# Help me plan my Van conversion!



## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Hello there!

I have to admit I had a hard time following your math so I'm going to start from the beginning.

I did some research and from what I can find, the 2001 model year Sienna has a payload capacity of only about 1,300 pounds, which is probably enough for you, your batteries, and maybe some stuff, but mostly batteries. A passenger van is much better suited for carrying people than cargo and at 4,000 pounds empty, I would consider another vehicle. You may find that you can make do with something as small and light as a station wagon, maybe smaller still, but I suspect you'll be looking for a donor vehicle more along the lines of a light truck or an actual delivery van. Things to look for are a high payload to curb weight ratio and preferably something with a manual transmission.

Batteries are heavy, you're probably looking at a pack weighing hundreds of pounds, maybe more. Keeping this in mind, energy density is going to be key. You're on the right track with lithium batteries; they're light, long lived, are low maintenance, and you only need to calculate for 80% DOD. That said, the cells you picked out have an energy density of ~37.76 watts per pound. While I'm only familiar with CALB cells, I know that their 180Ah cells have a watt to pound ratio of ~46.64:1 and their 100Ah cells ~45.39:1, because of this I would recommend either of those instead.

I think you should look at what you plan on doing with your EV, specifically:

What do you plan on delivering?
How heavy are the things you're delivering?
How far do you need to drive?
How fast?

After answering these, how to proceed should be much clearer.

Best of luck, I hope this helps.


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

zeroexcelcior said:


> Hello there!
> 
> I have to admit I had a hard time following your math so I'm going to start from the beginning.
> 
> ...


[*]What do you plan on delivering? Flowers, back seats removed. 2 people Front seats.
[*]How heavy are the things you're delivering? 7 buckets x20lb = 140 lbs.
[*]How far do you need to drive? 134 miles
[*]How fast? 75 mph.

http://ask.cars.com/2009/01/2009-sienna-pay.html
*2009 Sienna payload capacity * Front-wheel drive:
CE, LE: standard 1,420 pounds,

Yeah, the van won't be able to handle the battery and delivery payload, so I guess I should use the Toyota T100 SR5 truck instead:
1995 Toyota T100 SR5 extended Cab Payload: 2,150

Now about the Calb batteries you mentioned, despite having a higher amphour, they lack high Output Voltage. However, my needs with a set configuration favoring these batteries resulted in a lower battery weight, but the lithium is still more denser depending on which pack of batteries you're choosing to buy.

BATTERY web info.:
http://lithiumstorage.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=&products_id=9180Ah,

CALB BATTERY (Most W/lb)
180 Amp hours
Nominal Voltage: 3.2 volts
weight: 12.35 lbs

Lithium Battery (Most Watt hour/pound)
200 Amp hours
Nominal Voltage: 3.2 volts
weight: 12.34 lbs

The Calb battery only has 46.60 W/Lb which is less than the Lithium Sky 51.86 W/Lb. Lithium Sky wins...

According to my calculations I need:
-1044 amps (450 amps * driving for 2.32 hours = 1044 amp hours)
-258 nominal volts
116 watts/horespower

Using Lithium ion(not Calb variety):

1044 amps / 1 battery 200amps = 5.22 batteries parallel (rows)
250 volts / 1 battery 3.2 volts = 78.125 batteries in-series (columns)

78.125 x 5.22 = 407.81 batteries needed.
407.81 x 12.34 lb/battery = 5032.40625 lb battery pack system.

PS: Despite this advance in battery choice, the amount of weight is still too high for the EV to carry. Project Planning is still failed...thanks for helping advancing its success though. I appreciate it.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Something must be going wrong. You definitely don't need 900kWh of batteries to accomplish your range goal at that speed and with that weight. Are you sure you are driving the van pedal floored all the time?

Let's say you have 256V (80x 3.2V lithium cells). If these are 180Ah and you paraller 6 of them you get 180Ah x 3.2V x 80V = 276kWh of energy. You can get about 1.75 hours of driving if you use 256V x 600A all the time. That's about 6000lbs of batteries.

I also believe none of mentioned motors can take 600A loads continously.

The car you linked (RAV4) only has 31kWh of batteries and can go 100 miles at 55mph. That's 156V/200Ah. It consumes about 300Wh/mile at that speed. You are going to go faster so consumption per mile will be higher. I'll throw a figure out of hat: 600 watts/mile. If you want to go 140 miles, you need 84kWh of batteries. At 256V it means 328Ah batteries (180Ah x 2 = 360Ah), which should do. That's less than 2000lbs of batteries.

Feel free to correct my thinking and maths.


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## zeroexcelcior (Aug 2, 2011)

Mora is right, your motor shouldn't draw more than 600 amps peak, let alone continuous. Unless I'm reading the data sheet wrong, the 180Ah CALB cells can put out up to 1,000 amps for bursts up to ten seconds in duration. Even under load, a series configuration should work just fine. As for the controller, I'm not familiar with Zilla but 300v/600A sounds like it'll work for this build. An alternative controller to look into would be EVNetics' Soliton Jr. which is rated at 340v/500A.

Given the requirements, I'd recommend a three quarter ton or one ton pickup truck (with bed cap) for the donor vehicle and 90-100 CALB 180Ah cells in series for the pack. This should yield 51.8 to 57.6kW/h at 288 to 320v, a range of 130 to 150 miles (at 300 watts per mile and 80% depth of discharge), and weigh 1112 to 1235 pounds.

I think you have the right idea for motor selection, an 11" motor such as Netgain's WarP-11 should be a perfect fit for your conversion.

I hope this helps.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

If I remember right CALB cells can deliver 4C continously(4C, 4x 180Ah = 720A). If you paraller two you'll get 1440A continous rating. If your voltage sags down to 2.8V per cell you have 224V volts. 1400A x 224V = 313kW. Over 550Nm of torque when using Warp11HV. That is safe "peak" power. Your real peak power might be even more. But again you don't drive your van pedal floored all the time I suppose. So you are using something like 200A continously when going 80mph. (600Wh/mile figure)

If average consumption figure is 600Wh/mile then your power requirement is something like 50kW. Your motor needs to withstand this continous rating without overheating. If you are driving that 130 mile trip in one go you should pay attention to motor temperatures and cooling.

I'd like to see this project done. This should be well doable.


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

yangsword9x said:


> 5)Driving Habit/Distance:
> 65-80 mph Highway
> = 133.7 miles, 139 minutes(2.32hours) Total
> 
> ...


Where did you get the 2600 amp hours from? I didn't see it anywhere behind the link.

That RAV4 behind the link uses 200Ah cells. One cell is 200Ah and 3.2V. There are 48 cells like this in series (voltage adds up in series). So 3.2V x 48 = 153,6V. Battery pack voltage is claimed to be 156V. Close enough. Battery pack capacity is 153,6V * 200Ah = 30720Wh, or 30,7kWh.

Now when you know capacity and range at 55mph you can calculate a rough estimate of consumption of kWh at that speed:

30720Wh / 100 miles = 307,2 Wh/mile.

Consumption at 35mph:

30720Wh / 150 miles = 204,8 Wh/mile

Now back to your conversion. You need a rough estimate of how many Wh/mile you will be using. That ~300 Wh/mile at 55mph is good for RAV4-like car. If you use 300 Wh/mile and want to go 100 miles you simply need 300 Wh/mile * 100 miles = 30 000Wh pack (30kWh). At 80mph your car will likely use way more than 300Wh/mile. You should always oversize your pack so that you don't use more than 80% of your available capacity. This is to prolong battery life considerably.


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

mora said:


> Where did you get the 2600 amp hours from? I didn't see it anywhere behind the link.
> 
> That RAV4 behind the link uses 200Ah cells. One cell is 200Ah and 3.2V. There are 48 cells like this in series (voltage adds up in series). So 3.2V x 48 = 153,6V. Battery pack voltage is claimed to be 156V. Close enough. Battery pack capacity is 153,6V * 200Ah = 307,200Wh, or 307.2kWh.
> 
> ...



It has been a while since I was calculating this project so I forgot how I ended up with 2600 amp hours, lol! I assume that I probably made it up with a guess (Divided his watt/hours by his voltage, to get his amps).

Also, I was calculating my range for the batteries based on the amps ALONE! Was that wrong? I don't know, but you guys seem to be calculating it by watts instead. Sure watts will include the voltage/power I need to run at 80 mph, but to keep it from getting mixed up I simply just isolated the amps needed first, since I already considered the amount of in-series voltage batteries.

But yes according to your calculations you are correct about his battery configurations. Thank you for your help in correcting that up for me 8p.

Right now I'm saving up money with my new job!
So while I don't have enough money for the full conversion, I'm still fixing the planning process, and thanks to you I'll get right on that calculation about the Watt hours/mile X3.

PS: Lets see here....Wh/mile...
133.7 miles total.
Watts hours needed...no idea! LOL!

I don't know the amount of power I need to achieve 80 mph, I just assumed a electric vehicle could perform the same MPH if it just has the same HORSEPOWER as that of a GAS engine, since they have the same transmission/gear box. That's how I got my 1 KILOWATT = 1 HORSEPOWER rule from a dude on this forum.
The van had 190 horsepower = 190,000 watts.
-HOURs needed, I assumed was the hours I could get depending on how many amps I was using. My configuration was:

-258volts x 450 amps = 116.100 kilowatts or HorsePower.
but a new find on wiki said that its actually 746 watts = 1 horsepower
-258volts x 450 amps = 116.100 kilowatts/ 746 watts = 155.6 Direct Horsepower (without calculating efficiency, or loss of power through drivetrain, etc.)

So that is 450 amps consumed/hour = 450amp/hr.
I calculated the hours by google map...lol! = 139 minutes = 2.32 HOURS.

To avoid confusion I will calculate it the way you did, in watts hr.s
116,100 WATTS Hours * 2.32 HOURS = 269,352 Wh (watt hours needed for the entire trip= battery)
-269,352 Wh / 133.7 miles(traveled in those 2.32 hours) = 2,014.5998 Wh/miles

I'm guessing my Wh/miles is bigger because of the power difference...lol! X3

PPS: WHY DOESN'T ANYONE USE SILVER OXIDE BATTERIES?! ISN'T IT THE BEST ENERGY DENSITY OUT THERE WITH ZERO LOSS OF DISCHARGE?!!!

PPPS: Yes, I figured that I do not drive with all 116 WATT, OR 155 HORSEPOWER constantly all the time. So I would use less power, and yes I will have to find a way to cool the engine while driving at such a high power for so long. Maybe more air ventilation, or a internal fan?
Anyhow, I was doing more researching and might wanna change to a different motor, BRUSHLESS PERMANENT MAGNET MOTOR.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Check out this build and motor for full size pickup or van..

went over to topeka electric motor a few weeks ago and went for a ride in Kevins truck (full size pickup) this truck runns like it had a v8 in it..

Unbeleivable, runs perfect, cant say enought about this truck.

And best of all, this truck is proof you DON'T need 2000 amps and 300+ volts...

check out these links..
this is the motor and controller in the truck
http://electriccarinternational.com/...Engines-AC.php

Here is the link to the truck. Topeka Electric Motor
http://topekaelectricmotor.com/elect...les/ac-project


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

Ivansgarage said:


> Check out this build and motor for full size pickup or van..
> 
> went over to topeka electric motor a few weeks ago and went for a ride in Kevins truck (full size pickup) this truck runns like it had a v8 in it..
> 
> ...


I thought that since I was running 450 amps x 250 volts to get my required kilowatt/horsepower, I had to run 450 amps every hour. Since my destination required 2.32 hours of driving that would = 1044 amps needed in a parallel batteries configuration.

1044 amps / 1 battery 200amps = 5.22 batteries parallel (rows)
250 volts / 1 battery 3.2 volts = 78.125 batteries in-series (columns)

78.125 x 5.22 = 407.81 batteries needed.
407.81 x 12.34 lb/battery = 5032.40625 lb battery pack system.


I need to run around 133 miles, the truck in the link you gave me only ran 8 miles that consumed 36.5 amp hours ( he had 400 total amp hours).
That would still mean that I would need 600 amp hours to drive his truck for the 133 miles (His mpg consumption = 4.4 Amp hours/ mile).

Truck Specs:
-weight: 5945 lb.
-Battery config.: 102 volts, 400 amps (64 lithium batteries, 3.2 volts 200 amp hours each)
32 batteries in-series BY 2 PARALLEL = 64 total batteries.
-Top Speed: 70 mph
-45 mph = 5 amp hour/mile


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

mora said:


> Something must be going wrong. You definitely don't need 900kWh of batteries to accomplish your range goal at that speed and with that weight. Are you sure you are driving the van pedal floored all the time?
> 
> Let's say you have 256V (80x 3.2V lithium cells). If these are 180Ah and you paraller 6 of them you get 180Ah x 3.2V x 80V = 276kWh of energy. You can get about 1.75 hours of driving if you use 256V x 600A all the time. That's about 6000lbs of batteries.
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that the amps needed to be multiplied by the hours that you drive.
Would'nt that be 450 amps * 2.32 hours = 1044 amp hours needed total?

For each hour that I drive, my set up consumes 450 amps (If I'm flooring the pedal all the way down).
Since I'm driving for 2.32 hours, for each of those hours I have to consume 450 amps right?
SO the math would be 450 amps/hr.
450 amps * 2.32 hours = 1044 amp Hr. NEEDED! RIGHT!?


Amps must be consumed from the amps, not from the volts right? or watts?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Even floored all the time you don't run at full power for longer than your peak acceleration. My car (with a max of 400A) during about a 10 second acceleration period will only be over 200A for half that time, and over 300 for a second or two.

You don't consume amps or volts, you consume power, which can be measured in watt-seconds (joules) or kWh.


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Even floored all the time you don't run at full power for longer than your peak acceleration. My car (with a max of 400A) during about a 10 second acceleration period will only be over 200A for half that time, and over 300 for a second or two.
> 
> You don't consume amps or volts, you consume power, which can be measured in watt-seconds (joules) or kWh.



So you're saying that is I needed 100,000 watt hours,
I can configure the batteries to be 200 volt by 500 amp, or
500 volt by 200 amp, and both configurations would work regardless because its all about the watt hours consumed and not the amp hours?

Okay then, after all of you guy's input, since a 6000 lb truck can go 70 mph at only 102 volts by 400 amp battery configuration, than I'll just add a little more volts to that.

80 mph/ 70mph = 1.143 % more needed watt power to achieve (made up)
1.143% x 102 volts = 117 volts
3.2 volts x 37 in-series = 118.2 volts
37 x 12.34 lb = 456.58 lb
456.58 x 2 parallel = 913.16 lb


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Basically, but it's actually volts and amp-hours (AH) and 200V would be much more typical than 500V. amp-hours times voltage gives watt-hours. What is not as important for your calculations is AMPs, which is the momentary current draw. You must size your system to provide sufficient amps to move you, but the batteries are primarily sized based on the average wh/mile you will need.


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Both configurations would give you roughly the same energy. With high current, there may be more losses in the wires, but with high voltage, there may be more losses in the controller power electronics. So it all balances pretty well. 

100 kWhr by DIY EV standards, and even by professional EV standards is huge. 

900 kWhr is..... like a backup powersupply for a section of the grid


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

subcooledheatpump said:


> Both configurations would give you roughly the same energy. With high current, there may be more losses in the wires, but with high voltage, there may be more losses in the controller power electronics. So it all balances pretty well.
> 
> 100 kWhr by DIY EV standards, and even by professional EV standards is huge.
> 
> 900 kWhr is..... like a backup powersupply for a section of the grid


Well if high volts and amps causes problems for the controller and wires, then I'll just make them equal: 180 volt in-series by 180 amp hours parallel.
That should make the problems equal...

http://www.ev-power.eu/en/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-180Ah-LFMP12V180AH.html

BUT I'LL JUST USE THE BATTERY PACK LISTED ON MY FIRST POST, IT HAS CHARGER TOO!!!

180 volts / 12 volt battery = 18 batteries in-series
180 amp hr./ 180 amp hr. battery = 1 battery parallel
18 in-series x 1 parallel = 18 batteries total
18 x 56 lb = 936 lb total


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

It has a charger for that pack, or for the full series pack?


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## yangsword9x (Jul 24, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> It has a charger for that pack, or for the full series pack?


I've been busy with life, settling into my new job, but now i'm back XD

I couldn't find the battery through the link. It says product is no longer available.

I have decided to stop this project untill I can make some nanotech graphene supercapacitors for batterries. Till then...


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