# [EVDL] Thunder-Sky batteries



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90 AH and=
160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the larger the or=
der the lower the price.
Sincerely Duff Kindt
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Where are you located?

Bill Dennis



> Duff Kindt wrote:
> > I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90 AH and 160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the larger the order the lower the price.
> > Sincerely Duff Kindt
> > _______________________________________________
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Will these be single cell? Or full paks?
What is the estimated cost?

thanks,

Mike



> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > <div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">Where are
> > you located?
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm looking at purchasing some LiFePO4 batteries from China also, but 
I'm concerned about the high internal resistance reported on the TS 
brand. It results in quite a bit of voltage sag under high current 
conditions (as well as energy loss and heat production in the 
battery). I'm looking into about 5 different suppliers and plan on 
getting one sample cell from each that are in my price range to 
evaluate. All come complete with BMS/charge control.

Also, are you planning on using both the 90s and the 160s in the same 
conversion? If so, that is not a good idea, because the 90s will run 
out of juice well before the 160s.


> Duff Kindt wrote:
> 
> > I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90
> > AH and 160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I know only a few people that have worked w/ TS batteries, but all the have
independently agreed that the batteries would be better used as a paper
weight than to power an EV.

Pv
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I'm looking at purchasing some LiFePO4 batteries from China also, but
> I'm concerned about the high internal resistance reported on the TS
> brand. It results in quite a bit of voltage sag under high current
> conditions (as well as energy loss and heat production in the
> battery). I'm looking into about 5 different suppliers and plan on
> getting one sample cell from each that are in my price range to
> evaluate. All come complete with BMS/charge control.
>
> Also, are you planning on using both the 90s and the 160s in the same
> conversion? If so, that is not a good idea, because the 90s will run
> out of juice well before the 160s.
>


> Duff Kindt wrote:
> >
> > > I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90
> > > AH and 160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I live in Pullman, WA 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
America needs your thoughts:
http://www.SpeakUpForAmerica.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dennis [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder-Sky batteries

Where are you located?

Bill Dennis



> Duff Kindt wrote:
> > I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90 AH
> and 160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the larger the
> order the lower the price.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'd be interested depending on final price.

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Duff Kindt <[email protected]> 

> I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90 AH and 160 
> AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the larger the order the 
> lower the price. 
> Sincerely Duff Kindt 
> _______________________________________________ 
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/ 
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 
> 
_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Same here...but only 160's.

Charlie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder-Sky batteries


> I'd be interested depending on final price.
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: Duff Kindt <[email protected]>
>
>> I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90 AH 
>> and 160
>> AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the larger the order 
>> the
>> lower the price.
>> Sincerely Duff Kindt
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This sounds oh so familiar...

Good luck with your purchase. Personally, I wouldn't take
their brand new batteries even for free, but YMMV.

You've been warned.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
'01 in-AUDI-ble - handsome car with 0.4 MW AC drive (in works)




> Duff Kindt wrote:
> > I am ordering batteries directly from Thunder Sky . These will be 90
> > AH and 160 AH LFP's. If there is any interest let me know as the
> > larger the order the lower the price. Sincerely Duff Kindt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Victor,

Were your batteries the same type and chemistry that they are offering 
today? I heard that they switched from cobalt to iron phosphate.




> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > This sounds oh so familiar...
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Victor,
>
> Were your batteries the same type and chemistry that they are offering
> today? I heard that they switched from cobalt to iron phosphate.
>

It's the same company and their business ethics haven't changed...much.

At least now they will tell you (if you ask them) that their warranty is
only good if the batteries never leave China.

Once you load them on the boat, they don't even guarantee that they will
make good paper weights.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:35:54 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >> Victor,
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

These are the same reasons and logic the first group got ripped off.
You are not highlighting anything new, even with a new chemistry
you are supporting a company that has screwed our community.
With the many companies there are out there doing the same you
might at least try a different one.
Why give the same scum a chance to rape others? 
Its beyond moral its purely a lack of logic.




> Neon John wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:35:54 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> These are the same reasons and logic the first group got ripped off.
> You are not highlighting anything new, even with a new chemistry
> you are supporting a company that has screwed our community.
> With the many companies there are out there doing the same you
> might at least try a different one.
> Why give the same scum a chance to rape others? Its beyond moral its 
> purely a lack of logic.

No, it's DF (dumbf^ck) logic - if it's cheap, nothing else matters.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

when other companies are available with the same cost or cheaper 
The DF Logic makes even Walmart Bovine seem intelligent.




> cowtown wrote:
> >
> >> These are the same reasons and logic the first group got ripped off.
> >> You are not highlighting anything new, even with a new chemistry
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let's be careful with this thread, folks; please don't get into personal 
comments. Stick to facts. Make sure you're discussing EVs, not EVDL 
members.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm new to the EV group,
new to EVs
and new to the Chinese Battery escapades.

Can someone point me to those who have purchased and been burned.

What was the issue? No goods? Poor quality? etc?

What could be done to remedy the transaction?

The cost of traditional methods of LiFePO4 is beyond my means,
but this would be a reasonable stretch.

Without batteries in this ball park, I think I continue to guzzle gas -- so
I am
quite intrigued by the history of this thread.

Yes I could use AGM -- but I think the performance to weight is not there in
the application
I am planning.

thanks,

m






> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > Let's be careful with this thread, folks; please don't get into personal
> > comments. Stick to facts. Make sure you're discussing EVs, not EVDL
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Can someone point me to those who have purchased and been burned.
> What was the issue? No goods? Poor quality? etc?
> What could be done to remedy the transaction?

First of all, ThunderySky (TS) has pretty poor quality control, this has
been verified by list members who have actually traveled to the factory in
China.

Even still some batteries that TS makes, fail their own quality control.

Several years ago Victor at MetricMind put together a group buy of TS
batteries.
TS had a bunch of batteries sitting on a dock that failed their own QC,
not wanting to loose the money they put into building these batteries,
they bundled them up and shipped them to Victor.
TS has admitted they did this.

The only folks that could remedy this is TS, TS has stated that this
happened in the past, the transaction is completed, they have no intention
of doing anything about it.
They now say that the batteries are experimental and you get what you get,
no refunds, no returns.

Jukka Jarvinen (a European businessman) used to have an office at the TS
plant. He would go there and personally test every battery he bought to
make sure it worked before loading them into containers for shipment. Even
so, he ended up with a batch that had internal corrosion problems and they
failed within a year.
Now this was probably one of TS's largest foreign customers, for him their
policy was...you get what you get, no refunds, no returns.

Apparently some folks have gotten good batteries from TS, but it's a total
crap shoot.

Personally, even if I was willing to take the gamble, I'm not willing to
do business with a company that has demonstrated a policy of intentionally
screwing their customers.

>
> The cost of traditional methods of LiFePO4 is beyond my means,
> but this would be a reasonable stretch.
>
> Without batteries in this ball park, I think I continue to guzzle gas --
> so
> I am
> quite intrigued by the history of this thread.
>
> Yes I could use AGM -- but I think the performance to weight is not there
> in
> the application
> I am planning.
>
> thanks,
>
> m
>
>
>
>


> > EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >>
> >> Let's be careful with this thread, folks; please don't get into personal
> >> comments. Stick to facts. Make sure you're discussing EVs, not EVDL
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for 18 months
now.
They are still behaving like the day I bought them.

Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.ev-power.com.au


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Thunder-Sky-batteries-tp18330177p18510061.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are you experiencing at 
load? You say they are holding up, but at what performance?




> roddilkes wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At 100A, they're sagging below 100V. That's from a nominal 126V pack. =

Right now, pack is resting at 131V. So at .35C, I'm getting a 31V sag.

Bill

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Roger Heuckeroth [email protected]
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:04:47 -0400
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thunder-Sky batteries


Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are you experiencing at =

load? You say they are holding up, but at what performance?




> roddilkes wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sag is temperature dependent.
It is winter over here now with temperatures around 10-15 Celcius
But I can still pull 3C (270A) without sagging below 2.5V per cell.
Summer gives better performance in my experience.

TS LFP do not provide the same performance as say Optima SLAs.
For range there is no contest though.

Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.ev-power.com.au



Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are you experiencing at 
> load? You say they are holding up, but at what performance?
> 
> 
>


> roddilkes wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For me right now, cold is not the problem--in fact, just the opposite. 
Temps are 35 degrees C right now. And after I've climbed that hill to 
home, my pack is up to 45 degrees C. I'm actually going to have to add 
some active cooling.

Bill Dennis

roddilkes wrote:
> Sag is temperature dependent.
> It is winter over here now with temperatures around 10-15 Celcius
> But I can still pull 3C (270A) without sagging below 2.5V per cell.
> Summer gives better performance in my experience.
>
> TS LFP do not provide the same performance as say Optima SLAs.
> For range there is no contest though.
>
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
> www.ev-power.com.au
>
>
>
> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> 
>> Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are you experiencing at 
>> load? You say they are holding up, but at what performance?
>>
>>
>>


> roddilkes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

TS LFP (Iron Phosphate) and LCP (Cobalt) are different animals.
LFP cells have a lower internal resistance so don't self heat much.
At least from my experience...

Rod


Bill Dennis-2 wrote:
> 
> For me right now, cold is not the problem--in fact, just the opposite. 
> Temps are 35 degrees C right now. And after I've climbed that hill to 
> home, my pack is up to 45 degrees C. I'm actually going to have to add 
> some active cooling.
> 
> Bill Dennis
> 
> roddilkes wrote:
>> Sag is temperature dependent.
>> It is winter over here now with temperatures around 10-15 Celcius
>> But I can still pull 3C (270A) without sagging below 2.5V per cell.
>> Summer gives better performance in my experience.
>>
>> TS LFP do not provide the same performance as say Optima SLAs.
>> For range there is no contest though.
>>
>> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>> www.ev-power.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> 
>>> Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are you experiencing at 
>>> load? You say they are holding up, but at what performance?
>>>
>>>
>>>


> roddilkes wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells running in my EV for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Bill,

I was thinking about your battery configuration and have some 
thoughts. Normally, when Lithium series parallel battery packs are 
constructed by manufacturers they first wire sets of batteries in 
parallel, and then string those sets in series. The parallel packs 
essentially become one big cell electrically. Each parallel pack has 
an overcharge voltage regulator that limits the voltage to the 
specified level. Then a separate circuit monitors the voltage during 
discharge and cuts off the pack if any parallel pack voltage gets to 
the minimum discharge level.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you probably wired all the 90 Ah cells in 
series, and all the 200 Ah cells in series, and then just paralleled 
the two series strings. Is that right? If so, I'm wondering if 
instead of the strings working together, the weaker string may be 
pulling the stronger string down with it.

Let's assume the 90 Ah string has more sag than the 200 Ah string. 
So, could the 200 Ah string then essentially be handicapped by the 90 
Ah string and some of the current out of the 200 Ah string is going to 
the motor and some current is going to the 90 Ah string.

If this is indeed what is happening you could verify this with a set 
of shunts and ameters. When you put the pack under load you could see 
where the current is coming from.

If I'm wrong here, please someone correct my logic. I am a EE by 
degree, but practice more environmental engineering than electrical 
engineering. Just a thought...


> Bill Dennis wrote:
> 
> > For me right now, cold is not the problem--in fact, just the opposite.
> > Temps are 35 degrees C right now. And after I've climbed that hill to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Rod,
I sent a quote request earlyer today for your bms
setup.
I have another question though. What is the open
circuit voltage after the lfp cells come off the
charger. Say after at least 5minutes.
I thinking of adding more cells to above my current
sla battery setup if I go with lfp200 to compensate
for say. I need to be below 190volts on my raptor 1200
controller before I precharge it or bad things can
happen 
Thanks,
Jeff McCabe
--- roddilkes <[email protected]> wrote:

> 
> TS LFP (Iron Phosphate) and LCP (Cobalt) are
> different animals.
> LFP cells have a lower internal resistance so don't
> self heat much.
> At least from my experience...
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> Bill Dennis-2 wrote:
> > 
> > For me right now, cold is not the problem--in
> fact, just the opposite. 
> > Temps are 35 degrees C right now. And after I've
> climbed that hill to 
> > home, my pack is up to 45 degrees C. I'm actually
> going to have to add 
> > some active cooling.
> > 
> > Bill Dennis
> > 
> > roddilkes wrote:
> >> Sag is temperature dependent.
> >> It is winter over here now with temperatures
> around 10-15 Celcius
> >> But I can still pull 3C (270A) without sagging
> below 2.5V per cell.
> >> Summer gives better performance in my experience.
> >>
> >> TS LFP do not provide the same performance as say
> Optima SLAs.
> >> For range there is no contest though.
> >>
> >> Regards, Rod Dilkes
> >> www.ev-power.com.au
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are
> you experiencing at 
> >>> load? You say they are holding up, but at what
> performance?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>


> roddilkes wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jeff,

OC voltage can be up to 4.2V (safety limit) but drops back pretty quickly to
3.6V.
Nominal voltage is 3.2V - 3.3V, the cells will drop back to this voltage on
discharge and stay there until about 70-80% discharged.

Rod


Jeff Mccabe wrote:
> 
> Hey Rod,
> I sent a quote request earlyer today for your bms
> setup.
> I have another question though. What is the open
> circuit voltage after the lfp cells come off the
> charger. Say after at least 5minutes.
> I thinking of adding more cells to above my current
> sla battery setup if I go with lfp200 to compensate
> for say. I need to be below 190volts on my raptor 1200
> controller before I precharge it or bad things can
> happen 
> Thanks,
> Jeff McCabe
> --- roddilkes <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> TS LFP (Iron Phosphate) and LCP (Cobalt) are
>> different animals.
>> LFP cells have a lower internal resistance so don't
>> self heat much.
>> At least from my experience...
>> 
>> Rod
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Dennis-2 wrote:
>> > 
>> > For me right now, cold is not the problem--in
>> fact, just the opposite. 
>> > Temps are 35 degrees C right now. And after I've
>> climbed that hill to 
>> > home, my pack is up to 45 degrees C. I'm actually
>> going to have to add 
>> > some active cooling.
>> > 
>> > Bill Dennis
>> > 
>> > roddilkes wrote:
>> >> Sag is temperature dependent.
>> >> It is winter over here now with temperatures
>> around 10-15 Celcius
>> >> But I can still pull 3C (270A) without sagging
>> below 2.5V per cell.
>> >> Summer gives better performance in my experience.
>> >>
>> >> TS LFP do not provide the same performance as say
>> Optima SLAs.
>> >> For range there is no contest though.
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>> >> www.ev-power.com.au
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> Just out of curiosity, how much voltage sag are
>> you experiencing at 
>> >>> load? You say they are holding up, but at what
>> performance?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>


> roddilkes wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Just FYI I have a set of 45 TS LFP90AHA cells
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Suzuki Mighty Boy, the tiniest ute in the world, almost.
60km usable range.
You would require at least LFP160AHA and more like LFP200AHA for a large
vehicle.




> TODD KING wrote:
> >
> > Curious - What vehicle are you pushing Rod, and what's its range? We were
> > thinking of using 45 TS LFP090AHA for an S-10 conversion, but aren't sure
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rod ,
Thanks for the info.
Jeff


> --- roddilkes <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Jeff,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZXYKCg==


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Can you send me the specifications for your battery management system, or
provide a link where I can download it? 

Thanks,

~mark




> milo0105 wrote:
> >
> > Why do not consider Hipower lifepo4 battery? Compared with our
> > competitors, we have better quality control, 2 years quantity, as well as
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> milo0105 wrote:
> >
> > Why do not consider Hipower lifepo4 battery? Compared with our competitors,
> > we have better quality control, 2 years quantity, as well as fantastic BMS
> ...


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