# [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

when i was a young un and drove a VW bug in the winter
i had the same problem. my fix was to sew up a small
bag and filled it with rock salt. wipe the windshield and
it would keep it clear for quite a while

Louis in central BC
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
.


>I have a Gizmo (see tag line) and I periodically need to defrost the
> windshield. Since I live in the rainy Pacific Northwest I frequently
>.>

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello David,

I use a in cab heater that is 640 watts 120 vac on the driver side, which is 
mounted back under the dash. You can get these heaters from a auto parts 
store.

Here in Montana, I only had to use one 640 watt heater. Never use the 840 
watt on the passenger side and the 1000 watt hot water heater core so far. 
The winters here had been warmer or above 0 F. for the last 15 years.

At first, I just install this unit connecting to a 20 amp fusetron or you 
can use a 20 amp circuit breaker. This is tap off my main AC input plug. 
Leave the heater control on, and I just turn on a 20 amp 120 VAC toggle 
switch to turn it on about 30 minutes before I leave. It gets the cab up to 
80 F. and warms the seat up too.

If I am only driving 5 miles, this will keep all the glass defrosted. 
Latter, I added a alternator-inverter which is ran off the pilot shaft of 
the motor which provides 145 amps at 13.5 to 16 volts and at the same time 
can provide 3 kw at 120 VAC 60 HZ at the same time or up to 7 kw if the 12 
volt is kept low.

I run all my heaters, fans, pumps, accessory motors all rated at 120 volts 
60 hz. Do not have to get something special or modified any of these units 
to run off the pack voltage.

I only have to use the on board system after I have been park outside a 
while and I found I can defrost the windshield in less than a 5 minutes and 
never need it again for the next 5 miles.

You could also use a DC-DC converter that is rated at a minimum of 55 amp at 
14.5 VDC to run a small .75 to 1 kw inverter to run just the heater. I use 
a on dash double pole double throw three position 120 volt 20 amp rocker 
switch to either turn on the heater using the on board inverter or switch to 
the outboard AC power while it is park and plug in.

The advantage with the rotary inverter-alternator, is that when I am going 
down long steep hills, the main battery amps is at 0 amps and the motor 
inertia is generating the 12 and 120 volt power, which also provides a 
regenerative breaking.

I also use another on dash selector switch with can either select the the 
main motor to drive the inverter-alternator while going down hill or any 
time I lift up on the accelerator. Press the accelerator it than disconnect 
the motor drive to this unit.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo


> I have a Gizmo (see tag line) and I periodically need to defrost the
> windshield. Since I live in the rainy Pacific Northwest I frequently
> have condensation on the inside and dew on the outside of my
> windshield. Right now I have a muffin fan/computer fan blowing up
> against the center of the windshield. You can see the fan grill in
> this photo: http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?6920 . I have a narrow
> space below the fan where I would like to install some sort of heating
> element. Since the DC-DC is maxed out with other loads I am thinking I
> would like to hook something to the pack directly. Right now I have a
> 48V set of floodies but will be going to Lithiums soon. I need a
> heating element that will handle upto 70V or so. Since the Gizmo does
> not have a sealed cabin I'm not interested in heating it. I'm just
> interested in raising the temperature of the air a little so that it
> will clear the windshield without having to wipe it. Generally, once
> the windshield is clear it stays clear if either the fan is running
> and/or I'm driving. I presume an increase of 10 degrees or so would be
> enough to clear the window if it isn't freezing outside.
>
> I have a couple of ideas I want some input on. Since I don't want to
> melt the existing plastic fan I need a low power solution. I took
> apart a 12V auto defroster which runs off the cigarette lighter. I
> think it is only a 150W unit. It has three approximately 1.5cm square
> heating elements sandwiched between a couple of metal plates to which
> the wiring is attached. I was wondering a couple of things. First,
> what happens to the current and temperatur if I run the units at a
> voltage lower than rated. Second, if I were to separate the three
> elements and wire them in series would I essentially make a 36V unit
> out of it? If things wouldn't get too hot I figure I could wire 6 of
> the elements in series and have a unit which wouldn't put out too much
> heat and would handle a wide range of pack voltage. Furthermore, it
> would be thin enough to fit in the space I have available.
>
> Thank you for any thoughts.
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roland,

I really like the idea of using the alternator off the pilot shaft to
provide regenerative braking and power for climate control accessories
without using pack voltage.

I'm curious how you switch that alternator drive in and out when you let off
and push down on the accelerator. Could you go into more detail on that?
Are you doing that manually with the switch, or is there some automatic
sensing going on?

It sounds like a great idea that I'd like to incorporate into my EV when I
finally get that far.

Thanks,

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo

Hello David,

I use a in cab heater that is 640 watts 120 vac on the driver side, which is

mounted back under the dash. You can get these heaters from a auto parts 
store.

Here in Montana, I only had to use one 640 watt heater. Never use the 840 
watt on the passenger side and the 1000 watt hot water heater core so far. 
The winters here had been warmer or above 0 F. for the last 15 years.

At first, I just install this unit connecting to a 20 amp fusetron or you 
can use a 20 amp circuit breaker. This is tap off my main AC input plug. 
Leave the heater control on, and I just turn on a 20 amp 120 VAC toggle 
switch to turn it on about 30 minutes before I leave. It gets the cab up to

80 F. and warms the seat up too.

If I am only driving 5 miles, this will keep all the glass defrosted. 
Latter, I added a alternator-inverter which is ran off the pilot shaft of 
the motor which provides 145 amps at 13.5 to 16 volts and at the same time 
can provide 3 kw at 120 VAC 60 HZ at the same time or up to 7 kw if the 12 
volt is kept low.

I run all my heaters, fans, pumps, accessory motors all rated at 120 volts 
60 hz. Do not have to get something special or modified any of these units 
to run off the pack voltage.

I only have to use the on board system after I have been park outside a 
while and I found I can defrost the windshield in less than a 5 minutes and 
never need it again for the next 5 miles.

You could also use a DC-DC converter that is rated at a minimum of 55 amp at

14.5 VDC to run a small .75 to 1 kw inverter to run just the heater. I use 
a on dash double pole double throw three position 120 volt 20 amp rocker 
switch to either turn on the heater using the on board inverter or switch to

the outboard AC power while it is park and plug in.

The advantage with the rotary inverter-alternator, is that when I am going 
down long steep hills, the main battery amps is at 0 amps and the motor 
inertia is generating the 12 and 120 volt power, which also provides a 
regenerative breaking.

I also use another on dash selector switch with can either select the the 
main motor to drive the inverter-alternator while going down hill or any 
time I lift up on the accelerator. Press the accelerator it than disconnect

the motor drive to this unit.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo


> I have a Gizmo (see tag line) and I periodically need to defrost the
> windshield. Since I live in the rainy Pacific Northwest I frequently
> have condensation on the inside and dew on the outside of my
> windshield. Right now I have a muffin fan/computer fan blowing up
> against the center of the windshield. You can see the fan grill in
> this photo: http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?6920 . I have a narrow
> space below the fan where I would like to install some sort of heating
> element. Since the DC-DC is maxed out with other loads I am thinking I
> would like to hook something to the pack directly. Right now I have a
> 48V set of floodies but will be going to Lithiums soon. I need a
> heating element that will handle upto 70V or so. Since the Gizmo does
> not have a sealed cabin I'm not interested in heating it. I'm just
> interested in raising the temperature of the air a little so that it
> will clear the windshield without having to wipe it. Generally, once
> the windshield is clear it stays clear if either the fan is running
> and/or I'm driving. I presume an increase of 10 degrees or so would be
> enough to clear the window if it isn't freezing outside.
>
> I have a couple of ideas I want some input on. Since I don't want to
> melt the existing plastic fan I need a low power solution. I took
> apart a 12V auto defroster which runs off the cigarette lighter. I
> think it is only a 150W unit. It has three approximately 1.5cm square
> heating elements sandwiched between a couple of metal plates to which
> the wiring is attached. I was wondering a couple of things. First,
> what happens to the current and temperatur if I run the units at a
> voltage lower than rated. Second, if I were to separate the three
> elements and wire them in series would I essentially make a 36V unit
> out of it? If things wouldn't get too hot I figure I could wire 6 of
> the elements in series and have a unit which wouldn't put out too much
> heat and would handle a wide range of pack voltage. Furthermore, it
> would be thin enough to fit in the space I have available.
>
> Thank you for any thoughts.
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I was a pup, just about every discount store's auto department sold 
"infrared windshield defrosters." They were bar-shaped, maybe a foot and a 
half or a couple of feet long. They stuck on the inside of your windshield 
with suction cups, and usually plugged into the cigar lighter receptacle. 

They worked, after a fashion. Some of the original Citicars came with these 
as factory defrosters!

I haven't seen one offered for many years, but they might be worth looking 
for or even making. I've often thought that something similar ought to work 
for a small EV. In fact it might be ideal for your situation, since you 
want to warm the windshield itself, not the air in the vehicle. And yes, 
I'd guess that in most cases 3 of them in series would work fine on a 36v 
battery.

FYI, if you halve the voltage applied to the heater, its output falls to one-
quarter (that is, wattage varies as the square of the voltage).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snip]
> >I've often thought that something similar ought to work
> > for a small EV. In fact it might be ideal for your situation, since you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Mike,

There are two ways to do shut down the alternator or any other power 
sourced. If you have a three wire alternator which are normally the older 
style which use a control lead from the ignition switch, you just insert a 
manual switch or a relay control from a micro switch on the accelerator 
lever to open this alternator circuit.

When this circuit is open, the alternator will not generate any power thus 
no load. The same with the Air Conditional, just cut the power to the 
clutch circuit on the AC.

During this time the alternator is off the line, a large deep cycle 12 volt 
battery is providing the electric power steering and controller.

The second way, is to have the pilot shaft of the motor disconnect from the 
alternator by the use of a shaft clutch. These are inline type of coupler 
shafts made by Dodge Power Transmission at a cost of about $1600.00. I did 
not have the room to install this type of clutch coupler, so I install a 
double cog industrial belt from a double pulley on the main motor that 
connected to pulley on a electric clutch that is normally use for a A/C 
unit.

To mount this A/C clutch, you need a very sturdy support to hold two face 
bearing plates that supports the clutch drive shaft. I use a large aluminum 
plate that is 1/2 inch thick that not only supports this clutch unit, but 
also the inverter-alternator, the A/C unit, the Vacuum pump, vacuum 
canister, the hot water heater pump, and two accessory drive motors.

This accessory mount is pattern off a GMC diesel mount which is bolted to 
the front of the engines. It has all the adjusting mechanisms for these 
units and idling pulleys. This unit is place about 12 inches in front of 
the main motor and has it own mounting to four engine type donuts that are 
place on two cross members bolted to the frame rails.

Now if I need additional power while the main motor is disengaged, I can 
turn on a switch to turn on a electric motor to drive any one of these units 
by use of the common belt drive. I been thinking of using four paddle 
switches on the steering column made by TCI.COM that are normally use for 
shifting a transmission to control this function.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Nickerson" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo


> Hi Roland,
>
> I really like the idea of using the alternator off the pilot shaft to
> provide regenerative braking and power for climate control accessories
> without using pack voltage.
>
> I'm curious how you switch that alternator drive in and out when you let 
> off
> and push down on the accelerator. Could you go into more detail on that?
> Are you doing that manually with the switch, or is there some automatic
> sensing going on?
>
> It sounds like a great idea that I'd like to incorporate into my EV when I
> finally get that far.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
> Behalf
> Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:41 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo
>
> Hello David,
>
> I use a in cab heater that is 640 watts 120 vac on the driver side, which 
> is
>
> mounted back under the dash. You can get these heaters from a auto parts
> store.
>
> Here in Montana, I only had to use one 640 watt heater. Never use the 840
> watt on the passenger side and the 1000 watt hot water heater core so far.
> The winters here had been warmer or above 0 F. for the last 15 years.
>
> At first, I just install this unit connecting to a 20 amp fusetron or you
> can use a 20 amp circuit breaker. This is tap off my main AC input plug.
> Leave the heater control on, and I just turn on a 20 amp 120 VAC toggle
> switch to turn it on about 30 minutes before I leave. It gets the cab up 
> to
>
> 80 F. and warms the seat up too.
>
> If I am only driving 5 miles, this will keep all the glass defrosted.
> Latter, I added a alternator-inverter which is ran off the pilot shaft of
> the motor which provides 145 amps at 13.5 to 16 volts and at the same time
> can provide 3 kw at 120 VAC 60 HZ at the same time or up to 7 kw if the 12
> volt is kept low.
>
> I run all my heaters, fans, pumps, accessory motors all rated at 120 volts
> 60 hz. Do not have to get something special or modified any of these 
> units
> to run off the pack voltage.
>
> I only have to use the on board system after I have been park outside a
> while and I found I can defrost the windshield in less than a 5 minutes 
> and
> never need it again for the next 5 miles.
>
> You could also use a DC-DC converter that is rated at a minimum of 55 amp 
> at
>
> 14.5 VDC to run a small .75 to 1 kw inverter to run just the heater. I 
> use
> a on dash double pole double throw three position 120 volt 20 amp rocker
> switch to either turn on the heater using the on board inverter or switch 
> to
>
> the outboard AC power while it is park and plug in.
>
> The advantage with the rotary inverter-alternator, is that when I am going
> down long steep hills, the main battery amps is at 0 amps and the motor
> inertia is generating the 12 and 120 volt power, which also provides a
> regenerative breaking.
>
> I also use another on dash selector switch with can either select the the
> main motor to drive the inverter-alternator while going down hill or any
> time I lift up on the accelerator. Press the accelerator it than 
> disconnect
>
> the motor drive to this unit.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:56 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo
>
>
> > I have a Gizmo (see tag line) and I periodically need to defrost the
> > windshield. Since I live in the rainy Pacific Northwest I frequently
> > have condensation on the inside and dew on the outside of my
> > windshield. Right now I have a muffin fan/computer fan blowing up
> > against the center of the windshield. You can see the fan grill in
> > this photo: http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?6920 . I have a narrow
> > space below the fan where I would like to install some sort of heating
> > element. Since the DC-DC is maxed out with other loads I am thinking I
> > would like to hook something to the pack directly. Right now I have a
> > 48V set of floodies but will be going to Lithiums soon. I need a
> > heating element that will handle upto 70V or so. Since the Gizmo does
> > not have a sealed cabin I'm not interested in heating it. I'm just
> > interested in raising the temperature of the air a little so that it
> > will clear the windshield without having to wipe it. Generally, once
> > the windshield is clear it stays clear if either the fan is running
> > and/or I'm driving. I presume an increase of 10 degrees or so would be
> > enough to clear the window if it isn't freezing outside.
> >
> > I have a couple of ideas I want some input on. Since I don't want to
> > melt the existing plastic fan I need a low power solution. I took
> > apart a 12V auto defroster which runs off the cigarette lighter. I
> > think it is only a 150W unit. It has three approximately 1.5cm square
> > heating elements sandwiched between a couple of metal plates to which
> > the wiring is attached. I was wondering a couple of things. First,
> > what happens to the current and temperatur if I run the units at a
> > voltage lower than rated. Second, if I were to separate the three
> > elements and wire them in series would I essentially make a 36V unit
> > out of it? If things wouldn't get too hot I figure I could wire 6 of
> > the elements in series and have a unit which wouldn't put out too much
> > heat and would handle a wide range of pack voltage. Furthermore, it
> > would be thin enough to fit in the space I have available.
> >
> > Thank you for any thoughts.
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> 

_______________________________________________
General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:20 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or perhaps a water heater element - they burn out at 240V when not immersed; 
but has anyone tried them at 36V?

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Miles" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Warm air defrost for a Gizmo


>


> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:20 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Gizmo has a lot of "flow through" ventilation. It's going to take 
many watts of heat to warm up that windshield, since almost all the heat 
will be lost to the rapidly circulating surrounding air.

What about adding a second thin plastic inner windshield? Space it an 
inch or so away from the existing one. Use something like a hair dryer 
to produce hot air to blow into the space between the inner and outer 
windshields. This will confine the heat to exactly where you need it. 
Rewire the nichrome element in the hair dryer to suit your pack voltage.

-- 
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377	| There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net	| That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I thought I'd wire the heating element separately from the fan. I need
the heat when the Gizmo has been parked outside for a while and
condensation has built up. Right now I turn on the fan as soon as I
get in and let it run a while. Sometimes it takes a long while. I'd
like to use warmer air than ambient while I'm stopped. Once I start
moving I rarely use the fan because of all the "flow through"
ventilation.

As for rewiring a hair dryer nichrome element for pack voltage do I
just measure along the wire until I reach the resistance I want for
the voltage I have? If I wire it for 65V I should be ok with just
about any voltage I may have in my pack. A lower voltage means less
heat. Is it W=3Di^2R? I should just look it up.



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The Gizmo has a lot of "flow through" ventilation. It's going to take
> > many watts of heat to warm up that windshield, since almost all the heat
> > will be lost to the rapidly circulating surrounding air.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Nelson wrote:
> > I thought I'd wire the heating element separately from the fan. I need
> > the heat when the Gizmo has been parked outside for a while and
> > condensation has built up.
> ...


----------

