# Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

What batteries are you currently using?
What is their history?

A bad battery can read a reasonable voltage with no load on it, then quickly 
drop under load. The internal resistance is too high.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John NLN" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 8:02 PM
Subject: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...


>
>
> The whining and complaining portion of this message:
>
> OK, I got my new LogiSystems controller installed, new DC-DC converter, 
> main
> contactor, and fuse. I pulled out the probable bad battery (went from 144
> to 132 volts) and took a couple short test drives - it actually went a few
> blocks and did not break down!!! I knew this could not last.
> I went back to the house and sure enough, the entire back end lights went
> dark - tail lights, break lights, backup lights. The front of the car was
> fine. I got a friend and spent a weekend putting in new wires to the 
> back.
> We just cut the old wires and ran a tube from front to back with new. I
> also ripped apart the instrument panel and put in new wires for that. 
> There
> is apparently no part of the Honda wiring that a previous owner had not
> screwed up. Finally a solid, working lighting system.
> I again took a couple of short test drives - it again, actually went a few
> blocks and did not break down!!! I again, knew this could not last.
> Sure enough, on the third test drive, about a block from my house the car
> yet again went dead. I checked another suspected bad battery and it was 
> at
> about 10.5 volts, after having been at 12.6 before starting out. I pulled
> this battery out and am now at 120 volts. The car again ran fine and I 
> was
> able to get home. I checked this battery again and it was at 12.5 volts.
> This wild oscillation of voltage makes no sense to me.
>
> The question part of this message:
>
> I am thinking of dumping the entire string of batteries and getting new
> ones. Has anyone tried these batteries:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_odyssey.php
> My other options are trying to sell the car, at one hell of a loss, or 
> give
> it to charity for the tax deduction (I would remove the new controller,
> DC-DC converter, main contactor, fuse, and anything else that might have
> some value).
>
> Any opinions or advice?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/The-nightmare-continues...-tp23006675p23006675.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

OK, thanks. So I guess what you are saying is that I read them at a little
over 10 volts right after stopping, but wait a half hour and they can come
back to 12 plus volts.



What batteries are you currently using?
What is their history?

A bad battery can read a reasonable voltage with no load on it, then quickly 
drop under load. The internal resistance is too high.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Bill -

Thanks for the info.

The batteries were almost fully charged (to the best they can do):

01 12.97
02 12.98
03 12.97
04 12.95
05 12.84 - the one I pulled today
06 I pulled a while ago and not operational today
07 13.13
08 13.06
09 13.00
10 13.06
11 13.08
12 12.98

The batteries I got when I bought the car originally (108 volts):
01, 02, 03, 04, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11

The batteries I later bought (old, but not used):
05, 06, 12

John

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Hi John, 

Don't give up on this car just yet, you seem to be almost there.
Take care of the bad batteries and you will have a running EV.

In order to decide if you need a new pack or just a few new batteries
you need to do a load test on each battery and write down its
capacity.
If only 2 or 3 are bad and do not recover after a few cycles then
you should replace those.
If every battery of your pack is severely under its original
capacity and it does not recover when you charge and discharge
the pack a few times then the whole pack needs to be replaced.

Odyssey have some positive and negative sides, best to read up
in the archives, they have been discussed quite a bit.
Depending on the max current you draw you may need good AGMs
to allow your car to respond as you like.

Success, 

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of John NLN
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...



The whining and complaining portion of this message:

OK, I got my new LogiSystems controller installed, new DC-DC converter,
main
contactor, and fuse. I pulled out the probable bad battery (went from
144
to 132 volts) and took a couple short test drives - it actually went a
few
blocks and did not break down!!! I knew this could not last. 
I went back to the house and sure enough, the entire back end lights
went
dark - tail lights, break lights, backup lights. The front of the car
was
fine. I got a friend and spent a weekend putting in new wires to the
back. 
We just cut the old wires and ran a tube from front to back with new. I
also ripped apart the instrument panel and put in new wires for that.
There
is apparently no part of the Honda wiring that a previous owner had not
screwed up. Finally a solid, working lighting system.
I again took a couple of short test drives - it again, actually went a
few
blocks and did not break down!!! I again, knew this could not last.
Sure enough, on the third test drive, about a block from my house the
car
yet again went dead. I checked another suspected bad battery and it was
at
about 10.5 volts, after having been at 12.6 before starting out. I
pulled
this battery out and am now at 120 volts. The car again ran fine and I
was
able to get home. I checked this battery again and it was at 12.5
volts. 
This wild oscillation of voltage makes no sense to me.

The question part of this message:

I am thinking of dumping the entire string of batteries and getting new
ones. Has anyone tried these batteries: 
http://www.evsource.com/tls_odyssey.php
My other options are trying to sell the car, at one hell of a loss, or
give
it to charity for the tax deduction (I would remove the new controller,
DC-DC converter, main contactor, fuse, and anything else that might have
some value). 

Any opinions or advice?

John




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l
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Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Yes this is true. Only go for the Odysseys if you are strictly into performance. And in that case if you want the 1500 amp
discharge rates, buddy pair up two each of the PC680's (Enersys model XE16) The two of these in parallel will put out 1500 amps
total for longer than 5 seconds and only weigh 28 lbs together compared to the 49 lbs of the PC1500. Mind you they won't have near
as much capacity, but strictly performance wise, they are better.

However if you are somewhat into performance but also want to daily drive and get good capacity, you could go for Deka 9A31 with
190 minutes reserve capacity for $199 or less if you look around (compared to the Odyssey's 135 minutes at $288). The Deka's will
put out the full 1000 amps a Zilla 1K can take for at least 12 seconds (I know). You should know that the AGM's will typically have
slightly less life cycle than Gels and quite a few less cycles than floodys.

But just wanted to give you my take on the Odyssey PC1500. Quality will certainly be high, but for very slightly less quality you
could save almost $100 per battery and get more capacity.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:38 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> Don't give up on this car just yet, you seem to be almost there.
> Take care of the bad batteries and you will have a running EV.
> 
> In order to decide if you need a new pack or just a few new batteries
> you need to do a load test on each battery and write down its
> capacity.
> If only 2 or 3 are bad and do not recover after a few cycles then
> you should replace those.
> If every battery of your pack is severely under its original
> capacity and it does not recover when you charge and discharge
> the pack a few times then the whole pack needs to be replaced.
> 
> Odyssey have some positive and negative sides, best to read up
> in the archives, they have been discussed quite a bit.
> Depending on the max current you draw you may need good AGMs
> to allow your car to respond as you like.
> 
> Success,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
> 
> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of John NLN
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...
> 
> 
> 
> The whining and complaining portion of this message:
> 
> OK, I got my new LogiSystems controller installed, new DC-DC converter,
> main
> contactor, and fuse. I pulled out the probable bad battery (went from
> 144
> to 132 volts) and took a couple short test drives - it actually went a
> few
> blocks and did not break down!!! I knew this could not last.
> I went back to the house and sure enough, the entire back end lights
> went
> dark - tail lights, break lights, backup lights. The front of the car
> was
> fine. I got a friend and spent a weekend putting in new wires to the
> back.
> We just cut the old wires and ran a tube from front to back with new. I
> also ripped apart the instrument panel and put in new wires for that.
> There
> is apparently no part of the Honda wiring that a previous owner had not
> screwed up. Finally a solid, working lighting system.
> I again took a couple of short test drives - it again, actually went a
> few
> blocks and did not break down!!! I again, knew this could not last.
> Sure enough, on the third test drive, about a block from my house the
> car
> yet again went dead. I checked another suspected bad battery and it was
> at
> about 10.5 volts, after having been at 12.6 before starting out. I
> pulled
> this battery out and am now at 120 volts. The car again ran fine and I
> was
> able to get home. I checked this battery again and it was at 12.5
> volts.
> This wild oscillation of voltage makes no sense to me.
> 
> The question part of this message:
> 
> I am thinking of dumping the entire string of batteries and getting new
> ones. Has anyone tried these batteries:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_odyssey.php
> My other options are trying to sell the car, at one hell of a loss, or
> give
> it to charity for the tax deduction (I would remove the new controller,
> DC-DC converter, main contactor, fuse, and anything else that might have
> some value).
> 
> Any opinions or advice?
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/The-nightmare-continues...-tp23006675p23006675.htm
> l
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

You could also look at the Sears Platinum series, they are supposed to be
Sears branded Odysseys, but they are cheaper and you can pick them up at a
local Sears without shipping charges:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02850134000P?vName=Automotive&cName=Batteries+%26+Chargers&sName=Marine+Batteries
SearsPlatinum 
John




> Mike Willmon wrote:
> >
> > Yes this is true. Only go for the Odysseys if you are strictly into
> > performance. And in that case if you want the 1500 amp
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Sears appears to have the PC1500 covering several of its categories. I
purchased 2 with different part numbers havings identical specs, a Diehard
P-4, #50090 and a P-1, #50034 with the latest date codes in stock at the
local Sears store for $189.00ea. + tax and core which they did not require.
These units to have the same capacity as the other PC 1500s in my pack
based on voltage measurements taken after several 50% pack drain commutes.
me



> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Yes this is true. Only go for the Odysseys if you are strictly into
> > performance. And in that case if you want the 1500 amp
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

$189, now you're talking, if indeed they are the same specs and not a watered down version, so to speak, built inexpensively for
Sears. However consider that for the same price in a Deka you can get a Group 31 battery instead of a Group 34. I'd would
consider the Sears Hawker/Enersys knock off, but I would dig a little to see if the batteries are actually the same. Do you know
it Sears has a PC680 equivalent?? I'm looking for an acceptable alternative for the JR Dragster project right now. I'll be
stopping at Sears on my outing today 

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Eidson
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:53 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...
> 
> Sears appears to have the PC1500 covering several of its categories. I
> purchased 2 with different part numbers havings identical specs, a Diehard
> P-4, #50090 and a P-1, #50034 with the latest date codes in stock at the
> local Sears store for $189.00ea. + tax and core which they did not require.
> These units to have the same capacity as the other PC 1500s in my pack
> based on voltage measurements taken after several 50% pack drain commutes.
> me
> 
>


> Mike Willmon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes this is true. Only go for the Odysseys if you are strictly into
> > > performance. And in that case if you want the 1500 amp
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

A few additional notes:

The current AGM batteries are (12 total):

C&D Technologies cdtechno.com
Power Solutions
Dynast UPS Battery

UPS 12-475 FR
110 in-lbs
12.4 NM
Float charge 13.5-13.8 @ 77 deg F (25 deg C)

12 Volt
134.8 AH (20 hour rate to 1.75 VPC @ 77 deg F)
475 WPC (15 min rate to 1.67 VPC @ 77 deg F)
IFC Rating: 120.3 AH (10 hour rate to 1.8 VPC @ 20 deg C)


9 came with the car and 3 were bought off eBay (in original boxes) Two of
the eBay ones seem to be bad (probably the third will go bad shortly).

The car was bought as a 108 volt system with a 96-144 volt Curtis
controller. The controller went bad (maybe, now I am wondering) and I
bought a 120-144 volt LogiSystems controller. Thus, if the third eBay
batteries goes bad, I will have to get at least one new one as the
LogiSystems will not work at 108 volts.


As for use:
1) I do not care about performance, except acceleration has to be good
enough not to get rear-ended on freeway entry.
2) I would want to drive on the order of 30 miles a day between charges -
12.5 miles one way to work and a few extra miles (mostly freeway).
3) I have two charging solutions:
a. 3000W HF/PFC Battery Charger for 144 volts. Obviously I cannot use
this as after pulling one or two batteries as I no longer have 144 volts.
b. Twelve Soneil individual chargers (conbination of 1206S and 1205SR) 12
volt, 3.0 amp


My dilemma as I do not really know what the real condition of the batteries:
1) I can buy one or two more for the know bad ones, but then the pack is
mismatched maybe as bad as it is now.
2) I can buy a new pack. If were for sure a matter of the $3000 for
batteries I would probably hold my nose, suck it up and pay the money
(muttering every 4 letter word known to man under my breath). The problem
is once I do that I risk the motor going bad. Why shouldn't it - everything
else on this car has broken? This would cost about $2000. Then a new
adapter plate would be required for about $1000. Why shouldn't a new one be
required - it was hand made and is never going to fit any new motor. Then I
would need, I believe, about $1000 for installation - no I am not going to
waste any more of my life working on it. So now we are talking about
another $7000 in addition to what I put into the car - by far the 3'rd worst
purchase I have made in my life (the worst was a Dodge Aries sedan, the
second worst was a Toyota van).
3) Lastly I can just cut my losses.

Don't know at this time.

John


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*



> On 12 Apr 2009 at 15:16, John NLN wrote:
> 
> > So now we are talking about another $7000 in addition to what I put
> > into the car - by far the 3'rd worst purchase I have made in my life
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

David -

Yea, I agree with most everything in your message. Basically the main
mistake I made was not going directly to a professional, established
converter. I should have just picked out a donor car that I liked and paid
to have it converted - at least for my first EV. In any case, that's water
under the bridge. I still have my money/time dilemma, and this is no longer
even remotely fun. I will probably let the thread run its course, consider
all the responses, do serious battery shopping, and then make a final
decision.

Thanks for the observations.
John


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

I second what David said, hang in there. You certainly have the expertise
here on the list (Not me) to keep you going. The conversion I bought has
needed a lot ... a lot ... of work to get it where I am grinning again but
it is paying back now  ... see. It sounds like you are right at the
tipping point and have a good handle on your system. Once you get the pack
sorted out it should steadily move down the list of bad buys as it puts in
some reliable time on the road. And even if it does break down again in the
future, more than likely when the tow truck pulls up you can tell them, "Tow
it home" ... not many people can say that these days. Good luck, todd 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

OK, I got this thing sort of working. I am running 10 12 volt batteries. I
have had it to 25 miles and then recharged. I seem to have one marginal
battery still. When that goes I will get 12 lead acid and use my bulk
charger. The only current problem is the fuses for the turn signal and
break lights blow - both fuses at the same time. It will run for a while
before blowing. I replace with 30 amp and will see what happens.

John


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Is this the 1970's Honda? I can't remember what you had. It is
likely that a wire going to one of the back lights has shorted out on
the frame somewhere, and randomly rubs against the frame, blowing the
fuse. I've had that happen on my old 70's vehicles occasionally.

Z



> John NLN <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > OK, I got this thing sort of working. I am running 10 12 volt batterie=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*



> John NLN wrote:
> >> The only current problem is the fuses for the turn signal and
> >> break lights blow - both fuses at the same time. It will run for a while
> >> before blowing. I replace with 30 amp and will see what happens.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

John,

if both fuses blow always at the same time
then it is likely that it is not a random
rubbed-through wire shorting to frame, but the 
combination of these two signals (turn and brake) 
happening at the same time.
Is there maybe a strange wiring change that
instead of switching +12 to all lamps and locally
connecting the return to the frame, they decided
that one light better be fed +12 as return and 
switched to ground, now if the brake and turn
signal accidentally short together the lamps do
not both turn on but the fuse blows?

Do you have the original wiring schematic?
It could also be a relay connection that a
mechanic connected bass ackwards.

Lee has a good suggestion to use a large wattage
(like headlight) bulb bridging the fuse to allow the 
circuit to operate normally when its bulbs draw less 
current than the headlight can carry (remove heavy 
blinker/brake lights so you just depend on the low
power fender turn light or just one of the brake
lights instead of both, or replace them with a low 
wattage bulb so each circuit draws much less current 
than the headlight - otherwise the headlight will always
glow, no matter whether there is a short or not.
Using the low power lights now you can quickly test
all combinations of brake and blinkers to find when
the short circuit happens, without blowing a bag full
of fuses.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of John NLN
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...



OK, I got this thing sort of working. I am running 10 12 volt
batteries. I
have had it to 25 miles and then recharged. I seem to have one marginal
battery still. When that goes I will get 12 lead acid and use my bulk
charger. The only current problem is the fuses for the turn signal and
break lights blow - both fuses at the same time. It will run for a
while
before blowing. I replace with 30 amp and will see what happens.

John


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

This is a great suggestion! In all my years of trouble shooting, had never
come acroos it. elegantly simple and effective. Kudos!



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > John NLN wrote:
> > >> The only current problem is the fuses for the turn signal and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*



> On 27 Apr 2009 at 9:54, Thos True wrote:
> 
> > This [replacing a fuse with a light bulb for troubleshooting] is a
> > great suggestion! In all my years of trouble shooting, had never come
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

I have a bulb with pigtails that I have used to discharge the diodes in
controllers, it just never occurred to me to use a visual indicator such as
this while trying to trouble shoot an accessory circuit. It could even allow
you to operate the vehicle under normal conditions, as you attempt to
replicate certain conditions. Just opens up some great testing opportunities
that I hadn't resolved until now.
Again, Thanks for the great idea.



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 27 Apr 2009 at 9:54, Thos True wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

>
> I have a bulb with pigtails that I have used to discharge the diodes in
> controllers, it just never occurred to me to use a visual indicator such as
> this while trying to trouble shoot an accessory circuit. It could even allow
> you to operate the vehicle under normal conditions, as you attempt to
> replicate certain conditions. Just opens up some great testing opportunities
> that I hadn't resolved until now.
> Again, Thanks for the great idea.

It is not just that it is a visual indicator, it also turns a short (0
resistance,infinite current) that blows something and stops in a
fraction of a second into a variable resistance, constant current load
that can exist indefinitely while it is "shorting" so you can find the
problem.

My grandfather actually showed me this.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...*

Subject: Re: [EVDL] The nightmare continues...
OK, I got this thing sort of working. I am running 10 12 volt batteries. I
have had it to 25 miles and then recharged. I seem to have one marginal
battery still. When that goes I will get 12 lead acid and use my bulk
charger. The only current problem is the fuses for the turn signal and
break lights blow - both fuses at the same time. It will run for a while
before blowing. I replace with 30 amp and will see what happens.

John

Hi John,

This is a bit of a stab in the dark, (awful pun, not intended) but have you
considered the possibility of a poor earth connection at one or more of the
bulb connections? I've come across this before when, say, you are braking
(and the brake lights come on) and then you switch on the indicator (turn
signal?). The rear lights then all come on in a very effective
impersonation of a disco. It's all due to a poor earth on the light cluster
allowing current to find different paths through different bulbs causing
them to light up - albeit dimly. I'm not sure how this would relate,
technically speaking, to your problem but it might be worth looking at or
having someone with more technical knowledge than me comment on.

Regards, MW

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