# Is a series hybrid a good option?



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

I think the trick is to use as small a generator as possible to power the car. You would not want to use the generator for around town driving, because there is no advantage. Size your battery for the 80% of driving you will normally do, so you minimize the use of fuel. Reserve the generator operation for long trips as a range extender, or when local power is not available to charge at work, or at grandma's house or whatever.

The average family car, NOT SUV, uses about 12 or so HP to drive at a constant 60mph. Maybe get a 15-20 hp generator, and that will allow you to charge the batteries when driving long trips, but use pure electric to get in and out of town.

I have always disliked the Prius, and all the parallel hybrids. They are compromises to the hybrid theory. What they really serve is the consumer market, and if we rely on the consumer to tell us what to do.....well, you see the world we have, right? All hail the F-150 and the Hummer.

I find it strange that the Prius, with all the effort and the risk that Toyota put into it, barely beats my old 1986 Honda Civic 1.3 litre CVCC engine in fuel efficiency!

Jeff


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

I think my plan is also going to be to build some sort of series hybrid I was thinking maybe a 20 hp mower engine or something like that because of how light they are. I would like it to be something that could easily be removed or added to the trunk so I would only have to haul it around when I know I will need it.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Figure out how many kilowatts your vehicle will use and decide if you want a generator large enough to keep the car moving under genset alone when the batteries are low. I'm afraid you'd need a pretty big one to keep up. You won't be pulling a 4KW + genset in and out of your car without help.


----------



## Guest (May 17, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



> You won't be pulling a 4KW + genset in and out of your car without help.


Not a diesel one anyway. But you could build a trailer to pull the genset. Plug the genset into your car when you need longer trips and when you only need short one just unhook the trailer and go battery alone. I'd suggest getting a nice VW 3 Cylinder TDI engine and couple it to a nice generator and run off that when needed directly and charge up the battteries at the same time. When the batteries are charged you'd have it set up to shut down the generator and when the batteries were low enough it would start the gen automatic. A true series hybrid and using a modern auto diesel that complies with current diesel standards. I say use the TDI engine because the utility diesel's are not compliant with pollution standards. You get a better engine with the TDI and it will allow you to have a large enough genset to run your vehicle directly from the genset and charge low batteries. it would be quiet enough and you'd have it on a pull along trailer that you can detach and you can also run Bio and make that your self. Since you'd not use the genset much it will last for just about forever. You could also use it for home use in case of a power outage. It would be large enough to cover most of your needs. Those are all benefits of having a trailed genset on LLR tires. No batteries except for a starter battery will be on that trailer. A nice small TDI and small fuel tank. Auto start and stop and have it hooked to a governor to control speed according to the needs. An auto governor should not be hard to install. You could have aux gauges in the car to monitor the genset while running. It is a good idea and one that is doable. 

Pete : )


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Check this paper out....this is a great idea that has been proven.....

Jeff

http://www.acpropulsion.com/reports/Low_Emiss_Range_Ext.pdf


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Here is video of the one they built.

http://www.acpropulsion.com/videos/backtracker.mov


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> I think the trick is to use as small a generator as possible to power the car.


Actually I think that kind of depends on your objective: range extender or primary powerplant.

The idea of a hybrid is to downsize the gas/diesel engine to a size that matches (or undermatches) the average power consumption of the vehicle. The electric side is used to handle all the peak power issues (starting from a stop or accelerating to pass for example) and use the gas/diesel engine to drive the electric traction motor/charge the battery pack for average power.

Now as the primary power plant that engine needs to be sized so that it can provide all the average power the vehcle needs. But as a range extender is can be underpowered, with the battery back contributing the remaining power to maintain the car's speed. In that instance though di batteries are steadily drained during the drive and continuous operation will eventually drain the batteries.



> You would not want to use the generator for around town driving, because there is no advantage. Size your battery for the 80% of driving you will normally do, so you minimize the use of fuel. Reserve the generator operation for long trips as a range extender, or when local power is not available to charge at work, or at grandma's house or whatever.


I disagree. The primary advantages of the hybrid is a lighter battery pack (and not just 20% lighter), and the ability to use the existing infrastructure to to refuel in out of the way places.

Say you needed an 80 mile daily trip. Can't be done weight effectively with lead acid, or cost effectively with lithium. Say that the vast majority of the trip is highway driving. By coupling a lighter 12V based lead acid pack with the gas/diesel range extended you can extend to that distance. But you'd need use both engines to pull it off.



> The average family car, NOT SUV, uses about 12 or so HP to drive at a constant 60mph. Maybe get a 15-20 hp generator, and that will allow you to charge the batteries when driving long trips, but use pure electric to get in and out of town.


But a 20 HP generator is going to be large and heavy. By using a smaller generator you can get a more effective range.

But it's still not going to be that all around car, because you will drain the batteries on longer trips.

The series hybrid can create that intersection of weight, cost, and range that'll make it effective in 
town, but not on longer trips.



> I have always disliked the Prius, and all the parallel hybrids. They are compromises to the hybrid theory. What they really serve is the consumer market, and if we rely on the consumer to tell us what to do.....well, you see the world we have, right? All hail the F-150 and the Hummer.


The objective of the Prius and other Hybrid Synergy Drive cars is to make a more efficient gas engine system. Even though the car can be driven completely electrically, the effective range of a couple of miles means that without the gas engine, it isn't going anywhere.

Gas is addictive because of the power capacity it contains. So switching to something else means that we'll all have to change the way that we drive because to get that same capacity will take either a ton or a mint in batteries.

The series hybrid I'm interested in is one that has a useful electric range coupled with another system that extends that range. I'll probably start with gas for no other reason that it's the most available and cheapest starter. But eventually looking to other mechanisms for a lightweight, low cost, decent power system to use a range extended will be the goal. If the power output can be increased to a decent average, using liquid nitrogen may fit that bill.



> I find it strange that the Prius, with all the effort and the risk that Toyota put into it, barely beats my old 1986 Honda Civic 1.3 litre CVCC engine in fuel efficiency!
> 
> Jeff


The question is what happened when you hit the gas on the Civic? I remember renting a Ford Escort once with a really tiny engine. That thing literally top 15 seconds to accelerate to highway speeds. That's the difference between the hybrid and a tiny engine, ultra efficient vehicle, the battery system has enough peak power to pulse the hybrid quickly, while the tiny gas engine has sufficient average power to keep the car moving once it gets up to speed.

ga2500ev


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



gottdi said:


> Not a diesel one anyway. But you could build a trailer to pull the genset. Plug the genset into your car when you need longer trips and when you only need short one just unhook the trailer and go battery alone.


While this is certainly doable, the problem is that it fails the convenience factor test IMO. It operates on the presumption that the driver can accurately predict their driving habit at all times. You plan a moderate length driving day that is covered by the batteries and you need to make extra stops or an emergency comes up. You've left your trailer home.

Oops. Now you're stuck.

That's the reason that automakers are making hybrids that always carry the gas/diesel engine and make it so that the car cannot function without it.

Any effective hybrid solution is going to have to carry the genset at all times (again in IMO). That means coupling a light powerful engine with a genset that can generate sufficient average power to move the vehicle around.

Now I agree with most of the rest below:



> I'd suggest getting a nice VW 3 Cylinder TDI engine and couple it to a nice generator and run off that when needed directly and charge up the battteries at the same time. When the batteries are charged you'd have it set up to shut down the generator and when the batteries were low enough it would start the gen automatic. A true series hybrid and using a modern auto diesel that complies with current diesel standards. I say use the TDI engine because the utility diesel's are not compliant with pollution standards. You get a better engine with the TDI and it will allow you to have a large enough genset to run your vehicle directly from the genset and charge low batteries. it would be quiet enough and you'd have it on a pull along trailer that you can detach and you can also run Bio and make that your self. Since you'd not use the genset much it will last for just about forever. You could also use it for home use in case of a power outage. It would be large enough to cover most of your needs. Those are all benefits of having a trailed genset on LLR tires. No batteries except for a starter battery will be on that trailer. A nice small TDI and small fuel tank. Auto start and stop and have it hooked to a governor to control speed according to the needs. An auto governor should not be hard to install. You could have aux gauges in the car to monitor the genset while running. It is a good idea and one that is doable.
> 
> Pete : )


Except for serial nature of your setup, you have just described the EV pusher:

http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

Mr. Sharkey argues that you get even more efficiency by putting the power of the diesel onto the pavement instead of bothering with the losses of conversion and reconversion.

But it still have the same convenience issues that I outlines above.

ga2500ev


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



Cybertronic said:


> I am really Stuck with the Idea of a Plugin Series Hybrid Vehicle. I have been thinking whats the best possible scenerio for one? I assume Deisel Generators would have higher efficency and less fuel consumption. But weight of the generator must be considered as well as the weight of the batteries as far as range is concerned. I dont know if anyone knows the best possible ratio yet for Battery to generator but what do you guys think? Lets assume Money is no object in this case and we go with Li-Ion battery packs.


Money is no object makes this a moot exercise. If money is not an issue, then the best solution is to have 2 vehicles: One totally electric that handles the vast majority of your normal range requirements, and one fossil fuel vehicle (or a rental) for trips that the electric vehicle cannot handle. A half ton of lithium batteries can get you well over 100 miles of range and will cost less than $30,000.

LionEV touts a truck that can get 400 mile range. All it takes is money.

ga2500ev


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

The way I see it the balance struck in the hybridization of vehicles is about keeping weight down. Energy efficiency requires a car to be light or to gain a net return by hybridizing at least not grow significantly in weight. The gas engine is heavy to produce the power required for good performance but its energy storage is light so it becomes our range producer/augmenter, the electric motor is light but its energy storage is heavy to produce the range required so it becomes our performance producer/augmenter. We want a car with everything, good performance, good range, and high energy efficiency. It is easy enough to produce a car with two out of the three but with all three is the trick. In order to keep the car light the ICE is small and light and the batteries are small and light. 
 The serial hybrid is the most flexible in that different energy sources can more easily be substituted while retaining the rest of the vehicles systems. It is also less technically challenging due to its lower integration of its various systems. It can however be less energy efficient and heavier than a parallel hybrid due to the imposition of a larger number of energy conversions in some driving modes and the requirement for the electrical drive to provide the full performance required. This means the electrical system must be more powerful and hence heavier or performance reduced. In a parallel hybrid mechanical energy from the ICE can be used via the transmission without conversion of form (though with changes in the torque/RPM balance) whereas the serial hybrid requires this mechanical energy be converted to electrical energy and then converted again to mechanical energy. The efficiency of transferring energy mechanically is very high and very unlikely to be reached or equalled by the serial energy conversions. The importance of this all depends on where the majority of the energy is coming from and assumes an ICE centric hybrid. The EV centric plug in hybrid that only uses its ICE occasionally can live with reduced efficiency (over a parallel hybrid) while in it’s rarely used hybrid mode. If motors, generators, and control electronics could be built with efficiencies in the high 90’s the serial hybrids energy conversion efficiency could start to rival the parallel hybrid anyway. The flexibility of the serial hybrid is important in that it allows the balance between the ICE and the batteries to evolve much more easily as technology, resource availability, and driving habits change.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> The idea of a hybrid is to downsize the gas/diesel engine to a size that matches (or undermatches) the average power consumption of the vehicle. The electric side is used to handle all the peak power issues (starting from a stop or accelerating to pass for example) and use the gas/diesel engine to drive the electric traction motor/charge the battery pack for average power.


THIS IS THE IDEA OF A PARALLEL HYBRID, NOT A SERIES HYBRID. THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT A SERIES HYBRID.



ga2500ev said:


> I disagree. The primary advantages of the hybrid is a lighter battery pack (and not just 20% lighter), and the ability to use the existing infrastructure to to refuel in out of the way places.


THE PRIMARY ADVANTAGE OF A SERIES HYBRID IS NOT TO HAVE A SMALLER BATTERY PACK. IT IS TO BE ABLE TO EXTEND THE RANGE DRIVEN FROM THE BATTERY PACK BY USING A GENERATOR AS A RANGE EXTENDER. IT CAN HAVE THE ADDED CONVENIENCE OF USING COMMONLY AVAILABLE FUEL, OR IT CAN USE ANY OTHER FUEL SOURCE ON EARTH.



ga2500ev said:


> Say you needed an 80 mile daily trip. Can't be done weight effectively with lead acid, or cost effectively with lithium.


WELL, WHAT IS COST EFFECTIVE? MY BET IS THAT A LITHIUM BATTERY WILL LAST THE LIFE OF THE CAR. YOU WILL WEAR THE REST OF THE CAR OUT MUCH BEFORE YOU WOULD A HIGH CAPACITY LITHIUM PACK. 200,000 MILES ON YOUR PRIUS? WHAT KIND OF CONDITION IS THE ENGINE IN AT THAT POINT? BUT IF THE ENGINE ONLY RAN THE (AT MOST) 20% OF THE TIME YOU NEEDED IT, WOULD IT LAST FOR MUCH LONGER?



ga2500ev said:


> But it's still not going to be that all around car, because you will drain the batteries on longer trips.
> 
> The series hybrid can create that intersection of weight, cost, and range that'll make it effective in
> town, but not on longer trips.


HUH? WHAT IS AN ALL AROUND CAR? ANYONE HERE ENJOY DRIVING 1000 MILES A DAY? HOW OFTEN? TWO TANKS OF GAS IS ABOUT HOW LONG I WANT TO BE IN A CAR, THEN I AM DONE!

IF WE CAN SIZE THE GENERATOR, OR PUSHER TRAILER TO GIVE US ABOUT 600 OR 800 MILES BEFORE WE DEPLETE THE BATTERY, 99.99999% OF ALL OUR PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED, AREN'T THEY? AND WE USED MAYBE 6 OR 8 GALLONS OF GAS AT MOST, AND CAN RECHARGE OUR BATTERY BY PLUGGING IN OVERNIGHT. AND GET UP THE NEXT DAY AND DO THE SAME. HOW MUCH GAS HAS YOUR PRIUS USED AT THIS POINT?




ga2500ev said:


> The objective of the Prius and other Hybrid Synergy Drive cars is to make a more efficient gas engine system. Even though the car can be driven completely electrically, the effective range of a couple of miles means that without the gas engine, it isn't going anywhere.


EXACTLY. THIS IS THE COMPROMISE OF A PARALLEL HYBRID. AGAIN, THE QUESTION WAS ABOUT A SERIES HYBRID. IN MY OPINION, A SERIES CONFIGURATION IS LESS COMPROMISED.



ga2500ev said:


> Gas is addictive because of the power capacity it contains. So switching to something else means that we'll all have to change the way that we drive because to get that same capacity will take either a ton or a mint in batteries.


THIS ABOVE STATEMENT IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF DISINFORMATION THAT KILLS CONSUMER CONFIDENCE IN EV'S. IT IS A SIMPLE LIE THAT WE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY WE DRIVE IF WE SWITCH FROM GAS TO ELECTRIC. THE ISSUE IS WE ARE COMPARING THE APPLES OF A TANK OF GAS TO THE ORANGES IN A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY PACK. EVEN LEAD ACID CAN PROVIDE 80% OF OUR TRANSPORTATION NEEDS. JUST THINK WHAT LITHIUM COULD DO!



ga2500ev said:


> The question is what happened when you hit the gas on the Civic? I remember renting a Ford Escort once with a really tiny engine. That thing literally top 15 seconds to accelerate to highway speeds. That's the difference between the hybrid and a tiny engine, ultra efficient vehicle, the battery system has enough peak power to pulse the hybrid quickly, while the tiny gas engine has sufficient average power to keep the car moving once it gets up to speed.


WELL, I WON'T EVEN TRY TO CLAIM THAT THERE IS NOT A MARKED PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PRIUS AND MY OLD 86 CIVIC. BUT WHY WOULD WE COMPARE THE $27,000 PRIUS TO THE $1,300 HONDA? 

SIMPLE FACT IS TOYOTA CAN DO BETTER. SO COULD HONDA. AND, WELL, GM DID BETTER. THEN THEY TOOK IT AWAY.

BUT IF YOU WANT A SERIES HYBRID, THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GET IT IS TO BUILD IT YOURSELF, OR GET AC PROPULSION TO BUILD ONE FOR YOU OUT OF A SCION WITH A RANGE EXTENDING TRAILER.

JEFF


----------



## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> LionEV touts a truck that can get 400 mile range. All it takes is money.


Well gee, if LionEV says so, it must be true. Those small fry EV companies always tell the truth


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Well how small of a gen do you think you would need for say an average car weighing 2500 pounds, I was thinking of using something like a one or 2 cylinder motor form a mower or a small motor bike, my goal would be to keep it as light and small as possible, I'm not sure how much an adequate sized generator would weigh, but I'm sure a little gas engine with an aluminum block wouldn't be much more than 50 pounds.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Dude, no need to yell. I can hear you.



jwalin said:


> THIS IS THE IDEA OF A PARALLEL HYBRID, NOT A SERIES HYBRID. THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT A SERIES HYBRID.


It doesn't matter if it's a parallel or series hybrid, the concept is the same, the electric side provide peak power while the gas/diesel side provides average power.



> THE PRIMARY ADVANTAGE OF A SERIES HYBRID IS NOT TO HAVE A SMALLER BATTERY PACK. IT IS TO BE ABLE TO EXTEND THE RANGE DRIVEN FROM THE BATTERY PACK BY USING A GENERATOR AS A RANGE EXTENDER. IT CAN HAVE THE ADDED CONVENIENCE OF USING COMMONLY AVAILABLE FUEL, OR IT CAN USE ANY OTHER FUEL SOURCE ON EARTH.


But because it can do exactly that, it can carry a smaller battery pack, reducing both weight and cost.

The question, as I outlined, is whether or not the gas/diesel engine provides enough average power that it can power the vehicle by itself.


> WELL, WHAT IS COST EFFECTIVE? MY BET IS THAT A LITHIUM BATTERY WILL LAST THE LIFE OF THE CAR.


How much does that cost to get that lifetime of use?


> YOU WILL WEAR THE REST OF THE CAR OUT MUCH BEFORE YOU WOULD A HIGH CAPACITY LITHIUM PACK. 200,000 MILES ON YOUR PRIUS? WHAT KIND OF CONDITION IS THE ENGINE IN AT THAT POINT?


Electric engine? Just change the brushes and it'll last virtually forever.



> BUT IF THE ENGINE ONLY RAN THE (AT MOST) 20% OF THE TIME YOU NEEDED IT, WOULD IT LAST FOR MUCH LONGER?


See above.



> HUH? WHAT IS AN ALL AROUND CAR? ANYONE HERE ENJOY DRIVING 1000 MILES A DAY? HOW OFTEN? TWO TANKS OF GAS IS ABOUT HOW LONG I WANT TO BE IN A CAR, THEN I AM DONE!


That's you. The average driver is used to having a car that goes an unlimited distance with only having to stop for a quick fillup. If you have a vehicle that has to stop and recharge, then you no longer have that capacity.

The question is what distance constitutes far enough for the average driver?



> IF WE CAN SIZE THE GENERATOR, OR PUSHER TRAILER TO GIVE US ABOUT 600 OR 800 MILES BEFORE WE DEPLETE THE BATTERY, 99.99999% OF ALL OUR PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED, AREN'T THEY?


Yes. However, what size engine/genset do you need to pull that off? And how much do you have to run the gas engine to pull that off?

These are open questions that have not been answered yet. But if you're talking about 600-800 miles before a recharge, then you're essentally talking about the same type hybrid that we have on the road now, which is a gas car.



> AND WE USED MAYBE 6 OR 8 GALLONS OF GAS AT MOST, AND CAN RECHARGE OUR BATTERY BY PLUGGING IN OVERNIGHT. AND GET UP THE NEXT DAY AND DO THE SAME. HOW MUCH GAS HAS YOUR PRIUS USED AT THIS POINT?


Well according to some estimates a gallon of gas produces 15 kWh of usable energy. 8 gallons gives you 120 kWh. At 400 Wh/mile (an estimate) You get 300 miles out of those 8 gallons. 

The real question is how much power and how many miles has the battery pack contributed to the cause?

As for the Prius at 50 MPG you've used about the 6 gallons of gas. The difference is that it's electric battery has contributed almost nothing to those 300 miles.



> EXACTLY. THIS IS THE COMPROMISE OF A PARALLEL HYBRID. AGAIN, THE QUESTION WAS ABOUT A SERIES HYBRID. IN MY OPINION, A SERIES CONFIGURATION IS LESS COMPROMISED.


The series configuration isn't any different. The only question is what is the size of the battery pack? The Prius and other hybrids have a tiny pack. You drop in a bigger one, you get more electric range. But at the end of the day if your total daily range is outside the electric range of the car, then your car is still dependent on gas to get where it's going, though it's less gas than before. So it's no better than the current parallel hybrids that big car companies are trying to foist off on people now.



> THIS ABOVE STATEMENT IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF DISINFORMATION THAT KILLS CONSUMER CONFIDENCE IN EV'S. IT IS A SIMPLE LIE THAT WE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY WE DRIVE IF WE SWITCH FROM GAS TO ELECTRIC. THE ISSUE IS WE ARE COMPARING THE APPLES OF A TANK OF GAS TO THE ORANGES IN A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY PACK. EVEN LEAD ACID CAN PROVIDE 80% OF OUR TRANSPORTATION NEEDS. JUST THINK WHAT LITHIUM COULD DO!


The problem isn't the 80%. It's the 20%. With current gas/diesel/hybrids the 20% is no problem: Get low on fuel, go fill up and keep going.

But with electric cars, it's a problem plain and simple. Unless you carry a gas/diesel engine capable of power the car all by itself, either in parallel or series configuration, you always run the risk of running out of battery power and having to stop to recharge. That means that you're either stuck running the gas/diesel engine all the time, or risk the chance that you'll run out of electricity and not have the ability to move the car.

Personally I don't have a problem with it, as with most other EVers. But to the average driver this represents a drastic change in driving planning and habits. 

Think about trying to drive when you only get gas at home and you'll see what I mean.

Gas and diesel works because it's a fast filling infrastructure that's ubiquitous. And making a hybrid config taps into it.

The real question is what should happen when you run out of battery? Is stopping, running the gas/diesel genset for a recharge OK? Or driving with limited speed off the gas/diesel genset?

Personally I'm fine with either.

If neither is acceptable, then your only option is having a gas/diesel genset powerful enough to drive the car by itself. And this virtually defeats the purpose of switching to electric in the first place.



> WELL, I WON'T EVEN TRY TO CLAIM THAT THERE IS NOT A MARKED PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PRIUS AND MY OLD 86 CIVIC. BUT WHY WOULD WE COMPARE THE $27,000 PRIUS TO THE $1,300 HONDA?


Because fundamentally they have the same sized engine.



> SIMPLE FACT IS TOYOTA CAN DO BETTER. SO COULD HONDA. AND, WELL, GM DID BETTER. THEN THEY TOOK IT AWAY.
> 
> BUT IF YOU WANT A SERIES HYBRID, THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GET IT IS TO BUILD IT YOURSELF, OR GET AC PROPULSION TO BUILD ONE FOR YOU OUT OF A SCION WITH A RANGE EXTENDING TRAILER.
> 
> JEFF


Building one yourself isn't really all that difficult. The real problems are weight, efficiency, and pollution.

But I came here to question the real reason for the series hybrid. No matter how little gas/diesel a series hybrid uses, if it's required, then you're still dependent on it.

Why not simply range extend by using a more advanced battery chemistry or a bigger battery pack?

ga2500ev


----------



## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Most of my commuting is 12 miles round-trip, and I like doing it on all-battery power. But twice a month or so, I try to go to Daytona. That's 150 miles round-trip. I don't have the money to buy that battery pack, so I'd love to have a hybrid that could do the job.

I even had a 4WD vehicle to convert; I could've left the original motor up front and pushed the rear with electric. The problem wasn't weight, efficiency, or pollution: it was control. I didn't want a separate control system, and I don't have the expertise to build a control system that will switch between gas and electric (especially not including controlling the clutch).


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



judebert said:


> Most of my commuting is 12 miles round-trip, and I like doing it on all-battery power. But twice a month or so, I try to go to Daytona. That's 150 miles round-trip. I don't have the money to buy that battery pack, so I'd love to have a hybrid that could do the job.


That makes sense. However, what doesn't make sense is hauling around all that hybrid stuff when you only need it 5% of the time.

There are three other solutions to your particular issue:

1) The obvious thing is to buy or rent a ICE vehicle for the drive to Daytona.

2) The second is to generate a series hybrid by attaching a gas/diesel trailer to the EV. It's called an EV pusher. There are several examples. One of the best can be found here:

http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm

3) The AC propulsion route of having an attached gas/diesel generator in a trailer that can provide the additional power.

The bottom line though is that hauling hybrid stuff around most of the time when you plan not to use it most of the time is probably the most inefficient way to pull it off. You'll stress your EV with more weight.




> I even had a 4WD vehicle to convert; I could've left the original motor up front and pushed the rear with electric. The problem wasn't weight, efficiency, or pollution: it was control. I didn't want a separate control system, and I don't have the expertise to build a control system that will switch between gas and electric (especially not including controlling the clutch).



12 miles. That's a perfect scenario for a completely electric EV. Don't screw it up by making it a hybrid.

As for control, the EV pusher concept with an automatic tranny greatly simplifies the process. Pretty much you control the speed with a knob. There's also a start/stop switch for the gas engine.

Remember the objective is to get on the highway and then fire up the gas engine for the long haul.

Think of it more as cruise control. It has additional control systems too.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

ga2500ev


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> It doesn't matter if it's a parallel or series hybrid, the concept is the same, the electric side provide peak power while the gas/diesel side provides average power.


No, it is not. In a series hybrid, a greater advantage is to use the battery to do the 80% of driving that is within the range of an EV, and use the hybrid features to give you range outside of this capability. This is where the 20% 'engine time' I used comes from.

The Parallel hybrid's prime source of motivation is an ICE. It uses a electric motor to supplement for acceleration.

The Series hybrid uses the motor and battery pack for prime motivation, and uses the ICE for range extension. NOT for peak power, because the electric motor will always be better at serving PEAK POWER demands, and the genset will always be better running at maximum efficiency generating max power.



ga2500ev said:


> Electric engine? Just change the brushes and it'll last virtually forever.


No such thing as an Electric ENGINE that I know of.....it is an electric MOTOR, and an Internal Combustion ENGINE.

My question is how long will the Prius Engine last when it runs 80% of the 200k miles, VS the Series Hybrid car that the engine runs only 20% of the time? And, hopefully the Series Hybrid will use an AC motor, which will not have brushes to change.




ga2500ev said:


> That's you. The average driver is used to having a car that goes an unlimited distance with only having to stop for a quick fillup. If you have a vehicle that has to stop and recharge, then you no longer have that capacity.
> 
> The question is what distance constitutes far enough for the average driver?


Well, lets take a poll and see what average is. My bet is people understand and will accept a car that is within reality, and reality is that we do not need UNLIMITED RANGE.




ga2500ev said:


> But I came here to question the real reason for the series hybrid. No matter how little gas/diesel a series hybrid uses, if it's required, then you're still dependent on it.


Now here you have hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the compromise with a Prius, or any similarly designed parallel hybrid. YOU ARE STILL DEPENDENT ON GASOLINE. ALL THE TIME, NOT JUST FOR LONG TRIPS.

But with a properly designed Series hybrid, then you have 80% of your driving that can be gas free, and you can plug it in to charge it every night. Then, when you need the range, you use the gasoline, or LP gas, or whatever.

I hope you see the difference. I don't know how much clearer can try to explain.

Jeff


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> No, it is not. In a series hybrid, a greater advantage is to use the battery to do the 80% of driving that is within the range of an EV, and use the hybrid features to give you range outside of this capability. This is where the 20% 'engine time' I used comes from.


But it comes with a negative weight cost because you have to carry that gas engine around 100% of the time even if you are not using it.


> The Parallel hybrid's prime source of motivation is an ICE. It uses a electric motor to supplement for acceleration.


Nope. At least with the Toyota HSD, both the ICE and the electric motor have the ability to drive the car. It isn't a supplement.



> The Series hybrid uses the motor and battery pack for prime motivation, and uses the ICE for range extension. NOT for peak power, because the electric motor will always be better at serving PEAK POWER demands, and the genset will always be better running at maximum efficiency generating max power.


Again at the cost of having to carry it around 100% of the time, just in case you happen to need it.



> No such thing as an Electric ENGINE that I know of.....it is an electric MOTOR, and an Internal Combustion ENGINE.


Hmmm...

http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/electric.htm



> My question is how long will the Prius Engine last when it runs 80% of the 200k miles, VS the Series Hybrid car that the engine runs only 20% of the time? And, hopefully the Series Hybrid will use an AC motor, which will not have brushes to change.


Since you have to carry it around, it affects your electric *MOTOR* performance. Less room for batteries, therefore less range before you have to use the gas *ENGINE* for propulsion.



> Well, lets take a poll and see what average is. My bet is people understand and will accept a car that is within reality, and reality is that we do not need UNLIMITED RANGE.


Then figure out the range, then put enough batteries in the car to carry you that range. End of problem.

See what you refuse the recognize is that range is all about having to recharge. If electric batteries could be quickly recharged or swapped, then we wouldn't be having a discussion about a hybrid.

Even if we were only talking about daily driving, there would still be no discussion.

So the only reason to talk about a hybrid is the fact that an all electric car runs out of juice before reaching its destination. Which means that the gas engine is a necessary evil to carry.





> Now here you have hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the compromise with a Prius, or any similarly designed parallel hybrid. YOU ARE STILL DEPENDENT ON GASOLINE. ALL THE TIME, NOT JUST FOR LONG TRIPS.






> But with a properly designed Series hybrid, then you have 80% of your driving that can be gas free, and you can plug it in to charge it every night. Then, when you need the range, you use the gasoline, or LP gas, or whatever.
> 
> I hope you see the difference. I don't know how much clearer can try to explain.
> 
> Jeff


But with the series hybrid you propose you're still married to carrying both mechanisms at all times, even when you don't need it. It's equally as bad.

ga2500ev


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> In a series hybrid, a greater advantage is to use the battery to do the 80% of driving that is within the range of an EV, and use the hybrid features to give you range outside of this capability. This is where the 20% 'engine time' I used comes from.
> 
> The Parallel hybrid's prime source of motivation is an ICE. It uses a electric motor to supplement for acceleration.


Riley's XR3 uses a parallel hybrid configuration that could potentially be driven in EV mode 80% of the time. A parallel hybrid doesn't have to be ICE centric like a Prius. Even the Prius configuration, if the ICE was smaller, the batteries larger, the electrical motors stronger, and a battery charger added, could be made much more EV centric. The question I have is would the serial hybrid be capable of improved efficiency while in hybrid mode particularly on long trips i.e. lots of highway type driving? On one hand the ICE would be operating at its most efficient power and rev's gaining some, on the other the transmission of that power to its eventual use at the wheels would be somewhat less efficient loosing some. The usual hybrid gains of idle stop and regenerative braking don't apply so much to highway driving which is the sort of driving you are more likely to be doing when requiring hybrid mode in an EV centric hybrid.


----------



## Mastiff (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



> I think my plan is also going to be to build some sort of series hybrid I was thinking maybe a 20 hp mower engine or something like that because of how light they are.


That's great except most lawn mower engines are 2 Stroke and break very often, plus they're louder than a rock concert, burn more oil than a 4 stroke, pollute 4 times as much, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I'd go with a small 4 stroke engine.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



Mastiff said:


> That's great except most lawn mower engines are 2 Stroke


 Most lawn mower engines that I've ever seen are 4 stroke. They are still inefficient and polluting but they are mostly 4 strokes. I have 4 mowers, push and riding, from the 70's and 80's, and they are all 4 strokes.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> The Parallel hybrid's prime source of motivation is an ICE. It uses a electric motor to supplement for acceleration.
> 
> Jeff


It depends on the design and is more a result of the size of the battery pack and the lack of a plug than the Parallel nature of the hybrid. As people are already doing with the Prius just make the battery pack larger and add a plug for external charging and you can drive in electric mode alone for 10 or more miles, as much as your battery pack will allow.


----------



## joseph3354 (Apr 2, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

check this out: http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/news_articles_PHEV_truck.html

it's a cryin shame that they want to license production instead of producing it themselves.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> But it comes with a negative weight cost because you have to carry that gas engine around 100% of the time even if you are not using it.


HMMMM.....

An EV1 was a loved car by all who leased it, and we all know the story about them being taken out of the market forcefully because customers wanted to keep them. The Lead acid batteries had a 65-85 mile range, and this has been shown to be enough for the 80% of our driving that we have been talking about. The rest of the car is there....all the drive system, the design, everything is done.....let's upgrade it to a Series Hybrid and use the latest technology.....

The Delphi battery pack weighed 1175lbs and carried 16,200 W-hrs of energy at 26x12=312 Volts. (http://thejaffes.org/rory/ev1/ev1.pdf) If we drive conscientiously on this pack, we use 16200/85=191W-h/Mi. That is pretty good.

So, just using averages, if we were on a trip and our car averaged 191 W-h/Mi at 60mph and it is 312 Volts, we have a draw of 191x60=11460 Watts, 11460/312=36.73 Amps.

Using the LiFePO4 batteries (that are unproven as far as I can tell) from LionEV, 312/3.2=97.5, so 98 modules, and that would weigh 98x7.75=759lbs. But keep in mind using the 100Ah cells from lion should give us 31,360 W-Hr, almost double the capacity of the original lead pack of the EV1, and it weighs 416 lbs less!!!!!

So, can we find a genset that will supply the 36.73 amp load for less than 416 lbs? This way we would not deplete our battery at all while using the genset in a steady state 37 amp draw. We need to discuss this in terms of power, so we need a 312Vx36.73A=11,460 watt genset.

Hmmmm, the Honda EB11000 genset is a 10500 watt unit for portable use at work sites, and it weighs a hefty 403 lbs according to the website. Now I will agree than this genset is not plug and play, and needs a redesign for our application, but it just shows that a suitable genset for a Series EV is extremely viable, and not something that would be too hard to put into production. You optimize it for weight and voltage with a three phase generator, and package it to fit the EV environment, and you will have a great genset.

So, now our theoretical H-EV1 has a 190 or so mile range on just pure electric, and a genset that would allow you to drive into never-never land on a very small current draw from the LiFePO4 pack.

And, I know you worry about the LiFePO4 pack, so.....with such a small draw on it, it is predicted that it would last forever. The reason is, that most 'normal' driving of less than 100 miles a day barely breaks half of the range. The Lithium batteries are rated 2000 cycles based on full discharges, and since we would rarely see a full discharge if we plugged it in every night, their life would be expected to last greater than the 2000 cycles.

So, I am not quite sure that this Series Hybrid idea comes with a negative weight penalty. As a matter of fact, I think this kicks even a Prius modified for more electrical range. 

And this technology existed even 10 years ago. The weight of the EV1's NiMH pack was about the same as the LiFePO4 battery, but it's capacity was lower.



ga2500ev said:


> Nope. At least with the Toyota HSD, both the ICE and the electric motor have the ability to drive the car. It isn't a supplement.


The comparison you made of my old Honda and the much faster Prius is all about the electric motor as a supplement. Sure, the Prius can go a few miles on the battery alone. And of course it can use gas to go everywhere. But in the simplest equivalent view, the Prius is a gas car with electric assist to gain better fuel mileage. This makes the electric motor a supplement to the ICE, because the Prius, as delivered to the dealer and the customer from Toyota, makes a horrible EV centric hybrid. It is gas centric, and the motor and batteries only SUPPLEMENT the power of the ICE to gain better fuel mileage in normal driving conditions.




ga2500ev said:


> Hmmm...
> http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/electric.htm


OK, OK, if you want to use the slang 'Engine" for 'Locomotive', you win. But the point behind the semantic argument still stands.



ga2500ev said:


> See what you refuse the recognize is that range is all about having to recharge. If electric batteries could be quickly recharged or swapped, then we wouldn't be having a discussion about a hybrid.


Sorry, I just disagree with your point entirely. Range isn't about having to recharge, Range is about reality, and being realistic in your expectations about what the buying public wants.

I asked 13 of my closest friends if they think they need any more that 8 or 10 hours of driving in a car. EVERYONE said that if they were going to California from Boston, they would fly. I live in Indiana....and a 10 hour drive for me is from Canada to Florida, Texas to anywhere on the lower East coast. If we had a EV centric Series Hybrid car that could do that...well, me and all my friends would be happy with that.



ga2500ev said:


> So the only reason to talk about a hybrid is the fact that an all electric car runs out of juice before reaching its destination.


No, just before it reaches never-never land!

Jeff


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



John said:


> Riley's XR3 uses a parallel hybrid configuration that could potentially be driven in EV mode 80% of the time. A parallel hybrid doesn't have to be ICE centric like a Prius. Even the Prius configuration, if the ICE was smaller, the batteries larger, the electrical motors stronger, and a battery charger added, could be made much more EV centric. The question I have is would the serial hybrid be capable of improved efficiency while in hybrid mode particularly on long trips i.e. lots of highway type driving? On one hand the ICE would be operating at its most efficient power and rev's gaining some, on the other the transmission of that power to its eventual use at the wheels would be somewhat less efficient loosing some. The usual hybrid gains of idle stop and regenerative braking don't apply so much to highway driving which is the sort of driving you are more likely to be doing when requiring hybrid mode in an EV centric hybrid.


Yes, I like the XR3 design, simple and cheap. But I still think it is a compromise. Because using it as an EV, you have the added drag of the tranny freewheeling, and all the weight of the transmission, which would be necessary on any hybrid which would be expected to operate at any time on the ICE alone. 

And I agree there would be a power loss from the conversion of the gas into electricity in a series design. But the purpose of the series hybrid I speak of is to absolutely minimize the use of fuel. So you would not have to use it 80% of the time.

I think what we need to accept is that any use of gasoline is inefficient. How can we minimize our use of gasoline? By designing EV centric hybrids. The series hybrid makes a better EV centric hybrid.

Jeff


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



> And, I know you worry about the LiFePO4 pack, so.....with such a small draw on it, it is predicted that it would last forever. The reason is, that most 'normal' driving of less than 100 miles a day barely breaks half of the range. The Lithium batteries are rated 2000 cycles based on full discharges, and since we would rarely see a full discharge if we plugged it in every night, their life would be expected to last greater than the 2000 cycles.


However that does not address the issue of shelf life, so they probably won't last forever, we really have no idea how long. I believe ThunderSky doesn't make up batteries ahead of time to keep on hand because they worry about degradation over time. If they can't sit on the shelf for a few months that doesn't bode well for their lifespan.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



JRP3 said:


> However that does not address the issue of shelf life, so they probably won't last forever, we really have no idea how long. I believe ThunderSky doesn't make up batteries ahead of time to keep on hand because they worry about degradation over time. If they can't sit on the shelf for a few months that doesn't bode well for their lifespan.


Well, hopefully the EV consumer industry, meaning US, the EV Conversion Industry, will embrace th new lithium chemistry, so that all the bugs are worked out, and we can have reliable lithium batteries.

That was one of the problems with the GM Ovonics NiMH batteries....GM decided to pull the plug before they were prefected in use....and they just quit working on proving the tech for the EV1 program.

But I think that the RAV-4 EV's have proven the NiMH batteries, and with any luck the various lithium chemistries will get proven.

I think that we can find a solution to the shelf life problems

Jeff


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*




jwalin said:


> Yes, I like the XR3 design, simple and cheap. But I still think it is a compromise. Because using it as an EV, you have the added drag of the tranny freewheeling, and all the weight of the transmission, which would be necessary on any hybrid which would be expected to operate at any time on the ICE alone.


The XR3 design could benefit from some electric free wheeling hubs to detach the drive at the hubs while in EV mode. The parallel hybrid has a transmission to lug around, true, but the series hybrid has a generator/alternator. In the parallel hybrid the electric motor performs this function so there isn’t a separate generator/alternator. One offsets the other. If you built a series hybrid out of a classic DC conversion you would still require a transmission in most cases. EV’s that don’t require a tranny will generally be AC and quite powerful. It takes a lot of horse power to generate the torque required across a large rev range for good grade-ability and top end speed. 




jwalin said:


> And I agree there would be a power loss from the conversion of the gas into electricity in a series design. But the purpose of the series hybrid I speak of is to absolutely minimize the use of fuel. So you would not have to use it 80% of the time.





jwalin said:


> I think what we need to accept is that any use of gasoline is inefficient. How can we minimize our use of gasoline? By designing EV centric hybrids. The series hybrid makes a better EV centric hybrid.


I inclined to think that the gains from running an ICE at optimal rev’s and load could be substantial, like moving from 20% average efficiency of the ICE in a regular car to 35% efficiency in a serial hybrid. I agree that petroleum use minimisation and eventual elimination is the goal and secondarily energy use minimisation. The best path to achieve this is the question. Both parallel and serial configurations have pluses and minuses. What is better for one use pattern may not be so good for another use pattern. The adaptability of the serial configuration is a huge plus for it I think.


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

hi all, new to the forum, new to the thread.

I've had this same idea for a series hybrid for while now,
for my purposes, i thought about only a diesel genset so it could be run on
biodiesel or veg oil.

still learning about the concepts used in an EV, but whereas the current parallel hybrids go with the handoff from batt to ICE concept, i was thinking of the either and BOTH concept.

Have a battery pack smaller than normal, but big enough to get you around town for a bit, but also have the genset be large enough to drive the car at a decent speed on it's own. With the hardest driving(fastest speeds and/or steep hills) using a combination of the the gen and the battery for full power. Obviously the power management wouldn't be simple.

So, save some weight in a smaller battery pack, add some immediate sustainable power with a genset.
Now, the diesel gensets aren't light, but while you are using a combustion engine, you can use biofuels.

Hoping to work it out so the weight and cost are viable.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> HMMMM.....
> 
> An EV1 was a loved car by all who leased it, and we all know the story about them being taken out of the market forcefully because customers wanted to keep them. The Lead acid batteries had a 65-85 mile range, and this has been shown to be enough for the 80% of our driving that we have been talking about. The rest of the car is there....all the drive system, the design, everything is done.....let's upgrade it to a Series Hybrid and use the latest technology.....


You keep operating on the premise that such a vehicle would need to be upgraded to a series hybrid. You actually prove there's no real good reason for doing so.



> The Delphi battery pack weighed 1175lbs and carried 16,200 W-hrs of energy at 26x12=312 Volts. (http://thejaffes.org/rory/ev1/ev1.pdf) If we drive conscientiously on this pack, we use 16200/85=191W-h/Mi. That is pretty good.


I agree that's pretty good.



> So, just using averages, if we were on a trip and our car averaged 191 W-h/Mi at 60mph and it is 312 Volts, we have a draw of 191x60=11460 Watts, 11460/312=36.73 Amps.
> 
> Using the LiFePO4 batteries (that are unproven as far as I can tell) from LionEV, 312/3.2=97.5, so 98 modules, and that would weigh 98x7.75=759lbs. But keep in mind using the 100Ah cells from lion should give us 31,360 W-Hr, almost double the capacity of the original lead pack of the EV1, and it weighs 416 lbs less!!!!!


At a cost of nearly $20k. Let's not forget the $20k. OK?



> So, can we find a genset that will supply the 36.73 amp load for less than 416 lbs? This way we would not deplete our battery at all while using the genset in a steady state 37 amp draw. We need to discuss this in terms of power, so we need a 312Vx36.73A=11,460 watt genset.


But why? By your own calculations you ave a vehicle that can go 31360/191 = 164 miles on a charge. 

Why does it need to be a hybrid then?



> Hmmmm, the Honda EB11000 genset is a 10500 watt unit for portable use at work sites, and it weighs a hefty 403 lbs according to the website. Now I will agree than this genset is not plug and play, and needs a redesign for our application, but it just shows that a suitable genset for a Series EV is extremely viable, and not something that would be too hard to put into production. You optimize it for weight and voltage with a three phase generator, and package it to fit the EV environment, and you will have a great genset.


You're still talking about how to do something that I'm asking why you need to do. Care to explain?



> So, now our theoretical H-EV1 has a 190 or so mile range on just pure electric, and a genset that would allow you to drive into never-never land on a very small current draw from the LiFePO4 pack.
> 
> And, I know you worry about the LiFePO4 pack, so.....with such a small draw on it, it is predicted that it would last forever. The reason is, that most 'normal' driving of less than 100 miles a day barely breaks half of the range. The Lithium batteries are rated 2000 cycles based on full discharges, and since we would rarely see a full discharge if we plugged it in every night, their life would be expected to last greater than the 2000 cycles.


You get no argument from me. The whole point is that if you drop in $20k worth of lithium, then there's no need to hybridtize the vehicle.



> So, I am not quite sure that this Series Hybrid idea comes with a negative weight penalty. As a matter of fact, I think this kicks even a Prius modified for more electrical range.


I'd make the same argument for the Prius. Just fill it with lithium and be done with it.



> And this technology existed even 10 years ago. The weight of the EV1's NiMH pack was about the same as the LiFePO4 battery, but it's capacity was lower.
> 
> 
> 
> The comparison you made of my old Honda and the much faster Prius is all about the electric motor as a supplement. Sure, the Prius can go a few miles on the battery alone. And of course it can use gas to go everywhere. But in the simplest equivalent view, the Prius is a gas car with electric assist to gain better fuel mileage. This makes the electric motor a supplement to the ICE, because the Prius, as delivered to the dealer and the customer from Toyota, makes a horrible EV centric hybrid. It is gas centric, and the motor and batteries only SUPPLEMENT the power of the ICE to gain better fuel mileage in normal driving conditions.


I think that's the only fundamental item we agree on. I further the argument that either: A) The hybrid part is unnecessary as you outlined above with the EV1, keeping it all electric or B) That the serial hybrid is exactly the same as the Prius and is a vehicle fundamentally dependent on its ICE.




> Sorry, I just disagree with your point entirely. Range isn't about having to recharge, Range is about reality, and being realistic in your expectations about what the buying public wants.


I really wish this forum could multiquote so I can tell what it is that you are disagreeing with. Let me go find it.


> I asked 13 of my closest friends if they think they need any more that 8 or 10 hours of driving in a car. EVERYONE said that if they were going to California from Boston, they would fly. I live in Indiana....and a 10 hour drive for me is from Canada to Florida, Texas to anywhere on the lower East coast. If we had a EV centric Series Hybrid car that could do that...well, me and all my friends would be happy with that.


You totally missed my point. Let me try again. Imagine if you could refill an electric car in the same approximate fashion that a gas car is filled now: pull into a station, attach the vehicle, some short time later your vehicle is recharged and you're on your way.

Has nothing to do with the number of hours you are in the vehicle. Even in today's vehicles, one would not go 8-10 hours without refueling.

If that electric refillability existed, then we wouldn't be talking about a hybrid, because there would be no need for one, would there?

The only reason that a discussion on a serial, or any other type, of hybrid exists is so that you can quickly refuel.

That's the point that I'm making. 

With 150-190 mile range, virtually all normal driving is handled. It's only all at once, long range driving that is still left out. And as you correctly pointed out, the vast majority of the time folks will fly. The only exception you missed is if you need to bring a whole family somewhere 8 or 10 hours away. I think many would still drive over flying simply due to cost.

So you've outlined the right ticket. Improve the range by upgrading the batteries. Then leave the hybrid off because you won't need it the vast majority of the time.

ga2500ev


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> Using the LiFePO4 batteries (that are unproven as far as I can tell) from LionEV, 312/3.2=97.5, so 98 modules, and that would weigh 98x7.75=759lbs. But keep in mind using the 100Ah cells from lion should give us 31,360 W-Hr, almost double the capacity of the original lead pack of the EV1, and it weighs 416 lbs less!!!!!


For some, LIonEV batteries are lightweight, suitable replacements. For others they're even lighter weight. In fact they're weightless. Why? Because several people have paid LIonEV for batteries and not received them.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> You keep operating on the premise that such a vehicle would need to be upgraded to a series hybrid. You actually prove there's no real good reason for doing so.
> 
> But why? By your own calculations you ave a vehicle that can go 31360/191 = 164 miles on a charge.
> 
> ...


No, I don't keep trying to make it a hybrid. My previous post was just to point out that the addition of a genset does not come at a weight penalty if you use the latest technology. Not even the technology of 10 YEARS AGO.

Remeber, it is YOU who wants the never never land range....



ga2500ev said:


> I think that's the only fundamental item we agree on. I further the argument that either: A) The hybrid part is unnecessary as you outlined above with the EV1, keeping it all electric or B) That the serial hybrid is exactly the same as the Prius and is a vehicle fundamentally dependent on its ICE.
> 
> You totally missed my point. Let me try again. Imagine if you could refill an electric car in the same approximate fashion that a gas car is filled now: pull into a station, attach the vehicle, some short time later your vehicle is recharged and you're on your way.


Well, my understanding is that YOU want this 'unlimited mileage' so you can fill up and be ready to go to never never land at any time. I am just trying to get you to see that an EV centric series hybrid can operate as an efficient EV for those 190 or so miles even while carrying the dead weight of a range extending genset that you don't use very often. The serial hybrid I explained here IS NOT IN ANY WAY dependent on the ICE for 80% of its driving. The same is a hard match for the Prius.

Can you put enough lithium in a Prius to drive 190 miles on battery alone? Without fuel? Can you plug it in? 

Well, you could modify it, with a battery charger, some lithiums, and a modified control system. So, what would that cost you? $20,000, you think?



ga2500ev said:


> If that electric refillability existed, then we wouldn't be talking about a hybrid, because there would be no need for one, would there?
> 
> The only reason that a discussion on a serial, or any other type, of hybrid exists is so that you can quickly refuel.
> 
> That's the point that I'm making.


Well, then your point is made. 

But I don't give a hoot about quick refuelling, because I can see that a Series PLUG IN Hybrid of the above design would serve my needs 100% of the time. And it does need to be charged every night, and charged after our long, long trip to Florida for a Corona in the Sun. So I AM TALKING about a Series Hybrid that I don't need to refuel in 5 minutes.

Here is why I am picking on the Prius:

1. Only 48mpg? My old 86 Honda got 45mpg. Sure it is not as new and fast. But can't we begin to expect more from car companies? Only a 3mpg improvement in how many years? Jeez....

2. No Plug? I can only go how far on Battery alone? So I still have to use fuel? Well, the Toyota Yaris gets 29/35 for $10k less, the Toyota Corolla S gets 27/35 for $6k less. And the Camry 3.5 gets 19/28 for about $3k less. In town driving, 20k mi, $4 a gallon, and you only realize a savings of $2543 over the Camry (at a $3k premium), of $1296 over the Corolla S (at a $6k premium), and of $1091 over the Yaris (at a $10k premium). Clearly, the Yaris is the one to get. 

THE PRIUS IS A GAS CAR. 

The Series Hybrid I outlined is AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE WITH A BUILT IN RANGE EXTENDER. You cannot drive it alone on the ICE without plugging it in to charge the battery, and you won't charge the battery while driving from the genset. IT IS NOT A GAS CAR.



ga2500ev said:


> B) That the serial hybrid is exactly the same as the Prius and is a vehicle fundamentally dependent on its ICE.


W R O N G.

That is my point. I will go as far as to say that I don't really consider the Prius as a hybrid at all. It is just another fuel efficient design. It is not ground breaking at all.....

The EV-1 was groundbreaking. The Toyota RAV-4 EV was groundbreaking. How about a RAV-4 EV with a optional range extending genset on a trailer, and lithium batteries installed? 

I don't want to have to refuel at a gas pump. And if I could buy a EV centric hybrid right now that would serve me as the car I outlined could, then I will buy right now. I am sure that every one built would be sold, and how far ahead of the Prius would it be?

190 miles electric range.
100+ mpg hybrid.
500 miles hybrid range (before recharge).
SAME PRICE (with mass production).

I guess that would bring us out of the ICE age, and into the electric age where we should have been 10 years ago.

The EV-1 served 90% of the typical Americans transportation needs. This car could serve 99.9%.

The Prius can serve 99.9%, but at 48/45mpg.

So you can keep paying big oil....

I heard on the news that BP made $1300 PER SECOND last year.

I will leave this discussion now. It's been fun!

Jeff


----------



## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

There are two big benefits of series hybrids:

1) quick refuelling
2) smaller battery pack costs

Now, parallel hybrids have the smallest battery pack costs of all, but help the least with mileage. (As gas heads towards $5+ a gallon, parallel hybrids will reveal themselves as the temporary stopgap they are. Good for people with no access to an outlet maybe.) Batteries are EXPENSIVE. That's a big reason why Toyota is dragging its heels with plugins. They know that joe sixpack is going to be crunching the numbers on payback of having to pay so much up front for a larger battery pack.

So a series hybrid is intended to give you just enough range to cover your average daily commute. The ICE is a more cost effective (to manufacture) way to extend the range. The longer you stay within BEV range, the greater the savings on gas. If you really LOVE to drive long distances, you can, but with ever greater diminishing savings from the initial span of the trip spent on electric power. It's kind of like training wheels for adapting your lifestyle to drive fewer miles.

A BEV is mechanically simpler, but is the most expensive option because of the larger battery pack. Only those who have gotten beyond "range anxiety" and/or are sufficiently vehement about the environment will buy BEVs.

If batteries get significantly cheaper or charging stations become ubiquitous then the BEV option will be more viable.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Once again, there is NO REASON a parallel hybrid can't have the same sized battery pack and a plug as a serial hybrid and give the SAME EV only range.

I agree that any hybrid is a stopgap along the way to full BEV, and I think a serial setup is a less complicated way to do a hybrid than parallel, but you can add batteries and a plug to a Prius to increase EV only range, as is being done right now.


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



JRP3 said:


> Once again, there is NO REASON a parallel hybrid can't have the same sized battery pack and a plug as a serial hybrid and give the SAME EV only range.
> 
> I agree that any hybrid is a stopgap along the way to full BEV, and I think a serial setup is a less complicated way to do a hybrid than parallel, but you can add batteries and a plug to a Prius to increase EV only range, as is being done right now.


I agree. Ford Escape PHEVs are also popular, and a Camry hybrid PHEV is picking up momentum.

IMHO series hybrids are more elegant, not requiring the monkey-motion back and forth connection of a parallel hybrid and allowing the independent engine to run in the sweet spot of RPMs, but parallel hybrids are doing well for themselves on the market already and have the benefit of directly powering the drivetrain when the batteries are low.


----------



## John (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

In the future we could find ourselves facing a bewildering array of refillable energy sources.

Biodiesel ICE
Ethanol ICE
Coal to liquids ICE
Methanol reformer fuel cell
Methane reformer fuel cell
Hydrogen fuel cell
Exchange battery packs
There are people paying around with other energy carriers that are refillable such as aluminium powder. 
Just to name a few.

Which ever one of these becomes the flavour of the month in what ever part of the world you live in a series hybrid is more easily adapted to use it and if batteries ever become cheap enough and good enough to cover all your driving needs it will easily adapt to them too. I say if because batteries unlike other technical revolutions (LPs to CDs, VHS to DVD, film to digital, etc) EV size batteries contain a significant material content that is heavily exposed to a commodity market trading in a limited resource.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

You seem to be enjoying the repartee.



jwalin said:


> No, I don't keep trying to make it a hybrid. My previous post was just to point out that the addition of a genset does not come at a weight penalty if you use the latest technology. Not even the technology of 10 YEARS AGO.
> 
> Remeber, it is YOU who wants the never never land range....


Nope. Wasn't me. Go back and reread the front two pages. What I said was that the reason we're talking about hybrids is because the average driver expects unlimited range with with minimal time to refuel. I wasn't referring to myself personally.



> Well, my understanding is that YOU want this 'unlimited mileage' so you can fill up and be ready to go to never never land at any time. I am just trying to get you to see that an EV centric series hybrid can operate as an efficient EV for those 190 or so miles even while carrying the dead weight of a range extending genset that you don't use very often. The serial hybrid I explained here IS NOT IN ANY WAY dependent on the ICE for 80% of its driving. The same is a hard match for the Prius.


I quickly followed up that it doesn't make any sense to carry the dead weight for the vast majority of the time that you won't need it. Note that I spent several posts talking about ICE pushers that could be decoupled from the pure EV.

And once again I referred to the average driver with the expectation of unlimited range, not myself personally.




> Can you put enough lithium in a Prius to drive 190 miles on battery alone? Without fuel? Can you plug it in?


Nope. The point is still the same. That if you could do that, then why does it need to be a hybrid?



> Well, you could modify it, with a battery charger, some lithiums, and a modified control system. So, what would that cost you? $20,000, you think?


Probably more. Doesn't the Prius have a 300+ volt pack?


> Well, then your point is made.


Good.


> But I don't give a hoot about quick refuelling, because I can see that a Series PLUG IN Hybrid of the above design would serve my needs 100% of the time. And it does need to be charged every night, and charged after our long, long trip to Florida for a Corona in the Sun. So I AM TALKING about a Series Hybrid that I don't need to refuel in 5 minutes.


Then I'm confused. If you don't care about quick fillups, then what's the purpose of the gas engine? Without it you can drive your 150-190 miles, stop and recharge, then move along later on, or the next day.

Without the need for quick refuels, then you don't need anything but a pure electric.

Or am I missing your point?



> Here is why I am picking on the Prius:


Pick away. I'm arguing against it too.


> 1. Only 48mpg? My old 86 Honda got 45mpg. Sure it is not as new and fast. But can't we begin to expect more from car companies? Only a 3mpg improvement in how many years? Jeez....
> 
> 2. No Plug? I can only go how far on Battery alone? So I still have to use fuel?


Only a couple of miles from what I understand. That's why I keep agreeing with you.



> Well, the Toyota Yaris gets 29/35 for $10k less, the Toyota Corolla S gets 27/35 for $6k less. And the Camry 3.5 gets 19/28 for about $3k less. In town driving, 20k mi, $4 a gallon, and you only realize a savings of $2543 over the Camry (at a $3k premium), of $1296 over the Corolla S (at a $6k premium), and of $1091 over the Yaris (at a $10k premium). Clearly, the Yaris is the one to get.
> 
> THE PRIUS IS A GAS CAR.


BINGO! I'm only extending the argument that any hybrid where you create a dependency on the gas engine for the required range also makes it a gas car too.

I know you disagree. No need to repeat it. What I'm saying is that if the EV range is insufficient, simply add more batteries until the range is sufficient, not making a hybrid.



> The Series Hybrid I outlined is AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE WITH A BUILT IN RANGE EXTENDER. You cannot drive it alone on the ICE without plugging it in to charge the battery, and you won't charge the battery while driving from the genset. IT IS NOT A GAS CAR.


But it is a car that's dependent on the gas part of the hybrid for sufficient range. Because if it's not, then the hybrid part is a waste.





> W R O N G.
> 
> That is my point. I will go as far as to say that I don't really consider the Prius as a hybrid at all. It is just another fuel efficient design. It is not ground breaking at all.....
> 
> The EV-1 was groundbreaking. The Toyota RAV-4 EV was groundbreaking. How about a RAV-4 EV with a optional range extending genset on a trailer, and lithium batteries installed?


Why not just add mor batteries. You could even drag a battery pack on a trailer if you need more range.

My issue is that it makes no sense to make an integral ICE engine hybrid if you're not going to actually use it most of the time. If its an EV, just make it an EV and decouple the range extender.



> I don't want to have to refuel at a gas pump. And if I could buy a EV centric hybrid right now that would serve me as the car I outlined could, then I will buy right now. I am sure that every one built would be sold, and how far ahead of the Prius would it be?
> 
> 190 miles electric range.
> 100+ mpg hybrid.
> ...


But with this car you have to fill it with fuel, which by your measure is something you don't want to do. I'm so confused...



> I guess that would bring us out of the ICE age, and into the electric age where we should have been 10 years ago.
> 
> The EV-1 served 90% of the typical Americans transportation needs. This car could serve 99.9%.


The EV-1 has it's limitations, and not just range. But that's a discussion for another day.



> The Prius can serve 99.9%, but at 48/45mpg.
> 
> So you can keep paying big oil....
> 
> ...



The Prius is a gas car. That we both agree on.

We're still discussing what to replace it with. 

I just don't think the serial hybrid with the integrated ICE engine is the way to do this.

ga2500ev


----------



## Bill Flint (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



Ioku said:


> I think my plan is also going to be to build some sort of series hybrid I was thinking maybe a 20 hp mower engine or something like that because of how light they are. I would like it to be something that could easily be removed or added to the trunk so I would only have to haul it around when I know I will need it.


There are many conversions and looking under the hood of a FWD conversion is a real eye opener. I did just that this past weekend and it gives one a feel for what it takes and room constraints. Two ideas that I am pursuing are: 

1. Puting the electric motor where the rear axle sets and hooking it up to a properly geared rear end for the high way speed you want and using the original motor to get to that speed and then as the alternator at about 750 - 1800 rpms? This may well rule in a 3 phase AC motor, counter bALANCE WHEEL and electric / air clutch. I like this setup better because you don't lose any range. I am looking to measure rpm vs speeds before I decide if the present gear ratio is acceptable. My project car is a 1989 Tempo 2dr sport coupe with manual 5 speed.

2. HOOK UP THE CONSTANT RUN ac motor to your FWD transaxle and gear it for 5 speeds. 20,30, 45, 55 and 65 mph. I already have cut my highway speed back to 55mph max and find it saves money. a 25 hp lawnmower engine and 3 phase altenator would fit in front of the electric motor on my project and leave battery storage under my gen-set. The car I looked at had its batteries under the rear Fast Back hatch. Acid fumes are not my cup of air. I think a vertical shaft engine gen-set may take even less space. Having a Miller Trailblazer 301-G gives me a few more options to try before I buy by simply putting it on my 2 wheel mower trailer and running tests. 10,000 watts should be ample power even with a static converter and 1/3 more with a rotary converter ( slave motor ).

I will keep you all posted but I may add that it may be a 6 to 12 month project with my time constraints. All ideas are apperciated. Bill Flint


----------



## Bill Flint (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> You seem to be enjoying the repartee.


Yep, your right. I should have been a lawyer. I'm sucked in again, I just can't stay away....




ga2500ev said:


> Then I'm confused. If you don't care about quick fillups, then what's the purpose of the gas engine? Without it you can drive your 150-190 miles, stop and recharge, then move along later on, or the next day.
> 
> Without the need for quick refuels, then you don't need anything but a pure electric.
> 
> Or am I missing your point?


Point is, I, and my theoretical customers want to go to Grandma's house 400 miles away every now and then. But we might not want to fly. Here, a Series Hybrid is a great idea. (or some kind of range extending trailer)

I think we agree on this also.



ga2500ev said:


> BINGO! I'm only extending the argument that any hybrid where you create a dependency on the gas engine for the required range also makes it a gas car too.
> 
> I know you disagree. No need to repeat it. What I'm saying is that if the EV range is insufficient, simply add more batteries until the range is sufficient, not making a hybrid.


400 mile range is a hell of alot of batterie$! I don't think I would call it 'dependent' on the gas engine if I only needed it for 20% of the time. Say, maybe twice a year?

I hope we can agree on this, right??



ga2500ev said:


> But it is a car that's dependent on the gas part of the hybrid for sufficient range. Because if it's not, then the hybrid part is a waste.


Not a waste to Grandma. Or my theoretical customers.



ga2500ev said:


> Why not just add mor batteries. You could even drag a battery pack on a trailer if you need more range.
> 
> My issue is that it makes no sense to make an integral ICE engine hybrid if you're not going to actually use it most of the time. If its an EV, just make it an EV and decouple the range extender.


Well, this thread is about the best way to make a Series Hybrid, right? Not a BEV with a range extender.

The one thing people don't like about BEV's is the limitation of not being able to go to Grandma's house. The Series Hybrid is better at answering that gap because the ICE can be engineered to run more efficiently than in a parallel hybrid. Throttling is where you lose efficiency.



ga2500ev said:


> The Prius is a gas car. That we both agree on.
> 
> We're still discussing what to replace it with.
> 
> ...


Well, what is better than the Serial Hybrid for a theoretical customer who wants to have a car they can do just about anything in? 

So far, I think we have discussed four choices in this thread.

1. Prius about 50mpg to Grandma's, limited EV range.
2. Yaris about 35 mpg but $10k less
3. EV-1 type EV range only about 150, 3 days till Grandma's house.
4. Series Hybrid 100 mpg on the trip to Grandma's, and say a 150-190 range on pure electric. NO HASSLES.

I didn't include the trailer option because I don't think joe sixpack wants it. 

what is the choice the buyer would make?

If money is a concern, obviously the Yaris. Otherwise I think the winner is number 4.

So, do we agree?

Jeff

p.s. no matter how many batteries you throw at a Prius, Grandma will still have to give you gas money.


----------



## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



JRP3 said:


> Once again, there is NO REASON a parallel hybrid can't have the same sized battery pack and a plug as a serial hybrid and give the SAME EV only range.
> 
> I agree that any hybrid is a stopgap along the way to full BEV, and I think a serial setup is a less complicated way to do a hybrid than parallel, but you can add batteries and a plug to a Prius to increase EV only range, as is being done right now.


The problem is that parallel hybrids have undersized electric motors, so some degree of redesign is necessary to make them into plugins that can operate at high speed on battery power. If you have a daily commute where you instantly jump on the freeway, your mileage on a plugin prius probably won't go up that much and you will have thrown your money away. It is just not the best solution.


----------



## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> I didn't include the trailer option because I don't think joe sixpack wants it.


I think sometimes EV people get hung up on theoretical maximum efficiency. If you want that, ride a bike. What consumers care about first is cost. Hauling around the ICE in a series hybrid 100% of the time might be dead weight when you don't use it but the consumer doesn't feel it in the pocketbook. All he knows is that every day he stays within BEV range he's saving gas. The EV range is shorter on the same pack than it would be if the ICE were not there, or if it were a detachable trailer, but it's more convenient to just have it there and forget about it.


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



saab96 said:


> The problem is that parallel hybrids have undersized electric motors, so some degree of redesign is necessary to make them into plugins that can operate at high speed on battery power.


Most PHEVs can operate up to 50-60kph on the stock motors before the software insists on starting the engine, but I can appreciate what you're saying.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



saab96 said:


> The problem is that parallel hybrids have undersized electric motors, so some degree of redesign is necessary to make them into plugins that can operate at high speed on battery power. If you have a daily commute where you instantly jump on the freeway, your mileage on a plugin prius probably won't go up that much and you will have thrown your money away. It is just not the best solution.


Right, but I was saying there is no reason a parallel hybrid couldn't be designed with the same sized electric motor and battery pack as a serial, and therefore have the same EV range.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



JRP3 said:


> Right, but I was saying there is no reason a parallel hybrid couldn't be designed with the same sized electric motor and battery pack as a serial, and therefore have the same EV range.


Yes, but at a disadvantage when it comes to operating with the ICE running. The ICE in a series can run at its most efficient speed all the time therefore can be smaller and more fuel efficient. With the parallel setup, the ICE has to be more like a conventional car, and able to be throttled to different speeds, and this is where it loses performance and efficiency.

It just makes sense to use an ICE in an optimal configuration, and an ICE in a HEV as a primary drive system is a compromise.

Jeff


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

So for the sake of furthering the discussion of a good way to do it,
as opposed to whether it's worth doing or not.......

Here's perhaps a different perspective.
My ideal series hybrid would have a DIESEL genset that used biodiesel that i made, or straight Veg. oil.

That being said, i would actually use the genset often, to recharge the batteries and to suppliment the battery power while driving(maybe 50/50).
If i had the option to let a diesel genset run at low speed, sucking a paltry amount of my free, filtered Veg oil, to recharge my battery pack, instead of
paying the electric companies
(who use mostly oil and coal to produce electricity) 
i'm all for it.

I'm also in the "never never land" camp, but frankly, don't see it as such.

What i want is the option to use my ideal series hybrid as a BEV if i'm going to the store 5 minutes away, or use it as a series hybrid where the running,
veg oil powered diesel genset, is running at say, 50% and providing, say, 50% of the overall power needed to get me 40 minutes away(depending on traffic) to Fenway Park(and back) 
I also want the option to take that same car and because, at the ball game, i got a call that my mother is in the hospital(2 hours away and in the opposite direction of my home) I can jump in my car, crank the Veg oil sipping diesel genset up to MAX and have it powering all or most of the power to run the electric motor for the full 2 hour run, without having to go back to my house to switch cars, rent a car, or hook up a "pusher"

What i'm looking for in a hybrid/BEV might be overall less efficient with the battery power because of the weight, but a straight BEV has no ability to self
charge, and a straight BEV has the limited range with no other options.
And all current parallel hybrids use only a GAS powered ICE.
The VW TDI hybrid should change that but i've read it is a CRD diesel and because of the extremely high fuel pressure, they are not as "alternative fuel" friendly.

Based on my limited knowledge, i don't think the "meat and potates" of my idea is really that hard to accomplish.(diesel genset, battery pack, electric motor)

The hard part is the power management, which i only have a faint idea of at the moment. Much work to do.....


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

*nevermind. I overlooked something.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> Yep, your right. I should have been a lawyer. I'm sucked in again, I just can't stay away....


I knew that you'd be back.



> Point is, I, and my theoretical customers want to go to Grandma's house 400 miles away every now and then. But we might not want to fly. Here, a Series Hybrid is a great idea. (or some kind of range extending trailer)


The pusher trailer is a much better configuration. I believe I've said that throughout this thread. It takes care of the limited long range opportunities without compromising the daily drive. Eventually such pushers should be rentable so you can just rent them when you need them, and return them when you're done.



> 400 mile range is a hell of alot of batterie$! I don't think I would call it 'dependent' on the gas engine if I only needed it for 20% of the time. Say, maybe twice a year?
> 
> 
> I hope we can agree on this, right??


Then it's truly dead weight. If it's only twice a year, then renting a gas vehicle makes more sense. Or as I said, having or renting a pusher.

My complaint is having a hybrid part that you don't use most of the time integrated onto what is otherwise a pure EV vehicle. That extra weight and space can be used for batteries that extend the daily range, which is what the car is going to be used for the vast majority of the time.



> Not a waste to Grandma. Or my theoretical customers.


I just believe there are better options for occasional use. Just to be a bit funny, it's like owning a moving truck because I'm going to move eventually.

Don't permanently integrate an occasional use component.



> Well, this thread is about the best way to make a Series Hybrid, right? Not a BEV with a range extender.


A Series hybrid is either a gas car like the Prius (which we can both agree we are not talking about) or a functional PEV with a range extender.[/quote]At this point our only point of disagreement is whether or not an occasional use item (and I believe it'll be less than the 80% number that you've been quoting) should be integrated into the car or not.



> The one thing people don't like about BEV's is the limitation of not being able to go to Grandma's house. The Series Hybrid is better at answering that gap because the ICE can be engineered to run more efficiently than in a parallel hybrid. Throttling is where you lose efficiency.


I believe the ICE pusher is the optimal solution to this problem. Attach when you need it, detach when you don't.

JStrauble's pusher:

http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm

Attaches/detaches in 5 minutes and the entire infrastructure in the EV consists of a starting switch and a throttle knob. It's just about as easy to use as cruise control.

Frankly it's the ideal solution to the problem at hand. And it's easily obtainable from the existing car infrastructure.




> Well, what is better than the Serial Hybrid for a theoretical customer who wants to have a car they can do just about anything in?


Asked and answered counselor. It's truly the best of both worlds.



> So far, I think we have discussed four choices in this thread.


Let see.



> 1. Prius about 50mpg to Grandma's, limited EV range.


Rejected of course.



> 2. Yaris about 35 mpg but $10k less


Rejected to a point. OK as a rental. Cross objective if the goal is to get away from a 100% gas dependency.



> 3. EV-1 type EV range only about 150, 3 days till Grandma's house.


I thought this option was acceptable to you.



> 4. Series Hybrid 100 mpg on the trip to Grandma's, and say a 150-190 range on pure electric. NO HASSLES.


Your option. I think you left off number 5.

5. A standard EV with a range extending trailer. Options include additional batteries, a gas/diesel genset, or an EV pusher that pushes the EV. Each are detachable and rentable
if necessary. 



> I didn't include the trailer option because I don't think joe sixpack wants it.
> 
> what is the choice the buyer would make?


You think JSP won't want it when they understand that the integrated ICE cuts down on their EV range for the daily drave and that they are lugging that ICE around most of the time but not using it? I find that a reach.



> If money is a concern, obviously the Yaris. Otherwise I think the winner is number 4.
> 
> So, do we agree?


Of course not!  JSP will be happy to extend the range of the daily commute without gas for a few minutes of setup twice a year.




> p.s. no matter how many batteries you throw at a Prius, Grandma will still have to give you gas money.


Now that's the one thing we actually do agree on.

ga2500ev


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

ok chief, we get it,
you've beaten your opinion into the ground.

there are options to the solution that you completely ignore becuase you seem to have an agenda, and you've fully expressed your thoughts.

Go live your life as you choose, if you can't bring anything positive to this discussion, move along...............

Some of us would like to focus on the positive aspect of this idea,
your "devils' advocate" point of view has been noted.
It's one thing to harp on an actual technical point that would be a roadblock, it's another thing to keep whining about a philosophical
difference of opinion.

I'm fully comfortable speaking for all of us here,

WE GET IT, YOU WOULDN'T DO THIS, YOU'VE EXPRESSED YOUR THOUGHTS, NOW PLEASE GO AWAY.



ga2500ev said:


> I knew that you'd be back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> ok chief, we get it,
> you've beaten your opinion into the ground.


Why am I the only one that gets this treatment?



> there are options to the solution that you completely ignore becuase you seem to have an agenda, and you've fully expressed your thoughts.


I don't ignore them. I just point out the flaws. The only problem with the pusher is that it isn't completely NO HASSLE. However it's advantages seem to outweigh the liabilities of having to connect/disconnect and the minimal user interface.


> Go live your life as you choose, if you can't bring anything positive to this discussion, move along...............


What's not positive about the discussion? The objective has been to develop a mechanism for EV range extension for occasional use where the EV is going to be used purely as an EV for the vast majority of the time. I propose such a solution.

I fail to see the issue.



> Some of us would like to focus on the positive aspect of this idea,
> your "devils' advocate" point of view has been noted.


It's fundamentally the same solution. The only difference is that one is integrated and the other is not.

The original discussion was centered around having the gas/diesel engine kick in when the batteries reached the end of their range. It just seems that giving up battery range on a daily basis for the occasional long range trip is a serious issue.



> It's one thing to harp on an actual technical point that would be a roadblock, it's another thing to keep whining about a philosophical
> difference of opinion.


There are no technical roadblocks. There never was. Technically you get a motorcycle engine and attach it to a 20-30 kW genset. Tune the engine to run at optimal power.

That's the end of the discussion.

So the real discussion is why to configure that way vs. extending the range by adding more batteries.




> I'm fully comfortable speaking for all of us here,
> 
> WE GET IT, YOU WOULDN'T DO THIS, YOU'VE EXPRESSED YOUR THOUGHTS, NOW PLEASE GO AWAY.


I'm glad you appointed yourself the spokesperson for this thread. But you still haven't addressed the real issue for having a series hybrid. At best you'll be carrying dead weight with cut down EV range. At worst you'll still have a vehicle that's dependent on gas/diesel to function.

On the surface a hybrid looks like a good idea. But it's important to understand what your requirements are before trying to design a solution.

Snipped my previous post.

ga2500ev

P.S. May not be a good idea to appoint yourself the spokesperson when you just joined and only have 3 posts.


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Ok, i get it,

you're "that guy"

The guy who cuts and counterpoints everyone who disagrees with you.
You spend your whole day arguing, ignoring the basic concept or the original point.

let me share this with you just once and provide some clarity.

This thread isn't about "So the real discussion is why to configure that way vs. extending the range by adding more batteries"

it is CLEARLY titled "what's the best way to make a series hybrid", not, "argue what YOU perceive to be a flawed premise about series hybrids"

Get it??

The series hybrid is a real, viable option as a mode of human transportation.
We are here because we accept life's possibilities, and desire something different. Whether you can fathom it or not, you are pushing negativity.
The SAME negativity that the first naysayers did when the concept of an electric car was ever presented. The thread was started to explore the best way to make a serial hybrid. If you don't believe the concept a viable one,
that's fine, again, you've made your thoughts clear, stop being a douche-bag. You can slice and counterpoint every inch of every post, it won't change the fact that someone, maybe even someone on this thread, will make the personal choice to make a serial hybrid, and enjoy it, and be thrilled with it for YEARS. Thats the only relevant point. Your contrary opinion of whether it makes sense to people WHO ARE NOT YOU, is completely IRrelevant.

Oh, FYI, You get treated "that way" because you act, THAT WAY.
(common theme in your life?..........)





ga2500ev said:


> Why am I the only one that gets this treatment?
> 
> I don't ignore them. I just point out the flaws. The only problem with the pusher is that it isn't completely NO HASSLE. However it's advantages seem to outweigh the liabilities of having to connect/disconnect and the minimal user interface.
> What's not positive about the discussion? The objective has been to develop a mechanism for EV range extension for occasional use where the EV is going to be used purely as an EV for the vast majority of the time. I propose such a solution.
> ...


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> What i want is the option to use my ideal series hybrid as a BEV if i'm going to the store 5 minutes away, or use it as a series hybrid where the running,
> veg oil powered diesel genset, is running at say, 50% and providing, say, 50% of the overall power needed to get me 40 minutes away(depending on traffic) to Fenway Park(and back)
> I also want the option to take that same car and because, at the ball game, i got a call that my mother is in the hospital(2 hours away and in the opposite direction of my home) I can jump in my car, crank the Veg oil sipping diesel genset up to MAX and have it powering all or most of the power to run the electric motor for the full 2 hour run, without having to go back to my house to switch cars, rent a car, or hook up a "pusher"


So when you left for Fenway Park, you were pulling only 50% of the power out of the genset, and 50% out of the batteries. So, depending on your pack size, you have a partially depleted pack. Then the emergency comes....and you need the capacity to travel for hours without depleting the pack, because in a series hybrid the pack drives the motor, and if it is not driving the motor it becomes a load on the genset.

So just to make my argument, say your battery pack range was designed to give you 10 miles of BEV range (some claim the purpose of a hybrid is to minimize battery costs). and you used half getting there.....so you have a 50% pack (5 miles left), and a genset that will put out 150% of what your vehicle needs for the emergency trip. You need to go 75 miles to your emergency. With this setup, your genset should be able to fully charge your battery within the trip.

But, that is a big genset to carry around. I know you mentioned that this setup would not be optimal, just a good enough compromise. But think of this....

Say your pack was sized to give you a 60 mile range. And you only used 10 miles of your range getting to Fenway, because you didn't use the genset for any. You have the emergency, and your genset is designed to give you 100% of what it takes to cruise the vehicle. Then you still have 50 miles of BEV range, at all times, because the genset is optimized to give you the long distance cruise power, not to charge your batteries. You could go as long as you have fuel, or can find a McDonalds to get some used french fry oil. This genset would only be used in these emergency situations, and would be optimized for it. 

BUT:

How about cruising at 300wh/mi, we'll say at 75mph because it is an emergency, and we get....300x75=22.5kW for our genset. That aint so small.

But the 150% model would have to be 22.5x1.5=33.75kW! This is huge!

But if you just double the size of the pack, and take a small amount of current out of it we can take advantage Peukert's and carry a smaller genset. And have more BEV range. And the batteries will last longer because we never really dig deep into their capacity with our trips to Fenway.

More battery is good for series hybrids. Bigger gensets aren't.

Jeff


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Thanks Jeff, excellent point. It does depend on the genset of course, and i haven't even begun to wrap my head around the power management. I know there are full "off the grid" house systems to balance Solar, hydro, generator power for general household usage, but translate that to a car??

I also think that i'm just generator happy. i wouldn't even consider this route without the ability to run the ICE on biodesiel or Veg oil.
I'm really looking to get off the OPEC guillotine.
Self susaining(to a point) on veg oil is cool as well. I live in Ma., at one point Nstar sent me as part of my bill, where they buy thier electricity from. It was about 80% oil and coal. So, to me, there isn't much difference if i had a straight BEV and was then just giving my money to OPEC through a third party.


As far as gensets, 25kw isn't that huge, 35kw is getting up there.
I've seen 10-12kw gen heads that want 12-15 hp engines.
So i have that as a reference.

the series hybrid truck linked earlier in this thread has them making it with a "specially designed" 100kw genset, now thats a lot of juice.....








jwalin said:


> So when you left for Fenway Park, you were pulling only 50% of the power out of the genset, and 50% out of the batteries. So, depending on your pack size, you have a partially depleted pack. Then the emergency comes....and you need the capacity to travel for hours without depleting the pack, because in a series hybrid the pack drives the motor, and if it is not driving the motor it becomes a load on the genset.
> 
> So just to make my argument, say your battery pack range was designed to give you 10 miles of BEV range (some claim the purpose of a hybrid is to minimize battery costs). and you used half getting there.....so you have a 50% pack (5 miles left), and a genset that will put out 150% of what your vehicle needs for the emergency trip. You need to go 75 miles to your emergency. With this setup, your genset should be able to fully charge your battery within the trip.
> 
> ...


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> ok chief, we get it,
> you've beaten your opinion into the ground.


HEY! I WANT TO BE CHIEF!

ga2500ev, don't take that away from me! I thought he was after me also!

I for one think what you have said in this thread is worthwhile, and that is why I can't quit it!! It has challenged me to defend my ideas to prove you wrong! I hope it has done the same for you!

thedrail, please relax. this is what a discussion group is for, DISCUSSION! 

And please, don't speak for me!!!

Jeff


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> 25kw isn't that huge,


well, 746 watts is 1hp, so a 25000/746=33 HP.

it is bigger than you think!

Jeff


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



ga2500ev said:


> I knew that you'd be back.


Am I that predictable?




ga2500ev said:


> The pusher trailer is a much better configuration.


Hogwash, I say, Hogwash! (think of your best Foghorn Leghorn impression) 




ga2500ev said:


> You think JSP won't want it when they understand that the integrated ICE cuts down on their EV range for the daily drave and that they are lugging that ICE around most of the time but not using it? I find that a reach.


I think Joe Sixpack won't ever understand and neither will Nancy Nevermind. I can't imagine some of my friends trying to understand why they need to hook up and control this admittedly simple pusher.

A reach? Now I can't go through this math here...but the effect of say 416lbs (from my HEV-1 example) on the range of the vehicle is not going to be that bad at all....let me tell you about a dream I had....

I drive 57 miles to work and 57 miles home. That is not part of the dream. It's a pretty good job. That is 114 a day.

The dream is, it was back in 1999, when I was at the AVTI at IUPUI, and I had this HEV-1 that I was working on designing, wait, no, that is not part of the dream either.

It had NiMH batteries, which weighed about the same as the LiFePO's now, so it had the same weight margin for the genset. (Me and a few friends did a design study as part of our weekend Geek Sessions while we should have been working on the Formula Lightning.) We calculated....none of us knew how to use a slide rule, so we used our TI-95's, ahhh dammit, I'm ramblin....

Anyway, here we go...

HEV-1 with NiMH batteries, a 10kW or so genset. Weight the same as the EV-1 (with the damn Delco/Delphi EV95 batteries we blew up in the race car.) Electric range would be about the same, and the weight didn't change appreciably. I wish I knew what happened to that notebook....


So our debate is whether to integrate or not......you say the 416lbs of dead weight is too much to bear. It hurts range too much.

I say that if I had an EV-1 with LiFePO OR HiMH batteries and two bubba's in the trunk (one named GEN and the other SET) and they would get out and push if I ran out of battery capacity, they would not do any work all week on my 114 mile drive. Which I believe is more than the average person. But I would rather have those two bubba's there to push me if I needed them, because I don't want to do it myself. I'm lazy.

And, Grandma likes them.

My point in all this ramblin is....there is not enough rolling resistance increase generated by 416lbs to affect the range much at all, there is not enough extra weight to affect range appreciably, and we already have twice the range of the EV-1 (which, I believe, people were happy with) if we use the latest technology. So we have BEV range to spare, and I think the BUYING PUBLIC would appreciate taking their own Bubba's to see Grandma if they had the chance.

Carrying a range extending genset will not affect range appreciably if the car is smartly designed with enough BEV range to satisfy the BUYING PUBLIC.

Your favored solution is a good idea. I would have no trouble using it, and it may work itself into a project of mine in the future, just because it is neat. But I cannot imagine trying to explain to my wife, mother, sister, or uncle Sixpack how to use a pusher trailer.

But they don't have to interact with the Bubba's at all.

Jeff


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Of course, with a series hybrid, you could mount the genset in a box (similar to the toolboxes carried in the pickup bed by many drivers) with quick disconnects. This would allow you to take it out when you're just using the vehicle as a runabout around town, and put it back in for longer driving duties.

JSP thinks nothing of carrying extra weight around in their cars, by the way. Look at how many people treat their trunks like storage closets or load up the aforementioned toolboxes with hundreds of lbs of tools or other crap "just in case".


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> well, 746 watts is 1hp, so a 25000/746=33 HP.
> 
> it is bigger than you think!
> 
> Jeff


yeah, i was off in my estimate.

Had a chat with a friend last night about the 100kw truck link and surmised that it would almost be more beneficial to take an SUV and make it a series hybrid, instead of trying to shoehorn something into a compact car.
If you took a Veg oil powered VW 1.9L TDI and ran a huge genset with it in an Expedition. 
Remove the big V8, perhaps the tranny(and use 2 motors for all wheel drive?)

For the sake of discussion, throw caution to the wind and damn the battery pack!!!

So a manual Golf 1.9L TDI can get as much as 50mpg on Biodiesel/Veg.,
when it's atually working to push a car.
Running at an optimally efficient rpm level, running a genset,
i wonder how much a gallon of fuel would stretch?
A stock VW 1.9 TDI is 90hp (the newer 2.0 TDI is stock at 140hp)
you can reprogram the chip, change injectors, change turbos, and improve the intercooling to get you 130hp to 200+hp on a 1.9.

the math to drive a 100kw genset is 100000/746=134hp

So maybe one ends up with a Full size 4wd SUV run on a 4 cyl VW TDI based genset, that drinks Veg oil/biodiesel and gets the equivalent of 
50+ miles per gallon? A 20 gallon tank of biofuel and you get to go 1000 miles and have heat and AC, and while you are home, if the power goes out, you can power your house, your neighbors house and half the block........not bad.

Something to note about a Series hybrid(or even parallel hybrid)
that has been thus far left out of the discussion, is that the ICE, even a 1.9 VW TDIrun on Veg oil, will offer you the option of adding/using both 
AIR CONDITIONING and a HEATER. Both are vital to me.
Or, maybe i could just rent a car when it gets to -10F in Ma.


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> Something to note about a Series hybrid(or even parallel hybrid) that has been thus far left out of the discussion, is that the ICE, even a 1.9 VW TDIrun on Veg oil, will offer you the option of adding/using both AIR CONDITIONING and a HEATER.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=42747&postcount=9



Manntis said:


> One thing I've been interested in is a series hybrid with diesel generator (say, a mid size or full size car with a small diesel like in the Gen 1 or 2 Smart car). The engine/gennie would run throughout the drive, *powering the accessories (air cond. and the like, even an alternator to top up the accessory battery) and providing vacuum for the brakes* while the batteries need power only the motor and recover braking energy through regen.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> HEY! I WANT TO BE CHIEF!


Good. I didn't want the job.



> ga2500ev, don't take that away from me! I thought he was after me also!


Nope. His attack was specifically directed at me.


> I for one think what you have said in this thread is worthwhile, and that is why I can't quit it!! It has challenged me to defend my ideas to prove you wrong! I hope it has done the same for you!


It has. I've been working from off your requirements.



> thedrail, please relax. this is what a discussion group is for, DISCUSSION!
> 
> And please, don't speak for me!!!
> 
> Jeff


Thanks for that. I really do appreciate it.

ga2500ev


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



jwalin said:


> Am I that predictable?


Yes. Yes you are. So am I.



> Hogwash, I say, Hogwash! (think of your best Foghorn Leghorn impression)


I was working on the requirements that you specified. If you have enough batteries for most uses, then decoupling is a more efficient setup.



> I think Joe Sixpack won't ever understand and neither will Nancy Nevermind. I can't imagine some of my friends trying to understand why they need to hook up and control this admittedly simple pusher.


Let me take a stab at it:

"Joe, Jane. If you haul this engine around all the time, the car doesn't go as far for your daily drive. When you need to get to Grandma's, it needs more juice. That's why you hook up the trailer.

It only has a couple of controls. Use it like cruise control. Press the start button when you get on the highway, then turn the know to the speed that you like. It'll brake when you brake. That's it.

You got an EV to get away from gas, right? The more batteries you have, the less gas you need."



> A reach? Now I can't go through this math here...but the effect of say 416lbs (from my HEV-1 example) on the range of the vehicle is not going to be that bad at all....let me tell you about a dream I had....


Give it a go...



> I drive 57 miles to work and 57 miles home. That is not part of the dream. It's a pretty good job. That is 114 a day.
> 
> The dream is, it was back in 1999, when I was at the AVTI at IUPUI, and I had this HEV-1 that I was working on designing, wait, no, that is not part of the dream either.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on that. One item I've been researching is Aluminum Air batteries. Really high weight/power ration (like 2kWhr/kg, more than 10 times lithium). And inexpensive too. Only problem is that they are not rechargable.

But you can store and use them for emergency batteries. Simply keep the air out until you need them, then allow air in and they fire up. Gets you to when you are going but are consumed in the process and would need to be replaced.

Remember, I've been operating off your premise that quick refueling isn't a requirement. Once it is, then integrating the genset is a no brainer.

But I still have to beg the question: If instead of your bubbas GEN and SET, you add 416 lbs more worth of batteries (quick check: 416 lbs/7.75 lbs per module= 53 modules. 53 modules * 320 kWh/module * .76 usability = 12889 Wh) Would not nearly 13 KWh more capacity greatly extend your range and give you enough margin that your bubbas are never needed? BTW those 416 lbs of LiFePo4 would run another $10K at current prices. I think you threw out 175 Wh.mile right so By that standard you'd have an extra 73 miles of margin available for daily use.

I'm not sure, honestly. I'm just asking.



> And, Grandma likes them.
> 
> My point in all this ramblin is....there is not enough rolling resistance increase generated by 416lbs to affect the range much at all, there is not enough extra weight to affect range appreciably, and we already have twice the range of the EV-1 (which, I believe, people were happy with) if we use the latest technology. So we have BEV range to spare, and I think the BUYING PUBLIC would appreciate taking their own Bubba's to see Grandma if they had the chance.


I don't think I did a good job of conveying that I thought that replacing the genset with the equivalent weight in batteries would do more good on virtually every commute except for the ride to Grandmas. My mistake.



> Carrying a range extending genset will not affect range appreciably if the car is smartly designed with enough BEV range to satisfy the BUYING PUBLIC.
> 
> Your favored solution is a good idea. I would have no trouble using it, and it may work itself into a project of mine in the future, just because it is neat. But I cannot imagine trying to explain to my wife, mother, sister, or uncle Sixpack how to use a pusher trailer.


Regular folks use trailers. Regular folks use cruise control. The hookup and the control isn't significantly more than those two.

And remember that the objective is to make it an irregular occurance. You've been throwing out the twice a year number. I think that with the $30K of LiFePos that we've engineered in, that our range is well over 200 miles on an EV1 chassis. The only frontier left is the extended range trip.

I guess my thought process is to increase the efficiency for the now well over 90% of the trips that will be taken in the vehicle instead of focusing on the minority.

The question we should all really be asking is how can we make cheap lithium batteries. It's the true roadblock, not the genset.



> But they don't have to interact with the Bubba's at all.
> 
> Jeff



That's true. But I think if you balance it out with never having to pump fuel into the car, because in my setup the trailer get fuel, but the car never does) then JSP may actually take notice.

Also without the genset, there's one less thing to maintain, or break on the BEV.

ga2500ev


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

For the sake of the discussion,
factor air conditioning and a heater into your solution.

also, factor in the fact that unless you are recharging your BEV with your own wind, hydro or solar generated power, you are funding your electric company's purchase of oil and coal to produce the electricity you use.

Why is it that you think you are getting away from "gas"
by making a non self sustaining BEV? 
You are just having someone else buy it for you to provide energy,
and you still have a car with pretty limited abilities.

If you are searching for flaws, you should start there.




ga2500ev said:


> That's true. But I think if you balance it out with never having to pump fuel into the car, because in my setup the trailer get fuel, but the car never does) then JSP may actually take notice.
> 
> Also without the genset, there's one less thing to maintain, or break on the BEV.
> 
> ga2500ev


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> Ok, i get it,
> 
> you're "that guy"
> 
> ...


Well since I'm that guy, I guess I'll have to give counterpoint and argument to this post too.



> let me share this with you just once and provide some clarity.
> 
> This thread isn't about "So the real discussion is why to configure that way vs. extending the range by adding more batteries"
> 
> ...


Let's take it point by point.

1. A series hybrid does not represent a fundamental shift in how transportation is done. At the end of the day all hybrids have some level of dependency on liquid fuel. It's a dependency that keeps the owner attached in some form to the current ICE infrastructure

BTW I haven't even started in on biofuels.

2. It isn't negativity, it's realism. I guess I'm negative when someone comes on board and says they want to electrify an SUV so that it can go 400 miles on a charge. Hybrids create two dependencies, two systems to maintain, two systems to break, two infrastructures that have to be built and maintained. At least the big car guys are realistic and created a gas vehicle and called it a hybrid.

3. Oneshould make personal choices with informed data, not an possibly irrational feeling that it's the right thing to do.

4. Name calling isn't necessary. I haven't called you any names. I would appreciate it if you would do the same.

5. Most of the reasons that folks want a hybrid is so that they can keep driving the way that they have in the past. That's certainly not a new way of doing it. The idea is to rethink transportation, not just duplicate the current infrastructure.

I think it's important for someone coming here to understand that the reality of a hybrid is that it's going to take a large ICE engine and a heavy duty genset to get any traction. Both are going to impact the range of the battery part of the hybrid.

Most folks come into this thread because they want to get away from traditional fuels. The point is that a hybrid may not be the best way to pull that off, and that an integrated hybrid muddies the waters even more.

Not negativity, just reality.

ga2500ev


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> also, factor in the fact that unless you are recharging your BEV with your own wind, hydro or solar generated power, you are funding your electric company's purchase of oil and coal to produce the electricity you use.
> 
> Why is it that you think you are getting away from "gas"
> by making a non self sustaining BEV?


Coal != gas. Let's not mix terms loosely or we'll obfuscate everything.

You don't need your "own" wind, hydro, or solar generation. Many utilities offer it and, hopefully, the US will catch up.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> For the sake of the discussion,
> factor air conditioning and a heater into your solution.


There are both those threads floating around elsewhere in this forum. Pure BEVs already have to deal with those issues.



> also, factor in the fact that unless you are recharging your BEV with your own wind, hydro or solar generated power, you are funding your electric company's purchase of oil and coal to produce the electricity you use.


That's another discussion. I just finished watching the Coal Mining episode of "30 Days". Coal is 50% of the current electrical generation.

Also there are trillions of cubic feet of natural gas in Alaska that are under discussion to get down here.

Point is that both are not foreign sources of energy production. That means that there is more cost certainty and stability to those sources.

Someone posted a ton of different sources of electricity. 

The point is that electricity is flexible. OTOH liquid fuels are either unstable (oil, gas, diesel) or limited in production capacity (biofuels).

Batteries can be charged by the entire range from coal to solar to nuclear. Can't do that with an ICE engine.



> Why is it that you think you are getting away from "gas"
> by making a non self sustaining BEV?


See above. Let me see if I can find a chart of US electrical generation right quick... Here we go:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html

As of 2006 only 1.6% of electrical generation was generated by oil. Coal was 1/2 the capacity while nuclear, natural gas, and hydro made up virtually all the rest.

Now is coal the long term solution. Nope. But at least it's here where the US has a lot more control.

Personally I'm not a John McCain fan. But I have been listening to his energy policy and it makes sense. Use local production that you can control and secure and leave the rest alone.



> You are just having someone else buy it for you to provide energy,
> and you still have a car with pretty limited abilities.


See above. The US electrical infrastructure isn't powered by oil.

As for limited abilities there are a couple of solutions starting short term and moving out longer term.

Short Term: More batteries and using pushers. More batteries takes care of most of the daily drive, while pushers handle the long range drives.

Longer Term: Simple. Electrify the roads. Here's a Time article on the subject:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969981,00.html

This article is a bit old, but there's some more modern research paper written on the subject too.

The research showed that inductively coupled vehicles could pick up electricity off the road with 60% efficiency. And that enough energy could be transferred to drive buses, 18 wheelers, and to charge their onboard batteries too.

So if you start with sections of interstates, pretty soon you'd have the infrastructure to travel unlimited distances in a purely BEV.



> If you are searching for flaws, you should start there.


You keep bringing this discussion up like I'm totally against hybrids. I've said all along that the best marriage is the pusher/trailer concept. My sole point of contention is that you get better overall efficiency by decoupling the range extender from the vehicle. Simply put use it, just don't carry it onboard all the time.

It's tough to pull off, but even if you're using lead acid, it's possible to get 90-100 mile on a charge range. It's a rolling lead sled, but it can be done. Absolutely no problem with lithium, except for the cost.

If that number is well within your average daily usage, then there's little need to lug around the genset "just in case". 

The best reason for an onboard hybrid is when you can get enough battery for your daily range. Say if your normal route were 250 miles per day. Then the onboard ICE/genset would be ideal because it's used everyday and by coupling it with battieres you can up your MPG.

But if batteries only are within your normal driving, it just doesn't seem necessary.

ga2500ev


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Coal= a horrible carbon releasing fuel that is typically strip mined
Oil and coal are equally deplorable.

Many utilities offer it at a SUBSTANTIAL premium and i still have my doubts that the alt energy companies see even a small fraction of it.
Big energy is no more eco friendly than big oil is, don't kid yourself.



Manntis said:


> Coal != gas. Let's not mix terms loosely or we'll obfuscate everything.
> 
> You don't need your "own" wind, hydro, or solar generation. Many utilities offer it and, hopefully, the US will catch up.


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Well, at least you didn't let us down.

Funny thing is , you reply as if you never even actually read people's posts.

"BTW- i haven't even gotten into biofuels"????

ummmm, pretty much every post i've made references biodiesel and or SVO as not only an option, but the only thing i'd consider running.

I don't currently have a TDI, but i've personally installed 2 SVO conversions on friends VW's and made biodiesel with them on more than one occasion.

so how does anybody take you seriously when you aren't even reading the posts you respond to?

Let's get it right, you are being negative. Your reality is your own warped perception. You're a "realist" who "is only pointing out flaws"??

If innovation and experimentation had "rules" (outside of the laws of physics) then maybe you could sit back and spew your "realism".
just because an idea or theory doesn't work FOR YOU, doesn't mean your OPINION is right or frankly, even relevant. And when you clutter up a genuine thread with the bickering and pettiness you suck the life out of it.

What if someone with genuine experience and knowledge of the subject stopped by, then read post after post of your petty slice and dice bullshit and just left because, frankly "who needs that crap"???
That would be great, huh?

You might not be "wrong" in your opinion, but you aren't at all "right"
because the people in this thread who are actively contributing to the positive discussion pretty much all have viable(in one way or another)
suggestions. Just because those suggestions don't fit into how you would do things, doesn't make them "flawed". When people make choices while
experimenting or innovating, they are just that, their choices, and are probably every bit right for them(at least at the time they make them)

When someone like you feels the need to HARP on the choices, someone else would make, it is petty and negative.
When someone says they want to make a rectangle, and asks for help and it's a perfectly adequate, intelligent and thoughtful decision, no one's interested in having you tell them that the "real" thing to make is a square.
Why don't you get this???????

You obviosly aren't open minded enough to see beyond what you think is "the right way to do things" and by living and dying by "the battery pack"
you clearly have the misguided thought that having a BEV means you don't use "gas"
( most electricity, including what you are probably buying for your EV(if you even have one) is from an electric utility that uses mostly oil and coal to produce electricity)

So frankly, i'd take a Veg oil powered diesel genset powered serial hybrid vehicle over ANYTHING you've suggested. Might be heavier, might be less efficient, but it keeps my money out of the pockets of anyone with any relationship to oil or coal.



ga2500ev said:


> Well since I'm that guy, I guess I'll have to give counterpoint and argument to this post too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dfwheelman (May 15, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



Mastiff said:


> That's great except most lawn mower engines are 2 Stroke and break very often, plus they're louder than a rock concert, burn more oil than a 4 stroke, pollute 4 times as much, yadda, yadda, yadda.
> 
> I'd go with a small 4 stroke engine.


Ok one thing to throw a stick in the wheel of progress...

Small engines like mower, horizontal shaft gas or diesel, 2 or 4 stroke, are NOT EPA approved for motor vehicle use and will NOT pass scrutiny at inspection time.

Just thought you'd like to know 

But there are better ways on the drawing table.

How about a closed loop motor that doesnt use fuel, uses HEAT from your drive motor to drive a pair of free pistons on a common shaft in a LINEAR ALTERNATOR fashion.

It's not science fiction 



> *Dish Stirling*
> 
> A Dish Stirling system is a parabolic mirror which focuses heat directly on a Stirling engine, a simple closed-cycle engine which operates simply using any heat source. Sometimes hybridized with a fossil fuel source to provide heat when the sun is not shining.
> 
> ...


http://tomkonrad.wordpress.com/2006/12/07/they-do-it-with-mirrors-concentrating-solar-power/

towards the bottom of that article. I saw this on science channel....

Solutions are out there, we just need to think outside the battery box.


----------



## jwalin (May 7, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> Well, at least you didn't let us down.


C'mon man. get off it!



therdrail said:


> And when you clutter up a genuine thread with the bickering and pettiness you suck the life out of it.


Well, it was going great until someone sucked the life out of it with all this petty bickering. ga2500ev is just defending himself from your attacks. If there is anyone who needs to learn group etiquette it is you, thedrail.

I feel bad for you man, because I feel like you are on my side more than his in this discussion, but you can't seem to find merit in what he says because of your anger.

I'll sum up our debate....

He thinks the genset should not be carried and I do. The reason he thinks it should not be carried is because it impacts the efficiency and therefore range of the BEV operations.

IT DOES. I admit that, and he is right. It would be better off without it.

But I still want it in my product for that trip to Grandma's. I am willing to accept the compromised range because I don't think it is that much of a compromise.

In a real world ga2500ev would be the millionaire who started one company, and I would be another millionaire who started another company and we would let the market work out the decision, and then copy the winning idea!!!

I am just betting on the fact that the public wants that 'safety' even though they don't really need it. Kind of like buying SUV's in the first place...we don't need them, but they sure sell good.

so, PLEASE don't kill a good discussion with personal attacks.

Jeff


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

sorry Jeff, but your bickering with Mr. negative sucked the life out of the thread before i even got here.
Seems you both just like to hear yourselves talk.
I posted a couple real posts trying to revive the thread or get it back on track, and you 2 just had to keep bickering with the slice and counterpoint bullshit. Go back and look.

In a post where people are looking to get together and talk about apples, your buddy insists on telling people the REAL thing(according to him)
we should be talking about is oranges.

His concepts, on the overall scale of electric cars, are valid, but if we REALLY want to build a series hybrid, and we say we can afford Li batteries and we say we don't care about the added weight of a genset,
why does this guy spend page after page telling us we are "flawed"?????

we've made a personal, rational choice to pursue a direction that he wouldn't
So be it, time for him to offer something positive, or move along.







jwalin said:


> C'mon man. get off it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Ok well I haven't read through the whole thread but I've read enough to work out that it isn't working... What if I rename this thread "How viable are series hybrids?" and start a new separate thread for people who actually want to make one, not people arguing its validity...

I think the biggest thing that needs to be considered is the ratio of the differences between the everyday EV needs and the occasional long range needs. Lets consider a couple of options:



Lets say your daily drive is 40 miles return and every once in a while you want to drive 80 miles to see Grandma... In this case its probably better to go with a full electric with an 80 mile range because the total weight of batteries isn't unreasonable for everyday driving, 20kWh or so...
Now consider a the same daily drive but Grandma lives 200 miles away... To get that far is going to take 50kWh instead of the 10kWh you would need each day. Even at 50c per Wh that's still $20 000 just to see grandma. So we decide it would be better to have a generator for when we see grandma rather than spend $20 000 on batteries. Now we have two options:
We could put the generator in a trailer... then we hook up the trailer when we want to see grandma and away we go. If we only see Grandma every six months or so this is a great option.
The other option is to put the generator in the car as a series hybrid. We would have to carry the extra weight around all the time but it makes it much easier to visit grandma since we don't have to bother with hooking up/parking with the trailer and there is less drag on the highway without the extra pair of wheels. This works great if the long trip happens regularly.

As you can see the effectiveness of the options depends on the ratio of daily range vs occasional range and then the frequency of the occasional trips. If the difference between the short and long is small it is easier to get more batteries. If the ratio is big then a generator makes sense, on board if you'll use it a lot, off board if its very rare. Each to their own I say.


----------



## therdrail (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



mattW said:


> Ok well I haven't read through the whole thread but I've read enough to work out that it isn't working... What if I rename this thread "How viable are series hybrids?" and start a new separate thread for people who actually want to make one, not people arguing its validity...



yes, please........


----------



## mattW (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*

Ok new thread is here.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Well to give my opinion on the whole trailer vs on board genset thing, the only way I would want it would be to have an on board genset, I don't think I would even consider the trailer. And my reasons are this, for one I would have to have a place to store the trailer when I didn't need the thing and if you are like alot of people who have a 2 car garage that has 2 cars in it plus some other crap then the trailer will have to sit out side or take up space in the garage and one car will have to sit out side. Second I wouldn't even want to have to be pulling the trailer around it makes driving a little more difficult because the car is now longer and its just something else to worry about and its also harder to find a place to park with the thing. And third I just don't like the idea of having to pull around a trailer I just think it would seem rather lame that unless your car is pulling around this extra engine it wont be able to go very far and seeing some pics of evs with those pusher trailers on they they just look lame to me, and not very advanced or revolutionary. Plus with the added rolling resistance of the trailer and added drag when you do have to use it its not going to be as efficient. 

And I think a big advantage of the series hybrid is the ability to have a cheaper lighter batter pack, you guys keep saying there’s no reason it cant have the same size pack or be be able to go 150 miles on just batteries and sure that can be done but only if you use lithium and spend $50,000. I think part of the advantage it that you can have your ev with long range and do it for cheep. I don’t see what would be wrong with a car that could go say 30 miles on just batteries and then have to use the genset and if it was still getting say 100 mpgs like that then it would still be great hell if I had a car that got 100 mpgs I wouldn’t even be wanting an ev. Just look at the Volt if Chevy really dose come out with it I think the sales will be great as it will be the best compromise for the average consumer.


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

*Re: What would be the best way to make a Series Hybrid*



therdrail said:


> Coal= a horrible carbon releasing fuel that is typically strip mined
> Oil and coal are equally deplorable.
> 
> Many utilities offer it at a SUBSTANTIAL premium and i still have my doubts that the alt energy companies see even a small fraction of it.
> Big energy is no more eco friendly than big oil is, don't kid yourself.


I agree - but coal still isn't gas


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

Ioku said:


> Well to give my opinion on the whole trailer vs on board genset thing, the only way I would want it would be to have an on board genset, I don't think I would even consider the trailer. And my reasons are this, for one I would have to have a place to store the trailer when I didn't need the thing and if you are like alot of people who have a 2 car garage that has 2 cars in it plus some other crap then the trailer will have to sit out side or take up space in the garage and one car will have to sit out side. Second I wouldn't even want to have to be pulling the trailer around it makes driving a little more difficult because the car is now longer and its just something else to worry about and its also harder to find a place to park with the thing. And third I just don't like the idea of having to pull around a trailer I just think it would seem rather lame that unless your car is pulling around this extra engine it wont be able to go very far and seeing some pics of evs with those pusher trailers on they they just look lame to me, and not very advanced or revolutionary. Plus with the added rolling resistance of the trailer and added drag when you do have to use it its not going to be as efficient.
> 
> And I think a big advantage of the series hybrid is the ability to have a cheaper lighter batter pack, you guys keep saying there’s no reason it cant have the same size pack or be be able to go 150 miles on just batteries and sure that can be done but only if you use lithium and spend $50,000. I think part of the advantage it that you can have your ev with long range and do it for cheep. I don’t see what would be wrong with a car that could go say 30 miles on just batteries and then have to use the genset and if it was still getting say 100 mpgs like that then it would still be great hell if I had a car that got 100 mpgs I wouldn’t even be wanting an ev. Just look at the Volt if Chevy really dose come out with it I think the sales will be great as it will be the best compromise for the average consumer.


As I've said before, the genset could be in a box that slides into the back of a vehicle and connects via quick-connects. That way you would add it to the vehicle when longer trips are required.


----------



## Ioku (Sep 27, 2007)

Well that is something I would also be fine with if you can make it small and light enough to be removed easily.


----------



## Manntis (May 22, 2008)

Ioku said:


> Well that is something I would also be fine with if you can make it small and light enough to be removed easily.


That's all in the design.

When I was still in the army as an engineer, we used to perform a little show during certain parades. We'd run out onto the parade square, each carrying a component of a classic jeep that had been rebuilt with quick connects everywhere it made sense. As the rest of the troops stood at attention, we'd assemble the jeep and drive off the parade square. Just the jeep parts, a few hand tools, and some troops 

Realistically, though, an 'occasional' generator powerful enough to extend range might require an engine hoist to lift in/out... but that's no more effort than removing the hardtop on most convertible Jeeps and SUVs. Engine hoists are < $200, fold up for storage, and come in handy assembling your EV in the first place.


----------



## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Ioku said:


> Well to give my opinion on the whole trailer vs on board genset thing, the only way I would want it would be to have an on board genset, I don't think I would even consider the trailer. And my reasons are this, for one I would have to have a place to store the trailer when I didn't need the thing and if you are like alot of people who have a 2 car garage that has 2 cars in it plus some other crap then the trailer will have to sit out side or take up space in the garage and one car will have to sit out side.


My thought was to make it a rental. Lower cost and no psace issues.



> Second I wouldn't even want to have to be pulling the trailer around it makes driving a little more difficult because the car is now longer and its just something else to worry about and its also harder to find a place to park with the thing. And third I just don't like the idea of having to pull around a trailer I just think it would seem rather lame that unless your car is pulling around this extra engine it wont be able to go very far


The pusher has the specific purpose of being used only for long trips. And it's exactly the opposite, the car doesn't pull the trailer, the trailer pushes the car.

When you get to your destination, you detach it and put it aside until you're ready to head back.

It's only attached for the long trip. Other than that it isn't attached to the car at all.



> and seeing some pics of evs with those pusher trailers on they they just look lame to me, and not very advanced or revolutionary. Plus with the added rolling resistance of the trailer and added drag when you do have to use it its not going to be as efficient.





> And I think a big advantage of the series hybrid is the ability to have a cheaper lighter batter pack, you guys keep saying there’s no reason it cant have the same size pack or be be able to go 150 miles on just batteries and sure that can be done but only if you use lithium and spend $50,000. I think part of the advantage it that you can have your ev with long range and do it for cheep. I don’t see what would be wrong with a car that could go say 30 miles on just batteries and then have to use the genset and if it was still getting say 100 mpgs like that then it would still be great hell if I had a car that got 100 mpgs I wouldn’t even be wanting an ev. Just look at the Volt if Chevy really dose come out with it I think the sales will be great as it will be the best compromise for the average consumer.


The disadvantage is that it's a vehicle that's still dependent on fuel. And you're not going to get 100 mpgs once the genset kicks in.

I admit it'll be better. But it isn't going to be that much more efficient than current parallel hybrids, except for the limited electric only head start that you'll get from the plug in, which of course is even more limited by carrying the genset.

Maybe at this point I'm just beating the proverbial dead horse. While a hybrid is more convenient, it brings its own set of challenges to the table.

ga2500ev


----------

