# [EVDL] Aptera not vaporware after all



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neat... how many states (if any?) actually allow rearview cameras instead of mirrors?
And the 3-wheeled configuration?

Not trying to shoot it down or anything, but there's a lot of laws to fix first.

It looks like it could safely reenter the Earth's atmosphere from space all on its own.

Danny



> ---- John Fisher <[email protected]> wrote:
> > video of BEV aptera on road and under construction.
> > http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237853.html
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

In many states the 3-wheeled configuration with two front wheels and
one rear drive wheel classifies it as a motorcycle. I'm sure there is
a weight limit too. I'm in Washington state and my Gizmo was made in
Oregon. I think that is also why there is no place for a front license
plate. A motorcycle doesn't require one. My Gizmo is probably about
half the weight of the Aptera.




> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Neat... how many states (if any?) actually allow rearview cameras instead of mirrors?
> > And the 3-wheeled configuration?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sparrows are MC's in CA, I would guess the Aptera is in the same 
weight and classification.




> David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > In many states the 3-wheeled configuration with two front wheels and
> > one rear drive wheel classifies it as a motorcycle. I'm sure there is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, for the electric version, I suppose one wouldn't worry about if it was legal in all 50 states since it's going to stay near home. The hybrid 300mpg one could have problems. Correct me if I'm wrong but just because a vehicle is legal in the state in which it was registered doesn't guarantee it will be legal in another state, right?

I know for example one may leave home with a double trailer where it's legal and be ticketed once he crosses into a state where it is not legal.

Danny

---- Mark Dutko <[email protected]> wrote: 
> Sparrows are MC's in CA, I would guess the Aptera is in the same 
> weight and classification.
> 
> 
>


> David Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > In many states the 3-wheeled configuration with two front wheels and
> > > one rear drive wheel classifies it as a motorcycle. I'm sure there is
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The popmech video article says the driver won't need a motorcycle 
license because it has three wheels and won't need a helmet because it 
has a roof.

Wonder if it is still classified as a motorcycle. Must be right?




> Mark Dutko wrote:
> > Sparrows are MC's in CA, I would guess the Aptera is in the same
> > weight and classification.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has 
folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels but 
they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the 
aptera.

Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.

And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt collisoons 
apparently.

>>>
>>> It looks like it could safely reenter the Earth's atmosphere from
>>> space all on its own.
>>>
>>> Danny


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> GWMobile wrote:
> > The popmech video article says the driver won't need a motorcycle
> > license because it has three wheels and won't need a helmet because it
> > has a roof.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> The popmech video article says the driver won't need a motorcycle
> license because it has three wheels and won't need a helmet because it
> has a roof.
>
> Wonder if it is still classified as a motorcycle. Must be right?
>

Well, they are wrong...sort of.

Every state is different. In many states they WILL need a motorcycle
license. In other states you won't be able to register it at all.

Thanks to Corbin, and the Sparrow, many states do not require a helmet if
you are riding a three-wheeled, fully enclosed, motorcycle.

>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They are only selling in California so perhaps that is California law.



> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> The popmech video article says the driver won't need a motorcycle
> >> license because it has three wheels and won't need a helmet because it
> >> has a roof.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the name is "a" (lacking) "ptera (wings)


Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has 
folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels but 
they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the 
aptera.

Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I hate how they layer on a thick techo soundtrack so you can't get a feel
for how noisy it may be when driving it. I mean, I don't care about the
techno music! Give me a good feel for the driving experience!

-----Original Message-----
Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has 
folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels but 
they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the 
aptera.

Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.

And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt collisoons 
apparently.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree!
I hated the music. Really bugged me.
And very few real shots of the car driving on curves or with 
acceleration so you could see roll and dive.

Certainly could tell they weren't an auto magazine!



> [email protected] wrote:
> > I hate how they layer on a thick techo soundtrack so you can't get a
> > feel
> > for how noisy it may be when driving it. I mean, I don't care about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree!
I hated the music. Really bugged me.
And very few real shots of the car driving on curves or with 
acceleration so you could see roll and dive.

Certainly could tell they weren't an auto magazine!



> [email protected] wrote:
> > I hate how they layer on a thick techo soundtrack so you can't get a
> > feel
> > for how noisy it may be when driving it. I mean, I don't care about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think we all want to see what happens to the wheelwells when it drive
through a slushy road.

-----Original Message-----
I agree!
I hated the music. Really bugged me.
And very few real shots of the car driving on curves or with 
acceleration so you could see roll and dive.

Certainly could tell they weren't an auto magazine!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> GWMobile wrote:
> > I agree!
> > I hated the music. Really bugged me.
> > And very few real shots of the car driving on curves or with
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not too concerned about its cornering or performance in slush... what would concern me is a heavy side gust in a windstorm. With a light vehicle and ample space for wind to go under it, that seems like being picked up and toppled could be a concern. With the local-only EV version, one could just say fine don't take it out on those once-or-twice-a-year bad times. If you're at work, have a friend drive you home, take the bus, or call a cab. With the long-distance version that might be harder to exclude. Once you're 200 miles from home and the wind starts kicking up your options are more limited. But I'd not jump to the conclusion that it's all that vulnerable to wind gusts.

I bet that if it did make it onto the market, someone would indeed start trying to make a bolt-up set of wing for it. Given its fairly low weight and exceptionally low drag, it would be quite conceivable that with one of the newer high power density engines it could easily fly, at least on paper. Use the drivewheels for the initial acceleration down the runway then rely on the prop once the weight unloads off them. Short takeoff!



Danny

> > -----Original Message-----
> > Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has
> > folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels 
> > but
> > they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the
> > aptera.
> >
> > Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.
> >
> > And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt collisoons
> > apparently.
> 
> 
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
> and the melting poles.
> 
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

They've already got a wiki with that info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_hybrid_car

They shot for a drag coefficient of 0.055 to 0.06, but ended up with 0.11 in the prototype. Also they only get 230 mpg, starting with a fully charged batt- and I figuring that means part of that mileage comes off the batt rather than a pure gasoline-to-miles figure. Awww.... "only" 230 mpg?? I figure after 50 mpg or so cost of fuel is just about nothing anyways, car payments and expensive low rolling resistance specialty tires cost far more per month.

I bet the drag added by including a space for the legally required license plate is making the designer cry.

Body shape reminds me of the Edgley Optica- a ducted fan aircraft which had to maintain laminar airflow around the cabin for the intake to the ducted fan in the rear (it's not a turbine, just an enclosed propeller). Was not a success in the end, though it's unclear if the principles of the design were flawed.

Danny



> ---- Roy LeMeur <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > And... some shots of the chassis working in real world situations. Like hard braking, cornering close to the adhesion limit, even negotiating a parking lot with other vehicles would be good. (though interaction with other the drivers wouldn't be an accurate representation cuz all the other drivers would, in addition too everyday responses, have the -wow- factor going on :^D )
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I suspect the aerodynamics of the vehicle allows the wind to slide around
it rather than blow it around. I saw a freeway run where is was being video
taped while going down freeway. The tracking car was being buffeted by
semi's passing it but the Aptera was rock steady. However I do not a
personal driving experience to verify it.



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not too concerned about its cornering or performance in slush... what
> > would concern me is a heavy side gust in a windstorm. With a light vehicle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> Did anyone see the drag coefficient mentioned? I didn't catch that 
> part.

Think they said it was less than the wind resistance of a normal 
windshield wiper.

It was like half that of a prius or something but I forget.

The profile made me wonder what was going on with the underbody where it 
rising up then back down in back.

I also wondered if it helped the wind resistance if they keep the total 
area between the bottom of the car body and the road the same for the 
whole vehicle profile. Looked like they might be trying to do that. 
Wondered if the kept the air from getting compressed more than it had 
to.

I did not understand the bit about the solar panel pulling the heat out 
of the cabin. Something they said made me think they weren't just using 
a blower to ventalate the cabin but I can't remember without watching it 
again.

> IMHO, one of the best vehicle designs I have seen in a long time.
>
> Bucky Fuller would like this :^D
>
>
> ~~~~~~
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't see wind as a problem, it's not flat on the bottom. The wind
isn't going to push any harder on the bottom than the top.

Given that they made sure it was high enough to be out of most of the
"ground effect" I'm pretty sure they were smart enough to make sure that
it doesn't have any "lifting" cross sections.
I.e. the air path over the top and the bottom are probably pretty close to
the same distance from any angle.

Solar racing vehicles stand just as high and generally have no problems
flipping over in side winds.

> I'm not too concerned about its cornering or performance in slush... what
> would concern me is a heavy side gust in a windstorm. With a light
> vehicle and ample space for wind to go under it, that seems like being
> picked up and toppled could be a concern. With the local-only EV version,
> one could just say fine don't take it out on those once-or-twice-a-year
> bad times. If you're at work, have a friend drive you home, take the bus,
> or call a cab. With the long-distance version that might be harder to
> exclude. Once you're 200 miles from home and the wind starts kicking up
> your options are more limited. But I'd not jump to the conclusion that
> it's all that vulnerable to wind gusts.
>
> I bet that if it did make it onto the market, someone would indeed start
> trying to make a bolt-up set of wing for it. Given its fairly low weight
> and exceptionally low drag, it would be quite conceivable that with one of
> the newer high power density engines it could easily fly, at least on
> paper. Use the drivewheels for the initial acceleration down the runway
> then rely on the prop once the weight unloads off them. Short takeoff!
>
>
>
> Danny
>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > Actually it looks almost exactly like that new auto plane that has
>> > folding wings. The new autoplane or car plane though has four wheels
>> > but
>> > they are on stalks and the body fuselage is raised just like the
>> > aptera.
>> >
>> > Really the aptera has an airplane fuselage. Very smart.
>> >
>> > And strength is better than most cars in side and frornt collisoons
>> > apparently.
>>
>>
>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
>> and the melting poles.
>>
>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I did not understand the bit about the solar panel pulling the heat out
> of the cabin. Something they said made me think they weren't just using
> a blower to ventalate the cabin but I can't remember without watching it
> again.

They are just using a blower to blow the hot air out of the cabin. By
blowing the hot air out of the cabin, even while parked, it lowers the
heat load that the climate control has to handle.
They vent it out at the tail in such a way as to help lower the drag while
moving.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Loved that optica aircraft.
Was one of my favorites along with rutan's EZ 's
All the composite stuff looks great because of complete freedom to 
aeroform.

Maybe they can put the front plate deep in the body with a curvilineat 
plexi blended body piece around it.

Or could they mount it on a slant or have mirror reflect its image if 
the plate was held inside?

Gotta do something about that plate law.
Is a front one required for a 3 wheeler or motorcycle?



> [email protected] wrote:
> > They've already got a wiki with that info:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_hybrid_car
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Or could they mount it on a slant or have mirror reflect its image if
> the plate was held inside?

The mirror would flip the image, besides if they have room for the mirror
then they have room for the plate.
At any rate, it's a motorcycle (by federal definition) and therefor
doesn't need a front plate. At least I'm not aware of any state that
requires front plates on motorcycles.

FWIW many states do not require front plates on cars/trucks either. Here
in AZ they don't even issue you a front plate.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > FWIW many states do not require front plates on cars/trucks either. Here
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That was my thought as well.
Suseptibility to side gusts is usually caused by tall flat sides. The 
Aptera has none.

Unless the aptera shape causes some lift on top which is not matched by 
the curve shap and "lift" that would be created on the underside (which 
I doubt) it should be fine in side winds.

Remember for non flat sided objects + it isn't wind getting "under" it 
that causes it to flip , it is wind going over a top curved surface when 
a similiar curved surface does not exist on the bottom. The UNBALANCED 
top lift from the curved surface on top thus forms a wing which lifts 
the vehicle off the road. That's why nascar racers used to flip even 
though they have virtually no air going under them. Later nascar 
introduced flip up spoilers on the roofs to break the wing shape and get 
rid of the top lift when spinning and now nascar racers rarely flip 
unless their TIRES grab sideways.



> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> > I suspect the aerodynamics of the vehicle allows the wind to slide
> > around
> > it rather than blow it around. I saw a freeway run where is was being
> ...


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