# [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

night and day.

You need more amps, and less noise get the Logi.

I used several of their controllers with no issues.

Mike Golub



> John Nln <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I may need a new controller (depending on repair estimates for mine).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm in the midst of making the same decision, except for a system that will
be somewhere between 96 and 120 volts. It is a new conversion. I'm
interested in the replies to your question. However, it looks like you have
already ruled out the Kelly controllers. Can I ask why? I know there have
been a lot of complaints about quality control in the past, but a lot of
people seem happy with them now. Personally, I can't stand the low speed
squeal of the Curtis controllers, so it appears that it will either be
LogiSystems or Kelly for me.

Thanks for sharing any of your acquired knowledge so far!

Tom





> John Nln wrote:
> >
> >
> > I may need a new controller (depending on repair estimates for mine).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have been running a Logisystems 120V 1000amp controller since last spring, minus the 3 months it was in for warranty repair this fall. I couldn't be happier with it. 

The upside is that Logisytems offers a lot more power than Curtis, and I'm willing to bet Kelly as well. 

The two downsides to Logisystems so far seem to be that many have complained about a startup lurch, which varies in severity. The other is that as of yet they are an unproven design. Mine ran for months perfectly, then died. When I sent it in for warranty repair I found myself in a fairly long line waiting on some design reengineering. They of course think it is all better now, but they thought that the first time around as well, so as far as I am concerned, the overall quality of the controllers are still unknown.

Having said that, if I were shopping for a controller for a project today, it would not even be a tough decision. I would definitely buy another Logisystems. Curtis is pretty much the "devil we know" and I still have a hard time believing that Kelly is not just cheap chinese junk... but I really have no evidence to form that opinion on while at the same time I am fully behind an American company that left my EV in the driveway for 3 months.

damon

> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:52:00 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis
> 
> 
> I'm in the midst of making the same decision, except for a system that will
> be somewhere between 96 and 120 volts. It is a new conversion. I'm
> interested in the replies to your question. However, it looks like you have
> already ruled out the Kelly controllers. Can I ask why? I know there have
> been a lot of complaints about quality control in the past, but a lot of
> people seem happy with them now. Personally, I can't stand the low speed
> squeal of the Curtis controllers, so it appears that it will either be
> LogiSystems or Kelly for me.
> 
> Thanks for sharing any of your acquired knowledge so far!
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 


> > John Nln wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I may need a new controller (depending on repair estimates for mine).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This is just me thinking out loud, but I wonder if they could make a 
modular controller, that was designed for parallel integration. Many 
of the larger industrial DC power supplies have current sharing 
capability. You can put a number of them in parallel to meet higher 
amp loads. Could a controller me made in say 500 A, 300 V modules, 
that are capable of being paralleled to meet up to 2000-3000 A.

It would be a nice feature to be able to get rolling with say 500 
Amps. Not satisfied, bump it up to 1000, or 1500...

Does anyone know of a reason why this can't be done?



> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> > I have been running a Logisystems 120V 1000amp controller since last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

One of our own is headed this direction. I'm not sure if he is still on th=
is list, but he does participate in the Nedra Yahoo group. Here is a link =
showing what he has in mind. Just what you were thinking. 500 amp modules=
that can be paralleled.

http://www.hotjuiceelectric.com/motorjuicer.html

damon

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:30:10 -0500
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis
> =

> This is just me thinking out loud, but I wonder if they could make a =

> modular controller, that was designed for parallel integration. Many =

> of the larger industrial DC power supplies have current sharing =

> capability. You can put a number of them in parallel to meet higher =

> amp loads. Could a controller me made in say 500 A, 300 V modules, =

> that are capable of being paralleled to meet up to 2000-3000 A.
> =

> It would be a nice feature to be able to get rolling with say 500 =

> Amps. Not satisfied, bump it up to 1000, or 1500...
> =

> Does anyone know of a reason why this can't be done?


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I guess their right that there's no such thing as an original =

thought. I think he's on the right track.



> damon henry wrote:
> 
> >
> > One of our own is headed this direction. I'm not sure if he is =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Steve West wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 27/02/2009, at 10:23 AM, Grant Stockly wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>A controller is only a constant current power supply when feeding a
>significant inductance. A naive paralleling of controllers would most
>likely result in beating of the two switching frequencies, causing
>erratic behavior / loop instability, or if the top half of the bridge
>is actively switched much worse behavior like shoot-through followed
>by violent destruction. To avoid these problems the controllers would
>need to be designed to work in parallel (ie synchronized switching),
>or have sizable inductors on each controller's output.

Why would it matter if the switching frequencies were beating? The 
controllers are open loop except with respect to their own current 
limit, right?

Is the problem that;
A switches on followed by B switching on,
A turns off followed by B,
and then when A goes to turn back on its mosfets have to shoot 
through the current currently being carried by both controllers free 
wheeling diodes?

Short of all that, sounds like a call to Jim is in order. He might 
be willing to share enough about the controllers to access the gate 
drive and current limit circuits. From the explosion pictures it 
doesn't look like the cases are potted with anything.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yup, you need paralleling inductors on the output of each controller.
One way to achieve this is to split the field coil in your motor into
two. The ADC 9 inch has four coils, one for each pole shoe, they are
connected two in series and two in parallel so it is easy to separate.
This has of course been done already, Google or search the EVDL
archives for battery blaster.






> Grant Stockly <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>A controller is only a constant current power supply when feeding a
> >>significant inductance. A naive paralleling of controllers would most
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Would it be possible then to (using some kind of stupidly large DPDT 
relay) to switch the coils from series to parallel with just the one 
controller and as such gain a "gear" type effect?


> Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> > Yup, you need paralleling inductors on the output of each controller.
> > One way to achieve this is to split the field coil in your motor into
> > two. The ADC 9 inch has four coils, one for each pole shoe, they are
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > This is just me thinking out loud, but I wonder if they could make a
> > modular controller, that was designed for parallel integration. Many
> > of the larger industrial DC power supplies have current sharing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the replies.
To answer one of the questions: "Why did I rule out the Kelly controllers?" 
I really had not heard of them. LogiSystems was the only other one (in a
reasonable price range) that I knew about.

As far as my Curtis, the low speed squeal was ridiculous. The fact that it
self destructed in a short time convinced me to not get it repaired and buy
a new, different one. I called LogiSystems and they said they do not sell
directly to the public, but gave me a source (EV Parts).

Anyway, my decision is to buy the 120-144 volt 750 amp model. I currently
have 12 12 volt batteries for 144 volts, but may pull two and go with only
120 volts, so this seems perfect.

The Curtis was 500 amps. With a 750 amp LogiSystems this is intentional
overkill. With a 450 amp fuse I will not burn this one out.

The LogiSystems claims that their product has an internal heat sink. Not
sure if this makes sense, but I will probably put it on a finned platform
anyway.

The only oddity that I see between the two is the Curtis has 4 posts (B-,
B+, M-, and A2) while the LogiSystems has only 3 posts (no A2). They said a
reasonable set of instructions is included, so I am assuming this will not
be a problem.

John





> John NLN wrote:
> >
> >
> > I may need a new controller (depending on repair estimates for mine).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>The LogiSystems claims that their product has an internal heat sink. Not
>sure if this makes sense, but I will probably put it on a finned platform
>anyway.
>
>The only oddity that I see between the two is the Curtis has 4 posts (B-,
>B+, M-, and A2) while the LogiSystems has only 3 posts (no A2). They said a
>reasonable set of instructions is included, so I am assuming this will not
>be a problem.

I was told that the parts are bolted to something internally, and 
that the lid is connected to that with an insulator separating the 
two. They don't want you messing with the fans on top because if you 
screw too deep into the holes apparently you will make it through the 
insulator and the case will be live.

Internal "heat sinks" would be pointless, what they probably have is 
closer to a thermal mass with good conduction to the lid. I suppose 
anything that can absorb heat is a heat sink, maybe I'm being too strict. : )

Grant 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

John,

If you want to see a pic of a recent logisystem controller, have a look at:
http://evalbum.com/popupimg.php?12416
or
http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/BJF3t0c-F3e1l6sTEq4dEQ?authkey=TC0qCL4aP2k&feat=directlink


Its a 144-156V 1000Amp, comes with two fans and we've mounted it on an
aluminum plate with the other high-voltage goodies. The maiden voyage will
be this Sunday, I'll try to report back thereafter.

Why are you dropping from 144V to 120V? How much of your top speed will
this cost you?


-Nick
Montreal, QC
http://evalbum.com/1890



> John NLN <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nick -

Thanks for the pictures.

I am going to a 750 amp instead of a 1000 amp because the car is quite light
(Honda Civic 1974).

I may temporally go from 144 volts to 120 volts because one or two of my 12
volt batteries is questionable. They are $250 each and that is for unused,
but several years old. The pack, in general, is very uneven. I do not know
about speed drop, but my commute is 12 miles one way on flat freeway and 55
mph is fine for me (with 132 volts it would top 70 mph).

BTW, from what I could discern from your evalbum pictures - nice car.

John





> Nick Drouin wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nice diagram, Ian. The "Click here for more information" link doesn't
work, however.

Thank you,

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have been running a Logisystems 120V 1000amp controller since last
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Is it possible that since the inductor is outside the controller, that 
you can end up with huge currents between the controllers if they are 
not timed?
Instead of just motor loop current thru the diode, you end up with the 
other controllers current to and "Bang"
>
>> A controller is only a constant current power supply when feeding a
>> significant inductance. A naive paralleling of controllers would most
>> likely result in beating of the two switching frequencies, causing
>> erratic behavior / loop instability, or if the top half of the bridge
>> is actively switched much worse behavior like shoot-through followed
>> by violent destruction. To avoid these problems the controllers would
>> need to be designed to work in parallel (ie synchronized switching),
>> or have sizable inductors on each controller's output.
>
> Why would it matter if the switching frequencies were beating? The 
> controllers are open loop except with respect to their own current 
> limit, right?
>
> Is the problem that;
> A switches on followed by B switching on,
> A turns off followed by B,
> and then when A goes to turn back on its mosfets have to shoot through 
> the current currently being carried by both controllers free wheeling 
> diodes?
>
> Short of all that, sounds like a call to Jim is in order. He might be 
> willing to share enough about the controllers to access the gate drive 
> and current limit circuits. From the explosion pictures it doesn't 
> look like the cases are potted with anything.
>
>
>

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> >> This is just me thinking out loud, but I wonder if they could make a
> >> modular controller, that was designed for parallel integration.
> >> Many of the larger industrial DC power supplies have current
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If you just put controllers in parallel and don't match the impedance
and timing almost perfectly, you'll run into major issues.

Using separate current and temperature limiting on each will just
cause more problems. The MOSFETs that turn off earlier will force the
current to distribute among the other MOSFETs, putting stress on them;
it won't reduce total current. Also, this foldback won't protect the
diodes until all of the modules are in foldback and limiting the
overall current.

If you use a large enough inductor in series with each output, this
will not be a problem. Using multiple controllers each with its own
inductor essentially forms a multi-phase Buck converter. You still
want to synchronize the timings to reduce EMI, but it's an EMI issue,
not a functionality issue. In fact, you may want to run them exactly
out of phase to reduce ripple current.

-Morgan LaMoore



> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Is it possible that since the inductor is outside the controller, that
> > you can end up with huge currents between the controllers if they are
> > not timed?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, I am willing to give them a little leeway, because it is a new product and I want them to be successful. I think it helps to be able to call them up and talk to them as well.

Do you think your Kelly Controller can really do 1200 amps? Like I said, I really have no justification for my bias, I just assume that because it's from China it's over spec'd and poorly made.

I know my Logisystems controller can pull hard for a long time. I only have a meter on the battery side, and it is only good for just over 500 amps, but I have pegged that meter no problem on hard accelerations, so I'm pretty confident that my 1000 amps in the motor loop is legit.

damon

> 
> You're a forgiving fellow.
> 
> I'm running a 1200 amp Kelly Controller. It's relatively small, runs quite
> cool, and haven't had any problems with it so far.
> 
> At this point, I have had my best experiences with Chinese junk, and my very
> worst with American Companies. I think the German stuff is the best, but
> it's kind of hard to get support for.
> 
> Jack Rickard


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ian Hooper wrote:
> > A2 is for plug braking. Curtis is the only brand who have it, its not
> > very important and doesn't really work well anyway.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Ian Hooper wrote:
> > PS: Vaguely related, I recently drew up a "typical wiring diagram" for
> > EVs, see http://www.zeva.com.au/tech.php?section=circuits. If anyone
> > finds errors or has suggestions, let me know! This one is deliberately
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee,

Could you explain some more about the charger interlock.
1- If using an on-board charger.
2- If you have the charger off-board is there a way that your hand won't
complete the circuit on the anderson connector?

Thanks



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Ian Hooper wrote:
> > > PS: Vaguely related, I recently drew up a "typical wiring diagram" for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Charger interlock:
The goal is immobilise the car while you're plugged into the wall. You
don't want to rip cords out of the wall, nor drive through the garage door.

1. Use and AC relay to open the the 12VDC loop for your main contactor
coil. When on charge, there is no way to close the contactor, so it can't
start up. Or if your controller has a Kill Switch Input, you can open that
circuit (careful, most KSI's take full pack voltage).

See Chris Simon's schematic at:
http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/Wiring.htm

2.
For an off-board, you could do the same, the problem is you would have to
run the control wires back to the EV, not just the power. Another easy
option is to have a switch in (near) your charging plug. Flip it when you
plug in, it cuts out the contactor circuit -- some people have put a
micro-switch on the "fuel-tank" door to automate this.

Regarding safety, I'll regurgitate some of the posts I've seen in the past:
plug in your anderson connector before plugging in (turning on) your charger
-- you don't want it 'hot'. Consider having your charger on a GFCI.




On 2/27/09, m gol <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Lee,
>
> Could you explain some more about the charger interlock.
> 1- If using an on-board charger.
> 2- If you have the charger off-board is there a way that your hand won't
> complete the circuit on the anderson connector?
>
> Thanks
>
>


> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Ian Hooper wrote:
> > > > PS: Vaguely related, I recently drew up a "typical wiring diagram" for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

re: Charger Interlock

kta EV (http://www.kta-ev.com/) sells a charger interlock device that
prevents driving away with the charger plugged in:


MAGNECRAFT #W389ACX-9...DPDT Relay, 20 Amps...120 VAC/60 Hz coil...Use for
charging safety interlock...plastic case w/mounting ears...1 lb Currently
listed in their on-line catalog for $16.00.





I'm pretty sure Electro Automotice http://www.electroauto.com/ sells
something similar.





- Peter Flipsen Jr

Pocatello, ID

http://www.evalbum.com/1974



On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Nicolas Drouin


> <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Charger interlock:
> > The goal is immobilise the car while you're plugged into the wall. You
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

From: Nicolas Drouin <[email protected]>
> Lee, Could you expand on: "... No resistor to limit acceleration in 
> reverse." How do I do this, practiacally, with a curtis PB6?



> Craig Egan wrote:
> > I have a selector switch on my dash that throws 2.2k ohms in parallel
> > with the potbox. It makes a great valet or reverse speed limiter.
> > For safety I'd make sure the limit switch in the potbox is used to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> m gol wrote:
> > Could you explain some more about the charger interlock.
> 
> Others have done a good job explaining this. Basically, it's to prevent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> damon henry wrote:
> >
> >
> > Do you think your Kelly Controller can really do 1200 amps? Like I said,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Or you could just put in a second key switch or even something simpler which
requires a removable "key" type device to turn it on. Maybe a simple lock
throttle. Then when charging, put that key on the charger. You can't drive
the car without retrieving the "key" from on top the charger which should
give a good indication that you are plugged in.



Charger interlock:
The goal is immobilise the car while you're plugged into the wall. You
don't want to rip cords out of the wall, nor drive through the garage door.

1. Use and AC relay to open the the 12VDC loop for your main contactor
coil. When on charge, there is no way to close the contactor, so it can't
start up. Or if your controller has a Kill Switch Input, you can open that
circuit (careful, most KSI's take full pack voltage).

See Chris Simon's schematic at:
http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/Wiring.htm

2.
For an off-board, you could do the same, the problem is you would have to
run the control wires back to the EV, not just the power. Another easy
option is to have a switch in (near) your charging plug. Flip it when you
plug in, it cuts out the contactor circuit -- some people have put a
micro-switch on the "fuel-tank" door to automate this.

Regarding safety, I'll regurgitate some of the posts I've seen in the past:
plug in your anderson connector before plugging in (turning on) your charger
-- you don't want it 'hot'. Consider having your charger on a GFCI.


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Controllers%3A-LogiSystems-vs-Curtis-tp22218073p22258906.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 27 Feb 2009 at 20:31, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > The Kelly controller has a nice feature in that if your pack voltage
> > decreases below the threshold you set, it will actually LIMIT the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> dale henderson-2 wrote:
> >
> > t
> > as an american and a combat veteran and with a slight understanding
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Roden-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most controllers I'm familiar with have a low battery current limit built
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Comments inserted below...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Rickard" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis


>
>
>


> > dale henderson-2 wrote:
> >>
> >> t
> >> as an american and a combat veteran and with a slight >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Einstein used to say, "Thing should be as simple as possible, but not
> >> too simple."
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 28 Feb 2009 at 9:00, Jack Rickard wrote:
> 
> > A great controller at $3000 in six months doesn't do me much good. A
> > great controller at $5000 with next day delivery would be better. But
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jack Rickard wrote:
> > > A great controller at $3000 in six months doesn't do me much good.
> > > A great controller at $5000 with next day delivery would be better.
> > > But that doesn't seem to be the mark with most of the people
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Roden-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> > This works if there are enough customers to sustain your business.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Rickard" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis


>
>

>
> The magazine business was great training for this. Any time spent with
> lawyers, employees, or process problems took away from work on the NEXT
> issue, due in 30 days. And NO one cared WHAT I did for them LAST month.
> Only the NEW issue counted. No pressure there.... The reason it was good
> training was that it had the rigor of a deadline issue date every 30 days.
> It was REAL apparent when the new product had to arrive. Not so apparent 
> in
> electronic products. But even more real. I know I can use the SAME
> equipment and process to produce next months issue.

So you are using your experience in a magazine production as a business 
model for manufacturing??

No wonder this is so much BS!! I HAVE been involved in the service retail 
market, including some specialty manufacturing, and I can tell you that it 
DOESN'T work the way you describe at all, unless you have absolutely no 
competition, and no conscience!!!

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]


>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Controllers%3A-LogiSystems-vs-Curtis-tp22218073p22273998.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe-22 wrote:
> >
> >
> > So you are using your experience in a magazine production as a business
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> joe-22 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Not if you plan far enough ahead, and are patient - our society has also
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This thread is getting wayyyyy off topic -- and incendiary to boot. Let's 
end it right here and now, please, before the flames ignite the hydrogen 
from somebody's batteries.

Thanks,

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Suppose Otmar sells 100 controllers a year at $3000 with a 6-month
> >> backlog. Further, let's assume he makes $500 profit per sale; then
> >> he's making $50k/year...
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thank you

John (I did the original post)





> David Roden-3 wrote:
> >
> > This thread is getting wayyyyy off topic -- and incendiary to boot. Let's
> > end it right here and now, please, before the flames ignite the hydrogen
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Jack,
If you are still looking for that 1000 Amp controller, I would suggest that
you visit www.evparts.com . There has been a recent addition of controllers
(from 550 Amp to 1000Amp).
These are available now!
Best wishes -Thos




> Jack Rickard <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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