# Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

--------------------------------------------------
From: "W9IP-2" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt Wikipedia says that the Chevy
> Volt's generator is 53kW. This seems awfully high. Does anyone on the 
> list
> know whether this figure is correct?

It sounds about right. That's only 70hp, doesn't sound too far off. Remember 
the average buyer is the same one that goes "Wow, the Viper has 5 billion 
horsepower, I want one" so if anything that it has only 70hp is something 
the salesperson is going to avoid. Of course it is more than enough, but 
that won't stop them.
Joe 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> W9IP-2 wrote:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt Wikipedia says that the Chevy
> > Volt's generator is 53kW. This seems awfully high. Does anyone on the list
> > know whether this figure is correct?
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I was comparing against my home AC generator which is about 5kW and seems
like a brute. Something 10-15 times bigger would be too big to fit in a
car. I must be missing something.

MRO




> Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >
> >
> > It sounds about right. That's only 70hp, doesn't sound too far off.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Mr ( or Ms.) MRO ,
It doesn't have to be 10-15 times bigger. Home generators are primarily
designed to be cheap, not small or light weight ( or, efficient) .

A well-designed engine - especially one made to run at a constant speed -
can be quite small and efficient. Same goes for the generator.

Phil Marino

Rochester, NY





> W9IP <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I was comparing against my home AC generator which is about 5kW and seems
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

To run my EV at 92 mph around a test track, took a three phase generator at 
37.5kW per phase or a total of 112.5kw. This was done at a lower elevation 
and at higher dense air pressure.

Up here at 3600 foot elevation, I had to install a 33.5kW generator with 
superchargers which could deliver a constant maximum ampere of 100 amps at 
120 volts per phase. Otherwise it would have to be over 40kw without 
superchargers.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W9IP-2" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:58 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator


>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt Wikipedia says that the Chevy
> Volt's generator is 53kW. This seems awfully high. Does anyone on the 
> list
> know whether this figure is correct?
> Thanks-
> MRO
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Chevy-volt-generator-tp24952883p24952883.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Duty cycle maybe...

It wont be able to make 53kw all day long.




> W9IP<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I was comparing against my home AC generator which is about 5kW and seems
> > like a brute. Something 10-15 times bigger would be too big to fit in a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I have seen that figure myself several times, and it seems way to high for
me. I read somewhere that it allows the Volt to maintain a speed of 100 MPH
as long as the gas holds out: this seems absurd to me, as I can't imagine
anyone (except on the German Autobahn) traveling 100 MPH other than in short
spurts. 75 MPG continuous seems sufficient to me.

-- Larry



> W9IP-2 <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt Wikipedia says that the Chevy
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I read a while back that the engine/generator are oversized because 
they used an off-the-shelf motor out of a compact car for the initial 
Volt model. In the future they will make a dedicated engine thats 
more like 35 HP to run the genset.



> Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
> 
> > Duty cycle maybe...
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Eduardo,
I would be surprised if it were not designed for continuous use. They have
to assume that it will sometimes be used on the highway for extended trips.

Why do you think the duty cycle is limited ?


Phil Marino
Rochester, NY





> Eduardo Kaftanski <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Duty cycle maybe...
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I agree. The series hybrid Miata(!) profiled in "The Zero-Carbon Car"
used a Fischer Panda diesel generator he ran on biodiesel. Personally I
think Chevy is taking the wrong tack by using the generator to drive the
car. If they used it to recharge the pack instead, then it could come on
and run at a constant "best" speed. It could be smaller because you
don't have to size it for the maximum load the motor could pull. There
might be times when you'd be discharging faster than it's charging but
most of the time the power flow would be in the right direction. You
just need to have it start up when there's still a bit of reserve in the
pack.

--Rick



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sounds Like a perfect application for a diesel engine. High torque,
> > low speed, constant load... diesel. Or, biodiesel for those that are
> > green-minded.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Aug 13, 2009, at 6:44 PM, Brett Davis wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Actually, the 2 mode hybrid drivetrain is interesting in that regard;
it has 2 motor/generators, one on either side of the transmission (more
or less; they're on some odd planetary gears so the points are actually
continuous curves).

What this really means is that the engine can be run at many points on
the power curve for a given speed. Eg, for max efficiency, you can run
the motor at 3400 RPM, and pull the power off at the motor side, and
deliver it on the driveshaft side -- more load, lower RPM more
efficient.

For max power, you could run the motor at 6500 RPM, *add power* at the
motor side, and add even more power (at low speed) on the driveshaft --
the motor is running at maximum power, and you're using both of the
motors in full-power mode (err... but the Volt's battery pack can't
handle that rate of discharge)!

Nifty system. The only thing the GaTech people found out is you have to
have the ICE turning at >50 MPH or you overspeed the internals.

I also like that, in brute force mode, you have 200KW of power to be
added, and if you have a battery pack that can do it, wow! 

-Thor


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Rick Beebe
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator

I agree. The series hybrid Miata(!) profiled in "The Zero-Carbon Car"
used a Fischer Panda diesel generator he ran on biodiesel. Personally I
think Chevy is taking the wrong tack by using the generator to drive the
car. If they used it to recharge the pack instead, then it could come on
and run at a constant "best" speed. It could be smaller because you
don't have to size it for the maximum load the motor could pull. There
might be times when you'd be discharging faster than it's charging but
most of the time the power flow would be in the right direction. You
just need to have it start up when there's still a bit of reserve in the
pack.

--Rick



> Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
> > Sounds Like a perfect application for a diesel engine. High torque,
> > low speed, constant load... diesel. Or, biodiesel for those that are
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Rick,

I thought that was exactly how the Volt is designed. A pure EV with a
gas generator on board for extended range. The gas engine is not
mechanically coupled to the drivetrain. Have they drastically drifted
away from the original concept?

Stay Charged!
Hump



> Rick Beebe<[email protected]> wrote:
> > I agree. The series hybrid Miata(!) profiled in "The Zero-Carbon Car"
> > used a Fischer Panda diesel generator he ran on biodiesel. Personally I
> > think Chevy is taking the wrong tack by using the generator to drive the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> On 14 Aug 2009 at 11:21, Rick Beebe wrote:
> 
> > Personally I think Chevy is taking the wrong tack by using the
> > generator to drive the car. If they used it to recharge the pack
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> EVDL Administrator<[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > If you then wonder why GM didn't just use a parallel hybrid design, or a
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> 
> > If you then wonder why GM didn't just use a parallel hybrid design,
> > or a
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Yeah, I have a feeling, as we all probably do; just as it happened with the
prius, we'll see full electric Volts running around with gensets gone 
it may take time, as the Volt is a little pricier.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I suppose there are a lot of reasons why peeps like SUV's. I may be one of
the few that liked them before they were cool. And one of the few that uses
them for what they were originally designed for...my 8pass td 4x4 often
hauls 8 people, benifits from the higher power/efficiency of diesel, and
often has the front axle engaged. My other "SUV" has actually driven over
cars on 2 occasions, but mostly gets used for backcountry recreation and
driving 6 miles to work and back.

That said, I also prefer a truck/suv for nearly any driving situation.
Selection of a vehicle to convert to EV is fairly narrow because of that.

>From a practical point of view, I'd rather see an EV minivan since that is
where a lot of daily driving and fuel consumption happens in our family. My
wife doesn't share my truck-love, she prefers a small car, but drives a
minivan (her choice) because it makes her life easier carting around the
kids, shopping, working, etc. Plugging it in everynight would be easy to
get used to...but she doesn't want to drive a "project".
Regarding the price: I won't spend $40,000 on a car. Someone else can, and
probably will. I spent $20,000 on my 2yo suburban (stickered for $42K) when
I bought it, and replaced it for $30,000 for a 2yo Excursion (stickered for
$50,000) and that's a LOT of vehicle. A LOT of usefulness, power, room,
etc. GM has their work cut out for them.

Brett



> Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Aug 13, 2009, at 6:44 PM, Brett Davis wrote:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 14 Aug 2009 at 11:21, Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> >> Personally I think Chevy is taking the wrong tack by using the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

This is from an artical by Tony Quiroga, after his test ride from the June
Current Events.
"The gas engine is never used to charge the battery;
the engine turns a generator that directly
feeds power to the electric motor. If the
engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making
25 hp, the electric motor will only be able
to make 25 hp. If more power is needed,
the gasoline engine could conceivably run
at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking
the point further, if the gas engine is only
rated for 100 hp (our estimate of its power
output), the 149-hp electric motor will
only be able to make 100 hp. The upshot:
the Volt will be quicker running on battery
power than it will be when the gas engine
is providing the electricity."
Shred




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 14 Aug 2009 at 11:21, Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

This is from an article by Tony Quiroga, after his test ride from the June
Current Events.
"The gas engine is never used to charge the battery;
the engine turns a generator that directly
feeds power to the electric motor. If the
engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making
25 hp, the electric motor will only be able
to make 25 hp. If more power is needed,
the gasoline engine could conceivably run
at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking
the point further, if the gas engine is only
rated for 100 hp (our estimate of its power
output), the 149-hp electric motor will
only be able to make 100 hp. The upshot:
the Volt will be quicker running on battery
power than it will be when the gas engine
is providing the electricity."
Shred




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 14 Aug 2009 at 11:21, Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Does this mean that I would be able to select whether I am running in Batt 
mode or ICE mode. (except in cases of depleted battery) Say I wanted to 
travel 100 miles from City to City and wished to use electric mode while 
doing the city parts of the trip. 
Rick Miller





In a message dated 8/15/2009 2:30:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:

This is from an artical by Tony Quiroga, after his test ride from the June
Current Events.
"The gas engine is never used to charge the battery;
the engine turns a generator that directly
feeds power to the electric motor. If the
engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making
25 hp, the electric motor will only be able
to make 25 hp. If more power is needed,
the gasoline engine could conceivably run
at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking
the point further, if the gas engine is only
rated for 100 hp (our estimate of its power
output), the 149-hp electric motor will
only be able to make 100 hp. The upshot:
the Volt will be quicker running on battery
power than it will be when the gas engine
is providing the electricity."
Shred




> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >
> > On 14 Aug 2009 at 11:21, Rick Beebe wrote:
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> On 15 Aug 2009 at 12:27, shred wrote:
> 
> > "The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the
> > engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Well, from reading a number of both old and new posts, my take was that the
engine never was used to supply energy to the motor, only to the battery.
But it was NOT used to fill up the battery but only to keep it from going
below the %30 level (the battery is to be maintained between %30 and %85 at
all times).

If the engine directly drives the motor, then the engine would have to have
continuously variable RPM, which I beleive is NOT the case.

-- Larry



> shred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > This is from an artical by Tony Quiroga, after his test ride from the June
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Shred -
This may very well be correct, but there are other reports on the web that
contradict this, and claim that the generator will, to some extent, charge
the batteries.
And, since this guy is a reporter ( and we all know how often they get
information about electric cars completely wrong) and, elsewhere in the
article, he uses "power" when he's really talking about energy - showing a
lack of any technical understanding - I don't have a lot of confidence in
his statement.

It would also just be a dumb way to set it up. There is no reason not to
use the battery as a buffer, so that you can get full motor power ( albeit
for a short time) when running the generator.

Phil Marino
Rochester, NY



> shred <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > This is from an artical by Tony Quiroga, after his test ride from the June
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Quiroga is definitely wrong. Once the battery level drops too low
(about 30%), the generator kicks on and begins charging the batteries.
At what RPM it runs has not been finalized (probably several fixed
RPM's depending on the current road load). GM calls this "charge
sustaining mode" and, as the name implies, the intention is not to
recharge the battery but to keep it above 30% SOC. So, to answer your
earlier question, you could both recharge the battery and refill the
gas tank at each stop. The recharge of the battery is not required,
but would obviously increase your MPG.

This is per Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah. See
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-customer-depletion-point/

-Steven



> EVDL Administrator<[email protected]> wrote:
> > It seems unimaginable that they would forgo using the battery to provide
> > peak power for acceleration and hill climbing. That's where some of the
> > efficiency improvement of a true hybrid comes from - sizing the ICE for
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

I have that issue in my toi-- I mean, reading room. Quiroga said in the
article that the engineer in the passenger seat indicated that the team had
not decided at that point how the system was going to work. Remember also
that there's a 1-2 month lead from when the story is written until the
magazine gets on the shelves. A lot can be ironed out in that time.


Tim

------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:59:13 -0500
From: "Steven **"
<[email protected]<montgoss%[email protected]>
>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

Quiroga is definitely wrong. Once the battery level drops too low
(about 30%), the generator kicks on and begins charging the batteries.
At what RPM it runs has not been finalized (probably several fixed
RPM's depending on the current road load). GM calls this "charge
sustaining mode" and, as the name implies, the intention is not to
recharge the battery but to keep it above 30% SOC. So, to answer your
earlier question, you could both recharge the battery and refill the
gas tank at each stop. The recharge of the battery is not required,
but would obviously increase your MPG.
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

Hi Steven,

It is not required that the genset has different modes of
operation other than one "optimally efficient" mode.
If this mode delivers more power than the vehicle needs,
it will dump the surplus in the battery and if the SOC level 
increases beyond a certain threshold, say 35% then the
genset can stop and wait until the SOC is again below the
Customer Depletion Level of 30% before restarting.
This is comparable to a Hybrid which stops the ICE after
you are done accelerating, to cruise down, stop and wait
at the next light, only to come on again when the light
turns green and you need the additional power.
The battery is perfect to bridge the periods between the
intermittent running of the genset, just like it does for
the first 40 miles when the genset is not needed at all.

All that is required is a bit of hysteresis in the control
of the battery SOC level and a genset that is designed to
maintain its temperature and emissions level when operated
intermittently. Hybrid vehicle designers have a lot of
experience with that already.

Running the genset always at optimal efficiency and keeping
the battery in an area where losses are low will allow
for the best efficiency of the whole system.
Also having the genset running while power is needed will
even avoid the low losses incurred with charging and
discharging, but that is only an optimization.

Of course the 40 miles electric range will allow for most
commuters' daily driving so the genset may be hardly ever
needed by quite a number of daily commuters.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 magicJack: +1 408 844 3932
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x109 XoIP: +31877841130

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator

Quiroga is definitely wrong. Once the battery level drops too low
(about 30%), the generator kicks on and begins charging the batteries.
At what RPM it runs has not been finalized (probably several fixed
RPM's depending on the current road load). GM calls this "charge
sustaining mode" and, as the name implies, the intention is not to
recharge the battery but to keep it above 30% SOC. So, to answer your
earlier question, you could both recharge the battery and refill the
gas tank at each stop. The recharge of the battery is not required,
but would obviously increase your MPG.

This is per Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah. See
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-cu
stomer-depletion-point/

-Steven

On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 4:10 PM, EVDL Administrator<[email protected]>


> wrote:
> > It seems unimaginable that they would forgo using the battery to
> provide
> > peak power for acceleration and hill climbing. That's where some of
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> Brett Davis wrote:
> >
> > I'm diggin' the VOLT...just wish it came in something less car like (think
> > jeep).
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: [EVDL] Chevy volt generator*



> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> >> If you wonder why GM didn't just use a parallel hybrid design, or a
> >> multimode combination series / parallel system like the Prius has...
> >> well, so do I.
> ...


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