seems like a simpler, but more costly design to me.

5) How accurate is the http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ website? I assumed my car would be more like the "non-aerodynamic small truck". So after adjusting gear ratios/tire size, and then selecting a warp 9 engine, 8 Deka 9A31 batteries, and Curtis 1231C, I got 84 miles @ 60 mph. That would be ~$5398 + fabrication costs.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

PauloftheWest said:


> 5) How accurate is the http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/ website? I assumed my car would be more like the "non-aerodynamic small truck". So after adjusting gear ratios/tire size, and then selecting a warp 9 engine, 8 Deka 9A31 batteries, and Curtis 1231C, I got 84 miles @ 60 mph. That would be ~$5398 + fabrication costs.


not very accurate, it would appear... For reference, here is a truck using those batteries, but he's got 16 of them. And a range of more like 40 miles... He is a well known EV guy, probably pretty accurate range data. You never know on evalbum. 

Anyway, a search on evalbum.com of "9a31" brings up a handful of cars, using around 12-16 batteries, with ranges more like 20-40 miles, not 80. With 8 batteries, it would be more like 10 miles.

Realistically for a 75 mile range, you will need to go with Lithium batteries. A battery pack for that range will cost in the $10k range.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

If you want more than 40 miles of range forget about lead acid and go lithium. I would forget about it anyway simply because of what the weight of a descent sized lead acid pack would do to your cars performance both in handling and acceleration. Not to mention longevity and lifetime costs of having to replace the lead acid when it wears out.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

PauloftheWest said:


> Following the guide:
> *How much money you are willing to put into your project:* I am posting to figure out what this will cost and then figure out if it is worth it vs my current fuel costs.


By all means, do the research and see what your cost estimates total for the project, but displacing the cost of fuel is not enough motivation by itself to justify the conversion, for most people, with current parts availability/costs.

I did a calculation and figured my break even point would be about 220,000 miles over 17 years. Obviously there were a lot of assumptions that may not hold over such a long period of time.

There are other reasons people convert: early adopters want to be leaders in showing this technology is viable, clean transportation, the cool factor of owning an EV, hobbiest love working on conversion projects.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

I've thought a lot about an old Chryser A body; its a good glider candidate- relatively light, simple, sturdy, with easily upgradable front and rear springs. Cool cars, especially the early and Australia-only late wagons.

What you have to ask yourself is whether the car is sound enough to use, and whether you LOVE it enough to put 2-4 years and $20k into it. Seriously, that is the magnitude of the project, at least from a budgetary standpoint.

So, about this car. If the body isn't perfect, with absolutely no corrosion in the subframes, especially around the suspension and torsion spring pickup points, then your free donor car is another 6-12 months and $2k-$5k away from being a suitable glider. I've been around old cars all my life, and I can tell you from sad experience restoring one you don't absolutely love is a misguided effort.

But let's be optimistic and say your undamaged rust-free Dart with a great interior and perfect glass is ready to go. To answer your questions rather directly, IMHO:

1. I personally wouldn't get any of the conversion parts used. Unless you're an EE, or this is your second or more conversion, you're really going to be in the deep end of the pool with no help if you don't get everything working properly quickly.

2. You really need a series DC motor, because they make more torque, and you'll be building a heavy EV. Efficiency all in is about the same, and in any case its irrelevant to your application, where getting it moving is the primary problem. You may even be better off with an 11" motor, which will make more torque, and man do you need it.

2a. The Curtis controller at 500W isn't enough power for your torque requirement. You need more current, like a 1000A Soliton or 1400A Warp controller. These controllers have other advantages, too, but you really need their current delivery to make a 3500lb EV satisfactory, given your desire to have about the same performance as the stock Dart. The 500W Curtis will turn it into a golf cart.

3. You can get tandem motors on a single shaft from Jim Husted, but you'll be better off with a single 11" motor than tandem 9" ones. A single motor is simpler, much cheaper, and btw, you cannot practically run direct drive. You need the torque multiplication of the transmission.

4. Everyone who has done this has failed, including the OEMs with unlimited resources. Its a dead-end concept for the hobbyist EV converter.

4a. You mustn't use lead batteries. Seriously, just forget it. They last 2-3 years, have half the range which declines rapidly, and weigh more than twice as much as LiFePO4 cells that cost three times more, but last at least three times longer. Its a higher up front cost, to be sure, but you can always start with a tiny pack of A123 pouch cells to prove your car out, (with, say, a 10-15 mile range) and save up for the 75mi range pack of bigger cells (or just many more A123 pouches) when you can afford it. There are lots of different battery strategies, I'm just telling you the best one, and the only thing I can recommend.

5. That calculator is wrong. Figure energy consumption at 1 Wh per mile for every ten pounds of EV. Its a figure Jack Rickard arrived at over his fleet of EVs and the subsequent data from the EVTV viewership, and its a very good benchmark number to use. If you can keep your Dart under 3500lbs, which is a reasonable, then you can estimate you'll use 350Wh/mile of energy. To go 75 miles, you'll therefore need 26,250 Wh, plus a 25% cushion so you never use more than 80% of your capacity going 75 miles, so about 33kWh. 57 Calb 180Ah cells, would give you about 33 kWh of energy, nominal 182V to your controller, weigh 700lbs, and would probably fit in the Dart. They would also be $12k+ depending on what best current price you could get.

So, once again (because we so often do this here, not being critical, just how it goes...) we go round and round noodling a project and wind up at $20k plus the glider and the work required to get the desired result. Of course, you can use forklift parts and recycled golf cart batteries and put a science project together for a few grand, or find everything you need somewhat cheaper used, including perhaps the batteries, but really the car you outlined is 2 years of weekends, $20k plus a turnkey glider away from you. Yours would probably be more, because you'll need a fairly large charger for your big battery pack, and likely some infrastructure upgrade in the garage to support it, like a 30A-50A GFCI 220V whip, and an EVSE.

If all that's not a problem, then charge ahead! If not, then you'll need to rethink what you're up for. My best advice is to start with the budget, in dollars and time. Next, ask what vehicle would meet your requirements (two people traveling 75 miles daily, for example,) at that price. Now work backwards from there to what is available. Take a look at the EV Tradin Post. Hitting your performance and budget numbers for real is where starting with somebody else's running, broken or incomplete EV begins to make real sense...

Just my $.02 here.


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## PauloftheWest (Jun 11, 2012)

Well thanks for being honest.

My decision to do this conversion will be a function of cost and how much I wish to spend on the hobby.

To be honest I posted so I could figure out when I would start breaking even and then the hobbyist variable will win out. As I can see, it would be far more beneficial (money wise) to just upgrade the existing engine for fuel economy. Eventually I will have money for this project, but that is the future.

I am still really interested in why used components (besides the batteries) are so bad. I work in an industrial area and lightly used to well used stuff comes up now and then. Obviously batteries will not work for the long run, but am I to expect a lightly used electric motor to only last < 10K miles?

This is why I asked about the tandem idea; it might be very cheap for me to get two smaller used AC motors.

I have done some electrical work and wiring up a 30A-50A GFCI 220V whip to the garage won't be a problem. The garage's circuit break out box already has 100A going to it.

Lastly, I will have to check the points for rust. I know the car has been garaged or covered it's whole life and lived in a dry environment, but that doesn't mean anything if there is serious rust.

Thanks for the honesty.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

No worries, Paul.

Always better to start with your feet on the ground and your head in reality before embarking on any hobby car build, EV or not...

I don't like used EV parts because each one is a whole project and learning curve of its own, and exposes you to dollar and time risks. For example, let's talk motors. Even if you got two AC motors free, you're going to need to join and control them somehow. Beyond the mechanical challenge, if you're not an EE with VFD experience, that's going to be a steep and expensive learning curve, and the likelihood you'll wind up with what you need by scrounging is painfully low.

But we already established you need big (9"-11") series DC motor torque, so let's look at that. EV motors are not forklift motors. If you find a used industrial 10" GE motor for next to nothing, great, but it is very likely to need the commutator resurfaced, bearings while you're in there, new H60 Hellwig brushes, and you'll want to advance them for EV voltage. That all may or may not be within your skill set, and if it isn't, you could easily be $1k of motor shop bills into something that doesn't come with a warranty, spec sheet, customer service, or a couple hundred other guys here or around the EV conversion community who've been where you're going with your exact motor and can lead you through common problems.

Same thing goes for the controller and charger. Obviously, things like used contactors, adapter plates, vacuum pumps, fans, etc. are all fine, even used welding cable and used, tested LiFePO4 cells would be OK by me, but anything with electrical components or programming inside would be too chancey for me to put into a project, particularly for the modest savings to be had buying good EV conversion hardware used over new.

Again, just me. Nothing wrong with used components, but I wouldn't add getting unknown and unsupported examples of the ones whose operation I'm not well versed in working properly on my first conversion project. Its hard enough without adding all those variables.

Ultimately, my best advice to control costs is to choose a lighter car, and skeptically validate your range requirement. A 2300lb EV with a 50 mile range could get by with 25 180Ah cells, a 650A controller and lower spec motor. That could lop the better part of ten grand off your component cost...


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Thinking about it for 15 minutes, a "budget" 2300lb car wouldn't be as good at 80V (with 25 180Ah cells) as it would be with 45 100Ah cells @144V, a Paul & Sabrina controller kit, and a fairly light Kostov 9" motor, but you get the idea.

Lighter is cheaper...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I kind of disagree with most of what Tom just said, in this particular case. It all depends on why you're actually doing this. Is it for the experience, or for environmental concerns? Considering the fact that this thread is about converting a 65 Dodge Dart, it's only logical to assume that it's more about smiles and giggles. You don't see many people browsing the antique classified ads for a 50 year old grocery getter...

I have been working on my EV projects for years now, have never driven a single one of them, and am more enthusiastic about them every day. I am passionate about what I am building, and that drives me forward. The experience is incredibly rewarding. If I had picked a GEO Metro (purposely swinging the pendulum to the other extreme for effect), and all the logical/reasonable/conventional commuter stuff, I guarantee you it would have been sold off for pennies on the dollar by now. You might have to pry a couple of my current projects from my cold dead hands. 

I hope he doesn't mind me using him to make my point, but Woody is a good example of this, and I learned a lot from his experiences. He started out planning to build a custom EV, and progressively stepped back to a more reasonable Toyota MR2 - that ended up being cut up into pieces and sold for scrap! I was advised to follow a _more logical_ path like that, quite a few times in the past 3-1/2 years. His tractor project however (a toy he will admit to having no practical need for) is one of the most fun projects on this site, and he has battled through quite a few hurdles to keep it going, because he is passionate about it.

On the issue of new vs old EV components, it depends on what you're planning to do with them. If it's a more responsible/environmental motivation behind your build, I can see where all/mostly new stuff would make sense. I buy old crap and enjoy the process of figuring out how to transform it into what I need as much as anything in the build. I have also witnessed people here on this board buy brand new, expensive, motors and then pay extra on top of that cost to have them "souped up" to meet their performance needs. Most of those new motors are targeted toward simple, low-stress, commuting and need to be upgraded for higher levels of performance. On the other hand, the quickest EV on the planet, the Rocket bike, has an old forklift motor pushing it down the track; as do many of the fastest/quickest, and many successful "normal" projects on this site.

*I'm not saying Tom is wrong* - just that I personally disagree, and would be miserable following that advice. I would have left this community and hobby almost as quickly as I entered it, following that plan. I also realize that my interests are not the norm, and that most EV enthusiasts would be well-advised to follow his advice. I only chimed in here because we're talkin to a guy who picked a 65 Dart...


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## EVEngineeer (Apr 11, 2012)

It would cost less if you just used DC. Depending upon where you are driving, the regenerative breaking may not work as well as in other areas. If it's flat roads, don't bother, but if it's not then maybe that is an option (you would need AC though). If you are so worried with the initial cost then DC is probably the way to go.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Right there with you, Todd...

I didn't mean to say "lighter" is the same as a crappy throwaway commuter car glider. But lighter IS cheaper, and some of the very lightest cars are ones I would be delighted to drive every day for many years. Five of my favorites:

1. Lotus 7. Consider the practically open-source LoCost. This glider is around 1000lbs. All in it could be under 1500, with a sizable pack. What fun.

2. Lotus Europa. Spectacularly good choice, except that unfortunately I don't fit in it! This glider is perhaps 1100lbs, which again would make a sensational all-weather EV with, well, the kind of handling only a Lotus has.

3. Saab Sonett. I fit in this one. With its freewheel transmission (permitting clutchless gear changes) and suspension/brake components designed for the significantly heavier 95/96 series Saabs, this one is a no-brainer, except most have rusty pans under that pretty fiberglass body.

4. Trabant. People who call these cars garbage really haven't driven one. Simple, sturdy, OK they wander a little and the brakes are hard to set up so they don't pull to one side, but at a stock curb weight of 1350lbs, its darn light. Oddly enough, most electric motors will weigh MORE than the air cooled twin that comes in it, so don't think you'll be stripping 400lbs of ICE gear out of it before you convert. Still, its a legitimate, iconic and durable 4 seat EV, with a freewheel transmission. The wagon is my pick here. 

5. Reliant Kitten. My favorite of all. I'm moving to Australia, so I only have to import a RHD one (or three from England.) Curb weight, including an 850cc water cooled engine is only 1120lbs. The bare glider could be under 900lbs. GVWR 1900lbs. Lotus-derived front suspension. Actually seats 4. Again, I like the wagon, (Estate) but hey, I just love wagons. 

So yeah, Todd is right- by all means don't build a small econobox (or even light sporty) EV that doesn't meet your needs and that you don't absolutely love. Everything else is really a personal preference, from what parts you use to how long it takes to your budget- but not being crazy happy with the car you choose. That's really the only rule you can't break without really regretting it. You must love the car...


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