# Oranges to Apples : Compare ICE and Electric Power



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I had that very same talon tsi... very fun once it wound up enough for turbo to kick in, but pretty heavy car, and terrible defroster for windshield. I lived in Chicago at the time, and remember terrible fogging in the mornings 

Personally, I would suggest you consider higher revving Warp9 and use sophisticated controller like Soliton (with fluid cooling) to limit voltage the motor sees to 160v... you COULD go higher on the battery side to prevent sag under load, but I doubt you'll have room for a whole lot more depending on range you need.

Warp9 at 1000amps would 'feel' like over 200hp..... and more torque at low revs means better off the line than the stock TSI.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> From physics, constantly accelerating 1450 kg from 0-96.6 in 7 sec is 75-ish kW (3.8m/ss). This is, of course, neglecting driveline and aerodynamic losses. Say 25% - so 94 kW.
> 
> So if 94 kW is needed for this acceleration, why is the ICE 150? Seems like a bit of overkill. What am I missing here?


Look at your IC power curve - 
Power at one rpm is not important
Power across the rpm's you use is the key

Visualize this as the area under your curve - your IC engine achieves 150Kw at 6000rpm
How much at 3000rpm?

So from 3000rpm - 6000rpm the average power available is probably close to your 94Kw


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

dtbaker:


> terrible defroster for windshield


Hah hah.... I've read about that. This will be my first winter, so I'll get to find out first hand! Keeping the revs between 3000 and 5000 with the turbo fully spooled provides incredibly snappy performance!



> Warp9 at 1000amps would 'feel' like over 200hp


I don't want to go that high on amps if I can. So thus my choice of the 11" HV. Also, a Kostov 9"-220 will only put out about 65 kW at 400A. Not sure about the Warp9 at 160V (my chart is only 72).


Duncan:


> Power across the rpm's you use is the key


Yes, and as per above, I find the best range is 3000 to 5000. Coincidentally, if you look at the dyno chart attached, this is also within the peak torque range. BTW, this is not my dyno - I was able to find data on a stock turbo AWD and used it for reference. You'll note their torque and HP is a little lower than published numbers.

So although the calculations say 90-ish kW, I'm probably going to need to bump up the amps so I can match 75 to 110 kW in that RPM range.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> I don't want to go that high on amps if I can. So thus my choice of the 11" HV. Also, a Kostov 9"-220 will only put out about 65 kW at 400A. Not sure about the Warp9 at 160V (my chart is only 72).


well.... the 11" will provide all the torque you could dream of, but you have to consider the much lower rpm limit of that motor compared to the 9" with regard to your gearing.

Also consider that 'bursts' of amps (lasting 10 seconds or less) are fine, so a 1000amp controller is how you can squeeze 150kW out of a 9" motor for a little while. Thing is that you cannot MAINTAIN that because of thermal limitations. Sustained high output the motors cannot dump waste heat to air fast enough, even though they are far more efficient than ICE... You also have to keep in mind that high amp draws are not that great for batteries either and can create thermal management issues as well.

the 'general' rule of thumb is that the DC motors can put out about 4x their rated thermal output limit for short bursts without damage. The prismatic batteries are supposed to be able to maintain 3C loads, and burst to 5C or maybe a little higher, but would need a little time between bursts to dissipate heat from internal resistance. So the voltage/capacity of the battery pack is a balance depending on what kind of driving you expect to do.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

The K11-HV has a max of 5600 RPM. I think it will be OK with my gearing if I stick to 3rd-5th (3rd gear is 120kph at 5300 RPM). I don't think I will ever use 1st or 2nd.

I've calculated about 20 kW to maintain freeway speeds - well within either the 9" or 11" steady-state operating range.

RW Audio has done extensive testing on the A123 pouch cells - and they can burst (like 18C!) way more than the prismatics. Which is why I'm leaning towards the pouch for my build. Originally, the prismatics were top of the list since they are so much easier to work with. But I can't ignore the performance of the pouch cells - even though they are more difficult to mount.

I also would like some "scalability" - which I think will be easier with the 11". I think a 9" might be at its limits in this application. And I fear once I get a taste of the electric torque, I'm going to want more. Then, pending finances, I have some room to squeeze more performance out of it. With only a 50km commute, I have that luxury. Or, I leave it as planned and increase range. Decisions, decisions....... thanks for your input Dan!!! Now I have more decisions!!!! 

Below is an updated dyno chart with the K11 at 500A. Looks to be close to the ICE. *So am I right in saying the K11 @500A and approximately 220V would give me VERY close performance to the ICE?*


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

K11 @ 500 amps is about 134 hp. FWIW I run my K11 192 AT about 200v/200 amps @ 60 mph {55 ish hp} The Kostov never breaks a sweat or even gets hot to the touch because it is below it's 60 minute ratings. But, they like the higher voltages. I started at 120VDC and the car was doggy. 215v is much better especially at the 3500 rpm I tend to run.

I was thinking about using a 9, but there wasn't much $ difference back then and the 11 had better curves for my application.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Welcome!!

Based on some Soliton1 logs I peak at around 130kw right now, which after losses is likely around 130hp... It feels like more than 130hp but that's only because of the torque, if you used a Soliton1 and set motor current to 1000A but kept battery current at 600-700A you would go a bit easier on an A123 pack but still have tons of torque off the line. With only ~150v I run out of RPM fairly early, but that's not a bad thing, I don't tend to speed!! I get from 0-80km'h very quickly and just cruise. 

Having driven an awd tsi turbo (years ago) I would say 94kw is not going to feel like your turbo in any way. The turbo will build in the upper RPM range, a DC motor will be falling off hard by the time you get to the RPM where the turbo was starting to pull. You'll love the torque off the line and instant throttle response and no turbo lag, but they don't have the same kind of top end.

The most comparable feeling I've had from an ICE is a diesel Golf/Jetta. Of course it's not the same, those damn things make a racket! However the abundant torque and limited RPM range give you the basic feeling.

Or come drive my 944, it'd be easy to change settings so you could experience what different motor currents feel like. I don't draw 1000A very often, but it's nice to have the option.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

piotrsko said:


> FWIW I run my K11 192 AT about 200v/200 amps @ 60 mph {55 ish hp}


Thanks for the input piotrsko. Do you have your conversion documented somewhere? I'm interested in what you are running. That power draw seems high compared to my preliminary estimates. *Perhaps I'm way off on my own estimates of only 20 kW?*





rwaudio said:


> set motor current to 1000A but kept battery current at 600-700A you would go a bit easier on an A123 pack but still have tons of torque off the line.
> 
> Having driven an awd tsi turbo (years ago) I would say 94kw is not going to feel like your turbo in any way. The turbo will build in the upper RPM range, a DC motor will be falling off hard by the time you get to the RPM where the turbo was starting to pull.
> 
> Or come drive my 944, it'd be easy to change settings so you could experience what different motor currents feel like. I don't draw 1000A very often, but it's nice to have the option.



rwaudio, you suggestions of the settings are a good way to maximize the motor power and protect the batteries. This should work especially well with a higher voltage pack.

I'm hoping to keep the power band below 4000 RPM. The stock ICE is nothing until the turbo spools up around 3000. It pulls till about 4500 and then I can feel it dropping off. I'm sure its a little tired with 146K on it as well. *Do you think the 11" Kostov will drop off much at 4000, even at 220 or 250V?* Based on my interpretation of the Kostov motor chart, the power band is fairly linear. I guess voltage sag will see the RPM drop a bit, and thus the power. But will it be that much?

Thanks for the test drive offer - might have to take you up on it if I can make it to Calgary before the snow flies!


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Once again, FWIW: the "Pull" drops off at 3000 in the ranger because of BEMF. It is incredible below that, but the motor starts warming the armature, which makes me want to worry. If I want to blow off the idiot in the rice rocket, I change my Sol1 settings and shift at 3000 then go park/idle for 1/2 hour. Based on my experiences, if I abused the K11 as much as the others here do a Warp by over-voltage and current the truck would scream. Motor life would suffer and that is not where I am at. The K11 is a very stout motor, but it isn't a race motor.

I had a build, but took it down since I now prefer to lurk mostly silently in the background.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> Thanks for the input piotrsko. Do you have your conversion documented somewhere? I'm interested in what you are running. That power draw seems high compared to my preliminary estimates. *Perhaps I'm way off on my own estimates of only 20 kW?*
> 
> 
> rwaudio, you suggestions of the settings are a good way to maximize the motor power and protect the batteries. This should work especially well with a higher voltage pack.
> ...


I would speculate that your numbers are at least in the ballpark for cruising, in my Soliton1 logs I always create some new columns to do calculations. IE battery current from motor current * PWM, kW from battery current * battery voltage, and Ah from Battery current * small number that accounts for the time frame of the snap shot in the logger files, then I sum that column to figure out the total Ah used. 

My kW usage is pretty low most of the time unless I'm accelerating quickly, I also average the battery voltage, battery current, throttle position, and kW to get an idea energy use compared to other drives. By averaging the throttle position I get an idea of how aggressive or gentle I was driving. Average kW and total Ah always scale with that trend. The drive is exactly the same every time so I have comparable data. I've ranged from 258wh/mile to 395wh/mile depending on driving style. With more careful driving I could likely see 225wh/mile for my commute which includes 60-80km/h roads. On average my car fits the "rule of thumb" 1wh/mile for every 10 lbs. During normal driving, (not aggressive, not hypermiling) I'm around 275wh/mile. I last weighted the car at 2662lbs, but it's gained a bit of weight since then and is likely 2700 - 2725lbs.

As for the Kostov, I can't speculate how it will perform. I'm trying to guess how my 11HV will perform once I up the voltage further. On 100v power fell off around 1500rpm, with decent power to 2200rpm, and a low load peak rpm of 3000. On 150v power falls off around 2500rpm with decent power to 3000-3200rpm with low load peak rpm of around 4000.

If I had decent power to 5000rpm I'd be ecstatic. Currently it will break the tires loose in 2nd gear while driving at low speed (not just from a stop) if I press the throttle too hard.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hi guys, thanks for the input.

I did some further study of the Kostov motor chart.

@400A, the speed drops to about 4600RPM. Thats at about 79kW
@500A, its 4200RPM, 92kW
I extrapolated to 640A, 3600RPM, 110kW
Bumping up to 1000A, I'd guess 2800RPM, maybe 150kW


Your real world experiences at least resemble these numbers. So I'm likely to be opposite my ICE. Right now there is nothing special until 3000RPM. With the K11, EVERYTHING will be below 3600RPM. So going back to my original power comparison, with correct gear selections, I should be able to achieve similar performance as the ICE - up to about 3600RPM. Damn physics and BEMF!!! Perhaps I need to study up on field weakening to stretch the RPM band somewhat. Or dual 9s.....hhmmmmm.....

Dual 9"-220V
560A, 5700RPM, 104kW Nice!
640A, 5300RPM, 112kW Even better!
800A, 4800RPM, 136kW Wow!
But this comes at a 9kg weight penalty and $1000 cost penalty (Ouch!)

Suddenly the K13 is looking attractive.
Anyone have its weight or a performance curve???


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Old.DSMer said:


> Suddenly the K13 is looking attractive.


Wrong! Power come from battery... a bigger motor will not help. In fact, it will probably turn slower.
Push more voltage in K11 and you will be able to obtain over 150 Kw at over 3500 rpm.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Yabert said:


> Wrong! Power come from battery... a bigger motor will not help.


Yes....and no.

Yes, power does come from the battery. But it doesn't provide the motive force. That transformation is in the controller/motor/drivetrain.

Assuming the pack is large enough to deliver the instantaneous power required, the limitation is the motor. I tend to consider manufacturer's parameters fairly important. As piortrsko said, he runs into heat issues with his K11-192V when running over-voltage and high amps. The K11HV spec sheet is 248V, which I'm using for my comparisons. What are the implications of running it above 248V? Maybe we can push it to 275. Anyone have experience with the K11s at higher voltages?

To be honest, I think the K13 will be too heavy anyway. The dual 9s look very appealing. All the output and within all manufacturers specs.

Roger White's 86 Fiero used dual AC motors in a similar config. Nice:
http://www.evalbum.com/1396


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm curious what you're going to do about the tranny. As a former DSMer myself I can attest to just how fragile the AWD tranny can be. In particular the center differential. I'd be worried about it with the instantaneous low end torque the motors you're talking about have. I had a lightly built car and I still ate a couple transmissions. What finally solved it was throwing a few grand at it by sending it to TRE to get built and install a 4 spider center differential.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

jeremyjs said:


> I'm curious what you're going to do about the tranny. As a former DSMer myself I can attest to just how fragile the AWD tranny can be.


Very good question and I have not yet crossed that bridge. I know the Soliton1 has a programmable current ramp. So I (hope) it can be adjusted similar to the ICE torque ramp. I plan on keeping things pretty tame to start. The car is completely stock right now and I'm happy enough with its performance. Replicated in an EV should be fine. Slower in an EV and I'll be disappointed. So I'm putting in the old college effort now and picking components that will meet my goals and have a bit of room for future upgrading.

I agree hitting the drivetrain with all that torque instantly will have devastating effects.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

To go back to your original goal - better or same than ICE - you don't need the complications of a A123 pack or the weight and expense of a 11 inch motor.

Just as an aside you should look at John Metric's DC Plasma build thread he runs Warp 9 stock at 200v and 2000 amps.

Since you only need around 150kw this is no problem - yeah? As you say you'll only use this power for a short time legally, unless you are tracking.

Warp 9 inch 
Soliton 1
60 Calb Grey 100 ah (new prismatic cells, with burst 10-12C, with voltage sag to 2.7v) See this video for more info http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcuyfS7yybQ

Good for at least 150 KW battery output - which is more than enough to beat your ICE numbers for 0-60. 

The 60 to 120 would be interesting to see which wins.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

drgrieve said:


> Just as an aside you should look at John Metric's DC Plasma build thread he runs Warp 9 stock at 200v and 2000 amps.
> 
> The 60 to 120 would be interesting to see which wins.


drgrieve, thanks for the reminder - it has been a while since I read that thread. In my re-read, I found he runs into the RPM/BEMF limit around 3000 RPM.

From the vid, the 180Ah CALB peak current was 1000A/180Ah @ 2.99V - 5.6C. For comparison, Sinopoly cells are rated max at 5C. So this seems in line. Crazy method for testing though!!!! And he was pulling over 5C for much longer than the recommended 10s 

I am far from a motor designer, but I wonder if the Kostov 9" 220V is wound differently so that the BEMF balance results at a higher RPM? Some googling has shown there is a factor (specific to motor construction I assume) that can be used to calculate the Vbemf RPM limit. Has anyone here done that or know the factor for the K9-220?

Eo = ZnF/60

Eo = BEMF
Z = mysterious "factor"
n = RPM
F = flux per pole (also an unknown factor to me)


Since my transmission will most likely be retained, I can still keep the motor in the power range under 3000. But that means more torque (and probably 1 taller gear) which makes me question the transmission integrity. If I could get an electric motor to generate decent torque up to 5000 RPM, it would be perfect. (I should clarify -- a DC motor. I cannot afford a 100kW AC system).

My guess is the ICE would win the 60-120. The Talon gear ratios are extremely tight and the overall final ratio in 5th is 3.28. 60mph is close to 3000 RPM in 5th. So the electric would probably have nothing left to give. Unless the Kostov has some internal magic that pushes the knee out past 3000 RPM.

I won't be anywhere near John's power levels. So I think dual 9s at 220V limited to about 560A should get me to 5700 RPM, with more (Soliton controlled) low end torque than the ICE. A single 9 might be able to deliver the peak power required, but only up to 3000 RPM and heavily overloaded. Dual 9s will be less strained and give me that upper RPM range. Too bad the 11" can't do that - the level of complexity has just jumped a notch or three.

In the end, I'm not really using the strength of DC motors. I will gain in higher RPM efficiency though. The transmission is making me force the DC to mimic the ICE. Perhaps I need to rethink the tranny.....


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Old.DSMer said:


> I am far from a motor designer, but I wonder if the Kostov 9" 220V is wound differently so that the BEMF balance results at a higher RPM? Some googling has shown there is a factor (specific to motor construction I assume) that can be used to calculate the Vbemf RPM limit. Has anyone here done that or know the factor for the K9-220?
> 
> Eo = ZnF/60
> 
> ...


Hi Old,

I have covered the basic DC motor equations a few times. Here is a post I knew how to easily find. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=156047&postcount=11 The motor flux is the big unknown. You can either take a motor and test to determine the flux characteristic or you need complete knowledge of the motor geometry and materials to calculate it using a magnetic FEA program. This is why motor performance characteristic curves are provided. Kostov is pretty good about posting those speed torque curves.

Regards,

major


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

major said:


> I have covered the basic DC motor equations a few times....... Kostov is pretty good about posting those speed torque curves.


Thanks for the link major. And my apologies for the newbie mistake of missing the SEARCH button!!!

So basically, if I stay within the charted specs of the K9, I should be OK with my upper RPM range. The K11 hits its limit of 4200RPM at about 500A. So by jamming 1000A into it, the speed will easily dip to 3000 or lower --- thats extrapolating way outside the posted curve, but does seem in the ball park when comparing to rwaudio's experience.

With dual K9s, I can push 560-800A (280-400 each motor) and keep my rev limit up in the 5700-4800 limit. This, of course, assumes constant motor amps through the rev range. I would expect the amps to drop off as the RPMs climb. But that should still provide some nice acceleration torque between 170-270 N-m. And peak power between 104-136kW. Which should be very close to my estimated requirements.

It seems the common practice is to pump amps into the motor to generate gobs of torque. In my case, I'm trying to keep the amp loads lower to cover a larger RPM range --- at the cost of an additional motor. And really, its a very small portion of the entire conversion cost, so worth the added trouble in my opinion.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Below is a revised dyno with dual K9"-220V. Hopefully the Soliton1 can be adjusted to somewhat match the torque ramp up to approximately 3000 RPM. After that, the 800A (400 per) motor limit should cut in and flatten out the torque curve.

I believe this should closely match (or slightly exceed) factory specs.

Next step will be the pack....


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

power limit on the Sol series is just like hitting a hard stop rev limiter. It is useful for preventing damage to things so it tends to be annoying in use.

Come to think of it: most of the limits are like that. the only one that is somewhat smooth is battery max current. That one plateaus and stays there as long as throttle command exceeds the battery current limit setting.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

That would not be fun. I'll have to stick with the battery current limit which is (hopefully) approached more slowly. That should also work to flatten out the torque curve and keep things within the driveline capabilities. Otherwise, I'll have to try reprogram my lead foot.....which might prove to be difficult


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Old.DSMer said:


> That would not be fun. I'll have to stick with the battery current limit which is (hopefully) approached more slowly. That should also work to flatten out the torque curve and keep things within the driveline capabilities. Otherwise, I'll have to try reprogram my lead foot.....which might prove to be difficult


i thought the solitons also had a rampup function? something that you set as the # of ms to full power.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

jeremyjs said:


> i thought the solitons also had a rampup function? something that you set as the # of ms to full power.


It does have adjustable ramp, which I will use to try match the ICE torque slope. Then the current limit will flatten out the top end. This is just my starting point. So I can increase it depending on what I find for real world performance.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Old.DSMer said:


> From the vid, the 180Ah CALB peak current was 1000A/180Ah @ 2.99V - 5.6C. For comparison, Sinopoly cells are rated max at 5C. So this seems in line. Crazy method for testing though!!!! And he was pulling over 5C for much longer than the recommended 10s


I saw in the vid a peak current of around 1900 amps - momentarily. 

Yeah it's OMG watching it ... lol.

Jack Rickard (EVTV) has just posted a new video (and blog) testing the grey 40ah cells. He pushed them at 480 amps that's 12C for 30 seconds. 

Just in case you haven't picked up the point - these are a new cell which I imagine will replace the old blue Calb cells which were good around 5C to 8C.

These new ones at least 10C to 12C. Maybe more.

So for those that like power, this is big step in making a decently powerful car in a easy to put together package.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Definitely agree drgrieve. If this new line of cells is capable of 10C without killing the cells - its a huge step forward.

I'm definitely going to investigate this route for my pack. They are so much easier to work with than the pouch cells. Not as compact, but easier to work with!


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Just thought I would post a quick update as I progress through this EV jungle.

I had the great opportunity to visit RWAudio recently and check out his build first hand. Top notch work, by the way! Definitely a conversion worth aspiring to!

The 11" motor and Sol-1 are a great match. And the low end power (even with his limited pack) was astounding 

Below is an updated dyno of what I expect with a K11 and Sol-1. Probably 60Ah cells limited through the Sol to 400 or 500 battery amps. That configuration will give me better-than-stock performance up to about 3000 RPM. But by then, the electric drive will have left the ICE in the dust. Most of my commute is spent between 2500 and 3500 RPM anyway, and I'm keeping the Tranny and clutch (at least for now). I'll also be adjusting the current ramp in the Sol-1 so I don't shred anything in the drivetrain. As I become more familiar with the system, I'll be able to dial it up if necessary. Ok....WHEN necessary


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## e*clipse (Aug 2, 2009)

Hello fellow DSM'r! 

I obviously should have been paying closer attention to this board! I have essentially the same base vehicle ( 1G AWD DSM ) with the same goals. 

So, how are things coming along with your motor decision? Personally, I'm going the AC route - 1 on each axle to start.

Also, I was wondering how you arrived at your flat power number? I see you posted the drag coefficient - do you have the frontal area? How about tire and drivetrain drag? 

It seems to me the "rule of thumb" power estimate leaves a lot to be desired, because it makes no differentiation between an aerodynamic vehicle and a pickup truck. 

I've found a lot of good info at this site:
http://www.mayfco.com/analyses.htm

They're shooting for a landspeed record, and they have a lot of good aerodynamic info, including specifics for DSM's! 
http://www.mayfco.com/dragcoef.htm

I'm also interested in your batteries - I was planning on using the same ones (A123 20Ah). In fact, I have a test group of 14 right now. Do you have a good source for them?

Good luck w/ your conversion! 
-e*clipse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

Hi e*clipse, nice to see another DSMer 

I purchased the Kostov 11" 250V motor and a Soliton1 controller.

I found the frontal area and drag online. I found an estimate for rolling resistance. But I do not know drivetrain. I plan on measuring the power consumed at various RPMs with the wheels off the ground. This should give me a very close estimate of drivetrain losses. They will increase with increase load and torque - but it should at least give me something close.

Thanks for the links, I will definitely check them out.

I've discussed many ideas with RW Audio - who has done alot with the A123s. Given the wide variations in quality and difficulty mounting, I have decided to further investigate the new prismatics.

Blog: Here
Build thread: Here

Do you have a build thread? I'm very interested to see your dual AC setup. What are you doing for a controller???


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## squall333 (Feb 18, 2013)

I plan on doing a conversion soon with a similar car (around the same weight) 3000GT. But drag coefficient is .33

Im interested to see how the K11 and soliton works out for you performance wise


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## e*clipse (Aug 2, 2009)

Hi OldDSMr!

No I don't have a build thread yet. 

I am going with the A123's because they have an impressive power-to-weight ratio. 

The only thing that's come close are the CALB "grey cells":
www.[B]youtube[/B].com/watch?v=lyYfFeWwd9I
or
www.[B]youtube[/B].com/watch?v=xcuyfS7yybQ

The glowing bar of steel made an impression on me. 

- E*clipse


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

squall333 said:


> I plan on doing a conversion soon with a similar car (around the same weight) 3000GT. But drag coefficient is .33
> 
> Im interested to see how the K11 and soliton works out for you performance wise


Love the 3000GT. And the Stealth for that matter. The AWD versions are rare around my area. Are you doing the AWD?

If so - check out my build thread - you will end up with motor interference with the front transfer case with anything greater than about a 7.5" motor. I believe they use a very similar bell housing and transfer case setup. In fact, I read somewhere that guys have swapped in the 2g eclipse/talon transfer cases (supposedly they are slightly stronger).

And you will need something larger than an 8" in a 3000GT.

I hope to have a proposed solution to this problem soon.

I have no question about the capability of the Soliton 1 and the K11-250. It will be limited only by the capabilities of my pack - which has not yet been finalized.


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

e*clipse said:


> Hi OldDSMr!
> No I don't have a build thread yet.
> 
> I am going with the A123's because they have an impressive power-to-weight ratio.
> ...


The A123s are indeed very impressive. There has been some good development on pack building with tapes and/or tyvec to prevent cross-cell shorting. A123 cell quality has been questioned several times in various forums.

But if you get a good set and a well assembled pack, nothing can beat them IMHO.

RWAudio is using both the A123s and CALB Greys....I'm very curious to see his final performance.


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## squall333 (Feb 18, 2013)

I will not being doing awd, i will go with the k11 or the azure dynamics siemens motor/controller combo.

Havent decided yet. I will probably have to decide soon


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

squall333 said:


> I will not being doing awd, i will go with the k11 or the azure dynamics siemens motor/controller combo.
> 
> Havent decided yet. I will probably have to decide soon


The K11 should have more oomph, but the AZD has regen capability. I went with the latter due to overall system cost (and fire sale pricing).


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## squall333 (Feb 18, 2013)

njloof said:


> The K11 should have more oomph, but the AZD has regen capability. I went with the latter due to overall system cost (and fire sale pricing).


Do you have a build thread anywhere?


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

squall333 said:


> Do you have a build thread anywhere?


Yes, but badly out of date:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70895

In particular, I haven't updated since switching from DC to AC. Perhaps shame will get me to post my progress to date


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## squall333 (Feb 18, 2013)

I thought the AZD setup could get close to 300HP must have read that wrong


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

squall333 said:


> I thought the AZD setup could get close to 300HP must have read that wrong


Maybe with the DMOC645/AC55, I haven't checked; definitely not with the DMOC445/AC24.

Edit: sorry, that should be AC90 above. I checked the spec and it has a 130HP peak.


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## squall333 (Feb 18, 2013)

njloof said:


> Maybe with the DMOC645/AC55, I haven't checked; definitely not with the DMOC445/AC24.
> 
> Edit: sorry, that should be AC90 above. I checked the spec and it has a 130HP peak.


I was referring to the Siemens 1PV5135 4WS14 and DMOC645


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## njloof (Nov 21, 2011)

squall333 said:


> I was referring to the Siemens 1PV5135 4WS14 and DMOC645


Don't know the motor, but that controller's max output is 414A @ 400V, which is 220 hp before you factor in motor inefficiencies...


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## Old.DSMer (May 18, 2012)

I previously made the decision to go with the K11-250 and Soliton 1 - which closely approximated the ICE.

I finally have some real world data to report. This was logged using the Android app Torque and a bluetooth OBDII adapter. Its by no means "scientific" proof, but the Torque app is widely accepted in tuner circles as being fairly accurate.

I put together an updated dyno curve comparing my current settings to the original ICE. Electrical parameters set in Soliton1:
1. Motor : 250V, 550A
2. Slew : 1000 A/s
3. Batteries : 86s1p CALB CA100 (Greys)

3rd gear pull sampled every 700ms. Final car weight is 3518 lb. Road wasn't perfectly level which is why I think the torque increases towards redline. I think it should be flat around 160 ft-lb.

With the above settings, I'm very close to stock numbers. As predicted, power from 0-3000 rpm exceeds factory. 1st gear launches are incredible with the AWD - no tire spin yet. 2nd gear take-offs are still quick in normal traffic (enough to accelerate and pass anyone else).

When I finally get some thermisters on the motor, I'll take it up to about 650-700A. That should get me around 200 ft-lb and will probably exceed the factory ICE.

I have not yet had the opportunity to check the 0-60 time. Given the weight and power, I'm probably around 7 or 8 seconds. Increasing the motor current should get me down to 6 or less (below factory spec).

I'm glad to see some correlation between my estimates and reality


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Great info DSMer. So I ran the data you provided there through an accelaration spreadsheet I've been building and assuming you use 1st, 2nd and 3rd with 0.40 sec shifts you'll be at 8.03 sec 0-60 times with the current power. If you get a chance to test it, I'd love to see how it compares to my spreadsheet.



Old.DSMer said:


> I previously made the decision to go with the K11-250 and Soliton 1 - which closely approximated the ICE.
> 
> I finally have some real world data to report. This was logged using the Android app Torque and a bluetooth OBDII adapter. Its by no means "scientific" proof, but the Torque app is widely accepted in tuner circles as being fairly accurate.
> 
> ...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Here is a 10hp frame motor, 10 inch ac 3 phase motor run on
a Curtis Controller.

The pic of the meters.

the top meter is foot lbs 225 ft lbs
the bottom meter is amps from batts 254 amps

Ivan


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

super cool setup you got there. how are you measuring torque, as I take it that you built that dyno yourself?



Ivansgarage said:


> Here is a 10hp frame motor, 10 inch ac 3 phase motor run on
> a Curtis Controller.
> 
> The pic of the meters.
> ...


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

browncamaroz28 said:


> super cool setup you got there. how are you measuring torque, as I take it that you built that dyno yourself?


There is a one foot arm hanging down in the box with a scale, load cell.
I had checked the torque with a torque wrench, at all different settings.

Here is the link to my dyno
http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=71.0


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## browncamaroz28 (May 14, 2014)

Love the simplicity of it. Just read the entire thread you posted and if I didn't have too many projects as it is I would be building one for myself!


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