# Chevy Volt batteries in conversion



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

There's a long and interesting thread on Chevy Volt batteries already here, but has anyone actually used any Volt batteries in a home EV conversion that is on the road?

My 914ev has been garaged for three years for want of batteries. I'm very interested in the idea of outfitting it with Volt batteries. It seems entirely possible but there are a few logistical issues I'm unsure about, the largest being BMS. (Next would be charging, and then perhaps cooling, if anyone is doing that.)

Another question is what is the smallest unit which someone has broken them down to? Yes, I know in the thread I mentioned it appears someone has broken them down to the individual cells. But again, for practical purposes (if there are any) what have you used in your running conversion?

It seems the best thing for my application would be to increase the parallel connections by x2. I know there are 288 individual cells connected as 3p96s. In the simplest form a 6p48s would make a nice 192v 90Ah pack for me. But in looking at the dissection videos, it might be easier to keep them in the existing 24v and 48v modules.

ANYWAY, it would be interesting to know if anyone has successfully deployed these batteries in their home conversion, and what you had to do in order to make it work.

Thanks,


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi
The chevy Volt battery can easily be split in different configuration only by moving screwed bus bar because it consist of individual pack of 12S 3P (one 12s is actually two 6s 3P)
So, with those 8 packs of 12S you can build: 12S 24P (45v 360Ah), 24S 12P (90v 180Ah), 48S 6P (180v 90Ah) or 96S 3P (360v 45Ah).

I plan to build a 48S 6P configuration for my Smart. For that, I will need to use a BMS constituted of 48 boards (one per cell) because I think link the two separated 3P, one with the other, with a cable/bus bar.
This bus bar is tricky because it imply to find a good way to strongly fix this bus bar between two parallel cells.


----------



## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

halestorm said:


> There's a long and interesting thread on Chevy Volt batteries already here, but has anyone actually used any Volt batteries in a home EV conversion that is on the road?
> 
> My 914ev has been garaged for three years for want of batteries. I'm very interested in the idea of outfitting it with Volt batteries. It seems entirely possible but there are a few logistical issues I'm unsure about, the largest being BMS. (Next would be charging, and then perhaps cooling, if anyone is doing that.)
> 
> ...


I need to upload the most recent video for my build but as far as breaking down the modules I posted a video here that shows as far as I would go. Anymore is a real PITA.

http://youtu.be/00tTckGUv7I

You would break it down to 48V modules and them parallel them. Are you planning on cooling them? Keeping the liquid cooling require some forethought but I would highly recommend it.


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

kerrymann said:


> I need to upload the most recent video for my build but as far as breaking down the modules I posted a video here that shows as far as I would go. Anymore is a real PITA.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00tT...HcI10lapf4MBgg


This video doesn't exist 



kerrymann said:


> You would break it down to 48V modules and them parallel them.


There are also 24V modules, too, right? If I understand correctly, a pack contains five 48v modules and four 24v modules. Hrm, that's what I had written down from someplace, but that doesn't add up; I'm 48v short.




kerrymann said:


> Are you planning on cooling them? Keeping the liquid cooling require so for thought but I would highly recommend it.


I'm not sure I understand that last sentence, but as for cooling, I don't know. That's kind-of what I was asking was whether or not anyone who is using these batteries in their EV, if they were cooling them or not. If so, how?


----------



## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

halestorm said:


> This video doesn't exist
> I'm not sure I understand that last sentence, but as for cooling, I don't know. That's kind-of what I was asking was whether or not anyone who is using these batteries in their EV, if they were cooling them or not. If so, how?


Weird, try this:

http://youtu.be/00tTckGUv7I

A trans cooler or similar heat exchanger and a small water pump is all you need. I have actually been working on putting together a full kit to make the volt batteries easier for DIY installation.


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

kerrymann said:


> Weird, try this:
> 
> http://youtu.be/00tTckGUv7I


Very nice, thanks! Now at 7:15 you say that it's made of 48v and 24v modules. I think you mis-spoke at 7:46 when you said the middle pack is made of 24v. From the looks of it, it appears we have seven 48v modules and two 24v modules, in total.



kerrymann said:


> A trans cooler or similar heat exchanger and a small water pump is all you need.


Great idea, thanks!

What about BMS? You're going to want to connect a BMS to each parallel set, and from your video at 12:00, the top of each cell appears to be just tabs. So you'll have to connect a BMS somehow to these tabs, right?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

ask the people that have one: modules are 120, 76, 48, 48 vdc. Mcrat and yabert split these, but they come out of the case to do that. Yabert says they don't need water cooling, I haven't tried since I kinda like the module configuration.

Bms leads are Orange leads attached to "worthless" control modules every three cells. Aluminium heat exchangers and plastic manifolds round out the module. Modules look like they could be reassembled, kind of a hokey retaining screw could be longer or shorter. Lots of garbage electronics.

I've pushed mine to 350 amps, Yabert says they will do more, BUT I Only use 5 gallon camping water jug and a cheap pump for cooling

They are 18 kWh at my charge levels with 12 kWh useable

My $.02 YMMV


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

piotrsko said:


> Yabert says they don't need water cooling...


Wait, wait, wait... I said in my thread about power capability of the Volt battery:


> I don't have enough place in the Smart to allow the extra space requirement for the water hoses and the test I've done give me good idea that this battery will not overheat by powering a Smart at 10-15 Kw continuous.


 Water cooling is probably the best solution to keep the perfect temperature of operation for those cells for all people without a Smart or similar lightweight car 



> I've pushed mine to 350 amps, Yabert says they will do more


 Yes, 675A (15C) with good result of power capability.


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

piotrsko, it sounds like you are running these in your EV!



piotrsko said:


> ask the people that have one: modules are 120, 76, 48, 48 vdc. Mcrat and yabert split these, but they come out of the case to do that. Yabert says they don't need water cooling, I haven't tried since I kinda like the module configuration.


So you kept them in their module configuration? How many do you have in series, and did you further parallelize any modules?



piotrsko said:


> Bms leads are Orange leads attached to "worthless" control modules every three cells


Aha, so if I leave the module tops on then THESE will make the connections to the cell tabs, and I can use the existing wiring for my own BMS? Incidentally, which BMS are you using?



piotrsko said:


> I've pushed mine to 350 amps, Yabert says they will do more, BUT I Only use 5 gallon camping water jug and a cheap pump for cooling
> 
> They are 18 kWh at my charge levels with 12 kWh useable


What is your charger? What vehicle are you running them in? 

Thanks,


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

120 and 76 series, 98 modules in series, both sets then parallel 48s6p 192 @ 90 ah. Connected with 00 wire, didn't trust oem.
Oops meant 98 volts in first post not 48

Sorry Yabert, thought you did away with modules and repackaged them.

Elcon 2000 curve 520 stop at 196v.

No bms haven't been convinced by any arguments either way after perhaps 10 years hobby lipo use 

Orange wires connect to tabs but in a 3s3p configuration. I like the tab cover concept so I'm keeping them intact. Everything else is going.


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

piotrsko said:


> 120 and 76 series, 98 modules in series, both sets then parallel 48s6p 192 @ 90 ah. Connected with 00 wire, didn't trust oem.
> Oops meant 98 volts in first post not 48.


I don't see how this adds up. From what I understand (from this video) there are seven 48v modules and two 24v modules. It looks like these are then packaged into three groups: 

(48+24+48+48) = 168v
(24+48+48) = 120v
(48+48) = 96v

Or do I have this wrong?

But I can see how you can get 192v of course, by grouping the two 24v modules in series you now have eight 48v modules. Put them into parallel pairs and the four pairs in series.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

What you call modules really are not. They are part of what I will call blocks and don't seperate since the manifolds for coolant only have connectors on the ends and that is how the bms and other wiring / mounting assembly hardware is set up. There are tags saying 2kWh, 3 kWh, 4 kWh. I don't recall there being feed through hardware to attach cables for the smaller kWh modules.

I don't want to pull the @$#%¢ !! cover off again.

Look at the 2012 chevy volt discussion by mcrat in this sub forum for pictures and better descriptions.


----------



## Markijohn (Feb 7, 2014)

Just received my pack today! It was damaged from the apparent head on collision this car endured, but I got it for a great price, and the voltages all check good. Second pic shows the car the pack will be going in 

Feel free to ask any questions, I'll answer if I can.


----------



## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

How much did they want for the damaged pack?


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Markijohn said:


> Second pic shows the car the pack will be going in


Nice donor car!
And do you have the motor/controller combo to fully exploit the potential of this battery (+ 280Kw)?


----------



## Markijohn (Feb 7, 2014)

esoneson said:


> How much did they want for the damaged pack?


They asked me what I would pay. I should have taken that opportunity to REALLY low ball them because I'm pretty sure they would have taken anything I offered since they knew nothing about these packs and were more worried about how to dispose of the "bad" pack. Though, I offered them $500 + shipping, and they took it. Shipping was $325 delivered to my driveway. So I'm into this pack for a whopping $825. I think I got a smoking deal


----------



## Markijohn (Feb 7, 2014)

Yabert said:


> Nice donor car!
> And do you have the motor/controller combo to fully exploit the potential of this battery (+ 280Kw)?


That is yet to be determined. The controller I have is a modified forklift controller I believe. It was built by a guy from Cincinnati Ohio who had a company there for awhile, but then sold it to another company out in CA. I forget the company names off the top of my head as I haven't looked at the controller in a while. 

The motor is out of the Chrysler EPIC minivan from the 90's. It was rated at like 100HP or something, but I'm fairly certain it can exceed that. I need to look that back up as well (again, it has been a while since I looked at my drive-line).

If anyone is interested, this 'donor' is actually one of the vehicles from the Formula Lightning racing series from the late 90's early 2000's. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Lightning

And the team from West Virginia still has their webpage for their car up, though doesn't look like they've played with it in a while:
http://www.csee.wvu.edu/formula/

I acquired this car because I went to Ohio University and revived this out of storage back in the day. When the opportunity came up that OU needed to "relocate" the car due to no place to store it, I was able to acquire the vehicle for "testing" purposes. It was agreed that the car is mine until I'm "done testing with it"  - thereby no money was exchanged.

I will start a build thread/intro thread sometime soon to give background and detail on the car/racing series/my experiences/ etc...


----------



## MitchJi (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Yabert,



Yabert said:


> Hi
> The chevy Volt battery can easily be split in different configuration only by moving screwed bus bar because it consist of individual pack of 12S 3P (one 12s is actually two 6s 3P)
> So, with those 8 packs of 12S you can build: 12S 24P (45v 360Ah), 24S 12P (90v 180Ah), 48S 6P (180v 90Ah) or 96S 3P (360v 45Ah).
> 
> ...


The following discussion of your post took place here: 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=60460&start=100#p940142


> This guy also has the misguided view that the parallel 3P sections have to be attached by a substantial conductor and that is not true. the parallel conductor can be very insubstantial and in fact i would argue that it is clear it should be small enuff to fuse if the 3P on one side failed and shorted so the parallel link would open and reduce the amount of power delivered to the short in total...





> I think he was planning on running 10C to 15C, with one set of charge and discharge cables.
> 
> And you are talking about running two sets of charge and discharge cables, one for each string? If so, I think your plan is better. You gain the advantages of having parallel cells (mainly a simplified BMS), and the cables between the Cells only need to be big enough to keep two groups of 45A Cells balanced.
> 
> ...


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

hmmmm, to make a 48s6p you need to connect the actual tabs of the cells within a module to those of an adjoining module, right? (As opposed to using the existing terminals.) How best to do that, I'm not sure (any suggestions?).

I'm thinking something like the attached, four of these in series...


----------



## wsv3424 (Apr 3, 2011)

saw the post re: volt packs for home conversions ...peaked my interest , son let 24, 6v 232ah deep cycle marine red tops sulfate past point of no return. Left w/24 w/less than 1v per cell so any help stepping up to a better set up would be great if my charger ,controller etc will suffice. Anyone w/a conversion similar pls. give me some advice and a way to get my size 11 out of my boys ...well you get the picture .


----------



## Krash.32766 (Nov 29, 2020)

halestorm said:


> piotrsko, it sounds like you are running these in your EV!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dave I’m having some trouble figuring out what Charger and BMS to use on my build. I have 2013 Chevy Volt batteries. I have 6-72v packs in parallel. What would you recommend for Charger, BMS and algorithm? I’m new and stuck on this part. Thanks


----------



## halestorm (Apr 28, 2009)

Krash.32766 said:


> I have 2013 Chevy Volt batteries. I have 6-72v packs in parallel. What would you recommend for Charger, BMS and algorithm?


I see I need to update my evalbum profile to reflect my "new" charger. A few years ago I switched to the newer model 6.6KW UHF CAN bus charger. I made that decision because they appeared to be beefier and so far I've not been disappointed. My Volt batteries are arranged for 216v so I purchased the HK-J-H440-20 which provides 110-440VDC output. I picked this one rated for more than I need because it's better to operate in that regime rather than at the extreme; it means it always stays cool which should help extend its life. It was not inexpensive in cost but I believe it was a great value. I see they have a model HK-J-H132-64 that provides 34-132VDC output which might be good for you.

Get ahold of Sayyed Bashir at Elcon and he'll help you select a charger; he's always been very helpful to me.

This may not be an issue for you, but another factor in my selecting a charger was the CAN bus, which I needed to be able to control the charger. I've also upgraded the car to a J1772 connector and in order to plug in to public chargers you have to conform to the J1772 standard protocol. The Modular EV Power ACV2 that you see commercially available will only trick the EV supply equipment (EVSE) into turning on. I tried one of these at first but realize that part of the J1772 standard is communication in which the EVSE tells the charger how much it's willing to supply. If the charger tries to draw more, then the EVSE can deny the power and shut down. That's the problem I ran into with the ACV2. Honestly, I don't know how other people are getting away with it other than they are lucky or I am unlucky to find public charging stations which throttle their supply. So to get around this I designed my own, "smart" equivalent of an ACV2; it performs all the J1772 standard communication with the charge supply equipment and also talks to the charger via CAN bus so that the charger doesn't draw more than the supply equipment says it will supply.

Lastly, you asked about BMS. I can tell you what I use, which is the Elithion Lithiumate Pro BMS. I've not always been incredibly happy with it but it's the only thing I've used and they are expensive enough that once you commit to buying one it's just too much to try another. So maybe there's something better, maybe this is the best, I don't know. It's what I bought and it's all I know. Don't get me wrong, it works, and now that I have it working it seems to be doing it's job very well but it was a struggle to get here. It certainly has a lot of features.

The biggest problem I had with the Elithion is the following. On each cell board is a balancing resistor. When it needs to balance a cell it dumps current through this resistor which is a tiny surface mount resistor, which is likely under-rated for its job. What I found was that these resistors were coming loose! Some were physically loose (as in, you could see it hanging there by one pad). Others appeared to be connected but had poor electrical contact. All boards arrived OK but after just one or two uses they would fail in this manner. I looked at the failed cell boards under a microscope (at work). They didn't appear to be cold solder joints, but instead, the solder on the used boards appeared to have a "rough" broken appearance. All of the new spare cell boards appeared OK. I showed them to an electrical engineer where I work at Caltech and his theory was that it looked like work hardening, possibly due to the CTE difference between the resistor (ceramic, low CTE) and the board (high CTE) so the circuit board around the balancing resistor could be expanding/contracting with each thermal cycle, relative to the resistor.

To test this theory I purchased some material which was thermally conductive but electrically insulative (had the "feel" of a rubbery silicone). I cut tiny rectangles from this material, stuck one on each SMT balancing resistor, and mounted the cell boards to an aluminum plate so the "rubber" pads stuck to the balancing resistors contacted the plate. This was done as a way to provide a heat sink for the balancing resistors. Prior to this I had dozens of repeated failures. After this I've not had a single failure in over four years.

The other thing with Elithion is that they are extremely fair with their time. This means that once your warranty period runs out they charge you for every minute that they spend with you, including the time to read and respond to your email.

You mentioned algorithm; I don't use an algorithm. I followed this advice and let the BMS handle everything.

Dave


----------

