# '69 VW Beetle Electric Grocery Getter on the cheap



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Everybody here is going to try to convince you to run lithium chemistry batteries, citing all sort of nefarious schemes, but you won't be able to do really dirt cheap. Your conversion. I'm doing lead acid, and I don't care what they think. YMMV. Sounds like you have done some homework, which is a good thing. stick around some more, enjoy the forum, and welcome aboard. I am running 12 v batteries, because I think it suits the Kostov motor more, but the opinion is that if you have the room, the 6 or 8 v batteries are better. I went with an alternator since it was mostly dangling in the engine compartment waiting to be used. Others will chime in with their different thoughts soon and they are all valid for their application. remember YMMV..


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Golf cart batteries are my only option at my price point - spend now or spend later, I guess I am in the spend later camp...I hope to do the entire conversion for under $4k. So far I have $750 invested in the car and partial conversion and $250 invested in a disc brake conversion. a quick online window shopping trip puts me around $1300 for motor and controller, $900 to $1200 on batteries, $300 on misc electric parts, and $400 on a charger.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

marklaken said:


> I do not intend to install a voltmeter or amp meter. I would like to install a range indicator (I saw one for around $50 online somewhere).
> 
> My value system is as follows and will dictate my system purchases:
> Safety > Durability > Simplicity > Range > Speed > Comfort


I can't imagine an EV without Volt/amp meters. At least get a Volt meter. They don't have to cost that much, you can get digitals for $5-15.

8v golf cart batteries should work fine, but i don't know if you'll get the speed you need off just 72V.

12v charger should be fine, you can run it along with the pack charger and leave it connected, but check it for leakage. Some drain a little power from the batt when not plugged in.

Disk brake upgrade is great. Is yours the bolt on or spindle replace type?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I put a couple pictures in an album.

Regarding meters, what advantage do the meters provide over a range meter? Is it for diagnostics?

Thanks for the heads up on the downside of the lead acid battery - is acid spray and venting an issue with a gel based lead battery? The decrease in performance at half charge is especially noteworthy and would push me to 12 - 6v batteries as my minimum criteria. 

As far as Lithium, are there good sources for used lithium batteries and what are some of the more affordable charger makes/model. I will have to do some research here...

I know I won't need a 65 mph car, but I would want acceleration to be acceptable for street use (35 mph streets with lots of stoplights). I have old vws and am used to being the slowpoke, but will my general setup be worse than say a split window bus (0-40 mph in about 30 seconds)?


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## madmike8 (Jun 16, 2011)

gottdi said:


> For your needs. Your needs are really not realistic. In real world driving you will want a vehicle that can do freeway speeds with no problem. You will want to be able to scoot out fast if needed. Not that you must have it but for safety sake you don't want a slug of a car. It leaves a sour impression on people.


I drive every day 12-15 miles round trip for 10 years now. My max speed is 45mph. My car hasn't hit 65 mph since the first week I bought it. What's not realistic? What's not real world about that? Maybe a <65mph car doesn't fit your needs, but for some of us it does... 

I'm with ya on the lithiums though... Small (low speed-short range) lithium packs are not that expensive. 50-60ah CALBs or Headways is what I'm looking at, but I'll have a lighter car.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Lead/acid batteries.....Been there-done that-bought the tee shirt, got the tattoo and class ring....

1-Do NOT buy the batteries with the top-threaded posts. They pull out, loosen up in the lead and burn off because they are good for 75 amps max...get the traditional tapered lead post type. 

2-They require service every 4-6 weeks. water, cleaning and retorque posts.

Otherwise, they make a great MK-1 vehicle. Your learner. Something to be constantly improved on. {little things}

Yes, most chargers will leak back somewhat when unplugged. Not much, they just do. You can use a charging relay to stop this. Have it turn on when the car is plugged in. Then kick out when unplugged. Simple. Use an AC line voltage motor contactor.

Everyone has a "first" EV. It really changes the way you think about most everything.

Miz


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, lead acid is your choice!
Lithium can cost 2-2.5k$ instead of 1k$ but will weight a third and take half place.
Anyway, you can expect the upgrade to lithium in a year or so if she like the car....

72v can be fine for a low speed conversion, but I suggest to you to go for the new line of SPM Alltrax controller. They have integrated cooling systems and seem better than Axe series for a similar price.

Also, I have a D&D ES-15-A comming from my motorcycle to sold... If you are interested: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56797

Selected the right gear can be important for the proper life of motor because the car will probably be able to start and maintain speed in third gear all the time, but motor will suffer of overheating.
Maintain high rpm (>3000) can be important for small motor for proper cooling.
So how do you think she will drive the car?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

marklaken said:


> Regarding meters, what advantage do the meters provide over a range meter? Is it for diagnostics?
> 
> I have old vws and am used to being the slowpoke, but will my general setup be worse than say a split window bus (0-40 mph in about 30 seconds)?


Definitely for diagnostics, but also for driving. What range meter are you looking at? The issue there is that range is a factor of many things, which can be difficult for an electronic device to figure out. With a voltmeter and experience you know what range you have left based on the sag (For lead, for lithium you need to measure in and out).

Being used to a slug you should be fine performance-wise. I don't know your motor specs, but running my 31B on 120V lead I can do 0-40 in ~6 sec.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for the input everyone. I already know more than I did after about a year of casual internet searching regarding EV conversions. One thing I forgot about was the tax credit for converting a car to electric. Does anyone know when that tax credit phases out (Is it still 10% and is it still good for 2012?) - perhaps that could help me get to lithium ion batteries...

in regards to disc brakes, it is a quick bolt in swap on post '66 beetles which have ball joint front suspension.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

right now, alltrax spm72v 400amp is the max available size - it looks like there are some higher amperage 72v alltrax controllers coming soon...should I wait?...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

marklaken said:


> in regards to disc brakes, it is a quick bolt in swap on post '66 beetles which have ball joint front suspension.


Sounds good. I didn't know what I was getting into and used a spindle swap kit that turned rather expensive and took over a month.

Conversion tax credit is gone.


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## mk4gti (May 6, 2011)

Cool thread since I'm going through the same dilemmas...

I keep hearing that it's very common to "murder" the first battery pack. I say start with lead and get it on the road, save up for lithiums. Yeah you do the work twice but keeps you busy in the garage 

As for the 72V, I'm in the same boat as well. As gottdi said, plan your battery boxes for expansion because it will almost be certain she will ask for more power, thus you will need to go to 96V.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Buy one motor that can do 72 volts or 156 and your good to go..


Pete, won't a 72V motor provide the same speed at a lower voltage than a 156 motor would? 

Based on my experience, my 144V motor would not be able to get to 40 mph on just 72V, even in 4th gear. But you said you were able to do 65 mph in your ghia on 72V, I assume because that is what the motor is wound for.


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## Ace_bridger (Nov 22, 2011)

piotrsko said:


> Everybody here is going to try to convince you to run lithium chemistry batteries, citing all sort of nefarious schemes, but you won't be able to do really dirt cheap.


How refreshing. Yes, lithium makes complete sense but I too am going for lead, cheap lead, for my mk1 car. I will go lithium in the long run and, yes, it will cost more in total but I want to get up and running and I only have a 12 mile commute (in total) so will go big on lead to reduce the C loading on the pack. I am going for lead and, I hope, won't be struck down for it!!!

Good luck with the bug and tell your wife to go easy on the gas pedal and try to drive in such a way that she'll never need to touch the dreaded brake pedal!!! Nice christian driving is what we need!!


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Some quick back of the envelope calcs show rapidly escalating cost if I go 72v, lithium battery powered with a controller and motor that can be upgraded to 96v in the future (Extra cost of roughly: $2k in batteries, $900 on motor, $1k on controller, $200 on charger). I don't know if it would still be "on the cheap", but I do understand the reasoning and it is a significant dilemma. 

I hope to have it figured out and parts ordered by the end of February - I doubt I can find $4k in a single month, but I will start looking!

It sounds like there is general agreement that the best single item splurge would be to go with lithium batteries - I understand they require different chargers, but do they require battery management systems?

Is there any sense in looking for a motor that offers more HP at 72volt, or is my controller/amperage going to be the controlling factor on speed (at 72v)?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

marklaken said:


> It sounds like there is general agreement that the best single item splurge would be to go with lithium batteries - I understand they require different chargers, but do they require battery management systems?


Well, no... but yes!!.

Some guys drives her lithium pack without BMS and some others with BMS.... you can find many debate on forum...

I personnaly use a BMS because I don't need to care about battery. My BMS stop the charger when single cell hit 3.6v and advertise me if a cell go too low. So, I simply plug my charger each day and I forget about it.
Great advantage for your wife.
I think the Mini BMS is a really good and simple one. For 72v (24 cells) you will need 24 cell module (294$) and a master module (30$).
You can also buy a simple ''fuel gauge'' for 189$ (Absolutely usefull if you ask).



> Is there any sense in looking for a motor that offers more HP at 72volt, or is my controller/amperage going to be the controlling factor on speed (at 72v)?


You will be limited by controller voltage. Because top speed is related to power = Volt x Amps.

Bigger motor don't produce more power if controller don't supply more power. Bigger motor can only take more amps for longer time, so with a fix 72v they can produce higher power for longer time than a smaller motor. 
So I think you will need to choose between 72v systems and forget about highway or going for a 120-300v systems for more power.

An interesting link here about 72v conversion: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/72v-systems-small-car-68596.html


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

See, i warned you about the others on this forum..... The venerable Curtis forklift controller also comes in different voltages, and there are cheap 96 to 144 v other controllers also ( none of which were mentioned. SURPRISE!!). I think there may be a paul and sabrina DIY controller for sale still over in classifieds. A used forklift motor can be had for scrap value {look over in the motor subforum at the sticky at the top} so actually the major expense will be for whatever battery choice you desire. I do recall the words "on the cheap" in the title and responded accordingly with my caveats.

The important thing is to do the conversion and feel good about it when you drive it quietly down the street.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

gottdi said:


> No, the tiny motor will struggle. Much less torque and it will heat up way faster. My motor is not rated for 144 volts. It can run 144 volts but its not rated for that just like most motors.


I'm just trying to understand how you could get 65 mph off 72V

My max is 65-70 at 120v, so if I ran at 72 I would expect a max right around 40mph in 4th gear.

It seems to me you would have to have a motor wound for a lower voltage that would let you get the RPM (3600 in 4th) and pull extra amps to make up the difference.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Gearing gearing gearing


guess I didn't realize the ghia had twice as many gears as the bug


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You bring up some interesting points and are seeing a lot of opinion about which way to go. You don't have to use top line parts on everything up front. 



marklaken said:


> Some quick back of the envelope calcs show rapidly escalating cost if I go 72v, lithium battery powered with a controller and motor that can be upgraded to 96v in the future (Extra cost of roughly: $2k in batteries, $900 on motor, $1k on controller, $200 on charger). I don't know if it would still be "on the cheap", but I do understand the reasoning and it is a significant dilemma.


A good motor for a Beetle is the Netgain Impulse 9 because its shorter length fits without cutting the rear apron, even with a clutched conversion. The motor makes a little less torque per amp so a little more rpm per volt. The Impulse 9 is just 58 ft-lb at 400 amps (published number.) That means a little more rpm at any given voltage so it will better match the stock VW gearing at lower voltages. At 72 volts you would still struggle on the freeway because peak power would be at a lower rpm than 4th gear at 60 mph.

If you have the right motor then you will have the right motor adapter. It would be easier to upgrade the battery pack, controller, and charger in the future. Used controllers and chargers have some resale value. There are a range of controllers available. I'd suggest either a Soliton or Zilla, but those are >$2000 controllers so I can understand they may not be in the budget. You can use Altrax up to 72 volts, Curtis 1221 or 1231 up to 144 volts, and the Synkomotive controller up to about 175 volts. The price range of these options go from about $600 to about $1700. 



> I hope to have it figured out and parts ordered by the end of February - I doubt I can find $4k in a single month, but I will start looking!
> 
> It sounds like there is general agreement that the best single item splurge would be to go with lithium batteries - I understand they require different chargers, but do they require battery management systems?
> 
> Is there any sense in looking for a motor that offers more HP at 72volt, or is my controller/amperage going to be the controlling factor on speed (at 72v)?


It would be best to use Lithium batteries. They offer more range and less weight. You can avoid having to beef up the suspension or brakes. You save that money to partly offset the greater battery cost, and the vehicle drives a lot better without the lead. If you can't, well... many of us, myself included have done lead conversions. Many of us won't do one again after trying Lithium (including me.) Does Lithium need a BMS is a huge debate on this list. I don't think a BMS is required with modest operator monitoring. 

Horsepower is set by voltage and current available. The motors you would want will have no problem with current for acceleration. Usually it is limited by either the battery pack or motor controller. For example, the cheapest controller on the list I gave puts out up to 450 amps from up to a 72 volt pack. 72 volts times 450 amps is 32,400 watts. The motor will be about 85% efficient at 450 amps so about 27,500 watts makes it to the motor shaft. 27,500 watts divided by 746 (746 watts is equal to 1 horsepower) gives about 37 horsepower. Plenty of old bugs moved just fine with 36 horsepower, but having driven a couple of them I can tell you they don't impress in the performance department.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

gottdi said:


> Twice? How do you figure? The transmission was a freeway flyer. Helps a bunch. My next one is a Pro Street with a 3.44:1 R&P.


VW never offered a 3.44 R&P in a type 1 transaxle. I found it at Rancho Transaxles, where you get your? Did you have the shop build you a complete transaxle, or did you have another shop install it into your box?

I have low gearing with a 4.375 R&P. The tires are a bit taller than stock but it is still 3000 rpm at 60 mph in 4th.


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## exchaoordo (Aug 4, 2010)

I have a similar 71 with a half converted Wilderness 72vdc package. I've not been happy with Wilderness and have gone elsewhere since. I've installed Trojan 6v. I would buy good wire, not welding wire. I've also got a battery that has a separate 12v charger, but it's not ideal. With the original batteries and wiring, the car was sluggish and poor range, but with the 6v pack it does great around town and up to 45 mph.

I'm trying to sort out DC/DC Conversion now.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

gottdi said:


> You need at minimum a 96 volt setup for decent around town driving pleasure and a decent controller that will give you better than 500 amps if needed.


I generally agree with that. Have you ever driven a 36 HP Bug Pete? I've driven a couple and they drive nicely around town (suck wind on the freeway.) In that vein, a light Lithium powered car could likely be quite acceptable with a 72 volt system. Perhaps a 24 cell system with a Altrax and a motor that will give decent rpm per volt. The goal is to make sure the peak power is around 3000 rpm. The car would have about 34 horsepower and the 36 HP Bug engine was only about 30 HP net. I would recommend an adapter with clutch because this package would be shifted just about like a stock Bug. I prefer more power with a broader power band and to ditch the clutch, using just 1 or 2 gears for everything. You can't always afford all you want though. 



> A good DC/DC converter for a basic vehicle like the VW can be purchased from Kelly Controllers and be sure you get the one that outputs the 13.6 volts.


That is what I'm using and it has been working well. They make a 72 volt version too. The price is right, mine where less than $200 each including shipping from China (96v version when I ran 32 cells, 108v version for the current 38 cell pack.) I have never pushed the Kelly DC to DC outside of its rated input voltage range. Some DC to DC converters can be damaged if run under the rated supply voltage and I don't know if the Kelly is such a converter.



> I am still of the opinion to go with Lithiums and go with the largest AH cells you can buy. For a 96 volt setup that would only be 30 cells and $7500 for 200 AH cells that would outlast the vehicle three times over or better. Your distances would be excellent and you would have plenty of poop to scoot around. Much lighter than with lead acid too.


I second the recommendation to run Lithium if at all practical. Perhaps a smaller pack using 100 amp hour CALB cells. Even a little pack of 24, 100 amp hour cells should provide a range of 30 miles. It is larger than the pack I ran last year (32, 60 amp hour TS cells) and I had a 30 mile range in the summer. The pack cost would be only a little over $3000. Even better would be 96 to 120 volt pack of 100 amp hour cells for $4000 to $5000. Everybody has a different amount of money they can work with -- I would encourage them do what they can with what they have. If you really want an EV then a slow EV is better than no EV.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

How much does a Freeway Flyer run, and how do the ratios differ from stock?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Ziggythewiz said:


> How much does a Freeway Flyer run, and how do the ratios differ from stock?


Pete gave you the low-down on the Freeway flyer so I thought I would toss out a low-cost option. Since your bug is a '69 you can grab a used '72 up Super Beetle transaxle. It will have a 3.875 R&P with a slightly lower 0.93 4th. The overall gear ratio in 4th is almost identical to a Bug with a 4.125 with a 0.89, but the first 3 gears will be a bit taller and since EVs have lots of torque taller can be better. With a little scrounging you might find a good used box for cheap.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

What is a second choice motor if I can't swing the netgain motor and am still in the 72 volt camp with a possibility of someday going to 96 volt?

Again, the car is an around town grocery getter. The grocery store is 2 miles away on 25mph roads with 2 stop signs. Work is 4 miles away on 30mph roads (a small stretch of 30mph road where everyone drives 40 mph) with 2 stop signs and 4 traffic signals. There is one 45 mph road in town that the vw may occasionally use. There are no hills. Prevailing winds are from the west, and 80% of the driving is north/south.

I did do some searching on the forums and see a lot of useful in depth info for what I would call high-end home brewed electric cars. The garage feature is especially sweet - several vw case studies and anice search setup. Still learning alot and dialing in my budget. Thanks for all the input, it is trully helpful on several levels.

Also, I ebayed some marine 2/0 gauge copper wire for wiring - $85 shipped for 25' - Will this cut it for my wiring needs?... 

And I am also done welding up floorboard holes and almost done welding up the dashboard for backdating to an all steel dash...


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Super transaxles are a dime a dozen - I am sure I can find one cheap in my local vw club...is it a bolt in conversion or does it require some modification?

When I bought the bug, I got a second IRS axle that I intend to put in my '65 sunroof beetle to replace the swingaxle - the '65 beetle was going to be the electric conversion beetle - I have the body stripped, replaced the heater channels and floor pans and was getting ready to paint it this spring, but then this '69 beetle came along...so now I have a half restored '65 beetle that is hogging garage space that I need to complete and sell - it could fund some future electric car upgrades...


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

so I quick search in the bentley book shows for all beetle/superbeetle models:
1st: 3.80 (pre 1973)
1st: 3.78 (1973 and later)
2nd: 2.06 (all models)
3rd: 1.26 (all models)
4th: 0.89 (pre 1970)
4th: 0.88 (1970 to 1972)
4th: 0.93 (1973 and later)
final drive: 4.375 (pre 1970)
final drive: 4.125 (1970 thru 1972)
final drive: 3.875 (1973 and later)


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

To install a Super Beetle transaxle in an older (but IRS) Bug you will have to use your transaxle nose cone due to a change in the front mount after 1972. You will also need to use a newer type pressure plate and throwout bearing. I can't think of anything else and I'm sure others will chime in if I forgot something.

It's that 3.875 R&P you may want (I do.) My buggy is swing axle so it isn't so easy. In theory, the taller the R&P the more efficient it becomes.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

In a world of limited budgets, would you upgrade a transmission or upgrade a motor/controller assuming that you have 72 volts to work with?...

Also, while on the subject of transmissions, I intend to go clutchless, which means the motor can spin freely if it's not in gear. 

It looks like some controllers offer protection circuitry - does this protection prevent the motor from spinning to fast in an unloaded condition? - I could see this becoming an serious safety issue if say the cable to the throttle box gets stuck and the driver needs to shift into neutral to come a stop. It could also be an issue if the driver misses a gear or has a brainfart...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I would make sure to pick a good motor and adapter first. Then I'd pick a better controller, then I would get around to changing the VW transaxle to adjust gearing. The gearing change won't be that big, most likely from 4.12 to 3.88 in the final drive. I am still running my transaxle with the 4.37 final drive (40 horse gearing.)

Motor controllers can only limit power applied to the motor to limit rpm (and only some can do that.) If you coast down a hill in 1st gear and hit 35 mph you will likely blow up the motor. There is no DC controller I'm aware of that can do anything about that.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> It looks like some controllers offer protection circuitry - does this protection prevent the motor from spinning to fast in an unloaded condition? - I could see this becoming an serious safety issue if say the cable to the throttle box gets stuck and the driver needs to shift into neutral to come a stop. It could also be an issue if the driver misses a gear or has a brainfart...


You could fit an aftermarket tacho with a shift light.
Set the shift light to come on at just below maximum safe motor speed and use the shift light circuit to trigger a relay that cuts the controller/throttle off.

That will protect the motor from overspeed under power (in neutral or in too low a gear) but it won't help if someone rolls down hill fast in first gear.
You could even fit micro switches on the gear selectors to cut the controller/throttle circuit when in neutral.

You might find that it drives ok in 2nd and 3rd gear so you could lock out or remove 1st gear for a bit of over speed safety.

With the voltmeter and ammeter, if you think your wife won't want to look at them you could fit them for your eyes only, in the passenger seat, or in the engine bay for diagnostics in the garage.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Motor controllers can only limit power applied to the motor to limit rpm (and only some can do that.)
> 
> If you coast down a hill in 1st gear and hit 35 mph you will likely blow up the motor. There is no DC controller I'm aware of that can do anything about that.


So yes, some of the better controllers can prevent overspeed (in neutral) if properly configured. There is also the risk of overspeed in 1st or 2nd at higher speeds. IE you can't run 144V to get 55 mph in 2nd with some motors as that is around critical RPMs. In Neutral is neutral so doesn't matter (if not applying throttle). I have heard of one guy that tried to tow it in neutral and it (apparently) slipped into gear on the highway and made the motor explode.


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## OMT (May 10, 2010)

i have an alltrax programmable 72v 450A controller, in my small hyundai accent 2dr hatch i was able to get almost to 100km/h.

its laying around the garage doing nothing and is in perfect condition minus a couple scratches, i could sell you it fro cheap and help your conversion

email me at [email protected] if your interested


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Woodsmith said:


> With the voltmeter and ammeter, if you think your wife won't want to look at them you could fit them for your eyes only, in the passenger seat, or in the engine bay for diagnostics in the garage.


Honestly, I don't think anyone who doesn't feel comfortable looking at these should be driving an EV. It's like taping over your tachometer and gas gauge in a regular car...I suppose if Apple did EVs it would Just Work, and when it didn't you'd just have a frowny face appear on the dash.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Honestly, I don't think anyone who doesn't feel comfortable looking at these should be driving an EV. It's like taping over your tachometer and gas gauge in a regular car...I suppose if Apple did EVs it would Just Work, and when it didn't you'd just have a frowny face appear on the dash.


I know, but sometimes someone not technical might just want to see a 'fuel guage' and not need to work out the numbers.

The OP is building it for his wife. She may have no interest or desire to know anymore then 'will it get there and back'. Then again she may be an electrical engineer and will want to know everything when it is all up and running.

TBH, I would want all the guages in my car but sometimes I feel I would just be happy with a countdown of 'miles left in the tank', much like I have in my diesel car.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Honestly, I had wanted to forgo gauges to maintain the "keep it simple stupid" aesthetic that vintage vws have. VWs didn't come with gas gauges until the mid-60s and never had tachometers, so you there was no need to tape over anything. 

However, I am now looking for a mulitpurpose single gauge that can fit in the fuel gauge slot on the dash and maintain the chrome trim (of course the slot is square-ish)...Seems I found one that might fit the spatial requirements - Pakmeter, I think...

But the gauge issue is the least of my concerns at this point in time. I am still hmm hawing about controllers, batteries, motors, my budget and what if any of the components I already have are usable if I stray from the EV Wilderness 72V conversion (I have the EV Wilderness adapter and coupler (looks like an old clutch hub), curtis throttle box, and a contactor)...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The tacho doesn't need to be in the dash, it is just a simple way to protect over speeding so it could be hidden in the engine bay.

If you are keeping it cheap there is always the forklift truck motor option. That would save a few $ and allow a bit more budget for other parts.

I would also suggest lithium over lead but in your range and power needs it would be worth comparing the figures to see what the cost would be based on how much lead you would need.

There are a lot of trade offs in terms of usable energy, weight, cost, life span costs, etc. so running some numbers would be helpful.

There are a few conversions that are more then able in low range low speed driving using lead.

I am planning on using used lead batteries to get going with at the lowest budget and then getting lithium once the vehicle has proved itself as a road legal and safe vehicle.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

fwiw, in my conversion I have a max motor rpm limit, soft and hard minimum pack voltage limits (all set in the controller) and an individual cell low voltage alarm (MiniBMS). Add a little red line with a sharpie on the speedo face for each gear max rpm (to help prevent the untrained driver from overspeeding on a downhill or downshifting when they shouldn't), and it really is pretty idiot proof. For the last two months I was driving it with no gauges for the most part. I occasionally hooked a laptop to my controller so I can view all sorts of things, but for the most part in my day to day driving I just used the odometer. At the end of the day I download my usage info to the laptop, and over the months I have a pretty solid knowledge of how far I can go, mileage wise, in different kinds of driving.

Long term, I'm going to install EMW's new bluetooth EV display which will track amp hours, and display whatever battery info I want on an android phone/tablet via bluetooth. What I like about it is that there will be no non-original gauges in the car, but when I want them I can have whatever I want by connecting my phone wirelessly via bluetooth.

just one option for gauges and a clean dash.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It is possible to use an amp hour counter to drive the stock gas gauge. This unit from EVworks in Australia allows the gas gauge to reflect the pack state of charge. 

You can, in a pinch, drive a lead acid EV with nothing but a reasonable current limit and an expanded scale volt meter. You may be able to fit a small digital volt meter in place of the stock speedometer mounted gas gauge. Driving based on voltage only is less practical with Lithium batteries because the voltage is nearly constant until nearly discharged.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Wasn't that car originally built by one of the VW rags (Dune Buggies and Hot VWs or VW Trends)? I remember one of them doing a roadster build where they completely replaced the stock windshield frame with a street rod type machined aluminum frame. 

At any rate, that's a cool looking roadster, Pete.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

There are a couple pictures in my albums, but I couldn't figure out how to post them in the thread. 

Right now I have 3 conversion paths in my head:
1.) cheap controller, cheap motor, and 72v worth of lead acid batteries - $3k-ish (most expensive to upgrade)
2.) cheap controller, cheap motor, and 72v worth of lithium batteries - $5k-ish (still expensive to upgrade)
3.) midgrade motor (ES31B/C), midgrade controller (Snkromotiv), and 72 or 96v worth of lead batteries - $5k-ish (cheapest to upgrade).

Tonight I finished smoothing the dash, tomorrow I primer the dash and do my final sanding, and I should get the dash painted by the weekend.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Using an online gearing calculator, I get the following rpms with stock tires (165/80/15 = 25.4" Dia) at 45 mph:

1973:
1st - 8737 rpm
2nd - 4761
3rd - 2912
4th - 2149

1969:
1st - 9917 rpm
2nd - 5376
3rd - 3288
4th - 2322


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

A quick question - will a larger motor run cooler at a given amperage and wattage? The two motors that fit my adapter plate are the D&D ES15 and the D&D ES31B. The 31B is larger (longer) and costs almost twice as much as an ES15. They produce the same peak HP at the same amps according to the info i've found online - 30HP at 72v at 450amps. 

I am also assuming that there are not universal bolt patterns for different motor manufacturers. 

Also, the two motors listed above have different diameter shafts, so I am not sure if my coupler would work with the larger D&D motor...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

marklaken said:


> A quick question - will a larger motor run cooler at a given amperage and wattage?.



Yes..., but the ES-31B is the same diameter, a bit longer and have two brush per pole instead of one for ES15-6.
Bigger is better (of course), but in this case the difference is small.... and money can dictated the way to go.

Both motor will produce roughly same power at 72v 450A because power formula is Volt x Amps = power (W).
I think the ES-31B will have a small efficiency advantage (a bit less lost).

If you think about drive on highway a days (or over 50 mph for long time), take the bigger motor right now (or a bigger one, 8'' or 9'' diameter). If no, ES15-6 will do the job.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

marklaken said:


> I am also assuming that there are not universal bolt patterns for different motor manufacturers.


I believe ADC / Netgain, Kostov and possibly GE have a similar mount that will interchange, but most manufacturers have online case dimensions posted. mostly from what I recall hand drill modifications suffice.

BTW: did you car come equipped with posted passenger?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> BTW: did you car come equipped with posted passenger?


posted passenger? - you mean the blonde? - I think she's someone else's passenger...my car is much less sexy than the red 'vert - it's a baby blue standard sedan (in my gallery) - can't figure out how to post pictures yet...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

marklaken said:


> can't figure out how to post pictures yet...


Just click Go Advanced, then Attachments


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

marklaken said:


> A quick question - will a larger motor run cooler at a given amperage and wattage? The two motors that fit my adapter plate are the D&D ES15 and the D&D ES31B. The 31B is larger (longer) and costs almost twice as much as an ES15. They produce the same peak HP at the same amps according to the info i've found online - 30HP at 72v at 450amps.
> 
> I am also assuming that there are not universal bolt patterns for different motor manufacturers.
> 
> Also, the two motors listed above have different diameter shafts, so I am not sure if my coupler would work with the larger D&D motor...


To help you decide on a tranny I can tell you what works best for me and the conversions I do for others. I currently have a 70 VW but use a 69 tranny in order to use 3rd gear only. Shifting lever and reverse gear has been removed and it is clutchless. Using the AC-50 provides sufficient but not powerful coming off the line, but is excellant from 20mph on up to about 80mph. Motor is capable of over 8krpm. More like a production car with no need to shift, even on hills. And, only 130v is necessary and is maximum for the controller. Customers really like this setup. If into racing this setup would need a clutch and the use of 2nd gear off the line. Just thought this would help you decide what gear ratio you are thinking of using. The 71 tranny makes a little less noise than the 69.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

here is a picture of the beetle that I am converting:


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

marklaken said:


> here is a picture of the beetle that I am converting:


Looks like a good car for conversion. What do you plan to install in it for motor. controller etc? It looks better than mine did befor restoration. Here are a couple of pictures after all was done. If I can help you with anything, let me know.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Some more planning/understanding questions:

Regarding Lithium Batteries:

Can I start with a 72v 100ah setup of 24 batteries and add more of the same brand batteries to that pack at a later date to get me to 96 or 120 volts without replacing the cells I already have?

And what are some good makes/models of variable voltage battery chargers for LI-ion batteries and are there negatives to buying a variable voltage charger? I am guessing that they are more expensive (if they are alot more expensive, it may make sense to start with higher voltage) - I know very little about charging technologies, as most of my research has been on controllers and motors thus far...

I am still piecing together my build, leaning towards 72V li-ion for starters with future upgrades to controller and voltage without upgrading motor. These are the 5 motors I am considering (from least to most expensive):

D&D ES-15 (too small to upgrade voltage, I think)
ADC L914003
ADC x91-4003 (it allows more volts - is that all it does over the L91?)
D&D ES-31B
Netgain Impulse 9

Do any of them make anyone cringe or is there a significant advantage to any of the ones listed - I think the netgain can spin at higher rpms, which would help the bug keep speed with less shifting - do any of the other motors have that same rpm advantage?...

And thinking ahead here, I am initially planning on using 2 charger system (12v and 72v). One of the first upgrades I could make is to add an alternator (if I end up with a double shaft motor). This will eat some hp and range - is it a major consideration or a minor issue? The bonus I see is that if I upgrade voltage in the future, the alternator system would be unaffected by the change, I have old vw alternators on hand, and it would be a cheap and fun upgrade project.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Quite a few people have had success in getting a second hand forklift motor. There is a massive thread in the motor section on this.

Try and get the biggest that will fit and can run @72V (try to find one with a nameplate voltage of 48v at a guess).

Later on you can either buy a HV motor or you can get this motor rewound and the brushes advanced. Depending on your skills you could possibly DIY this.

Much $$$ to be saved.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So my project is starting to take shape - it is looking like a netgain impulse motor powered by an AXE7245 (used) controller and 72v (or maybe 84v?) battery pack made of 12v deep cycle batteries and a E-expert Pro battery monitor gauge.

Followed by a major upgrade next year for a better controller followed by a higher voltage and/or ampHour lithium battery pack when my lead acid pack dies. 

Total cost for the initial car should be around $4000 with a $1400 controller upgrade within the next year and a $4000 battery pack upgrade in the next couple years.

I like this plan - it fits my current budget and time frame while also giving me something to look forward to with the upgrades. Hopefully solitron Jr controllers start saturating the used marketplace and new Lithium batteries become cheaper.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I wouldn't hold my breath on the solitons...usually the only thing that saturates the market is junk no one wants (and stuff made in china).


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

and being a diehard lead junkie, I wouldn't hold my breath on lithium either.


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## cruisin (Jun 3, 2009)

gottdi said:


> The only one I don't cringe at is the Warp9 Impulse. It is a nice motor. My opinion the others are just too damn small. You could go the AC-50 and Curtis avenue. That would be an excellent setup for any VW. Not a hotrod but a decent runner for sure.
> 
> By the way Crusin, that is a nice lookin bug to go Crusin on Friday nights with.


 
Thanks, onne thing about driving the VW around, even on Friday nights, you get alot of positive looks. More interesting is that after stopping and talking to a lot of the people, they dont even realize it is electric. The beetle will always be a head turner, as long as it looks original and clean. I tried to do that with all my conversions. I have even been asked if it came from the factory as a electric. I find that to be a compliment.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

I was on the verge of buying a Gem E2 for a utility car. This thread inspired me to think a little bigger and today I found a great 1973 Beetle that I will use as a donor. I haven't crawled under a VW for over 40 years but I am looking forward to this build. I will initially use it for local trips of less than 10 miles but once I upgrade the brakes (and buy more batteries) I want to have a range of 50-100 miles. 

My previous experience was with a couple of bikes that I converted and powered with Headways.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Yes, I will be using Lithium batteries. Initially I will build a Headway pack for local use, then evaluate some of the larger prism cells when I want to extend the range. 

I take delivery of the donor chassis this morning and want to upgrade the brakes first while I still have the ICE engine. (Sound familiar?) Where did you purchase your Wilwood parts? I can't seem to find them in kit form to upgrade the front drums.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

ricklearned said:


> I was on the verge of buying a Gem E2 for a utility car. This thread inspired me to think a little bigger and today I found a great 1973 Beetle that I will use as a donor. I haven't crawled under a VW for over 40 years but I am looking forward to this build. I will initially use it for local trips of less than 10 miles but once I upgrade the brakes (and buy more batteries) I want to have a range of 50-100 miles.
> 
> My previous experience was with a couple of bikes that I converted and powered with Headways.


A range of 50-100 miles will cost $6,000 to $11,000 in batteries.

corbin


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

corbin said:


> A range of 50-100 miles will cost $6,000 to $11,000 in batteries.
> 
> corbin


Yes, I know. I want to start out with a range of 10 miles so that will cost around $1000. I can scale up from there. If I am lucky the price of Lithium batteries will go down.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

Hi Rick,

If you haven't started on the brakes yet you might consider converting the front to discs. Kits are readily available. They are so much easier to deal with, better braking, self adjusting, easy to replace the pads, there is just no comparison. remember how often you have to readjust the brake shoes, especially the fronts. Leave the drums in the rear.

Zak


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Mine (disk brakes) stop great but other than that they've been a pain since I 'upgraded'


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The usual front disc brake upgrade for the Bugs is to use the Karmann Ghia front discs. My understanding is that these are the same disc brakes use on later European Beetles, European Super Beetles, and on later Type III VWs (fastback, squareback, notchback.) If you are having problems Ziggy please share, as this is a road well traveled so someone should have any answers you need. (Plus I'm thinking about building up a late Super Beetle and was planning to get rid of the North American SB front drums for the KG disc conversion.) 

I kept my 4 wheel drum brakes on the buggy to retain the 5x205 wheel lug pattern, using stock '58-'64 brakes. I upgraded to the later duel circuit master cylinder. Better is not needed since it weighs only about 1200 lb. They need adjustment... again. The later '68 up brakes are best, with or without front discs (plus you can adjust them without taking the wheels off.) I tend to avoid the '65-'67 stuff as a few parts where used only within those years.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Issues:

I did a spindle replacement kit, ended up taking about a month to whack off and press out all the ball joints and press new ones in, some of which were destroyed or damaged on the way in.

Brakes hit wheels so needed spacers

Brakes drag all the time, does not seem to make a huge difference on power used, but drives me crazy knowing I'm braking all the time.

Under light braking tires locked up unexpectedly and did a 50 foot skid. That was fun.

Brakes went out one day, found the reservoiur empty. Filled it, found slow leak on one side. Went to fix, but it was on the other side. Then it went away, then came back.

Right side got covered in somethin multiple times.

And pulls to the right on any more than very light braking.


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## Zak650 (Sep 20, 2008)

I bought a kustom1warehouse kit and was dissapointed I had to shim the calipers to get them to be centered on the discs.

You might try this setup from mofoco for a ball joint, 4 hole wheel:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-BUG-FRON...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a425a1fea

check it fits your car, order new bearings, seals. Uses existing spindles 

Zak


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Do you have a proportioning/metering valve? No

Do you have a dual master cylinder? Yes

How old are your calipers? < 6 mo

Are the pad pins properly lubed? No idea

Hows the condition of the rotor? new

How about the drum brakes? work fine, but weak

When was the last time you flushed the brake fluid? Flushes itself whenever it feels like it.

What about the bleeder valves? They seem to bleed at will

When you bleed the brakes what is your process? hook vac tube to valve, pump to 20 psi, release valve, tighten, repeat

Be sure the springs are in good condition for the drum brakes too. Check

Disc brakes are very very close but should not be binding at all. Brakes do not bind, they just drag, I heard that was a feature...self adjusting


While we're on about it, parking brake fully tightened can barely hold car on flat. Cables are new. Is there another model with ~.5 -1" shorter cables that would allow proper adjustment?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It looks like you have old school wheels, clearing disc brakes is a problem for some. Stock wheels or newer type alloy wheels could fix that (anything listed as fitting a '68-'74 Karmann Ghia.) Disc brakes do drag a little, actually, self adjusting drum brakes do to. We can get spoiled with no-touch drum brakes, until time to adjust.

Spot lock-ups, missing fluid, pulling -- these are all signs of fouled brakes. Grease and brake fluid do nasty things. I would recommend pulling the brakes apart and getting good rebuilt calipers and new pads. Before putting the new parts in check the bearings and seals. Sometimes you have to be a bit stingy on grease if the seal races are getting grooved or are other wise scored. I think you can replace them on the ball joint spindles. You also need to get the rotors checked to make sure they are true and within thickness tolerance. 

With a careful going over (sorry there are low quality cheap sources for VW parts) you should have a solid braking system with minimal drag. You shouldn't require any proportioning valve as you are copying KG brakes on your Bug. I run some archaic hardware at times, but I don't skimp on getting old brakes working tip-top.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

The brakes themselves came with washers to adjust how they line up, and adding those to allow it to fit on the rotor makes the brake cylinder protrude past the wheel in places. I was told that can happen depending on your wheel type, and to go buy these: http://www.jbugs.com/product/16-9926.html (I went with the $2 lowes solution now instead)

Don't have any photos, can take some next time wheels are off. 

Brakes were spongy before disc brakes ever since a plug melted and managed to drain both sides (almost hit a truck and then a retard cop) no amount of bleeding seems to help. With the disks I can't feel any sponge, I assume the rears are probably still sponge and only provide 10% or less instead of the 40% they're supposed to carry.

Definitely pulling from front. There was no pull when the front ones went out a few weeks ago, and the rear drums don't have the power to drag that thing in any direction. I had first read that if one side was sponging that could cause it, so I bled that side, seemed to help for 10 min or so. The next week I cleaned that rotor and calipers and that also helped for 10 min.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Don't worry, they're big washers  Yeah, after almost a month of the bug off the road I didn't want to wait another 2 weeks and blow another $70. 

Brake light plug. Middle melted through and drained everything. Isn't it great to have a fail-dead hydraulic system, and then drill some holes in it and plug em up with more fail?

Standard dual master, yeah, I like the type 3 on the rear idea, just need to find a yard to get em cheap. I never liked the idea of having so much of the braking power up front. Maybe from riding a bike, but it just seems that the rear is where you'd like to have more force.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

gottdi said:


> If the pack is too small you can over tax those cells real fast and that will not be good. Building something with like a 20 mile range would be better. With a small pack you will be more than likely taking your pack to the bitter end of its charge and you will want to be sure you bottom balance your cells so if you do or I mean when you do you will not kill your cells. A 20 mile range is more realistic than just a 10 mile range. 10 miles means only 5 miles out and 5 back and your pack is just flat out empty. You can kill 10 miles real fast if your not careful. Be sure you are good with such a small pack.
> 
> Pete


Thanks, I learned that on my bike conversion. At least on a bike you can pedal home, or at least pedal assist, to go easy on the pack. Yes, you have to be conservative when using expensive Lithium batteries. I live in a beach town in Southern California that is one sguare mile.

I have recently purchased a CBA from West Mountain Radio and it does great graphs of the discharge curve. I have learned you don't want to be near the knee of that curve where the voltage falls off quickly. I will figure on using 60 to 70% of the pack to be conservative. In addition the benefit will be to give my cells a longer life. I backed in to my mileage projections figuring 250 watts per mile. Initially I think I will initially run 72 volts for local trips. That computes to needing 35 Ahr for 10 miles and If I only want to use 60 percent of my pack, I will need a 72 volt pack with 58 Ahrs of capacity. 

I also know that 72 volts won't get me much speed but that is fine for my local trips. Later I can up the voltage for speed and add capacity for distance.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Zak650 said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> If you haven't started on the brakes yet you might consider converting the front to discs. Kits are readily available. They are so much easier to deal with, better braking, self adjusting, easy to replace the pads, there is just no comparison. remember how often you have to readjust the brake shoes, especially the fronts. Leave the drums in the rear.
> 
> Zak


I ordered the disc brake kit from Aircooled and it arrived yesterday. After I ordered it I discovered that Topline is only 45 minutes away in Anaheim and I could have picked it up there. I did get some suspension upgrades from Topline today and John was really helpful. I hope to have the front end finished by the end of next week so I can try out the discs. I plan on leaving the drums in the back.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The VW Master cylinder p/n 113 611 015BD fits 1967-77 VW Standard Bug and
1967-74 VW Karmann Ghia (and in my case, 1964 Beetle 'cause I wanted duel circuit brakes.) It should be in your '74 Bug. 

I would recommend replacing the front brake flex hoses, if you didn't when installing the disc brakes. They can do weird sometimes-inside-collapses-sometimes-not games as they start to fail. If they shut down right as you press the brake pedal the car pulls the other way. If they trap pressure one side drags until it slowly bleeds down. They make bleeding the brakes virtually impossible. I've seen those lines work for 40 years, but I've seen them fail in 10 years too.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, it's a dual circuit, but I might have to replace the thing sometime. There have been times when only one circuit went dry, but others when both did somehow, through what appeared to be a leak on just one.

Yes had to upgrade the hoses on install.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, I understand the physics bit, I just like the idea of rear braking. Better stability etc. With drums all around you can tune it so the rears hit a bit first.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

gottdi said:


> Which one? I ordered mine directly from Airkewld and that was over a month ago. l really hate their customer service. They suck.


This one:
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Front-Disc-Brake-Kit-1971-79-Super-Beetle-p/sb-disc-brake-kit.htm

It would have shipped the day I ordered it but I screwed up the model number of my car and they called to clarify and straightened it out. It shipped the next day and took 3 days UPS ground from Utah. I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment and the UPS guy was huffing and puffing when he arrived with the package. Those rotors and calipers are heavy. I would recommend aircooled.net, but Topline is also great.

When I made the decision to go with a VW donor car, I had a hunch that there was a lot of available resources for fixing up the car but I had no idea there were that many in Southern California.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

gottdi said:


> Well there lies the issue. Mine are not from Aircooled at all. Mine are from Airkewld.
> 
> http://airkewld.com/index.php?page=...tegory_id=94&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=261


Yeah, but you got those kewl calipers. My suspension budget would have allowed for them had I not overspent on tooling up for this rebuild.


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## crack monkey (May 30, 2011)

gottdi said:


> Well there lies the issue. Mine are not from Aircooled at all. Mine are from Airkewld.
> 
> http://airkewld.com/index.php?page=...tegory_id=94&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=261


sorry not trying to hijack.... If you can cancel that order, I would. They are a crap company from everyone that I have talked too


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## Russco (Dec 23, 2008)

gottdi said:


> The problem is that I want quality components and I am willing to wait to some degree.
> 
> There is no other company that provides a kit like I want. I actually just wanted to keep what is already on the vehicle but because no one will re-line my shoes I am stuck buying a whole new setup. Aside from shoes the system I currently have is perfectly fine. There is no manufacturer name on the caliper and we have no clue what to buy and no listings have our style shoe. Some close but none that will work. No one will re-line or make new shoes off the dead ones. That sucks even more.
> 
> ...



The drum brakes sucked on my '71 VW Super. Finally replaced the fronts with disc using German rotors, the common Ghia type calipers (not made in China, new bearings (not made in China.) Cost about $350 from Southern California.

Absolutely fantastic braking with the disc. Gotta have them. 

Pictures on my site under: Russco's EV, The Orange Juicer.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO Engineering http://russcoev.com


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

In the past 6 months I went ahead and repaired the body, backdated the dashboard to all metal dash, and resprayed the car in VW's Beryl Green. I obviously didn't make my goal of getting the bug converted by May 20, but I am still making progress.


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## ricklearned (Mar 3, 2012)

Nice work. Remember, you were the insiration for my build.


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## Wolfswagen (Jul 2, 2012)

marklaken said:


> In the past 6 months I went ahead and repaired the body, backdated the dashboard to all metal dash, and resprayed the car in VW's Beryl Green. I obviously didn't make my goal of getting the bug converted by May 20, but I am still making progress.


The bug looks great! I just spent most of the day on my '69, so it's great seeing another one getting put together. Keep the photos coming, please!

Robert


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a basic question about range that affects my system configuration. For about the same price, I could do a 96 volt system with 70aH lithium batteries or 72 volt system with 100 aH lithium batteries (96x70 = 6720; 72x100=7200). I am inclined to go for the volts and smaller batteries - will I get about the same range if both systems are driven equally? I am sure this is oversimplification of a complex problem.

Also is there a simple rule of thumb way to calculate number of lithium cells for a 96 volt and 72 volt applications (for basic cost comparison purposes)?


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

marklaken said:


> I have a basic question about range that affects my system configuration. For about the same price, I could do a 96 volt system with 70aH lithium batteries or 72 volt system with 100 aH lithium batteries (96x70 = 6720; 72x100=7200). I am inclined to go for the volts and smaller batteries - will I get about the same range if both systems are driven equally? I am sure this is oversimplification of a complex problem.
> 
> Also is there a simple rule of thumb way to calculate number of lithium cells for a 96 volt and 72 volt applications (for basic cost comparison purposes)?


If you take capacity times cell voltage times number of cells you get watt-hours. This is the energy of the battery pack and you can compare different pack configurations. I did a comparison of different cells using cost per Watt-hour as a metric. For the cells I was considering I used 3.2 volts per cell as the nominal.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Is your controller 96V max? For better performance you'd want to do the highest voltage your controller is designed for, unless you really need that extra 7% energy that you'd get off the other config.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a used alltrax controller that is 72 volt max. For a few hundred bucks difference, I could sell the alltrax controller and buy a used curtis 1221 (which has max voltage of 120volt). I would stay at 96volt or less due to costs and my specific performance needs (a car that goes 5-10 miles per day with a top speed of 35 mph).

For the battery pack sizing, do I use the 3.6volt or the 3.2volt number on the lithium batteries when figuring out the number of needed cells?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

In that case definitely go with the higher voltage option. Then if you want more speed you can just add cells, up to ~40.

Use 3.2V for the calcs. 3.6 is a charge voltage and the cells should never really be that high. (I'm assuming CALBs or similar)


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

The controller manual should list the max voltage. Stay below this number at all times - use 3.6 volt/cell or whatever voltage you plan to charge up to plus some margin (I hate pushing electronics right up to the rated max). The controllers many times are called by the nominal voltage - use the 3.2 volt/cell as nominal voltage.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

marklaken said:


> I have a used alltrax controller that is 72 volt max. For a few hundred bucks difference, I could sell the alltrax controller and buy a used curtis 1221 (which has max voltage of 120volt). I would stay at 96volt or less due to costs and my specific performance needs (a car that goes 5-10 miles per day with a top speed of 35 mph).


Like other guys said, more voltage will allow the motor (Impulse 9???) to spin faster under load.

But isn't all, because the Alltrax 7245 will allow 12% higher torque (450A vs 400A), the acceleration will probably be faster with your 72v (24S is 76.8v nominal) compare to a 96v (30S) system. I assuming acceleration up to 30-35 mph. 
120v can be another story.

So, if they has any chance for you to build a 120v pack in the future, take the Curtis. 
If you think use this car only at city speed and build a 120v will never be in the plan, 72v is perfect.
By reference, my Smart Fortwo can reach 60 mph at 72v...


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I remember reading the manual for the Alltrax 7245, I think it's on their website. I remember reading that it will error out and shut down if it sees 90 volts. If your charger charges to 3.6 volts, you could have 25 cells(90 volts at full charge while finishing the charge) and about 80 volts nominal. The performance won't be super.

Here's an example of another car that used that controller.
http://www.evalbum.com/2975

The owner of that car was disappointed because he thought he would have a higher top speed but with a low voltage conversion, it never could go that fast. If you are okay with 40mph roads(maybe 45), you might be happy but the acceleration past a certain speed gets a bit sluggish.
He used to be on this forum quite a bit but I haven't seen him here in awhile.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I am going with a cheaper motor than an impulse 9 on my budget. Something in the $1000 new price range. I have not had any luck finding used forklift motors, and am thinking I probably won't find one of those diamonds in the rough.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Hey, you're in CO. Don't they pay for half the car anyway?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I am unaware of any local incentives for electric car conversions. I will have to look on the Colorado state government website - thanks for the tip!


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I heard it was something ridiculous, like 80% or something. Enough to make me consider getting a PO BOX across the border.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I am only finding references to old tax incentives online and the CO Dept. of Revenue website is no help at all. I will call Evolve down in Boulder to see what they know.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I found this, but I'm not sure what exactly the emissions standards mean or how they're rated. It looks like you may be able take advantage of the 75% or $6000 max tax credit. As I said though I don't have a detailed understanding of exactly what the federal emissions standards mean so I'm not positive.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm a CO resident, and as long as you pay taxes in CO, they give you back 75% up to $6500 for your conversion... That link you've got is correct. I'm planning on getting my full $6500 back, if just from a battery purchase. 

The money comes in the form of a CO tax rebate (not credit), so you should be getting it all back. 

Sidenote: EvolveElectrics is awesome, and I'd recommend looking on EVtradinpost for motors and parts...

http://www.evtradinpost.com/item/703 9" Motor, a little overpriced for used
http://www.evtradinpost.com/item/722 AC Motor, also a bit overpriced for used

Of course, you can't go bigger than 9" for your motor with the original tranny. Have you looked at the pictures at:
http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/plug-bug/


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Wow, that changes everything - thanks for the information.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

marklaken said:


> Wow, that changes everything - thanks for the information.


Haha! You will need to remove ''on the cheap'' from title!


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

It will still be cheap (really cheap for me!) - I don't have the cash or desire to go crazy on full blown 120volt 100aH lithium battery car conversion. However, my out of pocket cost has changed from a target of $6000 to a target of $1500 after 75% rebates! 

right now my costs break down sits at:
$750 - '69 vw beetle with wilderness electric motor mount, curtis throttle box, albright contactor, a big fuse, new tires, new running boards, new deep cell 12v battery.
$90 - 30' of marine battery wire
$200 - front disc brake conversion kit
$250 - new trim, door, hood trunk, window seals
$200 - fresh home booth paint job
$300 - used alltrax 7245
$150 - used Curtis 1400 dc-dc converter
So I'm in about $2000 and about one hundred hours of labor (mostly on body work).

That leaves me about $4000 for batteries, motor, charger, and misc small pieces.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you can really get that much off the rebate (since it's not a credit) I would definitely look into going lithium, even if you had to get a loan to do it. Lead is only a temporary state anyway so ultimately any time and money you put into it is being wasted.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

I guess you didn't do what I did. When I found out about the rebate, I did go crazy.  I bought a Solectria Force (not running) and a motor / controller / lithiums. Now I've got an AC drive system for ~9000, and it's pretty nice. (would be nicer if I could get the controller to behave in Delta mode - it only likes to work in WYE). Good luck on your project.

Also: What Ziggy said X2.


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm figuring on spending $6k on lithium for about a 40 mile range. If you really only need 20 miles you might be able to make it work for $3k?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

It's very tempting to get a loan. My wife said the same thing today at lunch when I described the rebate situation (and it is her car, after all). Decisions...

I wanted to go lithium and will go that route now. 25 100aH Calb cells that were suggested in a prior post would still keep me close to my original budget goals. For me, the original budget was part of the challenge/fun. 

However, dropping the "cheap" and going Soliton Jr, Netgain Impulse, and 120 volt Calb 100aH pack and still landing close to my original budget after the CO rebate is extremely tempting. I also have an acquaintance that does "green" loans for residential and business energy improvements - I wonder if this qualifies and what terms of the loan are...

This is quickly becoming very complicated...Luckily this weekend I am just installing rubber seals and windows on the vw


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yes, you could easily do a 20 mile range for $3k. Add more later to bump it to 40-50 if you want.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So I am back on the electric wagon and planning to finish what I started last year. The bug is finish painted, polished, new seals, and it's time to make big decisions and drop some money on components. 

I went back and reread my thread and noticed gottdi's threads are no longer there (they were very helpful - what happened to them?) - mainly, he had thrown out some transmission coupler manufacturers that are no longer part of this thread. 

I have a wilderness EV coupler (basically the center of an old clutch). I am starting to think I should get something better. Who makes couplers for the vw transmission? Can I make use of a lovejoy coupler, and does anyone know the proper lovejoy couplers to make the vw transmission to 7/8" keyed motor shaft?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Still here under a different name. Tossed out some threads because I was just totally pissed at this forum. I decided to not remove them all but many were. For that I am sorry because I realized there was some good info. 

So where are you at in this build component wise? I like the adaptor from Rebirth Auto. There are others that are good but not much cheaper. The quality of the one from Rebirth far outweighs the others. In my opinion its the BEST bang period. Damn good price too. Unless you have full access to a machine shop and can do your own you really will need to buy one.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Welcome back!

The main coupler places I'm aware of besides wilderness are CanEV and RebirthAuto -> but they're pricey. I'm sure there are others out there as well.

I've heard good and bad about lovejoys, just check out a few threads.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Don't bother with LoveJoy connectors. They work for a short time. Lower powered systems that use the urethane bushing may fair better.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Oh yeah! Welcome back.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks - I will check them out. 

I am planning on buying the netgain impulse motor and using 100aH lithium batteries. 

I plan to set the car up for 72 volt initially since I have a bunch of the stuff to do that already in my garage. If I am unhappy, I will rapidly upgrade it 24 volts at a time until I am happy. I plan to take advantage of the Colorado tax incentive in 2014, so it need to be sorted out by this time next year.

The stuff I have on hand:

alltrax 7245 controller
72/96 volt to 12v converter
wilderness ev clutchless motor mount and coupler
albright sw200 contactor
curtis throttle (PB-5, I think)


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok, so I am trying to interpret the lithium battery stuff in the battery forum. The information is overwhelmingly complicated to digest. Is it really tricky to diagnose and repair? I want something that is essentially "plug and play" - what would you recommend? 

I've come around to this setup plan:
96v or 120v 100aH Sinopoly or Calb batteries (how many banks?)
synkromotive controller
impulse motor
Charger? (120v or 220v? Reliable brands?)
BMS (necessary? reliable & simple brands?)


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

CALB is easiest to get. 120V of 100AH should about fit in the rear shelf area. I forget if you're keeping the seat in or not.

BMS not necessary, just an initial balance and decent monitoring. I like top balancing, Pete'll tell you bottom.

I'd go for a charger that does either 120 or 220V, and one with enough flexibility to go down a couple cells or up half a dozen should the need arise. Some come preprogrammed with 10 setpoints you can use.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Right now my local ev parts dealer has sinopoly 100aH cells for $120 each. Calbs are $130. Are Calb or Sinopoly equals as far as quality goes?

I'd prefer to buy the cells first, since the battery box seems to be the most intensive fabrication component. Is there any harm in buying cells and then having them sit for 6 months while I get money saved for motor and controller?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I plan to keep the rear seat (for the dogs). I want to fit the batteries on the shelf behind the rear seat and in the motor compartment. I would use the floor behind the driver seat as the third preference for batteries. I would like to keep the charger, motor, and controller in the motor compartment as well.

I could make the rear seat a flat cargo area with batteries underneath, so long as I can fit two 65 lb dogs back there safely.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Since your using a fairly low voltage system You'd be best off spending a tad more and get the Calb. Be sure they are the Grey cells. If your buying CALB SE cells then I'd go for the slightly cheaper Synopoly cells. If possible get the Grey cells as they can handle higher currents *way* better than any other available prismatic cells. 

As for reliable chargers? Elcon.

Yes, I'd bottom balance if you don't use a BMS. It is the SAFER way. Sure you could do a top balance but the bottom is still the safest no matter what others say if you don't use a BMS. 

Pete


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Higher charging currant or discharging currant?

The Calb cells I was online pricing are the blue ones (Evolve in Boulder, CO).


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

marklaken said:


> Higher charging currant or discharging currant?
> 
> The Calb cells I was online pricing are the blue ones (Evolve in Boulder, CO).


CALB Grey are the best prismatic for discharge current and charge current. They have been successfully tested to 10C discharge and can take 4C no problem. Most likely higher. Not likely you will be pumping in 4C charging on your home charger. 

If you can get the Grey ones do so. CALB SE are good. Many use them but the sag is high with high current. Not so with the Grey cells.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Send an email to Don Blazer, he's doing a group buy on the grey CALB cells. He's got a good history of supplying cells to DIYers, it's worth at least getting a quote from him.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I misquoted prices - Calb SE are $140; Synopolys are advertised at $120. 

I need to learn more about sag and balancing, but of the cuff, am I ok in thinking that adding voltage offsets the affects of battery sag? I may not go any further than that with my understanding...


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

marklaken said:


> I want something that is essentially "plug and play" - what would you recommend?


Hi
If you don't intend to complicate yourself with battery, I suggess you to use a Mini BMS. 
Bottom and Top balance can work, but you need to monitoring the cells. 
BMS can do this for you:

Stop the charger when battery is full charge.
Alarm you if a cell is completely discharged.
Maintain your cells balanced.
So overall, protect your cells if you don't intend to do.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

marklaken said:


> I misquoted prices - Calb SE are $140; Synopolys are advertised at $120.
> 
> I need to learn more about sag and balancing, but of the cuff, am I ok in thinking that adding voltage offsets the affects of battery sag? I may not go any further than that with my understanding...


CALB 100AH Grey cells are available for $149 each. Guaranteed you will get them and from a very reliable source. No need to wait months to get them and no need to worry if you will actually get them or not. 

For the extra money get the Grey cells. 

http://blog.evtv.me/store/proddetail.php?prod=ca100fi


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

*Re: '69 VW Beetle Electric Grocery Getter (no longer on the cheap)*

Most of the pictures I see of vw engine bays seem to have the electric motor exposed to the elements from the underside. Is this acceptable practice? Would I need to worry about wet roadways or big puddles? Obviously, the car couldn't be used in deep snow (like last weeks 18 inch snowfall).

Also, can I put a sheet metal shelf above the motor, or does it need to be wide open around the motor for cooling?

Also, researching elcon chargers, it looks like many of their chargers have a nominal and maximum voltage range. Am I correct in assuming the charger could charge a battery pack within that range?

So it's starting to look like 120volt (38 100 aH cells), mini bms or full size bms, elcon charger, netgain impulse 9, synkromotive controller. That maximizes my 75% local rebates and lands me around $3000 out of pocket.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

*Re: '69 VW Beetle Electric Grocery Getter (no longer on the cheap)*



marklaken said:


> Most of the pictures I see of vw engine bays seem to have the electric motor exposed to the elements from the underside. Is this acceptable practice? Would I need to worry about wet roadways or big puddles? Obviously, the car couldn't be used in deep snow (like last weeks 18 inch snowfall).
> 
> Also, can I put a sheet metal shelf above the motor, or does it need to be wide open around the motor for cooling?
> 
> ...


IMHO, no! You need to enclose the motor somehow. See my website for a housing I made.

corbin


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Corbin - nice website - lots of helpful posts and a beautiful bug.

I kinda thought leaving it open was asking for trouble...

How about the vents under the rear window - is it safe to leave those open for airflow into the engine compartment? I think VW has them louvered so they don't suck water into the engine, but I can't remember exactly. 

I know vw's depend on suction in the engine compartment to draw fresh air in (the designed vents don't scoop in air). Is this lack of suction an issue with motor and component cooling? I would think you have to develop some positive or negative air pressure in the engine bay to keep heat from accumulating...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

marklaken said:


> I misquoted prices - Calb SE are $140; Synopolys are advertised at $120.


Even the CAs can be had much cheaper than $140. Talk to Don.


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Even the CAs can be had much cheaper than $140. Talk to Don.


^ What Ziggy said. Definitely get a quote from Don.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I did talk with Don and need to save a few more pennies before I can pull the trigger on my battery pack. 

Can someone verify my battery math:

38 cells x 3.2v = 121.6v <-- I am figuring this as a 120v pack <-- correct?

38 cells x 3.2v x 100aH = 12,160w <-- correct?

12,160w / 300 w/mile x 70% = 28 miles/charge <-- correct?

How do I figure out how many KwH to charge the battery (assume 120v, 12a, 92% efficiency charger)?


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Exactly, your calculs are correct. Unit aren't w, but wh. 
Also, I think 38,39 or 40 serie of lifepo4 cells are considered as 120v

To charge from 70% DOD: 12.16 Kwh x 0.7 / 0.92 = 9.25 Kwh


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Based on 100aH cell measurements, it looks like I can tightly squeeze in 32 cells in the shelf area behind the rear seat and I can get 6 cells and my 12v deep cycle battery under the rear seat. This gets the 38 cells I was planning on and keeps everything in back (about 500 lbs of equipment over the rear axle - factory was closer to 300 lbs for motor and 12v battery)

I could also divide my pack (19 front, 19 back?) and put cells in the front trunk - it'd be better weight distribution (I'd hate to understeer into an accident).

Either way, I have to divide my pack into two groups of cells. Are there any any special provisions I need to account for when I break the bank of batteries into 2 groups?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Just fuse each section. So you will have two instead of one. Some have more. I'd keep the layout where your cells are in the suitcase area behind the rear seat and just under the rear seat to keep weight rearward and forward of the rear axle. Since your not using many cells (38) you should be fine. You could if you wanted add a few cells up in the fuel tank area as well to better balance the whole thing. Mine will be where the rear seat used to be and a few up front where the fuel tank used to be. Most there to show off the cells. The rest will be covered and not seen but all will be as low as I can and forward of the transaxle. Gives more of a mid engined balance and allows the VW to handle well if you happen to drive aggressively. 

Pete


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Mark,
Just FYI - I (Finally) got my CO Tax Rebate today. It looks like they're trying to crack down on conversions more with this year's round of rebates - They are no longer rebating for plug-in-hybrids. Also, you will want to send in a copy of your title (with E as the fuel for your car), your registration, all invoices (Every single one), and proof of purchase of the vehicle. I maxed my rebate out and got the whole $6000 in my refund. Good luck with your bug. Oh - and check on Pete's (onegreenev) kit he's got for sale (Classified section)- It's a good setup.

Otedawg


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Does that mean that they are not rebating cars that have been previously converted to plug in hybrids or brand new plug in hybrids? Conversions are still covered? I thought it was 75% of costs upto $7500 per their own publication - I called the Colorado Dept. of Revenue and discussed this with them, but I was more help to them than they were to me in understanding the credit.

If $6000 is the max rebate, I may not splurge on 120 volts...


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

marklaken said:


> Thanks for the info. Does that mean that they are not rebating cars that have been previously converted to plug in hybrids or brand new plug in hybrids? Conversions are still covered? I thought it was 75% of costs upto $7500 per their own publication - I called the Colorado Dept. of Revenue and discussed this with them, but I was more help to them than they were to me in understanding the credit.
> 
> If $6000 is the max rebate, I may not splurge on 120 volts...


Mark,
I just double checked - the absolute max is $6000. The publication covering this is http://www.colorado.gov/cms/forms/dor-tax/Income67.pdf 

As far as hybrids go:



> For the purposes of determining the credit, a hybrid electric vehicle that is converted to a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle will be presumed to retain the same EPA emissions certification (bin number under the Tier 2 rating system) as it had prior to the conversion. For example, if the EPA has certified a hybrid electric vehicle as bin 2, the vehicle will be presumed to retain that bin 2 rating following the plug-in hybrid electric conversion unless an EPA emissions certification is submitted verifying a rating change for the vehicle. In general, this means that plug-in hybrid electric conversions will qualify under Category 6 or 7, if at all.


Category 6 is 10% rebate, and Category 7 is 0% rebate, so converting hybrids to plug in is no longer mostly paid for...

I called the tax hotline, and they know plenty about this rebate - because they are denying a lot of people for it.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So by "plug-in hybrid", you mean converting a prius to hybrid? (not converting a gas car to plug-in only?) - which is what this line must reference on the publication:

"For tax years commencing on or after January 1,2012, but prior to January 1, 2016, the maximum credit allowable for a plug-in hybrid electric conversion is $7,500."

Unfortunately, my experience with the hotline (1 half hour call) was that they didn't know what they were talking about. They had me thinking plug-in hybrid was what I was doing.

Am I right in my understanding that converting a car to plug-in conversion is 
"Category 1: Motor vehicles that comply with bin 1 of the federal tier 2 emissions standards qualify under Category 1."?


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## otedawg (Apr 23, 2012)

marklaken said:


> So by "plug-in hybrid", you mean converting a prius to hybrid? (not converting a gas car to plug-in only?) - which is what this line must reference on the publication:
> 
> "For tax years commencing on or after January 1,2012, but prior to January 1, 2016, the maximum credit allowable for a plug-in hybrid electric conversion is $7,500."
> 
> ...


Mark,
That is correct. Both our vehicles are converted to alternative (electric) fuel. We therefore fit in Category 1, which is 75% rebate up to $6000.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Is there any reason to get a CANbus adapter on the charger if I don't intend to use BMS?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Updates:
- Disc Brakes were added. The cheap CIP1 disc brake kit that I bought for my '69 was extremely easy - everything went in and fit perfectly on my stock height beetle - piece of cake.

- Batteries have been ordered from Don. Should be here soon. 38 Calb grey cells with bus bars. Don said they measure above 117 aH per cell - so does this mean I have a little extra capacity, or do all cells measure above their rated capacity? Either way, that makes me more comfortable running without BMS.

- Finances are recovering from battery purchase, but hope to get motor, charger, and controller by end of summer.

Battery box questions (batteries will be in the cabin of the beetle behind the rear seat):

- what is considered minimal venting? no vents required? vent to interior of car? to exterior of car? to exterior of car with a fan?...

- The car is going to be stored outside at home and at work. In the winter do I need to heat the battery pack? Winter temps occasionally drop below 0 degrees farenheit at night and typically drop below freezing during the day. I can live with the decreased range, concern is about damaging the battery pack...

- In the summer temps climb to over 100 degrees in June and July - interior car temps might climb to 120 degrees - do I need to cool the batteries or run a vent fan through the battery box when the vehicle is parked in the sun?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Updates:
- Disc Brakes were added. The cheap CIP1 disc brake kit that I bought for my '69 was extremely easy - everything went in and fit perfectly on my stock height beetle - piece of cake.

- Batteries have been ordered from Don. Should be here soon. 38 Calb grey cells with bus bars. Don said they measure above 117 aH per cell - so does this mean I have a little extra capacity, or do all cells measure above their rated capacity? Either way, that makes me more comfortable running without BMS.

- Finances are recovering from battery purchase, but hope to get motor, charger, and controller by end of summer.

Battery box questions (batteries will be in the cabin of the beetle behind the rear seat):

- what is considered minimal venting? no vents required? vent to interior of car? to exterior of car? to exterior of car with a fan?...

- The car is going to be stored outside at home and at work. In the winter do I need to heat the battery pack? Winter temps occasionally drop below 0 degrees farenheit at night and typically drop below freezing during the day. I can live with the decreased range, concern is about damaging the battery pack...

- In the summer temps climb to over 100 degrees in June and July - interior car temps might climb to 120 degrees - do I need to cool the batteries or run a vent fan through the battery box when the vehicle is parked in the sun?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

The cells will be much less saggy if heated, but if they are well insulated you shouldn't need it unless the reduced range will be an issue for you.

I don't cool mine in the summer, but I do leave the windows cracked when it's hot. I'll have to take the temp gun to em to see how much cooler they sit than I do from the insulation.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Alright - half way there! got my batteries today - Thanks Don! - 38 CALB grey cells.

38 cells * 3.2 V * 117 Ah = 14277 WH / 300 WH/mile * 70% = 33 mile range, which exceeds my wife's longest in town driving day (20 miles). 

So the batteries came with a sheet that gives Capacity, Open circuit voltage, and internal resistance. The internal resistance fluctuates a bit - does this matter? (.28 to .47)

Now that I have something to work with, can I assemble my battery boxes and install the pack (minus the bus bars) prior to balancing the batteries?

Does balancing the batteries affect their individual location in the pack?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

If you're balancing by connecting the batteries in parallel, it may be easier to do that before you install them...


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, I did mine on a bench before putting in the car. Was quite simple finishing in parallel once I had made the hardware I needed.

I assembled mine in order by stated capacity, just so I'd have a referene of some kind if there's ever any issues. So far, so good.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So I'm thinking maybe I should just put all my batteries on the suitcase shelf and fabricate a custom backseat back rest (maybe add a 39th cell as well, then my pack would be a solid rectangle - probably not much cost difference from having to fuse the two packs and build a second battery box under the rear seat). I am doing my best to keep it stupid simple.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You should add the 39th cell.  I'm running 39 cells in my VW Bug, a mini-t beach buggy with 39, 60 amp hour Thunder Sky cells above the transaxle. 









You actual range will likely exceed your expectations. I can do 33 miles with 60 amp hour cells, provided I keep it to city speeds (40 mph and under.) I will guess you can manage 50 miles if you run LLR tires and take care of the suspension, brakes, and alignment. Don't try that until you know those things are perfect, and even then creep up on it while checking the pack. Don't over-discharge even once, as it can kill cells and even if it doesn't I'd bet it isn't good for cycle life.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I like 39 in my pack because I can use 3 cheap DVMs to monitor for any imbalance. I only turn em on for about 1 drive a month though.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I've been studying pack assembly and wondering if I can get away with a thick aluminum plate on each end of my 13 cell wide x 3 cell deep pack (39th cell in the works) and then use a pair of ratchet straps to tighten the pack all together into one giant brick? Can the short sides of the individual battery packs balloon? 

Is there a reason folks make small packs (4x1 or 5x1 bricks)? - is it just for convenience? because some packs come with straps and end plates? or because more than 5 thick allows too much expansion between cells?


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Battery box under construction - 1/8" x 10" flat steel stock - a little heavy, but also simple and clean. The bottom will have 1" insulation to lift the cells up a little. I plan to weld it in place to the parcel shelf in the back of the bug. I think it should adequately restrain the cells and meet the manufacturer's enclosure requirements.

Not sure if it makes sense to insulate the exterior of the metal, since the metal will be in direct contact with the exterior of the car. I have room to add 1" insulation.

I plan to fabricate an insulated Aluminum lid that will get covered in tweed vinyl and attach via leather belts giving it the general appearance of a piece of luggage in back.

Does it need to be vented (to exterior of car?)...


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## nucleus (May 18, 2012)

No venting needed, keep us updated on your project.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

unless you do something to hurt your cells there should be no expansion. Mine are strapped together, but only to minimize movement between cells.

Anywhere you can insulate should help some. best to have it inside to isolate them from car contact, but wherever you have to put it is better than nothing.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So I am trying to determine if my Albright SW-180B-2 contactor is appropriate for my voltage and controller. I think the link below describes the contactor I have (It is the link from Albright's site for a SW 180 contactor). Does the B in my contactor's label stand for Blowouts?

http://www.albrightinternational.com/lang/en/products.php?ID=645

What numbers do I need to look at on their table? 

I have 39 cells x 3.5V = 136.5 max voltage - correct? If my contactor has blowouts and is rated for upto 250v (with blowout), I should be ok, correct?

Do I need to consider Amperage if I am using the contactor in conjunction with a Syncromotive controller (the controller manages Amps and contactor simply powers up the system using my 12 v auxillary battery, right?)... 

As always, the help is very much appreciated, Mark.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Looks good to me. The amps your controller pulls need to be within the limits of the contactor.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I've been getting lost a lot in the charging section of the forum (lots of wildly different opinions on how to balance a pack) but I can't find much direction on how to actually drain and recharge individual cells.

So, when I top or bottom balance my non-bms pack, what should I use to drain and recharge the individual cells? Obviously a digital volt meter to take readings, but do I use a resistor to drain them (and if so what size?) and what would recharge individual cells to their "top"?


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## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

marklaken said:


> I've been getting lost a lot in the charging section of the forum (lots of wildly different opinions on how to balance a pack) but I can't find much direction on how to actually drain and recharge individual cells.
> 
> So, when I top or bottom balance my non-bms pack, what should I use to drain and recharge the individual cells? Obviously a digital volt meter to take readings, but do I use a resistor to drain them (and if so what size?) and what would recharge individual cells to their "top"?


I used a pump motor that would draw 30 amps to drain mine. There are much better ways. They need to be in series when you recharge so they all get the same amount back in. The first cell to 3.5 or where ever you decide to charge is the one with the least capacity. Stop there . Now they all have the same in them and should get to the bottom together.

Alvin


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Use your motor in your car but you will need to monitor each cell that you discharge. No walking away. If you have a JLD volt meter you can set up a relay to shut off a contactor to shut off your cell to the motor. Drain one cell at a time down to like 2.6 volts static. Set your meter to 2.55 volts. once each reads like 2.65 or 2.7 static (resting a day) then you can connect all your cells together and charge them as one up to like 3.5 volts average for the entire pack. Once you reach that point stop the charge. I thought we already went over this. 


Pete


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So it looks like my next purchase is the Elcon charger and netgain impulse motor. 

When shopping for a charger, I can figure maximum charge time by the following calculation (correct?):

#cells * volts/cell * amphours/cell * %DOD / amps charger puts out / charger input voltage / charger efficiency = time in hours

Elcon 2000+ at 115volts
39 cells * 3.2v * 110 amp hours * .70 / 12 amps / 115 v / .92 = 7.6 hours?

Elcon 1500 at 115 volts:
39 cells * 3.2v * 110 amp hours * .70 / 10 amps / 115v / ,92 = 9.1 hours?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> So it looks like my next purchase is the Elcon charger and netgain impulse motor.
> 
> When shopping for a charger, I can figure maximum charge time by the following calculation (correct?):
> 
> ...



aproximately.... Since Li cells don't have a gassing overcharge the chargers tend to be pretty efficient in getting most of the juice intot he batteries. The MAX time can be estimated by taking your target max DOD% capacity, and dividing by how many watts the charger can deliver.

The Elcon 1500s deliver about 1300-1400 watts under most conditions. The 2000 probably will get you closer to 2000 watts, but run the risk of popping a 110vAC circuit breaker unless there is no other load on the circuit. If you are going less than 50 miles a day, the 1500 units make sense for an overnight charge. If you are regularly going over 50 miles a day, you should consider something like a 3000 and run on 220vAC to get enough juice on board overnight.

From the looks of your pack, 39 x 100ah cells, the Elcon1500 is plenty for the average 50%-70%DOD day. The 1500 obviously keeps the cost down compared to higher capacity units.

In closing..... I have a bunch of elcon 1500, and a couple elcon 3000 I am (slowly) liquidating from an old deal-gone-bad on behalf of a group settlement. These are new units, but been sitting on the shelf, and probably need to be re-programmed to your specifics. I am offering the 1500s for $505, and the 3000s for $955, including re-programming and shipping.... pretty good discount from retail. Let me know via email if you'd like one.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for all the help getting me this far. I have a question regarding the Elcon chargers - the CALB CA cells were supplied with documentation showing roughly 117 to 119 aH per cell. When ordering the charger, do I list the cells as 100 aH cells or 110 aH cells? Does that make a difference when charging with a non-BMS system?


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

List it as 100


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> Thanks for all the help getting me this far. I have a question regarding the Elcon chargers - the CALB CA cells were supplied with documentation showing roughly 117 to 119 aH per cell. When ordering the charger, do I list the cells as 100 aH cells or 110 aH cells? Does that make a difference when charging with a non-BMS system?


use the nominal 100 ah rating. The Elcon curve uses that number to determine appropriate end current at which to end charge.

DO you already HAVE a charger? I still have a bunch I am preparing to sell. The couple I've sold so far I send to be programmed, then drop-shipped directly to you. Elcon 1500 priced at $505 including programming and shipping in the US.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> I've been getting lost a lot in the charging section of the forum (lots of wildly different opinions on how to balance a pack) but I can't find much direction on how to actually drain and recharge individual cells.
> 
> So, when I top or bottom balance my non-bms pack, what should I use to drain and recharge the individual cells? Obviously a digital volt meter to take readings, but do I use a resistor to drain them (and if so what size?) and what would recharge individual cells to their "top"?


as we discussed off-forum.... you can use something like 50 watt resistors with alligator clips to drain from individual cells, or a power supply to add a little. individual cell tweaking takes a lot of time because for top balance you end up:
- doing a charge
- measuring all cells as fast as you can post-charge to catch peak voltage before it settles to find cells too far above the 'average'.
- then decide if you only have a couple high, drain a little off them. if you have a couple low, you MIGHT want to add a little.
... but then you have to repeat until all are within +/- .05v at end of charge to call them balanced.

if you are top balancing, its almost easier just to:
- charge
- short drive to drain about 1ah or 2ah off the pack
- go thru entire pack with power supply (like a $150 Mastek or equiv), bringing all cells up to target finish voltage .... this is time consuming because the less expensive power supplies only put out about 30-40 watts and takes a fair amount of babysitting because you have to end the charge consistantly; either just as the cell hits you 'end voltage', or holding it until amps drop to some consistant level, so they are all the same.

I have some pix of how I tweak the balance in my Swift gallery


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> if you are top balancing, its almost easier just to:
> - charge
> - short drive to drain about 1ah or 2ah off the pack
> - go thru entire pack with power supply (like a $150 Mastek or equiv), bringing all cells up to target finish voltage


Why would you drive off 1-2 ah if you're going to have to put at least that much into each cell?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Why would you drive off 1-2 ah if you're going to have to put at least that much into each cell?


because if any of the cells were charged 'above average target value' at end of charge (presuming they are out of balance, then some WILL be above average target), they would still be above the other cells if you bring them all up to target voltage. 

If you bring them ALL down a little, then you are assured that you are bringing them all up to the same top voltage, and presumably holding that voltage until amps drop to the same level to have them all top balanced as closely as possible.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

If you're assuming some are overcharged anyway, how can you be sure none are overcharged by no more than 1-2 ah?

I would certainly not do a full series charge prior to balancing them. The top balance should be the highest the cells ever go to.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> If you're assuming some are overcharged anyway, how can you be sure none are overcharged by no more than 1-2 ah?
> 
> I would certainly not do a full series charge prior to balancing them. The top balance should be the highest the cells ever go to.



we were talking about re-balancing after some period of driving around...

I haven't seen much if any relative drift in all the times I checked post-install. I seriously doubt they would be *very* far apart. Backing 1 or 2 aH off a 'full' pack charge is just an estimate based on what I've seen with my packs that would insure all cells are brought up from a slightly discharged state to a new tightly controlled top-balance parameter at some voltage and held until amps drop to some specific level to be re-balanced.

you could re-balance from any state of charge, but it just takes longer.... assuming your individual cell charger probably pumps out less wattage than your on-board regular charger.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Oh, ok. I was thinking initial balance. I guess it depends how you have the charge setup. Mine never go close to where they were balanced at, so it would be silly to drain anything before taking them up if there were a need to rebalance. 

If not doing it in parallel, you top balance by taking each cell to 'full' So whether they start out at 90% or 99% they should still finish the same.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Oh, ok. I was thinking initial balance. I guess it depends how you have the charge setup. Mine never go close to where they were balanced at, so it would be silly to drain anything before taking them up if there were a need to rebalance.
> 
> If not doing it in parallel, you top balance by taking each cell to 'full' So whether they start out at 90% or 99% they should still finish the same.


I think we're saying pretty much the same thing...

The top-balance vpc probably SHOULD be above where you plan to finish your regular charge. An accurate balance is easier off the flat part of the voltage curve where you can be more sure the voltage corresponds to a 'full' state of charge. I.e. you might want to balance to 3.70 volts, but then set your charger to end when it sees a total pack voltage of 3.50 to 3.60 x #cells.

whether you start with the pack half full or nearly full doesn't matter, it just might take longer depending on how fast your individual cell charger is compared to your pack charger.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Can someone explain the differences between the warp9 and impulse 9 motors for me (I understand the size differences and installation issues with the Warp9). If cost/fit was not an object, which motor is better suited for my 120v vw bug application? 

I have looked at Netgains 72volt table and see the warp9 spins at a lower RPM and higher torque for a given amperage. I would be inclined to think the Impulse 9's higher rpms/lower torque would be better for a vw bug, but that the smaller motor would also be spinning faster and at higher amps (so it would be working harder/hotter).


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> Can someone explain the differences between the warp9 and impulse 9 motors for me ... which motor is better suited for my 120v vw bug application?



the impulse9, or an ADC8", would be plenty for near stock performance. The Warp9 will get you higher peak torque and higher sustained output for highway.

so.... just a performance/cost decision.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

The wiring diagrams for the synkromotive controller don't show a main fuse location in their instructions. What is the standard best practice location - I assume it goes on the positive. Does it go between the battery and contactor, or between the contactor and speed controller or between the speed controller and motor? And what about the emergency shut-off switch - where should it go? 

http://www.evsource.com/datasheets/S...r%20manual.pdf

Also when I hookup the (+) lead on the battery charger can I wire it to the "always on" (+) on the contactor?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> The wiring diagrams for the synkromotive controller don't show a main fuse location in their instructions. What is the standard best practice location - I assume it goes on the positive. Does it go between the battery and contactor, or between the contactor and speed controller or between the speed controller and motor? And what about the emergency shut-off switch - where should it go?
> 
> http://www.evsource.com/datasheets/S...r%20manual.pdf
> 
> Also when I hookup the (+) lead on the battery charger can I wire it to the "always on" (+) on the contactor?


the goals are to have the main fuse between the battery pack and the controller, it is sometimes a handy to use it as a way to get the main cable to make a 90 deg turn. I don't think it really matters whether it is on the - or + leg. some people even put the main fuse mid-pack if you have several battery racks.

the main circuit breaker/manual disconnect you probably want close to the 'most' pos or neg lead coming in to your contactor/fuse/controller area so that when you flip the breaker off, all that stuff is dead and you don't have to worry as much about accidental shorts while working on that stuff. The charger you want to wire into the system probably right at the B+, B- of the controller so that your amp-hr meter shunt/sensor sees and displays the charge coming in as you charge.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

If I wire the (+) of the charger to the (B+) on the speed controller, won't the circuit be broken unless the main contactor is turned on (key on?)

Also, my project car came with a Ferraz Shawmut A15QS400 fuse (150v 400amp) - since I am at 120v, this fuse should work for my application but do I need to limit the performance of the controller? and if so, what would be a safe max amperage - 400 (as rated)? or can I go higher since the slow burn fuse can handle short bursts of more amps, right? On the "Melt Chart" for this fuse, 700 amps = 10 seconds; 600 amps = 150 seconds; and 500 amps is off the chart (more than 1000 seconds).


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> If I wire the (+) of the charger to the (B+) on the speed controller, won't the circuit be broken unless the main contactor is turned on (key on?)


well, yeah.... gotta be upstream of the contactor. the main circuit breaker is a handy place to stack a couple leads to the charger and dc-dc. Or, at least to a little sub-box where you might have fuses, inductors, and THEN split to the charger/dc-dc. inductors are probably only required for the Soliton controllers, but not a bad idea for some of the other new-tech ones like Zilla, Raptor, Synkromotive to prevent controller ripple from beating up your charger and dc-dc.




marklaken said:


> Also, my project car came with a Ferraz Shawmut A15QS400 fuse (150v 400amp) - since I am at 120v, this fuse should work for my application but do I need to limit the performance of the controller?


probably no limiting required. you'd only pull 400+ amps for *short* accelerations. maintaining highway speed will probably be less than 200 amps, so no worries.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

So the inductor prevents electricity to go into the charger from the controller? Where do I find them (I haven't come across them in my research)?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marklaken said:


> So the inductor prevents electricity to go into the charger from the controller? Where do I find them (I haven't come across them in my research)?



inductors are sort of a 'new thing' that are a good idea to add with the new controllers like Soliton that weren't really needed with old-school controllers like Curtis. My lame mechanical explanation is they are sort of like an electronic 'shock absorber' that evens out the chopped voltage rippling back thru the HV circuit from the controller.

They are not expensive, and probably not absolutely required for any controller other than the Soliton which has slightly different guts than most.

you can look for 100uH x 10a inductor on eBay, Mouser, Digikey and find them for about $12-$15. You need two, one for each leg +/- between controller and charger/dc-dc.

SOME chargers and SOME dc-dc protect themselves with internal inductors and diodes, but the cheaper ones may not, so its better to add then shorten the life of the units.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

some pictures of my installed battery box and re-engineered backseat backrest. I plan to reupholster the seats next year and upholster the battery box lid in tweed so that it looks like a piece of vintage luggage.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

looking nice.... you have no cells under the front hood in gastank area?

you wanna replace the 'D' sticker with an 'EV'? I had some printed up on quality vinyl, they were something like $5 ea.....


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I am keeping it simple stupid. All of my cells are behind the rear passenger seat in an insulated box. The electronics will go in the motor bay. I will have just a coupe feet of 2/0 wire connecting the batteries to the electronics. 

It will be too heavy in the rear for the stock suspension setup. Luckily old vws are really easy to modify the suspension and I can easily add stiffness to the rear suspension by adjusting the spring plates at the torsion housing. I will do that after I get everything installed.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

some progress pictures - feel free to make suggestions -especially in regards to wiring - I was surprised at how difficult it was to figure out how and where to put components.




























All I have left to do is the 12V wiring to the controller/contactor and install the throttle pot switch. Hoping to go for a test drive next weekend! Been a long time coming...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

whoo hoo..... post your 'ev grin' on first trip around the block!


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

http://youtu.be/RSsTnfqTfPg

It moved! - first successful powerup and test drive in the garage last night! - more testing to come this weekend! Now I get to figure out where to set the synkromotive GUI for my batteries and motoring needs.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Alright - a weekend full of test drives around my neighborhood was very successful. I am impressed by how much control I have over the driving characteristics with the Synkromotive GUI. 

Using the reverse gear is the most difficult part - it is jerky (low gear ratio, and my torque at the motor is not adjustable for reverse because I am using a clutch and the standard reverse gearing in the beetle - so there is no reverse rotation of the motor or reverse switch/contactor - the motor always spins CCW.

I think I can solve it the problem with more modulation at the gas pedal - any ideas how to improve this? I am using a basic pb-6 throttle and I did program the Synkromotive GUI for the throttle box range of motion. The VW's gas pedal does not pull very much cable, and thus, the throttle box only moves about 50% of it's available range. Would increased range of throttle cable pull (more movement at the throttle box) improve gas pedal modulation? - (intuitively it seems like it should).

The vehicle is not jerky in forward because I start it in second gear and was able to program the GUI for incredibly smooth forward acceleration. (first is jerky, but with stock vw gearing, the shift point come to fast for my liking at 15 mph and I don't want to risk over-reving the motor).

Got insurance today, will get it licensed tomorrow, and should be up to longer range testing by mid-week!


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

marklaken said:


> Alright - a weekend full of test drives around my neighborhood was very successful. I am impressed by how much control I have over the driving characteristics with the Synkromotive GUI.
> 
> Using the reverse gear is the most difficult part - it is jerky (low gear ratio, and my torque at the motor is not adjustable for reverse because I am using a clutch and the standard reverse gearing in the beetle - so there is no reverse rotation of the motor or reverse switch/contactor - the motor always spins CCW.
> 
> ...


Great to hear it's up and running! There is a field in the Synkro GUI that lets you set the reverse power setting. It requires that you have the reverse lights wired into the controller (so it knows you are in reverse...). If I recall (it's been a while since I messed with the controller) you set the reverse limit as a percentage of power or something like that. I know I played with it when setting it up, and it does make a difference for sure.

I do think that having more range of motion would make for a smoother throttle, and in my case I got a significant throttle smoothness improvement when I went from a PB-6 to a Soliton throttle box.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply. I can't remember if I wired my reverse wire ( I remember labeling the wires and finding the wire to the transmission, but maybe I missed a wire when I hooked everything up) (or maybe the old reverse light switch needs to be replaced). I will give that a shot! - I did see the reverse amperage setting in the GUI.

My first upgrades will be to add a DC/DC converter and a throttle RPM sensor for over-rev protection. Throttle box will be my third priority.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Where on the linkage do have your cable connected? On the far end or middle or close in to the pot? With a short distance pull of your throttle you may want to set the cable in the middle or as close to the pot as possible. That will allow more throw on the pot and will give a better average so your throttle is smoother. With a short cable and connected in close you can still get some pretty impressive throttle responses. It will be smoother. I like mine set in the middle. I'll try mine a bit closer with the Bug. 


Excellent to hear of your success. Enjoy your ride. 

Pete


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

here's a pic of my throttle at pedal to the metal:









I have the throttle cable as low as it can go on the lever arm. I could make a secondary lever to get additional throttle range - not sure if it would help, but again intuitively it seems like I should try and use as much range as possible.

I also inspected my reverse switch and it is not hooked up - so I will get on that and incorporate the reverse switch wire from the controller 12V wire harness.


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

I am curious if I can use the full motor rpm range in any given gear, or if I should restrain my shift points at the top of the rpm range for the sake of the transmission (and/or motor)? What RPMs do you shift your EV - close to stock shift points or substantially above stock shift points? 

I drove the beetle to my first EV enthusiast meeting last week and it did great. Easily hits 45 mph and it's a very quick little car - I think I have the GUI tuned more for fun than range right now. The old transmission mounts weren't very happy, I am in the process of changing them now. I should have done that before I put the motor in, but I was too anxious.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

marklaken said:


> I am curious if I can use the full motor rpm range in any given gear, or if I should restrain my shift points at the top of the rpm range for the sake of the transmission (and/or motor)? What RPMs do you shift your EV - close to stock shift points or substantially above stock shift points?
> 
> I drove the beetle to my first EV enthusiast meeting last week and it did great. Easily hits 45 mph and it's a very quick little car - I think I have the GUI tuned more for fun than range right now. The old transmission mounts weren't very happy, I am in the process of changing them now. I should have done that before I put the motor in, but I was too anxious.


I did the math. For my Warp9, I want to shift a touch before 5000 RPM; lower if I need more torque. I (roughly):
1st - unused
2nd - up to 40 mph
3rd - up to 65 mph
4th - up to 100 mph

I based it on the gear ratio of my transmission and tire size. I probably have this somewhere on http://corbinstreehouse.com

corbin


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## marklaken (Jan 26, 2012)

My beetle has been on the road for about a year now, but I recently made some improvements that have really put the vehicle over the top for driveability. I replaced the curtis reostat with a netgain throttle and the car drives so much better - throttle response is identical to a regular car now, where as before it was a bit jumpy. I also added a dc-dc converter which makes night driving much more enjoyable (brighter headlights!). 

I also finally got my $6k Colorado Tax rebate, which took much longer than I had anticipated. I filed in early Feb. and received my check in mid-July. Total conversion cost ended up right around $5500 after the rebate. 

Overall I am a very happy EV conversion owner. I've also become pretty active on our local effort to improve EV infrastructure thru the group "Drive Electric Northern Colorado" http://driveelectricnoco.org/ I also plugged DIYElectriccar on a writeup that group did about me last year: http://driveelectricnoco.org/2014/06/1969-vw-beetle-upcycled-ev/


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