# Anyone using Tritium Wavesculpture inverters



## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Hi All,

I am thinking of using one of these in my EV conversion, so just thought I would post if someone had purchased one of these beasts from Oz land ..

They are a bit on the expensive side, but are real easy to set up on any AC motor.

I intend using it with an EVE AC30 motor ..

Cheers,
Bernard.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> ... if someone had purchased one of these beasts from Oz land ..


Yes. I live in Oz Land, about 8 miles from the factory.



> I intend using it with an EVE AC30 motor ..


We're using it with an industrial 22 kW motor, 230 V delta.

EV Album page
Build thread (long)


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> We're using it with an industrial 22 kW motor, 230 V delta.


Thanks for that. So how are you finding the Controller?

Interested in what motor brand/model you used and what sort of
performance you get from it?

Thanks.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> So how are you finding the Controller?


Ah. We're bogged down with Battery Management development at present. After that, we can finish all 8 battery cages (well, we can start with one half-pack), and do the wiring. So we're a few months from running it, unfortunately.



> Interested in what motor brand/model you used and what sort of
> performance you get from it?


Well, we've actually had some performance data from Tritium.

It's an ABB 3GAA 131 008E (S variant):










So that's 230 V (delta) 22 kW nominal at 50 Hz, in a 132 frame (264 mm diameter).










The tests were with a ~ 360 VDC nominal battery that sagged to 350, 340, and 330 VDC respectively with 300, 200, and 100 A motor current (RMS current per phase).

We do hope to swap to a higher voltage version of the Tritium controller (if and when it becomes available) so that we can get about 100 kW peak mechanical from the motor at lower motor current, and we also intend to operate it at higher speeds. (Their test "dynamometer" happened to be a low speed motor, with a maximum speed of 2500 RPM). As you can see, we didn't even get to nominal speed (the torque is flat, apart from the collapsing test battery), so this test doesn't find the motor's maximum power.

The Tritium Wavesculptor 200 at AU$6000 (plus $600 GST) replaces a Control Techniques industrial controller that cost over AU$13,000 for about the same peak power, and is much physically smaller and lighter. We decided on the change when we found that it really was going to be very difficult to squeeze the industrial (CT) controller into our small MX-5. We also needed to buy some water cooling gear, at around AU$500 (from poor memory). The industrial controller was air cooled. Even so, the Tritium is about half the price of the industrial controller.

So we're quite happy with the price, size, weight, and performance of this controller. Unfortunately, we can't tell give you any real-world experience with it as yet.

References:

Motor arrives
Motor performance curves
Cooling gear arrives


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Many thanks for that, the specs look good, that is a great torque figure.

So was it the CALIB cells that were sagging in voltage at the 300A? I take it you were using 60A/h or 90A/h cells? 

What did the motor cost?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> So was it the CALIB cells that were sagging in voltage at the 300A?


I don't remember if they were clapped out Thunder Skys or Lead Acid; they were hidden away inside a wooden box. It was not our SE/CALB cells.



> What did the motor cost?


Although it was from an ABB catalogue, it seems to be a special order. It took many months to get a proper quote, then to get the thing made and shipped, and then it arrived with the wrong flange. It ended up costing us around AU$2600, a lot more than the ~ AU$1000 that more "standard" motors were going for. I think they charge a premium for the hassle of packing all that copper into such a small space. If we had the space, we'd probably have gone for a larger frame motor, but there was no way a 160 frame motor would fit into an MX-5 (Miata).


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> Although it was from an ABB catalogue, it seems to be a special order. It took many months to get a proper quote, then to get the thing made and shipped, and then it arrived with the wrong flange. It ended up costing us around AU$2600, a lot more than the ~ AU$1000 that more "standard" motors were going for. I think they charge a premium for the hassle of packing all that copper into such a small space. If we had the space, we'd probably have gone for a larger frame motor, but there was no way a 160 frame motor would fit into an MX-5 (Miata).


Thanks for that. I compared the torque/power data you published, and so far it looks to out perform the EVE AC30 and AC40 motors, so am impressed.

I would like to see what it is going to cost here in New Zealand, might pay a visit to ABB down the road from my work ..

So when you ordered the motor, did you specify the voltage as 240vRMS DELTA connection and a 132 size case? I take it they have to do a special wind for that voltage .. do you think you will have to add any forced air cooling, or does the motor have that built in ... bit hard to see in the photo .. by the way, what was the weight of the motor?

Thanks.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> I would like to see what it is going to cost here in New Zealand, might pay a visit to ABB down the road from my work ..


Yes, do. If that fails, you might like to contact David Gayner of Control Logic, Australia. It seems from a review of old email that he was instrumental in getting the motor ordered.

[ Edit: It was David Gayner that visited us; here are his details:

David Gayner : : Automation and Drives Sales
*Control Logic Pty Ltd*

*T: *07 3623 1212  *D:* 07 3623 1231
*F:* 07 3623 1211 *M:* 0409 626 817
*  www.control-logic.com.au*

He's based in Brisbane, as are Dave and I (Weber and Coulomb on the AEVA and here). ]



> So when you ordered the motor, did you specify the voltage as 240vRMS DELTA connection and a 132 size case?
> The 132 frame size is part of the motor part number. Here are the numbers from the catalogue, along with numbers for a few other motors you might want to look at:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

I've corrected our contact David Gayner's details above. I'll repeat them here, in this new post:

David Gayner : : Automation and Drives Sales
*Control Logic Pty Ltd*

*T: *07 3623 1212  *D:* 07 3623 1231
*F:* 07 3623 1211 *M:* 0409 626 817
*  www.control-logic.com.au*

He's based in Brisbane. Woody (from Sydney) has also ordered his motor through David. I'm not sure if another company has to be involved; our motor was ordered through Electronic Innovations; Weber used to work there and is still in contact with the staff. It's possible that you need a company (with an Australian Business Number or equivalent) to order; something to ask.

In earlier posts, I was confusing Control Logic and Control Techniques; I hope I've corrected everything now.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks again.

One last question for now: How are you mounting the motor, normally in an EV application you mount an adapter plate to the end of the motor, so is the motor available in that sort of mount configuration. (Most industrial motors come with a mounting foot..)

Sorry for all these questions, but I can't seem to find the motor catalogue on any of the ABB web sites ..


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> I can't seem to find the motor catalogue on any of the ABB web sites ..


Use this page:

http://www.abb.com/product/seitp322/3b3fd5bde2d32853c1256dac0041b047.aspx

You can find a motor like ours by searching for something like "131 008" or "132 007" (with the quotes).

Both of the above (currently) bring up this PDF: Low voltage Industrial performance motors. (In power AC terms, 400 V is low voltage. High voltage is 11,000+ volts. I've been wanting to put a sticker on an EV that says "Danger! Low Voltage!"


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> How are you mounting the motor, normally in an EV application you mount an adapter plate to the end of the motor, so is the motor available in that sort of mount configuration. (Most industrial motors come with a mounting foot..)


Yes, feet are standard, but a large or small mounting flange is just another option to order the motor with. Or you can just order an adapter for any existing motor.

We're using an adapter we get made, as per these posts:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=980&PID=25795#25795
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=980&PID=29639#29639
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=980&PID=29840#29840

Maybe you should read our build thread. It's less than 800 posts... what's your problem?


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> Maybe you should read our build thread. It's less than 800 posts... what's your problem?


Funny man !! 

I read through some of it .. then fell asleep ...

Maybe you can gain me some awake time by telling me how you mounted the shaft encoder and where you purchased it from .. I could not see how you mounted it .. especially as you are mounting a pulley in place of the on-board fan.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> ... how you mounted the shaft encoder and where you purchased it from ..


It is this one from RS components:

http://australia.rs-online.com/web/...Term=Encoder,incremental,2400,360ppr+&x=0&y=0

It seems to also be available from RS-online in New Zealand.

It's not mounted properly at the moment. We used a bad technique to drill the motor's shaft for the encoder's shaft, and now it's loose. We'll have to pack the shaft with a shim or something. Right now, so we can test the motor, we're using blutac and just using its cable to prevent it rotating. We intend to just use a small bracket to prevent rotation. The encoder is the same diameter as the shaft; it's a tiny thing.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks Coulomb,

I just got a quote from ABB here in New Zealand for the motor at $3100NZ which is pretty good, I think I am only up for some local freight from the shipping depo.

So I think I will follow your lead on this one and order the motor, I will also order the Wavesculpture200 when the exchange rate improves between AU and NZ.

By the way, what are you doing regarding getting a temperature sensor on the motor, I did not see any options to do that as an order option, so it looks like going to have to embed on somewhere on the case.

Please keep this thread up to date on your progress. By the way, have you made an entry into www.evalbum.com yet?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> I just got a quote from ABB here in New Zealand for the motor at $3100NZ which is pretty good, I think I am only up for some local freight from the shipping depo.


Yes, that sounds quite reasonable.



> By the way, what are you doing regarding getting a temperature sensor on the motor, I did not see any options to do that as an order option, so it looks like going to have to embed on somewhere on the case.


Oh, there will be an option to give a lot of money to ABB to put in up to 3 temperature sensors, but it came to about AU$650 from memory. We just siliconed in a PT100 (I think) thermistor right on one of the windings, and brought the leads out to a ceramic terminal strip in the cable box.



Wavesculptor user manual said:


> Motor Temperature Sensor – 100k 25°C NTC thermistor
> BethTherm 10KD6A372I
> Farnell 970-7298


We had the wrong one; TJ tossed ours out and put in the correct one that the Wavesculptor is expecting, when testing our motor. The above is an NTC thermistor (good for measuring approximate temperature); I previously posted a PTC (good only for go/nogo).

So this one should be suitable.



> By the way, have you made an entry into www.evalbum.com yet?


Yes; here: 1990 Mazda MX-5 AC

It could possibly do with another update or two.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

bmentink said:


> Thanks Coulomb,
> 
> I just got a quote from ABB here in New Zealand for the motor at $3100NZ which is pretty good, I think I am only up for some local freight from the shipping depo.
> 
> So I think I will follow your lead on this one and order the motor, I will also order the Wavesculpture200 when the exchange rate improves between AU and NZ.


That was a quick reply you got for the price! Are you sure you got the right voltage etc? Does that include GST?
Currently James Kennedy of Tritium is getting a quote from SEW who made the following comments;


> I would suggest going to a copper-rotor 160-frame motor, which will be a good match to the maximum voltage/current output from our controller. You should be able to achieve about 120kW peak from this combination. Continuous rating will depend on what cooling solution you have for the motor, with placement in the vehicle, forced air fans, etc all having a big impact. Continuous power rating is entirely dependent on thermal design.


Good luck with waiting for the exchange rate to change!

What donor vehicle are you going to use and will you direct drive?


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

karlos said:


> That was a quick reply you got for the price! Are you sure you got the right voltage etc? Does that include GST?
> 
> Good luck with waiting for the exchange rate to change!
> 
> What donor vehicle are you going to use and will you direct drive?


No, GST not included. Yep the exchange rate probably will go the wrong way .. must check my crystal ball.

I am using a Holden/Opel Calibra as my donor. It is FWD so driving direct to gearbox, no clutch.

@Coulomb Can you tell us what was your reasoning behind choosing Sky Energy Cells over Thunder Sky?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> @Coulomb Can you tell us what was your reasoning behind choosing Sky Energy Cells over Thunder Sky?


The problem is getting energy out of LiFePO4 cells quickly enough, without paying A123 money, or connecting many Headway cells. At the time of our purchase decision, it seemed that Sky Energy would do 4C where Thunder Sky would do only 3C (for periods of around one minute, when you might need acceleration for an EV).

Since then, the difference seems less, but present. Maybe we're biased after having spent around AU$14K on Sky Energy cells. At the time, the price difference was only about 5%.

We still ended up with more energy in our pack than we would have liked. So we'd like to have say 1/2 or 2/3 the range at proportionally less weight and cost. But then, we'd need to draw more current from each cell, to get the same power, so then we'd need larger cells, and we're back to the same weight and cost.

For our 40 Ah cells, 4C is 160 A, which with sag to 3.0 VPC should give us just over 100 kW electrical. With only 3C, that's 120 A, or 82 kW electrical. If the cells sag lower than 3.0 VPC, the figures are obviously lower.

Somewhere there is a comparison of Thunder Sky, Sky Energy, and China HiPower cells. The Sky Energy cells seem to have a distinctly flatter discharge curve, holding up their voltage better into the lower SOC values.

Ok, maybe there were just the two, or there was another comparison. It also seems unlikely that either cell will manage 3.0 VPC at 4C, but the Sky Energy batteries seem to do better:

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/phocadownload/tsvsse_comparison.pdf


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks for that. Just after I posted that question I did find the pdf comparison, but as you say it is quite old ... havn't found a recent comparison though.

I know Sky Energy cells have a better power/weight ratio and if they still have a flatter discharge curve and lower temperature, I will go with them.

I also understand (from talking with others) that they under-rate their cells i.e 180A/h typically put out 200A/h .... so that's got to be good.

I understand your frustration in choosing the right cell size, I am going through that exercise at the moment.

My thought was to run the motor initially at a lower voltage (say 288v) using higher capacity 60 or 90A/h cells, then when the price of LiIon came down (or polymer) in the next 5 years, add to the pack to get a higher voltage. I know I will get less rpm out of the motor(at the moment), but that's just gearing right? But I don't know how much my power/efficiency will drop because I now have incorrect winding wire size compared with applied voltage.... have you done any experiments at a lower voltage than rated.


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

bmentink said:


> Thanks for that. Just after I posted that question I did find the pdf comparison, but as you say it is quite old ... havn't found a recent comparison though.
> 
> I know Sky Energy cells have a better power/weight ratio and if they still have a flatter discharge curve and lower temperature, I will go with them.
> 
> ...


I presume you are familiar with Headway cells and particularly the 16Ahr 10C cylindrical cells? That's what I'm considering.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

karlos said:


> I presume you are familiar with Headway cells and particularly the 16Ahr 10C cylindrical cells? That's what I'm considering.


No, I havn't looked at the Headway cells, do they compare in price to Sky Energy? Good luck with stringing all those small cells together ... you have more patience than me .. ;-)

Just had a quick scan of those cells and came across this: http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/headway/

So I would not use them simply because they overheat at anything > 3C and they are useless at high current charge (i.e Regen) ..


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

bmentink said:


> No, I haven't looked at the Headway cells, do they compare in price to Sky Energy? Good luck with stringing all those small cells together ... you have more patience than me .. ;-)


They are about $25US per cell so around $1.56 Ahr compared to Sky Energy (now CALB) which are roughly $1.30. It seems there are cheaper and more readily available options for BMS with the prismatic cells which is a bonus. 
Are you going to sell your BMS's Coulomb?
I don't think stringing them together is too much of a problem and if you have limited space, maybe you can fit them better and they don't have to be upright! Also Lego type blocks can be supplied to make them fit together.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> My thought was to run the motor initially at a lower voltage (say 288v) using higher capacity 60 or 90A/h cells, then when the price of LiIon came down (or polymer) in the next 5 years, add to the pack to get a higher voltage.


Mmm. You'll likely run out of room, and combining cells of different ages and especially chemistries is likely problematic.



> I know I will get less rpm out of the motor(at the moment), but that's just gearing right?


With AC, your pack size doesn't set the maximum RPM, just the maximum RPM that you get constant torque at. You get field weakening above that, where you can get higher RPM with less torque (almost like using a higher gear). So you won't necessarily be shifting gear all the time to get to higher speeds.



> But I don't know how much my power/efficiency will drop because I now have incorrect winding wire size compared with applied voltage.... have you done any experiments at a lower voltage than rated.


The motor will definitely get hotter quicker if you run at higher current; higher current will be needed to compensate for lower voltage. I don't have a feel yet for how bad this will be. Hopefully we'll find out soon.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

karlos said:


> Are you going to sell your BMS's Coulomb?


We'll certainly consider it if there is a demand. It is open design, so people can also download the protel files, customise, and make their own if they want. We've made some concessions for larger format cells (40 Ah is rather uncommon), but that's what they are designed for.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> So I would not use them simply because they overheat at anything > 3C and they are useless at high current charge (i.e Regen) ..


3C is pretty strong regen, unless your pack is small (so you need much more than 3C for acceleration). If 3C is your heaviest discharge, then 3C regen is like putting your motor in reverse to stop.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Coulomb said:


> 3C is pretty strong regen, unless your pack is small (so you need much more than 3C for acceleration). If 3C is your heaviest discharge, then 3C regen is like putting your motor in reverse to stop.


No no, I quoted 3C regarding the temperature rise, these cells have problems with charging any greater than 0.5C ..


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding pack voltage, my dilemma is as follows:

I want to have a storage of 25Kw/hr ideally.

Option 1: If I chose 60A/h cells 120 of them will give me ~23Kw/hr and my rail voltage will be 384v nominal (peak 432v)

Option 2: If I use 90A/h cells, 90 cells will give me 25Kw/hr of storage but the nominal voltage will be 288v (324 peak).

Option 3: Using 100A/h CALB cells, have to reduce to 80 cells (25kw/hr), which means my rail is only 256V.

Using the wavesculpture controller, I can't get any more storage in option1 as the controller is only rated to 450v.

Option 2/3 is the best I can do on my budget, if I had unlimited budget I would get 120 100A/h cells for 38Kw/hr of storage and 380v nominal rail voltage .. ideal.

So I am thinking option B is my only storage option at present, anyone have some views on this?


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

karlos said:


> I would suggest going to a copper-rotor 160-frame motor, which will be a good match to the maximum voltage/current output from our controller. You should be able to achieve about 120kW peak from this combination. Continuous rating will depend on what cooling solution you have for the motor, with placement in the vehicle, forced air fans, etc all having a big impact. Continuous power rating is entirely dependent on thermal design.


I just got a quote from local SEW agents. The only 22kw motor they could come up with is a 180 frame at a whopping 165kgs and double the price of the ABB motor at 
$6791NZ ex gst. I have asked them if they at least have a 160 frame option.

EDIT: They don't have a 160 frame option, and they state the weight is due to the copper core.


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi Coulomb, 

Nice to see you are playing in our neck of the woods these days ... welcome  ...also nice to see that your conversion is still going strong, man that is some build thread!

Hemonster


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

I've been drooling over model 200 forever!


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

bmentink said:


> I just got a quote from local SEW agents. The only 22kw motor they could come up with is a 180 frame at a whopping 165kgs and double the price of the ABB motor at
> $6791NZ ex gst. I have asked them if they at least have a 160 frame option.
> 
> EDIT: They don't have a 160 frame option, and they state the weight is due to the copper core.


You have been busy! Thanks for the info, it will be interesting to see what results James comes back with from SEW. 
If you are interested, when you are ordering anything along these lines, I could be interested in shipping stuff together and there may be some discounts for ordering two.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

karlos said:


> You have been busy! Thanks for the info, it will be interesting to see what results James comes back with from SEW.
> If you are interested, when you are ordering anything along these lines, I could be interested in shipping stuff together and there may be some discounts for ordering two.


Sounds like a plan  At this stage though, the ABB motor falls within my budget, so unless the SEW option gets cheaper, and the spec is better, that is the way I will go.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

karlos said:


> If you are interested, when you are ordering anything along these lines, I could be interested in shipping stuff together and there may be some discounts for ordering two.


Hi Karlos,

Sorry, I have had to order quickly via the Christchurch branch to meet a shipping deadline from Italy. You should be able to order via your local ABB dealer, they seem quite accommodating, especially for a cash deal ;-)


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## karlos (Jun 30, 2008)

bmentink said:


> Hi Karlos,
> 
> Sorry, I have had to order quickly via the Christchurch branch to meet a shipping deadline from Italy. You should be able to order via your local ABB dealer, they seem quite accommodating, especially for a cash deal ;-)


No worries, I'm waiting to see what James gets back regarding the SEW 160 as for the conversion I want to do, I feel I need the 160 frame motor.


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## SeanECE (Feb 14, 2010)

HiHiHiHiHi


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

SeanECE said:


> If anyone has used a WaveSculptor 200, please contact me at [email protected]
> 
> 
> We are having some torque issues.
> ...


Hi Sean,

Can you elaborate on the torque issues, I am just about to order one of these ..

Thanks


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

SeanECE said:


> ... please contact me


Email sent.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

SeanECE said:


> If anyone has used a WaveSculptor 200, please contact me at [email protected]
> 
> 
> We are having some torque issues.
> ...


Please reply to my PM/email


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

bmentink said:


> Can you elaborate on the torque issues


I was hoping that SeanECE would respond to this, but since he hasn't for some weeks, I'll add a short note here.

In email to me, he noted disappointing top speed for a superbike using an IPM (Interior Permanent Magnet) motor. IPM motors are a bit different to the usual induction or BLDC motors that most users would be using, and most users would not be disappointed with a 108 MPH top speed. (Of course, for a superbike, it _is_ pretty bad.) SeanECE needed immediate answers, since they were hoping to break records at a race that weekend. Now that the race is over, they have time to diagnose the problem. There are a number of things that I believe they are going to try.

So this is a rather special case, which is not relevant to the vast majority of users.


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## bmentink (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks for the update. I hope SeanECE will update us further ..

In the meantime, I am looking at the open source project Tumanako here: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/tumanako/index.php?title=Main_Page

Gives me a cheaper controller (pullet proof power stage with the Semikron unit) and gives me full control over the Motor control software, including the contactor code .. the only issue is that they don't have the space-vector stuff finished just yet, although you can run the motor in normal sine mode for testing.


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## SeanECE (Feb 14, 2010)

HiHiHiHiHi


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Sean,

James always has got back to my questions really promptly. So far just about everything I asked was answered, even with all extra technical details. Best E.V. company & component I bought t.b.h.

Reason I made this reply is that initally I thought there was something wrong with my settings in the Inverter, but after some careful testing of various parameter settings, I suspect it is the motor not outputting what I had expected .....


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