# [EVDL] Battery question



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi everyone.

I'm in the process of getting new batteries for my Solectria s10...

so far I've come up with three different options.... does anyone have 
an opinion as to which I should choose or if I should go elsewhere?

1. Universal, UB12350 (35Ah) @ $65
2. Deca, 8AU1 (32Ah) @ $60
3. Interstate, DCM0035 (35Ah) @$72

I currently have a 144volt system, with three banks of 12 batteries 
(Discover, unknown model number)

I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with the three types 
listed, (4 if you include Discover). I am not really interested in 
changing the configuration around so I am kinda limited as to the same 
type (physical size) of the battery and at this juncture, I would prefer 
keeping it the same so I only have to swap batteries.

If anyone has words of wisdom in this direction, I would truely 
appreciate it. Likewise, if anyone is near the Trenton, NJ area and 
wants to lend a helping hand, I would welcome the experience.. 

Thanks in advance...

Dave Banas



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is there a particular reason that you can't use one bank of higher
capacity batteries?
I'm assuming it's an issue with the battery boxes. If so, it might be
cheaper in the long run to redesign the boxes. Then again maybe not.

Universal has a reputation for not lasting very long, I believe they are a
cheap Chinese made battery.

> Hi everyone.
>
> I'm in the process of getting new batteries for my Solectria s10...
>
> so far I've come up with three different options.... does anyone have
> an opinion as to which I should choose or if I should go elsewhere?
>
> 1. Universal, UB12350 (35Ah) @ $65
> 2. Deca, 8AU1 (32Ah) @ $60
> 3. Interstate, DCM0035 (35Ah) @$72
>
> I currently have a 144volt system, with three banks of 12 batteries
> (Discover, unknown model number)
>
> I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with the three types
> listed, (4 if you include Discover). I am not really interested in
> changing the configuration around so I am kinda limited as to the same
> type (physical size) of the battery and at this juncture, I would prefer
> keeping it the same so I only have to swap batteries.
>
> If anyone has words of wisdom in this direction, I would truely
> appreciate it. Likewise, if anyone is near the Trenton, NJ area and
> wants to lend a helping hand, I would welcome the experience.. 
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> Dave Banas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVDave and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: EVdave <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Battery question
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:38:11 -0400

>Hi everyone.
>
>I'm in the process of getting new batteries for my
>Solectria s10...
>
>so far I've come up with three different options.... does
>anyone have an opinion as to which I should choose or if I
>should go elsewhere?
>
>1. Universal, UB12350 (35Ah) @ $65
>2. Deca, 8AU1 (32Ah) @ $60
>3. Interstate, DCM0035 (35Ah) @$72

If at all possible I'd switch to 12vdc/100-amphr
or larger single string or better go 6-8vdc GC battery pack,
all would cost you much less and most, more range. Any S10
should hold any of these packs. You would double your range+
at 1/2 the cost with 6vdc GC batts if your EV drive can push
the extra weight. And they will last longer too.

Jerry Dycus


>
>I currently have a 144volt system, with three banks of 12
>batteries (Discover, unknown model number)
>
>I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with the
>three types listed, (4 if you include Discover). I am not
>really interested in changing the configuration around so
>I am kinda limited as to the same type (physical size) of
>the battery and at this juncture, I would prefer keeping
>it the same so I only have to swap batteries.
>
>If anyone has words of wisdom in this direction, I would
>truely appreciate it. Likewise, if anyone is near the
>Trenton, NJ area and wants to lend a helping hand, I would
>welcome the experience.. 
>
>Thanks in advance...
>
>Dave Banas
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

well, my reasoning is that I don't have the experience in modifying the 
boxes.... hence the desire to just swap the batteries. I would be 
open to going from 3 strings of batteries to 2, (where one string is in 
the rear box and the second is split between the two) so long as they 
would still fit in the existing boxes.....

I definitely do not have the experience to know which would provide the 
greater range. actually, i was happy with the realistic 30 miles of 
range the discover (or is it discovery) batteries provided......

yes though, you are correct in your assumption, but the issue is more 
with my capabilities than anything else.... on a comfort scale of 1-10, 
im about a 9 in wiring stuff, but about a 2 in physical design.

db

also, while im at it..... does anyone know what drive belts are needed 
to replace the existing ones?





> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Is there a particular reason that you can't use one bank of higher
> > capacity batteries?
> > I'm assuming it's an issue with the battery boxes. If so, it might be
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evdave wrote:
> 
> > 1. Universal, UB12350 (35Ah) @ $65
> > 2. Deca, 8AU1 (32Ah) @ $60
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

so, you are saying, if i just put in one string of 12 volt batteries, 
(obviously 12 of them) i should be able to get a higher capacity of 
available amps? 

my concern is that I would have to stay within the same available box 
space . (obviously some would be in the front box and some in the rear 
box... not a problem for me) but my concern would be knowing what type 
of battery to choose. In the front box, im guessing i would only be 
able to have one layer of batteries, (currently they are stacked on top 
of each other, pyramid style)... in the rear box though, there is 
limited space top to bottom.... 7.5 inches as the existing batteries are 
only one layer deep....


db




> jerryd wrote:
> > Hi EVDave and All,
> >
> > ----- Original Message Follows -----
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

so, it seems as though the main suggestion from everyone is to switch to 
one string of larger batteries........ 

i have an EV101 question..... The triple string i was looking to put in 
would be of 35Ah batteries.... since there are three strings, would it 
be correct to say, i would have had 105Ah at my disposal? hence, in 
switching to a single string, i would want AT LEAST a battery with 105Ah 
available?????? anything less would be less range? 

Im guessing the next step is for me to open up the battery boxes and get 
exact measurements and start figuring what kind of room i really have to 
work with..... (when i find out, ill be sure to put that out there for 
everyone to look at, unless of course someone already knows????) Like 
i said though, i am worried about he available height in my rear 
box..... the existing batteries are about 7.5 inches high and there is 
a big piece of inch+ thick pink styrofoam on top (probably to protect 
the terminals) do you think the person who i purchased the vehicle 
from put the styrofoam in b/c he used smaller batteries than the vehicle 
originally came with?

to answer your question... i usually run the vehicle in economy mode 
which supposedly limits the draw to 100 amps.... actually, it goes to 
about 125 though.....
if i put it in power mode, it goes up to 250..

Thanks for suggesting some batteries to look into, I appreciate all the 
feedback ive gotten so far..... i probably sound like some idiot, but 
ill be the first to admit, i dont know a whole lot about these things 
and im trying to learn....

db




> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Evdave wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Universal has a reputation for not lasting very long, I believe they are a
> > cheap Chinese made battery.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

When I was searching for new batteries for my Robomow, I checked out a lot
of forums. Pretty much everyone that tried the Universal Batteries
commented that they didn't provide the same mowing time and died quickly.

I've seen them mentioned in a couple other places, probably dealing with
Amateur Radio, where they said similar things.

As for China, well you're right there, they certainly don't need any help
from me to Impugn their reputation. There own businessmen seem to be
doing a good job of that.



> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Universal has a reputation for not lasting very long, I believe they are
> >> a
> >> cheap Chinese made battery.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 3 Jun 2008 at 14:57, EVdave wrote:
> 
> > currently they are stacked on top of each other, pyramid style ...
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVDave and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: EVdave <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:57:36 -0400

Be aware kits are available for most S10 battery
boxes so just a bolt or weld on or drawings your welder
could make up reasonable. I expect kit sellers will sell
them separately.
If a small pack of 8 or 12vdc batts you could just
put them all in the bed for now.

>so, you are saying, if i just put in one string of 12 volt
>batteries, (obviously 12 of them)

Yes and because of 2/3rd's fewer failure
points, more reliable. Your charger may need to be adjusted.
What type, model is it? Using 145amphr+ ones your range
would go from 30 miles to 40+ miles probably, at 1/2 the
cost.

i should be able to get
>a higher capacity of available amps? 

EV ones up to 145amphrs are readily available and
higher ones in 12vdc. You'd need 15 8vdc batts.
If you are up north especially, you need to have
insulation when the temps get below 60F. Having all your
batts together, the same temp really helps them live longer,
stay better balanced. Your batts should come from the same
batch so they are matched as closely as possible. Matched
batts in age, temp, construction, built for EV use, are very
important for long life, thus low costs.
If your controller?, charger? allows switching
back to 120vdc with 20 6vdc GC batts would give you over 60
mile range+ and longer battery life, lowest battery costs.

Jerry Dycus
>
>my concern is that I would have to stay within the same
>available box space . (obviously some would be in the
>front box and some in the rear box... not a problem for
>me) but my concern would be knowing what type of battery
>to choose. In the front box, im guessing i would only be 
>able to have one layer of batteries, (currently they are
>stacked on top of each other, pyramid style)... in the
>rear box though, there is limited space top to bottom....
>7.5 inches as the existing batteries are only one layer
>deep....
>
>
>db
>
>


> >jerryd wrote:
> >> Hi EVDave and All,
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

My thought was the same as others, get larger capacity batteries. I have
seen a lot of 6V(and 12V) batteries that are long and skinny, they use
them on ICE forklifts, maybe they have a deep cycle in that style that
would take the place of 2 of your smaller batteries. What size are the
boxes?

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

First, and foremost.... I truely appreciate all the feedback I am 
getting in this endeavor. I loved the car when the batteries were good 
and I'm all for putting in the effort to get it up to par again....

This is where I am at, mentally i guess that is... as everyone seems to 
be on the same page with each other. Dave is correct in the description 
of my boxes..... i opened up the front one and measured the inside 
dimensions without taking into consideration the styrofoam insulation 
they placed in there.... MAX space available, (not including the second 
level Hat, if you will) is, 31.5x13.75x10.75 (LxWxH).... the back box, 
i did NOT open, but i did lift the bed and took multiple measurements of 
the outer box minus what i believe to be the thickness of the box.... 
and the rear box is 37.5x33.0x10.5 (LxWxH)... i have a call into my 
battery guy to see if he has anything i could use with a 10inch height 
restriction... (who BTW seems really interested in this and claims to 
have helped other EV's similarly) the limiting factor to me seems to be 
the height.... 

so, my next set of questions to anyone out there, are this..... Im 
interested in finding out exactly what is available in the rear box.... 
can i remove all the batteries in the rear box to get the measurements 
and NOT PUT THEM BACK IN? I would then be running off the front pack of 
batteries. (this is just for moving it in and out of the garage).... is 
this a safe thing to do? would everything be ok with the charger only 
charging 1 pack instead of three?

The charger i have is a Brusa.... i think an NLG 4? im not sure, but 
someone previous to me hand wrote with a sharpie, Hawker Gen.... i 
forgot to look at it this morning when i left.... i do remember someone 
telling me that it is the type of charger that should not be used with 
110 unless dire emergency as it will run the risk of premature failure.....

db






> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 3 Jun 2008 at 14:57, EVdave wrote:
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Evdave wrote:
> 
> > .. i opened up
> > the front one and measured the inside dimensions without
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

ok... once again. thanks soo much for the support.... 

i think what ive decided to do is go with the Deka's 8g31.... my guy 
offered a price of 200 each... as ive mentioned before, i shouldnt have 
much of a problem doing the rewiring however, is there anyone who could 
help me with the reprograming of the nlg4... (i found out its actually 
NLG412) I have the programs we need and a data cable to connect to 
it.... ive used the monlog before to monitor the charging status, but 
never the nlg program to modify the charger.

the battery store told me that the AGM charge at 14.4 while the Gel need 
14.1..... any suggestions? does anyone have the nlg program file for 
such a configuration? (i think i said that right)

db




> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Or, you could fit 4 DEKA 8G31 gels up front (2x2 array) and up to 12 more in the rear (5x2 + 1x2 lingthwise beside them). Again, you only need 12, so you could even put the entire pack in a single rear box (better from a thermal management perspective), if you don't need the battery weight up front.
> >
> > The Odyssey PC2150 is just under 9.5" H to the top of the terminals; the 8G31 is 9.75" H.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Dave and All,

You could use 12vdc gp31 flooded batts
like Trojans, US Batt or other EV battery and get 10-30%
more range at 1/2 the price! Get the one with the most
weight, thus lead in the gp31 size, 130 amphr I think is
available. Great learning batteries because you can screw up
charging them and just add water vs AGM's, Gel's many times
have problems if not charged correctly, well balanced. The
Hawker charge profile should work on the floodeds.
If you go gel, AGM, sealed, hook them all
in parallel and charge them up, float them together for a
couple days so they start out well balanced. Make sure they
were all made the same day, batch. Get post or flag
terminals, not bolts if possible.
Jerry Dycus

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: EVdave <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:44:01 -0400

>ok... once again. thanks soo much for the support.... 
>
>i think what ive decided to do is go with the Deka's
>8g31.... my guy offered a price of 200 each... as ive
>mentioned before, i shouldnt have much of a problem doing
>the rewiring however, is there anyone who could help me
>with the reprograming of the nlg4... (i found out its
>actually NLG412) I have the programs we need and a data
>cable to connect to it.... ive used the monlog before to
>monitor the charging status, but never the nlg program to
>modify the charger.
>
>the battery store told me that the AGM charge at 14.4 while
>the Gel need 14.1..... any suggestions? does anyone have
>the nlg program file for such a configuration? (i think i
>said that right)
>
>db
>
>


> >Roger Stockton wrote:
> >> Or, you could fit 4 DEKA 8G31 gels up front (2x2 array)
> >and up to 12 more in the rear (5x2 + 1x2 lingthwise beside
> >them). Again, you only need 12, so you could even put the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

id like to try the gel rather than the flooded but obviously with the 
correct charging cycles... doing the flooded would be cumbersome mostly 
because of access to the pack... solectria put a lid on the rear 
battery compartment then bolted two motor controllers to the lid....so 
access is a time consuming job. but thanks for the info regarding 
hooking them all up parallel to top them off.... i have a good 12v 
diehard charger 2/15/100amp that has settings for gel batteries, which i 
can hook up for a couple of days before i install them.... i just gotta 
get the right charging parameters for the brusa charger

db



> jerryd wrote:
> > Hi Dave and All,
> >
> > You could use 12vdc gp31 flooded batts
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

EVDave, I have a rack of Deka 8G31s in my wife's Xebra and another set in the Gizmo, both of which have the full complement of PakTrakr information and recording devices. I understand that 14.1 is supposed to be the top end voltage for charging these gels, but the PakTrakr and two different charger algorithms say otherwise, in a manner of speaking.

During the primary charge phase, the voltage does not go beyond 14.1, and is much lower most of the time. The Delta-Q in the Xebra has a more "stepped" approach to charging current, while the Zivan NG-1 in the Gizmo is a sloped current decrease. Either way, as the current drops, the voltage climbs. At the final segment of charge, some of the Dekas have gone well past 15 volts. I've been told that at the low current levels of these charger algorithms, it's not dangerous to the life of the battery.

The Delta-Q drops to slightly more than an amp near the end, while the Zivan tends to pulse between 3 amps and about an amp in one to two second intervals, prior to shutdown.

It's not an answer to most of your questions, but it might be useful information. Oh, yeah, you'll want to specify terminal type. Some are 3/8" threaded studs, and some are 3/8" and 5/16" threaded studs with automotive type bumps of lead on the same battery.

fred
daytona beach, fl
------------------------------

Original Message: 20
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:44:01 -0400
From: EVdave <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

ok... once again. thanks soo much for the support.... 

i think what ive decided to do is go with the Deka's 8g31.... my guy 
offered a price of 200 each... as ive mentioned before, i shouldnt have 
much of a problem doing the rewiring however, is there anyone who could 
help me with the reprograming of the nlg4... (i found out its actually 
NLG412) I have the programs we need and a data cable to connect to 
it.... ive used the monlog before to monitor the charging status, but 
never the nlg program to modify the charger.

the battery store told me that the AGM charge at 14.4 while the Gel need 
14.1..... any suggestions? does anyone have the nlg program file for 
such a configuration? (i think i said that right)

db

End of Original message
------------------------------



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 4 Jun 2008 at 14:44, EVdave wrote:
> 
> > the battery store told me that the AGM charge at 14.4 while the Gel need
> > 14.1..... any suggestions?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ok, this is good to know while i watch the charging rates after i get 
everything reprogrammed... especially for the float portion of the 
charging cycle.... thanks Fred

db




> fred wrote:
> > EVDave, I have a rack of Deka 8G31s in my wife's Xebra and another set in the Gizmo, both of which have the full complement of PakTrakr information and recording devices. I understand that 14.1 is supposed to be the top end voltage for charging these gels, but the PakTrakr and two different charger algorithms say otherwise, in a manner of speaking.
> >
> > During the primary charge phase, the voltage does not go beyond 14.1, and is much lower most of the time. The Delta-Q in the Xebra has a more "stepped" approach to charging current, while the Zivan NG-1 in the Gizmo is a sloped current decrease. Either way, as the current drops, the voltage climbs. At the final segment of charge, some of the Dekas have gone well past 15 volts. I've been told that at the low current levels of these charger algorithms, it's not dangerous to the life of the battery.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVdave wrote:
> > I'd like to try the gel rather than the flooded but obviously with the
> > correct charging cycles... doing the flooded would be cumbersome mostly because of access to the pack... solectria put a lid on the rear battery compartment then bolted two motor controllers to the lid... so access is a time consuming job.
> There are automatic watering systems for floodeds. The vent caps are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I haven't seen all of these battery watering systems yet, but the ones I
have seen stick up above the batteries a considerable distance. My be a
problem fitting them in.



> > EVdave wrote:
> >> I'd like to try the gel rather than the flooded but obviously with the
> >> correct charging cycles... doing the flooded would be cumbersome mostly
> >> because of access to the pack... solectria put a lid on the rear
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I wondering how much the US Battery watering systems shown at 
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_watering_home.html raises above the battery 
caps. If your box has a 12 inch inside height and some of the 6 and 8 volt 
batteries are 11-1/4 high, this system might just fit.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question


> I haven't seen all of these battery watering systems yet, but the ones I
> have seen stick up above the batteries a considerable distance. My be a
> problem fitting them in.
>


> > > EVdave wrote:
> > >> I'd like to try the gel rather than the flooded but obviously with the
> > >> correct charging cycles... doing the flooded would be cumbersome
> > >> mostly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For one thing: It's not new and it's not US Battery's system. As indicated,
it's the "Flow-rite" system that's been around for years.
The main thing: While it's convenient, the nom. $30/battery cost adds some
25% to many of the flooded options. So you have to really want that
convenience. It would be justified for EVs where battery boxes are pretty
hard to get to and where spilling any fluids carries a high cost.

The system ensures that each cell gets filled up to the right level, then a
valve or backflow preventer prevents further water from entering, bypassing
the water to the other cells in the string. It's a neat system---I just
don't get why it has to be so expensive, at approx $10/cell.

-MT

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:36 PM
To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question

I wondering how much the US Battery watering systems shown at 
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_watering_home.html raises above the battery 
caps. If your box has a 12 inch inside height and some of the 6 and 8 volt 
batteries are 11-1/4 high, this system might just fit.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question


> I haven't seen all of these battery watering systems yet, but the ones I
> have seen stick up above the batteries a considerable distance. My be a
> problem fitting them in.
>


> > > EVdave wrote:
> > >> I'd like to try the gel rather than the flooded but obviously with the
> > >> correct charging cycles... doing the flooded would be cumbersome
> > >> mostly
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

actually, i took out all the batteries this weekend..... (what a job in 
the heat).... i took better measurements and the 8G31's should fit 
fine.... 5x2 + 2x1.... i just have to watch the space at the front of 
the box....

ok, next question for anyone/everyone.... the original configuration of 
3 banks of 12 batteries had a fuse between batteries #6 and #7.... i 
think this was an 100 amp fuse..... do i now have to change it to a 300 
amp fuse?????

also... the main wires that go to the anderson connectors are 2 
gauge..... the jumper wires between each of the batteries were 4 
gauge.... do i have to change the jumper wires to 2 gauge???? or 
should the original 4 gauge wires be sufficient
that should give me plenty of extra room for the wiring that is in this 
set up....

according to the gauges, the vehicle normally runs at 100-125 amps 
because i keep it in economy mode, but i can run it up to just over 200 
amps..


db




> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I wondering how much the US Battery watering systems shown at
> > http://www.usbattery.com/usb_watering_home.html raises above the battery
> > caps. If your box has a 12 inch inside height and some of the 6 and 8 volt
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but 
are marked NIFE HFP 5. They are 5.375" by 1.75" by 7.75". They are flooded 
and there is some liquid still in them and there is a filler cap on top of 
each one.

Does anyone have any knowledge of what they might be? I have not tried to 
measure voltages or put any sort of a charge into them. I am wondering if 
they are really Nickel Cadmium or actually Nickel Iron and if would make any 
difference in preliminary testing methods that should be used.

I believe they were from some sort of standby generator starting use and 
they are connected in two banks of 48 and 42 cells. The 42 cell bank looks 
like the "other" 6 cells had been removed sometime in the past as the rack 
is sized the same as the 48 cell rack.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on which way to proceed with these.

respectfully,
John 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John
There was a thread started on July 14th that went way in depth on Nickel
Iron Batteries. In fact the topic was "[EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries". I
don't know if it will answer all of your questions but it is pretty
thorough. If I remember correctly a few people discussed NiCad's in there
to especially since they are similar to NiFe.
Good Luck
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:30 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: [EVDL] Battery question


I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but
are marked NIFE HFP 5. They are 5.375" by 1.75" by 7.75". They are flooded
and there is some liquid still in them and there is a filler cap on top of
each one.

Does anyone have any knowledge of what they might be? I have not tried to
measure voltages or put any sort of a charge into them. I am wondering if
they are really Nickel Cadmium or actually Nickel Iron and if would make any
difference in preliminary testing methods that should be used.

I believe they were from some sort of standby generator starting use and
they are connected in two banks of 48 and 42 cells. The 42 cell bank looks
like the "other" 6 cells had been removed sometime in the past as the rack
is sized the same as the 48 cell rack.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on which way to proceed with these.

respectfully,
John

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry, I had looked at an older archive and found nothing with the NIFE 
search. I now see that it didn't get any more recent than 2007. I have 
corrected my bookmark list.

respectfully,
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Miller" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question


> John
> There was a thread started on July 14th that went way in depth on Nickel
> Iron Batteries. In fact the topic was "[EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries". I
> don't know if it will answer all of your questions but it is pretty
> thorough. If I remember correctly a few people discussed NiCad's in there
> to especially since they are similar to NiFe.
> Good Luck
> Jeff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:30 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: [EVDL] Battery question
>
>
> I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but
> are marked NIFE HFP 5. They are 5.375" by 1.75" by 7.75". They are 
> flooded
> and there is some liquid still in them and there is a filler cap on top of
> each one.
>
> Does anyone have any knowledge of what they might be? I have not tried to
> measure voltages or put any sort of a charge into them. I am wondering if
> they are really Nickel Cadmium or actually Nickel Iron and if would make 
> any
> difference in preliminary testing methods that should be used.
>
> I believe they were from some sort of standby generator starting use and
> they are connected in two banks of 48 and 42 cells. The 42 cell bank 
> looks
> like the "other" 6 cells had been removed sometime in the past as the rack
> is sized the same as the 48 cell rack.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated on which way to proceed with these.
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have now read the entire thread from earlier this month and my original 
question still remains. How do I know if these are NiCad or NiFe and how 
much does it matter? The cells that I have are definitly not like the 
thread as they are listed as 6 volt units. I will try to get some pictures 
tomorrow and get them posted.

Any suggestions?

respectfully,
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Battery question


>I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but
> are marked NIFE HFP 5. They are 5.375" by 1.75" by 7.75". They are 
> flooded
> and there is some liquid still in them and there is a filler cap on top of
> each one.
>
> Does anyone have any knowledge of what they might be? I have not tried to
> measure voltages or put any sort of a charge into them. I am wondering if
> they are really Nickel Cadmium or actually Nickel Iron and if would make 
> any
> difference in preliminary testing methods that should be used.
>
> I believe they were from some sort of standby generator starting use and
> they are connected in two banks of 48 and 42 cells. The 42 cell bank 
> looks
> like the "other" 6 cells had been removed sometime in the past as the rack
> is sized the same as the 48 cell rack.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated on which way to proceed with these.
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Jul 2008 at 19:30, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but are
> > marked NIFE HFP 5.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I just today received 90 batteries (cells) that are purportedly NiCads but
> > are marked NIFE HFP 5. They are 5.375" by 1.75" by 7.75". They are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> [email protected] wrote:
> > How do I know if these are NiCad or NiFe and how much does it matter?
> 
> A flooded nicad will peak at about 1.6v/cell or so when fully charged
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Sorry, I had looked at an older archive and found nothing with the NIFE
> >search. I now see that it didn't get any more recent than 2007. I have
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am probably going to sound like an idiot asking this, but I am going to anyway....I understand series wiring + to - all the way through the pack and using + off of #1 battery and - off of #6 battery (72v). If I understand correctly to parallel another series string to this string one would connect + (string #2) to + on #1 battery (string #1) and - (string #2) to - (string #1) on #6 battery. This is fine if you had 6 more batteries. 

What if you had only three batteries? Wouldn't there be too much of a voltage drop connecting as fore mentioned?

What if the three batteries (parallel string) were wired just to the head battery #1 or last battery #6 in the string. Still paralled in, I mean + to + and - to -?

Would there be any benefit in doing this? I tried it with one battery and noticed no great difference in range.

Thank you,

Pete Cox

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you're going to parallel a battery pack, you have to have two packs
of the same voltage. If you have a 72V pack made of 6 12V batteries,
adding just a few in parallel with some of the batteries will not
help. There are still some of the original batteries in the 72V string
that have the same capacity they did before. They are the weak link.

Your pack capacity is only as large as the smallest battery in the
series string. If you had another 6 batteries and paralleled them with
your existing pack (either 2 parallel packs of 6 batteries or 6 series
packs of 2 batteries) then you would have more capacity. Anything less
would not help unless you can increase your voltage, but it sounds
like your controller is already maxed out.

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 30 Sep 2008 at 14:17, PETE COX wrote:
> 
> > What if you had only three batteries? Wouldn't there be too much of a voltage
> > drop connecting as fore mentioned?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you all for all the help.

Pete Cox
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery question



> On 30 Sep 2008 at 14:17, PETE COX wrote:
> 
> > What if you had only three batteries? Wouldn't there be too much of a voltage
> > drop connecting as fore mentioned?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It seems obvious that the best way to fix this with the controller and 
since you only have 6 batteries, is add 6 more batteries in parallel to 
the existing 6. Buddy pairs might be a good way
_______ _______ _______ _______ _______ 
_______
|--|- | |--|- | |--|- | |--|- | |--|- | 
|--|- | ______positive
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | 
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | 
| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| 
|_____+|--| 
| | | | | 
| |
| _______ | _______ | _______ | _______ | _______ | 
_______ | 
|--|- | |--|- | |--|- | |--|- | |--|- | 
|--|- | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | 
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | 
--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| |_____+|--| 
|_____+|--|

But I seem to remember Lee once mentioning how to use a curtis on a 
higher voltage pack, letting it vary the voltage from x to y instead of 
0 to y.

Lee ?






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