# Winston Battery First Charge Instructions



## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

When I received my 90 90Ah Winston batteries from Balqon, they contained a strange note. It stated:

(quote) Warning Before first discharge the battery, please charge it to 4.0V with the constant current of 0.1CA-0.5CA, then charge with constant voltage and stop until the charging current falls to 1% of the original. (end quote)

Is this really needed? I think I could pull this off if I'm really careful with my current charger before I send it in for reprogramming. Everything I have read here sounds like a balanced pack charged to a max of 3.65v/cell is the best way to go.

Getting near that 4.0v threshold has me a bit worried. Is that being suggested to fully charge the batteries?


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Zappo said:


> When I received my 90 90Ah Winston batteries from Balqon, they contained a strange note. It stated:
> 
> (quote) Warning Before first discharge the battery, please charge it to 4.0V with the constant current of 0.1CA-0.5CA, then charge with constant voltage and stop until the charging current falls to 1% of the original. (end quote)
> 
> ...


No, it's definitely not necessary. There is next to nothing above your 3.65volts. If you hit 4.2 volts, you have problems and when the battery is at this point of the charge curve, it changes very quickly. I charge my bottom balanced CALBs to 3.5vpc.


----------



## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks DIY. That is pretty much what I thought. I like to follow enclosed instructions (when I actually read them, LOL) but this one was just too scary.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

I've received the same first charging info (charge to 4.0V or even 4.1-4.2V in some cases) when I bought my batteries from native dealer. He has even worked for Thundersky and has visited and chatted with engineers there in their factory countless times. I trust him when it comes to these batteries.

There was some kind of analogy between lithium battery and a sponge. You need to wet the sponge and squeeze it dry few times before it works as it should. Same goes if sponge is left unused for a long time. I did this when I reconditioned my TS cells that went down to 0.01V resting voltage, though I carefully lifted resting voltage to 3V before charging to 4.0V. Those are happily back alive and still have lower internal resistance than newer Winston cells. Capacity seems to be a bit lower at 90Ah (should be over 90Ah) but my dealer/engineer said this should change if I would cycle these cells more (down to 2.5V and back up to 4.0V). Yet to do this. I've been charging to 3.65V per cell and have been happy with that.

Yes, voltage rises really fast at the end. Batteries shouldn't get warm unless you are charging at higher rates. There might be problems inside the cell if they warm up. This was the case with batteries with 0.00V resting voltage. They acted like big resistors and didn't hold charge at all.

He told me this applies to TS and Winston cells.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

mora said:


> I've received the same first charging info (charge to 4.0V or even 4.1-4.2V in some cases) when I bought my batteries from native dealer. He has even worked for Thundersky and has visited and chatted with engineers there in their factory countless times. I trust him when it comes to these batteries.
> 
> There was some kind of analogy between lithium battery and a sponge. You need to wet the sponge and squeeze it dry few times before it works as it should. Same goes if sponge is left unused for a long time. I did this when I reconditioned my TS cells that went down to 0.01V resting voltage, though I carefully lifted resting voltage to 3V before charging to 4.0V. Those are happily back alive and still have lower internal resistance than newer Winston cells. Capacity seems to be a bit lower at 90Ah (should be over 90Ah) but my dealer/engineer said this should change if I would cycle these cells more (down to 2.5V and back up to 4.0V). Yet to do this. I've been charging to 3.65V per cell and have been happy with that.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the sponge analogy is all baloney. TS has continued to drop their recommended charge voltage over the years. It's a chemical device, not a sponge.
If you had cells go to 0.1 volts and recovered them, they definitely have lost capacity. I have verified this through testing.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, I'm aware of charge voltage recommendations. First datasheets told it is fine to charge to 4.2V, next time I remember checking the same datasheets it was 4.0V. Maybe it is less than 4.0V now? They didn't mention if cells should be charged to their maximum rated voltage on every charge.

I still stand behind the theory that it is good for TS/Winston cells to get charged up to 4.0-4.2V occasionally. Really carefully of course. Charging them to 4.0V every time isn't recommended. This battery guy has over 8 years of experience with TS cells and confirmed capacity going back up during long term testing. I think he is still experimenting with really old cells and has based his battery replacement guarantee on his tests.

It doesn't hurt to charge these cells to 4.0V even if it was done only once. But if Winston tells not to exceed 3.8V then don't go over it and be happy with your good cells.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

mora said:


> Yes, I'm aware of charge voltage recommendations. First datasheets told it is fine to charge to 4.2V, next time I remember checking the same datasheets it was 4.0V. Maybe it is less than 4.0V now? They didn't mention if cells should be charged to their maximum rated voltage on every charge.
> 
> I still stand behind the theory that it is good for TS/Winston cells to get charged up to 4.0-4.2V occasionally. Really carefully of course. Charging them to 4.0V every time isn't recommended. This battery guy has over 8 years of experience with TS cells and confirmed capacity going back up during long term testing. I think he is still experimenting with really old cells and has based his battery replacement guarantee on his tests.
> 
> It doesn't hurt to charge these cells to 4.0V even if it was done only once. But if Winston tells not to exceed 3.8V then don't go over it and be happy with your good cells.


It doesn't hurt them to go to 4.0 volts, but it does not help/change them either.
LiFePo has no memory effect. So go ahead. Problem is, how are you going to do it with no risk? One at a time? That's the real issue. So why bother?
I suspect the recommendation is all about getting them balanced and traditionally, this is at the top.
I think the recommendation for charge went to 3.8 after that IIRC.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, it will be difficult to do if there are lots of cells in series as minimal cell differences show up rapidly at those voltages. I suppose one at the time is the only option. If cells are laying on the box and are waiting for initial charge then why not. But again, should one bother? Hehehe. I didn't even think of that top balancing opportunity, it was too obvious.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Zappo said:


> When I received my 90 90Ah Winston batteries from Balqon, they contained a strange note. It stated:
> 
> (quote) Warning Before first discharge the battery, please charge it to 4.0V with the constant current of 0.1CA-0.5CA, then charge with constant voltage and stop until the charging current falls to 1% of the original. (end quote)
> 
> Is this really needed?



this pretty much defines what a good top-balance procedure would be. hook the WHOLE pack up in parallel to a power supply set to 3.8-4.0 and let it cook till amps drop to zero. You then have a completely top balanced pack which is pretty much assured of hitting your 'finish voltage' at pretty much the same time without any BMS involved once you have them hooked up in series.

a pack that is well balanced initially seems to stay in balance a LONG time barring any unbalanced loads across partial pack. Hence, some people choose to avoid the risk of cell-level monitors that carry the risk of parasitic loads that can cause more cases of imbalance than they may solve.

the higher up the knee you go in the initial balance, the closer the balance is likely to be in regular cycles. regular cycle finish voltage has to be a least a little up the knee so the charger sees the voltage rise from the flat. fairly standard value to shoot for (for winston/sinopoly/CALB) would be 3.65 vpc .


----------



## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> this pretty much defines what a good top-balance procedure would be. hook the WHOLE pack up in parallel to a power supply set to 3.8-4.0 and let it cook till amps drop to zero. You then have a completely top balanced pack which is pretty much assured of hitting your 'finish voltage' at pretty much the same time without any BMS involved once you have them hooked up in series.
> 
> a pack that is well balanced initially seems to stay in balance a LONG time barring any unbalanced loads across partial pack. Hence, some people choose to avoid the risk of cell-level monitors that carry the risk of parasitic loads that can cause more cases of imbalance than they may solve.
> 
> the higher up the knee you go in the initial balance, the closer the balance is likely to be in regular cycles. regular cycle finish voltage has to be a least a little up the knee so the charger sees the voltage rise from the flat. fairly standard value to shoot for (for winston/sinopoly/CALB) would be 3.65 vpc .


Thank you Dan. That's exactly what that note is saying. I don't know why I didn't see that. For some reason, I kept thinking of it as 4.0vpc in a series pack. I've read about first putting them in parallel but that completely slipped my mind as I read that note.

Oh well, while I'm waiting for my Zilla hairball to be modified for HEPA input, I guess I could take all the jumpers back off and put them back on in parallel. The pack is at about 3.4vpc right now so it shouldn't take a lot of current to get them up to 4.0 in parallel. Hmmm, If I shorted them at that point, I would have about a gazillion amps at 4 volts. Not a pretty thought.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

cells usually come about 50% charged... in the flat part of curve. you can't tell WHERE they are by voltage. Hence you pretty much have to wire the batch in parallel and bring it up to top (or down to bottom). Since chargers all work to the top, I am a believer in top balance and skipping BMS as an error prone complication. 

the best way to do this is with a power supply you can set to *whatever* like 3.8-4.0 and watch the amps. Lots of people are unwilling to invest the $150 in a power supply to do it right, and go for the BMS to handle it in regular cycles. Problem is that if cells are too far out to start with, many BMS cannot handle it if the high cell(s) hit the top when charger is still in high amp mode.


----------



## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

dtbaker said:


> cells usually come about 50% charged... in the flat part of curve. you can't tell WHERE they are by voltage. Hence you pretty much have to wire the batch in parallel and bring it up to top (or down to bottom). Since chargers all work to the top, I am a believer in top balance and skipping BMS as an error prone complication.
> 
> the best way to do this is with a power supply you can set to *whatever* like 3.8-4.0 and watch the amps. Lots of people are unwilling to invest the $150 in a power supply to do it right, and go for the BMS to handle it in regular cycles. Problem is that if cells are too far out to start with, many BMS cannot handle it if the high cell(s) hit the top when charger is still in high amp mode.


So DT...where does one find a power supply as you mention here...I just got my new Winstons in from Balqon this afternoon. They all came in at 3.4 (36 of them). 

When I was working with Balqon on the order, they actually charge them to 4.0 on their trucks and forks...at 4.0 my pack would be 144 which would be great! I got an ElCon 4Kw PFC charger setup so I could bump the settings from 36-45 cells with a V5 of 3.65. This means I could effectively stay safe and set it to 142.4 if I set it to 39 cells for my top side. Does that make sense? It does when I am looking at the paper.

would something like this work?? http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Single-Output-Power-Supply-HY3003D/dp/B004ISQ270/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1362611603&sr=8-2&keywords=adjustable+power+supply+with+amp+readout


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

wessss77 said:


> So DT...where does one find a power supply as you mention here...I just got my new Winstons in from Balqon this afternoon. They all came in at 3.4 (36 of them).


yup, thats a pretty typical resting voltage *somewhere* in the flat part of the curve.




wessss77 said:


> When I was working with Balqon on the order, they actually charge them to 4.0 on their trucks and forks.


I doubt that. Not a great idea to set that end voltage over 3.65 per cell.... it is all surface charge over that, and settles down to about 3.4 within moments of first use. If the pack average is up to 4.0, you run the risk of any cell over that getting fried if balance isn't perfect and perfectly monitored/shunted by a BMS. If you are more conservative and shoot for a final voltage 3.5-3.6 its a lot more forgiving and less likely to fry a cell even without a BMS if the initial top balance is good.




wessss77 said:


> a V5 of 3.65. This means I could effectively stay safe and set it to 142.4 if I set it to 39 cells for my top side.


 if you have a LOT of faith in your top balance. I would recommend one click lower.



wessss77 said:


> would something like this work?? http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Singl...ords=adjustable+power+supply+with+amp+readout


this is a 3amp max..... would be slower than molasses... for $50 more you could get a 10amp max Mastech, but that is still very slow. I used a 10amp Mastech, wired the entired pack in parallel, set to 3.8 for initial top balance, and it took literally WEEKS.

I am now in process of buying a 40amp fixed voltage power supply (cheaper), and using a cellog6 to manage the charge, dong the initial balance cell by cell rather than all in parallel. It tool about an HOUR just to wire in parallel, and another to remove. I'm thinking it'll be way better to do the balancing in situ cell by cell with this 'fast charger'. I have another thread going on this in the battery forum and will post results once I try it out.


----------



## wessss77 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thanks for the info...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You don't need to charge to 4V and in fact it's better for the life of the cells if you never do so. More time spent at higher voltage speeds up electrolyte solvent breakdown. There is also no need to wire up all the cells in parallel first to balance them. You can charge them in series and closely monitor them as they come up, then add or remove charge from individual cells as needed. With TS/Winston I wouldn't bother to go above 3.8V, with CALB I'd stay under 3.6V.


----------



## conaman551 (Nov 12, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> You don't need to charge to 4V and in fact it's better for the life of the cells if you never do so. More time spent at higher voltage speeds up electrolyte solvent breakdown. There is also no need to wire up all the cells in parallel first to balance them. You can charge them in series and closely monitor them as they come up, then add or remove charge from individual cells as needed. With TS/Winston I wouldn't bother to go above 3.8V, with CALB I'd stay under 3.6V.


I'm with this man, when I get my TS cells i'm just gonna put em on to charge in series and keep a close watch over them, charger is programmed to 3.75v. All things being equal, I should be fine


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

If you can, I would recommend you use a charger programmed a bit lower than 3.75vpc. If you are running without a BMS or shunting regs then I don't recommend a average voltage per cell over 3.60 volts, even for Thunder Sky or Winston cells. I'm running Thunder Sky cells without a BMS using 3.50 vpc (133 volts for 38 cells.)

On your first charge you will almost certainly find some scatter. You will need to remove or manually shunt (resistors with alligator clips) some cells near the end of charge. Things happen real fast once the cells start climbing over 3.45 volts. It would be very helpful if the charger was already backing down on current before more than a handful of cells climb past that point. That can be done by either lowering the voltage or turning down the current.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm with EVfun. Don't charge to 3.75vpc! I'm running without a BMS and have found that charging to 3.455vpc is about right for my top balanced pack. My Zivan charger doesn't shut off based on a minimum current level (which is what would be best, 0.05C) but merely times out. I started out with about 3.6vpc and have been lowering it over time trying to find the point where the cells aren't over charged after they have been sitting for several hours. I'll likely be bumping it back to 3.450V when I get a chance to do some more testing this summer.


----------



## Zappo (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm with Gizmo and EVfun. I have put about 7000 miles on my Winston pack since August. I followed David's recommendation and have been charging to 3.50 vpc. It has been working great. I just had to let it sit for a few days so I thought I would check the balance. The vast majority of the 90 cells were between 3.346 and 3.348 volts. I have a couple of cells at 3.344 and one cell at 3.350. That's close enough for the girls I hang out with.


----------



## Ken-Revolt (Jul 8, 2012)

JRP3 said:


> then add or remove charge from individual cells as needed.


JRP3,
For us noobs, please recommend a *cheap*, easy method to "remove charge from individual cells". Thanks Ken


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Ken-Revolt said:


> JRP3,
> For us noobs, please recommend a *cheap*, easy method to "remove charge from individual cells". Thanks Ken


get a couple 50watt resistors, solder onto alligator clips, and hook'em on a cell for about 30 seconds at a time to do fine tweaking....


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I've also used various light bulbs.


----------



## GizmoEV (Nov 28, 2009)

Ken-Revolt said:


> JRP3,
> For us noobs, please recommend a *cheap*, easy method to "remove charge from individual cells". Thanks Ken


Get a power resistor in the 10-100W range that has a resistance of 3.5ohms down to 0.12ohms. Use the formula V=I*R and P=V*I for calculating things. V=Voltage, I=current in amps, R=resistance in ohms, and P=power in Watts.

If you are careful you could also dissect an old heater with the coiled wire for the heating element and then use alligator clips on wires to clip it to the battery and just adjust the distance between the alligator clips to change the current. Be careful as it can get hot fast.


----------



## evpower (Aug 9, 2013)

Zappo said:


> *Winston Battery First Charge Instructions*


 Some links with the summary of the charging details:

Charge FAQ
http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/tagged/ChargeFAQ

Overview of support for the LiFePO4 cell charging
http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/96451098316/overview-of-support-information-for-the-lifepo4

http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/46595246130/question-i-want-to-make-the-initial-charge-of-all


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why are you spreading misinformation that cells must be charged to 4V? They are all fully charged at least twice at the factory, including the initial forming charge to 4V. There is no reason to do so again, and is in fact probably detrimental to the cell.


----------

