# [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and smoke ?



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Isn't that sort of like asking which is sexier, redheads or blondes?

No, on second thought, it's more like joining redheads.com and asking the
above question there.

>
> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about
> to
> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>
> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've
> also
> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>
> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car
> and
> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>
> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
> sexy/desireable ?
>
> Thanks
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I know that I hate travelling on the electric main line trains, when I get
one with the old InterCity 125 with it's highly turbocharged diesel engines
front and rear (2,200hp each I think from memory) the brief puff of smoke as
the engine throttles up and then the absolute HOWL as the turbo becomes a
screeching banchee and the engine takes on a really meaty note and you feel
the real push of acceleration from the electric traction motors. It never
fails to make me smile.

On the electric train, it's linear acceleration, and it goes okay, but
that's it. Definitely not exciting. I suppose if I could hear the turbines
at the power station which are generating the electric I might be a bit more
impressed ;-)

I have never been a steam engine man. But I can fully appreciate why some
are.

Greg.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of me2
Sent: 16 April 2008 21:49
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and
smoke ?


I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about to
build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
thinking about ICE versus EV things.

I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've also
noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
an ICE. I find this all very interesting.

But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car and
(motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.

So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
sexy/desireable ?

Thanks
-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-
and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

No, I don't think an EV is equivalent to ICE as western society
traditionally think of sexy/desirable.

I would equate a person's *need* to be impressed w/ a big loud engine to
their lack of environmental consciousness (one might even go so far as to
say their lack of an IQ). I grew up in the "South" in the 80s near Bristol,
TN raceway where I went to many NASCAR and NHRA events as a kid. I don't
have much expectation that even 1% of the people that go to those events
would have even the slightest understanding that a car need not be big or
loud in order to have incredible performance.

We seem wired to primitively respect power only if it comes with a thunder
and boom. Silent power is beyond many people's ability to appreciate
(admittedly, even EVs are not exactly 100% silent...their power is just
muted). I equate this to humans having evolved being awed by natural
thundering and booming phenomenons, and in the past few thousand years w/
the obvious power of galloping stampedes (of which the literal term
horse-power is coined).

It will take much convincing to change the mass' belief that a vehicle need
not have a big loud engine that spews flames and roars a sonic boom.

Pv



> me2 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am a motor head. I have the opposite feelings you think I would have. Since I have been working on ICE my entire life tweaking, breaking, rebuilding and upgrading I find the simplicity of the EV quite interesting and appealing. It is so elegant and clean it was like a slap on the head "I could have had a V8!" (no pun intended).

The movie of the 10 second electric motorcycle that was posted the other day blew me away! I Wanted to hear the electric motorcycle and hated that the ICE crotch rocket drowned out the electric motor sound.

I really think *most* motor head's are about tweaking that last few seconds out of a drag run or lap around a road course. Whether they are tweaking a V8 or Electric Engine I honestly don't think it matters to most motor heads. Maybe I am wrong.

I can't wait to build one and take it to my local Autocross club, or car show. I am sure there will be laughs and comments, but when they see the performance that is possible they will not be laughing for long. They will be asking questions about it and wanting more information.

I think what has kept me away from EV's the entire time was the stereo type of they are all slow golf cart looking things that would get crushed in an impact by an ICE SUV. Once I discovered that you can take a regular car/truck and swap out the ICE of Electric I was hooked!

I can't wait for battery technology to catch up. It will really make things interesting.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of me2
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and smoke ?


I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about to
build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
thinking about ICE versus EV things.

I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've also
noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
an ICE. I find this all very interesting.

But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car and
(motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.

So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
sexy/desireable ?

Thanks
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, you could build a wild looking EV, which I would call Transformer. It 
is all built out of brush magnesium steel alloy that is very thin temper 
alloy. There would be no wheel wells, but a very sharp belt line that goes 
around the vehicle.

As it comes up to the line, all the fenders, door panels, and rear and front 
deck are folded in ward making it look like a cubical, exposing all the 
working parts.

As it continues up the line, it is making a low humming pulsing sound with a 
light band just below the belt line which is also pulsing in brightens in 
several bands of colors.

At the line, the vehicle fold out in a very stream line shape, which would 
be sharp enough to cut yourself.

Now the EV starts to increase the pulsating sound with the light band 
pulsating in tune with the sound, so load, it makes the observer back up 
some.

At the maximum high frequency sound and light flashing so bright, it starts 
to blind anyone looking at it, and then when the lights go green, it moves 
out at warp speed, laying down a path of flames behind some very wide tires 
which blows everybody hair back.

And disappears in a cloud of smoke.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "me2" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and 
smoke ?


>
> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about 
> to
> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>
> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've 
> also
> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>
> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car 
> and
> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>
> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
> sexy/desireable ?
>
> Thanks
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Given time, yes.

It used to be that men and women who smoked were considered more 
desirable - more "cool", more like movie stars.

I expect that eventually burning gasoline in your car will be on a par 
with smoking. Those that can't give up the addiction are sidelined to 
the shrinking "smoking section" and are viewed with annoyance and pity 
rather than envy.



> me2 wrote:
> 
> > So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
> > acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds like a good use (finally) for those ridiculously loud stereos...play the sounds of a large ICE when you want to impress...and turn it off when you get tired of it...(which guys with hot rod ICE's cannot do and keep driving). 

--Randall
Concord, NC 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Roland Wiench <[email protected]>
>Sent: Apr 16, 2008 6:46 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise	and smoke ?
>
>Yes, you could build a wild looking EV, which I would call Transformer. It 
>is all built out of brush magnesium steel alloy that is very thin temper 
>alloy. There would be no wheel wells, but a very sharp belt line that goes 
>around the vehicle.
>
>As it comes up to the line, all the fenders, door panels, and rear and front 
>deck are folded in ward making it look like a cubical, exposing all the 
>working parts.
>
>As it continues up the line, it is making a low humming pulsing sound with a 
>light band just below the belt line which is also pulsing in brightens in 
>several bands of colors.
>
>At the line, the vehicle fold out in a very stream line shape, which would 
>be sharp enough to cut yourself.
>
>Now the EV starts to increase the pulsating sound with the light band 
>pulsating in tune with the sound, so load, it makes the observer back up 
>some.
>
>At the maximum high frequency sound and light flashing so bright, it starts 
>to blind anyone looking at it, and then when the lights go green, it moves 
>out at warp speed, laying down a path of flames behind some very wide tires 
>which blows everybody hair back.
>
>And disappears in a cloud of smoke.
>
>Roland
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "me2" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 2:48 PM
>Subject: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and 
>smoke ?
>
>
>>
>> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about 
>> to
>> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
>> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>>
>> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've 
>> also
>> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
>> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
>> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
>> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
>> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>>
>> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
>> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car 
>> and
>> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
>> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>>
>> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
>> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
>> sexy/desireable ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Very well put! That was the exact analogy I was thinking of! 

Pv



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Given time, yes.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Apr 2008 at 14:46, Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> 
> > I would equate a person's *need* to be impressed w/ a big loud engine to
> > their lack of environmental consciousness (one might even go so far as to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Put a baseball card in the spokes 



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 16 Apr 2008 at 14:46, Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Absolutely! It doesnt matter what it is, people will hot-rod it. Look at
the scooter people. They are hoping up and moding little foot scooters all
over.
And peoples perceptions of the vehicle will change. Just remember: horses
used to be sexy/desireable!

It will take time while all the noise loving folks die out and the next
generation of quite loving folks come of age, but it will happen.

-Jon Glauser
http://www.evalbum.com/555

<quote who="me2">
>
> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about
> to
> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>
> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've
> also
> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>
> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car
> and
> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>
> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
> sexy/desireable ?
>
> Thanks
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Noise is part of what auto racing is about. Noise arouses adrenalin in the
racers, crews and spectators. Racing without the adrenalin rush is rather
bland. Electric racing is exciting but not like it would be if it were 
noisier.

I witnessed a lot of racing, both drags and circle track racing, before I 
saw and
heard my first electric drag races at Woodburn. It seemed strange at first 
to
not hear the usual ear-splitting noise. But after a few races it seemed 
rather
pleasant to concentrate on the races without the distraction of the terrible
noise.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "me2" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and 
smoke ?


>
> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about 
> to
> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>
> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've 
> also
> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are compared
> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be without
> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>
> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car 
> and
> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>
> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
> sexy/desireable ?
>
> Thanks
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Put a baseball card in the spokes 



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 16 Apr 2008 at 14:46, Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Put a baseball card in the spokes 



> EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On 16 Apr 2008 at 14:46, Paul Peavyhouse wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For the general car-owning public, this is a red herring. If you're talking 
about racing, that's another matter. Maybe ICEs will be used in racing for 
many years to come - just for the excitement (if you like it). EVs will 
race too, of course. And, probably there will still be horse races.

But, for the average person on the road, the focus is more on other 
factors - looks, convenience, comfort, practicalnesss. Not very many care 
about noise, judging from the traffic I see. In fact, I'd say most people 
prefer a quiet car - why do the manufacturers go to great lengths to make 
the inside of the vechicle somewhat soundproof? Seldom have I heard a 
complaint that a car is too quiet - from the inside or outside perspective! 
So, not to worry, if we add noise to EVs, it probably will only be due to 
governement regs. 

Peri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Glauser" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 16 April, 2008 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise 
and smoke ?


> Absolutely! It doesnt matter what it is, people will hot-rod it. Look at
> the scooter people. They are hoping up and moding little foot scooters all
> over.
> And peoples perceptions of the vehicle will change. Just remember: horses
> used to be sexy/desireable!
>
> It will take time while all the noise loving folks die out and the next
> generation of quite loving folks come of age, but it will happen.
>
> -Jon Glauser
> http://www.evalbum.com/555
>
> <quote who="me2">
>>
>> I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about
>> to
>> build a high performance EV and thus I have been spending a lot of time
>> thinking about ICE versus EV things.
>>
>> I've really begun to notice how noisy and polluting ICE cars are. I've
>> also
>> noticed how much time and money the hot rodders spend modifying their
>> engines... chips, turbo chargers, air filters, etc. I've really begun to
>> appreciate how COMPLICATED modern internal combustion engines are 
>> compared
>> to an electric motor and how much simpler an electric car could be 
>> without
>> an ICE. I find this all very interesting.
>>
>> But... I've begun to wonder if EVs will be popular with the hot rod crowd
>> and the public in general. Just watch a video clip of the electric car
>> and
>> (motor)cycle drag racers. No revving engine, no loud exhaust, etc. Just
>> quiet efficient power. Its faster, but its so much less climactic.
>>
>> So... do you think an electric vehicle with performance (speed,
>> acceleration, range) equivalent to its ICE brethren will be as
>> sexy/desireable ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Will-electric-vehicles-have-sex-appeal-with-the-noise-and-smoke---tp16733209p16733209.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just asked the four women I'm currently dating and they agree that a well
made electric vehicle is sexier than an equivalent ICE vehicle.
Of course they are women who share my values and are probably not
representative of American woman at large.

Besides, 4 is a statistically insignificant sample of the American
population.
-- 
Michael Shipway



> me2 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > --snip--
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

there will be clicks for a while and some gassers will never want to switch,
but hey I don't do the 4x4 thing either, live and let live, let them pay $6
a gallon, we will see who is cool then.



> me2 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'm not a motor head or hot rodder, but I am a car enthusiast. I'm about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Apr 2008 at 18:56, Peri Hartman wrote:
> 
> > In fact, I'd say most people prefer a quiet car - why do the
> > manufacturers go to great lengths to make the inside of the vechicle
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ummmmmm . . . . NEDRA?

http://www.nedra.com

and check out . . .

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/roadtrip/Hooters

NEDRA is "quietly making noise" in the EV world.

Chip Gribben
NEDRA PR Director
http://www.nedra.com




> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Not quite, remember that ICE's can run (as mine does) on waste cooking oil
and petrol ones can run on ethanol or wood alcohol or gas from recycled
manure from pigs or gas from wood shavings or if your electric is oh so
clean (how is the majority made in the USA again? Here we burn dirty coal,
oil and create nuke waste to power our 'clean' leccy vehicles...)..... Okay
some of these fuels are not mass marketable, but the point is thinking that
an electric motor is 'clean' and thinking an ICE is 'dirty' is a) wrong and
b) simplistic. It depends on the source of your fuel. Hydrogen will power
ICE's just fine, problem is the polluting way we make electric which is
needed to make Hydrogen.

If ICE's become like smoking, that's just plain wrong. There is no
comparison. If using petrol compares to smoking, maybe I can see a link
there. But an ICE was never invented to use petrol, it's just what happened
to be around relatively easily and it was adapted to use it. It was
originally invented to run on peanut oil, a waste product of zero net
carbon.

Greg.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Paul Peavyhouse
Sent: 17 April 2008 00:20
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise
and smoke ?

Very well put! That was the exact analogy I was thinking of! 

Pv



> Doug Weathers <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Given time, yes.
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peter VanDerWal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Isn't that sort of like asking which is sexier, redheads or blondes?
> >
> > No, on second thought, it's more like joining redheads.com and asking the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Greg wrote:
> > If ICE's become like smoking, that's just plain wrong. There is no
> > comparison. If using petrol compares to smoking, maybe I can see a
> > link
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Greg wrote:
> 
> > Not quite, remember that ICE's can run (as mine does) on waste
> > cooking oil
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 16 Apr 2008 at 16:46, Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > At the line, the vehicle fold out in a very stream line shape, which would be
> > sharp enough to cut yourself.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 17 Apr 2008 at 9:04, Greg wrote:
> 
> > the point is thinking that an electric motor is 'clean' and thinking an
> > ICE is 'dirty' is a) wrong and b) simplistic. It depends on the source
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> fins on the quarter panels and spinners on the wheel covers, pedestrians
> really WERE gravely injured by some of these projections. I think at
> least
> the spinners are no longer permitted by law.

I don't think so, spinners came back in fashion a couple years ago and I
still see them on cars today, well...last week.

> Make no mistake, aerodynamics is (are?) crucial on an EV driven at speed,
> but putting anything very pointy or sharp on a machine that hurtles down
> the
> road at 70mph is pretty risky, IMO.
>

Not to mention the fact that, at the relatively slow speeds of
automobiles, smooth and round is more aerodynamic than sharp and pointy.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for pointing out the few posts that contained those comments
David.... 

I don't think it's quite fair to say I am not interested in EV's because I
made some efficiency comments. I was hoping to be wrong and have learned a
few things already, like about the drag bike. How will I know unless I
comment or ask?

I though I had made some good posts re aerodynamics, weight, efficiency and
the bits about cars that I am familiar, I am not familiar with EV's which is
why I'm here.

On the biofuel and other forums I get annoyed when people call EV's
'disabled vehicles' and 'bloody dangerous silent killers that leave you
stranded 10 miles from home'. EV's, I'm convinced, have good use. So I
would pipe up and defend them. I'm a bit disappointed when I'm here to see
what would appear at first glance a similarly small attitude toward ICE. I
similarly made a few points defending it and sorry if that was not allowed
in the list. I'm glad the biofuel and other lists allow me to defend EV's
because I think that when people confine thinking inside of a 'one size fits
all' box it doesn't help development. That said, I can understand that you
want the list to be kept to EV development only, which is fair enough, I
didn't know that.

I'm not ready to leave just yet because I'm still stuck on my hybrid (or
fully EV, if it can be done) project but you are admin so I'm sure you know
how to work the buttons if you don't want me here lol.

Meantime as you point out this is an EV list and you are quick to list some
of the 'can do' features, so perhaps you can give me some advice:

I travel 150 miles to London, have to spend about 50 miles travelling round
it over a 3 day period and then travel 150 miles back. I need to do 70mph
on the motorway. That's 350 miles minimum range. I have no access to
electric while there (or fuel, I make my own at home for ICE) as visiting
clients and parked on pavement. I'm thinking of doing it in a little C1
scooter BMW and don't like the mpg from the petrol engine so wanted to make
it an EV, I can get hold of one with a busted engine cheap and am a skilled
mechanic who can fabricate, or farm out as needed.

BUT - and as you pointed out I don't seem to know what I'm talking about - I
was of the belief that EV's can't hack that kind of range or performance.
So I was thinking of a hybrid with a diesel generator with an efficient
single speed diesel engine driving a hub motor. But so far people seem to
think the motor will be $20k and the efficiency will be worse than a 'rubber
band' old cvt transmission.

If anyone can think of a way I can go EV or Hybrid in a way that's better
than the old ICE that no one seems to like, I'm all ears. That=92s why I
joined, because I want to do this project. Sadly I don't have infinite
funds though, infinite funds would buy a lot of vegoil fuel for an ICE
diesel at 180mpg and 20p/litre cost and work out false economy. But I
really would like to give EV or Hybrid a go for various reasons, so it's not
all about =A3=A3's.

Hope that wasn't a rant!
Greg.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: 17 April 2008 17:55
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise
and smoke ?



> On 17 Apr 2008 at 9:04, Greg wrote:
> 
> > the point is thinking that an electric motor is 'clean' and thinking an
> > ICE is 'dirty' is a) wrong and b) simplistic. It depends on the source
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> I travel 150 miles to London, have to spend about 50 miles travelling
> round
> it over a 3 day period and then travel 150 miles back. I need to do 70mph
> on the motorway. That's 350 miles minimum range. I have no access to
> electric while there (or fuel, I make my own at home for ICE) as visiting
> clients and parked on pavement. I'm thinking of doing it in a little C1
> scooter BMW and don't like the mpg from the petrol engine so wanted to
> make
> it an EV, I can get hold of one with a busted engine cheap and am a
> skilled
> mechanic who can fabricate, or farm out as needed.
>
> BUT - and as you pointed out I don't seem to know what I'm talking about -
> I
> was of the belief that EV's can't hack that kind of range or performance.

The performance is easy, lots of EVs can meet the performance specs. Even
my pickup with 20 year old technology and cheap lead-acid batteries is
capable of 70 mph (eventually)
The range is the hard part. It's not practical with lead-acid batteries. =

The only practical battery that is available is one of the Lithium
thecnologies and you'd have to have REALLY deep pockets to buy enough of
them to reach that range, I'm sure that bloke over there with the funny
ears could afford it.

> So I was thinking of a hybrid with a diesel generator with an efficient
> single speed diesel engine driving a hub motor. But so far people seem to
> think the motor will be $20k and the efficiency will be worse than a
> 'rubber
> band' old cvt transmission.

I think you missunderstood. Hub motors can be extreemly efficient. They
are also extreemly expensive. I've not heard of a car size one that only
costs $20k. The ones I've come across are designed for very light
vehicles (solar race cars, maybe 1,000 lbs). They used to cost about $25K
10 years ago, they've probably gone up in cost since.

Even bicycles don't use the type of hub motor you're envisioning. As far
as I know all of the bicycle hub motors use an internal set of gears.
If you're going to have gears anyway, then there is very little point in
putting them inside the hub on a full size EV. Move the motor and the
gears outside the wheel and drive it with a drive shaft. Just as
efficient and avoids all of the problems with size, handling, cooling,
etc.

Finally, if most of your driving is done on the highway, then a series
hybrid is NOT the best solution. You have to take your power/energy and
convert it from mechanical motion to electricity (loosing a least 10%,
probably more) and then convert the electricity back to mechanical motion
(loosing another 10%).

Series hybrids work best when your load varies a lot (stop and go traffic,
up and down hills, etc) then you can use an ICE that is sized to meat your
average power requirements rather than your maximum.
With continuous highway driving, your maximum power requirements and
average power requirements are almost the same. They are close enough
that the double conversion losses overwelm the gains from running a
smaller motor at it's max efficiency point.

For your needs I'd say a combination parallel/series hybrid would be
better. Use an ICE large enough to almost meet your power requirements on
the highway, directly coupled to the wheels (through a typical
transmission) and supplement it with the E-motor for passing, hills, etc. =

Hook a generator head to the ICE so you can also recharge your batteries
as needed. Use the E-motor for around town driving and run the ICE
periodically as needed to recharge.

Of course this will probably generate more pollution than a typical car
unless you put a LOT of time and energy into making sure you scrub the
ICE's exhaust. This is not as trivial as most people seem to think. For
example, you can't just slap any old catalytic converter on any ICE. They
have to be matched, to big a cat and it never gets hot enough to work and
will just get plugged up, if the cat is to small it will overheat and melt
down.

> If anyone can think of a way I can go EV or Hybrid in a way that's better
> than the old ICE that no one seems to like, I'm all ears. That=92s why I
> joined, because I want to do this project. Sadly I don't have infinite
> funds though, infinite funds would buy a lot of vegoil fuel for an ICE
> diesel at 180mpg and 20p/litre cost and work out false economy. But I
> really would like to give EV or Hybrid a go for various reasons, so it's
> not
> all about =A3=A3's.

A typical EV motor and controller, that runs about 80% efficient and
produces up to 60 hp, will run you about $4k (new). If you want more
power or higher efficiency then you'll have to pay more, efficiency in
particular is expensive. Bump it up to 90-94% and you're looking at
$7k-$10k and we are NOT talking hub motors here, this will be a large
(150lbs) motor that wants to spin fast, up to 10-12K rpm. If you want to
build a lower RPM motor with higher efficiency, it gets expensive, if you
want to make it lightweight too (hub motor) it gets REALLY expensive.

Now add in $2k for cheap golf cart batteries that will get you 30-50 miles
range. And copper aint cheap either, you'll pay around $10 a foot for
2/0 cable and $4-$5 per terminal lug.
Just a typical conversion with 30-50 miles range can easily set you back
$8-10k in parts alone.

We frequently gets folks joining the list with unrealistic expectations,
especially when it comes to cost, and some of the old timers can get a bit
snippy.
We get folks that want to build RVs that can go 70 miles per day on solar
power alone, oh and it needs to cost less than $5,000 including the RV.
Or folks that want mega efficient series hybrids for dirt cheap. I mean
seriously, if it was cheap to build something like that, don't you think
hundreds of people would already be driving around in them?

EVs are a great solution to many peoples needs, but they are NOT the
solution to every problem. This is especially true if extreme low cost is
your primary consideration.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I have autocrossed with three car clubs, do cruises with a muscle car club, have drag raced, and have run on the Salt Flats. You would be amazed how many of those guys with "a big loud engine" know about the Tesla, or know about the Killacycle, and most importantly enjoy learning about electric car technology. They'll say things like "We'll all be driving electric eventually."

The "big loud engine" folks are also the kinds of guys that twirl their own wrenches and actually work on their cars -- just the kind of guys that are good potential customers for converting a gas car to electric power. The EVDL (at least those that post up) seems to be (at least until recently, that's another story) disproportionately made up of racers -- yes, racers that used to have loud cars. It's no mystery to me, a car guy that already modifies his car has the skills and confidence to do a conversion. I think this is where the http://www.2ssic.com/ guys have a great idea, they have picked a good demographic.

So next time you come across someone with a "big loud engine" don't think "lack of IQ," think "there's someone more likely to convert to electric!"

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Peavyhouse <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:46:37 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Will electric vehicles have sex appeal with the noise and smoke ?

... I would equate a person's *need* to be impressed w/ a big loud engine to their lack of environmental consciousness (one might even go so far as to say their lack of an IQ). ...





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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> David Dymaxion wrote:
> >
> > So next time you come across someone with a "big loud engine" don't
> > think "lack of IQ," think "there's someone more likely to convert to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That video of Blue Meanie silently gliding down the street; I wouldn't
have it any other way.

http://homepage.mac.com/filmranch/iMovieTheater62.html

It's stealthy. I was at an air show about ten or fifteen years ago
when the B2 made an appearance. It did a low and slow pass. I don't
know what it's stall speed is, but it must have been near it. It was
unreal seeing that plane flying so low and slow, and it was silent on
the approach and very quiet on the pass.

There is some later footage in that video of White Zombie and 2SSIC
driving down the street together and it is surreal! I wish my turbo
Mustang was that quiet...

Those clean quiet EV's are the future.

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