# New Motorcycle and builder



## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok. I will start by saying that my name is Gabriel. I am a college student in the Texas panhandle, 23 years of age, and I am seriously considering converting a 1980's (I think) Honda Goldwing to electric. 

before you ask why, the price was right ($400 and the engine is "froze.") I might be able to re-sale the engine as a candidate for rebuilding... is that plausible or even worth trying?

anyways. I was just curious what you guys can tell me about my build. I have a 20-lb 115v 7.6 Amp Dayton Ac motor. from the research I have done, the volts is what keeps you from getting higher speeds. (also, i found the motor unused at a garage sale for $15) it is rated at 1/2 hp.

next, since I am using an ac motor, i will need an inverter. I would like to find an inverter that works with at least 48 volts (because of amp draw) if not more. Do you know of any with a high voltage? even if it is 200v, i don't care bc I am building my own battery pack. I have at east 300 lithium ion cells at 3.2v and 2 Ah each, so the total watts will be the same for any set-up.

that being said, I will also need a charger for the batteries. I would like one that will charge it completely in 8 hours, However, I don't want to buy a charger more suited for a car if I can keep from it. (remember, I'm just a college student)

Help me please. 

One last thought: I know I'm new, but I do work for an electronics repairman so basic electric concept are understood, I just need some guidance for the rest. 

Any wisdom is appreciated as long as name-calling isn't involved. (if I am wrong in an idea or concept I am willing to be scorned though.)



...or should I just sell the ac components I have, forget about all those complexities, and hope that a 96v kit will be more worth my time and cheaper in the long run?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

motor won't work, way too small for your bike. You need something rated for over 20hp continuous for a bike that big.

Sell the motor and get a new one rated for higher HP.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

so you think definitely dc then? that simplifies things a lot. 

any advice on the components? I would like 96v or higher if I can. 

Also, the battery charger still would be an issue. What should I do about that? Is there a decent one for builds like that of a motorcycle, or are they all geared towards cars?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

no, just not that PARTICULAR AC motor. I've got an AC20 motor from HPEVS.com and love it. DC is easier to control and they're cheaper to get, so that may be a direction to go. I know the AC20 with controller was over $3000 

my build:
www.evfr.net

Why 96V? I mean, I know why I chose it, but I'm wondering in particular why you're chosing it?

Chargers are easy to get, don't worry about that. DeltaQ and Elcon are good waterproof chargers.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

I just feel like 96v would be a good voltage to shoot for. I live 10 miles from work, but there is a highway in between. That being said, I believe 96v for a motorcycle would allow for a top speed of at least 70mph while still being cost effective and not enormous overkill. 

Like i mentioned before though... I could be wrong

I like your battery pack by the way. I have over 300 lithium ion cells here from laptops that I plan to do a similar design with. It's good to know someone else has a similar idea!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, so top speed of 70

what range?

What kind of batteries do you have (give part numbers and chemistry). You should have the datasheet on them if you are even considering them... right? I hope they're not LiCo laptop batteries (dangerous).


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

frodus said:


> What kind of batteries do you have (give part numbers and chemistry). You should have the datasheet on them if you are even considering them... right? I hope they're not LiCo laptop batteries (dangerous).





> I have at east 300 lithium ion cells at 3.2v and 2 Ah each


With only 1.9Kwh (300 x 3.2v x 2Ah) you will be need to recharge at work..... if you can complete the travel!!
An other example for you (dc motorcycle):
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/suzuki-drz-sm-2005-electric-48239.html

Also watch:http: http://www.evalbum.com/type/MTCY


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

I realize that, but lithium Ion is the family. Lipo, LiMn, LiCo, Lifepo4 etc are all in that family, so it doesn't tell much about the chemistry.


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## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

Yes, evidently, I only think lifepo4 because of the 3.2v tension.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok, the cell says "sf us18650gr"
below that is a designated product number I assume.

http://www.batteryspace.com/li-ion18650cylindricalrechargeablecell37v2200mah814wh--madeinchina.aspx

should be a link to batteries of the same chemistry. I can't find the exact specs about it though as far as the exact chemistry goes.

what's the best way to upload pics by the way?

I guess they are 3.7v. My mistake. sorry


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> ok, the cell says "sf us18650gr"
> below that is a designated product number I assume.


yup, Lithium Cobalt. They're the ones you hear about laptops exploding. I'd stear away from these, especially since you shouldn't solder them, and you'd have to put a pack of 600 of them together.

They're 2C max discharge, meaning 4A each. With 300 cells, if you put them in a 96V setup (30 in series) and 20Ah (10 in parallel), you'd have a max discharge rate of about 80A. Anything after that and they don't like it, heat up and possibly explode. you WILL ABSOLUTELY need a BMS, I don't care who says what. These are tempermental and need voltage AND temperature monitoring.



> what's the best way to upload pics by the way?


click "go advanced" and "manage attachments"



> I guess they are 3.7v. My mistake. sorry


yup, thought so, haven't seen many lifepo4 laptop batteries.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

hmm... how did you know they were lithium cobalt? I couldn't find any information on their chemistry. 

also, with reguard to them exploding, don't lead acids do the same when mistreated? so, if I am careful with them, I should be fine right? I have over 300 as-is and to trash them would be a crime in my opinion...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

well, because I had a pack once built with those, just to do some testing. didn't use them because of low discharge, pain in the ass to build a large pack, and they're volitile.

Lead acids can release hydrogen, which can ignite. Properly vented lead installations do not really have this problem. The Acid wont' ignite.

These actually explode and catch fire and burn things down. The internals of the cell can actually burn.


These still do only 2C MAX discharge. 80A is what you get at 96V, no way around that. IMHO, that is not enough for a motorcycle. If you were converting a bicycle or very small scooter, I'd say sure. But not a bike.

Even at 72V, you're only adding anouther 8A ability.

They're good for small applications, but not larger EV's, but that's just my opinion.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

on a motorcycle running at 96v, would the amp draw be that high?

for a car, I thought it was only 100 amp draw on acceleration with a 144v system. (that's what Gavin Shoebridge said on his... i think). Motorcycles weigh a lot less though. I would have assumed the amp draw would be lower as well. Was I wrong on that too?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

A lot more. My car can pull 500 battery amps on a hard acceleration.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh yeah, it'l be much higher. I've pegged the meter on my bike (over 500A motor side, and over 200A battery side) before. That was at 72V, but it won't be much different at 96V. You draw tons of amps during acceleration.

Not sure who Gavin is, can you link to where he said that he draws 100A at 144V under acceleration? 

Just think about it 100A and 144V is 14400W, 80A and 96V is 7600W Peak. That's barely more than a scooter hubmotor. But you also have to consider, he's using a transmission, and motorcycles don't usually use transmissions. Even if you kept it, you still only have 7600W, which won't get you very fast very quickly.

The goldwing is NOT a light bike. You'll need some batteries to handle 2-3times that.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

gavin is located at http://www.kiwiev.com/ and is probably the reason I decided to do a conversion in the first place. 

I am holding off on the goldwing for now since it will be more trouble than it is worth. I guess the best idea is to wait for a smaller bike?

i could be wrong on the quoting but either way, i thought it would be much lower for a motorcycle to scoot along. 

also,what made you decide a motorcycle over a car? (if you don't mind my asking)


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

More trouble, maybe, but I think the long and short of it is, you're not going to be able to use your AC motor or batteries easily, and even if you could, it would be very slow. 7600W is not much, and 1.9kwh isn't a lot of range.

You could keep the goldwing, part out some of the motor parts, and save for a larger DC motor.

I'd suggest maybe looking for a different bike though, something a bit lighter. But that is up to you and what you like. 


I chose a motorcycle because the cost of conversion is generally lower than a car. Now that I have a LOT more into it, it's aproaching what a small car would cost to convert with SLA batteries. I'd still do a motorcycle because I have a thing for motorcycles, and I don't want to replace my daily driver. I want something I can have fun on and commute to work on nice days. I'm also an EE, so it's kind of a side effect of being into electrical things....


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok, sounds good. Time is one thing I have. I will wait for a smaller bike. 

To be honest, I had a car that I had actually planned to convert first. The story behind that one is a frustrating one however and I learned a lot from it. None the less, the car no longer belongs to me so I am exploring new options. 

I have never owned a motorcycle before so i honestly don't know what to look for. I know a dirt bike is probably too small, and now i know a goldwing or harley is probably too big.

The difficulty lies in the fact that I'm 6'4" so I don't exactly fit into the smaller vehicles... 

That being said, what type of motorcycle do you think I should look for? 

p.s. I would like to replace my daily driver because I HATE gasoline and the companies involved with it.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

any 600CC or larger bike should be good for a speed above 60mph and if you get the right lithium batteries, you could get over 50miles. Depends on what you want to spend.

I've got over $5k in just motor/controller/batteries. That doesn't include Battery management, Charger, motorcycle chassis, fiberglass fairings, contactor, cables and all the costs associated with fabricating the battery box and motor mount.

the expected range on the setup I've got is 40-50 miles, and speeds over 70mph (calculated over 80, but I doubt I'll do that much).


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok. 600cc. I can stick to that on Craig's list. 

very nice! how many kw do you think your battery pack will be?

i think 40-50 miles would be ideal for going to work and being able to run errands after if need-be.

I have been doing research on EVs for at least 2 years now, but I don't have any money to start anything yet. it's tough being in college and trying to do anything on the side.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> very nice! how many kw do you think your battery pack will be?


kW or kWh? kWh is capacity (Ah x pack voltage), where kW is the power (peak current and associated voltage).

My pack is using 160 38120S 10Ah 3.2V cells in a 32s5p setup, so it'l be 5.12kWh.

The max discharge I'm probably going to allow will be 500A, and at 10C (100A per cell), the voltage drops to about 2.5V a cell, so 500A x (2.5V x 32series) = 40kW. 



> I have been doing research on EVs for at least 2 years now, but I don't have any money to start anything yet. it's tough being in college and trying to do anything on the side


I've been into it almost 4 years, and still am just finalizing things. It's been a fun few years, and lots of researching.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

cool cool. so, since I'm doing the same thing as you as far as the battery pack goes. 

1: have you assembled a battery pack yet?
2: if so, what would be things to watch for/ short-cuts to use?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> 1: have you assembled a battery pack yet?


Yes, I've built packs for 2 different electric motorcycle companies, one for myself, one for a friend and am currently putting together this 160-cell pack. Click on my website in my signature and take a look.



> 2: if so, what would be things to watch for/ short-cuts to use?


depends on batteries. If you just want to get something going, get large format prismatics like Thundersky, CALB or GBS. If you want more power, use large format cylindricals like mine (headway 38120S), and if you want lots of power, expect to pay for it, and get A123, Kokam, etc.

I'd stay AWAY from 18650 and 26650's beause it's a PITA to weld all of those small cells and hard to replace them if they go bad. Get something with screw terminals.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok. screw terminals... got it.

Also, I was looking at the chargers you recommended... how do I know which one I need bases on my battery pack.

Is there some equation I can use to figure the amount of hours it would take to charge them up?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

> Also, I was looking at the chargers you recommended... how do I know which one I need bases on my battery pack.


chose based on voltage (or number of cells in series) and chemistry. Make sure its for Lead if you're going to use lead batteries, or lifepo4 if you use lifepo4.



> Is there some equation I can use to figure the amount of hours it would take to charge them up?


sure. Say you have a 5kwh pack and a 500W charger. the _most_ that the charger can do, is 500W for an hour. So after 1 hour, 500W go into the pack, or 500Wh. So you have a 5kwh pack, and 500wh in the pack per hour, you get 5000/500 = 10hours for a fully discharged pack. Most people don't fully discharge and most chargers are a little larger than 500W, but you get the idea.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

Ahh! ok. most chargers don't actually state their max watt output. you have to multiply it out to get it. Ok, ok. I see now. that makes a lot more sense now! 

what have you heard about the "quick chargers"? http://www.evolveelectrics.com/QuickCharge SCP144.html 
http://www.evolveelectrics.com/QuickCharger.html

they seem like a fair price.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

fair price, but heavy and not sealed. And I wouldn't get a portable charger, get an onboard charger.

I'd get an Elcon or better yet, a DeltaQ (same one I've got, and love).


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

i didn't notice that they were not onboard. Does the elcon or Delta-q charger handle both 110 and 220?

not saying that it's a necessity, but it would be nice. How long has yours lasted?


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

hmm... ignore that 110 or 220 question. I found my answer.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Spider-man said:


> i didn't notice that they were not onboard. Does the elcon or Delta-q charger handle both 110 and 220?
> 
> not saying that it's a necessity, but it would be nice. How long has yours lasted?


well, have only used it on a couple of test packs I built, but I know quite a few people that have em and they've been running well for a while.

They have 72V and 96V versions. I might upgrade to the one with built in DC-DC converter and sell the one I've got.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

well, if you decide to replace yours, let me know. I might be looking for one by then.

a dc/dc converter built in would be a very shiny feature. nice indeed...

How do you monitor your soc? I have been looking into this and it seems to be the one thing that eludes people the most. Some use just voltage but I have heard that that is guesswork at best in some cases.

What's your take?


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

My BMS measures my SOC. www.elithion.com It's a Lithiunmate Pro. A little overkill for a bike, but pretty snazzy.

There are some that measure current to get an idea of the state of charge, not sure how well they work, haven't heard much.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

wow. you built your own bms? is that difficult to do?

I have honestly thought about building the controller and other components myself. I'm just not sure how hard it'd be...


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

no, the BMS I'm using = my BMS. I didn't design it, but I work for them.

It'd be a lot of work to build a controller with decent performance. I say get it going first, then you can experiment, and sell the old controller if you finish and are happy with the one you design.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

What motor would you suggest using? just out of curiosity...


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

ok. New project. 

I have come across some mopeds from the 70's (i think) "honda express" they have 1 cylinder engines in them and I plan to convert them. (or just 1) 

like before, I still have that ac motor. I think this thing is light weight enough to work and I am moving to a place with the speed limit of 30-40 mph. (small town in Texas) what do you guys think? 

I really would like this motor to work with the mopeds I have. (since I am limited on money and such) i did some research and I think i can do the build for between 200 and 300 dollars. Think it is worth shooting for?

again: I am new at this so any and all advice is appreciated!


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

Light enough to work using an extension cord, yeah, but the issue is, how do you convert DC to something useable for that motor, and still have the ability to control the speed.

what kind of AC motor is it? Some are induction, but some are series wound DC motors that run on AC or DC. If it's an ac induction motor, you'll find it hard to convert. I'd suggest finding a DC motor.

Look at surpluscenter.com under electrical. They have lots of stuff that'd fit that bike.

I think $300 is a bit on the low side, especially with controller/batteries/charger.


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## Spider-man (May 9, 2011)

well, i didn't include the price of the batteries. I have those already. I am planning to use an inverter to change it from dc to ac current. from there, I should just be able to treat it like any ac motor sitting in a shop running off of 120v. the controller I found is cheap because it is for almost that application exactly. it looks like it's for a shop and has a pot right on the faceplate of it. I will post the link in a bit


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