# 20-30kw PMAC Controller?



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CKidder said:


> Does anyone know of a controller that can output about 20 to 30kw and run a permanent magnet three phase AC motor? To make matters worse, the motor is wound for 240V AC so it still needs a battery input of something like 340v. It seems that this is a very awkward configuration. The combination of high voltage, low power, and non-traditional commutation seems like a tough one.
> 
> Does something like this even exist? If so I'd love to hear where I could find something like this.


Hi CK,

Sure, it exists. Can you go with an industrial drive? Check out Yaskawa U1000 model. Should be other brands also. You can connect battery to the DC link on industrial VFDs intended for the mains. May also need to switch to some DC coil contactors and fans.

For the mobile market, I am pretty sure UQM made/makes a product of that size. They may not be happy to sell inverter only. Should be others out there. 

major


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

CKidder said:


> Does anyone know of a controller that can output about 20 to 30kw and run a permanent magnet three phase AC motor? To make matters worse, the motor is wound for 240V AC so it still needs a battery input of something like 340v. It seems that this is a very awkward configuration. The combination of high voltage, low power, and non-traditional commutation seems like a tough one.
> 
> Does something like this even exist? If so I'd love to hear where I could find something like this.


You had me until the voltage- a Sevcon size 4 would otherwise be perfect. Of course a Rinehart pm100dx would work, but you would spend a couple thousand extra dollars for unused power.

I'm not aware of an automotive controller at that power and voltage. You might have to build one. Or fix Jack's broken Rinehart.


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

major said:


> Hi CK,
> 
> Sure, it exists. Can you go with an industrial drive? Check out Yaskawa U1000 model. Should be other brands also. You can connect battery to the DC link on industrial VFDs intended for the mains. May also need to switch to some DC coil contactors and fans.
> 
> ...


That's actually been attempted. An industrial drive works but gets very confused by the concept of regen apparently and this messes things up. I can look into UQM to see if such a drive exists. Maybe they'd sell to me since I can prove I'm not some novice know nothing user. I did crack their encryption after all. So far as I know they don't care about that but it might prove I have some idea of what I'm doing.


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## TooQik (May 4, 2013)

Not sure if they handle PMAC or not, but the TI-4520 might be worth asking some questions about:

http://www.hec-drives.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=3


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

CKidder said:


> That's actually been attempted. An industrial drive works but gets very confused by the concept of regen apparently and this messes things up. I can look into UQM to see if such a drive exists. Maybe they'd sell to me since I can prove I'm not some novice know nothing user. I did crack their encryption after all. So far as I know they don't care about that but it might prove I have some idea of what I'm doing.


If the drive uses scalar control only, regen won't work and low speed performance will be bad. But if it has vector control, it will work. It is possible to find industrial drives with a vector control option. Eric Tischer on here found one way back in the day. His efforts at adapting it to suit his needs won him a job at Tesla. A bigger issue might be that induction machines are far more common industrially than PMAC motors. So an industrial drive might not have the software to run a PMAC (the algorithms are similar but not identical). Finally, finding an industrial drive at the correct power level might be tricky. When a drive is designed for stationary purposes, they often don't try to make them very compact. So you might have to swap out your own power stage in a lower power one, like Eric did. But really the power stage of an inverter isn't really that complicated.

If you went the UQM route, you would need the inverter portion of the Powerphase Select 50. But I have a feeling that even if you could convince them to sell you one, their onesies prices would be more than a Rinehart PM100dx. Probably would be heavier and larger too so.....
If you did get one, you would need access to the tuning software, which they might not want to give you. And even if they did, tuning the motor isn't trivial, especially if you don't know all of the physical parameters of the motor.


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

PMAC motor, so you mean a Brushless motor with magnets on the rotor driven by a sinusoidal wave input?

Sevcon Gen 4 Size 8. http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen-4-size-8.aspx

or maybe the german unitek

http://www.unitek-online.de/en/produkte/batterie/bamocar_d3.html

Ill have alook if i can find a few others.


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Does the motor have any feedback or commutation sensors, e.g. tachometer, hall sensors, resolver, or encoder?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CKidder said:


> That's actually been attempted. An industrial drive works but gets very confused by the concept of regen apparently and this messes things up.


Hi CK,

No, not true if you use a quality flux vector drive; industrial inverters support regeneration into battery very well. I've put hundreds into the field and a few on race tracks. These were all using ACIM, but I've seen it done with PM. The U1000 brochure claimed operation support for PM. 

Good luck,

major


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## CKidder (Dec 12, 2009)

major said:


> Hi CK,
> 
> No, not true if you use a quality flux vector drive; industrial inverters support regeneration into battery very well. I've put hundreds into the field and a few on race tracks. These were all using ACIM, but I've seen it done with PM. The U1000 brochure claimed operation support for PM.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll investigate that route. Part of the trouble is that I've never seen this car at all and I'm going by what other people are telling me. I'm just looking for controllers because the people working on it have had trouble and so I'm taking what they said and trying to find some options. I really don't know that much about the motor except that it is PMAC. It sounds as if it is wound to use sine wave three phase in a synchronous configuration. So, essentially kind of like a synchronous version of an ACIM motor. The control scheme would be similar but not identical to ACIM. All I know is that the industrial drive they used was not up to the task. It is entirely possible that they were not using a vector unit. I'll try to find out more of the story.


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