# Voltsrat



## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

OK ... I'm gonna stick my neck out and report on what I'm building although I know it's pretty unorthodox.

Donor vehicle is '75 VW Bug .. about 1/2 of it anyway. I cut off the top, front and rear aprons and narrowed the body 16" and I'm building a rear subframe from 1 1/2" X 3" .125 wall box tubing. Reverse trike configuration. Inline seating. Rear suspension is a Honda Goldwing swing arm with custom wheel adapter and wheel. Motor is a 32 hp (at 120v) DC forklift motor that I'll be running at 84 volts off 12-volt batteries. Transmission is a 5-speed Harley with belt drive to the Honda drive shaft. No computer control, but (hopefully) a series of solenoids operated by a rotary switch throttle, circuits isolated with transistor "switches". After narrowing the body I channeled it over the chassis 2" and mounted it 6" back from the original location. The front suspension will have 2 1/2" dropped spindles and a 4" adjustable beam. The rear swing arm pivots have been raised 3" from what would have been their "stock" location. The point is, of course, to get the vehicle fairly low but with decent ground clearance for daily driving.

Here's a concept I photoshopped (crappy job, I know) and some construction photos.





































And another photoshopped concept...


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

I think it's cool!

Keep us posted on the progress


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2009)

Very nice concept and project. Nice to see a concept come to life. I like the rendition and think it will be a very cool one off EV.

We will be watching. Please keep new images coming. New updates too. 

Pete : )


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

This looks like a fun car! I look forward to hearing more about it's progress.

I wish I knew how to do body work like that. It'd be fun to be creative with the look of the car.

Keep us posted!


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

I love this idea!!
I have built/rebuilt many VW based vehicles over the past 40 years.
I ride a Harley.
I am planning an EV conversion.

Now, you have come up with a project that embodies all my passions.

Keep it up and go with it. I want you to succeed and show the world that
there is yet another VW based vehicle being born out of ingenuity.

How much do you think that this will weigh with all components on board?

Are you planning a removable hard top?

Seems like the channel in the centre will raise seat height, any concerns there?

Where are you going to jam all those batteries?

In other words, more info please. And we like pictures!

Thanks,

Eric


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

looks awesome to me. Make sure to leave enough room for a prismatic lithium pack down the road....

Unless you've got a lot of hills to contend with I bet you could get away with direct drive via a motorcycle chain with about a 4:1 gear reduction. A perm 132 pancake motor would be powerful enough if geared properly. Those are extremely light for their output capability.

Keep it up and good luck.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

esoneson said:


> I love this idea!!
> I have built/rebuilt many VW based vehicles over the past 40 years.
> I ride a Harley.
> I am planning an EV conversion.
> ...


You sound like a blood brother to me, VW builder/customizer-wise. This is my first "bike", though.

I'm guessing it will be under 1500 lbs. ... hoping for less than that if I can pull it off seeing that the Honda swing arm comes off a bike with a 1,300 lb. GVW and I don't want the MA RMV hassling me for overstressing a part beyond its intended design. Not sure if they'd go that far, but I'm not taking any chances if I can help it.

There probably won't be a top since MA won't register a two-passenger three-wheel vehicle as a motorcycle if it is enclosed. the Corbin Sparrow gets a pass because it's a one-passenger vehicle.

The tunnel is 9" above the pan with the 2" body drop. That's stock seat height, so with a king and queen seat, I'll be adding maybe 2" to 3" on top of that, meaning I will be sitting a little higher in relationship to the body than stock. For this reason, I decided not to section the body as I did on a previous project (I've done a fair amount of VW customizing). The advantage of slightly higher seating will be improved foot room because it repositions your feet ... and the foot well has been shrunk considerably so that's a good thing. I also have the option of notching the tunnel to lower the seat if I decide I need to do that.

I'll need 7 batteries onboard, three up front and four in the rear. Space limitation is why I'm running 84 volts and using 12 volt batteries, but my theory is that with such a light vehicle I can get away wirth that. I'm trying to keep this two-passenger for the rare occasions when my wife rides along (probably at a VW or bike show), but I'll make it a one-passenger vehicle if battery placement requires it (sorry Honey).

And I know I'm breaking EV rules all over the place as this is far from being aerodynamic, has no computer controller, no regenerative braking, and has a fat rear tire. There's just too much hot rodder in me for me to be able to live with a skinny rear tire, so the 5" wide Honda wheel and tire went and a custom made 8" wheel with probably a 245 tire is going in its place. I had to offset the swing arm 1 1/2" to the right to accomplish this. I guess I better keep the pressure up.

So efficiency isn't exactly the goal ... it does have to be cool looking, a 3-wheel electric volksrod with a street rod stance. After all, my primary commute is only 5 miles round trip (city) a day and my ultimate goal is to get to one "distant" meeting a week that is 24 miles round trip. I'll probably never have to go over 50 mph and usually a lot less than that.

Just want to build a light electric vehicle that has a little hot rod feel to it.

I'm on vacation next week and will dedicate a bunch of time to the project, so more photos will be coming.


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## order99 (Sep 8, 2008)

Nice design!

So have you finished the design on the Analog Controller yet? I'm collecting non-computerized versions-My electronics training so far begins and ends with 'don't french-kiss the batteries' and i'm trying to find one I could actually FIX when it breaks. I've got a few Contactor designs on paper thanks to this Forum-and if the Economy ever recovers I might stand a chance of trying them out...

Lots of pictures as you build please?


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

This is soooo COOOL!!! I think this will be a very aerodynamic design, especially if you put foils over the front axle. I am going to enjoy watching this machine grow. Keep up the posts with pix. I think you'll have quite a following on this custom rod! 

_Thanks for sharing it with us!_


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Awesome dude!
How about Suicide Doors to compliment the Hot Rod look?
Auto Lock has a set of '33 Ford Reproduction Hidden Hinges for under $300
I had to modify my hinge bars to match the curve on the Beetle door but it is doable if you weld. And judging from your pics....welding is no problem for you.
Keep it going - Roy


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Voltswagen said:


> Awesome dude!
> How about Suicide Doors to compliment the Hot Rod look?
> Auto Lock has a set of '33 Ford Reproduction Hidden Hinges for under $300
> I had to modify my hinge bars to match the curve on the Beetle door but it is doable if you weld. And judging from your pics....welding is no problem for you.
> Keep it going - Roy



I like the suicide door idea. I do believe there's an outfit that make the hinges specifically for VW, but don't remember who.

I'm on vacation this week so I can get some things done on Voltsrat. The custom rear wheel I had made arrived today along with a dropped spindle/disc brake kit. 

I put some studs in the Chevy-to-Honda wheel adapter I had machined for the trike, then bolted it up.

I painted the wheel Gawdawful Green and had a 235/60/16 tire mounted (an EV sin I know) and mocked up the swing arm. Tomorrow I have to fine tune the setup and tack it in place.

Yeah...I left that C-clamp out in the rain a few times ...


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

I like it too! Some good ideas here. . . especially for the guys like me doing a "conversion" as opposed to a fabrication/design. Will you have any issues with licensing?

Gary


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I like it too! Some good ideas here. . . especially for the guys like me doing a "conversion" as opposed to a fabrication/design. Will you have any issues with licensing?
> 
> Gary



Licensing is the big challenge and the reason why I chose to build a trike instead of a car. Getting a custom built car to pass the MA RMV is really difficult, especially if it's a ground-up build and requires "new car" classification. Motorcycle regulations leave a lot more wiggle room. You do have to keep every receipt for every part used in the construction of the bike.

One of these days I need to visit the RMV and talk with them about my project and ask for their advice so I can be sure I can get it registered when it's done.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Here's the controller design I'm using. I can't take credit for it as it was invented by Mark Thomasson (US patent #6140799) in October of 2000. Mark was kind enough to grant me permission to use it. It's an ingeniously simple design, and very inexpensive I might add. Mark uses it on his EV motorcycle and minibike. His motorcycle controller cost $60. My controller cost $180.

http://www.evalbum.com/518

The part I designed is the transistor switching circuit. Please forgive my lack of "proper" electrical symbols in the diagram, but the little "T's" represent transistor locations. They are switched to the closed position by the upstream current, thus isolating each section of the solenoid circuit as the rotary accelerator switch moves from pole to pole. I know a fair amount about the mechanical aspects of what I'm doing but confess the electric drive and control stuff is new territory, so feel free to comment and steer me in the right direction should I go off the deep end. OK ... it's too late for that.  Still, input is mucho appreciated.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


> Here's the controller design I'm using. ... My controller cost $180.


Hhhhhmmmm, I'm no EE design guy, but it seems that there might be some pretty 'stepped' acceleration as you move thru adding more voltage in large increments... and more importantly, your batteries are guaranteed to become unbalanced as you drive around draining different batteries at any given voltage. That first step is going to be a neck-cracker! 

I don't know enough about how controllers work, but I thought that they preserve motor life by feeding it short bursts of full pack voltage to get low speeds, not stepped voltage. You'll have to get other comments, but I dunno what it will do to your motor to be feeding it very low voltages at low speeds.

As far as cost goes, it looks like you are going to have 6 contactors, and they are not real cheap... still cheaper than a controller, but I dunno if you really want to trust contactors to be opening and closing under heavy loads as that is how they arc and weld themselves together. You've got to remember you are talking about LOTS of amps.

You might wanna consider ponying up $ for a tried and test controller just to be safe.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

fishguts said:


> Here's the controller design I'm using.


Hi fishguts,

Nice artwork. And I like your project. A few things about your control approach. It was nice of you to seek permission to use Mark's patent, but not necessary. If I'm not mistaken, you only infringe when you sell the product using his intellectual property. I'd heard long ago that one of the reasons they published patents in the first place was to allow citizens to use the technology for themselves. That was a few centuries ago before all this corporate greed business.

Back to the technical aspects. This system may work well for Mark at 48 volts and lower and on smaller vehicles. As you go to 84 volts and higher currents, you will see a lot more arcing on the contactors when they open. Cheap ones may not survive long.

And an obvious downside to the design is the uneven discharge of the batteries. Your range will be determined by the battery which is used the most. How can you tell when you have discharged that particular battery being unsure which one it is for a particular driving cycle? Are you going to monitor each of the batteries?

And then there is charging. With uneven discharges, you will need at least 3 chargers. But you could use modular charging, where each 12 volt battery is charged independently. They sell chargers which do this in 2, 3 and 4 bank versions.

Anyway, nice project. In the long run, I suspect you will have spent more money, and obviously more time, than biting the bullet and buying a PWM controller. But you will gain a lot of wiring experience 

Good luck with it.

major


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback ... which is why I'm on here. I do want to come up with something that works ... and I can afford.

I didn't think 12 volts would provide a neck-snapping start. It just doesn't seem likely with a 120 volt motor. But if that's the case I may need to re-think this.

It seemed to me that the way the scheme moves between battery banks, it does a pretty good job of distributing the load, not completely even like a controller would do, but decent enough maybe?

I did assume I'd use three battery chargers.

I have 500 amp momentary/100 amp continuous duty solenoids for this setup. Shouldn't they be able to handle the amps without arcing? 

My investment thus far is $120.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

fishguts said:


> I have 500 amp momentary/100 amp continuous duty solenoids for this setup. Shouldn't they be able to handle the amps without arcing?


What is the voltage rating of the contacts (not the coil)?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


> I didn't think 12 volts would provide a neck-snapping start. It just doesn't seem likely with a 120 volt motor.


remember that electric gives high torque right from 0 rpm. without modulation, that first step is going to be like a beginner driver popping the clutch....



fishguts said:


> It seemed to me that the way the scheme moves between battery banks, it does a pretty good job of distributing the load, not completely even like a controller would do, but decent enough maybe?


maybe.... but also will be very hard on the batteries, and performance will be affected by whichever bank has the lowest voltage at any given moment.



fishguts said:


> I have 500 amp momentary/100 amp continuous duty solenoids for this setup. Shouldn't they be able to handle the amps without arcing?


The contactors should be sized to handle max continuous your motor will pull. They will spark as they open/close no matter what; and with your design they will be sparking every time you move the throttle, building up heat on the contactor surface, pitting, and my guess is way higher chance of getting welded together than a typical use where they close once when you key-on the system.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

fishguts said:


> I didn't think 12 volts would provide a neck-snapping start. It just doesn't seem likely with a 120 volt motor. But if that's the case I may need to re-think this.


When I put the motor in my car, many moons ago, I was eager to see if the car would actually move. We wired up the motor and put a battery between the passenger's legs. With a nod from the guy behind the wheel, the passenger jammed the welding cable onto the lugs, and away we went. It sure was a lot of fun. But, the control was anything but smooth. My car is extremely light (and even lighter with no batteries) and yours will probably be much lighter. I don't think it will be good for your drivetrain, or neck, to employ such a jerky starting system long term.

There are cheap homemade controller designs out there. Ones that do PWM even. If you don't have the dough for a controller, you might have to practice your soldering skills.

Perhaps you can get a cheap used, low voltage controller and see how you like it. You can always sell it back to the market as a cheap, used controller.

Good luck!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> When I put the motor in my car, many moons ago, I was eager to see if the car would actually move. We wired up the motor and put a battery between the passenger's legs. With a nod from the guy behind the wheel, the passenger jammed the welding cable onto the lugs, and away we went. It sure was a lot of fun. But, the control was anything but smooth. My car is extremely light (and even lighter with no batteries) and yours will probably be much lighter. I don't think it will be good for your drivetrain, or neck, to employ such a jerky starting system long term.
> 
> There are cheap homemade controller designs out there. Ones that do PWM even. If you don't have the dough for a controller, you might have to practice your soldering skills.
> 
> ...



I can handle a soldering iron (I've built a few preamps). Can you point me to one of these "cheap homemade controller designs"?


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I just did a quick google search and got this: http://www.evdl.org/lib/mh/index.html

There's a home-made controller design, but it's a bit jumbled for me to read.

I'd also read every DIY thread in the Controller forum. There's a lot to learn there.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Also, Paul Holmes at ecomodder is nearing completion of Version 2 of his
144 Volt controller.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-144v-motor-controller-6404.html

I plan on making this one myself.

Eric


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

So I got to looking through homemade controller threads, scratching my head looking at schematics, realizing that some, if not a lot, of them are not actually operational ... yet, and then Googling up what I could find and lo-and-behold I stumbled onto a new Curtis controller for sale at what looked like a really good price. Model 1209B 48-72V 400A for $450. Did some checking to see what this goes for elsewhere ($800+) and went right back and bought it. So Voltsrat will be 72 volts instead of 84. I can live with that and it will give me a little more room and a little less weight anyway.

This should be good enough to get me going at least.

So now I have some solenoids for sale. ha ha


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I think you just saved yourself some major headaches. It's not like you won't have enough!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

My week of vacation has included a fair number of honey-do jobs, but I'm, getting some stuff done on Voltsrat. too. I have a VERY patient wife.

So I think it's a step in the right direction now that I have the Curtis controller on the way. So this just got easier.

I did some fab work on the rear suspension, cutting things apart and shifting them around a bit to get everything just right so the swing arm is in exactly the right spot to center and align the tire.

I took the 235/60/16 tire back to the dealer because it rubbed against the swing arm and swapped it for a 235/50/16 and now there's plenty of room.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Finished off the rear of the frame today. Tomorrow I'll make up some templates so I can have some 3/16" plates cut to use as diagonals to support the swing arm pivots.


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Go weld young man....go weld!
Lookin good.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Things will be slow for a while since I'm helping my son finish out his '51 Ford lead sled - brackets, trunk floor, wiring, some bodywork and flames.

But some little things on Voltsrat will continue to get done. Just bought a 914 rack and pinion unit so I can set up the center steering.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

After the recent adjustments, the swing arm dropped right in place.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Looking good. How are you going to power the swingarm??? Doesn't appear to be sufficient clearance for sprocket or pulley ? What's yer plan. I have the same swingarm waiting for me, at my Son's house, in Florida. I just need the drive shaft and universal. Have the wheel and tire. Whole thing is brand new takeoff.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Harold in CR said:


> Looking good. How are you going to power the swingarm??? Doesn't appear to be sufficient clearance for sprocket or pulley ? What's yer plan...





fishguts said:


> ...Transmission is a 5-speed Harley with belt drive to the Honda drive shaft...


I am curious to know how you are going to allow the swingarm's driveshaft to pivot, while the Harley's output shaft is stationary. Seems like you would need some type of CV joint in the hub of the swingarm's sprocket, and a spring-loaded belt tensioner, to allow it to pivot without twisting and stretching the belt.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I am curious to know how you are going to allow the swingarm's driveshaft to pivot, while the Harley's output shaft is stationary. Seems like you would need some type of CV joint in the hub of the swingarm's sprocket, and a spring-loaded belt tensioner, to allow it to pivot without twisting and stretching the belt.



I've decided to run a chain instead of a belt so I can work with a sprocket that would be smaller in size and thus, give me more room near the frame. The plan is to have a sleeve cut about .015 under 1 7/16" that will fit over the driveshaft end sticking out of the swing arm. Then the shaft will be held in a 1 7/16" X 3" pillow block bearing. In the forward end of the driveshaft, a milled down Harley engine shaft will be fitted and welded in place. A Harley engine sprocket will slip on the end of this shaft and line up with a sprocket on the trans that will replace the belt hub that is on there now. As far as pivoting goes, there is a universal joint just inside the swing arm that lines up with the pivot axis. The forward and backward slip that is required should be taken up by the slip designed into the rear part of the driveshaft where it slides over the swing arm shaft inside the unit.



Theoretically.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> ...As far as pivoting goes, there is a universal joint just inside the swing arm that lines up with the pivot axis...


Duh (to me), I wasn't thinking that the motorcycle engine is also stationary. If I had thought about that I would have realized there had to be a u-joint at the pivot point.

Thanks for the clarification. Next time just rap my knuckles with a straight-edge and scream, "PAY ATTENTION!!!"


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

I was thinking about using a CVtransmission from a high end performance Snow machine.


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## Alchemist (Apr 16, 2009)

Wow! What an exciting project. I'm looking forward to seeing this on the road.


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## Alchemist (Apr 16, 2009)

That rear swingarm for the "IRS" is quite ingenious! Nice workmanship too!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Alchemist said:


> That rear swingarm for the "IRS" is quite ingenious! Nice workmanship too!


 
Thanks for the encouragement! I've slowed down working on it a bit as I'm helping my son finish up his '51 Ford lead sled that we rebodied onto an S-10 chassis (LT-1, 700R4, air bags, etc.), which is turning out really cool. He works seasonally as a chef (north-south) and is in between jobs for a couple weeks. He goes back to the kitchen this week which means I go back to my own shop.


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## Alchemist (Apr 16, 2009)

FG,

It must be nice to have a chef cook for you in return for your engineering assistance - LOL!!!

Your rear IRS setup had me thinking about using 2 rear arms with 2 motors - each powering a rear wheel - just imagineering - LOL!!

I too am considering the VW bug as a candidate for a EV conversion. I was thinking of sectioning a few inches out of the middle to give a longer appearance without having to chop the top. I know it's against the EV theory but I also want to widen the fenders - though they do have already made wider fenders available - to accomodate the wide tires. I like the road racer look!

I look forward to seeing more progress pictures please. May I ask what brand of welder you are using please?

Thanks for your time!

Ernie


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## john818 (Aug 1, 2008)

Awesome project! Looks like fun! I'm looking into doing a reverse trike, too. Still working on the design. I've gotta devote more time.



fishguts said:


> I'm guessing it will be under 1500 lbs. ... hoping for less than that if I can pull it off seeing that the Honda swing arm comes off a bike with a 1,300 lb. GVW and I don't want the MA RMV hassling me for overstressing a part beyond its intended design. Not sure if they'd go that far, but I'm not taking any chances if I can help it.


I assume the donor bike had close to 50-50 weight distribution. I hope you have much less than half the weight on the rear tire. They say about 1/3 of the weight on each wheel is ideal. Too much weight on the rear makes it tend to tip more easily. Handling might not be your priority, but I remember reading about a standard trike that tipped over when the rider had to swerve. Not pretty.

Oh, and it sounds like you've looked into you local regs, but your headlights look pretty low. Here in California, the centers need to be 22" above the ground.

Don't know where I came across it, but your build reminded me that I have this pic. Can't wait to see yours done!


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## John (Sep 11, 2007)

Very interesting build so far. I look forward to seeing the completed vehicle.
If you drew a line between the contact patches of the three wheels and placed the centre of gravity at the centroid of that triangle it would be on the centre line and 1/3 of wheel base back from the front axle. This would give you an equal reaction normal at each of the three wheels under static conditions. The line between the front tyre contact patch and the rear tyre contact patch forms the axis about which the vehicle will tip if it does. The horizontal distance from this line to the centre of gravity and the height of the centre of gravity determines the vehicles resistance to overturning. Since all of the vehicles over turning resistance comes from the front axle the closer the CG is to the front axle the better the overturning resistance will be (too close and nose over becomes a problem). Keeping the CG low also helps with overturning resistance. Widening the front track will also move the overturning axis away from the CG and help with overturning resistance. In the end I think it comes down to how much overturning resistance do you need? The coefficient of friction of rubber on road is unlikely to exceed about 1.2 so as long as the ratio of “Distance to the OT Axis / Height of CG” exceeds 1.2 the tyres should slide rather that overturn the vehicle. With the ability to place heavy batteries just above the ground clearance and forward it should be easy to move the centre of gravity to a desirable position for stability.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

John said:


> Very interesting build so far. I look forward to seeing the completed vehicle.
> If you drew a line between the contact patches of the three wheels and placed the centre of gravity at the centroid of that triangle it would be on the centre line and 1/3 of wheel base back from the front axle. This would give you an equal reaction normal at each of the three wheels under static conditions. The line between the front tyre contact patch and the rear tyre contact patch forms the axis about which the vehicle will tip if it does. The horizontal distance from this line to the centre of gravity and the height of the centre of gravity determines the vehicles resistance to overturning. Since all of the vehicles over turning resistance comes from the front axle the closer the CG is to the front axle the better the overturning resistance will be (too close and nose over becomes a problem). Keeping the CG low also helps with overturning resistance. Widening the front track will also move the overturning axis away from the CG and help with overturning resistance. In the end I think it comes down to how much overturning resistance do you need? The coefficient of friction of rubber on road is unlikely to exceed about 1.2 so as long as the ratio of “Distance to the OT Axis / Height of CG” exceeds 1.2 the tyres should slide rather that overturn the vehicle. With the ability to place heavy batteries just above the ground clearance and forward it should be easy to move the centre of gravity to a desirable position for stability.


Thanks for technical info. I'll do some calculating based on your suggestions and see what I come up with. I've been assuming I'd shift the weight forward but didn't have a formula for it. This is my first trike so I don't know exactly what to expect handling-wise, but it's my understanding that reverse trikes tend to be extremely stable and handle really well. The traditional trikes with one wheel in front and two in the rear do have a real roll-over problem. I'll also be keeping the weight as low as possible.

As far as headlights go ... these will just be for show, perhaps used as driving lights. I'm figuring on a pop-up center headlight at legal height for nighttime driving. I believe MA law requires 24" above the road.


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## john818 (Aug 1, 2008)

Since you mentioned formulas...

Depending on your math skills, you can estimate your center of gravity in X, Y, Z coordinates. Use a spreadsheet, enter the estimated weights and the X, Y, Z coordinates for the major components and average them out.

I placed the Origin at the midpoint between my front contact patches with the X-axis running across the patches, the Y-axis running toward the rear contact patch, and the Z-axis running up. I think I used the wheel/tire/hub combos, the motor, the battery packs, the frame, and the driver.

Once you establish a weight and an X, Y, and Z for each component, you take weighted averages.

For example, you have Component1 with Weight1 at X1, Y1, and Z1. Component2 has Weight2 at X2, Y2, and Z2.

The 2 components center of gravity would be at...
X = [(Weight1 * X1) + (Weight2 * X2)] / (Weight1 + Weight2)
Y = [(Weight1 * Y1) + (Weight2 * Y2)] / (Weight1 + Weight2)
Z = [(Weight1 * Z1) + (Weight2 * Z2)] / (Weight1 + Weight2)

For 3 components...
X = [(Wt1 * X1) + (Wt2 * X2) + (Wt3 * X3)] / (Wt1 + Wt2 + Wt3)

This expands like this for however many components you choose to calculate.

It's the end of my work day, and I'm rushing through this before I head home, so someone please correct me if my math is off.

Can we attach Excel spreadsheets to posts? If so, I can post a generic one that'll do all the math for you. Just let me know if anyone would like to see it.

After estimating the CG, you can use the other John's technique to calculate how many G's you can pull before you tip. Like he said, I figure I'm going to slide before I tip, but I don't want to tip if my inside tire hits a bump or if I slide into a curb or something.

Oh, and the big advantage to reverse trikes over standard trikes in regards to handling mostly has to do with braking. In general, reverse trikes are less likely to tip while braking and turning, while standard trikes are less likely to tip while accelerating and turning. With either configuration, it's important to keep the center of gravity low and near the pair of wheels.

I suppose I should've started with this, but in case you haven't seen it, RQ Riley has a good article on trike handling here...
http://www.rqriley.com/3-wheel.htm


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Alchemist said:


> May I ask what brand of welder you are using please?


It's a 135 Miller-Matic and I'm using .030 wire. It's just big enough for the job, but I have to set it on the highest setting to get the penetration I want on the .125 wall tubing, so I wish I had a bigger model. I keep it plugged directly into the wall outlet without an extension cord and that helps minimize amp loss.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

john818 said:


> Since you mentioned formulas...
> 
> Depending on your math skills, you can estimate your center of gravity in X, Y, Z coordinates. Use a spreadsheet, enter the estimated weights and the X, Y, Z coordinates for the major components and average them out.
> 
> ...


 

This is really awesome and I do appreciated the guidance ... but ... how does one get an accurate weight at each wheel?? Would it work to slip a scale under a wheel with blocks under the other wheels equal in height to the scale to even the pressure? I guess that would do it.


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## john818 (Aug 1, 2008)

fishguts said:


> This is really awesome and I do appreciated the guidance ... but ... how does one get an accurate weight at each wheel?? Would it work to slip a scale under a wheel with blocks under the other wheels equal in height to the scale to even the pressure? I guess that would do it.


What I posted was how to estimate your center of gravity (CG) before everything is positioned. It's more for use during the design phase,to help decide things like how far forward you want to put your batteries or where you'd like to put your front wheels relative to the chassis. For example, if your CG is too far back, you can move your front suspension pickup points back a few inches, or if your CG is too high, you could widen your front track. I suppose you could use it to tweak things later, too.

I've heard of people putting bathroom scales under a tire to get the weight at that corner (usually for very light vehicles). That could help find how far forward your CG is, but it wouldn't get you the CG's height, although I suppose you could guesstimate that.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> This is really awesome and I do appreciated the guidance ... but ... how does one get an accurate weight at each wheel?? Would it work to slip a scale under a wheel with blocks under the other wheels equal in height to the scale to even the pressure? I guess that would do it.


You might be able to get it done at a local race car shop. They use pretty accurate wheel scales to dial in their vehicles. If you can't move the car you may even be able to convince one to come to you. Most of he scale systems pack up in a case to transport them from track to track.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

WOO-HOO - finally got back into the shop today. Used a laser to line everything up (it was within 1/32") and then welded in the swing arm pivots for good.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Felt like getting some work done on the body today, so I got a fair amount of the seam welded up where the body halves meet. I relocated the steering shaft support tube to the center, too.

First, I cut it out of the forward bulkhead (can't really call it a "firewall" since there's no "fire" up front in an old VW Bug).










Then I welded on a couple 16 gauge sections.









Finally I welded it in the center of the bulkhead. It ain't pretty yet, but it's in there to stay.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Did some more bodywork today. Finished welding the two body halves together, cleaned things up and threw on the primer. I made plugs to fill all the vent holes and bolt holes in the dash (there are a lot of holes in a '75 Beetle dash) and also made a new dash face. This should actually help make the body stronger.










`


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

This project is a serious amount of work! Going to be pretty cool when it's done though


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Had to move the rear body mounts back 4" because I shifted the body forward that much. First, I had to box in the lower body panel sections so there'd be something substantial and square to weld the mounts to. The bumble bee nest was behind the mount on the right. A couple came back to visit today so I zapped them too!

Tomorrow I'll clearance the lower front bulkhead by 2" so the body settles down to the channeled height I set up on the chassis. Then it will be ready to bolt back on the chassis.

Hope you guys don't mind me showing all these construction details.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Don't know why anyone would mind the photos. You could very possibly be helping someone to make decisions and encourage more builds similar to yours. I'm reading every post you make.


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

Harold in CR said:


> Don't know why anyone would mind the photos. You could very possibly be helping someone to make decisions and encourage more builds similar to yours. I'm reading every post you make.


Exactly, and it's your post so you get to put anything you want on the build in here.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm getting closer to having the body ready to bolt back on the chassis. Today I decided to reshape the hood to get it to fit better. It's a 70's era fiberglass custom hood that I hacked 16" out of the middle. It had a gap of 3/8" on the driver's side and 1/2" on the passenger side and the contour was all off. So I cut the trailing edge into a bunch of pieces.










Then I positioned the pieces where I wanted them and "spot welded" them together with blobs of fiberglass body filler.









I filled the cracks and roughed it into shape with a sanding disk.









It fits good now. Tomorrow, weather permitting, I'll fiberglass it outside and inside and basically finish it off.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

'Glassed the hood outside and inside and finished it off:


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Built a little flatbed on the back. I'll weld up an angle iron rim for it next.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2009)

>



Raptor, bird of prey. Sweet. Excellent work. It is fun watching this project come together. 

Pete


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## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Raptor, bird of prey. Sweet. Excellent work. It is fun watching this project come together.
> 
> Pete


Yeah that really looks nice.


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## Watt-a-mezz (May 20, 2009)

That will be a showcar when it is done. Would like to see more pictures. Keep up the good work! Take care, Watt


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Watt-a-mezz said:


> That will be a showcar when it is done. Would like to see more pictures. Keep up the good work! Take care, Watt



Show car?? 

But thanks for the encouragement.


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## Watt-a-mezz (May 20, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Show car??
> 
> But thanks for the encouragement.


Hi, fishguts . We do have some groups here in Ohio that have summer car shows and swapmeets for old school hotrods (or ratrods). I know the one you are building would stir some interest here. At any rate, good luck with your build, and keep posting. Take care, Watt


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Finished off the bed yesterday. I think I'll find something to scuff it up since the diamond plate is shiny like a mirror.

I had a couple hours today so I worked on fabricating the rear shock mount - very complicated. I'm booked solid tomorrow, but will try to take some photos and post them.

Here's a shot from the front so you can get an idea how the lines are working out.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2009)

What color are you planing on painting this thing? Got some color schemes to look at? Can you do a rough mount on the chassis so we can see what it will look like mounted? 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Seeing that I call it "Voltsrat", it just may stay in a rat rodded primer version for a while ... with green flames that is!

I mean it _is_ a *"GREEN" *vehicle, right? 

I can show you what it looks like on the chassis in a couple days because the body will be mounted this week. I have a VW show to go to next Sunday and although it is far from done, I can at least tow or trailer it there.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Here's a shot of the underbelly where I built the lower shock mount. It's all tacked together and I'm doing the final welding this morning. The topside is ready to finish-weld, too. More pics to come.

This funky suspension setup was a challenge to figure out until it dawned on me that is essentially the same as a four-bar street rod front suspension. So, with plumb-bobs and a level, I got it all lined up properly.

Looking to the rear:









Looking front:


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Here's the rear frame section finished up and primed. Upside down shot:


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Well, today was a very good day. I got the topside chassis welding finished and threw on the primer. I clearanced the front bulkhead to accommodate the 2" channel job and welded in the last patch to finish the seam where the body halves come together. My little buddies DJ and Justin from the neighborhood came by and we dropped the body in place - perfect fit. I cleaned the swing axle bearings and loaded them with grease and got the whole assembly in place. Now ... at long last ... Voltsrat is sitting on rubber all around.









My pit crew:









Rear frame with body in place.









Shot of the swing arm and shock mounted up.









Profile shot ha ha! Sure looks goofy! Tomorrow I'll install the dropped front suspension and 14" wheels with low profile tires and it should look much better.









I do like the look of the rear tire and I'm sure glad I didn't go with a skinny motorcycle tire.









OK, I couldn't stand waiting so I did a quick photoshop to see what the finished profile will look like.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

This is looking really cool. My VW blood is churin'. This looks really nice!
What is your estimate on battery capacity? Speed and range?

Should be low cd x area resistance. 

Nice job! Thumbs up!!!

Eric


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

esoneson said:


> This is looking really cool. My VW blood is churin'. This looks really nice!
> What is your estimate on battery capacity? Speed and range?
> 
> Should be low cd x area resistance.
> ...



Thanks for the comments.

It's going to be 72 volts with 6 Trojan (probably) 12 volt batteries. Lithium is still out of my price range and it will take months for me to save up enough even for the Trojans. I'm keeping the voltage as low as I can stand to keep overall costs down. I have a 400 amp 72 volt Curtis controller. Most days, my total commute will be 5 miles with a top legal limit of 35 mph for one, half-mile stretch. The rest is 25 mph or less. Once a week I'd like to do a 25 mile round trip with a top speed of maybe 40. There's an incline from my house to the main street but it isn't much and there aren't any real hills. So my needs don't require a lot of power or capacity, plus I'm designing this thing to be really light, so who knows what the speed and range will actually be. Time will tell.


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Looking GOOD.


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## Atarijedi (Apr 1, 2009)

I can't believe I missed this post, I am doing something very similar except without the VW parts, and mine is going to be a series hybrid, lol.

I am still in my designing stages and trying to determine what kind of drive motors I will use.

Hopefully when everything is finished, it will look like this
http://www.freshgizmos.com/peugeot-stylight-concept/

Except mine will be a trike!


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## martymcfly (Sep 10, 2008)

This is the coolest build going on here. It looks like a lot of work. I love the reverse tricyle concept for an EV. I don't want to sound like a wise guy, but I have one question. Wouldn't it be easier to start with a snowmobile chassis?


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2009)

I'd say that might be so but the VW chassis will be able to hold more weight due to it's design and it is light weight too. He made a good choice and he is fitting a cut down the middle bug body so he really needs that VW chassis to fit the body. 

I agree, it is an excellent build and not just a thought. It is real and moving along quite nicely I might add. 

Pete 

Can't wait to see more.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Can't wait to see more.



OK, here ya go!


By-the-way - I'm a Volksrod nut and have built a few, so I wanted to blend a Volksrod with an electric car and come up with a lightweight vehicle that doesn't require a huge amount of batteries ($$) to work. Also, going with the trike-motorcycle design because that makes it a LOT easier to get licensed as a custom built vehicle in MA.

Here it is at a VW show in Litchfield, CT this past weekend. The first pic is of a Volksrod buddy of mine who was a judge at the show looking disgusted that I didn't registered it for the show.


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## Watt-a-mezz (May 20, 2009)

Hey, it is coming along real good. I knew there would be some interest in it, just wait until it is done! Keep the pictures coming, and take care. Watt


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got my butt in gear and fabricated the headlight brackets.

"Speed holes" will increase the range by .0001 miles if my calculations are correct. 


















Yes, they're ORANGE! But hey, I got 'em for FREE.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey, great build, read the whole thread straight through. probably one of the most imaginative builds i've seen.
I got a question for ya, you're going to replace the harley pulley with a sprocket? whatcha gonna do with the pulley? 

oh, and i totally understand the judges attitude, why didnt you register it for the show?
fred


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

fritzgutten said:


> Hey, great build, read the whole thread straight through. probably one of the most imaginative builds i've seen.
> I got a question for ya, you're going to replace the harley pulley with a sprocket? whatcha gonna do with the pulley?
> 
> oh, and i totally understand the judges attitude, why didnt you register it for the show?
> fred


Thank you for your interest. I'm glad you're enjoying watching this thing come together - it's kinda taken on a life of its own. 

I have a couple of the belt pulleys as I was thinking of going with belts at first. Chains, however, will give me more flexibility in terms of placement of the components. I plan on selling the pulleys eventually.

I didn't register it for the show because it isn't running yet, so maybe next year. The other reason is that if I won something I'd feel I should stick around for the awards after the show and by that time I like to be on the road as we visit our children in CT after the show before heading home to MA, so it makes for a long day.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm in the no-money phase, so I'm knocking out some little projects to get the body together.

This is a totally unnecessary accessory for an open vehicle, but what the heck, I think they're cool - "crotch coolers".

These were found on early 50's VW's and were mounted just in back of the front fenders with levers operating them from under the dash. I decided to make my own by hammer-forming them over a maple plug.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

awesome, its nice to see someone doing some actual metal working


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## miniUMM (Jun 25, 2009)

Nice job! Thumbs up!!!

In some ways it looks like a lotus super 7


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

fritzgutten said:


> awesome, its nice to see someone doing some actual metal working



Thanks ... more to come.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

ok, i know you say you're waiting for more cash for parts to be made, understandable, but dont tell me you arent tinkering with it....what you got?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

The bigger stuff will wait, but I'm messing around with those crotch cooler vents - will have to get some photos up in the next day or two.

Also, I've been messing around with some new instruments I'm making (an upright electric bass and a sax reed-driven native American flute design). So I'm always tinkering with something even if it isn't the EV.


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## anand.ssukhi (Jul 23, 2009)

its really hot 
and i would want to know about the progress


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement! I've just been SO busy with work lately I haven't had any spare time. That, and I'm turning out a couple new musical instruments at present.

Will be back on it soon - promise!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

This is excellent!
I love the skinny bug look.

Is your front axle forward of its normal position? It looks that way in your profile photos but that could just be the angle of the photo.

I have been playing around with ideas to build a reverse trike and I thought and dismissed and thought again and dismissed again, as being silly, the idea of a skinny MGB. But your build may just bring that idea back on the drawing board. 

I used to race MGB GTs and rebuilt a couple from scratch and I think, done in a similar fashion to your bug, it might work. The only difficulties is the front (and rear screen if I use a GT) screen not being very flat but I'm sure that can be sorted. Also the British SVA/IVA inspections for amateur build vehicles can be a mine field.

I am also banking on the after market fibreglass body panels, that I may still be available, making the build easier and lighter.

I am currently working on a development/refinement model based on the mechanical speed controller on this thread. Having a background in mechanical and electrical then in electronics it seemed like a more promising starting point for me.

I look forward to seeing more of this build, thanks for sharing.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

That mechanical controller concept is intriguing. Wonder if anyone is building one and if it actually works?

I like your MGB idea! Have any sketches of what you're thinking about? In the States, the motorcycle laws are much more lenient than auto laws, so the windscreen can be plexiglass which is easy to shape the way you want. I'm in Massachusetts and the laws here won't allow an enclosed trike, so it won't have a top.

My front suspension ("beam") looks a little different because although it is a VW Beetle configuration, it's actually what is called a "Puma" beam because it has height adjusters installed at the factory. The Puma was a Brazilian VW with basically a Beetle chassis and a body that sort-of looked like a Datson 240Z. Aftermarket height adjusters can be installed in a regular Beetle suspension and are readily available and require cutting out the centers of the of the top and lower beam sections and welding them in. Like with the Puma beam, they give 4" of lowering. A lowered beam like this requires caster shims to correct the steering geometry in the lowered position, shorter shock absorbers and special ball joints with more travel. In addition to the Puma beam I have 2 1/2" dropped spindles to get the front even lower. I also moved the body back 6" in relation to the front suspension. This was purely for asthetic reasons as I'm running the car without stock fenders (wings) and like the street rod look with the front suspension farther out in front than it is on a stock Beetle.

I also dropped the body 2" down over the chassis and that affects the look, too.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, I am attempting to find out if the mechanical sped controller will do 'what it says on the tin' so to speak. The idea seems workable and cheap so if it works on a small scale then I might give it a go on the basis it is very little financial investment if I find it is unsuitable. Also it doesn't stop the rest of the build moving forward as it can be improved on later if needs be.

I haven't any proper drawings yet, just an active sketch pad with plan and elevation views and some component dimensions to see if the look is pleasing. I am also old school and have an A0+ drafting board with indexed head to draw with. Haven't used AutoCad since '89.

I'm thinking of keeping the bonnet/hood width close to the width of the front grille up to the bulkhead/firewall and then keeping the the body around the doors to single seat width and then tapering the back gradually so that it is proportional to a single rear wheel. Just imagining the tail lights at the rear separated by 10" of boot lid width.

It might give a 1+1 seating depending on how much of the back seat area is used for the motor.

However it works I think I would use the MGB front suspension member as it holds all the mounts and steering rack and would ensure the geometry stays correct. The rack may need to be changed or the column cut down as it points outwards.
I would be tempted to use the same mods on it that I used for the race MGBs, longer lower wishbones to make it negative camber, adjustable telescopic dampers, lowered and uprated springs (not sure that would be needed) and V8 standard bushes and drilled discs. It might handle like a car of the '90s rather then a car of the 50's then! 

Recent legislation here is potentially a major headache and based on some other forums I've been on. What is acceptable seems to be based, sometimes, on the opinion of the civil servent that day.

There's a lot for me to research for this yet, on top of a house restoration, a theatre production and writing a thesis for my MSc.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> There's a lot for me to research for this yet, on top of a house restoration, a theatre production and writing a thesis for my MSc.



Dang - you sound like me - busy as a one-armed paperhanger.

I need a little UK to Americanese translation ... what's a 
"bush"? Would that be a spindle?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


> Dang - you sound like me - busy as a one-armed paperhanger.
> 
> I need a little UK to Americanese translation ... what's a
> "bush"? Would that be a spindle?


Oh, on top of all that I am also studying to be a qualified college teacher and I have a cabinet making workshop where I make bespoke furniture and theatre sets. I'm not too over run though as the work is a little seasonal.

A bush, in suspension terms, would be the black rubber bit that goes on the end of, say, a leaf spring or a wish bone arm to soften the connection to the bolt that locates it to the chassis parts.

On the standard 1800cc MGB wish bones the bushes were pairs of rubber cones that were squashed in to each end of te wishbone and then a bolt pushed through. On the V8 MGB it was replaced with a much harder and more resilient one piece rubber with a steel tube in the centre, much like a leaf spring bush. It made the suspension much more firm and less flexible in the wrong directions so the front wheels stayed on the road surface.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

you got some more updates? or you been playing with yer other toys?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Things got slowed down due to an extreme lack of $$, due in part to medical expenses and the fact that our son is laid off and staying with us for the month of August and eating out of our fridge!

There's some small stuff I hope to get done soon and will post photos then. But then the next step is a big one because it involves getting machine work done to set up the drive system and then buying batteries.

This stuff ain't cheap!


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

hope things are going alright, havent ditched the project yet have you?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

fritzgutten said:


> hope things are going alright, havent ditched the project yet have you?


Nope - it's just sitting quietly in my shop waiting. I've started saving for the batteries and in the meantime, my schedule is opening up a little, so I plan to get back out there in the next week or so and do some of the inexpensive detail work.

Thanks for asking.


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## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey Guts, 
keep us posted, even with the piddly stuff, especially if you're doing sheet metal work. It totally fascinates me 
fred


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Bet you all thought I gave up on this one. I just needed some time to get some other things done and start saving up some money to go the next step.

Bought all my chargers (6) today at Job Lots - grand total with tax - $114. They're not fancy, but they're supposed to be smart chargers and can charge up to 12 amps, which should be good. With this setup I don't plan on using individual battery balancers. Don't know if I'll mount all six on board or not yet.


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## vpoppv (Jul 27, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Bet you all thought I gave up on this one. I just needed some time to get some other things done and start saving up some money to go the next step.
> 
> Bought all my chargers (6) today at Job Lots - grand total with tax - $114. They're not fancy, but they're supposed to be smart chargers and can charge up to 12 amps, which should be good. With this setup I don't plan on using individual battery balancers. Don't know if I'll mount all six on board or not yet.


These are excellent chargers; I'm very satisfied with them.....


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

vpoppv said:


> These are excellent chargers; I'm very satisfied with them.....


You were my inspiration for buying these! Glad to hear you're happy with yours. Next, I'll start picking up batteries.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

A little at a time. My spare time is being spent building music instruments to sell so I can buy parts for this!

Moved the headlights to get them to legal height.











Here's the "Salute" (sax-flute) I created. These will soon be appearing on Ebay.











And here's a link to the bamboo "Tiki Bass" I'm building. I'll eventually have these for sale, too. I add update photos to this page as work progresses.
http://www.theclassicboathouse.com/tikibass.html


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

The digital voltmeters showed up today. 6 will monitor the pack batteries and the 7th will monitor the battery that powers the lights.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Voltsrat is ba-ack!

Took some time off as my arthritis got out of hand, but had both hips replaced in Feb. and now I am recovering. Doing pretty good and back in the shop some.

Decided to move the headlights back down where they belong and replaced the aftermarket variety with the headlights off my first "car", a 1937 IH truck. A motorcycle light will be mounted in the center of the hood for inspection purposes eventually. It will quietly be removed after that!

Also, decided to remove the flatbed and use a VW decklid for the top of a boattail rear. A buddy loaned me a late model lid to get an idea if it will work or not and it does look like it will. I will use an earlier lid though as the shape is better.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Some coil-overs arrived today and that added a little bling to the front suspension. They give me more adjustability which I assume I'll need once I add a couple hundred pounds of batteries. It's all guess work at this point and I won't know for sure until its loaded and run down the road. But the coil-overs sure are purdy!


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Fishguts,

Good to see you back in action! Take care of those joints, I'm a Humira fan myself.

I think your project is great, I've always been a fan of the VW and what you can do with them, and yours is really unique.

Where are you going to put all those batteries with that narrowed front? Seems like limited space is a major concern. Still thinking of 84 Volts? Lithium?

Keep the pictures coming, this is a great project to follow.

Eric


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey!
Good to see you back, I had wondered what had happened to you.

Looking forward to seeing your project progress again.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks guys - it's good to be back.

I'm planning on 72 volts now. Picked up a 72 volt 400 amp Curtis. I also plan to run 6 US Battery 12 volt 185 HC or XC (plus one for lights, etc.).

I know that's far from ideal in the EV world, but I can't afford Lithium or the BMS they require. I do have plenty of space for 7 12-volt batteries. 

This will be a very light vehicle and will be driven in the city. Top speed doesn't need to be over 40 and will usually be a lot less than that. I live on the coast so there are no serious hills. My daily range will generally be under 10 miles. My commute is actually 5 miles, 2 1/2 miles each way. It would be nice once a week to be able to make a 24 mile round trip to an out of town meeting with speeds of 50 at the most, mostly less. 

I think it's doable.


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## camerondmm (Apr 28, 2009)

Its good to see this project back on the road (well, heading there). I'm sure you've already checked, but those 185s are huge. I built a cardboard one the other day to play around with... Totally massive.

Best of luck!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

camerondmm said:


> Its good to see this project back on the road (well, heading there). I'm sure you've already checked, but those 185s are huge. I built a cardboard one the other day to play around with... Totally massive.
> 
> Best of luck!



Yeah I know - and they weigh over 100 lbs., too. I do think I can fit 6 of them. It's the weight factor that may force me to go with something lighter. Still shopping!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Here's the shifter I'm going to use in Volstrat. OK, there won't be any transmission, but I still figure I need a forward and reverse lever.

Oh, and in the meantime, it's actually my cane. I had double hip replacement surgery in Feb. and I've progressed to one crutch. Next comes a cane and I figured I might as well have a rat rod version ready.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

So it's looking like I may get this thing going with Maxx 29's. I know they're far from ideal but I'm on a tight budget and just want to get the trike running. I have a wimpy controller anyway - Curtis 72 volt 400 amp.

I went to Walmart with my tape measure tonight and sized up the batteries: 6 3/4" wide, 13" long and 9" tall. They're $85. I'll have to pay the core charge plus tax, so it's going to be real close to $100. Still, that's only $600 for batteries. The Maxx 29 dimensions will work really well in Voltsrat, plus the batteries only weigh about 65 lbs. each. So, fitment is better and weight is better, but I sacrifice AH and long-term reliability. Well, I really only need to go about 10 miles a day in city driving and the trike will be plenty light, so I expect it will perform just fine for my needs. 

I'll just have to see how it behaves when I get it together. In the future, assuming I have more $$ to play with, I can always swap out components to improve performance.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got some more bling today - a 16" moon disc for the rear. Two 15" discs are on the way for the front. They should give me at least 20 more miles of range! Bwahahhahaha!











These things are stainless steel with a spun finish, so they're not as shiny as my camera makes them look. Hey, you can still see the *GREEN!*


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Swapped out the 50 series rear tire for a 55 series to give me more height (it's the biggest tire I can fit in the Honda swingarm). There's no practical reason for this - just wanted a better looking tire that would work with the 165 15's I'm putting up front. The 55 series tire has the same sidewall height as the 165. The 165's are skinnier than what I had on there before so less rolling resistance, but obviously with the steamroller rear tire I have I'm not really all that concerned about that. The street rod theme of this contraption dictates a fat rear tire. So I trade off efficiency for the cool factor. It's a good thing I won't be driving this thing very far. The flat bed has disappeared as I'm getting ready to build in a rear deck/boattail. Once there's some weight onboard there will be a natural nose-down rake. I also have an adjustable front suspension that I can drop another 4".


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Found an early 50's rear deck lid ("W" lid) and decided to use it as the top deck for a boat tail rear. A buddy came over and lent a hand. I welded some rods along the body lines at the doors and we used those as guides to line up the deck lid. My friend pulled the upper rear quarters together with a ratchet strap and things lined up real nice, so I tack welded the lid in place. Next, I'll have to build in the empty places so it all flows together.

Theoretically.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2010)

It will be interesting to see this come together. If your previous work is an indication it will be real cool. I can sort of see what you are doing. Are you going to be welding up the doors? Looks like you tack welded them. Or is the tack just to hold things square until your done welding that deck lid? Maybe the later. Sorry to see a nice W deck lid go the way of the rat rod. One more harder to find now in decent condition. Oh well. I guess its a good cause. 

Love the VoltsRat

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> It will be interesting to see this come together. If your previous work is an indication it will be real cool. I can sort of see what you are doing. Are you going to be welding up the doors? Looks like you tack welded them. Or is the tack just to hold things square until your done welding that deck lid? Maybe the later. Sorry to see a nice W deck lid go the way of the rat rod. One more harder to find now in decent condition. Oh well. I guess its a good cause.
> 
> Love the VoltsRat
> 
> Pete


It sure is difficult to make a three-wheeled vehicle look right, so hopefully it works when I'm done adjusting everything. I'm still toying with the possibility of sectioning the body 2" or 3". It depends on how chubby it looks when the deck is finished. Getting the right taper at the rear is challenging. Basically I'll cut and weld until it looks the way I want it to. Haven't decided on whether or not to weld up the doors. The tack welds keep things in place for now - necessary when you cut off the top. Pretty good chance I'll weld them because with the bobbed rear they're starting to look overly long to me. The W lid was pretty cheap because it's a crappy one no one else wanted. It looks a lot better in the photos than it actually is. There will be a lot of hammer and dolly work to get it straight. It will be worth it when VW collectors come by and gasp! I'll have to tell them this is a rare prototype or something.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2010)

> I'll have to tell them this is a rare prototype or something.


Sweet, I'd love to see their faces!


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

I just wanted to say that this project is awesome!! 
--corbin


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement ... it sure helps inspire me to keep moving on this thing.

I started to build in the rear deck. First, electrical conduit for framing. Next, poster board patterns. Then, steel. Don't worry, the sheet metal will be all nice and shiny by the time I finish welding and grinding.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a nice bit of work on that infill panel.

I like the way the top surface of the doors sweeps around to be the front surface at the rear.

Are you keeping an edge around there or are you radiusing all the edges?


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

That's some mighty fine work there bud on that vehicle. Can't wait for more. Looks damn good. 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That's a nice bit of work on that infill panel.
> 
> I like the way the top surface of the doors sweeps around to be the front surface at the rear.
> 
> Are you keeping an edge around there or are you radiusing all the edges?





gottdi said:


> That's some mighty fine work there bud on that vehicle. Can't wait for more. Looks damn good.
> 
> Pete



Glad you guys like it. 

I'm trying to keep the same radius all the way around. To do this I used 3/4" conduit to form the outer edge and 1/2" conduit for the inner edge. These tubes fit the shape of the lower window opening in the doors. The vertical face of the rear section will be where the top of my seat rests.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

My tail lights arrived today - '39 Chevy.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got one side fitted and about half welded. It's a challenge to get all the different pieces to work together but it's starting to look like it will work out.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2010)

Very nice work. Love seeing the progress. Gives me some hope on welding projects. Learning to tig and mig weld. Just practicing at this time. No way would I tackle that kind of work yet. Some day soon I hope to try my hand on some german metal. 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Very nice work. Love seeing the progress. Gives me some hope on welding projects. Learning to tig and mig weld. Just practicing at this time. No way would I tackle that kind of work yet. Some day soon I hope to try my hand on some german metal.
> 
> Pete


Sheet metal is a real challenging, but keep at it and you'll figure it out. I use a lot of spot welds and don't run any beads - too much heat. It still warps some when I get impatient! I learned to run my mig off an extension cord as this robs some amps and gives more flexibility at lower settings.

More pics later today as I will try to finish up one side between morning and evening work appointments. Fortunately I don't live far from work.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking really good and neat. The flow of the lines are really starting to show.



fishguts said:


> Sheet metal is a real challenging, but keep at it and you'll figure it out. I use a lot of spot welds and don't run any beads - too much heat. It still warps some when I get impatient! I learned to run my mig off an extension cord as this robs some amps and gives more flexibility at lower settings.
> 
> More pics later today as I will try to finish up one side between morning and evening work appointments. Fortunately I don't live far from work.


I lay wet towels on either side of the weld seam to keep the metal cool but still do it in spots or very short stiches.

At a push I have welded car bodywork with a stick welder, not neat or quick but enough to hold off the tin worm for MOT inspections.


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

when i worked in body shop and we were in a rush we had a helper hold heavy copper plug behind the weld until it got to hot to handel bear handed then we would throw it in abucket of water and get another one that would let wou weld 2 inch stitches 2 feet apart but you cannot wet hot weld but you can towel soke the body 2 inches away from weld that way you can cool the warpage off before it starts when moister wickes over to the weld and it dosnot evaperate off you can go back amd weld again but be sure to wreng towel out before you lay it above the weld that way it dosnot drench it and cristlize it when the body above the weld quits steaming and moister crawls acrost the weld body is cool to weld again


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

sometimes ifyou want a smoth surface you clamp a copper flat stock onto the fineshed side and weld on the inside. flatstoke is 1/2 thick x 2 inch x 3 - 4 feet medium grade copper. it bends fairley easy to fit with light hammer work to follow curves. less grinding and sanding all the ugly is inside only works if you have clearance to weld inside though. i grew up in famley metal fab shop that said you want it we build it if its made of metal. i never could see good enuf to weld but i can hammer, shape, bend, roll, form, sand, grind, anything i can feel


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Harrield said:


> sometimes ifyou want a smoth surface you clamp a copper flat stock onto the fineshed side and weld on the inside. flatstoke is 1/2 thick x 2 inch x 3 - 4 feet medium grade copper. it bends fairley easy to fit with light hammer work to follow curves. less grinding and sanding all the ugly is inside only works if you have clearance to weld inside though. i grew up in famley metal fab shop that said you want it we build it if its made of metal. i never could see good enuf to weld but i can hammer, shape, bend, roll, form, sand, grind, anything i can feel



Great metal working advice ... I've been wanting to try a copper heat sink for a long time. And I never considered welding on the inside - duh! Why didn't I think of that? I need to visit a scrap yard and see if I can pick up a piece of copper. Thanks!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Those are good tips. The only thing I would add is to remember you don't have to rush. A body shop is racing the clock to push work out as quickly as possible. In custom work, which building a DIY EV really is, take your time! Even if you're using some type of heat sink, learn to walk away and let it cool down! I promise it'll be there when you get back, and the shop rat won't eat all your wire! You don't have to spit the whole roll on the car in five minutes to save it! 

It really is hard to get in the right frame of mind to spot weld with a MIG sometimes, because the fun part is pulling the trigger and listening to it sizzle.

Lastly, beware the caterpillars!


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## Harrield (Dec 3, 2008)

copper, or alum. won't stick to steal weld but alum gets hot the fastes pound for pound but it dosnot bend or shape as easy.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Those are good tips. The only thing I would add is to remember you don't have to rush. A body shop is racing the clock to push work out as quickly as possible. In custom work, which building a DIY EV really is, take your time! Even if you're using some type of heat sink, learn to walk away and let it cool down! I promise it'll be there when you get back, and the shop rat won't eat all your wire! You don't have to spit the whole roll on the car in five minutes to save it!
> 
> It really is hard to get in the right frame of mind to spot weld with a MIG sometimes, because the fun part is pulling the trigger and listening to it sizzle.
> 
> Lastly, beware the caterpillars!


Thanks, man. I do get in a rush to see things done sometimes. I've welded a few caterpillars in my day. I've always called them "dog turds"!

I've been working on this over a year now, so it's definitely a slow-go project. I'm figuring on another year until it's running. I've done a lot of hotrodding custom work over the years - chop/section/channel/nose/deck, etc. The learning never ends, though. 

This vehicle is narrowed 16" and channeled 2", chop will be around 4-6" when done - maybe a removable hardtop. Depending on how it looks once I get the chance to see it parked out in the open (June car show) and battery space requirements, I might section it a couple inches, too. If I go that route I'll probably weld the doors shut.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Those are good tips. The only thing I would add is to remember you don't have to rush. A body shop is racing the clock to push work out as quickly as possible. In custom work, which building a DIY EV really is, take your time! Even if you're using some type of heat sink, learn to walk away and let it cool down! I promise it'll be there when you get back, and the shop rat won't eat all your wire! You don't have to spit the whole roll on the car in five minutes to save it!
> 
> It really is hard to get in the right frame of mind to spot weld with a MIG sometimes, because the fun part is pulling the trigger and listening to it sizzle.
> 
> Lastly, beware the caterpillars!


By the way, the T-bucket trike in your avatar is pretty cool looking. I seriously considered splurging on a partial T-bucket chassis as the basis of this reverse trike. It looks like a fairly simple job to adapt a swing arm rear to one. Then the rear tire would be under the bed or turtle deck. In the end, I didn't have the coin for this and opted to stay with the Volksrod theme since I had an available Bug and I've built a couple Volksrods and had a ton of fun with them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> By the way, the T-bucket trike in your avatar is pretty cool looking. I seriously considered splurging on a partial T-bucket chassis as the basis of this reverse trike. It looks like a fairly simple job to adapt a swing arm rear to one. Then the rear tire would be under the bed or turtle deck. In the end, I didn't have the coin for this and opted to stay with the Volksrod theme since I had an available Bug and I've built a couple Volksrods and had a ton of fun with them.


Your eyes deceive you fish! That's two different vehicles. THe top is the a side view layout drawing of the Inhaler, the bottom half is a CAD model rendering of my e-bike project (two-wheeler), with a digital me and digital cutie on board! 

You're right, that would be a fairly easy one to do though. Snip the frame behind the body, add in swing arm mounts...


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Your eyes deceive you fish! That's two different vehicles. THe top is the a side view layout drawing of the Inhaler, the bottom half is a CAD model rendering of my e-bike project (two-wheeler), with a digital me and digital cutie on board!
> 
> You're right, that would be a fairly easy one to do though. Snip the frame behind the body, add in swing arm mounts...



It's the power of suggestion - I'm SO gullible. Still ... a T-bucket with one in front and two in the rear could work ... but I'd still like to see a reverse trike version. And your Inhaler project is really really neat.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> ...And your Inhaler project is really really neat.


Thanks. I love the bug - especially since you added the rear deck lid. Big thumbs up.



fishguts said:


> Still ... a T-bucket with one in front and two in the rear could work ... but I'd still like to see a reverse trike version...


I would probably build the one up front version, if i did it.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Won't be able to work on it for about a week, but in the meantime, got tired of the goofy nose-in-the-air attitude, so dropped the front (beam is adjustable) and took a pic. Then I photoshopped it a bit, shaving the door handle and filling the door seams and giving it an angle section of 3"front to 0" rear.

BEFORE:









AFTER:


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

So, when does the sectioning begin?  That's nice.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Fishguts,

You absolutely have to weld the doors and section the body. The difference is amazing. The proportions are much better.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2010)

Much better low and looks good with things filled in too. Looking much better as the days go by. Hey, I like that old wood boat in the back ground too. Very sweet looking thing. I'd bet that thing would fly with an old 60's Merc 6 cylinder hanging off it's backside. 

Just for you to enjoy. http://greenev.zapto.org/2ndRun2.mov

That is us in our old 1960 Smithcraft with a 62 Merc 6 cylinder outboard. My friends with our camera are doing 32 mph and we are over taking them easy. It is a 12meg movie and small but thougt you'd enjoy an old classic aluminum boat on the lake. It was built in Arizona and was built to run the colorado river for the US Forest service. It is class 4 white water capable. It is one hell for stout little boat. They made three sizes and mine is the 15 footer. They made a 12 and a 17 as well. Very few exist today. One other that I know of in Grass Valley and it's a 17 footer. Mine is having the deck restored. Not an easy job. Anyway enjoy the little flick. 

Pete


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I agree that the filled and lowered look works. The sheet over the boat needs a bit of taping up though!

Go with the chop. I want to see how you do that.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> So, when does the sectioning begin?  That's nice.


Depends on how my schedule goes. I'm shooting for a mid-June car show to get as much done as possible. I might take some vacation days between now and then.

That tarp does look like it needs taping up ... guess I should have finished the photoshop job and "repaired" it on my computer! 

The boat I bought off a neighbor. It was built from Popular Mechanics plans in 1961 and never launched. It needs a new deck but other than that is a solid little boat. It's one of a number of classic boats I've owned. I also have a '59 Larson Falls Flyer (extremely rare) waiting for me to get around to restoring it. Classic boats are another of my obsessions I'm afraid.

Here's the website I run: www.theclassicboathouse.com

Here's a link to my Falls Flyer page: www.theclassicboathouse.com/fallsflyerdave.html


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Seat arrived today. It's a simple aluminum bomber type seat with diamond pattern upholstery. Nothing fancy but nice quality.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Seat arrived today...


Hey, where's your honey going to sit?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2010)

Never was a honey mobile.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Hey, where's your honey going to sit?



She got voted off the island I'm afraid ... much to her relief! 

Now she can maintain a little dignity and not feel obligated to ride along with her wacko mad scientist grease monkey spouse.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> She got voted off the island I'm afraid ... much to her relief!
> 
> Now she can maintain a little dignity and not feel obligated to ride along with her wacko mad scientist grease monkey spouse.


Lol! 

I always made sure there was a seat for my ex, but she never really wanted to be in it. Loud, smelly, bumpy, hot rods weren't her thing. Now that I'm single again, I still keep making sure there's a seat but can't find a honey _*I*_ really want with me! Especially since EVs are so quiet - I'd better really enjoy what she has to say!  The last show I went to I was perfectly happy to be there by myself...


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2010)

Perfect seat for that ride. When will we see it move? Any projected date yet?


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

fishguts,

I gotta say this is the coolest project I've seen in a very long time. I can't think of any other VW trike project quite along these lines.

But, after reading the whole drama of the "unique vehicle" thread, I have to ask... can it go 200 miles on a charge? can it turn on a dime? does it have a steering wheel or a joystick? why didn't you put all the batteries behind the back tire so the front end will bob up and down? 

Sorry, I'm still laughing about that one. 

Cool project! Definitely watching this one!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the seat.
That could be the theme for the interior, make it look like an old bomber.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Fishguts
I like the seat!
Where did you get it?
Was it expensive?
Measurements?
Can I get two?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I like that seat! Would you reveal where you bought it? I've got a couple of the old style fiberglass seats with drawstring covers in the old Buggy right now.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Hey Fishguts, have you considered a strait axle conversion kit for the front? It's an interesting kit that moves the front tires forward some and replaces the beam and trailing arm suspension with a drop axle with leaf spring like an early Ford. It is a bit expensive (or it just might be under the front of my Buggy.)


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi Fishguts
> I like the seat!
> Where did you get it?
> Was it expensive?
> ...



Now that the bomber seat thing has become popular with the rat rod/street rod crowd there are at least several manufacturers and most, in my opinion, seem to be really expensive. But then I found this one on Ebay which was more affordable AND had the cool diamond pattern upholstery. It appealed to me right away because it reminds me of seats I've seen in vintage race cars and Voltsrat is slowly taking on that look.

The seat was $225 plus shipping. For me, it came right out to $250 total. You can buy two at a time, which I assume is what most people would want. They are 17" wide, 22" tall and the seat bottom is 20" deep and being aluminum, are very light.

Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Blac...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Hey Fishguts, have you considered a strait axle conversion kit for the front? It's an interesting kit that moves the front tires forward some and replaces the beam and trailing arm suspension with a drop axle with leaf spring like an early Ford. It is a bit expensive (or it just might be under the front of my Buggy.)



I've thought about that but decided against it. The Speedway kit plus necessary hardware will get you up over $2,000 real fast (ouch!) and the kits are back ordered like forever - lots of unhappy potential customers right now. I'm resourceful enough that I could have put together a dropped axle front end out of scrounged and new parts and welded up my own adapter to fit it to the pan, but people I know who have run dropped axles on VW's have been very unhappy with the results. Turns out it may be one of those things that looks cool but just doesn't perform very well. I actually like VW front ends anyway, especially when they are set up right. Mine is a 4" adjustable beam with 2 1/2" dropped spindles and chrome coil over shocks. I like the way it looks and works, so I'll be keeping it. I will be setting it up with rack and pinion steering so the gear box will be in the middle. Also, I mounted the body back 6" on the pan, giving me an "extended" front end. I started with 10" and reduced it as I worked to get the proportions right for this vehicle. I'll be taking a 3" angle section out of the body and that will give the impression of the "extension" being farther forward than what it already is.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Fishgut,
Thanks for the seat info

Unfortunately I only have 16 inches width so I will have to make my own


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Now that the bomber seat thing has become popular with the rat rod/street rod crowd there are at least several manufacturers and most, in my opinion, seem to be really expensive. But then I found this one on Ebay which was more affordable AND had the cool diamond pattern upholstery. It appealed to me right away because it reminds me of seats I've seen in vintage race cars and Voltsrat is slowly taking on that look...


The difference in cost is _usually_ based on the details in the seat. The ones that are a little more than yours have features such as hand-rolled edges, and some of the really expensive ones have tons of hand-bucked rivets. Time is money, and some things are very time-consuming to do. I know you are well aware of that fact, with the stuff you do. 





Duncan said:


> Hi Fishgut,
> Thanks for the seat info
> 
> Unfortunately I only have 16 inches width so I will have to make my own


The Speedway seat is 16" wide. Here it is in on their site. The story I read on Ebay is that they used to purchase their seats from Hunt's, but took the design to a Chinese manufacturer and started selling them for the same price (bigger profit margin of course). Hunt's usually has that plain, unpunched seat, on Ebay for the same or lower cost. They make certain to stress that their seats are American-made, and usually have a picture of their named stamped on the seat and a "Made in the USA" stamp.

I plan to run these seats. I am hoping to purchase from Hunt's, if they have the unpunched bomber seats in stock when I am ready to buy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> I've thought about that but decided against it... but people I know who have run dropped axles on VW's have been very unhappy with the results. Turns out it may be one of those things that looks cool but just doesn't perform very well...


Same here. The Inhaler is supposed to have a straight axle under the front, but I want it to handle so that just wasn't going to cut it. I decided to challenge myself with making the Fiero front suspension look right. I love the look of the straight axle Bugs but doubt I would want to drive one very long. I think Voltsrat looks fine with the V-dub front suspension, and should be a nice ride.

Can't wait to see the section.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got the other side welded and basically finished off. Next, I need to slice and shrink the area where the "pope's nose" light used to be to level it some.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> ...area where the "pope's nose" light...


What is that?!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Here's what is commonly known as a "pope's nose" light.

Probably a little politically incorrect these days ....


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> What is that?!


The bit that is like the Parson's nose on a roast chicken.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> The bit that is like the Parson's nose on a roast chicken.


I have no idea what that is either... 



fishguts said:


> Here's what is commonly known as a "pope's nose" light...


Ahahahahahaha!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!  That, is hilarious! I can't stop laughing!



fishguts said:


> ...Probably a little politically incorrect these days ...


Probably, but that doesn't make it any less funny!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I have no idea what that is either...


Google images is your friend.

Can't wait to see the next bit of bodywork, Fishguts, your your car is looking good.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

fishguts said:


> Here's what is commonly known as a "pope's nose" light.
> 
> Probably a little politically incorrect these days ....


I bet all us old VW guys are going strait to he11 for calling them that


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

EVfun said:


> I bet all us old VW guys are going strait to he11 for calling them that


At least we'll be in good company! 



Today I had about one hour of work time after the Mother's Day stuff. Got the pope's nose mount area bump-up shrunk down. Made some cuts, pressed the pieces down with one hand and welded with the other. Tacked it all in, ground it off and did a little hammer and dolly work - voila!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great work there.



Oh look, Stegosaurus.


fishguts said:


>


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Great work there.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look, Stegosaurus.



 BWAHAHAHAHA!!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's cool and funny - good eye Woody!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Welded up some little bits.









T-handle









door handle









windshield wiper mount bump up thingy









gas door - won't need that anymore!​


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Wouldn't the gas door have been a good place to plug in the charger?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Wouldn't the gas door have been a good place to plug in the charger?



I thought about that but decided I wanted to smooth up the side more than have a plug-in spot in the front quarter. Being an open bodied vehicle, I can easily provide for a plug inside.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

What is your plan for the doors? It will be quite a stretch to jump all the way over the door, even sectioned some. Since the rear suspension/wheel causes each side to have a bit of distinctive personality perhaps leaving the RH door and welding away the LH door would provide nice, and functional, touch.


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## Guest (May 12, 2010)

EVfun said:


> What is your plan for the doors? It will be quite a stretch to jump all the way over the door, even sectioned some. Since the rear suspension/wheel causes each side to have a bit of distinctive personality perhaps leaving the RH door and welding away the LH door would provide nice, and functional, touch.



That sounds like a very good idea.

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

EVfun said:


> What is your plan for the doors? It will be quite a stretch to jump all the way over the door, even sectioned some. Since the rear suspension/wheel causes each side to have a bit of distinctive personality perhaps leaving the RH door and welding away the LH door would provide nice, and functional, touch.



At this point I'm going to weld them shut and remove the seams for a smooth side effect. This isn't the first time I've done this with a VW by the way. I sectioned a shortened roadster I built a couple years ago and it was an easy thing to step over the side (I'm 6' 2"). This one will be sectioned a little less but still should be relatively easy to get in and out of for someone of my height. The body is channeled 2" over the pan and the front suspension is dropped 6 1/2" (adjustable), so it will be pretty low. The doors can't be functional with the wedge section I'm doing as it messes up the hinge alignment big time. Worse case scenario is I'll later decide I want a door and I'll need to cut one out and create new jambs. It's just metal.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree with fish, weld 'em up! I'm only 5'4" and I would step over. It's not like it's a daily driver. It's a toy - toys aren't supposed to be practucal, they're suppsed to be cool and fun!  I've been stepping over the Inhaler's tub to get in and out, and it's really not that bad. I'm going to have a roof and cage, so I will need doors, but if it was going to be a roadster - no way!

He's right about the door jambs too. The only way to wedge-section a body and get the door jambs right is to cut everything up in a million pieces (obvious exaggeration) and start piecing it all back together again. That would make sense on a taller vehicle with a roof. Way too much work, for what you gain.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Pulled out the door hardware and glass and welded in the door tops.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Well, got my little hot rod all prepped for the big slice job tomorrow. I just need to do some more welding on the door seams and then we can mark it off and cut away.









A VW buddy or two will be here to help out. Anybody else around who wants to drop in is welcome - there will be plenty of grub. If you've never sectioned a car before and want to try your hand at it, here's your chance.

I plan to take plenty of photos.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

If I happen to be in the neighborhood, I'll stop by and get my hands dirty.  Seriously, can't wait to see it!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

If I was closer I would be there.

Have fun with it. I look forward to the photos.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

WOO-HOO, had a good day. Weather cooperated and a couple VW buddies came over to lend a hand - not the kind of job you want to do by yourself. We finished the day by grilling up some dogs and burgers and hanging out on the deck.

So here's a step-by-step body sectioning tutorial. Well, not really, but here are some photos of the mess we made. The stance turned out better than I expected.









One of my friends had to offer a Volksrod blessing before surgery began ... just in case the patient didn't make it.









Tape marks two lines front to rear that will be the wedge cut - 3" at the front and 0" at the rear. The tricky part is getting the lines right in the curved wheel well openings. Measuring up from the bottom edge of the body provided a good reference. Then cutting began.









At the rear the cut tapers off to no more than a single cutting wheel width.









Once the outside was cut we moved inside to cut through the thick doorposts and interior structure.









Yeah, Fred Flintstone had to try it on for size. here, you can see the 3" wedge section almost completely cut and removed.










HEY, WHO BENT MY #%&*@!! SAWSALL BLADE??













Here the top part of the body has settled down on to the bottom half with the wedge section removed.









Then we took the pieces apart and leveled off some of the uneven places.









With body upside down we made some more adjustments. The closer the fit, the easier it will be to weld back together.









More trimming.


​


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

And some final pics... 










Here it is back on the chassis after the body halves have been tack welded back together.









Sorry for the half-shadow shot, but you should be able to see the new profile.









I like how the hood drops down behind the headlights.









I'm really happy with the way this turned out. Now to finish welding everything and get the bodywork done. Lots of work to do.​


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Oh my gosh! How sweet is this project. Wow, Lots of work. How do you manage to fit the area up front that is no longer matched? 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Oh my gosh! How sweet is this project. Wow, Lots of work. How do you manage to fit the area up front that is no longer matched?
> 
> Pete



The lower offset wheel well section will be cut out and moved to match the upper section contour. Then, a piece will be made to fill in where the original piece used to be.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

I have been and will continue to watch with great interest. 

Thank you. 

Pete


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet! It's looks awesome Fishguts! When I saw the first pic, I actually forgot I was looking at a reverse trike, and wondered why you didn't put the back wheels on. Then, as I scrolled down to the next one, I had a good laugh at myself.


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Fishguts,

That is a masterpiece! I'm truly amazed that you got all that done in a day. You must have some very skilled helpers. I can't wait to see the body in paint.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Started welding things together today, shaving off the door hinges on one side and the rain gutter too. Then I fixed the misalignment in the front wheel well where the angle section caused about an inch of overbite with the top half of the body overhanging the bottom. I cut out the corner and moved it forward and then added filler pieces.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Sweet, more images. I see what you did. I understand. love this project. Love the learning. Now to get some practice in and see what I can do. Watching this gets some ideas going too. Makes a bit more confident that I can do this and if I screw something up I could just re-weld it. 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Sweet, more images. I see what you did. I understand. love this project. Love the learning. Now to get some practice in and see what I can do. Watching this gets some ideas going too. Makes a bit more confident that I can do this and if I screw something up I could just re-weld it.
> 
> Pete



It's only metal!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> It's only metal!


That's what I just posted in the Inhaler's thread, because we had a little glitch...  Cut 'em up!


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Oh no, it's more than Just metal. It is after all VW and you can't forget the artistry in the project too. In the end it will be a masterpiece. No doubt. 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Oh no, it's more than Just metal. It is after all VW and you can't forget the artistry in the project too. In the end it will be a masterpiece. No doubt.
> 
> Pete



Thanks for the encouraging words, but with me there's always a fine line between "masterpiece" and disasterpiece"!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

And here is one side finished off. It turned out real smoooooth.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

All I can do is  Nice.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


>


Fantastic work! That is brilliant!

The front kinda reminds me of Razor from Robot Wars.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Fantastic work! That is brilliant!
> 
> The front kinda reminds me of Razor from Robot Wars.



ha ha ha that's too cool. I need some kind of a spring loaded stinger deal that can shoot out of the top!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

I wasn't satisfied with the profile in the back and decided to expand the metal on one side and shrink it on the other about a 1/2". It worked out good.


















There now, all better.​


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm probably boring people with these posts as they don't seem to have much to do with building an electric vehicle, but bear with me, these steps will eventually lead to a completed EV, I promise! 

I wanted to clean up the rear wheel well openings, perhaps welding over the fender mount nuts, but finally decided just to cut the whole works out and start from scratch. The underlying structure wasn't the same on both sides and I had hacked the area to death when I recontoured everything.

After cutting everything away I made a framework out of 3/16 rod. Then I made some paper patterns. Hopefully over the next few days I'll get the pieces cut and welded in.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm learning more watching this thread than any other, that's for sure! Keep posting those pics and details!


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## Square (Feb 15, 2009)

Great work! your body work is far from boring.
Thank you for changing the rear deck lid, I think it turned out really nice!
the wedged section was mind blowing! 
C


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, that's going to be nice in back fishguts. You almost had to do that since you went so far with the rest of the body. Can't wait to see the metal work.


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## hardwired (Sep 11, 2007)

Please keep posting your progress regardless if it is body or traction work. Love the Voltsrat! Thank you.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement! You get in the middle of something like this and begin to wonder if you'll EVER get it done, but bit by bit you get there.

I had all of one and half hours available today for Voltsrat, but managed to get one side tacked in and the other side fully welded.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

That's bootyful!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Sweet look!

That is inspiring. I'm not a big 3 wheel fan but I am a big Beetle fan having owned a '59, '60, '63, and '64. My previous work was a conservative version of Cal Look (left on the side body trim and ran some VW type wheel.) Well, except the '64 which is the buggy in my avatar. I've been feeling Roadster style for a new direction. I love the style of the Hebmuller too. 

I wonder if there is a way to adapt the W deck lid trick to the full width body? I like the idea of a 2 seat roadster with a very open back end to show off an electric motor. A nice central area to hide a battery pack is a plus of 2 seat styling. Hmm...


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Sweet look!
> 
> That is inspiring. I'm not a big 3 wheel fan but I am a big Beetle fan having owned a '59, '60, '63, and '64. My previous work was a conservative version of Cal Look (left on the side body trim and ran some VW type wheel.) Well, except the '64 which is the buggy in my avatar. I've been feeling Roadster style for a new direction. I love the style of the Hebmuller too.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to adapt the W deck lid trick to the full width body? I like the idea of a 2 seat roadster with a very open back end to show off an electric motor. A nice central area to hide a battery pack is a plus of 2 seat styling. Hmm...


It would be a real challenge to widen a W lid for a standard width Bug to fit as a deck like on mine. I just got lucky as the width came out real close (after I had narrowed the body 16"). The W lid has compound curves and the distinctive center section (which makes the "W" and probably gave the car the "beetle" name in the first place) would look really odd widened. I've seen a widened newer style lid and, of course, it flattens out in the middle with the added piece. I guess you could cut out the "W" center section, widen the indented side pieces and weld the center back in, then recreate the curved indents. That would be a real feat. I'm thinking the way to get the contours right would be to use an English wheel to make new indented side panels instead of trying to patch together the original metal.

I wasn't a big fan of three wheelers either until I built a VW roadster, perhaps similar to what you're describing, and found there was no way I'd ever be able to get it licensed for the road in MA. I named it "Ratgutz" and it was a blast to build, but I ended up parting it out. Bits of it live on in Voltsrat which is considered a motorcycle here and much easier to get licensed. I practically memorized the RMV regs for motorcycles, so this vehicle will comply. Be sure to check with your motor vehicle dept.

It was a cool VW and a fun project though:


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

It is actually the other way around in Washington. So long as I leave the vehicle recognizable as a VW Beetle and don't tamper with the frame VIN I don't have any vehicle inspection. So long as I'm using a vehicle frame from a "recognized manufacturer" the result is considered to be that vehicle. My Buggy is legally a 1964 Beetle 2-door Sedan. Every year it gets cased by the police for no seat belts. A cop passing me will look in and see me un-belted, then fall back back behind me for a couple minutes. After running the plate he finds out it's a '64 (seat belts where first required in '65.) Then he takes off leaving me alone. It is quite funny to watch.

If I make a motorcycle I would need an inspection to change vehicle type. No straddling and no handlebars is going to run amok with state laws.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

EVfun said:


> It is actually the other way around in Washington. So long as I leave the vehicle recognizable as a VW Beetle and don't tamper with the frame VIN I don't have any vehicle inspection. So long as I'm using a vehicle frame from a "recognized manufacturer" the result is considered to be that vehicle. My Buggy is legally a 1964 Beetle 2-door Sedan. Every year it gets cased by the police for no seat belts. A cop passing me will look in and see me un-belted, then fall back back behind me for a couple minutes. After running the plate he finds out it's a '64 (seat belts where first required in '65.) Then he takes off leaving me alone. It is quite funny to watch.
> 
> If I make a motorcycle I would need an inspection to change vehicle type. No straddling and no handlebars is going to run amok with state laws.


I actually straddle the VW tunnel, but our code makes no mention of this, nor does it say you have to have handlebars. I figure I'll build it as close to the code as I can and then make adjustments if need be. I already have the parts to convert it to handlebars if necessary. I guess I could show the progress photos to the RMV and get their input.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I forgot the exact details of WA motorcycle code, I think it was a about riding in a saddle astride the vehicle. At any rate I remember clearly that it made tadpole motorcycles difficult to fit with state code (one built like a quad except with a single rear wheel would be interesting and I think legal.) A Corbin Sparrow would not be registered in WA if it was a home-built.

So long as it is a body recognizable as Beetle based and sitting on the Beetle frame there is no inspection. That makes 4-wheels the easy way to go Washington state. How often are vehicle modifications the cause of an accident anyway? Don't get too carried away because the police can pull you over and give you a fix-it ticket. They have never bothered me about the lack of an outside rear view mirror on the buggy.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Finished up the wheel wells and the cockpit surround plus a hundred (at least it feels like it!) other spots. I'll soon be ready to weld the interior structure together.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks so smooth. Its a good shape.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I can't remember, is it going to be painted or flat black?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> I can't remember, is it going to be painted or flat black?



Paint possibilities are evolving, but I'm now leaning to making it shiny ... so long as the body keeps progressing in that direction. If I can get it perfect I'll throw on the gloss, if not, I may go with Hotrod Flatz, which is more of a satin. I've painted a dozen or so cars, including flame jobs, and know how perfect the body has to be, especially with darker colors. The challenge with Voltsrat is that it has had so many modifications. There are weld seams everywhere. So far, it's shaping up nice. I'm toying with the idea of black/maroon with the black maybe being satin finish and the maroon gloss because I think the contrast might look good. Here's the most recent concept:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


>


Now that is lovely!
A serious bit of Art Deco streamlining.

Are you allowed an illuminated glass hood mascot in the style of Lalique?









Or something like this:









Or maybe Todd can CNC an electric spark from billet aluminium?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Paint possibilities are evolving, but I'm now leaning to making it shiny ... Here's the most recent concept:


I love it! Keep blocking it out man, you gotta paint it after showing us that! 

After seeing the results of the new deck and the wedge section, I was sitting here looking at the pics thinking there's no way I wouldn't put a spit shine on that one! 




Woodsmith said:


> ...Or maybe Todd can CNC an electric spark from billet aluminium?


Maybe?!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Maybe?!!!


Maybe I'll get a commission????

It'll need a wood dash and I am sure that there is some wood over the back too.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Those hood ornaments are sweeeeet! The plan is to make it something of a flashback to the 20's-30's. Yep, that's wood on the rear deck ... or maybe faux wood as I have a friend who knows how to paint boat-style wood grain decks, complete with white seams and "plugs". I hadn't considered wood on the dash, but hey, that's a great idea. I'm modifying a '57 Chevy dash cluster for my gauges - it's essentially three raised rings and although it's from the 50's, it does look really cool. I'm cutting away the lower section where the steering column would normally go. In this vehicle, the steering column will come through the bottom half of the center ring.

In keeping with the low profile style, maybe no hood ornament, but a lightning bolt hood handle would be way cool ... hmmmm ...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I was also thinking, in that Art Deco theme, of glowing radio valves.









Not energy efficient but would look great either in the dash or pretending to be the controller.

Hmmm, there's a thought....I wonder if it is possible to have a valve stage on a controller. A period look controller as opposed to the modern contemporary look of a Soliton1.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Those glowing tubes are so cool ... maybe I should go Steampunk!

To be honest, the thought has crossed my twisted mind...

Trimmed the windshield posts to match the angle of the upper body line, made caps and zapped them in place.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I love steampunk! I wish I could stop being so serious all the time and have fun with it on a project. I always start off thinking rat rod or steampunk, and end up on the other side of the spectrum...


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Perhaps your speed/current can be displayed in Nixie Tubes in the dash? http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html

Once again, not the most efficient, but since when does efficiency beat style?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Perhaps your speed/current can be displayed in Nixie Tubes in the dash? http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html
> 
> Once again, not the most efficient, but since when does efficiency beat style?



Now aren't they neat?! Wonder if I could line six vertical nixie tubes in a row, one for each battery so that each would read 0-9 indicating level of charge? Once they dropped to 7 or so I'd know it's time for a recharge. I'd just need to figure out how to wire them up.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

There are a few DIY Nixie clocks out there, which you can copy the tube driver and power supply portions from. Then you just need some LM3914 or 15 VU/level meter chips to provide the signal to the drivers that turn on each digit. Whatever cell-level or battery-level monitoring you already have in place might have an isolated voltage reading output, and that can be used to feed an op-amp to scale the voltage for each cell/battery to the LM39xx chip so that it reads the way you want it to, with zero at below LVC, 1 at LVC, 9 at HVC, and everything else scaled in between.

If your cells don't have isolated voltage outputs on their monitors (or there are no monitors), then you will either need to build each Nixie display separate and isolated from all the others (and probably isolate their power supplies from each other for safety), or you will need to create the op-amp circuit so that the battery side is isolated from the meter input side.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Don't forget the high voltage! Those tubes don't light up without that! I've got a handful of tubes, but my other projects keep getting in the way of me doing something neat with them.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Very intriguing...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Don't forget the high voltage! Those tubes don't light up without that! I've got a handful of tubes, but my other projects keep getting in the way of me doing something neat with them.


Hmmmm, a good reason to design pack voltage at 170v then.

I like the idea of a nixie tube display. It would be like building a modern EV that looks like it came out of Jules Verne novel.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Hmmmm, a good reason to design pack voltage at 170v then.
> 
> I like the idea of a nixie tube display. It would be like building a modern EV that looks like it came out of Jules Verne novel.



I'd really like to do that - make a wood rack to mount them on with some brass brackets underneath and let all the wires come down through the rack and feed into the dash. It could be real Jules Vernish. Problem is, I am such and electronics dummy. I'd need a simple schematic with everything in plain English. The fanciest electronics work I've done is to build a couple preamps for acoustic upright bases - real beginner stuff.


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## Bottomfeeder (Jun 13, 2008)

Nixie tubes themselves are not difficult, you just need to use a transistor on each number. When the gate of that transistor gets voltage, it grounds the number and it lights up. The tricky part is going to be figuring out how to get the appropriate signal to the tubes. This is where I'd have to spend a few days googling and combing schematics myself to figure out how to generate a decimal output of your current, or speed, or whatever. But, I'm certain that it's doable.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Don't forget the high voltage! Those tubes don't light up without that!


That's why I recommended looking at the DIY Nixie clocks; they'll have that in there. There are even a couple of Nixie wristwatch projects somewhere on the web.



Bottomfeeder said:


> This is where I'd have to spend a few days googling and combing schematics myself to figure out how to generate a decimal output of your current, or speed, or whatever.


That's why I recommended the LM3914/5, at least for the way Fishguts described wanting his to work, using just one Nixie per cell (or battery) with a 0-9 level. Just make sure you use the chip in dot mode instead of bar, and drive the Nixies with separate transistors or appropriate driver chip. 

To display numeric values for it, such as an actual voltage or current readout numerically, there were once chips made for this purpose. TI had at least a couple, and Intersil as well, I think. Probably not made anymore, but test equipment that used these tubes typically has those chips, too. Those that don't used various (often darlington) drivers to drive the individual digits, and a BCD-input individual-output chip (or same made from discrete parts) to convert A/D chip outputs for Nixie display.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Bottomfeeder said:


> Don't forget the high voltage! Those tubes don't light up without that! I've got a handful of tubes, but my other projects keep getting in the way of me doing something neat with them.



Steep learning curve for me here, so I really appreciate all the expert advice. One thing is for sure, a row of nixie tubes used as voltmeters would be awesome and I definitely want to do this.

I'll be running 6 12v SLA batteries, so maybe this 12VDC - 180VDC converter will do the trick. It's supposed to be able to power 6 nixies. Does this look like a good first component for me to buy? (scroll about halfway down the page)...

http://www.techkits.com/


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## CrunchTime (Feb 13, 2009)

I know nothing about these except how cool they'd look, but how will they stand up to the vibration in a moving car?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

CrunchTime said:


> I know nothing about these except how cool they'd look, but how will they stand up to the vibration in a moving car?


Could always have a rubber mount.

It would look different with a whole display on a suspended rubber mount and then twisted pairs of fabric wrapped wires flying out in all directions to other 'gadgets' that make it work.
No circuit boards, just wires.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Something like the cover of that old vinyl album with the strawman/scarecrow made of wires and parts, something like "switched on bluegrass"? 

From what my dad told me of his time as a tech in the Air Force in the 60s, they used Nixies in various cockpit displays. I'm sure the military stuff was supposed to be better grade than the commercial stuff, but all the HP test equipment ones I've got and others I've seen all seem pretty tough.


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## electrabishi (Mar 11, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I was also thinking, in that Art Deco theme, of glowing radio valves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude! I'm there with you, lets do a tube controller... although I should mention that the 4MW tubes we were running in the Coast Guard for Loran sites started requiring Leaded glass around the control room to prevent x-Ray contamination :-( Maybe I need to question to the government why I can't grow hair on my head anymore ;-)

Mike


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Plugged a bunch of holes and welded the seams through the front wheel wells where I sectioned the body. Also welded across the seam in the front bulkhead. Next, I need to trim the part of the bulkhead that fits down over the tunnel and the frame rails and box it to make it stronger.

I'm taking it to a VW show in a week and a half. Think I'll have it ready by then? 

The chair is where I park my sorry old butt so I can more easily weld and grind the lower parts of the body.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> ...I'm taking it to a VW show in a week and a half. Think I'll have it ready by then? ...


I hope you mean in primer. I'd hate to see you come this far and rush the end result like you're on one of those time-crunch TV shows! 

If you do mean all welded up, primered, and back together - heck yeah!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Sure feels good to finally gets this thing to this point.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Simply awesome fishguts!!! Awesome! 

It's incredible how far you can go with a Bug and it still look like a Bug! That deck lid is the icing on the cake.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> That deck lid is the icing on the cake.


It really looks the part, doesn't it? It could have been pressed out in the bug factory from new that way.


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## hardwired (Sep 11, 2007)

Looking very good. Do you know a local pin striper to get some detail put on the body?


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

hardwired said:


> Looking very good. Do you know a local pin striper to get some detail put on the body?



Been thinking about that. I've done some striping but I'm no pro that's for sure! After next weekend I'll have some pics of it at a VW show ... with it's new paint scheme. But I ain't tellin' yet!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got a little done before the rain moved in. Enlarged the opening in the front bulkhead that settles down over the tunnel and frame rails (channeled 2") to provide space for a gasket. Since this is a double-walled part of the body and I cut the heater channel open in the process, I boxed it in. When the rain stops, I need to open up the forward body mount holes (two out of four left) with a Turbo Punk hole-makin' bit and weld in a couple 10mm nuts. Or were these mount bolts 12mm? I forget.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Got the interior structure welded up. You can see that things have to be bent/hammered into place a bit because of the angle section that runs through the body. This throws things off some, but it doesn't matter as interior panels will eventually cover all this. Next, I need to weld some steel rod and flat stock in the door seams in several places and that should about do it.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Door seams were reinforced in a couple places:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Neat welding. Are you definately sure you don't need that door to open?

Are you putting all the door glass and winder mech back in? It would look good with all the interior trim in one piece so no door card.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Neat welding. Are you definately sure you don't need that door to open?
> 
> Are you putting all the door glass and winder mech back in? It would look good with all the interior trim in one piece so no door card.



I'm hoping I can hop over the side to get in and out ... new trick for my new hips.

No glass or mechanism ... I welded the tops of the doors over.

Anyway, who ever heard of a motorcycle with wind up windows!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> I'm hoping I can hop over the side to get in and out ... new trick for my new hips...


Put a scissor lift, swivel, and slides, on the seat. Hit the button, the seat comes up, swivels, and slides out, ready to whisk you away!


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Fishguts

My car won't have doors either, I have been thinking about how to get my aged carcass in and out.

The issue is that the steering wheel is over the bit of floor I want to stand on
I have been thinking about detachable wheels, moving the steering column up, all sorts of dubious ideas

Then I started thinking about where to put my feet, with the steering wheel in its operational position I would have to stand on the seat

The PLAN

I will attach a piece of waterproof cloth under the front of the seat,
before getting in I will lay it on top of my seat squab
I will then stand on the squab - protected by the cloth
As I lower myself into the car I will push the cloth to the floor just in front of the squab and sit on the nice clean seat

If my protector get dirty I will take it out and wash it

a bit lower tech than Todshotrods's suggestion!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Both good suggestions! I like the scissors lift idea - maybe an ejection seat?! I guess that might be a problem in the garage, though. Ouch. 

I built a low slung, chopped and sectioned hot rod not long ago with the doors welded shut, so this is a similar deal. I grabbed the top edge of the body and threw my legs over the side and stepped on the seat then lowered myself in place. Getting out was the reverse procedure.

But now I'm a little older and arthritis happened and new hips were installed 4 months ago (working fine). I'm pretty sure I can get my legs over the side and I have the option of stepping on the seat or the battery boxes on either side of it. I'll just have to see what is most comfortable. I do have a plan "B" if getting in is a problem - come up with some sort of step/toehold on the side.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ...a bit lower tech than Todshotrods's suggestion!


Eminently more practical as well!  Another thing you can do, with the lower tech approach, to help is consider a small (maybe fold-up) step to go on the ground. You may be surprised how much difference six inches can make. I have had some form of doorless roadster body on my project since I started it in 2005 (though it will ultimately have doors now). I normally have some nailed up wood blocks or something on the ground to help straddle the body when getting in and out - something that happens frequently when building. Put a leash on it, and you can pull it up (carefully) before lowering yourself down into the seat.

Another trick - a butt pad on the top edge of the body. Google some old race cars, you should be able to find pics of them.

Fishguts, with your fab skills you can take that toe hold/step idea to extremes. I sketched a few fold down and slide out ideas, that could be deployed/retracted from inside the vehicle. I have no idea where those sketches are though. I liked the slide out ideas best because, I had more freedom with the deisgn on the outside of the car.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

How about a side step like on the Blower Bentley?









For the high tech approach I am sure that Todd can help you CAD a set up like this: YouTube from 2:20 - 3:00


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> How about a side step like on the Blower Bentley?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh that Bently is so cool. Nifty little step ... hmmmm maybe.

And the Thunderbirds - talk about a flashback!! I confess, I watched the whole clip. And now I want that chute loading deal that would drop me right in the seat! I also want a rocket to shoot out of my swimming pool. Guess I better get a pool first.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Time to catch up a little.

I finished the bulk of the bodywork and tried out a two-tone primer paint scheme.












Welded up a seat mount.











Hacked up a 57 Chevy dash.




























Wheel is from my boat parts stash


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Then got it to Litchfield CT for a Father's Day show.













































These guys are saying "What the ...??"













Yeh, they stuck the volksrods at the far back of the show and didn't even bother mowing the grass. Somehow that was fitting.


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## hardwired (Sep 11, 2007)

Looks Great!! I have to say the way the rear wheel tucks in and disappears as you pan around from back to front is very strange.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks so good, glad you made it to the show.

I can see the thing with the disappearing back wheel. 

I was wondering how it would look with a fat chopper rear tyre on it with the round tread profile? 








It would look like it was cut from a sphere and the rounded look would go with the rounded body work.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Awesome fishguts! Did you have the motor hooked up to drive it in, or just there on display? I like the 57 gauge pod.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> That looks so good, glad you made it to the show.
> 
> I can see the thing with the disappearing back wheel.
> 
> I was wondering how it would look with a fat chopper rear tyre on it with the round tread profile?



Well, it would have to be the same size as the tire on it now because the wheel can't be changed - it's custom made to center the tire in the chassis. I don't know - it has car tires in front, so I guess I'll stay with a car tire in the rear. I actually like the flat tread. Guess I'm more of a hot rodder than a biker!







toddshotrods said:


> Awesome fishguts! Did you have the motor hooked up to drive it in, or just there on display? I like the 57 gauge pod.



Rolled it on and off the trailer - no motor, trans or batteries in it yet. I almost have enough $$ for the batteries saved up so I need to mock some up out of foam core and start building battery boxes. Also have to get some machining done to set up the chain drive.


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## Hacker (Jul 5, 2010)

It may be a bit late for this suggestion since you have so much of the fab work done already, but how about airbags to lower the trike to the pavement? You could use an old refridgerator pump running off the Harley gearbox into a small air cylinder...


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Hacker said:


> It may be a bit late for this suggestion since you have so much of the fab work done already, but how about airbags to lower the trike to the pavement? You could use an old refridgerator pump running off the Harley gearbox into a small air cylinder...



Now that's what I like, a real hot rod/custom suggestion. Sounds like you've been there.

Bags would be cool and a VW front end can be modified to work really well with them. The body of this thing is channeled 2" and it has 2 1/2" dropped spindles and the beam has 4" of adjustable drop built in plus the coilovers are adjustable, too. As it is, I can lay the beam on the ground, but not at the push of a button, of course. The downside of bags on a vehicle like this with an open front end is that they are big and bulky looking, easy to hide under fenders, but on this trike they'd be hanging out.

I had Voltsrat to a car show a couple weeks ago and was able to stand back and give it a good look for the first time (photos posted above). We have a small piece of property and the only vehicle space is between our house and the neighbor's wall. Once I eyeballed it out in the open it became obvious to me that this thing is taking on a real hot rod character and that I'm not going to be satisfied with a low performance, limited range vehicle. There's just too much hot rod in my blood (I've built a varied bunch of them over the years). So ... there's been a major turn in the road ...

I ditched the Harley trans, rear mounted motor idea, picked up an RX4 transmission and VW bus bell housing which I'll mount to a 1600 aircooled VW motor (gasp!) which will be mounted up front with shaft drive to the Honda swing arm. It means widening my frame rails a bit and probably removing the 2" body channel. I'll be pulling the body back a couple inches to provide a little more room up front. It should look pretty cool as the VW motor's heads will hang out the sides of the body with dual carbs out in the open air. I imagine the exhaust will run down the side.

This layout (but with an electric motor up front) was my original plan before coming up with the transverse Harley trans idea. I was thinking of a convertible driveline idea where I could, without a huge amount of trouble, switch from ICE to electric and back when I wanted to. So ... that means although I'm setting it up for a gas powered motor at present, the next stage is adapting my electric motor to the VW bellhousing and creating a unitized control panel that can be dropped into the body, along with a battery rack to make the switch.

I've messed with VW's for a lot of years and pulling a motor out of one, even in a sedan, takes me about 30 minutes. In this trike I'd say I could do it in maybe 15. Set up right, the whole conversion would maybe take
an hour or so, not that it really matters as the point wouldn't be to make the swap super fast, just as easy as possible.

Anyway ... long answer, right? ... the 1600 even in stock trim will be a kick-butt motor in a vehicle this light (under a 1,000lbs.) and it should be a blast to drive, belching out a cloud of noxious fumes, burning holes in the ozone layer and searing a huge carbon footprint in Mother Earth while assuring a dependency on oil for at least the next 100 years.

Oh boy, I'm going to get in SO much trouble for saying that here! 

But seriously, the VW motor in proper tune and running through the 2.75 Honda rear ratio should get some pretty impressive gas mileage and still be fun to drive.

OK, the electric conversion part. In electric mode, I'm still going to want hot rod performance and this means lead acid is out of the picture - just can't pack in enough volts or AH in this tiny body. So that means the big step up to lithium and a bigger controller and a lot more $$. That will take some time as I am a man of limited financial means, but I anticipate the cost to keep coming down, so it's quite likely on the horizon.

In the meantime, I can get my little hot rod on the road, registered and all, run it around and have some fun and get the kinks out and begin gearing up for buying batteries and designing the easy-conversion components.

So this will be a hybrid with the slight inconvenience of having to pull the motor and install another one when you switch! Try that going down the road!

Well anyway, I'm having a good time with it.

Did that answer the airbag question?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

We must be swimming in the same pond fish, because I have to admit to having similar thoughts myself. I am just toying with ideas though, nothing definite. I thought about going hybrid with the Inhaler. My idea though is to use the electric motor as the transmission. I would always need the e-motor to get moving, but also have the choice of when to use the gas engine. I would have a little 4.5 or 5.5" racing clutch to connect them, so I could rev the gas engine for fun, and disconnect it when in all electric mode. For highway trips, it would have nearly unlimited mileage because all the e-motor would be doing is getting it back up to speed after refueling.

I just haven't convinced myself to move away from all-electric though. I have the powertrain pretty much worked out in my head, to study its feasibility, except for some kind of electronic interface to marry the two systems. I would definitely run EFI on the ICE, and Big Sol on the electric motor. Those two need to be in agreememnt. A radicaly over-square IC engine that could turn to 8-9K, combined with an 11-inch series torque motor, would be wicked. Hmmmm


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

50% ICE, 50% EV -> 100% maniacs. 

Some guys over here in Sweden have added "mile extenders" on their Renault Clios by hanging a small gas powered generator on the towbar (I hope this is the right word, google translate assures me it is...). I think (this is from memory only, so don't take my word for it) they get something between double and triple range of the car since the small gas generator can't quite provide the power needed, but that's nothing a small coffee break by the road can't fix.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2010)

Fishguts,

Well if you whip out a few projects like this for others and sell them I am quite sure you could make enough money in real short order for those lithium batteries. Regardless of what power plant you use, your work has been a great inspiration to many. I plan on showing every single photo to my boy to give him some ideas and to inspire him to grab that pencil and build something. It will for sure get him moving on learning how to weld sheet metal. I still like the all electric drive setup but if you go with dual and use that VW engine I won't have any hard feelings. 

Pete


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> We must be swimming in the same pond fish, because I have to admit to having similar thoughts myself. I am just toying with ideas though, nothing definite. I thought about going hybrid with the Inhaler. My idea though is to use the electric motor as the transmission. I would always need the e-motor to get moving, but also have the choice of when to use the gas engine. I would have a little 4.5 or 5.5" racing clutch to connect them, so I could rev the gas engine for fun, and disconnect it when in all electric mode. For highway trips, it would have nearly unlimited mileage because all the e-motor would be doing is getting it back up to speed after refueling.
> 
> I just haven't convinced myself to move away from all-electric though. I have the powertrain pretty much worked out in my head, to study its feasibility, except for some kind of electronic interface to marry the two systems. I would definitely run EFI on the ICE, and Big Sol on the electric motor. Those two need to be in agreememnt. A radicaly over-square IC engine that could turn to 8-9K, combined with an 11-inch series torque motor, would be wicked. Hmmmm



Wow, you can do that - put the electric motor in the driveline with an ICE? I never thought of that. hmmm So, a clutch between the two would allow the electric motor to run without the compression load of the gas motor. Then if you are running on the gas motor, the electric motor would become a generator (right?) and could charge the batteries? This is pretty intriguing.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

gottdi said:


> Fishguts,
> 
> Well if you whip out a few projects like this for others and sell them I am quite sure you could make enough money in real short order for those lithium batteries. Regardless of what power plant you use, your work has been a great inspiration to many. I plan on showing every single photo to my boy to give him some ideas and to inspire him to grab that pencil and build something. It will for sure get him moving on learning how to weld sheet metal. I still like the all electric drive setup but if you go with dual and use that VW engine I won't have any hard feelings.
> 
> Pete



That was a heck of a nice thing to say, Pete, very humbling. I'm glad you're enjoying watching this thing come together as much as I do. It's kinda taken on a life of its own and at times I feel like I'm just following along. I'll post some progress photos as it comes together even though it won't be electric at this stage. I'll have to be discreet though or maybe I'll get kicked out of here!


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Wow, you can do that - put the electric motor in the driveline with an ICE? I never thought of that. hmmm So, a clutch between the two would allow the electric motor to run without the compression load of the gas motor...


Why not, it's just a coupling system to marry two components - EVers do this on a regular basis. I would just be marrying two power sources, rather than a power source and a transmission.

You could actually do it easier than I could, because your ICE is air-cooled. No cooling systems, much smaller, lighter, etc. Put the V-dub engine up front, as you suggested, and the e-motor in back with a drivshaft or torque tube connecting them. That way, maybe you can use a regular V-dub clutch? I thought about putting a small electric actuator on the cluch instead of a hydraulic system. That way you can hit the button and conect/disconnect, but you may not be able to do that if you're using a transmission to shift gears.





fishguts said:


> ...Then if you are running on the gas motor, the electric motor would become a generator (right?) and could charge the batteries? This is pretty intriguing.


Naw, too many loses - too inefficient. Maybe with an AC or SepEx you could use regen to get a little charge, or let the batteries charge while sitting still. That would also require a second clutch type setup to disconnect the e-motor from the drivetrain though. Too much hasse for such a little gain.

My e-motor would always be hooked up. The ICE would be selectable, via the small race clutch. The e-motor would always be needed to accelerate from a standing start (no transmission).

I doubt I'll ever do it because of all the ancillary systems an ICE needs. I originally considered electric to get rid of them, this would be taking a step backwards. It was fun to think of, and mentally hash out though.  I do have an idea for a different type of, air-cooled, ICE. We'll see, but more than likely I'll be building a pure EV.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Why not, it's just a coupling system to marry two components - EVers do this on a regular basis. I would just be marrying two power sources, rather than a power source and a transmission.
> 
> You could actually do it easier than I could, because your ICE is air-cooled. No cooling systems, much smaller, lighter, etc. Put the V-dub engine up front, as you suggested, and the e-motor in back with a drivshaft or torque tube connecting them. That way, maybe you can use a regular V-dub clutch? I thought about putting a small electric actuator on the cluch instead of a hydraulic system. That way you can hit the button and conect/disconnect, but you may not be able to do that if you're using a transmission to shift gears.
> 
> ...




You are a real inspiration and you've got me thinking ...

I'd need to get an electric motor with a through-shaft of course, unlike the one I have now with a shaft at just one end, but with a tranny behind the ICE and the electric motor next, all I'd need to do is pop it in neutral to disconnect the two.

Danged if I don't have room to put the electric motor right at the swing arm and then a short chain drive over to the drive shaft. Easy peasy.

This is really doable.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> You are a real inspiration and you've got me thinking ...Easy peasy.
> 
> This is really doable.


"I love it when a plan comes together." Be careful, finding inspiration in what goes on in my head is a slippery slope. 

Seriously though, I am glad it's something that will work for you. A hybrid system will make Voltsrat that much cooler. You can sneak up on people, then fire the V-dub engine!


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## Voltswagen (Nov 13, 2008)

Fish
I have been following your build with interest and ........Wow!
Very creative. I'm particularily impressed by the single driving wheel.

I'm a Beetlemaniac myself. I had been restoring vintage American cars since the 60's but stopped in the early 90's due to cost. 
Then I discovered The Bug. I started with my wifes old 71 sedan. I was amazed at the parts availability and inexpensive cost.
I have totally restored 4 since then. I do body off restorations, they're easy in my estimation. I still have my ICE powered 73 with suicide doors and an electric 77 Vert I completed last year.

And yes, when I enter the EV in shows they just don't know where to put me. I almost went to the Litchfield Show this year but my tow vehicle was in the shop and from Jersey its just a bit too far for the EV.
Well done Fish -
Roy


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

fishguts said:


> You are a real inspiration and you've got me thinking ...
> 
> I'd need to get an electric motor with a through-shaft of course, unlike the one I have now with a shaft at just one end, but with a tranny behind the ICE and the electric motor next, all I'd need to do is pop it in neutral to disconnect the two.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a plan.

The only two things to check on.
What is the max rpm the motor will experience as the second from last link in the drive line?
How will the transmission cope with being driven at speed from the output shaft while the input is stationary? Most cars have a limit to how far and how fast you can tow them, in neutral on their drive wheels, without proper lubrication.

Otherwise I can't see anything wrong with the plan.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> ...What is the max rpm the motor will experience as the second from last link in the drive line?...


I thought about that one with his layout, but figured it's just a matter of matching components. Shouldn't be a problem for fishguts, but good to mention.





Woodsmith said:


> ...How will the transmission cope with being driven at speed from the output shaft while the input is stationary? Most cars have a limit to how far and how fast you can tow them, in neutral on their drive wheels, without proper lubrication...


That's usually with automatics because they are usually lubricated by a pump, that is turned by the torque converter. With most manuals the gears are basically spinning in the gear oil, or motor oil (as with my Honda) reservoir.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

It seems that a suitable sepex motor would be the way to go here. With the right controller you could do regen and keep the batteries charged whenever you had a bit of excess power from your flat four. then disconnect the electric motor from the trans and quietly cruise the shows. I'm sure that there are suitable adapter plates to put a small trans onto a VW engine. This would be a killer drivetrain. Run them both together and I bet you could smoke a tire like E.J. Potter.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

What a cool discussion. I have so much to learn but that's half the fun.

And Roy - your cars are awesome. 

Max RPM would be in fourth gear as I'm running a four-speed and it's a one-to-one ratio in fourth. The Honda is a 2.75 ratio and the wheel is 16" but with a 55 series low profile tire. I'm guessing 65mph cruising speed should be at a fairly low RPM, maybe something like 2,000-2,200? Of course, you'd rev things up shifting through the gears. A basically stock VW motor is pretty comfortable with 4,000-5,000 rpm shifts, but then, the shaft coming out of the trans isn't turning that fast in lower gears. 


Sweated my butt off but I had a little time mid afternoon to hack up the chassis some. I cut out the corner where the Harley trans mount was and removed the seat mount and then welded in a diagonal to match the other side. Now it's ready to have the frame rails sized up, cut and welded in place. You can see there's a nice empty spot ahead of the swing arm where an electric motor could go ...


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah! The process is underway!!! This just multiplies Voltsrats cool factor by a 1000! 

I was thinking about this off and on through the day. Are you going to go with an electric motor big enough to move the car direct drive, or use ICE and E-motor together? I asked because you're putting the motor after the transmission. The car has to be pretty light, so a 9" or 11" motor should be up to the task, with your rear gearing. By my calculations, I plan to run somewhere around 3.0:1 in the Inhaler.

Also, for a way to keep them disconnected, and still be able to shift like normal, you can add an extra hand lever to the clutch pedal that you can engage to lock the clutch pedal down. Kind of like the old, under dash, twist, hand e-brake levers. One of those might even work, if you rework the spring mechanism to default in the unlocked position.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Yeah! The process is underway!!! This just multiplies Voltsrats cool factor by a 1000!
> 
> I was thinking about this off and on through the day. Are you going to go with an electric motor big enough to move the car direct drive, or use ICE and E-motor together? I asked because you're putting the motor after the transmission. The car has to be pretty light, so a 9" or 11" motor should be up to the task, with your rear gearing. By my calculations, I plan to run somewhere around 3.0:1 in the Inhaler.
> 
> Also, for a way to keep them disconnected, and still be able to shift like normal, you can add an extra hand lever to the clutch pedal that you can engage to lock the clutch pedal down. Kind of like the old, under dash, twist, hand e-brake levers. One of those might even work, if you rework the spring mechanism to default in the unlocked position.



You keep my brain turning ... or maybe twisting! 

Here's what I'm thinking ... ICE up front with trans right after, shaft + chain drive to offset electric motor, shaft from there to swing arm. Use ICE for get up and go until in fourth gear, kick it into neutral when cruising and switch to electric.

I believe what you are thinking about would place the transmission after the electric motor, right?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> You keep my brain turning ... or maybe twisting!
> 
> Here's what I'm thinking ... ICE up front with trans right after, shaft + chain drive to offset electric motor, shaft from there to swing arm. Use ICE for get up and go until in fourth gear, kick it into neutral when cruising and switch to electric.
> 
> I believe what you are thinking about would place the transmission after the electric motor, right?


Sorry, my brain was stuck in gear between my original idea and yours. I wasn't thinking that all you have to do is put it in neutral to disengage the ICE - doh!  I did think about transmission after the motor at first but, after you specified your preferred layout, I was trying to focus on that. I just missed the neutral thing.

The only problem with the 4th gear-neutral-electric thing is you're not really getting the full advantage of the (DC I assume) motor's main strengths that way. Ideally you would want to use the electric motor for stop-n-go, and the ICE to extend the range (plus add some fun, a little noise...). Even if you don't use an electric motor big enough to push the vehicle around by itself, it would supply additional torque where the ICE needs it most (getting moving) and increase fuel mileage. And, as Jim pointed out, smokey burnouts! 

If you do end up with a bigger DC motor, you have the choice of running on ICE, hybrid, or pure electric in stop-n-go traffic. You'd basically have a plug-in hybrid. Able to run for "X" amount of miles on pure electric, and pretty much unlimited on ICE power.

Either way works. It's just a matter of what your goals are. The way you're setting it up gives you options. I just wanted to point them out.

Do anymore fabrication yet?!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Picked up some goodies from a buddy of mine - a bus bellhousing and bracket, Mazda RX4 and TR6 transsmissions, a TR6 driveshaft and RX4 shifter. Looks like I'll be using the RX4.











Tried the new frame rails on for size and then fitted them and welded them in.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Engine......Transmission......Motor.......Gas Tank........batteries......Where's it all going to go? 

And then where will you sit?

This is one tight fit for all those components. 

Can't wait to see the next steps in this evolution. I'm on the edge of my seat!

Eric


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

fishguts said:


> Picked up some goodies from a buddy of mine... Looks like I'll be using the RX4...


Assuming that's the one without a bellhousing?





fishguts said:


> ...Tried the new frame rails on for size and then fitted them and welded them in.


Grab the popcorn and Pepsi guys, the show is on!  Looks great so far fish!





esoneson said:


> Engine......Transmission......Motor.......Gas Tank........batteries......Where's it all going to go?
> 
> And then where will you sit?
> 
> This is one tight fit for all those components...


Looks like plenty of room to me, but I am used to planning how to fit everything in a T-bucket tub and 30" bed.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

esoneson said:


> Engine......Transmission......Motor.......Gas Tank........batteries......Where's it all going to go?
> 
> And then where will you sit?
> 
> ...



"edge of my seat" ... me too ... the seat is a critical part of the whole design its turning out.

I've shifted to gas power for now to get it on the road. The driveline will run under the seat just after the tailshaft of the transmission. I'm actually thinking of tilting the driveline just enough to get the driveshaft under the seat and then angling it back up to the swing arm.

The electric part ... it won't be in the driveline at this stage of life, but sometime in the future the possibility may well present itself. Toddshotrods has suggested an inline dual shaft electric motor could work. I actually have room for this on the right side of the chassis beside the seat. If I go with a small lithium pack I can keep the cost down and get it all to fit and use electric for local jaunts and fire up the gas motor for longer stuff and freeway travel. So it will be a hybrid.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Assuming that's the one without a bellhousing?



Yep. The bellhousing on the other one unbolts, too, but the RX 4 is a really nice fit.

Now get this ... and honestly I don't plan this stuff and didn't know it ahead of time ... the transmission shaft on the RX4 is the same diameter as a VW shaft (I'll mic it tomorrow, but it sure do look the same with a tape measure) AND when I measured the depth of the VW bus bellhousing (which bolts right up to a Type 1 motor) and added that to the tranny, the end of the transmission shaft is within like 1/16" of the correct length! I'll just need to drill the bus bellhousing to match the RX4 bolt pattern and maybe add some washers to get it spot-on. OK, that ain't all, an RX4 clutch disc is 8.5 inches in diameter and that's darned close to VW's 215mm clutch. Looks like I'll be using a Mazda clutch in a VW pressure plate on a VW flywheel. This is just crazy easy.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Sweet! 

You can sneak up on pedestrians and cyclists in electric mode, and then fire the V-dub motor and scare the crap out of them!  Not actually recommending doing something like that (and putting the videos on YouTube), I was just saying it's possible if you're into that kind of thing...


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> Sweet!
> 
> You can sneak up on pedestrians and cyclists in electric mode, and then fire the V-dub motor and scare the crap out of them!  Not actually recommending doing something like that (and putting the videos on YouTube), I was just saying it's possible if you're into that kind of thing...



You know me too well.


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Cut a bunch of junk out of the middle.










Then dropped in a couple crossmembers. One is for the seat and the other is for the transmission mount. It's hard to see, but the framehead (what's left of it) will be boxed in and gusseted.


















Here's the transmission sitting on the mount for the first time. The shifter and mount are level, but the tranny box sits at something like a 15 degree angle. That will make adapting it to the bus bellhousing a little trickier.


















It's a tight fit, but here's where the shifter ends up. I'm hoping to use the king and queen seat now that I'm moving the body back a couple inches. Hopefully there will be enough room for my honey.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey, interesting changes to the plan!

If you have stretched it will the body still fit or are you re working it?



fishguts said:


> It's a tight fit, but here's where the shifter ends up. I'm hoping to use the king and queen seat now that I'm moving the body back a couple inches. Hopefully there will be enough room for my honey.


Looks like you'd be wanting to have, at least, a lap belt there in case of sudden stops!


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## fishguts (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Hey, interesting changes to the plan!
> 
> If you have stretched it will the body still fit or are you re working it?
> 
> ...



Tell me about it! Actually, it's looking like I'm going back to the bomber seat and seat belt because a trike builder reminded me that since trikes corner flat you need lateral support that a conventional seat can't give.

I can move the body back and forth by moving the mounts and I have room to slide it back 4". This will put the firewall right at the seam between the motor and the bellhousing which should work out well exhaust-wise and all. I have it planned so the motor can be installed and removed without removing the tie rod. In others words, 4" of clearance between the pulley and the tie rod in the installed position. I believe that's enough room to get past the flywheel and pressure plate when pulling the motor in and out.


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