# How do they do it, Locomotives



## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm sure all of you have seen the commercial where CSX gets 500 miles on one gal of fuel. This started the gears in my head to turn and smoke and ask why can't I do this. My friend and I have built a gassifier and we can run a generator with it.This brought to mind is it at all possible to run a electric motor from a generator to power a vehicle without the use of batteries. Here is where we need help from all of you. What type of motor and how many amps Will it use to operate a Chevy S10 5 speed manual xmission at a sustained speed of 55mph. Our gassifier can run a 20 hp generator. Thanks in advance.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Step one: Design a custom wheel set and track as efficient as possible that only vehicles like yours can use nationwide.
Step two: Don't turn. If a mountain is in your way, blow it up.
Step: three: Don't stop. If a car gets in your way, crush it.
Step four: Don't sweat the 0-60. Take 2-5 miles to accelerate or decelerate.

Yes, you can run an EV for longer range using a generator.
No, you can't do it without batteries. That would mean your generator would have to be producing the max power you need all the time which is infeasible and inefficient.

Your 20 HP generator may be able to maintain 55 mph, but it won't get you up to 55 in a reasonable amount of time.


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

Fuel is not a issue here, my question is what hp/torque AC motor and size generator would work ?
Thanks again


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If fuel is not an issue then why did 500 miles on a gallon of fuel get your interest?


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

It was the way they use a generator and electric motors without batteries , we dont need the conventional fuel to power our generator we can use wood in a gassifier to generate syngas to operate it. Thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think for a vehicle application you'd be better off driving the wheels directly if you are using an ICE than you would be with the conversion losses of ICE-Generator-Electric motor. No OEM's build a series hybrid without batteries, and I think only Fisker uses a series hybrid with batteries, and it's not very efficient. If you can run a generator with the gassifier why not just run an engine with it?


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

There is so much extra work to do all the plumbing and you have to build a much larger gassifier and there is the all the problems with filtration and tar and the correct air fuel ratio adjustments while underway for the ICE engine. The smaller engines in a generator are so much easier to control than one in a vehicle Thanks.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

As mentioned, there will be losses associated with converteting mechanical power to electrical, then back again. Assuming a peak efficiency of 90% for the motor and generator, the net loss will be at least 20%, and that doesn't factor in the different RPMs, and whatever remaining drivline losses still in the vehicle.

One question though. You say the gasifier can run a 20 Hp generator...
Can it actually produce 20 Hp? Have you made sure it can deliver the rated output?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If the smaller engine in the generator has enough power to run the vehicle through the genset and electric motor then the same engine would give you more power, without the conversion losses, if it were driving the vehicle directly through a transmission. Basically, if you wouldn't try to drive the car with a 20 hp max ICE why would you think you could drive it with a 20 hp max genset?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

From my experience wood gasification is messy and a lot of work for what you get. It would probably be better to have the gasified wood generator stationary and use it to charge the batteries in your EV. Even if you had a big enough generator to run an electric motor big enough to push your car at 50mph you would need a fireman to keep the gasification going while you are driving. From my shaky memory Diesel Electric trains have big 12 cylinder Diesel engines that turn six or seven hundred rpm to drive massive generators. It also takes more than one locomotive to pull 100 box cars. I used to live in the high desert 5,500 feet at the top of a place called Cajon Pass. I could hear the Diesels winding up from 10 miles away as they were pulling that grade from about 2,000 feet up to where it leveled off at about 5,000. That is pretty much how you would have to drive a car powered directly from a generator. Know where the hills are and rev the generator up before you hit the hill and the accelerator.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

execelon7 said:


> I'm sure all of you have seen the commercial where CSX gets 500 miles on one gal of fuel.


That has to be out of context. A locomotive does not get 500 mpg. Ever see the size fuel tanks on those suckers. Maybe a freight train with 100 loaded cars gets the equivalent of 500 miles per gallon per ton or a passenger train gets the equivalent of 500 miles per gallon per passenger. But no way is it a straight 500 mpg for a railway locomotive.


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

Gassifiers are rated at the size of the burn chamber to produce the amount of syngas to the application, a 4'' throat will accommodate up to a 20hp ic. Also the rate of loss in conversion from gasoline to syngas is from 25 to 30 % in the engine performance. Our unit will power the gen at full throttle , but here is where I am "STUPID" and need your help. What size electric motor to use and how many amps will it pull and what size generator to run it. I know we will have to have a controller and a inverter also for the DC on board. Thanks


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks for the info all.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

major said:


> That has to be out of context.


Yes, it's for a ton of freight moved.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

execelon7 said:


> Gassifiers are rated at the size of the burn chamber to produce the amount of syngas to the application, a 4'' throat will accommodate up to a 20hp ic. Also the rate of loss in conversion from gasoline to syngas is from 25 to 30 % in the engine performance. Our unit will power the gen at full throttle , but here is where I am "STUPID" and need your help. What size electric motor to use and how many amps will it pull and what size generator to run it. I know we will have to have a controller and a inverter also for the DC on board. Thanks


20 hp = 14.9 kW (input to generator) * .85 (efficiency) = 12.67 kW (generator output) * .9 (control efficiency) = 11.4 kW (input to motor) * .85 (efficiency) = 9.7 kW (motor output power) = 13 hp (input to the transmission to power the car)

Pick your system voltage and use "Power = Volts * Amps" to figure currents.


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## execelon7 (Jan 25, 2008)

major said:


> 20 hp = 14.9 kW (input to generator) * .85 (efficiency) = 12.67 kW (generator output) * .9 (control efficiency) = 11.4 kW (input to motor) * .85 (efficiency) = 9.7 kW (motor output power) = 13 hp (input to the transmission to power the car)
> 
> Pick your system voltage and use "Power = Volts * Amps" to figure currents.


 Thank you Sir for your help.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

Using my EV calculator http://enginuitysystems.com/EVCalculator.htm a 2200 lb vehicle would need 26.6 HP to maintain 55 MPH on a 5% grade. 13 HP could maintain 30 MPH on that grade, or 50 MPH on a 1.5% grade. Most railways are less than 2% grade, while interstate highways may be 6% and other roads may be as much as 20% (especially driveways and ramps). It is certainly a good idea to have at least a small battery pack to provide extra power when needed, and to accept regen for an AC system. A 30-40 HP motor would be a good size to provide torque and power as needed, and a 5 kWh battery pack with 10C capability will do the job for short term power and regen, and will not be too costly (maybe $3000).


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

You also have to consider locomotives have a simple mechanical setup, literally two gears. One on the traction motor, one on the wheel. Then consider they use steel wheels for little rolling resistance. The other thing to factor in, they have advanced control systems and can be programmed for specific rail roads and specific destinations and load..etc... Their generators/alternators have response systems to maximize fuel efficiency. They don't work like regular generators for residential use, that maintain a constant voltage. They vary the speed and torque of the engine in realtime for maximum economy or maximum power and anywhere inbetween. Interesting enough, there are a few stories showing up around the internet about a battery powered train, they say it not only saves fuel but also the brake resistors. Good luck with your projects


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