# [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading=
to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells =
are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Ma=
nzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cel=
ls in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular=
manner, requiring connections of both types.

The spacing between terminals is 77mm and I need only three "cross-connects=
" but have been unable to find a suitable connection which resembles the fl=
at copper straps.

I have left-over cable from the Deka pack previously installed, but I like =
the consistency of appearance that the copper straps present. I'd be happy =
to use copper braid of sufficient capacity, but have not found that, either.

What vendors are out there that might have 77mm spacing for such connection=
s? Google searches tend to provide nothing close, which certainly means =
I'm using the wrong search terms.

thanks
fred
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Fred,

You could get some copper sheet from http://www.onlinemetals.com/ and some
shrink wrap and make your own?

Travis
http://www.evalbum.com/3145



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of fred
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?

Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading
to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells
are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction.
Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of
cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a
rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.

The spacing between terminals is 77mm and I need only three "cross-connects"
but have been unable to find a suitable connection which resembles the flat
copper straps.

I have left-over cable from the Deka pack previously installed, but I like
the consistency of appearance that the copper straps present. I'd be happy
to use copper braid of sufficient capacity, but have not found that, either.

What vendors are out there that might have 77mm spacing for such
connections? Google searches tend to provide nothing close, which certai=
nly
means I'm using the wrong search terms.

thanks
fred
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Which size/thickness should one buy? Below is from the copper foil section. 

0.03 MM (1 OZ.) COPPER C110 SHEET


0.1 MM (3 OZ.) COPPER C110 SHEET


0.13 MM COPPER C110 O60 (SOFT) SHEET SOFT TEMPER 


0.17 MM (5 OZ.) COPPER C110 SHEET


-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. 
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/interconnects-for-CALB-180-ah-cells-tp3538300p3538535.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Fred,
Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:

http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/

I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you going.

Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around at all.

corbin




> fred wrote:
> 
> > Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Fred,

I did something very similar, and it seems to be working fine. Like 
Corbin, my batteries are tightly held together, so having a solid 
interconnect is fine.

http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/?p=164

Cheers,
Peter

On 5/20/2011 7:46 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
> Hi Fred,
> Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:
>
> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
>
> I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you going.
>
> Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around at all.
>
> corbin
>
>
>


> fred wrote:
> >
> >> Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Let me just point out that because something is fine for a day, a week, a month or a year, does not mean there will never be negative consequences. 
For the record I am far from a perfectionist when it comes to putting my EV's together. I have used rigid bus bars for years on my Nicad cells. It has damaged numerous seals... this doesn't really bother me though, especially since I did not pay a lot of money for the cells in the first place and also because it just makes cells that are already messy, a bit more messy. These are flooded cells, so any fluid that is lost can be easily replaced. I suspect ruining the seal on a lithium cell is less desirable.
The fact that you have not had problems with rigid bus bars yet does not mean it won't be a problem in the future. Perhaps your vehicle will be exposed to some unexpected trauma such as an unusually rough road, hitting a curb or being in an accident. Maybe just the usual amount of vibration you experience over a long enough time frame will cause problems. I don't know. 
I would just say that if you are starting from the ground up, and have sunk a significant investment into your new lithium pack you should seriously consider interconnects which are flexible. There are many techniques that have been discussed on this list in the past to accomplish this. Look at the extra time/money it involves and decide whether it is worth it to you or not.

damon 
> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:21:59 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?
> 
> Hi Fred,
> 
> I did something very similar, and it seems to be working fine. Like 
> Corbin, my batteries are tightly held together, so having a solid 
> interconnect is fine.
> 
> http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/?p=164
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> On 5/20/2011 7:46 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
> > Hi Fred,
> > Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:
> >
> > http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
> >
> > I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you going.
> >
> > Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around at all.
> >
> > corbin
> >
> >
> >


> fred wrote:
> > >
> > >> Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.
> > >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Damon,

Yes, I seriously thought about that problem. I did experiment with 
using braided copper interconnects, but they were just about as 
inflexible as solid copper. Same with using cable. Worse - with the 
braided copper, I had to use a lot of solder to get something solid to 
connect to the battery, so it was really adding to the weight and cost.

When dealing with small batteries, there just isn't a lot of choice. Of 
course, if someone could point me to something that would work 
off-the-shelf, I'd be delighted.

Cheers,
Peter

On 5/20/2011 10:46 AM, damon henry wrote:
> Let me just point out that because something is fine for a day, a week, a month or a year, does not mean there will never be negative consequences.
> For the record I am far from a perfectionist when it comes to putting my EV's together. I have used rigid bus bars for years on my Nicad cells. It has damaged numerous seals... this doesn't really bother me though, especially since I did not pay a lot of money for the cells in the first place and also because it just makes cells that are already messy, a bit more messy. These are flooded cells, so any fluid that is lost can be easily replaced. I suspect ruining the seal on a lithium cell is less desirable.
> The fact that you have not had problems with rigid bus bars yet does not mean it won't be a problem in the future. Perhaps your vehicle will be exposed to some unexpected trauma such as an unusually rough road, hitting a curb or being in an accident. Maybe just the usual amount of vibration you experience over a long enough time frame will cause problems. I don't know.
> I would just say that if you are starting from the ground up, and have sunk a significant investment into your new lithium pack you should seriously consider interconnects which are flexible. There are many techniques that have been discussed on this list in the past to accomplish this. Look at the extra time/money it involves and decide whether it is worth it to you or not.
>
> damon
>> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:21:59 -0700
>> From: [email protected]
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> I did something very similar, and it seems to be working fine. Like
>> Corbin, my batteries are tightly held together, so having a solid
>> interconnect is fine.
>>
>> http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/?p=164
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>>
>> On 5/20/2011 7:46 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
>>> Hi Fred,
>>> Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:
>>>
>>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
>>>
>>> I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you going.
>>>
>>> Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around at all.
>>>
>>> corbin
>>>
>>>
>>>


> fred wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.
> >>>>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A typical solution would be thinner layers of copper with a bend in them to added some flex. It is likely not a DIY project, although that is not totally out of the question, but the amount of work it requires makes getting it done in a machine shop very tempting. I have a bunch of braided interconnects that came with some of the Nicads I purchased and those would work nicely as well. If you have already done the homework though and have found the cost/benefit not to your liking I can see that. I personally don't see a lot of exposure for damage in the scenarios outlined below, I just hate for someone to blindly go down that route without carefully considering all their options. I happen to have a very EV friendly machine shop handy where I can usually go after hours and get this kind of work done for free, so my cost benefit ratio is likely different than yours.
damon

> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:51:30 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?
> 
> Hi Damon,
> 
> Yes, I seriously thought about that problem. I did experiment with 
> using braided copper interconnects, but they were just about as 
> inflexible as solid copper. Same with using cable. Worse - with the 
> braided copper, I had to use a lot of solder to get something solid to 
> connect to the battery, so it was really adding to the weight and cost.
> 
> When dealing with small batteries, there just isn't a lot of choice. Of 
> course, if someone could point me to something that would work 
> off-the-shelf, I'd be delighted.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> On 5/20/2011 10:46 AM, damon henry wrote:
> > Let me just point out that because something is fine for a day, a week, a month or a year, does not mean there will never be negative consequences.
> > For the record I am far from a perfectionist when it comes to putting my EV's together. I have used rigid bus bars for years on my Nicad cells. It has damaged numerous seals... this doesn't really bother me though, especially since I did not pay a lot of money for the cells in the first place and also because it just makes cells that are already messy, a bit more messy. These are flooded cells, so any fluid that is lost can be easily replaced. I suspect ruining the seal on a lithium cell is less desirable.
> > The fact that you have not had problems with rigid bus bars yet does not mean it won't be a problem in the future. Perhaps your vehicle will be exposed to some unexpected trauma such as an unusually rough road, hitting a curb or being in an accident. Maybe just the usual amount of vibration you experience over a long enough time frame will cause problems. I don't know.
> > I would just say that if you are starting from the ground up, and have sunk a significant investment into your new lithium pack you should seriously consider interconnects which are flexible. There are many techniques that have been discussed on this list in the past to accomplish this. Look at the extra time/money it involves and decide whether it is worth it to you or not.
> >
> > damon
> >> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:21:59 -0700
> >> From: [email protected]
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?
> >>
> >> Hi Fred,
> >>
> >> I did something very similar, and it seems to be working fine. Like
> >> Corbin, my batteries are tightly held together, so having a solid
> >> interconnect is fine.
> >>
> >> http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/?p=164
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> On 5/20/2011 7:46 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>> Hi Fred,
> >>> Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
> >>>
> >>> I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you going.
> >>>
> >>> Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around at all.
> >>>
> >>> corbin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>


> fred wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of CALB 180ah cells are not conducive to connecting from cell to cell in the long direction. Manzanita Micro provided flat copper straps drilled for the connection of cells in the perpendicular direction, but my pack is arranged in a rectangular manner, requiring connections of both types.
> > >>>>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Damon,
How are your cells held together? What made them fail with the solid interconnects? Did you move to using non-solid ones, or the layered approach? 

Looking at my cells, I just don't think there would be enough movement to cause any trouble with solid interconnects.

--corbin



> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> > Let me just point out that because something is fine for a day, a week, a month or a year, does not mean there will never be negative consequences.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It is best to install battery cells in a press fit battery box. We press 
fit the Nicad's in a neoprene line aluminum box with the help of some GE 
dielectric silicone grease in aircraft. These all have solid bars. The 
neoprene cover presses down on the batteries which retains them no matter 
what position the aircraft is in.

Fork lift and other utility EV vehicles use Tudor type 2 volt cells where 
the solid links are welded onto the post. My first EV had these 2.2 v Tudor 
cells that the bus bars were welded to the post. They cells were place 1/4 
inch apart and a plastic 1/4 inch sheet was place between all the cell cases 
which was recess down from the top of the battery top about a 1/4 inch. 
Then a neoprene compound was pour over these dividers.

I use the same method with my standard six volt battery, except I do not use 
the spacers between the battery but between the fiberglass battery box wall 
and battery. The links are only 5.5 inches long with only 2 inches of 2/0 
wire expose that has a very heavy duty thick glue on heat shrink which makes 
them very stiff. This method has now work for me for 35 years.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter C. Thompson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?


> Hi Damon,
>
> Yes, I seriously thought about that problem. I did experiment with
> using braided copper interconnects, but they were just about as
> inflexible as solid copper. Same with using cable. Worse - with the
> braided copper, I had to use a lot of solder to get something solid to
> connect to the battery, so it was really adding to the weight and cost.
>
> When dealing with small batteries, there just isn't a lot of choice. Of
> course, if someone could point me to something that would work
> off-the-shelf, I'd be delighted.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On 5/20/2011 10:46 AM, damon henry wrote:
> > Let me just point out that because something is fine for a day, a week, 
> > a month or a year, does not mean there will never be negative 
> > consequences.
> > For the record I am far from a perfectionist when it comes to putting my 
> > EV's together. I have used rigid bus bars for years on my Nicad cells. 
> > It has damaged numerous seals... this doesn't really bother me though, 
> > especially since I did not pay a lot of money for the cells in the first 
> > place and also because it just makes cells that are already messy, a bit 
> > more messy. These are flooded cells, so any fluid that is lost can be 
> > easily replaced. I suspect ruining the seal on a lithium cell is less 
> > desirable.
> > The fact that you have not had problems with rigid bus bars yet does not 
> > mean it won't be a problem in the future. Perhaps your vehicle will be 
> > exposed to some unexpected trauma such as an unusually rough road, 
> > hitting a curb or being in an accident. Maybe just the usual amount of 
> > vibration you experience over a long enough time frame will cause 
> > problems. I don't know.
> > I would just say that if you are starting from the ground up, and have 
> > sunk a significant investment into your new lithium pack you should 
> > seriously consider interconnects which are flexible. There are many 
> > techniques that have been discussed on this list in the past to 
> > accomplish this. Look at the extra time/money it involves and decide 
> > whether it is worth it to you or not.
> >
> > damon
> >> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:21:59 -0700
> >> From: [email protected]
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] interconnects for CALB 180 ah cells?
> >>
> >> Hi Fred,
> >>
> >> I did something very similar, and it seems to be working fine. Like
> >> Corbin, my batteries are tightly held together, so having a solid
> >> interconnect is fine.
> >>
> >> http://cruzware.com/peter/blog/?p=164
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> On 5/20/2011 7:46 AM, corbin dunn wrote:
> >>> Hi Fred,
> >>> Check out my thoughts on my bus bars:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2011/01/plug-bug-battery-bus-bars/
> >>>
> >>> I went with solid 1" x 1/8" copper, with some shrink tubing between 
> >>> the holes. Drill the holes anyway you can, and that should get you 
> >>> going.
> >>>
> >>> Some people don't like to use the rigid interconnects because it might 
> >>> cause undo stress on the batteries. So far I haven't had any problems, 
> >>> but my cells are strapped together quite tight and don't move around 
> >>> at all.
> >>>
> >>> corbin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>


> fred wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Good day, all. As part of my continuing, slowly moving project of
> > >>>> upgrading to LiFePO4, I've discovered that the terminal spacing of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Fred,

I just got some interconnects for a larger battery for my setup. I
only needed 2 of them since I turn around the front row to make the +
terminal more accessible. For only 2-3 interconnects you could do what
Lee suggested and get the thin copper sheet and cut out several
strips. Layer them and put a slight bend in them then clamp them down
and drill the holes with a step drill and shrink wrap the centers.

As you know, and others may not, the Gizmo has a very stiff
suspension. It is almost as if it has no spring in it so the batteries
are given shock treatment any time you are driving it. I wouldn't want
to use a thick solid bus bar.

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I forgot to add that you could always go with the braided
interconnects from EV Works:
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-EVW-BCI-80-8

These are 80mm long so would do what you want and will flex the other 3mm.



> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> > I just got some interconnects for a larger battery for my setup. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Too many responses to edit down in my usual manner. I very much appreciate =
the assistance with this. I had forgotten about the copper tubing method, a=
nd the local hardware store has plenty of the stuff, but then I read about =
the rigid aspect of this method.

I know from experience that no visible movement does not mean no movement. =
Unless I could be assured of a very solid mount, and I cannot, I don't care=
to risk the investment. The provided copper interconnects have a slight=
bend and I see that as a compensator of sorts for movement. The copper may=
flex a bit, and it's easy to do it by hand. The flex may fatigue the conne=
ction over years, but I'd rather replace a twenty dollar strap than a gazil=
lion dollar pack. (A Gazillion is slightly more than a Brazillian, accordin=
g to the internet)

I've yet to measure the thickness of my currently supplied straps, so I'm n=
ot sure which stuff to order, but I think it'd be a simple matter to build =
a jig from wood with the necessary curve (with compensation) and hammer out=
a few straps. It will take some experimentation, of course. Failures are j=
ust one more step on the way to success.

The onlinemetals option may be my best choice.

thanks again

fred



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi David,

Yes, that is what I was trying to create on my first pass. Something 
like this would be ideal, now if only there was a company that produced 
this in the US or Canada or Mexico.

Cheers,
Peter

On 5/20/2011 3:51 PM, David Nelson wrote:
> I forgot to add that you could always go with the braided
> interconnects from EV Works:
> http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-EVW-BCI-80-8
>
> These are 80mm long so would do what you want and will flex the other 3mm.
>
>


> David Nelson<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hi Fred,
> >>
> >> I just got some interconnects for a larger battery for my setup. I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Fred,

I agree with Damon, 100%. The amount of movement required to 
potentially irreparably damage your post seals may only be a 
thousandth of an inch. Any device with some form of movement 
allowance will simply eliminate this issue. I don't quite understand 
what the big issue is tho I think initially it was an esthetic thing. 
Well sometimes esthetics just have to take a back seat in engineering, 
just to get the job done right, within a budget and sometime soon!

Peter said "Worse - with the braided copper, I had to use a lot of 
solder to get something solid to connect to the battery". Do you mean 
you are making your own? If so - and this is something I tried - I 
would not bother as, if you do not use the right sort of solder, you 
will never get a good connection as the solder keeps on squashing 
every time you tighten the connection. If you want to do this I would 
try using a normal cable lug and mount these on the ends of your braid 
using my favorite system, a cheap Chinese hydraulic crimper off eBay 
($15-30).

In conclusion, if you are connecting 2 cells which are not rigidly 
bound together then you *must* use braid or cable. They may seem 
inflexible but they are 1,000,000 more so than a solid bar of copper. 
For cells that are bound together rigidly, use the layered copper 
interconnects with the little bump in the middle. These are probably 
somewhere between the other two in terms of flexibility and are 
relatively easy to make yourself.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> Peter C. Thompson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Damon,
> >
> ...


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