# Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > So you look at the data, and you realize the need to go 100 miles at a
> > time is a made-up number: for 80% of the people it is unnecessary on an
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 / gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

I like windmills -- I tilt at them often ;-)

They're not as few and far between as you might imagine. 

Go to any local university with a fun, cool-looking EV that parks and
charges for free (while car parking is upwards of $500 a year or more)
and see how many young people get it... and they've yet to buy their
first car... then tell them that they can build their own EV for under
$1000 and it requires neither a license, nor insurance and goes wherever
a bicycle goes and cuts through congestion and parks wherever a bicycle
does for free. It's called an eBike. Once they start paying for gas
themselves just to get around town on their limited budget, they DO get
it. Once you get them on an eBike, it's hard to get the smile off their
face!

I came to realize very quickly that you've got to be picky about where
you spend your effort, and attempting to convince people with closed
minds isn't worth the effort. So I go to where they're open already --
schools. With young people in them. Who see a weird vehicle and think
"cool!" not "weird". I've had frat boys, sorority girls, construction
workers and rap-star wannabes all give me thumbs up and shout-outs while
twiking around town.

Sometimes the generation gap is a GOOD thing. And they can retrain
their parents when they start bitching about the price of gas -- I don't
have to change their mind.

The secret ingredient for the early adopter market is you don't want
your EV to look like a normal car.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dave Hymers
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

>
> If they think they need 200 miles of range and room for 7 passengers,
> you're
> not going to change their minds.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
>
They're not going to care or understand before gas reaches $4-5 /
gallon.
Only afterwards
Depressing reality. People who care and get it are few and far between.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> >  * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out
> > there RIGHT NOW than
> > there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level 1 charging
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Besides the Smart car, what current production car only weighs around
2,000 lbs?
Even the new minis weigh over 2,700 lbs.

Totally agree with you about the silliness of using 1.5 to 3 tons of
vehicle to move 200 lbs of payload.
Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
vehicle.

> * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or more
> pounds. 2000 to deliver 200. Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
> numbers only a rocket scientist could approve of!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a lightweight
> > vehicle.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

This makes me want to point out that there are probably no production cars
that one can buy in the USA that are as light as 2000 pounds. Most cars
weigh a good deal more ( pickups and SUVs are in the 5000 to 8000 pound
range ).



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Not everything power is bad.
Power windows typically are lighter than hand-crancked ones for the
crank and mechanism is replaced by a small button, small electric motor
with gear and a steel wire in shaft which weigh less and use
not as much space as the hand-crank.
That was the reason that even some dedicated-designed EVs where ONLY
efficiency and thus weight were considered, still used power windows.

The only way to make windows lighter is to give them a pivot or hinge so
you can open them without need to lower them into the door. I have not
seen those features on any modern car either.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 5:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range



> On 23 Sep 2010 at 16:58, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
> > lightweight vehicle.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

My force uses about 1ah a mile at 45mph stop and go. I have 48 life cells at
100ah so thats only 16KW (if I go to 100 DOD) and should do 100MI. Most I
have done is 68 miles with mostly highway 55mph speeds and I used 66Ah I
drive in normal mode not range extender mode. That car is 13 years old
(older tech but it is an AC motor) now but with new batteries. But, its
2000lbs I wasnt using ac/heat only the radio and two passengers. I dont have
power stearing etc as well and michigan is very flat. But, I can see 27kw
doing 100miles at 45 for a larger car with more electronics. Lets say 21.6kw
to 80% thats about 215wh per mile. Thats about 40% more than the force I see
it working fine (100 miles) unless they limit to 50% soc or something. I
have never gone past 70% dod on the pack and my commute is 55 miles round
trip to work. Range just isnt an issue for me. Parts heh thats another
matter. 
kevin
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/leaf-tp2552025p2553414.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> >> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
> >> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
> >> 1 charging station is more commonly known as a standard 3-prong
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> > I came to realize very quickly that you've got to be picky about where
> > you spend your effort, and attempting to convince people with closed
> > minds isn't worth the effort. So I go to where they're open already --
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > It's hard to
> > imagine a simpler and lighter system.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

> What current production car weighs around 2,000 lbs?

Dunno, giving them the benefit of the doubt maybe? I don't do cars ;-)
A Mazada Miata is a little over 2,000 pounds (2,174) but it's a
two-seater. So I guess it would be better to say 1.5 - 4 tons. Wow.
Thanks for the "fact" check. 

> Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
lightweight vehicle.

Not at all. You just gotta get your brain out of the 4-wheel steel box!

Drop to three wheels, and you're legally a motorcycle (in some states
such as Maine, an autocycle). Doesn't mean it has to look anything like
a trike motorcycle though, and all that required safety equipment and
crash testing goes away. It's legal and yet it doesn't mean that it's
not safe: safest motorcycle on the road if it has seat belts ;-) And
nothing happens if you lose your balance. If you're among the 50%
driving 25 miles a day or less, it's much more likely to be 35, not 65
mph.

There's some really interesting cutting edge work being done
electrifying recumbent trikes
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/shumaker/e-typhoon/default.htm These
things are bicycles in name only, in fact I'm pretty sure that they
break most eBike laws (they go over 20mph. Waaaaaay over).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Besides the Smart car, what current production car only weighs around
2,000 lbs?
Even the new minis weigh over 2,700 lbs.

Totally agree with you about the silliness of using 1.5 to 3 tons of
vehicle to move 200 lbs of payload.
Unfortunately with all the "safety" laws, it's hard to make a
lightweight
vehicle.

> * The average vehicle in America seats 5 and weighs 2,000 or
more
> pounds. 2000 to deliver 200. Those are payload-to-delivery vehicle
> numbers only a rocket scientist could approve of!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Childress, Matthew wrote:
> >>> * There are more Level 1 EV Charging stations installed out there
> >>> RIGHT NOW than there are gas stations (or even Starbucks). A Level
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> On 24 Sep 2010 at 10:39, David Dymaxion wrote:
> 
> > Another way to save that [window regulator] weight is to use a strap to
> > put the window up, or if you gut the doors just reach in to move it.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Hi,
Heck I have seen numbers estimating the numbers of class I charging
outlets as high as 9,000 per gas station, But that includes ones inside
houses so I only include it to get your attention. Here in Florida, my 15
year old home has 3 outside outlets... (For X-mas lights?)
The house I built in 1985 had 10 outside outlets, all 20 A 120 V. AC, all
GFCI protected on separate circuits. I really like the SPA disconnect with
GFCI and rain repellent box I displayed on this list for $125 last month.
And I am putting 16 of them into my school shop.



> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > Childress, Matthew wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

> But... not too different. Human nature is funny that way. Make a few 
> select changes, and it's cool. Make too many changes, and it's a
monster!

Heh, a well-heeded warning. One should always keep Bjork's swan outfit
and Lady Gaga's meat dress in the back of one's mind when designing
different.

[email protected]

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Right you are, Lee,
My big plastic complaint lately has been the frosted "LEXAN" used for
headlamp lenses. I personally wish I could find a simple housing for the
larger (6001?) Sealed Beam all Glass headlamps, they stayed clear. What I
find on glider candidates now are so frosted that it I have to pay to
re-polish every one on any vehicle over 6 years old. an extra $50 I would
prefer a permanent solution.
Oh I use hot water to de-ice my windows, but over the years two cracked if
the water was hotter than 70 d. F.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM* (Adviser) *EVTI-EVA Education Chapter*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 9/24/2010 2:01 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > > I remember seeing a mid-1960s piece in one of the pop magazines - Popul=
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Outlets on the outsides of buildings? Here in the Bay Area, my 
experience being Marin County in particular, there are virtually no 
outlets. You may well find one here and there, but in general, forget 
it. They aren't usually readily accessible, those that are there. 
Let's see, Safeway in Corte Madera - they have one or two 120V outlets 
on the front of the building, across the walk from the front parking 
spaces. So at minimum, to run a cord across that heavily-used walkway, 
you'd have to tape the cord down with a cord protector, assuming you 
ever got permission (LOL there). Here at the apt. complex, my building 
has no outlets on the outside, nothing, nada (I had to pay for the 
installation of my outlet in the ceiling of my carport under the 
building). I've had contractors looking for a source of electricity two 
or three times plug into my ceiling outlet when the lockbox has been 
open with the cord for the EV plugged in. They never asked. I've moved 
them up to my deck outlet on the one or two occasions they needed to use 
electricity. Over in the security bldg, there are some 120V outlets in 
the carports under the building - I've never seen them used, although 
they are live as far as I know (I plugged in my 12V charger to start my 
mother's dead Saturn starter battery one time).

Chuck

Dennis Miles wrote:
> Hi,
> Heck I have seen numbers estimating the numbers of class I charging
> outlets as high as 9,000 per gas station, But that includes ones inside
> houses so I only include it to get your attention. Here in Florida, my 15
> year old home has 3 outside outlets... (For X-mas lights?)
> The house I built in 1985 had 10 outside outlets, all 20 A 120 V. AC, all
> GFCI protected on separate circuits. I really like the SPA disconnect with
> GFCI and rain repellent box I displayed on this list for $125 last month.
> And I am putting 16 of them into my school shop.
> 
>


> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

The majority of street lights have an access panel at the bottom that is
just the right size for a 3-prong outlet. Some of the street lights
actually have a three-prong outlet on 'em, as do parking lot lights...

A small enough EV (eBike, electrified motorcycle, etc) is usually ok
pulling up onto the sidewalk, say at the Safeway (we were able to run
our EV's onto the National Mall and at the White House, so if we can
"Get away with that" post 9/11, then that should give you some
perspective of what you can do if you're nice and ask and chat someone
up...)


http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric-vehicles/5006737132/in/set-7215762
4992666870/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric-vehicles/5006738502/in/set-7215762
4992666870/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric-vehicles/5006739062/in/set-7215762
4992666870/#/photos/electric-vehicles/5006739062/



Vending machines are good indications of power... they conveniently glow
at night.

In my neighborhood, almost all the annoying front-yard lights (including
my own, which I leave burnt out as long as possible until the wife gets
annoyed) have outlets on 'em.

And yes, you can plug into it anytime... will probably hang an EV
charging station sign on it sometime soon...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 4:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range

Outlets on the outsides of buildings? Here in the Bay Area, my 
experience being Marin County in particular, there are virtually no 
outlets. You may well find one here and there, but in general, forget 
it. They aren't usually readily accessible, those that are there. 
Let's see, Safeway in Corte Madera - they have one or two 120V outlets 
on the front of the building, across the walk from the front parking 
spaces. So at minimum, to run a cord across that heavily-used walkway, 
you'd have to tape the cord down with a cord protector, assuming you 
ever got permission (LOL there). Here at the apt. complex, my building 
has no outlets on the outside, nothing, nada (I had to pay for the 
installation of my outlet in the ceiling of my carport under the 
building). I've had contractors looking for a source of electricity two

or three times plug into my ceiling outlet when the lockbox has been 
open with the cord for the EV plugged in. They never asked. I've moved

them up to my deck outlet on the one or two occasions they needed to use

electricity. Over in the security bldg, there are some 120V outlets in 
the carports under the building - I've never seen them used, although 
they are live as far as I know (I plugged in my 12V charger to start my 
mother's dead Saturn starter battery one time).

Chuck

Dennis Miles wrote:
> Hi,
> Heck I have seen numbers estimating the numbers of class I charging
> outlets as high as 9,000 per gas station, But that includes ones
inside
> houses so I only include it to get your attention. Here in Florida, my
15
> year old home has 3 outside outlets... (For X-mas lights?)
> The house I built in 1985 had 10 outside outlets, all 20 A 120 V. AC,
all
> GFCI protected on separate circuits. I really like the SPA disconnect
with
> GFCI and rain repellent box I displayed on this list for $125 last
month.
> And I am putting 16 of them into my school shop.
> 
>


> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> Childress, Matthew wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*

Does anyone carry one of those Edison screw to regular outlet converters ?

If you're really stuck and spot somewhere with an exposed light fixture ....
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] leaf, 100 mile range*



> Matthew wrote:
> 
> > The majority of street lights have an access panel at the bottom that is
> > just the right size for a 3-prong outlet.
> ...


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