# Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

I've driven a few clutchless cars, Saturn and a Mitsubishi. I prefer the
clutchless but you do have to wait a second or two for the gears to line up,
and you risk over rev-ing the motor if you forget to take your foot off the
gas pedal... (if you don't have a limiting controller with tach sensor).

I'm looking into motor hub adapters that allow for some flex and can bolt to
the shafts without all the clutchplate/hub/ expense... might as well see if
something in the industrial world can save all of us some money and time.
Was looking at Rexnord and Lovejoy adapters but haven't found anything that
will work yet.

Until I find that solution....

The clutch plate (springs) also absorb some of the torque backlash that is
driven backwards through the powertrain when your tire hits a bump, pothole,
etc.. This torque backlash can hurt your motor and transmission, etc....

If you ditch the use of your clutch, make sure you have another way to
dampen / absorb these torque backlashes.... one alternative is to get rid of
the flywheel and spring plate, but keep the clutch plate for a few reasons:
1) It already has the spline interface to the transmission shaft. you can
remove the material on the outer edge to lighten the part further, but the
plate if relatively light to start with.
2) If you drive it from the outer edge, via a light aluminum plate, the
springs on the clutchplate will absorb these torque backlashes, vibrations,
etc.... I think EV America's sells adapters for this, I'm still waiting for
them to answer my questions.
3) If the motor shaft and trans input shaft are not 100% dead on center,
(due to a homemade adaptor plate or one that's just slightly off center due
to old tooling) the clutchplate will act as a flexplate to absorb some of
the off angle drive... otherwise you'll be vibrating the car until things
fall apart.

Also, the bell housing and the adapter plate are probably needed because
both the trans and the motor have shafts sticking out of them, so there
needs to be something to hold them apart and centered. unless you have a
motor that accepts the trans splines...

These comments are intended for users with DC motors, AC motors have more
direct drives but still require a flexplate to help with misalignment.

John

On Dec 24, 2007 6:58 PM, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS < [email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > chuck you are driving down the road your contactors fail or are welded on
> > , for a cheap easy safety switch all you have to do is put in the clutch
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Howdy Folks

Let's re-visit an old friend here on the EVDL, the clutch vs. clutchless issue.

I haven't been on this list as long as some of us have, but I have been in the EV industry (and on the EVDL) for more than eight years now.

For the first couple of years in the biz, I lived in (and worked on EVs in, and drove EVs regularly in) a mountainous coastal area (just south of Mendocino, CA).

These are a couple of the EVs I drove regularly while there-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/G1page.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/G2page.html

I used to always say I wouldn't build an EV without a clutch. But now?... it depends.

I believe that if you are operating a manual trans EV in a hilly/mountainous area then the clutch is a safety issue and needs to be there.

Quoting Steve Lough from the SEVA list about six months ago-

> Steve Lough here... Well it is a good start. I would like a higher 
> voltage, ...say at least 120. And a Clutch !
>
> Here is the problem of no clutch.
>
> With a little practice, you can make UP shifts, and even some Down Shifts, 
> but....
>
> You are going down the street... say
> Down Town Seattle, you make a right turn up James Street. STEEP !
> All of a sudden you NEED your first gear, but with out a clutch, you 
> have to let the motor spool down to close to 0 (zero) rpm, to make the 
> Shift, with out grinding gears... and now you are NOT MOVING.. People 
> "honk"ing behind you..
>
> But with a clutch, you round the corner, depress the clutch, shift into 
> First Gear and away you GO !!
>
> My two cents...

In other words... accident_waiting_to_happen. 

And... damned annoying. 

Even potentially dangerous on a mountain road (or steep city street).

So... if you live in the mountains (or Seattle, or San Francisco) a clutch is always good. (momentum is something best not lost)

But... if you live in the middle of the plains, and the EV will never see a hill, then I would be fine with a clutchless vehicle.

That said... 
the clutch is an invaluable emegency disconnect if the controller fails on and the contactors weld. 

If you can depress the clutch and stop the EV safely (no "death due to EV") you can feel better about having to let the motor grenade (Can you say "scattershield"? How about "ballistic blanket"?) :'0

So anymore, when someone asks me about clutch vs clutchless, I say: "it depends" :^D

Oh... additionally... this subject always makes me want to mention the "toy" or "toaster" mentality concerning powered vehicles in general.

Some of us view vehicles as "necessary evils" or some sort of appliance "like a toaster" and have no enthusiasm for them.

OTOH... some of us view many, if not all, forms of vehicular transport as an opportunity for fun ("toy") or a pleasurable experience to operate. (Any NEDRA racers here?)

Some may view this as- "Toaster" = no clutch. "Toy" = clutch. (assuming a multi-speed manual transmission in the vehicle in question)

And... there are uncountable shades of grey between these two views.


Happy Holidaze
Roy

A Christmas Card-
http://www.theinnerchristmasmovie.com/ (~5 minutes)




~~~~~~


Roy LeMeur

_________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Those are some really helpful answers. Thanks, everyone. Let me flip 
the question around, just to get it on the table. Bob at EVA has some 
pretty extraordinary claims about the benefits of going clutchless. He 
says:

"One racing customer stated that for every 7 lbs in rotational weight is 
equivalent to 100 lbs of vehicle weight So by eliminating the flywheel 
and pressure plate (~30lbs); it could be the equivalent to removing 400 
lbs of vehicle weight. That makes the clutchless design about 10% more 
efficient in rolling resistance!"

Now, I fancy myself an engineer of some kind, and I know rotational mass 
has nothing to do with rolling resistance, so what's that about? The 
only effect mass can have is on acceleration, in which case I'd believe 
that a certain amount of rotating mass is equivalent to some other 
amount of dead weight, but I'm not sure I'm buying the 7:100 ratio. Has 
anyone really compared the difference in range? If I give up 10% range 
because of the flywheel, I'll drop it. Otherwise, I agree a clutch is a 
really nice thing to have. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

> Those are some really helpful answers. Thanks, everyone. Let me flip
> the question around, just to get it on the table. Bob at EVA has some
> pretty extraordinary claims about the benefits of going clutchless. He
> says:
>
> "One racing customer stated that for every 7 lbs in rotational weight is
> equivalent to 100 lbs of vehicle weight

This only applies when accelerating. Makes a big difference at the drag
races, and practically zero difference in daily driving.
So it's real world effect of efficiency is so small as to be
unmeasureable...unless your real world is spent at 1/4 mile at a time.


-- 
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Do you remember the flywheel vehicle that Ford made way back in time? I 
found that the large flywheel, pressure plate and clutch I have takes two 
men and gorilla to lift. It was over 2 inches thick and 14 inches in 
diameter. Had to weigh 150 lbs or over.

When I see that I have to come to a stop 4 blocks ahead of me, I would shift 
into neutral and coast all the way to the red light, wait 30 to 40 seconds 
and push in the clutch, shift to neutral and the motor may be still 
rotating, which can start to move the EV which reduces the starting ampere.

I could drive down a steep 2 mile hill which gave me another 3 mile run out 
and even could coast right into my garage with no added power using the 
flywheel motion for five miles.

Many times on roller coaster hills, I could make the next hill that is 
smaller than the one I went down with no additional power.

Now, driving down this hill without the flywheel, clutch is disengaged, I 
had to provided additional power for the last 2 miles of this run down the 
hill.

Never use REGEN on this hill except in the winter time, this will actually 
slow me way down to about a stop at the bottom of a hill.

I find I can get more range using flywheel motion in roller coasting hills.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Homic" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> Those are some really helpful answers. Thanks, everyone. Let me flip
> the question around, just to get it on the table. Bob at EVA has some
> pretty extraordinary claims about the benefits of going clutchless. He
> says:
>
> "One racing customer stated that for every 7 lbs in rotational weight is
> equivalent to 100 lbs of vehicle weight So by eliminating the flywheel
> and pressure plate (~30lbs); it could be the equivalent to removing 400
> lbs of vehicle weight. That makes the clutchless design about 10% more
> efficient in rolling resistance!"
>
> Now, I fancy myself an engineer of some kind, and I know rotational mass
> has nothing to do with rolling resistance, so what's that about? The
> only effect mass can have is on acceleration, in which case I'd believe
> that a certain amount of rotating mass is equivalent to some other
> amount of dead weight, but I'm not sure I'm buying the 7:100 ratio. Has
> anyone really compared the difference in range? If I give up 10% range
> because of the flywheel, I'll drop it. Otherwise, I agree a clutch is a
> really nice thing to have. 
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

I personally have been starting to view the clutchless versus clutch 
controversy to be a religious venue and as such I have tried to stay out it. 
I do tech support for a major EV parts supplier and I hear it all.

This week I had a guy that wanted to do his big rig as an electric. He 
wanted solar panels on the top and a wind generator on the front. For a 
while I tried my best to explain to him some basic laws of physics. I also 
tried to get him to understand where the energy came from that made the 
vehicle go down the road but he did not understand the concept. You 
eventually throw your hands up in the air, metaphorically, and you say: "You 
know what, you should go do it, go build that! You may be on to something!"

This is what I want to say to the clutchless crowd. Yes it works and it 
works for gas cars as well. Is it convenient?, of course not. I once drove a 
tireless car for several weeks. It worked quite well, although on the dirt 
roads I lived on the shreds of leftover tire and the steel rim grinding the 
gravel left an incredible smoke screen of dust. This slight inconvenience 
did not alter the fact that cars do not need tires! Some may argue that they 
are necessary for safety. Trains do not use tires. Trains have a lot less 
rolling resistance. Obviously the whole tire thing is a conspiracy to get us 
to buy rubber 

I have driven gasoline cars without clutches. Mostly when I was a gasoline 
mechanic and I had to drive my customers car to my shop without a clutch. It 
seems that there are many people who do not know how to drive a gas car 
without a clutch. It is all a matter of your own personal religion. You be 
the judge of your own reality.

Roderick Wilde 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Well I just realized that the whole thing is a false dilemma anyway, 
right? The clutch and flywheel are separable components. You could use 
any light weight disk instead of the flywheel (or an aftermarket 
"racing" flywheel), and you'd have a clutch, and low rotating mass.

I found a web site that reproduces a whole bunch of math I just did 
(should have searched first, duh):

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/how_a_lightweight_flywheel_works.htm

In the given case, removing 20lbs of flywheel was like removing 350 lbs 
of mass, but only in first gear. (Similar to Bob's numbers, but this 
time I can see the derivation, and it doesn't ignore the fact that you 
have to be in first gear for this to be true) So, yeah, without a 
flywheel, your car is 10% lighter for the 4 seconds that you're in first 
gear. In subsequent gears, the effect decreases significantly. Yeah, 
sounds like something that wouldn't matter much, but worth going for if 
the weight reduction can be done cheaply and/or easily.

In the end, I think I need to get all the parts on the bench, and just 
go with what looks harder to screw up. 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Try a chain-drive coupling, available at any bearing/power transmission 
shop.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mogelnicki" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> I've driven a few clutchless cars, Saturn and a Mitsubishi. I prefer the
> clutchless but you do have to wait a second or two for the gears to line 
> up,
> and you risk over rev-ing the motor if you forget to take your foot off 
> the
> gas pedal... (if you don't have a limiting controller with tach sensor).
>
> I'm looking into motor hub adapters that allow for some flex and can bolt 
> to
> the shafts without all the clutchplate/hub/ expense... might as well see 
> if
> something in the industrial world can save all of us some money and time.
> Was looking at Rexnord and Lovejoy adapters but haven't found anything 
> that
> will work yet.
>
> Until I find that solution....
>
> The clutch plate (springs) also absorb some of the torque backlash that is
> driven backwards through the powertrain when your tire hits a bump, 
> pothole,
> etc.. This torque backlash can hurt your motor and transmission, etc....
>
> If you ditch the use of your clutch, make sure you have another way to
> dampen / absorb these torque backlashes.... one alternative is to get rid 
> of
> the flywheel and spring plate, but keep the clutch plate for a few 
> reasons:
> 1) It already has the spline interface to the transmission shaft. you can
> remove the material on the outer edge to lighten the part further, but the
> plate if relatively light to start with.
> 2) If you drive it from the outer edge, via a light aluminum plate, the
> springs on the clutchplate will absorb these torque backlashes, 
> vibrations,
> etc.... I think EV America's sells adapters for this, I'm still waiting 
> for
> them to answer my questions.
> 3) If the motor shaft and trans input shaft are not 100% dead on center,
> (due to a homemade adaptor plate or one that's just slightly off center 
> due
> to old tooling) the clutchplate will act as a flexplate to absorb some of
> the off angle drive... otherwise you'll be vibrating the car until things
> fall apart.
>
> Also, the bell housing and the adapter plate are probably needed because
> both the trans and the motor have shafts sticking out of them, so there
> needs to be something to hold them apart and centered. unless you have a
> motor that accepts the trans splines...
>
> These comments are intended for users with DC motors, AC motors have more
> direct drives but still require a flexplate to help with misalignment.
>
> John
>
> On Dec 24, 2007 6:58 PM, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS < [email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> >> chuck you are driving down the road  your contactors fail or are welded
> >> on
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Hi EVerybody;

Clutch/clutchless? This is an old one that surfaces now an' again. Bob 
Batson's argument sounds interesting. Hoping somebody can debunk or prove 
it? I think it depends on WHAT particular tranny you're running. For 
Instance; VW? Forgetabout it! They are hard enough to shift and select gears 
in GOOD, stock, form. They are so sloppy and vague, what with all the 
crappy, wear points plastic bushings and Mickey Mouse afterthought linkages? 
Now a "top Loader" type Ford or Chevy, or EVen Nissan, with their crisp gear 
selections. another story. I'll bet Dave Oliveria's Ranger clicks easily 
through it's clutchless gears? Right Dave?

But for alota cars it's SO nice to click through the gears without having 
your silent motor to wind down or up to get another gear.Most all of us are 
used to standard trannys from our deformative years?Also the clutch cushions 
the drive train by slipping a bit, during torque moments, protecting the 
drive train from outragious torque.AND as a Safety thing IF yur controller 
locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT happen, but they say it does? Of 
course IF you don't shut it down by opening your line switch, you will be 
shipping yur motor out to Jerry at Warfield Electric, or to Jim, at Hy 
Torque 'lectric. He'll jack it up, the name plate, and slip a new motor 
under<g>!But that's better than running over a few slower pedestrians. Can't 
let Darwin's law apply, here.

On my last teardown on my Rabbit drive train, I had my machinist guy go 
at the flywheel, in a lathe, went from 14 lbs to 6, talk about weight loss! 
If WE could take it off like that, too?! There is fat in ICE flywheels as 
used stock, after all they are FLY wheels Duh! Supposed to smooth out 
archaic gas engines. All WE need them for is to be able to squeeze a clutch 
plate between, IF we could make the whole outfit out of Obtanium, from the 
crashed Roswel Flying Saucer metal at one half gram<g>?Be nice, or go to 
the racing flywhhels of aluminum.

I'm 'ole fashioned, like my clutch, and slip it ice-ly while manuvering 
,to spin up the Power Steering pump, for the nice assist while parking, or 
whatEVer.If you have a separate motor for all that stuff, it's another 
story.

Personal choice here, aftrer all, conversions aren't perfection! Get OUT 
there, get it on the road! Coke/Pepsi, Train /Plane, Studebaker/Huppmobile, 
Chevy/Ford. Victrola/ I-Pod<g>! Yur call!

Merri Christ Mess!

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Homic" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

You can always shift into neutral. You do not need to be in gear, thus you 
can rotate the motor with the wheels on the ground.

-Phil
http://evalbum.com/1413

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> clutched
> Can disconnect motor in emergency, "Full Power EVent", blowing up
> motor but saving a pedestrians life.
> Allows you to shift transmissions that are not as forgiving (or are
> worn) as others.
> smoother and faster shift, though not that much faster without
> special measures. There is no compression braking, the electric motor
> doesn't reduce in rpm very fast.
> Standard parts get used in the connection
>
> clutchless
> less parts, but custom.
> longer shift times, impossible on some transmissions.
> locked in. Can't diagnose noise problem for example by pressing in
> on clutch and coasting or lightly pressing throttle.
> Cant rotate motor by hand to inspect commutator without jacking up.
>
>
>
> If you have a really good, safety minded controller like the Zilla, the
> need for the emergency disconnect is reduced.
> If you have to shift a lot because the gearing falls right outside the
> power band or over rpm is a potential problem, then the clutch can make
> your life easier and reduce wear on tranny.
>
> If you have a tranny with poor syncros you need the clutch, if not you
> have a choice. I couldn't drive mine before conversion so I put in the
> clutch.
>
>
> All this is gathered from discussions, my EV is the worst of both
> worlds. I have a 5-1/4 triple plate Tilton clutch. metal on metal
> without any springs. It cannot be slipped at all and it is up to me to
> match rpms or the drive line rings like a bell. I have tried shifting
> without the clutch and it is hard on the tranny, and very in-consistent.
> Before I blew up the motor, I used to drive in 3rd all the time and only
> used second to make impressive launch. now I start in second and shift
> to third at every single light to keep the amps down.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Point well made.

I think the best way to consider this issue relies on figuring out if one 
needs more than a single gear. Most likely, anybody planning on use over 40 
mph is going to have to shift at least once to get there - and again when 
slowed.

I don't see anything wrong however with going clutchless on a vehicle that 
is essentially a NEV with few or very slight hills to tackle. Although 
useage more demanding than that would likely have one wishing for a clutch 
in short order. It's essentially a sacrifice of dynamic adaptability. 
I.e., a car without tires might do very well on rail road tracks, but not 
anywhere else.

Personally, I will probably do a clutchless install, but my car will likely 
never leave 2nd gear or see >40 mph or any kind of a grade greater than a 
minor overpass.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> I personally have been starting to view the clutchless versus clutch
> controversy to be a religious venue and as such I have tried to stay out 
> it.
> I do tech support for a major EV parts supplier and I hear it all.
>
> This week I had a guy that wanted to do his big rig as an electric. He
> wanted solar panels on the top and a wind generator on the front. For a
> while I tried my best to explain to him some basic laws of physics. I also
> tried to get him to understand where the energy came from that made the
> vehicle go down the road but he did not understand the concept. You
> eventually throw your hands up in the air, metaphorically, and you say: 
> "You
> know what, you should go do it, go build that! You may be on to 
> something!"
>
> This is what I want to say to the clutchless crowd. Yes it works and it
> works for gas cars as well. Is it convenient?, of course not. I once drove 
> a
> tireless car for several weeks. It worked quite well, although on the dirt
> roads I lived on the shreds of leftover tire and the steel rim grinding 
> the
> gravel left an incredible smoke screen of dust. This slight inconvenience
> did not alter the fact that cars do not need tires! Some may argue that 
> they
> are necessary for safety. Trains do not use tires. Trains have a lot less
> rolling resistance. Obviously the whole tire thing is a conspiracy to get 
> us
> to buy rubber 
>
> I have driven gasoline cars without clutches. Mostly when I was a gasoline
> mechanic and I had to drive my customers car to my shop without a clutch. 
> It
> seems that there are many people who do not know how to drive a gas car
> without a clutch. It is all a matter of your own personal religion. You be
> the judge of your own reality.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date: 
> 12/25/2007 12:18 PM
>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

But don't forget Darin's solution on the Forkenswift with clutch pedal 
activated power disconnect. It's a complete physical break of the 
connection by simply stepping on the clutch pedal.

I think that solves the safety issue of welded contacts etc. very well. The 
same setup could probably also be rigged to re-engage the connectors with a 
simple return spring. Coupled with a driver accessible breaker, you have 
your momentary panic switch and the ability to lock power out if necessary - 
and no risk of rpm fragging the motor. Even so, the idea of being locked 
into gear is still a bit of a fallacy if the shifter mechanism is retained, 
since one could just pop it out of gear - although that's not going to be 
the knee-jerk reaction for most people, vs. the clutch pedal which is.

- Kip

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> clutched
> Can disconnect motor in emergency, "Full Power EVent", blowing up
> motor but saving a pedestrians life.
> Allows you to shift transmissions that are not as forgiving (or are
> worn) as others.
> smoother and faster shift, though not that much faster without
> special measures. There is no compression braking, the electric motor
> doesn't reduce in rpm very fast.
> Standard parts get used in the connection
>
> clutchless
> less parts, but custom.
> longer shift times, impossible on some transmissions.
> locked in. Can't diagnose noise problem for example by pressing in
> on clutch and coasting or lightly pressing throttle.
> Cant rotate motor by hand to inspect commutator without jacking up.
>
>
>
> If you have a really good, safety minded controller like the Zilla, the
> need for the emergency disconnect is reduced.
> If you have to shift a lot because the gearing falls right outside the
> power band or over rpm is a potential problem, then the clutch can make
> your life easier and reduce wear on tranny.
>
> If you have a tranny with poor syncros you need the clutch, if not you
> have a choice. I couldn't drive mine before conversion so I put in the
> clutch.
>
>
> All this is gathered from discussions, my EV is the worst of both
> worlds. I have a 5-1/4 triple plate Tilton clutch. metal on metal
> without any springs. It cannot be slipped at all and it is up to me to
> match rpms or the drive line rings like a bell. I have tried shifting
> without the clutch and it is hard on the tranny, and very in-consistent.
> Before I blew up the motor, I used to drive in 3rd all the time and only
> used second to make impressive launch. now I start in second and shift
> to third at every single light to keep the amps down.
>
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Phil makes a good point about the transmission itself having a neutral. 
I have both a manual and an automatic ICE. I switch between both of them 
often. I would have no problems with putting it in neutral in either car 
in an emergency. However, my wife would have problems. She doesnt put 
the manual into neutral to coast, she holds the clutch in. Also she 
never uses any setting other than 'R' and 'D' in an automatic (I tend to 
move it around).

It depends on WHO is going to drive the car I think. Using the clutch 
pedal to cut the power in an emergency would not come to my mind, but it 
works for Darin I suppose. I think my first reaction to a car going 
faster than I want it to would be to put on the brakes! Thats what 
brakes do after all.. they slow you down. If the brakes werent working 
(and I still had time to think about it), I would go for the 
transmission next.

What about those who do conversions with automatic transmissions? There 
is no clutch to argue about there. What do they do for the 'extra' 
safety measure? What do/did OEMs do?

I like having a clutch for a manual just so the shifting is smooth and 
fast if I want to take off fast.

-Jon

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

It totally depends on usage and how well your transmission shifts w/o the clutch. My Toyota truck (clutchless) uses 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear and shifts well. I changed the oil to synthetic. Upshifts are seamless and downshifts take a bit longer if I don't try to match revs (which I typically don't). The biggest advantage that I saw was getting rid of some rotating weight, plus, saving some length which was critical in this vehicle. Other than that I see it as a personal choice which can also be influenced by a supplier if that's how they typically do it.



----- Original Message ----
From: Kip C. Anderson <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:15:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


Point well made.

I think the best way to consider this issue relies on figuring out if
one 
needs more than a single gear. Most likely, anybody planning on use
over 40 
mph is going to have to shift at least once to get there - and again
when 
slowed.

I don't see anything wrong however with going clutchless on a vehicle
that 
is essentially a NEV with few or very slight hills to tackle. Although

useage more demanding than that would likely have one wishing for a
clutch 
in short order. It's essentially a sacrifice of dynamic adaptability.

I.e., a car without tires might do very well on rail road tracks, but
not 
anywhere else.

Personally, I will probably do a clutchless install, but my car will
likely 
never leave 2nd gear or see >40 mph or any kind of a grade greater than
a 
minor overpass.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> I personally have been starting to view the clutchless versus clutch
> controversy to be a religious venue and as such I have tried to stay
out 
> it.
> I do tech support for a major EV parts supplier and I hear it all.
>
> This week I had a guy that wanted to do his big rig as an electric.
He
> wanted solar panels on the top and a wind generator on the front. For
a
> while I tried my best to explain to him some basic laws of physics. I
also
> tried to get him to understand where the energy came from that made
the
> vehicle go down the road but he did not understand the concept. You
> eventually throw your hands up in the air, metaphorically, and you
say: 
> "You
> know what, you should go do it, go build that! You may be on to 
> something!"
>
> This is what I want to say to the clutchless crowd. Yes it works and
it
> works for gas cars as well. Is it convenient?, of course not. I once
drove 
> a
> tireless car for several weeks. It worked quite well, although on the
dirt
> roads I lived on the shreds of leftover tire and the steel rim
grinding 
> the
> gravel left an incredible smoke screen of dust. This slight
inconvenience
> did not alter the fact that cars do not need tires! Some may argue
that 
> they
> are necessary for safety. Trains do not use tires. Trains have a lot
less
> rolling resistance. Obviously the whole tire thing is a conspiracy to
get 
> us
> to buy rubber 
>
> I have driven gasoline cars without clutches. Mostly when I was a
gasoline
> mechanic and I had to drive my customers car to my shop without a
clutch. 
> It
> seems that there are many people who do not know how to drive a gas
car
> without a clutch. It is all a matter of your own personal religion.
You be
> the judge of your own reality.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
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>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date: 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Hi, Bob and EVeryone - And Merry Christmas!

Following up on Bob Rice's post, I have a 98 Ranger clutchless conversion and it shifts good enough for me (takes 1 to 2 seconds to shift gears). I can't speed shift of course and 1st is hard to get into when rolling. Now that I have over 300 miles on my conversion (and run the numbers so I know what my RPM is based on speed and gear), I've gotten into the habit of just using 3rd gear all the time. I watch my amps starting out (try to limit it to less than 400 amps) and drive all around our little New England town (up to 50 MPH). 69 mph in 3rd equates to 6,000 RPM.

Looking back on my recent conversion: IMHO, the up side of clutchless is 1) an easier motor-adapter plate-transmission conversion, 2) less mass to move/rotate when driving (ref. Bob Batson's paper on Clutchless) and 3) one less thing to maintain/replace when it wears out. The down side is 1) lost additional safety feature of putting in the clutch during an emergency and 2) can't test drive EV during construction on low volts (eg. 6 batteries & some battery cables on the motor).

Dave
www.evalbum.com/1355
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Hello Jon,

One of my motors, a GE 11 has a GM TH-400 automatic on it. It does not use 
any torque converter which is replace by a pump drive tube that is direct 
connected to the motor coupler.

It is a floating spline drive tube that is allow to float back and forth 
about 1/8 to 3/16 of a inch. Does something like a flex plate does.

There is no governor and has a manual only value body, where I select the 
gear I want to be in just like you do with a manual. The pump pressure is 
control by the vacuum modulator value on the transmission.

A GMC vacuum modulator control is connected to the accelerator linkage 
system which increases or decreases the vacuum like a engine would. As the 
vacuum increase, means you have less load, then the transmission pump 
pressure goes to about 75 psi. As the vacuum decreases, means you have more 
load, then the transmission pump goes to about 175 psi.

There is adjustment valves where you can adjust the accelerator vacuum 
control where it allows 5 in.hg. of vacuum on the low side and only allows a 
maximum of 13 in.hg. which is normally done in most of these rigs.

These accelerator vacuum control units are use on diesel vehicles. I am 
using a GMC type design for a diesel pickup.

Because I already have a very low axle ratio of 5.57:1, I selected the 1st 
gear ratio of 2.75:1 and 2nd gear ratio of 1.80:1. You can get a 4.01:1 1st 
gear if your axle ratio is a higher ratio or left as the standard ratio.

A 4.01:1 1st gear with a 5.57:1 would be too wicked for a standard street 
car. You would be pulling a overall ratio of 22.3:1 and you may break 
something or you may smash the vehicles that are park in front and rear of 
you if you have your controller set on violent mode.

I can let it stay in 2nd gear for any speed up to 52 mph which is 6000 rpm 
on this motor, so I leave it in 2nd gear for all my city driving, it's 
something like a semi-automatic-manual transmission.

You can get any type of automatic set up like the above from tci.com

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


> Phil makes a good point about the transmission itself having a neutral.
> I have both a manual and an automatic ICE. I switch between both of them
> often. I would have no problems with putting it in neutral in either car
> in an emergency. However, my wife would have problems. She doesnt put
> the manual into neutral to coast, she holds the clutch in. Also she
> never uses any setting other than 'R' and 'D' in an automatic (I tend to
> move it around).
>
> It depends on WHO is going to drive the car I think. Using the clutch
> pedal to cut the power in an emergency would not come to my mind, but it
> works for Darin I suppose. I think my first reaction to a car going
> faster than I want it to would be to put on the brakes! Thats what
> brakes do after all.. they slow you down. If the brakes werent working
> (and I still had time to think about it), I would go for the
> transmission next.
>
> What about those who do conversions with automatic transmissions? There
> is no clutch to argue about there. What do they do for the 'extra'
> safety measure? What do/did OEMs do?
>
> I like having a clutch for a manual just so the shifting is smooth and
> fast if I want to take off fast.
>
> -Jon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*



> S Collins wrote:
> > If both options were readily available, I'd sure pick
> > a clutched conversion.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Different, yet related, has anyone every heard of
> someone slicing the end off the (presumably) blown
> motor and reusing that mating interface/housing for
> the electric motor somehow? I dunno, use the end of
> the crankshaft and bearing some way, or make a
> coupling that replaces it?

That is the way the adapter was made for my Suzuki. I also know of a
VW bug done this way. It is certainly worth consideration if you need
an adapter. Saves a lot of measuring and machining.  There are some
good pics at http://stormc.smugmug.com/gallery/3690200#211185506 .
-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Steve Clunn's video "Convert your Pick-up to Electric" at
www.grassrootsev.com has a nice section on making the adapters.




> storm connors <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Different, yet related, has anyone every heard of
> > > someone slicing the end off the (presumably) blown
> > > motor and reusing that mating interface/housing for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Nice discussion so far...

I'd love to lose the flywheel on my Toyota conversion - that sucker feels 
like 30+ pounds! BUT... It's going to be driven a lot by my wife. She'd 
flail me after trying to shift w/o a clutch.

The clutch is *designed* to disconnect the tranny for shifting. I'd think 
transmissions are *designed* to be disconnected during a shift as well. 
You CAN shift clutchless, but it's another non-"standard" thing about your 
EV. Don't expect too many other people to want to test drive it.

Instead, find a lighter flywheel/pressure plate. Or have a machine shop 
get rid of the excess. Save the clutchless conversions for 
transmissionless vehicles 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

If the motor is getting power you will not be able to pull the tranny 
out of gear. The main concern for disconnecting the motor is a 
shorted on controller.

That said - shutting off the main contactor (properly rated for the 
voltage and amperage it could see) is the best way to shut the power 
down - it doesn't destroy the motor and send parts flying!

I've blown a Curtis 1221B full on - the Albright SW200 main contactor 
had no problems cutting the power that 120 volts worth of Optima 
batteries could dump into a Prestolite motor (at low motor rpm's - 
amps so high the brakes couldn't stop tire spin!)

Paul



> Kip C. Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Even so, the idea of being locked
> > into gear is still a bit of a fallacy if the shifter mechanism is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*



> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> 
> > I personally have been starting to view the clutchless versus clutch
> > controversy to be a religious venue and as such I have tried to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Clutch or clutch less, using the clutch pedal to drop out the main
contactor and placing a load on the motor would make for faster shifts.

Would the zilla like or dislike having the main contactor dropped out
like that.?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

The "flywheel" is really not needed and actually undesirable but you
don't need one for a clutch. They call them a button flywheel and in my
installation the small light clutch weights less than my taperlock
adapter. The racers have figured this out, I cut off the teeth and made
it even lighter. My problem was I just chose the wrong kind of guts for
the clutch. definitely should of got friction type with springs in disk.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Yeah, I've seen EVParts list and it seemed rather
limited for an adapter that kept the clutch.

I may yet decide to send them the tranny for my donor
vehicle, though I'd much rather send the measurements.
I saw one video where a guy imprinted the mating
flange of the tranny by putting paint (or ink?) onto
the face and then pressing it carefully into a flat
piece of paper on a rigid foam backing to get an
image, including the location of the shaft. Then, I
would think depth measurements for the shaft as well
as the spline data would be all that's needed to send.

Regarding, Clunn's video, I ordered it and just got it
the other day. It's okay, but I was expecting more
detailed and brightly-lit shots and not such a fast
rambling of explanation. It was more of a lengthy
YouTube video than what I had hoped. It would probably
work for a auto tech who has messed with trannies and
done welding before.
But, yes, the idea of placing spacers in between two
plates was interesting, though it seems to leave
everything open to the elements.

Hey, it's good to see that others have done the
engine-slice method. Probably depends upon the engine
and how well you mate the new motor to it as to
whether it's a good idea or not.

Thanks to all of you for the great discussion!

Scott


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*



> Imbob wrote:
> > It depends on WHO is going to drive the car I think. Using the clutch
> > pedal to cut the power in an emergency would not come to my mind, but it
> > works for Darin I suppose.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*



> Kip C. Anderson wrote:
> ...
> > I think the best way to consider this issue relies on figuring out if one
> > needs more than a single gear. Most likely, anybody planning on use over 40
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

as a Safety thing IF yur controller 
locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT hap



> Bob Rice-2 wrote:
> >
> >
> > It happened to me a couple of months ago. I was pointing at the front of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?*

Again, KEEP THE PEDAL, and rig it up to a mechanical power disconnect in 
addition to the normal breaker/contactor setup. Not only does it save your 
butt, but it saves the motor too.

- Kip

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?


>
> as a Safety thing IF yur controller
> locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT hap
>


> > Bob Rice-2 wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It happened to me a couple of months ago. I was pointing at the front of
> ...


----------

