# Ducati Monster e-conversion



## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

My sincere greetings to the forum members and greatest respect to those who manage to bring e-conversions to life!

No books and forums can replace the actual experience of people who have hands-on experience in making conversions. Thus, albeit my theoretical study indicates that Ducati Monster e-conversion is possible, please have a look at the desired specs - do you consider this doable in practice?

Specs:
1) max hp within the range of 43-53 hp
2) max torque within the range of 33-48 kW
3) weight of conversion components (motor+battery+controller+cooling unit+charger) below 60 kg (132 lbs)
4) max milage of 50 miles of aggressive city riding (full throttle - full stop cycles)
5) single drive (no gearbox)
6)max price of components below 4k USD
7) max speed of 100 mph
8) solid torque from the very beginning (1/4 mile in below 12 secs)

Beforehand I had experience with projects that looked good on paper but were not doable in practice. If you have any ideas/experience - please-please-please share it here. 

Moreover, if you have in mind (or for sale) a ready set of components that have been tested together - please share it here!

Many thanks in advance guys!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

For 4K you are not going to make it.

Especialy not at a weight of 60kg.

Motor i would go for something like an ME1302 http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-1302-water-cooled-brushless.html 

With matching tuned controler, this package could do your power output at a weight of 30 kg and cost close to 2000-2500 dollars. So you would have no money for a battery to match.


Take a look at http://elmoto.net/ alot of detailed builds there.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

Dear Tomdb,

many thanks for your prompt reply.

you've proven my worst suspicions - motors I've been checking were much cheaper. I've studied both elmoto and electromotorcycleforum - those guys've been experimenting in different directions, cannot combine it into one project...

From your experience - do you think I could get the desired specs by increasing max price up to 6k usd? Will have to postpone project until all the original (gasoline) bike parts are sold - still better later than never. 

I could also sacrifice 10-20% of max speed. But acceleration shd be comparable to 400-600cc bike, has to be single gear and minimum mileage cannot be reduced. 

Do you think it's doable?


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Are you located in the US?

Because you would have to get it certified to be used on the road. 
Also your location might affect availability of parts.


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Heres Jozzers Ducati SS conversion done 6 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCRKRFdo4Os

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEBX9_kDftU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QRBmHOPl70

Don't do a DC motor though, waste of time


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

Luckily I will not have those certification issues in the first year or more - we have no specific regulation regarding e-vehicles.

As for the parts and suppliers, I've checked out several options - Asia, Europe and US. I am a complete newbie to the e-conversions. I want to stick to US suppliers like thunderstruck-ev. They seem to have more experience - hence less worries about matching components, as well as more trust in the quality of components.

Delivery is not a problem - friends can help.

My approach is very straight forward: I want to convert a 400-600cc bike and get specs similar to a gas bike. I could sacrifice max milage and max speed for the sake of eliminating gearbox.

Topic of e-conversions appeared to be much more sophisticated than I expected - more study discovers more pitfalls. Do not want to end up with lots of time and money invested - just to discover that the desired specs were not achievable. 

That is why I am asking experienced builders whether my aim is practicable.

Again, many thanks for your input! Much appreciated.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

So you are in the states?

150 Wh/mile is a good basis to use for battery sizing.

This means atleast 150wh*50miles/1000(wH to KwH) = 7.5 KwH of battery.
Using nissan leaf modules (cheap and avlaible) to get this energy would take 15-16 modules resulting in 110-120 volts 66ah and 60kg. 
However this would cost roughly 2500 dollars (assuming 150 dollars/module).

Which model of monster you got? 

I would set the finished bike weight target at around 200kg (less then the biggest monster with fluids)


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

no, I'm pretty far from US - I move a lot, but bike will be most likely docked in Thailand.

I have two donors available - 2nd gen M400 and M600 produced in early 2000-s. In my opinion these are the best city bikes - their seat height is way lower than of Monsters of later years. Makes them versatile.

My friend has a hobby of making toys like 996 with 1098 engine. This involves lots of planning and engineering, but the outcome is fantastic - with original chassis bike handles great both in the street and on track. Key is proper reinforcement of frame and sticking to the original weight distribution. That's why in my target specs max weight of all components shd not exceed 60kg - so that my friend could do a job he's familiar with.

So your advice is ME1302 with leaf modules? this makes 2.500$ + 2.500$. Plus maybe another 1.000$ for smaller parts and tools. Total of 6.000$ and bike will fit into desired specs?

Thanks!

Btw. Recently visited Netherlands for track days and sightseeing later on. Was very much impressed - indeed one of the most admirable countries Ive visited lately)


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

That'd actually be a pretty decent setup if I were doing it again today.

The Motenergy water cooled motor (save your original radiator and mounting brackets), Sevcon controller, Leaf batteries and a decent lithium charger (I like DeltaQ because they're sealed and they're programmable).

Go as high a voltage as the controller takes, you'll be glad you did.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

You realize that the electrical components are one story.

In a ducati the engine is stressed so this means you need to replace the engine with a mounting frame for the batteries and electronics.

Something like the bike attached?

Wonder if anyone got one of these working, they look easier to program than the sevcons. http://www.goldenmotor.com/HPC%20Series%20Controller%20User%20Guide.pdf


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

"converted" the bike model i grabbed off grabcad. Switched out the frame with an more accurate one. Biggest issue right now is, leafcells are too wide to fit horizontally, this means they need to be grouped vertical then stacked.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Here some vertical ideas
And one with better usage of the tank, total of 17 modules there and room for an "stiffening" and mounting frame.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

an example of the stiffing frame/motor mount. These will have to be very substantial, so alot of material and milling. Thus the "brackets" and other parts wont be cheap.


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## Grinhill (Dec 9, 2014)

Looking good for meeting the OP's requirements with the exception of the weight. So the total weight of conversion components would be around 85 to 90 kg? This would also have a bit of a negative impact on acceleration.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

No clue on what the actual torque curve is for the motor, so I could not calculate it. 

However, I doubt that removing all the ICE components and replacing them with roughly 100 kg of electric will yield a weight difference of more then 20-30 kg. 

So just go on a diet.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

wow! thanks for the renderings!

still the key issue - fitting into the desired specs is not clear... as for now, all the proposed designs have not been actually manufactured and tested, so no idea what the final specs wd be... will try to do more maths this weekend.

for ex http://www.goldenmotor.com/eMotorcycle/Dall-Antonia-Luigi.jpg is saying that Italian bike runs 150kmph with a range of 90km. But actual website of the maker http://dallantonia.com/dallantonia.html is showing less ambitious numbers:
Max.	105 KM / ha 150 km / h depends on the ratio
Shooting 0-100	from 4 to 10 seconds it depends on the ratio


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Yes this one uses a goldmotor motor, which is shit. 

Plus absolutely no specs on the battery.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

Hello again to all the Forum Members,

it took me much longer than expected to understand the maths and physics behind engineering a bike). Still in process, and there's a question i cannot understand - maybe you could help?

I want my bike to have a comfortable cruise speed of 160 kmph. Calculation shows that I would need 45 hp / 33 kW to maintain that speed. 
At the same time most of the motors I see in the market have 10 kW constant / 30 kW peak power.
Does that mean that my bike would be able to move @ 160 kmph only for 5-10 minutes of motor's peak power? And cruising speed would be around 90-100 kmph (thats the speed with 10kW)?

Is my maths wrong?

Thanks in advance!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

I got roughly cruise of 25KW.

with 250kg total bike
0.7m^2 frontal area
Drag coeff of 0.6, might be alil low for the duc monster

So I would redo your calcs.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

my calc was very straightforward:

required hp = K * F * V^3,

where 

K characterises aerodynamics == 0,065
F is the frontal area of bike + rider sitting straight == 0,576
V^3 is desired cruising speed power 3
sum is divided by 3500 in order to bring to kmph

then we multiply result by the efficiency of drivetrain of 0,9

The precise result is 51,42 hp or 38,08 kW.

Also - my Monster 400cc does go 160 kmph with no fairings and me sitting straight. Its specs are 43 hp 31.3 kW (Ducati is rumoured to indicate power on back wheel, not crankshaft). So I was thinking I was on the safe side with calcs.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

WDI said:


> my calc was very straightforward:
> 
> required hp = K * F * V^3,
> 
> ...


There is some fudging of units here i guess.

CD=0.6 uni- less
Fa= 0.6 m^2
V= 160/3.6 m/s

P[KW]=0.6* 0.6[M^2]*(160/3.6 [m/s])^3=31604watts

So rough areodynamic loss of 32Kw.

However this is still a fudging of the true equation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)

P[KW}=0.5*p[air density]*V^3*Fa*Cd

p=1.293 kg/m^3 at 1 bar

P=0.5*1.293*(160/3.6)^3*0.6*0.6= 20.5 KW

Then adding the other losses you get my first response.

Why you want a cruising speed of 160 km/h? You will not be able to cruise this speed for more then 8KwH/25KW= 20min max


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

high cruising speed is required fro two reasons:

1) i often travel 80km out of town. Its a highway so going below 120kmph increases your chances to be overrun (hit) by a fast going car. Besides 160kmph is the max comfortable speed I can go on a naked bike.

2) i often go 140-160 kmph in city traffic. On the other hand length of in-city highways where i go at such speeds is less than 10km. At a speed of 160 it is under 4 minutes. Could be done with motor's top power?


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## ken will (Dec 19, 2009)

WDI said:


> i often go 140-160 kmph in city traffic.


I remember being Young and Stupid.
It was a lot of fun!!


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Depends on the chosen motor and cooling capability. Also the cooling of the inverter will play a role. 

One thing not to forget that from a 8KwH pack you would draw roughly 4-5C to do 25-30 KwH, you would have to watch your battery temps depending on the cells which are used.

25Kw*(4/60)=1.7KwH so roughly 25% of your pack for that distance, without taking the acceleration into account.

80Km at 120km/h this will be hard to do on a 8KwH pack. 

If you would say drive a constant 120km/h over 80km this means 40 minutes of use.

If you deplete the battery totally 8KwH in 40min; 8*(60/40)=12KW of power average. So not likely.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

Yeah) in my case 10 years on bike - and still young and stupid)))

on the other hand smth is changing. For city trips I tend to prefer monster over superbike. And frankly speaking the key reason is top speed. Monster's lack of fairings and weaker motor limits comfortable top speed - getting to high speed takes more time and distance, as well as it's just not comparable to maintain it.


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

I been doing alot of research on a similar power goal in a yzf250 frame. Id say the motor below is perfect giving you a potential of 44kw with the 80v 550amp controller. That being said I dont understand how there isnt more people using 18650 cells for their conversion. I just ordered some Samsung 3.7v 2500mah with 20a continuous discharge and 35a peak at 50 grams. So for 80v 50ah pack 440 cells or 22kg (+pack hardware5-10kg max) capable of 400 amp cont and 700 amp peak. Now I guess bms/charging is the issue but that's why I am on here. http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/motenergy-1302-water-cooled-brushless.html


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

Biggest issue is the work that goes into welding them together and getting the current sharing/cooling in order.

How many cells? What cell exactly and where ordered?

And it is only half the pack just for bare cells. Compared to leaf cells with are a sturdy package and just need busbars.


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Well I only ordered 26 for testing and build a small 48v 5ah ebike battery with it, I know small but capable of 40A cont and 70A peak. Samsung INR18650-25R 3.7v 2500mah 35A and as far as supplier Ill keep my info for now since I havent tested em yet. To get them mounted Id say spot welding is the answer and it's quite easy building one with a car batteries(or 2) or a salvaged microwave.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Johnny
Please keep us posted about your Samsung cells I would definitely be interested in some if they work out


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

The one I have received turned out really good, they all got me around 2450mah with a 4.1v to 2.0v 2amp discharge, not the most precise tester but all 10 so far test about the same within 3-4mah. I decided to convert a pocket bike to experiment and already fixed a dewalt battery with 6 of em, cant complain so far.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

The 18650 cells are awesome and improving fast. As mentioned before in this thread its the high number of parallel connections that make them less common in the home conversion world. An OEM pack from a nissan leaf or chevy volt has undergone tons of safety tests and is the product of years of engineering work by lots of smart people. Trying to compete with that at home with a spot welder and 10x the connections is a daunting task for many.

Thats still not a reason to not use them. If you are up for the task of spot welding or soldering them all you can make a really nice pack. Their small size really opens up possibilities for odd shaped packs. They have high discharge rates and good energy density. 

They are super popular for electric bike packs and I think they will be 90% or more of the market in the next few years.

If you want to try using them in a large format like a car or motorcycle build, check out this clever solution from an endless-sphere.com member.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=71951

There are also lots of vendors that will make custom packs at very good prices using these cells. There are also people selling affordable spotwelder kits you can build to assemble packs without the risk of soldering heat damaging the cells. Endless-sphere.com is a great resource for info on 18650s.

Good luck with your pack building experiments Johnny5.

P.S. I love the Johnny5 avatar. When I was a kid I watched Short Circuit so many times I wore out the VHS tape. Bet I have seen that movie a few hundred times.


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Any progress on the Ducati project? I was a huge fan of Steve Guttenberg but I only ever watch translated version back in the days, I should really see the original version again cause they sure loose a lot in translation sometime.


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

Actually not much. 

Due to the recent drop in crude oil prices my home currency (Russian ruble) dropped twofold. This means that everything I wanted to buy abroad now costs two times more.

I am now checking local enthusiasts to source an engine and controller (those would be manufactured locally, hence priced in rubles). So far there are some nice e-bike developments, but nothing reliable for an e-motorcylce.

Frankly I am also loosing passion about this project. Along with drop of local currency my disposable income also decreased (you still buy lots of stuff from abroad). Not sure I am ready for a hobby that requires significant investments with questionable outcome%(


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## WDI (Aug 19, 2015)

on the other hand - maybe I could start producing e-motocycle components and sell them abroad

with this currency situation prices would be significantly below European and US manufacturers)))


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Sorry to hear, I wish our dollar was stronger to here but I was unaware it was affecting you guys that much. Im looking fwd to the day we can evolve pass all this bigotry and "risk" game we are "playing" worldwide.


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## Johnny5 (Aug 11, 2015)

Btw what do you think you could sell, I might be interested in the future as Id like to convert my yzf 250 frame to electric.


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