# Building A Diesel Electric Hybrid Conversion Kit



## 3tcpower (Dec 16, 2008)

Interesting idea, but why diesel? Also, with the numbers you list, are you hoping to offer this kit at a low enough price to make it more practical then a Prius? Cause those numbers are not too much higher then it.

Also there are a few cars out that are estimated to get the mileage, or more, with straight ICE. So, just curious on your market for something like this since I imagine it will be all custom for whoever wants it.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, 

I chose diesel because for many reasons. First, it doesn't have the throttling losses a gasoline engine does as speed is controlled via fuel input, vice air input. Second, is the way the fuel is delivered (direct injection is more effiecient and make better power/torque). Third, a person could run bio diesel or straight vegetable oil (like waste oil from resturants). Diesels are more efficient than a gasoline engine due to the burn characteristics of diesel allowing higher compression with a longer stroke.

The expected cost for a conversion kit should be around $8,000. I have good relationships set up with the electric motor supplier and the diesel engine supplier. My target price will be set to compete directly with EV kits. A 20KW (40KW Peak) engine for this kit for instance costs me about $1500 and runs around 90% efficient at 120V. Motor controller costs $1000 and handles 600 Amps. Engine and generator will be about $3500 after upgrades. Batteries for the kit cost $1200. Extra's add the additional 800. Looking at selling them for $9-10k. That should be a couple thousand cheaper than an EV conversion based on my calcs and provide a useful range of well over 500 miles per 10 gallons of diesel.

I love EVs. The issue just seems to be with the range. It is limited. Batteries just don't have the energy density that liquid fuels have. Until we go to more of an electrolyte/fuel cell model of fuel distribution, I think fossil fuels/algae/vegie oil is here to stay.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> A 20KW (40KW Peak) engine for this kit for instance costs me about $1500 and runs around 90% efficient at 120V. Motor controller costs $1000 and handles 600 Amps.


To avoid confusion, I wouldn't call a motor an engine, especially when you're speaking about an internal combustion engine in the same topic......


but by all means, go ahead and design the kit, you won't be the first one that has said they're going to do the same thing before.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Frodus, 

You are right. I should have said motor vice engine. I won't make that mistake again, especially in this crowd.

I get the sense that this might be a worn out topic. Thanks for any help you all can provide. I will post my results here as I get them. I will be making videos of the entire process. It's kinda exciting to be honest. If anyone wants to help, I would gladly accept it. I am in Portsmouth, VA.

Thanks again,

Daniel


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> Hello all.
> 
> This is my first post to this forum so please excuse this post if it happens to be in the wrong section. I am currently in the design and early building phase of a Diesel Electric Hybrid conversion kit for cars and trucks and I am looking to see what kind of market is out here for this kind of product. I have very customized parts that will enable me to compete and beat many true EV conversion kits (I know, blasphemy).
> 
> ...


I suggest you visit some transits companies that have Desiel HEV systems and get some real numbers from them.
have you look at the VIA that has a similar set up.


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> Generator will be 12kw to 15kw and will produce all power required to cruise a vehicle at 90 MPH at rated fuel efficiency.


Nope. 

15kW will get to you to 60 mph in a small car. Even if you have a really light/small car with low rolling resistance tires it will still take about 20kW to cruise at 90 mph. With an average car it's closer to 40kW. 

At 90 mph air resistance is really killer, it really starts to use lots of power.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Bjfreeman, 

thanks for the info. I have never seen this site before but that is the method of hybrid motoring I am working on building. Their pricing is extremely high though, pushing 80k. They use a fixed gear box attached to the electric motor which appears to be a fixed ratio, vice a traditional transmission. While a direct drive system provides excellent torque, it does require massive energy to power it instead of using a gear set to amplify torque.

Charliehorse55, 

Thanks for your input. These figures were based on some EVs I used as test vehicles in order to get some "real world" data. Current draw at 90 mph at 120 volts with radio, ac, and lights was just under 120 amps. This was with regular lead batteries in a Mitsubishi Eclipse EV. Electric motor was attached to a manual transmission (and an IVT once the owner and I reach a license agreement). If you have different data, I certainly welcome it. 40kw is a lot of power, roughly 50 hp. I know that running a car at 90 mph takes some power, but 50 hp sounds high. Based on my calculations, it would take about 31 hp to travel at 40.2 m/s (90 mph). 31 hp is equal to 23KW. I actually believe this might be a little high, but I may be wrong. I plan on using 15kw generator on the engine for a safety margin against these issues.

My diesel engine has plenty of power available (pushing 35 hp at 3600 rpm). I overpowered the diesel engine compared to the generator for just this reason. If my calcs are wrong, or the real world gets in the way, I can simply just adjust the gen size and compensate. If needed, I have a 3 cylinder turbocharged diesel that can put out over 50 HP, which is what I had planned on using for my F150 supercrew conversion. It is much heavier though so I would rather keep it for the truck.

I really appreciate your comments and welcome them all, good or bad. This will help me in the long run make a better product.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

charliehorse55 said:


> Nope.
> 
> 15kW will get to you to 60 mph in a small car. Even if you have a really light/small car with low rolling resistance tires it will still take about 20kW to cruise at 90 mph. With an average car it's closer to 40kW.
> 
> At 90 mph air resistance is really killer, it really starts to use lots of power.


great idea, i hope you will have success and will be able to show us pictures and more information.

There is also no need to make the cruising speed so fast...If the genset can provide 20kw continuous @ 50mpg you have a winner for 60mph cruising. If they are cruising at 75mph, the genset may need to kick-up higher to 30kw but with 40kw peak, the genset should be able to do that for certain periods of time.

The system is a true series hybrid, however this system could be installed in different types of cars. I personally think the prius is one of the ugliest cars on the road. I have thought about transplanting the driveline into a more beautiful car, but I havnt won the lottery just yet....


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> Charliehorse55,
> 
> Thanks for your input. These figures were based on some EVs I used as test vehicles in order to get some "real world" data. Current draw at 90 mph at 120 volts with radio, ac, and lights was just under 120 amps. This was with regular lead batteries in a Mitsubishi Eclipse EV. Electric motor was attached to a manual transmission (and an IVT once the owner and I reach a license agreement). If you have different data, I certainly welcome it. 40kw is a lot of power, roughly 50 hp. I know that running a car at 90 mph takes some power, but 50 hp sounds high. Based on my calculations, it would take about 31 hp to travel at 40.2 m/s (90 mph). 31 hp is equal to 23KW. I actually believe this might be a little high, but I may be wrong. I plan on using 15kw generator on the engine for a safety margin against these issues.
> 
> ...


There is absolutely no way that data is correct, there must have been a mistake. Many people on these forums record between 200 and 300 Wh/mile as an average power consumption. If you claim to be using 15kW to go 90 mph you are claiming an energy efficiency of 160 Wh/ mile. I highly doubt you would manage to achieve higher efficiency than everyone else on this forum while travelling at 90 mph. 

I have written a simulator that factors in air resistance, rolling resistance, drivetrain inefficiencies as well as many other lesser factors (IE Air temperature). Using the figures for a BMW 328i (which is a car that gets 6.5 L/100km), I get 40kW required to cruise at 90 mph. Even if I use the parameters of the Insight hybrid (The most efficient mass produced car ever made) I still get around 21kW required for cruise.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

The reason I am trying for 90 MPH at 50 MPG is I want to design a vehicle powertrain that is "Americanized". We all know, or I suspect we do, that Amercan's love performance and ease of use. 

I know how I drive, roughly 75 MPH on most highways so I just want to make sure that it can handle that speed with that type of fuel economy. The EPA tests all cars on circle tracks at 55 MPH. IMHO, this is not really reasonable with most states having 60 MPH or better on their highways.

Daniel


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Charilehorse, 

Thank you for your data. I will recalc my figures. What figures do you get for 50, 60, 70, and 80 MPH? Car will be on the road in May/June with just electric motors, batteries, and controller.

Anyone else care to chime in with their real world results?

Thanks again.

Daniel


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

For the BMW 328i:

0.29 Cd
2.08 m^2 area
1600 kg weight
0.01 Rolling resistance
25C air temperature
0.88 Drivetrain efficiency (direct drive with AC motor, for DC motor + tranny closer to 0.75)
500W of accessory load (not dependent on speed)


```
km/hr   kW
1	0.55
5	0.75
10	1.00
15	1.27
20	1.56
25	1.87
30	2.22
35	2.60
40	3.03
45	3.51
50	4.05
55	4.65
60	5.33
65	6.08
70	6.91
75	7.84
80	8.86
85	9.99
90	11.22
95	12.57
100	14.04
105	15.64
110	17.38
115	19.26
120	21.28
125	23.47
130	25.81
135	28.32
140	31.00
145	33.86
150	36.91
155	40.16
160	43.60
165	47.25
170	51.11
175	55.19
180	59.50
```


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks. We shall see the results soon enough. 

Based on your calculations, my 40KW motors will not handle the requirements as set forth by you. I was looking at a 11" Netgain before I started working with the permanent magnet motors. I left the netgain due to no regen braking available. The permanent magnet motors I found do have the ability. Looks like I may just combine a few in series. What motor would you suggest to enable my vehicle to reach 90MPH?


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> Thanks. We shall see the results soon enough.
> 
> Based on your calculations, my 40KW motors will not handle the requirements as set forth by you. I was looking at a 11" Netgain before I started working with the permanent magnet motors. I left the netgain due to no regen braking available. The permanent magnet motors I found do have the ability. Looks like I may just combine a few in series. What motor would you suggest to enable my vehicle to reach 90MPH?


If you are looking at AC, try Evo-electric or Remy (expensive when purchased individually, cheaper perhaps if you can get a contract to purchase a larger number at one time). 

Keep in mind you will need a fairly high voltage pack to be able to overcome back EMF at those high speeds. AC motors tend to like battery packs in the 600-900V range.


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## 0102 cobradude (Mar 1, 2012)

hi green e just thought i could let you know my findings on the veg oil thing .i did the full biodiesel thing i had peak oil two years ago ! went thru about 1000 gal of methanol @ 20% (formula) thats lots of oil (fryer oil) will say is cleaner burning ,not the same b.t.u. but does drop pyros 200 degrees & sure makes them run quieter. simply could not get the product . always emty bins !!


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> Bjfreeman,
> 
> thanks for the info. I have never seen this site before but that is the method of hybrid motoring I am working on building. Their pricing is extremely high though, pushing 80k. They use a fixed gear box attached to the electric motor which appears to be a fixed ratio, vice a traditional transmission. While a direct drive system provides excellent torque, it does require massive energy to power it instead of using a gear set to amplify torque.


if you read some of the threads about builds, you will see the mostly driver in one gear. the exception is starting on an incline.
via are also using a 400KW motor, The Delorean uses a slightly higher Power.


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks for the comment. So here is the question I pose then:

What is the advantage of using a larger electric motor with 1 gear reduction (other than simplicity) vice a smaller electric motor and a transmission that is designed for an electric motor?

After much research and speaking with many companies about the one gear system, I have come to the conclusion that many set ups use the one gear system because there is a lack of transmissions designed for EV use. While this may be reality, it doesn't seem to be a good enough reason not to make the system better. While IVTs are new in use, though not new in theory and testing, it just seems to me that using this set up is better than running an electric motor through a one gear set at a speed that may not be in its optimum efficiency band.

My thought process was to build a system that gets rated gas mileage at higher speeds. Who wants to drive 60 mph on a highway that has a speed limit of 70 or 75? I am sure a few folks do just because that is the way it has always been done. It just seems easier to accomplish this with the ability to adjust the gearing system of the transmission to vehicle speed AND electric motor amperage requirements.

If I am way off on my thinking here, please calibrate.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

I went with the Direct drive becuase i Split the power between wheels. a motor for each.
In My application I need 500-600 hp to move 10,000 lbs up a long hill, like mountian passes.
I don't think there is a right or wrong, more what are your parameters and what best fits them.

here are the 
actual volt powertrain
Pictorial of volt powertrain
Pictorial of Prius powerTrain

they arrive at the same solution differently


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

GreenEnergyConversions said:


> What is the advantage of using a larger electric motor with 1 gear reduction (other than simplicity) vice a smaller electric motor and a transmission that is designed for an electric motor?


Not having a transmission allows:

-Higher efficiency
-Lower Cost
-Lower Weight
-Simplicity

Most manufacturers reduce the size of the motor by allowing very high RPM. This requires a very high input voltage to the controller to overcome back EMF, but since OEMs generally use high voltage systems this is not an issue. 

Transmissions on an EV are a bad idea. They are only relevant in the hobbyist community where you have DC motors (and their limited RPM range). 

Tesla's cars all have redlines around 16,000 RPM!


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## 0102 cobradude (Mar 1, 2012)

hi green i will say i like the idea of direct drive simple light weight less junk to break & yes big motor big controler works for me, as well i believe in the near future fuel cells will could be jell or liquid form or ??? a123 packs ?? there is no question whithin 10 years batterys will change a lot . is far as diesel or biodiesel its not a homegrown product , nothing you or i can make ! but we can harvest sun/wind/ water and is endless and clean . however lithium is very pricey . i try to look at lithium as future fuel storage . not part of vehicle!


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

You can absolutely make bio diesel at home. While I agree that capturing sun and wind is available, it isn't viable on small scale at this point. Solar panels are only 20%ish efficient at best and way too expensive. I don't think batteries will ever be the future. I think super capacitors are the future, or fuel cells that exchange electrolytes.

Using the heat of the sun to make steam and turn a turbine is much better than solar panels IMHO. This can be done much cheaper than solar panels. A 7kw solar panel set runs 24k+ while a 12kw steam turbine/engine set up is only about 10k with the same or better efficiency.

I am still not sure why running direct drive is better. I just see adding an IVT between the wheels and motor just seems better to me. I guess it is a matter of opinion at this point. Instead of a IVT, maybe just a customized 2-3 speed transmission to amplify the torque characteristics of the motor. Somthing like the old 2 speed rear ends that some of the big trucks used to use. I just have a hard time imagining only having one speed reduction, when you can have multiple options, one for acceleration (0-20mph), one for city(20-45mph), one for highway(>45mph).

I have decided to use a traditional AC motor set up though. I am thinking the AC55 or AC30. Both seem to have great characteristics and are solid motors. I though that the 20KW BLDC set up would be nice as well, but the premise was on using a transmission and overpowering the motor to peak levels during acceleration.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_Using the heat of the sun to make steam and turn a turbine is much better than solar panels IMHO. This can be done much cheaper than solar panels. A 7kw solar panel set runs 24k+ while a 12kw steam turbine/engine set up is only about 10k with the same or better efficiency.

_*You have got to be kidding*
You will be very lucky to get 12% with a small steam turbine

Besides I have seen some of the guys talking about solar at $1 a watt - or $7k for your 7Kw solar
And that does not include the maintenance associated with all of those bits spinning around


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## charliehorse55 (Sep 23, 2011)

Every mechanical component has losses. Adding a transmission decreases the overall efficiency of the system. It also adds 50kg or so of weight, and adds more complexity to the car. 

It really isn't a matter of opinion, there is a reason ALL commercial EVs use direct drive. 

Tesla Roadster/Model S/Model X
Chevy Volt
Nissan Leaf
GM EV1
Toyota RAV4 EV v1 & v2
Fisker Karma
etc..


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## subcooledheatpump (Mar 5, 2012)

Whats more with an AC motor, you can get more low end torque without actually using more power. Since torque in an AC motor is related to current, not voltage. 

Power of course is voltage X current. With a PWM drive, you can get a lower frequency, therefore lower impedance and high currents even with lower pulse widths (lower output voltages)

Using a transmission just means you'd have to spin up the transmission which takes power, plus you'd need to apply a higher voltage to get the motor to spin fast enough


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## GreenEnergyConversions (Mar 13, 2012)

Duncan, 

Please provide me the link to $1/watt solar panels for sale. I am ready to write a check. I have been considering solar panels for some time. Best price I have found is 24k, before batteries for energy storage for rainy days. At $1 a watt, I would start my own business installing them and selling the electricity back to the homeowner at market rates.

As for efficiency, it would depend on what type of system you use. Lets say for instance you use an ORC type set up. The heat transfer medium would be either R134A or R245. With the crit temp/pressure what they are, about 11% is the best efficiency you can get. Now, if you use a refigerant blend, it is very conceivable to get 25%+. Turbines are very efficient, pushing 75% in many cases, higher with a vacuum in the condenser.


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## 0102 cobradude (Mar 1, 2012)

hi green yes you can make your own biodiesel ! and yes i have done thousands of litres , but again emty bins , i just picked up my 6"x6" cells 2000 watts worth $800 (ebay) d.i.y. and as far as wind just finished up my p.m.a. 3000 watt (old ac 5 hp 3 phase) . dont get me wrong i like my diesels , i have the cummins& wife has duramax but it is now $ 170 a fill and from what they said in fortmac canada last time i was there they promised me they wont be droping prices any time soon ??


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Green

This site was listed on one of the other threads

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

Looks good - I may think about some for me - after I get my damn car on the road


_Turbines are very efficient, pushing 75% in many cases,_

The MAXIMUM efficiency you can get out of a heat engine is related to the input temperature and the rejection temperature
Max eff = 1- (T-cold/T-hot)

T-cold has got to equal/greater than ambient + a bit - call it 320K
T-hot ~ max 640K 
Gives 50%

to get to 75% theoretical you need 1280K input temp - at that temperature Titanium is starting to get a little soft!

Little engines and turbines don't come anywhere near those efficiencies because of heat loses and friction
Big ones (multi megawatt) can come closer to theoretical efficiencies but anything past 40% is simply not doable

The 75% you have seen is probably 75% of theoretical so for 640K hot and 320K cold it would be achieving 75% of 50% - 37.5%
A big turbine with re-gen can probably get close - a small one - no way!


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## Zoggthefantastic (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi there. As stated, many people have this idea, including me! I did a load of research earlier this year. 

The main limiting factor of a series hybrid being that you have both the inneficiency of the ICE plus the losses of the generation process to contend with. 

Of course it can and has been done
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

I highly recommend you read the white paper that can be accesed by following the link on that page 
http://www.tzev.com/files/rxt-g_acp_white_paper_range_extending_trailers.pdf

I recommend you follow the link on the page yourself though as there is more information available.


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## qryptiq (Dec 29, 2012)

This is all very interesting. Good luck.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

> hey i was reading your thread about the diesel hybrid kit, VERY interesting read.
> you said you are going with rear wheel drive and i was thinking, since you are going to have a diff you may as well use your diff as the gearbox, since you are going to have it anyway you dont lose anything.
> all youd need to do is have a way to move the drive shaft closer or further away from the centre. as you move it away from the centre the diff will speed up.
> it would work the same way as a cvt/ivt


i wrote this as a email to him but then thought id share


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## qryptiq (Dec 29, 2012)

If all the hardware needed to be in the back, how much space would be required? Measurement-wise?


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## toaster6891 (23 d ago)

Hello everyone, I understand this is a old thread, but I stumbled upon this thread in gathering information about a I guess a line of thought I had about my project vehicle. I am curious if the original poster has gotten any traction on his endeavor. If not, I would like to try and get in contact with them about where you left off. Thank you in advance for any reply.


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