# Embarking on new conversion project, and I'm confused



## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

If you are going with AC it's very difficult to mix and match motors and inverters unless you are an expert on both. This can be done with DC series wound forklift motors as the number of variables involved are far less and can be boiled down to whether the motor is physically large enough, has good enough insulation, big enough brushes and can be timed right. With AC the motor insulation, number of poles, delta vs. wye winding, and a gazillion other factors are involved.

The motor you have found might well be big enough to power your vehicle, but it probably isn't ideal. Also keep in mind electric motors are rated at their continuous load, and inverters at their peak load. You want at least 3-4x the inverter peak load rating vs the motor continuous rating. For example my solectria AC system has a 30kw rated motor and an 80kw rated inverter. Its no hot rod, but its adequate.

With AC you need to buy motor and inveter combinations that are known to work together. So look at stuff being sold by EV retailers, and find and attend any local EV enthusiast groups you may have in your area.

Good luck.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I was looking for controllers and inverters all day, and I realize what you're saying. Too many variables. The motor I'm looking at is only $150, and I'm planning on putting it in a midget. The power should be fine, but the rest of the electronics has me scratching my head. The primary reason I wanted the ac was for longevity (brushes, etc., not that it's a big deal...), and for regenerative braking (a much bigger deal to me).

Ill see if I can find some more information about running this motor, and I'll look into some more DC stuff. I very much appreciate your response!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
The basic choices are
DC - can be cheap and cheerful - and lots of power
New AC - expensive and a bit wimpy
Re-purposed AC motors - I don't think I have seen anybody manage this
Motors from an EV - probably the cheapest and most power

For a Midget I would either use a Series DC - brushes and no re-gen - but you can probably ditch the gearbox as well

Or try and fit a Leaf motor - I would try and get a whole crashed Leaf and use as much as you can


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Welcome to the forum, jbman! The way you're talking about "inverter and controller" has me thinking you're looking at the wrong inverters. You don't want the kind that you add to a regular vehicle to turn 12 volts DC into 120 volts AC. The inverter you need is a controller, and very different from the 12vdc to 120vac kind. 

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

jwiger said:


> Welcome to the forum, jbman! The way you're talking about "inverter and controller" has me thinking you're looking at the wrong inverters. You don't want the kind that you add to a regular vehicle to turn 12 volts DC into 120 volts AC. The inverter you need is a controller, and very different from the 12vdc to 120vac kind.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk. -Yeah, a BlackBerry.




Thank you for that clarification! I have decided to dial back my expectations. I want this whole thing to cost 5k over the next year, so it's going to be a bit of a squeeze. I've got a line on the Midget for $250. I'll be checking it out tonight, and hopefully towing it back to my place! I found a kit on eBay that will probably meet my needs. It has more power than the original Midget engine (not exactly a feat...), and includes the controller, motor, and some odds and ends for $2k. Please tell me what you think of the kit, found here: https://m.ebay.com/itm/Complete-Ele...%3A5e884e6215f0ab66ab226523fffcd401%7Ciid%3A4

That leaves $2750 for batteries and getting the Midget up to snuff. Selling the original motor and some parts should tip that a little more in my favor. Should be doable!

I'm a little leery of that kit, given the price of other motors of similar power. It seems to me that the motor is being overdriven with liquid cooling to meet those numbers... I have concerns about longevity. The pump for the cooling will also eat some power, but installing a small cooler, hoses, pump, and reservoir will be cake.

I'll do some more research on the motor and see what I can find...


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

What do you think the weight of the Midget will be once you strip out the ICE stuff? Also, how much range do you want?

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Curb weight is about 2300 lbs, supposedly. The ice comes in around 250, tranny is 50. Losing the ice, gas tank, radiator, hoses, wiring, etc... I'm hoping to tip in just shy of 2k. I'd like to keep the tranny, I think.

Edit: less than that, actually, once you lose the exhaust system and such... motor and batteries will bring it above the original weight, but it'll probably feel faster with the torque and power curves of electric.

I'd like to get 30-50 miles out of the car on a charge. The more I look at the numbers, the less likely that seems.

Edit 2: curb weight I closer to 1600 according to Wikipedia.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Rule of thumb is about 100wh per mile, per 1000 lbs of car. Your weight is realistic. I would have guessed 2500 lbs myself. So figure 250wh/mile. Times 50 is 12,500wh of energy to drive that far. It's a stretch, and you would have to go with used batteries, but I think you could do it. 

Don't forget the golden rule of hot-rodding: fast, pretty or cheap -pick two. 

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

jwiger said:


> Rule of thumb is about 100wh per mile, per 1000 lbs of car. Your weight is realistic. I would have guessed 2500 lbs myself. So figure 250wh/mile. Times 50 is 12,500wh of energy to drive that far. It's a stretch, and you would have to go with used batteries, but I think you could do it.
> 
> Don't forget the golden rule of hot-rodding: fast, pretty or cheap -pick two.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk. -Yeah, a BlackBerry.




Haha, right? I may luck out yet with the Midget. The body is suspiciously clean from the pictures. We'll see in person, though. I don't need another rust bucket. I'm not entirely clear about the curb weight of the Midget, though, because Wiki says it's about 1620, which is pretty amazing when you take out the guts. 1200-1300lbs? Yes, please!


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Is there any reason I couldn't ditch the entire drive train, including the tranny? It seems to me that I could mount the motor to the transmission cross member location with some reinforcement, put a yoke on it, and run that through a drive shaft with a slip joint in the middle. Does that sound reasonable? I'd like to avoid as much drive train loss as possible, since the numbers are already pretty tiny. It also reduces the complexity of retaining the clutch and transmission.

I could mount the motor in the engine bay with a longer driveshaft and probably do the same thing, too... putting it under the car frees up room for batteries, though.

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Gosh I'm tired... 60 more miles to home. That being said, I have never seen such a straight car from the 70s, at least not for $250! This thing is unreal!










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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Ditching the transmission is an option, but you would want a motor that can give you more torque than your ebay motor provides. Remember that in 1st gear, most transmissions double the torque of an engine by 3 to 4 times. Most EVs have to double their motor power if they eliminate the transmission. 

If the bottom side is as clean as the top side you have a great project car? What's the condition of the 12v wiring? 40 year old wires are always suspect. 

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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

jwiger said:


> Ditching the transmission is an option, but you would want a motor that can give you more torque than your ebay motor provides. Remember that in 1st gear, most transmissions double the torque of an engine by 3 to 4 times. Most EVs have to double their motor power if they eliminate the transmission.
> 
> If the bottom side is as clean as the top side you have a great project car? What's the condition of the 12v wiring? 40 year old wires are always suspect.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk. -Yeah, a BlackBerry.




The car is 100% rust free aside minor surface rust here and there. I know stuff always pops up, but I checked everything. Floor pans are clean and smooth. I'll check it out in the morning and see [emoji4]

As far as the tranny... that ICE probably makes very, very little torque at low RPMS. It wouldn't surprise me if that motor at least matched it XD I'm looking at other motors as well, but that one seems to have respectable power. A little expensive, though... bleh.

1st gear appears to be 3.4~, and the rear end is between 3 and 4 from the factory. Maybe you're right about the tranny.

The torque at 1k RPM from the ICE looks like about 27.5 ft lbs. the tranny would bring that up to 93.5 off idle, and it increases from there... the electric motor beats the ICE, all other things being equal, but the ICE does better through the tranny for takeoff than the motor does with direct drive. I shall have to see what else I can arrange!

I'm unclear on the state of the wiring, but we shall see in the AM.

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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
That midget is far too nice to put that ebay motor in - not enough power not enough volts, I predict that it will be a slug

A Midget is not a sophisticated car! - it will be better with a DC motor and a decent bit of power

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...dubious-device-44370p15.html?highlight=duncan

My forklift motor cost $100 - the controller was $600 and it was enough to remove the need for a gearbox so that the motor went were the gearbox would have gone and freed up the entire "engine bay" for batteries

I used a Chevy Volt battery - much much cheaper and better than using Chinese cells


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> That midget is far too nice to put that ebay motor in - not enough power not enough volts, I predict that it will be a slug
> 
> A Midget is not a sophisticated car! - it will be better with a DC motor and a decent bit of power
> ...


Well, I'm more than happy to save some coin  I'm trying to understand how the forklift motors are generating sufficient power. Is everyone driving them above their ratings? I saw that you went with a Hitachi forklift motor. It sounds like I should find the highest possible voltage, largest possible motor if I want to do direct drive. Is that accurate?

Also, the eBay seller got back to me about that motor... it's only rated for 25 ft/lbs. We can throw that out the window! Searching for forklift motors now...


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
There is a thread on using forklift motors - worth a read

Basically there are two useful sizes - 9 inch in diameter and about 60 kg - and 11 inch - 100 kg
My motor in the forklift was 48 v and 200 amps - at that it would last forever

I started feeding it 144 v and 500 amps - that was good!
In something like Midget that would be able to break the rear tires loose and would give a top speed of about 80 mph

In my car with 55% of the weight on the rear wheels I have gone up to 1200 amps and 340 v
That is scary! - I drive at 45% current on the road - 540 amps

I would suggest
a 9 or 11 inch motor
The Paul & Sabrina Controller - $600 as a kit
Chevy volt battery - $2000 

This will give you enough oomph to give anything else on the road a fright


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> There is a thread on using forklift motors - worth a read
> 
> Basically there are two useful sizes - 9 inch in diameter and about 60 kg - and 11 inch - 100 kg
> ...


I found a couple of 11 inch motors from forklifts. I also found an ADC FB1-4001A for 300. That would be my preference. I'm trying to work out shipping arrangements. If the ADC motor falls through, I'll get one of the fat forklift motors I found.

As far as the midget, I just picked up a top, found some wheels/tires, and some little bits and bobs like a window crank and an antenna to start cleaning it up. It's in much better condition than my mustang was when I started on it, so I'm happy for an easier project! It definitely needs some shocks now, and maybe some springs later. I need to get a line on some small seats that wont look outrageous, as well. I also found some nice repro door panels, though I wouldn't call mine awful, I'd like to replace them. The brake system is very high on my list as well. I have been able to dig into it yet, but I expect to replace 90% of it. The steering column is a little worse for wear visually, but a new cover, turn signal switch, and ignition switch are probably all it needs. The car has this adorable rack and pinion, and turns very, very easily even when standing outside of the car and just leaning down with one hand. That being said, parts availability for this little thing is almost as good as it is for my Mustang!

I looked up the P&S controller, and they're selling it as a kit for $700 unsoldered. If the unit were fully assembled, I'd happily buy it, even at a higher price. Soldering boards is not my forte. I'll see if I can find any reasonable alternative. If not, I'll take that on.

I found a used Curtis 1231C-8601 at a reasonable price. Is a used controller a good option, or should I spring for new? I am unsure how these things fatigue.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I was looking for a forklift motor, and I did find several that matched your description, but they were prohibitively expensive. Called/email industrial repair joints, Craigslist, eBay, etc... 

I finally landed a K11 at what I hope is a good price, new in the crate. Compared to the prices of the forklift motors I could find, I'm happy with the Kostov.

I pieced together the parts for a direct drive setup, though I haven't purchased anything. I need it all mounted before I can measure the length for the driveshaft. I'm planning on mounting the motor in a cradle suspended between the stock engine mounts. I'd like to mount it low enough to allow the drive shaft to pass all of the way through, and maintain a good angle.

At this point, I'm trying to find a controller that will push 250V at 1k amps. I've decided against that Curtis controller I had mentioned earlier. I don't know if I'll use all of that power right now, but I'd rather build to the capability of the parts and spend a little more on the front end, instead of buying everything all over again in the future. Does that make sense?

I'll deal with batteries and a charger soon. I'm looking for a volt battery like you recommended, and I found a few decent deals so far. I think those batteries will work well.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
Try and fit the motor a lot further back - ideally where the gearbox normally lives
For weight distribution and for battery space
Batteries are bulky and you really want them as low as possible - in my car the whole "engine bay" is for batteries and I could not fit my whole Volt pack - I fitted 6 off 2Kwh modules and 2 off 1Kwh modules but the remaining 2Kwh module is sitting in my workshop

Forklift motors - you need to go to the forklift repair place with cash in hand - they keep motors "Just in case" then scrap them off - normally the day before you visit

I'm using the Paul & Sabrina - 350 V 1400 amp controller - I have a Beta version


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> Try and fit the motor a lot further back - ideally where the gearbox normally lives
> For weight distribution and for battery space
> Batteries are bulky and you really want them as low as possible - in my car the whole "engine bay" is for batteries and I could not fit my whole Volt pack - I fitted 6 off 2Kwh modules and 2 off 1Kwh modules but the remaining 2Kwh module is sitting in my workshop
> ...




Ah! I did not see that they had such a controller. It's not listed on their site. It sounds like it's still a work in progress; is that right? Either way, given the prices of these controllers, I'd be willing to get out the soldering iron if they have a kit to sell!

Good point about putting the motor closer to the original transmission location. Once I get the motor in, I'll do some measuring and see what can be done. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to run some beams from the transmission crossmember forward to the motor mounts. It might stiffen up the front end a bit, too! I want to avoid drilling into/welding on the body as much as possible... it's just too nice!


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I've been working on the interior and such while working in figuring out the electrical part of this endeavor... made some progress!










I still need to tear out the ICE and such, but I'm not in a huge hurry at the moment.

I managed to get some new lever shocks from an MGB at a salvage yard, and I have new wheels ready waiting for some rubber. I'm taking delivery of my K11 tomorrow. I'm still trying to puzzle out a controller right now. I've learned a lot about pulse width modulation, semiconductors, and batteries. So that's cool. I've got some bits and bobs coming in for testing.

The K11 is rated for 250 volts and about 210 amps, so I'm seeing what it would take to make a controller myself or with a kit to match the motor. I was leaning toward spot welding my own battery packs together, but the Chevy Volt packs seem just as efficient, so we will see. Lots of decisions to be made.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
That is rated power - it is usual to slightly exceed those numbers in the search for automotive excellence

My 11 inch Hitachi is "rated" at 48 v and 208 amps
So I feed it 1200 amps and 340 v - it hasn't melted (Yet)


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> That is rated power - it is usual to slightly exceed those numbers in the search for automotive excellence
> 
> My 11 inch Hitachi is "rated" at 48 v and 208 amps
> So I feed it 1200 amps and 340 v - it hasn't melted (Yet)




Haha, just "slightly" exceeding the rating, eh? I'm thinking that I'll run it at 250 volts, but I want to be able to provide 1000 amps, even if I decide not to use it at that rating for the moment.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I've been emailing back and forth with Paul about his controller, and he's going to sell me a populated, high power DC control board. I'll assemble it from there. So that's another step of the planning done! He has a great set of instructions up, so I'll follow those to make my controller. Now I just need to figure out the BMS and charger situation.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I picked up the motor at the terminal today. It's not exactly what I would call "New in box!"... thank God for buyer protection on eBay!









The crate was in multiple pieces by the time I got to it at the terminal. Lots of broken parts. I guess the hunt is on for another motor, pending my eBay case.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Try your friendly local Forklift repair or motor re-wind shop
And go in person with folding money

You want to rob their "just in case" pile before they send them to the scrap metal guy

I have had zero success talking to them on the phone - but dropping in seems to work


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Try your friendly local Forklift repair or motor re-wind shop
> And go in person with folding money
> 
> You want to rob their "just in case" pile before they send them to the scrap metal guy
> ...




I'll give that a shot. The seller doesn't accept returns, so depending on how this eBay case goes, I might end up with a refund and the motor, anyway.

If I end up having the motor, I'll see if I can clean it up. Otherwise, I'll be looking into repair shops 


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I just had another call to eBay this morning to try to resolve the issue. I found that the seller lifted the "New in crate" picture and description from another site where some random dude posted his motor for sale. Closer inspection revealed that this is a completely different motor. The seller was trying to pull a scam, and my money has been locked up in the pits of PayPal and eBay since my purchase on October 30. eBay say I have to wait another week to get it back while they harass the seller. I reported them to eBay as a scammer, and eBay agrees. But we still have another week to go at the very least.

In other news, I bought some chevy volt battery packs, so at least I can work on that bit while I wait for my return and refund.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I picked up 4 2013 Chevy volt 48v packs, so I'm looking to get one more for the time being to get in the 250ish v range. I got each pack for 235 bucks, so I'm happy about that. All told, I think I'm going to be pretty close to the original weight of the Midget, and I'm not planning on going too far with it. Just Saturday date driving. I'll post some pictures of the stuff I've gathered so far soon.

I closed the eBay case, and decided to just keep the motor. The price was decent for what I got, despite the scam attempt. The seller had stolen the photos and description from some other site in July, and sent me a completely different motor than he listed... I had a bad attitude about it and decided to just let it go eventually.

As far as mounting the motor in the engine bay, I was thinking of using one of these: Motor Cradle

I want to put that near the middle of the motor to locate it on the original motor mounts, and then bolt angle iron to the front and back of the motor. The angle iron would go to the sides of the engine bay... somewhere. I'm sure there's some mounting point I could use.

I was looking at Duncan's original advice of pushing the motor as far back as possible, but only the motor shaft would make it into the tunnel. The body of the motor is gigantic! That being said, with 5 batteries in the trunk, I think it will be OK. That's about 250 lbs, and the batteries have a pretty small footprint. I'll see how they fit when I get home today, as they're there waiting for me already!

Does anyone have any advice for a good BMS solution for the volt cells? I'll have 180 cells with 5 packs. I was looking at the other thread with the Cell log, but I want a more hands off system.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

I want to get another 1.5 packs. They're really nice!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Talk to the guy you are getting these from
see if he still has the T shaped base plate

If you drill the spot welds off you get these nifty mounting plates 

The ears on the cells go into one side and then a clamp plate goes down on the near side 

These two were made with a bit of cutting and welding to make two to hold my two batteries in place

I'm pretty sure that the bottom plate and the clamp plates will just be thrown away 

There are a LOT of spot welds - but IMHO it's well worth it


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Hmm, That's pretty neat! I'll have to ask about that. Are you using the liquid cooling for your battery pack? There are lots of the end plates for sale, so I was thinking of just buying 3 of each, and connecting the hoses all in series. Space is at a premium in the Midget, so I won't be able to connect all of the cells in a single row.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm using the water cooling
I used three 48v modules and 1 24v module stacked together in a line and then another of the same way

I put the whole thing on end and used a hose to get it full of water and get the air out


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> I'm using the water cooling
> 
> I used three 48v modules and 1 24v module stacked together in a line and then another of the same way
> 
> ...




Ah, yes, I saw the pictures of you filling the coolant passages! I don't have nearly that much space, so we shall see! These batteries are a really nice solution, though. Lots of power on the cheap.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I spent a bit of time over the last week tearing apart the ICE and putting a new interior in the car. I also installed a new master cylinder and got the brakes working. No leaks, so far! Quite a pleasant surprise. I also got some rubber on the new wheels yesterday and fitted them to the car. I also fitted a new gas pedal (the hinge for the old one had literally rusted into two pieces...) and throttle cable.

I'm getting all the car bits ready while I wait on the electrical bits.

I ordered a TC 3.3Kw charger, and I've decided to use it over a CAN bus from a ZEVA BMS. This seems like the most economical system that still meets my needs and has room for expansion in the future. I would have used one of their controllers, too, but I felt like it was not a good match for my K11. I want to run 200v, but their controllers are only rated for 144v.

ZEVA just released version 3 of their EV management system, and it looks awesome! I don't know if you all have seen it, but you can find more info here: http://www.zeva.com.au/

The last significant piece I'm trying to figure out is how to mount the electric motor. I've seen some cradles here and there, which look like they would work very well. However, since I won't be using a transmission, I need to mount the motor very solidly, since the face of the motor won't be held in place my the transmission plate.

How I mount the motor has a big impact on where I put the batteries. I'd like to put the 4 packs in the engine compartment, like we mentioned earlier, but that requires me to push the motor down and into the tunnel a bit, I think.

In conclusion, I really need to take some more pictures so you all know what I'm asking about! I'll take some when I get home to show off all the progress I've made  I very much appreciate all of your insights.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Hey jbman, I am quite envious of your project.

My car is not road legal and is probably slighly lighter than yours will be. I originally chose a Curtis controller and it was nothing but disappointing. I then changed to the ZEVA 1000amp unit and I couldn't be happier. I am running it off the Volt cells at 174Volts and a maximum of 1000amps at the motor, 500amps at the battery. I think if you achieve similar numbers you will be happy with the performance. Although you will likely need to upgrade the wheels and tyres to manage the power.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks, Galderi! I don't know exactly what to expect from the project performance wise. Hopefully we will know in a couple months! I would love to be able to light up the (admittedly) tiny tires. If this car were half as fast as my Mustang on completion, I would be stoked.



I strongly considered the Zeva controller, but I really wanted to up the voltage a bit since my motor is rated for 200/250 volts. Their controllers happily talk to the rest of their management system out of the box over CAN, which is very appealing. I'm waiting to receive my control board for Paul's HV controller. It's the only thing that meets my requirements, is available, and does not cost $5,000. I would have been happy with a Soliton1 as well, but I couldn't find one at a reasonable price, and I'd like to work with Paul if something breaks. He has been incredibly helpful with my questions. I wish he had a kit released for the high voltage model - I'd have bought it in a heart beat.

Edit: additionally, I took this photo of the wheels I chose. They're all messy from the lube stuff they use to mount the tires, but I like the style. I went from 2 flats, a miraculous survivor, and a bare rim to a nice full set ^_^









I am waiting in the seller to send me the MG center caps.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

If half the Mustang is your benchmark I'd be surprised if you are disappointed particularly considering the numbers you are talking about.

Here is one of my videos as a reference. 
This is a 1170lb front wheel drive car. The front tyres are 250 wide slicks. But it does run a full gearbox so your launch might be sacrificed a little by going direct drive to the diff. Oh and keep in mind the on the day this video was taken I came mid field beating 50% of the Lotuses and Porsches. Power was not my weakness, rear grip was the major issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXhOVGg55hI


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Haha, that's a great video. I took the Mustang to auto cross once here in CO. It's made to go fast in a straight line while handling "well enough." It's just way, way too much power for an unseasoned driver such as myself. That awkward moment when you realize you're a builder and tinkerer, not a driver...

I found a guy here in town that will make an adapter plate for me for the face of the motor. I just sent him the motor data sheet and my sketch. We shall see what the price is. I'm getting so close!


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I finally got the engine and transmission pulled. I started cleaning up the engine bay and removing non-essentials. I also loaded the motor and dropped it off at the machine shop so they could make sure the bolt holes are exactly like I want them. All this stuff was a lot to muscle around in an evening, but the hard stuff is almost over!

I picked up a 2 ton hoist off a trading site, so I was finally able to get this bit finished.









I have another question that I'm struggling with, however. As far as the 12 volt system, the battery is charged from the DC-DC converter. Do I need to do anything special, or can I just wire the converter to the battery terminals, and the battery to the system as normal? I believe there's some kind of regulator traditionally used with an alternator. Does that setup need to be replicated to safely charge the 12v battery from the converter? I'd also kind of like to go with a lithium battery for the weight savings, but I'm unsure what capacity I would need. I really haven't made any decisions in this area yet, so it's all up in the air.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

The original lead acid starter battery is more than you'll need in terms of weight and capacity. I used a U1 lawn tractor battery- works perfectly, and drops the weight a fair bit.

If I were to do my project again I'd likely ditch the DC/DC entirely in favour of a slightly larger lead-acid or Li ion pack which is charged whenever the main pack is charged, just to save a few dollars and to ensure perfect isolation between the high and low voltage systems. But the DC/DC needs no special regulator- it is a regulated power supply, so its output can just be put in parallel with the battery terminals (with a fuse to protect the wires) and you're done. The lead acid experts here may have a more knowledgeable opinion, but since I only drive mine spring through fall I also take it out and put it on a maintainer over the winter- that gives it a 14.4V "balance charge" about once a month or so to keep it from sulphating. Almost 4 years and still on my 1st lawn tractor battery- so far, so good.

The Chevy Volt BMS has been hacked- if I were to re-do my project with Volt batteries I'd be getting a hand from someone to help me read the data directly from the Volt BMS over CANbus- that's the cheapest option by far, and an OEM BMS is going to likely have more durability than the low volume ones intended for the DIY market.


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Moltenmetal said:


> The original lead acid starter battery is more than you'll need in terms of weight and capacity. I used a U1 lawn tractor battery- works perfectly, and drops the weight a fair bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for that insight! I had considered using the Volt BMS, but I couldn’t find much information, and it seemed to me that it would probably give me a bunch of trouble since I’m only using a portion of the pack.

I will look again and see what I can find.

I figured a small battery would probably work, but I wanted to be sure. I want to go with a converter so that I can run more accessories in the future should the need arise. Thanks for that as well!


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, the DC control board came in over the weekend. I’m very excited to start building the controller! I still need to purchase the current sensors, a thermistor, and the small converter to power it. I also need the raw metal for the base and case. 

My charger also shipped (finally). I’m looking forward to getting some of this stuff in hand so I can mock it up.

And lastly, my mounts for the motor will be ready very shortly. I bought a generic ring mount for the back from an EV shop, and had a local machine shop make the front plate.










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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Big day for the project! I picked up the front mount and mocked everything up. This allowed me to measure the location of the driveline. It needs to come up between 2.5 and 3 inches to clear to my satisfaction. It will fit perfectly, based on my measurements.

The fan is a little close right at the back, but it fits. Once it comes up a couple inches, it will clear easily.

I’m getting a ring to mount around the middle/back of the motor, and I’m planning on mounting the brackets to a single, long piece of rectangular stock, one for each side. I’ll then bolt the stock to the frame.
I’m hoping to mount the volt batteries on top of/in front of the motor, but I think it will be a tight fit.

Excuse my immensely messy garage 











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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Got some goodies today.









The charger is much nicer than I anticipated, and the capacitor is huge! The instructions for the charger kinda suck, though. 

I’m hoping to put in an order for the rest of the bits to build my controller and get the car moving over the weekend.


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## goingbush (Jun 20, 2017)

jbman said:


> <snip>
> 
> The charger is much nicer than I anticipated, and the capacitor is huge! The instructions for the charger kinda suck, though.
> 
> ...


I got the same Charger from Alibaba, came with chinese instructions, but found this instruction in english on internet. (link below) I ordered mine without CanBus & my Zeva BMS controls it via the enable lead, Works as advertised. 

http://goingbush.com/ptev/3.3charger.pdf


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

goingbush said:


> I got the same Charger from Alibaba, came with chinese instructions, but found this instruction in english on internet. (link below) I ordered mine without CanBus & my Zeva BMS controls it via the enable lead, Works as advertised.
> 
> http://goingbush.com/ptev/3.3charger.pdf


Thanks for that! I found those instructions last night when looking about. Quick questions for you: which hole does each letter on the plugs correspond to, since you have yours running? The letters fall right in between the holes, so it's kinda tough to tell!










I'm preparing to plate some orders for components, and I'm still trying to figure out a good dc-dc converter. This one seems like the most cost effective, but I'm not sure that it's sufficient because the listing doesn't mention if the converter is isolated: 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/?qs=%2b6mEGs9UJHwFxUHUNq/DMw==

This other one is isolated, but costs twice as much:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...482.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.72ecf4d8VPAFjI

What do you think?

I'm getting the driveshaft components ordered as well, and I decided to move to 1310 ujoints for the new shaft instead of the tiny ones that came stock.

For reference, I'm planning on using these components for the drive shaft, listed in order from the diff towards the motor:

Differential flange to driveshaft flange: Spicer 2-2-899-1

Driveshaft end to flange yoke: Spicer 2-26-347 (2 inch tube, .120 tube wall thickness)

Driveshaft tube shaft to slip yoke: Spicer 2-40-1701 (2 inch tube, .120 tube wall thickness, 16 spline male)

Driveshaft slip yoke to motor yoke: Spicer 2-3-8021KX (16 spline female)

Motor to yoke end: Spicer 2-4-503 (1.125 shaft, .25 keyway)

Moving right along!

EDIT: I just saw this... that makes it more clear!


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## goingbush (Jun 20, 2017)

JB, if you measure the pins coming out of the charger A&D are linked ( to traction pack +ve ) and B&C are linked (Negative) - It would have been nicer to use a 2 pin connector . Chinese ... meh !!

I knew I drew a diagram & serached through my notes then found it on the back of my notepad, I think you worked it out but for whiw


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## goingbush (Jun 20, 2017)

The first DC-DC converter you listed would not work for me, Im converting a 4x4 I need water -resistant splash-proof . 

( I never saw the second one - it would be fine I guess) 

I found what I thought was an absolute bargain, and when it arrived I was so impressed I bought another as a spare or incase I decide to piggyback, but since I don't drive at Night I think 50A is plenty , (especially considering my old Alternator was only 35Amp) 

https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/prod...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.11.75624613S5uOeo


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

goingbush said:


> JB, if you measure the pins coming out of the charger A&D are linked ( to traction pack +ve ) and B&C are linked (Negative) - It would have been nicer to use a 2 pin connector . Chinese ... meh !!
> 
> 
> 
> I knew I drew a diagram & serached through my notes then found it on the back of my notepad, I think you worked it out but for whiw




Ah, that’s good confirmation. Thanks!



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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

goingbush said:


> The first DC-DC converter you listed would not work for me, Im converting a 4x4 I need water -resistant splash-proof .
> 
> ( I never saw the second one - it would be fine I guess)
> 
> ...




I would love to use one of those, but my battery pack will be at 196.8v when charged, and that seems to go past the limits of most 144v converters. I’ll check what’s listed on alibaba, though. Thanks!


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

So I’ve got the dc-dc sorted out - I got one from the same folks that I got the charger from. I also got the driveshaft in, so I had a shop cut, weld, and balance it yesterday. I got that installed this morning and hooked the motor up to an old car battery. Everything turns very nicely  it was easily able to move on just the flat battery. 

I want to change the oil in the diff at some point, and I probably will soon now that I can drive it onto ramps!

The controller is nearly completed. I got my copper last night, and I should be getting the nomex today.

I also have the “fuse box” nearly wired, since I’m rewiring the entire car. Bleh.

Lastly, I got the evms and monitor from Zeva. 

I’m still looking for a suitable reversing contactor, if anyone has recommendations.

It’s been a busy few weeks!


















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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, I’ve made a ton of progress. Almost everything is wired up, most of the interior is done, most of the gauges work and all the lights and switches function. The batteries are mounted in the trunk, controller and dc-dc are mounted in the engine bay. ZEVA BMS is functioning, and the charger is working. I’m waiting on a control board and some wire to button everything up and drive the car, essentially. 

Here are a few pics:










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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

To close this out for now, it runs and drives. It still needs a lot of work, but I'd chalk this up to a big success at this point. This video is taken gently rolling up to just under half throttle, and it's very, very fast. It has a considerable advantage over my supercharged '66. So that's fun.


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Nice work there, and quite quick too.


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## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Well done- man, you needed so much less help than I did to get to your destination! You're going to have a lot of fun with that car!


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

jbman said:


> Well, I’ve made a ton of progress. Almost everything is wired up, most of the interior is done, most of the gauges work and all the lights and switches function. The batteries are mounted in the trunk, controller and dc-dc are mounted in the engine bay. ZEVA BMS is functioning, and the charger is working. I’m waiting on a control board and some wire to button everything up and drive the car, essentially.
> 
> Here are a few pics:
> 
> ...


So, now I'm confused. Your controller looks like it has three wires going to the motor. Is this part of the motor reversing system? Although, it looks like you have a 2 contactor reversing system in the gray box.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
It's the Paul & Sabrina high power controller

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that one of the problems with using several IBGT's is getting them to share the current nicely 
Paul's ingenious solution is to have each one with a length of cable of it's own before the three join together - this gives a small resistance and a small voltage - enough to balance the three IBGT's 

On that point
What current are you using? - I have mine set to 1200 amps


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> It's the Paul & Sabrina high power controller
> 
> My understanding (which could be wrong) is that one of the problems with using several IBGT's is getting them to share the current nicely
> ...


I have it limited to 1000 amps with my K11. The axle wrap is so bad, however, that I'm not comfortable accelerating very quickly at the moment. It gets really gnarly between 500 and 600 amps. The whole nose of the diff lifts several inches and throws everything out of alignment. I'll be putting on some traction bars and checking that everything is tight on Wednesday. I can't wait to really give it a go, it's a rocket ship.

Between 0 and 300 amps, however, it's very peppy and smooth. Quite pleasant, actually. Cruising amps around 40 are lower than I thought they would be, as well.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I have some switches on my dashboard
They put resistors in parallel with my throttle pot

For road use I drop to a maximum (full throttle) of about 45% - which is fine for the road

On some of the grass events I drop to 20% - and I'm still not pushing the pedal all the way down

100% is for the track


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Hi
> I have some switches on my dashboard
> They put resistors in parallel with my throttle pot
> 
> ...


That's a great idea. It might be kind of fun to just have a knob... only because I'm just about out of space on the dash, and it feels neat to "turn it up"!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

jbman said:


> That's a great idea. It might be kind of fun to just have a knob... only because I'm just about out of space on the dash, and it feels neat to "turn it up"!


How about numbered markings around the knob from 0 to 10, but with one more mark, so you can *turn it up to 11*?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Thinking about it with a midget back end you may want to change the software and drop that 1000 amps down a bit

I'm not sure that you ever want to put that much torque into that axle and suspension! Although tyre spin may drop the loads down to those the axle can live with


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

Duncan said:


> Thinking about it with a midget back end you may want to change the software and drop that 1000 amps down a bit
> 
> I'm not sure that you ever want to put that much torque into that axle and suspension! Although tyre spin may drop the loads down to those the axle can live with



That’s my plan, essentially. I’ll drive it gently for now with an open diff and my skinny tires. I want to swap the entire rear end later, however.


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## clynn85 (Dec 21, 2018)

Thoroughly enjoyed reading your impromptu build thread here. Any updates on the car? Things you'd change or have changed?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

clynn85 said:


> Thoroughly enjoyed reading your impromptu build thread here. Any updates on the car? Things you'd change or have changed?


The driveline angle is a minor issue, I'd have mounted the motor a few inches higher. That might be resolved with new springs, though. All things considered, I'm very happy with the build. I have lots of pictures of it and the new one here if you want more info: www.jeffeblack.com.

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## clynn85 (Dec 21, 2018)

jbman said:


> The driveline angle is a minor issue, I'd have mounted the motor a few inches higher. That might be resolved with new springs, though. All things considered, I'm very happy with the build. I have lots of pictures of it and the new one here if you want more info: www.jeffeblack.com.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


I've definitely been combing your website sucking up as much info as possible. I love the simplicity of this build. Any more videos of the car?


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## jbman (Oct 26, 2017)

clynn85 said:


> I've definitely been combing your website sucking up as much info as possible. I love the simplicity of this build. Any more videos of the car?


I don't have any others at the moment, but I plan on taking a few this summer... gotta get at least one burnout video 

I didn't want to over engineer the MG. I wanted a car that met my requirements (50 miles of range, screaming fast, and something cool), and there was no need to make the build harder than it had to be. I'd rather have a complete car that I love driving than a project that gets parted out after 8 years of it sitting in the garage incomplete.


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