# Firefly Battery Prototypes Hit the Road



## EVDL Archive (Jul 26, 2007)

The first four Oasis batteries were installed on a Freightliner truck operated by G&D Integrated of Morton, Illinois.

More...


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

Good news.....
Now if they can just put out a 24 series battery for us to try....


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

What's different about the battery?


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

david85 said:


> What's different about the battery?


Not enough to really be worth the amount of attention they are getting from the EV crowd. If they ever perfect their FULL carbon foam technology, that's a different story.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> What's different about the battery?


Foam = greater surface area. Also resists having the pores getting "clogged" (a cause of early performance degradation).

First generation (this one) won't have much more total power than other AGM type batteries but should achieve more operating cycles before significant degradation; second generation (when they foam BOTH anode and cathode) suggests about 1.5+ times best storage of AGM and further increased discharge cycles before replacement.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds like a step forward, but in all honesty I have to wonder how much improvement they can really make on the lead acid battery. Could be good if the price is reasonable, but they have to realize that lithium batteries are not far from being able to replace lead acid for a similar net cost.

I think time is running out for lead batteries. Its still worth a try if the price is right.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

david85 said:


> Sounds like a step forward, but in all honesty I have to wonder how much improvement they can really make on the lead acid battery. Could be good if the price is reasonable, but they have to realize that lithium batteries are not far from being able to replace lead acid for a similar net cost.
> 
> I think time is running out for lead batteries. Its still worth a try if the price is right.


Yeah, I think you're right. 2nd generation Firefly would actually meet my personal tipping point for building an EV; unfortunately, I suspect that by the time they are available they will have been eclipsed by something like EEStor or nanowire batteries or carbon nanotube capacitors.


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## engineer_Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

Any improvement is good. The problem with exotic technologies is, where are they? It's easy to talk about eestor, etc.., but where can I buy one? Lead is here now. When the new Li-cells come out they can use this breakthrough to further enhance their gains. Meanwhile I'm using a lead pack, and when these batteries are released to the public 1.5 times my current range along with a longer life sounds good. I just hope they dont cost as much as Lithium.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

engineer_Bill said:


> Lead is here now.


If that's the logic, then Firefly's full-carbon-foam technology batteries should be available anywhere lead is sold by now. The industry has had 100 years to improve the lead acid battery and there is actual a similar carbon foam idea that came about in the 1960s that also disappeared. So they aren't living up to their hype as far as being able to quickly piggyback on top of existing infrastructure. Either they have incompetent R&D or what they are trying to do is a lot harder than it sounds (which will likely translate into lithium pricepoints if they pull it off). The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and doesn't bode well for them.


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## vrod (Jan 4, 2008)

I believe they'll be better than current available batteries and cost shouldn't be as crazy as lithium.I work for a truck manufacturer and when we start installing alot of them I'll be able to get them at cost.I'll let you know hopefully in a couple of months.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Yeah, I think you're right. 2nd generation Firefly would actually meet my personal tipping point for building an EV; unfortunately, I suspect that by the time they are available they will have been eclipsed by something like EEStor or nanowire batteries or carbon nanotube capacitors.


Carbon nanotube capacitors are at least 15 years out... I have good reason to believe this is the case (they can't grow nanotubes past 3 cm in diameter, and even then... costly as hell)
Pressed fullrenes sounds possible, but at least 20 years out for that, nobody is researching it that I know of...

EEStor is a scam... I've posted my reasons for knowing this in previous threads.

What would be GREAT is a diamond capacitor... but debeers won't let that happen either.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2009)

saab96 said:


> If that's the logic, then Firefly's full-carbon-foam technology batteries should be available anywhere lead is sold by now.


Actually advancements in lead has come a long way in the past 100 years but most was done long ago. The improvements from the 60's could have squashed by Big Oil like NiMH batteries. Not hard to swallow that concept any longer is it!

Bet if it is real good then they will have big oil calling soon. No doubt. Hope not. I could use a good quality lead battery with lots of power and life. 




> The industry has had 100 years to improve the lead acid battery and there is actual a similar carbon foam idea that came about in the 1960s that also disappeared.





> So they aren't living up to their hype as far as being able to quickly piggyback on top of existing infrastructure. Either they have incompetent R&D or what they are trying to do is a lot harder than it sounds (which will likely translate into lithium pricepoints if they pull it off). The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and doesn't bode well for them.


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## Technologic (Jul 20, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Actually advancements in lead has come a long way in the past 100 years but most was done long ago. The improvements from the 60's could have squashed by Big Oil like NiMH batteries. Not hard to swallow that concept any longer is it!


Meh not everything in a conspiracy... in this case, battery tech is likely being held back both by special interest groups and by general stupidity of scientists...

I say this, realizing that many scientists aren't capable of thinking outside of the box about much.

Technology doesn't always advance as quickly as you'd think it should... and people don't seem to be too put off by the slow progress, and loss of genius.


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## voxelman (Jun 1, 2008)

Those that wish to be more informed about the Firefly Energy Oasis Battery technology should read the following papers on their site:

http://tinyurl.com/9lqwpv

http://tinyurl.com/58bset

I own a Zap Zebra PK and intend to upgrade to the Oasis Group 31 batteries as soon as they are available. I expect to see the following advantages from doing so:

1) Longer Life (possibly as much as 5X cycles)
2) Greater Range (more usable capacity)
3) Reduced Voltage drop on hills
4) Reduced weight (Possibly as much as 40% less)
5) Improved cold weather performance
6) Reduced charging time

The reasons for these expectations are all provided in the above noted links.

Introducing a new technology to an industry that is as basic as lead acid batteries is not easy. For one the existing manufacturing infrastructure is old and paid for. Also this technology will reduce the demand for product increasing the time for pay back on new plant and equipment. Almost all new battery business infrastructure has been built in China in the past few years for the same reasons that almost all new industrial infrastucture has been built in China: lower labor costs and the worlds largest potential market.

Kindest regards,

Murray


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## Jason Lattimer (Dec 27, 2008)

Doesn't look like too much more of an improvement over AGM. When it is available it will be prohibitively expensive for EV use. Might as well spend a little more and go with NIMH or Lithium.

Carbon nanotubes will change more than just battery design. It will revolutionize everything. It will have to wait a while though.

O.K. I just read the pdf files of the Firefly battery. 1000 cycles life and still 80 or 100 percent!!!! That is great, but at $400 a battery, they had better be about 400AH.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

Technologic said:


> Carbon nanotube capacitors are at least 15 years out... I have good reason to believe this is the case (they can't grow nanotubes past 3 cm in diameter, and even then... costly as hell)
> Pressed fullrenes sounds possible, but at least 20 years out for that, nobody is researching it that I know of...


Suggest you read, "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzweil. As an analogy, the Human Genome project was scheduled to complete in 15 years, and after 7.5 years was only 1% complete and pundits were saying it was a failure. It completed early. Same factors will drive these technologies to the market sooner than you think.



> EEStor is a scam... I've posted my reasons for knowing this in previous threads.


I'm not putting bets either way. They aren't public, so at least they won't out-scam Madoff.



> What would be GREAT is a diamond capacitor... but debeers won't let that happen either.


They can't stop it - it is just carbon, and plenty of non Deboers labs create artificial diamonds today (just can't do it cheaper than digging them out of the ground). If they are possible, someone will do it.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

My guess is Firefly will in time price to be competitive with regular lead acid battery *performance*. For example, if they charge triple, then the battery will last 3x as long. Otherwise, truckers will just put in twice as many of the regular batteries.

Something very tantalizing is they listed the battery internal resistance as 0.8 milliohms! At first blush I'd take that as a misprint, maybe it was supposed to be 8 milliohms -- but they do argue less resistance. I have been meaning to contact them and ask.

I'm a bit surprised at some of the negativity expressed here -- Firefly is a subsidiary of Caterpillar, which has among the best reputations in the world. The technology is evolutionary, not revolutionary. They are actually delivering a product! It is also way awesome they are aiming at the bottom end, the cheap lead acid battery market.

I agree with the earlier comments that the current battery has just one foam electrode -- the future, promised both + and - foam electrode battery is supposed to be the light, powerful, long lived miracle battery.


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> Suggest you read, "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzweil.


Some technologies are more amenable to improvement than others. Too often Moore's law has been extrapolated to mean progress across all technology when that is not possible otherwise we'd have bases on the moon and Mars and be flying around in Back to the Future hovercars by now.

Here is a theory on the opposite side of the spectrum.


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

saab96 said:


> Some technologies are more amenable to improvement than others. Too often Moore's law has been extrapolated to mean progress across all technology when that is not possible otherwise we'd have bases on the moon and Mars and be flying around in Back to the Future hovercars by now.
> 
> Here is a theory on the opposite side of the spectrum.


I think your theory depends on the disappearance of intelligent life on the planet. While it is already vanishingly scarce, I suspect that a few really smart ones will figure out a way to survive...


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## saab96 (Mar 19, 2008)

PhantomPholly said:


> I think your theory depends on the disappearance of intelligent life on the planet.


No, it doesn't. A caveman is still "intelligent". But a lack of access to energy kind of limits what they can do.


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## voxelman (Jun 1, 2008)

saab96 said:


> No, it doesn't. A caveman is still "intelligent". But a lack of access to energy kind of limits what they can do.


The world is not lacking in energy resources. It is only lacking a sufficient utilization of the energy that is available. I think we will continue to find that necessity is the mother of invention.


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