# [EVDL] Upgrading to J1772



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In Tom's post
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Citicar-at-64-Volts-tp4275825p4275825.html
Citicar at 64 Volts
... The next step is to buy a J1772 inlet and J1772 signal generator. 
They are on eBay for about $145, but I would need to find a method to
mount the inlet on a Citicar without damaging the plastic body and 
making it look like it belongs there ...


I found the ebay ad I believe Tom referred to, and it is listed on:
http://stores.ebay.com/Modular-EV-Power
While there are other sources for the inlet and the signal generator 
Tom mentioned (and they will no doubt self-promote themselves), I 
looked at the ad to see what I would have to do if I still had my 
S-10 Blazer conversion and also wanted to mount a J1772 inlet on my 
EV.

I am hoping the engineering types will weigh in with a comment post, 
as it looks like a simple metal plate to mount the inlet. But I am 
thinking it will take a little more engineering effort than that. 

As I cruise and clean up recargo listings, I see more and more EVSE 
sites that have a "Our valet will do the charging" methodology. So,
you are handing your keys over to a parking-gorilla who's likely not
that concerned to take care of your baby. I could foresee mechanical 
stress forces much more than I would put on that adapter plate the 
J1772 inlet would be mounted on. I wonder what other things I could
do to beef up the twist, push and pull handling ability of that 
mounting plate.


To make this metal mounting plate assembly, I know of a business 
with couple of their locations in the SF area:
http://techshop.ws/locations.html
Since not everyone has a garage full of metal working tools and 
equipment, this could be one solution to building the metal mounting
plate.

The techshop has its own methods, as you can not just walking off 
the street and use the equipment and tools. They require you to 
pass a few of their classes before you can gain access to their 
facility.


Since public J1772 EVSE provide as much as 7+kW (240VAC 32A), 8
gauge wiring will be needed to handle the power to the on-board 
charger. My local home-improvement-warehouse store can provide that
and any other common electrical do-dads that will be needed.

But what also concerns me is how to be able to charge of public
EVSE that is not full power?

If I have an on-board charger (AC to DC) that will draw as much as
7+kW, and I have it connected to say a 3kW EVSE (like at a few Nissan
and other locations), how does it keep from drawing too much power
through and EVSE that was not designed to handle it? Post-2010
Production EV/pih on-board chargers know to throttle back their input
current demand according to the signals the EVSE is set to (if the
EVSE says it is a 3kW, then the on-board charger will not draw more
than 3kW from the EVSE).


I wonder what other points have to be considered when bringing your
baby up to the year 2010+ ?



{brucedp.150m.com}

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bruce wrote:
> 
> I wonder what other points have to be considered when bringing your baby up
> to the year 2010+ ?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Since public J1772 EVSE provide as much as 7+kW (240VAC 32A), 8
> gauge wiring will be needed to handle the power to the on-board
> charger.

The J1772 Standard requires that the cord used on EVSE's be rated for 105 deg C. Paragraph 8.5.3, 
Temperature rise, states that "The wiring insulation shall be rated for 105 deg C."

If you use NEC Table 400.5(A), it states that 10 AWG (only 2 conductors are current-carrying) is 
rated for 30 amps only. But that is for 30 deg C (86 deg F).

I couldn't find a NEC table for 105 deg C, but Harbour Industries has an Ampacity Chart and at 105 
deg C, it states that 10AWG with 2-5 conductors is rated at 58 Amps.

A client just asked me to make him a "J1772 Extension Cord" with a J1772 Plug at one end and a J1772 
Inlet at the other for his GE EVSE. I looked up the specs of their WattStation, the Voltage and 
Current Rating is 208-240VAC @ 30A. So with the WattStation, 10AWG cord is within the specs and 8AWG 
is not needed.

The specs for the ChargePoint CT2000 states "Level 2 Charging 220V at 15A, 30A, 80A; J1772 
Connector". The Yazaki connector they use is rated at "AC30A 120/240V" (it is stamped right on the 
connector), and the cord itself is stamped "3/10AWG" so again 10AWG cord is alright to use for the 
majority of J1772 Charging.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Tom Keenan wrote:
> > I've done a number of updates to the original mid-70's design. IMHO, some
> > are significant improvements, others are aesthetic:
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 10 Jan 2012 at 12:45, Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > As the design evolved, they had to increase it from the original 3.5hp,
> > to 4.5hp, to 8hp, and finally the 12hp motor in my ComutaVan. It was
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> >I would guess your next problem will be the motor. Bob wanted
> >to use two motors; but for cost reasons, they went with one.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>I don't know anything about the 4.5hp motor, but later Dana axle Citicars,
>and almost all Comuta-cars, had a 6hp intermittent-duty GE motor. 
>That motor was light enough (65lb) that you could bench-press it when
> installing it under the car.

Some of the original 36v Citicars had a Baldor 2.5HP motor, which was
quickly updated with the GE 3.5. The GE 6HP motor uses the same brushes as
the 3.5HP version. Internally, the 3.5 and 6 look like the same motor to
me, but with a different armature shaft and bearing arrangement. The 3.5 is
a 'closed' motor, with the ventilation holes plugged by plastic covers to
keep rocks, etc. out. It is also a 'complete' motor with bearings at each
end of the armature. The 6HP in Dana-axle 1976 Citicars and many Comutacars
has an auxiliary fan setup that can be diverted into the heating/defrosting
system (the term 'heating' being somewhat optimistic...) The drive end of
the motor is suspended by the differential input pinion bearings, and
because of the loose tolerances at the drive end it is probably RPM limited
much lower than the 3.5.

My 3.5 HP motor will heat up at about 10 degrees F or so per mile traveled,
so the range is more limited by motor heating than by battery capacity.
Both my stock (unmodified) motor and my modified motor heat up at about the
same rate.

>Replacing the contactor controller with a 350 amp transistor controller
saved the brushes, 
>but made climbing hills even more difficult. I wouldn't want to use less
than a 500a 
>controller for these cars, and >600a or more would be better.

The Alltrax 7245 I have is supposed to be a 450 amp controller, but reports
over 500 amps at times. At 48v, it would accelerate about the same as when
it was a contactor car. Now that it is a 64v car, it accelerates and climbs
hills much, much better.

>Comuta-Cars, and possibly late Citicars, came with Michelin radials in
>135R13 size. These are a real challenge to replace. 

My Citicar has 12" rims, and I found 145R12 tires (Dean Celestial Metric)
that work well. 145's do rub a bit on the frame if I lock the steering
wheel one way and go up a driveway/curb cut, but that is a rare event. I
have two extra 13" rims, and may put those on the rear axle to slow the
motor a bit.

>With this defroster, at least you knew when you'd opened yet another
>brush pigtail climbing a hill. You'd smell the scorched cambric insulation

>on the pigtail.

With the 3.5, it isn't ducted into the cabin, so if a brush is about to pop,
you may not know until you're suddenly out of torque - usually going up a
hill. After burning two of the stock single-shunt brushes, I've used
dual-shunt brushes, and haven't had a problem since. Hopefully (knock wood)
they will remain OK at 64v as I had Helwig size them for normal use at 72
volts/500 amps. 

>I wouldn't buy another one, though. The amount of effort required to 
>civilize them is considerable, and when you're done, you still have a 
>car that's hard to categorize as truly safe and roadworthy.

...and probably not worth much more than you paid for it originally. :-| 

I suppose it is best to think of them as a hobby, like golf or fishing...

Tom Keenan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> Bob wanted to use two motors; but for cost reasons, they went with one.



> Tom Keenan wrote:
> > I have two 3.5HP motors (one is a 'stock' spare). I would probably have to
> > change the rear axle to make a 2-motor setup work...
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the additional info, David!



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > The original Citicars with the Terrell axle did indeed have a 3.5hp motor.
> > I don't know anything about the 4.5hp motor, but later Dana axle Citicars,
> > and almost all Comuta-cars, had a 6hp intermittent-duty GE motor.
> ...


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