# Soliton 1 or Junior?



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

I have just finished installing my Kostov 11" 192v motor. 
Adaptor plate, motor/ gearbox drive coupling etc, all went well, would like to put some photos up when I workout how?
Would like some advice as to which controller to use, I've narrowed it down to 3, soliton 1, soliton Junior or Zapi 144v 800 amp.
So will the motor run ok with enough power at 144 volts?
Do I really need soliton 1 with a 1000 amps or is 600 amps more than enough with the soliton Junior?
I am not looking at matching the original performance of the ICE, I would be more than happy with say, small family saloon performance. My priority is respectable range, I plan to use Lithiums when I come to terms with the cost.
I am swayed towards the Junior, mainly due to the extra cost of the soliton 1,
Looking for guidance,HELP.


----------



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

What is your battery pack?

What is your transmission (if you're using one)?

What is your chassis (and how much does it weigh)?


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

you may be disappointed with 144 v, it was Ok, but I'm much happier with 196, would like to go even higher still. From 120v initially, currents went down, motor temps went down, Mucho more power. Haven't seen over 600 MOTOR amps yet, not really sure what battery amps are. I am at about 5900 lbs in a aerodynamic brick shaped US mid sized pickup with FLA batteries.

If price is the only constraint, I'd go junior, otherwise a full blown Sol1 (but be advised I'm kinda biased). Both have too many other features so as to not compare with the Zapi which tops out at a theoretical 150 hp. I say theoretical because I'm not sure how long a Zapi can push 800 amps without cooling issues.

There ARE others out there, perhaps a browse through the controller section might help.


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

somanywelps said:


> What is your battery pack?
> 
> What is your transmission (if you're using one)?
> 
> What is your chassis (and how much does it weigh)?


Battery pack not sourced yet but looking at 144v or 192v lithium with appropriate amp hour.

6 speed Audi transmission manual no clutch hoping to only use 1 or 2 gears

Audi TT Mk 1, converted weight will be close to stock about 1400kg I have removed a total of 350kg.


----------



## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

TTmartin said:


> Battery pack not sourced yet but looking at 144v or 192v lithium with appropriate amp hour.
> 
> 6 speed Audi transmission manual no clutch hoping to only use 1 or 2 gears
> 
> Audi TT Mk 1, converted weight will be close to stock about 1400kg I have removed a total of 350kg.


You're going to want to be near 248V or so because of voltage sag. You will want all 192V available to the motor.

Do you know the torque rating on that transmission? (this affects the controller)

I'm not sure I'd go clutch-less with that much power....


----------



## Guest (Apr 20, 2012)

TTmartin said:


> I have just finished installing my Kostov 11" 192v motor.
> Adaptor plate, motor/ gearbox drive coupling etc, all went well, would like to put some photos up when I workout how?
> Would like some advice as to which controller to use, I've narrowed it down to 3, soliton 1, soliton Junior or Zapi 144v 800 amp.
> So will the motor run ok with enough power at 144 volts?
> ...



First, don't bother with the Zapi. It will cost you as much or more than the Soliton1 and then some and the service just plain sucks. If you live in the area then you may have a chance but don't count on it. It has limited functions and you must pay an extra $500 for the console that will allow you to change the parameters. 

Soliton1 has software to adjust at will for no extra cost. 

As for 144 volts and 600 amps? Well maybe. Usually if you run 144 volts and hit the throttle hard your batteries will sag and you will actually not have a full 144 volts to the motor. What would be good is to have a high voltage system and then only allow a maximum of 144 or so and what ever your amperage you like that the controller can dish out. That way your voltage will be more in line with what you expect and your batteries and controller and you will be happy.

So if your controller will allow you to have a large voltage pack do that and then run your motor within the specs of the motor like at 156 but with a pack voltage of 200 lets say. 

You might be inclined to look into the Synkromotive controller. You will not be disappointed at all if you choose that one. 

Pete 

But what car are you using? You say you have it installed but do not give any information on your vehicle.


----------



## lowcrawler (Jun 27, 2011)

Everyone always screams 'high voltage = more better!' ... but remember, higher voltage also means more cost.

For instance, many fuses are rated at 160V ... so if you ever plan to cross that threshold (ie: if you go with 48 lithium cells like I did) you've got to pay a significant amount more for fuses and other such things that run at pack voltage. Ditto with switches, relays, etc...
Higher voltages are, theoretically, more dangerous... though, really, the difference between 150V and 190V isn't the difference between life and death -- screw up and either will kill you before you know you made a mistake. 
Additionally, more voltage means more cells... more cells means more connections... more connections means more cost, more time, and more points of potential failure or mistakes.

That is not to say you shouldn't go higher voltage if it suits you... it's just there are some 'negatives' to going with a higher voltage pack that people don't talk about.

Now, as to how that relates to the original topic --- Power-wise, I've got a ~153 volt system and the soliton Jr puts out about 120hp (equiv). The cells sag quite a bit under full load (mine are just 100ah cells -- ~15kwh pack) but I don't go around putting my foot to the floor... I use my car to get from point A to point B. 
In my <2000lbs beetle, the Soliton Jr has proven great...more power than I'd ever need for a commuter/freeway car.

That said, you are starting with a slightly heavier car... and likely one that you'll be throwing more money into than I did into mine. (mine still cost me around 18-20k).

So -- if I was in your position I would decide this way:

Figure out what kind of range you want and find some stats on another TT to guestimate your watt-hours/mile. This will let you know your pack size (kwh). 
From that, you can calculate your maximum safe draw while staying under the manufacturers recommended C rates. From that, you can easily figure out if a more powerful control would even be useful... or if it'd just be a waste.

So for me, my bug was going to pull 300wh/mile and I wanted ~30 real mile... that puts me at a 9kwh pack. I live in MN and wanted massive heat (6kw worth) and plenty of buffer so I wouldn't stress things on the cold days... so I sized up to 15kwh. In the space I had, that meant 48 100AH cells.
With my 100Ah CALB cells, I knew I could pull 400Amps (depending on where you get your specs from) for periods of up to 10 seconds without damage... Pulling more, while both being unnecessary, would also be damaging to my cells. So it didn't make sense to get something that would eat more than 600amps.

Whereas if I needed 60 miles of range in a car that got 350wh/mile (my best guess your your TT), I'd have needed a 21kwh pack... add in some buffer and I'm looking at a 30kwh pack. 48 200Ah CALB cells at 150volts now puts you at a 'safe' burst discharge rate at/over/around 1000amps. In that case, I'd be looking at the Soliton 1 more seriously.... as, at least you could use the extra power. (though, for my style of driving, I'd probably still get the jr... but that's a driving style thing)


----------



## TTmartin (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks guys for your input, 
I'm now thinking if I go with the soliton 1 it covers all bases and with the right battery pack the car, a Mk1 Audi TT by the way, can be set by the controller to the drivers preference performance wise.
Looking at the big picture the extra cost will give versatility,
At this point I'm thinking motor/contoller expensive, but battery pack will break the bank! Oh well I still have an EV grin and I've not driven one yet


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I have a question for the Soliton owners regarding max pack voltage.... I read somewhere that the controller can limit the output to motor. Is this true?

What I am considering is lets say I design my next pack with 50 cells (160v nominal), but I don't want to push the motor that high; can I set a Soliton to limit output at something lower like 144v and see less sag from the pack?


----------



## palmer_md (Jul 22, 2011)

dtbaker said:


> I have a question for the Soliton owners regarding max pack voltage.... I read somewhere that the controller can limit the output to motor. Is this true?
> 
> What I am considering is lets say I design my next pack with 50 cells (160v nominal), but I don't want to push the motor that high; can I set a Soliton to limit output at something lower like 144v and see less sag from the pack?



yes, but limiting voltage will not reduce the sag. If you want to reduce the sag you will have to reduce the current. That said, by raising the voltage you can get more power to the motor. For example your batteries sag about 20% when the controller is at maximum current. Your 144v pack will then be at 115v, but the 160v pack is only down to 128v. If you really want to limit motor voltage to 144v then any pack over 172v will allow you have maximum voltage applied to the motor even at full throttle.


----------



## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

actually I believe that the sag will lessen somewhat since to pull the required WATTs out of the pack, battery currents will go down while motor watts will increase until motor saturation. say for 100 hp you need 400 amps, but if you increase battery voltage 3X, Ohm's law says current has to decrease to 1/3 or about 133 amps. Of course battery ripple will go way up, but that is a different matter. that's what I've seen on my packs.

OTOH you'll want to hammer the throttle more.......


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

If you are running an 11 inch motor I would certainly choose the larger Soliton 1. Well, either that or a Zilla Z1k-HV. They are both good, programable controllers. 

I certainly wouldn't limit myself to just 600 motor amps with all that copper offering all that potential. I stuff 900 amps into my little 7 inch Prestolite at times.


----------



## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

palmer_md said:


> yes, but limiting voltage will not reduce the sag. If you want to reduce the sag you will have to reduce the current. That said, by raising the voltage you can get more power to the motor. For example your batteries sag about 20% when the controller is at maximum current. Your 144v pack will then be at 115v, but the 160v pack is only down to 128v. If you really want to limit motor voltage to 144v then any pack over 172v will allow you have maximum voltage applied to the motor even at full throttle.


Also, as battery charge maximum available voltage drops. By using a pack with the maximum allowable input voltage, you retain the ability to output the maximum output voltage (in case of an emergency) closer to the point of pack depletion.


----------

