# [EVDL] Shiti-Car! Er, I MEAN Citi-Car, WAS: Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi EVerybody;

AH! Citi-Cars again? I speak from my experiance with them at startup! Yup! 
Guilty! Of helping"Design" the Citi's suspension and steering. It was sorta 
based on my Taiwan ElectroLiner ,I had cobbled together in Taichung, Taiwan; 
Solid axle, lief springs, etc. Hell! I'm NOT an automobile engineer!I just 
"Built" stuff, Oh This SHOULD work, played around with caster camber angles 
by"Oh It LOOKS like it'll work?" Take it out on the road, Gees it steers 
wierd, had a buddy there in the Army who had built cars as a hobby. HE 
suggested the angle of the Spindle arms so the damn car would turn corners; 
inside wheel taking a shorter radious. WOW! Who'd a thunk it?

The Electro Liner cruised at 25-30MPH so ride and handling wasn't much 
of an issue.So I figured I could keep my relative "sucess" going. Citi car 
was a shorter wheelbase than the" Liner" I had a longer drag link, or 
whatEVer ya call the arm that goes from the steering box to the spindle? 
Bump steer wasn't as much of an issue, as the arm was longer. I tried 
different steer ing , and suspension setups, coils and shocks, slowly 
evolvoing, as I realized I was TRYING to reinvent the Automobile. Sigh! 
Wasn't my intention! Automobiles wre pretty perfected, even in the 60's! 
Later on just saying " I don't want to bother" at starting from scratch, 
although with what I know NOW, sure woulda helped 40 years ago!But for what 
you lack in basic automotive engineering you make up for with sheer 
determination, foolishness, and TIME, infinate patience. The Good Stuff was 
I had a light chassis. You could just roll ElectroLiner over on it's side 
WITHOUT the batteries, like to work on it! Maybe it weighed 3-400 lbs? so I 
had SOME stuff right.a centralize battery box that hel;d 6 8d truck 
batteries, supported low down in the chassis, using design principles of an 
elongated Archbar type RR truck, you could slide the battery pack OUT to 
swap batteries, although I never did, I COULD have. Thinking of "Taichung 
Electric Taxi Service", a "home Base" near the Taiwan RR station, Trains 
were the best way to go any distance in Taiwan, back then. Car sorta evolved 
like a Jeepney, Phillipine style. Two Motor drive, one for each rear wheel., 
streetcar-like series parallel control. Bob Beaumont took a few of my BETTER 
ideas with Tropica with the twin motor drive, natures' most perfect 
differential.So "Beau" Bob Beaumont wanted a bare bones basic automoble and 
by God he got it! Sorry, guyz, it WAS Bad! This is why I say get a Citi, 
restore it as a historical curiosity. Don't DRIVE it on todaze crazy ass 
streets! Unless yur life insurance is paid up,have no loving Significent 
Others ,or as somebody commented a death wish?For God's sake don't TRY to 
soup it up!The hell with it!Go buy a Rabbit, Carman Ghia, Porshe, something 
somebody cleverer than you ,had done the design work on? By the time ya hack 
and upgrade a Citi with real suspension, brakes etc ya COULDA converted a 
Real car, with functioning doors windoz, brakes, lights; silly stuff like 
that!etc Yeah! I have been saying, and I'll stick to it, conversions are an 
excersize in Masochism! Godamn car is TOO heavy to begin with, 2000lbs for a 
damn Jetta! I stuff 1000 lbs of battery in it and I'm overweight? Yeah! I 
KNOW I'M overweight, I mean the CAR! This is why I feel Lee Hart, Tim Medeck 
to be nominated for Sainthood!! For realizing, like Elon Musk, that EV's are 
just begging to be purpose built? Elon has deeper pockets, though.I think 
had he spotted Les an' Tim to a few mil. he woulda got more bang for his 
buck?!EV-1 comes to mind. We all know it was a flop? NOT! BOY! Did it work, 
I LOVED that car! I wanted it from Day One In Montreal, at EVS-Something 
YEARS ago. Only General Murders car I EVer wanted. To see them crushed to 
death in the movie brings tears to your(MY) eyes, emotional guy here.When I 
saw my First Honda Insite I said WOW! Son of EV-1 !Form follows function, a 
baby EV-! Too bad they didn't last long enough that threre were many used 
ones to pick from to convert to a REAL EV!? NOW that woulda been a 
conversion biz? Lite Wayland style battery packs, AC drive from AC 
Propulsion, or Metric Mind's stuff? a 2000 lb EV/ Batteries included?Yeah! 
Where DID all the Insites go?? Sure as hell don't see any on the road 
anymore??Honda didn't recall and kill them?

Anyhooo? Enough electrons inconvenienced for now, with this post?

Seeya at the ShoreLine Trolley Museam Tomorrow?

Bob
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave King" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watt*Hr/Mile for a VW beetle


> John
>
> You wouldn't have any more data to share on the Citi would you? A friend 
> in
> town just finished going to 72 volts but has a curtis. It sounds like he
> might want to switch out if they drop that badly.
>
> 50mph in a citi? you must have a death wish ;-] 30 was waaay scary enough.
> Just curious if you did some suspension mods.
>
> Dave
> > 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> "Bob Rice" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi EVerybody;
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Neon John wrote [of Bob Rice]:
> So YOU are the one that I get to curse for using an ordinary bolt as the
> kingpin, eh?

Yep. Bob was the "Scotty" of the Starship Sebring-Vanguard.  "Ach, 
Cap'n Beaumont, the engine canna take any more!"

> And about those brakes... 

Brakes? The first ones had Dico airplane brakes. Can't beat aircraft 
quality, right?  Besides, who needs brakes when it won't go that fast?

Seriously, I think Bob did a fantastic job under the circumstances. You 
have to remember that Sebring Vanguard was a *tiny* company, terribly 
underfinanced, in a horrible location, competing with some of the 
largest companies in the world. Yet they produced and sold *thousands* 
of on-road EVs. I don't think anyone yet has produced more EVs than they 
did!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


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