# [EVDL] a hub motor tutorial, pleas



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power 
to be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade. 
With my brushed DC experience, I thought it might be possible to go 
from 24v to 36v to get 50% more power. The bicycle guy has told me no, 
the 250watt motor will put out only 250 watts worth of power whether 
with 24 or 36 volts input. Since this guy confuses current with 
voltage and watt-hours with watts, he has low credibility.

So, I ask here what upgrade paths I might have with a typical 24v hub 
motor bicycle.

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 22 hours 20 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie, I built me a powerchair a couple yrs back, I used a 24vdc rearend 
($50) from a power scrubber, I usd a 36vdc YK43 controller ($36) and 3 
hawker 34ah 12vdc batteries (free) .. it runs fine on 36vdc .. I ran it for 
2 1/2 days at a flee market about a month ago and no heating of the motor 
and had a 65 % SOC when I losded it back up to come home, so I would say run 
it on 36vdc watch the motor heat and go 4 it

Jerry NW Ohio
ETC...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:32 AM
Subject: [EVDL] a hub motor tutorial, pleas


>I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power
> to be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade.
> With my brushed DC experience, I thought it might be possible to go
> from 24v to 36v to get 50% more power. The bicycle guy has told me no,
> the 250watt motor will put out only 250 watts worth of power whether
> with 24 or 36 volts input. Since this guy confuses current with
> voltage and watt-hours with watts, he has low credibility.
>
> So, I ask here what upgrade paths I might have with a typical 24v hub
> motor bicycle.
>
> -- 
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 22 hours 20 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
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> 


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power
> > to be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I rode a 500W Trek e-bike last year by BionX, and it was OK, but sort of
underwhelming. So, I got a Crystalyte high speed motor from Grin
Technologies and converted my commuter bike last year and love it. It can
be run on 24, 36 or 48 volts; at 48v it can put out 1000W and will go
30-35mph on the flats. I guess that the 250W motor could run at 36v and
give you some more speed, but probably the heat and or back EMF on that size
motor will not get you much more power. 

I highly recommend the website: www.ebikes.ca which has some good comparison
tools and a really awesome hub motor simulator. There's also loads of
information on the basic hub motors available and even some "tutorial" types
of information. 

Dan

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/a-hub-motor-tutorial-pleas-tp4351039p4352349.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You should be aware of the local regulations before you up the wattage
on an e-Bike.

Here (Ontario, Canada) e-bikes are regulated to be maximum 500W only,
anything more makes it a motorcycle with all of the regulation that entails.



> On 12-02-02 01:24 PM, Danpatgal wrote:
> > I rode a 500W Trek e-bike last year by BionX, and it was OK, but sort of
> > underwhelming. So, I got a Crystalyte high speed motor from Grin
> > Technologies and converted my commuter bike last year and love it. It can
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie,
I also bought a nice (12yo unused) e-Bike that has 24V motor
and I plan to upgrade the controller but keep the current
limit (about 20A) so that by itself the bike does not run
that much faster, but will deliver assist to higher speeds.

Endless Sphere has a forum with a lot of e-bike discussion
and experience.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] a hub motor tutorial, pleas

I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power to
be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade. 
With my brushed DC experience, I thought it might be possible to go from
24v to 36v to get 50% more power. The bicycle guy has told me no, the
250watt motor will put out only 250 watts worth of power whether with 24
or 36 volts input. Since this guy confuses current with voltage and
watt-hours with watts, he has low credibility.

So, I ask here what upgrade paths I might have with a typical 24v hub
motor bicycle.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 22 hours 20 minutes

_______________________________________________
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am always disappointed to see so many E-bikes with 250 watt motors: the
whole purpose of E-bikes is to climb hills and 250 watts is nowhere near
enough, and such low power E-bikes are going to give E-bikes a bad rep.

I have a BIONx 350 watt motor which climbs hills very well, but that is
because I have small 20 inch wheels which give me 30% more torque. I
believe that 500 watts is the minimum for a standard 26 inch wheel hub
motor top climb hills.

Now BIONx does make a 500 watt motor but it is a LOW TORQUE motor designed
for speed! How insane is that, an E-bike that can exceed the legal speed
limits but cannot climb hills -- what were they thinking?

-- Larry Gales





> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power
> > to be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Larry Gales wrote:
> > I am always disappointed to see so many E-bikes with 250 watt motors: the
> > whole purpose of E-bikes is to climb hills and 250 watts is nowhere near
> > enough, and such low power E-bikes are going to give E-bikes a bad rep.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I also have two E-bikes: the 20 inch wheel BIONx 350 watt brush less, gear
less motor, and an R-Martin with 26 inch wheels, and a 350 watt motor that
dirves the chain wheel and so uses the 7 gears of the bicycle.

And yes, the R-Martin 26 inch wheel bike can climb steep hills, but is MUCH
slower than the 20 inch wheel BIONx E-bike (in fact, half as fast: the 350
watt BIONx 20 inch wheel bike does 10-12 mph up a 10% grade, compared with
5-6 mph for the R-martin).

I know that motors can be run at higher power than their nominal rating,
but doesn't that risk burning out the motor?

-- Larry Gales



> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Larry Gales wrote:
> > > I am always disappointed to see so many E-bikes with 250 watt motors: the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's my ebike... 4000W

https://sites.google.com/site/emderived/home/ebike



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am always disappointed to see so many E-bikes with 250 watt motors: the
> > whole purpose of E-bikes is to climb hills and 250 watts is nowhere near
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

That's a really cool bike. Do you have any more information, I didn't see it 
listed in the evalbum.
In particular, I wanted to know system voltage, motor control, battery type, 
motor etc.
Thanks,
Rod


----- Original Message ----
From: martin emde <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, February 3, 2012 3:54:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] a hub motor tutorial, pleas

Here's my ebike... 4000W

https://sites.google.com/site/emderived/home/ebike



> Larry Gales <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I am always disappointed to see so many E-bikes with 250 watt motors: the
> > whole purpose of E-bikes is to climb hills and 250 watts is nowhere near
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

FWIW, my scooter has a Headline brand (Taiwan) 250 watt rated BLDC motor. 
According to the Watt's Up meter, it peaks out at around 530 watts. 

My Eeze Quando Ebike also has a 250 watt rated hub motor. I haven't yet 
measured its peak power, but some people might call it underpowered, 
depending on how you want to ride a bike. It does fine on the flat, but 
doesn't like to climb moderate hills without light pedaling. 

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Most of the details can be found on my thread at endless-sphere. There you
will find some really impressive e-bike projects done by the members of the
forum.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29531

Martin




> Rod Hower <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > That's a really cool bike. Do you have any more information, I didn't see
> > it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie,

I have a Kollmorgen 24 volt motor with internal controller on a bicycle
that I run at 36 volts. It runs fine except when I hook up the battery
it is best to first energize through a small 12 volt light bulb to
pre-charge the controller, then hook up direct, or you get a large
spark. The 36 volt DeWalt battery that I use has the internal fuse wired
around as it blows the first time you ask for a lot of power.

This morning I hooked up a 24 volt E-zip 400 scooter to a 36 volt DeWalt
battery and it worked fine for a short ride. I do not have a way to make
sure the DeWalt battery does not get under-voltage and stop working
(they do not take a charge if the charger senses low voltage). The set
up really needs two batteries in parallel to give some margin of safety
and range, and a voltmeter.

Two of the smallest Ballistic lithium batteries in series at 24 volts is
not enough capacity or range, but I may add more at 24 or 36 volts to
see what it will do for the E-zip 400. Ballistic lists the smallest
battery at 4 Pb-eq/Ah which I am having trouble digesting, but just now
I think it means lead equivalent, and 4 amp hours is not enough. I think
the lead acid batteries that I removed are 2 at 12 volts each 10 amp
hours. So I need 6 of the 12 volt 4 amp hour Ballistic batteries to make
24 volt at 12 amp hour. That makes sense as the battery compartment will
hold six of the tiny batteries. I should have purchased two larger
batteries except these were for another project. EVO2 50 is the
Ballistic part number. There is a small cap on the top of the battery
that has numerous small contacts under it. I should experiment, but I
think you could sense the voltage of each of the 4 internal cells to see
what the battery is doing, and perhaps a balancing module can be added
or is available???

Cheers,

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] a hub motor tutorial, pleas

I recently bought a 250 watt Prodeco bicycle and have found the power to
be inadequate. I've been talking to the supplier about an upgrade. 
With my brushed DC experience, I thought it might be possible to go from
24v to 36v to get 50% more power. The bicycle guy has told me no, the
250watt motor will put out only 250 watts worth of power whether with 24
or 36 volts input. Since this guy confuses current with voltage and
watt-hours with watts, he has low credibility.

So, I ask here what upgrade paths I might have with a typical 24v hub
motor bicycle.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 7 days 22 hours 20 minutes

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