# Soliton 1 controller



## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

albano said:


> Hi! To all,
> 
> As anyone had the Soliton1 controller on the track?


What kind of track? Drag strip? Autocross? Other?

I'm sure someone probably has... or it's probably been simulated.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

TX_Dj said:


> What kind of track? Drag strip? Autocross? Other?
> 
> I'm sure someone probably has... or it's probably been simulated.



Drag strip.

I need to know, cause I need a strong and reliable controller for drag racing.

As I see we can't relies on Zilla, because the production is always on and off.

Albano


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

The Soliton 1, by everything I've seen, is a well designed, properly-engineered controller.

Talk to the manufacturer, they even give you a performance boost with the addition of a special "racing" warranty.

The guys who designed and build that controller are members on this forum.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

albano said:


> Drag strip.
> 
> I need to know, cause I need a strong and reliable controller for drag racing.
> 
> ...


Otmar has fully loaded Z2K's on his shelf. A large number of them for immediate purchase ;-)

Mike


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Hey albano... no one uses a Soliton1 for drag racing, so far as I know. The Z2K still delivers the highest short-term power rating for now; we would only be able to compete with it if the race were longer than 1/4 mile. 

We are currently designing a smaller version of the Soliton1 and are contemplating a larger version. The smaller version (300V/500A) is not really relevant here except to say that we expect it to be profitable very quickly...

In contrast, we suspect the larger version will have a very limited market but know it will be very costly to develop. As of now my estimate is that we might sell 2-4 "megawatt class" versions of the Soliton per year. That doesn't quite justify the development unless we charge a large premium for them (as in, much more expensive than simply buying two Soliton1s!)

So, while there is much talk of wanting a bigger, badder controller than even the Zilla Z2K, there doesn't appear to be much actual buying going of such going on.

Speaking of... hey Mike, are those Z2K's the same 14 that were built last year and featured prominently in this post:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=144641&postcount=4

How many are left?


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Speaking of... hey Mike, are those Z2K's the same 14 that were built last year and featured prominently in this post:
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=144641&postcount=4
> 
> How many are left?


Nope. They are different ones. The ones Otmar is advertising are ones he had built prior to starting in with EVC. They still have the Cafe Electric Logo on them. And if I am not wrong the number of them is >10.

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> We are currently designing a smaller version of the Soliton1 and are contemplating a larger version. The smaller version (300V/500A) is not really relevant here except to say that we expect it to be profitable very quickly...


That seems an odd target. The 500A rating is low, suggesting a low controller price, but the 300V rating is high, and would require a high cell count while allowing higher performance. Is the 300V rating basically an artifact of the Soliton components and design, high voltage being easier/cheaper to achieve than high current?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

And why are you building a larger version of the Soliton when I'm still waiting for my 3 phase AC controller   I know you could sell more than 4 of those a year


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That seems an odd target. The 500A rating is low, suggesting a low controller price, but the 300V rating is high, and would require a high cell count while allowing higher performance. Is the 300V rating basically an artifact of the Soliton components and design, high voltage being easier/cheaper to achieve than high current?


Actually that would be a pretty good combo for a small car or truck even. While the cell count would be higher you could do with lower AH capacity. And with the higher pack voltage than what you put on the motor you should never run the controller at 100% duty cycle. Plus the lower amp draw is easier on the batteries for continued use (more so than with lead acid that exhibit Pukerts effect). I bought my Z1K in the -HV model just so I could do this. And when I had 192V pack in I could make it deliver a full 1000 amps to the motor and while still at relatively low RPM the battery current never got above 500-600 amps.

While I agree that 500 amps may be on the low side for anything other than a put put at 156V, with a 300V pack you could deliver full motor current to the motor and be easier on the batteries. There are benefits to these design parameters. 

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I did see the potential with the higher voltage, I was looking at it more from a cost/marketing aspect. 500A, low cost, is somewhat in contrast with 300V high cell count. Especially if you're one of those who thinks they need a BMS  If you run more, smaller cells, you might.



electrabishi said:


> While I agree that 500 amps may be on the low side for anything other than a put put at 156V


I resemble that remark, as I drive away in my 120 volt 550 Amp Fiero  AC though!


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I resemble that remark, as I drive away in my 120 volt 550 Amp Fiero  AC though!


I know how it is too. There was a period I was running 120V of GC2's in the truck. The batteries themselves were barely good for 400 amps, and i even ran them at 350 amps. It was pretty much a put put 

Mike


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> I know how it is too. There was a period I was running 120V of GC2's in the truck. The batteries themselves were barely good for 400 amps, and i even ran them at 350 amps. It was pretty much a put put
> 
> Mike


Oh yeah but meant to say too, that knowing the truck could be more peppier with just a change in batteries helped me to remember that someday I'd drop a 200AH pack of lithium in there. Then it would be peppier than with the Deka's that would belt out 1000 amps 

So just remember when planning a conversion, or asking a developer to build a new controller. Always ask for more that what you think you'll need. Because I know deep down inside everyone, no matter how fast your conversion is, there will always be a time when you want it to go "a little" faster  I have never heard someone claim they wish their car were just a little slower 

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think our avatars say it all in respect to expected levels of performance


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think our avatars say it all in respect to expected levels of performance


Wow, I didn't think Fiero's had 6 wheels 

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe someday I can have all of them smoking


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

JRP3 said:


> Maybe someday I can have all of them smoking


i'm guessing you mean a fire from applied rotational torque exceeding the frictional coefficient instead of just applying external heat.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That seems an odd target. The 500A rating is low, suggesting a low controller price


Not for a small car, a MC or for a bigger car if you don't care about being able to take off like an oiled lightning at the stop lights. That said it might be on the small side for a big pickup, quite true.



electrabishi said:


> While the cell count would be higher you could do with lower AH capacity. And with the higher pack voltage than what you put on the motor you should never run the controller at 100% duty cycle. Plus the lower amp draw is easier on the batteries for continued use (more so than with lead acid that exhibit Pukerts effect).


There's that, too. And of course, a 300 Volt pack could easily provide suitable anode voltages for a class A valve amp with suitable output power for a car stereo, making it possible to finally have GOOD sound quality in a car!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> Nope. They are different ones. The ones Otmar is advertising are ones he had built prior to starting in with EVC. They still have the Cafe Electric Logo on them. And if I am not wrong the number of them is >10.
> 
> Mike


Hmmm... if the market is honestly 10 or more a year then this is not nearly as Quixotic a product for us to develop. 




JRP3 said:


> And why are you building a larger version of the Soliton when I'm still waiting for my 3 phase AC controller   I know you could sell more than 4 of those a year


The hardware design for the AC controller is actually easier than it is for the DC... the software, however, is - no exaggerating - at least an order or magnitude more difficult. 

In fact, it is a monumental enough task for Qer that we are seriously considering ponying up the $22k for the Mathworks simulation package to be able to develop the motor control part of the code with models, rather than laboriously convert the vector and torque control field equations into C code.

Not to distract (too much) from the subject at hand...


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hmmm... if the market is honestly 10 or more a year then this is not nearly as Quixotic a product for us to develop.


I didn't mean to imply anything about the market. You'll have to do that yourself ;-) I think the market "could" be 10 or more a year though for any controller that will stand up to abuse and are produced and available for folks to buy. My experience with the 3 Zillas I've bought, while not painful like it is right now at this moment, was still pretty rough for me to wait. However I am glad I did because the product is solid. So if people will "wait" for a solid product, think how many will jump when one is readily available 

Mike


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Qer said:


> There's that, too. And of course, a 300 Volt pack could easily provide suitable anode voltages for a class A valve amp with suitable output power for a car stereo, making it possible to finally have GOOD sound quality in a car!


That and they would make good heaters too, to solve that problem in cold climates. So you wouldn't really be "wasting" power as heat if you were getting some good tunes out of it. Kinda increases the efficiency calculation a little eh? 

Not that I would know anything about any of these concepts 
Tube amps

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> i'm guessing you mean a fire from applied rotational torque exceeding the frictional coefficient instead of just applying external heat.


Yes that would be the preferred method. Some work with Photoshop is probably the most likely path.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Qer said:


> Not for a small car, a MC or for a bigger car if you don't care about being able to take off like an oiled lightning at the stop lights. That said it might be on the small side for a big pickup, quite true.


I'm thinking of the available motors too. Not many that would be used in a small car can deal with more than 192 volts if that but they would benefit from more than 500 amps for the increased torque. I guess you're targeting the Curtis market with this so if your continuous output beats them, you have better features, and the price is right, it might work out. There just seems to be a void in the market between 500 and 1000 amps.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> In fact, it is a monumental enough task for Qer that we are seriously considering ponying up the $22k for the Mathworks simulation package to be able to develop the motor control part of the code with models, rather than laboriously convert the vector and torque control field equations into C code.


 Probably can't find that on a Torrent site...


> Not to distract (too much) from the subject at hand...


At least we're still talking about a controller.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It's just a hunch but I think the market for "megawatt" controllers will grow. When (steet-oriented) electric drag racers finally, and consistently, cross the ten second barrier I think it will bring in new players. There's just something about a ten-second, street-legal, car. If we ever get into the nines, there should be a LOT of interest. A big part of the charm will be in the fact that it has the ability to putt around on the street with the same powertrain - like a turbo ICE powertrain. Some of those are in the $30-50K range just for the twin-turbo IC engine, so I don't think a preminum price tag for a serious controller would be an issue. I believe the top EFI controllers are in the $5-6K range.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> We are currently designing a smaller version of the Soliton1 and are contemplating a larger version. The smaller version (300V/500A) is not really relevant here except to say that we expect it to be profitable very quickly...


That sounds interesting.
It would be good for those who just want a reliable day to day drive without pushing too many limits I guess.
Will it look as pretty?
Will it be called Soliton 0.5?


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> It's just a hunch but I think the market for "megawatt" controllers will grow. When (steet-oriented) electric drag racers finally, and consistently, cross the ten second barrier I think it will bring in new players. There's just something about a ten-second, street-legal, car. If we ever get into the nines, there should be a LOT of interest. A big part of the charm will be in the fact that it has the ability to putt around on the street with the same powertrain - like a turbo ICE powertrain. Some of those are in the $30-50K range just for the twin-turbo IC engine, so I don't think a preminum price tag for a serious controller would be an issue. I believe the top EFI controllers are in the $5-6K range.



If you can do a 12.0 on the 1/4 mile you can beat just about anything a guy can go buy off the dealership parking lot.... That IS the benchmark 

(I know we beat ALL of the new Mustang GT500's that came to Alaska off the lot. Except there was one guy that saw fit to after market some mods that put him in the low 12's just faster than us) 

And certainly the same controller that can do that can handle daily driving and likely be all that more robust for it 

Mike


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That sounds interesting.
> It would be good for those who just want a reliable day to day drive without pushing too many limits I guess.
> Will it look as pretty?
> Will it be called Soliton 0.5?


Prove it on the race track!!! If it wins on Sunday it Sells on Monday!! 
That ain't nothing new! (why do you think you have seat belts?)

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Qer said:


> There's that, too. And of course, a 300 Volt pack could easily provide suitable anode voltages for a class A valve amp with suitable output power for a car stereo, making it possible to finally have GOOD sound quality in a car!


Great minds think alike....
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=184808&postcount=220


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Great minds think alike....
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=184808&postcount=220


oops posted this back to the original thread from your link but meant to put it here:



electrabishi said:


> Dude! I'm there with you, lets do a tube controller... although I should mention that the 4MW tubes we were running in the Coast Guard for Loran sites started requiring Leaded glass around the control room to prevent x-Ray contamination :-( Maybe I need to question to the government why I can't grow hair on my head anymore ;-)
> 
> Mike


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

electrabishi said:


> Prove it on the race track!!! If it wins on Sunday it Sells on Monday!!
> 
> Mike


+1 
I agree with you Mike.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

albano said:


> +1
> I agree with you Mike.


I know for a fact its true. Thats where all the features you now see on your cars of the present came from ;-) And thats why a 1985 Toyota Crayola with a 1.0L can beat a stock '65 Chevy pickup with a 283 V8. (although those Rat motors were tough, they didn't come stock with that performance ;-)

Mike


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> Dude! I'm there with you, lets do a tube controller... although I should mention that the 4MW tubes we were running in the Coast Guard for Loran sites started requiring Leaded glass around the control room to prevent x-Ray contamination :-( Maybe I need to question to the government why I can't grow hair on my head anymore ;-)
> 
> Mike



Is it possible to have a valve controller?

I wonder if it would give a warmer and smoother flow of power then a solid state controller?

Soliton Retro?


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Is it possible to have a valve controller?
> 
> I wonder if it would give a warmer and smoother flow of power then a solid state controller?
> 
> Soliton Retro?


Well, 1.) it would be warmer and 2.) the signal would likely not contain 3rd harmonics.... So in answer to your question.... YES!!!

And if you live in Alaska the heat generated would not be wasted ;-) (at least in the winter time)

Mike


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> There just seems to be a void in the market between 500 and 1000 amps.


Problem is that the performance is pretty much based on the available components. Sure, we could build a Soliton 1 with a max pack voltage of 200 Volt and sure we could do it with a current limit of 750 Amps, but it wouldn't be cheaper so what's the point?

The 500 Amp version is pretty much a half Soliton 1. If we'd try to make it handle 600 or 700 Amps instead of 500 Amps the price tag would increase to a level where there's no point in making it 'cause noone would buy it.



Woodsmith said:


> Is it possible to have a valve controller?


Uh. Sure. If you want to pay a factor ten (at least) more, get a fraction of the S1-power and cut your range in half or so, sure. Sounds good? Want to preorder?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Qer said:


> The 500 Amp version is pretty much a half Soliton 1. If we'd try to make it handle 600 or 700 Amps instead of 500 Amps the price tag would increase to a level where there's no point in making it 'cause noone would buy it.


Makes sense. I guess that's why there is a void between 500-1000, if you're going to go much above 500 might as well go to 1000.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Makes sense. I guess that's why there is a void between 500-1000, if you're going to go much above 500 might as well go to 1000.


All this talk about tube amps, harmonics, etc... makes me think about RF theory somewhat... wherein, if you use a linear amp to boost your TX signal, you will need considerably more power to reach just a little further, one must weigh their options of how far they really wish to talk vs. how much they can justify spending for that ability.

Of course the FCC cuts you off as a HAM, but the principle still applies for corporate broadcasters.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

All I have to say about the 500 amp controller:

Wazangahhhh! 

Do you have ANY estimates, even relatively remote hints, of possible selling price? I've been gathering info and possible options for a motorcycle, and this Soliton 0.5 would totally be the ticket. There's this nice 30kW cont, 60kW max 10kg motor from those Slovakian sailplane guys ... did I say 60kW max? 

Now, those CNT lithium batteries, come hither ...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ewert said:


> ...
> Do you have ANY estimates, even relatively remote hints, of possible selling price? I've been gathering info and possible options for a motorcycle, and this Soliton 0.5 would totally be the ticket. ...


Yep - we were thinking of small cars, of course, but also motorcycles and other less-common applications like boats, ultralight airplanes, etc.

Retail price obviously has yet to be determined, but we are aiming for the Curtis 1231C (~$1500) but determined to keep it under $2000. So, somewhere between those two prices is the goal.

No estimate on pricing for the racing controller, yet, but I will say there is little incentive for us to beat the Z2K both in performance AND price. Between those two, there is more incentive to beat it in performance, since the natural market for such a product is, by definition, "less sensitive to price, very sensitive to performance". We like those people because making stuff for cheapskates is never rewarding.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...Between those two, there is more incentive to beat it in performance...


Now you're talking like a racer!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> No estimate on pricing for the *racing controller*, yet, but I will say there is little incentive for us to beat the Z2K both in performance AND price. Between those two, there is more incentive to beat it in performance, since the natural market for such a product is, by definition, "less sensitive to price, very sensitive to performance". We like those people because making stuff for cheapskates is never rewarding.


Any estimation for delivery time of the first units? If you need a car that can dump enough current into the controller for beta testing, you know where to find me...


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

TX_Dj said:


> All this talk about tube amps, harmonics, etc... makes me think about RF theory somewhat... wherein, if you use a linear amp to boost your TX signal, you will need considerably more power to reach just a little further, one must weigh their options of how far they really wish to talk vs. how much they can justify spending for that ability.
> 
> Of course the FCC cuts you off as a HAM, but the principle still applies for corporate broadcasters.


... yeah I'd love to have 3dB more power from my controller 

Mike


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

electrabishi said:


> ... yeah I'd love to have 3dB more power from my controller
> 
> Mike


6 Db(a) might be a wee bit better


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Any estimation for delivery time of the first units? If you need a car that can dump enough current into the controller for beta testing, you know where to find me...


We need to roll out the 0.5 model first to help fund the development of both the dragster/school bus eek and AC models. We've noticed that is very easy for other people to spend our money on this stuff... 

That said, we're aiming to start on the prototype a little later this summer. We would greatly prefer beta testers that already have a Z2K and that aren't too far away from us here in central Florida. In-house "alpha" testing, when things are mostly being blown up on purpose, will either be done with a dyno or a purpose-built vehicle (not totally kidding about the school bus thing).



electrabishi said:


> ... yeah I'd love to have 3dB more power from my controller
> 
> Mike


If your log files look anything like the others I have received so far, then what you really need is 3dB more power from your _battery_ pack!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> and AC models.


#1 priority of course.
 I knew you'd give in eventually. Welcome to the dark side  Any hints on the performance level you're targeting? I know these HPG/HPEVS motors would really wake up with 700 peak amps and at least 144 volts. I assume you'll be aiming higher on both?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> We need to roll out the 0.5 model first to help fund the development of both the dragster/school bus eek and AC models. We've noticed that is very easy for other people to spend our money on this stuff...


I don't know if this one was pointed at me. I wouldn't have any benefit from beta testing you controller. I would be even willing to pay for the device after it's finished...



Tesseract said:


> We would greatly prefer beta testers that already have a Z2K...


I have a Zilla Z2K EHV with HEPA pedal and a Z1K HV. Two more Z2Ks are about to come in...



Tesseract said:


> ...and that aren't too far away from us here in central Florida...


DHL takes three days to ship something from Croatia to the US or the other way around.

I have a 24 kWh, 360 nominal volt, 3000-3500 Amp capable battery pack with BMS










I don't know if anyone else has such a powerful pack.

I also have a Dual 11" Kostov that will now be modified in the factory and three 11" HV motors.










...integrated RPM sensor...










In car PC for monitoring and data-logging... 



















...racing setup (wheels, suspension, slick tires, roll bar, big brakes). Not just for drag racing...










And we'll take the car all over Europe for racing. 

I don't want to force anything, but I would like to have a more stable controller so I offer help. I think it would be a win-win situation...

Anyway, good luck


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> #1 priority of course.


Sure 



JRP3 said:


> I knew you'd give in eventually. Welcome to the dark side  Any hints on the performance level you're targeting?


I'm appending my interest too 



JRP3 said:


> I know these HPG/HPEVS motors would really wake up with 700 peak amps and at least 144 volts. I assume you'll be aiming higher on both?


Hmm are they so much underrated when paired with Curtis/Zapi/whatever AC low voltage controllers? Sounds strange, they would downsize the motor and make their kits cheaper.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

yarross said:


> Hmm are they so much underrated when paired with Curtis/Zapi/whatever AC low voltage controllers? Sounds strange, they would downsize the motor and make their kits cheaper.


The Curtis 1238-75 120V 550A controller is the largest, most affordable, controller they can find at the moment. Next step up seems to be a custom $8K controller, more than the whole system costs. We don't need another AC system no one can afford.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I don't know if this one was pointed at me. I wouldn't have any benefit from beta testing you controller. I would be even willing to pay for the device after it's finished...


Nah, I wasn't singling anyone out, rather, I was just saying that it is, in general, very easy for someone else to tell us to make an even more powerful controller than the Soliton1 because they don't have to worry about how much it will cost to design and test it, or who, in the end, will actually but it!



CroDriver said:


> I have a Zilla Z2K EHV with HEPA pedal and a Z1K HV. Two more Z2Ks are about to come in...


Yep, you have certainly given lots of money to the old dinosaur factory... 

Not that we take that personally or anything. Ok, maybe just a little bit. 



CroDriver said:


> DHL takes three days to ship something from Croatia to the US or the other way around.


I mainly like the beta testers to be close by just in case I need to drag a bunch of test equipment over to diagnose any goofy bugs that pop up. These would mainly be minor problems with the hardware and code - alpha testing is supposed to root out any problems in the power stage - which are often the result of interactions with the vehicle. Taking the beta controller out and sending it back to me often results in it working just fine on the bench, which causes both me and the beta tester lots of frustration (I assume the beta tester had a legitimate reason for yanking the controller out of the car in the first place!)



CroDriver said:


> I don't want to force anything, but I would like to have a more stable controller so I offer help. I think it would be a win-win situation...


The best way to help is to buy from those companies that are bringing out new products and trying to advance the state of the art. Will there be the occasional stumble along the way - maybe - but that is the price of progress. The Zilla is a great controller, of that there is no doubt, but it was designed back in the 90's and technology has moved on quite a bit since then! Heck, when I designed the Soliton1 there was just one IGBT module manufacturer with just one module that was up to the task and now there are two manufacturers and multiple modules that can be used in this application! Good times, but only if you are willing to try new stuff out (that applies to both the controller designer as well as the customer)!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The Curtis 1238-75 120V 550A controller is the largest, most affordable, controller they can find at the moment. Next step up seems to be a custom $8K controller, more than the whole system costs. We don't need another AC system no one can afford.


We can probably make a 200kW inverter that costs 50% more than a Soliton1. Except that unless we can sell at least 1000 units per year we have little incentive to do so. The hardware design isn't too bad - indeed, it's actually easier than the DC controller in some respects since the power electronics industry is mainly geared towards VFDs - but the software will be brutal. We need to buy a full mathematics simulation software package - like Matlab, which "only" costs $22,000  - to be able to generate the core motor control code without using a chip manufacturer's libraries (which are almost always aimed at constant speed applications, rather than constant torque, anyway). Gotta sell a lot of controllers, or otherwise make an obscene amount of profit from each one, to pay back just the cost of the simulation software!

I have to say, quite a few of you act as if you are _entitled_ to a controller that is as cheap as something produced by an OEM cranking out quantities in the millions per year, and just as reliable. EVs, especially DIY EVs, just aren't even remotely close to benefiting from those kind of volumes (or R&D budgets!)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> We can probably make a 200kW inverter that costs 50% more than a Soliton1.


That sounds reasonable, though 200KW is probably overkill for most applications. How about 100KW for half that price?  I know, I know.


> but the software will be brutal. We need to buy a full mathematics simulation software package - like Matlab, which "only" costs $22,000  - to be able to generate the core motor control code without using a chip manufacturer's libraries (which are almost always aimed at constant speed applications, rather than constant torque, anyway).


I thought there were options for both in most VFDs. The Curtis allows you to choose between speed and torque. I guess you're saying the torque parameters are set by the drive manufacturer and not the chip manufacturer?


> I have to say, quite a few of you act as if you are _entitled_ to a controller that is as cheap as something produced by an OEM cranking out quantities in the millions per year, and just as reliable.


Well of course. Now start making them and stop complaining.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ... I thought there were options for both in most VFDs. The Curtis allows you to choose between speed and torque. I guess you're saying the torque parameters are set by the drive manufacturer and not the chip manufacturer?


No, what I am saying is that the example code provided by the DSP chip manufacturers is invariably aimed at controlling the motor's speed, not its torque. You are left to come up with the code for doing that yourself, which is what all of these VFD manufacturers have done. The lone exception - that I am aware of - is STMicroelectronics, for their ARM processors. We don't want to use the STM products for other (technical) reasons and not only is the code not very portable, the license for the code prohibits using it on another manufacturer's chips. That may not matter to some open source project but it very much matters to us.



JRP3 said:


> Well of course. Now start making them and stop complaining.


Let me put it another way.... I estimate it will take 4000 man hours to develop an ac controller from scratch. That's not counting the cost of materials which, frankly, is peanuts compared to the labor involved. I know you guys think I should work for free, or donate all of my time to some open source project, but, unfortunately, my mortgage, utilities, etc., can't be paid with the goodwill and kudos I might receive from such selfless devotion.

Besides, I'm a filthy capitalist pig


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll throw you some extra "rep" points  Did you ever consider contacting the HPEVS guys? They've been looking for a higher power controller than the Curtis for their motors for a few years. Might get some guaranteed volume from them.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jeffrey, I completely understand you... These cheap bastards (just kidding, NHF   ) don't know how much money it takes to develope something and what risk is involved for someone who does.

A pity that EVnetics is so far away, I'm sure we would do lots of things together if we where closer. Such ventures can't be handled exclusively via mail... The AC motor/controller system we're working on is being developed with help of an German company. A four hour ride and I'm there and see what's going on.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> No, what I am saying is that the example code provided by the DSP chip manufacturers is invariably aimed at controlling the motor's speed, not its torque.


AFAIK speed control loop is the outermost one, and beneath lays torque control loop. Just drop unneded loop and hook up into setpoints for torque control 



Tesseract said:


> Besides, I'm a filthy capitalist pig


Fortunately.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Such ventures can't be handled exclusively via mail...


They can't? Um. Jeffrey, we might have a problem here...

Or perhaps we're saved by the fact that we use Skype instead?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Qer said:


> They can't? Um. Jeffrey, we might have a problem here...
> 
> Or perhaps we're saved by the fact that we use Skype instead?


 Some would say "pwned" 

OK, it's possible, but not my way of doing things... Jeffrey, you missed the chance to visit Sweden


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Hmmh I did have a notion that one of you Soliton people were from Europe. Any chance you could get a retailer within the EURO zone so would not need to hassle thinking about customs, taxes etc. for us EURO area guys? Or do you have one? (I think I tried to check and didn't find one, was there one in Bulgaria but that is not within the "no extra customs or tax problems" zone)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...Did you ever consider contacting the HPEVS guys?...


Good idea - will do - though we are, of course, aiming for much higher power than you can get out of an AC50... more like what you can get out of three or four of them!?! 



CroDriver said:


> A pity that EVnetics is so far away...


Skype really does make this sort of stuff possible. After all, the Soliton1 was designed this way.



yarross said:


> AFAIK speed control loop is the outermost one, and beneath lays torque control loop. Just drop unneded loop and hook up into setpoints for torque control


Yep - that is correct, but you still need a proper PID speed control loop for maintaining idle (if necessary). And making the speed control loop subordinate to the torque control loop is well beyond my ken - I just design the hardware, you know 

Good observation, though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Good idea - will do - though we are, of course, aiming for much higher power than you can get out of an AC50... more like what you can get out of three or four of them!?!


More cooling? The AC50 is limited by the Curtis and HPEV winds them to work with the lower voltage, I think they said it would be good to around 200 volts as is. I assume they can wind them for any voltage.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Why does some of this talk seem familliar?
Tesseract and Qer, You guys have changed youre tone just a bit from last year, but that's good to see!
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36481


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

few2many said:


> Tesseract and Qer, You guys have changed youre tone just a bit from last year, but that's good to see!


Well, it's a different situation now. We now know there are potential motors out there, last year there weren't (as far as we knew) so it makes sense to look into AC now as well as it made sense to not do it a year back.

I still say "Don't hold your breath" though. It'll take time, a lot of time and time is something I seem to have a shortage of...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

few2many said:


> Why does some of this talk seem familliar?
> Tesseract and Qer, You guys have changed youre tone just a bit from last year, but that's good to see!
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36481




The difference now is that a well-known motor manufacturer (can't say - sorry!) proposed to us that they would make an ev-specific motor if we would make an inverter. Sooooo... someone basically called my bluff in that old post! 

Developing an inverter really is a lot of work, though... for the guy writing the software, mainly. I will struggle with the high speed digital junk, like the 100MHz buses for the DSP, but poor Qer has even more work ahead of him... We really need the Soliton Jr. to be enough of a real success so that along with the royalties from the Soliton1 he can - literally - quit his day job... 

Or maybe he secretly likes his Dilbert-esque existence??? Sometimes I wonder about our Swedish Programmer Dude...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Or maybe he secretly likes his Dilbert-esque existence??? Sometimes I wonder about our Swedish Programmer Dude...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sounds as if you need some help. Any chance you could farm out some of the work to university students who might already have access to the software, part of a graduate program or something?


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Hello Chaps!

I am in search of a controller. Do I need a Soliton? How long do they take to arrive? Are then a safe, is costly , bet? 

I put a USD500 deposit on a Zilla 1KLV with EVComponents, and I'm guessing that I'm out of luck on that front. 

My bold step of buying a complete, 144V 300Ah battery set ex China has left me with: 135 of 100Ah prismatic LiFePO4 cells, and a rubbish BMS. Trying to buy a Zilla has resulted in having no controller. Lots of cash burned, needless to say. 

I have an ADC9" fitted to a little Isuzu truck, something like a Chev S10 but a tad lighter. And a lot of cells. That be it. 

I know its a big ask but I need to figure out the rest of this. I need a controller, contactors, vacuum pump and all the other stuff that EVC was kind enough to offer to supply me with, a few days after they deregistered their company. 

Also in need of some way to keep 135 LiFe cells happy. I am no longer tied to the voltage, with the proviso that it musn't cook the ADC9. I could put 100Ah 144V (45 cells)into the Isuzu and build another, HV machine with the remaining 90 cells, a 300V controller perhaps? The cells are only rated to 5C, so its not a lot of grunt. The BMS came with a 300A fuse on a 300Ah pack, so they better not be making 1C. Caveat Emptor. 

PS: Avoid a company called Seiden. If you want photos of their Quality Workmanship and Corporate communication, I am happy to provide it.

Thanks fellas. 

Brett


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

the Brutus said:


> I am in search of a controller. Do I need a Soliton? How long do they take to arrive? Are then a safe, is costly , bet?


Need is a strong word... perhaps want is more appropriate? 

If we are backlogged they might take as long as _1 week_ before shipping out...



the Brutus said:


> Also in need of some way to keep 135 LiFe cells happy. I am no longer tied to the voltage, with the proviso that it musn't cook the ADC9.


How about this... run buddy pairs of 2x65 cells, keeping 5 cells as spares. This will give you a 208V x 200Ah pack that will have some self-balancing tendency. Add Dimitri's Mini-BMS for monitoring (1 for each cell pair) and you are set. This is rather large capacity battery pack... even 2 x 60 cells would give your truck a good 60+ miles of range at real highway speeds...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

the Brutus said:


> I am no longer tied to the voltage, with the proviso that it musn't cook the ADC9.


You can set maximum volt, ampere and kW the controller should pump into the motor, so there's no need to worry. The pack voltage can be anything that's convenient for you up to 342 Volt (max motor current will be limited to 900 Ampere above 310 Volt pack voltage) and the controller will take care of the rest.



the Brutus said:


> The cells are only rated to 5C, so its not a lot of grunt. The BMS came with a 300A fuse on a 300Ah pack, so they better not be making 1C.


Same thing there; you can set the max battery current and also min pack voltage (the controller will start to cut back on throttle when pack voltage drops below that setting) to avoid damaging your pack. If your BMS can send a LVC-signal per cell voltage, the controller can also use that signal to further try to protect your pack.


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## Techie (Sep 19, 2009)

Just a thought I had... Would it be possible to make a controller that doesn't really have software on board, rather be controlled from a tablet pc or something where one could have the tablet run more than 1 controller if desired. might be cool for upgrades and could also function like a dash display with gauges on screen. setup the controller to shut down or regen if AC in the event that the connection with the tablet is lost. Just a thought.


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## the Brutus (Dec 9, 2009)

Hello Chaps!

A question for the those who 'ave got the knowledge about these matters: 

1.It is worth putting a Soliton 1 on a 144V system, or is this a wasteful underutilisation of its capacity? if I could intermittently pull the full 500A at 144V, that gives a better result than a curtis, and is using the unit well under its rating, which is generally good for durability. I can afford it, if it will last. I prefer to buy 1 good product rather than 3 cheapies, even if the cost be the same. 

The nominal rating of the pack i have is over 900A for 30sec, but the BMS unit is undersized, measures only to 500A and has a 300A fuse fitted. I am hoping that the company is just skimping on BMS kit, and not lacking confidence in their cells! I have a test report giving the pack a capacity over 325Ah @ 90A draw, so I may end up going a long ways slowly 

How would I check on the ability of the cells to make higher outputs without harm? they are rated to 5C for 10sec, this is notionally over 1500A. I would enjoy a 900A ride, methinks, if I can do it without frying them. 

Would the unit be efficient at very low load fractions, such as prolonged running at 100A 144V? 

I would like to squeeze the occasional 120Mi trip out of it now and again, and 43KWh should notionally be able to provide that in a 3000lb vehicle. or is this just a bad idea? 

2. Voltage through an ADC9": I have read that they don't enjoy life much over 156V. Is this correct? 

3. Can anyone recommend a supplier to replace the "services" of EVC? I need a bunch of bits and pieces now! I am now a trifle cautious about sending money by wire to the States, once bitten twice shy, as they say. Recommendations? 

Thanks fellas, also cheers for all the replies so far, 

Brett

PS, I know the last items are OT, if anyone could be so kind as to point me towards the right fora that would be appreciated too


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Qer said:


>


Hey Dilbert, need some help? I know how to get out of a cube. Done it three times now, oh uh, four 

Mike


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

the Brutus said:


> Hello Chaps!
> 
> A question for the those who 'ave got the knowledge about these matters:
> 
> ...



1. To the contrary, being easy on a controller will likely prolong its life. If you run a pack voltage of 340V, but limit your motor voltage to 144V, then when you are putting 500 amps into the motor you will only be pulling 212 amps from the batteries (in round about numbers). Thats the way to be easy on the batteries too. So don't look at running a higher pack voltage as losing capacity. 144V on an ADC 9" motor is well enough to get you past highway cruising speeds. Only if you are going to race this beast will you need rated current at rated voltage. So operate less than extremes and it "should" last.

2. Just from what I've heard from all the experts, I wouldn't go much over that on the ADC 9. But you shouldn't need to unless you plan on running over 85mph. I know there are claims of the WarP9's holding over 180V, but I still limit to about 175V....just to stay on the safe side (shut up Jim  )

3. Many of the old *** folks are still here. While we are not yet currently in a position to actually supply what you need, just ask what you are looking for. I have done several conversions myself and helped countless folks through their own. I have sourced all my own components and I know who has what for the best deals. I remember who I did not buy from and I remember who I did buy from. I can say I bought from all the right folks because I got everything I paid for. I shouldn't say the rest of what I want to say though.... so you'll just have to ask for what parts you are looking for 

I offer advice free on this forum, and you can take it for what its worth to you, or if you want private service that costs $$ 

Mike


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

the Brutus said:


> Can anyone recommend a supplier to replace the "services" of EVC? I need a bunch of bits and pieces now! I am now a trifle cautious about sending money by wire to the States, once bitten twice shy, as they say. Recommendations?


The two main EV parts houses I buy from are EVsource and EVparts. I'm sure there are more good EV parts dealers, but I've made multiple successful purchases from both of those shops.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

the Brutus said:


> 1.It is worth putting a Soliton 1 on a 144V system, or is this a wasteful underutilisation of its capacity?


I guess your comment "I prefer to buy 1 good product rather than 3 cheapies, even if the cost be the same" says it all. Before I got involved in this controller project my aim was to convert a car myself and use a Zilla Z1K as the controller because I'd come to the same conclusion. Better to bite the bullet and pony up some real money for a good controller than to be one of the members in the "Controller of the month" club or to never be satisfied with the (lack of) performance. I have a lead foot so Zilla it'd have to be!

Then the Zilla wasn't available anymore (the first time) and I wasn't too happy with the rest of the brands (a whiny Curtis or a unreliable Kelly...) so when T started to talk about building a brand new, state of the art controller I just had to contact him and the rest is history. 

And of course I haven't had the time to even think about converting a car anymore. My spare time has mysteriously just vanished...



the Brutus said:


> The nominal rating of the pack i have is over 900A for 30sec, but the BMS unit is undersized, measures only to 500A and has a 300A fuse fitted.


But even 500 battery Amps will make it possible for you to create some serious tire smoke since the controller converts power to power. 500 [email protected] Volt (just to make sure there's some room for sag here) is 50 kW so as long as motor Voltage is below 50 Volt (like when you start from a stand still) you can still pump out 1000 motor Amps.

Although, I don't have a clue if an ADC 9" can handle it...



the Brutus said:


> I would enjoy a 900A ride, methinks, if I can do it without frying them.


Or you could increase the pack voltage, as Mike was saying. Once again, power in equals power out (minus some losses, of course) so if motor voltage is 150 Volt the motor can never get more than 150 kW (and odds are that it'd blow up before that anyway) so if your pack voltage with sag is 200 Volt the pack current will never be above 750 Amps. If the pack voltage is 250 Volt with sag the current will be max 600 Amps, and so on.



the Brutus said:


> Would the unit be efficient at very low load fractions, such as prolonged running at 100A 144V?


That would be 14.4 kW and if the motor current is 100A it would mean that the losses in the controller would probably be around 200 Watt which is rather close to 99% efficiency. If it's 100 Ampere battery current it would depend on what RPM the motor is running, but let's say the motor Voltage is around 100 Volt, then the motor current will be 144 Ampere and the losses in the controller will climb closer to 300 Watt (or so), and efficiency drops to somewhere around 98%.

(Tesseract can probably whip together more accurate numbers if I'm completely off the scale here )

Typically the controller will be rather efficient as long as you keep the motor running at reasonable RPM's. Efficiency will drop as a stone in both motor and controller the closer to stall you get, which, btw, is why direct drive is so bad for range. Keep the gear box and try to run the motor at it's most efficient range and the losses in the controller won't be a problem compared to the motor anyway. 



electrabishi said:


> Hey Dilbert, need some help? I know how to get out of a cube. Done it three times now, oh uh, four


I'm on my third attempt myself. Hopefully it will be the last one...


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

electrabishi said:


> Hey Dilbert, need some help? I know how to get out of a cube. Done it three times now, oh uh, four
> 
> Mike


I worked in an electronics/ circuit board factory. I only had to escape a cubicle once! Never been back.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Some inspiration for future features:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUmrddqU4N4



Maybe you could play with the pulse frequency to make V8 sounds


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> ...Maybe you could play with the pulse frequency to make V8 sounds


I put in a request for something like that - Tesseract shot me down. 

I didn't ask for V8 sounds, just something interesting and tuneable. BUt hey if it could do what that laser was doing, while moving the vehicle, synchronized with air or hydraulic suspension, you could have a dancing hit for the lowrider market!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I put in a request for something like that - Tesseract shot me down.


Yeah, yeah... I'm a real killjoy, I know. 

Here's a damaged enclosure (bad casting) that we used to evaluate electroless nickel plating. We were only considering it because it is a more reliable finish that is easier to keep clean of grease, fingerprints, etc., but now that we've actually seen it we think it looks pretty sweet.

If the rest of you don't like it, well, too bad, as this is what we're going with for the cast enclosures from now on...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...Here's a damaged enclosure (bad casting) that we used to evaluate electroless nickel plating...


I like it, but would probably opt for clear anodizing on my billet Big Sol! 

I didn't realize you meant electroless when you said nickel plating. I will probably use that on all my bolts.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Here's a damaged enclosure (bad casting)


Hey Tesser,

Yeah, bad casting. They couldn't keep those fins straight 

I'm thinking I need one of these rejects for my eJeep. Crooked fins wouldn't matter on that 

Hey, sorry I missed you at the P of DC. But while you were showing off, my team took a checkered flag. Hey, you really should look into putting a controller on a TTXGP bike. Lots of motors to zorch out there 

major


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

major said:


> Hey, you really should look into putting a controller on a TTXGP bike. Lots of motors to zorch out there


I thought they use BLDC mostly...?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I thought they use BLDC mostly...?


I've only seen the NA group (North American). Ten so far. Maybe half, or a little higher using Agni Brushed Axial PM motors. Maybe one or two a SepEx. And the rest ACIM. No BLDC yet that I am aware of  But WTH do I know? Just snooping around

Hey, glad you're interested. Next race is in Canada, hey.

major


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> ...Maybe one or two a SepEx...


How competitive are the SepEx motored bikes?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> How competitive are the SepEx motored bikes?


Not very. But I cannot say that was the reason


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

major said:


> Not very. But I cannot say that was the reason


Cool, I think I get it. I have to go to a TTXGP race. Sounds like fun.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Cool, I think I get it. I have to go to a TTXGP race. Sounds like fun.


Hope you do  I hope a lot of people do 

So far at least, these events have been part of AMA races. And that has been like 40,000 fans. But few realize that there is an electric race. But I suspect most enjoy the competition. All who stop by the paddock are very interested and supportive.

I'm glad to get the chance to chime in on your thread. Much more exposure than I got on http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ttxgp-race-road-america-45853.html 

Regards,

major


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

major said:


> Hey Tesser,
> 
> Yeah, bad casting. They couldn't keep those fins straight
> 
> ...


What happens, again, when you cram a severe amount of overcurrent through a brushed PM motor??? 

Yeah, those TTXGP guys (gals?) look like they are having way too much fun. It sorta - almost! - makes me miss my old Ducati... up until the point where I realize that these people are way crazier than I am, and so I should leave the riding to them... 

The actual defects in the casting where from excessive porosity and not enough thickness to compensate for the draft - our supplier is trying to minimize the amount of aluminum in the rough cast (for obvious reasons) and apparently went a bit too far... While it's nice that we don't have to "pay" for those castings, it still takes several hours of machining to get to that point (which, of course, far exceeds the cost of the casting). 

We are designing Jr. much more intelligently (or, at least, applying *some* of what we learned thus far) so as to make the casting process "less difficult"...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Does "Jr." really need the expense of a cast enclosure?


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, those TTXGP guys (gals?) look like they are having way too much fun.


The kind of thought I find sobering: What do you do when you become bored of being a professional motorcycle racer?

You guys might want to look into developing for that Agni 95-R (reinforced) motor, since it won TTXGP last year, and is looking more popular this year. 

This apparently also marks the designer, Cedric Lynch, finally getting long overdue recognition. Just the fact that you've made your way to this post is probably enough evidence that you should look him up. His design, invented in 1984, is also used in the Etek, and LMC Perm Motor.


I'm wondering if I could help you folks with design. I've been a professional computer geek for a dozen years, mostly high level programming. I've gotten good at learning. I'm interested in controllers. For something like probably some day getting a substantial discount on a controller.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

deleted...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Does "Jr." really need the expense of a cast enclosure?


Definitely. In fact, it needs it even more than the Soliton1 does.




Darxus said:


> The kind of thought I find sobering: What do you do when you become bored of being a professional motorcycle racer?


You're right... that is a sobering thought...



Darxus said:


> You guys might want to look into developing for that Agni 95-R (reinforced) motor, since it won TTXGP last year, and is looking more popular this year.


Nothing in the code needs to be changed to drive a brushed PM motor with a controller like the Soliton1 - it already sets motor current (torque) proportional to throttle which is the most desirable behavior for traction applications (and while the torque vs. speed curves are different for the two motor types, torque is still proportional to current).

That said, there might need to be some hardware changes to accommodate the lower inductance of a PM motor, and one must pay much more than lip service to the absolute current limit (to avoid demagnetizing the PM field). Given the size of the Agni 95, and where it is most commonly used, the 500A "Jr." version of the Soliton1 would be a much better fit. 



Darxus said:


> This apparently also marks the designer, Cedric Lynch, finally getting long overdue recognition. *Just the fact that you've made your way to this post is probably enough evidence that you should look him up.* His design, invented in 1984, is also used in the Etek, and LMC Perm Motor.


Sorry - not quite sure what you meant by the text I put in bold. I know who Cedric Lynch is and his motor is a real work of art, but it is also an order of magnitude too small to be driven by a Soliton1. Even a Soliton Jr. will be capable of stomping it into a smoking ruin of a carcass if one isn't careful. 



Darxus said:


> I'm wondering if I could help you folks with design. I've been a professional computer geek for a dozen years, mostly high level programming. I've gotten good at learning. I'm interested in controllers. For something like probably some day getting a substantial discount on a controller.


Heh... that was the original deal we made with our programmer extraordinaire, Qer. Not too far into this mess we realized that simply giving him a controller wouldn't even begin to compensate him fairly so now we have allotted a chunk of royalties to him... I say allotted, rather than paid, because the lazy socialist has yet to bother with setting up a bank account so that he can receive his royalties in a fashion that does not upset the Swedish taxing authority... 

That said, Qer is definitely swamped, and we might be interested in subcontracting out certain tasks. Are you familiar with coding in C for AVRs and ARMs (Cortex class, specifically)?


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Are you hiring on site? I can hit the road next week.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> That said, Qer is definitely swamped, and we might be interested in subcontracting out certain tasks. Are you familiar with coding in C for AVRs and ARMs (Cortex class, specifically)?


Lest anyone think otherwise, that quote you are referring to was not actually me. I could not help do anything but mess things up entirely with my coding abilities 

Care to explain why Jr. needs a cast enclosure more than Sr.?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Lest anyone think otherwise, that quote you are referring to was not actually me. I could not help do anything but mess things up entirely with my coding abilities


Your coding abilities are about on par with mine, then... I once got an LED to blink... but had to follow the instructions in a book to get to that point, even...

Oh, and quote is fixed... sorry... 



JRP3 said:


> Care to explain why Jr. needs a cast enclosure more than Sr.?


Volume. Many of you here might not be very interested in the Jr., but as of now there are three "largish" companies that are very interested in something in that power range. We've been given sales estimates by them that range from the cautiously exuberant (?!) to the wildly optimistic, but even if we cut them all by 10x the projected volume will still easily exceed that of the Soliton1.

The stark reality is that not everyone wants/needs/can afford a Soliton1, but simply lopping off one of the IGBT modules doesn't save enough in parts/labor to bring the price down by much.

So the Jr. is being designed from the ground up as a single IGBT module controller with the same engineering philosophy as the Soliton1, but the components will be optimized for that power level, rather than twice that amount. For example, instead of a single specialized (and large!) film capacitor like in the Soliton1, the Jr. will use 3 smaller ones which are available from multiple sources and therefore cost much less. They will still have a total ripple current rating that exceeds the worst case the controller can throw at them, but because they aren't ridiculously oversized for the job the price is about half... Same with the bulkhead terminals - they will have 3/8" diameter studs rather than 1/2" and this minor difference cuts the price in half, too. There's no chance of doing regenerative braking with Jr., so the IGBT module is a chopper instead of a half bridge - that saves 20%. All of this stuff will allow us to make a 500A controller that is just as well-built as its bigger brother yet still make a reasonable profit.

Now, as far as the Big Sol, as Todd has been given to call the 2kA+ version, is concerned we don't expect it to ever be profitable. We're making it anyway, though, and for no good reason except bragging rights....


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ...Now, as far as the Big Sol, as Todd has been given to call the 2kA+ version, is concerned we don't expect it to ever be profitable. We're making it anyway, though, and for no good reason except bragging rights....


Halo product. It's your Corvette, Viper, etc. The family man comes in the showroom, drools over Big Sol,, envisions himself ripping the asphalt up at the drag strip, thens putts away smiling in his Jr-powered sedan. 

At home, when all his family men buddies come to see his new toy, he proudly lifts the hood and explains to them how Jr was built by the same people, and with the same attention to detail, as Jay Leno's Big Sol-powered rocket ship they saw on TV last week! It's a brilliant business model that's been working for over half of a century...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I assume you won't bother with water cooling for Jr.?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Halo product.
> ...
> It's a brilliant business model that's been working for over half of a century...


Yup... and that is exactly why I agreed to go ahead with the Big Sol! Oh, and the Zilla being out of production again didn't hurt, either... (even though Otmar apparently has several years worth of Z2Ks stocked up (in other words, 5-10 of them... )).

There was simply too much competition in the high end of the controller market for awhile there to even think of diverting resources into developing new products.




JRP3 said:


> I assume you won't bother with water cooling for Jr.?


Tsk... why assume such??? It only requires drilling a few holes and tapping them to add water cooling passages, yet water cooling provides an immense benefit to maintaining a high continuous power output. Indeed, given that a Jr. will likely spend more time at 100% motor current than a Soliton1 or Big Sol ever will, it has even more need of water cooling than its bigger brothers.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Sorry - not quite sure what you meant by the text I put in bold. I know who Cedric Lynch is...


"If you (non-specific plural) have come to this page on the internet and do not know who Cedric Lynch is, you will probably be interested."



Tesseract said:


> That said, Qer is definitely swamped, and we might be interested in subcontracting out certain tasks. Are you familiar with coding in C for AVRs and ARMs (Cortex class, specifically)?


Nope, but it sounds like fun.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

TTXGP rules:

http://www.egrandprix.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fluid-based_coolant_systems
http://www.egrandprix.com/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Fluid-based_coolant_systems

Yes, the TTXGP rules are in a publicly editable wiki. I recommend you check it out. Mostly, race organizers are picky about what they will need to clean up after you. Although I'm curious why it would be okay to use synthetic oil for coolant and not antifreeze.


Where are the photos of the Soliton 1 with the cover off? I appreciate the usefulness of a massive heat sink, but.. you're hiding what I find sexy.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

"WaterWetter® will provide the proper corrosion inhibition for all common cooling system metals, including aluminum..."

You might want to mention this in your manual, since antifreeze is not allowed in TTXGP, and Water Wetter is what everybody uses in their ICE radiators on tracks.

I'm assuming the "aluminum-safe coolant" you mention in the manual generally implies antifreeze. 

If there's something else you'd prefer to run as liquid coolant, post to the talk page for the liquid cooling rule.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Why aren't you filling the thing directly with non-conductive coolant?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Where are the photos of the Soliton 1 with the cover off? I appreciate the usefulness of a massive heat sink, but.. you're hiding what I find sexy.


Sigh... As much I would like to show off just how much of an engineering genius I am by posting pics of the Soliton1's guts, that would not be a particularly smart business move. The market for EV motor controllers is quite small (a few hundred total per year, maybe?) and very competitive. It took several prototyping iterations to get to the design we have now and I'd like any competitor to have to go through at least as much pain, effort and expense to arrive at the same conclusions as I have... 



Darxus said:


> "WaterWetter® will provide the proper corrosion inhibition for all common cooling system metals, including aluminum..."
> 
> You might want to mention this in your manual, since antifreeze is not allowed in TTXGP, and Water Wetter is what everybody uses in their ICE radiators on tracks.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you here, but I try to avoid making specific product recommendations in the manual. Also, I think it's safe to say that anyone participating in the TTXGP series would be clued-in enough to know they have to replace the prohibited antifreeze for the races. 

We have not actually tested WaterWetter, either, but I have to say that a controller would be an excellent device to verify the manufacturer's claims since it can dissipate a predictable and repeatable amount of heat. So, I've added "testing WaterWetter to my list of interesting tasks to complete.


----------



## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Sigh... As much I would like to show off just how much of an engineering genius I am by posting pics of the Soliton1's guts, that would not be a particularly smart business move.


Yikes, that is an unfortunate position to be in. I suspect the man and materials hours that your competitors would save would compare unfortunately to the cost of just buying one to look at. 

Is the situation similar with your software? Is that something you can release?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Why aren't you filling the thing directly with non-conductive coolant?


This is definitely an "out in left field" kind of suggestion... what advantages do you see from filling the controller with a non-conductive coolant?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Is the situation similar with your software? Is that something you can release?


You know, the actual controller code is at the moment about 5000 lines of very compact and hand optimized embedded code with all the fat trimmed down to ensure that the microcontroller never run out of CPU-performance or RAM. Then there's about 1200 lines of code for bootloader, uploader, common include files, utilities (like the program that calculates ADC-values for controller temperature and dither frequency table) etc.

I stopped logging the time I've put into the Soliton-project when it went four digits...

You really need me to answer that question?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Yikes, that is an unfortunate position to be in. I suspect the man and materials hours that your competitors would save would compare unfortunately to the cost of just buying one to look at.


So are you saying I might as well just post the pics and design details here, anyway, because all a competitor has to do is buy the controller to find all this out?

Is that not analogous to committing suicide just because your going to die someday anyway??? 



Daxus said:


> Is the situation similar with your software? Is that something you can release?


I'll defer to Qer on this one, but I suspect he is not going to find your request endearing.

EDIT - indeed, it appears he did not...


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> This is definitely an "out in left field" kind of suggestion... what advantages do you see from filling the controller with a non-conductive coolant?


Er, largely because I had not yet looked up the heat conductivity of water, copper, and aluminum. I figured water would be quite a lot better than 0.2% of aluminum. And direct, flowing contact with more of the components.



Qer said:


> You know, the actual controller code is at the moment about 5000 lines of very compact and hand optimized embedded code with all the fat trimmed down


I'm sure this is a shortcoming on my part, but I'm having difficulty grasping how there is that much to program in a controller controller. I'm sure it would have been educational.

I also wonder if it would be worth the free man hours to work with the open source EV controller folks.



Qer said:


> I stopped logging the time I've put into the Soliton-project when it went four digits...
> 
> You really need me to answer that question?


Your perspective is very different from mine. But that question alone makes it clear that you consider the confidentiality of your software important to your profitability, and that's certainly fine.

I've put quite a lot of time into open source software.



Tesseract said:


> So are you saying I might as well just post the pics and design details here, anyway, because all a competitor has to do is buy the controller to find all this out?


Not at all. But I had been thinking that the value a controller manufacturer adds is primarily figuring out which parts go well together, and the convenience of pre-assembly, and I feel like your response somewhat verified that. And it seems like a pretty precarious position. 



Tesseract said:


> I'll defer to Qer on this one, but I suspect he is not going to find your request endearing.


"Endearing"... I hope neither of you found it offensive. I had to ask. I appreciate the work that you have done and are doing.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Darxus said:


> I'm sure this is a shortcoming on my part, but I'm having difficulty grasping how there is that much to program in a controller controller.


Feeping creaturism.

A few examples:

Fetching the throttle input from the ADC-function, convert it to a target current value and report it to the motor control: ~40 lines of code (including #include's etc).

Fetching the throttle input from the ADC-function, convert it to a target current, handling slow current ramp up, limiting for controller over temp, user settings (motor current, voltage and power, max RPM), added fault tolerance, kill throttle when brakes are enabled etc. ~240 lines of code.

Setting up and controlling PWM to get the desired motor current: <100 lines of code.

Setting up and controlling PWM to get the desired motor current, handle quiet mode, dither frequency at low duty cycles (otherwise you might blow the IGBT...) run a PID-loop for idle rpm (good for automatic gear boxes) and so on. ~230 lines of code.

And then there's, of course, the web server: 1400 lines of code...

In the first prototypes of the Soliton we had a rather small flash size, we quickly outgrew it and had to upgrade the micro controller a few times because we kept upping the ante...


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Oh noes, no regen braking for Jr.? =( Any chance at all? No? Regen capability has been a big thing for me in figuring out which parts are possible choices ...

While coasting and predictive driving is easy enough to do, you can't do it in stop-and-go traffic properly. And if you optimize somewhat your rolling resistance and drag, just braking away that kinetic energy will become a bigger part of energy usage. 

Do you foresee any chance of having a regen capable version, I'd definitely pay a bit more if could get regen too.

PS. Mind you, until battery technology improves somewhat I can't build my EV since I require quite a bit of range ... But for me, regen has always been an important issue. Who wants to coast and drive predictively with a sporty motorcycle ...


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

First a general comment, Darxus... I don't mind these sorts of questions at all - in fact I rather enjoy them - but let me make one thing perfectly clear here: I am an unapologetic capitalist. I believe that if you design and build a quality product, sell it at a fair price, and support your customers that you _deserve_ to be well-rewarded (whether you will or not is another story, but at least you've earned that "right"). I will not even begin to argue with anyone on that count. If you don't believe the Soliton1 is worth the price we ask then don't buy one or do your level best to prove your point with an actual product, and not just words on an internet forum. 



Darxus said:


> Er, largely because I had not yet looked up the heat conductivity of water, copper, and aluminum. I figured water would be quite a lot better than 0.2% of aluminum. And direct, flowing contact with more of the components.


Right - I had a feeling this is the direction you were going. Immersion cooling works great when you need to cool thousands of ICs on large PC boards (in a supercomputer, for example). In contrast, IGBT modules consist of many semiconductor dice soldered to a common copper base-plate potted in an arc-suppressant gel inside a plastic housing, so cooling the housing they are in won't add but a tiny fraction to their heat dissipation capability. Certainly not worth the weight, much less the hassle, of employing immersion cooling.



Darxus said:


> I'm sure this is a shortcoming on my part, but I'm having difficulty grasping how there is that much to program in a controller controller. I'm sure it would have been educational.


This is more Qer's bailiwick, but I do know you can't really write the code for something like this in Visual Basic, and while making the motor current proportional to throttle position is the primary function of a motor controller, it is by no means the only function it must perform. It's all those other pesky functions that really start to add up. To paraphrase: a few hundred lines of code here, a few hundred there and pretty soon you are talking real kilobytes.



Darxus said:


> I also wonder if it would be worth the free man hours to work with the open source EV controller folks.


Not in my opinion. I simply don't agree with the all-too-common presumption ascribed to open source projects that a group of amateurs working together can somehow do a better job designing complex hardware or software than one or two professionals working alone. If you think the open source controller is superior to the Soliton1 in any way, I'll be happy to entertain your arguments. 



Darxus said:


> ...I've put quite a lot of time into open source software.


And???



Darxus said:


> Not at all. But I had been thinking that the value a controller manufacturer adds is primarily figuring out which parts go well together, and the convenience of pre-assembly, and I feel like your response somewhat verified that. And it seems like a pretty precarious position.


Interesting... so your asking to see the inside of the controller was, indeed, an attempt at getting what you perceived to be the most valuable bits of our intellectual property for free!?! 

Oddly enough, while my parts selection is somewhat valuable, yes, it's not all that important compared to the pc board and power bus layout, and those are not even remotely as valuable as the actual code that runs the whole shebang. Regardless, we don't give away our core IP for free. If someone goes to the trouble to buy a Soliton1 just to reverse engineer it, well, at least we got a sale out of the deal! 

One thing that is perhaps being overlooked here is that just reverse-engineering the code won't automatically put a competitor on par with us - we have the gestalt, after all, and they don't.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ewert said:


> Oh noes, no regen braking for Jr.? =( Any chance at all? No? Regen capability has been a big thing for me in figuring out which parts are possible choices ...
> ...
> Do you foresee any chance of having a regen capable version, I'd definitely pay a bit more if could get regen too.


Regen braking with a series motor requires, at a minimum, a set of reversing contactors, which (unless you go with the cheap Chinese knock-offs) would cost a substantial fraction of the Jr.'s price.

And regen still can't be used with an advanced motor without destroying it, pretty much instantly. We haven't yet figured out a way to dodge that liability bullet, and that is by far the biggest obstacle. Well, regen with a series DC motor is also technically challenging, but dealing with angry people that instantly destroyed their motor and then blame our controller for it is not a prospect we much relish... Any constructive suggestions on that front are welcome, but they have to be realistic. Saying "make the customers sign a waiver first" is not constructive, btw.

EDIT: you should realize that in the real world - with ac controllers - regen maybe adds 10% to the range. If you can't get the range you need with batteries alone, regen is unlikely to make up the difference. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it. Also, strong regen braking in any vehicle is potentially very dangerous, especially if the road is slippery from snow, ice, rain, mud, etc.. It's especially dangerous on a motorcycle.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Qer said:


> Feeping creaturism.


Neat, thanks.

I once wrote a program that was pure feature bloat. It made it into a print magazine, the February 2001 issue of Linux Journal (issue 82). http://www.chaosreigns.com/code/dlkern/
At the time it was kind of obnoxious to manually download new Linux kernel source, and there it began. 14 command line flags, three (automatically detected) download methods, one of which wasn't possible....



Qer said:


> And then there's, of course, the web server: 1400 lines of code...


I had suspected that one 
Crazy... technological advancement. I'm still feeling like you should be programming in assembler or logic gates.




ewert said:


> Regen capability has been a big thing for me in figuring out which parts are possible choices ...


Why? I got the impression there was very little (electricity) to gain from regen.



ewert said:


> ...I require quite a bit of range ...


How much, how often?




Tesseract said:


> First a general comment, Darxus... I don't mind these sorts of questions at all - in fact I rather enjoy them...


I'm very glad to hear it.



Tesseract said:


> I am an unapologetic capitalist. I believe that if you design and build a quality product, sell it at a fair price, and support your customers that you _deserve_ to be well-rewarded


I do not disagree with you at all. Although I think the words "deserve" and "right" might be a bit strong. Quality and fair price don't obligate anyone to compensate you for all your expenses. Perspectives on entitlement vary interestingly.



Tesseract said:


> If you don't believe the Soliton1 is worth the price we ask then don't buy one or do your level best to prove your point with an actual product, and not just words on an internet forum.


I agree again. And I have no reason to believe that the Soliton1 isn't worth your price. For people who don't enjoy spending a great deal of time and money blowing up electronic bits.




Tesseract said:


> Not in my opinion. I simply don't agree with the all-too-common presumption ascribed to open source projects that a group of amateurs working together can somehow do a better job designing complex hardware or software than one or two professionals working alone.


I have had too much contact with reality to presume that. Possible, but not appropriate to assume.



Tesseract said:


> Interesting... so your asking to see the inside of the controller was, indeed, an attempt at getting what you perceived to be the most valuable bits of our intellectual property for free!?!


Hmm. Yes. But that was not a direct causal relationship.
I spend a lot of time drooling at pictures like these: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=179954&postcount=265
So sexy.



Tesseract said:


> Oddly enough, while my parts selection is somewhat valuable, yes, it's not all that important compared to the pc board and power bus layout, and those are not even remotely as valuable as the actual code that runs the whole shebang.


Neat, thanks. It was crazy to see a picture of an oscilloscope showing so much improvement on a controller just from adding a wire to shorten a ground path.



Tesseract said:


> Regardless, we don't give away our core IP for free. If someone goes to the trouble to buy a Soliton1 just to reverse engineer it, well, at least we got a sale out of the deal!


I don't know if it can be done, but you might want to look into making it more difficult to download and decompile your software. That part would certainly be covered by copyright, but....



Tesseract said:


> One thing that is perhaps being overlooked here is that just reverse-engineering the code won't automatically put a competitor on par with us - we have the gestalt, after all, and they don't.


Mm. Nobody else is competent to implement my own dream.

Although given a finished product, the Chinese are scary like that.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As has been explained regen on series DC through the motor simply isn't worth the hassle and potential damage. Adding an external alternator or generator is possible. As to the benefits, I feel regen simply makes for a better driving experience, beyond the actual range increases. Instead of trying to coast up to a stop, possibly delaying and annoying traffic around you, you can drive like a normal person and still recover some energy. In hilly areas where I live I probably get more than 10% return from regen. It's also very easy to modulate the amount of regen with the throttle, you can even coast with a neutral throttle position.


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Darxus said:


> ...I do not disagree with you at all. Although I think the words "deserve" and "right" might be a bit strong. Quality and fair price don't obligate anyone to compensate you for all your expenses. Perspectives on entitlement vary interestingly...


This thread is beginning to remind me why I sold my shop... 

They're not suggesting that a collection plate be passed around the world and people feel obligated to reward them for their accomplishment.

Capitalism = If I accomplishment something of value to someone else, I deserve (United States foundation stone) and have the right (according to the law of the land, supported by the judicial system) to be compensated fairly *for that person taking advantage of my hard work!* Geez!

It's why people move to democratic, capitalistic, societies. They obtain, by citizenship, the right to prosper from their contributions *when others take advantage of them*. If no one does you have the right to be poor, whether you deserved it or not. The system works.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> The system works.


The concept is sound, how well the system is actually working is still open to debate


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Regen braking with a series motor requires, at a minimum, a set of reversing contactors, which (unless you go with the cheap Chinese knock-offs) would cost a substantial fraction of the Jr.'s price.
> 
> And regen still can't be used with an advanced motor without destroying it, pretty much instantly. We haven't yet figured out a way to dodge that liability bullet, and that is by far the biggest obstacle. Well, regen with a series DC motor is also technically challenging, but dealing with angry people that instantly destroyed their motor and then blame our controller for it is not a prospect we much relish... Any constructive suggestions on that front are welcome, but they have to be realistic. Saying "make the customers sign a waiver first" is not constructive, btw.
> 
> EDIT: you should realize that in the real world - with ac controllers - regen maybe adds 10% to the range. If you can't get the range you need with batteries alone, regen is unlikely to make up the difference. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it. Also, strong regen braking in any vehicle is potentially very dangerous, especially if the road is slippery from snow, ice, rain, mud, etc.. It's especially dangerous on a motorcycle.


I have to disagree, smooth variable regen on a motorcycle is not especially dangerous and in fact is less dangerous than using only the rear brake. I have been using variable regen with my BLDC motorcycle products for almost 2 years. The thing I like about regen is if the wheel stops spinning due to some slippery surface then the regen stops, hence no braking force. This at some level is anti lock in principle. I agree regen is worthless at extending range and have never seen more than 5% return but my customers love the feel of regen and makes the bike have a down shift feel that keeps the connection between ICE bikes and E-bikes. Also Regen extends the life of the brakes. 

So in conclusion 
Regen on a motorcycle is not dangerous if properly implemented 
Regen does not extend range
Regen does improve the riding experience for my customers
Every customer asks for it and the customer is always right (as long as its safe)

Mark


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Crazy... technological advancement. I'm still feeling like you should be programming in assembler or logic gates.


Well, even though it's good to have absolute control over the microcontroller in a real time environment, the readability of assembler is pretty non-existing. I mean, this is how you multiply two 16-bit unsigned integer numbers in C:


```
uint16_t a = 10;
  uint16_t b = 20;
  uint32_t c = a * b;
```
I'll spare you the corresponding assembler dump, but just the code for the actual multiplication is 30 lines of assembler. And then you have to do it with registers which you have to manually assign, keep track of and make room for by pushing and poping registers you're currently not using. And so on, and so on...

That said, I sure wouldn't write the controller software in Python or Java. But then, I don't write ANYTHING in Python or Java since I think they're horrible languages. I did try with C++ (just classes, no STL or so) in the beginning, but when I did a performance test and realised that converting it to C almost doubled the performance, I skipped that. So C it is. By some strange reason I almost always end up going back to C no matter what I start with... 



Darxus said:


> I have had too much contact with reality to presume that. Possible, but not appropriate to assume.


Linux, which I work with on my day job (don't worry, we contribute back), BSD, Sendmail, Apache, gcc etc are good representants for open source that works. Gnome, PulseAudio and some other projects with wildly escalating elephantiasis or projects that pops up, makes a cool SourceForge-page and then more or less grind to a halt, not so much.

Being able to live on open source typically means that you either need a very big customer basis (hello Red Hat) or that you use the open source project more or less as a empirical CV that proves that you know your shit. I could use the Soliton code to show off my skills, but EVnetics has spent pretty much money on developing the hardware so if I would give away the code it'd kill EVnetics and without EVnetics I wouldn't have a hardware to code for.

So yes, greedy capitalism's in da house, but it's greedy capitalism with bills to pay and I don't think a "Donate" PayPal button would cover it... 



JRP3 said:


> As has been explained regen on series DC through the motor simply isn't worth the hassle and potential damage.


I think what's convinced me that regen on series wound motors just isn't worth it is that the contactors you need cost a lot. Sure, if you're doing direct drive and need the contactors to reverse the motor anyway it could be worth it, but how many Soliton owners have chosen direct drive AND have a motor that's not advanced?

There's a few that are doing direct drive that I know of, but I think all of them have WarP's and since WarP's are advanced none of them would be able to do regen anyway. So the real question is if it's worth the time and effort for such a complicated feature that so few would use anyway? I'm leaning towards "Probably not".


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

markcycle said:


> Regen does not extend range


I think that needs qualifying. On flat roads with relatively constant speed, true. When I'm going down a 2 mile long hill that would normally require me to put on the brakes, and instead I'm getting 50-100 amps back into the pack, false.


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## Darxus (May 10, 2010)

Regenerative braking is probably also useful coming down from one of those mountains where disc / drum brakes will fade to the point of uselessness and you fall off.


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I think that needs qualifying. On flat roads with relatively constant speed, true. When I'm going down a 2 mile long hill that would normally require me to put on the brakes, and instead I'm getting 50-100 amps back into the pack, false.


So on a 30 mile trip, what percentage Regen do you see, not peak amps back but total percent returned to the pack. My experience using the Cycle analyst is that I never see more than 5% regen on a motorcycle. Certainly a car will be better.


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## markcycle (Nov 5, 2008)

Darxus said:


> Regenerative braking is probably also useful coming down from one of those mountains where disc / drum brakes will fade to the point of uselessness and you fall off.


 Certainly does save brakes if the motor doesn't overheats As I said i like the way regen feels and use regen on almost every stop.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

markcycle said:


> So on a 30 mile trip, what percentage Regen do you see, not peak amps back but total percent returned to the pack. My experience using the Cycle analyst is that I never see more than 5% regen on a motorcycle. Certainly a car will be better.


Don't know the percentage as I don't yet have the equipment to measure it, but as you say if the bike can hit 5% and a car will do more, that's real world range extension right there. 10% on a 20 or more mile pack can mean the difference between making it home and a tow, or just keeping the pack at a higher SOC, which is always nice.


----------



## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Regen braking with a series motor requires, at a minimum, a set of reversing contactors, which (unless you go with the cheap Chinese knock-offs) would cost a substantial fraction of the Jr.'s price.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> EDIT: you should realize that in the real world - with ac controllers - regen maybe adds 10% to the range. If you can't get the range you need with batteries alone, regen is unlikely to make up the difference. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it. Also, strong regen braking in any vehicle is potentially very dangerous, especially if the road is slippery from snow, ice, rain, mud, etc.. It's especially dangerous on a motorcycle.


I have to admit I have not researched the differences of BLDC vs. the other types of motors, since BLDC seems like a no-brainer way to go. I guess I'll have to make sure: the Jr. would run a BLDC motor right? =P Considering Kelly etc. support regen usually, am I missing something big here with BLDC and controller choice options?

As for real world levels, yes it may only be small portions in many practical uses, however if you make a good drag and low rolling res bike, as I said, the proportion of energy lost to braking will increase versus the energy lost combating drag and rolling res. And of course the regen would only be a "engine braking" type of slow braking, like what happens when you are in high RPM and cut the gas, not BRAKING braking. 

Dunno why it would be especially dangerous, since would it not work somewhat like a non-lock brake system? If the motor ain't spinning it can't generate force to brake, so it would in wheel lock situation lose braking force and thus unlock? Or am I missing something again ... since regen implies energy gained, it can't be active reverse force since that would require energy used ...


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Darxus said:


> Why? I got the impression there was very little (electricity) to gain from regen.
> 
> How much, how often?


Basically, 80 miles one way or the vehicle is useless as a method of transportation for me. Yeah I live in the middle of nowhere.  Well I live 700 meters from my workplace, but ...

As for electric energy from regen, it all depends on every other variable. But if one has a low drag low rolling res, but somewhat weightier vehicle (batts for all that range sigh), it all adds up. Of course "modern" cars have suck-all drag and not so good rolling resistance usually (most don't even get low rr tyres ), so it is no wonder practical regen range increase is lowish.


----------



## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Dunno if you Soliton people follow endless-sphere, but there are a couple of 12-14kW motors being designed there, and lots of people interested in using them. Many even thinking of multiple motors.

The Jr would make them scream, even multiple motors. As a controller it may even be a bit overkill, but since the price point of controllers that can run that high RPM as the 75kv outrunner need for pushing the limits is around the 1500$ anyways ... I see a nice niche for you guys there.

Couple of Q:s, sorry if they would be the same as the big brother controller. 

1) what's the max elec rpm the Jr could do?
2) considering these are BLDC, could the Jr be made to do regen?
3) the Jr could do series/parallel switching for the motors if wanted?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ewert said:


> 1) what's the max elec rpm the Jr could do?


Does not really apply since it's a DC-controller. It will, however, pump out a high enough voltage to spin a series wound to it's death. On the other hand, that's not very hard if the motor isn't loaded down. 



ewert said:


> 2) considering these are BLDC, could the Jr be made to do regen?


BLDC is a rather unfortunate name since they have more in common with AC-motors than with traditional DC-motors. No, neither S1 or Jr will be able to power a BLDC.



ewert said:


> 3) the Jr could do series/parallel switching for the motors if wanted?


Yes. All that is needed is the software for it, but so far we haven't really heard much demand for that feature so it's not high on my priority list right now.


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## Dink (Jun 3, 2010)

toddshotrods said:


> It's just a hunch but I think the market for "megawatt" controllers will grow. When (steet-oriented) electric drag racers finally, and consistently, cross the ten second barrier I think it will bring in new players. There's just something about a ten-second, street-legal, car. If we ever get into the nines, there should be a LOT of interest. A big part of the charm will be in the fact that it has the ability to putt around on the street with the same powertrain - like a turbo ICE powertrain. Some of those are in the $30-50K range just for the twin-turbo IC engine, so I don't think a preminum price tag for a serious controller would be an issue. I believe the top EFI controllers are in the $5-6K range.


 I'm proof of the growth of the up comming market. I'm realy interested in the Solition 0.5 first. 300v and 500amps. Perfect for our 6.7" dual motors. At the limits of the brushes (Major said) 500amps, would be looking nice on paper with 300v capabilities as a series/parallel set up.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Dangit, found a Soliton on ebay, it was gone too quickly!


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi! Qer,

Any new update on the Soliton controller, any result on race?

My project is coming along and soon need a controller for drag racing, I would love to test it here in SA, there are a lot of people here that want to do electric, but they all waiting for me to finish it first.

Albano


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

albano said:


> Any new update on the Soliton controller, any result on race?
> 
> My project is coming along and soon need a controller for drag racing, I would love to test it here in SA, there are a lot of people here that want to do electric, but they all waiting for me to finish it first.
> 
> Albano


Which controller are you interested in? The Soliton1 is an established product so there aren't really any updates on it (well, besides code updates). No one has raced with it so far as I know but plenty of people have installed it in what I consider to be far more demanding applications than a 15 second drag racer (like, say, pushing a #4650 Volvo down the interstate at 70mph for 1 hour).

The 500A/300V "Junior" and the ~2400A/~400V+ "Big Sol" are in development now. I still have to design a new main control board that will eventually be used in all of the Soliton models, but just Junior and Big Sol for nowt. Beta testing of Junior will probably begin at the end of this month, beginning of next. The biggest slowdown for us is that many electronic parts are in short supply or have lengthy backorder times right now - apparently the economy isn't nearly as bad as the doom-n-gloom crowd claims it to be.

I'm not yet sure how we'll beta test Big Sol, much less do destructive testing - we'll need a 1MW power source and load, after all, just to do full-load testing, much less overload testing.


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> ).
> 
> The 500A/300V "Junior" and the ~2400A/~400V+ "Big Sol" are in development now.


That good news, 2400 amps and 400v. Can't wait to see what it does, and don't forget about the ramp "launch controls" for drag racing as Bill mention on NEDRA forum http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/message/6442 

Albano


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

albano said:


> ...don't forget about the ramp "launch controls" for drag racing as Bill mention on NEDRA forum http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA/message/6442


The Soliton code already provides that function - the motor current ramp rate is programmable from 100A/s to 25kA/s. The method Bill Dube describes is a workaround for the "instant on" behavior of the Zilla.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Here's all the motor related parameters in Soliton 1 FYI.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Which controller are you interested in?


The one you didn't mention  TriSol, Soliton3P, SoliPhase....


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The one you didn't mention  TriSol, Soliton3P, SoliPhase....


I Second that


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The one you didn't mention  TriSol, Soliton3P, SoliPhase....


All of these products - Jr., Big Sol and whatever we call the AC controller (I'm sorta partial to, "red-headed stepchild" myself) - are being developed simultaneously; some will take longer than others, is all.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I guess I can't say you're slacking  Who's head will explode first, yours or Qer? Though I suppose most of the software will just transfer to Jr and Biggie?


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The one you didn't mention  TriSol, Soliton3P, SoliPhase....


It will be a waist of time to build AC, as it will be too expensive as well as the AC motor. Dc is much cheaper and has much more torque at 0 RPM. If a lots of guys out there can't afford DC, how are they going to afford AC?

Witch is better for a company, is to sell 200 DC controller a year or sell only 20 AC controller a year?


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

albano said:


> It will be a waist of time to build AC, as it will be too expensive as well as the AC motor. Dc is much cheaper and has much more torque at 0 RPM. If a lots of guys out there can't afford DC, how are they going to afford AC?
> 
> Witch is better for a company, is to sell 200 DC controller a year or sell only 20 AC controller a year?


AC = Efficiency (less batteries, less cost)
AC = Regen (less batteries help offset extra controller cost)
AC = Higher torque at high revs
AC = Often higher voltage (smaller cables, less cost)
AC = Less than current costs if high volume production
AC = Safer if controller fails
AC = Durability

I'm sure there's more? but I for one would seriously consider getting one if I thought I was intending to use it for the long term.

Waist of time? No, it's the future.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

albano said:


> It will be a waist of time to build AC, as it will be too expensive as well as the AC motor. Dc is much cheaper and has much more torque at 0 RPM. If a lots of guys out there can't afford DC, how are they going to afford AC?
> 
> Witch is better for a company, is to sell 200 DC controller a year or sell only 20 AC controller a year?


This will change eventually. AC will get more affordable than DC. In the non DIY EV world almost all DC systems are replaced by AC. Just look at the electric forklifts, there are not many DC forklifts new on the market. I do'nt know any forklift manufaterers that are still building DC's. The same happened in the Golfcarts industry. The professional EV market, and hybrids are all AC. Those systems will hit the EV hobby market any time now. When this will happen, nobody knows. But can you take the risk of missing this tipping point? Just look at the price drop of that last two years. 

Look at: http://currentevtech.com/Drive-Syst...lers/80KW-BLDC-Motor-and-Controller-p167.html

This could be the tipping point. I don't know the quality and service, but can you get so much power for that price in DC?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Sigh.. I guess we have yet another AC vs. DC debate on our hands...

As for the assertion that AC is the future... well, the two motor technologies are pretty much the same age. IIRC, the ACIM was invented in 1888 and the brushed dc motor - as it is still used today - was invented in 1873. That hardly makes the ACIM the "wave of the future"...



Jan said:


> ..AC will get more affordable than DC.


I don't see that happening because a mechanical commutator will always be cheaper to make than an inverter. The ACIM is much simpler to build than a series DC motor, true, but it's just not enough to offset the cost of the inverter.



Jan said:


> In the non DIY EV world almost all DC systems are replaced by AC.
> ...
> But can you take the risk of missing this tipping point?


While that first statement is more or less true, I take issue with the second: there's no risk in a DIYer picking DC over AC. Unless you live in a very hilly region it has been amply demonstrated that regen does little or nothing for your range (5% seems to be the mean amount of energy returned to the pack) and the other "advantages" are mainly design dependent - that is, good design of the DC motor or controller can negate these supposedly "intrinsic" advantages of the AC system (e.g., overall efficiency, safety, etc.).

Indeed, for most high performance and racing EVs DC will reign supreme for many years to come. A 1MW DC controller from us is an imminent possibility while that same power level from an AC inverter? Maybe 20 years from now, unless you want to take out a mortgage to pay for it, that is. 

And speaking of price...



Jan said:


> ...I don't know the quality and service, but can you get so much power for that price in DC?


As a matter of fact, you can get 100kW peak (10-20 seconds, motor limited) for ~$4700US going with a Soliton1 and a Warp9 motor. You can get the same amount of peak power (but not torque) for about $1000US less by substituting a Junior, instead.

Worse is that you are trying to prove your point about costs coming down with a no-name Chinese BLDC motor/inverter combo that, if I am not mistaken, several members over the last few years have had endless problems with. 

Finally, I don't know of a single person on this forum that has ponied up for the Tritium controller... I have long asserted that few if any people will pay the premium for AC when it comes right down to it and this seems to be proving true. The apparent lack of sales of the Tritium controller doesn't exactly encourage me to work harder on our own inverter design (even though it will probably be more powerful for a similar price).


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

karlos said:


> AC = Efficiency (less batteries, less cost)


Nope. The motor is more efficient, the controller less. It all adds up to a possible slightly increased efficiency, but you won't notice it in the grand scheme of things unless you build two EV's that are identical to the last bolt except for DC versus AC. Heck, if one brake is in a bad shape and gets stuck you'll notice that more than the difference in efficiency between DC and AC.



karlos said:


> AC = Regen (less batteries help offset extra controller cost)


Unless you live in a hilly area or do a lot of stop and go regen won't do much difference. Besides, you can get regen with DC too, old Renault Clio Electric use SepEx that can do regen just fine.



karlos said:


> AC = Higher torque at high revs


No. power = rpm * torque. When rpm goes up, torque goes down.



karlos said:


> AC = Often higher voltage (smaller cables, less cost)


How many bucks are we talking about here? Is it even noticeable compared to the cost difference of the motors and controllers? Does it even matter compared to the increased cost for charger and BMS because of the higher pack voltage and cell count?



karlos said:


> AC = Less than current costs if high volume production


Maybe... But that goes for everything. The volume for DC-controllers aren't that high as well, so I doubt that AC controllers can drop down to equal prices no matter what.



karlos said:


> AC = Safer if controller fails


Depends on how it fails. Modern controllers have software too, which means that they can detect a hardware error and shut down the contactors but also that the software can malfunction and cause a runaway, and in the latter case it means it won't matter if the motor is a DC or AC motor.



karlos said:


> AC = Durability


Those Clio's mentioned above has motors that's been rolling for over a decade, so they seem more durable than the car itself at least. Surely that's good enough?

Is AC better? Maybe? Possibly? Is it more hyped? Yes, definitely. Yes, we're planning an AC-controller because we see a market there, but personally I think the advantages are extremely hyped.

In the end the main task for a motor and controller is how well they convert stored electrical power to physical momentum, and there's a lot more than DC versus AC in how well that's done.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Sigh.. I guess we have yet another AC vs. DC debate on our hands...


No, that's what you make of it. Sigh. You're blind if you do not see the change. And for one living of this, that's.. Wel, your choice.



> As for the assertion that AC is the future... well, the two motor technologies are pretty much the same age. IIRC, the ACIM was invented in 1888 and the brushed dc motor - as it is still used today - was invented in 1873. That hardly makes the ACIM the "wave of the future"...


Name me a few forklift or golfcart companies who still use DC, please. Trains, regular processing industry, electri boat motors, car manufaterer, name just 5 who build there newest gadget with DC. And than name 5, who did it 30 years ago.

Li-Ion is also old. Simpler: the electric motor is even older than the combustion engine. Still some think the electric motor will be the future. You make things just a little to simple. 

How do the eneglish say it? If your only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. You seem to be a little to much focussed on arguments egainst AC, even if no one is there to argue. As you can read back, I didn't write any argument pro AC. Just my believe, based on what happens in the real world, what will happen in this small hobby market too. Why this will happen? Maybe AC is better than DC, but the most important reason is because we live here from spinn offs, surpluses, and second hand stuff from the real world. We just a few years behind.



> I don't see that happening because a mechanical commutator will always be cheaper to make than an inverter. The ACIM is much simpler to build than a series DC motor, true, but it's just not enough to offset the cost of the inverter.


Costs are not based on the price of the available parts, but on the size of the market. Look at the inverter for the dual mode hybrid. New, even under 1,5K. Everybody thinks it must be underpowerd. Just because of that price. I don't think so, this inverter is part of almost a dozen different car types. From 4 differtent car makers. That's why it is just 1,5K.




> Indeed, for most high performance and racing EVs DC will reign supreme for many years to come. A 1MW DC controller from us is an imminent possibility while that same power level from an AC inverter? Maybe 20 years from now, unless you want to take out a mortgage to pay for it, that is.


There will be for al long time a slowly smaller getting market. But there is already an hybrid porsche. pretty powerfull. And I bet it's AC. Why? Tell me.



> Worse is that you are trying to prove your point about costs coming down with a no-name Chinese BLDC motor/inverter combo that, if I am not mistaken, several members over the last few years have had endless problems with.


No, please. Sigh. Pfff. So tired. Sigh. And another sigh. That was NOT to proof my point. The proof is in the real world, you're so good at to neglet.

That was to show what happening in the EV DIY world now. And I don't know -like I said already, sigh- if it's the tipping point.

I only know of David, that used a chinese BLDC motor. There is a lot to say about the manufactere based on that conversion. But also that it works. Well sometimes. When his car is put together again.



> The apparent lack of sales of the Tritium controller doesn't exactly encourage me to work harder on our own inverter design (even though it will probably be more powerful for a similar price).


Your choice. Maybe it's save to wait till parts get cheaper. My opinion of what will happen eventualy stays pretty much the same. You didn't impress me at all. Maybe the starting sigh, wasted that possible outcome.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the Tritium isn't popular because of it's low amperage limitations. You can't use it with the most popular affordable series of AC EV motors, the HPEVS. The common complaint with those motors is the limitation of the low voltage Curtis, I don't know how many times I've read "I'd get one if only they had higher voltage".


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Whoa, there, Jan. What's with the nastiness? I'll chalk it up to the language barrier but, man, was that last post rude.

My point earlier was that the argument between AC and DC is pointless, that what the OEMs chose to do is irrelevant, and that there isn't a huge difference in performance between the two technologies when the motors and controls are of modern design, anyway. 

The most important metric to the DIY market is the price paid for the performance obtained, and as of now that metric is very much tilted in DC's favor. Unsurprisingly, that is why the overwhelming majority of EVs go with DC. Is that changing? Sure, but it might take 10 years or it might take 1. Who really knows, but a business can go bankrupt if they plan on the latter only to experience the former.

We try to respond to the actual market, not predict the future, and it is in response to the market convinced us to broaden our DC product offering. Too many people told us that the Soliton1 was either too powerful for their application (small cars and motorcycles), or too small (drag racers) for us to ignore them, so we initiated the Junior and Big Sol versions. 

However, a growing number of people (i.e. - conversion shops) have also told us they might be able to do more fleet conversions - delivery trucks and such - if a more powerful AC controller was available, so we pretty much changed our position on AC 100%.

Finally, I really don't prefer DC motors over AC. I've concentrated on power conversion my entire career because I find it interesting and challenging; I couldn't care less whether the "load" is a DC motor, a CO2 laser or a radio transmitter.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Qer said:


> Besides, you can get regen with DC too, old Renault Clio Electric use SepEx that can do regen just fine.


Sure, and finding a SepEx motor and a higher power SepEx controller is even less likely than an AC system, at least on this side of the pond. As for the real world benefits of regen, it's not just about range, it's about increased driveability. I like being able to control my speed with a single pedal most of the time. Saves break pad and rotor wear as well.



> No. power = rpm * torque. When rpm goes up, torque goes down.


Graphs I've seen show torque holding steady as rpm goes up, to a point, then dropping down. Real world has my 115V 550 amp system taking me to 65 in second gear with no problem at 6500RPM. I could change the software parameter up to 8000RPM max, I think the HPEVS motors can do 10K. More voltage would stretch the torque curve out.



> Yes, we're planning an AC-controller because we see a market there, but personally I think the advantages are extremely hyped.


Yet your potential customers don't seem to feel the same way. Follow the hype and you'll probably sell some product. I think the iphone is way over hyped but it's selling fairly well.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Whoa, there, Jan. What's with the nastiness?


 You did "sigh" at him 



> However, a growing number of people (i.e. - conversion shops) have also told us they might be able to do more fleet conversions - delivery trucks and such - if a more powerful AC controller was available, so we pretty much changed our position on AC 100%. _Plus JRP3 has been bugging us and we need to shut him up._


Fixed that for you


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I may actually end up with a foot in each waiting list. I am firmly rooted in the Big Sol line, and _thinking_ about pitching a tent in the AC line.

The only frustrating thing from my perspective is the constant bickering over it. Geez guys there aren't even enough of us (DIYers) to constitute a handful, when taken in context of the entire automotive marketplace, yet there is a constant need to subdivide and argue over relative minutia. Who freakin cares whether a person builds AC or DC - it's an EV! Celebrate the fact that yet another is in the works or on the road. The technologies are similar enough that lessons can be learned and shared to grow the hobby (that what it is here). Same stupid story with the drag racing crowd - arguing over stupid $4!#, and creating new emotional divisions, instead of channeling the energy into going faster as a group.

As for EVNetics, and any other manufacturer in this hobby, you should all just be glad that they're willing to invest a dime in developing ANY product for a DIY EVer. They could be making a lot more money in other areas of the whole sustainable, renewable, living movement. You are not entitled to anything, and have no power to demand anything beyond how much you're willing to spend, geez! Good businesses don't make haphazard decisions, they follow the money. You want them to do something different, ante up.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> Whoa, there, Jan. What's with the nastiness? I'll chalk it up to the language barrier but, man, was that last post rude.


Mmm.. I wasn't rude, just a bit sarcastic. My knowledge of english is to little to be rude.

The sarcams, was for the little insulting 'sigh', but especially for the -I had to look it up- Straw man fallacy. In this post you eventually totaly agree with me, yet you found it necesarry to attack me -not my point- in your previous post.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> You are not entitled to anything, and have no power to demand anything beyond how much you're willing to spend, geez! Good businesses don't make haphazard decisions, they follow the money.


I'd say customer demand is exactly what drives business, or should to some degree. Solition1 grew out of a market demand for something other than a Zilla, and something actually available without a long lead time. There is a growing consumer demand for an AC inverter, whether or not it can be done at a practical price is another matter, but the demand does seem to be there. Certainly we aren't entitled to anything, but there is nothing wrong with making our desires known to any manufacturer that will listen. EVnetics has shown a willingness to listen, though they may regret that at times


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I'd say customer demand is exactly what drives business, or should to some degree. Solition1 grew out of a market demand for something other than a Zilla, and something actually available without a long lead time. There is a growing consumer demand for an AC inverter, whether or not it can be done at a practical price is another matter, but the demand does seem to be there. Certainly we aren't entitled to anything, but there is nothing wrong with making our desires known to any manufacturer that will listen. EVnetics has shown a willingness to listen, though they may regret that at times


From a strictly business perspective, what you're speaking of is not what a business views as "demand", that's interest. The difference is interest does not always translate into sales. I don't know if EVNetics and Cafe Electric care to share actual numbers but, compared to what it takes to develop and market their products, there is basically no real demand for the higher end products, _i.e._ 1K and up controllers. Despite all the disappointment over the EVC bust, and Zilla production woes again, there were reportedly Zillas on the shelf waiting for buyers. If you count up the Zillas and Solitons being used in projects on this board, I doubt you would find enough to have profitably sustained one of the businesses for even a year. What you'll currently find real demand for is what they're doing next - Jr. There are quite a bit of Curtis, Alltrax, Kelly, etc, controlled projects...

To find real, immediate, demand in a specialty market you will find people using whatever they can make work to get by. In other words, for AC, there would be 50-100 of you (JRP3) here on this board, making due with the Curtis controller and waiting for the day when they can upgrade to an EVNetics AC inverter. That's demand you can bank on. All those people saying I would if there was, aren't a reliable way to gauge making an investment because they haven't made one yet. All the people with used forklift motors are already invested, and many are looking for a decent upgrade.

Trust me it hurts to swallow that pill myself, because it means that Big Sol really shouldn't be a priority right now. There are only a handful of really serious racers, in this particular less than a handful of automotive enthusiasts. I would rather for them to make the sound business decisions they need to and be here to try the good stuff later, than take off on a wish and a prayer and not live (as a company) to tell about it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Certainly the market for BigSol is tiny. However, HPEVs have been actively looking for a bigger inverter for their motor so I would think there is a built in market of some volume waiting for it beyond us DIY types looking to upgrade. I have suggested contacting HPEVs directly and seeing if they are interested, maybe EVnetics has done so.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> All those people saying I would if there was, aren't a reliable way to gauge making an investment because they haven't made one yet.


We kinda learned that from when we planned the S1. Tesseract asked if people really needed 1kA and lots of replies said that damn straight they needed 1kA! 750A peak, 500A continuously (as the plan was back then) simply wouldn't be enough. Then, somehow, many of those people didn't buy S1 in the end simply because they found the price tag a bit too stiff when it came to opening up their wallets. 

I can relate, actually, so don't read this as accusations. I'd rather say that we have ourselves to blame by believing those "demands" a bit too much and not think things through. That's why we're planning the Junior now, because we've learned that 1kA IS too much (especially considering the S1 eats 9"-motors...) and that 500A will be more than enough for most people. After all, many of those 500A-controllers out there only peaks 500A (some of them drops to below half that current in continuous rating!) so the Junior will still be a big meanie compared to those. 



toddshotrods said:


> Trust me it hurts to swallow that pill myself, because it means that Big Sol really shouldn't be a priority right now.


That's exactly why it isn't. But with S1 and Jr in the portfolio the Big Sol will be based on pretty mature technology. Building a Big Sol from scratch would be financial suicide, but just "beefing up" an existing production series is doable. It'll probably never be profitable, but on the other hand it'll definitely be a proof that we know our shit. Not everything can be measured in dollars...


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## albano (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Jan and all!

Here is one more prove about DC, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rShStMuu0Cw 

That is one of the most wonderful burnout drag bike in the whole planet, It is power by DC. This is what we want to see , power from the starting line.

Dennis Berube is one of the man who can really build a drag motor, and now it Qer and Tesseract to build one of the most powerful controller.

We cant' let those gas burner carry on and on on the drag strip, we need more electric on the drag strip, and that is how we promote electric by showing the world what EV can do.

Once again much oblige to Dennis Berube and Shawn lawless to show that wonderful burnout of your new drag bike.

Albano


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

albano said:


> Hi Jan and all!
> 
> Here is one more prove about DC


It could be my english. It is possible I'm just stupid. But can you explain to me what this exactly proofs?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Here we go again...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

It's a shame Jack doesn't live here anymore. I'm so surprised of his next project. You would think after his Mini AC dissaster he would prefer DC for this next 'budget project'. Especcially after his quest against the 'regen myth'. But somehow he choose again for AC.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

toddshotrods said:


> Here we go again...


I'm sorry.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

After I earned quite some experience with EV racing and testing I have a few questions to compare my controller with the Soliton.

What will happen if the motor is at 0 RPM and you floor it with a high voltage battery that can easily give over 1000Amp? Will the controller pull 1000Amp from the pack instantly? Or will it be able to pull that 1kA only when the motor and battery voltage are equal?

In other words, is the 1000 Amp rating on both battery and motor side?

Jeff and I have already talked about this but some things aren't clear for me. 

My pack and controller are both able to give 2000 Amps but the controller supplies that 2000 Amp to the motor just for a short time, at low RPMs. Since the motor voltage at low RPMs is low too, we don't pull more than 900 Amps form the pack. When RPMs and motor voltage rise, the armature current drops and we never see much more than 900 Amps from the pack. The cell voltage never drops below 2,8V so we can pull more for sure.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jan said:


> It's a shame Jack doesn't live here anymore. I'm so surprised of his next project. You would think after his Mini AC dissaster he would prefer DC for this next 'budget project'. Especcially after his quest against the 'regen myth'. But somehow he choose again for AC.


What happened?

I don't have the time and nerves to watch his hour-long videos...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> What happened?
> 
> I don't have the time and nerves to watch his hour-long videos...


How do you mean what happened? His projects? He's starting a Smart with an AC system from Electro Vehicles Europe. A budget project.

I've got some problems with my attention span too. If he repeats an explanation for the third time, I loose focus. And I'm sure he repeats it even more. Thanks to fast forward I can follow his show.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Jan said:


> How do you mean what happened?


_
"after his Mini AC dissaster"
_
Why disaster? You mean the motor housing problem? Well, if something like that happened to me, I wouldn't even mention it - not too hard to fix. He made a drama out of it. Or something else happened?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

thats all i heard happened...

I was interested in his AC-50 Porsche speedster replica conversion...the 0-100kmh in 12.3 seconds doesnt really sound to good, but the efficiency of ~250hw/mile would be a real nice to have...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> _
> "after his Mini AC dissaster"
> _
> Why disaster? You mean the motor housing problem? Well, if something like that happened to me, I wouldn't even mention it - not too hard to fix. He made a drama out of it. Or something else happened?


Ah, that's what you mean. I probably over dramatized the words. It's not just the motor housing. It all turned out to be a prety expensive conversion.

And after that, and his 'regen myth busting', I wonder why he stick to AC. There must be something that attracks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe another thread should be started to discuss Jack's choices, since it really has little bearing on this thread.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> In other words, is the 1000 Amp rating on both battery and motor side?
> 
> Jeff and I have already talked about this but some things aren't clear for me.


Easiest way to look at it (at least I think so):

Current rating for a controller is motor current, so a 1000 Amp controller can give up to 1000 motor Amps no matter RPM. Motor voltage is, however, more or less proportional to RPM (I'm lying a bit here, but bear with me) so let's say that at 0 RPM the motor voltage is 0 Volt and at 6000 RPM it's 200 Volt.

At 0 RPM the total power from the motor is 0*1000 = 0W (which is utter bullshit in RL, but in theory...  ) and at 6000 RPM the total power from the motor is 200*1000 = 200kW. Now, since a controller pretty much converts power to power (but with different voltages) it gives that:

Pm = Um*Im = Ub*Ib = Pb

where P is power (Watt), U is voltage and I is current (Ampere). m is motor and b is battery. Now, with a 300 Volt battery pack we get for 0 RPM that Um = 0, Im = 1000:

Um*Im=Ub*Ib which is

Um*Im/Ub=Ib -> 0*1000/300=0 Ampere

So with 0 Volt over the motor at 1000 Ampere current the battery will see 0 Ampere. So at 6000 RPM we get Um = 200, Im = 1000:

Um*Im/Ub=Ib -> 200*1000/300=666.66... Ampere

So in this example the battery won't see full motor current (1000 Ampere) until the motor reach 9000 RPM, but at that time most (all?) DC motors will be scattered all over the pavement so for sane RPMs the battery pack won't see more than 600-700 Ampere. Ever.

Or to put it simpler:

Motor voltage is always less or equal to battery voltage while battery current is always less or equal to motor current. If you have a 150 Volt pack that can only give 500 Ampere max you can still get 1000 Ampere motor current, but only up to 75 Volt. After that the controller will have to decrease motor current linearly to 500 [email protected] Volt to not risk to damage the batteries.

Then there's of course losses and the whole thing got a lot more complicated, but just let's ignore that for now.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ...There is a growing consumer demand for an AC inverter, whether or not it can be done at a practical price is another matter, but the demand does seem to be there.


Yes, there does seem to be demand for a more powerful (yet not ridiculously priced) AC inverter, but it is mainly from fleet conversion shops. There may be plenty of DIYers that _say_ they want AC, but how many will actually _choose_ it when it comes time to spend their money? Evnetics will soon be in the unique position of offering both an AC and a DC controller with very similar "look and feel" but because the AC controller requires 3 IGBTs and can't run them at more than 70% duty cycle, the AC controller WILL be more expensive than it's closest DC controller cousin in power. I won't really ever be able to give out actual numbers - not in writing, anyway - but I will give out the sales breakdown in percentages at some future date (just remind me).



JRP3 said:


> Certainly we aren't entitled to anything, but there is nothing wrong with making our desires known to any manufacturer that will listen. EVnetics has shown a willingness to listen, though they may regret that at times


Yep, I think we have certainly demonstrated a willingness not only to listen, but to implement suggestions made by our customers and potential customers (though we take those from the former more seriously - after all, they bought a vote  ). Conversely, if we DON'T implement a suggestion or make a particular product then it stands to reason we had good reasons for not doing so.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry for hijacking the thread again but...



Bowser330 said:


> but the efficiency of ~250hw/mile would be a real nice to have...


250 wh/mile in a tubular frame, composite body, two seater without any gadgets would be nice? I would expect something like 150 wh/mile with an AC system. 

He claims a 225 Wh/mile consumption with the DC setup

http://www.evalbum.com/2363

Thanks for the explanation Qer.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Certainly the market for BigSol is tiny. However, HPEVs have been actively looking for a bigger inverter for their motor so I would think there is a built in market of some volume waiting for it beyond us DIY types looking to upgrade. I have suggested contacting HPEVs directly and seeing if they are interested, maybe EVnetics has done so.


Yes, the market for Big Sol is tiny, but the advertising value from it will be priceless. Just one Big Sol in the right project (like, say, Todd's Inhaler) is worth the price of admission to us. 

As for HPEVS, no, we haven't contacted them, but I do recall you suggesting that. I also recall determining that the inverter we could build first with minimal fuss might not help out the AC50 or AC31 all that much. 500A per phase (865A battery side) is about the same as the existing Curtis controllers, so not much improvement there, while being able to deliver 230Vrms might be too much.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Sorry for hijacking the thread again but...


As Qer would say... Gnf!




CroDriver said:


> 250 wh/mile in a tubular frame, composite body, two seater without any gadgets would be nice? I would expect something like 150 wh/mile with an AC system. ...


An AC system is more efficient than a DC system, but it isn't THAT much more efficient. Overall efficiency of an AC system might be 94% x 90% or 85%; for a DC system it might be 98% x 85% or 83%. The Soliton1, for example, is around 99% efficient at the midpoint of its operating range (150V/500A output).

Also, Wh/mi is only valid at one speed, on level ground, with no wind, etc. Change any of those variables and you toss that energy consumption rate out the window.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...It'll probably never be profitable, but on the other hand it'll definitely be a proof that we know our shit. Not everything can be measured in dollars...


You set those up for measurement with a crazy man, in a crazy vehicle, with a heavy right foot, and no apparent internal "fear sensors"! 





Tesseract said:


> Yes, the market for Big Sol is tiny, but the advertising value from it will be priceless. Just one Big Sol in the right project (like, say, Todd's Inhaler) is worth the price of admission to us...


I'm going to need dental implants by the time we get to that point from grinding my teeth down to nubs just thinking about it!  < my new implants!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> As for HPEVS, no, we haven't contacted them, but I do recall you suggesting that. I also recall determining that the inverter we could build first with minimal fuss might not help out the AC50 or AC31 all that much. 500A per phase (865A battery side) is about the same as the existing Curtis controllers, so not much improvement there, while being able to deliver 230Vrms might be too much.


Even at the same current a higher voltage controller would lessen the effect of voltage sag from the pack and allow the motors to carry their torque to a significantly higher RPM which would help quite a bit. My AC31 pulls very nicely in first gear but the torque starts to drop off around 2KRPM, another 1K or more would be sweet. That would probably allow taking the motor past the 6500 RPM mark and still have some power. Even if your controller is capable of "too much" voltage you could of course limit it in the controller. Here's something to ponder, you mention 500 amps per phase, 865 battery side. I've never seen more than about 550 amps from the battery pack ammeter, but that's 5.5C from my SE 100's so I don't hold it very long. The Curtis 840 display shows about the same amps, but I'm not clear where it's measuring from since it's inside the controller. So possibly your controller might deliver more actual current than the Curtis, or maybe I'm too chicken to push my cells to 8C.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> ... Even if your controller is capable of "too much" voltage you could of course limit it in the controller.


Sure, but working out how to do that in an intelligent manner is one of the keys to making a general purpose inverter for EVs... 



JRP3 said:


> Here's something to ponder, you mention 500 amps per phase, 865 battery side. I've never seen more than about 550 amps from the battery pack ammeter...


Ok, this is an important tidbit. Do you have a way to measure the current in one of the motor phases because this is not what I expected. More specifically, is the 550A rating for motor phase current or battery current? If it's battery current then maximum motor phase current is 3^0.5 less than that, or about 320A...

Damn AC inverters... too easy to play fast and loose with the specs.

And as for whether or not our controller will deliver more continuous current than a "similarly rated" Curtis... well, what do you think? Proper thermal design is one of the keys to the Soliton1's ass-kicking performance... why would we not do the same for an inverter?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Sure, but working out how to do that in an intelligent manner is one of the keys to making a general purpose inverter for EVs...


That's why they pay you guys the big bucks  Don't you already do that with the Soliton1, limit motor voltage from a higher pack voltage?




> Ok, this is an important tidbit. Do you have a way to measure the current in one of the motor phases because this is not what I expected.


I've been pondering that but haven't come up with anything better than sitting in the engine bay holding a clamp on meter while someone else drives down the road  Maybe I can rig something using the video on my digital camera. I've asked Tomofreno what battery current he's seen with his AC50, he has larger cells than I do so he'll have less voltage sag and can draw more amps at lower C rates.


> And as for whether or not our controller will deliver more continuous current than a "similarly rated" Curtis... well, what do you think? Proper thermal design is one of the keys to the Soliton1's ass-kicking performance... why would we not do the same for an inverter?


I figured as much.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> That's why they pay you guys the big bucks  Don't you already do that with the Soliton1, limit motor voltage from a higher pack voltage?


Yes, but for a DC motor that is mainly a safety feature, while for an AC motor it is also used to set the V/Hz scaling. 



JRP3 said:


> I've been pondering that but haven't come up with anything better than sitting in the engine bay holding a clamp on meter while someone else drives down the road  Maybe I can rig something using the video on my digital camera.


Digital video would be cumbersome to set up but would work best next to a proper data acquisition system. If the meter has a peak-hold function that would be a passably-effective solution, too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From the Curtis manual:


> Models available for 24V to 80V battery systems, with 200A RMS to 650A RMS 2-minute current ratings


So I guess the 550 amp rating is RMS, and I guess I could be getting even more performance than I am. I'll have to do a full out test and see how much current I can actually draw from these puppies.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Yes, there does seem to be demand for a more powerful (yet not ridiculously priced) AC inverter, but it is mainly from fleet conversion shops. There may be plenty of DIYers that _say_ they want AC, but how many will actually _choose_ it when it comes time to spend their money? Evnetics will soon be in the unique position of offering both an AC and a DC controller with very similar "look and feel" but because the AC controller requires 3 IGBTs and can't run them at more than 70% duty cycle, the AC controller WILL be more expensive than it's closest DC controller cousin in power. I won't really ever be able to give out actual numbers - not in writing, anyway - but I will give out the sales breakdown in percentages at some future date (just remind me).


Tess,

If a similary powered DC system is less money why aren't the Fleet guys just going with your SOLOITON1 rather than waiting on your AC inverter? The efficiency isn't that much better ... is it the regen thing because of stop and go? 

I've looked into all the options and for my 280z when I have finished saving up the money it's a Kosov with your Soliton1 in in there ... yea it might be a bit powerful, but that's the reason i want it, for those times when someone calls my car a golf-cart ... and then all they see is a license plate.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did some hard pulls including starting out in 3rd gear on a long hill, could not pull more than about 550 battery amps and then it quickly dropped down into the 400's. Seems as if around 3500RPM or so the current won't hold, and it takes some time to build up so I'm only above 500 for a couple seconds. Not sure if it's the software limiting the ramp rate or what. I was not in temperature limit or low voltage limit, though voltage did sag quite a bit. Seems as if a controller that could ramp up the current faster with a higher voltage allowing it to hold longer might give a good performance boost even at the same current.
What exactly is the limiting factor on the 500 amp current max? 600-700 amps of max current even for 5-10 seconds would make a huge difference.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

280z1975 said:


> If a similary powered DC system is less money why aren't the Fleet guys just going with your SOLOITON1 rather than waiting on your AC inverter? The efficiency isn't that much better ... is it the regen thing because of stop and go?


Mainly the persistence of many myths, some of which have been mentioned in this thread, but, yeah, it's mostly because they think regen is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It almost doesn't matter that it does little or nothing for range - this idea of recovering energy during braking, rather than throwing it all out as heat, is a powerful one. It's an emotional thing, so we can't argue against it with numbers.

That said, the development of an AC inverter is quite risky because it will require a huge chunk of our resources to build, then even more to root out all the bugs, and then yet more to optimize the performance.

It's not sufficient to just download the example source code from a DSP chip manufacturer go... an EV is a uniquely difficult load for a motor, especially one that relies on performing millions of calculations per second just to know where it's rotor is in space and time...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Did some hard pulls including starting out in 3rd gear on a long hill, could not pull more than about 550 battery amps and then it quickly dropped down into the 400's.
> ....
> What exactly is the limiting factor on the 500 amp current max? 600-700 amps of max current even for 5-10 seconds would make a huge difference.


1. It sure does sound like Curtis is rating their AC controllers by battery amps -which, of course, makes them look a lot more powerful. This can be confirmed by seeing if the current through any one phase is approximately battery current divided by 1.73

2. Assuming thermal limiting really isn't coming into play, then the current drops when the motor RPM requires a higher voltage than is available (ie - you transition from the current-limited region of the curve to the voltage-limited).

3. Why we won't go above 500Arms in _phase_ current is simple economics. The really high current IGBT modules are rated for 1200V and price pretty much doubles going from 600V to 1200V. There is a 600V inverter module that can deliver more current (700Arms per phase) but it costs over twice as much as the three modules we would use to do 500Arms. Doesn't sound like such a great deal, now does it?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> 1. It sure does sound like Curtis is rating their AC controllers by battery amps -which, of course, makes them look a lot more powerful. This can be confirmed by seeing if the current through any one phase is approximately battery current divided by 1.73


I'm working on a way to verify that.


> 2. Assuming thermal limiting really isn't coming into play, then the current drops when the motor RPM requires a higher voltage than is available (ie - you transition from the current-limited region of the curve to the voltage-limited).


Definitely not thermal limiting, that doesn't happen till above 80C for the controller.


> 3. Why we won't go above 500Arms in _phase_ current is simple economics. The really high current IGBT modules are rated for 1200V and price pretty much doubles going from 600V to 1200V. There is a 600V inverter module that can deliver more current (700Arms per phase) but it costs over twice as much as the three modules we would use to do 500Arms. Doesn't sound like such a great deal, now does it?


No, and if the Curtis is actually limiting battery amps to 550 then 500Arms would really be a nice boost. My question, is the 500Arms limit time related at all, or is it simply a hard ceiling that can't be breached, i.e. things start to break?
One other thought, I believe HPEVs has stated they can build their motors to whatever voltage works, so the existing voltage limit of the motors is probably the result of working within the limitations of the Curtis. They might build their motors differently if they knew there was an inverter to match.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Definitely not thermal limiting, that doesn't happen till above 80C for the controller.


Also, the reason it takes a few seconds to work up to that 550A current on the battery side is for the same reason battery current ramps up on a DC motor even though motor current is pegged at whatever the controller's limit is: power out = power in - losses 



JRP3 said:


> ...if the Curtis is actually limiting battery amps to 550 then 500Arms would really be a nice boost. My question, is the 500Arms limit time related at all, or is it simply a hard ceiling that can't be breached, i.e. things start to break?


Yeah - that was sorta my point. You'd be going from ~320Arms per phase to 500Arms.

The 500Arms limit is using the same derating as in the Soliton1 - it will allow the inverter to deliver rated power continuously. I could easily push to that 750A on a time-limited basis as long as the IGBTs were already at 25C or less... but I won't. 




JRP3 said:


> ...HPEVs ... might build their motors differently if they knew there was an inverter to match.


Interesting tidbit, that.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> The 500Arms limit is using the same derating as in the Soliton1 - it will allow the inverter to deliver rated power continuously. I could easily push to that 750A on a time-limited basis as long as the IGBTs were already at 25C or less... but I won't.


Come on, everybody is doing it  The 550 amp rating for the Curtis is only for 2 minutes. In the real world I can't use 500 amps constantly but I could probably use 700 amps for a few seconds. 
Here's another document saying the current is RMS for their controllers:
http://curtisinstruments.com/index....cts.DownloadPDF&file=50095_1236-1238_RevK.pdf
So why are both Tom and I getting only 550 battery amps?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> As for HPEVS, no, we haven't contacted them, but I do recall you suggesting that. I also recall determining that the inverter we could build first with minimal fuss might not help out the AC50 or AC31 all that much. 500A per phase (865A battery side) is about the same as the existing Curtis controllers, so not much improvement there, while being able to deliver 230Vrms might be too much.


 Hmmm, I thought this was settled a while back in a discussion between Tesseract, Coulomb, and Major on the SwiftE thread. Some excerpts:

Coulomb:
So as I calculated earlier, the pack current will be √3/√2 times one of the motor's line current, neglecting losses_._

Major:
My experience with battery fed inverter induction motor drives is that the motor phase current (RMS) is approximately equal to the battery current at base frequency. This is from a vehicle under maximum acceleration and is the maximum battery current and maximum motor current for the event.

Major also offered some data:
Here is a chart from a dyno run: 
AC curve.JPG (81.7 KB, 32 views)

Coulomb's response:
Taking field excitation into account, the approximation motor line current ~= battery current seems reasonable, and is much easier to remember. It also means that a 550 A RMS per motor line controller (such as a Curtis 1238-7501) is roughly comparable to a 550 A DC controller, which is even easier to remember. And makes the Zilla to Curtis comparison even less of a level comparison. [underline for emphasis added by Tom]

The original posts in the thread are #471, 472, 489, and 495.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Come on, everybody is doing it


Nope. The Soliton 1 doesn't. 

Same thing there, we COULD let the Soliton 1 peak a bit and from the beginning that was on the road map too, but we dropped that idea during development since it increases the complexity of the software and makes the margins more narrow.

After all, the Soliton isn't just about performance, we're aiming for reliability too...


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Hmmm, I thought this was settled a while back in a discussion between Tesseract, Coulomb, and Major on the SwiftE thread. Some excerpts:


I can't believe I did this again... Just like in that previous thread I forgot to factor in the conversion of battery volts to RMS AC volts... D'oh! 

Just so it is clear to anyone else that stumbles upon this thread, where I made my mistake is forgetting the number in red:

*RMS AC Amps * 1.732 / 1.414 = DC Link Amps*

The vector sum of three phase currents offset by 120° is √3 times the current in any one phase.

BUT...

The peak to peak value of the AC voltage developed across each phase can't be any more than the DC voltage (unless a full H-bridge is used for each phase, that is, then it can be twice the pack voltage). The ratio of peak to peak sinusoidal AC volts to RMS or DC volts is the familiar divide by √2. 

Hence, the ratio of phase current to battery current is √3/√2.

Perhaps the third time this comes up will be the charm for me???

Sorry for the confusion... but, need I point out that the vector sum of the AC phase currents should still require about 20% more current from the battery. Someone's cheating somewhere.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The peak to peak value of the AC voltage developed across each phase can't be any more than the DC voltage


Generally, not true. Some modulation methods allow about 15% higher voltages, by injecting 3*n harmonics into generated shape.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

yarross said:


> Generally, not true. Some modulation methods allow about 15% higher voltages, by injecting 3*n harmonics into generated shape.


I don't know that I would go so far as to argue that Space Vector Modulation is used in the majority of inverters today. Also keep in mind that it requires the motor be wired in the wye (star) configuration to work, which might not suit the application at hand.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Qer said:


> Nope. The Soliton 1 doesn't.
> 
> Same thing there, we COULD let the Soliton 1 peak a bit and from the beginning that was on the road map too, but we dropped that idea during development since it increases the complexity of the software and makes the margins more narrow.


So basically it's your fault 



> After all, the Soliton isn't just about performance, we're aiming for reliability too...


Certainly can appreciate that fact. However, isn't it all about temperature limits? The Curtis seems to do a good job of protecting itself when the temperature gets too high, I don't know how it limits the current peak after two minutes, (if it's real time or tempurature related), since I've barely seen it for more than two seconds. Of course if as Jeff says the IGBT's can only handle the higher current if temp is below 25C that probably wouldn't do much good except in the winter. Damn you weak ass IGBT's


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I can't believe I did this again... Just like in that previous thread I forgot to factor in the conversion of battery volts to RMS AC volts... D'oh!


Good thing I never got around to sticking a kid in the motor bay with a clamp on while I drove around  My meter doesn't have a peak hold function  Wait a minute, I have another AC only meter at work that may, I might be able to verify.


> Just so it is clear to anyone else that stumbles upon this thread, where I made my mistake is forgetting the number in red:
> 
> *RMS AC Amps * 1.732 / 1.414 = DC Link Amps*


So Tom and I should really be seeing close to 670 battery amps to provide 550 Arms at the motor?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> So Tom and I should really be seeing close to 670 battery amps to provide 550 Arms at the motor?


Yep, more or less. This doesn't factor in any losses but it should be within 5% or so.

The motor current will be a fairly good sine wave - so even a relatively cheap clamp meter should read it accurately - but the battery current will have a lot of high frequency harmonics that the DC Amps function may not catch (or may intentionally ignore). This usually results in the current reading too low, and may account for why major, et al., report that battery amps and motor phase amps are approximately the same at base speed - the AC reading is at its most accurate while the DC reading is who knows what.

Also keep in mind that the no-load current through the motor phases is almost entirely magnetizing current, which is purely reactive and therefore only circulates back and forth between the stator windings and the input capacitor - very little DC current will be drawn, in other words, which is to be expected since the motor is unloaded. The magnetizing current does cause heating just like torque producing current, though, so it shouldn't be totally dismissed (it is for a very similar reason that the electric utilities hate low power factor loads - it causes a lot of current to slosh back and forth but nothing they can bill for without much more complicated meters).


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Did the peak hold test, meter is a very cheap Harbor Freight Centek, $15.00, and the numbers were changing as I looked at it, so I'm not sure how valid they are. Anyway, it showed 520 and went to 530 off the vehicle as I was holding it, while my battery amp gauge and the 840 gauge showed 550 peak during the drive. So if it's even remotely accurate it's looking as if battery amps are pretty close to motor amps.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> So if it's even remotely accurate it's looking as if battery amps are pretty close to motor amps.


 Which is what Major said for max current at base frequency, and gave dyno data illustrating.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> While I agree that 500 amps may be on the low side for anything other than a put put at 156V, with a 300V pack you could deliver full motor current to the motor and be easier on the batteries.


500 amps at 156v is not exactly 'putt-putt'....

besides the Warp9 is not rated for over 156v, right? this seems to be emerging as the de facto standard in a build with large format prismatic like CALB.... Its pretty hard to find room in a little car for more than 156v worth of anything over 100ah size!

If it would be possible to develop a better 'low end' price point by lowering the voltage to match the Warp9, and crank up the 'burst amps' as high as possible for the 10 seconds of accel from stoplights or passing I think it would appeal to LOTS of the mainstream conversions.

The other thing I am wondering about it whether it would make sense for the 'Jr.' to eliminate the extra machining required for fluid cooling since that adds a whole level of complexity to an 'average' build, and maximize the finned heatsink for air.... augmented with pre-installed fans, or assisted by air flow that can be channeled in from grill or hood? i.e. clearly separate the expectations and cost of the Jr versus the 1.....
d


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought Warp 9s were rated to 172V, and I think they've been taken higher. You can also have higher pack voltage and limit motor voltage which reduces any effects of voltage sag. I agree that ideally Jr. would have a lower peak voltage and higher peak amps, but my understanding is the nature of available components means higher voltage ratings with lower amp ratings are cheaper. Besides, if you're running 100 amp cells you don't want to go too much higher with current anyway.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I thought Warp 9s were rated to 172V, ... Besides, if you're running 100 amp cells you don't want to go too much higher with current anyway.


right... I just wanna KNOW. I would also love to see torque/hp curves at the max voltage so I can be sure the tranny can handle it, etc. with the max voltage and rated amps, since I don't need huge range, I would limit the battery amps to 5C, but take whatever motor amps the controller could dish out just for best acceleration.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> I thought Warp 9s were rated to 172V, and I think they've been taken higher. You can also have higher pack voltage and limit motor voltage which reduces any effects of voltage sag. I agree that ideally Jr. would have a lower peak voltage and higher peak amps, but my understanding is the nature of available components means higher voltage ratings with lower amp ratings are cheaper. Besides, if you're running 100 amp cells you don't want to go too much higher with current anyway.


 I thought many who use the Soliton1 or Zilla1k limit current from the pack with the controller. They can then run a high voltage pack to get high power at lower battery currents. A significant advantage if using lower capacity cells. For example you could get around 72kW, 96 H.P., from a 190V pack sagged to 180 with controller limiting battery current to 4C from 100Ah cells. Motor current would be higher and motor voltage lower than the pack values at lower rpms.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> besides the Warp9 is not rated for over 156v, right? ...


The limit is more like 170V to 190V; depending on time, current and commutator temperature, and not just the number of commutator segments. Finding out the *exact* commutation limit for various conditions entails destroying motors, which are invariably denied coverage under their "warranty" so this is very expensive data to obtain. 

That said, most modern programmable controllers let you limit the maximum voltage seen by the motor so that a much higher battery voltage can be safely used. If this function didn't work in our controllers we would have zorched the WarP-9s on our dyno a long time ago! 



dtbaker said:


> The other thing I am wondering about it whether it would make sense for the 'Jr.' to eliminate the extra machining required for fluid cooling since that adds a whole level of complexity to an 'average' build, and maximize the finned heatsink for air....


It takes a few minutes to drill the holes for the liquid cooling passages in either controller enclosure but several hours to machine the fins (particularly the deep and wavy fins of the Soliton1). Furthermore, it takes a noticeable amount of assembly time (~15 minutes or so) to install the fans, so it is the provisions for air cooling that add vastly more to the cost, and not the liquid cooling passages! 

Indeed, if it were up to me (and it obviously isn't) there wouldn't be any fins or fans on our enclosures at all - you would have to use liquid cooling if you wanted more than a Curtis 1231C's level of performance.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> That said, most modern programmable controllers let you limit the maximum voltage seen by the motor so that a much higher battery voltage can be safely used.


A bit of clarification: motor will see PWM peaks, even higher than DC bus voltage.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> It takes a few minutes to drill the holes for the liquid cooling passages in either controller enclosure but several hours to machine the fins (particularly the deep and wavy fins of the Soliton1). Furthermore, it takes a noticeable amount of assembly time (~15 minutes or so) to install the fans, so it is the provisions for air cooling that add vastly more to the cost, and not the liquid cooling passages!



hhmmmm, I guess with relatively low volume it hasn't been cost effective to cast the enclosure and get the fins for 'free'.... or switch to straight fins that could be an extrusion. 

Along those lines though, would it help *much* to add a heat-sink on the BOTTOM of the Soliton units? It depends on where the heat-generating components are of course. For example, I mounted my Curtis controller horizontally, with a heat sink on the bottom, and jam air from the outside over the heat sink... only moves air when you are moving, but thats when you're generating heat.  Do you think a bottom mount heatsink would help much with a Soliton if airflow was significant?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> Along those lines though, would it help *much* to add a heat-sink on the BOTTOM of the Soliton units?


Nope. Not one bit. The Soliton-series is, unlike some other brands, designed for optimal heat dissipation out of the box without the need for ugly cludges and other home made modifications. The heat sink is exactly where it has to be, the whole casing is designed to give optimal cooling of the transistors, empirically tested on the dyno.

However, it's extremely hard to dissipate all the heat generated from running the controller at maximum power with air only and that's why water cooling is optional in case the air cooling is not enough for your needs.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> hhmmmm, I guess with relatively low volume it hasn't been cost effective to cast the enclosure and get the fins for 'free'.... or switch to straight fins that could be an extrusion.


We do use castings - and they even have the fins molded in - but they still need a lot of machining to become a final product.



dtbaker said:


> ... Do you think a bottom mount heatsink would help much with a Soliton if airflow was significant?


Nope. The liquid cooling ports tell you exactly where the heat-producing components of the controllers are located and that is pretty much opposite the lid (bottom) on both of them.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Nope. The liquid cooling ports tell you exactly where the heat-producing components of the controllers are located and that is pretty much opposite the lid (bottom) on both of them.


ok...but I am sure that MORE air, say from a duct from front grill or directed up from belly might help a little?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> ok...but I am sure that MORE air, say from a duct from front grill or directed up from belly might help a little?


Well it won't hurt... though I have to admit I am a bit puzzled by your fixation on this. The Soliton1 heatsink is capable of dissipating 600-800W with the built-in fans, increasing to at least 2500W with 1gpm (4lpm) through the liquid cooling ports. In contrast, the bottom of the enclosure might contribute an additional 5W of dissipative capacity to the enclosure. Blow lots of air on it and maybe you'll bump that up to 10W. It would be impossible to notice any difference, in other words.

That said, one thing you can do to improve the performance of any controller - not just ours - is to make sure the waste heat produced by the motor doesn't affect the controller. One good way of doing that is to use an external blower to force air through the motor and ducting to redirect the hot exhaust out of the "engine" compartment (this also protects the motor from "Foreign Object Debris" (FOD) and keeps it cooler, especially if it spends a lot of time below 2000 rpm or so). 

Keep in mind that the Soliton1 is ~99% efficient while a WarP-9 is 80-90% efficient (lower eff. at higher current), so the motor produces 10x-20x more waste heat than the Soliton1 on average. Not to name any names here, but in one installation I saw the Soliton1's heat exchanger mounted behind the A/C condenser. This worked fine when actually driving, but when idling at a traffic light the Soliton1's temperature would immediately start climbing - when you'd otherwise think it was barely having to work (4-8kW output). This was because mounting the heat exchanger in the engine compartment let it pick up the waste heat from the motor (and controller!?) and when the fan for the condenser kicked on it got another dose of hot air from it, too. Heat exchangers only help cool the controller if they are located *away* from other sources of heat...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> ... a bit puzzled by your fixation on this. The Soliton1 heatsink is capable of dissipating 600-800W with the built-in fans, increasing to at least 2500W with 1gpm (4lpm) through the liquid cooling ports. In contrast, the bottom of the enclosure might contribute an additional 5W of dissipative capacity to the enclosure. Blow lots of air on it and maybe you'll bump that up to 10W. It would be impossible to notice any difference, in other words.
> 
> That said, one thing you can do to improve the performance of any controller - not just ours - is to make sure the waste heat produced by the motor doesn't affect the controller. One good way of doing that is to use an external blower to force air through the motor and ducting to redirect the hot exhaust out of the "engine" compartment ...the motor produces 10x-20x more waste heat than the Soliton1 on average.


...great info...
I just tend to ask a lot of questions when in planning phase. I'd like to seal up the belly and grill for aero, and want to make sure I direct enough cool air where it needs to go and leave enough 'exhaust' space to get it to flow.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> The limit is more like 170V to 190V; depending on time, current and commutator temperature, and not just the number of commutator segments. Finding out the *exact* commutation limit for various conditions entails destroying motors, which are invariably denied coverage under their "warranty" so this is very expensive data to obtain.
> 
> That said, most modern programmable controllers let you limit the maximum voltage seen by the motor so that a much higher battery voltage can be safely used. If this function didn't work in our controllers we would have zorched the WarP-9s on our dyno a long time ago!


Damn day job keeps me from finishing and sharing my analysis of the Electrabishi. Here are some results that show that my DC motor model http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/dc-motor-theory-and-model-39931.html can recognize comm failure before the motor is vaporized. Basically I use the motor saturation curve with the motor current and RPM to calculate the motor voltage. Commutation failure is signalled by a motor voltage that is too high as you can see on the attached graphs.
Tess or Qer, If you have a Soliton dump from a dyno run that ends with a zorched motor, I would see what we can learn from it.
Gerhard


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## JonB (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi All, JonB here,

Busy converting a FWD 1/2 ton utility to EV, looking for all sorts of bits. Anyone know where i could source Soliton Controllers, throttle controls, etc here in South Africa.

Cheers


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

We don't have a dealer in Africa... If a reputable company were to approach us about being a dealer there we'd welcome it, but so far the only inquiries we've gotten from Africa have been from this deranged Nigerian who wants to send us an overly large cashier's cheque for a controller and have us refund the difference... "seems legit"


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## athlon (Feb 27, 2012)

HI , I have a question for you .. why are you using an Ethernet port instead of serial comunication.

I like the ethernet ( I'm a webmaster so for me web based is the best) but a lot of people prefer serial or Can


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

athlon said:


> HI , I have a question for you .. why are you using an Ethernet port instead of serial comunication.


All laptops have ethernet. Virtually no laptops have serial anymore.


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## athlon (Feb 27, 2012)

I know and personally il like the Ethernet more.

But from a business point of view both Serial and CAN are automotive rated (CAN much more) and also CAN works also in disturbed environment with a lot of EMI , I don't know if Ethernet can work in a noisy place like a running controller ( or you can program the Soliton only with the main voltage turned off ?).

Working with the controller on ( or even with the vehicle moving) is a great thing for debugging and optimization , but you need a connection able to work with a lot of interference coming out from the controller itself and all the power cables


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

athlon said:


> But from a business point of view both Serial and CAN are automotive rated (CAN much more) and also CAN works also in disturbed environment with a lot of EMI , I don't know if Ethernet can work in a noisy place like a running controller ( or you can program the Soliton only with the main voltage turned off ?).


Ethernet uses transformers on both ends of the connection and balanced, differential signalling. It's pretty much the most noise-robust communication standard that still uses wires.

So yes you can change settings on a Soliton controller while it is actually operating (though we do warn against that for the obvious safety reasons). Besides, how else would our data logging program work?!


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## athlon (Feb 27, 2012)

well this are good news for me ... I'm the only one to push for ethernet , everybody also here want CAN ... but for me Ethernet is much easier to manage and don't need computer adapter , program or other stuff.

How much do you thing is the added price for a controller to make it "ethernet" compatible ... the Raspberry Arm computer cost 25$ so I think adding an Ethernet interface will cost less


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

athlon said:


> ...
> How much do you thing is the added price for a controller to make it "ethernet" compatible ... the Raspberry Arm computer cost 25$ so I think adding an Ethernet interface will cost less


I can't quite figure out what you are asking here... Are you trying to make your own controller and want it to have an ethernet interface?


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## athlon (Feb 27, 2012)

Yes and no ... A friend of mine build his own controller and there was a lot of talking about interfaces ... I was thinking about ethernet like a printer server or a router ... but nobody liked .... (Typical aswer was .." I nobody use Ethernet on controller there is a good reason") ... so wen I found the Eth interface on Soliton i was surprised .. an i'm not alone anymore  

(Btw I like ethernet a lot because I use Linux computer and configuration software are for Win only)


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

I greatly appreciate Tesseract's choice and hope that it replaces the historical choices of dedicated Windows app or -- shudder -- special hardware just to program the controller.

I'll be running Ethernet to a WiFi gateway so I can program the controller from my phone


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

Test drove the Rabbit EV 

http://www.evalbum.com/4204

first test runs went fine, car is fun to drive, yeahhh

but on the third test run the controller error light stays on and the webpage back reads back that the "throttle is not at zero"

Its the evnetic throttle and is at zero so I cannot figure out whats wrong. Its running 1.4 so I will update today and see if that fixes things.

Any other ideas??

Steve


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

hbthink said:


> ...
> but on the third test run the controller error light stays on and the webpage back reads back that the "throttle is not at zero"
> 
> Its the evnetic throttle and is at zero so I cannot figure out whats wrong. Its running 1.4 so I will update today and see if that fixes things....


Check the entire throttle linkage or cable for binding. Re-calibrate the throttle. Try adding 3-5% of deadband as recommended in the manual. This is not a problem with 1.4.


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## hbthink (Dec 21, 2010)

OK that worked, I set the deadband to 5 and it cleared the code. The throttle linkage works it was all the way closed at all times, so that wasn't the problem. Could it be noise? or maybe my electrical connections aren't the best, I will clean them up. One problem I found quickly is that my TDK lambda DC/DC with 18 amp output was crippled by the current required by the brake pump, so I will put a small AGM battery inline with the DC source to help with current spike requests. 

The Evnetics controller is really easy to install and is absolutely quiet and very tame. The throttle response is smooth as silk and the car makes no noise just the slightest humm from below, about the same amount of noise that a Nissan Leaf makes! 

So far I'm a happy camper not to setup the gauges. Looks like I need some voltage divider circuits for both voltage and amp readings from batteries. So time to set those up today and also the brake and reverse inputs.

Later
Steve


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

hbthink said:


> ...Could it be noise?


It could be noise from bad connections, sure, but it's unlikely that noise from anything else could cause a problem. It's not unusual to need to use a little deadband even with our throttle assembly.

Thanks for the comments, btw - its always nice to see happy customers.


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