# Nissan Leaf into Rover Mini...🤞



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

"Trying is the first step towards failure." - Homer

"I've made a huge mistake." - Gob

There is no amount of research that will give you the knowledge and experience of actual doing, so I'm shrugging at my ignorance and naïveté and jumping in.

Instagram: @RaidenMotors (though the Mini content is dwindling now that I'm more or less "done")

On my most ambitious day in automotive procurement thus far, I acquired both a (wrecked, drivable) 2014 Nissan Leaf SL as well as a JDM-spec 1992 Rover Mini Mark VI. My plan is to take the Leaf drivetrain and stuff it into the Mini. Wish me luck.

*Performance goals:*

50mi range.
75mph top speed.
One gear.

*Amenity goals:*

Air conditioning.
Heated seats.
Onboard charging.

*Hopefuls:*

Stock look.
100mi range.
Defrost/heat.
Fast charging.
Success.

There are two major hurdles for me, as far as I can see:

1) Get the Leaf motor spinning on a bench.

2) Get everything physically installed in the Mini.

Both are rife with unknowns and tribulations, but I guess that's the "fun"?

I'm exploring the Leaf hurdle in this thread. Plan A is to just transport over everything I need to trick the motor into thinking it's a Leaf on the wind. Plan B is to buy kits from some of the mad scientists around here to escape from all the proprietary Nissan stuff. Plan C is a Hyper9 adapted to a CRV transmission mounted to a Honda conversion subframe.

For the physical installation, I'm winging it, and I'm nervous. The best guide I have is photos from this thread where someone in Germany basically did a lot of what I'm hoping to do. It mostly involves a custom front subframe and axles.

I'm gonna eyeball the front subframe, but I anticipate installing something aftermarket both because I think they have a better chance of fitting the motor, and I would also like to upgrade the brakes and suspension while I'm mucking around here.

I would like to keep the whole battery in the same configuration, but package it differently behind the front seats. There might be room in the boot, but 400lb behind the rear axle seems extreme. 400lb of batteries behind the front seats also seems extreme, but I'm not sure how easy it will be to stuff battery modules throughout the engine bay, boot, and interior, but that's also an option (as is ditching half the pack, probably).

All told, I expect the Mini to come in well under 2,000 pounds with driver.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Decades ago I did something similar ish
I put a Lancia engine and gearbox in my mini

The basic system was 
Remove the front of the mini - front subframe, outer wings and inner wings
This gets you the front bulkhead

I then moved the Lancia "front subframe" into place and made up some support structure to hold it and the Lancia front suspension in place

I initially slapped a widened Clubman front on to cover it - But it was UGLY

So I managed to fit a proper mini front - at that stage the radiator was in the boot with air intakes behind the doors


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## skyguy_6153 (Jul 15, 2017)

Get a new brain board for the inverter from Paulholmes, and you'll no longer need the Leaf VCM. Also you gain control of the motor. 

Sent from my G3223 using Tapatalk


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> I'm exploring the Leaf hurdle in this thread. Plan A is to just transport over everything I need to trick the motor into thinking it's a Leaf on the wind. Plan B is to buy kits from some of the mad scientists around here to escape from all the proprietary Nissan stuff.


 I am nearing completion of my Suzuki Samurai conversion utilizing the leaf components alone. Other than some DTC/CAN troubleshooting and the fact that I am traveling for work, I'm almost there. With that said, I spent a large amount of time troubleshooting and bench testing the entire system, getting it to run on the proprietary Nissan components before installing into the Samurai. Everything worked. Following installation, that all changed. 

In hindsight, I believe my time would have been better spent getting everything to work with components such as Paul's board, Wolf's BMS chip( when/if he decides to make it available) and Wolf's pack sniffer2. Also, Skooler mentioned in another thread that Indra will soon have an option for a controller. 

After purchasing a new 2018 leaf and driving it for the last year, I have really enjoyed the E-pedal feature. This is a function that the 2013 leaf - and my Samurai will not have. Being able to use the motor to brake is a feature that I find extremely useful which has me leaning towards switching my strategy to utilizing what you described as "Plan B". 

Best of luck with whatever you choose!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Fortunately, this Mini conversion won't require the extent of bodywork or structural work that Duncan did, because the motor and transaxle should fit. Track dimension is an issue, so even if the Leaf axle shafts worked with Mini hubs (they won't) they would need to be made shorter... still much easier than fitting in the wildly wide stuff that Duncan's car used (for a very different type of car).

I think it's reasonable to assume that the subframe is key. Starting with a commercially-produced subframe (intended for conversion to some other engine) makes sense because it will have all of the body and suspension mounting points in the right places, but it will need to be significantly modified to fit the Leaf drive unit... and that seems like a reasonable approach to me. For someone with enough experience, building a subframe from scratch would be less expensive.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

D a n n y^ said:


> I spent a large amount of time troubleshooting and bench testing the entire system, getting it to run on the proprietary Nissan components before installing into the Samurai. Everything worked. Following installation, that all changed.


Whoa, that's alarming. What changed? Did you solve the issue?

I'm down to buy a new board to untether myself from proprietary stuff, but I want to be sure it replaces enough hassle to be worth it. If I get Paul's board and ditch the VCM, what can go with it?


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> Whoa, that's alarming. What changed? Did you solve the issue?
> 
> I'm down to buy a new board to untether myself from proprietary stuff, but I want to be sure it replaces enough hassle to be worth it. If I get Paul's board and ditch the VCM, what can go with it?


I have not solved the issue yet, as I am away for work. A number of things can go wrong though when fitting things into the vehicle. Between the VCM, BCM, LBC, IPDM, Inverter PDM an the entire harness, lots to get right when finally installing into the vehicle. My issue could be as simple as a bad ground, or possibly as complicated as an accidental mis-wire. Additionally, CAN is susceptible to crosstalk so perhaps my wire runs are messed up. A number of things that I could have screwed up. However, a key point is that whatever is wrong it is my fault. 

Originally I thought this would be the faster approach - and cheaper for getting my conversion on the road. Gaining more control over the entire system would be of benefit to me long term though.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, the Leaf showed up, and it seems to be in good condition. It drives on its own and has been plugged in for the last few hours. Seems to be charging and balancing pretty well, with no bad cells that I can detect. Water pump is whirring away, and it even came with a fast charger and nav.

When the car arrived, the traction battery was probably sitting at 5% for weeks. I was lucky to get it into my driveway before it refused to move. I think the battery is at about 80% of new capacity, which will work for me. I wonder if it has the "lizard" battery (which is rumored to have been quietly phased in starting in 2013).

It's a neat car! Under the knife it goes! Phase 1 is to try and get the motor spinning on a bench...Phase 1a is figuring out everything I might want to pull from this Leaf before I put it up on eBay...




























LeafSpy app screenshots:


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Some progress. Teardown is pretty straightforward. You just...pull stuff off. The hardest bit is freeing the wires and connectors. I used the Nissan dismantling guide for some, and the factory manuals posted earlier are very helpful for figuring out how things go together and come apart. Now is not a bad time to drain the coolant from the motor and radiator.










I managed to get the battery sled out by using two jacks, slowly lowering each side an inch or two, one after the other. The rear jack is a motorcycle scissor lift that came in handy due to its wide base and castors. I more or less did a variation of this guy's triple hydraulic jack approach. It goes faster with a friend.

Next challenge is to figure out the easiest way to unstick the battery sled cover...and I also need to figure out how to remove the axles from the gearbox...and a bunch of other things, but...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The gasket seal on the 2013+ battery covers is a _monster_. If you're looking to tear one down, a multi-tool will be your best friend.

This was helpful, though he does not demonstrate how much work is involved in releasing that gasket:

https://www.summet.com/blog/2015/04...san-leaf-battery-pack-and-remove-the-modules/

I attempted to use my shop crane to simply peel it off from one corner, and it ripped through the eye hole before it even budged. Then I tried a hammer and a chisel with some success. Then I tried an air chisel and it was worse. Then I looked up "power spreaders" and "gasket knives" with nothing promising...then I remembered my multi-tool.

It's not a slam dunk; it still took me an hour or two. The best method I'm aware of is:

1) Go around the whole cover and pry up the lip so there's ample room for the multi-tool blade.

2) Apply some upward pressure (if you can) to prevent the multi-tool from getting bogged down between the rubber as it cuts. I used my shop crane, but a floor jack and some S-hooks would do it. It just helps spread things and improve visibility.

3) Like when cutting something a bit thick with a razor blade, do several "light" passes as opposed to trying to cut through the whole gasket at once.

4) Leave one long side intact—you'll be able to clam-shell it with three sides free.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Tremelune said:


> ... before I put it up on eBay...



I put mine on Craigslist when I got everything off of it that I wanted. The only thing I ended up selling was the hubcaps, wiper blades and the center tail light. Some guy asked for the rear seats but could never seem to get to my house to pick them up. I ended up taking the shell to the scrap yard. 



I wish the best in getting rid of yours.



B


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## kremdelakrem (Apr 9, 2019)

Cant wait to see the money shot of the batteries without the shell.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Bit of progress. I got the main module packs out with the help of a shop crane and some dollies. Disassembly was reasonably straightforward with a pair of high-voltage gloves and docs/videos of others who have done it. The hardest part was the cabling clips, really. They can be tough to get to, and there are two kinds—you'll have to take a look behind to see how to release them. I don't know why I didn't just pry them all out, but I'm trying to exercise patience with this project...

Does anyone know how to tell if this is the "lizard" battery pack? I couldn't find any info on it.

To save me the hassle of removing a bunch of components that I would have to put back on, I'm just gonna cut the axles at the wheel—I'll only need (at most) one side anyway! Hopefully they'll pry out of the motor side fairly easily, but that is yet to be seen...Not much info out there on this bit, as I think most drop the front subframe. After reading about the procedure in the factory manual, I don't want to go through all that...I'm just gonna free the axles, unbolt the motor mounts, and yank it out the top.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

More progress on the "easy" part...I cut the axles and they pried out of the gearbox easily. I dunno how I'll mate them to the Mini wheels, but I'm hoping the answer lies under the rubber boot. Once everything was out of the engine bay, the motor lifted out with ease. I've pulled my first motor.

The hardest part of this teardown is dealing with the wiring harness. I've never seen so many wires, clips, and connectors in an automobile. Very few major components are actually detachable such that it looks like I'll need to take apart the entire dashboard and center console, disconnect everything, then fish the whole nervous system forward through the hole in the firewall. I wish I knew what was unused and safe to cut off.

The prospect of getting all this stuff in the Mini is proving daunting. Progress?


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

awesome conversion! how do you plan on controlling the leaf stack?

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I plan to control the Leaf stack by keeping all the Leaf stuff more or less intact...Excluding standard 12v components, everything in the Mini will think it's a Leaf...

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face, so we'll see what happens when I start snaking wires around...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> I plan to control the Leaf stack by keeping all the Leaf stuff more or less intact...Excluding standard 12v components, everything in the Mini will think it's a Leaf...
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face, so we'll see what happens when I start snaking wires around...


We've done that a few times now. Doable but complicated - you'll start getting odd behaviours that don't quite make sense! let me know if you have any questions. I posted a list of components required in the reusing with vcm thread a couple of years ago.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## kremdelakrem (Apr 9, 2019)

skooler said:


> Tremelune said:
> 
> 
> > I plan to control the Leaf stack by keeping all the Leaf stuff more or less intact...Excluding standard 12v components, everything in the Mini will think it's a Leaf...
> ...


How much of the dashboard did you have to remove to get the electrical out? We're you able to do it without taking the doors apart?


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## favguy (May 2, 2008)

I'm following with interest, keep up the good work. 

It's going to be a very tight squeeze getting this lot into the original Mini! Are you planning to turn it into a 2 seater to make more room for the batteries?


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

kremdelakrem said:


> How much of the dashboard did you have to remove to get the electrical out? We're you able to do it without taking the doors apart?



I took my dash completely apart because I wanted everything out of it so I don't know the minimum. The doors have connectors so you likely won't have to take them apart. I did everything without removing the doors from the chassis, too.


Bill


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Odd behaviors?? Like what? In my mind, I'm just going to drag everything out of the car, then plug it back in, and it will all magically work with a few error messages.

I measured the batteries at 36" wide and 9" high for the "large" 1/2 module. A quick measurement shows I could squeeze two of these in the trunk (and thus the full pack), but it does not do much for weight distribution, and I don't think there would be much room for anything else. So yeah, I'm aiming for a two-seater. I doubt I'll be putting many people in this car as it is...

According to this image, the motor will fit up front, likely with the inverter:










The "power distributor" up top on the 2013+ Leaf will likely need to live in the back seat with the batteries. I plan to run the high voltage wiring and coolant lines through the exhaust tunnel and up through some very-grommeted hole.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Now I tell ya hwhat, getting the wiring harness out of the interior of this Leaf is...unrewarding.

After taking the passenger side door apart and accidentally locking it forever, I was delighted to find that the wiring had a nicely detachable connector.

I was dismayed to find that I'm pretty much going to have to remove every piece of plastic from the front of this car (and possibly more) to get the wiring out intact. There is also no way that I can see for it to fit through the firewall, so it looks like I'm going to cut a big hole out to fish everything through.

If I had to do this again, I would have put the Leaf right in the middle of my garage and committed to just removing the entire interior, putting it in a pile, then tossing it all back in if/when someone agreed to haul it away.

As an aside, the HVAC system is the most complicated thing I've ever seen. I think the best I'll be able to do is _maybe_ use the AC compressor and hope to mate the rest up to the system in the Mini (or to something like a Vintage Air package). If the compressor needs brilliant signals from every component attached and working...I may have to figure something else out. For heat/defrost...I dunno, maybe duct tape a hair dryer under the dash...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

> I'm just going to drag everything out of the car, then plug it back in, and it will all magically work with a few error messages.[quote/]
> 
> Now you have it apart you'll see why this is a pain.
> 
> ...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Looking at the size of the grommet and the size of this, like, junction of two massive cable bundles behind the steering wheel...I don't see how the harness could pass through the bulkhead hole without cutting...I'm gonna wait until I get the HVAC console out and have every wire disconnected before cutting anything, though.

I'm not sure I can remove that metal crossbar, as I think I'll need to retain steering and braking to get this thing safely out of my garage...The way it's parked, I don't have room to open the doors wide enough to unbolt much of anything, I fear, though I could do that outside as a last step.


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> Now I tell ya hwhat, getting the wiring harness out of the interior of this Leaf is...unrewarding.



If you manage to get the interior and dash removed, the wiring harness does split. Each front door harness can be disconnected, as can the "aft or rear harness." The firewall hole is rather large and just about everything from the interior should pass through into the engine bay. This task may appear very difficult, however it is not as bad as it looks. Just be sure to label things before you disconnect them!


You can do it!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

It all goes a lot quicker once you commit to removing everything. I may have been able to get away with leaving the brace, steering column, and parking brake mount in place, but they weren't hard to remove, and having them out of the way made everything _much_ easier. It also let me pull the whole HVAC cluster (which I probably won't use, but...maybe some bits?).

The brace that the steering column attaches to is a bit of a head-scratcher. There are 2-3 bolts on each side that you can reach by opening the door and removing some rubber caps. The bolts need to be loose and out, but they don't need to be pulled all the way out (the door blocks some).

On the inside, there is a deceptive threaded bolt, but it's only there to act as a spacer. Once all the bolts on the brace are removed (including the steering column), it just lifts up and out. It's not too heavy, but the steering column is—watch out when you loosen the bolts!





































The steering column itself is attached in a few places, but primarily there is a long bolt that goes all the way through horizontally (near the blue wire), and two bolts closer to the wheel from which it hangs (with weird shims).










When everything is disconnected, the column will flop down heavily and awkwardly and then rotate collapsed to the floor...It stays fully connected to the rack, and reinstallation is the reverse of removal...but includes fighting gravity. I found it helpful to wedge my knee under it to lift it up into place will I slid the long bolt through. After that, it's easy to get the two "hanger" bolts in place. The knee is key.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Here's the glory hole! Everything did fit through to the engine bay, though it does require doing one cable at a time to some degree. They're all attached to each other, of course, so it takes some finagling. I needed functional brakes, so I never disconnected the lines, but I did need to bend one of the brake lines quite a bit to fit the fuse boxes through (all in the engine bay). Luckily I didn't rupture anything doing so.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Does anyone know what these connectors are for (by the doors and center)? If it's just taillights and crap, I'll leave them. If I can't figure it out, I'll have to pull out the seats and carpet to free them, and that's a can of worms I'd rather leave closed.


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

The second picture of the gray plug on the bottom, that is the LBC connector to the battery pack. You need that if you intend to use the majority of the other components as well.


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

D a n n y^ said:


> The second picture of the gray plug on the bottom, that is the LBC connector to the battery pack. You need that if you intend to use the majority of the other components as well.




I did forget to mention, to remove those wires, you do need to pull the seats and carpet. Everything runs pretty well hidden throughout side panels and underneath the seats. Some pass through under the center console too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Ah, got it. Bummer. What does it connect to if the motor and charger are in the engine bay??

I guess I'll find out.


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## D a n n y^ (Aug 4, 2015)

Tremelune said:


> Ah, got it. Bummer. What does it connect to if the motor and charger are in the engine bay??
> 
> I guess I'll find out.



This manual should help you see which connectors go where.


https://carmanuals2.com/get/nissan-leaf-2013-ev-battery-system-section-evb-47871


The CAN traffic is transmitted across the bus, which all the other modules/nodes are on Like the VCM/BCM/Ect. I'm not terribly CAN savvy so I can't provide detailed specifics but the manual is extremely helpful!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

At some point I became a bit religious about not cutting the wiring harness, mostly to eliminate variables as I try to get this thing working on a bench, so I went to perhaps greater lengths than needed...If I ever get it running on a bench, I'll try and better catalog what is and isn't needed.

I pulled out the front seats, much of the rear interior, and a fair amount of the headliner and rear bumper...Underneath it all is a black box labeled "CAPACITOR ASSY" which I think is about battery charging, but I really have no idea.










Apart from that, all the wires that go to the back seem to connect to nothing more than taillights and airbags, although I did find one of the smart keyless antennae around the rear seat.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Leaf teardown is pretty much complete. I was in somewhat of a rush to get it out of my garage/driveway, so I didn't do a great job of documenting the location of the various components. I did take many, many pictures of wire connectors and their colors, and they were extremely valuable when trying to get this set up on a bench.

State of affairs:










The plan is to get charging and the motor working in my "workshop" before removing components, opening the wiring harness, and removing the unnecessary items. I'm just gonna plug everything back in, put it in drive, and see if it spins. I'll probably figure out the details in this thread, as it seems more relevant there.


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

Tremelune said:


> a black box labeled "CAPACITOR ASSY"



I believe this is actually part of the brake system, to keep power to the brakes in event of main battery failure. I'm pretty sure i got that from the manual but it's been awhile.





Tremelune said:


> although I did find one of the smart keyless antennae around the rear seat.



In the 2015, there was another one in the rear bumper that I rescued before I got rid of the shell.


B


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

dedlast said:


> In the 2015, there was another one in the rear bumper that I rescued before I got rid of the shell.


Indeed, there was one on my 2014, too! I went back out and pulled the last one off the rear bumper—thanks! I feel better having all three blue connectors hooked up. I did notice that the numbers on this third device were different from the other two, but no matter.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Not much to report...I'm just getting the motor into my "workshop" so I can plug everything in and see if it spins (which requires some disassembly just to make it transportable by humans up stairs).

I found these two videos helpful in figuring out what to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GG3QRPGlPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo2shfLokCI

The top power module disconnects with a few 13mm bolts pointing upwards around the perimeter, as well as some wires, hoses, odds and ends...Don't forget the two bolts inside that make the giant electrical connection to the inverter...I was able to leave the compressor on, and I see no reason to break the seal for the top cover.

Now I just need to figure out how to wire it up. I've never worked with higher voltage wiring than 12, and I'm exploring what that takes here:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/foru...voltage-wire-crimp-connectors-and-200199.html


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm still trying to get the Leaf running on a bench...I think it makes more sense to explore that bit in this thread, since there is already a bit more relevant info in it:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/current-state-leafs-donorsi-199847.html


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## dedlast (Aug 17, 2013)

I couldn't get mine to work, either. I reread one of the lists and found that I needed to connect the heater core cable (which I see disconnected under the right corner of your bench) and I think the AC compressor cable. After that, everything worked as expected- the motor turned and accelerated and the batteries charged. 



Not sure how that might help, but I figured I would chime in.


B


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm wondering if there's a way to cut my battery pack in half for the sake of weight reduction...If I ditched half the Leaf pack, I could lose 200 pounds, improve packaging and weight distribution, and I would still probably clear 50mi of usable real-world miles, which is plenty for me. I'm already way overpowered, so torque loss is no concern.

However, if I cut the battery pack in half, voltage drops to 180-192v, which I understand would only allow my to spin the motor to 5k rpm. This would put my top speed below 40mph which won't much cut it.

Is there any way to step up the voltage without losing too much juice in the process? I'm not too keen on reconfiguring the battery at a sub-module level, and the cells are paralleled at the lowest level.

I looked into other battery packs, and the best I can find is the Tesla/Smart pack that does 1.4v/lb (as compared to the Leaf's 0.9-0.95v/lb). I would need 6-7 of those modules to get to the Leaf's 360-384v operating range, and that would weight 250-300 pounds...A savings of 100-150lb over the Leaf pack, but at a loss of 3-6kWh (still fine)...It mostly means that I'd need to tear apart another salvage car, which I'm not too thrilled about, considering I have half a Leaf sitting on a bench...

Edit: They're actually running 29 modules for ~220V, running 70% max torque (I'm not sure if this is limited by the batteries or the custom controller).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I'm wondering if there's a way to cut my battery pack in half for the sake of weight reduction...
> 
> However, if I cut the battery pack in half, voltage drops to 180-192v, which I understand would only allow my to spin the motor to 5k rpm. This would put my top speed below 40mph which won't much cut it.


Not exactly. Required operating voltage is dependent on both speed and current, so if (for example) the Leaf motor can produce enough torque (implying enough current) for 80 kW at 10,000 rpm with 360 volts, then it will operate at the same speed with only 180 volts, but at lower current and so lower torque and power.



Tremelune said:


> Is there any way to step up the voltage without losing too much juice in the process?


Yes, but I doubt it is cost-effective. In their non-plug-in hybrids, Toyota chose to use a much higher motor voltage than they could reasonably configure in the small battery, so they put a voltage booster in front of the inverter. So every Prius and other Toyota hybrid that doesn't plug in has the component you would want, integrated into the inverter... but it's relatively low power compared to a typical EV requirement, and not something you can salvage and plug into another vehicle. The efficiency should be very high; if it were not highly efficient, it wouldn't make sense for Toyota to use it. So you basically get double the voltage at half the current.


The usual way to get relatively high voltage in a moderate pack size is to use the modules of a plug-in-hybrid, since they're typically configured to about the same voltage as a typical EV, with a smaller pack.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Welp, I've given up on getting the proprietary Nissan stuff to work together. I wound up buying a Thunderstruck charger and BMS setup instead.

I'm still planning on using the whole battery pack, 'cause I need the full speed range of the Leaf motor to reach 75mph without using a transmission. I was hoping to cut the pack in half to save 200lb behind the front seats (a place where Minis don't normally have 400lb of bricks), but there's no way to reconfigure the pack and maintain the 400V without taking apart the modules. I might put some up front with the motor, but it's not clear what kind of space will remain up there, and it does make wiring a bit more involved. I'll need to get some corner weights before and after I get the motors swapped (if that ever happens) and go from there.

Current plan is to have a race shop mate the Leaf motor to the stock front subframe and sort out the axles. If they can make sure the output shafts are centered to the wheel hubs at the standard ride height, as well as make sure the axles themselves are the same length and angle (to minimize torque steer), I think it'll be a nice package.

I just realized that if I wire up the BMS to get charging working on a bench, I'll have to re-do everything once everything is in the car. I'm not sure I want to solder 100 wires _twice_. Ugh. Anyway, here's a picture of crap I bought:


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

How much did that little lot cost? - just nosey - although I may end up doing a Leaf machine myself someday


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## rich332 (Aug 13, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> Welp, I've given up on getting the proprietary Nissan stuff to work together. I wound up buying a Thunderstruck charger and BMS setup instead.
> 
> I'm still planning on using the whole battery pack, 'cause I need the full speed range of the Leaf motor to reach 75mph without using a transmission. I was hoping to cut the pack in half to save 200lb behind the front seats (a place where Minis don't normally have 400lb of bricks), but there's no way to reconfigure the pack and maintain the 400V without taking apart the modules. I might put some up front with the motor, but it's not clear what kind of space will remain up there, and it does make wiring a bit more involved. I'll need to get some corner weights before and after I get the motors swapped (if that ever happens) and go from there.
> 
> ...



Did you try the Arudino route? It seems a few people have got the Leaf motor controller, charger working fine, without all the rest of the gubbins, just using an Arduino to send the correct Canbus data to the stock Leaf controller. Costs almost nothing...


----------



## CanadaLT28 (Oct 15, 2011)

rich332 said:


> Did you try the Arudino route? It seems a few people have got the Leaf motor controller, charger working fine, without all the rest of the gubbins, just using an Arduino to send the correct Canbus data to the stock Leaf controller. Costs almost nothing...



There are many of us (me included) who get mightily confused by all the partial solutions to these issues. I can't program my way out of a wet paper bag let alone figure out canbus.
If there were a package in one place that could work the charger, dc-dc, the existing Leaf stuff would look good but either people figure it out and go on with their lives or give up and go another route.....


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I _did_ consider the Arduino route, but despite what I've read, it's quite poorly documented. There is a spreadsheet of CAN messages that I find somewhat incomprehensible. There is working code that exists but is very specific to the Arduino hardware and the Leaf component. There's no, like open-source Leaf program you can slap on a computer that can control everything, or parts of everything. It's this person's thing that allegedly works with the BMS and an aftermarket charger in _only_ the standard battery configuration, or this person's thing that controls the motor, but with no real world info on whether it's smooth and safe...

It would be worth exploring to save $3-5k, but not to save maybe a grand on the one component that's best-documented, etc etc...Each CAN node needs a board, which is $50-100 or a $200 combo board, etc etc...It's still just cobbling together a mishmash of personal projects that someone was good enough to expose to the world. Most of the "decoding" was done 5+ years ago, and some key people aren't very active anymore, it seems. Most of the motivation was around battery health and extending the life of a Nissan Leaf (as opposed to using them as donors for conversions)...I don't think that motivation is still there, now that five-year-old Leafs in good shape can be purchased for $5-10k all day.

Others who have had success are literally building businesses from their work (Thunderstruck), and it would be hard to convince them to spend a lot of time creating and maintaining an open-source project when they could collect money from me instead. I'm of the mind that open-sourcing all of this stuff would turbocharge the whole industry by getting more people involved, but who knows. When faced with the prospect of putting in the effort myself, I chose to keep my day job and spend the money! I would be very interested in writing the software, but not at all interested in decoding the CAN protocol or putting together hardware packages...

I only _kind of_ enjoy any of this. I'm not primarily in it for the thrill of the build—I just want to drive the car I'm building without waiting five years and paying six digits for it, as is the current state of affairs at EV West...and I like to tinker to a degree...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The total for the Thunderstruck charging components was just under $2800, including shipping and CA sales tax. I got the BMS and three "satellite" BMS modules to accommodate the 96 leaf "cells", as well as a nice display for the information, and a current sensor that allows more accurate tracking of battery depletion, among other things. Turns out the battery voltages are pretty wild when the car is moving, and it becomes difficult to have an accurate fuel gauge. Those were a couple hundred of surprise spend, but hopefully worth it. Charger was the biggest spend. It would've been real nice to get the 7kw Leaf charger working via the CAN bus, but not much has ever been done there, it seems.

I still need a DC-DC converter and controller board for the motor...and probably a throttle and some weird things to adapt gauges...but I figured first order of business was making sure I could charge the batteries...but now it seems like the first order of business is really the physical installation. Prolly shoulda waited. Progress over perfection...


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## electro wrks (Mar 5, 2012)

Tremelune said:


> I still need a DC-DC converter and controller board for the motor....



It looks like this VCU is included in your buy from Thunderstruck: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/dilithium-vcu.html
Do you need another motor control board in addition to this VCU?


----------



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

electro wrks said:


> It looks like this VCU is included in your buy from Thunderstruck: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/dilithium-vcu.html
> Do you need another motor control board in addition to this VCU?


I have a separate controller for the BMS and charger, and I suspect another will be necessary for the DC-DC, but I'll ask them. The VCU just gets the motor spinning (I _think_). I'm not quite there yet.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Welp, it's time to take this Mini apart. I'm doing some "while it's together" work to help inform some future decisions and help me sell off bits of the car that are still good. I'll probably hold onto them in case this thing never gets on the road.

My phases have changed a bit...My plan is to slap this thing together as simply and cheaply as possible such that it will move under its own power, then get the thing legalized. There could be show-stoppers with California registration, so that's a hurdle I want to get passed.

The other big hurdle is getting the motor attached to the car and front drive wheels...That'll require some professional help and will likely cost a few grand...I'm not even sure if it's possible yet, as the Leaf motor will be a real tight squeeze in there. If I go with a Minitec subframe...that's another $3k that disappears, and pro fab work would still be needed.

So. I'm gonna get the motor out, take a bunch of measurements, estimate the feasibility, and get some pros involved. Then I'll toss the batteries in the back, wire everything up, and see if it moves.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Welp, it's time to take this Mini apart. I'm doing some "while it's together" work to help inform some future decisions and help me sell off bits of the car that are still good. I'll probably hold onto them in case this thing never gets on the road.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Give us a shout if you need a hand with the motor/gearbox/driveshafts. We have a ton of experience with leaf motor mounting etc.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I took the opportunity to get some rough corner weights of the car to help me figure out where to put batteries when the time comes. I expect to put at _least_ 200 lb of batteries behind the front seats (400 lb total), so the weight distribution of the car might change significantly and I wanted to know what my real baseline was. It wound up pretty similar to what my internet searches said:

*Corner weights (empty gas tank, no driver):*
495 505
300 275
Front 1,000 (64%)
Rear 575 (36%)
Total 1,575

*Corner weights (empty gas tank, 150 lb driver):*
510 565
315 335
Front 1,075 (62%)
Rear 650 (38%)
Total 1,725

The front seats are dead center of the car. These things are great! Here's a shot of my scale setup...I just used four high-weight bathroom scales, some 2x4s, and some ziplock bags full of grease to help level the suspension when the car is lowered. Not particularly accurate, but well in the ballpark.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

skooler said:


> Give us a shout if you need a hand with the motor/gearbox/driveshafts. We have a ton of experience with leaf motor mounting etc.


I absolutely need help! I know next to nothing in this department, and planned on bringing the car to a local race shop to (hopefully) fabricate motor mounts onto the subframe and help spec custom axles. The tricky bit is that the EV conversion places around here are booked for _years_, the other shops haven't done much EV work, and no shop in the US has seen many classic Minis...Sooo we'll see how that goes!

If you have any resources I could peruse, I'm all ears. I don't even know what questions to pester you with yet! I think my main challenge is just...fitting the thing in there...hopefully with reasonable similar axle length/angle.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I created a thread on the UK Mini forum where I intend to discuss the more Mini-centric nitty-gritty of the conversion. I figure I'd leave the EV bits here (with some overlap in both places). Just trying to bring the relevant info to the interested eyeballs without a bunch of chaff.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Post the "mini bits" here as well

I'm an old mini hand - I had a 1430cc Mini convertible in the 80's - that ended up with a Lancia Twin cam


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

I've been working on minis for years. I will be scanning both the front and rear subframes soon to get all the dimensions and start designing up some mounts for both the leaf and the hyper9 motors as I haven't figured out what to use yet.
Have you spoken to the guy at esdi to see what he used to mount the leaf setup?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Tremelune said:


> Leaf teardown is pretty much complete. I was in somewhat of a rush to get it out of my garage/driveway, so I didn't do a great job of documenting the location of the various components. I did take many, many pictures of wire connectors and their colors, and they were extremely valuable when trying to get this set up on a bench.
> 
> State of affairs:


Howdy Tremelune,

i've followed your trail to other forums looking for answers, and appreciate your efforts and posting of findings.

I wonder if within this harness there might be a junction block or connector where the 2 CAN busses merge, or actually where the EV CAN buss is exposed that might be used for dedicated monitoring (somewhere on the VCM side of the EV buss)?

thank you and good luck with your project.

p.s. Great job on removing the harness intact.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Welp, the Mini engine is out...Time to start cleaning things up and figuring out the feasibility of installing the Leaf motor.

I have half a mind to try and put the motor in the rear, but that would involve cutting the chassis quite a bit...I also don't know how I would attach the axles to the rear wheels.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

pickmeup said:


> Have you spoken to the guy at esdi to see what he used to mount the leaf setup?


What is esdi...?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

kennybobby said:


> I wonder if within this harness there might be a junction block or connector where the 2 CAN busses merge, or actually where the EV CAN buss is exposed that might be used for dedicated monitoring (somewhere on the VCM side of the EV buss)?


I don't know much about Control Area Networks, but I believe all messages are broadcast across the bus such that you can hook in just about anywhere (such as the OBD2 port)...My understanding is that there is one network for controlling the car and batteries, and another for radio, HVAC, etc...


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> Welp, the Mini engine is out...Time to start cleaning things up and figuring out the feasibility of installing the Leaf motor.
> 
> I have half a mind to try and put the motor in the rear, but that would involve cutting the chassis quite a bit...I also don't know how I would attach the axles to the rear wheels.


I'm sure someone from the UK mini forum will pop up to confirm this but there were a few "Twini Minis" in the 60's. Basically they took a front subframe with engine and gearbox, locked the steering and installed it in the back.

Based on that, you could basically take whatever hardware you were going to apply to the front and use it to get rear wheel drive. 

This was the best link I could find to reference it: https://sites.google.com/site/minif...ula/the-john-cooper-connection/the-twini-mini


You would loose the front wheel drive characteristics of the car though....

Pete


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

KiwiPete said:


> You would loose the front wheel drive characteristics of the car though....


That would be my primary goal! It would be like a tiny electric Caymen...

I'll take a gander, these Twinis are wild...


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Its been 20 years since I've been under a mini - but last time I did major engine work I dropped the whole front subframe out from below - as opposed to pulling the motor and gearbox from above.

I know you've pulled yours - but you might consider dropping the subframe. At this point you've just got the brake MC line, shocks and mounting bolts to disconnect. You then pick up the front of the car (surprisingly light) and push it back 6 feet.

This will give you 360* access to the subframe/lower suspension/wheels/brakes etc and let you easily visualize where the leaf motor will go. much easier than trying to drop it in from above.

I don't recall if you mentioned it already - are you planning on using the leaf transaxle?

Oh yeah - don't forget to release the handbrake before you lift the front end and try pushing backwards...... 

Pete


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Lifting the car off the front subframe

By FAR the easiest way to do any serious work on a mini


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Indeed! I got the subframe out and on a bench next to the motor to take some measurements. I drew a Very Professional diagram of what is where, focusing mainly on the axle location and centerline...It's not a slam-dunk, but for how tight this engine bay is, it really fits pretty well.

My intention is to bring the whole car to a race shop so they can hack up the subframe and fab up some mounts, but I wanted to be reasonably sure this was feasible before involving the pros. It looks like it will be, with caveats. I'm happy to tear up the Mini subframe, but I don't want to redesign the suspension, so the pickups points are important. The AC compressor is right out; I think it can be put anywhere and there ain't much room where it is.

The axles will fit, centered, between the axle holes in the subframe, (though some slight relief will probably need to be grounded out). I'll likely enlarge the axles holes to ensure they can be installed. The Leaf has the axle output behind the motor just like the Mini, so that's nice.

The caveat is that I can't center the axle line front-to-back, because the reduction gear housing will stick out an inch or two passed the rear of the subframe, and the steering rack lives there. I'm hoping I can get away with 1-2" of misaligned axles (and I hope there is space up front before the subframe turns into the front grill)...I don't know what the repercussions are for them to be off-center (increased joint wear?), but I do want them at the same length/angle to mitigate torque-steer.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Somebody has replaced the doughnuts with springs - a BAD idea - you have limited travel with a mini so the rising rate from the rubber is essential

As far as retaining the mini's geometry is concerned - truthfully the mini's geometry was not very good
The low power available made it appear to be OK - but as soon as you had a decent amount of power it simply wasn't very good

If you start getting into problems with fitting the power unit in there then throwing the whole thing over a hedge and starting again is probably a good idea


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Duncan said:


> Somebody has replaced the doughnuts with springs - a BAD idea - you have limited travel with a mini so the rising rate from the rubber is essential


Were there any shocks on the mini, or just used the damping of the rubber doughnut?

i like the Very Professional™ drafting program, probly gonna download a copy


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Yep, the springs in place of donuts are universally panned, but I'm not going to make any suspension changes until I can drive it around for a while. I'll likely get the car legalized, then take it completely apart again to redo the suspension and get everything nice. I want real-world driving data with the components in the car before making any more major decisions.

What do you mean by geometry? Of the suspension? I see two choices: Stick with the stock suspension, and thereby gain all improvements ever offered for Minis over the decades, or purchase a Minitec subframe which comes with coilovers and adjustable alignment...I just fear a harsh ride and being locked in to somewhat proprietary components.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi

The mini geometry is not the best - when I went to my own design using Lancia Struts it became more difficult to lose traction despite having nearly twice the power

If you don't feel up to designing your own suspension layout - then stick to the mini one I'm more that a bit skeptical about the "racing" designs I have seen over the years!

If you do want to design your own I rate 
https://www.amazon.com/Race-Rally-Car-Sourcebook-Competition/dp/1859608469
As an excellent book fro you


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

I was thinking that that's the cleanest front subframe I'd ever seen - and then I reread your thread and saw it was a JDM mini. Makes sense now.

I see you're in LA. How did you acquire the mini? was it a local purchase or did you import it? 

I'm in Santa Ana

Pete


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Someone in Inland Empire does a lot of importation, and I bought it from him. He went through great hassle only to learn that California won't even give you a _title_ unless the car will pass smog. So, I have a Nevada title and a plan to get the car exempted from smog in California.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

kennybobby said:


> Were there any shocks on the mini, or just used the damping of the rubber doughnut?


Classic Minis with rubber springs had separate shocks, front and rear in the cases that I have seen. The front shocks are mounted vertically to the upper control arm, near the outboard end of the arm, in front of the bump stop pad; the rubber spring cones/doughnuts are inboard of that, near the inboard end of the arm (so they compress through a very short distance, and coil springs as replacements need to be very stiff). Trailers commonly use just rubber, and some trucks used to as well, but not cars as far as I have seen.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

That is from an early mini - pre- 1973 when they went to inboard CV's

Those old rubber cruciforms! - My mini used to turn them into St Andrews crosses instead
I got to the point I could change one by the side of the road in 20 minutes


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Duncan said:


> That is from an early mini - pre- 1973 when they went to inboard CV's


I'm confused: the inner joints are not visible in the first image, and the second image shows inner U-joints. Did classic Minis use constant velocity inboard joints at some point? Is that what is not seen in the first image?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

brian_ said:


> I'm confused: the inner joints are not visible in the first image, and the second image shows inner U-joints. Did classic Minis use constant velocity inboard joints at some point? Is that what is not seen in the first image?


Yes in 1973 they went to the "rod change" gearbox and inner CV joints

When I had my 1430 that kept twisting the inner cruciform Joints I built a hybrid gearbox with the old Cooper style remote - to help stop the power unit from moving - and the later inner CV 

The old Cooper S had a solid cruciform with needle rollers in place of the rubber cruciforms 


The next change - which is visible on Tremelune's image is the front subframe - 
In 1979 there was a change to the top mounts for the subframe - Tremelune's subframe has the later single mounting bolt - which means his car will have started out with the later and softer doughnuts


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The Leaf battery pack comes in three pieces: a "log" of 24 modules and two "steps" of 12 each. For better packaging in the Mini, my plan was to reorganize the steps into a second log and put them both behind the seats.

I discovered a small wrinkle when reorganizing the two steps...I procured some "log" brackets, but I found that they have some nubs that don't quite line up with my battery modules. It looks like the battery casings must have varied slightly from year to year, and these aren't quite compatible.

I was unable to compress the batteries enough to get any thread visible on the through-bolts, so I gave up and ditched the brackets. It's squeezed together with two metal end plates and the through-bolts, measuring 32" from battery edge to battery edge.

This probably won't affect many, but I figured I'd mention it...I'll try and find out what year the brackets were from. My battery pack is 2014. Second picture is what it should look like (flush).


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I discovered a small wrinkle when reorganizing the two steps...I procured some "log" brackets, but I found that they have some nubs that don't quite line up with my battery modules. It looks like the battery casings must have varied slightly from year to year, and these aren't quite compatible.
> 
> ...I'll try and find out what year the brackets were from. My battery pack is 2014.


If I recall correctly, the 2014 battery would be the second 24 kWh battery, or the "lizard" type which was supposed to handle high temperatures better. The original 24 kWh battery modules are the same size, but the cases look different; the 2016 model year gets the 30 kWh battery, which is again the same format but could again vary in small details. Even the 2018 40 kWh battery should be configured the same (again risking detail differences), but the 2019 Leaf Plus 62 kWh is different in lots of ways, with differently sized modules, differently stacked.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Go and buy some "threaded rod" - it comes in long lengths - use that to compress the modules together

My mistake - those are Leaf modules - I have no idea how they are held together


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Strange. The brackets are 2013 and the batteries are 2014...They should match up, but it seems like there's a slight discrepancy. If I ever take apart the other log, I'll see what's up.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I got in touch with the person who made this Mini conversion and he says the car does ~70mph with a range of ~60mi with plenty of torque. According to the photos, that's with 17 modules, which would be ~128V nominal.

I wonder if the light weight of the Mini and low resistance at top speed helps the Leaf motor reach higher RPM than expected at this voltage...I dunno.

I think I'm gonna go with one log of 24 modules and see how it goes. I plan to take everything apart and re-do if there car is ever legally registered in California, so I can always add more then if the car can't break 40mph...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I got in touch with the person who made this Mini conversion and he says the car does ~70mph with a range of ~60mi with plenty of torque. According to the photos, that's with 17 modules, which would be ~128V nominal.


But the update is


Tremelune said:


> Edit: Yep, it seems they're running 29 modules for around 220V, limited to 70% torque (either by batteries or the custom controller, I don't know).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Yep, I'm starting to get my threads crossed.

In any event, a 24 module half-pack will get the car moving, and that's all I need to get legal and dawdle around town a bit. Saves me some soldering and wrestling of battery packs and I can find out the real limits of the system in the real world.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

As I try and find a local fabricator or race shop, I drummed up a less ridiculous set of measurements...Still quite rough. The inverter need not be mated directly (though it is handy for it to be, and there is space even in a mini), but if it is it adds about 6" of height.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Although rough, these measurements should be very helpful to people planning conversions. 

In the first photo (from behind), I assume that the vertical dashed line is in the middle (left-right) of the drive unit... but not the centreline of the Leaf. In the Leaf, the motor is substantially offset to the right side.

The right-side output is interesting, because it is designed with a steady bearing so that it can use a long stub axle, and shorter half-shaft. If the drive unit were centred this would be great - allowing for equal-length half-shafts, but in the Leaf it just makes the right side half shaft shorter, with no clear benefit. In his truck, CanadaLT28 is placing the drive unit on centre (that is, just fitting between subframe rails equally spaced from centre), so this works out well, with long half-shafts of nearly the same length. It looks like the drive unit will need to be centred in the Mini just to fit, so half-shafts will be equal or nearly so.

I assume that the last photo is the stock Mini front subframe. Wow, is that close... perhaps it could be used with modification (such as the front bar being replaced by something that curves forward, but once one is modifying it would presumably be easier to work with the tubing of an aftermarket subframe.


----------



## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Correct! All of my measurements are focused around equal driveshaft lengths and angles in the hopes of minimizing torque steer. I'd rather cut and reinforce the subframe than relocate the axle outputs to off-center, if at all possible. I can fall back on an aftermarket subframe if need be, but I'd rather stay stock if I can.

It does not seem like the body will need any modifications at all. There is fair clearance on the right side if the subframe is cut out. The real sticky bit is that the motor will need to be 1-2" forward of wheel center in order for the gearbox to clear the steering rack (which is millimeters behind the subframe). I'm hoping the only downside is mildly accelerated CV joint wear...

I'm not quite sure what to do about axles. I expected to have a set made for about a grand by giving someone who makes axles some specs, but I'm not sure that's in the cards (or at least, I'm not sure where to look). Most fabricators don't like to weld axles because of the alloys involved. I dunno. I'm still asking around. Gotta make sure the motor fits, first!


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi
I would be looking for another Mini front subframe - they used to be 10 a penny!

Then you could cut and shut on the scruffy one until you are happy with it before modifying your good one


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

You should be able to sleeve the shafts as I've done it before on a couple of 16v builds.
Im currently finishing my hyper 9 mockup and then I can start cracking on looking at mounts using a standard subframe.
Have a look over at the 16v mini forum for subframe designs. It should give you an idea what you can get away with.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Some progress. I wired up the BMS and can successfully get the voltages of each of the 48 paralleled cells in my brick of 24 modules. It was a bit tedious. Unless I'm mistaken, Nissan labels the cells from 1-48 starting from the module that is the most positive. Thunderstruck labels the cells starting from the most _negative_. That confused me for a bit.

Thunderstruck also wants the "W0" wire on each BMS harness to be attached to the W13 wire of the _previous_ harness in the group. It makes sense, but also involved some head scratching. First tap is pack negative...The first tap in the next group is that last tap of the previous group...Last tap is pack positive.

I'm now faced with a bit of a dilemma: The charger I bought was intended for a full pack, but now I'm trying to use only half to see how it goes...The charger's minimum voltage output is 200V. The total voltage of my half-pack goes from 158V to 202V (from 3.3V to 4.2V).

I'm wondering to what degree I can charge this pack with this charger...Even if it takes a long time, or I can only do it in bursts, I'd rather not mess with it until the car is on the road, but I don't want to stress anything out!





























```
bmsc> show cells
 c1 - 3.859v        c13- 3.860v        c25- 3.858v        c37- 3.863v +     
 c2 - 3.862v        c14- 3.861v        c26- 3.862v        c38- 3.863v +     
 c3 - 3.856v --     c15- 3.857v -      c27- 3.862v        c39- 3.862v       
 c4 - 3.863v +      c16- 3.862v        c28- 3.860v        c40- 3.858v -     
 c5 - 3.858v        c17- 3.860v        c29- 3.860v        c41- 3.860v       
 c6 - 3.865v ++     c18- 3.858v        c30- 3.863v +      c42- 3.863v +     
 c7 - 3.859v        c19- 3.855v --     c31- 3.861v        c43- 3.862v       
 c8 - 3.863v +      c20- 3.862v        c32- 3.864v +      c44- 3.860v       
 c9 - 3.864v +      c21- 3.860v        c33- 3.857v -      c45- 3.859v       
 c10- 3.863v +      c22- 3.864v ++     c34- 3.862v        c46- 3.863v       
 c11- 3.857v -      c23- 3.862v        c35- 3.855v --     c47- 3.863v +     
 c12- 3.862v        c24- 3.861v        c36- 3.860v        c48- 3.859v       
bmsc> show map
 ltc|pack|group| cells
----|----|-----|----------------------------------
  1 |  1 |  1  |(c1 -c12) X X X X X X X X X X X X
  2 |    |  2  |(c13-c24) X X X X X X X X X X X X
  3 |    |  3  |(c25-c36) X X X X X X X X X X X X
  4 |    |  4  |(c37-c48) X X X X X X X X X X X X
```


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Tremelune said:


> More progress on the "easy" part...I cut the axles and they pried out of the gearbox easily. I dunno how I'll mate them to the Mini wheels, but I'm hoping the answer lies under the rubber boot. Once everything was out of the engine bay, the motor lifted out with ease. I've pulled my first motor.
> 
> The hardest part of this teardown is dealing with the wiring harness. I've never seen so many wires, clips, and connectors in an automobile. Very few major components are actually detachable such that it looks like I'll need to take apart the entire dashboard and center console, disconnect everything, then fish the whole nervous system forward through the hole in the firewall. I wish I knew what was unused and safe to cut off.
> 
> The prospect of getting all this stuff in the Mini is proving daunting. Progress?


You will need to splice both sides of shafts together. There is a procedure for doing it correctly. This is how you retain shaft torque capability. Just welding it is not good. 
Here you can see my work:
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/2019/05/11/driveshaft-extension/

Observe i did weld shafts on the circumference, however i further drilled 2x radial holes into the larger diameter shaft at 90deg apart and weld them in. First I put inner shaft in a lathe to run it down a bit so both shafts were a good fit. Then i welded the circumference and filled outer holes on the inner shaft. This way inner and outer shaft now have the torque capability of a homogenous part. 
You may use an outer sleeve to join them, but both shafts have to be fitted to it.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> ...I cut the axles and they pried out of the gearbox easily. I dunno how I'll mate them to the Mini wheels, but I'm hoping the answer lies under the rubber boot.


I never did understand why you cut the axle shafts. That's a lot of unnecessary work, and eliminates some options for using the shafts.Normally you remove the nut which retains the axle in the hub, take apart enough of the suspension to allow the hub to be pulled outward and release the axle, then pull the axle out of the transaxle. The whole axle assembly with joints on both ends and the boots intact comes out as one part.

Under the boot, all of these CV joints have the outer cup (the visible part), an assembly with balls or rollers which runs inside the cup (depending on the specific design), and the shaft with splines which inserts into that inner assembly on each end. The cup and inner assembly are a matched set but the same CV joints can be used with various lengths of shafts and various types of joint at the other end, as long as the splined ends are compatible.



Tremelune said:


> I'm not quite sure what to do about axles. I expected to have a set made for about a grand by giving someone who makes axles some specs, but I'm not sure that's in the cards (or at least, I'm not sure where to look). Most fabricators don't like to weld axles because of the alloys involved...


Rational professionals avoid welding axles and steering components (such as the steering arm attached to the hub carrier), both due to the unsuitability of the materials for welding, and the consequences of failure. Axle shafts are particularly problematic because of the need for them to be straight and balanced; production axle shafts are machined from solid stock, with no welded assembly.

I assume that in the photo, the shafts are (from left to right)

Leaf left side, inboard end
Leaf right side, inboard end
both Mini shafts, outboard ends
The Mini shafts look (as expected) smaller in diameter than the Leaf shafts, so there is not likely any chance of machining new splines on their inboard ends to insert into the Leaf CV joints. Going the other way, there might be enough length left of the Leaf shafts (given the decrease in track dimension) to have them turned on a lathe and splined to insert into the Mini outer CV joints, instead of the stock Mini shafts.

It's hard to tell what other options might be available without seeing the other ends of the shaft assemblies, but other interesting adaptations are possible, aside from welding shafts together at the middle. For instance, in his Westfalia T3 with Chevy Bolt drivetrain, Yabert modified the inboard Bolt cups to become stub axles to which the VW shafts bolted through a flange, because VW inboard joint cups bolt to a flange instead of having a splined stub.


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## arber333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well of course after welding i had to do some annealing to releave stress in the welded spots. Without that welded carbon steel is brittle like glass. 
There is not so much science as experience and some sense. You follow colour of heated steel vs the colour table and specific steel properties. Then you leave it at that temperature for specified time and finally slowly cool in oil.

Worked this before on some transmission shafts for tractors and other machinery.

Real danger will be me if i try to push the Leaf gearbox too much.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Humbug. I think using the stock Mini subframe is out. The final bit was the axles. There simply isn't enough room to get the axles in and out with the motor in place (and there's no way to remove the motor with the axles in place).

The rearward motor position is the critical measurement...The axles will _always_ be at an angle when rotating with this swap, which will accelerate wear, I expect. I don't see any way around that without cutting the body and/or moving the steering rack. Even if the subframe were completely cut away, the body of the car is _directly_ behind it, and the steering rack directly behind and below as well.

The axle holes _can_ be enlarged to sneak the axles through (_maybe_ 1/2"), but not at the angle that they need. The boots might also rub the edges. The Leaf motor will be about an inch further back than what is in these photos when dropped into place, but that's it, and it's not enough to keep the stock subframe without really mangling it...I don't see any way around it without changing the suspension pickup points, and I'm just unwilling to do so. 

Education is expensive.

So. New plan is to pick up an Allspeed subframe designed for a Nissan G10/G13. The Allspeed subframes use the stock suspension, have been around and steadily improving for years, are made with square tubing (which is easier for me to work with than round), and are pretty well proven in terms of strength and handling.

Compromises:

- It might wind up being $2k and two months to get this thing to California.

- The lower arms must be replaced with somewhat proprietary "spherical" lower arms. This will increase NVH a bit, but allow for greater alignment adjustment and handling precision.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My tuppence worth

Just hack away at the old subframe 

What I would do

I would make an external temporary frame to ensure that the right and left hand side of the subframe stay where they are

Then I would gleefully cut away everything that is in the way - using the temporary frame to keep the subframe together

Then I would add metal back to do the job of the bits you have cut away - but clearing your new power unit

Then when it's all good take/cut off the temporary frame


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## Vudu (Oct 28, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Humbug. I think using the stock Mini subframe is out. The final bit was the axles. There simply isn't enough room to get the axles in and out with the motor in place (and there's no way to remove the motor with the axles in place).


I've been reading through this topic since discovering it this past weekend. I have had the notion of an electric Mini on my brain for a while and I have an idea that may help you.

I currently have 3 Minis with two of them being slated for Honda D16 engine swaps using a custom subframe from McGees Custom Minis in Maryland. John McGee builds round tube subframes that accommodate the Honda D16 engine/trans but still maintain the stock suspension components and track width. "Yeah, but that's ICE technology" - right, BUT there is a company that makes an electric motor adaptor to mate with the Honda D series transmission!

Despite already having purchased two subframes and two D16 engine/trans, I'm very seriously considering using one of the subframes and transmissions for an electric conversion of my '91 Mini saloon. I'm still quite green to EV tech but with what I've learned so far, this seems like a great swap. The Mini is a naturally light weight platform to start with and many other builders have proven the ability to house the motor, controller and batteries in its tiny space.

I'm 6ft tall and in order to achieve a more comfortable driving position and leg room, I'm relocating the front seats rearward a few inches (I'm using 2016 MINI Cooper S units with electric heaters). That mod makes what was already a small rear seat area completely unusable for passengers. With that in mind, I've removed the side storage compartments (front seats interfered with them) and will be removing the rear seat pan base which then makes it an ideal location for the batteries. I've even considered fabricating a dropped floorpan space in the middle of the rear subframe to house the batteries and get a lower center of gravity. 

I know you've gone pretty far down the Leaf route but perhaps the Honda D series trans and subframe swap would be a better choice? The bonus is that shipping of a subframe within the US versus from the U.K. would amount to some savings...and Honda D series transmissions are still rather plentiful.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Do you have a link for the Honda transmission adapter? I found someone was building one, but it was not, like, a purchasable product. The bigger concern is the mating the output shaft...It's gotta spin perfectly smooth at 10k RPM.


I was in touch with McGee and decided on the Allspeed, though I'm not sure I remember why anymore. I think the track width _does_ increase a touch, but looking back at my conversations with him, he didn't answer that question, so I dunno. He recommends adjustable lower arms, too, so maybe that's similar to the Allspeed setup?

Costs and timeframe are about the same. Square tubing is easier for me to weld stuff to, but that's not a huge deal. The Honda subframes require cutting the body, which also isn't that big a deal. The real benefit of the Honda subframe is that, if I can't get the Leaf motor in, maybe I can use a CR-V transmission...which could then grow into an AWD setup in the future (for jsut a few thousand more!)...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> New plan is to pick up an Allspeed subframe designed for a Nissan G10/G13. ...
> 
> Compromises:
> 
> - It might wind up being $2k and two months to get this thing to California.


For a US$475 bit of framework? Ouch! Is there someone in California who can build a custom subframe for you for less?


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

is it possible to get some more photos of the ESDI front subframe setup? That could help you greatly with saving time, the guys at london electric cars have just completed a nissan leaf conversion in a mini so they could also be worth speaking too?


Ive just got hold of a mitsubishi outlander rear electric diff, it looks as though it could be compact enough for me to not have to cut up the front mini subframe.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I decided to purchase McGee's MCM front subframe. It uses the Allspeed towers, but allows for the use of all stock components, and provides a lot more space for the motor and axles. Unfortunately, it'll be a few months before I get it, so I'm switching gears to installing the battery and charging system.










I drummed up a wiring diagram with all the components I'm expecting with the lovely and free draw.io. I have a Thunderstruck BMS, charge controller, and 312v TSM2500 charger, and display that are all designed to work together, which is quite nice. Documentation is comprehensive, and everything is very well thought out. I plan to pick up their motor controller and DC-DC (Volt) converter as well (although I'm hoping to go without DC-DC until the car is on the road and registered).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

After getting into the weeds of the specs, it seems I'll need at least 30 modules to be within the charger voltage range (200-420v), and 34 modules to be within the DC-DC converter range (260-420v). I thought about going with a full pack, but I'd reeeally like to see how it performs with a lighter pack in the real world before I commit to all of the weight.

The goal is to put as much weight low, centered, and forward (in that order) as possible, while taking into account the fact that having batteries stashed all over the place is a pain in the ass in terms of wiring and installation...I'm gonna go with the simplest option until the car is driving and legal, and go from there.

After a brief foray with my custom _Rapid Prototyping Device_ (RPD), I decided to just measure and do a quick (lovely and free) Sketchup diagram of some battery installation options. Each of these involves cutting out the "shelf" of the rear seat that projects forward from the "real" seat floor. These measurements aren't precise, and certain configurations would require more "massaging" than others, but it helped me visualize the configuration without clumsy boxes or lugging batteries around. The "rows" are by module count (48, 36, and 30).

The packaging of these Leaf modules is delightful. I hope they keep a similar form factor moving forward!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I managed to install the battery pack into the car (minus extra the 6-module pack I'll need). It was an involved endeavor, utilizing my janky gantry, a shop crane, and some careful fuckering to get them all the way onto the rear seat. I'm not quite sure how I could do it differently without splitting the pack (due to the 3-foot rods that span it), but this was a precarious performance I'd rather avoid in the future. Looks like it was made to be there, though, which is nice...The pack sits on a board of wood to ensure a flat surface for the modules to span.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

A cautionary tale...I was wiring up the BMS while the 48v mini-pack was connected together, and in a moment of boneheadedness, I cut all of the wires together, shorting them out. After a surprising SNAP, the wires _immediately_ caught fire.

I am an idiot (with insulated wire cutters).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

More info on the battery module "spacers" that had been bugging me...I believe the 2013 brackets _are_ the same as the 2014 brackets, but as they come from Nissan, they're sort of pressed or embedded in the casing of the module. Separating them involves conscientious prying, and I'm not sure they can be used with other modules without putting a dent in the casings...Maybe that's fine, I dunno. I'm inclined to ditch them.

Random info: The rod that holds the pack together is .2" in diameter with M6 threading.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> The rod that holds the pack together is .2" in diameter with M6 threading.


That's a bizarre mix of units. 
So it's roughly 5 mm rod, with a rolled (rather than cut) M6 thread.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I managed to install the battery pack into the car...


So you have a workshop adjacent to the garage, and a hoist in the garage? That's almost cheating in the DIY world...


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> The packaging of these Leaf modules is delightful. I hope they keep a similar form factor moving forward!


All Leaf modules have been the same format... except the latest Leaf Plus (or Leaf e+ outside of North America) which has a 62 kWh pack, made up of similarly designed and sized modules, but more of them and more closely packed. These new modules are still in vertical stacks, but there are now 16 stacks (four rows across and four rows front-to-back) - tallest under the rear seat, shorter under the front seats, and shortest under the rear footroom. Modules are paired (like the later versions of the original style), and appear to be the same length and width. There are 288 cells; that suggests 96s3p instead of 96s2p, but the specs say that there are 8 cells in a (double) module and it is still 96s... so who knows what they actually did?
Here Is The Nissan LEAF e+ 62 kWh Battery: Video


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

brian_ said:


> All Leaf modules have been the same format... except the latest Leaf Plus (or Leaf e+ outside of North America) which has a 62 kWh pack, made up of similarly designed and sized modules, but more of them and more closely packed. These new modules are still in vertical stacks, but there are now 16 stacks (four rows across and four rows front-to-back) - tallest under the rear seat, shorter under the front seats, and shortest under the rear footroom. Modules are paired (like the later versions of the original style), and appear to be the same length and width. There are 288 cells; that suggests 96s3p instead of 96s2p, but the specs say that there are 8 cells in a (double) module and it is still 96s... so who knows what they actually did?
> Here Is The Nissan LEAF e+ 62 kWh Battery: Video


The page you're linking to literally says "New battery pack has three different module shapes with different numbers of cells; previous battery has only one module size" next to a drawing of the old one with 8 cells per module and the new one with 27, 12 and 21 cell modules. All of these are divisible by 3, and I doubt that's a coincidence


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

olegil said:


> The page you're linking to literally says "New battery pack has three different module shapes with different numbers of cells; previous battery has only one module size" next to a drawing of the old one with 8 cells per module and the new one with 27, 12 and 21 cell modules. All of these are divisible by 3, and I doubt that's a coincidence


Ah... it's all coming back. I did sort that out a while ago, but too quickly pulled up the link and put in my comment yesterday. The slideshow attached to the article shows the original double modules so I got sidetracked; the stacks are indeed one module per stack, not stacks of modules. The cell dimensions are similar to the original.

Well, the short stacks are pretty small, so there's still lots of re-packaging potential. And just like the more common LG modules, they are stacks of cell frames which could be re-constructed to any desired length.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

Tremelune said:


>



Looking good, Im still hoping to retain the rear seat when i do a saloon, but battery location in a mini whilst not cutting into the shell in any way is going to be fun. The marcos doesn't have any rear seats so i have a bit more room for manoeuvrer.



What are you going to make your battery box from?


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## kennybobby (Aug 10, 2012)

Tremelune said:


> A cautionary tale...I was wiring up the BMS while the 48v mini-pack was connected together, and in a moment of boneheadedness, I cut all of the wires together, shorting them out. After a surprising SNAP, the wires _immediately_ caught fire.


Now you're getting scary, don't let this be you.











i can't seem to embed a video, but see also:

https://youtu.be/2cIo95W-vfE


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

pickmeup said:


> What are you going to make your battery box from?


I'm just strapping them down with the rear seatbelt brackets. Once the car is on the road and sorted, I might build something less clunky.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Charging is underway! The wiring diagram grows increasingly complex as I get down to the nitty gritty.

I was getting precious with my wiring, trying to fit everything in nice boxes using pricey Deutsch connectors and DillBlox and what not, and it really slowed me down. I've since moved to cheap components, Gorilla Tape, and ABS boards. I'm in full-on prototype mode, and I think it was wise, as I've changed things several times. I suspect I'll change them again, too, so I'll wait until I'm much further along before I make anything look nice. For now I'm just throwing wires around to get things working! I'm using CAT5e for the longer CAN bus runs and it's working well so far.

I was planning to use a J1772 connector, but the fuel inlet was too small in diameter. It also occurs to me that I'll only ever be doing 5A of charging from a 120V outlet anyway, so I'm just using a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle and some relays to turn the controllers on/off. I found a nifty relay that can switch 12v power with line-level signal inputs, so I wired it into the charge inlet in order to cut power to the VCU when plugged in (so I don't drive away while charging). I also wired in a Battery Tender Jr to ensure that the 12v battery gets charged up as well. The proximity signal is just run to ground such that whenever the charge controller is on, it thinks it's plugged in.

The charger charges, lowers the current to help with balancing at a certain charge amount, and cuts off when the limit is reached. I tested the temp sensors and cutoff with a heat gun, and that's working too. The batteries stay at ambient temperature after an hour of charging at 5A, which is lovely. So far, I'm quite happy with the Thunderstruck bits.

The reverse signal from the Thunderstruck controller is a 5v output, so I had to find a special relay (that red/blue one) that takes a 5v signal trigger to switch a 12v source in order to switch on the reverse lights.


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## olegil (Jan 7, 2012)

5A at 120V? That's extremely little for an EV. We charge daily at 10A/230V on a model 3 that gets driven 90km per day. When I use it, it's a little less use and charging over night. When wife drives it, she drives a bit further but charges while at work also. Can't imagine having only a quarter of the power for charging. That wouldn't get us very far.


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## Ozinjersey (Nov 1, 2017)

Hi mate, any updates ?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Not much to report! I'm kind of waiting on the delivery of the McGee subframe, but mostly I just have other tasks that have taken priority these last few weeks.

I've been monkeying around with CAN-bus and Arduino stuff in the hopes of getting a working AC compressor without having to spend a grand...


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## jkelly (Sep 18, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Not much to report! I'm kind of waiting on the delivery of the McGee subframe, but mostly I just have other tasks that have taken priority these last few weeks.
> 
> I've been monkeying around with CAN-bus and Arduino stuff in the hopes of getting a working AC compressor without having to spend a grand...


For AC and CAN, here's a good option. I think these can run anywhere between 200 and 400v, can't remember where I read that? Sounds like you know how to run can on Arduino. My son has done that for several things. 

http://www.ev-guide.com/rx8-conversion-blog/2016/3/9/air-conditioning-can 
https://malfunction.faed.name/2013/04/azure-dynamics-air-conditioning.html
https://www.usedpartsrus.com/produc...pressor-a-c-clutch-am6419d623bb-mercury-milan


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

That is great info, thank you!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The subframe from McGee's Custom Mini's has arrived! Next hurdle is getting the Leaf motor correctly positioned within the subframe. I'm hoping some inclined planes made of wood (doorstops) will allow for relatively precise positioning. I'm still not quite sure what to do for actual mounts, but that should become more clear once I get it in.

Utilizing Paper Aided Design (PAD) and non-laser measuring tools, I was able to figure out where the center of the output shafts are vertically, relative to the tower tops. The plan is to position the axle outputs at 3" above the lower square tubing of the MCM subframe, and as far back as I can without the motor hitting the body.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

With the assistance of organic inclined planes, I've got the motor positioned. I had to cut out a bit of clearance at the front, so I welded a janky support in place to prevent the frame from moving around until I can weld in a new tube.

I used magnets and razor blades to visually confirm that the center was at the right height by looking through the gearbox, and some rulers and squares to ensure that there is enough space in the rear (the Mini body is more or less flush with the rear of the towers above the steering rack).

The plan is to weld some "spars" inward of the the existing spars to avoid having to cut the Mini, then attach the motor mounts to those. I don't need all that extra space, and I'd rather not muck with the Mini if I can avoid it.


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Progress is looking good. I'm excited to see this coming together.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Sanity check on the McGee subframe!

I was measuring things up for motor mounts and realized I still had some questions about where the body was relative to the subframe, so I put it on the car. I had to cut out the inner fenders some (I cut more than I needed to, but I found it difficult to measure) as well as a bit of the front lip. None of it is really necessary for the Leaf motor, but is for the Honda subframe. I'm also hoping to use the _huge_ Leaf motor mounts (in the front) if I can, and they extend way out from the motor.

If I had to do it over again, I would have put more effort into the factory subframe before buying aftermarket. My thought was that the tubing would be easier to modify than the wavy stock subframe, but I'm not sure that's true. I also would not have had to cut any of the body or mess with the brake line with the factory subframe. For some reason I have a thing about modifying OEM stuff as if they're sacred. I'm getting over it. Not to mention the fact that the MCM subframe costed me $2k and 2 months...

One of the brake lines is about a 1/2" too short...It's possible I could have torqued the subframe up and bent it into place, but it made me nervous enough to detach it...I'm not quite sure what to do about that. I can either roll a new brake line all the way from the back of the car, or put it in front of the crossmember, requiring the brake line to be detached every time the subframe is lowered. I guess that's rare, but it seems like a bummer to also have to bleed the brakes every time. Thinking again, the worst case scenario is that I'll break/crimp a line that I'd have to replace anyway, sooo...Might just give that another whirl.

I have 1.25" OD 12AWG chromoly tubing and 1/4" cold rolled steel plating, so now I just gotta fab up the mounts...EASY-PEASY.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

KiwiPete said:


> Progress is looking good. I'm excited to see this coming together.


Thanks! Yesterday was a bit of a why-am-I-doing-this moment, but I don't think this is really the week to stall out on at-home projects!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Moootor mounts! I've got the right side mount fabbed and tacked, and now I'm on to the rear and left.

I wanted to use the Nissan mounts, but the Honda subframe spars blocked them from fitting...I would either need to cut/weld the spars, or just use a simpler mount. I'm gonna give these a whirl and see how they do.

To cut the tubing, I used the ever-nifty MetalGeek templates...You print and cut them at 100% scale, and then use them to mark what part of the tube should be cut to mate up.

http://metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi

Once I had things more or less attached, I bolted the Nissan arm to the mount plate, and then drilled another hole for a second bolt to prevent movement. I would have just welded the parts up, but I don't have any aluminum!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, I botched the rear mount. Now I gotta get the thing all positioned again so I can redo it. Kind of a pain, but not a show-stopper. Measure twice and all that...It needs to be about a half-inch lower to avoid hitting the steering rack. Really thought I had that sorted.

I hope to get the motor in this week, then on to axles, brakes, and actually making wheels spin on command...


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Good progress, looks good.

Cheers
Tyler


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I got the motor mounts fabbed and subframe installed (I think)...Hopefully for the last time until it's on the road and legal. The subframe seems to lean back about 5° or so...I had assumed it was supposed to be level. I can't imagine it'll mess with anything, but...good to know.


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Progress is looking great! I'm jealous of how little (read none) rust you have.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The motor is in! It had to go in from the bottom...It just wouldn't fit from the top.

I won't know for sure until it's on the road, but it's pretty damn level, pretty damn square, and pretty damn centered (in terms of axle output). There's even space for coolant lines, which I was worried about.

I wish I had given greater consideration to installing the motor with the subframe in place. It wasn't too crazy to fit, but it involved more levering and maneuvering than I'd like, and it wouldn't have taken too much effort to improve. Having a crane was very handy, though a transmission jack would have been handier...Maybe I should have installed everything into the subframe and installed the whole thing, but that seems like a much bigger operation anyway.

All of the bolts are accessible without too much hassle, although I could not get the middle bolt of the three on the right side motor mount in (the subframe blocks the hole, and the motor can't be installed with that mount arm attached). I assumed I'd be dropping it in from the top without measuring engine bay clearance!

I shouldn't have bothered with the OEM mount arm on the right. It's just too big. Shoulda just made a steel plate like the others.

Now it's on to reinstalling the suspension, measuring to have axles made, figuring out what to do about brake lines and the inverter hitting the booster, and getting this thing to spin on command!
































































There is a clearance issue I hadn't anticipated...The rear motor mount plate that bolts to the motor is touching/chafing the body a bit. I'm okay driving on it until the car is legal, but it does defeat the purpose of all the rubber motor mounts! My problem is solved by cutting/grinding away the top 1/4", but it could have been a lot worse if the motor had been even slightly further back.










I also had to chamfer the outer tower edges a bit, as they were digging into the body a smidgen near the shock top mount. No biggie, I did it in place.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The inverter doesn't fit. Not a shocker. I see two options:

1) Put it in sideways, fab a bracket so it bolts up.

2) Put it behind the front seats.

If I put it in the rear, it means I can put some batteries up front, which should help keep the weight distribution biased towards the front (the batteries are more dense than the inverter). The down side is plumbing coolant lines into the cabin and more heavy wiring.

I'm gonna mull and get the suspension and brakes together (which might take quite a while). Then I can weigh the car and see where it stands.


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Be wary of locating the inverter too far away - the encoder is really susceptible to noise and should be as short as possible (real world experience of this)

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Interesting...What's an encoder? I thought all the magic happened between the inverter and controller, and the inverter just pumped out power on those three big cables, such that the only concern would be heat and voltage drop...


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Tremelune said:


> Interesting...What's an encoder? I thought all the magic happened between the inverter and controller, and the inverter just pumped out power on those three big cables, such that the only concern would be heat and voltage drop...


The rpm/position sensor in the motor bearing. There is also a few temperature lines in there. Its the harness that runs between the PDM, inverter, motor and back to the bulkhead.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Ah, I see—the CAN stuff. I'm hoping that using CAT5 (or even real twisted CAN wiring) will give me a few meters without too much noise.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The suspension is back in! I had to buy new lower arms to fit the McGee subframe. The rest is still using the janky rubber and worn-out joints I pulled off the car. It feels icky putting them back, but I'm certain they'll have to come off again in the near future, so I figured I'd get the car driving and corner-weighed before I bought more shiny stuff.

I had to grind away a bit of the Leaf flange to get the joints out (even though I won't be using them).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

AXLES!

I'm sourcing custom axles from The Driveshaft Shop, and there are some surprises.

The first is where to measure from...The "normal" output is measured from the tip of the rubber seal for some reason. The output with the intermediate shaft is measured from the inside of the bearing race...I was measuring from the outside.

As a result, I believe my motor is about 1/2" too centered. I'm also not certain that my measurements equate directly to shaft lengths...I'm hoping that the the in/out travel of the CV joints, combined with the limited suspension travel of the Mini, will still allow me to use shafts of equal length, but I dunno. I measure 18" and 17" with the axles parallel to the ground. I measure 17.5" and 16.5" at full droop. I'll know more once I get the axles, but that might be a weeks.



















The Mini side was measured with the spacers in the hub pushed as far inward as they'd go.










The second surprise is that they don't just fab an axle and ship it. They modify the existing Leaf bits and send complete axle assemblies (they seem to have their own shafts that work with classic Mini hubs as well). So, I'm gonna send them my Leaf flanges and get back a complete assembly (hopefully)!










Cost is about a grand. I feel better about it than trying to sleeve/lathe/drill the Mini and Leaf axles. I don't have that skill, and whoever does in LA will charge hundreds anyway...Mini axles tend to snap along the circlip ring near the wheels with much torque...and the Leaf will put 2-3x the torque to the axles vs the stock motor (and this is at a dead-stop). At least I think I ran these numbers right...Comparison to the most monstrous Honda B swap:

*Mini MPI:* (70tq) * (3.44 1st) * (3 final drive) = *660-720*tq to axles
*Honda B:* (140tq) * (3.23 1st) * (4.4 final drive) = *1900*tq to axles
*Honda B:* (140tq) * (2.1 2nd) * (4.4 final drive) = *1295*tq to axles
*Leaf:* (210tq) * (7.91 final drive) = *1,660*tq to axles

On to getting the motor to spin with a throttle!


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

That's some great info on driveshafts. I should have some outlander driveshafts coming soon and I've managed to find someone who can machine and weld them for the mini.
I may only use them as a mockup and look into the costs of proper shafts. 
As you stated minis aren't used to this amount of torque from a standstill.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> ...Mini axles tend to snap along the circlip ring near the wheels with much torque...and the Leaf will put 2-3x the torque to the axles vs the stock motor (and this is at a dead-stop). At least I think I ran these numbers right...Comparison to the most monstrous Honda B swap:
> 
> *Mini MPI:* (70tq) * (3.44 1st) * (3 final drive) = *660-720*tq to axles
> *Honda B:* (140tq) * (3.23 1st) * (4.4 final drive) = *1900*tq to axles
> ...


I didn't check the multiplication or the transaxle specs, but the logic looks right and the end values are not surprising.

Although "monstrous" for a Mini, the Honda specs are ordinary for compact cars. This confirms that EVs are not magically acceleration beasts compared to ordinary gasoline engined cars (especially considering their high mass)... if the gas car is actually shifted for best performance.

It's too bad that someone decided that "torques" is a unit of torque measurement - it's not. Torque is a type of physical quantity, like speed or power or temperature. As with any quantity, there are many possible units of measure; these values are presumably in pound-feet (lb-ft or ft-lb).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Oh, ha—yeah. I just use *tq* because I don't like typing or looking at *ft-lb*. These were copy/pasted from my notes.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Tremelune said:


> AXLES!
> 
> ..Mini axles tend to snap along the circlip ring near the wheels with much torque...and the Leaf will put 2-3x the torque to the axles vs the stock motor (and this is at a dead-stop). At least I think I ran these numbers right...Comparison to the most monstrous Honda B swap:


I call bullshit on the mini axles snapping - there are lots of things in that drivetrain that are weak - but the axles are NOT one of them

I would also say that you don't need to worry about extra loads on the axles as you are limited by the amount of grip that you can get from the tyres

ESPECIALLY if you stick to mini suspension geometry!!

Even with racing slicks the amount of grip is simply not that great


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I concede, but some Brits disagree:

http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/topic/346895-drive-shaft-removal/

I think it's more about slippery surfaces changing quickly to a sticky surface at full throttle, as opposed to motor torque dragging the car forward from a stoplight...

If I could lathe, sleeve, weld, and balance them myself, I wouldn't think twice about using the Leaf and Mini shafts.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Weight distribution sanity check! I was thinking about where to put the inverter, and I was afraid I was way ass-heavy, so I put the wheels back on and put it on the scale. The car had seats, the inverter in the engine bay, no axles, no brake calipers.

Stock (with empty gas tank):
494 509
298 276
Total 1,577 (64%/36%)

As it sits:
360 440
390 330
Total: 1500 (53%/47%)

With two 150-pound passengers, the distribution stays the same.










I'm pleased. I was aiming for a "worst case" of 50/50, erring on the side of more weight up front. It seems that weight hasn't shifted too much. If I add the full pack to the rear, I'd be moving things back around 2-3%, and that's with the batteries just sitting on the rear seat instead of on the floor forward. There is also some space in the engine bay for a small pack or two of batteries.

It seems like I'm in a good spot with some options for shifting things around without too much hassle. I still plan to put in AC equipment, as well as a hood, radiator, pump, coolant, etc, so this means I don't have to run coolant into the interior, which is nice. No sealed battery boxes...I'm just gonna fab up some mounts for the inverter, and then wire it in with a throttle...

Better power-to-weight than a Mustang GT...if I can get it to the ground...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Go pedal's in! I was planning to use the stock pedal with a cable-operated box, but my research showed that potentiometers were short-lived and unreliable and lever-operated Hall Effect boxes were...expensive. Cable operation seemed more complicated than it was worth.

So, I grabbed the Leaf pedal and fabbed up a janky "pedestal" for it using 1/8" angle-iron and the stock mounting bolts. I just eyeballed it in place, using a photo of the stock setup as a guide. I got it in a good spot the second time around.

Those stock mounting bolts were way too weak for the new leverage on the pedal, so I also added a triangulation "spar" to the floor...I might bolt it down, but I'm gonna give it a try first.


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## Uglyduck71 (Feb 1, 2019)

Good work fella!
I've just finished reading your entire thread and while I have no advice for you I'll play cheerleader for a minute. Reading your posts from day one, when you started out with minimal knowledge through to today is both inspirational and a massive wealth of information. You are showing the rest of us that sh1t just gets done when you keep trying and your'e open to friendly outside input.
My first job after graduation was at Rover and I was based at the Longbridge assembly plant in Birmingham (UK) and I used to be on and off the track as part of my training (used to love watching those cuties get built up), that was in '95, maybe your car is not of the same vintage and I procured the springs and shock absorbers for it (my job at the time).
I CAN'T WAIT to see that first video of the car moving and without the transmission whine of the original! Keep up the posts (I'm motivated by your conscientious sharing to do the same), and good luck with the rest of the build. You are doing great things and your work is making things happen five thousand miles away.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Hey thanks! I'm just winging it, and information wants to be free...I've learned a lot from researching and doing, and hopefully my trials and tribulations helps others doing the same thing.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I got the inverter mounted...It fits wonderfully, with some caveats...

It's a simple square bracket of square tubing, but it was a real pain to fab up 'cause it kept moving around. I couldn't figure out how to make a template with any precision, so I just went with trial and error...In the end I had to get everything positioned in the engine bay and tack it up. It was awkward and it shows.

The height is necessary for the inverter to clear the motor, as the "dip" in the inverter no longer matches up with the trough in the motor...I used 2" square tubing, and it worked fine, but it does contact the "loop" that's on the motor. I think 2.125" would have been perfect.

The big caveat is that I forgot about the wiring harness...it's now blocked by the crossmember on the subframe, so I'm gonna have to notch it out. I don't love it, but I'm not too concerned, considering the stock subframe doesn't have much of a crossmember. Worst case, I can reinforce it...I doubt it'll matter considering the way the towers bolted in.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

A lovely surprise...The harness connector for the inverter is super low-profile. It normally has its own plastic cover. The connector is well-sealed, so I'm inclined to spray it with Fluid Film and leave it as-is.

I pulled the inverter-to-motor wiring from the harness, and they're long enough to fit as they are!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Next up is wiring in the inverter 12v power, ground, and CAN wiring, as well as the throttle. I'm not certain, but it seems the Leaf throttle is a standard Dual Hall sucker...The Thunderstruck controller wants 0-5v, and it seems to want the voltages from the two throttle wipers to be similar...Hopefully this will work (even if I only use one wiper). Fingers crossed...

I pulled these specs from page 217 of the "EVC" section of the factory Leaf manual:


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I got the throttle wired up. I had to dig way deep in the Leaf manual to find connectors E101 and E61 to figure out the wire colors! Turns out white is power, black is ground, and each red is a wiper. The Thunderstruck VCU allows for any voltage "wipe range" for each wiper. I still had trouble with them being in sync, so I'm only using one (for now?). It's likely that the Leaf doesn't just send 5v/gnd for the power wires, but it's workin'!

Random plug: All of the Thunderstruck stuff I'm using has _excellent_ documentation, and a useful terminal for configuration and monitoring. The proof will come on the road, but I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. Fingers crossed that they're working on controlling other Leaf components...

It's time to wire up the motor and see if I can get it to spin properly. I have two dozen feet of 2/0 AWG high-voltage cable coming from EV West. I thought about welding cable for half price, but I just felt better about the extra insulation and durability of the orange stuff. Maybe it's a myth.

I "fabbed" up some copper pins by repurposing the Leaf busbars. I just flattened 'em in a vice, cut them into strips that seemed like they had an advantageous shape, and drilled holes in 'em. It's a bit hidden and awkward under the inverter, but there's room to get my hands and a wrench under there, so it should work. My plan is to just...put a big shrink wrap tube over the connection, bolt and all. I can't think of anything better.

I also can't think of a better way to seal the connection that used to join the motor to the inverter. I just stuffed it with butyl tape...It should keep out anything unless it gets submerged...


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

What are you using for BMS? Sorry if I missed that info.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I went with the Thunderstruck BMS and some satellites. I've heard new chatter about stuff coming out that might be able to repurpose the way cheaper Leaf BMS, but I'm not aware of a purchasable product or open-source software yet.

The Thunderstruck stuff was cheaper than Orion, and integrated well with my charge controller (which is also Thunderstruck).


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## Tom Mills (Apr 25, 2018)

You are an inspiration! You have done great work here. Thank you, and thx for sharing..


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> I went with the Thunderstruck BMS and some satellites. I've heard new chatter about stuff coming out that might be able to repurpose the way cheaper Leaf BMS, but I'm not aware of a purchasable product or open-source software yet.
> 
> The Thunderstruck stuff was cheaper than Orion, and integrated well with my charge controller (which is also Thunderstruck).


Thanks. So that's $450 for the BMS and (3) x $275 for the satellites for the full Leaf battery. It is frustrating not to use the existing Leaf components. Are you using the Thunderstruck EV Display? I'm debating between buying a full Leaf and stripping it or just buying the individual components.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Tom Mills said:


> You are an inspiration! You have done great work here. Thank you, and thx for sharing..


Well thanks! I wouldn't have even attempted if it weren't for all the info others shared about their builds.

Hopefully I'll wind up with a good vehicle at the end of all this...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

gotham said:


> Thanks. So that's $450 for the BMS and (3) x $275 for the satellites for the full Leaf battery. It is frustrating not to use the existing Leaf components. Are you using the Thunderstruck EV Display? I'm debating between buying a full Leaf and stripping it or just buying the individual components.


It is painful for sure. OEM components are very high quality and comparatively super cheap...This just need to be cracked, and that work hasn't been done yet (or shared publicly, I guess). I (still) have a fear of not completing, so I wanted to minimize how long this project went on...

I am using the Thunderstruck display, though I didn't do much research into displays in general. I just went with something that seemed easy to integrate. I plan to hide it in the glovebox, and use the analog out for the stock fuel gauge.

I highly recommend buying the whole Leaf, even though it's a pain in the ass to strip, and recouping costs by selling the other components is...tedious. You get a bunch of stuff that you didn't even think about, like connectors, contactors, fuses, relays, miles of wire in every color, water pump, service disconnect, etc...and maybe by the time you get the motor installed, someone will have figured out the BMS or charger or HVAC or something...

The tricky bit is that most of the smart/expensive components operate on a proprietary CAN protocol, so to transplant the whole car means you really have to get everything right, or _none_ of it will work without buying more stuff or building a box that speaks the right CAN messages.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I've got the inverter/motor wiring completish. I used 2/0 gauge wire from EV West. It appears to be Trystar welding cable in the color orange. A bit disappointing (for the cost, compared to standard welding cable). Maybe the insulation is more substantial, but I have no welding cable to compare it to. I _think_ the factory Leaf wiring is 1/0 (based on its thickness and the 225A main fuse), but I went with 2/0 to be safe.

It's very awkward to work (and photograph) between the motor and the inverter, but not impossible. I was hoping to bolt the lugs directly to the motor internals, but they didn't fit, so I needed to keep the copper pins. There is maybe a quarter inch of clearance between them, so I doubt they'll contact one another even while driving. They really don't move much.

It's not fully insulated yet, and I'm not sure of the best way to do it. Current plan is to put a slit in some shrink wrap tubing, bolt the wires together when it's in place, then heat it (the assumption being I'd need to do this every time I disconnected them). I might be able to go with very large shrink-wrap tubing, and bend it 90°. Dunno if that's any better.


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

Looks good. I always end up getting wire that is too big and struggling to work with it. This type of tape may also be an option for insulating those splices: https://www.mcmaster.com/76455A72


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Cooling components are in place, pulled from Prius inverter cooling loops, and I'm quite pleased with the fit.

*The radiator* is an aftermarket part (from TYC) that fits a 2010-2015. The OEM parts I found were usually damaged for the same money, and the TYC seems well built.

I attached the left side by bending the inner fender wing (that I cut out a bunch to fit the subframe) so that it was flush, then drilled two holes to match the the holes on the radiator. Didn't take much. For the right side, I fabbed a little bracket up with some angle iron and drilled two holes for bolts. There is plenty of clearance from the front grill.

Tight fit, but there's about a quarter inch all around.




























*The pump* is from a 2004-2009 Prius, and is a simple 12V, 2A pump. It came with rubber grommets that I figured I'd keep (presumably to isolate its noise/vibration). I fabbed up another little bracket for it and bolted it to the motor via two opportune bolt holes no longer in use...I'm told the pump likes to be low in the system to prevent air bubbles from getting trapped.



















*The tank* is from a 2010-2015 Prius again. I made a little arm to support its weight on one side, and I have it crammed against the body to support the rest. I glued a piece of closed-cell foam I had lying around in an effort to prevent damage and noise. I made sure it was the highest point in the system in the hopes that any air bubbles would circulate and escape here. Ah, also makes it possible to fill the system, sooo...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

HV wiring is complete. I kinda half-assed the interior, as I'm not sure what the final battery setup will be. I kept the + and - wires separated from one another, but I'm not sure there's value in it. I see plenty of OEM EVs with the high voltage wire just bundled together.

I used some thick high-voltage tape for the interverter connections, but it was too hard to get it on underneath where the motor is connected. Not sure What to do about that. Maybe back to my cut-shrink-wrap idea? It's well out of the way, so I'm punting, but corrosion protection matters.

The motor spins! The brakes brake! Finishing up the cooling system, tying up some loose ends, and waiting for those axles...


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

Looks like you're getting close!


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## Scanales (Apr 13, 2020)

NICE! Almost there!

Any thoughts on the final Battery location/setup? 

Only one main pack? Or will you distribute the total capacity along different locations.

Cheers


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm gonna see what the real-world range is like. If it's good enough for me, I'll leave the current configuration, but maybe put them all on the floor eventually.

Depending on what I used for DC-DC, I may need to add 6 more modules to get the voltage high enough to work with the Volt DC-DC (which is the cheapest that would put out enough juice for me, and is easily integrated with Thunderstruck stuff).

There is a bit of room in the engine bay for more batteries, but I don't want to mess with that until I have AC and DC-DC working. I could also put a bunch in the trunk, but I want to see what the final-final weight distribution looks like before putting weight back there.

Building battery boxes and running HV wiring everywhere is non-trivial...There's also the fact that the longer I wait, the cheaper batteries get, and the more they improve...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The cooling system is flowin'! The Prius pump is strong, nearly silent, and only has one moving part. The system purged itself of air bubbles rather swiftly.

I ditched the 3/4" ID tubing, as it was kinking too much in front of the motor, and in the end was unecessarily large—I managed to get 5/8" ID tubing over the Leaf ports with a heat gun and some soapy water as lubricant.

I used PEX elbows to avoid any tight bends (3/4", but PEX uses a different sizing system), but they may not have been necessary after downsizing the tubes. They seem to be as good as steel and as cheap as plastic. The tubing might be too loose on them without clamps, but I'm gonna give it a whirl.

There was very little room on the left, so I wound up just stuffing the two tubes from the motor through an opening and wrapping them with more tubing as protection. My plan is to just keep an eye on things to see if the protection falls out, or gets damaged too quickly, or what. Getting tubes to the motor was very annoying, and it seemed like any useful cutting of the body would be visible.

I didn't have the Prius water pump connector, so I just filled the sucker with Fluid Film to prevent moisture from shorting anything out...I don't love it, but I'll wait and see before trying to find a connector.

At this point, I'm kinda just waiting on the axles before doing much more. Road tests will surely adjust my priorities and unearth some design failures.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I used PEX elbows to avoid any tight bends (3/4", but PEX uses a different sizing system), but they may not have been necessary after downsizing the tubes. They seem to be as good as steel and as cheap as plastic. The tubing might be too loose on them without clamps, but I'm gonna give it a whirl.


I definitely wouldn't trust PEX barbs with soft hose of any size without clamps. Even with PEX clamp rings are needed. With clamps, they should be fine, as long as the tubing inside diameter (before stretching) is smaller than the barb outer diameter.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

Have you seen this?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

"Costwise, it could be anything. Timewise, it could be anything."


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

pickmeup said:


> Have you seen this?


No, but it's 26 minutes long and starts with a guy drinking coffee... so I'm going to take a wild guess that it's not worth watching. If there's something in it of value, why not tell us what that is?


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

brian_ said:


> No, but it's 26 minutes long and starts with a guy drinking coffee... so I'm going to take a wild guess that it's not worth watching. If there's something in it of value, why not tell us what that is?


hes using a leaf motor and batteries, its worth letting tremulene know as they are asking for feedback on the conversion, it seems strange he doenst seem to know of the great work that ESDI has done on already converting a mini with a leaf drivetrain.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

pickmeup said:


> hes using a leaf motor and batteries, its worth letting tremulene know as they are asking for feedback on the conversion, it seems strange he doenst seem to know of the great work that ESDI has done on already converting a mini with a leaf drivetrain.


 Thanks.

If there is anything specific from this build which is interesting or useful, I assume that someone will add it to the discussion.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Axles, axles, axles!

It seems they were worth the wait (and $1400 price tag). These things are works of art, and fit perfectly with clearance everywhere. They machined the Nissan stubs to their own CVs and hub shafts. Beefy. Smooth rotation at all but full droop with the car in the air. With the car on the ground, they're pretty level, and the angle toward the rear is quite slight.

The shafts are equal lengths (though the boots make it look otherwise). It seems that the way I measured was optimal (or at least allowed the shafts to be equal in length within the in/out tolerance). Specifically, to position the motor in the subframe, I measured from the gearbox face on both sides (without the bracket that locks them in), which is distinct from how The Driveshaft Shop wanted me to measure for _their_ purposes.

There is no torque-steer to speak of. I am pleased. My compliments to The Driveshaft Shop.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

*The Inaugural Flight*

Brilliant. The car is brilliant. It's still a rat's nest of wiring, but it is a blast to drive. I currently have torque limited to 75%, and while it's not _fast_ per se, it certainly isn't slow. I got to maybe 8,000rpm for a bit (just shy of 60mph), but not for long enough to get a real feel. Most of the driving was spent puttering around tight neighborhood streets at low speeds to see if any bugs came from all the shaking. There are some things I need to investigate, but overall it went smoothly!

I wound up installing Thunderstruck's CAN Translator, which basically sends Leaf VCU CAN messages off to the OBD-II port. This allows an app (such as OBD Fusion for the iPhone) to get information with regard to motor/inverter temp, RPM, current draw, etc. I haven't gotten things quite sorted yet, but for a rudimentary dashboard it is working well.

With ambient temperatures at 80°F and sunny, the inverter never went above 120°F. It spends most of its time around 95-100°F. At full throttle it spikes a bit, then settles back to 100°F almost immediately after power is reduced. The coolant tubes felt slightly warm to the touch after a drive. I couldn't get the motor temp 'cause something isn't right with my CAN Translator setup, but I'm workin' on it.

The batteries barely increased in temperature throughout the driving. They didn't even feel warm. I don't have a handy battery temp display, so I just reached back and put my hand on some module casings to check.

At 75% torque (~150ftlb), it'll spin the tires...The tires on there are old, hard, and cracked, though, so we'll see what happens with a fresh set. There's a strange phenomenon with regard to wheelspin...It seems like power is being intentionally limited until about 10mph, when the wheels start to spin. I'm not sure if it's Nissan or Thunderstruck, but it's curious. It feels like a "spare the drivetrain" measure, which I don't mind, but it'd be nice to have full torque at 0mph as long as nothing would snap!

Turning radius is unimpeded, and it still goes around corners like the legend it is. There is still a whole lot of work to do to make it reliable and nice, but boy...I'm happy with the way it drives just how it is. Well chuffed.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

this is fantastic news! i cant wait to see some onbarod and drive by footage of it in action!


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## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Awesome! well done

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> The shafts are equal lengths (though the boots make it look otherwise).


So is the inboard boot on the left shaft (shown on top) compressed too much, or is the inboard boot on the right shaft (shown on the bottom) extended too much? Are the clamps on machined grooves in the shaft, or can you just release the clamps and correct the boots? It seems like a small detail, but the only thing that typically goes wrong with modern CV joints is that damaged boots allow dirt in which destroys the joints; protect them and they last forever... and a stretched or compressed boot is more likely to fail.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> There is no torque-steer to speak of. I am pleased.


Way to bury the news of the first drive 
Congratulations!



Tremelune said:


> I got to maybe 8,000rpm for a bit (just shy of 60mph)...


So top speed is at least 79 mph (127 km/h) - lower than the Leaf due to the smaller tires, but would still be enough for me. Of course, lower top speed means more low-speed acceleration...



Tremelune said:


> At 75% torque (~150ftlb), it'll spin the tires...The tires on there are old, hard, and cracked, though, so we'll see what happens with a fresh set. There's a strange phenomenon with regard to wheelspin...It seems like power is being intentionally limited until about 10mph, when the wheels start to spin. I'm not sure if it's Nissan or Thunderstruck, but it's curious. It feels like a "spare the drivetrain" measure, which I don't mind, but it'd be nice to have full torque at 0mph as long as nothing would snap!


To avoid shock, the system should limit the rate of increase of current (regardless of road speed), not limit the current to fixed ceiling only at low speed. I think this is about smoothing out jerky drivers rather than saving mechanical parts from shock. Many drivers would spin the tires on every start on a wet or icy road without this sort of tweak.

Whether the intent is to spare the mechanicals from shock, or the smooth the driving (and passenger) experience, I assume that this is deliberate, and in the Nissan code.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks!

_brian, you are correct...about several things:

1) I'm leaking coolant from the PEX fittings. When the coolant goes over 100°F, the tubing starts to get soft and drip from where it exits the motor. I'm gonna clamp 'em. I'm running tap water at the moment, so no biggie. The motor has been staying around 110°F, and sometimes gets near 120°F under load. I'm not sure what to expect when the car is parked in the hot sun and then gets floored...Worst case, I'll ditch my fancy clear hoses, but I like them! My "overheat" temp is somewhat arbitrary, cobbled together from Internet research...I've seen 160°F and I've seen 200°F as inverter maximums, so I dunno. My hoses are specced to 150°F...

2) The CV boot appears to be stretched on the left inner joint. I got some good video of it in the link below. I think it's just a question of scootching the boot seal closer in, but if I have to get a new clamp (and tool) I will. I really don't want to have to replace CVs on a custom set of axles...As far as I can tell, the axles are working well. No noises even at full lock, and driving angles look mild.

3) I think 75-80mph will wind up being the top speed. Right now I'm using GPS for a speedometer and it's kinda flaky. As long as I can go on the highway safely, I'm happy. This is a city car for sure. 60mph was a guesstimate based off the calculated top speed and measured motor RPM. 😁

Other known issues:

- The rear motor mount plate makes contact with the body, and it's scraping paint a bit. When I pull the subframe, I'll have to grind a bunch off. No biggie (once it's out of course)!

- Something is popping or clicking when going from hard deceleration to hard acceleration and vice versa. I'm hoping it's the issue above, but I kinda doubt it. I'm gonna stick a camera down there and see if I can reproduce it consistently and see if there's anything visual that matches up with the sound.

- Range is limited by my 12v battery...I haven't driven far enough to understand the range yet, but without DC-DC, my driving time is however long it takes for the electronics and coolant pump to draw the battery below 12v...Luckily, this Mini came with a _giant_ battery, so I'm just gonna use that until I know the weak link.

I don't have much for video at the moment, but there's this (oof, I don't like embedded links):

__
http://instagr.am/p/CCfGiEoH2XV/


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## schelle63 (Jan 3, 2018)

You made it.
CONGRATULATIONS!


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

DC/DC is in the works. I bought a used Delphi 2.2kW liquid-cooled monster, in anticipation of very-heated seats, a rather silly stereo, and too much forward lighting...It's still comparable in price to other options, and it'll be easy to plumb coolant with where I'll mount it, so whatevs. It's CAN-powered, so I need some kind of 12v battery in the system...I opted for this little dude:










I had a thought, though. What if I turn the ignition on, and all the heated seats and stereo is on full, and I try and pull 60A from this little thing before the DC/DC converter is delivering power? Will it overheat and explode?

I'm trying to think of a way to wire it such that it'll power the actual ignition and DC/DC controller, but not the rest of the 12v system. The tricky bit is doing this while also allowing the DC/DC to always give it 13.8V when driving. I must mull.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Some niggles are cropping up after 50-100mi of driving:

- Front right motor mounts are contacting the subframe, so I'll have to notch that a bit.

- The gearbox scraped the ground at some point. Not much I can do until I install new springs/cones and adjust the ride height. The tie bar mounts are a bit lower than the gearbox, but out to the sides.

- Some relay sometimes squeaks or crackles when power is removed. No idea what that's about. (Edit: It's the special 5v relay, though I don't know why it squeaks.)

- The front tires will fowl on the body when turning (very) tight downhill...Another "until the springs" issue.

- Despite rotating smoothly from lock-to-lock, the axles were too short by like an inch. It's not clear if I mis-measured or was mis-informed, but new shafts are on their way. I started hearing some pops and squeaks when going from deceleration to acceleration, but it could still be the metal-to-metal contact where my motor mounts aren't clearanced right.

- Upping the power to 100% solved the weird throttle-delay-from-a-stop issue. Thunderstruck says setting maxtorque to 1300Nm gets the most out of the motor that they've seen, so I did that as well. I made sure my min and max throttle voltages were slightly inside the physical movement of the pedal (to ensure I was getting actual full and zero throttle).

- The tires spin readily from stop. These tires are old and cracked, so I reserve judgement for after there are fresh shoes...It seems like 55-60% weight up front would be better than 50-55%. Either way, this is a problem I'm happy to have. Torque steer exists, but remains negligible. We'll see what the new tires bring. When I get around to enclosing the batteries, they'll sit a foot further forward, which should help. If I add more batteries...maybe not.

The concept is proved, at least: It's easy to park and fun to drive. I still can't believe the thing more or less worked out of the box...I wonder what deeper issues lurk for the future...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

schelle63 said:


> You made it.
> CONGRATULATIONS!


Thanks! The biggest phase is complete. There's still a lot to do, but I now have the confidence to make changes knowing that the end result is in line with what I was hoping for!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> ... I need some kind of 12v battery in the system...I opted for this little dude
> ...
> I had a thought, though. What if I turn the ignition on, and all the heated seats and stereo is on full, and I try and pull 60A from this little thing before the DC/DC converter is delivering power? Will it overheat and explode?
> 
> I'm trying to think of a way to wire it such that it'll power the actual ignition and DC/DC controller, but not the rest of the 12v system. The tricky bit is doing this while also allowing the DC/DC to always give it 13.8V when driving. I must mull.


That's cute.  Some cordless tools have bigger batteries.
AGM batteries are usually good for relatively high current, but 40 C might be a bit much.

The traditional ignition switch configuration has an "accessory" position before "ignition", and you're looking for essentially the reverse... which wouldn't work in a straightforward way because you don't want to be able drive (on the first position) without everything (especially lights, wipers, etc) functional if you forgot to turn the switch the rest of the way. How about a time-delayed relay for the accessories which comes on a few seconds (whatever the DC-DC needs to start up) after the "ignition" switch is turned on?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I like the timed relay idea...I started getting crazy with isolated circuits and realized I was being perhaps a bit over-protective...I think I found a reasonable solution by placing a relay between the aux components (dumb shit I'll add in the future), and the rest of the car. This way the unimportant heavy-hitters will never be able to draw from the battery directly, and will only power on with the DC/DC converter.

It still suffers from some factory heavy-hitters, such as turning off the car while my headlights and rear defrost are on, but...that just doesn't seem all that likely. I figure I'll put the 12V battery behind a 30A fuse, and worst case, it keeps blowing until I realize what's going on...I'm gonna wait for an actual problem before I start pulling apart the factory circuits.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> ...I think I found a reasonable solution by placing a relay between the aux components (dumb shit I'll add in the future), and the rest of the car. This way the unimportant heavy-hitters will never be able to draw from the battery directly, and will only power on with the DC/DC converter.
> 
> ...


Right, but once that relay closes (when the DC-DC provides power) it will stay on (maintained by the 12 V battery) even after the DC-DC goes off. You could put an isolation diode between the DC-DC output and the aux fusebox, powering the relay coil from the DC-DC side of the diode (so it would no longer get power when the DC-DC is turned off) but that would mean a diode-drop voltage loss for all DC-DC output (which you could adjust for to get the desired voltage downstream of the diode, but it would still waste power).


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Ah schnikeys! Nice catch.

I think this suggests that maybe a small powersports battery would be a better way to go. This complexity doesn't seem worth saving 5-10 pounds.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

DC/DC is in and running! I went with a 2.2kW Delphi that puts out 175A at 12.5V. Way overkill for my needs, but it works with my "empty" pack of 216V, was trivial to plumb for coolant, and the Volt converter was proving hard to find...Wiring was real easy, too: ignition, CAN (to Thunderstruck's CAN Translator), and power/ground.

I modified the left motor mounts to support a powersports-sized battery I had lying around...It's a pretty weak AGM battery, but it doesn't really need to do much anymore...I put it behind a 30A fuse...If it blows regularly, I'll set up some kind of contactor/solonoid/relay to separate it from the higher-draw stuff in the system...or maybe I'll just let it deal with the load until it can't...I just don't think it'll be a problem, and I don't want to go through the hassle yet. I strapped it in with tie-down. It ain't movin' much.

The converter is attached with two bolts to some janky little 1/8" brackets I fabbed up, bolted to the inverter. I was attempting to put more weight towards the front left. I was afraid it might wobble, but even with just two bolts in the center, it is _rigid_.

It's working well, and now my range isn't limited by my 12V battery and the headlights are actually useful! Next big thing is gonna be installing a relay/fusebox and cleaning up the rats nest of wires I created...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Random anecdotal data:

One of the coolant hoses popped off while I was driving around, and I didn't notice until I was home. Temps never really spiked, and I wasn't being particularly gentle. Maybe I was getting bad readings from the sensors with no liquid in there, but I dunno. Everything ran fine...Hopefully I didn't fry anything!

These things just don't seem to produce much heat, though I'll have a much better idea when I test out higher sustained speeds. I keep forgetting that a full throttle burst isn't as much of a strain to the electronics as five minutes on the highway.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Random axle notes: As I was standing underneath the car, it occurred to me that a much better way to measure lateral positioning of the motor is with the Leaf axle stubs _in_. It's a shorter distance from the subframe that way, and the measuring "surfaces" are identical on both sides. For the anyone else who's doing a Leaf-in-Mini, I guess...


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

Wow!
What a read, it's taken a while to catch up but the work you've done is going to save many people, including me a LOT of time and money.
Thank you so much.
Out of curiousity why didn't you weld the mini shafts to the leaf shafts at the correct length then send them off to be copied?
I can't wait to find out your range and how you finalise your battery packs.

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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

scottherrington said:


> Out of curiousity why didn't you weld the mini shafts to the leaf shafts at the correct length then send them off to be copied?


Intimidation, perhaps. I lack the talent and tools to accurately machine a Leaf axle so that a Mini axle will slide into it. The idea of just kind of welding them end-to-end for the purpose of measurement simply never occurred to me!

Another bit is that I literally don't know how long axles are supposed to be. They need lateral play to work with the moving suspension, but how much? I can surmise that getting the inner tripod joints in the "middle" of the stub is the goal, but I never really got that far. From full droop to standard ride height, the Mini doesn't have much of a length change with the Leaf motor in here. In the end, I just did what The Drvieshaft Shop told me to.

The first shafts I got were 13.5" and they measured an inch too short based on their criteria. I swapped them for 14.5" shafts, and these seem too long...maybe by an inch. I can't explain the discrepancy, but there is at least some play in these, whereas the 13.5" shafts seemed pulled tight, always. Either the Mini is unique, the Mini/Leaf combo is unique, they're telling me how to measure incorrectly, or I'm just measuring incorrectly. I dunno! These measurements might not translate to any other shafts besides the one they make. They work well now with no weird noises, so I'm inclined not to mess with anything unless a problem presents itself.

With regard to range, I'm getting 6-8mi/kWh (~60-80mi in reality), but average speed is something like 20-30mph. Low speeds, but lots of full-throttle and steep hills and what not. It might very well be half that at 75mph. I don't think I'll have a great idea until I can just...drive in a straight line for a while. I also don't quite no how low a voltage I can hit due to sag. The car seems to use much less energy towards the high end of a charge than the low. I don't have a great idea about it yet.

My plan for the batteries is to put in as many in as I can stand...These cars _were_ designed with two rear passengers in mind, but my weight distribution is different, so I don't fully understand the implications yet. Maybe some red dot or Smootha-Ride cones up front, and stiffer yellow-dot cones in the rear? I'm tempted to reinforce the body and install coilovers for adjustability, but that raises a _fervor_ on the UK Mini forums...At the very least, the area right behind the seats is really only 2/3 towards the rear, and everything is between the axles.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Shit. When I swapped the 13.5" axles out, I should have pulled the boot and just...looked at where the tripod bearings were in the housing. OH WELL


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

That's great info thanks, I'm currently looking at battery location, after watching some vids on the Swind e mini you can see they have raised the rear seat and tunnel so I'm looking at modding these areas to squeeze some batteries in. Would you mind confirming the size of each module for me please? I want to take into account the joining plates too. I'm sure I can get 6 in the tunnel space but would like to squeeze 9 in if I can.

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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

With regard to range, I'm getting 6-8mi/kWh (~60-80mi in reality), but average speed is something like 20-30mph. Low speeds, but lots of full-throttle and steep hills and what not. It might very well be half that at 75mph. I don't think I'll have a great idea until I can just...drive in a straight line for a while. I also don't quite no how low a voltage I can hit due to sag. The car seems to use much less energy towards the high end of a charge than the low. I don't have a great idea about it yet. (Sorry,this should have been quoted)

I have an i3 and the efficiency definitely decreases in line with charge, I seem to be able to go to the next town from 100 to 95 percent but not the return when on about 10 percent.
Just think of a cordless drill slowing down as the battery dies.

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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

This post has some to-scale configurations I was thinking about:









Nissan Leaf into Rover Mini...🤞


I got in touch with the person who made this Mini conversion and he says the car does ~70mph with a range of ~60mi with plenty of torque. According to the photos, that's with 17 modules, which would be ~128V nominal. But the update is Edit: Yep, it seems they're running 29 modules for around...




www.diyelectriccar.com





Leaf module dimensions are easily found. They may differ slightly from year to year.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Some progress on these batteries. With the car as it sat, the corner weights were as follows (in pounds):

425 470
380 325
Front 895 (56%)
Rear 705 (44%)
Total 1,600

Better than I expected, really—not much more than stock, with better distribution. Adding the remaining 18 modules would add another 150lb, and even if they were added directly over the rear axle, I'd still be at 51/49, with a rear weight roughly equivalent to two adult passengers, which the car was (somewhat) designed for. I don't have final weights yet, but I expect that probably only 50-100 of the 200 or so added will be on the rear, as most of the weight will be about a 1/3 of the way forward to the front axles. I figure I'll just put all 48 modules in there and see where I land!

After staring at numerous layouts in Sketchup (and even building a frame for one), I settled on a fairly simple set of stacks bolted through the floor (which required cutting out the shelf for the rear seat). The six modules in the rear seem like maybe they aren't worth the extra hassle, weight, and clearance issues, but...I've done the work, so I'm gonna see what everything weighs before changing much.










Despite measuring everything three times and doing 3D mockups...the real world is analog and messy, and I lost count of how many times I've pulled batteries in and out of place...Best-guess fabrication, corrected by doing it again and again...The plates are 1/8" 6061 aluminum and the rods are 1/4" stainless steel.

The seat doesn't have enough room behind it for my likes...It would be nice to have the option of moving the seat back further in the future, and I do still plan to cover all these things in a nice interior-looking box of some kind...
There might be room for more modules under the seat, but I'd have to modify the hold-down bracket, and up front they kinda hit my ankles a bit...I'm just a bit worn out and I want the car back on the road.

The batteries are bolted tight, and they don't move at all when I try and shove them out of place.


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

Wow! 
That's a LOT of batteries!!!
How the hell do they get the batteries in a Swind e mini and still have space?
I must admit to having doubts about using a Leaf because of the shape of the batteries, I'm going to do some cardboard mock ups of i3 and Zoe batteries to see if they fit in easier

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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I believe Swindon either removes the transmission tunnel or puts modules on top, in a kind of T formation (with the top of the T being under the rear seats). I believe they make the seats narrower or shift them as well.


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

That's what I'm looking at doing, still think the Zoe modules will be a better fit but hope to find out soon 

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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> I believe Swindon either removes the transmission tunnel or puts modules on top, in a kind of T formation (with the top of the T being under the rear seats). I believe they make the seats narrower or shift them as well.


Anyone willing to change the floor of the vehicle that much might consider making it fit a Chevrolet Volt pack, in its complete original form. In the Volt the lateral part runs under the front part of the rear seats, and the rest runs up the tunnel. For a two-seater (not stock Mini configuration), the lateral part could be immediately behind the seats, leaving the rest running up to under the dash. You need to be willing to tolerate very narrow seats if you do this in as narrow a car as a Mini.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

As Tremelune has pointed out the Swind-E mini has a complete new floor / exhaust tunnel to accommodate a T shape battery pack which spans from the front bulkhead to the rear heelboard. 
Trouble is with this option is you are modifying the chassis which is an instant IVA in the UK, if you are willing to take the risk and the cost of doing it then fair play. 

With all the conversions ive seen so far, its either lose the rear seat or the boot to get the batteries in. 
I think we are still a few years off having anything small and power dense enough to not go with this option?


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## vinnymagic (Sep 14, 2020)

This is one helluva thread and build, amazing work from scratch! 
So now oyu've got the full 48(?) modules in, whats your weight distribution like?


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

pickmeup said:


> As Tremelune has pointed out the Swind-E mini has a complete new floor / exhaust tunnel to accommodate a T shape battery pack which spans from the front bulkhead to the rear heelboard.
> Trouble is with this option is you are modifying the chassis which is an instant IVA in the UK, if you are willing to take the risk and the cost of doing it then fair play.
> 
> With all the conversions ive seen so far, its either lose the rear seat or the boot to get the batteries in.
> I think we are still a few years off having anything small and power dense enough to not go with this option?


Good to know, thanks

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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Well that didn't work out. It seems I did not take BMS and HV wiring into account enough when designing the battery pack...I had great weight distribution (though unmeasured) and a low center of gravity, but I also spent painstaking hours putting it together, in order to avoid electrocution and fires. Even so, the clearances were just too tight and the wiring too messy to be certain about. Sparks flew on several occasions, and (despite testing before plugging the BMS wires in), I think I fried a circuit or two, and I managed to weld my contactors closed at some point, though I never really figured out how.

I took everything out. Back to the drawing board. It was...painful.

I would have had a much greater chance of success had I kept the BMS wiring in the Nissan harnesses and modified them to fit instead of rolling my own...I thought it would be easier, but alas! I then decided that doing it in the car would be less effort than mocking it up inside first, and then transporting everything...There was some logic there: the Mini is tight tight, and the only way to be sure is to do it in the real space...Unfortunately, it was _very_ hot that week, and I got lazy and impatient, and it shows. Just need to source some long Leaf busbars...

This time around I can do all the design and wiring inside. I'm leaning towards much greater simplicity with this next iteration, as well as way more room to move the seat and build a sort of platform/enclosure. The modules under the seat just weren't worth it, especially considering that the charger and an audio amp will fit there nicely.

I'm gonna aim for 44 modules (370lb), and if it seems too tall, go for 36 (300lb). The colored circles are BMS groups (Thunderstruck divides them into 12-cell groups, and they shouldn't span a fuse or disconnect).


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

Good luck, watching with interest.
I hope you get it all sorted without too many more problems.

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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

Have you seen that?


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

Keep at it! Those setbacks are tough but I'm cheering you on.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks, y'all!

I like that battery box, but I wonder what's underneath.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I've been driving around mountains, hills, and city roads, and early estimate for my 22kWh, 44-module pack is about 60-80mi. I feel like I can squeeze 100 if I fill the tires and drive super conservatively and smoothly...and it also seems possible to drain the batteries in 40mi if I act a fool. I doubt my sticky tires and dubious alignment are helping with range...There's also no real telling the condition of my Leaf batteries...It might only be a usable 15kWh for all I know, but the cells seem healthy and balanced (besides a few outliers that are 20mV down from average).

With the extra modules, the car is noticeably faster. It would spin the tires before, but now it'll do it at 30mph. It maintains its _oomph_ all the way to 60mph. Torque-steer has reared its head, but I'm hoping an alignment will mitigate it.

Current corner weights (in pounds) are:
445 480
345 380

Front 925 (56%)
Rear 725 (44%)
Total 1,650

I'm not sure how to square that math up with my 30-module version that was 1,600lb, but I measured twice and made sure the thing was centered and rolled onto the pads. Overall, quite a bit lighter than I had expected, considering stock was 1,575lb 64/36. Maybe the rear seat, tray, and carpets weighted 100lb...I hope it's okay that the car is 70lb heavier on the right side than the left (220lb with driver). It handles well, though the suspension is still soft steel coil springs and the alignment is way out of whack.

I'm still waiting on California to tell me how to smog this thing, and I dunno if I'll spend too much more time and money until it's fully legal.


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

This is awesome. Congrats.

Do you have a list of components in an easily sharable format? I'm still kicking around the idea of a Leaf donor project and debating using all the leaf components to try to keep the charger etc or going your route of some aftermarket parts.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

The more OEM stuff you can use the better. It's just waaay cheaper than aftermarket stuff. The big downside with OEM stuff is that it's gotta be hacked to some degree. The leaf charger and DC/DC are big and heavy, too. I think this list about covers the big drive and charge components:

Leaf motor, gearbox, and axle stubs
Leaf inverter
Leaf battery pack
Leaf bus bars and BMS connectors
Leaf contactors and precharge relay
Leaf service disconnect and fuse
Thunderstruck VCU
Thunderstruck TSM2500 charger
Thunderstruck EVCC
Thunderstruck BMSC and three satellites
Thunderstruck current sensor
Thunderstruck Dilithium Display
Delphi 2.2kW DC/DC converter
Prius throttle pedal
Prius coolant pump
Prius inverter radiator

I think it was like $6k for the Leaf and almost as much again for everything else.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Oh, building from scratch sounds excessive. My thought was to just cut out and reinforce the stock subframe. The motor will fit without tooo much trimming. My subframe was $2k, took months to get to me, and I still had to cut and weld. Next time I'll at least give the stock subframe a whirl first, I just didn't have faith in my fab skills at the time.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

Tremelune said:


> Oh, building from scratch sounds excessive....


If you're responding to post #208 from the "bhaibinod480" account, that's just spam by a bot which copied some of the text from my post #5 to this thread (Mar 31, 2019).

But yes, the stock subframe is certainly worth considering. Aftermarket subframes typically have the advantage of tubular construction which might be easier to work with, but it's hard to see that being worth $2,000 in this case.


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## McGeesCustomMinis (Oct 26, 2020)

brian_ said:


> If you're responding to post #208 from the "bhaibinod480" account, that's just spam by a bot which copied some of the text from my post #5 to this thread (Mar 31, 2019).
> 
> But yes, the stock subframe is certainly worth considering. Aftermarket subframes typically have the advantage of tubular construction which might be easier to work with, but it's hard to see that being worth $2,000 in this case.


What would it be worth Brian? Basically to have hybrid shafts already sorted to work with 7.5 or 8.4 disc, trans mount, motor mount, rear mount, all stock suspension geometry retained? I'm developing one now... 🙃


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

McGeesCustomMinis said:


> What would it be worth Brian? Basically to have hybrid shafts already sorted to work with 7.5 or 8.4 disc, trans mount, motor mount, rear mount, all stock suspension geometry retained? I'm developing one now... 🙃


All that - not just the frame - would certainly be worth several thousand dollars to someone wanting a Mini conversion who can afford it!  Of course, most DIY builders are saving every possible dime.

For context, many people have paid US$50K to have a $10K Chevy engine, plus matching transmission and diff, installed in their Miatas. Most of the value is in a specific subframe and a pile of worked-out details.

I can't afford any of these packages...


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I feel like I should update this thread, but there's not much to report! I've put maybe a thousand miles on this thing, and there haven't been many surprises. I'm still waiting on legalization from California before I try Vermont et al, so I'm not putting time/money into the suspension and interior (which definitely need attention). I still need to finish my subframe and adapters, as they still need some clearancing and are starting to rust.

I'm seeing about ~5mi/kWh in the real world, with the pack seeming to have a usable 15kWh from the "22kWh" pack. This translates to a solid 60-80mi of range, depending on how the car is driven.

The battery, motor, and inverter stayed cool enough through the summer. I think the highest temp I saw was 120°F on the motor. The batteries feel cold to the touch unless I'm driving below 3.7V. Two of my battery modules are weak, but seem fine if I go easy on the throttle below maybe 20%. I'm treating 0-100% as 3.6-4.1V. I usually have the car charged to 60%, or 80% if I know I'm going somewhere, or 100% if I know I'm about to immediately go somewhere that tests my range.

Top speed is maybe 65mph due to gearing. 10" Mini tires are maybe 19.5" in diameter, while 12" Mini tires are a hair over 20". Not a huge gain there, and the 10" tires have noticeably better ride quality, and every little bit helps on this tiny-travel suspension. There isn't much I can do about that.

Cheap heated seat covers are doing the job for the brutal LA winters so far, so hopefully that's all I'll need on the heating front. Air conditioning is still on my mind, but less so at the moment...

It's super fun scooting around the city, and it's a very sticky car in the hills. The only hiccups have been a blown fuse and one or two times when the computer couldn't detect the throttle voltage when I first turned the key.


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## gotham (May 26, 2019)

Tremelune said:


> I'm seeing about ~5mi/kWh in the real world


Mileage seems very good. Congrats.


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## pickmeup (May 8, 2018)

great update, especially with the real world range that you have stated. Have you seen much difference in the range with the colder weather?


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## schelle63 (Jan 3, 2018)

Great news!

To me (in Germany) it is really strange to understand that you do a thousand miles prior to have the car legalized. Where I live, this is an impossible thing.


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## KiwiPete (Aug 2, 2019)

Thanks for the update. This project is one of the major inspirations for my Citroen project, so I'm glad to see its still performing.


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## scottherrington (Jul 3, 2020)

I can only repeat what Kiwipete has said, your build and the amount of info you have put out there will prove invaluable for future builds, thank you

Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using Tapatalk


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## schelle63 (Jan 3, 2018)

A friend just sent me this:








How is your car? Still in the road?
Markus


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Car is good! It's more or less my daily driver for city stuff around Los Angeles. I finally got the stupid thing registered, but it's through my LCC in Montana. Unbelievable, but hey...the law's written the way it is, and nobody's gonna change it.

A few things off the top of my head:

- Winter range is about the same, 'cause it doesn't often go below 40°F in Southern California. Heated seats have no appreciable impact.

- On a very hot day, I took it up a mountain. The inverter temperature got near 150°F (which is the max that my clear coolant tubing can handle). It was pretty constant power around ~50mph. That's the only time it's ever gotten that hot, and if this was something I did regularly I'd want more than the Prius inverter cooler up front. Temps have been fine otherwise, rarely exceeding 120°F.

- It doesn't sound or feel particularly happy at 10k RPM on the highway, but it might just be that it's a very loud car with no interior at the moment.

- I ditched my cheapo 12V battery and am using an Odyssey PC680. The cheapo one just...died one day, and I couldn't "jump start" the DC/DC converter with it. It no longer holds a charge. The PC680 is way overkill, but at least it's designed to be in a car.

That...That might be it. So far the car has been great. 0-60 is heavily limited by traction, but the car is quite swift regardless. Torque-stear is still present even after alignment, but it's fairly mild for the power the car is putting down from a stop. The ride is decently smooth with steel coil springs and a set of Pro Tech shocks, but it bottoms out hard on certain bumps. I have a set of MiniSpares EVO rubber cones to put on all four corners. My bare steel subframe is rusting, so I want to take everything out and finish that bit before I mess with the springs.

I have other projects going that keep taking precedence...and I also kinda don't want to take it off the road for a long time because then I'd have to drive in LA traffic with a clutch pedal and it's less fun...


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## schelle63 (Jan 3, 2018)

Thank You!
It is important (to me) to read about the experiences after conversion is done, to learn what can be improved.
And good to see another daily running EV.
Markus


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## Oregonian (Aug 6, 2018)

Did you happen to measure the wall thickness of the leaf axle after you cut it?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

It was solid where cut.


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## Oregonian (Aug 6, 2018)

Oh nice, Do you know if it’s solid through the whole tube?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm afraid I do not.


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## Oregonian (Aug 6, 2018)

No worries, do you know what your motor rpm is at 65 or 70 mph?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Yep, 10,000!


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## Oregonian (Aug 6, 2018)

Oh jeez, so about the limit.


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

Yep. If you want to go much faster than ~65, you'll either need to keep a gearbox or find a very specific tire that I doubt exists...


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## Oregonian (Aug 6, 2018)

What size tire are you running?


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

I've run tires in 165/70-10 (19" diameter) and 165/60-12 (20" diameter) and the gearing is largely the same...I think you'd really have to go big for a significantly higher top speed.


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

You're just not going fast enough - variable ratio:


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## CodyH18 (8 mo ago)

remy_martian said:


> You're just not going fast enough - variable ratio:


What? I can't play this video, I get the message "_The person who uploaded this video doesn't allow to be available in your country_"


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## Tremelune (Dec 8, 2009)

It's a drag racing video.

I could probably take that car to 40mph, but I'd have to do it backwards for traction!


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## remy_martian (Feb 4, 2019)

The video shows the drag slicks growing as the car goes up in speed, dynamically changing the final drive ratio.

It's clear that Google (Youtube) thinks Canucks would be dangerous knowing such things, but I can't think of any way to grow the runners on a dogsled.


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