# Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300zxdrivetrain.jpg


Here is how mine turned out, I cut the bushing in half figuring there
would be very little actual usage over the years of service. No word on
if that was a good idea or not. I think spliting the shaft is more
possible with a setscrew style coupler, the taper lock should help
re-enforce the shaft.

you can see how the bushing is down in there

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00069.jpg

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Can't you make it the same as the back end of the ICE crankshaft? Or
just cut off the end of a crankshaft and machine it to fit in your
adapter sleeve?



> Jeremy Green <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I've been following along with this coupler discussion because I'm in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

I have a crankshaft and originally I was going to cut the end off to 
make an adapter. This would work for a set screw adapter but not for 
a taper lock adapter. There just isn't enough material there. The 
end of the crank is only about 80mm in diameter.

I'm kind of wondering if I should just machine a whole new flywheel 
with a taper lock bushing in the back instead of using the flywheel 
that I have.

-Jeremy




> storm connors wrote:
> 
> > Can't you make it the same as the back end of the ICE crankshaft? Or
> > just cut off the end of a crankshaft and machine it to fit in your
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*



> Jeremy Green wrote:
> > I'm kind of wondering if I should just machine a whole new flywheel
> > with a taper lock bushing in the back instead of using the flywheel
> > that I have.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

I hadn't even thought of that. I figured I'd just machine a whole new 
one. That might be a little easier though it seems like it would be 
tricky to get it centered and square.

-Jeremy



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> 
> >
> > Jeremy Green wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

I'm still questioning this issue for my old Datsun.

My problem is that I can't put the pilot bushing in the end of the 
motor shaft because its too large. Its also long. I need the flywheel 
flange to be 2 inches behind the end of my ADC 8 inch motor shaft. 
The stock crank isn't long enough to the end of the rear main bearing 
to use it (unless... more on that later). The main bearing size isn't 
big enough to bore for a QD type bushing anyway (2" main bearings.)

So I'm down to machining a hub from a new piece of steel. Since I 
need a hub with the pilot bushing a standard taper lock is out 
(installs the wrong way.) A QD (SF) could work but could only grab 
about 1.1 inch of the motor shaft unless I machine clearance into the 
motor end bell. The rear .8 inch of the available motor shaft is 
inside the end bell and the end bell opening is only 2.08 inches. The 
SF QD bushing supposed to grab 1.31 inches and with my long hub I 
would need all the centering help I can get.

I found the flange-less QD bushings as an option. They have a larger 
OD (but smaller than the flange of a QD) so I would still have to 
work the motors end bell but since they are only 1.125 inches long 
and the OD is smaller I could work it with a Dremel. I'm still 
concerned about getting a hub face 2 inches behind that to run 
without a wobble.

This has caused me to consider going with a set screw hub. I get the 
full 1.9 inches of shaft support. Clutch release loads can be taken 
by either making the hub fit against the inner bearing race or the 
end of the motor shaft. A 1/4 inch key that is 1-1/4 inch long should 
be able to handle well over 160 ft/lb of torque but when a normal 
service factor is considered its outside of any manufacturers 
recommendation. All 3 of these options require a completely new hub 
to be machined. Rod did say that a set screw hub used in the Maniac 
Mazda didn't quite fail with 1000 amps flowing into an ADC 9 inch 
motor (about 25% more torque due to the motor and A LOT more traction 
than my little P165/80R13 tires will ever provide.)

Later...
Ruland got back to me about their CLX like of shaft couplers. They 
tell me that with a 1.125 inch bore the CLX like of shaft couplers 
<http://ruland.com/ps_couplings_rigid_spx.asp> are rated for 4400 in/ 
lb of torque (366 ft/lb - more than enough.) I could have the crank 
cut and turned down to 1.125 inches. It would be long enough because 
none of it would have to extend over the motor shaft. The Ruland 
coupler would tie the 2 together. I could have a key cut into the 
motor side and run the turned end of the stock crank without a key in 
the other side.

Still, I'm a bit unsure about this. No key on a chinch type coupler? 
However, the pilot bore in the end of the stock crank is 13/16 inch. 
If the shaft is turned down to 1.125 inch then the wall thickness is 
only 0.156 inch (Ruland is fine about that wall thickness and the CLX 
coupler up to 200 ft/lb of torque.) Perhaps I could have a shallow 
key cut made, the type that doesn't extend out either end, and run a 
3/16 inch by 1/4 inch key. I don't know just how deep I can cut into 
the forged crank. I could switch to the one piece coupler design if I 
included a key (and not worry about that 3000 rpm limit that I would 
have to ignore with the CLX.)

I use a Ruland CLC-18-18-F coupler in my electric buggy. This is a 
one piece type with key for 1-1/8 shaft. I don't run a flywheel or 
clutch in the buggy (a splined insert for the tranny side.) It took a 
controller failure at startup without any issues. I've had the thing 
to 7000 rpm (I don't know the recommended max for that type.)

I haven't even dug into a "replace the flywheel" design. So, any 
input is welcome.

Paul Gooch




> Jeremy Green wrote:
> 
> > I have a crankshaft and originally I was going to cut the end off to
> > make an adapter. This would work for a set screw adapter but not for
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Why stay with the same crank pattern?

If you use a small block chevy pattern, then you can use a button
flywheel and a used 2 plate racing clutch. They all have the same
pattern and you can get whatever splines you want on the disks.

I got my clutch from http://www.mrracingequipment.com/ (Michelle was
very helpful)
and I got new disks with nissan splines for $160 from tilton.

Now I chose a triple plate 5-1/4 without springs and that was too
drastic. I recommend a dual plate rally clutch instead.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Ah yes, reverend gadget, a man who is actually famous for his welding
ability. We mere mortals think twice about that one.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

That's a good thought too. I have kind of been wanting to stick with 
the clutch/flywheel that I have since I already have it (an exedy twin 
plate) and I got it for a pretty good price. The twin plate clutches 
can get a little pricey (for Hondas at least).
I drew up a replacement flywheel: http://www.brownout.com/pix/post16/flywheel.jpg

I kind of like the simplicity of having the flywheel be the coupler. 
It allows me to push the motor a little closer to the transmission (as 
close as the pilot bushing will allow).

-Jeremy



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Why stay with the same crank pattern?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Yes but...



> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Why stay with the same crank pattern?
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Maybe I got lucky in those areas. The 2005 350Z uses the radius contact
throw out bushing needed for the racing clutch and it fit on the 1987
300zx's throw out arm. perfect. The dealer also told me that he has some
"pull off" stock rims from the 350ZX for me, they fit on the 300zx also.
I am thinking maybe it will be easier to find LRR tires in more modern
sizes.

The Small block chevy pattern I am mentioning is of course the 2 part
seal from the earlier years, the one most commonly adopted for
after-market and racing stuff 

Inches vs metric is irrelevant, different ways of measuring the same
thing. BTW, My pontiac grand am has more metric on it than my nissan and
syas "made in mexico" in big letters on the bottom--LOL

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31_non-turbo-pattern.jpg

My SBC(small block chevy) crank adapter is mated to the same tranny
found in the nissan trucks in the 80's, I am sure the pattern has
changed since the 60's but I am not a datsun guru at all.

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00059.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00061.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00071.jpg

http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300zxdrivetrain.jpg

I made that taperlock myself and if I ever get off my duff and boot up
the old windows machine I have around here, I mean to put that adapter
drawing up on the site.(just another computer here on my desk)

I bought the key-way broach kit and it was simple to use, came out sweet.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

The only thing that worries me about that approach is what happens if
the clutch gouges the flywheel surface and it can't be surfaced out?
With a taperlock adapter you can always just buy a new flywheel from
autozone and bolt it right up. If it is machined and welded you will
basically have to start over to get a new coupler. Some of these
electric motors are very hard on clutches since they have so much
startup torque. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Green
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 16:47
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material

I hadn't even thought of that. I figured I'd just machine a whole new
one. That might be a little easier though it seems like it would be
tricky to get it centered and square.

-Jeremy



> Doug Weathers wrote:
> 
> >
> > Jeremy Green wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

That is true. I have thought about that. I had figured that a 
clutch/flyhwheels duties in an electric vehicle were a little lighter 
than in a ICE car since you don't really have to slip them at all from 
a stop. I also thought about making it with a replaceable friction 
surface (like many aftermarket aluminum flywheels use).

-Jeremy

On Nov 28, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G 
wrote:

> The only thing that worries me about that approach is what happens if
> the clutch gouges the flywheel surface and it can't be surfaced out?
> With a taperlock adapter you can always just buy a new flywheel from
> autozone and bolt it right up. If it is machined and welded you will
> basically have to start over to get a new coupler. Some of these
> electric motors are very hard on clutches since they have so much
> startup torque.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Jeremy Green
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 16:47
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material
>
> I hadn't even thought of that. I figured I'd just machine a whole new
> one. That might be a little easier though it seems like it would be
> tricky to get it centered and square.
>
> -Jeremy
>
>


> Doug Weathers wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Jeremy Green wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

Now that is a good idea. Maybe an aluminum flywheel with a steel
insert? I have seen some racing flywheels made that way. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Green
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:23
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material

That is true. I have thought about that. I had figured that a 
clutch/flyhwheels duties in an electric vehicle were a little lighter
than in a ICE car since you don't really have to slip them at all from a
stop. I also thought about making it with a replaceable friction
surface (like many aftermarket aluminum flywheels use).

-Jeremy

On Nov 28, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:

> The only thing that worries me about that approach is what happens if 
> the clutch gouges the flywheel surface and it can't be surfaced out?
> With a taperlock adapter you can always just buy a new flywheel from 
> autozone and bolt it right up. If it is machined and welded you will 
> basically have to start over to get a new coupler. Some of these 
> electric motors are very hard on clutches since they have so much 
> startup torque.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf Of Jeremy Green
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 16:47
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material
>
> I hadn't even thought of that. I figured I'd just machine a whole new

> one. That might be a little easier though it seems like it would be 
> tricky to get it centered and square.
>
> -Jeremy
>
>


> Doug Weathers wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Jeremy Green wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material*

A Taper-Lock Weld-on Hub will work too. You will have to use the Dodge Type 
F with Hub No's. 6F25A to 6F25E with a 9/32 inch flange so it will not stick 
above the mill flywheel surface for the clutch. It will uses a Bushing No. 
2517 that uses a 2-1/4 inch key length. The Type S will not work, because 
the smallest one has a flange that is 0.73 inches thick.

The fly wheel center is bore to the diameter and face the surface where the 
hubs flange sets on for a press fit at first. The machinist sets the 
Weld-on Hub and then checks for center line. If its not in with 0.001 then 
he re-bores it and taps it until is in line, then spot welds it to set it 
and then re-checks it again.

The Weld-on Hub is then inserted from the front with the flange on the front 
side which will be only 9/32 inch high. It is then welded on the back side 
of the flywheel, because that is where a taper is mill on the Taper-lock hub 
is use for welding.

Remember that the center bolt on section of the flywheel is recessed about 
1/2 inch so the flywheel bolt heads do not rub on the clutch. So with about 
1/4 inch of the Weld-on Hub flange on the flywheel bolt surface, there will 
be plenty of room if you have to resurface the flywheel.

The taper lock bushing is a two recess set screws with a third bolt hole you 
line up for removing. The pattern is set for maximum center line, unlike 
the QD bushing which can be turn to three different positions for the 
maximum center line alignment.

My flywheel is now 32 years old and did not have to be resurface yet. Only 
had it condition which is putting the swirls on it which is normally done 
after a flywheel is turn.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeremy Green" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material


> That is true. I have thought about that. I had figured that a
> clutch/flyhwheels duties in an electric vehicle were a little lighter
> than in a ICE car since you don't really have to slip them at all from
> a stop. I also thought about making it with a replaceable friction
> surface (like many aftermarket aluminum flywheels use).
>
> -Jeremy
>
> On Nov 28, 2007, at 8:44 AM, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
> wrote:
>
> > The only thing that worries me about that approach is what happens if
> > the clutch gouges the flywheel surface and it can't be surfaced out?
> > With a taperlock adapter you can always just buy a new flywheel from
> > autozone and bolt it right up. If it is machined and welded you will
> > basically have to start over to get a new coupler. Some of these
> > electric motors are very hard on clutches since they have so much
> > startup torque.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Jeremy Green
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 16:47
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Coupler design, was: Re: Coupler material
> >
> > I hadn't even thought of that. I figured I'd just machine a whole new
> > one. That might be a little easier though it seems like it would be
> > tricky to get it centered and square.
> >
> > -Jeremy
> >
> >


> Doug Weathers wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Jeremy Green wrote:
> ...


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