# Other forums?



## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

In my 3yr? membership technology has leaped ahead and so have most posters. Can anyone point me to a forum where lead dinosaurs like myself can exchange tips about FLA's ?


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

The dinosaurs are still here, I think, you just have to dig them out . Starting a new thread with the "FLA" included in the name, may be a start.

Good luck.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

the EVDL?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dladd said:


> the EVDL?


Seconded.

I think plenty of us still use floodies, but the real dinos, er, old timers, I mean experienced experts will be on the EVDL.

There are plenty over there that love their floodies and are very distrustful of lithium in general while over here there may be one or two like that but the rest of us consider lead a malady -- a temporary condition to get us on the road while saving our pennies to go LiFePO4.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

dladd said:


> the EVDL?


Also known as the "96 volt list." There are some good people there, but I left it because I found it to increasingly be the "promote EVs list" and less the build EVs list (that, plus they shunned EV racers.)


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

But the Dinosaur's don't need the information on FLA batteries. They grew up on them and the young and those dinos that aren't going to go extinct will move forward to the future using the lithium cells. 

Why go backwards. That is not how to grow this movement.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Why go backwards you ask? a lack of $$$$$$$$$$. I am running a paddockbasher with an alltrax 7245 set on 90v with an 84v pack made up of recycled batteries. I would like to be greener than Kermit but it's not easy. I'll re-join the EVDL and see what i find. I think the reason I stopped using it was because of the format used by so many.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

poprock1 said:


> In my 3yr? membership technology has leaped ahead and so have most posters. Can anyone point me to a forum where lead dinosaurs like myself can exchange tips about FLA's ?


So what do you need to know? There are probably enough people here that know about lead batteries even though they do not use them plus those that do.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

dragonsgate said:


> So what do you need to know? There are probably enough people here that know about lead batteries even though they do not use them plus those that do.


I don't really need any info urgently; but in the past when I did ask questions about fla's some replies were condescending, giving me the impression that I should leave the room. Now I can feel at home in the 
" 96v " forum as part of the dinosaur herd. Thanks.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

poprock1 said:


> I don't really need any info urgently; but in the past when I did ask questions about fla's some replies were condescending, giving me the impression that I should leave the room. Now I can feel at home in the
> " 96v " forum as part of the dinosaur herd. Thanks.


Yes I know how you feel. I refrain from mentioning lead around here to avoid being sneered at. It is like a class system. THOSE THAT HAVE LITHIUM ! (and those that have lead.) I am among the first to agree lithium is far superior to lead but we are all working toward the same goal of building and driving an electric vehicle of some sort. Now with AC motor kits becoming more affordable it looks like an NEW social level is emerging. So for those that have larger budgets and a sweet ride be a little more tolerant towards us lesser beings. There! I feel like I came out of a closet or something.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dragonsgate said:


> It is like a class system. THOSE THAT HAVE LITHIUM ! (and those that have lead.)


Some people make it into that, but it's mostly a lack of understanding. When I was new I was annoyed at how hard some people pushed LiFePO4, but after the pain of having to gradually replace my first set of floodies and getting a taste of lithium I understand.

I'm still happy to talk about my experience with lead though. It's just painful to hear people wanting to buy fresh packs of lead, especially the high end ones that cost nearly what lithium does.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> after the pain of having to gradually replace my first set of floodies and getting a taste of lithium I understand.
> 
> I'm still happy to talk about my experience with lead though.


I imagine the weight factor is the first thing you notice. I would relate it to the way it felt after I would drag my camp trailer for hundreds of miles across the U.S. and then unhook at my destination. With out the trailer my car felt like it wanted to fly. How long did a lead pack last you and how much weight did you shave going to lithium?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

I haven't fully switched yet. I started with a 600 lbs pack of 12V marine floodies. They averaged about a year, but dropped one at a time, and Sam's was retarded with the warranty, so it was a huge pain. At first I thought it was just a few lemons and did lots of stuff to try and revive them but eventually realized they were all just dying. I started replacing them with 8V GC batts, and now have 12 of those and a couple 12V replacements to the original marines.

I'm also running a booster pack of CALBs to take half the load off the floodies, so right now I'm the heaviest ever. When I double the lithium and ditch the floodies I'll lose ~800 lbs and be my lightest ever.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Hey Poprock1, 

Go have a look at one of my old web sites. I have my first 64 Ghia EV posted along with a bunch of other stuff. It ended up being 96 volts which in my opinion is the minimum for any street driven EV conversion. I used Costco GC2 6 volt golf cart batteries. They were OK but did not last very long. I sold them to another wanting to build an EV. Best range was absolute max of 25 miles. My Ghia with the Synkromotive controller and 96 volt setup it did do 85 mph at one time when fully charged. Did 65 no problem but the sucker was heavy and over the max allowable safe limits of the car. 1020 lbs of lead in that sucker. 

http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw

Lots to look at on the site. Have a look under the albums and look under low n slow

Enjoy. 

Pete


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

My first conversion at the Bug-O-Rama in Sacramento.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm still planning to use SLAs for my tractor conversion, where the weight is actually an advantage. I can get 12V 12Ah SLAs for about $20 each, and 24 of them would give me 288V for a VFD DC link. Weight is about 300 lb for 3.5 kWh which will run a 3 HP tractor for one or two hours. Not bad for about $500 total. 

I'd also consider using 100 of these for a 14 kWh pack for a small truck or a car that could handle 1200 pounds. It might not be good for the freeway but would be OK for local errands and getting supplies and it might have a range of 20 miles. I could afford $2000 and another $1000 for motor and controller, and probably another $1000 for mechanical work, and at least I would have an EV rather than dreaming of a $15k conversion that still would not meet all my driving needs. I think it would give me a good learning experience and by the time the SLAs go bad maybe LiFePO4s will be under $0.25/Wh and I could afford a $5000 20 kWh pack, and by then gas might be $5/gallon and the economics will make more sense.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

TEV said:


> Copy Cat ???????????????????


That's how most spammers operate now. They copy a line from the thread so they sound on topic. Looks like he's already been removed.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> That's how most spammers operate now. They copy a line from the thread so they sound on topic. Looks like he's already been removed.


What is the point of doing that ?


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

Originally Posted by *dragonsgate*  
_It is like a class system. THOSE THAT HAVE LITHIUM ! (and those that have lead.)_
QUOTE from ziggythewiz["Some people make it into that, but it's mostly a lack of understanding." ]END QUOTE. I do not want to take over Poprock’s thread but this could be a way to help those with leadies switch over and maybe give a better understanding of things all around. QUOTE from ziggthewiz["I haven't fully switched yet. I started with a 600 lbs pack of 12V marine floodies. They averaged about a year, but dropped one at a time, and Sam's was retarded with the warranty, so it was a huge pain. At first I thought it was just a few lemons and did lots of stuff to try and revive them but eventually realized they were all just dying. I started replacing them with 8V GC batts, and now have 12 of those and a couple 12V replacements to the original marines.

I'm also running a booster pack of CALBs to take half the load off the floodies, so right now I'm the heaviest ever. When I double the lithium and ditch the floodies I'll lose ~800 lbs and be my lightest ever."]END QUOTE. Ziggy have you posted any pictures or schematics of your layout? Do you pull the leads down and then recharge the lead off the lithiums?


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

TEV said:


> What is the point of doing that ?


Usually it's accompanied by external pics or links that get blocked by the server, or just an external link in a sig that they're hoping you'll click.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

dragonsgate said:


> Ziggy have you posted any pictures or schematics of your layout? Do you pull the leads down and then recharge the lead off the lithiums?


Here's the thread on it: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74502

Basically it's my way of getting from lead to lithium without the $4-5k hit at once. I'm halfway there by spending ~$1000 at a time.

I discharge and charge the lithiums in parallel with the floodies, and a JLD404/Contactor disconnects them when full while the floodies go on to fill and do their gas cycle.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Usually it's accompanied by external pics or links that get blocked by the server, or just an external link in a sig that they're hoping you'll click.


That's just retarded 

Let them hope


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

TEV said:


> That's just retarded


Yes, it's quite sad but enough people are dumb enough to respond to SPAM to make it profitable.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

poprock1 said:


> I don't really need any info urgently; but in the past when I did ask questions about fla's some replies were condescending, giving me the impression that I should leave the room. Now I can feel at home in the
> " 96v " forum as part of the dinosaur herd. Thanks.


I wish that you would not leave. I do understand your frustration. While LiFePo folks are generally correct about the superior features of Lithium, they totally disregard capitalization costs. In short, there are few avenues for starting with lithium for $1200-$1500. When asked how to do this, the response is often "save more money." Not good.

I think Ziggy is on the right track with the hybrid packs. It softens the capitalization costs. 

ga2500ev


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> they totally disregard capitalization costs.


Not so. We are all very very very much aware of the costs. 



> In short, there are few avenues for starting with lithium for $1200-$1500. When asked how to do this, the response is often "save more money." Not good.


True, there are few avenues besides saving the money now rather than spend what you already have then have to save it all over again when you realize you screwed up and did not listen and go for the lithium from the start. Saving and starting with the better IS good. Saves you money and saves you wasting time with heavy low life lead. If however you MUST disregard our trying to SAVE you some money then we will still help you spend your money and help you build your lead sled. 

Pete


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

ga2500ev said:


> I wish that you would not leave. I do understand your frustration.
> ga2500ev


No intention of leaving, I have given the wrong impression. This site has been the guide to my progress in the Ev arena and has saved time and money, and perhaps my life with it's safety posts. It has been good to see the involvement of all the lead slugs . Thanks to all.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Not so. We are all very very very much aware of the costs.


Not total cost, capitalization cost. Lithium is a winner in total cost because it has a much longer cycle life than FLA, has better power density, and is lighter. No issue with that. But it costs significantly more to get into the game. This issue is that typically Lithium cells cannot be driven at high C rates, so it requires higher capacity cells is order to get started. You cannot build a starter pack with 40 Ahr cells because you can only drive them 2C-5C max draw. So EV Lithium packs are always built with 90-160 Ah cells at $100+ per cell. The other problem is that Lithium is 3.3-3.6V per cell. So you need 36-40 cells to get into the game. So you get the double whammy of needing a lot of expensive cells to get into Lithium.

FLA such as group 29 12V deep cycle marine batteries are awful. They are heavy. They lose a lot of energy when deeply drawn. They have low cycle life. But the advantage is the cost of capitalization. You only need 10 or 11 batteries and they are less than $100 each. Same can be said for GC8 or GC6 batteries too.

If money capitalization is the primary consideration, then lithium is a non starter. This is what poprock1 is complaining about. It makes no sense to wait 4 years to capitalize a lithium pack if your budget is $1200/year when you can buy 4 FLA packs once a year on the same budget and ride now.



> True, there are few avenues besides saving the money now rather than spend what you already have then have to save it all over again when you realize you screwed up and did not listen and go for the lithium from the start. Saving and starting with the better IS good. Saves you money and saves you wasting time with heavy low life lead. If however you MUST disregard our trying to SAVE you some money then we will still help you spend your money and help you build your lead sled.
> 
> Pete


And this is why he wants to leave. It's not a matter of listening or not listening. It's not a matter of spending more or less total money. It is a matter of working with the capital budget you have, or deciding to delay having an EV at all until you can capitalize lithium.

The specific remedy that is used by ordinary folks for other capital cost items, such as houses and new cars, simply isn't available for Lithium battery packs. Specifically that is getting a long term low to moderate interest loan to capitalize the cost. We don't ask people with moderate incomes to live outside until they have saved enough money to buy a house. It just doesn't make sense. They rent while they save. But when you state that it's worth not having an EV right now in order to save enough to get a lithium battery pack is asking exactly that from folks like myself and poprock1, and anyone else that looks to FLA to get started.

Ziggy's hybrid serves as a transition between the two. A hybrid of FLA with a low Ah lithium pack facilitates doing low cost capitalization while having a venue to get out of FLA eventually. As Ziggy pointed out in a earlier post, the hybrid allows one to buy Lithium in $1000 increments backed with FLA with the two supporting one another during the transistion. Yes you get the worst of both (very heavy). But you get the best of both too. Eventually his Lithium booster packs simply becomes the only pack.

I have problems with the attitude of "Lithium or bust". That's why poprock1 wants to leave. What would be helpful to be more like Ziggy by understanding that cost (specifically the cost of capitalization) is an overriding concern from some of us, and find ways that we can integrate Lithium into our proposed setups without having the break the bank to do so.

ga2500ev


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

poprock1 said:


> No intention of leaving, I have given the wrong impression. This site has been the guide to my progress in the Ev arena and has saved time and money, and perhaps my life with it's safety posts. It has been good to see the involvement of all the lead slugs . Thanks to all.


Good to know. When you get a chance, take a careful read of Ziggy's thread on parallel hybrid packs with FLA and lithium sharing the load. It opens up a way to get into lithium without having to make a total commitment to it. In fact I'm going to ask a question over there now.

ga2500ev


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

ga2500ev said:


> Good to know. When you get a chance, take a careful read of Ziggy's thread on parallel hybrid packs with FLA and lithium sharing the load. It opens up a way to get into lithium without having to make a total commitment to it. In fact I'm going to ask a question over there now.
> 
> ga2500ev


If I ever do get lithiums it will be in one shot but I think Ziggy is on to something that could work for others. To everybody that has lithium batteries in their vehicle I say congratulations and I am a bit envious. I am on my third pack of eighteen T875 eight volt lead acid batteries since Nov.1999 at a just under $5,500 total. The car curbs at 2760 pounds. That is about 140 under GVR. With two people the car is 3100 pounds depending on how many doughnuts we ate that week. I put modified 131 fiat springs on and beef up shock mountings and have had no suspension problems all this time. Back to the battery cost. If I had lithium batteries from the start I most likely would be needing new batteries about now and it is any bodies guess how much they would have degraded in almost 14 years. The longest I have been able to ascertain is four years being the longest anyone on this forum has been running lithium batteries. Before certain people get their panties in a bunch I am not talking down lithiums I am just stating the facts as I know them and am ready to consider any other data that is presented in a level headed way. I know I am rambling so to I will wind down by saying that lead has served me well and the only miner problem I had was with a battery post that was immediately taken care of that day by the battery outfitter 20 miles from my home.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

ga2500ev said:


> Not total cost, capitalization cost. Lithium is a winner in total cost because it has a much longer cycle life than FLA, has better power density, and is lighter.


Another option to consider is financing. The interest on a personal loan would eaily be less than the difference between lead and lithium operating costs.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I think it would be better to move this discussion to another thread with a more descriptive title of "Lithium vs Lead" (and I think there already are a few). But on the topic of "Other forums", I want to know exactly what is the "EVDL" list? I see that it consists of posts imported from other forums but there does not seem to be much activity. I'm also unsure of the meaning of "EVDL", and I am guessing that the DL could be "Disabled List" or "DownLoad". 

And I don't really see the reason for it, as one may either provide links to the "Other forums", or simply post there. What may be even more helpful is a list of the URLs for "Other forums" and a brief description of their purpose and content. I am somewhat familiar with "Endless Sphere" and "AEVA", and "EVTV", but I'm sure there are many others.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

PStechPaul said:


> I think it would be better to move this discussion to another thread with a more descriptive title of "Lithium vs Lead" (and I think there already are a few). But on the topic of "Other forums", I want to know exactly what is the "EVDL" list? I see that it consists of posts imported from other forums but there does not seem to be much activity. I'm also unsure of the meaning of "EVDL", and I am guessing that the DL could be "Disabled List" or "DownLoad".
> 
> And I don't really see the reason for it, as one may either provide links to the "Other forums", or simply post there. What may be even more helpful is a list of the URLs for "Other forums" and a brief description of their purpose and content. I am somewhat familiar with "Endless Sphere" and "AEVA", and "EVTV", but I'm sure there are many others.



It is the Electric Vehicle Discussion List and it is an OLD list server and a real pain in the ass if you sign up. They send bazillions of emails and at one point it was a great EV web site to learn about building your own EV. That is where I started but it became an old guys BS forum and almost nothing was ever discussed about building and helping new folks build them. They are all the old lead acid guys that swear that you can go 60 to 120 miles on a lead acid pack and it is just utter bull shit unless you claim that 60 to 120 miles at 30 mph with no stops or hills. You know, drive your bloated golf cart for what was perceived to be 120 miles. Guess they never really had a working speedo. Anyway the list is nothing anymore and I did not renew my subscription. I have looked recently but it is mostly stuff added by bruceme from the internet and mostly nothing to do with DIY. It is a dead old list and list server. 

Don't bother unless you absolutely need to know some information about lead acid.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ga2500ev

I am fully aware of the costs no matter how you try to spin it. Getting all your cells for your pack at once is the absolute best way to do it. You really don't want a bunch of old cells mixed with new ones. You want it to be a matched balanced pack. No different with lead acid. Now if you can find used lithium from the same batch and are still matched then you have a good way to get into lithium. I am fully aware of costs and I am quite frugal when it comes to converting to an EV at home. My lithium cells were purchased USED. My motors were purchased used. My adaptor and controller were new. My cables were new. My car was used. 

Or you can, if you can afford it, just go buy one and make normal monthly payments like everyone does when they buy a new car. But building one at home is not going to really save you much from one you buy new. If you do your DIY conversion right it will still be $20 or more. That includes lead acid builds. If you look a the EVALBUM site and go through the many vehicles you will see multitudes of builds in the $20k or more range and none have lithium. 

So you can save your money and be patient and do your build right and clean then when you do have the funds saved you can go buy a pack of batteries. If there is absolutely no way to get lithium and are acceptable with only 20 mile ranges you can go with lead. But you can do like a small lithium pack that will give you 35 miles and only cost a bit over lead acid and give you many more years of service than lead. 

Lithium is attainable with some patience and some fancy foot work buying and selling to make more money like I do to fund my EV. 

Too many are just too damn impatient. I was and learned an expensive lesson. Lead SUCKS and I would have done better but my build was first done when lithium was just becoming available and I did not yet have that saved. I was impatient but believed the BS about lead being a good choice. Lead is dead. 

Pete 

Move forward. Don't be so impatient. With some patience and some frugality you can build a decent lithium powered little EV.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> Or you can, if you can afford it, just go buy one and make normal monthly payments like everyone does when they buy a new car. But building one at home is not going to really save you much from one you buy new. If you do your DIY conversion right it will still be $20 or more. That includes lead acid builds. If you look a the EVALBUM site and go through the many vehicles you will see multitudes of builds in the $20k or more range and none have lithium.


I realize you think you're on a roll here or something, but get real Pete. You have to try really hard to make a lead conversion cost $20,000. Of the first 10 $20k builds that show up on an EVALBUM search they're all using lithium except for one...a huge van.

And yes, a DIY build will save money over buying new EVERY DAY. Buyer's remorse doesn't change that.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

Over the same time frame, a comparable lead acid pack will cost about 2-4x more than a LiFePO4 pack. Go figure. So yes, it's indeed a "class" thing. Those who can afford lead acid.

I wouldn't do an EV conversion if I only plan to drive it 3-4 years. It's an investment that will pay itself back while driving past gas stations. Take a loan to buy a decent battery pack if you plan to drive your car. If not, don't do the conversion, an old gas guzzler will be cheaper.

But of course you can always compare oranges to apples.

There are people who don't want to use anything "new" even if it was better in every single regard. It's their problem.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I realize you think you're on a roll here or something, but get real Pete. You have to try really hard to make a lead conversion cost $20,000. Of the first 10 $20k builds that show up on an EVALBUM search they're all using lithium except for one...a huge van.
> 
> And yes, a DIY build will save money over buying new EVERY DAY. Buyer's remorse doesn't change that.



Apparently you have not been through all the builds on the list either. Many were done prior to LITHIUM coming to the market that were well over $20K to build. I have been around for some time now and have done my research. I am fully aware that you can convert for under $5k including the motor and controller and car.

Roll. I can assure you your'e not on a roll. 

Actually you don't have to try hard at all to spend $20 on a lead acid build. Do your homework.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Go with lithium. Since your already willing to do lead you can surely afford $3800 for a nice 120 volt pack of 100 AH TS cells that will do way better than your lead and you will get more distance and longer life. Don't let the lead heads keep you down. Get the lead out of your beast or better yet don't put it in from the start. 

No need to be on a roll if you do your homework. I know some are really trying hard to keep the lead but in truth the lead needs to just go away. There is better and you can afford it more than you know. 

I know of a place where you can get 100ah TS for $100 a pop. 38 for a 120 volt system. Less for 96 volts. You want 96 volts? $3k for long life cells does not break the bank. Be patient and do your conversion right. 

Pete


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Ziggythewiz said:


> I realize you think you're on a roll here or something, but get real Pete. You have to try really hard to make a lead conversion cost $20,000. Of the first 10 $20k builds that show up on an EVALBUM search they're all using lithium except for one...a huge van.
> 
> And yes, a DIY build will save money over buying new EVERY DAY. Buyer's remorse doesn't change that.


Good luck building a comparable EV like my Leaf for LESS. A decent well built conversion will cost you a considerable chunk of cash. Ever wonder why I purchased an EV? I can't build one as good for LESS. I also don't have $40 waiting for me to dump it out. I do want a decent EV. Not some hack. My Roadster will only be for fun and my Bus will be a business venture to haul stuff. A work vehicle. No creature comforts needed. 

Still it will be expensive. I must do a bunch of buying and selling to fund the projects.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Just to let you know, I have 60 100AH cells I purchased used for a total of $3600 bucks. They are just magic. Well beyond even good lead acid batteries.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I have a somewhat different opinion than Pete does of the EVDL. Yes, it's mostly newswires these days, but a simple filter takes care of that. In my experience, when I have had a tough question and asked it both here and on the EVDL, I've gotten much more in depth and quality answers over there. Obviously they are very different, one is a forum and one is email based. They lend themselves to different things. This is a great place to kill some time, see pretty pictures and keep a build log, but in my experience the level of real deep EV knowledge is better on the EVDL than here. I've gotten some truly good long in depth help from folks there, mostly via private email after asking a question. I think folks here are less likely to offer than kind of in depth help because there are so many 'forum snipers' who just crap on ideas they don't agree with. With the EVDL, since it's email based, it's easier to go offline with discussions.

Anyway, that's my .02, I like both and participate in both, and find they both have their uses.

As to lead vs. lithium, I can't help much. I jumped right in head first with lithium and don't have any experience with lead (other than as a house battery bank in my RV...).


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

dladd said:


> I think folks here are less likely to offer than kind of in depth help because there are so many 'forum snipers' who just crap on ideas they don't agree with.


It just had to be said one more time.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

dladd,

I don't disagree with the level of knowledge on EVDL. I just don't like it because it became a news wire and just has nothing of real value. Some is kinda cool but still no real right now value. I rarely heard of any good teaching and it became very far between. Yes you can if your willing, make a filter to dig out some but you still have to wade through tons of crap. I am more than willing to help but piss on the BS around here. I like some of this forum. It at least has people actually doing builds and new coming in to learn about building. There will always be 20 different ideas for each person coming in needing to learn. I had no different an experience. I also got my first lessons at EVDL when you could actually get some lessons on building an EV. Most have either gone or just quite and many are still just jabbering about what ever. Not much about EV's except the news wire junk. I remember that the person who put up the new wire was to only put up a bit because it became just full but that lasted a short time and it is nearly all just news wire. Too bad. But good things do come to an end if they don't really move forward. They got kinda stuck in the past with the lead stuff. They are still around and I respect their knowledge but it does little good if no one is learning from them. 

I respect the knowledge of those here as well. 

Pete


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

onegreenev; Too many are just too damn impatient. I was and learned an expensive lesson. Lead SUCKS and I would have done better but my build was first done when lithium was just becoming available and I did not yet have that saved. I was impatient but believed the BS about lead being a good choice. Lead is dead.[/QUOTE said:


> When I was in the Navy there was a saying that could apply to electric cars and battery choice. “Bad sex is better than no sex.”


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Never heard that one. 

1976 to 79 USS Constellation.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> ga2500ev
> 
> I am fully aware of the costs no matter how you try to spin it. Getting all your cells for your pack at once is the absolute best way to do it. You really don't want a bunch of old cells mixed with new ones. You want it to be a matched balanced pack. No different with lead acid. Now if you can find used lithium from the same batch and are still matched then you have a good way to get into lithium. I am fully aware of costs and I am quite frugal when it comes to converting to an EV at home. My lithium cells were purchased USED. My motors were purchased used. My adaptor and controller were new. My cables were new. My car was used.
> 
> Or you can, if you can afford it, just go buy one and make normal monthly payments like everyone does when they buy a new car. But building one at home is not going to really save you much from one you buy new. If you do your DIY conversion right it will still be $20 or more. That includes lead acid builds. If you look a the EVALBUM site and go through the many vehicles you will see multitudes of builds in the $20k or more range and none have lithium.


All of the above is a complete non starter for me. From the beginning, my handle has been my budget: $2500. I'm not going to spend $20K on a gas car. So there's no way I'm going to do it for an EV.

The best way for me, and from the sound of it to the OP, cost and only cost is the overriding concern. To me personally, it makes absolutely no sense to break the bank getting into an EV. I'm trying to get into the EV game for cost control as electricity is cont contained, while gas is not.

Just to give you a sense, let me explain my current gas setup. I'm currently in a 1991 Infiniti G20 that I paid $600 for and did $600 in repairs. It gets 25 MPG average and cost $40 a tank to fill up once a week or so. I expect to drive it for two or three years, throw it away and buy something similar then, at around the same price point. I've purchased the last three daily drivers I've used over the last 5 years for a grand total of $1000 including this current vehicle.

So please understand when you say that it's going to cost $20K to get going with an EV, there's no discussion to have.

EV's can be done the same. I purchased a 1994 Geo Metro 5 speed with a blown engine for $200. I also got a used FB4001 8in motor from a electric airport moving vehicle for $600. I can get a pallet of AGM U1 12V35AH used for $25 each. For $800 I can put together a [email protected] pack that can get going at a decent clip. The point is that it simply doesn't take $20K to get going.



> So you can save your money and be patient and do your build right and clean then when you do have the funds saved you can go buy a pack of batteries. If there is absolutely no way to get lithium and are acceptable with only 20 mile ranges you can go with lead. But you can do like a small lithium pack that will give you 35 miles and only cost a bit over lead acid and give you many more years of service than lead.


And this line of thinking is precisely why poprock1 started this thread. I'm really happy that you have both the funds and the ability to throw unlimited dollars at your EV projects. My funds have other places to be. My whole point is that when you have limited funds you have to find ways to make do. And simply being dismissive of other options (like using lead) will steer this forum from DIY hobbyist trying to put together EVs on ingenuity to a group that talks about how great their Leafs drive.



> Lithium is attainable with some patience and some fancy foot work buying and selling to make more money like I do to fund my EV.
> 
> Too many are just too damn impatient. I was and learned an expensive lesson. Lead SUCKS and I would have done better but my build was first done when lithium was just becoming available and I did not yet have that saved. I was impatient but believed the BS about lead being a good choice. Lead is dead.
> 
> ...


Patience is not my issue. I've been on this forum for nearly 5 years. I've learned quite a bit. I'm being patient because I'm really doing it DIY. I'm doing my own adapter plate. I'm makeshifting my own coupler. I'm designing and building my own controller. This ongoing project is actually a hobby for me. But when I came in, just as I'm doing now, cost and only cost is the overriding driver of the project. 

Everyone here always talks about the "EV grin". I understand it, even them I have not yet gotten to experience it with my own project yet. I know I understand the limitation of lead. But I'm trying to get across to you that both having to wait and save for Lithium, and then the possibility of smoking a very expensive Lithium pack on the first go both seem like very bad ideas. Never in any of our discussions have you ever explained how one can have Lithium "training wheels". It's always been "invest at least $4000 in a Lithium pack, it's worth it."

Ziggy has introduced training wheels. Even he admits that the only thing better than a hybrid lithium pack is a full lithium pack. It isn't perfect. Never said it was. But it open the possibility of having a bridge instead of just closing ones eyes and taking a leap across the canyon on faith.

As it was in 2008 when I joined here, as it is now, there is still no way to get out of the driveway with lithium without purchasing a minimum of 30 100 Ah cells. The A123 pouches have no reliable sources and have serious problems in terms of building packs. The cylindrical cells are challenging to work with too. Both will only give you a tiny pack unless you purchase a ton of cells (150 to 180) which puts one right back at the same price point.

Lead is not truly dead until Lithium really competes with lead on a $/Ah basis. As long as GC8's and HM29's can be loaded into back seats and trunks, no amount of preaching that you "really understand the cost" is going to dissuade some loading them.

ga2500ev


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Lead works, no doubt but its no longer a GOOD choice. If one must use lead I will be happy to help. There is plenty of easy to gather information on what kind to use and how to care for them. Its not rocket science. Hell in a few paragraphs one could cover most of what is needed. Right? Motors and controllers and all that other stuff is pretty much the same no matter what battery you use. Personally, Lead Sucks. Heavy, dirty difficult to maintain and short life. But beyond that I can at least know for at least a year you can have about a 20 mile range. After that all bets are off. 

Pete


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

ga2500ev said:


> All of the above is a complete non starter for me. From the beginning, my handle has been my budget: $2500. I'm not going to spend $20K on a gas car. So there's no way I'm going to do it for an EV.


Long story short, you can't get ANY car for $2500. You need to include maintenance and fuel to the price and then compare it to your budget. If you do this, you'll notice that the LiFePO4 is the cheapest. But if you have extra money around to spend in lead and want to pay premium for a car that's worse in all aspects than the cheaper one, go for it! We won't stop you.

What you CAN get is a decent lithium pack for $5000 that will save you a lot in gas prices and maintenance for next 10 years, or more.

BTW, note that a small lead pack takes a big hit from the Peukert effect compared to a larger lead pack. You end up below 5 mile range in a few years. Lead pack needs to be "oversized" in order to work. This is why lead acid is typically used in stationary applications where the large weight of an oversized pack is not a problem.

If you simply don't have immediate cash right now and you are not ready to save or get a loan, I wouldn't recommend spending $2500 in a piece of useless toy that will make you spend $2500 more every few years. Instead, get a very cheap gas vehicle, try to pick a small one with high mileage. Good luck.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Even my first conversion was about $3200. Low cost roller. 64 VW Ghia $1200. GE motor with built in adaptor. $600. Controller 72 volt 550 amp GolfTech with contactor. $40 bucks. New 6 volt GC2 golf car batteries. $820 bucks not including core. Cable a few hundred. Charger $150 36 volt 30 amp Lester converted to output 72 volts and 15 amp. An assortment of odds and ends. Volt and Amp meters. Then I upped the ante and jumped to 96 volts and a new Synkromotive controller and new charger. Bumped the price. Don't quote the prices given but in the end it went higher than that. I still have all my original components except the cool lester charger. Need the information on converting an old manual 36 volt lester with timer to a 72 volt charger. Worked great. I still have my original motor. With 96 volts and the Synkromotive controller it pushed that sucker with a freeway flyer tranny to 85 mph. It did require a good fully charged pack and it only lasted a short time. Nasty voltage sag. 

So with a free car in good condition and a new lead pack you can have a reasonable short range electric car that is fun to drive if done right. Lots of transmissions and stock tires suck that distance pretty badly. For the best possible distances you WILL need LRR tires.

I'd love to help someone set on building a GOOD low cost EV. It can be done being frugal and picky. Lead won't last long. Id rather see lithium. Some lead is cheaper than the top of the line lead. But lasts about as long as it cost. Real low life but even the best of lead is short lived. 

I disagree. You can get a decent car for under $2500. Not and easy task but with patience and luck you can. Getting the parts to convert it with is the harder part.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

I would recommend a bare minimum of 96 volts and 600 amps. Lead or lithium or what ever you have I guess will have to do. Be sure you have a good charger. No need for fancy stuff. Good cables and lugs. Good low cost forklift motor in good condition. Being that most don't know what good condition really is it will be hard and many times one spends more than expected only to find out its not really good or usable. This comes from experience and learning the hard way. 

Don't buy a rust bucket. 

Restoring a car is hell to pay in price. Don't think you can restore for next to nothing. It aint cheap to restore.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Lead works, no doubt but its no longer a GOOD choice. If one must use lead I will be happy to help. There is plenty of easy to gather information on what kind to use and how to care for them. Its not rocket science. Hell in a few paragraphs one could cover most of what is needed. Right? Motors and controllers and all that other stuff is pretty much the same no matter what battery you use. Personally, Lead Sucks. Heavy, dirty difficult to maintain and short life. But beyond that I can at least know for at least a year you can have about a 20 mile range. After that all bets are off.
> 
> Pete


Lead sucks. I'll make a note of that... 

I still think that you've only been reading parts of Ziggy's posts on the hybrid pack setup. It's worth discussing because it is an actual way for those of us mired in lead to escape. Let's take on your items one at a time:

1) Heavy. Granted
2) Dirty/difficult to maintain. I guess I don't see it because I've been working with SLA/AGMs. Just a heavy cube. I can understand that watering can be an issue.

3) Short life/Short range. I wanted to take these two together because these are the two critical items that Ziggy has been trying to mitigate. Both of these are triggered by a large current discharge which kicks in the Peukert effect. Simply put you cannot get all the energy out of the lead battery when you draw heavy currents from it. So you get to a deep discharge quickly which shortens life and range. Typically the solution is adding more batteries either in parallel or upping the voltage. Both adds more weight though.

The parallel Lithium booster can combat both effects without adding too much more weight. Since as we all agree Lithium is better, it'll contribute more energy than lead to the controller/motor when paralleled with lead. That means that the lead pack has less current draw. So the Peukert effect is lessened, improving the range because more energy can be drawn from the same lead pack. In addition, when coasting or stopped, the lead will recharge the Lithium booster, and at a low enough current draw that again the Peukert effect is minimized. Both the additional energy of the Lithium pack plus the lessened current draw will raise the DoD of the the lead for the same trip. So by adding the Lithium booster, both the range will improve, and the life of the lead pack extended.

Now to the other side. Since the lithium isn't going it alone, it neither has to contribute all the current to the controller/motor, nor does it have to have the entire energy capacity for the car. That means that you can actually use smaller cells than a Lithium only pack. Last I checked smaller cells cost less.

Finally as one gains more cash, due to the "massive savings on gas costs!", the lithium booster can be enhance, further extending the range and possibly getting to the point of eliminating the lead completely.

The 100 Ahr cells represent both bulk energy storage and spot energy delivery. With the hybrid, the lead serves as bulk energy storage, while the lithium booster provides the spot energy delivery, protecting the lead from deep current draws in the process.

I can see putting together a hybrid for $1500. It extends the lead, starts with lithium, has a starting cost I can live with, and has a way to continue migrating to a lithium only endpoint without having to commit to it from the beginning.

So while everything about lead can be described in a few paragraphs, the hybrid is a much more interesting discussion. It of course has its downsides in weight and complexity. But it also bring benefits to the table too.

ga2500ev


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

Siwastaja said:


> Long story short, you can't get ANY car for $2500. You need to include maintenance and fuel to the price and then compare it to your budget. If you do this, you'll notice that the LiFePO4 is the cheapest. But if you have extra money around to spend in lead and want to pay premium for a car that's worse in all aspects than the cheaper one, go for it! We won't stop you.


I don't think you read my post. I'm currently driving a car that cost me $1200 USD total plus some home mechanics repairs done DIY. Only maintenance is oil changes and tires, which I purchase used. Gas is the only ongoing expense and averages $120/month.

My last car was $100 to pull out of a driveway +$200 in repairs. It can be done, but it takes some effort to do.



> What you CAN get is a decent lithium pack for $5000 that will save you a lot in gas prices and maintenance for next 10 years, or more.


Non starter. As I pointed out I have less than $1000 invested in my proposed setup. It makes little sense to invest 5 times that amount in batteries.

And despite everyone's objections, it's still possible to get 12 brand new GC8 8V lead batteries for about $1200. Puts me in right at my budget.


> BTW, note that a small lead pack takes a big hit from the Peukert effect compared to a larger lead pack. You end up below 5 mile range in a few years. Lead pack needs to be "oversized" in order to work. This is why lead acid is typically used in stationary applications where the large weight of an oversized pack is not a problem.


See my post above on Ziggy's hybrid setup. It's specifically designed with the targeted use of Lithium to combat the Peukert effect. In his setup the Lithium booster pack serves as a supercapacitor for the lead pack, giving high current bursts of power, while recharging from the bulk lead pack between bursts. Lowers the current draw against the lead. Lowers the Peukert effect. Raises the DoD on the lead pack. Extends range. Extends life. Doesn't require $5000 in Lithium initially to implement. Go take a read of his thread. A small lithium pack facilitates "oversizing" the small lead pack so that both function better than either alone.



> If you simply don't have immediate cash right now and you are not ready to save or get a loan, I wouldn't recommend spending $2500 in a piece of useless toy that will make you spend $2500 more every few years. Instead, get a very cheap gas vehicle, try to pick a small one with high mileage. Good luck.


Once again I repeat that his is a hobby for me. The low price point is a part of the challenge. It's a test platform for EV design ideas, like Ziggy's hybrid pack. I'm certainly not going to spend $20K on it.

ga2500ev


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Even my first conversion was about $3200. Low cost roller. 64 VW Ghia $1200. GE motor with built in adaptor. $600. Controller 72 volt 550 amp GolfTech with contactor. $40 bucks. New 6 volt GC2 golf car batteries. $820 bucks not including core. Cable a few hundred. Charger $150 36 volt 30 amp Lester converted to output 72 volts and 15 amp. An assortment of odds and ends. Volt and Amp meters.


Lower cost conversions can be done. We've seen two or three examples with Paul's ultracheap VW conversion and the ForkenSwift.

My point is that a low cost conversion that can be duplicated will draw more folks in. And once someone has a working setup, then...

Then I upped the ante and jumped to 96 volts and a new Synkromotive controller and new charger. Bumped the price. Don't quote the prices given but in the end it went higher than that. I still have all my original components except the cool lester charger. Need the information on converting an old manual 36 volt lester with timer to a 72 volt charger. Worked great. I still have my original motor. With 96 volts and the Synkromotive controller it pushed that sucker with a freeway flyer tranny to 85 mph. [/quote]

...folks would be willing to upgrade.


> It did require a good fully charged pack and it only lasted a short time. Nasty voltage sag.


BTW voltage sag is another area where using a hybrid helps. Lithium provides a very stiff voltage floor, lessening the overall sag.



> So with a free car in good condition and a new lead pack you can have a reasonable short range electric car that is fun to drive if done right. Lots of transmissions and stock tires suck that distance pretty badly. For the best possible distances you WILL need LRR tires.
> 
> I'd love to help someone set on building a GOOD low cost EV. It can be done being frugal and picky. Lead won't last long. Id rather see lithium. Some lead is cheaper than the top of the line lead. But lasts about as long as it cost. Real low life but even the best of lead is short lived.
> 
> I disagree. You can get a decent car for under $2500. Not and easy task but with patience and luck you can. Getting the parts to convert it with is the harder part.


But it'll be tough to do if Lithium doubles or triples the initial price. Think about the pack in three phases. Initial: lead only. Intermediate: Lead/Lithium hybrid. Final: Lithium only. The initial pack will be limited. The hybrid will improve the range and performance. The final pack is the goal. While the final cost will be closer to the $5000/$6000 range, there should be a usable vehicle during the entire process.

ga2500ev


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

> Lower cost conversions can be done. We've seen two or three examples with Paul's ultracheap VW conversion and the ForkenSwift.
> 
> My point is that a low cost conversion that can be duplicated will draw more folks in. And once someone has a working setup, then...


Actually no. Folks really don't want a CHEAP conversion. They want a GOOD low cost one. 
I only see those two cars you referenced as only a way for folks to fuel their belief that GOOD low cost vehicles can be built. 

I can reference some crap too that is low cost. Forkenswift is not on the radar at all. 



> BTW voltage sag is another area where using a hybrid helps. Lithium provides a very stiff voltage floor, lessening the overall sag.


Not nearly as much as you might think. Some yes. I don't doubt that because lithium is better than lead. I know how it works. But the issue is you buy lead then some lithium then you go out and spend again for another full lithium pack when you could have from the beginning purchased a good set of lithium for a reasonable price. Even used you might have to save but you sure save more waiting and being patient and refining your other parts while you wait. Why spend the money TWICE when you could have done so ONCE. 

Lithium really does take a toll up front price but make no illusion about it, it is cheaper in the end and that is money in the bank. 

I have nor do the vendors have trouble with you spending your money twice. Keeps them in business. I once believed what you do about all this. Truly, if you want a good vehicle you need to bite the bullet and go with the best. 

If you do go LOW Cost please don't build a Piece of Crap. Most that are done under $2500 are just garbage. You will come to see the light. 

Dont get me wrong, I am all for being frugal and picky and I do believe you can build a conversion for a respectable price under $5k using lead. Much less the quality just drops. The other thing is to build one you'd be truly proud to show off. Do you really want the public and those who you want to draw to converting their own to see a junky old heavy golf cart or a conversion they can do that will allow them to commute for a decent cost have a reliable vehicle or one that requires lots of mucking to keep going and one that can actually go a decent range reliably and with decent speeds too and be safe and not a heavy unsafe tank. 

I once believed that a lead conversion could let you drive a cool reliable 40 plus miles at freeway speeds so you could commute to work and back. Heck at those distances you could drive to work and charge there and then come home. 

Make no bones about it, its total bull shit. Lead is not reliable and not maintenance free and they have crappy life. It is not a truly viable way to build. An experiment at best. I could never even drive one way to my place of employment to even charge to get home. According to the masters on EVDL and those that had posted on the EVAlbum I must have done something wrong. Well actually not at all. It was actually a very good build and done well. The lead sled was not up to the task as reported countless times. Even today some still say you can go 60 plus miles on lead. Bull Shit. Not at normal driving speeds around town or the freeway. To be viable I need to be reliable to 60 miles at freeway speeds and to be able to enter into and out of traffic with the rest of the vehicles. 

Sorry but my poor first conversion even at its best was no better than a golf cart. Looked cool but just did not do the work needed. 


I say all this out of experience. You can choose to heed or ignore. 


Pete


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## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

________________________________________________________
My first EV was an old Jet Electrica. Jet was in buisness for a few years and made a few thousand conversions. Mine was based on a 1982 Ford Escort.

In 96 volt form, with a new pack, it got about 40 miles to a charge.

I drove this car every day for 14 months with no real issues, but you knew you were in a heavy vehicle and planned for it. Braking was adequate, but panics were scary.

18 miles to work and 18 miles home, with a top off while at work and full charge over night.

I had no real problems with it if I serviced the batteries once per month, cleaning any straps and adding water.

It was a GREAT first "learner" EV that I out grew. 

I later helped a friend to convert one to a 120 volt system and a 500 Amp controller, which gave a decent increase in performance and mileage, but brought home the weight problem. 

My third EV was planned for Lead acid batteries purely due to budget constraints, but a fortunate happenstance allowed me to change away from lead. 

After experiencing the difference, I recommend lithium if possible, but I still recommend a learner car on lead if you can not swing it. 

As long as you understand that a lead car will be about 1/3 rd of a lithium car in pack life expectancy and long life performance. 

Miz


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

ga2500ev,

I have been reading and following his hybrid pack. I think its a great thing. Complex which I mentioned before and not a simple easy to follow no muss no fuss affair. It works if you work at it. But give it to someone that has no clue and it ends right there. It is nothing but an experiment. A cool one and I am actually glad someone actually took the time to do it because it shows it is a complex affair. That is what is needed. So in reality it is not a viable option. Just because you can make something work does not mean it is a viable option. But you can rest assured we are watching. Watching an experiment is perfect. Listening to someone boast without doing is just crap. That is why we like this. Its a science project. Gotta love science projects. Its something new. But not ready for prime time. It needs to be a no muss no fuss affair that consistently works and is reliable and requires no real user input. Just plug it in walk away and drive when ready. Yes, even for a DIY thing it is needed. Folks want to know they can convert and just be happy. They don't want something they have to work hard at. Some are happy with tinkering. Many who are interested are not. To get those involved you must have a viable DIY strategy to make it an easy conversion and one that is reliable, trouble free and no muss and no fuss. One that can be plugged in, walk away and drive when ready. Simple and safe. 

As for the dirty messy issue, it really is aimed at the flooded types of batteries. Not so with the sealed batteries. I went with flooded because you can refill and the life is actually better. The others are just cleaner.


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> Actually no. Folks really don't want a CHEAP conversion. They want a GOOD low cost one.
> I only see those two cars you referenced as only a way for folks to fuel their belief that GOOD low cost vehicles can be built.
> 
> I can reference some crap too that is low cost. Forkenswift is not on the radar at all.


The old adage is true: good, cheap, now: pick any two.

I want a 2013 Leaf for my $2500 budget. Ain't gonna happen.

I think that you miss the psychology of being able to get started without having to break the bank. For new people, all of this is an unknown. Many are unwilling, or unable to invest thousands of dollars on the hope that it'll all work out. You story of your $3200 conversion is in fact a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You are quite happy talking about a $10K conversion now. But honestly could you have convinced your pre-EV self to invest that $10K without being sure of the result?

The really good things about EVs is that they are upgradable. It isn't terribly difficult to transfer the guts to a new rolling chassis, or to buy a better battery pack. Used batteries (especially lead), have value. And they can be recycled.

You didn't start at 144V. You didn't start with a Syncromotive controller. You didn't start with a Lithium pack. The point is that you started where you could and upgraded as you could. And you made those investments after you have proved that they were worth making.

That's the psychology that I'm talking about. And the continued discussion of "it isn't worth doing unless you invest $10K to start" will drive anyone who is unsure away. Frankly if they have that type of cash to invest, they are better off doing what you did and invest it in a Leaf, and skip the entire DIY experience.




> Not nearly as much as you might think. Some yes. I don't doubt that because lithium is better than lead. I know how it works. But the issue is you buy lead then some lithium then you go out and spend again for another full lithium pack when you could have from the beginning purchased a good set of lithium for a reasonable price.


I'm going to call you on this every time until you admit there is no way to get a "good set of lithium" for under $3500. And that's for 96V, which isn't the perfect EV experience either.

I am well aware this is a reality vs. perception discussion. My same psychology argument applies to this too. Someone may be willing to spend $900 now for a lead testing pack that will not be willing to spend $3500 now for a full Lithium pack. You're absolute hate for lead blinds you to the fact that the $2500 difference is simply a non starter for a slice of the population. Folks such as poprock1 who started this, and myself. Even understanding that the total over cost is more, and that the total overall experience is less, there are some who would feel more comfortable investing less initial capital.

I haven't even factored in that some of us actually live with people called spouses, who no matter how many ways you explain it, they are only going to see the $2500 difference in cost. But if you can give them an actual ride, in an actual working vehicle, then you have a tool to explain why the upgrade is necessary.

Finally poprock1 has a working EV, with lead, and still isn't willing invest in Lithium because of the cost. All your objections on weight, sag, watering, etc. are still outweighed by cost. He actually understands the limitations, and still wants the cost control of investing in smaller chunks.

That's three different populations that are difficult to sway into investing. And you're going to have a tough time cracking that wall with the "Lithium or bust!" argument.

All you've done so far is argue that anything other than a total investment is a dumb idea. You've offered absolutely not one alternative. You've been dismissive of my transitional plan, even though that plan plays right into the heart of the psychological/perception argument of the three groups above.



> Even used you might have to save but you sure save more waiting and being patient and refining your other parts while you wait. Why spend the money TWICE when you could have done so ONCE.


Because then you can drive now, instead of later. And your argument is fallacious, because you again confuse overall cost with capital cost. If I spend $1000 for lead now, at best I'm spending a third of a Lithium pack. If I then spend another $1500 on a 40 Ah Lithium booster, I've still only spend about 70% of the full pack. And I would have a working, running vehicle the entire time. My argument is the simple financing one, which is to pay in smaller chunks over time, while actually having use of the equipment while you pay. And always you end up paying more in toto. But that's the cost of not having to pay everything up front.

Now the correct counter argument may be that it may be worth financing Lithium. But cost conscious folks who have $1000 in cash and a $5000 credit card are not going to be thrilled plunking down $4000 on the card when they can ride now for cash.



> Lithium really does take a toll up front price but make no illusion about it, it is cheaper in the end and that is money in the bank.


This is reality. Now tell me how you counter the perception? One of the first posts of this thread asked poprock1 why not Lithium. His response was $$$$$$$$$$$$. I keep trying to tell you that it doesn't matter if it's cheaper in the end. Everyone in finance knows that it doesn't matter. It only matters that it's cheaper in the beginning. You have brought nothing to address this other than "It's worth being patient to save until you can afford it." That may have been the prevailing attitude in 1813 or 1913, but in our 2013 instant gratification world, there is little hope of that argument having any traction.



> I have nor do the vendors have trouble with you spending your money twice. Keeps them in business. I once believed what you do about all this. Truly, if you want a good vehicle you need to bite the bullet and go with the best.
> 
> If you do go LOW Cost please don't build a Piece of Crap. Most that are done under $2500 are just garbage. You will come to see the light.
> 
> ...


I find it interesting that you still think that I'm advocating lead. Or that I really believe that a $2500 conversion is a final product. It's human nature for people to invest in results. You put more into things that actually work, and hedge on things that you are not sure are going to work. Your experience isn't visceral to me, or to my wife, or to poprock1. I need the glorified golf cart in order to continue investing. I need to keep my budget within the $150 or so /month savings on gas. If I popped $4000 on a credit card, half of that $150/month would be eaten in interest charges alone.

BTW I've noticed you have not made any technical arguments against the hybrid pack, only financial ones. Ziggy has already proved the concept. It's clear that a functional vehicle with incremental pack improvements can be done.

You are welcome to come back with the full pack argument when you can get the capital cost below $2000. Until then, I'm going to pursue Ziggy's path.

ga2500ev


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## ga2500ev (Apr 20, 2008)

onegreenev said:


> ga2500ev,
> 
> I have been reading and following his hybrid pack. I think its a great thing. Complex which I mentioned before and not a simple easy to follow no muss no fuss affair. It works if you work at it. But give it to someone that has no clue and it ends right there. It is nothing but an experiment. A cool one and I am actually glad someone actually took the time to do it because it shows it is a complex affair. That is what is needed. So in reality it is not a viable option. Just because you can make something work does not mean it is a viable option. But you can rest assured we are watching. Watching an experiment is perfect. Listening to someone boast without doing is just crap. That is why we like this. Its a science project. Gotta love science projects. Its something new. But not ready for prime time.


It doesn't have to be. It's the perfect setup for the DIY tinkerer on the cheap. I've finally figured out that we are speaking of two different audiences. I'm going to say for the record, and clarify in a moment, that your audience doesn't factor in this discussion.

My audience is the DIY tinkerer. The one who builds everything by hand. Who wants to know how everything works. Who comes to DIYElectricCar because they want to do a DIY Electric car. This science experiment targets that audience.


> It needs to be a no muss no fuss affair that consistently works and is reliable and requires no real user input. Just plug it in walk away and drive when ready. Yes, even for a DIY thing it is needed. Folks want to know they can convert and just be happy. They don't want something they have to work hard at. Some are happy with tinkering. Many who are interested are not. To get those involved you must have a viable DIY strategy to make it an easy conversion and one that is reliable, trouble free and no muss and no fuss. One that can be plugged in, walk away and drive when ready. Simple and safe.


There used to be a need for that audience. There isn't one anymore. Folks in this group can simply go buy a Leaf and be done with it. DIY used to be a necessity because there were no commercial offerings. It's simply not true anymore. With the Leaf and the plug in hybrids, one can get a no muss, no fuss EV off the lot. And unlike our other discussion, those cars can actually be financed.

Now anyone who does a DIY conversion is doing it because they want to do one, not because they have to. As such it's OK to have discussions and experiments that are complex and not ready for prime time.

ga2500ev


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

It has been stated several times that LA batteries last about a year. That is not the case for all leads. My very first pack was twelve series 27 12volt batteries. Admittedly they did not last much more than a year. It had a lot to do with the way I treated them. I was enamored with the instant torque so I was constantly hammering the foot peddle. I started shopping for new batteries. At that time anything involving lithium was in the twenty five to thirty thousand dollar range and had a reputation of blowing up so the only affordable choice was another pack of lead batteries. I decided on 8 volts as a compromise because 6 volt batts were way too heavy and although 12volts were lighter they did not have enough capacity. An Eighteen 8 volt battery pack lasts me about three and a half years at an average 3100 miles a year before I start seeing a decline. The thing is in 13 plus years I have spent about the same amount of money on three packs of la batteries that I would have on a pack of lithiums that would give the same range as the lead pack and might have lasted 13 years. At $2000 every 42 months with no loans or interest payments and a range of 30 miles in an environment where I very seldom go over 20 miles I think lead is still doable.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

You fail to acknowledge that I DID build a budget lead acid car that was successful and lived with it for awhile. 

http://greenev.zapto.org/electricvw

Look under the Albums link and then under the Slow N Low for a peek at my first conversion and have a poke around the site. 

So how far along are you with your budget build. What do you need help with getting it going? So you think you can get your budget build done before summer is over? If not I truly hope you plan on saving money. 

By the way, I am married and she has no trouble with me spending my money on my projects. I just be sure I pay my part of the monthly needs. Actually what I do is buy and sell stuff on the side to help fund my project. I do this because I plan on saving my hard earned cash on retirement. I do work full time and went back to school to learn a new trade and I now make a pretty hefty amount of change at my work. It might not be a bad idea. It's never too late. I went back in my mid 40's to school. Now between the two of us we do quite well. We also only have our home to pay for and my Leaf. We have no other debts. NONE. It takes time and patience. 

I wanted solar on my house 30 years ago. I only got it 6 years ago. Did what ever else I could since then. 

I still don't think the hybrid way is the best. It looks like it might but he will spend what. $3500 in lithium along with his lead and have a $5k pack. 

Why haul around all that weight when you can have a lithium pack that will do what the lead can do and better for nearly the same price? 

Like with the Volt. Why haul around the gas and engine when you only drive in electric mode. Just crazy. 

I can get you into a pack of lithium for that. Since your willing to be a short distance driver. It will last you plenty long enough to save for the next better pack. 

His distances are still not great with the hybrid pack. I do like it but its not ready. If you follow along and spend your money on a system like his and then come to find out that it is not really so hot then you will be pissed. Like all those that followed Jack Rickards way of doing a hot water system with the on demand hot water heater. On the surface and with some testing it was a great system. But in practical daily use it just crapped out. Too bad for those that followed suit. 

But if you insist what can be done different than Ziggy's set up that may improve the functionality of the system? 

Lets go there instead. Since Ziggy is the only one doing this he is the only one that really has insight into what may need to be done to better his system. If it truly helps the lead acid live longer then that is a good thing. If it is only perceived that it is helping then that is bad.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

dragonsgate said:


> It has been stated several times that LA batteries last about a year. That is not the case for all leads. My very first pack was twelve series 27 12volt batteries. Admittedly they did not last much more than a year. It had a lot to do with the way I treated them. I was enamored with the instant torque so I was constantly hammering the foot peddle. I started shopping for new batteries. At that time anything involving lithium was in the twenty five to thirty thousand dollar range and had a reputation of blowing up so the only affordable choice was another pack of lead batteries. I decided on 8 volts as a compromise because 6 volt batts were way too heavy and although 12volts were lighter they did not have enough capacity. An Eighteen 8 volt battery pack lasts me about three and a half years at an average 3100 miles a year before I start seeing a decline. The thing is in 13 plus years I have spent about the same amount of money on three packs of la batteries that I would have on a pack of lithiums that would give the same range as the lead pack and might have lasted 13 years. At $2000 every 42 months with no loans or interest payments and a range of 30 miles in an environment where I very seldom go over 20 miles I think lead is still doable.


Yes, lead is doable and if you drive mostly in town under 45 mph and only a few miles per day then lead is very doable. How many miles do you have on your EV and how much did you spend on batteries to get that many miles? 

I have a solid 22,000 on the leaf and still going strong. Try that with lead in a year and a half. Ain't gonna happen. And that is freeway driving.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

onegreenev said:


> > BTW voltage sag is another area where using a hybrid helps. Lithium provides a very stiff voltage floor, lessening the overall sag.
> 
> 
> Not nearly as much as you might think. Some yes. I don't doubt that because lithium is better than lead. I know how it works. But the issue is you buy lead then some lithium then you go out and spend again for another full lithium pack when you could have from the beginning purchased a good set of lithium for a reasonable price. Even used you might have to save but you sure save more waiting and being patient and refining your other parts while you wait. Why spend the money TWICE when you could have done so ONCE.
> Pete


50% less sag...how much were you thinking?

Why would you have to buy anything twice? I have 40AH, I'll buy 40AH more. The alternative would have been to buy 100AH at once, for a total cost 20% higher after waiting years or financing.




onegreenev said:


> Complex which I mentioned before and not a simple easy to follow no muss no fuss affair. It works if you work at it. But give it to someone that has no clue and it ends right there.


What's so complex about a contactor and a JLD404? Is 5 min of tweaking every few months really more than you spend on your cars?

I run it as a science project because I'm interested in the numbers. With 10 min of work I haven't gotten around to it would easily be hands free for anyone to use.


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## dragonsgate (May 19, 2012)

onegreenev said:


> Yes, lead is doable and if you drive mostly in town under 45 mph and only a few miles per day then lead is very doable. How many miles do you have on your EV and how much did you spend on batteries to get that many miles?
> 
> I have a solid 22,000 on the leaf and still going strong. Try that with lead in a year and a half. Ain't gonna happen. And that is freeway driving.


My daily drive is making delivery to the post office five days a week. The pattern goes something like this….I pull out of the garage and up my drive way one tenth of a mile to the dirt road up four tenths of a mile to what passes for pavement in Arkansas. I speed up to about 30mph for 2 miles and then have to slow down to 15mph for the new school area and the onto the main highway where I can get back up to 30mph in off tourist season. I then go down a long grade into the historical part of town and if there is no traffic can go 10mph up hill for about a half mile to the post office. In the summer it can be a mad house with all the tourists creeping along and J walking or just plain standing in the middle of the street. Then it is stop and go at a walking pace for that half mile. I usually go straight home during tourist season and will have traveled 9.9 miles round trip with the voltage showing aprox. 147.6V. If it is off season or not to much traffic on any day I take the extra 10 mile long cut up a twisty road where I sometimes hit up to 45mph. I have to watch though because it is a two lane and the speed limit is 25 mph. That trip is about 19.6 miles and after I back into the garage and the voltage reads anywhere between 144-145V depending on how hard I have managed to push it. I have one road I like to take that is fairly hilly with some nice turns that is about 24 miles round trip. I usually drive it at 60mph. There is a gas station that we stop at and have a root beer float then head back home. If I keep it at 55-60 I can get a reading of around 144v at the end of the trip. Well I guess you get the picture. I do not coddle my EV and I like to drive. I can argue for you that performance would be so much greater if I was lighter by 400 pounds or more and I would have more range etc. so maybe the lead is keeping me from killing myself. Spouses were mentioned earlier. Well mine would let me spend all the money I wanted if I really wanted to spend it. All our money goes together into one account and she has worked hard to get everything paid off and get us totally debt free. I am talking no mortgage no monthly credit bills. It is me that does not want to drop 5K or more in one chunk. I just don’t want to spend that much money on something that is going to go bad with little or no resale value or I might tear up. I have 40,908 miles on my car at this time. So far as of Nov. 1999 I have spent $5300 on three 144 volt packs batteries and this pack is still going strong.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I'm still on the fence with this. I'd like to do a conversion for the challenge and fun aspects, but I really don't drive very much, and when I do it is either short trips to the store or local places within a 15 mile round trip on 30-40 MPH roads, OR trips to where I work a couple times a month (60 miles R/T), or much longer road trips where any EV would be impractical (90 to 500 miles in a day). 

Right now my income is greatly limited and I really can't work full-time because of health issues. I probably qualify for disability and perhaps I should apply for assistance. But my house and my 1999 Saturn and my 1989 Toyota 4WD pickup are paid in full, so my main expenses are food, medical, and taxes. I also have my own business where I draw $18k/year salary and many of my expenses for EV R&D can be counted as business expenses. 

I'd really like to jump into a road-going EV project, but I realize that I can't physically do everything myself and I don't have the funds to pay someone else to do the work (at least not professional machinists and automotive mechanics). From what I've learned here, and from my own knowledge and experience, I am definitely committed to using an industrial three phase motor and VFD, which will require a battery pack of at least 240 VDC. 

I have pretty thoroughly investigated the pros and cons of the three major battery technologies, Lead, NiMH, and Lithium, and the sub-categories of FLA/SLA and Li-Ion, LiPoly, and LiFePO4. I've gone a short ways down some virtual dead-ends where I had figured cost based on hugely inflated specs of some NiMH, Li-Ion, and LiFePO4 batteries. Even if the $/Wh were as advertised, the smaller cells I was considering would have taken too much time and expense for interconnection and BMS. I have made a small EV tractor using SLAs but I had problems with boosting from 12 or 24 VDC to the 250-350V needed for the VFD. And that system would not provide an easy way to use regen, so I figured I needed the full DC link voltage made from batteries. 

In a previous post I outlined my choices based on the constraints I impose (no low-voltage packs), and it appeared that going with SLAs was a good option for my tractor (20 x 12V x 12Ah = 2.9kWh), and the 240 lb was no problem. Also the $400 cost was not a major issue. Actually I think SLAs or even FLAs are just about perfect for tractors, where the weight is actually an advantage, speed is very slow, and usage is typically an hour or two at a time, once or twice a week. 

OTOH, for a road EV, I figured that FLAs are cheaper and lighter than SLAs, so I determined that I might use 20 x 12V x 100Ah = 24 kWh, which would cost about $1800 and weigh about 1200 lb. For my purposes, it may be better to do a conversion on a full size van or small truck, which could safely carry the weight and have maximum cargo space. I expect that I might have a finished weight of 4000 lb, and from my EVcalculator I find that I can maintain 40 MPH on a 3% grade with 25 HP and energy use of 450 Wh/mile. On a flat grade I need 10 HP and I'll use 185 Wh/m. If I do need to cruise at 60 MPH I would use 17 HP and 225 Wh/m. 

So, if these figures hold (and I admit they seem optimistic), I might be able to stay within the 300-350 Wh/m figure typical of many DIY EVs, and if the true capacity of the pack is only 10 kWh I might get as much as 30 miles range. If I only use this EV for short trips at low speeds, a few times a week, I think it might last a year or so. Thus, for my particular needs, I might be able to make a practical "lead sled" for about $4000 up front, and the 1200 lb of lead at $0.25/lb would drop the cost of batteries to $1500 for a year's use. The motor and VFD would hopefully still be worth about the same as I paid (about $1200), and the car/truck itself would still be worth about what I expect to pay (about $1000). In fact, if the vehicle were still driveable and just have weak batteries, I could probably sell it as a complete EV for maybe $2500. In any case, I'd only be risking about $1500 for a year's worth of building and driving experience. And maybe by then the bottom will drop out of the Lithium battery market and I'll be able to get a righteous true 24 kWh pack for $1500 less than it would cost now. 

To sum up, I first need to get myself healthy enough to do some of this kind of work (back, hip, knee surgery), and then finish my small tractor project by mid-summer, and maybe tackle a road EV before winter. I agree that Lithium is "best", but an $8000 battery pack is a non-starter for me at this time. However, if I can use my tractor conversion project as an example, maybe I could make some money on such conversions (lots of tractors available for cheap with bad engines), and thus finance a more "proper" DIY EV.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm new here and know nothing, so basically whatever I have to say will be more a question than anything else.

So from what I have gathered so far LiFePo4 is better than lead in terms of price and performance in the long run. I happily accept this. 

So my question has to do with whether you should bother until you can afford a lithium pack. Please excuse my city size ballpark figures, but what I have from this thread is.

$1000 budget per year to replace a lead pack.
Average lead commute of 20 miles per day 5 days a week for 52 weeks= 5200 miles
5200miles/ 20mpg =260g x $4 per gallon =$1040 in fuel 
So fuel savings with lead about the same price as lead budget per year.
I understand the average cost of charge to be a 1/4 the cost of gasoline.
$1040/4= $260 So about the same cost as a tune up and the recommeded number of oil changes a year.

So if a person was to save a $1000 per year for lithium, it would take 5 years for a $5000 pack. Which a person would need to save above the cost of fuel and normal ICE maintanence and repairs anyways.

So even if the fuel savings is spent on lead, wouldn't this still be better than burning gas for 5 years?

BTW I live in Winnipeg where the -30C temps kind of kills lead for me.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Whether you should bother depends on your motivations. One of mine was to divert my $$$ from OPEXXON to pretty much anywhere else.

For electricity to cost 1/4 of gas would require a very high utility rate. Mine is more like 1/10th.

My first lead pack paid for itself + ~20% in it's year of life. Lithium takes longer to pay off, but can pay for the rest of the car quicker.

Another option is to finance the cost of the lithium as the interest cost should be less than the difference between lead and lithium depreciation.


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

trukr said:


> BTW I live in Winnipeg where the -30C temps kind of kills lead for me.


I think lead acid batteries are better than lithium at low temperatures. Of course at -30C any battery will have a hard time. Here is a good reference on the characteristics of lead batteries:
http://pvcdrom.pveducation.org/BATTERY/charlead.htm

It shows lead-acid batteries have about 40% capacity at -30C. You might be able to install heaters and insulate the batteries and they should increase capacity as you drive, although the heaters will reduce their energy. You might be able to dump some of the regen into the heaters, especially if you don't have a system that can dynamically recharge the batteries during braking. It's really best to keep the car in a heated (or at least protected) garage, or install battery heaters powered from the grid. If they are well insulated you should be able to keep a battery pack above 0C with maybe 500-1000W.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

A guy from my local EAA switched to lithium pack last summer after his lead pack died and said the opposite. He says the lithium is better during the winter. Also during the summer the lithium sags far less than the lead.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Whether you should bother depends on your motivations. One of mine was to divert my $$$ from OPEXXON to pretty much anywhere else.
> 
> For electricity to cost 1/4 of gas would require a very high utility rate. Mine is more like 1/10th.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the real world numbers. I got to tell you though, that youtube vid of neolander's rant has got me a little worried. I'm not sure what the ettiquette is here for links, so I'll let you guys search it on your own. Plus I'm sure he's mentioned it on this forum anyways. 

I don't mind spending money for the right product, but if the product is as inconsistent as he suggests, then I have to slow it down a bit. That's just too much money to "hope for the best" with.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

PStechPaul said:


> I think lead acid batteries are better than lithium at low temperatures. Of course at -30C any battery will have a hard time. Here is a good reference on the characteristics of lead batteries:
> http://pvcdrom.pveducation.org/BATTERY/charlead.htm
> 
> It shows lead-acid batteries have about 40% capacity at -30C. You might be able to install heaters and insulate the batteries and they should increase capacity as you drive, although the heaters will reduce their energy. You might be able to dump some of the regen into the heaters, especially if you don't have a system that can dynamically recharge the batteries during braking. It's really best to keep the car in a heated (or at least protected) garage, or install battery heaters powered from the grid. If they are well insulated you should be able to keep a battery pack above 0C with maybe 500-1000W.



I was more worried about how the cold affects the cycle life of lead vs lithium. Plus you can only go so heavy with lead to compensate for loss of range and power for cabin heat. At least with lithium you have more room to throw money at the problem.

The one good thing about the weather in Winnipeg is all the outlets provided for block heaters. I was thinking about a winter heat pack for the batts to go with the charging.

I'm even considering an APU tri-pack like our company uses in all the rigs. At least for the winter. The APU was enough to keep the condo size cabin and diesel block warm along with running all the creature comforts in the truck. Microwave, tv, etc. It has a 14.5v 120amp alternator, and up to 13600btu/hr heating. But it weighs up to 500lbs. I'm just not sure how efficient that diesel generator is. But in winter in Winnipeg, running out of heat or range isn't just inconvenient, it's a matter of survival. One guy that broke down on the highway this winter was found frozen 50 yards from his car. It might just make more sense to run a gas car in extreme cold.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

trukr said:


> One guy that broke down on the highway this winter was found frozen 50 yards from his car. It might just make more sense to run a gas car in extreme cold.


Was he driving an EV?


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

Ziggythewiz said:


> Was he driving an EV?


No he wasn't. I meant to say, it might make more sense to drive a reliable gas car.

Most people here buy a beater to use during the winter despite the consequences. I'd rather deal with rust repair in the summer than being stranded in the winter. Or worse, have my wife or one of my kids stranded because I'm worried about the shiny cars. This spring I have to deal with the Ram she got rear ended in, and the RSX my son mangled basically all over except the roof.

I'm trying to cover her commute of at least 90km round trip at 70km/h that she has a couple days of the week. The rest of the week it's half that. Plus account for the lower capacity and cabin heat of the -30C days.


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## trukr (Mar 17, 2013)

trukr said:


> Thanks for the real world numbers. I got to tell you though, that youtube vid of neolander's rant has got me a little worried. I'm not sure what the ettiquette is here for links, so I'll let you guys search it on your own. Plus I'm sure he's mentioned it on this forum anyways.
> 
> I don't mind spending money for the right product, but if the product is as inconsistent as he suggests, then I have to slow it down a bit. That's just too much money to "hope for the best" with.


EDIT that youtube vid was Noleander's EV Rant on LiFePO4 Cells and liars


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

trukr said:


> EDIT that youtube vid was Noleander's EV Rant on LiFePO4 Cells and liars


Sounds like an idiot with a video camera.

Correction. IS an idiot with a video camera. 

Paraphrased: A small battery pack should be able to go as far as a big one. It's BS that they can't! We should be allowed to buy from the OEMs that will charge 4x as much so we can save $$$. Every EV should be REQUIRED to have at least 115 HP to be allowed on the road. A123 should save us. A123 should SAAAAVE us!


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

It took a bit of effort to find the video, so here it is:




 
I think maybe this guy got some bad batteries that have much lower actual capacity and higher internal resistance than advertised. I experienced that with the 18650 cells (Li-Ion and LiFePO4) I purchased and tested, and also NiMH AA cells. They had at most 1/2 the claimed capacity and some maybe 1/4 or less. I don't know if that also applies to the larger prismatic cells, but likely so, for "off" brands. He is a bit off base about the power requirements, though (although I can't speak from direct experience). 500 amps and 144V is 72kW or almost 100 HP. You only need 62 HP to accelerate a 3300 lb vehicle at 4.5 MPH/sec, or 13 seconds 0-60. And probably a lot quicker using a transmission properly.

This is getting a bit off-topic, although "other forums" may apply to the video rant. As for the need for a reliable heater and a car that won't break down and leave one stranded to freeze to death in the near-Arctic regions of the US or Canada, there is really a lot more that can go wrong with an ICE system than an EV. And for anyone driving in remote areas where extreme cold and dangerous weather may leave you stranded, one should always have (1) a reliable cell phone, (2) a good sleeping bag, (3) emergency food and water, and (4) auxiliary means of heating. You can get electrically heated pads and clothing that will keep you warm enough with 100 watts or so (at least 8 hours on an auxiliary battery). And you may also be able to use a small propane or kerosene heater in the cab, if you also have a CO detector/alarm.

For a good story about freezing to death in the Yukon, read Jack London's "*To Build A Fire*".


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

PStechPaul said:


> And for anyone driving in remote areas where extreme cold and dangerous weather may leave you stranded, one should always have (1) a reliable cell phone, (2) a good sleeping bag, (3) emergency food and water, and (4) auxiliary means of heating.


I was always raised to know to have stuff to keep you alive outside, inside your car. I know many people who will drive from here to there in freezing weather without even a jacket because the car will keep them warm...until it doesn't. 

If you have enough stuff to tolerate walking outside for a while you'll be quite comfy in the shelter of a vehicle without needing to run stuff to keep warm.

Around here cold isn't an issue, but it is illegal to drive barefoot, which apparently is popular around the country. Sometimes though, you have to actually leave your vehicle. Plan for it.


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

_My audience is the DIY tinkerer. The one who builds everything by hand. Who wants to know how everything works. Who comes to DIYElectricCar because they want to do a DIY Electric car._
_Now anyone who does a DIY conversion is doing it because they want to do one, not because they have to. _ 
What a monster I have created with my question! These two quotations sum up my approach to my EV.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

This thread had me wondering how cheap can you make a lithium pack to get a small light car to the shops and back.

I think you can do it for $2000.

Calb 60ah grey cell @ $1.25AH = $75. So you can buy 26 cells.

At 3.2V nominal thats 83.2V and 5kWh.

Assuming a small car like a Geo Metro can do 175 w/m in the city at 80% DOD we have a range of 22 miles.

With 3000 cycles a 85000 mile life to 80% capacity loss.
With 10C power (for 30 seconds) 600 amps. This equates to 40 kW to the motor accounting for 17% voltage sag (down to 71V).
With 5C continuous - 300 amps - city driving will be OK.
Weight = 52 kg or 116 lbs.

Sounds pretty good for a relatively cheap pack that you can easily add to as you can afford - assuming you choose components that can grow as the pack does.


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## Siwastaja (Aug 1, 2012)

drgrieve, a very good calculation.

People often say that lithium is much more expensive than lead, but they tend to increase their design range requirement when moving to lithium, which is understandable because it's easily possible without the immediate weight problem; but the comparison isn't fair anymore then.

We should also remember that the Peukert effect gets worse when the lead battery ages and thus the usable lead pack range will diminish relatively quickly. Nobody wants to get a new pack after just a year or two, so this aging needs to be factored in when sizing the pack. If this is taken into account, a similar lead and lithium packs may actually cost the same, even when comparing the upfront cost!


We just bought a $1000 pack of RC LIPO batteries for our 600kg Suzuki Alto prototype platform -- that's 333V 5Ah (90 cells, 20C continuous rating, but I'd do only 20C peak, 10-15C cont using these cells). It should give a range of 10-15 km on such a small car. But what's really interesting in this experiment is to see how many cycles and what calendar life we can get out of these cells when properly used. The best thing about these cells is that they are optimized for both energy and power density, so this pack weighs only 10 kg -- about half of the similar LiFePO4 pack, and about 1/15th of the similar lead pack.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Yeah, I have a 120V pack of 40AH CALBs...~$2k and 120 lbs. I use them as a booster, but they could easily handle just driving around town with a 10-15 mile range.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

drgrieve said:


> This thread had me wondering how cheap can you make a lithium pack to get a small light car to the shops and back.
> 
> I think you can do it for $2000.
> 
> ...


I agree but I did it differently

Headway 16Ah @ $20. So I bought 88 cells. - $1760

At 3.3V nominal thats 145V and 4.6kWh.

My range is about 25Km (but I have a lead foot)

With 10C power (Continuous) 320 amps. 

This equates to 40 kW to the motor accounting for 17% voltage sag 

With 15C (Burst) - 480 amps - 60Kw

Weight = 44 kg or 96 lbs.

This is a fun car - It is about 8 seconds to 60mph
and is great fun on the track
I do intend increasing the pack size, (and fitting a beefier controller) because I can't quite spin the back tires

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-dubious-device-44370p7.html?highlight=duncan


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