# Controller Repair



## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

What controller model and what location are you in? Can you post pics of the controller? Does it act normal and just looks damage or does it act damaged as well.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Just for an example: If you join the Endless-Sphere, and ask the same question, AND post a couple photos, there are many people that can pretty much diagnose your situation, and, probably have a couple to offer to fix it, OR, walk you through the repairs.

There are several guys there, that BUILD- repair, modify, and diagnose problems on controllers, that ARE highly credible with the ES Community. 

This is what I would do. No cost, no obligation, to get GREAT input. This Forum here is GREAT as well, but, more into total builds than in depth electronic repairs.


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## bumblebee (Jan 29, 2011)

its an ep1000 and it works but there is very little left of the buss bar

i would rather not open it up myself. i have a reputation for making things more broken than fixing them


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Send it back to EPC and they will replace it at no charge. They have a no-fault warranty so it doesn't really matter if it's your fault or not. You could set the thing on fire and it wouldn't make a difference... they have to replace it.

- Paul


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## carambo46 (Oct 12, 2010)

PZigouras said:


> Send it back to EPC and they will replace it at no charge. They have a no-fault warranty so it doesn't really matter if it's your fault or not. You could set the thing on fire and it wouldn't make a difference... they have to replace it.
> 
> - Paul


Bumblebee 

Paul works for the manufacture of the ep1000! So u may want to go that way.
Good luck
ps how old is it? 1 year? or less

let us know how it goes I am in need of a controller my self, and as good as your self in making things smoke and go boom!


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## bumblebee (Jan 29, 2011)

i just got my controller back from epc

they rebuilt it at no charge and sent it back to me. and they told me not blow it up again. i had to pay shipping back but since it was my fault to begin with i didnt complain. 

anyways, i just installed it and it ran great so im happy now


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## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

BB,

Could you post specs on your car? There could be some here that are thinking of getting that controller and may want a datapoint.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Bumblebee,

that was surely a lightning-quick repair, from asking february 15th how to cope with a molten bussbar, till feb. 27th a completely repaired car, including 2-way shipping and removing and installing in the car. Sounds almost too good to be true.

Did EPC repair/rebuild or replace the controller?

Regards,


Huub


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> that was surely a lightning-quick repair...Sounds almost too good to be true....


Yeah, I thought so, too, so I did a quick search on Mr. Bumblebee's history and these two tidbits sort of stood out:

On February 4th Bumblebee recommends to someone they buy an EPC controller:



bumblebee said:


> If you're looking for high power at a low cost, you may as well just pick up an EPC industrial controller.. they run on 12 volts, and handle a billion amps...


But 5 days later on February 9th Bumblebee asks:



bumblebee said:


> I'm sick and tired of the limits kicking in on these controllers when I'm in the middle of a race. What's cheapest and most powerful controller for racing????


Yeah, so, I guess the EPC controller that handles about a billion amps just wasn't good enough?

Puhhhlleeeze. These two characters, PZigouras and Bumblebee, seem to be working together, but I'm hardly an unbiased observer.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The guy Bumblebee was recommending the EPC controller to was using a 1hp motor in a VW Bug, and considering mechanical PWM to run it. For that application, nothing wrong with Bumblebee thinking EPC would be a good fit for his budget. 

PZigouras had previously stated he works for EPC. I think it's great they have a no-fault warranty, customer support doesn't get much better than that. A 10 day turn around, maybe Paul gave Bumblebee extra special treatment, maybe they do this for all customers. 




Tesseract said:


> Yeah, I thought so, too, so I did a quick search on Mr. Bumblebee's history and these two tidbits sort of stood out:
> 
> On February 4th Bumblebee recommends to someone they buy an EPC controller:
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Puhhhlleeeze. These two characters, PZigouras and Bumblebee, seem to be working together, but I'm hardly an unbiased observer.


I think I am an unbiased observer  And I notice the two of these guys have a common complaint yet show no evidence of owning an EV having this problem 



PZigouras said:


> I was racing against Cadillac STS on interstate 495 when my old controller's current limiter kicked in and he sailed passed me.... I didn't spend $2900 on a [name removed to protect controller company] controller to get my butt kicked by a 10-year-old Cadillac....





bumblebee said:


> I'm sick and tired of the limits kicking in on these controllers when I'm in the middle of a race.


Not that there is anything wrong with that  Tag teams


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

You guys are far too industrious...

I'm not going to bother looking up these past posts to paste them, but I rolled on the floor
when I saw PZ brag about taking ownership of other cars that he has won in races with a 120 volt lead based EV.

Well, I have a very small and light 120 volt AGM lead EV and every other vehicle I own will beat it in a race, including a mini-van!


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> Yeah, I thought so, too, so I did a quick search on Mr. Bumblebee's history and these two tidbits sort of stood out:
> 
> On February 4th Bumblebee recommends to someone they buy an EPC controller:
> 
> ...


GOOD NEWS!!! We work together with ALL our customers, not just B-man, to make SURE they win races! Yay! 

Oh, and we save them money too... but who cares about that, right?


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Weisheimer said:


> You guys are far too industrious...
> 
> I'm not going to bother looking up these past posts to paste them, but I rolled on the floor
> when I saw PZ brag about taking ownership of other cars that he has won in races with a 120 volt lead based EV.
> ...


I think the AGMs are your problem.... although low resistance, they will never put out the current that a set of regular flooded cells will... the AGMs I had acted more like deep cycle batteries. They lasted a while, but could never out power the flooded thin-plate batteries. Plus they are wicked expensive... almost 3 times the price I paid for my flooded cells.

- Paul


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I think the AGMs are your problem.... although low resistance, they will never put out the current that a set of regular flooded cells will...... They lasted a while, but could never out power the flooded thin-plate batteries....


This is contrary to the experience of many, if not all, of the fastest electric drag racers in the world.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hey Paul,

would be great to see some details of your car, as this would be a practical example of this battery-controller-motor combination.

Any reference to a site and/or blog would be mightily appreciated.

Regards,


Huub


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> This is contrary to the experience of many, if not all, of the fastest electric drag racers in the world.


Not really... AGMs may have higher current for the first few seconds, but the flooded thin-plate batteries seem to put out high amps until they are almost completely depleted. 

AGMs output drops to almost the same as a deep-cycle battery after a few minutes. Drag racers never notice this because the race is usually over before the amp curve even starts to drop...


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

Huub3 said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> would be great to see some details of your car, as this would be a practical example of this battery-controller-motor combination.
> 
> ...



The race car is kind of a secret, so I'm not showing that until I get a challenge.... but my daily driver (one of them) is a 2000 Daewoo with 20 flooded batteries and an 8-inch double shaft ADC motor. The EP-1000 works great all the time, and stays very cool -- a lot cooler than the motor.

I also just installed one in someone else's car and I will post photos of that soon. He just had a Logisystems blow up on him after a few trips, so hopefully this will take care of all his problems.... he has a Kostov 11-inch.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> Not really... AGMs may have higher current for the first few seconds, but the flooded thin-plate batteries seem to put out high amps until they are almost completely depleted.
> 
> AGMs output drops to almost the same as a deep-cycle battery after a few minutes. Drag racers never notice this because the race is usually over before the amp curve even starts to drop...


I don't think you know what you're talking about. To prove otherwise, please give specific product examples, reference literature citations or provide test data.


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## carambo46 (Oct 12, 2010)

Ok I am very new here but it sounds like to me Paul may have a good idea.
starting battery's are no good for distance, but since a starting battery gives all it has in it,s first few seconds with its thin plates, is the perfect 4 second race battery?


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

AGM batteries perform much better than floodies wrt high current applications. They have a lower resistance, therefore lower peukerts and therefore can dump much higher currents. They are also much better in the cold. Their energy density is a bit worse than floodies... but u can get more out of them typically due to lower peukerts. For these same reasons, you can also charge them at much higher rates.
Of course there are different types/designs with thinner plates and those with heavier plates. Tin/calcium designs allow higher discharges also as I recall...but perhaps shorter lifespan.
All the racers use AGM's, and have done so since they came on the market. Many of the larger AGM's are capable of 2 to 3 thousand amps. Floodies can't touch this high current discharge.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> AGM batteries perform much better than floodies wrt high current applications. They have a lower resistance, therefore lower peukerts and therefore can dump much higher currents. They are also much better in the cold. Their energy density is a bit worse than floodies... but u can get more out of them typically due to lower peukerts. For these same reasons, you can also charge them at much higher rates.
> Of course there are different types/designs with thinner plates and those with heavier plates. Tin/calcium designs allow higher discharges also as I recall...but perhaps shorter lifespan.
> All the racers use AGM's, and have done so since they came on the market. Many of the larger AGM's are capable of 2 to 3 thousand amps. Floodies can't touch this high current discharge.


That pretty much agrees with my experience. But then again, I've only used about 1000 AGMs and a couple hundred floodies. Besides, if you ever want to run in a "real" EV race, there is like about 99% chance they would not allow you on the track with floodies


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

bumblebee said:


> i just got my controller back from epc
> 
> they rebuilt it at no charge and sent it back to me. and they told me not blow it up again. i had to pay shipping back but since it was my fault to begin with i didnt complain.
> 
> anyways, i just installed it and it ran great so im happy now


Hi Bumblebee,

would be great to learn more about your car, so I get some mental picture about it. Pictures are much appreciated.

Regards,


Huub


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> The EP-1000 [...] stays very cool -- a lot cooler than the motor.


Um. That's a no-brainer. A controller should be efficient in the high 90's, a motor is usually more like around 80, possibly closing in to 90% at peak efficiency. If you'd managed to do a controller that got hotter than the motor it'd be nothing else but embarrassing.


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

major said:


> I don't think you know what you're talking about. To prove otherwise, please give specific product examples, reference literature citations or provide test data.


I'll look for the article, I believe it was in EC&M magazine, where they tested several glass mat and gel batteries against flooded cells. Since gel does not flow like liquid electrolyte, the gel farthest from the plate is not exposed directly to the plate, and takes LONGER to make the chemical reaction happen. Also, the sulfation (discharge) process builds up a barrier that gel has a hard time getting through -- unlike liquid.

If I remember correctly, the discharge rate after about 5 minutes drops to less than a flooded thin-plate battery, but more than a flooded deep cycle. Gels always have a higher initial current, but it doesn't last for the entire discharge cycle, like people think it does... it only lasts for the first 20% or so, if you are really sucking them down.

Of course, the drawback to thin-plate batteries is that they have short lives, unless you keep them well over 50% full -- especially in moving vehicles (the article was about power station batteries). But they are also about 1/3rd the price of gels for the same wH.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

PZigouras said:


> I'll look for the article, I believe it was in EC&M magazine, where they tested several glass mat and gel batteries against flooded cells. Since gel does not flow like liquid electrolyte, the gel farthest from the plate is not exposed directly to the plate, and takes LONGER to make the chemical reaction happen. Also, the sulfation (discharge) process builds up a barrier that gel has a hard time getting through -- unlike liquid.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the discharge rate after about 5 minutes drops to less than a flooded thin-plate battery, but more than a flooded deep cycle. Gels always have a higher initial current, but it doesn't last for the entire discharge cycle, like people think it does... it only lasts for the first 20% or so, if you are really sucking them down.
> 
> Of course, the drawback to thin-plate batteries is that they have short lives, unless you keep them well over 50% full -- especially in moving vehicles (the article was about power station batteries). But they are also about 1/3rd the price of gels for the same wH.


GEL cells have many characteristics that are completely different than AGM's. It is correct that these dont have the high current capability. Making the distinction between GEL's and AGM's is an important point.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Qer said:


> Um. That's a no-brainer. A controller should be efficient in the high 90's, a motor is usually more like around 80, possibly closing in to 90% at peak efficiency. If you'd managed to do a controller that got hotter than the motor it'd be nothing else but embarrassing.


Most controllers are much smaller than a motor so they have less heat capacity. Applying 1000 watts of heat to a 100lb motor won't heat it up much, 1000 watts to a 10lb controller requires proper thermal management. There are certainly controllers out there with thermal issues, he's just saying his controller is not one of them. Cut the guy some slack, he's in sales, not engineering.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> Cut the guy some slack, he's in sales, not engineering.


That's part of the problem, isn't it?

This forum is filled enough with disinformation as it is, there's no need excusing more erroneous "facts" only because his profession makes him unsuitable answering technical questions.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

PZ simply stated his EP-1000 controller stays cooler than his motor, this is the statement you are criticizing him for??? 

What makes you a professional expert? You stated, if the controller has a higher efficiency than the motor, the controller should stay cooler than the motor. I would say your statement can be filed under your "erroneous facts" folder. There are certainly more factors at play; surface area, thermal mass, convection flow rate, ambient temp, emissivity, thermal resistance... 

People shouldn't have to feel bad about not being an "expert" here, even experts make mistakes occasionally (myself included ). It's a DIY forum, not an PHD Engineering Expert forum. 









Qer said:


> That's part of the problem, isn't it?
> 
> This forum is filled enough with disinformation as it is, there's no need excusing more erroneous "facts" only because his profession makes him unsuitable answering technical questions.





Qer said:


> Um. That's a no-brainer. A controller should be efficient in the high 90's, a motor is usually more like around 80, possibly closing in to 90% at peak efficiency. If you'd managed to do a controller that got hotter than the motor it'd be nothing else but embarrassing.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> People shouldn't have to feel bad about not being an "expert" here, even experts make mistakes occasionally (myself included ). It's a DIY forum, not an PHD Engineering Expert forum.


You're absolutely right. But then when people make statements like this 


PZigouras said:


> I think the AGMs are your problem.... although low resistance, they will never put out the current that a set of regular flooded cells will...


 They deserved to get called out  Novice DIYers or newbies may not distinguish fact from fiction here. 

And I for one think this PZ guy is spreading a lot of crap which could damage projects or even be dangerous. His motives seem dubious and tactics questionable.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> What makes you a professional expert?


I make Qer an expert, etischer.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> I make Qer an expert, etischer.


Does this mean he never makes a mistake? I think you missed my point.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> I think you missed my point.


Then enlighten me... don't be obtuse because you think it makes you look cool.

(edit below)
Oh, I see you are back to editing your original post to respond to another one. Bad habit, that. So I'll be hypocritical and do the same.

Of course Qer makes mistakes. I do too. That's not relevant here, though, because he didn't make a mistake. You just asked that question, "What makes you a professional?" to be contrary. It's totally irrelevant if a person is a professional or not if they are *right*. Do try to keep that salient fact in mind in the future.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Can we not let this become a personal issue of attack please and leave it be.

If you do not agree then just say you do not agree, we can do without people falling out over the pettiness of personal attacks.

Thank you.

Admin


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm not trying to pick a fight with the Soliton possy, Qer, or any one else here. I'm trying to do the opposite, ease the tension a bit and make this a more welcome place to share ideas. 

Qer is making an example of PZ's post about his controller staying cool. PZ simply said "it stays cooler than the motor"

Qer insults PZ for spreading "erroneous facts" and states his profession precludes him from answering technical questions. Qer then spreads his own "erroneous facts". 

Now, does this make Qer who is a professional in the field, "unsuitable for answering technical questions" because he too once made a mistake? This is what I meant when I said, what makes you a professional? 

Everyone makes mistakes, no need for personal insults. 






Qer said:


> This forum is filled enough with disinformation as it is, there's no need excusing more erroneous "facts" only because his profession makes him unsuitable answering technical questions.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> ....and states his profession precludes him from answering technical questions. ....


Hey etischer,

Maybe we should lighten up  I don't know you. You did some wonderful technical work and shared it with the forum. Thank you. I admire you for it. And for all I know, you're a salesman by day. Hell, us engineers take enough crap for being who we are. It comes with the territory.

Back to the point, even if Qer's reasoning was invalid, his conclusion for the most part was correct. Except in rare applications, one would expect the motor to run considerably hotter than the controller simply by virtue that the motor is typically rated for 180°C and semiconductor junctions about 100°C. IIRC.

And PZ does leave himself open to such criticism with statements like this. 


PZigouras said:


> The electronics are standard driver electronics. I'm not 100% how they work, because I don't really do electronics.. but I know we don't have any "timers" in there... just a bunch of circuit boards with little things on them.


 That would give me confidence in buying the product from this salesman......not 

There are a number of members here who have spent a lot of hours for years trying to help DIYers build EVs. When some of us smell a rat, I don't think we are out of line to warn those we try to help. Are we? If this PZ guy is for real, let him show it and I'll apologize 

Regards,

major


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Dear all,

one very personal observation.

I see some of my personal forum heroes (Eric, Major, Qer, Jeffrey) in a discussion that might well end without a "winner". This makes me feel sad.

On the other hand, I see the subjects of this all, mr. PZ and mr. Bumblebee, not reacting on some of the questions that have been posed. Given the concerns we seem to have around those two identities, that makes us all a "looser".

Paul, Bumblebee, a direct personal plea from me: if you have a heart for the DIY EV world, please step out of the mist, and be much more open on what you have done and achieved. For this pictures, video's and other undisputable proof is needed.

We have had too much unclarity over the intentions of vendors in the recent past, which make this place (maybe overly) sensitive. If i get clarity on all of the concerns that I have, and that have been mentioned in several posts of me and others, I am willing to edit my past mails to reflect that (sorry Qer ).

If I do not get that clarity, unfortunately I have to assume that the EPC 1000 is not existing, that the people that are connected to that product are to be avoided and that other people have to be warned about this product and its affiliates.

Regards,


Huub


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> Qer insults PZ for spreading "erroneous facts" and states his profession precludes him from answering technical questions.


Ah. So pointing out that someone is wrong is now an insult? You do realise that that opens for a reality where noone can be wrong because it's politically incorrect to point that out which means that facts will erode simply by being diluted by errors to a level where it's impossible to be sure about anything any longer?



etischer said:


> Qer then spreads his own "erroneous facts".


Not erroneous, possibly incomplete though.

As Major points out silicon (or caps, or various other components in a controller) can't handle the same temperature levels as electromechanics, thus a motor can easily run a lot hotter than the controller. A WarP 9" has a snap switch that opens at 120C IIRC, by that time the Soliton 1 has turned off current entirely 25 degrees ago to protect itself (and it's unlikely you get even close to 95C due to the linear temp limit) which kinda shows the difference in temperature acceptance.

A properly cooled controller should run a lot cooler than a properly cooled motor and since a properly built controller should limit the current to protect itself it should NEVER get even close to as hot as a loaded motor. If it does something's wrong.

So yes, I did a booboo there. I skipped several steps of reasoning to validate my point, my apologizes for that.



etischer said:


> Now, does this make Qer who is a professional in the field, "unsuitable for answering technical questions" because he too once made a mistake?


By now you should've been aware of that this isn't the first time P Z has spread dubious facts so it's hardly a case of a single mistake in his case. I agree that people will do mistakes (and I've done it several times) but this constant sales pitch bullshitting isn't a case of "made a mistake".

This isn't the first time we see fortune seekers promising gold and green forests (a swedish proverb) and unfortunately this isn't the first time we see people protect them as well because they want the fairy tales to be true. However, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. Do yourself a favour, google on epc ep1000 and look at the hits. You don't think that looks suspicious?

However, I'll let you listen to his fairy tales now without interrupting again, I'll simply ignore this thread and P Z. Let's see if EPC makes a Logisystems or a James Morrison on the DIY-crowd. Popcorn's on me!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> *I'm not trying to pick a fight with the Soliton possy*, Qer, or any one else here. I'm trying to do the opposite, ease the tension a bit and make this a more welcome place to share ideas.
> ...
> Everyone makes mistakes, *no need for personal insults*.


Ahem. Yeah, just a bit o' irony here, eh?.

***

Also ironic is that we of the "Soliton posse" are uniquely qualified to identify the weaknesses and/or hyperbole of another would-be controller but because we are competitors any comments we make are automatically dismissed because we are, of course, not the least bit unbiased.

But accusing us of being biased is like pointing out that the sky is blue. Of course we are biased. We don't pretend to be unbiased. We constantly remind people we are biased, but that doesn't mean our questions, our often very hard and very pointed questions, are any less useful.

My problem here is that there are many logical inconsistencies between the stories of Bumblebee and PZigouras on this forum alone:

Bumblebee said he was tired of losing races because his controller's "limits kicked in". PZigouras says he was upset because he was beat by a 10 y/o Cadillac because some "unnamed" controller's "limits kicked in". Setting aside the similarity of those two comments, PZigouras has also claimed that he has since won many races, and kept the loser's car each time, after he installed the bad-ass EPC controller in his "top-secret" EV. Well, ok, but why didn't that Cadillac owner get to keep his car after losing the race because the "unnamed controller" limited amps on him? Hmmm?

And how come neither Bumblebee or PZiogouras has posted a single picture showing this controller installed in an actual vehicle? How about a picture of the damage this controller supposedly sustained to one of its busbars? Even better, how about a video showing an EV with this controller driving around, even if just navigating a parking lot at slow speed? After all, anyone can take a NEMA enclosure, slap a heatsink on the side and stick it in the engine bay of a car and say that's an EV. 

Then there is PZigouras claiming his 1000A and 2000A controllers "have no limits" - well, how come they come in two different amperage ratings, then? No limits is no limits, right?

Other unanswered questions: if the EPC controller doesn't regulate current (torque) then what does the throttle pot control? Does it just make duty cycle proportional to throttle position? 

If you do a search on Paul Zigouras you'll find that he was (is?) heavily involved in one of those "Water4Gas" scams. More specifically, he has claimed on such sites like "overunity.com" that he designed (despite not knowing anything about electronics) a "hydrolyzer" that is like 20x more efficient than a regular electrolysis cell. He also claims that some "major" energy company offered him millions of dollars to take it from him so us poor saps couldn't reap the benefits of this miracle power-producing technology. Ummm... setting aside the sheer ridiculousness of this claim for a moment, if it were true then PZigouras is actually a sell-out.

If a competitor is legitimate like, e.g., NetGain Controls and Synkromotive, then we may occasionally trade barbs over some perceived advantage/disadvantage, but we don't get all personal and nasty with them. Indeed, we aren't even getting personal and nasty with these two characters now, just asking the sort of questions that those of you who are tempted by the seemingly cheap price of this product should be asking.

And since you clearly aren't in the market for a dc motor controller, etischer, your defense of this dude is doubly suspicious. That is to say, you have absolutely no interest in the outcome so why argue with me or Qer about this?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Qer said:


> A properly cooled controller should run a lot cooler than a properly cooled motor and since a properly built controller should limit the current to protect itself it should NEVER get even close to as hot as a loaded motor.


It doesn't sound like PZ's controller has current limiting or internal temperature measurement. Looks like he is instead taking the brute force approach and going overkill with IGBTs and heat sink to ensure his controller stays cool. PZ says his approach allows his controller to continue running when other controllers would have gone into thermal cutback.



Qer said:


> A WarP 9" has a snap switch that opens at 120C IIRC, by that time the Soliton 1 has turned off current entirely 25 degrees ago to protect itself


According to PZ, his brute force approach allows him to work the motor closer to it's thermal limit, and "win races". Just because he hasn't taken the Soliton approach doesn't mean his approach is wrong. 

A controller with a dime sized heat sink would surely over heat, it doesn't matter what the efficiency is of the motor or controller. 

Maybe your right, maybe this whole thread is a scam to promote EPC controllers? I'm getting dragged into a debate I have no interest in winning. My point is not about who's right or who's wrong, or who is smarter than who, it is about being able to share ideas without having to worry about hostility and a verbal smack down.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> .... it is about being able to share ideas without having to worry about hostility and a verbal smack down.


Yes Eric, you're absolutely right. But on the other hand, have we've seen or heard from mr. bumblebee or mr. PZ lately? And have you bothered punching in mr. PZ's name into google. Give me a break


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

major said:


> Yes Eric, you're absolutely right. But on the other hand, have we've seen or heard from mr. bumblebee or mr. PZ lately? And have you bothered punching in mr. PZ's name into google. Give me a break


Yes, I agree, things seem a bit fishy with Paul. I'm hoping Paul is just an overzealous sales guy. 

I like the idea of a low cost brute force pwm controller, add a PLC or labview to close the control loop... It is something different, perhaps it's still in prototype phase, perhaps it doesn't exist. Either way, it's a new and interesting approach, I'd like to see it developed further rather than pounded into oblivion before it gets a chance.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

etischer said:


> Yes, I agree, things seem a bit fishy with Paul. I'm hoping Paul is just an overzealous sales guy.
> 
> I like the idea of a low cost brute force pwm controller, add a PLC or labview to close the control loop... It is something different, perhaps it's still in prototype phase, perhaps it doesn't exist. Either way, it's a new and interesting approach, I'd like to see it developed further rather than pounded into oblivion before it gets a chance.


Not a new approach, I suggested the "Big Dummy" line of controllers to Tessarect quite a while ago. He was amused but gave me a pretty good explanation why it wasn't a good idea (which I promptly dismissed and hoped someone would build one )


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> I'd like to see it developed further rather than pounded into oblivion before it gets a chance.


Are you going to put your money where your mouth is and test it yourself?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> Yes, I agree, things seem a bit fishy with Paul. I'm hoping Paul is just an overzealous sales guy.


Keep on hoping, then. Here are just a few hits from the first page of results searching on "Paul Zigouras" with Google:

Claims Paul was paid $6M to "shut up" about his electrolysis device:
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/paulzigouras.htm

You know it's bad when overunity.com members think you're a scammer:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4926.0

Paul entered the X-Prize competition? Nope, just a bunch of hype:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/02/06/brocktonenergy-drops-out-of-auto-x-prize-puts-car-on-ebay/

More wacky claims that his electrolysis units can power racing engines:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg18987.html

On the EPC Corporation "Products" page a Hitachi VFD is portrayed as an "electrolysis controller". Huh?
http://zigourasengineering.com/products.html

(BTW - you can't use the word "engineering" in your business name unless one of the principals is a licensed PE).


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

There have been several auctions for EPC controllers on ebay, but oddly enough they all seem to have been removed. 

I love the concept of re-purposing an industrial DC motor controller. It would be a way to take advantage of mass production pricing and you should be able to find them about as big as you want. Whether or not these are the best execution of that concept (or even real) is another question entirely.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Qer said:


> Are you going to put your money where your mouth is and test it yourself?


If I had an interest in DC controllers, I would just build one myself.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I get your point. Sorry for wasting everyones time. 



Tesseract said:


> Keep on hoping, then. Here are just a few hits from the first page of results searching on "Paul Zigouras" with Google:
> 
> Claims Paul was paid $6M to "shut up" about his electrolysis device:
> http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/paulzigouras.htm


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

etischer said:


> I get your point. Sorry for wasting everyones time.


Eric,

no need to apologize from my point of view. I am always very happy to read your contributions (more or less copying your industrial ACIM approach), and your intentions in this thread were honest and good-willing.

All,

now that we have more or less solidly established that PZ and Bumblebee are (part of) a scam (if not even the same person), can we do anything around the mails and threads that have been infected by these identities, to avoid that others tap into these traps?

Regards,


Huub


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## PZigouras (Jun 5, 2010)

etischer said:


> It doesn't sound like PZ's controller has current limiting or internal temperature measurement. Looks like he is instead taking the brute force approach and going overkill with IGBTs and heat sink to ensure his controller stays cool. PZ says his approach allows his controller to continue running when other controllers would have gone into thermal cutback.


I'm not going to say we don't believe in thermal or amp cutbacks, because we do sell an optional in-line current limiter that can be adjusted in real time. But personally, I don't like them for racing. And again, these controllers are not my idea or design -- they are the company's design. If I had it my way, I would probably make the controller look like a million bucks... but still have it be about the same price as a Curtis. But some how, I don't think it's going to happen.

All I can say is that I've never once had a problem with any of mine... and two of them, I bought used. I've had nothing but problems from Logisystems and Curtis. I've never had a problem with the Soliton 1, except for the thermal cut-off (and the price). And I'm not spending $3000 or $4000 on a controller ever again.... I could buy enough gasoline to last me two years with that much money.

But again, that's just me. The good news is that no one can force you to buy at EP-1000. Or an EP-2000. I hope that makes everyone feel better (and safer) when they go to bed and sleep at night. Oh, here is a picture for your dreams....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I am going to lock this thread as it no longer serves any purpose.

Should the OP have any need for further advice then it should be for a new thread dedicated to the purpose.


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