# First EV build: Atv conversion



## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi All

I have a Kazuma Cougar 250 Road legal! I wish to convert for my first EV project.
The original rebuild project was a Honda 1000cc engine on the Cougar, but already having done similar projects I wanted something new. 
One evening watching discovery science (my favorite and only tv channel) mean green machines was on with the killacycle, and I was sold for an EV conversion J 
After next time seeing mean green machines, and seeing the poorest attempt to make a ev atv i decided I could do better, or at least I hope. 
Coming from the dragracing world and having allot of friends that think the idea is stupid, so I’m hoping to prove them wrong.

Skills:
Years as a dragracing mechanic on 2-8cyl up to 1500hp+, turbo/compressor, Nos, Data loggers, and little ECU programming with direct injection.
Rebuild several cars, bikes and atv. So I should be covered on ICE engines.

I have a 5 year degree in IT, and is currently a it department in a power distributer company (so i have allot of engineers at hand to help me out)

EV skills:
Very slim(or none)
Have done some c+ programming, and have had electronics classes as a kid, so I’m pretty god at soldering J


Parts I have already considered:

- 4 x Lifebatt XPS1E-14410144V/10Ah packs (maybe 5 packs depending on if there is enough amps)

- One L91-4003 (I like this motor for the HP, but dislike that I can’t use regen on it)

- Thinking of a Kelly converter but don’t know which one 


Range:
100km on half voltage, I have no estimate on full throttle all the time.

Power:
What is possible with the setup?

Economy:
10.000usd on the engine, battery and controller. Seperat budget for other parts.

Weight:
I'm hopeing to keep it under 300kg. (the chassi is 70kg without engine and gas)

I have allot of future plans and projects for the quad, so I don’t want to get stuck with the wrong engine or battery types.
Although I don’t want to aim to high with the project in the beginning, so I don’t get stuck in it being to complex. For now the EV conversion is step one. Step two: Regen and super/ultra caps.

Maybe i have to cut back on the batteries, depending on the price, but want the correct engine to start with. Are there any alternative specs wise to the L91-4003 with regen possibility?

Regards
Allan, Denmark


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Hej

Nice with some more danes converting even with our crazy road safety rules 

For a ATV I would go with a permanet magnet motor like the AGNI or LEMCO. They can put out about 30HP peak , or more if you push them,and good enough amount of tourqe for light vehicles. If you need more power just run two of them in series or parrallel. 
They do regen and offer the best power to weight ration and efficiency around.

Got one my self in my yamaha tdr 125 conversion and its about as fast as the original 30hp 125cc 2 stoke engine at only 300A peak. The AGNI will take 400 for short periods.
I got a kelly 500A controller my self and it works very nicely but dont trust their Amp ratings.

Insted of lifebatt why not headway 10Ah cells? they are cheaper and perform almost as good. They got them at evcomponents.com

With a 10kusd budget you could build something like a 144v 40Ah headway pack to power dual agni motors that would make a kickass atv 

If you want long range sky energy or thudnersky is probably more affordable but wont give you the high amount of amps like the lifebatt or headway.


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi Bentzon

Thanks for your reply 

We do have crazy laws when looking at automotive regulations.
But i found some holes in the law regarding road legal quads and Ev's.

For example if a quad have a TÜV approval, then all other laws regarding cars does not apply because they are in special category in Denmark. That’s why Chinese crap atv’s can be registered as road legal.

Also EV’s are tax free until 2012, because they think that there will be so many EV’s at that time that it will make a hole in the budget from lack off fax from ICE autos. 

So I need to build my EV before 2012 if I want to make my oven chassi, instead of the Kazuma Chassis I have now. (that’s the dream J)

I have been looking at the Agni 143, peak 35kw an 100nm that’s sounds nice. Maybe 2 depending on the price/weight and if the battery pack can take it. I don’t want more that 150kg of engine and batteries, but I think that is fast spend. 

About the motor: how can I compare the speed and strength of the motor to an ice engine? Because the Agni 143 has the same nm as a brand new 1000cc but the Hp as an old 400cc, so how do that work? Would that be like an diesel engine sort off pull?

And where can I find it, I only found the Agni 119 reinforced at http://www.electricracebikes.com/ev-products.html, pretty god specs, but I want the most powerfull motor I can get.


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Wouldnt you still need a tuv or similar new aproval for the electric conversion to get it road legal? I would guess a tuv approval for a converted vehicle is not cheap.
I havent looked into getting my tdr road legel yet.

I got the 95 reinforced motor. It does 71rpm/V and will do max. 6000rpm and can take 400A for up to 2mins if I remember correctly. The higher rpm allows for direct drive with decent top speed and acceleration.
Geared for a top speed around 130km/h with direct drive this motor performs pretty much like a 30-35hp motorcycle engine. With a gearbox you could probably increase acceleration and top speed but its more complicated and less efficient. I would go for dual motors instead of a gearbox.

If you plan to build a 144v 40-50Ah system with lifebatt or similar cells like headway, powering dual motors like the agni wont be a problem. These cells are rated for 10c peak(or more) so that would give you 400-500A at peak from the battery. 144V*400A*0,8(My guess at overall efficiency) = 46kW

I think 150kgs for motor+battery is very possible:

2x11kgs agni motors = 22kgs
240x0,3kgs headway 10A cells = 72kgs

Add weight of controller, cables, sprockets/gear, other electronics like dc/dc and bms and it wouldnt be more than 110-120kgs is my guess.

Just contact stybrook directly for a order. 

http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=73


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Just spendt 2 hours on a post and the post got wiped


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

I only need a TÜV if the HP is more than 20% of the orginal HP. 
But i don't intend to buy TÜV for the kazuma conversion. Besides the TÜV people can't tell how many HP the engine has and they can't bench it anyway.

I have been told that a TÜV for a motorcycle is 30.000usd WOW . But then you can call yourself a manufacture, and call it want you want.

With the EV the TÜV price is much less because of no engine testing. Also with no tax on EV undtil 2012 the price would be more than the double of the orginal selling price. (100% of the first 60.000dkk and 180% of the rest of the selling value)

So with a EV i think it could actualy be achievable, without selling my house. 

I know the agni 95 is reinforced and proven very well, but i like to se the specs on the 143. 
I'm hoping more like 70kw and 200nm. That will probely need a 1000amp controller and i haven't found a regen kind for this yet. Also this would probely not be realistic with the batterypack i have in mind. The 143 also rund 84v at the max so i could have lower voltage packs with more amps.

I have written to stybrooks about specs on weight, dimentions, price and shipping on the 143. 

The agni 143 only runs 4500rpm so i would probely need a gearing/transmission on it.
I'm looking at a CVT model for this from an atv or snowmobile. (Maybe dual cvt because of IRS and the need for a Diff or two chain/sprockets)
But i need to do the math on i first. 

According to agni faq: if km/h * total weigth = more than 30000 i would need a transmission. If a can hold 200kg (150+50kg chassi on the final model) i could be possible running 150km/h with the engine directly mounted.
I'm thinking on running 17" wheels so i need to figure out gearing on it before i decide.

One thing i'm learning about EV's is every component is dependent on eachother. You don't know the km/h without knowing the V/amp's of the engine and it needs the V/amp's on the batts, and they impact on the km/h on the kilos and then you start over again. And then is the gearing end the KW on the engine part. OMG!  

Thanks for the replys and sorry for the poor english, i wrote it quite fast the second time.

/Allan


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Now i will go read in the Nuwiki


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> I got the 95 reinforced motor. It does 71rpm/V and will do max. 6000rpm and can take 400A for up to 2mins if I remember correctly. The higher rpm allows for direct drive with decent top speed and acceleration.
> Geared for a top speed around 130km/h with direct drive this motor performs pretty much like a 30-35hp motorcycle engine. With a gearbox you could probably increase acceleration and top speed but its more complicated and less efficient. I would go for dual motors instead of a gearbox.


On agni’s graph for the 95 model, the kw keeps going with the RPM up til about 24kw at 6000rpm, is this right?



Bentzon said:


> If you plan to build a 144v 40-50Ah system with lifebatt or similar cells like headway, powering dual motors like the agni wont be a problem. These cells are rated for 10c peak(or more) so that would give you 400-500A at peak from the battery. 144V*400A*0,8(My guess at overall efficiency) = 46kW
> 
> I think 150kgs for motor+battery is very possible:
> 
> ...


If I wanted 144v /3,2v pr. Cell = 45 cells x 4 = 144v/450ah. That makes 180 cells so why 240 cells in your calc? 

I fund prices on the 95 motors, headway batteries and and a Kelly regen controller: 
KBL14401I,144V,400A,Opto-Isolated BLDC Controller w/ Regen and it looks like I can just about keep my budget on 10000usd 

/Allan


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

So your saying you can convert a street legal atv and keep it street legal? Thats great Ill remember that if I ever get enough air in the budget for another conversion.
Got a Citroen saxo electrique waiting to get a huge load of LFP cells first 
Hope to get 200km range on that with a 22+kWh pack.

A cvt would be awsome but wouldnt it need to be special made to handle the amount of tourque a electric motor puts out at take off?

I calculate with 3V nominal instead of the 3,2V given by the manufacture. Reason for this that the cells will sag in voltage quite a lot when discharged at 10c or more. So with 3V nominal you will keep the nominal voltage of the whole pack longer even with heavy discharging.
The voltage will be higher right off the charger but the electronics can normally handle that. 
240 cells was for a 144V 50Ah pack.

That controller you found is for a brushless motor the agni motors are brushed.

http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?products_id=356&osCsid=cc937c860df0d9fe87484900b8ac37e0

I know they make 1000A controllers but if they can actually output 1000A is another story.

Made you can ask Steve at jozzbikes about the kelly controllers I know he is using the 1000A model for his dual motor ducati.
He also knows alot about the limits of the agni motor.

http://jozzbikes.co.uk/PHEV/electric_motorbikes/conversions.php


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

400A for at 144V would be great for most controllers, but from experience and feedback from some people, its better to go at least double the amps with the kelly controllers if you want any sort of performance.....


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> So your saying you can convert a street legal atv and keep it street legal? Thats great Ill remember that if I ever get enough air in the budget for another conversion.


Yesterday i talked to some people in denmark who already made roadlegal EV, and i found out there is no regulations for making a roadlegal EV, so i can make a 500v/2000amp death trap and it would be roadlegal, thats just crasy. We have highvoltage regulations, but they never combined them with EV regulations.


Bentzon said:


> Got a Citroen saxo electrique waiting to get a huge load of LFP cells first
> Hope to get 200km range on that with a 22+kWh pack..


Nice range, i hope for something like that at 36v.


Bentzon said:


> A cvt would be awsome but wouldnt it need to be special made to handle the amount of tourque a electric motor puts out at take off?.


I figure that if i find a cvt from snowmobile with similar nm and rpm and i can gear the cluch and rolles the rest off the way. But it's probely not goint go be easy, most are low nm and high rpm. Maybe i can find a diesel engine that is a better match. But if it is not nessasary i won't do a cvt, because of the energy loss. Not unles there is a gain with it. With the amount of nm the engines produce at 0-6000rpm i dont think it will be needed.


Bentzon said:


> I calculate with 3V nominal instead of the 3,2V given by the manufacture. Reason for this that the cells will sag in voltage quite a lot when discharged at 10c or more. So with 3V nominal you will keep the nominal voltage of the whole pack longer even with heavy discharging.


How about using super/ultracaps, as a bufffer to take the stress of the batteries? And if i can spare som cell's that would be nice for the budget


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Hmm if you read this thread and the links in it

http://www.danskelbilkomite.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=534

It looks to me like you need tuv aproval of your vehicle or similar.

Huh 36v? inst that a very low system voltage or what did you mean?

Dunno about ultracaps but theres a few active threads on this forum about it.


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## goglahey (Jul 8, 2009)

Bentzon said:


> Hmm if you read this thread and the links in it





Bentzon said:


> http://www.danskelbilkomite.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=534
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Yep, i read that to, but i don't care much for them. It states that i need TÜV approval if i have made constructive changes to the car. And that’s a matter of opinion. I just change the engine. ATV’s don’t have vacuum pumps on the braking, and the rest is car related. The regulations on roadlegal atv’s (quadricycles) is that if you have a EF approval or a TÜV approval no other regulations apply. But it is not legal to even change the tires on it then. It must stand completely original from the TÜV. But only the approval inspectors know this, not the police. And since there is only one of my kind of atv in Denmark, how will they compare it? The registration papers only calls it a quadricycle and “new type from CRM” (CRM=Motor registration office) It doesn’t even say factory name or engine type/size. It does state gasoline, but hey I just put a EV motor on it. 

I'm thinking of doing a complete build from the bottom up, when i have to pay TÜV anyway. But I’m starting a smaller project today just to get to know the technology. I will make a new post for it. 



Is ATV's in the bike section at all?



I want to be able to switch between 36v and 72v on the agni 95, so i have like 2 gears or a low power/high power gear.
Thanks for all you help 
Btw. do you read Danish or just used translate engine?
/Allan


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## Bentzon (Sep 5, 2009)

Hehe jeg snakker da dansk men det er jo et engelsk forum så jeg holdt det til det engelske.

A series/parallel switching on the controller side would be nice for a sort of two gear electric gearbox. But wont save you any energy.

Maybe you could do the switching battery side if you run one motor. but no idea how the controller would react on that. 
Maybe frodus can answer that. 
Just saw the synkomotive controller at 1600$ thats a pretty good deal and gives you build in reverse. Which I guess you need for your atv or should I call it car since its registered as a car 

http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SYNKRO


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

A controller converts power.... from pack voltage/pack amps to a variable motor voltage/variable motor amps. So, 100kw of power on pack side is 100kw on motor side. It won't matter if you built a 50V 500A pack, or a 100V 250A pack. Its the same power, and the controller takes care of the rest (there are entire discussions devoted to controller theory and design, so I won't get into it here, its not a simple discussion). Series parallel switching on battery side was done with old rectactor controllers but is unneccessary on FET/IFBT based controllers. Plus, high voltage lower current is better for connection losses on battery side.

Throw some high power batteries in there, with a good controller and get a motor that can take the amps and RPM's you want, and you shouldn't need a transmission.


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