# [EVDL] Battery Life



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It has 
only a deep cycle capability of five seconds of cranking about 300 amps.

For a on the road EV, A deep cycle battery normally can crank over 100 
minutes at 75 amperes. A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes 
and sometimes up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear 
right.

If a battery is discharge to 50% DOD it will last twice as long as it was 
discharge to 80% DOD. I have for the last past 6 years discharge my 
batteries to about 20%, so it is estimate they will last about 4 times a 
long or about 1500 cycles.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:52 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Life


> I'm looking at the Odyssey PC1750 Batteries for my 65 Datsun truck.
> 72 AH 58 lbs.
> (13) for a 156V system.
> They are claiming 400 cycle life at 80% DOD.
> I'm trying to design for a 50% daily DOD.
>
> Is there any way to get a rough estimate on cycle life at 50% DOD, base
> on the 80% rating.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland,
Your advice to Dennis is appreciated, but your comment about the Odyssey
battery needs correction. The 5 second discharge rating of the model PC1750
is much higher than 300 amps you mentioned. In actuality, it is 1750 amps.
That's where the model number comes from.

Of course, for a daily driver/commuter type, such a rating is less relevant
because we generally don't require such a surge from our packs. However,
many believe that because the Hawker/Odyssey's are used regularly by racers
and are know for high current capability, that they must not be worth
considering for standard road driving. 
Not so for many of us. Odysseys are a good all-around battery. They are
designed to perform well in both high output AND deep cycle applications.
Couple them up with a good controller and BMS and you can have a daily
driver that is a real gas to drive.
btw- The model 1750 has a 1hr. rating of 53 amps and a Reserve capacity of
142 minutes.

While this particular AGM may not meet the deep cycle specs of your pack of
floodies, please keep in mind that your 6500 lb.vehicle is in a different
category than those being built and driven by many other enthusiasts.
Hawker/Odyssey's are an excellent battery to consider for mixed mode
driving.

Thanks,
Richard Rau
Northwest Electric Vehicles
Corvallis, Oregon


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 7:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It has

only a deep cycle capability of five seconds of cranking about 300 amps.

For a on the road EV, A deep cycle battery normally can crank over 100 
minutes at 75 amperes. A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes

and sometimes up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear

right.

If a battery is discharge to 50% DOD it will last twice as long as it was 
discharge to 80% DOD. I have for the last past 6 years discharge my 
batteries to about 20%, so it is estimate they will last about 4 times a 
long or about 1500 cycles.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:52 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Life


> I'm looking at the Odyssey PC1750 Batteries for my 65 Datsun truck.
> 72 AH 58 lbs.
> (13) for a 156V system.
> They are claiming 400 cycle life at 80% DOD.
> I'm trying to design for a 50% daily DOD.
>
> Is there any way to get a rough estimate on cycle life at 50% DOD, base
> on the 80% rating.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This graph on commutercars.com might be of help:
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLife.jpg.




> Dennis J <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'm looking at the Odyssey PC1750 Batteries for my 65 Datsun truck.
> > 72 AH 58 lbs.
> > (13) for a 156V system.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks Richard.

I had the same opinion, but was not sure if I was looking at this right
or not.
My first choice with Odyssey was the PC1700/65 model because of the size
difference between it and the PC1700.
The PC1700 is too long for my application, but the PC1700/65 would fit.
Now I don't see the PC1700/65 listed on the web site anymore, but they
show a new model, the PC1750.

First, do you know if they still make the PC1700/65. I have based my
design on that battery.
Second, if it's not available anymore, do you know if there is a big
difference between the PC1700 and the PC1750.
The PC1750 is similar in size to the old listed PC1700/65. 
Looking at the specs, I don't see a big difference, but they do call the
PC 1750 a starter battery.

Any help is appreciated.
Dennis


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Rau [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:40 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

Roland,
Your advice to Dennis is appreciated, but your comment about the Odyssey
battery needs correction. The 5 second discharge rating of the model
PC1750 is much higher than 300 amps you mentioned. In actuality, it is
1750 amps.
That's where the model number comes from.

Of course, for a daily driver/commuter type, such a rating is less
relevant
because we generally don't require such a surge from our packs.
However,
many believe that because the Hawker/Odyssey's are used regularly by
racers and are know for high current capability, that they must not be
worth considering for standard road driving. 
Not so for many of us. Odysseys are a good all-around battery. They are
designed to perform well in both high output AND deep cycle
applications.
Couple them up with a good controller and BMS and you can have a daily
driver that is a real gas to drive.
btw- The model 1750 has a 1hr. rating of 53 amps and a Reserve capacity
of
142 minutes.

While this particular AGM may not meet the deep cycle specs of your pack
of floodies, please keep in mind that your 6500 lb.vehicle is in a
different category than those being built and driven by many other
enthusiasts.
Hawker/Odyssey's are an excellent battery to consider for mixed mode
driving.

Thanks,
Richard Rau
Northwest Electric Vehicles
Corvallis, Oregon


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 7:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It
has

only a deep cycle capability of five seconds of cranking about 300 amps.

For a on the road EV, A deep cycle battery normally can crank over 100
minutes at 75 amperes. A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery
amperes

and sometimes up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is
gear

right.

If a battery is discharge to 50% DOD it will last twice as long as it
was discharge to 80% DOD. I have for the last past 6 years discharge my
batteries to about 20%, so it is estimate they will last about 4 times a
long or about 1500 cycles.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:52 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Life


> I'm looking at the Odyssey PC1750 Batteries for my 65 Datsun truck.
> 72 AH 58 lbs.
> (13) for a 156V system.
> They are claiming 400 cycle life at 80% DOD.
> I'm trying to design for a 50% daily DOD.
>
> Is there any way to get a rough estimate on cycle life at 50% DOD,
base
> on the 80% rating.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis



_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes 
up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."

I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH pulls
about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
Neal



> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> > The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It
> > has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That statement refers to a high voltage systems, AC or DC.
At > ~350VDC traction pack you'd hard pressed to consume more
than 200 battery amps under hard acceleration.

I cruise @65 mph with 45 battery amps and never saw more than
140 amps consumed (345V pack). Granted, my EV is light and
low drag, but in general battery current will be reduced by the
same proportion as battery voltage is raised (all else being equal).

Victor



> shred wrote:
> > "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> > up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I made a boo boo, the below statement should read the capacity of 5 minutes 
of cranking about 300 amps. Its is over 1500 amps for about 5 seconds.

These batteries have brass terminals which will with stand that ampere. My 
lead terminals, cannot withstand over 250 battery amps for too long which 
does happen with my older CableForm controller using a 5.57:1 gear ratio. 
This cause shrinking of the lead post and I must check new battery 
connections at least three times before the torque reading is stable.

Using a Zilla controller, my maximum battery ampere I pull is about 125 amps 
using a overall gear ratio of 13.5:1. This is about 400 motor amps which 
peaks at about 3000 rpm, then as the vehicle is still accelerating while 
holding a constant accelerator position, the motor ampere starts to drop to 
about 200 amps and battery to 50 amps.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH 
> pulls
> about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It
> > > has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You can't quote Amps, because on a Higher voltage system the Amps will be 
less. (if all else is the same) It should be WATTS used when quoting 
power consumption.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH 
> pulls
> about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>
> >> The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It
> >> has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I also have a 120 volt rabbit conversion and it draws current similar to 
yours. I have seen some awfully low numbers quoted on this list, even for 
"low" voltage vehicles.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH 
> pulls
> about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> >>
> >> The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery. It
> >> has
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland;

Talked with an engineer at Enersys in my home state of Missouri.
He claims that they replaced the 1700/65 with the new 1750 to have a
true Group 65 battery.


All the Odyssey batteries are considered dual purpose, starter and deep
cycle.

The 1750 has a 20 Hour rate = 72 A/HR 10 Hour Rate = 65 A/hr
Claim 400 cycles @ 80% DOD. He estimated 800 cycles @ 50% DOD.
The 1750 also has the best internal resistance rating, at 2.0 m ohm. I'm
not sure exactly what that is telling me ?

Thanks;

Dennis



-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:03 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

I made a boo boo, the below statement should read the capacity of 5
minutes of cranking about 300 amps. Its is over 1500 amps for about 5
seconds.

These batteries have brass terminals which will with stand that ampere.
My lead terminals, cannot withstand over 250 battery amps for too long
which does happen with my older CableForm controller using a 5.57:1 gear
ratio.
This cause shrinking of the lead post and I must check new battery
connections at least three times before the torque reading is stable.

Using a Zilla controller, my maximum battery ampere I pull is about 125
amps using a overall gear ratio of 13.5:1. This is about 400 motor amps
which peaks at about 3000 rpm, then as the vehicle is still accelerating
while holding a constant accelerator position, the motor ampere starts
to drop to about 200 amps and battery to 50 amps.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH
> pulls
> about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > The Odyssey PC1750 is a combination cranking and deep cycle battery.
> It
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think the internal resistance is a measure of the maximum current draw from the battery the lower the number the more amps it can deliver. A battery with an internal resistance of 2 m ohm (i think 2 thousands of an ohm) can deliver twice the current of one with a resistance of 4 m ohm.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

Roland;

Talked with an engineer at Enersys in my home state of Missouri.
He claims that they replaced the 1700/65 with the new 1750 to have a
true Group 65 battery.


All the Odyssey batteries are considered dual purpose, starter and deep
cycle.

The 1750 has a 20 Hour rate = 72 A/HR 10 Hour Rate = 65 A/hr
Claim 400 cycles @ 80% DOD. He estimated 800 cycles @ 50% DOD.
The 1750 also has the best internal resistance rating, at 2.0 m ohm. I'm
not sure exactly what that is telling me ?

Thanks;

Dennis



-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:03 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

I made a boo boo, the below statement should read the capacity of 5
minutes of cranking about 300 amps. Its is over 1500 amps for about 5
seconds.

These batteries have brass terminals which will with stand that ampere.
My lead terminals, cannot withstand over 250 battery amps for too long
which does happen with my older CableForm controller using a 5.57:1 gear
ratio.
This cause shrinking of the lead post and I must check new battery
connections at least three times before the torque reading is stable.

Using a Zilla controller, my maximum battery ampere I pull is about 125
amps using a overall gear ratio of 13.5:1. This is about 400 motor amps
which peaks at about 3000 rpm, then as the vehicle is still accelerating
while holding a constant accelerator position, the motor ampere starts
to drop to about 200 amps and battery to 50 amps.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH
> pulls
> about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:14 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life
>
> Roland;
>
> Talked with an engineer at Enersys in my home state of Missouri.
> He claims that they replaced the 1700/65 with the new 1750 to have a
> true Group 65 battery.
>
>
> All the Odyssey batteries are considered dual purpose, starter and deep
> cycle.
>
> The 1750 has a 20 Hour rate = 72 A/HR 10 Hour Rate = 65 A/hr
> Claim 400 cycles @ 80% DOD. He estimated 800 cycles @ 50% DOD.
> The 1750 also has the best internal resistance rating, at 2.0 m ohm. I'm
> not sure exactly what that is telling me ?
>
> Thanks;
>
> Dennis
>
Hello Dennis,

20 Hour rate is the normal ampere-hour rating of a battery. You will note 
under some columns in a battery specifications chart, that the amp-hour will 
be listed under the 20 hr @ AH.

If we discharge the battery at 72 ah/20 hr = 3.6 ah, then we can discharge 
the batteries at 3.6 amps per hour for 20 hours to received all of 72 
ampere-hour.

Now some battery companies will list the 100 hour, 20, 10 and 5 hour rates. 
You will notice that when you increase the ampere draw from the battery, the 
actually ampere-hour of the rating goes down.

Actual battery capacity decreases as discharge current increases. A battery 
rated at 72 ampere-hours which can deliver 3.5 amperes for 20 hours, may 
deliver 15 amperes for only 4 hours, resulting in 4hr x 15A = 60 
ampere-hours.

The 10 hr rate at 65 AH becomes 65 ah/10hr = 6.5 amperes per hour. Lets 
say you draw 65 battery amperes, the battery capacity decreases more and 
will not get the entire 65 AH out of the battery.

Lets say you drive your EV drawing 65 amperes, it may deliver only 40 ampere 
in about 40 minutes discharge to 80% DOD. You will only have about 30 
minutes driving time to about 50% DOD.

It is best to find out what the Reserved Capacity in minutes that would be 
for a 20, 10, 5 and 1 hour rate, then you can use the following formula to 
find out what the actual ampere-hour is available at different ampere draw.


Reserved Minutes / 60 = X hrs

X hrs x Ampere draw = ampere-hour

Let say the reserved minutes of the battery is 180 minutes at the 72 AH 
rate, then:

180 min / 60 = 3 hrs

72 ah / 3 = 24 amps

or

3 hrs x 24 amps = 72 amp-hrs

This means you would have to drive the EV at 24 amps for 3 hours to deplete 
it to 80% DOD or about 1.5 hours for 50%.

A EV will normally be 50 to 75 ampere draw average, so you may have only 30 
to 40 minutes at 50% DOD.

Now this depends what you want to do, If you are traveling very short 
distances for demo purposes, this will be ok. For me, I was told a long 
time ago, is to carry the maximum amount of ampere-rating battery you can 
carry. They will last longer and it easier to stay above 30% DOD.

Roland


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is what concerns me:
I wonder why this PC1750 model battery at 2.0, has the best internal
resistance of all their models.
The PC1700 model which is very close in Weight, AH rating, and Reserve
Capacity, has an internal resistance rating of 3.5
They claim 400 cycles @ 80% DOD for all their models.

Did they thin the plates on the PC 1750 to accomplish this, or could it
be achieved with other design techniques.

Thanks;
Dennis 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Hrivnak [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 7:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

I think the internal resistance is a measure of the maximum current draw
from the battery the lower the number the more amps it can deliver. A
battery with an internal resistance of 2 m ohm (i think 2 thousands of
an ohm) can deliver twice the current of one with a resistance of 4 m
ohm.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pestka, Dennis J <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:14 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

Roland;

Talked with an engineer at Enersys in my home state of Missouri.
He claims that they replaced the 1700/65 with the new 1750 to have a
true Group 65 battery.


All the Odyssey batteries are considered dual purpose, starter and deep
cycle.

The 1750 has a 20 Hour rate = 72 A/HR 10 Hour Rate = 65 A/hr Claim 400
cycles @ 80% DOD. He estimated 800 cycles @ 50% DOD.
The 1750 also has the best internal resistance rating, at 2.0 m ohm. I'm
not sure exactly what that is telling me ?

Thanks;

Dennis



-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:03 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life

I made a boo boo, the below statement should read the capacity of 5
minutes of cranking about 300 amps. Its is over 1500 amps for about 5
seconds.

These batteries have brass terminals which will with stand that ampere.
My lead terminals, cannot withstand over 250 battery amps for too long
which does happen with my older CableForm controller using a 5.57:1 gear
ratio.
This cause shrinking of the lead post and I must check new battery
connections at least three times before the torque reading is stable.

Using a Zilla controller, my maximum battery ampere I pull is about 125
amps using a overall gear ratio of 13.5:1. This is about 400 motor amps
which peaks at about 3000 rpm, then as the vehicle is still accelerating
while holding a constant accelerator position, the motor ampere starts
to drop to about 200 amps and battery to 50 amps.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "shred" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


>
> "A standard EV will use about 30 to 50 battery amperes and sometimes 
> up to 100 battery amperes for hill climbing if the rig is gear right."
>
> I don't know about your EV but my 120vdc converted VW rabbit at 50 MPH

> pulls about 165 battery amps and about 280 going up hills.
> Neal
>


> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would guess that an optimum is reached at a certain size plate AND
minimal interconnect length

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello everyone.

I've been reading many threads for the past couple weeks now. This is truly
a great forum for EVr's.

Finally a question.

I have a car that I'm wanting to convert over now, just doing the research
on how much this will cost. The biggest thing I'm concerned with now is the
life expectancy of the batteries and overall cost.

Based on everyone's experience, how long will these batteries last? I read
an article in home power magazine discussing several battery types (lead
acid, nick met hydride, and lion batts. It didn't discuss much on length of
time they will last.

I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
trying to even determine if it's even worth (financially) to make this
conversion.

I have a long commute to work (60 miles each way). My employer in st.
louis actually has electric vehicle plugins..!! So, I want to take
advantage of that.

Any advise?

Thanks. Also, if anyone is close to St. Louis, MO, I would like to actually
see if I can meet someone to view their EV.

Nick
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

To be frank, if you are converting in the hope of saving money you
will probably be disappointed.

What kind of driving is the 60 miles? (How long does it usually take
you to make the trip?) If it is less than an hour, I don't think lead
acids will work for you in a conversion. You need a lot of carrying
capacity and a very aerodynamic vehicle. I don't know of any.

This brings you to the newer battery technologies which if you have a
good BMS may last a lot longer and can store more power for their
weight. The situation is improving, but this is still expensive and
relatively uncharted territory.

If your commute were 30 miles each way, I would be more optimistic.

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Nicholas Neuberger


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > I've been reading many threads for the past couple weeks now. This is =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is NOT intended to discourage you in any way from converting a car to
electric, but ...



> Nicholas Neuberger <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 23:59:12 -0400
> =

> =

> To be frank, if you are converting in the hope of saving money you
> will probably be disappointed.
> =

> What kind of driving is the 60 miles? (How long does it usually take
> you to make the trip?) If it is less than an hour, I don't think lead
> acids will work for you in a conversion. You need a lot of carrying
> capacity and a very aerodynamic vehicle. I don't know of any.
> =

> This brings you to the newer battery technologies which if you have a
> good BMS may last a lot longer and can store more power for their
> weight. The situation is improving, but this is still expensive and
> relatively uncharted territory.
> =

> If your commute were 30 miles each way, I would be more optimistic.
> =

> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Nicholas Neuberger


> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Hello everyone.
> > >
> > > I've been reading many threads for the past couple weeks now. This i=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You are an excellent candidate for either a Prius or Clean Diesel VW 
or Audi. I have a TDI and am very pleased with the mileage. 46 to 48 
combined city hwy. Excellent choice for long commutes. The Diesel will 
be your best bet.

Pete 






> Nicholas Neuberger wrote:
> 
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > From: "storm connors" <[email protected]>

> > To be frank, if you are converting in the hope of saving money you
> > will probably be disappointed.

> > ================================================================
> Right now, your best options are a plug in Hybrid or move closer to work.
> With a plug in hybrid like the "Volt" you can run on electricity 2/3 of
> the trip each way. And if you move to within 30 m1es, or if you can,
> use a train, streetcar, light rail, or express bus service to shorten
> your commute to 30 miles or less then a EV becomes usable. perhaps someone
> else in your family could put an EV to work as a commuter.
> 
> Dennis Miles, (Director)
> Electric Vehicle Training Institute
> in Central Florida
> 
> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Nick,

I faced a similar problem. I live in a rural area and the nearest 
town of any size is 25 miles round trip. I found a conversion with a 
range of 25-30 miles and bought it instead of making my own. 
Unfortunately there are a number of hills and I leave at the top of a 
good one. That meant I would be coming back and climbing a hill at 
the worst time. I found another conversion with a longer range and 
it was better, but I still wanted to go on errand runs that typically 
ran about 50-60 miles with the trip back up the hill at the end. It 
was not about saving money for me, but getting away from the use of 
foreign oil. I finally bit the bullet and bought a used RAV4-EV. It 
has a working range of typically about 100 miles and can be pushed at 
times up to 125. I now have no problem going 60, 70, and even 80 
mile trips without a problem and climbing that hill up to home. 
Unfortunately that does not help you with a conversion except to 
point out that to exceed say 40-50 miles on a regular basis, will 
require more modern batteries and technology than the typical lead 
acid conversion as others have pointed out. The RAV4-EV uses a NiMH 
battery pack, which if taken care of, will last upwards of 150,000 
miles. The replacement/refurbishment of the pack is in the $15K to 
$17K range currently. If NiMH packs were commercially available and 
continued to be developed, it is likely they would have even longer 
range and lower prices. Cars that would do exactly what you want 
were available for a short period around 1999 to 2003. Most of them 
were leased so the manufacturers recalled them and crushed them. A 
few RAV's and some Ford Rangers are still out there and can be 
purchased. There are also a few companies making conversions today 
with the kind of specs you want, but they tend to be pricey and a bit 
more complicated since they use AC instead of DC components and 
lithium batteries instead of lead acid.

If you are interested in finding EV's in your area to take a look at 
or if you are thinking about a particular conversion, check out 
evalbum.com. You can also find your local EAA chapter 
(www.eaaev.org) and join to find kindred spirits to answer questions.

John

ps: I am so happy with my RAV, I have my two conversions up for 
sale. 

---
John G. Blair Studio
Occidental, California
707-874-2399
http://www.jgblairphoto.com - general photography
http://www.johngblairstudio.com - commercial and stock photography
http://www.johngblair.com - author website






> Nicholas Neuberger wrote:
> 
> > I have a long commute to work (60 miles each way). My employer in
> > st.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I think everyone is right. I'm glad I asked first. The volt looks
very nice, but not sure how much that will run. I'm sure >$25k.

A friend of mine has a TDI that's converted over to run on vegtable oil.
Maybe I should do that instead. Right now moving closer isn't much of an
option.

I may just still convert it over, but use it for a grocery getter and close
runs. I wasn't really looking at it as a financial saver, because I would
spend at least $5k on it, but sounds like I wouldn't even make it too work.
I currently spend over $250 / month now on gas. That's due to my maybe
20mpg van now.

It sounds like a fun project though.

Has anyone converted over with almost used parts?

I guess my last ditch effort to tinker with EV, is to convert my "clunker".
It's a 99 Dodge Stratus, that has recently went bad due to bent valves /
blown timing belt / water pump. If I could build an EV that just has 10
miles of range, and built rather cheaply.

Is this even possible? I've seen some cars on this website that have
converted as little as $1200. That seems extremely low though.

I'm really interested in building one, but looks as if the 60 mile commute
is out the picture. I'd probably be better off just keeping the $5k and
keeping it for a TDI...

Also, my employer has plugins. I seriously don't think they are 220 Volt
plugins. The outlets look like based 120 volt plugins. They have one prong
that looks like a sideways T.. I was hoping maybe it's a 110 outlet, but
maybe supported more current.

How long on a 110V outlet, would an EV have to charge for?

I've seen many emails on here, mostly using 220 V chargers at home too.

Thanks for the responses...!!! awesome.

Nick






> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > You are an excellent candidate for either a Prius or Clean Diesel VW
> > or Audi. I have a TDI and am very pleased with the mileage. 46 to 48
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Nicholas Neuberger wrote:
> 
> > Also, my employer has plugins. I seriously don't think they are
> > 220 Volt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nicholas Neuberger" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 23:46:07 -0500

> Also, my employer has plugins. I seriously don't think they are 220 Volt
> plugins. The outlets look like based 120 volt plugins. They have one prong
> that looks like a sideways T.. I was hoping maybe it's a 110 outlet, but
> maybe supported more current.
> 
> Thanks for the responses...!!! awesome.
> 
> Nick
===============================================================================
Nick, what your employer has for an outlet group for EV charging, may be great
or a lot less and still be in compliance with the "Electrical Code" there. The 
ideal would be one outlet with a weather cover at each EV parking space with a 
"Sideways T" for one of the holes. Those are 20 amp @ 120 V. AC rated outlets. But 
the the electrician may connect up to 6 (or 8 in some towns) outlets to one 20 Amp.
circuit breaker, and the max average current for a 20 Amp. breaker is only 16 Amps.
(80%of max) which is barely enough for one EV charger. They could have connected 
each outlet to an individual circuit breaker, then many EVs could charge. (It 
depends on the contract specifications between your employer and electrical contractor.)
Of course you may not be very concerned unless you get a plug in hybrid vehicle...

Dennis Miles, (Director)
Electric Vehicle Training Institute 
in Central Florida


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There are lots of possible answers. Much depends on your personal goals. 

An EV can help you contribute less to various kinds of air pollution, use 
less energy, lessen your personal dependence on petroleum from foreign 
nations, send less of your money overseas. 

The importance of the above issues is very personal and varies greatly among 
different people. For some folks these are compelling reasons to drive an 
EV; for others they're of little consequence.

Another reason for having an EV is that it's a simpler, more elegant 
approach to transportation. (An electric motor has one moving part, and 
although most conversions retain the transmission, in theory it's not as 
necessary.)

An EV is fundamentally quieter and smoother, though ICEs these days are very 
highly refined machines in these areas.

Finally, because many kinds of electric motors can develop huge amounts of 
torque from zero RPM, there's a whole culture of drag racing which has 
embraced the EV. You can learn more about this at nedra.org.

Others may disagree, but I think that saving money, or trying to, is usually 
one of the less compelling reasons to drive an EV. You may indeed save 
money, depending on how and where and what you drive; but you may also end 
up spending more. Sometimes significantly more. Especially if you keep 
tinkering and improving your EV. ;-)

I'd suggest keeping your eyes on the market. Several automakers are 
promising to introduce EVs or true hybrids that may have the range you need. 
Whether they'll make good on those promises, I don't know. Their track 
record is poor. But Mitsubishi, Nissan, and Toyota all claim to have 
projects in the works, and there are others from Renault and a couple of 
Chinese automakers. Some or all of these efforts might land on these shores 
eventually. And if they don't, you an always come back here in a year or 
two; we'll still be here to help you get going on a conversion!

I realize it's controversial and I hesitate to bring it up because it's off 
topic for this list. But if you need a vehicle now and you'd like it to 
have a somewhat lighter environmental footprint, and an EV won't suit, some 
of the choices include high-MPG small cars and hybrids. Try greenhybrid.com 
and cleanmpg.com for info (I'm sure there are many other resources).

Some folks advocate biodiesel. You'll also find plenty of support for that 
option on the web (and lots of folks who will provide some interesting 
counterarguments). I used to have quite a few forums and the like bookmarked 
but I lost them in when my (huge) bookmark file got corrupted a few years 
ago, so I'm sorry I can't offer suggestions. But a good search engine will 
turn up many, many resources for this. 

These choices are subject to extensive debate over their actual 
environmental benefits. Such a discussion is again off topic for this list 
but you can find many advocates for both sides with a web search, and that 
should help you make your decision.

Finally, to bring this back on topic, I'd suggest that one way of getting 
your feet wet in EVs without spending a lot of money might be to pick up a 
good quality modern electric scooter or bike. These are great for local 
errand-running and don't require anything like the commitment you need to 
build a conversion car or truck. You can find a fair bit of E-scooter / 
bike / motorcycle advice on the V is for Voltage forum (visforvoltage.org). 
I'm sure there are others but that's the one I'm somewhat familiar with and 
they have a fairly long history.

Hope this helps. Good luck - keep in touch.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wonder how many are doing 60-100 mile trips regularly with their EVs?
We have about 6K miles of 60+ mile trips over the past nine months:
http://www.evalbum.com/2314

The cost of an EV with that capability can not be justified on the 
basis of replacing an ICE that uses $2/gallon gasoline. It can be 
justified as preparation for $5 or $10 gasoline. It can be justified 
as a reaction to WKTEC.

The 60-100 mile EV can now be made for less than $40K, including the 
cost of a new car and the conversion labor. That "low" price is 
possible due the relatively low price of lithium that EVComponents is 
providing. It looks like coming months will bring us quite a few 60+ 
mile lithium conversions. Let's hear about them here.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 657 days 1 hours 19 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Nicholas Neuberger wrote:
> 
> > I guess my last ditch effort to tinker with EV, is to convert my "clunker".
> > It's a 99 Dodge Stratus, that has recently went bad due to bent valves /
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Right now, the only good choice that I know of for this type of commute is 
AC drive with LiFePO4 batteries-expensive, but doable.

Battery life should be at least 5 years; but no one knows for sure, as the 
batteries themselves vary from different companies, and I don't know of 
anyone who has run them that long yet.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicholas Neuberger" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Life


> Hello everyone.
>
> I've been reading many threads for the past couple weeks now. This is 
> truly
> a great forum for EVr's.
>
> Finally a question.
>
> I have a car that I'm wanting to convert over now, just doing the research
> on how much this will cost. The biggest thing I'm concerned with now is 
> the
> life expectancy of the batteries and overall cost.
>
> Based on everyone's experience, how long will these batteries last? I 
> read
> an article in home power magazine discussing several battery types (lead
> acid, nick met hydride, and lion batts. It didn't discuss much on length 
> of
> time they will last.
>
> I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
> trying to even determine if it's even worth (financially) to make this
> conversion.
>
> I have a long commute to work (60 miles each way). My employer in st.
> louis actually has electric vehicle plugins..!! So, I want to take
> advantage of that.
>
> Any advise?
>
> Thanks. Also, if anyone is close to St. Louis, MO, I would like to 
> actually
> see if I can meet someone to view their EV.
>
> Nick
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

wow. I totally missed this first thread.  oops.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Nicholas Neuberger wrote:
> > I have a car that I'm wanting to convert over now... life expectancy
> > of the batteries... and overall cost... I have a long commute to work
> > (60 miles each way). My employer has electric vehicle plugins.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
> trying to even determine if it's even worth (financially) to make this
> conversion.

Here are the approximate life expectancies for the various batteries 
commonly found in EVs:

3-6 months for automotive starting batteries.
A terrible choice. Only used by beginners who don't know any
better, or by racers who only need them to run a few races.

1-2 years for 12v flooded marine, RV, or starting/deep cycle batteries.
They are about the cheapest to buy, but short life makes their
cost per mile rather poor.

1-3 years for AGM batteries.
Sealed lead-acid high-performance batteries, typically used to
eliminate battery maintenance, and to maximize peak power for
fast accelleration. They cost about twice as much as flooded
lead-acids, making their cost per mile higher.

3-5 years for 6v flooded golf cart batteries.
They are intended as electric vehicle batteries, and so last
pretty well for lead-acids. They are mass produced, so purchase
price is low. Coupled with their life, they typically give you
the lowest cost per mile.

3-6 years for gel batteries.
Gels are another type of sealed lead-acid battery. EV sized
ones have demonstrated good life, but have limited peak power
capability. They are best for modestly driven EVs. Initial
cost is high, which is partially offset by their long life.

2-4 years for lithium batteries.
This is hard to predict, due to lack of data. Most lithium
battery technologies are very new, and very little long-term
testing has been done (we mostly get marketing lies). The 2-4
year life estimate is based on how long lithium batteries last
in other consumer products.

5-10 years for industrial fork lift type batteries.
Also built for EVs. Extremely durable, but also very heavy and
expensive to buy. Not good for high speed vehicles; better for
low-speed applications where you drive many hours on a charge.

10-20 years for nickel-cadmium or nimh batteries.
About double the performance per pound of lead-acids. Nicads
and nimh built for EV use have proven to be very tough and last
100,000+ miles and 10-20 years. Though expensive new, their
long life can ultimately make them less expensive per mile.
Very difficult to buy today due to patent restrictions and fear
of cadmium.

20+ years for nickel-iron (Edison) batteries.
Invented nearly 100 years ago, some are still in service. They
typically die of negligence and abuse rather than from old age
or wearout. No longer fashionable, so very hard to find (only
poor quality Chinese copies are being made today).
-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nice list Lee!

Z



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > > I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
> > > trying to even determine if it's even worth (financially) to make this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

yeah thanks Lee, that is a great list.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > 10-20 years for nickel-cadmium or nimh batteries.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Keeping your eyes out for people selling used ones usually. That's how I
found the NiCad's for my house and for my truck. It may take a few years of
looking before a batch pops up though.

Z



> Dave Hale <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Oct 2, 2009, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dave Hale wrote:
> > You've mentioned NiMH and NiCd twice now; where can one get (either of)
> > these batteries?
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

there was a thread on here a while back about a chinese manufacturer ? or a
swiss ?
not sure, making large format NiMhs, search the Archives.

David brought up (I think) the point that they may not infringe the patents
held by certain
companies (COBASYS) where they are manf.
but you may even still run into trouble importing them.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For all practical purposes then, these batteries are not available. Unless
one can go to a store or pick up the phone and place an order for them, they
are not a viable option.




> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Dave Hale wrote:
> > > You've mentioned NiMH and NiCd twice now; where can one get (either of)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Oct 2009 at 12:46, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> 
> > Keeping your eyes out for people selling used ones usually. That's how I
> > found the NiCad's for my house and for my truck. It may take a few years of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

So neither are available new?



> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Keeping your eyes out for people selling used ones usually. That's how I
> > found the NiCad's for my house and for my truck. It may take a few years
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What about resellers for Saft Nicad?
http://www.rathboneenergy.com/batteries/nickel_cadmium/nicad.htm

Barry Oppenheim
New Hope, PA
www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On
Behalf Of Dave Hymers
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 3:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery Life


there was a thread on here a while back about a chinese manufacturer ? or a
swiss ?
not sure, making large format NiMhs, search the Archives.

David brought up (I think) the point that they may not infringe the patents
held by certain
companies (COBASYS) where they are manf.
but you may even still run into trouble importing them.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>
> You've mentioned NiMH and NiCd twice now; where can one get (either of)
> these batteries?
>
>
There is at least one vendor in the US selling Nilar batteries but be
warned, they are expensive:

http://www.coloradoadvancedbattery.com/product-p/cab-n-24v10a.htm
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 2 Oct 2009 at 16:02, Barry Oppenheim wrote:
> 
> > What about resellers for Saft Nicad?
> > http://www.rathboneenergy.com/batteries/nickel_cadmium/nicad.htm
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Murray <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > NiMH batteries from a wrecked Prius are readily available,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The [email protected] has batches that come up several times a year.
Rush
Tucson AZ



> Keeping your eyes out for people selling used ones usually. That's how I
> found the NiCad's for my house and for my truck. It may take a few years 
> of
> looking before a batch pops up though.
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*[EVDL] battery life*

I read in a recent issue of current events that Cobasy had been sold ,any one following this sale? Charlie p
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] battery life*



> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I read in a recent issue of current events that Cobasy had been sold ,any one following this sale? Charlie p
> 
> I saw that too. I was thinking they know the patent is expiring and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] battery life*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery life


>


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I read in a recent issue of current events that Cobasy had been sold ,any
> >> one following this sale? Charlie p
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nick;

I'm up in Lincoln Co, about an hour North of St. Charles Co.


Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Neuberger [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 10:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Life

Hello everyone.

I've been reading many threads for the past couple weeks now. This is
truly a great forum for EVr's.

Finally a question.

I have a car that I'm wanting to convert over now, just doing the
research on how much this will cost. The biggest thing I'm concerned
with now is the life expectancy of the batteries and overall cost.

Based on everyone's experience, how long will these batteries last? I
read an article in home power magazine discussing several battery types
(lead acid, nick met hydride, and lion batts. It didn't discuss much on
length of time they will last.

I've heard most batteries (I guess lead acid) last about 2 years, so I'm
trying to even determine if it's even worth (financially) to make this
conversion.

I have a long commute to work (60 miles each way). My employer in st.
louis actually has electric vehicle plugins..!! So, I want to take
advantage of that.

Any advise?

Thanks. Also, if anyone is close to St. Louis, MO, I would like to
actually see if I can meet someone to view their EV.

Nick
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