# Any use for the Highlander rear diff/motor?



## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> They are:
> -50kw(68hp) from 4,610-5,120 rpm
> -96 lb ft of torque from 0-610 rpm.
> -Gear reduction of 6.86/1
> ...


If you can find somebody to rewind the motor for you, it should be possible to run the motor/diff at lower voltages, where the Aussie controller will certainly be able to handle it. There was a bit of discussion in another thread (here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...m-motor-questions-feel-free-join-42675p8.html) and one thing that did surface was an unwillingness of rewinders to do these jobs. If you can find somebody willing to rewind the motor to a lower voltage, there are some guys here who would like to know, so please do not forget about them 

Regards
Dawid


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> They are:
> -50kw(68hp) from 4,610-5,120 rpm
> 
> And they cost sub $1k from Car-part.com all day long.


Do you have any more info? Maybe a part number to search for? Picture?

I feel like this might be a great find. Especially with a new HV AC motor controller available. Thanks for sharing

($1k puts it within my "buy it and try it" range, if a guinea pig is still needed)


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> Do you have any more info? Maybe a part number to search for? Picture?
> 
> I feel like this might be a great find. Especially with a new HV AC motor controller available. Thanks for sharing
> 
> ($1k puts it within my "buy it and try it" range, if a guinea pig is still needed)


OK-Go to http://Car-part.com
Enter the following in the appropriate slots:
-Year: 2007
-Vehicle: Toyota Highlander
-Part: engine
-Leave it on: "All Areas/Select an Area"
-Sort it by whatever method you prefer (distance, price, etc...)
-Enter your postal code
-Press enter.

This brings you to the engine selection page. Click on the one that says:
"Hybrid, elec, Rr (4WD) "

This should give you an ocean of results. I just did this search and found them as low as $450.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

It would be sooooo easy to mount that.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> This should give you an ocean of results. I just did this search and found them as low as $450.


Wow thanks for the detailed info. I tried some other options but couldn't find them....I'm going to look at these very seriously


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Here is where I got most of my information. The rear diff motor is called the "Motor Generator Rear" (MGR)


http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/2010_Highlander_Hybrid_Product_Info.pdf

Some other random googling found me the voltage range the motor typically saw.


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

At 5k RPM and the given diff ratio it would spin the wheel at ~730 RPM.
This is OK, if you have huuuge wheel like the Highlander has, but for normal car conversions it's a bit too slow. (I'm living in Germany with non speedlimit highways  )
I also expect the motor rev's much less than 5k at only 350V...

On Car parts are also some Lexus diffs to buy. I wonder if their diff ratio is different?!
But definitely a nice find 
-Olaf


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Olaf-Lampe said:


> I also expect the motor rev's much less than 5k at only 350V...
> 
> -Olaf


The tech specs from the 2010 highlander PDF linked to above states a nominal voltage of 288v of NiMh

Edit...

You're absolutely right, the nominal voltage is 288v but there is a "inverter/converter" unit that bumps it up to 650v for the motors.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

AmpEater said:


> there is a "inverter/converter" unit that bumps it up to 650v for the motors.


Maybe the inverter is available from wrecks too.


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> Maybe the inverter is available from wrecks too.


It is. ebay finds a few for around $1000. 

But the catch is it's an integrated unit that actually controls two separate motors. The rear is the smaller of the two, with the front actually rated impressively (from memory, something like 100-150kw and >150hp).

I've been pondering what it might take to trick one into operating purely as an EV. Probably not a whole lot, but I suspect much of it isn't readily available (but I'm not the best researcher either....)

I did see that the highlander has an "EV mode". I didn't catch the range or maximum speed, if it was listed at all.

It looks like the highlander hybrid might actually make a very nice "plug-in hybrid" conversion. It already has two powerful AC motors, AWD regen, etc...and it's 288v nominal voltage lends itself to add-on packs. The Manzanita Micro PFC-40HM charger would be capable of feeding a constant 40a @ 288v (11.5kwh/hr)....so assuming a 250wh/mi figure you could travel abut 46mph at a steady speed as long as you're auxiliary pack held out, with bursts and regen handled by the already present 288v NiMh.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Hmmmm, some as low as $450 with only 21k miles...

Seems powerful enough for a small direct drive vehicle, where the high drive ratio would be an advantage. Might make for a good "starter EV" if you can get the right controller or make a pack with higher voltage.

Controllers listed under "Power Inverter." I think.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Hmmm, That is a pretty cheap 100kW power section for a 3 phase motor. Perhaps it can be hijacked and given its own control board. Then try stuffing the power from the larger controller into the smaller rear drive assembly. You'll know its turned up to much when something breaks


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Hmmm, That is a pretty cheap 100kW power section for a 3 phase motor. Perhaps it can be hijacked and given its own control board. Then try stuffing the power from the larger controller into the smaller rear drive assembly. You'll know its turned up to much when something breaks


Yeah, now that you mention it, it is one helluva bargain. 

But, it's also a $1000 brick waiting for me to apply power to the wrong pin. At least as an OEM module it's guaranteed to be fairly tough. Full EMF shielding and all that jazz.

One could potentially be used to power both a front, and rear mounted "rear module" in an AWD car. 

Anyone have any idea about what signals it is likely to require/expect? Likely to be all CAN-based?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Olaf-Lampe said:


> At 5k RPM and the given diff ratio it would spin the wheel at ~730 RPM.
> This is OK, if you have huuuge wheel like the Highlander has, but for normal car conversions it's a bit too slow. (I'm living in Germany with non speedlimit highways  )
> I also expect the motor rev's much less than 5k at only 350V...


With a little basic math (Taking a P184/70 R14 wheel/tyre, as used on a Chevy Corsica, for an example) that would give you a best-case max speed of 84KM/h, or 52MPH (Complete calculator from wheel/tyre size to final top speed here). Rather slow indeed, though good for a cheap powerhouse for a NEV.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

What is the maximum rpm of the rear motor? I'm pretty sure it quite a bit higher than 5120 rpm. How fast does the power decline above 5120 rpm? I know that with series wound motors power falls off slow enough to have useable power well above peak power.


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

EVfun said:


> What is the maximum rpm of the rear motor? I'm pretty sure it quite a bit higher than 5120 rpm. How fast does the power decline above 5120 rpm? I know that with series wound motors power falls off slow enough to have useable power well above peak power.


The hook with synchron motors is: they have a fixed kV. You'll need the 650V to make it spin 5120rpm and more volt to spin faster. Permanent mag motors usually have lower max RPM ratings than asynchron motors due to centrifugal forces on the magnets. I expect a physical max of 6k rpm for this one. ( wild guessing tho )

You also must be very careful to overrate PM motors, you can easily overheat the magnets
-Olaf


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/rx_400h_heading.html

That article claims 10,752 rpm max for the rear motor.


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Specs seem to be

Electric rear motor Power ([email protected]) [email protected]
Torque ([email protected]) [email protected]
Maximum (rpm) 10,752
Maximum voltage (v) 650


Two sources mention (2) Rx400h and a 2010 Highlander hybrid



from:
http://www.reviewcentre.com/cars430.html

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/document/2010_Highlander_Hybrid_Product_Info.pdf
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/rx_400h_heading.html


Question is, can anything be done with it?


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Tritium is Australia has a new AC controller that should handle this. Downside is it only go to 450V, so I guess you lose about a third of your power if you cannot get it rewound for a lower voltage. If you know a friendly rewinder, it will be worth your while.

Dawid


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

A 6000 $AUD, 150kw capable controller for use with a 50kw 1000$USD motor??


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## AmpEater (Mar 10, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> A 6000 $AUD, 150kw capable controller for use with a 50kw 1000$USD motor??


Price and value are not the same thing


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## Sutitan (Feb 23, 2009)

Motor is 450 for less than 60 miles away.

However, I cannot justify that controller. Also, a boost converter might cost a bit too, however, if I did consider the AC option, id probably just build a 450v pack


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## Olaf-Lampe (Feb 24, 2010)

At least it's almost impossible to kill the inverter with such a 'small' load. At peak load it wouldn't draw more than 80A.
Someone should buy one and look inside. It's not easy to disassemble a PM-motor, but maybe he would only need to rewire the coils from serial to parallel or from wye to delta. That would raise kV a lot ( same RPM with less V )
If it's not possible, resell it again 
-Olaf


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

AmpEater said:


> Price and value are not the same thing


I think the use of the toyota differential is creative and a great idea....I just do not see value in under utilizing a 150kw capable controller/inverter for 50kw peak use, but I guess that is just me...


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm new to this so someone should check my logic, but here's how I see it:

For BLDC motors (that's what this is, right?), if the controller can provide enough power, they will make constant torque up to max rpm, so that's where max power will occur.

If one were to use the tritium controller and the motor revs to 10752 at 650 V, then at 450 V, it would rev to 450/650*10752 = 7543 rpm. With 6.86:1 diff and typical tire size, that's 75-80 mph, so more than enough.

Ignoring controller/motor loss, 50kW @ 4610 rpm (3279V) requires 179A because 50,000W/(650V*4610rpm/10752rpm) = 179A. My guess is this is peak power because the batter pack is only 288V so above this, full current can't be supplied... or something. Also, the pack is only rated for 45kW, so it makes sense that it can't keep supplying current beyond about this voltage.

For a sanity check, 50,000W/(4610rpm*2pi/60) = 104N*m (76lb-ft), so pretty close to constant torque all the way from max of 96lb-ft at 0 rpm.

With 180A up to 450V, the motor's power should increase to about 80kW without too much more stress than its OEM application, right? Also, the tritium controller only supplies 300A max so it's not a complete waste, but not a perfect match either. Plus I imagine the motor could be pushed beyond 180A for short periods.


Even if this is correct, this motor/controller/diff combo would only work for a very small car. Max wheel torque would be 96lb-ft*6.86 = 659lb-ft. A Subaru Justy 2wd in 1st gear with the smallest engine available puts up to 804lb-ft to the wheels ignoring losses: 59lb-ft*3.071*4.437 = 804lb-ft. A typical compact car, say a mid 90's impreza, sends to the wheels 110lb-ft*3.785*4.11 = 1711lb-ft.

I don't know what I've decided from all this, maybe just use the diff with a better motor since the size and ratio seem well suited to EMs.

I seem to be on a different page than a few others here, so feedback would be appreciated.


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Bringing this back to the top... Based on Corbin's thread, I'm optimistic that quite a bit less than max torque will be enough to get up a 5-6% grade as long as the car isn't too heavy. I would also worry about steeper hills in the city since there would be no way to gear down (I live in seattle), but I figure it can probably take a bit more current for short periods than toyota rates it for.

So the point is, I'd be ready to buy this motor/diff and the tritium controller if I had some reasurrance that these figure were in the ballpark. Also, the tritium controller requires 3 hall effect position sensors, could I expect these to be built into the motor? If not can I add them myself? Is there a chance of a 100k NTC thermistor being in the motor somewhere or is there some place I could add one that would give a reasonable estimate of when the motor is about to fry?

Finally, if these questions make it obvious that I shouldn't dive in, somebody please tell me that too. I'm hoping that the tritium line is plug and play enough for me to get going then learn the details and customize things as I go along.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Googling around on the Highlander MGR, I found a picture of one opened. Look near the bottom of this page:
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Reference/CVT_Transmissions.htm


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GerhardRP said:


> Googling around on the Highlander MGR, I found a picture of one opened. Look near the bottom of this page:
> http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Reference/CVT_Transmissions.htm


Cool  You think they could have put more copper in there? And do you know if it is liquid cooled?

Thanks,

major


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

So I actually bought one. It's not liquid cooled, but there is a drain plug that leads to the compartment in those pictures, so I suspect there's oil in there which would greatly improve heat transfer to the casing. The is also suggested by the open bearing. I guess I could pull the plug and look, but I don't see any reason just yet.

The main sticking point so far, aside from unknown torque capability and Kv, is that there are no hall effect position sensors, instead a resolver. James at Tritium has been very easy to work with and has suggested that if I can get him the operating frequency and primary:secondary turn ratio for the resolver he would buy one and build this capability into the next revision of their controller. Sounds like work on this would start in a month or two. I'm planning to use an audio frequency generator for my computer and an oscilloscope tomorrow or this weekend to sort out these parameters. Any suggestions for how to do this would be greatly appreciated. I have no experience with electronics, but an EE here at work said this strategy would more or less work.

The backup plan is taking the thing apart, removing the resolver, and shipping it to Australia.

Does anyone know an engineer that works for Toyota?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ryan800 said:


> So I actually bought one.


Double cool 

Without the liquid cooling, I wonder how useful it would be for an EV application. But it looks like a really solid machine 



> The main sticking point so far, aside from unknown torque capability and Kv, is that there are no hall effect position sensors, instead a resolver.


I know they make a reslover to encoder converter. Don't know if that would be of any use. I thought this would be a PMSM. In which case, I am not sure the converter gives you the Z marker. I'll see if I can get the info on that.

BTW, I have run BLDC machines in V/f mode open loop. Not saying this would be worth a crap for a traction motor. But if you put an inverter to it at a set frequency, it rotates smoothly, you can pull a wave form off the resolver and, I think, pretty much determine its characteristics.

Yeah, a long shot, but WTH.

major


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm just hoping I get to find out about the cooling issue. If it becomes a problem, I think I can find solutions, maybe welding up more fins or coolant pipes between the fins.

Isn't this a PMSM? It has permanent magnets on the rotor that are supposed to be in synch with the field... I guess I don't totally know the difference between that and BLDC.

Anyway, I don't think I even have to rotate the motor much to characterize the resolver. My understanding is that a resolver is basically a transformer with 2 secondary coils at 90deg and a rotating primary coil. Thus, 10khz should give plenty of resolution even at 10k rpm which would be 60 small peaks per broad peak (broad peak = 1 rotation), I just need to make sure that this isn't too low a frequency, which would require too much current to induce any voltage in the secondary, thus frying the thing, or that it isn't too high which would create too much impedance to create the signal. I can then turn the motor by hand and look for the peak voltage in the secondary to figure out the turn ratio. I am planning to watch the input signal and one of the output signals with the oscilloscope, would there be a need to watch the output signals simultaneously?

Not sure how I will measure current, but basically I'm figuring if I can get a clear signal at 10kHz with the headphone jack, then that's what I'll call the operating frequency.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ryan800 said:


> I can then turn the motor by hand and look for the peak voltage in the secondary to figure out the turn ratio. I am planning to watch the input signal and one of the output signals with the oscilloscope, would there be a need to watch the output signals simultaneously?


O.K. Where do you get position? 

I'll tell you. I got no idea what Toyota uses for a control. But if there are PMs on the rotor, I think they need position. But maybe for a rear end boost, maybe they don't.

Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to learn about resolvers. I've been like dancing around them for years. And using encoders. I figured one of these days, I would have to deal with the buggers. 

major


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Sorry, that was just to get a few characteristics of the resolver to send to Tritium to help them work the capability into their next controller.

The resolver does indeed give position as a function of the ratio of the two output voltages, which are in quadrature due to their mount position. I assume that the controller will, as part of its setup run, send a signal to the resolver while sending a slow drive signal to the motor. By watching the output signal of the resolver, it would determine whatever it needs to about the motor. I think it does the same thing with hall sensors in its current configuration, just doesn't have the capability to drive a resolver.

I hope that it doesn't matter that the resolver doesn't sense magnet position directly and that as long as they know the angle of the rotor they can figure all they need to with their setup routine.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Ryan800 said:


> I hope that it doesn't matter that the resolver doesn't sense magnet position directly and that as long as they know the angle of the rotor they can figure all they need to with their setup routine.


Yeah,

I hope so too 

major


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

If the motor portion of the case actually carries fluid, it wouldn't be hard to add a small cooling loop. A couple of fittings in the housing, some hoses, a small radiator, and a pump and you would be set. 

It looks like there is a little ATF colored fluid sitting in the center of the the housing in the far right pic.


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Thank you for the suggestion, that would be much more effective, I'll look into it when the time comes. The controller is also water cooled and it doesn't seem atf would hurt it, so maybe I can put them in the same loop.

There's also a thermistor inbedded in the windings, so I'll figure out the type and constants at some point so I should be able to monitor temperature pretty well and figure out if I need to do anything at all.

FYI if you save those pictures then open them they have pretty high resolution... which is maybe obvious but just thought I'd point it out. Looks like 8 poles, maybe there's other info there. I have the pinout too if anyone wants it, although it's not very useful without thermistor and resolver parameters.


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

Ryan800 said:


> I'm just hoping I get to find out about the cooling issue. If it becomes a problem, I think I can find solutions, maybe welding up more fins or coolant pipes between the fins.
> 
> Isn't this a PMSM? It has permanent magnets on the rotor that are supposed to be in synch with the field... I guess I don't totally know the difference between that and BLDC.


I don't think motor cooling will be a difficult problem. Because this motor has permanent magnets in the rotor, it runs synchronously so there are no iron losses in the the rotor. All the heat is generated in the stator which is presumably thermally coupled to the case.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

I finally got an Rx400H MGR down under here Ryan, not sure I've got the necessary smarts or pocket depth to do much with it but I got it past AQUIS which is an achievement in itself!


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Nice! I haven't written much about my project yet since I don't have much substance to report at this point, but controller, batteries, and charger should be here in a few weeks, so hopefully progress will be a little quicker after that.

I'll definitely post when I have an idea of the torque, speed, and heat dissipation capability of the motor.

Do you have a car in mind? My saturn sw came in a bit under 1900 lbs/ 860kg with the IC components out, so I think with the electric stuff and 6.5kwh of headways it will be around 2200 lbs. I think the motor will handle that fine, but I have some concerns about how many more batteries it will lug around.

-Ryan


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

I've been sniffing around 1998 model toyota Celicas Ryan, ready availability in the used car market & under 1000kg as an EV. There are some smaller alternatives but sharing the road with 2 tonne SUVs in a modified suzuki cappuccino scares the daylights out of me.
Sounds like I'm 6 to 12 months behind you progress wise, but it's good to have a pathfinder.
I can't help dreaming about what it would be like to have 2 of these puppies in a vehicle for a nice AWD EV but that's getting seriously ahead of myself.
Hope your conversion goes well. It's a big project, hope I've got the where with all to pull it off.


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## altimahybrid (May 10, 2012)

I have an interesting idea for the Highlander rear diff/motor - can it be installed into an existing FWD hybrid? This could allow for AWD capability as well as improved performance (more torque and HP overall). 

For example, I have an Altima Hybrid, but any FWD hybrid could be a potential use case, such as the Camry Hybrid or Prius.


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

altimahybrid said:


> I have an interesting idea for the Highlander rear diff/motor - can it be installed into an existing FWD hybrid? This could allow for AWD capability as well as improved performance (more torque and HP overall).
> 
> For example, I have an Altima Hybrid, but any FWD hybrid could be a potential use case, such as the Camry Hybrid or Prius.


I think so.

Thanks for bumping this thread up. I would like to get my hands on one of these. I am having some success controlling the Prius Transaxle and I would assume this motor is similar but I like the package.

It is possible it may not have resolvers for position feedback if it is only for torque boost once rolling. It is pretty easy to maintain sync using the back emf once the motor is spinning for these types of motors. Getting low end torque control would benefit from resolver position feedback.

I skimmed through the thread quickly so I probably missed many specs.

Thanks
Jeff


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

This would make a very expensive way to add awd to your car unless you plan to build your own controller. It would also take a lot of fab work, unless you choose a car the already has an awd trim and there happens to be space for this motor without moving the fuel tank. The bulk of the motor sits forward of the axle. It goes in reverse, but lifetime might be reduced due to poor lubrication.

JDD, it does have a resolver. And a thermistor. I'm running it at 90Arms max right now and it pulls my 2300lb car around, but starts and hills are very slow. I'm not sure how much more you would want to put through it, I think OEM application runs 60-80Arms max.

How difficult is it to remove the extra stuff from the front transaxle? I haven't tried yet, but I think that's your better bet. Also, it seems more convenient to use a lower voltage hybrid (Fords operate around 300V).


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

Ryan,

So you have this pushing your car. I haven't found anyone else using toyota motors. This is exciting for me and I would like to share some experience with you since I don't fully understand everything that I am experiencing.

I have been working with a prius transaxle that I got as junk from a local shop. I assume the internals are extremely similar if not identical with yours. I got it to push my car around the block using 4 old 12volt lead acid batteries. It has been quite a learning process for me.

What inverter are you using? I am using the gen1 prius and my own PWM controller.

I seem to have had some torque issues but discovered that advancing my commutation angle by 30 degrees gave me a lot lot more starting torque. I since read on line that this is due to the reluctance of the rotor.

Are you having to compensate for this torque vector interaction? Are you implementing any type of Max Torque Min Current algorithm?

I hope to have my motor back in my car very soon for more testing. I have 48 lithium cells that I am going to start out with and then scale up from there in voltage.

Best Regards
Jeff


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Jeff, I'm using the Tritium controller, so I haven't actually worked with the control algorithm. I have learned a few things though and I have lots more issues to work though. I'll PM you with more details.

The reports by Oak Ridge National Lab on the Toyota hybrid system are interesting to read - google "ornl toyota". I didn't see anything specific about the 2003 prius motor, but the newer camry system was measured and peak torque occurs at 35 degrees.


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## jddcircuit (Mar 18, 2010)

Ryan800 said:


> Jeff, I'm using the Tritium controller, so I haven't actually worked with the control algorithm. I have learned a few things though and I have lots more issues to work though. I'll PM you with more details.
> 
> The reports by Oak Ridge National Lab on the Toyota hybrid system are interesting to read - google "ornl toyota". I didn't see anything specific about the 2003 prius motor, but the newer camry system was measured and peak torque occurs at 35 degrees.


I stumbled across the offset by trial and error wondering why I wasn't seeing the performance I expected. I think that might be the report I read that pointed out the 35 degree offset which explained my observations.

I am using the Prius inverter with an Arduino control board and a Resolver to Digital demo kit board. I don't have the phase current control working yet but it is on my long list of issues.

I am very interested in your details.

Thanks
jeff


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Greetings Guys. Just a quick update for you Ryan on my transaxle. Tritium won't sell me the HV version of their wavesculptor & I figure I need 650v DC to get decent torque. I might have found a commercial VFD that can do the job, supposed to be driving up to Brisbane later this month to check it out.

Just a quick question re the original DC voltage applied to this motor in the Lexus. The Lexus batteries are listed as 288v with a voltage doubler between them & the motor. Does that mean the DC supply to it was actually 2 x 288 = 576v?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

No, the DC/DC converter more than doubles the voltage to the controller, to as much as 650V (I think the output voltage is actually variable depending on need, but I could be wrong). 500V max in early Prius models.

Be careful though. The full 650V will give you more torque at higher rpm, but it won't increase the low speed maximum torque. You have to run more amps through the motor to do that, which at some point will demagnetize the magnets. Tritium will supply up to 360Arms, so that's not the problem. I have it limited to 80Arms right now, and it's slow. And my car only weights 2300lbs/1050kg. I could increase that, especially in winter, but I hate to find the motor's limit the hard way. Maybe 100A would be fine, but if not I've just ruined my motor. remember that it's only rated at 100ft-lb, which is not much starting torque with 6.8:1 ratio.

Basically, it's a neighborhood vehicle until I get a bigger motor in there. I know you spent a lot to get that motor over there, but maybe Ford sells hybrids there? Those are designed for 300V and good power, so they're a good match for the Tritium. You just have to remove the extras.

One last warning is make sure the controller you buy is compatible with IPM motors. I'm discovering that they're a little trickier than induction or surface mounted PM motors.

That said if the price works out and you're ok with sluggish performance, go for it!


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Thanks for the wise words Ryan, TJ said he thought this motor was a pup after he tested it & I should have realised before now that starting torque wouldn't improve with the higher voltage. Plus coming up with a 650v battery pack & BMS was proving to be hard as well.
Better I quit now while I'm only $1k down than throw more money at this pipe dream. A mate of mine is buying himself a Leaf, I might do likewise & be done with it if his goes as well as it sounds.
Is your Saturn really that much of a slug? 100ftlb pulling 2300lb is 23lb/ftlb while the Leaf has 207 ftlb for 3500lb or 17lb/ftlb, which means yours is only (23-17)/23 = 26% down on the Leaf or, looking at it the other way, the Leaf is only (23-17)/17 = 35% zippyer?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

My car has 100*7 = 700 ft-lb starting torque more or less, but the leaf has 200*8=1600. The nissan is heavier but not that much. The difference is enough that people notice something is up if I have to start on a hill at the front of a line of traffic. It's not undriveable though.


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## mmark666 (Feb 21, 2009)

I tried to find the weight of the highlander diff/motor unit, but couldn't find any information. Do you know how heavy it is (approximately is fine)? I like to entertain the idea of using two in an AWD conversion...


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

90 pounds, you don't even need a lift to put it in the car.


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## mmark666 (Feb 21, 2009)

90 pounds? wow, that's very nice. That's not much more than a normal differential. And two should drive a smaller car like an Audi TT or (pick your favorite small car with AWD) nicely...


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

I always thought a pair would be nice too, being relatively light & easy to fit but twin controllers to run them could be expensive. 

So what's the model of this Ford you have stateside with the 360v extra grunt electric motor in it Ryan? Is it like a Prius M1 motor where you have to remove it from the ICE then machine up a bearing end plate or is it a lift out like the Lexus unit we have now?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Unfortunately it's the front kind like in the Prius so you have to remove the extra crap. They are in the Ford Excape and Ford Fusion hybrids, I think in Australia the Fusion is called a Mondeo but it looks like maybe they don't offer any hybrid models in Australia, but maybe I'm missing something.

The older ones (before 2009) used 330V and the after that they switched to a 270 or 300 volts.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

Ryan I'm scratching me head what to do next here. I really like the idea of a drop in electric transaxle but it seems from your experience with the Saturn that 900Nm of starting torque from the Rx400H unit just isn't enough for a 1000kg car. This really puzzles me beacause the AC24LS/AT1200 combo that I first looked at way back in 2009 was about the same (92Nm x 10:1 = 920Nm) & the now defunct Azure Dynamics claimed it was good for vehicles up to 1600kg.
Anyway I'm now wondering about a Tritium motor/controller combo again, but I need a differential to go with it. Do you know what the availability of the Borg Warner 31-03 (http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/tools/7953) is like in the USA? I saw a post for them on this forum priced at $1300 a piece but it seems to be a dead end.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

Ryan, Is it possible you are just limiting your amps too much and not getting the full torque of the motor? I don't have the time to search right now but I believe one of the documents linked earlier in the thread may list the amps required for the stated torque.


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

PlanB, those BorgWarner units look pretty cool but I have no idea how to get one. I'm sure it's possible, I know a guy with an EV1 motor transmission that he got from a dealership that had it lying around and didn't know what to do with it, but it seems like just coincidence that he found one. Same for Tesla and Leaf stuff. There was a post on here a while back where someone said they bought a pretty trashed Leaf for $15k, so they're just not going to be junkyard material for a while.

Toad, that's definitely possible, I haven't done much to verify the current capacity of the motor, and haven't experimented much either. But 50kW at 650V DC bus comes out to 63A phase current, so I'm already likely pushing it a little at 80A. Also, the high voltage electrical connector has pretty small conductors. I've been busy lately and have been daily driving my car, but I'll experiment with it more at some point.


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## PlanB (Jan 20, 2010)

I took the end plate of my transaxle today Ryan, it's got 12 wires connected to each of the 3 motor terminals. Does anybody know how an 8 pole motor can have 36 coil ends? I was just wondering it if it might be possible to get it to run better on a 375v pack by working some sort of wye to delta conversion or something?


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## psron (Jun 19, 2012)

Been lurking... just recently bought an '08 HiHy, and this thread is very interesting... I actually came here to suggest the same idea.

Does anyone have a copy of the picture of the MGR "opened up" that was mentioned a couple pages back? I tried the link... it's now dead, and I've been looking for just such a photo...

Thanks in advance!


(this link...)
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Reference/CVT_Transmissions.htm


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## GerhardRP (Nov 17, 2009)

they moved it:
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/2011/Diagnosis/Reference/Hybrid-Electric_Vehicles.htm


psron said:


> Been lurking... just recently bought an '08 HiHy, and this thread is very interesting... I actually came here to suggest the same idea.
> 
> Does anyone have a copy of the picture of the MGR "opened up" that was mentioned a couple pages back? I tried the link... it's now dead, and I've been looking for just such a photo...
> 
> ...


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

PlanB said:


> I took the end plate of my transaxle today Ryan, it's got 12 wires connected to each of the 3 motor terminals. Does anybody know how an 8 pole motor can have 36 coil ends? I was just wondering it if it might be possible to get it to run better on a 375v pack by working some sort of wye to delta conversion or something?


Take some Pictures?


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, the pics online are very limited. Any luck with the wiring?


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Gerard, very interesting link.

I'd be keen to find out how to get some more power and torque out the motor. Is it cooled? Hopefully the manufacturers have given it a good safety margin for us to push it a bit harder... I'm looking at using two, one on each axle of my awd Rav, maybe rewound with the new higher voltage Curtis controllers linked as an electronic centre diff. Prefer to not have to rewind though...

Yes, pictures and maybe some detailed dimensions would be great!


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## Clarence (Oct 31, 2012)

In 2008 i ave use highlander rear diff and this is awesome and do good work is it my personal opinion because he give me a good result and better work.


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## few2many (Jun 23, 2009)

Anything more specific? Controller, batteries, volts, amps?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Tyler and all, Here are my thoughts after working with the motor for a while:

1) It's an IPM motor, which is synchronous as opposed to induction motors which are asynchronous and thus require very different control software and position sense. Make sure the Curtis can run this type of motor and that they're willing to work with you on tuning a new motor (my guess is it can't and they won't)

2) The motor doesn't really provide enough torque to drive a car. You can turn the current up until it does, but based on the size of the motor and wires, you'd be pushing it really hard and I'm not sure it would hold up for any length of time. Also high current + high temperature might instantly demagnetize it.

3) I haven't tried rewinding or anything, so there may still be hope there for all of you who want to run it at lower voltage, but you still have to find a controller. Tritium works (still working out some kinks though); the Rinehart controllers definitely have the ability, just not a combination that's been tried yet as far as I know.

4) My experience running the motor is not enough torque for even a really light car (2400lbs with me in it). I'm noticeably slower than traffic on uphill starts. Also, it won't go above 45mph due to control issues. I'm trying to work these out, though progress has been slow because I'm busy, lazy, and having problems with other components that I tried to be cheap on and am now paying the price. just make sure you're ready for a project, and can live with minimal performance when you're done.

I've decided to move on to a Ford Fusion hybrid motor, which is 300V, more appropriately sized, but requires removal of extra transimission components. I'd rather work out the control issues with this one, which actually has the possibility of making a driveable car once it's up and running.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Ryan

Any details of what parameters you are running your motor at? I was thinking if it is more actively cooled, wiring reconnected if possible in parallel sets (see rewriting AC motor thread) and pushed a little more and use 2 motors, one per axle, would render better performance. I'm thinking one of these would fit in place of a solid beam rear axle on a small hatch back with a simple De Dion setup and handle like a dream! Bt then I'm a bit too much of a dreamer occasionally...

Clarence

Please tell us how you are using your motor, what vehicle, controller, batteries, parameters, performance etc. a build thread with pictures and numbers would be fantastic please/thanks!


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm using 80A/phase, 410V nominal, and control issues have so far limited my battery current to 40A (so about 16kw peak power, but at least delivered from about 15mph to 40 mph). Higher power levels become unstable above about 30 mph - jerky or the controller simply shuts off.

I haven't updated my build thread for a while, but it's here. Once I get going on the rebuild with the Ford motor, I'll add to it.

"rewinding" it may put it more in the sweet spot for available controllers, including mine, but you still can't subject the magnets to much stronger field, so it won't help the torque, just extend it to higher rpm. two motors would be much more realistic, but what would you control them with? My Tritium was $6000, and it would be hard for me to justify buying 2 just to get to 100 hp.

I have it in a Saturn SW, with only 6.5kWh battery. The motor gets warm after "long" drives, but not to where I would worry. I think you could circulate the ATF through a cooler to allow sustained higher power levels.

As I said, I think the Ford transmission is the way to go, but I haven't actually run it yet. Hopefully it won't be too difficult to remove unnecessary parts.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Ryan800 said:


> I'm using 80A/phase, 410V nominal, and control issues have so far limited my battery current to 40A (so about 16kw peak power, but at least delivered from about 15mph to 40 mph). Higher power levels become unstable above about 30 mph - jerky or the controller simply shuts off.


 If you are running Peak power at ~16kw then its hardly a fair evaluation of the potential of this motor. 

I have been looking for someone who actually has demagnetize magnets from the field from a stator in a brushless motor but I don't think anyone ever has! Heat yes magnetism no (to my searching/knowledge)
I have ran a 1kw motor with >30kw and there was no damage just the windings got hot fast. 
Have you or others have anyone you know who has damaged magnets from the field and not heat?


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

I don't have any first hand experience with demagnetizing magnets but I seem to remember that the field strength to demagnetize an Nd magnet decreases more or less linearly until it's 0 at like 300C or something.

I agree though that you could turn the current up quite a bit above what I'm running. I think you would find a real limit somewhere around 120-150A, but how do you know until something goes wrong?

As for overall power, the voltage pretty much determines it. It's 50Kw @650V, so at 390V (about what my pack sags to under heavy load), that's 30Kw. I've seen 20-25 but as the car speeds up I have to back off the accelerator to avoid control issues. I found it easier to just limit the power at all speeds.

Overall, I totally understand where you're coming from. Two motors and transmissions for $1000 sounds great, but they're just not easy to control. The Curtis won't do it, you'd want Tritium or Rinehart, or one of the really expensive ones. And then, it's not cheap anymore and you will want more power for your money. To do what you want, you need to be able to hack into the power modules and use their control code. Obviously I don't have the knowledge to do this or I wouldn't have bought a controller. I do plan to find some sort of project for the extra IGBTs I now have lying around though...


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Here's one demag event...

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p21.html

He says they overheated, but he also said he put like 500A into the motor to create the heat, I don't see how you determine which one killed the magnets. I bet the magnets would have been fine if they were subjected to only the temperature and not the field (and vice versa).


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't think the peak power comes at 650V. The Toyota highbrids have a pretty low amp capable pack and only 210V or so. They jack the voltage up occasionally but that would drop the amps proportionally so no power gain would come from it. I'm guessing the volt boost is used to keep the motor from becoming a generator(drag) at highway speeds and to allow regen at lower speeds. I still think the real deal to be had is using the factory inverter. One of the plug in conversion companies has Highlanders staying in pure EV mode up to 70mph so it can be done.


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

Ryan800 said:


> I don't have any first hand experience with demagnetizing magnets but I seem to remember that the field strength to demagnetize an Nd magnet decreases more or less linearly until it's 0 at like 300C or something.
> 
> I agree though that you could turn the current up quite a bit above what I'm running. I think you would find a real limit somewhere around 120-150A, but how do you know until something goes wrong?
> 
> ...


If the KV is that low I agree with you. If I was you I would scope it while spinging it by hand and work the numbers to find the actual KV out. As for controllers well I have built one for 3 phase BLDC and Im using microchip right now but I sugest anyone looking at a controller project look to Texas Instraments they have a few kits with partial (and maybe compleat) code to get you going. They show videos of Instaspin which they can spin almost any bldc in 30 seconds or less!!! 
As for this motor I think I want to find two and start with one get it working then add the other to the front wheels. I will look at rewinding it. But for now I don't have the cash or time. 
As for demagnatizing heat alone will kill a magnet. We uasaly try to find the temp rating of the mags and usualy try to use mags with 180 deg C temp rating. Which meens they can be heated anything below that without damage. Here is a thread I started asking about this on endless sphere http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=44831
Cheers. 
Arlin.


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

I know heat will kill a magnet, but heat and field will kill it at a lower temperature. You could demagnetize them at room temp with a strong enough coil. http://www.mcmaster.com/#demagnetizers/=jzpd5y (I know those aren't actually strong enough for a Nd magnet, but same principle)

I have logs of output V and rpm, so I can get you the kV if you want. I think I've seen up to about 900V though, certainly well over the 410 of my pack. Toyota achieves peak power by using MG2 as a generator to supplement the battery power. I think peak battery power is like 20Kw or something much less than the motor rating. Maybe that's for the Prius and it's a little higher in the Highlander, but not much.

This isn't a BLDC motor, which would be easier to control. If it were, there wouldn't be any power available over about 20 mph. IPMs rely heavily on reluctance torque and have a similar torque curve to an induction motor (and can actually have a larger constant power region if designed for such). It is, however, synchronous, so up to 20mph, the TI controller would probably work fine, the problem is when you have to advance the drive signal - it takes more knowledge than I have to get max torque per amp above base speed without resorting to trial and error. Also, they're more susceptible to noisy position signals since losing track of motor position by even a few degrees makes for a jerky ride. I think this is the main problem I'm having.


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## Ryan800 (Apr 15, 2010)

Ok, I just read the ES thread. Apologies for dismissing your ideas so quickly, it now seems likely that while demagnetization is possible with field alone, I probably won't be able to create such a strong field in this type of motor. I still have concern about 1) winding and feed-thru resistive heating 2) half-shaft mechanical strength and 3) control issues becoming more severe due to high power levels lower in the rpm range.

I'll see if I can get the car back together to work out my controller kinks on the MGR then dump a few more amps in. As I said though, this wasn't the only issue that prompted me to start the motor/battery upgrade.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ryan

Do you have any pictures of your motor's wiring, ideally showing the coil linkage joints if possible. Thinking if you can reconnect them in parallel you will lower the KV of the motor and make life easier for your Tritium.

Take a look in the 'rewinding an AC motor' thread.

I will check out your thread, thanks for linking that.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Unbelievable! Forum sent me to some stupid survey!

I was saying...

Ryan

Have you got any pictures of your motor please, ideally showing the wiring inside, and if possible the coil connections. I'd like ot see fi the coils can be reconnected in parallel to reduce the KV. This would help out your Tritium by the way, and if enough connections can be changed it may even allow use of a Curtis controller...

See the 'rewind an ac motor' thread for my inspiration.

Thanks for posting your build thread link by the way, I will check it out!


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

After all that it did post my first post... Figures!


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Unbelievable! Forum sent me to some stupid survey!
> 
> I was saying...
> 
> ...


How would this make it easier for the controller??? 
If you double the rpm per volt you will have 4x less inductance. Ryan you don't know the inductance by chance? I would bet its a few hundred uH so you can get away with it.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Apologies, I meant a lower kV would give a wider choice of controller. Please forgive me, my knowledge of controller parameters is limited.

If the wiring is unchanged and we've simply connected the coils differently wouldn't it have the same net effect on the motor's performance as long as the controller can handle the higher inductance?


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## Arlo (Dec 27, 2009)

tylerwatts said:


> Apologies, I meant a lower kV would give a wider choice of controller. Please forgive me, my knowledge of controller parameters is limited.
> 
> If the wiring is unchanged and we've simply connected the coils differently wouldn't it have the same net effect on the motor's performance as long as the controller can handle the higher inductance?


Higher inductance is what a controller likes. The inductance is what controls how long the amps take to build during fet or IGBT on time higher inductance meens less torque ripple!

If you want to spin the motor with less voltage to the same rpm you will have a higher rpm/volt (kv) so the inductance will be lower but from what I have seen most controllers are fine with motor inductance ~100uH or more. My controller is working with 8uH but I learnt to build my own just for the fact non of the cheep controllers could do it.

It is possible to build up a cheep controller to run the highlander diff if it was rewound but it will depend on the inductance or L/R but resistance is not a big deal and you simply want the resistance as low as possible to make the motor more efficent but the inductance is another story. I will see how efficient my system is with the 8uH motor I have but there is a chance I need to rewind for more inductance.


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