# Thundersky Battery Shipping problem



## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Have any of you other guys who ordered Thundersky batteries from EV Components had a problem with them not being shipped on time? I know they have done a lot to bring Li Ion batteries to Ev'ers at an affordable price, and everything I have read about them on here has been positive, but I was told by Dave and Diane that they had Thundersky 100Ah cells in stock, ready for shipping back in January; I paid them on January 22nd, and here I am going into the second week of March, still waiting for my batteries. 

In fact, I had to change the shipping address I had given them, because I recently resigned from an employer that had a loading dock. Now the batteries need to be shipped to my home. When I informed them of this problem, around February 16th, I was told the batteries would be shipped on February 22nd, but now it is March 7th and still no word on shipping. 

I had also asked them about a month ago if they had Headway cells in stock, and at the time was told they only had several cells. Last week James e-mailed me saying that they now had 1000 Headway cells in stock and asking if I still wanted some. I wrote back saying I was hesitant to order any more batteries from them until I receive the $6000 worth of TS cells they had "in stock" that were paid for two months ago. I asked him why it was taking so long to ship me my batteries, but have not received any reply thus far. 

I am starting to become a bit disturbed by this. I told them before I ordered I was planning to leave the country in March and therefor would only order batteries if they had them in stock ready to ship, because I needed to finish the car soon. That is why I went with 100 Ah cells rather than the bigger ones I would have preferred, because they were the only "extras" they had coming in the December order. If they didn't have them in stock, they shouldn't have told me they did. If it is some other problem preventing them from shipping at the very least they owe me an explanation, because they are are a month and a half late in delivering my batteries. So, I am wondering, am I the only one having this problem?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Many of the individual ThunderSky battery pallets were shipped out this past week. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. We have a few remaining ones that will go our Monday and Tuesday next week.

Our Sky Energy cells arrived in the warehouse on Friday (3/5). Those are already prepared and will be going out Monday and Tuesday to customers.

I apologize if we miscommunicated the info of what was in stock on a certain date. We have had problems with overpromising and underdelivering. That is being fixed with a new employee (former Marine) who has a background in logistics and shipping. He starts in late March.

We have had a few TS 100 Ah cells in stock after the last container, but only small quantities. 
Perhaps not enough to meet the quantity required in your order.

For Headway cells, we have approximately 1,500 in the warehouse now. People who have been waiting on their Headway cells should receive them this week. All of the existing orders were boxed up on Friday (3/5). They should be going out Monday and Tuesday to customers.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I ordered on 9/14/09 and received 12/31/09. Took about 3.5 months. Much longer lead time than they quoted, but I'm not complaining =) Im happy with the cells, and with the price.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

etischer said:


> I ordered on 9/14/09 and received 12/31/09. Took about 3.5 months. Much longer lead time than they quoted, but I'm not complaining =) Im happy with the cells, and with the price.


Like I said, we have a history of overpromising and missing our estimated shipping dates. 
We are trying to fix that. I am not happy with our past performance. 

We have a new version of Quickbooks (Enterprise edition) that will allow us to better track inventory and ordering processes. 

We are also in the process of raising money from investors so that we can get more inventory in motion from Asia.
This will enable us to reduce shipping times and hopefully keep cells in stock for quicker delivery times to customers.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2010)

I can't see a real problem. You changed addresses and it's been two weeks since then. I'd say it's not terrible. It's not like going down to your local battery store and picking up a couple batteries you know. 

Pete


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

I just wanted to interject my take on this whole situation. I have been into electric conversions for over 5 years now. I have a 12 second electric dragster that i and a friend funded out of the spare csh fund that we didn't have. And as a consumer I've paid my dues in waiting for parts. Especially for ones made right here in the USA that didn't have ocean shipping and customs delays to speak of. I waited 6 months for a motor adapter plate that didn't fit my truck, and waited another couple months before I got the right one, after I made the engineering drawing from my existing tranny bell housing myself. I've waited for batteries, I've waited for motors, I've waited for Zillas when they were still being produced (and thanks to EV Components they are being produced again) ... I've wiated for months for parts that I could not get at my local Home Dept or Electric Motor Supply store.

With all that said I quit a 6 figure job in the telecom industry to come and work for EV Components and this move happened it sounds like your job transition and move happened. And now a problem with the postal system I have been waiting 2 months for my last paycheck from my old job. However I am committed to this cause will do my best to help out here in my new capacity.

With all that said I did see a little problem with shipping of product from our shop. But as James said there has been significant change in operating practices. In the defense of EV Components however I will tell you that moving enough product from overseas to significantly affect the sales price in a worldwide market is nothing to sneeze at. It seems that in the past EV Components would take a persons word for an order and go ahead and front the $$ to get a shipment going. In theory only those who ordered were to get cells. If any of you ordered or received cells that were "in stock" it was because someone else bailed on an order. If you notice on a quote that you receive in the future, payment in full is required to ensure your shipment is actually ordered on the next bulk order. We have to do this because the manufacturer requires it from us to even start an order processing. If in the extreme EVent that an order must be cancelled James has been notifying the lists that there are cells in stock. From what i have seen in the short time I have been here if there are cells in stock one day, there won't be in the next couple days. So some of you are actually getting lucky that there are cancellations of a number of cells that allows us to fulfill immediate orders.

This is difficult to track however and to be fair we are trying to give available cells to the first to pay for them. I am seeing that some of the immediately available cells have in the immediate past been double booked and we must defer one persons order until the next scheduled bulk shipment.

As James mentioned we will be getting a dedicated logistics coordinator to handle stock orders and shipping of available products. I will be working closely with him to make sure we have all the other items advertised on our website. In the meantime James is working on raising capital enough to "get ahead" of demand and have enough cells for everyone to be able to order at will and for us to be able to ship immediately. But I don't think many folks realize the effort it takes to get that done. 

As part of my main job I will be available to discuss aspects of your conversion design and to give general advice. So you can call our office any time, or I will be hanging out more on the DIY (if I can get Jim Husted to just come back and talk about motors ;-) I usually watch the EVDL and as the President of NEDRA I have to hang out on that list ;-)

If you have already been talking to Dave or Travis, they are still here and you just have to ask Diane for them by name. If you are new to calling EV Components you are free to ask Diane to pass you to me, as long as you said you heard it on the DIY. She'll have no idea what you're talking about but as long as you are not rude to her she'll have a light heart about it. 

And just one other item to mention, our shipping guys are humpin' a$$ when those cells arrive. The truck generally gives us 2 hours to unload. And then it takes several days for our warehouse guys to get the boxes arranged and counted. And just so you know the manufacturer usually sends cell impedance lists. We actually try to match your cells as closely as we can which takes more man power than its really worth to us. We also have to sort strapping hardware and terminal nuts, bolts and washers because the manufacturer typically sends them all bundled in one box. In the case of Sky Energy cells that gets real tedious counting all those nuts and washers for the threaded rod clamps. Especially when they send them all mixed in one bag, all together, not separated into a bag of nuts and a bag of washers and a bag of lock washers. 

So please, if you think we are trying to screw you by taking forever, consider the effort it takes to do this. There are plenty of other folks that are providing these cells. If you are willing to pay a much higher premium you may be able to get the same service you get with us. This is a new market and if you are doing a conversion you are still a pioneer. (ask me how I know ;-) If you know anything about history, pioneers never did have instant gratification in anything they did. But they still got it done.

Mike Willmon, P.E., CTO
EV Components
5709 Lacey Blvd SE Ste 205
Lacey, WA. 98503
360-915-7415


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Does anyone actually use the Sky Energy rods? I think you could save a lot of time asking customers on the order form if they really want to bother with them at all. Tell SE not to even include them.
You say you get impedance charts for the cells, but the last 2 SE cells I got had no bar code or markings on them to match them up with any information. How can you tell, or are they bar coding them again?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You say you get impedance charts for the cells, but the last 2 SE cells I got had no bar code or markings on them to match them up with any information. How can you tell, or are they bar coding them again?


They are bar coding the ones I saw in the most recent shipment.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a question that I wondered, would SE or TS match a set of cells if requested, for capacity and resistance? Most of my SE cells came in at 110 and 111, with a few outliers at 112-114. Resistance was between .28-.34 I think. Seems as if you could request all cells at 110 and maybe .30-.32 resistance for a nicely balanced pack. Maybe for an extra charge? If your pack was all the same capacity and resistance there would be no point in a BMS.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> They are bar coding the ones I saw in the most recent shipment.


They also put small letter stickers on each. For example if we place a customers order for 54 cells, there will be 54 cells with an "A" sticker. This makes it easey except that if that customer cancels an order. Now we might have someone that wants 48 cells and someone that wants 10. We can give the 48 cell order out of the 54 excess cells marked A. But we have to find another order or batch of cells that closely match the remain 6 in the A batch to fill the customers order for 10.

Its nicer when folks don't cancel an order. And I hear ya on not shipping the hardware. But some folks still want their hardware even if they don't plan to use it :-( It would be nice though if we made a place where you could decline the included hardware pack.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Here's a question that I wondered, would SE or TS match a set of cells if requested, for capacity and resistance? Most of my SE cells came in at 110 and 111, with a few outliers at 112-114. Resistance was between .28-.34 I think. Seems as if you could request all cells at 110 and maybe .30-.32 resistance for a nicely balanced pack. Maybe for an extra charge? If your pack was all the same capacity and resistance there would be no point in a BMS.


The closest we can come to getting you a matched pack is up front when they are new and we have the test data sheets. For the most part they pack them fairly matched per customer order. 

You'll definitely need a BMS all the time. It may be the cells stay balanced for quite a while if you initially charge balance them all. But what happens if you damage one, poke a hole in it moving it, drop something on it, or over tax it and it dies. Then any new cell you replace it with will likely be mismatched with the rest for however long that pack lasts. I don't recommend anyone run these cells without some way to 1) verify the cells are balanced frequently and 2) be able to balance them completely at least once a month or every 30 - 40 cycles.

Mike


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> If your pack was all the same capacity and resistance there would be no point in a BMS.


I'm hoping that this remains true with LiFePO4, it works for LiMn cells since their internal resistance doesn't decay over time, leaving cells that only deteriorate by capacity loss. I know of one example where an ebike using hundreds of Konion cells pulled from bad Makita drill batteries were connected in parallel and series in a mathematical way to get the internal resistance and capacity in balance and he's been riding it to work and back for a long time now with no BMS. It seems like these decay, which would be fine, but it all depends on if they do it in a uniform fashion.

That's the same concept that goes behind NiMh too, there is no BMS in pretty much every NiMh series pack out there and usually it works great, but if you look at all of the hybrids using NiMh out there, they all use cell matching to achieve a balanced pack, but eventually the internal resistance and capacity varies as they age differently even though they were the same initially and they end up failing based on the worst cells first, so eventually your matching pack won't match so well. Time will tell if LiFePO4 acts the same, but this wouldn't happen at the beginning of the cycle life of the cells. Lithium Cobalt seems to have an inconsistent rate of internal resistance drop too based on the cells I've pulled from laptop batteries, some have higher capacity at lower rates and that same cell can't withstand 1C for a minute, while another might handle 2C but have a very low capacity at any rate.

I like the promises of LiFePO4 and when I get a pack, I'd like to have it matched too if possible, it would likely extend the life with a closer match and you would then get the full capacity. I'll still go with a BMS because I like to know what's happening with my cells but I'll be assembling my own programmable BMS to my own needs and cost requirements.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

electrabishi said:


> The closest we can come to getting you a matched pack is up front when they are new and we have the test data sheets. For the most part they pack them fairly matched per customer order.
> 
> You'll definitely need a BMS all the time. It may be the cells stay balanced for quite a while if you initially charge balance them all. But what happens if you damage one, poke a hole in it moving it, drop something on it, or over tax it and it dies. Then any new cell you replace it with will likely be mismatched with the rest for however long that pack lasts. I don't recommend anyone run these cells without some way to 1) verify the cells are balanced frequently and 2) be able to balance them completely at least once a month or every 30 - 40 cycles.
> 
> Mike


For what it's worth, based on the numbers that JRP3 is providing with 112-114 Ah and resistance was between .28-.34, it is close enough for me. I'm aiming at a smaller pack so a rough 3% wouldn't be so bad, I'll probably buy an extra few cells too in case something happens and they can maintain their balance to some extent versus getting new ones, although I'd still claim the warranty if there was any issues during its period but if they didn't match they would be the new standby cells. I can also stand to lose 4 out of 52 without it being an issue either but I don't expect too high of a failure rate, they seem to be good for most of the people who are using them, besides one particular bad batch of a different brand that is long in the past, for the amount of time they've been popular here.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> You'll definitely need a BMS all the time.


Not to rehash the BMS debate but you are aware that Jack Rickard has over 5K miles on his speedster, with no BMS and no problems. I plan to bottom balance once in a while, manually check the cells once in a while, and use less than 20% of my capacity most of the time.


> But what happens if you damage one, poke a hole in it moving it, drop something on it, or over tax it and it dies.


  I'm not planning on playing football with them  Bottom balancing, conservative usage, and undercharging the cells should keep me away from the steep part of the curves where the BMS would come into play, even if I had to swap in some newer cells. If I'm wrong, you'll be getting more business from me


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Not to rehash the BMS debate but you are aware that Jack Rickard has over 5K miles on his speedster, with no BMS and no problems.


Jack Rickard has a high degree of knowledge and experience. I would not use him as an example for others to follow. Many customers do not have the level of skill or time needed to go without a BMS.

This is just my opinion. I know many people on this forum do have the skills to perhaps go without a BMS. 
But for most customers, that is not a good plan.


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## PTCruisin (Nov 19, 2009)

EVComponents said:


> Jack Rickard has a high degree of knowledge and experience. I would not use him as an example for others to follow. Many customers do not have the level of skill or time needed to go without a BMS.
> 
> This is just my opinion. I know many people on this forum do have the skills to perhaps go without a BMS.
> But for most customers, that is not a good plan.


I'll share my opinion on this since I have spent many, many months researching LiFePo4 cells and BMS technology (I teach electronics and renewable energy technology and am converting my commuter car). I think ultimately a modular approach, that integrates the BMS with a given number of cells (say 8) with a simple power and control interface that a casual EVer could just plug together and forget, is the way to go. Easier said than done, I fear, but it is something I've been interested in developing.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Not to rehash the BMS debate but you are aware that Jack Rickard has over 5K miles on his speedster, with no BMS and no problems. I plan to bottom balance once in a while, manually check the cells once in a while, and use less than 20% of my capacity most of the time.  I'm not planning on playing football with them  Bottom balancing, conservative usage, and undercharging the cells should keep me away from the steep part of the curves where the BMS would come into play, even if I had to swap in some newer cells. If I'm wrong, you'll be getting more business from me


Will all your cells be in the same box and operate at the same temperature?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

electrabishi said:


> Will all your cells be in the same box and operate at the same temperature?


No but fairly close. I doubt they'll vary more than 5 degrees if that.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> You'll definitely need a BMS all the time. It may be the cells stay balanced for quite a while if you initially charge balance them all. But what happens if you damage one, poke a hole in it moving it, drop something on it, or over tax it and it dies. Then any new cell you replace it with will likely be mismatched with the rest for however long that pack lasts. I don't recommend anyone run these cells without some way to 1) verify the cells are balanced frequently and 2) be able to balance them completely at least once a month or every 30 - 40 cycles.


 I have run over 40 cycles on my SE cells, and except for several that were over-discharged by defective bms boards they remain within +/4 mV of their mean voltage. I have never balanced them, but they have actually become closer in voltage over time, as others have reported. Ironically, my pack would be in much better shape had I not used a bms. I operated without a bms for about 2 1/2 months with no problems, but it requires a willingness to monitor with a dvm while charging to ensure the charger stops in time, discharging only to about 30% soc to avoid overdischarging a cell, and checking cell voltages periodically to ensure they still are in balance. This is something anyone who can convert their own ev can do, which is most evcomponents customers. If a person is unable or unwilling to do this, then I agree s/he should have a bms. 

I recently installed Dimitri's minibms as "insurance". My charger is now set up so it normally times out when my weakest cell is at around 3.45 - 3.50V, and I never go below 30% soc, usually not below 40%, so the bms normally serves no function. I have had it terminate the charge twice now though, as the final voltage reached during charging with the Manzanita PFC30 for given voltage limit and timer settings is charging current level and starting pack soc dependent. If charging from a significantly higher soc than typical, it would overcharge my weakest cell if left unmonitored. If I set it to only charge the pack to 90% soc or less this would not be an issue.

The ICE that was in the car prior to conversion had about a dozen sensors on it. None of these normally displayed information to the driver, they just did their job without intruding on the drivers attention unless something was wrong. I think that is what a bms should do. Display of cell voltages is nice for diagnostic purposes, but not something you want to look at all the time. I think a bms should just warn you if a cell is getting too high or low in voltage, and otherwise not intrude. If you get such an alarm you can use a dvm or inexpensive data logger like the Junsi Cell log8 to diagnose the problem. The minibms does this for low cost and is pretty robust, and with one wire hookup between cell level boards is easier to install than most. The spade terminals on the boards are very strong, and much less likely to come loose than screw terminal connections. The cell level boards can be connected in reverse polarity with no damage, just turn it around and it works fine. The NC loop of cell level boards ensures you get an alarm if a wire comes loose, or an opto or op amp on a board fails, warning you the bms is not operating correctly. It gives alarms for HVC and LVC, includes a relay that can be connected to decrease throttle with LVC and one to shut off the charger, and otherwise leaves you alone to concentrate on driving. It has current limiting resistors in all paths between cell terminals so if a silicon device fails in a conducting state (such as happened on some of my original bms boards, so is quite important to me), current is limited to less than about 0.01A. It is open source, so you can examine schematics in detail to know what you are buying, unlike most bms offered.

I recently replaced some cells that had been over-discharged by my original bms, and so far they are performing very similar to the rest of the cells in the pack as far as staying in balance and having similar internal resistance (cell voltages checked while driving with a Junsi). Will have to wait a while to see if they remain that way. Evcomponents has said several times they can match the resistance of new cells with a user's existing cells, so I'm not sure why you say a new cell will LIKELY be unmatched. I think evcomponents should clarify if they can or cannot match new cells fairly closely to existing ones (You are in a unique position to quantify this. Evcomponents could pay a college undergrad in a temporary part time position to enter the data received with several cell shipments into a spreadsheet and easily calculate mean and variance of cell resistance, giving a good estimate of these population parameters). My sample seems to indicate this isn't much of an issue, and no one gave me an indication they were carefully selected to match my existing cells. Both capacity and resistance seem to match fairly well. I also don't think the typical user will be putting holes in cells. Btw, I am still not balancing. I purchased the minibms without the shunting option, since based on my 2 1/2 months experience it is not required over at least this time period, and Jack's experience indicates even longer. If I have to use my power supply to individually charge a cell in place in the pack to balance once every several months that is fine. But again, if someone wants to pay no attention to their cells, I agree s/he should have a bms.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

You don't see a problem with being told the Batteries were in stock, he pays for them and now 7 weeks later he still has no batteries? Did you even read his post? 




gottdi said:


> I can't see a real problem. You changed addresses and it's been two weeks since then. I'd say it's not terrible. It's not like going down to your local battery store and picking up a couple batteries you know.
> 
> Pete


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> I have run over 40 cycles on my SE cells, and except for several that were over-discharged by defective bms boards they remain within +/4 mV of their mean voltage. I have never balanced them, but they have actually become closer in voltage over time, as others have reported. Ironically, my pack would be in much better shape had I not used a bms. I operated without a bms for about 2 1/2 months with no problems, but it requires a willingness to monitor with a dvm while charging to ensure the charger stops in time, discharging only to about 30% soc to avoid overdischarging a cell, and checking cell voltages periodically to ensure they still are in balance. This is something anyone who can convert their own ev can do, which is most evcomponents customers. If a person is unable or unwilling to do this, then I agree s/he should have a bms.
> 
> I recently installed Dimitri's minibms as "insurance". My charger is now set up so it normally times out when my weakest cell is at around 3.45 - 3.50V, and I never go below 30% soc, usually not below 40%, so the bms normally serves no function. I have had it terminate the charge twice now though, as the final voltage reached during charging with the Manzanita PFC30 for given voltage limit and timer settings is charging current level and starting pack soc dependent. If charging from a significantly higher soc than typical, it would overcharge my weakest cell if left unmonitored. If I set it to only charge the pack to 90% soc or less this would not be an issue.
> 
> ...


Sure think all that. You are very low in the expected cycles of your battery pack. I will admit that I came here to the realization the Headway 3r'd party BMS units were junk. Which is why EVC does not carry them anymore. I cannot speak to any of the promises made. I am saying that if you are not careful in maintaining vigilance on your cells they will not meet expected life cycles. You will not know this until you are well out of warranty if you have one. I'm not saying that because I have experience with these particular cells. I am saying that because it is the nature of the universe to drift apart aside from the theory that it shouldn't. My lead acid Deka AGM's stayed balanced very well for about 6 months. I thought why did I buy these balancing regulators. But when they did start to wander and the regs couldn't keep up with them I had wished I had a more aggressive system. I did the meter thing on each of 16 batteries or a long time. That was enough of a PITA that I cannot imagine doing that with 60+ individual cells. Once a month is fine while they are together. Since it took me 6 months to see the problem manifest in the AGM batteries I will give you 24 months and you will likely start seeing effects of imbalance. One big thing that may affect imbalance are temperature differences. Its guaranteed with folks that have a box in back and one in front. But it can still affect cells in the same box. In the race car our AGM's in the middle of the pack get way hotter that the ones on the edges. I don't need to explain why. If you ever get into a lot of detail on keeping cells balanced you'll find it is a thermal management problem. If you do not take care of the thermal management problem (or do not even know about it) then you had better take care of the charge balancing problem. 

As to my comments about EVC matching cells it was only in reference to balancing them from the start after we receive new cells with documentation. If you pop a cell there is no way for me to match your new cell because I do not know what the status is of each of your other cells. Likely they are not the same as when you bought them.

Mike


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

To be clear it was not a Headway BMS on Tom's pack, they were VB's, Volt Blochers.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Also, as I mentioned, occasional bottom balancing should avoid any problems, along with only charging to around 90% SOC. Which makes more sense in the long run, spending $500-$1000 on a BMS or on more cells? It may work out the same in the long run and I can see arguments for both methods in different cases. If you've fitted as many cells as you physically can and if you need all of their capacity most of the time then you need a BMS. If you can afford not to take the cells to their extremes then you probably don't. You say the cells drift apart over time, to what degree? 5%, 20%? Over how much time? A 5% drift over a month or so can be easily dealt with by an occasional bottom balance. If we're talking about 20% or so in that time then that could be a problem, but I've heard no reports of such behavior.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes, I understand the problems faced by a company importing batteries, and I apreciate the apology, but that doesn't help my production/build schedule. The problem is I was told they had the batteries in stock ready to ship in January, needed them in February, and was supposed to be leaving the country in March....but the car needs to be finished before I leave. That is a problem.


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## pgt400 (Jul 12, 2008)

But there was no importing problem if they said they had stock.... and you paid... and now 8 weeks later still no batteries..they screwed you good. Did they at least PM you with an absoulute delivery date? From what I've heard/read, most wait over 3 months after payment.



CFreeman54 said:


> Yes, I understand the problems faced by a company importing batteries, and I apreciate the apology, but that doesn't help my production/build schedule. The problem is I was told they had the batteries in stock ready to ship in January, needed them in February, and was supposed to be leaving the country in March....but the car needs to be finished before I leave. That is a problem.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

CFreeman54,
I'm not sure what happened, as I'm not onsite at the warehouse, but I have checked into it and cells have shipped. I wasn't aware of this until today, appologies.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

CFreeman54 said:


> Yes, I understand the problems faced by a company importing batteries, and I apreciate the apology, but that doesn't help my production/build schedule. The problem is I was told they had the batteries in stock ready to ship in January, needed them in February, and was supposed to be leaving the country in March....but the car needs to be finished before I leave. That is a problem.


I hear you, brother. I've had multiple discussions with the folks at EVComponents about their need to improve their communications with customers and their internal processes, but to no avail.

Summary: I ordered my batteries from EVComponents in September. I got them yesterday, a week shy of 6 months after ordering. But my zilla and charger are nowhere to be found. Throughout this long, painful process, I've consistently had to initiate communication to find out what was going on. Every time estimate they've given me has been wrong, whether it be for when things would be shipped, when they would clear customs, or when they would be produced.

They can make all the excuses they want, but at the end of the day, their service is terrible, and I've seen no concrete evidence that they care one whit about changing it. Inventory pipelines might be improved with increased capital, but giving a damn about their customers doesn't take piles of money. 

If I could go back and tell the me of six months ago what to do, I'd tell me not to get involved with EV Components. It's not worth the hassle.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2010)

I've had perfect service.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Although I work remotely, I try to give quick replies and help for those that contact me... I realize there have been some problems. Its hard, because I don't see some of them since they're not directed towards my email.

In the last month, I do know that we've refocused our strategy more towards customer service and quicker shipping times..... we're working with the manufacturers on getting a stock of cells so that these leadtimes are reduced. Its a major undertaking and we're working to get existing orders finished.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

frodus said:


> In the last month, I do know that we've refocused our strategy more towards customer service and quicker shipping times..... we're working with the manufacturers on getting a stock of cells so that these leadtimes are reduced. Its a major undertaking and we're working to get existing orders finished.


If you're replying to my note, an infinite stock of cells would have made no difference. EV Components really needs to focus on internal process, track existing orders, and proactively communicate with customers. None of that depends on a larger stock of cells. 

But I've said this all directly to James, and nothing has changed.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

sjc said:


> If you're replying to my note, an infinite stock of cells would have made no difference. EV Components really needs to focus on internal process, track existing orders, and proactively communicate with customers. None of that depends on a larger stock of cells.
> 
> But I've said this all directly to James, and nothing has changed.


That's why I said we're focusing with respect "customer service". We intend to do both that and increase stock. Once we reduce leadtimes, there should be less calls asking where the cells are. Two different, but interrelated problems.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

frodus said:


> That's why I said we're focusing with respect "customer service". We intend to do both that and increase stock. Once we reduce leadtimes, there should be less calls asking where the cells are. Two different, but interrelated problems.


I agree. If the cells were in stock more often, that would reduce the complexity of this process and would result in quicker delivery times and happier customers. 

However, it is quite impossible to keep cells in stock. We can get a call at any moment cleaning us out of 100% of the cells of a particular size.

This is not a Walmart product that is here is such huge volume that you can pick it up any day in exactly the configuration, quantity and size you desire.

When we place bulk orders with ThunderSky, they don't even have the cells in stock. It often takes 3-4 weeks for production before our containers even are prepared for export from China.

The logistics involved with production and shipping cells is daunting. These are heavy battery pallets.
That is not meant to be an excuse. It is the reality of what we are doing.

We have hundreds of active customers (over 1,000 since we started) and only 8 employees.

We are doing the best we can with the reality of the situation that we are in. I hope our customers can be patient with us as we improve our process with experience.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

sjc said:


> Summary: I ordered my batteries from EVComponents in September. I got them yesterday, a week shy of 6 months after ordering. But my zilla and charger are nowhere to be found.


Steve's cells were here in December and were ready for shipping back then. It is misleading for him to state that it took six months. Those cells could have been shipped months ago, but were held at his request.

At his request we did not ship them at that time because the Zilla was not yet ready. There is a backlog on Zilla production. We were also waiting on our shipment of chargers.

His cells has now been shipped to him and he received them.

We are sending him a refund for the remainder of his order. 
I do not need the grief any more. 

As I understand it, there was plenty of communication between Steve and Tracy (our shipping manager).


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

As a service to those planning conversions can you let everyone know what the estimated backlog time is on the various Zilla models? (they all show as pre-order on the site) This has always been a long lead time item so I certainly understand, but rough time tables help people decide when to order various parts so things come together as smooth as possible.

As a note to people doing conversions, these project rarely ever fall together right on schedule. A few senior builders that have their own stock of parts and plenty of experience get pretty close. We are using plenty of fairly low production volume parts.

To EVcomponents, customer communication is the area to work on. Some standard e-mails that can go out BCC to groups of customers to keep them informed on the status of the longer lead time orders (batteries, controller, or whatever part is held up) would help. The prices are good (the best I've seen on Lithium batteries) and my experience is that batteries arrived very close to when I was initially told, some 3 months earlier. A bulk e-mail to customers of a battery order saying the batteries have shipped and are expected in X number of weeks, then one to say the order has arrived in EVCs hands and over the next few days will be sorted and inspected after which you will be contacted for pickup or shipping of cells, would go a long way to keeping customers informed (then they wouldn't be sending so many e-mails


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

EVfun said:


> As a service to those planning conversions can you let everyone know what the estimated backlog time is on the various Zilla models? (they all show as pre-order on the site) This has always been a long lead time item so I certainly understand, but rough time tables help people decide when to order various parts so things come together as smooth as possible.


I have been told by our production manager that we have a 30 day backlog on Z1K controllers right now. 
So just plan on 45-60 days just in case.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

the zilla availability news sounds as important as the battery shipment updates. I would second the opinion that it would be a great improvement to have a page somewhere on the evcomponents.com website where we could look for shipment status.... perhaps not even customer specific notification, but at least 'order went out to china', 'left china', in port','in warehouse' 'began shipping to customers'.....

Having investing almost $5k, I wanna know where those suckers are and when I am gonna get'em!


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> Steve's cells were here in December and were ready for shipping back then. It is misleading for him to state that it took six months. Those cells could have been shipped months ago, but were held at his request.


Two corrections:

1) The first communication I received that my cells were in was on 6 Jan 2010, from Tracy (the shipping manager). I can't say when the cells arrived at EVComponents, I only know when they notified me (I'd paid for them back in September and November).

2) In that message, he asked whether I wanted my cells then, or with my Zilla at the end of the month. I agreed to the few extra weeks' wait (but definitely did not request a delay).

For my part, I was not focusing on how long the cells took to arrive, but rather that after waiting that long, I still hadn't received my entire order. I'm sorry James has chosen to take this path. I must say I'm surprised, also, given that Sunday afternoon he offered to personally deliver the missing pieces to me in Seattle (where I was visiting). I'm not sure what prompted the switch to canceling rather than fulfilling my order.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

Our policy is to offer refunds to customers if they are unhappy with the amount of time it takes for delivery. If you are not happy, then that is the best I can offer.

Your refund is being processed on the items from your order that were not yet delivered.


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## Tahoe Tim (Feb 20, 2010)

"I'm not sure what prompted the switch to canceling rather than fulfilling my order."

Really??? go back and read your posts. The only purpose of your posts is to discredit EV. Maybe you should have imported your cells yourself. I am a business owner and deal with people like you from time to time. Airing your dirty laundry in public and NOT telling the complete truth would get the exact same reaction from me. I would be interested to know what line of work your in.

Edit - I discovered in your profile that you are a professor of computer science. Wow! The students you educate have gone on to write code that has cost nearly every human grief. But of course that's out of your control - just like ev's situation importing batteries from around the world. I think you owe them an apology.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

lets get back to POSITIVE comments.... and ask if perhaps EvComponents could start a status thread just with general order status, perhaps in the classified topic area, or anywhere really.

Perhaps one thread for each bulk order, when it goes out, in port, to warehouse, shipping to customers, etc ?

possible?


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> lets get back to POSITIVE comments.... and ask if perhaps EvComponents could start a status thread just with general order status, perhaps in the classified topic area, or anywhere really.
> 
> Perhaps one thread for each bulk order, when it goes out, in port, to warehouse, shipping to customers, etc ?
> 
> possible?


I tried to do that in 2009 and we were criticized for using the forums for sales too much. 

We are going to be building a section of our new website with container update status.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> 1) The first communication I received that my cells were in was on 6 Jan 2010, from Tracy (the shipping manager). I can't say when the cells arrived at EVComponents, I only know when they notified me (I'd paid for them back in September and November).


We told you when they came in..... You paid in November for the batteries. We get batteries within 6-10 weeks, thats within our quoted time limit. Zilla backlog is another thing customers need to understand. 



> 2) In that message, he asked whether I wanted my cells then, or with my Zilla at the end of the month. I agreed to the few extra weeks' wait (but definitely did not request a delay).


There's a backlog for zillas. Always has been, not just when we started building them. You requested that we ship together, we allowed that request and waited to ship.




> For my part, I was not focusing on how long the cells took to arrive, but rather that after waiting that long, I still hadn't received my entire order.


It took "that long" because of the zilla backlog, not because of slow shipping.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> I tried to do that in 2009 and we were criticized for using the forums for sales too much.
> 
> We are going to be building a section of our new website with container update status.


ok... I was thinking you could use the 'parts vendors' category and be on-topic.  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/parts-vendors-9.html

or.... if you want to have it on YOUR site that would be even better. Let me know if you need help implementing that, I do websites, and there are a number of different ways you could handle this with very low cost and be able to edit it yourself.

Depending on your Host, you might be able to fire up a Forum, and set preferences so that basically you are the only one able to add or reply to use it as a news vehicle.

There are other ways to build self-edit areas on specific webpages so you could update and not mess up the rest of the page....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVComponents said:


> I tried to do that in 2009 and we were criticized for using the forums for sales too much.


I don't think there would be any objection to a thread in the vendors section with updates. You can always clear it with the forum owner if you think there is really a concern, but the information you would provide is obviously a service to forum members waiting on their orders.


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## CFreeman54 (Jan 14, 2009)

My Thundersky batteries arrived in good order Tuesday afternoon and I have been "busy as a beaver" working on the car since. What can I say...better late than....oh never mind.


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## EVComponents (Apr 20, 2009)

dtbaker said:


> or.... if you want to have it on YOUR site that would be even better. Let me know if you need help implementing that, I do websites, and there are a number of different ways you could handle this with very low cost and be able to edit it yourself.


We have released our new website. There is a section where we update the status of battery orders and try to provide estimates of when future cells will be arriving that might fit your needs.

http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=13

We are also at the point where we have sufficient capital to pre-order large quantities of cells in advance. For example, we have a large quantity of ThunderSky cells finishing production right now that will be arriving in Seattle in late April (4 weeks). These are mostly unsold at this point in time.

Our container for early April is fully sold out.
Our container for late April is mostly available (ThunderSky 40 Ah, 60 Ah, 100 Ah, 200 Ah)


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

I like the new site.

Quick clarification please:

The Thundersky US is not Made in USA but from your current stock in your warehouse?

MJ


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

If you go to the actual battery page, it states the following:



> USA prices already reflect the costs of importing the cells. Select *[From USA]* if you are located in the United States.
> If you are ordering from another country (example: Europe, Australia, Canada) select *[From China]*. This will result in your order shipping directly from China to your nearest port. This avoids duties in the USA.​



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