# Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

The major problem with small cells, particularly NiMH
which can't be charged in parallel without controls,
is the circuitry to manage them increases their costs
significantly.
A $2 battery with a $2 circuit board is effectively a
$4 battery. Therefore the engineering tradeoffs
depends a lot on the design of the "BMS" for the
cells.
There is also an issue of the "overhead" of the
container, smaller batteries incur a lot of overhead.
AAA battery is a particulrly bad choice. 
Batteries can be welded together with machines, the
cost of doing that is very little once the cost of the
welding machine is paid for. 

NiMH requires more complex "BMS" to work at all, other
chemistries can work without the complexity, although
in the long run they may not, i.e. unbalanced cells.

Jack Murray



> --- Nathaniel Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 8:22 AM,
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> Osmo S. wrote:
> > The flashlight example is a popular argument against pressure =
> 
> > contacts. Why doesn=B4t anybody use cameras or cell phones as an example?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

A nut and bolt is also a pressure contact.
Haven't seen many people welding together their
battery cables to their SLA battery terminals. =


My NiMH pack uses 10 cells welded together
with studs and nuts on the ends so you can replace a
10-cell unit.

Jack Murray




> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Osmo S. wrote:
> > > The flashlight example is a popular argument
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

On Sep 8, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Jack Murray <[email protected]> 


> wrote:
> 
> > The major problem with small cells, particularly NiMH
> > which can't be charged in parallel without controls,
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

A bolted terminal connection will typically be torqued to over 1000 lbs of =
force. Most end-to-end battery arrangements apply force measure in ounces =
or pounds, not thousands of pounds.

Phil

> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:27:45 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs
> =

> A nut and bolt is also a pressure contact.
> Haven't seen many people welding together their
> battery cables to their SLA battery terminals. =

> =

> My NiMH pack uses 10 cells welded together
> with studs and nuts on the ends so you can replace a
> 10-cell unit.
> =

> Jack Murray
> =

> =



> > --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > =
> 
> > > Osmo S. wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > A nut and bolt is also a pressure contact.
> > Haven't seen many people welding together their
> > battery cables to their SLA battery terminals.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> [email protected] wrote:
> >> I figured, you want to isolate the cells somewhat, so I was going to
> >> put them in strings of 10, and then lay those in strings of 10, so
> >> each '120v 2.3Ah pack' would have 100 AA cells. Then you would need
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

I have built a lot of battery packs for combat robots and you will NEVER see
an experienced bot builder using AAs. Sub-Cs are so superior in every way. 
There is a reason cordless drills use sub-Cs. It amazes me that they are
being considered here for EV use because they sag so badly and are typically
slow to charge. High amp draws will kill them quickly. Sub-C will shrug
off +30C rates without damage and are available up to 4.7 Ah (maybe larger
now). Sub-Cs are also much easier to charge quickly.
-Stephen Chapman





> Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >>> I figured, you want to isolate the cells somewhat, so I was going to
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

The spreadsheet I've been working on:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pQggObNV5V2X498vll-VpIA&hl=en

shows the same thing as you're saying. the Sub-C NiMHs seem promising,
certainly better than AAs.

Did you parallel sub-C NiMH cells? How did you handle the charging issues
people have been talking about?


-Nate



> enganear <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I have built a lot of battery packs for combat robots and you will NEVER
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> 
> The spreadsheet I've been working on:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pQggObNV5V2X498vll-VpIA&hl=en
> 
> shows the same thing as you're saying. the Sub-C NiMHs seem promising,
> certainly better than AAs.
> 
> Did you parallel sub-C NiMH cells? How did you handle the charging issues
> people have been talking about?
> 
> 
> -Nate
> 
>


> enganear <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I have built a lot of battery packs for combat robots and you will NEVER
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

You always charge single strings in series and then connect in parallel. 
Slight differences in voltage for charged packs is not a problem. Cell
reversal is the killer, but will not happen if all of the parallel packs are
charged before connecting. Never discharge NiMH below 0.9V per cell. Rest
voltage means nothing with these cells.

enganear wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Nathaniel Martin wrote:
>> 
>> The spreadsheet I've been working on:
>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pQggObNV5V2X498vll-VpIA&hl=en
>> 
>> shows the same thing as you're saying. the Sub-C NiMHs seem promising,
>> certainly better than AAs.
>> 
>> Did you parallel sub-C NiMH cells? How did you handle the charging issues
>> people have been talking about?
>> 
>> 
>> -Nate
>> 
>>


> enganear <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I have built a lot of battery packs for combat robots and you will NEVER
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Unfortunately that would be pretty hard to do in an EV, unless you've got a
whole bunch of contactors separating the strings before charging.
I guess that really rules out small-cell NiMH or EVs. LiFePO4 here I come!

-Nate



> enganear <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > You always charge single strings in series and then connect in parallel.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Lots of contactors! LOL.

Still.... you could use those same contactors to parallel / series connect
the pack to the load and maybe not need a controller. Hmmmm...
-Stephen Chapman


Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately that would be pretty hard to do in an EV, unless you've got
> a
> whole bunch of contactors separating the strings before charging.
> I guess that really rules out small-cell NiMH or EVs. LiFePO4 here I come!
> 
> -Nate
> 
>


> enganear <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You always charge single strings in series and then connect in parallel.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

From: Haudy Kazemi <[email protected]>
> Here are some thoughts on packaging AA batteries on the large scale:
> AA batteries are .56" diameter x 1.97" length (13.5-14.5mm x 51mm).
> If one wants to create a string of single cells in a tube, we need a 
> tube just slightly larger than .56" diameter. Some candidate tubes
> 0.569" ID for 1/2" copper
> 0.608" ID for 1/2" PVC Schedule 40 pipe
> 0.622" ID for 1/2" EMT conduit
> 0.675" ID for 1/2" IMC conduit
> 0.785" ID for 3/4" copper Type L pipe
> 0.811" ID for 3/4" copper Type M pipe

Nimh cells generate a fair amount of heat when charging, and when discharging at high currents. I'm worried that plastic tubing will trap the heat, while metal tubing can cause short cells.

> I haven't figured out how to hold/compress the cells.

I don't think the cells can withstand enough pressure to simply clamp them lengthwise. The nickel end caps make rather poor connections.

If you plated the ends with gold or silver, it would take a lot less pressure to make good connections. Gold is best, because it won't corrode if a cell leaks electrolyte on it.

> A higher density packing option is to try for 3 AA batteries across
> per tube... packed like this:
> O O
> O

A triangle in a round tube wastes a lot of space. But you may be on to something. Perhaps you could put 7 or 19 or 37 in a hexagonal array that is round enough to fit tightly in a round tube. This provides an air space between cells, so they could be cooled by blowing air through it lengthwise. You'd wind up with something that looks like a giant cylindrical cell, but delivers more volts and amphours.

As others mentioned, I doubt that AA cells would be the best choice. The sub-C size has a lot more to offer.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it. -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> > Unfortunately that would be pretty hard to do in an EV, unless you've got a
> > whole bunch of contactors separating the strings before charging.
> > I guess that really rules out small-cell NiMH or EVs. LiFePO4 here I come!
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Exactly, the NiMH charge controller I built is also a
DC motor controller, you parallel the batteries, and
also parallel low cost silicon to control them.
Eventually you guys will check the archives.

Jack Murray 



> --- matt <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If the strings are of small AH relative to the rest
> > of he pack, the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> > Onto a tangeant, here's a computer controlled battery charger
> > design/circuit board/plan with info/stats/config options including
> > measurements on internal resistance and self-discharge. It's basically
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2Cgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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dgoK


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Where do you get $6.50 for these Lithium cells, a
search shows two places selling them more than $11. =

=



> --- Nathaniel Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking at both options  At any rate any
> > battery pack is still in the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

I think the ZEVA LiFePO4 comparison page mentioned that if you buy them in
quantity of 1000+, the price is about 60% listed.
http://zeva.com.au/tech/K2/

-Nate

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Jack Murray <[email protected]>wr=
ote:

> Where do you get $6.50 for these Lithium cells, a
> search shows two places selling them more than $11.
>


> > --- Nathaniel Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm looking at both options  At any rate any
> > > battery pack is still in the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

2008/9/10 Lee Hart <[email protected]>



> > Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> > > At least LiFePo4 is a bit safer. [It] might burn under the right
> > > conditions, but at least not quite as explosive as other lithium
> > > chemistries.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

You have to buy direct and in bulk (1000 pc min) to get that price.



> Jack Murray wrote:
> 
> > Where do you get $6.50 for these Lithium cells, a
> > search shows two places selling them more than $11.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Correct. FOB Henderson, NV



> Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> 
> > I think the ZEVA LiFePO4 comparison page mentioned that if you buy =
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

So they are making a 60% profit selling them to R/C
and robot makers? Somehow I don't think that is the
case, its a very competitive resell business for such
profits. Has anyone bought them at this price?
I could call them and ask what they paid, betcha they
say $10.
Jack

--- Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:

> You have to buy direct and in bulk (1000 pc min) to
> get that price.
> =

>


> Jack Murray wrote:
> > =
> 
> > > Where do you get $6.50 for these Lithium cells, a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

Jack,

I guarantee that they sell them for that price.

Roger



> Jack Murray wrote:
> 
> > So they are making a 60% profit selling them to R/C
> > and robot makers? Somehow I don't think that is the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*

>> As a first guess, you could use two diodes per string...



> Nathaniel Martin wrote:
> > Good idea. Of course, this complicates ever adding regen (since you'd have
> > to switch the contactors first)... but one problem at a time.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] NiMH AA Packs*



> Haudy Kazemi <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >The peak currents for AA cells can be 2C-3C. The sub-C cells I see
> >online are rated up to 35 amps, which for a 4.5 Ah cell is about 8C.
> ...


----------

