# EV Conversion - Manual or Automatic



## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

HI Guys

Ive been arounf here for a while but I was just wondering that if I wanted to build another conversion, would it be better to go for car with an Auto Transmittion. 

Ive been thinking that it would be easier for the electric motor to change through the gears. 

thanks

m xx


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## IchibahnSLC (May 22, 2015)

I know that automatic transmissions need pressure in the fluid system and they get that during idle. I suppose if you could get the motor to idle at 5-750 rpm it would be the same. This can be achieved via some controllers. I personally think manual is just easier.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Using an 8" in an 885 kilo car 2nd & 4th are all you need. No clutch.


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## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

I have just been thinking that its a pain in the arse trying to change gears without a clutch because you will crunch the gears and f up the gearbox. 

With an automatic no crunching etc. I didnt know that autos use an idle pump so that might be something I need to look at.


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

I think its easier to decide what car you want to drive...that way, you know the driving style of the car(sporty or comfort). 
either way, if saving weight means something to you, go with powerglide. it is 2gear and auto!


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

No, manual changes are easy, just slightly slower. When you move to neutral the motor slows quicker than an ICE {i assume) and the next gear slides in easily. At first it is hard to remember to completely let the accelerator pedal up. If you want to play boy racer, then use a clutch.


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## Roderick (Dec 8, 2013)

poprock said:


> No, manual changes are easy, just slightly slower. When you move to neutral the motor slows quicker than an ICE {i assume) and the next gear slides in easily. At first it is hard to remember to completely let the accelerator pedal up. If you want to play boy racer, then use a clutch.


I agree that manual is easy to convert. But, how fast the motor slows down depends on the coupler setup.(heavier the flywheel, longer it takes).
2l V6 Ice generally has more friction than the same setup with motor but I believe 4 cylinder ice might be less...again depends on their condition. 


phoenixmuj> just pick the car you want to spend time converting and riding. (trans swap is not too costly and there are alot of good 2nd hand trans around)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Or the other alternative
use a decent sized motor and go direct to the diff

This eliminates the gearbox completely and may enable you to put the motor where the gearbox should be and use the entire engine bay for batteries


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## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

I'm going to use a Alfa 156 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Alfa_Romeo_156_front_20080303.jpg

This is a heavy car, i know but I am so much in love with this car. My equipment is: 

Motor: ADC FB1-4001
Controler: Curtis 1231C
Battery Bank: still working on it but i think im going to pull a reconditioned one out of a prius and bring it down to 144vdc. (I think they are like 205vdc)


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Forget the Prius batteries - go for Leaf or Volt,

Transverse engine front wheel drive - not an easy conversion - have you got enough length for your motor?

If I wanted to convert one of those (Alpha's are nice) I would be thinking about finding a crashed Leaf and trying to put the entire drive train in - just make up driveshafts that go from the leaf final drive to your CV joints


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## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

Why the Leaf or Volt battery packs?? 

yea there is lots of room for the motor. Already half converted on a few years back but got into some issues and had to park it up and it went all mouldy inside. Time for a new alfa minus the mould. lol


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

phoenixmuj said:


> Why the Leaf or Volt battery packs??...


It has to do with the design of the battery cells themselves. Hybrid batteries are designed to be small and move energy in and out fast, thus they have many lightweight components in them. They never really get run down to very low or very high voltages, compared to nominal voltage.

The Leaf and Volt packs are more heavy duty and built for deep cycling. They will survive sitting at near 100% charge and will drain down lower than a hybrid car's battery without damage.

TLDR:
HEV batteries are much like SLI lead acids.
PEV/PHEV batteries are more like deep cycles.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Auto transmissions are big and lossy. They're heavy and they waste energy even when you're moving and especially if you need to keep an artificial idle that is unnatural and otherwise unnecessary in an EV. Whether you're doing the conversion to have an energy efficient car or a performance toy, stick with a manual transmission.

As to direct drive- great, if you have a motor and controller and batteries capable of generating both the torque and speed necessary to be satisfied with the result (and a differential of the right gear ratio). Too many who go this way have to make an unsatisfactory compromise on either acceleration or top speed. A manual gearbox is cheap insurance against poor design decisions and provides easy adjustability for driving conditions as well as some "fun factor". But direct drive meets some people's objectives too, so to each their own.

The clutch is optional, as long as you have a means to defeat regen if you have an AC system. I was suspicious and am glad I kept mine, but I've seen lots of satisfied clutchless shifters here and there are no gears grinding.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Greetings everyone. I rarely post anymore, but I felt I needed to chime in on this subject.

My car weighs 1,900LBS. My pack is 38 130AH lithium cells. I live in a flat area with few up/dn grades. I have driven it in both transmission and direct drive modes. (Many thousands of miles in each) 

I have owned three EV's in my lifetime. Two were factory cars and one was scratch built, frame up. (Over a period of 15 years) 

This is my personal opinion:

-I would never direct drive any vehicle over 2,000LBS. 

-I would never direct drive anything if I lived in a mountainous region.

-I would never build a system that "Idles" the motor to drive accessories.

-In my car, I get 8-10 more miles when in direct drive over a transmission.
( straight direct drive VS a powerglide that was directly coupled)

Miz


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## theguyed (Dec 4, 2010)

I am converting a 2008 Minivan so it will be automatic.
If i had the choice between Manual, Auto, Direct Drive and CVT
The problem i have with direct drive in my leaf is it does not do well in anything under 20 or over 45.
The CVT seems to be the key.
I am currently looking to replace the auto in the van with a later model CVT, if possible.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Recently I asked the question about using a cvt and the replies were strongly against it.Too weak


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Modern CVT's will drag around a 3,500LB vehicle, so I believe they are up to the task. I also believe they need to be matched to the torque curve of the motor powering them. This is done by a small computer. That alone would make them very difficult to make work to a satisfactory level in an EV.

It would be easier to use a common snowmobile torque converter as they just use springs to adjust them. Even those transmit up to 100HP. But they are matched to a motor with a broad RPM range, which an electric motor will struggle to match.

If you want a reliable transportation vehicle, stick to a common transmission. An automatic or stick. Both have been done, but the stick transmission has the lead in ease of installation and mileage.

Miz


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Which points you back to a 5 speed manual. If you want you can pretend you have direct drive by taking off in 4th gear when surface is suitable.( with ample motor cooling of course )


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

True, modern 5 speeds are aheaper, lighter and strong enough. A plus.
miz


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

mizlplix said:


> -In my car, I get 8-10 more miles when in direct drive over a transmission.
> ( straight direct drive VS a powerglide that was directly coupled)


I found this statement interesting. In a typical car you get about 85% of the power in the ICE delivered to the wheels. About 4 to 5% of this is in the differential and about 8 to 10% is in the transmission. A little bit is lost in the tires. How does your 8-10 miles relate to your total range? Is this an increase of 8 to 10%? A part of this would be due to the weight savings of not hauling around a transmission. My 5 speed manual without gear oil was about 72 lbs. Automatic transmissions are probably closer to 125 lbs.


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Doug: No explaination other than my powerglide weighs about 85#, when in low, the planetaries create a lot of the heat so that would mean drag, when in any forward gear, the reverse clutches and steels turn backwards causing some drag also. 

I only noticed this drag when going from a transmission to a direct drive set up. In direct drive, when the throttle was lifted, the car would glide on with a very minor slowing. When it had a transmission, even in high (direct), when the throttle was lifted it would noticeably slow down. 

In some of my early posts in my car build, I even remark about "why it does not seem to roll freely" when the throttle was lifted. I had thought the regen was being applied, but it was not.

Under applied power, the car rolls easily, when coasting it slowed a lot. My only thought for this is it is the front charge pump drag. With no motor power applied, it really shows up. (my system pressure is 150PSI.)


Miz


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## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

HI Guys, 

Sorry I have not posted a reply. Works been mad! anyways, if I am to replace the ICE with an electric motor, can I still reconnect the clutch plate inside the gearbox between the motor and gearbox just as it would be on the normal ICE, or does it need something extra for the clutch pedal to work in the same way.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

phoenixmuj said:


> if I am to replace the ICE with an electric motor, can I still reconnect the clutch plate inside the gearbox between the motor and gearbox just as it would be on the normal ICE, or does it need something extra for the clutch pedal to work in the same way.


Yes. The way everyone does it is to attach the flywheel to the motor shaft. Sometimes people remove the ring gear to save a little weight. Sometimes they machine off a lot of weight. Sometimes they replace the flywheel with a lightweight aluminum one as is used in racing and remove the ring gear. The one thing you need to do is make certain the friction surface ends up in the same place as it was on the ICE. In the literature this is called the magic number. If you buy an adaptor kit for your motor and transmission this has been handled for you.


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## phoenixmuj (Oct 8, 2015)

Thank you. how would I go about getting this kit??


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

phoenixmuj said:


> Thank you. how would I go about getting this kit??


If you look over to the right of this page you will find sponsors. Check with them to find out if an adapter exists for the conversion you are planning on.

There are plenty of places that will sell you stuff like this. If you know a machinist you could have one custom made.


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## Baratong (Nov 29, 2012)

I got my manual transmission adapter kit from CAN EV. If you look around, quite a few of the vendors that sell manual conversion adapters are re-selling CAN EV's product. 

One thing to take note of if you go with a manual -- A lot of flywheels are not evenly balanced, they are balanced to offset the ICE they were designed for. So if you take an ICE flywheel and put it on your electric motor, you should check the balance of the flywheel. I had to take mine to a machine shop and have them evenly balance it... while they were at it I had them knock off the ring gear and take a couple pounds off the flywheel.


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## arcturus (Sep 23, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Or the other alternative
> use a decent sized motor and go direct to the diff
> 
> This eliminates the gearbox completely and may enable you to put the motor where the gearbox should be and use the entire engine bay for batteries


hello Duncan, i have been reading about how to convert an automatica transmission car to an ev. I now this post is old but i would like to have your opinion about. I have the project to convert an automatic van and i would like to decide how to do that. I've been reading about a torque reductor but are quite expensive and i read that for a van and direct drive i have to use two motors in series. I supouse that a DC system would be the ideal one but i woul like to have some ideas and opinions from an expert, can you give me some advice?


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

arcturus said:


> I have the project to convert an automatic van and i would like to decide how to do that.


I would dump the automatic gearbox and fit an electric drivetrain with a single speed transmission and differential.

Here's why;


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## arcturus (Sep 23, 2016)

Kevin Sharpe said:


> I would dump the automatic gearbox and fit an electric drivetrain with a single speed transmission and differential.
> 
> Here's why;


thank you very much Kevin. I will evaluate the way to use a standard transmission. And, what do you think about direct drive? The idea is to use the van as a mini school bus


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## Kevin Sharpe (Jul 4, 2011)

arcturus said:


> And, what do you think about direct drive? The idea is to use the van as a mini school bus


If your van is modern then I'd suggest using a motor with transaxle such as that found on the Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S/X, or even the older Ford (AZD) Transit.


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