# Affordable Lithium batteries on the way.



## TJL (Feb 7, 2008)

Great to hear but what is the definition of "affordable"?


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## BrianWillan (Feb 22, 2008)

TJL said:


> Great to hear but what is the definition of "affordable"?


Affordable is a moving target, I agree with that. If you are inclined to believe this report, the target cost of a Lithium battery pack for a Plugin hybrid is $1500.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9780680-7.html?tag=nefd.blgs

I also read on the enerdel site that these batteries are good down to -30C with only a 5% loss in capacity. That makes them great for climates that have some cold winter temperatures.

http://enerdel.com/content/view/104/87/#temperature

Let's hope this product is available sooner before later and for a price point that will make it viable for the DIY market.

Cheers

Brian


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## KiwiEV (Jul 26, 2007)

Oh God yes. Give me those babies!


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

> "Our batteries have already been tested by the United States Advanced Battery Consortium, which is General Motors, Ford and Chrysler,"


If GM and Ford have anything to do with it, they won't end up available to the DIY EV'ers like us.

Also their website does not impress me, it was made with "Mambo" a CMS that I used to work with.

Check out this poorly made site using Mambo and compare it to their site:
http://okmls.com/mambo/

Look familiar?

Here's the demo on Mambo's website:
http://www.mamboserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=116

It usually doesn't work but you can see the preview image.


Then again LionEV's website sucks too, but they're selling product. 

On a more positive note, more competition means lower prices for us, that's always a good thing. 


I'm still waiting for my Altairnano battery pack:
http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html


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## BrianWillan (Feb 22, 2008)

Mastiff said:


> If GM and Ford have anything to do with it, they won't end up available to the DIY EV'ers like us.
> 
> Also their website does not impress me, it was made with "Mambo" a CMS that I used to work with.
> 
> ...


What difference does it make how their website is configured? As long as it displays the information correctly, is all that really matters in the end. Seems like you have and axe to grind with that product.

As for your altairnano batteries, their product pdf shows a battery with a spec of 13.8V / 1.2Kwh / 88Ah. If you ready their FAQ, the pricing is stated as $2 US per watt hour. Doing the math on that means the aforementioned battery would cost $2400 USD. Even at the projected reduced cost of $1 per watt hour, that is still $1200 USD. So even for a modest array the cost quickly multiplies to multiple 10s of thousands. 

The FAQ states that they are going after the large corporate market first before even considering selling to consumers. So I won't be holding my breath for this company to be providing product for the consumer for many years to come.

Cheers

Brian


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## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

I meant no harm by my comments.

Mostly I was just stating how all these new Lithium battery companies websites seem to be built by inexperienced web developers.

Look at:
http://www.lionev.com/
for example.

Now, I would easily buy batteries from LionEV because I've seen real people use them and they're building Ford Ranger EVs with them.

But their website still needs work.


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## the slashmaster (Feb 24, 2008)

BrianWillan said:


> Greetings All
> 
> If we are to believe what the following link has to say, we will be seeing affordable Lithium battery packs suitable for EV use by the end of 2008.
> 
> ...


Interesting how it says you need 7-10 years in order for nickel metal hydride batteries to pay for themselves. I can't even get the ones for my roomba to last 2 years. It could run an amazingly long time on a charge when I got it, now it won't run 5 seconds. Anyone know why?


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

(I wouldn't yet buy from lionev, I don't believe they are honest in all matters so I would wait for first verified delivery of one of their products at the very least)

as for the Enerdel, where does it say price?


as for affordable good lithium I may have found a source:
http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/p...s/Lithium_Iron_Phosphate_LiFePO4_battery.html

I was quoted:
and Our Price (Factory Price) is USD135/pcs on 3.2V,100A; 
and Our Price (Factory Price) is USD2090/pack (without BMS) on 48V,100A;

100A must mean 100Ah. that's 0.42$/Wh which is a very good price if the product is good. I may buy a single cell to have it tested. we don't know their quality but I expect it to be ok. 
spec sheet http://www.zev.dk/misc/Seiden3.2V100AH.pdf
it says 2C but from the low voltage drop I'd guess it can do much more.


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Very interesting Dan. 

Also, the links at the top of the post don't work anymore. I guess those sites were a bit fly-by-night after all.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> as for affordable good lithium I may have found a source:
> http://sinoriching.en.alibaba.com/p...s/Lithium_Iron_Phosphate_LiFePO4_battery.html
> 
> I was quoted:
> ...


 I'd like optimism, but skepticism is ringing my bell.

That is one huge lithium cell, and the price is too good to believe. I'm interested in this cell if this is in fact the real deal. 

So, for example, a 48v, 100ah pack would be about 7" x 11" x 30", and it would weigh about 110 lbs. For $2100? A similar volume of Optima yellow top AGMs would be twice the weight and half the capacity, (and yes, a third of the cost) according to my rough calculations.

Is there any way to find out if this is a legit claim, and not just a scam?

-Mark

PS. I've put in a query to the company, and I'll tell this forum what I find out.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

: )
I feel confident it's for real with the caveat that the dollar is currently in free fall, but other than a dollar adjusted price I think it's for real. I agree it's a halfway decent price but it can still be much much cheaper. lithium may cost a little but it's only a tiny fraction of the weight. the rest are household chemicals : )
I would not expect it to be a scam. I can't vouch for the quality but I have no reason to believe it's poor. I believe each block is made up of 5 20Ah pouch style cells because they are willing to sell those too: http://www.zev.dk/misc/Seiden3.2V20Ah.jpg
I requested a price today but haven't gotten it yet
I think it's real, I just wish it was available as 40Ah 10C cells but maybe they can do high C in bursts. not sure what those sheet poles can take. I guess we have to test them


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> lithium may cost a little but it's only a tiny fraction of the weight. the rest are household chemicals : )


 You keep those kinds of chemicals around *your* house? Remind me never to visit. 

Seriously, though - I thought it _was_ the lithium that makes any Li battery expensive. I've known of/used lithium batteries on and off for over 20 years, and the one constant is that they're energetic and expensive. (ok, well that's two, actually)

As dangerous as metallic lithium can be, I also assume that Li batteries are something of a bear to manufacture, also adding to the cost. The first lithiums I worked with, back in the '80s, were thionyl-chloride and sulfer dioxide. (Neither are rechargable) We all know sulfer dioxide is bad news. Thionyl chloride (sp?) also burns in moist air, like lithium, sodium and a few others.

So what _is_ it that makes the current Li batteries so costly? And how did you get so smart about all this? Really - do you work with this stuff, or have you simply done a lot more research?

Thanks.

-Mark


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

hehe the trick is to appear confident : )
but seriously, I don't know what specific chemicals the various chemistries use and some of them are probably quite reactive, that just means you put them together in a vacuum or inert atmosphere. I've seen a few glimpses into fabrication and it's nothing fancy. the chemicals have to be clean, handled with care but when it boils down to it probably much simpler than making match box cars or shoes for instance. my serious guess at the relatively high prices is simply 'because we can'. it's common human greed to set a price because it's a good product, not because it costs a lot to make. that's why 2 sheets of glass with some phospor in between originally cost 20000$. aka plasma screen. now they cost 1000$ and are much better. greed over progress.
I'm afraid it's also the reason why we aren't getting oled displays. they are too easy to make so the bastards conclude there is not enough money in it


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought much of the cost of Lithiums was because they had to be mostly hand assembled as they can't be made on standard battery assembly lines.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Any battery can be made on an assembly line, especially LiPo.

The cheap LiFePo4 batteries posted are direct from mainland china, and may be those of thundersky. The price is also accurate, I checked three different sources so far, and it is indeed that cheap.

Thundersky has a poor rep in the western world though, and the jury is still out on weather their product can in fact deliver the claimed 3000 70% DOD cycles. For now, LionEv seems to be competitive in pricing when you consider that they seem to be more trustworthy, and even offer a lifetime warranty depending on what you get.

I know that early TS batteries were not good for delivering high current, and some conversions had to be swapped back to lead because it was so bad. Reliability was also a problem. But to their credit, they were the first to offer lithium batteries that were cheap enough that it was finally a contender for conversions.

The latest version of their battery is 3rd generation, I think. So far there is very little info on how these latest ones work, but what little I have been able to find says they do work well. If you go to thundersky's website, you can see the price list, the discounts are based on order volume, and they are significant. I know of at least one group purchase that was planned, but have no idea how it all turned out.

Here is the factory price list: http://www.thunder-sky.com/order_en.asp

hardware extra (naturally)


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

david, I don't believe they are thunderskys. and they are considerably cheaper than thundersky


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

you can google video on making Li-ion batteries . A couple on welding the 123 cells,one on making flat li-po they extrude the li then roll it etc.heard that Li can be handled in a 2% humidity room. From looking at patents it looks like a small shop could make them on the order of a machine shop / lab but different equipment, vacuum deposit chamber for the new Stanferd silicon anodes, etc. not back yard but with team work doable. Sacremento has a library on alternate energy I found a magazine on battery business where I Reid of the unrealized potental of si anodes then a year later the Stanferd announcement. Thats 10 times the energy of todays li-ions


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> Sacremento has a library on alternate energy I found a magazine on battery business where I Reid of the unrealized potental of si anodes then a year later the Stanferd announcement. Thats 10 times the energy of todays li-ions



Not exactly.


> The downside is that the nanowire growth process that Cui uses, which feeds gaseous silicon to a liquid gold catalyst to make the solid electrode, is a high-temperature (600 to 900 °C) process that could be costly to scale up. Cui believes that scale-up of the vapor-liquid-solid process is nevertheless feasible, but he acknowledges that he is also "exploring another approach."
> Ohio State University chemist Yiying Wu, who also works on nanowire electrodes, calls the Stanford work "definitely very important." But Wu and other materials scientists caution that additional advances will be required before lithium batteries with nanowire electrodes deliver major increases in performance of electric-vehicle batteries. Not least is the need to scale up the process of making nanowires, which have yet to be mass-produced for commercial application.
> * Another limitation is that while Cui's silicon nanowires make great anodes, lithium-battery technology has greater need for improved cathodes. In a given battery, substituting an anode that stores more lithium ions has no impact without a corresponding cathode that can supply more charge.*


http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/20000/?nlid=785


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

very interesting, is the hi temp in the vaporizing bath or on the sub strait. how about sodium instead of the li. Sodium is 2x the potential of li. potassium is higher yet .these metals are so common and higher power.I was looking into sodium and it became apparent that table salt is sodium , ya little slow sometimes but I'm trying . it was first reduced in 1807 , must be very high tech stuff.its stored in kerosene


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