# Which Controller for ME1003



## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

Hi, I am new to the forums here. I have been doing research on how to build a 72V electric motorcycle, using the information here. I have used his data and have decided to use the ME1003 instead of the ME0709 and I am unsure of which motor controller I could use (with regen). This will be my first EV build. I have attached the data sheet (subject to change) that I have filled out the info in the Calculations, Battery Info (in bold), and Parts List tabs. All data and calculations are from Lennon Rodgers. I have just refilled some of the values with my own, for my build and requirements.

All info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Animag

The Alltrax SPM 72400 or AXE 7245 will be perfect for your application. 300A controller can work but can supply lower power.

Be carefull with your battery choice. The Optima 34R are not deep cycle battery, only for Engine Starting Battery.
And with a weight of over 220 lbs and a ''real'' capacity around 25Ah, you should look for 24S (76.8v) of 40Ah lithium cell instead (75 lbs).


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Alltrax AXE and SPM don't offer regen AFAIK...... but regen is marginal on a motorcycle anyway, might be better to spend time and money on batteries to get longer range to begin with. If you have to have regen, you pretty much have to go Kelly at that point for PMDC with regenerative braking. 

Using Yabert's calcs above (which seem accurate based on my experience) at 25Ah and 72V, that's roughly 15-20 miles range, tops. You aren't using the 1Hour rating of your batteries, you're using the 20-hour rate (and I can't find a 1 hour rate for them). The quicker you discharge, the less energy total you get out. It makes a huge difference if you're discharging in 30 minutes, or 5 hours.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

So it seems that I have made a large error in my choice of batteries. I did not notice that the batteries I chose were not deep cycle and also read the wrong rating for them (WOW big mess up)... I will be going for the AXE 7245 controller due to the fact that it is cheaper. I have found one available for $500. I would like to keep this build around or possibly under $3,000, shooting for 55mph cruising speed and 40mi range. I will need to find better batteries but for a low price (no more than $160 each). If I could get lithium for that price, with 40ah+ I would jump on it in a heart beat, but that is very unlikely. Also if there is a way that I could get a cheaper controller (without regen) to afford higher quality batteries for the extra range instead of regen. That would be a great alternative as well. Any sugguestions?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

You didn't read the wrong rating, you just didn't understand that lead batteries are usually rated by a C/20 (20 hour discharge) rate.

I've seen people use the D34 in motorcycles and other cars/trucks, so that might be a better option.

Take a look on Evalbum.com and see what others use.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't try to save few bucks by buying a cheap controller.

With 72v 55Ah lead acid battery pack (over 250 lbs ), you will stick with 15-20 miles range. To reach 40 miles with a motorcycle, I think you need lithium... and probably a 4.5 Kwh to 6 Kwh battery pack depending of speed.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

That's funny. I had originally started with the D34 Yellow Top, but the $200+ price tag was not very attractive. I would love to use lithium batteries but for now I dont have the budget for $500 for each battery. I am planning to upgrade to lithium when it's time to replace the batteries. Just like I do with my ICE, when something needs to be replaced; upgrade. I guess I will have to go with the D34 batteries for now and switch to a litium pack later, to stay within my budget. Looks like 15-20 miles will have to work. Hopefully the dustbin fairing and rear fairing I will be making will help to bump up my speed and range a bit more.

I have been using the info from this site for aerodynamic ideas.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Kraig is a great guy and that info on his site is very comprehensive.

when you say $500 for each battery of lithium, maybe you're confused.... lithium cells are ~3.2V each, and for 72V, there's 24 cells. Lets say you get 60Ah TS cells for $1.25/Ah, that's $75 each, $1800 total for 24 cells. That would get you 40-50 miles. With Lead Acid D34's @$200/each, that's $1200.... and they might last a couple years.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

Yes I was confused. I didn't realize the lithium batteries were not 12V (still so much to learn). I was looking at 12v like these, which are $500+ each. Could you post a link to the batteries that you're talking about olease? Also would I have to change the battery chargers I would use, for these batteries?

Thanks


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Welcome to the Lithium world!...

http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Batteries.html
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=28&vmcchk=1
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries.php

It's just few example.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

frodus said:


> Kraig is a great guy and that info on his site is very comprehensive.
> 
> when you say $500 for each battery of lithium, maybe you're confused.... lithium cells are ~3.2V each, and for 72V, there's 24 cells. Lets say you get 60Ah TS cells for $1.25/Ah, that's $75 each, $1800 total for 24 cells. That would get you 40-50 miles. With Lead Acid D34's @$200/each, that's $1200.... and they might last a couple years.


Thanks for the help. After looking at these it makes a lot more sense to go lithium because if I charge them 365 days a year at 70% DOD thats 8 years of battery life compared to lead acid batteries and saving a LOT of weight on top of it. I am a bit confused though. You said I would need 24 batteries to run 72V, but if they run 3.2V each then wouldnt I only need 22? Maybe my math is wrong? 72 / 3.2 = 22.5 (rounded down = 22 @ 70.4V). And would that change my Bus Voltage to 70.4V?



Yabert said:


> Welcome to the Lithium world!...
> 
> http://www.evolveelectrics.com/Batteries.html
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=28&vmcchk=1
> ...


Thank you very much for the info and links. Ok so after looking through the options I have decided on the Sinopoly 40Ah 3C rating, at $52 (when buying 13+) that's $1.30/Ah. I know they are 0.3lbs heavier than the others but they look a lot nicer than the others and it will only make 1/10 of a mile difference. The big question I have is with the LPH batteries will I need a special charger or could I connect these in series and just hook up a 72V charger to them?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Animag771 said:


> Thanks for the help. After looking at these it makes a lot more sense to go lithium because if I charge them 365 days a year at 70% DOD thats 8 years of battery life compared to lead acid batteries and saving a LOT of weight on top of it. I am a bit confused though. You said I would need 24 batteries to run 72V, but if they run 3.2V each then wouldnt I only need 22? Maybe my math is wrong? 72 / 3.2 = 22.5 (rounded down = 22)
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for the info and links. Ok so after looking through the options I have decided on the Sinopoly 40Ah 3C rating, at $52 (when buying 13+) that's $1.30/Ah. I know they are 0.3lbs heavier than the others but they look a lot nicer than the others and it will only make 1/10 of a mile difference. The big question I have is with the LPH batteries will I need a special charger or could I connect these in series and just hook up a 72V charger to them?


Your range at 40Ah and 72V will be ~30 niles or so.... if you get 60Ah cells, you jump to about 45 miles. If you do choose lower Ah cells, that also means less current. I think the CALB are a little more stout cells, so they may provide more current peak/continuous.... but I don't have that much experience with Sinopoly.... so anyone feel free to chime in.

As long as you get a lithium charger at 72V, you should be fine. They're basically the same charge voltages.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

I have contacted the maker of the batteries I will be getting and they say that the charger I have chosen and they say it will work fine. I have also switched to Winston 40ah cells because the discharge rate is the same but they can have 2,000 more drains, for only $2 more per cell. I'm sorry for getting so far off subject on this thread, but thank you both very much for all of your help.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Animag771 said:


> but they can have 2,000 more drains, for only $2 more per cell..


Theoretically from 90 000 miles to 150 000 miles with a motorcycle... pretty useless at my opinion!
Don't choose your cells from discharges cycle capacity, but by weight, by volume, by power capability and by price.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

Yabert said:


> Theoretically from 90 000 miles to 150 000 miles with a motorcycle... pretty useless at my opinion!
> Don't choose your cells from discharges cycle capacity, but by weight, by volume, by power capability and by price.


Links to each battery with specs. The Winston are 0.1lbs lighter with more cycle life, but $2 more each. Probably still going to stick with the Sinopoly. I have read some pretty good things about those cells. 
http://3xe-electric-cars.com/lithiu...n-battery-40ah-lifepo4-lithium-battery-detail (click the middle picture for specs)

http://evolveelectrics.com/Sinopoly_40Ah_Lithium_Battery.html


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Take a look at CALB cells, people generally like them and they're slightly higher power.

Since you're using 40Ah cells, higher continuous discharge is essential. On a motorcycle like yours. You want something that isn't going to sag under high loads.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

I fear that I still have a LOT to learn before jumping into this build. I have talked to Justin Dunn at evolvelectrics.com and he mentioned something about battery balancing. I looked up some information, which just gave me a headache trying to understand it all. I figured out that I need to have some sort of bms, and came upon MiniBMS which seemed to be pretty good and even better, it's cheap ($12). I figured out how it is supposed to be installed, but the info on the site is VERY limited and I dont know what else is required to get everything to function properly. It can't be as easy as just hooking a MiniBMS to each cell, can it? I see other things like MiniBMS Head End Board (which has no info on installation) and an SSR. Do I need these as well? Or a better question might just be where can I get the information about what all is required to run LPH batteries on an EV? So I don't have to keep sounding like a complete idiot by not knowing these things. I have tried the forums, but not much help. Maybe I'm not using the right keywords for the answers I need.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

A simple and effective BMS help a lot to take care of your cells. I use one (mini BMS) and I like it. But many other member here charge and discharge their cells without bms.
Short story, you take care of balancing and don't overdicharging your cell or a BMS take care of balancing and don't overdicharging your cell.

There are a lot of good info about mini bms here http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/pages/Product-Support.html


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Just don't rush it, that's all.

If you don't know about something, or can't figure it out readily, don't jump in head first..... your biggest investment (batteries) might suffer.


There's lots of documentation on the BMS and how to hook it up. If you can't figure it out, just post here, we'll help direct you.


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## Animag771 (Oct 23, 2012)

Thank you guys for being so patient with me. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I try to learn what I can. That website was very helpful and had all the information I needed on the MiniBMS. Now I understand it's purpose and by looking at the wiring diagrams, I see the purposes for the Control Board and the SSR. I will definitely be going with the distributed MiniBMS version. I have decided that increasing my budget will improve the quility of the bike dramatically. So I have increased my budget and upgraded the batteries to 60Ah for a range of 50.87 miles at 55mph (according to the spreadsheet). After improving aerodynamics (if I can get to my goal of .37 cd) I will be able to travel 69.13 miles. This is all theoretical so I don't think the numbers will be quite so high...

Updated data sheet


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