# EV Car Conversion too expensive



## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

After spending some time reading threads and asking some questions, I had started to put a checklist together of what I would need to do my first conversion so I would have an idea what the costs would be.

My initial thought was to try and build something light weight so I would not need so many batteries (48V pack), but several people told me that they would not build a car with less than 96V pack .. which more than doubled the weight of the batteries .. AND required a more expensive controller and DC/DC converter and charger and who knows what else.

FLA batteries would cost almost three grand and someone told me they would need to be replaced in a couple years. I was also told that I will not be happy with FLA and that I should just jump right to LiFePO4 as they are lighter and last longer (but more money for BMS and charger) up front before I can even drive the car). It would be impossible to justify spending 6K or more and months of time on a "junk car" when it would take years to make that back.

Unless there is a much cheaper way to do a conversion it will forever be out of reach for me. This might all change if the truck I drive throws a rod or something but no payments means my cost per mile is about .14 without spending a dime. So the people that told me not to bother with low voltage motor and a few FLA batteries have in essence saved me over 6K since I will not bother with conversion at all. I will continue to read threads here and learn but for now the dream has been squashed. Even thinking of starting small to learn was a waste of time and money and since I don't have enough money to go big, I will not go at all.

I welcome constructive encouragement, but I have pretty much given up.
dmac257


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## JimDanielson (Oct 19, 2008)

-Build your own control (cost only ~$200)
-Marine deep cycle at 96v will cost <1k (although, yes, you will not be too thrilled about the range)
-Golf kart batteries at carquest would give decently good performance and cost under $100 a piece, but they are 8 volt each
-buy a used forklift motor for 200-$300
-DIY dc-dc converter with PC power supply, or just get an extra deep cycle and set it to charge when the main pack charges

And do not get a "junk car," wait till a deal shows up on craigslist. I get a Porsche 924 in really good condition for $500 because it didnt drive. People still wanted the broken parts from it and I ended up getting $500 for parts


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

What, $500 is more than you are willing to spend? That's what mine cost....

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34523&highlight=convert+metro

First off, you need to know what your requirements are. If you need over 50 miles and highway speeds- forget it, it's not within a tight budget. If you only need about 35 mph and 10 miles range, you got it made. What's your budget? A majority of people on here have a few coins to rub together and like to run cars that perform similarly to ICE. I can't blame them, I want that too: I just don't have the money. I think guys like us offend them because we give EV's a "bad name" by driving glorified golf carts. I say ignore the chatter- we have just as much right as anyone to drive gas free! Besides, all the people I talk to about my car realize that you get what you pay for. I say better to drive an NEV than to pollute the air with a gas burner. If everyone drove one, we'd be much better off than all of us sitting back and wishing we had $8-20K+ to drive an electric car.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Find the right small car (free is good), buy a used forklift motor, FLA batteries for the first year's use, (as we kill the first pack anyway), Alltrax controller (buy new), make your own adapter plate and coupler, drive the hell out of it and have fun.
Run 72 volts. Buy a charger on ebay etc.

You can do this for under $2000.00.

No need to break the bank.

A bunch of us have and now have enjoyed their cars for many miles.

10,600 in my case....the grin is fun........


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

vpoppv said:


> What, $500 is more than you are willing to spend? That's what mine cost....
> 
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34523&highlight=convert+metro
> 
> First off, you need to know what your requirements are. If you need over 50 miles and highway speeds- forget it, it's not within a tight budget. If you only need about 35 mph and 10 miles range, you got it made. What's your budget? A majority of people on here have a few coins to rub together and like to run cars that perform similarly to ICE. I can't blame them, I want that too: I just don't have the money. I think guys like us offend them because we give EV's a "bad name" by driving glorified golf carts. I say ignore the chatter- we have just as much right as anyone to drive gas free! Besides, all the people I talk to about my car realize that you get what you pay for. I say better to drive an NEV than to pollute the air with a gas burner. If everyone drove one, we'd be much better off than all of us sitting back and wishing we had $8-20K+ to drive an electric car.


MY requirements are more modest than the STATE requirements.
Per CT DMV:
standstill to 31mph in less than 13.5 seconds (shouldn't be a problem)
maintain 15.5mph on 10% grade
start moving forward and reverse on 20% grade
maintain speed of 49.5mph for 5 minutes
minimum range while using all vital accessories is 34miles (test course)
meet the above after no more than 10 hours of charge
onboard or portable charger use standard 115v or 220v 
charger will have automatic recharge controls
drive system electrically isolated (electrical safety stuff)
must have standard restraints and airbags etc
battery vent needs flame barrier
ventilation shall maintain less than 4% H2 (duh) or non H2 gassing battery
must have a state of charge meter (another duh)
battery disconnect operated from driver position
must be capable of being parked for 8 hours in any temp
between -13F and 122F and still operate at those temps
cannot exceed GVWR
battery box will have drain holes and a separate collection for
spilled electrolyte
must have over temperture protection on motor
must have splash guard for motor
cables cant interfer with steering (duh)
vacuum system for brake tested to 18 to 20 inch pounds
with low vacuum light/buzzer for operator
Cab heater and defroster must be fully functional
Labeling of location of kill switch control highly visible inside the cab
Kill switch must be operable from the exterior of vehicle for emergency
personell
exterior of vehicle clearly marked as electric vehicle with location of
external kill switch controls

and all this in addition to any normal safety inspection stuff like brakes,
turn signals, horn, headlights, parking brake etc

any idea if this is possible at all,
dmac257


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## crazybry79 (Jun 15, 2010)

Judast Priest! CT doesn't screw around! Wi requires a VIN number, a valid title, and insurance! Sounds like you need to either register your car at uncle Jibo's house out of state! 

OK, I'm only doing my first conversion, so don't take what I say as gold when it comes to the speed, range, and grades requirements.....

My system is going to clear just under $500 tenativly - but I'm on a 48V system. That will not work for you, I can assure.

BUT, realistically, and if you're thrifty, I don't see why you can't put together a passable vehicle for <$2000, including cost of car.

Like I said, I am a novice myself, _so outside opinion welcome here_, but if you keep your voltage at 80, you could possibly us an EV100 system out of a forklift (good for 24V - 80V). Most matirial handling places have some older use equipment they would be willing to part with around the $500 range. That covers your controller, motor, pot, gauges, some cabeling, and some misc odds and ends. Sell the scrap to get some of your cash back (+/- half).
Spend $500 +/- on a decent, _popula_r car (popular, so the ICE and related components are resellable.) Recoupe +/- 50% there.
Spend $1000 on batteries +/-, and you've roughly got $1500 into the whole thing. For a couple bucks more, you can buy a heftier controller and a couple more batteries.

Could you do it for $500? Probably not without Uncle Jimbos out of state registration. 
Could you do it for under $2000? I belive so.

If $2000 sounds high, just think, it's not really all too bad when its $100 here, and $200 there.
There's deals out there, as I have found, just like others have as well. But trust me, no one is going to hunt you down, looking to give away a forklift and 28 yellow top ultimas....Seek, and ye shall find!

Defroster/heater....try autozone. They have one that goes on your dash that plugs into a cigarette lighter - $19.95

Having problems getting 49.5 MPH? Well, get a touch creative. Drop your tire size a bit, so the car goes slower, but the speedo reads faster.


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

jimbo12d said:


> -Build your own control (cost only ~$200)
> -Marine deep cycle at 96v will cost <1k (although, yes, you will not be too thrilled about the range)
> -Golf kart batteries at carquest would give decently good performance and cost under $100 a piece, but they are 8 volt each
> -buy a used forklift motor for 200-$300
> ...


jimbo,
Where can i get plans to build my own control? I looked at the open source controller from Paul and Sabrina but they sell kit for $600 and I still have to put it together. I didnt see any plans for DIY on their site. Can you point me someplace for this $200 controller?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Have a read of my posts on the revolt thread here:
And my videos here : www.evbmw.com

I built my controller (currently running at 120v , 500amps) for about 250 euros.


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

Buy someone else's project:

5,600USD:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1994-s10-evermont-conversion-6500-44937.html

6,500 USD - be sure to check it out, super shape, and later when you want if you put in litium, it would be an awesome car
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sale-1993-toyota-pickup-ev-make-43366.html

So there you go, two cars, ready to go for the 6k mark ...

there are others out there to be had for higher and lower prices.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can sympathise about the cost but only partly. I only have a four figure salary from part time teaching to live on so I can only work with the minimum of budgets.

My donor MR2 mk2 cost me £300 and is in spotless condition with no rust being a Jap import. The previous owner blew the engine but I still managed to sell off parts and weighed bits in to recover the cost of the donor so it is a free car.

Parts can be got cheaply if you persist in looking and make good friends who are also working on their conversions. I got quite a few parts gifted to me or very cheaply from fellow converters. I also found some cheap parts on Ebay and so I have two, maybe three, EV projects on the go at the moment to use the parts effectively.

My stumbling block is the cost of batteries but that is because I am adamant about needing a safe 70 mile range for my commute to work. That is only because it is very unlikely that the college will let me charge up while I am there.

To reduce that cost I am seriously looking at building a very lightweight, motorbike weight, reverse trike for the commute. It should reduce battery costs by a third and save me having to mess with car essentials like demisting, heaters, vacuum brakes, proper dash board, etc.

There are ways to keep cost down but it take effort, like spending the time to make the controller kit. Even then, there is plenty of help on that front from the likes of Jack and others who have made them.


Finally, don't be put off. Spend your time looking and obtaining esential parts, motor, controller, etc. to go in your donor and also take time to find the right donor. Leave the batteries until last as things change and prices will vary and there maybe deals to be had.
The chap I wrote about in Chit Chat in the '£30k toaster' thread had been selling off loads of new 200ah LiFeP04 cells last year as he over estimated and bought nearly twice as many and bought them too soon to use. A lot of people got their batteries from him at a good price last year.


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Good gravy, I doubt most ICE cars in Oklahoma can pass those requirements!! Some of those requirements can't even be tested, unless they have a freezer and an oven they can put your car in. In my personal experience though, your local DMV office staff will be quite different than looking up requirements online. But while those requirements are pretty high, there is nothing there that is unattainable. In a way, it's kind of nice to have the requirements laid out for you so you can pick the right parts for the conversion. Perseverance and patience will get you there....


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

280z1975 said:


> Buy someone else's project:
> 
> 5,600USD:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1994-s10-evermont-conversion-6500-44937.html
> ...


LOL .. I say "conversion too expensive" and instead of telling how to do conversion cheap.. you say spend the same money on someone elses done deal. I dont have that kind of money. I might be able to spend $200US at a time but absolutly NO WAY to get $2000US or more at same time for big purchase. Even though I know I would save $1000 or more a year in gas. I only have a few extra dollars a month for a conversion.


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

vpoppv said:


> Good gravy, I doubt most ICE cars in Oklahoma can pass those requirements!! Some of those requirements can't even be tested, unless they have a freezer and an oven they can put your car in. In my personal experience though, your local DMV office staff will be quite different than looking up requirements online..


Those requirements are from a written checklist distributed to inspecting stations in response to someone trying to get the first one passed. The cars all have to do a "SAE J227a section 6 selected driving pattern test" so I am assuming that after hiring a flat bed to take the car to the inspecting station and hopfully passing the initial physical safety inspections.. the tester takes it out for a road test on a predetermined road course. Might be worth a drive out to talk to an inspector and maybe following a test run to "inspect the track"


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

Ok, my first thought was to joke around and say "move"; but in all seriousness that is messed up. Why make it so incredibly hard in your state to register an electric vehicle?? Especially considering that in some states all you have to do is check a box and you're done. In all honesty, my next call would be to a Congressman. With all the hoopla over the Gulf spill, now is a good time to hit up legislators about going green, and making it easier to register an electric car is a step in that direction. I'm all for safety, but how is requiring 34 miles on a charge and 50 mph for 5 minutes a safety issue? In my town, that would mean you have to be breaking the speed limit for 5 minutes straight. And I still think it wouldn't hurt to try your local office- because remember THOSE are the people you will be dealing with. And one final thought is that my town actually has an ordinance that says that any vehicle like golf carts and riding lawn mowers can be driven in town without registration. This is fairly recent: it was enacted when the price of gas shot up. It might be worth looking into that as well. Frankly, I would just build the car and worry about that stuff later. Fighting now when you don't have the car yet is a tougher battle....


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## 280z1975 (Oct 2, 2008)

dmac257 said:


> It would be impossible to justify spending 6K or more and months of time on a "junk car" when it would take years to make that back.
> 
> Unless there is a much cheaper way to do a conversion it will forever be out of reach for me.


Dmac257 ... in you orginal post you quoted the 6k figure ... and as far as being to expensive at 6k ... that is SO cheap ... if I was in the US I would have bought the truck (or I already didn't have a car to convert).

Electric cars are not cheap to build (depending on the requirements). If you really can't afford a car then consider a scotter to convert, with a bit of work you can get one built for under 800 USD, but it really depends on what you want.

yes a conversion is quite expensive, but it's no more than a new (or good used) car. So what is wrong with taking a loan you can afford to have to convert a car rather than buy an ICE.

As with most Green things (wind, solar power, etc), it's a very large up front cost, but the savings are long term ... that 6,500 USD truck is a DEAL and would be a great investment.

Franky, without the ability to spend 6k, you won't be able to build an ICE equivalent car. I'm in the same boat as you ... I also don't have 6k (or the 15k I need for my requirements) to build my car, but once my work car is paid off, my personal business is more stable, I'm so going to build my car and have that EV grin every day!


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

Contact Bob Rice of the CT chapter of the Electric Auto Association. He's done more than a few conversions on the cheap and can probably hook you up with some cheap batteries. I'm sure he can also help you with the registration requirements.

His contact info can be found here:
http://www.eaaev.org/eaachapters.html#CT


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Convert a bicycle to ev.It is inexpensive and good experience for learning the mechanics and electrical design.
Regards,
John


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## DavidP (Jun 9, 2010)

I hope we don't scare off 'dmac257' in his efforts to come up with an economical EV conversion
I would like to think its possible ... if you take your time and search around for the right car and components 
I hope to come under the $2000 mark with my conversion
I'm converting a very small car ... a 1958 Isetta ... using a D & D electric motor (almost new. 8.9HP) that I found on Kijiji for only $200 ... 
I only paid $1000 for the Isetta ... a real basket case ... but the extra parts that I won't need for my EV will be worth almost that much selling them off on ebay ... 
I've got alot of minor items that I will have to purchase yet ... but the only major expenses, costing the most $$$, will be the battery's and controller ...

I hope some others that have been sucessfull in their conversions will give him some positive encouragement as well ... 

I'm sure it can be done ... at least I hope so ...


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

I would love to convert an Isetta!You need this guy!
http://www.groupharrington.com/ev/
Regards,
John


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

dmac257 said:


> LOL .. I say "conversion too expensive" and instead of telling how to do conversion cheap.. you say spend the same money on someone elses done deal. I dont have that kind of money. I might be able to spend $200US at a time but absolutly NO WAY to get $2000US or more at same time for big purchase. Even though I know I would save $1000 or more a year in gas. I only have a few extra dollars a month for a conversion.


The truth of the matter is that at this point, an electric drive solution is more expensive than the equivalent ICE project, period. Electric is not cheaper.

If electric was cheaper to build and operate, we'd all be driving electric cars by now. For now, the reason to go electric is philisophical or just to see if you can, not economic. This will change eventually, but we're not there yet.

Eric


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Life comes at you faster than you THINK!
When China and India outbid us for oil and Iran bombs everybody else,electric cars will seem like a real bargain!
Regards,
John


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

sunworksco said:


> Life comes at you faster than you THINK!
> When China and India outbid us for oil and Iran bombs everybody else,electric cars will seem like a real bargain!
> Regards,
> John


Yep, I said something pretty similar 15 years ago. We're still here... Want to see which one of us can hold their breath longer? 

Eric


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

sunworksco said:


> I would love to convert an Isetta!You need this guy!
> http://www.groupharrington.com/ev/
> Regards,
> John


It's too bad I sold my non-runnning Messerschmitt KR200 back in the '70s. It could have been a fun conversion. The paint scheme was like this one.

Eric


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

280z1975 said:


> > Dmac257 ... in you orginal post you quoted the 6k figure ... and as far as being to expensive at 6k ... that is SO cheap ... if I was in the US I would have bought the truck (or I already didn't have a car to convert).
> >
> > Electric cars are not cheap to build (depending on the requirements). If you really can't afford a car then consider a scotter to convert, with a bit of work you can get one built for under 800 USD, but it really depends on what you want.
> 
> ...


That was the reason I started this thread. People told me that I needed 6k-10K to convert a car. Those same people are experienced at conversion and driving EV and while I value their input, all it seemed to do was get me down on the idea. Their advice was more of a performance car than a learn to build and save money car.

I had pretty much given up, but other people told me that the entry level EV conversion can be done for far less. AND that since I am not buying an assembled kit that the money isn't all at the same time. I might have to spend 4K total to get an EV legal on the road.. but it will have to be in little chunks spread over time.


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## dmac257 (Jun 30, 2010)

peggus said:


> Contact Bob Rice of the CT chapter of the Electric Auto Association. He's done more than a few conversions on the cheap and can probably hook you up with some cheap batteries. I'm sure he can also help you with the registration requirements.
> 
> His contact info can be found here:
> http://www.eaaev.org/eaachapters.html#CT


Thanks,

I sent off an E-mail to him .. gonna see if he has more current information or workarounds.

dmac257


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dmac257 said:


> That was the reason I started this thread. People told me that I needed 6k-10K to convert a car. Those same people are experienced at conversion and driving EV and while I value their input, all it seemed to do was get me down on the idea. Their advice was more of a performance car than a learn to build and save money car.
> 
> I had pretty much given up, but other people told me that the entry level EV conversion can be done for far less. AND that since I am not buying an assembled kit that the money isn't all at the same time. I might have to spend 4K total to get an EV legal on the road.. but it will have to be in little chunks spread over time.


 
there is a lot of usefull information here at DIY electric car, but there are also people that think a budget EV is a toy project and makes "real EVs" look bad, but Im proof that it can be done, and Can have good range and speed, iIdrive my ev 35 miles round trip to work 5 days a week, and hit the highway at 65 for about 6 miles of the way. all it takes is a good build plan, and time, 1 or 2 pieces at a time and you will be driving your newly converted EV too.


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

Build it light,source out the lightest motor,build it with a minimal battery pack,build it for less!
Regards,
John


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## Watt-a-mezz (May 20, 2009)

Hi dmac257. Havent posted for a while here. Due to health issues I left my
project truck(1988 Nissan pickup)sitting in the driveway. I did get to drive it but the batteries died prematurely. All it needs is batteries and a good pack charger. I know what you mean by too expensive. Over a two year
period I have about 6k invested. But when I feel like selling it and forgetting it I remember what it was like to drive, and I am back into it again. Nothing like it, so start small, a piece at a time, when the first test drive comes it will be worth it. Good luck Watt


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Watt-a-mezz said:


> Hi dmac257. Havent posted for a while here. Due to health issues I left my
> project truck(1988 Nissan pickup)sitting in the driveway. I did get to drive it but the batteries died prematurely. All it needs is batteries and a good pack charger. I know what you mean by too expensive. Over a two year
> period I have about 6k invested. But when I feel like selling it and forgetting it I remember what it was like to drive, and I am back into it again. Nothing like it, so start small, a piece at a time, when the first test drive comes it will be worth it. Good luck Watt


I find most of these projects to be more emotional than practical. My V8 914 project has been going on for 20 years with 3 major rebuilds/upgrades totalling about $30k, and the car currently waiting for the next round. Pieces collected over time, not too much paid all at once. When it's sorted out, with a 0 - 100 mph time around 11 seconds (crudely measured a few years ago by a friend in the passenger seat) and go-kart handling, it makes dealing with the endless project a little easier. Knowing what I know today, I could probably do it again for about $10-12k.

I am trying to direct my EV conversion towards the practical, so I'm tending towards off the shelf parts and less creative solutions. It needs to be more of a daily driver, but "city car" performance isn't going to cut it for me. 

Once I bought the lithium batteries for my sailboat conversion earlier this year, the possibilities for better EV car conversions as compared to 15 years ago led me back here. So the new "box" of EV parts has started to fill, I'm just here to learn and share and see how far our "hobby" has evolved.

It's cool to hang out with people that are literally building their dreams...

Eric


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## mhud (Oct 19, 2009)

I've spent 12.5k on mine so far because I have highway speed & medium range requirements. I am not very skilled, so some of that money is from repair costs on the donor car. 

I spent only $1,000 on 120V of 100AH AGM batteries, they were manufacturer's 2nd, so maybe they're not quite 100AH. I am having trouble keeping them balanced but they do move the car around OK as long as I keep them from getting too unbalanced. The idea is that I will abuse this pack, and once I know how to treat batteries I might buy a second set of lead acids. After four or five years, I may try lithium, but for now I'll spread the cost of the lead-acid charger, monitoring, and balancing hardware over a few sets of batteries. 

You might like Forkenswift -- it's a great low-budget conversion the grand total so far is just under $1,000. http://forkenswift.com/

As long as you are willing to put in a lot of work, you can keep the cost down. I am on the lazy end of the DIY spectrum, I've found.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

billhac said:


> there is a lot of usefull information here at DIY electric car, but there are also people that think a budget EV is a toy project and makes "real EVs" look bad, but Im proof that it can be done, and Can have good range and speed, iIdrive my ev 35 miles round trip to work 5 days a week, and hit the highway at 65 for about 6 miles of the way.


looking at where you 'ended up'.... what is the system nominal voltage, battery pack, motor, and controller? ... and do you charge mid-day while at work?

not trying to give anyone a hard time, just to set reasonable expectations.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> looking at where you 'ended up'.... what is the system nominal voltage, battery pack, motor, and controller? ... and do you charge mid-day while at work?
> 
> not trying to give anyone a hard time, just to set reasonable expectations.


 
well, my car is running on 60v only, i used 60v because it made sense with the amount of batteries that i have in the car, I use floodies that all together cost me 1300 bucks, I did spend a little money on an alltrax axe 7245 from Ebay, it was 250 bucks, but right now my car is using a logisystems 48-72v 700 amp controller, and the alltrax is a spare, but since upgrading the LS 2 months ago, i have not had any trouble from it. my work is 15 miles from my home, and i go 6 miles of that on the highway at 65 which is the speed limit, I can not charge at work as I work construction and there is no power to plug in. my car does have power steering from a pump that i bought from ebay. I am in the process of installing vacuum brakes, but at the moment it has none. I did a thread here about electric AC which is installed and working in my car right now, thanks to a couple of members help. right now today i have spent a grand total of $3600.00 on my EV, and I get highway speeds, which by the way are not 100mph or even 75 in any city, and i get a range of 40 miles, granted that goes down if I use the highway to much, but I have read about people spending $20,000+ on there EV conversion, with lithium packs, and netgain motors and don't get much better than i do right now, yes my batteries are going to wear out faster, but it cost less to replace them and i leave the store with them. The floodies are heave but air shocks are $70 bucks at autozone and will more that support the weight. when some one comes to this site looking to build an ev with a budget, and gets advise like you need 144v and lithium batteries, but oh that will cost you 8k just for that, the person looking to convert gets discouraged and stops looking, the advice should be it is ok to start small and upgrade later, but encourage them to build not bewilder them with the cost. I know that most of the conversions were built that way by choice and by people that have the money, but to build a good commuter ev you dont need all of that stuff, I say again get a good plan, know how much you want to spend and stick to that, everything for an ev conversion can usually be purchased locally, just as i did, I am not a mechanic, or EE, just a construction worker with a bit of experience using some tools, and I was out of work for all of the time i was building my EV, I used my unemployment money to build it, but now that I have been back to work for a little while i use it every day, so if I can do it so can anyone else, that is how you bring EVs to the main stream, by showing that it can be done affordable. when i first came to this site looking for answers, i found some, but when comparing the price of a conversion EV to my Ice, I thought I wont save my self money by converting, I can do better just by driving what I have better, but then I saw forkenswift, and then i was hooked. that is how you get the message across, Ben Nelson did it, i did it, so can any one else, affordably. not an Electric race car just a go to work and come home car.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

billhac said:


> well, my car is running on 60v only, i used 60v because it made sense with the amount of batteries that i have in the car, I use floodies that all together cost me 1300 bucks,


how you get 35 miles on 60v worth of FLA is amazing. I spent $1600 on 96v worth of brand new 8vusgchcx and only get a 40 mile max range.




billhac said:


> I have read about people spending $20,000+ on there EV conversion, with lithium packs,


not arguing that... just that you have an option of $1600-2000 worth of lead (for 2-3 years), or $4000-5000 worth of Li (for 8-10 years) as options for batteries if you need 40+ miles. The electric bits might cost from $6000 down to $2000 if you are an excellent ebay-er. I don't see how to do it for much less and have something that is reliable and drivable.

I am not a fan of over-priced conversions, or electric race cars... just looking for reliable realistic transportation. seems to be in the $3000-$8000 range depending on how much new stuff you get, and then up to another $3000 if you go Li instead of Lead, which is cheaper in the long run even though the ante is higher to get in the game.

To have a safe, drivable, 'highway speed', 55+mph, 30-40 mile range car I think you need 96v or more of 100ah (at 1hr rate) batteries, and a 400ah controller MINIMUM. Depending on scroungeability you might get by with a lot of used stuff, but a sub-96v, sub-15hpcontinuous, sub-70hp peak motor ain't gonna cut it.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> how you get 35 miles on 60v worth of FLA is amazing. I spent $1600 on 96v worth of brand new 8vusgchcx and only get a 40 mile max range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
well first of all, i have 410 amp hours of battery power in the car that is how I get the range that i do. the formula right here from this site is WH x miles divided by voltage x dod x PE you do the math, it is a bit less if there are a lot of big hills, but most of Phoenix is flat as far as litium goes, if you ad up the cost of the batteries that I use over 10 years, lead is still cheaper, and i dont have to wait for them, look at it like this, I spent 1300 for 20 105 ah lead batteries, now if they last 2 years that is 2600, then two more years thats 3900in six years I have spent 3900 bucks, and that dont count the BMS that is required to monitor lifepo4s, where is it cheaper, lighter yes, cheaper no. as far as safe, every conversion has to have a safty inspection, so wearher you spend 4000 or 40,000 before it gets registered it has to be safe. I do agree about the speed and as i said I go 65 every morning and after noon. I also said in an earlier post that 500amps was good with 48v, as that is what i started with, and did not have to go up much in voltage. now the difference is that I dident just go with the first thing that was recommended to me, I researched the type of motor that i wanted to use, and for me the bendix generator works well, and i paid 75 bucks for it. so a safe, freeway capable can be done for under 4000 bucks if you plan it that way. Im sure that you had your adaptor plate made at a machine shop, for me to do that was 2000 dollars, for the adaptor and coupler, so I did it my self, just as this site implies. now my car cuts it just fine for any one that drives it here in phoenix, maybe with a fork lift motor you will need a bit more voltage, but then Im not using one of those.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

when someone says conversion on a budget, more times then not they will be looking for a good deal on what ever part they need, controller, converter, what ever, so if you do the research and not just keep up with the jones's a safe reliable freeway capable EV can be done for under 4k, I have done it, along with a lot of other people.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

billhac said:


> well first of all, i have 410 amp hours of battery power in the car that is how I get the range that i do. the formula right here from this site is WH x miles divided by voltage x dod x PE you do the math.... I spent 1300 for 20 105 ah lead batteries, now if they last 2 years that is 2600, then two more years thats 3900in six years I have spent 3900 bucks, and that dont count the BMS that is required to monitor lifepo4s, where is it cheaper, lighter yes, cheaper no.... I do agree about the speed and as i said I go 65 every morning and after noon. I also said in an earlier post that 500amps was good with 48v, as that is what i started with, and did not have to go up much in voltage. now the difference is that I dident just go with the first thing that was recommended to me.... now my car cuts it just fine for any one that drives it here in phoenix, maybe with a fork lift motor you will need a bit more voltage, but then Im not using one of those.


That's a lot of good information and I can do the math.  First of all, I commend you on finding 12V 105Ah batteries for $65 a piece, out the door. That is an exceptional deal, deep cycle 12v 105Ah batteries typically sell for more than $150, even heavily discounted. Your price of $0.05/Wh is hard to compete with. Can you share the source, or is it more of a secret stash thing? If so, I understand.

Let's look at your battery pack. Your 12V 105Ah batteries have a 20hr rating of 1260Wh each. You've got twenty hooked up in a 5S4P configuration giving you a pack that is rated for 420Ah at 60V or 25,200Wh. I don't know your typical DoD, but let's use 80% for now. 25,200 x 0.80 = 20,160Wh usable. I'll assume an average drive time of 60 minutes per charge for the 40 miles which seems ok considering that some of the mileage is done at 65mph. Using a Peukert exponent of 1.25 for typical wet cells, your pack has a 1 hour rating of 11,520Wh at 80% DoD or 192A at 60V. This means that you're averaging 288W/mile, pretty good considering the the time spent on the freeway. 

Even though a lithium pack could be sized to 40% smaller by rated capacity, less than 16kWh, to deliver the same 11,520Wh of usable capacity, you could still buy 5 set of your batteries for the same price as what we all pay for Lithium batteries. Of course, in Los Angeles, 20 12V 105Ah batteries would cost closer to $3000, and the math supports Lithium that much sooner. The other advantage is that the Lithium batteries would weigh less than 400 pounds compared to your 1100 pounds of lead acid and take up less than half the space.

So congrats on your exceptional build, you are a great example of how finding the right deals can make an EV conversion affordable. 

Eric


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ewdysar said:


> That's a lot of good information and I can do the math.  First of all, I commend you on finding 12V 105Ah batteries for $65 a piece, out the door. That is an exceptional deal, deep cycle 12v 105Ah batteries typically sell for more than $150, even heavily discounted. Your price of $0.05/Wh is hard to compete with. Can you share the source, or is it more of a secret stash thing? If so, I understand.
> 
> Let's look at your battery pack. Your 12V 105Ah batteries have a 20hr rating of 1260Wh each. You've got twenty hooked up in a 5S4P configuration giving you a pack that is rated for 420Ah at 60V or 25,200Wh. I don't know your typical DoD, but let's use 80% for now. 25,200 x 0.80 = 20,160Wh usable. I'll assume an average drive time of 60 minutes per charge for the 40 miles which seems ok considering that some of the mileage is done at 65mph. Using a Peukert exponent of 1.25 for typical wet cells, your pack has a 1 hour rating of 11,520Wh at 80% DoD or 192A at 60V. This means that you're averaging 288W/mile, pretty good considering the the time spent on the freeway.
> 
> ...


 
I got them all at sams club, and yes 65 bucks and some changeout the door. they are interstate listed as 105ah with a 140 reserve capacity


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

ewdysar said:


> That's a lot of good information and I can do the math.  First of all, I commend you on finding 12V 105Ah batteries for $65 a piece, out the door. That is an exceptional deal, deep cycle 12v 105Ah batteries typically sell for more than $150, even heavily discounted. Your price of $0.05/Wh is hard to compete with. Can you share the source, or is it more of a secret stash thing? If so, I understand.
> 
> Let's look at your battery pack. Your 12V 105Ah batteries have a 20hr rating of 1260Wh each. You've got twenty hooked up in a 5S4P configuration giving you a pack that is rated for 420Ah at 60V or 25,200Wh. I don't know your typical DoD, but let's use 80% for now. 25,200 x 0.80 = 20,160Wh usable. I'll assume an average drive time of 60 minutes per charge for the 40 miles which seems ok considering that some of the mileage is done at 65mph. Using a Peukert exponent of 1.25 for typical wet cells, your pack has a 1 hour rating of 11,520Wh at 80% DoD or 192A at 60V. This means that you're averaging 288W/mile, pretty good considering the the time spent on the freeway.
> 
> ...


 
I figured it for 300 wh, to get 40miles i do some serious EV driving, start from light at around 300 amps, and accellerate at around 200, but that is kina slow in some spots, so on average my range is an easy 35m, thats why I said between 30 and 40, depending on how i drive.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

billhac said:


> I figured it for 300 wh, to get 40miles i do some serious EV driving, start from light at around 300 amps, and accellerate at around 200, but that is kina slow in some spots, so on average my range is an easy 35m, thats why I said between 30 and 40, depending on how i drive.


Thanks for validating the calculations, your estimate of 300Wh/mile and my result of 288Wh/mile are close enough for government work. 

It's nice to hear that I'm coming that close using only the info that was previously posted. Apparently most of my assumptions were not far off.

Good work on the conversion, billhac. 

Eric


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

I just want to say I really appreciate the plain-piperacks EV conversation going on here. I've been about ready to give up on the electric vehicle idea because even with my modest 72 volt FLA batteries and controls I am looking at another $2,000 investment in Volstrat. With the medical bills we've been having I just don't have the money for that, so I cheaped out and modified the design to install an aircooled VW motor up front.

But I am encouraged by the discussion here and have been considering eventually making my vehicle a hybrid by putting an electric motor inline with the driveshaft, or just going all electric and swap out the ICE.

Whatever I come up with, it's discussions like this one that keep me interested. Thanks!


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

billhac said:


> I got them all at sams club, and yes 65 bucks and some changeout the door. they are interstate listed as 105ah with a 140 reserve capacity


I would typically throw something in here about how Interstate batteries don't have an exceptional reputation for deep cycle lifespans, but if you've got the factory 30 month warranty, the replacement cycle isn't as much of a financial risk. I believe that the free replacement lasts only 12 months (not that hard to get in 200 charge cycles in a year), however, even a pro-rated replacement gets you a new battery at a really great price. EVs have a better chance of exercising the warranty than other applications (like boats or RVs) because of the potential for daily use.

This is a great find for your type of conversion.

Eric


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## martin300 (Nov 1, 2010)

DavidP said:


> I hope we don't scare off 'dmac257' in his efforts to come up with an economical EV conversion
> I would like to think its possible ... if you take your time and search around for the right car and components
> I hope to come under the $2000 mark with my conversion
> I'm converting a very small car ... a 1958 Isetta ... using a D & D electric motor (almost new. 8.9HP) that I found on Kijiji for only $200 ...
> ...




Hi DavidP,

what´s the status of your Isetta conversion???

br
Martin


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

dmac, one can build an EV for $5k, but it isn't easy, used parts, and will lack a lot of features. I suggest building an EV Motorcyle to start off, they are a LOT simpler and cheaper, if you don't mind the inherent lack of safety with a motorcycle.

If you must have a car, a lot of old EVs come up for sale, many cheap that need work, most always need new batteries. Lead acid just doesn't last very long, particularly when you stretch them to their limits to cut costs. Heck, you can use starting batteries from the junkyard to just get something working.


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