# Converting 2001 Passat



## Weka (May 23, 2008)

eischer
What batteries do you intend to use, and how many with what weight and where do you intend to put them?

Great buy getting a Passat at that price -they are nice cars


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I haven't done a whole lot of research on batteries, I was planning on buying optima blue tops just to get started. I need 24. Was going to put 12 under the hood. Maybe 6 in the trunk, 2 where the muffler was, 1 in the spare tire compartment, and 4 where the gas tank was. I think I could fit the remaining 12 in the trunk if I had to. 

I am also looking at prius batteries, but I suspect I'd need atleast 5 packs. I don't like the idea of hooking up packs in parallel either. 

I only need to go about 30 miles, and with 24 optimas, they don't need to be super huge ones. Peak current would be around 400 Amps.

The engine compartment has two frame rails that look pretty beefy. the trunk is quite large as well.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I decided im using ~5000 NiMH AA's for my battery. They have the highest energy density, and they are the cheapest per Watt*hr. They have a ton of surface area for cooling, and would be a light weight alternative to C, D, F cells. They are the most common battery, so I think the most research goes into maximizing their performance. I plan on building 50V 20Ah packs. 

Each pack will be fan cooled, and have an array of 20 x 40 cells. 20 cells in parallel should keep the pack balanced, if a cell is dead, there will be 19 others to share the load. If a battery charges sooner, the current will increase to the ones that can still take a charge. 

Here is a decision matrix I made. 





















I plan on using that rotoflex coupling to connect my motor to my transmission. 














Cleaned out my engine compartment this weekend. Making good progress!

http://etischer.com/awdev/


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Looking good! Just one thing, your pack size seems pretty small. 300volt x 22 Ah is only 6.6KW of power. And from looking at the discharge graphs, they would only give you 10 to 15 minutes of power at EV rates of discharge. I might be missing something, but from my own research, the only NiMH that would even be EV feasible are the F cells, and about the time those were all priced, the lithium was cheaper. Those 2/3 AA can deliver 10 amps for a little over 4 minutes.

That Ford motor originally powered the Ranger EV that used ~300 volts 90Ah NiMH cells. 27KW of juice.


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## Craig (Aug 30, 2007)

TheSGC said:


> Looking good! Just one thing, your pack size seems pretty small. 300volt x 22 Ah is only 6.6KW of power. And from looking at the discharge graphs, they would only give you 10 to 15 minutes of power at EV rates of discharge. I might be missing something, but from my own research, the only NiMH that would even be EV feasible are the F cells, and about the time those were all priced, the lithium was cheaper. Those 2/3 AA can deliver 10 amps for a little over 4 minutes.
> 
> That Ford motor originally powered the Ranger EV that used ~300 volts 90Ah NiMH cells. 27KW of juice.


It's 6.6kWh if you're looking at the battery capacity.. btw that would be enough to drive 20-30km if it's anywhere near the calculations I had made for a similar car


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

This battery decision so far has been the toughest part of the project. 

The reason for going with the AA size was discharge current. To get F cells in the 200A range I would need about 5000 cells, thats the same number of AA cells to get 200A. I don't need the capacity of 5000 F cells, Im only commuting to work, about 20 miles. I may add a few hundred AA cells to increase my safety margin. Half my commute is stop and go.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Got my motor. Here is how it sizes up next to my transmission.


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

Good work!!

I was looking at your site and I think for best results on mounting the flange to the motor shaft is like you said get it machined but fit over the teeth, most likely the teeth are hardened so machining might be a pain especially with tooth interruption. Then once it's welded bolt the motor to a lathe if you have access to one and machine the flange face and back since the motor has a lot of torque that will be nothing for it and this way it will be perfectly perpendicular to the shaft. 
And since it's a 3ph induction motor and if the shop has 3ph power that will solve the power supply problem. 

Is there any feedback from the motor to the controller?
________
Honda XR350


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I talked to three custom gear houses today, they say its nearly impossible to make a female part to slip over the helical gear. Looks like I will be welding or gluing. 

I will probably try epoxy first. If I can get a machined part to slip over the motors gear, and extrude the epoxy up though the hollow shaft, that would be a ton of surface area. 

Failing that I will have to weld. 

I hope to be running the motor in sensorless vector. I don't know how successful I will be in tricking the 2hp drive into thinking its a 2 horse motor instead of 90 horse. I may have to run in Volts / Hz mode, in which case Im not sure I can do regen brake. I may not get sensorless vector working right away, I can also do encoder feedback with the drive. I might also be able to get the hall sensors working on the motor. 

I could just run the 90 horse motor at 2 hp. I was thinking I could bolt up the motor and a bench grinder to a workbench and grind everything square. 

I think this flange is the only thing I can't buy my way out of. Even drive line shops say they can't weld it because it won't fit in their machine. Looks like Im going to do this myself.




Denniscnc said:


> Good work!!
> 
> I was looking at your site and I think for best results on mounting the flange to the motor shaft is like you said get it machined but fit over the teeth, most likely the teeth are hardened so machining might be a pain especially with tooth interruption. Then once it's welded bolt the motor to a lathe if you have access to one and machine the flange face and back since the motor has a lot of torque that will be nothing for it and this way it will be perfectly perpendicular to the shaft.
> And since it's a 3ph induction motor and if the shop has 3ph power that will solve the power supply problem.
> ...


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

IDEA ! 
I can't see the end of the shaft inside very well but could you machine a small taper on the inside . Then machine a through shaft to match with a nut on the non drive side . Assemble with Lock-Tite for bearings . I've seen a lot of stuff assembled with tapers that make a very tight fit . I wouldn't weld on the shaft it could make it brittle and break . J.W.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I had thought of that too. The wall thickness of the hollow shaft is only about 1/4". If I were to grind a taper into it, that would make it even thinner and I'd be worried about it splitting. 

That does lead me to another idea though. Grinding down the teeth and using a standard taper lock. 










The torque specs are way above what I'd pull with the motor. I'd have to machine down the teeth on the motor shaft. I'd also have to design a coupling to interface the taper lock to my rotoflex. Maybe I could even sell this as a kit when Im done since it will be a bolt on solution.



ww321q said:


> IDEA !
> I can't see the end of the shaft inside very well but could you machine a small taper on the inside . Then machine a through shaft to match with a nut on the non drive side . Assemble with Lock-Tite for bearings . I've seen a lot of stuff assembled with tapers that make a very tight fit . I wouldn't weld on the shaft it could make it brittle and break . J.W.


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

Another possible idea that will be removable is taper lock sprocket that will go over the teeth and Roller-Chain Shaft Coupler (page 1150) mcmaster sells them. And the other side of the coupler sprocket weld in a matching spline from a old clutch disk that will fit the tranny shaft. That way once all is bolted to the motor shaft just slide it together.
I don't think it will be easy grinding the teeth I would leave the teeth they will give you more grip to the shaft with a taper lock system. 

Keep up the good work.
________
silversurfer vaporizer


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'd be worried about backlash with the roller chain couplings. Im also now trying to avoid welding, since everyone I talked to about welding to a hardened gear says it will crack since the parts are heat treated. 

Im hoping a machine shop could mount the whole motor on a lathe and grind off the teeth. I'd be worried using a taper lock on the teeth, they will probably crack the teeth off since both the gear and taperlock are hardened.


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

Here is another sure idea but more involved. Have a flange with a long shaft made that will fit through the motor shaft and take apart the motor and drill two vertical holes for pins or bolts to hold the shaft.









________
Suzuki RM85


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The only problem is how do I drill the holes? The gear is hardened steel, and does not extend beyond the face of the motor. The motor can produce around 200 lbft, so the shear force on the pins would be around 2400lbs. 600lbs if you have 4 pins. If I can get the holes and pins tight, its a possibility, if I do go this route, I'd have the holes done on an EDM where they essentially burn a hole with high voltage.


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

It is very unlikely that the motor shaft is hardened past the gear teeth. On my forklift there are two 1/4" pins for the chain and it lifts 6,000lb no problem I have maxed it out many times I my self wounder how they hold up.
________
strain index


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I have drills that will drill a Nickeleson file ! thats no biggy . Machine a shaft the same profile as the inside of the motor shaft . Make some areas press fit ,003" or so . Install with hi-temp Lock-Tite . Big nut on the non drive side just to help keep it tight . J.W.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

To bad you don't live closer . We could do it in a day at my place . J.W.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Hey I don't mind driving =) 

I was thinking I could freeze the shaft with dry ice, and heat the hollow motor shaft. Do you think a press fit and locktite would do the trick? I just better hope the shaft doesn't press only half way, would be impossible to remove.

What do you think about clamping on the tips of the teeth with a taperlock? The tips of the teeth are flattend a bit. 



ww321q said:


> To bad you don't live closer . We could do it in a day at my place . J.W.


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## ww321q (Mar 28, 2008)

I've never had much luck with the heat and freeze method . If you did a press fit you would only want to press fit it in a couple places . I cant tell what the shaft looks like on the inside at the drive end . I'm thinking that you may have trouble with a taper lock on the splines . It would work for a while but soon would wear the splines or the taper lock . You know what I just had another thought (my 2 brain cells working overtime!). I'm thinking collet like a milling machine has but only the shaft (collet ) would be tapered . You may be able to use the shaft as a broach to cut inside splines . I have made square holes that way but I haven't tried splines ? One thing though If you get a shaft stuck in the inside and can't get it out , Just leave it and hook the input shaft to that ! LOL ! We'll get it figured out I'm sure and if you want to talk send a message I'll give you my phone # J.W.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I want to explore the nondestructive options first, and if it fails, Im basically back where I am right now. Your idea of having a tapered collet sounds promising. I was trying to picture how to get an expanding collet inside. Aren't the hollow shafts on a milling machine tapered, so when you draw the collet in, it gets wedged in the tapered hole and grips the bit? 

Were you thinking of putting corners on the collet like an easy out, so it would grip the inside of the hollow shaft? That shaft is pretty hard. 

If you don't mind, pm me your contact info. I bought a taperlock to fit over the gear teeth. I'll see if I can get the teeth to crumble just clamping the taperlock on there. Would also be interesting to see if the teeth would leave an imprint on the taper lock. 




ww321q said:


> I've never had much luck with the heat and freeze method . If you did a press fit you would only want to press fit it in a couple places . I cant tell what the shaft looks like on the inside at the drive end . I'm thinking that you may have trouble with a taper lock on the splines . It would work for a while but soon would wear the splines or the taper lock . You know what I just had another thought (my 2 brain cells working overtime!). I'm thinking collet like a milling machine has but only the shaft (collet ) would be tapered . You may be able to use the shaft as a broach to cut inside splines . I have made square holes that way but I haven't tried splines ? One thing though If you get a shaft stuck in the inside and can't get it out , Just leave it and hook the input shaft to that ! LOL ! We'll get it figured out I'm sure and if you want to talk send a message I'll give you my phone # J.W.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I forgot I was supposed to be updating this !

Here's the motor coupling I decided on











Here's the transmission end. Im going to have a machine shop drill the bolt pattern into the clutch. 










and the part that goes in the middle, obviously going to have a machine shop make this for me. 









I also designed a flexible coupling, but I decided not to go this route, but here's a pretty picture of it. I was afraid the rotoflex wouldn't be round once it hit 11k rpm. 











I got two Eurotherm 605 VFD drives in. One is 2 hp, the other is 3 hp, I got them both for around 120 bucks on ebay! 
I also got my 2 hp motor which will run power steering and AC. Got that motor to run with the VFD










I got my VFD torn apart. I removed one circuit board, the one on the top left, and the VFD still runs! Slowly identifying what parts do what, and figuring out where my external IGBT's will connect. I also need to repace the current sensors with something that is scaled to 300 amps instead of 7.











I got a precharge circuit and DC bus working today. I also hooked up my IGBT to a lamp and got it to turn on and off using a 0-10 Volt potentiometer. 










I also pulled the rotor out of the motor and replaced the open bearings with sealed bearings









Im making good progress considering I bought the car and got started 5 weeks ago! Im also working 10 hour days at a startup. I have more pics and videos on my webpage http://etischer.com/awdev/


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

Good progress!!

That rotor looks like any other squirrel cage motor rotor. Can you snap a pic of the stator and windings if its still apart.

Check the boards of the VFD to see what type of IGBT drivers they use. I think IGBTs like to be turned on hard and fast. 

You should take a look at this site:
CNCzone.com 
More than enough info about VFDs and motors, look in the electronics forum.
________
trichome


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

There's no shortage of pics...











The motor is a 6 pole. 


thanks for the link, I'll check it out. 

I think you are right, the igbts like to turn on all or nothing. Any voltage drop across them just heats them up. Basically using 6 PWM signals to generate a sine wave.







Denniscnc said:


> Good progress!!
> 
> That rotor looks like any other squirrel cage motor rotor. Can you snap a pic of the stator and windings if its still apart.
> 
> ...


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

Noticed there are many new photos on his website, a little out of order though, there are some up to the 18th October:

http://etischer.com/awdev/


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is my update!











The transmission and motor were mounted in a CNC. All dowel pins, shaft centerlines, and bolt holes were located using a dial indicator mounted to the spindle head.











The adapter plate was made from 3/4" aluminum plate. 2 dowel pins, and a centering ring locate the plate to the centerline of the motor shaft. The plate is bolted to the motor using 14 counter bored allen bolts. 










Three dowel pins were machined into the bell housing adapter and match the existing dowel pins on the transmisison. 7 bolts will attach the plate to the transmission. 












The non-essential parts of the clutch disc were removed. 3 dowel pins locate the cltuch disc to the coupler. 









3 dowel pins locate the taperlock fitting to the coupling. Six bolts clamp the assembly together.









Coupling clamped onto the motor shaft. The unused bolt holes in the coupler are used as jacking threads when removing the taperlock fitting.











Done!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I also have my home brew AC Drive working in V/Hz Mode. I can get the motor to turn about 170 RPM before the 15A circuit breaker trips on the outlet. Once I get my battery pack built up, I can test at full load, 300A. 




















I have short video showing the motor running at the top of my page... http://etischer.com/awdev/

Cheers!
-Eric


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## rallyshark (Sep 19, 2008)

very interesting read, keep us posted!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I got my motor mount done! I used 3" x 1.25" C channel. 










Also got started on my first battery box, this one goes where the stock gas tank used to be.


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

nice build man, i am an audi/vw mechanic, one thing i noticed is that you dont have the mount that bolts to the oil pan of the ice 1.8 engine and goes in the the front carrier. with out this mount the engine lifts up and breaks the two front engine mounts. it may even break your strap that you made to hold the engine down. just a heads up


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

mill said:


> nice build man, i am an audi/vw mechanic, one thing i noticed is that you dont have the mount that bolts to the oil pan of the ice 1.8 engine and goes in the the front carrier. with out this mount the engine lifts up and breaks the two front engine mounts. it may even break your strap that you made to hold the engine down. just a heads up


Wow, thanks. There are plenty of easy ways to put that mount back on, thanks for the info!


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## mill (Aug 22, 2008)

no problem, if you have vw questions let me know, i have seen a few cars that a bodyshop had left that mount off after a front end repair and the car comes in with the motor wacking the hood when you step on the gas in drive.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

How is this EV coming? I am really interested on how well the controller/motor combo works out.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm still working on getting enough batteries and cables together. I'm also headed to paris for two weeks for new years, so hopefully I'll get power on late January!


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

this is awesome!

do you realize if you could actually make plans or even build those controllers and motor+trans adapter kits you could make a small fortune...

EVers have been wanting to use that ford motor for YEARS...

I wish you much success!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Im finally getting a chance to get back on this project. Here are some updated pics. I think I'm about 2 weeks away from firing up my controller for the first time


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## evcars (Mar 15, 2008)

Very Very nice work!!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

This is probably the first conversion I have ever seen to use the surplus ford ranger AC motor. Do you plan on being able to use regenerative braking?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I like that crimper, bet that wasn't cheap.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

This is one sweet conversion. What are you using for throttle control?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

david85 said:


> This is probably the first conversion I have ever seen to use the surplus ford ranger AC motor.


http://evalbum.com/1454


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My first go around the inverter will be running in volts/hz mode which I don't think will do regen. 

I have current transducers which need to be integrated, these will provide the needed feedback for the inverter to do "sensorless vector" mode. This will have regen. The drive has a pretty sophisticated auto tune routine, hopefully it will still work after I'm done hacking it. The inverter will think a 2 horsepower motor is connected, even though it's pumping out 90 hp. 



david85 said:


> This is probably the first conversion I have ever seen to use the surplus ford ranger AC motor. Do you plan on being able to use regenerative braking?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The Passat has throttle by wire, so I will just use the existing electronics. Hopefully it is a 0-10 pot.



TheSGC said:


> This is one sweet conversion. What are you using for throttle control?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

sorry for the double post, here is another update. I got my controller running!

I'm slowly working out the bugs in my inverter, but I reached a great milestone today. I was able to run the Siemens motor up to full speed, and it was super smooth. In previous runs the motor was shaking really bad, the heat sink was over heating and IGBT was tripping on over current. I think I have the major bugs worked out now, so I uploaded a video!


http://etischer.com/awdev/alive/Alive.wmv


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Went for a drive around the block today!

http://etischer.com/awdev/alive/test_drive_small.wmv


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Awesome! Though I would be scared driving that with the control pad.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

TheSGC said:


> Awesome! Though I would be scared driving that with the control pad.


Well, I couldn't resist. I've been using these drives for about 6 years so I know the menus like the back of my hand. I have a kill switch too just in case.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

This thread is way cool! Great you finally got some use out of all this work. 

I'll bet you drive it to work soon with a speed pot in one hand and the steering wheel in the other if you haven't already! 

Great job!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Those wipers are really really loud


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## Denniscnc (Jun 20, 2008)

Im gana have to fly over get a pizza and stop by to give you pat on the back!!! Keep up the good work!!
________
marijuana trichomes


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Denniscnc said:


> Im gana have to fly over get a pizza and stop by to give you pat on the back!!! Keep up the good work!!


you're welcome to stop by, I'll be taking my gas guzzler off road all this weekend though.


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## BurqueEv (Feb 11, 2009)

Any updates when we will be seeing your controller on ebay?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

BurqueEv said:


> Any updates when we will be seeing your controller on ebay?


I still have quite a few bugs to work out, but everyday seems to get me closer. I got my encoder feedback working and a crude water cooling system setup. Been driving it around for the last 4 hours trying to improve low speed stablity. I think I have everything else sorted out.

I'm gonna bite the bullet and buy a brand new VFD, the one I'm using is about 15 years old. Control algoritms have improved over the years to the point AC induction motors are just about as good as servo motors. 

Anyhow, to answer your question, I'm guessing atleast a few months. Hopefully sooner than 6 months.

my speed feedback!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Then all we'll need is a motor without that funky shaft the Siemens motor has.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Maybe one of these ABM motors


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

that belt is pretty noisey!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Hmm, never considered that. The belt drive on my 6 wheeler is quite a bit quieter than the chain I was using, but you can still hear it and it's a lot smaller than that one. However I was thinking of a single ABM motor, can't they be run a lot higher than 84 volts with the right controller? I think the HPG motor I'm using could go higher if there were a controller available to do so, though I don't know the upper limit. The Curtis maxes out at 130.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Hmm, never considered that. The belt drive on my 6 wheeler is quite a bit quieter than the chain I was using, but you can still hear it and it's a lot smaller than that one. However I was thinking of a single ABM motor, can't they be run a lot higher than 84 volts with the right controller? I think the HPG motor I'm using could go higher if there were a controller available to do so, though I don't know the upper limit. The Curtis maxes out at 130.


The ABM motors that are stacked in Rogers MR2 were rewound I believe. You can wind them up to any voltage you want.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Then all we'll need is a motor without that funky shaft the Siemens motor has.


I'll be selling my adapter plate and motor coupling too


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Got my brakes working










I also started building my prototype using the hardware I plan to use in production! It is only running in V/hz mode, and already it is way smoother than the last prototype. 


I retained most of the original frame for structural support, sheilding and to protect the circuit boards.









I can't wait to hook up my encoder card and current feedback and put this baby to the test. I just went on the maiden voyage and I can already tell it is much more refined. There is about twice the electronics in the new drive.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What vacuum pump are you using, is it quite, how much?
Will your controller work on any AC motors at any voltage? What's the min and max?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm using a thomas vacuum pump from ebay, about $150 bucks. I found a sweet vacuum canister with barbed fittings and a fitting for 1/8" pressure switch. It is reasonably quiet, the loudest part is the exhaust. I need to put a muffler on it. I cannot hear it when I'm driving. 

Minimum motor voltage? It can be tuned to run down to 1 volt if you like (provided the motor insulation can stand 300v "Inverter Duty Rated"). I haven't tested how high the voltage can go, but it is probably around 350v. 

For example, if a motor name plate is 230v @ 60 hz @ 2000 rpm, and you command the drive to go 1000 rpm, it will output 115v at 30hz. If you command it to go 3000 rpm, it will output 345v at 90hz. It is not uncommon to run a motor 150% of nameplate speed. 




JRP3 said:


> What vacuum pump are you using, is it quite, how much?
> Will your controller work on any AC motors at any voltage? What's the min and max?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

got my charger installed. 










I also had to redo my motor mounts. The VW mounts ruptured. The oil leaked out and they deflated. I now have solid rubber mounts.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey, looking good! What model is that Manzanita??


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

It's the PFC-20 with the Ammeter. The ammeter option was like $450 buck, kind of a rip-off, but I wanted the convenience. 



DIYguy said:


> Hey, looking good! What model is that Manzanita??


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Glad to see your new/production VFD model in operation, what about regen are you using their DC brake/resistor modules or is your cooling and caps strong enough to go without them?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a new video posted showing the regen capablities. 

I also am using an S ramp instead of a linear ramp, it makes the car much smoother. Im also defining my own v/hz curve until I get current feedback installed. 

http://etischer.com/awdev/video/driving.wmv

At rest the battery pack was at 295v. 

Full throttle 245v

Full regen 345v.


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Eric, excellent stuff, thanks for the new teaser!
I'm wondering is your setup as of now consisting of 25x Optimas for full 312V (as per spec & pictures at evalbum) or is it rather 20-(my guess *23x)-25x Optimas, while your website shows 24x batts., little mistery we have here  )

I'm asking because of your 345V full regen voltage and the limit you have chosen for your batteries in that mode, is it still under 15V per single battery, hopefully?

*which gives most sense as per open voltage for Pb chemistry


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have 25 blue top. I was really surprised to see 100 volt swings from accel and decel. The pack voltage was pretty low, so I'll check out what the sag is like with a charged pack. 



Mesuge said:


> Eric, excellent stuff, thanks for the new teaser!
> I'm wondering is your setup as of now consisting of 25x Optimas for full 312V (as per spec & pictures at evalbum) or is it rather 20-(my guess *23x)-25x Optimas, while your website shows 24x batts., little mistery we have here  )
> 
> I'm asking because of your 345V full regen voltage and the limit you have chosen for your batteries in that mode, is it still under 15V per single battery, hopefully?
> ...


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi there, can you put some details and pictures of your IGBT block design?

It's awesome work you're doing. I'm building a conversion myself using an industrial ACIM with controller, but I have an undersized controller and had wondered about building a separate IGBT block as you have done - would love to hear your details.


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## lottos (Jun 22, 2008)

congrats Eric, you're ahead of the competition, published in/on Wired!

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/multimedia/2009/05/gallery_ev


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The company I work for, Solyndra, installed six EV charging stations for us! We have four people commuting in electric vehicles!


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Now, how cool is THAT.


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

That's cool, but where are the charging outlets? Are these standard mains or 240V mains for you?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Hemon Dey said:


> That's cool, but where are the charging outlets? Are these standard mains or 240V mains for you?


 
oh, the outlets are between parking spots behind the car. 115v 20a x 3 duplex outlets. I only consume 2kwhr =)


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Hey, that's a really cool company you work for  ... really interesting videos too, gotta love those crane shots ... NICE!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Hemon Dey said:


> Hey, that's a really cool company you work for  ... really interesting videos too, gotta love those crane shots ... NICE!


Yea, the video only shows a small part of our manufacturing process, hopefully they will show more in the future. Our company just got loan for 535 million Obama bucks!

here's a link to the video hemon was referring to.... http://solyndra.com/Products/Videos


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## Joeav8r (Jan 17, 2009)

Wow, cool, every company shoud have such a charging station!

Its great to hear that the US are going to invest more money in regenerative energy....


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

So, Eric, are you using your company's product at home?

Eric


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

esoneson said:


> So, Eric, are you using your company's product at home?
> 
> Eric


Nope, I'd like to, but our product is designed for flat roofs and my home has a slanted roof. 

Our solar panels don't get bolted down, they just sit there like a coffee table. This makes installation very cheap. Since they are made of round tubes, the air can blow though them, and since they are round, they don't need to be mounted at an angle, or track the sun. They are also more efficient on a white industrial roof, instead of a dark roof like my house has. I would probably be better buying a traditional solar panel for my home.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I put my car on the scales... 4010 lbs without driver.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great build there.

I was hoping for inspiration for my car to be converted at some point. I have a 2001 Skoda Octavia, essentially the same car as the Passat I think but with the transverse diesel engine.
The motor installation would be different but I'm impressed at how many batteries you managed to tuck away.

However, it's my daily 20,000 mile a year drive so I can't make it my first conversion.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

After 41 days, I finally got my carpool stickers!


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Well deserved recognition from the State.

Eric


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Time for an update!

I got my ThunderSky cells. 




















They are taller than my old cells, so I had to rotate my motor 90 degrees which puts the junction box on the side










I added tapered aluminum spacers which give me a level and parallel mounting surface for my rack. 











I moved my vacuum pump and added a radiator










I integrated ratchet strap mounts to the rack for holding the cells down.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now this is going to be an awesome car once you are running on lithium!!!

I'm going to pull up a chair for this next phase. Easily one of the best builds to date.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

etischer said:


> Time for an update!


how much weight do you stand to lose with the lithium conversion?

i assume you will redo your previous performance testing, I am excited to see the results.

any update on you releasing/selling your inverters?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The lithium cells are 300lbs lighter than the lead pack. I'm distributing more cells to the front of the car too, which should help with traction. The rear of the car should be 240lbs lighter. The front will be about the same since I added a radiator, and my battery rack is a bit heavier. 

I'll certainly be re-doing the performance testing. At 280 amps, I should have 310v, with lead I only had 280v, a 10% increase in power. Weight will be reduced about 6.5%. I also added a radiator, and I'm directing more water flow to my IGBT's which should allow me to run higher continuous power. I'm hoping to get 0-60 under 15 seconds using only 2nd gear. 

I probably won't be selling my inverter. There are new inverters about to hit the market, interestingly from the same company who makes the inverter that I hacked

For the labor involved in making each inverter by hand in low quantities, my inverter isn't going to be very cost competitive (around $5k). Add to that supporting customers (tech support), added liability on my end, and my lack of free time, there aren't many reasons for me to go into the inverter business. Besides, I'm already trying to get into the BMS business. 




Bowser330 said:


> how much weight do you stand to lose with the lithium conversion?
> 
> i assume you will redo your previous performance testing, I am excited to see the results.
> 
> any update on you releasing/selling your inverters?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

etischer said:


> The lithium cells are 300lbs lighter than the lead pack. I'm distributing more cells to the front of the car too, which should help with traction. The rear of the car should be 240lbs lighter. The front will be about the same since I added a radiator, and my battery rack is a bit heavier.
> 
> I'll certainly be re-doing the performance testing. At 280 amps, I should have 310v, with lead I only had 280v, a 10% increase in power. Weight will be reduced about 6.5%. I also added a radiator, and I'm directing more water flow to my IGBT's which should allow me to run higher continuous power. I'm hoping to get 0-60 under 15 seconds using only 2nd gear.
> 
> ...


I see, all good points...

I assume with your industry insider information you are able to know about the pending release of the inverters...can you share any more info with us?
price? capabilities?

There are quite a few small BMS start-ups and some for pretty inexpensive, what features do you plan to have?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The inverter I'm referring to is pictured on the Calmotors website, I believe Calmotors built the enclosure, Parker provided the inverter hardware. 


I can only tell you very general info about our BMS at this point. 

We are building a full featured BMS with:
Temperature compensated HVC and LVC. 
Alpha-numeric display and keypad
Communication link for comprehensive voltage monitoring.
Reverse voltage protection
2.5A shunting ability, current regulated
Water resistant enclosure, IP65 or better
 More features will be announced when the product is released!



Bowser330 said:


> I see, all good points...
> 
> I assume with your industry insider information you are able to know about the pending release of the inverters...can you share any more info with us?
> price? capabilities?
> ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What's your price target per cell? If it's more than about 10% of cell price a BMS doesn't make much sense.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

We are building more than just a BMS, it will also do monitoring and have a few other features, some not even related to batteries. 

Volt Blochers were the cheapest solution out there, and they were still twice your proposed budget. 

More than half the cost of my car is in the ($13k) battery pack. I don't mind spending money for a quality product which will ensure it's longevity. 

I'm hoping to get 10 years out of my pack. Do you think you will get 10 years out of your pack by spending that 10% buying spare cells instead of BMS? I think having BMS is less risky, and the added monitoring features will provide either peace of mind, or an early warning of impending failure. 






JRP3 said:


> What's your price target per cell? If it's more than about 10% of cell price a BMS doesn't make much sense.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I have read in threads that calculating remaining range/capacity can be a challenge, however is this something you are going to try to tackle, possibly with a digital read-out of "remaining miles"?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> We are building more than just a BMS, it will also do monitoring and have a few other features, some not even related to batteries.
> 
> Volt Blochers were the cheapest solution out there, and they were still twice your proposed budget.
> 
> ...


Dimitri's new BMS is about $12 per cell and includes temperature compensated HVC and LVC, and shunting if you want it. I don't. It just seems to me that people are losing sight of what a BMS should be for, to save you money. A $50 BMS on a $100 cell doesn't work out. A BMS is only doing something at the very ends of the charge/discharge curve, which should be avoided anyway for longer cell life. You can't get any more range than your smallest capacity cell provides, and if you stay well within 80% of it's capacity you'll be fine. If you need more range than 80% of your smallest cell can provide your pack is too small and you'll end up killing it prematurely anyway. I don't know what any of us will get out of our packs, but I don't know if I'd even need 10 years. I expect to see much better and cheaper technology available in 5 years or less. Improvements are happening all the time. As cells get cheaper and better there is even less need for a BMS.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I have read in threads that calculating remaining range/capacity can be a challenge, however is this something you are going to try to tackle, possibly with a digital read-out of "remaining miles"?


It will be supported, but may not be in the first release. We will have hardware hooks in place for it, and if it is not supported in the first rev, a firmware update will support it.


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## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> After 41 days, I finally got my carpool stickers!


Dimitri,
Your conversion has been an inspiration to me, very nice work! 
Did you have to prove anything to the DMV to get your decal? Would you mind explaining what the process was to get it?

Thanks.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

This is a pretty cool setup, my coworker is a Hard Core VW fan and he thought this was the coolest thing.

How many miles were on the dead motor when you got the car?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Travdude said:


> Dimitri,
> Your conversion has been an inspiration to me, very nice work!
> Did you have to prove anything to the DMV to get your decal? Would you mind explaining what the process was to get it?
> 
> Thanks.


Dimitri has a Mazda =) 

I had to get the VW inspected by the Bureau of Automotive repair to get a smog exemption. The DMV also did an inspection and I was able to register the car as Electric. I applied for the silver carpool sticker, and about a month or so later it arrived. 

-Eric.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

updates:


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Very nice car Eric! Aren't you concerned with water spray onto the cells under the rear of the car? Do you plan to enclose them?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Very nice car Eric! Aren't you concerned with water spray onto the cells under the rear of the car? Do you plan to enclose them?


I'm not worried about the cells getting wet. I'm obviously not going to be mounting bare bms boards to them though =) I had lead acid batteries located there for about 18 months and never had an issue, so I think I'm ok. I do plan to put those terminal covers on the terminals incase a cat or squirrel crawls in there for warmth.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I put my first 80 miles on the car over the last two days. I put the car on the scales and it is 300 lbs lighter with the Lithium pack, it's 3700 lbs now. 

The car feels great, I've missed driving it. I find myself rarely breaking 100 amps even accelerating on the freeway. The first 80 miles has averaged about 350 wh/mi. 

I have current limited to 260 amps, 2.6C. I monitor voltage at 100 amps to determine SOC. 

I'm not using a BMS yet, still developing it. Im charging to 3.4v per cell which gives me plenty of ceiling. I think 3.4v is about 80% SOC. 

I have the pack divided into groups of 20 cells. The group voltages are all within 0.01 volts, so I'm pretty confident I'm not exceeding 4.2 volts. 

I parallel charged the entire pack when I first got the cells, it took about 8 days of charging!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

My experience with LiFePO4 cells is that 3.65V (+/- 0.05V) is ideal as a top end voltage. Charge up to that, then the voltage will rest down to 3.35 (+/- 0.05V) typically. I don't think cutting off the top end voltage at 3.4 will do any harm however.

Congrats on the car though. I've really been impressed with your build so far.
You set a new standard with every uptate it seems.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

david85 said:


> My experience with LiFePO4 cells is that 3.65V (+/- 0.05V) is ideal as a top end voltage. Charge up to that, then the voltage will rest down to 3.35 (+/- 0.05V) typically. I don't think cutting off the top end voltage at 3.4 will do any harm however.
> 
> Congrats on the car though. I've really been impressed with your build so far.
> You set a new standard with every uptate it seems.


Thanks david =)

I'm trying to keep lots of head room to prevent crashing though the 4.2v ceiling since I'm running without a BMS. It really makes me nervous not having a good way to monitor each cells voltage. I've been monitoring the cells in groups of 20, since it's too hard to measure the cells that are under the car. With only 4 charge cycles, I can already see some drift. 

After my first charge cycle, the voltage delta of 20 cells was 0.166V, after the fourth cycle the delta is 0.88V.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Thats strange. I never notices my LiFePO4 cells drift further apart with consecutive cycles, quite the opposite actually. However my experience is limited to my sample battery and that has a working cell balancer on the charger. So there is BMS on the recharge, just not on the discharge side. If I ever get my car running again, it will have a scaled up setup like that.

What is your bottom cut off voltage?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> The car feels great, I've missed driving it. I find myself rarely breaking 100 amps even accelerating on the freeway. The first 80 miles has averaged about 350 wh/mi.


350 wh/mi seems on the high side, was that mostly higher speed freeway driving?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> 350 wh/mi seems on the high side, was that mostly higher speed freeway driving?


Keep in mind my car is pretty huge, it's a Passat (now 3700 lbs), about the size of a Honda Accord. I'm also measuring from the wall. 

Going to work (27 miles) averaged 383 wh/mi (heater on)
Going back home averaged about 337 wh/mi (heater on)

This is about half freeway (60-75mph), and half traffifc (50mph). I have a massive 6% grade that goes on for about 2 miles, and overall pretty hilly terrain. 

Driving around town Ive gotten 345, 326, 379 over a total of 38 miles.

With the Li pack, I drive the way I would normally drive. With the lead acid pack I always had to baby it since the drive home was pushing 80% DOD and I needed every last wh.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I dont have a bottom cut off voltage since I dont have a bms. I have my inverter programmed to turn on a dash warning light at 290v (99 cells) and shut off at 270v. Im sure these will change once I get a bms, Im being super conservative right now, and only need to go 25 miles. 

how many watt hours of balancing do you think you are getting on a typical charge?




david85 said:


> Thats strange. I never notices my LiFePO4 cells drift further apart with consecutive cycles, quite the opposite actually. However my experience is limited to my sample battery and that has a working cell balancer on the charger. So there is BMS on the recharge, just not on the discharge side. If I ever get my car running again, it will have a scaled up setup like that.
> 
> What is your bottom cut off voltage?


----------



## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Keep in mind my car is pretty huge, it's a Passat (now 3700 lbs), about the size of a Honda Accord. I'm also measuring from the wall.
> 
> Going to work (27 miles) averaged 383 wh/mi (heater on)
> Going back home averaged about 337 wh/mi (heater on)


 Seems reasonable energy usage to me considering weight, from the wall, driving speeds, and heater on. What power is your heater? I have not been using a bms either, but I can easily access all my cells to measure rest voltage as well as voltages during charging. Like David, mine have gotten closer in voltage over time. They typically have a spread of around 12mV (range of most is around 5mV) during charging and less than 6mV at rest after charge (most about 2mV). The larger range during charging is mainly the result of a few lower capacity cells, one in particular. These ranges have remained stable over the last 15 or more charge/discharge cycles. Sky Energy 180Ah cells, 35 total.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I just realized when I charge at work I'm only charging with half the current since the outlet is 115v, I have 230v at home. I pull 18A from the outlet in both cases. 

variation at work = 9.3mV
variation at home = 44mV

This variation is based on measuring groups of 20 cells during the last few minutes of charging. At the time the charger is still pulling about 13-15 amps from the wall. I haven't measured cell to cell variation, but maybe I'll get a chance today. 

My heater draws about 6 amps. I use it for about 15 minutes of my 30 minute commute. Works out to be 20wh/mi. 


How much current are you charging with? 




tomofreno said:


> Seems reasonable energy usage to me considering weight, from the wall, driving speeds, and heater on. What power is your heater? I have not been using a bms either, but I can easily access all my cells to measure rest voltage as well as voltages during charging. Like David, mine have gotten closer in voltage over time. They typically have a spread of around 12mV (range of most is around 5mV) during charging and less than 6mV at rest after charge (most about 2mV). The larger range during charging is mainly the result of a few lower capacity cells, one in particular. These ranges have remained stable over the last 15 or more charge/discharge cycles. Sky Energy 180Ah cells, 35 total.


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Eric, are all your cells from the same batch? Are they Yittrium cells or before it was added?

Here is the view of my cells showing almost a month difference in production date between some cells, you can see the YYMMDD date format next to serial number.

Up to 2C my cells are all lined up, looking good on Paktrakr graph, but once you get to 3C its a mess, up to 0.3V difference in voltage sag between cells.

I think amount of disbalance over time is related to how much over 2C you pull and how often, since Puekert effect is starting to show its ugly head.

It maybe different on SkyEnergy cells since they are rated to 4C.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'll have to check my dates codes! I just assumed they would all be part of the same lot. The few batteries I looked at said LiFeYPO4, I'll have to check them all now!

Full throttle is 2.6C, but I don't think I ever hit more than 2C driving to work. The car feels plenty fast, I've really been happy with the performace. @ 2.6C I'm drawing 103 hp! 

If I don't mind the occasional over current faults I can pull 3C, but I'm quite happy at 2.6C knowing my batteriers aren't getting fried.





dimitri said:


> Eric, are all your cells from the same batch? Are they Yittrium cells or before it was added?
> 
> Here is the view of my cells showing almost a month difference in production date between some cells, you can see the YYMMDD date format next to serial number.
> 
> ...


----------



## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> I'll have to check my dates codes! I just assumed they would all be part of the same lot. The few batteries I looked at said LiFeYPO4, I'll have to check them all now!


Where would it say LiFeYPO4 on the battery?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh, my bad, guess the batteries don't say it. The MSDS that came with the batteries say LiFeYPO4 though. 

LFP shows 40.5% of the chemical index is "Y".

LCP cells show 18% Co and 17% Mn

LMP cells show 38% Mn. 




Travdude said:


> Where would it say LiFeYPO4 on the battery?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I checked the cells I had easy access to, those date codes are all 091102.

I also got my terminal covers. They didn't fit, the holes are spaced about 0.15" too far apart. 









I ended up cutting them in half and grinding them down to fit em. 










Note: you gotta pound them on with a mallot. The bolt head gets pressed into the pocket on the plastic cover. 



dimitri said:


> Eric, are all your cells from the same batch? Are they Yittrium cells or before it was added?


----------



## Travdude (May 11, 2009)

Ours are close, mine are dated 091117.

Those terminal covers still look good, and they are functional too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Those covers must have been for a larger size cell.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Those covers must have been for a larger size cell.


I double tripple checked with Dave at EV Components, he swears they fit properly on his 100Ah thundersky cells. Since I was able to make them work, I'm not complaining.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

*Costs!*

I added up my costs for the entire project. 

As the car sits now, I have spent *24,981.36*

Big ticket items were:
$1,800 The car itself, 2001 Passat
$1,638 Ford/Siemens motor
$1,450 Painting the roof and new front bumper
$12,334 Thundersky Cells, 99 100Ah
$1,163 Inverter brains

An additional $1,700 was spent on consumables and parts used for R&D. I had 85 invoices.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Money catches up fast ! 

Nice job Eric - Next build - AC.. I have dialup here in the woods BUT I looked at your video driving around with the pad in hand lol!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks, I thought I was getting off pretty cheap actually =)

$12k for batteries (thank you Dave!)
$6k for inverter, motor, tranny, mounts and machine work. 
$4k for the car, paint, springs, repairs...
$3k for power steering, power brakes, cooling system, battery racks, cable, misc.

Not bad for a 100hp AC conversion! 


Oh, forgot to include my charger, so now Im up to about 27k. 




Dave Koller said:


> Money catches up fast !
> 
> Nice job Eric - Next build - AC.. I have dialup here in the woods BUT I looked at your video driving around with the pad in hand lol!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Show me a better electric car that you can buy for that price. Its all relative and I think you did very well even at that price. What you did was beyond a simple conversion with off the shelf parts.

Man I miss driving mine!!!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Finally got the trunk area cleaned up!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, it's been 7 months... Time for an update!

I'm up to 10k miles now. When there's no traffic, Im usually cruising at about 75mph on the freeway. My 25 mile commute only uses about 30% of my battery capacity, so I don't need to drive slow. 









I bought the rain cover from a new model Passat and installed it on mine. It cleaned up the engine compartment quite a bit!










The cells mounted under the car (where the gas tank used to be) and behind the seat were impossible to access. I installed some din-rail mounted fuse holders in an easy to access location, now I can monitor and balance the cells remotely. This is where my BMS will connect when it is finally complete. 










I built a shelf above my batteries, this is where my BMS will be mounted. This pic was taken with the rear seats folded down.











My battery charger exhausts quite a bit of hot air, and since the charger is sealed in the trunk, this heat has no where to go. I added some blowers just above the chargers exhaust. They suck the hot air, and blow it out of the trunk though a hole behind the rear license plate. 









The exhaust hole behind the license plate. 










I got 0-60 down to 14 seconds using only 2nd gear. 

I got a $2400 tax credit for converting my car. 

I got an appraisal, my insurance required it once I added coverage for comprehensive. The car appraised for $52k!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is such a neat installation.

I must say that if it were mine the trunk would need an additional bulkhead to prevent all the stuff I carry bashing into the electrical bits.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Very nice, and that's good range. Have you tried a 0 to 60 with 1st gear?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Beautiful stuff man. Where did you get that terminal setup?


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Easily the best conversion I've seen here on the forum. I'm also impressed with the appraised value. Nice to see some recognition there!

Remind me what your current top speed is again? Last I heard you were aiming to match the TDI's 110 MPH.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

98.6mph is still my record, it was set May of '09, back when I was still running lead.

I think 110 should be do-able since the car is 400lbs lighter, and has about 10% more power. I really need to take it to a track though, getting caught doing 100+ will get me in deep do-do. I'm much more mature now =)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> Very nice, and that's good range. Have you tried a 0 to 60 with 1st gear?


 
I can't quite get to 60mph in 1st. The gear change takes about 1 second, which cancels out any gains from starting in 1st. I also have to be light on the throttle to prevent wheel slip. 0-60 is about the same just starting in 2nd. 

Here is a graph showing a 1st -2nd gear change 0-60, about 17 seconds with my lead pack.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

etischer said:


> 98.6mph is still my record, it was set May of '09, back when I was still running lead.
> 
> I think 110 should be do-able since the car is 400lbs lighter, and has about 10% more power. I really need to take it to a track though, getting caught doing 100+ will get me in deep do-do. I'm much more mature now =)


That reminds me of some of the earlier "night rides" when I was still testing mine. That would have been some deep do-do and not just because I was speeding.....lol

But yes, its probably not wise to advertise a car's top speed with a video of it speeding on public roads posted on a public website.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Beautiful stuff man. Where did you get that terminal setup?


 
I use them all the time at work. 
The part number is Wago 282-696 and the orange end plate is 282-333.

They aren't cheap, but they are easy to mount and wire to. They use a spring cage clamp to hold the wire, so you never have to worry about loose screws/connections. It's also really fast to make connections cause the clamp pops open, rather than having to tighten screws. 

These are also made by Wago, they are super handy.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL ---- 

This is great work! But here in Wisconsin I would put a screen over that trunk vent ! I have had mice get in and chew up things from a hole as small as a nickel --  !

I agree with David on the quality of workmanship!

Keep it up ......


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I was just looking at my graph, LOL! Look at the magenta line.










40 volts of sag during acceleration, and 40 volt surge during regen, glad those days are over!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> This is great work! But here in Wisconsin I would put a screen over that trunk vent ! I have had mice get in and chew up things from a hole as small as a nickel --  !


I'll second that. Trying to figure out how mice get into my car drives me nuts


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Very nice work as usual Eric. What insurance company do you have? Mine (AMICA) would only insure the car as the original ice vehicle, since they didn't know anything about the electric part.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have Mercury. 



tomofreno said:


> Very nice work as usual Eric. What insurance company do you have? Mine (AMICA) would only insure the car as the original ice vehicle, since they didn't know anything about the electric part.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I got the last of my cells wired up to the fuse holders. I also found clip in terminal markers that fit the blocks so I can label which battery the fuse corresponds too. 

The fuse holders are wired to the the first two groups of 21 cells, and the last group of 21 cells. It makes it easy to compare the voltage of the three groups to get an idea of how balanced the pack is.


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## mmark666 (Feb 21, 2009)

Eric,

do you mind disclosing what IGBT module you are using for your controller? I checked the thread and your very nice build blog, but couldn't find this information? I assume you are using an IPM (I think you mentioned that somewhere), do you use a Fuji 6MBP300RA060?

If so, would you use it again? It looks like your performance is somewhat limited by the 300A limit of your IGBT's...

Thanks,

Markus


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

A few more pics:


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I was thinking if you set your BMS boards up vertically with some air space below and above it might help the heat dissipation issues.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I think it will need much more than just natural convection to cool. I added a fan, it's not shown in the pic though. One advantage of having the plastic mounting brackets is the sides are sealed off, so the air flow from the fan is directed over the resistors. 

The power resistors on the distributed BMS boards have cooling on 3 sides. 

The resistors on the central BMS board have a power resistor on the left and right, and a circuit board covering the top. All 4 sides of the resistor are blocked. 

I'm planning to have my charger set to end charging at 3.37 volts, so the resistors should never come on. If I choose to manually balance, I'll crank up the voltage and baby sit the BMS to make sure it doesn't get too hot. 





JRP3 said:


> I was thinking if you set your BMS boards up vertically with some air space below and above it might help the heat dissipation issues.


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

3.37 / cell. that how huh?

Mine are set there at the moment too and they all seem to settle between 3.3 and 3.4 when charged. I always figured that to get the most out of them, 3.6 was ideal for the charger to shut off (then the cells rest down to where ever they want).

I guess that makes me feel a little better about a few cells being stubbornly reluctant to rise above 3.5.

So far I haven't been able to perform a true range test to see if there is any significant difference between 3.33 and 3.6V cut off for charging but from what others are saying, its isn't much.

I'm still in awe of how you put that controller together piece by piece. If I just had a little more time....


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

3.37 does seem as if you're leaving a lot of unused capacity on the table. My SE's with a 3.6 max voltage have a good deal of capacity between 3.37 and 3.43 or so.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My TS cells start to climb pretty quickly above 3.37. They are all within 2mv up to that point. I think that is where my knee is. Keep in mind, I'm charging at a pretty slow rate, about 4.5-6 battery amps. 

Unfortunately my minibms is not behaving well, some are shunting at 3.407, some haven't started shunting even at 3.489, I haven't figured out why. I know there is some IR drop in the wires, but this should account for at most 20mV. I suspect there is a noise issue with either my charger or DC-DC. I had a similar problem with the Volt Blochers, the noise was falsely triggering the shunting circuit. A filtering cap fixed the volt blochers, I suspect I may have to do the same to minibms. Putting a scope on the battery, I see quite a bit of noise. 

I also am a bit afraid of overheating the shunting resistors in the "centralized BMS boards", so I'd rather only shunt when I do a monthly balancing and can keep an eye on it. 





JRP3 said:


> 3.37 does seem as if you're leaving a lot of unused capacity on the table. My SE's with a 3.6 max voltage have a good deal of capacity between 3.37 and 3.43 or so.


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Great work! Sure wish my wiring looked that nice...

I just started driving my car last week, and am also debugging BMS issues (Elithion) - same problem - get most cells to 3.4V or so (46xTS200AH cells), then the charger gets shut off by the BMS due to a high cell - yet when you measure them they are all still close and not out of balance too much.

I spent some quality time with a voltmeter/ammeter/BMS monitor, and I see some oddities:
- BMS communication fault if I put a metal lid on the rear battery box (yet the front works fine with a lid)
- oscillations in the measured current (30%?)
- jumpy cell voltage fluctuations on some cells during charging
- occasional overvoltage warnings
- while driving, large undervoltages (which keep resetting my SOC)

I am sure a lot of these problems are noise-related. I have properly routed all inter-cell wires as close as possible to the inter-cell busbars. I am now adding shielding to every inter-cell wire to try and resolve this - major PITA.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

gdirwin said:


> - BMS communication fault if I put a metal lid on the rear battery box (yet the front works fine with a lid)
> - oscillations in the measured current (30%?)
> - jumpy cell voltage fluctuations on some cells during charging
> - occasional overvoltage warnings
> ...


in order:
Did you try grounding the metal lid / or is the box grounded ?
have you twisted pair feeds?
have you looked closely at connections for loose contact.
the next two sound like one connection loose or poor contact could trigger
under / over spikes...

But noise will do all the above....

Scope monitoring will help with analysis of spikes and noise....


----------



## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

etischer said:


> My TS cells start to climb pretty quickly above 3.37. They are all within 2mv up to that point. I think that is where my knee is. Keep in mind, I'm charging at a pretty slow rate, about 4.5-6 battery amps.
> 
> Unfortunately my minibms is not behaving well, some are shunting at 3.407, some haven't started shunting even at 3.489, I haven't figured out why. I know there is some IR drop in the wires, but this should account for at most 20mV. I suspect there is a noise issue with either my charger or DC-DC. I had a similar problem with the Volt Blochers, the noise was falsely triggering the shunting circuit. A filtering cap fixed the volt blochers, I suspect I may have to do the same to minibms. Putting a scope on the battery, I see quite a bit of noise.
> 
> I also am a bit afraid of overheating the shunting resistors in the "centralized BMS boards", so I'd rather only shunt when I do a monthly balancing and can keep an eye on it.


The BMS that I have mounts everything on a huge heat sink then uses a thermal switch controlled fan to keep everything cool. The fan is about 6" diameter. I think my setup is only capable of clamping with 0.5 amps per cell and each circuit has it's own trim pot. Pretty complicated but relatively speaking its actually crude compared to others we've seen.

lol, it doesn't use resistors either, just a mosfet and control circuit. Not sure I like that but it seems to work......


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## PROFGOBELI (Mar 25, 2008)

*Charging at work*

Hi Eric
Just a quick question @ your charging at work. Does "x2" in description of charging station mean you have 2 110v outlets? If so they are possably on both phases and might have 220v between hots. Quick test with meter and make up a double plug cable and charge from 220v? Later.
Dick


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

*Re: Charging at work*

The charging stations at work are probably one leg of 3 phase, I guess that would be 208 between two legs. We occasionally have all of our charging stations used, so I don't want to use two of them. My car is fully charged in 3 hours at 115v, so I don't have a need to charge faster. 





PROFGOBELI said:


> Hi Eric
> Just a quick question @ your charging at work. Does "x2" in description of charging station mean you have 2 110v outlets? If so they are possably on both phases and might have 220v between hots. Quick test with meter and make up a double plug cable and charge from 220v? Later.
> Dick


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

gdirwin said:


> ... am also debugging BMS issues (Elithion)


It pains me to read, here, that you have questions about your BMS, yet I don't see you asking for help through our free tech support forum, of which you are already a member.



gdirwin said:


> ...get most cells to 3.4V or so ..., then the charger gets shut off by the BMS due to a high cell


You may be rather unclear on how the balancing process works. Again, please do ask for help, and I will be glad to explain.
________
Ford Escape Specifications


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## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

Elithion said:


> It pains me to read, here, that you have questions about your BMS, yet I don't see you asking for help through our free tech support forum, of which you are already a member.
> You may be rather unclear on how the balancing process works. Again, please do ask for help, and I will be glad to explain.


Elithion has been helping through Travis - no complaints with Travis or with the Elithion forum - both have been most helpful. I am just whining about having to shield all my inter-cell wires - a fair bit of work.

I don't want to steal the thread - just saying I had similar issues, and they are probably noise related.

Once everything is working 100%, I will post a summary of my experiences - I am sure all will be rosy!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Gdirwin, 
what charger are you using?



gdirwin said:


> Elithion has been helping through Travis - no complaints with Travis or with the Elithion forum - both have been most helpful. I am just whining about having to shield all my inter-cell wires - a fair bit of work.
> 
> I don't want to steal the thread - just saying I had similar issues, and they are probably noise related.
> 
> Once everything is working 100%, I will post a summary of my experiences - I am sure all will be rosy!


----------



## gdirwin (Apr 7, 2009)

etischer said:


> Gdirwin,
> what charger are you using?


I have a Manzanita PFC40M - it uses bang/bang on/off control from the BMS during charging. I haven't used anything except 120/15 Amps yet - waiting to resolve some issues before charging at 240/40 amps.


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## Elithion (Oct 6, 2009)

gdirwin said:


> I have a Manzanita PFC40M - it uses bang/bang on/off control from the BMS during charging.


Only while balancing. Once you have given your pack a chance to fully balance (2nd stage), and if you have set the Manzanita's CV point correctly, it will move onto the 3rd stage of charging: charger remains on, with exponentially decreasing current. 

The 3 stages of charging:
http://liionbms.com/php/wp_charging_stages.php
________
Sl1000


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Going from 3.37 to 3.425 took about 12 Ah ( 4.8A x 2.5 hr). This is when my first bms started shunting. 

Some don't shunt till 3.515, so the higher I charge actually may make my balancing worse. 



JRP3 said:


> 3.37 does seem as if you're leaving a lot of unused capacity on the table. My SE's with a 3.6 max voltage have a good deal of capacity between 3.37 and 3.43 or so.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why are they shunting at different values?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I haven't had much time to investigate what the problem is. Seems like all the distributed bms is shunting within 5% of 3.5v which is pretty good. Centralized bms seems to be shunting between 3.4v - 3.5v

I might take some of the centralized boards out and bench test them. Actually, I can leave them in place and just take my fuses out =)




JRP3 said:


> Why are they shunting at different values?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I added a LinkPro! It is an amazing little device, and super accurate, I wish I had bought this sooner. 

My first day with it, I drove to work as I normally do, zipping though traffic and doing about 75 on the freeway (carpool lane of course). I consumed 25Ah over 23 miles, or about 350wh/mi

Second day I kept up with traffic in the carpool lane, but tried to limit acceleration to 100A (32kw). I consumed only 19Ah over 23 miles 290wh/mi











The gauge replaces my heater knob. The heater knob doesn't do anything anyways, and it's much easier to access the buttons in this location.











If noise is ever an issue, I'll pull the shunt signal out of the wire duct, but so far everything is working great!


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Eric,

nice and clean installation.

Regarding the Xantrex device, I am a bit puzzled. The datasheet says max DC voltage on the battery banks to be 35 V, where your battery system is somewhere around 300 V (forgot the exact number).

How did you deal with this, are you only taking the voltage over a subset of your cells, or do you have a voltage splitter (sounds risky) somewhere?

Thanks a lot, and keep up the sharing of your good ideas,


Huub


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a 350v to 12 volt DC-DC converter. I decided not to even hook up my prescaler, for what I'm using the LinkPro for, I don't need it. I have a voltage reading already on my inverter. 



Huub3 said:


> Eric,
> 
> nice and clean installation.
> 
> ...


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

New top speed, 105mph!

Top speed was tested on flat ground in 5th gear. 
Battery current was at 216 Amps, so I was drawing about 90hp from the battery.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice. What RPM? Was there more power left?


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

etischer said:


> New top speed, 105mph!
> 
> Top speed was tested on flat ground in 5th gear.
> Battery current was at 216 Amps, so I was drawing about 90hp from the battery.


Great stuff, well done.

I have the same satnav and I'm forever resetting the max speed.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Nice. What RPM? Was there more power left?


I have to go back and check what my ratio is in 5th gear, I never use it. 
I can increase the current limit since the inverter PID loops are much more stable when the RPM isn't rapidly changing. 

I don't think I'll be testing top speed again any time soon. My previous top speed of 99mph was taunting me, now that I'm in the triple digits, I'm happy =)


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

105 mph is good! Turn it up and bring that thing to the Salt Flats! *September 14-17, 2011
*http://www.saltflats.com

There should be several electrics running in 2011.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Eric!
Congratulations with the new electric Passat speed record! 
Don't get ticketed though! 


Just signed up here, reading as much as I can. I have decided to bite the bullet and do an conversion as well


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Nice. What RPM? Was there more power left?


should have been around 4550 RPM.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Congrats!!!

Does this mean you are now a member of 2 separate 100 mile clubs?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

david85 said:


> Congrats!!!
> 
> Does this mean you are now a member of 2 separate 100 mile clubs?


I suppose so =) Although I have not tested my range yet.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Congratulations Eric! Your conversion sure stands out.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

tomofreno said:


> Congratulations Eric! Your conversion sure stands out.


Thanks! 

Here's a picture of it charging from our new charging stations...


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Wish i worked there, i'de convert my car to electric.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

you'll have to get the new charging standard plug installed somewhere in the grill! 

http://currentevtech.com/SAE-J1772-Connector-and-Socket-p137.html


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Did you take that picture on a Sunday or did you arrive early because of doing top-speed tests


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Did you take that picture on a Sunday or did you arrive early because of doing top-speed tests


The other EV drivers work at a different buildings at the moment so I have 4 ev spots reserved just for me.



PatricioIN said:


> you'll have to get the new charging standard plug installed somewhere in the grill!
> 
> http://currentevtech.com/SAE-J1772-Connector-and-Socket-p137.html



I had thought about getting the J1772, but it is still too expensive to switch all of my cordsets over. I'd be into it for over $1000, and there is really no benefit right now since I have no reason to charge faster than 4 hours.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> ...I had thought about getting the J1772, but it is still too expensive to switch all of my cordsets over. I'd be into it for over $1000, and there is really no benefit right now since I have no reason to charge faster than 4 hours.


Eric,

Four hours seems fast enough. It would take a long time to win a pay-back on that kind of expense!

I think that your build and attention to detail qualify as the "Gold Standard".

I looked at your website over the week-end and see that you have not been idle.

A question too, where did you source your new cold plate?
It has an interesting offset and the efficiency looks great!

Mark


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I broke down and bought a J1772 receptacle =)

It was $125, and seems to be built reasonably well. The connector came with 1 foot leads, the power wires are 10 AWG. I mounted the receptacle in a plastic box, but I plan on making something smaller and more waterproof. I was surprised how much force it requires to plug and unplug the connection, it requires two hands and a foot!

Anyhow, I can now charge at 208V!


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Eric,

That looks great. How did you satisfy the J1772 protocol? Or did the receptical come with that built in? 

Got any links you might share for us to replicate what you did at the same cost?

Thanks,

Eric




etischer said:


> I broke down and bought a J1772 receptacle =)
> 
> It was $125, and seems to be built reasonably well. The connector came with 1 foot leads, the power wires are 10 AWG. I mounted the receptacle in a plastic box, but I plan on making something smaller and more waterproof. I was surprised how much force it requires to plug and unplug the connection, it requires two hands and a foot!
> 
> Anyhow, I can now charge at 208V!


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Eric,

One more question. What is setting the 208 volt limit? Your charger?

Eric


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I just happened to measure 208 volts on the plug at the time, I charge at 230v at home. 

I'll have to draw up the schematic for you guys since the document I have states it cannot be reproduced without permission. 

All you need is a diode, 2.74k resistor, 1.3k resistor and a switch. 

Actually, I was able to activate the charging station with my switch left on, so really all you should need is a diode and 882 ohm resistor (or 2.74k in parallel with 1.3k)


----------



## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

Does the charging station output DC to your pack, or are you using it to obtain 208 vac as an input to your on-board Manzanita?

You use 230 vac input when at home, don't you?

Did you use 120 vac at work originally? and did the Manzanita charge to the same voltage when switching between the different AC inputs?


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

so where did you get it??


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The charging station is basically just an outlet. It has a standard 115v outlet, and a 208v Level 2 "J1772" plug, you can use either. I have always used the 115v plug which is limited to 16A. 

I usually throttle the current down when charging 230v to keep the same current into the battery as it would at 115v. I'm not usually in a rush to charge up, but nice to have the option of charging 2x as fast. 




Weisheimer said:


> Does the charging station output DC to your pack, or are you using it to obtain 208 vac as an input to your on-board Manzanita?
> 
> You use 230 vac input when at home, don't you?
> 
> Did you use 120 vac at work originally? and did the Manzanita charge to the same voltage when switching between the different AC inputs?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> so where did you get it??


 
http://shop.transatlanticelectricconversions.com/J1772-Socket-female-10022.htm

There is a schematic on the webpage too.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

This is the plug side view (the wires come out the other side)

If you don't want the ability to turn the charging station on and off, you can connect the two resistors in parallel and eliminate the switch. 

Make sure you connect the ground


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

In North America, I always thought that 208 was used to describe 3 phase power ... and 230 or 240 was usually used to describe the typical single phase home owner electrical potential....


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> In North America, I always thought that 208 was used to describe 3 phase power ... and 230 or 240 was usually used to describe the typical single phase home owner electrical potential....


Yep, I believe:
3p 208v Line to Line = 120V Line to Neutral 
1p 230v Line to Line = 115V Line to Neutral

Charging stations will probably vary between 208v and 230v depending on if they are fed from a 3 phase source, or single phase.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I hit the 15k mile mark!

Manzanita Micro PFC20 can actually pull 30A from 208 volts! I called Rich and he said it was ok to do, the circuit breaker in the PCF20 is actually a 30A. If anyone is sizing their AC charging cables and plugs, I'd go 30A instead of 20!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done on the 15K mark! 

Are you the highest mileage project car on the forum?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I know Brian hit 15k a few months ago (s2k ev), so for sure he has me beat. 



Woodsmith said:


> Well done on the 15K mark!
> 
> Are you the highest mileage project car on the forum?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm at 20,000 miles and commuting 85 miles a day now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet! Keep racking up the miles, and battery cycles


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

etischer said:


> I'm at 20,000 miles and commuting 85 miles a day now.


Ya, good stuff. You have built yourself an awesome ride there Eric. How many cycles is that on the cells then?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

So you will be over 100,000 in 4 more years, and maybe around 2000 cycles. Are you charging at work and home? Will be great data to have! Everything still working fine - bms, motor, controller...?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Ya, good stuff. You have built yourself an awesome ride there Eric. How many cycles is that on the cells then?


I'm at around 800 cycles, I've charged twice every work day for 18 months. 
I don't know if these are considered real cycles though, my average drive is 25 miles which is only 25% of my packs capacity. 

The cells don't show any signs of weakness. The only issue I had was a BMS board going out causing a false alarm.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I charge at work and at home. 

I've had the failures in the last 3 years.

1. DC-DC died. There was an internal fuse that rubbed though the vinyl insulation on a capacitor and shorted out. 










Here is the new supply replaced under warranty, it's easy to see how this could fail again. I bent the fuse away so hopefully this prevents this problem from reoccurring.











2. A BMS board died causing a false alarm while charging. I later discovered the board was getting wet from road mist entering though a duct where the air filter duct used to be. I sealed that off and seems to keep the water out. The board had white corrosion on it. 
http://etischer.com/awdev/bms/DSCF7792.JPG


3. The Aux contact (not main contact) on my Kilovac got welded shut causing the contact to energize before the inverter was precharged. This caused my 300A fuse to blow. Contactor was replaced under warranty. I suspect the enconomizer circuit failed, causing the coil to have a higher inrush and holding current. This caused the aux contact to weld. 
http://etischer.com/awdev/drive/schematics/Drawing2_welded.gif 

I modified my circuit, so even if the contacts get welded, the contactor coil will not energize until the inverter is precharged. 
http://etischer.com/awdev/drive/schematics/Drawing4a.pdf

Other than that, everything has been working great. Inverter, motor and coupling have been totally reliable. 




tomofreno said:


> So you will be over 100,000 in 4 more years, and maybe around 2000 cycles. Are you charging at work and home? Will be great data to have! Everything still working fine - bms, motor, controller...?


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I finally got my speedometer and odometer working! I had previously removed the engine ECU and had no hopes of having a working speedometer. I got an email from an Aussie converting a VW and gave me the good news, the vehicle speed sensor also gets wired to the instrument cluster!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Have you compared your costs to what you would have paid with an ICE vehicle? This, of course, would not include lessening your carbon footprint and the satisfaction of a job well done.


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## cb9wagon (Jun 22, 2011)

Hello and congrats. i've been planning my own build and watching yours for about a year. Really nice work. i've built a few "conversions"( not electric but different swaps and such) and factory instrumentation in working order is a welcome improvement.

your work with your inverter gives me hope to revive my ac oem toyota one!. The work with your VFD is really is something else.

thanks for the reading
chris vaillant
surrey bc canada


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

etischer said:


> I finally got my speedometer and odometer working! .....
> the vehicle speed sensor also gets wired to the instrument cluster!


Unfortunately the Tach is not so simple on the model year 2001 VW. It talks to the ECM via CAN bus. No ECM - no tach.

The MKIV Jetta is very similar to the Passat in this respect. I had to install a 60 - 2 tooth (60 teeth with two missing) reluctor wheel on the motor and use the stock crank position sensor wired to the ECM.


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks for your input, I've talked to some people who are trying the same thing and had no luck. Or maybe it's you I've been talking to =)

I don't have a schematic yet, but I've read one of the wires (grn/blu) going from the ECU to the gauge cluster is a tach signal. I was going to hook up a 555 timer real quick to test it out. 

Failing that, the plan is to cut the traces on the circuit board and connect the tachometer to a 0-10 volt analog output from my inverter. The brute force approach to problem solving! I'll probably need a voltage divider to scale down the voltage, but this should definitely work. 







azdeltawye said:


> Unfortunately the Tach is not so simple on the model year 2001 VW. It talks to the ECM via CAN bus. No ECM - no tach.
> 
> The MKIV Jetta is very similar to the Passat in this respect. I had to install a 60 - 2 tooth (60 teeth with two missing) reluctor wheel on the motor and use the stock crank position sensor wired to the ECM.


----------



## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

etischer said:


> Thanks for your input, I've talked to some people who are trying the same thing and had no luck. Or maybe it's you I've been talking to =)
> 
> I don't have a schematic yet, but I've read one of the wires (grn/blu) going from the ECU to the gauge cluster is a tach signal. I was going to hook up a 555 timer real quick to test it out.
> 
> Failing that, the plan is to cut the traces on the circuit board and connect the tachometer to a 0-10 volt analog output from my inverter. The brute force approach to problem solving! I'll probably need a voltage divider to scale down the voltage, but this should definitely work.


Yeah, I PM’d you awhile back asking how you got the tach working.

You definitely need the factory wiring diagram. Get the Bently manual from Amazon…

That green/blue wire from the ECU to the gauge cluster is the legacy (pre-CAN) tach signal wire and unfortunately is not used on the CAN models. Also using a symmetric pulse train from a 555 will not work on the crank position sensor input. The ECU is looking for the null pulses created by the missing two teeth on the 60 – 2 reluctor wheel. Without that sync null the ECU throws the error code “implausible engine speed signal” and disables the tach.

Also I don’t think hacking into the cluster board by cutting traces would be very easy. The circuit board is a multi-layer job packed full of smt components. I quickly dismissed that option even for controlling the check engine light. I ended up just gluing a new LED on the circuit board for the CEL…

I also considered programming a micro-controller to multiply my 2 pulse per turn prox sensor output by 30 and suppressing two of those pulses to simulate the 60 – 2 pulse train. But I gave up on that as well and decided to go ‘brute force’ and just machine 60 – 2 tooth reluctor pattern on the back of the flywheel.

I spent the better part of a month getting the tach working in my 2001 Jetta. It was not trivial…


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is another brute force approach I have seen, these are from a guy named Ian in Australia. He talked me into getting my speedo working. 




























He is using the guts from a SAAS tachometer. 

I imagine I may not even need to cut the traces on the circuit board since the coils and circuitry that move the needle are probably pretty high impedance compared to 20ma from my analog output. Getting the tach working is not a high priority, I just bought an A/C compressor =)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

New toys!


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Nice, what did that set you back cost wise? and what power is it rated at?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

What are they and what are you going to use it for?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Its an air-conditioning system which can be run directly from the traction battery. Pretty neat stuff. IIRC Flux master is the brand?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The compressor is rated 4.4kW, at up to 420vdc. 
The compressor was around $700, inverter around $700. 

The electric compressor is actually pretty small, smaller than the belt driven compressor!


----------



## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Thats pretty cool!
Looks like some one was getting hot in the car!


How much do you think that will drain from your mileage? Guess that depends on the draw from your cooling fan and the blower fan.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My commute to work takes about an hour, and consumes 13kwhr. So assuming the A/C compressor was running 50% duty, I will consume 13kwhr+2kwhr. Looks like it would be about a 13% hit on energy consumption. 

I started welding up my compressor mount tonight. I'm planning on running the AC hoses around the front of the car, behind the bumper. Seems like this route would allow me to move the entire AC setup out of the way when I need to pull the motor out, without having to purge the refrigerant. 










The front end of the car has a steel pipe connecting the frame rails. I welded an 8 inch extension to the pipe, then welded my steel plate to that. I'll add some gussets once the A/C hoses are installed since I don't know how the hoses will run just yet. 










Tons of room!










Planning to install the inverter in the trunk, where it will stay clean and dry. 












joshg678 said:


> Thats pretty cool!
> Looks like some one was getting hot in the car!
> 
> 
> How much do you think that will drain from your mileage? Guess that depends on the draw from your cooling fan and the blower fan.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I got the plumbing complete this weekend. I flushed the A/C system and pulled it under vacuum with the brake booster vacuum pump. 









Before









After









New drier and two custom hoses. 






































This is what the flush solvent looked like when it came out the other end. It is looks clear as water when new.

I might have to wait till next weekend to power up the compressor.


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

etischer said:


> Planning to install the inverter in the trunk, where it will stay clean and dry.


Is the controller going to be happy being that far away from the compressor? I thought that generally controllers driving the motors needed to have shorter cables esp for the 3ph AC side?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The motor cable will be about 15 feet which is still pretty short. Usually for runs over 100 feet manufacturers recommend adding a line reactor. The manual doesn't say anything about cable length restrictions. I figure the controller will be happier in the trunk where it is clean & dry. That's where my traction inverter is too. 

I'm also debating on wether I should feed the A/C inverter with pre-charged power, or "always on" power. 



Hemon Dey said:


> Is the controller going to be happy being that far away from the compressor? I thought that generally controllers driving the motors needed to have shorter cables esp for the 3ph AC side?


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

etischer said:


> That's where my traction inverter is too.


I'm curious, how long are your traction inverter power cables?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Hemon Dey said:


> I'm curious, how long are your traction inverter power cables?


Motor cables are about 15 feet. 
The supply cables are about 5 feet.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi Eric,

Great to see the AC installed. You're welding skills really are a blessing. 

A note on the flushing liquid. You might have flushed the oil out of the compressor .


----------



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, I pulled an all nighter and got everything wired up and working. It was not without some issues however:

First: The diagram showing the pin-out is a mirror image of what my circuit board looks like, and a mirror image of the same circuit board pictured just above it on the very same page. Very confusing.

Second: Whether the image showing the pin-out is mirrored or not, it is still backwards, pin 1 on the drawing is actually pin 8. 

http://www.masterflux.com/userimages/mx-demx06_rel-c.pdf

Third: The electrical connector on the compressor is unlike any connector I've ever seen. I had to buy special 90 degree quick disconnect terminals which don't interfere with the rod welded to the spade on the compressor terminals. When I get more time, I'll edit this post and update it with the part numbers I used. 

Terminals on the MasterFlux Air Conditioner compressor:









At low speed the compressor draws 1.5 amps and at full speed, 4.0 amps (@ 330vdc). I need to put one more can of R134A in the system to top it off so these numbers may change a bit. The fuse on the circuit board is rated 30 amps, (which would have required 10 AWG). I'm running with a 20A fuse without issue, and I suspect I can easily run with a 10A fuse. I'm running my compressor though my traction inverters precharge circuit so I may have less inrush than normal, YMMV. 

The compressor is quite loud at full speed, certainly louder than my power steering pump and vacuum pump. I'll see if I can hear it on the freeway tomorrow, but I was surprised it was so loud. I ran it with short motor cables and long cables, made no difference. I'll post a video at some point. It also runs quite hot, too hot to touch after running for about 30 minutes at full speed, but not enough to trip the thermal switch (212 deg F). I plan on integrating the speed control into my traction inverter so I can adjust the compressor speed from my keypad. 

Mechanical installation was quite easy, they sell rubber feet to mount it which work out well. The hose connections were easy to find fittings for, and the compressor is nice and compact. 

The inverter that runs the compressor seems to be very well thought out. It has several fault conditions to protect itself, and it will make every attempt to restart after a fault occurs. It can also stream data (motor current, dc voltage, motor rpm, heat sink temperature) to a serial port, I haven't tried this one yet. All you need to make it run is a potentiometer (3 wires). I wired in a relay to disconnect the 5v Pot reference when the car's A/C relay is not energized. 

Very happy to finally have air conditioning!


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Would you be able to setup this compressor to pump the fluid backwards creating a heat pump system for winter time?


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

Most ACs use a reversing valve to change from heat to cooling.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yea im wondering if he has that setup or not. Most cars don't, and i wish they did.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Indeed,

I am wondering though whether heating in the winter would be sufficient (e.g. sub-zero degree Celcius like over here).

Efficiency wise it should be good, as even a moderate heat-pump will have a COP of at least 2, meaning that with 2 kW electrical power you can transport ca. 4 kW thermal power.

Do we know of a conversion where the AC also was used for heating?

Regards,


Huub



joshg678 said:


> Yea im wondering if he has that setup or not. Most cars don't, and i wish they did.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I've seen the reversing valves for sale, but I don't plan on trying to implement a heat pump. I have no room for any additional hardware, and don't want to make an already complicated system even more complex. 

It also seems like it would freeze over, I can already get frost on my A/C lines. I'll let someone else work out the bugs =)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I decided to run the compressor using an analog output from my traction inverter. I really hated the idea of adding a potentiometer to the dash. My "contactor closed" signal was already in my inverter, and I added in the A/C clutch relay signal, so all my interlocks are handled by the software in my inverter. 











I never need to run the compressor more than 50% speed, which is good news because it is so much quieter.


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

Thats awesome!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep - nice thinking - and a super job.......


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

etischer said:


> I never need to run the compressor more than 50% speed, which is good news because it is so much quieter.



That's so cool (literally)  ... very inventive!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I mounted the inverter in the trunk. Cooling hasn't been an issue, the compressor motor gets hot much faster than the inverter does. 

I found an enclosure that fits the inverter almost exactly, and I used a grommet plate to seal around the cables. 

(5) Molex 19008-0038, Quick disconnect terminals (for compressor motor & thermal switch)
(1) Bud Industries AC-408, Aluminum Enclosure 12" x 7" x 3"
(1) Murrplastik KDL/E grommet plate
(10) Murrplastik Grommets of assorted sizes.
(1) Molex 50-57-9402, 2 position plastic header (for motor thermal)
(1) Molex 50-57-9408, 8 position plastic header (for control signals)
(10) Molex 16-02-0103, female pins

Nobody noticed my A/C goes to 11 =)


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

etischer said:


> I mounted the inverter in the trunk. Cooling hasn't been an issue, the compressor motor gets hot much faster than the inverter does.
> 
> I found an enclosure that fits the inverter almost exactly, and I used a grommet plate to seal around the cables.
> 
> ...



Awesome job ... is the controller operating in basic V/Hz mode? ie. Is your analogue line is setting motor Hz? or is it operating in some kind of sensorless feedback?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

There is no encoder feedback from the motor, so I know it's not closed loop vector. I think it's running sensorless vector, the manual talks about self calibration the first time the motor is run at the factory. 





Hemon Dey said:


> Awesome job ... is the controller operating in basic V/Hz mode? ie. Is your analogue line is setting motor Hz? or is it operating in some kind of sensorless feedback?


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

etischer said:


> There is no encoder feedback from the motor, so I know it's not closed loop vector. I think it's running sensorless vector, the manual talks about self calibration the first time the motor is run at the factory.


That's interesting, I would have thought it were more a speed controlled device rather than a torque controlled device? Vector control may seem overkill?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Vector control gives you better control of torque. You can still run the motor in speed mode using vector control.

The inverter is able to detect a stalled motor, I don't think you can do that with just V/Hz. It could also be limiting the motor torque to prevent over loading the motor. The inverter certainly seems well thought out, I feel like it was worth the money I paid for it. 




Hemon Dey said:


> That's interesting, I would have thought it were more a speed controlled device rather than a torque controlled device? Vector control may seem overkill?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> Nobody noticed my A/C goes to 11 =)


LOL, nice touch


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

etischer said:


> Nobody noticed my A/C goes to 11 =)


Does it throw ice cubes at you?


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## ACEVS4US (Jul 21, 2011)

Hi Eric,
I've been following your conversion for quite a while now and I think what you've done is amazing.

I am planning a similar kind of project to yours, but will probably take a slightly different approach. I'm an Electronic Engineer so I am looking at building the hardware for a controller from scratch. I have bought an Atmel 3 phase induction motor development kit. 

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc7803.pdf

The kit comes with heaps of example code to get a low power 3 phase IM going in closed loop vector mode. I'll need to beef up the gate drive circuitry for the IGBT packs I'm planning to use.

Can you please tell me what process you went through in choosing your capacitor bank size on your DC bus in the guts of your inverter. Or was money the limiting factor? I notice you used film caps and electrolytics. Are the film caps for suppression of spikes fed back onto the bus? How many uFs is the bank?

I suppose you need enough capacitance to cope with the transient nature of the inverter. i.e 10-20kHz switching 400A. For a 10 volt ripple on the bus this would give a capacitance value of 400A/10V/0.0001s*2 = 8000uF. Which equate to about $700 worth of capacitor. Is this about right?

Keep up the good work 
Chris


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

In sizing my capacitor bank, I looked at pictures of what the siemens simovert inverters use, and what Ballard used in their inverter and basically doubled it. I added the film capacitors for the high frequency, they are designed to mount directly to large format IGBTs. The film capacitors also have much lower impedance compared to the electrolytics which are there more for energy storage. I'm starting to see lots of traction inverters using only film caps, so next go around I probably won't use the electrolytics. I bought a dozen on ebay for $100 bucks, so at the time I wasn't too worried about optimization, I just didn't want to blow up the IGBTs so I went overboard. 

I'd recommend buying caps that are easy to mount (have flanges), and that are designed for traction inverters. You might also call up a capacitor manufacturer and ask for application support. 






ACEVS4US said:


> Hi Eric,
> I've been following your conversion for quite a while now and I think what you've done is amazing.
> 
> I am planning a similar kind of project to yours, but will probably take a slightly different approach. I'm an Electronic Engineer so I am looking at building the hardware for a controller from scratch. I have bought an Atmel 3 phase induction motor development kit.
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

25,000 mile mark!

I drove 5000 miles in the last 3 months, so about $1000 in gas savings.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for all of the ongoing updates, it's great to see a long term report of your car! Fantastic build!


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Congratulations! May you have many more happy ev miles


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

30,000 mile mark!


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## Hemon Dey (Jul 31, 2008)

Totally awesome dude, keep it going!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Sweet. I assume no pack issues?


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

Man, you are racking up the miles! It will take me 2 more years to get to 30k. Great test case. I imagine you will be the first to see range start decreasing.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Great thread, I read you page long before I found this. Thanks for that.
my contribution is that everything should be IP65.
this means the Charger and BMS needs to be redesigned.

the different voltage comes from using different IC chip from different silicon plates. We have to go through a Input inspection to make sure that all units are all the same batch. We then test that group for the ranges they will have so we can compensate.

The Charger should not be brute force but programmable with Thyristors so you can ramp up (input AC) and set the Raw DC level.
Also there should be not fans but the heat should be outside the Case using exterior Heat Sinks with a Wire cage guard.

The BMS should have all but the Heat producing Component in a IP65 enclosure with the heat production components mounted on an exter heat sink or PCB that has a wire cage to keep fingers away for heat and any thing over 30 Volts. Dry skin usually is 60 Volts before current flows.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I manually ramp the charger and it's in the trunk so technically it is IP66. Without fans, the charger's heat sink would probably be larger than would fit in the trunk, and would look a bit old school with a wire cage around it. I have thought about going water cooled. =)

Cell mounted BMS boards are optically isolated, so on each board there is no more than 4 volts. Getting the entire battery pack IP65 isn't really feasible, but the car does have a belly pan and fender liners, I've never seen water on top of the batteries. The cluster BMS boards are in the trunk, so they're IP66. The BMS I designed is actually IP67, but never got around to finishing it. It took up the entire trunk, Mini BMS works well enough for me. Here's a pic of my IP67 BMS, just like you describe with the heat producing part outside of the enclosure =)














bjfreeman said:


> Great thread, I read you page long before I found this. Thanks for that.
> my contribution is that everything should be IP65.
> this means the Charger and BMS needs to be redesigned.
> 
> ...


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

etischer said:


> I manually ramp the charger and it's in the trunk so technically it is IP66. Without fans, the charger's heat sink would probably be larger than would fit in the trunk, and would look a bit old school with a wire cage around it. I have thought about going water cooled. =)
> 
> Cell mounted BMS boards are optically isolated, so on each board there is no more than 4 volts. Getting the entire battery pack IP65 isn't really feasible, but the car does have a belly pan and fender liners, I've never seen water on top of the batteries. The cluster BMS boards are in the trunk, so they're IP66. The BMS I designed is actually IP67, but never got around to finishing it. It took up the entire trunk, Mini BMS works well enough for me. Here's a pic of my IP67 BMS, just like you describe with the heat producing part outside of the enclosure =)


Nice I went a separate way of the main bms being slots with the heat production components on one end that stick out the end with a pull handle and the whirring sticking ou the back with a bracker similar to the PC card bracket for output. This lets me change Number of batteries.
There is a try color LED for status on the front. but can be also noted through the canbus it is in a place that is hard to get to. next Time I open it up will get some pictures.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

Unlike you Have 300KW alternator where the transmission use to be off the Tbird 460. This kicks in when the Battery sages.
The batteries are charged off the Raw DC bus when in charge mode and then are boosted to Raw DC level when the Ultras Sage.

Believe it or not my 30ft Fageol is 1000 on the front and 1500 on the rear axle. Helps that is an all aluminum except the power train.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

No battery issues! Sag is the same as it has always been, about:
10v per 100a when it's warm 
15v per 100a when it's cold
I'm using (99) 100Ah thundersky cells. 

I did have one Mini BMS board fail, but it failed in a safe way shutting down my charger. It had been getting wet and corroded because mist was coming though the old air filter inlet and blowing directly on the board. I've since capped the inlet off and problem is fixed. 

I have my battery current capped at 3C, and my average freeway current is about 0.6C. I typically don't go below 50% DOD. I'm definitely not pushing the cells as hard as most. 



JRP3 said:


> Sweet. I assume no pack issues?


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

etischer said:


> Well, I pulled an all nighter and got everything wired up and working. It was not without some issues however:
> 
> First: The diagram showing the pin-out is a mirror image of what my circuit board looks like, and a mirror image of the same circuit board pictured just above it on the very same page. Very confusing.
> 
> ...


These hermetic compressors are partially cooled by the vaporized refrigerant that is coming out of the evaporator. For best results mount it close to the evaporator. Also insulate the vapor line from the evaporator to the compressor.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

Salty9 said:


> Most ACs use a reversing valve to change from heat to cooling.


According to Waylin's blog the original EV1 had an AC/heat pump unit in it.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Didn't sound like he was too impressed with it though. 

I still think a heating element is the way to go. When it's 30 degrees outside and you need to get to 70 degrees inside, I think that's tough for a heat pump to pull off (40 degree differential). Not to mention the condenser will probably freeze over if it's wet outside. 





coulombKid said:


> According to Waylin's blog the original EV1 had an AC/heat pump unit in it.


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

etischer said:


> Didn't sound like he was too impressed with it though.
> 
> I still think a heating element is the way to go. When it's 30 degrees outside and you need to get to 70 degrees inside, I think that's tough for a heat pump to pull off (40 degree differential). Not to mention the condenser will probably freeze over if it's wet outside.


 You are so right. The good ones must also have a heat strip so that when there is no energy advantage it switches to purely resistance heating. Home units also have a defrost mode to clear ice from the outer coils. Waylin was also right about the excessive time lag involved in getting the system operating correctly even above 40 F. Now with apps to phone start them while still hooked up to shore power heat pumps would work better out here in the desert south-west. You'd dodge the start lag and stretch the miles-per-charge number when it isn't just too damn cold for a heat pump.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Finally got my Arduino wired into the dash. The tachometer motor is a stepper, so I'm using the Arduino and a stepper card to run it. I also replaced the dash clock with a 2 line LCD for displaying pack voltage and sag (lowest pack voltage from the last 30 seconds).


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Cool!

I'll get to play with Arduino PLCs in my electronics class this semester. Can't wait.

Its always great to see the OEM look preserved as much as possible. Swapping gauges out is easy, what you're doing here is not.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks =)

Don't wait for a class, just drop $30 bucks and buy an uno. I'd recommend buying a 2x16 LCD display too. 



david85 said:


> Cool!
> 
> I'll get to play with Arduino PLCs in my electronics class this semester. Can't wait.
> 
> Its always great to see the OEM look preserved as much as possible. Swapping gauges out is easy, what you're doing here is not.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

Eric,

It looks great in the dash.
Does the 7500 RPM limit of the tach cause any issues for you?
You've driven it quite a lot now, what RPM range do you find yourself using?

Mark


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The tach can hit 8k before reaching the end of travel. On the freeway I'm usually right at 4k which is right where peak power is (3rd gear). Accelerating on the freeway on ramp I'm in 2nd gear till about 7k before I shift to 3rd. 

I guess I forgot to mention on this thread that I'm now running closed loop vector with encoder feedback! I have a bit more torque at low speed =) The throttle is much snappier too. If I do have a fault, I can now reset the controller on the fly, since the controller knows the motor rpm from the encoder, it can pick up where it left off. Previously I had to bring the motor to a stop before restarting. 

I ended up installing an encoder on the motor, I had to design a bushing to fit inside the hollow motor shaft. The tone ring built into the motor was too coarse for my encoder card to read. 



















I chose an encoder disk and pickup because it was nearly impossible to find an encoder with bearings rated for 10k rpm. 






Weisheimer said:


> Eric,
> 
> It looks great in the dash.
> Does the 7500 RPM limit of the tach cause any issues for you?
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

35,000 mile mark!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice! Still no issues I assume?


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## dcproven (May 3, 2012)

Eric,
very nice build, I really like what you've done with this VW.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yep, zero issues, it's still running strong. Thunderskys are behaving just as they did when new, 2 1/2 years ago.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

etischer said:


> 35,000 mile mark!


Great milestone Eric. Contrats.  I've always liked your ride.

keep on motorin'


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

etischer said:


> 35,000 mile mark!


Congratulations, Eric.
I just read this thread from the start as well as your web info.
Enjoyed it tremendously. Very nice and tidy job you have done plus excellent photos.

This is a real inspiration for me. Thanks.

Agust


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## bigmouse (Sep 28, 2008)

Awesome work there! Just read the whole thread, but still have a question/clarification request. Are you still running the guts from your 2 (or 3) HP inverter on external IGBTs with scaled current sensors? Or has your controller evolved from that?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

bigmouse said:


> Awesome work there! Just read the whole thread, but still have a question/clarification request. Are you still running the guts from your 2 (or 3) HP inverter on external IGBTs with scaled current sensors? Or has your controller evolved from that?


Yep, still running the same controller =)


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

etischer said:


> Yep, still running the same controller =)


 That's great! I have about 2 1/2 years too, and no noticable loss in capacity, but only a bit over 18k miles. You're leaving me in the dust with your commute - which is great since you acquiring data faster.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I added a giant blower fan for cooling the trunk while charging. 









It sucks air in though the existing trunk vent, then blows air across my DC-DC and charger when plugged into 115/240. If I have the A/C on, then it runs drawing air across the A/C compressor inverter heatsink. 










It's rated 123 CFM, so it should exchange the air in the trunk every 30 seconds. We'll see how well it works when we start having those 100 degree days.


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## picaboo (Jun 11, 2012)

It is an fantabulously inspiring work!!!

I did not get one thing though. Do you use regen? If no, then skip the rest of my post. If yes, please see if you can address my Q.

I went through your page http://etischer.com/awdev/. I saw the connection diagram. I could not locate the regen path.

May be I am not seeing it because I do not still understand how it is supposed to be implemented.

When you tap the brake, is your inverter software actually changing the U, V, W phases so that the flux rotation direction actually reverses causing the motor to attempt rotating in reverse? And since the motor is hard coupled with wheels (via transmission, no clutch) and the wheel still rotates forward due to vehicle's momentum, the motor rotor is actually forcibly rotating opposite to the flux rotation direction. And this causes current to be generated to the U, V, W terminal, with the direction from motor to the inverter? 

If the above is not correct, I will appreciate if you can educate me about what happens inside the motor when you tap the brake.

If the above is correct, I have follow up question. Now that there are 2 currents in opposite direction in each phase wire (connecting inverter and the motor terminals), the resulting current direction will be determined by the direction of stronger current. At the beginning (just after tapping the brake, when the flus direction reverses), since the car is still moving forward, the generated current overpowers the supplied current and the net current in the wires are flowing from motor towards inverter. But as the supplied current causes the motor to turn in reverse plus the effect of rolling resistance and road friction, the car slows down in the absence of accelarating torque and the generated current's strength diminishes. At some point the motor will come to standstill. The inverter should stop supplying current to motor, otherwise the motor will really start rotating in reverse causing the car to go in reverse. How is it done?

Now another important Q. When the current was flowing from motor towards inverter on all 3 phase wires, how is this current getting converted to DC and fed back to the traction battery pack? I mean those low side PWM circuitry and high side IGBTs can't play any role there, right? I did not find this path in your connection diagram.

I hope I am making some sense in my above questions. You can hit me if I am being absolutely silly.


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## ACEVS4US (Jul 21, 2011)

In an induction motor, normal operation is when the rotor is lagging behind the rotating field in the stator. This is referred to as slip being >0 and produces torque which turns the motor. Torque is produced by the interaction of the magnetic field in the stator coils (caused by changing currents in the stator coils) and the induced magnetic field in the rotor coils. It is actually the physical orientation of the two fields at any given moment that is producing a torque.

If the rotor spins faster than the rotating stator field (slip < 0) then you get regen. Regen happens because the orientation of the two fields produces a negative torque. The energy stored in the magnetic field of the rotor now induces additional voltage (a back emf) in the stator which is greater that the battery voltage. This is where free wheeling diodes of each inverter IGBT are necessary. The back emf foward biases the diodes and allows the additional power to pass into the battery pack.

So no additional electronics in a three phase inverter are required. 

Chris


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## picaboo (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks a lot Chris.

I actually found a good thread that explains regen.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=101851 post#5.

The above article and your explanation together is making sense to me now. I was thinking that the VFD tries to revert the phase of U, V and W so that the flux starts moving in opp direction. But that is not true. The VFD slows down the frequency so much that the flux rotation speed becomes slower than the rotor speed so rotor leads the flux propagation. This results reversal of torque direction, which acts opposite to the vehicle inertia and slows the motor. I think I got the essence of it, right?

I also understand now that the generated AC current flows through the free wheeling diods to V+ terminal of the battery. But those are nearly sinusoid (with some ripple due to stator sloting) and 3 different phases. Since these are going through the diode, I guess only the positive portion of the sinusoid that is greater than (battery voltage + the forward biasing voltage) will make to the battery, correct? Still there is no smoothing. Does it not hurt the battery with such undulating voltage (when you superimpose upper half of three phase sinusoids, you get a undulating waveform), especially when it is Li-ion pack?


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## ACEVS4US (Jul 21, 2011)

The capacitor banks and snubber caps take care of the ripple voltage


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Got pulled over, and recorded it with my dashcam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex1kZxK2WlM&feature=player_detailpage


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Guess he was a little ticked because you didn't let him in. However his lane wasn't ending so technically he had to yield to YOU (unless there was an emergency). If you closed the gap next to him, that's not breaking the law. He simply has to wait like everyone else.

You handled it well though. I like how he changed when he realized you had everything recorded.


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## bjfreeman (Dec 7, 2011)

In Washington Statethat is a ticket.
the car in front of you was signaling to pull over and you cut him off.
ticket for unsafe lane change.
Glad you did not get one.
speaking from experience.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

What kind of recording device are you using ? I like those date, time, speed ......... information on the video.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

bjfreeman said:


> In Washington Statethat is a ticket.
> the car in front of you was signaling to pull over and you cut him off.
> ticket for unsafe lane change.


I doubt any state has a law that the person signalling for a lane change has the right of way over the person already in that lane. Looked to me as if the cop intended to do the same maneuver that Eric did but was surprised by Eric already next to him. No ticket possible, and he knew it.
Eric, was he aware that he was being recorded? Also, do you always have a dash cam running?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

This is the camera: Smarty BX1500+ HD 120

I have it set to always record, but you can set it up to only record when you press the record button or if it senses an impact, then it will save the previous 20 seconds and the next 20 seconds. 

The software works really well, when you play back the video, it has other frames that show your car overlaid on google maps and has a graph of xyz acceleration. 

I was pressing the record button while the officer was talking to me, the camera's right behind my mirror, so I'm sure he saw the camera.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> Got pulled over, and recorded it with my dashcam.


So...it does show that your car has good acceleration!

It also looked like he "took it personally" to some degree...I suppose we all have had those days too. 

I like the dashcam display and how it has all of the data down low and not all over the image.

Which dashcam are you using?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Weisheimer said:


> Which dashcam are you using?


This is the camera I bought, on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270826464675&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Cops don't like to be passed no matter what speed they're going or lane they're in. At the front of every traffic jam there is guaranteed to be a copper doing 5 under. 

It's especially funny the way he randomly yaps about it's crazy changing lanes like that to get on the highway (After seeing the cam and realizing he can't fabricate grounds for a ticket). Everyone has to get from the right lane to one of the left lanes, and it's just crazy to do that by changing lanes!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

40,000 Miles!

Not much to report, I did buy a Tesla Roadster charge port and made an adapter. Now I can charge at work at 208V! 










I also made a bracket which allows me to lock my charge adapters in the trunk so they can't be stolen.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This has to be one of the highest mileage lithium conversions. How is cell capacity holding up, and what is your typical DOD cycle?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't notice any degradation from when they were new. Still sagging 10 volts per 100 amps. A little better in hot weather, a little worse (15 volts/100 amps) in cold. 

I'm draining the pack exactly 50% once a day, 5 days a week. I don't pull more than 3C, my average draw is less than 1C. I think that's the key to a long life. 

Forgot to mention we're installing solar too! Just enough solar to cover 50% of our usage, and lower our bill 80%. 













JRP3 said:


> This has to be one of the highest mileage lithium conversions. How is cell capacity holding up, and what is your typical DOD cycle?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

That's awesome! I love solar, and i wish i could get it. Too much money for me. I did get new windows, which save me about $40 a month so far haha.

How long have you had this car converted?


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

etischer said:


> Forgot to mention we're installing solar too!


Hey Eric. Congrats on hitting 40K miles. How many oil changes, filters, hoses, belts and "check engine" trips to the dealer have you done? 

Tell Elon to bring Solar City to FL! I called them and they said it wasn't even in their future plans at the moment.

JR


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Congrats Eric,
40k miles, that is some serious rolling. 

Does the latch prevent you from closing the trunk while charging? Not sure what the climate is there, but would'nt it it allow rain water to enter the vehicle when its not all the way closed?

What about installing the Tesla port onto the charge cap/port of the vehicle so the trunk can be closed? Did I miss anything ? 

//Steven


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

I put together a small summary looking back

Battery date code - 091102 (November 2 2009)
1/2/2010 Post 86 "Time for an update! I got my ThunderSky cells."
2/6/2011 15k
5/19/2011 20k and commuting 85m/day
8/19/2011 25k
12/14/2011 30k	
5/4/2012 35k
9/15/2012 40k

I'm not sure how many miles were with the Blue Tops since your mileage counts started about 8 months of lead driving, I'm curious what mileage numbers to put towards the ThunderSky pack.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The latch allows me to lock the trunk, but have a gap to get the cables out. I have a plug behind the gas filler door, but I wanted a way to lock my adapter cable so it doesn't get stolen. The trunk is pretty well protected from the rain, even if it's not closed all the way. 



steven4601 said:


> Congrats Eric,
> 40k miles, that is some serious rolling.
> 
> Does the latch prevent you from closing the trunk while charging? Not sure what the climate is there, but would'nt it it allow rain water to enter the vehicle when its not all the way closed?
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Total mileage with the Optima Blue tops was 3323 miles.
First drive with the Thundersky pack was Feb 6th, 2010. 




MN Driver said:


> I put together a small summary looking back
> 
> Battery date code - 091102 (November 2 2009)
> 1/2/2010 Post 86 "Time for an update! I got my ThunderSky cells."
> ...


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## Agust Sigurdsson (Oct 25, 2009)

etischer said:


> My first go around the inverter will be running in volts/hz mode which I don't think will do regen.
> 
> I have current transducers which need to be integrated, these will provide the needed feedback for the inverter to do "sensorless vector" mode. This will have regen. The drive has a pretty sophisticated auto tune routine, hopefully it will still work after I'm done hacking it. The inverter will think a 2 horsepower motor is connected, even though it's pumping out 90 hp.


Hi Eric

I have skimmed all your posts with great pleasure and congratulate you with your extremely successful EV conversion.

I am starting a EV conversion project where I will try to follow a kind of lowest cost path - at least untill the batteries come into the picture.

I will base my conversion on an AC motor and will follow a similar path with the controller as you did. That is to use a small industry standard inverter as a controller for a set of external IGBTs. In that spirit I have bought a couple of Saftronics VM720P7 inverters on Ebay as well as a set of large IGBTs and optocoupler drivers to put in between them. 
Being an experienced EE I believe that I have sufficient knowledge for this project but I am not entirely at ease unless I have a internal wiring diagram for the Saftronics inverter. So I asked the Saftronics people for help and to send me a wiring diagram but they declined. 

Since you have followed a similar path it occurred to me that you might know where I might find helpful documentation of this kind. Even a generic circuit diagram or appnote for the Mitsubishi PS11034-Y1 IGBT power module which my Satronics VM720P7 unit has would help a lot. This is a module with all six power transistors, rectifier diodes and some control circuitry potted in one block. 

Also I would appreciate it a lot if you would be so kind to send me a schematic for your controller as it ended up after your modifications. I understand that you may be reluctant to publish too many details of this kind on this forum for reasons of electrical safety. So would I.

Therefore I ask you to use direct email to: [email protected] rather than reply on this forum. 

Thanks in advance and keep on adding up Electric kilomiles.

Agust Sigurdsson


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Just got our solar switched on. SolarCity did the install, and at the same time upgraded my utility drop to a 200A service, and installed a jumbo sized main disconnect panel so I can install a 100A Tesla charger or L14-50 outlet. They did this all free of charge!


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

WOW!! that looks pretty awesome.
How much power will that array generate?

Is is a 2 Pole 200A? Thats a lot of juice i only have 100A.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

It's supposed to do 5,000 kWh / year. Yesterday it did 11.4kWh, not bad considering it's mid december. 

Yep, 2 pole 200A main breaker (240v). That seems to be standard now for new homes. The model S quick charger uses a 100A feed all by itself! 




joshg678 said:


> WOW!! that looks pretty awesome.
> How much power will that array generate?
> 
> Is is a 2 Pole 200A? Thats a lot of juice i only have 100A.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

Looks great! I wish SC would do anything down here, their business model is 80% awesome. Guess the juice is too cheap to justify the cost.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Solar make more sense when you have an EV and are on time of use metering, we are on PG&E's E9 rate. It's super cheap at night, but expensive during the day. The rate is also tiered so the more you use, the rate gets more expensive. 










In the first 12 days of the month we consumed all of our (cheap) tier 1 allotment. With solar, our tier 1 usage should last us almost the entire month. 


At the start of the month our power is cheap (tier 1). 









At the end of the month our power is 6x -10x more expensive (tier 5). 









Good thing is with solar, we can buy power for 9 cents from SolarCity, and sell to PG&E for 34-55 cents. Since our usage goes down, we are able to buy more off peak power from PG&E at the 3 cent rate. 

At the time I was driving 100 miles a day (charging 50 miles worth of range every night). Looks like I was using 20kwh to charge, so about 400whr/mile. My linkpro shows I get about 330whr/mile, so my charge efficiency is about 82%. 






Ziggythewiz said:


> Looks great! I wish SC would do anything down here, their business model is 80% awesome. Guess the juice is too cheap to justify the cost.


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

etischer said:


> Good thing is with solar, we can buy power for 9 cents from SolarCity, and sell to PG&E for 34-55 cents


That's pretty cool. I don't have tiered pricing so it's just a pipe dream, but I've considered the economics of charging a battery pack at night and using that to power the house during the day...maybe use a half worn traction pack or something.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

We did similar about 4 years ago. Installed 5.6kW of PV and upgraded to 200A service. Over the past 4 years it has averaged about 26kWh per day, which is enough for the house, my EV, and enough left over for around 30 miles per day for a second EV. NV has no time of use and they do not pay for excess power we produce.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> The model S quick charger uses a 100A feed all by itself!


You got an S?


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## joshg678 (Jan 25, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> You got an S?


Pics or it didn't happen.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

etischer said:


> I can install a 100A Tesla charger or L14-50 outlet.


The key word is :"or "


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Nope, although I am considering a model S, haven't bought one... yet =)

I'll probably end up holding out for the 3rd gen Tesla. 




JRP3 said:


> You got an S?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Me too....


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

50,000 Miles!

Everything's still running great. I've done about 10k miles in the last year, and my only expenses were for a set of front brakes and front tires. 

Here's a recent pic, we're lined up for the parade lap at the Refuel event at Laguna Seca.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Were the front brakes worn before the conversion? I would expect with regen they wouldn't wear much.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

This was the first set of brakes I put on the car, so I have no idea how many miles were on the previous set. At least 50k miles were put on by me, which alone is pretty good for brakes. 



JRP3 said:


> Were the front brakes worn before the conversion? I would expect with regen they wouldn't wear much.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, after 7 years and 75k miles, I finally had my first break down in the electric Passat. I had to have it towed home. My inverter was tripping on 'IGBT Desat Over Current' which is one of the fault output "FO" signals coming from the gate drivers in the IGBT module










I replaced the IGBT module and was back on the road in about 90 minutes. I just happened to have a spare 300amp IGBT module. Hopefully these things just wear out after 7 years. Might order some new snubbers just to be safe. 















































Wow, almost 3 years since my last update


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## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Nice work. One of the highest mileage DIY EV Ive seen.
I looked at the first few pages and saw lead, tell me you now have Lithium.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yep, been running lithium since Jan 2010



RIPPERTON said:


> Nice work. One of the highest mileage DIY EV Ive seen.
> I looked at the first few pages and saw lead, tell me you now have Lithium.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Nice, Eric! You just replaced the equivalent to an engine block. I can only imagine the amount of oil, muck and grease you had to deal with  

A new (better) snubber will make it run forever, assuming all connections are tight, your main caps are good, etc.

BTW, who has a spare IGBT module like that?  I imagine you're in line like the rest of us for a Model 3. Do you get employee discount and queue preference?

Regards,
JR


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a Model 3 reservation, there's no employee discount, but we do get to the head of the queue. 

I had a spare IGBT module since I blew one up early on in testing and figured I would be blowing up a few more till I got things sorted out. 





JRoque said:


> Nice, Eric! You just replaced the equivalent to an engine block. I can only imagine the amount of oil, muck and grease you had to deal with
> 
> A new (better) snubber will make it run forever, assuming all connections are tight, your main caps are good, etc.
> 
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Finally got around to making a video of my converted Passat EV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKR8Or6Im6w


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

And another video on the inverter


https://youtu.be/LmqJ6Oruh2A


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