# 1986 Winnebago LeSharo Conversion



## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

I am preparing to convert my 1986 Winnebago LeSharo into an all electric vehicle. I hope to complete this and take it on an extensive cross country road trip this Winter of 2018. 



I have been building my electronics skills up to this project, tinkering with batteries and go-karts over the last 8 months. I am hoping to ask for some support from all the people on this forum, with your experience and knowledge! I would like to explain my planned approach and am inviting any and all feedback about how I might be able to improve upon this plan. 



I am hoping to find a reasonably priced 2016 or later Nissan Leaf SV for salvage with a smashed up body but working guts. (Suggestions beyond Copart for where to look for this?) The Nissan leaf has a motor rated at 107 hp -- the LeSharo has a 100 hp Renault engine. The Nissan Leaf has a GVWR of 4,431 lbs -- the LeSharo has a GVWR of 5,830 lbs (as close as I can tell, though this may not be exact for my model.) The 2016 Leaf SV has a range of 100 mi. I am hoping to achieve a range of 50-70 miles with a top speed of 50 mph. 



Does this seem like a good fit for this conversion? Does anyone have any potentially better or entirely different suggestions to consider for how to proceed? 



Some questions I am wondering are. . . 

Is there a way I can bypass the 3-speed automatic transmission and hook the electric motor straight up to the drive-train? Or would this be ill-advised? Mainly I would like to remove as many clunky and unreliable parts as possible. . . 



Are there any resources for how to break-down a Nissan Leaf and get all the goodies out of it?


Is it possible to salvage the HUD screen and computer system from the Leaf and use it in the LeSharo? 



Am I going to run into any brake master cylinder issues, or any other systems that might be tied into the petrol motor? 



More thoughts and background, for those who are still interested to read-on  



My inspiration for doing this conversion is many-fold. I feel the desperate need to eliminate the petrol addiction from my own life. I have often wanted to make a small RV my daily driver, as it has an appeal of "always carrying my home on my back," and also, that it would be more fun for my kids and family to have an open free space to enjoy and interact while we drive for groceries, etc. The LeSharo is one of the more efficient RVs out there, with a decent aerodynamic profile, and a fuel economy of 17-18 mpg. I've really enjoyed this LeSharo so far, but I don't trust the aluminum french engine for a long cross country trip. There's only 1 place to order parts, and the thought be being stuck in a podunk town at the mercy of a chevy/ford mechanic while I wait for a part in the mail is not appealing. . . 



I also intend to put solar panels on the roof of this vehicle. It just seems reasonable to me that there should be solar panels on an electric vehicle with such a large roof. I intend to include a simple and lightweight system for being able to tilt the panels when parked to better catch what sun is available. 



I would most love and appreciate any comments, thoughts, suggestions, encouragements, or warnings that you all might have! 



Looking forward to sharing this journey with such an amazing community~


~Sean


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I am hoping to find a reasonably priced 2016 or later Nissan Leaf SV for salvage with a smashed up body but working guts. (Suggestions beyond Copart for where to look for this?) The Nissan leaf has a motor rated at 107 hp -- the LeSharo has a 100 hp Renault engine. The Nissan Leaf has a GVWR of 4,431 lbs -- the LeSharo has a GVWR of 5,830 lbs (as close as I can tell, though this may not be exact for my model.) The 2016 Leaf SV has a range of 100 mi. I am hoping to achieve a range of 50-70 miles with a top speed of 50 mph.


If you're satisfied with the performance of the LeSharo, I expect that the Leaf powertrain would work for you.

The difference in Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) isn't an issue, because GVWR is mostly about structure and suspension, and you wouldn't be using either of those from the Leaf.

A bigger issue would be the Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR), and the total loaded weight of the motorhome plus anything it is towing. This indicates how much load the powertrain can haul around. The Leaf's GCWR may not be much higher than its GVWR, and may be overloaded under the sustained heavy load of moving the motorhome.

Between size and shape the LeSharo probably has enough drag to make more of an energy consumption (and thus range) difference than that... but we're all just taking educated guesses.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I am hoping to find a reasonably priced 2016 or later Nissan Leaf SV for salvage with a smashed up body but working guts.
> ...
> Does this seem like a good fit for this conversion? Does anyone have any potentially better or entirely different suggestions to consider for how to proceed?
> 
> ...


The LeSharo has a first-generation Renault Trafic powertrain, which is front-wheel-drive, with the engine longitudinally oriented and placed ahead of the front axle line. The Nissan Leaf is an electric version of their common compact cars, and follows the pattern of the engine installation, with a transverse motor placement just ahead of the axle line.

I wouldn't even consider using the Renault transmission. An automatic seems like more trouble to deal with than it is worth. It might be possible to swap in a manual Renault transmission, but it's not like there are a lot Renault anything in North America, especially with that longitudinal layout with the engine overhanging the front. Audi used the same format for many years (and some VW versions of the same cars), so there might be a possibility there. You could even use the transaxle of an air-cooled VW, as long as you use a strong version, and one that can flip to the engine/motor ahead of the axle.

Since both the Trafic/LeSharo and the Leaf are front wheel drive, that suggests the possibility of using the complete Leaf drive unit (inverter, motor, and reduction gearbox with final drive) to replace both the Renault engine and the Renault transaxle. Unfortunately, the Renault is longitudinal (a configuration which was popular for early front-wheel-drive cars, especially from Europe), and the Leaf is transverse (like the vast majority of modern front-wheel-drive cars), so the Leaf unit might not fit well in the engine compartment, and certainly some significant construction of mounting brackets would be required. It can be done, and would be easier than the conversion to a transverse Pontiac engine that I ran across.

Whatever gearing bits are used, the Leaf motor will need a reduction ratio of at least 7:1 from motor speed to axle speed to work properly.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Am I going to run into any brake master cylinder issues, or any other systems that might be tied into the petrol motor?


The LeSharo's brake booster will presumably need vacuum, although there was a diesel version which would have had some other boost source. You can add a vacuum pump, but another solution is to replace the entire brake master cylinder and booster with the equivalent from the Leaf, which is electrically powered.

The air conditioner (if you have one) will be run by the engine. If the RV part has a 120 V AC powered air conditioner, it might make more sense to use an inverter to run that rather than to make the Renault air conditioning work on electricity.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I also intend to put solar panels on the roof of this vehicle. It just seems reasonable to me that there should be solar panels on an electric vehicle with such a large roof. I intend to include a simple and lightweight system for being able to tilt the panels when parked to better catch what sun is available.


Solar panels are good for any RV that camps without a powered campsite. Tilting panels does help, if you can position the motorhome to be able to use the tilt (most only tilt side-to-side, not front-to-back).

The solar system will extend how long you can camp without needing to move or to run a generator. It won't collect enough to make a meaningful difference to driving the vehicle.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> If you're satisfied with the performance of the LeSharo, I expect that the Leaf powertrain would work for you.
> 
> The difference in Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) isn't an issue, because GVWR is mostly about structure and suspension, and you wouldn't be using either of those from the Leaf.
> 
> ...



Thank you for all this information Brian! Thank you for clarifying some of this terminology also. . . I was having some trouble finding the GCWR for both the Leaf and the LeSharo. I couldn't even find the curb weight for the LeSharo. I'm noticing that while the GVWR of the Leaf is 4,430 lbs, the curb wight is only 3,340 lbs, which is not terribly encouraging. But I did find this article:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19293
Which leads me to believe that the Leaf should be quite comfortable towing up to 2,500 lbs beyond it's own weight. I'm hoping that after stripping down the LeSharo as much as I can, it wouldn't be too bad for the Leaf drive train. And indeed, I've been happy with the performance of the 100 hp Renault motor on this vehicle. . . though I wouldn't trust it for tremendous longevity. 



You bring up a good point about the drag too. As much as the LeSharo is a reasonable aerodynamic profile for an RV. . . I'm sure it's drag coefficient is still way higher than the Leaf  I am prepared to beef up the battery pack if need be to achieve a 50-70 mi range. I have been strongly considering building large battery packs out of 18650 batteries, Tesla style, but way cheaper to DIY. 



Btw. . . I would love to find a salvaged Tesla in my price range for this project. But I don't think it's going to happen


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> The LeSharo has a first-generation Renault Trafic powertrain, which is front-wheel-drive, with the engine longitudinally oriented and placed ahead of the front axle line. The Nissan Leaf is an electric version of their common compact cars, and follows the pattern of the engine installation, with a transverse motor placement just ahead of the axle line.
> 
> I wouldn't even consider using the Renault transmission. An automatic seems like more trouble to deal with than it is worth. It might be possible to swap in a manual Renault transmission, but it's not like there are a lot Renault anything in North America, especially with that longitudinal layout with the engine overhanging the front. Audi used the same format for many years (and some VW versions of the same cars), so there might be a possibility there. You could even use the transaxle of an air-cooled VW, as long as you use a strong version, and one that can flip to the engine/motor ahead of the axle.
> 
> ...



This transverse vs longitudinal issue is one I had not considered! I'm having trouble finding information on the internet about specs/dimensions on the EM61 motor in the Leaf, which makes it hard to determine if it will fit in it's original orientation. I plan to work with a metal fabricator who has done a lot of engine swaps on this project. I know enough to tinker with some electronics and wiring, but I know I would do a sub-par job for welding/mounting/sprockets etc. . . so I'm going to enlist some strong professional help in this department. I'm hoping he can find a creative way to fit the longitudinal leaf drive train into this engine compartment. 



Lots of good suggestions here for how to proceed with the gear-box, and I also appreciate the tip about the 7:1 ratio for the leaf motor. A lot of these sound viable, but I agree with you using the whole drive-train from the leaf sounds like the most attractive option. I would be slightly more concerned with the constant overweighting of the gear-box than the electric motor. . . but with the trend towards over-engineering these days. . . I think it might be OK?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> The LeSharo's brake booster will presumably need vacuum, although there was a diesel version which would have had some other boost source. You can add a vacuum pump, but another solution is to replace the entire brake master cylinder and booster with the equivalent from the Leaf, which is electrically powered.
> 
> The air conditioner (if you have one) will be run by the engine. If the RV part has a 120 V AC powered air conditioner, it might make more sense to use an inverter to run that rather than to make the Renault air conditioning work on electricity.



Good heads up on the brake booster. I'll have to explore and decide if I want to stick with the LeSharo brake system of switch out to the Leaf. If I use the Leaf system. . . would I have to do this for both front and backs? Seems like it might be more simple to keep the existing brakes and add the vacuum pump. . . ? 



We don't use the AC. Though we will probably get a 120V inverter for charging phones and such~


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Solar panels are good for any RV that camps without a powered campsite. Tilting panels does help, if you can position the motorhome to be able to use the tilt (most only tilt side-to-side, not front-to-back).
> 
> The solar system will extend how long you can camp without needing to move or to run a generator. It won't collect enough to make a meaningful difference to driving the vehicle.



I'm thinking of building some custom mounting brackets that would allow me to tilt the panels in all four directions. (Though I haven't worked out all the details on this yet~) This way we can get the sweet parking spot with the good view out the back dinette, as well as capture decent sun. 



This video was one of the main inspirations for me on this project: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZ1zbqAGA0


He says he's getting about a 50 mile range just off of a full-day charge on the solar panels on his VW bus. I don't expect I would get that on the LeSharo, but I'm hoping that I would be able to get a full charge after 3-7 days of camping. In the video he describes how he's loosing probably 10% of this solar energy to heat build-up in his voltage boosters. . . He's only having to boost up to 144V, and I'd have to boost all the way up to 360V. . . so I will need to research more. 



Do you think it might make sense for me, maybe even be more cost effective, to find a lower voltage motor, and build batteries from scratch? I was mainly leaning towards using the Leaf because it seemed like the most bang-for-buck to get all the EV components in one quick go~ I'm not familiar enough with the salvage market to know what price is reasonable to expect for a Leaf with all functional components and a banged up body~


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

btw,


Anyone who's following this thread. This seems like a great resource for Leaf tear-down:


https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1049_201202


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I'll have to explore and decide if I want to stick with the LeSharo brake system of switch out to the Leaf. If I use the Leaf system. . . would I have to do this for both front and backs? Seems like it might be more simple to keep the existing brakes and add the vacuum pump. . . ?


I think the Leaf parts are only a solution for the master cylinder, not for the disks, calipers, & pads (front) and drums, wheel cylinder, & shoes (rear).

Adding a vacuum pump probably is simpler. I don't know how much noise it would make or how much power it would use.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> ... I was having some trouble finding the GCWR for both the Leaf and the LeSharo. I couldn't even find the curb weight for the LeSharo. I'm noticing that while the GVWR of the Leaf is 4,430 lbs, the curb wight is only 3,340 lbs, which is not terribly encouraging.


GCWR is often hard to find for vehicles which are not expected to tow very much, and especially for those for which towing is not recommended at all.



Meni Menindorf said:


> But I did find this article:
> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19293
> Which leads me to believe that the Leaf should be quite comfortable towing up to 2,500 lbs beyond it's own weight.


It's good that the performance was acceptable, and the stability and structural questions won't matter to the LeSharo, but I would be a little cautious about the long-term reliability under substantial load. Presumably the motor and electronics would be protected by power reduction triggered by excessively high temperature, but the battery doesn't have active thermal management.



Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm hoping that after stripping down the LeSharo as much as I can, it wouldn't be too bad for the Leaf drive train.


All the stuff in an RV costs the manufacturer something to put there, so there usually isn't much of anything extra. Rather than just removing anything, there are sometimes lighter (and more expensive, which is why the RV manufacturer didn't use them) alternatives. Go for lighter weight, but keep your expectations low.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Lots of good suggestions here for how to proceed with the gear-box, and I also appreciate the tip about the 7:1 ratio for the leaf motor. A lot of these sound viable, but I agree with you using the whole drive-train from the leaf sounds like the most attractive option. I would be slightly more concerned with the constant overweighting of the gear-box than the electric motor. . . but with the trend towards over-engineering these days. . . I think it might be OK?


It is reasonable to be concerned about the gearbox being used in a heavier vehicle than what it was designed for. On the other hand, those Leaf gears look substantial.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> This transverse vs longitudinal issue is one I had not considered! I'm having trouble finding information on the internet about specs/dimensions on the EM61 motor in the Leaf, which makes it hard to determine if it will fit in it's original orientation.


You might want to check out CanadaLT28's _VW LT doka with Nissan leaf_, and perhaps to ask him about the Leaf drive unit dimensions... which he is using intact.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> This video was one of the main inspirations for me on this project:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZ1zbqAGA0
> 
> ...


Without really watching the video (although I did later fast-forward through it), if 50 miles requires 15 kWh of energy stored in the battery, that suggests a 2000 watt (peak) solar array, and full sun exposure. That's 20 square metres (or square yards) or so of panels, or at least far more than what fits on a VW van. So, what were his power and energy numbers?



Meni Menindorf said:


> In the video he describes how he's loosing probably 10% of this solar energy to heat build-up in his voltage boosters. . . He's only having to boost up to 144V, and I'd have to boost all the way up to 360V. . . so I will need to research more.
> 
> Do you think it might make sense for me, maybe even be more cost effective, to find a lower voltage motor, and build batteries from scratch?


It seems unlikely to me that there would be a great benefit to a lower system voltage, just due to more efficient voltage conversion, but this is not my area of expertise.

There are certainly lower voltage motors, but you can still use Leaf (or Chev Volt, or whatever) modules for the lower voltage - just use fewer modules in series.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

brian_ said:


> Without really watching the video (although I did later fast-forward through it), if 50 miles requires 15 kWh of energy stored in the battery


https://youtu.be/fGZ1zbqAGA0?t=280

He claims he gets "around 80ah" per battery. It's a bank of 12 lead acid batteries, 144 nominal.

He claims "150-300 watt-hours per mile."

Duncan first pointed this out to me, but, a fantastic rule of thumb is that anyone who uses lead acid batteries, lies about them. So just expect to be lied to whenever anyone talks about their lead acid batteries. It's become a bit of a game for me, read or hear about a build using lead-acids, wait for the lies, wait for the lies, find the lies... oh there they are, right on schedule. People even get a particularly identifiable "*lead acid liar*" look in their eyes when it's their time to lie about lead-acids. It's like they're in court trying to give testimony they know is misleading but maybe technically correct in some circumstances, and are trepidatious about the possibility of getting called on it. 

Yeah, this Volkswagon with a rectangle on it *outperforms electric Miatas on Wh/mile*. Sure bro. 150. Y'know, downhill. This one time.

*Let's check some math*. 

12x 12v = 144v nominal.

"around" 80ah batteries (any 'around' qualifier means he's hedging a lie, that's probably rounded up, and it's probably measuring what he puts into them at 60% efficiency, but whatever we have to start somewhere, let's take that)

80ah * 144v = *11,520 watt-hours absolute max*. MAX. Brand new, 20-hour discharge.

His peukert losses when discharging in under an hour are probably 40%.

11,520 * 60% = *6912 watt-hours*. BRAND NEW.

He gets 50 mile range he claims.

6912 watt-hours / 50 miles = *138.24 watt-hours per mile.*

Sure.

He claims he uses "*150, 250, 300 amps... uhh.. per battery... and that gives me my 50 mile range. A lot of people like to talk watt-hours so that gives me 150-300 watt-hours per mile.*"

Well, 
150wh * 50 miles = 7,500Wh, which is not enough even for his likely best case with new batteries.
300Wh * 50 miles = 15,000 Wh .... which is higher than his batteries are even spec'd for at 20hour discharge, brand new, by 30%.

His actual current draw is more revealing.

150 amps * 144 = 21,600 watts. 
300 amps * 144v = *43,200 watts*. Boom. The actual power requirements of driving.

6910 watt-hours available / 43,200 watts of what it actually takes to move the vehicle at speed = 0.16 hours of battery capacity. 9.5 minutes. 
Suppose he's going 50mph at that draw (with a 100lb motor?). 0.16 hours * 50mph = 8 miles.

*His actual range, on brand new batteries, is 8 miles. 10 if he's going 60mph*.


Ya think this guy's family is just tired of Dad's non-stop bullshit? They're humping down the road at a crawl, panicing every time a vehicle comes up behind them, shuffling forward 20 miles a day, if they're on a hill they can see farther than they can drive in a day, and then every time another camper talks to them Dad's out there bragging "50 miles".

I mean, if you're going to just phrase stuff in the most lenient way possible, why not go all the way? Why not calculate your range at jogging speed and tell people that? It's some kind of half-truth people feel comfortable with quasi-misleading people. They know when they say 'range' what everyone thinks, so they fudge it enough to not be laughed at but no further.



> that suggests a 2000 watt (peak) solar array, and full sun exposure. That's 20 square metres (or square yards) or so of panels, or at least far more than what fits on a VW van. So, what were his power and energy numbers?


He said 8 amps in full sun, 150v. 

8 amps * 150v = 1200 watts.

That's 12 square meters. So, 4m x 3m, or, 6m x 2m? 6m = 19' x 6'? 

The van is 14' long and 5'6" wide.

But whatever, call it 4.5 hours of peak-sun per day average. 1200 watts * 4.5 = *5400 watt-hours per day*.

Let's check that against his plug-in math.

He says he can plug it into any 120v, but usually he tries for 220v, 30amp plug, which charges it up in about 2.5 hours.

220 *30 = 6,600 watts * 2.5 hours = *16,500 watt-hours*.

Roughly accurate for his battery pack size to account for charging losses.

Which also means that he needs 16,500 / 5,400 = *3 days to charge it up*, presuming he's not using it for cooking (which he does), refrigeration (never turns it off), and all the other DC systems.

Here's another gem:

"The message here is, slow down. The message is, if you go 40, 50 miles an hour like this, your range goes up so dramatically. You have everything you need with you so you have no reason to go fast, or get to."

I mean, I get his point, but the purpose of a vehicle is to MOVE, otherwise you just have a crappy building. The whole, stop and appreciate the journey this starts to take a backseat to the panic'd charging-planning routine.

His van can literally only travel, at low speeds, best case, with new batteries, fully charged, to full and complete deep discharge, 15 miles in a day of solar charging. You can see farther than that.

At some point I kinda start thinking, if that's all you can do, then why bother with EV? The little generators that most people with a tent trailer bring can supply enough power to move his van along. He's looking at like, $4/day in gas and it's only running it an hour.


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## boekel (Nov 10, 2010)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> *His actual range, on brand new batteries, is 8 miles. 10 if he's going 60mph*.


Jup, the solar panels are probably 4x 300Wp, and if using them canted, he'll need to turn the van into the sun the whole day...

Nice setup...but he should have used the money from the expensive lead-acid batteries, and bought used lithium batteries for the same money...

Probably next year when the lead's are dead..


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## summetj (Mar 30, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Do you think it might make sense for me, maybe even be more cost effective, to find a lower voltage motor, and build batteries from scratch? I was mainly leaning towards using the Leaf because it seemed like the most bang-for-buck to get all the EV components in one quick go~ I'm not familiar enough with the salvage market to know what price is reasonable to expect for a Leaf with all functional components and a banged up body~



Having taken apart a crashed Nissan Leaf, I think that it's drive train, power electronics, and battery are better than just about anything you can put together yourself, and certainly cheaper on the salvage market than anything you can assemble from purchased components. 


BUT, if you are going to make use of them, you really have to commit to using the whole package. Motor/inverter/charger / battery, computers AND WIRING HARNESS, and transplant the whole thing to your project.


Would it be possible to cut out the entire front drivetrain and just transplant the entire Leaf drivetrain (including wheels/brakes etc) into the LeSharo (what is the distance between the front tires in comparison to the Leaf?)? If that doesn't work, perhaps you could have a custom axle made that would allow the LeSharo front wheels to mate up directly to the Leaf gearbox.


If you go with a different motor, you will have to also buy a controller to match it, and at that point you may be able to use the Leaf Battery (either at a matching voltage, or reconfigured to a lower voltage. If you go 400 volts you may be able to use the Leaf BMS, otherwise, if you reconfigure the modules, you'll also need to provide a bms.) I can't imagine this would be more cost effective than using all parts from a Leaf donor car.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

summetj said:


> Having taken apart a crashed Nissan Leaf, I think that it's drive train, power electronics, and battery are better than just about anything you can put together yourself, and certainly cheaper on the salvage market than anything you can assemble from purchased components.
> 
> 
> BUT, if you are going to make use of them, you really have to commit to using the whole package. Motor/inverter/charger / battery, computers AND WIRING HARNESS, and transplant the whole thing to your project.
> ...



So many good comments here! I wish I knew how to quote more than one person in a post 


Summetj, yes! Exactly~ I have been thinking about this more, realizing it would be easier to take as many Leaf components together as I can since they are already built/designed to work well with each other. It's kind of a crazy idea, but I'm starting to imagine doing a cut-away style Leaf-LeSharo cross-over. Basically cutting the back end off of the Leaf, and fitting it up inside the front-end of the LeSharo. I've been taking measurements and I think it might actually fit pretty well! I can't wait to get the two vehicles side-by-side with a nice measuring tape 



I am thinking I will have to roughly double or triple the capacity of the batteries to have an effective cross country EV (ERV?) I am excited at the challenge/opportunity to build some custom 18650 battery packs which would fit nicely under the LeSharo. 



I understand all your comments about the Solar being pointless. There is something extremely comforting and relaxing about the idea that I could mis-plan my route, miss a charge point or something. . . and all I have to do is sit there for a week and I could travel another 20-30 miles to reach the charge destination. It's like an EV cross-country safety-net. . . maybe not worth all the weight and drag . . . I get it. I'll think about it more and crunch some more numbers. . . I could easily fit 5 (6 if I was pushing it) 300W panels on the LeSharo, bringing it to 1,500W. Am I doing my math wrong, that this would be about 1/5 of a 6.7kw charging station? So say it takes me 12 hours to charge up to full at a station, it might take 60 hours of full sun, or 10 days (in good conditions) to fully charge by solar? It just seems like after a week of camping (not using the panels for any fridge/cooking etc. . . ) that I would be able to go . . . you know. . . _somewhere_???


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> GCWR is often hard to find for vehicles which are not expected to tow very much, and especially for those for which towing is not recommended at all.
> 
> 
> It's good that the performance was acceptable, and the stability and structural questions won't matter to the LeSharo, but I would be a little cautious about the long-term reliability under substantial load. Presumably the motor and electronics would be protected by power reduction triggered by excessively high temperature, but the battery doesn't have active thermal management.
> ...





brian_ said:


> Without really watching the video (although I did later fast-forward through it), if 50 miles requires 15 kWh of energy stored in the battery, that suggests a 2000 watt (peak) solar array, and full sun exposure. That's 20 square metres (or square yards) or so of panels, or at least far more than what fits on a VW van. So, what were his power and energy numbers?
> 
> It seems unlikely to me that there would be a great benefit to a lower system voltage, just due to more efficient voltage conversion, but this is not my area of expertise.
> 
> There are certainly lower voltage motors, but you can still use Leaf (or Chev Volt, or whatever) modules for the lower voltage - just use fewer modules in series.



Brian, your comments are so awesome! Really helpful for a new guy like me~


I'm amazed that the Leaf does not have an active thermal management system. I've been considering fixing some heat-sinks onto the additional battery packs I will add to have the wind under the vehicle help to pull away heat from the batteries. Is it reasonable to assume that if I double or triple-up the battery from the original Leaf, that the strain (and heat) on the original battery would be lessened? 



By "stripping down" the LeSharo, I am referring to the obvious stuff like gas-tank, exhaust system, etc. Though I have been thinking about removing some of the internal stuff we don't use, like the TV antenna and the lieu 


Does anyone have any links to specific specs on the EM57 in the newer Leaf's? Things like acceptable input voltage rage, etc, I'm having trouble finding any detailed specs on this motor. . .


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm amazed that the Leaf does not have an active thermal management system.


The Leaf has optional battery heaters for use in cold climates.



Meni Menindorf said:


> I've been considering fixing some heat-sinks onto the additional battery packs I will add to have the wind under the vehicle help to pull away heat from the batteries.


I doubt this would help very much because each battery module has a lot of thermal mass and I don't see anyway of removing the heat easily.



Meni Menindorf said:


> Is it reasonable to assume that if I double or triple-up the battery from the original Leaf, that the strain (and heat) on the original battery would be lessened?


It's difficult to quantify the impact although I guess if you're drawing half the current then we would expect a reduction in heat build up.

Note that the latest 40kW Leafs overheat much more readily than the 24kW/30kW Leafs. You may want to factor that into your battery choice if you're convinced you have a problem with heat.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The Leaf has optional battery heaters for use in cold climates.
> 
> I doubt this would help very much because each battery module has a lot of thermal mass and I don't see anyway of removing the heat easily.



Hey, thank you for your comment Kevin. I could be way off here, but isn't that exactly what a heat-sink is for? When you have some thermal mass with heat building up inside of it, a heat-sink can be used to remove the heat more quickly from the mass ~ just like in a CPU or GPU, which is where I'm familiar with them. The idea is to get the mass and heat in good contact with the heat-sink so the heat transfers to the sink. Then the sink is designed with a lot of surface area so that air flow is more effective at removing that heat. 

I haven't gotten deep in my battery size calculations yet. . . (exactly how many 18650's can I fit under my LeSharo? ~ more on that later) . . . so I'm not sure exactly how much covering the battery box in heat-sinks would cost. . . but it's looking really expensive on Amazon. Might have to talk to my fabricator about working it into the aluminum battery box. . . But yes, I have doubt's about whether it's worth it!




Kevin Sharpe said:


> It's difficult to quantify the impact although I guess if you're drawing half the current then we would expect a reduction in heat build up.



I'm hoping so ~ and hoping in general that spreading the load across several batteries would reduce the wear and tear on the system from constantly handling a larger load than it was designed for. 

Can anyone with more battery knowledge chime in? If I spread the same motor-draw across two batteries in parallel, each providing the same voltage, would this reduce amp-draw on each of the two batteries individually? Does it cut the amp-draw in half? (or close to it?) Finally, would this also reduce heat build-up? 



Kevin Sharpe said:


> Note that the latest 40kW Leafs overheat much more readily than the 24kW/30kW Leafs. You may want to factor that into your battery choice if you're convinced you have a problem with heat.



That is a very good thing to know! I will keep this in mind when selecting an auction vehicle~


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Can anyone with more battery knowledge chime in? If I spread the same motor-draw across two batteries in parallel, each providing the same voltage, would this reduce amp-draw on each of the two batteries individually? Does it cut the amp-draw in half? (or close to it?) Finally, would this also reduce heat build-up?


Think of batteries like a jug full of water.

Think of power as the rate at which water leaves the spigot on the jug.

If you using 20,000 watts, and you have 2 equally-sized batteries, it will draw 10,000 watts from each. If you only have 1, it will draw 20,000w from the 1.

Think of a single pack, if you physically chop it in half, and then electrically connect it back together... does it make a different to the power drawn? Nope. 

So, two packs will be exactly half the power draw. 

Lithium Ion batteries (and probably all batteries) deteriorate with age and use, so if you use them less aggressively, they'll last a bit longer.

If you use two packs that were each built to be sufficient on their own, you'll also see a very small (fraction of 1%) improvement in efficiency due to 1/4 as much heat loss in wires. But this would be equivalent to just beefing up the wires on a single pack, so, not much to gain there.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Hey, thank you for your comment Kevin. I could be way off here, but isn't that exactly what a heat-sink is for?


If you have a look at the Leaf battery module construction (see here) you'll see that no attempt is made to remove heat from the pouch cells. Therefore unless you're going to repackage the pouch cells with a heatsink I do not believe you will have any significant impact using a heatsink at the module level.

My advice is to run the Leaf modules as designed without cooling or use Volt/Tesla modules that have integrated liquid cooling if you are convinced heating is a problem.



Meni Menindorf said:


> exactly how many 18650's can I fit under my LeSharo?


Don't bother trying to build your own 18650 based pack. Tesla and Volt modules are much cheaper and safer.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> If you have a look at the Leaf battery module construction (see here) you'll see that no attempt is made to remove heat from the pouch cells. Therefore unless you're going to repackage the pouch cells with a heatsink I do not believe you will have any significant impact using a heatsink at the module level.
> 
> My advice is to run the Leaf modules as designed without cooling or use Volt/Tesla modules that have integrated liquid cooling if you are convinced heating is a problem.


I have seen cut-away images of the Leaf drawing heat away from the batteries and pumping it into the passenger compartment for added comfort heating. Is this only on later models? I was not sure if perhaps they had a way to divert that heat outside of the vehicle as well? I totally agree I would not want to modify the existing leaf battery~ Their system is working well enough. Can you confirm/clarify that the Leaf (even newer ones?) don't use any liquid cooling? 





Kevin Sharpe said:


> Don't bother trying to build your own 18650 based pack. Tesla and Volt modules are much cheaper and safer.



I have been wondering about this. It looks to me like a complete Tesla module cost break-down is . . . hard to determine. I'm seeing on eBay, a 90kWh 24V module for $700, and also a 4.5 kWh 24V module for $1250. I did some rough math and I'm guessing that I could spot-weld my own pack for about $1500 in materials that would be equivalent to the Leaf pack. This would be without a BMS. . . which I know sounds crazy, but I have been wishfully (foolishly?) thinking that since this pack would draw half (or a third, if I use 3 packs) of the amps that the Leaf originally drew from it's single pack, and if I was conscious to add some sort of heat-sink, that I would probably be safe from any overheat in my custom pack. Please talk me out of my insane idea.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

My wife and I have a bad (but oh so good) habit of off-roading just a little bit in our RV to get off the beaten path for some good boon-docking. I have been considering raising up the leaf suspension in the back of the LeSharo and adding duelies on the back to accommodate the weight of additional battery packs, and also to support our bad habits 


Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about what would be required to raise the front suspension of the Leaf? Also, I'm thinking it would be prudent to replace the wheels on the Leaf with the front wheels from the LeSharo, for the weight rating on the bearings and also the tires. 



Any thoughts on this?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Think of batteries like a jug full of water.
> 
> Think of power as the rate at which water leaves the spigot on the jug.
> 
> ...



Thank you Matt! This is exactly what I'm looking for~ Any thoughts on the functionality/practicality of adding an air-cooling heat-sink to a custom designed battery pack? Not for the leaf battery, which I would probably leave untouched. . . but for a new custom pack or two that I might build?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Any thoughts on the functionality/practicality of adding an air-cooling heat-sink to a custom designed battery pack? Not for the leaf battery, which I would probably leave untouched. . . but for a new custom pack or two that I might build?


I have no experience with the packs, and experience generally trumps casual consideration, but...

I would not bother with heat-sinks or cooling.

The rate at which you're using a big pack is going to be so slow that it won't be an issue.

For example, if you have 2 hour range at highway speed, that means you're going to generate howevermuch heat it will generate, over 2 hours.

For a Tesla or something, they have performance use where they may (or may be able to) drain the battery pack in 15 minutes or something. Well now you have 8 times the heat dissipation requirements.

As long as you're looking at 1-2 hours, I can't imagine the packs would accumulate anything significant for heat. Don't sprayfoam them into a casket, but, ambient air cooling (especially while driving) is probably fine.

But again I have no practical experience, go by what someone says the cooling requirements are who've used the packs or who are more familiar with the specs and why the specs are the way they are.

...

Also, don't build your own 18650 pack.

I say that as someone building their own 18650 pack, who's been happy with the process.

Mine's on a motorbike, if it wasn't, I would just be buying a pack, it's cheaper, pre-engineered, and a bajillion times easier.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I have seen cut-away images of the Leaf drawing heat away from the batteries and pumping it into the passenger compartment for added comfort heating. Is this only on later models?


None of the current models (24kWh, 30kWh, 40kWh) have any active cooling and the battery is mounted in the belly of the car with little (if any) passive cooling. The next generation Leaf (60kWh iirc) will have active cooling and I suspect that's the cut-away that you've seen.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Please talk me out of my insane idea.


despite spending billions this still happens to Tesla's 18650 batteries 

Tesla Model S fire vs 35 firefighters – watch impressive operation after a high-speed crash


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Hey AwesomeMatt,

I appreciate the comments about cooling the battery packs. I think you're spot-on! 

Doing some deeper math and giving it more consideration, I now see what everyone is saying about getting prefabbed EV modules. 

Kevin, do you have any experience or preference working with the Tesla modules, or Volt, or something else? Are the 5.3 kWh, 24v Tesla packs the best way to go? 

I'm a little confused about working with these 24v Tesla modules. . . I would need 15 or 16 of them in series to get to the 380 volts that the Leaf operates at. . . crazy expensive! And then the Ah of the pack would be way bigger than the Leaf. . . seems like maybe not the best fit? 

Would it be better to just go with the Leaf modules? 7.6V, 64Ah * 50 would get me pretty close at 380V and 24kWh. Pricing on this looks like about $5k~

I'm amazed that just the price of an equivalent 30kWh battery module is about the same price as an entire used Leaf!


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

There is something I'm wondering about as I am thinking of doubling up the batteries from two different leafs. What would happen if I paired a 24kWh Leaf battery in parallel with with a 30kWh Leaf battery? Would they end up draining differently? Wearing differently? Charging differently? Is this a terrible idea? Or could it possibly work out alright? 

There are a limited number of options when looking at salvage auctions so I am wondering if it might be alright to run two similar, but not identical, batteries in parallel~

Would appreciate any thoughts or feedback! 

One more question. . . if I reduced the 1:7 gear ratio standard on the Leaf even further, thus lowering the top-speed, might this potentially be a better fit for a heavier vehicle like this? I've read that the Leaf has a top speed of 93 mph. I'm even considering putting two Leaf gear-boxes in series, thus rendering the top speed of the vehicle to 45 mph. . . but would this also help to relieve some strain from each gear-box, and possibly also reduce the torque required by the motor? Or reduce the wear and tear on the motor? We're not trying to get anywhere fast


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Meni Menindorf said:


> There is something I'm wondering about as I am thinking of doubling up the batteries from two different leafs. What would happen if I paired a 24kWh Leaf battery in parallel with with a 30kWh Leaf battery? Would they end up draining differently? Wearing differently? Charging differently? Is this a terrible idea? Or could it possibly work out alright?
> 
> There are a limited number of options when looking at salvage auctions so I am wondering if it might be alright to run two similar, but not identical, batteries in parallel~
> 
> ...



Unmatched battery packs would be a discharge and recharge nightmare to get to function properly and safely. 

You need to do more homework on power transmission and gear ratios. Combining gear ratios in series multiplies the overall ratio. It does not add them. Two Leaf gear boxes in series would give 1:7 X 1:7= 1:49 not, 1:14. Think of 7 input rotations giving 1 output rotation from the first box. 7 of those rotations givies one rotation from the second box. 7 X 7=49.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Kevin, do you have any experience or preference working with the Tesla modules, or Volt, or something else?


I'm using Tesla models in my build (here). Damien (here) and Chris (here) are using Volt batteries.



Meni Menindorf said:


> Are the 5.3 kWh, 24v Tesla packs the best way to go?


Depends on your budget and range requirements.



Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm a little confused about working with these 24v Tesla modules. . . I would need 15 or 16 of them in series to get to the 380 volts that the Leaf operates at. . . crazy expensive! And then the Ah of the pack would be way bigger than the Leaf. . . seems like maybe not the best fit?


Tesla modules can be reworked for ~50V (see module vendors here) and therefore only 8 would be required.



Meni Menindorf said:


> Would it be better to just go with the Leaf modules? 7.6V, 64Ah * 50 would get me pretty close at 380V and 24kWh. Pricing on this looks like about $5k~


The Leaf modules are a good solution if you can live with the lack of cooling (which works fine in the Leaf). The best way to buy them is in a wrecked Leaf which will also have all the other parts you need


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

electro wrks said:


> Unmatched battery packs would be a discharge and recharge nightmare to get to function properly and safely.
> 
> You need to do more homework on power transmission and gear ratios. Combining gear ratios in series multiplies the overall ratio. It does not add them. Two Leaf gear boxes in series would give 1:7 X 1:7= 1:49 not, 1:14. Think of 7 input rotations giving 1 output rotation from the first box. 7 of those rotations givies one rotation from the second box. 7 X 7=49.



You are right! I should do at least a tiny-bit of homework before I start saying my crazy ideas out loud . I can't help it. . . visionary mentallity. 10,000 new ideas/day ~ most of them highly impractical.  I haven't worked with gears much before so I am not that familiar with them. But I now understand the concept you are describing~ if I wanted to go from a 1:7 ratio to a 1:14, I would only need to add a 1:2 ratio gear. So . . . is the rest of my theory sound? If I have a heavier vehicle, and I don't mind if the top speed is slower, would it make less strain on the motor to gear it down a little further? For all practicality and simplicity, I will probably just leave well enough alone with the standard Leaf gear-box. . . but I was just curious if I am thinking about gear-theory correctly~


Also, thank you for clarifying about mis-matched batteries! I assumed as much, but was having wishful thinking. . . I will make sure to get a second Leaf who's battery matches my first. ie: if I get a 24kWh pack, I will make sure the second pack is also 24kWh.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> The Leaf modules are a good solution if you can live with the lack of cooling (which works fine in the Leaf). The best way to buy them is in a wrecked Leaf which will also have all the other parts you need


I have come to the same conclusion. Salvaging the battery pack from a wrecked Leaf is going to be the cheapest route~ Now I just need to find two of them with the same type of battery! 

On a related note. . . I am strongly looking at a particular salvage Leaf with a smashed up trunk. I had an inspector go look at it for me and he said it looked like a light accident that only had body damage in the rear; however, he also said it won't go into gear. He postulated this was because the Leaf has an open-trunk sensor which would prevent it from shifting into gear. Anyone know about this. . . ? 

Also, are there other safety systems that I will have to somehow disable in order to make the Leaf run normally after I chop-off the back half of the vehicle? Will this be workable, or substantially complicated?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Anyone know about this. . . ?


Lots of system faults will prevent the Leaf from moving... unfortunately I can't remember the details because it's a couple of years since I worked on that platform.

Can you post a picture of the Leaf instrument display on the vehicle you intend to purchase?



Meni Menindorf said:


> Also, are there other safety systems that I will have to somehow disable in order to make the Leaf run normally after I chop-off the back half of the vehicle? Will this be workable, or substantially complicated?


Many of your questions will have been answered in the Leaf thread (here). You'll find the thread includes a list of Leaf parts that are required


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm a little confused about working with these 24v Tesla modules. . .


They're not really 24 volt. People seem to want battery systems to run at some multiple of 12 volts, but it doesn't work that way. Tesla Model S/X modules have 6 cell groups in series... which is 22.5 volts for the module at 3.75 V/cell (nominal).



Meni Menindorf said:


> I would need 15 or 16 of them in series to get to the 380 volts that the Leaf operates at. . . crazy expensive!


Lower-capacity Tesla Model S/X batteries had 14 modules in series; larger (100 kWh and I think 85 kWh) batteries have 16 modules in series. Yes, since (like all modern EVs) all modules are connected to each other in series, large battery capacity means that you can't use the stock modules to build a low-capacity high-voltage battery. As Kevin mentioned, some companies do modify the Model S/X modules to 12s, cutting the number of modules for a given voltage in half.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> . . . if I reduced the 1:7 gear ratio standard on the Leaf even further, thus lowering the top-speed, might this potentially be a better fit for a heavier vehicle like this?


Yes. 



Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm even considering putting two Leaf gear-boxes in series, thus rendering the top speed of the vehicle to 45 mph. . . but would this also help to relieve some strain from each gear-box, and possibly also reduce the torque required by the motor? Or reduce the wear and tear on the motor? We're not trying to get anywhere fast


Aside from the gearing math (which you have since figured out), it doesn't relieve the strain on the final gearing. Think of the gears in a train like links in a chain - each of them transmits the same power (everything coming out of the motor), although they are running at different speeds and therefore different torques (or loads on each tooth). If the additional reduction is after the stock Leaf gearing then the Leaf gearing would transmitting lower load at higher speed, which would be easier on the gearing.

A challenge is that there isn't any easy way to insert another stage of gearing between the existing gears and the differential. That leaves adding a gearbox on each output from the differential, either at each side of the transaxle (which would be a lot of work), or as geared hubs.



Meni Menindorf said:


> ... I now understand the concept you are describing~ if I wanted to go from a 1:7 ratio to a 1:14, I would only need to add a 1:2 ratio gear. So . . . is the rest of my theory sound? If I have a heavier vehicle, and I don't mind if the top speed is slower, would it make less strain on the motor to gear it down a little further?


It would shift the motor speed and load conditions. The motor is most efficient at mid-range speed and relatively heavy load. If the change in gearing moves it from lower speeds up to a better point, and avoids maximum load (and thus maximum current for the speed), it should improve efficiency and reduce motor temperature.

It will also multiply the available torque at the wheels, by whatever reduction gearing ratio you add.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> They're not really 24 volt. People seem to want battery systems to run at some multiple of 12 volts, but it doesn't work that way. Tesla Model S/X modules have 6 cell groups in series... which is 22.5 volts for the module at 3.75 V/cell (nominal).



Yes! This makes much more sense. I think a lot of people are using these Tesla packs for DIY Power Walls and off-grid applications ~ so they are probably used to working with lead-acid.




brian_ said:


> Lower-capacity Tesla Model S/X batteries had 14 modules in series; larger (100 kWh and I think 85 kWh) batteries have 16 modules in series. Yes, since (like all modern EVs) all modules are connected to each other in series, large battery capacity means that you can't use the stock modules to build a low-capacity high-voltage battery. As Kevin mentioned, some companies do modify the Model S/X modules to 12s, cutting the number of modules for a given voltage in half.



This brings up another point I've been wondering about. The Leaf Motor (EM61) operates at 380V. What happens if I power this motor with a lower voltage battery? Say I used 12s Tesla packs and ended up with about 270 Volts? What if I got really crazy and went to 150V? 



The Motor would have less power?
The Motor would get hotter?
The stock wiring would not be capable of handling the current?


I've been realizing that while 100hp petrol engine in the LeSharo is probably "under-powered," I barely ever use the full power of this engine. I would say 80% of the time I'm only using 30% of the available power. The only time I might use close to full-power is when climbing a steep hill. 



This makes me wonder more crazy things. What if I used a lower power EV motor, (or wired the EM61 at a lower voltage?) and included a voltage ramper to give shorter bursts of higher power. I know there are a lot of circuits/products available out there to change voltage up or down pretty easily. I know these components get hot. Would it be possible to use one of these to provide a temporary "boost" by ramping up battery voltage for a short time?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Budgeting time! 

I was originally hoping that I could complete this cut-away project for under $12,000. . . I'm now seeing that this is wishful thinking! Let me break my estimates down. . . 

Main Salvage Leaf - $9,000
Secondary Leaf for just the battery pack - $5,000 (after selling off other components on eBay)
Fabrication and mounting work: $4,000

I'm not even listing an "extraneous" column and I'm already at $18k. . . way over budget. 

This is the most cost-effective route I can think of to achieve this LeSharo EV conversion. . . I have been brain storming everything I can think of, including building from scratch components with god-forsaken lead-acid batteries, and this Leaf-Sharo still seems to be the best route for both functionality and cost. Therefore, I am thinking I may have to slow this project down. . . probably not complete it by this Winter , and just watch and learn the Salvage market better and keep an eye out for smokin' Leaf deals. . . 

Any other thoughts about this? 

I've been using Copart salvage auctions. I was appalled when I realized how much their members fees are! After fees and taxes a bid that ends at $7,500 ends up costing $9,500 to pick-up from the lot. And that's if it doesn't need to be shipped! 

Anyone have any recommendations for better (or just more?) places to find salvaged Leafs? 

Can anyone give me hope!?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Can anyone give me hope!?


I'm no Obi-Wan, but, I'll give it a try.



> I was originally hoping that I could complete this cut-away project for under $12,000.


You can generally get forklift DC motors for free/scrap which would be, oh, $250 or so.

You could use two of those in series. $500.

Boom, motor's done.

Spend $10,000 on batteries, save $1500 for controller and other necessary bits.

There are Volt packs available for $1000 for the whole car's worth. Not sure where you are, but, that's how I'd go. I wouldn't rip the car apart myself unless I thought it was interesting or fun or I was extremely thrifty.



> I have been brain storming everything I can think of, including building from scratch components with god-forsaken lead-acid batteries


There is no equilibrium where lead-acids make sense. They are universally worse and more expensive. It's not a shortcut, it's not a "Well I'm cheap and I'll accept lower performance", even if you want to cut corners and accept lower performance, just go with fewer lithiums, it's still better. It's better in every way.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> You could use two of those in series. $500.



Ok, I'm gonna have to play with this! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqN9qADajM


Any resources/suggestions where I can learn more about running two DC motors in series? 





MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> There are Volt packs available for $1000 for the whole car's worth. Not sure where you are, but, that's how I'd go. I wouldn't rip the car apart myself unless I thought it was interesting or fun or I was extremely thrifty.


I'm located in MN. Not a ton of EV popularity up here. People seem to think they wouldn't work well in the cold, but the few local owners I've talked to say they work just fine~


Where are you finding a whole 380V 24kWh pack for $1000??? Pricing it out on eBay, I usually see a single cell (7.6V, 64AH) for about $100, which comes out to your $10k for 2 complete Leaf batteries for my project. But are you really finding them for $1k each, for a whole pack?? That price would definitely make my project a go  




MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> There is no equilibrium where lead-acids make sense. They are universally worse and more expensive. It's not a shortcut, it's not a "Well I'm cheap and I'll accept lower performance", even if you want to cut corners and accept lower performance, just go with fewer lithiums, it's still better. It's better in every way.



Sage advice. Worthy of Obi-Wan.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Where are you finding a whole 380V 24kWh pack for $1000???


The Chevy Volt pack is 16-18kWh depending on model year. A quick look on ebay has one for $2340 in VA (here) but has been on sale since early March and is overpriced.

The cheapest way to obtain the parts is buying a wrecked EV. With patience you should be able to buy a decent Leaf for well under $5K and a Volt a lot cheaper than that.

If you don't want to buy a wreck then you just need to invest time searching online adds... Damien purchased a Volt pack for ~$700 and that's in Ireland where very few Volts were sold.


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Any resources/suggestions where I can learn more about running two DC motors in series?


Have a look at Damiens 1,000 Euro EV Build thread (here). It's not dual motor but will give you a feel for the simplicity of DC.

I would also suggest you watch his new series that starts in a couple of weeks time. He will document a 7 day EV conversion using a very low cost AC motor with direct drive


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Any resources/suggestions where I can learn more about running two DC motors in series?


Err, I don't know why I said series.

What I meant was, head-to-tail. So they're both turning the same shaft.

I'm just worried about power requirements as you climb hills. For acceleration you'd be fine with one big motor, but, climbing hills with that extra weight might be more than a single motor can handle.

You can also do them side-by-side with a chain link, but, ick.

Electrically you'd probably hook them up in parallel, kinda just, run them blind to each other.



> Where are you finding a whole 380V 24kWh pack for $1000???


http://www.car-parts.com

Find a junker near you that's selling them off. Bit annoying as you have to pick make/model/year but $700-2000 seem to be the going price. That's for someone else doing the disassembly for you.

For a DC series motor, 380v is way overspec unless you're Duncan . The motors are spec'd for 48v usually, so you can give them 3-4x that but, I'm not sure how happy the insulation is above that. There's the world's biggest thread about repurposing forklift motors here.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Where are you finding a whole 380V 24kWh pack for $1000??? Pricing it out on eBay, I usually see a single cell (7.6V, 64AH) for about $100, which comes out to your $10k for 2 complete Leaf batteries for my project.


That's a module, containing a 2s2p combination of four cells (each cell 32 Ah @ 3.8 V), not just a single cell. There are 48 modules in a Leaf pack, so yes, two packs or 96 modules would be about $10K at $100 per module.

If the individual module price is high this may reflect the labour of disassembly and/or selection of only good modules.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> Err, I don't know why I said series.
> 
> What I meant was, head-to-tail. So they're both turning the same shaft.


That's in series, mechanically.  If you want an electrical analogy, the torque of the motors add (like voltages of cells in series) and the rotational speed is the same (like the current through cells in series).

The electrical power supply to the motors would presumably be in parallel.

You could describe the mechanical configuration as "in tandem" if you want.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> This brings up another point I've been wondering about. The Leaf Motor (EM61) operates at 380V. What happens if I power this motor with a lower voltage battery? Say I used 12s Tesla packs and ended up with about 270 Volts? What if I got really crazy and went to 150V?
> 
> The Motor would have less power?
> The Motor would get hotter?
> The stock wiring would not be capable of handling the current?


The available battery voltage limits the voltage which can be supplied to the motor. At low speed the motor is current-limited, so up to some point the lower battery voltage is not a limitation. As speed rises more voltage is needed to push the current, and most production EV motors are limited to a constant power (so as voltage rises with speed, current drops in inverse proportion to the voltage), until the limit of available voltage is reached. Reducing the available voltage should just cut off the top speed end of the operating curve.

So yes, the peak power available would be less, but when operating within the available voltage and power and stock gearing there should be no change in efficiency (or heat generation, or current). You can't trade off between current and voltage by just using a lower-voltage battery.

If you change gearing to operate at a different motor speed for a given road speed, you shift to a different point in the operating curve, which may be more or less efficient. Certainly if you use taller (less reduction) gearing so the motor runs more slowly it will need to be producing more torque (for a given road speed and power output), and so will be using more current (at a lower voltage). That only means hotter if it doesn't cool as well at lower rotational speed or is less efficient at the new operating point.



Meni Menindorf said:


> This makes me wonder more crazy things. What if I used a lower power EV motor, (or wired the EM61 at a lower voltage?) and included a voltage ramper to give shorter bursts of higher power. I know there are a lot of circuits/products available out there to change voltage up or down pretty easily. I know these components get hot. Would it be possible to use one of these to provide a temporary "boost" by ramping up battery voltage for a short time?


While not a common technique, Toyota has used a voltage doubler incorporated into the inverter of some of their hybrids to run the motor at up to twice the battery voltage.


----------



## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

Jack at EVTV has a couple of dual motor setups on his website (here)


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> Jack at EVTV has a couple of dual motor setups on his website (here)


That is a wild picture! I have often wondered about this. . . running two motors in a mechanical series. . . I am not certain I understand exactly what is going on in this photo, but I am wanting to understand more! 

Feeling so much support from this forum! So many good comments ~ I'm deeply appreciating the help spreading this knowledge~

As I have mentioned, we have a habit of off-roading with our RV, and I have oft-wondered about turning it into a 4WD. This video was inspiring to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZHCrXu3vus

He's proposing that wiring DC motors in electrical series might be an effective solution for a sort-of built-in traction control in a 4WD application. He states P = V * R^2. If one wheel suddenly lost traction, it's resistance would drop dramatically, and then the other wheels would take-up all that extra ampereage/power. Any thoughts on if this principle might work? 

I got all excited imagining a set-up with 4 small DC motors, one on each wheel . . . . then I realized it would be a steering and suspension nightmare .

Might it be remotely sane to consider having two forklift motors as you have mentioned, one in place of the old petrol motor, driving the front wheels, and the second driving the back axle. Imagining differential issues in the rear wheels might prevent this from being practical for most road driving? Maybe one motor in the front and two in the back, one for each wheel? 

I will look more deeply into running the motors in mechanical series. 

I'm watching the salvage auctions. Made a few bids today, but didn't win. 2011 International eStar, and also a 2017 Bolt. (Anyone have word about these 60kWh Chevy batteries being decent or not?) 

I'm sure this is a common question but. . . is it easy enough to implement regenerative breaking with a forklift motor? I really like the idea of having the car handle like the Tesla's do . . . where as soon as you let off the accelerator, it starts heavily regen-breaking. Does it just depend on how I configure my speed controller, as Mr. Damien Maguire would have me build from near scratch?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Drive configurations*



Meni Menindorf said:


> I got all excited imagining a set-up with 4 small DC motors, one on each wheel . . . . then I realized it would be a steering and suspension nightmare .


Agreed - for road vehicles, hub-mounted motors are undesirable.



Meni Menindorf said:


> Might it be remotely sane to consider having two forklift motors as you have mentioned, one in place of the old petrol motor, driving the front wheels, and the second driving the back axle. Imagining differential issues in the rear wheels might prevent this from being practical for most road driving? Maybe one motor in the front and two in the back, one for each wheel?


A differential - or separate motors per wheel - is required for any axle unless it is always on a loose surface, so front and rear are the same in this respect. At the front the LeSharo's Renault chassis comes with a transaxle containing a differential; you would need to provide a differential at the rear if using a single motor for the rear axle.

The LeSharo was designed for a front-wheel-drive chassis. Is the room to change out the rear suspension and fit in a motor (or motors) and a driven axle?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

*Regenerative braking*



Meni Menindorf said:


> I'm sure this is a common question but. . . is it easy enough to implement regenerative breaking with a forklift motor?
> ...
> Does it just depend on how I configure my speed controller, as Mr. Damien Maguire would have me build from near scratch?


No. "Forklift" motors have the field winding in series with the rotor winding, so the current is the same through both windings. For rational regenerative braking in a brushed DC motor you want separate control of the field current (or "excitation"), so a shunt-wound (or separately excited, a.k.a. "SepEx") motor configuration would be more suitable. Of course SepEx controllers are twice as complex (with separate rotor and field winding control), and uncommon.



Meni Menindorf said:


> I really like the idea of having the car handle like the Tesla's do . . . where as soon as you let off the accelerator, it starts heavily regen-breaking.


Why do people think that Tesla is the only builder of electric cars? Every production EV does regenerative braking when the brake pedal is pushed; likely all of them (including Tesla, but also Nissan, GM, etc) do some regenerative braking when the accelerator pedal is fully released. Tesla does less of this than others, perhaps because the base versions of their cars are rear-wheel-drive, and strong rear-only braking is unstable.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> As I have mentioned, we have a habit of off-roading with our RV, and I have oft-wondered about turning it into a 4WD. This video was inspiring to me:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZHCrXu3vus
> 
> He's proposing that wiring DC motors in electrical series might be an effective solution for a sort-of built-in traction control in a 4WD application. He states P = V * R^2. If one wheel suddenly lost traction, it's resistance would drop dramatically, and then the other wheels would take-up all that extra ampereage/power. Any thoughts on if this principle might work?


I didn't listen to the audio to go with the fuzzy video, but I'm pretty certain that you should just ignore this guy.

No, power is not the product of voltage and resistance squared. It is the product of voltage squared divided by resistance (because P=VI and I=V/R, so P=V^2/R)... and even then, only for a resistor. A motor is mostly an inductor, not a resistor.

It is not obvious to me that a DC motor under less mechanical load would have lower electrical resistance. Thinking of this another way: torque depends on current, so with series wiring forcing both motors to flow the same current (one can't "take up extra amperage" from the other), they will produce the same torque; if one is freely spinning wouldn't it speed up, taking more of the voltage and taking over the available power?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> No. "Forklift" motors have the field winding in series with the rotor winding, so the current is the same through both windings. For rational regenerative braking in a brushed DC motor you want separate control of the field current (or "excitation"), so a shunt-wound (or separately excited, a.k.a. "SepEx") motor configuration would be more suitable. Of course SepEx controllers are twice as complex (with separate rotor and field winding control), and uncommon.


This all sounds incredibly complicated to me. . . Probably not wanting to look for an uncommon and complex situation. I am feeling a bit torn about the direction to proceed with this project. . . I really like the idea of the ultra-cheap DC motor approach, keep-it-simple style. But I am also totally in love with regen breaking ~ it just warms my heart every time it's happening! I don't completely mind the space-ship whir of a brushed motor. . . but I'd really greatly prefer a nearly-silent AC motor ~ such peacefulness! I am so completely turned off by all the CAN and ID codes and sensor malfunctions, etc of using a complete commercial system. Watching that video about the "bare-bones" leaf drive-train on the table made me want to just about throw-up. . . All these components that have to match just right, and if something goes wrong, I'm beholden to Nissan to somehow bail me out? I'm largely doing this because I want a car that will run reliably for years to come, and that I understand (more or less) how it works and how to fix it. 



Are there any decent stand-alone AC motor/controller options? Looking at the AC-51 for about $2k seems potentially doable. . . but then it looks like a controller for it is another $2.5k, and it's starting to kill my budget again. . . I know AC motors are more expensive. But is there anything out there that might work for my project? I've been doing some power requirement calculations and it seems like a 60kW motor might be acceptable for my project? (~5k lbs, desired top-speed ~50mph on flat). 



brian_ said:


> Tesla does less of this than others, perhaps because the base versions of their cars are rear-wheel-drive, and strong rear-only braking is unstable.


That is an interesting point! I did not think about the rear-wheel regen in Tesla's~ I'm not a Tesla enthusiast, but I did drive one once, and I really liked the way the throttle responded by a dramatic regenerative slow-down simply upon releasing the throttle.




brian_ said:


> I didn't listen to the audio to go with the fuzzy video, but I'm pretty certain that you should just ignore this guy.
> 
> No, power is not the product of voltage and resistance squared. It is the product of voltage squared divided by resistance (because P=VI and I=V/R, so P=V^2/R)... and even then, only for a resistor. A motor is mostly an inductor, not a resistor.
> 
> It is not obvious to me that a DC motor under less mechanical load would have lower electrical resistance. Thinking of this another way: torque depends on current, so with series wiring forcing both motors to flow the same current (one can't "take up extra amperage" from the other), they will produce the same torque; if one is freely spinning wouldn't it speed up, taking more of the voltage and taking over the available power?



Thank you for your clarifications brian. I should probably stop listening to fuzzy videos with un-confident sounding people  I think your explanation of the run-away wheel drawing more voltage makes much more sense. 




brian_ said:


> Agreed - for road vehicles, hub-mounted motors are undesirable.
> 
> 
> A differential - or separate motors per wheel - is required for any axle unless it is always on a loose surface, so front and rear are the same in this respect. At the front the LeSharo's Renault chassis comes with a transaxle containing a differential; you would need to provide a differential at the rear if using a single motor for the rear axle.
> ...



I don't think I would be confident adding an additional differential in the back. . . I might just have to be polite and stick with the FWD 


Watched several videos about running two DC motors in mechanical series, and that does seem quite approachable. I'm assuming these motors would have to be more-or-less identical? (at least make/model being the same?) This is making me think I will have to look towards eBay to find this rather than look for a local salvage forklift. Do all/most of these series wound DC motors have the shaft accessible on both ends to facilitate this configuration? 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie7qvo-aC5k


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I am also totally in love with regen breaking ~ it just warms my heart every time it's happening!


If budget is any constraint... it should be the first thing on the chopping block.

How much extra would you pay for 5% improvement?

You can get the brake-saving part of regen really cheaply and easily, just not the energy recovery part.



> I'm assuming these motors would have to be more-or-less identical? (at least make/model being the same?)


I can think of ways it would matter and ways that it wouldn't. I'm not sure what would dominate.

DC series motors have no defined speed. Without a load they accelerate off into orbit. With a load, they bog down and slow down. To me that seems helpful to your situation.

Suppose you have two motors, each trying to accelerate infinitely. And suppose some mismatch means one ends up trying to do all the work. Will it? It will hit a max speed, the other will continue trying to reach infinite speed, but they're on the same shaft. So, the smaller one will end up being loaded until such a point that the bigger one starts to pick up the slack again. They should roughly share the load according to their capabilities.

Even if only one hogs all the power until it needs it, and the second one functionally coasts... when you need it the big one will bog down and the small one will start to do something. If the big one was fine 90% of the time on its own, it's no big deal if it actually is or not.

If the motors are in electrical series, they need to be matched for winding wire cross section, since electrical series means that the same current will flow through both of them (it only has one path). If you had one with skinny wire and one thick, the amps would be limited to whatever the thinner one could handle.

You probably won't do that, you'll probably wire them in electrical parallel. So I don't think it makes much difference.

I think I've seen a EV Corvette that was using Warp9 and an Impulse9 mated to each other in mechanical series, just because that was the max length they had available in the engine bay.



> This is making me think I will have to look towards eBay to find this rather than look for a local salvage forklift. Do all/most of these series wound DC motors have the shaft accessible on both ends to facilitate this configuration?


Nope. Most won't. No need for it most of the time. Sometimes a fan gets mounted there.

However, you only need one of them to be double-sided, the end one doesn't need it.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> If budget is any constraint... it should be the first thing on the chopping block.
> 
> How much extra would you pay for 5% improvement?


I can totally see your point, but I'm not sure I'm convinced about only a 5% improvement. According to this: 

https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-braking-how-it-works/

There are Tesla owners who have calculated and claim they are getting up to 30% effective improvement from their regen braking. Also, because my LeSharo will be significantly heavier than many EV conversions, it will have a lot more inertia, and thus more energy required (and potentially stored) from the deceleration process. 

When I was driving a Honda Insight Hybrid over "the hill" (Hwy 17) in California, I remember I would drive in lower gears, thus utilizing more of the electric assist while going up the hill and time it just right so I would use up all of the hybrid battery by the time I got to the top of the hill . . . . then by the time I got back down to the bottom of the other side, the battery would be completely charged again. This is obviously a vastly different situation being a hybrid car ~ but the daily experience of this still rings in my memory. 

While AC motors are obviously not for scrupulous budget builds in the $1k - $2k range ~ I may have a little wiggle room since my budget is up to $12k for this project. I am hoping for a 60kWh battery to start with, and if I could find that for $4k-$6k (somewhat optimistic, I know), then I would still have $6k to dedicate towards motor, controller, etc~ Thus putting AC motors back in my budget options. 

I am still hoping to receive any suggestions from folks who might know of some good stand-alone AC motors that would work for this project. 

I am also wondering. . . is there any possibility of using a Leaf motor, without all the Leaf-other-stuff? Could I potentially use a commercial EV motor, but pair it with a stand-alone controller in order to avoid all the crazy peripherals, CAN, sensors, OBDII, etc and keep the project simple? I've been down the track of seeing why it makes sense to use the entire drive-train from a commercial EV. . .. but is it really absolutely necessary? 



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> DC series motors have no defined speed. Without a load they accelerate off into orbit. With a load, they bog down and slow down. To me that seems helpful to your situation.
> 
> Suppose you have two motors, each trying to accelerate infinitely. And suppose some mismatch means one ends up trying to do all the work. Will it? It will hit a max speed, the other will continue trying to reach infinite speed, but they're on the same shaft. So, the smaller one will end up being loaded until such a point that the bigger one starts to pick up the slack again. They should roughly share the load according to their capabilities.
> 
> ...


This is awesome! I would not have thought about it this way initially, but this does make sense and gives a lot more flexibility if I choose to go the DC route.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re - Regen

A taxi driver in a big city will be the benefits from re-gen - although even then 30% is a wee bit of a stretch
But that is a LOT of stop start traffic and a situation where time is important 

Using regen on hills is a bad idea - it's a lot less efficient than simply letting your speed change as you go up and down the hills

For country driving in a sensible manner you get almost no advantage

Around here I use my brakes twice on a two hour drive - ZERO advantage from re-gen


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Re - Regen
> 
> A taxi driver in a big city will be the benefits from re-gen - although even then 30% is a wee bit of a stretch
> But that is a LOT of stop start traffic and a situation where time is important
> ...



The experience I had where regen seemed so effective was on a long hill at higher speeds where a lot of active breaking to maintain safe speeds was required. I think this type of road condition would make regen even more effective than the taxi-driver scenario. This may not be an all too often scenario, but indeed there are quite a few of these types of hills in the town I live in (Duluth ~ the San Francisco of the midwest.) 

I can totally agree that in the rolling hills of the country it would be less effective to use regen and maintain speed, than it would be to maintain motor-power and let the speed of the vehicle vary a little bit. 

Probably on a road-trip, I would not find many ideal scenarios to really utilize the regenerative braking (especially in Oklahoma ). But because I intend to utilize my RV as a daily (or more likely ~ weekly) driver in my hometown, where it seems to me regen would be most effective with a larger vehicle, I am starting to really lean towards A/C motors. 

On a related note. I had a great experience purchasing NiFe batteries through Ali-Baba. I got a 12V 400Ah battery to power my small off-grid home for a 1/3 of the price that it would have cost to purchase this item from within the US (including shipping). Is there anyone that has ordered an EV motor direct from a company in China who might want to share their experience?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Regen can only improve range if it is used to harvest energy that would have been wasted anyway, like heat from friction brakes. If it is used at other times, it will be like trying to use alternators on your wheels to improve efficiency. Generalizing range gains of regen does not make much sense unless you know exactly how and why it will be configured, since regen can actually decrease range if it is not configured correctly.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

I've been emailing with several AC motor companies in China. Lots of different products available, but I'm not finding any amazing deals. Nothing below $4.5k which kills my budget for AC. 

I've been thinking more about what Matt said:



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> If budget is any constraint... it should be the first thing on the chopping block.
> 
> How much extra would you pay for 5% improvement?


And I'm starting to think he's right. There are 3 good long hills (needs lots of braking to maintain a safe-speed) in my town where I could benefit considerably from the regen. But how often am I really going down those hills? Less than 1% of my driving time? So even if I did get a notable boost from those few times. . . I don't think it really is going to make a big difference in my situation. I have a lot of country hills, but I think Duncan was right about his idea there. 

So I'm back in the forklift camp! Would this be a decent option for one of the motors? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Motor-C...422776?hash=item2aa89c01b8:g:ITwAAOSw1Fda3iGI
(Mods, please let me know if there is a better way to share this information than an eBay link?)

It has shaft to work with on both sides, but it looks pretty small. . . 6 3/4" diameter by 11 1/4", but the listing says it only weighs 53 pounds. Could it be pared mechanically in series with a 150 lb motor to make a "200 lb combined" motor? 

I've been wondering also about buying a ready-made speed controller, as making one seems a bit daunting. . . though really enticing! This one seems incredibly inexpensive to me:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-Dun...652058?hash=item2f1cdc23da:g:mN4AAOSwOLVbLD6r

Obviously I want to use more than 72V. But it seems like it's difficult to find anything on eBay with higher than golf-cart voltages. I am basing a 400A rating by hoping to run my motor at about 150V, and presumably most of the time I would be using about 45kW of power, making close to 300A; thus, 400A would give me a little wiggle room. Could I have a morbidly inadequate estimate for my typical power draw from a dual dc-series-wound motor? Or do I need to be more careful to really calculate what the peak amp-load would be? 

In talking with Chinese companies, I did find a really smoking deal on LiFePo4 batteries. At least it seems like a pretty good deal for new batteries to me. . . $35/module for 3.2V 100AH with 120wh/kg density rating. Let me know if anyone is interested to team up for a larger order~

Still thinking the lead MattsAwesome sent me earlier might be a better battery solution


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
That motor is far too small for a car
You should be looking for 9 inches in diameter and about 60kg 
I'm using 11 inches in diameter and 102 kg

E-Bay is not much use for that - you need to look up the people who sell and repair forklifts locally and go and visit them
Forklifts are often scrapped because the batteries are dead and cost too much to replace

At the forklift place ask for an old motor - and ask if they is somebody who takes and scraps old forklifts

Take cash with you! - those motors almost always end up as scrap metal 

Here a good 11 inch motor is $200

Controllers - you need the voltage 144v is about the MINIMUM - 

If you are putting two motors together you need to remember that the Com and brushes are designed to work at a certain current
If you just spin a motor with zero current on the brushes you will get accelerated wear on either the brushes or the com and it will destroy the "film" on the com 
So you would need to drive both motors


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Re - AC motors

The best bet is a re-purposed OEM motor - Tesla or Leaf or summat


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> That motor is far too small for a car
> You should be looking for 9 inches in diameter and about 60kg
> I'm using 11 inches in diameter and 102 kg


These are some good basic guidelines. Thank you~ I had a feeling that one would be pretty much useless~



Duncan said:


> Take cash with you! - those motors almost always end up as scrap metal


I'm going to follow this advice!




Duncan said:


> Controllers - you need the voltage 144v is about the MINIMUM -


This is about what I was thinking since I'm not trying to achieve very high speeds. It is a somewhat heavy conversion though. . . would it be wise to go with a higher voltage? Or is this range about as far as you want to push a 36-ish volt series wound DC?




Duncan said:


> If you are putting two motors together you need to remember that the Com and brushes are designed to work at a certain current
> If you just spin a motor with zero current on the brushes you will get accelerated wear on either the brushes or the com and it will destroy the "film" on the com
> So you would need to drive both motors



I'm way new to all of this. . . especially about putting two motors in mechanical series. I've been told running them in electrical parallel will probably be the best way to go. . . so wouldn't there always be at least some current over both motors?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Re - AC motors
> 
> The best bet is a re-purposed OEM motor - Tesla or Leaf or summat



Yes! I really want to do this, but then it seems that I get stuck taking the inverter/controller from the OEM vehicle. . . and then I also need some crazy fuse box because otherwise the computer/CAN controller that I need is going to be pissed at me. . . and then I also need 3 other boxes I don't even know what they do, and if they ever break I can't replace them. . . Forgive me for ranting. . . am I way off here? IS there a relatively simply way to pull and use a motor from a Leaf?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I can totally see your point, but I'm not sure I'm convinced about only a 5% improvement. According to this There are Tesla owners who have calculated and claim they are getting up to 30% effective improvement from their regen braking.


I'm extremely skeptical of 30%.

But, consider, if you drive like an idiot, in traffic, and you have a red light ahead but you slam the accelerator to get to the red lights as fast as possible, and then slam the brake at the last minute, yeah, you'll "recover" a lot of energy. You would have not spent that energy in the first place if you drove like someone who isn't showing off.

The advantage on the highway is nothing.

In a motorhome, you'll have enough mass that you won't be aggressively driving anyway.



> So I'm back in the forklift camp! Would this be a decent option for one of the motors?


No no no.

If you're finding a motor on Ebay, someone has spent money to extract it, and expects money for it.

The only people buying motors on Ebay are those that need that specific make/model of motor to make a specific forklift functional again. Forklift motors are like, $5000 new, so buying one used is an okay prospect.

It's the kind of thing that has massive split between the buy and sell rates. If you *need* that exact motor, you're paying astronomical prices. If you try to sell that same motor tomorrow, you won't get scrap price for it unless you wait around for years until someone needs it.

Go to a forklift yard and have a polite conversation. Tell them what you're looking for, offer to do the work yourself on a carcass when they have one suitable.

The used forklift market is generally "scrap it for the batteries to put into a working forklift and get a few more years out of it". The place near me pretty much throws away the whole rest of the forklift, occasionally grabs fuses and stuff but that's it. It's not even worth their money to strip it, they toss the whole thing in the generic steel bin, not even selling the motor as a motor (scrap rates probably 100x scrap steel). Heck, many of them *pay* to have their steel bins hauled away, because scrap steel is worth less than the gas to drive it to the metal yard.



> Obviously I want to use more than 72V. But it seems like it's difficult to find anything on eBay with higher than golf-cart voltages. I am basing a 400A rating by hoping to run my motor at about 150V, and presumably most of the time I would be using about 45kW of power, making close to 300A; thus, 400A would give me a little wiggle room. Could I have a morbidly inadequate estimate for my typical power draw from a dual dc-series-wound motor? Or do I need to be more careful to really calculate what the peak amp-load would be?


So, the motor's rating is going to be 36-48v for a forklift motor. Ignore that. Feed it 150v+. Everyone does this without issue. Duncan fed his 300+V drag racing for years and even then only fried brushes in a fluke jam. He was shoving like, 100x the power it was rated for into it.

If you want to just buy a controller, I think Damien is selling a DC controller at pretty close to cost. Thousand bucks maybe? Solder monkey work all that's required as far as I know.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Hey Everyone. My full thread has been restored! Hallelujah! 

Why do I feel like I've been in Episode 2 of "Who Killed the Electric Car" these last few weeks!? 

I want to update you about my direction with electric vehicles, and progress. I also want to thank this amazing community of educators for their help in disseminating vital information to the gobal DIY sustainability community!

I have been trying to track down 2 forklift motors which I could run in mechanical series for this larger sized vehicle. Not much luck up here in Duluth, it seems Northland folk are afraid of lead-acid batteries, so there are not many electric forklifts, salvaged or otherwise, in the area. I did find one guy on Craigslist who has a national business getting value out of salvaged forklifts, mainly by recycling or reconditioning the batteries. . . but they are starting to fill up their warehouse and considering starting to pull some motors. He said he would get two for me to my specifications. . about 3 weeks ago  

Meanwhile, I purchased a nice condition 2013 Nissan Leaf to start driving and just getting a feel for electric cars. I figured this would be a faster way to viscerally get the experience of what it is like to drive an electric vehicle, and perhaps make wiser decisions for a conversion. 

Winter is rapidly approaching for our trip, so I am not sure the full LeSharo conversion will happen this year. . . though I am still having wishful thinking! I am in love with this Leaf, and may consider a smaller and more economical conversion at some point in the future. Still very keen on converting my Bobcat Skidsteer someday also. 

One unrelated thing I wanted to ask you all~

My friend/business-partner sent this to me:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xuMcEpAeLvgCBqVl7vX0HQwVXvbwWAGQO2-GqKbrauY/edit?usp=sharing

Looks like a perpetual motion machine to me? They say "no friction" but there are chains and gears in there. . . lol! Anyone who knows more about generators/alternators etc want to help me eat this thing apart?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 
I had a quick look at your document
Up to page 25 it's OK

Then it goes loopy! - a total lack of understanding of how electromagnetic force is exerted 
I stopped at that point


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I had a quick look at your document
> Up to page 25 it's OK
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking Duncan. I assume you mean this part:

"So, when the speed of the motor is reduced by the application of load, Eb
decreases. Thus the voltage difference between supply
voltage and back emf increases that means E − Eb
increases. Due to this increased voltage difference,
armature current will increase and therefore torque and
hence speed increases. Thus a DC Motor is capable of
maintaining the same speed under variable load."


I don't know enough about this stuff to see what's amiss! Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by "loopy" so I can explain to my friend why this is a waste of time .

Your explanation might also help slightly as I wonder about the feasibility of using a DC motor back emf to work a regen-breaking situation. . . ?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> One unrelated thing I wanted to ask you all~
> 
> My friend/business-partner sent this to me:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xuMcEpAeLvgCBqVl7vX0HQwVXvbwWAGQO2-GqKbrauY/edit?usp=sharing
> ...


Please move this perpetual motion crap to the thread dedicated to this stuff: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that.... I only skimmed it quickly, but it has the typical elements of a perpetual motion scam, with both flywheels and "magnet power" for bonus points, complete with what appears to be an associated pyramid scheme of fraud. As usual, there is valid technical content (in the description of energy sources) to make it look legitimate, before it proceeds into complete bullshit.

I would question whether anyone who is really your friend would try to get you to buy into this fraud. It is possible that he has been genuinely fooled, but it's pretty blatant perpetual motion crap.



Meni Menindorf said:


> Your explanation might also help slightly as I wonder about the feasibility of using a DC motor back emf to work a regen-breaking situation. . . ?


 Since the whole thing is a fraud, I don't think there is any point in trying to learn about legitimate motor control techniques from it. Any idea introduced in this document is more likely to be misleading than to be a good starting point for technical education.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

About page 26

_Working principle
Using the technology electric cars use nowadays, the Power Efficiency Guide was developed to be easier to build than any other generator plans.
Some of steel parts can be made from wood instead of metal. But for a long lasting and a more reliable it is best to use steel or strong materials. Please be careful!
The generator starts with a DC motor, which in the case of his first prototype is a General Electric permanent magnet, one-twelfth horsepower (62 watt) 12-volt motor which runs at 1100 rpm. That motor is coupled to a gear that transfers the spins, multiplying them to another gear that is attached to a flywheel’s driveshaft.
Once the driveshaft reaches the optimum RPMs, around 2000, the rotor attached to the other end of the flywheel will spin with the flywheel with the same RPMs.
One of the other rotors will start to spin along with the main rotor because of the neodymium magnets and will start to power the DC motor.
This is the moment the battery is removed because the system will self-sustain itself. The constant RPSs of the second rotor will provide enough energy to supply the DC motor that supplies the flywheel.
The energy will not be lost due to the strength of the magnets and because there is no contact and no friction to diminish the energy._

*The energy will not be lost due to the strength of the magnets and because there is no contact and no friction to diminish the energy.*

When I was about 10 years old I designed something like this! 
The author is saying that the force is perpendicular to the direction of motion - and that it therefore will not slow the rotor down

Unfortunately the force from the conductor with electricity going through it is NOT perpendicular and is against the direction of motion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-hand_rule


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Please move this perpetual motion crap to the thread dedicated to this stuff: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that.... I only skimmed it quickly, but it has the typical elements of a perpetual motion scam, with both flywheels and "magnet power" for bonus points, complete with what appears to be an associated pyramid scheme of fraud. As usual, there is valid technical content (in the description of energy sources) to make it look legitimate, before it proceeds into complete bullshit.
> 
> I would question whether anyone who is really your friend would try to get you to buy into this fraud. It is possible that he has been genuinely fooled, but it's pretty blatant perpetual motion crap.



Thank you Brian and Duncan ~ these are the words I need to set my friend straight. I thought the "magnet power" was pretty hilarious too. . . 

I was indeed surprised when he sent this to me with any degree of serious interest! My immediate response was that there is no free lunch of the world of physics. . . but now I have some more technical tid-bits to follow-up. And I will no longer muddle my build-thread with this style of rubbish!


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

There's something I've been wondering about . . . Since it sounds like some people run DC series forklift motors up to 10x their rated voltage, it wouldn't be too unreasonable for me to operate my motors (placed in mechanical series) each at 200V. Since I am thinking of using a leaf battery system, it would come at about 380V (unless I want to really get in there and rewire everything) it seems like running my two motors off of this battery in ELECTRICAL series as well would place both motors near 200V ~ within the reasonable realm? 

Furthermore. . . why the hell am I having such a hard time finding forklift motors?? Is it just MN, with a huge gaping gap on the charging station map North of Minneapolis? Is everyone here terrified of electric vehicles, fork-lift or otherwise?? I got the impression that finding a couple DC series motors wouldn't be so hard. . . any tips for me on how to do this back-end work? 

On a semi-related note (maybe someone can help me with a better thread for this type of thing?) I took a ride on a vintage diesel electric train yesterday. A vehicle weighing over 700k lbs, with steel friction to boot, was being driven by 2 150hp electric motors. Giant diesel generators pump out 600V, at (I assume, since the conductor only knew the horsepower) about 224kW. They said they use about 10 gallons of diesel fuel for their 45 minute round trip. I rough calculated that it would require about 15 30kWh battery packs to do the same mission without the generator.  It had me wondering though . . . would 3 of my Nissan Leaf's really be able to pull that whole train?!??. . . you know, 10mph on flat ground, like the little diesel electric yard engine was doing *the wonder of electric motor torque


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> On a semi-related note (maybe someone can help me with a better thread for this type of thing?) I took a ride on a vintage diesel electric train yesterday. A vehicle weighing over 700k lbs, with steel friction to boot, was being driven by 2 150hp electric motors. Giant diesel generators pump out 600V, at (I assume, since the conductor only knew the horsepower) about 224kW. They said they use about 10 gallons of diesel fuel for their 45 minute round trip. I rough calculated that it would require about 15 30kWh battery packs to do the same mission without the generator.  It had me wondering though . . . would 3 of my Nissan Leaf's really be able to pull that whole train?!??. . . you know, 10mph on flat ground, like the little diesel electric yard engine was doing *the wonder of electric motor torque


If I have my math right burning 10 gallons of diesel can deliver about 400 kWh of heat energy, but if the diesel engines and generators are 30% efficient that's only 120 kWh of electrical energy. Maybe only five 30 kWh battery packs?

If you're willing to accelerate gradually - and train acceleration is very gradual - you don't need much power. A sports car, a light pickup with the optional engine, a typical heavy pickup, a medium-duty truck, and a older highway transport truck - all will have about 400 horsepower engines, each getting the job done but at very different rates of acceleration. Of course the larger vehicles use heavier engines, because those engines must work hard for longer, not just in short spurts.

The trick is having a transmission which can run at the required speed ratio, and a heavier load makes it more important to get close so more ratios are needed. A generator and motor set is a continuously variable transmission with an infinitely low lowest gear. The only special thing about electric motor torque is that it is available down to zero speed... just like a hydraulic motor.

Three of the motors from typical modern EVs could certainly move a lot of train; the challenge is to ensure that they can work hard continuously, which is largely a matter of cooling. Nissan rates their motor relatively conservatively (80 kW isn't a stretch for that size of motor) so three of them driving a train isn't unreasonable if geared appropriately. On the other hand, if you think single small Tesla motor can do it (because it is rated for two or three hundred horsepower), you'll probably find that you're mistaken about one minute into the trial.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> but if the diesel engines and generators are 30% efficient that's only 120 kWh of electrical energy. Maybe only five 30 kWh battery packs?


I love this! Optimism. It would be awesome to behold a dead-silent train hauling 350 tons with such a small battery pack, and a motor not much bigger than your average dinner table 



brian_ said:


> If you're willing to accelerate gradually -


I love accelerating gradually <3 




brian_ said:


> On the other hand, if you think single small Tesla motor can do it (because it is rated for two or three hundred horsepower), you'll probably find that you're mistaken about one minute into the trial.


Very interesting!


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

OK!


I had another talk with my welder, and I am leaning further and further in the direction of doing a full Leaf-Sharo cutaway ~ essentially cutting off the back half of my 2013 Nissan Leaf, and marrying the front half, including drive-train and drivers compartment intact, onto the back-half/living compartment of my LeSharo. Here is a really terrible mock-up of what this might look like, including a 12" lift on the back leaf-spring suspension of the LeSharo (which will also make extra room for mounting batteries underneath):











One of the main technical obstacles for me to personally tackle, will be to add additional Leaf batteries in parallel. I am assuming I will need 3 24kwh packs total: one that is in the Leaf currently, and two more that I will purchase used. 



I want to dig into some of the details of what this process will look like. I have mocked up two wiring diagrams to illustrate a question I have: 




















Get ready for some real noobiness! When wiring these 380V units in parallel, should I run the wires from one battery to the next (as in diagram A) or should I run each of them straight to the "controller" (probably not even using the right term here?) -- as in diagram B. Seems like diagram A would be much more simple, but will this be sufficient? Will the batteries wear or draw amperage differently because of their different distances from the amp-drawing source? Could this be mitigated by using larger wires on the farthest battery? 



Speaking of wire size. . . according to vikingelectric.com, I would need #12 wire for 480V, 200A, 15ft run. According to this site: http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html, I would need 2 AWG, or 50MM^2 . . . none of this means much to me, since I'm not all that familiar with wiring sizes. Anyone out there have thoughts/feedback about these numbers? Any suggestions about how to select wire for this, or where to source it? 



I am also wondering about how to make the physical connections, and exactly what the plugs are like. I found this image:











Can anyone help me understand what I am looking at? This is just the positive terminal, and it looks like there are 5 different connectors? What are all these different terminals for?



How am I going to wire this all up without killing myself!?


Please send help. . .


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I had another talk with my welder, and I am leaning further and further in the direction of doing a full Leaf-Sharo cutaway ~ essentially cutting off the back half of my 2013 Nissan Leaf, and marrying the front half, including drive-train and drivers compartment intact, onto the back-half/living compartment of my LeSharo. Here is a really terrible mock-up of what this might look like, including a 12" lift on the back leaf-spring suspension of the LeSharo (which will also make extra room for mounting batteries underneath)


You wouldn't really keep the Renault part of the LeSharo (the cab), would you? Without the cab (just keeping the living part of the LeSharo as you said), and with only the front seat area of the Leaf retained, even just the Leaf battery would extend way under the living area... I hope you've realized that.

But really, a foot of lift? At this point, you could use any travel trailer body that you like, and mount it on a custom frame... it would avoid chopping up a LeSharo, and not be any more work.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Speaking of wire size. . . according to vikingelectric.com, I would need #12 wire for 480V, 200A, 15ft run. According to this site: http://www.solar-wind.co.uk/cable-sizing-DC-cables.html, I would need 2 AWG, or 50MM^2 . . . none of this means much to me, since I'm not all that familiar with wiring sizes. Anyone out there have thoughts/feedback about these numbers?


Required wire size (gauge, cross-sectional area, thickness...) depends on how much heating is acceptable (without melting the insulation...), how much power you can stand to lose to resistance, etc. The current capacity doesn't depend on the voltage, but since the power transmitted does, once you define an acceptable power loss that determines the acceptable resistance and thus the wire gauge (the calculation at Solar-Wind). There's no single correct gauge for a particular current that works for all cable types and applications.

I'm sure someone will offer a more useful reference source, but some initial thoughts:

Don't even think of putting 200 amps through 12 gauge wire, unless you're using a short piece of 12 gauge as a fuse. 
2 AWG is the size of an automotive battery or starter cable, good for hundreds of amps (at least for a brief period).
50 mm2 is quite a bit thicker than 2 AWG... it's almost 0 AWG or British SWG (smaller number mean thicker in gauge sizes); Solar-Wind's calculator appears to just show 50 mm2 for anything over 240 volts.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Will the batteries wear or draw amperage differently because of their different distances from the amp-drawing source?


Yes, because they will be connected through different resistance paths. The usual fix to this is to go ahead with diagram A, except that if you connect the positive side of the controller to the left battery, connect the negative side of the controller to the right battery (even though that means a longer wire on one terminal of the controller). If you trace the wiring path length for a complete circuit through each battery, you'll find it's the same length.

You can look at how cells are connected within a battery module for examples of this technique.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I am also wondering about how to make the physical connections, and exactly what the plugs are like. I found this image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks like a terminal assembly for a common automotive 12-volt battery positive post, not for anything from a high-voltage system for an EV. If it's a 12-volt battery part, then the multiple pins are to connect multiple circuits directly to the battery.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi

Sounds like a good idea - I'm not sure if the Leaf packs will like being connected up like that - they may argue with each other

I would suggest using you second diagram with two contactors on each leaf pack - and some circuits to make sure that you are only connecting one pack at a time

Then drive on Pack 1 - until it is down - switch to Pack 2 - until it is down - then Pack 3

Then once parked and connected to mains you go back to Pack 1 - charge it - then Pack 2 

Like having three "fuel tanks"


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> You wouldn't really keep the Renault part of the LeSharo (the cab), would you? Without the cab (just keeping the living part of the LeSharo as you said), and with only the front seat area of the Leaf retained, even just the Leaf battery would extend way under the living area... I hope you've realized that.
> 
> But really, a foot of lift? At this point, you could use any travel trailer body that you like, and mount it on a custom frame... it would avoid chopping up a LeSharo, and not be any more work.


We are keeping the driver compartment of the LeSharo, in order to extend the "living-space". The front driver seat may remain intact as a place to sit and enjoy the road, and the front passenger seat will be removed, most likely to host a small removable fire-box for Winter traveling. 

A foot of lift is kind of ridiculous, and we are hoping it won't have to be quite this high. . . but we want the LeSharo part of the vehicle to sit relatively level. Raising it up this much will make the metal just under the front windshield of the LeSharo match up with the roof of the Leaf ~ thus we have a decent place to marry the two bodies, and retain the windshield from the LeSharo. 

True that we could use any travel-trailer/camper! But we already own the LeSharo, love the lay-out of it, and also . . . it just recently broke down ~ much as I was suspecting . Something is going on with the ignition module, which is not readily available unless I start hunting in salvage yards. All the more motivation to give the LeSharo living space, which we love, a brand-new drive-train. 

Oh, and yes! The battery and frame of the Leaf would extend a ways beyond the visible connection point between the two vehicles, and the frame of the LeSharo would sit above it. Some overlap of the two frames should add to the structural stability of the project. . . it may make working on the front battery difficult. . . But typically it's accessed from below anyway? Hoping since the battery is about 10" high, it will fit into the ~12" space between the frames. Need to keep all this in mind as we are seeing how both frames fit together.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Required wire size (gauge, cross-sectional area, thickness...) depends on how much heating is acceptable (without melting the insulation...), how much power you can stand to lose to resistance, etc. The current capacity doesn't depend on the voltage, but since the power transmitted does, once you define an acceptable power loss that determines the acceptable resistance and thus the wire gauge (the calculation at Solar-Wind). There's no single correct gauge for a particular current that works for all cable types and applications.
> 
> I'm sure someone will offer a more useful reference source, but some initial thoughts:
> 
> ...


Sounds like I want to use at least 0 gauge wire? or even 00 if I can afford it?? I would not want long wire runs from the battery to make the whole system inefficient from heat and resistance. . . 

Webosolar.com says this:
"*Use 4/0 gauge cable in circuits protected by 250A breakers or 400A fuses.* For circuits with 175A breakers and 200A fuses use 2/0 cable."

Seems like 2/0 might be sufficient, considering 200A is only drawn when the 80kW motor is at full load. . . which I hope to rarely do, and if at all, only for very short bursts. If the hill is that steep, I'm going to take another route .

That being said, I might just spring for 4/0 to reduce resistance. 4/0 means 0000 gauge, right?

Also, if I can really get away with running these batteries in simultaneous parallel, then the AMP draw on each individual battery would be reduced by a factor of 3 (load spread across 3 batteries). . . so drawing 200A through any wire would be impossible anyway. . . Max amp draw on would probably be closer to 70A. . . . still thinking in the 4/0 or 2/0 range just to improve efficiency. Seems like skimping on wire is a bad idea in a situation like this? 

Anyone know the gauge of wire that is between battery/controller on a stock Leaf?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Yes, because they will be connected through different resistance paths. The usual fix to this is to go ahead with diagram A, except that if you connect the positive side of the controller to the left battery, connect the negative side of the controller to the right battery (even though that means a longer wire on one terminal of the controller). If you trace the wiring path length for a complete circuit through each battery, you'll find it's the same length.
> 
> You can look at how cells are connected within a battery module for examples of this technique.



Ok, I am a little confused by this. I started making a diagram C:












But then I realized when I finished it would look exactly like diagram B, since all batteries are connected to the same controller terminals. . . . . am I missing something in your idea? 


I would prefer if diagram A were possible, since it would reduce the amount of wire required, and also be much easier to install. Still wondering if a much fatter wire between the farthest batteries, and a smaller wire between the middle battery and the original battery, might serve to equalize the resistance?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> That looks like a terminal assembly for a common automotive 12-volt battery positive post, not for anything from a high-voltage system for an EV. If it's a 12-volt battery part, then the multiple pins are to connect multiple circuits directly to the battery.


Of 'course! #newbflagflying

I am wondering what type of connector I will need, (or possibly need to fabricate?) to connect multiple batteries to the same controller, or possibly to each-other. . . does anyone have an image of the high-voltage battery connection of the Leaf? 

Are there additional wires, perhaps for BMS, which might be advantageous to connect for my other batteries as well?


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> 
> Sounds like a good idea - I'm not sure if the Leaf packs will like being connected up like that - they may argue with each other
> 
> ...



While this all sounds very reasonable. . . it also sounds very complicated! And perhaps beyond my capabilities. . . though I am open to learning more?

Am I going to totally screw up if I just connect them all simultaneously/directly? Is the Leaf control/computer going to know that something is up and get angry at me? I assuming the internal computer will be somewhat confused, registering a certain voltage, assuming there is, say, 50 mi of range left, but the actual AH behind the voltage is 3x greater than the computer expects. . . 

I assumed the batteries would "fight with each other" for a while at first, until eventually they would kind of "level the playing field" and essentially start acting like one big battery. . . is this an unreasonable hope?

Also~ part of my hope with this system was that running additional batteries in parallel would reduce the wear and tear on each battery. The system will be driving a vehicle more than twice the weight that it was rated for, but by reducing the amp-draw on each battery by 3x, it seemed like I might actually extend the life of the battery somewhat. . . I would not get this effect by using only 1 battery at a time. Each battery would get the full wear'n'tear in this scenario. . . . but! Is my idea possible?


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Ok, I am a little confused by this.


He means this:










Same lenght of cable no matter what.


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Sounds like a good idea - I'm not sure if the Leaf packs will like being connected up like that - they may argue with each other
> 
> I would suggest using you second diagram with two contactors on each leaf pack - and some circuits to make sure that you are only connecting one pack at a time


If necessary, then you gotta do what you gotta do.

I don't think that would be necessary though. Voltage is voltage. They should cooperate just fine in parallel. I can't think of why they wouldn't, unless there's some sensor that monitors how much current leaves a pack and how much arrives at a motor.

For the health of the battery packs, you'll get 5x the life out of them if you keep them in parallel. The benefits of not deep-discharging or heavy loading a pack are significantly non-linear.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> He means this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brilliant! Thank you for the clarification



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> For the health of the battery packs, you'll get 5x the life out of them if you keep them in parallel. The benefits of not deep-discharging or heavy loading a pack are significantly non-linear.


This is great information, and a big part of why I'm hoping to keep this ASAP ~ as simple as possible. 

Wiring it like this, is it going to give me any issues with BMS information being transmitted from the first/original battery? The Leaf will essentially be communicating about temperature (and any other information?) with the first battery, but not get any input from the additional two. . . I'm kind of assuming it won't be an issue since all temps will stay much lower in parallel like this~


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> The battery and frame of the Leaf would extend a ways beyond the visible connection point between the two vehicles, and the frame of the LeSharo would sit above it. Some overlap of the two frames should add to the structural stability of the project. . . it may make working on the front battery difficult. . . But typically it's accessed from below anyway? Hoping since the battery is about 10" high, it will fit into the ~12" space between the frames. Need to keep all this in mind as we are seeing how both frames fit together.


No, the battery won't go between the frames, if by that you mean below the LeSharo frame and above the Leaf frame. The Leaf battery, like that of most production EVs, is hung below the vehicle's floor (sitting partially between structural sills or rails), and is accessed entirely from below.

If additional Leaf battery packs extend further rearward, will they block access to anything that needs to be accessible under the floor of the stock LeSharo?

If the LeSharo is like the later Rialta (which used a VW Eurovan cab and forward chassis instead of Renault Trafic), then the structure of the cab&chassis extends rearward like a traditional ladder frame, and the RV coach would be designed to mate with that. The Leaf does not have this kind of structure, so you would need to effectively tie higher parts of the Leaf to something structural in the LeSharo. Maybe the cowl would work, but it would take careful examination to decide, and substantial building of transition pieces between the donor vehicles.

This also raises the question of the Leaf's front axle / suspension capacity... and whether it is adequate for the front of the RV. Gross Axle Weight Rating is found on the same placard that shows Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, for each of the two vehicles.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> He means this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that's exactly what I meant! Thanks Matt


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

I think I'm going to let others handle the wire gauge advice, but...


Meni Menindorf said:


> 4/0 means 0000 gauge, right?


Yes.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> No, the battery won't go between the frames, if by that you mean below the LeSharo frame and above the Leaf frame. The Leaf battery, like that of most production EVs, is hung below the vehicle's floor (sitting partially between structural sills or rails), and is accessed entirely from below.


I should have guessed this. Good to be aware of while considering how the two frames will fit together. I'm hoping I don't have to remove the battery pack that is already installed in order to make the welds. 



brian_ said:


> If additional Leaf battery packs extend further rearward, will they block access to anything that needs to be accessible under the floor of the stock LeSharo?


I am pretty sure nothing critical will be blocked. We are removing a black-water tank that we don't use anyway -- the coach batteries will be removed since they are no longer needed -- and of 'course ye ol' tail-pipe will be removed. 



brian_ said:


> If the LeSharo is like the later Rialta (which used a VW Eurovan cab and forward chassis instead of Renault Trafic), then the structure of the cab&chassis extends rearward like a traditional ladder frame, and the RV coach would be designed to mate with that. The Leaf does not have this kind of structure, so you would need to effectively tie higher parts of the Leaf to something structural in the LeSharo. Maybe the cowl would work, but it would take careful examination to decide, and substantial building of transition pieces between the donor vehicles.


Yes! This is an excellent point. It's going to be an engineering challenge to weld these two frames together. We will probably need to fabricate a number of structural components to tie the two together. I am no expertise at this, but I do get a strong sense of capability and professionalism from the welder I'm working with. 



brian_ said:


> This also raises the question of the Leaf's front axle / suspension capacity... and whether it is adequate for the front of the RV. Gross Axle Weight Rating is found on the same placard that shows Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, for each of the two vehicles.


Yes, I was also concerned about this. Currently researching the possibility of beefing up the Leaf's front suspension (especially when I think about the strain of braking force.) But also, the weight rating printed on the tires is 1350lbs, which leads me to believe we are within tolerance with the existing system.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Currently researching the possibility of beefing up the Leaf's front suspension (especially when I think about the strain of braking force.)


That's tricky, because we don't know what components limit the capacity. It could be just the springs (unlikely), but it could be any other components... struts, control arms, bearings, spindles, etc. How would you know that you have successfully created a higher-capacity system?



Meni Menindorf said:


> But also, the weight rating printed on the tires is 1350lbs, which leads me to believe we are within tolerance with the existing system.


Be careful with that one - most cars have tires which are sized for handling, ride, or even just appearance, and have much more capacity than the vehicle needs. Even with 2700 pounds of tire capacity on the axle, the axle rating may be much less.

On the other hand, even 2700 pounds isn't much for the front of this RV. Have you ever weighed the LeSharo?

To complicate planning further, the EV conversion will shift weight rearward (replace engine with somewhat lighter motor up front, but add massive battery in middle), possibly reducing the front axle load (and substantially increasing rear axle load). The currently planned hybrid body would shift the front axle substantially forward, again reducing front axle load and increasing rear axle load... and increasing bending stress on the structure.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> We are removing a black-water tank that we don't use anyway -- the coach batteries will be removed since they are no longer needed -- and of 'course ye ol' tail-pipe will be removed.


That makes sense... but it's also a reminder to include a DC-to-DC converter in your component shopping list that has enough capacity for everything that you might simultaneously use in the RV (assuming that you will be running the RVs 12 V DC loads from the EV battery).


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> Speaking of wire size. . . according to vikingelectric.com, I would need #12 wire for 480V, 200A, 15ft run.


I can't find that on their website. The highest rating I find for #12 is 20 amp, not 200 

I dunno, unless you want cool orange ground effects as a byproduct of accelerating.

Here's another chart: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It lists two different methods for determining wire thickness. One is "Max amps for chassis wiring" another is "Max amps for power transmission". The later I think presumes some amount of bundling.

In between those two ratings is the rating you'd use for a house. For example, normal household wiring is 14g and rated for 15 amps, but you'll see here it's rated for 32 amps in one situation, and only 5.9 amps in the other.

It's all about what is acceptable for the situation.

As the wire gets thicker you get less surface area so the two ratings start to get close to each other.

Using them, you'll see that for 200 amps continuous, you'll need somewhere between #1 and 00 wire.

With 00, 200amps won't even make it warm, so, I'd say that's plenty. If you want to cut a corner and go a bit thinner, you're almost certainly fine. The consequence will be a little bit of energy wasted as heat and a little bit of voltage drop that affects performance. Hardly much at all.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Apparently some other people have done some pretty wild things with a LeSharo. Here's one with GM powertrain (V8) and truck axles... even using sections of the truck's frame:
4 X 4 Beach RV Camper

As a bonus, at the very end of the video we see the original Winnebago placard, showing 

GVWR: 6,340 lb / 2,870 kg
GAWR-front: 3,090 lb / 1,400 kg
GAWR-rear: 3,250 lb / 1,470 kg

The same search yielded another interesting project:
Gil's LeRiviera V8 GM conversion
The Riviera had a front half-frame design (a GM favourite of the era) shown in the 6th and 15th photos. It was apparently bolted to LeSharo frame, as shown in the 16th photo... although that is not described in the text.

If the Renault part of the LeSharo has a stub frame like this, and the RV part of the LeSharo has a frame under or as part of the floor designed to bolt to it, then the Renault cab may not have any structural role... and may not be suitable to take structural loads.

And mostly for amusement, here's a link to the classic photo from the Winnebago factory of VW Eurovan cabs and half-chassis, bolted back-to-back for shipping. The structure behind the cab is only floor-level frame rails, so they're easy to bolt together (rails overlapping) and are not attached anywhere above the floor.
http://www.rialtainfo.com/tours/images/factory_11_ev.jpg


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> That's tricky, because we don't know what components limit the capacity. It could be just the springs (unlikely), but it could be any other components... struts, control arms, bearings, spindles, etc. How would you know that you have successfully created a higher-capacity system?


Yes. . . I am worried about this too. . . 



brian_ said:


> On the other hand, even 2700 pounds isn't much for the front of this RV. Have you ever weighed the LeSharo?
> 
> To complicate planning further, the EV conversion will shift weight rearward (replace engine with somewhat lighter motor up front, but add massive battery in middle), possibly reducing the front axle load (and substantially increasing rear axle load). The currently planned hybrid body would shift the front axle substantially forward, again reducing front axle load and increasing rear axle load... and increasing bending stress on the structure.


I know . . . this thing is going to be HEAVY! I am not too concerned about the back axle. . . I could be wrong, but that thing just looks pretty beefy. I have been thinking about turning the rear wheels into dualys, just because it would make me feel more comfortable about the carrying capacity of the rear. There is a fair amount of overhang off the back-end, so the back axle will indeed take more than half of the weight. That being said, I really don't think there is any concern of reducing the load on the front! We are adding a lot of weight to the vehicle, and mainly off-setting it rear-wards about half-way (adding 1000lbs of batteries to the center.) I'm thinking the current load on the front may be at about 150% - 175%? (Rough estimate!) And it seems like this may be within reason considering how generously things tend to be rated these days. . . but more research is needed.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> That makes sense... but it's also a reminder to include a DC-to-DC converter in your component shopping list that has enough capacity for everything that you might simultaneously use in the RV (assuming that you will be running the RVs 12 V DC loads from the EV battery).


This is a great point! I have not researched high-end DC-to-DC converters yet. I have been wondering about this for the solar system. . . but I hadn't thought of it for the onboard 12V system! 

I had been planning on using the Leaf's 12V system, and putting that in parallel with maybe one more deep-cycle (ha!) marine battery to run the onboard. I could monitor the voltage, and "turn on" the Leaf when I needed a charge off the Li-ion. . . 

But your idea seems more clean? More research. . .


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> 
> It lists two different methods for determining wire thickness. One is "Max amps for chassis wiring" another is "Max amps for power transmission". The later I think presumes some amount of bundling.
> 
> ...


A very informative website! But I must say. . . I'm still confused by all of this. Seems they are talking about AC current through these wires? Does it make any difference at all that we are talking about DC? What is our "situation" being an EV compared to . . . what is chassis wire anyway? lol! 



MattsAwesomeStuff said:


> With 00, 200amps won't even make it warm, so, I'd say that's plenty. If you want to cut a corner and go a bit thinner, you're almost certainly fine. The consequence will be a little bit of energy wasted as heat and a little bit of voltage drop that affects performance. Hardly much at all.


This is good practical knowledge! Thank you~ Does this stay true even for a 15 ft run? RV = LONG. I am thinking 00 will probably be fine though. . . especially considering I won't usually be drawing 200A anyway. 

So the next question is! What kind of 00 wire do I get?? Does it matter? Is stranded best? I'm guessing less stranded/flexible in this case since it doesn't need to be moved much. . . ? Seems like this stuff is about $5-6/ft. I'm going to need roughly 50ft of it, so $250. . . 

huh. . . just found this. Looks perfect?? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-0-Copper-Wire-Cable-0000-29-ft-length-/312213741034


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

brian_ said:


> Apparently some other people have done some pretty wild things with a LeSharo. Here's one with GM powertrain (V8) and truck axles... even using sections of the truck's frame:
> 4 X 4 Beach RV Camper
> 
> As a bonus, at the very end of the video we see the original Winnebago placard, showing
> ...


That 4x4 looks like it has about the same lift on it that mine will get. Doesn't look too crazy!  And good find on the GAWR for the rear axle! Seems like I'm going to be close, but within range. . . 

Some awesome posts! The LeRiviera is my same year too  Hillarious on the Winnebago factory! 

I am considering doing some visual modifications (probably temporary) to get this thing considered for a Burning Man mutant vehicle. . . trying to think of something hillarious/artistic that I could do with the solar array on it. . . Hmmm  Have I mentioned rain catchment from the solar panels filtered and funneled into the water storage tank?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Seems they are talking about AC current through these wires? Does it make any difference at all that we are talking about DC?


I don't think it matters, as long as AC current is the RMS average. Since the concern is heating due to resistance, the actual instantaneous current doesn't matter, and the average over a cycle is fine.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> I am not too concerned about the back axle. . . I could be wrong, but that thing just looks pretty beefy. I have been thinking about turning the rear wheels into dualys, just because it would make me feel more comfortable about the carrying capacity of the rear.


I doubt that dual rear wheels make sense. Aside from whether or not they will fit, you can probably get single tires to fit with greater load carrying capacity, so if the tires are the limitation a dually setup is probably not required to fix it.

One of the problems with a dually approach is that suitable wheels are rare down in these sizes, because no one has sold dual-rear-wheel vehicles in North America with less than 16" wheel diameter for decades, if they ever did.

The stock tire size is 215/75R14. This is an old size, mostly used only for trailers now, but you can still get motor vehicle tires in this size. Although the placard suggests that it is supposed to have load range D commercial or truck & van tires, even an ordinary passenger car tire (P215/75R14 Standard Load) has just enough capacity for the GAWR, and a common "Euro-metric" general purpose tire (215/75R14 Standard Load) has a reasonable margin.

The overall tire diameter (of a 215/75R14 tire of any type) is just under 27 inches. There are few tires left in production for a 14" wheel, but if you change up to larger diameter wheels and go a bit larger overall you should be able to get more capacity.

If you can fit in LT225/75R16 or 225/75R16 commercial tires, you can use the same ones as found on Ram ProMaster commercial vans... they're 29.3" overall diameter, and if you were to inflate them to their maximum (which is a very hard 80 psi, so don't go that high unless you have to), a pair can handle 5,000 pounds of axle load. Or - and this is what I think would be best - the tires of a single-rear-wheel Ford Transit, which are 235/65R16 commercial type... only 28" overall and even more capacity, so you could use more moderate pressure.

What tire size will fit will depend on the Leaf front, not the lifted LeSharo rear.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> ...
> There is a fair amount of overhang off the back-end, so the back axle will indeed take more than half of the weight. That being said, I really don't think there is any concern of reducing the load on the front! We are adding a lot of weight to the vehicle, and mainly off-setting it rear-wards about half-way (adding 1000lbs of batteries to the center.) I'm thinking the current load on the front may be at about 150% - 175%? (Rough estimate!) And it seems like this may be within reason considering how generously things tend to be rated these days. . . but more research is needed.


While we're just making educated guesses now, it is straightforward to anticipate the weight distribution between the axles. The method is the same as used in aviation to track the "weight and balance" of an aircraft. For each object, the objects mass (or weight) and distance from a reference point are listed, along with the moment (product of mass and that distance). The total of the moments, divided by the total mass, is the average distance... or the distance from the reference point to the centre of mass.

Of course not all of the LeSharo's component masses and distances are known, but you can start with one list item for the entire vehicle, and subtract what you take out (or cut off), then add what install (or weld on).


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## MattsAwesomeStuff (Aug 10, 2017)

> So the next question is! What kind of 00 wire do I get?? Does it matter? Is stranded best? I'm guessing less stranded/flexible in this case since it doesn't need to be moved much. . . ?


The more strands, the more flexible, the more expensive.

Electrically, any will suffice.

You will want it as flexible as possible. Vibration will shatter your terminal connections for one. For another, I suspect you are seriously undervaluing how bendy you require the cable to be.

Cheap-ish heavy cable would be welding (could be used) cable, since welders need to snake and bend their lines all over the place when welding.



> huh. . . just found this. Looks perfect??
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-0-Copper-...-/312213741034


That looks to me like wire you'd use for permanent infrastructure wiring. Minimal stranded-ness for the length. I suspect you'd find that just about impossible to use. Tightness he's bent it to is pretty much the sharpest bends you can make and it'll spring out if you let it go.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Ok, it's been a long long while, but believe it or not, I usually don't totally abandon projects, I just have to wait for them to resurface sometimes. 

Something has come up which I am interested to discuss with all you creative people. I have been Reconditioning lead acid batteries, and i am totally amazed by the results! I follow this recipe to a T, and make enough solution to fill as many car Batteries as I want. How to recondition a car battery at home

The cost in materials is about $5.50/battery. But what's really amazing is that by all my observable means (I should really get something to measure amps i/o) these batteries seem to far outperform the lead acid they once were. They seem to perform more like a NiFe batterey in terms of their voltage response curve and temperature during heavy charging (a lot cooler than lead-acid!). I would rough guesstimate that these are out performing a new deep cycle by 4:1. 

I have heard of people doing an EV with a reasonable range with 10 or 12 lead-acid Batteries.... This makes me think that if I put 20 of these in series it might make a pretty rocking pack! One that might be capable of driving a lESharo, say 50-60mi.... Alas, maybe not a LeafSharo, but I am now considering doing a more traditional conversation, since I (potentially?) just scored a diy Battery pack in the $110 range. 

But I still really want that regen!! Which is why I am bringing this to you all. Where can I score an A/C motor+controller on the used/cheap/salvaged side? Something big enough for my 1,800+lb vehicle (80k, to ... 50k min? I only want to go 45 on flat.) Copart for a really totalled Leaf or Volt? ... But... Yuk. Maybe. 

Where else might I look?? 

Did I mention these Batteries charge up to 16.5V each, and continuing giving and giving good amps at 9V? So I am thinking output of 20s pack might not be too terrible to drive all of these 400V motors you see. 

This project may be dropping back into my budget of get'er'done. 

Any helpful thoughts or leads on cheap regen? High efficiency drive trains? Or just a kick in the pants for good 'ol dc forklift motors in series? 

Ps- I am also thinking of solar-EV Limosuines. Cheap doners, krunkxury ride, and long enough for the solar panels required :E)

Really, if I can get a prototype made, I want to build an EV upcycling business around these Batteries!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Meni Menindorf said:


> Something has come up which I am interested to discuss with all you creative people. I have been Reconditioning lead acid batteries, and i am totally amazed by the results! I follow this recipe to a T, and make enough solution to fill as many car Batteries as I want. How to recondition a car battery at home
> 
> The cost in materials is about $5.50/battery. But what's really amazing is that by all my observable means (I should really get something to measure amps i/o) these batteries seem to far outperform the lead acid they once were. They seem to perform more like a NiFe batterey in terms of their voltage response curve and temperature during heavy charging (a lot cooler than lead-acid!). I would rough guesstimate that these are out performing a new deep cycle by 4:1.
> 
> Did I mention these Batteries charge up to 16.5V each, and continuing giving and giving good amps at 9V?


Epsom salts are a hydrate of magnesium sulphate. Lead-acid batteries use sulphuric acid as the electrolyte. When used to dissolve sulphate deposits magnesium sulphate is more effective than, for instance sodium sulphate. Any sulphate provides the sulphur needed for the battery to form sulphuric acid in the electrolyte as the battery is charged.

So magnesium sulphate hydrates (such as Epsom salts) can be used to recondition a battery, but the end result is still a lead-acid battery with the same operating voltages as before. The erosion of the plates by sulphation and later attack by the magnesium sulphate may create a rougher plate surface meaning more surface area and performance more like a typical starting battery than a deep-cycle battery. It would be interesting to see the results of testing the capacity of the reconditioned batteries.


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## Meni Menindorf (Mar 17, 2018)

Ok, so I finally bought a motor for this project! It's not what I expected but I found a great deal, so I am hoping I can find some way to make this work. 

I have a Ford Siemens, pv5133-4ws20, 250V AC 3-phase motor. I believe it's something like a 60kw motor, designed for a pick up truck. 

I found this site, where it seems they have paired this motor with a Solectria 445TF


Azure Dynamics (Solectria) 445TF UMOC Controller Testing | BMP Enterprises Projects



I notice the same controller for sale here on eBay:








Solectria Motor Controller UMOC445TF 250 volt controller three-phase AC | eBay


It’s up to you, to check with your local dealer or other sources to make sure the item you’re purchasing is the right fit and is compatible to your needs.



www.ebay.com





Seem like a good fit, and good deal? I am thinking about jumping on this controller too...

Also, I am wondering about the "inverse-shaft" on this motor... Instead of a drive shaft, there's a hollow drive tube spinning in the center of this thing... What's going to be the best approach to get traction to the wheels? Some kind of transmission or transaxel? Would it be crazy to install this right between the back wheels, get the axel inserted in and turn the whole axel directly? Is this insane? 

I am considering making the vehicle a hybrid electric... Powering the back wheels with the electric, and leaving all the petrol stuff intact to drive the front wheels. This way if I needed to charge, I could put the eMotor in regen and just drive it with the gas and charge at the same time. Also, because this Ford motor might be a bit underpowered at times, I could engage the petrol at the same time if I needed too~. I remember hearing about this idea for a hybrid somewhere on this forum.... Good idea? Or not as simple as it sounds...?


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## Macguru (Apr 12, 2020)

Very interesting project. 
For me as a semi-trained engineer AS degree and little experience using it outside of technical repairs.. I think you cannot make an RV fully electric outside of very low mileage use. 

A hybrid makes the most sense. The chevy volt comes to mind as it's power is sufficient when it counts.. up hills etc. 
You don't have to reinvent the wheel as much. Getting it to fit in front (or as a rear pusher?) is another story. And where to hide the battery pack with will then be both your coach battery pack and truly efficient hybrid generator for making 120 volts for emergency home use during brownouts or while camping. Any hybrid is a great generator due to it cycling on and off on battery only about 45 minutes out of every hour depending on draw loads. Such a setup would give you 70mpg for the first 15-25 miles or so off the battery.. and maybe around 35mpg thereafter without running out of charge ever. And to get regeneration on such a heavy vehicle will be a huge savings in fuel over the stock setup. 

So you definitely want to keep the ICE.

Another solution I like is due to how I replace prius batteries for $50 after dumping the old one on ebay.. That being to do exactly as winnebago did and take a Toyota Highlander hybrid and cut it behind the front doors and mate it with the body of the coach and it's existing rear frame. Welding is old science after all. That's a serious rig with about 30mpg after all that and boy.. they run forever with little work needed.


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## Macguru (Apr 12, 2020)

brian_ said:


> I think the Leaf parts are only a solution for the master cylinder, not for the disks, calipers, & pads (front) and drums, wheel cylinder, & shoes (rear).
> 
> Adding a vacuum pump probably is simpler. I don't know how much noise it would make or how much power it would use.


This is why, after doing much research into piecemealing EV components into my Rialta and the Lesharo my friend ended up giving away to the scrap yard.. I realized EV's are only for commuter use for two reasons. One being that the average RV sees 2-4k miles per year and the average commuter sees 20k. So the cost of the ev conversion never gets returned. Even if you think you will be driving a lot. only musicians and salespeople do really in my experience. I could be wrong but the other reason is this: An RV really needs to be able to refill or keep going if you run out of charge. So a hybrid makes tons more sense. In particular the amazing chevy volt. 

Then you get to realizing how hard it really is to even convert say a Rialta into a turbo diesel with the exact same frame it was designed to go into.. petrol gas eurovan to diesel European grey market sourced eurovan conversions are not that easy to do.. or maybe that guy Noah on ROGA Facebook group made the mistake of going too new and keeping the years the same. Still, it was all VW same model just three years newer. Even with a team of engineers at his work.. it took a year to do. 

So much easier to weld a volt or maybe closer in size, Toyota RAV4 or highlander hybrid onto these Rv's in the exact same way that winnebago did with the Renaul/VW front ends. And forget towing unless you really cool the tranny.Rialtas are worthless without a$250 tranny cooler add on radiator up front. easy enough job to do.but the Toyotas are reliable. just monitor the tranny oil temps or it will die so fast you won't believe it. I've seen one go in 10k miles doing the mountains of Alaska. 

But I saw you got the motor already. 
Why not follow the EV West model of doing such kits? Hmmm hard to say it fits here.


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