# ThunderSky & Sky Energy update (EV Components)



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Note to everyone who is waiting on the bulk orders: 

We are at the mercy of China, ocean freight schedules, the Teamsters union and US customs. There is a lot of room for issues to happen. Please be patient. We have about 250,000 AHs of ThunderSky and Sky Energy LiFePO4 cells sitting in a customs warehouse in the Seattle region. 

We have our employees ready to start ground shipping pallets of batteries to customers as soon as we get the batteries released from customs. 

We have been responding to customers via email. But we will also post an update here on DIY and on EVDL when we get our shipments released from customs. 

We also have new bulk orders now going with ThunderSky, Sky Energy and Headway. 
The ThunderSky new container just closed, but we have extra 100 Ah cells that we ordered. 

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP100AHA

The next Sky Energy bulk order can still accept new orders for another 10 days. 

http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=33

Thanks, 

James Morrison 
http://www.evcomponents.com

5709 Lacey Blvd SE Unit 205 
Lacey, WA 98503 
360-915-7415 Warehouse 
253-988-5020 Dave Kois 
Skype contact: dkoisii


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

Have you guys heard anything about the 15Ah headway cells that are supposedly coming into production?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> Have you guys heard anything about the 15Ah headway cells that are supposedly coming into production?


We have heard about them. They are not yet available. No specs yet, but that info is a few weeks old.

I will ask for an update.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Note to everyone who is waiting on the bulk orders:
> 
> We are at the mercy of China, ocean freight schedules, the Teamsters union and US customs. There is a lot of room for issues to happen. Please be patient. We have about 250,000 AHs of ThunderSky and Sky Energy LiFePO4 cells sitting in a customs warehouse in the Seattle region.
> 
> ...


I'm just curious... do you mind sharing some of the big issues you're having? Is it they're busy and they haven't gotten around to inspecting them? They don't know how to inspect/approve batteries? Mounds of paperwork you're trying to get through? Something else?

I'm looking forward to getting my batteries! 

(EDIT: I definitely understand the delays. You're dealing with a foreign country, a federal government, and a union. If there is a worse combination I don't know it!)


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I'm just curious... do you mind sharing some of the big issues you're having? Is it they're busy and they haven't gotten around to inspecting them? They don't know how to inspect/approve batteries? Mounds of paperwork you're trying to get through? Something else?


It looks like lithium batteries (or this category of import) are always getting flagged for intensive inspection in customs. That means they open every single box. We have yet to get a light inspection.
And just because our shipment is in customs doesn't mean that they start right away. There is a backlog of items that are in line to be inspected. So our container just waits until they get to it.

It is frustrating for us also.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

A friend of mine ordered 212 SE40AHA cells as part of this order. We're in Brisbane, Australia, which is a little closer to China than Seattle. For what it's worth, we had the cells delivered a week after the ship landed. Obviously, your custom arrangements could be significantly different.

For something to do while you wait, and to be a total tease  , you could see our preliminary tests on voltage sag:

http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1158&PID=15168#15168

Executive summary: the Sky Energy cells have about 3/4 the voltage sag of the same-capacity (40 Ah in this case) Thunder Sky cells, in almost the same sized case, but a little heavier.

Finally, a big thank you to the guys at EV Components for organising this and other bulk buys!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> Finally, a big thank you to the guys at EV Components for organising this and other bulk buys!


Thank you for the kind words. Also thanks for the plug on the AEVA forums.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

ClintK said:


> I'm just curious... do you mind sharing some of the big issues you're having? Is it they're busy and they haven't gotten around to inspecting them? They don't know how to inspect/approve batteries? Mounds of paperwork you're trying to get through? Something else?
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting my batteries!
> 
> (EDIT: I definitely understand the delays. You're dealing with a foreign country, a federal government, and a union. If there is a worse combination I don't know it!)


I ordered 111 100 Ah cells. They arrived a few days ago in my country. I guess that they never had 400 kg of lithium batteries at the customs here in Croatia. I had no problems this far, hope that I can pick them up in a few days.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I ordered 111 100 Ah cells. They arrived a few days ago in my country. I guess that they never had 400 kg of lithium batteries at the customs here in Croatia. I had no problems this far, hope that I can pick them up in a few days.


Great news. Be sure to give us an update on your project as it move forward !!!


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Can I see anywhere whether my batteries are in that container or not?
So I can look forward to my delivery of the little batteries 
Or still wait cutty to the next one


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> ...We have yet to get a light inspection.


This implies that this bulk buy was not your first time importing these cells... correct?

Perhaps the method of payment for the cells is what is triggering the customs issues? Are you using a Letter of Credit or some other form of escrow or are you simple wiring money to the agent and hoping for the best?

Not trying to spread any FUD, just wondering out loud what the hold-up might be and how to possibly prevent it from occurring in the future. After all, we can't seem to get the same pricing as you guys did on our own so we might be buying lots of batteries from you in the end ourselves!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> Great news. Be sure to give us an update on your project as it move forward !!!


I just had to pay $5.000 for some taxes, transport and stuff  

Burglar government over here 

I can pick the cells up tomorrow


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Christmas in the middle of summer


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Christmas in the middle of summer


I'm so ridiculously jealous right now. Congrats though!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

You realize how heavy those batteries are when you have to carry them... 4 of us had to carry one box. 

Btw.

Should´t I receive these connectors too?







ClintK said:


> I'm so ridiculously jealous right now. Congrats though!


I know that feeling  Thanks...



But there´s still a looong way to go.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Should´t I receive these connectors too?
> 
> http://img18.imageshack.us/i/unbenanntdow.jpg/


Mine were in a small carton box located in one of big boxes buried in extra foam padding. Make sure you don't accidentally throw it out with the foam, it should be there. There is a bag of bolts and lock washers and copper links in the carton box.


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

Hi,this is Lorraine from Xinghai Energy-Headway lithium battery .
Frist,thanks for all of you to pay close attention to our Headway products.But I must say sorry to all of you that 15Ah is Exclusive Sale....

Lorraine
MSN: [email protected]
http://www.xhnykj.com 




EVComponents said:


> We have heard about them. They are not yet available. No specs yet, but that info is a few weeks old.
> 
> I will ask for an update.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

lorraine said:


> Hi,this is Lorraine from Xinghai Energy-Headway lithium battery .
> Frist,thanks for all of you to pay close attention to our Headway products.But I must say sorry to all of you that 15Ah is Exclusive Sale....
> 
> Lorraine
> ...


So they will not be available to the general public? May I ask why not?


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## lorraine (Feb 11, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> So they will not be available to the general public? May I ask why not?


it's about trade secret.....so with your understanding,I have no words,just keep slience.Thanks


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ThunderSky and Sky Energy cells arrive in our warehouse on Tuesday July 28th. Ground shipping starts ASAP.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Congratulations Crodriver!


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> ThunderSky and Sky Energy cells arrive in our warehouse on Tuesday July 28th. Ground shipping starts ASAP.


Great news!


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> ThunderSky and Sky Energy cells arrive in our warehouse on Tuesday July 28th. Ground shipping starts ASAP.


Thats today!!! Yeeeeehhhhaaaa!!!! 
I count the days ... it will take some time to germany, so maybe I will be the last one who gets his xmas-gift  (<-don't pay attention to him, he's excited)


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

brainzel said:


> Thats today!!! Yeeeeehhhhaaaa!!!!
> I count the days ... it will take some time to germany, so maybe I will be the last one who gets his xmas-gift  (<-don't pay attention to him, he's excited)


If you are in Germany, your cells should ship direct from China. They would not come to Seattle. Please contact me via email to verify your situation. Thanks.


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## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

I take it delivery would be the same for all other countries outside USA?


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## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

Both the TS and SE batteries from the last order arrived at our warehouse today. We will begin shipping them tommorow and hope to have them all out by the end of the week or so. Here are some pics for all of you that have been waiting 

Dave Kois
EV Components, LLC
http://www.evcomponents.com
360-915-7415 office
253-988-5020 cell
Skype dkoisii


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey! I can see my boxes from here! 

Think of how far you could drive if you could stick that mess in your trunk.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

I still haven't finalized my charger for the pack (30 cells / 96V nominal). This charger says it's for 16 cells / 48V.
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=45

Output is 58.2V or 3.88V per cell if I hook it up to 15 cells. At $182 (and local at that) I can pick up 2 for under $400 with tax - not a bad deal. Think that would be okay for the cells?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

ClintK said:


> I still haven't finalized my charger for the pack (30 cells / 96V nominal). This charger says it's for 16 cells / 48V.
> http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=45
> 
> Output is 58.2V or 3.88V per cell if I hook it up to 15 cells. At $182 (and local at that) I can pick up 2 for under $400 with tax - not a bad deal. Think that would be okay for the cells?


You need to ensure that these chargers are isolated so you don't short out your pack. Also, assuming you will use balancing BMS like VoltBlochers, you'd have to set shunting voltage at 3.8V-3.9V to make sure charger turns off at the end. If you set it at less than 3.8V charger will not reach its max voltage and BMS modules will produce unneccessary heat.

Hope this helps.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Dimitri,

Aren't the Manzanita chargers non-isolated?


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Dimitri,
> 
> Aren't the Manzanita chargers non-isolated?


Maybe, but no one is using 2 Manzanita chargers in series to charge one pack 

When you connect 2 chargers to one pack in series, if they are not isolated, then common ground from mains line gets connected to both halves of the pack, thus shorting them.


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The Manzanita Micro chargers are not isolated. In fact, if you touch a battery connection with it plugged in, you will receive a nasty AC shock.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

I know everyone is anxious to know details of when your ThunderSky or Sky Energy cells are shipping from our warehouse. We are organizing pallets and trying to get everything out the door by Thursday of this week. We have A LOT of crates full of batteries and we are trying to verify everything for accuracy. Trying to fix mistakes after shipment would be a mess.

Please be patient. Batteries and other parts of your orders are coming soon. 

Thanks,
James Morrison
www.evcomponents.com


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

FedEx is scheduled to delivery my batteries August 10th between 12:00 and 4:00!


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Almost everything is out via Fedex Freight, Amtrak or USPS Priority mail. I would estimate that 80% of the pallets and boxes are in transit now. A lot went out Tuesday and Wednesday. Less went out today.

We are testing some of the remaining orders because they are new types of cells and we are spot checking them via a charge/discharge test to verify the AH.

For example, we have some new TS cells that are rated at 180 AH. We are comparing them to the SE 180 AH cells. This is all being recorded and documented for people because we get so many questions asking the difference between ThunderSky and Sky Energy cells. Which is better?

Thanks for being so patient everyone. It has been a bit of a wait since the days of early May when these containers were started. But they are finally arriving at their final destination this week.

If you are a customer from these first 50+ deliveries, please let others know that they arrived and EV Components does deliver, despite China, US customs and the Teamsters union. We are still learning the best way to make this process more efficient. We are getting there.

Our next two containers from Sky Energy and ThunderSky are leaving China now and will hopefully be arriving within a few weeks.
We also have a Headway large bulk order currently on the ocean somewhere.

Thanks,
James Morrison
www.evcomponents.com


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> If you are a customer from these first 50+ deliveries, please let others know that they arrived and EV Components does deliver, despite China, US customs and the Teamsters union. We are still learning the best way to make this process more efficient. We are getting there.


Just a suggestion, you could have a section on your website of customer vehicles. There's a lot of credibility if you've got 50 electric cars with your LiFePO4 batteries powering them.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

Any initial clues as to whether the SE batteries really are significantly better than Thundersky? I think you are one of the few people in the country who have the capability to actually do some in-depth testing in the country...

For example I communicated some with the factory that make the SE batteries and they made this claim over email:


> Our SE type battery is our new production, the max continuous discharing current is 4C. And SE type battery have higher energy density. *60AH battery actual capacity is 75AH*.


Any truth to this statement as far as you can tell?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> Any initial clues as to whether the SE batteries really are significantly better than Thundersky? I think you are one of the few people in the country who have the capability to actually do some in-depth testing in the country...
> 
> Any truth to this statement as far as you can tell?


Those tests were being conducted today on the ThunderSky 180 Ah vs Sky Energy 180 Ah cells.

The first discharge cycle on the ThunderSky 180 Ah cell was 184 Ah. It will likely expand to 190 Ah after a few cycles. We are spot checking a few more to see how consistent they are. 

The Sky Energy 180 Ah cells were being charged up when I left today. So their testing will likely be tomorrow.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ClintK said:


> Just a suggestion, you could have a section on your website of customer vehicles. There's a lot of credibility if you've got 50 electric cars with your LiFePO4 batteries powering them.


That is a great idea. We can start with your car. Send us pictures when you are done.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how the TS and SE cells compare. The new specs on the TS cells are much improved from what they used to be a few months ago. They now claim a max C rate of 20C, and cycles of 3000 at 80% and 5000 at 70%! A 5000 cycle pack can basically be considered to last the life of a vehicle, and even after that they are not dead, just reduced capacity.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> That is a great idea. We can start with your car. Send us pictures when you are done.


Sure, will do


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the TS and SE cells compare. The new specs on the TS cells are much improved from what they used to be a few months ago. They now claim a max C rate of 20C, and cycles of 3000 at 80% and 5000 at 70%! A 5000 cycle pack can basically be considered to last the life of a vehicle, and even after that they are not dead, just reduced capacity.


I am not going to believe that 20C claim from TS until I can prove it. That type of improvement is just really hard to believe.

We are getting those cells in about 4 weeks. So we will see what is going on there.


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## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the TS and SE cells compare. The new specs on the TS cells are much improved from what they used to be a few months ago. They now claim a max C rate of 20C, and cycles of 3000 at 80% and 5000 at 70%! A 5000 cycle pack can basically be considered to last the life of a vehicle, and even after that they are not dead, just reduced capacity.


Where are you seeing their claims of 20C discharge rates? Are you possibly mistaking the impulse current rating (which is 20C) with the continuous rating?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jorhyne said:


> Where are you seeing their claims of 20C discharge rates? Are you possibly mistaking the impulse current rating (which is 20C) with the continuous rating?


I never said 20C was continuous. Previous max was 10C for the TS cells, now it's 20C. From the PDF's on their website.


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> FedEx is scheduled to delivery my batteries August 10th between 12:00 and 4:00!


Batteries have arrived, it's Christmas in August! Thanks EVComponents!


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## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

Got my FedEx tracking number ... 3-4 days to go ....


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

My batteries arrived in two shipments, most of them on Tuesday and the rest today. 

Many thanks to Dave and James for putting this together, answering a ton of questions, and pushing through in the face of a short delay or two. 

This customer is very satisfied. 

Dan


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Received my tracking number today, getting closer


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I never said 20C was continuous. Previous max was 10C for the TS cells, now it's 20C. From the PDF's on their website.


The A123 cells "pulsed" (50C) means 10 seconds, per the companies datasheet... I wonder what "pulsed" means for the TS or SE cells?


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## bbbowden (Apr 13, 2009)

Got my batteries from EV Components on Tuesday! Thanks a lot guys!!


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## Camaro (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm jealous! Can any of you post some pictures of your battey packs?


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Camaro said:


> I'm jealous! Can any of you post some pictures of your battey packs?


Here are 20 of the 30 cells up front. Not yet mounted, but the idea...


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## BWH (Sep 26, 2008)

I still have to cut a hole in my trunk to get mine in, but I have a shot of some of them sitting next to the battery boxes.


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## 86Honda (Apr 15, 2009)

ThunderSkys have arrived and are installed! Former absolute maximum range with FLA - 31 miles. Current max range - ? Most recent range test - 29 miles with no problem and considerble charge still left on the pack.
See the latest pics here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/145


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## bbbowden (Apr 13, 2009)

86Honda said:


> ThunderSkys have arrived and are installed! Former absolute maximum range with FLA - 31 miles. Current max range - ? Most recent range test - 29 miles with no problem and considerble charge still left on the pack.
> See the latest pics here:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/garage/cars/145


 
Bob,

What size cells did you get?


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## 86Honda (Apr 15, 2009)

bbbowden said:


> Bob,
> 
> What size cells did you get?


100Ah yellow TS - 30 of them.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

I picked up my batteries from the FedEx freight terminal on Friday. Can’t wait to put these babies to the test! Add another happy customer to the list…


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My new toys arrived today 



















It's been a long process but James and Dave were very helpful along the way and have been a pleasure to deal with. I'll continue to recommend them to anyone interested. Now I have to stop procrastinating and finish this build!


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Any idea what the "m" stickers mean? Or did you put those on?

Just curious.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think they are "E" stickers, and no, I don't know what they mean. James, Dave?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I think they are "E" stickers, and no, I don't know what they mean. James, Dave?


Each set of batteries was matched and they put letters on them so we knew which batteries were matched to which.
They matched the capacity and internal resistance.

James
www.evcomponents.com


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

I noticed in the recent photos of the TS packs that the cells seem to be banded into of 5 cell batteries with handles. Did they come from the manufacturer that way or did EVComponents add that?

For those that have added volt blockers, how much weight and cost did they add to the battery/pack?


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## 86Honda (Apr 15, 2009)

RE Farmer said:


> I noticed in the recent photos of the TS packs that the cells seem to be banded into of 5 cell batteries with handles. Did they come from the manufacturer that way or did EVComponents add that?
> 
> For those that have added volt blockers, how much weight and cost did they add to the battery/pack?


The packaging was convenient, but I don't know who did it. VoltBlochers are of almost insignificant weight, and my 30 (pre-assembled, since my solder skills are minimal) were about $550. Brian stands behind his product.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

RE Farmer said:


> I noticed in the recent photos of the TS packs that the cells seem to be banded into of 5 cell batteries with handles. Did they come from the manufacturer that way or did EVComponents add that?
> 
> For those that have added volt blockers, how much weight and cost did they add to the battery/pack?


I got mine banded directly from china


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP, is there any specific reason why you decided to use the SkyEnergy cells?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> JRP, is there any specific reason why you decided to use the SkyEnergy cells?


To be honest I'm not sure I ever actually specified the SE cells, I was just interested in a 100ah cell and wasn't sure which I was going to get until they shipped. I was a bit unclear at the time if TS actually made the 100ah cell or if it was actually a SE cell. I figured I could work with whatever showed up. Each seems to have it's own benefits, with the one big negative for the SE cells being the clamping setup, but I'll probably be packing the cells into larger blocks anyway so I'm not sure I could have used the TS strapping. Unless you can put the straps together to make larger packs? I would like to have the TS end plates though.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I think that there are some photos of 8 or maybe 10 cells strapped together in the TS manual I got with my cells but they recommend 5 cells in one pack.

I can scan it tomorrow. You can find some good info in the manual.


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

If you have packs of 5 and you use PakTrakr, will it monitor each pack? I thought PakTrakr said the individual packs shouldn't be more than 12V; 5 cells ~16V.


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## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

jrp3, are you using your 100ah cells with the ac-31 motor? The friend of mine who test the cell I've ordered told me that the TS-100ah can be use at
1C continuous 
2C continuous 
3C limited at 10mn 
4C limited at 5mn 
5C limited for few seconds

And that it will going to be just for the ac-31, and I should use a pack with more Ah


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

80N541 said:


> j
> 5C limited for few seconds


Could you please ask him if 10C is possible for 15 sec?

And what if we exceed this limits? Are they getting hot or swell?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

80N541 said:


> jrp3, are you using your 100ah cells with the ac-31 motor? The friend of mine who test the cell I've ordered told me that the TS-100ah can be use at
> 1C continuous
> 2C continuous
> 3C limited at 10mn
> ...


Yes I'm using the 100 amp cells with my AC31, but my cells are SE, not TS. The SE cells are rated at 4C continuous where the TS cells are rated 3C continuous. I don't think it should be a problem in either case since the controller for the AC31 maxes out at 550 amps. Remember battery amps will be less than motor amps except at full throttle.


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## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Could you please ask him if 10C is possible for 15 sec?
> 
> And what if we exceed this limits? Are they getting hot or swell?


he can't go any further with his test stuff. The batteries are air cooled. He said that 5C produce too much heat (for the few second of the test) for his cooling system.

I was said that Sky Energy and thundersky cells were build in the same factory...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that SE was making some cells for TS, not sure if that is still the case. The current SE cells use a slightly different chemistry than the TS cells, incorporating the new Aleees powder: http://www.aleees.com/en/support/Cathode_material.htm


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## RE Farmer (Aug 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Yes I'm using the 100 amp cells with my AC31, but my cells are SE, not TS. The SE cells are rated at 4C continuous where the TS cells are rated 3C continuous. I don't think it should be a problem in either case since the controller for the AC31 maxes out at 550 amps. Remember battery amps will be less than motor amps except at full throttle.


OT: I'm planning an installation similar to yours, AC31 & 100Ah LFP. What I'm not understanding is how the motor amps can be more than battery amps. In order for that to be true wouldn't the controller have to be hooked up to an outside power source and act as an amplifier?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Remember what the motor controller does, it modulates the pack voltage to the motor. So the pack is always at full voltage, say 120 volts, but the controller might only be sending half that to the motor. So the battery could be supplying 120 volts and 100 amps but the motor is seeing 60 volts and 200 amps. That's the case up until the controller is at full throttle and at that point it can only send max pack voltage and max pack amps, minus losses of course. So the average pack amps will be less than motor amps.


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

So I've had my Thunder Sky batteries installed for a few hundred miles. I don't have any instrumentation (not even a voltmeter to see what voltage is under load). I just have the voltmeter built into the ecity charger. 

After about 20 miles of driving around town, the voltage on the charger is showing 78.8v. This works out to 3.28v per cell. I'm using 100 ah cells. Anybody want to guess what my SOC is after 20 miles? It's hard to figure since the discharge curve is pretty flat.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

jondoh said:


> After about 20 miles of driving around town, the voltage on the charger is showing 78.8v. This works out to 3.28v per cell. I'm using 100 ah cells. Anybody want to guess what my SOC is after 20 miles? It's hard to figure since the discharge curve is pretty flat.


My guess is that your SOC is between 90% and 30%  . To get better estimate you need to use some damn instrumentation


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm guessing around 80% assuming about 300wh/mi draw. If you're more efficient then less discharge, less efficient more discharge. I wouldn't go any further on a charge without knowing for sure.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

I assume you mean 80% discharge, not 80% SOC. Just based on the pack size and distance travelled, right? The 3.2 VPC unfortunately doesn't say much.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah 80% discharge based on pack size, distance traveled, and estimated 300wh/mi.


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## jondoh (Sep 8, 2008)

So after posting, i charged it for about an hour and drove a few more miles. Pack voltage was about 77.5 v which is closer to 3.2 v per cell. It took about 8 hours to fully charge (at about 10 amps) so the pack was about 80% depleted. 

I'm estimating at about 230 wh/mile for a 75% discharge and 25 miles.


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## frk2 (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm in Karachi, Pakistan and wish to be in on the next bulk order! I am currently running on Lead Acid but would require around 23 x 3.2v LiFePo4 with the BMS and Charger. When is the next bulk order happening?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

frk2 said:


> I'm in Karachi, Pakistan and wish to be in on the next bulk order! I am currently running on Lead Acid but would require around 23 x 3.2v LiFePo4 with the BMS and Charger. When is the next bulk order happening?


We are doing an order soon for international customers that will ship directly from China. 

If anyone in Europe, Australia or any non-USA destination, wants to join the next ThunderSky bulk order, we need to know soon.


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

I'll pass this one. i'm waiting to receive the SE cell i've ordered you, and making some tests before making my choice.


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

You don't need to wait for a "bulk order " to order your Sky Energy cells.
I can get them anytime your ready. No minimums
FalconEV.com


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> You don't need to wait for a "bulk order " to order your Sky Energy cells.
> I can get them anytime your ready. No minimums
> FalconEV.com


Nice to see your prices have come down to earth. Still not sure why you continue to spread mis information on Thundersky cells though. There are too many people using them successfully these days.


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm looking to borrow a TS 100Ah cell to lab test. You got one ?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

It would be nice if the prices were even lower  jk i know i know, its the manufacturer...

I wonder what sort of mass discount buying millions of cells would garner...


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

FalconEV said:


> I'm looking to borrow a TS 100Ah cell to lab test. You got one ?


I don't, but you can buy them you know
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP100AHA
They are actually doing comparison testing between SE and TS cells, so far they seem to be about the same.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> I don't, but you can buy them you know
> 
> http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS-LFP100AHA
> 
> They are actually doing comparison testing between SE and TS cells, so far they seem to be about the same.


Actually TS is coming out stronger in some tests. But overall I find it hard to say that one is better than the other.

ThunderSky does have more user friendly hardware to strap the cells together. That is the general feedback that I am getting from customers.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> Actually TS is coming out stronger in some tests.


So in the area that Sky Energy is supposed to be better (4C continuous discharge vs 3C continuous discharge), are the Sky Energy cells showing any advantage?

Maybe you're not doing a test yet that would show up this advantage, if it exists.

I'm very interested in the outcome of this, since a friend and I are working with a pack of 208 Sky Energy cells, and would like to repeat the conversion several times, so we will need to decide TS vs SE for next time. Already, the BMS boards and even the battery racks are slightly customized for SE.


----------



## JSRacer (Jun 22, 2008)

Hey guys, I'd like to get an idea on how much a *lithium pack* would be for a new Scion Xb. Basically, I'd like to have around a 100 mile range and see a top speed of at least 65 mph. Most likely I'll be using a 8" or 9" DC motor and a 500 amp controller. Can anyone give me a round-about price so that I know what I'm looking at as far as *price*? Thanks!


----------



## 80N541 (Jan 11, 2009)

take contact directly with evcomponents, there is a fast answer


----------



## FalconEV (Aug 21, 2007)

OR...
You can contact FalconEV.com
12 hours a day, 7 days a week !


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

JSRacer said:


> Hey guys, I'd like to get an idea on how much a *lithium pack* would be for a new Scion Xb. Basically, I'd like to have around a 100 mile range and see a top speed of at least 65 mph. Most likely I'll be using a 8" or 9" DC motor and a 500 amp controller. Can anyone give me a round-about price so that I know what I'm looking at as far as *price*? Thanks!


Let's figure about 300 wh/mi, 100 mile range means about 30 kwh pack, .40 per wh = about $12,000 ish including shipping.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Let's figure about 300 wh/mi, 100 mile range means about 30 kwh pack, .40 per wh = about $12,000 ish including shipping.


100 cells x 100 AH (3.2V nominal) = 10,000 AH

$1.10 per AH = $11,000 plus shipping
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP100AHA

There are a lot of different ways to skin that for different pack voltage levels.
The overall price per AH will stay constant no matter how you configure that with different sizes of cells and the quantity to reach your total kwh.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> So in the area that Sky Energy is supposed to be better (4C continuous discharge vs 3C continuous discharge), are the Sky Energy cells showing any advantage?


We cannot find any advantage of Sky Energy over ThunderSky. They both are very similar in performance.
And they both keep changing their specs every few months with improvements they are making in competition. So if I say something about the cells now in the current shipment, it won't be valid in the cells we deliver 3 months from now.

So far only two things are consistent.

1) ThunderSky appears to have more user friendly hardware for strapping. Everyone loves how ThunderSky does it. Many complaints about the Sky Energy method.

2) ThunderSky is a bit less expensive.

We are selling a lot more ThunderSky lately based on the above two issues.


----------



## evlowrider (Jul 23, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> 1) ThunderSky appears to have more user friendly hardware for strapping. Everyone loves how ThunderSky does it. Many complaints about the Sky Energy method.


Has anyone got some close up pics or specs for this strapping?

I want to find the best way for my Sky Energy cells.


Pete.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll be using 6 foot cargo straps with a turnbuckle to tighten them up, and aluminum plate for the ends.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> We cannot find any advantage of Sky Energy over ThunderSky. They both are very similar in performance.
> And they both keep changing their specs every few months with improvements they are making in competition. So if I say something about the cells now in the current shipment, it won't be valid in the cells we deliver 3 months from now.


The question is are the new specs accurate or just marketing? Are they the result of actual improvements or just further testing of already existing capabilities?


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> The question is are the new specs accurate or just marketing? Are they the result of actual improvements or just further testing of already existing capabilities?


ThunderSky actually did make changes in their materials. I won't give away their secrets, but they shipped us something that gave us confidence that they are really improving and their numbers are valid. 

So I do have confidence that their quality has definitely improved with the cells that we our customers have been receiving this summer.


----------



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

33 (of 38) cells are installed! Wihin the next four to six weeks, I plan to get everything ready


----------



## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

Those look great brainzel.
Are those 120 Ah Sky Energy cells?
I was told those were unavailable.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Brainzel, that actually looks very slick. Nice box design.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Brainzel, that actually looks very slick. Nice box design.


Looks like a particle board container. Do you think it will be stiff enough to prevent cell swelling? I was told that it is necessary to contain any swelling with the battery enclosure.

Curious,

major


----------



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks to all. Yes, these cells are SE 120AHA from EVComp. I ordered three month ago, so maybe they don't offer them any more...
I left about 2mm space to each side of the "tank". I read a lot, but found no expansion measure.


----------



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Further to the particle board issue.... in addition to expansion issues... you will find that this material has very little strength and deteriorates after being exposed to high moisture levels. It is not for use outside or in structural applications. If you want to use wood, I suggest exterior grade plywood (Fir) and then treat it with a preserver (like Thompson's Water Seal) + paint.

Nice looking pack though!


----------



## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

It's only a temporary arrangement untill I got the "goods vehicle test certificate" from our Technical Inspection Agency. Later on I want to weld a battery trunk into the cargo bay.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

brainzel said:


> I left about 2mm space to each side of the "tank". I read a lot, but found no expansion measure.


Actually you don't want any space, you want to have the cells tight so that they can't expand. Expanding = bad. The clamping systems they come with, though not very good, keep the cells tight.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

All,

I bought the a Chinoz PFC Battery Charger and it just arrived. Everything on the car is done, I just need to wire up the charger. Problem though, it has extra wires I don't know what to do with!

The charger has large black and red wires, those are obviously for output. But with those wires, is a small green one. What's it for?

The small red/yellow wire is for 5V input. What's that for?

There is a small attachment, I'm guessing to measure temperature? Would I put that on my batteries?

Thanks!

(Once the batteries get charged I'm on the road; I'm wwaayy too excited! )


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ClintK said:


> All,
> 
> I bought the a Chinoz PFC Battery Charger and it just arrived. Everything on the car is done, I just need to wire up the charger. Problem though, it has extra wires I don't know what to do with!
> 
> ...


Didn't they include a manual with it? No instructions? Or are you the typical guy who throws that away with the box


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My guesses: On my Manzanita the output cable is a standard 3 conductor cable that doesn't use the third green conductor, though on yours it looks like a much smaller wire, not a standard 3 conductor cable, so I don't know. The 5 volt input might be meant to take a signal from a BMS?
No instructions?


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

The instructions give specifications, meaning of the LED indicators, the protection features, and fault indications. There are installation instructions, but it is only how to mount it, nothing about the output wires. (Actually I reread it, and it does mention "thermal sensor" so I guessed right on that. Still no mention of the green wire or 5V input though.)


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Been Googling for about an hour (avoiding cleaning the garage) and can't find much info on the PFC charger. Searched Elcon, QuiQ chargers and some other Chinese made chargers and couldn't find a manual with the information given.

My guess is the green wire may be a grounding wire. Try ohming the wire and the charger body and see if you have continuity. It may be a case ground.

There's a sticker that says "Input" on the case body but can't make the info out. Almost looks like 12V ?


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Been Googling for about an hour (avoiding cleaning the garage) and can't find much info on the PFC charger. Searched Elcon, QuiQ chargers and some other Chinese made chargers and couldn't find a manual with the information given.
> 
> My guess is the green wire may be a grounding wire. Try ohming the wire and the charger body and see if you have continuity. It may be a case ground.
> 
> There's a sticker that says "Input" on the case body but can't make the info out. Almost looks like 12V ?


Yeup, I googled for quite a bit trying to find a more detailed manual as well and had no luck.

Ohmed between the green wire and charger body, no continuity.

The manual doesn't mention the 5V input wire, I read that off the case body. (Doesn't say anything other than 5V DC Input.)


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Yeup, I googled for quite a bit trying to find a more detailed manual as well and had no luck.
> 
> Ohmed between the green wire and charger body, no continuity.
> 
> The manual doesn't mention the 5V input wire, I read that off the case body. (Doesn't say anything other than 5V DC Input.)


Who'd you buy this from? Can't they give you the answers?

major


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

major said:


> Who'd you buy this from? Can't they give you the answers?
> 
> major


ClintK bought it from EV Components. These are new to us also. We just received a big shipment of these chargers. We are trying to get the info now from the manufacturer.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> ClintK bought it from EV Components. These are new to us also. We just received a big shipment of these chargers. We are trying to get the info now from the manufacturer.


Hey guys, not trying to throw you under the bus! I was hoping the extra wire was a common theme among chargers and someone with a similar charger knew the answer.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

One of the people here has an Elcon PFC 3000. He must be one of the guys on the Paktrkr driving me nuts thread.

The plug is shown with the label for the wire (red instead of green). The tag on the wire says:

"Charge Interlock 
To Controller or drive enable Battery + normal
0V out while charging"

Look for yourself down the page on this build thread.

http://eprotege.blogspot.com/
From one of his comments, he doesn't know where it goes either... 

http://eprotege.blogspot.com/


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> One of the people here has an Elcon PFC 3000. He must be one of the guys on the Paktrkr driving me nuts thread.
> 
> The plug is shown with the label for the wire (red instead of green). The tag on the wire says:
> 
> ...


Nice find! Sounds like an optional way to keep you from driving off while charging. Key being optional


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> ClintK bought it from EV Components. These are new to us also. We just received a big shipment of these chargers. We are trying to get the info now from the manufacturer.


You sell stuff without instruction manuals from the manufacturer? Or even trying it yourself? Must be a great way to do business.


----------



## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Nice find! Sounds like an optional way to keep you from driving off while charging. Key being optional


Here we go!! 

This pdf for the PFC 5000 should answer your questions on how to wire up the Charge Interlock green wire. See page 2.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/PFC5000.pdf


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

tj4fa said:


> Here we go!!
> 
> This pdf for the PFC 5000 should answer your questions on how to wire up the Charge Interlock green wire. See page 2.
> 
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/PFC5000.pdf


Great thanks!


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Coulomb said:


> If you're game, you could connect a multimeter to the 5 volt wires, and just power it up with no connection to any battery,


Some chargers can be damaged if they are not connected to a pack when turned on.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Some chargers can be damaged if they are not connected to a pack when turned on.


Oops.  Perhaps my suggestions weren't as helpful as they were intended. I've edited the original post to discourage charger harm.

Edit: and subsequently deleted.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

major said:


> You sell stuff without instruction manuals from the manufacturer? Or even trying it yourself? Must be a great way to do business.


Thanks for the cheap shot from the bleachers.

If you would read ClintK's postings before you contributed your business advice, you would notice that he did receive the instruction manual with the charger. 
But the manual doesn't appear to have info on this particular issue.


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Just got official word back: green wire is interlock, 5V input is for BMS


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Thanks for the cheap shot from the bleachers.
> 
> If you would read ClintK's postings before you contributed your business advice, you would notice that he did receive the instruction manual with the charger.
> But the manual doesn't appear to have info on this particular issue.


 
Sorry, you're right.


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

New Sky Energy cells just arrived today...


----------



## dexion (Aug 22, 2009)

Thats a wierd looking battery enclosure on that forklift


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

ClintK said:


> Just got official word back: green wire is interlock, 5V input is for BMS


I hooked up the charger, but it kept giving the error "battery disconnected". Dave @ EVComponents helped me out though and told me that the BMS signal is required for the charger. I hooked up a 6V battery to it, and now it's charging! Just letting the group know for future reference!


----------



## Powered By DC (Jan 3, 2009)

dexion said:


> Thats a wierd looking battery enclosure on that forklift


 
I know, I catch flack about it all the time from James  It was available and local when we first started it is going to be replaced by an Electric forklift in the very near future


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

dexion said:


> Thats a wierd looking battery enclosure on that forklift


It looks like a cylindrical battery cell pack to me.


----------



## crashnfool (Sep 26, 2009)

Powered By DC said:


> I know, I catch flack about it all the time from James  It was available and local when we first started it is going to be replaced by an Electric forklift in the very near future



Yeah it does suck......but it will be replaced soon.....RIGHT????


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

ThunderSky cells just arrived today.


----------



## frk2 (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm guessing this doesnt include my cells (Faraz) being shipped from China directly. I can hardly wait!!


----------



## jorhyne (Aug 20, 2008)

Are all the Thundersky batteries strapped together in packs of five? What do you do if you want to build a pack that is not a multiple of 5 (24 for example) ?


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> Are all the Thundersky batteries strapped together in packs of five? What do you do if you want to build a pack that is not a multiple of 5 (24 for example) ?


I ordered 111 cells.

21 packs came with 5 cells strapped together and one pack with 6 cells.

I guess you can customize that


----------



## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

jorhyne said:


> Are all the Thundersky batteries strapped together in packs of five? What do you do if you want to build a pack that is not a multiple of 5 (24 for example) ?


You can have them in packs of 4 also.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> You can have them in packs of 4 also.


I had mine banded in groups of 4, 6, 7, and 10. I'm trying to fill in every possible square inch of area. 

You would probably prefer them banded in groups with odd numbers to make it easy to connect packs in series.


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

etischer said:


> I had mine banded in groups of 4, 6, 7, and 10. I'm trying to fill in every possible square inch of area.
> 
> You would probably prefer them banded in groups with odd numbers to make it easy to connect packs in series.


Mine came banded in groups of five. I had to repackage into 4 groups of 9, 1 of 5 and 1 of 4. It is not a small job. Did TS package your cells into 4, 6, 7 and 10 by your request? I was told they would not package greater than 5.

Rob


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, that is how I ordered them from EVC. They told me 10 was about the largest group they could do. Yea, that seems like it would take all day to make bands and regroup 100 cells. 

I just placed my order on 9/14, so I think my cells will come in on the next shipment. 

What are you using for BMS?



RKM said:


> Mine came banded in groups of five. I had to repackage into 4 groups of 9, 1 of 5 and 1 of 4. It is not a small job. Did TS package your cells into 4, 6, 7 and 10 by your request? I was told they would not package greater than 5.
> 
> Rob


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

etischer said:


> Well, that is how I ordered them from EVC. They told me 10 was about the largest group they could do. Yea, that seems like it would take all day to make bands and regroup 100 cells.
> 
> I just placed my order on 9/14, so I think my cells will come in on the next shipment.
> 
> What are you using for BMS?


looks like you are going to be dropping a lot of lead-weight Mr. AC Passat...

Any predictions on your acceleration/performance increase with the less overall mass?


----------



## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

etischer said:


> Well, that is how I ordered them from EVC. They told me 10 was about the largest group they could do. Yea, that seems like it would take all day to make bands and regroup 100 cells.
> 
> I just placed my order on 9/14, so I think my cells will come in on the next shipment.
> 
> What are you using for BMS?


I'm using Belktronix hardware, which includes individual cell BMS. I'll start wiring that up in the next day or two.

I wish I'd be given the option to have the cells grouped as I needed, would have saved a lot of effort. I imagine TS would prefer the 5 pack to simplify their crating and shipping.

Good luck with your cells.

Rob


----------



## Number 6 (Feb 18, 2008)

RKM said:


> I'm using Belktronix hardware, which includes individual cell BMS. I'll start wiring that up in the next day or two.
> 
> I wish I'd be given the option to have the cells grouped as I needed, would have saved a lot of effort. I imagine TS would prefer the 5 pack to simplify there crating and shipping.
> 
> ...


Hi, Rob.
I would be very interested in your progress and results since I'm also going with Belktronix and TS LiFePO4. My controller/charger kit is currently being manufactured and I plan to purchase my batteries within a few months (hopefully).


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The weight should be reduced about 300 lbs, it is 4010 currently.

The power should increase about 10% (above 4000 rpm) since my sag voltage will increase from 280v to 310v at 50% dod. 

Mass: 7% lighter
Force: 10% more (above 50% speed)
Acceleration should increase 13%. A=(1.05/0.93)
Time 0 to 60 mph: should decrease 13%, so I should be around 14 seconds. 

Range should increase from 30 miles to 100 miles (100Ah Li vs 55Ah Pb)
Might be even more because I do quite a bit of regen on my commute, I'm sure I loose a bit of efficiency using lead batteries




Bowser330 said:


> looks like you are going to be dropping a lot of lead-weight Mr. AC Passat...
> 
> Any predictions on your acceleration/performance increase with the less overall mass?


----------



## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

etischer said:


> The weight should be reduced about 300 lbs, it is 4010 currently.
> 
> The power should increase about 10% (above 4000 rpm) since my sag voltage will increase from 280v to 310v at 50% dod.
> 
> ...


I thought you would lose more weight...hmmm...

Maybe you should start a thread about your battery conversion, I think A LOT of people want to know about the results of range, acceleration, and regen on an AC Lifepo4 setup...


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The weight savings isn't much, but kwhr increased by 4x!

My lead pack weighs in at 1000lbs.
I am installing 99 TS100Ah cells: 700lbs
If I went with the TS60Ah it would be: 520lbs.

I've been happy with the performace, but not the range, so I opted for more AH rather than less weight. 

I'm really curious to see how my whr/mi changes. The regen process is probably only 30% efficient with Lead Acid, I'm hoping for 60% with Li. When I get my batteries I'll start a thread, and post updates on my webpage. 

-e



Bowser330 said:


> I thought you would lose more weight...hmmm...
> 
> Maybe you should start a thread about your battery conversion, I think A LOT of people want to know about the results of range, acceleration, and regen on an AC Lifepo4 setup...


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

kittydog42 said:


> The Manzanita Micro chargers are not isolated. In fact, if you touch a battery connection with it plugged in, you will receive a nasty AC shock.


I can confirm that

Just got my fist shock 

It's hard to switch in your head that you can't touch this terminals while charging. I mean, I touched them thousand times and I know that I can't do that while charging but I just forgot it


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

kittydog42 said:


> The Manzanita Micro chargers are not isolated. In fact, if you touch a battery connection with it plugged in, you will receive a nasty AC shock.





CroDriver said:


> I can confirm that
> 
> Just got my fist shock
> 
> It's hard to switch in your head that you can't touch this terminals while charging. I mean, I touched them thousand times and I know that I can't do that while charging but I just forgot it


The A/C voltage flows through the battery terminals during a charge? How does that work? How does it not affect BMS systems, shunt systems, or cause other issues with AC power being directly present?

Which chargers are isolated and safe from this? I'm still looking at which chargers would be suitable for a shunt based system capable of 220 volts 30 or 40 amps for a 112 volt nominal LiFePO4 pack.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> The A/C voltage flows through the battery terminals during a charge?


No, the ac potential is from either charger terminal to earth (and therefore from every battery terminal to earth, with a different DC offset depending on where you touch it). There is no AC voltage in the DC circuits. So it means it's quite safe for the pack and everything else, but it means you mustn't touch any part of the pack while charging. But you shouldn't be doing this anyway, right?



> Which chargers are isolated ...


Most of them are isolated; the PFC series aren't because of their topology (power factor correction/ harmonic minimisation stage, followed by a transformerless buck stage). The earth "connection" is at the neutral link of the power board, where neutral is connected to earth.

The "dangers" of a non-isolated charger are largely psychological, though some may argue with this.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> No, the ac potential is from either charger terminal to earth (and therefore from every battery terminal to earth, with a different DC offset depending on where you touch it). *There is no AC voltage in the DC circuits.* So it means it's quite safe for the pack and everything else, but it means you mustn't touch any part of the pack while charging. But you shouldn't be doing this anyway, right?


I have charged a few batteries that are just laying around in my garage. They are not connected to earth but I did got a AC shock


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I have charged a few batteries that are just laying around in my garage. They are not connected to earth but I did got a AC shock


Ah, misunderstanding. I meant by "there is no AC voltage in the DC circuits" that the batteries don't get charged with AC or anything like that; they get fairly pure DC as you would expect from any charger _between their terminals_. But there is mains AC _between either terminal and ground_. _You_ are connected to ground, more or less well depending on your footwear and whether you are touching the chassis etc. Even in well insulated footwear and not touching anything else, you still are connected to ground by a few picofarads of capacitance, which may be enough to give you at least a tingle.

MN Driver was concerned that the non-isolated chargers might be damaging batteries and other DC circuits by subjecting them to AC currents. This is not the case. But as you have found for yourself, there is AC voltage (potential, as in potential current, turned into real current if you touch it) between the non-isolated charger and ground.

Oh, and I realise that you would consider my statement
"The "dangers" of a non-isolated charger are largely psychological..." 
to be difficult to agree with after receiving a shock from one.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Coulomb said:


> MN Driver was concerned that the non-isolated chargers might be damaging batteries and other DC circuits by subjecting them to AC currents. This is not the case. But as you have found for yourself, there is AC voltage (potential, as in potential current, turned into real current if you touch it) between the non-isolated charger and ground.
> 
> Oh, and I realise that you would consider my statement
> "The "dangers" of a non-isolated charger are largely psychological..."
> to be difficult to agree with after receiving a shock from one.


I wasn't one bit concerned about the chargers damaging the batteries, I generally would like to avoid as many electrical safety issues as possible to make things as safe as I can with a conversion. I think that exposed voltage should be limited as much as possible but to know that it's possible to get shocked with 240 volts AC merely by touching a single terminal is something I'd prefer to avoid. In a DC system as long as I'd only be touching a single terminal with one hand and the system is not connected to chassis ground there shouldn't be an issue, such as feeling for a thermally hot connection after a drive as many people do on this forum to find any bad connections after a high amp run to make sure everything is a-ok.


----------



## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

Oops, my mistake then. Rereading your original post, the AC potential does exist on the DC terminals (but doesn't "flow through" them unless you touch one).

Certainly, if you are in the habit of touching DC terminals and expecting them to be safe, then a non-isolated charger is probably not the best choice. It's just too easy, as CroDriver has found out, to forget to make an exception while charging is underway.

On the 600+ volt conversion I'm involved with, I won't be touching any terminals deliberately at all. We'll eventually have a leakage detector, which means a probable tickle at minimum for every touch, since the leakage detector has to introduce at least a little conductivity to ground to do its job. The idea is that real leakages or shorts are found immediately, so something can be done about them, before a second leakage causes much bigger problems. (Plus, the first leakage could turn every touch from a tingle to lethal).


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## tj4fa (May 25, 2008)

Ok now you guys got me confused and worried about this non-isolated charger crap. 

So are you saying I will receive a nasty (lethal) shock from my non-isolated 6KW PFC charger (I haven't installed yet) if I:

-Touch a battery terminal while charging?
-Touch a battery terminal while charging and I have a ground fault to chassis (and my body touches chassis)?
-Touch a battery teminal with one hand while charging and somehow my body has a path to ground - let's say wet conductive shoes standing on ground?
-Have an on-board generator powering the non-isolated charger while driving (both the mains power source and charger are floating)?

Is there a way to connect a non-isolated charger through a GFI or some other safety device to avoid electrocution and certain death?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> I wasn't one bit concerned about the chargers damaging the batteries, I generally would like to avoid as many electrical safety issues as possible to make things as safe as I can with a conversion. I think that exposed voltage should be limited as much as possible but to know that it's possible to get shocked with 240 volts AC merely by touching a single terminal is something I'd prefer to avoid. In a DC system as long as I'd only be touching a single terminal with one hand and the system is not connected to chassis ground there shouldn't be an issue, such as feeling for a thermally hot connection after a drive as many people do on this forum to find any bad connections after a high amp run to make sure everything is a-ok.


I would say that you can touch as many terminals as you want as long as you are not charging the pack.

I was sitting on my battery pack while building the car and touching tens of terminals with my butt and I'm still alive


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

tj4fa said:


> Ok now you guys got me confused and worried about this non-isolated charger crap.


Eek.What have I started here.



> So are you saying I will receive a nasty (lethal) shock


The lethality of any shock depends on many things. Let's say potentially lethal.



> from my non-isolated 6KW PFC charger (I haven't installed yet) if I:
> 
> -Touch a battery terminal while charging?


Yes, you could.



> -Touch a battery terminal while charging and I have a ground fault to chassis (and my body touches chassis)?


Any EV battery will give you a shock under these conditions. The ground fault is not necessary for a shock from a non-isolated charger.



> -Touch a battery teminal with one hand while charging and somehow my body has a path to ground - let's say wet conductive shoes standing on ground?


Yes, this is the worst case.



> -Have an on-board generator powering the non-isolated charger while driving (both the mains power source and charger are floating)?


If the generator is floating, that's OK, there should be no shock, or only a minor tingle due to inevitable leakage and capacitance.

Note that non-isolated chargers are _never_ floating, by definition. They have a connection from (say) the negative output lead to a mains input (simplifying a lot). But the effect is much the same. In this scenario, the geberator output has no connection to earth. So touching a battery terminal under these conditions is the same as touching one generator output: there should be no shock, only a possble minor tingle.



> Is there a way to connect a non-isolated charger through a GFI or some other safety device to avoid electrocution and certain death?


Yes, you should always have a GFCI-like device in operation when using a non-isolated charger. Such devices are standard in Australia where we have 240 VAC mains. These devices won't prevent a shock - they take some time to act. But the shock should be quite short (say 5 ms), and that should prevent death and discomfort in most cases.

I had a dog chew through an extension cord a few years ago. I was annoyed because it disconnected the computer. But it likely saved the dog's life, or at least a really nasty shock. However, he did seem to learn right away not to chew power cords ever again....


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I would say that you can touch as many terminals as you want as long as you are not charging the pack.


I would not recommend touching both ends of a 144 VDC pack at the same time. 



> I was sitting on my battery pack while building the car and touching tens of terminals with my butt and I'm still alive


? Have you considered becoming a politician? You seem to have the thick hide for it 

Seriously, I don't think we should be advocating touching multiple terminals of a pack. You might think you know they are "only" 36 V apart, and therefore safe... but what if you are wrong?

In many packs, the individual cells are wired in a sort of weaving pattern, so adjacent cells could be say 12 cells apart in voltage. Depending on the voltage of the cells, that could still be shockable.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/charger.htm said:


> Isolated output. Necessity of the isolation is debated and I did use non-isolated charger before. It is quite safe as long as you remember every time working on your car what you can or cannot do. Well, after few years of ownership, and seeing how professionals make these things, using non-isolated charger is out of question, just like not wearing seat belts. We all drove without them before they got mandated, so apparently it is OK. Now, however you don't' even think if you want to use it- you just buckle up. Same here, isolation is not being discussed. I don't have not only non-isolated equipment, I don't even have any exposed terminals with line or battery voltage on them - like those power bars sticking out of cheap motor controllers. I don't want to think that safety in my EV is somehow compromised. You decide for yourself. With the pack isolated from the vehicle there is just no chance I can get line voltage on the vehicle chassis while charging.


This is why I prefer an isolated output, not so much just touching the pack but if for some reason something shorts a single lead of the battery to the chassis of the pack, there are issues. Granted he wants to cover every exposed lead including his controller and motor leads and sell pricey products, I'd just prefer to not have the chance of running into AC power through the pack or car chassis. With a DC system since the power can't go to ground with the touch of a single lead, I feel more comfortable but the thought of touching a single lead, or even just touching my car if one lead manages to get connect to my chassis, and getting zapped while charging isn't something I feel like dealing with. I'm a bit of an over-engineering nut on safety, especially with electrical voltages that I can feel when I touch them. Are the Zivan NG3 chargers isolated?


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> Are the Zivan NG3 chargers isolated?


Yes, and I believe all Zivans are.


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