# 2000HP BLDC 215lb 10" motor.



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

So a 1400horsepower EV wasn't enough at Team Lonestar... Here is our 2000HP Lonestar BLDC motor. it is 10" diameter, 14" long, 215lbs.. We have a direct bolt up to a Lenco CS2 automatic transmission. Motor will be fed 7200amps across 8 phases. Dyno work shows about 95-97% efficiency. This is over 550lbs lighter than our DC Series quad system with overdrive that only made 1400HP and was sort of self destructive at 8000amps.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

That is, wow, so AC is moving in on 1/4 mile machines?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

dcb said:


> That is, wow, so AC is moving in on 1/4 mile machines?


Well, I am not using a commercially available system and converting it to make 2000HP. I had to find someone to help me build one that is purpose built for drag racing.
Look at trying to do this with Rhinehart and AM Racing stuff... Lots of money.

well this isn't cheap either....

This motor really has standing one mile written all over it too.....


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## Karter2 (Nov 17, 2011)

Interesting that you are still committed to a 2 speed trans !


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

so I don't mean to pry, but BLDC because more area under the curve I recon vs sine? 8 phases, because again less inductance and more area under the curve (and a nod to smaller torque ripples)? Very interesting.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Karter2 said:


> Interesting that you are still committed to a 2 speed trans !


Three speed.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

dcb said:


> so I don't mean to pry, but BLDC because more area under the curve I recon vs sine? 8 phases, because again less inductance and more area under the curve (and a nod to smaller torque ripples)? Very interesting.


"DCB", what's that stand for?

Yes you are right on.....

Prior to this incarnation.....
We investigated building a 1000HP ACIM drive and a convert a ACIM motor. We just couldn't make the HP without two LARGE AC motors. nearly 600lbs and that was only 1000HP.
I actually have a nice 1000HP ACIM inverter built, but the motors were heavy and just couldn't meet my performance goals. 

The BLDC motor drive system is so much simpler, (the capacitor reduction alone is amazing) The short duration motor power to weight ratio, is about 4:1 better than DC series. (less torque at 0 rpm thus the three speed)
but Yes, the designer of the motor is a big fan of the high phase count, simpler on/off switching at much lower PWM freq. We expect the efficiency alone is going to save us battery 400Horsepower and turn it into actual rear wheel horsepower.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

OH BTW, 2000HP is not it's continuous rating it is it's drag racing duty rating. A new term I will have to start clarifying.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

So 8 phases is 8 half bridges firing with a 45° phase offset? I guess no sine modulation but simple square waves?

Amazing, subscribing.

Any info on your AC build? Was that with the kit?


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

you may need like 8 *full* bridges to get full reversal (push and pull) on each phase, once you get past 3 phases IIRC.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

jhuebner said:


> So 8 phases is 8 half bridges firing with a 45° phase offset? I guess no sine modulation but simple square waves?
> Amazing, subscribing.
> Any info on your AC build? Was that with the kit?


Simple square waves, huge efficiency increase.....

The 1000HP AC project using your kit got to about 10HZ and we extrapolated out the power and the size of the capacitor bank and the weight of the motor needed, and it just wasn't competitive to what we were seeing from the power to weight ratio of BLDC. And I think you will see when this is complete, the power of 2000HP to roughly 200lbs is going to be about 10HP/lb, that is simply hard to touch......

The 1000HP AC project with your kit inside is with Adam Clark, who thinks it could still work for large trucks. We will keep you informed if we go up to the next level.


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## TerryH (Jun 9, 2012)

Ohhh. Subscribed.


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

yah half bridges are fine if accounted for. With enough phases you can think of them as commutator bar replacements  and you can use a ring topology for series current (x2) or star for "massively" parallel (think lap winding with a brush per commutator bar, it is counter-intuitive to delta-wye as more phases means more parallel paths in star). The latter (star)definitely sounds like a solid approach for thousands of amps in an ac machine (each switch only has to handle 1/8 of the total current).


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## electron bom (Dec 4, 2014)

John Metric said:


> that only made 1400HP


Bahahahahahaha


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

New photo of motor


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Does this have any active cooling or just passive? I would be curious to know what the continuous hp rating would be for a motor that size. I would suspect it would be enough to keep a small car cruising down the hwy...

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

It would be enough to push a battle tank on the highway. I don't think there is enough metal in a small car to even hold it in place.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

piotrsko said:


> It would be enough to push a battle tank on the highway. I don't think there is enough metal in a small car to even hold it in place.


I imaging the duty cycle is similar to a series DC on this, depending on the cooling means, if there is any. If it's a closed case with no active cooling (this wouldn't surprise me on a drag motor) then it may not be good for much more than 40hp continuous. Still that would be enough for a larger sized car to hold a steady hwy speed. 

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here it is mounted in Panic in Detroit.


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## jhuebner (Apr 30, 2010)

It's so tiny, unbelievable. Hope to see it running soon.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: 2000HP BLDC 215lb 10" motor. 100C Continuous Lithium Ion*

Here is the data sheet on our new cell we are switching over to.


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## ICEICEbaybee (Jan 28, 2017)

Very nice!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

jwiger said:


> Does this have any active cooling or just passive? I would be curious to know what the continuous hp rating would be for a motor that size. I would suspect it would be enough to keep a small car cruising down the hwy...


The motor has two large ports for liquid cooling on top. Our calculations are that it will not need cooling for a 7 second run.
The continuous liquid cooled HP rating is a function of the cooling system. We haven't gotten around to testing that yet.
We calculate the "continuous" "un-liquid-cooled" "highway" "properly geared" "full voltage pack of proper size" horsepower is around 100HP, this requires ambient air cooling blown across the motor and the 32 6AWG power leads.
Should be enough to make any car roll down the highway.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

John Metric said:


> Should be enough to make any car roll down the highway.


You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention. 


Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: 2000HP BLDC 215lb 10" motor. 100C Continuous Lithium Ion*



John Metric said:


> Here is the data sheet on our new cell we are switching over to.


John, I thought the 20c/100c line meant 20c cells tested at 100c? Or do I have it backwards?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Nope, I have it backwards... 😀


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## rmay635703 (Oct 23, 2008)

John Metric said:


> "DCB", what's that stand for?


Bucket, we dont speak of this

The old saying you can't ...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

John Metric said:


> Here it is mounted in Panic in Detroit.


SO what pictures can't be posted more than six months now? Where did the picture go from the above post?


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

John Metric said:


> SO what pictures can't be posted more than six months now? Where did the picture go from the above post?


I know that some of the hosting sites want to charge now for 3rd party use. I believe there are work arounds but I don't know what they are.


Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## dcb (Dec 5, 2009)

you can also attach them (and add an image to the attachment link) but no resizing options here. or imgur works too.

i.e.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

John Metric said:


> SO what pictures can't be posted more than six months now? Where did the picture go from the above post?





Frank said:


> I know that some of the hosting sites want to charge now for 3rd party use.


The recent one is Photobucket. The pictures are still in Photobucket, but the link in the forum won't work.



Frank said:


> I believe there are work arounds but I don't know what they are.


I use the "photobucket embed fix" plug-in in Chrome.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

John,

Are we ever going to see an update? Been wondering about it.

major


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Here is a video of our new car we call "Extinction Level Event" first time at the track.
We spun the tires on each try. Mainly due to the car weight coming in way below our most optimistic numbers at 1520lbs. We expect to add another 75lbs of battery for a final weight of 1600lbs. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ls8ODYHh4

More to follow


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

I do most of my posting on Facebook. But I'll put a few details here. 
Here is a weight comparison between Extinction and Panic. 

https://m.facebook.com/LonestarEVRa...7712189084/1524280340958808/?type=3&source=54


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

We are taking the transmission out as we have blown two Lenco's up already.
We figure 1350ftlbs times a new 3.50 rear end gear would be 4725ftlbs of torque on the rear axle. That should be plenty for a 1500lb car.
The motor will be pushed all the way to the back, with just a short coupler to go directly into the differential.


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## LocuL (Dec 3, 2016)

Killer setup


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## SpeedRacer93 (Apr 22, 2018)

Any updates from the summer of racing?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Spent the summer, re-engineering the drivetrain for the new low weight.
I went from a car that made 1300HP at 2750lbs to one that makes 2000HP at 1550lbs. The gearing was all wrong. the center of gravity changed. We did nothing but spin the tires on all three attempts. We are close to going back again in about a week. I just need to get out there and finish a few things. Stay tuned.


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm interested in coming out to see the next run(s).

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk. -Yeah, a BlackBerry.


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## SpeedRacer93 (Apr 22, 2018)

I am having trouble wrapping my mind around this motor. 

I need to spend more time figuring out the commutation cycle for 8 phases. 

I think I saw you are running 450 Volts pack so that is about 3,300 AMP for the 2,000 HP (1500 KW). Being that a couple phases will be "idle" to air it would be a little over 600 Amps over the 6 AWG leads you are using. Being that you are doing 7-8 second runs lead wires would get hot but may not melt. Again that Drag Race duty cycle. Pushing things beyond their normal limits for a short period. 

But you did say 7,200 amps but that maybe available max battery AMPs.

Not knowing if you are using a Wye or Delta wiring pattern. Unknown stator slots and rotor poles.

So many unknowns, I am excited and crazy at the same time.

Having an engineer mind (really a summer farm kid that went to college) I crave wanting to know how stuff works...LOL


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## coleasterling (Feb 29, 2012)

I'd love to see it up close, as well!


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## Bmmoffat (Nov 14, 2018)

Have u guys looked into super capacitors instead of batteries? Should be a lot lighter, and I would think they would be prefect for a drag run.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Bmmoffat said:


> Have u guys looked into super capacitors instead of batteries? Should be a lot lighter, and I would think they would be prefect for a drag run.


You might be surprised. People tend to be dazzled by supercaps' C rates when the more important metric is power density. Great C rate multiplied by terrible energy density does not necessarily equate to good power density. So even if you build a super cap bank that can output at 600C (what you would need to drain all your energy in a ten second drag race), you would need so many of them to provide the energy you need during those ten seconds that you wouldn't end up with a small pack after all. There are probably no supercaps on the market that could do a drag race with a smaller pack than the batteries that John uses. And that's not even taking into consideration the extra challenge you get from the fact that supercaps have to drop down to 0 Volts to extract all their energy.

Edit: Let's put some numbers in: If you want to output 1 MW for 10 seconds, that's 2.7 kWh or 2777 Wh. The most dense supercap sold by Maxwell has an energy density of 6 Wh/kg, so you would need a 463 kg pack. That's pretty big.


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## Bmmoffat (Nov 14, 2018)

Yea I’ve only heard the benefits of them, I have not used them, thanks for the education!!!


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Hollie Maea said:


> You might be surprised. People tend to be dazzled by supercaps' C rates when the more important metric is power density. Great C rate multiplied by terrible energy density does not necessarily equate to good power density. So even if you build a super cap bank that can output at 600C (what you would need to drain all your energy in a ten second drag race), you would need so many of them to provide the energy you need during those ten seconds that you wouldn't end up with a small pack after all. There are probably no supercaps on the market that could do a drag race with a smaller pack than the batteries that John uses. And that's not even taking into consideration the extra challenge you get from the fact that supercaps have to drop down to 0 Volts to extract all their energy.
> 
> Edit: Let's put some numbers in: If you want to output 1 MW for 10 seconds, that's 2.7 kWh or 2777 Wh. The most dense supercap sold by Maxwell has an energy density of 6 Wh/kg, so you would need a 463 kg pack. That's pretty big.


What she said....
In addition, try to do that calculation again, but keep the voltage above the minimum needed to make 1MW from your motors, say 600VDC. How much storage would you need above that when they start to drain down?


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## Bmmoffat (Nov 14, 2018)

Are they worth it to use in conjunction with batteries to get over the locked rotor current? Maybe in a a drag car that wouldn’t matter but what about a street car?


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## jwiger (Oct 18, 2014)

Bmm, chances are the responses you will get are something along the lines of the money/space/weight could be used for more batteries.


Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk. -Yeah, a BlackBerry.


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## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

Bmmoffat said:


> Are they worth it to use in conjunction with batteries to get over the locked rotor current? Maybe in a a drag car that wouldn’t matter but what about a street car?


In cars, we use variable frequency drives, so locked rotor current isn't a thing.

Locked rotor current is a phenomenon when a fixed voltage source is used to run an induction motor. The motor develops a back EMF that opposes the driving voltage as the speed increases. But when it is not spinning there is no back EMF and the voltage difference across the coils is equal to the power line voltage. This causes large amounts of current to flow until the motor spins up and drops that voltage difference.

With cars, we use a VFD that at low speeds presents a low voltage so that the difference across the coils stays low enough to develop only the current required for the desired torque. The battery current is actually relatively low at this point even if large amounts of current are requested since the duty cycle of the drive is small to keep the voltage low.


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## Bmmoffat (Nov 14, 2018)

Oh interesting, I didn’t realize that the vfds can compensate for locked rotor current as well. With the ammount of stuff the VFD controller can do no wonder they are expensive.


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## Novice-EV (Sep 12, 2015)

Could you post a video of that car running down the track? This sounds like an incredible accomplishment to me!

Drag racing motors are just for drag racing I would guess? Could one be built for road racing with that kind of performance? 

Thanks!


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## SpeedRacer93 (Apr 22, 2018)

Novice-EV said:


> Could you post a video of that car running down the track? This sounds like an incredible accomplishment to me!
> 
> Drag racing motors are just for drag racing I would guess? Could one be built for road racing with that kind of performance?
> 
> Thanks!


Here is a link to one video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ls8ODYHh4

Heat is always going to be an issue at these loads. John talks about drag race duty cycle and that is what he is talking about....pushing the limits of everything because it only lasts 7-10 seconds. 

Not to many 15,000 HP Nitro road race engines and those Nitro drag motors need a full rebuild after just a burn out and a 1000 Ft, 3.6 second run.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

That's a video above, notice I couldn't find the throttle position to make the car hookup. Too much torque.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Any more information or updates on this motor?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

latest pic of the 8 phase motor in my car. Getting ready for track.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

Very cool, is your Racing and technical content posted somewhere, YouTube?


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Bowser330 said:


> Very cool, is your Racing and technical content posted somewhere, YouTube?


I checked out both the website and Facebook page in John's signature, and couldn't find any technical detail for this motor in either. Perhaps John can point us to something?


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

brian_ said:


> I checked out both the website and Facebook page in John's signature, and couldn't find any technical detail for this motor in either. Perhaps John can point us to something?


try my website, www.ampahaulic.com check the motors tab.
here are some details.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Bowser330 said:


> Very cool, is your Racing and technical content posted somewhere, YouTube?


racing videos are on youtube, check out Extinction Level Event.so far, we spin the tires at every throttle level. we are working on the ability to turn it down to take off easy and bring power on easy. "Lonestar EV Performance" on youtube.


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## ishiwgao (May 5, 2011)

John Metric said:


> try my website, www.ampahaulic.com check the motors tab.
> here are some details.


Just to clarify on the pictures, the 1000hp version is just limiting the torque from the 2000hp graph, but both motors are identical?

And from the spec sheet, the cont power is 185kW, so what's the purpose of limiting the power to 1000hp then? I would have assumed it will give a longer duration of "peak" power, but if the cont power is so low, I would guess that 1000hp or 2000hp wouldn't have a big difference in peak power duration


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

John Metric said:


> try my website, www.ampahaulic.com check the motors tab.
> here are some details.


Thanks for the additional detail, John. The nameplate isn't on the amphaulic motor page.



ishiwgao said:


> Just to clarify on the pictures, the 1000hp version is just limiting the torque from the 2000hp graph, but both motors are identical?
> 
> And from the spec sheet, the cont power is 185kW, so what's the purpose of limiting the power to 1000hp then? I would have assumed it will give a longer duration of "peak" power, but if the cont power is so low, I would guess that 1000hp or 2000hp wouldn't have a big difference in peak power duration


The maximum torque is the same in both 1000 HP and 2000 HP graphs; it is just sustained to half the speed (~4000 RPM instead of 8000 RPM) in the lower-power case, I'm guessing that the 2000 HP version is for eight-phase operation, while the 1000 HP version is for four-phase (phases in series pairs).


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## RyanC (Jan 28, 2021)

Curious if you ended up doing any 1/2 mile or standing mile racing with this set up. Pretty inspiring!


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## galderdi (Nov 17, 2015)

Hollie Maea said:


> You might be surprised. People tend to be dazzled by supercaps' C rates when the more important metric is power density. Great C rate multiplied by terrible energy density does not necessarily equate to good power density. So even if you build a super cap bank that can output at 600C (what you would need to drain all your energy in a ten second drag race), you would need so many of them to provide the energy you need during those ten seconds that you wouldn't end up with a small pack after all. There are probably no supercaps on the market that could do a drag race with a smaller pack than the batteries that John uses. And that's not even taking into consideration the extra challenge you get from the fact that supercaps have to drop down to 0 Volts to extract all their energy.
> 
> Edit: Let's put some numbers in: If you want to output 1 MW for 10 seconds, that's 2.7 kWh or 2777 Wh. The most dense supercap sold by Maxwell has an energy density of 6 Wh/kg, so you would need a 463 kg pack. That's pretty big.


Yeah I looked into them also. They can be great for levelling out the peaks. In my case I am calling for 1000 amps for a few seconds and then nothing for a few seconds. I worked out that I would need 3 sets of super caps to start making any difference. I could have lived with it if it required 2 sets but 3 would cost too much, take up too much room and add too much weight. I also saw somewhere someone saying Aluminium/Air batteries will be the next big thing.......Isn't that basically a capacitor.


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

So, after going into production, we ran into a chip shortage for the controllers, 60 week lead times. We are engineering around the problem. Stay tuned.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

Curious as to what you are switching all those amps with? Some neat SiC stuff coming on the market but nowhere near that amount of juice yet


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Good old fahsioned IGBT 900A each phase. When SiC gets to 900A I will consider it.


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

John Metric said:


> When SiC gets to 900A I will consider it.


Ya,I think they are about 550A per module atm. I love the gate drive modules all built into one unit so the power stage is 90% finished before you even start. Just need more amps...


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

Great....if you have $10k...


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah, that is a real neat setup. I will get latest price on those, but I am going to guess it will be triple of my system.
Have you seen a price on those yet?


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## 57Chevy (Jan 31, 2020)

John Metric said:


> Have you seen a price on those yet?


No. It was vaporware last time I looked last year. I had planned spending about 50k developing an inverter but then found that AEM have stuck a Cascadia front end on the Tesla LDU which achieves the same thing for well under 10k for two plus a VCU so was a no brainer. Still uses 1992 era transistors but have a plan to upgrade them later on.

Axiom were making good noises in 2019 using EconoDual IGBTs but seem to have fizzled out. I like their approach of using supplied gate drivers and modules.

1200 for a dual 1200V 600A SiC module is starting to get in the ballpark of useful. Give it a few more years and we'll be there


https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ROHM-Semiconductor/BSM600C12P3G201?qs=gTYE2QTfZfRH2f%2F%2FX1zyeA%3D%3D


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## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

$1200 for 600A single transistor which is not even a half bridge. For 8 full bridges I would need 8phase x 4 per phase to complete my system and it would then be only 600A not 900A. $38,400 just for the transistors. ouch thats over my entire controller price.


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