# Conversion of SepEX to DC series possible ?



## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

simple question with no simple answer.

it is conceivable, but would take a lot of learnin to get it right. Some folks have used dual controllers as well, smaller one on the field. 

some good low level sepex details here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171434#post171434

weather you rewind it or reconfigure it or come up with a custom controller, you still need to consider the resulting magnetic and electrical properties of the machine. (and you will be farther ahead of the game if you sort out sepex controlling)

more sepex goodness here, 
http://electric-booger.blogspot.com/2013/01/motor-basics.html

for starters he just ran a fixed current through the field (should behave like a pm motor)

re: reconfiguring, depending how many poles and how they are wound, you might be able to set it up as a series or a parallel motor.

a dataplate would be helpful, and a diagram of how the poles are wound and connected together.

there are lots of pro's to sepex, regen and field weakining, even reverse if the field is on a full bridge. But I'm not aware of many that made it into projects.


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## onegreenev (May 18, 2012)

prensel said:


> Simple question:
> Is it possible to reconfigure (whatever it would take) to convert a SepEx DC motor to a more of 'standard' Series DC motor ?
> 
> Reason for asking is because there are no aftermarket SepEx controllers available for a 120V SepEx motor anymore and i'm stuck with this Sagem SepEx controller. A conversion from SepEx to Series DC would make it possible to use different brands of DC controllers....


Re-configure your budget and buy a good Series DC motor and controller. You have to buy a controller anyway right? So go find a good used Warp9 and go have fun. Problem solved. I understand the dilemma. You could check with Kelly Controllers but their SepEx controllers may be limited for small industrial equipment and not really suitable for on road use. 

Finding a good used Series is the most logical and requires no rewinding and rebuilding. If you happen to have the time and expertise to do the job buying a series dc is your best option. 

What are you converting? 


Pete


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

The SepEx motor in question is a LeroySomer SA13 as used in Citroen/Peugeot cars in the late '90.
Problem is that the drive axles are passing though the motor itself so its just not possible to use another motor.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

prensel said:


> Simple question:
> Is it possible to reconfigure (whatever it would take) to convert a SepEx DC motor to a more of 'standard' Series DC motor ?
> 
> Reason for asking is because there are no aftermarket SepEx controllers available for a 120V SepEx motor anymore and i'm stuck with this Sagem SepEx controller. A conversion from SepEx to Series DC would make it possible to use different brands of DC controllers....


Hi prensel,

It'd be best to have a motor shop wind and install a new set of field coils. Although many of the series motors of this size and type use copper ribbon for the coils, if that isn't available, multiple strands of round AWG magnet wire can be used. It's a bitch to wind requiring custom forms or blocks and resin treatment and then inter coil connects/terminals. If you can locate a shop/builder to whom I could talk turkey, I'll calculate turns for you. A place with a dynamometer would be best, but not a gotta-have.

Regards,

major


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Hi major,

So it could be possible/doable ?
Thats very interesting...

Like said im pretty tied to the motors housing/anchor because of the hollow anchor taking the driving axles.
It seems a lot of these motors had a fabrication fault at the factory causing the wire lacker protection coming of after all these years causing a short in the field windings which causing a burned Sagem controller.
Neither LeroySomer nor Sagem can provide any info or repair.

Plenty of reasons to convert this thing to series DC and using a decent series controller. I have an OpenRevolt 144V controller already waiting for its new purpose. 

What exactly would it take, where do i start ?
I currently have a motor on the workbench taken apart because of this shorted field wiring. 

Thanks,

Paul


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

how does the car go in reverse?

edit: also this link implies the controller is part of the vmu which manages the dc/dc, fans, charging, monitoring, etc.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=732071

seems like it could be a lot simpler to just fix the motor and controller instead of trying to change things. (find someone who can fix controllers, just like finding someone who can fix a motor)


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dcb said:


> how does the car go in reverse?


Assuming the car is direct drive (no shifting, no reverse gear), you just reverse the field polarity with either SepEx or series. With the series field, you need big contactors.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm just hinting that converting this might be a bit of peeling the onion, I would assume it is direct drive given the dual outputs, and needs electrical reversing (big contactors if series), plus everything else the controller is managing on the car *might* not play well with a different motor controller.

It could just be a bad power transistor in the controller, or the controller might be packed with potting compound, but it is definitely worth a look and asking about if it can be repaired.

plus there is no guesswork in replacing the existing field windings 1:1.

edit: were it in experienced hands, I'd say why not, have fun, but I don't think that is the case.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

prensel said:


> Hi major,
> 
> So it could be possible/doable ?
> Thats very interesting...
> ...


Hi Paul,

Not too sure about your neck of the woods. See if there is something like http://www.easa.com/ over there. Then check for places doing service work on forklifts, cranes, light rail, maybe military equipment, mining, etc. Try to contact the manufacturer of the motor. Ask to be connected to the engineering dept. They might have a set of series coils from another motor with the same core which could fit. If no joy there, perhaps Kostov could direct you to a service vendor.

Snap and post some photos. 

major


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dcb said:


> plus there is no guesswork in replacing the existing field windings 1:1.


Who's guessing?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

major said:


> Who's guessing?



well aside from the variables I've already called out, the armature will see reduced voltage with a field in series, the torque/rpm curve will change dramatically, performance is bound to suffer, perhaps both on the low and high end. We don't know what the original field mapping was.

edit: for all we know (and maybe you know better admittedly) the motor field circuit IS the charger.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dcb said:


> well aside from the variables I've already called out, the armature will see reduced voltage with a field in series, the torque/rpm curve will change dramatically, performance is bound to suffer, perhaps both on the low and high end. We don't know what the original field mapping was.


So a volt or two drop on the field is going to kill performance on a 120V motor? And seeing that a lot of SepEx maps mimic the series motor speed/torque, I think we could handle it. I don't see any technical barriers to achieving performance similar to OEM, obviously without regeneration and possibly some smoothness of operation, but suffer? 

You know? Maybe Paul's already exhausted the OEM equipment repair route. What he's asking here is doable and I am willing to help him. Is there risk? Sure. But it won't be from guessing.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

major said:


> So a volt or two drop on the filed is going to kill performance on a 120V motor?


I'm not saying that is a huge factor. It is of course doable to make it work, but might be a lot more work than popping open the controller and replacing the burnt looking bits, or a bit of component testing, considering how integrated the peugot system seems to be.

and of course the sepex has independant torque and flux control, which is where a lot of the guesswork comes in as to how it will perform.

if it was yours, wouldn't you start by examining the controller though? Even if there was no manufacturer support?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

fyi, here is a report of replacing an igbt in a sagem 106 controller, no details, but a name (sure plenty of folks here could have a go at it).

http://www.abelcars.dk/EVs/Peugeot106.html

deviating from stock in this car looks like it could be a big can of worms is what I'm trying to get at. I have no doubt a series conversion can push it, but the controller box also does charging and monitoring and dc-dc and who knows how it will react without being connected to the motor (more guesswork) or what you will lose in the process.

another igbt reference:
http://www.evalbum.com/2406
IGBT controller
Integrated charger, 230VAC 13A supply.
Integrated DC-DC, 100A
(plus the dashboard/etc)


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Hi guys,

I really appreciate your help and concerns and other thoughts about the project.

I have all circuit diagrams of the Sagem controllerbox and i have repaired a burned-from- field-short Sagem box before so yes i'm familiar with this thing. 

The Sagembox is a complete unit consisting of a SepEx controller, a dc/dc converter and a 20Amps charger and an ECU. The biggest problem with this box is that it is a closed system regarding the software, settings etc. It is a real PITA to get these units going with Lithium conversions. The internal protocol is on some points deciphered but most of it is closed as a clamped shell. Obviuously Sagem doesnt support ANY fiddling with their stuff, even after 20-some years, so they dont provide any help or info.

For the dc/dc module there are better and affordable COTS solutions. Same counts for the charger, i even prefer to use an external charger instead of the internal one in the Sagembox. Fact is that the Sagembox housing is big enough to install all formentioned parts from non-Sagem supliers.

Connection from the ECU to the outside world, meaning the rest of the car like dashboard, chargerdoor, lights etc is completely known and very straightforward. There's no problem in simulating and driving/generating these signals (it is all relais based) from a simple microcontroller soluton like an Arduino.

So all in all the biggest issue is this SepEx configuration. If there were any known to work SepEx controllers to buy i would have gone that route, even as a replacement for the any still working Sagemboxes.

I have thought of getting a standard gearbox like originally is in the petrol version of the !06/Saxo and attach a decent Kostov engine on that but this would mean complete alteration of all mounting points.. Do-able yes, preferable no, at this point.

So back to my topic subject: conversion from SepEx to series DC..


I will take some pictures tomorrow from the disassembled motor.

In the meantime I found an add from someone selling a coil-winding machine, not sure if this would work and if i could do the winding stuff myself... I have some tooling like lathe and mill so any missing tools probably could be made....


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks! Good to know you have the rest of the systems covered, pardon the interruption major.

Also, any specs would be interesting, i.e. does it have interpoles?


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

I've read (and learned) a lot the past 48 hours about the series-DC and SepEx motors.
Regarding the winding and looking at several winding machines and winding videos i've decided to (try) to do the winding myself on my cnc mill. Because it can do thread-milling i assume i could create a jig/core to wind around it. By feeding the coated wire from a fixed point and moving the z-spindle holding the core up and down according to a given pitch i assume i can create near-perfect windings  Well, thats all in theory...

'Only' thing left to do is to determine the size and length/amount of windings per field...
If i'm correct when moving from SepEx to series i will loose some flexibilty and a tradeof has to be made between torq/power and topspeed. Since current topspeed is limited at 95km/h at the controller anyway i think its possible to keep that 95kmh as the limit also in favour of more torque at lower speeds when its configured in series.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

prensel said:


> 'Only' thing left to do is to determine the size and length/amount of windings per field....


Crusty ol' maj knows best here, but 2 useful rules of thumb are to that the new series field should have the same total ampere*turns as the sepex field and the same continuous current rating as the armature.


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## dontommazo (May 4, 2010)

I am driving the ABB GN21 SEPEX motor in my Golf CityStromer with two Open Revolt Cougar controllers. The main one is used for the armature and is current controlled based on trottle input. The second controller has just one MOSFET and is controlling the field current as a function of motor speed through a static lookup table. It works quite OK, but it would work even better to control armature and field from the same uController, with armature PWM duty cycle as input for the field weakening. With Static field weakening I have to weaken field based on worst case scenario, i.e. minimum battery pack voltage.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a pic of the LeroySomer motor.

The 4 big coils are connected in series as field with the red and blue wire to the controller SepEx connections. Wire for these coils is 1.48mm in diameter. Total R for all 4 coils is 4R9. 

The 4 small coils are connected (i assume) in series with the armature. These small coils are made of flat copper strip 18*1.58mm. Total R for these coils is 0R3.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

I was just thinking:

The motor in its current setup is able to draw about max 200Amps.
If the field windings are to be connected in series with the armature, they need to be able to carry 200A also. Rule of thumb: this means the new wire for the field coils need to be at least 25mm2 which is about 3mm in thickness.
The present field wire is about 6,8mm2. This means the new field wiring will be about 1/4 of the length (or 1/4 the amount of windings) of the present field wire, right ?

Since the field is 4R9 and the diameter is 1.48mm the total length for the field should be about R = (Rho * length) / A => length = R * A / Rho => length = 4R9 * (1,48)·(1,48)·PI / 0,0175.
Length is about 1926meters for 4 coils so thats just over 480m per coil.

The new fields will be about 120meter of 3mm diameter (25mm2) wire each or is it possible to take the same sized wire as the present fields and have 4 of these in parallel instead of 1 thick 25mm2 ?
The new field R = Rho * length / A => R = (0,0175* 120) / (4 * 6,8) = 0R077 per field = 0R308 in total. Thats about the same as the smaller field windings which i believe/assume are in series with the armature. 


What effect has this on the overall working of the motor ?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

Interesting motor.

I want to hear what major has to say about it, but generally I would say have the conductors be the same cross section as the interpole ribbon (i.e. enough strands of the existing pole winding size in hand/parallel to add up to the ribbon cross sectional area).

the next question is number of turns. The effect as I understand it is too few turns and you will make more speed than torque (won't launch as well, field is too weak), too many turns and you make more torque than speed (can't reach top speed, field is too strong). Plus some fudge factor for being able to overcurrent it a bit.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

The new field can't be 120 meters; that would never fit. My feeling is that it has to be a lot thicker than 3 mm diameter too.

You need about the same number of ampere-turns. You will get many many more amps, so you'll need many many fewer turns. It could be as few as three turns.

It will also have to be a lot lower resistance than 4R7; 200 A at 4R7 would require a voltage drop of 940 V!


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Coulomb said:


> The new field can't be 127 meters; that would never fit. My feeling is that it has to be a lot thicker than 3 mm diameter too.
> 
> You need about the same number of ampere-turns. You will get many many more amps, so you'll need many many fewer turns. It could be as few as three turns.
> 
> It will also have to be a lot lower resistance than 4R7; 200 A at 4R7 would require a voltage drop of 940 V!


Okay, so if my calculations are correct the current field coils are about 480m each. Say every turn is about 50cm there are 960 turns on each field coil.
I believe the Sagem controls the field with 90V and 10A. F (AmpTurns) is 960*10 - 9600. 

With the new series setup the max current in the field is 200A so there should be 9600/200 = 48 turns for each field. 
Again with 50cm per turn each field has 24meter of wire. 
Is it possible to use 4 'strands' of 6mm2 wire per turn instead of one solid 25mm2 wire ?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

prensel said:


> ... Wire for these coils is 1.48mm in diameter....flat copper strip 18*1.58mm.


by my reckoning, you can use that same thin wire gauge, whatever it is, and run 17 strands in parallel to get the necessary current capacity. thin wire is 1.72mm^2 divided into ribbon area (18*1.58)



prensel said:


> The present field wire is about 6,8mm2.


so just a rough guess there. but 6.8mm^2/1.48 ~ 32 strands. If you account for triangular packing you can get it down to ~36 strands. You might have trouble getting more than two turns (@ 17 in hand). I think I misunderstood the 6.8mm^2 comment though, just looking at the field. my marbles in a jar guess is 578 turns per field though, not 960.

But whatever major (or whomever) figures for the right number of turns per field, it would be good to fill in any extra space with more wire in parallel.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks for the photo and info Paul. I need a photo (or several) of the armature to determine how it is wound, the number of segments on the commutator, armature conductor cross sectional size if possible. Core diameter and length also. 

When you say 200Amps max, is that the limit of the controller? Was there any nameplate type of information about the motor? And actual in-car performance taken, like maximum Amps, cruising Amps, RPM at mph, etc?

Measurements of the field coils will help. It will likely be that the amount of copper in the main field coils will remain the same as is presently in the SepEx coils. Just larger (effective) wire and less turns per coil. However you have the option of connecting the 4 coils in 4S, 2S2P, or 4P. This will affect the parallel wires needed and perhaps enable easier wind. Also the coil/coil connects will be difficult due to the interpole windings.

How was the motor ventilated? 200Amps thru the interpole coil conductor seems excessive for a continuous rating. Unless blast air cooled I suspect continuous rating was half or less. Your estimate for field V and I (actually Watts or power) also seems excessive except for intermittent duty. Any rating available from that section of the control?

How massive is this motor? Like 100kg? Don't need an exact figure, just curious. 

Might as well take the dimensions of the comm and brushes while you're at it. Every bit helps. More pics, the better.

Cheers,

major

edit: Is the motor functional now, if it was assembled? Like for low voltage no-load tests.


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

major said:


> Thanks for the photo and info Paul. I need a photo (or several) of the armature to determine how it is wound, the number of segments on the commutator, armature conductor cross sectional size if possible. Core diameter and length also.
> 
> When you say 200Amps max, is that the limit of the controller? Was there any nameplate type of information about the motor? And actual in-car performance taken, like maximum Amps, cruising Amps, RPM at mph, etc?
> 
> ...


Hi,
i dug up this thread but unfortunately I could not find the picture of the windings any more which you explained to me 
See
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=333678#post333678.
Se also
See http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg02449.html

A few years ago we were confronted with the same problem of a damaged SAGEM-controller and using Lithium batteriesinstead of the original NiCd. The main problem was that we had to keep the original Leroy Somer Motor.
Basicly it is a 10 kW Motor which can be driven at 20 kW for a few minutes. 
Motor is 70 kg, has 4 poles, one big armature winding with 0.5 OHM resistance and smaller field winding of about 6 OHM resistance. 
The maximum curent in armature is 200A ( nominal is 100A), in the Field the max current is 10A. The max RPM is 6000, gear ratio is 7.5
The driving behaviour is like this (three main stages), field is set high at beginning but then lowered gradually (or stepwise)
1) Constant torque. Field current is set 10-8A. This is at startup and until cars reaches speed 15 km/h (about 1000 RPM,). 
2) Constant Power (Torque X Speed) Field is current is lowered to 2A . Car reaches speed up to 60 km/h (about 4000 RPM), has still enough torque to climb hills
3) Overspeed. Field current is below 2A (not less than 0.5 A). Here car has very little torque just enough to keep the car rolling at 90 km/h. RPM reaches 6000.

The easiest way to control this car is by fixing the Field current at 2A (setting 12V at the field), then it can be driven from 0-60/h km on even pitch. The armature then draws from 100-150A when fed with 120V. 
To drive up a steep hill field has to be set above 6V (which limits the car speed to 30 km/h). To reach speed higher than 60 km/h field voltage has to be set below 2A.

I do not know if it makes sense to rewind this motor...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks gun, useful information for sure. Since we lose field weakening with a series conversion, top speed may suffer. I wonder if battery voltage can be increased. There's a change to Li anyway. 

major


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## gunnarhs (Apr 24, 2012)

major said:


> Thanks gun, useful information for sure. Since we lose field weakening with a series conversion, top speed may suffer. I wonder if battery voltage can be increased. There's a change to Li anyway.
> 
> major


Yes we had 136V (controller was supposed to support 140 V) which increased the rated speed by 10%. But this resulted also a higher current in the armature so we were more often near the 170 A (continious) limit of the controller.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm currently using 40S Li-ion setup so my voltage range is between 128V - 168V.

Yes major i could do some bench-testing by assembling the motor.
I will do some more precise resistance testing also of the current field windings to get the number of windings more precise.
And take more pics of the armature.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

dontommazo said:


> I am driving the ABB GN21 SEPEX motor in my Golf CityStromer with two Open Revolt Cougar controllers. The main one is used for the armature and is current controlled based on trottle input. The second controller has just one MOSFET and is controlling the field current as a function of motor speed through a static lookup table. It works quite OK, but it would work even better to control armature and field from the same uController, with armature PWM duty cycle as input for the field weakening. With Static field weakening I have to weaken field based on worst case scenario, i.e. minimum battery pack voltage.


Could you be more specific about this setup ?
This certainly could be interesting too as an alternative for the Sagem box nd keeping the SepEx motor as it is.

Apart from that i still want to try to convert at least one of the motors to series-DC, just for the fun of it


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## dontommazo (May 4, 2010)

prensel said:


> Could you be more specific about this setup ?


Okay, I'll try.  First of all, if you want information about the Open Revolt controller as such, follow the link in my first post. 

Regarding my specific setup, the controller used for armature is an unmodified Cougar 500A. The controller outputs a DC current proportional to the throttle position (if enough voltage is available).

The field winding controller uses a standard Cougar control board but a downsized power board since current is limited to ~10A. The throttle input is replaced by an input signal from the motor's tactometer, and the firmware is modified such that the field current reference is taken from a static lookup table that maps the field current to the motor RPM.

As I mentioned before if I would redo this implementation I would try to keep the armature and field current control loops in the same controller such that I could easily use armature PWM duty cycle to control the field weakening. This would also allow me to implement regenerative braking. 

Everything is fitted into the same box as the original ABB SEPEX controller, and original heat sink is reused.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

just wanted to mention that an open source 3 phase controller would be a good candidate for a diy sepex as well since it is designed to operate 3 half bridges. 
1 larger half bridge for the armature, and 2 half bridges for the field (so you can reverse it). Not saying it is easy.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

dcb said:


> just wanted to mention that an open source 3 phase controller would be a good candidate for a diy sepex as well since it is designed to operate 3 half bridges.
> 1 larger half bridge for the armature, and 2 half bridges for the field (so you can reverse it). Not saying it is easy.


Has anyone done this before ?
And which opensource 3-phase are you thinking about ?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

dontommazo said:


> ....
> 
> Regarding my specific setup, the controller used for armature is an unmodified Cougar 500A. The controller outputs a DC current proportional to the throttle position (if enough voltage is available).
> 
> The field winding controller uses a standard Cougar control board but a downsized power board since current is limited to ~10A. The throttle input is replaced by an input signal from the motor's tactometer....


A few years ago, I helped a member figure out how to do it. Can't recall his name or the thread. Anyway what worked was to have the field controller set current (same as voltage or duty cycle) proportional to armature current. I think he used a current transducer on the armature loop and its output as the input feed (throttle) to the field controller. It worked well for him IIRC. 

Maybe give that a try for starters and develop from there. 

major


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

dontommazo said:


> Okay, I'll try.  First of all, if you want information about the Open Revolt controller as such, follow the link in my first post.


Unfortunally a lot of the links on the wiki dont work anymore.

I have an already built OpenRevolt 500A laying around so all i need is to add a second controller and a smaller power module if i wanted to keep on using the SepEx setup.

Like said in one of my first posts: its not just the SepEx setup that bothers me, its the fact that the motor itself is going to deteriorate after so many years and the field windings are falling apart and creating a short in the controller, any controller.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

Well things have changed in this project.

I've decided to 'convert' the old Leroy-Somer SepEx engine to a modern Remy HVH250 motor.
This means taking out the SepEx centre piece of the LeroySomer engine and adapt/transplant a Remy HVH250 cartridge to the existing gear-box and driving axles. 'Size-wise' it should nearly fit the existing SepEx outer 'shell' but im thinking of CNC milling a new cover for the Remy because of the cooling this motor needs.

For the controller i will get rid of the Sagem SepEx controller and plan on using a Solectria / Azure Dynamics UMOC445TF controller.

Performance wise it will go up from a 11kW to a 67kW engine 
With lots more torque and RPM going to be fitted in my small Peugeot 106 Electrique.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

prensel said:


> Well things have changed in this project.
> 
> I've decided to 'convert' the old Leroy-Somer SepEx engine to a modern Remy HVH250 motor.
> This means taking out the SepEx centre piece of the LeroySomer engine and adapt/transplant a Remy HVH250 cartridge to the existing gear-box and driving axles. 'Size-wise' it should nearly fit the existing SepEx outer 'shell' but im thinking of CNC milling a new cover for the Remy because of the cooling this motor needs.
> ...


Do you know how to reprogram that controller?


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

According the UMOC manual all settings could be changed by the serial port and a standard PC terminal program.
Havent tried it yet because the UMOC is still on its way to me.
Hopefully next week i'll be able to connect it to the Remy and start toying with it.


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## WolfTronix (Feb 8, 2016)

major said:


> Do you know how to reprogram that controller?


The UMOC controllers are easy to reprogram, see this page:
http://wolftronix.com/motorControllers.htm


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WolfTronix said:


> The UMOC controllers are easy to reprogram, see this page:
> http://wolftronix.com/motorControllers.htm


And from there you'll be a able to handle resolver feedback? Hey, that'd be great. I hope he keeps us posted. Very interested in how it is done.

major


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## Tomdb (Jan 28, 2013)

UMOC are encoder based controllers. So you need to convert the resolver to a two fase signal squarewave OR install an external encoder.

Are all UMOC's capable of sensorless operation?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Tomdb said:


> UMOC are encoder based controllers. So you need to convert the resolver to a two fase signal squarewave OR install an external encoder.
> 
> Are all UMOC's capable of sensorless operation?


Remy is an IPM motor. Doubt you'd get good results from quadrature encoder. UMOCs are set up for ACIM, aren't they? Also, what is max freq? Remy is 10 pole.


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## WolfTronix (Feb 8, 2016)

major said:


> Remy is an IPM motor. Doubt you'd get good results from quadrature encoder. UMOCs are set up for ACIM, aren't they? Also, what is max freq? Remy is 10 pole.


I have seen UMOCs with 48 and 60 PPR quadrature encoders.

If you set the slip to zero, and run in volts/Hz mode, I think you can run an IPM motor in synchronous mode.

I recall 250Hz being the max frequency, but I would have to look that up...


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## WolfTronix (Feb 8, 2016)

Tomdb said:


> UMOC are encoder based controllers. So you need to convert the resolver to a two fase signal squarewave OR install an external encoder.
> 
> Are all UMOC's capable of sensorless operation?


I think they are hardware capable of sensor less vector mode...
But the one I have definitely has PROMs installed:
http://www.wolftronix.com/umoc445_704/images/IMG_6396.jpg

So I assume it is running custom firmware for the particular motor it is programmed for.

They normally don't have PROMs installed:
http://www.wolftronix.com/umoc445_574/images/IMG_8042.jpg


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

WolfTronix said:


> I have seen UMOCs with 48 and 60 PPR quadrature encoders.
> 
> If you set the slip to zero, and run in volts/Hz mode, I think you can run an IPM motor in synchronous mode.
> 
> I recall 250Hz being the max frequency, but I would have to look that up...


V per f and zero slip means ramp acceleration. No joy there if even possible to drive. 250Hz with 10 poles is 3000 RPM.


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## prensel (Feb 21, 2010)

major said:


> V per f and zero slip means ramp acceleration. No joy there if even possible to drive. 250Hz with 10 poles is 3000 RPM.


I'll have to wait for it to arrive to see what kind UMOC it is, with or without proms etc. In the worst case the UMOC445TF i'm waiting for might not be usable for the Remy. If thats so i'll have to source another controller like the Rhinehart PM100. 
My biggest challenge for now is to adapt the Remy cartridge to the existing LeroySomer housing.


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## WolfTronix (Feb 8, 2016)

prensel said:


> I'll have to wait for it to arrive to see what kind UMOC it is, with or without proms etc. In the worst case the UMOC445TF i'm waiting for might not be usable for the Remy. If thats so i'll have to source another controller like the Rhinehart PM100.
> My biggest challenge for now is to adapt the Remy cartridge to the existing LeroySomer housing.


You might need to get a DMOC, they support resolvers.

If you find that you don't need the UMOC445, I would be interested in it if the price is right.


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