# Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can
become super-ultra rate charge stations, drive in and
get your caps recharged in minutes to go another 50
miles, like a forumula-one pitstop. Pull in, stop
over the induction charger, sit for 2 minutes, then
drive off. That is the future my friends.
Jack



> --- AC DC EV <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I was talking to so CA edison here on phone .Trying
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT), Jack Murray


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can
> >become super-ultra rate charge stations, drive in and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:50:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??
> 
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT), Jack Murray


> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can
> > >become super-ultra rate charge stations, drive in and
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Phil Marino
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:58 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??
> 
> 
> 
> Neon - please read Jack's post again. He said " another 50 miles", but
> you used 200 miles to reinforce your argument. How silly of you to
> make that mistake!
> 
> That would change the results of your calculation from 1200 KW to 300
> KW. That may or may not make his scheme practical, but at least it
> accurately reflects what he said.
> 
> Phil
> 

Can't speak for Neon of course, but from my perspective his argument holds
although his sums don't represent the original scenario. IMO 200 mile range
will be required for broad acceptance of EVs. Broad acceptance is a
prerequisite for infrastructure investments of this scale. Therefore the
scheme will have to support 200 mile EVs before it will be adopted. So even
if 50 mile charging was practical, the infrastructure wouldn't be built if
200 mile charging was not.

The assumption above most open to challenge is that 50 mile EVs will never
be adopted by the mainstream. That could be solved by:

1. Gasoline climbing to $15/gallon
2. Forced re-education camps for drivers
3. Requiring people to take a 2-minute ride in an EV when renewing their
license. 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

>
> Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can
> become super-ultra rate charge stations, drive in and
> get your caps recharged in minutes to go another 50
> miles, like a forumula-one pitstop. Pull in, stop
> over the induction charger, sit for 2 minutes, then
> drive off. That is the future my friends.
> Jack

Are you being serious or sarcastic. I am sorry, no offense intended, but
I can't actually tell.

the power in a capacitor is 1/2Cv^2 so when the voltage drops in half,
the power drops by 4

Ok, first problem. My batteries if dropped in half wouldn't drive my
car, we must add a high power and wide voltage range dc-dc converter.
This is the real limitation in useing caps as primary storage device

In an advanced chemistry pack, voltage stays at 80% nominal times the
amp hours. Of the 100ah*300Volt for example we get around 80% of the
available power out without only a 20% voltage drop .8*300*80 = 19200 Wh

Lets say we have a 300V cap bank holding the same aH, voltage drops
linearly so we can average it to 225 You can only get at 1/2 the charge
so 225*50*.9 (the .9 is for a kick butt dc-dc) or 10125Wh. So this means
the caps will have to be oversized and the dc-dc will have to have a
wider range.

The construction of caps and batteries are so similar, I am expecting
the next major breakthrough to actually be a device that has both
properties. Imagine a 300V battery that can be charged up to 500 volts.
As soon as you remove the charger it shows 300V and you use it that way,
the excess charge is not avail at the terminas but keeps chargeing the
battery as you use it down. If this can be done internally without a
dc-dc....

But it goes back to why bother. This whole train of thought is based on
the need to refill in 2 min. Which if you are saying that the electric
car must do everthing and be the only solution, that "one fuel to rule
them all mindset", You are missing part of the point. Use the right
tool for the job. Use the electric car for the commuting, daily miles,
shopping etc. The reduction in pollution, heat, gas usage, means you
will be able to afford to fuel a rented hybrid for those 2 days a year
where you drive more than 100 miles at a shot.

If I have 100ah at 300V or 30kwh and I drive to 80% at 240wh/mile, I
have just driven 100 miles, that is 1.5 to 2 hours.

It is not like we hot bunk our cars, I personally spend 10 hours a day
at work and 6-8 hours a day asleep. It takes less than 2 hours to
recharge my EV from my trip to work with a 120V 15A plug and a charger
throttled down anyway. While my ridiculusly low range of under 20 miles
with a 400+ wh/mile beast is embarrassingly bad, it still does 90+% of
my driving. I have a gasser for longer miles and try to drive it once a
week at least. The difference is instead of filling it 3 times a month,
i now fill it every 3-5 months. If everyone in our little valley did
that, Today wouldn't be an unhealty air day with red flags waving and
alerts for people to stay indoors and not to excersise or do anything
that makes us breath deeply. (not kidding)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Neon's analysis was also for a SINGLE car. How often do you see just one 
car at a gas station? Now multiply those electrical demand numbers by 3-6x 
for a more realistic view of the power involved. Unless Shell stations are 
going to be running small nukes in the back...

It's very difficult to change the mindset of "an electric car would have 
to recharge in 1 min", as fossil fuels are fantastically energy dense. 
People's driving habits are also based around having to fuel every few 
days to every week or two. Habits may be harder to change than reality.

I believe driving habits in general will change as energy becomes more 
expensive. More long distance trips will be handled by rail, bus, or other 
mass transit, resulting in a more favorable outlook for the "in-town" 
nature of the current EV. Joe Sixpack will gladly charge overnight or stop 
for a 2-3 hour "quick" charge on a medium-distance trip because it saves 
him hundreds of dollars in fuel expenses.

-Adrian


>> Neon - please read Jack's post again. He said " another 50 miles", but
>> you used 200 miles to reinforce your argument. How silly of you to
>> make that mistake!
>>
>> That would change the results of your calculation from 1200 KW to 300
>> KW. That may or may not make his scheme practical, but at least it
>> accurately reflects what he said.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
> Can't speak for Neon of course, but from my perspective his argument 
> holds
> although his sums don't represent the original scenario. IMO 200 mile 
> range
> will be required for broad acceptance of EVs. Broad acceptance is a
> prerequisite for infrastructure investments of this scale. Therefore the
> scheme will have to support 200 mile EVs before it will be adopted. So 
> even
> if 50 mile charging was practical, the infrastructure wouldn't be built 
> if
> 200 mile charging was not.
>
> The assumption above most open to challenge is that 50 mile EVs will 
> never
> be adopted by the mainstream. That could be solved by:
>
> 1. Gasoline climbing to $15/gallon
> 2. Forced re-education camps for drivers
> 3. Requiring people to take a 2-minute ride in an EV when renewing their
> license. 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

I am serious. If a gas station can't recharge your EV
because they don't have the juice (and what they pipe
gas from the refinery in Texas to the station on
demand today?? they have a STORAGE system that fills
cars), what makes you think having 500,000 people
recharging their EV at home at 6pm will be any more
feasible?? Huge amounts of energy can be transmitted
very efficiently, look at the power lines coming from
a nuclear power plant. Hint, they don't use 240
volts.

If I can recharge my EV in a few minutes to go another
20 miles, that gets me where I need to go, without
having to haul 1000lbs of batteries around all the
time to make the 40 mile trip my 20 mile pack can't
do.

A car at half the price of another but only goes 20
miles and can recharge in a few minutes at the charge
station for a small fee, will be bought in large
numbers, and in fact, is quite feasible even today.

Jack



> --- Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:29:38 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??
> 
> >
> > Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can
> > become super-ultra rate charge stations, drive in and
> > get your caps recharged in minutes to go another 50
> > miles, like a forumula-one pitstop. Pull in, stop
> > over the induction charger, sit for 2 minutes, then
> > drive off. That is the future my friends.
> > Jack
> 
> Are you being serious or sarcastic. I am sorry, no offense intended, but
> I can't actually tell.
> 
> the power in a capacitor is 1/2Cv^2 so when the voltage drops in half,
> the power drops by 4


Jeff - you're confusing power and energy. 

The energy , not the power, in a capacitor is 1/2Cv^2. There is no "power" in a capacitor, just like there is no power in a battery.

The power you can draw from a capacitor depends on a lot of things, including the electronics and the internal resistance of the capacitors. (just like the power you can draw from batteries depends on the controller and the internal battery resistance). 

Phil


> 
> Ok, first problem. My batteries if dropped in half wouldn't drive my
> car, we must add a high power and wide voltage range dc-dc converter.
> This is the real limitation in useing caps as primary storage device
> 
> In an advanced chemistry pack, voltage stays at 80% nominal times the
> amp hours. Of the 100ah*300Volt for example we get around 80% of the
> available power out without only a 20% voltage drop .8*300*80 = 19200 Wh
> 
> Lets say we have a 300V cap bank holding the same aH, voltage drops
> linearly so we can average it to 225 You can only get at 1/2 the charge
> so 225*50*.9 (the .9 is for a kick butt dc-dc) or 10125Wh. So this means
> the caps will have to be oversized and the dc-dc will have to have a
> wider range.
> 
> The construction of caps and batteries are so similar, I am expecting
> the next major breakthrough to actually be a device that has both
> properties. Imagine a 300V battery that can be charged up to 500 volts.
> As soon as you remove the charger it shows 300V and you use it that way,
> the excess charge is not avail at the terminas but keeps chargeing the
> battery as you use it down. If this can be done internally without a
> dc-dc....
> 
> But it goes back to why bother. This whole train of thought is based on
> the need to refill in 2 min. Which if you are saying that the electric
> car must do everthing and be the only solution, that "one fuel to rule
> them all mindset", You are missing part of the point. Use the right
> tool for the job. Use the electric car for the commuting, daily miles,
> shopping etc. The reduction in pollution, heat, gas usage, means you
> will be able to afford to fuel a rented hybrid for those 2 days a year
> where you drive more than 100 miles at a shot.
> 
> If I have 100ah at 300V or 30kwh and I drive to 80% at 240wh/mile, I
> have just driven 100 miles, that is 1.5 to 2 hours.
> 
> It is not like we hot bunk our cars, I personally spend 10 hours a day
> at work and 6-8 hours a day asleep. It takes less than 2 hours to
> recharge my EV from my trip to work with a 120V 15A plug and a charger
> throttled down anyway. While my ridiculusly low range of under 20 miles
> with a 400+ wh/mile beast is embarrassingly bad, it still does 90+% of
> my driving. I have a gasser for longer miles and try to drive it once a
> week at least. The difference is instead of filling it 3 times a month,
> i now fill it every 3-5 months. If everyone in our little valley did
> that, Today wouldn't be an unhealty air day with red flags waving and
> alerts for people to stay indoors and not to excersise or do anything
> that makes us breath deeply. (not kidding)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:52:44 -0700, "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> >Neon's analysis was also for a SINGLE car. How often do you see just one
> >car at a gas station? Now multiply those electrical demand numbers by 3-6x
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*



> Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Just one little bit of math to show how silly this notion is. Let's say we
> > have a car that does 200 watt-hours/mile and goes 200 miles between chargings.
> > That's 40kWh of energy. To provide that amount of energy in two minutes, the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:53:52 +0300, "Kaido Kert" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just one little bit of math to show how silly this notion is. Let's say we
>> have a car that does 200 watt-hours/mile and goes 200 miles between chargings.
>> That's 40kWh of energy. To provide that amount of energy in two minutes, the
>> charger would have to supply 40 kWh / (2/60) = 1,200 kilowatts or 1.2
>> megawatts. At my last utility's tariffed demand charge of $8.88 per kW, that
>> one charge would cost the filling station $10,656 in demand fees for the
>> month. The actual electrical energy charge would be extra.
>
>You completely ignore the possibility of stationary energy storage at
>the station, assuming all the megawatts have to come from the power
>line.

No I didn't. There is only so much time that I'm willing to spend dismantling
such absurd propositions.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 02:28:42 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??
> 
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:52:44 -0700, "Adrian DeLeon" <[email protected]>


> > wrote:
> >
> > >Neon's analysis was also for a SINGLE car. How often do you see just one
> > >car at a gas station? Now multiply those electrical demand numbers by 3-6x
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Heh heh. I take 30 minutes when I decide to go, stop at the car wash, dry
everything off, drive to the gas station, fill my 46 gallon tank of deezul,
dripping it at the end to deal with the foaming so that I can fill it to the
top in order to keep accurate mileage records, writing down all the info,
and then driving home. Wait, that's only 23 minutes. Unless there was a
line at the carwash.

;-)

Brett



> Phil Marino <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:38:46 -0400, Phil Marino <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> 
> >> Time yourself sometime, from the time you decide that you need gas until
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

In the little traveling I've done, I've noticed that the local road
systems are different all over the country. For example where I live,
In my daily routine I dont get on a highway, freeway, expressway, or
whatever you want to call the road with many lanes of high (>55MPH)
speed traffic with no stop lights. I pass directly by a gas station
every day on my way to and from work. I could pass directly by 3 if I
wanted to, only adding one mile to my route.
I'm sure it takes some people longer to reach a service station than
others, depends on where you live and how you like to get around.
Either way, I dont think EVs are going to be putting many "quick
charge" stations in business. Except for the long distance travelers
(who would have a long distance vehicle anyway), why not charge
"slowly" at home?

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

The closest gas station to my house is 12 miles away. For my car that I
commute to work in, no problem.... I drive right by it every day. But for
the work truck that normally never strays more than about 4 miles from home,
it takes about 45 minutes (and a whole gallon of gas at least) just to go
fill it up...... and electric, sipping electricity every night at my
house, sure would be nice 



> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In the little traveling I've done, I've noticed that the local road
> > systems are different all over the country. For example where I live,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Hmm, even if your limited responds ignores solutions that may
soon become reality and can prove that no convenience is lost
when switching from gas to EV?

I agree with the people saying that the 2 min recharge times
are grossly overrated. Almost always will you have much more
time, in fact a fillup from empty to full will cost you way 
more than 2 mins at most gas stations.
But if you occasionally while you are out and about and you
need to do just one more errand while the range does not allow
it, can pull into a quick-fill station, even if they charge 
you triple the amount of a slow home fill ($3 iso $1) but
they could bring your SOC from say 35% to 85% in 5 mins?

240kW still requires a hefty cable, about 500A at 500V but it
can be done. It looks like the Forklift recharge station cable
or so, but then a bit higher voltage.

In case you think that new batteries are needed for this:
even the Classic (2001-2003) Prius' puny 6Ah cells take up to
about 60A regen (at 300+V for about 20 kW electric brake power)
and the next gen (2004+) Prius' cells have upgraded specs, I am
not sure about max current during regen, I just know that the
car has a 200V NiMH battery, still 6Ah, and uses a 500V power rail
with a bi-directional DC/DC converter to transfer from between
motor and battery. I think its electric braking (regen) power is
around 30 kW.
So, let's increase the Prius battery pack 8 times to arrive at
8x6=48kWh and 8x30=240kW.
See that no new inventions are needed to fast-charge an EV?
Just combine the already existing parts in a smart way and
you will automatically get the trade-offs right.
Note that I used numbers I had from old technology, I am sure
that newer Li-Ion can take much higher charge currents, so
the original question may even be relevant - it will just be
a matter of technical feasibility to transfer that much power
without going to extremely high voltage which makes life more
difficult to handle safely... but nothing impossible.

Now if we just install those flywheel-stations, then I am sure
the cars will come, or was that the other way around?

Oh well,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:53:52 +0300, "Kaido Kert" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Neon John <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just one little bit of math to show how silly this notion is. Let's 
>> say we have a car that does 200 watt-hours/mile and goes 200 miles between chargings.
>> That's 40kWh of energy. To provide that amount of energy in two 
>> minutes, the charger would have to supply 40 kWh / (2/60) = 1,200 
>> kilowatts or 1.2 megawatts. At my last utility's tariffed demand 
>> charge of $8.88 per kW, that one charge would cost the filling 
>> station $10,656 in demand fees for the month. The actual electrical energy charge would be extra.
>
>You completely ignore the possibility of stationary energy storage at 
>the station, assuming all the megawatts have to come from the power 
>line.

No I didn't. There is only so much time that I'm willing to spend dismantling such absurd propositions.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

OK, and I have (had for over 4 years) a gas station right across the street,
literally 300 ft away. I can check the price on their sign and see if it has
changed already before I get into the car and drive over to fill up, or wait
until their price matches the price across town (with compliments to Gasbuddy)

So what does this prove?

Oh yeah - a trip to the gas station takes me between 5 and 10 mins unless
my tank is not empty and the station is, then it's less.
Of course, I don't go when there is a queue....

So, a refill of an EV that takes 5 mins is in line with a gas fillup,
because we are NOT doing anything about waiting for traffic lights or
driving from the Interstate to the station, we are talking about the
comparison of the actual fillups, right?

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??

The closest gas station to my house is 12 miles away. For my car that I
commute to work in, no problem.... I drive right by it every day. But for the work truck that normally never strays more than about 4 miles from home, it takes about 45 minutes (and a whole gallon of gas at least) just to go
fill it up...... and electric, sipping electricity every night at my
house, sure would be nice 



> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > In the little traveling I've done, I've noticed that the local road
> > systems are different all over the country. For example where I live,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

You already have a DC/DC converter in your car. It is called the motor controller.
Since batteries need quite a bit of headroom to allow charging and sag while in use
this usually already allows for about a factor 2 between max battery and min motor
voltage to drive the car with enough power.
So hardly a change is needed, though you can optimize this part if you like.
However, if you use the range from full to half voltage from caps, you have
already consumed 75% of the stored energy so there is less and less gains in
increasing the voltage range much further.

Caps are more feasible than you think - they just need to be made in
sufficient capacity. They still lag compared to practical batteries.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??

>
> Once we have super-ultra caps, the gas stations can become super-ultra 
> rate charge stations, drive in and get your caps recharged in minutes 
> to go another 50 miles, like a forumula-one pitstop. Pull in, stop 
> over the induction charger, sit for 2 minutes, then drive off. That 
> is the future my friends.
> Jack

Are you being serious or sarcastic. I am sorry, no offense intended, but I can't actually tell.

the power in a capacitor is 1/2Cv^2 so when the voltage drops in half, the power drops by 4

Ok, first problem. My batteries if dropped in half wouldn't drive my car, we must add a high power and wide voltage range dc-dc converter.
This is the real limitation in useing caps as primary storage device

In an advanced chemistry pack, voltage stays at 80% nominal times the amp hours. Of the 100ah*300Volt for example we get around 80% of the available power out without only a 20% voltage drop .8*300*80 = 19200 Wh

Lets say we have a 300V cap bank holding the same aH, voltage drops linearly so we can average it to 225 You can only get at 1/2 the charge so 225*50*.9 (the .9 is for a kick butt dc-dc) or 10125Wh. So this means the caps will have to be oversized and the dc-dc will have to have a wider range.

The construction of caps and batteries are so similar, I am expecting the next major breakthrough to actually be a device that has both properties. Imagine a 300V battery that can be charged up to 500 volts.
As soon as you remove the charger it shows 300V and you use it that way, the excess charge is not avail at the terminas but keeps chargeing the battery as you use it down. If this can be done internally without a dc-dc....

But it goes back to why bother. This whole train of thought is based on the need to refill in 2 min. Which if you are saying that the electric car must do everthing and be the only solution, that "one fuel to rule them all mindset", You are missing part of the point. Use the right tool for the job. Use the electric car for the commuting, daily miles, shopping etc. The reduction in pollution, heat, gas usage, means you will be able to afford to fuel a rented hybrid for those 2 days a year where you drive more than 100 miles at a shot.

If I have 100ah at 300V or 30kwh and I drive to 80% at 240wh/mile, I have just driven 100 miles, that is 1.5 to 2 hours.

It is not like we hot bunk our cars, I personally spend 10 hours a day at work and 6-8 hours a day asleep. It takes less than 2 hours to recharge my EV from my trip to work with a 120V 15A plug and a charger throttled down anyway. While my ridiculusly low range of under 20 miles with a 400+ wh/mile beast is embarrassingly bad, it still does 90+% of my driving. I have a gasser for longer miles and try to drive it once a week at least. The difference is instead of filling it 3 times a month, i now fill it every 3-5 months. If everyone in our little valley did that, Today wouldn't be an unhealty air day with red flags waving and alerts for people to stay indoors and not to excersise or do anything that makes us breath deeply. (not kidding)


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

I'm a newbie here... but I have a degree in electronics technology. The
whole idea of recharging large batteries in a few minutes really baffles
me. The charge/discharge current of a battery is limited by it's internal
resistance and ability to withstand heat.

When you pass an electric current through a resistive circuit (the battery
in this case), this produces heat. The amount of heat produced is
proportional to the amount of current passing through the circuit, assuming
that the resistance remains constant.

Certainly, if you apply a large enough voltage to the battery, you can
overcome the battery's internal resistance and force as much current through
it as you like. However, the resulting heat produced by said current could
damage the battery.

It doesn't seem likely that a large battery could withstand the heat
generated by recharging it in 5 minutes.


On 8/18/08, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> OK, and I have (had for over 4 years) a gas station right across the
> street,
> literally 300 ft away. I can check the price on their sign and see if it
> has
> changed already before I get into the car and drive over to fill up, or
> wait
> until their price matches the price across town (with compliments to
> Gasbuddy)
>
> So what does this prove?
>
> Oh yeah - a trip to the gas station takes me between 5 and 10 mins unless
> my tank is not empty and the station is, then it's less.
> Of course, I don't go when there is a queue....
>
> So, a refill of an EV that takes 5 mins is in line with a gas fillup,
> because we are NOT doing anything about waiting for traffic lights or
> driving from the Interstate to the station, we are talking about the
> comparison of the actual fillups, right?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040) 23117400x109 XoIP: +31877841130
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??
>
> The closest gas station to my house is 12 miles away. For my car that I
> commute to work in, no problem.... I drive right by it every day. But for
> the work truck that normally never strays more than about 4 miles from home,
> it takes about 45 minutes (and a whole gallon of gas at least) just to go
> fill it up...... and electric, sipping electricity every night at my
> house, sure would be nice 
>
>


> Jon Glauser <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > In the little traveling I've done, I've noticed that the local road
> > > systems are different all over the country. For example where I live,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

It depends on the batteries. Yes, you can't charge them infinitely fast.
However, many batteries have internal resistances of under 10 milli-ohms.

For example, a 320V, 115Ah A123 battery pack (100s50p) would have an
internal resistance of 20 milli-ohms total and a capacity of 36.8kWh. If you
are charging at 600A, this pack would charge in under 12 minutes and
generate 7.2kW of waste heat. The battery manufacturer actually makes 15
minute chargers for drill-sized battery packs, so they can handle it no
problem. You'd just need a very good ventilation system.

Here's another example with less powerful batteries. A Headway battery pack
of 160V 60Ah (50s6p) would have an internal resistance of about 333
milli-ohms and a capacity of 9.6kWh. Charging at 150A, it would charge in 24
minutes and generate 7.5kW of waste heat.

I know this isn't the 5 minute charge some people are talking about, but
this is currently available technology.

-Morgan LaMoore



> [email protected] <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > I'm a newbie here... but I have a degree in electronics technology. The
> > whole idea of recharging large batteries in a few minutes really baffles
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

I had said using "new" capacitors and not batteries
for a short-range fast-recharge car. 
Here is a current product that allows an electric
power tool to be recharged in 90 seconds:

http://www.colemanflashcellscrewdriver.com/

The key to scaling caps up to EV size is increasing
their voltage a couple orders of magnitude without
the corresponding increase in size and weight. EESTOR
says they can do it, they may be full of hype, but
this is a promising general approach for the future
and a game-changing technology. But as Morgan says we
have existing technology that isn't too far fetched
from 20-mile range 5-minute recharges.

Jack Murray nimblemotorsports.com




> --- Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > It depends on the batteries. Yes, you can't charge
> > them infinitely fast.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*



> [email protected] wrote:
> > Even though fast charging of batteries is possible now (as pointed
> > out by Morgan LaMoore), it seems like it would shorten the life of
> > the battery.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

The cost and power required of the few minute recharge
is a reason its at the Shell station. And caps don't
wear out like batteries, 10x 100x 1000x number of
cycles. Heck an even more interesting but pie-in-sky
idea is to put inductive rechargers at stoplights so
your EV recharges while waiting for a green light,
which would make you happy to wait at a stop light
instead of frustrated..
A real "green" city could put these in the roads.
Heck in L.A. you could put them in the freeways so
when your stuck in stop-n-go freeway traffic you'd be
happy 

Jack


> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > Even though fast charging of batteries is
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Our local Shell station usually has 8 cars fueling
at once, with a few lined up waiting.

Fast charge of several EVs at once could really
demand megawatt capabilities.

John in Sylmar,
Slow charging on sunshine!

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JS" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??


> Our local Shell station usually has 8 cars fueling
> at once, with a few lined up waiting.
>
> Fast charge of several EVs at once could really
> demand megawatt capabilities.
> Hi EVerybody;

Wel;ll IF the Shell Place had a basement full of batteries? They could be 
charged at 2 or 3 AM when rates are lower. Oh they just DON't have 
basements(cellers) in CA? If you series paralled several hundred of these, 
plenty of Dump Charging amps? Nothing new, Trolley systems often had battery 
substations to help out when ALL the trolleys were out running around, like 
during rush hour. They were recharged over night for the morning's 
festivities.

Seeya

Bob
> John in Sylmar,
> Slow charging on sunshine!
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > The cost and power required of the few minute recharge is a reason
> > its at the Shell station. And caps don't wear out like batteries,
> > 10x 100x 1000x number of cycles.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

and there are electric go-carts that recharge via
their parking spot waiting for the next customer.
not sure Lee is class dismissed yet? is it 3:15pm?
Clock is slow today.
Jack



> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> > > The cost and power required of the few minute
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

I think you guys are trying to project our current status quo onto the 
future. The reality is if everyone has a "gas station" at home AKA 
plug it in overnight on a slow timed charge, then there will not be 8 
cars lined up for a charge at the "gas station" the next morning. 
Charging on the road will be an occasional thing needed for longer 
trips. Quick charging stations, if there ever is such a thing" will 
be just along the interstates. They can be located where there are 50 
KV lines, or a substation nearby. Nighttime charges can easily be 
controlled by a timer to occur only during off peak hours, or can be 
controlled by the power companies via the internet.

Also, if we don't have to produce petroleum, that alone will result in 
surplus electrical power.

All change comes with a price, but making no change will cost us all 
much more.




> Bob Rice wrote:
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

Right, but notice current thinking that nighttime will
remain off-peak. It would become peak if everyone
charged at night. We might charge at work. We charge
when rates are lowest or pay more for convenience to
charge at other times. Rates may vary
minute-by-minute, cars might negotiate rates before
charging automatically by computer using settings you
input ahead as you approach a charging point that
broadcasts its rates via WiFi. Maybe some stations
have electricity on sale today, their flywheels are
full and want you to stop in and buy some donuts and
watch their commercials on the screen above your car
while you wait to charge. Who can really say, but I
know for sure that those who say many ideas are
"silly" and "not possible" are not very imaginative.
Jack 
--- Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:

> I think you guys are trying to project our current
> status quo onto the 
> future. The reality is if everyone has a "gas
> station" at home AKA 
> plug it in overnight on a slow timed charge, then
> there will not be 8 
> cars lined up for a charge at the "gas station" the
> next morning. 
> Charging on the road will be an occasional thing
> needed for longer 
> trips. Quick charging stations, if there ever is
> such a thing" will 
> be just along the interstates. They can be located
> where there are 50 
> KV lines, or a substation nearby. Nighttime charges
> can easily be 
> controlled by a timer to occur only during off peak
> hours, or can be 
> controlled by the power companies via the internet.
> 
> Also, if we don't have to produce petroleum, that
> alone will result in 
> surplus electrical power.
> 
> All change comes with a price, but making no change
> will cost us all 
> much more.
> 
> 
>


> Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

True. In fact, if enough solar come on line off peak could coincide 
with solar peak. In areas where there is a lot of wind power, off 
peak might be when there are high winds.



> Jack Murray wrote:
> 
> > Right, but notice current thinking that nighttime will
> > remain off-peak. It would become peak if everyone
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

In the vein of silly and not possible, what if the battery pack is not owned
by the EV'er, but rather leased, like a 'blue rhino' propane tank? If the
standardized pack was palettized, with quick diconnects and an easily
accessed location (trunk? underneath?), then the whole thing could be
swapped out in a matter of minutes. Also, the pack has some kindof
electronics unit that can indicate an ID, history, and current health of the
unit. This makes it traceable to prevent theft or tampering. If there's a
pile of these palettes ready to go at the station, then the power surge
isn't necessary. I imagine it like this: you're low on juice, so you swing
into the chargeup station where the guy with the fork truck or loader swaps
the current palette out, then drops a fresh one in. You're account is
billed, and off you go.


Who can really say, but I
know for sure that those who say many ideas are
"silly" and "not possible" are not very imaginative.
Jack 


> --- Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Volt-charging-stations-Shell-oil----tp18986952p19061523.html
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

It's impossible to jump in on this discussion without getting into politics.
Thats an equally sized hurdle along with infrastructure and technology.
Infrastructure and technology can be over come....

Braceman, refer to Project Better Place. The idea is feasible, but again,
impossible to get into without discussing politics.

With enough Money anything is possible.



> braceman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > In the vein of silly and not possible, what if the battery pack is not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*



> Jack Murray wrote:
> > Right, but notice current thinking that nighttime will remain
> > off-peak. It would become peak if everyone charged at night.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

I like it.
Lets load the Pack in flat on the bottom like a cell phone battery.
That will leave the engineers free to design all the different shapes and 
sizes.
You drive over some kind of machine and it does the rest.
Larger vehicles might use multiple "standard packs."
Tom Meyers

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "braceman" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??


>
> In the vein of silly and not possible, what if the battery pack is not 
> owned
> by the EV'er, but rather leased, like a 'blue rhino' propane tank? If the
> standardized pack was palettized, with quick diconnects and an easily
> accessed location (trunk? underneath?), then the whole thing could be
> swapped out in a matter of minutes. Also, the pack has some kindof
> electronics unit that can indicate an ID, history, and current health of 
> the
> unit. This makes it traceable to prevent theft or tampering. If there's 
> a
> pile of these palettes ready to go at the station, then the power surge
> isn't necessary. I imagine it like this: you're low on juice, so you 
> swing
> into the chargeup station where the guy with the fork truck or loader 
> swaps
> the current palette out, then drops a fresh one in. You're account is
> billed, and off you go.
>
>
> Who can really say, but I
> know for sure that those who say many ideas are
> "silly" and "not possible" are not very imaginative.
> Jack


> > --- Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

U.S Households average 10,000 Kwh useage per year
which is 27Kwh per day. To recharge a small 10KwH
pack is hardly a small fractional increase, and these
are small EVs, if we use EVs for all our driving,
we'll have larger 6-person cars that will be driven at
75mph, can easily double or quadruple power
requirements compared to our "grandma-style" misely
40mph Fieros and Metros.

Power companies "terrified?" I didn't think you were
in the conspiracy camp Lee. Our local power company
SMUD is a non-profit and is a big proponent of energy
conservation, electric cars, solar panels, etc.
They save money and reduce financial risk by delaying
or reducing investments to increase capacity. 

It is true that electric power can be generated by
many sources including youself and this is yet another
reason EVs will eventually overtake ICEs.
I'm looking into a solar water heater for my new house
right now...

Jack


> --- Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> > > Right, but notice current thinking that nighttime
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Volt charging stations Shell oil ??*

> Power companies "terrified?" I didn't think you were
> in the conspiracy camp Lee. Our local power company
> SMUD is a non-profit and is a big proponent of energy
> conservation, electric cars, solar panels, etc.
> They save money and reduce financial risk by delaying
> or reducing investments to increase capacity.

SMUD eh? You must live pretty close to me. I'm stuck on pge, but when 
I was in the valley (where I intend to go back soon) I was using them. 
They just recently turned on a methane power plant that uses the 
gasses that were being produced/released into the air from dairy 
farms. Gets the methane outta the air, AND generates clean renewable 
energy. Good stuff.

It is true that electric power can be generated by
>
> many sources including youself and this is yet another
> reason EVs will eventually overtake ICEs.
> I'm looking into a solar water heater for my new house
> right now...

This is slightly off topic, but relates to your statement. Google 
recently promised $10mil to geothermal research, and MIT recently 
released a study that supports the concept of Enhanced (or engineered) 
Geothermal Tech.

<http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/geothermal.html>

Really quite interesting. I know it's Geothermal isn't a new tech, 
iceland's been using it for years, but the EGT is relatively new, and 
very promising.

~Jon

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