# [EVDL] Where would you go for this? The next step in my Charger saga.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It has now been about ten weeks since I set out on this EV Trek. I have my
S10 functionally complete and ready to go. I set out on this adventure,
spent my money and built the truck - now I NEED to start driving it.
I've had real good luck finding used parts, most of them on ebay, and I am
well under my original projected budget. That said, I have been struggling
with my charger. Because of my limited but growing understanding, I have
been asking questions about my HWC4-144-8amp charger.

It is now apparent that it simply isn't putting out anything, it shows the
pack voltage, but does not charge. Seeking service, I have emailed each of
the Parts Suppliers who sell this charger, but none have said they will
service it (I did, after all, buy it on ebay). I bought it from a seller who
said he needed a charger which he could plug into his 110 volt mains. (This
one is for 220 supply.)

My two part question now is:

1) Having a non-functional battery charger, (I paid about $300 with
shipping) Where would you go to find a repair shop? All manufacturer info
has been removed from the included instruction sheets.)

2) What is your best recommendation for an economical replacement for my 144
lead acid flooded pack? I am open to new or used, but my budget is at the
point where I need something that works, but funds are close to depleted.

Thank you in advance - your advice is always good for me.
Bob

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Bob;

The old "Who will fix my charger" delema! Like my K and W I had in the 
Sentra. Fortunately I DID find the K in K and W to fix it, he sorta came out 
of retirement and replaced the intermittent board. Happy Ending.But IF ya 
wanna get the car running again, MAYBE ya can find a 240 volt variac? A 
simple bridge rectifyer chip, a volt and amp meter. A sorta Bad Boy, but it 
WILL get ya back on the road. After awile you will get good at babysitting 
it, how much ya used, etc. You can dial in just a few amps for a long over 
nite or build a fan into it and crank it up to it's full rating?A battery 
charger shouldn't stop you from driving. IF you have scene my garage with 
the bench charger I built around a Big Ass Variac, a 18" er!I can crank it 
up to 40-50 amps, charge anybodies EV that stops by. But it is godamn heavy, 
though, but complete with bridhge rectifyer and cooling fan. The "Monster 
Charge"Not really an on board, but more portable than those Magna chargers 
they use with EV-1's and Rav-4's.We have schlepped it on charging trips, 
though.

I always felt that this would be a good biz for an electronic freak to 
get into?Hint Hint .The stuff we use is rather esortoric, the TV repair guy, 
Ha! DO thery fix TV's anymore. You see so many in the dump, nowadaze?A truly 
disposable device!Of course it would involve working , probably without 
prints, as alota our stuff is or getting to be orphen.IF you got good, you 
COULD build us some controllers, chargers, etc. Wide open market waiting to 
be filled! Imagine getting something fixed without MONTHS of "down time" 
Having to buy a replacement while you wait. I have 2 Raptures by DCP in 
circulation, between Dave O. and I, now!It's almost enough to drive ya to 
contacters!

Just a thought.

Bob, other one
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BBrown" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:31 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Where would you go for this? The next step in my Charger 
saga.


>
> It has now been about ten weeks since I set out on this EV Trek. I have my
> S10 functionally complete and ready to go. I set out on this adventure,
> spent my money and built the truck - now I NEED to start driving it.
> I've had real good luck finding used parts, most of them on ebay, and I am
> well under my original projected budget. That said, I have been struggling
> with my charger. Because of my limited but growing understanding, I have
> been asking questions about my HWC4-144-8amp charger.
>
> It is now apparent that it simply isn't putting out anything, it shows the
> pack voltage, but does not charge. Seeking service, I have emailed each of
> the Parts Suppliers who sell this charger, but none have said they will
> service it (I did, after all, buy it on ebay). I bought it from a seller 
> who
> said he needed a charger which he could plug into his 110 volt mains. 
> (This
> one is for 220 supply.)
>
> My two part question now is:
>
> 1) Having a non-functional battery charger, (I paid about $300 with
> shipping) Where would you go to find a repair shop? All manufacturer info
> has been removed from the included instruction sheets.)
>
> 2) What is your best recommendation for an economical replacement for my 
> 144
> lead acid flooded pack? I am open to new or used, but my budget is at the
> point where I need something that works, but funds are close to depleted.
>
> Thank you in advance - your advice is always good for me.
> Bob
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Where-would-you-go-for-this--The-next-step-in-my-Charger-saga.-tp19467361p19467361.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bob,

Do you have a website with information about your S10 conversion? I
would like to see your project, am thinking about the same.

Thanks,
Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of BBrown
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Where would you go for this? The next step in my Charger
saga.


It has now been about ten weeks since I set out on this EV Trek. I have
my
S10 functionally complete and ready to go. I set out on this adventure,
spent my money and built the truck - now I NEED to start driving it.
I've had real good luck finding used parts, most of them on ebay, and I
am
well under my original projected budget. That said, I have been
struggling
with my charger. Because of my limited but growing understanding, I have
been asking questions about my HWC4-144-8amp charger.

It is now apparent that it simply isn't putting out anything, it shows
the
pack voltage, but does not charge. Seeking service, I have emailed each
of
the Parts Suppliers who sell this charger, but none have said they will
service it (I did, after all, buy it on ebay). I bought it from a seller
who
said he needed a charger which he could plug into his 110 volt mains.
(This
one is for 220 supply.)

My two part question now is:

1) Having a non-functional battery charger, (I paid about $300 with
shipping) Where would you go to find a repair shop? All manufacturer
info
has been removed from the included instruction sheets.)

2) What is your best recommendation for an economical replacement for my
144
lead acid flooded pack? I am open to new or used, but my budget is at
the
point where I need something that works, but funds are close to
depleted.

Thank you in advance - your advice is always good for me.
Bob

-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Where-would-you-go-for-this--The-next-step-in-my-C
harger-saga.-tp19467361p19467361.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess the follow-up to this is another question.
I emailed the parts sellers who retail this charger. Only one got back 
to me, and their answer was "We do no service."

Amongst the wealth of information and trained minds of all on this forum 
(I am truly on the outside looking in on that group!),
Is there no-one who can (or is willing to) diagnose and repair a 
charger? It really seems, that as relatively simple the board appears, 
someone with the right training and understanding could do some real 
service here!

If I spend another 700-1000 dollars on a new charger - when it hiccups, 
will it also be unrepairable and "throwaway" electronics?
I understand the digital watch, walkman or TV, they are quite cheap, and 
are throw-away.
But for my money - throwing money counted in hundreds or a thousand or 
more... seems like there should be opportunity for service somewhere?

We have vendors selling equipment with not even the documentation as to 
who made it! (The manufacturer's Contact page was visibly removed/torn 
from my instruction sheet.) And no facility or desire to do repair. I've 
been lucky so far, and everything has worked as paid for. But the first 
thing goes bad, and the simple answer is that "For 870 dollars you can 
have a new...." or "If you don't want another "cheap" one we have one 
for 2700."
Bob Brown




> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Hi Bob;
> >
> > The old "Who will fix my charger" delema! Like my K and W I had in the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I bought a RUSSCO Electric Vehicle SC 18-120/72-156 Charger and have had good
luck. 
List price is $645 
If it malfunctions It can be fixed by sending it to Russco in Oregon. 
I bought the unit with auto shut-off. http://www.russcoev.com
Another popular brand is the Zivan.
Can buy and be repaired here.
http://www.zivanusa.com/index.htm
shred 







> BBrown wrote:
> >
> > I guess the follow-up to this is another question.
> > I emailed the parts sellers who retail this charger. Only one got back
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rich Rudman repairs his own chargers.

Russ Kaufmann repairs his own chargers.

I hear that Brian Klosterman has been known to repair his own chargers, 
though I don't think he builds them any more.

Solectria repairs their own chargers, though I've had them tell me that a 
charger was too old to work on.

Zivan (and I think Elecon) repair their own chargers.

Lester sells parts for their chargers, including the all-important timer 
boards, and carries out repairs at their factory in Nebraska.

Roger can tell you what Delta-Q does, but I suspect you could ship one of 
their chargers back to their Canadian division for repair.

Victor can tell you what he and Brusa do about repairs for their chargers. 
(Victor is their US distributor.) I know that people have shipped chargers 
to Switzerland to have Brusa >modify< them, however. (The customs logistics 
are not much fun, I hear.)

=====

Sidebar :

Several years ago, I bought a cheap "Lights of America" (US-made) 
fluorescent torchiere lamp for my reading room. It quit working after a 
couple of years. I determined that the problem was the electronic ballast. 
When I called the factory for a replacement, they told me they didn't sell 
spare ballasts! The gentleman with whom I spoke told me that it cost 
something to get UL certification for spares, and the budget didn't allow it 
-- so they decided not to sell spares at all, to avoid liabilty problems.

=====

It costs something to provide user support, repair, and spare parts. 
There's a cost to the manufacturer, even if no one ever uses the services. 
Thus some part of that cost has to be built in to the cost of the product. 
The tighter the margin on the product, the less there is to pay for support.

One reason your charger was cheap is that there is no support for it. If 
you are (or know) someone with enough electronics savvy to reverse engineer 
the charger and repair it, that may be OK. Of course, then it's not cheap 
any more -- or maybe I should say, it's then only as cheap as what your time 
(or your friend's) is worth.

Just about every EV hobbyist is looking to save a buck. But in the end, the 
old rule holds. You don't always get what you pay for, but you darn seldom 
get what you DON'T pay for. If you're lucky, the bargain stays a bargain. 
Apparently, you weren't lucky. :-(

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dave,
I thank you and a handful of others for the good comments. You are 
correct in all your observations. I have not been trying, however, for 
the "something for nothing" stuff.
Every component I purchased for my project is currently listed by the 
respected parts vendors on line. I did not purchase every part from 
them, but I did consult their catalogs on line and compare features of 
each component. I did buy at least a few parts from every one I 
consulted. Contactors here, fuses there, lugs at another, etc. But I did 
carefully shop, much as our wives do their groceries. Every one has some 
things more reasonable than others, that's just good shopping.

The charger I purchased: If you go to Beepscom.com, look for chargers 
132-144 volts, it is the very first one they present for $639.00.
When it arrived I took out the instruction sheets - written in rather 
average computer driven language translation between Chinese and English 
- still no real problem.
One switch on the front is marked in Chinese characters - It took 
several weeks, finally got it translated - it is translates to "Regular 
Electricity Flow" and "Irregular Electricity Flow"
The table of contents lists items on pages 1 through 9. Page 9 in the 
contents says "Manufacturers Contacts - page 9" Page 9 has been 
literally torn from the pamphlet.
I did not purchase it from Beeps, but the fellow I bought it from had. 
He sold it because he said he needed a charger to run on 120 volts, this 
one is from 220. Turns out, I guess, it probably didn't work for him either.
Taking off the cover, there is one section on the board where post 
production changes are evident - at half a dozen places, a silk screened 
resister is replaces by 2 resistors on end tied to a mica cap and back 
to the board - apparently it didn't work for them very well either.
I have bought from Beeps, and will purchase from them again. But this 
particular charger ought to be flagged.
I agree 100% - you get what you pay for.

But it never ceases to amaze me the level of self investment is found in 
some (NOT all!) retailers. Perhaps at least half of the time I walk into 
a store and am told, "We don't have it in stock. We can order it and 
have it in 3 days" Well the truth is, I can order it and have it on my 
doorstep in two.
I am thankful for you list of established companies that do stand behind 
their equipment. This is the information that needs to be up front in 
every list/forum/group. Not flaming - just simple reporting the positive 
- These people stand behind their products. Over the weekend I will be 
ordering from one of them.
Bob





> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > Rich Rudman repairs his own chargers.
> >
> > Russ Kaufmann repairs his own chargers.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is a real shame sorry to hear it didnt work out.

This is a real concern for me in that it puts off many noobs
in relying on a few people to keep the whole thing afloat.

We are lucky to have what we have now but many are disappearing
at the wrong time when EVs are becoming more in demand and will
be more so in the future due to petrol prices.

Im been thinking of using some kind of series/parallel type pack with 
contactors or diodes and then 2 commonly available lower voltage 
marine chargers which are easily found and affordable.
Im not sure whether the S/P pack is worthwhile for all applications
as Im after direct drive and its one of the ways it could perhaps
provide better acceleration.

Having common locally avail. off the shelf parts is one way to avoid
dramas and save money but if not implemented well its a hassle. ;(


-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the best bang for the buck for inexpensive dumb charging can be found here.
http://www.batteryservice.com/products_final.aspx?Category=Charger&ModelNumber=SE-1072
Two of them can be used in series to charge a 144v pack. I liked my first one so much that I bought a second. I use two of them on one circuit and a 110volt 20 amp variac based charger on a second circuit in my garage to charge my 96 volt pack at ~30 amps, the same power in as a PFC30 for a whole lot less money.

damon
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Damon I saved this link also for a possible charger option using zener diodes
and couldnt find it recently to show B.Brown. Thanks for the post. Only
smart enough for floodies right?




> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think the best bang for the buck for inexpensive dumb charging can be
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert Brown wrote:
> > I have not been trying, however, for the "something for nothing"
> > stuff. Every component I purchased for my project is currently listed
> > by the respected parts vendors on line... I did carefully shop...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes and no. It has absolutely no smarts at all, but from what I can see, t=
he output voltages have been picked low enough so that leaving the charger =
on, does not damage most lead acid batteries. For instance I have a 24 vol=
t scooter for the kids. I have no problem leaving that hooked up on the 24=
v low setting for days or the 24 volt high setting overnight. The thing I =
really like about these is that they have so many settings they are almost =
as handy as a variac for a general purpose power supply, but unlike a varia=
c they are isolated. In fact, sometimes when I need real fine voltage cont=
rol I use one plugged into a variac. I can get very fine voltage control t=
his way and I do not have to worry about accidently shocking myself. The o=
nly downsides for me is the fact that they only go up to 72 volts (but as I=
mentioned you can buy 2 and hook them in series) and I really do not like =
the clamps that come on them. I just cut them off and add a red 50 amp and=
erson connector which is the connector I have standardized on for all my lo=
w current needs.
=

damon
=

> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:01:47 -0700> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]=
ts.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where would you go for this? The next step=
in my Charger saga.> > > Damon I saved this link also for a possible charg=
er option using zener diodes> and couldnt find it recently to show B.Brown.=
Thanks for the post. Only> smart enough for floodies right?
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the=
go.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi in my dealings with steven/jane -kelly controllers.com with a controller
etc etc in returns .Was steven had me ship to him in round lake ill. i sent
back usps flat rate box along with signature confirmation .Upon arrival [ill
] he had china send me a replacement which usually only took 2 weeks to
receive . Anyhow FYI there products are not of high quality , but they did
replace items .And i got quick response via email /phone from steven li . 
Ps on my kdh kelly controller i still have not determined/found out its
specs are correct yet . lonnie 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee Hart wrote:
>I have never heard of Beepscom.com -- has anyone else on the list?
>They do not come across to me as a "respected vendor".

Beepscom.com and cloudelectric.com are both owned and operated by Steve Cloud.

I won't be doing any character assassination on the EVDL.

I would suggest that you ask well-established EV component vendors
about Mr. Cloud's track record.





> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Robert Brown wrote:
> >> I have not been trying, however, for the "something for nothing"
> >> stuff. Every component I purchased for my project is currently listed
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My mention of beepscom.com was simply that:
1) they list the charger which has been so troublesome to me, and
2) that I have purchased parts from them, and would do so in the future.
My dealings with them has been good. In my search for parts, there were 
several parts for which their price was the best round (comparing exact 
match of part by number with part by number).

It is the charger that is of questionable value, not the vendor. They 
do, however offer no service for it. And since I did not purchase it 
directly from them, I have no expectation that they would offer any sort 
of warranty or guarantee.
Their website actually is well laid out and provides good information on 
most of their product offerings.
Bob


lektwik wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
>> I have never heard of Beepscom.com -- has anyone else on the list?
>> They do not come across to me as a "respected vendor".
>> 
>
> Beepscom.com and cloudelectric.com are both owned and operated by Steve Cloud.
>
> I won't be doing any character assassination on the EVDL.
>
> I would suggest that you ask well-established EV component vendors
> about Mr. Cloud's track record.
>
>
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> I have never heard of Beepscom.com -- has anyone else on the list? They
> >> do not come across to me as a "respected vendor".
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone else have one of these chargers? I wonder how reliable they are
and looking at the Chinese manufacturers website there are not 144 volt
versions. To me they are modified locally.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone else have one of these chargers? I wonder how reliable they are
and looking at the Chinese manufacturers website there are no 144 volt
versions of this blue one. To me they seem to be modified locally.

-----
Except from himself and other fellow men, 
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Where-would-you-go-for-this--The-next-step-in-my-Charger-saga.-tp19467361p19504306.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> I have never heard of Beepscom.com -- has anyone else on the
> >>> list? They do not come across to me as a "respected vendor".
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > Roger can tell you what Delta-Q does, but I
> > suspect you could ship one of their chargers
> ...


----------

