# [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>From my understanding, what's important is the gassing rate. A brief pulse 
of 16 volts may not be harmful if the average current is low enough to keep 
gassing at the rate where the battery's recombinant reaction can keep up 
with it. 

Some good advice has crossed during this thread, including (IIRC) some very 
valuable suggestions from Roger Stockton, a gentleman with quite a bit of 
battery charging experience under his belt. I earnestly suggest that while 
you may be justifibly upset, you take a few minutes and reread what's been 
written here before taking any further steps.

There are many possible reasons for your apparent loss of battery capacity. 
An improper charging algorithm is only one of them. Still, I have to say 
that you're not the first person to report problems with ZivanUSA's support 
or concerns about their algorithm and overcharging. (Again, I encourage you 
to reread Roger's suggestions with regard to Zivan charger adjustments.)

However, particularly since you started with used batteries (I am 
remembering that correctly, no?), I doubt that you have a viable legal case. 
But I'm not an attorney; I suggest that if you're serious, you contact 
someone who is.

In any case, good luck. I hope you can keep the next set of batteries 
happily humming along for a few years!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I relayed my concerns to Zivanusa.com in writing and honestly
> > was told it was my fault my batteries were dying and that I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

At 12.55 volts at the end of your trip, the battery State of Charge is at 
about 80%. At 80% SOC, the battery charger should stay at the maximum 
voltage that is specific by the battery company which then keeps it constant 
while the ampere starts to taper off.

It looks like the charger is charging higher than that after you first turn 
it on when the SOC is at or over 80%.

A lot of times, I may only make a one mile trip and only take out 2.5 AH. 
Turning on the charger, the maximum voltage only goes to 14.4 volts in with 
20 seconds, and holds it there until the ampere tapers back which only takes 
another 3 minutes of charging with a PFC-50B charger which I can program my 
self.

If the battery SOC is between 50% to 79% SOC, then the maximum charge goes 
to 14.8 volts and holds it there while the ampere tapers to 2 percent of the 
ampere-hour of the battery which then shuts down at that time.

It looks like the battery charger is super charging the battery at a higher 
voltage. The only time I did that was back in 1976 with 300 AH cells with a 
specific gravity of 1.300 at a ambient temperature at 35 below 0 when I had 
to park my car at work in those temperatures to keep the electrolyte 
temperature above 35 degrees. Could take the battery voltage for 6 cells to 
16.8 volts with no problem at those temperatures which only took less than 
20 minutes to charge with a 50 amp SCR Full Wave Bridge charger.

15.6 volts is a equalization charge for most batteries. In my Trojan 
Battery Site, it does not recommended a equalization charge for AGM 
batteries. Only a normal and float charge.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 7:29 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.


>
> Hello Group,
>
>
>
> I thought I would update everyone on the situation with my recently 
> reprogrammed Zivan NG3 Charger and the 10 AGM 139 AH Batteries that were 
> showing signs of extreme overcharging.? I have neglected to publicly 
> mention the name of the company who I paid to reprogram the charger, in 
> hopes we could resolve this issue.? To recap:? After I had my Zivan NG3 
> Charger reprogrammed by ELCON at Zivanusa.com, I reinstalled it into my 
> car and found that it was actually finish-charging the newly installed AGM 
> batteries at pulses of over 16 Volts each.? I had sent the actual battery 
> specs to Zivanusa.com at the same time I sent the charger in to be 
> reprogrammed.? The specs clearly say the maximum voltage the batteries 
> should be charged at is 14.8 Volts.? I relayed my concerns to Zivanusa.com 
> in writing and honestly was told it was my fault my batteries were dying 
> and that I was driving them to a too deep Depth of Discharge.?I replied I 
> have always monitored my batteries closely and have ne!
> ver driven below a 50% DOD.? Most of my trips are no deeper than a 40% 
> DOD, or a remaining 60% Plus SOC.? My mileage has gone down from 37 miles 
> to a usable 16 miles now.? ZIVANUSA.COM has now stopped replying to my 
> emails.?
>
>
>
> On the advice of this group, I have recently driven the car as I normally 
> do (about 11 miles) and took readings on all the batteries.? They read 
> above 12.55 volts each at the end of the trip.? I then recharged the 
> batteries and was reading (again) pulses of 16 volts plus on each battery 
> at the end of the charge cycle. Immediately when finished, the batteries 
> read?over 14?volts each.? After 24 hours of sitting, the batteries were at 
> 13.6 volts
>
> or above each.? After 48 hours of sitting, they are still at 13.0 to 13.3 
> volts?each.? This seems awfully high when the specs for the batteries say 
> Fully Charged is 12.85 Volts.? I am certain this is killing my batteries 
> and I have found the support for my Zivan charger is terrible.? I WILL 
> NEVER PURCHASED ANOTHER ZIVAN CHARGER AGAIN.? And I certainly cannot 
> recommend the folks at ZIVANUSA.COM for service.? I have 1000 lbs of lead 
> in my car that is dying before my eyes.? I may indeed take Roland's kind 
> advice on legally recovering my losses!
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One more thing I forgot to add. The 12.55 voltage at the end of 11 miles 
would be a only voltage indication for a 80% SOC pack if the battery ampere 
is also at a maximum.

Lets say the batteries when new are a 1000 amp rated battery and in 5 years 
they are down to 500 amps, then even if the voltage is at 12.55 volts, the 
battery ampere that drop by one half, I consider that battery has reduce to 
50 percent in capacity.

Try to find a battery shop that has a battery analyzer and test the 
batteries to see what the ampere is. To do this test, you may have to 
charge it up first and than put on a slight load to remove the surface 
voltage.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.




> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > I relayed my concerns to Zivanusa.com in writing and honestly
> > > was told it was my fault my batteries were dying and that I
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > One more thing I forgot to add. The 12.55 voltage at the end
> > of 11 miles would be a only voltage indication for a 80% SOC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My battery chart from Trojan is saying that 12.50 volts is at 80% SOC.

My load tester that I use on my batteries, cannot tell me what the ampere 
rating it is at now. It will only tell me what the voltage drop in a 
certain amount of time at a certain ampere load using a 75 amp load tester 
for a proportional amount of the Reserved Minutes at 75 amps for that type 
of battery.

I find instead of using the 75 amp load tester, just drive the EV at 75 amps 
to a certain amount of SOC and record the voltage and ampere. I then compare 
that data with the same test perform when the batteries were new.

Using a battery shop analyzer, I found that my Trojans T-145's when new were 
950 to 1000 ampere and after eight years, they are down to 600 to 700 
ampere. My range is now proportional to the capacity of the battery or 
about 60 percent of the range when new and the voltage sags deeper when 
acceleration.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > > One more thing I forgot to add. The 12.55 voltage at the end
> > > of 11 miles would be a only voltage indication for a 80% SOC
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would test my batteries in the Mitsubishi similar to this. After my 7 
to 9 mile trip home from work (down to roughly 75% SOC) I would turn on 
my heater, and at roughly 10 amps I would quickly measure the battery 
voltages. The stinkers start to show themselves more so when the whole 
pack is partially discharged, even under slight load. I just don't have 
all the F-16 cockpit wiring like Roland and cannot read all my battery 
voltages from the cab ;-)

Mike




> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > My battery chart from Trojan is saying that 12.50 volts is at 80% SOC.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > My battery chart from Trojan is saying that 12.50 volts is
> > at 80% SOC.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > At 80% SOC, the battery charger
> > should stay at the maximum voltage that is specific by the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Roger,

I have one 12 V AGM accessory battery that is also charge with a on board 
charger that is set to the AGM mode. The maximum set point voltage is set 
to 14.1 volts according to Trojan. At end of charge, the voltage will spike 
to a higher voltage for about a second or two.

Then the battery voltage will drop to a maintaining voltage of 13.3 volts. 
This battery has now been going since 2002.

If a pack of AGM batteries are less than 6 months old and the final charge 
voltage is still over 14 volts after 12 hours rest, then something is not 
right.

When I choose a set of batteries, I first calculated the amount of 
ampere-hour I will use at the 75 ampere rate at the Reserved Minutes.

For example if you I have a 100 AH pack and the Reserved Minutes is 60 
minutes at 75 amps, then at about 50% SOC I then have about 60/2 = 30 
minutes of driving at 75 amps.

Ampere-Hour usage with a 100 AH pack will not be 100/2 = 50 ah at the 75 amp 
rate, but will be:

60 RM / 60 = 1 hrs

1 hr x 75 amp = 75 ampere-hours

Therefore at 50% SOC is the recommended ampere-hour usage is 75/2 is 37.5 
ampere-hours.

A person thinking that they have a 100 AH pack may discharge below the 50% 
SOC thus reduce the life of the batteries.

Roland








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.




> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > > At 80% SOC, the battery charger
> > > should stay at the maximum voltage that is specific by the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I had a similar concern with my FLAs. My NG3 is charging them to 2.7V/cell
(10.8V on an 8V battery) which seemed like a lot (plus my PakTrakr was
continually alerting me that I was overcharging, not to mention that the
garage smells like battery acid in the morning). I raised this concern with
Zivan USA (Elcon) and US Battery. Zivan (Elcon) said the charger is designed
to boil the batteries like this. US Battery said it shouldn't happen,
especially not daily (but said that once every 6 months was good). The
matter is still unresolved.
--Dave
http://www.evalbum.com/2500



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hello Group,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roger;

I have to agree with your assessment and questions.
My 15 mile round trip with 780# of AGM's has my pack at ~60% - 65% SOC.
It is fairly hilly, and I am doing ~ 50mph.
His 11 mile trip and a 75% SOC sounds about right to me. 


Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366




-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Stockton [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:31 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.



> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I relayed my concerns to Zivanusa.com in writing and honestly was told
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just got done talking to a U.S. Battery technician about this and he said 
the maximum charge voltage should not go above 7.75 volts for a 6 volt 
battery charge at a rate of C/10. The daily charge should start at 7.2 
volts if very little ampere-hour is removed using a standard charger 
non-programmable charge.

A charger that can be program to a maximum voltage which then hold this 
voltage while it taper back to about 2 percent of the ampere-hour rating of 
the battery which then shuts down at that point could be charge at the 
higher rate even if the battery is above 80% SOC and if the current time out 
or taper back is accomplish in with a very short period of time.

I said, with the batteries I have now where I may only sometimes remove only 
2.5 AH on my daily trip, I will charge them at 7.2 volts per 6 battery at 
C/10 or 25 amps which will reach the maximum set point in 20 seconds and the 
current will taper back to 2% of the 244 AH rating of the battery or about 
4.8 volts then the charger shut down in another 15 minutes.

I been doing this type of charging with the set of batteries I have now 
since 2002 which are down to about 60% capacity of the original ampere when 
new.

I said, what type of load test is recommended on deep cycle batteries? I 
said I have a adjustable load tester that goes up to 600 amp. He said 
loudly," NO " , only use a 75 amp load tester on these type of batteries. 
We only use equipment that applies a 75 amp load for a very short period of 
time in seconds, that gives us a read out of the Reserved Minutes at that 
ampere. It then calculates the maximum ampere capacity of that battery.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hale" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Update on Zivan Charging AGM Batteries.


> I had a similar concern with my FLAs. My NG3 is charging them to 2.7V/cell
> (10.8V on an 8V battery) which seemed like a lot (plus my PakTrakr was
> continually alerting me that I was overcharging, not to mention that the
> garage smells like battery acid in the morning). I raised this concern 
> with
> Zivan USA (Elcon) and US Battery. Zivan (Elcon) said the charger is 
> designed
> to boil the batteries like this. US Battery said it shouldn't happen,
> especially not daily (but said that once every 6 months was good). The
> matter is still unresolved.
> --Dave
> http://www.evalbum.com/2500
>
>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hello Group,
> ...


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