# [EVDL] no active bms



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So I've been trying to decide between mini-bms and an EMUS bms.
I've read some of Jack's material and talked to various folks.

I'm starting to think that shunt balancing may not
be a good idea. It allows you to balance voltages, but not necessarily e=
nergy storage.
I'm not sure if voltage balancing is that kind of balancing you actually wa=
nt. 

I'm just starting to really think through this as I read pros/cons on BMS.
Since Li batteries in cars is still pretty new, I think it makes total sens=
e to monitor
voltages and perhaps temperature of the individual cells. I'm not sure it m=
akes sense
to actively do anything other than turn off the charger once a cell reaches=
max voltage
(3.6V for Calb, for example) or warn the controller if a min voltage is rea=
ched.

So I'm considering mini-bms and removing the shunt resistors. 

I realize that this is not a new topic, but what I'd like to questions is "=
what is balancing?"
Is it voltage? It it charge (all the batteries see the same current duri=
ng charging w/out active
balancing).

thanks!
-ben
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The ideal balancing circuit would keep all cells at the same SOC at
all times regardless of capacity and cell drift. This is mostly not
practically achievable since it would mean charging and discharging
individual cells, think a bidirectional DCDC on each cell. Knowing the
exact SOC of individual cells at all times is also very difficult.

What we settle for is keeping the cells balanced enough that the
lowest capacity cell is limiting your discharge as well as your
charge, as long as this is the case there is not much need to muck
with the cells at all.

Brute force balancers such as voltage triggered shunt balancers
achieve it by always top balancing the cells whenever you charge the
pack full. I'm not convinced that's a good idea at all, it is the
cheap way to go, but prone to faults that leads to cell failure,
especially if the shunt balancers are poorly designed and don't
consider all failure modes.

More intelligent shunt balancers monitor the voltage and SOC of all
cells over one or more cycles and intelligently decide which shunts to
turn on in order to keep the pack in check. Such designs can have much
smaller shunt resistors since they can balance 24/7 and not just at
the end of charge.

As a hobbyist willing to work on your car and do the occasional manual
balancing all you really need is cell voltage monitoring to tell you
when it's time for pack maintenance, and of course with automatic high
and low cutoffs. I wouldn't trust a blind cell voltage monitor though,
you want something that will display the cell voltages to you so that
you can tell if it's measuring the voltage correctly and still
operating. If a miniBMS node blows an ADC and measures a static
voltage you'll have no idea until it's too late.

Temperature monitoring is also very important, it's you first line of
defense when something goes wrong.

I know this is a religious topic with lots of strong opinions so let
me just say that what I wrote above is my opinion based on 6 years of
designing and testing BMSs and batterypacks for aerospace and
automotive applications, and based on my experience driving a
partially lithium powered car with my own BMS design.





On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ben Jarrett <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>
>
> So I've been trying to decide between mini-bms and an EMUS bms.
> I've read some of Jack's material and talked to various folks.
>
> I'm starting to think that shunt balancing may not
> be a good idea. It allows you to balance voltages, but not necessarily=
energy storage.
> I'm not sure if voltage balancing is that kind of balancing you actually =
want.
>
> I'm just starting to really think through this as I read pros/cons on BMS.
> Since Li batteries in cars is still pretty new, I think it makes total se=
nse to monitor
> voltages and perhaps temperature of the individual cells. I'm not sure it=
makes sense
> to actively do anything other than turn off the charger once a cell reach=
es max voltage
> (3.6V for Calb, for example) or warn the controller if a min voltage is r=
eached.
>
> So I'm considering mini-bms and removing the shunt resistors.
>
> I realize that this is not a new topic, but what I'd like to questions is=
"what is balancing?"
> Is it voltage? It it charge (all the batteries see the same current du=
ring charging w/out active
> balancing).
>
> thanks!
> -ben
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20111021/3c8032=
75/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> | CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

www.electric-lemon.com

_______________________________________________
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Monitoring SOC on individual cells turns out to be impractical for 
LiFePO4 because the cell voltage is virtually flat. However, the 
self-discharge is tiny, so very little balance current is actually required.

A low-quality "bargain" BMS is like buying a low-quality "bargain" 
parachute. You want to spend a few extra dollars on the proven, 
reliable, high-quality BMS (and parachute.)

Forgoing the parachute or the BMS is not really a good idea.

At 11:25 AM 10/21/2011, you wrote:
>The ideal balancing circuit would keep all cells at the same SOC at
>all times regardless of capacity and cell drift. This is mostly not
>practically achievable since it would mean charging and discharging
>individual cells, think a bidirectional DCDC on each cell. Knowing the
>exact SOC of individual cells at all times is also very difficult.
>
>What we settle for is keeping the cells balanced enough that the
>lowest capacity cell is limiting your discharge as well as your
>charge, as long as this is the case there is not much need to muck
>with the cells at all.
>
>Brute force balancers such as voltage triggered shunt balancers
>achieve it by always top balancing the cells whenever you charge the
>pack full. I'm not convinced that's a good idea at all, it is the
>cheap way to go, but prone to faults that leads to cell failure,
>especially if the shunt balancers are poorly designed and don't
>consider all failure modes.
>
>More intelligent shunt balancers monitor the voltage and SOC of all
>cells over one or more cycles and intelligently decide which shunts to
>turn on in order to keep the pack in check. Such designs can have much
>smaller shunt resistors since they can balance 24/7 and not just at
>the end of charge.
>
>As a hobbyist willing to work on your car and do the occasional manual
>balancing all you really need is cell voltage monitoring to tell you
>when it's time for pack maintenance, and of course with automatic high
>and low cutoffs. I wouldn't trust a blind cell voltage monitor though,
>you want something that will display the cell voltages to you so that
>you can tell if it's measuring the voltage correctly and still
>operating. If a miniBMS node blows an ADC and measures a static
>voltage you'll have no idea until it's too late.
>
>Temperature monitoring is also very important, it's you first line of
>defense when something goes wrong.
>
>I know this is a religious topic with lots of strong opinions so let
>me just say that what I wrote above is my opinion based on 6 years of
>designing and testing BMSs and batterypacks for aerospace and
>automotive applications, and based on my experience driving a
>partially lithium powered car with my own BMS design.
>
>
>
>
>
>


> Ben Jarrett <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > So I've been trying to decide between mini-bms and an EMUS bms.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It requires a lot more intelligent algorithms than just looking at the
voltage. Difficult, yes.

I think we're otherwise in agreement.



> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Monitoring SOC on individual cells turns out to be impractical for
> > LiFePO4 because the cell voltage is virtually flat. However, the
> > self-discharge is tiny, so very little balance current is actually requir=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > There is more than one battery manufacturer that will not sell cells
> > to you if you do not have a BMS. They _require_ a BMS in all
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Bill Dube <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:44, Robert MacDowell wrote:
> 
> > That's the opposite of the battery I just worked with this week. It
> > is 12V (10 cells) about 200 pounds and 40-50 years old. It had been
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> There is more than one battery manufacturer that will not sell cells
>> to you if you do not have a BMS. They _require_ a BMS in all
>> applications. This should tell you something.



> Robert MacDowell wrote:
> > That's the opposite of the battery I just worked with this week. It is 12V
> > (10 cells) about 200 pounds and 40-50 years old... neglected since 1988...
> > it still handles loads just fine...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Oct 2011 at 17:17, Chris Zach wrote:
> 
> > Speaking of which, anyone got a set of 100ah SAFT NICds? I would be so
> > more than glad to take them off your hands....
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

.
>
> Yeah, but Bill is talking about lithium based cells. I'm gathering your cells weren't lithium if 
> they were that old.
>

Back from the future... 

_______________________________________________
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|
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As if no one in the field has yet seen this patent document:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090218986.pdf



Anyway.. the active data collection to draft out the algorithms for
better management methods is essential (in my opinion) since there are
always some differences in the cells (manufacturing patches,
chemistry, new innovations, etc.). You can actually modify the cell
properties by using them (wearing off) unevenly and eventually calls
become more and more identical. This seems to work well with LCP cells
that are more fragile than LFP.

Now.. does the LFP cells in EVs already deliver crushing numbers
against ICEs ? Pretty much so unless you intentionally murder the
cells with No- or Poor-BMS -strategy. What is the "next step" in BMS
and batteries.

I feel now strongly that it is in the recycling and reusing the cell
materials. Next big thing to me is to find the right way to finish-off
the cells when they are ready to be dismantled and recycled. Most of
the materials in the cell can be used just as they are over and over
again. So why go for the virginity and not use proven old-good ? And
pay more and more to the same IPR-pool ?

So how much more effective investment for EV hobbyist it would be to
use recycled materials and pay 20% the price of new cells ? Could the
grass-root level still be doing the wonderful work with prices and
resources big industry is crying for ? Too many questions ? Ok.. I'll
stop here. 

About the "Einstein" BMS. Is it really bad-bad if the BMS is 10% of
the price of the whole pack ? We could do that already 6 years ago.
With 20W DC/DC on every cell with controller logic. The actual wisdom
was shared between our work remotely over wireless data transfers and
local Embedded Linux PC. Biggest issue was the energy consumption of
the system which was about 50 W continuously. But we gained a lot of
knowledge from real application usage. Few of the vehicles are STILL
running after 7 years (or so). LCP cells are also used 

So.. we've had Apple MiniMac PCs in the vehicles for 7 years and they
are still running with the original Linux SW. And some super experts
shoot us down telling us our setups are most unreliable stuff they've
ever seen. HA!

I'll wrote more about the experiences as soon as I have more time.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/10/22 Lee Hart <[email protected]>:


> > jukka j=E4rvinen wrote:
> >> Ah ! This is wonderfull Peter. Our 'SOC' camp is getting larger.
> >>
> >> You do not need to keep the cells in exact same soc in the early days
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm curious what the consequence of this patent is? Does it negate the =

possibility of anyone else "inventing" such a technology without paying =

royalties to said patent holder?



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > As if no one in the field has yet seen this patent document:
> > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090218986.pdf
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Mark,

I have the opinion that this patent will do nothing to
promote or reduce the use of BMS'es and - sorry for Jukka -
it is again my opinion that his patent has zero value with
maybe an exception for claim 12.
The way that Patents work is that you can claim something
and you can defend it *only* if there has not been a public
presentation of the subject that has taken place before the
Priority Date of the invention.
In addition, anyone who has something that would fall under
the claims, already developed and/or selling in products,
by the Priority Date, can continue to do so after the Patent
is awarded without infringing, because the Patent does not
give rights on things that already exist.

Now, looking through the claims, I recognise the general
operation of a Battery Management System and one of those
that has been published widely and certainly before the
2007 Prio Date of this patent is the Lee Hart Battery Balancer.
So, that takes care of the claims 1 - 11 because they all
either call on claim 1 or describe directly that they work
on individual cells to monitor and influence their relative
properties (such as state of charge).

Only claim 12 is something that I am not sure if it has not
been published before, having the central management part of
the BMS running on a remote server.

Since Patents can be a tricky proposition in relation to
your business (NOTE that you can always build the device as
claimed in the Patent for your own use without infringing,
even building it with the purpose of improving it so you
do no longer infringe this patent and you can actually file for
your own patent, can never be forbidden. You cannot manufacture
and sell the claimed inventions without infringing, but then
there is the situation that I described here, whether the
patent has actually any value and can be defended depends on
whether you can prove there is already "Prior Art" that makes
the patent claims which you infringe, void.
So - don't just rely on my words, get a patent lawyer or other
professional advice as I do not accept liability for following
what I present here as my opinion, because I am not a lawyer.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of mark at evie-systems
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 3:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms

I'm curious what the consequence of this patent is? Does it negate the pos=
sibility of anyone else "inventing" such a technology without paying royalt=
ies to said patent holder?



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > As if no one in the field has yet seen this patent document:
> > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090218986.pdf
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*by their very definition* are patents incentives to improve,
that is the main reason that they must be published and the
reason that some people choose to keep things a secret
instead of completely revealing them in a patent.
In fact, I have seen patents where the invention was
deliberately described incorrectly, as to lead others
astray instead of helping them to improve on the patent.
Certainly against the spirit of the patent process...

The reason for the protection that the patent offers is
indeed to allow you to earn back the resources you poured
into the development of the patented technology, even though that
often should be measured in months instead of in years as the
patent protection is wayyy to long to promote quick development
for the patent holder.

But I have often read patents with an eye towards
"learning and improving" (read: dodging the claims) for
the various companies where I have worked.
That is one way to stimulate improvements...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of jukka j=E4rvinen
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 6:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms

I hope that in this forum it would bring in a bit more info what has been a=
lready done in the field. I have nothing to do anymore with the company whi=
ch holds the patent. What it comes to patents in general that is another qu=
estion. I think they are supposed to bring some sort of monopoly to the pat=
ent holder. I do admit that it would be wonderfull to be able to pay back t=
he research work of dozens of people over several years. =

Now.. It is always possible to make things better. Should we put our effort=
s on that ?
-akkuJukka
@my N8
---- alkuper=E4inen viesti ----
L=E4hett.: mark at evie-systems
L=E4het.: 22.10.2011, 12:48
Vast.ott.: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Aihe: Re: [EVDL] no active bms


I'm curious what the consequence of this patent is? Does it negate the =

possibility of anyone else "inventing" such a technology without paying =

royalties to said patent holder?



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > As if no one in the field has yet seen this patent document:
> > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090218986.pdf
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Peter,
I think you and I are in perfect agreement here:
- Monitor cells (no balancing, no energy dissipated)
- determine when a cell needs to be protected
(either charge or discharge) and shut the action down
(limp mode/shutdown; re-gen and charger disable)
- warn user for battery maintenance (or thermal shutdown)
- avoid harm.
- no built-in shunt balancing, cells will be balanced as
part of the maintenance procedure
I have ideas for using a BMS like this on Li-Ion cells in
several appliances, unfortunately too little time to work
on making the products see the light of day...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 =


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Peter Gabrielsson
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 10:56 PM
To: Ben Jarrett; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms

The ideal balancing circuit would keep all cells at the same SOC at all tim=
es regardless of capacity and cell drift. This is mostly not practically ac=
hievable since it would mean charging and discharging individual cells, thi=
nk a bidirectional DCDC on each cell. Knowing the exact SOC of individual c=
ells at all times is also very difficult.

What we settle for is keeping the cells balanced enough that the lowest cap=
acity cell is limiting your discharge as well as your charge, as long as th=
is is the case there is not much need to muck with the cells at all.

Brute force balancers such as voltage triggered shunt balancers achieve it =
by always top balancing the cells whenever you charge the pack full. I'm no=
t convinced that's a good idea at all, it is the cheap way to go, but prone=
to faults that leads to cell failure, especially if the shunt balancers ar=
e poorly designed and don't consider all failure modes.

More intelligent shunt balancers monitor the voltage and SOC of all cells o=
ver one or more cycles and intelligently decide which shunts to turn on in =
order to keep the pack in check. Such designs can have much smaller shunt r=
esistors since they can balance 24/7 and not just at the end of charge.

As a hobbyist willing to work on your car and do the occasional manual bala=
ncing all you really need is cell voltage monitoring to tell you when it's =
time for pack maintenance, and of course with automatic high and low cutoff=
s. I wouldn't trust a blind cell voltage monitor though, you want something=
that will display the cell voltages to you so that you can tell if it's me=
asuring the voltage correctly and still operating. If a miniBMS node blows =
an ADC and measures a static voltage you'll have no idea until it's too lat=
e.

Temperature monitoring is also very important, it's you first line of defen=
se when something goes wrong.

I know this is a religious topic with lots of strong opinions so let me jus=
t say that what I wrote above is my opinion based on 6 years of designing a=
nd testing BMSs and batterypacks for aerospace and automotive applications,=
and based on my experience driving a partially lithium powered car with my=
own BMS design.





On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Ben Jarrett <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
>
>
> So I've been trying to decide between mini-bms and an EMUS bms.
> I've read some of Jack's material and talked to various folks.
>
> I'm starting to think that shunt balancing may not be a good idea. It =

> allows you to balance voltages, but not necessarily energy storage.
> I'm not sure if voltage balancing is that kind of balancing you actually =
want.
>
> I'm just starting to really think through this as I read pros/cons on BMS.
> Since Li batteries in cars is still pretty new, I think it makes total =

> sense to monitor voltages and perhaps temperature of the individual =

> cells. I'm not sure it makes sense to actively do anything other than =

> turn off the charger once a cell reaches max voltage (3.6V for Calb, for =
example) or warn the controller if a min voltage is reached.
>
> So I'm considering mini-bms and removing the shunt resistors.
>
> I realize that this is not a new topic, but what I'd like to questions is=
"what is balancing?"
> Is it voltage? It it charge (all the batteries see the same current =

> during charging w/out active balancing).
>
> thanks!
> -ben
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was =

> scrubbed...
> URL: =

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www.electric-lemon.com

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

.. and how could we know if Nikola Tesla him self did all this already CENTURY ago ??


_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have it! How do I build it? How do I bring it to market? It is 
micro-scale (402 resistors and caps) very very small. Nearly impossible 
to hand build (though I've built a few). It's smart, distributed, 
expandable, adaptable. I've love to build and sell it but the money 
required to 'manufacture' it is a real show stopper. How do I get past 
that?

>
> But, what if instead we have an Einstein battery manager? It can take a
> random collection of cells, monitor each one, and charge/discharge it as
> needed to keep the whole pack in balance. Now we can use these early
> "prototype" cells, long before the big manufacturers can! We have our
> long-range high-performance EVs *today*, and don't have to wait for the
> big automakers to "perfect" it.
>

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You really take an admirable, honorable position, Lee (referring to
publishing your work). =


There is one more case, though, for getting a patent: if you have something
really desirable, someone may buy the rights for a worthwhile sum. That
means they either are bluffed by the unloaded gun or just want to do it
right. This does happen, though the other side is far more common - having
to sue to defend your patent.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: 22 October, 2011 9:11 AM
To: jukka j=E4rvinen; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms



> jukka j=E4rvinen wrote:
> > I agree that the claims have been made quite broad but that was how =
> 
> > patent lawyers saw best to do. This was january 2005 and we filed it =
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee wrote:
> Let's say you have a battery that is promising, but there are big
> variations. Each batch is different; in fact, the performance of each
> cell in a batch is different! This is a hopeless situation for a large
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You have summarized my analysis of the 'problem' exactly! Guess what is 
the first question I get asked when talking to industry leaders (like 
the people in this group here) about what I have... "can you lower the 
price?" Same question, Always!

No, I can't.

Oh well... it will sit, I suppose.

I bought a solar-panel kit, from Harbor Freight. Chinese importer, eh? 
This kit comes with a digital control panel, with 5v, 9v, 12v outputs, 
cigarette lighter adapter, digital voltage display, two (count-em two) 
12v florescent lights, yadda yadda, 3 big panels. I probably paid $100 
for it? I don't remember. I opened the little metal box of 
"electronics". Holy Hanna, I couldn't buy the connectors they had 
packed in there let alone anything else that came in that kit and turn 
around and sell it for that price!

If there is a way for me to manufacture this "product line" I've put 
together, I'll do it. For now, the path escapes me.

>
> "Aye! There's the rub!"
>
> For this model to work, EVers need to get out of the "cheap is
> best" mindset, and realize that paying more to people whose
> work they want to support and encourage helps not only
> themselves, but the entire EV movement.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2Cg==


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You hit the nail on the head there, Lee! I have also been down that road, if
I had the money from royalties that is legally owing I would be rich, when
you get into the "big money league" nothing works the way you think, funny
things happen, like Lawyers just stop talking to you after taking your
money. SKF is still building my bearing heater but I have not had anything
for 10 years or so.... and they just ignore me too. There is another guy in
between as well
I think originally patents may have encouraged people to develop
things but now as you say, patents actually hinder development. Sometimes
companies buy patents to just stop others making it. I work with standards
quite a bit, often a company with make a silly patent, but then get of a
standards committee and make it so you have to use their patent to meet the
standard, and you have to meet that standard to sell anything in your line
of business.
When I get a patentable idea now I find a forum to publish it on,
what way at least I can make it without someone else patenting it. In my job
it is different though, I get a bottle of wine for a patent!




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> I *have* gotten patents, and they didn't earn me a nickel. Without the
> lawyers to threaten, nobody will pay any attention to you. Even with the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have a nice little shop just up the road (in upper Egypt, where the 
rent is still nothing) that can build them. He can do parts down to 201 
though the smallest I have is 402. Still small! Real tricky to hand 
solder. I really should go see him and see if he wants to partner up on 
the project. He might.

I wish I knew if there was strong enough interest for it.




> Jay Summet wrote:
> >
> > You need to find a partner who has experience manufacturing small runs
> > of electronic parts. They can tell you how much money it will take (I'm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So...

In my case, I'm not just looking to save a buck on my bms. I'm trying to=
avoid
buying something that's going to be buggy because of it's own complexity. =
I've
been talking to one person with the EMUS and they say it sometimes has trou=
ble
communicating between the cell modules and the head module. This is the =
type
of stuff that concerns me.

I've not heard any negatives about the mini bms. In fact, I've actually =
gotten
recommendations for it.

So I'm wondering if I disable the shunting on it, would I actually do damage
to my batteries? I would never under or over change them. I just migh=
t not max
out the charge. 

Or should I just let the mini-bms do it's thing and go on with my life?

thanks,
-ben
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

People seem to have forgotten your original post. I think you can still
order the minibms without shunts. That is the way I ordered it about 2
years ago. I ran that way for about a year, then added shunts and use them
to top balance a bit (just several higher cells) once in a while. Other
than that I've not had to do any balancing of 32 of the cells, just four
that are not part of the original pack which seem to like to run about 0.03V
or so less than the others. I individually charge those up every few
months, but they just go back to the offset in short order and seem to stay
there. I've had the HVC shut off the charger a few times, but usually the
charger shuts off before a cell hits HVC. If you use a charger like an
Elcon with a voltage limit that is less than the product of your number of
cells and the shunt voltage, the latter will always be the case unless the
charger fails in some way. The HVC is backup in case this should occur. 
I've never hit LVC as I haven't gone below about 28% SOC, usually greater
than 35%.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> tomw wrote:
> > People seem to have forgotten your original post. I think you can still
> > order the minibms without shunts. That is the way I ordered it about 2
> > years ago. I ran that way for about a year, then added shunts and use them
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are talking about a lead-acid battery, right?

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert MacDowell" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms


> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Bill Dube <[email protected]> 


> > wrote:
> >
> >> There is more than one battery manufacturer that will not sell cells
> >> to you if you do not have a BMS. They _require_ a BMS in all
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There can be an issue with the miniBMS without the shunt. You might be able
to get around it if you're careful, but you will have to pay attention. I
actually ran my pack in this state (with the miniBMS and its shunt), so I
know the trouble you can get.

If your pack is well top-balanced, and your charger shuts off automatically,
it shouldn't be a problem to have the miniBMS without shunts. The monitors
will be there for each cell as extra insurance. If a cell gets too high
during charging, the miniBMS control board will shut off the charger. If a
cell gets too low during discharge, the miniBMS control board will alert
you.

The problem comes if your pack is not top-balanced. In the worst case, your
charger may still be in its bulk charge state when the first cell gets too
high and tells the miniBMS controller to turn off the charger. This will
protect your cells, but you won't know the difference in capacity between
that top-charged cell and the lowest-charged cell. If that difference is
growing over time, you might be getting closer to draining the lowest-charge
cell than you realize. =


The reality is that you aren't either top-balanced or bottom-balanced at
that point.

If this situation continues too long, you might find out one day, using a
little more capacity than normal, that you don't have as much as you
thought.

I had an unbalanced pack when I first bought my pre-owned conversion. I
thought it was balanced, but that was mostly being na=EFve. The miniBMS was
always shutting off the charger. Even with the shunts, the bypassing wasn't
happening enough to balance the pack. One day, I drove near what I knew was
the limit and found it was a few miles less than I thought. Unfortunately,
I couldn't hear the miniBMS alert at highway speeds. I took 2 cells to zero
volts. I've babied them and they seemed to have recovered, (6 months now),
but we'll see later in their life.

After a few times topping up all the cells with a RC model charger, I was
finally top balanced. My shunts are doing a very nice job of keeping the
cells top balanced. I found out from that charger that I had a 20%
difference between most full and most empty cells.

If you go without the shunts, I would highly recommend doing something
similar to make sure everything is balanced to start. It might take 3-4
times with the top-up charger. Repeat as often as necessary. I don't know
how often that is. I use the shunts to do that.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Ben Jarrett
> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 7:37 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms
> =

> =

> =

> =

> So...
> =

> In my case, I'm not just looking to save a buck on my bms. I'm trying =
to
avoid
> buying something that's going to be buggy because of it's own
> complexity. I've been talking to one person with the EMUS and they say=
it
> sometimes has trouble communicating between the cell modules and the
> head module. This is the type of stuff that concerns me.
> =

> I've not heard any negatives about the mini bms. In fact, I've actually
gotten
> recommendations for it.
> =

> So I'm wondering if I disable the shunting on it, would I actually do
damage to
> my batteries? I would never under or over change them. I just might=
not
> max out the charge.
> =

> Or should I just let the mini-bms do it's thing and go on with my life?
> =

> thanks,
> -ben


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

FIne, but a BMonS (monitoring only) or a BManS (management - ie 
balancing only) or a combo BMMS, that is what Ben is struggling with 
and it is a very good question. I have stated my views on the subject 
here recently so won't bore you all with it again.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
> > There is more than one battery manufacturer that will not sell cells
> > to you if you do not have a BMS. They _require_ a BMS in all
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, you need to know how balanced your pack is of course with any bms. I
ran with the pack bottom balanced when using the minibms without shunts. I
checked which cells hit HVC first (with a dvm) then set the voltage limit on
my Manzanita charger so it would shut off when the highest voltage (lowest
capacity) cell got to about 3.45V (CALB cells). The Manzanitas are a
special case though, as when run using the timer they continue charging
after the voltage limit is hit, but they don't hold the voltage constant. 
The voltage rises 2-3 Volt before the charger cuts back current appreciably. 
If bottom balanced, and only one cell is near the upper exponential part of
the charge curve near end of charge, this can result in overcharge of that
cell without a bms to shut off the charger. If the voltage limit is set so
the charger times out when that cells hits 3.45V at 60 F cell temperature,
then it will overcharge at 80 F cell temperature (or the bms will shut it
off when it hits HVC, 3.6V for the minibms). How much it overcharges or
undercharges is a very predictable function of temperature. That is why I
specified "a charger like an Elcon". These and Zivans reach their limit
voltage and cut back current holding voltage constant, so they cannot
overcharge - unless they malfunction. 

The Manzanitas of course have the advantage that you can adjust the limit
voltage over a wide range and adjust the charging current. If you run the
pack top balanced the above isn't an issue since instead of one cell hitting
the exponential part of the curve there will be at least several, depending
on pack balance. There will then be a much larger change in pack voltage at
that point and the Manzanita will cut back its current to about zero over
the time it takes to add less than 1 Ah charge to the pack - since that is
enough to drive the pack voltage up by several volts with several cells on
the exponential part of the curve. It also is quite insensitive to
temperature since as soon as those cells start climbing the exponential part
of the curve there is a 2-4 V change in pack V with less than 1 Ah added
charge and the charger cuts back current to about zero. All that changes
with temperature is how long it keeps charging at close to zero amp (<
0.2A). I now generally start charging at night before I go to bed at a
charge current level so that it will be complete about an hour after I
arise. I always go out and check it near the end, and it always is charging
at less than 0.2A or so with several shunts on just before the charger times
out and shuts off, with cells at 60 to 98 F (I heat them to 60 in winter,
when parked). The shunts generally come on when the charger current is less
than 0.8A, and it quickly drops to 0.2 or less from that point. I would not
recommend running bottom balanced with a Manzanita for the above reasons
unless you set the limit voltage quite low to ensure the low capacity cell
is never overcharged at any temperature. This will mean the pack will
receive 10Ah or more lower charge when you charge at lower temperatures. And
the pack needs to be top balanced well enough so that at least 5 or 6 cells
reach the exponential part of the curve at nearly the same time to give the
required voltage rise for the Manzanita to cut back current.

I think the shunts on the minibms are safe since they shunt only about 3/4A
and each cell module is fused. After about 30 minutes shunting they feel
just barely warm.



> Mike wrote: "The problem comes if your pack is not top-balanced. In the
> worst case, your
> charger may still be in its bulk charge state when the first cell gets too
> high and tells the miniBMS controller to turn off the charger. This will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"Unfortunately, I couldn't hear the miniBMS alert at highway speeds."

It is quite noisy at highway speeds, so I have a buzzer mounted in a box on
the dash at the steering wheel so I can hear it. There is also a small
solid state relay in the box that turns on the "check engine" light on the
dash in an LVC event, and the throttle is cut by half. I tested it using a
normally closed momentary switch inserted in the bms chain, but I have never
hit LVC since I don't go below about 30% SOC, usually stay above 35%.

My brake vacuum assist developed a leak and the vacuum pump remained on
while I was driving on the highway. I can hear the pump at low speeds but
didn't hear it on the highway. I noticed it when I stopped and smoke
started pouring out from under the hood. The pump burned up its oil and
melted it's plastic muffler.

--
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> tomw wrote:
> > "Unfortunately, I couldn't hear the miniBMS alert at highway speeds."
> 
> I had that problem too. My EVPower box was mounted in the rear and I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee is right. You'll have a hard time finding the sales volumes to justify a high-volume production run. And the high-volume customers would want something custom and minimalist to get the job done, not a universal all-powerful solution. Your customers are probably just us hobbyists.

My company uses some local contract manufacturers for small volume stuff (even 20-30 of a board). Unfortunately, we do often end up paying a lot for it. Still, CMs can probably get better prices on parts than you can, and you have to count the cost of your own labor (or someone you pay) in $/hour to hand-build the boards. Most of the money you pay is fixed cost for their labor to program the machines and order the parts. Still, compared to your own labor costs, you'll probably find breakeven is in the 100's of parts, not the 100,000's. Shop around. See what you can find.

Hope this helps
-Ben

> From: mark at evie-systems <[email protected]>
> Date: October 22, 2011 4:18:42 PM EDT
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms
> Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> 
> 
> You're not telling me anything I haven't already thought about. I just haven't found that oceanliner builder that needs a bms... yet! Still looking... while at the same time I'm hoping someone is going to tell me about some miracle formula to make the thing a go. Not yet on that count either, eh?
> 
> About your patent... it's how a BMS should be built, and how I have put mine together as well (though I didn't do it by reading your patent. I did it just because it's just the RIGHT way TO do it). It's not rocket science, but my goodness, have I ever learnt a lesson or two about the economics of all of it.
> 
> Too bad I need to eat and require someplace to sleep. Maybe I should move out to lower Egypt like Wayne where the rent is nothing and eat beans for a year while I solder it all together one by one, LOL.
> 
> Look at this bad-boy! I'm damn proud of it (maybe too proud).
> 
> http://evie-systems.com/mvc8-with-LiFePo4-90-and-LCD01.png

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I did much the same thing. I left the buzzer under the hood, but replaced
it with a much louder one. I also wired the BMS alert to the oil pressure
light. I have sometimes triggered the low-voltage alert while accelerating
hard during cold weather. I can clearly hear the buzzer now, no matter how
fast I'm going.

It always pays to make sure the safety alerts are working and are
noticeable! 8^).

Mike.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of tomw
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms
> 
> "Unfortunately, I couldn't hear the miniBMS alert at highway speeds."
> 
> It is quite noisy at highway speeds, so I have a buzzer mounted in a box
on
> the dash at the steering wheel so I can hear it. There is also a small
solid
> state relay in the box that turns on the "check engine" light on the dash
in
> an LVC event, and the throttle is cut by half. I tested it using a
normally
> closed momentary switch inserted in the bms chain, but I have never hit
LVC
> since I don't go below about 30% SOC, usually stay above 35%.
> 
> My brake vacuum assist developed a leak and the vacuum pump remained
> on while I was driving on the highway. I can hear the pump at low speeds
> but didn't hear it on the highway. I noticed it when I stopped and smoke
> started pouring out from under the hood. The pump burned up its oil and
> melted it's plastic muffler.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/no-active-bms-tp3926075p3933162.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> |
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"My charging area is un-heated."

Mine is also un-heated. I have Farnum heater pads (kta-ev) under the cells
and leave them plugged in and set at 60F while parked in the garage. The
battery boxes are lined with 1/2" thick insulation. It is a metal building,
cold in winter and an oven in summer. Lot more efficient to heat the cells
than the entire garage. The 10 heaters use 350W when on.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's the problem as I see it. You system looks neat, and it would be cool
to see every cell in real time. But I don't need it, and so unless it was
really cheap I can't justify it. I'd rather spend the money on getting a
more closely matched pack to begin with, since a BMS is trying to compensate
for mis-matched cells.




> mark at evie-systems wrote:
> >
> > I have a nice little shop just up the road (in upper Egypt, where the
> > rent is still nothing) that can build them. He can do parts down to 201
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This year I set the Mazanita for 20 amp charging, disabled the timer
function, and set it to shut off at 123V, just under 3.42V per cell average. 
With my bottom balanced pack, all cells within 4% capacity of each other,
charging stops before any one cell gets above 3.45V and keeps the pack at a
lower SOC. If I need full range I'll just turn the charger back on and
lower the current. So far so good. I don't drive it in the winter but if I
did I'd have to adjust for lower temps. Probably wouldn't work with cells
that were more than 5% different in capacity, lower being better of course. 
Once you get within 2% or less it probably doesn't matter if you top or
bottom balance unless you are often taking the pack to extremes.




> tomw wrote:
> > I would not recommend running bottom balanced with a Manzanita for the
> > above reasons unless you set the limit voltage quite low to ensure the low
> > capacity cell is never overcharged at any temperature. This will mean the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you, Lee. I concur.



> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > The batteries may be perfectly balanced when new. But they will get
> > worse as they age. I'm worried that this will cause imbalances, which if
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You don't really need to know what each cell is doing all the time, you only
need to know there is a problem with the pack that needs investigation. 
There's even a guy who developed a split pack monitor that can tell you that
)
If that's not enough you could split it even further, but any finer
resolution than that seems somewhat pointless. An imbalance tells you there
is a problem that needs further investigation, unless you think cells will
be failing quite often you don't need the constant cell level information.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > On 10/26/2011 10:38 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> >> Here's the problem as I see it. You system looks neat, and it would be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hmm.. down on this road again.. 

Hard Core EV guys need no BMS. Not even controller since there are
plenty of ways to do the BadBoy thing. Adjustable chargers.... are for
amateurs.

It's better to state what one needs for him/her self not what mankind
needs in general. At least if we are talking about opinions.

Good active BMS lets the user USE the vehicle and not worry about it
until that 250.000 mile check light lits up. To get to the right size
volumes the product has to be reliable and better than anything else
on the markets. This is why we do the product development. To get it
'out there'

Matched cells. Right... Matched how ? There's no good way to 'match'
cells well enough to enable the required payback.

After 'matching' you should match everything else during their
lifetime. Starting with identical temperatures.

Somehow I feel that the information in this discussion does not
provide any answers to the thread topic. 

I'm pretty sure I can manage 188 cells in a EV without any BMS for
years. Would require manual work but I'd do better than many others.
Does this push EVs further ? Or should I use the knowledge and try to
get more EVs on the roads that any grandma can use ?

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/10/27 AMPhibian <[email protected]>:
> You don't really need to know what each cell is doing all the time, you o=
nly
> need to know there is a problem with the pack that needs investigation.
> There's even a guy who developed a split pack monitor that can tell you t=
hat
> )
> If that's not enough you could split it even further, but any finer
> resolution than that seems somewhat pointless. An imbalance tells you =
there
> is a problem that needs further investigation, unless you think cells will
> be failing quite often you don't need the constant cell level information.
>
>


> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >> On 10/26/2011 10:38 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> >>> Here's the problem as I see it. You system looks neat, and it would =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The spirit behind my motivation to build the EV management components =

was to be able to "build an EV my wife could drive". She doesn't know =

the first thing about batteries, chemistries, wiring, heat dissapation, =

"sweet spots" or anything else 'technical' about EV's. She wants to get =

in, push a button, and go. I'd say the moral majority feels the same.

How do we do that? Monitor everything, all cells/voltage/temperature, =

wiring, loads, heat, history, etc...

I think it's possible, and still do it on a budget.

Therein lies the dream. 



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > Hmm.. down on this road again..
> >
> > Good active BMS lets the user USE the vehicle and not worry about it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> You don't really need to know what each cell is doing all the time, you only
> need to know there is a problem with the pack that needs investigation.
> There's even a guy who developed a split pack monitor that can tell you that
> )
> If that's not enough you could split it even further, but any finer
> resolution than that seems somewhat pointless. An imbalance tells you there
> is a problem that needs further investigation, unless you think cells will
> be failing quite often you don't need the constant cell level information.
>

So on your split monitor you see that the A half has less voltage than the B half. To facilitate our 
voltage lets keep the numbers simple, lets say full charge is 6 vdc for the batteries you have. You 
have a 144 v system, so 12 batteries on each half, 72 v. A reads 71 and B reads 70 after a 20 min 
drive, you get back and charge them all up, each reads 72.

You take another 20 min run and A reads 70 and B reads 68, and you think - 'hmmm something is wrong 
here. Both half's are not equal and they are discharging at different rates, which one is the 'bad' 
side. I guess I'll have to measure all of them.'

So what real purpose has your split pack monitor really served... you could have gotten that 
information from the whole pack monitor. You would have seen that the pack was deteriorating and you 
would have had to measure all of them anyhow.

This is a pretty simplistic model, but I think that it illustrates the point that the batteries need 
to be individually monitored. After all a 6 volt battery is really 3 cells... and so in your 12 
battery half pack you have really 36 individual cells, or 72 in the whole pack, anyone of which can 
go 'bad' and pull the whole pack down

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com 

_______________________________________________
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|
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I actually experienced this early on with my pack. I drove to the edge of my
range, my controller started cutting back power until I was creeping home at
about 20 miles an hour. Since my pack was bottom balanced no harm, no foul,
even at 1.77V per cell under load as I pulled into my driveway. If your
controller is not capable of doing the same, and/or you aren't bottom
balanced, then you probably do need a BMS to take control if you think you
might push your range.




> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > On 10/27/2011 5:31 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
> >> What would your wife do with all that information that she wouldn't do
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jack Rickard drove two of his cars until they would not move, with no BMS. =
After charging the batteries seemed to be unhurt (although he said that mig=
ht have hurt the cycle life).

He also put in a little circuit that greatly limits the accelerator potenti=
ometer voltage, so the car would greatly slow down if low on Voltage, getti=
ng the attention of even the most inattentive driver.



________________________________
From: mark at evie-systems <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] no active bms

The spirit behind my motivation to build the EV management components =

was to be able to "build an EV my wife could drive". She doesn't know =

the first thing about batteries, chemistries, wiring, heat dissapation, =

"sweet spots" or anything else 'technical' about EV's. She wants to get =

in, push a button, and go. I'd say the moral majority feels the same.

How do we do that? Monitor everything, all cells/voltage/temperature, =

wiring, loads, heat, history, etc...

I think it's possible, and still do it on a budget.

Therein lies the dream. 



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > Hmm.. down on this road again..
> >
> > Good active BMS lets the user USE the vehicle and not worry about it
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The point is not to display it. The point is (as Lee says in a later 
response) to 'control' the vehicle, to slow it down, to protect the 
pack, and the driver, as much as possible.

Step 1; display it, for the tech heads like me, who ~need~ to watch it, 
understand and learn what's going on.

Step 2; reduce it down to an idiot light, albiet a smart one.

Can't get there (in my opinion) unless you're watching all of it.

Anyway, I'll shut up about it and just get busy.

~later



> AMPhibian wrote:
> > What would your wife do with all that information that she wouldn't do with a
> > simple warning light from a split pack warning system? Frankly I think all
> > that information would be overwhelming for the average driver who has no
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I decided to do it this way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DvCiEoOS2xeE

7" touch screen with GUI. Visibility in sunny weather was the biggest
issue. This was made with flash and CPU ran on Linux.

We did have bugs  .. As you might notice the uptime calculator did
not automatically change from minutes to hours and then to days.

Nodes measured voltages and temperatures from cells (not from 3 to 6
cell batteries), charger controller communicated with charger,
contactor controller took care of emergency cutoffs and so on. Can bus
all over and DB was build all the time. Just to see how cells work in
real life applications.

If you check the video you can see the security code to enter to the
service mode. From there we could see the details normal user does not
care of. The front screen with capacity and drivable left range with
current driving habits were there but the higher level programs were
never were finalized due altered company policies. I got strange deja
vu with this thread here on EVDL. 

What is comes to Jacks good luck and 'many, many others' there are
always few empty chambers in Russian roulette. Failure mechanisms are
not always dramatic.. but sometimes they are. Who are willing to take
the risk and sell hazardous systems to average Janes ?

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/10/28 mark at evie-systems <[email protected]>:
> The point is not to display it. The point is (as Lee says in a later
> response) to 'control' the vehicle, to slow it down, to protect the
> pack, and the driver, as much as possible.
>
> Step 1; display it, for the tech heads like me, who ~need~ to watch it,
> understand and learn what's going on.
>
> Step 2; reduce it down to an idiot light, albiet a smart one.
>
> Can't get there (in my opinion) unless you're watching all of it.
>
> Anyway, I'll shut up about it and just get busy.
>
> ~later
>


> > AMPhibian wrote:
> >> What would your wife do with all that information that she wouldn't do w=
> ith a
> >> simple warning light from a split pack warning system? Frankly I thin=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My concern is the display and detailed information adds cost, reducing the
potential market. I don't run a BMS because at this point I've not seen one
to be cost effective. I can kill and replace a lot of cells for the price
of most BMS's on the market. My controller already takes care of low
voltage situations by reducing current and eventually stopping the vehicle. 
I realize not all controllers are capable of that but I think more and more
will be. To me the most important feature of a BMS would be that it can do
no harm. I've seen too many people kill cells when the BMS fails and drains
one or more to zero. I also suspect some BMS's have taken over control of
charger shut down, preventing it from happening, and damaging packs. I
think the BMS should be hooked only to a separate relay that cuts power to
the charger if the charger fails to shut down on it's own.
I'm not trying to discourage your efforts, I would love to see a cost
effective, robust and reliable BMS on the market, but I don't see how what
you are designing can be cost effective. The closest I've seen so far is
the Mini BMS, and that seems simpler than yours, with no display, yet is
still too expensive in my opinion. 5% of cell cost might be in the ball
park but I'm not sure that's even remotely possible without mass
manufacturing.
To me the ideal BMS would be a RFID chip on each cell that wirelessly
transmits cell temp and a high and low voltage signal to a central control
unit, but I don't know if it's reasonable to implement.




> mark at evie-systems wrote:
> >
> > The point is not to display it. The point is (as Lee says in a later
> > response) to 'control' the vehicle, to slow it down, to protect the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Aim for the cost was 10% of the overall system cost. Including 3kW
main charger. This cost level was achievable already in 2006. But I
can see how it was seen back then. We HAD to go for cell manufacturing
too to secure the sales volumes.

Complexity argument is quite strange to me at least if you compare how
much "complex" systems are out there and they work just fine. We tried
to keep it as simple as possible but I can also understand how the
redundancy can be seen as complexity. The fact is these systems have
been working quite reliably for many many years.

Reason to go that route long time ago was that there was already mass
produced components available off the shelf. No need to develop any
super special parts. But this was seen as a problem too. Anyone could
copy it easily just by taking it to parts and buying same components.
SW could have been copied too quite easily from flash disks.

In that kind of situation I believe it would be more reasonable to
send as many scouts out instead of just building thicker stone walls.
Flood the markets and build the kingdom from there.

-akkuJukka


http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/10/28 AMPhibian <[email protected]>:
>


> > Jukka J=E4rvinen-2 wrote:
> >>
> >> I decided to do it this way:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DvCiEoOS2xeE
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh! for the love of goodness, I am completely jealous now! Nice. Very =

very nice.

One question; did you have an individual CPU on each cell, or did you =

have a multi-cell monitor? My cell monitor "module" will handle up to =

8-series cells.



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > I decided to do it this way:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DvCiEoOS2xeE
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We had one uChip PIC (with CAN bus option) on the PCB to do the I/O
work. Then we controlled one 20W Artesyn CXA-module as DC/DC on the
same PCB. This DC/DC is durable, made in high volumes for Telecom and
dirty cheap ($10 each). So there was one isolated 72VDC balance power
bus cabled. Balancing power was taken from the whole battery pack.

This all was for one 160/200 Ah cell but was used with adapter PCB on
400 Ah cells too. Redundancy came through this way. So if one PIC/PCB
melted away we still could measure that one cell temperature and
voltage. Temperature was simply questimated from the value of
neighboring cells. The cell voltage was measurable by adding up all
other cell level voltages and then used that value to deduct it from
the AH-meter or charger value. These both measured the whole pack
voltage. We worked a lot on the accuracy and reliability.

By measuring much accurate data and using the database we could
determine how cells die. From that was the cell level manipulation
generated and the ideas how to notch cells to same behavior curve.
Over 10% initial differences were not a problem in capacity.
Efficiency affected to the overall drainable capacity from the pack.

The LCP cells had bigger efficiency change over SOC. So I generated
the off-balance-operational-window -theory. This ment that if 70% of
the whole capacity was used from the pack one cell would sit on 70%
SOC while other is on 100% (or even at 105%). When the discharging
started the bad cell heated less and good cell delivered more. During
the cycle no balancing was necessary but it could have been done if
needed. Eventually cells were worn unevenly to be more even. By this
way cells should die about the same time. 10 to 15 years from the
installation.

Now.. the game is changed with LFP and new ideas are cooking up. Much
of the old can be used. I'm happy that some of the vehicle
manufacturers are working on other chemistries where same effects
still apply.

Anyone can see these babies in action in few vehicles so I believe I'm
not telling too much.. eh.. I feel a bit slim talking about this on
this level...

I worked closely with MetricMind in the early days and Victor did
wonderful job. That I must say. We did share ideas but had our own
things too.

-akkuJukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about



2011/10/28 mark at evie-systems <[email protected]>:
> Oh! for the love of goodness, I am completely jealous now! Nice. Ve=
ry
> very nice.
>
> One question; did you have an individual CPU on each cell, or did you
> have a multi-cell monitor? My cell monitor "module" will handle up to
> 8-series cells.
>


> > Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> >> I decided to do it this way:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DvCiEoOS2xeE
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You sir, are my hero! Thank you for the details!

~mark



> Jukka J=E4rvinen wrote:
> > We had one uChip PIC (with CAN bus option) on the PCB to do the I/O
> > work. Then we controlled one 20W Artesyn CXA-module as DC/DC on the
> > same PCB. This DC/DC is durable, made in high volumes for Telecom and
> ...


----------

