# Hi , looking to convert a 2015 Renault Kangoo



## Van_guys (Aug 17, 2020)

Hi guys my brother and me are looking to convert a 2015 renault kangoo over to a direct drive motor with about 300 km range total weight 1900kg we figure including load/ev stuff

I'm having problems understanding all the math to figure out what motor we need to buy and what battery's we need to buy,i was wondering if there were any good resources for learning that i had failed to find .
our best guest so far is Parker GVM210-200 Electric Vehicle AC Traction Motor | 650 VDC - High Performance Zero Emission Racing Components .
know this probably a very basic thing but im sort of stuck.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Motor choice is important; it is certainly not trivial. Knowing the vehicle that you want to drive and the range you need is a good start (although the range is far more important to the battery choice than to the motor choice), but that's not all you need to know.

For one thing... what do you mean by "direct drive"? Some people use this term to mean a fixed drive ratio (which is confusing, because the drive system normally includes at least one gear reduction stage, so it's not direct by a long shot); some actually mean connecting a motor to a wheel with just a shaft (which is normally a very bad idea).


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## Van_guys (Aug 17, 2020)

My brother wanted to directly hook up the motor to the wheels to decrease maintiance (project was his idea so i started with that in mind), were've switched to using the exsisiting transmission as that seems easiest for out first project.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm not sure what part of the world you're writing from, but there is already an EV version of this vehicle - at least in the UK :KANGOO Z.E. 33
and Australia:KANGOO Z.E.
You would be hard pressed to practically duplicate what the OEM has already done.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Van_guys said:


> My brother wanted to directly hook up the motor to the wheels to decrease maintiance (project was his idea so i started with that in mind), were've switched to using the exsisiting transmission as that seems easiest for out first project.


You got lucky there, since directly connecting motors to wheels is a bad idea. 

Putting a motor in place of the engine on the same transmission is the easiest approach if you can readily mount the motor to the transmission... and that depends on the motor, the transmission, and your skills and resources. It works well, as long as you don't have a typical automatic transmission. You need to find a combination of motor shaft and coupling device that let you connect it to the transmission, and if you want to use a clutch (for shifting) you need to be able to mount a flywheel to the motor. Regardless of the shaft situation, you need an adapter to mount the motor housing to the transmission housing.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

electro wrks said:


> I'm not sure what part of the world you're writing from, but there is already an EV version of this vehicle - at least in the UK :KANGOO Z.E. 33
> and Australia:KANGOO Z.E.
> You would be hard pressed to practically duplicate what the OEM has already done.


I agree - DIY conversions are done as learning exercises, or to create vehicle types that are not available (EV sports cars, pickup trucks, etc), or as a reasonably priced way to build an adequate vehicle (as long as the value of the builder's labour is not counted). Just buying a used Kangoo EV would certainly have a better result than converting a gas Kangoo... but are they available at a reasonable price?

The existence of an OEM EV version brings up the possibility of using a salvaged OEM drive unit (motor with transaxle), but at some point if you used enough salvaged Kangoo EV parts you might as well just buy the wrecked Kangoo EV and fix it, if one is available in your region. It doesn't look like it's very expensive.


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## Tallat (Aug 18, 2020)

brian_ said:


> I agree - DIY conversions are done as learning exercises, or to create vehicle types that are not available (EV sports cars, pickup trucks, etc), or as a reasonably priced way to build an adequate vehicle (as long as the value of the builder's labour is not counted). Just buying a used Kangoo EV would certainly have a better result than converting a gas Kangoo... but are they available at a reasonable price?
> 
> The existence of an OEM EV version brings up the possibility of using a salvaged OEM drive unit (motor with transaxle), but at some point if you used enough salvaged Kangoo EV parts you might as well just buy the wrecked Kangoo EV and fix it, if one is available in your region. It doesn't look like it's very expensive.


Hi there I think we should establish communications. 
We both may have some very informations to share.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

I just had the neighbor give me an old electric 2009 Cleanova II two months ago. It took me six weeks to gain access to the four can controllers just to find out that the main power control relays will no close because of a battery error.
There are three 90v 80ah batteries so I pulled one out and found two cells that were very low, so probably will be more in the other two packs also. The worst thing is, there is no information about these batteries anywhere! Also no Renault dealers in the US.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

To be clear, this is an older, limited production, custom modified Kangoo that predates the modern OEM Kangoo Z.E. Post photos of the underhood components and batteries and their location, if you can. Someone may recognize the parts. AIR, these came out with a big splash, as you could imagine, with a big company like Dow involved with Kokam, the South Korea battery maker. They were only produced a few years. Then, Dow pulled out from Kokam. Kokam eventually got swallowed-up. So now you have a mostly orphaned vehicle. Again someone may recognize the components and have suggestions for replacement batteries.

You might consider starting separate posts for this project


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

Thanks electro
What you're saying is about the extent of my knowledge about it and just down the road from me is the XALT plant (Dow Kokam).
I was posting in this thread mainly to show that the complications of communication within an EV's controls are interconnected. The BMS CAN controller sends the battery faults and the power demand relay sees the fault and refuses to close. Even the charger will not charge with a fault being sent. These are useful safety features that are required.
But for me to just replace the batteries with something different would require extensive changes in other connected systems.
The motor is a TM4 from the Dana corp in Canada and the battery says it was made in France and is LI-ion but does no state the chemistry. 
I believe the van is from France from a faint logo removal saying "Societe Generale" above the windshield and the steering on the left side.
One last thing, there is no shifter, only a square button with an "R" on it whatever that means.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

What extensive changes would you have to make if you used a different battery? Does the battery have some odd arrangement of the 90V, 80Ah modules? I'm guessing they are in series making a 270V, 80Ah battery with a 21.6kWh capacity.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

Hi electro,
The batteries are in series making a 270V, 80Ah battery with a 21.6kWh capacity. One issue with the batteries is the permanently sealed construction which leaves me no choice but to attempt recovery of the bad cells.There seems to be some recent information that says 90% recovery may be possible. So this is the primary direction I plan to attempt first.

Replacing the batteries could bring up the capacity to something like 33kWh in the same space but that's where I see new problems also. The BMS on these batteries is likely sending non standard CAN bus information and even new battery manufacturers are all over the map as the standards keep changing.
The CAN information from the batteries is used by the Power Control Module and also the battery charger for safety, while the PCM is also measuring current to and from the batteries along with battery temp to be sent to the motor and controllers to run coolant pumps and fans.

In the Power Control Module there is a current loop around the battery positive wire, I was moving the wire very easily to tie it in a better position when I noticed one wire had pulled free from the connector plug. So I unplugged the wire and examined the connection only to find the wire was crimped using Pliers!
So I believe this is the source of all the dents along the side of the van....The wire pulled free while driving showing no current draw from the sensor while the motor was calculating the required current from the accelerator position! 
Well, I could be wrong but I fixed it correctly just in case.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

First, figure out the battery cell chemistry. Working voltages~1.2V - NiMH, 3.2V - LiFePO4, 3.7V Lithium-ion, other? 90% bad cell recovery? Do you have a reference for someone doing this? I've been watching people trying bring back cells in Tesla modules for several years. As far as I know: zero success rate, so far. Depending on a BMS or manual balancing to make-up for mismatched cell capacities, beyond a certain point, is asking for trouble.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll take a guess here that this is a battery box you've opened-up in the second picture. I think I see the ends of 24 cells(edit: only 23?) under the 4 battery monitoring boards(?) I see connections and leads(some you have removed?) for monitoring 6 cell on each of the 4 boards. 6X4= 24. 24 into 90V gives 3.75. Close enough to the Lithium-ion working voltage.

Here's a crazy idea: since you are so close to the remnant company of Dow Kokam, XALT, and they appear to be still making batteries, see if they can help you out. Emphasize to them the positive PR of helping maintain their good products from the past! Although, your battery might be from a source other than DK. Still might be worth a shot.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

I did check all the cells in all three packs and found the highest voltage was 3.63v. This is very close to a full charge for LiFe batteries but what are the chances that any cell would have a full charge.
On the tag it says Li-ion so I charged one cell up to 3.90v and it is holding very well, indicating that it is probably Li-ion chemistry (LiNiMnCoO2 ) since these are less likely to catch fire.
Took some time to build a circuit to attempt cell recovery using the method described here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331866931
The cell is starting at 0.0v so it will be slowly brought up to about 3.5v, then maybe just match them all up at about 3.65v and put them back in the car and finish charging.
It might be a good idea to charge it up to 4.00v first then discharge it back to 3.50v and determine if the amp hours are about par with the other cells. Caution is the word here.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Best of luck trying this out. If you remove the BMS boards, post a photo of the battery box construction. Is it die cast aluminum with a cooling fin/divider between each cell? Have you tried prying-out individual cells. How many cells have low(no) voltage?


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

Yea, I did pull a BMS board thinking I could remove the bad cells but all the cells are epoxy filled around the top of the entire box. The box is machined aluminum with water inlets on each end, so I didn't go any further knowing that trying to remove a single cell will be another larger problem.
I have already recovered some cells from 0.0v (inverted -40mv) with some luck but I'm sure from the charger data it's probably short of the full 80ah. I do hope the cell recovery method could bring them back further.
This does feel a bit dangerous though so I will try to monitor it closely for heat or worse.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Jeff66 said:


> I did check all the cells in all three packs and found the highest voltage was 3.63v. This is very close to a full charge for LiFe batteries but what are the chances that any cell would have a full charge.
> On the tag it says Li-ion so I charged one cell up to 3.90v and it is holding very well, indicating that it is probably Li-ion chemistry (LiNiMnCoO2 ) since these are less likely to catch fire.


LiFePO4 (LFP) *is* a lithium-ion battery chemistry: "Li-ion" does *not* mean LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC) or any other specific chemistry. In this case it luckily appears not to be LFP, but in general assuming that "Li-ion" means a nominal voltage of 3.75V is hazardous.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

Yes it was a bit of a risky move but there were other factors considered in that experiment. The cell was first charged to 3.60v and the amp hours were recorded. Then I looked for any drift over several days and noticed no change in voltage while I researched the type of chemistry used at the Dow Kokum plant. So at that point I charged with little current for several days as the voltage climbed I would stop charging and check for drain back to 3.60v which should easily be seen even at 3.63v but saw none even at 3.70v.
The fact that usually if the chemistry is LFP it is stated on the battery to avoid the issue I just went through, but when it only says LI-ion on the pack one needs to be a bit careful with other Lithiun chemistries.
That along with the charger data indicating that it could never be an 80ah cell with the Amp hours that went in to bring the battery up to 3.60v.

Now I am testing this method of cell recovery that feels dangerous but it appears to be working so far. I should know more in a few days. If it works out I'll post the results.


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

You might consider using thermal imaging to monitor the cells you're trying to revive. I think I read somewhere that Tesla, maybe another battery maker, use it to look for problem cells in their newly minted modules. Aren't there smartphone TI apps or add-ons? They might be useful so you would not have to use contact(fingers or thermometers) means of monitoring the temp.

This is getting far afield from the OP, and you are doing some interesting work here. You should move this to the battery section.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

I agree,this is going way off the original post and the moderator should probably cut from my first post to here and move it to Batteries or Restoration or just can it.


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## Jeff66 (Aug 17, 2020)

Well... It looks like saving the batteries is not possible. Some cells recover to a reasonable state and others have internal resistance and will not hold a charge.
If anyone is interested in the van for parts or for restoration, you might want to call Kevin at Tri City Used Cars before it is CRUSHED!
989-662-4360 ask for kevin.
Located in Michigan, USA
Sorry for this post, but I just hate to see it CRUSHED!


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