# DBM Kolibri - not so good?



## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

Looks to me like its for solar applications and not automotive.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

onegreenev said:


> Looks to me like its for solar applications and not automotive.



then why do this?

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/a-375-mile-battery-range-too-good-to-be-true/


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

To show off the energy capabilities. They did not do this to show the POWER capabilities. Heck, you COULD use them in a car too. I never said it could not be done that way. Heck, my early old Hi-Power Cells are more Energy Cells than Power Cells. They are great at low C Discharge rates. I have pulled 7C from them and 6C easy but they are rated for 3C burst rate and 1C continuous. So I suppose these cells may be just like that. More for Energy than Power but you could still use them. 

Put enough cells in any car and you can attain those distances. The larger the kWh your pack is the better. Are these Energy Dense? That could equate a high AH rate for the size. That way you can stuff in a large kWh pack without sacrificing room in the vehicle.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

The new CA Calb cells are a mix, High energy and Hi power in a tighter package. Good for me. Good for you. Good for all. A123 are high power.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

What other high energy cells are out there?
Preferably LiFePO4.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

It looks like everything on that page if for grid storage type applications. I bet those current limitations are the power output of the power electronics in the pack, not the cells themselves. If I remember correctly the cells themselves are actually capable of extremely high discharge/recharge rates.

This is all speculation though.



Yep Google translate if your friend. These are grid and home energy storage units that have all of the electronics for charge/discharge at the 230v 50hz European standard. In such a case the output is determined by the power electronics in the unit and has little to do with what the actual output capabilities of the batteries themselves are, whatever that actually is.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You might want to check this thread:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/626-km-one-charge-51274.html


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

Yep, they were touting very high C rates for these cells. IIRC, they claimed a car sized pack could be recharged in 5 minutes, if you had a charger capable of it.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi All,

I sent an email to DBM asking to 'trial' their cells and got the following response:



> Many thanks for your inquiry.
> 
> Unfortunately, we have to inform you that –in spite of the flexible versatility of the kolibri high-performance storage- we decided to focus on production and distribution of stationary storage systems. Therefor we kindly ask for your understanding.
> 
> ...


I'm going to try and find out why this is as it seems as though the market is screaming for some 400WH/KG cells!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seriously, stationary storage doesn't need the energy density that mobile applications do. Something is very odd here.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Seriously, stationary storage doesn't need the energy density that mobile applications do. Something is very odd here.


I wonder what it would take, money/time, to get on of the smaller units and rip it apart to get at the cells.


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## WarpedOne (Jun 26, 2009)

> I'm going to try and find out why this is as it seems as though the market is screaming for some 400WH/KG cells!


My bet is these are not 400Wh/kg but 400W/kg ...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

It does seem that way.

Another theory I have heard (cant remember where) is that this technology does in fact have excellent energy density but terrible power density (low c rates)


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

Just figured I'd post the english language version of their site.

http://www.kolibri-ag.com/en/home1.html

I was looking at the big block and it looks like it's rated for 4C.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> Just figured I'd post the english language version of their site.
> 
> http://www.kolibri-ag.com/en/home1.html
> 
> I was looking at the big block and it looks like it's rated for 4C.


But don't forget that it is effectively a dc battery with an inverter to give 240VAC. So the limiter here is most likely the inverter...


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

skooler said:


> But don't forget that it is effectively a dc battery with an inverter to give 240VAC. So the limiter here is most likely the inverter...


True, but until there are official published specs on the cells and some independent testing it's the only official number available at the moment. Even if it was only 4C, if they are as cheap and light as they claim, that would be plenty. It looks like 12v and 24v output are listed as options though. I'm curious what exactly that means. Could you buy a bunch of the smaller 12v or 24v packs and string them up in series? Are there hardware current limits on that output, a built in charger, etc or does that option give you a direct connection to the cells. Lots of questions and limited available information.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm guessing by the time we get any details on these the 400 wh/kg Envia cells will be on the market.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Isn't the cycle life on envia a bit naff when compared to LiFePO4?

I seem to remember reading they lose 10% capacity every 500 cycles?


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

skooler said:


> Isn't the cycle life on envia a bit naff when compared to LiFePO4?
> 
> I seem to remember reading they lose 10% capacity every 500 cycles?


With their current samples, yes. IIRC, they don't intend to put them into production until they get over 1,000 cycles for that loss. Thats why they aren't being sold yet.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

WarpedOne said:


> My bet is these are not 400Wh/kg but 400W/kg ...


I think they are around 320 Wh/kg.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

rochesterricer said:


> With their current samples, yes. IIRC, they don't intend to put them into production until they get over 1,000 cycles for that loss. Thats why they aren't being sold yet.


I was under the impression that Envia batteries weren't even being mass produced yet.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

jeremyjs said:


> I was under the impression that Envia batteries weren't even being mass produced yet.


That is correct, I wasn't implying they were in production.


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