# Need help figuring out reverse



## mizlplix (May 1, 2011)

Maybe one of these with a simple toggle switch for forward/reverse?
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/curtis-et-134.html

And a normal reversing contactor?

The wiring diagram is included with most, but the vendor might have the diagram seperate also.

It is really quite simple. 

Miz


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> I am going to be using a 72v 200 amp brush motor(EMC-RT200) , with a psm-7240 in my boat. Haven't found a throttle yet.
> My problem now is that I am not sure how to wire in reverse.
> Do I need a reversing contactor? If so, how do I wire it in.
> It would be great if there is a throttle out there that would have built in reverse so that the throttle in the boat operates like normal(forwards - neutral/off - reverse)
> ...





major said:


> You'll need reversing contactors.


http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc100-047-A_DWG-AXE-PermMag-wire-dia.pdf


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks, I got the parts.

I'm just stuggling to figure out the reversing contactor. does it activate like a relay? Signal wire from reverse power on the throttle/tps?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Thanks, I got the parts.
> 
> I'm just stuggling to figure out the reversing contactor. does it activate like a relay? Signal wire from reverse power on the throttle/tps?


A contactor is a big relay. Typically a forward/reverse switch is used to energize the coil(s).


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Do I need a main contactor? Or can I just use a power on off switch? It only going to be used for maybe 10-15 minutes then shut off.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Do I need a main contactor? Or can I just use a power on off switch? It only going to be used for maybe 10-15 minutes then shut off.


Sure, you need a main contactor. Get the controller manual and read it.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Alright, I thought maybe the contactor just passed the power to the controller when the key is turned. But I supposed it is best to do it like the diagram you linked to. 

Thanks for all the help, I'll be back if it doesn't work


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

He could use a Sevcon or Sigmadrive 4Q controller. Then he'd get reverse with just a switch input. He doesn't need a F/R contactor, but DOES need a main contactor.

If he uses a standard motor controller like Curtis or Alltrax, he would need a F/R contactor.

If he wants Reverse, he could get one of these (note the voltages and get the right one).
48V: 
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_sevcon_4q.php
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_pgdrives_4825.php
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_pgdrives_4845.php

72V:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_sevcon_sem500.php
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_pgdrives_7217.php
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers_pgdrives_7235.php


Throttle:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_throttles_parsun.php
(has forward reverse switch built in)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Alright, I thought maybe the contactor just passed the power to the controller when the key is turned. But I supposed it is best to do it like the diagram you linked to.
> 
> Thanks for all the help, I'll be back if it doesn't work


Here's another diagram: 











Your motor (PMDC) will just have 2 terminals. You will need to wire the reversing contactor(s) between the controller and the motor. Follow the directions which come with your controller.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

A quick, possibly too advanced for me question;
Is it possible to have the motor charging the battery pack when I'm using the gas engine? I would have to have it setup so that I can engage and disengage the sprocket - which it will have anyway. 

Example;
I use the dc motor so long the battery pack won't get me back later. Then instead of "disconnecting" the dc motor from the propshaftI could simply keep it locked to the propshaft until I have enough charge, then "disconnect" it.

That brings me on to the topic of a voltmeter, do you recommend any specific meter?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

See previous post Major


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Now I feel really stupid. Can it just be left on and it will work as a charger? 
This is my first time working with dc or any form electricity.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> A quick, possibly too advanced for me question;
> Is it possible to have the motor charging the battery pack when I'm using the gas engine? I would have to have it setup so that I can engage and disengage the sprocket - which it will have anyway.
> 
> Example;
> I use the dc motor so long the battery pack won't get me back later. Then instead of "disconnecting" the dc motor from the propshaftI could simply keep it locked to the propshaft until I have enough charge, then "disconnect" it.


Yes, if you use one of those 4QD controllers frodus recommended in regeneration mode and had it programmed to do it. *You'll need to get the speeds right with the reduction you say your dad will take care of. So that might limit the speed of the gas engine to a troll when using the electric motor for charging. 



> That brings me on to the topic of a voltmeter, do you recommend any specific meter?


Go shopping at some of the vendors' web sites who advertise to your right on this page. Get an ammeter while you're at it. Or better yet, get a cycleanalyst (CA) from ebikes.ca.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

So the spm-72400 can't do it?

I'll check out the meters.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> So the spm-72400 can't do it?


Don't know. Read the manual and tell me


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

So the charging depends on the controller? I'll study the manual and see what I can figure out.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Now I feel really stupid. Can it just be left on and it will work as a charger?
> This is my first time working with dc or any form electricity.


I wouldn't start with this project then..... or I would hire someone locally (or join your local EV chapter) to help you with this system. It's not just a motor and batteries. From the sounds of it, you have no experience with electicity at all. 72V won't kill, but it could fry your investment if you hook things up wrong.

These controllers DO support regenerative braking, but I doubt very much that would work in a marine application. If you mean pluigging it into the wall, no, you need a battery charger for that. These DIY controllers you're looking at will not work as a charger.

What you should do is talk to Electric Motorsport (i.e. call them), and tell them you already have the Etek/Motenergy motor and want to buy a kit from them. Simple, easy and done. They should have a wiring manual as well. You would also need a charger for the batteries.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Man, I'm sorry. I didn't see the post with the manuals, only the one with the diagram from major.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I didn't post any manuals....... I posted a link to electric motorsport, who has the manuals on their website. At the bottom, it says "downloads" and has a "user manual" pdf

And reread my post, I edited it a little.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

frodus said:


> These controllers DO support regenerative braking, but I doubt very much that would work in a marine application.


Yeah, regen ain't so good on water, but I thought he was talking about using the motor being driven from the shaft of the ICE while under gas power as a generator to charge the battery. That would work if he configures an appropriate controller.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

That was the idea, but I already have a controller.. If only I could find a 72v alternator to put on the gas engine...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh, I thought he was doing an electric only as an outboard/trolling style motor along with keeping his normal engine in there. Would be nice if he could install it in an old outboard and have as a separate system.

If he wants to couple the DC motor to the original shaft/prop he will need a way to disengage the normal engine from being driven so the electric motor doesn't turn over the boat engine while the engine is off. Unfortunately, that removes the ability to spin the electric motor via the gas engine.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Borgli said:


> That was the idea, but I already have a controller.. If only I could find a 72v alternator to put on the gas engine...


*facepalm*

Thought you said you had the motor (EMC-RT200)?
Now you're saying you have a controller too?


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

The engine and motor will be connected to the same shaft. But there will be clutches on each of them, alt least the engine and some way of either having the motor turn the shaft but not be turned my it- think bicycle when you stop pedaling. 
If charging is possible ill have a switch/clutch to lock the motor to the shaft until the batteries are charged. 

If any of that made any sens?


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

How would you recommend charging the batteries at sea considering my controller won't allow charging using the motor? 
Can I have the alternator charging one of the 6 12volts so that i at least have a little backup?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

One option:
Get a normal 120VAC powered EV charger (72V) and hook it to your battery pack. Your boat has a 12V/24V system and an alternator on the gas engine to charge them. What I would do, is get an inverter that matches the power of the 72V charger and plug the charger into that. 

Another option:
It's not that the controller won't charge the batteries, because it can..... If you read what I said.... it's how you connect the electric motor to the driveline.. The problem is mechanically its complex. You need to have a way to disengage the Gas engine from the prop driveline so that the electric motor doesn't drive the gas engine. If you did engage some sort of a clutch, so that the electric motor turns when the gas engine is on, the regen will take care of charging the batteries. If you don't disengage the gas engine from the driveline, the electric motor will have to turn not only the prop driveline, but the entire engine too!


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

So basically when the motor is not running, but turning it will charge? 
Getting the system set up to turn both motor and engine or just engine or what not is not a problem. I am a lot better with those things than electronics. In addition my dad is a genius at these things. We have made something similar before but with a small motorcycle engine, which obviously didn't need charging.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

I found this on eBay, http://m.ebay.com/itm/251190358904?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1. 
It gives 72v, 5.8 amps and 417w @ 500 rpm. Would that be usable or would it fry the batteries if it got upto 1000rpm? 151v, 11 amps and 1691 w @ 1000 rpm

Also found 
http://m.ebay.com/itm/331030201016?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1
60v @ 3250rpm


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Is this the controller you have? http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_SPM.html

Here's how you wire the contactors: 










It does not appear it supports regeneration. Did you check the manual?


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Can not find anything about regen in the manual so I assume it doesn't support it. 
Do you think one of the pmas are usable? Probably the first one with 72v at 500 rpm.

Update: No regen now confirmed


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Can not find anything about regen in the manual so I assume it doesn't support it.
> Do you think one of the pmas are usable? Probably the first one with 72v at 500 rpm.


It would be simpler to use a wound field alternator with a regulator circuit. I don't know how you'd do that with a PM alternator. Maybe those wind turbine guys have a controller for it.

And to me, it seems silly to run an alternator at 500 RPM off an engine. I'd get the 12V unit and run at 3000 RPM 

You're jumpin' in with both feet. Have fun.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Ok, so the 12v alt will be able to charge the 6 batteries? Even though they are connected in a series.

While we are at it, it turns out that the batteries my dad had sitting in his garage were toast. How many ah should I aim for when getting new ones?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Borgli said:


> Ok, so the 12v alt will be able to charge the 6 batteries? Even though they are connected in a series.


That would be the idea, but check with the alternator guy. I don't know what his equipment is capable of. But the voltage should be proportional to RPM. 3000 RPM sounds like a reasonable speed to me, but he'll have to confirm the machine is capable. And you'll still need a voltage regulator.



Borgli said:


> While we are at it, it turns out that the batteries my dad had sitting in his garage were toast. How many ah should I aim for when getting new ones?





major said:


> And yes, it matters about the batteries. What is your mission? How fast? How far? Load capacity (volume and mass)? Budget?


Like I said before, depends on what you want.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

Ill do some alt research.

Just want something to bring me out of the harbor and work as emergency backup. I don't want to pay too much for batteries. What I can order from the us is limited because of the shipping due to wegiht. 
Also would like to get the pk 38 hp out of it.


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## Borgli (Oct 20, 2013)

I found some 115ah deep cycle batteries so I am going to skip on the alternatir for now and just have a 220v to 72v charger instead.

I'll let you know how it works out when we finish.


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