# My reverse trike project starts.



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds like an interesting project.

What are you welding? Steel?
For a prototype that will be fine but if you want it light then eventually you may want to use a MIG or TIG welder, or maybe gas brazing, and a decent quality Reynolds tube or equivelent. Or you could look at aluminium and carbon fibre but I think steel will have better properties and a lower stress failure rate.

You could figure a monocoque frame that contains less metal and weight and 'sandwiches' the battery packs.

Any sketches of your ideas? What is your proposed kerb weight? Any specific drive line components planned?

My favorite is the AeroRider.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> ...Anyone in the Central Ohio area who wants to get involved feel free to drop me a line.


Wow, Central Ohio is represented fairly well on this board. There's at least four of us now with active projects.

Project sounds interesting. Ditto everything Woody said - more details please!


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## Guest (May 7, 2010)

Cant view at facebook without logging in. Ouch!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

gottdi said:


> Cant view at facebook without logging in. Ouch!


It's a new account for his business. Just a few posts so far, no pics yet there either.

Teaser!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I 'don't do' facebook so I didn't have a look. Seems I haven't missed much.

Photos on here would be so much better.

When I first started on the EV route I thought about working at this scale but the UK regulations have such a low limit to motor power and speed that it was going to be too limiting and not be helpful enough to take over from the standard cycling option.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Agreed on the welder. Once I get the prototype built I will look into making it lighter. I am using plain steel on this one. I plan to use moped wheels and maybe an etek rt motor powering the rear wheel. I know there are hub motors on the kelly web site but dont know about using one of those yet. Hope to get pics up this weekend.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

Take a look at this motor.....

http://plugbike.com/2009/07/31/enertrac-corporation-electric-hub-motor/


Roy


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Intersting motor. It seems a little pricey though. I think I want to stick with a separate motor so I can increase the performance if needed.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Just thought about this. You should check out The Columbus Idea Foundry. TIG, MIG, and stick, welders; plasma cutters, hand and bench grinders, drill presses, a metal lathe coming as soon as I go get it, big anvil, nice steel work tables, a big Bridgeport CNC that should be fully operational soon, a ShopBot router table, full wood shop, etc. They're a little limited on space, so you wouldn't be able to store your project there, but you can reserve space to work on it. I did a lot of the rough, dirty, noisy, work on my chassis there and brought it back home to my garage for the rest.

There's also welding classes. I may be teaching a monthly MIG class, and there is a TIG class in the works. I think stick classes are available. I'm also working on details to offer fabrication and/or project classes soon.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> ...I think I want to stick with a separate motor so I can increase the performance if needed.


Ditto on my e-bike project. I like the weight centered and as low as possible, and the opportunity to up the ante if desired.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I may look into the welding class. I am just getting my feet wet with this and any tudoring I can get will be helpful.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

I was thinking. What do you suppose the strength of the vehicle would be if you used something like this...

http://dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=56

I've checked it out before, and I know it would add to the cost, but the super light weight would be wonderful for a production vehicle.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Carbon fiber is awesome, but for something you're going to produce and sell you need to have some idea of how it's going to perform and endure in varying situations. Bumpy roads, cold, heat, abuse, etc. With steel or aluminum you can find a lot of pre-existing engineering data, compare to similar applications, etc, and over-engineer a bit for safety. It's harder to do this with composites because there can be such a wide variance in how it's produced and assembled.

So, yes it's possible to use that to build your chassis, but I would want an FEA of the pieces used and the assembly before selling one to someone - and/or - iron-clad incorporation process and excellent product liability insurance.

The point is you're better off sticking to proven methods. It reassures your potential customers that they're buying a quality product. Save the trick stuff for when you have a great reputation, and the resources to do it right. It also makes it easier should, someone try to sue you, to prove that your product wasn't the culprit.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Jason Lattimer said:


> I was thinking. What do you suppose the strength of the vehicle would be if you used something like this...
> 
> http://dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=56
> 
> I've checked it out before, and I know it would add to the cost, but the super light weight would be wonderful for a production vehicle.


My gut instinct would be that it would be fine for a static load but when you add dynamic loadings to it there could be problems with the junctions adn stress risers.

For dynamic loading you would really want the junctions between the elements to be smooth large radius flitches that are formed as part of the struts.

For the time being, stick with simple welded steel so that you have a structure that can be assessed and tested to figure out weaknesses before cost.

Do that right and you will have a structure that is heavier and stronger then you need, then you can start figuring a weight saving with FEA.
Unless, of course, you are designing the whole thing in a CAD package and can do the analysis as you go.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

You are probably right. The weight savings sound cool, but I agree on the liability thing. I was already looking into incorporating before selling anything anyways.
I will probably end up selling a roll cage built car with motorcycle wheels. I want the safety aspect up front. I am worried people will get a false sense of security when they have a car body around them. Particularly when they are running 80 mph down the interstate.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

This is the basis of the frame. It is currently 16 gauge 1x1 square steel tube. The swing arm will be mounted off the back. The total length of the vehicle will be 108" I intend to add pedals to generators so the occupants can get exercise while putting power back into the battery pack. I am hoping to use moped wheels and be able to maintain speed with freeway traffic.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you have a sketch of the frame design?

It is a bit difficult to see where you are going with it at this stage.
It will certainly need a lot of triangulation and bracing before there is any strength in it.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

It seems pretty strong even as it is. My total curb weight I am aiming for is 400 pounds unloaded. I have already figured up the battery pack and components at a weight of about 250 lbs. The problem is that the frame now is up over 20 lbs. I have sketches but unfortunately I do not have a scanner handy. It will probably resemble a solar race car when it is done.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

It is hard to picture where you're going. The chassis you have started looks almost square from this angle. How about a thousand word description, until you get some pics to post?  You've peaked my curiousity, maybe Woody's too. Enquiring minds want to know...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Don't worry too much about weight at this time.

If you were to put wheels on it and then sit in the middle it will sag. What you need is something that puts a third dimension to the frame so that it is not flat.
A tunnel or a cage or raised sides will all add to its rigidity. But adding diagonals to make triangles will add more then making rectangles.

Once you have the shape, even if it weighed 400lbs, you can work out where to hang suspension and drive components and where you will sit and pedal.
Then you can reduce the weight considerably by redesigning around the bits that can't change.

Have a look at the British Human Power club site and the Recumbent and HPV centre to see how they find ways to reduce weight.
I know you need more weight to have a motor and batteries but it is a good direction to start in.

Space frames and monocoques are going to give you the better strength weight ratios.

As you are planning on pedals I am assuming that your vehicle won't fall into automotive regulations.

ETA: This site may also give you some ideas as to how and why these things are as they are.
ETA: If you are going heavier have a look at the Zwheelz site.


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## grayballs (Aug 27, 2008)

Maybe a bit off topic, but I ran across these a while ago,,,, you might find them interesting reading,,, 'probably doesn't apply to a marketable vehicle, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Building-an-Ultra-LightWeight-Car-Part-1/A_110989/article.html

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Building-an-Ultra-LightWeight-Car-Part-2/A_110990/article.html


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

O.K. here goes with my thousand word essay.

After finding vehicles like this
 http://www.bugev.net 
and this
http://www.twike.us/
I thought it would be nice to have something similar. 

What I am building will be a reverse trike using moped wheels. The occupants will sit side by side. The pedals they will be pedaling will simply be connected to generators to help put energy back into the battery pack. Future models I hope to add solar panels to the top but at the moment it is too costly. The frame you see is only the very bottom. The front wheels will occupy two of the front compartments, so they will be inboard of the body. The back wheel will be mounted off of a motorcycle style swing arm connected to the other end of the frame. The frame is 6 feet long and 54" wide at the moment. The swing arm will probably add another 3 feet to the length. I plan to make the back of the body swing up from the bottom at the base of the frame to the back to the roof, where it will more or less put a roof over the entire swing arm and rear tire. Since I have no fiberglass ability, the initial design will be completed with sheet metal and have a side view resembling a parallelogram. The top view will be rectangular. 
I want to have an electric motorcycle setup driving the rear wheel and powered by 72 volts. I want it geared for a top speed of about 75 mph. I know the human element will be unable to provide very much useful energy output for now, but I am more or less doing the pedal thing for people like my wife. She wants to get exercise riding her bike as much as possible. If I can give her a way to exercise while driving to work and giving her a sense that she is contributing to to energy to do it in the process so much the better.
My final goal is a human/solar electric hybrid that has the ability to maintain 50mph comfortably without the use of any battery power. The Twike has pedals actually connected to the rear wheels and is augmented with an electric motor. It has the ability to run 50 mph or so on electric power, so it is registered as a three wheeled motorcycle. I just don't think it should cost 30 to 40 grand. I know it is not easy picturing what I have described, but the frame should be completely done(top,sides and all) within a month or two. I only hope the final frame will not exceed the weight moped tires can handle. The Bug E and the Twike both have curb weights of about 4 to 700 pounds. I hope to be not much more than that.
Hope all this info makes sense. I picture things in my head well, but don't do a good job describing them well.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

grayballs said:


> Maybe a bit off topic, but I ran across these a while ago,,,, you might find them interesting reading,,, 'probably doesn't apply to a marketable vehicle, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> 
> http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Building-an-Ultra-LightWeight-Car-Part-1/A_110989/article.html
> ...


I also found this just about a week ago. Thought it was interesting but not sure about the strength. Love the simplicity of the build though.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

OK, that makes things a little clearer.

I think what you will need to do soon would be to place the place the frame on some crates or stands to simulate running height. Make sure it is well supported.
Then place some seats or usable mock ups in position.
Work out where the pedals will need to go and the amount of clearance you will need to pedal effectively, it is more space then you think.
From there make some hoops to indicate the internal clearance in all the important places and then check again for clearance.
Then you can decide if there is enough space for batteries and if you can get the vehicle profile you want.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Great idea, thanks for the insight. That would suck to have a frame built and not have enough room to move.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> It seems pretty strong even as it is. My total curb weight I am aiming for is 400 pounds unloaded.


This is going to be very difficult to achieve. My trike is a monoposto with a 165lb. pack. Target weight is 400lbs, and it should do 75mph. I have been working on the design for about a year, off and on, and am now modeling it in 1:3 scale to actually see if it can be done. 425lbs would be OK, but it is really hard to get there with a true road vehicle, even for a one-seater.

At this gross weight, structural steel is pretty much out. Too heavy. Maybe a subframe of 4130 front and rear, but that's it. The rest will be S2 cold-molded fiberglass over foam, with some Kevlar reinforcement. Carbon Fiber would be stronger, but only if made in a vacuum bagged, autoclaved process that I can't manage. For the home builder, S2 glass will be lighter and nearly as strong. One could do aluminum honeycomb, but it isn't for me. I can weld and my brother-in-law is a Rutan LongEZ owner and aviation worker with fiberglass tools and experience, so that is my path of least resistance.

There are other problems. The moped and HPV type component parts just aren't strong enough for a 400lb vehicle that can do highway speeds. They aren't DOT-approved, either. Car and most motorcycle parts are just too heavy. ATV parts aren't legal for road use in my state. My vehicle, not just the chassis but most of its components, will therefore be largely hand made. I have spent months pulling mass out of my design and its components a few ounces at a time. 

You have the additional challenge of carrying a second person in your 400lb trike- so your payload is 75%-100% of your empty weight. You are going to need an extremely sturdy and well designed chassis to pull that off. Very, very few vehicles of any kind can do that. Even if you go up to, say, 800lbs, it is going to be really challenging to carry about half again that much weight in passengers. Pedal power on a trike weighing that much could do little more than get it rolling on level ground.

My gut feeling is what you are intending just isn't possible, but I'm weary from my own build battle and I don't want to discourage you. I will say that you will make some very interesting discoveries as you weigh parts and materials and get serious with the actual, total pile. My advice is for you to get familiar with the materials you want to use and can handle, and start adding up what everything is going to weigh. Steering wheel, pedals, wiring, lights, seats, glass, body filler and paint- you will be amazed.

It really shapes up like this: most road-going two seat kit trikes (Trimuter, Trimagnum, Vortex, Lomax, Grinall, etc.) weigh at least 1200lbs, and over 1500 if they are electric, and most everything that actually weighs under 500lbs is a human-powered class vehicle with maybe a little boost power, but not even close to highway capability. I'm not aware of any exceptions to this characterization, but life is long and things are being tried all the time. Go for it...

Just my $.02

TomA


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

TomA said:


> There are other problems. The moped and HPV type component parts just aren't strong enough for a 400lb vehicle that can do highway speeds. They aren't DOT-approved, either. Car and most motorcycle parts are just too heavy. ATV parts aren't legal for road use in my state.
> 
> TomA


Agreed. I am having problems finding dot approved parts. I am probably going to end up with motorcycle running gear on a 12 to 15 hundred pound vehicle. I also found 270 watt solar sells for 750 dollars. I may end up making it into a light weight car with 4 of those solar cells on it. The pedals are probably just going to recharge the accessory battery at that point.


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Just found this:


 http://www.family-motorsports.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SL-150T-27&Show=ExtInfo

Says its 628 lbs net weight, 700 lbs shipping weight and carries 500 lbs. I was originally going to use this as a base to start, but it costs 3000 dollars and has no body.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

Jason Lattimer said:


> Just found this:
> 
> 
> http://www.family-motorsports.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SL-150T-27&Show=ExtInfo
> ...



I don't believe those specs. The first time I saw this vehicle, about a year ago, it was being sold by NoyzNToys, a company and website that are now gone. Then, it had a spec of 583lbs dry, with a total GVWR (if I understand the site information, which is no longer up,) of 710lbs. That means each occupant would have to be under 65 lbs. 

Now, the exact same picture is posted with this spec of 628lbs "net" and 500lb payload. If you go to the Chinese manufacturer's website and look at the vehicle, these specs aren't there. 

Its a mystery. One thing for sure: With 9.5 hp and a total weight of, say, 800lbs (two riders on board,) getting this thing with no body at all to "45-50mph" is going to require some near-magical tuning on that 150cc scooter motor...

TomA


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Agreed, but it does make you think. If one had the experience to build a tube frame chassis it might be possible to keep the weight down. The Twike says it is around 700 lbs too, and runs 50 mph.


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## webfootguy (Sep 11, 2007)

I have a 1998 Twike Active (TW 434). It is 520 lbs without passengers (includes 106 lbs of batteries). It is computer limited to 53 mph but there is a firmware upgrade to go 65 mph. It can take about 400 to 500 lbs of passenger / cargo load safely. The main construction is of aircraft aluminum. I have some pictures taken at the factory in 1998 that show the interior construction structure: http://public.fotki.com/webfootguy/electric-vehicle/twikeswissfactory1998/


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

webfootguy said:


> I have a 1998 Twike Active (TW 434). It is 520 lbs without passengers (includes 106 lbs of batteries). It is computer limited to 53 mph but there is a firmware upgrade to go 65 mph. It can take about 400 to 500 lbs of passenger / cargo load safely. The main construction is of aircraft aluminum. I have some pictures taken at the factory in 1998 that show the interior construction structure: http://public.fotki.com/webfootguy/electric-vehicle/twikeswissfactory1998/



Thank you for the info. That is the most useful piece of information I have found on the entire internet as far. It sounds like what I want to accomplish is possible. I would love to have one of my own, but cannot afford the price tag.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

webfootguy said:


> I have a 1998 Twike Active (TW 434). It is 520 lbs without passengers (includes 106 lbs of batteries). It is computer limited to 53 mph but there is a firmware upgrade to go 65 mph. It can take about 400 to 500 lbs of passenger / cargo load safely. The main construction is of aircraft aluminum. I have some pictures taken at the factory in 1998 that show the interior construction structure: http://public.fotki.com/webfootguy/electric-vehicle/twikeswissfactory1998/


_Very _interesting. The available movies on YouTube show a well-sorted little runabout. Pricey, but quite nice for what it is. 

Kent, do you have data on running this vehicle? I like the specs, but I suspect they are not all available at the same time: "Yes, you can go 53mph (or even 65) but only with one 125lb person aboard. Also, your range at high speed drops very precipitously." Simple physics here, and the smaller the vehicle, the greater the impact. It would seem this is basically an excellent neighborhood vehicle.

I'm not being critical, I'm pretty impressed actually. The Twike does demonstrate the outer limits, benefits and drawbacks of lightweight design. I'm also not sure those tires are sensible for a 1000lb full load, and it would certainly be roughed up in my suburban New York environment, but its a wonder, no doubt. 

So what does it really do for range, speed and energy usage? Seems these things do 50 miles per charge average. I'm presuming because yours is a 1998 that it has the NiCd batteries and not the Lithium. There's precious little information about this vehicle, and the US company's website has apparently not been updated in over a year. 

For myself, I'm going with a 25% lighter single-seater designed to be used at the other end of the spectrum: better acceleration and faster speeds- 45mph-75mph- and to have better handling and roadworthiness than a Twike. In my traffic environment, (hilly, fast country roads mixed with highways, trucks and bad weather,) a Twike would be very hard for me to operate safely and satisfactorily. Or so I think...


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Here is a quick preview of my sketch. I hope someone with more artistic ability can make a 3d view for me.


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