# Direct drive/clutchless adapter failures



## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

I am planning on a clutchless direct connect adapter between the transmission and a WarP9 motor. I already have the adapter made but would like to get some information. How many of you that have a direct/clutchless coupling have had problems? I have only noticed one individual on this forum that has had issues. Are there others?

I realize keeping the clutch is the safest way but I just can't get over being able to get rid of that much rotating mass. 

Thanks in advance.

Brian


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I have had no problems with the clutchless coupling used in my buggy. It even survived a failed on controller event unharmed. Mine was built for minimal rotating mass using a Ruland shaft coupler. The spline insert for the input shaft was machined from a VW Bus input to mainshaft coupler.

Some clutchless adapters have caused problems for RWD manual transmissions if they fail to locate the input shaft. The input shaft on most standard transmissions have only one bearing supporting the input shaft and rely on the pilot bushing to stabilize the other end and keep the shaft level.


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## Coley (Jul 26, 2007)

I have probably the simplest coupler going and it just 15 miles away from 10,000 miles of NO problems.

Not direct drive and if you ever drove one,you would want a transmission.


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## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

*Re: Direct coupling/clutchless adapter failures*

Thanks for the replies.

Coley, I should have titled this "Direct coupling/clutchless adapter failures". Most definitely need and going to have a transmission. 

Brian


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## RKM (Jun 9, 2008)

Brian,

My Warp 9 is coupled directly to the tranny input shaft. Have only been driving it a few months, but have over 2200 miles on it. So far, so good.

I'd read posts about problems or delays in shifting without the clutch and had thought I'd end up regretting my decision. In my case at least, shifting without the clutch could not be easier.

No regrets at all.

Rob


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I had a direct clutchless setup for a while too and while it wasn't really a problem to drive, there are some disadvantages.

Upshifting worked very, very well for me thanks to some minimal amount of regen that my BLDC motor has with the throttle released. Brushed motors without regen will take longer to shift from what I understand because they will freewheel for longer.

Downshifting takes a little more coordination. Coming to a complete stop should in theory allow you to find 1st gear but I found in my case it doesn't always work and it can be a bit if a nuisance to try and get the car in gear while others are waiting behind you. The problem is however worse for me becuase my motor drive is underpowered compared to a warp 9 motor and I do prefer to use 1st gear off every start. If my motor had enough power/torque to adequately pull away in 2nd gear, then it probably wouldn't have mattered as much.

The difficulty in floating gears made it a little harder for anyone other than myself to learn how to drive the car and even I was grinding gears on occasion. It really doesn't take all that much before filings ended up in the fluid in my case.

I just finished adding the flywheel and clutch back to the car and am about to start putting everything back together. It also adds a little bit of extra safety net in case of an unlikely runaway event because now I can simply press the clutch and decouple power from the wheels. For that matter, anyone can. With no clutch, you may not be able to pull the transmission out of gear when the the transmission is under load.

Over all clutchless shifting did work quite well for me and I could go up through the gears almost as quickly as moving the shifter from one position to the next, but downshifting required a lot more planning ahead in traffic. I wanted my car to be fairly easy to drive by people other than myself if I ever wanted to show it off. Eventually I realized that having to float gears probably wasn't going to win many people over in that respect.

I'll see what its like with the clutch back in the car again once everything is back together. Sure hope I don't regret going through this trouble


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## E4mula (Mar 31, 2009)

david85 said:


> Upshifting worked very, very well for me thanks to some minimal amount of regen that my BLDC motor has with the throttle released. Brushed motors without regen will take longer to shift from what I understand because they will freewheel for longer.
> 
> Downshifting takes a little more coordination. Coming to a complete stop should in theory allow you to find 1st gear but I found in my case it doesn't always work and it can be a bit if a nuisance to try and get the car in gear while others are waiting behind you.


If you're using a clutchless system, you want no regen. Chances are the little amount of regen you were getting from the BLDC motor was causing your shifting problems.
When you release the throttle, with zero regen, the synchros will match the motor to the drive speed. If you have regen, the synchros have to fight to bring the motor to the proper speed. If you have regen on a clutchless system, you'll need to get really good at RPM matching which isn't easy when the motor is quiet.


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## drdonh (Aug 8, 2008)

I've been using an aluminum (to reduce rotating mass) Lovejoy coupler, and have done about 3000 miles without any problems, until recently. The problem was probably more my fault, the coupler got loose on the motor shaft, and the because diameter of the coupler just happened to be slightly larger than the opening in the motor faceplate, the coupler jammed. THe attached pictures may explain this better.

The problem is fixed now with a sleeve to keep the coupler from moving backward, should it get loose again.

Other than that, no problems.

Don
ev-a40.blogspot.com


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

E4mula said:


> If you're using a clutchless system, you want no regen. Chances are the little amount of regen you were getting from the BLDC motor was causing your shifting problems.
> When you release the throttle, with zero regen, the synchros will match the motor to the drive speed. If you have regen, the synchros have to fight to bring the motor to the proper speed. If you have regen on a clutchless system, you'll need to get really good at RPM matching which isn't easy when the motor is quiet.


You do make a good point there since my motor will not freewheel as easy as a series wound motor.


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## O'Zeeke (Mar 9, 2008)

BHall said:


> I am planning on a clutchless direct connect adapter between the transmission and a WarP9 motor. I already have the adapter made but would like to get some information. How many of you that have a direct/clutchless coupling have had problems? I have only noticed one individual on this forum that has had issues. Are there others?
> 
> I realize keeping the clutch is the safest way but I just can't get over being able to get rid of that much rotating mass.
> 
> ...


I've had no problems going clutchless, about 3000 miles since removing the clutch trying to reduce energy loss to rotating mass (no regen). Here is the math done when I was using lead, now probably less since switching to lifep04.
I'm no mathematician but I did some calculations of the rotational energy used to get the 33kg, .35m dia. flywheel/clutch assembly spinning to 4000 rpm. [wiki=673]Formulas[/wiki] from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy

K(rotational) = 1/2 x (k) x mass(kg) x radius2 x angular velocity(rad/sec)

K = 46274 Joules 

My 20 mile commute involves an average of 22 stop lights requiring 22 x 46274 = 1,018,028 Joules or 0.283 KWh. 

Charging uses 10.5 KWh (525Wh/mile) so about 2.7 percent of the total charge was used just to get the mass of the flywheel/clutch spinning so for my Mustang this translates into about 0.6 miles for a 20 mile trip (maybe a little more because of the 78 less pounds to haul around). Not a huge increase but in a heavy car I'll take all I can get and its free.


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## BHall (Aug 1, 2007)

Again thanks to you all for the replies, and keep them coming. 

O'Zeeke, thanks for the calculations that is great info!

Brian


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2010)

I am running clutchless. My first coupler was a love joy type but the rubber inserts mashed out and tore up very fast. Second I turned plates to sandwich the Fiat clutch disk and that worked well for a bout a year before the very fine spines on the disk tore out so I put a new disk in and ran well another year and hub center of the plate broke lose and the spines were looking worn so I turned a one piece sleeve with keyways to match the motor shaft and the one I cut into the input shaft on the trans. That was over six years and 30,000 miles ago. It is still running strong. It has developed a little back lash on the input shaft but so far nothing I can’t live with.


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

One more vote for no regrets on going clutchless....


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