# [EVDL] Motor Idea



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
CV joint axles to? Taperlock adapters on both ends so they wouldn't
slip with adapters to off the shelf Honda CV axles? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Motor Idea

What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow shaft large enough to
pass a decent size axle shaft through. A little spline on the inside,
fact gear, or taper cups and you could take two motors and a shaft with
a yoke on one end and a threaded nut on the other and assemble it and
quiet easily un asemble it.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
>CV joint axles to? 

It wouldn't go around corners very well without a differential.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

True. Maybe the solution is just a one legger that we have seen on the
list already. As long as the traction available is good enough. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

>How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could 
>bolt CV joint axles to?

It wouldn't go around corners very well without a differential.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > What if the typical 9" was available with a hollow
> > shaft large enough to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Jim,

Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used
by the magnetics. Talking about the inner core of the
armature. In fact, sometimes the shaft steel itself
is in the magnetic circuit. Mostly in 2 pole motors,
not so much in the 4 pole variety. The steel in the
armature core between the shaft and the slots was
called "depth below slots" back in my days of
magnetism. It is kind of the flip side of the steel
in the frame between the poles. You need it.

There are motors with big old holes all the way thru
the center. Most of these will have pretty high pole
counts. 8, 12 or 16 poles. With more pole pairs, you
need less back iron and depth below slots. But you
have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.

Regards,

Jeff M





> --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
shafts? The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
maybe trying to cut down on the width? I think some type of clutch
arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
though so that the axle would turn corners easily. Maybe just use a
differential pumpkin? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


Hi Jim,

Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the magnetics.
Talking about the inner core of the armature. In fact, sometimes the
shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit. Mostly in 2 pole motors,
not so much in the 4 pole variety. The steel in the armature core
between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
my days of magnetism. It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
frame between the poles. You need it.

There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center. Most
of these will have pretty high pole counts. 8, 12 or 16 poles. With
more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots. But you
have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.

Regards,

Jeff M





> --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This but it sounds like you are reinventing Netgains
Slip yolk and tail shaft assemblies. They end in a
universal joint that you attach to your drive axle to.
The tail shaft attaches to the motor spline. They have
it as part of their hybrid emis system to turn any
vehicle to a hybrid. 

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock
> > adapters for the axle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I'd like to hear from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might
> > effect the armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size
> > while adding nothing to the diameter or length.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Cool! I have heard of their EMIS systems but havent seen the motor part
of it. Do they machine the ends for the yokes or is it an adapter that
fits over their current shafts? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 13:18
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

This but it sounds like you are reinventing Netgains Slip yolk and tail
shaft assemblies. They end in a universal joint that you attach to your
drive axle to.
The tail shaft attaches to the motor spline. They have it as part of
their hybrid emis system to turn any
vehicle to a hybrid. 

--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> > shafts? The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here is a thought - to put the axle shafts through a hole would be
needed but in theory would NOT be an empty space. The axles would be in
there which are steel so wouldn't the suspected loss of metal be put
right back in there? 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 13:20
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea



> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I'd like to hear from Lee or Jeff as to if or by how much this might
> > effect the armature if one were to increase the lamination hole size
> > while adding nothing to the diameter or length.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need for 
gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in it's 
more efficient operating RPM. Also, width is a big issue with independant 
suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints (reliability and 
efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the 
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels? You could even switch the 
hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but I 
suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts? The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width? I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily. Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature. In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit. Mostly in 2 pole motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety. The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism. It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles. You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center. Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts. 8, 12 or 16 poles. With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots. But you
> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>


> > --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It has been brought up before but most would answer back that you lose
a lot of efficiency by driving through hydraulic pumps and motors. It
would really help though in situations where you wanted to make things
that were hybrid and could be driven by either an engine or a electric
motor. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 14:37
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need
for gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in
it's more efficient operating RPM. Also, width is a big issue with
independant suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints
(reliability and efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels? You could even switch
the hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but
I suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts? The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width? I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily. Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the
magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature. In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit. Mostly in 2 pole
motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety. The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism. It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles. You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center. Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts. 8, 12 or 16 poles. With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots. But
you
> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>


> > --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jody,

Somewhat, but there would be additional air gaps and
the substitute steel would not be of desired magnetic
quality. I'm not saying it couldn't be done. I think
Ford did this on the EV Ranger. But it is a design
constraint on the motor which needs to be considered. 
Just drill out any old armature, and you're likely to
have problems.

Jeff


--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Here is a thought - to put the axle shafts through a
> > hole would be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe that this is how the Abrams M1 tank propels itself.


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:48 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

It has been brought up before but most would answer back that you lose
a lot of efficiency by driving through hydraulic pumps and motors. It
would really help though in situations where you wanted to make things
that were hybrid and could be driven by either an engine or a electric
motor. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 14:37
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

If I'm following this correctly, remember that most people find the need
for gear reduction between the motor and the axles to keep the motor in
it's more efficient operating RPM. Also, width is a big issue with
independant suspension, short axles means more angle in the U-joints
(reliability and efficiency issues) or restricted suspension travel.

On another tangent, has anybody tried driving a hydraulic pump with the
motor and putting hydraulic motors at the wheels? You could even switch
the hydraulic motors from series to parallel to get two gear ratios, but
I suppose in series they would want to turn the same speed.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


> Wouldn't it just be easier to make taperlock adapters for the axle
> shafts? The only reason not to go this way I would believe would be
> maybe trying to cut down on the width? I think some type of clutch
> arrangement similar to a detroit locker would be needed on one side
> though so that the axle would turn corners easily. Maybe just use a
> differential pumpkin?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:32
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Yea, some of that steel in there by the shaft is used by the
magnetics.
> Talking about the inner core of the armature. In fact, sometimes the
> shaft steel itself is in the magnetic circuit. Mostly in 2 pole
motors,
> not so much in the 4 pole variety. The steel in the armature core
> between the shaft and the slots was called "depth below slots" back in
> my days of magnetism. It is kind of the flip side of the steel in the
> frame between the poles. You need it.
>
> There are motors with big old holes all the way thru the center. Most
> of these will have pretty high pole counts. 8, 12 or 16 poles. With
> more pole pairs, you need less back iron and depth below slots. But
you
> have some adverse affects, ie higher frequency.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>


> > --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't think a 2" or even a 3" shaft would make any
> > detectable
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jody Dewey said >>> "How about just flanges on each end of say a 9" motor that you could bolt
CV joint axles to? "

You must have a differential and in general a gear reduction beyond what the final drive normally provides. But that is an idea.

My design for an AC setup uses the hollow shaft idea and parts from an automatic to accept the final drive from a GM 4t60E HD tranny and uses the N-body car stock axles. Honda would be a minimal change.

I have bought the books and an old HT60E HD from the wrecking yard to disassemble for parts. I plan on designing the case and since the all the hard parts are available for the insides of the tranny aftermarket, i am not depending on GM for my parts.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would think it would be easier to just make a bracket for a regular 9"
ford axle and just stub it off without axle tubes. Just make the axle
tubes 3 inches or so and weld the flanges close to the pumpkin. Then
attach CV axles to the flanges. That way you wouldn't need to
manufacture all sorts of parts for the HT60E and the aftermarket for a
9" is HUGE. Also the ford differential is extremely strong and there
are positraction units available for it. You could either mount the
electric motor directly to the pinion or mount it above the pintion and
connect them with a chain. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 8:36
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

Jody Dewey said >>> "How about just flanges on each end of say a 9"
motor that you could bolt CV joint axles to? "

You must have a differential and in general a gear reduction beyond what
the final drive normally provides. But that is an idea.

My design for an AC setup uses the hollow shaft idea and parts from an
automatic to accept the final drive from a GM 4t60E HD tranny and uses
the N-body car stock axles. Honda would be a minimal change.

I have bought the books and an old HT60E HD from the wrecking yard to
disassemble for parts. I plan on designing the case and since the all
the hard parts are available for the insides of the tranny aftermarket,
i am not depending on GM for my parts.


_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I seriously doubt the motor shaft is part of the magnetic circuit, it
would indicate a very wasteful design. My worry was more what is the
largest hole thru a commutator that can be had?

While I hadn't considered doing this with a dc motor, I don't see why it
woudn't work. The problem is that a single ratio doesn't lend itself to
a single dc motor. I was thinking with the AC motor, I could just spin
it faster.

A lot of conversations talk about inline connection of dual 9's I think
in my rear drive car, i have a better idea. It has a chassis mounted
differential because it has independent rear suspension. I have dreamed
of makeing my own box that has a differential in it and instead of a
ring gear a dual roller chain sprocket. This goes up to two smaller
sprockets for two 9" motors side by side in the fuel tank area. This
eliminates the 90 degree power robbing rear end but keeps the final
drive ratio. What I would want for this is 2 9" motors that have splined
shafts and flange mount, like big hydralic pump motors.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"...re-inventing netgains..."

In idea only. One I had at least 10 years ago, gosh going on 20 years(yikes)

Useing the driveline scenario works great for pickups and large cars but
still turning the power 90 degrees thru a lossy hypoid gear set is
something I wanted to avoid.
Honda has the most effieient setup with crown and pinion, GM has most
compact with planetary gears on final drive.

I have this dream. It is of an entire car company making electric cars.
Every one of my designs fits in this imaginary car. Highly modular, open
standards at the electric,protocol, and mechanical interface level of
all modules. ( i just can't get Donald Trump to return my calls ;-) )

one aspect of the design is that it takes 1 or 2 motor drive units and 1
or 2 battery modules.(also 1 of 3 bolt on body parts to make
fastback,sedan,wagon) If a motor drive unit is in front the a arms that
connect to this housing have ball joints, if it is in back it has blocks
(unless you order 4 wheel steering option. This is why the motor drive
unit design is so co-linear and low profile.

I feel eventually we must break out of the constraints the ICE put on
vehicle design.

I have 3 test mules available for this configuration. I have done some
research on what is needed to build an induction motor from scratch and
what the material costs would be. I think i will pull the bed off my
truck and drop a unit in back. It would bolt to the frame and provide
all the suspension necessary so the leaf springs and solid rear axle are
gone. Without the driveline I have a nice place for a battery box in
front of rear drive unit. as well as in engine bay under the "boot's "
false floor

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you just re-invented a Corvette or Jaguar rear end .

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


>I would think it would be easier to just make a bracket for a regular 9"
> ford axle and just stub it off without axle tubes. Just make the axle
> tubes 3 inches or so and weld the flanges close to the pumpkin. Then
> attach CV axles to the flanges. That way you wouldn't need to
> manufacture all sorts of parts for the HT60E and the aftermarket for a
> 9" is HUGE. Also the ford differential is extremely strong and there
> are positraction units available for it. You could either mount the
> electric motor directly to the pinion or mount it above the pintion and
> connect them with a chain. 
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes but those are in short supply and cost huge bucks. You can buy a
ford 9" from the junkyard for $75 and cut and reweld the axle tubes
yourself. Then call Moser Engineering and give them the axle length and
they will make them for you for $150 a pair. You can also have them
make brand new axles for you with the flange pattern of the CV axles for
$100 more. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:18
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea

I think you just re-invented a Corvette or Jaguar rear end .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


>I would think it would be easier to just make a bracket for a regular
9"
> ford axle and just stub it off without axle tubes. Just make the axle
> tubes 3 inches or so and weld the flanges close to the pumpkin. Then
> attach CV axles to the flanges. That way you wouldn't need to
> manufacture all sorts of parts for the HT60E and the aftermarket for a
> 9" is HUGE. Also the ford differential is extremely strong and there
> are positraction units available for it. You could either mount the
> electric motor directly to the pinion or mount it above the pintion
and
> connect them with a chain. 
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:28 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
> 
> Yes but those are in short supply and cost huge bucks. You can buy a
> ford 9" from the junkyard for $75 and cut and reweld the axle tubes
> yourself. Then call Moser Engineering and give them the axle length and
> they will make them for you for $150 a pair. You can also have them
> make brand new axles for you with the flange pattern of the CV axles for
> $100 more.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>

Cougar, Thunderbird, Any 4x4 with independent front suspension?

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Good thought, most 1/2 ton 4x4 pickups are independant front suspension 
these days. Some SUV's have independant rears also. They would also have 
mounts. Rears would be more likely to have a factory limited slip. Honda 
comes to mind for a lightweight, or Ford for a heavy but strong one. I'd 
look around for something with an aluminum case to save weight. In a 4x4, 
the front end would probably turn the opposite direction from a rear end, 
and might be running on the wrong side of the gear teeth if used in the 
rear.

On the 9", you may be able to get the original axles cut and resplined 
cheaper. Some of the Jeepers do that.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[email protected]>
To: "EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


>
>
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:28 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
>>
>> Yes but those are in short supply and cost huge bucks. You can buy a
>> ford 9" from the junkyard for $75 and cut and reweld the axle tubes
>> yourself. Then call Moser Engineering and give them the axle length and
>> they will make them for you for $150 a pair. You can also have them
>> make brand new axles for you with the flange pattern of the CV axles for
>> $100 more.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>
> Cougar, Thunderbird, Any 4x4 with independent front suspension?
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Dewey, Jody R
>> I would think it would be easier to just make a bracket for a
>> regular 9" ford axle and just stub it off without axle tubes. Just
>> make the axle tubes 3 inches or so and weld the flanges close to
>> the pumpkin. Then attach CV axles to the flanges. That way you
>> wouldn't need to manufacture all sorts of parts for the HT60E and
>> the aftermarket for a 9" is HUGE. Also the Ford differential is
>> extremely strong and there are positraction units available for it.
>> You could either mount the electric motor directly to the pinion...



> Marty Hewes wrote:
> > I think you just re-invented a Corvette or Jaguar rear end .
> 
> Not quite; he's describing the 1989-1997 Ford Thunderbird / Mercury
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Lee,

Does the pinion still get enough lube with the axle flipped? I wonder if 
the pinion bearings used to be below the full line, now they are above? I 
know the front axle in my Ford 4x4 van (a Dana 44HD from a 1978 F250) is a 
high pinion, with the pinion above the axle centerline, but I don't know if 
they made changes to the inside of the case to assure enough lube up there.

Marty

>
> Not quite; he's describing the 1989-1997 Ford Thunderbird / Mercury
> Cougar rear end. We're using in the Sunrise II. We flip the differential
> upside down, and directly couple the electric motor to the pinion,
> behind the rear axle, to add ground clearance and make room for
> batteries in the center. But you could mount it normally, with the motor
> connected by a drive shaft wherever there's room.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Marty Hewes
> Does the pinion still get enough lube with the axle flipped?

A conventional differential runs the ring gear in oil, which gets thrown all around inside to lubricate everything else. But the oil is thick (usually 90 weight), so this adds a lot of loss.

So, we are adding a dry sump lubrication system. The oil level will be below the ring gear, and an oil pump will be used to spray the oil on the spots that need it. This should provide better lubrication as well as less drag.

I also expect to experiment with lighter weight oils. By measuring the wear particles, it should be possible to use a better quality but lighter weight oil to maintain lubrication. For example, the 2001-2003 Prius uses Toyota type IV oil for their differential (essentially normal gear lube), while the 2004-2007 uses type WS (a lighter grade, which adds 1-2 mpg). It is the same differential, they get the same amount of wear particles, but the type WS produces less loss.


--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. -- Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The idea I have is based on fitting either in the exact location up
front of the main transmission body of an N-body or similar mid size
sedan. Or fro example, dropping in place of the rear axle tube a motor
with rear independent suspension leaving room in front for a battery box
on a small pickup, or replacing the dead axle setup in a front wheel
drive for an aftermarket hybrid.

The 90 degree arrangement takes up a lot of space, but if someone wanted
to just use the motor with the single reduction to a tailshaft like the
transwarp, i was planning on offering that to.

Once I have a hollow shaft motor, they can be stacked or adapted much
easier. A keyed shaft is for constant rpm belt pulleys.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think there is no problem on the lube. The ring pulls the oil up and
crams it between the pinion teeth. which is where most the lube is
needed. Enough will fly into the front pinion bearing for sure it really
flys around in there wasting a huge amount of energy :-(

In the long run it might be good to have some kind of external sump and
a pump the lubes the bearings thru galleys and sprays oil at the mesh.
Race transmissions to this. Automatics do this to a lesser degree

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do cougars and Thunderbirds come with independent rear? An 8.8" rear
end would also be a great one to use. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:50
To: EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea




> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:28 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea
> 
> Yes but those are in short supply and cost huge bucks. You can buy a 
> ford 9" from the junkyard for $75 and cut and reweld the axle tubes 
> yourself. Then call Moser Engineering and give them the axle length 
> and they will make them for you for $150 a pair. You can also have 
> them make brand new axles for you with the flange pattern of the CV 
> axles for $100 more.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>

Cougar, Thunderbird, Any 4x4 with independent front suspension?

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > Do Cougars and Thunderbirds come with independent rear?
> 
> Yes, the 1989-97's all have it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That would be a lot easier to do that's for sure. You could get the
entire rear end assembly out of a Thunderbird.

I was thinking some kind of arrangement like this would be awesome for a
hybrid minivan. I would love to take an axle assembly, put the minivans
brackets on it, mount it under my town and country and use the EMIS
system to drive a 9" motor. Maybe a 120V assist. The only problem I
see is where to mount the batteries since my van has stow and go. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:01
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea



> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > Do Cougars and Thunderbirds come with independent rear?
> 
> Yes, the 1989-97's all have it.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/images/features/16_5_6/batterycharger.pdf


This atricle (hope the link works) shows an
interesting approach. See page 4. Two motors side by
side, each with a gear reducer and U-joint (or CV) to
connect half shft. Would seem to give an electric
differential and ability to series or parallel motors.

Jeff M




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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> 
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/images/features/16_5_6/batterycharger.pdf
> 
> 
> This atricle (hope the link works) shows an
> interesting approach. See page 4. Two motors side by
> side, each with a gear reducer and U-joint (or CV) to
> connect half shft. Would seem to give an electric
> differential and ability to series or parallel motors.
> 
> Jeff M
> 
> 
> 

Wow. I had thought of that same basic idea quite some time ago. His rendition is much nicer than mine would have been. ;-)
Thanks for the link.

I wonder if he'd consider selling those adaptors or their drawings....

--
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Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

And two sets of two motors, one set in front, one rear. I was contemplating 
an electric Lotus 7 clone for autocross, but he's way ahead of me.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Major" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


>
>
> http://www.racecar-engineering.com/images/features/16_5_6/batterycharger.pdf
>
>
> This atricle (hope the link works) shows an
> interesting approach. See page 4. Two motors side by
> side, each with a gear reducer and U-joint (or CV) to
> connect half shft. Would seem to give an electric
> differential and ability to series or parallel motors.
>
> Jeff M
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need a vacation? Get great deals
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> http://travel.yahoo.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Major wrote:
> >
> > http://www.racecar-engineering.com/images/features/16_5_6/batterycharger.pdf
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Major" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor Idea


>
>
> http://www.racecar-engineering.com/images/features/16_5_6/batterycharger.pdf
>
>
> This atricle (hope the link works) shows an
> interesting approach. See page 4. Two motors side by
> side, each with a gear reducer and U-joint (or CV) to
> connect half shft. Would seem to give an electric
> differential and ability to series or parallel motors.
>
> Jeff M
>
> Hi Jeff an' EVerybody;

Oh ! How delightfully the link worked(works)!We're arriving! The 
Wisper, great name for an EV! Now IF you fropped a sedan , soccor Mom type 
vehicle for the rest-of-us, could hsappen. The Siamese Motor concept taken 
to new heights. Looks like a GG-1 locomotive setup in miniature!GG's drove 
each axle, of 6 with two motors twirling a common bull gear.

Nice to see old tech upgraded! Late 18th century brought us alota cool 
stuff! Upgraded stuff to turn corners, as trains didn't have to handle 
quite like racecars<g>!

Seeya

Bob another EV name suggestion " Whispering Hope" 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Bob,

I'm glad the link worked for you. However I did not
get my own post back on the evdl list, so I gotta
wonder if it really is perfect.

And you're right. Kinda looks like Siamese motors
joined at the hip instead of the head like Jim H does.

Jeff M




> --- Bob Rice <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> 
> 
> Hey Bob,
> 
> I'm glad the link worked for you. However I did not
> get my own post back on the evdl list, so I gotta
> wonder if it really is perfect.
> 
> And you're right. Kinda looks like Siamese motors
> joined at the hip instead of the head like Jim H does.
> 
> Jeff M
> 
>

With one slightly huge difference..

The outputs of these motors are not connected; except "through the road".

Do you get any of your own posts? There is a toggle for that I believe.


--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

[No message]


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Tim,

I always get my own posts. Well except that one.

And not connected except thru the road gives you the
differential action.

Jeff M




> --- Tim Humphrey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> --- Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > And you're right. Kinda looks like Siamese motors
> > joined at the hip instead of the head like Jim H
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jim,

Yea, I had a hard copy laying around. Google helped
me find the link to post. Article was from May 2006. 
Wonder if he ever got it running well. I thought the
conjoined twins were cute, but was not impressed with
the rest of the system. You know that Martin Ogilvie
was (or is?) chief designer for Lotus Engineering and
responsible for the winning F1 cars of Mario Andretti
and Ayrton Senna. That was back in the 80's or 90's,
before I became an F1 fan. I hear F1 is going to
require regenerative brakes in a couple of years.

Later,

Jeff M





> --- Jim Husted <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > --- Jeff Major <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Those are co-joined twins.

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