# [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > Until now, I've been mostly limiting my EV driving to surface roads. But recently, I've started using I-15 and I-80 for my daily commute. This is the first time that I regret going clutchless in the EV. The reason is that the Interstates are pretty hilly here. When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of highway.
> 
> WOW! What is you motor speed at 65mph in 3rd?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I calculate 5800 rpm in 3rd. It's an ADC 8-inch motor, and the specs I've seen say 8000 rpm red line and 6000 max continuous. Would 4th be better on the highway anyway?

Bill 

----- Original Message -----
From: Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:26:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate



> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > Until now, I've been mostly limiting my EV driving to surface roads. But recently, I've started using I-15 and I-80 for my daily commute. This is the first time that I regret going clutchless in the EV. The reason is that the Interstates are pretty hilly here. When the road is flat, I can easily maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear. But when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of highway.
> 
> WOW! What is you motor speed at 65mph in 3rd?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

WILLIAM DENNIS Owner wrote
> 
> when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by
> shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to
> downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a
> bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of
> highway.
> 
Do you already have forced air cooling? If not, you could add that then
just leave it in 4th. You would probably be closer to your motor's more
efficient band that way anyway.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-World-EV-Experiences-tp4656036p4656116.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Voltswagon <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:18:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate


WILLIAM DENNIS Owner wrote
> 
> when I have to climb a hill, the only way to keep up to speed is by
> shifting to 4th. Then when the road turns flat again, I'd like to
> downshift back to third to keep the motor rpms high for cooling. It's a
> bit of a pain to have to do this 3 or 4 times in a 7-mile stretch of
> highway.
> 
Do you already have forced air cooling? If not, you could add that then
just leave it in 4th. You would probably be closer to your motor's more
efficient band that way anyway.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-World-EV-Experiences-tp4656036p4656116.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 [email protected] said:
>It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
>

I'm trying to understand this.
In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM and increase current draw?
That seems backwards.


--

Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yes, there was some discussion about this on the list recently. In 3rd gear, at the higher RPM, there isn't enough torque to maintain 65 mph. By shifting to 4th, rpms decrease, which increases amperage. Now there is enough torque to get up the hill. 

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:30:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 [email protected] said:
>It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
>

I'm trying to understand this.
In order to maintain the same speed up a hill, you shift up to reduce RPM and increase current draw?
That seems backwards.


--

Try my Sensible Email package! https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Though I had a clutch, I have experienced what Bill stated (shifting up
to a higher gear to maintain speed). 

When I originally got my S-10 Blazer back from the converter, its
differential was the highest gear ratio type (its what was on the donor
vehicle from the Auto Dismantler - one donor made out of 5 vehicles).
When I wanted more torque to say, climb a steep grade, shifting-up did
the trick. 

But where I am at in CA, I found it less useful to have this high
differential ratio, so I paid to have the differential swapped out for a
the second to the lowest ratio one (the S-10 has 4 different ratios to
choose from). Afterward, though I could no longer wind-up and cruise on
the highway at 85 to 90 mph, I now had a much better handle on climbing
steep mountain grades in the low gears. 

After the differential change my top speed wound up at 75mph, but my 1st
gear was super low for climbing China Grade in the Santa Cruz mountains
(see the video link below, 2:00 it begins, 3:00 it gets tighter, and at
6:00 is when it is most hairy). Or if a show/EVent coordinator wanted me
to position my EV up on a steep lawn hump/hill for display [ 
http://blog.illumind.com/wp-content/gallery/paris/butteschamont-hillkids-custom.jpg
].

That lower geared differential is what I would recommend to S-10 donors
if you, like me, want to cruise at 55mph to minimize the
wind-pusher/amount-of-aerodynamic-drag a S-10 has. If I had to I could
wind up to higher speeds, but I preferred to let the good nedra.com folk
do the fast/performance EV driving (my EV was more of a rolling
test-bench/lead-sled).


{Informational links:
China Grade Road
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sherwoodh/3410276299/
http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/santacruzmtns.htm
http://www.trek4fun.com/trails/big%20basin%20gazos%20creek%20butano.htm

[video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qCed8MVs_tY
China Grade Road
daflyinpig on Oct 8, 2010
This is my first excursion on China Grade Road on my sportbike.
If you want to work your suspension, this is the road to do it on!
]

I-80 & I-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80#Utah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_Utah
}


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 [email protected] said:
> > >It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis 1231C under 200 amps. I think its max continuous rating is around 187 amps. The controller has a heat sink already. Next week, I'll try driving the whole trip in 4th and monitor the motor amps to see if they're acceptable.
> > >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Yup, that is why I was happy to find out that my truck has the 4.10
differential ratio (4.1 rotations of the driveshaft to get 1
rotation of both rear wheels) so I can even consider going
direct drive, which would be more difficult with the other
ratios that are lower and give less torque multiplication and
motor speed reduction to the wheels. 

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate

Though I had a clutch, I have experienced what Bill stated (shifting up
to a higher gear to maintain speed). 

When I originally got my S-10 Blazer back from the converter, its
differential was the highest gear ratio type (its what was on the donor
vehicle from the Auto Dismantler - one donor made out of 5 vehicles).
When I wanted more torque to say, climb a steep grade, shifting-up did
the trick. 

But where I am at in CA, I found it less useful to have this high
differential ratio, so I paid to have the differential swapped out for a
the second to the lowest ratio one (the S-10 has 4 different ratios to
choose from). Afterward, though I could no longer wind-up and cruise on
the highway at 85 to 90 mph, I now had a much better handle on climbing
steep mountain grades in the low gears. 

After the differential change my top speed wound up at 75mph, but my 1st
gear was super low for climbing China Grade in the Santa Cruz mountains
(see the video link below, 2:00 it begins, 3:00 it gets tighter, and at
6:00 is when it is most hairy). Or if a show/EVent coordinator wanted me
to position my EV up on a steep lawn hump/hill for display [
http://blog.illumind.com/wp-content/gallery/paris/butteschamont-hillkids
-custom.jpg
].

That lower geared differential is what I would recommend to S-10 donors
if you, like me, want to cruise at 55mph to minimize the
wind-pusher/amount-of-aerodynamic-drag a S-10 has. If I had to I could
wind up to higher speeds, but I preferred to let the good nedra.com folk
do the fast/performance EV driving (my EV was more of a rolling
test-bench/lead-sled).


{Informational links:
China Grade Road
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sherwoodh/3410276299/
http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/santacruzmtns.htm
http://www.trek4fun.com/trails/big%20basin%20gazos%20creek%20butano.htm

[video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qCed8MVs_tY
China Grade Road
daflyinpig on Oct 8, 2010
This is my first excursion on China Grade Road on my sportbike.
If you want to work your suspension, this is the road to do it on!
]

I-80 & I-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80#Utah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_Utah
}


{brucedp.150m.com}


-


> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Thu Jun 28 08:13:03 PDT 2012 [email protected] said:
> > >It's also a balancing act with the controller. I think I will indeed
> add forced air cooling to the motor soon, but I like to keep the Curtis
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 6/28/2012 11:30 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> I'm trying to understand this. In order to maintain the same speed up
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For decades, the "app" was run by the nut behind the wheel
using fuzzy logic, often simply trying which gives the
desired result and repeating that behavior in similar
circumstances... 


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate




> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > On 6/28/2012 11:30 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> I'm trying to understand this. In order to maintain the same speed up
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The HPEVS AC motors with Curtis AC controllers come with the Curtis
"Spyglass" gauge which reads out things like motor rpm and temperature,
controller temperature, battery voltage... It also has LEDs that light to
indicate regenerative braking, and poor, fair, and good motor efficiency
based on motor slip. 

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Real-World-EV-Experiences-tp4656036p4656179.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| CONFIGURE: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Since battery voltage is (roughly) constant, you get maximum
> >> horsepower at maximum battery current. This occurs at the point
> >> where the controller is 100% on but not in current limit. It will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Made my daily morning drive up a one mile hill to the Hill Top Caf=E9 which=
is =

on top a hill. Long haul truck drivers were talking about how to roller =

coast the hills in what gear ratio and rpm. Again you pick the sweet spot =

of the motor where the maximum torque is at the maximum HP at a certain rpm.

As you going up hill accelerating to the sweet spot in a certain gear, some =

have to hold the accelerator at the same position to maintain the speed, =

while others can back off the accelerator a bit to maintain the same speed =

reducing fuel consumption using the correct overall gear ratios.

Ok, I will try that and see what happens. Knowing that my WarP 11 motor =

develops the maximum torque and HP at 1800 rpm which is about 26 mph. I =

accelerate up to the speed holding the motor at a constant 200 amps and =

battery amps at 75 amps going up hill. When the EV got up to about 25-26 =

mph or 1700-1800 rpm, I let up on the accelerator just a hair and the =

battery ampere drop about 15 amps or about 45 amps at the motor which still =

held the EV at the same speed.

Try the same thing on a level grade with the same results. Starting out in =

a overall gear ratio of 16:1 and as the speed increase to 25 mph at a =

constant 200 motor ampere. The TH-400 transmission varies its gear ratio =

from 16:1 at 1 rpm to 10:1 at 1800 rpm. At 1800 rpm or 25 mph, I could had =

held the accelerator at the same position which would take the motor out of =

the sweet spot display 200 motor amperes, but when I continue to back off t=
o =

get back into the sweet spot, the EV maintain the same speed, the motor =

ampere reduce to about 150 amperes.

Try it, and see if it works for you.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless on the Interstate




> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> Since battery voltage is (roughly) constant, you get maximum
> > >> horsepower at maximum battery current. This occurs at the point
> > >> where the controller is 100% on but not in current limit. It will
> ...


----------

