# Desulfators - tested



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I wouldn't use the Maxx29s either.


----------



## CodaBlaster (Apr 14, 2010)

Sad, there were lots of big claims. I guess stuff that works doesn't need the hard sell

At least we know. Thanks for the post. SHould help lots of people searching google for "desulfator"


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> I was always hoping that magic Desulfator will prolong my batteries life.
> 
> After 3 months that my desulfator was connected - the battery under "cure" lost probalby half of it's "original" capacity. Where initially it lasted ~3 miles - now I only got 1.5 until it went to 0 volta under 100A load
> 
> ...


There are many scam desulphators out there, some only have a blinking LED and nothing more, so best to stick with ones that are known by others to work.

Next there are many problems with this threads logic, reminds me of the Hypermiling does not work threads I see somewhere else.

In any event I will offer some explanations you can refute me if you like.

1. Desulphators are meant to be used with a trickle charger or during the charge cycle of the batteries. (most effective used this way) Lest they discharge your pack.

2. The desulphators that "continously" desulphate use about 50ma-150ma of electricity and are intended for the whole pack where the pack is charged about every day, where that may not seem like much amp draw my 12v analog meter which draws only 8ma forces me to do a spot charge to balance my set of greensavers about once a week or so, 

DID you spot charge the battery often and keep track of its voltage over time? Afterall it has a load on it, if you want to do another test, find a 50ma LED and put it on one of your batteries and see what happens after 3 months. Same thing I would estimate.

I personally have had success with home built desulphators and this old BD-2 with my trojans and old used telephone company agms usually around 20% but again I kept them under charge while desulphating or balanced them often when apart of my pack. And normally I keep my whole pack on a desulphator so it stays balanced.

An imbalanced pack will destroy batteries faster than anything else and I believe that is all your test accomplished with certainty.

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

Coley said:


> I wouldn't use the Maxx29s either.


Let me know how else I can build a 13 mile range EV for under $1000 total budget and have 18 month warranty on batteries?


*rmay635703* I see your point, but I think my next comment wil cross over all yours: I use my EV daily, and charge it daily. I watch voltage on every battery thru individual volt meter. Battery started sagging slowly over 3-4 months.

Also, I did take a look inside a desulfator - it has coil, transistor and some pulse generator - all that's needed to send the impulses. Anlo high pitch sound is produced when it's plugged in.


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> Let me know how else I can build a 13 mile range EV for under $1000 total budget and have 18 month warranty on batteries?


 Junkyard 1yr old golf cart batteries (don't expect the warranty) 



Stunt Driver said:


> *rmay635703* I see your point, but I think my next comment wil cross over all yours: I use my EV daily, and charge it daily. I watch voltage on every battery thru individual volt meter. Battery started sagging slowly over 3-4 months.
> 
> Also, I did take a look inside a desulfator - it has coil, transistor and some pulse generator - all that's needed to send the impulses. Anlo high pitch sound is produced when it's plugged in.


So it at least is a functional desulphator, some are not, so long as you made sure to keep the one under load fully charged each day It would seem desulphation only works on some old batteries under specific circumstances.

I have been told before its just the overcharge that brings the batteries back yet after that failed I used a desulphator can got back some volts after charge. Odd indeed.


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

Stunt Driver said:


> WizBangPlus desulfator up for sale - $15.


how could you buy something with a name like that and take it seriously?!


----------



## Stunt Driver (May 14, 2009)

*dtbaker* - i paid more than that Or you think i'm trying to get all the cost back after such advertizement?

name doestn't matter - coid and impulse does.



*rmay635703* - I guess quite specific circumstances. Probably helping wasted betteries get up to just "bad". But it ruined my new MAXX

As for junkyards - if i'd have a source - i'd buy a set, but I just don't have that much free time to constantly browse scrap places.
$600 is not that big of a deal for 18 months warrante. 
I had to go thru some pain for getting replacement, but I got it. Probably, I will check back at 17.5 months


----------



## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:
"Let me know how else I can build a 13 mile range EV for under $1000 total budget and have 18 month warranty on batteries?"

I already did and had 24 month battery warranty.
I tested a Maxx29 and it didn't hold up.

Now using Dekas and having great results.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Years ago I used something called a "Solargizer" from Pulse Tech, I think. It had a small solar panel that powered it and I rescued many "dead" batteries with it. Eventually something fell on the solar panel and crushed it, I tried hooking it up to a 12V power source and killed it


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Years ago I used something called a "Solargizer" from Pulse Tech, I think. It had a small solar panel that powered it and I rescued many "dead" batteries with it. Eventually something fell on the solar panel and crushed it, I tried hooking it up to a 12V power source and killed it


Yep, solargizer, Solar Converters and even the Battery Minder all function each to their own form. I have never heard much positive about any other brands besides those three (except of coarse the home built unit from alastaire)

I think maybe the key here is the condition of the batteries desulphated (AKA were they really sulphated) and the brand of desulphator.

Another consideration is the type of desulphator, some are for maintenance, others are only for charging dead batteries, I think if you try to use the more aggressive one for charging a dead battery on a good battery or for maintenance it must not work well.

Much the same that a maintainer desulphator takes months to bring back a dead battery.

I guess I have always used desulphators on bad batteries, not good and the only exception was my fathers ZX40 which had sat for 3.5 years, it had Powerpulse desulphators and 2 of the batteries were perfect out the door the other 2 failed in about 4-6 months. (never heard of powerpulse good or bad prior to his minivan)

SO a mixed bag but i have to say I would not have expected any of the sitting batteries to function after sitting 3.5years so perhaps something to say about the right maintainer.


----------



## Guest (Apr 17, 2010)

Stunt Driver, To truly learn is by doing. I take stock in what you said based on the fact that you are actually trying something. Over the years most of what I have read about battery desulfators has been on the negative side(no pun intended). rmay, This is not a challenge to your claims but do you have an idea of how much longer you have extended the life of your batteries? I just got my third 144 volt pack of T-875 Trojans. The last two lasted 3 years six months with over 550 cycles mostly from 50% DOD. All I did with those was keep them clean and watered with an equalization about every tenth charge. I have over 250 miles on the new pack now. I just went out and looked at the chart and was surprised to see I had that many miles already in three weeks. I have charged it 18 times. If I were to try a desulfator when should one start? From the beginning or wait months or years before starting? I am sort of answering this by guessing it would be easier to keep clean plates clean than have to chip through a thicker crust of that nasty stuff Later. Yes? No? Ok so I read the second page before I posted this. I’m not going to delete any of it just add a final thought. Conclusion; We still don't know for sure if these things really work or not. To buy one at any price and hook it up is still a crap shoot. You win some and lose some.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

This isn't my EV but it does belong to a member here, vpoppv. He had described his adventure with the Wizbang on the batteries in his $535.78 EV. His batteries were group 24 sized cores from a boat shop that he got for $7 each. He tossed a few batteries that were shot for good and then keeps a Wizbang on the worst one, reading through the blog at the bottom of his EVAlbum.com page tells the story. It seems to be working for him with the 31mph at 2/5 throttle(1970 ohms) with 6 mile range he needs on batteries that other people had given up on.

http://www.evalbum.com/2958
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34523


His second EV, currently in progress
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ev2-1986-toyota-corolla-37829.html


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

notmrwizard said:


> Stunt Driver, To truly learn is by doing. I take stock in what you said based on the fact that you are actually trying something. Over the years most of what I have read about battery desulfators has been on the negative side(no pun intended). rmay, This is not a challenge to your claims but do you have an idea of how much longer you have extended the life of your batteries?
> 
> You win some and lose some.


I have tried many things, trouble is I always did it coupled with other methods.

My comments are from doing; thats why I tend to believe if you have the time you CAN do things to extend battery life, there are also many old fogies who know much more than me that have used junkyard batteries for years. One individual on the yahoo c-car forum has 16 year old batteries powering his car, it isn't impossible but depends greatly on DOD, maintenance, temperature and brazen determination.

In fact the US government has the distilled water wash/charge method as part of their battery maintenance guide. I think they tend to be more reputable than me.

I also agree that its also a lot of luck (chance), I still have my first set of trojan T-875s (though not in my car again), I am desulphating them again while I wait for golf season rejects. This set has passed through the hands of 3 owners including me. It was first used in a Keuwett sp? for roughly 2 years about 8000miles per the owner (maybe a bit more since he had them in other conversions before the comuta), he put them in this comuta which he restored so he could sell it with cheap used batteries he only drove a couple months and put on about 500 miles. The 2nd owner ran the car another 1500 miles over a year and then dried out the batteries (no real liquid) and then I bought the car with 6 miles range and dry batteries. 4 gallons of water and a bag of edta later along with 3 months of slowly increasing how far I went with the batteries came back. I ran 2 years and put on roughly 8500 miles the car was down to desulphate once in that interim. (I am not sure above 7000 miles because the speedo went out but my weekly rates were known fairly well until recently while I have cycled through $5 garbage spares then put the trojans in and out of service)

The batteries were pretty much useless after my 2.5 years of heavy use, I did many deep discharges (80-100% on a few cells which I would immediately recharge at 60amps on that cell briefly coupled with a pulser once home) (stupidity and audacity) coupled with many very light 15% discharges (280 cycles a year), my acid got mixed with rainwater since the car wasn't garaged and the boxes don't seal correctly which I believe is what did them in, weak acid. After desulphating this last time their state of charge has come up from 0-20% up to 20-60%. They still aren't in the car and still are desulphating, I have had them in about 6 months ago but they only provided about 2 miles range before I started desulphating them again, since they are MAJORLY imbalanced I am uncertain if they can ever be used for anything other than standby or lightbulbs now. Although I live quite close to work, they may drive me the 2.8 miles into work and possibly even back now.

I have been running junkyard batteries in interim but they are the wrong type (12v little agms) so I can't do much distance driving like i used to.

I am the type that has dumped acid used distilled, edta and pulsing to clean batteries, one in my string had that done to it after a year and it came back. I have done that with junkyard batteries my father was using
in his miles and he got a couple years out of garbage batteries before we bought his greensaver string.

So I guess batteries can be restored or even rebuilt if you have the space, time and motivation, Neon John and some of the old fogies have gone as far as to dissassemble the batteries and blow shorts, replace separators, etc. I don't feel its worth it but possible if you are strong, brazen and willing.

I will go as far as dumping the acid once, charging with distilled and a pulser then replacing the acid and I am tempted to try it again just as a test on this melted antique string. The one battery I was forced to do that to is doing the best out of the old trojan t-875 string, but looking inside I think the pack is dust, probably another washing and there won't be enough lead to drive me anywhere.

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## Guest (Apr 17, 2010)

rmay635703 said "So I guess batteries can be restored or even rebuilt if you have the space ,time and motivation" The key word is motivation. You sound quite ambitious rmay. Consequently from your hands on experience you have a better idea of what you are talking about than some one like me. I have read about sulphation and getting rid of it but any input I may give is purely by rote. I did take a car battery apart once. That was a chore. Getting it back together in working order is something I could not relate to you as I said to hell with it and junked it. If I understand right after you have done the treatments on the batteries range and performance is still noticeably diminished? I guess I am looking for the ever elusive silver bullet. The dream cure for batteries. You know just plug it in walk away for an hour or so and when you come back ta-da like new batteries! Way out there I know but not any worse than some of the flash in the pan comming soon battery claims I have read about over the years.


----------



## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> This isn't my EV but it does belong to a member here, vpoppv. He had described his adventure with the Wizbang on the batteries in his $535.78 EV. His batteries were group 24 sized cores from a boat shop that he got for $7 each. He tossed a few batteries that were shot for good and then keeps a Wizbang on the worst one, reading through the blog at the bottom of his EVAlbum.com page tells the story. It seems to be working for him with the 31mph at 2/5 throttle(1970 ohms) with 6 mile range he needs on batteries that other people had given up on.
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/2958
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34523
> ...


 LOL! I think my ears were burning or something, because I just had an itch to visit this forum again after a little hiatus.

Stunt Driver: Consider your Desulfator *SOLD*! The funny thing is I just put one on my eBay watch list and was discussing with my wife about buying another one a couple hours ago! I think they are little miracle workers, and I wish I had more of them. I think perhaps the reason I am having great luck with mine is that I have a much different battery condition than you do. The marine batteries I get probably are forgotten in a boat and expected to work maybe one day a year and allowed to discharge over time and accumulate the sulfation. The battery I had it on was reading about 12.00v after commute and is now up to 12.43v after commute. It was a slow increase over time, but a little better every day. By contrast, all the other batteries show either a constant voltage or a slight drop over time (excluding variations due to cold weather). I have my doubts about the desulfator saving batteries over time if they are new batteries, but I do believe that they will continue to increase an old battery's capacity over time, until some kind of "max" is reached. In any case, let me know how you would like me to send you some money so that I can take that desulfator off your hands....


----------



## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

notmrwizard said:


> rmay635703 said "So I guess batteries can be restored or even rebuilt if you have the space ,time and motivation" The key word is motivation. You sound quite ambitious rmay.
> 
> The dream cure for batteries. You know just plug it in walk away for an hour or so and when you come back ta-da like new batteries! Way out there I know but not any worse than some of the flash in the pan comming soon battery claims I have read about over the years.


Not that ambitious, besides hurting my arms, setting up a couple cement blocks and a large plastic box to catch acid isn't tough, mainly irritating and time consuming. The Hazardous waste place is nearby and can take battery acid if I fail.

Next There is no dream cure, every battery fails differently, some just fall apart and short out. Trojans tend to get sulphated and can usually be brought back nearly 100% one time (assuming they fail from excessive discharge and sulphation) However if the sulphation damages a separator nothing short of physically taking apart the battery will fix it, something I won't do (at least yet) I am willing to dump the acid and save it, then charge with distilled water while pulsing, which I will test once I get jugs and containers in place. First though my set has to desulphate several months to bring back the acid strength a bit. I am looking for a cheap and safe way of ordering concentrated sulphuric acid the reconstitute the acid once the batteries are ready.

Remember though I still plan on getting another PROPER set, this first set of mine is dear to my heart and amazed me (given the level of abuse it took) and since I have it I figure I will take a few at a time and do tests, if they work afterword I will know what to do in the future (and with the rest of the string), if not I'm not really out much money, acid might cost $20 to reconstitute.

Also my batteries have been revived more than a few times, shortly after the 1st bout of EDTA treatment my car had a range of 50 miles at 35mph, which I believe is fully restored. The consequent range reductions are from the electrolite being diluted with snow/rain water and from my main charger dying allowing the batteries to not get properly charged up over 2 months which started the downward cycle. Desulphation still brings back the old batteries but less each time, 3 of them are spent from getting discharged too low, too many times but I will give them a shot anyway at least on the desulphator. Might be out a dollar or two of effort/electric on them if they fail. I also will be out the edta pills I take and the soap/baking soda 

All the batteries, oddly still take and give good amps just don't charge up to where they should be.

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## Thubbadubba (Mar 2, 2013)

My take on this: DO use desulfators

> My take on this: DO NOT USE DESULFATORS.

Stuntdriver, this looks like an important issue for folks on this forum, thus I take this opportunity to offer an alternate view.

I am impressed at the way you approached your testing. Wish more people did this before they started sharing their results.

It is my opinion that desulfators vary in efficacy. I think it would be educational to gather a few different models and compare their wave form and frequency on an oscilloscope. If the frequency is off you will not have good results. And batteries vary- have no idea why it appears that the desulfator damaged your battery, there may be variables here that we haven't accounted for.

I have used desulfators for years. Think I have only used two models. Sorry, I don't have it readily at hand so I can't tell you what models I have.

My nephew has a motorcycle shop. His techs aren't really good about keeping batteries charged. He experiences a lot of battery failures because of sulfation. I periodically stop by the shop and carry a buncha batteries home, I then apply my desulfator to a group at a time. They seem to function perfectly when I return them to him. I have not done exhaustive testing to determine just how much of original capacity is restored.

I have brought back innumerable auto batteries with my desulfators (Caveat: not worn out batteries, but batteries that were good until they were allowed to sit in a discharged state). I was driving through a neighborhood near my home and saw that a fella had set several deep cycle batteries out at the curb. He was working outside so I asked about them. He said (in response to my probing and astute questions) that the batteries had failed after sitting discharged a long time. I took them home and they all came back just fine. I have several deep cycle batteries now for my trolling motor!

A friend brought by an expensive Yellow Top off-road battery. It had never been used but had sat for several years. It would NOT take a charge at all. My chargers registered zero (0) amps. I put the desulfator on there for a month or two and it is now in service and acts like new.

I have never done any controlled tests to see if these devices damage batteries, though I have seen no evidence of it.

Some folks who sell desulfators say that for best results you should have the desulfator on there during some discharging, and also while charging. he claims that it allows the desulfator to work on each plate-type at a time. Another fella claims that while desulfating you should trickle charge the battery for 12 hours, then let it sit for 12 hours, continue for a month or more and the battery should be good. I have several solar electric panels. I hook the battery up to a 15 watt panel or a 100 watt, each with a charge controller, and let them run that way for a while depending on the size of battery, etc. Works for me just fine.

Many new expensive RVs come with the power converter equipped with a desulfator in the charging circuit.


----------



## quickcharge (Aug 15, 2009)

Just use any charger with a float/maintainer circuit, and you'll never get to hard sulfation, thus eliminating the need for another device.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

quickcharge said:


> Just use any charger with a float/maintainer circuit, and you'll never get to hard sulfation, thus eliminating the need for another device.


Drive to work. Park with a partially discharge pack, drive home and charge. There's a good 8+ hours there with the pack at a sulfating voltage.

Not digging deep into the DOD, preventing sulphation, keeping up on water, and not dogging the lead with high current and they last a long time in relation to their cost. ..they take a lot of care though. My local MNEAA club has a member that was over 40,000 miles on a lead pack. He could drive both ways off a charge without getting below 50% which is the normal convention but he has the opportunity to charge at work so they never went below 25% SOC. At least when they were new. After the 40,000 mile mark, using the heater and getting extra peukert losses and some capacity loss made the trip dig too deep into the SOC. This was about this time last year that I heard of the issues cropping, I'm sure the pack has been replaced by now but I think he was half a decade on that pack.


----------

