# Headway Rust Issue



## echas (Jun 25, 2008)

I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my Headway Batteries. I purchased 512 cells (16 32-cell packs) of 38120-S cells for use in my electric 240sx conversion. After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida garage, most of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the positive terminals. The cells still have a good charge and spot testing has shown them to meet discharge specifications, unfortunately the rust is now making it's way to the contact area and will need to be remedied before they can be used in a vehicle. I'm not quite sure how to do this yet.

The batteries are still under warranty. I've discussed this with Victoria, the Headway rep. With best regards, she informs me they were improperly stored. This is simply not the case. The batteries were not exposed to the elements in any way. They were loaded off the truck when I received them and placed on a cart. The cart was rolled into the back of garage (inside) and there it stayed.

Here are some pictures:
http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/

For those without Flash support here are some direct links to the pictures:
http://is.gd/97Apl
http://is.gd/97AFB
http://is.gd/97AKp

Charlie


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Let me point out quite clearly, since some of the cells show no rust and adjacent cells are rusted, this is obviously a sign of inconsistency in manufacturing materials and quality control on the part of Headway, and should certainly be covered by warranty. There is no difference between storing cells in a garage and mounting them in an EV. For Headway to claim otherwise is unacceptable. Headway has been on shaky ground with quality control in the past, if they don't cover this they cannot be trusted in my book. How they handle this will show us the kind of company they really are.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Let me point out quite clearly, since some of the cells show no rust and adjacent cells are rusted, this is obviously a sign of inconsistency in manufacturing materials and quality control on the part of Headway, and should certainly be covered by warranty. There is no difference between storing cells in a garage and mounting them in an EV. For Headway to claim otherwise is unacceptable. Headway has been on shaky ground with quality control in the past, if they don't cover this they cannot be trusted in my book. How they handle this will show us the kind of company they really are.


Watching this VERY carefully.

I had planned on using a large number of Headway cells in a compitition format. The final configuration to supply bursts of 2000 + amps at 300+- volts was to use Headways in designed in, structial compartments. 

I'm glad to see this problem show up now, since only the first metal for the frame has been cut and tacked. If I have to redesign for pouches or some other format that will allow a high C rate of discharge I would prefer not to scrap a bunch of steel.

How Headway handles a situation of obvious physical problems, absolutly not caused by the end user will be interesting.

The indications already shown (Victoria saying it was improper storage without any real investigation) tell me we will have the typical "it's not my fault" reaction.

Not through any real experiance, but just through watching results of the ingrained Chinese cultural reactions to these kinds of situations. It looks like somewhere in the chain of supply/construction a bad decision was made, possibly with the best of intentions. Now no one wants to step forward and take responsibility.

Could be the end user gets a lesson in the Chinese understanding of warrenties, Headway batterys goes out of business and Backway Batteries is born.


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

From your pictures, it appears that the steel used to press the cell components was untreated, it should be galvanised/plated to resist corrosion, certainly should be a warranty issue.

If these cells cannot cope with a little humidity, they are almost certainly not going to be any good for in car use in most parts of the world, where they will either experience humidity or damp to some degree on a regular basis.

Make sure the rep is aware you are making thier treatment of the issue very public and good luck!

Paul


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

echas said:


> I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my Headway Batteries.... After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida garage, most of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the positive terminals.
> ...


 

I'll agree that's an alarming amount of rust! And my first question was, "What the hell is mild steel doing on a cell in the first place?!"

How "Victoria" handles this is relevant, to be sure, but if Headway doesn't change the metal used to make the cap to something corrosion-resistant then any replacements will suffer the same fate.


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

Hi !

I have to say I think that you have something in that tape used to cover the sides, that is actually doing something bad in the pack.

Look carefully at the busbars they also have rust, and the lug on the negative pole.

Best regards
/Per


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

pm_dawn said:


> Hi !
> 
> I have to say I think that you have something in that tape used to cover the sides, that is actually doing something bad in the pack.
> 
> ...


Then why do some cells have no rust? I've never heard of any tape that can rust metal on it's own, and only selectively.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Plus the tape was from Headway, they assembled the packs.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

These cells are made for automotive use, and as such should be made to withstand the elements. That is a ton of rust, more than I would think could develop in 6 months. It almost looks like they were under water for 6 months. Maybe they were improperly handled when shipped across the ocean. I wonder if there is a way to tell if the rust was there before the bus bars were bolted down. Seems like the rust is equally bad under the bus bar as it is around the exposed cap. 

What does the distribution of rusty cells look like. are they all on one side, as if one side was under water? I've found old batteries burried in the yard for 20+ years that had less rust!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Apparently the + terminal of the cell is steel with a thin anti-corrosion coating, obviously too thin. I'm guessing the non rusted cell ends are - terminals and a different material. LiFeTech cells use the same construction but with a better anti-corrosion coating.


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## echas (Jun 25, 2008)

I opened up two more packs today. What a mess.

http://is.gd/9coce
http://is.gd/9cot7
http://is.gd/9coGm
http://is.gd/9coVa
http://is.gd/9cp2N
http://is.gd/9cpeV

The shipment was not abused or damaged in any way during shipment. All were dry and not leaking salt water . I also had them ship me 4 spare cells which arrived with the shipment. These cells still look like new since they were kept indoors.

No Headway response from my last 2 emails.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If Lorraine shows up again talking about how good Headway cells are I'll be sure to point her to this thread. Have you tried contacting her?
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162101&postcount=64


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

It is unfortunate to hear of the people who have rusting Headway cells.
If cells are virtually new and they have this much rust on them now then just imagine what they will look like in two or three years from now.

It all comes down to the poor materials, lacking quality control and the fact that Headway cuts corners to save costs wherever they can. They could put a much thicker layer of clear anti-corrosion lacquer on their cells just as LiFeTech do but they choose not to, to save a few cents.

The Western consumer just looks at the price and doesn't give much thought of what happens down the track. Many people criticize me because LiFeTech cells cost more than Headway cells. Well the fact of the matter is that LiFeTech cells do cost a bit more due to our much higher manufacturing standards but lets see how happy Headway customers feel in 5 years time. 

I hope that Headway will give an assurance that the rust formed around the terminal thread won't lead to a high resistance joint which could overheat under high discharge loads leading to the possibility of a battery pack fire. I hardly think that Headway will take responsibility for any fires or other battery pack failures which are the result of their poor QC. 

Lets hope that Headway fixes this corrosion problem and replaces all these rusty cells at their cost!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Frankly I'm a bit concerned that both Headway and Lifetech use steel in their cells at all. TS and SE don't and are much cheaper.


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## nen (Feb 27, 2010)

There exists a potential problem in people posting danming claims on the internet about products that supposedly don't perform: There's a HUGE amount of issues that could be involved in the user's problem, that aren't communicated in the post. For instance, the biggest hit youtube video on the failure of Thundersky batteries... How does anyone know that these batteries that failed were charged per the manufacturers' specifications? It would be very easy to charge them with a charger/BMS (or without a BMS at all) that was not correct for LiFePO4 batteries, and hence ruin the batteries, and then the user would claim that the batteries are faulty?

The situation of this corrosion failure needs the appropriate questioning before concluding that the cells are sub-standard. For instance, what if the cells were stored in a shed that is 100 feet from the ocean? ANY cells that were in such an environment would have corrosion issues.

I'm not strictly trying to defend Headway here. If it's true that they made a batch of cells that have mild steel and no protective plating on the ends, then they deserve condemnation--these cells will often be used in automotive use, and corrosion resistance is a necessity.

But I'd like to encourage everyone to ask the necessary questions.

Niel


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What question do you want answered? The cells were packaged by Headway, and stored in a garage as packaged. It's no different than if they were mounted, (stored), in an EV in the same garage. Billions of people live in close proximity to an ocean. If Headway cells, unlike every other cell I've ever seen, are not to be used near an ocean, they better state that very clearly in all their product information. Since no such disclaimer was issued, they are to blame. Thundersky had well known issues with their older LiCo cells, and for years they had a very poor reputation because of their failure to warranty them. They've fixed their problems and hopefully learned their lesson. Headway should get in front of this quickly or risk losing a lot of business. This is not the only problem I've seen with Headway cells, and at this point I doubt I'd touch them. If I did I'd go through EVcomponents who will at least honor a warranty and has some clout with Headway as a volume purchaser.


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## echas (Jun 25, 2008)

Here is a link to the specifications document provided to me by Headway when I purchased the packs.

http://is.gd/9kyJ1

The only requirement in the document that references the battery environment is a storage temperature specification of -20 to +35C, which was not exceeded. 

My house is located about 3/4 miles from the ocean here is South Florida. We have never had accelerated rust issues with any of our cars or outside structures this distance from the ocean. All of thus is irrelevant because the packs were sealed by Headway and kept inside a garage, far from the elements. There are many other steel items in my garage that have not shown any signs of rust in over 10 years. Let's get real here. I have some steel angle iron that has been stored out in the weather that looks better than these batteries. Something is causing this, and it is not the weather.

Some of the folks on the EVDL list seem to think the issue is related to the plastics leeching chemical vapors in the sealed pack that accelerated the rusting of the plated caps.


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## nen (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm glad to hear more about the environment about where the batteries were stored. When you say that there were other unprotected steel items in the same area for years that don't have corrosion problems, that means that the environment is not out of the ordinary from a corrosion standpoint. It certainly looks like there is a problem with the plating (or lack thereof) on the metal ends, or something in the packaging is causing a severe corrosion environment, or both. I'd sure like to hear an explanation from Headway on what happened.

I've seen even stainless steel corrode when it is very near the ocean. A salt spray environment is an almost impossible environment for any metal item. I don't think that any company's battery would survive a salt spray environment without extensive user applied coatings. That was the reason for bringing it up. I hadn't heard the details of the environment.

The published specifications from Headway don't specify anything about corrosion resistance either way (at least that I can read in English). It leaves it to the user/oem to have to guess and speculate on the suitability of the cells for the environment (or have to test it themselves). You'd like to think that cells being sold for EV use would have suitable corrosion resistance for the automotive environment. Normally things used by the automotive industry come with specifications on their corrosion resistance, like passes xxx hours of ASTM salt spray test number --.

Seeing this corrosion appear, I'd sure like to see some specs from Headway (and also the other battery companies) on the suitability of the cells in an automotive environment. An automotive environment is much harder than, say, a PC in an office. Is the metal in the cell plated with nickel or other plating to prevent corrosion? Are there any other parts of the cell that have problems with the high humidity often seen in in an automotive environment? My company is developing a new device that will use large LiFePO4 batteries, and this issue has me concerned.

Niel


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

nen said:


> I've seen even stainless steel corrode when it is very near the ocean. A salt spray environment is an almost impossible environment for any metal item.
> 
> Seeing this corrosion appear, I'd sure like to see some specs from Headway (and also the other battery companies) on the suitability of the cells in an automotive environment.
> Niel


As a manufacturer I can provide some insight regarding the suitability of LiFeTech cells under similar conditions.

A large part of our battery market is the supply of lithium batteries for boating applications (both for propulsion as well as house power). 
We are providing batteries to power some electric patrol boats and we are providing the owner of these boats with 5 years / 3000 cycles warranty on the LiFeTech battery packs which are made up of our cells which look very similar to Headway cells. And yes these boats are used for patrolling of sea channels and canals so we are talking about a saltwater environment rather than a freshwater lake.

We have no problem providing this kind of warranty since we are working closely with the customer to satisfy their requirements (and thus give total peace of mind concerning their batteries). 

The reason we can provide this reassurance is because of the extensive testing we undertake and the fact we use better quality materials compared with the other cell manufacturers. 
For instance Headway use a very thin anti-corrosion coating on their cells. We use a much thicker coating on our cells. I must say that even I am surprised to see such bad rusting of virtually new Headway cells. I would of expected this rusting not to appear quite so soon. Perhaps Headway completely forgot to provide any anti-corrosion protection on a batch of cells? The owners of affected cells should be able to tell if there is any sign of a clear layer of protective lacquer on the cells or not.

LiFeTech batteries are subjected to several rigorous tests as part of our stringent QC test procedures. One such test involves corrosion testing in a salt spray booth. 
I would like to be able to attach this document here for the benefit of anyone reading this forum. Unfortunately the PDF document which shows all of the factory tests including the salt spray chamber testing is 2.8Mb so I am unable to attach it here.
Feel free to email me directly at [email protected] with the subject "Lifetech battery testing request" and I will be pleased to email the document for your reference.

Each and every LiFeTech cell is tested and graded and then the complete battery packs are also thoroughly tested. Every battery pack which LiFeTech supply comes with an individual battery testing report for that battery.

It should be said that our factory has more than 3 million USD worth of cell and battery testing equipment and it takes considerable time and labor to test every cell and every battery we manufacture. All this costs extra so this is why our cells cost more than Headway cells.
We are in the market to supply a quality/reliable product mainly to OEM's and we will not cut corners on quality like Headway do so as to make the cost of the product as cheap as possible and therefore as appealing as possible to western buyers (at the expense of reliability problems down the track). 

Only a few weeks ago LiFeTech Energy took delivery of our latest piece of advanced battery test equipment. This is a Bitrode HV battery tester (450V 300A Automatic cycle tester) made in the USA with a price tag of 120,000USD. This piece of test equipment is mainly to be used to test our 350V CAN EV batteries.


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

i put Vaseline on all unused battery terminals. NO RUST AT ALL. easy fix, for a complex problem.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, and is hard to deal with when cells come prepackaged and sealed from the factory.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> A problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, and is hard to deal with when cells come prepackaged and sealed from the factory.


Surely the pack will be repaired or replaced under warranty. Just return it to the supplier you purchased the pack from and if they are a reputable company surely they will see the battery problem is due to a manufacturing fault and they will replace it under warranty.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

This is the only person that I've EVER heard of having rust issues.....go to where you bought them and demand a refund..... Either its something about the way the pack was made (i.e. the plastic wrapping), or there was an issue with that batch.... because NONE of the 3500 we've sold in the last 6-8 months or so have had these issues (or at least no one has come back to myself or EVComponents concerning this issue.)


A few things that concern me:
- This Original Poster only has a few posts on here and DIYElectricCar, not enough to discount his claims, but suspicious
- BMI/Lifetech/whatever was very quick to jump in and criticize headway
which leads me to wonder:
Is this really true? Things just don't seem to add up.

While it may truly be a problem with his pack, we have no clue any other details about this situation.... And since I've never heard of it happening with other cells, I suspect this might be an isolated incident...... or its not entirely true.


I looked at Echas's website, and initially he used lead acid, and there was no mention of buying Headways anywhere before he posted the rust pictures..... but he insists he stored them for 6 months. Up until now, he hasn't updated his blog since January 2009, and his post from September, 2008 says he's using floodies because he can't afford lithium. But then 6-8 months later he decides he can, orders packs of Headways, and stores them for 6 months. Why store them? Why the investment in lead just to buy lithium 6-8 months later?


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

frodus said:


> This is the only person that I've EVER heard of having rust issues..... I agree, go to where you bought them and demand a refund.....
> 
> But seriously BMI, what are you even doing here? Looks like you're just waiting to pounce and badmouth headway..... Start your own thread.


A previous poster here (nen) asked for input feedback from Headway as well as from other battery manufacturers about suitability issues in this thread. You may of missed this earlier in the thread. As a manufacturer and supplier and familiar with both products and since I have an intimate understanding of both brands (and differences in manufacturing between brands) I trust that forum readers find much of this information (which they would otherwise be unaware of) to be quite informative and as a result they will ask more questions of all suppliers regarding issues relating to warranty, manufacturing quality, etc. and the like, and consumers will be able to make a better informed decision with their future battery purchases.
Recently I am starting to receive ever increasing enquiries from unhappy customers who have purchased in particular Chinese made e-bike batteries which have failed in a short time leaving the customers concerned very disgruntled. Some of these batteries are absolute junk and I feel sorry for these buyers who have wasted their money.
If by pointing out the poor manufacturing practices of some of these companies it helps to force them to lift their game and supply better quality products then that can only be a good thing!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Frodus,
I can tell you that I was the one who originally suggested he post his story on DIYelectriccar after seeing his original post on the EVDL, where BMIlifetech did not say anything. You're seeing a conspiracy where there is none. What do you think, BMIlifetech sponsored this guy to buy some cells, spray them with salt so they would rust? Makes no sense.
He said he bought them from Headway and that Headway won't warranty them because they weren't stored properly.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

Thankyou JRP3 for coming forward to make the facts known. I appreciate you speaking up to set the record straight. Thanks


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> This is the only person that I've EVER heard of having rust issues.....go to where you bought them and demand a refund..... Either its something about the way the pack was made (i.e. the plastic wrapping), or there was an issue with that batch.... because NONE of the 3500 we've sold in the last 6-8 months or so have had these issues (or at least no one has come back to myself or EVComponents concerning this issue.)


As I pointed out on endless-sphere, there was another poster who had some rust spots showing on his cells, though not to this degree. And if it's a problem with the packaging, Headway made the packaging, so it's their problem and should be covered.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm always skeptical of claims like this...... there's just not that much "history" to base the story on, and with BMI being so damning toward headway..... it just seemed fishy. 

Also, Victoria isn't even Headway, she's just a reseller and from what I've seen, its hard to get her to do much of anything for warranty claims. She still has not replaced any bad cells in the 1500 cell order I did back in May of last year..... Hell, she won't even reply to my emails.....

I don't know why anyone deals with her anymore..... seriously. Just because you pay less for cells, doesn't mean you get a better deal....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not everyone is aware of the distinction between Chinese factories and resellers and who's who. I see this as a good reason to buy from places such as EVcomponents who will actually honor a warranty. 
Just think how you'd feel if you as an individual ordered these packs from what you thought was Headway, then opened them up and found this mess? Then they wouldn't do anything about the warranty.
As for BMI jumping in, very often people compare Headway and BMI and wonder why BMI is so much more expensive. This may be a good example of why. This is not the only quality problem I've heard of with Headway cells, and you must be aware of bad cells that have been delivered from Headway to some ES members.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

The percentage of bad cells is below a couple percent, and we can't determine if that was because of user-related issues or if it was a DOA. The ones that we've seen as bad, we work with customers on replacing the cells. I don't know that many suppliers offer warranty that isn't through the manufacturer. Victoria never replaced the few failed cells I got in the 1500 I bought in may, never responded to emails.

Good luck though echas.


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## echas (Jun 25, 2008)

Travis,

You certainly have a lot to say about the subject, but it's hardly an unbiased opinion.

I'll try and address a few of your points. Your quotes begin with ">>"

>> Also, Victoria isn't even Headway, she's just a reseller.... I don't know why anyone deals with her anymore. go to where you bought them and demand a refund..... 

I purchased my batteries direct before there was a distributor here in the US (you). Here is a scan of Victoria's business card I acquired when I met with her in March. Looks legitimate to me, but it's only a card.

http://is.gd/9u8Pk

I originally got involved with Headway the beginning of last year because my company, Vintage Voltage, was considering distributing the cells. I thought it wise to first put a pack through some EV testing before doing so. Later I abandoned the importing business and have since focused on my passion, electrical and computer engineering which I've been practicing over 27 years.

By the way...how many EV's have you tested the Headway batteries in?

>> This is the only person that I've EVER heard of having rust issues.....NONE of the 3500 we've sold in the last 6-8 months or so have had these issues (or at least no one has come back to myself or EVComponents concerning this issue.)

May be because the cells have not been in circulation long enough to have the rust problem. 

>> Either its something about the way the pack was made (i.e. the plastic wrapping), or there was an issue with that batch.

Whatever the case, what does this say about Headway quality?


>> I looked at Echas's website, and initially he used lead acid.... But then 6-8 months later he decides he can, orders packs of Headways, and stores them for 6 months. Why store them? Why the investment in lead just to buy lithium 6-8 months later?

I have not used the batteries for over six months or updated my web site because I'm building a BMS for them. I was and am still not satisfied with the available BMS offerings and decided to build my own. 5 months ago I happened to get a second rather full time job which has slowed my progress a bit. Sounds like every EV project to me.

Charlie

Thanks for defending me JRP!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> I originally got involved with Headway the beginning of last year because my company, Vintage Voltage, was considering distributing the cells. I thought it wise to first put a pack through some EV testing before doing so. Later I abandoned the importing business and have since focused on my passion, electrical and computer engineering which I've been practicing over 27 years.


Ok, sounds like we were looking into importing about the same time. We quickly realized we needed to go straight to Headway and have been happy thus far (except for some bad BMS's on bike packs).



> By the way...how many EV's have you tested the Headway batteries in?


I've got one 72V 20Ah pack I've tested. Some colleagues at Synkromotive have tested a large battery pack for a Hybrid vehicle with outstanding results. Personally, I've only had experience with my own project. But I imported 1500 cells myself and supported all of the customers, and helped sell over 3000 cells since then through EVComponents (4500 total cells). I've gotten feedback from some of our major customers (Ahambone, Commuter Car/Tango, two motorcycle companies, several people involved in racing.... many other low volume customers ..etc). None of them seem to have many problems, most is just figuring out how to configure the pack.



> May be because the cells have not been in circulation long enough to have the rust problem.


There are 1500 cells in circulation that were delivered before you got yours (according to your post in Feb, assuming 6 months before that, sometime in September. We got ours in July/August. I haven't heard anything about rust yet. All were loose cells not wrapped in plastic.

Also, none of the bike packs were wrapped like yours, so I'm thinking it has something to do with your pack and how it was put together.



> Whatever the case, what does this say about Headway quality?


It does show there may be some issues with how they put the pack together. I haven't seen others with rust issues, but they weren't enclosed like yours. This seems like an isolated incident and may be related to the materials they used (i.e. the plastic wrapping), or maybe that they were contaminated before assembly or exposed to water before assembling. Is it something they need to address? Yes. I'd like to see them use other material/stronger coatings on their cells so it doesn't happen. Maybe Aluminum like the Lifetech/lifebatt/bmi cells?



> I have not used the batteries for over six months or updated my web site because I'm building a BMS for them. I was and am still not satisfied with the available BMS offerings and decided to build my own. 5 months ago I happened to get a second rather full time job which has slowed my progress a bit. Sounds like every EV project to me.


Appologies, it just seemed like you don't have much info out there to go by thats all. With the way BMI was quick to attack, and your lack of info on the cells, it just seemed a little sketchy, thats all. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Other manufacturers have been more than dishonest.... so I wouldn't put it past them to come up with something creative like this.

I hear you on the BMS solution, not much out there and the stuff that is isn't cheap. I shoulda been done with my project last year, but other stuff and a second job took over.

If you're having problems getting a hold of Victoria, PM me, and we'll go direct to headway.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I had SE cells sitting in my basement for 6 months, I've been working on this conversion for over a year, I know how it goes sometimes.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi to all.
I just want to add something from my experience.
In past we had several situations where in presumable tight casing had water formation inside.
The problem was ALMOST tight casing.
In temperature fluctuations the water vapor could get inside but condensed water could not get out. If the wrapping is not IP68 or more it’s better to leave it open to went and dry any possible condensation. 
In some situations (after some months) the water poured out when door was opened and that in casing under the roof (not outside on the rain) but exposed to temperature fluctuations. 
Better no sealing then bad sealing.
my 2c


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I agree with Zmaster

My rule for electrics in diesel engine test cells (a damp environment) was if I could take it scuba diving then it was OK sealed
if not then it needed drainage/ventilation holes


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

frodus said:


> The percentage of bad cells is below a couple percent, and we can't determine if that was because of user-related issues or if it was a DOA. The ones that we've seen as bad, we work with customers on replacing the cells. I don't know that many suppliers offer warranty that isn't through the manufacturer. Victoria never replaced the few failed cells I got in the 1500 I bought in may, never responded to emails.


The percentage of bad cells which LiFeTech supply its valued customers is ZERO. I have never ever received so much as a single bad cell from the factory- period. As far as I am concerned even a couple of percent of bad cells supplied to customers is a couple of percent too many. Every cell which LiFeTech manufacture is individually tested. We only supply 100% A-Grade cells.
Photo of testing cells in our factory-


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There will always be a market for a range of cell quality and price points. Even though I'd like high quality cells at a cheap price, if I were in the battery business and had the choice of selling more of a cheaper product to individuals or less of a more expensive product to businesses, I'd probably choose the latter. The best we can hope for is to have the quality of the cheaper cells improve enough to make them practical, as seems to have happened with TS and SE. The price is low enough that a few clunkers can be dealt with, and the performance is good enough for most uses. Without those two companies most of us would not be able to build an affordable and useful EV.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

BMI/LiFeTech said:


> The percentage of bad cells which LiFeTech supply its valued customers is ZERO. I have never ever received so much as a single bad cell from the factory- period. As far as I am concerned even a couple of percent of bad cells supplied to customers is a couple of percent too many. Every cell which LiFeTech manufacture is individually tested. We only supply 100% A-Grade cells.
> Photo of testing cells in our factory-


and for that, your customers pay a high premium.....

Most people are ok with paying much less for a cell that has a warranty. If its bad, just return/exchange it for a new one. So in that respect, EVC As a distributor supplies all of its customers with good cells. Thats kind of the reason we've sold so many. Even though there MAY be a bad cell here and there, we replace them.


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## BMI/LiFeTech (Aug 12, 2009)

frodus said:


> and for that, your customers pay a high premium.....
> 
> Most people are ok with paying much less for a cell that has a warranty. If its bad, just return/exchange it for a new one. So in that respect, EVC As a distributor supplies all of its customers with good cells. Thats kind of the reason we've sold so many. Even though there MAY be a bad cell here and there, we replace them.


and for that, our customers have peace of mind they won't be receiving any junk cells. 
What other item do consumers buy knowing (or maybe not knowing) there is a strong likelihood there will be a few that are defective? I think it is not acceptable practice by Headway and others who do not test their cells properly.
It gives the entire EV industry a bad name.

A large market for LiFeTech is the boating industry. These guys are quite different from the sort of guys who would frequent forums such as this (who like to tinker around and perhaps have more electrical knowledge). The boating guys are used to lead acid batteries. They put a battery in and they know it will work properly. When they upgrade to lithium they want the same reassurance. They don't want to have to tinker around finding defective battery cells, cleaning corrosion off terminals,etc. They want a reliable product.
I have heard many instances where boat owners would like to be able to replace their lead acid batteries with lithium but are afraid to because of all the horror stories they have heard due to cell reliability issues and the like.

If Frodus holds the attitude of "oh well, we will just replace the faulty cells here and there as our customers report them" that does not do the EV industry positive service in terms of showing the general public the reliability of the parts used in an EV.
It is certainly not the sort of attitude which LiFeTech Energy will ever subscribe to!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> and for that, our customers have peace of mind they won't be receiving any junk cells.


You act like this happens to Headways all the time.... but it doesn't, but we still give that guarantee of 100% good cells.... free of charge. The end result is the same. 



> What other item do consumers buy knowing (or maybe not knowing) there is a strong likelihood there will be a few that are defective?


I got 200 cells myself, one was low, but it recharged. 2 or 3 out of the 1500 I bought were bad. It was replaced by headway for free.



> A large market for LiFeTech is the boating industry. These guys are quite different from the sort of guys who would frequent forums such as this (who like to tinker around and perhaps have more electrical knowledge). The boating guys are used to lead acid batteries. They put a battery in and they know it will work properly. When they upgrade to lithium they want the same reassurance. They don't want to have to tinker around finding defective battery cells, cleaning corrosion off terminals,etc. They want a reliable product.


Our main market is to sell to the DIY people, not OEM's. A lot of the DIY guys are ok as long as there's a good warranty and a replacement policy IF something arrives DOA.

The corrosion thing happened to ONE person so far..... so chill out. No one even knows why it happened. I've contacted Headway to see if they can help him, but it seems the problem mostly lies with Victoria not responding to the guy. 



> If Frodus holds the attitude of "oh well, we will just replace the faulty cells here and there as our customers report them" that does not do the EV industry positive service in terms of showing the general public the reliability of the parts used in an EV.


These are DIY guys, not OEM's and "general public". They do the research and buy out cells. Sales are NOT dropping, thats for sure. It sure beats paying 3X the cost for a battery pack. We stand by our products, just as we would if we were selling your batteries. The customers get 100% working batteries in the end, and IF they find a bad cell, its usually a few days to ship a new one.




> It is certainly not the sort of attitude which LiFeTech Energy will ever subscribe to!


Good. That's exactly what you should do. Keep your prices high and sell to the people that want everything done for them. We'll cater to the DIY crowd.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Travis

Some very good answers there.

If I had a choice to spend X dollars for my DIY project and knew I should expect 100% perfection on delivery, also knowing there was a chance I might not get it but with a warrenty that tells me I will get 100% value if there is a failure. 

Compared with an alternate choice telling me I could spend 3X dollars for esentially the same product with a guantee of 100% no failure. It's pretty obvious where my DIY money would go.

In a commercial situation I would be inclined to look at the 3X dollar battery since I could pass on the added cost. But bet your bippy I would also be looking at getting a supply of the X dollar batteries and setting up my own certification program and eventually putting those dollars in my own pocket.

I won't (well I will) used the term stuffed shirts, braggerts and other terms for the LiFeTech Energy people. I don't even see where the information they are offering has any value in the DIY world. To offer their "Better Battery" once in this thread is acceptible. To grind it into our faces constantly is unnecessary. To degrade Headway constantly shows no class. We know they are there, If we want their product we will go there. They need to back off. The responder comes across as insufferable and I for one am tired of it.

I had expressed interest in Headway's batteries before for a competion project we have under developement, but this rust issue made me a take another look. I want to be cautious because the money although not a lot for some will be a lot for me. Since we are not seeing a lot of this problem, it appears that either the packaging or a limited run of batteries is at fault. 

I hope Headway or the reseller makes an effort to investigate the problem and satisfy this customer. A fair and public evaluation and investigation of the claim by a third party, sponsored by Headway, would go a long way to restoring my confdence in their company.

I'm glad that you have layed out your policies. It has increased my confidence that I will be able to use Headways next year.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Its hard to tell what happened, but I think a combination of where he lives and the fact that the cells were wrapped in some plastic not allowing any moist air to get out was a problem. True, headway uses steel, but this is the first time I've seen the cells packaged like that and the first time I've seen rust..... so if I had to guess, I think its related to that more than anything.

These cells are just not made to be out in the elements.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

frodus said:


> These cells are just not made to be out in the elements.


And they weren't. It's not as if these cells were sitting out in the yard or something, they were in a garage, and they were in packaging provided by the manufacturer. Arguably they were better protected in the garage than in some EV applications. Obviously in most cases these cells seem to be fine, and steps can be taken to make sure they stay that way. The real issue here is the lack of support from the manufacturer and their attempt to blame the customer for the problem. My guess is cheap plastic packaging out gassing chemicals that reacted with humidity and rusted the cells. Since the packaging came from the manufacturer, it's their fault.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> And they weren't. It's not as if these cells were sitting out in the yard or something, they were in a garage, and they were in packaging provided by the manufacturer. Arguably they were better protected in the garage than in some EV applications. Obviously in most cases these cells seem to be fine, and steps can be taken to make sure they stay that way. The real issue here is the lack of support from the manufacturer and their attempt to blame the customer for the problem. My guess is cheap plastic packaging out gassing chemicals that reacted with humidity and rusted the cells. Since the packaging came from the manufacturer, it's their fault.



I think maybe what I meant was misunderstood..... This case they weren't in the elements. I meant that the cells shouldn't have rust issues if kept out of the elements.... Just not enough is known about what did actually happen.... was it the packaging? chemicals? something else? Rust under normal conditions is unlikely if kept out of the elements. 

The lack of support is NOT the manufacturer. Its Victoria. The manufacturer is telling Victoria she must contact the guy and arrange replacement with the end user since Victoria sold the pack/is the distributor. She hasn't responded, which is typical. Headway will help, but they need more info/help.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

OK, that's good information. Presumably they can put pressure on her to do the right thing, or they can with hold further business. So, do we know for sure that Headway packaged the cells in that manner, or was it Victoria?


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## echas (Jun 25, 2008)

Still trying to get a hold of Victoria. No word in 3 weeks.

Just to clear up the question of who assembled the packs. 

I ordered complete packs (not just the cells) from Headway through their marketing manager, Victoria Chen. I flew to CA just to meet her personally before I made my purchased. I found her to be very knowledgeable and friendly. The overall transaction went fairly well, with the exception of the unexpected $650 extra shipping charge I had to pay upon receipt of the packs in Miami. This was not a local port charge or duty (those were expected) but one added by the shipping company she hired. But we digress...

When I decided to actually purchase the batteries I wired the payment directly to "ZHEJIANG HEADWAY COMMUNICATION EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURING CO.,LTD". The payment included the price to assemble the cells into packs. Since it was sent directly to Headway, it makes sense to presume Headway assembled the packs.


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Victoria's MSM account says she is away in Germany till the 11'th, perhpas that's why she's not replying?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Could be, but that's a hell of a way to run a business. And if the money was sent to Headway she must work for them, and they should have others who can deal with this issue besides her.


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